# does anyone else hate people who shoot spikes and button bucks?



## lucky buck (Apr 12, 2008)

X2.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

does anyone else hate people who shoot spikes and button bucks? 

Nope.


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## Okie X (Dec 3, 2005)

Your right man!

Every time I shoot a spike I hate myself for it. But I find a nice venison dinner helps me get over it.


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## JC-XT (Feb 3, 2007)

Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


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## bunker (Jul 27, 2009)

Show me receipe's for antlers or tags, then i will change my mind... and no, i have not taken a single deer this season yet, have too passed on many spikes and crotch horns, but let people harvest what they want. Bunker


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Hate's a strong word. I wish they wouldn't but it's outta my control....except on my properties!


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## WNYBowhunter (Jan 15, 2006)

nope
it isn't any of my or anyone else's business what other hunters shoot legally


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## buckhunter2705 (Feb 10, 2010)

depends if its a deer thats 2 years old and got long cow horns which is classified i spike because it only has two antlers then no but if its a young spike and you can see the spikes it upsets me they shoot it and don't let it grow. but it also depends on the states law that they live in. where i live its illegal to shoot spikes but if its a button buck and the person can't see the buttons and takes the deer for a doe i can't get upset at that.


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## jagerace (Sep 22, 2006)

If its legal then I don't question it.


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## blazeC2 (Jan 11, 2010)

not as long as it is legal..


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## vabownut (May 26, 2002)

No what I hate is people that force their opinion on what someone else should shoot down everyones throat .


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## pizzle (Jul 28, 2004)

If you actually hate somebody for what they choose to shoot you have a problem or you're just plain weird.


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## Hoosierflogger (Jan 14, 2009)

Nope.
I only hate people who try to impose their will on everyone else.


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


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## waywardson (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks for hating me...but I forgive you. :darkbeer:


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## drkangel11683 (Jun 5, 2008)

No, but I'm feeling a strong dislike towards you right now.


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

I dont agree with it, but I have no control of what they shoot unless they are hunting on land we control.


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## Richard932 (Jul 6, 2010)

If I'm on public land and have a tag to fill I'll shoot a button but I won't waste mt buck tag on a spike, thats were a family members buck tag comes it.


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## heavyhitter063 (May 23, 2010)

I dont hate em', but i do frown upon it! :sad:


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## paoneshot (Apr 17, 2010)

Hate is a strong word to use. Besides if you are hunting and have an antlerless tag and a lone deer walks up it is kind of hard to determine body size. If it makes the hunter happy then by all means shoot


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## micj_76 (Sep 21, 2009)

pizzle said:


> If you actually hate somebody for what they choose to shoot you have a problem or you're just plain weird.


x2!


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## altman (Feb 1, 2005)

To each his own - as long as it's legal


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## Z7back-straps (Apr 22, 2010)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


X2, and x2 on the one for showing me recipe's for antlers or tags. Honestly i have never shot a spike, but, if i ever get a chance at one your darn right i'm gonna take it, i think there very unique in there own way.:darkbeer:


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## KSGirl (Jan 6, 2010)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


WOW! Really? This is where you want to go with this? Interesting!


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## vabownut (May 26, 2002)

Question I must ask . You say. You hate the guy if he shoots a 1.5 yr old spike right ? How about a 1.5 yr old 8 point is the same hate there


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## CUbowhunter (Aug 21, 2009)

Don't hate them, a lot of these people just have a different mind set about things. They guy that i hunt with refuses to shoot a doe but will shoot any buck with antlers. He shoots a lot of the bucks I let walk every season and we hardly see anything older than 3 1/2 year old deer. It drives me absolutely crazy, but there is nothing I can do about it.


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## DaveJ (Sep 6, 2010)

So you hate the hunter that has a full time job, kids, and other obligations that may only get out a few times a year? That his only chance to harvest a deer is to shoot a button buck. I am sure he would like a monster but I really don't see the problem with hime taking a young deer to eat. I do find it strange that you would hold that against a person.


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## G20 (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm gonna say 5 pages at least.


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## buckhunter2705 (Feb 10, 2010)

now to clarify i don't hate anyone for shooting a spike it just upsets me. Now on a different note it doesn't bother me when a kid shoots a spike. Which in my state if its a kid under sixteen they are allowed to shoot a spike or any deer with hardened antlers regardless of size.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I love peanut butter cups.....


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## Sgt. Beardface (Oct 26, 2006)

No but I hate people who hate me; for not caring about their opinion before I squeeze the trigger. I hunt for the meat horns are always just a bonus; yes it's nice when they are their but if not it's still getting shot.

-Chuck


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## Punch_Free4L (Mar 25, 2007)

Hope I brought enough for everyone.


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## tmkilburn (Oct 13, 2009)

:nyah:
I hate you back.


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## Avalon (Jul 23, 2007)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


lol


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


WELL SAID!!! I agree !!! LOL!


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## JC-XT (Feb 3, 2007)

G20 said:


> I'm gonna say 5 pages at least.


That's almost a guarantee, especially if we can somehow work in a post about how most people who shoot spikes and button bucks use Rage broadheads. :lol:


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## ttank0789 (Apr 9, 2010)

G20 said:


> I'm gonna say 5 pages at least.


beat me to it lol


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

bunker said:


> Show me receipe's for antlers


Then why EVER shoot anything with antlers ?!? If ya can't eat 'em, why waste 'em.... right ?!?


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## Oncombat09 (Sep 10, 2009)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


JC...once again the voice of reason. Thank you. :teeth:


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## stonecoldkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

WNYBowhunter said:


> nope
> it isn't any of my or anyone else's business what other hunters shoot legally


In total agreement with you.


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## tazman7 (Nov 5, 2005)

I have passed on plenty of small bucks this year. If there isnt something brown hanging in my garage by Sunday night ill pop about anything in sight. Im getting hungry over here.


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

Nope, got no problem with it at all. I've even done it a few times.

Did you know that there are also people out there that HATE people that only draw 55# for hunting and yet others that HATE people that shoot light little 350gr arrows. Unreal, isn't it....:darkbeer:


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

I sure am glad a lot of you guys dont hunt around me, there would be no good bucks around.


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## txcookie (Feb 17, 2007)

no I dont waste my hate on someone who just killed an animal they intend to eat. My Good friend got his first deer ever this yr and it was a BB. He was happy and now he is hooked on hunting. Shame on you for casting judgement!!!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

I love them button heads they make great table fair the one I purposely waited to take with my bow this year by letting all the doe walk by is great !!!! See look he went down right under my tree too!!


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## lrbergin (Jan 19, 2009)

Hoosierflogger said:


> Nope.
> I only hate people who try to impose their will on everyone else.


X2

These are really the only hunters I would use the word HATE on. People who feel their way is the only way. These people are the biggest thorn in the side of the hunting community; not the people who shoot perfectly legal spikes.


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

bunker said:


> Show me receipe's for antlers or tags, then i will change my mind... and no, i have not taken a single deer this season yet, have too passed on many spikes and crotch horns, but let people harvest what they want. Bunker


This natural product has been at the market for many years and it has been successfully tested by many men around the world. All of them reported about genera health improvements and many other benefits: better dental health, improved natural abilities to heal wounds, decreased arthritis pains and join swellings, and many more. Velvet Deer Antler is a unique and valuable nutrition supplement, which really works for everyone!


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## vabownut (May 26, 2002)

20 minutes and 2 pages


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

vabownut said:


> 20 minutes and 2 pages


It's all good.


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## JC-XT (Feb 3, 2007)

Stanley said:


> This natural product has been at the market for many years and it has been successfully tested by many men around the world. All of them reported about genera health improvements and many other benefits: better dental health, improved natural abilities to heal wounds, decreased arthritis pains and join swellings, and many more. Velvet Deer Antler is a unique and valuable nutrition supplement, which really works for everyone!


Are those the "Smilin' Bob" commercials that are always on when I'm trying to watch sports? :angry:


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## CTHarvester (Sep 23, 2008)

You would think that a group that is constantly under such scrutiney from antis would try and stick together. What another person shoots legally is their own business. A trophy to one may not be a trophy to another but I have seen plenty of very happy hunters with a small buck. My first was a small buck and it got me hooked on a great sport. It took me two years before I had an opportunity on a deer and to me that small buck was a trophy. There are far more true meat hunters than trophy hunters and if it wasn't for them this sport would be in much more danger. Don't take your right to hunt for granted, if you do there could come a time when it isn't there.


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## jguilbe (Aug 19, 2009)

Hate,MR you have a big problem!!!!!!,how u can hate somebody that is doing something legal.Are u Rush Limbaugh?


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## baz77 (Jan 21, 2003)

I could honestly care less what other people shoot as long as they are happy with it is all that matters


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## Wyatt in PA (Dec 17, 2008)

APAsuphan said:


> I sure am glad a lot of you guys dont hunt around me, there would be no good bucks around.


You live in Iowa, thats like Hugh Hefner not seeing the point of a guy picking up a butterface at 1:30 am, when its closing time, something's gotta give


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## bowhoist2 (Dec 17, 2009)

Personally it is up to the hunter to shoot what they feel is necessary. My property we have a 4pt rule, if your caught killing a spike or button then your out. Different people and properties have their own standards.


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## ghost1 (Mar 1, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


So you HATE my 12 year old because their first deer was a button buck- Why dont you come to PA and say it to his face


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

i dont hate people who kill button bucks or spikes. I do dislike when people do this though. I understand if its a kid or someone new to bow hunting or doesnt get but a couple days to hunt. IF your a die hard hunter who hunts all year and is willing to kill a deer that could be a trophy for someone later then i have a small issue with it. If your broke as a joke and need the meat to help out then i say do what you have to. It seems to be just fine to alot of people and thats fine but dont ***** when you have nothing but jenky little 6 pointers walking your property. YOu deserve it.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

It's funny that the guys from the better known Buck states seem to want to alow the lil ones a free pass..... yet the guys from the states that are not as well known for their bucks seems to think they can shoot any and everything..... anyone see a connection here ?!? LOL!!!


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## Ohio Mossy Oak (Dec 17, 2006)

drkangel11683 said:


> No, but I'm feeling a strong dislike towards you right now.


 * ditto!*


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

ghost1 said:


> So you HATE my 12 year old because their first deer was a button buck- Why dont you come to PA and say it to his face


Thats just a goofy reply, I believe nearly EVERYONE on AT is extremely supportive of any and ALL Youth hunting!!! You just trying to stir the pot even more!


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

JC-XT said:


> Are those the "Smilin' Bob" commercials that are always on when I'm trying to watch sports? :angry:


You may not like Bob looking large, but he likes you.


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## completepassthru (Feb 3, 2008)

I do not hate anyone for shooting any legal deer if thats what they want to shoot. Not everyone cares about big bucks and may get just as excited shooting a spike as you do shooting a big deer. Some guys do not have much time to hunt and take what they get a shot at. To hate someone for shooting a spike or button head is a bit over the top.


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## Z7back-straps (Apr 22, 2010)

Cornfed said:


> It's funny that the guys from the better known Buck states seem to want to alow the lil ones a free pass..... yet the guys from the states that are not as well known for their bucks seems to think they can shoot any and everything..... anyone see a connection here ?!? LOL!!!


hmmm i live in buffalo county wisconsin and i see spikes and nubs registered every day, but yet we have world class bucks here too


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Z7back-straps said:


> hmmm i live in buffalo county wisconsin and i see spikes and nubs registered every day, but yet we have world class bucks here too


Why do I have a feeling that there are a LOT more management minded sportsmen hunting that county than "brown & downers" ?!? LOL!

All the leases and limited access alone in Buff county keeps their quality high!


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## GusGus30125 (Mar 5, 2009)

Well me and some buddies decided that we are going to shoot 1 button buck for every post like the OP's that we see on AT. So for all of you pushy, holier than thou, elitist types, congradulations, you are now part of the problem.


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## redneckone (Nov 2, 2010)

Would someone PLEASE send me a recipe for antlers? AND a trophy only matters in the eye of the beholder. As long as its legal what business is it of yours to judge what deer someone kills, unless they waste it. I hate wasteful hunters. I think people get hung up on this trophy buck thing wayy too much. Trophy hunting should be outlawed. Killing a nice buck when the time arises is always nice but we are hunters, we kill and we eat and we use. We do not waste. In alabama trophy hunting by big hunting clubs is the main cause of the deer overpopulation and killing bucks at all during season has been threatened to be done a way with for a few years until people start trying to do population management. Personally I believe anyone that hunts trophy bucks ONLY should have their hunting rights taken away because they arent sportsmen they are attention seekers. Yes i have killed a few nice bucks, no i will not be jealous if you kill a nice buck I will be happy for you. And yes i shoot does and yearlings and button bucks. No i am not a killing spree fanatic, I have every single one of them in the freezer and i will eat every bit of it, or my friends will. IT's a hunters choice as long as it is legal, there is a reason that they give out a certain amount of tags each year. If you kill only bucks then the population will be very doe heavy and become unhealthy for them. Too many deer and they dont get big. Alabama for instance, there is potential to grow monster bucks but the population is so thick they stay small as a natural balance for food availability. Sorry if i offended anyone this post actually got me a little upset.


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## ACooper1983 (Jun 10, 2005)

personally my belief is lazy hunters shoot the easiest deer in the woods to kill, young ones. i prefer to show my proficiency and kill mature animals. No one on our farms shoots young deer, not even young hunters, teaching young hunters restraint and control is a great life lesson


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## IAHoytshooter (Aug 13, 2009)

Wyatt in PA said:


> You live in Iowa, thats like Hugh Hefner not seeing the point of a guy picking up a butterface at 1:30 am, when its closing time, something's gotta give


If it only worked like that. Took me 8 seasons to get a good buck with my bow.


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## crooked stick (Jul 1, 2006)

Wyatt in PA said:


> You live in Iowa, thats like Hugh Hefner not seeing the point of a guy picking up a *butterface* at 1:30 am, when its closing time, something's gotta give




What exactly is a butterface???


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## Z7back-straps (Apr 22, 2010)

redneckone said:


> Would someone PLEASE send me a recipe for antlers? AND a trophy only matters in the eye of the beholder. As long as its legal what business is it of yours to judge what deer someone kills, unless they waste it. I hate wasteful hunters. I think people get hung up on this trophy buck thing wayy too much. Trophy hunting should be outlawed. Killing a nice buck when the time arises is always nice but we are hunters, we kill and we eat and we use. We do not waste. In alabama trophy hunting by big hunting clubs is the main cause of the deer overpopulation and killing bucks at all during season has been threatened to be done a way with for a few years until people start trying to do population management. Personally I believe anyone that hunts trophy bucks ONLY should have their hunting rights taken away because they arent sportsmen they are attention seekers. Yes i have killed a few nice bucks, no i will not be jealous if you kill a nice buck I will be happy for you. And yes i shoot does and yearlings and button bucks. No i am not a killing spree fanatic, I have every single one of them in the freezer and i will eat every bit of it, or my friends will. IT's a hunters choice as long as it is legal, there is a reason that they give out a certain amount of tags each year. If you kill only bucks then the population will be very doe heavy and become unhealthy for them. Too many deer and they dont get big. Alabama for instance, there is potential to grow monster bucks but the population is so thick they stay small as a natural balance for food availability. Sorry if i offended anyone this post actually got me a little upset.


X2 on that well done-redneckone :cheers: i was thinking of typing something like that myself, just didnt know where to start


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

GusGus30125 said:


> Well me and some buddies decided that we are going to shoot 1 button buck for every post like the OP's that we see on AT. So for all of you pushy, holier than thou, elitist types, congradulations, you are now part of the problem.


Fine, but dont come on here afterwards and complain about how you arent seeing any big deer.


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## redneckone (Nov 2, 2010)

I'm still stuttering.... i mean seriously? wow just wow


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## Hunt24/7NY (Jun 3, 2010)

WNYBowhunter said:


> nope
> it isn't any of my or anyone else's business what other hunters shoot legally


Ditto


BTW I hate T- Rage cause he is an idiot


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## glock-cop (Apr 7, 2010)

I'll I gotta say is shoot what makes you happy, simple as that. Yes I try not to shoot spikes and button bucks. Have I done it before? Yes. Do I regret it? NO


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## tmkilburn (Oct 13, 2009)

ACooper1983 said:


> personally my belief is lazy hunters shoot the easiest deer in the woods to kill, young ones. i prefer to show my proficiency and kill mature animals. No one on our farms shoots young deer, not even young hunters, teaching young hunters restraint and control is a great life lesson


The key words here are "on our farm". Must be nice. Go out and hunt public for a few years where nice deer are few and far between and I bet your tune changes


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## vabownut (May 26, 2002)

Cornfed I'm far from a brown its downer ....... but I'm also happy for anyone that's kills a legal deer . I personally to a point where the little guys just don't do it for me much anymore but that's my choice and id never look down upon anyone else for not agreeing with me .


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## GusGus30125 (Mar 5, 2009)

crooked stick said:


> What exactly is a butterface???


 Everything looks good butterface (but her face.)


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

I just hate people who try to tell other people what they should shoot and make them feel like its less of an accomplishment if the deer they've shot doesn't meet some number they believe makes it a trophy. I'll shoot what I want to shoot and its nobody's business but my own. Its people with your mentality that is ruining this the sport of deer hunting and turning it into an elitist, rich man's sport.


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## noluckalaskan (Aug 18, 2010)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


Really, WOW a girl hunter only, that is BS if my son kills a spike for his first deer I would be so proud. He will know where I stand and he will be able to make the choice


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## bows&benching (Nov 9, 2009)

Wyatt in PA said:


> You live in Iowa, thats like Hugh Hefner not seeing the point of a guy picking up a butterface at 1:30 am, when its closing time, something's gotta give


wyatt, lovin your logic! i agree!!


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## Savage Daddy (Oct 25, 2010)

The only part of his rant that holds any water is the fact that after they shoot a spike or button, they whine about not having any big bucks around. I hunt with a guy like this and after he cries his sob story about where the big bucks are, I tell him "They were in your freezer - you shot them 2-3 years ago". 

Oh - by the way - when they still have spots, - it's easier to pick one and put an arrow through it!


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## Hunt24/7NY (Jun 3, 2010)

Cornfed said:


> It's funny that the guys from the better known Buck states seem to want to alow the lil ones a free pass..... yet the guys from the states that are not as well known for their bucks seems to think they can shoot any and everything..... anyone see a connection here ?!? LOL!!!


Thats right Cornfed NY compares to IL very well........think b4 you type please.


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## PitBull Daddy (Sep 26, 2010)

Butterface=Everything looks great "BUT HER FACE"


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## Hunt24/7NY (Jun 3, 2010)

Threads like this just show how stupid hunters are.....if its legal who are you to tell other hunters what they can shoot.......really where do you get the balls.


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## Dethfromabove (Apr 5, 2004)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.



Lighten up Francis!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

tmkilburn said:


> The key words here are "on our farm". Must be nice. Go out and hunt public for a few years where nice deer are few and far between and I bet your tune changes


precisely his point. YOu dont see big deer on public land because every one a be deer hunter kills everything that they see. the "brown and down" mentality. And until these people get a clue on how to let the deer grow you will never kill a big deer there. If you feel you need the meat to survive then knock your self out. I have killed a small 6 one time and i felt terrible about it. I didnt need the meat and i still to this day have no idea why i shot it. I believe frustration from a bad year and it will never happen again. Until people learn restraint on killing small deer the number of large deer will be lower just the way the numbers work.


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## DenCMSC (Jul 30, 2007)

In a word, NOPE. If it is a legal deer, who am I (or you) to say anything?


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## deadhead (Aug 26, 2004)

any game taken with a bow should be a trophy, be it a doe, button, spike , or absolute monster. it is people that think inches of antler makes a trophy that are really messing up what was and should still be a time for family and friends to get together and enjoy the outdoors without the politics and pressures from qdm. have your ability to go out and hunt stripped away from you, you will see things in a much different light,believe me i know, just being able to go would be great even if i saw nothing and if i got a small doe button spike or monster would be nice, but is only a bonus to being outdoors hunting and being with friends and family. in short shoot what makes you happy and don't let anyone tell you its not a trophy because it is your trophy no matter what.


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## defrost (Feb 21, 2010)

I will shoot a spike if it comes out, you can't put limits on people that aren't you In 7 years of hunting I've only seen three bucks and only shot one.


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## Z7back-straps (Apr 22, 2010)

I once heard that there was a time period when every legal spike was culled from the herd because of widespread belief that these animals would never produce a decent rack. So with this in mind, this coming saturday gun opener first spike i see is going down.....


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## Mapes (Feb 17, 2008)

Nope..their tags,their money...their venison..their family to feed..
And just for you...









button buck...and he was tasty..NOTICE THE SMILE?I was happy..thats all that matters


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## silentdeathtx4 (Aug 2, 2010)

sounds like we have a lot of horn hunters in here, Me I'm a deer hunter.


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## glock-cop (Apr 7, 2010)

Z7back-straps said:


> I once heard that there was a time period when every legal spike was culled from the herd because of widespread belief that these animals would never produce a decent rack. So with this in mind, this coming saturday gun opener first spike i see is going down.....


Let me know when you got one down, I'll grab the chev and we'll throw that TROPHY in the back, and cut em' up and eat em' up.
As Mr.Cook would say "o its so gooood!"


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

Try hunting country that's a hundred times bigger with a tenth of the deer!
Try hunting more than a hundred yards from a fence,more than a 100 yards from the truck!
Try hunting where a "funnel" is more than a mile wide and the animal can see you coming for that mile!
Where the limit is one animal per year!!!!!!!!!!!!
Imagine needing a 60 yard pin!
Imagine hiking 5 to 10 miles at 6 to 10,000 feet.....every day!
Then imagine a doe or spike in your sights!!!!!!!!!!!

It just depends on your perspective and what you consider a trophy!
Sure, a "10 point main frame"(LOL!) every time is my goal,but then again I'm not lucky enough to own a tree stand and hunt small,high deer density private properties within a 100 yards of the truck!
So a button or spike will do.......but I'm not complaining!


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## Z7back-straps (Apr 22, 2010)

I can smell the fryer now!!


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

I agree its not very challenging to kill a 1 1/2 year old and younger buck. I don't hate any one for it but I would be embarrassed if I did it. A mature doe would be more of a trophy to me (more challenging). I do think that if you have never killed a deer you need to shoot the first one that walks by to get one under your belt. But, if you have dozens of deer on the wall whats challenge of shooting a 1 1/2 year old spike. Just my 2 cents.


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## completepassthru (Feb 3, 2008)

ACooper1983 said:


> personally my belief is lazy hunters shoot the easiest deer in the woods to kill, young ones. i prefer to show my proficiency and kill mature animals. No one on our farms shoots young deer, not even young hunters, teaching young hunters restraint and control is a great life lesson


You got to be kidding. You may not see it or care, but this statement comes across as very, very, arrogant. Maybe not everyone is as proficient as you.


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## skinner66 (Jun 5, 2010)

headed out in the morning wish me luck that spike doesn't come out, because it will get a dirt nap!!!


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## huntfish25 (May 29, 2004)

i hate people who try to force other to do what the want them to do. i know people who complain when people kill deer under 130's. not every one see deer every day and dont have great place to hunt. it hard to tell what the deer is until it down


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## *Kandice* (Nov 7, 2010)

I like the young little button bucks....Just made some chili with one and it was AWESOME! Super tender and yummy. You dont have to hunt them, but your dumb because your missing out on some awesome meat. My husband hunts to feed the family...not to get some stupid horns (even though those are nice, we give all our big buck meat away..yuck!)


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## huntin_addict (Jan 25, 2006)

Dethfromabove said:


> Lighten up Francis!


awesome


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## glock-cop (Apr 7, 2010)

completepassthu said:


> You got to be kidding. You may not see it or care, but this statement comes across as very, very, arrogant. Maybe not everyone is as proficient as you.


x2!!


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## ghost1 (Mar 1, 2007)

Cornfed said:


> Thats just a goofy reply, I believe nearly EVERYONE on AT is extremely supportive of any and ALL Youth hunting!!! You just trying to stir the pot even more!


Great grammer, Cornfed(name fits)


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> I agree its not very challenging to kill a 1 1/2 year old and younger buck. I don't hate any one for it but I would be embarrassed if I did it. A mature doe would be more of a trophy to me (more challenging). I do think that if you have never killed a deer you need to shoot the first one that walks by to get one under your belt. But, if you have dozens of deer on the wall whats challenge of shooting a 1 1/2 year old spike. Just my 2 cents.


Good post, I agree with this.


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## uncletj (Feb 28, 2004)

Dont hate em, what ever your happy with . I cant hate someone for shooting a deer its just a deer


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## Z7back-straps (Apr 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by ACooper1983 
"personally my belief is lazy hunters shoot the easiest deer in the woods to kill, young ones. i prefer to show my proficiency and kill mature animals. No one on our farms shoots young deer, not even young hunters, teaching young hunters restraint and control is a great life lesson"

Wish i lived on a deer farm


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## redneckone (Nov 2, 2010)

Some people EAT deer not look at horns on the wall. blah im done with this post....


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

after thinking about it hate is a strong word that ill replace with extremely frustrated. most of the hunters have the mentality that "if i dont shoot it someone else will" 

Im not sure i get the girl or young kid shooting a spike comment. but ill teach my children to shoot the mature animals and let the young baby bucks pass. Teaching the youth hunters of tomorrow how to properly manage wildlife is the key. plenty of does out there. wish i saw the ny buck to doe ratio or estimation.


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

If all I could kill is a spike I wouldn't hunt. I understand hunting public land is hard but a spike is not a trophy and isn't worth my time.


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> I agree its not very challenging to kill a 1 1/2 year old and younger buck. I don't hate any one for it but I would be embarrassed if I did it. A mature doe would be more of a trophy to me (more challenging). I do think that if you have never killed a deer you need to shoot the first one that walks by to get one under your belt. But, if you have dozens of deer on the wall whats challenge of shooting a 1 1/2 year old spike. Just my 2 cents.


yup. said it better than i did.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.



If I am still hunting in December and freezing my butt off, yes I will shoot a spike or button for the freezer. If you would like to send me money for my licenses, I'll let you have input on what I shoot.


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## silentassassin (Jan 22, 2010)

T-Rage said:


> after thinking about it hate is a strong word that ill replace with extremely frustrated. most of the hunters have the mentality that "if i dont shoot it someone else will"
> 
> Im not sure i get the girl or young kid shooting a spike comment. but ill teach my children to shoot the mature animals and let the young baby bucks pass. Teaching the youth hunters of tomorrow how to properly manage wildlife is the key. plenty of does out there. wish i saw the ny buck to doe ratio or estimation.


You should change it to "do you think people who shot spikes and buttons bucks are jackwagons?". It wouldn't be nearly as offensive then.


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## nycredneck (Nov 9, 2007)

Me personally would not, plenty of doe deer around for meat and I am at that stage of my hunting where I will only shoot a bigger buck than my current biggest. 
I will not dislike anyone for shooting a legal deer. Just don't complain about not seeing big ones.


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## The Hood (Jul 5, 2002)

sorry my wife won't let me have hate


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

silentassassin said:


> You should change it to "do you think people who shot spikes and buttons bucks are jackwagons?". It wouldn't be nearly as offensive then.


Want a tissue? Crybaby! :chortle: I still laugh every time I see that commercial.

BTW, hate is an emotion I reserve for things a heck of a lot more important than the legal killing of a deer.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. IMO most new hunters have a tendency to shoot young deer and I can’t blame them. As you progress as a hunter “usually” you get away from that and tend to let the young ones walk. Are there folks that don’t?......sure but I would think they are the minority in the woods and even meat hunters can only fill the freezer til it’s full. If you hunt often and LIVE in an area where big bucks live of course it easy to let the young ones walk. If you think ALL you have to do is let the young ones walk and we will all have the quality of deer you have in IL…..you really need to do more research on whitetails. No doubt they will get bigger the older they get but the environment is a big factor in growing trophy deer not just the age of the buck. I guess when you live where the big one are it’s easy to forget that.


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## Stab (Jun 25, 2009)

Mathias said:


> Hate's a strong word. I wish they wouldn't but it's outta my control....except on my properties!


 +1 I dont no about hate, but I do agree. Let them walk. If you want meat shoot a doe. Let those antlers grow to be something to brag about.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

I go by body size more than anything else. If they look small, I let them walk.
I'm all for QDM, but unless everyone else is too it does'nt work.
Add to that, there was'nt always deer around these parts, you were lucky to even see one during the season. I went many seasons without getting one, and thats hard to forget. Any grown-up deer taken with my bow is a trophy to me. Be it a doe, spike, fork, or 8 pointer.


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## bkolowski111 (Dec 21, 2009)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


If you want to buy my tags, bow, arrows, broadheads, clothing, stands, etc.....then I'll shoot whatever you tell me to shoot!!!!

This is my 8th deer season (I am 21 years old), and I am finally to the point where I can pass a deer. Before that I was shooting everything that came into range, and I certainly don't see a problem with that (especially for young hunters). It's up to the hunter, and as long as its legal I have no problem with them shooting spikes. 

Here is my first deer with a bow.......TASTY button buck! Notice that I am very happy.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Stab said:


> +1 I dont no about hate, but I do agree. Let them walk. If you want meat shoot a doe. Let those antlers grow to be something to brag about.


Shoot a doe now and you have just killed two or maybe three deer.


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## bowhunter55945 (Mar 3, 2007)

vabownut said:


> No what I hate is people that force their opinion on what someone else should shoot down everyones throat .


x10000000


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Shoot a doe now and you have just killed two or maybe three deer.


If you know anything about QDM then thats a good thing.


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## 62backwoodsboy (Aug 16, 2006)

Well dang my hide. I knew a needy family that would appreciate some deer meat,so I thought i'd get them some. I went and shot the first deer that walked by, and yep, it was a button buck. I also paid to have the deer processed for them. Now I find out that i'm hated,no wait, I have extremely frustrated you, and I also should be embarrassed. Gosh dang it,i'm sorry.I'll try to do better.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> If you know anything about QDM then thats a good thing.


I do know a few things about QDM, but I hunt for the meat and really don't get into the whole antler thing.


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## ultratec1971 (Nov 16, 2008)

When archery hunting from a treestand I feel there is no excuse for shooting a button buck,only takes a second to check for nubs


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

i hate people that feel the need to tell people what they should be shooting. when you start paying for my tags then you can tell me what i can and cant shoot. not everyone hunts to get antlers and for bragging rights. and not all of us hunt land where theres doe every where to shoot instead of smaller buck and some land owners dont allow doe to be shot like the land i hunt. ill take what i want to take. if i wait all season and if there only 2 weeks left in the season im taking out a spike if it walks by and did this year. he will taste great. hating someone for using ther tag and being happy they got a deer? so dumb


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## The Hood (Jul 5, 2002)

all I got to say is I turned over a doe to gut her and found balls


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## crooked stick (Jul 1, 2006)

GusGus30125 said:


> Everything looks good butterface (but her face.)



Ohhhh, I must be gettin old.


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## gun870guy (Jun 26, 2009)

I hate rap.

I wish more people would kill deer, and return hunting to the status of "management tool" rather than "social burden" or "trophy sport"


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## WayOfTheSamurai (Apr 17, 2010)

You must be very young.


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## Griz34 (Aug 5, 2009)

WayOfTheSamurai said:


> You must be very young.


That's what I was thinkin'.


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

62backwoodsboy said:


> Well dang my hide. I knew a needy family that would appreciate some deer meat,so I thought i'd get them some. I went and shot the first deer that walked by, and yep, it was a button buck. I also paid to have the deer processed for them. Now I find out that i'm hated,no wait, I have extremely frustrated you, and I also should be embarrassed. Gosh dang it,i'm sorry.I'll try to do better.


Don't worry I forgive you. just kidding. I was not directing my post to anyone who truly needs meat. But, if your deer hunting for meat and you shoot a BB your way behind the game. It will cost a lot less to go to the grocery store and buy meat then it will to hunt for meat. Especially if you waste a tag on a small deer.


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## brandon170 (Jul 5, 2010)

when i see someone who has takin a spike or button buck i tell them congrats. not hate them.


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## OhioBowhunter78 (Sep 25, 2006)

I think that people are allowed to hunt and kill what they want. If a person is hunting for meat and chooses to shoot a Button buck then that is their choice. I try to always practice good management but I can because I kill more then enough deer for me each year and do not rely on it as a major food source. Some do... Kill what you want.


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## truetexan#1 (Aug 12, 2010)

a spike is always going to be a spike so no i dont hate people who hunt to enhance the gene pool


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## nystangkid (Oct 9, 2007)

hates a strong word and rather immature for saying something like that..alot worse things to hate on!!


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Some of you guys just don't know where to look. There is a recipie for antlers. It's under taxidermist in the yellow pages. Big bucks are meant to stuffed and put on the wall to irritate the girlfriend.


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

truetexan#1 said:


> a spike is always going to be a spike so no i dont hate people who hunt to enhance the gene pool


I hope that was a joke


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## OhioBowhunter78 (Sep 25, 2006)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> Don't worry I forgive you. just kidding. I was not directing my post to anyone who truly needs meat. But, if your deer hunting for meat and you shoot a BB your way behind the game. It will cost a lot less to go to the grocery store and buy meat then it will to hunt for meat. Especially if you waste a tag on a small deer.


Alot of people who hunt deer for meat for their family, Do not send it to a butcher. Crazy as it is to think.. There are plenty of people still in this world that can butcher their game. A hunting license and tag is $45 and some tags are $15 so people might have an Average of $25 if they get 3 deer. That is not too bad ven if they get 50 pounds of meat from ea deer... I have seen people in Southern Ohio do this and many just kill whenever they need to.. Season does not matter anything to them because they using meat to help feed their family. I have no issue with that.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

truetexan#1 said:


> a spike is always going to be a spike so no i dont hate people who hunt to enhance the gene pool


That's not true.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

Now I wonder how many people have read this after shooting a spike or button this year and are very proud of it. Now someone wants to come on here with an "I'm better than you" attitude and they feel like now they have done something wrong. Maybe their kill was the high point of their year. If its not your land then don't worry about what anyone else shoots.


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

um its Francene not Francis.


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

OhioBowhunter78 said:


> Alot of people who hunt deer for meat for their family, Do not send it to a butcher. Crazy as it is to think.. There are plenty of people still in this world that can butcher their game. A hunting license and tag is $45 and some tags are $15 so people might have an Average of $25 if they get 3 deer. That is not too bad ven if they get 50 pounds of meat from ea deer... I have seen people in Southern Ohio do this and many just kill whenever they need to.. Season does not matter anything to them because they using meat to help feed their family. I have no issue with that.


Thats fine and dandy but my point is, you wont get 50 lbs of meat from a BB you'll be lucky to get 50lbs. of meat from a mature ohio buck.


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## UKCatsHunter (Sep 25, 2006)

Instead of forcing hate on your fellow hunters who legally take deer, why not hate on the people who want to ban hunting all together.


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## jvanhees (Dec 17, 2006)

if a spike is one mans trophy, Ill respect that


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## jesseo (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm no youth hunter, just late arriving to the party. I shot my first deer this year. It was a spike, and I feel fine about using my buck tag on it. I passed up shots on many spikes and forks last season (which was my first season), and I really, really wanted to eat venison this year. So I have zero regret in shooting a spike.

However, in years to come, I can see myself passing up spikes and forks and waiting for something more challenging. Especially since I have seen larger bucks DAILY since I used my buck tag. I think they know. I swear one even stuck his tongue out at me.


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## jesseo (Feb 16, 2009)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> Thats fine and dandy but my point is, you wont get 50 lbs of meat from a BB you'll be lucky to get 50lbs. of meat from a mature ohio buck.


Are you serious? I thought Ohio had big deer...

My WI spike got me 50 lbs of meat.


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

silentassassin said:


> "do you think people who shot spikes and buttons bucks are jackwagons?".


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe.


 Nope, but I do hate it when other people try to tell me or anyone else what to shoot.

There are lots of hunters (even some on this board) who think that shooting does is wrong. What makes you "more right" than them?
It would be a much better workld if people would stop worrying about other people and take care of themselves.


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## Duck65 (Nov 30, 2005)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


I agree!!


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## OhioBowhunter78 (Sep 25, 2006)

You are a fellow buckeye so I will keep it calm.. Lol But serious... I got 55lbs of meat from an average Doe this year, and get 65-80 easy from from some the big mature bucks. At average 110 pound spike which is common in Ohio should get 40-45pounds of meat. If butchering that is still alot for a family to eat.

I do not shoot spikes or button bucks.. But I dont blame people who do for anything or show anger.

Also, I agree we need to focus on the idiots who want to ban hunting and not argue among fellow hunters.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> If all I could kill is a spike I wouldn't hunt. I understand hunting public land is hard but a spike is not a trophy and isn't worth my time.


If this is true, I can't believe you hunt at all. I personally, along with many others, find enjoyment from hunting in many ways that have nothing to do with what I bring home, if anything at all. If all I could hunt was a squirrel, I would hunt.


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## a1hoyt.ca (Feb 3, 2008)

Wow I feel the same way why kill the future Mr. Big befoer he gets a chance to grow up & be a Monster. Kill a mature doe they eat great & it helps the young does because then they can get the prime feed I have been watching some samll does along with some older ones the last few days they sure push the younger Gen around & right out of the feed. I helped the apple tree drop some apples today & the mature does are pigs I tell you.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Well this post has helped the spike or button shooters feel like they have done a good thing. Its weird to me that people wouldnt want to take a buck with good antlers. Thats kinda part of the game guys. Ive seen at least 15 different spikes and little 6s this year and never once thought of shooting them. Those are the deer that in the future turn into beautiful trophy bucks that you would be proud to hang on your wall. Never really seen any spike buck wall hangers. I believe the bigger problem with people who shoot these young deer is that they dont have the patience to wait for something they will be proud of. I dont care who you are if you drag a spike buck to the tag station your not proud of your accomplishment. You may say it on this post your proud of it but i bet you dont drive around town showing it to your buddies because you know they would laugh and say why did you kill a lab with antlers. unless you live in a town with few jobs and no money for meat then they would wanna come over for dinner


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## GusGus30125 (Mar 5, 2009)

a1hoyt.ca said:


> Wow I feel the same way why kill the future Mr. Big befoer he gets a chance to grow up & be a Monster. Kill a mature doe they eat great & it helps the young does because then they can get the prime feed I have been watching some samll does along with some older ones the last few days they sure push the younger Gen around & right out of the feed. I helped the apple tree drop some apples today & the mature does are pigs I tell you.


The does give birth to those Monsters you speak of.


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## cnorth (Aug 4, 2006)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Hate is a strong word. I would hate to think that I would be bothered by someone shooting a spike and claim that I hate them for doing so...There is plenty of things in the world to get upset about, killig spikes and button heads would not be at the top of my list. I say if one spends their time and money on all the accesories to hunt with and they are happy with a spike then good for them...Who am I to judge another ones trophy???


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## lovestobowhunt (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm still trying to get my first deer. Honestly, whatever opportunity presents itself, whether buck (regardless of size of antlers) or a doe I will try my hardest to get. For my first deer, I would take a spike easily if that was the deer that presented the best shot to me. After my first deer, I would try to find something bigger, but in the end I want to get my animal and I shouldn't be judged or anyone else for that matter on what animal they take legally. 

Colette


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Shoot a doe now and you have just killed two or maybe three deer.


That's right!:thumbs_up



buckeye 12 ring said:


> If you know anything about QDM then thats a good thing.


If you knew anything about QDM you would also know that could be a bad thing.I live in a county that use to be #1 in the state for deer numbers.Blue tongue hit and we went directly to the bottom.It took years and years to recover.20 years later we still don't have half as many as we use to.If you want to talk about being pissed off I can speak that lingo.To add insult to injury our state decided it would be a good idea to allow unlimited antlerless permits statewide for rifle and bowhunters.While some counties had thriving deer numbers that needed to be knocked down some we had to suffer for it.People ate that nanny killin crap up here for a while until all the deer were just about wiped out.Finally people started realizing what they were doing and started laying off of the triggers even tho does were still unlimited.When you can hunt hard for a week straight and not see a deer you know chit is bad regardless of what the commission says.Once we started taking care of our own and stopped killing everything just because we could,we started getting a few deer back.I say we.I never was into shooting does except for fawns.When I hunt northern counties that are over run with deer I'll shoot the hell out of them tho.I've hunted in patches up there and seen over 100 deer a day.After two days of bowhunting up there I had a whole stinking truck bed full of deer lol.That was great fun.People need to have a pretty good idea of what kind of deer numbers they have and go from there.Future deer don't come out of the ass ends of bucks.Once you understand that then you'll have a better idea of how to manage a herd.One more thing.If you are fortunate enough to live somewhere that is overrun with does then you are over run with bucks to.If you cant kill the bucks then that just means you suck lol.


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## zenworks911 (Oct 3, 2006)

People around here hunt mostly for food and shoot the first deer that walks by so they can get on with other things in their life. I can't say it doesn't make sense. Sorry, Zenworks911


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

dw'struth said:


> If this is true, I can't believe you hunt at all. I personally, along with many others, find enjoyment from hunting in many ways that have nothing to do with what I bring home, if anything at all. If all I could hunt was a squirrel, I would hunt.


i hear ya there. i love hunting and I hunt alot. if theres a season open ill be hunting it most likly. i can go a whole season and get nothing and still think it was a great season. i a spike this year and was just as pumped as my bigger deer. i butchered it myself and built a knife using one of his horns and still thinking about what to make with the other. all the trophy hunter stuff is getting annoying. so many people like to belittle people for not shooting the monsters you see on tv. its not all about the antlers. some people actually enjoy just getting out there and spending the time with the family and friends and enjoy just taking a deer and getting that tastey meat


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## HISCRAMENESS (Sep 27, 2010)

Garceau said:


> I love peanut butter cups.....


 x-2


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## Washi (Jan 23, 2005)

It only bothers me if they complain about not seeing good bucks before or after they shoot the little one.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> Well this post has helped the spike or button shooters feel like they have done a good thing. Its weird to me that people wouldnt want to take a buck with good antlers. Thats kinda part of the game guys. Ive seen at least 15 different spikes and little 6s this year and never once thought of shooting them. Those are the deer that in the future turn into beautiful trophy bucks that you would be proud to hang on your wall. Never really seen any spike buck wall hangers. I believe the bigger problem with people who shoot these young deer is that they dont have the patience to wait for something they will be proud of. I dont care who you are if you drag a spike buck to the tag station your not proud of your accomplishment. You may say it on this post your proud of it but i bet you dont drive around town showing it to your buddies because you know they would laugh and say why did you kill a lab with antlers. unless you live in a town with few jobs and no money for meat then they would wanna come over for dinner


what game???? and no patience???? i passed a deer this season and last season and the season before and before. if i only have a week or 2 left im taking what ever i want to get meat in the fridge then i have the whole rest of the season to hold out for a bigger buck. now that i have meat in the fridge ill wait for a bigger deer to shoot. and yup i was happy as hell with my spike i got this year. did i brag about it? no but i dont usually brag about anything i shoot


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## juststartin12 (Dec 6, 2007)

I used to feel the same way until this morning. I went hunting with my girlfriends dad and his cousin. His cousin doesnt have a whole lot and kinda depends on one to make it through tough times. He works night shift and works alot of overtime. He also does not bow hunt. Where I am, the only deer you can shoot with a gun is a buck. He took a spike this morning and was tickled pink with it. To me, I DO NOT get mad or upset when they shoot a spike. They want the deer for meat and not the horns. I have no problem with them taking little deer. It is the people who just go out and shoot the first thing they see and then complain about not having any big bucks on their property. I could see if you could shoot a doe with a gun but you can not here.


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## Jellio (Sep 5, 2007)

Hate is a pretty strong word I can count on one hand the number of people I truly hate in this world. Doesn't matter to me shoot what makes you happy.


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

zenworks911 said:


> People around here hunt mostly for food and shoot the first deer that walks by so they can get on with other things in their life. I can't say it doesn't make sense. Sorry, Zenworks911


It's that way everywhere.Most deer don't just up and die.The majority are killed by hunters and most die before reaching maturity.That's just how it is.If the original poster can't deal with it he needs to find a different hobby.


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## Pager21 (Dec 27, 2008)

I have shot and will continue to shoot button bucks so I can get a buck tag. Where we hunt in the Wisconsin it is earn-a-buck; I prefer to take the younger deer over adult does because the does have a statistically smaller range over their lifetime. This means they take longer to work their way back into the area after population reduction.


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## Savage Daddy (Oct 25, 2010)

I dont care what anyone shoots. You have your meat crowd. You have your antler crowd. You have the guy shooting one to make mittens or so Gramma can make moccasins. But if you have the Happy Family ( 8 point, doe, and fawn ) walk out of the woods last hour of the last day of the season, broadside at 30yards, I have a good idea which one's gonna get the arrow every time....


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Personally I work hard to ensure any non antlered deer I shoot (when we are earn a buck) is not a buck fawn.

But it doesnt bother me in the least if someone shoots one, thats their choice not mine.

I still love peanut butter cups.

But my snack tonight is pop tarts (brown sugar cinnamon of course)


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

I hunt management areas here in Alabama and there is plenty of deer to go around!! I see nothing wrong with shooting a spike as long as it's legal. If it's legal than what does it matter? If deer were that endangered here, then the Alabama Dept of Fish and Game would put a limit on the size of bucks you can shoot. That limit here is 1" or better on one side for management areas. Hell, I've shot unicorns before! To answer your question, No, I don't hate people who shoot legal spikes...


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

For all those who say kill a mature doe you might want to check the article in D&DH about shooting too many mature does being detrimental to the overall heard and causing the young deer to fend for themselves without the older does to show them food sources and security cover. They also claim it actually stresses the younger deer and causes them to move or wander from their core area. In nature the young and old are removed by the predators first the fittest survive regardless of what kind of head gear they have it's natures way. So even if we all pass up button and spike bucks they will still normally be the first to go because they are inexperienced.

If horns are more important than the meat why not just shed hunt, that's almost as challenging, and you get what you want and the buck gets to walk? As for me I don't look down on anyone's deer I'm happy for my fellow man that he made a good shot and recovery. If those who have land and plentiful big bucks feel so bad about it perhaps they should allow some of the less fortunate a chance to kill one of those big bucks, might even make a friend in the process. There's plenty more to hunting than horns and scores...

Oh by the way if you google it somewhere PETA has an article about "Sport Hunting" and one of the biggest beef's (pardon the pun) is how we kill deer just for the horns and let the rest of the deer rot in the field and hide behind being deer herd managers to fill our insatiable hunger for horns. Just remember that as much as you might not like someone killing a spike or button buck there are plenty of people who would like to see you lose your right to take any buck even the big ones, why not save your hate for them as opposed to your fellow bowhunter, and keep us all in the woods....

Thanks, Roger


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## DesignedToHunt (Aug 5, 2008)

Why are threads like this where guys try to act tough & put others down allowed to go on for so long? Here's what it comes down to........you shoot what you want & the guy down the road can shoot what he wants. Last I checked nobody on here was anything special so there isn't a soul in the world that has to gain permission to kill an animal. When a man pays the same amount for a license that you do he has every right to put the tag on whatever he wants.


The best part about this is that the does genetics still make up 50% of that buck fawn yet people will slaughter them and not think twice. More & more studies are being done & have proven that shooting "cull" bucks & such has no impact on the quality of bucks but hey, the experts here on AT obviously know better. Heck, they ALWAYS know what's best for everyone.


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

G20 said:


> I'm gonna say 5 pages at least.


LOL u nailed that one and just barely 4 hrs old too.

Personally, if legal I dont care but I am not inclined to shot a small buck if lots of does around. I will shoot a doe if I want to just shoot somethingfor the meat. I know people that would shoot a doe because its simply a doe


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## Iowa-lefty (Mar 15, 2006)

vabownut said:


> No what I hate is people that force their opinion on what someone else should shoot down everyones throat .


You got that right!!


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


good thing its not up to you who hunts what... what gets me is why people get on here or anywhere and voice hate for other people because they dont hunt like they do, or bend to their ways... i have a question,, whats the difference between you hateing people for their hunting decisions and hateing them for their heritage, skin color or eating habits? and why even be a little angry about it... theres better, and more justifiable things to hate than someone who hunts different... not everyone ... never mind you wont get it... your minds closed,, i hope someday you can see the bigger picture,, but until then go hunt the horns, i and many others will just go enjoy the hunt....


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

Stykbow1 said:


> Oh by the way if you google it somewhere PETA has an article about "Sport Hunting" and one of the biggest beef's (pardon the pun) is how we kill deer just for the horns and let the rest of the deer rot in the field and hide behind being deer herd managers to fill our insatiable hunger for horns. Just remember that as much as you might not like someone killing a spike or button buck there are plenty of people who would like to see you lose your right to take any buck even the big ones, why not save your hate for them as opposed to your fellow bowhunter, and keep us all in the woods....
> 
> Thanks, Roger


Yeah you don't see very many poached spikes laying around with their heads chopped off and the rest left to rot.You can pretty much bet if someone shoots a knot head they plan to eat it.Another good thing about shooting a spike is you can knock his horns off with a tire tool real easy and tag it as an antlerless deer.:sign10:


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't hate anybody that takes game legally, but I don't shoot spikes, button bucks, or does, unless it's legal, and I'm hungry... but that's just me....


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

trophy he is not but what makes a hunter happy is his choice. although i dont agree with the decision.


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

"I don't care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!!" 

Shooting trophies is all fine and good but that's not what God put them here for.He put them here for us to eat.Evidently he thought it was pretty important because he starts talking about it in the first page of the bible.The first thing he did after he created man was he gave us dominion over all of the animals,fish and seed bearing plants.He ended the sixth day by looking over all that he had made and seen that it was "excellent in every way".I believe the big man out ranks ya' just a fuzz.If it's good enough for him then your opinion is kind of over ruled now aint it?


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## Wyatt in PA (Dec 17, 2008)

crooked stick said:


> What exactly is a butterface???


everthing looks good but her face


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## tiuser (Mar 22, 2009)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> "I don't care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!!"...........


What is a trophy???????????????????????? I say any deer you are proud of is a trophy!!!!! Oh and by the way spikes or little racks are not only babies. I have a 3pt shoulder mount on my wall, my first buck, and he was 4.5 yrs old!!!!!!! So, if I didn't shoot him when would he have grown the "TROPHY" rack???


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## Brad Lehmann (Sep 4, 2010)

True spikes need to be culled from the herd, true hunters need to learn to identify true spikes. It always seems to be the novices and the ADHD types that come in to camp with button bucks. I killed a few myself prior to settling down and learning how to assess dear. For crying out load, button bucks and first years spikes still have their cute little baby faces. I was never one to eat veal either. Let the meat develope some flavor.


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## itsslow98 (Aug 3, 2010)

Meat is meat, spike, button, doe, fawn.........ill shoot any one I want if its legal. And I could careless what anyone says. 

Are you the kind that would get mad if I shot a nice buck and didnt pay 500 to get it mounted too?


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## K&K (Aug 10, 2010)

Are you kidding me?? Someone that hates a hunter for taking a deer he has a tag for?? Has to be one of the most ignorant statments I have heard.
If you don't want to shoot a spike then don't shoot them.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

vabownut said:


> No what I hate is people that force their opinion on what someone else should shoot down everyones throat .


I couldn't agree more. Good post Va.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> "I don't care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!!"
> 
> Shooting trophies is all fine and good but that's not what God put them here for.He put them here for us to eat.Evidently he thought it was pretty important because he starts talking about it in the first page of the bible.The first thing he did after he created man was he gave us dominion over all of the animals,fish and seed bearing plants.He ended the sixth day by looking over all that he had made and seen that it was "excellent in every way".I believe the big man out ranks ya' just a fuzz.If it's good enough for him then your opinion is kind of over ruled now aint it?


Even a better post yet. I agree 100%.


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## ozarksbuckslaye (Jul 24, 2008)

tiuser said:


> What is a trophy???????????????????????? I say any deer you are proud of is a trophy!!!!! Oh and by the way spikes or little racks are not only babies. I have a 3pt shoulder mount on my wall, my first buck, and he was 4.5 yrs old!!!!!!! So, if I didn't shoot him when would he have grown the "TROPHY" rack???


That's a good question and a pretty good answer.I killed a spike the other day and its backstraps were mighty tasty.Butterflied about an inch thick,a little Montreal and Cavenders,beat it a little,threw it in hot skillet with a little lard,let the blood come to the top for about a minute slap it on a plate next to some taters and stuff.You betcha Bobby.Them young'uns eat good.Gonna grind the rest of him up and shoot him through a jerky gun along with some others lol.I "quoted" the OP without hitting the quote button.Just wanted to make sure you knew that I didn't say that crap lol.


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## travisn10 (Jan 26, 2010)

You talking about me?


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## old Graybeard (Nov 3, 2005)

Hate is such a strong word


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## eyedoc (Aug 17, 2005)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Nope, not one bit. If they had a sucessful hunt and everything was done legally, a beer and a congratulations are in order.

I do hate hunters that look down on other hunters for taking a spike. Time for hunters to stick together instead of put them down.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

travisn10 said:


> View attachment 938346
> 
> 
> You talking about me?


You all know he is licking his lips from eating peanut butter cups..... I love them too.


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## Hespler (Mar 7, 2008)

No, but you sure are not at the top of my list for cramming your opinion and the way you do things down everyone's throat,,,But then again you knew you would get the reaction you got there for you where just looking for a fight anyway......


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## carbon arrow1 (Jul 9, 2008)

to me every deer is a trophy. I have respect for any animal no matter the size or the size of it's headgear. I am very thankful for the opportunity I have to hunt. as far as anlter restrictions go. be careful what you wish for. they are not helping in Michigan from what my brother in law says. hunting is about the experience, not always the harvest. I would think it would be hard to get kids involved if they had to wait for a "trophy" deer of your standars. many young hunters just want to shoot a buck. they are just as happy to get a spike as they would something a little bigger for their first one. if you really "hate" other hunters that don't hunt the way you want, maybe you should take up a different sport. hunting is supposed to be fun and it seems you have let yourself take the fun out of it.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

No, I sure don't. :wink:


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## 2fast4u (Mar 2, 2008)

So far this year I have not harvested a single deer. I had many chances to shoot does and 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks but chose not to in hopes of having a chance at 1 of the mature bucks that I get pictures of......but thats just me. Now this weekend when WI gun hunting opens and my Dad will be out hunting in his woods which happens to be the same woods I bow hunt I know he will not think twice about shooting a 1.5 year old buck. Should I hate him....Heck no, I will be happy for him because he would be happy with that. In short I hope he gets a chance at a monster buck but I will not hold it against him if he takes a small one and I wouldn't hold it against anyone else either.


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## DMAX-HD (Jan 30, 2005)

My first buck with a bow was a spiker. 

My most memorable hunt.


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## drkeenan (Jul 22, 2010)

Its tough to see the buttons and spikes when you have your 125 yd pin on them imp2:


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## fxdwgkd (Oct 6, 2009)

Careful.........that first step off of you pedestal is a big one.


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## carcus (Dec 10, 2005)

I hate to see young bucks die, especially when it gets drilled by a Ahole rifle road night hunter, this type accounts for about have of the rifle hunters in manitoba. I hate guns as much as I hate to see a young bucks die. Sorry gun hunters, also forgot to mention, pictures of rifle kills belong on rifle forums, this is a archery forum, anybody can kill a deer with gun, sorry gun hunters I am fed up with all the banging!!!!


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## sproulman (Jan 13, 2010)

USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time. 
they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .

they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:


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## K&K (Aug 10, 2010)

WOW sproulman your a real loser.... I think P.E.T.A is looking for people like you.


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## d_miller_20 (Dec 28, 2005)

I have never shot a spike but I would like to. I think they look sweet and would like to get one mounted. Of course I wouldn't do this until it was the end of the archery season here in Ohio.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .
> 
> they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:


Seriously?

How is shooting a 1.5 year old spike any different than a 1.5 year old 8? It certainly doesnt make the hunter any better to shoot the 8......

This is just crazy. Close this thread - before others open their mouths and are known a complete fool.


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## eyedoc (Aug 17, 2005)

sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .
> 
> they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:


What would you say to a hunter that works 6 days a week, and is an avid bowhunter. He gets out 4 times a year, due to work and family commitments. Gets 1 deer in bow range and it is a spike. He takes the shot, harvests a deer and puts some meat in the freezer. Is he/she a slob, or lazy? Absolutely not. 

Sometimes it is better to think, before actually posting....


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## Pine Tag (Sep 27, 2006)

I say that each person should hunt for their own reasons and as long as they use the animal, then hunting has served its purpose. If someone takes a small buck because they want the meat, I'm happy for them in the same way that I'm happy for the guy who takes a big buck.

I would say though that many hunters go through a progression during their hunting career. 

1. Learning to get within range of a whitetail
2. Shooting does/small bucks
3. Shooting does but letting small bucks walk
4. Hunting strictly for big bucks and letting all other deer walk

Not everyone goes through this and some may never end up beyond step 2 . Me personally, I am at step 3 and I don't know if I'll ever be a step 4 person.


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## roosclan (Oct 1, 2010)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Well, then hate me all you want... I don't care. I saw a total of 3 deer last season. 1 big doe, a button buck, and a spike. I don't have a bow yet, so I'm relegated to the post-rut rifle season (that should change next year!). I also have 6 children to feed, so I don't care a whit about antlers. 

I had a bead on the big doe about 80yds off waiting for it to clear a sapling that was near my blind, but it got spooked by something and took off. Lo and behold, along comes the button buck right behind it into range (figured out what ran it off...). Considering I have about 5 days a year that I can hunt, you better believe I shot it. Of course, I didn't know it was a button buck until I found it, but that probably would not have changed anything. I shot the spike on the same land a week later, but in the dim early morning light, the antlers weren't visible at a whole whopping 2" long. They were visible from about 10yds away, so I burned my buck tag on that. 

Would I have preferred to shoot a big doe or two? You bet. If the big doe hadn't been spooked, the little button buck would still be alive. But when you're hunting for food, sometimes you take what you can get.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't hate them. I just don't shoot them. There is nothing wrong with people hunting for meat. Some people may only see small bucks due to the fact that they hunt public land. It's not a trophy to you but it may be for someone else.


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

I WILL NOT shoot a spike or button....Period ..... unless it is a "special" hunt as we do in our state parks as a deer reduction hunt..... other than that I WILL NOT kill a spike or button.....if it is someones first deer that may be ok, but I'd rather see that person or kid pass on them.... a button or spike may turn out to be a monster in a few years....."Let them go so they will grow" !!!!


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## lpdoghunter (Mar 28, 2006)

I will shot a spike opening morning. But i hunt out west and get one deer tag. I can not shot a doe. I travel 7.5 hour to hunt out of state just so i can hunt two deer. After that drive im coming home with meat. You come out here and hunt public land and hold out for a big one. You wont have much meat most years. I have killed my share of wall hangers but spike still get my blood pumping. 

sproulman - come out west bud we will see who is lazy. I havent been in a tree stand in 20 years. We humb a lot of miles and hill. You sir need to take a look in the mirror before you call people lazy and never any good at hunting.

Az meat hunter - Shootint tomorrows throphies Today


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## fmb (Jan 23, 2006)

issues . . . you have them


I'll shoot anything legal anytime I want, hate me, it matters not 

what is it with people that think they are so special that everyone should listen to, agree and follow them? you want someone to hate, hate those people




T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

NO, I would however hate everyone else if they were all shooting 170" bucks and I wasn't!!! Now THAT would SUCK!!!:teeth:


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## eastx (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm actually going out Saturday to hunt either a spike or a doe. Due to antler restrictions in the great state of Texas. We may shoot 2 buck and 2 doe, all seasons combined. Archery opened Oct. 2, rifle opened Nov. 6, Nov. 22 is the last day you can shoot a doe, then it is buck only through the middle of January, with Jan. 3-16 being muzzleloader only. Legal buck have at least one unbranched antler, or an inside spread of 13" or greater. Your may only take one buck with an inside spread of 13" or greater, therefore if you want to fill all of your tags, you have to take a spike, or 3 pt, whatever, just 1 unnbranched antler. Of course I figure there are a load of hunters that only get a spike and not a bigger one and vise versa, some may not see a 13" spread and shoot 2 spikes. I have one doe and my 14" spread 9 pt on the ground, so all I can take is a spike or a doe. I'm probably not going to hunt after Sunday unless I just really want to go get in the stand, because I am not going to go sit out waiting on just a spike. Me, I'm going out thiss weeked to put the mossberg on the first legal deer that walks by my stand. Love it, hate it, whatever, I could care less, it is what I am allowed to do, and what Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife has determined will grow a quality deer population.


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## IlBowhunt (Oct 9, 2009)

When I become a hunter like the OP, I suppose then I will only shoot 180" plus deer. Until then - when I'm out hunting, I'll shoot it if I want to.


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## MSUarcher (Jan 13, 2008)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


x2 on this


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## AfricasNinja (Mar 12, 2009)

It is a tough subject. I wouldn't hate anyone shooting one, but I do know eating tag soup is tough. I passed many young deer my first year up. Before I scored with the first mature buck I saw. Now that was MY choice. Was it rewarding? Absolutely. I can't tell others what to shoot but whenever I bring someone into bowhunting or meet someone new, I do talk about lettin the young ones pass. Because lots of the new guys and gals DO WANT to kill a big buck. So I try you get them into that mindset of "not every day will you see a deer let alone a buck... And not every buck will be the one you want" I do get a kick out of some "frustrated hunters" and I know some personally. They wanna kill a big deer. They see deer early in the season and for whatever reason can't get on deer for the past few sits so they let an arrow fly at whatever walks by. I have a problem with that. Because that's attitude I don't like. This is bowhunting. And we know there will be days we don't see anything let alone kill something. Some people don't get it. They want to kill something. Anything.


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## Backlash (Feb 18, 2008)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Get a life dude!
There are plenty of things in life to hate than fellow hunter. I personally have passed on small bucks this year, but if I had shot one, what gives? You are going to hate me for it?
Point your hate somewhere else.


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## Bowtech's#1 (Feb 21, 2008)

I am not personally going to shoot a button buck or spike but do not look down on others that do. Hunting is an individual sport of where you make the call. When my boys get old enough to hunt and a spike comes in, if they want to kill it I am not going to be anything but pumped for them. Don't impose you own standards on others.


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## awbeck (Nov 19, 2010)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


 
Oh well to each their own. It seems to me the size or sex of the deer you shoot with a bow is a personal decision and if done ethically and legally it doesn't matter what others think. I shoot for meat and if I have a couple tags left towards end of November I am using them on what I have a chance on. I am as happy for the person who shot a button buck or spike as I am for the person that shots a very large buck. What someone else shoots may not be a trophy to you, but very well could be for someone else and it's how they feel that is important.


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## Red Fletch (Apr 25, 2008)

I haven't the slightest problem with anything anyone shoots.....as long as they are not standing over their spike or button buck complaining that there are no big deer to kill. I'd rather they kill a spike or button then the genetic superior 1.5 or 2.5 year old.

Keep in mind all those who ask for the 4 point QDM are only asking their herd to be knocked down to nothing but spikes and dink bucks. Imagine how unhealthy your herd will be with all the 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks with good potential are all killed simply because they had enough points on one side to make them legal. Nothing like destroying good genetics.


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## rnelson786 (Jan 27, 2010)

I think that you should not shoot them if at all possible. I think you might as well take a doe instead. I do think it is ok for kids to take those deer. I also agree that if you don't own the or lease the property then who can reall say to much. Personally I wouldn't take a young deer. I would rather fill the freezer with does and be able to shoot great bucks.


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## J-Daddy (Aug 7, 2003)

Here's a spike for you boys to shoot...As far as spikes go, they dont get much bigger or more mature than this dude.








He's been running some of the land I hunt here in Iowa and he's a hoss...Well over a 250lbs buck and mean as he is big, I've watched him fight bucks and run other bucks out of the fields while chasing does.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

Red Fletch said:


> I haven't the slightest problem with anything anyone shoots.....as long as they are not standing over their spike or button buck complaining that there are no big deer to kill. I'd rather they kill a spike or button then the genetic superior 1.5 or 2.5 year old.
> 
> Keep in mind all those who ask for the 4 point QDM are only asking their herd to be knocked down to nothing but spikes and dink bucks. Imagine how unhealthy your herd will be with all the 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks with good potential are all killed simply because they had enough points on one side to make them legal. Nothing like destroying good genetics.


Theres your answer!!!


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## ghost1 (Mar 1, 2007)

I hate people who hate people who hate people that hate- I hate that


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## ghost1 (Mar 1, 2007)

J-Daddy said:


> Here's a spike for you boys to shoot...As far as spikes go, they dont get much bigger or more mature than this dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kill them all


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## Red Fletch (Apr 25, 2008)

scrapejuice said:


> Theres your answer!!!


If you could only seen how many nice "legal by 4 point requirement" 8's and 10' I let walk this past week it was asounding! All I kept thinking was one to two more years and wow! Now getting that 3.5+ year old to walk by is another story(Well I managed that but got gready at the moment of truth...lol). Getting people to judge deer on the hoof by more then antlers is again a whole challenge in itself. One that may never be able to be taken on successfully.


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## Ksbowhunter88 (May 12, 2009)

Imo If they pay for a tag just like I do then they have every right to shoot what they desire. I hate how you have to shoot 150 inch deer for u to be considered a hunter to me thats not what hunting is about..


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## drenalinhunter1 (Feb 6, 2009)

did the op of this thread truely think anyone was going to agree withhim, and that he was not going to get destroyed by us logical people? My first buck with a bow was a spike, and in my eyes he was a Boone and Crockett, as bowhunters we need to relax a little, not worry so much about age and deer, shoot what makes you excited, that is what the real trophy is, if you get lucky enough to shoot a monster then so be it, if you want to manage your land and let them walk, then so be it, i do the same. :darkbeer:


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

Believe this, there are enough haters in this world already we do not need anymore. The main purpose for deer hunting is deer population control........if not controlled they become pests which spread disease, damage crops and property, cause accidents that can raise insurance cost or worse yet injure or kill people.

If the person paid for a legal tag, hunted in a legal manner, and killed the animal legally, then they have done their part.......QDM is nothing more then the return of commercial hunting we seen in the 20's and 30's........it was for money and nothing more. People playing with deer production simply for money or exposure to sell a product are not doing what deer hunting was established to do, control an animals population at a reasonable level.

I will never hate another hunter, but sometimes I do disagree with their methods or motives and we all have a right to an opinion.............good hunting to you all.

Silenthntr.


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## beachcomber (Mar 6, 2010)

I agree hate is a strong word. I dont care if you shoot a spike. But where I am from you can only shoot one buck, so if you shoot a buck and are happy with it good. Now what angers me is the same guy that shooots the spike goes back in the woods to shoot a doe and a buck walks past thats bigger then his spike. and he cant handle passing this deer and shoots it. I know a guy thats bragging about shooting 4 bucks and several does this bow season. not one of them would score 100. bit if a 120 would walk by him today he would be flinging arrows. This is the hunter i(not hate) but have no use for.


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## drenalinhunter1 (Feb 6, 2009)

i cant remember the product, maybe a supplmental feed or something like it, but their slogan was "success in this business is meausered in inches, don't fall short"

so is hunting now a business? and the only way to succeed is to have the most "inches"? really? To me sucess is knowing that i picked the right spot, saw deer, and hell, maybe even made a great shot on a deer, and put some venison on the grill. JMO


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

From what I have seen, 1 1/2 year old bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods and the rut makes them even dumber. I do love venison but it's the challenge of outsmarting a mature deer that gets me out in the woods everyday. We all bowhunt for different reasons so I see no reason to hate the guy who challenges himself to fill his freezer with the youngsters. Not sure if it's true or not but I have heard a few times that fawns taste better then older deer. All this being said, I still wish more hunters would pass on the little guys so my odds of getting a bigboy could increase a little.


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## Spikealot (May 27, 2009)




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## MKNOX (Jul 8, 2007)

gun870guy said:


> I hate rap.
> 
> I wish more people would kill deer, and return hunting to the status of "management tool" rather than "social burden" or "trophy sport"


Finally a word of reason!!!


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## d_miller_20 (Dec 28, 2005)

Spikealot said:


>


What is up with the Alien LOL?


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## hawgdawg (Sep 8, 2002)

eyedoc said:


> What would you say to a hunter that works 6 days a week, and is an avid bowhunter. He gets out 4 times a year, due to work and family commitments. Gets 1 deer in bow range and it is a spike. He takes the shot, harvests a deer and puts some meat in the freezer. Is he/she a slob, or lazy? Absolutely not.
> 
> Sometimes it is better to think, before actually posting....


Bingo> If you have ample time in the year to hunt, fine, hold out if you want. Maybe some of these posters need to have to walk in others shoes like you described.


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## PennArcher88 (Feb 3, 2010)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


X2. Shoot what you want. Some people arent in it for the trophy, bambi tastes mighty good!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .
> 
> they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:


If this isnt one of the top 5 most ignorant posts on AT ever...... It should be!


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## AfricasNinja (Mar 12, 2009)

Not just about spikes or young deer but related. My usedtobemy buddy wanted to kill only big bucks. Since it was his land I had to listen. I believe he watched too much hunting on tv like many do. Problem was he didn't hunt more than 10 times a season and half of those hunts were less than two hour sits. its so easy to say you wanna kill big deer and nothing but p&y bucks and preach but some people have unrealistic expectations. My ex gf wanted to harvest her first deer. Naturally I felt excited for her hoping she would take whatever deer she wanted. Listening to him talk about big bucks only and never seeing a buck big enough to qualify in his eyes for a month she lost interest. To this day I can see the "big bucks only" attitude put a negative spin in our sport. Hunting for old deer or deer with a lot of bone is a lonely world that many can't handle. I rather see this sport grow than to become commercialized and for elitist only


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## Double"O" (Jun 29, 2010)

the only people i hate are Poachers and the French


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

if you guys quit shooting spikes and BB's, you could get a real trophy like this one! :chortle:

fire away, i've shot my share of spikes and a couple of BB's i thought were doe, oh well, they eat just fine if not better! :thumb:


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## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

I shot a button buck this year. On the estates where I hunt, the owners want the deer dead...and I am happy to help them out!!


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

cityhunter346 said:


> I shot a button buck this year. On the estates where I hunt, the owners want the deer dead...and I am happy to help them out!!


amen!

i shot one last year late season, thought it was a doe at 275 yards...ooops.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2010)

I do not shoot deer so I can BRAG. I shoot them to eat the meat. The only thing I HATE, is someone trying to force their opinion on me and judge me for not agreeing with them. Ive passed two button bucks this season, but I must say the spike I killed is absolutely delicious. Tomorrow morning if his twin walks out within range and a clean ethical shot is offered, he is as big as he's ever gonna get. JMHO


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## RackAssasin (Oct 18, 2010)

JC-XT said:


> That's almost a guarantee, especially if we can somehow work in a post about how most people who shoot spikes and button bucks use Rage broadheads. :lol:


damn. you beat me too it.


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## fraz23 (Aug 7, 2009)

Not what i would do but i wouldnt use the word hate


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## mrmurph (Jul 12, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


No, I don't. You kill a buck, you kill one deer. Kill a doe and you kill countless deer. To each his own, if it's legal go for it.


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## DesignedToHunt (Aug 5, 2008)

sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .
> 
> they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:



The bear cub thing is a joke. Those dudes shoot cubs & then stand over them like they're some macho hunter & they honestly believe that their "manhood" grows because they kill a baby bear. As for the deer part of this response, this is by far one of the dumbest & most useless paragraphs that I have ever seen on here & with the year drawing to an end, you have a very good shot at winning the dumbest post of the year award.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

well NY might start antler restrictions next season so looks like you will have less people to hate. after reading many reviews and polls of the antler restriction in certain parts of NY most seem to say they havnt seen any special out come from it. guess we will see if its passed.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .
> 
> they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:


This is perhaps one of the meanest and crulest post I have ever seen on any forum. Its this kind of mentality that further devides hunters. Just what we need. Way to go champ!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 13, 2005)

Button Bucks are a waste to me but who cares about a spike. BTW, a 4point rule doesn’t always work. I passed a 1.5 yo 8point basket rack 2 different times this year. He would have been legal with the 4 point rule and that would be a true waste of good genetics. That will be an awesome deer in 3 or 4 years if he makes it.

We have a 13" rule. They have to be outside the ears or a spike to be legal where I hunt and it really is helping grow big deer. This protects the 1.5 and about half of the 2.5 yo bucks. 

But to answer the question no I don’t "hate" people for shooting a spike or button. Depending on where you hunt I would rather they get shot than a doe if there are low deer numbers in the area.


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## Matt Musto (May 12, 2008)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


Classic......Stanley:set1_rolf2:


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 13, 2005)

DesignedToHunt said:


> The bear cub thing is a joke. Those dudes shoot cubs & then stand over them like they're some macho hunter & they honestly believe that their "manhood" grows because they kill a baby bear. As for the deer part of this response, this is by far one of the dumbest & most useless paragraphs that I have ever seen on here & with the year drawing to an end, you have a very good shot at winning the dumbest post of the year award.


yep.. pretty bad post. Sounds like ol sproul is a little, wait a LOT closed minded and judgemental


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

redneckone said:


> Would someone PLEASE send me a recipe for antlers? AND a trophy only matters in the eye of the beholder. As long as its legal what business is it of yours to judge what deer someone kills, unless they waste it. I hate wasteful hunters. I think people get hung up on this trophy buck thing wayy too much. Trophy hunting should be outlawed. Killing a nice buck when the time arises is always nice but we are hunters, we kill and we eat and we use. We do not waste. In alabama trophy hunting by big hunting clubs is the main cause of the deer overpopulation and killing bucks at all during season has been threatened to be done a way with for a few years until people start trying to do population management. Personally I believe anyone that hunts trophy bucks ONLY should have their hunting rights taken away because they arent sportsmen they are attention seekers. Yes i have killed a few nice bucks, no i will not be jealous if you kill a nice buck I will be happy for you. And yes i shoot does and yearlings and button bucks. No i am not a killing spree fanatic, I have every single one of them in the freezer and i will eat every bit of it, or my friends will. IT's a hunters choice as long as it is legal, there is a reason that they give out a certain amount of tags each year. If you kill only bucks then the population will be very doe heavy and become unhealthy for them. Too many deer and they dont get big. Alabama for instance, there is potential to grow monster bucks but the population is so thick they stay small as a natural balance for food availability. Sorry if i offended anyone this post actually got me a little upset.


That my friend is one of the best and truest posts I have ever seen. I agree 100%. Certain areas are just like that. I know because hunt an area like that.


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## huntin_addict (Jan 25, 2006)

DesignedToHunt said:


> The bear cub thing is a joke. Those dudes shoot cubs & then stand over them like they're some macho hunter & they honestly believe that their "manhood" grows because they kill a baby bear. As for the deer part of this response, this is by far one of the dumbest & most useless paragraphs that I have ever seen on here & with the year drawing to an end, you have a very good shot at winning the dumbest post of the year award.


Research a couple of his posts and you may find that he occupies 3 of the top 5 nominees for "dumbest post of the year" award.



sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .
> 
> they are same ones that shoot cub bears at 37 pds.same useless faces standing there.:angry:


I was gonna say I'm sorry, but I'm not, I think you are ignorant.



drkangel11683 said:


> No, but I'm feeling a strong dislike towards you right now.


I agree totally


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## 410gage (Dec 14, 2008)

Of course I do not hate these hunters! Were you born with an attitude, or have something traumatic occur later on in life?


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

Wow! 7 pages and counting!! I think it's all due to the words "I hate..."!


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## ItecKid (Jan 29, 2010)

sproulman said:


> USUALLY THE HUNTERS THAT WERE NEVER ANY GOOD AT HUNTING WILL SHOOT A SPIKE.they just dont know any better and never will amount to anything .i see this type of hunter all the time.
> they have to have best crossbow,could not hit side of barn with recurve or compound.big stomachs hanging out ,USUALLY LAZY ,never were any good at hunting .


Wow. Really? I am a full-time student, and also work a full-time job. If I get five hours of sleep in a night, that's considered a good thing. Most of my weekends are spent catching up on school work or job work. I've been out deer hunting once this season, when I had a couple free hours on a Saturday night. The upcoming Thanksgiving holiday will probably be the only other time this year I get to go deer hunting; you can bet your behind if I see a spike I'll shoot him, and grip his little spike antlers with pride grinning from ear to for a photo moment.

I belong to an indoor archery league too, and shoot at least twice weekly, every week, even in the off season. I've never met you, but I'll bet dollars to donuts I can out shoot you with a vertical bow.

I used to be part of a martial arts demonstration team, too, and would routinely perform acrobat feats, as well as smash my hand through several inches of concrete as part of said demonstrations. So I'm not exactly out of shape, either.

Still want to call me lazy? I don't necessarily approve of people hunting for horns only, but I respect their freedom to choose to do so.


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## terry72 (May 19, 2008)

Garceau said:


> I love peanut butter cups.....


x2.


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## rgcanfield86 (Dec 15, 2009)

JC said it better than anyone. If it's brown, it's down and if it runs it's done. Food is food and big horns are like supermodels......everyone wants them, but only the rich get them regularly (although even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while:teeth. lol


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## passinthrough12 (Mar 11, 2009)

This thread is great!
I'm going to go shoot a spike now, thanks for the inspiration.


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## tyepsu (Jun 9, 2007)

I have to agree with the OP. Here in northcentral PA most hunters shoot the first legal buck they see and then gripe and whine that we don't have any mature buck. No crap Sherlock... if you shoot them when they are babies how the heck are they going to ever grow into something you can be proud of? These same hunters buy doe tags and usually hold onto them. We all hunt for different reasons, however one thing we should all want is a well managed deer herd. A herd that is primarily made of young bucks is not a well managed deer herd. Neither is a deer herd with 5+ doe for every buck. This year a friend of my brother shot a deer that looked smaller than most dogs. I would be totally embarrassed to shoot a deer that size. I had 2 doe tags and a buck tag. I shot a very large doe the first afternoon of season, another mature doe on the 16th of October and a nice 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 year old buck on the morning of October 25th. It seems the people who shoot fawns or spikes are the same people that would shoot a 35 lb cub bear. Way to go macho men. That is something to really be proud of


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## bowhunter55945 (Mar 3, 2007)

passinthrough12 said:


> This thread is great!
> I'm going to go shoot a spike now, thanks for the inspiration.


x2 then Ill post a pic on here for all you keyboard ninjas to complain to me about!


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

I'll keep passing on all the baby deer for you guys to eat but please do the same for me when a huge trophy steps infront of you. I promise I'll even try to eat the horns!!!


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## nevermiss123 (Nov 16, 2010)

You could shoot what ever you want but dont complain when I kill a good 120 class buck and all you've been seeing is spikes


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

kum by ya my lord kum by ya. haha


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## pizzle (Jul 28, 2004)

bkolowski111 said:


> If you want to buy my tags, bow, arrows, broadheads, clothing, stands, etc.....then I'll shoot whatever you tell me to shoot!!!!
> 
> This is my 8th deer season (I am 21 years old), and I am finally to the point where I can pass a deer. Before that I was shooting everything that came into range, and I certainly don't see a problem with that (especially for young hunters). It's up to the hunter, and as long as its legal I have no problem with them shooting spikes.
> 
> Here is my first deer with a bow.......TASTY button buck! *Notice that I am very happy.*


I think you're just laughing at your own hat ! :darkbeer:


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## gridman (Aug 26, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


uhhhhhh......no


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

fishx65 said:


> I'll keep passing on all the baby deer for you guys to eat but please do the same for me when a huge trophy steps infront of you. I promise I'll even try to eat the horns!!!


LOL! I like that idea!!! Great post!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Some of you guys just need an attitude adjustment ?!? LOL! Who's first ?!?


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Only get one buck tag in Minnesota so burn it on a spike guys. Saves the bigger bucks for me. I don't eat antlers but I sure as heck like them hanging on the wall:wink:


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## Cheerioette (Apr 16, 2010)

Not really... my step-dad mistook a button buck for a doe... he didn't know of the differences he should have been looking for. Either way, he made a clean shot, and it only ran about 40 yards before it crumpled to the ground.


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## The Phantom (Aug 13, 2007)

*I'll say it again*

I'm not a trophy hunter. I only have one requirement for shooting a buck and using the either sex tag, it has to be bigger than a doe. I let a three point walk earlier this year because he was small, this years fawn it looked like. Last week I shot a BB that dressed out at 115 pounds. 

Two years ago I had a heart attack and wasn't allowed to hunt after that. Last year I got skunked. This year I filled my antlerless tag with the BB, and still have an option for a buck or doe the rest of the year. I usually shoot the first decent sized deer I can, and see no reason to change. Would I like to get a nice sized buck? Yes, but my life doesn't revolve around that.


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## Dee74 (Jul 26, 2009)

Shoot whatever makes you happy. The land owner where I hunt would love for me to shoot the first six deer that walk out. He is sick of the deer breaking his fence. I usually wait a few weeks and then if I have not had any luck I shoot whatever fills my freezer. Really to hate another hunter because they find a little happiness in something you choose not to do but is legal is just plain ridiculous.


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## 12bhunting (Sep 9, 2009)

Let me get this right man. Your the same guy that does not know what a bedding area is or where to find one unless "you see a deer laying down. On another post you are complaining about not seeing any deer at all. Now your mad because folks shoot a spike? Look man give it some time and pay special attention to hunters that know what they are doing and sooner or later you will figure out how to hunt, maybe then you will not be so jealous of actual hunters. If you want to kill big deer you are going to have to learn all this anyway. By the way...did you finish your homework before you got on the computer?


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## SARASR (Oct 30, 2009)

tyepsu said:


> This year a friend of my brother shot a deer that looked smaller than most dogs. I would be totally embarrassed to shoot a deer that size. I had 2 doe tags and a buck tag. I shot a very large doe the first afternoon of season, another mature doe on the 16th of October and a nice 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 year old buck on the morning of October 25th. It seems the people who shoot fawns or spikes are the same people that would shoot a 35 lb cub bear. Way to go macho men. That is something to really be proud of


First off I have gone years not shooting a deer, seeing yes, shooting at no, shot selection should be rule #1, my wife would have me pass on every mature buck I see through her eyes It is a magestic creature that has beaten the odds and deserves the respect to get the pass, but she would have me shoot every young deer I see as our area is over populated and when it comes down to tender steak there is no comparison
its her fav. and she is not fond of hunting but respects my love for it. For the record if I get a shot at a Big Buck ya I'm taking the shot, but it is far from being my priority when I enter the woods.


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## completepassthru (Feb 3, 2008)

truetexan#1 said:


> a spike is always going to be a spike so no i dont hate people who hunt to enhance the gene pool


This is just not true. It has been proven that alot of spikes given time and nutrition can grow good racks.


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

DaveJ said:


> So you hate the hunter that has a full time job, kids, and other obligations that may only get out a few times a year? That his only chance to harvest a deer is to shoot a button buck. I am sure he would like a monster but I really don't see the problem with hime taking a young deer to eat. I do find it strange that you would hold that against a person.


Well said! I have pictures on the wall of my shop of guys with 150+ bucks and pictures of guys with spikes and 4 points. Why? Because all of these hunters were successful and and proud of their accomplishments. Everyone is congratulated regardless of how much bone is on their deers head.


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## Liv4Rut (Mar 24, 2006)

I think I would cry if I shot a button buck.....


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## zippyz7 (Aug 5, 2010)

soorry dude, i have shot many spikes, and will if I get a chance , i don't have a doe tag this year, and have 6 kids to feed, hope you don't "hate me" to much.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Hate is a strong word. Dislike is a more appropriate term to describe my feeling.


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

T-Rage said:


> sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm!


What gets me close to hate is the mind set that government is the answer. In that you are far from alone. 

You hate people who hunt and you support using the government to push your own personal agenda? Am I reading that right? Maybe next time you should stop and think who it is your sounding like. Sound like a typical New Yorker to me.


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## preyquester (Feb 3, 2004)

stupid post.i hate myself for reading it.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


JC said it perfectly


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## Gunpowder (Sep 30, 2010)

Z7back-straps said:


> I once heard that there was a time period when every legal spike was culled from the herd because of widespread belief that these animals would never produce a decent rack. So with this in mind, this coming saturday gun opener first spike i see is going down.....


I still have a 20 yr old poster I made in college based on Dr. Larry Marchington's Georgia management program that indicated to cull deer under 4 pts (bad genetics), keep the 6-10 pts, and have fun on the 12+ pts. 

I have seen 6-8 different bucks in the past three days. The forked buck yesterday fair game for my son for management purposes in the coming days unless something better comes along (excluding the does we will be taking). He reminds me of one last year that looked just like him. We called him ******. Most likely his dad that spread his defective Genes. These guys are estimated maybe 2-3 years old.

The other buck we saw last night reminds me of "Bullwinkle" we named last year. Bullwinkle was shot and never retrieved/found last year by my neighbor. Now that is genetics I want to keep in the population:wink: Two other trophies were harvested last year as well. in my sq mile. 

So ya. Cull bucks need to be part of a good management plan.


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## JavelinaHunter (Aug 23, 2007)

I shot a NYS button buck this year. Now I think I'm gonna run downstairs, grab one of those tasty venison hotdogs and 
re-read this thread.


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

nodog said:


> Sound like a typical New Yorker to me.


:brick:



JavelinaHunter said:


> I shot a NYS button buck this year. Now I think I'm gonna run downstairs, grab one of those tasty venison hotdogs and
> re-read this thread.


Get them made at Wilson Beef? :tongue: :hungry: :cheers:


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## JavelinaHunter (Aug 23, 2007)

RCL said:


> :brick:
> 
> 
> 
> Get them made at Wilson Beef? :tongue: :hungry: :cheers:


Nope - Bath Packing. Takes a while, but the make mean hotdog. Next deer (if there is one this year) is gonna go to Wilson. My neighbor gave me some sausage they made - incredible stuff....


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## Baz59 (Feb 17, 2003)

ive killed them both....


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## ram216 (Apr 14, 2010)

no are you kidding me? one spikes are a great eating deer, and two spikes will not turn into anything big over their years. Do a little reasearch even forks dont turn into bigger often, so no i dont hate people that do it, its called deer managment to take out a spike so they dont pass thier genes on


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

Outdoor Life or Field & Stream had an article not too long ago about how QDM has ruined many deer camps and caused friends and family to part ways due to some wanting that elusive Uber-Buck and those just looking for any legal deer. I think the commercialism of hunting has caused some hunters to think that if they don't kill mature huge racked bucks they are some how substandard hunters. Yet all these guys do is farm for deer on private property, I'd like to see them hunt PA, NJ, MI, or some other states where hunting pressure is high on public land and see how many hoss bucks they kill. Now if they setup cold turkey on public land nail a huge deer then I will be impressed, until then I'm not.

I also hear time and time again from landowners who have guys come on their property with the promise of reducing the deer herd only to trophy hunt and only shoot big bucks. A friend of mine recently gained access to a piece of property because he is willing to shoot whatever is legal to reduce the herd for the landowner and so far he's shot a couple of does and buttons which really made the owner happy. Guess who will be invited next year and maybe have a chance for a really nice buck!!!

The other thing I don't understand about this, "I let them walk so they can grow theory", is how do you know they won't be hit by a car, killed by predators, get hung up jumping over a fence, shot by another hunter in the area, or have poor genetics and never amount to anything horn wise???? Don't get me wrong that's your prerogative to let a deer walk but you can't have any illusions that _you_ have any control over the deer's environment or survival once it's leaves the area. If we are supposed to be controlling the deer population by hunting and everyone is holding out for old mossy horns how does that help the deer herd?

Bowhunting is way more than scores and racks but sometimes it seems people get so caught up in this stuff they can't see the forrest through the trees and we end up with threads like this where hunters want to impose their personal agenda on everyone else for their own benefit. We all have to share the woods and that means we have to learn to get along and for some that's going to be accepting that spikes and button bucks are just as much a trophy to some as your mossy horn 4 year old ten pointer is to you otherwise we all might have to take up golf....ukey:


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

JavelinaHunter said:


> Nope - Bath Packing. Takes a while, but the make mean hotdog. Next deer (if there is one this year) is gonna go to Wilson. My neighbor gave me some sausage they made - incredible stuff....


Their cracker bologna is some kinda good too........:tongue: :beer:


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## JavelinaHunter (Aug 23, 2007)

Stykbow1 said:


> Outdoor Life or Field & Stream had an article not too long ago about how QDM has ruined many deer camps and caused friends and family to part ways due to some wanting that elusive Uber-Buck and those just looking for any legal deer. I think the commercialism of hunting has caused some hunters to think that if they don't kill mature huge racked bucks they are some how substandard hunters. Yet all these guys do is farm for deer on private property, I'd like to see them hunt PA, NJ, MI, or some other states where hunting pressure is high on public land and see how many hoss bucks they kill. Now if they setup cold turkey on public land nail a huge deer then I will be impressed, until then I'm not.
> 
> I also hear time and time again from landowners who have guys come on their property with the promise of reducing the deer herd only to trophy hunt and only shoot big bucks. A friend of mine recently gained access to a piece of property because he is willing to shoot whatever is legal to reduce the herd for the landowner and so far he's shot a couple of does and buttons which really made the owner happy. Guess who will be invited next year and maybe have a chance for a really nice buck!!!
> 
> ...


VERY well put! Honestly, T rage, do you really HATE me because I may hunt for different reasons or have different hunting goals than you? I personally don't agree with QDM, but because you or others are in favor of it, it does not mean that I do not value your opinion on the subject. What it boils down to is that you DO have different goals than me. Your goals are every bit as valid to me as mine are. IMHO, we are all bowhunters, we are all VERY passionate about our sport. Having a difference in opinion is natural and it IS a good thing. But to say you hate others that don't agree with you really is quite harsh. Good luck this season and I truly do hope you get the big one you're after.


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## Mammal (Aug 12, 2009)

Spikealot said:


>


How'd you get them to pose like that? They always run away from me.


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## joeneal1986 (Oct 26, 2010)

tmkilburn said:


> The key words here are "on our farm". Must be nice. Go out and hunt public for a few years where nice deer are few and far between and I bet your tune changes


x2, i have only hunted for white tail for a short time, largest deer i seen 6pt on trail cam, largest i seen in person 4pt i took a month ago, number of deer i have seen since then? 0, no buck, no doe, no fawn, nothing except for the few that run across the road every now and then. so the way i look at it i got some antlerless tags my freezer is empty, the first deer i see that doesnt have spots is getting dropped, where i hunt i dont have the luxary of being picky, beggers cant be chosers


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## hawgdawg (Sep 8, 2002)

joeneal1986 said:


> x2, i have only hunted for white tail for a short time, largest deer i seen 6pt on trail cam, largest i seen in person 4pt i took a month ago, number of deer i have seen since then? 0, no buck, no doe, no fawn, nothing except for the few that run across the road every now and then. so the way i look at it i got some antlerless tags my freezer is empty, the first deer i see that doesnt have spots is getting dropped, where i hunt i dont have the luxary of being picky, beggers cant be chosers


Are you sure you haven't been to NW Louisiana. Sounds like what happening here right now. Our pine thickets house up a bunch of deer but they don't wanna move much. And these thickets are so thick a man can't walk through them. Been hunting since Oct 1 and have probably only seen 8 deer and none with horns. Time to go nanny whacking.


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## joeneal1986 (Oct 26, 2010)

i wish i seen 8 deer, i have seen 1 this year and i was lucky enought to get a shot plenty on trail cam but there all nocturnel i dont have 1 pic in the day light, i but i will spend 2-3 days a week sitting in the woods till jan 1 thats all i can do


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

Without the time to read the whole thread, I can say I'm sorry to be on your "hate" list. My first deer is for the freezer every year. If it is a BB then oh well. I own no land so management is a moot point. Public land is most of my hunting. If I get permission on someone's land then they make the rules.

It is nice that I prefer does to bucks and HATE people's obsession (but not the people) with nothing but horns and how big they are. Sorry can't eat them so who cares? Maybe I should start a rant about how trophy hunters are ruining the sport for those of us that actually feed our families with game?


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

Stykbow1 said:


> Outdoor Life or Field & Stream had an article not too long ago about how QDM has ruined many deer camps and caused friends and family to part ways due to some wanting that elusive Uber-Buck and those just looking for any legal deer. I think the commercialism of hunting has caused some hunters to think that if they don't kill mature huge racked bucks they are some how substandard hunters. Yet all these guys do is farm for deer on private property, I'd like to see them hunt PA, NJ, MI, or some other states where hunting pressure is high on public land and see how many hoss bucks they kill. Now if they setup cold turkey on public land nail a huge deer then I will be impressed, until then I'm not.
> 
> I also hear time and time again from landowners who have guys come on their property with the promise of reducing the deer herd only to trophy hunt and only shoot big bucks. A friend of mine recently gained access to a piece of property because he is willing to shoot whatever is legal to reduce the herd for the landowner and so far he's shot a couple of does and buttons which really made the owner happy. Guess who will be invited next year and maybe have a chance for a really nice buck!!!
> 
> ...


 Love this post!!!!


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

sawtoothscream said:


> well NY might start antler restrictions next season so looks like you will have less people to hate. after reading many reviews and polls of the antler restriction in certain parts of NY most seem to say they havnt seen any special out come from it. guess we will see if its passed.


You know something the rest of us don't??


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Stykbow1 said:


> Outdoor Life or Field & Stream had an article not too long ago about how QDM has ruined many deer camps and caused friends and family to part ways due to some wanting that elusive Uber-Buck and those just looking for any legal deer. I think the commercialism of hunting has caused some hunters to think that if they don't kill mature huge racked bucks they are some how substandard hunters. Yet all these guys do is farm for deer on private property, I'd like to see them hunt PA, NJ, MI, or some other states where hunting pressure is high on public land and see how many hoss bucks they kill. Now if they setup cold turkey on public land nail a huge deer then I will be impressed, until then I'm not.
> 
> I also hear time and time again from landowners who have guys come on their property with the promise of reducing the deer herd only to trophy hunt and only shoot big bucks. A friend of mine recently gained access to a piece of property because he is willing to shoot whatever is legal to reduce the herd for the landowner and so far he's shot a couple of does and buttons which really made the owner happy. Guess who will be invited next year and maybe have a chance for a really nice buck!!!
> 
> ...


Excellent post. I agree and this goes along with what I have stated in a previous post.


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## 1Badboy (Mar 18, 2009)

ignorance is bliss....


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## Red Fletch (Apr 25, 2008)

Banjo Man said:


> Excellent post. I agree and this goes along with what I have stated in a previous post.


I agree mostly with Stykbow too. As that is how I picked up one of my better properties. I have already shot a couple does off the place as well as a buck. Even went back on multiple occasions to try to remove more does with no buck tag. Brought a guest and sat double on a double doe/buck-doe attempt. All in all I have removed more deer in the first few weeks of the Bow season then his average hunter does all season. I plan to take several more before the season is out. Maybe he'll expand my area to more of the farm if I do my part well. I do let all small bucks walk but I'm indiscriminate on my doe harvests. A doe with button buck automatically gets lit up.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> Some of you guys just need an attitude adjustment ?!? LOL! Who's first ?!?


Bring it on.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Here are my thoughts.....

#1 - I* hate *what deer hunting has turned into. When I started hunting no one ever looked down on another hunter for their kill. Everyone I knew was happy for you no matter what you killed. It wasnt about money or "inches" it was about friendship and hunting. I will continue hunting that way till I die and if you or anyone else doenst like it...... well, you can just go pack sand. I hope all of the trophy hunters kill big bucks and will congratulate them when I see it and if they are decent human beings and real hunters they will do the same to the guys who shoots a spike or anything else for that matter. 

#2 - The OP is an idiot.
#3 - When someone else starts paying for my hunting expenses I might change the way I hunt (unlikely).
#4 - You do what makes you happy and I'll do what makes me happy (keep it legal).
#5 - Unless the landowner has restrictions on the land I hunt, I will kill whatever is legal and have a whole lot of fun doing it.

Good luck to everyone this season !!! (no matter how you choose to hunt)


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

sawtoothscream said:


> i hate people that feel the need to tell people what they should be shooting. when you start paying for my tags then you can tell me what i can and cant shoot. not everyone hunts to get antlers and for bragging rights. and not all of us hunt land where theres doe every where to shoot instead of smaller buck and some land owners dont allow doe to be shot like the land i hunt. ill take what i want to take. if i wait all season and if there only 2 weeks left in the season im taking out a spike if it walks by and did this year. he will taste great. hating someone for using ther tag and being happy they got a deer? so dumb


X2.......

Venison is a part of my families yearly meals. Not because we have to, but because we like it.

Let's see, after the 100 bucks in tags, thousands of dollars in archery equipment, hours, and hours of stand time, that's the most expensive meat you will ever eat.

I've never heard my kid say, " This backstrap would have been better if the deer it came from had more antlers."

LOL....OP, GET A LIFE. :wink:


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## TCDXT (Jan 20, 2008)

Too many different ways to look at this, in my area I have hunted three years and have not seen a buck during daylight hours, I have a small screwed up horned spike on camera and also a 5 pt and if I get the chance I will sling a arrow at them because of the circumstances.
Just got back from Illinois, paid $500 for a tag and let two 4pts and a 3pt walk because of the area and now all I have to mount or eat is my tag. I personally like to let the deer grow that have potential and do not care for the mentallity that if it is brown, it must go down. You have to make your own choices but if you are justifying your hunting by killing small bucks in an area that grows giants then that is your choice.


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## WillieP (Feb 27, 2008)

I was thinking just the opposite Love this little man!! http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1355232&p=1059286919#post1059286919


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## IlBowhunt (Oct 9, 2009)

Stykbow1 said:


> Outdoor Life or Field & Stream had an article not too long ago about how QDM has ruined many deer camps and caused friends and family to part ways due to some wanting that elusive Uber-Buck and those just looking for any legal deer. I think the commercialism of hunting has caused some hunters to think that if they don't kill mature huge racked bucks they are some how substandard hunters. Yet all these guys do is farm for deer on private property, I'd like to see them hunt PA, NJ, MI, or some other states where hunting pressure is high on public land and see how many hoss bucks they kill. Now if they setup cold turkey on public land nail a huge deer then I will be impressed, until then I'm not.
> 
> I also hear time and time again from landowners who have guys come on their property with the promise of reducing the deer herd only to trophy hunt and only shoot big bucks. A friend of mine recently gained access to a piece of property because he is willing to shoot whatever is legal to reduce the herd for the landowner and so far he's shot a couple of does and buttons which really made the owner happy. Guess who will be invited next year and maybe have a chance for a really nice buck!!!
> 
> ...


X2 :thumbs_up


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

I wonder how many hunters on here would truly not get crazy excited if a true monster walked by them. Would any of you pass on this deer because the babies taste better? I've been to many huntcamps and know many hunters here in Michigan. I have yet to meet a fellow bowhunter that does not head into the field with high hopes of seeing a huge buck. I have met many that are not willing to increase their odds of seeing a trophy but ZERO that would not be thrilled to see and kill one. Do any of you think that it's possible to manage a state's deer herd for older bucks AND plenty of meat for those not interested in big racks?


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## Tug08 (Aug 12, 2008)

jc-xt said:


> uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But i don't think that i can say that i hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* i* think they should shoot.


x 2


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## Ybuck (Apr 21, 2007)

no.

I congratulate them on their kill.


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## bowhunter55945 (Mar 3, 2007)

poorman said:


> Here are my thoughts.....
> 
> #1 - I* hate *what deer hunting has turned into. When I started hunting no one ever looked down on another hunter for their kill. Everyone I knew was happy for you no matter what you killed. It wasnt about money or "inches" it was about friendship and hunting. I will continue hunting that way till I die and if you or anyone else doenst like it...... well, you can just go pack sand. I hope all of the trophy hunters kill big bucks and will congratulate them when I see it and if they are decent human beings and real hunters they will do the same to the guys who shoots a spike or anything else for that matter.
> 
> ...


This is all I learned from all these pages!


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

preyquester said:


> stupid post.i hate myself for reading it.



I bet you shoot small bucks. 

I dont hate people who shoot spikes or button bucks but I sure dont like it. Id rather give them a chance to grow. Me and my father almost had a falling out this fall because he shot a 132 and we have much larger bucks to wait for. That 132 would have been 152-172 next year. Shux.


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## stonecoldkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

poorman said:


> Here are my thoughts.....
> 
> #1 - I* hate *what deer hunting has turned into. When I started hunting no one ever looked down on another hunter for their kill. Everyone I knew was happy for you no matter what you killed. It wasnt about money or "inches" it was about friendship and hunting. I will continue hunting that way till I die and if you or anyone else doenst like it...... well, you can just go pack sand. I hope all of the trophy hunters kill big bucks and will congratulate them when I see it and if they are decent human beings and real hunters they will do the same to the guys who shoots a spike or anything else for that matter.
> 
> ...


Very well put. Thank you and good luck to you as well.


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## WEEGEE (Oct 13, 2007)

vabownut said:


> no what i hate is people that force their opinion on what someone else should shoot down everyones throat .


same here too


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

ozzz said:


> I bet you shoot small bucks.
> 
> I dont hate people who shoot spikes or button bucks but I sure dont like it. Id rather give them a chance to grow. Me and my father almost had a falling out this fall because he shot a 132 and we have much larger bucks to wait for. That 132 would have been 152-172 next year. Shux.


You will grow up one day sone its the hunt not the animal .And when your dad is gone and one day he will be you will remember the gay he shoot a deer he wanted and you "almost fell out over it.Grow up kid!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

ozzz said:


> I bet you shoot small bucks.
> 
> I dont hate people who shoot spikes or button bucks but I sure dont like it. Id rather give them a chance to grow. Me and my father almost had a falling out this fall because he shot a 132 and we have much larger bucks to wait for. That 132 would have been 152-172 next year. Shux.


Yeah.......... Becasue a bigger rack is way more important than the relationship with your dad. This is crazy!! It's sad that this is what hunting has come to.


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Its not sad, Im a real hunter and you guys are not. If you are not willing to throw a family member under the bus for a big buck you have no business in the woods! Just kidding, relax guys. Everything is situational. Nothing would ever come between my dad and I especially bow hunting, something that brings us together. I was being very sarcastic when I said we almost had a falling out. That being said we do have a general standard for the deer we harvest and I thought that this particular buck (still a great trophy) was probably under that standard (at best middle of the pack for the deer on his wall). After he saw and couldnt shoot some larger bucks running around he said the same thing I did. I know its about the hunt, havnt got a deer yet this year and am not any less happy than I would be if I had. So calm down old man!


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## deerman10 (Apr 2, 2010)

ozzz said:


> I bet you shoot small bucks.
> 
> I dont hate people who shoot spikes or button bucks but I sure dont like it. Id rather give them a chance to grow. Me and my father almost had a falling out this fall because he shot a 132 and we have much larger bucks to wait for. That 132 would have been 152-172 next year. Shux.


 After reading most of the 8 pages, I told myself I wouldnt respond. But getting into it with your dad for shooting a P&Y buck is just sad.


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## deerman10 (Apr 2, 2010)

deerman10 said:


> After reading most of the 8 pages, I told myself I wouldnt respond. But getting into it with your dad for shooting a P&Y buck is just sad.


 Maybe the "shux" is just sarcasm


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## deerman10 (Apr 2, 2010)

deerman10 said:


> Maybe the "shux" is just sarcasm


 And now I see it is Ozzz, that is good. My dad stopped hunting when I was 13, so I have had to go about it alone and learn things the hard way over the past 25 years. And by the way, yes, I have shot spikes. One was 2 days after I shot a 140 class buck. I was pretty excited to finally tag two deer in one season with a bow.


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## Jellymon (Jun 19, 2010)

You obviously dont hunt Western Washington. Our deer densities are very low and finding anything over a 2pt is considered a big deer! You can sometimes go a few days without seeing a deer. Did I mention you can only see about 10yds in most of our woods its so thick? I will shoot a spike with my bow any day.


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## joelpresmyk8 (Jan 21, 2010)

well being out here in arizona you cant shoot does. ill shoot any buck i can take.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

ozzz said:


> Its not sad, Im a real hunter and you guys are not. If you are not willing to throw a family member under the bus for a big buck you have no business in the woods! Just kidding, relax guys. Everything is situational. Nothing would ever come between my dad and I especially bow hunting, something that brings us together. I was being very sarcastic when I said we almost had a falling out. That being said we do have a general standard for the deer we harvest and I thought that this particular buck (still a great trophy) was probably under that standard (at best middle of the pack for the deer on his wall). After he saw and couldn't shoot some larger bucks running around he said the same thing I did. I know its about the hunt, haven't got a deer yet this year and am not any less happy than I would be if I had. So calm down old man!


Real hunter!!! You are a real confused wanabe hunter is all! Dont you mean you are a " real Joke!" dont you ? The only real you are is "Real lost in your total ignorance of adulthood and deer hunting". Wake up kid you have a whole bunuch of years left to hunt and need to start killing first and worry about trophies later . I see QDMA has brain washed and tainted another empty young mind at the expense of family,freinds, and the hunt ! You need to calm down and just let all people hunt and you can set and not shoot deer for the next 20 years if you want that is the way it works!


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Real hunter!!! You are a real confused wanabe hunter is all! Dont you mean you are a " real Joke!" dont you ? The only real you are is "Real lost in your total ignorance of adulthood and deer hunting". Wake up kid you have a whole bunuch of years left to hunt and need to start killing first and worry about trophies later . I see QDMA has brain washed and tainted another empty young mind at the expense of family,freinds, and the hunt ! You need to calm down and just let all people hunt and you can set and not shoot deer for the next 20 years if you want that is the way it works!



Nevermind, you dont get it.


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

ozzz said:


> I bet you shoot small bucks.
> 
> I dont hate people who shoot spikes or button bucks but I sure dont like it. Id rather give them a chance to grow. Me and my father almost had a falling out this fall because he shot a 132 and we have much larger bucks to wait for. That 132 would have been 152-172 next year. Shux.


i really feel sad for you,, my dad is in a nurseing home slowly dying from alzheimers, im watching my hero and teacher who will never hunt again suffer, he doesnt remember who i am, or even who he is, he no longer can feed himself, change his own clothes, or go to the bathroom, he wears a freaking diaper,,, you are a fool,, change it while you can...................tomorrow may not be the same


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

xman59 said:


> i really feel sad for you,, my dad is in a nurseing home slowly dying from alzheimers, im watching my hero and teacher who will never hunt again suffer, he doesnt remember who i am, or even who he is, he no longer can feed himself, change his own clothes, or go to the bathroom, he wears a freaking diaper,,, you are a fool,, change it while you can...................tomorrow may not be the same


Why are you calling me a fool becuase I choose not to shoot spike or button bucks? and what does that have to do with your dad being in a nursing home?


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

I would shoot an old spike. I would never shoot a button buck. And if you shot one on our families ranch you would never be allowed to hunt there again. We have a 5 year old rule. We got to that rule by not shooting young deer and we have an awesome hunting ranch now. It's pretty simple management


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Hornporn said:


> I would shoot an old spike. I would never shoot a button buck. And if you shot one on our families ranch you would never be allowed to hunt there again. We have a 5 year old rule. We got to that rule by not shooting young deer and we have an awesome hunting ranch now. It's pretty simple management


Right on my friend


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Hornporn said:


> I would shoot an old spike. I would never shoot a button buck. And if you shot one on our families ranch you would never be allowed to hunt there again. We have a 5 year old rule. We got to that rule by not shooting young deer and we have an awesome hunting ranch now. It's pretty simple management


So !! Nobody will loose sleep over not hunting your ground by your rules ."OLD" and "Spike" ?? That is a contradiction of terms and do not belong in the same sentance ever because its a myth in every way improve your food supply and they will grow!


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Hornporn said:


> I would shoot an old spike. I would never shoot a button buck. And if you shot one on our families ranch you would never be allowed to hunt there again. We have a 5 year old rule. We got to that rule by not shooting young deer and we have an awesome hunting ranch now. It's pretty simple management


I can respect the rules of any place I am invited to hunt. But, a 5 year rule? 

I'm not being a wiseazz, but how many people can really tell the difference between a 4, or 5 year old deer, in the span of time it might take to get the shot?


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

my friend scored 2 button bucks this year much better than my tag soup ... when he heard i had zero deer he invited me to a venison loin dinner what a guy ..


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Yeah thats if fine if people want to shoot button bucks. I chose to watch 2 eat out of my food plot for 20 minutes on my last hunt instead of taking them out. Id rather see what they can become and eat a doe. To each their own though.


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> So !! Nobody will loose sleep over not hunting your ground by your rules ."OLD" and "Spike" ?? That is a contradiction of terms and do not belong in the same sentance ever because its a myth in every way improve your food supply and they will grow!


Contradiction of terms??? You obviously haven't a clue. Yes, you can have older spikes. I can assure you of this. My family owns a very sizable low fence ranch in South Texas. We employ a full time biologist and and intern biologist. I can age a buck with the best of them. I was born into whitetail management. And we have an awesome place to hunt. 

Passing deer is not for everyone. It's just the way it is. We shoot any and every 4 1/2 8 point buck we see, and for "trophy" deer 5 1/2 minimum. That's just the way it is on our place. 

It's low fenced...FREE RANGE...and it's a lot of fun to hunt. Un molested BIG BUCK country. I'm heading down on the 15th of December. 

I've invited several of my friends to hunt with us...however, the know about management and are not sloppy killers. They care about the endless amount of time that we have put into managing our deer. 

So you have fun killing dinks, and I'll have fun hammering mature bucks.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I love them button heads they make great table fair the one I purposely waited to take with my bow this year by letting all the doe walk by is great !!!! See look he went down right under my tree too!!


Wow nuke, I knew you were a little off. But I didn't think you would actually intentionally decrease the quality of your deer herd, then brag about it.


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

spiker_01 said:


> I can respect the rules of any place I am invited to hunt. But, a 5 year rule?
> 
> I'm not being a wiseazz, but how many people can really tell the difference between a 4, or 5 year old deer, in the span of time it might take to get the shot?


Aging deer is something that you have to do a lot of, to ever be good at. Unless you have the age structure where you hunt it's gonna be harder to learn. 
I'm blessed with a pretty awesome place to hunt. I get to see the age class. But...on a bad rain year in south Texas we may have the age but not grow the racks as big...still nice but not giant. 

This is just something I was tought at a young age. And it has always been this reality for me. I shot my first buck at the early age of 4! I was sitting on my dads lap. 

My point is, that this management stuff does work. I'll never say it's easy. Whitetail management is for the deer...not me.


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## zara_puppy (Sep 10, 2006)

itsslow98 said:


> Meat is meat, spike, button, doe, fawn.........ill shoot any one I want if its legal. And I could careless what anyone says.
> 
> Are you the kind that would get mad if I shot a nice buck and didnt pay 500 to get it mounted too?


Yeah - I've got one of those guys around. Got a nice 11 and handed him the antlers to check out. He started to give me crap about not mounting it. The cost of a good mount would jack the price of the meat I got way out of line. So instead, I got a decent bow for the kid next door, a freezer full of meat and a really good set of rattling antlers. Even after that I was money ahead. Or I guess I could have had a deer head in the back of the garage.

If a deer field dresses at or over 125 I'm gonna stick it with an arrow if I can. If you are hunting in the stand next to me and take a button I'll be thankful it didn't weigh more for the drag to the truck.

The only thing that aggrevates me is someone calling me to come help get a deer to find out my part of the program is to gut it. If you're going to shoot it, then have the stones to roll up your sleeves and get bloody.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Wow nuke, I knew you were a little off. But I didn't think you would actually intentionally decrease the quality of your deer herd, then brag about it.


If you knew anything about the dispersion of buck fawns at 16 months old then you would know that 9 of 10 button bucks will leave their birth range permanently up to 3 to 25 miles .And it does not matter if you shoot the doe that bore them they will still leave even in optimal habitat at a rate of 89% . So I am not off or decrementing my personal buck at all really I am however taking out someone else's buck for next year and leaving my doe herd in tact . Those are biological facts not hearsay .And they fact that the 16 month old bucks that move to my farm are the ones that guys like you let walk at rate up to 90% of the I love it because I leave my does which are nothing but buck candy and doe bait alone !

This years big old buck of mine from somewhere else originally that I let grow for 3 years was once someone else's button buck miles away that they passes up .I use QDM and deer biology against the heavy duty QDMRs and like it very much every year for the last 36 hunting seasons. So get that whitetail biology 101 book out and study and use it to your benefit like i do .\Someone else looses one I gain a bunch of them every year keep up the good work for me guys pass all them button bucks up for me every year I will take from you when they find new home ranges at 16 months old. So who's deer herd quality am I hurting now ?? Someone elses not mine at all and I could really care less if you want to know the truth.

Here he is I just layed him down last week 204# FD 11 point with dual brows HA HA

Now how off am I ?? I am off like a fox I would say.:wink:






there you go the buck had a G2 and G4 broken off abot two inches up but thats ok he was still grown on my farm and shot there!


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

Well Nuke, the are not leaving our ranch...it's pretty damn big. And we fly 2 heli surveys and radio tag about 10 deer per year.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Hornporn said:


> Well Nuke, the are not leaving our ranch...it's pretty damn big. And we fly 2 heli surveys and radio tag about 10 deer per year.


Iam sure it is but if it is not at least 3 square moles you lost him period


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## public land (Sep 15, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> If you knew anything about the dispersion of buck fawns at 16 months old then you would know that 9 of 10 button bucks will leave their birth range permanently up to 3 to 25 miles .And it does not matter if you shoot the doe that bore them they will still leave even in optimal habitat at a rate of 89% . So I am not off or decrementing my personal buck at all really I am however taking out someone else's buck for next year and leaving my doe herd in tact . Those are biological facts not hearsay .And they fact that the 16 month old bucks that move to my farm are the ones that guys like you let walk at rate up to 90% of the I love it because I leave my does which are nothing but buck candy and doe bait alone !
> 
> This years big old buck of mine from somewhere else originally that I let grow for 3 years was once someone else's button buck miles away that they passes up .I use QDM and deer biology against the heavy duty QDMRs and like it very much every year for the last 36 hunting seasons. So get that whitetail biology 101 book out and study and use it to your benefit like i do .\Someone else looses one I gain a bunch of them every year keep up the good work for me guys pass all them button bucks up for me every year I will take from you when they find new home ranges at 16 months old
> Here he is I just layed him down last week 204# FD 11 point bual brows HA HA
> ...


x2 keep the doe candy and shoot them roaming lil button bucks.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> If you knew anything about the dispersion of buck fawns at 16 months old then you would know that 9 of 10 button bucks will leave their birth range permanently up to 3 to 25 miles .And it does not matter if you shoot the doe that bore them they will still leave even in optimal habitat at a rate of 89% . *So I am not off or decrementing my personal buck at all really I am however taking out someone else's buck for next year* and leaving my doe herd in tact . Those are biological facts not hearsay .And they fact that the 16 month old bucks that move to my farm are the ones that guys like you let walk at rate up to 90% of the I love it because I leave my does which are nothing but buck candy and doe bait alone !
> 
> This years big old buck of mine from somewhere else originally that I let grow for 3 years was once someone else's button buck miles away that they passes up .I use QDM and deer biology against the heavy duty QDMRs and like it very much every year for the last 36 hunting seasons. So get that whitetail biology 101 book out and study and use it to your benefit like i do .\Someone else looses one I gain a bunch of them every year keep up the good work for me guys pass all them button bucks up for me every year I will take from you when they find new home ranges at 16 months old. So who's deer herd quality am I hurting now ?? Someone elses not mine at all and I could really care less if you want to know the truth.
> 
> ...


Ahh, so you are ruining someone else's opportunity to harvest that deer a few years down the road. And how is that better than "QDMRs" who encourage people to pass on young bucks and harvest slickheads for meat? Just so you know, this season I passed on bucks bigger than the one in your pictures. After the gun season I will take out 3 or 4 old nannies.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Hornporn...being that you have a ranch, and can watch the deer grow, I have a question for you.

Do you cull deer?

If so, which deer do you cull?....a 2 1/2 year old spike? 

Also, how many spikes have you seen grow into 8+ point bucks over the years, and how many years do you think is acceptable for them to branch out?


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## silentdeathtx4 (Aug 2, 2010)

Is it called deer season or huge rack season. I dont care what you shoot as long as you are happy with it. I cant stand it when people say I hate people who shoot spikes and buttons, I cant stand people who only hunt for the big racks. I dont think these people are real hunters. 
They probably just keep the head and give the meat to somone else.


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## BowTech Addict (Mar 7, 2007)

T-Rage sounds like you need anger management or something, so my 10 year old son just shot his first deer last weekend (a button buck) and your telling me you hate my son. You dont even know him so that makes you an evil person and evil shall be judged. By the way i might shoot the next spike i see just so you can hate me 2.


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

Yes, we cull the crap out of deer. If we see a two year old spike he will probably get hammered. We have 18 month old bucks with 8 to ten points. Not all of them but a good number of 8's. I've not seen a 2 1/2 old spike turn I to a a bigger buck. 

It all depends on what you management objectives are. We are managing for tens and better. Every year we take a few bucks that gross over 170. This is with 50 years of intense management In south Texas there are many many ranches doing the same thing. It's a way of life down there. I've seen an 2 1/2 year old buck with double drops on a ten pint frame . At 3 1/2 years old he lost the drops and grew his frame. At 4 1/2 we didn't see him and at 5 he showed himself and was a 190 class buck with 3 drops. 

If a buck can't live...he will never grow into what nature intended him to be. 

This has been my experience .


spiker_01 said:


> Hornporn...being that you have a ranch, and can watch the deer grow, I have a question for you.
> 
> Do you cull deer?
> 
> ...


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

spiker_01 said:


> I can respect the rules of any place I am invited to hunt. But, a 5 year rule?
> 
> I'm not being a wiseazz, but how many people can really tell the difference between a 4, or 5 year old deer, in the span of time it might take to get the shot?


Look at the ear tag!


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

silentdeathtx4 said:


> Is it called deer season or huge rack season. I dont care what you shoot as long as you are happy with it. I cant stand it when people say I hate people who shoot spikes and buttons, I cant stand people who only hunt for the big racks. I dont think these people are real hunters.
> They probably just keep the head and give the meat to somone else.


More than likely. Man what a debate eh?


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Hornporn said:


> Yes, we cull the crap out of deer. If we see a two year old spike he will probably get hammered. We have 18 month old bucks with 8 to ten points. Not all of them but a good number of 8's. I've not seen a 2 1/2 old spike turn I to a a bigger buck.
> 
> It all depends on what you management objectives are. We are managing for tens and better. Every year we take a few bucks that gross over 170. This is with 50 years of intense management In south Texas there are many many ranches doing the same thing. It's a way of life down there. I've seen an 2 1/2 year old buck with double drops on a ten pint frame . At 3 1/2 years old he lost the drops and grew his frame. At 4 1/2 we didn't see him and at 5 he showed himself and was a 190 class buck with 3 drops.
> 
> ...


If a doe can't live...she will never be able to produce offspring like nature intended for her to do.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Ahh, so you are ruining someone else's opportunity to harvest that deer a few years down the road. And how is that better than "QDMRs" who encourage people to pass on young bucks and harvest slickheads for meat? Just so you know, this season I passed on bucks bigger than the one in your pictures. After the gun season I will take out 3 or 4 old nannies.


I could care less what you say you passed up this year as it does not matter to me at all and I hope you shoot every doe you have it still makes no difference to me you will be the sorry hunter with little or no deer action HA HA .I passed larger earlier this year as well but with time at a premium because of the 11 day Caribbean cruise my family just went on it was his time and he was good enough and the point being where is your buck this year Oh thats right you have not killed one so when you take a bigger one post up so I can see it and I will congratulate you and move on since what you kill and when you kill it does not effect me at all !!!!

On a side note if you did pass up a buck like mine you are either delusional or are just not realistic


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> If a doe can't live...she will never be able to produce offspring like nature intended for her to do.


Bingo!!


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## tiuser (Mar 22, 2009)

Hornporn said:


> Yes, we cull the crap out of deer. If we see a two year old spike he will probably get hammered. We have 18 month old bucks with 8 to ten points. Not all of them but a good number of 8's. I've not seen a 2 1/2 old spike turn I to a a bigger buck.
> 
> It all depends on what you management objectives are. We are managing for tens and better. Every year we take a few bucks that gross over 170. This is with 50 years of intense management In south Texas there are many many ranches doing the same thing. It's a way of life down there. I've seen an 2 1/2 year old buck with double drops on a ten pint frame . At 3 1/2 years old he lost the drops and grew his frame. At 4 1/2 we didn't see him and at 5 he showed himself and was a 190 class buck with 3 drops.
> 
> ...


So, it is ok for you to shoot a 2 1/2 yr old spike and it is acceptable in your eyes because you use the word "cull", but if someone else shoots a spike they are shooting "dinks".


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

tiuser said:


> So, it is ok for you to shoot a 2 1/2 yr old spike and it is acceptable in your eyes because you use the word "cull", but if someone else shoots a spike they are shooting "dinks".


Isn't it funny ho these guys stories and so called ethics ,managment ,or personal starts to unravel when they get flustered or are put on the spot or have to post up thier Bucks or when it comes to what and why they kill !


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## LadyHunterCA (Nov 3, 2009)

> So, it is ok for you to shoot a 2 1/2 yr old spike and it is acceptable in your eyes because you use the word "cull", but if someone else shoots a spike they are shooting "dinks".


x10000...GREAT post tiuser!


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

tiuser said:


> So, it is ok for you to shoot a 2 1/2 yr old spike and it is acceptable in your eyes because you use the word "cull", but if someone else shoots a spike they are shooting "dinks".


It's part of our management program. Set forth by full time wildlife biologist...not AT. I really don't care what you think. I shoot big bucks every year. A two year old spike is NOT a trophy nor what we spend tens of thousands of dollars managing. We don't have ear tags either. We have close to 90,000 acres. It has been in my family for decades. We live big deer 24/7 365 days a year. We've seen it works, we've proved it works. I'm not the one that has to resort to killing button bucks. Obviously your management practices are not working or else you'd not be killing young deer.

Anyway I have more important things to do than argue with ignorance. 

Shooting a button buck is a bigggggg difference from shooting a 2 1/2 year old spike.

Seiously, do you think a 60 billion dollar yearly industry was built on shooting spikes and button bucks?


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## Newhunter1 (May 20, 2003)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


You know...I don't give a rats butt what you think about anyone who shoots a button buck, spike or whatever. I shot one this morning and would do it again, and again, and again. I don't go after horns...I go after meat.


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## jacobh (Jun 7, 2009)

Im with you on this. Once somebody starts buying my tags they can tell me what I can shoot til then I shoot what I want




Newhunter1 said:


> You know...I don't give a rats butt what you think about anyone who shoots a button buck, spike or whatever. I shot one this morning and would do it again, and again, and again. I don't go after horns...I go after meat.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I could care less what you say you passed up this year as it does not matter to me at all and I hope you shoot every doe you have it still makes no difference to me you will be the sorry hunter with little or no deer action HA HA .I passed larger earlier this year as well but with time at a premium because of the 11 day Caribbean cruise my family just went on it was his time and he was good enough and the point being where is your buck this year Oh thats right you have not killed one so when you take a bigger one post up so I can see it and I will congratulate you and move on since what you kill and when you kill it does not effect me at all !!!!
> 
> *On a side note if you did pass up a buck like mine you are either delusional or are just not realistic*


Or I have my sights set higher than you do and I'm not so desperate to kill something that I can't show restraint on the medium sized bucks. I don't have to kill a buck and post up pictures to have a good season. It's about the experience for me, not just the kill. Besides, my freezer is full of elk so I don't need more meat. Why would I want to kill a buck with potential to be a trophy next year? Those 3.5 year olds that I passed up wouldn't have been a challenge to kill. They don't get smart enough to challenge me until they're 4.5 years old.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> If a doe can't live...she will never be able to produce offspring like nature intended for her to do.


Yeppers. Nature knows whats best. But you have all these ego freaks that wants to change things to feed their own ego's.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Or I have my sights set higher than you do and I'm not so desperate to kill something that I can't show restraint on the medium sized bucks. I don't have to kill a buck and post up pictures to have a good season. It's about the experience for me, not just the kill. Besides, my freezer is full of elk so I don't need more meat. Why would I want to kill a buck with potential to be a trophy next year? Those 3.5 year olds that I passed up wouldn't have been a challenge to kill. They don't get smart enough to challenge me until they're 4.5 years old.


Seems your high set sites continue to leave you hi and dry most of your buck deer hunting years didn't it !! Sure glad I know I have only one life to live and still manage to shoot one of the top 10 % sized bucks in my area every year !And I have plenty of meat in the freezer as well and fully intend to travel to some other land about 75 miles from here and take about 3 or four more of the lumpy headed little fellers since we are allowed 8 antless deer there as well. Aint life funny you save em so guys like me can shoot and yet I still manage to put many large book bucks on my wall over the last 36 years of hunting and it looks like i just may keep it up another 25 or 30 years at this rate anyways ! :darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## millerarchery (Dec 27, 2005)

kinda harsh arent you? i dont like it but i dont hate them, its legal and there choice.


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## mdnabors (Sep 20, 2009)

Mathias said:


> Hate's a strong word. I wish they wouldn't but it's outta my control....except on my properties!


x2...up to them on their land or public. But not on my land. Nothing under 4.5yo for me


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## JavelinaHunter (Aug 23, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Seems your high set sites continue to leave you hi and dry most of your buck deer hunting years didn't it !! Sure glad I know I have only one life to live and still manage to shoot one of the top 10 % sized bucks in my area every year !And I have plenty of meat in the freezer as well and fully intend to travel to some other land about 75 miles from here and take about 3 or four more of the lumpy headed little fellers since we are allowed 8 antless deer there as well. Aint life funny you save em so guys like me can shoot and yet I still manage to put many large book bucks on my wall over the last 36 years of hunting and it looks like i just may keep it up another 25 or 30 years at this rate anyways ! :darkbeer::darkbeer:


 Well didn't you just impress the piss out of me.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Seems your high set sites continue to leave you hi and dry most of your buck deer hunting years didn't it !! Sure glad I know I have only one life to live and still manage to shoot one of the top 10 % sized bucks in my area every year !And I have plenty of meat in the freezer as well and fully intend to travel to some other land about 75 miles from here and take about 3 or four more of the lumpy headed little fellers since we are allowed 8 antless deer there as well. Aint life funny you save em so guys like me can shoot and yet I still manage to put many large book bucks on my wall over the last 36 years of hunting and it looks like i just may keep it up another 25 or 30 years at this rate anyways ! :darkbeer::darkbeer:


How old do you think I am? Actually I've taken quite a few bucks with my bow. Maybe not as many as you, but I'm cool with it. I started with a 1.5 year old 3x3. It was a huge thrill. I will remember it for the rest of my life. As I get older and more experienced my standards are going up. I don't care how many I shoot in my lifetime. To me it's about the quality of the experience and the challenge of the hunt, not the quantity of bloody arrows. Killing "button heads" and immature bucks does nothing for me. I don't hate you for having lower standards and showing less restraint. It's your loss, not mine. And I'm glad you're not my neighbor.


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## stickseller (Aug 9, 2008)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


Are you for real??


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

My neighbor and good friend of over 25 years just called me tonight, second to the last day of rifle season, to tell me he shot a giant doe and a monster button buck behind our place. Said I didn't have to worry, the big boys are safe. I almost fell out of my chair when he said "Monster button buck", because he was serious!!!!

LMAO! 

ahh, good for him just means this guy should make it if the wolves and weather don't kill him.... Like I said before, keep shooting those nubbers and save the big ones for me:smile:


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How old do you think I am? Actually I've taken quite a few bucks with my bow. Maybe not as many as you, but I'm cool with it. I started with a 1.5 year old 3x3. It was a huge thrill. I will remember it for the rest of my life. As I get older and more experienced my standards are going up. I don't care how many I shoot in my lifetime. To me it's about the quality of the experience and the challenge of the hunt, not the quantity of bloody arrows. *Killing "button heads" and immature bucks does nothing for me. I don't hate you for having lower standards and showing less restraint. *It's your loss, not mine. And I'm glad you're not my neighbor.


Good for you if you are holding out for a "bragging buck", but I don't think because someone shoots a deer that you wouldn't shoot necessarily means they have lower standards. Different situations in everyone's life dictates how much time they can spend hunting. Two years ago I hunted over 100 days and this year because of work, I only spent about 25 days in the stand. Some people are out for the pat on the back and others hunt for the meat.


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## Jshep40 (Aug 28, 2006)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


This is how I feel


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## herTHINGarchery (Oct 12, 2009)

haha..."hate" someone for that. NO. lol. I disagree with alot of things people in this world do, especially when it comes to morals(which everyone has their own idea about) however I dont hate them. Seems a tad bit extreme. No one is perfect and Im sure there are plenty of things about yourself that people dont like, hopefully they dont "hate" you for them.


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## maineguide (Jul 12, 2009)

Here in my area if you want meat you take what ever. Just because if you don't someone else will. You can't eat the horns. Oh granted if a 150" buck stepped out in front of me I would take a shot at it without thinking twice about it.

Now you want to talk about something that is not right. HEATER HUNTERS really pi*$ me off. They have screwed up more places to hunt. They don't ask to hunt. They just drive into a place and set and then drive to the next spot if they don't see anything. To lazy to get out of a truck or car and put up a tree stand or blind.
Any way I could keep going on about that.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

vabownut said:


> No what I hate is people that force their opinion on what someone else should shoot down everyones throat .


x2 to the op, let this statement linger in your dome for a while!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Good for you if you are holding out for a "bragging buck", but I don't think because someone shoots a deer that you wouldn't shoot necessarily means they have lower standards. *Different situations in everyone's life dictates how much time they can spend hunting.* Two years ago I hunted over 100 days and this year because of work, I only spent about 25 days in the stand. Some people are out for the pat on the back and others hunt for the meat.


Good point, I can't argue with that statement. But 25 days on stand is a lot by my standards. If you can't shoot a mature doe for meat in 25 days of hunting, you either need to find a new spot or a new pastime.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How old do you think I am? Actually I've taken quite a few bucks with my bow. Maybe not as many as you, but I'm cool with it. I started with a 1.5 year old 3x3. It was a huge thrill. I will remember it for the rest of my life. As I get older and more experienced my standards are going up. I don't care how many I shoot in my lifetime. To me it's about the quality of the experience and the challenge of the hunt, not the quantity of bloody arrows. Killing "button heads" and immature bucks does nothing for me. I don't hate you for having lower standards and showing less restraint. It's your loss, not mine. And I'm glad you're not my neighbor.


I promise my top 5 bucks carry 250 inches more antler than your top 5 and I have way way higher standards than you will ever develop shorty!Heck here are just a few I bet my sons have more inches top 5 bucks and as high or higher standards than you have .You are too busy thinking you know the hunters you pigeonhole! I will bet the 6.5 year old six I shot a few years back is a mature or as large as some of your best . When you open a can of worms you might get some dirt on ya HUH!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I promise my top 5 bucks carry 250 inches more antler than your top 5 and I have way way higher standards than you will ever develop shorty!


How can your standards be higher than mine if you still kill immature bucks and I won't? Think about it.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How can your standards be higher than mine if you still kill immature bucks and I won't? Think about it.


That buck I shot this year was a 4.5 year old skippy .You know antler size does not equate age .I suppose one of the deer I took recently also did not meet your majesties standard or the buck I called in to my hunting partner this season was too young and small .Wake up .


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## nogoodreezen (Jul 20, 2010)

I actually shot a button buck today. Felt terrible when I saw it but he'll taste just as good as the doe i thought I was shooting. I have passed several spikes and small bucks this year but if I want to shoot them, I will. If you want to hate me go ahead. I'm a teacher which means I hunt Satuday and Sunday before church. Not a lot of time to squeeze in hunting, family, work, and other responsibilities. Lots of better things to hate on man. Just sayin.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

i shot a button buck with my bow earlier this season, a bad gut shot and i lost him i felt horrible but shots like that happen.


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## tiuser (Mar 22, 2009)

Hornporn said:


> It's part of our management program. Set forth by full time wildlife biologist...not AT. I really don't care what you think. I shoot big bucks every year. A two year old spike is NOT a trophy nor what we spend tens of thousands of dollars managing. We don't have ear tags either. We have close to 90,000 acres. It has been in my family for decades. We live big deer 24/7 365 days a year. We've seen it works, we've proved it works..........


I understand deer management just fine. I commend you and your family for your 90,000 acre ranch and what you do. Seriously, I do. There is a difference between 90,000 acre ranch and a 10 acre landowner and deer management.



Hornporn said:


> ............We've seen it works, we've proved it works....................Obviously your management practices are not working or else you'd not be killing young deer.


You are talking in circles. Your management practices are working....but you are still shooting young deer and hiding behind "cull", "not a trophy", and "he is not good enough for the herd". I am shooting young deer and hiding behind "meat hunter" and "he is good enough". When the BS clears the facts are the same you are shooting young deer too. PERIOD!!!!!



Hornporn said:


> ...........Shooting a button buck is a bigggggg difference from shooting a 2 1/2 year old spike................


I agree with you, but the OP was talking button bucks and spikes too.



Hornporn said:


> ..........So you have fun killing dinks, and I'll have fun hammering mature bucks.


You still kill dinks yourself to insure your herd has mature bucks!!!




Hornporn said:


> ...........Anyway I have more important things to do than argue with ignorance.


It is pretty sad that when an opposing side to your debat arises you have to resort to put downs. Are put downs how you justify to yourself what you are doing is right? The real ignorance here is not your opinion that shooting young deer is wrong, but that you stand in judgement of others that do it when in reality you do it too. 

There are many views to this topic:
"I am a meat hunter, I shoot anything" view
"I am a trophy hunter and pass on all young deer" view
and worst of all your view... the "it is ok if I shoot young deer but it is not ok if you do and I will put you down if you do"!!!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Good point, I can't argue with that statement. But 25 days on stand is a lot by my standards. If you can't shoot a mature doe for meat in 25 days of hunting, you either need to find a new spot or a new pastime.


I did shoot a mature doe. I also shot what you consider a "dink" buck, but that doesn't matter to me because apparently my standards are lower. What matters to me is the hunt and making the shot I practice for all year long, and when that all comes together, life is good.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Sorry, but I had to put the smackdown on this spike yesterday. 

It's property that is being turned into a cul de sac, and we can't hunt it next year. That equals: If it's brown, it's down....flame away brothers.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

that spike looks kind of old by the look of the face and body?


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

pse85 said:


> that spike looks kind of old by the look of the face and body?


Maybe..I'm not a deer biologist...just a hunter.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

haha right on..... he def doesnt look like a yearling!


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

i just get fed up with trophy hunters trying to force their mindset upon the rest of us


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Ummmmm.....that is an 18 month old, and more power to you. I have no issues with it at all.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

i will shoot whatever i want to! button buck or spike i have shot them both and still slept fine at night! they all fed my family. i have taken bigger or should i say decent bucks too. i have never had the privelege of shooting a doe but i would in a heartbeat. the only and i reapeat ONLY way i pass on an animal is:
if it has spots
If i am tagged out
if its not legal
If i feel this doe might have a buck behind her!
other than that i will continue to indulge in the 2nd amendment!


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## billsauk (Feb 15, 2009)

I was holding out for something nice this year, and last. Passed several little bucks. Then a week ago I decided I feel like taking a shot, and wouldn't you know it here comes a spike. That spike came home with me and I was happy about it. I don't see why people gotta force their standards on others.


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

Some of us work real hard for them little deer!

Now what do you wanna bet my button buck tastes better then your "big" buck!
:set1_cook2:


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## xman59 (Jan 19, 2009)

ozzz said:


> Why are you calling me a fool becuase I choose not to shoot spike or button bucks? and what does that have to do with your dad being in a nursing home?


it has to do with you arguing with your dad over HIS deer,,, obviously you dont understand life very much,,,, your dad is way may important than the deer he killed,, and you got upset with him about it! what right do you have to tell anyone what they should kill when hunting, especially your dad,, think about it... because one day hes not going to be there, and you never know when that day will come,, no one is promised tomorrow,, is arguing about his deer worth it.. if he never got home that night or the next trip... your missing a lot... and you can do something about it,,, in my case no one can do anything about it.. i can not make any more memories with my dad,,, only thing i have left is to bury him , you should rejoice with him while you still can, be glad for any animal he takes,, it could always be the last one


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

xman59 said:


> it has to do with you arguing with your dad over HIS deer,,, obviously you dont understand life very much,,,, your dad is way may important than the deer he killed,, and you got upset with him about it! what right do you have to tell anyone what they should kill when hunting, especially your dad,, think about it... because one day hes not going to be there, and you never know when that day will come,, no one is promised tomorrow,, is arguing about his deer worth it.. if he never got home that night or the next trip... your missing a lot... and you can do something about it,,, in my case no one can do anything about it.. i can not make any more memories with my dad,,, only thing i have left is to bury him , you should rejoice with him while you still can, be glad for any animal he takes,, it could always be the last one


* Amen to that brother!
* A very hard cold fact of life.One day they're gone.

Some day,sooner or later it blows right through us all and the hole a Rage leaves is microscopic in comparision....on a good day!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> That buck I shot this year was a 4.5 year old skippy .You know antler size does not equate age .I suppose one of the deer I took recently also did not meet your majesties standard or the buck I called in to my hunting partner this season was too young and small .Wake up .


My mistake, it was impossible for me to age it with the pictures you posted. I assumed it was young based on it's medium sized rack. I guess I'll have to take your word about it's age. You have some nice trophies in your mancave. You need a better camera. That buck your son shot is a bruiser, you must be proud of him. I never claimed to have shot a pile of trophy bucks. But it is my goal to kill a few off of our family farm so I am doing what I can to improve my chances. I'm following the QDM principles and I'm seeing some good results. What's wrong with that nuke?


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## Jellymon (Jun 19, 2010)

I bet I had more fun hunting does this year than he did shooting one of his 150" deer! Sure I would love to get a big buck, and big for blacktails is a 100-120" deer, but my doe tastes great and I was out hunting with family. Learn what really matters will ya.

I had to put this on here! :banana:


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

The ridiculous part about this whole trophies only stuff is that what you consider a trophy someone else considers a mediocre or small buck. Plus once you shoot a 120 then you have to shoot a 130 and so on etc.etc.etc... You're always chasing your tail never stopping to realize that it's not the animal or the horns but the hunt that should be important. You've been brainwashed by the Bad Boy Buggy brigade into thinking that by shooting a buck that wouldn't be plastered all over the internet or on some magazine that somehow you aren't a competent or experienced bowhunter. When the real truth is real bowhunters shoot what they want to shoot if legal and owe no one an apology or explanation. A true bowhunter acknowledges other hunters rights and efforts, even if they differ from theirs, and shares in the fellow hunters success. To degrade or disrespect a fellow hunter at this time shows poor sportsmanship and is childish and no different than someone losing a game and storming off the field refusing to shake the opponents hand.

People talk about QDM and that by letting these smaller bucks walk it will improve their hunting success because they will be bigger next year. Yet there is absolute no guarantee that these deer will make it to next year and unless you have an extremely large piece of property or it's fenced in you can't control any of the variables with any reliability, especially, on public land. Then once they are old enough and have a decent set of head gear you want to remove them from the herd when they could be passing on their superior genetics. Why do you think some of these pay for hunt places pay thousands of dollars for stud deer to breed with their does, you don't see them buy or using spikes or buttons for that. In addition, not all locations have the right combination to produce quality deer no matter how much you practice QDM in that area. Plus for most it's not about the herd at all but an effort to produce more deer with bigger racks and where does it all end, next you'll have people cloning or genetically modifying deer to produce huge racks, for those with deep pockets of course!

Every year game wardens bag plenty of poachers by placing robo-bucks out in sting operations but you never see them use a spike or button robo-buck only a nice eight or ten pointer that really brings them in! The greed for antlers causes many so called hunting celebrity's to fall from grace by getting caught doing illegal things to put their tags and hands on bucks with trophy racks but as far as I know I haven't seen too many get pinched for killing little ones. You also never hear of anyone stealing a spike or button buck mount but many times trailer loads of big racks are stolen each year at different deer classics. Is a set of horns really worth going to jail or being publicly disgraced? The answer to some is yes because you can get all kinds of sponsors and money if you kill big bucks and overnight become an expert. You'll never hear that it was just pure luck that they killed that deer it's always planned or because of XYZ scent or bow or jacket.....

Did Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Saxton Pope, Art Young, and all the other founding fathers of our sport place all their emphasis on horns or antlers, I've read a lot of books and articles about these men and rarely does the subject of headgear come up the way it does today. To these men even a rabbit or grouse taken with the bow was a trophy to be treasured and they reveled in the camaraderie of fellow bowhunters and sharing the wilderness and camp. To them hunting with the bow was a privilege to be shared and passed on so that others may enjoy this wonderful sport not turned into a commercial enterprise for fame and profit. I think some have lost sight of the roots of our sport, to walk the woods with a bow in our hand and take game with our bow legally and ethically, to enjoy the woods and outdoors with friends and family, and to pass the love of all of this down to our children so they may enjoy it as well.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## Jellymon (Jun 19, 2010)

Now thats a post!:cheers::banana::set1_applaud::77::clap::nixon:


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## bigredneck61088 (Oct 12, 2004)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


I pass alot of bucks, have killed some nice ones, but i am in an urban zone, the key to managing urban units is killing any deer to get numbers down

And even tho alot of us pass, any deer is a trophy with a bow, try telling a 16 yr old kid with his first deer with a bow that is a button buck or spike, that he shouldn't have shot it.... grow up a little man

i took this pic just for you brother!!


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

tiuser said:


> I understand deer management just fine. I commend you and your family for your 90,000 acre ranch and what you do. Seriously, I do. There is a difference between 90,000 acre ranch and a 10 acre landowner and deer management.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hornporn's pointless to debate with. You can agree w/him & he's still going to tell you 
your wrong. Trust me from experience. Read through his post & you can see this is his 
normal cycle. Usually ends in meaningless insults & that's it. It's resembles reactions you 
get from a habitual liar. I don't believe a man as supposedly as well traveled, hunting 30 
something countries, & manages land all over the U.S. would carry him self like that.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


SORRY brother you deserve all the flaming you get on this post, you should hate people that poach, cheat, lie, and steal! BUT to come one here and say how you HATE people that shoot a spike if legal then you have issues.


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## JakeInMa (Oct 10, 2009)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


No. For one thing, not everyone can shoot does. Believe it or not, in some states you have to draw a tag for a doe and a legal buck may be one with 3" of antler on one side. Here in MA and NH you may not see any bucks all season long and if you pass up on a spike you may not have another opportunity all season. I prefer to have meat in the freezer than antlers on the wall. QDM isn't high on my list of priorities.


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## bmd1023 (Nov 5, 2007)

nope their choice!


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

This is the best thread ever. My user name has been vindicated.

Just start posting up those spikehorns people...


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't care what someone else decides to shoot, that is thier own decision. Many are not interested in trophy antlers and want to take the first available deer regardless if it's a spike or a doe or 160" ten point. If your worried about the trophy potential go to a state and hunt that manages for trophy deer. The trophy potential will only be as good as the management practices allow. Keep in mind that everyone goals and beliefs and practices are not the same as yours. Try your best to support your fellow hunter regardless of what practices he/she decides to follow as long as it is within the law. If you disagree with the management practices in your state you need to be proactive and talk with the decision makers in your area, if not hunt where laws and game management practices support your personal preference. The worst thing we hunters can do is to attack our fellow hunters that are practicing legal hunting methods.


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## NCDon (Feb 17, 2010)

No. Enjoy the hunt and the story at the cleaning pole.


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## mbw (Oct 11, 2010)

No. My son and nephew have shot a few spikes, buttons 4's and 6's and they were the funnest hunts I have ever been on. They both just turned 12. Loose the hate bro. Its not good for you.


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## eskimoohunt (Dec 21, 2008)

any deer taken with a Bow is a good deer

a lot of us dont have the means to hunt private land so nothing is a given including getting a deer.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Hate is a strong word, and your notions are misleading. Shooting does is not always the answer, and is both population and region specific. In regions where there are not a lot of does... I'd rather shoot a small buck any day. That keeps the does alive to be bred. (I'm not a deer biologist, nor do I pretend to understand all the details and ramifications of "herd" management techniques.) The way I see it out here in the east is: One dead doe likely equals 3 fewer deer next season. So with one good shot, is it better to take one deer, or 3. I wish I hunted in an area where there were plenty of deer, (presumably you T-Rage are fortunate in this regard) but winter kill, coyotes etc... have taken their toll on our "deer heard." ~ If you could call it that!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Stykbow1 said:


> The ridiculous part about this whole trophies only stuff is that what you consider a trophy someone else considers a mediocre or small buck. Plus once you shoot a 120 then you have to shoot a 130 and so on etc.etc.etc... You're always chasing your tail never stopping to realize that it's not the animal or the horns but the hunt that should be important. You've been brainwashed by the Bad Boy Buggy brigade into thinking that by shooting a buck that wouldn't be plastered all over the internet or on some magazine that somehow you aren't a competent or experienced bowhunter. When the real truth is real bowhunters shoot what they want to shoot if legal and owe no one an apology or explanation. A true bowhunter acknowledges other hunters rights and efforts, even if they differ from theirs, and shares in the fellow hunters success. To degrade or disrespect a fellow hunter at this time shows poor sportsmanship and is childish and no different than someone losing a game and storming off the field refusing to shake the opponents hand.
> 
> People talk about QDM and that by letting these smaller bucks walk it will improve their hunting success because they will be bigger next year. Yet there is absolute no guarantee that these deer will make it to next year and unless you have an extremely large piece of property or it's fenced in you can't control any of the variables with any reliability, especially, on public land. Then once they are old enough and have a decent set of head gear you want to remove them from the herd when they could be passing on their superior genetics. Why do you think some of these pay for hunt places pay thousands of dollars for stud deer to breed with their does, you don't see them buy or using spikes or buttons for that. In addition, not all locations have the right combination to produce quality deer no matter how much you practice QDM in that area. Plus for most it's not about the herd at all but an effort to produce more deer with bigger racks and where does it all end, next you'll have people cloning or genetically modifying deer to produce huge racks, for those with deep pockets of course!
> 
> ...




Amen!!! Now you sound like a person I would enjoy hunting with. 

Good luck this season Roger!


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## df06 (Jun 9, 2007)

*shooting spikes*

I shot one a couple weeks ago, so you can hate me all you want.
I will be hunting this evening and if I see a spike, i may shoot him.


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## Rupypug (Oct 24, 2006)

I am actually happy for them. There have been seasons on National Forest land where I would have been glad to see a spike.


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

Quick question for those that love to shoot spikes and buttons: When you head into the woods, are you hoping to see a nice big buck?


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

fishx65 said:


> Quick question for those that love to shoot spikes and buttons: When you head into the woods, are you hoping to see a nice big buck?


If everyone did it perfectly, and there were big bucks everywhere, then people would complain that people are shooting the 150" bucks and not holding out for 200" ones. If you saw 5 150" bucks per sit they wouldn't be a trophy anymore. What if nobody ever shot bucks at all and people only wanted does. Then you'd just be shooting the stuff nobody else wanted. "Oh Man, I'm not shooting that nasty thing, it's got horns all over it!". It's all perception.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

TailChaser said:


> If everyone did it perfectly, and there were big bucks everywhere, then people would complain that people are shooting the 150" bucks and not holding out for 200" ones. If you saw 5 150" bucks per sit they wouldn't be a trophy anymore. What if nobody ever shot bucks at all and people only wanted does. Then you'd just be shooting the stuff nobody else wanted. "Oh Man, I'm not shooting that nasty thing, it's got horns all over it!". It's all perception.



That really didn't answer the question at all. I think it was more of a yes no question that most people would answer yes to. But in reality most people don't hold out for the big one but given the choice between a spike and a 180" 12 point I'm pretty sure most would take the 180". The "you can't eat the horns" stance is complete nonsense. That 180 will have more meat on it than three nubbins.....

I'm "guessin" the answer for MOST to the question you side stepped would be, "Yes, I am hoping to see a nice buck"


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

fishx65 said:


> Quick question for those that love to shoot spikes and buttons: When you head into the woods, are you hoping to see a nice big buck?


When i head into the woods I am hoping to see deer. And am truly hoping that one af them comes by my stand. Buck, doe it doesnt matter. I never go in with the expectation of seeing a big deer.


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## MnHunter82 (Dec 4, 2009)

I hate when people poach because they don't care to follow the rules put in place so hunting can continue for generations to come. When the deer herd is in bad shape its tougher for adults to get kids involved in hunting. what kid wants to sit in the woods and not see deer? As long as the deer is legally taken then im all for it. I grew up an inner city kid who only played basketball and football every day. Never in my life would have imagined that i would be in the woods hunting. I never had anyone to introduce me to hunting. Now that I bow hunt, im having the time of my life. I will definitely look back at the 2010 season as very memorable time of my life. So if all it takes is for an adult to take a kid hunting and shoot a button buck to get them hooked, then im all for it. So no i dont hate people who legally shoot animals. I see that as thousands of successes with a different story for each one. 
I hope you know that some of those spikes you are letting pass will only be spikes. they will never grow anything more than 2 spiked horns no matter how many years you let them walk. Those deer are competing with the big antlered deer you shoot and in some cases mating and passing on the "spike" gene.


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I promise my top 5 bucks carry 250 inches more antler than your top 5 and I have way way higher standards than you will ever develop shorty!Heck here are just a few I bet my sons have more inches top 5 bucks and as high or higher standards than you have .You are too busy thinking you know the hunters you pigeonhole! I will bet the 6.5 year old six I shot a few years back is a mature or as large as some of your best . When you open a can of worms you might get some dirt on ya HUH!


You sound like a real winner...like you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I've read a lot of your post on this and you're simply wrong on management. I'm laughing at you.

I can promise you one thing...your top 5 deer are not even a close second to mine. I wouldn't want you hunting anywhere near where I hunt. There are many nice people I have and would invite to hunt our place however you are not it.

What I love so much are the "rams" you have hunted lmao. Tell me, how tuff was that? How big was the pen you shot them out of? I am a Life Member of FNAWS and I taken the real sheep slam as well as many sheep in Asia (Gobi Argali, Alti Argali, Marco Polo, Transcaspian Urial)

So keep on hunting high fences...because you are so awesome and such a great hunter.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Hornporn said:


> You sound like a real winner...like you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I've read a lot of your post on this and you're simply wrong on management. I'm laughing at you.
> 
> I can promise you one thing...your top 5 deer are not even a close second to mine. I wouldn't want you hunting anywhere near where I hunt. There are many nice people I have and would invite to hunt our place however you are not it.
> 
> What I love so much are the "rams" you have hunted lmao. Tell me, how tuff was that? How big was the pen you shot them out of? I am a Life Member of FNAWS and I taken the real sheep slam as well as many *sheep in Asia (Gobi Argali, Alti Argali, Marco Polo, Transcaspian Urial)*So keep on hunting high fences...because you are so awesome and such a great hunter.


Pics?


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## S.T. Hawk (Apr 5, 2010)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


I see nothing wrong with a young girl having over 20,000 posts on an internet forum........but a grown man ?


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## judger101 (Jan 11, 2009)

while i disagree with people that shoot immature bucks, i guess there is nothing i can do about it so why complain about it?


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## Hornporn (Sep 22, 2010)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Pics?


I've never put a pic on this site & and I really don't care to. I also log in via iPhone so can't however...send me your email and I'll be happy to email you a pic or two of my trophy room.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Hornporn said:


> I've never put a pic on this site & and I really don't care to. I also log in via iPhone so can't however...send me your email and I'll be happy to email you a pic or two of my trophy room.


Please??? I'll post pics of my African Big 5, all World Records taken with lawn darts.


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## NightOwl (Dec 17, 2009)

So much misinformation spread here about reasons why people justify killing immature animals. How about " I'm simply not a good enough hunter to kill one" or "I have the patience of a child so I couldn't possibly wait for one" ?

Shoot what you want.... you pay for the tag, but you shouldn't be afraid to tell more serious hunters that you're just lazy!


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

when i start getting mad or hate people that shoot small deer than i need to stop hunting because it isnt fun anymore....when you start getting greedy its a competition, a personal competition on yourself to always get big deer. before you know it you arent hunting for yourself but for your wall, or for a bigger story. it will all of the sudden not be about hunting anymore....but about your image and your ego. i cant tell you how much fun i have harvesting deer of all sizes, me and my wife LOVE tracking the blood and loading the game onto the 4 wheeler, not to mention the pics afterwords. gentleman this is my first year bow hunting! my second year rifle for deer, when i harvested a 150 pound 4 point buck with my bow it was the most incredible feeling. my grandfather in law whom is dying from cancer put on his jacket and pushed his walker outside at 9pm in 40 degree temps just to look upon it. you might say thats not a trophy buck....and you probably would have passed! you might even ridicule me for shooting it! but i bet my story was a trophy in its own and i bet my trophy 4 point will always be a reminder of it....he will hang on my wall with the big boys and its proud stance upon it deserves just as much credit as any deer of shape or size!

god bless guys!


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## Lucky_Dog (Oct 21, 2010)

I don't hate anyone... but I do wonder why they do that. 

Actually, the closest that I come is a strong dislike for people that hate other people.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Why does this have to turn into who is a bigger man and a better hunter? It has nothing to do with either? Its about getting outdoors and enjoying yourself. This is the exact reason I "hate" where hunting has gone today. Its no longer about having fun and enjoying the company of family and friends. 

People spend 10's of thousands of dollars to "grow" big deer so they can claim they are the best hunters in the world. 

Get outside, shoot whatever makes you happy, be happy for others who do the same.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

poorman said:


> Why does this have to turn into who is a bigger man and a better hunter? It has nothing to do with either? Its about getting outdoors and enjoying yourself. This is the exact reason I "hate" where hunting has gone today. Its no longer about having fun and enjoying the company of family and friends.
> 
> People spend 10's of thousands of dollars to "grow" big deer so they can claim they are the best hunters in the world.
> 
> Get outside, shoot whatever makes you happy, be happy for others who do the same.


great post! extremely great post!:cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

My Dad can beat up your Dad !!!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

NightOwl said:


> So much misinformation spread here about reasons why people justify killing immature animals. How about " I'm simply not a good enough hunter to kill one" or "I have the patience of a child so I couldn't possibly wait for one" ?
> 
> Shoot what you want.... you pay for the tag, but you shouldn't be afraid to tell more serious hunters that you're just lazy!



Congratulations on the statement above. You have just become part of an elite group. And only on your 7th post too. 

Its people like you who truly give our sport a bad name. I am sick to death of people like you and the arrogance that you seem to think you can force on other people. Carefull patting yourself on the back so hard you, you might collapse a lung.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> My Dad can beat up your Dad !!!


If he cant then he has some serious issues. Since my dad passed away years ago.


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## SCFox (Dec 11, 2005)

My Dad is a pretty big fella!!!

I don't have an issue with any legal kills. I do, however, have issues with people that shoot what they want and then complain about not seeing "trophy" deer.

When I was younger, we always had a hunting party of about 15 guys hunting 3 properties that bordered each other. Like clockwork every year, a young adult and his dad would walk out of the woods after hunting for an hour on opening day, dragging a forky and a spike. Every year they would cry and whine about not seeing any "big" bucks.

After a few years of their whining, I told them either be happy with what they shoot, or learn to let the little ones walk. They took offense to that and quit hunting with us.


SCFox


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

our founding fathers just like roger said in the above post wanted you to enjoy hunting! whether it be by gun or bow they wanted you to harvest game that was fit to aYOUR expectations, not that of your peers! young jhon down the road has been bow hunting 8 months, he has seen alot of articles of his heroes shooting big bucks with name brand equipment too! little jhonny finaly gets a deer into his sights and his heart is racing and its only a spike, little jhonny just harvested a nice spike with hiss 1984 bear compound and thats all the bow he can afford! he also wont be posting his pics online because everyone else will redicule him for his choice in game size. yet every nite he goes to bed he looks at his wall and sees a beautiful spike! he couldnt be prouder. gentleman what has this pastime/sport come to when we all have to compare bone and tarnish another mans pride for shooting a smaller animal than you??


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

another thing i have noticed is 40 50 and 60 year old men talking about brand name apperal for hunting and spending big dollars for that name brand equipment and clothing! they sound like a bunch of girls whining over tommy hilfiger or what not purses and jeans! we are in a serious crisis, frankly im worried!


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## Bionicrooster (Dec 14, 2005)

Cornfed said:


> Then why EVER shoot anything with antlers ?!? If ya can't eat 'em, why waste 'em.... right ?!?


Sorry man i am usually right there with you but this makes no sense at all. Are you saying if someone hunts deer primarily for meat they shouldn't shoot a buck if it comes out? If someone is willing to shoot a spike they aren't allowed to shoot an 8 pointer f he walks out?? :dontknow:


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## Bionicrooster (Dec 14, 2005)

NightOwl said:


> So much misinformation spread here about reasons why people justify killing immature animals. How about " I'm simply not a good enough hunter to kill one" or "I have the patience of a child so I couldn't possibly wait for one" ?
> 
> Shoot what you want.... you pay for the tag, but you shouldn't be afraid to tell more serious hunters that you're just lazy!


How about someone who has killed multiple P&Y animals but still shoots a spike now and then for meat? Seriously man posts like this make me think the average IQ on this board is 50.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

good names that realy represent our sport, fred eichler, ted nugent, fred bear, stan potts, chuck adams the list goes on for guys whom will harvest whatever they feel like!


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## fmb (Jan 23, 2006)

just shoot what makes you happy as long as its legal, screw what anyone else thinks


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

mn5503 said:


> ......The "you can't eat the horns" stance is complete nonsense. That 180 will have more meat on it than three nubbins.....
> 
> I'm "guessin" the answer for MOST to the question you side stepped would be, "Yes, I am hoping to see a nice buck"


Yes, I'm always hoping to see a nice buck......but the reality is that, where I hunt (state land) a 180" buck may be a once in a lifetime experience. All of a sudden the meat from a nubbins or spike or forky or doe or whatever _every year_ starts to outweigh that once in a blue moon 180 big time....:noidea:


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

I ALWAYS hold out for the big ones! Cheers!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

redruff said:


> I ALWAYS hold out for the big ones! Cheers!


Photoshopped!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Redruff, I love that pic! The look on your face says it all !!! LOL!!! 

Congrats on the kill by the way!


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

This is a truely crazy thread. I've got 6 or 8 of what I consider true hunting buddies. In the last week 1 lost his 13 year old daughter in a vehicle accident, one ended up in the hospital with some serious problems, and another had a heart attack. Life is to freakin' short for stupid arguments and insults against someone that doesn't hunt the same as we, you, I, or anyone else. If people are hunting legally....then what the heck is the problem???? For crying out loud, if you don't like something, then work legislatively to change it....but why the insults toward someone that doesn't shoot the same animals? Someone stated that people are who shoot spikes or buttons are just "lazy". Really? I could argue that all day long til I'm blue in the face, but that won't do any good. There are a lot of reasons for shooting any deer that gives an opportunity! Now I'm gonna take a nap, then head to my buddies place and hunt with my Taurus Judge. If ANY deer gets within 20 yds he/she/it is going down! Afterwords, I'll have a beer, and visit with a couple of my hunting buddies, and appreciate being so blessed to be able to shoot a deer, and share it with friends.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> My mistake, it was impossible for me to age it with the pictures you posted. I assumed it was young based on it's medium sized rack. I guess I'll have to take your word about it's age. You have some nice trophies in your man cave. You need a better camera. That buck your son shot is a bruiser, you must be proud of him. I never claimed to have shot a pile of trophy bucks. But it is my goal to kill a few off of our family farm so I am doing what I can to improve my chances. I'm following the QDM principles and I'm seeing some good results. What's wrong with that nuke?


Not a Thing is wrong with it on your land but remember there are many ways to achieve a life time of satisfying hunting and taking trophy bucks aside from either of our methods . Just remember that hunting is personal and the land we hunt is our own and we can run it the way we wish and we should never impose our own management techniques or philosophies on others .If someone wants to know how you do what you do and take the animals you take offer up the tales and advice . But if a person does not subscribe to your ways or kill what you want them too on their hunting land its ok too just remember unless they are setting on your fence line they do not effect your hunting or deer what so ever. To each his own its the freedom and enjoyment of hunting that draws hunters in.

I have found that over the years and yes I fallowed QDMs manuals to the letter for 10 years and my hunting started to go way way down hill toward the end when I realized that all I had to do was pass up young bucks , that it was ok to shoot a few button bucks for meat, protect my does , plant lots of food plots ,keep about 1/2 the farm a sanctuary and the bucks would flock to my land. 
Because its simple a person can not run a true QDM program on a couple of hundred acres it takes way over 600 acres since the average travels of deer of all ages over 1.5 years and both sexes is well over a mile.

You are free to manage how you like as others are .Nothing wrong with that but attitude to other hunters because you dissagree with them is wrong when what they do is legal on thier land.


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## LadyHunterCA (Nov 3, 2009)

pse85....I SO agree! Fred Eichler is coming here to California in January to do a symposium, and I'm trying to figure out if hubby can get the time off of work so we can go. I'd LOVE to hobnob with him and learn from him. He is a "hunting personality" that I would love to hunt with ANY day of the year. He is a true hunter...excited about ANY animal he takes and would rather have a small deer to fill his freezer than always wait and wait and wait and hope and pray that the "monster" walks out in range.
RCL...I agree too...here where we hunt on public land in California, we are lucky to get a forked horn buck in bow range that we can take an ethical shot at (where we hunt, LOTS of thick underbrush making most shots that could be taken unethical because all the brush would likely deflect the arrow to just wound the deer). If I was able to stalk up onto a moster blacktail or muley, then yes, you better as hell believe that I'd take the shot (as long as it was a clean shot)...but I'm not holding out and leaving my freezer empty for years on end in the "hopes" of seeing that big monster. I'm just as thrilled with the tall forker horn hubby took this year (who's horns are hanging in my son's room) as I would be with any "trophy" class deer...and that forker (who was actually aged at almost 4 years old) tastes damn good! 
I will say congratulations to ANY hunter who legally takes a deer...I don't care one iota if their deer is bigger than mine...I'm just happy to HAVE deer meat in my freezer...those antlers are just a bonus. 
And Roger...AMEN!!!! Thank you for expressing everything I've been feeling about this post but couldn't find the right way to say. May your hunting season be a great one sir!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Stykbow1 said:


> The ridiculous part about this whole trophies only stuff is that what you consider a trophy someone else considers a mediocre or small buck. Plus once you shoot a 120 then you have to shoot a 130 and so on etc.etc.etc... You're always chasing your tail never stopping to realize that it's not the animal or the horns but the hunt that should be important. You've been brainwashed by the Bad Boy Buggy brigade into thinking that by shooting a buck that wouldn't be plastered all over the internet or on some magazine that somehow you aren't a competent or experienced bowhunter. When the real truth is real bowhunters shoot what they want to shoot if legal and owe no one an apology or explanation. A true bowhunter acknowledges other hunters rights and efforts, even if they differ from theirs, and shares in the fellow hunters success. To degrade or disrespect a fellow hunter at this time shows poor sportsmanship and is childish and no different than someone losing a game and storming off the field refusing to shake the opponents hand.
> 
> People talk about QDM and that by letting these smaller bucks walk it will improve their hunting success because they will be bigger next year. Yet there is absolute no guarantee that these deer will make it to next year and unless you have an extremely large piece of property or it's fenced in you can't control any of the variables with any reliability, especially, on public land. Then once they are old enough and have a decent set of head gear you want to remove them from the herd when they could be passing on their superior genetics. Why do you think some of these pay for hunt places pay thousands of dollars for stud deer to breed with their does, you don't see them buy or using spikes or buttons for that. In addition, not all locations have the right combination to produce quality deer no matter how much you practice QDM in that area. Plus for most it's not about the herd at all but an effort to produce more deer with bigger racks and where does it all end, next you'll have people cloning or genetically modifying deer to produce huge racks, for those with deep pockets of course!
> 
> ...


Bravo let hunters be hunters and enjoy your hunt and hunting pals .We get one trip through this world life is short just enjoy it and make new Friends!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

poorman said:


> Why does this have to turn into who is a bigger man and a better hunter? It has nothing to do with either? Its about getting outdoors and enjoying yourself. This is the exact reason I "hate" where hunting has gone today. Its no longer about having fun and enjoying the company of family and friends.
> 
> People spend 10's of thousands of dollars to "grow" big deer so they can claim they are the best hunters in the world.
> 
> Get outside, shoot whatever makes you happy, be happy for others who do the same.


I agree with you completely but when attacked a person will defend themselves and there personal pride every time .Hunting is about self gratification and supposed to be fun always!


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Skeptic said:


> This is a truely crazy thread. I've got 6 or 8 of what I consider true hunting buddies. In the last week 1 lost his 13 year old daughter in a vehicle accident, one ended up in the hospital with some serious problems, and another had a heart attack. Life is to freakin' short for stupid arguments and insults against someone that doesn't hunt the same as we, you, I, or anyone else. If people are hunting legally....then what the heck is the problem???? For crying out loud, if you don't like something, then work legislatively to change it....but why the insults toward someone that doesn't shoot the same animals? Someone stated that people are who shoot spikes or buttons are just "lazy". Really? I could argue that all day long til I'm blue in the face, but that won't do any good. There are a lot of reasons for shooting any deer that gives an opportunity! Now I'm gonna take a nap, then head to my buddies place and hunt with my Taurus Judge. If ANY deer gets within 20 yds he/she/it is going down! Afterwords, I'll have a beer, and visit with a couple of my hunting buddies, and appreciate being so blessed to be able to shoot a deer, and share it with friends.


Excellent post! I've lost and am losing some of my life long hunting buddies as well! The biggest deer in the world doesn't hold memories like hunting buddies.
I turned my hunting buddy of nearly 30 years onto bow hunting last fall. He joined me at the farm this year and got his first bow kill! Was it a wall hanger!
YES indeed an 80lb doe! 
Will he and I always remember this hunt? Yep! One of the funniest hunts ever! He got his at 4pm I got my doe at 6pm on opening day. He watched it all from the porch.
I won't post a picture to protect his identity from the OP! LOL...


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## havoctec2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

No what I really hate is a bunch of rack hunters that only want a rack to put on there wall and dont even care one bit about the meat I really just can't stand all the bi--hing on here about what deer people shoot what gives any person the right to to tell any one what deer they should or shouldnt shoot evrey deer I have ever shot and there has been allot are all prize deer to me


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## Incubus (Aug 17, 2008)

Since I hate all of you and anyone on this site...the answer is yes, I hate those who shoot spikes and button bucks.


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## dynotec (Aug 30, 2006)

I hate d bags that whine about what everyone else wants to shoot . I used to think like that and then i realized that is a pretty dumb way to think. so shoot what you want and have fun ,that is what it is all about anyway.I took my son hunting last night ,he is 8 by the way,and i shot a button in front of him . That little button buck just lit a fire in another young hunter and next year he will be there with me with his own gun and his own tag . That button buck was worth it ,so if the op doesn't like it or anyone else for that matter WAH WAH i could care less


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

poorman said:


> When i head into the woods I am hoping to see deer. And am truly hoping that one af them comes by my stand. Buck, doe it doesnt matter. I never go in with the expectation of seeing a big deer.


Great honest answer Poor! I figured most would ignore this question. I to love seeing any deer out there as much as anyone but I always have high hopes of seeing Mr. Big. You just destroyed my theory that all bowhunters hope to see a big trophy buck when heading into the woods!!!!!


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

judger101 said:


> while i disagree with people that shoot immature bucks, i guess there is nothing i can do about it so why complain about it?


Exactly, so don't.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

NightOwl said:


> So much misinformation spread here about reasons why people justify killing immature animals. How about " I'm simply not a good enough hunter to kill one" or "I have the patience of a child so I couldn't possibly wait for one" ?
> 
> Shoot what you want.... you pay for the tag, but you shouldn't be afraid to tell more serious hunters that you're just lazy!


Thank you for showing us how immature you are.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

I shot one today. I am all tore up over it. :wink:


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## vftcandy (Nov 6, 2009)

MOC said:


> I shot one today. I am all tore up over it. :wink:


Haha....


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

I can't believe this thread is almost 13 pages long. You fellers sure know how to party!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

fishx65 said:


> Great honest answer Poor! I figured most would ignore this question. I to love seeing any deer out there as much as anyone but I always have high hopes of seeing Mr. Big. You just destroyed my theory that all bowhunters hope to see a big trophy buck when heading into the woods!!!!!


And it is honest. I just enjoy hunting. It really doesnt matter to me if I kill a big buck. I have a couple of nice ones mounted and if I ever get lucky enough to shoot a bigger one I will have it mounted. But that is not the reason I hunt. And that is all I am trying to say. Everyone has his or her on reasons to hunt the way they do. No one else can determine that for you. If you or anyone else wants to hunt for big bucks only then have at it. Just enjoy yourselves and the outdoors.

I kinda look at it like this...... No one and I mean no one will remember me for the kind of deer I kill. However, they will remember me for the kind of person I was. I would rather be remembered for being a person who enjoyed hunting and the outdoors with friends and family than someone who get mad at friends and family for shooting something that didint meet my standards.


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## SILVERFOX3 (Oct 7, 2010)

The problem here is every time I pass on a small buck some one else shoots it,I still wait for a six or better.


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## bl00dtrail (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm not a fan of it.... but I didn't start my hunting career passing little ones. Any deer made me VERY happy. So I keep that in mind, not everyone has the same goals, free time, and trophy deer aspirations as me. 

....aren't all these discussions just a different way of complaining about how hard it is to arrow a mature deer..?

If it was easy everyone would be a trophy hunter...


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

SILVERFOX3 said:


> The problem here is every time I pass on a small buck some one else shoots it,I still wait for a six or better.


 Why is that a problem when someone else shoots it? I hunt on public ground and a farm that lets anyone who asks hunt it. They just want deer gone because of crop damage. I pass small buck all the time on that farm knowing that there is a good chance it won't make it through gun season. The difference to me is that if I don't shoot him he may not make it. If I do take the shot and kill him he definitely won't make it.


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.



I dont hate the people but I do wish they would leave those bucks alone and shoot does or just wait for something worth spending the money to mount. If everyone would think that way their would be alot more bigger bucks out there.


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## brushdog (May 11, 2009)

I'd tell you how i feel, but the last time i did that i got a 30 day vacation from AT. however, i now know how i feel about you


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

SILVERFOX3 said:


> The problem here is every time I pass on a small buck some one else shoots it,I still wait for a six or better.


Not always. The stateland areas I hunt in upper Michigan get pounded during the November rifle season and there have not been doe permits available here for years. Every December, while bowhunting, I always see a few little guys that survived the slaughter.


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## deerman10 (Apr 2, 2010)

Poorman, that says it all. NICE!!!!


poorman said:


> And it is honest. I just enjoy hunting. It really doesnt matter to me if I kill a big buck. I have a couple of nice ones mounted and if I ever get lucky enough to shoot a bigger one I will have it mounted. But that is not the reason I hunt. And that is all I am trying to say. Everyone has his or her on reasons to hunt the way they do. No one else can determine that for you. If you or anyone else wants to hunt for big bucks only then have at it. Just enjoy yourselves and the outdoors.
> 
> I kinda look at it like this...... No one and I mean no one will remember me for the kind of deer I kill. However, they will remember me for the kind of person I was. I would rather be remembered for being a person who enjoyed hunting and the outdoors with friends and family than someone who get mad at friends and family for shooting something that didint meet my standards.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


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## roosclan (Oct 1, 2010)

RNT said:


> I dont hate the people but I do wish they would leave those bucks alone and shoot does or just wait for something worth spending the money to mount. If everyone would think that way their would be alot more bigger bucks out there.


Because some of us don't care about spending money to hang an animal's head on the wall. We're out for hunting for the original purpose -- food! When the choices are limited, you put what you can in the freezer to feed the family. You can enjoy your unfilled tag, marinated in red wine and seasoned with black pepper because you didn't see a monster buck. Go right ahead. Tell me how it tastes. I can tell you right now, that one little tag won't go very far feeding my six kids. The spike and bb that I shot last year taste much better and lasted a lot longer than that tag of yours, or the antlers you're so obsessed about.

I have about 5 days each year to hunt. I saw a total of 3 deer in those 5 days. Three! One was a large doe that I had a bead on, but was spooked by something behind it and took off before I had a clean shot:angry:. So, I shot the deer that spooked it. Happened to be a button buck. I would have preferred the large doe, but it wasn't to be. I thought it was just a small doe until after I shot it and found it. 

As for the spike... the antlers weren't visible in the dim light (1.5"-2"). I probably still would have shot it since one deer won't last all that long in our family. Would I have preferred to shoot a large buck? Heck yes! More meat in the freezer. I would shoot a large doe before a small-bodied buck any day when given the choice, but when you don't have the option of being picky, you take what you can get to fill your kids' bellies.



123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


Translation:
"Don't shoot that deer, because I want to do it... in a few years. Don't shoot the certain kill for your freezer because the _potential_ [your words, not mine] for me to shoot it years later, might, possibly, maybe be lost (that is if it isn't hit by a car, die from disease, get killed by a predator, etc.). Don't take away my future chance to have a wall hanger just because you want to feed your family this winter. How selfish of you to take away my _potentially_ monster buck that I might see in the future, that my crystal ball and tea leaf reading tells me might possibly, maybe, hopefully (although I have no way of being certain), become a monster buck with 7 points on each side that will become mostly nocturnal and never bee seen during shooting hours, but by golly I want that chance so I can hang the head on my wall and brag about how good of a hunter I am."

You're whining about _possibly_ losing a chance at antlers, dude. Some of us are more concerned with feeding our families.


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## JakeInMa (Oct 10, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut *when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal*? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting.


That's right, every time I go into the woods I know it is the goal of you and others like you to shoot that wall hanger so I INTENTIONALLY shoot every button and spike I see so that you cannot accomplish YOUR goal. So we're all just supposed to just bow to you and let you accomplish YOUR goal? Maybe it is the goal of others to just have meat in the freezer, whether it be a button, a doe, or a wall hanger. Not everyone's goal is the same as yours as not everyone needs a wall hanger. Not all of us have access to private land where QDM is managed and not all of us give a damn about QDM. 

Where I'm at you're just lucky to even see a deer in the woods. You may go weeks without even seeing one; the numbers just aren't there like they are in other parts of the country. You think that just because some people shoot buttons or spikes that they aren't working their butts off just as hard as you are? In some parts of the country, believe it or not, people wait just as long for that button or spike to come along as you may wait for that wall hanger. I know, it's hard to believe, but it's true. We don't all have Sunday hunting either and the only day you may have to hunt is a Saturday if you're lucky. 



123 4/8 p&y said:


> Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


You sound awfully selfish and like a poor loser making this comment. Maybe if you would stop preaching to those who share the woods with you about how great a hunter you are and what a poor hunter we are then we would be more happy for you when you do shoot your wall hanger.

By telling us that we should just do what YOU want so that YOU can accomplish YOUR goal, you sound like the government trying to force feed something down the throats of the people who don't want something. Who do you think YOU are by telling us what WE THE PEOPLE should do or want? 

Tell you what, you stay in your neck of the woods and wait for your wall hanger and I'll stay in my neck of the woods and fill my freezer so my family and friends can enjoy the blessings given to us in the way of a beautiful deer, whether it be a button or a spike.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal?


OMG...can you hear yourself?

They have street signs named after you. They're called ,"Oneway"

Remember the Meat Associations motto:

"Killing Tomorrows Trophies Today"


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## billsauk (Feb 15, 2009)

fishx65 said:


> Quick question for those that love to shoot spikes and buttons: When you head into the woods, are you hoping to see a nice big buck?


there have been some years I just wanted to see a deer in shooting range! And 20 years ago or more just wanted to see a deer period.


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## RMac (Feb 4, 2005)

OMG, I didn`t realize that the rules for archery hunting were set by members on this board. Please hurry and get the book out so that peons like myself can adhere to your rules. Be sure and notify the DNR offices nation wide that your rules will override any and all rules set down by them. Please don`t hate us. :77:


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## Michigan Bob (Oct 26, 2002)

poorman said:


> Why does this have to turn into who is a bigger man and a better hunter? It has nothing to do with either? Its about getting outdoors and enjoying yourself. This is the exact reason I "hate" where hunting has gone today. Its no longer about having fun and enjoying the company of family and friends.
> 
> People spend 10's of thousands of dollars to "grow" big deer so they can claim they are the best hunters in the world.
> 
> Get outside, shoot whatever makes you happy, be happy for others who do the same.


I agree its called "An American Tradition" not an American compatition.


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## NorthCountryVT (Sep 14, 2006)

Nope. 

I'm happy for any hunter that harvests any legal deer.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


Dang! I'm ALMOST speechless! So basically, you are admitting that you are not a very skilled hunter, and are quite lazy, and want to do away with the challenge of killing that 'wallhanger' you are after, and expect everyone else to hunt the way YOU WANT them to in order to make it easy for you to kill that monster buck every year.  I need to go vomit now.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

Can't eat horns.


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

I could care less if some one shoots a spike. If they're happy w/it, I'd be happy for them just as if 
they shot a wall hanger. 

I also feel if someone has to harvest a spike, they need to improve their woodsmenship. Of course I
would rather see them grow, but to each his own. I'm not going to have harsh feelings because of it. 

They're still hunter's just the same & if it's legal I'm not judging. 

To me shooting a spike is like a friend having a ugly girlfriend. Who am I to judge. He probably just 
takes what he can get & if he's happy w/it (them), then I'm happy for them. 

Shoot whatever you want as long as it's legal. I do wish people would try harder to improve their 
woodsmenship & put a little more effort into it. To me it's the effort that's the majority of the fun.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I agree with you completely but when attacked a person will defend themselves and there personal pride every time .Hunting is about self gratification and supposed to be fun always!


I agree Nuke !


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 13, 2005)

dynotec said:


> I hate d bags that whine about what everyone else wants to shoot . I used to think like that and then i realized that is a pretty dumb way to think. so shoot what you want and have fun ,that is what it is all about anyway.I took my son hunting last night ,he is 8 by the way,and i shot a button in front of him . That little button buck just lit a fire in another young hunter and next year he will be there with me with his own gun and his own tag . That button buck was worth it ,so if the op doesn't like it or anyone else for that matter WAH WAH i could care less


do yall have a minimmum hunting age there? My daughter killed her first deer, A SPIKE BTW...LOL(please dont hate her) , about 2 weeks before her 8th birthday.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


This statement sums it all up. You want everyone else to humt like you so it will be easier for you to accomplish the goals you have set for yourself.....HMMMMM seems kinda selfish doesnt it? Some of you guys will never cease to amaze me with your selfishness.


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## AmishArcher (Feb 6, 2008)

hunt your land how you want. If I need meat, i shoot a doe. If I shoot a buck, its gonna be one that's worth my time, is older than the average, and is mature. Its far tougher to outsmart an old deer than it is a young one.

I have no problems with people whacking small bucks, its just not part of OUR managment plan. We have enough land under control via co-ops and the like, that we can safely pass the small ones. It makes for some VERY fun hunting. If you can't do that, fine, shoot your forkies, just don't complain when i hold out for a big one, or when the "TV Hunters" shoot studs. To each his own. I'm not gonna hate on you for shooting small deer, just don't hate on me for holding out. I've got plenty of does around and can fill all my tags with those if I want the meat.

also, i've noticed that many of the people who say "You can't eat horns" are those who have never held out for a big buck or felt the satisfaction of being disciplined enough and doing enough homework to get in front of a big boy.


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

how bout you trophy guys that are so bent out of shape over someone shooting a button or spike when he lives in Texas and you live in PA or wherever, just buy your own hunting ground, put up a HF and hunt for trophies all day long, since that's all that matters these days it seems.


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## eastx (Dec 30, 2008)

So when you were a kid and went out hunting for the first time with your dad or grandpa or whatever your goal was what like a 150" buck?? You were whispering in the camera that you were gonna let that 6er go cause he's not your shooter buck?? Mine was and always will be the first legal deer that walks by my stand. If I hunt anymore this season I can only shoot a spike, I still plan on going hunting, because I like hunting. Turning whitetail hunting into a state managed whitetail trophy industry will be the death of hunting. Lets be honest, it has already become about revenue. Got to have a new bow every year, new camo, the latest stands and scent control to bag that big one. Walk through the sporting area of your local box store all the products have pictures of giants on the front, why, because it sells, and thats all that matters. In Texas every resident hunter is $47 in the coffer, which isn't that bad, I don't know the non-resident prices. The trpohy industry is an afront to a lifestyle that runs much deeper than hanging big antlers on the wall.


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## AmishArcher (Feb 6, 2008)

obsessedLSS said:


> how bout you trophy guys that are so bent out of shape over someone shooting a button or spike when he lives in Texas and you live in PA or wherever, just buy your own hunting ground, put up a HF and hunt for trophies all day long, since that's all that matters these days it seems.


YOU pipe down! If we need anything outta you we'll beat it outta ya

mornin' marcus, how are ya?


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## VorTexan (Jan 8, 2005)

button bucks disturb me when one can shoot a big doe.

I'm in an antller restriction county in Texas and ufortunately our "powers that be" only allow us to take does during the peak of the rut....but do however let us take a spike and a buck over 13" wide. If I take a spike which I have done the last couple years it will be a larger sized buck that I feel should have already had a branched antler due to his size. Management if you will. I would much rather take does but when the law says no a man's got to eat.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

AmishArcher said:


> hunt your land how you want. If I need meat, i shoot a doe. If I shoot a buck, its gonna be one that's worth my time, is older than the average, and is mature. Its far tougher to outsmart an old deer than it is a young one.
> 
> I have no problems with people whacking small bucks, its just not part of OUR managment plan. We have enough land under control via co-ops and the like, that we can safely pass the small ones. It makes for some VERY fun hunting. If you can't do that, fine, shoot your forkies, just don't complain when i hold out for a big one, or when the "TV Hunters" shoot studs. To each his own. I'm not gonna hate on you for shooting small deer, just don't hate on me for holding out. I've got plenty of does around and can fill all my tags with those if I want the meat.
> 
> also, i've noticed that many of the people who say "You can't eat horns" are those who have never held out for a big buck or felt the satisfaction of being disciplined enough and doing enough homework to get in front of a big boy.


I would never hold it against you for shooting what you want. On the same token you shouldnt assume that becasue soemeone shoots a smaller deer they have no discipline or dont feel like doing their "homework". That is the point I am trying to make. For some of us its not about killing a giant its just about hunting and having fun doing it.


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

"If it's brown it's down" "I shoot the 1st deer I see cuz the population is so low" "If I don't shoot it someone else will"

These are not the kinds of things I like to read on a bowhunting enthusiest site.


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

Hate is too strong of a word............people have the right to shoot whatever they want.
BUT.....I have a tough time understanding why poeple do it sometimes. 

Lien2


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


I am not that big on button bucks but i have killed a few spikes years back but the big question is you spout off about 4 point rules just who do you and all your kind actualy think you are telling others what should be legal in reguards to antler size you hunt what you want let someone else hunt what they want but no lets try to bring N.Y. states anti hunting government into the mix.
now to your statement about just shoot a doe well why do you think the kill is way off in N.Y. the last few years and the buck take is down it has nothing to do with the guy that kills the spike it ias all the doe happy boys some zones get 4 tags from the insurance companies so go get them does every doe killed is 3 deer for the next year 1 buck per doe is gone for the next years birth so kill 50 does you have 50 less bucks born now factor the yote kill and yes the bear kill cause most don't know but fawns are a big time spring feast for bear. oh yea and i think it is higher but the state says 30% of your awsome doe kill is button bucks.


how bout live and let live hunt and let hunt you want to hatr hate the anti not thy brother hunter who is staying within the law and stop tring to change the law to suit yourself


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


:baby:


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

AmishArcher said:


> YOU pipe down! If we need anything outta you we'll beat it outta ya
> 
> mornin' marcus, how are ya?


hey buddy, doing fine amigo!

can't believe i missed a freak'n head shot on a running hog with a decked out AR green laser too on saturday night chasing them suckers in the field...oh well, was fun though! :chortle:


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## Southern Fried (Oct 31, 2009)

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blaaahh blah blah. Yes, blah blah, then no blah blah. IMO blah blah blah....I would blah. If it was me blah. 

The last thing I would ever do is blah.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 13, 2005)

VorTexan said:


> button bucks disturb me when one can shoot a big doe.
> 
> I'm in an antller restriction county in Texas and *ufortunately our "powers that be" only allow us to take does during the peak of the rut*....but do however let us take a spike and a buck over 13" wide. If I take a spike which I have done the last couple years it will be a larger sized buck that I feel should have already had a branched antler due to his size. Management if you will. I would much rather take does but when the law says no a man's got to eat.


I hate it also.. I really like our new antler restrictions and they have worked in here!! I only kill does the 1st 2 or 3 weeks of bow season and hate that the rifle "doe days" are smack in the middle of the rut. The only way i would kill a doe then is if I happen to see one that looks like she is very old and maybe not breeding anymore and if I had already killed my one 13" buck.
I think the doe days should be in late December, but I guess at that point you would be killing 2-3 deer in one shot.


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

I don't hate anyone for shooting a spike. I do hate Pot Pies though, my wife made one last week even after I told her I hated them. She thought I would like it because she made it. I had to man up and tell her I still hated pot pies. Hate is a strong word but come on those things are down right aweful!!!!!!


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## drenalinhunter1 (Feb 6, 2009)

Kansas Bruisers said:


> I don't hate anyone for shooting a spike. I do hate Pot Pies though, my wife made one last week even after I told her I hated them. She thought I would like it because she made it. I had to man up and tell her I still hated pot pies. Hate is a strong word but come on those things are down right aweful!!!!!!


:slice:


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

drenalinhunter1 said:


> :slice:


It's not funny, I choked down an entire bowl of that crap before I got the nerve to tell her how much I hated it.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

I dont understand shooting spikes where there are alot of other deer around to shoot. now if numbers are low and you shoot a spike, or can hunt only for a short time i do understand it. But if you have alot of time, and alot of deer i dont understand shooting them or button bucks.


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## mrmiskin (Feb 26, 2008)

I saw a couple young deer taken on opening day but the simple fact is with the way things are these days people are hunting for meat. Some folks are suffering big time these days and this is one way they can put meat on the table.


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## snyperholes (Nov 5, 2008)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


+11111


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## andypanda (Nov 3, 2009)

redruff said:


> I ALWAYS hold out for the big ones! Cheers!


Well done sir~! Nice kill!


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## SplashOfPee (Aug 4, 2009)

DO I hate people that do? No.


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

DesignedToHunt said:


> Why are threads like this where guys try to act tough & put others down allowed to go on for so long? Here's what it comes down to........you shoot what you want & the guy down the road can shoot what he wants. Last I checked nobody on here was anything special so there isn't a soul in the world that has to gain permission to kill an animal. When a man pays the same amount for a license that you do he has every right to put the tag on whatever he wants.


Very well put.


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## DimeTimeTom (Aug 20, 2008)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


i am a meat hunter with limited time to hunt. i WILL shoot a spike if i don't have much time left to hunt...hate me..i don't care...
AND any deer i take is a trophy in my eyes...I AM NOT A TROPHY HUNTER...

So who hates people that bash other people for stupid reasons...ME


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## arlow (Jun 16, 2005)

I hate people who hate other people whos norms or self imposed standards do not conform to their own...


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## nightcrawler (Sep 21, 2006)

I dont hate people who shoot them I agree with shooting a doe instead if possible but that is MY CHOICE. I do strongly dislike the "If I don't shoot it someone else will" mind set a lot of hunters have but to each his own.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


A spike is generally going to be the same size and age as your typical 6 point and many small 8 points too. I shot a spike this year. Guess what it weighed: 120lbs. Same as my buddy's six point. Spikes are generally 1.5 year old deer while button bucks are .5.

I hunt multiple pieces of private land along with several buddies here in upstate NY. I think between the half dozen of us, there were 3 buck older than 1.5 SEEN all season. If you live in NY state and can regularly get 2.5 year old or older deer with your bow consider yourself very very fortunate.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

vabownut said:


> Question I must ask . You say. You hate the guy if he shoots a 1.5 yr old spike right ? How about a 1.5 yr old 8 point is the same hate there


Exactly. I'm under the impression that the OP knows very little about whitetail deer.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)




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## Knot Tellin (Aug 4, 2010)

I don't hate they guy that shoots their one little buck. The thing that piss me off is the person that shoots a bunch of little bucks filling all of there families/friends tags and thinks they are some big shot. And ruins it for next year. They are always the first to ***** because they never shoot a big one.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

Knot Tellin said:


> I don't hate they guy that shoots their one little buck. The thing that piss me off is the person that shoots a bunch of little bucks filling all of there families/friends tags and thinks they are some big shot. And ruins it for next year. They are always the first to ***** because they never shoot a big one.


Sure. I wouldn't shoot multiple little ones in a season, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be too proud to shoot a deer and get skunked.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

RugerRedhawk said:


> Sure. I wouldn't shoot multiple little ones in a season, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be too proud to shoot a deer and get skunked.


Good post RR.


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## stillhoyt (Jun 27, 2008)

I hate mature hunters that shoot the baby bucks. Got no problem with kids and newbies that are learning the sport. If you care about the deer herd, you shoot doe for the freezer. Baby buck shooters get no respect from real deer hunters.


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting responses to a strongly worded post. Take the word "hate" out and you have a situation my group of hunters has dealt with for years. We have lots of does on our property so meat has never been a valid reason to shoot ANY buck, and since we also have several young hunters who have never shot a good buck it is our feeling that every buck we kill is one less the young guys will get a crack at. So we stopped shooting "does" when they are alone (almost always a young buck) and don't shoot any bucks we don't intend to mount, and the result is a huge smile when a youngster connects with one we let walk. I totally agree with what's been said about staying out of other hunters' business, but I also believe that shooting a doe instead of a 120" buck you'll almost forget about before next season is better for all of us, all the way around.


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## Wyatt in PA (Dec 17, 2008)

stillhoyt said:


> I hate mature hunters that shoot the baby bucks. Got no problem with kids and newbies that are learning the sport. If you care about the deer herd, you shoot doe for the freezer. Baby buck shooters get no respect from real *deer* hunters.


You mean buck hunters, deer hunters shoot deer, don't confuse the two.


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## Spikealot (May 27, 2009)

"Baby buck shooters get no respect from real deer hunters." 

Real Deer Hunters huh .?


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


Wow. First we have a guy who "hates" me cause I have killed button bucks and spikes and now I am lectured as to why trophy hunters are "disgusted" by me. 

It's just a freaking deer people. Passed up plenty of spikes and forks this year and even a couple deer that prob would have made book but ended up killing a 2.5 yr old deer on my last day to hunt and had a great time doing it! Bring on the hate and disgust and see if I really care. 

I killed a deer that I had a tag for and felt like killing at the time he screwed up and got too close to me. 

Trust me I don't give two squats about how my kill affected anyone but me. Stick that in ur pipe and smoke it.


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## aberg (Jul 7, 2009)

I live in a place in Iowa with lots of big bucks. When the rut hits we can see ten ten-point bucks in a day. That being said my cousin shot a 6-pointer three years ago. He was 14 it was his first year. It was tiny for our standards, but I slapped him on the back and congradulated him when he told me. For him it was about the hunt. Where I live that six pointer is like a spike. I go to college in Wisconsin. A lot of the guys here are happy to get a buck. Even a spike. I think it depends on where you live. If you live where I live in Iowa and you shot a spike. I wouldn't hate you, but I would just say you are EDIT stupid!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

RugerRedhawk said:


>


That's a shame he has a broken main beam. LOL


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

stillhoyt said:


> I hate mature hunters that shoot the baby bucks. Got no problem with kids and newbies that are learning the sport. If you care about the deer herd, you shoot doe for the freezer. Baby buck shooters get no respect from real deer hunters.


Someone please tell me this post is a joke. Please !!!!!!!!!

If not then can someone please take this guys copy of Bambi and stomp it right in front of him. I bet he cries.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Wyatt in PA said:


> You mean buck hunters, deer hunters shoot deer, don't confuse the two.


I think you nailed right on the head my friend. This is the problem with this argument. Some people cant understand there is a difference.


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## crazy wolf (Sep 11, 2006)

To hate another hunter for the way he hunts , or for what he hunts and kills, no longer makes you a hunter. Just a HATER , Damn shame for this type of thinking. Its what will end hunting forever... And dont tell me it wont ever happen , cause your only foolin youself. Its not your tag, and it aint your kill. Matter of fact... it aint your hunt at all. Is this really so hard to understand ? Weird how some fisherman will throw back most of the big ones, and just keep some smaller ones to feed his family aint it ? Weird I know. When is big enough, big enough to take ? Theres a new look coming soon , and it will be over how much the animal weighs is what will determine if he is ready to be taken. 



Crazy Wolf.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

You guys keep refering to him as selfish. I think you got it all wrong. Hes willing to let deer go so that others with less time or patience can enjoy killing a deer that he let walk. If it wasnt for guys like him you wouldnt have any deer to shoot. I would never pull the trigger on anything i wouldnt be proud of or need. 97 percent of you guys on here dont need the meat to sustain life. You selfishly kill the small jenky deer so you can eat him. Trophy hunters eat the deer but dont do it in a selfish way because they only want to eat them. I am by far no trophy hunter. I have never killed anything bigger than a small 8 pointer. I can tell you that what gets me into the woods isnt to feed my family. Sure i like to eat the deer but im not selfish enough to take a deers life that i didnt need to kill for food. It really does boil down to are you able to hold out for a quality animal? Most of the guys that kill small deer always have excuses like i dont have time or the deer are all small here. these are only reasons to help the guy feel better about killing an animal he is ashamed of. If you cant spend enough time to harvest a good deer then why bother. The fun to most of us normal guys is the hunt. IF it were easy everyone would kill nice animals but most wont spend the time and effort it takes to pattern and take a large deer. Its ok if you guys admit this. Its like AA you have to admit you have a problem before you can be helped. " Hi im jimbo and i cant pass small deer so they can grow", im just so hungry. Alot of you guys live in big buck states so why not hold out for the best animal. I understand if it gets towards the end of a tough season and you have hunted your butt off and havent seen anything good. Sure shoot a small deer. If you kill a spike on the first day of the season it cant feel good, i dont care who you are. unless you NEED the meat to survive. I think deer hunting is alot like life. Some people want to do the best they possibly can and other just dont care and wanna survive. I think if its a kid and its his or hers first or second deer then go for it. If your a grown man and dont need deer for meat then wouldnt it be fair to say your the one being selfish in taking a deers life you didnt need to take. I think so





123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> You guys keep refering to him as selfish. I think you got it all wrong. Hes willing to let deer go so that others with less time or patience can enjoy killing a deer that he let walk. If it wasnt for guys like him you wouldnt have any deer to shoot. I would never pull the trigger on anything i wouldnt be proud of or need. 97 percent of you guys on here dont need the meat to sustain life. You selfishly kill the small jenky deer so you can eat him. Trophy hunters eat the deer but dont do it in a selfish way because they only want to eat them. I am by far no trophy hunter. I have never killed anything bigger than a small 8 pointer. I can tell you that what gets me into the woods isnt to feed my family. Sure i like to eat the deer but im not selfish enough to take a deers life that i didnt need to kill for food. It really does boil down to are you able to hold out for a quality animal? Most of the guys that kill small deer always have excuses like i dont have time or the deer are all small here. these are only reasons to help the guy feel better about killing an animal he is ashamed of. If you cant spend enough time to harvest a good deer then why bother. The fun to most of us normal guys is the hunt. IF it were easy everyone would kill nice animals but most wont spend the time and effort it takes to pattern and take a large deer. Its ok if you guys admit this. Its like AA you have to admit you have a problem before you can be helped. " Hi im jimbo and i cant pass small deer so they can grow", im just so hungry. Alot of you guys live in big buck states so why not hold out for the best animal. I understand if it gets towards the end of a tough season and you have hunted your butt off and havent seen anything good. Sure shoot a small deer. If you kill a spike on the first day of the season it cant feel good, i dont care who you are. unless you NEED the meat to survive. I think deer hunting is alot like life. Some people want to do the best they possibly can and other just dont care and wanna survive. I think if its a kid and its his or hers first or second deer then go for it. If your a grown man and dont need deer for meat then wouldnt it be fair to say your the one being selfish in taking a deers life you didnt need to take. I think so


Wow! I'm all for passing on small bucks but you are gonna get slammed by fellow Archerytalkers for this post.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

flyin2jz said:


> You guys keep refering to him as selfish. I think you got it all wrong. Hes willing to let deer go so that others with less time or patience can enjoy killing a deer that he let walk. If it wasnt for guys like him you wouldnt have any deer to shoot. I would never pull the trigger on anything i wouldnt be proud of or need. 97 percent of you guys on here dont need the meat to sustain life. You selfishly kill the small jenky deer so you can eat him. Trophy hunters eat the deer but dont do it in a selfish way because they only want to eat them. I am by far no trophy hunter. I have never killed anything bigger than a small 8 pointer. I can tell you that what gets me into the woods isnt to feed my family. Sure i like to eat the deer but im not selfish enough to take a deers life that i didnt need to kill for food. It really does boil down to are you able to hold out for a quality animal? Most of the guys that kill small deer always have excuses like i dont have time or the deer are all small here. *these are only reasons to help the guy feel better about killing an animal he is ashamed of*. If you cant spend enough time to harvest a good deer then why bother. The fun to most of us normal guys is the hunt. IF it were easy everyone would kill nice animals but most wont spend the time and effort it takes to pattern and take a large deer. Its ok if you guys admit this. Its like AA you have to admit you have a problem before you can be helped. " Hi im jimbo and i cant pass small deer so they can grow", im just so hungry. Alot of you guys live in big buck states so why not hold out for the best animal. I understand if it gets towards the end of a tough season and you have hunted your butt off and havent seen anything good. Sure shoot a small deer. If you kill a spike on the first day of the season it cant feel good, i dont care who you are. unless you NEED the meat to survive. I think deer hunting is alot like life. Some people want to do the best they possibly can and other just dont care and wanna survive. I think if its a kid and its his or hers first or second deer then go for it. If your a grown man and dont need deer for meat then wouldnt it be fair to say your the one being selfish in taking a deers life you didnt need to take. I think so


I can promise you I have never killed a deer I was ashamed of, EVER! Lets be real for a minute... There are very few of us if any on this forum that actually need to kill a deer to survive. So then it comes down to the real reason we hunt. And everyone has there own reasons. Some of us hunt because we just like the hunt itself. Some hunt because they enjoy pursuing monster bucks. And others just hunt to fill the freezer. 

The bottom line is we all have our own reasons for hunting and should acknowledge that our way may not be someone elses way. I am fine with the fact the you dont hunt the way I do. Why cant you feel the same?


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

ITs ok fishx65, i just feel like he was being bashed like he was doing something wrong by passing small deer. He is just hunting the way he wants to just like everyone else. Except for the fact that hes letting deer go that wouldnt make him happy. Whats so wrong with that? If he shot the small ones or all of us just shot small ones then their numbers would be way down. THen no kids or hunters who havent killed deer or need the meat wouldnt be able to harvest them. I say slam away guys sometimes you have to look at why you kill the deer. Its like going drag racing at the track and let off before the end of the track. Why would anyone do this, you never know what the car runs in the quarter mile if you let off early. I am not afraid to eat tag soup one bit. I would feel much better if i hunted all year and didnt kill anything than to kill an animal that i didnt need or want because it was a nice deer. Its about the hunt like you guys keep saying. So then why dont you hunt instead of killing jenky little deer


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

people who need meat to survive please ignore my post because those werent directed towards you at all. 45yr old guy on a leased property out of state hunt who just paid 1500 bux for your lease the posts are for you. YOu dont need the meat to survive, id call that selfish


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

flyin2jz said:


> You guys keep refering to him as selfish. I think you got it all wrong. Hes willing to let deer go so that others with less time or patience can enjoy killing a deer that he let walk. If it wasnt for guys like him you wouldnt have any deer to shoot. I would never pull the trigger on anything i wouldnt be proud of or need. 97 percent of you guys on here dont need the meat to sustain life. You selfishly kill the small jenky deer so you can eat him. Trophy hunters eat the deer but dont do it in a selfish way because they only want to eat them. I am by far no trophy hunter. I have never killed anything bigger than a small 8 pointer. I can tell you that what gets me into the woods isnt to feed my family. Sure i like to eat the deer but im not selfish enough to take a deers life that i didnt need to kill for food. It really does boil down to are you able to hold out for a quality animal? Most of the guys that kill small deer always have excuses like i dont have time or the deer are all small here. these are only reasons to help the guy feel better about killing an animal he is ashamed of. If you cant spend enough time to harvest a good deer then why bother. The fun to most of us normal guys is the hunt. IF it were easy everyone would kill nice animals but most wont spend the time and effort it takes to pattern and take a large deer. Its ok if you guys admit this. Its like AA you have to admit you have a problem before you can be helped. " Hi im jimbo and i cant pass small deer so they can grow", im just so hungry. Alot of you guys live in big buck states so why not hold out for the best animal. I understand if it gets towards the end of a tough season and you have hunted your butt off and havent seen anything good. Sure shoot a small deer. If you kill a spike on the first day of the season it cant feel good, i dont care who you are. unless you NEED the meat to survive. I think deer hunting is alot like life. Some people want to do the best they possibly can and other just dont care and wanna survive. I think if its a kid and its his or hers first or second deer then go for it. If your a grown man and dont need deer for meat then wouldnt it be fair to say your the one being selfish in taking a deers life you didnt need to take. I think so


How can you possibly know what 97% of hunters need? Everybody's situation is different..... just as are their reasons for hunting, and shooting what they want is different. Do I have to shoot something to survive? Hell no, but no one individual is going to tell me what I can shoot. My very first deer scored over 144" and guess what? I don't even know where the rack is and I really don't care. Not all locations have the trophy buck potential that other places have, and most "true hunters" don't have the time or resources to put in trying to get a "trophy". ....and by "true hunters" I mean those guys and gals that hunt for the experience, for the challenge...and YES for the meat. I have nothing against guys that get off on seeing pictures of themselves plastered all over the internet or the "Holy Grail" on some magazine cover. If they put in the time and effort and accomplish what they set out to do, great, I'm happy for them, they should also be happy for others who put in the time and effort and accomplish what they set out to do.


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

*Spoken like a true Texan...............*



Hornporn said:


> Contradiction of terms??? You obviously haven't a clue. Yes, you can have older spikes. I can assure you of this. My family owns a very sizable low fence ranch in South Texas. We employ a full time biologist and and intern biologist. I can age a buck with the best of them. I was born into whitetail management. And we have an awesome place to hunt.
> 
> Passing deer is not for everyone. It's just the way it is. We shoot any and every 4 1/2 8 point buck we see, and for "trophy" deer 5 1/2 minimum. That's just the way it is on our place.
> 
> ...



I know three of my buddies live there............have been friends with them through some bad stuff and would back them in a second, but they brag alot to about their deer hunting ground.

Bring your butt up here where the snow will crust to your backside and our feed fields are in excess of 500 acres of corn, beans or alfalfa................then tell me how you will be hammering mature bucks. Heard that b.s. before and it comes with the pointy little boots you guys wear......with your pants tucked in to keep the b.s. from getting down you leg.

What the heck makes you think anyone gives a rats butt what you hammer and how you do it.................people buy a tag to hunt deer legally and nobody.........not even some loud mouth Texans have a right to down talk them.

So, go be a legend in your own mind while I go slam my broadheads through some more northern deer on steriods. Darn Texans, heads our as big as their mouths............at least thats what I tell my buddies from San Antonio and Fort Worth. Another legend in the making.:wink:

Top


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## Jfriesner (Nov 26, 2009)

I don't hate them but I do wish they passed them up. A lot of people say they shoot spikes/button bucks, fawns, whatever you want to call them, for meat. Well your lucky to get 35lbs of meat out of a fawn. they're isn't much on them. Less then half of whats on a mature doe/buck. So I don't think meat is a really good argument for why to shoot a fawn over a mature animal.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Still a pizzin' match, I see. LOL! 

Has anyone here changed their minds about what they will actually kill. I mean, have any of the "meat hunters" wised up and decided to hold for better/bigger deer..... NO !!!! Have any trophy hunters decided that they should just become "brown & downers" and kill 'em all...... NO !!! LOL! 

But it's always funny to read the different opinions here and to see just how strange some folks' thought process really is ?!? LOL!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I guess im weird. Everything i try to do in life i try to do it do the fullest. I was taught that very young and it has stuck with me. I guess im the one who is weird then. Ill call my dad tonight and tell him he had it all wrong. I should strive to just do things just enough to survive. I dont do anything half ass in life and wasnt raised to do so. I wouldt go to a lake to fish for bluegill with a bobber when there are tons of bass in it or walleyes. Id rather catch nothing than catch 50 bluegill. Call me stupid but its the way im wired. if your in a state where the deer pop is down then hey i might take a small deer and you have a valid reason to do this. Iowa or ohio you just have to put your time in and wait for a quality animal. I have the patience and persistence to do this. Its not about the kill to me as it is the chase and thats probably why i believe the way i do. Its not easy to kill a nice deer. And to the poster above with the 140 class deer that is a trophy in my eyes and woulda taken it also. A spike the following year would have been a failure for me...


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

oh deer God these button buck tenerloins taste GREAT!


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## stonecoldkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

This crap still going? LMAO 14 pages and nobody can decided if they will kill a deer or not. *Eat, Sleep, Hunt Be Happy* with what you get what you have and let everyone else do the same. Simple solution to the problem. JMO.:smile::smile::smile::teeth::shade::banana::grin::set1_applaud::RockOn::happy:


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Skeptic stirrin the pot. Love it.


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## reezen11 (Oct 22, 2009)

as far as i am concerned your all alone...





T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

flyin2jz said:


> Skeptic stirrin the pot. Love it.


I even used the buttons as a garnish! I hate to waste any part of the animal!


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> oh deer God these button buck tenerloins taste GREAT!


Do baby deer really taste better then adult deer? I've eaten both but never really paid attention. I've also heard there is a taste difference between farm country and deep woods deer.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

fishx65 said:


> Do baby deer really taste better then adult deer? I've eaten both but never really paid attention. I've also heard there is a taste difference between farm country and deep woods deer.


Yes, there honestly is a HUGE difference in quality of meat!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Veal.......:smile:


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

fishx65 said:


> Do baby deer really taste better then adult deer? I've eaten both but never really paid attention. I've also heard there is a taste difference between farm country and deep woods deer.


They sure do!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I wouldn't know. I have never killed a big buck or a yearling. Only killed a jenky 8 and he tasted pretty good. And a couple small does. They all seemed to taste the same. Maybe I'm not good at cooking them. Any good recipies for a trophy hunter who never kills trophies. Lol


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.


Ha ha, I got a lot of responses so I will reply to my own post. You guys cry about how we push our method of hunting on everyone else. Well, why would we want to stand back and watch our hunting go down the tubes and not say anything about it? How can you call me lazy or not skilled? I sit in my stand and watch dozens of deer walk by that you brown and downers would shoot in a heartbeat. I'm just trying to say that you guys don't play on my team or do anything to benefit my hunting, so where is my motivation to look out for your best interests? You certainly aren't looking out for mine! If you guys wouldn't kill spikes and buttons, we wouldn't complain about it and support management programs that make it illegal. Make sense? Flame away.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

flyin2jz said:


> I wouldn't know. I have never killed a big buck or a yearling. Only killed a jenky 8 and he tasted pretty good. And a couple small does. They all seemed to taste the same. Maybe I'm not good at cooking them. Any good recipies for a trophy hunter who never kills trophies. Lol


Don't overcook! Get meat chilled within 2 hrs of kill. Cook to medium!


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## Buckeyehunter12 (Oct 19, 2006)

flyin2jz said:


> I guess im weird. Everything i try to do in life i try to do it do the fullest. I was taught that very young and it has stuck with me. I guess im the one who is weird then. Ill call my dad tonight and tell him he had it all wrong. I should strive to just do things just enough to survive. I dont do anything half ass in life and wasnt raised to do so. I wouldt go to a lake to fish for bluegill with a bobber when there are tons of bass in it or walleyes. Id rather catch nothing than catch 50 bluegill. Call me stupid but its the way im wired. if your in a state where the deer pop is down then hey i might take a small deer and you have a valid reason to do this. Iowa or ohio you just have to put your time in and wait for a quality animal. I have the patience and persistence to do this. Its not about the kill to me as it is the chase and thats probably why i believe the way i do. Its not easy to kill a nice deer. And to the poster above with the 140 class deer that is a trophy in my eyes and woulda taken it also. A spike the following year would have been a failure for me...


You are just a superior human being! Alpha male for sure!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I agree 123. We are the selfish ones for letting the little guys go so the hunters with less time and patience can kill them. Lol. And we are the bad guys. Think about how dumb that sounds guys. We help u guys every day and get kicked in the junk because we want to wait for a big one. If u don't think a small buck is easier to kill than a big one your probably a brown and downer who spends 4 hrs a week in the woods and gets bored if nothings happening and goes home. Your relying on luck to get a deer over persistence and patience. A trophy is in the eye of the hunter. I get this but a button or a spike is the easy answer to what u call deer hunting


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## AmishArcher (Feb 6, 2008)

flyin, i see what you're saying, but just as no one else is going to convince you that you're wrong, you're not going to convince any others that they are. 

I pass on young bucks because of what they could be. That said, i'll shoot year and a half does all day. I try to stay away from fawns, b/c there's not much challenge in it for me, but i've been known to "mistake" a lone fawn for a full sized doe.

A doe a year old will always be a doe. A buck can continue to age, get smarter, and be an even greater challenge to outsmart and kill. Therefore they get a pass til they're old enough to outsmart me regularly. Thats what makes it so much fun when I do connect on one.

That's my strategy, but if you don't like it, do your thing. And if you've never held out for a 3 or 4 year old buck, try it sometimes. They're so frustrating to try to get on, but anything worth having is worth waiting for.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

flyin2jz said:


> I agree 123. We are the selfish ones for letting the little guys go so the hunters with less time and patience can kill them. Lol. And we are the bad guys. Think about how dumb that sounds guys. We help u guys every day and get kicked in the junk because we want to wait for a big one. If u don't think a small buck is easier to kill than a big one your probably a brown and downer who spends 4 hrs a week in the woods and gets bored if nothings happening and goes home. Your relying on luck to get a deer over persistence and patience. A trophy is in the eye of the hunter. I get this but a button or a spike is the easy answer to what u call deer hunting


Imagine a scenario where everyone thought like you, and thus passed up 100's of thousands of opportunities to kill does each year throughout the country. Almost every state would have to hire sharpshooters to keep deer numbers in check. Sharpshooters that would not care what the sex was....their goal would be to KILL under any and all circumstances!

You should thank your fellow hunters for keeping numbers in check, despite the fact it might make it more difficult for you to get that "wallhanger" your after!:wink:


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

I find it hard to believe that people with the OP's attitude are doing it for altruistic purposes! I'm calling BS on that one!


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

AmishArcher said:


> flyin, i see what you're saying, but just as no one else is going to convince you that you're wrong, you're not going to convince any others that they are.
> 
> I pass on young bucks because of what they could be. That said, i'll shoot year and a half does all day. I try to stay away from fawns, b/c there's not much challenge in it for me, but i've been known to "mistake" a lone fawn for a full sized doe.
> 
> ...


Kinda funny because I've literally passed up 3 or 4 3.5 year old bucks this year that just didn't do it for me:noidea:.....now that fawn doe that weighed 30 lbs last week....not sure why, but she got me excited! And she was WELL worth it! I personally am quite willing to pass up most bucks, however, a fawn, due to the quality of meat....is my weakness! I am fine with everyone else hunting and passing up whatever they want. I do take offense when someone else tried to tell me what they think I should do though....in order to make their hunt easier:doh:. Sometimes antlers get me excited....I do enjoy putting one on the wall once in a while, however, I have quite a few deer on the wall under 125" that I am more proud of than my deer that go over that......the experience is much more important to me than antler size. My favorite buck mount barely makes 100" but has a very unique double white throat patch. Many people that have seen him in person have said it's the most beautiful deer they've ever seen. I'll take that any day over a P&Y scoring buck.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Jfriesner said:


> I don't hate them but I do wish they passed them up. A lot of people say they shoot spikes/button bucks, fawns, whatever you want to call them, for meat. Well your lucky to get 35lbs of meat out of a fawn. they're isn't much on them. Less then half of whats on a mature doe/buck. So I don't think meat is a really good argument for why to shoot a fawn over a mature animal.


Then you've never eaten fawn. It's fabulous.:wink:


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## Jfriesner (Nov 26, 2009)

spiker_01 said:


> Then you've never eaten fawn. It's fabulous.:wink:


I've eaten it. I've shot fawns before too. But if i'm trying to put meat in the freezer i'm not looking for fawns. I'm looking for big older does.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Ha ha, I got a lot of responses so I will reply to my own post. You guys cry about how we push our method of hunting on everyone else. Well, why would we want to stand back and watch our hunting go down the tubes and not say anything about it? How can you call me lazy or not skilled? I sit in my stand and watch dozens of deer walk by that you brown and downers would shoot in a heartbeat. I'm just trying to say that you guys don't play on my team or do anything to benefit my hunting, so where is my motivation to look out for your best interests? You certainly aren't looking out for mine! If you guys wouldn't kill spikes and buttons, we wouldn't complain about it and support management programs that make it illegal. Make sense? Flame away.


LOL...you'll just never get it.:zip:


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## Brshpile (Nov 4, 2010)




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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Jfriesner said:


> I've eaten it. I've shot fawns before too. But if i'm trying to put meat in the freezer i'm not looking for fawns. I'm looking for big older does.


As a former chef, I find that the older does are not as tastey as a fawn, or an 18 month old spike. I specialize in venison dishes, and I am thinking of publishing a cook book.

I'll be sure to provide the best ages for the deer to go along with my recipes.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Ha ha, I got a lot of responses so I will reply to my own post. You guys cry about how we push our method of hunting on everyone else. Well, why would we want to stand back and watch our hunting go down the tubes and not say anything about it? How can you call me lazy or not skilled? I sit in my stand and watch dozens of deer walk by that you brown and downers would shoot in a heartbeat. * I'm just trying to say that you guys don't play on my team or do anything to benefit my hunting, so where is my motivation to look out for your best interests? You certainly aren't looking out for mine!* If you guys wouldn't kill spikes and buttons, we wouldn't complain about it and support management programs that make it illegal. Make sense? Flame away.


No it doesnt make sense. I look out for you every time I buy a hunting licsense. Every time I re-up my NRA membership. Every time I make a donation to a hunting club. Every time I argue with a non hunter about the fact that hunting is a good thing. In other words we are all in this together and if we dont realize it we will all end up sitting back and watching our hunting rights go down the tubes. 

I have never argued that a Trophy hunter should change his ways. That he should shoot smaller deer. The only thing I have argued is that we should all realize that everyone is different and hunts for their own reasons.

When is the last time you seen a thread titled " Anyone else hate those damned big buck hunters" ?


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## Jfriesner (Nov 26, 2009)

spiker_01 said:


> As a former chef, I find that the older does are not as tastey as a fawn, or an 18 month old spike. I specialize in venison dishes, and I am thinking of publishing a cook book.
> 
> I'll be sure to provide the best ages for the deer to go along with my recipes.


Not disagreeing with you as it seems you know more about this then I. But my personal experience has been that just about any deer, short of a juiced up rutting buck, tastes about the same as long as its kept clean, aged properly, stored properly, and prepared properly. Even an old doe is tender as a fawn after hanging 1-2 weeks.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

poorman said:


> And it is honest. I just enjoy hunting. It really doesnt matter to me if I kill a big buck. I have a couple of nice ones mounted and if I ever get lucky enough to shoot a bigger one I will have it mounted. But that is not the reason I hunt. And that is all I am trying to say. Everyone has his or her on reasons to hunt the way they do. No one else can determine that for you. If you or anyone else wants to hunt for big bucks only then have at it. Just enjoy yourselves and the outdoors.
> 
> I kinda look at it like this...... No one and I mean no one will remember me for the kind of deer I kill. However, they will remember me for the kind of person I was. I would rather be remembered for being a person who enjoyed hunting and the outdoors with friends and family than someone who get mad at friends and family for shooting something that didint meet my standards.


Poorman just what I was thinking what's more important the size of the rack on the deer you shoot or the type of person you are when you hunt with friends and family. Mounts and scores fade with time but the fun and memories can last forever. 

Good Hunting Roger


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

poorman said:


> No it doesnt make sense. *I look out for you every time I buy a hunting licsense. Every time I re-up my NRA membership. Every time I make a donation to a hunting club. Every time I argue with a non hunter about th fact that hunting is a good thing.* In other words we are all in this together and if we dont ralize it we will all end up sitting back and watching our hunting right go down the tubes.
> 
> I have never argued that a Trophy hunter should change his ways. That he should shoot smaller deer. The only thing I have argued is that we should all realize that everyone is different and hunts for their own reasons.
> 
> When is the last time you seen a thread titled " Anyone else hate those damned big buck hunters" ?


I do the same thing for you.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I do the same thing for you.


Exactly! And weather you believe it or not, I appreciate it. So..... You hunt your way and I'll hunt mine and we will both be happy. I wont ever tell you what you should or shouldn't do and you do the same for me.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

poorman said:


> No it doesnt make sense. I look out for you every time I buy a hunting licsense. Every time I re-up my NRA membership. Every time I make a donation to a hunting club. Every time I argue with a non hunter about the fact that hunting is a good thing. In other words we are all in this together and if we dont realize it we will all end up sitting back and watching our hunting rights go down the tubes.
> 
> I have never argued that a Trophy hunter should change his ways. That he should shoot smaller deer. The only thing I have argued is that we should all realize that everyone is different and hunts for their own reasons.
> 
> When is the last time you seen a thread titled " Anyone else hate those damned big buck hunters" ?


Again good post Poorman the hunters who say all deer are trophies are including those who feel the need to only kill big bucks that's your prerogative we are not judging you, we do feel that attacking other hunters for shooting legal deer because it might infringe on your hunting is selfish and elitist. Show me any concrete proof that _*all*_ spikes and buttons will grow into what you consider a trophy, there are too many variables to even consider, and when you're talking about public land in some cases deer management take president over trophy management. Then you get into the other argument as to what constitutes a trophy, who get's to decide that, I'm sure that the guy with several nice eight points wants to make it a ten point and so on. It never stops it's not about the sport it's about numbers and topping the other guy or girl and ego more than enjoyment of the hunt. Otherwise why attack or put down fellow hunters for doing the same exact thing you want to do kill a deer, you'd actually think it would be the opposite that you'd be happy that the trophies are still wandering the woods for you.

As for anyone who shoots a spike or button being lazy or unskilled is just another example of that selfish elitist attitude trying to put anyone who doesn't agree with their philosophy down and make them themselves feel better. A true sportsman should be concerned with conducting *him or her self in an ethical and positive manner *so that others will want to be a part of our ranks not set up some kind of tier system that only a few can belong to and look down on others. As long as we have those in our ranks that are more concerned with what they shoot and want to control or force their expectations on everyone we will always have dissension amongst our ranks. You only have to look at other countries and their hunting opportunities to realize where this goes to the rich and well healed not the average Joe. I'd rather hunt with a kid and be part of their hunt for a spike than a 10,000 hunt on a trophy ranch for whitetail with a horn crazed hunter any day, why, because I know that next week he'll be looking for something bigger and the kid will just wanna go *hunting* again!

Good Hunting, Roger


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

poorman said:


> Exactly! And weather you believe it or not, I appreciate it. So..... You hunt your way and I'll hunt mine and we will both be happy. I wont ever tell you what you should or shouldn't do and you do the same for me.


I never told anyone what they should or shouldn't shoot. I never said "you shouldn't shoot button bucks." My message is "if you don't shoot button bucks they can grow up and be killed by someone who will appreciate their antlers". I'm just offering food for thought to people who apparently think differently than I do.


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## Savage Daddy (Oct 25, 2010)

Wanna ride my bike?


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Jfriesner said:


> Not disagreeing with you as it seems you know more about this then I. But my personal experience has been that just about any deer, short of a juiced up rutting buck, tastes about the same as long as its kept clean, aged properly, stored properly, and prepared properly. Even an old doe is tender as a fawn after hanging 1-2 weeks.


I wish I could age them, but with the warmer temps we've been having, I've been butchering them pretty quick. I agree that a well aged deer is great, no matter what the age of the deer is.


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## roosclan (Oct 1, 2010)

poorman said:


> When is the last time you seen a thread titled " Anyone else hate those damned big buck hunters" ?


Well... they have made it impossible for us locals here in KS to hunt anywhere unless we're willing to pay $1000 or more to shoot a doe. Trophy hunting has made landowners greedy because they know someone will pay $1000 or more for a small lease to shoot a trophy. Us locals who are willing to shoot only does are expected to pay the same price. Excuse me, but if I'm going to pay $1,000+ to put meat in the freezer, I'll buy a cow & have it butchered. I'll get a lot more meat out of it. Do I want a big buck? Sure, as it means more meat in the freezer; however, I'd take a big-bodied 6-pointer over an average-bodied buck with huge "trophy" antlers any day of the week.


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## JakeInMa (Oct 10, 2009)

flyin2jz said:


> It really does boil down to are you able to hold out for a quality animal?


Who makes the determination what is a QUALITY animal as you stated? As far as I'm concerned, if it's walking through the woods, then it is QUALITY in God's eyes so it's good enough for me.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

Jfriesner said:


> I don't hate them but I do wish they passed them up. A lot of people say they shoot spikes/button bucks, fawns, whatever you want to call them, for meat. Well your lucky to get 35lbs of meat out of a fawn. they're isn't much on them. Less then half of whats on a mature doe/buck. So I don't think meat is a really good argument for why to shoot a fawn over a mature animal.


Another post that fails to distinguish the difference between a spike and a button. I wonder how many people like this get mad when somebody shoots a 1.5 year old 8 point? Same age. Same size. Same weight. Same difficulty. Same effect on the heard. Just less pretty antlers.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> I agree 123. We are the selfish ones for letting the little guys go so the hunters with less time and patience can kill them. Lol. And we are the bad guys. Think about how dumb that sounds guys. We help u guys every day and get kicked in the junk because we want to wait for a big one. If u don't think a small buck is easier to kill than a big one your probably a brown and downer who spends 4 hrs a week in the woods and gets bored if nothings happening and goes home. Your relying on luck to get a deer over persistence and patience. A trophy is in the eye of the hunter. I get this but a button or a spike is the easy answer to what u call deer hunting


I don't think anyone is criticizing the trophy hunters for being trophy hunters. They're criticizing only the trophy hunters who think they're better than hunters who shoot to fill their tags, or don't have the time, location, or whatever to kill monsters. I guess where I hunt you have to decide whether you want to shoot a trophy every 5 years and nothing in between, or have a good chance at shooting a deer every year and still get a trophy every 5-10 years.


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## Knot Tellin (Aug 4, 2010)

Hey its your choice what you shoot, as long as you follow the rules. I have been skunked on getting a buck more than one year and guess what it doesn't bother me one bit. I would rather let the 1.5yr old deer walk and just take a doe. I personally think the does eat better anyway. 
I seen someone on here has this for a signature that goes something like this I like it. Unfilled tags are not the sign of failure; they are tickets for future opportunities.



RugerRedhawk said:


> Sure. I wouldn't shoot multiple little ones in a season, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be too proud to shoot a deer and get skunked.


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## ldoch (Dec 12, 2006)

Many people on here have the choice of whether to shoot a bigger buck or take a spike. There are many more that simply do not have that choice. The spike may be the only deer during the hunting season, time they have to hunt that presents a shot and that includes does. Hate what you want it should affect no one else and congratulations on having the land/time to make the choice of deer to take.
I also doubt that many that are in the situation that taking a spike may be the only deer presenting itself for not only one season but possibly many seasons are the ones complaining about not getting bigger deer.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I like ur thoughts on that. I really have to see a buck that does it for me. I have to have that heart beating out of my chest feeling before I will take it. I have passed on bucks this year that were way bigger than anything I've taken before. I think once I saw this monster buck on my property it ruined me. I want him and him only. I feel like it's a goal at this point. I wish I could take a smaller buck and be happy but I just feel like I've killed it to have the meat. Me and my daughter are the only ones in my family that will eat it. That may be a factor in the back of my mind also why I won't kill small bucks. I'm so jacked up that I won't even kill does anymore because they make bucks. I think I need professional help for this. Lol 




Skeptic said:


> Kinda funny because I've literally passed up 3 or 4 3.5 year old bucks this year that just didn't do it for me:noidea:.....now that fawn doe that weighed 30 lbs last week....not sure why, but she got me excited! And she was WELL worth it! I personally am quite willing to pass up most bucks, however, a fawn, due to the quality of meat....is my weakness! I am fine with everyone else hunting and passing up whatever they want. I do take offense when someone else tried to tell me what they think I should do though....in order to make their hunt easier:doh:. Sometimes antlers get me excited....I do enjoy putting one on the wall once in a while, however, I have quite a few deer on the wall under 125" that I am more proud of than my deer that go over that......the experience is much more important to me than antler size. My favorite buck mount barely makes 100" but has a very unique double white throat patch. Many people that have seen him in person have said it's the most beautiful deer they've ever seen. I'll take that any day over a P&Y scoring buck.


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

Knot Tellin said:


> Hey its your choice what you shoot, as long as you follow the rules. I have been skunked on getting a buck more than one year and guess what it doesn't bother me one bit. I would rather let the 1.5yr old deer walk and just take a doe. I personally think the does eat better anyway.
> I seen someone on here has this for a signature that goes something like this I like it. Unfilled tags are not the sign of failure; they are tickets for future opportunities.


Un filled tags? I just shoot a doe! In OH we can fill our buck tag with a doe. I haven't shot an "antlered" deer in 6 years. I get about one BB a year though. I like the fact that land owners can trust me not to kill "their" buck and will let me cull does for them. 

Antler obsession is not a desease I suffer from would make a better sig. Hmm...


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## Scottebay (Nov 8, 2007)

First off I don't hate anyone. Each situation is different. If there are larger bucks available and it just takes a little patience to get one then I have a problem. We will not shoot anything smaller than a decent 8 pointer. I waited 6 years between buck to get one. If you can be patient, then you will be rewarded. If you go through the whole season without a seeing a nice buck or doe then I am ok with someone shooting a spike (as a last resort.) my $.02


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

You do realize that a 123 4/8" buck would have been a real trophy the following year, right? Why did you harvest that deer, and take away someone else's opportunity for a true trophy. I find your attitude and actions to be selfish. 

:wink:


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

On most of the hunting forums I participate on this thread would have been closed a long time ago. The fact that it has not tells me that this website rocks and I'm gonna be a member for a long time. Besides the bickering, it's very interesting to hear the reasons why hunters choose to arrow different age brackets of the herd. After all, we are the stewards of this wonderful resource.


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## link06 (Mar 3, 2008)

I really don't think it's anyone's buisness what I or anyone else kills and if someone doesn't like it they better get over it pretty quick! If I'm trying to manage a piece of private property that's one thing, but on public land be proud of your kill and love every bite!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

MOC said:


> You do realize that a 123 4/8" buck would have been a real trophy the following year, right? Why did you harvest that deer, and take away someone else's opportunity for a true trophy. I find your attitude and actions to be selfish.
> 
> :wink:


Yea I shot him 9 seasons ago and I think he was 3.5 years old. I got him on public land here in Nebraska. It was my first buck that was over 1.5 years old. Ever since then killing immature bucks hasn't been as exciting. I've taken a few 2.5 year olds that looked like mature bucks in the heat of the moment but suffered from severe ground shrinkage by the time I found them. But over the years I've learned more about aging bucks and I've tried to show more restraint on the marginal ones. I'm not a trophy killer yet but it's what I'm working for. Our family farm isn't that great and there is a lot of rifle hunting pressure in the area. But a few of the bucks I've passed have been showing up on my cameras the next year so I'm sticking to the plan.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea I shot him 9 seasons ago and I think he was 3.5 years old. I got him on public land here in Nebraska. It was my first buck that was over 1.5 years old. Ever since then killing immature bucks hasn't been as exciting. I've taken a few 2.5 year olds that looked like mature bucks in the heat of the moment but suffered from severe ground shrinkage by the time I found them. But over the years I've learned more about aging bucks and I've tried to show more restraint on the marginal ones. I'm not a trophy killer yet but it's what I'm working for. Our family farm isn't that great and there is a lot of rifle hunting pressure in the area. But a few of the bucks I've passed have been showing up on my cameras the next year so I'm sticking to the plan.


Oh, I see. So, you're saying that your standards changed over time, and that at one point you would have been happy with a certain kind of deer, and over time your views on that changed. 

Maybe you should remember that the next time you decide to tell others how to hunt, or refer to them as selfish.


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## buckchaser86 (Jun 10, 2009)

Shoot whatever floats your boat, as long as it's legal.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I've taken a few 2.5 year olds that looked like mature bucks in the heat of the moment but suffered from severe ground shrinkage by the time I found them.


So, did you disgust yourself? 



123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks.


You're staring at irony every time you look in the mirror.


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## BuckeyeRed (Sep 7, 2006)

Washi said:


> It only bothers me if they complain about not seeing good bucks before or after they shoot the little one.


Bingo!


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

MOC said:


> Oh, I see. So, you're saying that your standards changed over time, and that at one point you would have been happy with a certain kind of deer, and over time your views on that changed.
> 
> Maybe you should remember that the next time you decide to tell others how to hunt, or refer to them as selfish.


Great post MOC!


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## popeye77 (Mar 16, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I want all of you non-trophy hunters to consider one thing. I'm going to explain why trophy hunters are so disgusted by people killing button bucks, spikes, forks, and all other young bucks. It's a very simple concept. *Every time you shoot one, it makes our hunting worse.* Not because the total number of deer is lower, but because the potential of shooting that deer when it is mature is eliminated. How can you expect us to stand by and keep our mouths shut when you intentionally decrease our chances of accomplishing our goal? None of us who work our butts off, show restraint on the young bucks, and dream about killing a mature buck in any way decrease the quality of your hunting. We only help it. It's not people who practice QDM or otherwise manage for mature bucks who are hard on the deer numbers. I think most people who study their deer herd and manage it enyoy seeing healthy specimens at a population near the carrying capacity of the food source and habitat. It's not us trophy hunters that are bad for deer populations. It's the brown and downers that don't care enough about the population to help manage it. It's the out dated old school deer management policies that game and fish departments use to set their bag limits. Of course we are going to complain when we see the quality of the deer herd decrease because someone doesn't care enough to look through their binoculars at a deer's head before they shoot it. Why would I be happy for someone or congratulate them because they did something I don't agree with? As soon as you non-trophy hunters realize that your actions affect more than yourself, and start killing mature does instead of immature bucks, we will start to be happy for you when you legally harvest an antlerless deer.



I had a selfish friend like you.......once. Not any longer.


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## WesternMAHunter (Sep 2, 2005)

you shoot what you like... i shoot what i like... who care... as long as shooter is happy...


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## popeye77 (Mar 16, 2009)

SilentHntr. said:


> I know three of my buddies live there............have been friends with them through some bad stuff and would back them in a second, but they brag alot to about their deer hunting ground.
> 
> Bring your butt up here where the snow will crust to your backside and our feed fields are in excess of 500 acres of corn, beans or alfalfa................then tell me how you will be hammering mature bucks. Heard that b.s. before and it comes with the pointy little boots you guys wear......with your pants tucked in to keep the b.s. from getting down you leg.
> 
> ...



Please don't group all Texans together, only a few are like hornporn. Most of us don't have his luxuries.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

MOC said:


> So, did you disgust yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> You're staring at irony every time you look in the mirror.


Yea man I was honestly a little disappointed and I kind of wished I would have passed them up. They would've been bigger the next year and I coulda held on to my tag and kept hunting for the buck I wanted. How is it ironic that I started small and I am trying to work my way up? It's more rewarding to me than just settling for a dinky one every year. Everybody has to start somewhere.


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## buckmark23 (Jul 1, 2006)

Shoot what you want as long as it's legal. Trophy hunters have a different mentality but that doesn't mean they are right. Plenty people could care less about antlers. I understand that if a person is complaining that they never see a big buck and they are killing button's and spikes every year, how that will make some people mad. At the end of the day, shooting a big buck doesn't make you a better hunter than a person that shoots a doe. I know several guys that were walking to the stand and had a big buck walk by them and shot it. That's not that hard to do.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> How is it ironic that I started small and I am trying to work my way up?



Is this a real question? It's ironic not because you've decided to raise your own standards, but because you don't see that everyone is different. You've decided that since you've raised your own standards that everyone else should also, and that they're huring your hunting (your words) when they kill bucks similar to what YOU YOURSELF HAVE KILLED. Get it now?


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

I am so glad that the people that hunt near me dont shoot any and everything that they see! If a kid or newbie shoots a bb or spike or small buck excellent. It people who shoot multiple deer a season, give the meat away because they themselves dont want it or have enough. They just want to kill ****! I go fishing and catch fluke, do I bring it home to give to the neighbors and others that expect me to fillet it for them? Hell No! Some people just love shooting the heck out of them.... I have never even shot a doe in 220 yrs of hunting. It's a lot of work, I go because I enjoy it and I wait for something descent. If I dont get one for the whole season so be it! So yes I hate! And I dont get it... Especially when people complain they dont see any deer. I sincerely feel bad for people in NJ who have no choice but to hunt WMA and state lands. That must blow


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

MOC said:


> Is this a real question? It's ironic not because you've decided to raise your own standards, but because you don't see that everyone is different. You've decided that since you've raised your own standards that everyone else should also, and that they're huring your hunting (your words) when they kill bucks similar to what YOU YOURSELF HAVE KILLED. Get it now?


Yea I get it. I think it's great when hunters who are just starting out get their first bow kill, regardless of the size or sex. And it's awesome when young kids take a few easy ones from their dad's blind. Regardless what they kill they should be proud of their accomplishment. And any time an up and coming bowhunter checks another goal off of his list I am happy for him. But I will never understand why experienced hunters refuse to work for a more challenging hunt. I guess if you're happy with mediocrity then go out to your hunting land and shoot a fork horn.


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## MrShake (Apr 20, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea I get it. I think it's great when hunters who are just starting out get their first bow kill, regardless of the size or sex. And it's awesome when young kids take a few easy ones from their dad's blind. Regardless what they kill they should be proud of their accomplishment. And any time an up and coming bowhunter checks another goal off of his list I am happy for him. But I will never understand why experienced hunters refuse to work for a more challenging hunt. I guess if you're happy with mediocrity then go out to your hunting land and shoot a fork horn.


So, your saying that a full freezer is mediocre?


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## Standbanger (Jun 15, 2010)

Killin tomorrows trophies today well now


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

There are people who have jobs and are happy and there are people who start businesses and hire people to work for them. If your happy with a JOB "just over broke" then fine. But if your wanting more and are willing to work hard, put your time in and luck out something better might await you or maybe not. Not everyone will have good oppurtunity's at bagging a stellar job or 12 pt buck. But are you always going to be the bank teller or do you want to oneday become the bank mangager. If you want the meat shoot a few does, but veteran deer hunters should let the lil ones with potential grow! There is Shoprite, Wegmans and Pathmarks for food... Dont give me the bs that you need the meat to feed your familiy. Hunting at least in NJ is NOT a cheap sport!


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

popeye77 said:


> Please don't group all Texans together, only a few are like hornporn. Most of us don't have his luxuries.




Oh I don't, just my buddies come here and read my posts...............and we always go at each other like that, 25 years of being in the Army together does that. Most folks are everyday Joe's and hunt what they have available..........have more respect for them, then those who get their panties in a bind over some deer hunting...........I hunt many game animals, but do it on public ground. See, I have better things to spend all my money on vs. deer leases or deer hunting land.......hunting is just that hunting and a hobby......nothing more.

Texans are not all bad, but boy oh boy everything is bigger in Texas and sometimes that includes some folks mouth.:wink:


Top


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## MrShake (Apr 20, 2009)

Make It Happen said:


> There are people who have jobs and are happy and there are people who start businesses and hire people to work for them. If your happy with a JOB "just over broke" then fine. But if your wanting more and are willing to work hard, put your time in and luck out something better might await you or maybe not. Not everyone will have good oppurtunity's at bagging a stellar job or 12 pt buck. But are you always going to be the bank teller or do you want to oneday become the bank mangager. If you want the meat shoot a few does, but veteran deer hunters should let the lil ones with potential grow! There is Shoprite, Wegmans and Pathmarks for food... Dont give me the bs that you need the meat to feed your familiy. Hunting at least in NJ is NOT a cheap sport!


So, your saying that hunting for meat and not for trophies equals a dead end job? I'm suddenly less of a person because I don't care about the antlers?
Your priorities are different than mine, yet you think I'm wrong. I can not get venison at Shoprite, Wegmans, or Pathmarks (not that any of those exist in central illinois), so I choose to hunt to put venison in my freezer.... I do NOT choose to hunt to put antlers on my wall.


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

Shoot a few deer thats fine... just not 15 of them like some people I know!


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## SquirrelKing (Apr 24, 2009)

I shot my first deer this year and it was a spike horn. I been seeing deer during archery season and had missed a big buck two days earlier with my bow. It was low light but I had a great view at about 25 yards. Took the shot and hit a branch sticking up from some deadfall, the only branch between the deer and I. Heard a big thwack sound and the deer jumped and spun around and took off. I thought I hit him, looked for deer, arrow or blood. Nothing. Next morning I found arrow it was clean. I was disappointed but still happy to have got a shot off. 

Opening day got the rifle and got a spikehorn. Had the tenderloins that night, delicious! 

So I am pretty happy with my first deer and still have until dec 11 to tag a trophy in expanded archery. BTW, my idea of a trophy would be 4 points or more with my PSE while still hunting.:teeth:

One more thing two deer is alot of meat but my brother has been away and missed out on hunting so I figure he could use some venison.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea I get it. I think it's great when hunters who are just starting out get their first bow kill, regardless of the size or sex. And it's awesome when young kids take a few easy ones from their dad's blind. Regardless what they kill they should be proud of their accomplishment. And any time an up and coming bowhunter checks another goal off of his list I am happy for him. But I will never understand why experienced hunters refuse to work for a more challenging hunt. I guess if you're happy with mediocrity then go out to your hunting land and shoot a fork horn.


And this is where you begin to let your own ego get in the way. You've decided not only what is best for yourself, but you've also seen fit to decide what's best for every other hunter in the woods. Once again, you're failing to realize a very basic concept: EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, and they HUNT FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. 

What's challenging to some may not be challenging for others. Some folks have challenges like trying to raise a family, a couple jobs, and balance hunting time all at once. They may not get the days afield that they'd like, so they take whatever deer they can, not knowing when they might be able to get back out there. That challenging enough for you? 

Other folks still simply enjoy hunting and eating venison, and while they might like a nice buck, they're plenty happy with just taking a deer for the freezer, even if it's antlers don't quite meet some guy's standards from the internet. This OK with you? 

Are you starting to get he picture that you cannot simply project your own ideals on others and expect all to be right with the world? Do you think that folks who shoot bucks smaller than you deem fit have never killed deer bigger than you? 

The sooner you're able to piece this all together, the better off you'll be. This applies both on and off the hunting field. One size does not fit all.


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## hunt1up (Sep 4, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea I get it. I think it's great when hunters who are just starting out get their first bow kill, regardless of the size or sex. And it's awesome when young kids take a few easy ones from their dad's blind. Regardless what they kill they should be proud of their accomplishment. And any time an up and coming bowhunter checks another goal off of his list I am happy for him. But I will never understand why experienced hunters refuse to work for a more challenging hunt. I guess if you're happy with mediocrity then go out to your hunting land and shoot a fork horn.


Dude...seriously.

I am for the mostpart a trophy hunter. I shoot does, but I pass alot of bucks waiting for good ones. Yeah, I used to get pissed when friends who have hunted for years whacked little deer. Then I grew up. 

I have my standards and spend 100's of hours looking for mature bucks, but some people don't have that time or goals of you or I. You'd rather everyone live in some hunting police state where you are the sheriff. Guess what dude, in America, having freedom means you must respect another's freedom, even if you don't agree with it.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

Make It Happen said:


> I have never even shot a doe in 220 yrs of hunting.


Wow you ARE hardcore. And what do does even have to do with this? Why wouldn't you shoot a doe?


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

This is wasting my trophy hunting time... Good luck guys! Try and leave some deer for other hunters and the future generations


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

Vampire


RugerRedhawk said:


> Wow you ARE hardcore. And what do does even have to do with this? Why wouldn't you shoot a doe?


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## K&K (Aug 10, 2010)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea I get it. I think it's great when hunters who are just starting out get their first bow kill, regardless of the size or sex. And it's awesome when young kids take a few easy ones from their dad's blind. Regardless what they kill they should be proud of their accomplishment. And any time an up and coming bowhunter checks another goal off of his list I am happy for him. But I will never understand why experienced hunters refuse to work for a more challenging hunt. I guess if you're happy with mediocrity then go out to your hunting land and shoot a fork horn.


Well you seem to enjoy archery so are you going to go try to win an I.B.O word title or are you happy with being a mediocre archer


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

MrShake said:


> So, your saying that a full freezer is mediocre?


I'm saying it's not necessary to fill it with button bucks and spikes.


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## barhunter75 (Dec 14, 2008)

drkangel11683 said:


> No, but I'm feeling a strong dislike towards you right now.


My thoughts exactly


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

SilentHntr. said:


> Oh I don't, just my buddies come here and read my posts...............and we always go at each other like that, 25 years of being in the Army together does that. Most folks are everyday Joe's and hunt what they have available..........have more respect for them, then those who get their panties in a bind over some deer hunting...........I hunt many game animals, but do it on public ground. See, I have better things to spend all my money on vs. deer leases or deer hunting land.......hunting is just that hunting and a hobby......nothing more.
> 
> Texans are not all bad, but boy oh boy everything is bigger in Texas and sometimes that includes some folks mouth.:wink:
> 
> ...


hhhmmm, where you been hiding these days??? :cheers:


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea I get it. I think it's great when hunters who are just starting out get their first bow kill, regardless of the size or sex. And it's awesome when young kids *take a few easy ones *from their dad's blind. Regardless what they kill they should be proud of their accomplishment. And any time an up and coming bowhunter checks another goal off of his list I am happy for him. But I will never understand why experienced hunters refuse to work for a more challenging hunt. I guess if you're happy with mediocrity then go out to your hunting land and shoot a fork horn.


what do you mean by "easy ones" when hunting?

i mean, the stand you placed on a trail up a tree somewhere, all the deer are going to do is walk down or by it, that's why you chose it, doesn't matter if they are young or mature, they still travel that route, some togehter other times seperate or small groups, how hard is that?

guess i really don't get what you mean by a younger immature deer being easier than a mature deer, especially if they have the same trail to walk to their feed area or bed...


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## dmgiss (Mar 18, 2010)

15 pages of this arguement??? Are you kidding me??? Some people have WAY too much time on their hands. Who cares what people shoot??!!?!?!?! I am all for QDM, but everyone has to mature in their deer harvesting. At one time I was on cloud nine for killing scrubs and spikes, but I have enlarged my vision and I let them walk now, but everyone hasn't been able to harvest many deer and be able to let the little ones walk yet. If they are on your property or your hunting club, then ,make your own rules, but leave everyone else alone to make their own choices as to what is a trophy in their eyes. Happy hunting to all button buck and spike shooters everywhere.


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I'm saying it's not necessary to fill it with button bucks and spikes.


And any respectable hunter realizes that it's not a bad thing to fill it with deer. Shoot what you want you nimwit.


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## MrShake (Apr 20, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I'm saying it's not necessary to fill it with button bucks and spikes.


So, let me in on the secret you seem to posses that enables me to fill my freezer with does.... I've seen 2 does total since October 1st, missed the one that was close enough.

So, I shoot whats in front of me, because they all fill the freezer.


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## double o (Jul 12, 2008)

dmgiss said:


> 15 pages of this arguement??? Are you kidding me??? Some people have WAY too much time on their hands. Who cares what people shoot??!!?!?!?! I am all for QDM, but everyone has to mature in their deer harvesting. At one time I was on cloud nine for killing scrubs and spikes, but I have enlarged my vision and I let them walk now, but everyone hasn't been able to harvest many deer and be able to let the little ones walk yet. If they are on your property or your hunting club, then ,make your own rules, but leave everyone else alone to make their own choices as to what is a trophy in their eyes. Happy hunting to all button buck and spike shooters everywhere.


Couldn't agree more but am guilty of killing yearlings.


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## mattheww1377 (Apr 8, 2010)

I am 100% a trophy hunter.... Every legal deer i take is a trophy... I am the one who will pass a buck for a doe most every time. I feed my family meat and not antlers. If some one needs the meat and it is a spike then draw breath and release.. thats what i do.. I have been hunting for 21 years with a bow, have a few on the wall (they hold my hats just fine) but still get weak in the knees when i see something brown (if it don't have spots )on my land. I know someone will have something to say about killing does and small bucks, (spikes included) so i will think about what you say tonight while i am eating the doe i shot at 35 yrds through my kitchen bay window while fixing coffee sun. morn.(bet she taste the same after i think about your comments)


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## RugerRedhawk (Oct 15, 2008)

MrShake said:


> So, let me in on the secret you seem to posses that enables me to fill my freezer with does.... I've seen 2 does total since October 1st, missed the one that was close enough.
> 
> So, I shoot whats in front of me, because they all fill the freezer.


Agreed. Some of us can't hunt 40 hours a week (as much as we might wish we could)


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## AmishArcher (Feb 6, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> Kinda funny because I've literally passed up 3 or 4 3.5 year old bucks this year that just didn't do it for me:noidea:.....now that fawn doe that weighed 30 lbs last week....not sure why, but she got me excited! And she was WELL worth it! I personally am quite willing to pass up most bucks, however, a fawn, due to the quality of meat....is my weakness! I am fine with everyone else hunting and passing up whatever they want. I do take offense when someone else tried to tell me what they think I should do though....in order to make their hunt easier:doh:. Sometimes antlers get me excited....I do enjoy putting one on the wall once in a while, however, I have quite a few deer on the wall under 125" that I am more proud of than my deer that go over that......the experience is much more important to me than antler size. My favorite buck mount barely makes 100" but has a very unique double white throat patch. Many people that have seen him in person have said it's the most beautiful deer they've ever seen. I'll take that any day over a P&Y scoring buck.



stop with the blasphemy... You and I will fight! :lol: how ya doin, kory?


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

AmishArcher said:


> stop with the blasphemy... You and I will fight! :lol: how ya doin, kory?


Amish don't fight, you just make mantles! :chortle:


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I'm saying it's not necessary to fill it with button bucks and spikes.


We can buy a possession tag for $1 for road-killed deer for the freezer. I have taken does, fawns, button bucks...whatever. Why? Why let them go to waste? If I get a chance again, and it's a big buck I'll call you so you can come cut off the antlers.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

hunt1up said:


> Dude...seriously.
> 
> I am for the mostpart a trophy hunter. I shoot does, but I pass alot of bucks waiting for good ones. Yeah, *I used to get pissed when friends who have hunted for years whacked little deer.* Then I grew up.
> 
> I have my standards and spend 100's of hours looking for mature bucks, but some people don't have that time or goals of you or I. You'd rather everyone live in some hunting police state where you are the sheriff. Guess what dude, in America, having freedom means you must respect another's freedom, even if you don't agree with it.


Sorry if I come off as a trophy buck hunting nazi. I would never tell any of my true hunting buddys that they should have passed on a small buck or they shouldn't have taken a button buck. I'm happy for them if they are happy. I might not completely understand why they did it, but I would never belittle them because of it. Likewise I would never make anyone with a small buck on their tailgate feel bad about it, whether it is at a local check station or on the internet. I promise, you will never see a negative post from me on a thread that someone started to show off their trophy. But when I'm communicating with people I don't know in a setting like this I tend to let my hair down a little. I do think hunting should be all about having fun and people should be allowed to kill what they want. But I will not always be able to understand why someone can repeatedly get the same thrill out of killing the same immature buck year after year. If all the brown and downers don't care about what I think, then why do they keep arguing with me about it? This is just a forum on a website and some people act like we are debating laws across party lines in the senate. There isn't much that someone can say on here that will really affect my thinking, unless it is something very profound and packed with knowledge.


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

can you answer my post please, just trying to understand a bit.

thanks. 

a big mouth texan

hi silent! :chortle:


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## hunt1up (Sep 4, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Sorry if I come off as a trophy buck hunting nazi. I would never tell any of my true hunting buddys that they should have passed on a small buck or they shouldn't have taken a button buck. I'm happy for them if they are happy. I might not completely understand why they did it, but I would never belittle them because of it. Likewise I would never make anyone with a small buck on their tailgate feel bad about it, whether it is at a local check station or on the internet. I promise, you will never see a negative post from me on a thread that someone started to show off their trophy. But when I'm communicating with people I don't know in a setting like this I tend to let my hair down a little. I do think hunting should be all about having fun and people should be allowed to kill what they want. But I will not always be able to understand why someone can repeatedly get the same thrill out of killing the same immature buck year after year. If all the brown and downers don't care about what I think, then why do they keep arguing with me about it? This is just a forum on a website and some people act like we are debating laws across party lines in the senate. There isn't much that someone can say on here that will really affect my thinking, unless it is something very profound and packed with knowledge.


That's good to hear.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

obsessedLSS said:


> what do you mean by "easy ones" when hunting?
> 
> i mean, the stand you placed on a trail up a tree somewhere, all the deer are going to do is walk down or by it, that's why you chose it, doesn't matter if they are young or mature, they still travel that route, some togehter other times seperate or small groups, how hard is that?
> 
> *guess i really don't get what you mean by a younger immature deer being easier than a mature deer*, especially if they have the same trail to walk to their feed area or bed...


Seriously?


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Seriously?


yes, seriously....

are you spot and stalking these "harder" deer you hunt or are you up a tree waiting on a trail, to me, it's really not that hard to sit up there on that trail and wait for animals to pass by, only thing that might be "hard" is passing the first buck waiting on the 2nd.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Marcus, I am happy for any hunter when he/she shoots a deer that makes them happy.:darkbeer:

That said, in my limited south Texas whitetail hunting experiences, you guys have it pretty much like everywhere else in the country............it is many times easier to shoot a 1.5, or even 2.5 year old buck than it is a mature buck.

They do NOT all walk the same trials from feeding to bedding, nor do they typically travel from one to the other during the same timeframe.

They are two completely different animals.......:smile:


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Marcus, I am happy for any hunter when he/she shoots a deer that makes them happy.:darkbeer:
> 
> That said, in my limited south Texas whitetail hunting experiences, you guys have it pretty much like everywhere else in the country............it is many times easier to shoot a 1.5, or even 2.5 year old buck than it is a mature buck.
> 
> ...


Mitch, on one hand i want to agree with you, on the other, part of me says no...it all depends on the land you are hunting down here, which you know can be really fun in the thick stuff or on long senderos...

i was trying to understand his logic of what he posted, several times in this thread he's mentioned "easy deer" because they are young, i guess i just don't see it that way because down here, especially on a sendero, you never know what's going to walk out, it could be that 1.5 spike or a 6.5 year old monster at any given time. 

to me and the point i was trying to get to, was that unless you are spot and stalking these deer, it's really not hard to sit up in a tree or a box blind overlooking a sendero and wait on a trail, most of the time something is going to walk by, the hardest part is going to be pass or shoot.

and you know me personaly and you know i'm just happy to see someone get a deer, ANY deer.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> If all the brown and downers don't care about what I think, then why do they keep arguing with me about it? This is just a forum on a website and some people act like we are debating laws across party lines in the senate. There isn't much that someone can say on here that will really affect my thinking, unless it is something very profound and packed with knowledge.


The reason they/ we are arguing with you is because your position is dead wrong even from those of us who are mature trophy buck hunters . Like I have always said hunt your hunt but leave the harsh opinions and statements about others alone the reason you do not undersatand whay they kill what they kill is simply because you are not in thier head and do not hunt the woods they do.


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

what size is your members only jacket? me


Shouldernuke! said:


> The reason they/ we are arguing with you is because your position is dead wrong even from those of us who are mature trophy buck hunters . Like I have always said hunt your hunt but leave the harsh opinions and statements about others alone the reason you do not undersatand whay they kill what they kill is simply because you are not in thier head and do not hunt the woods they do.


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

that was for the post above... Those of you who kill everything you see are lame! Ruining it for others including future hunters and just suck. Just because its from Subway doesnt mean its healthy. Lets say your state has unlimited does like NJ do you think its not going to effect the deer heard if you shoot one every time you go? You take 4-5 let me correct myself 10 does out of certain areas and its pretty much ruined. In NJ they dont care that you get an oppurtunity to shoot a deer they just want them all dead. I wish everywhere in NJ was 3 or better on one side like some of the areas in our state. ohh i shot a small buck because I practice QDM on my 30 acres of land. Pleaseeee


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## archer0421 (Feb 17, 2008)

Legal is legal. Don't push your opinion or belief on everyone else. That is the problem in today world.


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

lets all try to push our religions on each other! or we can debate music and television! oh but i know what some people will say, if they dont like it its wrong or its just stupid right??? reminds me of a word i use loosely here called selfishness!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Make It Happen said:


> that was for the post above... Those of you who kill everything you see are lame! Ruining it for others including future hunters and just suck. Just because its from Subway doesnt mean its healthy. Lets say your state has unlimited does like NJ do you think its not going to effect the deer heard if you shoot one every time you go? You take 4-5 let me correct myself 10 does out of certain areas and its pretty much ruined. In NJ they dont care that you get an oppurtunity to shoot a deer they just want them all dead. I wish everywhere in NJ was 3 or better on one side like some of the areas in our state. ohh i shot a small buck because I practice QDM on my 30 acres of land. Pleaseeee


Are you high??? Or just struggling to become a better buck hunter?? I would guess that even if every hunter around you passed up every buck of every age you see you would still be suffering the inability to take trophy sized deer its just easier to blame others and want states to legislate you a big buck isn't it . Get better ,buy your own or more hunting land and stop blameing others for your own personal shortcomings. And at this rate you will never get that jacket!


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

AmishArcher said:


> stop with the blasphemy... You and I will fight! :lol: how ya doin, kory?


Your not gonna fling horse manure at me are ya???:noidea:

I am pretty good now....last week was rough though!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

.... still going, and going, and going .......


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## muzzy90 (Feb 15, 2003)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Dude are you for real??? who are you to judge what a trophy is? Are you shooting 140,150 + animal my money says you dont. The goal for my state and most states is to try to reduce the heard because of shrinking habitat, and try and get the buck to doe ratio in balance. your talking about spikes and button bucks, but i dont see you talking about letting the year 1/2 and 2 1/2 year bucks walk, im a betting man and i would bet you shoot them. so let me ask you what the hell is the difference in shooting a spike or a year 1/2 old THERE IS NONE SO DONT EVEN TRY. The main REASON some states dont have quality or mature bucks is because they dont make it past a year and a half, AND THATS A FACT.. Before you post some BS again get your facts right


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

dude I live in Nj you buy me the land you country bumpkin or mr wealthy... If you read above I hunt private land already... I just feel bad for others in NJ deer hunters on public land that dont see ****. Me I am good to go land / acres wise. Check this website www.newjerseyhunter.com and read about the people who dont see crap for deer. NJ is not easy unless your lucky to have a descent place to hunt. Some people go 20 years without killing a deer. How I dont know... they trully must suck or never go hunting


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Make It Happen said:


> that was for the post above... Those of you who kill everything you see are lame! Ruining it for others including future hunters and just suck. Just because its from Subway doesnt mean its healthy. Lets say your state has unlimited does like NJ do you think its not going to effect the deer heard if you shoot one every time you go? You take 4-5 let me correct myself 10 does out of certain areas and its pretty much ruined. In NJ they dont care that you get an oppurtunity to shoot a deer they just want them all dead. I wish everywhere in NJ was 3 or better on one side like some of the areas in our state. ohh i shot a small buck because I practice QDM on my 30 acres of land. Pleaseeee


You my friend are a real piece of work.

Another Guy or Girl who grew up watching Realtree's Monster Bucks on TV and thinks its real life. Get a grip dude.


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## muzzy90 (Feb 15, 2003)

Come on man thats the same in any state hunting on public land with a high number of hunters.. I have private land to hunt, but i also hunt public land, and have seen and taken some really nice bucks off that public land. I live in MD not that far from you


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## DimeTimeTom (Aug 20, 2008)

anyone else "hate" this thread?

plain and simple...stupid...for argueing over this

personally i make it a point to shoot a 1.5 to 2.5 year old deer, better eating....and thats why we do this right?


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

I am willing to listen to what you have to say.... so make it make sense pleaseeee
My Take: Shoot a lot of does and it reduces the deer heard - less deer = less deer to hunt
My Take: Shoot small bucks and they dont get a chance to grow old = not so old not so big
So there you go... how can you beat simple logic? Please explain


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

DimeTimeTom said:


> anyone else "hate" this thread?


Not me, I actually like to see a thread where many different folks are chiming in!!! Beats the heck out of a Rage bash thread!!! LOL!!!


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## muzzy90 (Feb 15, 2003)

Ok , let me try it this way, its called OVER POPULATION. is that easy enough. I dont care what state you live in or how many hunters are in that state, you will not kill enough deer in the few months we have to hunt to put a dent in the population. And let me add each state has a fish and wildlife agency that have people that are called wildlife biologist, that get paid to keep the numbers of animal herds with check in info etc..


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

Thats great... Your easily brainwashed.... my State NJ makes a boat load of money on permit this, buck tag that, zone this, every single piece of woods is different and wildlife biologists can not monitor every piece of land. They are not on my land, they dont know exactly whats going on. They can assume... They can generalize... What if your next door neighbor is a farmer and can shoot all the deer they want? Your property butts up to this farmer, maybe another small pieces of woods neighboring. That farmer shooting a bunch of deer is not going to effect you? Give me a break! You can justify it all you want! Shooting deer = Less deer 20-1 = 19 100-30=70 Simple math people


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

muzzy90 said:


> Ok , let me try it this way, its called OVER POPULATION. is that easy enough. I dont care what state you live in or how many hunters are in that state, you will not kill enough deer in the few months we have to hunt to put a dent in the population. And let me add each state has a fish and wildlife agency that have people that are called wildlife biologist, that get paid to keep the numbers of animal herds with check in info etc..


I beg to differ!!! Look at many Midwest states like Illinois...... look at the state deerp pop and then the overall deer kill, that my friend is indeed a DENT in the population!!! 

As to you comment about trusting the state to completely manage your animals..... again look at many states where their deer herds are controlled more by political climates and the farm bureau than by biologists suggestions ?!?


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Make It Happen said:


> Thats great... Your easily brainwashed.... my State NJ makes a boat load of money on permit this, buck tag that, zone this, every single piece of woods is different and wildlife biologists can not monitor every piece of land. They are not on my land, they dont know exactly whats going on. They can assume... They can generalize... What if your next door neighbor is a farmer and can shoot all the deer they want? Your property butts up to this farmer, maybe another small pieces of woods neighboring. That farmer shooting a bunch of deer is not going to effect you? Give me a break! You can justify it all you want! Shooting deer = Less deer 20-1 = 19 100-30=70 Simple math people


Here is what I suggest you do to help your deer herd in NJ....... Quit hunting. 1 less hunter = more deer. Simple math, right?


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

Your not being fair I am not being a jerk just staing my opinion which happens to make some sense. You dont want me to quit hunting buddy ol'pal


poorman said:


> Here is what I suggest you do to help your deer herd in NJ....... Quit hunting. 1 less hunter = more deer. Simple math, right?


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

my ass is itching from all the time I spend in my treestand trophy hunting maybe I should shoot more deer. Give my hemroids a chance to subside possibly vs. sitting all the time for hours humm got me thinking


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## drenalinhunter1 (Feb 6, 2009)

30 pages by christmas?


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Make It Happen said:


> Your not being fair I am not being a jerk just staing my opinion which happens to make some sense. You dont want me to quit hunting buddy ol'pal


It s not your opinion that is the problem. Its the way you are saying it. And you are correct, I dont want you to quit hunting. I was just trying to point out how your post looked.


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## muzzy90 (Feb 15, 2003)

LOL man you are trying hard i will give you that.. For starters all states make money on that the hunting industry in general makes what millions or billions a year and every state gets a chunk. There is a calculation that is used to estimate the numbers of all wildlife. Do they have the numbers down to every last deer etc no, but they have enough data to know how to regulate a hunting season. As far as farmers shooting deer they have to prove crop damage, then they have to have crop damage permits, and they are given a certain amount, They are allowed to shoot a certain number of deer under those permits, and i will add that most of those deer are for does only and shot during the summer when the crops are being grown. So lets move on. lets say you have 50 does on a given property out of those 50 lets say you shoot 10 that leaves 40. So lets say out of the 40 does left 10 have fawns and lets say 5 of those 10 have more then 1 fawn. your right back to your 50 not to mention the added deer by the ones that had more than one fawn.........HMMMMMMM SIMPLE MATH. If shooting deer weather it be under crop damage or hunting was hurting the heard, then what you can shoot and how many would be regulated. Now there may be states that have less deer population in a certain county or region, and in a situation like that im sure the numbers are regulated.. What else ya got


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## undercover (Jul 2, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> I beg to differ!!! Look at many Midwest states like Illinois...... look at the state deerp pop and then the overall deer kill, that my friend is indeed a DENT in the population!!!
> 
> As to you comment about trusting the state to completely manage your animals..... again look at many states where their deer herds are controlled more by political climates and the farm bureau than by biologists suggestions ?!?


I agree with you but don't leave out the insurance companies!!!!! They probably carry a bigger stick then all the above mentioned.

And never trust a government agency to manage anything or to do things in our best interest.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Make It Happen said:


> my ass is itching from all the time I spend in my treestand trophy hunting maybe I should shoot more deer. Give my hemroids a chance to subside possibly vs. sitting all the time for hours humm got me thinking


:lol:


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Make It Happen said:


> my ass is itching from all the time I spend in my treestand trophy hunting maybe I should shoot more deer. Give my hemroids a chance to subside possibly vs. sitting all the time for hours humm got me thinking


When you decide to be a deer killer and quit trying to manage what in your case is unmanageable you will be happier and better off you do not own thousands of acers of land nor do you have any control over any other hunter .So you control your trigger finger and you have to make only you happy .So stop complaining and drop the string on a buck you only get one trip through life and if you do not shoot you do not get to have any deer meat or any feeling of being part of something larger than yourself and own wants!


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

And what if I was doing the same about your post?


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

undercover said:


> I agree with you but don't leave out the insurance companies!!!!! They probably carry a bigger stick then all the above mentioned.
> 
> And never trust a government agency to manage anything or to do things in our best interest.


Insurance companies do not lose a dime on deer.
Areas are rated by risk and rates set accordingly - more collosions = higher rates and same profit.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

drenalinhunter1 said:


> 30 pages by christmas?


50 if it dont get locked


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## muzzy90 (Feb 15, 2003)

undercover, can you be a bit more specific when it comes to your deer heard, are you talking about overall buck kills or overall kill in general. I know you guys have some monsters out there and i also know that your state and the boarding states get pounded with out of state hunters. So with that said i can see your view on your states numbers. But given the quality of bucks you have there ( i have never hunted there but would love too lol) I would be thinking your buck population is low


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

On another note i would be kind of pissed if my state was creamed with out of state hunters! Do they set the # of available tags fairly in these big buck states?


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Shouldernuke! said:


> 50 if it dont get locked


No reason for a lock yet. We might just make the 50.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Make It Happen said:


> On another note i would be kind of pissed if my state was creamed with out of state hunters! Do they set the # of available tags fairly in these big buck states?


Ours are over the counter as many who wants one can get one!


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## 170p&ywhitail (Aug 29, 2009)

Hate? No. If its my wifes, childs, friends, or family members first deer ever then its fine. But after that Id like to see them let them walk and if they want just meat for the freezer I encourage that they take a doe. But I'm not the law and they can do as they please.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

170p&ywhitail said:


> Hate? No. If its my wifes, childs, friends, or family members first deer ever then its fine. But after that Id like to see them let them walk and if they want just meat for the freezer I encourage that they take a doe. But I'm not the law and they can do as they please.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Can you tell how many points this buck scored? Or..is it even a buck?

Anybody who can let this go by without taking it, shouldn't even be a deer hunter IMHO...


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## Will K (Aug 16, 2005)

No issue with it whatsoever. In these parts a good hunter is psyched with 1 - 2 shot ops all year long. Not expecting 1-2 opportunities, but happy to have 1-2 opportunities. If someone wants to put healthy meat on the table and have a great experience, then good for them. No issue at all with shooting a spike or button.

I'd rather people did not shoot does in these parts or at least did so more judiciously than not shooting a spike or button.

Between coyotes, bears, bobcats, winter, cars, hunters... it feels like we are staying pretty stable population wise... and that's a bad thing for hunter recruitment. I know that's a different discussion, but I worry about my potential kids or friends kids not being able to really get into hunting, becuase they rarely see deer. Hopefully "we" can teach kids to love hunting for the hunting and not killing or seeing of deer... but man, it sure helps keep new hunters excited and interested when they feel like they will at least see their quarry on occasion. Just seems like different locations have different needs. if you live some place where you see lots of deer - big or not - be psyched, because it's an honor and privilege!


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## flyboy9994 (Sep 27, 2010)

Here's my contribution to this thread... enjoy "Spike Shooter Haters"...


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## weave (Oct 17, 2002)

I am a deer hunter first and foremost. My state and my landowners want to see a reduction in the deer herd. They do not care if it is a buck, doe, fawn, or even a button/spike. To them they are all deer.

For my family, it is about meat.....deer meat. I take what I can take until the freezer has meat, then I will focus on looking for something for the wall.

However, I will also take some deer and donate them to the hunters to the hungry program. Those starving people also do not care what it was.

My 2-cents


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## cjtaylor0103 (Oct 22, 2008)

It just depends on your views of success in the sport that you love.

Most of the posters in this thread fail to recognize the other side's points or acknowledge that they are legitmate.

On the land that I hunt, we don't kill it unless it's outside the ears and 8 points. Why do we do this? Becuase not only do we enjoy the meat, but we enjoy watching the animal grow up over the years. Most everyone in this thread would agree that if they had the option of puting meat in the freezer via a spike verus a 160+" 5 1/2 year old deer, they would pick the latter. To deny that simply makes your a liar.

If you come on my land and kill spikes you will be asked to leave. We have manicured our population so that you have plenty of large deer to shoot. Am I wrong in wanting to control an aspect of my hunting in order to render the highest level of gratification? It's my sport, my life and my enjoyment. Just as you have the right to defend shooting any deer that walks by so do we have the right to not do this.

Everyone in here needs to take a breather and acknowledge the oppositions view points. Failure to do so will result in another 17 pages of crying, internet badassing and incompetent mouth breathing comments where Tommy Twotoes shows us his spike kill picture as a slap in the face rather than a proud trophy (which is what Tommy Twotoes is arguing in the first place).

Step outside the F'ing box for a second.


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## me.hunter (Mar 6, 2005)

Stanley said:


> I see nothing wrong with a young girl hunter taking a button or a spike.


Just call me Sally. Sally(Mel)


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

cjtaylor0103 said:


> It just depends on your views of success in the sport that you love.
> 
> Most of the posters in this thread fail to recognize the other side's points or acknowledge that they are legitmate.
> 
> ...


Actually I'd bet that 98% would certainly prefer the meat of the spike over the 5 1/2 yr old! However, I do think that the vast majority would think it a good trade off to sacrifice meat quality for what may perhaps be their trophy rack of a lifetime. I sure wouldn't call anyone a liar that said otherwise. I've been telling my buddies for a month that if I got my chance at the piebald squirrel I was after and it was standing next to a 150" buck....I'd for sure take the squirrel...and I meant it! Reason being, in 25 years of hunting I've never seen a piebald squirrel other than this one, and every year I see several 150" bucks. Although the 150" would make a nice trophy, I do not expect it to be a once in a lifetime trophy.

Now regarding meat, you have a good quality vs quanitity argument. Do you take the quality meat of a 1.5 yr old, or do you go with quantity and sacrifice quality by taking the 5.5 year old. Try and answer disregarding the rack. I'd bet most would take the tender 1.5 yr old.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

cjtaylor0103 said:


> It just depends on your views of success in the sport that you love.
> 
> Most of the posters in this thread fail to recognize the other side's points or acknowledge that they are legitmate.
> 
> ...


I thought that was a stupid tactic too. Sorry for being a mouth breather. I can't help it, it happens when I get excited.


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## cjtaylor0103 (Oct 22, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> Actually I'd bet that 98% would certainly prefer the meat of the spike over the 5 1/2 yr old! However, I do think that the vast majority would think it a good trade off to sacrifice meat quality for what may perhaps be their trophy rack of a lifetime. I sure wouldn't call anyone a liar that said otherwise. I've been telling my buddies for a month that if I got my chance at the piebald squirrel I was after and it was standing next to a 150" buck....I'd for sure take the squirrel...and I meant it! Reason being, in 25 years of hunting I've never seen a piebald squirrel other than this one, and every year I see several 150" bucks. Although the 150" would make a nice trophy, I do not expect it to be a once in a lifetime trophy.
> 
> Now regarding meat, you have a good quality vs quanitity argument. Do you take the quality meat of a 1.5 yr old, or do you go with quantity and sacrifice quality by taking the 5.5 year old. Try and answer disregarding the rack. I'd bet most would take the tender 1.5 yr old.


I may be a little biased in quality of meat becuase 100% of mine goes through a grinder with the only exception being Tenderloins. I fancy the snacky type foods that require the deer to be ground up.

Despite quality of meat offered by a young deer, it still remains true that nobody here has the right to dictate worth or ethics where it pertains to derivation of enjoyment and gratification. That lies solely in the hunter and the hunter alone.


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## SuperSS27 (Dec 20, 2009)

I hate people who shoot the does that could potentially have the fawn that could turn into the new world record buck!:crazy:

I hate people who kill deer with their cars because I could have killed the deer and they wasted it.

I hate wolves, coyotes, bears, and whatever other animals kill deer to feed themselves.

I hate mother nature for blizzards, harsh winters, drought, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes and diseases for killing deer.

But what I really really hate, are hunters who feel the need to criticize another hunters choice on what deer they want to shoot.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

obsessedLSS said:


> what do you mean by "easy ones" when hunting?
> 
> i mean, the stand you placed on a trail up a tree somewhere, all the deer are going to do is walk down or by it, that's why you chose it, doesn't matter if they are young or mature, they still travel that route, some togehter other times seperate or small groups, how hard is that?
> 
> *guess i really don't get what you mean by a younger immature deer being easier than a mature deer*, especially if they have the same trail to walk to their feed area or bed...





Skeptic said:


> Actually I'd bet that 98% would certainly prefer the meat of the spike over the 5 1/2 yr old! However, I do think that the vast majority would think it a good trade off to sacrifice meat quality for what may perhaps be their trophy rack of a lifetime. I sure wouldn't call anyone a liar that said otherwise. I've been telling my buddies for a month that if I got my chance at the piebald squirrel I was after and it was standing next to a 150" buck....I'd for sure take the squirrel...and I meant it! Reason being, in 25 years of hunting I've never seen a piebald squirrel other than this one, and every year I see several 150" bucks. Although the 150" would make a nice trophy, I do not expect it to be a once in a lifetime trophy.
> 
> Now regarding meat, you have a good quality vs quanitity argument. Do you take the quality meat of a 1.5 yr old, or do you go with quantity and sacrifice quality by taking the 5.5 year old. Try and answer disregarding the rack. I'd bet most would take the tender 1.5 yr old.


I agree that the meat from the 1.5 yr old buck would be better tasting to me. I've only taken one fawn and it seemed like I went through the same amount of time and effort cutting it up as I would a big doe or mature buck, and when I was finished I had about half as much venison. So I decided not to kill any more fawns. I would also say that it is much more rewarding to kill a wiley old nocturnal 5.5 year old ghost buck, regardless of his antler size. But that obsessedLSS guy shot that down because apparently they are just as easy to kill as a young deer. Who knew? :dontknow:


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## cjtaylor0103 (Oct 22, 2008)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I thought that was a stupid tactic too. Sorry for being a mouth breather. I can't help it, it happens when I get excited.


I actually mouth breath too. Nose trauma blaying ball.

In this case, however, it's referring to an individual that speaks out of rebellion with an logic-lacking post and abbrassive delivery.


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I agree that the meat from the 1.5 yr old buck would be better tasting to me. I've only taken one fawn and it seemed like I went through the same amount of time and effort cutting it up as I would a big doe or mature buck, and when I was finished I had about half as much venison. So I decided not to kill any more fawns. I would also say that it is much more rewarding to kill a wiley old nocturnal 5.5 year old ghost buck, regardless of his antler size. *But that obsessedLSS guy shot that down because apparently they are just as easy to kill as a young deer. Who knew?* :dontknow:


like i said in my post to mitch, it's a little different down here, if you hunt in a area that has good potential and is big enough, you are going to see some really nice deer, you just never know when...i hunt in South Texas, the lease is 500 acres which the King Ranch borders on 3 sides...on opening day a 200" buck was killed less then a mile from my uncle's lease down there, many other big deer have been seen through out the season so far according to some of the other landowners, not to mention we should have a great year because we got our rain just in time this year....another example is some of the other states like Ohio or IL, where big deer are usually known to live and hunt if you have the hunting rights or permission.

that's what i was basing it on, but if you want to be a smartazz about it when i was asking for you to explain what is "easy to you" then by all means, have at it...was actually trying to get an honest answer out of you without all the bashing and word spewing.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I agree that the meat from the 1.5 yr old buck would be better tasting to me. I've only taken one fawn and it seemed like I went through the same amount of time and effort cutting it up as I would a big doe or mature buck, and when I was finished I had about half as much venison. So I decided not to kill any more fawns. I would also say that it is much more rewarding to kill a wiley old nocturnal 5.5 year old ghost buck, regardless of his antler size. But that obsessedLSS guy shot that down because apparently they are just as easy to kill as a young deer. Who knew? :dontknow:


Ever done any small game hunting? Clean a few squirrels and you'll appreciate the amount of meat you get on a fawn.:wink: I can literally clean and debone a fawn almost as quick as I can clean a frikken squirrel LOL.


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## SuperSS27 (Dec 20, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I agree that the meat from the 1.5 yr old buck would be better tasting to me. I've only taken one fawn and it seemed like I went through the same amount of time and effort cutting it up as I would a big doe or mature buck, and when I was finished I had about half as much venison. So I decided not to kill any more fawns. *I would also say that it is much more rewarding to kill a wiley old nocturnal 5.5 year old ghost buck,* regardless of his antler size. But that obsessedLSS guy shot that down because apparently they are just as easy to kill as a young deer. Who knew? :dontknow:


That's your opinion. Try not to let it stink the place up anymore than it already has.


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## chewie146 (Nov 17, 2010)

I've never had a problem with spikes and button bucks, as long as it's legal. I've never understood trophy hunters, personally. Most of the elk hunting I do is for cow elk. The meat is what I'm after. I shot a very nice 5x5 elk when I was about 14. It was fun! It also was like chewing on a boot. 2 years later, I shot a yearling. That was also fun, and it was edible.


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## bigscott (Apr 13, 2008)

regardless of how one feels about how big deer should or shouldn't be before you shoot them we now live in a world where our youth are watching so many different hunting shows ..

most of your hunting shows have the hunters taking tremendous animals !! the future of hunting and keeping hunting alive is watching those shows .. yes the first couple of deer be it a doe , spike , 4 point ,etc are exciting and gets the blood flowing and you cant wait for that wall hanger to show up ... well after sitting in the stand season after season and seeing nothing but spikes , little 4 points ,etc etc they will lose interest and your hunting core will erode .. we dont live forever and tomorrows hunters are the future and hopes to keep the tradition of hunting alive

the hunting shows parade these massive bucks across the screen and the young hunters dream of a buck like that walking out in front of them .. they are not dreaming of spike horns , little 4 pointers etc etc and when reality hits and thats all they see in the woods it will get discouraging quickly start to hunt less and less till they hunt no more .

you can get on here and say i am going to kill anything and everything that is your right and it is !! but facts are we have paraded these images through hunting shows and magazines that tomorrows hunters see on a daily basis and they will expect more then small bucks LIKE IT OR NOT .. 

just my 2 cents


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## bigscott (Apr 13, 2008)

chewie146 said:


> I've never had a problem with spikes and button bucks, as long as it's legal. I've never understood trophy hunters, personally. Most of the elk hunting I do is for cow elk. The meat is what I'm after. I shot a very nice 5x5 elk when I was about 14. It was fun! It also was like chewing on a boot. 2 years later, I shot a yearling. That was also fun, and it was edible.


expecting something bigger then a spike doesn't make one a trophy hunter


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## SilentHntr. (Jan 20, 2004)

obsessedLSS said:


> can you answer my post please, just trying to understand a bit.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> ...



I am hiding on the boarder of Minnesota and South Dakota, loving my hunting time.............did you watch the OU-Texas game?

I plan on going back to Texas next spring to visit my buddies and hunt some Rio's.........kind of busy helping out a few deer hunters right now. I was raised in the Red River Valley area.........but now I am hanging out up north, these folks are different.

I love hunting, kill many deer, but have no problem with how others hunt legally, but do disagree with the QDM bunch.......many of them are just blow hards with little man syndrome. Most I met have no respect for other hunters, only themselves and that I can not stand. 

Top


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

SilentHntr. said:


> I am hiding on the boarder of Minnesota and South Dakota, loving my hunting time.............did you watch the OU-Texas game?
> 
> I plan on going back to Texas next spring to visit my buddies and hunt some Rio's.........kind of busy helping out a few deer hunters right now. I was raised in the Red River Valley area.........but now I am hanging out up north, these folks are different.
> 
> ...


amen!

no, i don't watch UT, i'm a Aggie fan, which we are doing pretty dang good this year for a change! :chortle: 

where about's you gonna chase them rio's, lemme know! :cheers:


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## 1156 (Nov 4, 2010)

I have two points on thsi subject. First I farm 2300 acres and belive me I feed a lot of deer, therfore I don't feel i have to be picky to put some meat in my freezer, lol... Also, we had bovine tb come through this area 5 years ago, since then the DNR has eliminated 60% of the population via unregulated bag limits and sharp shooting. I understand they are doing this to lower the chances of deer to deer transmission. Therefore if we ever want a target population back to the carrying capacity of the habitat we need to let every doe live. With that being said I would much rather shoot a spike before a doe "here". Our does usually produce about 1.6 fawns per female. If all we did was shoot does and let all bucks go till they were "trophy" animals we wouldn't repopulate the area. I would rather loose an oportunity at a "trophy" buck then loose an opportunity to reestablish the deer herd.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

I have a question for the spike and button buck shooters. i understand your point of view. but i have to wonder. 

If you saw lots of bucks, would you still shoot spikes and button bucks? 


I have eaten alot of deer, fawns included. there isnt that much difference between a 2.5 and a 1.5 year old buck. now i do agree a 5 year old buck isnt as tender as a fawn. i cant say i would be mad if i sat down to the dinner table to eat some deer steak and while im chewing i am looking at the 160 it came off of on the wall and wish i was eating a fawn.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

1156 said:


> I have two points on thsi subject. First I farm 2300 acres and belive me I feed a lot of deer, therfore I don't feel i have to be picky to put some meat in my freezer, lol... Also, we had bovine tb come through this area 5 years ago, since then the DNR has eliminated 60% of the population via unregulated bag limits and sharp shooting. I understand they are doing this to lower the chances of deer to deer transmission. Therefore if we ever want a target population back to the carrying capacity of the habitat we need to let every doe live. With that being said I would much rather shoot a spike before a doe "here". Our does usually produce about 1.6 fawns per female. If all we did was shoot does and let all bucks go till they were "trophy" animals we wouldn't repopulate the area. I would rather loose an oportunity at a "trophy" buck then loose an opportunity to reestablish the deer herd.


Good post. Deer management is situational and in this situation you seem to have the right strategy. The population around our farm was depleted by blue tongue about 8 years ago. It was tough hunting after that and we didn't kill any antlerless deer for quite a few years. Now I see a minimum of 15 and up to 40 deer per sit. We are planning to slay a few slickheads this winter to help get the ratio in check. Good luck.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

rivershark said:


> I have a question for the spike and button buck shooters. i understand your point of view. but i have to wonder.
> 
> If you saw lots of bucks, would you still shoot spikes and button bucks?
> 
> ...


I see quite a few high scoring bucks every year.....I really just am not that into HORNS for myself. How do you compare a FAWN/.5 yr old and a 2.5 yr old buck? Fawn is hands down best meat out there IMO!


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

bigscott said:


> regardless of how one feels about how big deer should or shouldn't be before you shoot them we now live in a world where our youth are watching so many different hunting shows ..
> 
> most of your hunting shows have the hunters taking tremendous animals !! the future of hunting and keeping hunting alive is watching those shows .. yes the first couple of deer be it a doe , spike , 4 point ,etc are exciting and gets the blood flowing and you cant wait for that wall hanger to show up ... well after sitting in the stand season after season and seeing nothing but spikes , little 4 points ,etc etc they will lose interest and your hunting core will erode .. we dont live forever and tomorrows hunters are the future and hopes to keep the tradition of hunting alive
> 
> ...


Admit it or not...fact is that from the beginning of mankind, even when hunting was to survive, man did not dream of spikes or small bucks. Even cave paintings show deer with overly large and exaggerated antlers. Today's hunting tv is an easy scapegoat (on this subject plus plenty others) but big antlers have fascinated us way before tv came along and in modern times as well way before the onslaught of hunting networks.


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## squid77 (Aug 12, 2009)

I personally don't shoot small bucks<120", however I am lucky enough to hunt an area that has great potential and has been proven to yield some very nice bucks. However if there were only small ones in the area and not many does, I would take what I could get....


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Admit it or not...fact is that from the beginning of mankind, even when hunting was to survive, man did not dream of spikes or small bucks.


Pretty impressive leap of logic, even for this board, unless of course your 50,000 years old or have a time machine in your back yard. Makes you wonder how some armchair anthropologists are going to interpret inner city grafitti in about 100,000 years.


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## chewie146 (Nov 17, 2010)

bigscott said:


> expecting something bigger then a spike doesn't make one a trophy hunter


I'm not saying it does. What I am saying is bigger antlers don't make a successful hunt.


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## rden (Feb 29, 2008)

Not only do I hate people who shoot spikes and button bucks, I hate people that shoot does that might produce large bucks. 

Totally messing around. I shoot the first legal deer that walks and then I can be more selective. I hunt for meat- I seriously see more bucks than does so yes, a small buck gets harvested if that is the first shot presented.


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## TAOTENPOINTW (Sep 17, 2002)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.



I saw only one deer during bow season and it was a spike. I wish I shot that deer. My bow season is over in NY. But if i had a choice, I would take a big doe before a small buck. 
Shoot what makes you happy. Just be legal.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

squid77 said:


> I personally don't shoot small bucks<120", however I am lucky enough to hunt an area that has great potential and has been proven to yield some very nice bucks. However if there were only small ones in the area and not many does, I would take what I could get....


we kinda go more by age structure than score on our land. hopefully we will be passing more 120" bucks more and more in the future. there are some 125" bucks now i would deffenently shoot, but i know how old they are and are good deer to us. 

But we started by letting does walk, then spikes, then 6pts, then small 8's then passing 110-115" bucks, n now we are able to pass a few 120" bucks a year. it just takes time in a area. we are now starting to see the benifits from 5 years ago. slowly but surely. those 140-150-160" deer are starting to pop up time to time on camera. a few even killed. 

we shoot does, but we dont go overboard. doe numbers are pretty decent. however i do remember shooting spikes many years ago and was proud. but its changed around us, and we changed with it. i have to say that looking for horns is just as fun as if its brown its down. i think its more fun, because now we get more history and photos etc.


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## Q!! (May 3, 2005)

Wow, some of you are very Holy. I'm going to start heading east every year and I'm going to shoot every button buck or spike that I can. I'll start a thread to show off my accomplishments. Baby deer backstrack = good dinner.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Q!! said:


> Wow, some of you are very Holy. I'm going to start heading east every year and I'm going to shoot every button buck or spike that I can. I'll start a thread to show off my accomplishments. Baby deer backstrack = good dinner.


Ha ha, you would.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Admit it or not...fact is that from the beginning of mankind, even when hunting was to survive, man did not dream of spikes or small bucks. Even cave paintings show deer with overly large and exaggerated antlers. Today's hunting tv is an easy scapegoat (on this subject plus plenty others) but big antlers have fascinated us way before tv came along and in modern times as well way before the onslaught of hunting networks.


Being that they didn't have AT...do you think the guys sat around at night looking at the cave paintings accusing Og of photoshopping?


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## dt5150 (Oct 17, 2007)

i'd LOVE to see and shoot a spike right now. i haven't seen a buck here at home all season.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Being that they didn't have AT...do you think the guys sat around at night looking at the cave paintings accusing Og of photoshopping?


Well the cave painting also used to show huge 2 and 3 foot male fallac drawings as well and I am sure Og was not hung like a whale either so I would guess that the ancients were no less lier's than modern man LOL


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Well the cave painting also used to show huge 2 and 3 foot male fallac drawings as well and I am sure Og was not hung like a whale either so I would guess that the ancients were no less lier's than modern man LOL


Maybe that's what they accused him of photoshopping.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

Q!! said:


> Wow, some of you are very Holy. I'm going to start heading east every year and I'm going to shoot every button buck or spike that I can. I'll start a thread to show off my accomplishments. Baby deer backstrack = good dinner.


if you can letem grow, why not do so? still got backsstracks in the freezer.


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## Q!! (May 3, 2005)

rivershark said:


> if you can letem grow, why not do so? still got backsstracks in the freezer.



That's not how I roll brother. I am the of the Brown and Down tribe.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

rivershark said:


> if you can letem grow, why not do so? still got backsstracks in the freezer.


I think the part many like you are missing like many are shark is average hunters do not care if you like what they kill and really do not care weather or not you get the deer you want that is all part of it the challenge.


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## hunting NH (Jun 4, 2007)

Don't hate me for what I shoot, I'm not blessed with low hunting pressure, thousands of acres, and thousand of acres of crops! I eat deer, no matter what it has for headgear.


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## OneScrewLoose (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't like people that try to push on others what they think is an acceptable animal to shoot. Shoot what makes you happy and don't waste what you kill.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

hey, if its where its hard to get one. i dont knock you guys for shooting them. i shot them here when it was hard. i remember hunting all season and only seing one or two bucks a year. i was just saying if you had the place to let them go, wouldnt you? esp if you could still kill


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

i think a conversation with my son pretty much sums it up heres how our converstion went. I was on archery talk looking at pics people posted and he says the following
Him: who shot that buck daddy?
Me: i dont know peyton its a guy on the internet site i go too.
Him: that deers antlers are small.
Me: but buddy some guys shoot a small antlered deer if they can.
Him: why would you kill a little deer with small antlers?
Me: I dont know why, i guess some people like to take deer that have small antlers to eat.
Him: ooh does he not make alot of money to buy food?
Me: no that probably isnt why, he just likes to eat deer.
Him: cant he just go buy deer at the store?
me: no you cant buy deer meat at the store buddy.
Him: why doesnt he try to kill a bigger deer?
me: maybe he doesnt hunt for bigger deer he just wants a deer.
Him: why wouldnt you hunt for big deer if your deer hunting.
me: im not sure maybe he doesnt have time to hunt for a big deer or there arent any big deer in the area he hunts.
Him: well duh, there wont be big deer if you kill them when they are that little.
me: some people dont think that makes a difference if you kill them when they are little.
Him: so they think they will get big like on bambi if you kill them when they are little.
me: im not sure they care if they get big like on bambi ?
him: why would you deer hunt if you didnt want to kill a big deer?
me: not sure? some people dont care if they kill a big deer.
him: thats weird why dont they care if they kill big deer.
me: some just want to eat deer.
him: i wouldnt kill a deer to only eat,
unless i didnt have money for food.
me: some just like to eat deer.
him: its ok to kill a little deer but why would you take a picture of it so people can see how little of a deer you shot?
me: he doesnt care about a deer you can hang on the wall.
him: so he goes hunting and doesnt wait for a big one?
Me: nope he shoots whatever he sees.
him: that doesnt sound fun dad, so we should have shot those little ones we saw last week?
me: would those little deer excite you if we killed them?
him: no but it was fun to see them.
me: your exactly right buddy, you dont have to kill a deer to have a fun day hunting.
him: yea and in a few years those deer will be big and then ill be really excited.
me: you got that right buddy.
him: i cant wait till im big enough to hunt for some big deer.
me: next year ill get you a crossbow and you can hunt with me
him: awesome i cant wait....hey dad
me: yea?
him: that guy who killed that little one doesnt hunt where you hunt does he daddy?
me: no buddy he lives in another state. why?
him: cause i dont want him killing all the deer when they are little because i wont be able to see them when i hunt next year...
i believe that pretty much sums it up guys. My 7 yr old understands that basics behind killing deer when they are small. I would think it would be easier for the rest of us to get it. he doesnt watch any deer hunting shows or talk about hunting with me at all till last night. he was wanting to look at lego videos on youtube when he saw this particular posters deer. The things that you kids pick up that we dont get.


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

roosclan said:


> Because some of us don't care about spending money to hang an animal's head on the wall. We're out for hunting for the original purpose -- food! When the choices are limited, you put what you can in the freezer to feed the family. You can enjoy your unfilled tag, marinated in red wine and seasoned with black pepper because you didn't see a monster buck. Go right ahead. Tell me how it tastes. I can tell you right now, that one little tag won't go very far feeding my six kids. The spike and bb that I shot last year taste much better and lasted a lot longer than that tag of yours, or the antlers you're so obsessed about.
> 
> I have about 5 days each year to hunt. I saw a total of 3 deer in those 5 days. Three! One was a large doe that I had a bead on, but was spooked by something behind it and took off before I had a clean shot:angry:. So, I shot the deer that spooked it. Happened to be a button buck. I would have preferred the large doe, but it wasn't to be. I thought it was just a small doe until after I shot it and found it.
> 
> ...




:mg: six kids!!!!! busy guy!!!!!:wink: chill out buddy my post was only my "food for thought" not condemnation.....shoot whatever the hell you want. Truthfully though an adult doe provides more meat than small or yearling bucks. Whatever you shoot is your choice, your tag, your money........good luck and safe hunting to you!!!!:cheers:


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

rnt is not saying you shouldnt kill them if you need them for food. Nobody on here is saying that in any way and you know this rooseclan. you got to do what you have to.


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## Shinsou (Aug 7, 2008)

Irony. Look it up.

:izza:


ghost1 said:


> Great grammer, Cornfed(name fits)


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> rnt is not saying you shouldnt kill them if you need them for food. Nobody on here is saying that in any way and you know this rooseclan. you got to do what you have to.


Exactly. When I read the OP I was interpeting it as a way to improve the quantity and quality of bucks, I didnt care for the attitude presented about hating the people so it is why I posted my post. I personally have taken -0- wall hangers, I have let two bucks that were "weak" 8 pointers walk and those are the only two deer above spikes that have walked under my stands in the past three years. In the past I shot anything to fill my tags, mostly antlerless tags as most areas I hunt the bucks are killed at an alarming rate and are few and far inbetween so I have also taken buttons and small does to fill tags. After years of doing so I have made up my own mind and made my own personal rules as to what I will take and why and I feel everyone else can do the same and would never put down anybodies kill, if they are happy with it then it is all good.

I know of a couple of guys that hunt deer in large numbers to provide for their families and I think it is a good thing. As long as their tags allow the animal its "all good". Take care flyin2jz and safe hunting to everyone.


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## awirtz26 (Feb 12, 2009)

i might just have to go shoot a spike buck just because of this thread


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

Make It Happen said:


> that was for the post above... Those of you who kill everything you see are lame! Ruining it for others including future hunters and just suck. Just because its from Subway doesnt mean its healthy. Lets say your state has unlimited does like NJ do you think its not going to effect the deer heard if you shoot one every time you go? You take 4-5 let me correct myself 10 does out of certain areas and its pretty much ruined. In NJ they dont care that you get an oppurtunity to shoot a deer they just want them all dead. I wish everywhere in NJ was 3 or better on one side like some of the areas in our state. ohh i shot a small buck because I practice QDM on my 30 acres of land. Pleaseeee


MIT I also live in NJ and you are dead wrong talk to anyone in the state and you'll find the reason they want us to kill so many deer is that the carry capacity for what little land they have would be over populated in no time. I have participated in community based deer hunts in Princeton where we had to take a doe first before a buck and had numerous decent bucks walk under me waiting for a chance at a antlerless deer. Even with taking as many antlerless deer as possible they still haven't been able to make a dent because the deer respond to the increased hunting pressure by going nocturnal and moving closer to the homes and areas closed to hunting. I also have several friends who are still involved in Princeton and other places and the deer bounce back every year without fail even though the hunters do their best to control the population. Yet this year a number of really good deer fell to people who didn't let the little ones walk and did their part to control the burgeoning deer herd and then got their trophy also.

Obviously you have not checked out the UBNJ website there are many areas that are open to hunting as long as your willing to help the state by taking an antlerless deer first, because no matter how hard the state tries they can't get enough people to shoot does to help control the deer herd, so they have to force people to do it. This year we even took over areas that companies like White Buffalo had which is awesome and opens up opportunities for bowhunters to hunt instead of a sniper with a rifle killing deer at night over bait and the town has to pay for it. As for those killing 4 and 5 deer many of these programs let you donate the deer to the homeless which is a PR homerun for hunters and what is better a deer donated to a shelter or one laying dead on the side of the road which no one can use?

Apparently the wildlife biologists should be consulting you since you seem to know better than them how to control the population based on what exactly? It's easy to say do as I say and the deer herd will magically become loaded with bruiser bucks hiding behind every tree but unless you have something to go on besides, "I think", perhaps you could explain your deer management plan in a little more detail. Also as you know living in NJ the state is broken into different zones with several different regulations based on that areas deer population they are trying to tailor the harvest to a specific area as much as possible. If we did as you said there would be certain portions of the state littered with dead deer and homeowners irate over the amount browse damage to their property and plants, not to mention the increase in accidents from deer car collisions. It's easy to play monday morning quarterback but talk with the people involved you'll find they are as committed as anyone to provide us with good hunting in NJ and if you are still not convinced get yourself appointed to the Game Commission and try and convince them your way is the right way.

As for other hunters who shoot the first deer they see who are you to tell someone when and what they can kill? You might think that by only shooting what you consider a trophy or mature deer is morally better or superior to someone else but you're only concerned with what makes you happy and feel good about yourself not what is actually best for the deer. As hunters we are supposed to be emulating predators and if you know anything about nature mature healthy animals are not the main target but older and younger animals. Now as I've said before show me the evidence that letting a spike or button walk means they will reach adulthood or trophy status. The mantra of those who don't shoot spikes or buttons is let them grow but no one in 18 pages has backed it up with any study from a reputable source like a university or wildlife department. If letting them walk is the holy grail of Whitetail management why hasn't someone sited a source or person who has done the field research to back it up and why aren't the agencies pushing this policy!

Instead of worrying about what other people kill perhaps you should be worried about your losing your hunting privileges altogether because every year our ranks get thinner and thinner and less people are buying licenses, which, means less people to protect our rights to hunt. I'm more concerned and worried about having a place to hunt, since, every year we lose land to developers and the encroachment of modern society! I can't tell you how my area has been developed over the last ten years and how many hunting spots are paved over and covered with concrete that once held deer and other game. You might think that other hunters are taking to many deer but in the end it will be those who don't hunt nor care if you do will that will be the ones responsible for the destruction of the deer and deer-hunting, not the fellow bowhunter hunting down the road.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

awirtz26 said:


> i might just have to go shoot a spike buck just because of this thread


From the looks of your posts you have never killed an animal with a bow as of april 2010 maybe you should shoot a spike. I havent seen any posts you have made about killing a single deer ever in your life...lol You have to get your feet wet before you can swim. Its all about the hunt for the big one for me. I have passed up countless small 6s and 8s this year all very close and one with my daughter. I really really hope that after i kill a large mature deer i will not worry about antler size at all. that would be great because it would dramatically lower my on stand time id need to kill a immature animal.


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## awirtz26 (Feb 12, 2009)

but the truth is i just shot a seven pointer with my bow on sunday and have passed up a nice buck this year


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

flyin2jz said:


> i think a conversation with my son pretty much sums it up heres how our converstion went. I was on archery talk looking at pics people posted and he says the following
> Him: who shot that buck daddy?
> Me: i dont know peyton its a guy on the internet site i go too.
> Him: that deers antlers are small.
> ...


*That is an AWESOME post !!! * I have 2 sons that have the same questions and opinions !!! They have asked me numerous times why grown men would want to shoot any/every deer they see. Once they even suggested we donate venison to those "people" if they really need deer that bad ?!? LOL! Ya gotta love the brutal pure honesty of children!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> i think a conversation with my son pretty much sums it up heres how our converstion went. I was on archery talk looking at pics people posted and he says the following
> Him: who shot that buck daddy?
> Me: i dont know peyton its a guy on the internet site i go too.
> Him: that deers antlers are small.
> ...


Its sad that you let the conversation take that turn it did instead of telling him deer hunting is about taking all sizes and ages of deer once again part of the problem with hunting not the cure. Children only mimic what they hear the parents or adults around them say I have never seen or heard a young kid question the killing of any deer and they would be happy to take any deer . Poisioning the mind starts at home every time:thumbs_do


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

i was really surprised with the things he was asking. He thought because i had a picture of him he hunted where we hunt...lol. I sure hope hes not hunting where we do. I about died laughing. You have to realize my son doesnt know anything about deer hunting at all. He wanted to see big deer after he saw the spike. He said a ton more stuff that i wont say because it would offend many who have posted on this thread. And hes 7


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Time for Bambi!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

RNT said:


> :mg: six kids!!!!! busy guy!!!!!:wink: chill out buddy my post was only my "food for thought" not condemnation.....shoot whatever the hell you want. Truthfully though an adult doe provides more meat than small or yearling bucks. Whatever you shoot is your choice, your tag, your money........good luck and safe hunting to you!!!!:cheers:


A 1.5 year old buck here will almost always out weigh any doe the Field dress between 145 and 165 # easily I know they weigh in bucks at our local check stations. Not a good argument on your point around this part of the Midwest at all.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I dont believe its poisoning his mind. I let the conversation go where he wanted it to go. He simply didnt understand and i tried my best to stand up for guys that kill small deer but he was having none of it. He just kept looking at me like i was crazy when i said some people dont care about antler size. I just cant say all the things he said, he would tick off alot of posters. Its good for him to understand its not just about killing it for the meat. Sometimes you can pass up a deer and still have a great hunt. I hardly think hes poisoned. Only wise beyond his years. Very proud of the little guy. He realizes that if you dont need it to survive let it get big and let others have fun chasing him. Id love to know where he learned it at. I know its not the private school he goes to...


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> I dont believe its poisoning his mind. I let the conversation go where he wanted it to go. He simply didnt understand and i tried my best to stand up for guys that kill small deer but he was having none of it. He just kept looking at me like i was crazy when i said some people dont care about antler size. I just cant say all the things he said, he would tick off alot of posters. Its good for him to understand its not just about killing it for the meat. Sometimes you can pass up a deer and still have a great hunt. I hardly think hes poisoned. Only wise beyond his years. Very proud of the little guy. He realizes that if you dont need it to survive let it get big and let others have fun chasing him. Id love to know where he learned it at. I know its not the private school he goes to...


Obviously from you and those you hunt with and its called juvenile mimicry its text book and its no so much wise beyond his years its just simple repetition of what he hears its very clinical my wife works at one of the top privet family psychiatric facilities in our area he has obviously been subject to way too many big buck shows in his young years and subject to some adult level conversations that you were not aware he was listening to. Kids have big ears and open minds that easily swayed.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

him: i cant wait till im big enough to hunt for some big deer.
me: next year ill get you a crossbow and you can hunt with me
him: awesome i cant wait....

Wait a minute...
Flyin2jz your HUNLEE's DAD!


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## roberts2 (Sep 15, 2010)

i love it! Shoot em up! I have ground in west central Il, have had all my life. 300 acres, i see alot of buttons and spikes every year, every year we shoot em and let em go. still every year alot of them. If you think every button and spike you see is going to be a monster they r not, and my family needs to eat.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

cjtaylor0103 said:


> Most everyone in this thread would agree that if they had the option of puting meat in the freezer via a spike verus a 160+" 5 1/2 year old deer, they would pick the latter. To deny that simply makes your a liar.


Ahh, you are misinformed. Veal is so expensive because it is so good...nothing more.

A young deer is infinitely better table fare than an older one, especially over 3 years old..5 being an almost elderly deer.

What you trophy guys just don't understand is that most of us just don't care about headgear...you just can't digest it because that's all you think about.

All I think about is digesting backstraps.

Stop watching TV hunting shows, and appreciate what nature has to offer without being an over competitive snob. JMHO.:zip:

Here's a story for you...:cocktail:

http://www.vealfacts.com/tag/why-is-veal-so-expensive/

The funny part is...the only people that are REALLY impressed by giant antlers hanging on a wall are non hunters..lol.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

spiker_01 said:


> Ahh, you are misinformed. Veal is so expensive because it is so good...nothing more.
> 
> A young deer is infinitely better table fare than an older one, especially over 3 years old..5 being an almost elderly deer.
> 
> ...


I am all for folks shooting what makes THEM happy, within the law of course. :smile:

That said, i have been personally and professionally involved in hunting for a long, long time, and although the majority of hunters are NOT trophy hunters, the VAST MAJORITY of hunters, if presented with an 18 month old doe and a 170" old buck at the same time.......will take the big set of antlers every time.

You want to burn your tag on a young buck? I am happy for you.:thumbs_up


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Its sad that you let the conversation take that turn it did instead of telling him deer hunting is about taking all sizes and ages of deer once again part of the problem with hunting not the cure. Children only mimic what they hear the parents or adults around them say I have never seen or heard a young kid question the killing of any deer and they would be happy to take any deer . Poisioning the mind starts at home every time:thumbs_do


My thoughts exactly!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Big Country said:


> I am all for folks shooting what makes THEM happy, within the law of course. :smile:
> 
> That said, i have been personally and professionally involved in hunting for a long, long time, and although the majority of hunters are NOT trophy hunters, the VAST MAJORITY of hunters, if presented with an 18 month old doe and a 170" old buck at the same time.......will take the big set of antlers every time.
> 
> You want to burn your tag on a young buck? I am happy for you.:thumbs_up


BC-If you are all for *"folks shooting what makes THEM happy", *why imply that they are "burning" their tag on a young deer? Why not just say use your tag on a young deer?


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

18 pages of hating!!!!

Sheese:argue:


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> BC-If you are all for *"folks shooting what makes THEM happy", *why imply that they are "burning" their tag on a young deer? Why not just say use your tag on a young deer?


I believe it is a unconscious condescension that we as mature buck hunters have to watch out for because its easy to let things like this out and it does not even hit home to us or them.


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

I will respond to one and only one part of your post which I read in full. And if you didnt hear or read they ran out of money with that deer for the hungry program. Because guys just dumped deer off and never contributed to the program. They killed the deer (multiple deer) dropped them off and never contributed to the butcher costs. Why because people are just looking for any excuse to shoot a deer. Ohh I did good I donated it... Yeah well you didnt do good http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/article88844.htm
Below just one post:
I think it's great that so much meat is going to the poor, but I have to ask, why are hunters harvesting so many deer that they dont need or want? If they are going out with the intention of donating meat to the poor, they should be willing to pay the $40 as well for butchering. Spare me the talk of hard work involved with the harvest. If you love deer hunting, you live for that part. Thats no charity. The charity is getting the food to the people who need it and if paying a fee to the butcher is part of it, then so be it. 

There you go... You want to shoot the deer and not anty up. 



Stykbow1 said:


> MIT I also live in NJ and you are dead wrong talk to anyone in the state and you'll find the reason they want us to kill so many deer is that the carry capacity for what little land they have would be over populated in no time. I have participated in community based deer hunts in Princeton where we had to take a doe first before a buck and had numerous decent bucks walk under me waiting for a chance at a antlerless deer. Even with taking as many antlerless deer as possible they still haven't been able to make a dent because the deer respond to the increased hunting pressure by going nocturnal and moving closer to the homes and areas closed to hunting. I also have several friends who are still involved in Princeton and other places and the deer bounce back every year without fail even though the hunters do their best to control the population. Yet this year a number of really good deer fell to people who didn't let the little ones walk and did their part to control the burgeoning deer herd and then got their trophy also.
> 
> Obviously you have not checked out the UBNJ website there are many areas that are open to hunting as long as your willing to help the state by taking an antlerless deer first, because no matter how hard the state tries they can't get enough people to shoot does to help control the deer herd, so they have to force people to do it. This year we even took over areas that companies like White Buffalo had which is awesome and opens up opportunities for bowhunters to hunt instead of a sniper with a rifle killing deer at night over bait and the town has to pay for it. As for those killing 4 and 5 deer many of these programs let you donate the deer to the homeless which is a PR homerun for hunters and what is better a deer donated to a shelter or one laying dead on the side of the road which no one can use?
> 
> ...


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Its sad that you let the conversation take that turn it did instead of telling him deer hunting is about taking all sizes and ages of deer once again part of the problem with hunting not the cure. Children only mimic what they hear the parents or adults around them say I have never seen or heard a young kid question the killing of any deer and they would be happy to take any deer . Poisioning the mind starts at home every time:thumbs_do


So you honestly believe i should have tried to sway him into thinking something else. Help me understand the direction i should have went. Maybe well son i think you should not worry about the deers antlers. You should kill the first deer you see and be happy with it. Or maybe you should kill a deer so you can eat him even if you really dont need the meat. Maybe why strive for killing a large mature animal when you can kill a little one instead.. all these reasons are why people fail in life. Do what you can in life but dont strive to be the best person you can or look to be as successful as possible. I believe you dont teach children that its ok to just do something. YOu should teach them to do their best in everything they do. If your stuck in a poe dunk town with no jobs and no future should you just tell you kids stay here. Id hope you would want them to strive for something more. If your goal is to kill spikes in life and not go for big bucks then have at it. Some of us hunters like more of a challenge and arent hunters so we can fill the freezer. The freezer full of deer is nice but doesnt need to happen for me to have a great hunt. I hunt for the fresh air and time to sit and think about all the things gods given me in my life and for those things im thankful...


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> So you honestly believe i should have tried to sway him into thinking something else. Help me understand the direction i should have went. Maybe well son i think you should not worry about the deers antlers. You should kill the first deer you see and be happy with it. Or maybe you should kill a deer so you can eat him even if you really dont need the meat. Maybe why strive for killing a large mature animal when you can kill a little one instead.. all these reasons are why people fail in life. Do what you can in life but dont strive to be the best person you can or look to be as successful as possible. I believe you dont teach children that its ok to just do something. YOu should teach them to do their best in everything they do. If your stuck in a poe dunk town with no jobs and no future should you just tell you kids stay here. Id hope you would want them to strive for something more. If your goal is to kill spikes in life and not go for big bucks then have at it. Some of us hunters like more of a challenge and arent hunters so we can fill the freezer. The freezer full of deer is nice but doesnt need to happen for me to have a great hunt. I hunt for the fresh air and time to sit and think about all the things gods given me in my life and for those things im thankful...


Maybe you should of just told your boy that hunters take all sizes of deer and that is what hunting is all about its not about how big the antlers are . That is how I brought up mine and they stuck with it and they matured as hunters at a natural un pushed pace . I have went though all the growing up years with two very successful young men that are tremendous hunters I told them that hunting was about meat to eat and antlers were to be considered a bonus.Its ok to start them off with the basics and tell them that hunting is not a competition and the reason we hunt is supposed to ultimately be about the hunt its self and the meat that comes from it. 

FYI my sons Were tremendous athletes that won many wrestling ,track and football championships they learned to win at games and life and they also learned that hunting was only competition with themselves and the deer that they hunt . My 19 year old is now making 50 grand a year he is an electronics wizard and in collage and my oldest is getting married on Jan 1 and is part of the Marine corps finest air wing in avionics. They both started out just killing any deer and you have seen the just a couple of the deer that they now kill in this thread earlier. Its OK to to be average in deer hunting to start out that is as honest as you could of been with your son. Teach them to excel in other aspects of their lives and it will transfer to all the things they do in life later and they will make the right choices mine are living proof of that.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

sounds like you raised some good boys shouldernuke. Tell the son in the marines thanks for his service and my prayers are with him. I tried in that conversation to say that he shouldnt worry about the racks of the deer. He just didnt get it. He asked me tons of questions which i didnt get into which really showed me that he is more of a conservationist than hunter. Now obviously im no treehugger considering im on at and trying to kill deer every single night after work, just not sure where he picked up the thoughts he has because he certainly didnt hear some of the things he said from me. Probably school i would assume. He doesnt think does should be killed either. He never heard that from me. He doesnt get why we kill animals that we dont need to eat to stay alive. He says and i quote thats "mean". He may feel different when we get out there with his own weapon. He was with me this year a couple times and we had a little 6 pointer in front of us and a doe later. He never said once just shoot it. He was so funny because while the deer where there he couldnt stop laughing and the deer didnt even spook and they were 15yds in front of us. was one of the best nights in the woods ive ever had. He now thinks deer should be walking around every time i hunt. When i come home and say i didnt see anything he doesnt get it...


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> sounds like you raised some good boys shouldernuke. Tell the son in the marines thanks for his service and my prayers are with him. I tried in that conversation to say that he shouldnt worry about the racks of the deer. He just didnt get it. He asked me tons of questions which i didnt get into which really showed me that he is more of a conservationist than hunter. Now obviously im no treehugger considering im on at and trying to kill deer every single night after work, just not sure where he picked up the thoughts he has because he certainly didnt hear some of the things he said from me. Probably school i would assume. He doesnt think does should be killed either. He never heard that from me. He doesnt get why we kill animals that we dont need to eat to stay alive. He says and i quote thats "mean". He may feel different when we get out there with his own weapon. He was with me this year a couple times and we had a little 6 pointer in front of us and a doe later. He never said once just shoot it. He was so funny because while the deer where there he couldnt stop laughing and the deer didnt even spook and they were 15yds in front of us. was one of the best nights in the woods ive ever had. He now thinks deer should be walking around every time i hunt. When i come home and say i didnt see anything he doesnt get it...


Many schools have a coservationist or anti agenda beware the teachers and parents of your kids friends there are many times mixed or anti messages sent to them trough these sources .Good luck with you son I hope he turns out to be every thing you wish for him . It is a long road making a young hunter its an easy road to make a young killer teach them something everyrtime you go to the woods and include them when you go hunting when they are ready you will get your time in the woods when they grow up its lonely in the woods when they leave but its wonderful when you get to share the woods with them again and size defiantly will not matter only the memories.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Big Country said:


> You want to burn your tag on a young buck? I am happy for you.:thumbs_up


Sounds a bit condescending..the whole "Burning" part.

How were you "professionally" involved in hunting?

To me, hunting is a lifestyle, not an occupation..but hey, to those of you that want to get "paid" to hunt..I'm happy for you.:thumbs_up


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

They weren't contributing because they didn't have too the towns and municipalities were footing the bill because it was a win - win situation for both parties involved the hunters helped control the deer population and the towns paid only to have the donated deer butchered. How many deer did you have butchered and donated???? They would have paid way more to have White Buffalo or another party come in and run a deer control program and then a great bowhunting opportunity goes down the tubes. So these bowhunters saved the towns a boat load of money and helped out some people who needed the meat for shelters and such where is the downside to that? Plus it helps keep the deer from destroying people's property such as: cars, plants, bushes, and trees. Have you been involved in any of these hunts or talked to any of the homeowners, animal control officers, or township officials? I have been involved and talked with many of these people and they are glad to have the hunters there to help control the deer. Not to mention all the work involved to open up these areas for bowhunting by people who aren't paid for their time. 

The real question which you haven't answered yet is where are your facts and findings that your fellow bowhunter is ruining the deer population in New Jersey by harvesting button bucks and spikes and why you have such animosity towards other bowhunters? You accuse other hunters of not anteing up but these hunters pay for their licenses, permits, gas, equipment, bait, and still donate the deer which ends up costing them money out of their pocket but at least they are trying, not pointing fingers and making unfounded accusations and doing a service that gives all hunters a good name. You may think they take too many deer and your entitled to your opinion but you still haven't explained what your plan, which, is apparently better than the NJDF&W's plan is. If you know of a better way perhaps you should let those in Trenton know you have the solution I'm sure they'd be glad to hear it.

I read the article that you posted in your thread yes they need money but if you find that to be a negative article you must be missing something because they said they could use more venison. _"*From what the food banks are telling us, there is never enough venison to feed the approximately 300,000 to 400,000 New Jersey citizens needing assistance."*_ I don't see anywhere in that article where HHH blames the guys donating the deer they are just asking for donations to process the deer. How do you know that some of the guys didn't pay the twenty dollars they are asking for because it doesn't say anywhere that people were refusing to donate. I for one believe that my fellow bowhunters in NJ would do what they could if they knew what the situation was when they dropped off the deer and I will forward this info to the UBNJ maybe they can find a way to help. 

I still don't see your point though about shooting deer what do you consider acceptable one, two, none? You'd rather see them dead on the road than in someone's freezer? Or is it you feel that bowhunters shouldn't kill any at all? Or would you rather that the deer were shot and killed at night over bait and then buried in a hole? Just remember that it's a slippery slope when you start telling other people what they should or shouldn't do, especially, when you yourself are amongst the ranks of those you wish to control and restrict. The next step might be someone telling you that _*your*_ not allowed to hunt at all either. Even though I disagree with you I wouldn't want you to lose your right to hunt anymore than I would mine and I respect *your* right to hunt as you wish as long as it's legal.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

One more thought for you "Trophy" guys. All your doing is eliminating the strongest, most dominant genes in the herd.

That said, I'm not passing on a 10 pointer, or a spike...just saying.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

spiker_01 said:


> Sounds a bit condescending..the whole "Burning" part.
> 
> How were you "professionally" involved in hunting?
> 
> To me, hunting is a lifestyle, not an occupation..but hey, to those of you that want to get "paid" to hunt..I'm happy for you.:thumbs_up


Not condescending at all. If that is the way you took it, that is on you.

How am I professionally involved in hunting? Is that a serious question?

Hunting is what YOU want it to be......for YOU. That is why I am happy for anybody that legally hunts the way they want to, and legally kills what they want to. :thumbs_up


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## Shinsou (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh, come on, BC. :doh:

:izza:


Big Country said:


> Not condescending at all. *If that is the way you took it, that is on you.*
> 
> How am I professionally involved in hunting? Is that a serious question?
> 
> Hunting is what YOU want it to be......for YOU. That is why I am happy for anybody that legally hunts the way they want to, and legally kills what they want to. :thumbs_up


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Big Country said:


> Not condescending at all. If that is the way you took it, that is on you.
> 
> How am I professionally involved in hunting? Is that a serious question?
> 
> Hunting is what YOU want it to be......for YOU. That is why I am happy for anybody that legally hunts the way they want to, and legally kills what they want to. :thumbs_up


I do not think he knows what you do professionally in hunting BC!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Shinsou said:


> Oh, come on, BC. :doh:
> 
> :izza:


:noidea: Do you want me to apologize for something I did not do? I have experience in that field.....I have been married for a long time.:wink:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I do not think he knows what you do professionally in hunting BC!


Nuke, I do not expect very many people on here to know everything I do in the hunting industry, but my signature line should be a hint to part of it. :wink:


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

spiker_01 said:


> One more thought for you "Trophy" guys. All your doing is eliminating the strongest, most dominant genes in the herd.
> 
> That said, I'm not passing on a 10 pointer, or a spike...just saying.



A 4 1/2 year old buck and up has already passed on their genes. One of his nubbin buck sons could be carrying the best genes ever but if he's whacked and stuck in the crock for one meal, we'll never know.

The size and age of a deer does not determine it's genetics. That's done at conception.


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## Shinsou (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't want or expect you to apologize, but you know better then I do how AT is with perception versus intent.

:izza:


Big Country said:


> :noidea: Do you want me to apologize for something I did not do? I have experience in that field.....I have been married for a long time.:wink:


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Nuke, I do not expect very many people on here to know everything I do in the hunting industry, but my signature line should be a hint to part of it. :wink:


BC can ya take me on a beach hunt in Australia? About 4 weeks would be nice


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Lol...who cares. It has nothing to do with this thread. But, hey, I am happy for you.

Oh, and sorry for not recognizing you...I apologize.

And, after all, I did say that I was happy for you, doesn't that make everything allright?


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

spiker_01 said:


> Lol...who cares. It has nothing to do with this thread. But, hey, I am happy for you.
> 
> Oh, and sorry for not recognizing you...I apologize.
> 
> And, after all, I did say that I was happy for you, doesn't that make everything allright?


WOW! One small misunderstanding on your part sure makes you salty, huh? :lol:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

mn5503 said:


> BC can ya take me on a beach hunt in Australia? About 4 weeks would be nice


Can`t help you there Steve, but if you want to do a couple of weeks in the northern territories, I can arrange that, and might even go with you. We can even split it up between there and NZ. :smile:


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Big Country said:


> WOW! One small misunderstanding on your part sure makes you salty, huh? :lol:


Happy as a clam...just jousting, no offense taken, and none meant..just having fun with it.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

spiker_01 said:


> Happy as a clam...just jousting, no offense taken, and none meant..just having fun with it.


:thumbs_up

Glad to hear that, because you were whipping me pretty handily. :smile:


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

I guees thats why there are only 30 plus responses with well over 600 views on that post. And some are repeats from the same poster. I guess hunters were real interested in helping the hungry. Last I heard donations are just that money out of your pocket. Blaming butchers for charging $40 and that they should do there part. They need to earn a living just like everyone else. Does it not cost them money to run their operation? Pay their bills, etc. I have no issue with killing a few deer but guys are shooting 10-15-20 plus deer. Give me a break... And the guys i shoot this 6 because i practice qdm and had to take him... I mean seriously fess up you wanted to shoot the deer, at least admit it. I am not talking about ubnj properties, I'm talking about wma and areas hit hard. How many nj posts state that they dont see crap and i shot the buck because if i didnt someone else would. I am done with this post... Besides I have to get back to butchering some deer for free to pay the bills because hunters paid for their equipment, permits, gas and tolls. I also blame the butcher shop or drop off place for not posting a sign asking for a dontation on deer left for the hunters helping the hungry program. If I was the butcher and a person cont. dropped off deer without dontating I would open my mouth and say something. Especially since I am making money off the program and would want to see it stick. Enjoy the rest of your season, I am very glade and yes fortunate that I hunt private areas. And we and the surrounding properties do the same for the most part. 



Stykbow1 said:


> They weren't contributing because they didn't have too the towns and municipalities were footing the bill because it was a win - win situation for both parties involved the hunters helped control the deer population and the towns paid only to have the donated deer butchered. How many deer did you have butchered and donated???? They would have paid way more to have White Buffalo or another party come in and run a deer control program and then a great bowhunting opportunity goes down the tubes. So these bowhunters saved the towns a boat load of money and helped out some people who needed the meat for shelters and such where is the downside to that? Plus it helps keep the deer from destroying people's property such as: cars, plants, bushes, and trees. Have you been involved in any of these hunts or talked to any of the homeowners, animal control officers, or township officials? I have been involved and talked with many of these people and they are glad to have the hunters there to help control the deer. Not to mention all the work involved to open up these areas for bowhunting by people who aren't paid for their time.
> 
> The real question which you haven't answered yet is where are your facts and findings that your fellow bowhunter is ruining the deer population in New Jersey by harvesting button bucks and spikes and why you have such animosity towards other bowhunters? You accuse other hunters of not anteing up but these hunters pay for their licenses, permits, gas, equipment, bait, and still donate the deer which ends up costing them money out of their pocket but at least they are trying, not pointing fingers and making unfounded accusations and doing a service that gives all hunters a good name. You may think they take too many deer and your entitled to your opinion but you still haven't explained what your plan, which, is apparently better than the NJDF&W's plan is. If you know of a better way perhaps you should let those in Trenton know you have the solution I'm sure they'd be glad to hear it.
> 
> ...


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## pse85 (Oct 8, 2010)

i cannot believe this thread has gone on for so long! i say sticky and save it so that everyone would think twice about telling others whats right or wrong with the way THEY hunt! if its legal, then dont worry about it!
Type less, hunt more!


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Big Country said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Glad to hear that, because you were whipping me pretty handily. :smile:


Can't help yourself, can you..lol


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

pse85 said:


> i cannot believe this thread has gone on for so long! i say sticky and save it so that everyone would think twice about telling others whats right or wrong with the way THEY hunt! if its legal, then dont worry about it!
> Type less, hunt more!


Yea you're right. Nobody is changing anybody's mind. Getting the meat hunters to start holding out for big bucks would be like getting a gay dude to like chicks. And likewise getting a trophy hunter to enjoy killing a spike would be like getting a straight guy to like dudes.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea you're right. Nobody is changing anybody's mind. Getting the meat hunters to start holding out for big bucks would be like getting a gay dude to like chicks. And likewise getting a trophy hunter to enjoy killing a spike would be like getting a straight guy to like dudes.


Funny how on AT many call themselves trophy hunters but many of them can not even throw together enough antler to make a good trophy wall.And how many who have walls full of large animals and just call themselves hunters. And the meat hunters are setting back chewing their jerky and eating their summer sausage reading this laughing wildly at all of this.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Big Country said:


> Can`t help you there Steve, but if you want to do a couple of weeks in the northern territories, I can arrange that, and might even go with you. We can even split it up between there and NZ. :smile:


Oh man, I bet we wouldn't have any fun!!!!!


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

shouldernuke! said:


> funny how on at many call themselves trophy hunters but many of them can not even throw together enough antler to make a good trophy wall.and how many who have walls full of large animals and just call themselves hunters. And the meat hunters are setting back chewing their jerky and eating their summer sausage reading this laughing wildly at all of this.


lmao....


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Funny how on AT many call themselves trophy hunters but many of them can not even throw together enough antler to make a good trophy wall.And how many who have walls full of large animals and just call themselves hunters. And the meat hunters are setting back chewing their jerky and eating their summer sausage reading this laughing wildly at all of this.


Good point. I'm more of a trophy "hunter" than a trophy "killer". But I do alright in the jerky and summer sausage department. Edit: It doesn't help that I missed 2 of the 4 largest bucks I've shot at. The first one was a booner. I killed my 123 4/8 buck about 15 minutes later.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Funny how on AT many call themselves trophy hunters but many of them can not even throw together enough antler to make a good trophy wall.And how many who have walls full of large animals and just call themselves hunters. And the meat hunters are setting back chewing their jerky and eating their summer sausage reading this laughing wildly at all of this.


Good point nuke, I'd like to see this guys "trophy wall", other than the 123 1/2 that his sig is based on...I need entertainment while I'm eating venison, and eggs.

As a meat hunter, I'm oblivious to scoring, so let me ask a question...Is 4/8 a real measurement?


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

mn5503 said:


> A 4 1/2 year old buck and up has already passed on their genes. One of his nubbin buck sons could be carrying the best genes ever but if he's whacked and stuck in the crock for one meal, we'll never know.
> 
> The size and age of a deer does not determine it's genetics. That's done at conception.


Off WIKIPEDIA:

*Antlers:* 
Male white-tailed deerMales re-grow their antlers every year. About 1 in 10,000 females also have antlers, although this is usually associated with hermaphroditism.[7] Bucks without branching antlers are often termed "spiked bucks". The spikes can be quite long or very short. Research in Texas has shown that the length and branching of antlers is genetic and can be influenced by diet. Healthy deer in some areas that are well fed can have eight-point branching antlers as yearlings (one and a half years old).[8] The number of points, the length or thickness of the antlers are a general indication of age but cannot be relied upon for positive aging. A better indication of age is the length of the snout and the color of the coat, with older deer tending to have longer snouts and grayer coats. Some say that deer that have spiked antlers should be culled from the population to produce larger branching antler genetics (antler size does not indicate overall health), and some bucks' antlers never will be wall trophies. Where antler growth nutritional needs are met (good mineral sources, i.e., calcium) and good genetics combine it can produce wall trophies in some of their range.[9] Spiked bucks are different from "button bucks" or "nubbin' bucks", that are male fawns and are generally about six to nine months of age during their first winter. They have skin covered nobs on their heads. They can have bony protrusions up to a half inch in length, but that is very rare, and they are not the same as spikes


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## 1156 (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Guys,

Please use the term conservationist in the correct sense. I have a background in "DNR" schooling and I can tell you one of the first things we learned was the difference between conservation, preservation and explotation! If you hunt chances are you are a conservationist, a conservationist is one who believes in the well bwing of the environment, that includes the animals, habitat, water quality, air quality etc.. Being a conservationist also believes in the wise use of our natural resources so that they are around for all to use now and in the future, including hunting, fishing, logging, mining, hydroelectric, farming, recreational sightseeing, snowmobiling, skiiing, biking, hiking, etc... Froma deerhunting perspective it means using hunting to control a population and keep that population in the carrying capacity of the habitiat, in layman terms it means keeping the deer in check with where they live. Have you seen what happens when deer are out of control? Farmer damage is just one thing that happens, then there are car accidents, deer eating flowers off your front steps, deer not affraid of humans, and fiannly disease! Let me tell you one thing mother nature always finds a way to control things if we like it or not! Being a preservationist you would to protect the environment from all uses. Great in thought, not good in reality.... Man has already screwed this up and due to that we have to reign in the halters a little bit. Some hunters are explotationist, those that are are out to use the environment for all it is worth. This could be either shooting more deer than they/the habitat cam handle. It can also mean "trophy" hunting is some aspects. Think of this, if you take a given deer population and only shoot all of the perfect bucks out of it what happens to the gene pool? I'm not saying that a person, if it is their interest to only shoot nice bucks, shouldn't, but if every one of us shot only the perfect bucks every year I think you'd be disapointed in you long term results. How does nature thin the herd, think nature discriminates? For the most part an explotationist is one who uses are natural resources beyond what the environment can support. These are the people/companies that use and use and never give back. So the next time we use the term conservationist lets use it in the right context. Anyone ever heard of "The Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold? If not I believe every hunter should read it before going out to the field! It was a book that was introduced to me before I started hunting. Thats funny because when I went for Natural Resources in college it was of the first books that we read. For those of you that do not recognize Aldo Leopold he is thought of as the forefather of modern day conservation by the natural resource community.

Basic DNR training 101, lol.....


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## ttank0789 (Apr 9, 2010)

I think this kinda sums it all up.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yea you're right. Nobody is changing anybody's mind. Getting the meat hunters to start holding out for big bucks would be like getting a gay dude to like chicks. And likewise getting a trophy hunter to enjoy killing a spike would be like getting a straight guy to like dudes.



Nice try. Please listen to me carefully this time. I dont want you to kill a spike if you dont want to. On the same token I dont want you to tell me I shouldnt. I want you to kill whatever makes you happy. I want to kill whatever makes me happy. Thats it. Easy as that. Really should be no argument or changing of minds at all. We are both hunters and in the end we both kill deer. I'm happy with what I kill, are you? If so then why are we even having this conversation?

Have a great thanksgiving and if you're so inclined......... go shoot a giant whitetail and post er up so I can congratulate you on your kill.


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## satchamo (May 6, 2006)

yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, NO its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i KNOW more people that would agree with him over disagree


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

satchamo said:


> yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, NO its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i KNOW more people that would agree with him over disagree


I agree with you completly.......
My son has never killed a deer with his bow, even in that situation I would not let him shoot a button.

marty


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## skinner66 (Jun 5, 2010)

satchamo said:


> yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, no its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i know more people that would agree with him over disagree


why would us idiots want to shoot a full grown doe that can have young one's with no prombles . Thats why i took a spike over a doe


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

satchamo said:


> yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, NO its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i KNOW more people that would agree with him over disagree


What ever I think that this thread proves otherwise . Second just because someone does not subscribe to your totalitarian outlook does not make them an idiot. You are a real peach aren't you .So its your way or the hi- way .Get real fair chase has nothing to do with size or age . Post up all them giant deer you big deer killer and them run for deer hunter Dictator of the year.

Having trouble killing deer ??? So you need to limit others or blame their hunting practices and I bet you would stop everyone from hunting except you if you could then maybe a giant buck would fall down from a heart attack one day in front of you because there would be so many .


See how ridiculous you sound when its put into real words instead of a rage fueled rant! I promis that you are deffuinatly in a very small minority.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

zap said:


> I agree with you completly.......
> My son has never killed a deer with his bow, even in that situation I would not let him shoot a button.
> 
> marty


Wow you are running father of the year ZAP its just a deer ZAP let the kid shot a deer you did.


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

One of my personal issues with his topic is the fact that I could shoot any doe and but and be done with Bow hunting within the first two weeks of the season. BUT then I would be done hunting for the year and I dont want that to happen! So naturally this leads me to passing deer so I can keep hunting. I am likely to have multiple chances at small bucks throughout the season but if I took one I would be done. On the other hand I may only get 1 or 2 quality chances at larger deer during the season so I choose to wait for these. Now this may happen on the first day of the season or the last but it still makes me be more selective with what I take. and if it DOESNT happen, oh well I have plenty of doe meat to eat AND all the other bucks I passed on this year might live and get bigger. Its a big win for me all across the board!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

satchamo said:


> yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, NO its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i KNOW more people that would agree with him over disagree



Seriously??? Good God man! get over yourself. Why on earth would you care what someone else shoots. No one is bashing for the guys opinion. They are bashing because he said he "HATED" people for doing something that has nothing to do with him or* you *for that matter. I honestly think that guys like you are a bunch of spoiled babies who think that your way is the only way. 

Hunting is no different than anything else in life...... Everyone makes there own decision on what is right for them.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

zap said:


> I agree with you completly.......
> My son has never killed a deer with his bow, even in that situation I would not let him shoot a button.
> 
> marty


ZAP..... Really? You wouldnt let him shoot a button for his first deer? I just dont get that at all......????


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

ozzz said:


> One of my personal issues with his topic is the fact that I could shoot any doe and but and be done with Bow hunting within the first two weeks of the season. BUT then I would be done hunting for the year and I dont want that to happen! So naturally this leads me to passing deer so I can keep hunting. I am likely to have multiple chances at small bucks throughout the season but if I took one I would be done. On the other hand I may only get 1 or 2 quality chances at larger deer during the season so I choose to wait for these. Now this may happen on the first day of the season or the last but it still makes me be more selective with what I take. and if it DOESNT happen, oh well I have plenty of doe meat to eat AND all the other bucks I passed on this year might live and get bigger. Its a big win for me all across the board!


Thats your choice and I respect you for that. Its all about personal choice. Your's is to wait and mine is to shoot.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

I don't understand the mentality behind guys that say "shoot a doe", "it's just a doe, save them buttons". Once again, the does are where the future deer come from. A buck will breed multiple does, so the thinning out of an inferior or young buck isn't hurting the herd any, while killing a doe takes countless offspring out of the picture.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

ozzz said:


> One of my personal issues with his topic is the fact that I could shoot any doe and but and be done with Bow hunting within the first two weeks of the season. BUT then I would be done hunting for the year and I dont want that to happen! So naturally this leads me to passing deer so I can keep hunting. I am likely to have multiple chances at small bucks throughout the season but if I took one I would be done. On the other hand I may only get 1 or 2 quality chances at larger deer during the season so I choose to wait for these. Now this may happen on the first day of the season or the last but it still makes me be more selective with what I take. and if it DOESNT happen, oh well I have plenty of doe meat to eat AND all the other bucks I passed on this year might live and get bigger. Its a big win for me all across the board!


Good for you but just because you pass up lots of deer does not mean anyone else should or will . Honestly most hunters do not live to hunt its just another hobby ion a long line of hobbies for them and the quicker they get done the faster they are gratified and they move on to other things . Lets face it deer hunting is not hard at all it is in todays world relatively easy compared to 30 years ago and what is the point of passing 20 deer up only to shoot one of the same exact size that you would of on day one. I may pass dozens of bucks and does a year but that is a personal thing just as it should be for you and every other hunt lets face it if a hunter shoots a spike in season somewhere 2 miles away really will not effect your hunt one way or the other because that deer will likely never be an animal you would ever shoot if you are true trophy buck hunter .


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I don't understand the mentality behind guys that say "shoot a doe", "it's just a doe, save them buttons". Once again, the does are where the future deer come from. A buck will breed multiple does, so the thinning out of an inferior or young buck isn't hurting the herd any, while killing a doe takes countless offspring out of the picture.


Yep, the ole matriarchal does get a pass for sure from me.....mostly cuz they are too damn smart for me to kill!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I think I should pick up another hobby. I have issues shooting does also because I realize they make 1-2 deer per year. I don't kill small bucks in hopes of seeing a mature deer. Think of how low my chances are each year to kill anything other than those pesky *****. I guess I'm considered a trophy hunter for those reasons. Problem is I'm one of those guys who have never killed a mature buck. I also believe that's why I keep hunting in hopes of one day achieving my goal. I believe the reasons we all fight about this comes down to what your goals are. If the are high then your a trophy hunter. If they are lower then your really a brown and downer. There is nothing wrong with either it's just a difference in personalities of each hunter. We are all posting on this thread to hopefully change 1 persons mind on the issue. Problem is most of us learn from our parents way back as to whether your a brown and downer or a trophy hunter. Kinda the same as if your a go getter in life and try to excel or if your a I don't need much, so I just need enough to get by.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I don't understand the mentality behind guys that say "shoot a doe", "it's just a doe, save them buttons". Once again, the does are where the future deer come from. A buck will breed multiple does, so the thinning out of an inferior or young buck isn't hurting the herd any, while killing a doe takes countless offspring out of the picture.


That sure depend's on the buck to doe ratio in the area you hunt....
Where I hunt it's very high.
At least 10-1 in some place's.
Very bad for rut movement, and not good for the food situation.



marty


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## traphuntfish (Dec 23, 2006)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.



some people are not gifted with the chance to hunt good ground. I might see 2 deer from the stand a year and if a spike or button buck walks with in shooting range i would bust him


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I don't understand the mentality behind guys that say "shoot a doe", "it's just a doe, save them buttons". Once again, the does are where the future deer come from. A buck will breed multiple does, so the thinning out of an inferior or young buck isn't hurting the herd any, while killing a doe takes countless offspring out of the picture.


As long as the ratio is not too far out of whack I agree. One place I have to hunt I hardly ever see a buck. The other place I saw more bucks than doe(s) this year. I really dont like to kill doe(s) but we are only allowed one buck in this state. I will agree though, no doe(s) no bucks.


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## traphuntfish (Dec 23, 2006)

satchamo said:


> yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, NO its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i KNOW more people that would agree with him over disagree


LOL wow you have no respect for hunters that shoot yearlings. I would absolutly love to see you walk into any hunting camp around here and say that.... people have different views on hunting man... That is probably one of the most idiot responses i have ever heard we all enjoy the same sport aint no reason to call people like me idiots unless your gonna do it in person


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

traphuntfish said:


> LOL wow you have no respect for hunters that shoot yearlings. I would absolutly love to see you walk into any hunting camp around here and say that....


I know this reply wasn't directed at me but man I have to seriously wonder exactly what kind of "hunting camps" you hunt at ?!? LOL!!! 

Because based on your quote from your last reply here *"I might see 2 deer from the stand a year"* that is NOT much of a hunting camp ?!? Where in the heck in Illinois is this camp.... you boys need a guide !!! LOL!!!


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## traphuntfish (Dec 23, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> I know this reply wasn't directed at me but man I have to seriously wonder exactly what kind of "hunting camps" you hunt at ?!? LOL!!!
> 
> Because based on your quote from your last reply here *"I might see 2 deer from the stand a year"* that is NOT much of a hunting camp ?!? Where in the heck in Illinois is this camp.... you boys need a guide !!! LOL!!!


Kaskaskia River bottoms we have 10 guys that have been hunting it all year including shotgun season and there have been 4 deer taken of the whole 400 acres of it. you have no clue what you are talking about so id stop there


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

And while we're on the subject of your way's "righter" than mine..........
How do you all feel about head shots?:wink:







The kids first!
Did we teach hime right or what?
It falls under the mentality of,practice,practice,practice,so when you got a shot you take it"!

I love the shows where all the boys are stand up "management" hunters,they've passed on a half dozen "shooters"...until the last day rolls around and "management" go's out the window!!!!!!!!

No "dog and pony show" here.








Don't be so serious about gettin' serious.....get serious about havin' fun!!!!!!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

traphuntfish said:


> Kaskaskia River bottoms we have 10 guys that have been hunting it all year including shotgun season and there have been 4 deer taken of the whole 400 acres of it. you have no clue what you are talking about so id stop there


LMAO!!! Seriously, 10 guys on 400 acres and you all shoot any and everything you see ....... LOL!!! I wonder why hunting seems a bit "tough" there? Perhaps some common sense and a bit of restraint should be used! 

You need a land/habitat consultant to spell it out for ya ?!? LOL!!!


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## 3dn4jc (Jun 25, 2007)

Some hate button buck shooters, some hate gun hunters, some hate cross bow hunters, some hates high fence hunters, some hate dog hunters, some hate corn pile hunters and some even hate doe killers. With all the hate we have in our sport of hunting it's a wonder we are able to call it enjoyable. I don't deprive anyone of doing what they enjoy as long as it is legal and ethical. I do dislike (not hate) anyone who tries to stop our sport of hunting though, just my 2 cents worth.


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## traphuntfish (Dec 23, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> LMAO!!! Seriously, 10 guys on 400 acres and you all shoot any and everything you see ....... LOL!!! I wonder why hunting seems a bit "tough" there? Perhaps some common sense and a bit of restraint should be used!
> 
> You need a land/habitat consultant to spell it out for ya ?!? LOL!!!


Man there is no reason arguing with you on here id love to have an convo about it in person but on here theres no point. you have no idea untill you see the land majority of it is swamp. most people think that it holds big bucks but it dont. I hunted there for a month and a half straight this year. i killed the biggest buck ever taken of this ground that we know of and it wasnt even a huge buck it was pushing 125 130. And that was the first deer i have seen all season from the stand


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## bmxrider11976 (Aug 28, 2010)

yeah!


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Good for you but just because you pass up lots of deer does not mean anyone else should or will . *Honestly most hunters do not live to hunt its just another hobby ion a long line of hobbies for them and the quicker they get done the faster they are gratified and they move on to other things .* Lets face it deer hunting is not hard at all it is in todays world relatively easy compared to 30 years ago and *what is the point of passing 20 deer up only to shoot one of the same exact size that you would of on day one*. I may pass dozens of bucks and does a year but that is a personal thing just as it should be for you and every other hunt *lets face it if a hunter shoots a spike in season somewhere 2 miles away really will not effect your hunt one way or the other because that deer will likely never be an animal you would ever shoot if you are true trophy buck hunter *.


I too have other hobbies but shooting the first small deer I see every year wouldnt gratify or excite me. Yes it would be ok and would give me meat but I wouldnt be as pumped up about shooting a little buck every year as I would be waiting for a bigger one. 

The idea isnt to pass deer on day one you will shoot later on. The idea is to pass little deer to wait for the bigger deer.

A spike that a hunter 2 miles away shoots COULD have been a trophy if it were allowed to live and 2 miles is well within a bucks range of travel, especially during the rut.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

ozzz said:


> I too have other hobbies but shooting the first small deer I see every year wouldnt gratify or excite me. Yes it would be ok and would give me meat but I wouldnt be as pumped up about shooting a little buck every year as I would be waiting for a bigger one.
> 
> The idea isnt to pass deer on day one you will shoot later on. The idea is to pass little deer to wait for the bigger deer.
> 
> A spike that a hunter 2 miles away shoots COULD have been a trophy if it were allowed to live and 2 miles is well within a bucks range of travel, especially during the rut.


dream on if it does not and is not standing on your hunting land you do not own it and need to worry about only the deer you can hunt . The main issue with wanting to control what others shoot.Secondly that buck being so antler deficient at 1.5 years of age will likely not ever be a top of the line trophy or will it make it to 5.5 years old wake up very few deer that are allowed to grow old will ever be a real big racked trophy.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

When I was younger I had different opportunities and was happy to kill a buck of any sort and I don't blame anyone else for doing so. Today I choose to hunt older bucks only. No does, no spikes, no buttons. I sometimes get critisized for my appoach to hunting deer but I am not an elitest. I just make choices that make hunting more enjoyable for me. If it made me happy to shoot spikes then I would. If it is legal then I have no opposition to it.

Doug


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> *dream on if it does not and is not standing on your hunting land you do not own it and need to worry about only the deer you can hunt *. The main issue with wanting to control what others shoot.Secondly that buck being so antler deficient at 1.5 years of age will likely not ever be a top of the line trophy or will it make it to 5.5 years old wake up very few deer that are allowed to grow old will ever be a real big racked trophy.


It is perfectly reasonable to think that a deer standing 2 miles off my property at some point of the season could be standing in front of my stand at another point in the season.

The rest sounds like a lot of justification on your part. Spikes and Forks can easily become larger more impressive animals with age. Certainly more impressive than they are when they are 1.5. It isnt all about rack either the body will grow with age as well, hence more meat.


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## SET THE HOOK (Dec 30, 2004)

What do I care what other people shoot??? I dont!! shoot whatever makes you happy!!

Pointless stupid thread!!!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

traphuntfish said:


> Kaskaskia River bottoms we have 10 guys that have been hunting it all year including shotgun season and there have been 4 deer taken of the whole 400 acres of it. you have no clue what you are talking about so id stop there


10 guys hunting 400 acres all season is the reason you dont see deer. Its called heavy pressure. Those deer know when you guys are there especially 10 of you. They will leave the area and not come back. If your hunting a swamp find another spot. You in illinois theres a good chance there is other land to hunt. lol


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

1156 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Please use the term conservationist in the correct sense. I have a background in "DNR" schooling and I can tell you one of the first things we learned was the difference between conservation, preservation and explotation! If you hunt chances are you are a conservationist, a conservationist is one who believes in the well bwing of the environment, that includes the animals, habitat, water quality, air quality etc.. Being a conservationist also believes in the wise use of our natural resources so that they are around for all to use now and in the future, including hunting, fishing, logging, mining, hydroelectric, farming, recreational sightseeing, snowmobiling, skiiing, biking, hiking, etc... Froma deerhunting perspective it means using hunting to control a population and keep that population in the carrying capacity of the habitiat, in layman terms it means keeping the deer in check with where they live. Have you seen what happens when deer are out of control? Farmer damage is just one thing that happens, then there are car accidents, deer eating flowers off your front steps, deer not affraid of humans, and fiannly disease! Let me tell you one thing mother nature always finds a way to control things if we like it or not! Being a preservationist you would to protect the environment from all uses. Great in thought, not good in reality.... Man has already screwed this up and due to that we have to reign in the halters a little bit. Some hunters are explotationist, those that are are out to use the environment for all it is worth. This could be either shooting more deer than they/the habitat cam handle. It can also mean "trophy" hunting is some aspects. Think of this, if you take a given deer population and only shoot all of the perfect bucks out of it what happens to the gene pool? I'm not saying that a person, if it is their interest to only shoot nice bucks, shouldn't, but if every one of us shot only the perfect bucks every year I think you'd be disapointed in you long term results. How does nature thin the herd, think nature discriminates? For the most part an explotationist is one who uses are natural resources beyond what the environment can support. These are the people/companies that use and use and never give back. So the next time we use the term conservationist lets use it in the right context. Anyone ever heard of "The Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold? If not I believe every hunter should read it before going out to the field! It was a book that was introduced to me before I started hunting. Thats funny because when I went for Natural Resources in college it was of the first books that we read. For those of you that do not recognize Aldo Leopold he is thought of as the forefather of modern day conservation by the natural resource community.
> 
> Basic DNR training 101, lol.....


1156 good post and I agree with that to not control the deer to the carrying capacity can cause serious side effects, which, I also tried to point out in a couple other posts. The question I have and no ones seems to either know the answer to or doesn't want to answer is; have any studies been done to prove that passing up spikes and buttons increases the mature buck population substantially. I would also like to know if any studies have been done on the mortality rate of deer in the wild and the number of deer that actually make it to maturity and can it be broken down into gender and age class.

Thanks, Roger


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

leave old does and little bucks alone shoot 6 pts or bigger. i donnot hang with baby killers, thats the way i roll.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Stykbow1 said:


> 1156 good post and I agree with that to not control the deer to the carrying capacity can cause serious side effects, which, I also tried to point out in a couple other posts. The question I have and no ones seems to either know the answer to or doesn't want to answer is; have any studies been done to prove that passing up spikes and buttons increases the mature buck population substantially. I would also like to know if any studies have been done on the mortality rate of deer in the wild and the number of deer that actually make it to maturity and can it be broken down into gender and age class.
> 
> Thanks, Roger


No offense roger but is that a serious question? You cant think that by killing bucks when they are small allows the buck population to get bigger. Its like anything if you have a hog farm and you kill small male hogs can you have more male hogs after you have killed them? I mean if you just killed two spikes off your property do you think you can see those deer next year? Does can have 2 fawn does. I mean if you killed the buck that got the doe pregnant and she has two does you have 1 less buck not 1 more buck. To me that would mean there is one less therefore you have less bucks unless you get some bucks off of another property. YOurs will have one less buck.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

greenboy said:


> leave old does and little bucks alone shoot 6 pts or bigger. i donnot hang with baby killers, thats the way i roll.


Nice I dont roll with none deer killers either!


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> It is perfectly reasonable to think that a deer standing 2 miles off my property at some point of the season could be standing in front of my stand at another point in the season.
> 
> The rest sounds like a lot of justification on your part. Spikes and Forks can easily become larger more impressive animals with age. Certainly more impressive than they are when they are 1.5. It isnt all about rack either the body will grow with age as well, hence more meat.


If you can somehow control all the variables and keep that deer from being eaten by coyotes, hit by a car, breaking a leg, dying of starvation, another hunter from shooting it, and the list goes on. The real question is does trophy hunting help the deer at all because I know that herd reduction does. When and if someone can provide concrete proof that by letting these deer walk it's guaranteed they will reach maturity and be a detriment to the herd to shoot them, then I can't see any reason to restrict killing them. Also more meat does not always equate to better meat either, a couple of tender spikes or buttons fill the freezer just as well.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## glock-cop (Apr 7, 2010)

wow, I can't believe this thread is still going.:happy1:


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> If you can somehow control all the variables and keep that deer from being eaten by coyotes, hit by a car, breaking a leg, dying of starvation, another hunter from shooting it, and the list goes on. The real question is does trophy hunting help the deer at all because I know that herd reduction does. When and if someone can provide concrete proof that by letting these deer walk it's guaranteed they will reach maturity and be a detriment to the herd to shoot them, then I can't see any reason to restrict killing them. Also more meat does not always equate to better meat either, a couple of tender spikes or buttons fill the freezer just as well.
> 
> Good Hunting, Roger


No you cant control any of the variables you mentioned. If I let a small buck walk yes he might get killed by you, hit by a car, break a leg, starve to death, get abducted by aliens and so on and so forth. However, if I put an arrow in his lungs this year he DEFINITELY will not make it until next year. Its about worrying the variables you can control not the ones you cannot. 

Also young doe meat tastes just as good as young buck meat.


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

*I know,lets ask.......*


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## skinner66 (Jun 5, 2010)

ozzz said:


> No you cant control any of the variables you mentioned. If I let a small buck walk yes he might get killed by you, hit by a car, break a leg, starve to death, get abducted by aliens and so on and so forth. However, if I put an arrow in his lungs this year he DEFINITELY will not make it until next year. Its about worrying the variables you can control not the ones you cannot.
> 
> Also young does meat tastes just as good as young doe meat.


young does tastes as good as young buck tastes !


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

Make It Happen said:


> I guees thats why there are only 30 plus responses with well over 600 views on that post. And some are repeats from the same poster. I guess hunters were real interested in helping the hungry. Last I heard donations are just that money out of your pocket. Blaming butchers for charging $40 and that they should do there part. They need to earn a living just like everyone else. Does it not cost them money to run their operation? Pay their bills, etc. I have no issue with killing a few deer but guys are shooting 10-15-20 plus deer. Give me a break... And the guys i shoot this 6 because i practice qdm and had to take him... I mean seriously fess up you wanted to shoot the deer, at least admit it. I am not talking about ubnj properties, I'm talking about wma and areas hit hard. How many nj posts state that they dont see crap and i shot the buck because if i didnt someone else would. I am done with this post... Besides I have to get back to butchering some deer for free to pay the bills because hunters paid for their equipment, permits, gas and tolls. I also blame the butcher shop or drop off place for not posting a sign asking for a dontation on deer left for the hunters helping the hungry program. If I was the butcher and a person cont. dropped off deer without dontating I would open my mouth and say something. Especially since I am making money off the program and would want to see it stick. Enjoy the rest of your season, I am very glade and yes fortunate that I hunt private areas. And we and the surrounding properties do the same for the most part.


MIT I've never met anyone hunting WMA's, UBNJ, or private property that has taken more than 5 or 6 deer in a complete season that include bow gun and muzzleloader. I agree that if your constantly dropping off deer and never contributing it would be a nice gesture to pay for a couple of those butcher jobs. I don't know who these hunters are taking 20 deer but I would agree that is a bit excessive for one person by anyones standards. You have a great season also and thanks for helping out with the deer wish others would do the same.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## drenalinhunter1 (Feb 6, 2009)

glock-cop said:


> wow, I can't believe this thread is still going.:happy1:


im guessing at least 30 pages by christmas


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## glock-cop (Apr 7, 2010)

drenalinhunter1 said:


> im guessing at least 30 pages by christmas


I think we will get 30 by next thursday night lol


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Stykbow1 said:


> If you can somehow control all the variables and keep that deer from being eaten by coyotes, hit by a car, breaking a leg, dying of starvation, another hunter from shooting it, and the list goes on. The real question is does trophy hunting help the deer at all because I know that herd reduction does. When and if someone can provide concrete proof that by letting these deer walk it's guaranteed they will reach maturity and be a detriment to the herd to shoot them, then I can't see any reason to restrict killing them. Also more meat does not always equate to better meat either, a couple of tender spikes or buttons fill the freezer just as well.
> 
> Good Hunting, Roger


5
your exactly right you cant control those things. But you can control the number of immature bucks you have killed and add them to the car,coyotes and broken leg logic. Guess what now you just added to the list. Here is a easy way to think about it. Let say you have 1k acres. Deer can easily stay within this range all year. Now you just killed 5 spikes between you and your friends. Thats 5 less bucks. Now lets say you get really lucky and all of your does make only buck babies. we all know this wont happen but for argument sake we will. So you have 20 new buck babies for you to kill this year. Guess what your still missing the 5 bucks you and your friends killed. YOU would have had 25 bucks now instead of 20. To me that would mean you have more bucks in the herd not less.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> No you cant control any of the variables you mentioned. If I let a small buck walk yes he might get killed by you, hit by a car, break a leg, starve to death, get abducted by aliens and so on and so forth. However, if I put an arrow in his lungs this year he DEFINITELY will not make it until next year. Its about worrying the variables you can control not the ones you cannot.
> 
> Also young does meat tastes just as good as young doe meat.


That's right you can only control what you do, so you choose to not shoot, but that does not mean that deer will make it to the next season or next week. So it seems a moot point from a management point of view to not kill a legal animal. You also haven't explained how passing on the buttons and spikes helps the herd. Yes doe meat taste great also and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a doe either but some here feel shooting a doe is just as bad or worse than shooting a button or spike. As I've said before show me the stats that prove not taking buttons and spikes will improve the overall quality of the deer herd and I will concede you have a valid point, otherwise, I think it's more about horns and scores than a healthy deer herd.
Good Hunting, Roger


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

oh and they sure arent reaching maturity if you killed them at 1.5yrs....no chance but they may just dodge the pickup with the poachers in the back.


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> That's right you can only control what you do, so you choose to not shoot,* but that does not mean that deer will make it to the next season or next week.* So it seems a moot point from a management point of view to not kill a legal animal. *You also haven't explained how passing on the buttons and spikes helps the herd.* Yes doe meat taste great also and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a doe either but some here feel shooting a doe is just as bad or worse than shooting a button or spike. As I've said before show me the stats that prove not taking buttons and spikes will improve the overall quality of the deer herd and I will concede you have a valid point, otherwise, I think it's more about horns and scores than a healthy deer herd.
> Good Hunting, Roger


Didnt say it meant he would make it to tomorrow but it gives him a much much better chance.

Overall age structure of the heard. Passing a 1.5 gives it a better chance to be a 2.5, passing a 2.5 gives it a better chance to be a 3.5 and so on. It is fairly simple logic.

As for overall quality of the herd. I see a dispraportionate share of younger bucks so therefore it is good for the herd to balance the age structure.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

flyin2jz said:


> 5
> your exactly right you cant control those things. But you can control the number of immature bucks you have killed and add them to the car,coyotes and broken leg logic. Guess what now you just added to the list. Here is a easy way to think about it. Let say you have 1k acres. Deer can easily stay within this range all year. Now you just killed 5 spikes between you and your friends. Thats 5 less bucks. Now lets say you get really lucky and all of your does make only buck babies. we all know this wont happen but for argument sake we will. So you have 20 new buck babies for you to kill this year. Guess what your still missing the 5 bucks you and your friends killed. YOU would have had 25 bucks now instead of 20. To me that would mean you have more bucks in the herd not less.


Well that may be true but according to wildlife biologist a ratio as close to 1to1 as possible is best for the deer herd anyway. You are only looking at this from a standpoint of hunting not managing the herd because wether you have 20 or 25 bucks some of them are going to die and some are going to live and of those the younger less experienced will always be the more likely to be killed. Even if you didn't shoot those five bucks they may very well have died anyway by other means. It's the same reason that other game animals like rabbits and doves have such liberal bag limits because most of the young are going to die anyway from natural causes, it all balances out. Don't forget our seasons and bag limits are based on population control not trophy buck control. They don't manage for bucks they manage for carrying capacity of the land.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> Well that may be true but *according to wildlife biologist a ratio as close to 1to1 as possible is best for the deer herd* anyway. You are only looking at this from a standpoint of hunting not managing the herd because wether you have 20 or 25 bucks some of them are going to die and some are going to live and of those the younger less experienced will always be the more likely to be killed. Even if you didn't shoot those five bucks they may very well have died anyway by other means. It's the same reason that other game animals like rabbits and doves have such liberal bag limits because most of the young are going to die anyway from natural causes, it all balances out. Don't forget our seasons and bag limits are based on population control not trophy buck control. They don't manage for bucks they manage for carrying capacity of the land.
> 
> Good Hunting, Roger


I agree with this and practice it as much as my tags allow me to. Doesnt mean you have to shoot little bucks.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

:laser: :moose:


:toothy2:


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> Didnt say it meant he would make it to tomorrow but it gives him a much much better chance.
> 
> Overall age structure of the heard. Passing a 1.5 gives it a better chance to be a 2.5, passing a 2.5 gives it a better chance to be a 3.5 and so on. It is fairly simple logic.
> 
> As for overall quality of the herd. I see a dispraportionate share of younger bucks so therefore it is good for the herd to balance the age structure.


In a perfect world that would be true, if it were only that simple, what about genetics, quality of food, predator population, diseases, hunting pressure, weather, these things can all and will combine to make simple logic fall by the wayside. If your seeing too many younger bucks wouldn't it make more sense to harvest some of the younger deer and let the midrange deer get a little older almost like a slot limit for fish. I would think if your seeing too many younger deer not shooting any isn't going to remove any from that pool of age class only add to it. I know on some deer leases they allow cull bucks just for this reason and these places are managed intensely for quality bucks as well as healthy herds. As far as spikes in many of these places they remove them I don't know about buttons. 

Good Hunting, Roger


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> In a perfect world that would be true, if it were only that simple, what about genetics, quality of food, predator population, diseases, hunting pressure, weather, these things can all and will combine to make simple logic fall by the wayside. If your seeing too many younger bucks wouldn't it make more sense to harvest some of the younger deer and let the midrange deer get a little older almost like a slot limit for fish. I would think if your seeing too many younger deer not shooting any isn't going to remove any from that pool of age class only add to it. I know on some deer leases they allow cull bucks just for this reason and these places are managed intensely for quality bucks as well as healthy herds. As far as spikes in many of these places they remove them I don't know about buttons.
> 
> Good Hunting, Roger


Your righ it isnt a perfect world and thats why you have to do what you can do to manipulate the variables that you can. Genetics, not a lot you can do about that but my area seems to be ok in that department. Check. Quality of food is another issue. Find the weak links. What are they lacking and what can you do to enhance/provide it? Check. Predator population, dang coyotes. Trap em and shoot em, shoot em when you see them hunting. Check. Hunting pressure. Hunt Smart. Check. Weather. Yes weather plays a role in deer behavior. Global warming  So it isnt SIMPLE logic but that doesnt mean you should throw the baby out with the bath water and slam adolescents and babys when you could be working on it.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> I agree with this and practice it as much as my tags allow me to. Doesnt mean you have to shoot little bucks.


Yes it doesn't mean *you* have to do it but it doesn't prove that those who do are hurting the deer herd in any way shape or form and it's only because* you* prefer to shoot something with bigger horns. That works for you and it appeals to your sense of fair-chase but in some places yes you do have to shoot small bucks because they are part of the herd and in many situations it's a numbers game. I don't know where you are from but I live in NJ and in many areas the deer literally will overrun an area unless they are brought under control. To make matters worse some of these areas are very urban and the deer are in small pockets close to homes, hence the 150 ft perimeter bill they passed this year, which allows us to try and harvest some of these deer or risk having companies hired to do it. If we just shot big bucks we would be kicked out of many of these areas and to those running these hunts a button or spike is just as good as a doe. Again hunt the way that makes you happy but don't confuse deer management with trophy management they are too different things.

Good hunting, Roger


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## davejohnson2 (Mar 20, 2008)

all these spoiled rotten hunters with great land trying to control others. i shot a 5 point this year, was he a monster? no, he was actually wounded so i did the right thing and shot him, i wonder if you "trophy" hunters would have let him go to suffer? 









here he is



last year i shot a 3 point, it was a great hunt, called him right in, first kill my girl friend had ever seen, we had a blast!













you guys should pull your almighty giant heads out of your ass and see that there is more to hunting than just the antlers. it is about spending time out in the woods, enjoying it with friends and family, and getting some venison. you should realize that there are a lot of people that live in areas where it is hard to get shots at deer, espically big deer, because they are just so few and far between, and it is all big woods, not much for fields. out in the mid west you guys have no idea how good you have it. i will continue to shoot what i want when i want, i mean, i do pass on small bucks and buttons most of the time, but, if i want one i will shoot it and there is nothing you can do about it.


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> Yes it doesn't mean *you* have to do it but *it doesn't prove that those who do are hurting the deer herd in any way shape or form and it's only because you prefer to shoot something with bigger horns.* That works for you and it appeals to your sense of fair-chase but in some places yes you do have to shoot small bucks because they are part of the herd and in many situations it's a numbers game. I don't know where you are from but I live in NJ and in many areas the deer literally will overrun an area unless they are brought under control. To make matters worse some of these areas are very urban and the deer are in small pockets close to homes, hence the 150 ft perimeter bill they passed this year, which allows us to try and harvest some of these deer or risk having companies hired to do it. If we just shot big bucks we would be kicked out of many of these areas and to those running these hunts a button or spike is just as good as a doe. Again hunt the way that makes you happy but don't confuse deer management with trophy management they are too different things.
> 
> Good hunting, Roger


Im not confusing deer management with trophy deer management in any sense what so ever. Your right, it doesnt proove those shooting small bucks are hurting the herd at all but it sure doesnt proove they are helping it either, it goes both ways. Every situation is different from area to area and such sweeping generalities cant be made. The goal is not just big ANTLERS (as opposed to horns) it is about doing what you can to promote a healthy herd. Sounds like your in a situation where you are more or less obligated to shoot small bucks? If your over run with button bucks where you hunt and are doing the herd a favor by killing some of them, cheers. In my situation I dont have an over abundance of buttons and spikes. I have some but I also have 2.5's, 3.5's and 4.5's. I have some of those older age class deer because they were allowed to live by me and my neighbors. We enjoy the experience of working to achieve a health balanced herd and for use a piece of that puzzle is watching deer walk under your stand.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

davejohnson2 said:


> all these spoiled rotten hunters with great land trying to control others. i shot a 5 point this year, was he a monster? no, he was actually wounded so i did the right thing and shot him, i wonder if you "trophy" hunters would have let him go to suffer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It might be about the challange of shooting a mature deer..........
The patiance to let young deer walk......
Being unafraid to eat a tag......
Learning how to get close enough to older deer to put an arrow thru them....

Shoot what you want, but the grass is not alway's greener on the other side of the fence.
Plenty of folk's bowhunt in the midwest and do not see mature deer....


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> Your righ it isnt a perfect world and thats why you have to do what you can do to manipulate the variables that you can. Genetics, not a lot you can do about that but my area seems to be ok in that department. Check. Quality of food is another issue. Find the weak links. What are they lacking and what can you do to enhance/provide it? Check. Predator population, dang coyotes. Trap em and shoot em, shoot em when you see them hunting. Check. Hunting pressure. Hunt Smart. Check. Weather. Yes weather plays a role in deer behavior. Global warming  So it isnt SIMPLE logic but that doesnt mean you should throw the baby out with the bath water and slam adolescents and babys when you could be working on it.


All good ideas but you seem to be confusing herd management with trophy management, a baby or adolescent deer is still a deer and in many areas not harvesting leads to overpopulation and destruction of habitat, letting them walk does nothing to control the population. Even if you only killed mature bucks and does it still wouldn't be enough to make the herd in line with the carrying capacity of the area. We have the Audubon Society complaining all the time that the deer are destroying the ground nesting areas of many birds and browsing so much that the plants don't come back. Also D&DH hunting just had an article not to long ago saying that killing too many mature does has a major negative impact on the younger deer in the herd, so maybe it's not so great to shoot all the does either. While killing what you term babies and adolescents seems to bother you they are still part of the herd and in the wild they get no free rides, while not very Disney like it is nature, and while you think it's unfair or unsporting to shoot them, science hasn't proven it's detrimental to the deer population if you do. 

Good Hunting, Roger


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## 1156 (Nov 4, 2010)

Roger,

Have you gone to school for Natural Resources? If not you're right in most of your observations..... I'd have to pull oput my old books to remember all of the exact terms but there is carrying capacity which is the population of a species that an environment can support. Then you have surplus capacity which is the population that is above the carrying capacity. Are these exact numbers, of course not. A wildlife biologist uses indicators to tell them the health of a herd. A herd that is near Carrying capacity is at carrying capacity in the spring of the year. The carrying capacity is not met until right before the offspring of the year are born. The surplus capacity will die annually! Believe it or not this is true and we do not control this, mother nature does. If we harvest a portion of the surplus capacity(hunting) the herd will have an opportunity to survive at its capacity through the winter. Here, in northern Minnesota we have a winter out of every ten that will almost annilate or herd. It doesn't matter on the best managemnet of anything, the weather controls all. Also, when winter gets tought what deer succumb and which deer survive? The young and sick and elderly are at the most risk, for the most part these are our surplus capacity! Therefore if we harvest a portion of these it doesn't matter for the following year. Most people can not see this in terms of the health of a population as a whole. The reason the dnr gives out surplus doe tags is to help control the population to its carrying capacity..... PERIOD! The reason certain areas are bucks only is to help build the herd.... PERIOD! No doubt if you pass on a smaller buck he does have a chance to make it till next year..... but will he, statistics say the young are the most vunerable? From a management standpoint you'd be much better to let your 4's and 6's grow up to be 8-10-12 than pass on spikes and forks. No matter what unless you flat out over hunt an environment some of those bucks will make it through to 2.5years old.... they did this for a reason, survival of the fittest...... These are the deer you want to grow and breed for the general health of the herd (the strongest, smartest, healthiest) Take pheasants as a good example..... It doesn't much matter what we shoot annually, the environment dictates the population, grouse also 10 year cycle regardless of hunting.... For example, in 1997 we had a horendous year in Northern Minnesota, in 1998 while in college I found a skeleton of a beautiful buck, his head, antlers, and all intact. What did he die from? Probably starvation.... he was surplus capacity for the environment at that time. Did he make it to be bigger the next year? No he didn't..... so as a hunter if we would of passed him it wouldn't have mattered.... he and a whole lot of others would still have died anyway. For those of you that think your hunting area matters to such a minute population and environment, I'd hate to tell you that it doesn't affect the whole herd much. If you have good habitat deer will find that environment and utilize it. If you don't have good habitat they'll use it much less. Unless you have a 10 foot high fence and feed deer like cattle you will not control which animals stay in that area annually. Now if you own thousands of acres of course what I just said doesn't pertain.... but those of you that hunt on 40 acres it doesn't mean squat. Does this mean you shouldn't pracitce best managemnt practices for habitat and so forth, of course not because if you and some of your neighbors take the time to improve your habitat it will help the health of the herd. You can then call yourselves conservationist..... On the land that I farm we pracitce habitat improvement not deer control. We abide by the rules that our DNR sets for us on bag limits and doe/buck limits.... Rememeber I farm 2300 acres and have control of who hunts it and what they hunt for..... but we don't control the deer! Do we see some nice deer each year, sure I do..... from the tractor seat! Are those animals around come hunting season probably not..... some are sure but others are moving through, especially durring the rut. What do I do to help the herd.... I leave some crop standing(remember my money is sitting there getting eaten by your deer), I don't till certain areas that I know wildlife will utilize for food durring the winter months, we promote cover establishment in waste areas, and we have a good time hunting! If someone wants to shoot a spike... good for them! If they want to shoot a doe.... by all means! If they want to wait for a biggen.... be patient! All in all we utilize what the DNR wants us to do to have a healthy deer herd. Just because someone wants some meat in the freezer doesn't necessarily mean your trophy won't be ther next year.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> Im not confusing deer management with trophy deer management in any sense what so ever. Your right, it doesnt proove those shooting small bucks are hurting the herd at all but it sure doesnt proove they are helping it either, it goes both ways. Every situation is different from area to area and such sweeping generalities cant be made. The goal is not just big ANTLERS (as opposed to horns) it is about doing what you can to promote a healthy herd. Sounds like your in a situation where you are more or less obligated to shoot small bucks? If your over run with button bucks where you hunt and are doing the herd a favor by killing some of them, cheers. In my situation I dont have an over abundance of buttons and spikes. I have some but I also have 2.5's, 3.5's and 4.5's. I have some of those older age class deer because they were allowed to live by me and my neighbors. We enjoy the experience of working to achieve a health balanced herd and for use a piece of that puzzle is watching deer walk under your stand.


Yes I agree not all areas are the same and sometimes one rule doesn't always fit every situation and consider yourself lucky that you and your friends work together to keep some older deer around but not all hunters have that luxury. For many in my part of the country any deer taken legally is considered a trophy and unless you walk a mile in their moccasins you wouldn't really understand. I personally haven't read anywhere that killing spikes or buttons has an adverse affect on the health of a deer herd but then again until I read the article in D&DH I hadn't heard much negative about shooting does either. In my little corner of the world habitat loss is the deer's major concern not the hunter, every year we lose more and more land to development, so both the deer and hunter are squeezed into ever smaller areas. The mantra is to reduce and control the herd and as I stated earlier to the state and hunt managers does, buttons, and spikes are equally fair game. To some that may seem extreme and foolish but in our area it's a way of life and I'd rather hunt than not hunt and I do like the taste of venison, even if mine may come in a smaller package than yours. Good conversing with you guys & gals and have fun in the woods.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## 1156 (Nov 4, 2010)

I have one more for all to think about.... What is your best chances to get a "trophy" buck..... ???? Hunt where there are trophies! I don't mean that you can't be sitting in a stand and happen to have a nice deer come out, what I mean is do your research and hunt in areas/counties where big bucks are prominant. These areas could be controlled by topography, nutrition(minerals), or genetics. One of the best areas I've ever hunted was bucks only and everyone shot anything they could and there were still more record book bucks taken there than anywhere else in this state. I saw more big deer harvested there in one year than I have ever seen here combined. Do you think all of these movies of huge deer being shot are taken in their backyards, of course not. Those that are making these shows are going to areas with huge deer. Not all areas even have the possibility of producing deer that big. Know the herd prospects where you hunt.


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

1156 said:


> Roger,
> 
> Have you gone to school for Natural Resources? If not you're right in most of your observations..... I'd have to pull oput my old books to remember all of the exact terms but there is carrying capacity which is the population of a species that an environment can support. Then you have surplus capacity which is the population that is above the carrying capacity. Are these exact numbers, of course not. A wildlife biologist uses indicators to tell them the health of a herd. A herd that is near Carrying capacity is at carrying capacity in the spring of the year. The carrying capacity is not met until right before the offspring of the year are born. The surplus capacity will die annually! Believe it or not this is true and we do not control this, mother nature does. If we harvest a portion of the surplus capacity(hunting) the herd will have an opportunity to survive at its capacity through the winter. Here, in northern Minnesota we have a winter out of every ten that will almost annilate or herd. It doesn't matter on the best managemnet of anything, the weather controls all. Also, when winter gets tought what deer succumb and which deer survive? The young and sick and elderly are at the most risk, for the most part these are our surplus capacity! Therefore if we harvest a portion of these it doesn't matter for the following year. Most people can not see this in terms of the health of a population as a whole. The reason the dnr gives out surplus doe tags is to help control the population to its carrying capacity..... PERIOD! The reason certain areas are bucks only is to help build the herd.... PERIOD! No doubt if you pass on a smaller buck he does have a chance to make it till next year..... but will he, statistics say the young are the most vunerable? From a management standpoint you'd be much better to let your 4's and 6's grow up to be 8-10-12 than pass on spikes and forks. No matter what unless you flat out over hunt an environment some of those bucks will make it through to 2.5years old.... they did this for a reason, survival of the fittest...... These are the deer you want to grow and breed for the general health of the herd (the strongest, smartest, healthiest) Take pheasants as a good example..... It doesn't much matter what we shoot annually, the environment dictates the population, grouse also 10 year cycle regardless of hunting.... For example, in 1997 we had a horendous year in Northern Minnesota, in 1998 while in college I found a skeleton of a beautiful buck, his head, antlers, and all intact. What did he die from? Probably starvation.... he was surplus capacity for the environment at that time. Did he make it to be bigger the next year? No he didn't..... so as a hunter if we would of passed him it wouldn't have mattered.... he and a whole lot of others would still have died anyway. For those of you that think your hunting area matters to such a minute population and environment, I'd hate to tell you that it doesn't affect the whole herd much. If you have good habitat deer will find that environment and utilize it. If you don't have good habitat they'll use it much less. Unless you have a 10 foot high fence and feed deer like cattle you will not control which animals stay in that area annually. Now if you own thousands of acres of course what I just said doesn't pertain.... but those of you that hunt on 40 acres it doesn't mean squat. Does this mean you shouldn't pracitce best managemnt practices for habitat and so forth, of course not because if you and some of your neighbors take the time to improve your habitat it will help the health of the herd. You can then call yourselves conservationist..... On the land that I farm we pracitce habitat improvement not deer control. We abide by the rules that our DNR sets for us on bag limits and doe/buck limits.... Rememeber I farm 2300 acres and have control of who hunts it and what they hunt for..... but we don't control the deer! Do we see some nice deer each year, sure I do..... from the tractor seat! Are those animals around come hunting season probably not..... some are sure but others are moving through, especially durring the rut. What do I do to help the herd.... I leave some crop standing(remember my money is sitting there getting eaten by your deer), I don't till certain areas that I know wildlife will utilize for food durring the winter months, we promote cover establishment in waste areas, and we have a good time hunting! If someone wants to shoot a spike... good for them! If they want to shoot a doe.... by all means! If they want to wait for a biggen.... be patient! All in all we utilize what the DNR wants us to do to have a healthy deer herd. Just because someone wants some meat in the freezer doesn't necessarily mean your trophy won't be ther next year.


1156 no I haven't gone to school for it but I did want to be a wildlife biologist back in high school and I read a lot about deer and habitat in any of the magazines and books that I can find on the subject. The point I was trying to get across was that letting a button or spike walk is not a guarantee of a bigger buck come next year. I was also trying to let people know that the young and old are naturally the first to go so not shooting either group has little if any substantial affect on that group dynamic. I'm glad to see that what I've been reading does have a basis in sound wildlife management. Thanks for the info and I whole heartedly agree with you. Now how many acres did you say you had......:smile:


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> All good ideas but you seem to be confusing herd management with trophy management, *a baby or adolescent deer is still a deer and in many areas not harvesting leads to overpopulation and destruction of habitat*, letting them walk does nothing to control the population. Even if you only killed mature bucks and does it still wouldn't be enough to make the herd in line with the carrying capacity of the area. We have the Audubon Society complaining all the time that the deer are destroying the ground nesting areas of many birds and browsing so much that the plants don't come back. Also D&DH hunting just had an article not to long ago saying that killing too many mature does has a major negative impact on the younger deer in the herd, so maybe it's not so great to shoot all the does either. While killing what you term babies and adolescents seems to bother you they are still part of the herd and in the wild they get no free rides, while not very Disney like it is nature, and *while you think it's unfair or unsporting to shoot them*, science hasn't proven it's detrimental to the deer population if you do.
> 
> Good Hunting, Roger


A baby deer is still a deer, right you are. A large mature buck is also a deer. A deer that will likely use more resources than a smaller deer. Taking a mature buck does as much for the population as taking a small buck does. I understand not everyone has these choices to make. I am not advocating never ever killing any small bucks. I am advocating making sound management decisions through careful observation.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

I think alot of people think that us Ohio guys have mature bucks running everywhere. This is not the case at all. I hunt alot, I take 2 weeks off every year and have done this for years. I have only had 2 big bucks in front of me and have somehow messed up both. There are big bucks just about everywhere it's just most just assume they can't harvest one so they kill whatever presents itself. I believe guys will take a small buck more often after ther they have achieved the goal of killing a mature one. I hope this happens to me because the tag soup hasn't cooked up to good over the last 2 yrs


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## Michigan Bob (Oct 26, 2002)

I hate my self.:sad:

Not really tasted good. Just thought i would give someone something to hate all day.:wink:


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> I think alot of people think that us Ohio guys have mature bucks running everywhere. This is not the case at all. I hunt alot, I take 2 weeks off every year and have done this for years. I have only had 2 big bucks in front of me and have somehow messed up both. There are big bucks just about everywhere it's just most just assume they can't harvest one so they kill whatever presents itself. I believe guys will take a small buck more often after ther they have achieved the goal of killing a mature one. I hope this happens to me because the tag soup hasn't cooked up to good over the last 2 yrs


I'm in Illionois so I have good deer around me, but I'm sure the secret to killing a bid deer here is the same as everywhere else. and it's the same secret as finding a good wife......you gotta have the foresight to let the mediocre ones walk


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Csquared said:


> I'm in Illionois so I have good deer around me, but I'm sure the secret to killing a bid deer here is the same as everywhere else. and it's the same secret as finding a good wife......you gotta have the foresight to let the mediocre ones walk


Funny thing you are right but the one thing I have not seen one person from either side say is that you have can kill every little buck you want and still kill a giant one . In fact I think every hunter here is smart enough to know they have to wait and let deer pass to evntually kill a big buck . That is one point I do not think anyone is argueing.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Funny thing you are right but the one thing I have not seen one person from either side say is that you have can kill every little buck you want and still kill a giant one . In fact I think every hunter here is smart enough to know they have to wait and let deer pass to evntually kill a big buck . That is one point I do not think anyone is argueing.


 The thing is opening morning you'll see a guy that harvested a nice basket rack 6. I have no issues with that as it qualifies as a legal buck. Where the annoyance comes in is when the guy that shoots the basket rack and proceeds to whinge there are no large buck in the area. It is irritating in the fact the guy is wrong. Every year the area produces a nice 160-170" buck or two harvested (that I find out about). For me it's not the fact the guy shot a basket rack. It's that the guy wants to bemoan the lack of larger bucks without doing his part to increase the odds of a buck making through to the next year. Here in Pa I do dislike people that shoot spikes as they are protected against harvest by the majority of the hunting population. If a guy shoots a spike, chances are it is poaching and he needs to pay the penalty for it.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Jarocal said:


> The thing is opening morning you'll see a guy that harvested a nice basket rack 6. I have no issues with that as it qualifies as a legal buck. Where the annoyance comes in is when the guy that shoots the basket rack and proceeds to whinge there are no large buck in the area. It is irritating in the fact the guy is wrong. Every year the area produces a nice 160-170" buck or two harvested (that I find out about). For me it's not the fact the guy shot a basket rack. It's that the guy wants to bemoan the lack of larger bucks without doing his part to increase the odds of a buck making through to the next year. Here in Pa I do dislike people that shoot spikes as they are protected against harvest by the majority of the hunting population. If a guy shoots a spike, chances are it is poaching and he needs to pay the penalty for it.


Learn to let them Whine!! And simple walk away do not take their problems ,inability,and lack of Patience with them .People always shoulder the problems of others and it is what enablers want.So on essance let it go and enjpy the way you want to hunt and know that they are no longer an issue because they are now out of the woods.


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> In fact I think every hunter here is smart enough to know they have to wait and let deer pass to evntually kill a big buck


I disagree. My comments were in response to the previous post, and although mainly meant for amusement the point was most people are tagged out before their path finally crosses the big one's. Although I am one who personally doesn't like to kill young deer I freely admit it is entirely possible to have a huge buck on property where no size limits are imposed. We can argue all day about what allows a buck to live long enough to reach full potential, but my personal opinion is it has very little to do with individual intelligence or learned behavior, but we have no restrictions on state ground here and we still see big bucks being taken on and around state ground all the time.

But if I could make one other point on this subject it would be this. And remember, I will agressively fight for each individual hunter to maintain the right to kill the deer of HIS choice...as long as the population will allow it, so don't read anything into what I'm about to say. I've been deer hunting a long time, and along the way have gotten to know many, many "meat" hunters. They are quick to point out they're not after horns, etc., but when the day comes they do connect with a big one it's like they won the lottery! And I understand, but the point is virtually EVERYONE, whether they admit it or not, is in the woods at least partly due to the ever present chance of seeing the big one...and every small buck shot is one less left to make someone else's day....or lifetime!!! In all my years I know of ONE TIME when one of those meat hunters actually passed up a 200+ lb, 160 class buck because he wanted the meat from a doe or smaller buck. Again, not saying that's right or wrong, only saying that I think a LOT more people than are willing to admit it would like to see more big bucks, and the best way to increase those odds are to wait for a doe for the freezer.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

satchamo said:


> yeah all the hoorah idiots that dont have any ground worth a dick to hunt are gonna get on here and be like, NO its good meat cause they dont see anything else to shoot. News flash! A full grown doe tastes just as good! The point of fair chase hunting is for fair chase, chasing young, ignorant deer is not fair chase. There are too damn many does around for idiots go around shooting buttons. I dont care, i have no respect for hunters killing yearlings, at all. If someone wants to share their opinions let them, dont bash the guy for sharing a very very valid point that i KNOW more people that would agree with him over disagree


Amazing, I go away for the holiday, come back, and this thread is as good as when I left.

Go through the thread, and you will see that the Trophy Hunters are on the losing end of this argument.

I'll be out tomorrow...hopefully, I bang a spike...or a 10 pointer...doesn't really matter to me.

Hey, at least I stick with the compound all year round...I never resort to the .300 Win Mag anymore. To me, that's just plain unfair, no matter what size deer it is.


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## davejohnson2 (Mar 20, 2008)

zap said:


> It might be about the challange of shooting a mature deer..........
> The patiance to let young deer walk......
> Being unafraid to eat a tag......
> Learning how to get close enough to older deer to put an arrow thru them....
> ...


i actually do let young deer walk, and i have yet to fill 4 tags yet but dont feel the need to if they are young deer. i shot the 5 because he was injured and had a weird looking rack, and the 3 because it was just a plain fun hunt. i have also passed on many forkys and spikes this year, even a smaller 8, just because i would like to see them grow up and get bigger. dont think because someone shoots a small buck once in a while, means they do all the time, sure, i have shot a few small ones, but have also let alot walk to get bigger. it all depends on what i want to shoot that day, also, i bet that grass in the midwest is alot greener than that here in the mountains of the east :wink:


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> Go through the thread, and you will see that the Trophy Hunters are on the losing end of this argument.


I guess I would fall into the category of a "trophy hunter", but I don't feel like I've lost anything? :secret:

Maybe that's because I'm also a meat hunter.......I just don't confuse the two :smile:

Seriously though, there is no greater "trophy" than a doe watching a fawn or two. I swear she can hear you blink. If you can consistently score on mature does the buck pursuing those does should be no problem at all


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

well maybe not everybody only hunts for trophy bucks osme of us eat our deer


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

davejohnson2 said:


> i actually do let young deer walk, and i have yet to fill 4 tags yet but dont feel the need to if they are young deer. i shot the 5 because he was injured and had a weird looking rack, and the 3 because it was just a plain fun hunt. i have also passed on many forkys and spikes this year, even a smaller 8, just because i would like to see them grow up and get bigger. dont think because someone shoots a small buck once in a while, means they do all the time, sure, i have shot a few small ones, but have also let alot walk to get bigger. it all depends on what i want to shoot that day, also, i bet that grass in the midwest is alot greener than that here in the mountains of the east :wink:


yup. i have passed on alot of small bucks over the years. then i decided what i havnt got a bow buck yet and blasted a 4 point. passed alot of smaller this year then in the last 2 weeks had a spike come in range asking for it, so i let him have it. now i have some meat and a new knife. i passed on a few small deer already for shotgun and plan to keep letting them walk because i have seen several big bucks this year and i already have meat. just because once and awhile some one wants to shoot a little one doesnt mean they do it full time and slaughter every thing they see. but if they do, good for them. they paid forit and if there happy im happy. its nota ll about the points or size of the antlers. also i have seen more small bucks then doe this year and last year so the shoot a doe instead of a buck thing doesnt make since to me. seems like way to many people are doing that in my area.


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

well spikes taste just as good as those trophys some of think who hunt for big racks are jerks


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Debate the topic guys.......name calling will lead to the thread going away, and possibly more.:smile:


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

what are u saying SHOULDERNUKE is that a word ( enjpy ) post 821 i just though i would do a spell check for u, an i even agree with some of what u say.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Learn to let them Whine!! And simple walk away do not take their problems ,inability,and lack of Patience with them .People always shoulder the problems of others and it is what enablers want.So on essance let it go and enjpy the way you want to hunt and know that they are no longer an issue because they are now out of the woods.


 I have no intention of shouldering their problems. To me their problem is ignorance. A lot of the people around here feel the PGC has overallocated doe tags(statewide) for monetary purposes. In the same conversation they will state how most of the land they used to be able to hunt is now housing developments, They don't see as many deer as they used to, and it's all the PGC's fault. They never consider that the area can't handle the population that it used to be able to. It's like they feel the same 150 deer they used to see in a field spotting at night should all huddle together in the now 40 acres of cover compared to the 400 acres of cover that used to be there. Like I said in my previous post, I don't care if they shoot a younger/smaller legal buck. I really don't care if they get a button for an alloted doe tag. I just find it annoying when they pontificate on the perceived shortcomings of an agency which is doing a very respectable job at improving the overall health of the deer herd (PGC states unequivocally that it does not manage for trophy deer, only a better age dispersment in the herd).


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Csquared said:


> I guess I would fall into the category of a "trophy hunter", but I don't feel like I've lost anything? :secret:
> 
> Maybe that's because I'm also a meat hunter.......I just don't confuse the two :smile:
> 
> Seriously though, there is no greater "trophy" than a doe watching a fawn or two. I swear she can hear you blink. If you can consistently score on mature does the buck pursuing those does should be no problem at all


I agree, but usually, I'll take the yearling, as I feel that the mature doe will need to help one, or more of the offspring survive the winter. Just my preference though.


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Wow I have taken some good bucks in the past (looking at em on my wall now) I have also shot a few basket racks I have taken butt'n bucks and does. All with archery I hate gun season. I have had a blast with every deer I have taken. Just finished three weeks off still holding my buck tag. Turned down a few basket racks Gun starts in three days now I dont care Button . doe. basket rack if i can get my wood arrow in a small buck in the next two days it will be fun. PS I HATE COMPOUND SHOOTERS THAT NEED SIGHTS< STABILIZERS< RANGE FINDERS< SCENTLOK< CARBON ARROWS< RAGE HEADS TRAIL CAMS < GPS< QUADS< ETC ETC Thats for the comment that some people dont have the skill and shoot small bucks !!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL LOL You guys are funny. Regards I am having a blast with my longbow hunting long hours and still shooting with my pulley popper mechanical arrow launcher rage shooting buddies.


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

*Shane*

This one tasted great. AND WE HAD A BLAST WITH A GUN THOUGH. He will be bowhunting next year with me. We will try and shoot a button for ya


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I've said it a dozen times but each person hunts for thier own reasons. If one decides he/she would like to take a younger deer who am I to argue? The only thing we can control as hunters is our own choices. I see absolutely nothing wrong with someone taking an animal that they want to take as long as it falls within the laws of the land. I'd say 75% of the general hunters take anything they see. Leave the game management to the game managers. Again, if you have an opinion let it be heard where it counts and that is with the game managers/law makers in your area.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

feathermax ed said:


> well maybe not everybody only hunts for trophy bucks osme of us eat our deer


That's just silly, I eat every deer I shoot. Yes, big bucks are made of meat too:smile:

They just have a lot more of it attached to their bones.


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

my hemroids are getting much worse from trophy hunting deer - still sitting, nothing nice came in yet itchhy itchhy scratchy scratchy


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Make It Happen said:


> my hemroids are getting much worse from trophy hunting deer - still sitting, nothing nice came in yet itchhy itchhy scratchy scratchy


TMI............:chortle:


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

21 pages in 7 days...and on the first page it was guessed it would only go 5...ha!!!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Make It Happen said:


> my hemroids are getting much worse from trophy hunting deer - still sitting, nothing nice came in yet itchhy itchhy scratchy scratchy


Don't post pics.


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## JonathanGlass (Mar 1, 2009)

So since I shot a 3 pointer which I thought was a spike this year for my first buck and bow kill you hate me too? Think again


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

I guess the op hates me. I can't shoot spikes since PA has antler restrictions, but I did shoot a button during the rifle season. That was after passing on buttons all archery season. I watched 10 deer walk by because I thought there was a buck in the pines, but it was down to two deer and I took the first one that gave me a shot. That was also on the last day of rifle. I was mad I shot a button, but he sure does taste good!

I say hunt and kill what makes you happy!


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## Duke Cummings (Nov 22, 2010)

G20 said:


> I'm gonna say 5 pages at least.


wrong, lol


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

Make It Happen said:


> my hemroids are getting much worse from trophy hunting deer - still sitting, nothing nice came in yet itchhy itchhy scratchy scratchy


I'll know which stand is yours when I see it TMI it'll be the one with a donut cushion....:smile:


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## Stykbow1 (Jul 21, 2006)

ozzz said:


> A baby deer is still a deer, right you are. A large mature buck is also a deer. A deer that will likely use more resources than a smaller deer. Taking a mature buck does as much for the population as taking a small buck does. I understand not everyone has these choices to make. I am not advocating never ever killing any small bucks. I am advocating making sound management decisions through careful observation.


OZZZ I'd have to agree that a mature deer would require more resources or food on a daily basis than a button or spike but in my area the smaller deer probably out number the mature deer especially bucks so it would probably be a close call. I'm also not advocating never letting a small deer walk nor that anyone has to shoot the first deer they see that's personal choice and I really think that all deer taken by bowhunters can be considered a trophy. I just feel there are bigger concerns than the size of what someone shoots.

From what I've read and heard talking to people involved with deer hunting in general loss of habitat and non hunter apathy will be the nail in the hunters coffin not fellow hunters and what they take in the field. I know first hand here in NJ that we lose more land each year to developers than some of our mid-west and western counterparts but believe me it's heading their way too. As the deer are pushed into ever smaller areas other states may be forced to be much more aggressive population control measures, just like we have here in NJ. We are constantly being reminded that we are the states best tool for reducing and controlling the states deer herd.

The other thing is non hunter apathy which basically means that people who don't hunt will fail to support us because it is of no consequence to them if hunting is allowed or not. Unfortunately, every year our numbers fall off and the young hunters are not replacing the ones we are losing fast enough to make a difference. I've heard some say that in as little as ten years we may get to a point where ant-hunters will be able to make a big push to abolish all hunting and we won't be able to stand against them without the support of those that don't hunt but aren't opposed to it either. The problem especially for those who advocate sport or trophy hunting is that the non hunting sector felt that only sustenance hunting was acceptable and sport hunting was unfair and cruel. That is why I personally feel that we need to be more concerned with preserving this sport and tradition rather than worried about what deer other hunters are taking when they go hunting. If that happens we all lose and so do the deer and other animals.

Good Hunting, Roger


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Stykbow1 said:


> OZZZ I'd have to agree that a mature deer would require more resources or food on a daily basis than a button or spike but in my area the smaller deer probably out number the mature deer especially bucks so it would probably be a close call. I'm also not advocating never letting a small deer walk nor that anyone has to shoot the first deer they see that's personal choice and I really think that all deer taken by bowhunters can be considered a trophy. I just feel there are bigger concerns than the size of what someone shoots.
> 
> From what I've read and heard talking to people involved with deer hunting in general loss of habitat and non hunter apathy will be the nail in the hunters coffin not fellow hunters and what they take in the field. I know first hand here in NJ that we lose more land each year to developers than some of our mid-west and western counterparts but believe me it's heading their way too. As the deer are pushed into ever smaller areas other states may be forced to be much more aggressive population control measures, just like we have here in NJ. We are constantly being reminded that we are the states best tool for reducing and controlling the states deer herd.
> 
> ...


Good post but because young deer are growing at such a fast rate and the motabilizum of young deer is much like that of human children the require as much or more quality food as the oldest largets bucks. Think about it every time you see a youn deer at ease its eating it hase something in its mouth


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## Milhouse (Jan 18, 2003)

I haven't read one post on this thread, but you've certainly gotten some mileage out of it.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Milhouse said:


> I haven't read one post on this thread, but you've certainly gotten some mileage out of it.


If you would like to enjoy the full effect of this thread without reading in two easy steps.........

1. Step away from your computer...
2. Punch yourself squarely between the legs.....

You are welcome......:smile:


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

Big Country said:


> If you would like to enjoy the full effect of this thread without reading in two easy steps.........
> 
> 1. Step away from your computer...
> 2. Punch yourself squarely between the legs.....
> ...


Now that's funny right there. Good advice but funny.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

you really only need to read the first page. We have been arguing the same stuff for 21 pages and none of us have budged on our stance. Still fun hearing from other hunters standpoints on the subject though


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Good post but because young deer are growing at such a fast rate and the* motabilizum *of young deer is much like that of human children the require as much or more quality food as the oldest largets bucks. Think about it every time you see a youn deer at ease its eating it hase something in its mouth


What?


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Stykbow1 said:


> OZZZ I'd have to agree that a *mature deer would require more resources or food on a daily basis than a button or spike but in my area the smaller deer probably out number the mature deer especially bucks so it would probably be a close call.* I'm also not advocating never letting a small deer walk nor that anyone has to shoot the first deer they see that's personal choice and I really think that all deer taken by bowhunters can be considered a trophy. I just feel there are bigger concerns than the size of what someone shoots.
> 
> *From what I've read and heard talking to people involved with deer hunting in general loss of habitat and non hunter apathy will be the nail in the hunters coffin not fellow hunters and what they take in the field. * I know first hand here in NJ that we lose more land each year to developers than some of our mid-west and western counterparts but believe me it's heading their way too. As the deer are pushed into ever smaller areas other states may be forced to be much more aggressive population control measures, just like we have here in NJ. We are constantly being reminded that we are the states best tool for reducing and controlling the states deer herd.
> 
> ...


Good post Roger.

Young deer outnumber other deer of older ages? Maybe because the deer (especially bucks) are not able to survive very long? I agree with you that certainly any whitetail taken with a bow is a trophy but I also think there are benefits to collectively as hunters working together and letting the herd even out a little bit. and this isnt all "horn porn" but maybe then those who maybe dont see such bigger deer would start to AND the age structure of the herd would be more even? 

I agree with you on this 100% especially in the long term. Habitat reduction is probably the #1 factor reducing deer opportunities in general. Its sad but I think the fact of the matter is there isnt much that can be done about this. Its as simple as MORE PEOPLE. People require space and the more of us there are the less habitat the deer have. Its sad but very true.

Please dont get me wrong. I am in no way advocating strictly trophy hunting. I like planting trees as much as I like hunting mature bucks. I like planting food plots as much as I like hunting mature bucks. I like taking does as much as I like hunting mature bucks. I like doing whatever I can to preserve our bow hunting heritage just as much as I like hunitng mature bucks. Hunting huge antlers is definitely not the end all be all for me but sure, its an exciting part of the bigger picture. There are aspects to hunting just as important if not more important than chasing big antlers but its all part of the same big picture.


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## SILVERFOX3 (Oct 7, 2010)

I would love to see a limit here in upstate NY,no spikes,one more year makes a very big difference with antlers.I still would like jr. hunters to get one if that's all that's around,get them involved,it will be alot of fun.


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> A 1.5 year old buck here will almost always out weigh any doe the Field dress between 145 and 165 # easily I know they weigh in bucks at our local check stations. Not a good argument on your point around this part of the Midwest at all.


Depends on if you are trying to maintain and build up buck populations or not.......that was my point.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

RNT said:


> Depends on if you are trying to maintain and build up buck populations or not.......that was my point.


Funny you say maintain in your comment .We were in a meeting with our Chief Biologist and after about an hour of in depth deer talk He said that the State of Indiana is now moving into a "maintenance phase " of deer management as it appears our deer herd is relatively stable and the annual take is almost exactly 50/50 and this year we took just a few more doe than bucks of all ages.


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## HISCRAMENESS (Sep 27, 2010)

I got my first bowkill yesterday........button buck. I wanted to get my first one down and he was it. Sorry to the OP.


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## tldga3 (Sep 8, 2005)

get off your high horse



T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


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## tooours (Apr 19, 2008)

I wanted to be in here too.


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## buckeyboy (Feb 6, 2007)

what a bunch of twits grow up


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

How about another angle to ponder. I haven't found any writings from any biologist that argues a healthy deer herd does not benefit by targeting mature does. And if hunters don't discipline themselves to do enough of that the biologists often times step in and do it for us. Many areas have some sort of antler restrictions, which obviously does not affect the way I hunt, but consider this. At least one state area near me adopted a program that mandates the tagging of a doe BEFORE you can kill *ANY* buck. And that sucks! Imagine patterning a big buck and having him under your stand 10 minutes after shooting time on opening day but having to let him walk because you hadn't had time yet to tag a doe. It happened to a co-worker on a 160 class buck. So_ PLEASE_ shoot more does :cheers:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> So PLEASE shoot more does


But only in areas that need it.
Shooting more does is not a universal, good anytime management program.
Herd needs to fit the habitat.


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## jace (Jul 16, 2005)

this is a really dumb thread, had to put my 2cents in, Im gonna shoot the first deer i see next time, just cause i can


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

Steve, I would love to hear of any areas where does are in any way protected more than bucks. I realize deer aren't as concentrated everywhere exactly like they are here in IL but I would like to hear of any place where the biologists would prefer you to shoot a young buck over a mature doe. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just can't imagine any herd with a huntable population that would be the exception to the rule.


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## Jellymon (Jun 19, 2010)

QDM. Quality Deer Managment

I MANAGED to get QUALITY meat from my DOE:banana:.


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


You should get some sleep. :wink:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Csquared said:


> Steve, I would love to hear of any areas where does are in any way protected more than bucks. I realize deer aren't as concentrated everywhere exactly like they are here in IL but I would like to hear of any place where the biologists would prefer you to shoot a young buck over a mature doe. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just can't imagine any herd with a huntable population that would be the exception to the rule.


Never said anything about areas where biologists said shoot a young buck instead of a doe. Just that not all areas need more does shot.
Doe kill is regulated in most areas - not unlimited.


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## mdjohns300 (Dec 31, 2003)

I just couldn't bring myself to read this whole thread. But, since the OP is from NY, and I hunt NY, I would just like to say, I wouldn't give a crap what kind of buck people shoot if NY would just allow only one buck per year like many other states. Shoot what you want, be happy with it, but realize you are done buck hunting at that point.


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> Never said anything about areas where biologists said shoot a young buck instead of a doe. Just that not all areas need more does shot.
> Doe kill is regulated in most areas - not unlimited.


My point was to shoot does_ INSTEAD_ of small bucks. And I would argue most areas _DO_ need more does taken because of the tendency of the majority of hunters to shoot bucks...as evidenced by this thread.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Argue all you want - post facts and I'll listen.
Post opinion based on what you see in your backyard and I don't.


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

i hunt ny too i do not have a problem with 2 buck rules, 1 problem is little buck killers who shot them after they have been run off buy does,and are travelin around dumb to the ways of makeing it, come on brown its down your not hunting its killing. if thats all i could get- i will give up hunting try fishing. those little pug face button buck are not worth 75$ - 100$ to be processed. here in ny hunters cry no deer,does or bucks why they kill off must of the herd in that woulds fill every tag they get sometimes more than once. it take a few years for them to build up again...


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> Post opinion based on what you see in your backyard and I don't


You're listening :wink2:

And I asked _you_ for info on areas where killing does over small bucks would *NOT* be recommended. Is any forthcoming? I'd be happy to post links to studies advocating doe harvest, but I might not know when to stop!:smile:
Where's your backyard? Let's see if we can find anything specific to your area.


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## jonathanjt (Sep 3, 2008)

Since all I do 365 is think about big deer, it is frustrating to see a small buck or button buck in the back of a pick-up truck. Although I would probably feel worse if it was a three year old buck! In my opinion, deer are 4 or 5 year investments! At the end of the day they are just animals, its not the end of the world. If someone wants to shoot a small deer, go ahead. I may not want to own all of the land in the world, but definitely want all that borders mine! LOL


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Csquared said:


> You're listening :wink2:
> 
> And I asked _you_ for info on areas where killing does over small bucks would *NOT* be recommended. Is any forthcoming? I'd be happy to post links to studies advocating doe harvest, but I might not know when to stop!:smile:
> Where's your backyard? Let's see if we can find anything specific to your area.


I will tell you where it is absalutely not allowed in Indiana .No goes killing in gun season what so ever .Thet is the state run Fish and wildelife areas and State Resiviore properties. The y allow only the shooting of bucks with antleers in deer gun season here period and that means very very very few does go out in archery or M/L seasons on them you could count them on both hands most times per year .


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for the info, nuke. What about private land? Are all resident tags either sex?


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

A quick look found 2008 numbers for IN, and your state harvested approximately 50% more does than bucks, and bonus antlerless only tags were available for every county, and in some cases you could take up to 8 extra does. Has this practice changed since 2008?


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## rooster4l (Oct 16, 2007)

i would love for all you let them grow hunters to come hunt all your life with me in Louisiana. Plus only on public land that you can not feed on and they do not plant on. Plus its a big swamp and if you see 10 deer a year you had a great year. then tell me after you have been walking over a mile in chest deep water to hunt. you finally see a deer after 20 days of ZERO deer. oK you will let him grow my butt, its easy on your farm or in places that the land will let you have lots of deer. Oh and we have lots of deer, but come show them to me in the places we hunt. if you can see 20 yards you need to take the rifle its a long shot! do what you will but me I am a HUNTER.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

rooster4l said:


> i would love for all you let them grow hunters to come hunt all your life with me in Louisiana. Plus only on public land that you can not feed on and they do not plant on. Plus its a big swamp and if you see 10 deer a year you had a great year. then tell me after you have been walking over a mile in chest deep water to hunt. you finally see a deer after 20 days of ZERO deer. oK you will let him grow my butt, its easy on your farm or in places that the land will let you have lots of deer. Oh and we have lots of deer, but come show them to me in the places we hunt. if you can see 20 yards you need to take the rifle its a long shot! do what you will but me I am a HUNTER.


You forgot to mention the Cottonmouth's....

Have a good season.


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

rooster4l said:


> i would love for all you let them grow hunters to come hunt all your life with me in Louisiana. Plus only on public land that you can not feed on and they do not plant on. Plus its a big swamp and if you see 10 deer a year you had a great year. then tell me after you have been walking over a mile in chest deep water to hunt. you finally see a deer after 20 days of ZERO deer. oK you will let him grow my butt, its easy on your farm or in places that the land will let you have lots of deer. Oh and we have lots of deer, but come show them to me in the places we hunt. if you can see 20 yards you need to take the rifle its a long shot! do what you will but me I am a HUNTER.


Sounds like tough hunting in your state. My guess would be that there are lots of nice bucks in those swamps because not many hunters would go through what you do to get a deer. Matter of fact, I don't know any hunters that would even get in chest deep water let alone walk a mile in it.


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Funny you say maintain in your comment .We were in a meeting with our Chief Biologist and after about an hour of in depth deer talk He said that the State of Indiana is now moving into a "maintenance phase " of deer management as it appears our deer herd is relatively stable and the annual take is almost exactly 50/50 and this year we took just a few more doe than bucks of all ages.


You guys definitely have it different than around here. We have seen an increase in bucks this year only do to the fact hunting last year was horrible do to the weather. Here in Nebraska we also have rifle season right smack in the middle of the rut and in most areas it has made seeing a buck very difficult however, and it is what I have done for the past 18 years, we have antlerless only tags to knock down the population of does. I will have to see what ratio our state did.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Csquared said:


> How about another angle to ponder. I haven't found any writings from any biologist that argues a healthy deer herd does not benefit by targeting mature does. And if hunters don't discipline themselves to do enough of that the biologists often times step in and do it for us. Many areas have some sort of antler restrictions, which obviously does not affect the way I hunt, but consider this. At least one state area near me adopted a program that mandates the tagging of a doe BEFORE you can kill *ANY* buck. And that sucks! Imagine patterning a big buck and having him under your stand 10 minutes after shooting time on opening day but having to let him walk because you hadn't had time yet to tag a doe. It happened to a co-worker on a 160 class buck. So_ PLEASE_ shoot more does :cheers:


Yea, sometimes doing something just because you can isn't always the best policy. More people need to focus on doing the right thing.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Csquared said:


> Thanks for the info, nuke. What about private land? Are all resident tags either sex?


No all tags are not either sex you must have a buck gun tag and actually the button bucks also round out the antler less number as the antlerless tags are good for either and th count shows this in the general season summery page . So we hover right at 50/ 50 or slightly either way most years and yes there are plenty of bonus tags in every county.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

RNT said:


> You guys definitely have it different than around here. We have seen an increase in bucks this year only do to the fact hunting last year was horrible do to the weather. Here in Nebraska we also have rifle season right smack in the middle of the rut and in most areas it has made seeing a buck very difficult however, and it is what I have done for the past 18 years, we have antlerless only tags to knock down the population of does. I will have to see what ratio our state did.


Actually our gun season falls right in line with the rut as well its because the does move more durring the rut as well as the bucks and gun season is the only real herd control tool we have if you call 130,000 give take control of a herd that has around 600,000 or so deer.Shear numbers of deer are why we have so many bucks the OBR is actually a nonissue when bow hunters who dobble dipped were taking only 3000- 3500 bucks with a gun as well. That number was insignificant when you look at total harvest and the deer herd size.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Actually our gun season falls right in line with the rut as well its because the does move more durring the rut as well as the bucks and gun season is the only real herd control tool we have if you call 130,000 give take control of a herd that has around 600,000 or so deer.Shear numbers of deer are why we have so many bucks the OBR is actually a nonissue when bow hunters who dobble dipped were taking only 3000- 3500 bucks with a gun as well. That number was insignificant when you look at total harvest and the deer herd size.


Here is a link to better breakdowns it shown that the buttonbucks are considered antlerless and that they number right around 13000 to 15,000 anually in total all seasons take


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

I dont hate hunters who shoot button bucks like the OP says ,but I do hate threads like this. If it's legal then dont worry what others are doing and mind your own business.


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## bowsrfriends (Jun 15, 2010)

I don't like shooting buttons but I think if you REALLY need the meat or you are a beginning hunter it should be ok. Also hate is a very strong word, but I do agree you should pass them up after your first couple or unless you really need some meat. And yes I see my avitar is a spike lol it was my first buck.


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## Deadeye_Hoyt (Aug 4, 2010)

Cornfed said:


> Then why EVER shoot anything with antlers ?!? If ya can't eat 'em, why waste 'em.... right ?!?


Hey now, those antlers keep me in business. Now, pass me some of that popcorn, would ya?


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## hoytman63 (Oct 8, 2010)

I only hate people who hate people that shoot button bucks and spikes ( kill what you want as long as it's legal )


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## meatmissle (Mar 13, 2009)

Sorry, just dont agree with you. I dont shoot button bucks but thats my choice. If someone wants to shoot a buton buck let em have at it! I think alot of people have gotten away from the real aspect of hunting and focus to much on horns, horns, horns! I got caught up in the "hunting for the big one" mentality that goes on alot now a days and hearing people say " think what it woud have been next year" for the last two years. Last year I got to thinking about it and I realized something , I told my wife " you know, we've took the fun out of hunting". We got so caught up in letting deer walk and always hunting for the big one that we didnt realize how much pressure we put on ourselves that it got to the point that hunting wasnt fun anymore! So this year we went back to the old days! First of all we love deer meat so we've hunted and shot what we wanted to and we have had a blast! Hunting is about having fun with family, friends and being in the outdoors and all the experiences that go along with it! Deer hunting has become a business and a money racket and to much is put on getting a big one. Loosen up a little and have fun hunting cause we may not be here next season to see what that buck would have been that we let walk this year!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Heres one for all the haters. Shot it this morning with my M.L.
View attachment 944495


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

poorman said:


> Heres one for all the haters. Shot it this morning with my M.L.
> View attachment 944495


Someone get the dog collar!!!!!!!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

HAHA.... No collar needed. It's not walking anywhere.


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## ktyre (Dec 2, 2008)

i dont think a spike or button buck will ever get to big so i shoot every spike i see to get them out of the heard.


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/...guest_columnist&page=c_col_guest_spike_debate


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

ktyre said:


> *i dont think a spike or button buck will ever get to big* so i shoot every spike i see to get them out of the heard.


The only way that's true is if they're already dead.


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

ktyre said:


> i dont think a spike or button buck will ever get to big so i shoot every spike i see to get them out of the heard.


you surely aren't being serious are you?


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## bullfries (Jan 11, 2008)

poorman said:


> Heres one for all the haters. Shot it this morning with my M.L.
> View attachment 944495


Cute dog whats his name?




J/K. Congrats on the kill. Tomorrows trophy today!!!


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## archery j (Jun 12, 2010)

I don't hate anyone for what type of deer they shoot. I personally don't shoot spikes or button bucks however that's my choice and my decision. For me if we are ethical, and proud of what we kill go for it...


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Next time you button and spike killers come across us evil trophy hunters you should thank us. If most of us dont pass these deer there would be alot less for you guys to shoot. Its very good for the herd when these are left to walk. Over the next years these bucks will get bigger whether you believe it or not. You cant simply kill everything you see its just not right. That stupid spike buck isnt exactly the smartest deer in the woods. Just think how low the numbers of bucks would be if we all just killed every deer we see. I assure you the numbers would diminish after just a few years. Mother nature has a way of controlling the the size of it without us having to do it. So the we got to keep it in check thing doesnt fly with most true hunters. Huntings not about the kill, its about the hunt. Are you really successful when you kill a deer that doesnt have a clue what hes doing? I sure wouldnt


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

again with the big pile of steaming altruistic crap


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## liveatfulldraw (Aug 23, 2010)

yeah, i agree. Need to let the smaller ones go. they'll be bigger next year!


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

Twenty three pages?????


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

flyin2jz said:


> Next time you button and spike killers come across us evil trophy hunters you should thank us. If most of us dont pass these deer there would be alot less for you guys to shoot. Its very good for the herd when these are left to walk. Over the next years these bucks will get bigger whether you believe it or not. You cant simply kill everything you see its just not right. That stupid spike buck isnt exactly the smartest deer in the woods. Just think how low the numbers of bucks would be if we all just killed every deer we see. I assure you the numbers would diminish after just a few years. Mother nature has a way of controlling the the size of it without us having to do it. So the we got to keep it in check thing doesnt fly with most true hunters. Huntings not about the kill, its about the hunt. *Are you really successful when you kill a deer that doesnt have a clue what hes doing? I sure wouldnt*


And that big trophy buck that has his nose to the ground trailing a doe....... He's super smart huh? Not! IF it were'nt for the does they were trailing they would have no sense at all during the rut. If hunting is not about the kill then I suggest photography. You may not hunt to kill, but I do. I do enjoy the hunt as well but lets face reality we go into the woods to KILL.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

bullfries said:


> Cute dog whats his name?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I call him "Burger".


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## CrunchTime (Mar 22, 2009)

Don't know if someone made this comment yet but I'm not reading all 23 pages.
In this area I live most spikes (95%) will never be more than an 8 point according to biologists. they are 1.5 years old and will have slower antler development than small 4 points and six points. So that being said if you are managing for trophies, would you rather take the deer out when he is a spike or try to take him out as a 3 or 4 year old when he is alot wiser and maybe even nocturnal. Not to mention he has spread his genes a few time as well.
The buttons are different. I would not shoot a nubbin if you are trophy managing.
4's, 6's, and even small eights as a 1.5 year old are more likely to grow into 10's and up quicker. 
There are exceptions but if your smart you have to play the odds. In this case you have to take out the spikes.
So the answer to the OP"s question is no I don't hate people who shoot spikes but yes I don't like it when people shoot nubbins even if it's for the kids first deer. Kids need to learn edecate sp. even if it's there first deer.


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## Downin Whiteys (Jan 25, 2006)

In before the:lock1: LOL


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

This is better than the Pennsylvania Black Bear tread.! LoL


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

poorman said:


> And that big trophy buck that has his nose to the ground trailing a doe....... He's super smart huh? Not! IF it were'nt for the does they were trailing they would have no sense at all during the rut. If hunting is not about the kill then I suggest photography. You may not hunt to kill, but I do. I do enjoy the hunt as well but lets face reality we go into the woods to KILL.


 Yea i forgot we all kill big bucks during the rut. Nobody does it before or after that...lol


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

CrunchTime said:


> Don't know if someone made this comment yet but I'm not reading all 23 pages.
> In this area I live most spikes (95%) will never be more than an 8 point according to biologists. they are 1.5 years old and will have slower antler development than small 4 points and six points. So that being said if you are managing for trophies, would you rather take the deer out when he is a spike or try to take him out as a 3 or 4 year old when he is alot wiser and maybe even nocturnal. Not to mention he has spread his genes a few time as well.
> The buttons are different. I would not shoot a nubbin if you are trophy managing.
> 4's, 6's, and even small eights as a 1.5 year old are more likely to grow into 10's and up quicker.
> ...


even if the biologists are right. Ill take my chances on them growing to be nice mature deer. They surely have no chance if you kill a goofy 2 horned buck when hes 1.5yrs old. You guys got to keep in mind ive never killed a trophy deer so i may be singing a different tune after that. I just cant see myself or for that matter any of my hunting buddies at 50yrs old with grey hair and beard killing a tiny little deer. I hope im wrong and dont care


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## CrunchTime (Mar 22, 2009)

Good luck and great thread BTW.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

Not me, I tell the women and children have at them.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

flyin2jz said:


> Yea i forgot we all kill big bucks during the rut. Nobody does it before or after that...lol


I understand that big bucks are killed outside of the rut. But the way you talk, they are some kind of magical creature that takes an act of god to kill.


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## smurphy (Feb 22, 2007)

I look at it like its meat. for us meat hunters that's good tender meat. I have shot small does button bucks but nothing with spots, because I never had a chance. I consider myself a member of the kill them young club where are motto is "killing tomorrows trophy's today"


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## John Wayne (Dec 27, 2006)

How in the world can you hate some one for doing something that is legal. Not everyone has teh same dream. I'm sure you do not have mine and i do not want yours.


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I hate the people who drive the roads in the evenings/mornings and shoot deer from their vehicles and leave them laying. 

I'm betting 70% of those whining about this are kids still in school that get every weekend off and what, fall break, winter break, etc...?? When they grow up and get a job, family, etc, and get to hunt 4 or 5 times a season...maybe they'll understand. Or maybe they have access to hundreds of acres of land to hunt at their disposal. Hey do you know what I have? I have 3 tracts of land I can hunt...the biggest tract is 30 acres. The rest are 5-10 acres. Trail cam pics show that it may be a week in between deer passing through those small areas. But it's all I have. I've taken 2 deer in the 130s and a few in the 120s. That is small deer compared to the deer in the mid west but in TN they are trophies and all have came from these little tracts of land.

BTW...a friend of mine killed a spike a couple seasons ago. It had 6 1/2 inch bases and the tines were just 5-6 inches long. It didn't have hardly a tooth left in its head and all we could do was estimate its age at 7+ years old. 

1 more for the road...for the haters


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## LA4024 (Oct 16, 2009)

Well I guess I will be one of the most hated because I just killed a spike last Weds. during WV rifle season. Oh my I killed a spike and even used a rifle to do it, I must be evil. I hunt for the enjoyment of it but also for the kill and to put meat in the freezer. I have deer hunted a total of 5 times this year and all of it has been done with a gun of some sort. With all of the stuff outside of hunting that happens it has really cut down on my time in the woods and I just feel fortunate to be able to have put some meat in the freezer. I killed the spike last week and a small 6pt during KY rifle season and feel good about it. I know for a fact that I will not get to deer hunt anymore until next fall with all the family and life stuff coming up so go on and hate me, but I feel good about it.


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## Q!! (May 3, 2005)

Spikes and button bucks just taste better. I shoot all of em I can.


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## Kelly17 (Nov 30, 2010)

Mathias said:


> Hate's a strong word. I wish they wouldn't but it's outta my control....except on my properties!



I completely agree with this :smile:

I don't HATE them for it, but there isn't anything I can do about it except on the land I hunt.

I DO think it is acceptable though for say a 1st time hunter or a young kid that's just gettin' started. Then it's not about size it's about the experience. If I had it my way we wouldn't shoot anything 2 1/2 or younger at least. That's just my preference. I got a 4 1/2 year old buck with my bow this year...my first ever! Then I also got a 5 1/2 year old buck with my rifle, I am into maturity and of course gun size with my gun LOL. Maybe next year I will care more about size for taking a buck with my bow :wink:


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## Bowhuntertim (Jun 4, 2006)

I don't remember whether I read it or saw it on tv but I recall seeing a study done where they followed a spike through it's whole life and the biggest rack it grew at I believe 6.5 years old was 169" and change. So saying they won't turn into anything is completely a myth. With that said, however, if it's legal to kill in your area and you want to kill it, by all means do so. You paid your state for your tag which grants you the privilege to kill any legal deer you wish and you have every right to exercise that privilege in whatever way you choose.


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## Kelly17 (Nov 30, 2010)

beast said:


> not me, i tell the women and children have at them.


seriously?


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

beast said:


> Not me, I tell the women and children have at them.


Thanks, I will kill them and you and your ego can gut and drag while you are waiting on the big guys to come through!!


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## reflex shooter (Feb 23, 2004)

I only hate 2 kinds of people.......

People who are intolerant of other people's cultures........and the Dutch.


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## obsessedLSS (Dec 21, 2006)

reflex shooter said:


> I only hate 2 kinds of people.......
> 
> People who are intolerant of other people's cultures........and the Dutch.


"I like goooooooold"


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

drkangel11683 said:


> No, but I'm feeling a strong dislike towards you right now.


Now I am getting looked at by my co-workers for laughing out loud. Thanks for the good laugh!


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

G20 said:


> I'm gonna say 5 pages at least.


HA!!! 24 and counting! Wow.


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## quackshack (Nov 7, 2009)

JC-XT said:


> Uh, no. I hate terrorists. I hate rapists. I hate murderers. I hate drug dealers. But I don't think that I can say that I hate people who don't shoot the kind of deer that* I* think they should shoot.


Well said. If it's legal its dead in my opinion.


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

I cant believe this thread is still going....Hahaha!
I guess the Trophy Hunters are just better hunters than the Meat Hunters from the comments I'm reading here,almost like legends in thier own minds.


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## bowhunter55945 (Mar 3, 2007)

whats the record for the longest thread?


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

bowhunter55945 said:


> whats the record for the longest thread?


LMAO!!! I doubt this one will reach AT Legend status! LOL!


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

Darton01 said:


> I cant believe this thread is still going....Hahaha!
> I guess the from the comments I'm reading here,


You don't believe that,......... seriously ?!? You think a guy that goes out and shoots at the first deer he sees (which most of the time ends up being a 18 month old basket rack!) is a "good hunter" ??? LMAO!!! Realize that all 3 of my Kids have been able to do that since they were 8 years old !!! LOL!!!


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## jonathanjt (Sep 3, 2008)

I find it really funny, when the people that shoot button bucks and spikes complain about not having big deer on their farm!


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

i guess if u set in a tree all day,they all look big,an you have to bring something home to 1/2 justify there hunting $$$ spent, to there wife, a little one is ok. hey if i do not own the land what the hel shoot them. mount that button buck,look good over fireplace.it was for the meat all 30lbs of it..


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

the last 4 posts sum up how i feel also...nice job guys. It takes alot less time and talent to kill a small one thats for sure. I dont think a rational thinking person would deny this.


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## MrShake (Apr 20, 2009)

Cornfed said:


> You don't believe that,......... seriously ?!? You think a guy that goes out and shoots at the first deer he sees (which most of the time ends up being a 18 month old basket rack!) is a "good hunter" ??? LMAO!!! Realize that all 3 of my Kids have been able to do that since they were 8 years old !!! LOL!!!


Yep, thats what I would say..

Good Hunter = Able to harvest a deer

I shot a 2.5 y/o during the first gun season... I consider myself a good hunter this year.


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

poorman said:


> And that big trophy buck that has his nose to the ground trailing a doe....... He's super smart huh? Not! IF it were'nt for the does they were trailing they would have no sense at all during the rut. If hunting is not about the kill then I suggest photography. You may not hunt to kill, but I do. I do enjoy the hunt as well but lets face reality we go into the woods to KILL.


If its so easy to kill that "big trophy buck with his nose to the ground trailing doe" then you must have dozens of bucks on the wall. it does not matter what anyone on here says if you kill spikes or button bucks you either A) are killing for meat or B) you don't have enough patience or will power to let it grow. Either way is fine but don't pretend your a better hunter because you kill more.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

seems there are more "Bambi" killers that look down they're noes at trophy hunters, than the other way around.My thoughts are if you really happy with your choices ,good for you,but the way some of you defend your positions I'm not so sure If you happy with your desion to shot a small deer.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

buckeye 12 ring said:


> If its so easy to kill that "big trophy buck with his nose to the ground trailing doe" then you must have dozens of bucks on the wall. it does not matter what anyone on here says if you kill spikes or button bucks you either A) are killing for meat or B) you don't have enough patience or will power to let it grow. Either way is fine but don't pretend your a better hunter because you kill more.


Buckeye..... I've never claimed to be a better hunter than anyone. And I dont pretend to be something I'm not. I have a couple of nice ones on the wall but that isnt the point. I enjoy hunting and killing deer. It doesnt matter to me if its a giant or not. If you and others want to wait for the big one, I say more power to you. Thats your thing. I and others on the other hand prefer not to wait. 

I am not saying one way is better than the other. I am just saying everyone has the right to make there own choice.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

beast said:


> seems there are more "Bambi" killers that look down they're noes at trophy hunters, than the other way around.My thoughts are if you really happy with your choices ,good for you,but the way some of you defend your positions I'm not so sure If you happy with your desion to shot a small deer.


I am happy with every deer I have ever killed. I have pictures of every single one and will never apologize for any of them.


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## Bagrizz (Jan 22, 2010)

Personally i dont shoot them anymore, but dont frown upon anyone who dose. a trophy in my opinion is in the eye of the one beholder. i have 2 children who are not quite old enough to hunt yet but when they are and are hunting with me if they want a spike then i'll be more than happy to let them harvest one. That in my opinion is the way to get our future hunters.


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## Q!! (May 3, 2005)

beast said:


> seems there are more "Bambi" killers that look down they're noes at trophy hunters, than the other way around.My thoughts are if you really happy with your choices ,good for you,but the way some of you defend your positions I'm not so sure If you happy with your desion to shot a small deer.


Bambi killers rule. Down with the brown baby. If it's breathin it's old enough to get shot. I see spots, and they look yummy.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

poorman said:


> Please tell me what difference it makes to you if I shoot a fawn or a mature deer?
> 
> You dont live in my state.
> You dont hunt my area.
> ...


I get it, its you who doesn't,If you have read any of my post you would of seen, I have no control of what you shoot, or how you hunt.I just stated a fact on what upsets allot of hunters,not just trophy hunters. If you think that shooting a fawn is a great feat,go for it, knock yourself out.I myself have done it in the *past*, and I still let the kids that just started hunting to take what they want.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

Shouldernuke! said:


> The problem is they never will get it they are like greedy little children you can not reason with who believe that all the other little kids toys belong to them and if the other kids do not play the game they want them to they take their ball and run to Mommy to make those bad other kids play what they want and a good parent tells them no now go play well with the others or you are going to get a spanking.See what I mean they were never told no a kids and it shows Mommy always spoiled little JR> They can not share anything unless its is their rules.


thats good humor right there.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

beast said:


> I get it, its you who doesn't,If you have read any of my post you would of seen, I have no control of what you shoot, or how you hunt.I just stated a fact on what upsets allot of hunters,not just trophy hunters. If you think that shooting a fawn is a great feat,go for it, knock yourself out.I myself have done it in the *past*, and I still let the kids that just started hunting to take what they want.


Not allot of hunters just a given few and I will start a poll to see.


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## tuckerdog (Sep 28, 2010)

late in the season... if its brown it's down... with the exception of a few select


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Shouldernuke! said:


> The problem is they never will get it they are like greedy little children you can not reason with who believe that all the other little kids toys belong to them and if the other kids do not play the game they want them to they take their ball and run to Mommy to make those bad other kids play what they want and a good parent tells them no now go play well with the others or you are going to get a spanking.See what I mean they were never told no a kids and it shows Mommy always spoiled little JR> They can not share anything unless its is their rules.


Thats what aggrevates me the most. It has absolutley nothing to do with them. How I hunt is my business, unless I am on their land. Otherwise.........They need to Mind their own business!


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## passinthrough12 (Mar 11, 2009)

Wow! This thread is STILL going.
Who else doesnt care what people shoot.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

beast said:


> I get it, its you who doesn't,If you have read any of my post you would of seen, I have no control of what you shoot, or how you hunt.I just stated a fact on what upsets allot of hunters,not just trophy hunters. If you think that shooting a fawn is a great feat,go for it, knock yourself out.I myself have done it in the *past*, and I still let the kids that just started hunting to take what they want.


Then I apologize. And for the record I never said shooting a fawn was a great feat. I just said that it was my choice.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

poorman said:


> I would also bet that if you have the same ego in person as you do on here, there are not to many "meat hunters" that would even hunt with you.


Nope, I have to admit that I don't hunt with any starving hillbillies or any rednecked wankers that would EVER consider throwing arrows at half the deer mentioned here! In my region, you shoot a fawn or a yearling Buck.... you better be a kid or a newbie, because most folks I know don't have a sense of humor about it! It takes neighbors working TOGTHER to make a good hunting region and one grooup of idiot is to many. So my true definition of "meat hunter", from what I've seen, really does mean a guy that just can't really consistetnly get on deer enough to be lethal. You know the type...... he's the guy standing in the Shop the week before the season lookin' for what b-heads and arrows he's gonna shoot this year. You know the type..... the guy that digs his bow out of the closet a couple weeks before the season and if he can hit a target 3 out of 5 times he calls it "good enough". Now why is it that these are the SAME guys that say "I'm a meat hunter" ?!? Riddle me that, Batman ?!?


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

beast said:


> I don't think anyone gets whipped up over shooting a old doe, Its the fawns these great white meat hunters are shooting that irritates most hunters, and then the meat hunters label us as trophy hunters.


That's not what I meant.....why don't trophy hunters consider the old matriarchal doe a trophy. I meant getting whipped up/excited about a TROPHY doe. Why don't the TV guys hunt the old does. They are harder to get than some dumb buck sniffin' butt during the rut.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

I think also that just because you pass on small bucks or fawns, doesn't necessary make you a trophy hunter.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

redruff said:


> That's not what I meant.....why don't trophy hunters consider the old matriarchal doe a trophy. I meant getting whipped up/excited about a TROPHY doe. Why don't the TV guys hunt the old does. They are harder to get than some dumb buck sniffin' butt during the rut.


some shows do, but it doesn't make good tv for ratings, proper herd management you want to cull out the older does that may not cycle during breeding season, also you my want to cull out older does in general to keep proper herd balance. and I agree with you, a old doe that survived several hunting season while protecting fawn, can be a challenge.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

redruff said:


> That's not what I meant.....why don't trophy hunters consider the old matriarchal doe a trophy. I meant getting whipped up/excited about a TROPHY doe. Why don't the TV guys hunt the old does. They are harder to get than some dumb buck sniffin' butt during the rut.


I don't think anyone would dispute that any MATURE deer isn't a TROPHY!!! I certainly think they are. 

To answer your question as to why TV celebs don't shoot Doe in video..... ARE YOU SERIOUS ?!? Are you lookin' for a DVD called "Monster Does" or "Doe Collectors" ?!? I think the reason is obvious...... it takes BONE to sell.


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## rootju (Sep 22, 2009)

Do I hate them... not a chance! That would be ridiculous... However, I do not agree with shooting BB or Spikes, but like I said before I don't hate people for doing it...


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

But it still doesn't get to the point...culling isn't trophy hunting...why aren't mature does consider trophy hunting.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Cornfed said:


> I don't think anyone would dispute that any MATURE deer isn't a TROPHY!!! I certainly think they are.
> 
> To answer your question as to why TV celebs don't shoot Doe in video..... ARE YOU SERIOUS ?!? Are you lookin' for a DVD called "Monster Does" or "Doe Collectors" ?!? I think the reason is obvious...... it takes BONE to sell.


 That's my point!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> Nope, I have to admit that I don't hunt with any starving hillbillies or any rednecked wankers that would EVER consider throwing arrows at half the deer mentioned here! In my region, you shoot a fawn or a yearling Buck.... you better be a kid or a newbie, because most folks I know don't have a sense of humor about it! It takes neighbors working TOGTHER to make a good hunting region and one grooup of idiot is to many. So my true definition of "meat hunter", from what I've seen, really does mean a guy that just can't really consistetnly get on deer enough to be lethal. You know the type...... he's the guy standing in the Shop the week before the season lookin' for what b-heads and arrows he's gonna shoot this year. You know the type..... the guy that digs his bow out of the closet a couple weeks before the season and if he can hit a target 3 out of 5 times he calls it "good enough". Now why is it that these are the SAME guys that say "I'm a meat hunter" ?!? Riddle me that, Batman ?!?


Well Robin,

I am neither a starving hillbilly or rednecked wanker. And you, with or without knowing it have just proven the point that some of us have been trying to make. I wont argue with you because you obviously cant have a real conversation without getting upset. 

For the record...... I shoot my bow at least 6 months out of the year. I know exactly what broadheads I am going to shoot prior to the season. I can hit the target. Do not lump everyone into one group based off of your impression of a few. 

And by the way..... If I owned land next to you... I would still shoot whatever the heck I wanted to, and you and your group would just have to get over it!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Two sides agreeing to disagree.

http://www.cafepress.com/mentalhealthy


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

redruff said:


> But it still doesn't get to the point...culling isn't trophy hunting...why aren't mature does consider trophy hunting.


I think someone should start a DOE Record Book. We could measure skulls like Bear or Cougar ?!? huh ???


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

poorman said:


> And by the way..... If I owned land next to you... I would still shoot whatever the heck I wanted to, and you and your group would just have to get over it!


No you wouldn't it! Peer pressure would beat you down,..... eventually! I promise ya!


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Cornfed said:


> I think someone should start a DOE Record Book. We could measure skulls like Bear or Cougar ?!? huh ???


works for me


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Cornfed said:


> In my region, you shoot a fawn or a yearling Buck.... you better be a kid or a newbie, because most folks I know don't have a sense of humor about it!


Please fill us in on the apparently dire consequences of shooting a legal deer in "your region" that does not meet the standards of those humorless folks.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Cornfed said:


> No you wouldn't it! Peer pressure would beat you down,..... eventually! I promise ya!


Yeah.... I kinda doubt that. 

I am not saying that at some point in my life I may change the way I hunt. What I am saying is that, it is my choice to make and the only person that can change it is me.


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## chemoshots (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't give a rat's arse what deer a hunter legally harvests unless that hunter is personally involved in a QDM program with me.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

poorman said:


> Yeah.... I kinda doubt that.
> 
> I am not saying that at some point in my life I may change the way I hunt. What I am saying is that, it is my choice to make and the only person that can change it is me.


It is, after I did some research myself, I change the way I hunt, one of the hardest things I had to do was, telling the group I hunted with, that no more deer drives, no more brown its down on MY property.after seeing the results I have been getting over the last 10 yrs, they too are beginning to re evaluate the way they hunt.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Cornfed said:


> Nope, I have to admit that I don't hunt with any starving hillbillies or any rednecked wankers that would EVER consider throwing arrows at half the deer mentioned here! In my region, you shoot a fawn or a yearling Buck.... you better be a kid or a newbie, because most folks I know don't have a sense of humor about it! It takes neighbors working TOGTHER to make a good hunting region and one grooup of idiot is to many. So my true definition of "meat hunter", from what I've seen, really does mean a guy that just can't really consistetnly get on deer enough to be lethal. You know the type...... he's the guy standing in the Shop the week before the season lookin' for what b-heads and arrows he's gonna shoot this year. You know the type..... the guy that digs his bow out of the closet a couple weeks before the season and if he can hit a target 3 out of 5 times he calls it "good enough". Now why is it that these are the SAME guys that say "I'm a meat hunter" ?!? Riddle me that, Batman ?!?


So what are you and the fat neighbors gonna do beat em up, take away their land ,get the pitch forks and torches and burn down their straw hut and tree stands?? Nobody cares what a small gang thinks I can prove it just look at what deer were killed in your county it will have the number of button bucks and fawns on the IDNR stats of year end harvest.So you call others names like ******* wankers and starveing Hillbilies or idiots you would never say that to one persons face I promise you that Internet tuffguy you would likely loose some teeth from most the "men" I know that is sad cornfed! You will never wear anybody down with any peer presure this is not middle school or the local youth club.Most will tell you where to hit the road they do around here.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

beast said:


> It is, after I did some research myself, I change the way I hunt, one of the hardest things I had to do was, telling the group I hunted with, that no more deer drives, no more brown its down on MY property.after seeing the results I have been getting over the last 10 yrs, they too are beginning to re evaluate the way they hunt.


And that is 100% o.k. That is your choice and I respect you for it. Maybe someday I will make the same choice. But again, its my choice as it was your choice. I will be the first to congratulate you when you kill the one you're after.


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## deerman10 (Apr 2, 2010)

:box::box::box::argue::argue::argue:


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

poorman said:


> And that is 100% o.k. That is your choice and I respect you for it. Maybe someday I will make the same choice. But again, its my choice as it was your choice. I will be the first to congratulate you when you kill the one you're after.


always looking for the next one, but right now between myself, grandson, grand daughter and son, we have 7 on the wall.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

beast said:


> always looking for the next one, but right now between myself, grandson, grand daughter and son, we have 7 on the wall.


I hope all of you get another one. Good luck to all of you for the rest of this and future seasons.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Cornfed said:


> No you wouldn't it! Peer pressure would beat you down,..... eventually! I promise ya!


If I'm paying for land and paying the taxes, I sure wouldn't let someone try to intimidate me into hunting the way they think I should hunt.


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

Cornfed said:


> I don't think anyone would dispute that any MATURE deer isn't a TROPHY!!! I certainly think they are.
> 
> To answer your question as to why TV celebs don't shoot Doe in video..... ARE YOU SERIOUS ?!? Are you lookin' for a DVD called "Monster Does" or "Doe Collectors" ?!? I think the reason is obvious...... it takes BONE to sell.


Primos boys shoot doe all the time.......:noidea:


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> If I'm paying for land and paying the taxes, I sure wouldn't let someone try to intimidate me into hunting the way they think I should hunt.


If you owned land, why wouldn't you want it to produce the largest bucks that it capable of through good herd management?


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

beast said:


> If you owned land, why wouldn't you want it to produce the largest bucks that it capable of through good herd management?


I'm not saying I wouldn't. Just saying I would not let someone intimidate me.


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## ILLINOISBOY (Jan 27, 2008)

I hate the WAY bowhunters talk smack on ANY legal deer kill. Any Legal deer kill is a good deer kill. The new age bowhunter who tries to act like a hollywood deer hunter superstar makes me vomit. Killed 86 deer with bow and ALL have been great!!!


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I'm not saying I wouldn't. Just saying I would not let someone intimidate me.


 and once i owned land( after several years) is how I ended up practicing herd management.now the few around who don't manage they're property try to intimidate me! so you see, it goes both ways.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

beast said:


> and once i owned land( after several years) is how I ended up practicing herd management.*now the few around who don't manage they're property try to intimidate me! so you see, it goes both ways*.


Are they succeeding?


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## silentassassin (Jan 22, 2010)

Cornfed said:


> No you wouldn't it! Peer pressure would beat you down,..... eventually! I promise ya!


Peer pressure would get enough people ***** slapped that they would stop talking to me at all, much less talking to me about what I shot.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Are they succeeding?


 no way,just like it wouldn't work on you.


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## DangMang (Jun 26, 2010)

Does anyone else hate pretentious pricks with an inflated opiinion of their hunting prowess?


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Cornfed said:


> Nope, I have to admit that I don't hunt with any starving hillbillies or any rednecked wankers that would EVER consider throwing arrows at half the deer mentioned here! In my region, you shoot a fawn or a yearling Buck.... you better be a kid or a newbie, because most folks I know don't have a sense of humor about it! It takes neighbors working TOGTHER to make a good hunting region and one grooup of idiot is to many. So my true definition of "meat hunter", from what I've seen, really does mean a guy that just can't really consistetnly get on deer enough to be lethal. You know the type...... he's the guy standing in the Shop the week before the season lookin' for what b-heads and arrows he's gonna shoot this year. You know the type..... the guy that digs his bow out of the closet a couple weeks before the season and if he can hit a target 3 out of 5 times he calls it "good enough". Now why is it that these are the SAME guys that say "I'm a meat hunter" ?!? Riddle me that, Batman ?!?


That's funny because if you substitute "I'm a Trophy Hunter" into your little quote there "Robin", those are the people that you are talking about that "I" see here in upstate NY. 

Guys from the city that don't practice a lick until they show up at camp, calling themselves hunters, and judging their success by the size of the racks on the deer that they sometimes get.

I'm a meat hunter, I shoot everyday, I work on my own equipment, I scout, hang stands, practice scent control, play the wind, and do everything I can to be sucessfull at what I do.

I had a huge 10-12 come past one of my stands this year, and I hit an unseen twig, that diverted my arrow.

The next day, in hopes that he wasn't spooked, although I really felt like I was playing last weeks winning lottery numbers by sitting that stand agian, a big bodied spike came through the same setup, and he got whacked.

Nobody I know who will be eating this deer will know which one it was, and nobody cares.:mg:


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Not allot of hunters just a given few and I will start a poll to see.


there is no doubt shoulder that the poll will show more people are brown and downers and meat hunters. You cant post the poll are you against people shooting bucks and spike or for them. That isnt the issue. It should be are you a brown and downer, meat hunter or a Hunter that can pass immature deer. That will still have more people in the brown and downer crew no doubt. This is simply because most people are inherently lazy, lack drive, or patience for success. This is just like the population of our country. There are way more people who pay no taxes or low taxes than there are in the 46% tax bracket. this is because way more people lack all the qualities to acquire wealth. ITs all about your desire, if you could care less about the quality of the animal you are killing then thats your personality most likely in life. In alot of states like in ohio you can only kill one buck. Id say if we could take more than one buck then alot of people may take an immature animal because they know they can still wait on the big one. I love deer meat but im not willing to short myself the joy of hunting a mature animal for my freezer. The only thing i can come up with is that guys that kill spikes lack the desire for a large animal. I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff. if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it. I believe alot of guys just want to fill there tag for fear of failure. Trust me if you tag a 6in spike buck thats not a success you have just shown your entire outlook on life. Just enough to get by


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

redruff said:


> That's not what I meant.....why don't trophy hunters consider the old matriarchal doe a trophy. I meant getting whipped up/excited about a TROPHY doe. Why don't the TV guys hunt the old does. *They are harder to get than some dumb buck sniffin' butt during the rut.*


I totally agree. Especially the yearling bucks. Shoot more old does!!!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

poorman said:


> Yeah.... I kinda doubt that.
> 
> I am not saying that at some point in my life I may change the way I hunt. What I am saying is that, it is my choice to make and the only person that can change it is me.


Here is what would happen if you were Cornfed's neighbor. You would show up at the check station with your yearling buck and see all of your neighbors there with their big old bucks, patting each other on the back and admiring their trophys. After you cut the skull plate off of your little buck and hung his antlers over a rafter in your shed never to be looked at again, you would think to yourself "I wish my buck had big antlers like the ones my neighbors shoot". You would stew about it the entire off season. Then the next year you would hold out for a big one and it would be way more fun and gratifying than sticking the first little buck that walks by. True story.


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## Alexb7109 (Nov 20, 2009)

now, what if a guy goes to shoot a doe, but he then finds out after that its a button buck, and he couldnt see that it was a BB for 60 or so yards away. do you hate him then?


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## fishx65 (Jan 15, 2008)

redruff said:


> That's not what I meant.....why don't trophy hunters consider the old matriarchal doe a trophy. I meant getting whipped up/excited about a TROPHY doe. Why don't the TV guys hunt the old does. They are harder to get than some dumb buck sniffin' butt during the rut.


This is where I think there is a difference between a self proclaimed Trophy Hunter and a hunter who enjoys the challenge of any mature deer. I myself would prefer a giant buck cuz I do think a huge rack on the wall is cool but I also would love to arrow a huge mature doe. The challenge of outsmarting any mature deer is what keeps me in the woods. The reason the TV guys don't show many of their old doe hunts is because everyone likes to see huge racks. I don't think a "Big Doe" hunting show would attract a lot of viewers.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> there is no doubt shoulder that the poll will show more people are brown and downers and meat hunters. You cant post the poll are you against people shooting bucks and spike or for them. That isnt the issue. It should be are you a brown and downer, meat hunter or a Hunter that can pass immature deer. That will still have more people in the brown and downer crew no doubt. This is simply because most people are inherently lazy, lack drive, or patience for success. This is just like the population of our country. There are way more people who pay no taxes or low taxes than there are in the 46% tax bracket. this is because way more people lack all the qualities to acquire wealth. ITs all about your desire, if you could care less about the quality of the animal you are killing then thats your personality most likely in life. In alot of states like in ohio you can only kill one buck. Id say if we could take more than one buck then alot of people may take an immature animal because they know they can still wait on the big one. I love deer meat but im not willing to short myself the joy of hunting a mature animal for my freezer. The only thing i can come up with is that guys that kill spikes lack the desire for a large animal. I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff. if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it. I believe alot of guys just want to fill there tag for fear of failure. Trust me if you tag a 6in spike buck thats not a success you have just shown your entire outlook on life. Just enough to get by


:teeth:


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

This is great! I'm just across the river from Cornfed, and although I don't know of any strongarm tactics to pursuade neighbors to let small bucks walk I can tell you good old fashioned poking and prodding works pretty well. A guy who has always had a hard time resisting small deer finally did it this year, and said he didn't want to get razzed about shootin a pup again. One question to some of the IL boys posting here lately...how many times have you heard a guy say "I got a fawn"? Aren't they always "does" or "small bucks" when they're telling their story? The truth of the matter is not nearly as many deer hunters, around here anyway, are as willing to admit to being a fawn shooter in person as seems to be the case on the internet :smile:
Most of the hunters I come into contact with explain why they killed a fawn almost as a reflex, without being asked. Not saying it's right or wrong...just lots of years of observations.

And Kudos to redruff! I've been saying that for years. A hunter's prowess is not measuerd in total inches of antler collected. I won't consider myself a great bowhunter until I can win more head-to-head encounters with mature does than I lose...and I've got a LONG way to go for that!

But let me again bring up another angle to this. I would guess most of us on here are hunting land that is deeded to someone else. That certainly applies to me, and in my case the owners also are hunters. Hunters with kids who hunt. And the fact they *know* I will not shoot yearlings or any buck before his prime, hence leaving deer that could possibly walk in front of one of the boys, has allowed me virtually unrestricted use of their land. This country is FULL of guys who can walk onto someone else's property and kill a deer or 3, but being a deer hunter first and a deer shooter second (especially a shooter of does), in my way of thinking, is a great way to foster a healthy relationship with the landowners.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Was funny at our local tag station one of the gw were there tagging deer. they come inside and say we have seen alot of small bucks today. Must be alot of new hunters this year. I about died laughing..even they dont get it and thats how they make their money. I wasnt supposed to hear what they were talking about but i have really good hearing..


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## eodusmc (Aug 12, 2009)

I'll tell you what I hate, it's guys that are hate on other hunters because they are puting meat on the table. If you want meat, shoot for meat. If you want horns shoot for horns. don't chastise me for what i do. i think i do enough for this country to say the things i'm saying and if you don't, do some research on Explosive Ordnance Disposal and you tell me different. This forum has almost turned me away because politically correct people and the $#!^ you guys or gals come up with. i try to live my life the right way and typically keep to myself, but T-Rag, with your:" '10 Cracked Out Infinity: Betty 55lbs# 29DL 350grains....283fps HHA Sight XL Slider, QAD HD, Stealth 6" Stab Maxima 250's, Scott Shark, Cat Whiskers RULE!! Treewalker,Millenium M100, Lonewolf Sticks and Slick Tricks BABY" you can kiss my *****. By the way I am a MARINE, and I hunt for meat for my family, and always will. By the way horns will give you indigestion.


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

I dont shoot fawns or any 1 1/2 yr bucks. I have not shot a buck under 3 1/2 since 2003.I have killed some very nice bucks for my area. I have a choice to hunt this way. When I started bowhunting in the mid 80's I shot whatever I got a chance at. As long it was not a fawn. I try my best not to push my standards on nobody. Yes I have tried give advice to others to be patient and to let smaller deer pass to get a shot at mature animals. I do have a problem with people who try to push thier standard of what should be killed down others throats. As we have seen evidence on this thread it really causes allot of resentment toward those that are pushing their standards of what to shoot.I have no use what so ever for overbearing people. If the animal is killed legally thier is no hate from me. I can just about guarantee that most of the hunters that kill mature bucks on a regular bases did not start out that way and If the truth was known they have allot of smaller bucks under thier belts before they found the success of taking mature animals on a regular basis. To hate anyone over a legal deer shows you are person of very low character.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> there is no doubt shoulder that the poll will show more people are brown and downers and meat hunters. You cant post the poll are you against people shooting bucks and spike or for them. That isnt the issue. It should be are you a brown and downer, meat hunter or a Hunter that can pass immature deer. That will still have more people in the brown and downer crew no doubt. This is simply because most people are inherently lazy, lack drive, or patience for success. This is just like the population of our country. There are way more people who pay no taxes or low taxes than there are in the 46% tax bracket. this is because way more people lack all the qualities to acquire wealth. ITs all about your desire, if you could care less about the quality of the animal you are killing then thats your personality most likely in life. In alot of states like in ohio you can only kill one buck. Id say if we could take more than one buck then alot of people may take an immature animal because they know they can still wait on the big one. I love deer meat but im not willing to short myself the joy of hunting a mature animal for my freezer. The only thing i can come up with is that guys that kill spikes lack the desire for a large animal. I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff. if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it. I believe alot of guys just want to fill there tag for fear of failure. Trust me if you tag a 6in spike buck thats not a success you have just shown your entire outlook on life. Just enough to get by


Well the post is up and this is AT dosent everyone shoot giants and it seze nothing about buck to buck size or compairison so go post up two answers are needed on it!


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> there is no doubt shoulder that the poll will show more people are brown and downers and meat hunters. You cant post the poll are you against people shooting bucks and spike or for them. That isnt the issue. It should be are you a brown and downer, meat hunter or a Hunter that can pass immature deer. That will still have more people in the brown and downer crew no doubt. This is simply because most people are inherently lazy, lack drive, or patience for success. This is just like the population of our country. There are way more people who pay no taxes or low taxes than there are in the 46% tax bracket. this is because way more people lack all the qualities to acquire wealth. ITs all about your desire, if you could care less about the quality of the animal you are killing then thats your personality most likely in life. In alot of states like in ohio you can only kill one buck. Id say if we could take more than one buck then alot of people may take an immature animal because they know they can still wait on the big one. I love deer meat but im not willing to short myself the joy of hunting a mature animal for my freezer. The only thing i can come up with is that guys that kill spikes lack the desire for a large animal. I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff. if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it. I believe alot of guys just want to fill there tag for fear of failure. Trust me if you tag a 6in spike buck thats not a success you have just shown your entire outlook on life. Just enough to get by


Dude, you crack me up. Are you actually trying to make a correlation between shooting spikes, and welfare recipients...***!!!??

The most telling characteristic among the so called "Trophy Hunters" on this thread, is that they all resort to bullying, name calling, and character assassination. All because they don't want people to shoot the deer that they want to shoot later. LMFAO!!

"Killing Tomorrow's Trophies Today"...best line ever IMHO!!!


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Nope not at all. I'm simply saying far less people strive for greatness vs surviving. It's much easier to do the least amount of work possible than to work hard. I mean if everyone really worked hard in life to be successful who would we have to do the jobs that take far less talent. I'm all for the people who short themselves a great life and achieving goals like taking a mature animal. It's much easier asking for gravy handouts vs working for it. Lol


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> Nope not at all. I'm simply saying far less people strive for greatness vs surviving. It's much easier to do the least amount of work possible than to work hard. I mean if everyone really worked hard in life to be successful who would we have to do the jobs that take far less talent. I'm all for the people who short themselves a great life and achieving goals like taking a mature animal. It's much easier asking for gravy handouts vs working for it. Lol


One day, you will understand the true value that nature has to offer you. It's not about competition amongst brothers. It's about harmony...lol

Enough of the hippie BS, you are just wrong.

You have some set.. to preach what you think is right, and that others, that don't agree with you, are wrong.

You're probably that guy that takes his deer to a processor just to have the mount caped out, and give all the meat to friends, and relatives, as if you are doing them a favor.

Seriously, where do you live? What lifestyle do you live? What access do you have to these properties that produce "Trophy Deer?"

ALL deer are trophies to the men that harvest them, regardless of how many "points" they may have on their head.

Especially with a bow..we are all brothers, let's not fight over this nonsense.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

flyin2jz said:


> there is no doubt shoulder that the poll will show more people are brown and downers and meat hunters. You cant post the poll are you against people shooting bucks and spike or for them. That isnt the issue. It should be are you a brown and downer, meat hunter or a Hunter that can pass immature deer. That will still have more people in the brown and downer crew no doubt. *This is simply because most people are inherently lazy, lack drive, or patience for success*. This is just like the population of our country. There are way more people who pay no taxes or low taxes than there are in the 46% tax bracket. this is because way more people lack all the qualities to acquire wealth. * ITs all about your desire, if you could care less about the quality of the animal you are killing then thats your personality most likely in life. * In alot of states like in ohio you can only kill one buck. Id say if we could take more than one buck then alot of people may take an immature animal because they know they can still wait on the big one. I love deer meat but im not willing to short myself the joy of hunting a mature animal for my freezer. The only thing i can come up with is that guys that kill spikes lack the desire for a large animal. I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff. if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it. I believe alot of guys just want to fill there tag for fear of failure. Trust me if you tag a 6in spike buck thats not a success you have just shown your entire outlook on life. Just enough to get by


Your analogy is a bit off base there Sigmund. How would you know what desires or drives anyone else has? I don't think anyone purposely says they don't want to be successful or succeed or whatever, but certain things happen in individual lives that make a person what they are. I retired from a 30 year position and am now working another job. Does that mean I lack the drive? I had dreams, but Man Above gave me a son with medical problems that take precedent over *anything *else. I pay more money in prescription co-pays in one year than I made 35-40 years ago. Oh yeah, I pay my share of taxes too.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> there is no doubt shoulder that the poll will show more people are brown and downers and meat hunters. You cant post the poll are you against people shooting bucks and spike or for them. That isnt the issue. It should be are you a brown and downer, meat hunter or a Hunter that can pass immature deer. That will still have more people in the brown and downer crew no doubt. This is simply because most people are inherently lazy, lack drive, or patience for success. This is just like the population of our country. There are way more people who pay no taxes or low taxes than there are in the 46% tax bracket. this is because way more people lack all the qualities to acquire wealth. ITs all about your desire, if you could care less about the quality of the animal you are killing then thats your personality most likely in life. In alot of states like in ohio you can only kill one buck. Id say if we could take more than one buck then alot of people may take an immature animal because they know they can still wait on the big one. I love deer meat but im not willing to short myself the joy of hunting a mature animal for my freezer. The only thing i can come up with is that guys that kill spikes lack the desire for a large animal. I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff. if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it. I believe alot of guys just want to fill there tag for fear of failure. Trust me if you tag a 6in spike buck thats not a success you have just shown your entire outlook on life. Just enough to get by


Good God man, do you really honestly believe this or are you just :fish2:.

If you have sense of anything, beyond your own ego, take a look some time at old black and white deer camp photos from the depression era or post world war II era or post vietnam era. Take a good look at the guys in those photos and their puny deer and think abot what scars they may have carried and what that hunting camp and those deer probably meant to them. Then ask yourself if they killed those deer because they were afraid to fail or were lazy or lacked drive. Now ask yourself if you think you are better than they were.

What a schmuck.


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> Nope not at all. I'm simply saying far less people strive for greatness vs surviving. It's much easier to do the least amount of work possible than to work hard. I mean if everyone really worked hard in life to be successful who would we have to do the jobs that take far less talent. I'm all for the people who short themselves a great life and achieving goals like taking a mature animal. It's much easier asking for gravy handouts vs working for it. Lol


This has to be the most nonsensical load of BS I have ever read. There are a lot of people out there, day in and day out, who work their behind off JUST to survive. So what if they go out and harvest a yearling, button buck, spike, mature buck, or doe. I know plenty of people who go out and hunt and will have just as successful hunt seeing nothing as getting an opportunity at a big buck. To some people it simply does not matter, they are hunting for the expierence. They are putting the time in the woods for themselves, not for what someone else thinks or what someone else wants.


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

new hunters,older hunters should take what ever the want,i donnot have a problem with it. the guys that are in beteen that make me sick,have u ever shot a mother doe guted her an she was full of milk,an while you were gutting her two yearlings stare at you at 50 yards sad eyes an all. meat hunter shot them to? buck for me have to have 3 pts on 1 side, i donnot have to kill a 140 buck or a button mostly i like to hunt but i am no baby killer does i will shot later in season so little ones have a chance to make it


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

thats how i roll


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

greenboy said:


> new hunters,older hunters should take what ever the want,i donnot have a problem with it. the guys that are in beteen that make me sick,have u ever shot a mother doe guted her an she was full of milk,an while you were gutting her two yearlings stare at you at 50 yards sad eyes an all. meat hunter shot them to? buck for me have to have 3 pts on 1 side, i donnot have to kill a 140 buck or a button mostly i like to hunt but i am no baby killer does i will shot later in season so little ones have a chance to make it


Except now that doe you shot later in the season now has "babies" inside her. The fawns will be fine if you shoot the doe.


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> the guys that are in beteen that make me sick,have u ever shot a mother doe guted her an she was full of milk,an while you were gutting her two yearlings stare at you at 50 yards sad eyes an all.


I certainly can't speak about NY, but here in IL virtually* every* mature doe has at least one fawn with her, and you will get milk on your hands when you field dress her. The doe has usually run her male offspring away by the time it gets cold, so I'm sure that means they're all old enough to make it.


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## roosclan (Oct 1, 2010)

flyin2jz said:


> I dont understand how you could think this way unless this is the way you live your life. Never really striving to be the best you can. I refuse to take an animal that im not proud of just to say i filled my freezer thats very der der caveman stuff.





flyin2jz said:


> Nope not at all. I'm simply saying far less people strive for greatness vs surviving. It's much easier to do the least amount of work possible than to work hard. I mean if everyone really worked hard in life to be successful who would we have to do the jobs that take far less talent. I'm all for the people who short themselves a great life and achieving goals like taking a mature animal. It's much easier asking for gravy handouts vs working for it. Lol


_If_ your logic holds, then you must obviously be a multi-millionaire.



flyin2jz said:


> if you need it to survive then ill be the first to tell you nice job and if i get one ill bring it by so you can eat it.


Great! I'll take you up on that. Put your money where your mouth is and PM me for my address. I'll be waiting for you to show up with the deer so I can hang it in my ga**** (stays under 40deg in Dec) and butcher it myself. My wife, 6 kids and myself will be quite grateful to have the meat.

eta: why in the world is the word g a r a g e being censored???


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## FatalFlaw129 (Nov 17, 2010)

I wouldn't say I hate guys that shoot spikes, but I strongly disagree with them for shooting a spike. You shoot what you are happy with, and if it makes a guy happy by shooting a spike, more power to them. I would never be caught shooting a spike on my farm though.


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

as long as you dont use a **** haha censoring. lets see if the thread closes now


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## FLH (Sep 24, 2009)

roosclan said:


> _If_eta: why in the world is the word g a r a g e being censored???




Because it has the word **** in it. That word is now censored, so when that word appears in another word, it gets censored out of that word. It might seem out****ous, but I think it's a humorous way of driving home the point that the powers that be are tired of all the bickering that goes on any time someone posts about a **** broadhead.


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## FLH (Sep 24, 2009)

T-**** said:


> as long as you dont use a **** haha censoring. lets see if the thread closes now





You're lucky your name didn't get censored!


ETA: Oops, I spoke too soon, it does get whacked when you're quoted! LOL


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## Quartermoons (Oct 14, 2010)

For those of you who are using how much harder it is to hunt mature deer as a major point of your argument, I'll gladly share topo maps, aerials and as much other intel as I can of Mark Twain National Forest. Along with proof that the land has produced deer to meet the trophy requirements of any logical fair chase outdoorsman. Both past and present. If it's all about the challenge, here's a chance to put up or shut up. Tags are cheaper than a lot of the popular travel destinations too. You can upgrade to that top of the line pedestal mount after your tagged out with the money saved. If you've never tried it, there really is something special to take a fully mature deer that has had to figure out how to survive his entire life. Not just until his antlers were big enough to make you feel superior for taking him. Let's talk. 

And with the appointment of an independent arbitrator, I'll volunteer to submit my 10 best up against the more obnoxious blowhards who have contributed to this thread for comparisons sake. Would have to ask for one caveat though. And caveat is not one of the legendary mystical hiding places the big boys disappear to during hunting season. Best I can figure from seeing it used before is it's somehow related to the word exception. And that exception would be, that in the event the independent arbitrator would rule that my best 10 (under what I deem fair chase/normal guy hunting locations) would somehow be comparable to the guys who really know how to trophy hunt, and declare a tie, I get to define what a tiebreaker would be. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, if you haven't seen the movie Zoolander, you might want to at least watch it before accepting my challenge. It has taken countless hours, but the walk-off trick that eliminated Derek in that movie is now rather easy for me to perform. Another added benefit of spending hours on stand in a place where there might only be 2 or 3 deer the size that I am looking for in the entire area. The day they are more commonplace than smaller bucks, I'll probably change locations. Always felt it should be considered an accomplishment to take one.


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## jonathanjt (Sep 3, 2008)

**** is censored?


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Here is what would happen if you were Cornfed's neighbor. You would show up at the check station with your yearling buck and see all of your neighbors there with their big old bucks, patting each other on the back and admiring their trophys. After you cut the skull plate off of your little buck and hung his antlers over a rafter in your shed never to be looked at again, you would think to yourself "I wish my buck had big antlers like the ones my neighbors shoot". You would stew about it the entire off season. Then the next year you would hold out for a big one and it would be way more fun and gratifying than sticking the first little buck that walks by. True story.


Wow, so in your fantasy dream sequence, your hero (Cornfed the boy wonder), and his merry group of Trophy Hunting neighbors, all score Trophy deer. 

And the guy that doesn't measure up (in your opinion), skulks away in shame, because he did not live up to the standard that you set forth as acceptable.

YOU NEED HELP DUDE!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

spiker_01 said:


> Wow, *so in your fantasy dream sequence, your hero* (Cornfed the boy wonder), and his merry group of Trophy Hunting neighbors, all score Trophy deer.
> 
> And the guy that doesn't measure up (in your opinion), skulks away in shame, because he did not live up to the standard that you set forth as acceptable.
> 
> YOU NEED HELP DUDE!


Says the guy with Link in his avatar picture. Hey, did you kill any Gannons with your silver arrows this season?


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

spiker_01 said:


> Wow, so in your fantasy dream sequence, your hero (Cornfed the boy wonder), and his merry group of Trophy Hunting neighbors, all score Trophy deer.
> 
> And the guy that doesn't measure up (in your opinion), skulks away in shame, because he did not live up to the standard that you set forth as acceptable.
> 
> YOU NEED HELP DUDE!


:***: sorry,anyone who stills uses the word "Dude" and has a cartoon avatar I just can't take seriously.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

beast said:


> :***: sorry,anyone who stills uses the word "Dude" and has a cartoon avatar I just can't take seriously.


lol....the badger/beast combo is a real winner, I wish I would have thought of that first.


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

i was a meat hunter but i got over it,an if i fail to get a deer this year... its not a big thing, buck or doe but i will not shoot a botton buck or yearling doe.its not my thing i feel bad , but i look down on hunter who will not give these deer a year or to so they can grow up.. an guys that kill 80% of the deer in a section of woods then next year cry there no bucks an few deer make me sick....... thats how i roll


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## LebeauHunter (Jun 4, 2007)

I hate the act, but not the man. :tongue: You could just start calling them buttonbuckmaster, that usually gets under skin.


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## greenboy (Sep 21, 2005)

next year that button buck could be a small 6 or 8 pt. OH i will say it for the meat hunters-1 in the hand is better than 0-OR if i do not shoot it some other babykiller will. last but i have been out of work for a long time need meat $$$ are low,he might be able to buy beef if he give up beer,smokes i know there more lines they say to justify baby shooting


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

LebeauHunter said:


> I hate the act, but not the man. :tongue: You could just start calling them buttonbuckmaster, that usually gets under skin.


And this is the the real world off of the net and the real men in the world are likely to knock a few teeth out for those so inclined to call them little middle school names


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

greenboy said:


> next year that button buck could be a small 6 or 8 pt. OH i will say it for the meat hunters-1 in the hand is better than 0-OR if i do not shoot it some other babykiller will. last but i have been out of work for a long time need meat $$$ are low,he might be able to buy beef if he give up beer,smokes i know there more lines they say to justify baby shooting


Grow up son its not about your perfect world and its an adult decision that payed for their tag you likely do not understand that since mom and dad support you and you get to hunt others that put money into their own properties that they own not you!


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## fmb (Jan 23, 2006)

If you think "greatness" is big horns then thats your opinion and thats fine for you. I shoot deer, I try not to shoot small deer simply because my processor charges the same for small deer or large deer so I shoot larger body size deer to improve the cost per pound cost. I'll take 3 maybe 4 deer for the freezer this year, matters not to me if they are spikes, 3 pointers, 10 pointers or does. My wife and I prefer venison to beef, something about beef being pumped full of steriods and hormones I dont care for. Sure, big horns are fun to look at but so are playboy magazines and I dont have one of those hanging over the fireplace 

Shoot what makes you happy as long as its legal, let the elitists suck a big horn for dinner


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

the real humor in this thread is all you self proclaimed "meat hunters" are the first ones to complain about how the Hmong community hunts, I don't know why. after all they are just *meat hunters, just like you*


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> next year that button buck could be a small 6 or 8 pt.


Yeah - big difference between a BB and a 1.5?????


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

beast said:


> the real humor in this thread is all you self proclaimed "meat hunters" are the first ones to complain about how the Hmong community hunts, I don't know why. after all they are just *meat hunters, just like you*


I'm a meat hunter. My wife and I absolutely love venison. We dont buy store bought meat. However, I wont kill a fawn, a momma with a fawn, or any small deer period. I also pass on plenty of deer that is big enough to kill. But if I want to kill a 4 or 6 point I darn sure will.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

beast said:


> the real humor in this thread is all you self proclaimed "meat hunters" are the first ones to complain about how the Hmong community hunts, I don't know why. after all they are just *meat hunters, just like you*


Wrong again! Many times when Hmong hunters or fisherman make the papers for game violations it's because the are grossly over their limits. They don't really understand the regulations and therefore think they don't apply to them.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Wrong again! Many times when Hmong hunters or fisherman make the papers for game violations it's because the are grossly over their limits. They don't really understand the regulations and therefore think they don't apply to them.


even when they are legal I have seen meat hunters complain about them shooting everything they see.and if they don't understand You should take them under your wing and help teach them after all they are meat hunters trying to feed they're family's and need the meat.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

beast said:


> even when they are legal I have seen meat hunters complain about them shooting everything they see.and if they don't understand You should take them under your wing and help teach them after all they are meat hunters trying to feed they're family's and need the meat.


Naw...you take 'em. They all want to be trophy hunters now.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

I honest to God dont understand why there is an argument. No one has any right to tell another person what they should do as long as what they are doing is legal. The only exception to that rule is if they are using your property. Otherwise ........ Shut the heck up and mind your own business. 

I have no personal vendetta against trophy hunters. Its there thing. 

I have never shot a smaller deer then complained that I dont ever see big deer.

I dont hunt for meat or for trophies. I hunt deer! And it doesnt matter what shape size or sex. If it steps in front of me and I feel like shooting it then its life is in danger. I have passed on small deer and spikes and buttons. I have also shot small deer and spikes and buttons. It all depends on how I feel that day and that is all that matters. 

The way some of the guys on this thread are talking is crazy! And I would wager that the few that are screaming the loudest have never even killed a trophy deer.


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## Quartermoons (Oct 14, 2010)

Well PoorMan, maybe they some of them have killed trophy deer, and maybe they haven't. But at least a few them look prepared to call my bluff from yesterday's post. And since I really can't do the move I claimed I could, a fisheye lens for a Canon digital SLR would come in handy about now. As well as any tips to make the same basket racked 8 point look like a lot of different deer.  But he was a HUGE bodied deer. Think I've been eating on him for the last several years.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

poorman said:


> I honest to God dont understand why there is an argument. No one has any right to tell another person what they should do as long as what they are doing is legal. The only exception to that rule is if they are using your property. Otherwise ........ Shut the heck up and mind your own business.
> 
> I have no personal vendetta against trophy hunters. Its there thing.
> 
> ...


I agree with you,i never have said It was anyone's business what you shoot on your property. the point being, meat hunter saying trophy hunting is ruining hunting,and its all greed driven which is not true,and when trying to explain the benefits of passing on smaller deer, and let the individual hunter make up his mind on how and what they hunt.the self proclaimed meat hunters beat they're chest, post they're pictures,and how they need the meat, not want, not like,but need. which I believe is the biggest bunch of baloney yet.


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

Hey guys. let's not forget that just because one is a meat hunter it does not have to follow that they shoot yearling bucks. As stated, I'm a meat hunter....I just don't get my meat from bucks until after I cut their head off to take to the taxidermist :smile:

I'm reminded of the line in Full Metal Jacket, I believe..."this is my rifle, this is my gun.........."

....does are for eating and bucks are for fun


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

roosclan said:


> _If_ your logic holds, then you must obviously be a multi-millionaire.
> 
> 
> Great! I'll take you up on that. Put your money where your mouth is and PM me for my address. I'll be waiting for you to show up with the deer so I can hang it in my ga**** (stays under 40deg in Dec) and butcher it myself. My wife, 6 kids and myself will be quite grateful to have the meat.
> ...


roos you know im not talking about you brother. I understand you need it for the meat. I got no issue with that. Pretty stand up thing to admit. HOpe you are blessed in the future, keep your head up. if you lived closer i would for sure kill every deer i saw and could tag and give them to you.


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

"Shooting tomorrows trophy today" - I like that, can't believe a guy who hunts private land or QDM land has a problem with another guy shooting a young deer on state or federal land. Pretty small percentage of guys who hunt public land have such strong words against others. Easy to say if you see 50 bucks a year sitting in your back yard. To each his own. I have no problem shooting anything 1.5 years old or older - On the flip side I have issues with "trophy" hunters but I don't dislike or hate them.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

I am truly blessed that the only ones I have to answer to is God, my wife and the gamewarden.. All others need not complain


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

spiker_01 said:


> One day, you will understand the true value that nature has to offer you. It's not about competition amongst brothers. It's about harmony...lol
> 
> Enough of the hippie BS, you are just wrong.
> 
> ...


i have never said it was wrong. I just dont understand how people with access to mature animals will settle for a small button. this is my thought only if you dont need the meat to feed your family. I never hit the golf course with the thought in mind i just wanna have fun. I want to score the best i can and lose the least amount of money. i guess the competition thing is in my blood and i honestly wish it wasnt, but the other side of me appreciates the fact that competition is what has made me strive to have the things i have in life. Without a competitive drive i would have been much worse off in life. How many trophy spikes can you kill before you realize theres just not much to doing this. At that point the fun wouldnt be there for me to go to the woods. i love the fresh air and time to think while in the woods. You dont have to kill every deer you see to have a great day in the woods. My wife thinks im crazy when i take pictures of the deer i pass. I had to start doing that because she didnt believe i was seeing deer. So even my wife thinks im a little nuts to sit in the woods for days on end with nothing to show for it. Its not about the kill its about the hunt. If people start to realize this they will have alot more fun in the woods. You have to realize ive never killed a trophy buck in my life so i dont consider myself some big deer killer. I sure would like to take one one day and thats what keeps me hunting.
here is what im chasing. Maybe no trophy to you guys but it sure isnt a spike. been chasing him for 2 yrs


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Im not a guy who hates anyone. YOu can kill whatever makes you happy. To the guy who was saying look at the depression what they were killing. Wow is that a joke? NO crap they were trying to survive. I sure hope thats not the case for most of us today...


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> Im not a guy who hates anyone. YOu can kill whatever makes you happy. To the guy who was saying look at the depression what they were killing. Wow is that a joke? NO crap they were trying to survive. I sure hope thats not the case for most of us today...


No joke, and if that is all you took from it, you missed my point entirely.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

beast said:


> I agree with you,i never have said It was anyone's business what you shoot on your property. the point being, meat hunter saying trophy hunting is ruining hunting,and its all greed driven which is not true,and when trying to explain the benefits of passing on smaller deer, and let the individual hunter make up his mind on how and what they hunt.the self proclaimed meat hunters beat they're chest, post they're pictures,and how they need the meat, not want, not like,but need. which I believe is the biggest bunch of baloney yet.


Its not ALL greed driven. But it sure is a big part of it for *SOME* people. 
When someone (in this thread) calls someone else whte trash hillbillies and ******** etc. etc. just because he doesnt agree with how I hunt.......
When someone says (in this thread) if you shoot a small one, you're taking away *my* (his) chance at killing it later when its bigger ......

To me those kinds of comments are greedy and wouldnt sit well with me even if I was a trophy hunter.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

beast said:


> I agree with you,i never have said It was anyone's business what you shoot on your property. the point being, meat hunter saying trophy hunting is ruining hunting,and its all greed driven which is not true,and when trying to explain the benefits of passing on smaller deer, and let the individual hunter make up his mind on how and what they hunt.the self proclaimed meat hunters beat they're chest, post they're pictures,and how they need the meat, not want, not like,but need. which I believe is the *biggest bunch of baloney *yet.


Nope.....no balogna, just Polish sausage, weiners, snack sticks and summer sausage.


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

Toonces said:


> No joke, and if that is all you took from it, you missed my point entirely.


I read your post again and i still dont get it. Obviously my high school education is holding me back. Here is what you posted:

If you have sense of anything, beyond your own ego, take a look some time at old black and white deer camp photos from the depression era or post world war II era or post vietnam era. Take a good look at the guys in those photos and their puny deer and think abot what scars they may have carried and what that hunting camp and those deer probably meant to them. Then ask yourself if they killed those deer because they were afraid to fail or were lazy or lacked drive. Now ask yourself if you think you are better than they were.
If you think those guys were hunting for fun your most likely wrong. Those guys were trying to survive. That was how people fed their families alot of time back then. We dont need deer meat to survive. They used it in way that is totally understood. Meat hunters use it now to satisfy a taste for deer not need. Very very different things. Since i dont kill everything i see , and im the schmuck, thats some funny stuff. They will be calling you that when you bring your spike to the deer tagging station i assure you.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

flyin2jz said:


> I read your post again and i still dont get it. Obviously my high school education is holding me back. Here is what you posted:
> 
> If you have sense of anything, beyond your own ego, take a look some time at old black and white deer camp photos from the depression era or post world war II era or post vietnam era. Take a good look at the guys in those photos and their puny deer and think abot what scars they may have carried and what that hunting camp and those deer probably meant to them. Then ask yourself if they killed those deer because they were afraid to fail or were lazy or lacked drive. Now ask yourself if you think you are better than they were.
> If you think those guys were hunting for fun your most likely wrong. Those guys were trying to survive. That was how people fed their families alot of time back then. *We dont* *need deer meat to survive*. They used it in way that is totally understood. Meat hunters use it now to satisfy a taste for deer not need. Very very different things. Since i dont kill everything i see , and im the schmuck, thats some funny stuff. They will be calling you that when you bring your spike to the deer tagging station i assure you.


I agree with this statement, and the ones that say they do, I have to ask.if your that hard up for meat, why are you wasting money on a computer and INTERNET?none which is cheap to own or operate.you could buy allot of beef and pork with the money.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

beast said:


> I agree with this statement, and the ones that say they do, I have to ask.if your that hard up for meat, why are you wasting money on a computer and INTERNET?none which is cheap to own or operate.you could buy allot of beef and pork with the money.


I'm trying to learn how to be a trophy hunter. Now how am I going to do that without a computer and the internet?


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

I'm not hard up for meat, I can afford to buy it at the grocery store. I prefer to take it from the woods. Young bucks are good on the table.
I got no problem with "trophy" hunters, they leave more for me.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

It's not that it the fact that they are meat hunters, It's the lame excuses they use to justify they're actions. I can respect someone who says he can't help himself, he see a deer and just has to shoot.The one that gets me is," If i don't shoot it the Next guy will". I'm here to tell you, we need to turn that next guy in, he's shooting deer everywhere in every state, and there is no way Mr.Next Guy can have that many tags.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

beast said:


> It's not that it the fact that they are meat hunters, It's the lame excuses they use to justify they're actions. I can respect someone who says he can't help himself, he see a deer and just has to shoot.The one that gets me is," If i don't shoot it the Next guy will". I'm here to tell you, we need to turn that next guy in, he's shooting deer everywhere in every state, and there is no way Mr.Next Guy can have that many tags.


I talked to Mr. Next Guy about it. He said he'd like to shoot a few big bucks and he agreed that we should all pass up the dinky bucks so we can all have a chance at some trophies. He's actually not that bad of a guy once you get to know him. Before we had that conversation I thought he was a giant ******.


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## cjtaylor0103 (Oct 22, 2008)




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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

flyin2jz said:


> I read your post again and i still dont get it. Obviously my high school education is holding me back. Here is what you posted:
> 
> If you have sense of anything, beyond your own ego, take a look some time at old black and white deer camp photos from the depression era or post world war II era or post vietnam era. Take a good look at the guys in those photos and their puny deer and think abot what scars they may have carried and what that hunting camp and those deer probably meant to them. Then ask yourself if they killed those deer because they were afraid to fail or were lazy or lacked drive. Now ask yourself if you think you are better than they were.
> If you think those guys were hunting for fun your most likely wrong. Those guys were trying to survive. That was how people fed their families alot of time back then. We dont need deer meat to survive. They used it in way that is totally understood. Meat hunters use it now to satisfy a taste for deer not need. Very very different things. Since i dont kill everything i see , and im the schmuck, thats some funny stuff. They will be calling you that when you bring your spike to the deer tagging station i assure you.
> ...


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

Great pic of the little guy up there! He's entitled to shoot any little buck he wants but he held out for a 150" mulie! :thumbs_up


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Csquared said:


> Great pic of the little guy up there! He's entitled to shoot any little buck he wants but he held out for a 150" mulie! :thumbs_up


That's been altered! He's really saying "that's one for the freezer".


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


Sorry to see you feel this way. So if a landowner told you to shoot every legal deer you can and your permission depended on it you wouldn't shoot a button or spike ? YOu hate my son, who's first deer was a 98lb button that he shot at age 11 ? How about me, I'm guilty, shot one this year, came in with a small fawn, figured he was the 1 1/2 yr old doe and the other her fawn, ended up weighing 96lbs. ? Well I guess I'll have to take you off my Christmas card list LOL

I could careless. In my state you get one buck, if a neighbor shoots a spike then he is out the picture for the rest of the season, a plus for me. Buttons, well I see a lot of them on the side of the road taking a dirt/gravel nap after being ran off by mama. 

I really try not to shoot a button, but I have. I have a landowner that wants to see bodies. I don't shoot spikes because I try to wait for a nice buck, but don't care if someone else shoots one. 

Lot of hunters only have a couple weekends to hunt and part of their enjoyment is being successful, that is part of the hunt for all of us. I mean if it wasn't then why even take a weapon out ?


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## roosclan (Oct 1, 2010)

poorman said:


> And I would wager that the few that are screaming the loudest have never even killed a trophy deer.


And _some_ of them may very well blame those of us who hunt for food as being the reason they haven't seen a trophy buck.



flyin2jz said:


> roos you know im not talking about you brother. I understand you need it for the meat. I got no issue with that. Pretty stand up thing to admit. HOpe you are blessed in the future, keep your head up. if you lived closer i would for sure kill every deer i saw and could tag and give them to you.


Thank you. We will be blessed in the future, as boy #7 will be arriving in about a month (longer if we can keep him in there 'til his due date in Feb). Hopefully, I'll be successful tomorrow, as I have to drive 2.5hrs to get to public land to hunt. Sadly, central KS is already saturated with nonresident hunters, so I am not optimistic. If by some miracle I see a nice big-bodied buck you can be sure I'll try to tag him (heck of a lot more meat in the freezer!). If not, a nice fat doe will make me just as happy. If I have to settle for a smaller doe, then I'll still be happy to have fresh venison. My wife and I will enjoy perfectly grilled tenderloins for dinner after we get the kids in bed.

Speaking of does, those things are downright jumpy now! The four that regularly graze our back pasture were so high strung I'm surprised they didn't jump out of their skin when my kids went outside to play Thursday afternoon (I rent a house on 4 acres _in the city limits_ with houses behind the pasture). It's not legal for me to shoot them (live right across from a school), and the houses are really too close to make it a safe shot anyway. I can't even use a bow to shoot them as shooting any projectile weapon in town is illegal. I can drive hours to hunt and not see a single thing, or not have a shot on the one deer I see (just like Wednesday), but I can walk into the back pasture and get within 50yds of these does that I can't shoot without committing a federal felony. _Talk about frustration!_ :angry:


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

Shouldernuke! said:


> And this is the the real world off of the net and the real men in the world are likely to knock a few teeth out for those so inclined to call them little middle school names


hahah who says button buck master. thats funny right there. instead of BBD how about bbd. haha cmon thats funny

i wish ny would only shoot one buck a season especially on public property. thatd be huge for the buck population. instead of possibly 3 archery, gun, muzzleloader. and poachers who knows how many.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I'm trying to learn how to be a trophy hunter. Now how am I going to do that without a computer and the internet?


HAHAHA Now thats funny stuff I dont care who you are!!!


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

beast said:


> It's not that it the fact that they are meat hunters, It's the lame excuses they use to justify they're actions. I can respect someone who says he can't help himself, he see a deer and just has to shoot.The one that gets me is," If i don't shoot it the Next guy will". I'm here to tell you, we need to turn that next guy in, he's shooting deer everywhere in every state, and there is no way Mr.Next Guy can have that many tags.


Beast - I can honestly tell you that I have never killed a deer because i thought if I didnt the next guy would. And even though we disagree on some things I have to agree that is a stupid reason to kill a deer. 

I have permission to hunt on some decent ground. There are definitley big bucks in the area and there are 140 to 160 inchers killed every year. If one of them walks in front of me, I would happily put the smack down on him and be proud of it. However if he is late getting up that day and his little brother shows up first........ I will be more than happy to take him out as well. Hell, two years agao I watched what was probably a 140 chase a doe by my stand and an hour later shot a 1.5 year old 7 pointer. Its just not all about bone for me.

For me and others its not about killing the "biggest and the bestest". Its just about deer hunting. I know we may never agree on this issue but I think we can both agree that it is a personal choice and we can both agree that without both sides of this argument sticking together that we as a whole (hunters) are weakened.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Csquared said:


> Great pic of the little guy up there! He's entitled to shoot any little buck he wants but he held out for a 150" mulie! :thumbs_up


Pretty sure thats no Mulie.


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## brandon170 (Jul 5, 2010)

who cares turn the computer off and go hunting


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

poorman said:


> I honest to God dont understand why there is an argument. No one has any right to tell another person what they should do as long as what they are doing is legal. The only exception to that rule is if they are using your property. Otherwise ........ Shut the heck up and mind your own business.
> 
> I have no personal vendetta against trophy hunters. Its there thing.
> 
> ...


I am all about minding my own business most of the time, but then the ones who don't get laws made to make what I want to do and does no harm to them illegal. Next thing you know, I am the bad guy.

Funny how that works huh?


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

I have a question. For all those that are trophy hunters and think everybody should have your standards. Did you start your career as a elite trophy hunter? How many animals did you kill that you would consider lesser deer now. Lets be real careful now and honest. Careful our hypocrisy could consume us. I will start. The first deer I killed was a 135inch 8pt. Not a monster for midwest states but a super deer for NW North Carolina. Did I shoot any so called lessor deer after that? Yes. Why? Is it because I needed the meat to survive? No. It was because my family and I love deer meat. Its sorta like do I really need a $45000.00 4+4 truck so I can be a TV hunting show wannabe. Its sorta like as a Trophy Hunter do you really need the Horns. Does your survival depend on it? Certainly not. It should be because you enjoy it. Whether you are a self proclaimed trophy hunter or meat hunter. The reason we hunt should be because we enjoy it. Hey the horns and meat is a bonus. I have been very blessed over the years to take a good number of some really good bucks for my area. I have a 11pt and 8pt in the freezer right now that I am very thankful for. Does that make me a trophy hunter? No. A meat hunter? maybe because I eat what I shoot. People that sickens me is the ones that kills a big buck and all thier worried about is the horns and dont make use of the meat. I think the Hunting Show Industry has brain washed alot of hunters. It has produced alot of so called trophy hunters who want to push their standards on others. And the ones that have been blessed enough to kill big whitetails year after year it is becuase they are on good ground. On ground that has the right balance to produce whitetails with mega headgear. I have seen many deer that people has killed that I would have let walk. Did I hate them for legally killing their deer? No That would be absurd. If they are happy with it. I am happy for them. I dont consider myself a trophy hunter or even a meat hunter. I am a deer hunter.


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## bunker (Jul 27, 2009)

Holy crap Batman... i have been away from site for a week or so and this one is still page burning???????????????? must be alot of good posts


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

Man you could go on with the "what ifs" for months and get yourself so bent out of shape that you'll never shoot another deer in your life.

What if that doe you shot for meat had been bred and was carrying the fetus of a fawn that was going to be a button buck that 5 years down the road would be the next world record buck that you could have killed? 

What if by killing that mature buck, you let some scraggly genetically inferior buck sneak in and breed the does, and then for the next 10-15 years you are dealing with 4-5 year old bucks that never make it over 100 inches?

What if...what if...what if....

Southeast TN don't have the land capacity or nutrients to really "grow" big deer. Our deer, even at mature ages, are very small framed body. We are over run in numbers of deer and they are really competitive with modern development and trying to make it. Thus is why in our city limits it's not uncommon to see deer on the road sides picking grass and or ran over road kills. 

BTW just for the record. In my opinion a mature ole nanny head doe is a heckuva lot harder to kill with a bow than a mature buck. Especially if she has fawns! The deer here come through the woods eating acorns and looking up in the trees. They flinch at every little sound and can pull a full blown move out of the Matrix movies with an arrow shot out of the fastest of bows.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

poorman said:


> Beast - I can honestly tell you that I have never killed a deer because i thought if I didnt the next guy would. And even though we disagree on some things I have to agree that is a stupid reason to kill a deer.
> 
> I have permission to hunt on some decent ground. There are definitley big bucks in the area and there are 140 to 160 inchers killed every year. If one of them walks in front of me, I would happily put the smack down on him and be proud of it. However if he is late getting up that day and his little brother shows up first........ I will be more than happy to take him out as well. Hell, two years agao I watched what was probably a 140 chase a doe by my stand and an hour later shot a 1.5 year old 7 pointer. Its just not all about bone for me.
> 
> For me and others its not about killing the "biggest and the bestest". Its just about deer hunting. I know we may never agree on this issue but I think we can both agree that it is a personal choice and we can both agree that without both sides of this argument sticking together that we as a whole (hunters) are weakened.


I can agree with this, a honest statement. and 1 1/2 yr. old deer is far from being a fawn.for myself, I get more enjoyment tricking the senses of young deer than shooting them,its part of the enjoyment of hunting, not just killing to fill a tag.when I do take a older mature deer, I fell more of a sense of accomplishment, for the simple reason this deer has been able to survive using its senses for a longer period of time.


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## T-Rage (Aug 24, 2009)

make a prediction when this thread closes. i say 44 hahaha


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## Csquared (Feb 20, 2010)

> Beast - I can honestly tell you that I have never killed a deer because i thought if I didnt the next guy would. And even though we disagree on some things I have to agree that is a stupid reason to kill a deer.
> 
> I have permission to hunt on some decent ground. There are definitley big bucks in the area and there are 140 to 160 inchers killed every year. If one of them walks in front of me, I would happily put the smack down on him and be proud of it. However if he is late getting up that day and his little brother shows up first........ I will be more than happy to take him out as well. Hell, two years agao I watched what was probably a 140 chase a doe by my stand and an hour later shot a 1.5 year old 7 pointer. Its just not all about bone for me.
> 
> For me and others its not about killing the "biggest and the bestest". Its just about deer hunting. I know we may never agree on this issue but I think we can both agree that it is a personal choice and we can both agree that without both sides of this argument sticking together that we as a whole (hunters) are weakened.


Probably the best post yet! Like I said very early on, hate is a very strong word, but there is a place for it. We should stick together and reserve emotions that strong for those who wish to take away our rights to hunt and arm ourselves.......................and those who put up high fences to keep taxpayer supported deer on THEIR property...but that's for another day


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## Huntrgathr (Aug 1, 2010)

Hate threads always go platinum. Just say you hate something and it will keep a whole bunch of folks real busy for a week or two.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

poorman said:


> Its not ALL greed driven. But it sure is a big part of it for *SOME* people.
> When someone (in this thread) calls someone else whte trash hillbillies and ******** etc. etc. just because he doesnt agree with how I hunt.......
> *When someone says (in this thread) if you shoot a small one, you're taking away my (his) chance at killing it later when its bigger ......
> *
> To me those kinds of comments are greedy and wouldnt sit well with me even if I was a trophy hunter.


It's not that you're taking away only *my* chance of killing it when it's bigger, you're taking away *everyone's* chance of killing it when it's bigger. Who's the greedy one now? The people who would like to see it grow up? Or the people who could take a doe and save the young buck for the people who will really appreciate it later, but can't restrain themselves?


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> It's not that you're taking away only *my* chance of killing it when it's bigger, you're taking away *everyone's* chance of killing it when it's bigger. Who's the greedy one now? The people who would like to see it grow up? Or the people who could take a doe and save the young buck for the people who will really appreciate it later, but can't restrain themselves?


You are quite the comedian.

You just can't get past the fact, that what a person who has paid for a legal tag harvests...is legal.

Not only legal, but ethical.

Not only ethical, but fair, and within their rights according to any guidlines set forth..except..that's right...YOUR GUIDLINES.

Try hunting a property where they want the deer removed, and pass on small deer, waiting for a "Trophy".

You will get kicked off a lot faster than this thread is being shut down.

Hunt a property with plans of being developed in the next year, and there is no hunting there next year.

There are so many scenarios that to hate anybody, or admonish anyone for their legal choice is rediculous.

Grow up, and learn to get along with your fellow hunters.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> It's not that you're taking away only *my* chance of killing it when it's bigger, you're taking away *everyone's* chance of killing it when it's bigger. Who's the greedy one now? The people who would like to see it grow up? Or the people who could take a doe and save the young buck for the people who will really appreciate it later, but can't restrain themselves?


So by your own words you say that by killing a small deer that someone is taking it away from everyone ! Right . Well then the exact same can be said for a hunter who shoots a giant buck that hunter just took it away from everyone . So where is that right in alls fair equation??? I mean if its wrong for the small buck hunters then the same can be said of those taking a big buck . But lets be realistic in ever sense of the word here going by what in my area of the country in the Midwest is biological fact most mature buck rarely travel more than 4 or 5 miles during the course of the rut and in most instances less than that . and the fact that most land here actually 90% of it is privately owned .then the taking of any deer especially a mature deer since the younger deer rarely travel more than a mile or two even in the rut because of the fact that they are very subordinate and roam very littel from home , it would only effect the hunters/landowners in that small area not every hunter and that number may be quite small only a few or a few hundred but that is the extent of who are effect by the taking of those deer in that area . So infact your logic is quite flawed in both respects of fairness and numbers effected by the taking of that one deer. It is true science and biology that come to the for front to unmask true greed and the desire to own or have total control and every deer in the world .


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y- What's the story behind your screen name? Did you shoot a buck that scored 123 4/8"?


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## flyin2jz (Dec 28, 2007)

spiker_01 said:


> You are quite the comedian.
> 
> You just can't get past the fact, that what a person who has paid for a legal tag harvests...is legal.
> 
> ...


all great reasons to kill everything you see. Farmers have crop insurance if they are a real farmer. The deer from the development area will move to another area where someone may get a chance at once they mature as long as you dont live close to them...lol


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## jesseo (Feb 16, 2009)

Just checking in on this moronic thread to see where it has gone, and sure enough, 28 pages, each with the same stuff over and over. Why is this thread still here?


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

T-Rage said:


> hahah who says button buck master. thats funny right there. instead of BBD how about bbd. haha cmon thats funny
> 
> i wish ny would only shoot one buck a season especially on public property. thatd be huge for the buck population. instead of possibly 3 archery, gun, muzzleloader. and poachers who knows how many.


You sure you hunt in NY?
Because you cannot take 3 bucks. 1 for either bow or mz and 1 for regular season.
The 2nd bow/mz tag is antlerless. And it is a tiny number of hunters who fill the 2nd tag.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> 123 4/8 P&Y- What's the story behind your screen name? Did you shoot a buck that scored 123 4/8"?


Yep. I got him on state land. It was my first buck that was older than 1.5 (I think he was 3.5). It was way more exciting than killing those little suckers. It changed my life. Have you ever seen a cheesier grin? That was a long time ago. Check out that finger tab.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

flyin2jz said:


> all great reasons to kill everything you see. Farmers have crop insurance if they are a real farmer. The deer from the development area will move to another area where someone may get a chance at once they mature as long as you dont live close to them...lol



Take the short bus often?

Your logic dictates that I should pass on deer to let someone else get it?

On another property, where I have zero chance of hunting?

That farmers have insurance, so shouldn't remove problematic deer?

I'm this uber altruistic guy that spends thousands of dollars on bowhunting that's just going to let everyone else cash in on my charity.

This thread has just got to be shut down, it's becoming moronic.:thumbs_do


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

spiker_01 said:


> You are quite the comedian.
> 
> You just can't get past the fact, that what a person who has paid for a legal tag harvests...is legal.
> 
> ...





Shouldernuke! said:


> So by your own words you say that by killing a small deer that someone is taking it away from everyone ! Right . Well then the exact same can be said for a hunter who shoots a giant buck that hunter just took it away from everyone . So where is that right in alls fair equation??? I mean if its wrong for the small buck hunters then the same can be said of those taking a big buck . But lets be realistic in ever sense of the word here going by what in my area of the country in the Midwest is biological fact most mature buck rarely travel more than 4 or 5 miles during the course of the rut and in most instances less than that . and the fact that most land here actually 90% of it is privately owned .then the taking of any deer especially a mature deer since the younger deer rarely travel more than a mile or two even in the rut because of the fact that they are very subordinate and roam very littel from home , it would only effect the hunters/landowners in that small area not every hunter and that number may be quite small only a few or a few hundred but that is the extent of who are effect by the taking of those deer in that area . So infact your logic is quite flawed in both respects of fairness and numbers effected by the taking of that one deer. It is true science and biology that come to the for front to unmask true greed and the desire to own or have total control and every deer in the world .


Geez you guys. I'm just saying that if you don't care what you kill, why not pass up the ones that other hunters might get some enjoyment out of? I know I know, because you bought your own tag and it's legal. Cry me a river. You're being selfish. The truth hurts. Deal with it. Boom.


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## chadschlomer (Nov 27, 2007)

f this


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## TeamDestroyer (Sep 12, 2010)

what I hate are the arrogant self rightous A-holes that come here posting B.S Like this feeling they are the deer hunting gods... 

I shoot what presents itself... I Pity you ...


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Geez you guys. I'm just saying that if you don't care what you kill, why not pass up the ones that other hunters might get some enjoyment out of? I know I know, because you bought your own tag and it's legal. Cry me a river. You're being selfish. The truth hurts. Deal with it. Boom.


No you are being very selfish and controlling it is our land our tag and I will shoot what I want So Boom Deal with that I could care less if anyone around me kills a big buck or any buck that is the essence of hunting its personnel .And When Did i say i did not care what I shot you assume too much and I did say I dint care if you or anyone likes what I shoot since it does not matte or bother me in the least that you set and pout and loose sleep about it sorry it is what it is . The is a NUKE instead of a BOOM 

Also like I said for a struggling Big buck hunter with really no big ones on the ground you sure are fulll of advice to those of us who take 130 to 175 in. bucks or larger almost every seaon just sayin if you listened half as much as you argued with accomplished hunters you would be on your way by now!!!!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> No you are being very selfish and controlling it is our land our tag and I will shoot what I want So Boom Deal with that I could care less if anyone around me kills a big buck or any buck that is the essence of hunting its personnel .And When Did i say i did not care what I shot you assume too much and I did say I dint care if you or anyone likes what I shoot since it does not matte or bother me in the least that you set and pout and loose sleep about it sorry it is what it is . The is a NUKE instead of a BOOM
> 
> Also like I said for a struggling Big buck hunter with really no big ones on the ground you sure are fulll of advice to those of us who take 130 to 175 in. bucks or larger almost every seaon just sayin if you listened half as much as you argued with accomplished hunters you would be on your way by now!!!!


Seems to me that only one crin a river are you and a few others that had or are having issues with thier buck hunting.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> No you are being very selfish and controlling it is our land our tag and I will shoot what I want So Boom Deal with that I could care less if anyone around me kills a big buck or any buck that is the essence of hunting its personnel .And When Did i say i did not care what I shot you assume too much and I did say I dint care if you or anyone likes what I shoot since it does not matte or bother me in the least that you set and pout and loose sleep about it sorry it is what it is . The is a NUKE instead of a BOOM
> 
> Also like I said *for a struggling Big buck hunter with really no big ones on the ground you sure are fulll of advice* to those of us who take 130 to 175 in. bucks or larger almost every seaon just sayin if you listened half as much as you argued with accomplished hunters you would be on your way by now!!!!


I am struggling killing big bucks but it isn't because I'm a crappy hunter. I've been hunting my family farm since I was 14 and it's not a great spot. I love it out there but it needs some improvements to become prime deer habitat. Every year I get within archery range of EVERY buck that has appeared on my cameras, except one. He was the only mature animal on the place this year. I got pictures of him one night in August and never again, so I don't even think he was a resident. For years our neighbors have been killing several small bucks each during the gun season. We've made some progress with them in the last couple of years and it's starting to pay off. They would also like to kill some mature bucks and we've more or less agreed to pass the young ones and kill some nannies for meat. I'm getting pictures of a few 3.5 year old bucks this year. Until this year I've never gotten pictures of more than one buck in the same year that is over 2.5 years old in 10 years of using trail cameras. Last year I killed the only 4.5 year old buck that I've ever gotten on camera. I also hunt public land around Grand Island but it's terrible. I just do it because the farm is an hour and a half away and I enjoy being in a tree. On any given outing on our public land you might see more used rubbers or beer cans in the woods than you see deer. They are tiny plots that would probably be really good hunting if they were private land. And I pass on every small buck that I see. You're welcome. My point is, if you're hunting where big bucks aren't, you aren't going to kill one. If they were where I hunt I am 100% confident that I would kill them. And because my neighbors turned out to be pretty cool guys, I think my hunting is getting better. How is that selfish nuke?


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> No you are being very selfish and controlling it is our land our tag and I will shoot what I want So Boom Deal with that I could care less if anyone around me kills a big buck or any buck that is the essence of hunting its personnel .And When Did i say i did not care what I shot you assume too much and I did say I dint care if you or anyone likes what I shoot since it does not matte or bother me in the least that you set and pout and loose sleep about it sorry it is what it is . The is a NUKE instead of a BOOM
> 
> Also like I said for a struggling Big buck hunter with really no big ones on the ground you sure are fulll of advice to those of us who take 130 to 175 in. bucks or larger almost every seaon just sayin* if you listened half as much as you argued with accomplished hunters you would be on your way by now*!!!!


One more thought, I do listen to the experienced guys when they give advice. You never give advice. You just constantly troll around and stir the deer management pot. I never see you posting anywhere else. Although the description of your hunting land you posted for me on that other thread was interesting. You never commented on my response to that post by the way.


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## camoman73 (Jul 7, 2007)

I dont hate them. I do get annoyed with button buck shooters. But if you haven't any food you have to do what you have to do,


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## silentdeathtx4 (Aug 2, 2010)

people are gonna shoot what they want to shoot, so why keep talking about it. I know im gonna shoot whatever I want, and aint nobody gonna stop me. As long as its legal.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> One more thought, I do listen to the experienced guys when they give advice. You never give advice. You just constantly troll around and stir the deer management pot. I never see you posting anywhere else. Although the description of your hunting land you posted for me on that other thread was interesting. You never commented on my response to that post by the way.


I did just a few posts ago but once again you were too busy trolling yourself and yes I did read up a page


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## Bowshtr (Sep 11, 2003)

There is one question that is brothering me that no one has asked, Are you what we call an "ANTI" looking for some kind of dirt to use to stir up some "SH&T? If not, why dont you drop it, its legal most everywhere.


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

Nuke , I just noticed your sig, I been killing deer for the last 47 years. so i have seen allot of changes on how its done.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

beast said:


> Nuke , I just noticed your sig, I been killing deer for the last 47 years. so i have seen allot of changes on how its done.


Me too its amazing the changes that have happened .But I believe the one thing that is lost on those who were not hunting 30 or 40 years ago is that we lived at a time when there were very very few deer of any kind as in just seeing a couple of deer a season was a big deal and if you killed one by the way back then it had to be a buck was a huge accomplishment in its self .I remember the year i took my first buck we killed 19,000 deer in the state for the whole year all seasons combined . Oh yeah those 36 years were adult years of deer hunting I hunted a kid from the time i was about 10 years old but I do not consider the learning child hood years as a serious deer hunting time in my life even though I went every year i would say that if you counted those years we would be real close in time hunting i would have 46 year in that case buct as i said i realy just dont count anything before my first kill . I was deer scarer and misser before then . So in fact I did not count any year before my first kill 36 years ago . But any ways I think the only reason SO many big bucks are being shoot has to do with the massive numbers of deer in the country now and the massive number of hunters as well . I mean we had 300,000 deer hunters that year I took my first deer and the deer herd here was estimated at only 70,000 animals over the entire state so you should have some idea of what i am talking about here.


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## pronghornproduction (Oct 27, 2007)

This thread is the exact reason hunter numbers have been dwindling and the anti's will probably one day shut us all down..................Why would you hate someone that has the same passion as you (hunting)? I don't give a rats arse if someone kills a legal deer, everyone has thier own reasons for hunting and we are not all after the same things. Do I pass on young bucks, yes, does my daughter , wife,or 19 year old nephew ? No because they are not as experienced and I would never tell them they cannot shoot a deer that would make them happy..........one day they may all choose to kill only mature bucks and does, but if they don't I don't care, so long as they keep passing on the tradition that is hunting.................


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## Solocam3D (Jan 14, 2007)

hate em


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## justanotherbuck (Aug 5, 2007)

all im going to say is,the farm i hunt on has ag insurance and he did call the insurance man this year,im no hater some of you will hate me,its none of my business what neighbors shoot,and it is no ones business what i shoot,,,,IN FACT ALL DEER TAISTE THE SAME AND MY KIDS LOVE TO EAT VENISON SO IF IT COMES DOWN THE TRAIL AND IT IS LEGAL TO SHOOT AT AND TO KILL ITS DOWN AND IN THE FREEZER,
im just helping out the farmers


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## Michigan Bob (Oct 26, 2002)

You know around here the people get together at the uncle or grandfathers farm with the guns and hunt. They shoot whats leagel, and pick on the uncle, grandfather, brother , or son about the size of the deer. We get together for dinner with the family and laugh joke take pokes at each other about hunting. And get up and do it again tomorrow, and have a ball so we can go back to our real lives when the season is over. And we really could care less how you make the hunting season so stressful because of the need to try and imposs your theorys on others. So why hate us for what we do we could care less about your hunting ways.


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## trophyhill (Jul 8, 2008)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.


so does that make you a trophy hunter? and let me guess, you are better than everyone else because you only shoot big bucks. does that make you an elitist? just sayin


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## gdcpony (Oct 16, 2007)

If some of those posting here get their way a "legal deer" will be 3.5 years old only.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> It's not that you're taking away only *my* chance of killing it when it's bigger, you're taking away *everyone's* chance of killing it when it's bigger. Who's the greedy one now? The people who would like to see it grow up? Or the people who could take a doe and save the young buck for the people who will really appreciate it later, but can't restrain themselves?


If you honestly cant see the irony in your post then you just dont get it. What makes you think people who choose to shoot a younger buck dont appreciate it? Man some of you just dont get it.


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## justanotherbuck (Aug 5, 2007)

i know how many bucks my great grandfather shot in his lifetime,its right around 60 with gun and bow,I've made it my passion to pass him up,so right now the counter is turning,so if it is legal im taking it.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Me too its amazing the changes that have happened .But I believe the one thing that is lost on those who were not hunting 30 or 40 years ago is that we lived at a time when there were very very few deer of any kind as in just seeing a couple of deer a season was a big deal and if you killed one by the way back then it had to be a buck was a huge accomplishment in its self .I remember the year i took my first buck we killed 19,000 deer in the state for the whole year all seasons combined . Oh yeah those 36 years were adult years of deer hunting I hunted a kid from the time i was about 10 years old but I do not consider the learning child hood years as a serious deer hunting time in my life even though I went every year i would say that if you counted those years we would be real close in time hunting i would have 46 year in that case buct as i said i realy just dont count anything before my first kill . I was deer scarer and misser before then . So in fact I did not count any year before my first kill 36 years ago . But any ways I think the only reason SO many big bucks are being shoot has to do with the massive numbers of deer in the country now and the massive number of hunters as well . I mean we had 300,000 deer hunters that year I took my first deer and the deer herd here was estimated at only 70,000 animals over the entire state so you should have some idea of what i am talking about here.


30+ years here too, and I remember the "lean" years.

It seems that there are more deer than ever before, and back then, everybody was hunting the same deer. Nobody would even question any buck as long as it was legal, and doe shooting was a felony to all hunters.

Things have changed, and it seems that there is a lot of venison to go around.

The only thing horns are good for is to stir the chili.:cocktail:


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

36 years here, and I too remember those "lean" years.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Yep. I got him on state land. It was my first buck that was older than 1.5 (I think he was 3.5). It was way more exciting than killing those little suckers. It changed my life. Have you ever seen a cheesier grin? That was a long time ago. Check out that finger tab.
> View attachment 947408


Killing a deer changed your life? Really???? I feel sorry for you. I really do! I know one other guy like that, a deer changed his life too.....I find it very sad!


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## farmhunter (Dec 1, 2010)

Know what ya' mean...feel about the same. Some people just...trifling like that. And lots of um' are 'proud' of themselves! Go figure!?


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> 36 years here, and I too remember those "lean" years.


Fortunately for me, my hunting started in the early 80's and the herd was plentiful in my neck of the woods. Odd thing was I didn't get my firsdt deer where the herd was plentiful I got one in the old pa 3 day doe season way up in the mountains where the numbers were not as good as where I lived at.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Jarocal said:


> Fortunately for me, my hunting started in the early 80's and the herd was plentiful in my neck of the woods. Odd thing was I didn't get my firsdt deer where the herd was plentiful I got one in the old pa 3 day doe season way up in the mountains where the numbers were not as good as where I lived at.


I know PA had deer hunting seasons for just about as long as there has been a PA and I am glad for you guys .But here in IN. W had zero deer here {as in they were market hunted in our state literally to extinction} deer from the turn of the 1900s till the restocking program back mid century and we did not start having real hunting seasons until the late 1960s to early S. We just had a couple of special small draw hunts prior to that . So Like I said we were not seeing or taking very many deer till the late 1980s. And at that we only took 135,000 deer and that was a record deer harvest


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## beast (Jan 14, 2003)

I have to say in my area there are less deer now than when I was a kid, more pressure by hunters along with more seasons have really cut the population down. Fields that I use to see 50+ deer in the spring may only have 5-10 the last few years.maybe thats why I prefer to take a more Conservative approach to deer hunting.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

beast said:


> I have to say in my area there are less deer now than when I was a kid, more pressure by hunters along with more seasons have really cut the population down. Fields that I use to see 50+ deer in the spring may only have 5-10 the last few years.maybe thats why I prefer to take a more Conservative approach to deer hunting.


Nothing wrong with that approach at all especially where numbers are declining to a point that you have no problem noticing that . My home farm does not get any Does shot off it at all but i will take "A single button buck "a year off it just for meat since it has a 90% chance of leaving anyways. I have a farm 75 miles north with lots of deer and the herd is growing there so I or my hunters will take a few doe from it and I have not noticed a year to year decline at all. Once again its a personal choice and management strategy


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

T-Rage said:


> am i the only one who hates people that shoot spikes and button bucks? i just dont get it. you want meat shoot a doe. these same people are the ones who complain ny cant grow big deer and theyll never shoot one. gets me pissed. sorry but i hate them. i wish we had a 4 pt qdm! i had one guy complaining that he had been seeing the same spike everyday and couldnt shoot it. WHY WOULD YOU . mean while hes got lots of does running round and he just wants to shoot a buck to shoot a buck. and i dont care what you say a spike is not a trophy its a baby!!!!! let them walk.



I am for antler restriction, But as long as it is legal ,how could you hate someone for doing it.Could be a trophy in there book.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I know PA had deer hunting seasons for just about as long as there has been a PA and I am glad for you guys .But here in IN. W had zero deer here {as in they were market hunted in our state literally to extinction} deer from the turn of the 1900s till the restocking program back mid century and we did not start having real hunting seasons until the late 1960s to early S. We just had a couple of special small draw hunts prior to that . So Like I said we were not seeing or taking very many deer till the late 1980s. And at that we only took 135,000 deer and that was a record deer harvest


 Lot of guys here bemoan the fact they can no longer go out and see a few hundred deer a night spotting like they used to. They also don't take into account the large loss of habitat which would sustain a herd over the winter without being overbrowsed. I feel the game commision has done a fairly stand up job in managing the deer herd. I think they could do a better job at working with landowners in trying to gain more access for hunters, but to be honest I do not blame a lot of the landowners for denying access to hunters because of the actions taken by a few. I understand perfectly when someone posts the property for any reason then spends half the fall chasing people off the ground there are already signs up telling people to stay off of. It is disgraceful greed on our part as a hunting community that we only modestly castigate the less than reputable persons who feel that they are entitled to benefit the rewards of someone elses labor without the say of the person who labored to get the property. Honest mistakes do happen espescially when 4 or 5 property lines intersect in a 50 acre woods. It has been my experience though that the majority of the time hunters will try and play that "honest mistake" card with the landowner when they already know they are on property they should not be. Or they will come into the posted land through the one tiny section of adjoining land so they can try and play innocent about not seeing posted signs.

And to keep the thread on topic I don't hate anyone for what game they legally shoot. I do find people who shoot the first small deer to walk by and then cry they never see any big bucks stupid and annoying.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Jarocal said:


> And to keep the thread on topic I don't hate anyone for what game they legally shoot. I do find people who shoot the first small deer to walk by and then cry they never see any big bucks stupid and annoying.


I agree and if some on here would of read some of my earlier posts on this and the poll thread they would see I tell them the best way to shoot a mature or larger deer is to >manage> themselves and their trigger finger. I also am very annoyed with whiners that have no self control and lack the basic hunting /woodsmanship kills needed to take mature deer.


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

This post my friends could be a anti. Looks like a troll at work.


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

I was speaking of post number 1120.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

geekster said:


> This post my friends could be a anti. Looks like a troll at work.


definately!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Skeptic said:


> definately!


They are everywhere they disquise themselves as hunters and argue and call others names and threaten them in IMs


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## harrdae1 (Apr 8, 2010)

you are donky. mind your own buisness some people have no choice but to hunt stateland and may have a challenged family member and can go out only a limited number of times and they cherish that spike or button buck as much as U might a 10 pt and the quiet time in the woods who are you to say anything.


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## waterwolf662 (Dec 5, 2010)

spikes are easy to roost and generally come running into the call at sunup


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## nontypicalclub (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes i do! Its easy for you guys that live in BIG BUCK STATES to say that i live where its brown its down that **** suck if you want something eat kill a dam doe stop letting them walk All i can say is that if you dont let them grow up then we will never have a wall hanger....... and by the way thanks to the ones who let them grow up


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## buckeye 12 ring (Oct 26, 2009)

Looks like this thread struck a nerve. I gave up trying to get my point across on page 4


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

I went out this morning with my 9 year old to kill any deer....button buck or doe or spike, or mature buck...did not matter.....alas, we saw nothing.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> Killing a deer changed your life? Really???? I feel sorry for you. I really do! I know one other guy like that, a deer changed his life too.....I find it very sad!


Then you would really pity me if you knew how I felt about taking my first elk. I think about those mountains every day. I guess some of us are more passionate about our lifestyle than others.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I agree and if some on here would of read some of my earlier posts on this and the poll thread they would see *I tell them the best way to shoot a mature or larger deer is to >manage> themselves and their trigger finger.* I also am very annoyed with whiners that have no self control and lack the basic hunting /woodsmanship kills needed to take mature deer.


Actually I've seen you tell several people, myself included, to take mediocre bucks and not focus on big antlers.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

nontypicalclub said:


> Yes i do! Its easy for you guys that live in BIG BUCK STATES to say that i live where its brown its down that **** suck if you want something eat kill a dam doe stop letting them walk All i can say is that if you dont let them grow up then we will never have a wall hanger....... and by the way thanks to the ones who let them grow up


You keep on passing what you want and those who are happy taking what they want will keep on taking what they want. You control only one trigger finger "Yours" so stick to that and you will get what you want and by the way if you are not seeing or shooting what you want hunt another area a different way than you are now and stop blaming others that are taking legal deer in legal ways blame only the guy who hunts the same places in the same way expecting different results and that would be you..


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Then you would really pity me if you knew how I felt about taking my first elk. I think about those mountains every day. I guess some of us are more passionate about our lifestyle than others.


LOL you only kid yourself. I am as passionate about hunting as anyone you will ever meet! However, there is nothing Hunting wise, that I would declare a 'life changing' event! If something hunting in your life....defines your life....then that is sad! And with that said....then yes, I do pity you! You miss out on so much!


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> LOL you only kid yourself. I am as passionate about hunting as anyone you will ever meet! However, there is nothing Hunting wise, that I would declare a 'life changing' event! If something hunting in your life....defines your life....then that is sad! And with that said....then yes, I do pity you! *You miss out on so much!*


For instance? Here is your chance to enlighten me.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Actually I've seen you tell several people, myself included, to take mediocre bucks and not focus on big antlers.


I told you to build or climb up the ladder not to jump too high that you will not make it . Man you just do not want to get it a high school QB with an average team will never make a successful jump strait away to an NFL starter or win the super bowl. So what i am saying is start out realistically and when you are consistently taking a good target animal that is hunt able then make the next move up in size/age and difficulty . You need to be realistic as do those guys that think they are ready to hunt a 5,5 year old master of the woods when all they have taken is 1.5 or a 2.5 year olds that just stumbled by without having that buck targeted specifically I.E. it was just dumb luck buck that stumbled by .That by the way is called an analogy! 

And I see by your answer that you still refuse to listen or help yourself all you do is argue and fight and want the impossible and that is for every hunter in your area to just pass up bucks till there are so many old ones they are falling down over each other and one stumbles by you Wake up the problem is you and your mind set not the other hunters and what they take.

I am telling you to slowly climb the buck ladder you may need to stay on the same rung and get some more experiance a few years and that is ok its not a failure to do so and get better , and smarter as well you will actually still be passing up most of the the bucks in the area .Also find new hunting ground or take a out of state deer hunt to some state or outfitter that has plenty of big bucks on top buck produceing land


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> For instance? Here is your chance to enlighten me.


How about life. Man, as important part of my life as hunting is....about 1000 hrs hunting a year, it wouldn't be the same with out friends, family, and work to make it all possible. Having those things....they are what's important. A single deer could never hold a candle to any of that! And how one could change a person's life.....aside from selling it for enough money to retire.....I just cannot understand!


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

I love, desk.

I love...carpet. 

I love lamp....I love lamp....


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> I told you to build or climb up the ladder not to jump too high that you will not make it . Man you just do not want to get it a high school QB with an average team will never make a successful jump strait away to an NFL starter or win the super bowl. So what i am saying is start out realistically and when you are consistently taking a good target animal that is hunt able then make the next move up in size/age and difficulty . You need to be realistic as do those guys that think they are ready to hunt a 5,5 year old master of the woods when all they have taken is 1.5 or a 2.5 year olds that just stumbled by without having that buck targeted specifically I.E. it was just dumb luck buck that stumbled by .That by the way is called an analogy!
> 
> And I see by your answer that you still refuse to listen or help yourself all you do is argue and fight and want the impossible and that is for every hunter in your area to just pass up bucks till there are so many old ones they are falling down over each other and one stumbles by you Wake up the problem is you and your mind set not the other hunters and what they take.
> 
> I am telling you to slowly climb the buck ladder you may need to stay on the same rung and get some more experiance a few years and that is ok its not a failure to do so and get better , and smarter as well you will actually still be passing up most of the the bucks in the area .Also find new hunting ground or take a out of state deer hunt to some state or outfitter that has plenty of big bucks on top buck produceing land


I've killed more 1.5 year old and 2.5 year old bucks during high school and college than I want to admit nuke. I just got to the point where it was too easy and those little guys didn't excite me anymore. That's why I can't understand why grown men with plenty of hunting experience wouldn't want to increase their standards and want more of a challenge. The only thing keeping me from getting to the top of the ladder is the lack of big boys on our farm. And I don't have any interest in killing a big buck on an outfitter's property just so I can brag and hang him on my wall. I like to do it myself and earn it. I'm fortunate to have a farm with some deer on it. I refuse to kill the 3.5 year olds on our place because I know they have more growing to do. I think it's funny how you assume everyone is so inexperienced or a poor hunter. I'm doing the right things. I get close to every buck I get on my cameras, except that one big boy this year. But even the best, most dedicated hunters have nocturnal ghost bucks that give them a challenge. That's what it's about for me. Bringing down that 5.5 year old master of the woods. Not settling for a mediocre buck just so I can fill my tag or kill it before the neighbor can.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> How about life. Man, as important part of my life as hunting is....about 1000 hrs hunting a year, it wouldn't be the same with out friends, family, and work to make it all possible. Having those things....they are what's important. A single deer could never hold a candle to any of that! And how one could change a person's life.....aside from selling it for enough money to retire.....*I just cannot understand!*


And you are as passionate about hunting as anyone I'll ever meet? I'll agree that my wife and my parents and my dog and my hunting buddies are the most important things in my life. But are you seriously saying that your first deer, or the first deer you saw your dad take, or the first deer you saw your wife, son, daughter, best friend take didn't give you a different outlook on life? I'm not just talking about the deer as in the hide and the meat and the antlers, but the whole experience. My life went a different direction after I had my first experience with the D O Double G (that's the name of my 123 4/8 buck). It sparked my obsession and if he hadn't wandered by my tree I might still be stuck on the bottom rung of nuke's ladder.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

mn5503 said:


> I love, desk.
> 
> I love...carpet.
> 
> I love lamp....I love lamp....


Loud Noises!!!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I've killed more 1.5 year old and 2.5 year old bucks during high school and college than I want to admit nuke. I just got to the point where it was too easy and those little guys didn't excite me anymore. That's why I can't understand why grown men with plenty of hunting experience wouldn't want to increase their standards and want more of a challenge. The only thing keeping me from getting to the top of the ladder is the lack of big boys on our farm. And I don't have any interest in killing a big buck on an outfitter's property just so I can brag and hang him on my wall. I like to do it myself and earn it. I'm fortunate to have a farm with some deer on it. I refuse to kill the 3.5 year olds on our place because I know they have more growing to do. I think it's funny how you assume everyone is so inexperienced or a poor hunter. I'm doing the right things. I get close to every buck I get on my cameras, except that one big boy this year. But even the best, most dedicated hunters have nocturnal ghost bucks that give them a challenge. That's what it's about for me. Bringing down that 5.5 year old master of the woods. Not settling for a mediocre buck just so I can fill my tag or kill it before the neighbor can.


Like I said 8 or 10 random bucks that stumbled in did not make you some super hunter and the fact that you did not target and kill a single 3.5 year old buck tells me you never took the next logical step and will continue to beat your head on the wall and you are still too busy blaming others and wanting them to change to try anything new and where are all your mature bucks going on your land with you passing up all them 3.5 year olds your stories just keep falling flat and are filled with blaming of others and no real responsibility to make your own changes and take the steps you need to get to where you want .Be honest how old are you 20 & 25 ??.


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## Two Bear (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm sitting here just shaking my head at this thread, unbelievable. It can be argued that the pursuit of large animals could ultimately be the down fall of hunting as we know it. The beauty of a large animal is in it's rarity. When it becomes common place, it is no more a trophy than anything else. I like to hunt, don't care what other folks shoot, and if they happen along a trophy animal, than it's the thrill of a lifetime. Hating somebody for shooting a spike buck? Really? Wow, what have we become?


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

waterwolf662 said:


> I enjoy gut shooting spikes and trailing the clear bubble path and watching them bed down and die in agony at a distance.


Wow. Heck of a first post! What is a clear bubble path anyway? You seem very deserving of the triangle. 



geekster said:


> This post my friends could be a anti. Looks like a troll at work.


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## lovetohunt93 (Aug 3, 2010)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Loud Noises!!!
> View attachment 948022


Hey! Whered ya get those clothes? The toliet store?


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> And you are as passionate about hunting as anyone I'll ever meet? I'll agree that my wife and my parents and my dog and my hunting buddies are the most important things in my life. But are you seriously saying that your first deer, or the first deer you saw your dad take, or the first deer you saw your wife, son, daughter, best friend take *didn't give you a different outlook on life? * I'm not just talking about the deer as in the hide and the meat and the antlers, but the whole experience. My life went a different direction after I had my first experience with the D O Double G (that's the name of my 123 4/8 buck). It sparked my obsession and if he hadn't wandered by my tree I might still be stuck on the bottom rung of nuke's ladder.


Hell no! It's just an animal!:doh: Granted...all fond memories, however, they are just that.....memories! I value the time shared around the camp fires WAY above the actual kill of any particular animal.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> Hell no! It's just an animal!:doh: Granted...all fond memories, however, they are just that.....memories! I value the time shared around the camp fires WAY above the actual kill of any particular animal.


Hmm... I think people will question your passion for deer hunting from now on. When I shot my buck last fall I had the largest adrenaline rush of my life. I've never been around a campfire that made me feel that way.


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## silentdeathtx4 (Aug 2, 2010)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I've killed more 1.5 year old and 2.5 year old bucks during high school and college than I want to admit nuke. I just got to the point where it was too easy and those little guys didn't excite me anymore. That's why I can't understand why grown men with plenty of hunting experience wouldn't want to increase their standards and want more of a challenge. The only thing keeping me from getting to the top of the ladder is the lack of big boys on our farm. And I don't have any interest in killing a big buck on an outfitter's property just so I can brag and hang him on my wall. I like to do it myself and earn it. I'm fortunate to have a farm with some deer on it. I refuse to kill the 3.5 year olds on our place because I know they have more growing to do. I think it's funny how you assume everyone is so inexperienced or a poor hunter. I'm doing the right things. I get close to every buck I get on my cameras, except that one big boy this year. But even the best, most dedicated hunters have nocturnal ghost bucks that give them a challenge. That's what it's about for me. Bringing down that 5.5 year old master of the woods. Not settling for a mediocre buck just so I can fill my tag or kill it before the neighbor can.


You are not a deer hunter, You are a horn hunter, Not all hunters hunt for the reasons you do, A lot of people hunt for the meat, Why would someone hunting for meat pass up a deer? Can you awnser me that question.


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## silentdeathtx4 (Aug 2, 2010)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Hmm... I think people will question your passion for deer hunting from now on. When I shot my buck last fall I had the largest adrenaline rush of my life. I've never been around a campfire that made me feel that way.


If your in it for the adrenaline rush, why dont you join the army and go fight in Iraq like I did, I promise you that you will get more adrenaline rushes than you want.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Like I said 8 or 10 random bucks that stumbled in did not make you some super hunter and the fact that you did not target and kill a single 3.5 year old buck tells me you never took the next logical step and will continue to beat your head on the wall and you are still too busy blaming others and wanting them to change to try anything new and where are all your mature bucks going on your land with you passing up all them 3.5 year olds your stories just keep falling flat and are filled with blaming of others and no real responsibility to make your own changes and take the steps you need to get to where you want .Be honest how old are you 20 & 25 ??.


I'm 30. This season I did one better than target and kill the largest 3.5 year old buck on the place. I passed him up several times. The last time he was sniffing my bottom tree step. I think those 3.5 year olds will be back next year. I have pictures of them at 2.5 and 3.5 but you never know what happens to them over the winter, spring and summer. We had the pow-wow with our neighbors 2 seasons ago so it makes sense that the little bucks we passed up would be 3.5 now. I'll make a deal with you nuke, if I don't get close to a 4.5 year old on our farm next season I will start taking your advise.


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## poorman (Dec 6, 2006)

Skeptic said:


> Hell no! It's just an animal!:doh: Granted...all fond memories, however, they are just that.....memories! I value the time shared around the camp fires WAY above the actual kill of any particular animal.


I'm with you Skeptic. I went to hunt with a friend this year i have not seen in quite a while. After the morning hunt we went back to a small cabin he had built himself and started up a campfire. Spent the whole day just talking and enjoying the outdoors. Hell we didnt even go out and hunt that afternoon. Some of my best memories are of unsuccesful hunts with dear friends.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I'm 30. This season I did one better than target and kill the largest 3.5 year old buck on the place. I passed him up several times. The last time he was sniffing my bottom tree step. I think those 3.5 year olds will be back next year. I have pictures of them at 2.5 and 3.5 but you never know what happens to them over the winter, spring and summer. We had the pow-wow with our neighbors 2 seasons ago so it makes sense that the little bucks we passed up would be 3.5 now. I'll make a deal with you nuke, if I don't get close to a 4.5 year old on our farm next season I will start taking your advise.


Simply your call and your hunt But a 4.5 year old buck ain't a baby that will stand and smell the bottom step of your ladder. It will weighing FD well over 200# and have a gut like a sumo wrestler , it will have 140 or plus racks unless its missing two or three tines from fighting with good mass and and will not likely just be beeping around in Oct like a younger deer ,it will be a survivor that did not live like the reat to get that old ,but there will come a few times though when you will get your chance a couple of times a year if you actually have it figured out but we will wait and see about that . LOL

Good luck


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## 173BC (Mar 10, 2010)

Here is one instance where shooting a trophy animal will change you life. Helgie Eymondson shot a buck in 2007 that changed his life, made him wealthy and famous. 280"-ish will change your life, your foolish if you think otherwise.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Hmm... I think people will question your passion for deer hunting from now on. When I shot my buck last fall I had the largest adrenaline rush of my life. I've never been around a campfire that made me feel that way.


I could really give a rats ass what strangers think of my passion for deer hunting. I've hunted with about 100 guys from AT(literally) and I doubt any of them would question my passion. This year my group of friends really hasn't taken many deer....about 1/3rd of what we usually do....and for various reasons. The highlight was when my buddy Tom took a 155" 8 pt with his bow....the reason this is the highlight isn't because of the measurement of the bucks rack...it's becasue it's the first deer Tom has taken in 2 years....and he's suffered 2 heart attacks in the 2 1/2 weeks since.....I value every minute I get to spend with my buddy and the actual deer itself means very little. Hell, the biggest shed I've ever found was from that buck....after he shot it I gave it to him. I can't wait til next weekend when I can go down and spend the weekend in camp with him again...thank GOD he's still alive! Way more to life than a buck dude...WAY MORE!


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I'm 30. This season I did one better than target and kill the largest 3.5 year old buck on the place. I passed him up several times. The last time he was sniffing my bottom tree step. I think those 3.5 year olds will be back next year. I have pictures of them at 2.5 and 3.5 but you never know what happens to them over the winter, spring and summer. We had the pow-wow with our neighbors 2 seasons ago so it makes sense that the little bucks we passed up would be 3.5 now. I'll make a deal with you nuke, if I don't get close to a 4.5 year old on our farm next season I will start taking your advise.


I think some of your misguiding is reading too much into QDM. Not every button buck will become a trophy, not even 25 % of them will. I think you don't understand how far bucks travel during rut. My friend killed a buck this rut in NE Indiana that a guy had been seeing all early bow ( october) 11 miles away. Your ideal has become antlers, your way of judging a hunter has become jaded by antler size. Antler size doesn't mean a thing to be honest, its just has hard , maybe harder to kill a 5 year old doe as it is a 3 year old buck, don't believe me, how many 5 year old does have you shot ( with bow ) ? Same goes for a 4 year old and older buck, no matter how big a rack he has a 4 plus year old buck is hard to kill, until the rut comes. 

Instead of knocking other hunters, which is division , try really understanding that in the end, it isn't really going to matter a lick how many p & Y's you killed , nor how many button bucks. What will depend is how you treated them and how you lived your life. 

I've shot button bucks and I still will , so you hate me, but I'll guarentee I"ve shot a heck of a lot more mature bucks and does then you have. I have a landowner who says " you hunt, you shoot deer, don't care if they just came out the hind end, shoot em if you want to keep hunting here". So I do, don't want to lose a place I get 2-3 deer a year for the freezer, rabbits, squirrel and turkey, not to mention the trapping part. Yep, he's my boss out there. 

People don't always hunt for the same reason you do, remember that, so long as they are legal I have no problem at all.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Uncle Bucky said:


> I think some of your misguiding is reading too much into QDM. Not every button buck will become a trophy, not even 25 % of them will. I think you don't understand how far bucks travel during rut. My friend killed a buck this rut in NE Indiana that a guy had been seeing all early bow ( october) 11 miles away. Your ideal has become antlers, your way of judging a hunter has become jaded by antler size. Antler size doesn't mean a thing to be honest, its just has hard , maybe harder to kill a 5 year old doe as it is a 3 year old buck, don't believe me, how many 5 year old does have you shot ( with bow ) ? Same goes for a 4 year old and older buck, no matter how big a rack he has a 4 plus year old buck is hard to kill, until the rut comes.
> 
> Instead of knocking other hunters, which is division , try really understanding that in the end, it isn't really going to matter a lick how many p & Y's you killed , nor how many button bucks. What will depend is how you treated them and how you lived your life.
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Skeptic said:


> I could really give a rats ass what strangers think of my passion for deer hunting. I've hunted with about 100 guys from AT(literally) and I doubt any of them would question my passion. This year my group of friends really hasn't taken many deer....about 1/3rd of what we usually do....and for various reasons. The highlight was when my buddy Tom took a 155" 8 pt with his bow....the reason this is the highlight isn't because of the measurement of the bucks rack...it's becasue it's the first deer Tom has taken in 2 years....and he's suffered 2 heart attacks in the 2 1/2 weeks since.....I value every minute I get to spend with my buddy and the actual deer itself means very little. Hell, the biggest shed I've ever found was from that buck....after he shot it I gave it to him. I can't wait til next weekend when I can go down and spend the weekend in camp with him again...thank GOD he's still alive! Way more to life than a buck dude...WAY MORE!


Good thoughts there


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Simply your call and your hunt But a 4.5 year old buck ain't a baby that will stand and smell the bottom step of your ladder. It will weighing FD well over 200# and have a gut like a sumo wrestler , it will have 140 or plus racks unless its missing two or three tines from fighting with good mass and and will not likely just be beeping around in Oct like a younger deer ,it will be a survivor that did not live like the reat to get that old ,but there will come a few times though when you will get your chance a couple of times a year if you actually have it figured out but we will wait and see about that . LOL
> 
> Good luck


I can't wait! How about this, if I shoot a 4.5 year old buck next fall you have to make it your avatar picture for 1 week. If I don't, I will make mine whatever you want for 1 week. Sound fair?


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## Quartermoons (Oct 14, 2010)

Not going to direct this at anyone who has participated on the thread, but from first hand experience. If you believe that every hunting situation results in being able to age/score every deer that presents an opportunity, you are either not hunting the way I do, or you haven't done it for near as long. Let alone all the subtle factors that can result in deer being misjudged significantly. And that can lead to serious problems for guys who quantify their success by a B&C score. I've personally lost a friend because the buck he shot wasn't as big as he thought it was. So he gave it away and kept hunting. Nor is it an isolated incident in my experience. Lot of guys become ashamed to say they got excited, or just plain made a mistake and find a way to rationalize breaking the law.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Uncle Bucky said:


> I think some of your misguiding is reading too much into QDM. Not every button buck will become a trophy, not even 25 % of them will. I think you don't understand how far bucks travel during rut. My friend killed a buck this rut in NE Indiana that a guy had been seeing all early bow ( october) 11 miles away. *Your ideal has become antlers*, your way of judging a hunter has become jaded by antler size. Antler size doesn't mean a thing to be honest, its just has hard , maybe harder to kill a 5 year old doe as it is a 3 year old buck, don't believe me, how many 5 year old does have you shot ( with bow ) ? Same goes for a 4 year old and older buck, no matter how big a rack he has a 4 plus year old buck is hard to kill, until the rut comes.
> 
> Instead of knocking other hunters, which is division , try really understanding that in the end, it isn't really going to matter a lick how many p & Y's you killed , nor how many button bucks. What will depend is how you treated them and how you lived your life.
> 
> ...


My ideal isn't antler size. It's body size, age and the challenge presented by old bucks. Big antlers usually come along with that. And I don't hate you, just disagree with you.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I can't wait! How about this, if I shoot a 4.5 year old buck next fall you have to make it your avatar picture for 1 week. If I don't, I will make mine whatever you want for 1 week. Sound fair?


You are just stuck on making hunting a contest and proving how much 'better' you are. Are you really that vain?


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I can't wait! How about this, if I shoot a 4.5 year old buck next fall you have to make it your avatar picture for 1 week. If I don't, I will make mine whatever you want for 1 week. Sound fair?


Not a chance I am not playing that game . Besides I have seen more 2.5 & 3.5 year old bucks with 160 inch antlers than you know over the years so without a jaw bone to age I ain't playing that one .I was born but not yesterday I have seen what many guys try to sell as a 4.5 year old buck or older.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

silentdeathtx4 said:


> If your in it for the adrenaline rush, why dont you join the army and go fight in Iraq like I did, *I promise you that you will get more adrenaline rushes than you want.*


I don't think I could handle it. I'm not man enough to be military material. I don't even make a good internet tough guy. I appreciate what you guys do though.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Shouldernuke! said:


> Not a chance I am not playing that game . Besides I have seen more 2.5 & 3.5 year old bucks with 160 inch antlers than you know over the years so without a jaw bone to age I ain't playing that one .I was born but not yesterday I have seen what many guys try to sell as a 4.5 year old buck or older.


What if I present you with 3 years worth of trail camera pictures of the buck? Come on, it's only 1 week. The wager goes both ways! Or do you have too much confidence in my skills?!


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> I don't think I could handle it. I'm not man enough to be military material. I don't even make a good internet tough guy. I appreciate what you guys do though.


Oh I see....so you want everyone to live to your standards...but when a real challenge is put forth to you to 'man up', your gonna play the "I'm not man enough" card???? You really think you have any place to be judging anyone else????


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> You are just stuck on making hunting a contest and proving how much 'better' you are. Are you really that vain?


It's just a friendly wager. I'm trying to make this more friendly and have some fun with the nuke. You're just pouting because I called your "passion" into question.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

Mathias said:


> Hate's a strong word. I wish they wouldn't but it's outta my control....except on my properties!


I'm almost on the same page as the OP, but I have messed up and shot button's. I do get mad at myself when this happens.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> Oh I see....so you want everyone to live to your standards...but when a real challenge is put forth to you to 'man up', your gonna play the "I'm not man enough" card???? You really think you have any place to be judging anyone else????


Because I didn't join the military? That's a stretch but whatever. I was just trying to thank that guy for his service.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> It's just a friendly wager. I'm trying to make this more friendly and have some fun with the nuke. You're just pouting because I called your "passion" into question.


LOL I could care less what you think of my passion....I've addressed that. Try again.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> Because I didn't join the military? That's a stretch but whatever. I was just trying to thank that guy for his service.


You want to go on and an on about we should all shoot what YOU want us to shoot because of the adrenaline rush right???? I think the guy made a hell of good point! Your mouth is now writing checks that your butt can't cash.:doh:! And I doubt you get that...it's a phrase that an ATer used to use from a few years ago...but I find quite fitting here and now.


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> My ideal isn't antler size. It's body size, age and the challenge presented by old bucks. Big antlers usually come along with that. And I don't hate you, just disagree with you.


Why would you disagree ????? I doubt you have any idea who i am and how i hunt. I don't understand you. Seems you shot a buck close to a P n Y and now you've become some Tecomate buck expert. Thsese shows have ruined hunting. Challenge in shooting large bodied deer, bet you wouldn't believe the fork horn I almost took 5 years ago but got shot a mile away. 7 years old, yep had hardly any teeth, dressed out at 190lbs but had a very tall fork horn rack. yep age gets big antlers, you've got it LMAO

I've shot deer from 60lbs to 200lbs, from 5 months old to 6 years old. They all mean something to me, I treat their lives all the same and respect and honor and gratitude for them all.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Uncle Bucky said:


> Why would you disagree ????? I doubt you have any idea who i am and how i hunt. I don't understand you. Seems you shot a buck close to a P n Y and now you've become some Tecomate buck expert. Thsese shows have ruined hunting. Challenge in shooting large bodied deer, bet you wouldn't believe the fork horn I almost took 5 years ago but got shot a mile away. 7 years old, yep had hardly any teeth, dressed out at 190lbs but had a very tall fork horn rack. yep age gets big antlers, you've got it LMAO
> 
> I've shot deer from 60lbs to 200lbs, from 5 months old to 6 years old. They all mean something to me, I treat their lives all the same and respect and honor and gratitude for them all.


That's why I underlined usually. Because an old fork is rare or "unusual".


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> You want to go on and an on about we should all shoot what YOU want us to shoot because of the adrenaline rush right???? I think the guy made a hell of good point! Your mouth is now writing checks that your butt can't cash.:doh:! And I doubt you get that...it's a phrase that an ATer used to use from a few years ago...but I find quite fitting here and now.


My mouth never said I could deal with being away from my home for months or years to battle military combatants or keep the peace. So how does me thanking that dude for keeping my freedom relate to you killing spikes? I'm having trouble drawing a correlation.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

123 4/8 P&Y said:


> My mouth never said I could deal with being away from my home for months or years to battle military combatants or keep the peace. So how does me thanking that dude for keeping my freedom relate to you killing spikes? I'm having trouble drawing a correlation.


I thought real hard....and realized out of about 100 deer killed I have NEVER killed a spike...go figure. 

The point was you want everyone to live to YOUR standards in killing deer that they have a legal right to kill in order to get a similar adrenaline rush as you do......correct??? So if that's the case, maybe you should go overseas and live up to that standard...someone elses standard and get your adrenaline rush that way.:wink: 

You seem to want to make all these extra rules for everyone else in life....in order to match your own....and make the possibility of YOU shooting a bigger buck easier.....at least that's sure how it seems.


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## tom.336 (Sep 27, 2010)

now, now children....play nice


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## justanotherbuck (Aug 5, 2007)

tom.336 said:


> now, now children....play nice


i go hunting for a couple of hours and holy jesus theres two pages of muble gumble


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> I thought real hard....and realized out of about 100 deer killed I have NEVER killed a spike...go figure.
> 
> The point was you want everyone to live to YOUR standards in killing deer that they have a legal right to kill in order to get a similar adrenaline rush as you do......correct??? So if that's the case, maybe you should go overseas and live up to that standard...someone elses standard and get your adrenaline rush that way.:wink:
> 
> You seem to want to make all these extra rules for everyone else in life....in order to match your own....and make the possibility of YOU shooting a bigger buck easier.....at least that's sure how it seems.


So you're comparing him suggesting to me to fight in Iraq to me suggesting to other hunters to try passing young bucks? I still kind of think that's a stretch and if that's where you want to go then see you later. I have my own property to hunt and I'm confident that it will be good deer hunting in a few years because of the handshake coop we made with our neighbors. It's not like I think people passing up deer in other states and counties will make my hunting better. But it will give everyone who would like a chance at a bigger buck in those areas a better opportunity. What's wrong with me suggesting to other hunters to try leaving their bow on the hook next time a young buck walks by? Why not leave something for someone else? I didn't take offense to silentdeathtx4 when he suggested I try fighting in Iraq. I simply stated that I wasn't man enough and thanked him for what he did. Why do you brown and downers get so offended when we suggest you try a little responsible herd management?


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