# Lets talk about grip and wrist positions.



## ThunderEagle

I'm at a point where I think I need to find a more repeatable wrist/grip positioning. I've noticed that if I have more pressure/contact up at the V between my thumb and index finger, I will end up pushing the shot low. On the flip side, too much heel with the fleshing part of the palm and I push shots high. Maybe I need to get a creep tune in, in fact it is almost certainly needed, as my dl setting has changed since I did it last.

However, where my shot seems to be the most consistent, is also about where it feels the least natural. Can anyone give any insight into how they are approaching this? Hopefully Coach Morelli and Sonny will comment, as well as any and everyone else.


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## Mahly

Some of it will be down to your hand size, and the angle/shape of your grip.
I have pretty large hands, and I end up running out of room for my fingers when I use a low wrist. So even though I think I would rather use a low wrist grip, it simply doesn't work for me.
I use a more medium grip now, and just letting things fall where they want, I get a pretty torque free grip.
I can normally grab a bow that was tuned with a Hooter Shooter, and have identical results (tuning wise at least).
I too would like to hear from those that have a little more knowledge about grip angle/effect on shooting/tuning.
I honestly think my grip is one of the few things I don't need much work on, but I do not see a medium/high grip being used by many pros.
That doesn't necessarily mean anything, but there is a good reason most use a lower grip. Of course, none of them have my hands, but I'm thinking guys like Levi, or Tim G may have to deal with something similar.


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## jelmore

Bernie Pellerite recommends a low wrist grip as being the easiest to repeat. I tried it and my arrow impact was about 5 inches higher than the mediumish grip I had been using. Been working on my shot a lot with only a bare shaft. I was having trouble with torque (bare shaft hitting nock left) to where I had to consciously apply more pressure to my index finger(clockwise) to remove this torque and get good bareshaft flight. I read a biomechanics article about how tensing the tricep muscle (which I was doing to keep a straight bow arm) actually activate muscles in the arm that will cause the forearm to supinate(rotate palm down) and cause the wrist to extend (knuckles towards forearm) aka my torque problem. Been working on keeping my arm straight without flexing my tricep muscle and do not have the torque problem any more, still using the low wrist.


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## ArcherXXX300

I say completely relax the bow hand when you put it on the bow and leave it completely relaxed throughout the entire shot, loop height will also play a factor similar to tiller tuning in how the grip naturally rests in your completely relaxed dead bow hand....just my opinion.


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## Coug09

Low wrist is most definitely the easiest to repeat. Depending on what coach you talk to, some say it may cause some extra tension in your bow forearm. The grip on your bow plays a pretty big factor in what kind of grip may work best for you. You can shoot almost any grip on any bow but some bow grips promote "gripping" (or holding) the bow one way or another. I use a fairly low wrist.


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## montigre

Here's a video of George Ryals building up the grip wtih Sugru to change grip angle. He also describes briefly the rational for doing this. I used the Sugru on my PCE that has a lower grip placement and angle than previous Hoyt bows and found it to be much easier to tune and more stable while pulling through the shot after the application. The reduced tension noticed in the bow forearm was also surprisingly significant. 





And here is a very long discussion regarding grip pressure. There a lot of good information in the thread, but there is also some incorrect stuff, so read with this knowledge. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2121147


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## redman

Sugru to change grip angle. If any one would like to try a sugru grip I have few packs you could try .I did not like it


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## cbrunson

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I say completely relax the bow hand when you put it on the bow and leave it completely relaxed throughout the entire shot, loop height will also play a factor similar to tiller tuning in how the grip naturally rests in your completely relaxed dead bow hand....just my opinion.


This is my opinion as well. You eliminate one more thing to try to keep the same when you relax the hand, letting the load push against the solid bone. The pushing problem is not uncommon. 3/4 to a full turn down from even on the top limb takes the push out of mine. If you experiment with it, you can cut out some or all of it. No reasonable coach would probably ever recommend this, but I actually like to have a little bit of POI change for those shots when the dot sits just a little low. I can add a little palm pressure and raise the POI 1/2". It just takes some adjusting to keep it from moving too much.


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## montigre

redman said:


> Sugru to change grip angle. If any one would like to try a sugru grip I have few packs you could try .I did not like it


I think its use may be bow geometry dependent as I did not like it on my Alpha Elite, but it was a good learning experience and easy enough to remove.


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## ThunderEagle

I knew about GRIV's sugru grip. What I'm not sure about, is if it is something I should pursue doing at this point. I'm trying to gather information on this topic from archers who have gone through the process before.


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## ThunderEagle

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I say completely relax the bow hand when you put it on the bow and leave it completely relaxed throughout the entire shot, loop height will also play a factor similar to tiller tuning in how the grip naturally rests in your completely relaxed dead bow hand....just my opinion.


Well, naturally I believe I end up with a high wrist (I hope I'm using this terms correctly) and less contact with my bow hand and riser, creating a pivot point, and resulting in, inconsistencies. I'm trying to remove this aspect of my shot, but at times I can go a bit too far the other way. I'm looking for a more easily repeatable grip, as well as a more consistent shot.

When I'm talking about grip here, I'm really not talking about side to side torque, I'm talking about pressure from my palm to the back of the riser.


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## SonnyThomas

Hand placement to the riser grip...Low grip; The hand is all the way up and riser contact runs from the web between the thumb and index finger straight off the palm of the hand. So much can lead to edging up to a med or high grip. Practice the low grip. As you practice feel for what may be off. I thinking draw length, too much draw weight, forcing when the bow arm should just be strong, bow shoulder not down in the socket....


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## cbrunson

ThunderEagle said:


> Well, naturally I believe I end up with a high wrist (I hope I'm using this terms correctly) and less contact with my bow hand and riser, creating a pivot point, and resulting in, inconsistencies. I'm trying to remove this aspect of my shot, but at times I can go a bit too far the other way. I'm looking for a more easily repeatable grip, as well as a more consistent shot.
> 
> When I'm talking about grip here, I'm really not talking about side to side torque, I'm talking about pressure from my palm to the back of the riser.


That is what he was talking about. You can tune out or reduce the effects of palm pressure with tiller adjustment.


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## Padgett

There is a lesson for you to learn right in front of you but you have to allow yourself to see it.

The lesson is that your style of grip will change the point of impact so choose one of the three and then sight your bow in for that particular grip, then you must make sure that you are always using that grip or the arrow poi will change every time you do one of the other two. 

Now the other lesson to be learned is more of a three part lesson because each one of the three grip choices have a personality of their own and they have tendencies. The tendencies differ from shooter to shooter and you have to choose which grip has the tendencies that you feel the most comfortable with and then and only then can you work on limiting the effect of them and make your grip choice a good one.


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## Padgett

Most guys I think end up choosing a neutral grip which to me is a mistake because it is to easy to go from this mid or neutral grip to high or low because the neutral grip is between them and this to me causes the biggest differences in poi for some people. Me personally with the grip designs of modern compounds you really need to be choosing the low grip, I have studied my grip choices for a while now and the low grip just makes more sense than the high one, plus once you accept a low grip then you will 100% know if you screw up and accidentally do a high grip because they are no way freaking the same feeling but when you are using a neutral grip it is way to easy to slip either to the low or high one and totally screw up your poi.


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## ThunderEagle

cbrunson said:


> That is what he was talking about. You can tune out or reduce the effects of palm pressure with tiller adjustment.


I was making that clarification as one of the links provided was a thread talking about thumb side pressure, etc.




Padgett said:


> There is a lesson for you to learn right in front of you but you have to allow yourself to see it.
> 
> The lesson is that your style of grip will change the point of impact so choose one of the three and then sight your bow in for that particular grip, then you must make sure that you are always using that grip or the arrow poi will change every time you do one of the other two.
> 
> Now the other lesson to be learned is more of a three part lesson because each one of the three grip choices have a personality of their own and they have tendencies. The tendencies differ from shooter to shooter and you have to choose which grip has the tendencies that you feel the most comfortable with and then and only then can you work on limiting the effect of them and make your grip choice a good one.


I understand that Padgett. What I'm unsure of, is how to go about picking the grip and then making it as repeatable as possible. I think the low grip is what I truly want, it is just the process making sure it is as easily repeatable as possible. Maybe I'll get in touch with the coach I talked to a few weeks ago and see if we can specifically address this issue. At the time he didn't really see anything specific to work on in terms of major form flaws or anything.

I do feel like my draw length is slightly short at this point, as I have a bigger bend in my bow elbow than what I would like, and I feel myself moving my arm back to get to the anchor that I want to have. I suppose I could add a little bit longer of D-loop. I'm just a little hesitant to make any bow changes right now, as I am shooting the best I ever have.


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## Padgett

I wouldn't change the d-loop either, to me it is so stinking easy to put the bow in a press and take out 3 or 4 twists of the bow string and lengthen the draw length maybe a 1/8 inch and just shoot a few shots and then you can just put the same twists back into the string and the bow is right back exactly where you had it 3 minutes before. This way nothing has changed and you can at least feel the difference that a extra 1/8 inch of draw length feels. I hate doing a new d-loop because you then have to live with it and sight back in your bow and it sucks when you like other one better.


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## Padgett

Grip and Front Arm:
This is the basic grip that I see on all pro shooters and the grip that I feel is the best way to attach yourself to the bow:

To begin we are going to discuss what touches the bow and what does not touch the bow, your thumb muscle and your thumb and your index finger are the only three things allowed to touch the bow. You are going to put your knuckles at a 45 degree angle and this will move the palm and love lines out of the way. Then you index finger should be touching the front of the riser, the other three fingers are curled up and very lightly touching the palm. They should not be stretched out or stiff and by curling them and lightly touching the palm they will be nice and relaxed.

This is the neutral front arm position that will really give you a solid feel when at anchor and allow you to produce some wicked good float:

Reach out in front of yourself and put your knuckles at a 45 degree angle, now try and point your elbow down towards the floor and keep the knuckles at the 45 degree angle. This will make your arm very stiff and it will move your arm into the strings path which are two bad things, now still keeping the knuckles at the 45 degree angle turn your elbow straight out to the side and again it will feel horrible but now the arm will look really bent and your shoulder will try to stick out to the side and the deltoids try and raise up. Again all of this is really bad. Now put your elbow in between at the 45 degree angle position and again put the knuckles at the 45 degree position and now things should feel nice, this combination of the knuckles and elbow does many things. It allows your arm to be straight but moves your arm away from the string, it keeps your arm straight but gives the perception of it being bent, it lets your arm stay nice and low.

Now that we have your arm and grip at the right angles you are ready to feel the something new, we are going to treat our front arm as a broom stick and when we come to full draw we are going to allow the broom stick to push back into the front shoulder socket. This is a feeling that most people don’t ever feel because they are pushing forward into the grip lengthening their system which our human body has the ability to do and this is bad, you want the bow to push your arm back into the shoulder socket and this is where the really strong float starts happening.

The last thing I want to cover in this article is the pressure you feel in your grip, put your arm out in front of you and get the hand cocked back and in the grip position and then follow your arm bone forward into your hand and look at where it hits the thumb muscle. It comes through on the lower half of the thumb muscle towards the bottom about a half inch up nowhere near the thumb joints. This is where you want most of the bow pressure to be, you do not want to have the pressure going into the top half of the thumb muscle. where the skin goes across to the index knuckle. In the past I was warned about healing the bow and I have always stayed away from pressure on the lower half of my grip but that was back when people had their entire palm on the bow, now that we have only our thumb muscle on the bow it is a non issue. I personally like to have a relatively neutral amount of pressure on my entire thumb muscle with a little extra on the lower half, as long as I am not pushing the top half into the grip of the bow I am happy.
Socket Man


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## ThunderEagle

In terms of what is touching the bow, I'm mostly doing that. When I stated palm, what I was talking about is the thumb muscle as you describe it. I felt I was heeling the bow a bit last night at times, but again, this might be a dl tweak. I really don't have any opportunity to make any changes before the state indoor this weekend, so I may need to live with this for a bit.


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## Padgett

I have been shooting for a long time and the term healing is something that is lingering from the 1970's back when every bow came as a high wrist grip designed bow. Right now I am not even sure it is physically possible to heal a modern compound bow especially target bows with a bare metal riser grip such as my specialist of the hoyts.

The key is to simply look at the dead space above your arm bones when you are at full draw, your entire hand is above the wrist joint and there is nothing behind it so if you are using a neutral grip or a high grip you must be using a lot of muscle tension in the forearm to keep the bow from pushing into the lower part of the hand in front of the arm bones and this muscle tension is a bad thing. Once you allow the bow to sit on the lower part of the thumb pad that is right in front of the arm bone coming through then your forearm muscles can relax and stop causing issues.


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## elkbow69

within the last 12 mo I have changed from a medium grip to a low grip and have found it much more repeatable. Its lets my hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder fall into a natural position which is most stable and comfortable for me. Less tension. 
In doing this I also found that my sight picture calmed down some and floats like a slow, even hover. Kinda like comparing a humming bird and a bumble bee! 
Aiming is so much more natural, almost a zen like "duhhhhhhhh aimmmmm" relaxed feeling. My group size at all ranges tightened and my x count even went up a few.


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## cbrunson

You can definately heel it with a Hoyt Padgett. Even with your hand at 45 deg. I'm sure every other bow as well.

I've been playing with this quite a bit the last few days. With even tiller on my pro comp, I can push it about an inch high. with a full turn in on the top, it doesn't move. Try it, you'll see.


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## Mahly

I had been working on this a while back, and one thing I wanted to try was going back to a finger sling. This (as I remember) did a lot to help keep my fingers out of the way when using a lower grip. We'll see.


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## jelmore

Padgett, in my previous post in this thread I noted that I have been experimenting with the "tenseness" I'm feeling in my tricep at full draw. This morning I was shooting and notice that a tense tricep does cause a little more torque but seems to give me a much stronger aim and the torque can be eliminated pre-draw as I'm setting my grip. Any insight into what you feel as far as the muscles in the bow arm?


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## snowshovler

Why do many of us feel the need to adapt ourselves to the bow? I didn't like the low wrist of my Elite E 35 so I built up the grip with wedges of wood, tape, cardboard to keep the contact I like. It took a while to build up the grip, shoot, get comfortable with the change, etc., but soon I found what felt good and steadied the hold. I kept building it up to the point the shot quality fell off. I built up a grip from carbon fiber to match the wooded/cardboard/tape. The new grip has very square edges which helps me put the bow into the same place each time. 

Now my grip is zero tension and requires almost no effort to be repeatable. Much more fun to shoot. If you don't like the grip alter it to what you want. If you have to build something with sugru or whatever just do it.


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## SonnyThomas

I think everyone is onboard... You can get set in your ways and you have to break yourself. Heal the bow so you know you're healing the bow and relax enough so that little something off shows up. Stance might fix it. Draw length might fix it. Tiller might fix it. 

Not the easiest thing to do, take a picture of your own hand, but maybe a good enough example...maybe...2000 Hoyt UltraTec. When I got my ProElite there was a noticeable difference, riser grip more up and down. Going to my Pearson MarXman, another difference.


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## Padgett

Snowshovler, I have shot the same stinking bowtech specialist for since late 2010 I believe so I really haven't had to switch and my new cpxl is relatively close to the sme grip with just some extra little wavers in the side plates but the angle seems the same. Do I think I could adapt to a different handle, yes. But I am not sure because I haven't had to.

Jelmore, In my front arm even though it looks like I have some slight bend in my arm it is bone to bone and I have no extra muscle contraction going on in my bicep or tricep or forearm or deltoids. I always look at muscle tension as a bad thing and I try to stay away from it except for my back tension because it is what is holding things at full draw. my front arm and front shoulder are in the correct positions so that there is bone to bone alignment which allows my muscle groups to be in a nice and relaxed state.


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## Mahly

So I put together my Vectrix XL, and it's amazing to see the difference in grips between it and my Moxie.
I think the Moxie tries to get your hand up as high on the shelf is possible, generally a good thing, but in my case, due to hand size, it's to extreme, and I need to rotate more to a medium grip just to get clearance.
On my Hoyt, the grip seems designed not so much as to get the hand as high as possible, and on that bow, you can see a low wrist has plenty of clearance.
Will be interesting to see what my Concorde will be like.

Moxie low wrist 




Vectrix XL low wrist








Moxie grip


Vectrix XL grip


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## EPLC

Is it me or does your grip look a tad tense? You might want to try and relax the fingers a bit.


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## Mahly

No, just you LOL!
Fingers are relaxed, thumb looks tense because it kind of wraps around. I don't put any force on the fingers or thumb.


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## EPLC

Mahly said:


> No, just you LOL!
> Fingers are relaxed, thumb looks tense because it kind of wraps around. I don't put any force on the fingers or thumb.


Sometimes looks are deceiving. Unusual to see fingers wrapped around that close... it gives the visual impression of being tense, even though they may not be at all.


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## SonnyThomas

Mahly, overly observantly me would have questions.


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## kballer1

Tagged.


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## ctownshooter

tagged


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## Mahly

So as an update, I recently picked up an Alpine Concorde with a Shrewd grip.
First thing I noticed, the grip from front to back is much longer. 
Also, the shelf seems to sit out farther from the bow, as well as sitting a bit more below the Berger holes.

Compare to the earlier posted pics of my other bows.






THIS grip works with larger hands.

Again, comparing to the earlier pics, there it a lot more room, and the fingers don't wrap around so much. If nothing else it sure LOOKS more relaxed,
Being that they are nice and out of the way, even with a low grip, I don't have to alter the grip in any way to fit my hands.







I lucked out on this one! But I don't think I'll be buying anymore bow sight unseen... Or at least without some serious analysis of grip shape first.


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## JDZ

Good thread.

I'm working on making my grip consistently correct. On these modern bows where the grip is a constant thickness and angle, I sometimes have trouble getting the height of my hand in the same position relative to the bow. Like I could move my hand up or down a half inch and it would feel the same. Any tips there?

Another thing I'm working on is bracing my arm and hand and just drawing against it, so as to keep a consistent, torque-free grip. I'm finding my arm position has to change slightly while drawing past peak weight to hold the bow. Then, at full draw, I can settle back into what I believe is proper form. I don't think i end up torquing the bow, but it just doesn't seem right. Thoughts?


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## Mahly

If you think you can move up 1/2", do it and see how it works. In general, the higher you can get the better. 
As mentioned in my earlier posts, hand size will determine how high you can go.


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## Sasquech

Mahly that grip really looks to be a good fit


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## Flashclimber

Tag


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## thunderbolt




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## bigHUN

snowshovler said:


> ...Why do many of us feel the need to adapt ourselves to the bow? ...


This !!! is between very first couple requirements on my long list when I buy a new bow.

I see you already have a bow and you are not entirely sure what or how to do it right with that grip?

You can start with a little test:

Grease your palm man, grease it well with vaseline, grab the bow as much neutral you know about it and draw it as per your best form. Your form could be anything whatever you want or whatever you know about it, 

Your palm will slide you into a position where your body = your "form" and the bow interacts with each other the best. In THAT exact position you can try now different pressure points.

Do you like it there? Then remember that position. I would even recommend training for that neutral grip for several days or weeks as much needed. I was shooting one fulll winter season all of my tournaments with vaseline on my palm and in my casse I have learned the issue I had before.

Don't like it there? Well you have two options, one to replace that rig, or you keep speculating how to modify that grip to your form

my 2c


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## SonnyThomas

bigHUN said:


> This !!! is between very first couple requirements on my long list when I buy a new bow.
> 
> I see you already have a bow and you are not entirely sure what or how to do it right with that grip?
> 
> You can start with a little test:
> 
> Grease your palm man, grease it well with vaseline, grab the bow as much neutral you know about it and draw it as per your best form. Your form could be anything whatever you want or whatever you know about it,
> 
> Your palm will slide you into a position where your body = your "form" and the bow interacts with each other the best. In THAT exact position you can try now different pressure points.
> 
> Do you like it there? Then remember that position. I would even recommend training for that neutral grip for several days or weeks as much needed. I was shooting one fulll winter season all of my tournaments with vaseline on my palm and in my casse I have learned the issue I had before.
> 
> Don't like it there? Well you have two options, one to replace that rig, or you keep speculating how to modify that grip to your form
> 
> my 2c


Dang, bigHun, you'll get "crucified" for noting grease, cold cream or vasoline. Yep, I learned it that way (a coach as is; "draw or else."). field14 learned it from another person (a lady I believe) years before me. And now you. When? Coach or "friend?"
Learned, I don't need the slippery stuff. I know what draw weight, draw length and ata range I want and I can't remember one time trying a bow before I bought it. I've had bows shipped to me sight unseen. My 2012 Pearson MarXman, never even saw one, not along shoot one. I wanted a Pearson Advantage III and Jeremy Blackmon calls me at home. He's good talker and talked me into the MarXman. I've got a bow out in the garage that has grip like a 2X4, but dang near what I call Field worthy. I ought to take a picture. The grip is almost square across the back.

I can asked, but I doubt if someone in here has. Anyone shoot a Athens Accomplice when Athens first fired up? It had a grip like a 2X4 also. RR showed up at the archery shop with one and let me shoot it. 2X4 grip and I still darn near Robin Hooded a arrow the first time I shot it. Rodney442, Athen's Rep? I wrote something of Accomplice on AT and he asked what I meant by 2X4 grip. Well, when the corners (yeah, corners) of the grip bite into your hand it's a 2X4. The next year Athens changed their grip design. Went to the Vortex Open and there were those sweet grip Athens. The Excell, I wanted it to follow me home so bad.
The Vortex Open, a great play day is what it is and thousands of dollars of give away optics.....

Hundred million pictures on the internet, archery sites and this grip stuff keeps coming up.


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## bigHUN

SonnyThomas said:


> ...hundred million pictures on the internet, archery sites and this grip stuff keeps coming up.


:tongue:

this why we keep coming back :set1_rolf2:

Guess what? Yesterday, or maybe a day before, I got to work in 6.45, let see first what is happening here @ IA...
nothing....it was soo quiet I started worrying,
:hairy:
then I saw couple guys started plunking buttons about 9-9.15 :set1_applaud:


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## SonnyThomas

bigHUN said:


> :tongue:
> 
> this why we keep coming back :set1_rolf2:
> 
> Guess what? Yesterday, or maybe a day before, I got to work in 6.45, let see first what is happening here @ IA...
> nothing....it was soo quiet I started worrying,
> :hairy:
> then I saw couple guys started plunking buttons about 9-9.15 :set1_applaud:


Maybe people have to get to work so they can get on the computer... Me, retired with a bit of 2nd shift syndrome still. Yep, home after midnight for 30+ years, sleep to whenever, sometimes until time to go back to work (12 to 14 hours shifts). 9 am works for me.


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