# No more mbr....



## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

announced at the worlds... there will not be an mbr class next year at ibo shoots. the advanced hunter class will be moving to 45 yds with same equipment as they use now...


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*What?*

I missed that, when did they anounce that?


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

i heard a few guys talkin about it sat afternoon but didn't believe it. I guess sometime after the awards, i had a buddy ask ken watkins himself to be sure...


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## Non Control (Dec 30, 2007)

will the hc be moved up to 40 yrds then or will it stay 35


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

i wish they would but i think everything else stays put..


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## jereast12 (Sep 3, 2007)

so do the stab. rules and stuff stay applied... ? or can Ahc use long stabs. now?


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## maineyotekiller (Oct 1, 2005)

Yep, Ken told my wife and I at Nelsonville that MBR or AHC would be going away. I figured it would be AHC since there is no Female AHC but there is FBR. Wonder what else will change?


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## AllTheRage (Apr 29, 2008)

*No more mbr !!!!!*



jereast12 said:


> so do the stab. rules and stuff stay applied... ? or can Ahc use long stabs. now?


I to would like to know the answer to this.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Good. You have to admit that a long stab with fixed pins is a dumb class. It doesn't simulate hunting or target archery. Move to Open if you need a long stab or shoot your 'hunting' rig in AHC out to 40 yards now. There are too many classes in the IBO and that MBR was just silly. I wish they would make camo bows and index finger releases mandatory in AHC to grow the sport to folks that actually have one bow for hunting and target. Good on Ken!


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

*Fyi*



cath8r said:


> Good. You have to admit that a long stab with fixed pins is a dumb class. It doesn't simulate hunting or target archery. Move to Open if you need a long stab or shoot your 'hunting' rig in AHC out to 40 yards now. There are too many classes in the IBO and that MBR was just silly. I wish they would make camo bows and index finger releases mandatory in AHC to grow the sport to folks that actually have one bow for hunting and target. Good on Ken!


MBR was the original IBO class. I wouldn't say any of them are dumb espeacially if you are shooting in them. I don't own a index finger release but I do lot's of bowhunting with a backtension is that silly? If you shoot in Open that's fine but please don't bash other people for using different equipment than you. It makes the world go round.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

This is great to find out AFTER I dumped a couple bills for a stab set-up for MBR class next year....I'll predict the HC will be getting a few more competitors if AHC goes to 45 max.


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## Hittingguru (Oct 1, 2004)

There were approximately 126 shooters registered in AHC at the Worlds this year. There were another approximately 76 shooters in MBR. Let's say for arguments sake that none of the shooters opt for some other class (MSR or MBO), that would be another huge class of shooters. It took my son 6 1/2 hours to shoot 20 targets at the worlds on Friday in MBO. There were over 200 shooters registered in MBO this year. I'm not sure what would be gained by combining the two classes. If MBR only had 15 or 20 shooters, I would agree to eliminate it, but 76 shooters is a good amount. I personally know 3 shooters who shoot SPM rather than MBO just so they won't be on the course for 6 hours.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Love the idea. There are two many classes already. I think there should be 2 classes pins and dial pin. As for 6 hours to shoot 20 targets that is insane. The IBO should be embarrassed. The should have range officials on every course recording each groups time and start imposing penalties.


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## Hittingguru (Oct 1, 2004)

cenochs said:


> Love the idea. There are two many classes already. I think there should be 2 classes pins and dial pin. As for 6 hours to shoot 20 targets that is insane. The IBO should be embarrassed. The should have range officials on every course recording each groups time and start imposing penalties.


We were close enough to all the groups around us to see the group movement. It's not the 2 minute limit to shoot that is the problem- it's all the other wasted time on the course. Here is what happens- 4-5 shooters in a group. Groups sent off in less than 10 minute intervals- walk to the first target. Everyone puts the bows down, puts their chairs down, first shooter up. OK- 8-10 minutes later...everyone picks up their bows, and chairs... walks the 25-45 yards to the target.... put the bow and chair down...look at the arrows...score the arrows...pull the arrows and hand them back to the shooters...pick up the bows and chairs...start to move to the next target...get almost there and that group is not quite done...stay back10-20 yards ...put bows and chairs down and maybe sit down...get up..pick up bow and chair and move to the stake...Start over again. 

If they want to move it quicker- keeps groups to 3 or a max of 4. Keep starting times 15 minutes apart. There is no difference in starting at 10:00 am and finishing at 4:00, or starting at 1:00 and finishing at 4:00. Eliminate the use of chairs on the course by any group other than MCBH (over 60 yrs old) and allow groups to shoot through a slower group, and 2 minute maximum looking for missed shots.


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

so let me see if I got this right.....
the MBR class is being eliminated, but the AHC will be allowed to shoot pins with the over 12" stabilizers?


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

cath8r said:


> Good. You have to admit that a long stab with fixed pins is a dumb class. It doesn't simulate hunting or target archery. Move to Open if you need a long stab or shoot your 'hunting' rig in AHC out to 40 yards now. There are too many classes in the IBO and that MBR was just silly. I wish they would make camo bows and index finger releases mandatory in AHC to grow the sport to folks that actually have one bow for hunting and target. Good on Ken!


and for you to say this is a dumb class just shows how closed minded you are!
I personelly shoot pins better then a scope out to 80 yards NFAA. and like for my bow to be stabil while shooting longer distance. and after reading your post another couple times i don't think saying you're closed minded even come close to cover it.


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

cath8r said:


> Good. You have to admit that a long stab with fixed pins is a dumb class. It doesn't simulate hunting or target archery. Move to Open if you need a long stab or shoot your 'hunting' rig in AHC out to 40 yards now. There are too many classes in the IBO and that MBR was just silly. I wish they would make camo bows and index finger releases mandatory in AHC to grow the sport to folks that actually have one bow for hunting and target. Good on Ken!


I got to side with Jon Shea MBR has been around long before AHC and HC, it was the original pin class, and it wasn't too long ago that no class was allowed long stab. Back then we shot short stab, fixed pins, and out to 50 yards. We were here first. HC was great idea. It gave new comers a place to start and gave guys that had trouble in MBR a place to shoot and not lose a fortune in arrows. My prediction is that if MBR is eliminated AHC will have numbers fall just like MBR did when HC first hit the scene. My guess is that when the AHC guys find out they have to shoot out 45, they'll go back to HC, because if 45 yards was no big deal why wern't they in MBR to begin with?
The bottom line is I don't care what class people shoot, or what what the name is I am going to shoot my pins in no mater what they decide.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Guys remember that the range layout also contributes to the time it takes to shoot 20 targets. Shoot walk down hill to the target, score and pull, walk back up hill retrieve gear then walk 50-75 yards to the next target. Old, fat guys like me sometimes need recover time between targets. One thing I hate the most is to be in the middle of a cross country walk and have an archery tournament break out.

Ok to the original thought of this thread. What is the difference between the three classes? Ten yards, length of stabilizer and money. As stated before MBR is an original class and still has good attendance. Personally I think that AHC should be absorbed by MBR.


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

Reading some of these replies to the tread is the reason alot of folks are going to ASA. It seems who ever barks the loudest gets their way. It's not the chair or somone looking at their arrow the reason it takes 6 hours to shoot 20 targets. If everyone would follow the guidelines it would work great. We are accountable believe it or not. So the reason for taking all day to shoot 20 targets is mine and your fault for not following the rules. I know it's easier to blame something or someone but it's our fault. Don't want to make anyone upset but we need to ensure we follow the tournament guidlines ourselve.


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## 3D bowman (Dec 21, 2003)

I dont have a problem with any of the classes but I do think if there is a change the AHC should be adsorbed by MBR and HC. There are some great shooters in AHC that can compete in MBR and could move there. The rest can go down to HC as some of those HC guys would compete well if they were in AHC. Funny thing is that was the way it was! I believe they made the AHC because of the high # of shooters in the HC class a few years back. Now that they are down they could eliminate AHC to what it was before.


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

I hope this isn't true. Why eliminate the 45 yard class and then push the AHC out to 45? Makes no sense at all. MBR is tough enough with the help of the long stabilizer. I can't see many staying in AHC if this is the case. We'll be right back to huge numbers in HC and seeing scores of 416 put you in about 40th place.


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## fisher (Jan 17, 2008)

*6 hours to shot 20 targets*

thats crazy,instead of having one person shoot at atime put 2 or 3 stakes at the same place,elimanate chairs except srs,limet groups to 3 shooters, catch shooters longer then 2 min. disqualify them,IBO you need to step up to the plate. have a great day.


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## mjgonehunting (Mar 5, 2007)

Has anyone actually CONFIRMED that this is correct?
There is alot of mouths talking,but it sounds like alot of hearsay!


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## proXarchery (Apr 9, 2004)

IT takes 5-6 hrs to shoot 20 every year in my class and it doesnt bother me This year was one of the best,and one of the hardest courses i have ever shot , i go to shoot my bow and have fun . And remember these couses cover some ground they are not lyed out on 50 acres of ground like your home courses , more like 1500 acres. good job ibo and i did not hear that MBR change mentioned .


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Lets face it, the top 10-20 guys in every class could/should move to the next higher class. I knw my first post came off as harsh and didn't exactly say what I meant. I feel the MBR class has grown away from its true intent. With AHC and HC with more people than MBR I think that MBR has overstayed its welcome. I think AHC and Open can absorb the guys, all 76 of them. Sure they will have to change stabs to shoot AHC and sights to shoot Open, well actually no. There is that guy that shoot pins better than a scope from a few posts back.
I think that the IBO should do more to speed things along. Maybe shooting 2 up at the stake?


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

*Mbr*

I heard there was going to be some changes in AHC and MBR is staying the same. Not sure we'll have to wait and see.


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

i went to the IBO site..sent them a message. They've always been good with getting back with me in the past. when i find something out from them i will post it. thier wasn't anything said on thier about the change. but if thier isn't a pins and long stab. class i'll be shooting pins and a 30" stab in MBO that 5-10 yards isn't going to hurt me that bad


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*2 stakes*

When I first started shooting in the IBO there were 2 stakes. I didn't mind it and wouldn't be apposed to having 2 stakes again. Like I said before, I don't care what the class is called, or what the epuipment rules are, I enjoy the sport, so I will shoot reguardless. 
I have to say the idea to create AHC to get the HC numbers down is a move I didn't get. I have nothing against the class or the guys that shoot it, but is the difference between 40 and 45 yards enough to keep all those guys out of MBR? Maybe they should look at other ways to get guys to move up out of HC into MBR? I know if you win you have to move out for a year, maybe there should be a score limit? If you average over a 410 for the triple crown, you might be good enough to come on up to MBR? I don't know I am just spit-ballin. 
Its just I have shot in MBR for so many years I hate to see it go. I guess we will just wait and see. I think I am going to e-mail my state rep and find out what he says.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

I just got off the phone, with a very close friend who happens to be an IBO board member. There is absolutely no truth to this rumor. There are no plans to do away with the class, it hasnt even been talked about.


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

I love how stuff gets thrown into spectulation...that's great to hear tho...i wouldn't be able to compete with the guys in MBO without getting my @$$ handed to me..but like buckmark stated "I just like to shoot"


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

I shot AHC at 1pm and 8am and we moved along perfectly. we were done in under 4 hours, hardly had to wait at all and no one crept up on us. Much better than last year.


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

The IBO will say... "If you don't like it.. go shoot ASA".


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

jwolfe78 said:


> The IBO will say... "If you don't like it.. go shoot ASA".


I seriously doubt anyone that has any clout in the IBO said that. They may not be the most intelligently ran organization but they have to be smarter than that.


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

in Canada at our shoots we have 4 stakes for sanctioned shoots

a cubs stake
a traditional stake
M50 and M60 stake
a a stake for everyone else..

both men and women MBR, MBO shoot from the same stake, most M50 and M60 shooters shoot from those stakes as well, at a local shoot, 2 stakes one for cubs and one for everyone else....

i dont see the need for 12 differnt stakes out there for every single class..the scores will reflect everything..no neeed to put a close stake for someone to shoot a high score to boost their ego...

i find this makes for better shooters


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

jre4192 said:


> I just got off the phone, with a very close friend who happens to be an IBO board member. There is absolutely no truth to this rumor. There are no plans to do away with the class, it hasnt even been talked about.


hmmm....strange. my bud asked ken himself... guess wait and see


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

j82higgs said:


> so let me see if I got this right.....
> the MBR class is being eliminated, but the AHC will be allowed to shoot pins with the over 12" stabilizers?


i heard same equipment as they shoot now. 4 pins and 12" under


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## AllTheRage (Apr 29, 2008)

*No more mbr*

Anyone herd if this is for sure true ? I spoke with Micheal Deck yesterday
and he said he hasn't herd anything about it but he will try to find out 
today . Like a few others I just dumped $500 into sights and stabilization
to shoot MBR .


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Mbr*

Ok, I just got a reply from my IBO state rep, and here is what he had to say. Getting rid of some of the stakes has been discussed, but never eliminating MBR. He said to look for a couple of changes in the hunter class (didn't go into what they might be) and a couple less shooting stakes. So my guess is changing some of the max distances around to get more classes shooting from the same stakes. I say that makes sense, it already looks like a rainbow of stakes at the locals as it is. Now he didn't reall go into what classes will be shooting from how far, all that will be discussed at the next meeting Sept 19th.

Let the speculation on who will shoot from where begin!:wink:


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## AllTheRage (Apr 29, 2008)

*No more MBR*



buckmark1 said:


> Ok, I just got a reply from my IBO state rep, and here is what he had to say. Getting rid of some of the stakes has been discussed, but never eliminating MBR. He said to look for a couple of changes in the hunter class (didn't go into what they might be) and a couple less shooting stakes. So my guess is changing some of the max distances around to get more classes shooting from the same stakes. I say that makes sense, it already looks like a rainbow of stakes at the locals as it is. Now he didn't reall go into what classes will be shooting from how far, all that will be discussed at the next meeting Sept 19th.
> 
> Let the speculation on who will shoot from where begin!:wink:


Thanks buckmark1 for the info.
Chris


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

Hittingguru said:


> There were approximately 126 shooters registered in AHC at the Worlds this year. There were another approximately 76 shooters in MBR. Let's say for arguments sake that none of the shooters opt for some other class (MSR or MBO), that would be another huge class of shooters. It took my son 6 1/2 hours to shoot 20 targets at the worlds on Friday in MBO. There were over 200 shooters registered in MBO this year. I'm not sure what would be gained by combining the two classes. If MBR only had 15 or 20 shooters, I would agree to eliminate it, but 76 shooters is a good amount. I personally know 3 shooters who shoot SPM rather than MBO just so they won't be on the course for 6 hours.



In 2002, at Bedford, there were 444 shooters in MBO. It didn't take as long to shoot 10 or 20 back then as it does now. 200 shooters on a single course should be easy!! The numbers of shooters isn't the driving factor in the length of time it takes to shoot a course. It's the disregard for the time rules that have been taken advantage of more and more of as the years go on and on. If this trend keeps up, it's going to end up being even more ridiculous on the waits. 

I, as a course administrator, would really hate seeing any of the classes get shortened to the HC stake. The HC guys are already the death of new targets. Those guys punish the eleven rings! We have enough compounds at the 35 yard stake as it is. That being said though, I'm all for setting less stakes, six is a far cry from when we started out with three.


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

Ohio 3der makes a point. When I first started shooting 3-D's in the 90's (pre-HC) there were over 400 shooters in MBR at the nationals. We didn't have trouble getting trough a course in a timely manner. In fact the majority of shoots I have attended over the years have gone smoothly. I did see some LONG back-ups when I shot in MBO, but those shooters; myself included, took a little more time getting a number and setting our sight. Now I didn't take as long to do that as others I shot with, but its the nature of the class. I personally would love to see more guys move up from HC or AHC into MBR. There are some very good shooters in those classes, and I enjoy the competition. (It also puts more $$ in the pot)


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

Yep, it would put more money in the pot, but the shooters will never see it! Most ridiculous payouts in 3D!


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

I could see them moving AHC back to 45. That's the only class currently shooting from the red, right? That would eliminate one stake.

Or maybe HC will move from 35 back to 40 in an attempt to bring some of the insanely high scores down? I could see that happening.


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## X-SHOOTER (Feb 9, 2005)

JPE said:


> I could see them moving AHC back to 45. That's the only class currently shooting from the red, right? That would eliminate one stake.
> 
> Or maybe HC will move from 35 back to 40 in an attempt to bring some of the insanely high scores down? I could see that happening.


It doesn't matter what the scores are if the same people still shoot that class then the same shooters will still win!


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Green*

How many classes shoot from the Green stake? I know MBR and MSR do, are there any others? I am too lazy to look it up. 
I don't want everybody to get fired up, but the rep did ask me how I would like shooting out to 50. If MBR and MSR go to 50 would that eleminate he green? Or is there another class I am forgetting?


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

I think female open, master's class bowhunters, and youth open shoot from the green also. Crossbows also shoot from the green stake, if we had any of those.


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Youth*

I shot with some youths at Bedford and their stake was always in front of mine. Is that YMR 12-14 thats shoots closer? I guess YMR 15-17 shoot green then?
As far as the others go (x-bow, FBO, & Masters) go I say move them all back to 50, what the heck make everybody work for those pints.:wink:


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## FDL (Sep 7, 2008)

Shoots from Green Stake
YMR 15-17
FBO
MBR
FBR
MBF
MSR
MCBH
X-Bow


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

YMR 15-17 shoot the green stake.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

If they move AHC back to the green stake, I'm not sure how many would shoot it. I would most likely throw on the better stabs, add a pin or 2 to my sights and shoot MBR. Not really sure why they would have 2 classes.


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## RIDGE_RUNNER91 (Feb 21, 2005)

I'm sick of all this.............. I'm buying a recurve and a BUNCH of arrows. :wink:


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## Hittingguru (Oct 1, 2004)

FDL said:


> Shoots from Green Stake
> YMR 15-17
> FBO
> MBR
> ...


Add FSR to that as well.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

RIDGE_RUNNER91 said:


> I'm sick of all this.............. I'm buying a recurve and a BUNCH of arrows. :wink:


Dont do that! Lets just shoot field archery at CCFSA!


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

Looks like they are going to mix ahc, mbr, and mbo all in the same class.


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

bow-legged said:


> Dont do that! Lets just shoot field archery at CCFSA!


First FIELD tournament at CCFSA is THIS SUNDAY, everyone is invited. Shotgun start at 10:00am, cost is only $5!!!!!! 

For more details, shoot me an email! 

Jeremiah


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## Supershark (Dec 14, 2004)

jwolfe78 said:


> Looks like they are going to mix ahc, mbr, and mbo all in the same class.


where did you find that at?


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## AllTheRage (Apr 29, 2008)

*What ?*



jwolfe78 said:


> Looks like they are going to mix ahc, mbr, and mbo all in the same class.


Who did you speak with and PM me with the contact # , Thanks


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## Judy4 (Jan 31, 2003)

I figure I better get in here before this gets any sillier.
I do the agenda for the IBO Board meetings and getting rid of MBR is not on it.

Judy
IBO


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

how bout changes....


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

would luv for things to stay the same as they are now, thats just not what i'm hearin. if i hadn't heard scuttlebuzz from so many people at the worlds i would have ignored it...


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

Judy4 said:


> I figure I better get in here before this gets any sillier.
> I do the agenda for the IBO Board meetings and getting rid of MBR is not on it.
> 
> Judy
> IBO


Where can IBO members find a copy of the agenda or copies of the meeting minutes? Are they on the website somewhere, or could they be put there?


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## j82higgs (Feb 21, 2009)

Judy4 said:


> I figure I better get in here before this gets any sillier.
> I do the agenda for the IBO Board meetings and getting rid of MBR is not on it.
> 
> Judy
> IBO


thanks Judy, that's good to hear...


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## mjgonehunting (Mar 5, 2007)

As usual in on a BB type format,NOONE seems to read all of the posts!
It has been posted above ,by people in the know,*THERE IS NO SUCH CHANGE ON IBO's AGENDA!!!!*


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

*My son shot youth and it only took him aprox 3 1/2 hours both days*



proXarchery said:


> IT takes 5-6 hrs to shoot 20 every year in my class and it doesnt bother me This year was one of the best,and one of the hardest courses i have ever shot , i go to shoot my bow and have fun . And remember these couses cover some ground they are not lyed out on 50 acres of ground like your home courses , more like 1500 acres. good job ibo and i did not hear that MBR change mentioned .


About an hour and a half in the championship round. Great Set up and well organized event in my opinion...What a beautiful place to have a shoot...

Met a lot of very nice people


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## baird794 (Dec 2, 2006)

cath8r said:


> Good. You have to admit that a long stab with fixed pins is a dumb class. It doesn't simulate hunting or target archery. Move to Open if you need a long stab or shoot your 'hunting' rig in AHC out to 40 yards now. There are too many classes in the IBO and that MBR was just silly. I wish they would make camo bows and index finger releases mandatory in AHC to grow the sport to folks that actually have one bow for hunting and target. Good on Ken!


that's the dumbest thing i have ever heard. you're are target shooting so what makes the diff if u use a colored bow or back tension? just if u r wondering no i don't use a back tension, but i no a lot of guys use them hunting so why can't they use in the hunter classes.. and a colored bow? is that gonna make a person shoot better. I think NOT


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Ohio_3Der said:


> I think female open, master's class bowhunters, and youth open shoot from the green also. Crossbows also shoot from the green stake, if we had any of those.


I'm not familiar with that class in IBO. What are the rules for it?


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Mbr*

Basiclly just like MBO (open class) but we use fixed pins instead of a scope. We can't move our sights once we start scoring, and our max distance is 45 yards. We can have small vanes, glue in pionts, and long stabilizers. 

It was the original pin w/release class before the various hunter classes.


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## buckmark1 (Mar 18, 2004)

*Forgot..*

to mention masters class. Same as seniors, just older.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

buckmark1 said:


> to mention masters class. Same as seniors, just older.


Not to beat a dead horse, but I can't find mention of a masters class in IBO rules and regs. Can you help me out here and point me to the page, section, whatever that describes the class? I know there's a masters class in NFAA.


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## FDL (Sep 7, 2008)

*Master Class*



carlosii said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but I can't find mention of a masters class in IBO rules and regs. Can you help me out here and point me to the page, section, whatever that describes the class? I know there's a masters class in NFAA.


IBO calls it MCBH on their website


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## baird794 (Dec 2, 2006)

carlosii said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but I can't find mention of a masters class in IBO rules and regs. Can you help me out here and point me to the page, section, whatever that describes the class? I know there's a masters class in NFAA.


its called mcbh


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## Judy4 (Jan 31, 2003)

Meeting is over! No change with MBR!
All rule changes, clarifications, etc. will be posted soon on the IBO website real soon.

Judy


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## NY911 (Dec 12, 2004)

Judy4 said:


> Meeting is over! No change with MBR!
> All rule changes, clarifications, etc. will be posted soon on the IBO website real soon.
> 
> Judy



Where will the World's be at?


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## Judy4 (Jan 31, 2003)

We will announce that real soon also. 

Judy


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