# Bad guess on ydg. What does it really mean?



## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

For of this discussion (and, I'm not looking to get into a deep discussion!), let's assume that the shot execution is perfect on every shot.

Let's say my bow is shooting a 360gr. arrow at 264fps...........and I guessed 35yds (trying to make this as realistic as possible). The target is really 40yds., and I've aimed for the center 10 ring of a McKenzie Wild Boar.

In the 2nd scenario, my bow is shooting the same arrow at the same target at the same distance.......285fps.

I'm not looking for the exact POI on the target. I'm trying to justify my purchase.....lol. 

I thought it might be an eye opener (or, maybe it won't) to some on just how much arrow drop is in play. I absolutely don't know what the results will be (difference).

Thanks.

My objective here is to learn just how important hitting the +/- 3% of 180fps ASA really is.....for (of course) unknown ydg.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

I would guess your 264 bow is a borderline zero/5 and your 285 is a borderline 5/8 (this was assuming you aimed in the center of the 10 ring, like you stated). Somebody with one of the archery programs can figure it out exactly I think.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I just realized I said +/- 3% of 180.....and, of course, I meant 280fps.

Sorry


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, 5 yards is a bunch. So at that distance a probable miss, low. So yardage practice is greatly needed. And depending on things a lighter arrow would help. I have two arrows for 3D. One weighs 322 grs and the other 282 grs. 

The faster bow, 21 fps, will help, but still you're looking at a near miss or 8. So yardage practice is still needed. 

Find a program or site that will give you exact arrow height placement and figure on the ASA ProAm tour 10 rings are 5" in diameter.....


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

All great advice. Since I recently turned 50, I can shoot senior known (I think this is a 45 yd class) or senior unknown. For the senior known, I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong) this would be a moot point? I'm also assuming I could shoot the heavier arrows for an NFAA (60, 50 & 40) and reap the benefits of the extra weight?

For the unknown, what would you suggest for an arrow......given that I can achieve the 280fps mark?

Thanks!


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

EPLC said:


> Your answer is "not much". Below is a trajectory chart from Archers Advantage.
> At 265 fps you will hit the ten ring with a perfect shot with an estimate of between 37.3 and 42.3
> At 285 fps you will hit the ten ring with a perfect shot with an estimate of between 36.9 and 42.7
> 
> The real difference is at 265 fps you would have to be within 2.5 yards, high or low, to hit the ten ring. At 285 you would have to be within 2.9 yards.


Does this assume I'm aiming for the center (in each scenario)? If so, there would only be a 2-1/2" "safety net"......correct?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

JV NC said:


> For of this discussion (and, I'm not looking to get into a deep discussion!), let's assume that the shot execution is perfect on every shot.
> 
> Let's say my bow is shooting a 360gr. arrow at 264fps...........and I guessed 35yds (trying to make this as realistic as possible). The target is really 40yds., and I've aimed for the center 10 ring of a McKenzie Wild Boar.
> 
> ...


The difference in score between 285 and 265 fps with a 35 yard estimate shot at a true 40 yards with perfect execution would be getting a 5 or just catching the 8 with the higher speed. The chart below represents both estimates at the different speeds. There would be just short of an inch more drop with the slower speed than the faster example.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Almost all of the open a shooters or semi pro shooters will have their bow shooting in the 290's but every once in a while there will be a guy that shows up that has a bow shooting at 270 or 265 fps and it is amazing to see the difference in arrow flight that their bows have. It is night and day different and when they screw up it is huge and a really high or low hit is going to bite their score.

I did shoot with a guy at the oklahoma regions last year in open a and he was shooting a 270 fps bow on the freaking hardest course I have ever shot and he actually won shooting even for the weekend.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I believe misses in 3D are more the result of pure execution than misjudging yardage. Not trusting your estimate will cause more issues than if you just make your best shot on every target. Lack of thrust will cause more "tweaking" of the actual shot than you can imagine... and if you are not making good shots the yardage estimation will never improve. The mind needs good shots to adjust how it sees yardage correctly. If you make a bad shot, even if the yardage was estimated correctly, how will you know you got it right? If you just make good shots your mind will make the necessary adjustments as you go.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

EPLC said:


> I believe misses in 3D are more the result of pure execution than misjudging yardage. Not trusting your estimate will cause more issues than if you just make your best shot on every target. Lack of thrust will cause more "tweaking" of the actual shot than you can imagine... and if you are not making good shots the yardage estimation will never improve. The mind needs good shots to adjust how it sees yardage correctly. If you make a bad shot, even if the yardage was estimated correctly, how will you know you got it right? If you just make good shots your mind will make the necessary adjustments as you go.


I read a similar comment you wrote a while back. I'm buying what you're selling. After I set my sight on the number, the guesswork's done. I need to commit. I shot a few terrible shots last weekend, when I didn't (commit). I'm not talking high or low.......as that would mean I merely misjudged the ydg. I'm talking big misses (for me). I had a few where I shot straight high and low, also. I can live with those.

All in all, it was my first round shooting "open" setup. I screwed my stabilizers on last Tuesday and shot the tournament, Sunday. I was not displeased with the score, but I have lots to learn.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Most people think of judging a 40 yard target to be at 35 yards and then ask where the arrow will impact.

Lets consider a 35 yard target judged to be 40 yards. Now how high is the arrow going to hit out of a fast bow?

Bad distance judging affects fast bows as well as slow bows.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

jim p said:


> Most people think of judging a 40 yard target to be at 35 yards and then ask where the arrow will impact.
> 
> Lets consider a 35 yard target judged to be 40 yards. Now how high is the arrow going to hit out of a fast bow?
> 
> Bad distance judging affects fast bows as well as slow bows.


Incorrect both judging long or short will impact the slow bow more


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

JV NC said:


> For of this discussion (and, I'm not looking to get into a deep discussion!), let's assume that the shot execution is perfect on every shot.
> 
> Let's say my bow is shooting a 360gr. arrow at 264fps...........and I guessed 35yds (trying to make this as realistic as possible). The target is really 40yds., and I've aimed for the center 10 ring of a McKenzie Wild Boar.
> 
> ...


Well I can only get you very close, as I dont have your sight to peep measurement - 

But running your numbers 

Missing your yardage by 5 yards 

264 fps drops 4.8 inches
285 fps drops 4.03 inches

Really not a huge difference -


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I calculated it out and the slower bow will drop 5.64" more than the faster bow at 40yards.

Time of flight would be .455sec for the slower bow and only .421sec for the faster bow. 

You can find the vertical location of a projectile in motion with this equation.








y0 is the initial height, I used 5', vy0 is the initial velocity in the y direction, going to be 0 because I'm assuming no upward trajectory ; and ay is the acceleration in the y direction, in this case the only acceleration is gravity at -32 f/s2; and t is the time it takes to get to the target, .455sec and .421sec. 

Slower bow drops 3.31' at 40 yards and the faster bow drops 2.84' at 40. 3.31-2.84 = .47' or 5.64"


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Huntinsker said:


> I calculated it out and the slower bow will drop 5.64" more than the faster bow at 40yards.


You need to check them calculations - no way will it drop 5.64 inches MORE......


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

It would take a bow shooting 191 fps vs 285 to drop 5.64 inches more at 40....that is setting sight for 35 as they mentioned.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Garceau said:


> You need to check them calculations - no way will it drop 5.64 inches MORE......


I got the calculations from here. http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/tips/angle-shots.html


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I got mine from OT2 which everyone is using to print many tapes off of....Id be willing to guess you missed a calculation in there.

An additional 5 plus inches is a TON.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Garceau said:


> I got mine from OT2 which everyone is using to print many tapes off of....Id be willing to guess you missed a calculation in there.
> 
> An additional 5 plus inches is a TON.


I'm just going off of those calculations. You can check my work. I edited my initial post with the equation and information.


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

I'm do a test tomm. My wife's is shooting 260 fps and I'm right at 290 tomm afternoon when we practice I'm gone dial 30 and shoot a 35 yd target and let her shoot at the same target with her 30 pin and do a Lil measuring will post results afterwards


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Garceau said:


> Well I can only get you very close, as I dont have your sight to peep measurement -
> 
> But running your numbers
> 
> ...


About .75" difference seems right on a 20 fps spread.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> About .75" difference seems right on a 20 fps spread.


And that is assuming that you can HOLD that steady and the arrows are nearly always going to where you are looking/behind the site pin, too! In a 'perfect world' that is, haha. When you are shooting at a 3-D target with nothing really positive upon which to hold, often times you "think" you missed where you thought it would go...but in reality, you were not HOLDING where it should have been...and add to that a mis-estimation of the yardage and...count your '8' or your '5.' HAHAHAHA.
I like 3-D even tho I don't shoot much of it because you have to learn to visualize your "hold" when there is really nothing "solid" to aim at. You really end up having to TRUST YOUR SHOT and go with it. I sure hope they NEVER put aiming dots on 3-D targets! YUK! Redding is a shoot in and of itself as is the Fresno Safari...enough already.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Here's a 5 yard mess up with a bow cranking 284.5 fps. First shot, top hole, was with sight set for 25 yards. I then reset for 20 yards. 
Me and my one shot at a time, at least 5 and maybe more in that ragged hole.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

So would someone check my math so I know if I'm way off. Math wasn't my best subject but I don't think I'm that bad.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

Huntinsker said:


> So would someone check my math so I know if I'm way off. Math wasn't my best subject but I don't think I'm that bad.


Where's Padgett when you need him? :wink: - John


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## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

Math is fine, just incomplete.

it doesnt account for a rezero.....which is the "upward trajectory" that was left out.
theres probably more variables that need to be considered (that we dont know on his setup)

But it would be way easier to go shoot two different weight arrows and prove it
key is to resight (at least rezero 40yd), which is where many people forget before blabbing how much flatter the light arrow shoots


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

But if you were shooting the arrow perfectly horizontal to the ground, my math is correct. The difference is that you would change the initial trajectory of the slower arrow to a higher angle and that's why the real life difference in POI would be smaller. Got it.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Huntinsker said:


> But if you were shooting the arrow perfectly horizontal to the ground, my math is correct. The difference is that you would change the initial trajectory of the slower arrow to a higher angle and that's why the real life difference in POI would be smaller. Got it.


^^This. 

The parallax is different for both. But, gravity is gravity. The parallax has us shooting up (from below.....to.....then above.....and back down to) the line of the sight pin on every shot (every shot outside 8 or so yds) we judge perfectly.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Huntinsker said:


> But if you were shooting the arrow perfectly horizontal to the ground, my math is correct. The difference is that you would change the initial trajectory of the slower arrow to a higher angle and that's why the real life difference in POI would be smaller. Got it.


But we are not, we are aiming at a target with a different reset for zero basically (35 vs 40) your math may be correct - I have no reason to doubt it, but it was applied completely wrong in the context of the original question. Sorry -


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This is a interesting topic that I have had to address over the last couple years many times. I really prefer shooting at 58lbs but at that poundage I have to use 100 grain points and I am shooting just about 295 fps but I get more glance outs into the 8 ring. So I can use 125 grain points in my arrows and shoot with 62lbs and my speed drops to 292 fps and my arrows don't glance out as bad and I am still in the 290's. 

To me this is just part of the game to find the things that you are comfortable and confident in to compete at your highest level possible, to me the moment that you choose to leave the 290's for speed and dip into the low 280's or heaven forbid the 270's you are choosing to accept a lot of extra arrow drop that I am not willing to accept. The fact is the slower the arrow the more it drops compared to a faster one so it comes down to you being able to deal with it mentally or not. I justify my setup and compete with it with 100% confidence that I am making a good decision and that is really important when you are shooting a stinking little coyote at 49 stinking yards in the shade in a tunnel where they took 15 yards of the ground away from you and you drove 500 miles and paid your entry fees and are missing your daughters volleyball tournament.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

As far as math even though I am a math teacher I don't like doing to much math on this subject other than what I consider practical math. For example I do more work on how to stay in the 10 ring than anything else when aiming directly at the 12 ring. Just two days ago I went to 50 yards and I shot and yeas I was dead on with my needle setting on my sight tape and so without resetting my sight I took a step forward to 49 yards and I shot and my arrow hit about 2 inches high and i shot about 5 arrows there and then I took another step forward to 48 yards and I was hitting the upper 12 ring just under the 10 line barely and then when I stepped up to 47.5 yards I was hitting about a inch out the top of the 10 ring. 

To me that is the practical math that I do to learn how to use my arrow tradjectory to my benefit, when I step up to a stinking really long max target on my course I can just set my pin on 50 and as long as the target is 50 49 or 48 yards I can take my 10 and go to the next target. All I have to do is not screw up and shoot a 47 yard target for 50 and shoot out the top.

On the other end of the spectrum is the dreaded 20 yard pin, the range officials are freaking good at picking a certain target and putting it at 23 yards and it is a big target that makes the distance look like it is 20 yds dead on and if you sit your pin on 20 you will shoot out the bottom about a quarter inch and get a freaking 8 all day long. So learning how much your arrow is actually dropping at those distances and then picking a number that you can compete with and insure a solid 10 on the top of the 12 ring or a solid 12 is the key. In fact the more i shoot asa it is getting hard for me to justify putting my pin for less than 25 yards because I go to 20 yards all the time and I set my pin on 25 and I shoot the top edge of the 12 ring over and over and sure if I had picked 20 perfectly I could have smoked it but shooting a 8 on a 24 yard target basically screws you up so freaking much that it just isn't worth it because you shot it for 21.

So as a guy who has progressed to the semi pro class this year I have in my mind how much my arrow is dropping at all distances from 20 t0 50 yards so that I can use that information to set my sight to stay nibbling at 12's all day long and hopefully hit some but at the same time I want to stay on top of the 12 in that nice safe 10 area above it. The fact that on a 20 yard target that you can set your sight on 25 and hit pretty good compared to shooting a long 50yard target and knowing that you have to be within 2 yards on your guess to stay in the 10 ring is the key.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Just curious why you wouldn't add a couple and shoot the bottom out, then, if you're that confident you'll hit what you're aiming at?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Crap, I am not sure what you meant in your question. Ask again and then I will try to answer.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

A few years ago I met my local semi pro shooter and started listening to him talk about his 3d game and how he played it and I simply didn't believe him. It took me getting my butt kicked by him over and over to finally start listening to him and start building my own 3d game. 

Your 3d game is how you aim and how you set up your bow and how you deal with ranging the distance and how you look at the shot pattern on the target and how you deal with three fat arrows already in the stinking 12 ring and do you go for the upper 12 or squeeze in and how do you carry food and drink so you don't hit the wall and how do you sight in your bow and everything else. 

Right now my 3d game is good enough to get on the podium in open a and win out and get to semi pro, i have to continue to improve my game and tweak things while showing up and being 100% confident in my game for that weekend.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Crap, I am not sure what you meant in your question. Ask again and then I will try to answer.


If you're extremely confident on your ability to hit what you're aiming at, why wouldn't you aim at the bottom of the 12 ring (on the target that's 24yds.....that you shot for 21yds) and add a couple to your estimate (at the close range target you described, earlier)? 

I'm barely intermediate...lol, but it would be putting the odds in your favor (assuming, again, that you can absolutely hit what you're aiming for).


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

JV NC said:


> If you're extremely confident on your ability to hit what you're aiming at, why wouldn't you aim at the bottom of the 12 ring (on the target that's 24yds.....that you shot for 21yds) and add a couple to your estimate (at the close range target you described, earlier)?
> 
> I'm barely intermediate...lol, but it would be putting the odds in your favor (assuming, again, that you can absolutely hit what you're aiming for).



I actually do this with the upper 12 on shorter targets...and sometimes the lower. 

I know I tend to not take enough yardage off of short targets for the reason Padgett stated....I don't practice short like I should and there is always a little disbelief..."they wouldn't put a mule deer at 21 yards, right?"

So, I learned that my success rate went up for the short targets by setting my sight for the lowest possible yardage it could be and holding it on the top edge of the upper. I fall through it and catch lots of them. How many "yards wide" is a 12 ring from edge to edge?... More than you think on <34 yard targets. Try it.

Now, why the upper?... It is basically easier to aim at on short targets for me. Due to lighting, I can often see it...but not the lower. So, you can tend not to aim as hard at the lower (not at the bottom of it anyway) with as high of success rate....it is often 1" from a 5, in the dark, and 2-3" from a zero in some cases.

But, on longer targets where I am aiming at the silhouette, I will often dial the "biggest number" and hold it on the bottom of the 12.... Its like setting a bumper.... I know I can't miss in one direction, so I use the whole scoring area to my advantage in the other direction.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I did the same thing in a tournament earlier this year. I got there and they told me I couldn't move my sight, although it's allowed in the local shoots. I also knew I didn't stand a chance in the open class. So, I set my sight on (_____yds) and shot 20 targets calling almost all high 12's.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

What tmorelli just described was a great explanation of how to play the asa 3d game and if you are a really good decision maker and have very good course management it can be a great way to do things and not be standing there after shooting a 8 on a freaking easy target.

Now to answer your question WHY?

Because to me there are many things that could happen:

1. You are first up on the target and even though it is a easy shot you really can't see the 12 ring very well so aiming perfect is a crap shoot. So I am going to still add a little safety yardage to my perfect guess and make the shot dead on.

2. There is a shot up spot on the target where foam is missing and it has a tractor beam affect on it and will try to pull your arrow towards it and if it is near the 8 line on the bottom then it means that it is farther than it looks and again setting a little safety yardage to your perfect guess and holding dead on is a good choice.

3. You are later in the group and by the time it is your turn there are already two or three xxx fat shafts in the 12 ring blocking most of the foam in the 12 ring and now you have to really aim well and shoot at some open foam or choose to go upper and use tmorelli's method.

4. You are 5th and there are two fat shafts in the upper and two in the lower and now you are really screwed and need to make a quality shot that gives you a chance to get the easy 12 and hopefully not glance out into a 8 or 5 when you bang one of them from behind.

5. You are second to go and the first shooter hits on the edge of the 12 ring and now you have a great marker to aim off of and make a really quality effort at the 12 ring using a very good number where you aren't adding much if any safety yardage.

Last year in Paris I was tied for first in open a after day one and by the end of the day I actually had shot good enough to still have a chance and the last shot was a stinking 17 or so yard shot and I had to freaking go last in a group of 5 guys who were all within 3 points of first place. They all stepped up and made a solid shot and all 4 of them got their 12 and both the upper and lower 12's were freaking blocked really bad and the only sliver of 12 ring i could see was the upper 12 near the connector line and it was about a 1/8 inch of 12 ring and the connector line so I had about a 1/4 inch of 12 ring to aim at. I set my sight and I aimed at it and I missed my little sliver by about a 1/8 inch and I had to settle for 3rd and I missed out on getting a sweet belt buckle.

These are the little parts of the 3d game that you have to learn to play to be competitive.


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## crazyhoyt (May 30, 2011)

Wow, 280-290 fp's . That must be nice, my 3D rig shoots a whopping 255!! Shooting a 26 DL kills my speed, to get even close to them numbers I would need to shoot 70 lbs with bare minimum arrow weight an still couldn't get that much. At least knowing this helps me with my yardage estimates, but speed would sure be great.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Huntinsker said:


> I calculated it out and the slower bow will drop 5.64" more than the faster bow at 40yards.
> 
> Time of flight would be .455sec for the slower bow and only .421sec for the faster bow.
> 
> ...


Your calculations are not coming up with anywhere near the correct numbers. I think you are calculating trajectory, not drop at 40 yards with a 35 yard setting. And... we're talking inches, not feet.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> And that is assuming that you can HOLD that steady and the arrows are nearly always going to where you are looking/behind the site pin, too! In a 'perfect world' that is, haha. When you are shooting at a 3-D target with nothing really positive upon which to hold, often times you "think" you missed where you thought it would go...but in reality, you were not HOLDING where it should have been...and add to that a mis-estimation of the yardage and...count your '8' or your '5.' HAHAHAHA.
> I like 3-D even tho I don't shoot much of it because you have to learn to visualize your "hold" when there is really nothing "solid" to aim at. You really end up having to TRUST YOUR SHOT and go with it. I sure hope they NEVER put aiming dots on 3-D targets! YUK! Redding is a shoot in and of itself as is the Fresno Safari...enough already.
> field14 (Tom D.)


The assumption we are working off is these are perfectly executed shots. The question was what the difference was between the two speeds.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

EPLC said:


> Your calculations are not coming up with anywhere near the correct numbers. I think you are calculating trajectory, not drop at 40 yards with a 35 yard setting. And... we're talking inches, not feet.


My numbers agree with huntinsiker.. What are the correct numbers? Of course this calc. does not take into account trajectory or wind resistance considerations. Of course the slower bow will have a higher initial trajectory. Units are irrelevant as long as your consistent.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

EPLC, does your software output the height where the blue line is in the plot?


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## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

nochance said:


> My numbers agree with huntinsiker.. What are the correct numbers? Of course this calc. does not take into account trajectory or wind resistance considerations. Of course the slower bow will have a higher initial trajectory. Units are irrelevant as long as your consistent.


Scroll up a few and Huntsinker explains why that particular formula leads to incorrect results.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nochance said:


> EPLC, does your software output the height where the blue line is in the plot?


Here's the plot of an arrow shot perfectly at 265 fps with a 35 YD sight setting at a McKenzie Wild Boar that is actually at 40 TDS. The yellow represents the Kill Zone (8 ring) on the target which is approximately 9" in height with 4.5" on either side of 0. The arrow drops approximately 5" at 40 YDS which would produce a 5 for score.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*@ 285 fps*

Same 35 YD setting at the 40 YD target at 285 fps. As you can see the score is now an 8 with a drop of approximately 4.5" vs. the 5" at 265 fps.


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## Kenro287 (Feb 12, 2014)

Tag good subject


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

The 2 plots together:


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## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

So it looks like at 285 you're good for an 8 anywhere between 27ish and 40ish? That's a good chunk to work with!


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

If you can hold a 1" diameter group at 40 yards, just the variance in arrows in your group still could put the 265 in and the 285 out of the 8. So would the 20 fps increase save you 3 points here, most people will never know.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

On average, you will see an improvement with the faster arrow....slight as it may be.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

As has been mentioned by two great shooters - the strategy and game that goes into being a high level competitive 3D shooter on the ASA or even IBO level is ridiculous.

It is night and day different than the local shoots where you are out having fun with buddies, betting a beer or lunch or what ever. Every shot, every yardage estimation (I never say guess, because it is NOT a guess) is thought out and the pros/cons of each strategy comes into play.

Someone earlier asked "well why wouldn't you just..." because its ever changing.

I shoot Open A - I don't shoot it as well as I should but it amazes me what I see. A 49 yard target, a coyote and within a few arrows the 12 ring is blocked....*** - its 49 stinking unknown yards.

You have to learn to shoot good at each level, then you have to learn to shoot great at each level - then you have to deal with everyone else shooting great and stategizing your way to the podium.


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

Kevin you are so right


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Garceau said:


> As has been mentioned by two great shooters - the strategy and game that goes into being a high level competitive 3D shooter on the ASA or even IBO level is ridiculous.
> 
> It is night and day different than the local shoots where you are out having fun with buddies, betting a beer or lunch or what ever. Every shot, every yardage estimation (I never say guess, because it is NOT a guess) is thought out and the pros/cons of each strategy comes into play.
> 
> ...



And there are guys that say indoor is harder lol!


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

Technically, the plots from AA that EPLC posted are slightly flawed. Does anyone see the reason?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Technically, the plots from AA that EPLC posted are slightly flawed. Does anyone see the reason?


Because they were generated by your competition's SW? I don't think we want to go down this road.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

ELPC,

Nah, that's not the reason.

The error in the AA plots, and the reason they are incorrect, is that they do not incorporate peep height. A shot does not start at an elevation of zero. It starts _below_ the line of sight by the amount of the peep height. 

For a peep height of 4.0" and a Sight Radius (peep to pin) of 32", a correct plot for 360gr arrow @ 285fps would look like this..


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> ELPC,
> 
> Nah, that's not the reason.
> 
> ...


I do not see the AA charts as incorrect as you put it. You set your zero at the peep and they set their zero at the arrow. It's all how you look at it. So, at 265 fps do you score an aproximately 5" low 5 and at 285 score an aproximately 4.5" low 8? I'm not sure how to read your numbers but I'm guessing your 0.4343 is the amount of drop at 40 yards, which if I look closely at the AA chart this is very close to the same number.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

IDK..if the start point of the trajectory is off, then all the points on the trajectory are skewed. The AA trajectory shows the 264fps arrow apex at a little less than 8" around 18yds and the 285fps arrow apex at a little more than 6" at 18yds. 

With OT2 taking into account the peep height and the fact the arrow starts out below the line of sight, the numbers are 264fps [email protected] and 285fps [email protected]

So a marked difference..


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

More like a 4.06" low liner 8 at 285 and 4.82" low 5 just out of the 8..


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Sounds like a low liner 8 and a 5 just like I posted. Like I originally stated, I don't think this is a healthy road to go down. This isn't a SW competition, it is about speed vs arrow drop, which it would seem both came up with the same conclusion.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

Yes. Close end result…without knowing the peep height and peep to pin you used, just a coincidence. The early parts of the trajectory not close.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

For this discussion, I think we're only concerned with the end results.
Both seem to indicate something close to a 1" difference.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Because they were generated by your competition's SW? I don't think we want to go down this road.


Like I said...


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Set your sight on 20 yards. Then step up and shoot that one yard shot. Now which graph is closer to being correct?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Again, we are not comparing software in this thread. The question was what the difference between a faster set up vs a slower set up.
Both programs have indicated similar results.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just a few years ago I was shooting a destroyer 350 at 345fps and it was freaking smoking fast and I was winning some local tournaments but there was this one shooter that kept beating me. He was a Asa semi pro shooter shooting a funny looking target bow lobbing arrows at the target really freaking slow. I got sick of losing to him and finally got him in my group and saw what a real shooter can do with a bow.

Back then if a target was between 30 and 40 yards I just split the pins and let her rip and I could be 6 yards off and still almost get a 12. Well now I shoot a fully decked out target bow and I lob in my arrows in the 290's and I am honing my 3d game and it is a really fun game to play but I see the importance of being within a hand full of the Asa speed limit of 299fps


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

JV NC said:


> For of this discussion (and, I'm not looking to get into a deep discussion!), let's assume that the shot execution is perfect on every shot.
> 
> Let's say my bow is shooting a 360gr. arrow at 264fps...........and I guessed 35yds (trying to make this as realistic as possible). The target is really 40yds., and I've aimed for the center 10 ring of a McKenzie Wild Boar.
> 
> ...


Justify your purchase? So you haven't shot either bow?


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I've shot both.....and own one of them. The other's on order.

Why do you ask?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

In hand bows have been known to perform different than expected.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> So you haven't shot either bow?


Was this even a question?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

JV NC said:


> Was this even a question?


Yes. I've ordered bows to exactly what I wanted and was disappointed in a couple.....


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## Jenmak (Mar 24, 2015)

Huntinsker said:


> So would someone check my math so I know if I'm way off. Math wasn't my best subject but I don't think I'm that bad.


In case you're still wondering, another big reason for the difference is because you're not accounting for drag in your math. For example, without drag a 35 yard shot would actually be 38.


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