# Congratulations Coach Lee - Best coach of the year!!!



## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Well done, Coach Lee - congratulations!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Curious what the criteria were and who else was nominated.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Read between the lines here ... The staging/contortions of the wordings are slick. "under Lee's tutelage, Brady ...." Really? Lee spending a lot of time in 2019 with hands on training of Brady's shot? Right. So, Brady ties his indoor world record, wins a world championship for the USA (first one since Rick's third in 1985), set a new outdoor world record, and he doesn't win best male Olympic athlete of the year? But Lee, who presided over the worst placement of USA Olympic archers qualifying for the Olympics' ever (2 spots out of 6) is best coach? And this phrase "With Lee in the coach's box in Lima, Ellison and 15-year-old Casey Kaufold also won gold in the mixed team event ..." they forgot to add "Casey Kaufold, who isn't coached by Coach Lee and won't go near Coach Lee's NTS shooting techniques with a 10-foot pole".

I smell a 'softening up of the area with mortar fire' to foreshadow some kind of eminent announcements concerning women's coaching changes and contract extensions/changes. You see it in politics and the corporate world all the time. Bizarre. 


"National Head Coach KiSik Lee led U.S. archers to a historic year, highlighted by Brady Ellison becoming the first U.S. Olympic style archer to win the world title since 1985. Under Lee’s tutelage, the world No. 1 ranked Ellison became the first man to win five world cup final titles, placing at three world cup stages with two golds and one bronze medal. Additionally, Ellison set a world record of 702/720 in the qualifying stage at the 2019 Pan American Games in Lima, Peru. With Lee in the coach’s box in Lima, Ellison and 15-year-old Casey Kaufhold also won gold in the mixed team event, which will make its Olympic debut in 2020. Coach Lee was named the Best Olympic Coach of the Year and Ellison was honored as a finalist for Best Male Olympic Athlete of the Year."


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

:moviecorn


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> I smell a 'softening up of the area with mortar fire' to foreshadow some kind of eminent announcements concerning women's coaching changes and contract extensions/changes. You see it in politics and the corporate world all the time. Bizarre.


As usual, you are very insightful Larry. Just wait for it.


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## drstack (Feb 9, 2011)

Don't know if you were punning around or not Larry; "...some kind of eminent announcements" (as opposed to imminent) but if you were, Well Played Sir!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

drstack said:


> Don't know if you were punning around or not Larry; "...some kind of eminent announcements" (as opposed to imminent) but if you were, Well Played Sir!


Hah, jokes on me! 

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not that clever - I used the wrong word. Maybe it was the 9am beer ... :darkbeer:


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## calarcher300 (Aug 3, 2016)

It kind of makes me sad seeing all the poking comments and eye rolling after an announcement like this. Whether or not you really like everything about the man can we at least agree that he has dedicated his life to the sport and really does want to help archers do well? I feel we should be able to get excited that a coach from our sport is getting recognition at this high level, no matter which coach it is. The more visibility and positive press our sport gets the more we can grow...just my opinion though.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

calarcher300 said:


> It kind of makes me sad seeing all the poking comments and eye rolling after an announcement like this. Whether or not you really like everything about the man can we at least agree that he has dedicated his life to the sport and really does want to help archers do well? I feel we should be able to get excited that a coach from our sport is getting recognition at this high level, no matter which coach it is. The more visibility and positive press our sport gets the more we can grow...just my opinion though.


i agree with your post except for this part _"and really does want to help archers do well"_. 

His main objective is to promote and force his system on archers. He does not care who does well or not with it. Only that they use it and use nothing else. 

That is not good for the sport. 

You let me know how Catalina fares being forced to change to NTS or leave the RA program and USA. Then tell me he really cares that the archers do well. She was our best and represented us at the Youth Olympics shooting linear. 


Chris


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Curious what the criteria were and who else was nominated.


Yup

Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Careful...there are those(munchkins) that worhip at the altar of the mighty Oz(Lee) and those that peek around the thin veil and see what is really driving things. So not to alienate the many munchkins and Ozanians the respect for the great and mighty Oz (Lee) should be maintained, at least until the day he gets in his balloon and flies away. There are a few who know the truth.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

calarcher300 said:


> It kind of makes me sad seeing all the poking comments and eye rolling after an announcement like this. Whether or not you really like everything about the man can we at least agree that he has *dedicated his life* to the sport and really does want to help archers do well? I feel we should be able to get excited that a coach from our sport is getting recognition at this high level, no matter which coach it is. The more visibility and positive press our sport gets the more we can grow...just my opinion though.


Many of us have dedicated our lives to many causes. Some are even important. The fact that someone has chosen a career as an archery coach does not warrant any more recognition than someone who has "dedicated their lives" as a fireman, teacher, or many other professions. I wish people would quit making it sound like he's donating all his time out of the love for the sport. That's particularly hard to listen to when we all know so many who do truly dedicate their time and talent and own resources helping coach beginning, intermediate and journeyman archers - FOR FREE - who will perhaps someday end up under the tutelage of a professional full-time coach like Lee.

I support Lee's work with the men. However if the winning qualifications were only the results of one athlete who was already a seasoned veteran, it makes me wonder who else was considered, what athletes they worked with, and what the purpose of the award is.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

"His main objective is to promote and force his system on archers. He does not care who does well or not with it. Only that they use it and use nothing else."

To be fair; It was USA Archery that insisted on BEST/NTS as the one true method, we even named it. In the beginning, when coaches (including me) began complaining about having to comply with this one method he said to directly to me, "I just teach archery."


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## calarcher300 (Aug 3, 2016)

Chris, thanks for at least finding some common ground that positivity can come out of the situation, I appreciate that.
I respect your opinion. Maybe you know him better than I do and have understood his mission more clearly...

John I never said he was better than anyone else or that other people don't deserve to be recognized for their work in the sport (or other industries) as well. I would be really happy to see archery talk come together more often to promote the hard work of part time or volunteer coaches to help spread more appreciation and positivity to them as well. Their work is fundamental to the success and growth of our sport and without them I would never have been able to be involved in the sport myself. The more we draw attention to and reinforce positive actions the more people may hopefully be encouraged to do the same. I appreciate and respect that you can acknowledge that he has produced some positive results with the men at least. 

Anyways I didn't want to start any arguments, just hopefully point out that there is still some benefit from the award coming to the archery world in general. But...I have to remember the forum I am on, so I'll stop here.


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## Speedly (Jan 23, 2019)

chrstphr said:


> i agree with your post except for this part _"and really does want to help archers do well"_.
> 
> His main objective is to promote and force his system on archers. He does not care who does well or not with it. Only that they use it and use nothing else.
> 
> ...


Wholeheartedly agreed. I have a friend that went down to train for the Level 4 coaching certification, and part of the requirement is that you have to shoot NTS, whether or not you were trained in NTS, or if it even works for you. I don't care if the archer is doing a headstand on the line, firing the arrows out of their mouth like a mother bird feeds her babies - if the arrows are scoring 10s, that's all that matters.

He went all the way there, spent the week there, and essentially got rejected at the end because of his age. A total ripoff and a scam on Lee's part. I'm told Lee was a flaming jerk the whole time... but you'd better believe that Lee cashed his check, despite not even doing the job.

Kisik Lee can Kisik my (insert your favorite insult here). You don't treat people like that, and you don't steal their money and time.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Boltsmyth said:


> "His main objective is to promote and force his system on archers. He does not care who does well or not with it. Only that they use it and use nothing else."
> 
> To be fair; It was USA Archery that insisted on BEST/NTS as the one true method, we even named it. In the beginning, when coaches (including me) began complaining about having to comply with this one method he said to directly to me, "I just teach archery."


BEST was flawed from the start. And transforming it into NTS made it worse. I have long said USA archery board members dont seem to know what they are doing. I keep waiting for one to actually come from shooting competitive recurve and knowing something about it.

But i know for sure that Lee has personally told archers, either you shoot NTS here at the training center or you can leave now. He has now given this ultimatum to Catalina. 

This is Lee pushing his program. Forcing one method on our best is the worst decision i have seen. 

Lee doesnt teach archery, he promotes Joy Lee and NTS. 

Fortunately the rest of the world understands the form is dangerous and they avoid it, happy to see the USA teams falter. The inner rotation of the shoulder in NTS is injury prone and the rest of the world knows it. Funny how many in the US dont.

dont be surprised as we win less and less olympic spots. The trend has been there for a while. You get what you get. 

But congrats to him winning the Olympic coach award. The USOC is welcome to appreciate him, same as USA Archery, until there is a class action lawsuit from parents on all the injuries his system at the OTC has dealt. Then you will see him go out the door. 

Chris


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

"But i know for sure that Lee has personally told archers, either you shoot NTS here at the training center or you can leave now."

Yes I agree about that. I think we, USA Archery, have created that situation though.


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## cruzern (Apr 21, 2011)

"But i know for sure that Lee has personally told archers, either you shoot NTS here at the training center or you can leave now. He has now given this ultimatum to Catalina.
This is Lee pushing his program. Forcing one method on our best is the worst decision i have seen.
Lee doesnt teach archery, he promotes Joy Lee and NTS." -- chrstphr

Hi Chris, I'm just trying to follow the conversations. 
- Who's Catalina? Is it this one? Catalina Gnoriega https://worldarchery.org/athlete/19424/catalina-noriega
- Who/what is Joy Lee? Are you referring to Joy Lee Archery club in California? One of my friend told me that they teaches a style that is very different from NTS and so I was consfused as to why KSL would be promoting that club.
Thanks for your time.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

cruzern said:


> "But i know for sure that Lee has personally told archers, either you shoot NTS here at the training center or you can leave now. He has now given this ultimatum to Catalina.
> This is Lee pushing his program. Forcing one method on our best is the worst decision i have seen.
> Lee doesnt teach archery, he promotes Joy Lee and NTS." -- chrstphr
> 
> ...


From Joy Lee JOAD Archery club's website ...
"Each academy has at least one NTS certified Lead coach (Level 3 or higher) and highly qualified and experienced assistant coaches. They have all been rigorously trained and selected by the U.S. National Head coach, Kisik Lee to lead the academy."

Pretty sure NTS is the koolaid flavor at Joy Lee.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

calarcher300 said:


> Chris, thanks for at least finding some common ground that positivity can come out of the situation, I appreciate that.
> I respect your opinion. Maybe you know him better than I do and have understood his mission more clearly...
> 
> John I never said he was better than anyone else or that other people don't deserve to be recognized for their work in the sport (or other industries) as well. I would be really happy to see archery talk come together more often to promote the hard work of part time or volunteer coaches to help spread more appreciation and positivity to them as well. Their work is fundamental to the success and growth of our sport and without them I would never have been able to be involved in the sport myself. The more we draw attention to and reinforce positive actions the more people may hopefully be encouraged to do the same. I appreciate and respect that you can acknowledge that he has produced some positive results with the men at least.
> ...


That's fair. I just get tired of hearing the "dedicated his life to" comment for folks who are compensated very well to teach people to play games. 

And nobody can deny the results Lee has had with several male archers. Enough now that have risen to the level of world class that it can only be said his instruction has merit - for men. The data is not in his favor on the women's side, unfortunately.

I was honestly curious what other coaches were considered and what had they accomplished because the statement of recognition speaks to Brady's successful year and that's what I see when I read that.


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## Speedly (Jan 23, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> And nobody can deny the results Lee has had with several male archers.


Considering we've *lost* Olympic spots, I think we can.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Two things I can always count on when I check back into AT, even after several years.

1: I'm gonna bump the shoe thread
2: People are still *****ing about Lee


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Speedly said:


> Considering we've *lost* Olympic spots, I think we can.


Mmm, maybe fair, maybe not. Today is a different time than 15-20 years ago. The whole world has gotten better and the US cannot just assume we will qualify a full team in either gender anymore. My point was more to the level of shooting that male archers NOT named Brady Ellison have reached working under Lee. Jake, in his prime. Jack Williams comes to mind. So does Matt Requa - an archer I've known personally since he was bouncing around college archery. Those guys, and others, have attained a level of shooting that we simply didn't have 15 years ago. I give Lee credit for helping them the way he helped Tim and David in Australia. 

But to your point - it would be easy to argue we have lost spots in the women's side due to a variety of reasons that can only land at Lee's feet as the national head coach, and the one that the most recent women's coach had to report to.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

cruzern said:


> "
> 
> Hi Chris, I'm just trying to follow the conversations.
> - Who's Catalina? Is it this one? Catalina Gnoriega https://worldarchery.org/athlete/19424/catalina-noriega
> ...


Joy Lee is the wife of Kisik Lee. It is their chain of NTS schools. NTS is the basis of their schools. Joy Lee academy is where most of the dream team kids Lee picks come from. Its his farm. 

Catalina Gnoriega is who i am referencing. She is being forced to choose. Change from her winning linear shot to NTS and she can stay an RA, or leave and then she will be forced to go back to Mexico where she has no archery opportunities. Cudos to Lee for ruining another top US young archer who is already shooting great and was getting better. I will take bets she gets worse changing to NTS. Anyone?? anyone? 

Ask Crystal Gavin how far she got using NTS and Lee's instruction when she switched from compound to recurve. Ask her what form she shoots now while in the mix for Olympic trials and is top 8. 

How about Katuna? who tried NTS when Lee first came and shot it for a year to terrible results. Ask her what form she shoots since that debacle. 

I can name archer after archer. 

How about Adam Valera. Top youth archer always top 5, had a bright archery future. Then went to Dream team camps and changed to NTS and now what scores does he shoot? whats his placement now? Not his fault, give a really talented archer a terrible complex archery form, and they will plummet permanently in scores. 

How about Megan Tan. Shooting 640s before her first week of RA program. Forced to change to NTS by Woo. Couldnt break 575 all last year and was removed from the program.
Not to mention she was injured at her first OTC RA trials with a shoulder injury. 

My student Rebecca Hill. Shooting 630s and podiums on Junior USATs. Gets into the RA program, made to switch to NTS by Woo, is injured twice, shoots poorly the rest of the year and now is also out of the RA program. 

Cassidy Lacson, 3 time youth national champ shooting linear. One summer of Dream team camps and she finished almost dead last at Outdoor nationals. Great job dream team coaches. Youre on a roll. 

I could go on and on. I havent publicly for a long time as i didnt want to possibly embarrass any of our youth archers. But i think silence on the issue is helping enable it. I get messages from parents all the time from RAs and dream team kids who were injured and had to take months off or longer. Parents who confided in me and also vented to me. I could name plenty of names of injured kids. No one wants to talk about that. 

Jack Williams was mentioned. Shoots NTS and learned it from Joy Lee. Havent seen anyone mention that he was injured and couldnt even shoot for a while just this past year while at the OTC. 

Brady loves Lee. Great. Lee is responsible for all of Brady's success. Great. Brady is a great archer. But he is one success in a sea of NTS taught archers who are terrible at it and or injured from it. NTS and BEST before it have no track record for producing winning archers. 

Lizard on AT champions Lee and his program, calling it infallible while readily admitting she torn her rotator trying to learn it the first week getting it from OTC coaches. She couldnt shoot for months. 

No one wants to hear the facts. They just want to hear that Lee is awesome and NTS cures target panic. USA archery loves Lee and his program. Great. you get what you get.

I am the hated one who is vocal about NTS being forced and its issues. Im ok with that. But the rest of you can only hold your head in the sand for so long. At some point USA archery will have to come up for air and realize what has been going on for more than a decade. 

Dream team camps that have kids who refuse to change to NTS, bullied and then ignored by Dream team coaches. Be careful in the age of Safesport and bullying. You may find you are out of the sport by bullying kids who decide not to change to NTS. I know several archers who were bullied by some of the coaches and the parents were very pissed in the past few years. 

right now we have one male and one female spot for Tokyo. We are tied with North Korea, Indonesia, Italy, New Zealand, and one spot ahead of Bangledesh, Denmark, Malaysia, Moldova, Spain and Sweden. Those are facts. Countries who barely have an archery program have more spots. Great Britain lost all funding and has two full teams going. India has a two full teams and their archery federation is in a shambles. We have gone from a powerhouse to a hopeful praying for a spot. 

finally, i really dont give a damn about anything NTS and if archers shoot it or not. Personally as a coach, i love it when i see the kids trying to shoot NTS against my students. Why do you think my students make the podiums/ USA teams or win national titles? I hope all my students opponents shoot NTS. I couldnt be happier.

But i do care when our youth get injured from it. And i do care when it damages our sports program for the future. 

I dont have anything against Lee as a person or man. But i do hold him responsible for damaging the US archery program and for the ruination of many of our youth archers. And that would include USA archery boards and athlete reps over the past decade as well who willingly went along. 

I know i am not well liked, but at least i am there for the youth of our sport. 


So congrats to Lee for his award. But it has nothing to do with the USA program aside from Brady's accomplishments. 

Chris


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Chris, I taught in other sport for a short compared to others while and if a kid is injured it is a problem of the teacher. Are you sure the teachers who are teaching NTS and hurt kids know what are they teaching? This is the BIG question for me. I’ve seen some Coaches forcing student’s head in unnatural position instead checking how off were their feet position. I don’t want to get in the hips-spine-head trinity, the relaxation of joints or that use of gravity to draw the bow, but if something is hurting kids, that something is wrong taught due to incomplete understanding of why and how all is linked to form a whole. 
I care less about “my way is better than your way” since the world is full of it, but I care about teacher’s competency. If it hurts kids, get rid of that teacher or be sure the teachers understand what they teach. 

Congrats to Coach Lee, now he can retire if he wants it.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Draven Olary said:


> Chris, I taught in other sport for a short compared to others while and if a kid is injured it is a problem of the teacher. Are you sure the teachers who are teaching NTS and hurt kids know what are they teaching? This is the BIG question for me. I’ve seen some Coaches forcing student’s head in unnatural position instead checking how off were their feet position. I don’t want to get in the hips-spine-head trinity, the relaxation of joints or that use gravity to draw the bow, but if something is hurting kids, that something is wrong taught due to incomplete understanding of why and how all is linked to form a whole.
> I care less about “my way is better than your way” since the world is full of it, but I care about teacher’s competency. If it hurts kids, get rid of that teacher or be sure the teachers understand what they teach.
> 
> Congrats to Coach Lee, now he can retire if he wants it.


Subluxated ribs, shoulder injuries and wrist injuries. All taught by the OTC coaches and Lee. 

At no ones feet but them. 

Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Here's a question I'm curious about (kinda like the never-ending debate of who's most responsible for the Patriots' success the last 19 years - Brady (Tom) or Belichick?) ...

As national head coach of Korea, Lee talks of raking in 8 Olympic gold medals from '84, '88, '92, and '96 Games. But the interesting thing to me is that only one gold was from the men ('88 team gold), and 7 gold medals from the women's side (4 individual gold and 3 team gold). Then he comes to the USA, and the women are nowhere to be found.

How to explain that? Is he an awesome coacher of female archers, and the USA women just don't have it (and lets face it, the USA women were no-shows for a long time before Coach Lee got here)? Or are the Korean women just anomalies of skill and greatness, and a ham sandwich could have brought home those 7 Korean female gold medals? on the men's side, if he's taking ownership in Brady, does he also have to take culpability for the lack of Korean male success under his head coaching? Who gets the credit, the archers or the coach? Who gets the blame, the archers or the coach?

Why did Coach Lee leave Korea? Just time to move on? Did he get the boot for not delivering gold medals for the men? What?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Chris, combining this info with some other topics here, it sounds like bad coaching due to lack of understanding. Can you point toward a case of direct student of KSL hurt during the learning process?

Iksseven, maybe the truth is in the middle. Maybe it was the time to move on and Maybe some language barrier can’t pass a message who’s not necessary for a Woman archer from Korea - it’s normal thinking for her, reflected in a very logical way in execution. 
Try to explain “ use gravity when you draw a bow” to someone who doesn’t have an idea about this concept. Will laugh at you in the friendliest scenario.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Draven Olary said:


> Chris, I taught in other sport for a short compared to others while and if a kid is injured it is a problem of the teacher. Are you sure the teachers who are teaching NTS and hurt kids know what are they teaching? This is the BIG question for me. I’ve seen some Coaches forcing student’s head in unnatural position instead checking how off were their feet position. I don’t want to get in the hips-spine-head trinity, the relaxation of joints or that use of gravity to draw the bow, but if something is hurting kids, that something is wrong taught due to incomplete understanding of why and how all is linked to form a whole.
> I care less about “my way is better than your way” since the world is full of it, but I care about teacher’s competency. If it hurts kids, get rid of that teacher or be sure the teachers understand what they teach.
> 
> Congrats to Coach Lee, now he can retire if he wants it.


Well, Coach Lee is supposed to be the one who's sure of that, isn't he? It's his system, it's his OTC, it's his coaches. As Joy Lee claims on their website "Each academy has at least one NTS certified Lead coach (Level 3 or higher) and highly qualified and experienced assistant coaches. *They have all been rigorously trained and selected by the U.S. National Head coach, Kisik Lee* to lead the academy."


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

In this case it’s on him, even though I know how advertising without requirement to attend X no. of Seminars to get up to date and in depth explanation of what you teach are just smog and shadows. Who was the “Supreme Court” that was supposed to verify all these affirmations? Or make inquiries about those accidents? Any accident during training brings extra fees in insurance in normal world. If the cause of accident was not crystal clear due to explanations given, the things are in a muddy area. Kind of :”I have bad shoulders due to heavy bow” instead “I have bad shoulders due to being stupid and forcing myself to pull what I can’t draw”. And everybody blames heavy bows instead pointing toward people doing stupid things from stupid reasons.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Draven Olary said:


> Chris, combining this info with some other topics here, it sounds like bad coaching due to lack of understanding. Can you point toward a case of direct student of KSL hurt during the learning process?


Lee is very strict on the coaches under him teaching Dream teams and RAs. He has routine seminars with them to make sure they teach exactly what he wants taught. He may not be there exactly at the moment, but they are instructing exactly what he wants them to do. They are coaching his principles and form. 

As i am not there when the injuries happen, i can not say who is exactly there when it happens. Usually i find out about the injuries weeks later. 

Chris


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## tooold (Jul 26, 2015)

lksseven said:


> Here's a question I'm curious about (kinda like the never-ending debate of who's most responsible for the Patriots' success the last 19 years - Brady (Tom) or Belichick?) ...
> 
> As national head coach of Korea, Lee talks of raking in 8 Olympic gold medals from '84, '88, '92, and '96 Games. But the interesting thing to me is that only one gold was from the men ('88 team gold), and 7 gold medals from the women's side (4 individual gold and 3 team gold). Then he comes to the USA, and the women are nowhere to be found.
> 
> ...


This is the part in this whole saga I just don't understand. While he was in Australia, I attended a coaching session at the Australian Institute of Sport in Canberra with Mr Lee. I don't remember anything about this NTS method of shooting.

My question, coming from outside Mr Lee's American context, is whether this NTS method is something he developed since his American arrival. In the videos I've seen, I see no evidence that Simon Fairweather, or any of his team mates, ever shot anything like NTS.

Secondly, as a product of the Korean system stressing biomechanical efficiency, I would have thought that using this system in Korea would not have been tolerated.

Was NTS specifically developed for the "American market"?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tooold said:


> Was NTS specifically developed for the "American market"?


NTS is a child of Lee's BEST method. Lee is a savvy business person and knew he needed something to sell to the Americans who at the time, were so ga-ga over any and all things Korean that they were going to buy the first Korean product they could. And they did. I have always wondered how well vetted Lee was before he was hired, and how many people on the selection committee really understood why he left Korea in the first place.



> Lee is very strict on the coaches under him teaching Dream teams and RAs. He has routine seminars with them to make sure they teach exactly what he wants taught. He may not be there exactly at the moment, but they are instructing exactly what he wants them to do.


Chris, I have been one of those coaches and I can tell you that Lee was continually frustrated that "us coaches" were not teaching his method correctly. And 10 years later that hadn't changed when I went for my L4 cert. He was still complaining about (and openly criticizing) volunteer coaches for what he felt was a lack of understanding of his method. So I have heard him say that the injuries were a result of "us coaches" teaching it wrong. Now, that may be true and it may not be. Ultimately, as you say, the responsibility falls at his feet for teaching the coaches correctly so that the injuries don't happen. I do know that Lee felt pressured to award certifications under the NTS program that he himself didn't want to award. I could see that first hand - the frustration in his face for the position he was put in by USArchery.

I have always maintained that his method is so complicated that very few (if any) coaches will ever be able to understand it from just one or two seminars. I said when I left the JDT program and I still maintain that Lee's BEST and now NTS is a complex method intended for elite athletes and more specifically, strong young men - best taught under the direct supervision of Lee or one of only a handful of other coaches that actually understand it. The data shows that if those conditions are met, there are a number of young men who have successfully used his method to reach the world class level. 

Unfortunately the data also overwhelmingly shows that Lee has no business coaching women, for one reason or another that I don't think most of us fully understand. I talked to a number of coaches and athletes about this over the years, specifically because I was working with top-performing young women archers, many of whom were considering training at the OTC under Lee. So I had reasons to question what I was seeing. I was told over and over again by USArchery staff (not Lee) that they "just haven't found the right women" - that is a direct quote that I heard multiple times from more than one coach who was on the payroll or high up in the JDT staff. Well, at what point do you stop blaming the athletes and start looking at the program? I think USArchery got there a few years ago, which is why Woo was hired. That was the right step and perhaps overdue based on Lee's track record with Australian and American women. 

But now we're back to where we were four years ago. Or perhaps even a little behind where we were. And yet here is Lee gathering awards as the "best coach." That's what is hard to understand from the perspective of someone just looking at the overall program.

A simple question to ask yourself is, if Brady had been injured early in the 2019 season, what work would Lee have done to warrant receiving that award? I think it's a reasonable question.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

tooold said:


> This is the part in this whole saga I just don't understand. While he was in Australia, I attended a coaching session at the Australian Institute of Sport in Canberra with Mr Lee. I don't remember anything about this NTS method of shooting.
> 
> My question, coming from outside Mr Lee's American context, is whether this NTS method is something he developed since his American arrival. In the videos I've seen, I see no evidence that Simon Fairweather, or any of his team mates, ever shot anything like NTS.
> 
> ...


toold,

I don't know when Coach Lee started developing NTS as a shooting technique/set of principles (although I agree that it doesn't seem to have happened until he reached USA shores. Although, if he was tinkering around with it while at Korea, maybe that's why he bounced (or got bounced) in 1996). But he calls himself "the most successful archery coach in the world" and references (worded very artfully) the Korean medals won under his Korea head coaching tenure. I'm just musing over if the goose is good for the gander ... if one is gonna crow about the Korean women's success while he (coincidentally or not?) was there, then doesn't one have to eat some crow regarding the dearth of USA female medals (or even some encouraging progress) won under his tenor here? 

I also found it interesting that Korean women went from no archery at all to Olympic gold (total dominance, really) in 6.5 years (the Korean men took much longer to get the upperhand in men's archery). American women have had 13+ years of NTS training under "the most successful archery coach in the world", with results that have gone from bad to worse. But, to be fair, the American women had already been in the wilderness for a dozen years before Lee got here. In the long line of things that haven't been working for the American women, Coach Lee is just one of many things that ain't working in that area.


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## OneHandClapping (Aug 15, 2019)

Can anyone post a video or set of videos where one could see the contrast between NTS gospel and other methods that have yielded good results such that a newish archer could better appreciate the difference?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

This link presents the NTS at its best: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=271&v=YXiYSmPZKbY&feature=emb_logo


And here is the Korean way: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F68VUs313XQ

If you are too in a hurry for above video, go to 3:43 to see where the difference is. 

For me, there are subtle differences but both are striving for efficiency.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

OneHandClapping said:


> Can anyone post a video or set of videos where one could see the contrast between NTS gospel and other methods that have yielded good results such that a newish archer could better appreciate the difference?


Perhaps the better lens is "deduction". 13 years in, minus Brady, who has to be be considered in large part a "Shakespearean one off", where are 1) the successes? 2) the imitators (the sincerest form of flattery)? Who is having world class success with NTS technique? Where are the hordes of other archers around the world piling in? 

NTS (massively complicated, dozens of steps/parts) sells books and seminars . Hard to show archers Kim Woo Jin's technique and make any money from it - simple, easy to understand, doable for normal strength'd men and women ... Kim Woo Jin 2018 - He doesn’t have the high string arm position at the beginning of his draw. But notice that as he sets up, his front shoulder is reaching toward the target and is in line, and notice how his string hand is completely in front of his bow-side arm pit - he’s able to do that because he’s already released his draw shoulder/scapula to move behind his head/spine, so as he draws, he’s already completely in line about 3-4 inches before he anchors on his jaw. He’s activated his back from the gitgo without the high starting position due to the great flexibility/mobility of his shoulders/back. The important things to remember are that he adheres to the rock solid principles of linear draw - 1) he’s inline linearly and force-wise, and 2) his back is in charge of the draw and the hold from start to finish.
https://youtu.be/1MinzlvqSV0?t=23


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## OneHandClapping (Aug 15, 2019)

Draven Olary said:


> This link presents the NTS at its best:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=271&v=YXiYSmPZKbY&feature=emb_logo
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting those. Both very interesting. Now I just need some live snakes and a place to bungee jump!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Why do people refer to it as "linear draw" to draw a distinction between NTS and non-NTS techniques?
What is "non-linear" about NTS?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Position of the hands when the bow is raised. One has the arrow off the target, the other has the arrow oriented toward the target in the moment of raising the bow.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Draven Olary said:


> Position of the hands when the bow is raised. One has the arrow off the target, the other has the arrow oriented toward the target in the moment of raising the bow.


Let us take a look at this statement.

It seems that the location of the target during the draw is viewed as the determinant of whether a system is linear or non-linear. Now, let us answer these two questions: How does that make a system efficient or not efficient? How does the location of a target (which has no physical bearing on the draw) make a system linear or non-linear?

Anyone?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Here, let me make it simpler for some of you out there -

Suppose we have an imaginary bow that is attached to the target by a taut string, and one draws the bow keeping the nocking point, the bow where the string is attached, and the target in one straight unbroken line, do we call that a linear draw or a non-linear draw?

Then, we compare that to the same setup, but we disregard the direction of the taut string and start drawing it in any manner that we fancy. let's just say: the NON-NTS method. Is this the Linear or Non-linear draw?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

theminoritydude said:


> Let us take a look at this statement.
> 
> It seems that the location of the target during the draw is viewed as the determinant of whether a system is linear or non-linear. Now, let us answer these two questions: How does that make a system efficient or not efficient? How does the location of a target (which has no physical bearing on the draw) make a system linear or non-linear?
> 
> Anyone?


In the above message I said both are efficient. Now, if you want to play words:

- When you draw off the target, your mind is not running in "aiming first" mode. Your focus is internal - on execution- the target is out there, waiting for you. The aiming process is not crescendo, asymptotic-like from the moment your intention to shoot was taken. The arrow offset is actually a result of the natural need to centre the humerus bone into the scapula socket on the path of less strain on tendons - elbows close to horizontal; torso movement and core muscles participating to this somehow circular (on horizontal plane) movement and opening the bow. When the archer hits the anchor from the side of the face, the elbow is back behind the head and in same time the alignment happens. From that moment the archer moves his attention to the target, aims and releases. 
- When you draw "from above" - is the way I would call it and not linear - your most important thing is to have the body parts already aligned, on the path the arrow will go. The aiming process is already started and all the movement the archer is doing is to bring the bow up on an axis that is enhancing his visual relation with the target. The bow is up and instead using the torso to help the archer to open the bow he is using the gravity to centre the humerus in the scapula socket until it hits the right elevation and the alignment. The aiming is a crescendo process, the relation with the target is strengthening already when his arrow touches the blue circle above.

In my interpretation: it is about the aiming process riding the sequence not the execution per-se. This might be one other reason why a lot of "drawing from above" archers have TP - their mind is in "hit the target" mode before even they got at full draw.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

No, I do not doubt that both are striving for (physical) efficiency hence the mention of the implied intention to achieve said outcome. We are in agreement here.

The whole argument of alignment towards the target being part of the whole process of drawing falls apart when you examine the draw in the vertical plane, and take a good look at the angular displacement of the arrow and its intended flight path after the release. There is nothing more “linear” about it than NTS, when you include the vertical plane into the consideration. Also, I believe TP referees strictly to something else, but I guess one could loosely tie it to what you’ve described.

“.....your most important thing is to have the body parts already aligned....”

So why break that alignment at the wrist or draw hand?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The word “Linear” seems to be freely thrown around to describe a draw cycle that is anything but. I’m not the one playing with words here.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

We have to agree first what are the body parts important for alignment then. Feet position, hips and shoulders are for me.

Korean way is all the above are already perpendicular on the target - after that is personal. 
NTS - shoulders are off “line” compared with feet and hips position since the torso movement places the shoulders “on”.

PS I agree that linear it is a forced interpretation, view from airplane kind of thing - no details

“Hinges” don’t count in both cases.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> We have to agree first what are the body parts important for alignment then. Feet position, hips and shoulders are for me.
> 
> *Korean way is all the above are already perpendicular on the target* - after that is personal.
> NTS - shoulders are off “line” since the torso movement places the shoulders “on”.
> ...


Notable examples of chest/shoulders open to the target, not perpendicular to the target (not parallel with the target line) - this requires shoulder rotation during the draw cycle. Take any of these examples and turn their hips open to the target line and you will see that the bow would be pointed to the left of the target line. The main difference is that NTS requires you to twist your torso to bring your shoulders (and bow) into alignment, whereas the Korean method aligns the hips to the target line with the chest/shoulders open, requiring only the chest/shoulders to rotate into proper alignment. The more you cup your wrist (Chang), lesser degree of open.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

From the airplane that’s nothing but not fighting the natural. Refer to lxseven video above to see what they see when it’s referred as “linear”. My take has nothing to do with the execution by itself.
I believe that without knowing “why you do this ?”, we argue on semantics. Win or lose, the argument itself is futile.
PS KSL declared his archers don’t get TP if they use his method. Bravado or reality? Decide by yourself.


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## aavaaz (Jan 11, 2018)

chrstphr said:


> Joy Lee is the wife of Kisik Lee. It is their chain of NTS schools. NTS is the basis of their schools. Joy Lee academy is where most of the dream team kids Lee picks come from. Its his farm.
> 
> Catalina Gnoriega is who i am referencing. She is being forced to choose. Change from her winning linear shot to NTS and she can stay an RA, or leave and then she will be forced to go back to Mexico where she has no archery opportunities. Cudos to Lee for ruining another top US young archer who is already shooting great and was getting better. I will take bets she gets worse changing to NTS. Anyone?? anyone?
> 
> ...


Something is amiss. “Methinks thou doth protest too much” . Could it be that your daughter Rebecca Hill was ejected from RA programme? I was present when she got injured. It had nothing to do with coach Woo much less Coach Lee. Oh the impertinence.... Most remarks to my simple congratulatory post are a testament to your ignorance and lack of knowledge. Hatred is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. You exhibit it in spades.


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