# Learning Instinctive archery HELP!!!



## archery fan (Jun 17, 2012)

Hi

I am new to Instinctive archery, and I need some help. 

I just got a recurve a while back, and I wanted to try and get into instinctive archery. I have already searched all over the internet for how to shoot instinctively, and I thought that I had an idea of how to be an instinctive archer. I am focusing on the target, and I have practiced almost every day for the past month. But still now, shooting at only about 12 yards every now and then I get a good 4 inch grouping around the bullseye, but most of the time I am shooting all over the place.

Any help would be great

Thanks.


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## NCTribute (Jan 28, 2007)

archery fan said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new to Instinctive archery, and I need some help.
> 
> ...


Google G. Fred Asbell, I have had his book for about twenty years, very good book.


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## Frederick D. Be (Mar 3, 2009)

Okay, there are some fantastic videos on instinctive shooting by Paul Brunner. He lived up near the Bitterroot in Montana and his passion was instinctive shooting. See if you can google Stoney Wolf Productions Paul Brunner. Also, here is a link to one of the DVD sets...
http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/ne...et-from-stoney-wolf-productions.aspx?a=482483
Hope this helps. Cheers!
Fred


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

I believe instinctive shooting is a myth. To place an arrow on target consistently you must aim the arrow. To achieve consistency you need consistent aiming references. Learn gap shooting if you want to actually hit the target.


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## La Wildman (Mar 9, 2010)

Get the Masters of the Barebow vids and watch them all.......Next step is to SLOW DOWN !!!....Traditional archery is a LIFELONG journey that you will not master over night or within the next 5 years.


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## avid3d (Jun 23, 2002)

archery fan said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new to Instinctive archery, and I need some help.
> 
> ...


you might get more advice in the traditional forum..... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=5


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Moved to the trad forum.


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## Chris723 (Jun 18, 2011)

Tooltech said:


> I believe instinctive shooting is a myth. To place an arrow on target consistently you must aim the arrow. To achieve consistency you need consistent aiming references. Learn gap shooting if you want to actually hit the target.


Not a myth. Of course you will find some references with experience. But you learn the shot by feel and muscle memory. Reference points are only general. I used to be able to group pretty well with no sights and shooting fingers both recurve and compound.

To the OP. it takes time. Lots of time. Don't get frustrated. Keep practicing. In time youll realize what works. Keep solid anchor points for consistent draw lengths. For me it was index finger in the corner of my mouth. Find out what's comfortable and don't change it. Hope that helps give you a starting point.


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## EthanJM (Jun 11, 2012)

If you just started, and are getting 4 inch groups at all, you are doing good. Instinctive shooting will take years to get proficient at, and even then there will be more to learn. The important thing is whether or not you are enjoying it, if you do enjoy it you will be far more likely to learn it than if you force yourself to do it. Since there is no method of aiming during instinctive shooting other than what goes on in the subconscious, it is not easy to learn from any outside sources. As the old saying goes, practice makes perfect.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

a f - 

Here's the short answer. Get your form solid with a formal aiming system ie. sight, POA, gap, whatever. That gradually try to transfer that form to more "instinctive" methods. 

Once approach could be"
1. Sight (guess you know what that is)
2. POA (Point Of Aim - place marker somewhere under the target and place the tip of the arrow on it. Move the marker around so the arrows are going where you want.)
3. Gap (Same as above but without the marker, working off the distance between the arrow tip and the target)
4. Split vision ((same as above, but beginning to focus more on the target)
5. "Instinctive" (shooting without thinking about the gap and focusing on the target center.)

Clearly that was a reader's digest version. 

If when you get back to step 5, it just doesn't work for you, and some people have better eye hand coordination than others, you may have to go back to and stay with one of the other methods. Only down side is that you'll become a better shot, faster. 

Viper1 out.


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## EthanJM (Jun 11, 2012)

Tell us what you mean when you say sometimes the arrows are all over the place? How big is a group when your arrows are all over the place? 4 inch groups at 12 yards for a beginner is great in my opinion, really great. I would say you were doing okay if your groups were 8 inches honestly, you have to start somewhere. What matters is whether or not your groups average out smaller the more you practice.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Ther is a sticky thread in this forum that has pictures of the methods Viper mentioned. Try them all one will stick. I use point on for 20 yard spots, its deadly at known distance. I use gap for 3D because once learned you are a better judge of unknown distance. And i shoot under 20 without any reference. Dont limit yourself.


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

You need good form...whatever style you use. Instinctive is a great style for hunting but accuracy usually decreases with distance with most archers. I shoot instinctive, out to 35 yards it's a good way to shoot.
Like a pitcher throwing the ball, he looks at where he wants the ball to go and throws it. Simple as that, it really aint that complicated.
Some will deny it exist but that's ok. I would go with whatever style fits you. My Dad is 83 years old and still uses the point-aim method...it works for him.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

archery fan said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new to Instinctive archery, and I need some help.
> 
> ...


:grin: Just thinking of your words here... "how do I learn *instinctive* archery".

Traditional Style Archery, on the other hand, has a number of aiming techniques, that seem to all fall into the "instinctive" nomenclature depending upon whom you talk to.

Instinctive would be how I learned till I got some education. Pick up the bow, figure out how to "load it", cock it, and shoot it, would be "instinctive"... or maybe more correctly, intuitively. I find that in the beginning, use the arrow to help your align your shots. Learn what an anchor is and strive to use it from the outset, and what you see and experience will at least have some basis for learning from.

Much Aloha ... :beer:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Question......You've put quite a lot of work into your aiming but how much did you put into form and bow tuning? You can be the best and most focused aimer in the world but if you have not got Form and Bow tuning right you will never shoot consistent groups at any distance.

Maybe some info on your bow setup and form will enable us help you a little better. :thumbs_up


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I, like you shot all over the target til I found the use of back tension. It pretty much cured my arrow roaming problem. My groups at 20 yds became alot tighter and my scores went up on the NFAA target quite a lot. I'm still not satisfied with my scores mainly due to form and execution. So what I'm trying to say, work on FORM and the accuaracy you want will come alot easier!


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## archery fan (Jun 17, 2012)

steve morley said:


> Question......You've put quite a lot of work into your aiming but how much did you put into form and bow tuning? You can be the best and most focused aimer in the world but if you have not got Form and Bow tuning right you will never shoot consistent groups at any distance.
> 
> Maybe some info on your bow setup and form will enable us help you a little better. :thumbs_up


I have a PSE razorback with stick on arrow rest and plunger. I have already tuned the plunger, brace height and nock point doing a paper tuning test. I was using Gold Tip lighting youth shafts because my bow has a light 30 pound draw weight, and I would rather have lighter arrows, but I am going to have to buy different arrows soon because these are on the brink of being too short for me. 

I am pretty sure that my form is ok, even though I am sorta new to archery, for the last year that I have been practicing alot and perfecting my form. I have a solid anchor point, good foot placement. 

I have a good setup and form I am just wondering if I am doing anything wrong with how to focus on the target, or if it will just take a long time.

Thanks for all the help.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would not recommend the Asbell books

I would not recommend what Viper says either

If you want to shoot instinctively you need to develope good and consistent form - the aiming is the simlple part - you simply pick a spot on your target and keep your attenion focused on that spot through the entire draw and until the arrow impacts the target - and this is the important part - KEEP LOOKING AT YOUR SPOT UNTIL THE ARROW IMPACTS THE TARGET - no matter where it hits - your subconscious will eventually get the arrow to go where you want it - if your form is consistent.

I would recommend the following books:

Jay Kidwell's _Instinctive Archery Insights_

Thomas Whitney and Vishnu Karmakar's _The Mental Mechanics of Archery_

Byron Ferguson's _Become the Arrow_

I would highly recommend Rick Welch's videos: _Instructional Shooting Volume II _and _The Accuracy Factory_, or better yet if you can afford it - his one on one archery classes - all available at www.dakotabows.com

I would also recommend you purchase a formaster - here is a video I did on how it works: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9YCudXt9I

Here is a little video of me foolin' around at our club's recent 3D shoot - I shoot instinctive and have never used a conscious aiming method - I just look at my spot and keep looking at it till the arrow impacts: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wWiI4O-Rts

good luck and keep it fun and trust me - you do not need to use a conscious aiming method to get good - I never did - Rick Welch never did - nor did a great many instinctive shots


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Id not be recommending what Sharpbroadhead says either.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> you do not need to use a conscious aiming method to get good - I never did - Rick Welch never did - nor did a great many instinctive shots


I dont agree with this just because everybody is different mentally, being able to shoot as good as Sharp and Ricky is quite rare, some people learn better with conscious reference and transfer to subconscious over time and some can just do it subconsciously straight off.

When I first started shooting I went the instinctive path,it took me nearly 4 years to get good enough to win my first National title, when I switched to Gap aiming it took me 5-6 weeks to get to same skill level as my instinctive aiming.

I think everybody can shoot instinctively well but some people may need to take a different (conscious) aiming route to develop into good instinctive shots,I suggest you keep an open mind and not be charmed by Sharps video of great shooting, as not everybody can shoot like that.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

totally disagree - everyone who has the desire and enjoys archery as much as we do can shoot the same - and Rick has proven this by the fact that at least two of his students going on to become World Champions themselves and the many who have become much better shots than they were before they took his class - and he never teaches conscious aiming. Just ask any of his students how much their shooting improved.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

A F - 

Lets use a little logic here. Based on your first post, you've done your research and practiced (albeit, one month isn't a terribly long time). You're results are sporadic at best. One good end followed by a bad end and repeat. So you can keep doing the same thing and hope things come together or try something a little different. 

Viper1 out.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Yea - lets use some logic here - after one month of shooting and not getting consistent results the guy should try a totally different way of shooting - not work on refining the method he has chosen - that is logical? I wonder - does anyone believe for a minute if he came in here gap shooting and saying that he wanted to be a gap shooter, but was getting inconssistent results after only a month of shooting that Viper would tell him to give it up and try somthing different like instinctive? Does anyone really believe that?

Archery fan - you will find that there is a bias against instinctive shooting by a good number of people in these forums, they will put the word instinctive in quotes, they will claim that only a few "gifted" people can do it, they will claim that nobody does it, they will claim that it is magic or voodoo, they will claim that guys who do do it well are not "truly" doing it, etc... The things they say, claim, and insinuate are amazing and the attitude that some have toward instinctive shooting is one of the most bizarre things I have ever encountered. _(and it is about to start in full force - I am sure - because after all you asked about instinctive shooting - and myself, an instinctive shooter dared to give you advice other than tell you to put a sight on your bow, to gap shoot, or some other conscious aiming method)_ They will now turn your thread into a huge pissing match - one guy will come in here and claim or imply that I don't shoot instinctive or that Rick Welch doesn't, then some of his groupies will follow, then another will come in and say that nobody uses their subconscious to shoot and that the subconscious does not exist, and another will make some other ridiculous claim against instinctive and turn the whole thread to crap. 

If you want to be the best instinctive shot you can - take the advice of people who shoot that way. If you have questions pm me and I will be glad to help or give you my phone number if that is easier.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

1. Check your form. I had a coach that used to tell me to anchor my feet when I got to the line, no shifting between shots. Helped me understand the concept of consistency. If your form is not consistent to start with, then you cannot troubleshoot, you don't have a base yet.
2. Once you can without question say you are using solid consistent form, learn to tune the bow and arrow. If you don't have consistent form, when you bareshaft, you will not get consistent results. i had this issue when I started as well. I was shooting split finger and I was putting too much pressure on the arrow with my top finger. I was doing everything consistent, yet my bareshaft results were hard to understand. Did a video session and say my elbow a bit high. i still do this now and then but now when I start to get results I don't like, I know what to look for.
3. Don't put too much emphasis on your aiming method right now. Whether you Gap, Split Vision, or Instinctive the key to all is to achieve a consistent sight picture.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

The only thing that will help is more....cowbell! :RockOn:


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

I would not recommend Sharpbroadhead either, not that he can Not shoot, just to Opinionated, to get real help from.

Look at the sticky at the top, start close and work on a consistent form..
Then notice the distances in the point to target to get the "feel" instinctive good shooting takes time..

The "Shooting the Stickbow" book by Viper 1
Helped me with all my archery questions..


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## archery fan (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for all the help


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Being a fairly new trad archer myself I will say this - find what works for you, work on consistency with your form from your feet to the top of your head, practice, and most importantly stick with it. When I started I was flinging arrows over the backstop and looking for them buried under the grass. 3 months months later I did my first 3D shoot and on 30 targets I only missed the animal completely 3 times, and this was at unknown distances out to 40 yds ( my overall score however was nothing spectacular.) Point is there is a wealth of knowledge here on AT that you can use in order to find what works best for you, but remember only you will know what is right for you and what style you are comfortable with.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

archery fan said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new to Instinctive archery, and I need some help.
> 
> ...


Congrats...sounds like your enjoying shooting your recurve..

There are lots of ways to improve your shooting..and by what has been posted..you should see pretty much everyone around here is opinionated about it..:wink::wink:

One thing to remember that you need to do all the time when trying instinctive shooting..is you really need to be able to focus well on the spot on the target your trying to hit..Many times we let our eyes wonder around on it and as a result..we shoot around the spot were trying to hit.That's not always a bad thing in hunting if it is close to the spot..but..in shooting bulls eyes..it gets real frustrating when you don't know why it is happening..and try to correct for it.If you can't see it very well..and can't keep focused on it till the arrow hits it..you can still be doing everything else correctly and still miss..so...make sure your vision is good..and if not..get it checked out and corrected...

Remember to draw the bow and release the arrow the same way each time..this means you need to draw it smoothly to the same place and anchor in the same place and release the arrow from that same place each time btw..That's kind of hard to get used to doing if you haven't done it before or for long..or if your bow has too heavy of draw weight for you..in which case..either you will need a lighter poundage bow..or gain the needed strength to be able to comfortably draw and shoot your bow..It's a-lot about comfort..and having everything suitable to you...not someone else..You have to develop your own style for what you intend to do with your bow..You also need to make sure your bow & arrows are tuned and shooting well..and if you don't know how to do this..find a shop in your area that can assist you...it's a whole lot easier when your first starting out..

As too all the rest of the arguments getting started here needlessly..pay them no mind..it's just ignorance..personal opinions and egos getting in the way of trying to offer a new shooter like yourself some friendly advise..and happens all the time here..so don't get upset by it..


Good Luck..and keep at it..It takes time to learn and master the technique..and you get out of it...what you put into to it

Aim small...hit small...

Mac


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

As a newbie myself, I can only add what has been working for me. I was getting frustrated with my lack of accuracey shooting instinctive. I tried for about 5 months and could barely keep the arrows on the paper at 20 yards (I know, 5 months isn't a long time). I don't have any shops near me to help so what I learn is from videos and what I read on AT. Everyone says to blank bale shoot but if you don't know how to execute proper form, how is blank bale shooting going to help??

So, I did the unthinkable ....I put a site pin on my bow. (thanks Viper). I found a metal pin with a loop at the end and taped it to my riser. Instantly, my scores jumped 50 points. Now, I am close to shooting 260's at 20 yards (compared to 190's). This site pin is only being used as a training aide. I can concentrate on my form because now, with the pin, the aiming is the easy part. I can totally concentrate on proper form. I can tell when an arrow goes low or left or right, I know what happened with the shot due to a collapse in my form. It also gives your ego a much needed boost  Shooting a bare shaft along with your fletched shafts tells alot about your form too.

Not sure when I will take the pin off. Maybe if I can get in the 270's?? When the pin comes off, I will try the various aiming methods to see what suits me best. At least I will know my form is solid and I can concentrate on aiming

Good luck and don't get frustrated


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

mrjeffro said:


> As a newbie myself, I can only add what has been working for me. I was getting frustrated with my lack of accuracey shooting instinctive. I tried for about 5 months and could barely keep the arrows on the paper at 20 yards (I know, 5 months isn't a long time). I don't have any shops near me to help so what I learn is from videos and what I read on AT. Everyone says to blank bale shoot but if you don't know how to execute proper form, how is blank bale shooting going to help??
> 
> So, I did the unthinkable ....I put a site pin on my bow. (thanks Viper). I found a metal pin with a loop at the end and taped it to my riser. Instantly, my scores jumped 50 points. Now, I am close to shooting 260's at 20 yards (compared to 190's). This site pin is only being used as a training aide. I can concentrate on my form because now, with the pin, the aiming is the easy part. I can totally concentrate on proper form. I can tell when an arrow goes low or left or right, I know what happened with the shot due to a collapse in my form. It also gives your ego a much needed boost  Shooting a bare shaft along with your fletched shafts tells alot about your form too.
> 
> ...


Yup... thats what we did with my youngest too.... found an old sight bracket and bolted an eyebolt to it.... gave an easy reference and with two scribes on it, gave a sort of alignment reference top and bottom and we learned that bringing the ring down shortened up the shot, aligning the bottom, lengthened them... was cool... and he made one of the most fantastic shots on a pheasant any of us with him had ever seen....... head shot.... (I know... I know... but fer a kid... at about 40 yards ... :grin


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

archery fan said:


> I am focusing on the target, and I have practiced almost every day for the past month. But still now, shooting at only about 12 yards every now and then I get a good 4 inch grouping around the bullseye, but most of the time I am shooting all over the place.


To be good at true instinctive aiming will take months and even years for most people to develop.

It doesn't happen over night...and it definitely doesn't happen within a month...at least with the average Joe.

Instinctive aiming requires the same basic skills that a person uses when throwing a ball.

If you're not very good at accurately throwing a ball....chances are you won't be very good at instinctive aiming....OR...it may just take you longer to develop the motor skills that are required to consistently and accurately shoot an arrow into a target.

What is your archery history? Have you shot a bow before last month...which includes compound bows? 

If you are totally new to this...you will really need to work on developing your form first...before you start working on your aiming technique.

What you need to do is get your form engrained into your motor/muscle memory to the point you don't have to work at it as much or be concentrating so intensely on getting your body into the right positions.

You should base your form and aiming technique primarily on your goals, abilities and personality.

What are your goals exactly?

One of the easiest steps you can do to make aiming easier is to get the arrow closer to your eye and get your Point On Distance (POD) closer to your average shot distance you would like to be proficient at.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

mrjeffro said:


> So, I did the unthinkable ....I put a site pin on my bow. (thanks Viper). I found a metal pin with a loop at the end and taped it to my riser. Instantly, my scores jumped 50 points.


Use a release and your scores will improve too - use a clicker and your scores will improve too, get a compound and your scores will improve too - but if you want to shoot instinctive - putting a sight on your bow is the worst thing you could possibly do


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> To be good at true instinctive aiming will take months and even years for most people to develop.
> 
> It doesn't happen over night...and it definitely doesn't happen within a month...at least with the average Joe.
> 
> ...


Well Ray, I was a pitcher in the 6th grade thru the 12th. I threw 8 no-hitters in high school and one in college at Sam Houston State. I was drafted by the Minnesota Twins and I didn't go to Florida but thats another tale, but having been able to throw a ball accurately is one thing but casting a blame arrow accurately is another ball game. Besides that I didn't always hit the spot the catcher wanted me to. I hope your right on that...being able to throw a ball right on and it will help me down the road loose an arrow right in the 5 ring consistantly......I'm sure nough ready for that to happen. Lets see, I've been at this for almost 5 months and I feel my progression is stymied!


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Use a release and your scores will improve too - use a clicker and your scores will improve too, get a compound and your scores will improve too - but if you want to shoot instinctive - putting a sight on your bow is the worst thing you could possibly do


No sight for me......I want to shoot instinctively or not at all!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rem,

You definitely have that going for ya than.

Let me ask you this....can you remember how you approached pitching mentally and pschologically back than?

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> No sight for me......I want to shoot instinctively or not at all!


Do you mean...that you want to shoot barebow or not at all...or do you truly mean that you ONLY want to aim totally instinctively?

Ray :shade:


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## Chris723 (Jun 18, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Use a release and your scores will improve too - use a clicker and your scores will improve too, get a compound and your scores will improve too - but if you want to shoot instinctive - putting a sight on your bow is the worst thing you could possibly do


What he said^^ if you're going to do that then you might as well go get yourself set up for compound. Puting pins in will make you depend on them. Pick a spot and shoot at it. If your off compensate for it. Keep practicing.


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Use a release and your scores will improve too - use a clicker and your scores will improve too, get a compound and your scores will improve too - but if you want to shoot instinctive - putting a sight on your bow is the worst thing you could possibly do


I didn't put a site on my bow to increase my scores. Like I said, it is to be used as a training aide. If I wanted to keep high scores, I would take my Hoyt Carbon Matrix off the shelf and start drilling x's. 

The increase in score is just a nice little by-product of using a site. The accuracey with a site is telling me that my form is improving and getting more consistent. Nothing more than that


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Agreed!! 
With mrjeffro, and with Confidence, scores, and the Want To Shoot more comes...
:thumbs_up


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It really depends on what you want out of your archery. If you are driven to be as good as you possibly can then you will try several things to find what works for you.
Doing the same thing over and over without improvement is not the recipe for success. You have either hit a wall, or you will hit one soon and at that point you need to identify what is holding you back.

Just "trying harder", "burning a hole" or "focusing more" isn't really the answer. I shoot with a lot of Trad guys who are always focusing on those things, they haven't seen any improvement in the last 12 months. Stuck at the same level. These are the same people who would never consider a change in equipment or form. They just want to make what they are doing work for them, regardless of how poorly it is suited to the shooting they do.

Adding a sight might be the exact thing you need to do to shift the focus of your practice onto what you need to improve; which given your post is likely getting a consistent and correct form.
I've shot with every Trad aiming method possible, none of them has ever made me a worse shot and most have helped the others.

-Grant


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

mrjeffro said:


> I didn't put a site on my bow to increase my scores. Like I said, it is to be used as a training aide. If I wanted to keep high scores, I would take my Hoyt Carbon Matrix off the shelf and start drilling x's.
> 
> The increase in score is just a nice little by-product of using a site. The accuracey with a site is telling me that my form is improving and getting more consistent. Nothing more than that


We put the sight on my sons bow in order that he could enjoy shooting. It is far better to enjoy a task than to not.

Aloha.. :beer:


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## Chris723 (Jun 18, 2011)

In that case it's harder to learn. It's really hard to be shooting compound and then go to instinctive. And more frustrating bc you have been getting x's then all of a sudden you're having a hard time keeping them on the target. Does your arrow spine match the recurve? Too stiff of a spine will give you trouble shooting with fingers too.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

you do not need to put a sight on your bow to develop consistent form - thousands, perhaps millions of people throughout history shot bows without ever putting a sight on them.

I have no issue with sights - but when your goal is to shoot instinctive - - you should never use them - by using sights you are training your brain to aim in a way that is contrary to instinctive - and all it will do is cause problems when a shooter would decide to try and shoot instinctive


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Doing the same thing over and over without improvement is not the recipe for success. You have either hit a wall, or you will hit one soon and at that point you need to identify what is holding you back.
> 
> Just "trying harder", "burning a hole" or "focusing more" isn't really the answer. I shoot with a lot of Trad guys who are always focusing on those things, they haven't seen any improvement in the last 12 months. Stuck at the same level. These are the same people who would never consider a change in equipment or form. They just want to make what they are doing work for them, regardless of how poorly it is suited to the shooting they do.
> 
> ...



Good post Grant and the point I was trying to make before about having an open mind, it doesn't really matter how you learn *conscious* or* subconscious* aiming as long as the end result is what you wanted, it's no sin to lean aiming at a conscious level and gradually transfer it to the subconscious so you become instinctive.

Most important part is you enjoy your learning journey, if youre frustrated with results then a different approach might help :thumbs_up


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Tooltech said:


> I believe instinctive shooting is a myth. To place an arrow on target consistently you must aim the arrow. To achieve consistency you need consistent aiming references. Learn gap shooting if you want to actually hit the target.




LOL, that's funny stuff right ther. I believe GAP shooting to be a myth. Looks like many people are really shooting instinctively but believe they are actually measuring something. Probably satisfies some control issue needs for them.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

There are no shortcuts to successfully shooting a longbow or recurve. It's not about the bow or the sights or whatever. You need to
1. Learn to do it right
2. Practice as best as you can

But if you are trying to learn instinctive without first having a solid grasp of shooting is just not reasonably possible. Didn't say impossible but just not very close to how it's done if done right.

there is the analogy of traditional archery instinctive shooting is like baseball, but you still need to learn to catch and throw before you get a position.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Some archers believe you can shoot a sight totally instinctively...but that's because they don't fully understand what it means to be aiming totally instinctively.

Using a sight, an arrow or any other aiming reference at a lower level of conscious awareness isn't the same thing as true instinctive aiming.

Looking through an aiming reference whether it's an arrow or a pin sight while focusing ONLY on the target so that the aiming reference/references are blurred...is NOT what true instinctive aiming is all about.

Many archers that believe they are aiming totally instinctively are basically gapping at a lower level of conscious awareness when compared to another archer, who is basically shooting the same way but is consciously analyzing everything.

Many Gap shooters aim at a lower level of conscious awareness that basically imitates what many people believe to be true instinctive aiming.

The key is choosing and working on your technique until it feels natural and produces the kind of results you want.

Who cares what it is or how you do it....as long as your happy. If you're not happy...than research your options.

Definitions are really only important for educational reasons. Terms can basically mean anything you want them to unless you're trying to educate or learn terminology as accurately as possible.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Good post Grant and the point I was trying to make before about having an open mind, it doesn't really matter how you learn *conscious* or* subconscious* aiming as long as the end result is what you wanted, it's no sin to lean aiming at a conscious level and gradually transfer it to the subconscious so you become instinctive.
> 
> Most important part is you enjoy your learning journey, if youre frustrated with results then a different approach might help :thumbs_up


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

For anyone who thinks a sight will "ruin" them. I say, put a sight on your bow and go compete in Freestyle Limited Class a bit. Quickly, you will find your scores, no matter how much improved over your unsighted scores, will be less than par. That division will actually put more emphasis on your form requirements, that is, to be able to compete at the higher level. Now, take that improved form and transfer back to unsighted, it's a win/win proposition.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

EthanJM said:


> Tell us what you mean when you say sometimes the arrows are all over the place? How big is a group when your arrows are all over the place? 4 inch groups at 12 yards for a beginner is great in my opinion, really great. I would say you were doing okay if your groups were 8 inches honestly, you have to start somewhere. What matters is whether or not your groups average out smaller the more you practice.



Good post. And remember,it will come with time. Don't get hung up thinking that it will take years. Maybe to get to some competition level could take a while but you will still be noticing improvement a lot sooner.
Keep shooting and let it "come to you". It will.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

A sight is a tool that when used properly allows focus on other important matters that otherwise become secondary to hitting a spot. 

If the human was wired differently perhaps you would not need clickers and sights to teach somone to become like a machine. If everyone understood that arrows should group even if they are not centered on the target, then it might be good advise to tell folks that since so-and-so didn't use sights and look at him, he's a champion!!!. 

When a new shooter is shooting arrows all over the place you don't use or suggest a the sight to fix that.........That might be news to some of you. You use the sight to take sighting out of the equation so you can focus on form.
I have watched my good friend and level 4 coach add a sight to a bow with a new shooter and then go right to work on form. The missing sight was a distraction, nothing more. It has to do with how we are wired and it's not for everyone. But neither is "watch a video.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Eldermike said:


> It has to do with how we are wired and it's not for everyone.


:thumbs_up

A customised approach...will always be the best approach....because of how we are NOT all wired exactly the same, have the same talents or share the exact same goals.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

forestgump said:


> lol, that's funny stuff right ther. I believe gap shooting to be a myth. Looks like many people are really shooting instinctively but believe they are actually measuring something. Probably satisfies some control issue needs for them.



amen!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sanford said:


> For anyone who thinks a sight will "ruin" them. I say, put a sight on your bow and go compete in Freestyle Limited Class a bit. Quickly, you will find your scores, no matter how much improved over your unsighted scores, will be less than par. That division will actually put more emphasis on your form requirements, that is, to be able to compete at the higher level. Now, take that improved form and transfer back to unsighted, it's a win/win proposition.


I can shoot barebow scores pretty darn close to the very best, but I know I can't hang with even middle of the road freestyle shooters. That is because all over our various BB aiming techniques do not require the absolute commitment to good for that shooting freestyle does.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

for all those who think Grant's post about doing the same thing over and over without improvement - ummmm- the guy has only been shooting for 30 days!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> for all those who think Grant's post about doing the same thing over and over without improvement - ummmm- the guy has only been shooting for 30 days!


Do you ever read the OP or just wait to see what others say and respond accordingly.

And I quote:


> I just got a recurve a while back, and I wanted to try and get into instinctive archery. I have already searched all over the internet for how to shoot instinctively, and I thought that I had an idea of how to be an instinctive archer. I am focusing on the target, and I have practiced almost every day for the past month. But still now, shooting at only about 12 yards every now and then I get a good 4 inch grouping around the bullseye, but most of the time I am shooting all over the place.


He's had it since "a while back" and he's "practiced almost every day for the past month" without any improvement. Sorry man, but when I teach people it takes them a lot less than 30days of continuous shooting to see consistent groups at that range.
But I'm not some fancy coach, I just shoot bows and people ask me to help them.

-Grant


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I can shoot barebow scores pretty darn close to the very best, but I know I can't hang with even middle of the road freestyle shooters. That is because all over our various BB aiming techniques do not require the absolute commitment to good for that shooting freestyle does.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, without complete dedication for a good period, I can at times, shoot better overall competitive score with my Trad rig than with my Oly. It's not in absolute terms, as it is relative to the amount of time and dedication I put into it, and of course, distances being shot, but the amount of form work and precision in form required to compete with dedicated sighted shooters can be daunting when you enter that race, if not impossible without a coach on hand. My Trad game has nothing but improved because of shooting sighted, though, and for the short stuff, I'm pretty much instinctive.

When I see folks talk about "sighted" recurve and "easy" in the same sentence, I know how limited their archery experiences are. It's only easier to what you were doing before, and sometimes not even that for a new guy.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would bet my bow if we watched a video of the OP that he is snap shooting and bending all over like Asbell and dropping his bowarm - and none of this has anything to do with how he is aiming.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Sharp, that's a good reason a sight would help him. In order to get a sight picture you have to hold at full draw. It's a starting point to good form. If he's overbowed a sight will tell him. If you can't hold the sight still you can't shoot the bow,,,,,,yet.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

You do not need a sight to do that - you just need to throw away the Asbell books


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Sharp, I know you want try this. However, go to full draw and look at your arrow point in relation to some target spot. As good as you are it will be rock solid no issues holding it there at all. That's not the case with many that have been shooting for years and years. Put a sight on their bow and then they see the problem. That point is all over the place just like the arrows. So what do they fix? A better sight? nope, that's not the problem. See my point?


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Mo0se said:


> The only thing that will help is more....cowbell! :RockOn:


Here you go.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

reddogge said:


> here you go.
> View attachment 1388832


Yeah!!!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Elder - I have been to traditional archery shoots and events all over the country and talked to a great many shooters, and I have never met a single shooter who shoots instinctively that ever put a sight on their bow. Odd, Rick Welch teaches students to just look at the spot and all the aim to be subconscious - he has never told his students to put a sight on their bows - yet he has at least two students who are World Champions, and many more who have improved so much that they are winning local and state tournaments - and all shooting instinctive and having never put a sight on their bows. I am completely convinced that anyone who wants to shoot instinctively can do it, do it well, and in a short time - if they have the proper instruction to begin with and are not fighting snap shooting, poor stance, poor form, etc... and they do not need a sight on their bow to do it.

For me the most pure, fun, natural, and all around best method of shooting a bow for a bowhunter is instinctive - and I really hate to see guys who do not shoot instinctive, do not understand what it is, do not believe that it even exists, etc.... in these forums telling guys to do things that would do nothing but hurt them as instinctive shots when they are asking for help instinctive shooting.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Use a release and your scores will improve too - use a clicker and your scores will improve too, get a compound and your scores will improve too - but if you want to shoot instinctive - putting a sight on your bow is the worst thing you could possibly do


While I'm not convinced that it's the worst thing you can do, and it might serve as a good illustration of why somebody is missing as much more to do than aiming, instinctively or not, I do see, and have experienced your point, albeit temporarily. 

I tried putting a sight on my recurve, was suprised at how much tighter my groups were. If I felt a form deviation, I definitely saw it in the arrow, but if I shot what felt like a good shot, the groups really tightened up. That said, I also noticed how much a full 5 pin sight with pin guard got in the way of my sight picture, and how annoyed I got having it in the way. I also didn't like the distraction concentrating on whether the sight was level (I shoot canted, but I could cant the sight as well). After a bit, the sight, to be, became more of an irritation, though I think it was an interesting exercise.

Immediately after taking off the sight, my shooting "sightless" was pretty horrible. It was a ***? moment. Thankfully, it came back after a few ends to where I was before.

So, what I've learned so far from using a sight?

I need to work on my aiming, as well as my form, both consciously and not. Personally, my goal is to use conscious aids, and drill them enough to store them into the unconscious reserve. Which, of course, means, more practice! I'm good with that


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I guess when someone isn't improving at what they are doing the best advice we can get from the self-proclaimed "master" of that discipline is to just try harder. Anyone offering anything more constructive clearly doesn't understand the problem.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

archery fan said:


> *for the last year *that I have been practicing alot and perfecting my form. I have a solid anchor point, good foot placement.
> 
> I have a good setup and form I am just wondering if I am doing anything wrong with how to focus on the target, or if it will just take a long time.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.





sharpbroadhead said:


> I would bet my bow if we watched a video of the OP that he is snap shooting and bending all over like Asbell and dropping his bowarm - and none of this has anything to do with how he is aiming.


If you had bothered to read through the posts you would have see that I asked this question about Form and tuning on page 1 and that he had been working on Form for nearly a year and instinctive aiming for one month



sharpbroadhead said:


> I have been to traditional archery shoots and events all over the country and talked to a great many shooters, and I have never met a single shooter who shoots instinctively that ever put a sight on their bow.
> 
> in these forums telling guys to do things that would do nothing but hurt them as instinctive shots when they are asking for help instinctive shooting.


You dont get out much or you havent spoken to many shooters, we have a bunch of ex sighted shooters on this forum who moved from wheeles to Trad and instinctive aiming who are doing just fine i.e. shooting with sights for years hasn't hurt their ability in switching to Instinctive aiming.



sharpbroadhead said:


> Odd, Rick Welch teaches students to just look at the spot and all the aim to be subconscious - he has never told his students to put a sight on their bows -


Rick Welch has no need to tell his students to use a sight,he is there evaluating the archer in real time and correcting their Aiming/Form errors. If the archer has no coach to watch them shoot and they aren't 100% sure if the problem is Form or Aiming then using a sight for 10-20 shots can help confirm very quicky if he needs to focus his efforts on Aiming or Form,it is solid advice and will not damage his ability to continue learning instinct.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Elder - I have been to traditional archery shoots and events all over the country and talked to a great many shooters, and I have never met a single shooter who shoots instinctively that ever put a sight on their bow. Odd, Rick Welch teaches students to just look at the spot and all the aim to be subconscious - he has never told his students to put a sight on their bows - yet he has at least two students who are World Champions, and many more who have improved so much that they are winning local and state tournaments - and all shooting instinctive and having never put a sight on their bows. I am completely convinced that anyone who wants to shoot instinctively can do it, do it well, and in a short time - if they have the proper instruction to begin with and are not fighting snap shooting, poor stance, poor form, etc... and they do not need a sight on their bow to do it.
> 
> For me the most pure, fun, natural, and all around best method of shooting a bow for a bowhunter is instinctive - and I really hate to see guys who do not shoot instinctive, do not understand what it is, do not believe that it even exists, etc.... in these forums telling guys to do things that would do nothing but hurt them as instinctive shots when they are asking for help instinctive shooting.


There you go again.... absolutes with absolutely foundation for fact. You are the last person who should be dispensing information for a new shooter. Your head is too burdened with your own ego to be able to instruct anyone objectively.

For the record, my son, who is a japan resident nowadays, learned with a sight and was able to transfer that experience to shooting without a sight... mostly cuz he was opposite eye dominant. We all enjoy shooting together and that came about through the use of an aid... which excellent instructors will use from time to time... you know... aids... to help them with their instruction of those that they want to see excel. The best instructors, sharp, want their students to excel beyond the instructor... and if not, that instructor should not be instructing..

Also... instructors are open to determining how the student learns best, sometimes with feedback from the student.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Sharp ,
You are getting to be, no you are a broken record. Do you have anything to add to this other than instinctive is the only way and that your apparent hero Rick Welch teaches people how to shoot without seeing the arrow? It seems to me that of all the folks on this board you are actually the least qualified to offer an opinion on what works and what doesn't when it comes to teaching others to shoot. I am not doubting your shooting ability as it is clear you are very talented, perhaps the 2nd best instinctive shot ever behind Rick. However because you have stated many times that you only shoot instinctive, have only ever shot that way, never gapped, used POA, or any method other than instinctive how in the world are you qualified to tell others what is right or wrong when you obviously have no working knowledge of what they are talking about. Unless you have actually shot a gap system, used split vision etc. your opinion has no basis of fact. Especially to be talking down to others who have actually done whatever it is you are discounting is getting increasingly rude and boring.
This is a really big world we live in and perhaps someday you will realize that there is more than one way to accomplish a task. It's not all my way or the highway. I personally think Steve, Jimmy, Rod, Viper, and others that have and do use other methods of shooting a bow have a much broader knowledge of the subject matter than you do and are much more qualified to teach a newcomer the best way to get started in this sport. Getting advice from someone with limited knowledge and worse, a closed mind is not the best way for anyone to learn.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

The archers I have the most respect for are the ARCHERS - they can gap - pick a point - stringwalk - instictive - what ever the rules and or situation dictate - they can shoot a self bow or a blinged out glamor bow or even a GASP compound - I really don't care if you hold the weight on your fingers who cares what or how you shoot - heck for that matter the guys shooting blinged out compounds with scopes and all the whistles with a release are great archers as well.

It is a great big world out there don't paint yourself into a corner.

Matt


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I have been to traditional archery shoots and events all over the country and talked to a great many shooters, and I have never met a single shooter who shoots instinctively that ever put a sight on their bow.


1. Not all the thousands of shooters who shoot instinctively do attend or have ever attended and/or shot in events.
2. It would require years and extensive travel to interview all the thousands of instinctive shooters to be able to determine that none or many instinctive shooters ever put a sight on their bow.

Sharp: What I have concluded from your many "instinctive shooting" arguments and claims that you have posted here and on many other archery sites, is that though you shoot well at foam don't ever write an instruction book on the subject or ever personally instruct. If you were to do so you would ruin many shooters before they had a chance to acquire any degree of shooting proficiency. I don't shoot competitively...once used to....but I have no doubt that I would be a much better instructor than you could ever be... unless you change your 'tude and your beliefs. After all, you are not trying to sell your snake oil to just new shooters. Bottom line: Proficient shooting in itself does not mean that you are that good, all around.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I would bet my bow if we watched a video of the OP that he is snap shooting and bending all over like Asbell and dropping his bowarm - and none of this has anything to do with how he is aiming.


Dang Sharp, have you been watching me shoot. I do the "drop" thing with the bow arm and today I realized I was leaning into the shot which was causing the nose problem..........I know you've been spying on me!


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## EthanJM (Jun 11, 2012)

*Sigh* You are all debating, and as far as I can tell we don't have enough information, the OP still hasn't told us what he means by, "all over the place". OP, tell us how big one of your bad groups are to give us an idea what might need to be improved. I think it is an important thing to know. If he is talking about say 8 inches, keep practicing what you are doing. If he is talking about 12 inches, then he needs to keep practicing what he is doing with small variations in technique. If he is talking about 24 inches, there is something he most likely needs to do differently all together, or perhaps he is missing something important, like follow through for instance.
I don't think a sight is a good idea personally, with a sight you focus on the sight and target, instinct shooting you only focus only on the target. It will make you develop a habit of putting your eyes where they shouldn't be for instinct shooting. Lose the sight. Also, don't compete with the users on this forum or anyone with years of experience. Compete with yourself, when you hit dead ends, then it is time to change something slightly.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

funny - the instinctive shooters that are out there winning tournaments and championships - all do it the same way - the same way I do, the same way Rick Welch does, the same way Sean Callanan does, the same way Scott Langley does, etc... - but heck - what do I know - better to take the word of someone who is not an instinctive shooter - whatever - I tried to help someone who wants to shoot instinctive - in - the gods forbid - a thread where a guy asked about instinctive shooting - and I have a guy telling me that I sound like a broken record and think instinctive is the only way to shoot - HELLO - I have never said that - but when someone asks about instinctive - I am going to tell them why I think it is best and how best to get good at it - odd - as I have said ad nauseum - I don't go into gap shooting threads and tell people to try instinctive to be a better gap shooter - but these guys come into a thread on instinctive shooting and tell a guy who wants to become a better INSTINCTIVE shot to put sights on his bow - HELLO - how can one not see how freakin ridiculous that is?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> with a sight you *focus* on the sight and target,


That's just not true, Ethan.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> rem,
> 
> You definitely have that going for ya than.
> 
> ...


Mostly I was thinking about the little brunette in the stands that was watching me on the mound.........How sweet that was after the games.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> funny - the instinctive shooters that are out there winning tournaments and championships - all do it the same way - the same way I do,


Not all good shooters shoot competitive, and archery is not and has never been "one size fits all."


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Do you mean...that you want to shoot barebow or not at all...or do you truly mean that you ONLY want to aim totally instinctively?
> 
> Ray :shade:


I want to shoot instinctively without any sights or visual aids that disqualifies the definition of "instinctive shooting".


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## EthanJM (Jun 11, 2012)

WindWalker said:


> That's just not true, Ethan.


You don't focus? I think I know where you are getting at because I am a pretty good shot with iron sights on a gun. You don't consciously focus on the sight sure, but you are still using it as a visual reference, and that is after getting really good with one. To begin with you have to focus on the sight. I am not experienced at aiming with a sight with a bow because I have only shot bows with sights a couple times in my life. But it did feel an awful lot like a gun as far as aiming, and that is something I do know about. Whether or not you consciously focus on that sight, you are using it as a visual reference. The only visual reference you have during true instinctive shooting is the target, so to get good at instinctive shooting... well you have to shoot instinctively!


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

fwiw . i recently put a sight on just to see how much better a shot i could be. i shot worse with the sight on then i did without. wasted $40 on a stupid idea of mine , went back to basics . focus on the target and only the target, even if your first arrow is off dont worry about it just continue to focus on your target and your next 2 arrows should be much closer. lately i been closeing 1 eye , help narrow things down a little, good luck with it, it takes time!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> Mostly I was thinking about the little brunette in the stands that was watching me on the mound.........How sweet that was after the games.


LOL...that's awesome. Did you end up marring her?

If you can...think about her again or a similar situation :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rembrandt said:


> I want to shoot instinctively without any sights or visual aids that disqualifies the definition of "instinctive shooting".


Sorry for being a block head...but I'm not quite understanding where you're going with that statement.

Could you explain it better?

How does shooting without any sights or visual aids disqualify the definition of instinctive aiming?

Ray :shade:


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Sorry for being a block head...but I'm not quite understanding where you're going with that statement.
> 
> Could you explain it better?
> 
> ...


I just assumed that if you only have the target to look at then it has to be instinctive.......if you use the point of the arrow for any reason, then it isn't instinctive. Your only aiming device is your mind and eye concentrating on the bullseye or whatever your shooting at......


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...that's awesome. Did you end up marring her?
> 
> If you can...think about her again or a similar situation :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


wouldn't you know it...I didn't marry her cause her father put in for a transfer to get her away. She and I were planning on marriage but her father killed that and she never married.......I still have feelings for her and we keep in touch but.... as Al Bundy said..."I'm married with Children"......


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dave - 

At the risk of getting this whole fiasco going again, while you're staring at, burning a hole in or otherwise focusing on the target, exactly how do you ignore something that's right under your nose (the arrow) and something that's right in your line of sight to the target (the bow). It may not be "in focus", but unless you have a fairly severe case of narrow angle glaucoma. you're going to "see" it. How much you actually use it, is a different story. 

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Rem:

If you were shooting instinctively then you could fire any arrow you wanted which would tune from your bow. Yet you have a preference for the heavier shafts you've been shooting because they make a better sight picture for the NFAA round.
If you were shooting instinctively then you wouldn't find any difference between a high anchor and 3under versus a low anchor and split. Yet you prefer a high anchor and 3under.

Every archer comes to various crossroads on their path. You are clearly taking one, but you've got the signs backwards.

-Grant


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

grantmac said:


> Rem:
> 
> If you were shooting instinctively then you could fire any arrow you wanted which would tune from your bow. Yet you have a preference for the heavier shafts you've been shooting because they make a better sight picture for the NFAA round.
> If you were shooting instinctively then you wouldn't find any difference between a high anchor and 3under versus a low anchor and split. Yet you prefer a high anchor and 3under.
> ...


Boy, I'm learning alot about myself......I swear you folks are reading my book or your right out in the bushes and watching me.....I must be like an open book! You catch me in all my contridictions! I have a hard time covering up my Jinkster misquotes! LOL Sorry Jinks.....had to say that!


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> Dave -
> 
> At the risk of getting this whole fiasco going again, while you're staring at, burning a hole in or otherwise focusing on the target, exactly how do you ignore something that's right under your nose (the arrow) and something that's right in your line of sight to the target (the bow). It may not be "in focus", but unless you have a fairly severe case of narrow angle glaucoma. you're going to "see" it. How much you actually use it, is a different story.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Viper, I feel so humbled at the moment.......I do have to admit I look down the shaft and I'm aware of the arrow and where its pointing. I do that but I then, after getting the arrow where I want it, try to concentrate on the target only! what does that make me......a subconsious instictive shooter?


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Viper, what I am trying to say is......you folks quit reading my book and read Vipers. His makes alot more sense!


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> The only visual reference you have during true instinctive shooting is the target


That's just not true, Ethan. 




> You don't consciously focus on the sight sure,


If I am using the pin to reference the target, yes I do. The pin is the front sight.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dave - 

Years ago, a lot of us shot "instinctive" and a lot of other ways too. It was never a religion, just a way of getting the arrow from the bow to the target. Most good "instinctive" shooters reference the arrow or bow or something on some level. I mean, it's there, kinda hard not to notice it. The guys who pay more attention to it are typically the guys shooting better at longer distances. Unfortunately, to make that work, those are the same guys who really have their form down. 

Keep shooting and when a light bulb goes off, don't fight it, work with it. Forcing yourself into a pigeonhole because of some preconceived notion is probably the most limiting thing you can do.

Viper1 out.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm not talking target archery because there are rules today but as far as hunting with a bow I have more respect for the hunter who screws sights on his bow and makes great hits on game all the time than the die hard instinctive shooter who misses and wounds game.


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## archery fan (Jun 17, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> To be good at true instinctive aiming will take months and even years for most people to develop.
> 
> It doesn't happen over night...and it definitely doesn't happen within a month...at least with the average Joe.
> 
> ...


I have shot bows before, for at least a year and a half, but just recently I have become a fairly avid archer, about 5 months ago I used a toothpick as a makeshift sight. But then I heard about instinctive archery and I thought that would have been better path to take (rather than just using sights). 

I think now I should just focus on keeping my form consistent, continue to practice, and not to get discouraged. 

Thanks for the help


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> Dave -
> 
> At the risk of getting this whole fiasco going again, while you're staring at, burning a hole in or otherwise focusing on the target, exactly how do you ignore something that's right under your nose (the arrow) and something that's right in your line of sight to the target (the bow). It may not be "in focus", but unless you have a fairly severe case of narrow angle glaucoma. you're going to "see" it. How much you actually use it, is a different story.
> 
> Viper1 out.


I can answer this question with something we can all relate too. Have you ever noticed that when you buy a new car suddenly you start seeing the exact same model and color everytime you drive? Did they suddenly appear or were they their all along? They were there all along, but you did not pay any CONSCIOUS attention to them - so you did not "see" them because your CONSCIOUS attention was focused on something else. Now that you have purchased this new car and it is taking up a great deal of your CONSCIOUS thoughts - suddenly your SUBCONSCIOUS which sees and has seen these cars everytime your drove before - is bring them to the attention of your conscious mind - and now you consciously notice them. Not that hard to understand if you think about it - the book - The Mental Mechancis of Archery explains this much better than I could - it is a good read - everyone who wants to shoot instinctively - or any method for that matter - should read it.


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## EthanJM (Jun 11, 2012)

archery fan said:


> I have shot bows before, for at least a year and a half, but just recently I have become a fairly avid archer, about 5 months ago I used a toothpick as a makeshift sight. But then I heard about instinctive archery and I thought that would have been better path to take (rather than just using sights).
> 
> I think now I should just focus on keeping my form consistent, continue to practice, and not to get discouraged.
> 
> Thanks for the help


Good frame of mind. I am guilty of that, I get discouraged ALL THE TIME! Sometimes I make awful groups, and it seems every time that happens, I continue to make awful groups because I feel the need to improve said awful group. I either have to take a small break, or make something click inside to get good groups again. I hope to get over this problem of mine soon.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Good thing I can see a car on the road in front and in line of my line of vision. I might not know the model, nor care if it looks like mine, but I can't hit what I can see. We can all relate to that


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Have you ever noticed that when you buy a new car suddenly you start seeing the exact same model and color everytime you drive? Did they suddenly appear or were they their all along? They were there all along, but you did not pay any CONSCIOUS attention to them -


That's true. When I first switched to Easton Autumn Orange I started seeing them everywhere in the fields and woods: In the ground, stuck in trees, laying on the ground, etc. 

What!!!?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

archery fan said:


> I have shot bows before, for at least a year and a half, but just recently I have become a fairly avid archer, about 5 months ago I used a toothpick as a makeshift sight. But then I heard about instinctive archery and I thought that would have been better path to take (rather than just using sights).
> 
> I think now I should just focus on keeping my form consistent, continue to practice, and not to get discouraged.
> 
> Thanks for the help



Yeah,sounds like you're getting the idea and just need to keep at it. And if I were you I would lose the rest and plunger,two more items to introduce the possibility of inconsistency. And totally not cool for instinctive shooter.
Maybe you should stop worrying about groups. It tends to create mental pressure that just feeds on its self with each bad shot. Shoot one arrow and go get it. That will give some time for your brain to evaluate the previous shot and regroup for the next. I bet you will still be able to tell if the arrow is hitting where you want it to or not. A kind of mental group shot one arrow at a time. Personally I don't do well with groups but I am only concerened with the first arrow,the only one that counts.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> funny - the instinctive shooters that are out there winning tournaments and championships - all do it the same way - the same way I do, the same way Rick Welch does, the same way Sean Callanan does, the same way Scott Langley does, etc... - but heck - what do I know - better to take the word of someone who is not an instinctive shooter - whatever - I tried to help someone who wants to shoot instinctive - in - the gods forbid - a thread where a guy asked about instinctive shooting - and I have a guy telling me that I sound like a broken record and think instinctive is the only way to shoot - HELLO - I have never said that - but when someone asks about instinctive - I am going to tell them why I think it is best and how best to get good at it - odd - as I have said ad nauseum - I don't go into gap shooting threads and tell people to try instinctive to be a better gap shooter - but these guys come into a thread on instinctive shooting and tell a guy who wants to become a better INSTINCTIVE shot to put sights on his bow - HELLO - how can one not see how freakin ridiculous that is?


The difference is this:

If someone said "I can't seem to get gap shooting to work for me, something about it just doesn't click". Then I'd probably suggest they try pick-a-point, or gapping off the riser, or even a sight. 
You can't offer an alternative because you have no idea how they work, so you just tell people to try harder and save-up for some sort of miracle week-end workshop with a celebrity shooter.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

you bet - I cannot off an alternative method of gap shooting - because it is not something I do or have experience with - just like Viper and many others here giving instinctive information have no experience or understanding of it. - but I have said all I can and tried my best to help someone asking for help shooting INSTINCTIVE - not gap - not sights, etc... -


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> just like Viper and many others here giving instinctive information have no experience or understanding of it.


Are you saying that regardless how knowledgeable and experienced the person is; unless the person is or has been an instinctive shooter he or she could not possibly understand what (it) is, what is possible and not possible, and how in most cases instinctive shooting would stand up against other aiming methods?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

archery fan said:


> But then I heard about instinctive archery and I thought that would have been better path to take (rather than just using sights).


Curious...why did you think Instinctive Aiming would be a better path for you to take?



archery fan said:


> I think now I should just focus on keeping my form consistent, continue to practice, and not to get discouraged.


:thumbs_up



archery fan said:


> Thanks for the help


You're welcome! :thumbs_up

When you're ready to experiment do what many accurate archers do and get that arrow close to your eye.

There's a reason why Ricky Welch and other coaches suggest this no matter what they call their aiming technique.

Getting the arow closer to the eye...closes the gaps and just makes it generally easier to see and use the arrow as an aiming reference....especially near typical hunting distances.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

archery fan if you have a video camera then use it and when you have bad ends compare against filmed good ends to see if you can spot any differences in form, also look for patterns in your shooting,it might just be mental/physical fatague. (post some video here also)

Sharp maybe spend more time helping the guy than trying to prove everybody wrong with dressed up opinions that are made to look like facts, firstly youre not inside Rickys head so why you even speaking as if you are and you haven't spoken to 1000's of shooters about how they learnt instinctive aiming and you dont know the backgrounds of most of the shooters here so how can you claim they know nothing abut instinctive aiming?

PS when you going to show us that video of you shooting Aerial targets???????????


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## EthanJM (Jun 11, 2012)

WindWalker said:


> That's just not true, Ethan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought you were talking about almost subconsciously using the front sight for reference, which is how I often shoot guns, and I am very accurate that way too (Don't have any guns besides air rifles now anyway, but you shoot them the same way!). I think they call it Kentucky wind shooting, and once you learn it well, you can place some very accurate shots using the front sight as reference, but without even putting it on the target, or noticing it much at all. You were saying you don't focus on the sights, I thought that was what you meant. But I don't know much about sights on a bow, all I know is I tried it on some compounds when people had me shoot theirs, and couldn't hit squat! I was better shooting instinctively. 
However, I have been thinking about this. I notice I do shoot slightly better if I anchor high, perhaps I am using the arrow as reference in the back of my mind, but I am not sure, it is only in my peripheral vision. Who knows what goes on.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

The moral of the story by the quiet men and women.

*LINK:* *Quigley forced to shoot "instinctively."*


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

reddogge said:


> I'm not talking target archery because there are rules today but as far as hunting with a bow I have more respect for the hunter who screws sights on his bow and makes great hits on game all the time than the die hard instinctive shooter who misses and wounds game.


Great post


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

The difference between these two camps is this: The gap, point on, use a sight as a teaching aid side sees nothing wrong with instinctive shooting. This is the side I choose and if that was the only reason (which it's not) it's enough for me.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ethan - 

Trained riflemen in non-combat situations focus on the front sight (post OR aperture) and let the target and rear sight blur. That way, minor oscillations (wobble) can be detected and compensated for. Archers typically do the exact opposite, except in specific circumstances, for the same reason, but in this case, to mask the wobble. A rifle in most situation can be held steadier than a bow and the distances are much greater. 

Kentucky windage means holding the sight off center to compensate for wind or less often, elevation. 

Viper1 out.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ummm Eldermike - I see nothing wrong with gap shooting, sights, compounds, xbows, etc.... - the problems i have is telling a guy asking for help instinctive shooting - to put a sight on his bow, or when gap shooters put "instinctive" in quotes, or claim that nobody really shoots instinctive, or even worse yet - claim that there is no such thing as the subconscious - etc....

I personally believe that instinctive is the best method for bowhunting - but that is my personal opinion and have no issues with guys aiming whatever way that they want - just don't tell me that the way I aim is not how I aim - or that my aiming method is a figment of my imagination, or put it in "quotes" implying that it is not real, etc...

Go back and read through the threads and see how many instinctive guys go into gap threads and totally trash them and then go back and look at every single thread on instinctive shooting and see how the gap shooters trash them - you have it backwards elder - it is you guys doing the trashing and bashing.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I personally believe that instinctive is the best method for bowhunting


The best method for bowhunting is the method that best enables the shooter the utmost accuracy. Being able to proficiently and accurately use several methods is even better.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

Before we get too far off track - the OP asked about improving his "instinctive" shooting.

He's gotten two answers.

1. Keep doing what you're doing (and work harder at it), believing that it will "come together"

or

2. Take a step back and use a more methodical approach.

Assuming the OP is a big boy, he should be able to pick one.

Viper1 out.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

That is not true - he was not told to keep doing what he was doing - he was told to get his form consistent - stop dropping his bow - keep his focus on the target until after the arrow hits, etc...


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

The same thing that will make you a better reference shooter will also make you a better instinctive shooter. Do what you can to make your form as consistent and efficient as possible. 

Instinctive shooters don't have much to offer for instruction on aiming because there is nothing to teach. At best they teach a method of shooting like Asbell or Welch. The reason Welch has good success with his students is he teaches a method of setting up the bow which causes the bow to hit down the line of sight for windage and he builds up the rest to make the elevation hit where the shooter is looking at point blank range. He also teaches a shooter to use secondary references at anchor to improve consistency. 

Getting back on topic, objectively look at your form and improve what you can. That will help you more than anything else.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

sharp said: "Use a release and your scores will improve too - use a clicker and your scores will improve too, get a compound and your scores will improve too - but if you want to shoot instinctive - putting a sight on your bow is the worst thing you could possibly do."

I'm not entirely sure this is true. I do know that, if you want to shoot instinctive, then you need to shoot instinctive. Otherwise, shoot something else (not a big deal).

But, I'd like to relate what happened to me last year. I've got a new home where I can shoot out of my loft, just like a treestand. Plus, I was going on a bear hunt at the end of August. After shooting over 100 arrows per day from when the weather broke, until mid July, my groups began to open up. I was in a panic. So, I put a site on my bow. After all, being a purist at the expense of a wounded bear is not ethical. And, at first, my groups tighened really well! .... But, then they opened up again. 

I found I could shoot as well instinctively as with sights. What I needed was being relaxed, both muscles and mind, and trusting in myself... and good form. 

So, I put the sights on the shelf, and continued on my program to success. 

Personally, I think Sharp is "spot on." I would only add that one has to be patient with oneself. 

It's not much different than learning to shoot free-throws in basketball or pitching a baseball. There are dozens of sports that have similiarities. They involve what we call "eye-hand" coordination. They also involve "muscle memory." That's where good form comes in. And, they involve patience. Meaning, you gotta want to do it over a period of time- otherwise you won't do it and won't be successful. This is also why Sharp is correct - if you want to shoot instinctive, shoot instinctive. As Nike says, "just do it."


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> Ethan -
> 
> Trained riflemen in non-combat situations focus on the front sight (post OR aperture) and let the target and rear sight blur. That way, minor oscillations (wobble) can be detected and compensated for. Archers typically do the exact opposite, except in specific circumstances, for the same reason, but in this case, to mask the wobble. A rifle in most situation can be held steadier than a bow and the distances are much greater.
> 
> ...


Talk about using the front sight..........I've shot CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) from Texas to Tombstone, Ariz and it is all about fast shooting at metal targets. You learn real fast like to use the front sight only, you don't have time to line up front and rear. At each stage, I was in the 60 sec+ time to get thru two loaded pistols, 6 rounds in a Yellowboy and 4 rounds out of a double barrel shotgun. When I learned to use the front sight only, I dropped down into the 20s. Tequila (guy on the TV show about CAS) was in my posse all the time and he was a world champion and when I got down into the 20s on a stage, I would always tell him.......get some of that big man........he would laugh and shoot the stage in 15 to 18 secs.......Thats fast!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> That is not true - he was not told to keep doing what he was doing - he was told to get his form consistent - stop dropping his bow - keep his focus on the target until after the arrow hits, etc...


ummm.....


sharpbroadhead said:


> If you want to shoot instinctively you need to develope good and consistent form - the aiming is the simlple part - you simply pick a spot on your target and keep your attenion focused on that spot through the entire draw and until the arrow impacts the target - and this is the important part - KEEP LOOKING AT YOUR SPOT UNTIL THE ARROW IMPACTS THE TARGET - no matter where it hits - your subconscious will eventually get the arrow to go where you want it - if your form is consistent.


So do you actually read your own posts?
Because for someone who hasn't seen him shoot and knows nothing about his form, you are telling him to just try harder.

Guess what? It ain't working, which doesn't surprise me. Awefully hard to explain how to do something that you don't understand how it works.

-Grant


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Boberau said:


> I found I could shoot as well instinctively as with sights. What I needed was being relaxed, both muscles and mind, and trusting in myself... and good form.


Soooooo what you did was confirm everything was fine with your shooting form and then continued with Instinctive shooting with more confidence, that is pretty much all that has been suggested here in using a sight for a few shots to confirm form is solid and if it is, continue with instinctive learning,if it isn't then put more focus into form and be confident that the instinctive aiming part isn't the problem.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

grant - really - and just how do you know that he was doing what I said he shoudl be doing?- do you know how many guys shoot instinctive and snap shoot and drop their bows and don't keep looking at their spot? - I see this all the time - more often than not. I was just at a big 3D competition and saw many guys doing exactly the opposite of what I recommended the OP to do. Get out and go to some of the big all traditional 3D competitions and watch the shooters - have you ever been to a traditional competition that had more than 10 or 20 guys shooting trad? It sure seems like you have not.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've shot with National record holders in Field and Safari, state record holders in all disciplines.
Of course none of them were "instinctive" shooters.

If he throws a sight on there he's not going to be snap-shooting or using inconsistent form, likewise if he tried pick-a-point.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

steve morley said:


> Soooooo what you did was confirm everything was fine with your shooting form and then continued with Instinctive shooting with more confidence, that is pretty much all that has been suggested here in using a sight for a few shots to confirm form is solid and if it is, continue with instinctive learning,if it isn't then put more focus into form and be confident that the instinctive aiming part isn't the problem.


Ahhhh... Maybe you should read what I wrote. Your conclusion would be the wrong conclusion...


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Based on my experience it is my opinion that "instinctive" shooting cannot be taught; it is acquired and cannot be skillfully acquired in a just few weeks or in a 2-day shooting seminar.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> Based on my experience it is my opinion that "instinctive" shooting cannot be taught; it is acquired and cannot be skillfully acquired in a just few weeks or in a 2-day shooting seminar.


I agree...for the average Joe :thumbs_up

I personally have come across of few people who picked it up amazingly well.

What a person can teach is good mechanics/form and teach them how to practice efficiently and effectively....and not how to just fling arrows without much of a purpose.

In regards to aiming....an archer can be taught to get the arrow closer to the eye...which can make the aiming process a whole lot easier...BUT...IMO...based on my research and experience....there is a point where the archer is basically being taught Gap shooting at a lower level of conscious awareness. The closer the aiming reference is to an archer's direct line of sight...the harder it is to not be consciously aware of it at some level if not impossible. Just because an archer only focuses on the target while their aiming reference is blurred within their periphial vision does NOT define it as true instinctive aiming. True instinctive aiming is nearly identical to throwing a ball in regards to how the mind utilizes proprioception and motor/muscle memory.

When an archer is holding anchor for much more than a split second or so....the eyes and mind have more of a chance to pick up on the aiming reference/references more consciously than if an archer swing draws and releases the moment they hit anchor.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ummm Eldermike - I see nothing wrong with gap shooting, sights, compounds, xbows, etc.... - the problems i have is telling a guy asking for help instinctive shooting - to put a sight on his bow, or when gap shooters put "instinctive" in quotes, or claim that nobody really shoots instinctive, or even worse yet - claim that there is no such thing as the subconscious - etc....
> 
> I personally believe that instinctive is the best method for bowhunting - but that is my personal opinion and have no issues with guys aiming whatever way that they want - just don't tell me that the way I aim is not how I aim - or that my aiming method is a figment of my imagination, or put it in "quotes" implying that it is not real, etc...
> 
> Go back and read through the threads and see how many instinctive guys go into gap threads and totally trash them and then go back and look at every single thread on instinctive shooting and see how the gap shooters trash them - you have it backwards elder - it is you guys doing the trashing and bashing.


You have your opinions Ken..I have mine...and as regards to the subconscious..unlike your opinion or those that continue espousing something that can not be proven....mine is based on actual measurable medical facts..not what someone believes is happening with the brain..so to me..what is bad and confusing to those seeking actual facts..your entire argument about the subject of conscious/non-conscious is the root cause of the issue..How much more simpler would it be...if the word never came up in causal conversation about how we do what we do with these bows...Why not just say..we shoot with out thinking about it..and let it go at that..?

Mac


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MAC 11700 said:


> You have your opinions Ken..I have mine...and as regards to the subconscious..unlike your opinion or those that continue espousing something that can not be proven....mine is based on actual measurable medical facts..not what someone believes is happening with the brain..so to me..what is bad and confusing to those seeking actual facts..your entire argument about the subject of conscious/non-conscious is the root cause of the issue..How much more simpler would it be...if the word never came up in causal conversation about how we do what we do with these bows...Why not just say..we shoot with out thinking about it..and let it go at that..?
> 
> Mac



I shoot without thinking.There, does that sound lame or what?

Why not just accept that we in the trad archery world call it instinctive and use the word subconcious and 'let it go at that'?
Wake up and smell the coffee, It is what it is, and you can spend the rest of your life writing these 'mac books' and still won't change the words that people commonly use to describe things.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - the "mac books" - now dat der is funny!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> Are you saying that regardless how knowledgeable and experienced the person is; unless the person is or has been an instinctive shooter he or she could not possibly understand what (it) is, what is possible and not possible, and how in most cases instinctive shooting would stand up against other aiming methods?



Exactly. You nailed it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I agree with Forest on that one


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I shoot without thinking.There, does that sound lame or what?
> 
> Why not just accept that we in the trad archery world call it instinctive and use the word subconcious and 'let it go at that'?
> Wake up and smell the coffee, It is what it is, and you can spend the rest of your life writing these 'mac books' and still won't change the words that people commonly use to describe things.


No..it doesn't sound lame when you say it like that..not at all..

Listen Forrest ..if your not capable of understanding the difference in using a metaphore..then stating that same metaphore is physically real...then I can't help you...but I know several good doctors that can help you with your delusions,because that is all it is...a delusion. I don't want to or need to have to spend the rest of my life explaining this..it's common sense...The problem here arises unless you have none and are too ignorant to realize it..Is this the case with you ? I honestly don't think so... I feel your just running off at the mouth backing your buddy up because you don't like the way I post..or what I have to say...If you can prove me wrong in my beliefs..then do so..if not...get a grip ...get a life...and get the hell over it..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - a totally inappropriate personal attack 

Forest - don't even respond to that - it was totally uncalled for


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> wow - a totally inappropriate personal attack
> 
> Forest - don't even respond to that - it was totally uncalled for


No..not really..it's very direct and to the point...and very much called for...and your's and his childish behaviour is getting really old ...You 2 guys can dish it out...but heaven forbid that you have to take what comes from your post...


Mac


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Well, fellas maybe we should start listening to Sharpbroadhead, he posted a 9.4 average score on a 3-d course.......without the benefit of 11's too........I'd say such a great shot would have no trouble winning the IBO trad worlds this year as well as any number of events he would choose to enter, surely he has been approached by numerous sponsors from bows to clothes to gear....I'll bet companies are just throwing stuff his way to assure him in accepting their sponsorship...... and the money... my gosh, I couldn't imagine what they would offer such a person, maybe Ken will grace us with tales of offers unaccepted........as he must be holding out shooting that same old bow, and in regular clothes too............


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I shoot without thinking.There, does that sound lame or what?
> 
> Why not just accept that we in the trad archery world call it instinctive and use the word subconcious and 'let it go at that'?
> Wake up and smell the coffee, It is what it is, and you can spend the rest of your life writing these 'mac books' and still won't change the words that people commonly use to describe things.


Because the real "we" in the trad archery world are a larger group than the very few who call themselves as the "we". Many of us know what it is and use it. If someone is going to tell others that only they should be descriptive of it and the rest should butt out of the conversation, the onus is on that few to explain why, as such is not the role of the majority. If you want to take a census of opinions on the subject, check how many other forums have such nonsensical and continuous debates on the subject and who is no longer there but who is here, and who follow to make sure the pot stays stirred.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> wow - a totally inappropriate personal attack
> 
> Forest - don't even respond to that - it was totally uncalled for



Sorry,Im just not that strong.:wink: Guys like that make me act childish.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Sanford said:


> Because the real "we" in the trad archery world are a larger group than the very few who call themselves as the "we". Many of us know what it is and use it. If someone is going to tell others that only they should be descriptive of it and the rest should butt out of the conversation, the onus is on that few to explain why, as such is not the role of the majority. If you want to take a census of opinions on the subject, check how many other forums have such nonsensical and continuous debates on the subject and who is no longer there but who is here, and who follow to make sure the pot stays stirred.



Try again,I didn't get much out of that post.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Try again,I didn't get much out of that post.


"We" in the trad archery world do not call shooting instinctively as shooting without thinking. A few do, and here, they tend to challenge any input on the subject otherwise. This forum tends to entertain them better than any other.

Edit: Oh, and some don't care either way but know to follow and bait well.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MAC 11700 said:


> No..it doesn't sound lame when you say it like that..not at all..
> 
> Listen Forrest ..if your not capable of understanding the difference in using a metaphore..then stating that same metaphore is physically real...then I can't help you...but I know several good doctors that can help you with your delusions,because that is all it is...a delusion. I don't want to or need to have to spend the rest of my life explaining this..it's common sense...The problem here arises unless you have none and are too ignorant to realize it..Is this the case with you ? I honestly don't think so... I feel your just running off at the mouth backing your buddy up because you don't like the way I post..or what I have to say...If you can prove me wrong in my beliefs..then do so..if not...get a grip ...get a life...and get the hell over it..
> 
> Mac



Feel better now Mac? I'm ok here. I also know that a couple of weeks ago or so you made a really good post about instinctive shooting. Then next time you turn around and fight over the 'proper' use of commonly used words and phrases. That kinda does not compute for me. One time I think,hey, Mac really is a hunter and instinctive shooter. He gets it.The next time I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how a hunter and instinctive shooter would be so extreme in his hatred for a commonly used term to describe that activity. Two plus two just isn't making four for me on this.

Now Mac, I don't like breaking my own rules. Anybody elses rules are fair game,but not mine. But mac, you have forced my hand here. I'm really getting interested in understanding where you come by all this knowledge of brains and how they work that allows you to be an authority on the subject. I just don't like to ask someone to show credentials or proof off degrees and such, but maybe the time has come. I could be missing out on some great education here. If I'm just being hardheaded,then I want to change.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Sanford said:


> "We" in the trad archery world do not call shooting instinctively as shooting without thinking. A few do, and here, they tend to challenge any input on the subject otherwise. This forum tends to entertain them better than any other.



Gotcha. It just seems to me that the word is ok and commonly accepted among people who shoot bows and arrows. May not be perfectly accurate,but commonly used and understood.
Hey,I even asked once for suggestions that might be more accurate and nobody came up with anything. But,I'll admit that "shooting without thinking" wasn't exactly what I had in mind.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Gotcha. It just seems to me that the word is ok and commonly accepted among people who shoot bows and arrows. May not be perfectly accurate,but commonly used and understood.
> Hey,I even asked once for suggestions that might be more accurate and nobody came up with anything. But,I'll admit that "shooting without thinking" wasn't exactly what I had in mind.


Forrest, I have not been here many years, but I can put together a pretty good narrative of the place just based on that few years. There's lots of opinions, and always heated ones here and there. Expected. Here's where questions folks have end up.

In this forum, the making of "almost every" thread into a referendum on instinctive shooting is universal over just my short history. What does change is the star player, defender of the method, the only one really knows, AND it always seems to center around one person and a few pot stirrers, oh, and the rest of us, too, in opposition . We could go back and drag out about 3 names in just the couple years I've been here, but it will be the same story - one guy against the majority, many long pages, he the underdog.

Funny thing is, this place only seems to be able to support one "star" underdog for instinctive shooting at a time in this regard  Heck, this forum seems to be the only one to support 5 page debates on the subject. One guy, the center of attention in middle of every instinctive debate, almost every helpful thread turned to instinctive debate - pages long. Heck, even though our current star player has been a member here longer than I, I only recently knew of him, funny that. No, we already had one, but after he left, we are back at it again.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Feel better now Mac? I'm ok here. I also know that a couple of weeks ago or so you made a really good post about instinctive shooting. Then next time you turn around and fight over the 'proper' use of commonly used words and phrases. That kinda does not compute for me. One time I think,hey, Mac really is a hunter and instinctive shooter. He gets it.The next time I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how a hunter and instinctive shooter would be so extreme in his hatred for a commonly used term to describe that activity. Two plus two just isn't making four for me on this.
> 
> Now Mac, I don't like breaking my own rules. Anybody elses rules are fair game,but not mine. But mac, you have forced my hand here. I'm really getting interested in understanding where you come by all this knowledge of brains and how they work that allows you to be an authority on the subject. I just don't like to ask someone to show credentials or proof off degrees and such, but maybe the time has come. I could be missing out on some great education here. If I'm just being hardheaded,then I want to change.


This isn't going to be a real short Pete..so..if you want to call it a Mac book..so be it...

I have stated before and will state again.*I am not an expert*...but that surely doesn't mean I am not well versed in the subject.I hold no degrees as yet..and won't return to collage until my sons are well on their way through which ever one they choose in a few short years if... all goes as planned.I put my "education" on hold till such time.When I can devote more time and money.

Where I have come to this information has been a long and tiring road..and have studied as many different collage books on the subject as I could possibly lay my hands on to stay as current as I could and also what I can afford to purchase and resell to buy others,and also what I have garnered from credible sources on the web.Psychology Today...New Scientist tech...Scientific American...to name just a few of these.As to what I have posted prior,all one has to do is find the sources there.The WWW is a wonderful tool to be able to use,and there are usually second printings and ton's of material taken from some of the various sources and put out there if you know how to search & filter....and being such...opens many avenues to explore without as much financial burden.

Does all this give me a "expert" status..hell no..but..with right at 3 years of collage behind me..working towards 3 degrees simultaneously at that time, does give me a lot better insight than most,and working as long as I have in various hospitals,has also given me a rare opportunity to get to know some wonderful physicians whom I call friends that I can ask my layman's questions to when they allow me the chance to.I know full well what I have taken before may or may not transfer...but most of the general studies will and some of the others,so I am basically starting again but not from scratch and not completely in the dark about it... So...is that plain enough for you.? I make no claim,nor ever have as being a expert...but well versed individual,with a almost insatiable appetite at times for learning as much as I can. Now...why even study the human brain on my own as I have...just to stay current,and see what new ideas and discoveries are happening. In hopes of being able to find my nitch in one or more of the new fields of study that will come of all of this...that's why... It's my interest in the subject and how these new discoveries are going to impact not only our lives in the near future...but my kids as well.Knowing what I know and being able to see where some of the new ideas and discoveries will effect myself and family,allows me a unique chance to study certain fields and be ahead of the learning curve if I see things progressing with it, when I do go back full time. Just like this one. I suggest you go read about it and if possible think about what possibilities can come of it. http://www.mannkal.org/downloads/guests/memristormindsthefutureofartificialintelligence.pdf ..Another type of of information that is available to study..is from on-line lectures...one like this...http://faculty.etsu.edu/currie/ras.htm...so...unless you are actively searching out this information,you may never know it exist to see and study on your own. With me being a hospital mechanic by trade and studying electronics and computer science as I have seeing and understanding what is happening with this gives me a real glimpse of the future here, and in case your wondering...needing to know how the brain actually functions...is a very big part of this equation,just to be able to understand how it all ties together and what to look for for references to the subject.

Lastly...understanding the written language is and always has been a very big part of this as well.Being able to string more than a couple of 1 liners together to fully explain something is a major requirement...so...ellipsis and all forgive me for not adhering to your preference of not using them when I try to explain myself and what I know...It is difficult at best to try to explain it in such a brief way.

Hopefully this gives you what you were seeking from me on the matter.

Mac


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

As somebdy else put it so well I think for these Forums just saying I aim/shoot without *having* to think is likely best policy for not getting into an argument. 

A lot of my novice students are all fingers and thumbs at first and it takes a while for them to get a feel for the shot, you see that moment when they stop thinking in terms of the mechanics of the shot and just feel the shot i.e. they stop thinking about every Form detail.


I had similar views to a lot of people on instinctive subconscious and conscious actions here and I've enjoyed Mac's insights into how the human brain is working, I see the logic in his posts and feel I've learnt some good things from him :thumbs_up


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Ok so it's now called no-thinkstinctive?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> As somebdy else put it so well I think for these Forums just saying I aim/shoot without *having* to think is likely best policy for not getting into an argument.


I kinda like referring to the process as indirect or direct aiming - direct requiring more attention to the aiming apparatus, indirect requiring more attention to the intended target. I don't know for me, I give more attention to my form, less on aim. The whole process is very task oriented and requires a lot of our attention somewhere, if not spread out everywhere over steps, even if we give most attention just to the target in the end. Saying we don't "think" about it, either way, can mean we were thinking of something else during the process, or nothing at all. I still see your point. Just my hang-up on terms that can lead to an "autopilot" type interpretation.

I am just more nuts-n-bolts, I guess. I don't think I can eat a bowl of cereal and operate my bow at the same time any more than I can turn my brain off and operate it either.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> Ok so it's now called no-thinkstinctive?


That is funny ....lol..lol..lol

Thanks

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

steve morley said:


> As somebdy else put it so well I think for these Forums just saying I aim/shoot without *having* to think is likely best policy for not getting into an argument.
> 
> A lot of my novice students are all fingers and thumbs at first and it takes a while for them to get a feel for the shot, you see that moment when they stop thinking in terms of the mechanics of the shot and just feel the shot i.e. they stop thinking about every Form detail.
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve ...I don't know everthing...and am still enjoy learning new things everyday.Hopefully what I have been able to share, will bring a different outlook on some of this for others.

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

How many things do you think you can do consciously at the same time? Can you read something and listen to a conversation at the same time? If you think you can try it. 

That is the amazing thing about how God created our brains - we can be, for example driving a car and have our entire conscious attention on the person we are talking to in the passenger seat - and get to where we are going and not even remember the drive - because - believe it or not - we were driving that car at a level below our conscious attention level (this is subconscious). 

You can drive a car on "auto pilot" because your subconscious brain takes over - you cannot - however listen to your wife tell you about her day and at the same time read something you have never read before and retain both - because neither can be don on "autopilot" - both require your conscious attention - and you cannot consciously do more than one thing at a time. 

Our brains are sooooo complex that nobody understands what is going on or how - even the brightest scientists admit that they know very little about the brain - so anytime some guy comes in these forums spouting off medical terms that they read on Wikipedia as if they are an expert on the human brain - well - you know where they are coming from.

Every single day we do things at a subconscious level. Some of those things are learned at first at a conscious level - or at least in part at a conscious level - but then relegated to the subconsious later after they have become ingrained - such as typing, driving a car, etc... 

Some things are not learned at a conscious level and were right from the beginning a subconscious act - such as riding a bicycle, running, throwing a ball, etc... When we learned to ride a bike we never consciously thought about which muscles to engage to balance and which to relax - we just knew we wanted to remain up right and our subconscious brain figured out how to make our bodies do just that. When we throw a basketball into a hoop - we do not consciously calculate distance, the trajectory of the ball based on how hard or soft we throw it, we don't line up anything - we just look at the hoop - place the ball over our heads and throw it at it - the subconscious does all the aiming and calculating necessary to get the ball in the hoop.

It is just amazing that anyone would argue that such things do not occur - we all do these things all the time.

If you type - I mean really type - not the on finger looking at the keyboard stuff - i mean just typing and doing it fast - do you consciously think of all the letters you are hiiting - or do you look at the words and just do it? 

When you talk to someone do you consciously think about all the movements of your lips, mouth, and tongue to pronounce the words you are speaking - or do you just say them?

If you are not consciously thinking about all the movements of your lips, mouth, and tongue when you pronounce words - exactly how is it being done - if not below the conscious level?

I find it funny in this backwards world that guys accuse me of using "pixie dust", "voodoo" and when I refer to the subconscious - but these guys are the ones who must believe that - because they deny that it is our subconscious mind doing it - because if our conscious mind is not doing it - then it is either a part of our mind that is below our conscious awareness or it is magic - I opt for the part of our mind that is below our conscious awareness - and this - btw - is believed by nearly all coaches of nearly all sports - archery included.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ken you like to twist what others say to suit your own views, it's fine to believe what you think but I feel some of the stuff Mac has posted is valid, I still use the word subconsious in archery Forums as everybody here understands it's meaning but I also understand *now* it not an very accurate description of whats actually going on, I'm not going to beat people over the head trying to convince you or anybody else, really just for my own information.

For the record I've never accused you of using "pixie dust", "voodoo" and you know it (just wanted it clear that nobody else thinks that I've said it).


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> we can be, for example driving a car and have our entire conscious attention on the person we are talking to in the passenger seat - and get to where we are going and not even remember the drive - because - believe it or not - we were driving that car at a level below our conscious attention level (this is subconscious).


That is NOT true. If a person driving a car was putting all their conscious attention into the person in the passenger seat the whole time they were driving...they would crash. Their eyes would only be focused on the person and not the road or the other cars within their periphial vision.

Just because an object is blurred within a person's periphial vision does NOT mean they are NOT consciously aware of it.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - I never twisted anyones words or accused you of using those terms - don't know why you think that I did


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> How many things do you think you can do consciously at the same time? Can you read something and listen to a conversation at the same time? If you think you can try it.
> 
> That is the amazing thing about how God created our brains - we can be, for example driving a car and have our entire conscious attention on the person we are talking to in the passenger seat - and get to where we are going and not even remember the drive - because - believe it or not - we were driving that car at a level below our conscious attention level (this is subconscious).
> 
> ...


What qualifications do you have to much such sweeping judgements?

I fly planes, drive cars, ride motorcycles, race sailboats, shoot automatic weapons and I don't do any of those things with anything other than conscious thought. All require multiple fine-motor manipulations based on many external stimuli, and you have to do them while still communicating. The human brain evolved to handle these sorts of things just fine, don't confuse failing to remember something with not being aware of it at the time.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

BlackWolf - wrong - our subconscious mind is more than capable of seeing everything around us - in fact it sees more than we consciously see - the subconscious acts as a filter. We can be looking straight ahead and all of our conscious attention focused on something else - happens all the time.

As an example to illustrate what I am saying - one I have attempted to use before to give an understanding of what I am saying. 

When you buy a new car - suddenly you see that same make, model, and even color almost every single time you drive - did all those cars suddenly get on the road immediately after you bought your car - or where they there all along? Obviously they were there all along - and you saw them all along - just like you see every car all along at a subconscious level - but before you bought your new car and your conscious mind became pre-occupied with that car - your subconsious filtered it out - it saw it - made sure you did not hit it - but you payed little or no conscious attention to it - but now that this particular make and model is on your mind a lot - the subconscious brings it to your conscious attention everytime your are near one.

This is an example that everyone can relate to and understand - at least everyone that has purchased a new car and illustrates quite clearly that our subconsious sees many things that we do not consciously see or pay attention too.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

The brain sends information to the muscles that allows you execute a shot..it's really that simple..from beginning to end.. it has *NOTHING* to do with our natural born instincts.

Muscle memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without *conscious effort*. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems. Examples of muscle memory are found in many everyday activities that become automatic and improve with practice, such as riding a bicycle, typing on a keyboard, typing in a PIN, playing a melody or phrase on a musical instrument, playing video games,[1] or performing different algorithms for a puzzle cube.

*Muscle memory encoding*

The neuroanatomy of memory is widespread throughout the brain; however, the pathways important to motor memory are separate from the medial temporal lobe pathways associated with declarative memory.[8] As with declarative memory, motor memory is theorized to have two stages: a short-term memory encoding stage, which is fragile and susceptible to damage, and a long-term memory consolidation stage, which is more stable.[9]

The memory encoding stage is often referred to as motor learning, and requires an increase in brain activity in motor areas as well as an increase in attention. Brain areas active during motor learning include the motor and somatosensory cortices; however, these areas of activation *decrease* once the motor skill is *learned*. The prefrontal and frontal cortices are also active during this stage due to the need for increased attention on the task being learned.[7]

The main area involved in motor learning is the cerebellum. Some models of cerebellar-dependent motor learning, in particular the Marr-Albus model, propose a single plasticity mechanism involving the cerebellar long-term depression(LTD) of the parallel fiber synapses onto Purkinje cells. These modification in synapse activity would mediate motor input with motor outputs critical to inducing motor learning.[10] However, conflicting evidence suggests that a single plasticity mechanism is not sufficient and a multiple plasticity mechanism is needed to account for the storage of motor memories over time. Regardless of the mechanism, studies of cerebellar-dependent motor tasks show that cerebral cortical plasticity is crucial for motor learning, even if not necessarily for storage.[11]

The basal ganglia also play an important role in memory and learning, in particular in reference to stimulus-response associations and the formation of habits. The basal ganglia-cerebellar connections are thought to increase with time when learning a motor task.[12]

*Retention*

The retention of motor skills, now referred to as muscle memory, also began to be of great interest in the early 1900s. Most motor skills are thought to be acquired through practice; however, mere observation of the skill has led to learning as well.[4] Research suggests we do not start off with a blank slate with regard to motor memory although we do learn most of our motor memory repertoire during our lifetime.[5] Movements such as facial expressions, which are thought to be learned, can actually be observed in children who are blind; thus there is some evidence for motor memory being genetically pre-wired.[5]

In the early stages of empirical research of motor memory Edward Thorndike, a leading pioneer in the study of motor memory, was among the first to acknowledge learning can occur without conscious awareness.[6] One of the earliest and most notable studies regarding the retention of motor skills was by Hill, Rejall, and Thorndike, who showed savings in relearning typing skills after a 25 year period with no practice.[2] Findings related to the retention of learned motor skills have been continuously replicated in studies, suggesting that through subsequent practice, motor learning is stored in the brain as memory. This is why performing skills such as riding a bike or driving a car are effortlessly and ‘unconsciously’ executed, even if someone had not performed these skills in a long period of time.[2]

Reference link right here

So for the record, please never refer to shooting as "Instinctive" again...or any more lame basketball, or slingshot examples. It's a "Learned" behavior.

Here is a definition of Instinct ad nauseum


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

learned instinctive..........I'll buy that.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

voodoofire1 said:


> learned through repitition ..I'll buy that.


Fixed it for ya


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh no - more cutting and pasting from wikipedia to attempt to overide common sense and personal esperiences - i give up - :BangHead:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

The "driving the car' analogy is bogus at explaining the subconscious. Sharp, the fact that you do not remember has nothing to do with your subconscious working the wheel. You are conflating things. You have to consciously operate that car, and our brains are wired, ingeniously, to not need recall of everything we do consciously and repetitively. It was done, you just don't remember it or have the need for recall of your working memory.

Have you ever had a detailed conversation with a person, and then, way later don't remember the conversation when later mentioned. A little prodding of details by the other person, and viola, you start to remember and then put the conversation back together. You just lost the path to the stored event and found a detour. It was there because your conscious brain put it there, not your subconscious.

Same for archery. When it's stated that the subconscious can somehow perform complex calculations, like distance and elevation, better than the conscious, that's a "pixie dust" notion. Just like driving the car, you needed a rationalization process that only comes from your brain that is fully capable of doing the task, just like putting thoughts together to make that conversation you forgot. The fact that you don't remember the calculation process is another fact of the brain other than a subconscious autopilot doing it and hiding it from you.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

So how many pages ago did the Original Poster stop participating??

Matt


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh no - more cutting and pasting from wikipedia to attempt to overide common sense and personal esperiences - i give up - :BangHead:


I'm done with it Ken..I just helped explain what you have been trying to do for several years in less than 5 mins...so *stop* using the *wrong* verbiage.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Sanford - can you read a page from a book you have never read before - say St. Augustine's City of God or Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and at the same time listen to your wife tell you the details of her day and retain both? 

If not - how is it you can drive a car and at the same time listen to the details of your wife's day and retain everything she said - but not be able to even give the color of a car that just passed you? 

How can you not be able to do something as simple as read a page from a book at the same time you are listening to your wife - but can do something as complex and life threatening as driving a car at the same time as listening to your wife - and do both drive and retain what she says equally well? You cannot retain what you read on that book page and what your wife is telling you equally well - and if you claim you can it is simply nonsense - and anyone reading this can test it themselves and see if they can.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh no - more cutting and pasting from wikipedia to attempt to overide common sense and personal esperiences - i give up - :BangHead:


I'm sorry Ken but, everything in that cut and paste is accurate, quantifiable and can be supported by peer reviewed research.

Nice post Moose


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Yewselfbow said:


> I'm sorry Ken but, everything in that cut and paste is accurate, quantifiable and can be supported by peer reviewed research.
> 
> Nice post Moose


Thanks  Have a great day everyone! You too Ken!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Sanford - can you read a page from a book you have never read before - say St. Augustine's City of God or Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and at the same time listen to your wife tell you the details of her day and retain both?


Nope, but I can tell you my subconscious can't do anything useful with the input, either. Tell me, can your subconscious add 2+2=4? If so, how does it calculate?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Sanford said:


> Forrest, I have not been here many years, but I can put together a pretty good narrative of the place just based on that few years. There's lots of opinions, and always heated ones here and there. Expected. Here's where questions folks have end up.
> 
> In this forum, the making of "almost every" thread into a referendum on instinctive shooting is universal over just my short history. What does change is the star player, defender of the method, the only one really knows, AND it always seems to center around one person and a few pot stirrers, oh, and the rest of us, too, in opposition . We could go back and drag out about 3 names in just the couple years I've been here, but it will be the same story - one guy against the majority, many long pages, he the underdog.
> 
> Funny thing is, this place only seems to be able to support one "star" underdog for instinctive shooting at a time in this regard  Heck, this forum seems to be the only one to support 5 page debates on the subject. One guy, the center of attention in middle of every instinctive debate, almost every helpful thread turned to instinctive debate - pages long. Heck, even though our current star player has been a member here longer than I, I only recently knew of him, funny that. No, we already had one, but after he left, we are back at it again.




Yeah, and I suppose that's the way it has to be. Dirty job but somebody has to do it..:fish:

Wait,maybe not. It could be that when ,lets say a newcomer, asks about the secrets to instinctive shooting, you know,threads like this one. Something like 'help learning instinctive shooting' or something to that effect. There are some people here, those outnumbered underdogs, who have a lot to offer and could really explain how it's done. No real secrets or magic involved.
But I bet you already know that never happens. Simple,the people who have no intention of giving the member usable information about how to shoot instinctively, set upon a mission to destroy any possibility of an adult exchange that the person might could learn from. I think it's impossible for such a question to be answered and discussed in an intelligent manner with all the useless jibberish that always takes over the thread. Ever wonder why that happens?

Here's a better one. Ever wonder why that when someone starts a thread about some other method (hardly ever) that we underdogs don't go on a search and destroy mission? Easy,it's not polite to be disruptive in someones thread unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

I think it's because the underdogs around here are more intelligent gentlemen. We don't have the inferiority complexes that would drive us to try and show everyone else how damn smart we are. We only claim expertise in the area of instinctive shooting of arrows with a bow. Not brains or eyes or muscles(yes those are the things that usually interfere) or how they work together. To a certain extent that might be interesting information but not in every thread where the word instinctive is mentioned.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Just because a "scientist" says it does not mean it is accurate.


That is what we have been trying to tell you! :sign10:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

AMEN FOREST! - and on that note - I leave this thread - sick and tired of arguing evertime someone wants help instinctive shooting - and arguing with people who do not even believe it exists coming into a thread for the sole purpose of destroying it - as usual


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

I vote that nobody ever reply to any of these idiotic threads again. How long can you beat a dead horse until you realize it's dead! To continue to fill up these pages with the exact same thing over and over and over again is not using good INSTINCT!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

To the OP (Original poster) start with good habits, build on those. I know that's a simple answer when you are looking for so much more. But it really is that simple. What are good habits? Solid consistent repeatable anchor, consistent draw length, consistent release, all those things have to be learned. Once learned, then focus on accuracy. Think of your shot execution as a solid foundation on which to build your skills. Start with proper stance, after all it's the foundation which you stand on. what about from the waist up? 

Take a look at this young lady:

View attachment 1391217


Now look at a bad example:
View attachment 1391218


Find a coach in your area.... there are so many bad habits an archer can do and not know they are doing it..thereby ingraining those to memory..which is very difficult to correct later. 
There are many books available..some are not worth reading, some are worth their weight in gold. Same thing with videos. You have to be able to see the forest for the trees on your own, and sort through what you need, and what you don't. The only shortcut I know of, which very few get the advantage of experiencing is perfect practice..being taught properly in the beginning, rather than spending years trying to fix issues. I wish you luck in your endeavors.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

*Thread locked for arguing and going off topic. Posts were also removed that had nothing to do with the subject.*

People need to go out and shoot their bows and relax!.


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