# Olympic Men - No Coach Lee



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

Just wondering...Khatuna Lorig had Coach Lee out there for her but he wasn't out there for the men Butch Johnson & Vic Wunderle. Lorig acted as Wunderle's coach and an older guy coached Johnson. I'm surprised Coach Lee wasn't out there when 2 of his archers made it to the quarter finals. Anyone know why?

I would say I'd rather get a big hug from Lorig than Lee for the 1/8 round as Wunderle did when he won his round.


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## Targetbutt (Jan 19, 2006)

I was about to ask the same question. Saw the shoot between Wunderlee and Serrano this morning and Lorig was the one coaching Vic.


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

The "older" man was probably Don Rabska who went as an assistant coach.


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## Archery Mom (Apr 2, 2003)

Butch and Vic never trained under Lee. Lee is the head coach of the team there, but i cant imagine why he would not heve been there for the other archers even if they do not subscibe to his methods of archery.


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## SEPENS M. PIPER (Jul 14, 2008)

cant wait to start my "best" method

Is he canned yet?


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## ic2hunt (Aug 29, 2007)

The fact that our best archers are not training with Lee and not allowing him to be on the field with them is very curious. 

I would love to be a fly on the wall at the USOTC.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I certainly do not have an insiders view, but as a competitor, you want your "second" to know your shot. There has to be a comfort level between coach and student. I'm not sure that this comfort and chemistry exists between those 2 archers and the current coach. 
It's like going to the prom with a glamor girl instead of your girlfriend. All though it's been more than a couple of decades since my prom.


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## ic2hunt (Aug 29, 2007)

If you go to the prom with someone other than your "girlfriend", that is called breaking up.

To have another archer not the head coach in your box, is pretty interesting. I think Vic was making a statement. Maybe someone that knows him can confirm or set us all straight.


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

I would hazard a guess that Vic and Khatuna had a little pow-pow prior to the competition, and Vic went over what he needed with her. I'd bet the farm that he didn't feel comfortable having that conversation with Coach Lee.

No offense to the Coach.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

stodrette said:


> I would hazard a guess that Vic and Khatuna had a little pow-pow prior to the competition, and Vic went over what he needed with her. I'd bet the farm that he didn't feel comfortable having that conversation with Coach Lee.
> 
> No offense to the Coach.


Or he wanted someone who was going to yell at him like Khatuna did. Coach Lee may be more restrained in his coaching style on the field. 

I wondered why Vic wanted Khatuna to be so vocal, though. Could it have been for his benefit or to throw the other competitor off? (Not that I'd see that working with a world class archer...) It did seem to raise the drama level on the field.

PC-


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Paradoxical Cat said:


> I wondered why Vic wanted Khatuna to be so vocal, though. Could it have been for his benefit or to throw the other competitor off? (Not that I'd see that working with a world class archer...) It did seem to raise the drama level on the field.


I too wondered at that - I don't think I could concentrate with someone hollering at me like that. Obviously it worked well for him, he seemed to shoot better with her hollering. It seemed most of his bad arrows were when the shot went off quick and she was just encouraging.

Maybe he practices at home and has his kids and a wife (assuming he has them, I don't know much about him) constantly yammering away at him


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

strcpy said:


> I too wondered at that - I don't think I could concentrate with someone hollering at me like that. Obviously it worked well for him, he seemed to shoot better with her hollering. It seemed most of his bad arrows were when the shot went off quick and she was just encouraging.
> 
> Maybe he practices at home and has his kids and a wife (assuming he has them, I don't know much about him) constantly yammering away at him


When I need to concentrate I put on speed-metal or industrial because it drowns out the other noise and allows me to concentrate.  It drives everyone else crazy, however. 

Whatever the reason, it worked for him. I may have to try it sometime. :wink:

Apparently (according to the NBC color commentary), the Korean archers train by having to shoot in a stadium full of people heckling and trying to distract them. I wonder if the U.S. does something similar.


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## wis_archer (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you can get some of these archers nervous pretty easily.

Look at serrano. He was really nervous.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

SEPENS M. PIPER said:


> cant wait to start my "best" method
> 
> Is he canned yet?


Why? The man's record speaks for itself.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jim, they think because Brady went out early that Lee Ki Sik doesn't know what he's doing.

Your best archer and the one that qualified first for the teams is Brady Ellison, he had an off match against our Jay Lyon, who owns the Canadian record for a FITA and some of the distances separately, so it's not as though Brady was shooting against a nobody in team Canada. Lee Ki Sik has also given Jay technical pointers to lower his shoulder and Crispen Duenas was using a lot of the BEST technique in his 16th place qualifier and close match with Petersson.

Khatuna is also coached by Lee Ki Sik and did very well.

Vic is a great archer and had the experience to go a little further than Brady, that is how I see it.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> Jim, they think because Brady went out early that Lee Ki Sik doesn't know what he's doing.
> 
> Your best archer and the one that qualified first for the teams is Brady Ellison, he had an off match against our Jay Lyon, who owns the Canadian record for a FITA and some of the distances separately, so it's not as though Brady was shooting against a nobody in team Canada. Lee Ki Sik has also given Jay technical pointers to lower his shoulder and Crispen Duenas was using a lot of the BEST technique in his 16th place qualifier and close match with Petersson.
> 
> ...


12 arrow matches are crap shoots-look at the last olympics where Frangilli, Barnes, etc went out early and the #3 Italian won the Gold medal. I cannot think of a single olympics since 1984 where the guy with the most total points actually won the gold


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

Jim C said:


> 12 arrow matches are crap shoots-look at the last olympics where Frangilli, Barnes, etc went out early and the #3 Italian won the Gold medal. I cannot think of a single olympics since 1984 where the guy with the most total points actually won the gold


Jim, I disagree. The OR round is pressure cooker! You could see Vic had the Sahara Desert in his mouth on the match with IM! Loved it!


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## redneckarcher29 (Oct 13, 2005)

SEPENS M. PIPER said:


> cant wait to start my "best" method
> 
> Is he canned yet?


HaHa, I also hate this BEST method. I say USA needs a new coach.....:zip:


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

monty53 said:


> Jim, I disagree. The OR round is pressure cooker! You could see Vic had the Sahara Desert in his mouth on the match with IM! Loved it!


OK, New format for the OR round. Two archers are placed 200meters away from each other and given 3 arrows each. Both start shooting at each other at the whistle. First one to die loses. Now that's pressure!

The PG version could have the archers shooting at a bullseye and the one who hits it first triggers a dunk tank. <g>

Might even get to see some of that on NBC real TV


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Paradoxical Cat said:


> When I need to concentrate I put on speed-metal or industrial because it drowns out the other noise and allows me to concentrate.  It drives everyone else crazy, however.


Well, I can generally block everything out if I want too (I've fallen asleep sitting on an active trap and skeet field - if that noise doesn't bother me nothing does). But he seemed to be listening to her and depending on the count down - I can't see how that works.



> Whatever the reason, it worked for him. I may have to try it sometime. :wink:


Obviously - his best shots were when she was having at him. I just found it interesting that was so. Not saying he needs to change or anything, I'm sure at this point he knows what makes him shoot his best - I just don't see how.



> Apparently (according to the NBC color commentary), the Korean archers train by having to shoot in a stadium full of people heckling and trying to distract them. I wonder if the U.S. does something similar.


I would bet so - I would be surprised if any athlete that has to compete with an audience doesn't train at least *some* under those circumstances. It would be tough to have that on top of the pressure of a shoot. I did note in the match Wunderle lost there were some people in the audience hollering "pull!" after he let down on a few shots. It didn't seem to phase him (not even sure he heard them) as the following shots were also some of his better. His worst were the ones that went quick and had plenty of time - which is again kinda amusing (and with so few arrows I'm not even saying it was a trend - just amusing).


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

monty53 said:


> Jim, I disagree. The OR round is pressure cooker! You could see Vic had the Sahara Desert in his mouth on the match with IM! Loved it!


You disagree with my contention that the gold medalists are not the people with the highest point totals?


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

strcpy said:


> But he seemed to be listening to her and depending on the count down - I can't see how that works.
> 
> 
> Obviously - his best shots were when she was having at him. I just found it interesting that was so. Not saying he needs to change or anything, I'm sure at this point he knows what makes him shoot his best - I just don't see how.


My thoughts:

1) I think that he was focusing on the shot that he wasn't focusing on the clock. Thus, her countdown allowed him to focus on two things: the shot and the shot.

2) I think you are right that he "seemed to be listening to her." I don't think he was. I think he may have been using her voice as a way to block the crowd noise or as a way to build tension and throw the other archer off. (I am sure that some would think: "Oh, he's psyched out and needs active coaching. He'll be an easy take." They would think that at their peril, however.) It works in the same way that I use speed-metal or you can fall asleep at a range: familiar sounds that don't bother us.

3) I didn't hear her commentary, but if the order of the phrases were the same, then it may have been some sort of assistance with the timing of his shots or giving some sort of information on the conditions. (I don't know how that would work in archery, but I used to have a song in my head during swimming races. The time it took me to get through the song matched the length of the race. When I got to the final verse, I knew that I had to really burn it into the wall.)

Or it just was what it was.

I am sure that someone will explain what was going on. Or not. But it is fun to speculate. :wink:

PC-


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

just thinking out loud here but could it also be that coach lee's command of english is not as good as khatuna's??...in the heat of battle communication between archer and coach could prove critical and a lot of encouraging words or rah rah statements are oftentimes in american slang......we also have a korean as our national coach but our lone archer who made it to beijing chose his filipino coach who not only was his townmate but also a former olympian in sydney.....confidence and communication skills may sometimes outweigh coaching ability in these situations....JMHO..


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Paradoxical Cat said:


> 1) I think that he was focusing on the shot that he wasn't focusing on the clock. Thus, her countdown allowed him to focus on two things: the shot and the shot.


Sure, I assumed that too. She didn't start counting until 9 seconds and did so rhythmically. I'm certain he used that as some type of tempo thing. I can usually control my shot tempo but I would have a *really* hard time changing the way he did - but then I'm not near the level of archer he is either. I have to do the whole thing faster if needed, I can't just speed up right in the middle of the thing (though to be fair I can't be certain that is what he did either).



> 2) I think you are right that he "seemed to be listening to her." I don't think he was.


There were a few times where what she said was kinda heckling him and after the shot he turned around and made a face at her - he had to be splitting his focus more than I ever could. He also had a tendency to sit and breath between letting down (and yes, I know why) and he listened to her on getting his next shot going. Again for most I think that would break concentration too much and was obviously some form of paying attention to her.



> 3) I didn't hear her commentary, but if the order of the phrases were the same, then it may have been some sort of assistance with the timing of his shots or giving some sort of information on the conditions.


They weren't - mostly it was "stay strong", "that's good", "don't worry about it" and such. There was some phrases about pulling (I don't recall the exact phrase), fussing at him to get the next shot going, and then the count down. They were situational and didn't follow a pattern - in the match he won against the Korean she actually kinda hollered with a mean voice at him )I couldn't understand what she said but it garnered one of those looks).

I can't be sure but since she was another competitor I doubt his normal routine was her hollering at him  (though as I speculated maybe his wife berates him the whole time he shoots ). This is the first one of these I've actually been able to watch so I don't know what is normal for him. It was obviously different from the other archers and would not have worked for anyone else I know. Obviously it did for him.

Actually, were I too guess he is a person who needs to be pushed to achieve his best scores and she was obviously good at pushing. As someone else speculated above that may be why Coach Lee wasn't there - by all accounts I have read he is kinda laid back. Personally I would hate to have her as a coach as I am the opposite but that type of thing is purely personal. Given his letting down I also suspect that they counting down was a rhythm marker and her voice was ... hmm ... soothing or pleasant aren't the right word (actually I thought it was kinda harsh) but was a voice that was easy to hear and yet not really hear or break ones concentration. Kind of a pleasingly harsh voice - I know other women with that type of voice also (and I generally like that type of voice too). In that sense I could probably learn to pace myself from that were I to work on it, the rest though would have me losing concentration like crazy.

I guess I've seen stranger things that worked for people, this one just stood out now because it was the first time I've been able to see it and it was so different from the other competitors.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

No mystery there. Vic just wanted a girl instead of a guy behind him. Simple!


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Progen said:


> No mystery there. Vic just wanted a girl instead of a guy behind him. Simple!


Well, I know what I have done in the past to try and impress females (long embarrassing stories) so maybe that was it . It never seemed to work and wasn't until my 30's that I mostly stopped doing it, but even then I still find myself going that way from time to time.


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## andy1996 (Feb 15, 2004)

Every archer that I remember seeing had their national coach behind them. I just think that by our "National Coach" not being behind Vic says a lot about how our program needs to grow and and how it will never stand up to the solidarity of other national teams. I remember a quote from a great recurve archer whose name I will not mention: An individual will never stand up to a "program"; aka Korea, Italy, China, etc. I just thought that by coach Lee not being behind Butch and Vic showed "weakness" and a lack of solidarity with our "program". IMHO.


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

Our program is in good shape. Coach Lee was sitting next to me in the stands. Butch had Don out there with him and Vic had Khatuna. We were having to bounce between two stadiums. At one time both guys were shooting at the same time. Khatuna did a great job with Vic. I hope you could hear everything she was saying. She was dropping the hammer on him between shots. The best saying she had for the Olympics was "quit *****ing on your self and just shoot". I think Vic got the point. 

All our archers did great, we are very proud of the.


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## indyarcher (Jan 6, 2003)

*No need for coaching*

I think when you get to this level of competition, you don't need coaching. The coaching comes before the competition. The only need for a coach in this situation was for Kahtuna to count down for Vic so he could concentrate on his shot instead of the clock, and anyone could have done that for him.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

pineapple3d said:


> all our archers did great, we are very proud of them.


yes we are!


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

indyarcher said:


> I think when you get to this level of competition, you don't need coaching. The coaching comes before the competition. The only need for a coach in this situation was for Kahtuna to count down for Vic so he could concentrate on his shot instead of the clock, and anyone could have done that for him.


I would disagree with you here. The coaching is only at tournaments and the teaching is before the competition. Big difference.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

redneckarcher29 said:


> HaHa, I also hate this BEST method. I say USA needs a new coach.....:zip:


That's fine, Canada will take Lee and be happy to have him, especially when we medal in the next Olympics.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

andy1996 said:


> Every archer that I remember seeing had their national coach behind them. I just think that by our "National Coach" not being behind Vic says a lot about how our program needs to grow and and how it will never stand up to the solidarity of other national teams. I remember a quote from a great recurve archer whose name I will not mention: An individual will never stand up to a "program"; aka Korea, Italy, China, etc. I just thought that by coach Lee not being behind Butch and Vic showed "weakness" and a lack of solidarity with our "program". IMHO.


If they don't want to train with him at the Olympic center, why would they want him behind them at the Olympics?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Ok, couch coaches.  I am sorry if I offend anyone but some of your comments crack me up! US Archery is going through transition. Yes, it is hard to accept that a “foreign” coach needs to be coaching us! But if given time I am sure he will improve the overall form and attitude within the US. We have had some really great coaches in the past as well as some horrific ones. So we need to give this coaching method a chance. After all, there is no US coach that would be remotely allowed to do what Mr. Lee is doing. 

About Vic. Here is a guy who has spent countless hours and years developing his form. He is still one of the best in the world as he proved at these Games. He is not willing to make the major overhaul it would require of him to shoot Mr. Lee’s technique. Now, since this is all over, and there is four years for the next Olympics, Vic should consider the change. He should think about going out to the Olympic Training Center and spend four years with this system. As you recall Simon Fairweather was a World Champion and then fell from the world of archery for a period of time. After shooting poorly for several years he made the change that Mr. Lee advocated and it took two to three more years for it to come together. However, Simon was not even a contender before he made the switch. Thus, he had nothing to loose and everything to gain. Vic and Butch could make the change but they have to be out of the competitive edge for a few years. Are they willing to do that? Would you? Not knowing if it will succeed or not? Maybe, after these Games, but not before. That would have been suicide and just plain stupid. Yes, stupid!  Anybody thinking differently don’t get it because they have not been in the position that Vic and Butch are in.

Now about Vic and Butch having Mr. Lee with them. It is simple. Butch knows and gets along with Mr. Rabska for over 10 years. The personality is agreeable between both of them and Vic gets along with Khatuna very well as they showed during the match plays. I can assure you Khatuna knew what Vic wanted and needed due to their discussion before the match and since they are fellow archers they know each other’s mental thoughts. Don’t forget that they have been traveling together with the US team for several years. Mr. Lee is just starting to get to know them and the only ones he knows intimately are the RA’s. 

I thought it very magnanimous for Mr. Lee to step aside and allow the guys to choose who they wanted in the coaches’ box. It shows that he really does want to win and he does not let his ego get in the way. Well….most of the time… :zip:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> That's fine, Canada will take Lee and be happy to have him, especially when we medal in the next Olympics.


You gonna pay him?


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Ok, couch coaches.  I am sorry if I offend anyone but some of your comments crack me up! US Archery is going through transition. Yes, it is hard to accept that a “foreign” coach needs to be coaching us! But if given time I am sure he will improve the overall form and attitude within the US. We have had some really great coaches in the past as well as some horrific ones. So we need to give this coaching method a chance. After all, there is no US coach that would be remotely allowed to do what Mr. Lee is doing.
> 
> About Vic. Here is a guy who has spent countless hours and years developing his form. He is still one of the best in the world as he proved at these Games. He is not willing to make the major overhaul it would require of him to shoot Mr. Lee’s technique. Now, since this is all over, and there is four years for the next Olympics, Vic should consider the change. He should think about going out to the Olympic Training Center and spend four years with this system. As you recall Simon Fairweather was a World Champion and then fell from the world of archery for a period of time. After shooting poorly for several years he made the change that Mr. Lee advocated and it took two to three more years for it to come together. However, Simon was not even a contender before he made the switch. Thus, he had nothing to loose and everything to gain. Vic and Butch could make the change but they have to be out of the competitive edge for a few years. Are they willing to do that? Would you? Not knowing if it will succeed or not? Maybe, after these Games, but not before. That would have been suicide and just plain stupid. Yes, stupid!  Anybody thinking differently don’t get it because they have not been in the position that Vic and Butch are in.
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective Rick, and the most concise explanation I've heard yet. The one thing that really scares me with your system down there is the "all or nothing" commitment to a single interpretation of Archery technique. I still feel a training centre should offer more than that.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> Ok, couch coaches.


All of what Rick said was good. This point needs to be said again.

It still amazes me when a bunch of yahoos who have no idea what they are talking about sit around on the internet sniping at something they don't even understand.

Very few of you know Vic, Khatuna, Brady or Coach Lee...and yet those who know the least have been the most vocal about how the training (which you don't even grok) is bad, or what this or that *says* about something thinking it is some flipping soap opera drama in which everything needs to have something read into it.

If you don't know, be quiet and don't guess, spreading rumors. 

Bah. The internet.

-Andrew


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

SEPENS M. PIPER said:


> cant wait to start my "best" method
> 
> Is he canned yet?


That's pretty rude and a cheap shot.

Art


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

spangler said:


> All of what Rick said was good. This point needs to be said again.
> 
> It still amazes me when a bunch of yahoos who have no idea what they are talking about sit around on the internet sniping at something they don't even understand.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

spangler said:


> All of what Rick said was good. This point needs to be said again.
> 
> It still amazes me when a bunch of yahoos who have no idea what they are talking about sit around on the internet sniping at something they don't even understand.
> 
> ...


Dead on Andrew.....one thing you could have added..nah better not say it.


McKinney, put it together very well. Many should pay attention and then do something in their own lives that is worth while instead of looking for an opportunity to bash others who are doing something with their lives. You know, break out of the little man, little mind sydrom.


Art


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> You gonna pay him?


if I won the lottery, you bet!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> if I won the lottery, you bet!


Now there's a sound foundation to build Olympic dreams on 6/49 and a prayer!:wink:


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Now there's a sound foundation to build Olympic dreams on 6/49 and a prayer!:wink:


ironicaly was that not waht some of the exess lotery money was ment for:wink: In MB the loterys used to fund a large portion of Sport MB

Reed


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

ArtV said:


> Dead on Andrew.....one thing you could have added..nah better not say it.
> 
> 
> McKinney, put it together very well. Many should pay attention and then do something in their own lives that is worth while instead of looking for an opportunity to bash others who are doing something with their lives. You know, break out of the little man, little mind sydrom.
> ...


Or maybe some on here could read this thread.:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=7428322#post7428322


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Reed said:


> ironicaly was that not waht some of the exess lotery money was ment for:wink: In MB the loterys used to fund a large portion of Sport MB
> 
> Reed


The entire lottery system was started In Quebec with the Olympic Lottery which was conceived to help pay for the Montreal Games. 10 bucks a ticket (lot of money for the 70's) with a 1 million dollar payout

We have the Trillium Foundation here in Ontario which does some great work to support sports. A lot of paperwork for a grant but well worth it if you are starting a club or looking to expand. It uses the profits from the Ontario Casinos.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I encourage all to foster open communications. That means each individual must all be able to separate the “wheat from the chaff”. An AT posting has no accountability or credibility in and of itself. 
Consider the source:
Rick McKinney, good source.
An AT user that is nameless, has little profile or experienced knowledge, not so good.

Wikipedia Metaphor
Chaff as a waste product from grain processing leads to a metaphorical use of the term, to refer to something worthless. This is most commonly in the expression "to separate the wheat from the chaff", which means to separate things of value from things of no value. Another example is in Psalm 1 of the Bible, which says: "Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away".

Thank goodness for the lurkers that bring wheat to the table.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Serious Fun said:


> I encourage all to foster open communications. That means each individual must all be able to separate the “wheat from the chaff”. An AT posting has no accountability or credibility in and of itself.
> Consider the source:
> Rick McKinney, good source.
> An AT user that is nameless, has little profile or experienced knowledge, not so good.
> ...


Good post Bob. I keep waiting for the years to bring me wisdom and patience. *sigh* Maybe next year.

The part that frustrates me the most is that there are a lot of newcomers to the sport who don't know reputations and don't know who to believe. The beauty of separating wheat and chaff (in real life) is that they are available in a tolerable proportionate amount. We are dealing with a 20:1 chaff to wheat ratio too often here and that is very confusing to the newcomers.

I'm all for open communication and the exchange of ideas, but useless rumor milling and bashing of things without understanding should be left to the mid-day talk shows and the E! channel.

-Andrew


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## jmcmurchie (Dec 5, 2003)

Just a thought or two. If we truly had a "one type" system, we would have declared this a training and expereince olympics and sent over a team from the RA's. Instead, the best performing athletes competed. As Rick said, these athletes now have the time to decide if their form requires an overhaul to remain competetive.

If what I saw in the videos shows anything, it is that many styles and forms can get arrows into the middle. I don't yet know coach Lee. I am hoping his expereince will allow him to coach more than one style.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

spangler said:


> Good post Bob. I keep waiting for the years to bring me wisdom and patience. *sigh* Maybe next year.
> 
> The part that frustrates me the most is that there are a lot of newcomers to the sport who don't know reputations and don't know who to believe. The beauty of separating wheat and chaff (in real life) is that they are available in a tolerable proportionate amount. We are dealing with a 20:1 chaff to wheat ratio too often here and that is very confusing to the newcomers.
> 
> ...


I think 20:1 is a little high there Spangler, don't you. The amount of times I have actually seen bad advice posted here is pretty small given the size and scope of the site itself. Even then more often than not an experienced member will "correct" any outright poor advice given.

As for bashing. I am really at a loss over this oversensitivity toward the Coach. If it were football or any other sport such comments as you have seen above would be laughed at or dismissed outright. To think that you can make the type of drastic alterations to a national program that the US has and not have comments about the either real or perceived lack of results is the height of naivety. Biblical quotes insinuating wickedness, are miles away from an appropriate response to jabs and criticisms of a national team coach who inevitably, will not be approved of by all.

Perhaps a thicker skin should be a part of the new kit, cordovan I think.:wink:

You trotted out Heinlein, so I'll leave you with one from Clarke. "Never put all your baskets in the hands of one egghead,"


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## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

I liked the old Guy coment regarding Don Rabska being with Butch. 

Has Don seen that


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

comp1 said:


> I liked the old Guy coment regarding Don Rabska being with Butch.
> 
> Has Don seen that


Yeah I laughed at that-when I hear "Old guy" archery coaches I think of Charlie Pierson or say George Helwig a few years ago-not the very enthusiastic and upbeat Don Rabska who has more energy than lots of 25 year olds:wink:


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## Chequamegon (Apr 7, 2006)

If I could put myself in Vics shoes, and I actually had the Jewels to let down that many times, and push the clock down to the horn, I would prefer Lorigs voice..."don't quit baby, put your bow back up" over Lees.:wink: If there were no complications, other than having to be at two locations at the same time, the coaching substitution shows the they were a group that worked together very well and comfortable coaching one another.

Most importantly, they all represented the U.S. very well and we should all be very proud.

The only thing I would to plan different in making sure we have a qualifiable 3rd female in 2012.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

spangler said:


> ...is very confusing to the newcomers. -Andrew


Good point.
Confusion...
If we were all in together socializing and discussing a topic in a living room or on the phone, that would be one thing. But in a wide open public forum where the audience varies greatly is something completely different. 
I think a speaker has a moral obligation to communicate responsibly. The example is the prankster that yells fire in a crowded theatre, what is a clever comment to one person can be disastrous for others. 
As the archery grows, there will be an increase in the diverse backgrounds of our community. Responsible communications will become even more important. 
In this thread, a newcomer could interpret that there is a huge controversy that simply is not the case. The best solution I can think of is to avoid guesing when answering questions.


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> I think 20:1 is a little high there Spangler, don't you. The amount of times I have actually seen bad advice posted here is pretty small given the size and scope of the site itself. Even then more often than not an experienced member will "correct" any outright poor advice given.
> 
> As for bashing. I am really at a loss over this oversensitivity toward the Coach. If it were football or any other sport such comments as you have seen above would be laughed at or dismissed outright. To think that you can make the type of drastic alterations to a national program that the US has and not have comments about the either real or perceived lack of results is the height of naivety. Biblical quotes insinuating wickedness, are miles away from an appropriate response to jabs and criticisms of a national team coach who inevitably, will not be approved of by all.
> 
> ...


I think he was referring to your posts hutty... averaged in with the rest of us, the ratio does decline, but only slightly :tongue:

Isn't there a NASA forum somewhere that needs input on the latest shuttle design?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think between Andrew and the great Rick McKinney, the matter has been pretty well closed.

I don't have anything to add, other than to reiterate that if you've never been in a position such as these fine 5 athletes found themselves, you'll never have the experience or knowledge to formulate a valid answer.

Public speculation seems to be great recreation these days...

The 5 archers and National head coach who represented us at these games are to be commended for their personal dedication and sacrifice. I know each of them, and what they have sacrificed to be where they are. These are things that very few know of, or ever will.

John.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

SuperX said:


> I think he was referring to your posts hutty... averaged in with the rest of us, the ratio does decline, but only slightly :tongue:
> 
> Isn't there a NASA forum somewhere that needs input on the latest shuttle design?


Sorry to disapoint you but I gave up on that firm after I installed the Challenger AS400 gateway for Spar Aero:tongue:


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Now there's a sound foundation to build Olympic dreams on 6/49 and a prayer!:wink:


Eh, Jay may have shot well enough at the Olympics to get Archery in Canada some more funding, who knows? Lets hope so.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I think between Andrew and the great Rick McKinney, the matter has been pretty well closed.
> 
> I don't have anything to add, other than to reiterate that if you've never been in a position such as these fine 5 athletes found themselves, you'll never have the experience or knowledge to formulate a valid answer.
> 
> ...


Well put John. We sent our archery best to the Olympics. They competed with all of their skill and threw their heart and soul into every shot. Sometimes the game just doesn't go our way.

I do believe that we're going to see some spactular results from the young archers who are on the Junior Dream Team and in the RA Program over the next few years. I'm looking forward to 2012. It's going to be a very good year for Team USA Archery.

Dee


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Hutnicks said:


> As for bashing. I am really at a loss over this oversensitivity toward the Coach. If it were football or any other sport such comments as you have seen above would be laughed at or dismissed outright.


I don't know, maybe it's a local thing but this was pretty tame. I've heard worse consistently said about University of Tennessee's two big coaches. If people can accuse Pat Summitt of not knowing how to coach basketball properly for loosing a handful of games one year then this is nothing.

Not that it made some of the comments about Lee and his program appropriate, but at least to me that type of thing is more normal than not. Some actually means what they say, others I don't think really do.


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## azarcherymom (Jul 13, 2004)

Ok. I can't stand it any longer. Speaking as someone who was actually there at the Olympics, some of you really need to get a life. Quit trying to make something out of nothing. We had 5 remarkable athletes and great coaching staff there. They were a TEAM and acted like one. They all supported one another in whatever way worked for all of them. By some of the comments posted here, you are taking away that away from them. No matter how they finished, they were there for each other. They made us proud. Give it a rest. I expect great things to continue to happen to all of them.

Julie


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

*It's money that matters*



strcpy said:


> I don't know, maybe it's a local thing but this was pretty tame. I've heard worse consistently said about University of Tennessee's two big coaches. If people can accuse Pat Summitt of not knowing how to coach basketball properly for loosing a handful of games one year then this is nothing.
> 
> Not that it made some of the comments about Lee and his program appropriate, but at least to me that type of thing is more normal than not. Some actually means what they say, others I don't think really do.


That's because there is no money tied up in archery. How much money do you think is tied up in the University of Tennessee's program?? We can't even compare the 2 as far as gravity. Just the T.V. contracts!!! We won't even talk about the coaches salary or how much it cost to run the athletic department. NCAA Div I is Big Business. Even Womens basketball is big business. That's why there is so much pressure and talk. Archery I don't understand. Archery isn't important and everyone is complaining. 

Just look what the NBA has done this year for the Olympic basketball team. The NBA made a business decision not a medal decision. The Olympics is a giant money/marketing machine. All the bad press from the last Olympics hurt the image/money making potential for NBA basketball. The NBA is doing something about it. That's right NBA basketball is even popular in China. Until archery develops it own Identity outside of the Olympics things will remain as they are. A sport no one cares about other than those people who aren't talented enough to run a 9.69 100m or swim and win 8 gold medals. (just kidding)

Lyrics By Randy Newman

"Sonny it's money that matters, hear what I say
It's money that matters in the USA
It's money that matters
Now you know that it's true
It's money that matters whatever you do"

-Cheers
-R&B


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Hutnicks said:


> Sorry to disapoint you but I gave up on that firm after I installed the Challenger AS400 gateway for Spar Aero:tongue:


so we have you to blame. Bummer.


Should have stuck with the System 38


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

SuperX said:


> so we have you to blame. Bummer.
> 
> 
> Should have stuck with the System 38


It was after the "Event" the system had been declared surplus by NASA and was put into running simulation missions for them and Spar to test with.

Worked on an S36 once. Whovever thought up twinax should be used to line a target butt somewhere.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Kudo's to Rick and Andrew for their assesment. 

1.One of the problems in all these unqualified posts are that alot of folks are now coming into the sport thru bowhunting. They have no knowledge of history or even a basic understanding of the FITA culture. It is what it is. 

2.Unfortunately many JOAD programs are not enriching our kids in their heritage. They don't know who Rick is, or Darrell P, or Denise P or...

When I've coached I've tried to put stars in the eyes and a flame in their heart.

In this era of information it is a shame so little of it actually get's out. History has been replaced by opinion.


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

R&B said:


> That's because there is no money tied up in archery. How much money do you think is tied up in the University of Tennessee's program?? We can't even compare the 2 as far as gravity. Just the T.V. contracts!!! We won't even talk about the coaches salary or how much it cost to run the athletic department. NCAA Div I is Big Business. Even Womens basketball is big business. That's why there is so much pressure and talk. Archery I don't understand. Archery isn't important and everyone is complaining.


If those two didn't do it for you then I rather go listen to those people if/when they watch Lacross, rowing, fencing, or whatever. Then you have an AYSO soccer game, little league baseball, Scholastic Clays Trap tournaments, or any other sport. This is mostly pretty tame. Those two were more intended because how in the world you can disparage those particular coaches (Pat Summitt is arguably the most successful coach in known history) then it's not too hard to go after a "smaller" coaches.

Not to mention Coach Lee is VERY highly payed for his position (note the comments about if Canada could afford him). If being payed lots of money meant that type of thing is OK then it would be here also. There is a quite a bit of money out there for Archery - note that archery was one of the few alternative sorts that had *all* of it filmed and available on the internet and there is a reason for that (and it isn't that the heads of NBC are big FITA shooters).

And, to note, not everyone is complaining. Most are supporting what went on over there. I don't see how one can disparage Coach Lee as he is one of the more successful archery coaches out there. Money has nothing to do with how much people armchair coach. It's entertainment and some people are mean with it, others just like to talk about it (this is, after all, a message board and I also don't think any have issues with people just doing the latter).


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

strcpy said:


> If those two didn't do it for you then I rather go listen to those people if/when they watch Lacross, rowing, fencing, or whatever. Then you have an AYSO soccer game, little league baseball, Scholastic Clays Trap tournaments, or any other sport. This is mostly pretty tame. Those two were more intended because how in the world you can disparage those particular coaches (Pat Summitt is arguably the most successful coach in known history) then it's not too hard to go after a "smaller" coaches.
> 
> Not to mention Coach Lee is VERY highly payed for his position (note the comments about if Canada could afford him). If being payed lots of money meant that type of thing is OK then it would be here also. There is a quite a bit of money out there for Archery - note that archery was one of the few alternative sorts that had *all* of it filmed and available on the internet and there is a reason for that (and it isn't that the heads of NBC are big FITA shooters).
> 
> And, to note, not everyone is complaining. Most are supporting what went on over there. I don't see how one can disparage Coach Lee as he is one of the more successful archery coaches out there. Money has nothing to do with how much people armchair coach. It's entertainment and some people are mean with it, others just like to talk about it (this is, after all, a message board and I also don't think any have issues with people just doing the latter).


Wow, how much does the National Head Coach job pay? You seem to have a lot of info on the subject. Just wondering how much you really know...


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## toptox (Jul 9, 2008)

I find some of the comments here quite astounding. I took up the sport again 2 years ago after having shot through college in the UK during the 1980s and having been out of the sport since then. One year after re-entering the sport I was astounded to find that I finished as high as 10th or 11th in the rankings for the state of California while shooting nondescript scores. The depth of the sport here is very shallow compared to what I had been used to in the UK. Simplistically there are 2 things to be done:

1) Increase the pool of people from which to draw the top archers
2) Improve the training system for these top archers

I'll come back to (1) in a minute. The first thing for (2) is to change what has been done in the recent (pre Coach Lee) past. I'm not privy to how Coach Lee was brought in but from my outside perspective bringing in a successful coach from outside seems like a smart move. Coach Lee's focus appears to have been on training the RAs. There have been a number of coaches classes and seminars to disseminate the BEST method out to the clubs. My local club, which is primarily a field club exclusively teaches the BEST method and has several senior coaches that have attended the level 3 classes. Their experience, in comparing notes from successive classes, is that Coach Lee's BEST method is evolving as he learns more about what works and doesn't work with differences between body types and psyches. I have met several of the RAs (my daughter and I were fortunate to shoot at the OTC during the Cal. State Games) - it does not take much of a conversation to realize that they have a rigorous training program and that there are differences in shooting form between RAs but the fundamentals are solid. The Koreans had several decades to build up their program but there seems to be an expectation of instant results here - it isn't going to happen especially with the current shallow talent pool. We have to be in this for the long haul. 

OK, now for (1). This is not the job of the National Coach - it is the job of the archery community. Holding a competition? Notify the local paper and tv stations, invite them, take photographs, send them articles, educate them. They ignored you - maybe next time but don't give up. Offer public outreach for people to try the sport. My club does this every Saturday morning, as of mid July we had fielded over 1500 web/email/phone inquiries and taught a basic beginners class to over 600 new potential archers who "just wanted to try it" and we no longer promote/advertise our Saturday activity (except on our website) because many regional "what to do sites" now feature it as an activity without our prompting. Admittedly LA is a high density population area  

BTW if all you do for this sport is show up and shoot, you are not doing enough.

One side note about the BEST method. I have heard snide comments about it being "The Korean Method" renamed. Roy Matthews and John Holden have a book "Archery in Earnest" published in 1985 - if you look at all of the photographs of Roy's form in that book there is a lot of commonality (but some differences) with the BEST method. If you've studied form of top archers of the past you will find commonality of most of the basics.

Gary


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> Wow, how much does the National Head Coach job pay? You seem to have a lot of info on the subject. Just wondering how much you really know...


Dunno how much exactly. You have been in it long enough to know how much Easton kicks into the program and you have been in it long enough to know that Mr. Lee's cost was making ripples in the coaching community when he was hired on (taking up a VERY large percentage of the USOC's archery budget). That was never really in question - I don't know if his salary or their exact budget is even public.

His salary being quite large has never really been in question as far as I know - the people that post here from time to time who train with the team, the people on Sagittarius that do also, NAA/NADA publications, people (like you) that are active enough in national level coaching talk about it, in fact every publication and person that is in a much better position than me all say that too. I cases such as that I see no reason for me to know his exact salary to say he gets a hefty sum for his services any more than I need to know what Pat Summitt or Phil Fulmer are paid to know they get payed a lot too (for pretty much the same reason - how many times on the news did we hear about their contracts this year? Though I guess Knoxville may get that type of news more than your chunk of Tennessee).

I don't really know why you are attacking what I said anyway - I'm agreeing with what you wrote earlier. As far as producing Olympic Archers saying he needs to be fired or is doing something grossly incorrect is like saying we need to fire Pat Summitt - it makes no sense at all. He is one of the worlds top coaches period - note the lack of "archery" in there as that is true no matter the discipline you compare him too (and that doesn't come cheap). The only point I had is that money is not the issue with the people bashing him and, were it the issue, there is plenty of money there. It's just something many people do for various different reasons (IMO best to just ignore it if you really care). In fact, given how successful he has been in the past I rather suspect he is underpaid.

The only thing I would say otherwise is that speculation on why they did this or that or if something else would have worked better is different - that is just people talking (and being a message board that is part of it). 

Further I'm quite certain that everyone here has done it before too - ever fuss and wonder why a button was put where it was or why some software worked they way it does? Think your placement or feature was superior? Well the guys that wrote the software are probably just as much a professional and I am willing to bet that most here know even less about software design than they do coaching or shooting archery (at least most here have done some archery) yet are quite willing to tell software engineers how to do their jobs - most/some do it in a constructive or neutral way (that is, general discussion), others in a not so nice way. My guess is the ones that do it in a not so nice way are the same ones doing it in football, archery, software, well - pretty much everything.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

strcpy said:


> Dunno how much exactly. You have been in it long enough to know how much Easton kicks into the program and you have been in it long enough to know that Mr. Lee's cost was making ripples in the coaching community when he was hired on (taking up a VERY large percentage of the USOC's archery budget). That was never really in question - I don't know if his salary or their exact budget is even public.
> 
> His salary being quite large has never really been in question as far as I know -


I appreciate you thinking that I know more than I do, but I don't know how much Coach Lee nor anyone else involved with the "program" makes nor do I care. I don't know how much of the USOC's archery budget was taken up nor how much Easton kicks into the program. I don't count the other guy's money.

From what I remember, the ripples were made by thoses who were jealous and angry that an "outsider" was hired to come in and revamp the "system", not over salary. If salary wasn't an issue, then why did you bring it up in ALL CAPS? To someone making minimum wage, a salary of $10.00 an hour may seem QUITE LARGE.

People are mad because we have a "National Training System" and the days of hodge podge training methods and shooting styles that differ drastically from one coach to the next are fading. Today's society is oriented toward "instant gratification" and if something doesn't produce instant results we want to throw it out and get something new that will supposedly produce those results faster. This attitude bleeds over into sports, unfortunatly.

The fortunate side of all of this is the performance of the Jr. Dream Team Program. Those results at the SI Cup, JOAD Nationals, Target Nationals and Jr. World Team Trials speak for themselves. The BEST Method is making a big difference there and in 4 years I think we'll be more than happy with the results.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

toptox said:


> 1) Increase the pool of people from which to draw the top archers
> 2) Improve the training system for these top archers





> BTW if all you do for this sport is show up and shoot, you are not doing enough.


Spot on, Gary!

Dave


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## HoytIT (May 27, 2008)

Last time I heard it is around the $100,000 mark. And I would assume performance based raises are also in the mix.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Interesting points in here. But I was always led to believe that money was scarce as snake feathers for Olympic Archery. Would be nice to see the USOC / NAA budget numbers. I'm actually more interested in the percentage of the overall budget spent on JOAD than anything else.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

*a few thoughts*

no coach Lee with Vic?? 
don't over think it...I would believe Vic just wanted someone to talk him thru the match in a manner he wanted, to over come the crowd noise...

as for instant results, talent pool etc....face it other countries pour money into sport at every level...basically growing the "talent pool" and it takes time. But other countries just hope a few with talent make it all the way....

In my experience, in southern Ontario, archery as a sport or recreation is not in favour now. In the 70's as a young teen I could walk to two different rec centers and shoot on different nights of the week, and the instructor was paid like a life guard at a pool! One of the shooters at one of the these rec center clubs went on to represent Canada internationally. But now only the private club system exists...in my opinion it's one quarter the size of the rec system in the 70's, and I think also the scouting of talent now is reduced. Others may have a way to explain the change over time but after returning to archery after 20+ years it's very appearent to me now in comparison.

Okay, so that's the sad side today, but what do we want! grow the sport? grow contenders? then get people involved, everyone bring a friend, be a volunteer, give a kid a bow and teach them how to use it! show them the pleasure of the flight of the arrow, break some balloons, show them the gratification of their actions. It's instant results and to a 7 yr old it's memorable, get your club to have a kids only shoot and make it fun, guarenteed they will want to go back ...then when they are 18 maybe the talent pool is deep enough for a couch like Lee to work with them.

just my opinions and not a rant, more like a dream... decide for yourself is it possible? if so contribute in someway...and dream


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

HoytIT said:


> Last time I heard it is around the $100,000 mark. And I would assume performance based raises are also in the mix.


I don't know what Lee is paid, but if it's just 100k he is way underpaid. Lee is one of the very best coaches in the world and the national head coach of a first rate country, the USA. Third World countries pay their coaches better than the "B.E.S.T" country in the world. 

It's funny how 2 or 3 trolls can get some good discussion going by saying some uninformed, ignorant things, then crawling back under their rocks. Lemonade from lemons


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

I think the part that is missed is that this is a sport and people don't have the frame of mind to wait. Everything is about what have you done lately? The thing Lee has against him is he has been here over a year with no better finishes than before and maybe worst(only 2 woman). I say that our team did ok and I will bet you they would tell you they were disapionted and didn't fell they shot as well as they could. 

We have to be real the us team has not scared anyone since 96. I don't fell that a national coach will help? How much can he help people who have jobs and can't live were he lives? I have no problem with a coach my dad has helped me a ton, but I lived with him. I just fell that the US is a hard place for a coach to make a real diffrence. So I have to say it's not all lee's falt just a tough situation. 

As for his record what makes him great? Rick come on Simon was a great shooter before he got there he may of helped a little and push him to come back. I just have to say he won a world championship before lee and that is I think a little tougher that a olympics I feel with the numbers of shooters not being limited. So were are the Aus. that he worked with now? If it is a program that was set up to make better than were is all the shooters that program should have. Just my thoughts 

Reo Wilde


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

cc46 said:


> no coach Lee with Vic??
> don't over think it...I would believe Vic just wanted someone to talk him thru the match in a manner he wanted, to over come the crowd noise...
> 
> as for instant results, talent pool etc....face it other countries pour money into sport at every level...basically growing the "talent pool" and it takes time. But other countries just hope a few with talent make it all the way....
> ...


Your experiences in Ontario largely mirror my own. You have a slight advantage in being in metro with access to the OSC range. Otherwise finding even a "local" club can be a daunting task.
We fight against the PC crowd which has lumped archery in with firearms as a real evil and public menace, hence the closing of Hart house eliminating yet another metro range.
The COC has done absolutely nothing to enhance the image of Archery among the general population and it is largely an orphaned sport. Add to that the 18K per year that an athlete could possibly get from them (increased from 10k) and for an archer to get in the hours and coaching required to compete at a medal level they need a full time job, and therefore the practice regimen suffers. God help them if they are married or heaven forbid have kid's, it becomes an almost insufferable financial burden to work to a competitive level. Affording a Coach Lee (assuming we do not have a capable homegrown talent) is not even in the COC vocabulary.

I fear that the COC's lacklustre performance is a major detriment to anyone wishing to take a run at the Olympics and that makes the discipline a very hard sell to youngsters looking to build dreams. 

Encourage participation in the sport for sure and get kids shooting because they love it. If Olympic dreams are your goal we had better hope that some of these kids are sons and daughters of CEO's and VP's that's the only way we will get competitive on the international scene in force.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Reo said:


> I think the part that is missed is that this is a sport and people don't have the frame of mind to wait. Everything is about what have you done lately? The thing Lee has against him is he has been here over a year with no better finishes than before and maybe worst(only 2 woman). I say that our team did ok and I will bet you they would tell you they were disapionted and didn't fell they shot as well as they could.
> 
> We have to be real the us team has not scared anyone since 96. I don't fell that a national coach will help? How much can he help people who have jobs and can't live were he lives? I have no problem with a coach my dad has helped me a ton, but I lived with him. I just fell that the US is a hard place for a coach to make a real diffrence. So I have to say it's not all lee's falt just a tough situation.
> 
> ...


Reo…You make some very good points. Let’s look at the men’s recurve in the US in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s. We dominated the archery world just as most of the US compound archers do today. Most of these top archers, such as James Caspers, Joe Thorton, Ray Rogers, Hardy Ward, John Williams, Darrell Pace and ….me…. :darkbeer: did not have a “professional” coach. We all did it the old fashioned way, we worked, we shot (part time), we won. Look at how similar the US Compound world is today in comparison. Not much difference. So what happened to the US recurve archers? Well, most of them still do it the way you indicate. They have their dads, their friend or someone else give them a little guidance and they are not even close to the level of today’s Olympic archers. The rest of the world is using professional coaches. They train full time, they are funded so they can travel, compete and learn the skills that are necessary to compete in today’s type of Olympic archery. Now, I know you are thinking…”What about Morgan Lundin? ….and others who are competitive with you guys. Well we had the same. Victor Sidoruk (sp?) of the former Soviet Union won in 1973, Kyosti Lassonenn (sp?) of Finland won in 1981. These are World Target Championships by the way. But suffice it to say, the US dominated. The Men’s team won every World Team title from 1959 through 1983. Not a bad run….However the rest of the world caught up because of the Olympics and professional coaching. 

Now about Simon Fairweather. I competed against Simon in 1991 when he won. He won out of shear strength and he shot great. However, his career was over. If you question that, look up his results after 1991. When I saw him again in 2000 at the Olympics his form was completely overhauled and he was not the same archer as in 1991. The only similarity was his winning spirit and mental capabilities. That’s why I have indicated in the past that Lee is looking for champion type archers. It is far easier to make equipment and form changes than it is the mental attitude adjustment needed by most. And….the Olympics are an entirely different beast than the World Championships. I can attest to the difference. Only a handful have experienced what the difference is between the two. But they will state that the Olympics generates an incredible stress unlike anything you will experience. You better be prepared mentally. Also, the World comes every two years and there is very little publicity compared to the Olympics which comes every four years I can only tell you that the Olympics is the most pressure packed event an archer can ever experience. 

Now you bring up the RA’s and their lack of success. Well, since most of the top archers refused to make the changes, Lee had to recruit archers who were not “internationally” competitive as of yet. When the “Dream Team” matures over the next few years and if some “very” top archers move to the training center and train full time, you just might see a major shift in our archers. He did get Karen and Khatuna to move out there, but for only a year or a bit less. Brady is on his way and I see great things for him in the future if he keeps his focus.

In the early 1980’s I told many of our top recurve archers of what needed to happen. That was to get young archers in the program (not married, not working), have them train full time and have someone work with them throughout a four year program. Obviously I was not a very popular guy. That’s why I developed the RA program in the mid-80’s. Why I got the USOC to fund the program and hire an “Administrative” coach to run the program. The idea was there. We just did not have the right leadership to make it all work right, nor did we have Board support of the program. That's another story... :zip:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Reo…You make some very good points. Let’s look at the men’s recurve in the US in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s. We dominated the archery world just as most of the US compound archers do today. Most of these top archers, such as James Caspers, Joe Thorton, Ray Rogers, Hardy Ward, John Williams, Darrell Pace and ….me…. :darkbeer: did not have a “professional” coach. We all did it the old fashioned way, we worked, we shot (part time), we won. Look at how similar the US Compound world is today in comparison. Not much difference. So what happened to the US recurve archers? Well, most of them still do it the way you indicate. They have their dads, their friend or someone else give them a little guidance and they are not even close to the level of today’s Olympic archers. The rest of the world is using professional coaches. They train full time, they are funded so they can travel, compete and learn the skills that are necessary to compete in today’s type of Olympic archery. Now, I know you are thinking…”What about Morgan Lundin? ….and others who are competitive with you guys. Well we had the same. Victor Sidoruk (sp?) of the former Soviet Union won in 1973, Kyosti Lassonenn (sp?) of Finland won in 1981. These are World Target Championships by the way. But suffice it to say, the US dominated. The Men’s team won every World Team title from 1959 through 1983. Not a bad run….However the rest of the world caught up because of the Olympics and professional coaching.
> 
> Now about Simon Fairweather. I competed against Simon in 1991 when he won. He won out of shear strength and he shot great. However, his career was over. If you question that, look up his results after 1991. When I saw him again in 2000 at the Olympics his form was completely overhauled and he was not the same archer as in 1991. The only similarity was his winning spirit and mental capabilities. That’s why I have indicated in the past that Lee is looking for champion type archers. It is far easier to make equipment and form changes than it is the mental attitude adjustment needed by most. And….the Olympics are an entirely different beast than the World Championships. I can attest to the difference. Only a handful have experienced what the difference is between the two. But they will state that the Olympics generates an incredible stress unlike anything you will experience. You better be prepared mentally. Also, the World comes every two years and there is very little publicity compared to the Olympics which comes every four years I can only tell you that the Olympics is the most pressure packed event an archer can ever experience.
> 
> ...


We really need to get your post count up!:wink:

Thanks for that enlightening post.

I would be interesting to see your comments on this article with regards to an overall strategic approach toward the Olympics.

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/sports/article.jsp?content=20080806_83881_83881&page=1


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## toptox (Jul 9, 2008)

Rick McKinney said:


> We dominated the archery world just as most of the US compound archers do today. Most of these top archers, such as James Caspers, Joe Thorton, Ray Rogers, Hardy Ward, John Williams, Darrell Pace and ….me…. :darkbeer: did not have a “professional” coach. We all did it the old fashioned way, we worked, we shot (part time), we won.


Hi Rick, minor niggle but who was this guy Al Henderson that has your baby face plastered all over the pages of his book :wink:

Gary


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> From what I remember, the ripples were made by thoses who were jealous and angry that an "outsider" was hired to come in and revamp the "system", not over salary. If salary wasn't an issue, then why did you bring it up in ALL CAPS? To someone making minimum wage, a salary of $10.00 an hour may seem QUITE LARGE.


I didn't bring it up - others did. I agreed with what they said in that case. Those people are in place to know the exact answer and I see no reason to disbelieve them even if they never have informed me (or anyone who might have felt like replying) the exact salary. I recall - and find it not to hard to find even here - people who do know such a thing that agree that he is payed a lot. I know of at least one person that didn't make Bejing but is ostensibly on the team talk about his percentage of the budget and it isn't terribly secret that Easton kicks in quite a large sum of money (no matter what you compare too). As such I feel quite justified in using all caps on the word "very".

That his salary is high isn't really in dispute in any forum I know of (real life forums or online ones). I recall many complaining about it too, but I also recall the ones defending it not disputing his large salary.



> People are mad because we have a "National Training System" and the days of hodge podge training methods and shooting styles that differ drastically from one coach to the next are fading. Today's society is oriented toward "instant gratification" and if something doesn't produce instant results we want to throw it out and get something new that will supposedly produce those results faster. This attitude bleeds over into sports, unfortunatly.


I highly agree with you there - never did disagree. I think there are other reasons why people do that too and is up to the individual. I rather suspect that resistance to change and jealously is a large part of the hatred we see too.



> The fortunate side of all of this is the performance of the Jr. Dream Team Program. Those results at the SI Cup, JOAD Nationals, Target Nationals and Jr. World Team Trials speak for themselves. The BEST Method is making a big difference there and in 4 years I think we'll be more than happy with the results.


Once more - right there. Lee has a great track record and no reason to think it will be different here. You are preaching to the choir on that part. The only ones that he has had enough time to work on are dominating the sport, or are at least competing at the same level of the others that dominate it. Like has been said - I look forward to 2012 and 2016 (if for nothing else I get to finally watch the event too).


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## DanceswithDingo (Feb 24, 2004)

Well if you folks are all finished with Coach Lee, would you mind sending him back downunder please? :darkbeer:


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> So what happened to the US recurve archers? Well, most of them still do it the way you indicate. They have their dads, their friend or someone else give them a little guidance and they are not even close to the level of today’s Olympic archers. The rest of the world is using professional coaches.


I don't know if you meant it this way too, but this is important not just at the top end. The US military realized a long time ago that the "middle management" is what makes the game. 

In the US most archers do not want instruction or coaching, they already know how. They are more than happy for both in other sports, but in archery? Nope, having none of that as they already "shoot good".

Then there is also the certification courses. There has been a HUGE amount of improvement there IMO. I consider myself an above-average/good instructor but a mediocre coach and the only reason I move above "crappy" on the coach level has been mostly reading my fathers shotgun coaching literature. Things have been changing in the last few years - I've started to see much of the ideas that made me "mediocre" over "crappy" move into the lower level certifications and that is great. In my case I should be looking at level III certification but I can't afford the money or time commitment for a level II let alone where I should be going. However IMO I really should be looking at level II at most if it works the way I think it should.

Again, I see a HUGE amount of improvement there and I am not disparaging those that are putting the work in, I'm willing to bet that most are putting that work in because they see the same thing I say and can do it. I have a great deal of respect for those doing that and it is generally a thankless job of moving a group to where it needs to be after that many years of doing things, well, wrong. I also think things are moving towards what I think should happen - or at least close enough for me to not care.

I would like to learn more but for me I now have to spend a week and money I don't have or, as I have been doing, learning by doing. My goals are if I ever find a kid who is good enough to truly compete is to get them to where someone with real coaching experience will take them - but that is hard. Again in archery the "good ole boys syndrome" is in full swing. I see the few good archers picked off by people who have no business coaching and nearly ruin a kid. It's hard to convince a kid that hard work and dedication are needed when someone else tells them that 280 NFAA is a golden world class score with an open class compound.

Many other sports have it MUCH easier to get to middle management and that will pay off dividends in the long run. At some point those sports also kill the "good ole boys" network because their kids dominate the tournaments - those ole boys don't like it either and fight the changes with everything they have.

I think that Mr Falks post about instant gratification fits in there too - the good ole boys group tells them that their 280 NFAA indoor round is peachy keen top notch shooting while I tell them they can be truly competitive if the worked at it. I've seen some real cognitive dissonance set in with kids talking about placing "second at nationals" when they were second in flight 4. They know what they really placed but can get away with saying what they do. But then I'm not so sure those kids have the mental setup needed for truly top end shooting anyway even if they have a great deal of talent.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks Rick, for your insight...it is always appreciated.

I think in the past we were up on the bell curve, it has now caught up with us. It takes something "special" within to win today. Talent aside, attitude is everything.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Gary,
All Henderson was one of the better coaches the US ever had IMO. I am not sure if many people remember, but Al was chosen to be our first Olympic Coach in 1972, but FITA refused to accept him because he was a "professional". The board had to choose another which allowed Bud Fowkes to come on board. Al did get to coach the 1976 team. Just a side note. 

There are are arguably two type of coaches in the US. The first is the individual coach. He/she usually can even be a father or mother or wife or girl/boy friend. They are more of a manager and coach than they are just a coach. They could be considered a mentor as well. This person is one who works with the archer not only in their shooting but in their training ideas, philosophy, personal life, etc. There are lots of them out there and good ones at that. Now a Team Coach is an entirely different person. That person already has a manager who will take care of the little details and deal with the archer's personality when off the field. The Team Coach is one who travels with the team and finds ways to make the team work well together and individually. I can assure you that some personal coaches are horrible at being a team coach. Al Henderson was more of a personal coach but fully understood what was needed to be a team coach. Darrell Pace and I both can attest to Al's competency. The only other top coach I know of in the US that fully understands what a team needs is Sheri Rhodes. Others were learning the trade such as Frank Thomas, Cindy Bevolaqua (sp?) just to mention a very few. However, this was derailed when Lee was hired and the program was virtually gutted out and started new with Lee at the helm. We are still not sure how it all will end up but you can see the makings of a pool of coaches in the High Performance program. It just takes time to see how it will work. I am still confused as to the direction the Organization plans to go. You have the Certified Coaches and then you have the High Performance Coaches. Presumably the Certified coaches will be more of personal coaches and instructors while the High Performance coahes will be developed into team coaches. That is a huge guess on my part. :darkbeer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

Hate to throw a monkey wrench into this, but was this stuff common knowledge? (Sorry haven't read every post on this thread.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/s...ery.html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y&oref=slogin

Viper1 out.


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Hate to throw a monkey wrench into this, but was this stuff common knowledge? (Sorry haven't read every post on this thread.)
> 
> ...


Hummmmmm!!!!!


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Rick McKinney said:


> Gary,
> All Henderson was one of the better coaches the US ever had IMO. I am not sure if many people remember, but Al was chosen to be our first Olympic Coach in 1972, but FITA refused to accept him because he was a "professional". The board had to choose another which allowed Bud Fowkes to come on board. Al did get to coach the 1976 team. Just a side note.
> 
> There are are arguably two type of coaches in the US. The first is the individual coach. He/she usually can even be a father or mother or wife or girl/boy friend. They are more of a manager and coach than they are just a coach. They could be considered a mentor as well. This person is one who works with the archer not only in their shooting but in their training ideas, philosophy, personal life, etc. There are lots of them out there and good ones at that. Now a Team Coach is an entirely different person. That person already has a manager who will take care of the little details and deal with the archer's personality when off the field. The Team Coach is one who travels with the team and finds ways to make the team work well together and individually. I can assure you that some personal coaches are horrible at being a team coach. Al Henderson was more of a personal coach but fully understood what was needed to be a team coach. Darrell Pace and I both can attest to Al's competency. The only other top coach I know of in the US that fully understands what a team needs is Sheri Rhodes. Others were learning the trade such as Frank Thomas, Cindy Bevolaqua (sp?) just to mention a very few. However, this was derailed when Lee was hired and the program was virtually gutted out and started new with Lee at the helm. We are still not sure how it all will end up but you can see the makings of a pool of coaches in the High Performance program. It just takes time to see how it will work. I am still confused as to the direction the Organization plans to go. You have the Certified Coaches and then you have the High Performance Coaches. Presumably the Certified coaches will be more of personal coaches and instructors while the High Performance coahes will be developed into team coaches. That is a huge guess on my part. :darkbeer:


Rick, I had heard that Mr. Henderson won something like 6 or 8 world championships, 3-4 right handed and 3-4 left handed. He had both bows sitting behind the line and would pick one up depending on which he felt like shooting that time around.


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

Rick I think you are pretty close to right in the fact that some of it is the same. People still work and shoot. The big change is all the help that the recurve shooters get and I feel it makes them not as hungry. With all the grant money and all the trips and money lo live in certain places don't help. Last I found I didn't or Dave C. got no help if we didn't Win wich will make you work harder and a lot more hungry than if you just get given stuff. Look at you and all the past shooters to get good suport you had to win. I just fell that we need to make them more like the old days and like the US compounds win or go hungry. No grant money or funding to live some were will make them hungry and bring some younger blood in to play for that stuff.

Just my thoughts
Reo


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

I'm not real sure what is being referred to with funding, but if it's out there, we've not found it. So far, I've flown mine to CA 5 times, bought all of her equipment (with exception of some help she's gotten from a couple very gracious sponsors), put about 4000 miles on my car for tournaments, spent a lot of money on range fees, hotel fees, gas, and now I get to look forward to sending her to Turkey. Any money she raises is going to be on her individual effort (and mine) from private donations out of the generosity of their hearts.....not given to her because she's involved in the NAA or any other organization.

Unlike compounds, there is NO money to be won or given away in Olympic recurve, so I'm not real sure where you're getting grant money. In my opinion, those that have earned the stipends (only direct NAA support I know of, and reserved for the Olympians this year) have very little reward for the effort they have put forth. :wink:


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Barb, I don't believe that Al was on any World FITA Teams. But someone can correct me if that is not true. 

Reo, Thanks for the comments but I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. Top athletes (including top archers) will do what it takes to get there. This funding you mention is some help for a few BUT very few. And it still does not cover most of the expenses. Very rarely is money the issue for the best. They do it because they are driven to be the best and nothing will stand in their way. Although extreme, take Michael Phelps for instance. He was a millionaire before these Olympics. Why would he do it again since he had plenty of money? He already had more than he had before 2004. Why did Bret Farve cry when he was retiring? Because he was going to loose all those millions of dollars? He loved the game. The money was just icing on the cake!  I could use other examples but I think you get my point.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> Barb, I don't believe that Al was on any World FITA Teams. But someone can correct me if that is not true.
> 
> Reo, Thanks for the comments but I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. Top athletes (including top archers) will do what it takes to get there. This funding you mention is some help for a few BUT very few. And it still does not cover most of the expenses. Very rarely is money the issue for the best. They do it because they are driven to be the best and nothing will stand in their way. Although extreme, take Michael Phelps for instance. He was a millionaire before these Olympics. Why would he do it again since he had plenty of money? He already had more than he had before 2004. Why did Bret Farve cry when he was retiring? Because he was going to loose all those millions of dollars? He loved the game. The money was just icing on the cake!  I could use other examples but I think you get my point.




Ahh...only in America can a swimmer who is only seen 2 weeks every 4 years become a millonaire. If we can figure out how to merge archery with swimming...hmmm


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## toptox (Jul 9, 2008)

Reo said:


> Rick I think you are pretty close to right in the fact that some of it is the same. People still work and shoot. The big change is all the help that the recurve shooters get and I feel it makes them not as hungry. With all the grant money and all the trips and money lo live in certain places don't help. Last I found I didn't or Dave C. got no help if we didn't Win wich will make you work harder and a lot more hungry than if you just get given stuff. Look at you and all the past shooters to get good suport you had to win. I just fell that we need to make them more like the old days and like the US compounds win or go hungry. No grant money or funding to live some were will make them hungry and bring some younger blood in to play for that stuff.
> 
> Just my thoughts
> Reo


Reo,

I have to agree with what Rick said. I spoke to one of the RAs a few months ago and was asking about how the program works. Although they get room and board etc. the stipend they get is so small it would make a college student wince! This particular RA had put a profitable business venture on hold to participate in the program. The RAs have to show progress to remain in the program (I think he said 9 months) so potential candidate archers are constantly being cycled through - no opportunity to not be hungry.

Gary


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Quit recruiting participants from within... advertise Brady to the youth market through the media. He should have a sports agent and a publicist.


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## toptox (Jul 9, 2008)

Rick McKinney said:


> Barb, I don't believe that Al was on any World FITA Teams. But someone can correct me if that is not true.


My dog-eared first edition of Al's book has a 2 page biography that lists lots of activities and awards but none of them are for shooting or team membership. This book had a big impact on my shooting when I got my copy. 

Gary


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Barb, I don't believe that Al was on any World FITA Teams. But someone can correct me if that is not true.
> 
> Reo, Thanks for the comments but I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. Top athletes (including top archers) will do what it takes to get there. This funding you mention is some help for a few BUT very few. And it still does not cover most of the expenses. Very rarely is money the issue for the best. They do it because they are driven to be the best and nothing will stand in their way. Although extreme, take Michael Phelps for instance. He was a millionaire before these Olympics. Why would he do it again since he had plenty of money? He already had more than he had before 2004. Why did Bret Farve cry when he was retiring? Because he was going to loose all those millions of dollars? He loved the game. The money was just icing on the cake!  I could use other examples but I think you get my point.


I'm really not sure about this issue. Sure there are those so driven they will find a way to make it happen, but in archery they are very few and far between. Either there are more out there that give up during the process or the sport just does not attract them. 

If we are going to look at hiring outside coaches perhaps we should look at the foreign training and financial support regimens of winning countries as well.

A time element comes into it as well. Can you become a world beating shooter in todays competitive climate and still find time to finance yourself? Or does that top notch dedication to the discipline require absolute attention to the exclusion of all else?

What does it take to build a world beating archer from the ground up in todays Olympic arena?


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## Spots_N_Dots (Nov 10, 2005)

I'm finding this post quite interesting indeed.

As to the original purpose of the post, why no Lee? I think we have just reached a point in most recent posts. There is no love lost between the archers in question and Mr. Lee. I would imagine, had they wanted Lee there, he would have been there. There are archers in this country that feel they don't need to change, because they are already good. Talk about getting in the way of progress?

This latest news is interesting indeed. The article provided about separation of religion and sports may bring some interesting developments over the coming years. For some reason I thought there was some serious religious beliefs there, I had no idea it was that overpowering. 

As for the money in the sport.........WHAT money? There is no money in recurve archery......not even that much in compound. The suggestion of modeling the rest of the archery program after the rest of the successful archery world is probably the closest idea to get things right than anyone else. Fund raising abilities within the NAA have gone down the toilet. The job of a college president is to raise funds and seek donations. His job depends on his ability to do that, as should the NAA's president's.


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## Reo (May 23, 2002)

The thing about the title of the post is right it has got off on another subject. The reason I think is that the feeling is that lee wasn't there for some reason. 

Rick I was wrong Vic does make his living shooting and I think that his placement in the Olympics shows. I think you are right and hungry may not be the right term. He is forced to preform and if he doesn't he will have to find a new way of life. Pro's have this problem sometimes too look at them on contract years and noncontract years. If the money is not just there they preform better. 

I think that if we look back at olympics there were other times the coachs were not be hind the shooter. I know in Atlanta the coach that the NAA sent was in the stands. The thing that we need to look at is there is a reason and I don't know till I talk to them. 

I also think there was a guy that coached at to games that was left out that list of great coachs. He was there for 2 golds and one silver and a bronz. Who is this guy and we all think lee is so good and doesn't have that many medals.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Spots_N_Dots said:


> I'm finding this post quite interesting indeed.
> There are archers in this country that feel they don't need to change, because they are already good. Talk about getting in the way of progress?


That sounds like a knock on Butch and Vic. If they get beaten in competition, then maybe, just maybe they'll consider changing their shot. As it stands, they beat all other comers to get to the Games. 
Seems to me that there were lots of effective archers at the Olympics. Who wants to change the gold medalist form of Ruban??? He had the most effective form for this Olympic Games.
So now I'll hijack the thread a bit by asking: What are the must haves in the shot cycle versus what is acceptable personal modification?
I would hazard to guess that Coach Lee and all effective coaches, look at a student and work around body type and other individual idiosyncrasies.


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## Spots_N_Dots (Nov 10, 2005)

> Seems to me that there were lots of effective archers at the Olympics. Who wants to change the gold medalist form of Ruban??? He had the most effective form for this Olympic Games.


The old thumb behind the neck and shake like mad to get the shot to go off 

That was not intended as a knock on Butch or Vic. I do, however, have a feeling that is the case....I can't blame them for their beliefs. If they are the better shooter, and they may very well be, a couple form changes won't hold them up mutch at all. I do believe there is an element of tallent required for OR, and these guys undoubtedly have it. I personally look for strong points of all forms.

I'm not an advocate for any particular form. I do think Lee has his good points though.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Spots_N_Dots said:


> The old thumb behind the neck and shake like mad to get the shot to go off
> 
> That was not intended as a knock on Butch or Vic. I do, however, have a feeling that is the case....I can't blame them for their beliefs. If they are the better shooter, and they may very well be, a couple form changes won't hold them up mutch at all. I do believe there is an element of tallent required for OR, and these guys undoubtedly have it. I personally look for strong points of all forms.
> 
> I'm not an advocate for any particular form. I do think Lee has his good points though.


Certain commonalities exist in any winning form, and the BEST system may not be the best… only time will tell. 

I understand the need for continuity in training methods, but each archer is different both physically and mentally and those who fail to fit the mold as designed by Coach Lee are going to get the short end of the stick under the current system.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

JAVI said:


> Certain commonalities exist in any winning form, and the BEST system may not be the best… only time will tell.
> 
> I understand the need for continuity in training methods, but each archer is different both physically and mentally and those who fail to fit the mold as designed by Coach Lee are going to get the short end of the stick under the current system.


Aye there's the rub with single source coaching in a national environment by attempting to fit the archer to the coach you are essentially limiting the talent pool from which to draw.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Hutnicks said:


> Aye there's the rub with single source coaching in a national environment by attempting to fit the archer to the coach you are essentially limiting the talent pool from which to draw.


It isn't just the archers who are being culled for not fitting the mold.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

JAVI said:


> Certain commonalities exist in any winning form, and the BEST system may not be the best… only time will tell.
> 
> I understand the need for continuity in training methods, but each archer is different both physically and mentally and those who fail to fit the mold as designed by Coach Lee are going to get the short end of the stick under the current system.


While I understand your concern, I must point out that this is not gymnastics where judges' prejudices can decide a winner. Each archer will be judged solely by points-per-end in competition, be it the Olympics or the Olympic Trials. Simply due to that fact, I am willing to wager that shooting styles will continue to vary amongst the Olympic Team archers (unless all of the archers adopt the B.E.S.T. technique in its entirety) and that the only mold one will have to fit into will be being able to outshoot the rest of the field.

If memory serves, there have been more than a few walk-on's on the United States Olympic Archery Team. Unless the B.E.S.T. technique truly is a panacea for every archer or the United States adopts the "Sports Army" approach to developing Olympic-caliber athletes, I imagine we will continue to see homegrown talent beating the field at the Trials and representing the United States at the Olympics. And that talent will be shooting whatever style works for them, be it the B.E.S.T. technique, a hybrid, or something completely unique.

PC-


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

JAVI said:


> It isn't just the archers who are being culled for not fitting the mold.


There are some principles to BEST Method that must be followed, but there is plenty of room for individual technique too. That is allowed BTW.


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

JAVI said:


> It isn't just the archers who are being culled for not fitting the mold.


Does Lee have that much power? I was under the impression that we chose our athletes based on their rankings in a set of prelims. 

I've never bothered to read the actual rules (no real reason for me too and, as such, I would most likely forget them quickly) but can he truly cut the top person out of the Olympics because he doesn't like their form?

The only thing I have ever heard was from one person on the paralympic team saying Lee didn't have much interest in him because he physically couldn't shoot BEST. He said he was a nice guy and still tried to help but probably spent more time playing with the archers helper dogs. Really kinda neutral as far as I was concerned (the individual in question there seemed to be neutral as far as coaching and liked the guy personally, but I didn't push for information).

It seems to me, at least with this years Olympics, that we had a system in place to pick the top archers that were seeking Olympic gold - not who the head coach liked the best. Further it seems we had a coach more interested in winning that fanning his ego and allowed them to do mostly do as they wished since they were not really his students.

I'll agree with McKinney again (how can I not ) as I am not sure how the thing will end up. I, personally, like that the system is becoming more cohesive and that we are starting to look at what I called "middle management". I also agree with him on the difference between an individual coach and a team coach (as I said, I consider myself a mediocre coach - I have no idea how to even begin with a team). There are some individuals doing a great job of trying to get level II's out there (Mr Faulks is one) and I would like to see an effort to make a level III more common that it is (but then - what is that saying - "here you go, have at it". I'm only sitting here complaining and not fixing).

I'm not a terrible big fan of the BEST system myself - for me it causes a great deal of shoulder pain and I know others that it does also - but as far as "coaching" goes most of that is fairly sport independent. I think we do fairly well on knowledgeable instructors, if one wants to find one they aren't usually too hard to find. I think we would be better off if USAArchery also listed level II's, but that is fairly minor. We have a serious lack of coaches and a way to get them trained/certified. 

My father is a level I Olympic shotgun coach - never had to leave the county to get it. The NRA/NSSF holds a class every year and - if coaching a Scholastic Clays Trap team - it is payed for by a grant entity and/or some instructors donate time. It's time commitment is structured around people who have a job and they are fairly commonly held (if you just want it for yourself it cost around 600 or so dollars when he gained his certification). 

Ahh well, I think we are moving towards a better system in this regards. It usually takes a good 5-10 years to get things rolling if most support it. Archery seems to be one of the cheapest groups of people I have ever seen, and the most resistant to any change whatsoever. There is a good deal of money in archery - Easton kicks in quite a bit. However it seems to currently be spent on creating an infrastructure to bring people along - instructor/coach training, programs (like ASAP), and cheap training equipment for said programs. I would guess that once that gets put in place then it will be cheaper to get to an olympic level - but then that is never cheap. 

They had an interview with Shawn Johnson's parents (the second best US gymnastics female) and they were talking about their *third* mortgage on their house along with as nearly all their "extra" yearly income to get there. So even in the top end funding sports it costs a HUGE amount, I wonder how many archer's parents took out two extra mortgages to get their kid to the Olympics? Not that any that haven't are bad for not doing so (I can't really imagine the confidence needed to do that - I wonder how many did just that or more and didn't even make the team let alone medal) but that having to pay a large sum for your kid doesn't have *that* much to do with the funding available. That funding usually goes to something other than the athletes personal expenses - especially in cases where the athlete doesn't have an individual sponsorship. So, even if Archery's funding was increased to the truly top tier those complaining would still spend about the same. Heck the gymnastics people don't even seem to have a "national coach" that prospective Olympiads can utilize - they all had their own personal one.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Reo said:


> I also think there was a guy that coached at to games that was left out that list of great coachs. He was there for 2 golds and one silver and a bronz. Who is this guy and we all think lee is so good and doesn't have that many medals.


I think Coach Lee's record speaks for its self.

Lee was the Korean National Archery Champion in 1975 and 1979 and broke the national record 26 times during his shooting career in Korea. He served as the Korean National Men’s Team Coach from 1981-1984 and again in 1990. He was the National Women’s Team Coach from 1986-1989. 

Mr. Lee was appointed Korean National Head Coach in 1991, a position he held until 1996. He was an Olympic Coach for Korea in 1984 and 1988 and was Head Coach of the Korean Olympic Team at Barcelona in 1992 and Atlanta in 1996. 

Mr. Lee was appointed Australian National Coach and Australian Institute of Sport (AIS) Head Coach in 1997. He coached Sydney Olympic Gold Medalist, Simon Fairweather, and other members of the Australian team at the 2000 Games. Mr. Lee coached the Australian team again in the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, Greece, where Aussie archer Tim Cuddihy won a bronze medal and set an Olympic record score in the semi-finals. 

Coach Lee’s archers have won 23 medals in World Championships during the past 15 years. He has never taken a team to an Olympics and not returned with a medal. His athletes have won 9 of the 22 Olympic gold medals awarded in archery in the past 20 years. This is a more outstanding achievement than almost any coach in any Olympic sport. 

Coach Lee has a bachelor’s and master’s degree in Physical Education. He has served as a director of shooting for major international events, as president, director and chairman of judges for the Korean Archery Association (KAA) and has been a keynote speaker at many archery seminars around the world.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

bdca said:


> The new USA Archery Coach Uniform??


Cheap Shot.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Folks -

Sorry, but given the possibility. however remote (and I personally, I don't think it's that remote in this case) of a coach, ANY coach, using his position to promote his religious belief is deplorable. The article I referenced made me sick, even though it didn't surprise me given a little reading between the lines of some of Lee's earlier interviews. 

IMHO, that is a bigger issue than the other things that have been discussed so far. Certainly more so than any merits or fallacies of the "BEST" system.

Viper1 out.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

strcpy said:


> Does Lee have that much power? I'll agree with McKinney again (how can I not ) as I am not sure how the thing will end up. I, personally, like that the system is becoming more cohesive and that we are starting to look at what I called "middle management". I also agree with him on the difference between an individual coach and a team coach (as I said, I consider myself a mediocre coach - I have no idea how to even begin with a team). There are some individuals doing a great job of trying to get level II's out there (Mr Faulks is one) and I would like to see an effort to make a level III more common that it is (but then - what is that saying - "here you go, have at it". I'm only sitting here complaining and not fixing).
> 
> I'm not a terrible big fan of the BEST system myself - for me it causes a great deal of shoulder pain and I know others that it does also - but as far as "coaching" goes most of that is fairly sport independent. I think we do fairly well on knowledgeable instructors, if one wants to find one they aren't usually too hard to find. I think we would be better off if USAArchery also listed level II's, but that is fairly minor. We have a serious lack of coaches and a way to get them trained/certified.
> 
> ...


I think you make several good points in a single post. In response:

The Community Coach Course took 2 years to develop and implement and another year to validate by conducting 3 classes and certifying 28 Community Coaches. The course is a coaches course not an instructor trainer course like the level 2 1/2. There will be a Community Coach Course Leaders workshop Oct 23-26 at the CO Springs OTC to certify course facilitators. I'll post the link to the info later, it seems to have dissapeared from the USA Archery front page. Maybe we can certify a couple hundred new coaches that will begin serving as "middle management" in 2009.

There was a lot of shoulder pain in the beginning of BEST Mehod, but it seems to be subsiding now that the proper techniques are being learned. I think there was quite a bit of misunderstanding about how all of this was supposed to be done in the beginning. I know that if done as per the instructions we are using to teach the techniques now there is no shoulder pain.

I can't believe the amount of time, money and sacrafice that I wittness from parents in both USA Archery and ASA to advance their children in this sport. I imagine that it's no different in the "other 2" US orgs as well. Just to outfit a young archer with entry level equipment suitable for competition, appropriate clothing and optics can easily run over $2,000.00 and we hven't even started training yet. The travel to tournaments can run that much per trip. This proves to me that the desire and drive to acheive personal greatness is alive in the US today.

There is a US Gymnastics Team Coach, Mrs. Karoli (sp).

Again, I agree with you that change will come, albeit slowly, but we are already starting to see good results at the younger levels.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Folks -
> 
> Sorry, but given the possibility. however remote (and I personally, I don't think it's that remote in this case) of a coach, ANY coach, using his position to promote his religious belief is deplorable. The article I referenced made me sick, even though it didn't surprise me given a little reading between the lines of some of Lee's earlier interviews.
> 
> ...


I have to agree on some points here. Seperation of "Church and State" was such a core founding principle and has worked so well It makes me uneasy when I see the concept disregarded in any venue.

Openly promoting Christianity via a sport and through a commercial venture and particularly over other religions just seems totally inappropriate.

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/AboutUs/SportSpirituality.html


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Steven Cornell said:


> I think Coach Lee's record speaks for its self.
> 
> Coach Lee’s archers have won 23 medals in World Championships during the past 15 years. He has never taken a team to an Olympics and not returned with a medal.


I'll go ahead and say it first...

You have to edit this Steve:

"He never took a team to an Olympics and didn't return with a medal until 2008."

You know, the US scores have been falling for many years as compared to the top scores in the world. We can send a team to the Pan/Am games and cherry pick a few "W's" but that doesn't mean that we're a world power in archery any more. Winning a "least ugly" contest doesn't mean much when you finally have to go to the big dance.

So I recommend that if all y'all naysayers think you're "that good" then go out and train an olympian. You've got 4 years and if you can get some archer up to Gold Medal status maybe we'll be discussing how good you are, or are not, as National Head Coach on a thread like this someday.

Until then, let's go out and start training some archers for 2012 and either support the program or not. Just like the banner in the dining hall at the OTC says, "Every athlete has a dream. Every choice makes a difference." My dream is that we win some more Olympic Gold and I'm chosing to support the program and try to build an Olympic Archery Team for 2012 instead of constantly bickering for the next 4 years and ending up further behind than we are now.

LD


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Hutnicks said:


> I have to agree on some points here. Seperation of "Church and State" was such a core founding principle and has worked so well It makes me uneasy when I see the concept disregarded in any venue.
> 
> Openly promoting Christianity via a sport and through a commercial venture and particularly over other religions just seems totally inappropriate.
> 
> http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/AboutUs/SportSpirituality.html


Maybe Coach Lee's just been reading your signature line Hutnicks.

I think this is a great time for you and Viper to take a fact-finding tour to the OTC and give us a first-hand report on the progress of Christianity there. :wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

ldfalks said:


> Maybe Coach Lee's just been reading your signature line Hutnicks.
> 
> I think this is a great time for you and Viper to take a fact-finding tour to the OTC and give us a first-hand report on the progress of Christianity there. :wink:


I somehow doubt Shaw is in the KSL syllabus, don't you?


Frankly when I hear a presumtous phrase like "Divine Intervention" used in that context alarm bells start ringing.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> There are some principles to BEST Method that must be followed, but there is plenty of room for individual technique too. That is allowed BTW.



That's interesting considering what I've read and seen of the B.E.S.T. System. Exactly what individuality is allowed? 

I was advised that I “MUST” learn and “TEACH” the B.E.S.T. System or leave...


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

JAVI said:


> That's interesting considering what I've read and seen of the B.E.S.T. System. Exactly what individuality is allowed?
> 
> I was advised that I “MUST” learn and “TEACH” the B.E.S.T. System or leave...


Or leave...what? And who advised you? Where were you that you might have to leave?

Every RA on that field has slight differences in their individual form. Every Deam Team Archer has slight differences in their form. It's like anything else Mike, technique can vary, but the principles should be followed or the system won't work as advertised.

There's supposed to be a HP Camp at CO Springs in early Nov. It might be worthwhile to attend that. I plan to. Hopefully they'll get the flyer up ont the USAA web site soon.


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## bdca (Apr 9, 2007)

Steven Cornell said:


> Cheap Shot.


THe only cheap shot is that my meassge was removed. Free speech? I guess Lee is above criticisim and satire? What a crock!

I found the New York Times article DEEPLY DISTRUBING! Relgion has absolutely NO place in National Level organized sports, unless you would like to coach in Iran, Israel or other countries that do not have seperation of church and state.

I posted the picture of Sung Mung Moon to indicate that Korea has some strange takes on Christianity and who is to say exactly what is being preached in Chula Vista?

I would be as concerned if we had a coach who was a scientologist or any other similar "religion".

Cya!


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Here is a nice article for those who think archery is one rare sport that has a hard time finding funding for their kids....  It appears to be rampant in all sports. 

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co.../HighPriceofRaisingAnOlympian_serieshome.aspx

since this thread is getting heated about religion  I'll just exit. Great talking with you all! :wink:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> Or leave...what? And who advised you? Where were you that you might have to leave?
> 
> Every RA on that field has slight differences in their individual form. Every Deam Team Archer has slight differences in their form. It's like anything else Mike, technique can vary, but the principles should be followed or the system won't work as advertised.
> 
> There's supposed to be a HP Camp at CO Springs in early Nov. It might be worthwhile to attend that. I plan to. Hopefully they'll get the flyer up ont the USAA web site soon.


When I called last year to inquire about upgrading to a Level 3, I was told that I would have to learn to teach the B.E.S.T. System if I wanted to continue as an USAA instructor/coach.. 

Now to me that sounds as if I have no place in the USAA should I choose not to use the B.E.S.T system.

I have nothing against Lee or the Olympic program; I train very few re-curve archers and have no desire to do so, it is his ball game and his playing field for now so I no longer am a member.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> since this thread is getting heated about religion  I'll just exit. Great talking with you all! :wink:


Rick, please stay...


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Get back on topic*

:focus: We've gone far away from topic. No religion in this thread, please.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

bdca said:


> THe only cheap shot is that my meassge was removed. Free speech? I guess Lee is above criticisim and satire? What a crock!
> 
> I found the New York Times article DEEPLY DISTRUBING! Relgion has absolutely NO place in National Level organized sports, unless you would like to coach in Iran, Israel or other countries that do not have seperation of church and state.
> 
> ...



If you want to discuss religion and archery take it the correct forum. AT's missions statement is "Archers helping Archers". How was the posting of a potentialy offensive picture helping anyone. Enough said...


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

bdca said:


> THe only cheap shot is that my meassge was removed. Free speech? I guess Lee is above criticisim and satire? What a crock!
> 
> I found the New York Times article DEEPLY DISTRUBING! Relgion has absolutely NO place in National Level organized sports, unless you would like to coach in Iran, Israel or other countries that do not have seperation of church and state.


First Definition
Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other. The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise.

This has nothing to do about a government.

Second.
Believe it or not there are restrictions to freedom of speech in this country and in others. Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle.


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## Spots_N_Dots (Nov 10, 2005)

target1 said:


> :focus: We've gone far away from topic. No religion in this thread, please.


This thread has indeed ventured away from the intent. I do, however, respectfully disagree that the religion discussed has crossed the line. It is being discussed in the same sense here as our constitution discusses it, not the theology (that has no place in our high performance program, or this thread). I will say that it almost appears that Lee is using religion in the same sense as sports psychology though. 

That said, I leave it to you to kill the religion portion if you see fit to do so. Sorry to mention it after the fact.


Rick, please don't leave this thread. Your input adds a great deal to this thread.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

I have no problem if somone wants to start a new thread on religion and olympic archery...go for it.

Just not in this thread...it's called hijacking.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

JAVI said:


> When I called last year to inquire about upgrading to a Level 3, I was told that I would have to learn to teach the B.E.S.T. System if I wanted to continue as an USAA instructor/coach..
> 
> Now to me that sounds as if I have no place in the USAA should I choose not to use the B.E.S.T system.
> 
> I have nothing against Lee or the Olympic program; I train very few re-curve archers and have no desire to do so, it is his ball game and his playing field for now so I no longer am a member.


OK...sounds reasonable.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

target1 said:


> I have no problem if somone wants to start a new thread on religion and olympic archery...go for it.
> 
> Just not in this thread...it's called hijacking.


Yeah if we wanted to start a real controversy about religion we can argue whether Matthews is a better compound than Hoyt:wink:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Yeah if we wanted to start a real controversy about religion we can argue whether Matthews is a better compound than Hoyt:wink:


Or re-curve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Or re-curve




been shooting for decades-never have seen the "my bow is better than yours" nonsense in the recurve ranks. Of course you almost never see a matthews riser with hoyt wheels and limbs either. I see lots of people shooting hoyt risers with Samick limbs or Italian risers with WW limbs etc.


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## bdca (Apr 9, 2007)

target1 said:


> If you want to discuss religion and archery take it the correct forum. AT's missions statement is "Archers helping Archers". How was the posting of a potentialy offensive picture helping anyone. Enough said...


I agree and apologise for anything that may have been offensive.

Cya!


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Jim C said:


> been shooting for decades-never have seen the "my bow is better than yours" nonsense in the recurve ranks. Of course you almost never see a matthews riser with hoyt wheels and limbs either. I see lots of people shooting hoyt risers with Samick limbs or Italian risers with WW limbs etc.


Never see it at the higher levels of compound either... :wink:


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Ok…now that we have another thread on the religion, Lee and the Olympic Training Center issue, hopefully we can get back to discussing Lee’s coaching and Vic and Butch’s decision to have someone else in the coaches box at the Games. 

I heard that Vic and Butch had to shoot at the same time, thus it would have been impossible for Lee to be with both archers. He gave them a choice as to who would be with them. I talked with a couple of archers on the Olympic team before they left for the Games about this very issue. Some were a little uncomfortable with having a coach in the coach’s box that did not show 100% support over the past couple of years. Most of you have read some of the controversial threads over the past couple of years between some very top archers and efforts to force them out of their position or join the “new” program. This has been a very trying time for some of our elites. I for one had to deal with a coach whom I absolutely did not trust nor did I like during one of the World Championships I competed in. He refused to leave the coach’s box and I just had to deal with it. I did not deal with it very well. So I can sympathize with these archers. 

Now, as I said, Lee did a very fine thing by allowing the two guys to choose who they wanted. Butch wanting the old gray haired guy  and Vic wanting a fellow Olympian. Good choices for both. Some of you may think that I am supportive of Lee and his “Best” method and while others may be thinking that I am flip flopping. Well, I support the concept. We need a viable program here in the US. This guy just might be able to get us started in the right direction. Is the “Best” method the perfect solution? That can be argued, but it’s a good start. A lot of the “Best” system is nothing more than a little spin on classic archery. If you break it down and look at most of it you would be hard pressed to show where it differs except in a couple of key points. But if you look at those key points, then it can be modified to fit the archer so there are no shoulder issues. Also, realize that some of the changes recommended in the “Best” method require a major change in form that would cause shoulder issues or other muscle, joint type challenges. Especially here in the US since archers (and coaches) have been doing a horrible job at getting the archer to use good form. I was appalled at the form used by most archers about 5 years ago at the Reading, PA Nationals. It looked like most archers did everything they could to NOT use good form. It showed the degradation of the quality of form used here in the US compared to ten years before that. Now, with Lee’s program, I am starting to see better quality form used nation wide. This is a great start for us to get our archers back on track to become the champions they should be world wide. It will take time, but the big boat is turning around!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Here is a nice article for those who think archery is one rare sport that has a hard time finding funding for their kids....  It appears to be rampant in all sports.
> 
> http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co.../HighPriceofRaisingAnOlympian_serieshome.aspx
> 
> since this thread is getting heated about religion  I'll just exit. Great talking with you all! :wink:


I quite frankly don't see it that way. And it would be a shame to have you leave over this. The question raised was about a method of teaching and an element that seems to have found it's way into the toolkit in CV. Should it be a prt of the program or not? No different than recruiting young republicans or dictating a predilection for yoga or some other training method.

However as whenever this portion of the mix gets brought up it gets snuffed out quickly it's obviously taboo.

Pity that.

Adios!


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## Spots_N_Dots (Nov 10, 2005)

JAVI said:


> When I called last year to inquire about upgrading to a Level 3, I was told that I would have to learn to teach the B.E.S.T. System if I wanted to continue as an USAA instructor/coach..


If it's a problem with subscribing to the BEST method, then just coach, unless you need training. Last I knew, one doesn't need certification to spread their knowledge and help others.

Like Rick stated; Look at the method. The principals can be utilized.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Spots_N_Dots said:


> If it's a problem with subscribing to the BEST method, then just coach, unless you need training. Last I knew, one doesn't need certification to spread their knowledge and help others.
> 
> Like Rick stated; Look at the method. The principals can be utilized.


In my nearly 50 years of shooting a bow, I’ve seen many things come and go. I agree with Rick on the part about the B.E.S.T. system rehashing many of the same things seen from others. I talked to Bob Romero about it early on and while I use some of the biomechanical aspects, I disagree with other parts of the concept. As Rick and others have stated, I saw the potential of joint issues and physical difficulties in getting into the “FORM” from the time I began researching the Lee doctrine. 

As for teaching, I continue to help others whenever I can and I have maintained my affiliation with the NFAA, but as I was told that I must teach the B.E.S.T. system in order to remain as a USAA instructor I allowed my credentials to lapse.

Enough about me..

And as far as I'm concerned about Lee...


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## ewan (Aug 28, 2007)

Bye Rick, always a pleasure.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Sitting here watching the Olympics it occurred to me that I had not answered the real question that was the basis of this thread. 

As a competitive archer, I would want my personal coach in the box for my individual matches. If that were not an option then I would want a fellow archer who was familiar with both my mental game and my shot. I would rather have no one in the box, than someone who is not extremely familiar with my game. 

If I were the team coach, I would want someone in the box that could be inspirational and familiar enough with the archer’s mental and physical game to know what buttons to push and when to shut up…


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Someone like Rick (or Butch, or Vic, or really any Olympic archer for that matter) has nothing to gain and everything to lose by participating in discussions like these. 

I never had anything to lose, which is why I could post freely, and sometimes still do.

However, some of the posts on this thread have reminded me why I hardly even check in on AT anymore... 

For the few that know what they are talking about here, I miss seeing you guys...

John.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Someone like Rick (or Butch, or Vic, or really any Olympic archer for that matter) has nothing to gain and everything to lose by participating in discussions like these.
> 
> I never had anything to lose, which is why I could post freely, and sometimes still do.
> 
> ...


Yep...:wink:


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## JLorenti (Mar 17, 2004)

*Vic puzzled me....*

Vic's performance puzzled me the most. it seemed that he did not have trust in his shot the number of times he let down. to shoot consistently with only a couple of seconds left is something you choose to do no end up doing. i dont know if the lack of time left would cause vic to suspend i=his thought process what ever it was that was not allowing him to have trust in his shot and then he could execute a better shot.
it was very puzzling to me. An olympic silver medalist, and man of a great deal of experience and a man who subscribes to mental management and the like to apparently have such trust issue with sooooo many let downs. i just didnt get him at all .Dont know what was going on with him.
katuna having to yell at him to just "shoot the shot' type of thing tels me that he was having trust issues . Is Vic a perfectionist, which i know could lead to this mental state.
I know Butch and Know brady to some extent, theri shooting made sense to me, but i dont know vic at all and he puzzled me.


Why would this type of thing be happening to him, you think he could completely focus on his shot and make it without the need for the clock to almost run out to force him to refocus just on the execution of the shot.

Can someone give me a better understanding of the vic wunderle mind set and unusual performance.


Joe lorenti


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## JLorenti (Mar 17, 2004)

*Vic puzzled me....*

Vic's performance puzzled me the most. it seemed that he did not have trust in his shot the number of times he let down. to shoot consistently with only a couple of seconds left is something you choose to do, not end up doing. i dont know if the lack of time left would cause vic to suspend his thought process what ever it was, that was not allowing him to have trust in his shot, and then he could execute a better shot.
It was very puzzling to me. An olympic silver medalist, and man of a great deal of experience and a man who subscribes to mental management and the like to apparently have such trust issue with sooooo many let downs. i just didnt get him at all .Dont know what was going on with him.
katuna having to yell at him to just "shoot the shot' type of thing tels me that he was having trust issues . Is Vic a perfectionist, which i know could lead to this mental state. Unless he got himself into a mental state of great expectation. i cant explain his performance. bottom line is as long as you get there anything goes( and he did go farther than most) but it was very very unusual to say the least.
I know Butch and Know brady to some extent, theri shooting made sense to me, but i dont know vic at all and he puzzled me.


Why would this type of thing be happening to him, you think he could completely focus on his shot and make it without the need for the clock to almost run out to force him to refocus just on the execution of the shot.

Can someone give me a better understanding of the vic wunderle mind set and unusual performance.


Joe lorenti


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> The Community Coach Course took 2 years to develop and implement and another year to validate by conducting 3 classes and certifying 28 Community Coaches. The course is a coaches course not an instructor trainer course like the level 2 1/2. There will be a Community Coach Course Leaders workshop Oct 23-26 at the CO Springs OTC to certify course facilitators. I'll post the link to the info later, it seems to have dissapeared from the USA Archery front page. Maybe we can certify a couple hundred new coaches that will begin serving as "middle management" in 2009.


I would love to take one of those and I think the price is quite nice but I can't. But then that type of thing has to happen for a number of years before we can get to where I think we need. Someone, or someones, has to persevere for a number of years to get to that point. If I could afford it I would *love* to take one of those courses. Even then I don't know that I really have the drive to do what would be needed - this is a case of me proselytizing and I greatly respect any that take those extra steps.



> There was a lot of shoulder pain in the beginning of BEST Mehod, but it seems to be subsiding now that the proper techniques are being learned. I think there was quite a bit of misunderstanding about how all of this was supposed to be done in the beginning. I know that if done as per the instructions we are using to teach the techniques now there is no shoulder pain.


I think I understood the technique well enough to do it correctly and I have taught it to a few that never had the shoulder issue. I was told at the time that the pain would go away and it may very have after some time, but after enough years of other sports I learned what "good pain" and "bad pain" was and I was having bad pain. I most likely could have worked beyond it, and truth be told were I wanting to truly compete I would have (I obviously shot better using it - it was VERY stable), but that isn't really my goals in archery. I learned a long time ago (through the hard way) that bad pain was to be noticed, that even if one can "work through it" it wasn't really a good idea. I also started trying to do it in my 30's - I'm not near as adaptable as a 15 year old is either 

That being said I have a had a student or two that *naturally* did most of the BEST method. They never had the drive to really shoot (and both quit for other sports that they are also no longer doing) so I don't discount it. Plus were I ever to run into a kid who wanted to really compete in Olympic Archery and win golds you can bet I would teach it.

Heck, I will even assume I may be wrong, there just isn't enough data on long term effects of shooting the form. It hasn't really been around long enough in a large enough way to do so (hard to see what will happen with a few million shooting it for 50 years will be like). Even then I still use some of ideas expressed in it in my own shooting and everything I teach (recurve or compound), there are some parts that are BEST only yet most of it is just good archery that is set about in an effective easy to teach way.



> Again, I agree with you that change will come, albeit slowly, but we are already starting to see good results at the younger levels.


I highly look forward to it too, there are some *really* good young shooters out there that are benefiting from the work of some dedicated individuals out there.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Vic puzzled me....

Jlorneti. Actually Vic has a form of target panic, more like clicker panic. I dealt with it for years. Essentially, it is a point where you know too much of what can happen if you do it wrong. You start to think way too much and just when you anticipate the clicker to go off, it doesn't so you hold just a bit longer and then you have to stop and start again. It's a very frustrating situation, but many top archers go through it. When you are young, you truly are "fearless". When you get older and more mature, you get wise and this is the start of it. He can get over it and proved that he could on the pass against the Korean guy. But if you noticed it kept getting worse as he shot. When he won against the Korean it got even worse than before. These things happen and a good mental program could fix it, but it would take time. He has been slowly falling into this trap over the past several years. It just keeps getting worse. It's amazing he is performing as well as he does with this issue. If he fixed it, he would have easily won the Gold. He has that type of spirit.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Setting aside all the bickering, I'd like to thank both Rick and John for posting here. Getting the thoughts and point of view of archers who have actually been there is invaluable! Thanks for talking to us, the archery version of the great un-washed. (smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## archery_fan777 (Aug 18, 2008)

Rick McKinney said:


> Vic puzzled me....
> 
> Jlorneti. Actually Vic has a form of target panic, more like clicker panic. I dealt with it for years. Essentially, it is a point where you know too much of what can happen if you do it wrong. You start to think way too much and just when you anticipate the clicker to go off, it doesn't so you hold just a bit longer and then you have to stop and start again. It's a very frustrating situation, but many top archers go through it. When you are young, you truly are "fearless". When you get older and more mature, you get wise and this is the start of it. He can get over it and proved that he could on the pass against the Korean guy. But if you noticed it kept getting worse as he shot. When he won against the Korean it got even worse than before. These things happen and a good mental program could fix it, but it would take time. He has been slowly falling into this trap over the past several years. It just keeps getting worse. It's amazing he is performing as well as he does with this issue. If he fixed it, he would have easily won the Gold. He has that type of spirit.


Rick, how can this problem be cured? is it possible to overcome this problem and excel again?


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## archery_fan777 (Aug 18, 2008)

Rick McKinney said:


> Vic puzzled me....
> 
> Jlorneti. Actually Vic has a form of target panic, more like clicker panic. I dealt with it for years. Essentially, it is a point where you know too much of what can happen if you do it wrong. You start to think way too much and just when you anticipate the clicker to go off, it doesn't so you hold just a bit longer and then you have to stop and start again. It's a very frustrating situation, but many top archers go through it. When you are young, you truly are "fearless". When you get older and more mature, you get wise and this is the start of it. He can get over it and proved that he could on the pass against the Korean guy. But if you noticed it kept getting worse as he shot. When he won against the Korean it got even worse than before. These things happen and a good mental program could fix it, but it would take time. He has been slowly falling into this trap over the past several years. It just keeps getting worse. It's amazing he is performing as well as he does with this issue. If he fixed it, he would have easily won the Gold. He has that type of spirit.


my question is out of topic and not about "no coach lee, etc." what kind of mental program can he;lp fix this? how can this problem be permanently cured? how often should mental training be?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

archery_fan777 said:


> Rick, how can this problem be cured? is it possible to overcome this problem and excel again?


Many archers go through what is more like anticipatory fear in recurve archery. Essentially what happens is that the archer draws, anchors, and aims. When the clicker, clicks, they release the shot. Most top archers have an amazing anticipation control just before the clicker clicks. Their response is rather fast and exact. If the clicker clicks too soon or too late, as most archers experience, then they collapse or essentially shoot a poor shot. This is due to not focusing on executing the shot at the right moment in time. They are focused on something else at the moment and are not prepared to shoot the shot. This anticipation of the click prepares the archer to focus on shooting the shot the way they have trained. However, when a top archer understands this reaction, they start to go through a period of hesitation on shooting the shot. So when they are anticipating shooting the shot, the clicker does not click. Thus their focus goes somewhere else, like….”should I shoot this?” They normally let down. Then they start over again. This can go on and on, since they do not have the confidence to shoot the perfect shot unless the anticipation of the click “timing” is right. The other time the archer breaks the fear of anticipation is when they are running out of time to shoot the shot. The shot clock becomes very important. Now their fear is far greater in missing the shot or not even getting the shot off in time, than worrying about shooting a “not-so-perfect” shot. 

Yes, it can be fixed. Mental training is a very important part of a top archer's program. It takes time to develop a good program. Unfortunately most archers do not continue to keep training their mind to focus right; thus, the deterioration of their mental program. Although most people think the mental game is important, very few work at it to improve their game. They shoot a lot, work on their equipment a lot but the mental is just too boring and doesn’t give instant results like form and equipment. Thus, it is ignored. There are several mental programs available and it appears that there are improved sport psychologists. Get in a program and learn it. Don’t expect instant results. It could take two or even three years to get it right, but it is worth it once you develop a good routine of mental management. 

The best example I can use for someone breaking this anticipatory fear and doing wonders after fixing it is Allison Williamson of Great Britain. She had this problem for years. She finally went to a sport psychologist and slowly learned to focus right. She won the Bronze Medal in Athens in 2004 and if you got a chance to see her shoot in Beijing, you would have noticed that she did not let down hardly at all. 

Can you cure it permanently? I doubt it. Any mental confidence can be broken. Our minds can do wonders pro or con. Thus, the diligence of maintaining a good mental program, is just as important as physical training and equipment upkeep.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> Many archers go through what is more like anticipatory fear in recurve archery. Essentially what happens is that the archer draws, anchors, and aims. When the clicker, clicks, they release the shot. Most top archers have an amazing anticipation control just before the clicker clicks. Their response is rather fast and exact. If the clicker clicks too soon or too late, as most archers experience, then they collapse or essentially shoot a poor shot. This is due to not focusing on executing the shot at the right moment in time. They are focused on something else at the moment and are not prepared to shoot the shot. This anticipation of the click prepares the archer to focus on shooting the shot the way they have trained. However, when a top archer understands this reaction, they start to go through a period of hesitation on shooting the shot. So when they are anticipating shooting the shot, the clicker does not click. Thus their focus goes somewhere else, like….”should I shoot this?” They normally let down. Then they start over again. This can go on and on, since they do not have the confidence to shoot the perfect shot unless the anticipation of the click “timing” is right. The other time the archer breaks the fear of anticipation is when they are running out of time to shoot the shot. The shot clock becomes very important. Now their fear is far greater in missing the shot or not even getting the shot off in time, than worrying about shooting a “not-so-perfect” shot.
> 
> Yes, it can be fixed. Mental training is a very important part of a top archer's program. It takes time to develop a good program. Unfortunately most archers do not continue to keep training their mind to focus right; thus, the deterioration of their mental program. Although most people think the mental game is important, very few work at it to improve their game. They shoot a lot, work on their equipment a lot but the mental is just too boring and doesn’t give instant results like form and equipment. Thus, it is ignored. There are several mental programs available and it appears that there are improved sport psychologists. Get in a program and learn it. Don’t expect instant results. It could take two or even three years to get it right, but it is worth it once you develop a good routine of mental management.
> 
> ...


 there may, in fact, be more to that than you intended. It sounds like a very real left brain vs. right brain dilemma. Left Brain is very much about "what happens next" and linear logic. Right brain is very much about current environmental stimulus and goings on and reacting to the moment. When the left brain becomes overly dominant you can get this very type of issue happening ( I have personal experience with someone actually not being able to use tools like vice grips or ratchet wrenches which they have been using for a lifetime). Fine motor skills deteriorate and what makes matters worse is the right brain controls spatial orientation so you can actually lose perception of target sizes and distances. It appears as though it is a completely unfamiliar environment even though your mind recognizes the surroundings.

In extremis this can be what is known as NLD or Non Verbal Learning Disorder. Left brain processing so dominant that verbal instruction takes a massive precedence over all else. Non verbal queues such as a target visual or clicker or sight picture lose all meaning to the individual.

While I doubt he suffers from NLD or any of its derivatives. The fact that He had Khatuna there to provide verbal dialogue rings some bells as to some similarities. Some of the mental exercises used by its sufferers may be a great aid in overcoming the issue.

I would seriously love to hear what Allisons mental regimen was that led her to overcome the problem.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Keeping it simple, but would the term analysis paralysis apply here. As in, too much thinking? If you're a dancer and you have to think about your next step, well, that's when you screw it up and twist an ankle.

By the way, I cannot find Nichols on the Olympic replay, rewind, whatever. Did I skip over her tying to find her or did somthing else happen?


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## bdca (Apr 9, 2007)

Jenny shot exclusivly on field B and there was no coverage there.

Cya!


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## Sleeping Robot (Aug 16, 2007)

Dave T said:


> Setting aside all the bickering, I'd like to thank both Rick and John for posting here. Getting the thoughts and point of view of archers who have actually been there is invaluable! Thanks for talking to us, the archery version of the great un-washed. (smiley face goes here)
> 
> Dave


I agree Dave. As limbwalker noted, there is not a lot of upside for Rick and others to post. Please keep us beginning archers in mind. We are the ones who profit from your messages. Thanks for posting them.

Best regards,
Ron


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## mainline (Aug 26, 2008)

Ricks knowledge of the sport is unmeasurable. Thanks for posting bro.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I would also like to thank Rick for his postings of actual valuable information. (Something that is few and far between here)


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> there may, in fact, be more to that than you intended. It sounds like a very real left brain vs. right brain dilemma. Left Brain is very much about "what happens next" and linear logic. Right brain is very much about current environmental stimulus and goings on and reacting to the moment. When the left brain becomes overly dominant you can get this very type of issue happening ( I have personal experience with someone actually not being able to use tools like vice grips or ratchet wrenches which they have been using for a lifetime). Fine motor skills deteriorate and what makes matters worse is the right brain controls spatial orientation so you can actually lose perception of target sizes and distances. It appears as though it is a completely unfamiliar environment even though your mind recognizes the surroundings.
> 
> In extremis this can be what is known as NLD or Non Verbal Learning Disorder. Left brain processing so dominant that verbal instruction takes a massive precedence over all else. Non verbal queues such as a target visual or clicker or sight picture lose all meaning to the individual.
> 
> ...


I don’t think she overcame the problem.
What she does now is to let the clock run down to around 15 seconds and then she draws, aims and shoots.
By letting the clock run down she knows there’s no time for a letdown.
It seems to work for her to a certain point.


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