# Canadian National Team World Cup in China



## CLASSICHUNTER

is there a link please....


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## claymx

http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/Results/Results/2012/12_AWC_Shanghai/ECOMPC.pdf

this is the participants by country as of April 9th>


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## DXTCLUE

The FCA dosent fund it.
Air fare to China- Big bucks
Hotel- $235.00 us. per night for a double room, for 7 days
Food- $-?
Entry Fee -$165.00 us.


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## claymx

FCA doesnt fund World Events? So our archers have to pay to go? Do they have to pay to goto the Olympics too? Good grief.....


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## DXTCLUE

As far as I know,and I could be wrong, the FCA do not fund compound archers they will fund the recurve archers for the olympics only.


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## Stash

claymx said:


> FCA doesnt fund World Events? So our archers have to pay to go? Do they have to pay to goto the Olympics too? Good grief.....


Where have you been the last 30 years? 

Olympics, Pan Ams and stuff like that is funded, but the other stuff, the archers pay a big percentage. Your tax dollars being used wisely...


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## ontario3-d'r

Hey Everyone. The Canadian government only sponsors OLYMPIC sports. Any funding the FCA revceives from the government MUST be used on the recurve archers. The compound bows are not at the olymics, and never will be. If the FCA uses funding for the compounds, and the government finds out, they could possibly loose future years funding. It is very unfortunate, considering that in the last 5 years, Canadian compound shooters have won 2 world Championships, 1 World Cup title, (countless silver and bronze World Cup medals), won the prestigious VEGAS shoot, and the current world record indoor shooter comes from Canada. The reason that some of our best compound shooters will never wear the Canadian uniform, is because we have to pay for it ourselves. i have been in the tournament game for 26 years now, and there is no doubt in my mind that Canadian can compete with ANY nations best. We have a number of FITA shooters that can break 1400, and an incredible number of talented 3D shooters. If we sent 10 archers to the IBO or ASA "World" Championships, Canadians would win medals!! Just my 2 cents.


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## wanemann

Excuse my ignorance but it is just Canada that does this? Do countries like australia, germany, france, england, etc. pay at least airfare and accomodations?


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## x-hunta

read number 9 here http://www.archerycanada.ca/en/cana...ation-for-2012-world-archery-world-cup-events


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## claymx

Just started in this sport...but I thought I heard something about Compounds being in the next Olympics in 2016....
I would be betting other countries have National teams that they pay to go. Like seriously can you see archers in the USA line up forking over thousands to go shoot a tourney in China? That is a pretty big name line up. Either you have some major cash behind you or your are getting sponsored....


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## x-hunta

If compounds make it into the olympics it won`t be for a very very very long time. Their best chance would be for archery to resign as a sport and reapply with compounds in tow, which it wouldn`t be very likely they would get back in.


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## XXX_Shooter

EVERYTHING comes out of COMPOUND shooters pockets including mine!!!! CANADA i believe is the ONLY country that doesn't SUPPORT COMPOUND shooters but i could be wrong.. Its pretty bad when they support the shooters who are doing very little or anything at all.... We only have 2 good recurve shooters. The recurves get funding like no tomorrow and we COMPOUND shooters or TRAINING WHEEL shooters have to fork it out and hopefully come out with a win or atleast on the podium to maybe break par. So you wont be seeing MANY top COMPOUND shooter representing CANADA at a lot of the WORLD CUPS. And the fact that we have to buy our own UNIFORMS is pretty bad... Shows whos NOT BEHIND us when we have to wear CANADA and FCA on the shirts. In not to sure if recurve gets there Uniforms but im pretty sure they get a DISCOUNT... LOL... This is how i see it. :angry:


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## DXTCLUE

The FCA wont fund compound shooters BUT they have no problem posting the pics or names of the compound winners on their website to make them self look like they do.


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## Lgard723

Canadian Sport should be funded by private enterprise namely the equipment manufacturers who profit from world class athletes.


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## DXTCLUE

Lgard723 said:


> Canadian Sport should be funded by private enterprise namely the equipment manufacturers who profit from world class athletes.


Some times they do, but 95% of the manufactures are from the USA. The FCA should also cough up.


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## DXTCLUE

At the recent FCA indoor championships There was 237 recurve shooters all ages. There was 50 bare bow shooters all ages. There was 414 compound shooters all ages. More entry fees were collected from compond shooters.


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## Lgard723

DXTCLUE said:


> Some times they do, but 95% of the manufactures are from the USA. The FCA should also cough up.


America's immigration system opens its arms for world class athletes of any kind, Corporate America is more than willing to exploit their talents once they immigrate.


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## DXTCLUE

Lgard723 said:


> America's immigration system opens its arms for world class athletes of any kind, Corporate America is more than willing to exploit their talents once they immigrate.


Were talking archery here. Name one person on the USA archery team that wasnt born in the USA.


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## crkelly

There is an intire industry built around the compound shooter. It's a shame that events held by compounds that bring in the most revenue are the least acknowledged. Though I'm sure that will change down the road,but unlikely initiated by the governing bodies. Unless they see a loss in finances or credibility. On the bright side we have some very talented COMPOUND shooters in our country to be proud of. Just my two cents again.


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## Lgard723

DXTCLUE said:


> Were talking archery here. Name one person on the USA archery team that wasnt born in the USA.


If Dietmar was not able to find the requisite Corporate funding to pursue archery as a career choice. When he was setting world records he could have applied for US citizenship and joined the USA archery team.


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## SpiritArcher

I happen to disagree with the statement that compound archers will never be at the Olympics. In 2010, compound archers competed at the Commonwealth Games for the first time. The distances and target faces have been changes for the compound events to make them different enough from the recurve event to justify an application. As a competitve shooter who shoots compound, modern recurve, traditional recurve and longbow, and practices Kyudo I must say that it requires just as much effort physically and mentally to shoot a full outdoor FITA as it does to shoot the same round with a modern recurve. Personnally, I find the compound event more exiting because of the precision and accuracy involved. In compound events, the individual matches in the medal rounds are much closer than they are in the recurve events. 

As far as funding is concerned? In a country where hockey is religion and shooting sports are frowned upon by bleeding heart, uneducated liberals archery is just not going to get a lot of funding. We have a lot high performance archers who could benefit from an athelete development / training programs and funding just as their U.S. counterparts but it will never happen as long as Canadians are fixated on chasing a rubber disc on a sheet of ice and are afraid of anything and anyone who happens to shoot a projectile. Case-in-point: just look how long it took for the show "Top Shot" to be aired on a Canadian television network. I first watched Top Shot on the History Channel while on vacation in California nearly 3 years ago. The OLN Channel has just finnished airing Season 1 and started to air Season 2 last week. I believe the show is in its 4th year of production.


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## Stash

DXTCLUE said:


> Were talking archery here. Name one person on the USA archery team that wasnt born in the USA.


Khatuna Lorig


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## Stash

SpiritArcher said:


> I happen to disagree with the statement that compound archers will never be at the Olympics. In 2010, compound archers competed at the Commonwealth Games for the first time.


Well, you can disagree, but you'll still be wrong. 

Sports are not be added to the Olympic schedule unless they can draw viewers, sponsorship and MONEY!!! Adding another archery event isn't going to happen.

Compounds were in the Commonwealth Games for the first time, but it was only the second time for archery, period. And the first time in 1982, compounds weren't a part of FITA.


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## Stash

Lgard723 said:


> If Dietmar was not able to find the requisite Corporate funding to pursue archery as a career choice. When he was setting world records he could have applied for US citizenship and joined the USA archery team.


They wouldn't take him. The Americans have *SOME* standards...    (It's a joke!!!)


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## CLASSICHUNTER

look at sno boarding isn`t it a olympic sport now... oh ya it generates billions in revenue.. ..I was going to go to italy for the worlds 3-d.. to represent Canada..cost to me about 5k.. for 10 days.. fca paid entry only about 100 dollars .... then I had to buy uniform for 375 dollars out of my pocket .. I didn`t go ... At these events there should be a independent entry as well with no country represented..


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## Xs24-7

With all the experts here, its good to know that when the Archery Canada Elections are held this year, there will be a lot of qualified people putting their hands up.
Fact: The Recurve archers who recieve support, recieve that support via the Canadian OLYMPIC Committee. Until compounds are in the Olympics, they get $0 from the COC. 
Fact: The costs to send a full team to a World Cup event exceeds $50,000. The cost of sending 2 teams/year exceeds the total $$ contributed from all memberships for Archery Canada. If Archery Canada did make the choice to do so, it would have to neglect numerous programs that it must maintain in order to continue to receive the $$ it recieved from Sport Canada. $$ from sport Canada has specific expectations and responcibilities tied to it. If they are not met, it goes away. Compound teams to World Cups dont meet this. Hense limited Sport Canada funding for compound archery.
Fact: Archery Canada has provided significant funding to many archers over the last several years. Archers going to the Ogden World Cup in 2010 recieved a signidficant amount of support. As well, entry fees are paid for all compound archers at World Championships. The $$$ allocated out of General revenue(re:membership $$) is comparable for compound vs. recurve, the difference is in COC+Sport Canada $$.
Fact: There are a few compound archers in Canada who would be pretty follish to trade their compound paychecks in for COC $$.....recurves can only dream of that kind of sponsor support...so the grass isnt always greener on the recurve side.
Fact: Archery Canada would love for all those who believe so strongly that compounds need more support from Archery Canada to make a tax deductable contribution towards it. With everyone on this thread stepping up, it will be no time until they can send a full team to every event...


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## bigdawg

Xs24-7 said:


> With all the experts here, its good to know that when the Archery Canada Elections are held this year, there will be a lot of qualified people putting their hands up.
> Fact: The Recurve archers who recieve support, recieve that support via the Canadian OLYMPIC Committee. Until compounds are in the Olympics, they get $0 from the COC.
> Fact: The costs to send a full team to a World Cup event exceeds $50,000. The cost of sending 2 teams/year exceeds the total $$ contributed from all memberships for Archery Canada. If Archery Canada did make the choice to do so, it would have to neglect numerous programs that it must maintain in order to continue to receive the $$ it recieved from Sport Canada. $$ from sport Canada has specific expectations and responcibilities tied to it. If they are not met, it goes away. Compound teams to World Cups dont meet this. Hense limited Sport Canada funding for compound archery.
> Fact: Archery Canada has provided significant funding to many archers over the last several years. Archers going to the Ogden World Cup in 2010 recieved a signidficant amount of support. As well, entry fees are paid for all compound archers at World Championships. The $$$ allocated out of General revenue(re:membership $$) is comparable for compound vs. recurve, the difference is in COC+Sport Canada $$.
> Fact: There are a few compound archers in Canada who would be pretty follish to trade their compound paychecks in for COC $$.....recurves can only dream of that kind of sponsor support...so the grass isnt always greener on the recurve side.
> Fact: Archery Canada would love for all those who believe so strongly that compounds need more support from Archery Canada to make a tax deductable contribution towards it. With everyone on this thread stepping up, it will be no time until they can send a full team to every event...


My brother recieves COC $$, Own The Podium $$ and Corporate Sponsorship. When it comes to travel, etc FCA has very little to do with his funds. Not that they don't have anything to do with it but it is a tiny piece of the pie. Very similar to compound archery. I was once one of the top compound shooters, not for very long  but was there so I feel I can speak to this. It sucks but GET OVER IT! In the politest way possible. Like Ed said, recurve doesn't have it any easier.


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## bigdawg

5th and 6th for the two Olympic Recurve shooters at the world cup!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

when you say it cost 50 k to send a full team to an event.... how many people sent.... how many shooters versus extra people like coaches etc please breakdown numbers ... Are there financial statements available to the public to review ????


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## Stash

Archery Canada's financial statements are audited annually and are available online on their website. As for the fine details, no organization will provide to the general public a complete set of revenues and expenditures broken down into how much they spent for staples and paperclips, but if you go to the trouble of asking the right people, and have a good reason, you can get the information.

But figure on a trip to Shanghai - airfare, hotel for a week, local transportation, food, uniforms, entry fees, insurance, easily $4K per person, probably more. 3 each men/women/recurve/compound, maybe 2 support staff, 14 people times $4K, there's your $50K. Times 3 or 4 World Cups, then there's the World Indoor/Field/Outdoor champs. Toss in some 3D. That's half a $million just to send people around the world to do something that 99% of the rest of the country doesn't give a damn about. Ain't gonna happen.

Federal government funding is only available for sports events that a large percentage of the taxpayers have an interest in, and that means Olympics and what leads up to them. Therefore only recurve, regardless of the success of compound shooters.

Just because someone is good at something doesn't automatically entitle them to travel at taxpayer expense. If you want to travel and compete at taxpayer expense, get good at something the taxpayers don't mind paying for.


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## rossi9s

Been there ...done that...this is getting old


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## wanemann

we should turn this conversation into ideas on how to improve on funding for world class archers of any class, I don't know much but from the sounds of it, it looks like all disciplines are lacking. I don't know who at what level would initiate this, who to approach, or what angles to pitch it at, any ideas? but with media and all the archery movies these days archery should have great momentum now would be the time to push for things. As a community do we deal with this? i am asking because i really don't know, surely if a club has member that qualifies for world event and funding is not available surely something like 1 free membership is raffled, a fun tournament held, or local store donates something for raffle, our world class shooters don't buy their own Tshirts right? or am i out to lunch with coarse of thinking.


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## Stash

No, you're not out to lunch. This is a good time to be looking for corporate sponsorship. However...

Aside from the fact that archery is simply nothing more than a novelty to the vast majority of the population, another major obstacle is, and always has been, WHO is going to do the job? I'm not up on the current FCA (OK, Archery Canada ) administration, but with one paid executive and (I assume) a part-time admin assistant to run the whole thing, plus a bunch of volunteers, we just don't have anyone who is into the whole corporate sponsorship gathering thing. 

We have, according to the website, ONE corporate sponsor, Toxofil, and they aren't going to be making enough off shirts to be willing and able pour $hundreds of thousands into the FCA's coffers. 

A few raffles and novelty tournaments aren't going to make any significant contribution.

Yeah, I'm being negative. But I've heard this all over and over for almost 40 years, and as far as I'm concerned, it's just not doable. We've had over the years a "VP-Marketing" whose job it has been to obtain corporate sponsorship, but I haven't seen much in the way of results. Archery outside the Olympic discipline is just another fun activity, and the players are on their own. Each compound archer with ambitions is going to have to find his or her own funding.


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## DXTCLUE

Maybe Archery Canada should start buying lottery tickets. Or run their own lottery to get more funds. :thumbs_up


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## wanemann

Stash said:


> No, you're not out to lunch. This is a good time to be looking for corporate sponsorship. However...
> 
> Aside from the fact that archery is simply nothing more than a novelty to the vast majority of the population, another major obstacle is, and always has been, WHO is going to do the job? I'm not up on the current FCA (OK, Archery Canada ) administration, but with one paid executive and (I assume) a part-time admin assistant to run the whole thing, plus a bunch of volunteers, we just don't have anyone who is into the whole corporate sponsorship gathering thing.
> 
> We have, according to the website, ONE corporate sponsor, Toxofil, and they aren't going to be making enough off shirts to be willing and able pour $hundreds of thousands into the FCA's coffers.
> 
> A few raffles and novelty tournaments aren't going to make any significant contribution.
> 
> Yeah, I'm being negative. But I've heard this all over and over for almost 40 years, and as far as I'm concerned, it's just not doable. We've had over the years a "VP-Marketing" whose job it has been to obtain corporate sponsorship, but I haven't seen much in the way of results. Archery outside the Olympic discipline is just another fun activity, and the players are on their own. Each compound archer with ambitions is going to have to find his or her own funding.


stash,
i choose to be positive about this, i think classichunter was right on the money with snowboarding as an example, at one time we were not allowed on the same hill as the elite snoby skiers who said not doable, will never take, we had to have our own little section of the hill, not so anymore, it got marketed well to the right audience and took off in a big way this winter with my sons class had a total of 4 skiers out of 15 (getting archery back in our schools would be huge in aiding things)


And right you are about raffles and novelty shoots not making any significant contributions but how about if every canadian club is mandated to having one shoot a year with proceeds going to aid qualifying world class archers now we may be at least be able to buy the the t-shirts (there one idea good or bad its a start)



the who will do the job, this will come if we the archery community that set them up to succeed, with ideas on who to approach/pitch/direction/sponsorship/contacts etc.



and yes outside the olympic discipline its is just another fun activity but so what, i say you not cool unless you shoot a bow, and look me i am young, good-looking, fit, and make it look really cool and sexy, there is the marketing pitch, that how snowboarding did it. best of all movies are doing this for us without having invested a penny. great, so now its cool and kids wanna do it, we need to as a community again work on ideas on how to promote local clubs in a cool way for the kids(lets say 12yrs +) insure we have the safety bit locked down for the parents, and there you have it exercise, fresh air, discipline, ethics, goals, fun, fairly inexpensive,(so you and you friends wanna go to the range? no video games and mall, as a parent i am on board with this) fact is when the youth lock on to something money follows and sponsors follow.



for me the problem i have noticed is, was shown right here, separation of classes, who spends more, who is entitled more so ,and status quo, that how its been and how it is, your are on your own. growth and change will not happen with these current circumstances. just sayin. sorry to ramble


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## Stash

wanemann said:


> stash,
> i choose to be positive about this,


Good luck. It would be great if someone would step up to the plate and get things going.

Send your ideas to the people currently in charge:

V/P Administration & Marketing: Robert Tataryn [email protected]
Executive Director/Directeur Exécutif: Scott Ogilvie [email protected]
Administrative Assistant: Laura Kiraly [email protected]


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## wanemann

well.. do you think it would be a good idea to email a link to this post thread, asking for input, efforts currently underway to better promote all archery, plans for bettering future funding for world class shooters, that way we can be pointed to the right information its possible this is all in the works, and some one is on it. Having said that do you mean for me to step up and contact these people? i will and i would, however to be clear, this is my second year having an oaa membership, i am not a club president, club owner, or even a close to a world class shooter, on my best day i am average, i just love archery and wish to see it progress on all levels with more youth getting involved, this may have a better outcome with more weight behind it than i can provide. Anyone got some weight? if i am it, we are in trouble lol.


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## s2k

Ed and Blair, thanks for being so clear. It is refreshing.
And just for those wondering about team staff, I went to Italy last year as the third staff member. In addition to taking a week of my vacation, the total cost to me exceeded $2,000. Hey, I'm not complaining, this is something I choose to do.

Waynemann
I have been exactly where you are loving the sport and wondering why there was no money to do it. All I can say, is please don't email anyone this link. If they have the time, the interest, the idea or the inclination to do something, they are already doing it.

Instead, step up and find a way to contribute yourself. Once you've got the ball rolling and need some help then reach out. Ideas are cheap, action is where the value is.


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## wanemann

solid advice, thanks s2k, well said.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

s2k you say you where the 3rd staff member.. what does that mean and where some of your exspenses paid ... I thought there where only 5 shooters from canada at the 3-ds in Italy ...Just wondering if you meant the 3-ds .. if so and just asking not starting a p--ing match why so many staff for so small a group of shooters... please feel free to correct me.. I`m just wondering as have owned and run a few businesses and sometimes administration can be your biggest expense...


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## Stash

That would have been the World Target Championships in Italy last year. 12 shooters, 6 recurve, 6 compound.


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## s2k

Hey classic,
Ya, good question, I should have specified. It was world targets. Certainly I'm sure there could be some debate about the value of the third team staff member. I think the theory is good, the days are crazy long, with one equipment category in the early morning, and he other not off the field until almost 8. With men and women so far apart on the field you could probably make a case four for team staff. The top countries that we want to compete with some times have six to eight staff. 
It's a good debate for sure. I would do it again in a heart beat but, I'm sure with the long days on the range, and very little time for anything but work and recovery and a significant outlay of cash, I can see why it could be tough to find team staff willing to go.


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## ontario3-d'r

A few posts ago, someone asked about other countries, and their funding. I was over in Austria this past summer shooting at the World FITA 3-D Championships, and met some awesome people. I got to shoot with a couple of the Italian shooters, and discussed this very topic. Italy sent a full team, 24 shooters. The Italian archery teams budget, FOR THAT EVENT !!!, was $1,000,000. ($40,000 PER ARCHER) There uniforms, hotels, entry fee, food all covered. Also, each team member got the week off work before the event, to work with their personal coaches, in an area set up to mimic Austria!! It is frustrating that a pee-wee hockey team can go to Germany on our dime, for JUST the experience, and people that are actually representing the country and getting on the podium, get nothing. It makes me very angry that the Canadian Government can spend millions of dollars trying to find water on Mars, but can't send their team to the World Championships. Unfortunetaly, stash is right. It is never going to change. I spent $4500 representing Canada. That is more than I will spend my whole 2012 campain in Canada


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## ontario3-d'r

A couple of comments made a few post ago need to be disputed. 1) Archery Canada did NOT pay for the compound shooters entry fee to Austria. We paid that ourselves. and #2) what would the point be to make a donation to the Archery Canada teams. We might as well just pay for the event directly. We would give the money to Archery Canada, and they would "pay" for the team to go. What is the difference. The money would still come from the archers on the team. Archery Canada always has the option of what is done in Ontario. The OAA figures out what it will cost to run our programs, including travel teams, and submits a grant request to the Ontario Government. Archery Canada could do the same. Figure out what it would cost to shoot World Cup Events, and World 3D Events, and submit the paperwork. Yes it is alot of work, but I can guarentee that if Canada sent our best - medals would be won!! Until the events are funded, we will never see a truly strong team. Kevin T., Dietmar T., Christopher P., Andrew F., at the same event, could take on any nations best, including the USA. Same can be said for 3-D. Cody D., Blake K., Dave Mc., and myself, would do some damage at any world event. just my 2 cents.


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## DXTCLUE

Its pretty bad when Mexico has 1 archer short of a full team and Canada has 3 archers total. Whats wrong with that picture. :canada:


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## Xs24-7

So what is the answer. Archery Canada does apply for anything they can. But the FACT is, if it isn't Olympic, it isn't getting $$. It's that simple. 
The donation comment I made previously was because obviously some here think the teams new more $. They should start the ball rolling. 
It's humerous watching the banter on here, everyone throwing out these obvious suggestions. "Apply for a grant"....wow!!! No one ever considered that! Thanks for the great idea!
"Get a sponsor"....I can't believe we have ignored this for so long....I'll just call up Nike and get em to turn on their money machine and send us some. Problem solved...this has been productive!
Archery Canada volunteers are few and far between doing all try can for the sport. Are you? Archery Canada volunteers are involved, informed, and doing what they can to keep this sport going. You may not always like whys being done...but there's always room for someone else to step up and try their hand at it. I haven't always agreed with what's gone on...but instead of sitting on my PC waiting for someone else to change it for me, I stepped up and did my part...elections are in August, theres a dozen committee positions open...plenty of work to be done...but I expect that once again the same three people will be stuck with the work while the keyboard crew keeps whining in archerytalk....


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## DXTCLUE

I think the Canadian teams uniforms, are the made by a Canadian company and are they not a sponsor of Archery Canada ???


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## x-hunta

ontario3-d'r said:


> Yes it is alot of work, but I can guarentee that if Canada sent our best - medals would be won!! Until the events are funded, we will never see a truly strong team. Kevin T., Dietmar T., Christopher P., Andrew F., at the same event, could take on any nations best, including the USA. Same can be said for 3-D. Cody D., Blake K., Dave Mc., and myself, would do some damage at any world event. just my 2 cents.


Lets look at the last 2 years in Ogden, we have had 2 silver medals against the USA, and that was with 5 different archers over the 2 years, so it can be done. I think what really should be done is try to raise moree awareness of the success. Yes I know it is already being done but we need to push it more so. I am sure that if people knew that Canada won a World Championship and a bronze in the team this year there would be more awareness to let the government justify sending some money to Archery Canada. Maybe get some news stories on NATIONAL television more often. I mean we had Crispin in his interview about the olympics this year and I am pretty sure he has done that a couple of times for CBC. The only thing I have ever seen on CBC about compound archery was Kevin and Dietmars choice not to attend the Commonwealth games due to personal concerns. Yet I never saw any news about Chris winning the world Championship, their 3rd place in torino, Peter Garrets gold and Tim Watts silver at the 3d world championships, the junior men winning a world championship too, and thats only in ONE year. Sure these things may have been reported on but nothing more than locally. The general public doesn't know about these because there is not any distribution of the info. IMO that is a big factor in increasing archery Canadas funding.


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## wanemann

Xs24-7 said:


> So what is the answer. Archery Canada does apply for anything they can. But the FACT is, if it isn't Olympic, it isn't getting $$. It's that simple.
> The donation comment I made previously was because obviously some here think the teams new more $. They should start the ball rolling.
> It's humerous watching the banter on here, everyone throwing out these obvious suggestions. "Apply for a grant"....wow!!! No one ever considered that! Thanks for the great idea!
> "Get a sponsor"....I can't believe we have ignored this for so long....I'll just call up Nike and get em to turn on their money machine and send us some. Problem solved...this has been productive!
> Archery Canada volunteers are few and far between doing all try can for the sport. Are you? Archery Canada volunteers are involved, informed, and doing what they can to keep this sport going. You may not always like whys being done...but there's always room for someone else to step up and try their hand at it. I haven't always agreed with what's gone on...but instead of sitting on my PC waiting for someone else to change it for me, I stepped up and did my part...elections are in August, theres a dozen committee positions open...plenty of work to be done...but I expect that once again the same three people will be stuck with the work while the keyboard crew keeps whining in archerytalk....


ok ill say it...
wow, your biography actually says " I am Vice President Events and Services with the FCA." if this is so...well way to go, you have mocked us, pretty much called us stupid and a bunch of whiners 
I would think in your position it may have been better to state the up coming committee positions available, share the knowledge of the work load on the volunteers and ask for help
instead you have succeeded in showing us you have no diplomacy and fold when you feel you are being attacked. no one is attacking you.


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## claymx

Holy crap that question opened up a can of worms eh?


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## JDoupe

I have emailed TSN several times questioning why no archery coverage......even just who won and where. Never had a response. ...and yet they will air countless spelling bee's and poker.......


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## Xs24-7

I am no longer a member of the executive, so I'll have to change that.
Im not to worried about what people read into my post...if the shoe fits, wear it. I've been around long enough to have been through this before, and reading the same ill informed complaints, but year after year I see the same old volunteers put in hundreds of hours keeping things together without even a thanks. I see national team members who got a fully funded trip to the world cup in Ogden less than 2 years ago throwing an organization that has been there for them with all they can, throwing that same organization under the bus.
It's easy to sit on the bench, saying how things could be done. Some may take offense to me rebutting their comments, but I'm no so sure my comment are any more offensive to them, than their comments are to those who are busting their butts as volunteers for Archery Canada. I care way less about the feelings of the armchair quarterbacks on here than I do about those who are the lifeblood of the sport I love. 
So please, keep talking in circles, complaining about things you can't/won't understand. Please keep throwing those who do the work under the bus, as I am sure that will inspire them to continue to give.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

I`ve been around long enough to know that when an executive is sometimes put up to review it gets a little testy.. they feel they are under review... I also know that a good executive does not attack back..... Some of the questions here are straight forward business questions like mine why 3 support members .. I asked for ratio to shooters sent question not answered but a remark there should of been 4 ... and other country's had 6.. . etc etc etc other counties have the budget.. answer back it cost him 2k well it cost shooters 4-5 k.. that means I guess he had a 3-4 expense account... ....Guys if you want volunteers be open and if you did get 3k worth of expenses paid say so... honesty will get more volunteers and some of them might be able to trim or refine operation costs and expenses... A budget that shows admin costs travel costs and mileage and hotels for the year tell me more in 5 minuets ..with income statements .. than a bunch of gibber... be open to all and life will be better... hide something and you will have to take what comes at you... this statement is not directed at any one or group.. it is a generalization..I see volunteers are asked for.. its hard to volunteer when an organization is very defensive and vague.. People do not want to be associated with such.. IMHO oh and the word volunteer doesn`t cut it when trips to events are compensated .. the person who does the book work and never travels and never puts in for mileage or hotel is the true volunteer.. lets get it straight.. the rest is called PERKS to those who get it...


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## Reed

Xs24-7 said:


> I am no longer a member of the executive, so I'll have to change that.
> Im not to worried about what people read into my post...if the shoe fits, wear it. I've been around long enough to have been through this before, and reading the same ill informed complaints, but year after year I see the same old volunteers put in hundreds of hours keeping things together without even a thanks. I see national team members who got a fully funded trip to the world cup in Ogden less than 2 years ago throwing an organization that has been there for them with all they can, throwing that same organization under the bus.
> It's easy to sit on the bench, saying how things could be done. Some may take offense to me rebutting their comments, but I'm no so sure my comment are any more offensive to them, than their comments are to those who are busting their butts as volunteers for Archery Canada. I care way less about the feelings of the armchair quarterbacks on here than I do about those who are the lifeblood of the sport I love.
> So please, keep talking in circles, complaining about things you can't/won't understand. Please keep throwing those who do the work under the bus, as I am sure that will inspire them to continue to give.


come on Ed, you know you are a has been nobody that dosent know anything and aint never been anywhere:icon_1_lol:


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## Stash

Better a "has been" than a "never was" 

Folks, we're talking generalities here when it come to the cost of archery travel. Some airfares are higher than others. Some accommodations are more expensive than others. One trip might cost an average of $2k per person, another $6K. Some people might use their Airmiles. They also use up their vacation time, or take leave from their jobs _*without pay*_.

And traveling with a team as a support person isn't all fun and games. 

"PERKS"??? These people are the organizers, the gofers, the assistants, and work longer hours than the archers doing the shooting, without the fun of actually having a chance to compete. They rent the cars, check the team into the hotels, arrange meals and local transport, stay all day at the practice and competition ranges in case they're needed, get water and food for the shooters, spot and pull arrows, carry bags and equipment, take care of medical emergencies, etc...You obviously have no clue what's involved. It's not a vacation.

Again, if you want the details about the expenditures the FCA has made to send a team, ask the correct people in the correct manner. Getting snippy on an internet forum isn't the proper way to get that information, and you're sure as hell not going to get an official budget breakdown here...


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## CLASSICHUNTER

stash so your saying these people are baby sitters.. Please what do you think we are totally out to lunch.. stash I have to ask are you on the exec because you sound like it ... It seems that if some one has a very substantiated post you crap on them.. Don`t forget I run a tournament and do the foot work and make the 2k donation to the hospital.. Guess what my books balance.. As I said don`t attack people inform people and they will come forward... you just set the volunteer list to zero with your response... My opinion not any one else s unless they chime in.. I do know there is some organization needed by these people but truth is they are compensated by having their expenses paid for .... or Perks which you highlighted..and ya know nothing wrong in that as long as it is kept in check...


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## FiFi

This is why I shoot IFAA events, register and go play, no hoops to jump through. I have been asked many times to try out for National teams, this would entail me to travel to several tournaments to attain an average then take a week off work to attend and be told you have to pay all your costs and maybe you might recieve some compentaion later, sorry not for me. What I personal think is that the FCA needs to tell us what the potential cost would be well ahead of time and if it is funded or not. When they asked me to try out for the Madrid Worlds I spent nearly 2 weeks trying to find out what the real cost to me was, maybe this issue as been addressed I don't know, but I do know that it is a thankless job, been there done that too. What both Sean and I find most amusing is the people with lots of super great ideas for other people to do...to funny


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## CLASSICHUNTER

well said fifi .... but again maybe if exec posted what job description was and also what as I call them PERKS are .... then you might get more volunteers...coming on here and some saying ... and I say some saying.... volunteer...well for what.. haven`t seen any one post a true job description here or a place to find one.. also they could mention what you do get in return ... like membership .... travel so much per mile... hotels when going to meetings.... and air fare when meetings held far away... oh my god what a concept... you just might get enough so called volunteers you`d actually have to screen or have interviews.. Most people take these jobs on because they WANT TO because of their passion for the sport... just my thoughts out loud again...


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## Canuck

Xs24-7 said:


> With all the experts here, its good to know that when the Archery Canada Elections are held this year, there will be a lot of qualified people putting their hands up.
> Fact: The Recurve archers who recieve support, recieve that support via the Canadian OLYMPIC Committee. Until compounds are in the Olympics, they get $0 from the COC.
> Fact: The costs to send a full team to a World Cup event exceeds $50,000. The cost of sending 2 teams/year exceeds the total $$ contributed from all memberships for Archery Canada. If Archery Canada did make the choice to do so, it would have to neglect numerous programs that it must maintain in order to continue to receive the $$ it recieved from Sport Canada. $$ from sport Canada has specific expectations and responcibilities tied to it. If they are not met, it goes away. Compound teams to World Cups dont meet this. Hense limited Sport Canada funding for compound archery.
> Fact: Archery Canada has provided significant funding to many archers over the last several years. Archers going to the Ogden World Cup in 2010 recieved a signidficant amount of support. As well, entry fees are paid for all compound archers at World Championships. The $$$ allocated out of General revenue(re:membership $$) is comparable for compound vs. recurve, the difference is in COC+Sport Canada $$.
> Fact: There are a few compound archers in Canada who would be pretty follish to trade their compound paychecks in for COC $$.....recurves can only dream of that kind of sponsor support...so the grass isnt always greener on the recurve side.
> Fact: Archery Canada would love for all those who believe so strongly that compounds need more support from Archery Canada to make a tax deductable contribution towards it. With everyone on this thread stepping up, it will be no time until they can send a full team to every event...



Hey Ed thanks for all your hard work when you were on the executive. 

FACT is Archery Canada does what they can with the dollars they have. Unfortunately if you want to play you have to pay. Have been to two worlds and a world cup with my wife shooting at the same time.......Likely could have retired early if we'd saved the money but still enjoyed the experience.......


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## Stash

Classic, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but perhaps I can clarify my points.

I am not currently involved in the admin side of archery, but have been on both the FCA and OAA Boards of Directors, in a number of positions spanning some 20 years, and I've competed on a dozen or so international teams for Canada, so I think I've paid my dues and have some clue what I'm talking about.

The support staff on an archery team are not "baby sitters". They are there to assist the archers to do what they're supposed to do. You can believe me, I know from personal experience, the support staff are essential. They take the extra work off, allow the archers to train and perform to their highest potential. What you call "perks" are what I call reasonable compensation for expenses. Not pay for in order for them to profit, but compensation to reduce their losses.

I recall one team I was on, the main "support staff" individual actually expressed the belief that he was there to be a "baby sitter". He didn't last long in the association.

Job descriptions _*are*_ posted. For the OAA they're right in the Constitution (here's a link: https://www.oaa-archery.on.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=35 ) and I'm sure they're there in the FCA as well. If you are interested in volunteering and want more information on what's required, all you have to do is ask.

As for what expenses are covered for volunteers, well, again, right in the FCA Constitution, on-line: 


> ARTICLE V - REMUNERATION OF DIRECTORS, OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES
> 
> 5.01 The directors or officers as such shall not be entitled to any remuneration whatsoever, but they shall be entitled to be paid their travelling and other expenses properly incurred by them in connection with the affairs of the Corporation, and in attending meetings of the Corporation. Any director who is a bona fide employee of the Corporation (whether full-time or part-time) may be paid remuneration with respect to services performed by him as an employee.


If you need more info, again, all you have to do is pick up the phone, call someone and ask. There are no obstacles in the way for anyone willing to donate time and expertise to help out.

As for "It seems that if some one has a very substantiated post you crap on them", well, read it any way you like, but I think of it more as a reality check than crapping.


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## FiFi

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> well said fifi .... but again maybe if exec posted what job description was and also what as I call them PERKS are .... then you might get more volunteers...coming on here and some saying ... and I say some saying.... volunteer...well for what.. haven`t seen any one post a true job description here or a place to find one.. also they could mention what you do get in return ... like membership .... travel so much per mile... hotels when going to meetings.... and air fare when meetings held far away... oh my god what a concept... you just might get enough so called volunteers you`d actually have to screen or have interviews.. Most people take these jobs on because they WANT TO because of their passion for the sport... just my thoughts out loud again...


You can't be that dense, you have been told by a few people in the know where to get the information from, Stan posted a few back, its simple just call and ask...nothing stopping you


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## Reed

:tongue:


Stash said:


> Better a "has been" than a "never was" never was, stan i am a grade a back yard champ:angel:


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## DXTCLUE

Does Canada bid on hosting the World Cup ?


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## Stash

Heck, no.


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## DXTCLUE

Stash said:


> Heck, no.


Why the Heck not ?


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## FiFi

Read up on the pre qualifications to host let alone bid for on the Fita web site, that should answer any questions. Canada just doesn't have the archery infrastructure to host it, we did host the World champs in BC several years ago but alot more is requiered to host now


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## CLASSICHUNTER

fi fi maybe I`m just not that dense maybe just that smart read attached again and not for the first time read descriptions but could not find so called perks or expense account claims or what could be claimed ...is this not there ..and exec told only after the fact you have volunteered.. strange I went to a oaa meeting and was invited by the executive to be on the board ...because of what I knew ... guess I can`t be that dense.. enough said hope you get volunteers...


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## araz2114

That was a fun read. I completely agree with everyone... hahaha... 

It wasn't that long ago that Ed was asking these questions, so he got involved in the FCA. He has said what is the truth about the funding. The archers on here that are long time archers Ed, FIFI (Sean) Timmer, Stan, Kevin, Blair, Shawn (apologize to who I missed) have ALL put in time with various organizations. Yes they may be jaded... but THEY have been there. They would love nothing better than for someone to take archery by the horns and change it. They were on that train and realized the truth about archery's limitations and their own limitations to "donate" their time and especially energy.

I admire all that have gone before us and appreciate all their hard work (like what they have done or not) that they have put in. The group I mentioned above probably have over 250 years of experience between all of them. They will all be interested in seeing what the new generation can put together to move archery ahead. 

Lets keep this ball rolling and get more funding for archery.

Chris


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## ontario3-d'r

Boy, this has become quite the posting. A very direct, but simple question was asked, and has turned into over 70 responses. All this really boilds down to is what is fair. The COC sponsor's Olympic sports - we get that. However, the compound community is growing increasingly frustrated. A significant amount of the membership are compound shooters - more than half. The money collected from memberships, indoor and outdoor nationals FROM THE COMPOUNDS is not being used to support them.!! We have some very talented Olympic shooters in Canada - absolutely - however; in my opinion, less than 20 are competitive on the world stage. In all disciplines of archrey, there are over 40 compound shooters that could easily wear the Maple leaf at international events and be successful.


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## Canuck

The big picture numbers are all on the FCA website if one cares to look.

Membership fees - 82K
Fundraising & Participant contribution (I assume this is money raised from entry fees etc. to national events) - 70K
Products and other Sales - 33K

Total - 185K

FCA Expenses for Staff, Insurance, Events, products etc - 410K


Ooops were short 225K

Sport Canada and CAC covers the shortfall with the rest used for recurve/para funding........

Basic economics show that there really isn't anything left over to fund other disciplines. Looks like 63K for last year which leaves you a bit of operating room for the following year where you hope funding isn't cut again..........


The amount of money collected from memberships, and national events (most goes back to the host club) really is insignifacant when you look at the cost of sending teams and staff to world events.


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## Reed

DXTCLUE said:


> Why the Heck not ?


GT answered that on on the AUS website. For AUS to hold a worldcup it was going to cost in the region of $1,000,000 dont remember how he came to that number though. ANyone remember the cost when vancouver held the world champs in the late 90's


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Sorry said I wouldn`t post again but have to.. was just watching tv and our national ping pong team was being highlighted .. funny 20 dollar paddle and a 1 dollar ball.. my question is we are all trying to get funding for our shooter no matter what class.. again I use sno boarding as an venue.. are our shooters allowed to wear sponsors logos on their canadian shirts.. Just look at fishing .. gun shooting etc etc .. Its hard for a big company to sponsor and donate $ if they can`t see their name in lights..seems we are way behind the times with this sport .. again look at bicycling now theres rolling billboards.. I think our governing bodies in general have to step up.. to the new times and again exec can Table motions at their agms To allow this type of sponsorship...on our shirts or pants. We do all want this sport to advance .. but when you have to wear beige pants and such if that is still the norm ... Well we have to definitely get things rolling..I`ve owned stores and restaurant that is why I cut to the chase and want solid answers to some of my questions.. again when I sponsored people the first question was what can you do for me ..will I get sales will I get customers will my name be out there in the masses ... trying not to be DENSE Just giving a business mans take on this ... And oh some of my sponsored people had use of 40 k bass boats for the year ... and they sold them for me before they where handed back in to me its a give and take world out there folks .. Hopefully stash and fifi now know where I`m coming from..My comments are not personal attacks ...Hopefully we see logos on our shirts and whopping big sponsorship chqs for our shooters,,,need a hand call me my number is on my colour poster in the OAA book page 29 thanks...


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## wanemann

well.....this actually had the potential to go down the right road, people had a great opportunity to share and inform us of the efforts being hade to move archery forward, instead the road of name calling and show of frustrations was taken. I for one do not dispute the efforts of anyone, and am grateful for all you have done over your long years of helping, however, I hoped for less mocking, name calling and negative input like i've been at this for years, never gonna happen that's just how it is, having said that, I now say with do respect to whoever, maybe its time for some new blood and a fresh look. with that comment I in a non confrontational way ask what is being done to capture such people(just putting that out there no actually looking for an answer here) thing is, as it was so eloquently put, the key board crew consist of over 1000 archers(on this post alone) so far, 70 of who chose to partake in this conversation, now how are we getting the 1000+ motivated to get involved, they are here so they have interest they, we just need a push, this was not it.



classic,

you are a club owner therefore having direct access to people of all ages and disciplines in this sport, other club presidents etc. you are in a position to have some sort of positive influence on this sport, it appears few have left a bad taste in your mouth but i hope these are just words and you do not let the word of few restrict you in any way. I applaud you questioning attitude.



cheers to all


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## Grey Eagle

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> fi fi maybe I`m just not that dense maybe just that smart read attached again and not for the first time read descriptions but could not find so called perks or expense account claims or what could be claimed ...is this not there ..and exec told only after the fact you have volunteered.. strange I went to a oaa meeting and was invited by the executive to be on the board ...because of what I knew ... guess I can`t be that dense.. enough said hope you get volunteers...


LMFAO.....................

Sorry, had to come out of retirement for this one. You weren't "invited" to be on the OAA exec because of "what you knew". After spewing your diatribe, as per usual, you were effectively told to put up or shut up. Or at least that is how every sane person read it, you took it in your own Teddy way.

As for those whom have served, and are a little testy, maybe those making the "why hasn't this been done?!" comments should rephrase and put it in terms of "how can I help" Wait, that sounds a lot like put up or shut up ;>)

Happy Trails


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## wanemann

how can i help?, pm me for my personal email and phone #

I live in the GTA, am and electrician by trade due to work I i am all over place, and hours are not constant. however if it is within my ability to help out i will if it is needed.

so can some one contact me with volunteer positions, or committee or what ever, detailing expectations regarding hours of commitment required, travel, mandatory meeting attendance, task required, helpful skills, perks if any, that sort of thing, and again if within my ability i will do my best to aid in supporting archery moving forward.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Hey grey eagle who the he-- are you at least have the b--ls to fill out your bio and I did offer my phone number and assistance guess you can`t read or write so now we are both insulting each other feel better..


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## Lgard723

http://www.womenboxing.com/NEWS2012/news030912spencer.htm

Procter & Gamble Canada (P&G), in cooperation with the Canadian Olympic Committee (COC), proudly announces its sponsorship of nine Canadian Olympic hopefuls as they prepare to represent the country at the London 2012 Olympic Games.


Globally, P&G will support 200 athletes, the largest group ever sponsored by an Olympic partner, and is committed to support the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and Canadian Olympic Committee (COC) for the next ten years.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

would Procter and Gamble go on board for a lesser venue maybe...also.. wow somebody did some door knocking with a good presentation.. there are lots of large companies that sponsor .. I see Bell loblaws ..etc etc etc out there.. archery just has to prove they will carry their name well and boldly.. as I asked can athlete carry logos on their shirts.. does anybody have a ruling on that.. ????


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## FiFi

wanemann said:


> how can i help?, pm me for my personal email and phone #
> 
> I live in the GTA, am and electrician by trade due to work I i am all over place, and hours are not constant. however if it is within my ability to help out i will if it is needed.
> 
> so can some one contact me with volunteer positions, or committee or what ever, detailing expectations regarding hours of commitment required, travel, mandatory meeting attendance, task required, helpful skills, perks if any, that sort of thing, and again if within my ability i will do my best to aid in supporting archery moving forward.



Very simple contact either the OAA web site or FCA web site and look for any open postions, there are many, then contact either the OAA President or FCA Exceutive dir and volunteer....nothing to it


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## hoody123

Ted I suspect that your lack of knowledge of who Grey Eagle is, is telling of where you're at here and within the target archery venue in general. I know that every person who is sounding somewhat skeptical in this thread knows who it is - I know who it is and have only engaged in target archery in a very limited capacity in the last 10 years. The folks on here are skeptical because they've been here, done that, have the shirt. They all have explored avenues and been the folks that absolutely tried to get the ball rolling and have correctly determined, this ball stays where it is.

Honestly, I've been reading this thread as it has grown and I think that many of the folks in here live in a very insular world where they think archery is a big deal. I'm sorry, it's not. Ted I applaud your efforts with your tournament, it's awesome you've got a good sized event going. In general however, most people don't have the foggiest clue as to what archery entails, nor will they ever. For one thing it's a "Shooting sport", it's never going to have mass appeal based on that alone. We are NOT going to attract substantial sponsorship money to events here, there just isn't the market. A company that pours substantial money into sponsorship is rarely going to do it because they're being charitable, they're doing it because of the eyes that will see it, and that exposure will lead in some tangible way to increasing the bottom line of their balance sheet. Archery will never (particularly NON-OLYMPIC archery) have enough eyes on it for anyone to invest substantially. I honestly thought ages ago we were at a turning point and archery was going to boom back in the days of the Pioneer shoot in Kitchener when there were 700+ archers and vendors and... it's waned significantly since then.

Trying to compare archery to all the sports listed in this thread is patently laughable. You know how many kids (people) participate in skateboarding, snowboarding, heck even table tennis? I'd surmise a minimum of 100 for every one person who shoots a bow regularly. At my school a huge number of kids snowboard and skateboard and I live in a tiny rural community, you'd think that archery would at least have a fighting chance here, it doesn't. Comparing archery to fishing? Are you kidding? (seriously, are you kidding?)

By all means, be a driving force in archery, get motivated, get stuff done. But... be realistic about it too.


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## cc46

wow, I read a few posts a few days ago and thought...hmm, reality check coming up...and catching up today, sorry it's sad and funny. 

It's the money guys!!! without money it's a recreation....in my view

and I don't see the numbers to get the money. 

can a few thousand archers in this country support all of this? hmmm maybe if the membership fee was in thousands per year each just maybe and every shoot a $100 bucks, but hey I know familys of hockey kids that spend thousands a year, or figure skating spending thousands a year, but we as archers look at a club shoot fee of $15 and say, wow that's expensive does it include a burger? and do I get a new target face for practise? 

clubs scrape by, plain a simple, and so do the associations, heck it costs more for one night at a hotel than most major tournament entry fees....duh it won't advance without cash. And it's a false notion that corporate sponsers are interested. Better to bake some cupcakes or sell tomatoes on the side of the road at shoots and see how much money you can make. 

I have the uptmost respect and for the unpaid volunteers over the years that have allowed me an opportunity to shoot on the weekend. Thank you so much, see you on the line soon!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

didn`t the mother of shoots just a month ago have 640 shooters for a indoor shoot ..and they gave away a truck.. when petter garrette and Tim watts went to Italy this was televised and it was a big deal... and yes it takes alot of good volunteers.. and many brain cells ..Guess I`m just to passionate about the sport...


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## araz2114

Hey Ted, I am glad you are passionate about archery. Things have changed over the years. Don't let anyone tell you stuff can't be done... With perseverance and determination things can change. It just takes effort. If you have it then use it. Who knows... there may be a thread in the future that is..."Ted finally did it... got great sponsorship for Archery.... thank you"... 

By the way, I am not being sarcastic or a smart alec... I believe someone can get this done.

Chris


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## Canuck

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> would Procter and Gamble go on board for a lesser venue maybe...also.. wow somebody did some door knocking with a good presentation.. there are lots of large companies that sponsor .. I see Bell loblaws ..etc etc etc out there.. archery just has to prove they will carry their name well and boldly.. as I asked can athlete carry logos on their shirts.. does anybody have a ruling on that.. ????


No athletes cannot have logos on team uniforms for FITA events such as worlds, world cups etc. Olympics are even more stringent.


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## Canuck

Lgard723 said:


> http://www.womenboxing.com/NEWS2012/news030912spencer.htm
> 
> Procter & Gamble Canada (P&G), in cooperation with the Canadian Olympic Committee (COC), proudly announces its sponsorship of nine Canadian Olympic hopefuls as they prepare to represent the country at the London 2012 Olympic Games.
> 
> 
> Globally, P&G will support 200 athletes, the largest group ever sponsored by an Olympic partner, and is committed to support the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and Canadian Olympic Committee (COC) for the next ten years.


The sponsorship at your link is individual sponsorship given to the athlete not the sports organizing body. Several of Canadas world class archers and para-archers do have private sponsorship, but they went out and found it themselves........Same thing happens in other sports a coworker of mine has an excellent sponsorship as she is a world class wrestler but receives almost nothing from the national body. Again she was dedicated, hired a personal manager and went out and found her own sponsorship money.


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## x-hunta

Canuck said:


> No athletes cannot have logos on team uniforms for FITA events such as worlds, world cups etc. Olympics are even more stringent.


I thought this was the way it was but looking at the the danish uniforms from indoor worlds they had Danage and Carbon Express logos on the front of their shirts.


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## wanemann

araz2114 said:


> Hey Ted, I am glad you are passionate about archery. Things have changed over the years. Don't let anyone tell you stuff can't be done... With perseverance and determination things can change. It just takes effort. If you have it then use it. Who knows... there may be a thread in the future that is..."Ted finally did it... got great sponsorship for Archery.... thank you"...
> 
> By the way, I am not being sarcastic or a smart alec... I believe someone can get this done.
> 
> Chris


100% on the money, this is the correct way to fuel passionate people. too much cant/wont and never thrown around on here, I consider myself a pretty positive person, I actually had hopes of one day being at the world tournament, but after this i am ready to go bake some cupcakes instead. thanks guys you have succeeded in driving the passion for this sport out of me, try to be the good at something in this sport why? unless at olympic level you will only be the best of those who can afford it, how sad, why would you negative people not encourage changing this fact? even if hopeless isn't there a minuet chance of where there is a will there is a way. The negativity doesn't make sense to me, nor does the unwillingness to discuss openly and civilly something doesn't add up, maybe I just lack the years of experience and knowledge of this soprt and its orginizations so that's it for me on this topic I am out.
and just kidding about giving up, i plan to give guys peter g and any others... who can afford it a run for his money one day.


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## cc46

a truck give away for a shoot with 640 archers??? don't tell me the truck cost was supported by entry fees.....say 30,000/640= $47ea no way or was it?

hey I was involved with a non profit community theater for my daughter years ago and after several 100 hr years of volnteering they put me on the board of directors...interesting dynamic working in the arts, but the business end worked -- basically 5 or 6 shows a year, average tickect $15 a seat, average 300 seats sold a night, each show goes 10 nights over 3 weeks after 6 weeks of rehearsal...5x15x300x10=$225k year ticket sales, then membership fees 150 members x $30=$4500 to cover insurance, then rentals of the facility for external bands and concerts say $50k/yr for unuseds nights, then concession sales say $500/night x (50+10) event nights=$30k, all in the gross rev was 290k, nevermind cost (mortgage heat repairs supplies etc) at the moment this revenue was enough to exist, but no one got paid and no one got trips accross the ocean, and the phone bill was often late and the mortgage got paid late sometimes, and we begged local businesses for sponsorship and advertising on programs.

But what saved the model was the seat revenue! and we all hustled to sell seats!

In archery what does a club or an association have? membership fees and tournament fees...and what else, a few burgers.

Compare that to sending a team overseas to a tournament, say 12 team members 2 coaches, 14 flights x $1500 =$21K, 8 hotel rooms for 6 days = 14k, 6 days of meals for 14 people=$4k, I'd guess $39k per tournament x 4 world cups=$156k. If 3000 membership in Canada to support this then $156,000/3000members =$52 from each member is requied to support the team at 4 world cups, nevermind anything else. 

I don't know but if we balk at the price of a $15 shoot are we going to chip in an extra $52 to send the teams to a the WCs? 

Just saying.....if you've got a revenue stream things can happen...


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## Canuck

x-hunta said:


> I thought this was the way it was but looking at the the danish uniforms from indoor worlds they had Danage and Carbon Express logos on the front of their shirts.


Might have changed since I was shooting, but my guess is both CX and danage are FITA sponsors. A non-endemic sponsor would have to be found to provide any kind of revenue source for archery in Canada. Many have tried and I hope others continue to seek them out, membership fees and shoot revenues will never be able to provide funding to international events unless both increase exponentially.

Pretty sure the truck event was insured, similar to winning a car for a hole in one, at least it was in the past. Be interesting to see if the insurer ups the rates if it was and if they can make it happen again.


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## Grey Eagle

wanemann, the easiest way for you to help out is to cut your teeth at your local club. That's where it all starts. If you haven't already done so, I would encourage you to get involved at that level first. Lord knows the local clubs need the help, any help. And you'll get an appreciation for the sport that may well lead you to want to become involved at a higher level. Nothing but good can come out of that. And Araz is right, don't let us cynics dissuade you, change comes from somewhere.

As the others have said, archery (at present) is simply not mainstream enough to garner the attention, and support, that other sports and recreational activities receive. And given the infrastructure required to support the sport, I honestly don't see that changing. But it's fun to dream 

Teddy, I'll be sure to say hi to you this Sunday at the first leg of the Seaway Challenge.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

The shoot was out west called the mother of shoots...largest entry for indoor 3-d in canada 640 entries and my point is I think there was a truck given away ... and like I have stated a little effort can bring big things.. cc46 it doesn`t matter how truck got there I never mentioned how but just was ..


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## CLASSICHUNTER

I brought the thread for the mother of shoots to top for sakes interest, for whomever.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

araz214 chris thanks for the motivation here.. could you please post from your map which is great ...how many clubs we have in canada.. I have an idea spurned by you.. I would spearhead a fund for a team ..nothing to do with oaa or fca monies would be put in a trust account with 3 or 2 signatures required and incorporated..how would we get this money.. clubs of canada.. hhhmmm sounds like a good name as well for it.. lol each club has a challenge of raising only 1k depending on numbers to help send a team of a reasonable number to CERTAIN events... the shooters would all have to put a resume of past performance and present achievements no matter what categories they shoot in ... High scores would bring in so many points but passion and achievements in the archery world also rates points towards choice.. we want some archery ambassadors as well for the sport.. and those that present themselves ... capability and personality wise will be chosen.. we would pick ... compound trad and recurve shooters to go . This would be separate from oaa and fca so There would be no support people .. guess what guys want to go take on the grunt work.. carry your own bags and get your own water.. I guess the ugly ducks of archery//..... I know sounds off the wall but could be done and we could also get corporate sponsorship as well ...means knocking on doors and people calling in favours... you know like guys that work for Banks in management positions selling the idea to get some funding... and that was only a example.. right down to the tire installer getting his boss to donate for a patch on shooters sleeve.. The hardware store etc etc we could start this year and probably send our first team out next year...with some or all assistance... what do you guys think..Am I out to lunch on this.. The clubs could raise their 1 k in any way possible raffles ..pot luck dinners.. tournaments etc etc ... I really shouldn`t start something like this but my brain says go for it. like all of you had said we need new blood .. well whos in and who wants to be on the board of directors.. I`ll lead it and if you want to know my background in promotions just ask I have some.. no lots lol .. we can only give it a try.. can`t hurt..Don`t know but I think only clubs that put up the monies can only make shooter application then we have no clubs not contributing but we are financing their shooters.. this will get the shooters to get the clubs involved then and a little pressure to get all clubs on board.. any body feel motivated now????


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## Stash

Sounds like a great idea.

Just keep in mind that for FITA (World Archery) events like the World Cup and World Target/Field/Indoor/3D championships, the shoots are not open to anyone - teams have to be from the various NSGBs (National Sport Governing Bodies). So that means the FCA (Archery Canada) is in charge of the team selection process. 

Good luck with this new project.


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## cheaplaughs

thats a great idea classichunter we were thinking of the exact same thing on our way down to georgia.everytime we filled up the travel team truck.i better start shooting better.


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## araz2114

It looks like 65 clubs Ted.


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## crazymoose

If you could get archery clubs on board say provincially or nationally,could you not have a donation fund set up and collections be taken in support of our Canadian Archery Team.
From attending 3D tournaments over the years,I've seen a lot of raffle tables set up to raise funds for the hosting clubs and money is being spent.
So set up a donation box for shooters to help aid in funding some of their expenses for these international events,every little bit would help.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

I guess this is one tournament that won`t be on the list or we could have a rotating team of archers different people for different shoots then everybody gets a little assistance not a group of ??? wow 65 clubs 65 k budget for the year plus corporate cash seems do able and then there might be some clubs not registered as of yet also looks like we could hit 100 k no problem..


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Paul excellent idea like the red kettle of archery just like at xmas ..one thing though we do not want to spend money to produce kettles we would need a sponsor to make them or as you say ... some container of sorts.. we still want each club in for 1 k commitment..


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## peregrine82

Just to clear up the truck give away. I believe this was set up like a hole in one contest at golf tournaments. The organizers purchase insurance that cover off the cost of the car/truck/annuity as a prize. The truck was won on a very long shot through a very small hole. Odds on this happening were similar to the hole in one odds. So Ted if you are contemplating a mega prize for your event you may want to look into this.


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## cc46

Thx for the info on that truck peregrine82. 

And Classic, not sure the MOAS's is a good example of how to win the hearts minds and wallets of corporate sponsors given the recent behaviour.

Let me pose a question, do you think the shooters at the MOASs would all chip in an extra couple of hundred bucks on their entry fee to send a select team to the world cup?


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## CLASSICHUNTER

It was used as an example that things can happen with some effort numbers are achievable for big attendance and no bobby your not going to win a truck at my tournament..and I don`t think the shooters from moass would do that we are trying to get this off the ground.. why nickel and dime people let them volunteer so their club gives their k instead..


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## CLASSICHUNTER

ok guys seems like some like this..... I need a rep from each province to get in contact with clubs and help with set up and guide lines.... want some doers here ...if interested e-mail me at [email protected] with contact info and some history on yourself..I think this is a start.. I would hope oaa and fca would post this on their sites ..... as this is to assist shooters from all of canada and any other provincial governing bodies....would also post provincial site


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## FiFi

i think you need to really read Stans post again, what your proposing isn't new and has been done for many archers in the past individualy, you really need to read up on the team selection process and what tournaments your idea can be used in, open tournamnets like the IFAA World indoor/Field/ 3D are easily possible but closed tournaments like Fita World indoor/Field/Target/World Cup/3D will be problamatic. As well many clubs already set aside a tournament for more worthy causes like Cancer shoots etc so asking clubs to do it again for something they may see benifiting only a very few will also be problematic


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Fi Fi sorry but you asked some one to step up.. I came up with an idea others seem positive your statement about more worthy causes.. I host only one tournament a year and last year was its first and we donated 2k to the local hospital.. I think thats a pretty worthy cause..again in my post I said they could have pot luck dinners etc tc etc raffles Paul came up with donation cans.. not just tournaments.. WE ARE HERE TO GROW ARCHERY .and it is also to send different shooters to different tournaments or the selected few for the fita worlds since they need some assistance.. the same 4 or 5 will not benefit solely from this effort.. we have nothing to loose and who knows it just might take off well enough that archery will be in parallel with other sports my god advertising on shirts at the Olympics or worlds and compounds and 3-d as an Olympic sport... lol lol lets not stagnate lets be proactive not reactive...also there was the Quebec organization that controlled everything ....and a group branched out and started the pro 3-d in Quebec. its a series and the winners have their expenses paid to go to the ibo worlds 3-d ... and this year the ibo has come on board with them to host a shoot in Quebec...there are other venues to archery...and when you say benefiting a small few oaa has only sent 2 people to the 3d nationals for years Tim watts and Charles kelly both very deserving shooters and now a couple more but to qualify you must shoot national tournaments ..I think 3 of them to get your score aggricate to qualify.. well one of those is in bc duh spend 3k to get 2 k assistance.. if I am right .. I looked up funding .and it was not well set up to qualify for the average shooter..... I could be out there on this and please no go to fca or oaa and look up and cross check this or that replies ..fifi you have The contacts are you... in it would help us lots.. and I really mean that...thanks TED


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## x-hunta

Ted in theory your idea is not so bad. But there are a few things to consider, for some clubs raising $1000 dollars can be a fair amount of work, sure it can be done though but it will need some serious effort. Number two, what happens if you have clubs that don't raise the thousand dollars? Are you going to deny any shooters from that club then even if they tried to get it going? Number 3, how do you propose team selection for these shoots? Number 4, how do you plan on alloting money for each tournament, some will cost more to get to and sometimes the airfares will vary vastly across the country. This is a great idea in theory but putting it together and getting all the guidelines and detail set straight will need some serious review by several people IMO, just to be sure that it won't be biased and will be fair to all archers no matter the category.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

please read post 106 ...... has some guide lines .....this is a work in progress .... not enough people ... won`t happen.. also we need a rep from each province.. it makes it a joint effort for all of Canada It gives the clubs a year to raise 1k each.. ...also in previous posts we are going to cover different categories etc and as I said not the same group of 5 ...all the time ...post 96 both good reads and only a starting point... there is some good feedback and I think the people putting questions forward are the kind of people we want on the board... now that I`ve said that don`t let this issue go silent...


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## cheaplaughs

i hope you get this going quick,we need gas money to get back home from georgia.goodluck


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## DXTCLUE

cheaplaughs said:


> i hope you get this going quick,we need gas money to get back home from georgia.goodluck


:roflmao:


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## CLASSICHUNTER

cheaplaughs did we get your resume lmao also how`d you guys do...


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## peregrine82

If we ask everyone to volunteer a tablespoon of gas you may have enough to get off the club property.


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## Grey Eagle

Plan your work, work your plan.

What's the end game here? Can someone clearly define what it is?

Look at the number of clubs whom are members of the OAA, then look at how many host events of any description. It's only a portion. Now when you look at the number of clubs in the province that are truly healthy enough to even consider contribuiting in the fashion that is being suggested, the number is reduced again. I'm sure that scenario is consistent across the country, not just in Ontario.

Not trying to discourage anyone, I actually applaud the spirit. But you really need to think this through, completely through, before heading off blindly.


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## FiFi

Grey Eagle said:


> Plan your work, work your plan.
> 
> What's the end game here? Can someone clearly define what it is?
> 
> Look at the number of clubs whom are members of the OAA, then look at how many host events of any description. It's only a portion. Now when you look at the number of clubs in the province that are truly healthy enough to even consider contribuiting in the fashion that is being suggested, the number is reduced again. I'm sure that scenario is consistent across the country, not just in Ontario.
> 
> Not trying to discourage anyone, I actually applaud the spirit. But you really need to think this through, completely through, before heading off blindly.



Exactly, like I said this is nothing new and has been done succesfully for individual shooters that made a Provincial or National teams, with an idea comes much research before a viable plan came even begin to be laid out, I can say for sure that LKA has already a 100% donation cancer shoot already in its 3rd year, for us to do another for a National team that most local archers don't care about..don't think so but maybe others can


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## CLASSICHUNTER

fi fi as I stated it is an idea .. said I needed in put said I needed help with this.. fifi and grey eagle come on board and let us use your expertise ... please get this national team thing out of the picture this is for archers in general. honestly I think 1 k per club is not out of wack.. I`ll ask ... when you hold a oaa national what does it cost a club. Does oaa have club buy medals ..I know at the ones I went to club had to print new score cards and follow oaa criteria and don`t you have to bid on these events so it takes some of your profits away right up front.. I`m not picking on oaa I`m glad they are around ... I just think 1k is not out of line.. how much of each entry goes back to the oaa as a sanctioned shoot???? entry is 60 dollars ...how many other shoots does the lka club host through out the year now over and above their cancer shoot??? just questions in general...


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## FiFi

all those are simple question you can easily get from the OAA office, as for LKA we host 4 other events that are used to cover the operating cost for the year, those last 4 events LKA may make a $1000 total.

If your not going to tie it to any Provincial or national teams you will need a strong criteria to chose those archers, the more "subjective" a formula you have the higher your liabilty concearns will be and since this will be essentially a private enterprise the liabilty will become a personal one not a board or corporate


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## CLASSICHUNTER

fi fi sorry but please read my first post.. again on this I said it would be incorporated shooter choice is by resume.. all this has been said and input asked for and you say the lka club will only make 1k that means you guys only clear 250 dollars a tournament.. I don`t know but when I was a tournament director for 2 different clubs we made ...over that on the kitchen alone ..is this a very small club just wondering and yes I could see the 1k being a problem then ..


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## FiFi

yes its a small club, I am cerainly not going to spell out the clubs finances to a non member but our system works well and we have been stable even when 4 other clubs went out of business around us. As for your proposal good luck with it but don't look to LKA to support it


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## cath8r

So who went this year and how did they place? I have alot more respect for the commitment the people who do get to go (especially the compound shooters) having read what they all must go through and commit!


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## Lgard723

2012 London Paralympic Games 

Who's Canada sending ? ... found the US team roster

www2.teamusa.org/US-Paralympics/Sports/Archery/Team-Rosters.aspx


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## DXTCLUE

cath8r said:


> So who went this year and how did they place? I have alot more respect for the commitment the people who do get to go (especially the compound shooters) having read what they all must go through and commit!


Recurve - LYON = 13th
Recurve - Duenas = 19th

Compound - Letourneau = 56th = DNS. He made the cut, then not sure what happened.


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## Lgard723

Lgard723 said:


> 2012 London Paralympic Games
> 
> Who's Canada sending ? ... found the US team roster
> 
> www2.teamusa.org/US-Paralympics/Sports/Archery/Team-Rosters.aspx


APA archery is sponsoring Bob Hudson - 2012 London Games ... check out his video, pretty cool

http://buzz-videos.eu/video-film-hell-on-wheels/

Vortex is another corporate sponsor supporting Bob's Olympic Dreams ... http://vortexcanada.net/prostaff/bob_hudson.html

Congratulations to Bob Hudson winner of the Silver medal in Archery, Mens Individual Compound - Open, at the ParaPanAmerican Games in Guadalajara, Mexico in November 2011. Bob and his teammate, Kevin Evans took the top two places on the podium with Kevin taking the Gold. See new photos below.

Everyone at Vortex wishes them well as they train towards next year's Paralympic Games in London next summer!


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## Grey Eagle

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> fi fi as I stated it is an idea .. said I needed in put said I needed help with this.. fifi and grey eagle come on board and let us use your expertise Been there, no time at present, willing to offer my thoughts and experiences. ... please get this national team thing out of the picture this is for archers in general. honestly I think 1 k per club is not out of wack..Absolutely is when you take a serious look at what it takes to float a club I`ll ask ... when you hold a oaa national what does it cost a club.No such thing as an OAA "national event" OAA is the provincial body. As for the cost to a club for hosting a provincial event, it is a percentage of the registration fee, the exact amount is clearly spelled out on the OAA website. Does oaa have club buy medals The OAA provides the medals ..I know at the ones I went to club had to print new score cards and follow oaa criteria and don`t you have to bid on these events so it takes some of your profits away right up frontThere is no cost to a club for bidding on an OAA sanctioned or sponsored event.. I`m not picking on oaa I`m glad they are around ... I just think 1k is not out of line.. how much of each entry goes back to the oaa as a sanctioned shoot???? Only at sponsored shoots (the 5 provincial championships) does a portion of the entry fee go to the OAA (read my earlier comment). The two "sanctioned" events, the 2nd and 3rd legs of the 3D triple crown the hosting clubs pay a fee to help offset the cost of the plaques/medals entry is 60 dollars ...how many other shoots does the lka club host through out the year now over and above their cancer shoot??? just questions in general...


You need to do a little research before you start off Ted. Learn from those before you, and build from that.

BTW, good talking to you today at the Seaway


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## Xs24-7

Well, if one positive thing came from all this, it pulled Grey Eagle out of retirement. Always good to see!

Having been around a bit, I have some insite into finances, how Archery Canada manages its funds, etc. Every $ is mananged, none is taken for granted, and all is spent within the constraints given to Archery Canada by its funding partners(COC, Sport Canada, Membership, PSO's, etc) Its important to note that the sole mandate of Archery Canada isnt to send teams to World Events. There are many, many demands on the small amount of $$ that is availible, and they are prioritized each year. There are many hands out, many programs to fund, and many irons in the fire. 
Some have asked for a breakdown of "executive/committee perks"...I could go into detail, but heres the rough rundown. As an exec member you get to go to Oattawa in January each year for the exec. meeting where you get to enjoy 16 hours of meetings packed into 2 days....You get the pleasure of attending the AGM/BOD meeting held alongside the National Outdoors...where you get to essentially spend every minute that archers arent on the field in various meetings. Usually it entails leaving your hotel room at 6 am and getting back to it sometime after 10 PM each night. Those involved arent there for "The Perks"...and the insinuation that there are many is insulting. Anyone who has any involvment is Archery Canada knows whats involved, hense the lack of people willing to put up their hand to contribute. If you take part on a committee, you get the pleasure of emails/conference calls...and if its the LTAD committee, maybe you too get to spend a weekend at an Airport Hotel spending 9 hour+ days packing a years worth of work into a weekend.
I dont post the above to discourage people from taking part, but moreso as a reality check for those who think that being on the exec is some kind of golden ticket. I have no regrets for my past involvment, and look forward to being able to contribute some day again soon(baby on the way, new job=no time) 
For those asking how they can get involved, I would suggest get involved in your club, do all/learn all you can. Following that, make sure you attend your PSO AGM/BOD meetings, and then get involved at the PSO level. Once you have learned/experienced that, you will know whats out there, what committees are active, and where work needs ot be done, and then perhaps put your hand up to take part on the National committees. Too often new people get fired up and want to help, only to join a national committee without the knowledge/experience needed to get the right things done. They burn out in about 6 months, quit inside the year, and move on to something else. Those who learn the ropes usually havea bit more staying power. 

I like the passion some have shown in the posts above, but some of the planning shows a huge lack of experience/foresite. The plan to get 65 clubs to give $1000 has no legs. It wont happen. Most clubs are barely solvent, and club funds need to support the grassroots development of archery. to take 65k from those grassroots to fund travel for a select few will not grow archery. $65k could do a lot more good for archery in Canada spent on many things, but plane tickets and hotel fees isnt one of them.
Archery in Canada is handcuffed by our status as a fringe sport(compound archery even more so)...look around your community, and you will see all kinds of sporting clubs...baseball, curling, hockey, soccer, bowling, cycling, running, gymnastics, golf, etc etc etc...understand that all those sports are ahead of Archery. understand that we will get the scraps, and that isnt going to change any time soon. It is the reality of the sport we all CHOOSE to participate in. I have lived archery for 20 years, and I wouldnt trade it for the world. But that doesnt change the reality of the world we live in. I have seen archers do well in archery...Dietmar makes a living shooting a bow...I bet Chris did alright last year...Jay/Crispin both do alright between their COC, quest for gold, and private sponsors....but they are the select few...and its no different in any other sport. We have thousands of golf courses across Canada..yet only 2 guys on the PGA tour....Elite Sport isnt something that everyone gets to do. It is univerally very expensive, and that isnt unique to archery. Ask any parent of a child coming up an any other sport, no matter the talent, the costs are huge...for the select few, yes, there is a payoff...but for the majority in any sport, its a pay to play scenario.


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## bigdawg

Sorry Jay Lyon is tied for 9th and Crispin Duenas is Tied for 17th. That is how they are awarded world cup points and world ranking points. Both had a solid rank and a good match play finish.

Please listen to what Ed has to say. He has gone through this for many years and knows what he is talking about. Very experienced archer who has gone through this time and time again.



DXTCLUE said:


> Recurve - LYON = 13th
> Recurve - Duenas = 19th
> 
> Compound - Letourneau = 56th = DNS. He made the cut, then not sure what happened.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

I`m confused here now The thread started out with no funding for travel now ed x24 says that travel funding is not an issue in his last paragraph at the top not perfect quote but 65 k could do alot more for archery other than plane tickets and hotels ..???? Now I don`t know where to put my efforts and again I started this as an idea looking for positives .. have only negative responses so far from past or present executive... my question is SO WHAT DO WE DO TO HELP PEOPLE GET TO THESE TOURNAMENTS...????


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## wanemann

sorry, i know i said i was out but I wanted to offer my 2 cents perhaps one last time.

Ted, "its never gonna happen, its been done time and time before, too many keyboard whiners, its better to make cupcakes, the best have tried and are doing everything possible".
you have a .1% maybe 5% chance of getting our world class shooters anywhere, you have 0%, nada, nothing ,zilch, donut, negative zero chance, listening to the above who have made these comments. how to help people get to these tournaments? keep doing what you are doing, trying to do, gather like minded passionate people who are at a bare minimum willing to gather and talk(easy enough with today's media, skype, msn, video calls etc you never have to leave the comfort of your home), , through around ideas on promoting archery and how to generate revenue, worse thing that can happen with coarse of action is you get some ideas for bettering the sport in general or at a community level. 

personally i believe you know things take time, planning, effort, (research(start with the italians find out what they do and how they do it) so keep going with the call for like minded people with passion for the sport. since post #33 I recommended this be turned into ideas on how to change things only to be met with mocking and discouragement(disguised as reality checks) of such, seems odd for a group who does nothing but concentrate or aim for the smallest of goals (+) and usually hits it after perseverance, gathering knowledge doing research, and asking for help.


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## Stash

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> SO WHAT DO WE DO TO HELP PEOPLE GET TO THESE TOURNAMENTS...????


Bottom line - get funding from either the Government or from corporate or other sponsors, or a private philanthropist. There isn't simply enough money to be had solely from members of the general archery community to do anything meaningful with regards to travel funding for international teams. 

How to get Government funding? Elect a socialist leaning government. The Liberals of the '70s were pretty lavish with their sports spending.

How to get corporate sponsorship? Now, THAT is a good question. You have to demonstrate that sponsoring archers is an advertising medium that will increase the corporation's profits, and the only way to do that is to make archery watchable by the masses. Can't be done, other than an occasional curiosity.

And that is the basis for the negativity that's been rampant throughout this thread. Most of us who have been negative on this thread are NOT being so out of malice - it's just friendly advice. We have been involved with the sport on the administrative level for a long time and have come to the realization that archery is too small and too boring to become a media darling, and we simply accept that as the way it is. Ed put it perfectly:"It is the reality of the sport we all CHOOSE to participate in."


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Stash great response answers to the questions I asked about 25 posts ago... Do you guys not think its time to change it even up to the Olympic level... in Europe its televised we as a GROUP have to lobby for these changes.... IMHO


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## Grey Eagle

wanemann said:


> sorry, i know i said i was out but I wanted to offer my 2 cents perhaps one last time.
> 
> Ted, "its never gonna happen, its been done time and time before, too many keyboard whiners, its better to make cupcakes, the best have tried and are doing everything possible".
> you have a .1% maybe 5% chance of getting our world class shooters anywhere, you have 0%, nada, nothing ,zilch, donut, negative zero chance, listening to the above who have made these comments. how to help people get to these tournaments? keep doing what you are doing, trying to do, gather like minded passionate people who are at a bare minimum willing to gather and talk(easy enough with today's media, skype, msn, video calls etc you never have to leave the comfort of your home), , through around ideas on promoting archery and how to generate revenue, worse thing that can happen with coarse of action is you get some ideas for bettering the sport in general or at a community level.
> 
> personally i believe you know things take time, planning, effort, (research(start with the italians find out what they do and how they do it) so keep going with the call for like minded people with passion for the sport. since post #33 I recommended this be turned into ideas on how to change things only to be met with mocking and discouragement(disguised as reality checks) of such, seems odd for a group who does nothing but concentrate or aim for the smallest of goals (+) and usually hits it after perseverance, gathering knowledge doing research, and asking for help.


Open your ears and listen, really listen. The comments you are perceiving as negative, you need to realize are really the voice of past experience trying to guide you not to fail. By all means utilize that new found energy you have, but be smart enough not to waste it on making the same mistakes, fall into the same pitfalls those whom have gone before you have. That's it. I tell my kids to learn from the mistakes of others, as you will never grow old enough to make them all yourself. Same principle here.

Ed, thanks friend, and well said.

Cheers

Eagle


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## wanemann

Stash said:


> Bottom line - get funding from either the Government or from corporate or other sponsors, or a private philanthropist. There isn't simply enough money to be had solely from members of the general archery community to do anything meaningful with regards to travel funding for international teams.
> 
> How to get Government funding? Elect a socialist leaning government. The Liberals of the '70s were pretty lavish with their sports spending.
> 
> How to get corporate sponsorship? Now, THAT is a good question. You have to demonstrate that sponsoring archers is an advertising medium that will increase the corporation's profits, and the only way to do that is to make archery watchable by the masses. Can't be done, other than an occasional curiosity.
> 
> And that is the basis for the negativity that's been rampant throughout this thread. Most of us who have been negative on this thread are NOT being so out of malice - it's just friendly advice. We have been involved with the sport on the administrative level for a long time and have come to the realization that archery is too small and too boring to become a media darling, and we simply accept that as the way it is. Ed put it perfectly:"It is the reality of the sport we all CHOOSE to participate in."


ok stash, so I may move on, answer me this....
1. was 3dr lying about the italians ? 
2. were the italians lying?
if the answer is no....
3. what are they doing that we as canadians are incapable of doing?
4. did you mean to say "There isn't simply enough money to be had solely from members of the general archery community AT THIS PRESENT TIME to do anything meaningful with regards to travel funding for international teams. 
5. did you also mean to say "We have been involved with the sport on the administrative level for a long time and have come to the realization that archery is too small and too boring to become a media darling" CURRENTLY, WE NEED TO AS A COMMUNITY DOWN TO EACH CLUB HAVE MORE FOCUS ON INNOVATIVE WAYS TO RAM UP THIS SPORT AND DRAW IN NEW PEOPLE. THEN THERE MAY BE POSSIBLE HOPE FOR CHANGE. 

though they are questions 4&5 are your word exactly they carry the same message you intended, but leave room for hope and with that may possibly bring about change some how, some day.


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## Stash

I think you might want to be reminded of another major obstacle we face here in Canada in this matter. 

Comparison to archery in Europe is not really valid. For the most part, European archery follows FITA. People shoot either recurve, compound or to a lesser extent, FITA barebow. 3D is rare, certainly there is very little bowhunter class competition. Government funding for sport is a much higher percentage of the tax revenue than it is in Canada. So, in European countries, thousands and thousands of archers compete in just the 2 main international disciplines, and are interested in supporting their teams. 

Look at the Nimes shoot in France for an example. 1200 shooters and you have to beat hundreds more off with a stick because there's no room for everyone who wants to enter. Repeat in several other countries. And we get all excited about the Mother of All Shoots with 600.

In Canada, dozens of archers compete in dozens of different divisions, and the vast majority of people who shoot bows are hunters with absolutely no interest in competition shooting of any kind, much less supporting teams with their fancy shmancy coloured targets. 

Solution? Convince all the bowhunter/limited/trad/crossbow archers to give up their preferred equipment and trade it in for either Olympic Recurve or Unlimited Compound. Concentrate our "forces" into the 2 main disciplines instead of spreading ourselves out too thin everywhere. 

Look to golf - everyone knows who won the Masters - just one person. Not 33 different Masters Champions in 33 different divisions. Everyone plays the same rules, uses the same equipment. Ditto for all the other "sports" we see on TV. Darts, poker, curling....one person or team wins, and that's what people/viewers want to see.

Wonder why we don't see gun competitions on TV? It's not because people don't shoot guns. The potential audience is 100 times that of archery. But watching gun shooting is even more tedious than archery. Plus, if you think we have lots of different divisions, try listing all the various gun shooting events.

Once again, and hopefully for the last time, excuse the negativity, but keep in mind that I'm actually trying to be helpful to you in suggesting you not waste too much time end energy on this pointless crusade.

I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong.


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## Old_Man

Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it. - Winston Churchill ...


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## CLASSICHUNTER

well I guess from what I have read so far and quotes from winston churchill I was trying to change history but alot out there seem to think it can`t be done...so be it then canada can have its 2 or 3 archers to make history oh that is if they can get to the events.. the old blood here seems to think change can`t be made ,, . too bad .... as they have the knowledge to make the changes and the contacts...


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## Stash

No, you're not trying to CHANGE history - you're trying to repeat it. 

As for us old blood -- no, we DON'T have the knowledge to make the changes and contacts, If we did, we would have made them years ago.

Nobody has said Canadian archers can't "make history" - it's just that they have to do it from their own wallet.


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## Old_Man

Stash said:


> No, you're not trying to CHANGE history - you're trying to repeat it.


Exactly my point. All Ed, Gray Eagle and Stash are trying to do is to save you from taking the trip down the same blind alleys that they've taken themselves, but then again, maybe it's a journey that one has to make for them self before they understand.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Again I ask you to read my posts in full .. I `m for change like I said advertising on shirts in the Olympics sponsorships other than bow manufacturer etc etc etc ... I used fishing and pedaling as examples.. guys don`t give me we are teaching you.. I`m 60 and have had a few years of fund raising that you might not know about.. hows does a 3 day fishing tournament with 1500 entries and 45k worth of prizes sound.. and it was a 1 hour special on tv as well for coverage.. you guys have to think outside the box.. seems a few of you are broken men and women and have given up instead of being positive.. again this whole thread was to get help for our shooters.. yes you guys where on exec that had their hands tied by the looks of it.. And we are appreciative that you did put the hours in.. but in this day and age its time for change as you all have said ... I`ll come up with some assistance and you can thank me later when I hand the cheque to the shooters for travel till then I`m done with this thread...


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## Stash

wanemann said:


> ok stash, so I may move on, answer me this....
> 1. was 3dr lying about the italians ?
> I doubt it - I've known Tim for a long time and he's always been truthful. If that's what he said they told him, I believe him.
> 2. were the italians lying?
> I have no idea. I suspect they may have been boasting and exaggerating a bit, but I have no knowledge of FITARCO's budget.
> if the answer is no....
> 3. what are they doing that we as canadians are incapable of doing?
> Obviously getting more government support
> 4. did you mean to say "There isn't simply enough money to be had solely from members of the general archery community AT THIS PRESENT TIME to do anything meaningful with regards to travel funding for international teams.
> No, I meant what I wrote.
> 5. did you also mean to say "We have been involved with the sport on the administrative level for a long time and have come to the realization that archery is too small and too boring to become a media darling" CURRENTLY, WE NEED TO AS A COMMUNITY DOWN TO EACH CLUB HAVE MORE FOCUS ON INNOVATIVE WAYS TO RAM UP THIS SPORT AND DRAW IN NEW PEOPLE. THEN THERE MAY BE POSSIBLE HOPE FOR CHANGE.
> No, I meant what I wrote.
> though they are questions 4&5 are your word exactly they carry the same message you intended, but leave room for hope and with that may possibly bring about change some how, some day.
> Please have all the hope you want. I won't be holding my breath.


...


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## Xs24-7

I don't want people to have the wrong idea. Support for compound archers has never been higher. In spite of what some have posted, entry fees were paid for every team member to the WC in Italy. A team leader joined the 3-d team, the compound team got a fully funded trip to the WC is Ogden in 2010...so all is not lost...but it will never be a free ride...there has also been occassions when archery Canada has made special arrangements in order to make sure archers can attend events like World Championships...unfortunately that's quickly forgotten by some, and it's easier to join the mob complaining about how they are owed.
This is a topic that goes beyond AT, and perhaps that's why for many of us it's a bit personal. Some of us have had te pleasure of hearing about it for years, from the same people, and it's become tired. I'm sorry that some here may have a negative impression of thing because of how this has gone, but for some of us it's bigger than what's been posted online.


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## cheaplaughs

maybe classichunter could use a list of all the mistakes that were made in the past that led to all the failed attempts to make compound archery better.it would save him alot of time.


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