# Compounds! UGH!



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gotta vent a little here...

As many folks have experienced, youth archery is surging and our local 4-H archery program is as busy as ever...

But this year, more than ever, it seems I'm spending all my time working on issues with youth compound bows. UGH! If I had a dollar for every time a new young archer (usually a boy) brought me a camo 20# compound and asked me to "fix" it for them... I have to carry around a set of allen wrenches every night now.

So, 80% of my time is spent working on the 20% of our 4-H archers who insist (or their parents do) on shooting a compound. Meanwhile, the recurve archers who make up about 80% of our students, get 20% of my time to help them REALLY learn how to shoot a bow.

Anyone else dealing with this? 

I've been really, really tempted to just declare that I no longer work on compound bows because they take up too much time every practice session.

I got so frustrated with one young man the other night that I suggested he put down the contraption in his hands, go over to the table full of recurve bows, pick one up, and learn how to shoot archery for a change.

I think compounds are going to be the death of me.

John


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

AMEN!!!

I generally tell them "When you really want to learn to shoot, Lose the training wheels (heh heh) and then come see me!"

Luckily as of right now, we don't have that problem... 

You can always declare that compound instruction and coaching is only done during private sessions and charge a reasonable rate to work on them. I know you try not to charge much but if it's impacting the rest of your group, (the ones you are really there for) time to make a change.

If the parents went to a pro shop and requested tuning services (and we all know that tuning can be a dark art, not always science because of the human part of the equation) most charge by the hour. I think installing a nock set can be as high as $5.00 

Here's one shops service fees. AND THIS IS NOT TUNING. Just services

Bow Service
String and Cable Installation (accessories not included) 19.95

Nock Set Installation $4.99

string Silencer Tie-in (includes string spiders) $6.99

d-loop installation $8.95

Kisser Button Install (does not include kisser) $2.99

Reserve Center Serving $14.95

Reserve String loop end $18.95

Clean and Wax String $4.99

Peep Sight Install and tie-in $8.95

Sight Install $8.95

Sight 2nd and 3rd axis adjust $24.95

Rest Install fall away $14.95

Rest Install standard $9.95

Adjust draw length modules not included $9.95

Adjust Draw Weight $4.95

Quiver Install $4.95

Cable Guard Adjustment $4.95

Set Timing/programming $14.95


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

I got tired of constantly having to tweak every setting, tune every item on my compound so I switched to recurve. I'm constantly amazed at the feats that compound bow engineers can pull off, but it was for me a lot of trouble for very little payoff. I know you have to do a lot of tuning on recurves too, but for some reason it doesn't seem as much of a constant problem. I spent so much time being frustrated with my compound that I didn't actually shoot it very much. With my recurve, I've shot a lot more and can actually observe improvement over time, which is something I didn't reach with my compound.

I don't blame you for not wanting to work on them. There's something to be said about the simplicity of a recurve bow in its basic form. Then I get to decide how crazy I go with the tuning instead of the equipment constantly telling me what to do!


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Me too John. I shudder every time a new kid walks in with a tricked out C bow or worse a CHEAP "kid's" C bow. 99% of the time they don't fit and the new shooter gets quickly discouraged. IF!!! I can get the parents to talk to me before they go to buy, it is better because I can start them on a recurve/Genesis. I have to admit to thinking about ONLY accepting new students that use my/club equipment at the beginning. Then once they have SOME degree of mastery of form and shooting technique and I have some time with the parents Then we can talk about C bows if they are still inclined.

The trouble is that the kids see their folks shooting the C bows and want to copy them -- understandable BUT... How do you get to Mom and Dad before they "screw it up?"

Anyway, vent away, I think many of use are with you.

Arne


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

I think that in many cases, dad is a bowhunter, so he starts his kids off on a compound, despite that the kids are many years away from being able to hunt. It seems that it would be more fun & develop more real archery skill to start the kids off with a recurve; they could always pick up the compound when they get to hunting age.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I think part of it is that when a compound isn't properly setup, it's clear. It's almost binary in that it either shoots well or terribly. With a recurve, a poorly setup bow is much harder for new shooters to recognize.


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

williamskg6 said:


> I got tired of constantly having to tweak every setting, tune every item on my compound so I switched to recurve. I'm constantly amazed at the feats that compound bow engineers can pull off, but it was for me a lot of trouble for very little payoff. I know you have to do a lot of tuning on recurves too, but for some reason it doesn't seem as much of a constant problem. I spent so much time being frustrated with my compound that I didn't actually shoot it very much. With my recurve, I've shot a lot more and can actually observe improvement over time, which is something I didn't reach with my compound.
> 
> I don't blame you for not wanting to work on them. There's something to be said about the simplicity of a recurve bow in its basic form. Then I get to decide how crazy I go with the tuning instead of the equipment constantly telling me what to do!


Hi Kent, Me again. Hope you got my private message. Although I shot compounds and 3D for 15+ years i do not miss them at all.
Olympic Style Archery is archery at its purest stage. I will try and make a comparison. Shooting a C is like watching a WWF Wrestling
match but shooting an Olympic Recurve is like watching Swan Lake. Regards
Norman


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## Blades (Jun 25, 2012)

I am new to archery, but see why kids can be drawn to the compound, its "fast", cool looking, and that is where nearly all of the attention/advertising goes these days in big box stores, and a significant part of what archery shops carry. Parents and kids can also be roped in by salesmen who want to sell them compound bows, as well as all the accessories and do-dads related to it. They are flashier and boast of speed and accuracy, hence they sell better. Recurves can get the accuracy, but it comes down to the time, effort and determination of the shooter.

I luckily have had the opposite reaction, both personally and with my younger cousin, who I introduced to archery this summer. I have had buddies who had compounds, but they never appealed to me. I don't like stuff plastered with camo first off, and then when looking at it, hunting with one is just so similar to hunting with a rifle (scopes, rangefinders, TRIGGERS) that I didnt want to do that either (also one of the reasons I dont hunt, especially with guns. Not as much sport in it, especially where I live, and the max range you ever get to take a deer at is 100 yards). So I didn't pursue it. 

When I got my first bow this summer, it was a trad recurve. They had some cheaper compounds in the same price range, but I knew I wanted a recurve. To me it is more sporting, more fun, to shoot with fingers on a recurve than a compound could ever be. Even at my first tournament this weekend, where the guy next to me was the owner of spot-hogg (and shot a 300), I found my self having a fantastic time while simultaneously feeling sorry for the compound shooters next to me. They will never know the feeling that comes with executing a perfect shot on a recurve. 

As I said I also got my cousin into archery. I took him shooting and they had compounds and recurves you could rent. I was explaining them to him on the car ride over, and he instantly piped up that he wanted to shoot a recurve. I asked why. He said "Because I want to be good at something that doesn't require fancy equipment. Archers have been around for a long time, and they shot those bows just fine". I was so proud.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Yup, compounds are heavily featured in hunting shows, adverts and in the magazines as well. And the vast bulk of archers in my neck of the woods are compounders...

Luckily, there are four of us volunteer coaches/instructors/whatever we are called, and three of them shoot compounds. I leave the compound adjustments to them. I have my hands full with the 40% of the club that shoots recurve...


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't know how 4-H archery programs are set up, but my uninformed opinion is that they should only be learning on a recurve or a Genesis. Using 80% of your time to set up compound bows is not fair to the 80% of kids who are learning to shoot properly. I like the above suggestion: "You can always declare that compound instruction and coaching is only done during private sessions and charge a reasonable rate to work on them." Perhaps the 4-H program does not permit you to do that though. If not, then you need to tell the parents that they need to go to the shop where they bought the compound bow and have them set it up properly, as you are not equipped to set up compound bows.


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## dwoods7 (Nov 24, 2010)

I have a small fortune tied up in both compound and recurve equipment for myself and children - and attempt to shoot both well. The club that I am am member of is not very friendly to those that shoot compounds. I wanted to believe that the (elitist) club attitudes were not the norm, however, it seems as if I am wrong. For such a niche sport as archery to be so divided is a pretty sad statement. I see a lot of judgement and complaints here about compounds and their owners, however, I rarely see any rants about recurve shooters on the other forums. Can anyone explain why that is?


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

The JOAD program that my daughter joins, she is the only one who shoots recurve !!!


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

dwoods7 said:


> I have a small fortune tied up in both compound and recurve equipment for myself and children - and attempt to shoot both well. The club that I am am member of is not very friendly to those that shoot compounds. I wanted to believe that the (elitist) club attitudes were not the norm, however, it seems as if I am wrong. For such a niche sport as archery to be so divided is a pretty sad statement. I see a lot of judgement and complaints here about compounds and their owners, however, I rarely see any rants about recurve shooters on the other forums. Can anyone explain why that is?


I did not read this as a rant against compound shooters. I read it as frustration about spending so much time having to set up compound bows that it leaves little time to actually train the shooters.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

You guys sound like a bunch of whiners! I teach mostly compounds and we have 50-60 kids in our club. I dont get paid a dime and dont have a problem helping the parent learn how to work on their own kids crap.

Seriously maybe you need to go back to your coach school or something. O they dont teach you how to work on bows. 

Its too bad there are so many recurvers with an elitist mentality trying to teach archery.

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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

Not reading this as a compound rant at all. All I shoot is compound, and understand the frustration John is talking about having to work on kids' equipment when he should be coaching. Archery is archery. There's no us vs them. Parents, I they are taking the time to get the kids in the sport, should have equipment issues takin care if at the shop before comin to coaching/ practice. 

Blades, I was at that shoot also this weekend. Stunk it up pretty good with my fancy stuff  but had a great time with great people. Seeing those guys shoot 300s is an inspiration that I strive for to be able to compete with those guys. The capability is there just have work to do as always.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

John,
Reading this and laughing my ass off. I had a 10 year old kid come to 4h the other evening with a bow " his uncle game him". Old bear whitetail 70 lb, 30 inch draw 50% let off and the limb bolts had already been backed out way past safe. I told him to zip the case back up as a could not make that bow fit him.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

I've had several adult friends who have bought compound bows from other people. I'm constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge the both the buyers and sellers of compound bows have. For instance, a friend bought a used Parker bow from someone he knows, but the person who sold it didn't even think to mention the draw length.  My buddy didn't know enough to ask about the draw length. Short story - the bow doesn't fit and doesn't have adjustable draw stops or modules. Now my buddy is going to have to try to find parts for a four year old Parker that wasn't very common even when it was new. This is the sort of thing you see in the wheeling and dealing of compounds a lot, especially with beginners that lack knowledge. Compounds change so often and so quickly that even a four year old bow is antique. A four year old recurve is likely not out of date at all. That's one reason I like recurves - they're a little more future proof.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

For those who would like to interpret my rant as an "elitist" attitude against compounds, you don't know me very well. I want to help ALL my young archers equally as much, and I have no problem with their choice of equipment. Oh, and I can work on and tune compounds just fine, thank you. Been doing it since 1979 in fact. But the problem I'm describing is that they take SO MUCH TIME compared to the kids shooting barebow - whether compound OR recurve. Heck, I'd love to have a rack full of Genesis bows if we could, so we don't have to assemble our take-down recurves every Tuesday night. So no, it's not a rant against compounds, but rather an expression of frustration that they require so much maintenance and setup time for a developing archer - esp. one who has no knowlege of equipment or whose parents cannot help them because THEY have no knowlege of equipment.

Of course I'll keep helping them as much as possible, but when I have a half-dozen recurvers wanting my help with form and instruction, but I'm constantly trying to keep a compound from SERIOUSLY INJURING a 9 year-old archer, it does become an issue. I've suggested to a few parents that their child would be better served to learn to shoot archery with a recurve first, but the looks I get are not ones of understanding, if you know what I mean. Especially after the parents just got talked into spending $350 on a little compound bow at the counter of Bass Pro. Having a coach tell them that their child really should be learning on an $80 recurve with purple aluminum arrows is NOT what they want to hear, I know 

John


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Hard to sell that point when you look at the money $ winners at Vegas and IBO et al. I know only a couple of guys can actually make a living at it, but to most its the dream for their kids, or them living through them. Alot of sports are like that and no matter what you teach or coach, it can be frustrating. I feel your pain John. Oh, and thanks for hanging in there with the kids, they really do deserve it. Gar.


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Oh, and I can work on and tune compounds just fine, thank you.
> 
> John


If you are referring to this comment that I made - "If not, then you need to tell the parents that they need to go to the shop where they bought the compound bow and have them set it up properly, as you are not equipped to set up compound bows.", I was not suggesting that you are not capable of working on their compound bows. I was just throwing out suggestions of what you can say to try to get the parents to get the shop to set it up properly. I was saying that you could tell them that you don't have the tools on hand to work on compounds, so please don't get so touchy if you were getting defensive to my comment. I respect your knowledge and had no thought that you were not capable of working on compound bows.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Considering that I'm predominantly a compound coach, I see what you're enduring as part of my job. Nothing more, nothing less. Frankly, I endure just as much issues setting up recurves as well. However, once any bow is set up, it's basically left alone.

I strictly feel that if you're having to do that much tuning, your student needs to either get their pro shop to tune it in, or they basically pay you or someone else who knows what the heck is going on to tune it up at a time and place that isn't practice time.

As you well know, once it's dialed in and tuned, it shouldn't have to be touched. My student's competition bows, plus my own son's competition bows all are touched rarely by myself or another coach once it's dialed in. 

I can see where some may construe your commentary as an anti-compound rant. However, if anything isn't set up properly, you're going to have issues like what you're describing.

-Steve


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Like John, I have been working on my own compounds since the mid 70s. I can repair and tune them just fine. (some level of OCD, remember?) I still remember the trials of changing strings in the field during a field shoot with no bow press. Thank goodness that by then the wheels had heavy spokes instead of solid wheels. But also like John, when you have 30-40 people that really want to work on their shooting, get some coaching and are shooting recurve, one compound with a student that does not know a thing about gear with a parent that insists on you focusing your time with their child because they just spent 500.00 for a compound bow/arrows/release/stabilizer/sight will take all a coaches time away from the rest of the group. Something has to give. So while I have no problem working on a compound shooters form, I don't do free repairs and adjustments for compounders during our normal open sessions. If all we had were compounders, then I would be taking those times as teaching moments and we as a group would be learning how to setup, tune and repair our gear.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> You guys sound like a bunch of whiners! I teach mostly compounds and we have 50-60 kids in our club. I dont get paid a dime and dont have a problem helping the parent learn how to work on their own kids crap.
> 
> Seriously maybe you need to go back to your coach school or something. O they dont teach you how to work on bows.
> 
> ...


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

One thing I can't stand is watching a coach/instructor observe a student missing or having an equipment issue, and just casually walk up to the athlete's gear while they are retrieving arrows and make an adjustment without ever telling or showing them what they did and/or why!

They are doing everyone a dis-service. How the heck is the athlete ever going to learn to self coach or repair their gear? or even recognize something is amiss? Not sure about the rules any more but I seem to recall that coaches are no longer allowed on the line in some venues..


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

John.....I understand the point of Your post, even though I do not Coach, I see this sort of thing very often at the Pro shop that I frequent...Archery is really bizarre to me in the regard that almost all parents that allow their children to participate in any Sport will seek equipment advice and Coaching advice, before purchasing anything expensive, but will take their kid to a Box store, or bow shop and buy the wrong gear,, or worse yet, buy a bow for their kid because it's a ''Youth" model, without even having the child with them, then expect the bow to fit the kid, and the kid to be able to shoot the bow....it makes me happy to see a parent bring a child in the shop and say "My child wants to shoot a bow, I know nothing about archery, can You set us up with what we need??"...Those Parents, and Children are already miles ahead of the game....Thanks for doing what You do, John!...Hang in there, buddy!.............Jim


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I know that John knows what to do to solve his problem. 

I also 'get' that his OP was just a conversational comment about so much to do, so little time. Those taking it as a 'rant against compounders' are encouraged to reread it. 

Good grief.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

dchan said:


> One thing I can't stand is watching a coach/instructor observe a student missing or having an equipment issue, and just casually walk up to the athlete's gear while they are retrieving arrows and make an adjustment without ever telling or showing them what they did and/or why!
> 
> They are doing everyone a dis-service. How the heck is the athlete ever going to learn to self coach or repair their gear? or even recognize something is amiss? Not sure about the rules any more but I seem to recall that coaches are no longer allowed on the line in some venues..


Depending on the shoot, some coaches aren't allowed to go into the archer's area unless they have been accredited. 

I will throw this out, however, using younger kids as an example - how many 9-12 year olds realistically can do their own repairs?

Now, my own child (10 years old) is capable of adjusting his sight, fixing his arrows (to a certain extent, unless he needs a new hot melt glue in tip for his arrow), readjust his stabilizer balance, and can do some basic fixes with D-Loop/Peep adjustment. If it's swapping strings or cables - that's an adult's job. I don't expect a 10 year old to do that type of work.

What "fixes" are realistic for kids to do versus the coaching staff or parents?

And - how much of the issue is the laziness of the parent or the laziness of the pro shop?

-Steve


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

And that's is why my three kids all shoot ILF recurves three or four risers and a handful of SF limbs and I can keep them shooting for years. 

Matt


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

See responses in bold..



Beastmaster said:


> Depending on the shoot, some coaches aren't allowed to go into the archer's area unless they have been accredited. *Thanks for the clarification. That was what I thought. So adjusting a sight, tightening a loose stabilizer or locking down a loose sight bolt, stuff like that, would need to come back out of the archers area *
> 
> I will throw this out, however, using younger kids as an example - how many 9-12 year olds realistically can do their own repairs? *if it's just adjusting a sight (compounds often use hunting pins instead of movable scopes) or changing the angle of a vbar, I think they should be able to. *
> 
> ...


If all your students are Compounders (or majority are) then it makes sense to work on them.. If I had this situation, every time I had to make any adjustment on a compound, I would offer to everyone there the opportunity to observe and maybe even try to make the adjustment. I would teach or coach them all on why we are making the adjustment, how it helps, how to recognize the symptom and how to correct it. Now 80 percent of your class will have gotten something out of 1 persons need for the adjustment.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

I had this problem when I used to host paintball and airsoft games. My airsoft guns were known to be the fastest guns available. Not speed but rounds per second. Stockers shot 15/sec mine shot 60/sec. Guess who everyone brought there guns to. I spent most of the event helping guys out. It can be a hassle sometimes. I started charging 20/hr. By appointment or 60/hr. At the field. It slowed flow of gear in my garage a little but more importantly stopped most requests at the field. Always a guy or two willing to pay but nothing like it was when I did it for free. I would maybe make an instruction only policy and refer repairs to the pro shop.

Shoot, work, shoot!


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## Blades (Jun 25, 2012)

deepsprayj said:


> I had this problem when I used to host paintball and airsoft games. My airsoft guns were known to be the fastest guns available. Not speed but rounds per second. Stockers shot 15/sec mine shot 60/sec. Guess who everyone brought there guns to. I spent most of the event helping guys out. It can be a hassle sometimes. I started charging 20/hr. By appointment or 60/hr. At the field. It slowed flow of gear in my garage a little but more importantly stopped most requests at the field. Always a guy or two willing to pay but nothing like it was when I did it for free. I would maybe make an instruction only policy and refer repairs to the pro shop.
> 
> Shoot, work, shoot!


Ironic, I used to do the same thing at paintball fields. I loved tuning guns however, and after 5 years of playing, I had become bored of the games, so i just went and tuned guns.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

It's just like any business decision. When 20% of your customers are causing you to spend 80% of your time with them...you dump the 20%. Those 20% can either follow the norm or pay extra for their unique situation. As one of the posts indicated, the shop should have set the bow up correctly to begin with and if it's typical issues of a compound bow there are a number of choices they can make....they can leave it with you, they can take it to a pro shop, their parents can get involved and learn to fix it.

Expecting someone to devote that much time is unrealistic and warrants dedicated one on one instruction...that they pay for.

It's just like any business decision. When 20% of your customers are causing you to spend 80% of your time with them...you dump the 20%. Those 20% can either follow the norm or pay extra for their unique situation. As one of the posts indicated, the shop should have set the bow up correctly to begin with and if it's typical issues of a compound bow there are a number of choices they can make....they can leave it with you, they can take it to a pro shop, their parents can get involved and learn to fix it.

"...Expecting someone to devote that much time is unrealistic and warrants dedicated one on one instruction...that they pay for."

Worry less about what they "want" to hear. Sometimes its best to tell someone what they NEED to hear. 

Maybe there is a way make a rule that kids have to graduate to a compound in order to use it with you...or maybe a separate compound coach. Maybe make it a requirement to leave the bow with you til the next week so you can work on it.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

How about getting an allen wrench and telling the parent to take two screws out and move a module. Its a simple fix! Id say 90% of the kids bows dont even need a press. 

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill saying its taking up all your time. 

Same thing for sights. Easy instruction and any parent or kid can learn how to move them. My kids have been moving their own sights since they were 8 or 9.

Getting an arrow to fly correctly out of a compound isn't any harder than getting a recurve bow to fly correctly. Mountain out of a molehill. In fact it argue its easier.

I didn't bring up this lame topic. I dont even get paid and you dont see me complaining. To me it just comes across as moaning about my poor recurve archers cant get all my time teaching proper form. You ever step back and look at how much time it takes to get those kids to shoot a recurve bow with proper form? 

Im not picking on just the original poster either. Im also picking on the rest who jumped on his band wagon.

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## bowgal (Jun 12, 2003)

In my experience with working with kids and compounds there is often more involved than moving a module or sight. As we all know, moving a module, peep, kisser, dloop etc affects many other things. Its a domino effect that requires time. Many kids (and parents) leave a bow shop thinking that the bow "fits". Often the kids drawn length is too long, the peep too low and they drop their head to see thru it, arrows are way to stiff, I could go on but I think most of you understand. I even had one nice young man shooting a compound bow with fingers. He had his shooting glove on backwards. I helped him out and showed him why it needed to be the correct way. It wasn't a few minutes later he turned it around again.....he and dad said that the guy at the bowshop said that way he had it was correct....

I do think these kids need help but maybe outside of regular class time or send them back to shop but they only problem with that is that the shop owner will insist that the bow setup is fine. I think it would be better to help them outside of class, whether you charge or not is up to you. 

I do agree it is an issue, I just think maybe the "tone" of "Compounds! UGH!" topic may inflammed some compound archers. FWIW, I shot a compound for ten years before switching to recurve. I learned after ten years how to shoot a bow.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"I didn't bring up this lame topic. I dont even get paid and you dont see me complaining."_

Actually, that's ALL you've done on this thread.

_"..My kids have been moving their own sights since they were 8 or 9..."_

Exactly. Oh, the irony...


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

lksseven said:


> _"I didn't bring up this lame topic. I dont even get paid and you dont see me complaining."_
> 
> Actually, that's ALL you've done on this thread.
> 
> ...


I guess your reading and comprehending skills are lacking. Im have yet to complain on this thread about helping a kid out with any bow. Go back and re read it that was what this post was about. Better yet put your big boy or big girl boots on and help the kids out. 

O i guess you dont move sights on a recurve bow either. O the irony! 

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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

and yet more irony. Bray on.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I usually agree with 99% of what john posts but i guess i took this one differently.

It took this post as another divisive post like the one i read a few weeks ago on here and im sure iksseven was blowing his horn about how much better recurvers were on that one as well. 

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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

swbuckmaster said:


> How about getting an allen wrench and telling the parent to take two screws out and move a module. Its a simple fix! Id say 90% of the kids bows dont even need a press.
> 
> Your making a mountain out of a mole hill saying its taking up all your time.
> 
> ...


While it may seem to you that changing a module to a different setting is easy for you, it may not be for the mechanically less inclined. And how much do you tell them to move it? Yes, you can eyeball and tell them "move it an inch", but may need more tweaking. As bowgal pointed out, many times there are many other things that need to change as well. 4H or JOAD shooting time is for instruction, not initial bow maintenance or setup. Maybe small tweaks. (UNLESS you have a session dedicated to just setting this up). Just depends on the expectations of the class. 

Do you really think that setting up a compound takes the same or less amount of time then a recurve? How long are your JOAD session that you can help, adjust, and MODIFY 20 or more kids bows? Do you have help? It's great your kids do adjustments, how long did it take for them to know how to make the proper adjustments on their own? When a parent screws up the module adjustment and a bow derails or flies into the ground or space, what then? How do you handle it? John is referring to BEGINNERS with no previous experience or very little. I can see where you are coming from but you have set your expectations that you do all these adjustments big or small on the spot while they are shooting. The expectations or rules have not been set down in the case for John.

To all, I would suggest, to set the expectations and rules of the class ahead of time. Taking time to set a compound up properly takes more time so let the parents know that shooting time of class is not the time to make major adjustments. OR have a pre-class that helps set this up to allow shooting time to stay shooting time. Work with a local shop to help the kids out with a low cost or no cost bow adjustment knowing these kids are in a bow program.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

John, my peep needs tied in. Where do I send it to again? 

really, why don't you limit your fixing time. In reality, they're using you as a bow mech, and that you are not. If it needs fixed, it'll have to wait. Maybe when some have to sit and watch a while, they'll come prepared. I would also avoid the turning bows up thing. I've seen a number of kids at the range wanting to just mess with a bow. That's ok, but not on JOAD time. Shoot what you brought, just like a tournament.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Your all talking about a beginner. You dont need to tweak a beginner bow like i tweak mine. Peep sights can be tied in so they slide. Easy fix!

We have just as many compound shooters as we have recurve shooters. It seriously isn't a problem in our club. My wife keeps up with all the scores the kids shoot every week and keeps up with the pins the kids earn. She also keeps up with new registration. Its up dated every week and posted. So you can see what any kid has shot for as long as there in the program. Shes been doing it for 4 years now. I work on the compound shooters when im in town. The recurve shooters are coached by a different coach. We have another coach who takes care of the shooting lines. Are class runs three hours long and the non club members kids one pay 1 dollar to shoot. The members kids are free.

Id say our club is run pretty good and it still puts out high quality recurve shooters as well as compound shooters. like i said we have 40-60+ kids shooting every friday year round.



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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

child like behaviour breeds child like responses. Or is it the other way around?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> I guess your reading and comprehending skills are lacking. Im have yet to complain on this thread about helping a kid out with any bow. Go back and re read it that was what this post was about. Better yet put your big boy or big girl boots on and help the kids out.
> 
> O i guess you dont move sights on a recurve bow either. O the irony!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Beginners or novices shooting club gear at a 4h or entry JOAD? With about 1.5-2 hrs to practice after primary instruction. No we are not moving sights yet. (At least in our beginning classes) the students are shooting basic club recurves. No sight, simple stick on arrow rest, no stabilizer, maybe a simple plunger and a nock locator.

Select arrow for length, give them an armguard, maybe a tab an select an appropriate bow length and weight.

Sure seems like less fiddling than changing a draw module, or moving a peep.

If a nock locator moves or an arrow rest breaks, I can hand the shooter another bow and set the bad one aside for repair after class. And oh yeah, that repair can also become a separate class for the more advanced shooters.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

swbuckmaster said:


> Your all talking about a beginner. You dont need to tweak a beginner bow like i tweak mine. Peep sights can be tied in so they slide. Easy fix!
> 
> We have just as many compound shooters as we have recurve shooters. It seriously isn't a problem in our club. My wife keeps up with all the scores the kids shoot every week and keeps up with the pins the kids earn. She also keeps up with new registration. Its up dated every week and posted. So you can see what any kid has shot for as long as there in the program. Shes been doing it for 4 years now. I work on the compound shooters when im in town. The recurve shooters are coached by a different coach. We have another coach who takes care of the shooting lines. Are class runs three hours long and the non club members kids one pay 1 dollar to shoot. The members kids are free.
> 
> ...


And how many new shooters every week? How many novices.. A beginner shooting a compound still needs draw length set, maybe weight adjusted, rest adjusted, in many cases timing set because someone decided to crank down the limb bolt on one limb but not the other.

Would be nice to have coaches for different disiplines and plenty of time to do teach them how to make adjustments.

Talking to several other coaches, I hear a lot of their 4h and joad entry programs have 40-50 regulars with maybe a dozen l1 or l2 instructors to help, but the first time lessons or novices class might be 50-100 people or more.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

We Can have up to 20 or more new shooters every week. Some show up again some never show up again. I'd say 90 percent of our shooters R 10 to 14 years old.

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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

So another example that falls into the safety realm. And a little humerous. But scary too.

I was out teaching a private lesson with 2 boys that shoot in our JOAD program. Dad wants them to get more one on one with a coach so no problem. Parents that Get it.

In any case, two bales over, a kid with his dad and dads friend come in. As I generally do, I observe to make sure we are going to be safe. Since it is a public range, you never know.. The dad and his friend start shooting. No issues there. You can tell they are novices but relatively safe. Then the son starts to shoot and first thing this kid does is nock an arrow, (compund bow) and stands there looking for help looking to dad, all the while aimed directly at us! He finally turns to aim at the target and starts to draw. Over bowed so he high draws to pull. Then I see way too long of a draw length, and hes struggling to stay in the valley.
Has a sight and peep, but cant get it lined up well. And he lets it fly.

Over the bale. (They are shooting from about 30m)

Second shot. A least hes not aimed at us this time but similar draw and again over the bale. For our safety I decide I better go say something. Dad explains new bow, shop tells us its the right size and weight. Kid will grow into it fine. Grrrrr

I explain that he needs to keep it aimed down range at all times drawn or not. And a high draw like he is using can be very dangerous i explain why, while trying to be positive. Please draw aiming at the ground or at the target, not at the sky. ... He and his dad seem to understand. 

I move my class over a few bales just to be safe. About 30 minutes later, I notice now they are at 40m. Maybe 2 out of 12 arrows are in the bale and then I hear it. Arrow in the bushes/trees probably 25-30 feet above the bale they are shooting at. Exactly what I told him might happen with that draw and the draw length draw weight set incorrectly. Few giggles. (Not comforting to hear) a quick scramble to collect their arrows, dont think they went looking for the misfired arrow in the trees, and they leave very quickly.


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## kakend (Oct 30, 2007)

It’s an easy fix. More people need to be involved in their children’s archery, more people need to get coaching certs, and people need to have the passion and knowledge that LOTS of people here do. We need to expand archery to the people not on this forum, but in all of our own communities!

My two cents aint worth jack in this day/age but I will throw it around

Have a great day guys!
Kasey


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## SpiritArcher (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm an archery coach in a club located in one of the most famous bowhunting areas in the world, the Edmonton bow zone and the participation in bowhunting by local residents is mindblowing. You would think that the majority of the kids we see in our programs own their own compounds but believe it or not, 99% of the 70+ kids we have shoot our club bows and they are basic recurves (bolt-on limbs, wood riser, basic sight, peel and stick arrow rest). 

What frustrates me as a coach isn't the occasional child who brings in a compound, its the parent of that child who buys junior a scaled down version of his bow (it usually the dads who are guilty of this) and has the peak draw weight set at the minimum draw weight required under law for hunting (40 lbs.). I spend a lot of time with these parents convincing them that the draw weight is too heavy for the child and that it will either injury him or seriously discourage him to the point where he quits. They usually concede and I crank down the draw weight but come the next class, Dad has the draw weight cranked back up to 40 lbs.

As a club we support archery in all its forms and we don't discourage folks from shooting compounds, ILF recurves, hungarian horse bows, English longbows, trad recurves, yumis, and the like. We do, however, strongly encourage them to start out on the club's recurves and then when the have mastered the basics and are ready to purchase their own equipment we educate them on what's out there. We have two specific workshops that we put on to assist with this. The first is a bow workshop where we cover off selection, maintenance, and tuning of equipment and the second workshop covers off the selection, care and maintenance of arrows.

Sometimes we see a junior with a compound because in our neck of the woods, they are simply easier to purchase than ILF recurve equipment. Often, its a special order through a pro-shop that is riddiculing the parent or a mail order through Lancaster. I think if the pro-shops carried tartget equipment we would probably see even less of our kids with compounds.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

bowgal said:


> In my experience with working with kids and compounds there is often more involved than moving a module or sight. As we all know, moving a module, peep, kisser, dloop etc affects many other things. Its a domino effect that requires time. Many kids (and parents) leave a bow shop thinking that the bow "fits". Often the kids drawn length is too long, the peep too low and they drop their head to see thru it, arrows are way to stiff, I could go on but I think most of you understand. I even had one nice young man shooting a compound bow with fingers. He had his shooting glove on backwards. I helped him out and showed him why it needed to be the correct way. It wasn't a few minutes later he turned it around again.....he and dad said that the guy at the bowshop said that way he had it was correct....
> 
> I do think these kids need help but maybe outside of regular class time or send them back to shop but they only problem with that is that the shop owner will insist that the bow setup is fine. I think it would be better to help them outside of class, whether you charge or not is up to you.
> 
> I do agree it is an issue, I just think maybe the "tone" of "Compounds! UGH!" topic may inflammed some compound archers. FWIW, I shot a compound for ten years before switching to recurve. I learned after ten years how to shoot a bow.


Bowgal, you're spot-on.

One thing leads to another, and another, and another. Then something moves (or is moved by the child or their parent) and it all starts over.

Last Tuesday, I spent about 20 minutes working on TWO compound bows for TWO students. After I was done, I put a stick-on arrow rest on a wood-handled take down recurve, then stepped back and enjoyed watching a big brother and younger brother take turns shooting that bow, even though they are considerably different in size. 

Recurves - the original "scalable" bow 

SWBuck, I can use you at our small town 4-H club. When are you available?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I am one of those compound shooters who did not feel the love from your original posting, but I do understand, up to a point, where you are coming from. Personally, I learned to shoot using a recurve, but due to the lack of recurve competitors in my area, decided to switch to competing with a compound and could not be happier. 

However, for the beginning archery classes we teach, the students, both adult and children, are taught using a standard recurve or a genesis bow—this because the class size really precludes individually fitting each participant for a compound bow. However, if they have their own equipment, they are welcome to use it for their class time, but they also understand that only a small percentage of the class time can be used to perform equipment tuning. Those who have very poorly fitting equipment can make arrangements to see one of our instructors after class time to discuss those needs or are referred back to a local pro shop—this pertains to both compound and recurve shooters. We had one recurve shooter whose parents purchased one of those plastic Hunger Games bows for their child that had the center serving coming completely off after only a couple of weeks of shooting. We reserved her bow, but instructed her parents regarding more appropriate equipment choices and where and how to make those purchases.

So, to blindly group all compound shooters in that original sentiment serves as a disservice to those who have made the choice, for whatever reason, to use that platform for their archery enjoyment. As many have already said, under normal circumstances, once a compound is properly set, it should stay that way.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I'm a compounder and feel where you are coming from. It's a lot different than handing a kid a couple of sticks and a string. Like several have said, it's still a matter of once you have it set, it's good. Well, at least until they grow again next week...


limbwalker said:


> SWBuck, I can use you at our small town 4-H club. When are you available?


That leads me into my suggestion. Designate one or two of the other coaches/instructors as the compound specialists. Send the kids over to those for tweaking and equipment issues. You can't do all of the coaching and equipment fixing yourself, there just isn't enough time. Delegate the compound equipment out to someone else. Get more people involved at the various levels. It might be a pain in the butt to teach someone else to pick up this task, but it'll more than pay off later.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> As many have already said, under normal circumstances, once a compound is properly set, it should stay that way.


There are no "normal circumstances" when you're dealing with 9-10 year old kids who are learning archery for the first time, and who's parents have no archery knowlege at all. Even if nothing moves on it's own, the kids (or their parents) will tinker with stuff thinking they need to move their sight or peep or whatever because they aren't shooting itty bitty groups instantly like the other compound archers are.

Part of the challenge when dealing with new archers who shoot compound is dealing with the mentality that they feel they 'should' be able to shoot 2" groups at 18M because they see the other compound shooters doing this. With barebow, you don't have to deal with this mindset, since they realize that it's going to take a lot of work and dicipline to get to a point where they can shoot nice groups at that distance. The compounds unfortunately produce an "instant gratification" desire with these young archers. But then, it may be a chicken or the egg kid of conundrum, where those archers who want instant gratification are drawn to the compound, not the other way around. 

It also seems that no sooner than they get eveything set for them, two sessions later they're back in front of me wanting to know if they need a "better" stabilizer, a "better" arrow rest, smaller peep, a scope, a bubble level, a more expensive release, a different kind of release, a faster bow, etc., etc., etc. 

It's almost some kind of ADHD that I see happening with these young compound archers. Rarely, if ever, do I see that with archers who are shooting recurve. They tend to focus more on themselves as the solution, instead of the equipment.

John


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## rossing6 (Jun 7, 2008)

The title puts down a certain type of archery equipment...it's not the equipments fault it wasn't set up, the fault lies with well meaning, but ignorant people. Before letting someone into a group lesson, simply make the requirement the equipment has to be checked and setup properly, either where you bought the bow or by you the coach...safety is rule #1. If a compound shows up that is not set up or doesn't fit the student, loan them a recurve for the night and talk to the parents afterwards. In a one on one lesson, my rule is if the equipment isn't set up, the students lesson time is paying for that and some basic bow education before we do any coaching or shooting, and they won't participate in a group lesson until then.

I just hate seeing anything seemingly derogatory towards archery, even when venting about a real issue, or putting down equipment or the sport in any way. John is a pretty standup guy from his reputation, and I know it wasn't meant like the title reads (compounds ugh), but unfortunately, that is how it will be taken by many who read this. Bring in an Oly Recurve with brand new sight, rest, plunger, clicker & stabs bolted on and it'll need setup too...and a converstation with the parents. Education is our best ally...teach one set of parents some of the basics, and they'll for sure talk to other parents. 

I have the luxury of setting more specific rules when I take on students as I have a day job, and archery is my passion after hours. Perhaps, if you find yourself in John's situation where, regardless of the cause, you are spending the bulk of your time with the minority of the students, and this is very common, then I'd say print up a flier for the parents of new students, educational on the basics, and require a fitting or bow check prior to signing up for lessons. That might help, but it begins with education.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

In our club there are quite a few compound shooters that have been shooting for several years maybe a 1/4 of the class. Half the class is new recurve shooters and they take up 90% of the recurve coaches time and they only shoot for a few weeks. I feel the kids that have put in the most time are often over looked.

That to me is a waste of time.

A new compound shooter comes in im not going to help them unless they show some sort of dedication by coming for several weeks. It doesn't take long for the new shooters to see who is a good shooter and what equipment they have and it's not long before the crap they shoot has been upgraded.


Their form is fixed by example from other kids good form and the parrents are shown how to fix it. If they cant fix or dont want to fix their own gear ill fix it at home for a charge. But i want then to fix their own stuff and ill teach them how to do it.

Form on a compound is easy to fix with proper draw length and peep height. I dont care if their cams are in sync or their bow shoots a bullet hole. Thats advanced classes and those kids and their parrents have been taught baby steps along the way so its easy for me to coach them.

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## [W.S.Z] (Aug 6, 2012)

Although I've never coached kids in archery, I have experience in coaching/training kids in other sports. One experience that I've had in all of those sports is that parents can be a a real pain. While about three-quarters of parents are jfine, fifteen percent are just plainly amazing, about ten percent are pure horror. They know everything better than the coach, tell their children that they do not have to follow some rules set out by the coach, or feel that their child is entitled to more attention than the others. One time, a parent standing next to me told his son that if he didn't want to be substituted, he could just ignore me and stay in the field.

A solution I've found to this problem is clear guidelines with proper communication. Tell parents what they can expect of you as a coach before they sign up and keep to that promise. Sometimes, they might object, but that is their problem. I would set the line at minor technical adjustments during class and limit the time per class that you spend on those adjustments. During class, you're objective is to coach archery, not bow tuning, unless the aim of that specific lesson is just that. If someone needs special attention to their bow set-up, spend some time with them outside of class, if you're willing to do so. 

Also, the consequence of buying a second-hand bow without any knowledge about bows is that you might need to spend some money to have it set-up at a shop. That consequence should be the responsibility of the buyer and not become your problem. I think it's unjustified to give them the easy and cheap way out: _Let's buy a cheap second-hand bow and let the coach tune it for free_. If they bought the wrong bow as they didn't ask someone with experience to help them buy one, you're not going to take the monetary loss either, are you? The best thing you can do is direct them to a shop that does have a reputation of setting a bow up decently (it doesn't have to be tuned perfectly).


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> So, 80% of my time is spent working on the 20% of our 4-H archers who insist (or their parents do) on shooting a compound. Meanwhile, the recurve archers who make up about 80% of our students, get 20% of my time to help them REALLY learn how to shoot a bow.
> 
> Anyone else dealing with this?
> John


John, I think everyone is subject to the 80/20 Rule, Pareto, - business or life. Like Murphy's Law, it's part of every venture we take.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Dont have a problem with kids or parrents not obeying rules. All rules are strictly enforced. If there not obeyed they would be asked to leave. We bring this up every time we start shooting so they are aware of the rules.

If a parent thinks they know more then i do about setting up proper draw length and they dont, good i could care less how that kid looks or shoots. I simply wont waste my time with them. Its not worth my time to work on something then have a parent change it. 

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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Mulcade said:


> I'm a compounder and feel where you are coming from. It's a lot different than handing a kid a couple of sticks and a string. Like several have said, it's still a matter of once you have it set, it's good. Well, at least until they grow again next week...
> 
> That leads me into my suggestion. Designate one or two of the other coaches/instructors as the compound specialists. Send the kids over to those for tweaking and equipment issues. You can't do all of the coaching and equipment fixing yourself, there just isn't enough time. Delegate the compound equipment out to someone else. Get more people involved at the various levels. It might be a pain in the butt to teach someone else to pick up this task, but it'll more than pay off later.


I think that this should probably be the case with Recurve equipment as well. As a parent I have learned to select arrows and to tune my daughter's bow to relieve some pressure off her coach. What I don't mess with is clicker setting, which is tightly coupled with her form, and therefore properly in the domain of the coach. Once the bow is set up with a set of arrows, she can go months without tuning. Our last tuning session was a couple of weeks ago when she lost confidence in her bow -- turns out the cooling temperature had shifted her bow which was no longer in alignment.

A coach at a club has only a few minutes of quality time available for each archer in any given session -- in my opinion none of this time should be spent on tasks that could be delegated. The exception is probably with advanced archers where the equipment tuning really matters.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Before letting someone into a group lesson, simply make the requirement the equipment has to be checked and setup properly, either where you bought the bow or by you the coach...safety is rule #1.


I fail to see how this solves the time problem. The places they're getting these bows (Bass Pro, etc.) are the ones who don't know how to properly set them up for the kids, and I find myself undoing and re-doing what they should have done. So, if I can't just send them back to where they bought the bow, where does that leave them? 

It's easy to say "tell them to take it back to where they bought it" but when you live an hour from the nearest city, and you're dealing with families of very modest means, it's not that easy to look them in the eye and be that cold.



> If a parent thinks they know more then i do about setting up proper draw length and they dont, good i could care less how that kid looks or shoots. I simply wont waste my time with them. Its not worth my time to work on something then have a parent change it.


Now that's another matter entirely, and I couldn't agree more. I've told more than one parent that if they wanted to be their kids's bow mechanic, I was more than happy to let them.

John


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

HikerDave said:


> I think that this should probably be the case with Recurve equipment as well. As a parent I have learned to select arrows and to tune my daughter's bow to relieve some pressure off her coach. What I don't mess with is clicker setting, which is tightly coupled with her form, and therefore properly in the domain of the coach. Once the bow is set up with a set of arrows, she can go months without tuning. Our last tuning session was a couple of weeks ago when she lost confidence in her bow -- turns out the cooling temperature had shifted her bow which was no longer in alignment.
> 
> A coach at a club has only a few minutes of quality time available for each archer in any given session -- in my opinion none of this time should be spent on tasks that could be delegated. The exception is probably with advanced archers where the equipment tuning really matters.


So, when will you be available for cloning experiments? :darkbeer:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I fail to see how this solves the time problem. The places they're getting these bows (Bass Pro, etc.) are the ones who don't know how to properly set them up for the kids, and I find myself undoing and re-doing what they should have done. So, if I can't just send them back to where they bought the bow, where does that leave them?
> 
> It's easy to say "tell them to take it back to where they bought it" but when you live an hour from the nearest city, and you're dealing with families of very modest means, it's not that easy to look them in the eye and be that cold.John


Yes, sometimes these kids come in with nightmare compound set ups--either bought from a big box store or worse yet, the latest deal from Craig's list. But that does not mean that the class time needs to be taken up making the proper adjustments for those students. Really, who has the time in a class situation to perform a full tune on a bow--be it compound or recurve??? 

If it's a simple fix, then sure, slap that puppy into a press and be done with it, but if it's going to require a major overhaul, then there is the after class time that is available OR they can be referred not back to Bass Pro or wherever, but to a reputable archery shop in the area. If they are going to be serious about shooting and competing in this sport, they will sooner or later have to fork out some $$ and establish a working relationship with the area pro shops. 

This is not being cold, this is the reality of the sport. What happens if they are out shooting somewhere on their own and have an equipment issue? Are they going to call you and expect you to drop whatever you may be doing to drive the hour or so to their location to fix a slipped peep sight? I think not... Hopefully they will either make the adjustment on their own because they have been taught to perform minor repairs and adjustments on their equipment or they will pack up their things and head over the one of those pro shops they have established a relationship with. 

I'm not trying to get on your case about this as I have enjoyed your posts and have learned a lot from them, but it really is not that big of a time issue to have the compounders shooting and learning with the recurvers if the class time is managed well. Each will require some time for minor equipment tweaks, each will have their own set of shooting issues, but all of them are excited about learning this wonderful sport. I just believe there should be a lot less of the "us versus them" attitude, either stated or implied. Otherwise, how are more compounders going to decide to begin shooting FITA rounds or recurvers more field or 3D rounds if they perceive a schism exists between the ranks?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

montigre said:


> Yes, sometimes these kids come in with nightmare compound set ups--either bought from a big box store or worse yet, the latest deal from Craig's list. But that does not mean that the class time needs to be taken up making the proper adjustments for those students. Really, who has the time in a class situation to perform a full tune on a bow--be it compound or recurve???
> 
> If it's a simple fix, then sure, slap that puppy into a press and be done with it, but if it's going to require a major overhaul, then there is the after class time that is available OR they can be referred not back to Bass Pro or wherever, but to a reputable archery shop in the area. If they are going to be serious about shooting and competing in this sport, they will sooner or later have to fork out some $$ and establish a working relationship with the area pro shops.
> 
> ...



Excellent post. We make it very clear that class time is for instruction. All equipment issues, both compound and recurve, are to be dealt with by appointment, outside of class time. If someone comes in with equipment that is unsafe, or just not workable, we put one of our Genesis, or recurve bows, in their hands for the class.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If they are going to be serious about shooting and competing in this sport, they will sooner or later have to fork out some $$ and establish a working relationship with the area pro shops.


Yes, let's only deal with those who are 'serious' about the sport, whether or not they've ever tried it before. Their parents should be more than happy to cough up hudreds of dollars for their kid's new sport too.

Puh-lease. be real.

I love the elitist attitudes that crop up with topics like this. Expecting them to buckle down and "get serious" because, after all, the rest of us have, right? 

Well, we all started somewhere, and it probably wasn't in a pro-shop with a $400 bow.

Midway, your solution would work if time were unlimited and they could make "appointments" at will.

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

John, our solution does work and has for some time. We are spread too thin to deal with equipment issues during our limited class time.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Remember that john is talking about a 4h program. Not a JOAD. In other threads we have talked about how some programs have feeder programs. Think after school or free drop in programs. Not the program with mostly long time regulars. Most have probably only been shooting a few times. Many are probably not real well off.

DC


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

dchan said:


> Remember that john is talking about a 4h program. Not a JOAD. In other threads we have talked about how some programs have feeder programs. Think after school or free drop in programs. Not the program with mostly long time regulars. Most have probably only been shooting a few times. Many are probably not real well off.
> DC


I know John is referring to a 4H program, that's why I felt compelled to answer. The classes our club teach are put on by the county that run for a 5 week period twice per year and are geared toward children and adults who have never touched a bow before. The classes are broken down into four groups and each group has about 35 new archers participating. Under those circumstances, it is not reasonable to perform major equipment adjustments during the class time. If their gear is not workable for them, they, as has already been mentioned, get handed a recurve or genesis bow to use for the class time and are instructed on why this was done. They can make arrangements to have work done on their gear afterward. 

I'm not speaking of only those who are serious about the sport or those who are better off financially; however, most people, if they have taken the steps to purchase their own equipment, then they have already displayed some measure of seriousness about their undertaking of the sport. They can be just as serious about becoming a recreational shooter as those who may have higher aspirations in mind. That does not mean that they should not become aware of and learn to use the resources that are available for them. That's just part of educating them about archery. Those resources will eventually become their lifeline as they progress in their shooting, either in their back yards, or toeing the line with other competitors. 

Unfortunately, the thinly veiled elitist attitude was generated with the first two words of the original post..."compounds! ugh!"... and that is the second reason I felt compelled to respond. Being one of the very few compounders from my area who does cross over and competes in a FITA or two per year and who teaches intro to archery classes, I saw no need to place such a negative separation between the two shooting styles. It takes no more time to perform a minor equipment adjustment for a compound as it does for a recurve if your facility has the proper equipment and experience and neither style of shooter should expect an instructor (not a coach--that is a different ball game all together) to make more involved adjustments to their gear during a class situation. That's just a common courtesy.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It takes no more time to perform a minor equipment adjustment for a compound as it does for a recurve* IF* your facility has the proper equipment and experience


Operative word there is "IF"...

So, "IF" they don't, then what? 

I'm not buying the "compounds are as easy to work on as recurves" argument. I think we all know better. With a recurve, I AM the bow press. Plus, no peep to adjust because it won't rotate right, or tubing to break, or cams to time, or modules to adjust, or trigger release to adjust, or drop-away rest that won't drop away, etc.

Yes, recurves can have issues too and Lord knows I've dealt with all of them, but whenever a beginning archer chooses a tool with 5X as many parts to check and adjust, you can count on more maintenance.

The only thing I have against compounds is that they make a simple sport more complicated than I think it needs to be. And that's fine for intermediate or advanced archers, but for rank beginners, it's a recipe for disaster.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure everyone that enjoys their compound doesn't mind the extra complications, or frankly might even enjoy them vs. a simpler bow. Heck, sometimes I enjoy the challenge of shooting a compound too. They are fun to shoot and offer a unique challenge vs. a recurve.

As for handing them a recurve or genesis bow, I've tried. The other night, after the third time a young archer brought me his compound because it wasn't "shooting right," I pointed to the stack of recurves on the tables and told him there were plenty of bows over there for him to choose from. He and his mother were not amused.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"Unfortunately, the thinly veiled elitist attitude was generated with the first two words of the original post..."compounds! ugh!"_"

I cannot agree with this interpretation. 

My observation is that Limbwalker is one of the most 'egalitarian' archers around, with no discernible strain of elitism. He hunts, he shoots field, he shoots target. He shoots barebow, he shoots Olympic recurve, he probably shoots compound some, too. He coaches/instructs both recurve kids and compound kids. 

His 'passing lament' was about the sudden influx of vehicles that were clogging his pathway home from work, and he used the words 'compounds, ugh' to identify the preponderance of the type of vehicles that were causing the traffic jams. Substitute 'Harleys, ugh!' for a comment about the occasional sudden influx of traffic jams around Sturgis, ND. Or substitute 'pickup trucks' for compounds, and I35 for 'shooting class', and Austin for 'archery range' ... someone living in Austin for the last 20 years might lament the huge growth of traffic pressure on Austin's highway system by commenting "Pickups, ugh!", expressing the frustration of the increase in traffic jams, and identifying 'pickups' because pickups comprise the bulk of the increased number of vehicles, not because the commenter is sneering down his nose downward at 'pickups'. If 90% of the visuals blockages were being caused by motorhomes, the commenter would likely scream "Motorhomes, Ugh!" I have a Frontier midsized pickup, and I gripe all the time about some "damn blacked out windowed pickup" in front of me that I can't see around (some huge Ford F350 4x4 is usually the culprit). I certainly don't have an 'elitist bias' against pickups - I'm driving one! - it just gives a face to what is frustrating me in this specific situation.) 

If most of the these newbie, movie struck kids went to Bass Pro to buy bows, and Bass Pro was selling these kids crossbows instead of compounds, then I suspect John's headline would be different (maybe 'Crossbows, ugh!'), as his lament (at least as I interpreted it) merely tagged the commonest identifier representing the biggest share of the influx of incoming equipment that was overloading his existing capacity for instruction of archery students.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I truly do feel your angst and appreciate your frustrations. Perhaps it is because our class situation is set up differently that I do not feel such a time crunch that you do with yours. We run our classes with a handful of instructors; three instructors on a three-tier shooting line, each providing individualized instruction to each child while he/she is on line and shooting. Then there are 1 or 2 instructors in the “pack” or more properly designated as the waiting area, who are making sure everyone is following the safety rules and not doing anything that could cause injury to self or others, finally we have 1 person at the equipment hand out area who can perform little tweaks to a participant’s equipment if necessary. We rotate though areas of responsibility during session changes so no one instructor gets too fatigued or can take a mental break from the occasional mayhem. 

If you’re running your classes as a 1-person does all affair, I can see where time taken to do everything could become very overwhelming, but that is a time management issue and not an equipment use issue. Those people with big box nightmares can always be given the opportunity to pay a little extra for one-on-one time apart from the actual class to fix their equipment issues with the understanding that you are not taking the place of a reputable pro shop and that a pro shop is the venue they should seek out for their future (major) equipment issues. If a parent gets huffy about their child having to use your equipment instead of their own because it’s poorly fitting or flat out unsafe, then gently explain to them that you are simply looking out for their child’s best interests, and instruct them, again apart from class, how their child’s equipment problem can be best corrected—either with a tweak or a recommendation for better fitting equipment. I believe most would probably appreciate the effort.

We have parents who come to us on day one of class asking about what type of equipment to purchase for little Johnny who has never shot a bow before. We advise those parents to wait until at least the end of the 5-week session or maybe even after a following session before making any equipment purchases to see if the child remains interested. Then the discussion of what type of equipment—recurve or compound is discussed. What does that child envision him or herself doing with the sport? If it’s just to go out hunting with a relative, then the choice is a little easier. If it’s to start in one of the NASP programs, that choice is also pretty easy, If it’s to transition into one of the area JOAD programs, then we need to get a little more in depth with them and educate them as best as we can so they can make the best choices. 

So, yes, compound archery is more technically complicated and there is a learning curve that must be navigated, to some extent, if you’re going to get the most out of it. I also fully agree with you that it is not necessarily the best system for a rank beginner to use in order to learn the fundamentals of the sport. And yes, I may have allowed my own sensitivity toward the subject, after personally hearing comments against compound shooters that were not as innocently made as yours, from my fellow recurve competitors, taint my opinion of your original post.

Whew, that was a lot to write…. :smile:


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

I like Gabe's idea. It's very hard to spend enough time with the kids that need it without being a bow tech too. I've been thinking about breaking the youth program up into beginner and advanced groups. Then have each at different times. That way the beginners can learn which end of the arrow goes where and you can keep a closer eye on them while still be able to work with the more advanced kids later. Having been a compound shooter for over 20 years with a little OLY recurve strumming mixed in I have a lot of respect for both disciplines. Getting a bow, compound or recurve set up right is not easy. You don't have a pro shop with competent bow techs on every street corner. People have to rely on the big box store or their Uncle's, Friend's, roommate's, cousin by marriage to set up their kid's bow they got off Ebay.

I'd say either do like Gabe said or find someone who is willing and capable of working on the bows for you. Designate that person to work on the compounds and give you the time to work with everyone else. That way all the kids have a positive archery experience. Good luck and keep up the good fight.


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## wurmz (Oct 13, 2012)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Excellent post. We make it very clear that class time is for instruction. All equipment issues, both compound and recurve, are to be dealt with by appointment, outside of class time. If someone comes in with equipment that is unsafe, or just not workable, we put one of our Genesis, or recurve bows, in their hands for the class.


I am a beginner and this guy is 100% right. Lessons are for instruction, not bow maintenance, unless you are signing up for a bow maintenance class specifically. If I came in and asked the teacher to work on my bow, I would imagine the rest of the students would get pissed, as I would if someone else came in and did the same thing.


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## NCstick (Aug 14, 2011)

TheOldNewbie said:


> I did not read this as a rant against compound shooters. I read it as frustration about spending so much time having to set up compound bows that it leaves little time to actually train the shooters.


Let me guess, you shoot traditional or recurve don't you? That's why you didn't see it that way. 

It's archery people, I shoot a compound for hunting and tournaments. I also play around with a recurve every now and then. It's fun but, I don't like it as much. Just not my thing. I could go on and say that these more primitive bows should no longer be used for hunting due to the lack of speed an the higher chance of injuring a deer but, I don't. Why? Because we are archers and it doesn't matter what weapon we use. 

I under stand the frustration of tuning a compound but, it's really not that bad if you know what you are doing. If you don't, it could do more harm than good putting an Allen wrench on one. I'm not saying the OP doesn't know what he is doing and I am sure some of the parents think they are super tuners and that doesn't help but, come on. Just enjoy it and be glad the kids have a bow of any kind in their hands and not a laptop or video game controller.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

I think that shooting a recurve is the hardest thing to do in archery. I have been shooting more than 50 years. I started with a recurve because that was all there was. I always shot BB & was a state champion. A long time ago of course. Then I shot FS with a sight & release & did quite well. Then came compounds. I felt it was a better way to go. I set up my own bow, & it never changes . My strings don't twist or stretch. At my age, if I had to go to a recurve, I would take up bowling . I took my grandson 14 years old, Who never shot a bow in his life, & put a PSE compound in his hands. He has a tox sight, a Brite Site scope with with an X view lens, a copper john release & a Pro Tuner rest. Took him to the out door Nationals in Mechanicsburg . He cleaned the the animal round , his first time seeing one, & shot over 500 for the other rounds. That is after shooting 1 year. I think that if he was started on a recurve, He still would be trying to get set up. All the recurve shooters at the club do is mess with the button & strings. It seems to take a 1/2 hour to set up their bow before they get to shoot the first arrow. Granted they are not in Brady's class. I think that a properly set up compound is much easier to teach a youngster archery. When they don't progress quickly, they soon lose interest.That is the way of the world today. every one want's it yesterday. 
One of the biggest problem that exists is that there are to many suppliers of equipment that only have the bottom line for their interests.


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## EABB (Sep 23, 2012)

The way i see it, it would be easier to have a special class and teach your students to do the minor adjustments by themselves, and when they are more advanced you can teach them the advanced stuff, like how to tune or to change cables/strings. I have been shooting since i was 12 y/o and where i used to shoot i was the first compound, so i had to actually learn how to do everything by myself when i was like 13 y/o, lets say my dad wasn't the most knowledgeable person about archery and got me a compound instead of a recurve. 

The art of tuning a bow is not that complicated once you get the basics right, and to be honest, a state of the art tuning is not necessary for most of the people, some basic alignment and synchrony suffice until you are real serious and are shooting close groups at 70m, then by all means, you are ready to fine tune your bow, otherwise is just a waste of time and effort.

And finally, despite my preference for compound bows, i don't think archers should be allowed to start shooting compound until they have passed by a recurve, recurve is the best tool to get a good form early and to really set the basics on archery, so the best you could do is forbid the compounds for the begginers and let them shoot some training recurves until the time you will spend on their compounds will not be wasted.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

A similar perspective on this whole issue ...

For many years I taught basic computer classes. We had a classroom setup with about 20 identical computers, with the same programs, program options, file structure, and sample files on all of them. I could keep a large group on track because I know the equipment was set up correctly and all worked the same.

With the advent of laptop computers, some students asked if they could bring in their own.

In one of the intermediate classes, with only 6 students that quarter, I relented and said they could bring their own computers.

Now I had a variety of operating systems, some had Microsoft Office installed and others didn't, Some had standard program options and others had been modified, none had the class sample files installed ...

So I spent a LOT of class time just trying to get the outliers on track, and those with the class standard equipment didn't get as much attention from me as they usually would have.

Won't do it again except in an advanced class, with ony a few students, and all have their own equipment. I wouldn't try to accomplish a standard syllabus, just how to work with what they have.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

brtesite said:


> One of the biggest problem that exists is that there are to many suppliers of equipment that only have the bottom line for their interests.


Mike, I have to agree with you 100% on this issue. When I first started in this sport, and it really has not been that long ago, the number of manufacturers of seemingly similar equipment, each with their own take on why their brand x is so much better than the other guy's brand y, had my head spinning in a 100 different directions when I really needed to have been concentrating on simply learning to shoot. It took listening to the advice of some very good shooters I've come to know and a lot of trial and error to learn to separate the many gimmicks and/or lesser quality equipment pieces and manufacturers from those I can rely on day in and day out. This from the most menial piece of equipment (blade rests) to the most complex (bows). 

Maybe this is what is making archery too complex, and not the simple fact that there are simply different shooting platforms from which to enjoy the sport. How, if living in a more remote area, is a new or novice archer supposed to learn (without spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in the process) what equipment is reliable and would best suit their needs and aspirations? With all of these choices that encompass all forms of archery, how are mom and pop supposed wade through all of the misinformation and properly outfit little Johnny? 

Mike, I think you put a little something special in your grandson's fedora at Nats...he surely tore those ranges up!! Very nice shooting!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh stop with the whole "elitist" nonsense already... 

Larry's post summed it up quite well. If it were the recurve kids who were lined up for the 3rd time that night with something wrong, I'd have no problem stating "recurves, UGH!" 

But it isn't.

It's the compounds. Always the compounds.

In our 4-H program, we have approx. 30 kids who shoot regularly, and of them, about 8-10 shoot compound. In the past month, I can think of 3 kids shooting recurve that had a legitimate equipment issue (top limb on bottom, string upside down, rest fell off, etc.) Most all our kids are shooting wood-handled polaris-type recurves, and most without a sight. (USArchery, are you listening? MOST WITHOUT A SIGHT.... Ehem  ) 

Anyway, the issues with the 9-10 compounds are nearly non stop. Why? Because THESE KIDS ARE GROWING! 

With a recurve - not a problem so long as the arrows are long enough for them (which we make sure they are). But with a compound, this is a problem. If it were just as simple as moving two screws for the modules, then heck, I'd be happy as a pig in mud. But I think we all know there's a bit more to it than that...

No, no agenda against compounds here. In fact, I'll probably be shooting one this time next year myself. I think they are interesting tools to compete with and they create a unique aspect of competition within archery that is very different from recurve. I'm glad we have them, because frankly the recurve just can't hold the interest very long for a certain segment of the population who enjoy using tehcnical equipment, or who physically need to use the compound.

So yea, go back and read Larry's post. 

(and Larry, I agree on the 4x4 dually diesels with the blacked-out windows! ha, ha.  But thankfully, they're usually going so fast that you don't get stuck behind them for long!)

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> How, if living in a more remote area, is a new or novice archer supposed to learn (without spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in the process) what equipment is reliable and would best suit their needs and aspirations? With all of these choices that encompass all forms of archery, how are mom and pop supposed wade through all of the misinformation and properly outfit little Johnny?


Yes, this is where we're at. A whole lot of very confused and frustrated parents. I'm doing what I can, when I can, one family at a time, but it's definitely a process...



> Those people with big box nightmares can always be given the opportunity to pay a little extra for one-on-one time


Man, I'm starting to wish I had a dollar for every person who's solution to time management is charging fees. Seriously?

I've yet to have anyone explain to me how accepting a fee creates more time. Anyone? 

Folks, all that does is drive away families who aren't *yet* willing to invest in archery. And the operative word there is "yet." If you drive them away before they really understand the sport and create the positive relationships that we all enjoy from participating in archery, then who have you served?

I can tell you without a doubt that if we started charging $50/hour for equipment tuning, we'd lose probably 20% of our families in the 4-H program. Or, if not lose them completely, the kids would develop serious shooting issues from using equipment that wasn't set properly for them - or worse, injure themselves.

"opportunity to pay..." LOL. That's the problem with the world today. Too many "opportunities to pay."


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> I like Gabe's idea. It's very hard to spend enough time with the kids that need it without being a bow tech too. I've been thinking about breaking the youth program up into beginner and advanced groups. Then have each at different times. That way the beginners can learn which end of the arrow goes where and you can keep a closer eye on them while still be able to work with the more advanced kids later. Having been a compound shooter for over 20 years with a little OLY recurve strumming mixed in I have a lot of respect for both disciplines. Getting a bow, compound or recurve set up right is not easy. You don't have a pro shop with competent bow techs on every street corner. People have to rely on the big box store or their Uncle's, Friend's, roommate's, cousin by marriage to set up their kid's bow they got off Ebay.
> 
> I'd say either do like Gabe said or find someone who is willing and capable of working on the bows for you. Designate that person to work on the compounds and give you the time to work with everyone else. That way all the kids have a positive archery experience. Good luck and keep up the good fight.



Bryan,

We did split our group into a beginner line and what we call the 'competition line'. The beginners start shooting at 9m, must go through an evaluation before joining (yeah, not every kid has the maturity to be on the line) and are only allowed 2 unexcused absences (If kids and parents want a drop in, no commitment experience we are not the program for them), before being dropped from the class. We've established a waiting list of new shooters who want to join the club. 

The competition line must own their own equipment, commit to practice and commit to shoot tournaments.

We had to create new policies and rules, including not working on equipment during class times. This has cut back on the chaos. 

Good luck with the program Bryan. Let's get the clubs to hold a joint shoot for pins!

Gabe


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

montigre said:


> Mike, I have to agree with you 100% on this issue. When I first started in this sport, and it really has not been that long ago, the number of manufacturers of seemingly similar equipment, each with their own take on why their brand x is so much better than the other guy's brand y, had my head spinning in a 100 different directions when I really needed to have been concentrating on simply learning to shoot. It took listening to the advice of some very good shooters I've come to know and a lot of trial and error to learn to separate the many gimmicks and/or lesser quality equipment pieces and manufacturers from those I can rely on day in and day out. This from the most menial piece of equipment (blade rests) to the most complex (bows).
> 
> Maybe this is what is making archery too complex, and not the simple fact that there are simply different shooting platforms from which to enjoy the sport. How, if living in a more remote area, is a new or novice archer supposed to learn (without spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in the process) what equipment is reliable and would best suit their needs and aspirations? With all of these choices that encompass all forms of archery, how are mom and pop supposed wade through all of the misinformation and properly outfit little Johnny?
> 
> Mike, I think you put a little something special in your grandson's fedora at Nats...he surely tore those ranges up!! Very nice shooting!!


He is really a funny kid. When we four shoot together, low man has to buy lunch. His dad told him to either bring his wallet or his game. He told his dad that he brought his game. He hasn't bought lunch yet. It is strange though that they always bring me the bill.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Yes, this is where we're at. A whole lot of very confused and frustrated parents. I'm doing what I can, when I can, one family at a time, but it's definitely a process...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


John, your right. We just have a different demographic. I have followed this thread sometimes laughing as you are experiencing what I have put up with for 18 years and sometimes with frustration at some of the solutions and attitudes here without knowing our customers. We spend more time coaching parents than we do kids. Practices truly are like battle field triage. The decent kids with no equipment issues hardly ever get any of our time. I am dating myself, but some of us are old enough to remember the Ed Sullivan show and there was a frequent act (Erich Brenn) where the guy spun plates and bowls on sticks. Trying to keep all the plates spinning was a constant challenge. If you have ever seen that, welcome to 4H archery. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhoos1oY404)


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

John, I know you don't like to hear this but it's simply how business works. If 80% of the time you have available is spent with 20% of your clients, you get rid of that 20%. You don't have to charge, you don't have to insult them, simply make a rule change. It's no different than having an employee that takes up meeting time because of the lack of education

Have everyone use recurves when they show up. If kids want compounds, great, they can graduate from a recurve then, they and the parents must test into a compound. When both parents and kids test out, the compound bow will be allowed. If they don't like it, too bad. You have a duty to everyone, not just a limited few. Companies that don't recognize this often fail or have significant struggle.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, Tom, I know you get it. Teaching archery in rural America (and I don't mean the "suburbs") is still one heck of a challenge. Yea, it's EXACTLY like keeping a whole bunch of plates spinning, for sure. But man it's fun, ain't it! 

Fury, you make a good point, but this is a non-profit venture and I'm not going to turn anyone away. I'm just frustrated that one type of bow seems to produce 80% of the equipment issues. 

What Tom and I battle every week is the constant notion by many parents that their little Billy or Susie is going to use the same bow for 4-H (or JOAD) and for HUNTING! Even though that kid has only shot for a matter of weeks, and even though they are like, 8 or 9 or 10 years old, and even though they couldn't pull 25# if their life depended on it. But these parents don't want to spend hundreds of bucks on multiple bows, and they want a bow their kid can eventually hunt with.

Enter the youth compound "hunting" bows...

Usually, neither the parent, or the child, has the first idea how to set it up properly, much less shoot it. 

Many of these kids shot the 4-H recurves for a little while, but quickly got bored or realized they couldn't "hunt" with a lightweight recurve. Hence the mini camo bow...

'Round these parts, a non-camo target compound is as rare as hen's teeth.

John


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> What Tom and I battle every week is the constant notion by many parents that their little Billy or Susie is going to use the same bow for 4-H (or JOAD) and for HUNTING! Even though that kid has only shot for a matter of weeks, and even though they are like, 8 or 9 or 10 years old, and even though they couldn't pull 25# if their life depended on it. But these parents don't want to spend hundreds of bucks on multiple bows, and they want a bow their kid can eventually hunt with. John


Would it be feasible to have just a separate hunters education class for those young shooters and their parents who's only drive is to be able to get out into the woods? That way, those compounders who are learning for recreation or eventual target play and who may have more realistic expectations of themselves and their equipment could be meshed with the "non-hunting group" and those who feel their young child should be able to take a prize P&Y buck in their first year with a youth bow after only 6 lessons could have a group of their own, with the emphasis of that class being hunter safety and such? That way no one is turned away and the group dynamics are better evened out and class time for the "non-hunting group" could possibly be more devoted to instruction instead of equipment maintenance because their overall focus is of a different nature. IDK, just a thought.....


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> 'Round these parts, a non-camo target compound is as rare as hen's teeth.
> 
> John


Sounds like what I encountered in Maine when I lived there. I was even told by an archery shop worker that I should buy a camo bow because I'd never be able to sell a target-colored bow should I choose to. I ignored his advice and through the magic of the internet I was able to sell the thing when I wanted to. In more rural areas, if it isn't hunting or camo, they don't know much about it.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

montigre said:


> Would it be feasible to have just a separate hunters education class for those young shooters and their parents who's only drive is to be able to get out into the woods? That way, those compounders who are learning for recreation or eventual target play and who may have more realistic expectations of themselves and their equipment could be meshed with the "non-hunting group" and those who feel their young child should be able to take a prize P&Y buck in their first year with a youth bow after only 6 lessons could have a group of their own, with the emphasis of that class being hunter safety and such? That way no one is turned away and the group dynamics are better evened out and class time for the "non-hunting group" could possibly be more devoted to instruction instead of equipment maintenance because their overall focus is of a different nature. IDK, just a thought.....


Probably not given the mentality of most hunters. For most hunters, at least in Texas, the bow only comes out a week or two before the season starts and goes back in the case as soon as the season is over. The only way we're going to be able to get a commitment out of the archer is to mix them in with other archers so that archery only becomes a means of getting them together and not the primary goal. This is especially true in 4H, though you can get more of a 50/50 mix in JOAD. If you group all the 'hunters' together in their own group, it's very possible they could all quit coming when November comes along. If this were TomB's post, he would talk about the whole process being less about archery and more about building up young people.



> John, I know you don't like to hear this but it's simply how business works. If 80% of the time you have available is spent with 20% of your clients, you get rid of that 20%. You don't have to charge, you don't have to insult them, simply make a rule change. It's no different than having an employee that takes up meeting time because of the lack of education


I have to say, that is a poor business practice. Getting rid of difficult customers accomplishes only one thing. Creating a group of people that will speak out against you with great energy. Word of mouth is the greatest advertising, but can also be the worst when you create a group of people that are against you. On the flip side, those that demand the most time are also often the most vocal advocates you can have on your side because they appreciate what you do.

Disclaimer: There is an exception to every rule and there are certainly exceptions in this case.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mulcade is correct.

Texas will never be - despite "uncle Ted's" pipe dream - the #1 bowhunting state. Not even close. Guns rule 'round here, plain and simple. One of the largest on-line mail order ammo companies is just an hour up the road from us. The fact that these kids are even interested in archery is very encouraging to me. 

In other parts of the country, the sport of archery, and bowhunting are commonly accepted. Down here, anyone who picks up a bow is subject to the old "why don't you just shoot it with a gun?" question, or worse. So no, I'm not going to turn away a kid even if their only interest is bowhunting. To me, at least that's a start, and hopefully they will learn to enjoy the sport of archery, the way I did after 20+ archery deer seasons.

What we lack around here are archery shops. Real archery shops - not the Bass pro counter. You know, the places that most of us used to hang out when we were kids, and without even realizing it, we picked up a lot of knowlege about shooting, tuning, building arrows, fixing bows, rules, etc. along the way.

Maybe when I retire... 

John


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> What we lack around here are archery shops. Real archery shops - not the Bass pro counter. You know, the places that most of us used to hang out when we were kids, and without even realizing it, we picked up a lot of knowlege about shooting, tuning, building arrows, fixing bows, rules, etc. along the way.


Amen to that. We have a very active collegiate archery club here at A&M and a pretty good sized 3D club, but still no archery shop that caters to target shooters. We have our big box stores in Gander and Academy and then one local pro shop that I won't even do business with.

Heck, my JOAD group meets at the Gander just because they have a well kept range.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

College Station is ripe for a "real" archery shop. Can't believe nobody has opened one there. Not a bad place to live either...


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Maybe I can convince Hojnacki to open one up...


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

John, I was talking to Kevin at Viking Archery, here in Houston, a few days ago about utilizing a space down the street from me (old Kroger grocery store). He said he's been wanting to open a shop in Sealy, Texas. I think that would work well in that area. There are a lot of bowhunters (unsure of target shooters) in that neck of woods and many hate going to the big box stores.

it's interesting, even the shops here in Houston don't carry much target archery equipment....though they'll order anything you want.

Maybe if enough people call him, he'd move on the deal....Though I think Tim, his dad, would need to be more convinced.

They've got another shop but it's in Canyon Lake...probably a bit too far for your students and their parents much less from College Station.


Oh, yea and the ammo place- Ammo to go? If that's who you're referring to, yea, they got a lot of it...I need to make a trip out there again.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

The 80/20 rule is ubiquitous, a label that seeks to describe a 'truism' for which confirmation can be found almost everywhere you look. It's certainly not poor business practice - quite the opposite, in fact. It's a 'rule' that just means to 'focus on the things/customers/projects/responsibilities that matter the most'. For those interested, here is a Google link to findings for 80/20 rule: https://www.google.com/search?q=80%2F20+rule&rlz=1C1_____enUS407US408&aq=f&oq=80%2F20+rule&aqs=chrome.0.57j58j5j0l2j60.2548&sugexp=chrome,mod=3&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mulcade said:


> Maybe I can convince Hojnacki to open one up...


Yea, now that he's in the area. Heck, give me a few years and I'll come up and help him run it.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, now that he's in the area. Heck, give me a few years and I'll come up and help him run it.


"The way to end up with a million dollars in the archery business? Start with two million dollars"


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

TomB said:


> "The way to end up with a million dollars in the archery business? Start with two million dollars"


Heh..

That sounds like our classic ski instructor joke..

What the difference between a ski instructor and a mutual fund..?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

TomB said:


> "The way to end up with a million dollars in the archery business? Start with two million dollars"


one of the more accurate statements I have ever seen on this forum:thumbs_up


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dchan said:


> Heh..
> 
> That sounds like our classic ski instructor joke..
> 
> What's the difference between a ski instructor and a mutual fund..?


The mutual fund will eventually mature and make money.


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## Dado (Aug 1, 2004)

John just make a price list (for tuning both compound and recurve) and see how fast parents learn to work on their kids' bows.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

dchan said:


> Heh..
> 
> That sounds like our classic ski instructor joke..
> 
> What the difference between a ski instructor and a mutual fund..?


There isn't any...they both go downhill...


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> There isn't any...they both go downhill...


Wrong. A mutual fund extracts management fees and loses money. Go with the ski bum.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Oh well. Guess its a dated joke. Well managed mutual funds used to make money (eventually)

On that note.. Sorry for the small hijack but I can't resist:tongue:

What's the difference between a professional archery coach and an extra large pizza?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, well put


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

dchan said:


> Oh well. Guess its a dated joke. Well managed mutual funds used to make money (eventually)
> 
> On that note.. Sorry for the small hijack but I can't resist:tongue:
> 
> What's the difference between a professional archery coach and an extra large pizza?


An extra-large pizza can feed a small family.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Back to the OP, I have a suggestion for Limbwalker (I did not read all 4 pages do to the, umm, discussions, so it may have already been suggested).

Have a "compound instruction only" night for the shooters AND their parents. This is not about shooting but classroom time for instructing on how to adjust their bow's accessories while shooting. Instruct them to bring the necessary tools...allen wrenches (standard and metric), small screwdrivers if needed. Show them how to adjust their sights, how to adjust their modules (if relevant), how to adjust their limb bolts and how to tighten every screw on the bow.

You may size up each archer and their bow and make suggestions. This may cut down on the amount of shooting time consumed by attending to simple compound problems. It also gets the parents involved so you would be less of an unpaid baby sitter. 

You may need to get an assistant versed in compounds. Although not a coach, when we have young'uns having problems with compounds, I will generally step in and see if there is something I can contribute...from adjusting bows, form suggestions and corrections, etc. It is not that our coaches are not capable but there are many students and few of them. It helps to spread the workload.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Not knowing 4H as well as I should, I've found out that each state has its own set of rules that doesnt seem to match up with other states. MSU's program doesnt allow backtension hinges, while Nebraska's UNL says nothing about it.

I am very curious if other 4H programs see mostly hunting style compounds or open freestyle type compounds.

I know in Arizona, most 4H programs see hunting style compounds.

I'm guessing John and others are seeing mostly hunting compounds as well in their programs. 

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mostly hunting compounds, and mostly the youth versions at that. Lots of whisker biscuits pressed into target work 'round here 

HDRacer, I like your suggestion. I think I'll do that for both compound archers and recurve archers. Just set aside a couple hours for each group.



> You may need to get an assistant versed in compounds


 LOL. Around here? You're "talking" to him.  

Texas is a gun state, not a bow state. You can find a mom and pop gun store - and even custom gunsmiths - in nearly every small town of 2500 people or more. But even cities the size of Austin or Dallas may have only one decent archery shop. It's kinda crazy really!


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Lots of whisker biscuits pressed into target work 'round here
> 
> 
> LOL. Around here? You're "talking" to him.


Hah,

There's a recipe for frustration. Whisker biscuit, feathers and an out of tune youth bow, probably poor alignment if the DL is too long or too short or the youth trying to shoot with their fingers. Talk about having clearance and arrow flight problems! "What's that strange "SNAP" every time I shoot?"

any one buying stock in a fletching business out there?


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

dchan said:


> Hah,
> 
> There's a recipe for frustration. Whisker biscuit, feathers and an out of tune youth bow, probably poor alignment if the DL is too long or too short or the youth trying to shoot with their fingers. Talk about having clearance and arrow flight problems! "What's that strange "SNAP" every time I shoot?"
> 
> any one buying stock in a fletching business out there?


My wife and daughter both shot very well with a whisker biscuit rest and a Micro Midas 3 bow (now available at Lancaster as the "USA Archery" compound. (Since then my wife has graduated to a true target compound.)

Of course they used vanes and the bow was properly set up for them at a shop. But because of their experience I really don't have anything bad to say about compounds and I don't think that a whisker biscuit is such a bad thing for a new archer.

We had a very young guy who showed up at your beginner class with a compound that was set way too high -- the guy was resistant to dropping the draw weight because he wanted to hunt -- he even increased the draw weight on his bow when his dad wasn't paying attention. It was painful to watch him struggle, but now about 6 months later he shoots quite accurately. Sometimes they just have to work things out for themselves, I guess.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

As always there are some successful configurations. I have seen lots of whisker biscuits set up incorrectly, with some shooting feathers/fingers and about every third attow through stripped a feather or two. And it wasn't a poorly attached feather issue. The feathers were being stripped off the quill. I've seen some horribly setup bows with whisker biscuits and have no issues what soever so it can go either way. Whisker biscuits are nice for kids that can't keep the arrow on a conventional rest.. That they excel at.

DC


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> Hah,
> 
> There's a recipe for frustration. Whisker biscuit, feathers and an out of tune youth bow, probably poor alignment if the DL is too long or too short or the youth trying to shoot with their fingers. Talk about having clearance and arrow flight problems! "What's that strange "SNAP" every time I shoot?"
> 
> any one buying stock in a fletching business out there?


I AM the fletching business out here...


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> I AM the fletching business out here...


Is it too late to buy stock? 



Oh wait, what was that about how to run an archery business and end up with a million bucks?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

dchan said:


> Is it too late to buy stock?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wait, what was that about how to run an archery business and end up with a million bucks?


Start with 2 just like a fly shop


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