# sight levelers



## J-Bow (Mar 12, 2005)

Does anyone else feel like when they use their leveler on their sights that the bow looks or feels tilted too much...almost likes its unlevel....i get that feeling ...just want to know if its a natural thing or if there could potentially be a problem


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## KIT-HAN-NE Flinger (Jan 5, 2005)

Yep had that same senerio with my huntermag.I removed my grip and it held perfectly level! I also have a razormag where the handle is the riser w/sideplates I had a slight problem with it also removed the side plates and it holds great! Different things help different folks and those worked for me!


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## J-Bow (Mar 12, 2005)

I took the grip off and went with the no grip approach....it still feels like it and when i go with level i have a horrible shot....does anyone know what the bottom screw on the cj dead nuts is used for


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## P.L. Archery (Apr 14, 2005)

Put a level against the limb pockets of your bow and make sure both the sight bubble and the carpenters level bubble are centered at the same time.
If they are, then ALWAYS center the sight bubble before you shoot. Your pins should be perfectly straight and paralell with your string when set up properly. Also make sure your elbow isn't locked. The crotch of your elbow should be pointing slightly down, and never up.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject.*

Hello

He$$ i was going to keep quiet here .But thats not poss-able :tongue: 

This is the way some of us in my neck of the woods handle it.

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First off i have a sight that can be adjusted for the scope movement tobe level.

Come to a natural relax full draw.

Now if the bow is slightly canted at this time .So be it.

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If i halft to do this level adjustment by my self.I use a degree finder on the side of my bow.And when at full relax draw .I read the degree of the cant that the bow is .As iam holding at a relax draw to my anchor.

I put the bow on the bench mounted to my stablelizer hole .Rotate the bow to the degree i observed while at full draw.

Lock the bow in at that degree.And rotate my scope till the bubble is now level with my degree of cant.

Re draw the bow and check the level and see if rhe bubble is now level with my natural cant.

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Now after being satisfied it is.

Then each time i draw the bow i go with my bubble even th-ow the bow is at a slight cant.

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This cuts down on hand tork trying to center the bubble in a strain manner.

Its the same as coiling a spring a spring will fly back to its natural state.
So the same applies to your bow hand, if you halft to put pressure on your bow hand and wrist to move the bubble to the center in a strain manner.

And less left and right hits.

Unk :tongue:


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

The first thing you need to do after installing your scope to your sight is to level it (perfectly 90 degrees) to the sight dovetail. Not the extension but the slide that the apperature moves up and down on for setting your distance. Now as you move the sight up and down the dovetail slide to set your sight setting it will be moving perfectly up and down. (If you fail this step, you scope will be moving slightly in the windage direction as you it move up and down). Once leveling is done, you adjust the entire sight head to set up your natural cant. Now you wil be standing comfortably and your shots should be down the middle at any distance providing you keep an eye on your bubble and keep it centered during the shot sequence.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*



ktrazz said:


> The first thing you need to do after installing your scope to your sight is to level it (perfectly 90 degrees) to the sight dovetail. Not the extension but the slide that the apperature moves up and down on for setting your distance. Now as you move the sight up and down the dovetail slide to set your sight setting it will be moving perfectly up and down. (If you fail this step, you scope will be moving slightly in the windage direction as you it move up and down). Once leveling is done, you adjust the entire sight head to set up your natural cant. Now you wil be standing comfortably and your shots should be down the middle at any distance providing you keep an eye on your bubble and keep it centered during the shot sequence.


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Your so right . :smile: I got a head of my thinking .Since i mosley shoot in doors.

But there are so many archers , that level the level .With the bow up and down in a level state.and atached to the bench .

Then when the bow is held in a natural draw and anchor.They go for the level to make it level before the shot. And there is to much twist in the bow hand wrist. 


Unk :smile:


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## Todzilla (Feb 27, 2005)

J-bow check spot-hogg.com to set 3rd axis leveling . They have a good explination to assist you in setting 3rd axis. I believe this will explain to you the ansewer your looking for. good luck


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

Once you get the sight leveled in both axis planes you are ready to adjust you cant. The best way I've found to do this is to draw your bow back with your eyes closed and come to a full and comfortable anchor. Now open your eyes and you will see how far off your cant is by viewing your bubble. Adjust the entire head of your sight (keeping the realaitonship of you scope and slide the same) until the bubble is level when you open your eyes. You will notice that you are no longer pushing the bow one way or the other trying to keep level. However, your sight is perfectly level with your sight slide. Now move your sight in or out to set windage and set your elevation for your target. You will find that you should be on left and right all the way out to your longest yardage.


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## Rebel Rider (May 20, 2005)

I gotta say different things help different people. I put a sight with a level on my Alpine and I couldn't see the level and the pin at the same time through the peep. I felt like I could never keep the bow level. But I just bought a brand new Darton and had the exact same kind of sight put on. I shot it a few times to get the feel of it and it was great. I said never mind the peep I love it the way it is. I could hit a dime from 20 yds. So if you're shooting with a peep then trying to shoot without it might be an idea. Just make sure your kisser is just where you want it. Now all you gotta do is draw the kisser to the corner of your mouth and center the bubble in the level and release. If you decide to try it I hope it works for you. Good Luck!


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

My attempt to show graphically.....


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## J-Bow (Mar 12, 2005)

I emailed CJ and this was there response.....

To set the level, loosen the 2 vertical adjustment screws, at this point
the sight head/pin guard will swivel from side to side. Set the bubble
square then lock down the 2 screws.

So it would be best to do this at full draw....right or wrong? or would it be best to check my 90 angle before and then the step above


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## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Half a Bubble off!*

CarbonTerry,

I am impressed! Your sketches are showing exactly what I have been preaching for years. The bow does not have to be vertical and the sight does not have to be aligned with the string. Gravity pulls straight down where I come from!  Unk Bond says it well. If you have to strain to get your level in the middle you will shoot a poor shot. RELAX! If your bubble is not in the middle cant the sight bar like CarbonTerry's sketch.

Go to www.archerytech.com and check out my leveling instructions. They are free!!!!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Ktrazz:

Your method of leveling to the vertical sight bar is correct, but not perfect. Here is why. Many times the sight will be located to the left of the arrow (for a right handed shooter). This is especially true for the shorter ATA bows. If this is the case and the sight has been adjusted for a natural cant, then as the sight is moved down toward the arrow for longer distances, it will move either closer to or farther from the arrow. This must be compensated for in some way.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Why would the sight be left of the arrow. Incorrect spine, incorrect centershot, excessive torque?
The arrow position never changes. The sight will not change it's left/right position. Why would you need to compensate for anything/
I'm from Missouri....ya gotta Show Me!!!!!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Line up your string with the arrow and then look where your sight is- bet it's to the left of the arrow. This is because of, IMO, cable guard torque at full draw. This is why the sight will be farther to the left of the arrow on shorter ATA bows. 
Okay, if you follow so far, what happens if you set your sight bar to your natural cant? As you move the sight down the bar it will move slightly more to the left of the arrow or slightly into or to the right of the arrow depending upon your particular cant. Follow?


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

I can absolutely say that my sight is dead over the center of the arrow.
AR34 & Mach 11 single cam.


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## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Do not confuse!*

Do not confuse lined up with the arrow and lined up with the pull of gravity. If the sight bar is vertical the relationship to gravitational pull is parallel.

If you need to compensate for different distances, either your 3rd axis is not set correctly or the 4th axis is off or both. Sight bar - Verticle, sight extension- parallel to the ARROW PATH.

The picture shows my sight and I do not shoot out of line anywhere. No adjustment 0 to 100 yards.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Carbon Terry:

Look at the picture. If you draw a vertical line parallel to the vertical sight bar and running thru the sight aperture, you will notice that the arrow is substantially to the left of the line (lets call it line A). Old Pro says his arrows are spot on at all yardages. IMO this can only be true if at full draw the arrow is in line with line A (probably because of cable guard torque). 
If the arrow is to the left of line A at full draw, then at some point the arrow will have to cross the sighting plane. For yardages under that point, the arrow will be left, for yardages over that point, the arrows will impact to the right. Follow?


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

Jabwa.

I can see what you are getting at from looking at the photo above. I"ve never thought quite that deep into it. However, I just took a look at my set up and this is what I found.
My Sure-loc is pushed to the farthest cant the holes will allow me. It is not canted as far as the sight in the photo though. I pushed my scope up the slide until it was at the top of my sight scale and held the bow level. My arrow is visually dead in line with my dot in my scope. Then I pushed to scope to the bottom of my scale (just above the arrow) and leveled the bow again. My arrow was still visually dead in line with the dot. I do not have to make any adjustment to my windage from 10ft out past 80 yards. I wonder if form flaws or bow torque could come into play during center shot tuning which could cause me to be dead on all the way up and down my sight range?


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## TX Bowhunter (Dec 13, 2004)

*Great Point*



P.L. Archery said:


> Put a level against the limb pockets of your bow and make sure both the sight bubble and the carpenters level bubble are centered at the same time.
> If they are, then ALWAYS center the sight bubble before you shoot. Your pins should be perfectly straight and paralell with your string when set up properly. Also make sure your elbow isn't locked. The crotch of your elbow should be pointing slightly down, and never up.


Great point about the levels I have seen a few that were not always level. Anything mass produce can have mistakes and the levels on sights is now exception.

John


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Pins do not have to be in line with the string, but they must be perpendicular to the level.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Ktrazz:

If your sight is in line with the arrow at full draw for short as well as long distances, you not only have the bow set up very well, you also have very good form. Now, and this is the hard part- LEAVE IT ALONE!!!


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## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Cant!*

Jabwa

Don't let the picture fool you! I was not careful to make sure the bow was perfectly straight on. With the sight extended, it would only take a small lean to the left to show the arrow rest way to the right. Trust me, the pin is in line with the arrow path.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

I learned a long time ago that most problems are with form and not equipment. I laugh at the shooters who are constantly looking for the answer gaget. When all they have to do is video tape themselves and look at it closely. I always preach that form will blow gagets away everytime. I never stop working on form and I have not bought a new bow or other equipment (other than new arrows) in the past 8 years. If it ain't broke don't fix it. In fact I proved it this sping. After 15 years of shooting a hook and working on form, I went back to fingers. My score has only dropped 12 points from my average with the hook. I held a 270 average (14 field targets) with a hook and have been touching 258 with fingers this season. I atribute it to working on my form constantly.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

ktrazz:

I agree. Saw an archer once when I was new to archery and he was punching his trigger release but scoring in the upper 90's on a Vegas face. I asked him why he didn't change to a back tension release and he told me that the release he was using was the only release he had ever used and he saw no reason to change. I learned a lot from that archer. Still....those new Hoyt's are awful nice :smile:
There are also things about equipment setup that just make good sense and we can all learn and improve both our form and equipment setup by tuning in to AT occasionally. At least, IMO.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

I agree. I'm fairly new to this site but starting to get hooked. I've learned somethings and I like to think my experience has helped some people. Great site.
I have yet to shoot my new Hoyt. I'm converting from spirals to cam and halfs. Won't have it converted until this next week. Then we will see how it stacks up to my old Browning.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

When you are at full draw the bar is absolutely vertical. The relationship of the sight with the arrow does not change (at full draw........the only time it matters).
All of the red lines are perfectly vertical and parallel. Photoshop has a function that guarantees the lines are vertical.
The bubble in the level is not centered because I simply rotated Gene's image.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

It also looks to me that the bow is not exactly pointed straight at the camera there for making it appear the sight is inside the rest. I think if you point it in the proper direction, the sight would end up in line with the rest and parallel with everything else. Nice job CarbonTerry.


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## michael bilbrey (May 27, 2005)

I had the problem when shooting without hunting gloves. So now i wear hunting gloves when hunting or practicing


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Carbon Terry:

So if the rest on the bow in the picture needed to be that far to the left in order for the arrow to hit the X ring at 20 yards, wouldn't it need to be even farther to the left in order to hit the X at 60 yards? The arrow needs to cross the sighting plane at some distance and then at longer distances it seems to me it will be farther to the right. If this is wrong, please explain.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

The perspective of the original photo was not aligned with the string,sight arrow. We cannot see the string because it is hidden behind the riser (I think). This photo was originally submitted by Gene to show the sight being adjusted to allow the bow to be canted for a "comfortable" holding position (for Gene). 
My illustration was to show that as the scope would move up or down that its relationship to the rest/arrow position did not change.
And the answer to your question is...No.
You quoted ...Line up your string with the arrow and then look where your sight is- bet it's to the left of the arrow. This is because of, IMO, cable guard torque at full draw. This is why the sight will be farther to the left of the arrow on shorter ATA bows.
I will take it that this is how your particular set up looks? (there's nothing wrong with it if it works for you)
Is your 60 yard pin further out/in than your 20?


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## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*It doesn't matter!*

All of this discussion is good! However, it is my opinion that where the arrow lays in relation to the sight or pins has little significance. The true test is when the torque, if any, is transmitted to the arrow. That is called the SHOT. :teeth: Whether the sight is left of the arrow or wherever it may lay means nothing if the arrow impacts in the dot when SHOT. Hence the invention of the Tek-Tech 4th Axis. http://www.archerytech.com/

By the way, the string is behind the backdrop. Maybe I should take another picture.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Carbon Terry:

Absolutely agree. What I was concerned about was that the picture was at full draw. I think we all agree that at release, the sight and rest become in perfect alignment because of some kind of torque. If you can get the bow to shoot with no torque whatsoever (impossible?), then and only then will the sight and rest be in alignment when the the bow is let down.


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