# Fine tuning draw length help



## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok I hope this is the right forum. I'm pretty close to my exact draw length but need help fine tuning. I'm pretty sure I could stand to draw a bit more but not the next module position. What is the best way to go about lengthening my draw length just a bit and leave my shooting string the way it is? I'm shooting a 2005 Hoyt UltraMag. The reason I'm looking to fine tune my draw length is because my pin doesn't just float, it's jerky. I'm shooting at 20 yards at a 5 spot and I keep mostly keep my pin in the white but I drives me nuts that I can't slow down my pin. Sometimes I hold steady for a solid second and other times it's in and out. Any advice or help would be great. I might just post this in the coaches corner too? Thanks guys


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## NMP (Aug 6, 2003)

You can fine tune the dl on that bow by tweaking the cables somewhat but you may be able to kill 2 birds with one stone by simply turning the draw weight down. That will slightly lengthen the dl and make the bow a little more managable for longer periods of time. Im sure you know this but the more you try to hold rock steady the faster it will frustrate you.


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## Smiley1215 (May 10, 2013)

do a search for nuts n bolts fine tune draw length tuning. that may help it did me.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Ta2guru13 said:


> Ok I hope this is the right forum. I'm pretty close to my exact draw length but need help fine tuning. I'm pretty sure I could stand to draw a bit more but not the next module position. What is the best way to go about lengthening my draw length just a bit and leave my shooting string the way it is? I'm shooting a 2005 Hoyt UltraMag. The reason I'm looking to fine tune my draw length is because *my pin doesn't just float, it's jerky*. I'm shooting at 20 yards at a 5 spot and I keep mostly keep my pin in the white but I drives me nuts that I can't slow down my pin. Sometimes I hold steady for a solid second and *other times it's in and out*. Any advice or help would be great. I might just post this in the coaches corner too? Thanks guys


That in bold says something else is the problem. Most all people can shoot very well with a bow with short to too short a draw length.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

SonnyThomas said:


> That in bold says something else is the problem. Most all people can shoot very well with a bow with short to too short a draw length.


So you think I should get a little more draw length and see what happens?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Ta2guru13 said:


> So you think I should get a little more draw length and see what happens?


No. I think you best look elsewhere. You can't shoot your bow that has what you figure 1/4" too short of draw length you have other issues.

Give specs of your setup, draw weight, actual draw length. Can you post a full length picture of you at full draw?


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's the specs. 
-2005 Hoyt UltraMag
-60lb draw
-set on 28" mod position
I will do my best to get a picture posted this evening and put it on the draw board for an exact draw length measurement


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I don't know why its sideways but I cant figure out how to fix it.


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## NMP (Aug 6, 2003)

Drawlength is definately not too short.


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## NMP (Aug 6, 2003)

Take a good look at Levi in the banners at the top of the page and compare it to your pic. Pay special attention to the difference in arrow nock position on the face and your release hand.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

See, and I get that my hand is a little further back and my nock is a touch behind my eye, but my elbow and forearm are still in line with the arrow. I have ridiculously long arms for being 5'6. That and this is the shortest draw setting the bow can offer me. But, that being said, critique it. Let me know what you think. And btw, when I said short, I meant maybe a couple twists of a string or cable short, not by a module or so.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What I can see; Still, it's a picture and one can only see so much.
Draw length does not appear too short and if anything a bit long. If long, a bit of bow string twisting can shorten a bit.
Hand placement to riser grip not quite correct, perhaps too much hand and perhaps too low. Something there I can't quite make out - silver, near knuckle of thumb.

Another route; Peep and pin. What do you see? Pin or housing surrounded by light? If pin, the housing needs out of the sight picture altogether. My larger scope housings; Out of the sight picture and use stick on circle to mimic housing - space between peep opening and circle - center circle in peep to aid pin placement/center. Okay, circle may be off but always pin is the same to circle.

Just pictures for you to compare.... Not scopes, both adjusted to give what the shooter wants for a sight picture or clarity of sight picture.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I am going to hunt in the morning, but am going to try to let some arrows fly at paper mid-day. I will see if I can get my wrist a little higher and my hand a little more angles towards a 45* angle. You are right tho, I let the grip run all the way down the thick part of my hand under my thumb. I can work on that and see what happens


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## kgunz11 (Jul 29, 2011)

I had the exact same issue that you're experiencing. I took a 10 year break and upon coming back I realized I couldn't hold the bow as steady any more. At 40 yards it floated all over the 10 ring and I had jerky muscle tremors. I too have really lomg arms for my height. Technically I could shoot a 31" draw length. My hunting notes are all 29" so I set this 3D bow up the same. When I shot 10 years ago I shot a 28" draw. So I started experimenting. I tried 28.5" and it was significantly better. Shot that for a week then backed down to 28" and boom. I was there. Pin sticks like a magnet when I draw the bow. My theory is that I could not hold the bow adequately because my shoulder was doing most all of the driving. With a lot of bend in my arm it allows my forearm, bicep, and elbow to do the work. It magically fixed the issue for me. It won't hurt to go 1" shorter and just try it. You have nothing to lose in giving it a try.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

kgunz11 said:


> I had the exact same issue that you're experiencing. I took a 10 year break and upon coming back I realized I couldn't hold the bow as steady any more. At 40 yards it floated all over the 10 ring and I had jerky muscle tremors. I too have really lomg arms for my height. Technically I could shoot a 31" draw length. My hunting notes are all 29" so I set this 3D bow up the same. When I shot 10 years ago I shot a 28" draw. So I started experimenting. I tried 28.5" and it was significantly better. Shot that for a week then backed down to 28" and boom. I was there. Pin sticks like a magnet when I draw the bow. My theory is that I could not hold the bow adequately because my shoulder was doing most all of the driving. With a lot of bend in my arm it allows my forearm, bicep, and elbow to do the work. It magically fixed the issue for me. It won't hurt to go 1" shorter and just try it. You have nothing to lose in giving it a try.


I would try 27.5 if the bow could get that low. It can only go down to 28" How do I go about getting it a little shorter to try it out? Twist up the string? Play with the cables?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Grip and bow arm "strong" are two give more trouble than people think. The hand placement in the pictures, bow has no where to go, it's up or slipped up to where it just there.... The "strong" bow arm. Strong has to start somewhere and it's the shoulder. The ball has to set in the socket, so elbow pointing somewhat down, giving to shoulder low. Set just so, there is strength, drive to the target, but not forcing.

All in place, pin floating in the bull's eye, you begin back tension and for a bit all slows, so to speak. Even if the pin isn't dead center, the shot breaks and somehow the arrow finds center. Some one said it was human nature at work. The eyes sees, but the brain wants to know where that danged X is 

Aim small, miss small...So much BS. Pin size matters, especially on spots. The smaller the pin and the more movement you see. The larger the pin the less precieved movement you see. Less movement, more confidence.
Aim on a 3D target and what do you see the pin doing? Hardly anything. Why? Ain't no dang circle to stay within


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm shooting a .010" pin. Shot a buddy's .19" and felt solid as a rock...never made the connection! Looks like I've got a lot of work ahead of me this afternoon


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Grip and bow arm "strong" are two give more trouble than people think. The hand placement in the pictures, bow has no where to go, hand is up or slipped up to where it's just can't go higher in the grip....


Correction, just in case.


Say if your bow's draw length is a tad long, try giving the bow string 2 full twist and then 4 full twists. This will short a tad and lower draw weight a bit. Keep count of twists so you go back if this doesn't make a improvement. Okay, you have trial session. 
Other; 3 string like you have, this may work also, maintain draw weight. Figure 1 full untwist of each cable equal 4 full twists of the bow string. I wouldn't exceed 8 full twists of the bow string. Again, because the bow won't go lower on draw length. I've done it, but ain't the best thing to over twist the bow string. I never lost draw weight and maintained same arrow speed. Afterwards, and keeping the bow you can short string it, have a bow string built.


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## dukeofwails (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm going to follow this very closely. I'm having a similar issue. I'm shooting a Dream season evo and a dominator pro. 29.5" seems too short. 30" seems too long. I haven't been shooting much lately... but I really can't hold my pin steady *at all*. It's all over the 5 spot target at 20 yards. 

I'm not sure whether to set my bow at 29.5" and remove twists from my bowstring... or set it at 30" and add them. 
I'm sure my draw length has added to my inability to tune my dream season evo. I get a left tear more often than not unless I really "heel" my grip.

I really don't mean to hijack the thread... but I could use some help.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I went and shot last night. Worked on my bow hand, keep my bow shoulder low and started using my back tension properly again. I ended up shooting a 298 with 38x. Lots of room for improvement but I'm definitely starting to feel as tho it may be a tad long. My string builder ended up showing up and I had him look as well. He said it may be just a touch long but still shootable. I have a bow I traded coming in the mail Monday and it is adjustable down to 27" I believe and I am going to experiment with some shortened draw lengths. I'll keep you guys updated and get a new picture up as soon as I can


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok so this crappy weather we got (12"+ snow) has slowed my delivery of the bow down. Hell USPS doesn't even know where it is right now, but as soon as it gets here I will post shortened draw length pictures


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok. I got the Alien Z Friday after work. I set it all up that night and shot a few from about 12 feet. Took it to the range on Saturday and shot ok. I have reduced my draw length and lowered my poundage from my usual 60 to 54 pounds. Sunday it all came together! I haven't hit this many x's in my life! I shot tonight just for practice but kept score for a little bit. After 6 rounds I only had three 5's with all the rest being x's. I will try to get a picture posted in the next day or so at full draw and see what you guys think of my new draw length and setup.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sounds like you're on the right track.... Congrats


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

New draw length and bow


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Picture little dark and off center, angled...Needs to be like your first, more frontal. What I can see;
1 - Bow hand looks decent, but giving a mid grip look. Picture too dark. Can you feel even pressure from the web of your hand all the way off the heal of your hand? 
2 - Draw elbow...appears correct.
3 - Stance, good.
4 - Can't see anchor area.
5 - Still, bow arm appears...stretched out? Back to the bow hand - do you feel or sense hand pushing/tilting as to maintain draw length?

Overall maybe better, but still a bit long....General target impact, left , right ?


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

My hand is at a 45* angle with the bow. Grip sits in the web til about halfway down the meaty part of my thumb. Misses? Almost none. My misses have been high or low...none left and right. I was uncomfortable at first going shorter but I can guarantee I'm not going any shorter. As far as my bow arm is concerned I lock it fully extended before I draw. It's not stretche out at all... Just relaxed and locked in place


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay. Like I said, your picture isn't the best. I am not of the locked bow arm type. What works for you, works for you. So keep with it. And using that short ata bow puts you in the plus column. Enjoy....


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

SonnyThomas said:


> Picture little dark and off center, angled...Needs to be like your first, more frontal. What I can see;
> 1 - Bow hand looks decent, but giving a mid grip look. Picture too dark. Can you feel even pressure from the web of your hand all the way off the heal of your hand?
> 2 - Draw elbow...appears correct.
> 3 - Stance, good.
> ...


Sonny has hit all the pertinent points anyone could from a photo and thread. I'd add only one other point. When you are making such small changes to your draw length, it will take some time to determine whether you've arrived at the sweet spot. Keep a log and score all targets, include how crisply the release fired, how the pin held. It's easy to stop the process too soon once you see some improvement. I'd even recommend going a bit past the right draw length so you will learn to recognize how that feels/shoots. Remember, at some point you'll have to put on a new string and start all over again. Beside shooting for score, get some blank bale time up close and shoot with your eyes closed. You may be surprised how well you can feel a difference when you are not concentrating on a dot or X. 

From my experience, proper draw length is the single greatest factor in getting your shooting form to it's highest level. It is time consuming, and how I hate to have to adjust my peep sight over and over, but it will be worth your time.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Well I went ahead and ordered the new string and cable. Had a very rough night of shooting with it the other day so I just sat it on the wall for the moment and pulled out another. Strings should be here this weekend and like you said I can start the entire process all over again :/ here's a question for you guys tho ... The adjustable draw stop on my cam. They only ever have +/- marks never a set center point. How do I determine where the draw stop should be to get the draw length that the module should be providing? I know I can bump +/- to adjust holding weight and I know it'll change my draw length just slightly with changes, but is there a way to figure out stop placement? Or is it a personal thing based off of feel, etc?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

If of the Alien Z, draw length changes require setting the draw stop each time. Hybrix and all it's still a Martin Catcam. Just follow procedure in the manual. You can down load one if you don't have. Basically, the cables lay flat in the draw module and you set the draw stop. Said is to back off 1/32" or so to allow for the rubber cap. I don't do this, so it's up to you. Placement of draw stop at this point gives max let off. As you know, moving it towards the limb lessens both let off and draw length to some degree. I never worried about high letoff, but most claim 60/65% is best for spots. I guess the more holding weight makes you stay on the wall and the wall is where your best accuracy comes from. Just figure being off the wall just a hair and what it would do when executing the shot. Creeping comes into this, but positive stop bows are a little different.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

this is how I have set the bow up after putting on the new string and cable. Feels pretty good so far but ive only been able to shoot about 30 arrows at20 yards so far. What do you think?


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Sorry about the sideways picture. It shows me the picture being straight but ehen I post it's turned


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

From the photo (and it difficult to be precise here) it looks just a bit long. But for final DL tuning, go by how small and slow your pin floats. We are talking about very small changes to the DL that won't be apparent in a photo. If you are getting your most steady float as it is in the photo, then that is _your_ best DL. Keep in mind, if you make changes to your form, and form is important, you may find your DL changes. Get your form as best as you can, then tune your DL for the slowest, smallest float.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok so I'm experimenting with a shorter draw length. I think I've gotten it as low as about 26 inches. But, when I get that short I feel my bow arm starting to get tired and almost sore in my tricep area? I just realized i feel more comfortable at a slightly longer draw length but that 26" is about where the string lands at a good spot for my draw. My question is, can't I just add a longer loop to make my body think I'm still shooting the longer draw length and be more comfortable? If so, and I will experiment with this, how long is too long for a loop? Can I make the loop an inch or more or is that excessive?


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

Ta2guru13 said:


> Ok so I'm experimenting with a shorter draw length. I think I've gotten it as low as about 26 inches. But, when I get that short I feel my bow arm starting to get tired and almost sore in my tricep area? I just realized i feel more comfortable at a slightly longer draw length but that 26" is about where the string lands at a good spot for my draw. My question is, can't I just add a longer loop to make my body think I'm still shooting the longer draw length and be more comfortable? If so, and I will experiment with this, how long is too long for a loop? Can I make the loop an inch or more or is that excessive?


Your bow arm should be fully extended, or just short of fully extended. This shouldn't be confused with hyper extended or locked out. It's a very small difference, but important. If you have a bend in your bow arm it means your are relying much more on arm muscles to hold the bow steady. It can certainly be done, there are many high level archers who feel more comfortable with the bow arm slightly bent. It's a decision you'll have to make. 

Draw length is the distance from the deepest part of the grip to where the nock point lays on on your face. The string should touch your nose and mouth. Everyone is built a bit different, but the critical point is it shouldn't be so deep in your face that the peep sight does not fall into line with your eye and sight without either tilting your head back or forward more than a small amount. Once you get to this point, you are ready to adjust D-Loop length. D-Loop length does not extend or have anything to do with draw length. It only affects where your release hand settles into an anchor point, that is where your release hand touches your face. For many shooters it is between index and middle finger knuckles and the corner of your jaw. Also for most I've seen, it's rare to have a D-Loop deeper than 3/4". Much more than that and your release hand is no longer touching your jaw - no anchor point.

With the coarse DL set (determined by cam size or module setting) and the D-Loop set, _now_ begin fine tuning DL. This is by twists of the string. When you get the least movement in your pin float, stop. As you make small changes to form, periodically revisit it. It can be an evolutionary process - not fixed forever.

I should add that if you are either beginning, or just not terribly consistent; you may have difficultly fine tuning your draw length because there are more basic form factors effecting you shots. Fine tuning draw length does require a certain level of skill such that changes from one twist of the string can be felt or seen.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I've been shooting regularly for a few years. Usually shoot 297-300 with 40+ X on 5 spot and last night shot 288 with 16 X on a Vegas target. Just trying to fine tune now. And thank you for the advice. I'll see what applies and try them out


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

One of the finest target shooters I know. One time NFAA Senior Triple Crown Champion and still holding his own. Look on that wall.

As Praeger noted, everyone is different.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'd say, in yout first pic, your draw length is easily an inch long. one other thing is to open your stance a bit, that fully closed stance promotes a long draw length and a lack of tension across the back of your shoulders. you will also be able to hold your head more erect and "look" at the target better. your second pic looks a bit better, maybe just a bit too long yet.....you're still leaning back some. but you notice how the shorter length opened up your stance a bit and your face is more directly pointed ahead, looking at the target.
in your second pic, you grip hand looks better, but still to much base of your hand is on the grip. a line through your large knuckles should extend down and away from the riser at about a 40 to 45 degree angle, so that only the pad of your thumb is on the front of the grip. place two fingers in the very middle of your grip hand's thumb pad and press into your pad and relax your grip hand..... that is what your grip, at full draw, should feel like.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron_w, I can't copy Dave Cousin's hand picture. My bow hand is a wreck, but....

Ta2, my hand was cut half though, the red lines. My wrist bone joint for my thumb is artificial, scar tissues and gel. My thumb sets back what looks like 1/2" more than my right thumb. Still, I do pretty good with it.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

I shot my best Vegas score tonight. 292 with 16x. I fiddled with my draw length a little before I kept score and it seems like I'm an odd ball... The draw length I shoot best with is a touch long compared to the "perfect" draw length. Now it's time to work on my release lol. Back tension works good for me but I have to think too much about getting the release off that it bugs me. Oh, Ron w, I remembered to widen my stance about halfway through my scoring rounds and it definitely helped. Thanks to everyone for your input and advice so far


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Ta2guru13, 
there is some confusion in your understanding of "perfect draw length" compared to what you're telling us...... you're "perfect draw length" is the draw length you shoot best with. 
if you are referring to your "perfect draw length", as being that derived from the "wingspan/2.5" equation, .....that is not your "perfect draw length...it is only a close starting point from which you find your perfect draw length by adjusting from there, until you are shooting your best groups and/or scores. there's a little more to it than that, but for simplicities sake and the length of this reply, let's just go with that description.
there are a few cases where that equation will result in a derived draw length that is "perfect" for someone, but the odds are slim, as very few people are "anthropometrically balanced"... where their wingspan is exactly the same as their height. 
ironically, I happen to be one of those people, but I know of no others. my wing span is 69" which converts,... by the equation...., to 27.6" I am exactly 5"-9" tall and my "perfect draw length" is right at 27-9/16", so just a tad short of the equation's answer. after much experimentation and adjustments, which is what it takes to find your "perfect draw length", I settled on a touch short because my release execution works best there.
so, in ending, that derived draw length is just a good starting point and is in no way, perfect, other than a very few people.


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## Ta2guru13 (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok so I got spiral cams for my 05 ultramag. Twisted up cables and got the measurements and sent them off to get built. Got the new set on two nights ago and actually got to shoot it last night. Wow spirals are different, but I like them. I will do my best to post s picture tonight if the draw length I achieved. By the way this was my first Frankenbow project so I am very happy but want to see what you guys think of the draw length


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