# Fast bows for Field shooting



## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 179 

FPS. speed for Field shooting 

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I like speed at around 250 FPS for Field shooting. Some like it a lot faster
at 280 FPS, and still some like the speed at 235 FPS. Over the past few years since this speed thing has hit the market I have done a lot of expermenting
and have found that the speeds of the compound bow at around 250 FPS produces a much more consistance average at around 550 score for a field round. This is for Field shooting and Not 3D shooting where the 280 FPS is better, If a person would use the correct spined arrow he would find that speed of around 250 FPS would produce better scores than high speeds for field shooting since it is marked yards. What have some of you Field shooters found out on this subject?


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## OA3D (Feb 26, 2007)

Speed kills...conversations with me

I can't shoot fast. I am very happy to be getting 260fps.
I have not shot fields yet, but a lot of 3D. Knowing yardage makes, IMO and from what I've read is, no longer as important. In 3D if you are good at yardage estimation you don't need speed there either, it's just a crutch to fall on it your guess is off(again IMHO).

My concern going into this is shooting over 60 yds. I never have but know I need to. Am I gonna hit my sight?


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

I don' shoot any where near 280 fps and have no trouble with contact out to 80 yds. Actually shooting about 245 fps.


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## Field Shooter (Nov 2, 2005)

*field shooting FPS*

I too shoot at near 248 FPS and I have also found that this speed produces the best scores for a Field round for me. I have went up near the 270 fps speed and my scores droped quite a bit down to around 525. also at 235 Fps I have shot some scores near the 550 ranges but have never done this with a fast bow. But I can usually shoot close to the 550 mark at 248 FPS, and for me this is where I have my best shooting at .


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

I don't know anybody shooting 550 and up that's shooting 250 fps. They're all shooting 280 +.
If you have a slow bow and attempt to get to 280 I can see why it wouldn't be consistent but get a fast bow (Mathews or BT) that still has the speed with 100-120gr points and good spine and you'll be way ahead.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

Darn.......I have it all wrong......I need to get a Mathews or BT that shoots 280 to be good......:doh: forgot the :jksign:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Bob_Looney said:


> I don't know anybody shooting 550 and up that's shooting 250 fps. They're all shooting 280 +.
> If you have a slow bow and attempt to get to 280 I can see why it wouldn't be consistent but get a fast bow (Mathews or BT) that still has the speed with 100-120gr points and good spine and you'll be way ahead.


But Bob if they are shooting 280+ are they in violation of the speed limit?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bob_Looney said:


> I don't know anybody shooting 550 and up that's shooting 250 fps. They're all shooting 280 +.
> If you have a slow bow and attempt to get to 280 I can see why it wouldn't be consistent but get a fast bow (Mathews or BT) that still has the speed with 100-120gr points and good spine and you'll be way ahead.


Exactly...you still have to shoot the proper arrow setup with the correct bow. You can't set up a bow like you might for 3D with some ultra light points and no FOC.

I started shooting in the 270-285 range this year and saw an improvement from shooting in the 250-260 range. However I was still shooting the same bow and was not TRYING to get speed. I bought some McKinney II's which just happen to be a very light shaft but they are a very high end shaft. The end result just happend to be that I was shooting over 270 fps:wink: It is much easier to shoot these arrows for field with success then it was to shoot a shaft setup for 3D that was light and got speed.


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## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

OA3D said:


> Speed kills...conversations with me
> 
> I can't shoot fast. I am very happy to be getting 260fps.
> I have not shot fields yet, but a lot of 3D. Knowing yardage makes, IMO and from what I've read is, no longer as important. In 3D if you are good at yardage estimation you don't need speed there either, it's just a crutch to fall on it your guess is off(again IMHO).
> ...


I don't worry about my speed either and never did. If you will drop you peep a little bit it will gain you some extra yards.

You only have 2 shots at 80 on a 28 target field round so don't sweat it that much. And 2 at 70yds. So if you can make it to 65yds you can make it to 70 and 80.:wink: AC


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

swerve said:


> But Bob if they are shooting 280+ are they in violation of the speed limit?


No...the speed limit is 280fps with that little variance which allows you to shoot 288 fps.:wink:


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## Field Shooter (Nov 2, 2005)

Bob_Looney said:


> I don't know anybody shooting 550 and up that's shooting 250 fps. They're all shooting 280 +.
> If you have a slow bow and attempt to get to 280 I can see why it wouldn't be consistent but get a fast bow (Mathews or BT) that still has the speed with 100-120gr points and good spine and you'll be way ahead.


Bob Looney So you are saying that you shoot 280 FPS with scores of 550.
With high speed bows, I have never been able to do it, But with 250 FPS I have
shot that several times this past year. This is on the Field Round. In the Senior Pro Division there is a few of us that can still shoot a 550 once in a while. But what I was wondering if the most of the scores of 550 are shot with 280 FPS or with slower bows, Myself I think it can be done with bows that shoot around 250 FPS, and I have also seen archers shoot 550 with a fast bows but not as often. Back in the 90,s we were doing it with wheel bows that shot 230 FPS.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

If you shoot over 80 pounds peak weight and/or you are shooting over 280 fps, You ARE NOT LEGAL for NFAA "official" competition!

That could change in the future, but right now there IS a poundage restriction AND the 280 fps SPEED restriction...AND....a tournament chair or official CAN remove you from the course or range for "skying the bow" in order to draw the bow back! (safety).

There is NOT a size restriction on arrow diameter in the NFAA/WAF.

In NAA/FITA..the POUNDAGE is restricted to SIXTY POUNDS max peak weight, and it IS ENFORCED TO THE LETTER!
Also in FITA and NAA...there is a SIZE RESTRICTION on arrow diameter...the 2315 is the LARGEST ARROW DIAMETER that is "legal" for NAA.
field14:tongue::wink:


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

A good heavy arrow (350gr or so), shooting 285 fps out of a 59# bow will raise your scores over a 250 fps bow unless you're shooting indoors.
Less wind drift, smaller cuts for up/down hill, less time in the air.


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Field Shooter said:


> Bob Looney So you are saying that you shoot 280 FPS with scores of 550.
> With high speed bows, I have never been able to do it, But with 250 FPS I have
> shot that several times this past year. This is on the Field Round. In the Senior Pro Division there is a few of us that can still shoot a 550 once in a while. But what I was wondering if the most of the scores of 550 are shot with 280 FPS or with slower bows, Myself I think it can be done with bows that shoot around 250 FPS, and I have also seen archers shoot 550 with a fast bows but not as often. Back in the 90,s we were doing it with wheel bows that shot 230 FPS.


No, I said I don't know anybody that is shooting 550+ that is shooting a slow bow.
allan Ruddock, 280 mathews
Cabe Johnson, 280 Mathews
Greg Poole, 280 Mathews
Keith Swanson, 280 Bowtech

and while I don't know them personally I have heard from friends that do know them... the top FITA guys are shooting 280+ as well.

I'm not saying it can't be done but there is an advantage to 280+fps over 250fps on a field round.

speed is your friend outdoors.

ps; no I'm not shooting 550's. I shot some clean halves in practice but stunk it up when it counted.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bob_Looney said:


> No, I said I don't know anybody that is shooting 550+ that is shooting a slow bow.
> allan Ruddock, 280 mathews
> Cabe Johnson, 280 Mathews
> Greg Poole, 280 Mathews
> ...


Again, folks...do NOT BE MISLEAD HERE>>>>

MAX PEAK WEIGHT for FITA LEGAL is SIXTY, that is SIX ZERO, or 60 POUNDS MAXIMUM! In addtion, FITA Shooters tend to shoot HEAVY POINTS in their arrows, X-10's are NOT LIGHT....so I'm questioning the 280+ speeds out of SHORT DRAW PEOPLE using a MAX bow weight of 60 pounds....Roger HOYLE holds the FITA WORLD RECORD for the ROUND of 1414...it was shot several years back...at a speed WELL BELOW 280, and his poundage was also BELOW the 60# peak limit!

MAX SPEED for LEGAL NFAA COMPETITION: 280 MAX fps
MAX POUNDAGE for LEGAL NFAA Competition: 80 pounds.

NOW...I will GUARANTEE YOU...that the MAJORITY of the TOP TEN at the Darrington shoot this year were NOT shooting 280 fps....and I would bet that the MAJORITY of the scores by far were NOT shooting 280 either!

If you have people in your area shooting above 280 for competition in NFAA...then their scores don't mean SQUAT...they are NOT LEGAL.

This Baloney of 280 NEEDED to shoot 550+ is that...pure BUNK and pure BALONEY....more HYPE than anything else.

In addition...the SCORES are NOT signifigantly HIGHER by 10 points or more NOW than they were 10 years ago....more HYPE and BUNK.

SPEED is NOT the answer...especially if the SHOOTER cannot control it or themselves.

BY FAR....here in the Midwest...I know of NOBODY shooting 540 on up that is shooting 280....MOST are shooting in the low to mid 50 pounds peak range...and shooting 100 grain points...and running from 245 to around 265 fps....and there are PLENTY OUT HERE shooting ABOVE 550 on a routine basis...

Again, just a reminder....under the CURRENT rules of the NFAA...280 is PUSHING THE LIMIT to the max....since ABOVE 280 FPS is ILLEGAL...and would result in a DQ if caught AFTER the shoot, and if known BEFORE the shoot, the shooter would be required to LOWER THE SPEED to the LEGAL limit before going onto the range..thus "killing" any chance of an exceptionally high score for the person that day...cuz he could kiss his site marks good-bye.

field14


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## st2212 (Dec 14, 2006)

I just looked on the NFAA web site about the speed limit. The 80# is right, but the speed is 280 fps with a 3% varince. That makes it 288 fps.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

st2212 said:


> I just looked on the NFAA web site about the speed limit. The 80# is right, but the speed is 280 fps with a 3% varince. That makes it 288 fps.


 Yep and if you set your bow up with the expectation of 288 you'll be in for a surprise on a warm day when they pull the chrony out...:wink: You best learn to hit your arm on command or carry a chrony arrow and hope they don't pick your arrow for you...:tongue:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Yep and if you set your bow up with the expectation of 288 you'll be in for a surprise on a warm day when they pull the chrony out...:wink: You best learn to hit your arm on command or carry a chrony arrow and hope they don't pick your arrow for you...:tongue:


Oh, the NFAA has this trick covered too....something about, and I will NOT look it up and quote it either....

"All arrows will be the SAME weight, fletch, etc...with allowances for wear and tear. So, if you are carrying a "Chronie arrow" and Believe me, the "judges" KNOW ABOUT THIS STUPID TRICK...you aren't fooling anyone! It had better be the SAME LENGTH, the SAME WEIGHT, and the SAME FLETCH color...with some allowance for wear and tear.

We had a BHFS'er pull this type of stunt at a STATE tournament....he had four "sets" of arrows in his quiver...all fletched the same, etc. Well, he was notorious for pulling "things" ....like lagging back behind between targets...and was SEEN cranking his poundages on courses he knew....he "moved his peep site" around between targets, etc.

Well....evidently, he made a "mistake" on a long target and shot an arrow out of the "wrong slot" of his quiver...and it went well away from the "group" of his arrows. That was a "clue" to the others....IMMEDIATE.

So, when the round was done, one of the shooters went to the director, told him of his "suspicions" and filed the protest. The shooter in question was called in (he was close by) and they asked to see this guys arrows...he hesitated, then picked one and handed it to them. They said NO...we want to see the entire quiver of arrows....that got him REAL nervous....So, they weighed ALL of the arrows in the quiver...and found...that each "batch" of four arrows...WEIGHED DIFFERENTLY, by as much as 50 grains!

DQ'd on the spot!

So, don't play games with a special "CHRONNIE ARROW" and don't be for teaching people this....SHOOT BY THE RULES! 280 doesn't mean 288...cuz on that HOT DAY or whatever, the CHRONNIE IN USE is the ONLY ONE they will go by...and you just never know when you get a "fast Chronnie"...set the frickin' bow to 280 if you choose...but don't PUSH IT!! 

field14


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

All I know is that if you are a pro shooter for Hoyt, using properly spined X-10's, a 29" draw, 60# etc.. using either a ProElite or an UltraElite...you are going to play hell getting over 270 out of it. Ditto for the Mathews Apex and a Martin S-4... that pretty much covers the entire leader board at outdoor nationals this year. Several of those shooters shoot less than 29" draws so it's even more unlikely they were hitting 280.

Jamie VanNatta and Erica Anschutz certainly aren't getting past 260 either and they were both shooting in the 550's.

I really think if you polled the top Field and Fita outdoor shooters you will not see a majority over 270.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Field Speed*

Dave Cousins, Jimmie Butts, and Doug Williams are consistant 550+ shooters and are considered to be in the top 10 of all current Field shooters at the very least and probably all would be in the top 6. None of them shoot less than 260 fps and most are shooting around 270. Now these guys are pros and not to be confused with the average shooters. Some might say that "yea, the better Pro's can handle those speeds because their form and consistancy is better". There is probably something to that but I think that speed helps in field archery stopping short of whatever point that you personally see accuracy and consistancy begin to degrade over the course of a round. At my level, I can tell you that 260 is better than 225. 280 is a pipe dream at my short draw because I don't want to shoot any bow or poundage that would make that possible. Just like Darrin described above, speed makes the cuts less critical to a less than stellar release, less critical to mis-marked targets (most courses seem to have one or two), and less critical to occasional lapses in follow through. The resulting faster lock time makes it a little harder to screw up the shot before it clears the bow.
That's just one of the small reasons that Jamie is a world beater. She comfortably shoots 60 pounds and very few of the other women can handle that kind of draw weight.
Jbird


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I would be really curious to know how Jimmy gets beyond 260 considering his draw and the bow that he shoots.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Don't Know*

Shot with him and George last year at the Glen and he was shooting a P3 with Fury cams and told me he was shooting 270. He was shooting X-10s. Jimmie, George, Dougie, and Dave all shoot X-10's for Field.
Jbird


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Bob Gentry is shooting a Mathews at 275 with fingers and less than 27" draw length. I watched him shoot 1/2 doz. arrows thru the cronnie. He won the Nationals, again.
I watched Ruddock shoot 280 thru two different cronnies and he's drawing 28 1/2".
Both bows were less than 60#

Keith Swanson and Matt Anderson both told me they had to turn their Bowtechs down to below 60# because they were shooting over 290.

You can believe nobody is getting 280 out of their bows but you're fooling yourself. The 4 examples above include 3 National champs, not chumps trying to hot dog their bows.


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## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

*Speed is not everything*

I must say that although speed helps a little, I feel like the small diameter and heavier arrows such as the X10 Protours help more than the speed. I averaged 555 for field this year shooting 362 gr. Protours at 264 fps. Now that is not fast in most peoples minds, but, with the Protours, my sight gap from 20 to 80 yards was just about identical to the 3-39 acc's that I was shooting at around 275 fps last year. The Protours do not seem to drop off at long range like the bigger lighter shafts do, even at the same speed.

With a shorter sight tape you don't feel like you have to lower your anchor as much at longer yardage. It is more comfortable shooting the longer yardages and generally ends up aiding in better grouping along with better aiming. Don't get me wrong, Speed does help to a certain extent, but is not the most determining factor in scoring well, even on a field course.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Thanks,
Kendall


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Wow!*

555 field average. That is fantastic. Can you actually still breathe up there in that thin air?? LOL. Great shooting. I doubt there are 10 shooters in the US that average 555.
Jbird


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Speed is an advantage in field archery. Faster bows require you to take less distance off your sight on angled targets. 
However like everything else in archery you must compromise and come up with the best all round solution for you. 

It is a simple equation. 2 arrows of the same weight with one doing 280fps and one doing 250fps. The faster one will drift less and need less taken off the sight on angles. However if you can not get that speed don't fret, you still have to hit the target anyway. 

BTW we have a FITA shooter in Australia named Pat Coghlan who is our current National Champ and he easily gets over 270fps with X10's and a ProElite XT3000. 30" draw length helps ALOT.


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## James Thurman (Feb 3, 2004)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> I must say that although speed helps a little, I feel like the small diameter and heavier arrows such as the X10 Protours help more than the speed. I averaged 555 for field this year shooting 362 gr. Protours at 264 fps. Now that is not fast in most peoples minds, but, with the Protours, my sight gap from 20 to 80 yards was just about identical to the 3-39 acc's that I was shooting at around 275 fps last year. The Protours do not seem to drop off at long range like the bigger lighter shafts do, even at the same speed.
> 
> With a shorter sight tape you don't feel like you have to lower your anchor as much at longer yardage. It is more comfortable shooting the longer yardages and generally ends up aiding in better grouping along with better aiming. Don't get me wrong, Speed does help to a certain extent, but is not the most determining factor in scoring well, even on a field course.
> 
> ...



Ha Kendall where have you been I have not heard from you in several months
I have made it up in VA. only a couple of times this year, Hope to see you indoors this year, I see you are still shooting in the high 550,s


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## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

Hey James, it's good to hear from you. I shot maybe 10-12 pin shoots this year along with a couple of states and the Mid-Atlantic Sectional. I had a pretty good year. Actually I was more consistent than I have every been with a slightly higher average. I think the change I made at the beginning of the year is working out for the better. Much better. You should try to make it up to the State Indoor shoots coming up in a few months. We would love to have you.
Later,
Kendall


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## XQuest (May 5, 2003)

*I can share this with all of you*

At this year's Natl's I shot a 550 and 551 round in the middle of the week and this was with a Hoyt Pro-Elite 48#'s 29" draw and A/C/E 570's which I find to be the lightest arrow for spine it creates.Arrow weight with 80 gr points was around 274grains.........speed 277fps.
In past years I have had some 550's at around 265fps but I do think the 275 280 speeds are better on the long yardage guesses up hill and down.Anyway I'll show up next year in the Master Senior shooting high 270's.......I don't mess with maximum......don't need the fear when competing.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

XQuest said:


> At this year's Natl's I shot a 550 and 551 round in the middle of the week and this was with a Hoyt Pro-Elite 48#'s 29" draw and A/C/E 570's which I find to be the lightest arrow for spine it creates.Arrow weight with 80 gr points was around 274grains.........speed 277fps.
> In past years I have had some 550's at around 265fps but I do think the 275 280 speeds are better on the long yardage guesses up hill and down.Anyway I'll show up next year in the Master Senior shooting high 270's.......I don't mess with maximum......don't need the fear when competing.


Dean,
You are among the best field shooters to ever grace a field course. You have more silver bowls than anyone ever! When Mr. Dean Pridgen speaks "field shooterese," it should get your ATTENTION for sure.

Just for comparision sake, could you perhaps give us all some comparisions from the 1980's and 1990's with regard to how your setups have changed, along with your BOW SPEEDS? One thing I'm sure will come of this is that you probably had the speed up at the "top of the times"....

I know that you were shooting a Golden Eagle for a time in the mid-1980's and I saw you shoot a 557 and a 555 at Waverly, Iowa; in fact you made one of my arrows "MEAT" on a 50 yard downhill, hahahah.

But...you shot those and many, many other mid 550 scores over all these years...but at what speeds, if you can recall. Also, what arrow sizes, since back then carbon arrows were a dream and not a reality?

It would just be so nice to hear it from the perspective on one that has shot those kinds of scores thru at least 3 decades...and grown with the sport.

I think the 'history' lesson would help bring the speed thing to a new level of understanding.

Thanks,
field14 (Tom D.)


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

AKDoug said:


> All I know is that if you are a pro shooter for Hoyt, using properly spined X-10's, a 29" draw, 60# etc.. using either a ProElite or an UltraElite...you are going to play hell getting over 270 out of it. Ditto for the Mathews Apex and a Martin S-4... that pretty much covers the entire leader board at outdoor nationals this year. Several of those shooters shoot less than 29" draws so it's even more unlikely they were hitting 280.
> 
> Jamie VanNatta and Erica Anschutz certainly aren't getting past 260 either and they were both shooting in the 550's.
> 
> I really think if you polled the top Field and Fita outdoor shooters you will not see a majority over 270.


Not sure about Erika but Jamie was shooting over 260. When we shoot FITA Field, where there is only a 60# limit but no speed limit she shoots over 275.

Jamie is shooting 28.75" draw @ 59# with an ultra elite. Which is apparently impossible to shoot over 270


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Shot with him and George last year at the Glen and he was shooting a P3 with Fury cams and told me he was shooting 270. He was shooting X-10s. Jimmie, George, Dougie, and Dave all shoot X-10's for Field.
> Jbird


I think Dougie will pull out the ACEs from time to time as well


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## XQuest (May 5, 2003)

*To late tonight*



field14 said:


> Dean,
> You are among the best field shooters to ever grace a field course. You have more silver bowls than anyone ever! When Mr. Dean Pridgen speaks "field shooterese," it should get your ATTENTION for sure.
> 
> Just for comparision sake, could you perhaps give us all some comparisions from the 1980's and 1990's with regard to how your setups have changed, along with your BOW SPEEDS? One thing I'm sure will come of this is that you probably had the speed up at the "top of the times"....
> ...


but I'll try to answer tomorrow on this forum.


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## XQuest (May 5, 2003)

*In days past*



field14 said:


> Dean,
> You are among the best field shooters to ever grace a field course. You have more silver bowls than anyone ever! When Mr. Dean Pridgen speaks "field shooterese," it should get your ATTENTION for sure.
> 
> Just for comparision sake, could you perhaps give us all some comparisions from the 1980's and 1990's with regard to how your setups have changed, along with your BOW SPEEDS? One thing I'm sure will come of this is that you probably had the speed up at the "top of the times"....
> ...


In the early '70's speeds were around 220fps if that.We were shooting 1914 X-7's and 1814 X-7's mostly.Bows were 4 wheeler bows but accurate for that time.I always shot 1914's and 50#'s 29"draw throughout my career with a few variations.Later on in late 70's with the two wheeler scores came up some,still same arrows but carbon just around the corner.In 1975 at Jay,VT the last day we shot the idenity round 14 targets(scored same as today's field) instead of an animal and I shot a 275 as I recall.That was with a 4 wheeler Arrowstar and 1914 X-7's.
As two wheelers came out scores came up a little but arrows didn't change yet.The two wheelers were easier to tune and shot a little better also.Most of us were in the 220 230 fps bracket.
As I remember AFC was the first carbon arrow out.It was a bit heavy but shot well.Beman came out next and was fast and light but extremly fragile and we broke them,shot the spine out of them and had to twist them often to see if they were cracked.Speeds came up to the 260fps bracket then.Of course scores came up too but I credit that to the competitive bar being raised by the shooters more than equipment.
Speed wasn't much of an issue until 3-D came along and made it necessary.
Speed does play a role in field shooting,providing you have correct spined arrows,less time in air for wind drift and flatter trajectory for cuts etc.
Do you have to shoot 280? No Do you have to shoot 260? No 
For the last 15 years I've shot 260fps or better outdoors and never over 50#'s peak weight.Don't crowd the NFAA limit because a little string stretch and you're speeding,you don't need that thought in your mind when competing.
In closing on this I think I could take a 40# bow with 670 A/C/E's and shoot as good a score as a 50# bow with 570 A/C/E's and the speeds of both these bows are 260+.

Feel free to ask questions if you like.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

An extremely well written post, Dean! Probably one of the most memorable and informative posts I've seen in quite some time!

SPINE, SPEED...you've covered things so well and covered FOUR DECADES about field shooting.

I remember those AFC arrows and the early carbons too...great when they were NEW...but no warning when they decided to "crumple" or "give out"...you just missed wide...or the entire bale right out of nowhere, ha!

Thanks for taking the time to reply so informatively. 

Folks, ask the questions....When Dean Pridgen talks "Field shooting", people should LISTEN!

field14


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Dean*

Besides the advantage of bucking the wind and giving you a deeper window on cut tolerances do you think that the faster lock time of a faster bow may be some of the reason for the higher scores at 270?
Thanks,
Jbird


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## nzo (Jul 19, 2006)

i believe that it has nothing to do with how fast your bow is. i think it is the archer and i have seen some archers change bows so many times from slow to fast and back to slow. long ata and short and they still shoot about the same score. if unmarked i think it makes a difference just from being able have a little bit more margin for error in guessing. 
only my 2 cents worth but hey.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

> In closing on this I think I could take a 40# bow with 670 A/C/E's and shoot as good a score as a 50# bow with 570 A/C/E's and the speeds of both these bows are 260+.



I think that is one of the most astute observations I have read on the topic.


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## frydaddy40 (Oct 17, 2007)

*Don't have be a M bow or B bow to shot fast*



Bob_Looney said:


> No, I said I don't know anybody that is shooting 550+ that is shooting a slow bow.
> allan Ruddock, 280 mathews
> Cabe Johnson, 280 Mathews
> Greg Poole, 280 Mathews
> ...


 Bother it don't have be mathews or a bowtech to shot 280-288 fps. I shot Forge f2 41" ata 26.5 draw 54pounds at 285 fps. my arrows have a f.o.c. of 10 % Arrow weight 323.5 and had no problem reaching the 100 yard shot at the last asa proam i attended. You just have to set them up right.:wink:


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## frydaddy40 (Oct 17, 2007)

*Sorry*

 Sorry guys not alot of feild in Georgia ether. Maybe somehow that pobblem can be changed. I love it.


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## XQuest (May 5, 2003)

*Lock time*



Jbird said:


> Besides the advantage of bucking the wind and giving you a deeper window on cut tolerances do you think that the faster lock time of a faster bow may be some of the reason for the higher scores at 270?
> Thanks,
> Jbird


By lock time I assume you mean the time of release to the time of the nock leaving the string.....right?
That being the case I will go on record of saying "of course" there is a positive difference but I also think it would be so minimal that one couldn't calcuate a point assessment plus or minus to that factor.IMHO


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Yep*

That's what I meant by lock time. I was just wondering what your take on it was after hearing a couple of other Pro's mention it.
Jbird


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## frydaddy40 (Oct 17, 2007)

*fast bow for feild*

 I think someone has aready said, that you sould stay with one speed and not change from very fast to very slow. Your mind and body gets us to one speed and little changes some times make a big difference.


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

lock time has been hashed and rehashed for 25 years that I know of. Especially the set trigger releases from back then like Napiers.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Bob*

Not what I am talking about. Lock time is a rifle/shotgun shooter term which refers to the time between when the trigger is pressed till the time the firing pin hits the primer. In skeet shooting you can certainly tell the difference and a crisp trigger with a fast lock time is a definite advantage. In bows you could discuss the time from when you press the trigger on a thumb trigger release and the time the release fires and I think we do address that by knowing that whatever trigger release we shoot we don't want to feel any travel in the mechanism. But to the larger point I am talking about is the time from the release till the nock comes off the string. During that critical time you can still screw the shot up. My question was if the reduced time the arrow is in the bow on a 270+fps bow when compared to say a 230 fps bow impacts on scoring. I wouldn't think that it would be a big difference but I would think it would help to a small degree.
Jbird


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Not what I am talking about. Lock time is a rifle/shotgun shooter term which refers to the time between when the trigger is pressed till the time the firing pin hits the primer. In skeet shooting you can certainly tell the difference and a crisp trigger with a fast lock time is a definite advantage. In bows you could discuss the time from when you press the trigger on a thumb trigger release and the time the release fires and I think we do address that by knowing that whatever trigger release we shoot we don't want to feel any travel in the mechanism. But to the larger point I am talking about is the time from the release till the nock comes off the string. During that critical time you can still screw the shot up. My question was if the reduced time the arrow is in the bow on a 270+fps bow when compared to say a 230 fps bow impacts on scoring. I wouldn't think that it would be a big difference but I would think it would help to a small degree.
> Jbird


I understand what you are saying but....if my S4 shoots my McKinney II's at 284 fps and an X10 at 265 fps.....wouldn't the "lock time" be the same? The bow isn't firing any slower. The arrow is just moving slower AFTER it leaves the bow. :noidea:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> I understand what you are saying but....if my S4 shoots my McKinney II's at 284 fps and an X10 at 265 fps.....wouldn't the "lock time" be the same? The bow isn't firing any slower. The arrow is just moving slower AFTER it leaves the bow. :noidea:


Which would have a shorter time on the track; a top fuel dragster accellerating to 284 mph, or a funny car accellerating to 265 mph?

Its not quite that simple considering bows, but given the same powerstroke from the same bow the faster arrow would give the shortest time on the string.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Hornet*

As Bob describes above with the drag car anology, your X-10 example doesn't just move slower after it leaves the bow. It is actually in and attached to the bow (nock on string) longer. The time from firing of the release till the arrow comes out of the rest and the nock leaves the string is
a very critical time because you can inadvertantly affect the shot by moving your bow hand left, right, or up. It also aggrivates the problem of follow through. As we all know, any hint of dropping your bow arm on the 80 yarder is a quick trip to a low 4 or worse. Getting the arrow out of the bow before you can screw up the shot has to help. Of course they don't make a bow fast enough for me not to find a way. LOL
Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> As Bob describes above with the drag car anology, your X-10 example doesn't just move slower after it leaves the bow. It is actually in and attached to the bow (nock on string) longer. The time from firing of the release till the arrow comes out of the rest and the nock leaves the string is
> a very critical time because you can inadvertantly affect the shot by moving your bow hand left, right, or up. It also aggrivates the problem of follow through. As we all know, any hint of dropping your bow arm on the 80 yarder is a quick trip to a low 4 or worse. Getting the arrow out of the bow before you can screw up the shot has to help. Of course they don't make a bow fast enough for me not to find a way. LOL
> Jbird


Jay,
don't forget...THE LENGTH OF THE POWER STROKE differs with shooters of different TRUE DRAW LENGTHS too...the shooter with the SHORTER draw length has "shorter lock time" since their power stroke is shorter...but then, they MIGHT have lower "speed of the bow", thus giving a potential "wash" to the final "lock time".

But, if your power stroke is TRUE DRAW LENGTH MINUS BRACE HEIGHT (for practical purposes)....the "lock time" is in thousandths of a second....and I wonder how much it REALLY MATTERS?

So...if an arrow is at 265 fps, then it is traveling 3,180 inches per second (265 X 12). If at 280 fps, then it travels at 3360 inches per second (280 X 12).

Now, if the true draw is 26.5" and the BH of the bow is 8" (to keep it simple), then the power stroke is 26.5 - 8 (to keep it simple) or 18.5 inches.

The time needed to travel 18.5" at 240 fps is (18.5 divided by 2880 inches per second) or 0.00642 seconds.
The time needed to travel 18.5" at 265 fps is: 0.00581 seconds.
The time needed to travel 18.5" at 280 fps is: 0.00550 seconds.

For a difference of 0.00092 seconds between the slowest bow and the 280 fps bow. for a power stroke of 18.5 inches...and NOT allowing for the "spring of the string and its oscillation forward from momentum to launch the arrow ( I don't know this distance, and it would vary highly with the poundage of the bow, the stiffness of the limbs, the type of cam, and type of string material, AND the weight of the arrow/projectile.
I don't quite think that we can really do much of anything in that short of a time interval???? 9 ten-thousanths of a second? I dunno Jay...I'm fast...but NOT THAT FAST, hahahaha. It is only THREE ten-thousandths of a second between 265 and 280...we humans cannot react that fast...but I guess the bow/sight picture could....but then it involves vectors, muscle response times and how far we could move something in that short of a time interval......

Sometimes we gotta put a bit more perspective on things...

Splitting hairs...yes, but as you can see.. "lock time" may not have as much impact on the final outcome as we might think.

field14:tongue::wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Jay,
> don't forget...THE LENGTH OF THE POWER STROKE differs with shooters of different TRUE DRAW LENGTHS too...the shooter with the SHORTER draw length has "shorter lock time" since their power stroke is shorter...but then, they MIGHT have lower "speed of the bow", thus giving a potential "wash" to the final "lock time".
> 
> But, if your power stroke is TRUE DRAW LENGTH MINUS BRACE HEIGHT (for practical purposes)....the "lock time" is in thousandths of a second....and I wonder how much it REALLY MATTERS?
> ...


Precisely Field, to actually affect the shot in that critical few Thousandths of a second you would already have to be in motion, and if that is the case "Lock time" is the least of your worries.


(and if you really want to bend you mind with the math, do a quick calc of how many RPM's your cams are turning to move the string that speed)


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

field14 said:


> ...So...if an arrow is at 265 fps, then it is traveling 3,180 inches per second (265 X 12). If at 280 fps, then it travels at 3360 inches per second (280 X 12).
> 
> Now, if the true draw is 26.5" and the BH of the bow is 8" (to keep it simple), then the power stroke is 26.5 - 8 (to keep it simple) or 18.5 inches.
> 
> ...


Its not even that much of a difference because they're all starting out at zero inches per second.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Yeah I agree with field14, Hutnicks and Bob here. The time difference on the string is not an issue at all. 
If you can change the arrow's direction at this point you are anticipating the shot and punching the trigger.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*When you Do the Math*

What you are saying makes sense. I don't know how long in milliseconds it takes to move your sight while aiming but there must be something significant between the time your mind "says shoot" and the time the projectile leaves the bow. If this is not the case why are the rifle and pistol
competitors spending up to $500 on custom triggers including lighter trigger hammers to reduce lock time? I have and I know many others that are better shooters than me have realized that the shot was not centered when it went off and put a little "english" on it to correct the shot. As a matter of fact I have seen Cousins do this numerous times so either he is kidding himself or significant movement takes a lot less time than you would think. Believe me, I recognize this is way down the path to "over thinking it" but it is interesting.
Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> What you are saying makes sense. I don't know how long in milliseconds it takes to move your sight while aiming but there must be something significant between the time your mind "says shoot" and the time the projectile leaves the bow. If this is not the case why are the rifle and pistol
> competitors spending up to $500 on custom triggers including lighter trigger hammers to reduce lock time? I have and I know many others that are better shooters than me have realized that the shot was not centered when it went off and put a little "english" on it to correct the shot. As a matter of fact I have seen Cousins do this numerous times so either he is kidding himself or significant movement takes a lot less time than you would think. Believe me, I recognize this is way down the path to "over thinking it" but it is interesting.
> Jbird


I hear you on that, JBird...but putting numbers to it sure does bring home things about "over-thinking".

Personally, I've found that putting "english" on a shot doesn't work FOR ME...so I use "french", "austrian", 'italian', or "spanish" to shoot and "OHNO"...

You know...the "OHNO" is the shot that a person says "OH, NO" on and it ALWAYS lands in the X-ring? I'm sure you have shot plenty of those and hear people say Oh,no and nail an X with it too, right?

Of course, I've also shot the OH, S*** , shots too...and those are the ones that are OUT, sometimes WAY OUT, hahaha.

Just remember the response time from what the eye sees and your muscle reaction time doesn't always "match up"...besides, always remember this tid-bit...

It takes light 8.3 minutes to get from the Sun to the Earth...so we are ALWAYS BEHIND when it comes to the seeing the sun....we see it where it WAS...8.3 minutes ago. Makes you feel good, doesn't it, to ALWAYS be behind.:tongue::wink:

field14


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Yeah I agree with field14, Hutnicks and Bob here. The time difference on the string is not an issue at all.
> If you can change the arrow's direction at this point you are anticipating the shot and punching the trigger.


That is what I was getting at without being all technical or using calculus


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> What you are saying makes sense. I don't know how long in milliseconds it takes to move your sight while aiming but there must be something significant between the time your mind "says shoot" and the time the projectile leaves the bow. If this is not the case why are the rifle and pistol
> competitors spending up to $500 on custom triggers including lighter trigger hammers to reduce lock time? I have and I know many others that are better shooters than me have realized that the shot was not centered when it went off and put a little "english" on it to correct the shot. As a matter of fact I have seen Cousins do this numerous times so either he is kidding himself or significant movement takes a lot less time than you would think. Believe me, I recognize this is way down the path to "over thinking it" but it is interesting.
> Jbird



Stop worrying or trying to control something you shouldn't be trying to control anyway.....

In simple terms....stop telling yourself to SHOOT. :wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> That is what I was getting at without being all technical or using calculus



Actually is was simple DIVISION...to several decimal places...:darkbeer:

But all the other things about from ZERO to 3,380 inches per second, etc and the vectors, and adjustments for limb and string flex, muscle resonse time, the "amount of fluid in the neuron to neuron synapse, and the speed of the electical impulses across the synapses to get to the brain and to the muscle again...is higher math than that.

But simple division brought home the point. But I will guarantee you that I USED A CALCULATOR...to instead of a WAG (Wild A**ED GUESS), it became a SWAG...a "Scientific Wild A**ED Guess." hahahaha:tongue::wink:

field14:cocktail:


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Keep in mind that you are not moving sideways in a direct path with target, rather a cone shape. I find when I am locked in well on a shot that the 10 zone is bigger than visually appears because I have that cone centred on the middle. So what appears to be a shot aimed just off the 5 is actually aimed inside the 5. Remember that your sight is a rough guide, not an absolute. 
Sometimes that cone is not centred in the middle and a well aimed shot just misses, the alignments all felt wrong. 
This is why throwing the bowarm appears to work for surprize release shooters. The reality is that if they use a surprize release (as Cousins does) then they can not throw the arrow in, there is just not enough time to react enough.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Hornet*

I don't think in my mind shoot. I am shooting a hinge with a consistant surprise release. I was just using that for a stop on one end of the process.
Maybe I should have said commit to the shot and start the process but that's a little muddy for the illustration.
Jbird


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Jbird said:


> What you are saying makes sense. I don't know how long in milliseconds it takes to move your sight while aiming but there must be something significant between the time your mind "says shoot" and the time the projectile leaves the bow. If this is not the case why are the rifle and pistol
> competitors spending up to $500 on custom triggers including lighter trigger hammers to reduce lock time? I have and I know many others that are better shooters than me have realized that the shot was not centered when it went off and put a little "english" on it to correct the shot. As a matter of fact I have seen Cousins do this numerous times so either he is kidding himself or significant movement takes a lot less time than you would think. Believe me, I recognize this is way down the path to "over thinking it" but it is interesting.
> Jbird


Then again Jim Nygord cleaned up all along the coast back a few years with a 49 dollar Daisy 717 air pistol on the 10M circuit. Outshooting the high buck Steyr and Anschutz techno guns, just to prove it could be done.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I have frequently commented that the time an arrow is on the string during the shot, when considering the difference in short vs long brace heights is so minimal that BH is not a factor in accuracy; however, in retrospect, when I consider how far my scope can move across a target in thousandths of a second, perhaps we are all wrong here!! I can move into the 7 or 8 ring from the little X in a flash and then back again and out the other side in a shorter flash.

Just kidding, I hope!!!


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

rsw said:


> I have frequently commented that the time an arrow is on the string during the shot, when considering the difference in short vs long brace heights is so minimal that BH is not a factor in accuracy; however, in retrospect, when I consider how far my scope can move across a target in thousandths of a second, perhaps we are all wrong here!! I can move into the 7 or 8 ring from the little X in a flash and then back again and out the other side in a shorter flash.
> 
> Just kidding, I hope!!!


Or to look at it from the positive side. Think of the total string time for an entire round, now who can't hold a pin on target for what ,1/3 sec for the entire round?


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

rsw said:


> I have frequently commented that the time an arrow is on the string during the shot, when considering the difference in short vs long brace heights is so minimal that BH is not a factor in accuracy; however, in retrospect, when I consider how far my scope can move across a target in thousandths of a second, perhaps we are all wrong here!! I can move into the 7 or 8 ring from the little X in a flash and then back again and out the other side in a shorter flash.
> 
> Just kidding, I hope!!!


Yeah I laugh my butt off when someone shooting a 7" BH bow says that a 6 5/8" BH bow is too short


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