# 3rd Axis question



## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Can you put your bow in a vise level it and then tilt back and forth to check your 3rd axis?


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## BowKil (Mar 19, 2005)

I suppose you could do that, but it won't set you're 3rd axis properly. The best way to set it is at full draw aiming up at a plumb bob, etc. You need the bow at full draw so that any torque that you introduce to the riser will be compensated for when you set your 3rd axis. You won't get that locking the bow in a vice or such.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

You shouldn't apply torque to the bow should you. If you do wouldn't that effect arrow flight. Seems to me if you set it level in a vise then when you shoot if your level is right your bow is level. I really don't understand the need to draw and aim at a plumb bob. Please explain


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NTYMADATER said:


> You shouldn't apply torque to the bow should you. If you do wouldn't that effect arrow flight. Seems to me if you set it level in a vise then when you shoot if your level is right your bow is level. I really don't understand the need to draw and aim at a plumb bob. Please explain


If your bow has a cable guard,
then when you are at full draw,
the riser of your bow actually twists a tiny, teeny, itsy bit.

Not much, but a tiny amount.


So,
the good folks of Spot Hogg suggest you hang a string from the ceiling
and put a weight on the end of the string.


Spot Hogg pin sights have that handy wire to use as a reference
to line up with the string hanging from the ceiling.


If you want to try the full draw method,
and you are using a pin sight,
then put your bow into a vise
and make sure your riser is dead vertical.

Adjust your pins so that all your pins are also dead vertical.

Now,
with your bow at full draw,
and a string hanging from the ceiling,
you can line up the edge of all your pins 
with the string hanging from the ceiling
and point the bow down,
like you are in a tree stand.

Check the bubble level on your sight
and see if the bubble is dead center,
while your pins are lined up with the string hanging
from the ceiling.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I checked 3rd Axis using your method and it was right. So can I assume my method works or was it just an anomaly. My method takes less time and is easier. Maybe someone with several different bows and sights could test it.


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## OHIOBUCK (Oct 25, 2006)

NTYMADATER said:


> You shouldn't apply torque to the bow should you. If you do wouldn't that effect arrow flight. Seems to me if you set it level in a vise then when you shoot if your level is right your bow is level. I really don't understand the need to draw and aim at a plumb bob. Please explain


Hold you bow with an open hand and draw it back. You will see it rotate a little bit. That is why you can't use a vise.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

It must not rotate enough to make a difference because it shows perfect level both ways. At least for me with my bow. I wish some more people would try this and see if they get the same results.


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## OHIOBUCK (Oct 25, 2006)

NTYMADATER said:


> It must not rotate enough to make a difference because it shows perfect level both ways. At least for me with my bow. I wish some more people would try this and see if they get the same results.


If that is the case then it will work for you. When I draw my bow back it rotates a little bit to the right I think. 

If you look at my sight it is tipped a little towards me and looks like it is out of square with the bow, but at full draw it is square because my bow tips a little when I draw it. If that makes any sence?????


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Maybe bows with roller guards don't rotate like bows with cable guards. Have you put your bow in a vice leveled it then rotate it back and forth to see if your sight level shows level?


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## rustyfence (Aug 3, 2006)

I have done it both ways with my Vectrix, my Ultra Elite, a Commander, and an OLD PSE firestorm. On all of these bows, it balances exactlly the same for me. Perfect level on all bows for me doing both methods.:wink:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Something else to consider when you draw while on your knees I would think that would impact how much torque some people put on their bow. It's not easy to hold good form standing much less on your knees.

Has anyone set 3rd axis at full draw and it doesn't show level in a vice using the method I desribed earlier?


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## OHIOBUCK (Oct 25, 2006)

NTYMADATER said:


> Something else to consider when you draw while on your knees I would think that would impact how much torque some people put on their bow. It's not easy to hold good form standing much less on your knees.
> 
> Has anyone set 3rd axis at full draw and it doesn't show level in a vice using the method I desribed earlier?


Yes ME!!!!! When you look at my sight it looks like it is hinged towards the bow a little bit (It isn't 90 deg to the riser). When I draw my bow it rotates a little bit and makes the sight 90deg. to the arrow at full draw.


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## Gary Lee Head (Feb 5, 2007)

NTYMADATER said:


> It must not rotate enough to make a difference because it shows perfect level both ways. At least for me with my bow. I wish some more people would try this and see if they get the same results.


I put mine in a bow vise that tilts and get the bubble level then I tilt it forward and use a 4 foot level on the side of the riser to make sure the bow is still level .I set my 3rd axis this way and it always seems to work for me.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

OHIOBUCK said:


> Yes ME!!!!! When you look at my sight it looks like it is hinged towards the bow a little bit (It isn't 90 deg to the riser). When I draw my bow it rotates a little bit and makes the sight 90deg. to the arrow at full draw.


You must really torque your bow if the sight is moved enough to notice. I guess that is why the bow must be tuned to the shooter.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Gary Lee Head said:


> I put mine in a bow vise that tilts and get the bubble level then I tilt it forward and use a 4 foot level on the side of the riser to make sure the bow is still level .I set my 3rd axis this way and it always seems to work for me.


Maybe I should start a poll to see how many people use a bow vise to set 3rd axis. Looks like I'm not the only one.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

NTYMADATER said:


> You must really torque your bow if the sight is moved enough to notice. I guess that is why the bow must be tuned to the shooter.



---------------------------------
qUOTE = I guess that is why the bow must be tuned to the shooter.
---
Now this is what i have been waiting to here.And i couldn't agree more..

You are calling it tork but i refer to it as ones natural cant of the bow.

Put your bow in a jig or vice.And bring that bubble vial perfectly level.

Now take you bow in hand .Close your eyes and draw to your natural relaxed anchor.Standing there relaxed,Now open your eyes and she where your bubble vial is.And what hand pressure now is needed to atain the bubble vial ,level once again.

Now if this bow was being shot out of a Hooter Schooter. One would set the bow up level for the Hooter Schooter. Then the same aplies for setting a bow up level for ones natural cant.





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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Unk Bond said:


> ---------------------------------
> qUOTE = I guess that is why the bow must be tuned to the shooter.
> ---
> Now this is what i have been waiting to here.And i couldn't agree more..
> ...



Are you saying we should also set 2nd axis at full draw?


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello

Here is a good read on axis and how to adust them.

Read this link below. And then lets discus your thoughts after reading his articles on leveling a bow.\

http://www.archerytech.com/


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I read the article and would agree with what he has to say but 4th axis doesn't apply to me because I don't use a slidebar. 

Interesting quote 
" Unfortunately a lot of people have been brainwashed into believing that the 3rd axis must be set at full draw. I am here to tell you that method also leaves a lot to be desired. It was close and worked….sort of.!! When you are at full draw all of the torque is applied. This torque can be caused by your form, limb twist, handle machining, cable guards, string torque etc. NONE of these torque factors take effect until the string is released. Therefore adjusting anything to the anticipated action of torque is a guess as to what may happen".

According to this statement 3rd axis should not be set at full draw.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Now i have always tried to give this example for thought.

Years back they balance a tire on a car.They would shove a moterized machine under the tire ,get it up to speed dial for the weight.Place there hand on the fender to feel for vibration and smoothness of the tire and hub working together.Now here they have balance the tire with the hub.And here the tire is repersented as the bow and the hub is the archer.

Now days they place a tire on a machine. Add weights with out considering the hub it will be mounted to.Now the tire is balanced for the tire machine.But what about the the hub it is to be mounted to.Say the hub has flau .

For me ] i raise the bow up to my natural anchor and cant and ajust the level of the bow with how i consistanly hold the bow.

Reason being if one hast to apply hand pressure on the bow grip to atain the bubble vial level. What ever pressure on the bow grip is aplied to bring the level vial level.Then when the shot is made that pressure will be aplied in the shot to return to a nutural state of the archers natural cant.

Example my arm has been broken 3 times .Not straight by any means.Now ajusting a sight on a bench, and expecting it tobe my way of holding a bow level.I don't think so.  [Later


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

In other words you want the bubble to show level for how "you" hold the bow. However, I think the level should show level because it is level and then the shooter will know that the sight and bow is level when the release is made. If you cant your bow shots will go left or right depending on the amount and direction the bow is canted. I think the level is one thing that can't be tuned to the shooter. It's either level or it isn't. Trying to level something that isn't steady (i.e. in a bow vise) seems futile to me. I shot a tournament today with some steep angles downhill, uphill, perpendiclur to the hill and my line was on the money. Can't say the same for my yardage but left and right was good. I guess everyone should use what works for them. Putting my bow in a vice and getting it level works for me.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

Add another to the list of people who found that simply tilting the bow fore and aft didn't work for setting the 3rd axis.

What you are trying to do when setting your 3rd axis is set the sight's housing/pins to be at a perfect 90degrees to the path of your arrow at full draw. On my Mathews Drenalin the arrow sticks slightly out to the left. It is not perfectly in line with the stabilizer, riser etc.

If I simply set the 2nd axis in a vice and then tilt the bow fore and aft to set the 3rd axis it will not take this into account. I would think most times that your 3rd axis would be set when the sight head is at a 90 to the mounting block using the vice method. Since my arrow points slightly to the left I know that my sight's head being 90 degrees to the mounting plate isn't right.

Just so you know, my bow is tuned perfectly. Bullet holes in paper, walk back perfect, broadheads and FPs have same POI.

Just like Ohiobuck's sight, my Hunter Hogg it is "hinged" towards me slightly. :wink:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

I thought the idea behind 3rd axis was to make sure your level shows level when you tilt your bow fore and aft. If your bow is tuned by whatever method when you set your pins they are 90 degrees to your arrow. That is the principal behind walk back tuning. To get your arrow rest lined up with your sights. Hinging your sight head in or out does not make your pins 90 degrees to your arrow. 2nd axis is what sets your pins 90 degrees to your arrow. That is with your bow in a vice setting horizontally and vertically level your sight level shows level. I think maybe the difference is the sight we are using. On a G5 you don't move the sight housing just the level.


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

I'm not speaking for Unk but I think what you are missing is that once his bow is leveled for his shooting style, he sights the bow in from there. There is no left/right issue in this case. This topic is one of the main reasons I use Gene's 4th Axis devise!! Just like Dean Pridgen says, he will never shoot a bow without it!! 




NTYMADATER said:


> In other words you want the bubble to show level for how "you" hold the bow. However, I think the level should show level because it is level and then the shooter will know that the sight and bow is level when the release is made. If you cant your bow shots will go left or right depending on the amount and direction the bow is canted. I think the level is one thing that can't be tuned to the shooter. It's either level or it isn't. Trying to level something that isn't steady (i.e. in a bow vise) seems futile to me. I shot a tournament today with some steep angles downhill, uphill, perpendiclur to the hill and my line was on the money. Can't say the same for my yardage but left and right was good. I guess everyone should use what works for them. Putting my bow in a vice and getting it level works for me.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> I thought the idea behind 3rd axis was to make sure your level shows level when you tilt your bow fore and aft. If your bow is tuned by whatever method when you set your pins they are 90 degrees to your arrow. That is the principal behind walk back tuning. To get your arrow rest lined up with your sights. Hinging your sight head in or out does not make your pins 90 degrees to your arrow. 2nd axis is what sets your pins 90 degrees to your arrow. That is with your bow in a vice setting horizontally and vertically level your sight level shows level. I think maybe the difference is the sight we are using. On a G5 you don't move the sight housing just the level.


Nope, 2nd axis assures you that your sight's level reads plumb when the riser is held either perfectly vertical or set to your natural cant.

3rd axis sets the sight head itself to be perpendicular to the path of your arrow when shot. On level ground your sight bubble may read "plumb" but if you raise or lower your bow arm it "may" not stay that way.

You are going to raise or lower your bow (for longer shots or uphill/downhill shots) on the same plane as the path of your arrow other wise you will have bad left/right misses. This is why you need to set the 3rd axis so that the sight head is at a perfect 90 to the path of the arrow, not so that it is perpendicular to the side of the riser/sight mounting plate.

Imagine this; remember me saying that my arrows point slightly to the left when viewed from above my bow, looking straight down. IOW's they don't line up with the stabilizer perfectly. Now, if I set my sight head to be at a 90 to the stabilizer or riser, the bubble won't read true on uphill/downhill shots.

My stabilizer points slightly to the right of where I am aiming so if my sight head is set off of that it will be slightly "open" or the left side of the sight head will be further away from me. With the head set too "open" and I then raise my arm for a long shot or uphill shot I will have to twist my bow slightly to get the level to read plumb (left side is higher so the bubble will settle to the left, causing me to twist my bow counter-clockwise to compensate). 

By setting the 3rd axis at full draw the left side of the head is hinged slightly towards me and is perpendicular to the path of the arrow, not to my static riser or the sights mounting plate. Now when I raise my bow to make those longer or uphill/downhill shots I am looking smack dab through the center of the sight head and no matter how high or low I raise or lower my arm, the bubble reads plumb! 

I don't know how to say it any more clear than that?


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Like I said we are using different sights. With the G5 you don't move the sight head. If my 3rd Axis adjustment involved moving the sight head then mine would be hinged out. Instead mine involves moving the level in or out to make my 3rd Axis right. 3rd Axis is about making sure your bubble reads level when you raise or lower your bow. You are trying to make it more complicated than it is. That is why sights have a windage or left right adjustment. If your arrow sticks out to the left then you move your sight to the left. Think of it like this your arrow doesn't come off the bow at an angle does it. No it comes out in a straight line if it doesn't you adjust your rest not your sights. Once you have the arrow coming out in a straight line you simply adjust your sight in and out to hit on the target. Let me say this one more time 

Third Axis is about making sure your bubble reads level when you tilt your bow up and down Simple as that it has nothing to do with lining up your pins to your arrow.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

NEVADAPRO said:


> I'm not speaking for Unk but I think what you are missing is that once his bow is leveled for his shooting style, he sights the bow in from there. There is no left/right issue in this case. This topic is one of the main reasons I use Gene's 4th Axis devise!! Just like Dean Pridgen says, he will never shoot a bow without it!!


Nice advertisement but not relevant to the issue. From what I read about 4th axis it only applies if you are using a slide bar. Thanks for your input.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> Like I said we are using different sights. With the G5 you don't move the sight head. If my 3rd Axis adjustment involved moving the sight head then mine would be hinged out. Instead mine involves moving the level in or out to make my 3rd Axis right. 3rd Axis is about making sure your bubble reads level when you raise or lower your bow. You are trying to make it more complicated than it is. That is why sights have a windage or left right adjustment. If your arrow sticks out to the left then you move your sight to the left. Think of it like this your arrow doesn't come off the bow at an angle does it. No it comes out in a straight line if it doesn't you adjust your rest not your sights. Once you have the arrow coming out in a straight line you simply adjust your sight in and out to hit on the target. Let me say this one more time
> 
> Third Axis is about making sure your bubble reads level when you tilt your bow up and down Simple as that it has nothing to do with lining up your pins to your arrow.


You just don't get it!

If you only move your rest left and right you are not doing anything to the 3rd axis, you are merely setting your windage for the sight.

You are right in that the arrow leaves the bow "straight" but not necessarily in perfect alignment with the riser of the bow. If you only set your 3rd axis based on the relationship of the sight head to the mounting plate of the sight to the riser you are missing the point completely.

In order for the 3rd axis to be correct you must have it set so that the sight head is perfectly perpendicular to the path of your arrow. 

Like I said if your arrow was launched in perfect alignment with the riser you would be OK to do it based on solely rotating your bow fore and aft. I don't think it will unless you are using a "shoot through" without a cable guard though.

In order to have your 3rd axis properly set it must be set so that the vial on your sights level is perfectly perpendicular to the axis on which your bow rotates up and down. Since my arrow is not launched perfectly parallel to my bow's riser (arrow points slightly to the left when viewed from above, not in line with stabilizer), simply rotating the bow fore and aft is not good enough. 

My rotational axis of the bow is directly in line with the path of the arrow, it has to be, otherwise you will get a bunch of left/right misses at different ranges.

This is why my 3rd axis is set after the windage and 2nd axis is already set. My pins are where they should be l/r and my bubble reads level when the bow is perfectly vertical. Now I must set my 3rd axis so that the bubble in the vial reads plumb when I raise or lower my bow along the axis the arrow is being launched on, not the static riser just going fore and aft.

I will say that different bows will have more or less "hinge" in the sight head. My Bowtech Allegiance is not nearly as hinged towards me as my Mathews Drenalin. Both however place their arrows in the bull regardless of any uphill/downhill angles.

Damn my head hurts! :wink:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Let me say this one more time

3rd Axis means your bubble reads level when you tilt your bow down or up. It has nothing to do with being perpendicular or 90 degrees to your arrow. 3rd Axis can be adjusted by either rotating the sight head or you can either rotate just the level in or out to make it read level when you make angled shots. 

What you are talking about is referred to as 4th axis. Which is a whole other topic. 

In conclusion let me say

3rd Axis means your bubble reads level when you tilt your bow down or up. When you realize this you will understand 3rd axis can be set in a vise. There are "vices" made that even allow you to set 3rd axis without the sight attached to the bow.

So can we agree that 3rd axis means your bubble reads level when you tilt your bow down or up?


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## OHIOBUCK (Oct 25, 2006)

If my 3rd Axis adjustment involved moving the sight head then mine would be hinged out. 


Well if that is the case then your bow has to be torquing when you draw it back. 

Spot hogg's level is fixed to the sight ring. That way when you adjust the 3rd axis the level , sight ring, and the sight pins are 90deg to the arrow at full draw.

If i understand you correctly, you are adjusting the level in the sight ring for 3rd axis. So if you put it in a vise and level it , then adjust the 3rd axis the level should be parallel to the sight ring and the sight ring would be 90 deg to the riser. This setup would be exactly the same as a sight that didn't have 3rd axis leveling. ANY sight with a level on it will read correct if you adjust it the way you are doing it. Think about it. You put a sight on your bow and put it in a vise and level the level. The level is 90 deg to the riser and you tip it for and aft it will still read level. Why?? because the bubble is 90 deg. to the direction you are tipping the bow. Now--rotate the handle a little bit and the sight will rotate also causing the bubble to be on a slight angle---NOW it isn't 90 deg to the direction you are rotating the bow and it won't read correctly. NOW you need to hinge the level to make it 90 deg to the directiion you are tipping the bow to get it to read correct again.(3rd axis)

All bow's will rotate when you draw them back. It isn't always caused by hand torque. The way the string winds around the cam will cause it. At rest the pressure is on one point, and when you draw the bow, the string unwinds on the cam and changes the pressure point causing the bow to rotate. Hand tourque can also make your bow rotate. Once again think about it. If a bow didn't rotate when you drew it, there wouldn't be a need for 3rd axis leveling. 

Maybe your the one applying hand tourque ,counteracting the rotation of your bow when you draw it back.:tongue: If this system works for you then by all means do it that way, but i don't think it will work for most.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Now i start off squareing my sight houseing to my sight bar.
As before explained, i set my bubble vial level with my natural repeatable holding cant.

Then i place a bolt rod in my stablizer theaded hole.I atach this rod in my bench leveling gig.Bring the bubble vial level once again.Now the bow is vertical level for my natural cant.

Then i rotate the bow up and down and ajust.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

"the level should be parallel to the sight ring"

No the level will not necessarily be "parallel" to the sight ring. It can be but not always. Put a 4 foot level vertically on a straight wall now turn it 45 degrees it still shows level. Now take one edge of the level off the wall. The more you go away from the wall with one edge the more out of level it will show. Now apply that to your sight you are simply trying to get the level to show level at an angle. You can either "hinge" the entire sight head or you can simply move the level to achieve the same thing. 

For the 10th time 3rd axis means your bubble shows level at an angle.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Unk Bond said:


> Now i start off squareing my sight houseing to my sight bar.
> As before explained, i set my bubble vial level with my natural repeatable holding cant.
> 
> Then i place a bolt rod in my stablizer theaded hole.I atach this rod in my bench leveling gig.Bring the bubble vial level once again.Now the bow is vertical level for my natural cant.
> ...


In other words you set 2nd axis at full draw then 3rd axis in a vise.


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

NTYMADATER said:


> Nice advertisement but not relevant to the issue. From what I read about 4th axis it only applies if you are using a slide bar. Thanks for your input.


Advertisement? Did I mention the name of the company? NO! Someone else brought up the 4th axis and I agreed! And if you don't think that it is relevant to this conversation, then I don't know what to tell you! I guess that's why people have been shimming their sight blocks (for those that don't have a Slide bar) for years!! The 4th axis keeps you from having to use shims, which is a trial and error, time consuming hassle! 

PS, I don't answer questions to "advertise" for my sponsors! I try and help based on years of trial and error and first hand experience. For those who care about having their sight aligned with the path of the arrow, you can either use shims or a 4th axis devise! Simple as that!


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> It has nothing to do with being perpendicular or 90 degrees to your arrow.


I must say you are gonna be in a mighty small minority if that is what you think my friend. It has EVERYTHING to do with the sight's level/head being perpendicular to the arrow!

Here is an excerpt from www.archerytech.com and no he ain't a sponsor of mine: Your arrow must be traveling perpendicular to your level bubble.

Here is one from the folks at Spot Hogg: http://spot-hogg.com/newsletter1.shtml

Another from Spot Hogg: http://spot-hogg.com/newsletter19.shtml

One from Sure Loc's instructions: (go to page 4 of this document, then to #2 and read). Pay particular attention to the phrase "square to the arrow"! http://sureloc.com/inst/icamassist.pdf 

From Hunter's Friend: (scroll down and read the section on 2nd and 3rd axis) http://www.huntersfriend.com/sight-selection-guide/compound-bow-sight-help.htm

The one thing you will find in common if you read these links is that they ALL believe that it is about having the sight's head/level perpendicular to the path of the arrow. Hell, maybe we are all wrong?


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

DaddyPaul said:


> I must say you are gonna be in a mighty small minority if that is what you think my friend. It has EVERYTHING to do with the sight's level/head being perpendicular to the arrow!
> 
> Here is an excerpt from www.archerytech.com and no he ain't a sponsor of mine: Your arrow must be traveling perpendicular to your level bubble.
> 
> ...


Is your head feeling any better 
From a conserned friend :wink:


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

Unk Bond said:


> Is your head feeling any better
> From a conserned friend :wink:


Nope! :lol3::lol3::lol3:


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm with daddy paul. perpendicular to the flight of the arrow is what's important because you are raising/lowering the bow for incline shots on an axis perpendicular to the flight of the arrow and not necessarily parallel to the long axis of the bow. if an arrow flew exactly perpendicular to a plumbed bow then it would be as easy as leveling in a jig/vise. yes the goal is to achieve a level bubble at all angles, but would only benefit you when your bow is in a position it would be to hit your target. 

that said, because many torques are introduced after full draw (i.e. release), field testing for right/left misses on long incline shots should be the deciding factor. if, at a given 3rd axis adjustment, you are shooting well left/right at varying inclines, then your third axis is properly adjusted for you. 

Sincerely,
Hope I'm right about that


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

danny_ross17 said:


> I'm with daddy paul. perpendicular to the flight of the arrow is what's important because you are raising/lowering the bow for incline shots on an axis perpendicular to the flight of the arrow and not necessarily parallel to the long axis of the bow. if an arrow flew exactly perpendicular to a plumbed bow then it would be as easy as leveling in a jig/vise. yes the goal is to achieve a level bubble at all angles, but would only benefit you when your bow is in a position it would be to hit your target.
> 
> that said, because many torques are introduced after full draw (i.e. release), field testing for right/left misses on long incline shots should be the deciding factor. if, at a given 3rd axis adjustment, you are shooting well left/right at varying inclines, then your third axis is properly adjusted for you.
> 
> ...


Bob,
Tell the man what he's won! :tongue::wink:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

NEVADAPRO said:


> Advertisement? Did I mention the name of the company? NO! Someone else brought up the 4th axis and I agreed! And if you don't think that it is relevant to this conversation, then I don't know what to tell you! I guess that's why people have been shimming their sight blocks (for those that don't have a Slide bar) for years!! The 4th axis keeps you from having to use shims, which is a trial and error, time consuming hassle!
> 
> PS, I don't answer questions to "advertise" for my sponsors! I try and help based on years of trial and error and first hand experience. For those who care about having their sight aligned with the path of the arrow, you can either use shims or a 4th axis devise! Simple as that!


You're right the advertisement comment should not have been said. However the question was "Can you set 3rd Axis in a vice?"

For some reason 4th axis keeps coming up.
Thanks for the input.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

DaddyPaul said:


> Bob,
> Tell the man what he's won! :tongue::wink:


I hope it's a cookie I'm hungry :tongue:

Bottom line if it works for you then do it. I just think for the average shooter like myself adjusting 3rd axis in a vise is much easier.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> I just think for the average shooter like myself adjusting 3rd axis in a vise is much easier.


In that case just set your sight head at a perfect 90 degrees to your sight's mounting plate or slide bar. If you only rotate the bow itself fore and aft and the sight is mounted parallel to the riser it will always be dead nuts when set perpendicular to the riser/mounting plate.

All I am trying to convey to you is that you want your sight head/bubble level to be at a right angle to your arrow's path. If you arrow's path is perfectly parallel to the plane of the bow's riser, then you are good to go. 

If your set up is like mine it will not be, thus the reason for slightly hinging the sight head one way or the other. It needs to be set on the vertical axis on which the arrow shaft will be launched from your bow, not simply your riser tipping up and down.

FWIW, I am at best an "AVERAGE" shooter brother, I just like my stuff to be as perfect as I can make it. I need all the help I can get! :wink:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Would you agree that 3rd axis and 4th axis are two totally different subjects?

You are explaining what is called 4th axis.

If your 3rd axis is set correctly it simply means your bubble shows level on angled shots. 

This is where some sight company's are coming up with the term "true 3rd axis adjustment". 

Sights like G5 requires you to adjust the level and not the entire sight head. If I had a spott hogg my sight head would be hinged also. Mounting plates and risers are not machined perfectly square so being level horizontally and vertically does not guarantee level at an angle thus the reason for a 3rd axis adjustment.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> Would you agree that 3rd axis and 4th axis are two totally different subjects?
> 
> You are explaining what is called 4th axis.


1. Yes, I agree that 3rd and 4th are different, kinda.

2. No it is not.

4th axis would only apply if you had a sliding extension bar like on a target sight, Sword 3rd Plane, Hogg-It, etc., or to a lesser degree if you had a sight with multiple sets of mounting holes in the plate. With a sliding bar you set your 3rd axis with the bar extended at a set distance. If your 4th axis is not set properly (meaning your extension is not on the same plane that you now have your sight head) everytime you move the sight in or out your windage will change.

This is because your sight bar is moving parallel to the riser but your hinged head, now being closer or farther away, is no longer perpendicular to the path of the arrow. If you move it farther away your POI will move left, move it closer and your POI will move right (for RH Bow).

All the 4th axis does is ensure that your windage is dead nuts no matter how far your sight head is extended or moved closer, but it is still ensuring that the path of the arrow is perpendicular to the sight head/bubble vial.


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Exactly 4th axis means your sight head is perpendiclur to the path of your arrow. This is what you have been talking about for 2 pages now.

3rd axis means your bubble shows level on an angle. I have been talking about 3rd axis. 

Now do you see that 3rd axis can be set in a vise?


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> Exactly 4th axis means your sight head is perpendiclur to the path of your arrow. This is what you have been talking about for 2 pages now.
> 
> 3rd axis means your bubble shows level on an angle. I have been talking about 3rd axis.
> 
> Now do you see that 3rd axis can be set in a vise?


Both 3rd and 4th axis is to ensure that the sight head is perpendicular to the path of the arrow. They, in principle, are the same exact thing with one slight exception.

3rd axis, unless you are lucky and find that it is dead nuts when set at a perfect 90 degrees to your riser, allows for the sight head to hinge slightly (most times the left side will come towards the shooter on a RH bow) to allow it to be perpendicular to the arrow's path at a GIVEN distance of sight extension from your riser.

4th axis does the same thing but instead of using your sight alone to do it, you adjust the angle in which the mounting plate/extension arm of the sight sits where it mounts to your bow. 

Like I said if you have an extendable sight and you set your 3rd axis at a given distance (sight extended XX inches from your bow) and also set your pins to a target, windage especially. Then you either move your sight further or closer to your bow, you will have to make a windage adjustment to hit the X. Unless like I said earlier you have it set perfectly at a 90 to the bow's riser (I haven't seen one like this yet).

With the 4th axis, not only have you set your 3rd axis with the sight head but the extension bar is also set on the same angle so that no matter how far you extend your sight away from your bow, or bring it in closer to your bow it will still have the sight head at a perfect 90 to the arrow's path.

One a side note, did everyone on AT get together and say, "Hey let's play a joke on DaddyPaul, well get you to ask a question and let him answer it and no matter how simple the terms he explains it in, you just keep failing to get it and argue with him?"

If that is the case, I give up, you got me. Believe whatever it is you wish to believe is 3rd and 4th axis, at this point I couldn't care less. You obviously didn't know for sure what it was when you asked the question and now that several of us have explained it you still refuse to buy it.

Good luck and safe shooting, I'm out of this one! :zip:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Why is it you guys with high post counts like to jump on guys with low post counts and try to tell them how dumb they are?

I have been shooting bows for 25 years. Although I don't consider myself an expert by any means I do know a few things about shooting.

You agreed that 3rd and 4th axis were two different subjects now you are saying they are the same thing. Make up your mind. All you are doing is repeating what you read off the spott hogg website. I'm not saying their information is incorrect but you need to remember they are trying to sell sights. Therefore a 3rd axis adjustment that requires hinging the sight head must be better. 

I never said your way was wrong and if it works for you that is good. Why do you insist on telling me I am wrong? Do you think I am the only person in the world that sets 3rd axis in a vice? If I were shooting 60 yards or better at angles then maybe I would see some left and right deviation. However it would require the use of a Hooter Shooter to tell the difference.

Good Luck


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

NTYMADATER said:


> Why is it you guys with high post counts like to jump on guys with low post counts and try to tell them how dumb they are?
> 
> I have been shooting bows for 25 years. Although I don't consider myself an expert by any means I do know a few things about shooting.
> 
> ...


OK, I take back everything I have said in this thread. 

Bottom line..........you're right, I'm wrong. 'Nuff said. :zip:


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## 206Moose (Apr 29, 2007)

Is that your final answer? :teeth: :cheers: :set1_punch: :set1_tango2:


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## fatboyshooter (Feb 9, 2010)

I have stood in front of my blank bale in the barn for hours shooting my bow, I have always thought my level should be set taking into consideration my natural cant of the bow @ full draw. A lot of my practice is with my eyes closed, draw the bow to my comfortable relaxed anchor point then open my eyes and find that the bow must be canted to my left to get the bubble in the middle of the lines so I set my scope to accommodate my form. I have my own 3D course set up in my woods and the course has up hill and down hill shots, the method you are describing works for me.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

fatboyshooter said:


> I have stood in front of my blank bale in the barn for hours shooting my bow, I have always thought my level should be set taking into consideration my natural cant of the bow @ full draw. A lot of my practice is with my eyes closed, draw the bow to my comfortable relaxed anchor point then open my eyes and find that the bow must be canted to my left to get the bubble in the middle of the lines so I set my scope to accommodate my form. I have my own 3D course set up in my woods and the course has up hill and down hill shots, the method you are describing works for me.


Hello
Set your sight bar .Vertical level, to your natural holding of the bow at anchor . If you need more help, on how to atain this. Just ask [ Later


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