# rick welch shoots 3d vid



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

The guy is a great shot, no doubt about that. Sign me up for his class too!


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

His release looks quite odd to me. Maybe doesn't look so odd in real time


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

guyver said:


> His release looks quite odd to me. Maybe doesn't look so odd in real time


No doubt about it. Rick's swing out release is not something people should copy. For him it is just something that happens *after* his buttery soft release. For anyone else it would lead to awful plucking. It is just another example of an idiosyncrasy, and why you can't just look at a top archer and assume that copying their style will give you the same results. I don't think he teaches people to swing their forearm out the way he does.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

So much back tension his arm explodes!!!! LOL I love watching him shoot


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

The first time I have seen him shoot boy is he great shot but I don't think it's his release . I saw three differant releases all of which hit the middle . but his bow arm I am thinkin thats what seperates the men from the boys. and he is a cut above. don't get me wrong I am not picking his form apart. but if you don't have a good bow arm I don't care how good your aiming system or your realease is you are not hitting the middle. 
Gary


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

2413gary said:


> The first time I have seen him shoot boy is he great shot but I don't think it's his release . I saw three differant releases all of which hit the middle . but his bow arm I am thinkin thats what seperates the men from the boys. and he is a cut above. don't get me wrong I am not picking his form apart. but if you don't have a good bow arm I don't care how good your aiming system or your realease is you are not hitting the middle.
> Gary


yeah you are right about the bow arm no doubt about it . all the top dogs have a steady consistant bow arm and they preach that. one thing I like most about guys like Rick and Sharp is their simplistic aproach, this is suppose to be easy and fun useing our natural god given ability. I bought vipers book on how to shoot a couple years ago and at times it started to give me a headache,( no offense to viper ofcourse). is just a little more then I wanted to know I guess. both Rick and guys like Sharp on here pick a spot and shoot and they shoot with authority especially Sharp. Its nice to see how others do it and that you dont need supernatural ability.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> I was searching around for good utube videos of purely instinctive shooters and found this one on Rick Welch. what amazes me the most about guys like Rick and sharpbroadhead is their ability to interpret and calculate ( subconsciously or not ) differences in distances. neither of them are useing aiming methods .


This opinion will surely upset some people but it's an opinion that is NOT coming from ANY alterior motives other than to share what I've learned studing and researching topics like these for my job.

What Rick and Sharp both describe as their aiming technique is NO different than what many experienced Gap shooters do and even archers who use sights.

Their aiming technique is NOT purely Instinctive as the name applies to a specific aiming technique.

It's really no different than when an archer just uses one pin and uses it for every distance they will typically shoot in.

When an archer sets up their bow and makes adjustments to their form to get the arrow point closer to the target...it's not much different than having a single 60yrds. sight pin and readjusting it up to place it on target for a 30yrds. target. The only real difference is...instead of a mechanical adjustable device on the bow...the archer uses the arrow and makes adjustments to their form and how they hold the string.

Here is a vid of how Ricky explains the sight picture of an Instinctive shooter and an archer using the arrow. Again...what he describes is no different than how many experienced Gap shooters aim.

There is a difference between how they shoot and how an archer shoots who is aiming purely or totally Instinctively as the name applies to an aiming technique.

There abilities with a bow should be commended and appreciated...just as ANY archer who reaches that level.

Just be careful about convincing yourself that their aiming technique is any different than how an experienced Gap shooter aims.

If you want to study the techniques of an archer who aims totally Instinctively....research Kassai Lajos.

Ray :shade:


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Oh boy, Ray! You're in for it now. :^)


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I think that Ray said gappers are shooting instinctively


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

:darkbeer:let me get another and start the popcorn.....it's fixin'ta get nasty up in here.....


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's some clips, that I personally filmed. Some awesome shooting for sure! This is a great memory! Pick the method that works best for you, and perfect it. Most important have fun! :wink:


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

I don't wish to be disrespectful to Mr Welsh, but, non of those shots are what you could describe as "challenging".


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

what i noticed was it appears the window size on his risers seem on the small side..and i bet that helps...a lot.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Goes to show, some folks just have talent. He is hunched over, and that ***follow-through makes me want to cry. I nominate Rick for the Jim Furyk award.

*** I take Warbow's word for it that he has a buttery release.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> *** I take Warbow's word for it that he has a buttery release.



He MUST have, no matter what he does "after" the release or he couldn't shoot like that, huh? I don't care how he does it... it's always a pleasure just watching him do it. :^)


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I would love to spend some time with Rick and do some shooting


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> what i noticed was it appears the window size on his risers seem on the small side..and i bet that helps...a lot.


I LOVE a small window.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Rick shoots superbly, I know, but the first impression on seeing the video would be misleading. I did see a few times when he actually moved his string arm forward before releasing the arrow. Then, there's the flying string hand. However, by the time he starts flinging his arm, the string is gone, and that looked pretty consistent. Maybe a habit for the rest of us to avoid, but it doesn't seem to be a detriment for him. Despite the symptoms, what he's doing that actually affects the arrow flight seems to be working quite consistently.

Not to dig into Rick, but I think this illustrates an important principle. There is what we strive to do, there is what we think we do, and there is what happens. He certainly found what works best for him, but I wouldn't presume to think that i could get away emulating that with any success.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> He MUST have, no matter what he does "after" the release or he couldn't shoot like that, huh? I don't care how he does it... it's always a pleasure just watching him do it. :^)


Look at Jim Furyk. Not big on distance but one of the most deadly golfers in the world; and with that figure eight backswing. There are those guys that just know how to hit the spot.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

waiting4fall said:


> Some awesome shooting for sure!


:thumbs_up



waiting4fall said:


> Pick the method that works best for you, and perfect it. Most important have fun! :wink:


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> I think that Ray said gappers are shooting instinctively


:doh:...LOL....NO, NO, NO! :wink:

But I do believe aspects of their aiming are very instinctive aiming like...but NOT totally or purely Instinctive as in how Kassai aims.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I don't care how he does it... it's always a pleasure just watching him do it. :^)


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> what i noticed was it appears the window size on his risers seem on the small side..and i bet that helps...a lot.


It can....especially if you think about the sight window as a partial frame or aperture.

Generally speaking....the smaller the aperture the more precise a shooter can aim....as long as the shooter can see the target.

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken......where are your comments on this thread?????

Dewayne


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

vabowdog said:


> Ken......where are your comments on this thread?????
> 
> Dewayne


That blood you see at the bottom of the screen is from Ken biting his tongue REMARKABLE self control if you ask me


Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> Ken......where are your comments on this thread?????
> 
> Dewayne





Matt_Potter said:


> That blood you see at the bottom of the screen is from Ken biting his tongue REMARKABLE self control if you ask me
> 
> 
> Matt


not the case gents...in the "To Bait Or Not To Bait" thread he signed off saying he was taking the kids camping or sump'in...for the weekend...hope he doesn't run into a PETA convention or anything...cause he mentioned sump'in 'bout a dutch oven and venison stew too. :laugh:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> He MUST have, no matter what he does "after" the release or he couldn't shoot like that, huh? I don't care how he does it... it's always a pleasure just watching him do it. :^)


Yeah, that is my thinking. The *results* say super smooth release, even if his form is in the "absolutely do not copy" category,

While it doesn't seem to be a big problem for Rick's teaching (AFIK) some talented archers mistake their idiosyncrasies for fundamentals. Knowing which is which is a key difference between a good archer and a good archer who can teach.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Yewselfbow said:


> I don't wish to be disrespectful to Mr Welsh, but, non of those shots are what you could describe as "challenging".


You're kidding, right?


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

reddogge said:


> You're kidding, right?



Yeah, I’m sure he was, with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Those shots (according to the title of the video) were from 35 to 75 yards, so challenging doesn’t begin to describe how difficult it would be for almost “all” of us to make those shots.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Yewselfbow said:


> I don't wish to be disrespectful to Mr Welsh, but, non of those shots are what you could describe as "challenging".


Well sir, that would be my fault. I am the one who planned most of the shots the I filmed Rick shoot. At the time I actually thought they would be very good shots to demonstrate Ricks exceptional accuracy and shooting ability. Please keep in mind that it was my very first time ever being involved in such an endeavor. 

Despite the accolades that still come in from across the globe, I realize that you just can't please everyone. Please accept my sincere appology that your expectations weren't met. Just know that I did the best I could with the knowledge/skills I had at that time. All the best- Dave Mullins.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Yeah, I’m sure he was, with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Those shots (according to the title of the video) were from 35 to 75 yards, so challenging doesn’t begin to describe how difficult it would be for almost “all” of us to make those shots.


What impressed me the most...was that on many of those longer shots...Ricky's hand and bow were either covering the target or above it based on pausing the video and drawing a straight line from the dominant eye to the target to try and see what his direct line of sight was.

It's VERY HARD to be that accurate at those distances like that unless he had a secondary aiming reference above the target he would place his arrow tip on or some other aiming reference.

Ray :shade:

PS. I thought you did a good job filming that, waitingforfall! :thumbs_up


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Any chance someone could post Rick shooting in real time, not slow motion? I'd like to see that for a change.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Sure looks like he colapses right at release - wonder why he does not shoot indoors, good as he is he should be right up there with the best of the best. Indoors would/could be a great venue to promote Trad shooting. Vegas and Nationals draw quite a few shooters and spectators.


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

centershot said:


> Sure looks like he colapses right at release - wonder why he does not shoot indoors, good as he is he should be right up there with the best of the best. Indoors would/could be a great venue to promote Trad shooting. Vegas and Nationals draw quite a few shooters and spectators.


Ive never met Rick Welch....but, he just don't come across as the indoor type. He is a GREAT SHOT though, no matter how he aims....HE GETS IT DONE. I just bought Accuracy Factory 3 and watched it, good vid, but I wish it was a little more "Technical" on bow set up.....I (my opinion) think that is one of the most overlooked aspects of archery- thats trad and compounds.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

Yewselfbow said:


> I don't wish to be disrespectful to Mr Welsh, but, non of those shots are what you could describe as "challenging".


lol good one


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

onlyaspike said:


> Ive never met Rick Welch....but, he just don't come across as the indoor type. He is a GREAT SHOT though, no matter how he aims....HE GETS IT DONE. I just bought Accuracy Factory 3 and watched it, good vid, but I wish it was a little more "Technical" on bow set up.....I (my opinion) think that is one of the most overlooked aspects of archery- thats trad and compounds.


That information is taught, in great detail, only at Rick's shooting school. He actually spends a great deal of time showing/teaching the student exactly what to do and how to setup the bow. Arrow setup is also covered in great detail, at the shooting school. Each setup is customized to the individual & the bow. There is no one size fits all when it comes to how Rick teaches bow setup. It's truly a individual, custom fitted process.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

That's the first time I've really watched Him shoot. As far as shooting form goes, he's no Larry Yien is he but he knows how to find the kill zones that's for sure.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :doh:...LOL....NO, NO, NO! :wink:
> 
> But I do believe aspects of their aiming are very instinctive aiming like...but NOT totally or purely Instinctive as in how Kassai aims.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Come on Ray, you know it's true:devil:

I'm just joking around. It's all a matter of definition. Personally, I prefer to call those shooters what they are- subconscious shooters. Instinctive, gap, doesn't matter- if you're letting your subconscious mind do the aiming then it's close enough. I would also call the type of instinctive shooters you refer to as "prioperceptive" (please correct that, I know I used the wrong word) shooters. 

But hey, that's me, and it doesn't matter nearly as much as practicing and developing the confidence and consistency to shoot as well as Mr. Welch!!!


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

waiting4fall said:


> That information is taught, in great detail, only at Rick's shooting school. He actually spends a great deal of time showing/teaching the student exactly what to do and how to setup the bow. Arrow setup is also covered in great detail, at the shooting school. Each setup is customized to the individual & the bow. There is no one size fits all when it comes to how Rick teaches bow setup. It's truly a individual, custom fitted process.


Ya, I figured it would be a little more informative to actually attend his class, I just thought the video was a little "lacking" in that area. I trully believe everyone should learn the correct way to set-up there bow for themselves...it'd help alot of folks out in the long run. Rick is a great shot for sure and Im sure he's a very good instructor.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> It's all a matter of definition.


It really is :wink: which is one of the reasons why Instinctive Aiming can be so contraversial. There are just enough different definitions and ways to try and understand it that it can make it kind of confusing for some people.



kegan said:


> I would also call the type of instinctive shooters you refer to as "prioperceptive" (please correct that, I know I used the wrong word) shooters.


That's basically correct...you just didn't spell it correctly.

It's proprioceptive.

As archers...we all use proprioception to some degree or another...but it's the archers who aim purely or totally Instinctively who respond to the target as a reflex reaction at a subconscoius/unconscious level to what they see, who rely on it most.

The only thing they are basically doing consciously is focusing on the target and deciding when to draw their bow. 

It's quite a bit different than what an archer does while holding anchor and adjusts their sight picture. When an archer does that...there generally is a level of conscious awareness even though it's very low that is still involved with recognizing their aiming references...such as an archer placing their aiming reference whether it's the arrow or a pin sight close to where they think they need it to be and than letting it float around that spot until it feels right.

When an archer thinks about a target's distance as close, short, medium, far or long...they are still consciously thinking about distance. They just aren't totally analyzing it to the nearest foot or yard consciously. The same principles apply to aiming references and how they relate to the target.

This is why speed of execution is important for an archer trying to aim TOTALLY or PURELY Instinctively.

The longer an archer holds anchor and adjusts their sight picture...the more consciously aware they become of everything within their sight picture...ESPECIALLY their aiming references.

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks for correcting me, I knew that I was way off on spelling. Too many definitions, they all work- well- when we find the right one for us. Just have to work with it some 

I like to shoot instinctive gap face walking. I just need to practice more!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Thanks for correcting me, I knew that I was way off on spelling.


LOL...it's kind of ironic that I'm correcting your spelling because I'm known for being a TERRIBLE speller :wink:



kegan said:


> I like to shoot instinctive gap face walking. I just need to practice more!


Me too! LOL...most of us...if not all of us...need to practice more...or at least practice smarter :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> what i noticed was it appears the window size on his risers seem on the small side..and i bet that helps...a lot.


Funny that, him being the bowyer and all.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Simple - he sizes the window instinctively.


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## tradshooter ed (Dec 18, 2011)

Does rick welch shoot double nock on string or not








waiting4fall said:


> Well sir, that would be my fault. I am the one who planned most of the shots the I filmed Rick shoot. At the time I actually thought they would be very good shots to demonstrate Ricks exceptional accuracy and shooting ability. Please keep in mind that it was my very first time ever being involved in such an endeavor.
> 
> Despite the accolades that still come in from across the globe, I realize that you just can't please everyone. Please accept my sincere appology that your expectations weren't met. Just know that I did the best I could with the knowledge/skills I had at that time. All the best- Dave Mullins.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> That information is taught, in great detail, only at Rick's shooting school. He actually spends a great deal of time showing/teaching the student exactly what to do and how to setup the bow. Arrow setup is also covered in great detail, at the shooting school. Each setup is customized to the individual & the bow. There is no one size fits all when it comes to how Rick teaches bow setup. It's truly a individual, custom fitted process.


Not everybody can go to his shooting school. Presumably the videos are for such people. And everybody needs to set up their bow. So it seems like he should to a video on bow set up--he can't set up everybody's bow in person. And if he's *selling* his videos they should be more than and advertisement for his school.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Not everybody can go to his shooting school. Presumably the videos are for such people. And everybody needs to set up their bow. So it seems like he should to a video on bow set up--he can't set up everybody's bow in person. And if he's *selling* his videos they should be more than and advertisement for his school.


Rick Welch 1-501-821-3791 Give him a call & share your suggestion with him, bro. Tell him Dave Mullins sent ya. Be sure to share his response to you, with all of us here. Have a great day, my friend. :wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

yea, yea - I was camping - and come back to see Ray up to the same ole stuff. It gets old - personally - I think guys are jealous that there actually are instinctive shooters who are accurate - so they come up with all sorts of "stuff" to claim we are not aiming the way we know we are aiming. If anyone wants to take Ray's or anyone elses word on how I aim or how Rick says he aims over the word of the actual shooter - well - what can ya do - all I know is Rick has certainly proven himself on the range and in the field and I have done my best to do so as well - we both shoot instinctively - totally instinctively -and if Ray does not wish to believe that - there is nothing I can do - and if guys are foolish enough to believe him - too bad for them - they are missing out on a chance to become truly great instinctive shots.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> yea, yea - I was camping - and come back to see Ray up to the same ole stuff. It gets old - personally - I think guys are jealous that there actually are instinctive shooters who are accurate - so they come up with all sorts of "stuff" to claim we are not aiming the way we know we are aiming. If anyone wants to take Ray's or anyone elses word on how I aim or how Rick says he aims over the word of the actual shooter - well - what can ya do - all I know is Rick has certainly proven himself on the range and in the field and I have done my best to do so as well - we both shoot instinctively - totally instinctively -and if Ray does not wish to believe that - there is nothing I can do - and if guys are foolish enough to believe him - too bad for them - they are missing out on a chance to become truly great instinctive shots.


wow Ken!....like the new attitude...sounds like the weekend camp'in trip done ya some good!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> and if Ray does not wish to believe that - there is nothing I can do - and if guys are foolish enough to believe him - too bad for them


There is definitely something you could do...shoot fluidly as a reflex response to the target as a pitcher throws a ball. If you can do that...I will than believe you are aiming TOTALLY instinctively as Kassai does. 

Until than I and a few others here will always believe that you are aiming no differently than how many experienced Gap shooters already aim...especially after your coach explained his view on what he believes Instinctive aiming is in his video.

The sad thing is.... you consistently take most if not all disagreements personally and than begin to tell everyone how foolish or stupid they are if they disagree with you.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There is definitely something you could do...shoot fluidly as a reflex response to the target as a pitcher throws a ball. If you can do that...I will than believe you are aiming TOTALLY instinctively as Kassai does.
> 
> Until than I and a few others here will always believe that you are aiming no differently than how many experienced Gap shooters already aim...especially after your coach explained his view on what he believes Instinctive aiming is in his video.
> 
> ...


Ray...in no means to equate myself with the master but...in your opinion is this shooting fluid and instinctive?...or just a mess! :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Ray...in no means to equate myself with the master but...in your opinion is this shooting fluid and instinctive?...or just a mess! :laugh:


Yes...in my opinion...you were aiming Instinctively based on what I saw. 

Was it a mess...No...but I could see where some improvement could be made to make your form more consistent..but it's hard to argue with the results if your goal is to be able to make a kill shot at that distance with that aiming technique.

I basically saw 5 dead deer with those shots...as long as you didn't spook them with all that movement.

My same opinion also applies to Ricky's release. I don't care what an archer's form looks like....as long as it is consistent and achieves the desired results.

Ray :shade:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Jealousy seldom is the reason for differences of opinions.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

SteveB said:


> Jealousy seldom is the reason for differences of opinions.


That's for sure....but it must somehow make some people feel better thinking that. It's kind of like stroking their ego at the same time they're having a disagreement.

Heaven forbid that someone could possibly disagree with someone else based on their personal education and research.

Ray :shade:


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

good going jinks, I can not shoot without stopping at anchor. I have tried and failed miserably.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I would like to see that from side on, it looks like you are half drawing and snap shooting to me. As for instinctive, again it seems to me like you were quickly calculating distance and bow arm height before you drew making that a form of gapping IMHO.





JINKSTER said:


> Ray...in no means to equate myself with the master but...in your opinion is this shooting fluid and instinctive?...or just a mess! :laugh:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> I would like to see that from side on, it looks like you are half drawing and snap shooting to me. As for instinctive, again it seems to me like you were quickly calculating distance and bow arm height before you drew making that a form of gapping IMHO.


Bigjono..snap-shooting?..you betcha..."quickly calculating distance and bow arm height before you drew"...that's sorts comical right there (or maybe you didnt have your speakers on) as i mentioned in the vid that the distance was..."a healthy 10 yards"...but i will say this...i was "visualizing the line of the arrow" through the air as i drew..but as far as 1/2 drawing?...unt-uh...and in every one of those shots the string left my fingers when it was approx. adjacent to my jawbone..i took a snapshot of the 2nd shot just before the string left my fingers...notice how my bow is canted, where my stringhand is in relation to my face and?...look at the black lower string puff...it's almost up against my side...cause my release happens when the lower 1/2 of the string actually touchs my side..and much of this are things i didnt even know until i reviewed the vid in slo-mo..which is why i do so much videoing of myself shooting...i use it as a training aid...and when something notable pops out to me?...i post it up for opinions...archers helping archers...right? L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Brianlocal3 said:


> good going jinks, I can not shoot without stopping at anchor. I have tried and failed miserably.


Well?...maybe you can...it just takes lotsa practice but if ya really wanna blow your mind?..in a way that's like a parallel universe as compared to some of the rather narrow ideology that goes on here?...watch "Masters Of The Barebow"...especially Vol II...they got like a dozen well known pros who all shoot about 12 different ways...Fred Eichler actually comes back like he's gonna snap it but then as quickly as he comes back?..he creeps forward...and not just a little bit...like inches...but the one i liked most was one of the least known...(figures, right? LOL!)...i liked Steve Fausel...he points out in the vid that loooking at his lonbow?..some might think he doesn't know what he's doing because he braces his longbow at about 9"s...but then he points out that he does this because it simply feels good, right and natural to him..and outside of ty pelfrey and larry yein he also appeared to be one of the better shots and most importantly?...enjoying the heck out of himself jogging through the hillsides with his dogs and stumping bails...find what works for you...find what's comfy and natural feeling...and keep fun first! L8R, Bill.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> Rick Welch 1-501-821-3791 Give him a call & share your suggestion with him, bro. Tell him Dave Mullins sent ya. Be sure to share his response to you, with all of us here. Have a great day, my friend. :wink:


Rick is welcome to read AT Trad talk like the rest of us, though I take it you don't think he should make a bow set up video since you don't seem to have any plans to tell your close, personal buddy about the suggestion.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Rick is welcome to read AT Trad talk like the rest of us, though I take it you don't think he should make a bow set up video since you don't seem to have any plans to tell your close, personal buddy about the suggestion.



On the contrary, my friend. I sent this pic in an email to Rick, earlier today. I told him that hopefully you would be able to make the time to speak to him personally, regarding your suggestions. Feedback is a great thing, and as I see it that's what your doing. Simply offering constructive feedback, in the interest of the trad archery community. In my book that's a good thing. Hats off to ya! :thumbs_up


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> On the contrary, my friend. I sent this pic in an email to Rick, earlier today. I told him that hopefully you would be able to make the time to speak to him personally, regarding your suggestions. Feedback is a great thing, and as I see it that's what your doing. Simply offering constructive feedback, in the interest of the trad archery community. In my book that's a good thing. Hats off to ya! :thumbs_up


Cool. I think it would be a good addition to his line up. I should think your suggestion would be enough.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Rick is welcome to read AT Trad talk like the rest of us, though I take it you don't think he should make a bow set up video since you don't seem to have any plans to tell your close, personal buddy about the suggestion.


you and black are troublemakers , I posted that video for others who maybe dont know Rick and his amazing shooting ability .


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

airwolf said:


> you and black are troublemakers , I posted that video for others who maybe dont know Rick and his amazing shooting ability .


My post was in response to waiting4fall's post about what isn't in Rick's videos. Are you going to call waiting4fall a "trouble maker" for posting about what isn't in Rick's videos? 

I call things as I see them, and I can praise a shooter like Rick for his remarkable shooting and I can criticize his videos for content that I think should be included. That's something people can do if they aren't hung up on hero worship or some such.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> you and black are troublemakers , I posted that video for others who maybe dont know Rick and his amazing shooting ability .


I do NOT purposely go around this board to cause trouble. If anything...I try to do the opposite...even though I may voice my opinion while disagreeing with someone.

I can't control the actions of other people here if they disagree with me. I don't wig out or start crying foul becuase someone disagrees with me...but it does get annoying when people lash out with name calling or disrespectful and belittling comments just because there is a disagreement.

Do I think Ricky Welch and sharp are good shots? You better believe I do!

Do I believe they 'think' they are aiming totally Instinctively? You bet I do!

Do I agree with their definition of Instinctive Aiming? NO! and I explain my disgreement based on my education and research...which has NOTHING to do with jealousy or any other negative ego related feelings.

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Good post.





BLACK WOLF said:


> I do NOT purposely go around this board to cause trouble. If anything...I try to do the opposite...even though I may voice my opinion while disagreeing with someone.
> 
> I can't control the actions of other people here if they disagree with me. I don't wig out or start crying foul becuase someone disagrees with me...but it does get annoying when people lash out with name calling or disrespectful and belittling comments just because there is a disagreement.
> 
> ...


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## jasboj (Feb 7, 2011)

To the dude that says instinctive shooting is gapping I say B.S! I guese I drive my truck around aiming where im going by the gap between my hood and where I'm looking! Dude some folks crack me up! To each their own I guese!! Lol!!!


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## jasboj (Feb 7, 2011)

I've been to ricks school! I know better! I'm a pure instinctive shooter! And Dave my friend u did a great job on the video!!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is totally instinctive hunting!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

jasboj said:


> To the dude that says instinctive shooting is gapping I say B.S! I guese I drive my truck around aiming where im going by the gap between my hood and where I'm looking! Dude some folks crack me up! To each their own I guese!! Lol!!!


He's not saying that instinctive shooting is gapping. He's saying that Rick Welch, in living color and by his own words, described and showed his view of the shot as an instinctive shooter. The picture and description were exactly what has long been described as gap and what many who gap observe as well. Sometimes, what one defines something, others do not.

We end up with a lot of folks speaking for Rick but ignoring that Rick spoke for himself and put in video to boot. I think Rick is probably totally up front about the whole thing and couldn't care less what it's called, as whatever, it works for what he does. Some just get mad and insulted for him, where I doubt he gives a second thought to begin with.


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> View attachment 1412816
> 
> 
> 
> This is totally instinctive hunting!


I disagree....he had the pre-tense to put on a Orange hat before hopping into the hottub. That clearly shows he was thinking about doing it to some degree before actually taking the shot IMO......lol


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

onlyaspike said:


> I disagree....he had the pre-tense to put on a Orange hat before hopping into the hottub. That clearly shows he was thinking about doing it to some degree before actually taking the shot IMO......lol


Yes, I think the safety cap was an important choice, lest some other hunter think they are being shot at by a deer sitting in a hot tub...and return fire. :mg:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> View attachment 1412816
> 
> 
> 
> This is totally instinctive hunting!


It has to be instinctive because his scope is clearly fogged..


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> He's not saying that instinctive shooting is gapping. He's saying that Rick Welch, in living color and by his own words, described and showed his view of the shot as an instinctive shooter. The picture and description were exactly what has long been described as gap and what many who gap observe as well. Sometimes, what one defines something, others do not.
> 
> We end up with a lot of folks speaking for Rick but ignoring that Rick spoke for himself and put in video to boot.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jasboj said:


> To the dude that says instinctive shooting is gapping I say B.S! I guese I drive my truck around aiming where im going by the gap between my hood and where I'm looking! Dude some folks crack me up! To each their own I guese!! Lol!!!


If I'm the dude you're referring to...I've NEVER said Instinctive Aiming is Gap Aiming. I've actually done quite the opposite and tried to describe the differences between Instinctive Aiming and Gap Aiming.

Instinctive Aiming does exist as a unique and seperate barebow aiming technique and deserves it's own name to seperate it from the other barebow aiming techniques....but it's NOT exactly as Ricky descibes because what he described is really no different than what many Gap shooters already do.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Rick in his video is not describing gap shooting - unbelieveable - go watch Jimmy's video on Gap shooting and compare that to what Welch is describing...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here is gap shooting explained by Jimmy Blackmon - watch the video and see if you think this is what Rick Welch said he was doing in the video that I will post below - btw - This video by Jimmy was praised by everyone as one of the best explanations of gap shooting put on film!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here is Rick again:






You can clearly see that what Jimmy explained and is doing is NOT the same as what Rick explained and is doing


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Rick says right in the video "*as opposed*" to focusing on your arrow and holding it high or low or right on what you want to hit based on distance - Welch does not gap shoot - he made this video to try and illustrate something that is very difficult to explain - sort of like trying to explain how to balance on a bike or how to throw a ball accurately - you can explain the form and the mechanics - but the actual aiming when you throw a ball is not very easy to explain.

Talk to any of his students and ask if they are taught to learn their "point on distance" if they are told to write down their gaps in a log book - as Jimmy describes - ask any of them if they are ever taught to ever consider anything about any gap or the arrow at all!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Rick in his video is not describing gap shooting - unbelieveable - go watch Jimmy's video on Gap shooting and compare that to what Welch is describing...


Yes...Jimmy is describing Gap Aiming...BUT as an archer becomes more and more familiar with their gaps...they no longer put nearly as much conscious thought into those gaps to the point they let their aiming reference float around it's proper position while the archer is completely focused on the target.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Rick says right in the video "*as opposed*" to focusing on your arrow and holding it high or low or right on what you want to hit based on distance


Exactly! Many Gap Shooters do NOT focus on the arrow because they are totally focusing on the target.



sharpbroadhead said:


> he made this video to try and illustrate something that is very difficult to explain - sort of like trying to explain how to balance on a bike or how to throw a ball accurately - you can explain the form and the mechanics - but the actual aiming when you throw a ball is not very easy to explain.


It is easy to explain...if a person went to school to understand it or research kinesiology and sports pshycology for their job.



sharpbroadhead said:


> Talk to any of his students and ask if they are taught to learn their "point on distance" if they are told to write down their gaps in a log book - as Jimmy describes - ask any of them if they are ever taught to ever consider anything about any gap or the arrow at all!


I do know that Ricky tries to get the archer to change things about their form and bow setup to help an archer point more naturally at a target as they would when they point their finger.

When most if not all people point their finger at an object...their finger is on or very near that target within their direct line of sight...so it's no wonder why Ricky suggests that an archer shoot 3 Under and possibly raise their anchor point to get the arrow to act more like their finger within their sight picture.

It totally makes sense to do that. It makes aiming much easier when a shooter's aiming reference is closer to being on target.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Rick is describing EXACTLY how a gap shooter aims when they are between their near and far zero points. There is no need to think of the range within that area so long as you are shooting fast arrows.

Even his OWN video shows EXACTLY how a gap shooter aims within this area of their range. That is why its an effective version of gap shooting that works very well within the limited range of IBO 3D and hunting.

Just imagine what he could do if he made an honest attempt at good form and learning how to gap at the longer ranges?

-Grant


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I do know that Ricky tries to get the archer to change things about their form and bow setup to help an archer point more naturally at a target as they would when they point their finger.
> 
> When most if not all people point their finger at an object...their finger is on or very near that target within their direct line of sight...so it's no wonder why Ricky suggests that an archer shoot 3 Under and possibly raise their anchor point to get the arrow to act more like their finger within their sight picture.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Rick helps people improve their sight picture. The shooting may be "instinctive" but if somone is using three under and anchoring on their cornea (or there abouts) it is because they are using the sight picture formed by their bow and tip of their arrow as a reference. There is no other reason to anchor that high on the face--it isn't a very sound or ergonomic anchor and the only justification is to shorten the point on distance/reduce the gap at shorter distances.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

as usual - the gap shooters refuse to believe the actual shooters and how they KNOW they aim - you guys have at it - I KNOW how I am and Rick KNOWS how he aims and his students KNOW how he teaches them to aim - all you internet experts - keep patting yourselves on your backs for your god-like knowledge of how others aim. The rest of us will keep shooting our bows and sharing with others how we KNOW we shoot.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> as usual - the gap shooters refuse to believe the actual shooters and how they KNOW they aim - you guys have at it - I KNOW how I am and Rick KNOWS how he aims and his students KNOW how he teaches them to aim - all you internet experts - keep patting yourselves on your backs for your god-like knowledge of how others aim. The rest of us will keep shooting our bows and sharing with others how we KNOW we shoot.


What seems to be true and what is actually true aren't always the same thing. Why don't you tell us why so many "instinctive" shooters need to shoot 3 under with the arrow high up under their eye if they aren't using a sight picture? Do you have to throw a baseball from under your eyeball? Swing your golf club from under your eye? No, you don't. Shoot instinctive, and gap and point of aim and sights. I don't have anything against any of them. They are all tools we get to choose and apply to the right application. What I'm against is when people have some sort of insular, parochial attachment to aiming systems and reflexively make claims as if aiming systems were a religion or a political party. If you aren't using a sight picture you don't need to anchor under your eyeball.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Yeah, Rick helps people improve their sight picture. The shooting may be "instinctive" but if somone is using three under and anchoring on their cornea (or there abouts) it is because they are using the sight picture formed by their bow and tip of their arrow as a reference. There is no other reason to anchor that high on the face--it isn't a very sound or ergonomic anchor and the only justification is to shorten the point on distance/reduce the gap at shorter distances.


:thumbs_up

There is a direct corelation to a person's direct line of sight and conscious awareness. The closer an object is to a person's direct line of sight...the more consciously aware of that object they will become.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hmmm - there is Fred Asbell the guru of instinctive shooting - and there is me shooting - I am shooting 3 under and Asbell is shooting split - the arrow is no closer to my eye than it is to Fred's


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Conscious aiming and subconscious aiming... I'm just sayin'


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

amen Kegan


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - and btw - Warbow - I don't give a rats behind how you aim either - and I do not hold instinctive aiming to be anything special, magical, or anything else - it is simply aiming at a subconscious level and anyone can do it - the most difficult thing about it is surrendering the aim completely to the subconscious


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> as usual - the gap shooters refuse to believe the actual shooters and how they KNOW they aim


Ironically sharp...I can aim totally Instinctively and do depending on the shot and the situation.

I have taught myself to aim Gap, Point of Aim, Split Vision and Instinctive Aiming. I CLEARLY know the differences between all of them to know what to use and when or how to explain the similarities and the differences.

Your mentor/coach has taught you what he believes to be Instinctive Aiming...and for wehatever reason...you won't accept that what he has described in his video...is EXACTLY no different than how many experienced Gap shooters aim.

In order for Instinctive Aiming to be different than Gap Aiming...there needs to be a difference...and it's NOT totally based on what the archer is focusing on.



sharpbroadhead said:


> all you *internet experts *- keep patting yourselves on your backs for your god-like knowledge of how others aim.


Are you really that weak of a person that you have to resort to name calling because someone disagrees with you?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> Conscious aiming and subconscious aiming... I'm just sayin'


That definitely plays a roll in it...but there are some people who think that just because an archer is totally focused on the target that there is no way they can be consciously aware of their aiming reference.

Just because an archer is more focused or trying to totally focus on the target does NOT mean that there is NOT some level of conscious awareness involved with their aiming reference/references.

Time at anchor also plays a roll in True Instinctive Aiming. The longer an archer holds anchor...the more they become consciously aware of objects within their sight picture....especially if those objects are close to or are within their direct line of sight.

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> View attachment 1413087
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm - there is Fred Asbell the guru of instinctive shooting - and there is me shooting - I am shooting 3 under and Asbell is shooting split - the arrow is no closer to my eye than it is to Fred's


You guys are both gunbarelling, IMO.

I'm still not seeing you explain why an "instinctive, I don't look at the sight picture" shooter needs to anchor high up under the eye.

I have no problem with the way you shoot, BTW. I think you should shoot however you like. That what hobbies are for. But I also think we should base explanations about aiming styles based on sound reason, logic and objective evidence. If you aren't using your arrow as a sight picture then it makes no sense to anchor where you do. It is not the most ergonomic anchor, it shortens your draw length and makes good aliment harder.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

True. I just think that the biggest difference is whether you make an effort to adjust (consciously) your sight picture or simply focusing on the target and letting your mind and body to do it (subconscious).

Again though, enough of us shooting a lot of styles, so I think a lot of the arguing is just discouraging folks from trying everything to find what they like.

Blondes, red heads, or brunettes?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Warbow - are you a newbie? LOL - you have to be the first person I have ever heard of that has accused Fred Asbell of "gunbarrelling" - so according to you nobody shoots instinctive unless they have a very low anchor - LOL - wow Fred Asbell is now not an instinctive shooter either - wow oh btw the the guy below is gunbarelling - Fred Asbell is not and neither am I as can be seen in these images:

This is gunbarrelling:









This is not:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Warbow - are you a newbie? LOL - you have to be the first person I have ever heard of that has accused Fred Asbell of "gunbarrelling" - so according to you nobody shoots instinctive unless they have a very low anchor


No, SB, my point is that their is no point to a high just under the eye anchor unless you are using it as part of your sight picture. You still haven't refuted that. I'm not saying you are necessarily using it deliberately or consciously. I do believe there is such a thing as not using a visual sight picture. Frank Addington Jr. does it all the time when he shoots baby aspirins from behind his back. But you haven't explained why you need to anchor under your eye if you are shooting instinctive--especially given that the high under the eye anchor is not them most ergonomic nor does it have the most reference points for repeatability. You are doing a lot of indignation and tap dancing but no actual refutation of my point.

And the only thing fundamentally different from the top and bottom pictures you showed is the angle the photo is taken from, not whether both you and Asbell are sighting down the arrow--consciously or unconsciously.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh my gosh - he anchors high on his face - he must not be shooting instinctive:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh my gosh - he anchors high on his face - he must not be shooting instinctive:


At this point I think you are just being reflexively obstinate. This is yet another post where you skip over why you need to anchor directly under your eye if you aren't using the arrow as a sight picture, whether consciously or unconsciously.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The need to anchor high on the face is a need to have consistent compfortable anchor points that can be reached with a hunting weight bow. This anchor also allows for the bow to be held at any degree of cant without effecting the impact point due to torque that could occur with a low anchor point trying to cant the bow under a tree limb. I don't care about trick shooting and shooting behind my back - I am a bowhunter.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - "wheter consciously or unconsciously" - ummmm - if you are aiming at a subconscious level - you are aiming instinctively by definition - are you sure you are not a newbie?

Here is the Merriam-Webster Medical Definition of Instinct:


Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
*2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level *

Note the 2nd definition - if one is aiming at a level that is below the conscious level - ie: if he is not consciously considering distance, the arrow, the bow, etc... - he is shooting instinctive - regardless of his "sight picture" or where he anchors. I can tell you that where I anchor the only time the arrow gets in the way of my sight picture of the target is at something like 50 yards - then the arrow gets in the way of the target and I have to consciously "look through" the arrow and force myself to ignore it and block it out of my head - otherwise it is not even a factor - all I see and focus on is the target.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I was under the impression that we've gotten past this.

I thought I remembered that Sharpy conceded that his sight picture might have something to do with his aiming, but that he was unaware of it when he was shooting, and paid it no heed. I can buy that. 

I often use the out of focus parts of my bow and arrow when sighting in the target, without ever changing my focal distance, and sometimes, when I shoot as I would consider instictively, primarily at short distances under time constraints (speed rounds, moving targets), while I may have arrow and bow physically in sight, and could see them if I thought about it, I never did consider it, and I never remembered their relationship with the target.

One time I was shooting a target, using Sharpy's mental drill the hole method with your psychic energy (before I knew it was his ), after my arrow fell into exactly where I wanted it, a friend asked if I was using the little twig hanging in front of the target as a small aiming spot. I said, "What twig?" It was right in the center of where I was aiming, and I didn't know it was there. 

While I wouldn't argue that the entire sight picture isn't available to our brain at any given instant, when we're talking about aiming technique, we're talking about what we do consciously, or rather, what we're focusing on, paying attention to, etc. If an archer believes that's what they do, I have no problem taking their word that it is their technique. There may be a whole lot more going on than what they realize, but in terms of their deliberate approach, I can't see anything to argue with.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

kegan said:


> *Conscious aiming and subconscious aiming... I'm just sayin'*


Well put young fella !

as for the rest ...

the cosmic ballet that is AT goes on ............


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Maybe we should just have a sticky with various definitions of instinctive shooting, and then have a reference on which one we mean  We can name each subset after it's champion.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

If anyone here cares please post up but I will be the first to say.......drumroll please.......WHO CARES!!!!!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The need to anchor high on the face is a need to have consistent compfortable anchor points that can be reached with a hunting weight bow. This anchor also allows for the bow to be held at any degree of cant without effecting the impact point due to torque that could occur with a low anchor point trying to cant the bow under a tree limb. I don't care about trick shooting and shooting behind my back - I am a bowhunter.


SB, I do believe in "instinctive" shooting--and yes, I put it in quotes. I just happen to think there is more too it than some advocates of the process seem to think, and seem to reject for some inexplicable ideological reflex. I think that various people and aiming systems are on a continuum from no sight picture (Frank Addington Jr.s behind the back shooting, to some sight picture (most "instinctive shooters," and especially all of those who use high, just under the eye anchors--even if the sight picture is used unconsciously) through Split Vision, Point of Aim to adjustable sight archery. And I think instinctive archery is a great tool, especially for hunting and 3D--and it is a lot of fun. I just reject the rationalizations for why you have anchor just under the eye when you could get better, more ergonomic anchors on the side of your face. I think you are using motivated reasoning to come up with the rationalizations of why you have to anchor under your eye that all avoid the obvious point of anchoring under your eye: **putting the arrow under your eye**.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Maybe we should just have a sticky with various definitions of instinctive shooting, and then have a reference on which one we mean  We can name each subset after it's champion.


LOL...I like it :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - "wheter consciously or unconsciously" - ummmm - if you are aiming at a subconscious level - you are aiming instinctively by definition - are you sure you are not a newbie?
> 
> Here is the Merriam-Webster Medical Definition of Instinct:
> 
> ...


Good lord, how much denial can on person have about why they have to anchor *under their eye*. BTW, I agree that the colloquial, non-behavioral sciences definition "*behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level" *is a valid, if potentially misleading and equivocal, reason to call your style of shooting "instinctive". The only issue I'm bringing up is that the both you and Asbell are going out of your way to set up a sight picture that gunbarrels down the arrow, and you both go out of your way to deny that you are doing just that. And, BTW, none of this is a slight on your shooting style or ability, nor that of Asbell.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

kegan said:


> True. I just think that the biggest difference is whether you make an effort to adjust (consciously) your sight picture or simply focusing on the target and letting your mind and body to do it (subconscious).
> 
> Again though, enough of us shooting a lot of styles, so I think a lot of the arguing is just discouraging folks from trying everything to find what they like.
> 
> Blondes, red heads, or brunettes?


Tough call....... The brunette is shooting gap, the redhead is shooting instinctively, and the blonde is trying to figure out which end of the arrow to nock....


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh my gosh - he anchors high on his face - he must not be shooting instinctive:


If you also notice...he shoots very fluidly and doesn't pause at anchor very long at all..if at all with some of his shots.

AGAIN...there is a direct corelation with time at anchor and the objects within an archer's vision as it applies to the conscious and subconscious/unconscious aspects of aiming.

Ray :shade:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

vabowdog said:


> If anyone here cares please post up but I will be the first to say.......drumroll please.......WHO CARES!!!!!



spoilsport !


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabowdog - the only reason I care is that I happen to think that the way that I aim, Rick Welch Aims, and Fred Asbell aims is the best possible way for a bowhunter to aim and I like to try and help others understand what it is and how it is done - just like the gap shooters feel about how they aim - and it drives me nuts when guys on the internet make these absurd claims that we are either lying about how we aim or are too stupid to understand that we really are gap shooting and just "think" we are aiming instinctive - i feel that these remarks are insulting and damaging when we try to help other archers learn to shoot the way that we prefer to shoot. 

I don't go in gap threads and trash gap shooting -I don't go in and say joe blow is not lying when he claims he is a gap shooter, he just thinks he is a gap shooter, but is not educated enough to know he is not really gap shooting - so I believe that he "thinks" he is gap shooting - but he really is not. Or as some have claimed that joe blow claims to be a gap shooter just to get the prestige of pretending to gap when he really is not.

This stuff is absurd and if instinctive shooters constantly went into gap threads with this nonsense and ruined every single thread about gap shooting - we would be banned from the forum for constantly starting trouble - but in every thread where instinct is brought up or where an instinctive shooter like Rick Welch is brought up - people like Ray have to come into these threads with their condescending opinions and trash the way we shoot as if we are not shooting the way we say we are.

We all know his opinions on this - he thinks that Rick Welch and myself are not intelligent enough to know how we aim and he does not think we are liars - just that we are too stupid to know how we are actually aiming - we just "think" we are aiming instinctively - but we are not "totally instinctive" - we are just sort of instinctive and not intelligent enough to know the difference. blah, blah, blah - it is ridiculous.

It would sure be nice if a thread about instinctive shooting or one about an instinctive shooter was not filled with this nonsense. 

That being said - This thread has run its course for me - I am out of here

ps - btw - Warbow has to take the cake in this thread for claiming that Fred Asbell is not an instinctive shooter and is gunbarrelling - LOL - THAT IS HYSTERICAL - this guy wrote the book on instinctive aiming - LITERALLY - I guess ole Fred is too stupid to know what he is doing too - the arrogance of these guys is really astounding.

Oh - and BlackWolf - in the video that I posted the guy is shooting at ariel targets - I don't pause at anchor at ariel targets either - there is no time - I need to get my boots if I want to stay in this thread - and it is too darn hot to put those big rubber boots on.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> True. I just think that the biggest difference is whether you make an effort to adjust (consciously) your sight picture or simply focusing on the target and letting your mind and body to do it (subconscious).


There definitely is a difference between an archer who consciously analyzes the target's distance and their exact gaps as RangerB explained to an archer who basically analyzes the target's distance by recognizing it as being close, short, medium, far or long and than more or less sets their sight picture to look about right while they focus on only the target. What we have here is NOT aiming TOTALLY Instinctively as a seperate aiming technique. What we have here is a progression of recognizing the target's distance and the proper gap at a lower level of awareness through repetition and practice.

It is NOT the same aiming technique that Kassai or Frank Addington use when hitting aerial targets quickly or from behind their backs.

If it is...please explain how they are exactly alike and why there isn't anything different about them. If you can recognize the differences...than you can begin to understand what's the differences in aiming Totally Instinctively and why sharp's description is no different than what many experienced Gap shooters already do.

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ps - btw - Warbow has to take the cake in this thread for claiming that Fred Asbell is not an instinctive shooter and is gunbarrelling - LOL - THAT IS HYSTERICAL - this guy wrote the book on instinctive aiming - LITERALLY - I guess ole Fred is too stupid to know what he is doing too - the arrogance of these guys is really astounding.


Don't the facts get in the way of the argument you have your mind made up about, SB. Please, please quote where I said that Asbell doesn't shoot "instinctively." I pointed out that he's gunbarelling, because he is, just like you are. I don't claim that either of you necessarily use that sight picture consciously, but I do think you both do use it, especially considering how much trouble both of you go to setting up the arrow right under your eye. What "takes the cake" is how indignant you get when someone points that out, and you resort to making straw arguments and rationalizations. It is especially weird because I think your style of shooting is just fine and great for hunting, but I think your understanding of physiology and perceptual psychology is subservient to your "instinctive shooter" ideology.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken,I totally agree all this is ridiculous.

Dewayne


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Are you guys really gonna do this every other week ?

You know what they say the definition of insanity is ? doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Oh - and BlackWolf - in the video that I posted the guy is shooting at ariel targets - I don't pause at anchor at ariel targets either - there is no time


As much as you post videos of yourself...I don't understand why you haven't posted a video of you shooting aerial targets without alot of editing. Steve Morley has asked you repeatedly to post a video of you shooting aerials but I have yet to see one.

If you shoot quickly and as fluidly as Ron does...than I would say...you were than aiming totally Instinctively and would than like to see you shooting 3D targets the same way...preferably not just one shot at a time...but shooting groups of arrows into the target.

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

JParanee said:


> Are you guys really gonna do this every other week ?
> 
> You know what they say the definition of insanity is ? doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result


Well, except, of course doing the same thing over and over again exactly the same way is the definition of archery. If you don't enjoy repetition archery is really not the right sport :tongue:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I don't discuss this for sharp's sake or anyone else dead set on their definition of Instinctive Aiming.

I ONLY discuss this topic for anyone who reads these threads that may be undecided or who is looking for an educated opinion on this subject from someone who bases their opinions on sport's science.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Well, except, of course doing the same thing over and over again exactly the same way is the definition of archery. If you don't enjoy repetition archery is really not the right sport :tongue:


LOL...good one! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Jaowens76 (Feb 29, 2012)

I really should not do this but.. Wouldnt a high anchor allow your mind to collect far more data without having to be aware it was doing so? IE what I can see I can process. If this allows someone to make a faster accurate shot, even if at first it was at a conscious level, wouldnt this allow the archer to be able to shoot "instinctively", sooner. IMO this is why some can learn to throw more accurately with less repetition that they can learn to putt. The object is closer to ones line of sight, making it far easier to observe as it travels towards its destination.

All that being said Ray and Warbow you guys would argue with a stump as long as it's name was Ken. Sadly I actually do learn a bit reading through your arguments it just makes learning these things a whole lot less "fun". 
Ken two words for ya. "Thick skin" Sometimes I agree and sometimes I dont with your opposition, however even though sometimes I swear they are just trying to rile you up and eventually you take the bait. You have gotten better about it however. 
And just because I did not mention you by name there are a couple of other pot stirrers that while they have great info from time to time also detract from the site at the same time. I can think of two of you right off but since for once you didnt pile on I wont bust your balls... yet. This started ot with a really cool vid and then went to **** because of the same lame ass argument about 5-6 of you have every week. Basically what I am trying to say is grow the hell up and if you think the other guy is wrong just... let it go.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jaowens76 said:


> Wouldnt a high anchor allow your mind to collect far more data without having to be aware it was doing so?


It's not collecting more data. It's basically decreasing the deviation of error with an archer's gaps. It's like comparing a 30yrds. and 60yrds. sight pin at 20yrds. 



Jaowens76 said:


> If this allows someone to make a faster accurate shot, even if at first it was at a conscious level, wouldnt this allow the archer to be able to shoot "instinctively", sooner.


If your definition of 'instinctively' is the same as sharp's and how many experienced Gap shooters already aim...than Yes!



Jaowens76 said:


> IMO this is why some can learn to throw more accurately with less repetition that they can learn to putt. The object is closer to ones line of sight, making it far easier to observe as it travels towards its destination.


These 2 statements together are kind of confusing to me. Are you trying to say throwing a ball is easier than putting a golfball?



Jaowens76 said:


> All that being said Ray and Warbow you guys would argue with a stump as long as it's name was Ken.


You couldn't be further from the truth. I would discuss this with anyone who disagrees with me or is open to understanding the differences. Ken is just the one who cries the loudest when someone disagrees with him about this subject.

There's no reason why people can't have an adult disagreement...but some people just get so worked up that they turn these simple disagreements into something more.

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The need to anchor high on the face is a need to have consistent comfortable anchor points that can be reached with a hunting weight bow. This anchor also allows for the bow to be held at any degree of cant without effecting the impact point due to torque that could occur with a low anchor point trying to cant the bow under a tree limb.


I'm not sure what you consider high, but I do the thumb knuckle behind the jaw, index finger sitting at around the corner of my mouth, and I'm quite comfortable pulling a 70# bow at that anchor, shooting the bow sideways, etc.

I support your definition of instinctive shooting as a legimate one, but this sounds a lot like rationalizing. Asbell pointed out the shooting off the shelf in regards to hand rotation, but really, I think that was a mistaken argument. If you can learn where the top of your wrist is, you can learn where it is if it's 1" farther up. Same with the back of the arrow. It's still in the same place relative to your hand.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Here it is again...in case you missed it the first 500 times. 

View attachment 1413485


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Well, except, of course doing the same thing over and over again exactly the same way is the definition of archery. If you don't enjoy repetition archery is really not the right sport :tongue:


The same could be said about enjoying insanity.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Barney - all this nonsense about anchor - was not my discussion - I was attempting to address this stuff that warbow is saying - it is really hysterical - you got warbow out there saying that Asbell and I gunbarrell and that if you anchor on your face - you are a gunbarreller - you got BlackWolf out there saying if you pause at anchor you are not "truely instinctive" - and calling for me to make a video of myself shooting ariel targets, etc... - it is sad - like all the rest of us have time to do is make videos - and videos that require someone else to film them. I planned on making a video on instinctive shooting that was going to include video of ariel targets - but low and behold - my mom is now in hospice - my son has to move and will be working with me, my dad is breaking down daily over my mom, etc... - so I don't have time to make the video that I wanted to make and certainly do not have time to make a video to prove a point to someone who will not believe it anyhow.

My definition of instinctive aiming is simple - and can only be addressed by the shooter himself - it is simply aiming the bow at a subconscous level and there is NO WAY for someone observing the shooter, watching a video, or looking at a picture to know if that shooter is aiming at a subconscious level or not - the ONLY one who knows is the one doing the shooting. It does not matter if they pause at anchor or if they do not, it does not matter where they anchor, other than the obvious exception of those who truly gunbarrel - and none of them even claim to aim instinctive. It does not matter if you use a rest or not - if you cant or not, if you shoot three under or spit, if you use a clicker or not - etc... - all that matters is what the shooter is consciously doing - and if he is consciously only paying attention to the spot he wants to hit and is not paying any conscious attention to any "gap", the arrow, the bow hand or arm, the bow, etc... - not paying any conscious attention to the distance and always simply looks at the spot he wants to hit and does not look high or low on the target based on distance, etc... - he is an instinctive shooter - because the aim is done at a subconsious level without the aid of sights. An instinctive shooter cannot tell you what his "point on" is and he does not care, and instinctive shooter cannot tell you the difference between a 20 yard shot and a 25 yard shot, and he does not care, an instinctive shooter cannot tell you how he lines up anything other than that he looks at his spot and focuses all of his conscious attention on that spot until after the arrow impacts and he does not care how he lines everything up. What he does care about - if he is good - is that his form is consistent - that he does the same thing shot after shot - and can do it from various positions and degrees of cant if he is a bowhunter -he does care that he can shoot slow - or fast - that he can pause at anchor or not pause at anchor - that he can draw from the hip and shoot - or raise his bow and draw and shoot, etc... - he needs to be versitle and consistent at the same time in his form - but his aim is always the same - he looks at his spot and concentrates on that spot and shoots.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

*What sighted and theoretical instinctive archery have in common.*



sharpbroadhead said:


> The need to anchor high on the face is a need to have consistent compfortable anchor points that can be reached with a hunting weight bow.


Shooting with an adjustable sight and theoretical/true instinctive archery have something in common, they don't need the arrow to form a sight picture. The archer with the sight has the sight to use, and the theoretical/true instinctive archer doesn't need any sight picture whatsoever, just concentrated focus on the target. Since neither of them needs the arrow for a sight picture they can anchor at whatever point best suited to bow efficiency, ergonomics and repeatability. That means that the anchor of a true instinctive archer should look the same as a sighted archer. Let's look at you and Asbell:









Nope, that doesn't look like shooting with an adjustable sight, not even if you account for the difference between canted and vertical shooting on Asbell.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh brother - - I am done - and this time I mean it - this is like discussing the reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire with someone who never heard of Rome.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> you got BlackWolf out there saying if you pause at anchor you are not "truely instinctive" -


Please learn to read and/or please STOP distorting and twisting other people's words.

I said...there is a direct corelation with time at anchor and the objects within an archer's vision as it applies to the conscious and subconscious/unconscious aspects of aiming.

The longer an archer holds anchor...the more the conscious mind can become aware of objects within the archer's vision...especially if those objects are within an archer's direct line of sight or close to it.

Ray :shade:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sharp sorry to hear about your mother 

God bless you and yours in a trying time


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

thanks Jparanee - as I was reading your post here I just got the phone call that my mom died - keep her and my dad in your prayers


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh brother - - I am done - and this time I mean it - this is like discussing the reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire with someone who never heard of Rome.


No, it really isn't. For me, talking to you about the physiology and perceptual psychology of "instinctive" aiming is like discussing modern scientific medicine with someone into pre-scientific medicine. I'm agnostic about aiming systems. To me they are tools you choose depending on you application. You and Asbell both seem to have a ideological need for the arrow to be invisible even to your unconscious mind, and you have all sorts of excuses for why you have to anchor directly under your eye--exactly where you'd anchor for a close point on distance and exactly the opposite of where you would anchor if you didn't need the arrow for your sight picture. If you didn't need the arrow for your sight picture you, and all of the other high anchoring "instinctive" archers would use the same anchors used by archers with adjustable sights. And again, none of this is a slight on your shooting ability or aiming system. The only issue is with your intractable, idological refusal to admit you have peripheral vision which your mind can use unconsciously to mediate your aim.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm sorry Ken 

I truly am, and I will


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> I'm sorry Ken
> 
> I truly am, and I will


Me too! It's tough loosing anyone you're close to....especially a parent or a child.

Ray


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Sharpbroadhead.......You & your family will be in our prayers.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Sorry Sharp.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Very few people use and understand the natural point method Welch uses, including the self proclaimed experts on here. Welch's bow setups are extremely fast and usually the anchor needs to be up higher to adjust for that. An anchor that is that high usually results in point ons that are very close, yet Welch regularly and easily hits 10 rings at 50 yards and over, which shows his out front sense is not the arrow but 2 to 3" lower in the bow arm.


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

Prayers sent for Ken and family.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think this topic needs professional mediation.  you guys are disagreeing about different things. Put you in the same room shooting, and you'd be best buds.


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