# Collegiate trials saga



## sambow (Mar 26, 2005)

Wow thats awesome! sadly I'll admit i didn't expect the USCA to cave just because of what I heard, but im glad they did!


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Nope just learned a few minutes ago that the USCA board reviewed the case and revoked the extension. The original extension was not given by USCA but by United States International University Sports Federation (USIUSF) I think not sure, but it was the organization that the USCA director said established the deadline. 

This is really strange the girls were initially told the strict deadline was to get Visa's, then to get plane tickets, then that it was set by the USIUSF all these have been discredited and still no flexibility. Someone needs to put out a press release as to exactly why an extension couldn't be granted and publish who exactly set this deadline. "Because I said so isn't good enough".


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## kabnt2005 (Dec 31, 2010)

Nicely said:


> Nope just learned a few minutes ago that the USCA board reviewed the case and revoked the extension. The original extension was not given by USCA but by United States International University Sports Federation (USIUSF) I think not sure, but it was the organization that the USCA director said established the deadline.
> 
> This is really strange the girls were initially told the strict deadline was to get Visa's, then to get plane tickets, then that it was set by the USIUSF all these have been discredited and still no flexibility. Someone needs to put out a press release as to exactly why an extension couldn't be granted and publish who exactly set this deadline. "Because I said so isn't good enough".


You know exactly who denied the extension and knowing her, "Because I said so" is good enough for her. And that's all you'll ever get out of her. This whole thing is a huge joke.


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

UG. I'm sorry guys. I was hoping you ya'll might ACTUALLY have a chance given your arguements and efforts. I would have been surprised, based on different people's experiences with USCA and the Director, but I was hoping and thought "just maybe... maybe THIS will be the time." Sigh.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Kendal had her medal taken away...............they determined she was too short. Sorry but not far off.

Just a note to the board of directors you do realize the director is speaking for you? Was there a conference? The director indicated in an email that:

"The US Collegiate Archery Association's board of directors have reviewed this matter and have made the final decision."

If this is the case it's a little easier to swallow knowing it was discussed and voted on by a group, but there should have been athlete input.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

sounds like a good attorney with some time and the knowledge on how to file a TRO based on the "Stevens" act could play merry hell with this situation

just sayin......


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## Gatto12 (Feb 14, 2006)

Jim C has a very good IDEA!!! The director of the USCA picks favorites and doesn't take care of many athletes. She wants to give "other archers a chance to travel and experience tournaments on an international level" rather then send the best archers we have to represent our COUNTRY and bring back many medals. It is a total JOKE!


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> sounds like a good attorney with some time and the knowledge on how to file a TRO based on the "Stevens" act could play merry hell with this situation
> 
> just sayin......


Exactly what I was thinking Jim. Seems there are violations of the Ted Stevens Act happening all over archery not just in one organization. Hope someone takes some legal action in this case. Good luck to who ever does cause it will continue until someone takes action.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Interesting advice on the stevens act. Here's a couple bites I pulled out of it:

* with fair notice and opportunity for a hearing to any amateur athlete, coach, trainer, manager, administrator, or official before declaring the individual ineligible to participate; [emphasis added]



An athlete who believes that an NGB has improperly denied his or her opportunity to participate may file a grievance with the NGB. If the NGB and the athlete can't resolve their differences, the complaint goes to arbitration. An outside arbitrator is appointed to hear the complaint; the process is a bit like a lawsuit, but with more informal rules and a much quicker timeline.

The first paragraph wasn't done. The second wasn't provided as an option. Isn't it part of a NGB (USCA) to inform it's athletes of their appeal rights in a case like this? The major complaint of the Ladies is no one will hear them out. It's all been done in pieces. With a director telling them in effect "get away from me".

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know the answers but it is interesting


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

Landed in AZ said:


> Exactly what I was thinking Jim. Seems there are violations of the Ted Stevens Act happening all over archery not just in one organization. Hope someone takes some legal action in this case. Good luck to who ever does cause it will continue until someone takes action.


That's a terribly strong accusation to make with no examples.


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

The problem is, I am not sure the Stevens Act applies. Since USCA went out on its own and is no longer a part of the USAA (and therefore the USOC) umbrella, it may not qualify. Yet another potential problem that people glossed over during the split. I honestly don't know.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

KJarchery said:


> The problem is, I am not sure the Stevens Act applies. Since USCA went out on its own and is no longer a part of the USAA (and therefore the USOC) umbrella, it may not qualify. Yet another potential problem that people glossed over during the split. I honestly don't know.


An interesting take-you may be correct. Perhaps implied good faith/fiduciary relationship might be the avenue

Just speculating-nothing I post should be taken as legal advice


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

It's time to once again beg and plead that college archery be allowed to return to USAA... or at a minimum that USAA be allowed to re-create a collegiate division so that it can compete with USCA for members. Right now, for collegiate archery, USCA is the only game in town, and leadership is destroying the spirit of the division and of the athletes. It just doesn't have to be this complicated and director driven. It should be about fun, and competition, and friends, and communication, and growth... not rules and finances and control (with no meaningful oversight by membership).


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## sambow (Mar 26, 2005)

KJarchery said:


> It's time to once again beg and plead that college archery be allowed to return to USAA... or at a minimum that USAA be allowed to re-create a collegiate division so that it can compete with USCA for members. Right now, for collegiate archery, USCA is the only game in town, and leadership is destroying the spirit of the division and of the athletes. It just doesn't have to be this complicated and director driven. It should be about fun, and competition, and friends, and communication, and growth... not rules and finances and control (with no meaningful oversight by membership).


Agreed! I dont think that would be an easy task after everything that happened with the original split from USAA....you would think if enough of the members complained and begged to come back maybe they would do somthing


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

The split of USCA from USAA was indeed nasty, and totally unnecessary. There isn't anything USCA is doing now that could not have been done under USAA. There is now no oversight of the USCA Board. At one time, the General Assembly of the clubs in USCA had the right to issue directives to the Board. But the General Assembly was dissolved when the Board rewrote the Bylaws. There is a Justice Committee within USCA to handle disputes, but that Committee is appointed by the Board itself. I too would welcome a return to USAA.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

It would appear that the USCA was created not to enhance the college ranks, but to restrict and protect. Follow the money. I encourage Easton to step his foot and get this cleared up, now. And ANOTHER unsolicited observation: many colleges and universities do not want an archery club because it is "shooting" and therefore, violent. So the school wish to present themselves at peace loving hippies. All the while their football teams are smashing the brains out of their opponents, which is not violent at all, simply sport.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

This latest dispute leaves me sad. I shot CAP in 2007-2008 and it was fun, kids flinging arrows between lectures and finals. It seems politics, in-fighting, and power struggles are the rule not the exception these days. The removal and closing of threads, lack of openness most troubling - I hope an Archery-Spring isn't necessary. Maybe this mess will be sorted out before my ten year old is in college, or not.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

rpdjr45... UC Berkeley is proud to be home to the best peace-loving, tie-dyed, barefoot, tree-hugging, vegan-chomping hippies in the world. We also have a football team that is... er... sort of good, but can smash brains with the best. We are also home to one of the largest collegiate archery clubs in the country, which performed exceptionally well at collegiate nationals (USIAC) this year. Sorry, about hijacking the thread. Just had to let it out. OK, back to our regular program.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

We contacted John Ruger who is a legal rep for olympic and other athletes who fall under a NGB. Things looked very promising yesterday but I just got off the phone with him and it looks as if we have no case through him based on the way the USCA is set up. It is not technically a NGB after the split, so it does not fall under the Stevens Act. We could pursue other legal action but he suggested it would be hard to win and would not be resolved soon. We don't have the resources to do this.

I can tell you John Ruger did an outstanding job and is very knowledgeable. He spent all day with this and gave us a straight up answer, something the USCA has yet to do. Thanks to all who helped we received phone calls from all over the country hoping we would win. We didn't but we tried.


Thank you and God Bless


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

I couldn't go to USIAC this year, because of other obligations on campus. But I did get a phone call from my Team, which was on the field during the time that all the WUG stuff was going down. My Team asked me if it would be possible to get an enrollment verification that day from the UC Berkeley Registrar for one of the Cal recurve women who had placed rather well in the Qualification Round. If I could get such verification, then she could go to China as part of the WUG Team, because the women who placed ahead of her did not have enrollment verifications. I could not get such a verification because the Registrar's Office is closed and locked down tight on weekends. But even if I had been able to do so, she was ranked 8th. Since she was also passed over, this means that USCA is reaching down even further just to find someone with paperwork. As much as I love my Team and my player, I must admit that the three athletes who should be on the WUG Team are the highest ranking three. They worked for it, they came through in competition, they deserve it. At this time, it seems that the issue is not about who earned the right, or who deserves the right, or who can best represent our country. The issue seems to be about power and control. On the bottom of every message we get from USCA, it says "serving the Customer: College Athletes". In what way is this USCA action "serving the College Athlete"? I think the members of the USCA Board of Directors have lost their perspective. To the members of the Board, I would like to say this: Shame on you. The members of USCA elected you to protect their interests, and you have betrayed them. The members elected you, so you work for them. You hired the Executive Director, so she works for you. I think that somewhere in the mixture these roles have been reversed. For an organization that is so concerned about gaining new membership, I think you have found a sure-fire way to lose it.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

What professor Lieu said.

That sums up the entire situation of the WUG trials and the status of the USCA. Bravo!! Can I print and frame it?


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## kid386 (Mar 3, 2009)

Look I understand this entire situation sucks, but seriously I'm a college archer, and I have fun with what I do (and I do admit, I suck I'm not one of the best, and being on the top 10 is pretty much never going to happen, but I do this for fun and that's what it is suppose to be all about). But of course first and foremost we are college students. Do you think professors will just let their students slide if paperwork or a paper or homework in general isn't completed on time? Do you think the University would allow their students to just turn in paperwork after the dead line and still accept it? I don't know about the rest of the country, but I come from a university that is pretty strict on their deadlines, including the professors, if it is late you're getting an 0, unless you spoke with the professor before hand and they have OK'ed it. 

Seriously, you can't complain and blame other people if you didn't complete your paper work on time or in general read your paperwork. Again I compare it to school, you can't turn in a half completed paper or make up a different assignment because you didn't read the directions carefully. As my professor likes to say no one wants to take personal responsibility of their own acts now, and sadly it is true. It is essentially a blame game now. In addition, if a professor or in this case the director of college archery started taking in paper work late what kind of precedent does that set for the future, and not only that what does that say about us as college students/archers, that we can not get paper work in on time and expect to be given a exception each time? 

Again this entire situation sucks, but think about the people who did complete their paperwork on time and such, they did it, and shouldn't be punished and not able to go anymore because others didn't.

At the same time I understand we aren't bringing the best of the best, so again it just sucks.


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

kid386 said:


> Look I understand this entire situation sucks, but seriously I'm a college archer, and I have fun with what I do (and I do admit, I suck I'm not one of the best, and being on the top 10 is pretty much never going to happen, but I do this for fun and that's what it is suppose to be all about). But of course first and foremost we are college students. Do you think professors will just let their students slide if paperwork or a paper or homework in general isn't completed on time? Do you think the University would allow their students to just turn in paperwork after the dead line and still accept it? I don't know about the rest of the country, but I come from a university that is pretty strict on their deadlines, including the professors, if it is late you're getting an 0, unless you spoke with the professor before hand and they have OK'ed it.
> 
> Seriously, you can't complain and blame other people if you didn't complete your paper work on time or in general read your paperwork. Again I compare it to school, you can't turn in a half completed paper or make up a different assignment because you didn't read the directions carefully. As my professor likes to say no one wants to take personal responsibility of their own acts now, and sadly it is true. It is essentially a blame game now. In addition, if a professor or in this case the director of college archery started taking in paper work late what kind of precedent does that set for the future, and not only that what does that say about us as college students/archers, that we can not get paper work in on time and expect to be given a exception each time?
> 
> ...


kid386... if you have been following along with what's going on, for at least Kendal, it's not about being lazy and not completing the paperwork... it's about not getting a renewed passport back from the US government in time (it had been sent in for renewal as soon as she learned of the requirement that it must be valid 6 months after the last day of the tournament instead of just plain old after the last day of the tournament... the rest of the paperwork was ready to go). She only needed a day or two more, and from what I understand, leadership wouldn't even discuss the issue with her. Then when she finally DID get a discussion going, it is my understanding (and I may be wrong in my interpretation), that is was full of half-truths and run-arounds.

The problem is, as Dennis said... the who works for/with who issue... and that is an ON GOING and very serious issue with the USCA and its Director. I agree, you have to have rules and deadlines, but there are ALWAYS exceptions when the circumstances have merit... even in college. And proper planning by the Board would have meant the Director (and Board) would have planned for abnormalities to pop up and they would have been prepared to deal with them... and dare I say it... HELP WITH THE ISSUES instead of just shutting people down. That's their JOB as faciltators. That's their DUTY to their members. The leadership seems to have it backwards and THAT'S what is upsetting. And really, we are talking about a no harm, no foul situation since the paperwork couldn't be delivered to the next party in line until Monday ANYWAY. 

I'll give you another example, which may or may not apply to the Columbia girls situation (I don't know): According to a friend of mine who works for the athletic department here at ASU, if you are a member of a varsity team, the university athletic department has to sign off on any external funding you may recieve for your sport. That includes trip funding, and it is my understanding that they won't do that until AFTER you have qualified for the team and they can review and copy the documents etc... so no signatures and no documents can be turned in until that happens or you may risk your scholarship.

So, yes, in principle I agree with you. And I don't think exceptions should be made only for elite athletes because we "need" them; however, there is always room for discussion and assistance when it may be necessary and THAT should be the nature of collegiate archery.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Great oxymoron: "violent hippies." Hey, Dennis? Why do we have hippies? ..................... To hold up our leggies.

Well, if the archers under the USCA do not like or believe a change must be made, they'll have to force the issue and get it changed. And that will require courage to stand up and be counted, and name the names, and write the letters. The rest of us in USAA land cannot do it for them. Could be a case of unintended consequences after the split or parting, but only the archers involved can get it changed. Unless USAA somehow says, "Come back! We'll do it right for you."


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

In the other thread, it was mentioned that one of the shooters had her expiring passport at the event "as proof" of their having applied for a renewal.

Normally you send in a previous passport to expedite a renewal. This seems strange.


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## kid386 (Mar 3, 2009)

Mithril said:


> In the other thread, it was mentioned that one of the shooters had her expiring passport at the event "as proof" of their having applied for a renewal.
> 
> Normally you send in a previous passport to expedite a renewal. This seems strange.


I do remember sending in my old passport to get a new passport, when i received my new passport which only took a month they sent back my old one with two holes in it. 

I was also changing from a child passport to an adult passport, I don't know if that played a part in it.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

kid386... I'm sure many people feel the same way you do: there were deadlines, they weren't met, so too bad,… right? Let me offer another way to look at things. Since you started with a classroom analogy, I will expand on it. I've been a UC Berkeley professor for 23 years, and I like to think that I am a pretty good one. Well, at least I'm a better professor than I am an archer. Anyway, when I teach a class the goals of the class should be separated from the technicalities of running the class. The goal of the class is to ensure that the students learn the material, and to make sure that the students are ranked fairly according to their level of mastery of the material, i.e. graded fairly. Sure I want everyone to turn stuff in on-time, but that rarely ever happens. There are a wide variety of reasons why, with some being more legitimate than others. But just as long as it doesn’t affect the mastery of the material or the fairness of the grading, what does it matter? For example, if a student turns in an assignment one week late, so he/she has had an additional week work on it compared to the rest of the class, then that is not acceptable because it affects the fairness of the grading. If, however, an assignment is turned late, but has a time stamp to prove he/she had the same amount of time to work on it as everyone else, that is acceptable to me. When our Team travels to tournaments, and I have given students (missing classes) proctored timed exams on-the-road for other professors. This is acceptable because my colleagues know that these students will not have any advantage over the rest of the class. The point is that most deadlines are artificial. They are there to enforce fairness, and for the convenience of the instructor. My job is to make sure students learn the material, and that the ranking is fair. I, like any good instructor, am willing to accept a little inconvenience to achieve the goals of the class. As another example, many schools have large classes where professor don’t know the names and faces of all the students. At Berkeley, when there is final exam in a large class, many professors (including myself) check student ID’s when the exam in turned in. Frequently, students forget to bring their ID’s. I don’t tell them, ”Too bad, you just failed the class.” They studied, they did the work, and they showed up. The ID is a technicality. I just hang onto the exam until they go home and bring back their ID’s. Failing them does not achieve the goals of the class. In the case of WUG Trials, the goal was to select the best qualified athletes for the WUG Team. Everyone who participated prepared for it like a final exam. They all studied, they all practiced, they all showed up at the appointed time, they all shot the same round on the same field. Axing them at the end because of a technicality does not achieve the final goals of the contest. The fact that nothing would have been mailed out until Monday afternoon anyway, and extension of the deadline until Wednesday offered by FISU, show that USCA would not have been horribly inconvenienced.
Keep plugging away with the shooting, kid386. Don't sell yourself short. You will get better. I guarantee it.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Just a simple note of fact: Kendal had a copy of her old passport (from a printer) simply as proof she had one, the original was sent with the application.


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## sambow (Mar 26, 2005)

just a funny side note, more to the columbia girls or anyone else who didnt have papers from their college....when I called USCA and directly talked to loretta i specifically asked her 3 times " what do I need as proof that I am a club, what piece of paper do i need"...her response " I don't know, whatever they give you". I will bet you that if somehow I had gotten a club approved the paperwork needed would not have been correct, just another loophole to exclude people in my opinion.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

The problem has been and always will be Loretta...since the split that she caused, it has been all down hill. Time to form a new organization.....


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## sambow (Mar 26, 2005)

Scott.Barrett said:


> The problem has been and always will be Loretta...since the split that she caused, it has been all down hill. Time to form a new organization.....


Honestly i think it would be easier to go back to USA Archery...with the right people and the right approach I think its the best bet


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## Gene M (Nov 16, 2010)

I wish I didn't know this but based on a previous very unpleasant experience, the state's Attorney General where the USCA is incorporated may be able to help. In some states, the AG is responsible for ensuring that non-profits comply with the terms of their by-laws. If the officers or board of a non-profit are acting blatantly irresponsibly, the AG may step in and require changes be made. 

A brief read of the USCA by-laws makes it clear their stated goals are among other things "C. Creating and maintaining the resources and infrastructure that are necessary to support the growth of collegiate archery in the United States of America and D. Promoting the growth and development of instructional and competitive archery programs in the institutions of higher learning in the United States of America. E. Providing leadership experiences for student-athletes." I didn't see anything about teaching college kids to get paperwork done on time. 

We should all hope it doesn't come down to this because if it does, basically everyone loses.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, where are the final results?

Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk


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## archery bank (Aug 22, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> Just out of curiosity, where are the final results?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk


Results at ianseo.net. The men's recurve results as follows: Joe Fanchin(1320), Tony Don(1291), Glen Thomas(1269), Dakota Sinclair(1244), Forrest Blakely(1243), Aaron Henslin(1227)


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## tbirdrunner (Mar 27, 2008)

All information that was presented to the athletes and coaches along with the results are on this link...
http://www.uscollegiatearchery.org/content/usiac-wug


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

archery bank said:


> Results at ianseo.net. The men's recurve results as follows: Joe Fanchin(1320), Tony Don(1291), Glen Thomas(1269), Dakota Sinclair(1244), Forrest Blakely(1243), Aaron Henslin(1227)


That part, I actually had. What I was interested in was what was officially published by the USCA.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

tbirdrunner said:


> All information that was presented to the athletes and coaches along with the results are on this link...
> http://www.uscollegiatearchery.org/content/usiac-wug


I noticed that they mentioned their "world team" on Facebook, but there hasn't been an official announcement on their web page? Interesting.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Below is the exact message we received after registration on May 2. A key phrase "no exceptions" is missing as compared to what's on the website. This is important as I printed it out, handed to my wife and told her this is what Kendal needed. If we had seen "no exceptions" we probably would have dug a little further on the passport issue. We had no need to go to the website to confirm, we had no reason to doubt this. We feel this is an important fact but because it was listed on the website legally we seem to be sunk. 



* Confirming USIAC/WUG Registration
University of New England Kendal Nicely Female Compound No Yes

You have paid for the registration fee, 1 bbq and no extra banquet. 

Just a reminder that Coaches, parents, and family must pay for a banquet fee.

WUG Trial attendees must have a bring a copy of their passport, 2 passport sized photos, the signed and university sealed attached eligibility form and a $50 damage deposit to the trials. Your passport must not expire before 1 March 2012. If you are selected for the team, there will be a team meeting on Saturday, time and place TBD.

USCA dress code is enforced including official practice. You can read the requirements in the USCA Rules and Procedures handbook. Team members who arrive to practice or to compete and do not meet dress code with their teammates will not shoot. Bottoms must be the same color and style though team members can wear combinations of shorts, pants, skorts etc. Shirts must match and have the name or logo of the university on the front or back and be 'visibly' identifiable with their university (see the dress code for full info). There is no registered College Coach for this team. Coaches do not have to match but must be visiby indentifiable with the club. Non-members are not permitted past the spectator line. Coach members must follow FITA and USCA rules.

The Banquet is nice dress casual (some of the guys wear ties, almost all the women wear dresses of some sort). *


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Sounds to me like trying to round up a herd of wild city cats. Looks good on paper, but ........


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

My thought, and this is applicable to *any* organization's registration packet (USA Archery, NFAA, whoever).

Whatever is in the registration packet and is signed by the archer - that would be the legal document. Websites can be changed. What's signed and is turned in as a registration packet cannot.

Not to sound like an anal retentive person, but I scan every packet that I fill out and sign for my 9 year old. That's because if it's got my John Henry on it, it's the legal paperwork.

-Steve


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

There it is, folks! Beastmaster has it right. All the required paperwork should have been a part of the information/registration packet and sent out ahead of time so that when the archers show up, and if they make the team, all the paperwork is already done, and in the organizers hands. End of story. I really do hope that the college archers can get this taken care of before they graduate. There is a wealth of talent there and not getting a chance to be seen on the big stages.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

The Registration was online only. No paper registrations. I don't recall what was in the "online packet" but upon registering the info previously posted was sent as a follow up. We had no reason to doubt it was accurate.


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## sambow (Mar 26, 2005)

when was the actual registration deadline....it looks like a normal renewal time is about 5 weeks without paying extra...im pretty sure the registration deadline was only a few weeks before the actual shoot....isn't this an unreasonable deadline to renew your passport? once again another unreasonable deadline by USCA


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

> WUG Trial attendees must have a bring a copy of their passport, 2 passport sized photos, the signed and university sealed attached eligibility form and a $50 damage deposit to the trials. Your passport must not expire before 1 March 2012.


I have absolutely no love for USCA or the schism, but this information is crystal-clear.

If you have an unexpired passport, you can get it renewed through normal channels in a few days for a $65.00 fee- hardly a big expense in the big scheme of things.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Nicely said:


> The Registration was online only. No paper registrations. I don't recall what was in the "online packet" but upon registering the info previously posted was sent as a follow up. We had no reason to doubt it was accurate.


Interesting. Even our local stuff (when using online) also has a paper (via PDF) packet. Very interesting.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Before anyone gets any deeper into the finger pointing... I would like to take a moment to thank the Easton Foundations for providing the financial support that makes the US WUG Archery Team possible. Years ago, the WUG Team was self-funded, which meant that if an athlete could not pay for the trip, he/she couldn't go. At that time, it was not only a matter of who shot best and deserved to go, it was also a matter of who could afford the expenses. With the generous support of Easton, the financial barrier was removed, and we are really able to put our best foot forward. Thank you Easton Foundations!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

DK Lieu said:


> Before anyone gets any deeper into the finger pointing... I would like to take a moment to thank the Easton Foundations for providing the financial support that makes the US WUG Archery Team possible. Years ago, the WUG Team was self-funded, which meant that if an athlete could not pay for the trip, he/she couldn't go. At that time, it was not only a matter of who shot best and deserved to go, it was also a matter of who could afford the expenses. With the generous support of Easton, the financial barrier was removed, and we are really able to put our best foot forward. Thank you Easton Foundations!


 There is Collegiate 3D, traning programs, equipment support, and administration guidance. I think I saw collegiate bowhunters competition. The Easton support has been huge. The difference is remarkable in comparision to a time not so long ago when youth, collegiate and adults were mostly self funded.


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## kid386 (Mar 3, 2009)

DK Lieu said:


> Before anyone gets any deeper into the finger pointing... I would like to take a moment to thank the Easton Foundations for providing the financial support that makes the US WUG Archery Team possible. Years ago, the WUG Team was self-funded, which meant that if an athlete could not pay for the trip, he/she couldn't go. At that time, it was not only a matter of who shot best and deserved to go, it was also a matter of who could afford the expenses. With the generous support of Easton, the financial barrier was removed, and we are really able to put our best foot forward. Thank you Easton Foundations!


Dennis you and I may butt heads on some situations, but I completely agree with you on how generous the Easton Foundation has been to college archery in terms of equipment grants, travel grants, etc. 

Thanx Easton Foundation :thumbs_up


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

My son's school was able to get a grant from ESDF. Many thanks to Easton for this!


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

OK, back to our original program… I also think there was something wrong with asking everyone who attended the WUG Trials (which was the exact same event as the USIAC Ranking Round) to bring all the extra WUG paperwork with them, as if they had already made the Team. Everyone was asked to bring 2 passport photos, a check for $50, and a University stamped verification of enrollment. May not sound like a lot of work, but… To get passport photos (which must be a required size, showing a required portion of the head in a required space, hair pulled back, etc.) they need to find a shop that takes passport photos, get there, wait, and pay to have the photos done. For checks, the majority of students I know don’t have check books anymore; it’s all electronic. They need to get their parents or their buddies to write a check for them, so it’s another pain in the rear. For the enrollment verification, they need to get themselves to their Registrar’s Office, stand in line (for sometimes a long time), pay money, and wait for it to get done. It doesn’t sound like a lot of work, but only the top 3 people in each division really needed to do it at all. For everyone else, it was a wasted effort. So say there are 12 people in a division who may be competitive for WUG. USCA would want 12 complete sets of paperwork ready to go. But everyone knows ahead of time that for 9 of those people (75%), the extra work would be wasted. Multiply by 4, because there are 4 divisions. That’s a lot of people running around doing something they don’t need to do. All this effort could have been saved if USCA had simply made a single phone call to FISU. But USCA wouldn’t make that call. It took a concerned parent to make that call, and to prove how simple and easy it was. Even then, USCA would not acknowledge that it was possible. USCA should have asked for the paperwork after the event. Only the WUG Team members would have needed to do the extra paperwork (which they would have gladly done), and it could have been done in a day.


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## kid386 (Mar 3, 2009)

DK Lieu said:


> OK, back to our original program… I also think there was something wrong with asking everyone who attended the WUG Trials (which was the exact same event as the USIAC Ranking Round) to bring all the extra WUG paperwork with them, as if they had already made the Team. Everyone was asked to bring 2 passport photos, a check for $50, and a University stamped verification of enrollment. May not sound like a lot of work, but… To get passport photos (which must be a required size, showing a required portion of the head in a required space, hair pulled back, etc.) they need to find a shop that takes passport photos, get there, wait, and pay to have the photos done. For checks, the majority of students I know don’t have check books anymore; it’s all electronic. They need to get their parents or their buddies to write a check for them, so it’s another pain in the rear. For the enrollment verification, they need to get themselves to their Registrar’s Office, stand in line (for sometimes a long time), pay money, and wait for it to get done. It doesn’t sound like a lot of work, but only the top 3 people in each division really needed to do it at all. For everyone else, it was a wasted effort. So say there are 12 people in a division who may be competitive for WUG. USCA would want 12 complete sets of paperwork ready to go. But everyone knows ahead of time that for 9 of those people (75%), the extra work would be wasted. Multiply by 4, because there are 4 divisions. That’s a lot of people running around doing something they don’t need to do. All this effort could have been saved if USCA had simply made a single phone call to FISU. But USCA wouldn’t make that call. It took a concerned parent to make that call, and to prove how simple and easy it was. Even then, USCA would not acknowledge that it was possible. USCA should have asked for the paperwork after the event. Only the WUG Team members would have needed to do the extra paperwork (which they would have gladly done), and it could have been done in a day.


As that saying goes if you want it go the extra mile. 

But as for gathering the proper items mentioned in your post, as a college student I don't believe it is that difficult. 

2 passport photos: from my understanding, Wallgreens, CVS, Costco, and even the Post Office offer passport photos, in addition I have also taken passport photos for my friends and family in crunch time. All i used was a clean background (blue or white I forgot), a Polaroid camera, and just the upper body (shoulders and up). Currently though I believe only the face is utilized in the actual passport, or at least that was the case when i renewed it 2-3 years ago.

Check for 50 dollars: the majority of my college friends and even some high school friends own checkbooks, since we can't always rely on our parents to write us a check when we need it. My check books were provided free of charge from my bank. However, I believe many banks do not offer free checks anymore due to cutting cost, although if you visit your bank they offer check writing service. I have gone to my bank many times and have had them write a check for me so my personal information (address) was not on them but the money was deducted from my account. 

Enrollment verification: everyone has to wait in line at the Enrollment office for some reason or another. I've done it and I bet all or many other college student have had to also. 

2 cent as a college student


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

kid386 said:


> As that saying goes if you want it go the extra mile.
> 
> But as for gathering the proper items mentioned in your post, as a college student I don't believe it is that difficult.
> 
> ...


Adding insult to injury we found out we would have had the passport on time but the pictures were too large, they were taken at a Rite Aid specifically for passport use. 

Interesting question did the USCA staff put a ruler on all the photos to make sure they were "passport size". I say that jokingly but what if an athlete's photo's weren't of passport size? What if a check was simply forgotten? What if the academic eligibility papers were forgotten? 

BTW you can't use a Polaroid. And the photos we got were $10 for 2 not dirt cheap, and they have to be of a precise size, chin to hair greater than 1" less than 1 3/8" with in a photo that is 2" that includes just below the shoulders, no glare, white background you get the point.

DK Lieu's point is why force several to have these items only not to need them. Where's the go green crowd at least a half a tree must of been killed for all the wasted paperwork.


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## crazychipmunk (Jul 1, 2006)

It is such a shame that archers have to take responsibility for themselves. Too bad archery is starting to act like other college sports organizations that follow their rules and deadlines. I can't imagine it can be that difficult to obtain the paperwork because all of the guys that made the team had all of their paperwork and no problems.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

crazychipmunk said:


> It is such a shame that archers have to take responsibility for themselves. Too bad archery is starting to act like other college sports organizations that follow their rules and deadlines. I can't imagine it can be that difficult to obtain the paperwork because all of the guys that made the team had all of their paperwork and no problems.


They had to go 10 deep on the recurve mens side, so that's 7 that didn't have the paper work. Our gripe is not with the rule, but with the fact we weren't afforded due process. We think we have a logical explanation as stated earlier in this thread. We wanted a formal hearing before the board and were denied. Their own bylaws were violated. Not that it would matter it seems the board isn't allowed to think independently.


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## crazychipmunk (Jul 1, 2006)

Well, the men have Glen Thomas, Tony Don, and Joe Fanchin which are the top 3. Just the women had issues.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

crazychipmunk said:


> Well, the men have Glen Thomas, Tony Don, and Joe Fanchin which are the top 3. Just the women had issues.


I've only seen the teams listed on facebook not sure it's accurate as I don't see a couple of the men's recurve listed in the qualification round. The womens recurve goes down to #10. Womens compound to 5. 

After some thought it isn't fair for me to speculate why some qualified and didn't get named to the team. Some may have chose not to go. There was a funding issue for those who graduated in 2010 as well so that may have deterred them.


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## kid386 (Mar 3, 2009)

Nicely said:


> Adding insult to injury we found out we would have had the passport on time but the pictures were too large, they were taken at a Rite Aid specifically for passport use.
> 
> Interesting question did the USCA staff put a ruler on all the photos to make sure they were "passport size". I say that jokingly but what if an athlete's photo's weren't of passport size? What if a check was simply forgotten? What if the academic eligibility papers were forgotten?
> 
> ...


Sucks for Rite-Aid fail. Should give'em a call and tell them that their passport photos are not regulated passport photo size. 

Rules for passport photos have changed over time, but when I took them Polaroid were a' OK.


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## kid386 (Mar 3, 2009)

Nicely said:


> I've only seen the teams listed on facebook not sure it's accurate as I don't see a couple of the men's recurve listed in the qualification round. The womens recurve goes down to #10. Womens compound to 5.
> 
> After some thought it isn't fair for me to speculate why some qualified and didn't get named to the team. Some may have chose not to go. There was a funding issue for those who graduated in 2010 as well so that may have deterred them.


sorry for the double post, but to my understanding there were some archers that did not qualify for WUG because of age.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

crazychipmunk said:


> Well, the men have Glen Thomas, Tony Don, and Joe Fanchin which are the top 3. Just the women had issues.



Am I missing something the results of the qualification round list only Glen Thomas mens recurve I don't see the other 2 at all? Set me straight I'm looking on the USCA website.


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## dcell (Sep 13, 2004)

Nicely said:


> Am I missing something the results of the qualification round list only Glen Thomas mens recurve I don't see the other 2 at all? Set me straight I'm looking on the USCA website.


You're looking at the ranking list for the ORs which does not include WUG only shooters. Look a little lower at the list under "Result Class".


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

dcell said:


> You're looking at the ranking list for the ORs which does not include WUG only shooters. Look a little lower at the list under "Result Class".


OK so some chose to shoot only WUG? Probably to get out a day early? Thank you I didn't realize there was an option, makes sense. Matt


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## archery bank (Aug 22, 2008)

Nicely said:


> OK so some chose to shoot only WUG? Probably to get out a day early? Thank you I didn't realize there was an option, makes sense. Matt


Tony did not shoot the OR's because he had to get back to AZ for his younger brother's HS graduation on Monday. Also he was unable to shoot indoors this year so it did not make sense to burn a years eligibilty. Damon


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

kid386 said:


> As that saying goes if you want it go the extra mile.
> 
> But as for gathering the proper items mentioned in your post, as a college student I don't believe it is that difficult.
> 
> ...


kid386… The effort for each task may not seem like much, but let’s add it up. Getting over to the Walgreen’s (or CVS, Post Office, Costco, etc.): 15 minutes. Finding the photo service, asking for help, taking the picture, waiting for the picture, paying for the picture: 15 minutes. Cost: $10. Getting over to the Registrar’s Office: 15 minutes. Waiting in line, filling out the request, waiting to get the certification stamp: 15 minutes. Cost: $10. Some students have checkbooks (so it’s easy), some do not (so it’s not that easy). So let’s say an average of 15 minutes to either go to the bank to get a check, or locate and bug a buddy or parent to write a check. Average for one person: 1 hour and 15 minutes, and $20. Total for 36 people who do not need to do this: 45 hours (or a little over 5 and a half business days, or over one business week) of unnecessary effort, and $720 of unnecessary cost. The alternative would have been for USCA to make a single phone call.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Dr. Lieu,

Your logic and attention to detail of your post ("let's break it down and see the essence of each part") has the intrinsic beauty of Kim Basinger on her best day. 

I have regularly employed a myriad of college students as part-time drivers for the last 30 years, and, by a wide margin, my best drivers (thorough, reliable, safe) are inevitably engineering students.

The world (especially the world of politics - don't get me started) needs more engineering (math) majors, and less marketing (words) majors (sadly, I was a marketing major :wink!


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## kabnt2005 (Dec 31, 2010)

I think the biggest problem at UB is because you can't create a club and join Student Association without being "eligible" for monetary funds. Every approved club is given a budget from the general student association fees that everyone pays. So they are very, very strict and protective, so as they don't just hand out money to anyone and regret it later on.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

kabnt2005… You are correct, that university recognized clubs are much easier to form at some schools than at others. At UC Berkeley, it was relatively easy to create a social club for archery: just write a club constitution, elect some officers, and have them attend a few orientation meetings. Funding was a separate matter. We had to apply to get funding from the University, and getting it was far from guaranteed. In fact, we later decided that the red tape involved in applying for and using University funding was not worth the effort. Gaining sport club status, which gave us (the all important) access to University fields and facilities, took a bit more doing. We had to show a dedicated membership, organized leadership, the existence of a National Governing Body (NGB) for the sport, the existence of significant competition at the collegiate level, and submit a lengthy risk management plan. As a sport club, we can officially “carry the University banner”, use their logos, and officially represent our school in competition. Social clubs here cannot, in the eyes of the University, officially represent our school or even wear our school logos in competition.

Back when USCA was still CAP under USAA, the Bylaws permitted either an officially recognized university club or an individual or group of individuals at the school to be a CAP club. This changed when the Bylaws were rewritten by USCA. Now a USCA club must be officially recognized as a club or sport by the school. I can see that USCA may have wanted to do this to make archery more of a “legitimate” and organized sport. Interestingly enough the current Bylaws also state that a new USCA club cannot be formed at a school where such a club already exists. This may bring up a future case of “squatters rights”, where a school that wants to create an official team may be unable to do so if a student or group of students had already formed a school unofficial, but USCA recognized, club earlier. As you have noted, there are a lot of schools where official clubs may be very difficult to create. There are also some schools where any sort of shooting sport is viewed upon as a violent activity, and thus banned. In the current Bylaws, there is a provision that allows the Executive Director to grant exceptions to the requirement of being an official school club. Your case seems to be a good example of where such an exception should granted. Have you tried asking USCA for an exception?


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## sambow (Mar 26, 2005)

DK Lieu said:


> kabnt2005… You are correct, that university recognized clubs are much easier to form at some schools than at others. At UC Berkeley, it was relatively easy to create a social club for archery: just write a club constitution, elect some officers, and have them attend a few orientation meetings. Funding was a separate matter. We had to apply to get funding from the University, and getting it was far from guaranteed. In fact, we later decided that the red tape involved in applying for and using University funding was not worth the effort. Gaining sport club status, which gave us (the all important) access to University fields and facilities, took a bit more doing. We had to show a dedicated membership, organized leadership, the existence of a National Governing Body (NGB) for the sport, the existence of significant competition at the collegiate level, and submit a lengthy risk management plan. As a sport club, we can officially “carry the University banner”, use their logos, and officially represent our school in competition. Social clubs here cannot, in the eyes of the University, officially represent our school or even wear our school logos in competition.
> 
> Back when USCA was still CAP under USAA, the Bylaws permitted either an officially recognized university club or an individual or group of individuals at the school to be a CAP club. This changed when the Bylaws were rewritten by USCA. Now a USCA club must be officially recognized as a club or sport by the school. I can see that USCA may have wanted to do this to make archery more of a “legitimate” and organized sport. Interestingly enough the current Bylaws also state that a new USCA club cannot be formed at a school where such a club already exists. This may bring up a future case of “squatters rights”, where a school that wants to create an official team may be unable to do so if a student or group of students had already formed a school unofficial, but USCA recognized, club earlier. As you have noted, there are a lot of schools where official clubs may be very difficult to create. There are also some schools where any sort of shooting sport is viewed upon as a violent activity, and thus banned. _In the current Bylaws, there is a provision that allows the Executive Director to grant exceptions to the requirement of being an official school club. Your case seems to be a good example of where such an exception should granted. Have you tried asking USCA for an exception?_




I have looked into this, tried to read by laws and actually looked at the minutes from the meeting where this was passed and i found this 

"The Board of Directors affirmed that clubs must be affiliated with their respective University or College. Exceptions granted on a case by case basis as outlined in the Bylaws and Rules and Procedures. Unless otherwise provided, exceptions are only for 1 year and athletes are required to meet compliance there after"

Soooo from what i see there is no real permanent "exception"

http://www.uscollegiatearchery.org/sites/default/files/DRAFT_Minutes_Board Meeting 11 Feb.pdf


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Sambow and kabnt2005... I am impressed. You two have really done your homework on this. I am willing to talk or write to the administrators at UB, if you think this would be helpful. I've had a good deal of experience and success in organizing student activities. Even though I am at UC Berkeley, and not UB, your administrators may be more receptive to a faculty member (and former administrator) instead of a student. I can give them some perspective on how our club at Berkeley is organized, and how popular and safe archery can be. But let's continue this discussion off-line. I think we've already sufficiently hijacked Nicely's thread.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

why not scrap the club requirement in its entirety. When the NSSA recognized the collegiate division for skeet (the year after i graduated [damn]) you could enter as a collegiate any shoot without all this nonsense. and in the junior worlds (which has a collegiate division) it was the same way. Now a group called the Association of College Unions-International (ACU-I) holds a collegiate tournament which I shot in and some of their events are NSSA or NSCA or USS sanctioned and they might require college team membership but the main governing body for skeet shooting did not


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

One of the most unique and exciting aspects of college archery is that the athletes are competing for their schools, as well as themselves. For individual competition, I'm not sure that the club requirement is entirely necessary, unless the school prohibits individual athletes from competing on the school's behalf without its permission. For team competition, the team represents the school, so it's probably a good idea to have the school's permission to do so. The club requirement also prevents the potential situation where two rival clubs from the same school show up, each claiming to represent that school. Thus I can see the benefit of allowing only one USCA club per school. However, if there there is ever a case of two teams from one school, I believe it is the school who should decide which team (or club) is the official one. Right now, USCA rules state that the official team is the one who signs up with USCA first.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

So, it seems what is really needed is a college age division, and not just a college/university/club team. Wouldn't that work? Then all or much of the paperwork could be eliminated. One could be a Whatsamatter U Club member, or Jeanine D. Archer, 20 year old community college archer.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

DK Lieu said:


> One of the most unique and exciting aspects of college archery is that the athletes are competing for their schools, as well as themselves. For individual competition, I'm not sure that the club requirement is entirely necessary, unless the school prohibits individual athletes from competing on the school's behalf without its permission. For team competition, the team represents the school, so it's probably a good idea to have the school's permission to do so. The club requirement also prevents the potential situation where two rival clubs from the same school show up, each claiming to represent that school. Thus I can see the benefit of allowing only one USCA club per school. However, if there there is ever a case of two teams from one school, I believe it is the school who should decide which team (or club) is the official one. Right now, USCA rules state that the official team is the one who signs up with USCA first.


I was speaking as to individuals such as the girl I coached who would have easily made All-American (she was fifth in the indoor based on her USAA indoor score shot as a senior lady) and her average FITA Score. But due to being a single archer etc she was unable to sign up. 

of course as an official team that is another matter but I suspect its the numerous individuals who are unable to participate because of the hassles of creating a club of one that is really the problem

My attitude is that if a kid

a) attends a legitimate college or unversity

b) has the requisite number of hours

that kid should be able to attend the USIAC outdoor and compete for collegiate titles and All -America status

seems to me we need MORE kids shooting college archery

every year I graduate at least one kid whose scores as a JOAD would place him or her in the top 5=6 collegiates and I have yet to have one kid shoot in college. Some have to work, but mainly most go to schools where there is not an established club and they don't have the time to jump through all the hoops. I have had exactly one kid go to a college that had an established club and he decided playing on the varsity rugby team was more important. This year I am graduating a former National Target Champion (Cadet recurve) who is double gold olympian and he will be attending a very good local University that has no archery program. Next year two JDT members who both probably will have represented the USA internationally. We need to do something to keep those top talents who are not going the RA route in archery


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Frankly, I'm telling people that if they are able to go a self funded route while their child is in college, they should shoot as a USAA Junior. Then shoot as a Senior at 21. Less headgames, less hassle, and you get to shoot.

-Steve


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

The problem is also a lack of practice facilities at most colleges and universities. Students need to get to a place where they can practice regularly. They are extremely busy, and under a great deal of stress. Time is a premium. If a practice facility is not conveniently on-campus, or close by, the choice will likely be to skip practice. When we started the club at UC Berkeley 6 years ago, there was a great deal of interest and participation. But our practice facility was a private indoor range that was 40 minutes away by car. We formed carpools to get there and back, and it seemed to work. But we realized at that time that the arrangement was not going to be sustainable. With the hassles of getting to and from the practice facility, we knew that if we could not get on-campus facilities within two years, the club would likely die. Fortunately, we did get our on-campus facilities, and the club is now thriving.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

I would personally love to get some good JOAD kids here at Berkeley. We have around 140 regular participants in the archery program. 90% of them, including our Team members, have never touched a bow before coming to Cal. Of the ones who have experience, none was a serious competitor before coming here. There is no doubt that the top JOAD Juniors and Cadets can out-shoot our Team members. Hopefully this will change, as our program gains reputation and becomes more of an archery destination. We have at least one top shooter entering this fall.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

DK Lieu said:


> The problem is also a lack of practice facilities at most colleges and universities. Students need to get to a place where they can practice regularly. They are extremely busy, and under a great deal of stress. Time is a premium. If a practice facility is not conveniently on-campus, or close by, the choice will likely be to skip practice. When we started the club at UC Berkeley 6 years ago, there was a great deal of interest and participation. But our practice facility was a private indoor range that was 40 minutes away by car. We formed carpools to get there and back, and it seemed to work. But we realized at that time that the arrangement was not going to be sustainable. With the hassles of getting to and from the practice facility, we knew that if we could not get on-campus facilities within two years, the club would likely die. Fortunately, we did get our on-campus facilities, and the club is now thriving.


I agree fully. As a student at Yale I was captain and a four year member of both the shotgun team and the table tennis team-serving as coach of the TT my last three years.

The shooting team had its own facilities that was 45 minutes away but we had a strong team with lots of funding and if you did well they gave you a varsity letter. The coach made sure there was a car going out there at least once a week. TT was a different matter-we were shuffled from an old squash court after being in a too popular gym and finally on the side of the crew rowing tanks (high humidity is not conducive to being able to loop a nittaku very well). Several years ago Tina Jeon-a national champion JOAD sought my help in starting archery as a club sport at Yale. She was lucky-the head of the club sports was my training partner (he was at a local state college but his father was head of the Yale Club sports and the skeet coach and he took his dad's job)- from my college shooting days and he found them SOME space. Sadly, when she graduated that was the end of the team-when I visited this weekend, the club sports roster had no mention of archery despite my somewhat substantial gift 5 years ago.

Miami University had a great program with its own indoor range and plenty of room outside. George Helwig dies and that nice range is gobbled up.

the key thing is to have some permancy with a FACULTY MEMBER such as yourself or Dr. Norm Graham at MSU (another great program)

UC-B is a great school-sadly out of state tuition and the distance is two obstacles preventing my OHio kids from going there. I had the WCSA world champion apply at Stanford (his parents are Californians and his dad had a JD from Stanford) but he got far more favorable treatment from OSU and is there now.


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## shmook (Dec 14, 2004)

Everything that we needed to participate in the trials was outlined via email. So if someone didn't have the proper paperwork they should take responsibility. In 2008 I made the team and could have went to Serbia, but unfortunately nobody let us know until a month before hand we were going to need a passport. The only way to get a passport in time would have been to expedite it so I could not go to Serbia. Maybe I should have done something similar to try and get on that team. There were so many people that didn't have the paperwork that year either so learn form other people's mistakes. The expiration date of the passport was even in the info emailed to us. People need to be more accountable.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

Interesting discussion and as usually plenty of blame to go around when things go wrong. I think Professor Lieu would agree that anytime a student fails so does the teacher. I also say our culture doesn't hold leadership accountable for mistakes anymore, and therefore they don't strive as hard as they should to avoid problems. I did shoot college archery several years ago. I spent considerable time re-scheduling my exams to shoot West Regionals and USIAC as law professors thought such activities unnecessary. Jim C, and others address the difficulties faced by most solo archers to participate and jump through a red tape obstacle course. Add the time and (potentially unnecessary) expense Dr. Lieu noted for those who in reality had no chance to make an international team this year. 

What should be a "fun" diversion from studies ends up being a full-time job. And each time the solo archer graduates the whole nightmare begins again. Perhaps the kids will learn from others mistakes, some might. The bigger question is whether the Board will take a hard look at their responsibilities, and what they can do to make things easier, especially for the solo archers. They should acknowledge their primary goal is to assure NO kid misses opportunities. Plenty of ideas have been raised and the Board should perhaps focus harder on "any" foreseeable problems before they occur and leave teaching life's lessons to the professors.


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## shmook (Dec 14, 2004)

College students are adults and they had the info available to them. The only lesson to be learned here is accountability.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

Exactly, from top to bottom. Obviously things didn't work out so well, thus this thread, and the other one, and the discussions on Facebook. It could be looked at as a learning experience for just the kids, a wake-up call for the Board that some things are working, others maybe not well, or a chance for all to strive to make a good, and well-funded program by Easton better. Or as some have asserted, politics at its best. I remain hopeful things will be fixed so qualified athletes can compete.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Holy smokes. I sure don't miss the politics of archery. Not one bit. Sorry for those that have had to deal with all this. 

Is it wrong for me to find it a little funny that a kid from a tiny junior college in Southern Illinois (a school that had to be convinced to allow him to represent them in the first place, and then offered no support aside from a t-shirt) ended up walking away with the men's recurve national championship...? 

There's a lesson in there somewhere. I'm just sure of it.

To paraphrase Rodney King... "can't we all just shoot arrows?"


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