# Tail High no matter what I try..



## Stephan C (Sep 10, 2006)

Equipment/specs

08 Hoyt Katera XL
65lbs 28" draw
Carbon Express Maxima Hunter 27" arrows
WB deluxe rest

I had the timing set by Mike at Terminal Velocity about 2 months ago, but when I started to BH tune, I could not get them to group with FPs

SO....... I figured I would Paper tune to a bullet hole and start over.

I cannot get the Tail high tear corrected no matter how I move the rest. I even tried to bare shaft paper tune and still get a tail high tear

Any and all suggestions appreciated


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## bwilson_21 (Oct 12, 2009)

You can only move your rest up so much even to the point of it not functioning properly ( some brands ). You did not even say if you moved your nocking point which really shoud be the first thng you move.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Stephan C said:


> Equipment/specs
> 
> 08 Hoyt Katera XL
> 65lbs 28" draw
> ...


First, install some different nocks on the maximas. The maxamas nock are too tight on the string. 

Second, make sure your loop ins't pinching the arrow to tightly.

Third, try a different rest. wb rests are not the best for tuning. Another rest may give you better results.


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## Stephan C (Sep 10, 2006)

*Thanks*

thanks for the replies. The nock is set to have the arrow 90deg to the string while running thru the center of the berger hole. Tiller is within 1/16 inch of even (lower limb is slightly closer)

I would like to stick with the WB for its simplicity. In the last 15 yrs of bowhunting, I have strayed from the WB several times (after switching to it the first year it came out), but keep coming back to its "bombproofness"

Additional suggestions still appreciated


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## OCD (Jan 19, 2008)

Have you tried dropping the rest, or raising your d-loop? I know it sounds backwards, but the arrow could be trying to come out of the bow, nock low, and "banking" off of the rest.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You still lack info. Some replies give good info.
Are you using a loop? Check for nock pinch.
If nocks were too tight on the string the nock would stay there upon firing.
Timing; Could be a issue. Strings require shooting time to settle in and once settled then timing should be done. Check draw stop timing (see Javi's Sticky in this forum). If you can't check on your own have someone watch as you come to full draw. The bottom cam stop and the string laying level in the top cam should happen at the same time.
I'm not a lover of the Whisker Biscuit, but this should not be a issue unless you have the newest model out. I can't see how shooting through the angled biscuit could give good results. Guessing here, this new biscuit must require the arrow to be set to it and the arrow set to 90 degrees of the string instead of the arrow intersecting the berger hole.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Stephan C said:


> thanks for the replies. The nock is set to have the arrow 90deg to the string while running thru the center of the berger hole. Tiller is within 1/16 inch of even (lower limb is slightly closer)
> 
> I would like to stick with the WB for its simplicity. In the last 15 yrs of bowhunting, I have strayed from the WB several times (after switching to it the first year it came out), but keep coming back to its "bombproofness"
> 
> Additional suggestions still appreciated


I would still try another rest just to see if it takes care of the problem. It is a process of elimination. I use the octane pro which is simular to a wb except that the fletching doesn't contact the bristles. It holds the arrow very secure and can be adjusted for different diameter arrows. SonnyThomas made a suggestion about checking the timing. This is a must on the hoyts. If your nocking point is located too high on the string, this can cause tuning problems as well. Check the top cam for any lean as well.


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## Stephan C (Sep 10, 2006)

Using a d loop with serving inside the loop to eliminate pinch.

Timing set by Mike Deck at Terminal Velocity--I have been told he is the best hoyt guy in Ohio.

New model WB. it is 90 deg to the string

rest has been moved thru its entire range of motion up and down and tail high still shows even with bare shafts.

what else am I missing?????I have been tuning and shooting bows for 15 years and this one has me stumped...


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## ffemtp (Oct 24, 2002)

Stephan C said:


> thanks for the replies. The nock is set to have the arrow 90deg to the string while running thru the center of the berger hole. Tiller is within 1/16 inch of even (lower limb is slightly closer)
> 
> I would like to stick with the WB for its simplicity. In the last 15 yrs of bowhunting, I have strayed from the WB several times (after switching to it the first year it came out), but keep coming back to its "bombproofness"
> 
> Additional suggestions still appreciated


How high is the tear? Try to get your tiller dead even and then set it to the top limb being closer and see if that makes any difference. Also timing needs to be spot on. 
Set the arrow going dead center through your burger hole and then lower the nock and see if that works. I had a Hoyt X-tech that would not respond to moving the rest for some reason, had to move the nock to get it the work. I know in theory raising the rest should do the same thing, but for some strange reason, would not work for me.


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## 3dshooter80 (Mar 13, 2006)

what spine of arrow are you shooting? sounds like a slightly weak shaft to me.


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## splitbeam145 (Jun 25, 2008)

sickwithit said:


> Have you tried dropping the rest, or raising your d-loop? I know it sounds backwards, but the arrow could be trying to come out of the bow, nock low, and "banking" off of the rest.


My wife has a hoyt v-tec with cam and 1/2. Shooting WB rest also. With nock point 90 degrees to the rest she was hitting tail end high 1"-1 1/4" high. 
I remembered something about doing the opposite of what you would normally do tuning a bow when shooting a WB. She is shooting a D-loop, so I move the loop up to where her nocking point was 1/4"-3/8" above 90 degrees point. She shot 6 arrows and all shot bullet hole. FP and BH are shooting 1" difference at 20yds. It's sound crazy but something about the way the arrows going thru the WB is different than a regular dropaway of prong rest. Give this a try and you may be surprised.


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## no1huntmaster (Dec 30, 2006)

3dshooter80 said:


> what spine of arrow are you shooting? sounds like a slightly weak shaft to me.


Try a tip about 20 grains less...see waht happens.
I normally consider this a week spine issue as well.


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## srcarlso (Mar 3, 2005)

*arrows*

Are your arrows tight in the WB opening? If not, when the vanes hit it (assuming you are shooting cock vane up), the lower two vane want to push the arrow up...pull the arrow through manually to see what I mean. 

The bows with WB's I have tuned for other guys have all reacted this way when the arrow is loose. When the arrow is fitted to the hole, it tunes well normally.


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## Stephan C (Sep 10, 2006)

3dshooter80 said:


> what spine of arrow are you shooting? sounds like a slightly weak shaft to me.



They are 250s. I have had several "pros" tell me they were the correct ones. I will try some 85 gr field points or buy a couple of 350s and see what happens..

Its too late in the season for these kinds of problems--this is really just for my own edification ( and next season) now....as much as I hate to say it..


I have moved to the "dark side".........I now own a TenPoint crossbow...

thanks for all the help. I will try a stiffer shaft and a tighter hole :wink:


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## lkmn (Feb 28, 2006)

Stephan C said:


> They are 250s. I have had several "pros" tell me they were the correct ones. I will try some 85 gr field points or buy a couple of 350s and see what happens..
> 
> Its too late in the season for these kinds of problems--this is really just for my own edification ( and next season) now....as much as I hate to say it..
> 
> ...


According to the Carbon Express Arrow Charts @28" and 65lbs you should be shooting the 350's..


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

Possible causes.

Clearance issues with rest.
Too weak a spine.


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## gutpile421 (Jul 1, 2007)

*wb*

throw the whisker biscuit in the trash and try another rest


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

as some have suggested probably spine issue as i had same problem here

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1044079

lighten point, shorten shaft, to confirm


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## Stihlpro (Jul 19, 2006)

3dshooter80 said:


> what spine of arrow are you shooting? sounds like a slightly weak shaft to me.


Yes it is.....Take 1 arrow and cut it down if possible and shoot it again through paper or bare shaft it with 3 of the others that are fletched cut to same length. ....Don't know how much extra you have to play with but I have dealt with this problem before and it was a weak shaft. :darkbeer:


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

http://www.trophyridge.com/tips-tricks

See question no. 3. 

Its common but I have tried different spines with not much luck just seems to be the nature of the rest especially with the binaries cams Ive shot. I've tried 340's and 400's and they act the same. I might try a 500 this evening out of curiousity although thats way underspined for my bow.

You can do bareshaft to get a straight up and down arrow but the tail will still kick. Get the bareshaft to line up on the same vertical (|) plane as the fletched arrows and try to get the field point to hit near the fletched arrow fieldpoints and dont worry about the tail. Then move on to broadhead tuning out to 30 yards to get the vertical adjustment more in tune. Use a true flying broadhead like a ST, Montec, or Nap Nightmare. Once they are close at 30 yards, I would do some group tuning at 20 yards. Took me about 2 hours the other day to get it right, but now its on.

Start with nock about 1/4" high. I started level and that caused most of the frustration.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

welcome to "Nock High" with a cam & 1/2, any flavor.

I have several Hoyt cam formats in operation, every one will give ne a nock high with the cams timed to perfection.

Try this, put a turn in the control cable, ignore the ugly timing ala JAVI, bring the nock to square and see if it's better. Most likely will be, or even cured. If it get' s better, not best, take a turn outa' the bus, or a half turn out of the yoke on each side.

Of the last several Hoyt's I've owned not a one shot for a hoot with perfect timing. One day I shot a round of 3D with Tom DeRisio of Strictly Archery fame in Washington, NJ. He set me straight, and it's workin' ever since.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

TMan51 said:


> welcome to "Nock High" with a cam & 1/2, any flavor.
> 
> I have several Hoyt cam formats in operation, every one will give ne a nock high with the cams timed to perfection.
> 
> ...


I wonder if you could mimic that with binaries.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

HammyAbeer said:


> I wonder if you could mimic that with binaries.


Actually, the same effect can be managed a couple ways. On my older Hoyt's, pre Cam & 1/2, (Twin Cams), I used cam timing to correct for nock high, on my even older Jennings TStar's, tiller tuning with the limb bolts was the accepted method. Binary / Hybrid cams are slaved, and supposedly need no adjustments and are non-critical for timing (bunk).

Usually the culprit is grip style. Most bow grips today are designed to accomodate a low wrist position. Another problem is the size of the shooters hand, people with large hands put more stress on the lower limb, people with smaller hands tend to stress the upper limb. I shoot with a high wrist, and that's the source of my problem.

FWIW, I have used that type of adjustments on a couple of Bowtech's, works fine. The suggestion I got a few years back from Mike Cooper, (Javi), was to add a turn to one of the cables, bring the arrow to slightly above square, and see if it's better or worse. If better, try another turn in that cable, or take a turn out of the other. If worse, go the other way.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

TMan51 said:


> Actually, the same effect can be managed a couple ways. On my older Hoyt's, pre Cam & 1/2, (Twin Cams), I used cam timing to correct for nock high, on my even older Jennings TStar's, tiller tuning with the limb bolts was the accepted method. Binary / Hybrid cams are slaved, and supposedly need no adjustments and are non-critical for timing (bunk).
> 
> Usually the culprit is grip style. Most bow grips today are designed to accomodate a low wrist position. Another problem is the size of the shooters hand, people with large hands put more stress on the lower limb, people with smaller hands tend to stress the upper limb. I shoot with a high wrist, and that's the source of my problem.
> 
> FWIW, I have used that type of adjustments on a couple of Bowtech's, works fine. The suggestion I got a few years back from Mike Cooper, (Javi), was to add a turn to one of the cables, bring the arrow to slightly above square, and see if it's better or worse. If better, try another turn in that cable, or take a turn out of the other. If worse, go the other way.


By copying your method for the cam and 1/2, I would rotate the upper cam and lower cam counter-clockwise by adjusting the cables, which would cant the string like this /. I'll give it a try after my hunting trip. I got her where I want her for now.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

HammyAbeer said:


> By copying your method for the cam and 1/2, I would rotate the upper cam and lower cam counter-clockwise by adjusting the cables,


Hammy, it depends on which one you twist.

Set the bow in a quiet spot.

Look at it carefully.

If you shorten either one of the cables, it will pull the other cable in the other direction. It's not "Zen Tuning" but it's pretty obvious (with practice). FYI, when I swapped posts with earlier tuners, it wasn't obvious.


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## mach x (Dec 27, 2006)

TMan51 said:


> welcome to "Nock High" with a cam & 1/2, any flavor.
> 
> I have several Hoyt cam formats in operation, every one will give ne a nock high with the cams timed to perfection.
> 
> ...



I have also ran into this. With my AM32 I started with timing dead on. When creep tuning I had to make adjustments to the cable. Now the timing is slightly off but the speeds have gone up a few fps and the bow shoots great. My X-Force needed the same type of adjusting to the cables when creep tuning.


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## NoSecondBest (Jan 18, 2009)

3dshooter80 said:


> what spine of arrow are you shooting? sounds like a slightly weak shaft to me.


That's exactly what I was thinking.


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## rjharcher (Feb 1, 2008)

*Nock must be.......*

With a WB or any full containment rest (hostage,NAP360) you have to set your nock point high. I usually start 1/8th high and tune from there. The amount high you end up with will vary with the make and model of bow you are shooting. Doing this I have been able to get the tear high out, the only exception was when I was working with a bow that had a bad limb on it.


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

TMan51 said:


> Hammy, it depends on which one you twist.
> 
> Set the bow in a quiet spot.
> 
> ...


I monkeyed with it and tried both directions with not much change in rest orientation, so I went back to having the cams on the previous spot. I did some broadhead tuning at 40 yards and got some better grouping.

The tail high messes with your mind. I got tail high, but broadhead high... HMMM. Raise rest, tail goes higher, arrow goes higher, broadhead goes higher. I lowered the rest and all is right in the world except the way it looks. I feel like Im going to shoot my foot off.

I hate and love biscuits at the same time.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

HammyAbeer said:


> IThe tail high messes with your mind. I got tail high, but broadhead high... HMMM. Raise rest, tail goes higher, arrow goes higher, broadhead goes higher. I lowered the rest and all is right in the world except the way it looks. I feel like Im going to shoot my foot off.
> 
> I hate and love biscuits at the same time.


Well, I have had mixed results from a WB on several occassions.

Tail high/ broadhead high, is confusing. ya got me, you need a WB wizard.

Laura the Martin girl uses one. Even if she did't fix the problem, it would be better


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## bow_hunter44 (Apr 20, 2007)

I'm shooting a Turbohawk/Biscuit and having the same issue. Specs are 59 lbs, 28" draw. I was bare shaft tuning with a 500 arrow at 26" and a 400 at 28" - both with a 100 grain tip. I put tape on the back end of the arrow to mimic the weight of the wrap and fletching. Timing on the cams is dead nuts. The result, tail high through the entire vertical adjustment of the rest!! Frustration is not nearly a strong enough word!


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## HuntWhenever (Jan 4, 2010)

Picked this thread up researching for the same thing. 

Turbohawk....specs are in my signature. Bareshafts flying tail-high. Broadheads hitting about 6" low at 30 yards.

So which is better....move nock point 1/4" up from level? Or adjust control cable and have level arrow nock point? Or no difference, just personal preference?


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