# IBO Scores



## LoneWolfArcher (Jun 6, 2006)

Better yet, why didn't any posters here that are there use their phone to take picture of the results sheets and post them. Only the 3rd time since 04 I've missed the Worlds, its killing me!!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

LoneWolfArcher said:


> Better yet, why didn't any posters here that are there use their phone to take picture of the results sheets and post them. Only the 3rd time since 04 I've missed the Worlds, its killing me!!


And they wonder why there's not more interest in archery and 3D. Wake up, IBO!!!


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Like i said AT should add another forum


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

nochance said:


> Like i said AT should add another forum


:thumbs_up


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Yeah, it's almost as though there is no 3D shoot this weekend. IBO isn't covering it, BowJunky isn't covering it, CAM isn't covering it. I can't remember anytime in the Social Media age when no one bothered to post updates for a national level archery tournament... crazy.


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

All I can say is, if your not here,you are missing a very good event. Vendor area's are packed with people, Nice Bowhunter defense shootoff Thursday evening and anyone had a chance to win.Eagle Eye Friday night with a ton of shooters and 1st and third were not pro's. Lots of family's here .I see a lot of people having a great time including my wife and I.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

draw29 said:


> All I can say is, if your not here,you are missing a very good event. Vendor area's are packed with people, Nice Bowhunter defense shootoff Thursday evening and anyone had a chance to win.Eagle Eye Friday night with a ton of shooters and 1st and third were not pro's. Lots of family's here .I see a lot of people having a great time including my wife and I.


wish i could have, couldn't afford to take three days off work without pay. How'd you shoot?


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

I did manage to win the 1st round of the Bowhunter Defense shootoff and got a ABB strings for my bow. Shot an 11 2nd round and lost by 1/16th ". Looking forward to next year. Couldn't hit that little orange dot in the Eagle Eye. The pic was 1 of several rounds of shooters in the Eagle Eye shootout for $1,000 1st,$500 2nd and $250 -3rd.


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

Your future bowhunter winner.

Eagle Eye winners.

Bowhunter defense winners.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

draw29 said:


> All I can say is, if your not here,you are missing a very good event. Vendor area's are packed with people, Nice Bowhunter defense shootoff Thursday evening and anyone had a chance to win.Eagle Eye Friday night with a ton of shooters and 1st and third were not pro's. Lots of family's here .I see a lot of people having a great time including my wife and I.


I second that. Ive been shooting mostly ASA for a while, but decided to qualify and shoot the IBO Worlds since it was an hour from my home this year. With all the down talk about the IBO here on AT and elsewhere, I did not expect much. And I like shooting known yardage, but I thought- what the heck- let's shoot it. I gotta say, I had a blast. The courses we shot were diversified, creative trail type set ups with beautiful shots. The flow of the course through alpine forests and mountain streams, rock ledges and some grassy openings was awesome. Uphill, downhill, sidehill. Much more interesting than the cramped lane fest that the ASA has become with the ASA putting different target stake lanes literally 20 feet from one another and continuing to drop larger animal targets from their shoots = boring. I really forgot how nice a true trail type set up can be. Shooting at elk in a stream setting and caribou on a mountain slope, big goats and sheep on moss covered rock ledges. Cool stuff.
Tough walking in some portions through the moss and mountain rocks but beautiful hunting type situations. 

It was mostly well run shoot and well attended with over 1,000 archers. Snowshoe is a stunning venue. I'd love to see them add known yardage and sure- post scores nightly would help too. Bonus- the amount of kids and families shooting was pretty impressive as well. NASP championship and just tons of kids with bows was inspiring to see. The vendor count was strong as well. Not quite as many as ASA but still respectable.

With the ASA continuing to push further south - with my average drive time now at about 9 to 10 hours- not to even factor in Phoenix City AL or Texas. I have to look at the money I spend and time taken- and seriously think about moving totally over to the IBO schedule next year. Even if I have to start practice judging yardage again. For amateur mid-atlantic and northeast shooters its getting harder to justify that type of dollar and travel commitment to the ASA. With just a few tweaks in their platform and marketing and some known yardage classes the IBO can own the, mid-atlantic and northeast. And even if they don't tweak it- I gotta say- I had more fun and found the courses more interesting than the ASA.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Glad you went and had a good time and didnt listen to the same old 8 guys on here. IBO is not perfect, Id like to see them add a known class to appease many. They already own the NE. Due to lack of competition


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

IBO scores are posted on their site now.


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

vahylander said:


> I second that. Ive been shooting mostly ASA for a while, but decided to qualify and shoot the IBO Worlds since it was an hour from my home this year. With all the down talk about the IBO here on AT and elsewhere, I did not expect much. And I like shooting known yardage, but I thought- what the heck- let's shoot it. I gotta say, I had a blast. The courses we shot were diversified, creative trail type set ups with beautiful shots. The flow of the course through alpine forests and mountain streams, rock ledges and some grassy openings was awesome. Uphill, downhill, sidehill. Much more interesting than the cramped lane fest that the ASA has become with the ASA putting different target stake lanes literally 20 feet from one another and continuing to drop larger animal targets from their shoots = boring. I really forgot how nice a true trail type set up can be. Shooting at elk in a stream setting and caribou on a mountain slope, big goats and sheep on moss covered rock ledges. Cool stuff.
> Tough walking in some portions through the moss and mountain rocks but beautiful hunting type situations.
> 
> It was mostly well run shoot and well attended with over 1,000 archers. Snowshoe is a stunning venue. I'd love to see them add known yardage and sure- post scores nightly would help too. Bonus- the amount of kids and families shooting was pretty impressive as well. NASP championship and just tons of kids with bows was inspiring to see. The vendor count was strong as well. Not quite as many as ASA but still respectable.
> ...


VERY well put. I agree with you on this. Just add a known class to appease the people that want to shoot it, and IBO is all set.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

arrowblaster said:


> VERY well put. I agree with you on this. Just add a known class to appease the people that want to shoot it, and IBO is all set.


And don't walk us geezers to death.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

vahylander said:


> I second that. Ive been shooting mostly ASA for a while, but decided to qualify and shoot the IBO Worlds since it was an hour from my home this year. With all the down talk about the IBO here on AT and elsewhere, I did not expect much. And I like shooting known yardage, but I thought- what the heck- let's shoot it. I gotta say, I had a blast. The courses we shot were diversified, creative trail type set ups with beautiful shots. The flow of the course through alpine forests and mountain streams, rock ledges and some grassy openings was awesome. Uphill, downhill, sidehill. Much more interesting than the cramped lane fest that the ASA has become with the ASA putting different target stake lanes literally 20 feet from one another and continuing to drop larger animal targets from their shoots = boring. I really forgot how nice a true trail type set up can be. Shooting at elk in a stream setting and caribou on a mountain slope, big goats and sheep on moss covered rock ledges. Cool stuff.
> Tough walking in some portions through the moss and mountain rocks but beautiful hunting type situations.
> 
> It was mostly well run shoot and well attended with over 1,000 archers. Snowshoe is a stunning venue. I'd love to see them add known yardage and sure- post scores nightly would help too. Bonus- the amount of kids and families shooting was pretty impressive as well. NASP championship and just tons of kids with bows was inspiring to see. The vendor count was strong as well. Not quite as many as ASA but still respectable.
> ...


There's a lot less to complain about at IBO Worlds than the Triple Crown legs.. they are run completely differently... Worlds has the look and feel of a National level tournament... Legs do not.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

nestly said:


> There's a lot less to complain about at IBO Worlds than the Triple Crown legs.. they are run completely differently... Worlds has the look and feel of a National level tournament... Legs do not.


Do explain. I'd like to know before I pull the plug on long ASA trips.


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## ahcnc (Nov 2, 2009)

I don't think they should post scores until EVERYONE is thru shooting......


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

vahylander said:


> Do explain. I'd like to know before I pull the plug on long ASA trips.


The format and structure of the IBO legs is completely different than IBO Worlds. Legs are basically a club shoot with casual registration, no group assignments, virtually non-existent awards, and greatly reduced vendor and shooter support. If you like the format of ASA series and IBO Worlds, I highly suggest you go shoot one of the IBO legs before canceling your ASA plans. The competitive controls in IBO Triple crown for amateurs are so loose that I don't even consider them legitimate competition.


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## Trykon Mike (Aug 25, 2007)

vahylander said:


> I second that. Ive been shooting mostly ASA for a while, but decided to qualify and shoot the IBO Worlds since it was an hour from my home this year. With all the down talk about the IBO here on AT and elsewhere, I did not expect much. And I like shooting known yardage, but I thought- what the heck- let's shoot it. I gotta say, I had a blast. The courses we shot were diversified, creative trail type set ups with beautiful shots. The flow of the course through alpine forests and mountain streams, rock ledges and some grassy openings was awesome. Uphill, downhill, sidehill. Much more interesting than the cramped lane fest that the ASA has become with the ASA putting different target stake lanes literally 20 feet from one another and continuing to drop larger animal targets from their shoots = boring. I really forgot how nice a true trail type set up can be. Shooting at elk in a stream setting and caribou on a mountain slope, big goats and sheep on moss covered rock ledges. Cool stuff.
> Tough walking in some portions through the moss and mountain rocks but beautiful hunting type situations.
> 
> It was mostly well run shoot and well attended with over 1,000 archers. Snowshoe is a stunning venue. I'd love to see them add known yardage and sure- post scores nightly would help too. Bonus- the amount of kids and families shooting was pretty impressive as well. NASP championship and just tons of kids with bows was inspiring to see. The vendor count was strong as well. Not quite as many as ASA but still respectable.
> ...


Could not have said it better about the courses
I have never shot in a setting like that , really liked all the moss.


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

carlosii said:


> And don't walk us geezers to death.


I fall in that class too! Don't mind the walks at all!


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## TankerSarge (Jan 7, 2011)

One of the big reasons for not posting scores right away was no cell service. You cant have one of the workers at one of the tents text a picture of scores and send them up and post them. They literally had to wait for the last card to be walked to Registration. That’s why the coverage of scores was challenging. Also why the IBO didn’t go live. And the competition was covered by Cam. They had Shrewd do the photos. The IBO is set to meet with Cam to talk future coverage. As for the comment by Nestle Crunch. Y’all just need to come shoot the legs yourself and see what it’s all about. Pipestem is very comparable to Worlds and honestly one of the harder shoots. Bloomington is gorgeous with the lake and resort camping etc. Franklin PA with Tom Prody is an absolute Home Run almost no complaints about that venue or that shoot. As for saying people are cheating and not held to a standard because they don’t have assigned groups is a legitimate concern. Don’t be surprised if you see more State Reps Directors and Coordinators from the IBO on the courses making sure integrity is being followed. And don’t think for a second a guy that wins the IBO isn’t looking at his previous scores. This isn’t 2011 or 12. The IBO is a fantastic Family oriented Archery Organization. But don’t take my word for it come shoot.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rhyno_071 (Feb 22, 2009)

They had the pros scores posted on Facebook.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

TankerSarge said:


> .....As for the comment by Nestle Crunch. Y’all just need to come shoot the legs yourself and see what it’s all about


I've shot plenty of IBO NTC and Worlds in the past... I did quite well and I've shot in the finals a couple times at IBO Worlds, then I took a fairly long break from competitive 3D. When I shot my my first NTC event again a couple years ago I was thoroughly disappointed with what IBO has become, and that prompted me to look into deeper IBO's recent trends. It's no wonder IBO attendance is plummeting, they're not meeting the needs of the shooters, or the vendors. I'm not speaking as someone that's unfamilar with national level competitions, I've shot a lot of them and I know what they should look like, and what they shouldn't look like. IBO Worlds is reasonalbly well run, IBO legs are not because the format is not conducive to it, and the quality of the site and courses for the "legs" is largely dependent on the host club... some clubs do a good job with the courses.. some not so much.


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

The IBO Worlds are always great, well run, organized and fair. Venues are awesome. IBO should run all of their events the same way. If you shoot 3D and don’t attend, you are missing out!

That being said: At snowshoe they need to at least open up some unsecured Wi-Fi so that communication with and between attendees can be improved. 
Also, only Posting score sheets in one place and pinning the up on a window, and not publishing them electronically in a quick fashion is archaic and old fashioned.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The IBO is real 3D. I like it. I do wish they would go to shotgun starts to eliminate the good ole boy scoring on the NTC.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

sagecreek said:


> The IBO is real 3D. I like it. I do wish they would go to shotgun starts to eliminate the good ole boy scoring on the NTC.


And known yardage...don't forget known yardage...and don't walk an old fart to death.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

carlosii said:


> And known yardage...don't forget known yardage...and don't walk an old fart to death.


Not a fan of known yardage, but what ever makes you happy.


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## tprody (Feb 28, 2010)

First off thank you TankerSarge for the compliment on the third. I can assure you that there was more attention paid to groups at the third leg and my tent workers were instructed to watch addresses and people turning in cards wearing matching jerseys. Groups were busted and in fact some of my people were threatened and argued with with they were told they were being busted. I believe the IBO now has three solid venues for the Triple crown and anyone not attending is missing out on a very good time.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

all the NTC i've been to have busted up groups


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

LoneWolfArcher said:


> Better yet, why didn't any posters here that are there use their phone to take picture of the results sheets and post them. Only the 3rd time since 04 I've missed the Worlds, its killing me!!


There is almost zero cell service at Snowshoe. WiFi in my room wasn't much better....



draw29 said:


> All I can say is, if your not here,you are missing a very good event. Vendor area's are packed with people, Nice Bowhunter defense shootoff Thursday evening and anyone had a chance to win.Eagle Eye Friday night with a ton of shooters and 1st and third were not pro's. Lots of family's here .I see a lot of people having a great time including my wife and I.


I agree, this was an excellent shoot!!! One of the most challenging events I've ever been in. After dealing with those mountains, I'm gonna give myself a week to recover and start training for next year!!!


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## cowdocdvm (Apr 24, 2011)

My family and I had a wonderful time at snowshoe! The ntc legs were wonderful as well. It’s kinda sad it’s over. I can not wait to see it all start again next year!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

cowdocdvm said:


> My family and I had a wonderful time at snowshoe! The ntc legs were wonderful as well. It’s kinda sad it’s over. I can not wait to see it all start again next year!


That's what everyone I have talked to is saying about the IBO that shot it this year. I like both the ASA and IBO. I'm glad they are both different. I wish both of them well.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

79 in HC and 67 in MBO!


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> 79 in HC and 67 in MBO!


Interesting. I just pulled out my results from 2nd leg in 1997 (12 pages of results, MBO and MBR pages attached below)

Total shooters 1478
MBO - 550
MBR - 218
MBA (compound fingers) 71
Hows that for some perspective about where IBO was compared to where it is now especially considering ASA has maintained or grown in the same time frame.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

how many classes were there in 1997?


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

How's the fingers classes in ASA?


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## cougarIIInow (Feb 16, 2003)

Off topic a little but I found my name on the MBO list. Holy cow I stunk it up bad. 317. Thanks for posting that. I did not shoot an IBO this year but shot the Metropolis ASA. I would have went to the world but just cant justify taking three days off of work to go. I will shoot some IBO next year though. I did miss it.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

nochance said:


> how many classes were there in 1997?


I counted 21 classes in the 1997 2nd leg results, IMO, too many classes is part of what killed IBO.
If your point was that shooters are now sub-divided into many more classes than in 1997, I agree, but even still, MBA, MBO, and MBR totals nearly 850 amateurs men that shot IBO with sights back then, I think it's about 1/3 that number now if you add up all the amateur male classes now. That 1/3 percentage is pretty typical for womens classes, as well as Pro and Semi Pro classes.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Well I just did both the ASA Classic in Alabama and then shot the IBO Worlds in Snowshoe. I'm a semi-regular ASA shooter and have not shot IBO since the late 90s. But I gotta say, I enjoyed the IBO shoot more. Better venue. Better courses, Better family atmosphere. I detailed some of this in post #11 on this thread. I know the ASA has more shooters and the 12 game is fun. But the courses are just repetitive and not as creative and designed for lots of folks packed onto stools on flat dirt lanes- shooting stacked, cramped target lanes. London KY is the worst- a hot as hell power line- shooting over and over into dark tunnels. Tedious, hot and boring. I forgot how much I like a creative trail set up with thought given to creative shots and diversity. To each his own. Say what you want about the money etc. being better with ASA. But I'm not a pro nor in this to make money- even winning the occasional few hundred dollars here and there every year pales in comparison to my archery spend over the decades. Just ask my wife- pretty sure she keeps a secret running tab


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

vahylander said:


> Well I just did both the ASA Classic in Alabama and then shot the IBO Worlds in Snowshoe. I'm a semi-regular ASA shooter and have not shot IBO since the late 90s. But I gotta say, I enjoyed the IBO shoot more. Better venue. Better courses, Better family atmosphere. I detailed some of this in post #11 on this thread. I know the ASA has more shooters and the 12 game is fun. But the courses are just repetitive and not as creative and designed for lots of folks packed onto stools on flat dirt lanes- shooting stacked, cramped target lanes. London KY is the worst- a hot as hell power line- shooting over and over into dark tunnels. Tedious, hot and boring. I forgot how much I like a creative trail set up with thought given to creative shots and diversity. To each his own. Say what you want about the money etc. being better with ASA. But I'm not a pro nor in this to make money- even winning the occasional few hundred dollars here and there every year pales in comparison to my archery spend over the decades. Just ask my wife- pretty sure she keeps a secret running tab


I also would prefer walk-through courses if all else were equal. IBO Worlds was never the problem, there's generally good attendance and good venues there, it's the NTC legs that are operated on a completely different competition format and the venues and courses are hit or miss. Legs are literally just a club shoot, where you show up when you want, shoot with who you want (for the most part) and go home without ever seeing or meeting your competition, much less shooting with them. That's no way to run a national level competition. Unless you're in the running for the Triple crown title, there's literally no reason to shoot an IBO leg vs a local shoot, there's no recognition in either, and even if you finish on the podium at a leg, you're going to end up with less in your pocket after travel expenses than shooting a local shoot that doesn't pay back at all.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

I have to agree with this


vahylander said:


> Well I just did both the ASA Classic in Alabama and then shot the IBO Worlds in Snowshoe. I'm a semi-regular ASA shooter and have not shot IBO since the late 90s. But I gotta say, I enjoyed the IBO shoot more. Better venue. Better courses, Better family atmosphere. I detailed some of this in post #11 on this thread. I know the ASA has more shooters and the 12 game is fun. But the courses are just repetitive and not as creative and designed for lots of folks packed onto stools on flat dirt lanes- shooting stacked, cramped target lanes. London KY is the worst- a hot as hell power line- shooting over and over into dark tunnels. Tedious, hot and boring. I forgot how much I like a creative trail set up with thought given to creative shots and diversity. To each his own. Say what you want about the money etc. being better with ASA. But I'm not a pro nor in this to make money- even winning the occasional few hundred dollars here and there every year pales in comparison to my archery spend over the decades. Just ask my wife- pretty sure she keeps a secret running tab


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

My first Worlds was at Snowshoe, there were over 250 shooters in HC.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

nestly said:


> The format and structure of the IBO legs is completely different than IBO Worlds. Legs are basically a club shoot with casual registration, no group assignments, virtually non-existent awards, and greatly reduced vendor and shooter support. If you like the format of ASA series and IBO Worlds, I highly suggest you go shoot one of the IBO legs before canceling your ASA plans. The competitive controls in IBO Triple crown for amateurs are so loose that I don't even consider them legitimate competition.


I agree 100% you made as true of statement as can be made


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

nestly said:


> I also would prefer walk-through courses if all else were equal. IBO Worlds was never the problem, there's generally good attendance and good venues there, it's the NTC legs that are operated on a completely different competition format and the venues and courses are hit or miss. Legs are literally just a club shoot, where you show up when you want, shoot with who you want (for the most part) and go home without ever seeing or meeting your competition, much less shooting with them. That's no way to run a national level competition. Unless you're in the running for the Triple crown title, there's literally no reason to shoot an IBO leg vs a local shoot, there's no recognition in either, and even if you finish on the podium at a leg, you're going to end up with less in your pocket after travel expenses than shooting a local shoot that doesn't pay back at all.


Well I hope they get their acts together and bring the TC legs up a notch. All I can speak to are the two crown jewel shoots this year for each organization. The Classic and the IBO Worlds- and for me personally- the IBO wins it this year on multiple levels. Different game and archer profile maybe. Now I'm not a Pro- so if you are talking about the Pro game, money, etc.- thats a different comparison and conversation. But I would shoot both, because shooting either is better than being at work. But ASA is moving away from us here in VA and its hard to justify 10 to 15 hour rides to shoot those.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

tprody said:


> First off thank you TankerSarge for the compliment on the third. I can assure you that there was more attention paid to groups at the third leg and my tent workers were instructed to watch addresses and people turning in cards wearing matching jerseys. Groups were busted and in fact some of my people were threatened and argued with with they were told they were being busted. I believe the IBO now has three solid venues for the Triple crown and anyone not attending is missing out on a very good time.
> 
> TPrody….. I have to say I shot the best IBO course that I have ever shot at the 3rd Leg. It was as close as you could get to an easy walking but not boring as crap course like the ASA and still keep a descent amount of terrain to make the course challenging. I shot the MBO class ranges and if you can incorporate what you did with those ranges to all of them, the 3rd Leg will continue to grow.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

IBO will continue to ignore hundreds of archers who prefer known yardage. Just mho.


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## happycamper08 (May 7, 2016)

carlosii said:


> IBO will continue to ignore hundreds of archers who prefer known yardage. Just mho.


Not to single you out, as many others have said the same, but why do you need the crutch of known yardage? If you need to know the distance wouldn't field archery be more to your liking?


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## bowjoe1800 (Sep 8, 2008)

happycamper08 said:


> Not to single you out, as many others have said the same, but why do you need the crutch of known yardage? If you need to know the distance wouldn't field archery be more to your liking?[/QUOTE
> 
> If IBO says they are a bowhunting not an archery organization, how many bowhunters do not use a range finder?


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

If you want the scores, you go to the IBO.net website and put in the division you want. http://iboscores.com/results.php



I had no issues following my friends that went this year.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Laars said:


> If you want the scores, you go to the IBO.net website and put in the division you want. http://iboscores.com/results.php
> 
> 
> 
> I had no issues following my friends that went this year.


Thank you for NOT going low enough to include my score!!!!

Even though it was a tough course, I still feel like I missed a lot of scoring opportunities...


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

bowjoe1800 said:


> happycamper08 said:
> 
> 
> > Not to single you out, as many others have said the same, but why do you need the crutch of known yardage? If you need to know the distance wouldn't field archery be more to your liking?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Laars said:


> bowjoe1800 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a range finder. I range kill zones from my tree stand. What happens if the deer moves 5 yards or 12 yards in a different direction? I don't pull the range finder out and check again. If you do, most likely the shot is gone. You adjust, and make the shot. Learning to judge yardage is not a bad thing. Your missing a huge part of the 3D game that is actually fun.
> ...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

happycamper08 said:


> Not to single you out, as many others have said the same, but why do you need the crutch of known yardage? If you need to know the distance wouldn't field archery be more to your liking?


By that logic, a compound bow is a crutch vs a recurve, release aids are a crutch compared to shooting with fingers, and sights are a crutch compared to shooting barebow. Rangefinders are as much a part of archery/bowhunting now as compounds, mechanical releases, and sights. Rangefinders are not a "crutch" they are a normal and expected advancement in our sport to improve the accuracy and lethality of archers/bowhunters, just as the other items mentioned above are.

What do you hope to accomplish by telling those who want to use rangefinders they are not welcome at IBO? You're not going to convince them put down their rangefinder and dedicate the time to become a proficient yardage judger just so they can attend IBO, all you're doing is reducing attendance at IBO. You need to open your eyes, unknown shooters are the recurve/fingers/barebow shooters of the 20th century, you are minority clinging to old habits, you're not the "pure" or "elite" or "noble" class you think you are. If you choose to shoot that style, go ahead, but please stop trying to deny that choice to others.


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

HalonShooter60X said:


> Thank you for NOT going low enough to include my score!!!!
> 
> Even though it was a tough course, I still feel like I missed a lot of scoring opportunities...


Hey, you were there so that's better then I did.:greenwithenvy: .:thumbs_up I wasn't able to go, even though I qualified.


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## tprody (Feb 28, 2010)

nestly said:


> By that logic, a compound bow is a crutch vs a recurve, release aids are a crutch compared to shooting with fingers, and sights are a crutch compared to shooting barebow. Rangefinders are as much a part of archery/bowhunting now as compounds, mechanical releases, and sights. Rangefinders are not a "crutch" they are a normal and expected advancement in our sport to improve the accuracy and lethality of archers/bowhunters, just as the other items mentioned above are.
> 
> What do you hope to accomplish by telling those who want to use rangefinders they are not welcome at IBO? You're not going to convince them put down their rangefinder and dedicate the time to become a proficient yardage judger just so they can attend IBO, all you're doing is reducing attendance at IBO. You need to open your eyes, unknown shooters are the recurve/fingers/barebow shooters of the 20th century, you are minority clinging to old habits, you're not the "pure" or "elite" class you think you are. If you choose to shoot that style, go ahead, but please stop trying to deny that choice to others.


We're not trying to deny anyone. Just don't know why people feel the need to take down the IBO over it. If you want to shoot known go shoot it. Just stop condemning what we like to do because it doesn't fit your criteria. IMO tha ASA shoots the 12 and 14 rings the IBO shoots center 11s making them two different games.

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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

tprody said:


> We're not trying to deny anyone. Just don't know why people feel the need to take down the IBO over it. If you want to shoot known go shoot it. Just stop condemning what we like to do because it doesn't fit your criteria. IMO tha ASA shoots the 12 and 14 rings the IBO shoots center 11s making them two different games.


What are you talking about? You (IBO) absolutely are denying known shooters the ability to participate in IBO.
Known shooters currently have zero control over what happens at IBO, so if IBO is being "taken down" (and it is) it's being done from within without any "help" from known.

If IBO had never permitted mechanical releases, it would have taken itself down, in the same way IBO is taking itself down now by not allowing rangefinders. You can still shoot fingers if you want, and you can still shoot unknown if you want, but the choice of shooting style must exist because just as archery has evolved past the days where the majority wants to shoot with fingers, it has also evolved past the point where the majority wants to shoot unknown.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

nestly said:


> What are you talking about? You (IBO) absolutely are denying known shooters the ability to participate in IBO.
> Known shooters currently have zero control over what happens at IBO, so if IBO is being "taken down" (and it is) it's being done from within without any "help" from known.
> 
> If IBO had never permitted mechanical releases, it would have taken itself down, in the same way IBO is taking itself down now by not allowing rangefinders. You can still shoot fingers if you want, and you can still shoot unknown if you want, but the choice of shooting style must exist because just as archery has evolved past the days where the majority wants to shoot with fingers, it has also evolved past the point where the majority wants to shoot unknown.


I don't disagree but each sanctioning body has to have rules/limitations. Meaning, they have to draw the line somewhere... ASA won't let me shoot my bow without changing my set up because "it's too fast". If I decide to go to an ASA event (hopefully next year), I will have to adjust to meet their rules or stay home. They don't have a 300+ FPS class so, is the ASA excluding people with faster bows??? I don't think they are... It's a "their house, their rules" kinda thing. 

If enough people stop going to IBO events, they will have to revisit their policy or cease to exist. Personally, I've only done 2 IBO events and Zero ASA events. I've heard so many people getting upset over "Known/Unknown" classes, it's almost like the mechanical vs fixed broadhead or the 9mm vs .45 debates.... people almost coming to blows with their FRIENDS over this topic... Is it really that important???


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I don't disagree but each sanctioning body has to have rules/limitations. Meaning, they have to draw the line somewhere... ASA won't let me shoot my bow without changing my set up because "it's too fast". If I decide to go to an ASA event (hopefully next year), I will have to adjust to meet their rules or stay home. They don't have a 300+ FPS class so, is the ASA excluding people with faster bows??? I don't think they are... It's a "their house, their rules" kinda thing.
> 
> If enough people stop going to IBO events, they will have to revisit their policy or cease to exist. Personally, I've only done 2 IBO events and Zero ASA events. I've heard so many people getting upset over "Known/Unknown" classes, it's almost like the mechanical vs fixed broadhead or the 9mm vs .45 debates.... people almost coming to blows with their FRIENDS over this topic... Is it really that important???


Well, there's obviously a "difference" because IBO and ASA are moving in very different directions with regard to attendance. As for the speed limits, every major archery organizations has them except IBO, because unlike IBO, everyone else realizes archery should not be a contest decided by something the competitor has no control over (ie draw length). ASA is very much inline all the other organizations with regard to equipment, it's IBO that's out on the fringe, and that's part of why they are struggling.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

nestly said:


> Well, there's obviously a "difference" because IBO and ASA are moving in very different directions with regard to attendance. As for the speed limits, every major archery organizations has them except IBO, because unlike IBO, everyone else realizes archery should not be a contest decided by something the competitor has no control over (ie draw length). ASA is very much inline all the other organizations with regard to equipment, it's IBO that's out on the fringe, and that's part of why they are struggling.


I'm NOT defending IBO and you didn't really answer my question.... Is it really "that important" that IBO follow everyone else??? There are other options out there, if you want to shoot "Known" then shoot ASA or IAA and don't give the IBO any of your $$$. If they "die off" because they won't allow a Known class, that's on them. But, I still don't see why this is such a sensitive topic that friends need to be physically separated over?!?!?!?! 

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if IBO added a Known class, that's what I would shoot next year.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I'm NOT defending IBO and you didn't really answer my question.... Is it really "that important" that IBO follow everyone else??? There are other options out there, if you want to shoot "Known" then shoot ASA or IAA and don't give the IBO any of your $$$. If they "die off" because they won't allow a Known class, that's on them. But, I still don't see why this is such a sensitive topic that friends need to be physically separated over?!?!?!?!
> 
> Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if IBO added a Known class, that's what I would shoot next year.


It's not about "following" the others, it's about doing what makes sense and keeping up with trends in archery... IBO does a fairly terrible job at both (at least with NTC series)
It's also not quite as simple as "just go shoot ASA if you want to shoot known", there's a geographic component that has to be considered. IBO is stuck in the mud in so many ways. They actually have made a fair number of changes recently, but they keep falling on their face because they aren't actually in tune with what archers are saying/wanting. This isn't a recent occurance, IBO has not been keeping up with the needs of competitive archers for a very long time, which is why I don't have any faith the are suddenly going to get it together after 20-25 years.


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

nestly said:


> What are you talking about? You (IBO) absolutely are denying known shooters the ability to participate in IBO.
> Known shooters currently have zero control over what happens at IBO, so if IBO is being "taken down" (and it is) it's being done from within without any "help" from known.
> 
> If IBO had never permitted mechanical releases, it would have taken itself down, in the same way IBO is taking itself down now by not allowing rangefinders. You can still shoot fingers if you want, and you can still shoot unknown if you want, but the choice of shooting style must exist because just as archery has evolved past the days where the majority wants to shoot with fingers, it has also evolved past the point where the majority wants to shoot unknown.


And the ASA is taking away walks through the woods, up and down hills, as normal hunters do. I would agree to have a known yardage to get more people, but I would not shoot it. If you're pissed at IBO, then go to ASA shoots. Also, I'm sure the economy has a lot to do with attendance over the past few years. We can't all afford all this travel and expense.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

arrowblaster said:


> And the ASA is taking away walks through the woods, up and down hills, as normal hunters do.


If you prefer a walk through course to a walk-back course, that's a legitimate preference, but there's no similarities between 3D and hunting. Whether walk through or walk back, groups of people mill around in the outdoors with no regard for concealment, scent, or noise until they happen upon a metal stake, at which point they take turns shooting an arrow at a piece of foam staked to the ground with a couple of steel rods. Afterward, they proceed toward the chunk of foam and record the score of each arrow based on rings molded into the foam, they don't throw it on ground, tag it, gut it, and drag it back to their truck. In no way does any 3D I've ever shot remotely resemble any type of hunting I've ever done.



arrowblaster said:


> If you're pissed at IBO, then go to ASA shoots.


I think you're overlooking the fairly obvious matter of geography. If you live in the "south" you have a 3D tournament series in the "south" which accommodates both the archers that want to shoot known 3D, and those that want to shoot unknown 3D. If you live in the "north" you have a 3D tournament series in the "north" but it only accommodates archers that want to shoot unknown 3D. Do you seriously not understand that southern shooters have a choice between known and unknown at the series that's in their geographic region, and northern shooters do not have that same choice. They have to travel out of there geographic region to shoot known. 



arrowblaster said:


> Also, I'm sure the economy has a lot to do with attendance over the past few years. We can't all afford all this travel and expense.


I don't see how you can blame the economy when ASA has maintained or grown in attendance in the same time IBO has seen a decline in attendance of roughly 2/3rds. If there's an economic component to it at all, it's that if you shoot well at ASA Pro-Am, you can come home with a wallet that's thicker than when you left, and if you shoot well at IBO NTC leg, you're still going to have a thinner wallet than if you had just stayed home.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

I love shooting unknown but I stick to classes that are 40 yards and under because I don't care to practice judging that much. I use my range finder at some local shoots (for fun) and shoot the 50 yard max stakes most of the time and I know many others that do the same because we don't want to get that involved with the yardage game but enjoy shooting longer distances. Nothing wrong with that... there is something wrong with the IBO not doing that. I would hate to see the IBO go under.


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

nestly said:


> If you prefer a walk through course to a walk-back course, that's a legitimate preference, but there's no similarities between 3D and hunting. Whether walk through or walk back, groups of people mill around in the outdoors with no regard for concealment, scent, or noise until they happen upon a metal stake, at which point they take turns shooting an arrow at a piece of foam staked to the ground with a couple of steel rods. Afterward, they proceed toward the chunk of foam and record the score of each arrow based on rings molded into the foam, they don't throw it on ground, tag it, gut it, and drag it back to their truck. In no way does any 3D I've ever shot remotely resemble any type of hunting I've ever done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think economy has a great deal to do with IBO's decline and ASA's popularity, the differences between the two dont end with known/unknown, folks can also see the great disparity in the payback structures. IBO has changed theirs recently but are still nowhere close.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I'm NOT defending IBO and you didn't really answer my question.... Is it really "that important" that IBO follow everyone else??? There are other options out there, if you want to shoot "Known" then shoot ASA or IAA and don't give the IBO any of your $$$. * If they "die off" because they won't allow a Known class, that's on them.* But, I still don't see why this is such a sensitive topic that friends need to be physically separated over?!?!?!?!
> 
> Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if IBO added a Known class, that's what I would shoot next year.


I don't want IBO to die off. On the contrary, I'd love to shoot some of their events, and I would shoot them if they provided me the option of shooting known distance in my age group. Many of their shoots are much closer to where I live in fact. Other things keeping me away are no shotgun starts, courses too long when they're shooting on hilly terrain, and not consistently busting buddy groups.

I wish IBO and all who like it the best of luck. It shouldn't be a competition between the organizations.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

carlosii said:


> I don't want IBO to die off. On the contrary, I'd love to shoot some of their events, and I would shoot them if they provided me the option of shooting known distance in my age group. Many of their shoots are much closer to where I live in fact. Other things keeping me away are no shotgun starts, courses too long when they're shooting on hilly terrain, and not consistently busting buddy groups.
> 
> I wish IBO and all who like it the best of luck. It shouldn't be a competition between the organizations.


I don't want them to die off either.... I have enjoyed both IBO events that I shot very much. I didn't think the courses were too long, half of the club shoots in my area are much longer!!! I can't speak about busting buddy groups consistently but I know they busted up my buddies and I when we shot the World Qualifier and again at Worlds.... 

I'm not opposed to shooting Known distance, I'd probably shoot that class if it existed... But, I'm also not gonna throw a tantrum every time this topic is discussed. (I've seen it here on AT, Facebook and in real life) I don't see why people get so upset that an organization won't change to suit them. When I go to a shoot, I follow the rules the host/sanctioning body set. If I don't like a rule, I just don't go to that shoot. I choose to give my hard earned $$$ to someone else.

There are lots of rules that I think would benefit me greatly. I'd like to use a movable sight in Hunter Class but most host clubs/leagues have rules against it and I end up shooting Open class against guys with magnification and all manner of stabilizers. The point I'm trying to make is, instead of getting into "internet wars" or "punching your buddy in the mouth" a better way to bring on the change you want is to get involved with the organization and work your way up the food chain until you are in a position to make the change. No amount of FB trolling (a guy I know has been blocked from the IBO FB page multiple times and has lost field staff/sponsorships because of it) or arguing here is gonna get the IBO to change based on the opinions of people outside of the organization. Who knows?? if you bring in enough people who want a Known class, you could apply pressure from within!!!

Being new to competition at this level, I can't compare the past to the present.... but at Worlds last week, it didn't appear that IBO had any issues finding people to participate.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

HalonShooter60X said:


> But, I'm also not gonna throw a tantrum every time this topic is discussed. (I've seen it here on AT, Facebook and in real life) I don't see why people get so upset that an organization won't change to suit them. When I go to a shoot, I follow the rules the host/sanctioning body set. If I don't like a rule, I just don't go to that shoot. I choose to give my hard earned $$$ to someone else.


OK, so you just described exactly why IBO attendance continues to fall. They have rules and format that many don't like... so they eventually just get tired of it and stop shooting IBO. The reason we "throw tantrums" is because IBO is the only place for those of us interested in competitive 3D that's geographically favorable, but their rules and format aren't really that appealing to many competitive 3D shooters. We WANT to shoot, but not under crappy rules, and we're not going to travel long distance and/or spend a night in a hotel to shoot in class when the cash prizes won't even cover travel expenses and registration fees. 

It's not about one organization vs another organization, it's about providing a legitimate competitive environment for those who what to shoot legitimate competition. No one is trying to turn IBO into ASA, we just want IBO to start being adaptive to the changing trends in archery.

A friend of mine made a facebook post asking whether people would shoot IBO if they added known classes. Based on just that post, there were 6 or 7 current or past professionals that said they would return to IBO if there were Known classes for them, and one major manufacturer (TruBall) said they would consider taking their trailer back to IBO if known was added. Aside from those comments, there were enough other "Yes" replies in that post alone to boost current IBO NTC attendance by about 15%. Would ASA, NFAA, WA care about a potential 15% boost in attendance? ... YOU BET THEY WOULD. Does IBO care?.... mmmm... we'll see.



HalonShooter60X said:


> Being new to competition at this level, I can't compare the past to the present.... but at Worlds last week, it didn't appear that IBO had any issues finding people to participate.


As I said before, IBO worlds is not like NTC legs. 900-1000 shooters is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but by comparison, ASA Worlds was nearly twice that. IBO Worlds is a good format and had reasonable payouts so I would have attended except I WILL NOT support IBO (not at the national level, and not at the local qualifier level) until IBO starts paying more regard to shooter and vendor requests. Known is not the only issue I have with IBO


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Wonder why Tru Ball won't attend IBO.


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## TankerSarge (Jan 7, 2011)

carlosii said:


> Wonder why Tru Ball won't attend IBO.


They were at everyone. I don’t know what he’s talking about. 


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

carlosii said:


> Wonder why Tru Ball won't attend IBO.


They were at Worlds last week....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

HalonShooter60X said:


> They were at Worlds last week....


I don't know how many times I have to say this... IBO World Championship format does not resemble IBO Triple Crown series.



TankerSarge said:


> They were at everyone. I don’t know what he’s talking about.


Link to the Facebook thread ---> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1942304709166938&id=100001622835209
Ben Summers ---> https://www.facebook.com/bensummers1 - VP TRU Ball Release and Axcel Sights


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## TankerSarge (Jan 7, 2011)

nestly said:


> I don't know how many times I have to say this... IBO World Championship format does not resemble IBO Triple Crown series.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I’m telling you I shot every IBO leg this year and Brandon had the trailer there selling stuff in the vendor area. 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

The post didn't indicate whether they did or did not in 2018, and neither did I, but IMO there's a pretty clear message there about the temperature of TRU Ball regarding it's future level of support for IBO NTC if nothing changes.


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

nestly said:


> I don't know how many times I have to say this... IBO World Championship format does not resemble IBO Triple Crown series.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If IBO wanted a known yardage class they would have one. They don't want one. ASA has a known class for people who want that to go shoot that way. Be happy about ASA and lets stop trying to change IBO into ASA. Nothing wrong with having two different organizations.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Laars said:


> *If IBO wanted a known yardage class they would have one*.


"Who" is the IBO? The people that sit on the board, or the members?

I challenge you to find anything on the IBO website or mission statement that would support denying bowhunters that want to use rangefinders the opportunity to participate. IBO has a class for Cross-bows, you gonna suggest that allowing crossbows in IBO competition is more pro-bowhunting than allowing rangefinders?


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

nestly said:


> "Who" is the IBO? The people that sit on the board, or the members?
> 
> I challenge you to find anything on the IBO website or mission statement that would support denying bowhunters that want to use rangefinders the opportunity to participate. IBO has a class for Cross-bows, you gonna suggest that allowing crossbows in IBO competition is more pro-bowhunting than allowing rangefinders?


Who is the IBO. The members, and we don't want a known yardage class.

Right from the Rules book. 

C. Binoculars and Rangefinders
1.* An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to judge yardage without the
assistance of range finding devices or assistance from others.* Therefore, rangefinders and other 
devices that may be used to calculate yardage to the target are prohibited. An archer may not use 
parts of his or her body, the bow, or any other accessories or equipment to calculate yardage. 
Archers using adjustable sights may not adjust their sight elevation after drawing the bow and 
sighting the target. Any mark on otherwise legal binoculars that could be construed as a reference
point for range finding is prohibited.

IBO is about shooting and judging yardage. "An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to judge yardage without the
assistance of range finding devices" How much clearer do you really need it...... IBO will never have a known yardage division. You have ASA, shoot that.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

That's a rule put in place by the people that make rules.. that has nothing to do with Bowhunting or the purpose of the IBO. (International Bowhunters Organization)

That "rule" could just as easily read:
* An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to shoot without the aid of mechanical advantage*
or 
*An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to shoot without the assistance of a bowsight*
or
* An integral part of IBO 3-D competition is the archer’s ability to shoot while standing on one foot*

"IBO" can make any rule they want, the question is whether it's beneficial to the organization or bowhunters at large, and neither of those questions can objectively be answered affirmatively with regard to known 3D.

IBO is dying, and it would seem that some would rather see that happen, than accept that they are clinging to old-school mentality that is hurting IBO as a whole. Nobody is suggesting that known should replace unknown, just offer archers and bowhunters the choice, just as they offer a choice between recurve and compound, and fingers or release, and moveable vs fixed, or X-bow vs vertical bow. 

Other than rangefinders, what other item is commonly used and universally legal for bowhunting, yet is strictly banned from any/all IBO competition?


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

The members of the IBO strongly believe judging yardage is a part of bow hunting. That belief isn't going to chance anytime soon. Its why its in the rules. There is no argument. IBO wants you to judge yardage and shoot if your going to compete in an IBO tournament. I personally shoot IBO because there are no known yardage classes. Its why I'm a member. 

You have the option of shooting ASA. Your welcome to shoot ASA with your range finder. If you want to shoot IBO, leave it in your case, and come shoot. Maybe you'll actually see why we enjoy the complete 3D game of shooting and judging yardage. Its actually way more fun than shooting at known targets. Known yardage is like taking a math test, and they do all the work for you and give you the answers. You just sign your name at the top of the page, and turn it in. I don't find that rewarding at all. So if you want to shoot IBO with us, try judging yardage. If you don't want to do that, don't come. No one is forcing you to shoot IBO. Stop trying to force us to accommodate you. 

I can't think of one IBO officer or state rep that I've met, that is in favor of having a known yardage class. Not one. The IBO members I know and shoot with are also not in favor of a known class. So maybe IBO is not for you. That's fine. Its not for everyone. You have the bigger better ASA shoots to go to that have exactly what you want. That should make you very happy. Enjoy ASA.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Laars said:


> The members of the IBO strongly believe judging yardage is a part of bow hunting. That belief isn't going to chance anytime soon. Its why its in the rules. There is no argument. IBO wants you to judge yardage and shoot if your going to compete in an IBO tournament. I personally shoot IBO because there are no known yardage classes. Its why I'm a member.
> 
> You have the option of shooting ASA. Your welcome to shoot ASA with your range finder. If you want to shoot IBO, leave it in your case, and come shoot. Maybe you'll actually see why we enjoy the complete 3D game of shooting and judging yardage. Its actually way more fun than shooting at known targets. Known yardage is like taking a math test, and they do all the work for you and give you the answers. You just sign your name at the top of the page, and turn it in. I don't find that rewarding at all. So if you want to shoot IBO with us, try judging yardage. If you don't want to do that, don't come. No one is forcing you to shoot IBO. Stop trying to force us to accommodate you.
> 
> I can't think of one IBO officer or state rep that I've met, that is in favor of having a known yardage class. Not one. The IBO members I know and shoot with are also not in favor of a known class. So maybe IBO is not for you. That's fine. Its not for everyone. You have the bigger better ASA shoots to go to that have exactly what you want. That should make you very happy. Enjoy ASA.


You don't have a single clue what you're talking about, I've shot way more unknown 3D than known. I shot all the IBO's and all the ASA's for many years, I've won at IBO NTC, and I've twice shot in the finals at IBO Worlds. I still believe unknown is a higher level of 3D and a more "pure" form of 3D, but I also recognize that it's not for everyone, and it's not even for the majority, not even in "IBO country", as evidenced by IBO's NTC attendance which is pathetic compared to what IBO NTC used to draw and what ASA still gets. Don't forget that ASA used to be strictly unknown as well, and they have/had the same opposition to known that IBO has, but all things considered, furthering 3D is more important than clinging to outdated rules that only reduce participation. Will there be people that leave IBO out of pure spite and hatred of known shooters when it happens, absolutely, just like there was in ASA, but so be it, the sport will be larger and stronger when it's inclusive rather than exclusive. 

Also, there's a topic here from a couple years ago where someone present in the meetings said every year the biggest item of discussion is Known, and IBO leadership (as a whole, not just the high profile individuals) is somewhat open to adding Known classes when/if they are able to work out the logistics. I realize that's a high percentage of BS and mostly just language meant to appease, but It's gonna happen eventually, so get your hankie ready.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Known will be the death of 3D. lain:


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

sagecreek said:


> Known will be the death of 3D. lain:


You mean the same kind of "death" known brought to ASA in the form of higher 3D attendance? As best I can tell, the only form of competitive archery that's dying in the US is the one that's strictly unknown.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

nestly said:


> You mean the same kind of "death" known brought to ASA in the form of higher 3D attendance? As best I can tell, the only form of competitive archery that's dying in the US is the one that's strictly unknown.


You are right. It has worked well for the ASA and will continue to do so. But it's killing 3D. Known yardage is not 3D. It's another game, I'll call it 2D. 

I'll explain my comment a little. I'm a range owner and a die hard 3Der. I put my life into it and really enjoy every aspect of the sport. I have a good time setting up a range and try to make it deceiving on a couple of shots, which is fun from time to time. It makes a true 3Der a better 3Der if he can figure these shots out and make a good shot. Now you have the known 3D guys come along and they click it. Yep, click it. That's all it takes. So, me, along with every other old tired worn out guy setting the ranges, thinks what's the purpose of doing all this for someone that really doesn't appreciate it. It's hard to get anyone to work anymore or volunteer their time. I know everyone is stretched thin, but what is going to happen when all of these old guys quit putting in the time to run these local shoots just because it's not fun for them anymore?

Disclaimer: I appreciate each and every one of my known distance shooters that supports the club.


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

Your right. If they change the IBO and add a known class, I stop shooting IBO, and only compete in GSB shoots(Granite State Bowhunter). Good thing that wont be happening anytime soon.


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

Maybe they should have more TAC shoots. Some of enjoy shooting bows, no matter what venue and how far/close. But I'm sure some will argue this.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

arrowblaster said:


> Maybe they should have more TAC shoots. Some of enjoy shooting bows, no matter what venue and how far/close. But I'm sure some will argue this.


Those look like fun.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

arrowblaster said:


> Maybe they should have more TAC shoots. Some of enjoy shooting bows, no matter what venue and how far/close. But I'm sure some will argue this.


The TAC was a blast!!!! Take plenty of arrows and be prepared to shoot 100+ yards!!!!


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

arrowblaster said:


> Maybe they should have more TAC shoots. Some of enjoy shooting bows, no matter what venue and how far/close. But I'm sure some will argue this.


That sounds like fun. :happy1:

Only argument I have is people trying to change one organization to be exactly like another one. If one has what you want, go shoot it. Leave the other one alone.:closed_2:


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Laars said:


> That sounds like fun. :happy1:
> 
> Only argument I have is people trying to change one organization to be exactly like another one. If one has what you want, go shoot it. Leave the other one alone.:closed_2:


NOT TRUE.

Relaxing the rangefinding restriction in a couple of classes is all that needs to be done. If you really want to see IBO expand, don't make the NTC look like ASA, make it look like IBO Worlds, plus give known shooters a class to shoot.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Laars said:


> Your right. If they change the IBO and add a known class, I stop shooting IBO, and only compete in GSB shoots(Granite State Bowhunter). Good thing that wont be happening anytime soon.


No big deal three other guys would take your place in known.


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

loujo61 said:


> No big deal three other guys would take your place in known.





nestly said:


> NOT TRUE.
> 
> Relaxing the rangefinding restriction in a couple of classes is all that needs to be done. If you really want to see IBO expand, don't make the NTC look like ASA, make it look like IBO Worlds, plus give known shooters a class to shoot.


How about the Patriots......... Think they will win the Superbowl this year?

HalonShooter60X - You owe me for this.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Laars said:


> Who is the IBO. The members, and we don't want a known yardage class.
> 
> Right from the Rules book.
> 
> ...


Just 2 years ago there were over 500 signatures of ‘members’ on a petition that mysteriously was ‘misplaced’ when sent to the BOD for their annual meeting. Many manufacturers and sponsors of the IBO events were also part of those signatures. So the ‘members’ asked and the BOD stuck their heads in the sand again, blatantly ignoring the people who pay the bills. I can’t understand how bringing in hundreds of new shooters could be a bad thing. 
Just one year before that a petition with way less signatures got approved for a Pro Hunter class, which has had a whopping dozen or so competitors. That is some good business sense there! Wonder how that one didn’t get ‘misplaced’?
A lot of credit has been given to the IBO that they are really putting on some nice shoots lately. Let’s not be mistaken and give the credit to the folks working their tails off to manage these events, they are the ones keeping the IBO from flatlining. Bringing in those extra couple hundred shooters sure would bring some more profitability to those putting out the effort. So again, how can that be a bad thing?


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Wow a lot has been laid out since I posted on this thread! I shot known in ASA for the first time this season in order to just focus on getting my shot back after 4 years off, neck surgery and a new knee. Tough competition with so many great pure shooters in my senior known division. I never smelled the top 10 this year. But hey made great improvements. I went to Snowshoe because it was 50 minutes from my farm. Had a great time and actually enjoyed judging yardage again. I'll play either game! I just love archery, hunting, and competing. This is supposed to be FUN. Not a single guy on this thread is going to feed his family and build a nest egg shooting the IBO or ASA. I'm thankful I can shoot again with my new neck and knee and enjoy the fellowship of the great people I have met in both organizations. I will play both games with equal enthusiasm and lack of prejudice. Will probably shoot the entire IBO series next year - but just because its a LOT closer on average to me. If they were both sort of close- I'd shoot both of them- and probably really piss my wife off like never before :wink:


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Those look like fun.


They are! Everyone should try it once, except one who would want to change it. Oh. I forgot, you can use a rangefinder. Need it for those 100+ yard shots.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm not that familiar with the structure of IBO. I shot it when Ken was still the "manager" so to speak. Who replaced him?

If IBO is run by the members, when and where is the annual business meeting? How do you get to vote on issues? Where can the financial reports be viewed? What state is it incorporated in?

If I knew more about it I might want to become a member again.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

carlosii said:


> I'm not that familiar with the structure of IBO. I shot it when Ken was still the "manager" so to speak. Who replaced him?
> 
> If IBO is run by the members, when and where is the annual business meeting? How do you get to vote on issues? Where can the financial reports be viewed? What state is it incorporated in?
> 
> ...


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Just 2 years ago there were over 500 signatures of ‘members’ on a petition that mysteriously was ‘misplaced’ when sent to the BOD for their annual meeting. Many manufacturers and sponsors of the IBO events were also part of those signatures. So the ‘members’ asked and the BOD stuck their heads in the sand again, blatantly ignoring the people who pay the bills. I can’t understand how bringing in hundreds of new shooters could be a bad thing.
> Just one year before that a petition with way less signatures got approved for a Pro Hunter class, which has had a whopping dozen or so competitors. That is some good business sense there! Wonder how that one didn’t get ‘misplaced’?
> A lot of credit has been given to the IBO that they are really putting on some nice shoots lately. Let’s not be mistaken and give the credit to the folks working their tails off to manage these events, they are the ones keeping the IBO from flatlining. Bringing in those extra couple hundred shooters sure would bring some more profitability to those putting out the effort. So again, how can that be a bad thing?


this!


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Just 2 years ago there were over 500 signatures of ‘members’ on a petition that mysteriously was ‘misplaced’ when sent to the BOD for their annual meeting. Many manufacturers and sponsors of the IBO events were also part of those signatures. So the ‘members’ asked and the BOD stuck their heads in the sand again, blatantly ignoring the people who pay the bills. I can’t understand how bringing in hundreds of new shooters could be a bad thing.
> Just one year before that a petition with way less signatures got approved for a Pro Hunter class, which has had a whopping dozen or so competitors. That is some good business sense there! Wonder how that one didn’t get ‘misplaced’?
> A lot of credit has been given to the IBO that they are really putting on some nice shoots lately. Let’s not be mistaken and give the credit to the folks working their tails off to manage these events, they are the ones keeping the IBO from flatlining. Bringing in those extra couple hundred shooters sure would bring some more profitability to those putting out the effort. So again, how can that be a bad thing?





allxs said:


> this!


Yup, that about says it all.

Yes, it would take more effort to come up with a plan to set up the known courses and qualifiers, but wouldn't it be worth it?


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

carlosii said:


> I'm not that familiar with the structure of IBO. I shot it when Ken was still the "manager" so to speak. Who replaced him?
> 
> If IBO is run by the members, when and where is the annual business meeting? How do you get to vote on issues? Where can the financial reports be viewed? What state is it incorporated in?
> 
> If I knew more about it I might want to become a member again.


Brian Marcum is now the dictator.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

arrowblaster said:


> Brian Marcum is now the dictator.


Thanks. Any information as to how to get hold of him?

It's my understanding that the clubs that host the Triple Crown keep most of the money. Is that true?


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## happycamper08 (May 7, 2016)

bowjoe1800 said:


> happycamper08 said:
> 
> 
> > Not to single you out, as many others have said the same, but why do you need the crutch of known yardage? If you need to know the distance wouldn't field archery be more to your liking?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Tactical-N8 (Feb 14, 2016)

nochance said:


> Like i said AT should add another forum


Nochance, Are you suggesting that AT should add a specific forum just for people that want to ***** about the IBO? If so, then I'm in complete agreement. If you don't like it, don't go. Soccer would be a lot easier for me if I didn't have to run. But I don't ***** about it, I just don't play.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Tactical-N8 said:


> Nochance, Are you suggesting that AT should add a specific forum just for people that want to ***** about the IBO? If so, then I'm in complete agreement. If you don't like it, don't go. Soccer would be a lot easier for me if I didn't have to run. But I don't ***** about it, I just don't play.


:set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2:

Ditto on the soccer.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Laars said:


> How about the Patriots......... Think they will win the Superbowl this year?
> 
> HalonShooter60X - You owe me for this.


No....I don't think the Patriots will win the Super Bowl this year. I'm hoping the Eagles repeat!!!!



vahylander said:


> Wow a lot has been laid out since I posted on this thread! I shot known in ASA for the first time this season in order to just focus on getting my shot back after 4 years off, neck surgery and a new knee. Tough competition with so many great pure shooters in my senior known division. I never smelled the top 10 this year. But hey made great improvements. I went to Snowshoe because it was 50 minutes from my farm. Had a great time and actually enjoyed judging yardage again. I'll play either game! I just love archery, hunting, and competing. * This is supposed to be FUN. Not a single guy on this thread is going to feed his family and build a nest egg shooting the IBO or ASA.* I'm thankful I can shoot again with my new neck and knee and enjoy the fellowship of the great people I have met in both organizations. I will play both games with equal enthusiasm and lack of prejudice. Will probably shoot the entire IBO series next year - but just because its a LOT closer on average to me. If they were both sort of close- I'd shoot both of them- and probably really piss my wife off like never before :wink:


This ^^^!!!


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

carlosii said:


> Thanks. Any information as to how to get hold of him?
> 
> It's my understanding that the clubs that host the Triple Crown keep most of the money. Is that true?


yes, that is true.IBO sets up defense courses to practice on and make money. As far as getting in touch with Marcum, good luck. Try calling IBO headquarters.


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

carlosii said:


> Thanks. Any information as to how to get hold of him?
> 
> It's my understanding that the clubs that host the Triple Crown keep most of the money. Is that true?


Yep, if you consider $20 per shooter "most of the money" then yes. 

For cutting all of the lanes, setting all of the targets, pulling all of the targets, and everything else that goes into hosting an event.

I think clubs would gladly take less per shooter if somehow they could draw twice as many shooters.


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

HalonShooter60X said:


> No....I don't think the Patriots will win the Super Bowl this year. I'm hoping the Eagles repeat!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> This ^^^!!!


I thought we needed a change in topic, and the only thing that gets people worked up more then Known yardage is the New England Patriots. I still cant believe the Eagles beat us in the super bowl, but you can't win them all. After last Thursday night, the eagles might have a quarterback issue. Nick Foles took a wicked stinger to his shoulder. Hope he can come back from that.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Laars said:


> I thought we needed a change in topic, and the only thing that gets people worked up more then Known yardage is the New England Patriots. I still cant believe the Eagles beat us in the super bowl, but you can't win them all. After last Thursday night, the eagles might have a quarterback issue. Nick Foles took a wicked stinger to his shoulder. Hope he can come back from that.


He's OK.... He was "full go" at practice yesterday and did 50/50 split with Wentz and the 1st team offense. (at least according to Facebook) I also can't believe we beat the Tom Brady and the Pats in the Super Bowl...I'm still in shock!!!!


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Tactical-N8 said:


> Nochance, Are you suggesting that AT should add a specific forum just for people that want to ***** about the IBO? If so, then I'm in complete agreement. If you don't like it, don't go. Soccer would be a lot easier for me if I didn't have to run. But I don't ***** about it, I just don't play.


Yes, I've suggested it a few times. I would have no problem if IBO added known classes and kept the unknown. But i think many on here get mad because others enjoy the IBO and expect everyone to quit. and as I've said before, the people at the tent have mixed up the groups and if by chance i was in the same group as my friend, we would have 2 other strangers in the group. I'm sure it happens but some on here some think just because they got beat it must have been all friends in one group pencil pushing. perhaps we should let this topic rest and bring back the umbrella argument or non pro shooters wearing manufacturers jerseys or some other big topic


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Now is your chance guys, IBO on facebook is looking for feedback


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

nochance said:


> Now is your chance guys, IBO on facebook is looking for feedback


Beat me to it.... I was just coming here to post this very thing.... but I'll include the link.

https://www.facebook.com/ibohunt/


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Added my comments over there. Hope the IBO listens. Ill shoot either way, but if they add known, their numbers and influence with vendors will go up.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

At the current rate, there will soon be more comments in favor of known classes than the attendance at an IBO leg. IBO being what it is, it will probably ignore them all and takes as it's major challenge for 2019 an issue with 10-15 comments instead.


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## TankerSarge (Jan 7, 2011)

nestly said:


> At the current rate, there will soon be more comments in favor of known classes than the attendance at an IBO leg. IBO being what it is, it will probably ignore them all and takes as it's major challenge for 2019 an issue with 10-15 comments instead.











You always have something negative to say. Your the type of shooter that ruins a peer group with complaining. It looks like the IBO is actually trying to take steps forward and it’s still not good enough. SMH 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

TankerSarge said:


> You always have something negative to say. Your the type of shooter that ruins a peer group with complaining. It looks like the IBO is actually trying to take steps forward and it’s still not good enough. SMH


... or maybe you're the type of person that would like to see known implemented in such a way that it fails and ultimately gets abandoned (like classes with option to shoot for money). That's exactly what would happen if IBO does a 50/50 class. IBO needs new shooters, and it's not going to get them by making a class where shooters still have to judge targets, there's no growth potential in a 50/50 class. I'm sure it hurts your feelings to see that you're so much in the minority about the issue of adding known classes to IBO, but that says more about your ability to be objective than it does about others. .... IBO keeps landing on their face because when they do made a change, they tend only do it half-*****ed. If you're going to do known, you have to fully commit to it and treat the shooters that choose to shoot it as equal.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

If they ignore this plea it will be a real head shaker.


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## TankerSarge (Jan 7, 2011)

nestly said:


> ... or maybe you're the type of person that would like to see known implemented in such a way that it fails and ultimately gets abandoned (like classes with option to shoot for money). That's exactly what would happen if IBO does a 50/50 class. IBO needs new shooters, and it's not going to get them by making a class where shooters still have to judge targets, there's no growth potential in a 50/50 class. I'm sure it hurts your feelings to see that you're so much in the minority about the issue of adding known classes to IBO, but that says more about your ability to be objective than it does about others. .... IBO keeps landing on their face because when they do made a change, they tend only do it half-*****ed. If you're going to do known, you have to fully commit to it and treat the shooters that choose to shoot it as equal.


I’ve never said I wasn’t for known yardage. I am for anything that helps it grow. You missed my point the IBO could give you a shooting contract free shooter fees and pay your travel for the next 10 years and you will say the color of the grass at the venue you wanted wasn’t quite green enough. Stop complaining and be constructive. You can’t do it without taring down. You had to head to ole AT to complain after you gave your .02 on IBO FB. Don’t put words in my mouth I’ve never said I wasn’t for known yardage. I shot the OPA this year just to see a different side of Archery and plan to shoot London KY next year to see how they do things. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

It’s good to see that some manufacturers/sponsors are speaking their piece on the Facebook post. I hope the discussion doesn’t fall on deaf ears as it has in the past. I believe the IBO is seeing the writing on the wall, as I said before maybe it is the industry’s way of saying adapt or fade away..


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

TankerSarge said:


> I’ve never said I wasn’t for known yardage. I am for anything that helps it grow. You missed my point the IBO could give you a shooting contract free shooter fees and pay your travel for the next 10 years and you will say the color of the grass at the venue you wanted wasn’t quite green enough. Stop complaining and be constructive. You can’t do it without taring down. You had to head to ole AT to complain after you gave your .02 on IBO FB. Don’t put words in my mouth I’ve never said I wasn’t for known yardage. I shot the OPA this year just to see a different side of Archery and plan to shoot London KY next year to see how they do things.


I would have the same complaint(s) about IBO whether I was paid or not, and it has nothing to do with the color of the grass at the venue. I do not believe NTC format has enough controls to ensure the competition is fair, I do not believe IBO gives enough back to the shooters, and for the life of me, I can't understand why they will not allow the largest class of 3D shooters (known) to participate in their tournaments. These are not new complaints, and they are not my complaints, IBO has been hearing about these issues (and more) for many years and they continues not to address them adequately enough for the complaints to go away. I assume you read the post (now over 400 comment) so you know that I'm hardly the only one with these concerns, that includes some pros that (presumably) do have their travel expenses and registration fees paid to shoot IBO. They are not asking for the venues to fertilize and water the grass at the venues differently, they are asking for changes to make the events bigger and better by making them more appealing to competitors and vendors, as am I. 
If IBO was doing a "good job" at running their 3D tournaments, they would have kept pace with ASA. Clearly there are problems with the IBO format that IBO has not been addressing properly. I see the 50/50 thing as flypaper for IBO, it's the "easier" class to get passed compared to a legitimate known class, but it's not going to work because it's not going to bring in any known only shooters. At best, the only thing 50% known does is split the existing classes into smaller classes... and too many small classes is already a complaint (as evidenced by the FB post)


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

All I know is its going to be a long hard winter wondering how many people will be in the MBO class at the winter nationals in March, cant wait to get on AT and find out :set1_rolf2:


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> If they ignore this plea it will be a real head shaker.



there would have to be large bucket of crow served at the IBO board meeting for there to be a known distance target at an IBO event in 2019.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

allxs said:


> there would have to be large bucket of crow served at the IBO board meeting for there to be a known distance target at an IBO event in 2019.


They should try the crow...the way their headed their going to go hungry fast.


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

I see a lot of people wanting a shotgun start like the ASA. Asa are set up usually up and down a road usually covering hardly 100 yards. Now in IBO, the courses are long woods walks and diffently to my liking. Now on a 20 target range, if u happen to start on target 10,then u will have to walk bye 9 targets to get to your starting point. then end up on 20 which is sometimes even a different checkout station.Then you have to get back to target 1 to end up your 20 targets on target 9. Then you have to hike out of there. I can hear people *****ing like hell over that. Lot of shooters come on Friday and do all 40 and that won't happen with shotgun starts.
I shoot a little ASA and have been watching my Super Senior Class Results alot.Where there used to be 60-70 Super Seniors in that class, now that Known is in play,the Unknown class has dropped to 20-25 guys and the known class is way bigger. My feeling is that no one wants to work hard at anything anymore or don't have time in this busy world we have created. So its take the easy way out.Everyone is complaining about to many classes,add known and you have double the classes. Give an inch and everyone will want a known class for every class. There use to be 1200 shooters at IBO events with all Unknown. I think the decline is that couples both have to work to make ends meet these days. A lot of shooters just don't have the money and time. I know I have 2 sons that like to shoot.They never make it to IBO events but would like to. There kids are in little leauge,soccer, dance and all sort of things these day.Then finally weekends are for doing things with family and no room for archery except a few local shoots that take a couple hours.
I think for all in charge, this is a really tuff call for them. You surely won't make everyone happy.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

draw29 said:


> I see a lot of people wanting a shotgun start like the ASA. Asa are set up usually up and down a road usually covering hardly 100 yards. Now in IBO, the courses are long woods walks and diffently to my liking. Now on a 20 target range, if u happen to start on target 10,then u will have to walk bye 9 targets to get to your starting point. then end up on 20 which is sometimes even a different checkout station.Then you have to get back to target 1 to end up your 20 targets on target 9. Then you have to hike out of there. I can hear people *****ing like hell over that. Lot of shooters come on Friday and do all 40 and that won't happen with shotgun starts.
> I shoot a little ASA and have been watching my Super Senior Class Results alot.Where there used to be 60-70 Super Seniors in that class, now that Known is in play,the Unknown class has dropped to 20-25 guys and the known class is way bigger. My feeling is that no one wants to work hard at anything anymore or don't have time in this busy world we have created. So its take the easy way out.Everyone is complaining about to many classes,add known and you have double the classes. Give an inch and everyone will want a known class for every class. There use to be 1200 shooters at IBO events with all Unknown. I think the decline is that couples both have to work to make ends meet these days. A lot of shooters just don't have the money and time. I know I have 2 sons that like to shoot.They never make it to IBO events but would like to. There kids are in little leauge,soccer, dance and all sort of things these day.Then finally weekends are for doing things with family and no room for archery except a few local shoots that take a couple hours.
> I think for all in charge, this is a really tuff call for them. You surely won't make everyone happy.


Sage advice right there. lain:


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## TankerSarge (Jan 7, 2011)

draw29 said:


> I see a lot of people wanting a shotgun start like the ASA. Asa are set up usually up and down a road usually covering hardly 100 yards. Now in IBO, the courses are long woods walks and diffently to my liking. Now on a 20 target range, if u happen to start on target 10,then u will have to walk bye 9 targets to get to your starting point. then end up on 20 which is sometimes even a different checkout station.Then you have to get back to target 1 to end up your 20 targets on target 9. Then you have to hike out of there. I can hear people *****ing like hell over that. Lot of shooters come on Friday and do all 40 and that won't happen with shotgun starts.
> I shoot a little ASA and have been watching my Super Senior Class Results alot.Where there used to be 60-70 Super Seniors in that class, now that Known is in play,the Unknown class has dropped to 20-25 guys and the known class is way bigger. My feeling is that no one wants to work hard at anything anymore or don't have time in this busy world we have created. So its take the easy way out.Everyone is complaining about to many classes,add known and you have double the classes. Give an inch and everyone will want a known class for every class. There use to be 1200 shooters at IBO events with all Unknown. I think the decline is that couples both have to work to make ends meet these days. A lot of shooters just don't have the money and time. I know I have 2 sons that like to shoot.They never make it to IBO events but would like to. There kids are in little leauge,soccer, dance and all sort of things these day.Then finally weekends are for doing things with family and no room for archery except a few local shoots that take a couple hours.
> I think for all in charge, this is a really tuff call for them. You surely won't make everyone happy.


From a personal standpoint I agree with you on every point. However when the sponsors, manufacturers, and shooters want something by a overwhelming margin you have to do something. If you Read Rob Kaufholds comments on Facebook (President of Lancaster Archery and on the Board of the ATA) that should speak volumes. Being a leader means making uncomfortable decisions that won’t please everyone. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

draw29 said:


> I see a lot of people wanting a shotgun start like the ASA. Asa are set up usually up and down a road usually covering hardly 100 yards. Now in IBO, the courses are long woods walks and diffently to my liking. Now on a 20 target range, if u happen to start on target 10,then u will have to walk bye 9 targets to get to your starting point. then end up on 20 which is sometimes even a different checkout station.Then you have to get back to target 1 to end up your 20 targets on target 9. Then you have to hike out of there. I can hear people *****ing like hell over that. Lot of shooters come on Friday and do all 40 and that won't happen with shotgun starts.


I agree that "shotgun start" does not work as well on a walk-through course, not to mention that walking down the shooting lanes prior to shooting causes a problem for unknown distance competition. "Tee times" however seem to work reasonably well at IBO worlds, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't work equally as well at NTC legs. It's not ideal, but from a competitive standpoint (which is where all those suggesting shotgun start are coming from), assigned tee times with peer groups are much more "fair" than casual start times.





draw29 said:


> I shoot a little ASA and have been watching my Super Senior Class Results alot.Where there used to be 60-70 Super Seniors in that class, now that Known is in play,the Unknown class has dropped to 20-25 guys and the known class is way bigger. My feeling is that no one wants to work hard at anything anymore or don't have time in this busy world we have created. So its take the easy way out.


Can't you make that same claim for compound vs recurve, sights vs barebow, mechanical release vs fingers, 80% vs 50% letoff, and moveable vs fixed pins? "easier" is a natural progression in everything, not just archery. Most choose the "easiest" route to get the arrow into the target as accurately as possible, and why shouldn't they?. There should be no more mystery about why people are moving away from judging and toward rangefinding than there is about why people moved away from fingers and toward release aids.



draw29 said:


> Everyone is complaining about to many classes,add known and you have double the classes. Give an inch and everyone will want a known class for every class.


Most of the comments about reducing the number of classes are related to the elimination of already tiny classes. I'm personally not in favor of getting rid of shooting styles (ie barebow/trad/fingers/etc) but I don't think you need a different class for adult males that only want to shoot 35 yards, and one for adult males that only want to shoot 40, and one for those that want to shoot 45, and one for those that want to shoot 50. When IBO was getting those 1200+ attendance numbers referenced below) there were basically 3 classes for adult male amateurs shooting compound bows with sights. Fingers, Fixed Pins, and Open. Add to those 1 more class for adult male amateurs shooting known and you're back to when IBO was in it's glory days, plus you're accommodated all the known shooters and greatly reduced the number of classes for each gender and age bracket. Maybe 4 classes is too few for adult male compound shooters, but there's plenty of room to combine existing classes and still have fewer than present after adding a class that will potentially double the number of each gender/age group shooting at IBO events.



draw29 said:


> There use to be 1200 shooters at IBO events with all Unknown. I think the decline is that couples both have to work to make ends meet these days. A lot of shooters just don't have the money and time. I know I have 2 sons that like to shoot.They never make it to IBO events but would like to. There kids are in little leauge,soccer, dance and all sort of things these day.Then finally weekends are for doing things with family and no room for archery except a few local shoots that take a couple hours..


All you have to do is look at the National level Indoor tournaments, or national level ASA to know that attendance problems at IBO are not because of the economy, or work hours, or kids, or school or anything else other than the decisions of IBO leadership. Unless you're suggesting that IBO shooters are generally less well off than all other types of shooters, the difference in attendance falls on the decisions made by the organization. IBO is simply not responsive enough (or wholly unresponsive in some cases) to the needs of the shooters, the vendors, and the manufactures, all of whom they need to be successful. Poor decision making is what's hurt the IBO. After many years, will they suddenly wake up and realize it's not 1993 anymore.... we can only hope.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

TankerSarge said:


> From a personal standpoint I agree with you on every point. However when the sponsors, manufacturers, and shooters want something by a overwhelming margin you have to do something. If you Read Rob Kaufholds comments on Facebook (President of Lancaster Archery and on the Board of the ATA) that should speak volumes. Being a leader means making uncomfortable decisions that won’t please everyone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If they wont listen to Rob Kaufhold- then they are more tone deaf than everyone has already stated. 

You certainly wont make everyone happy- but you can make 4 or 6 people happy for everyone 1 unhappy person. I don't get the argument that adding known classes will reduce the numbers in unknown classes- so what? Thats a selfish, myopic argument. Not one that looks at the overall health of IBO attendance. You pick up probably 3 new shooters for every one thats takes their ball and goes home.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

The Northeast IBO puts on some great shoots, great bunch of reps and great bunch of venues with lots of shooters, very tough courses, too tough (IMO) for novice shooters. Lots of shooters in BBO... many shooters seem to be less interested in judging those long courses. I know a few shooters that would probably attend these shoots if there was a known class, they're not intimidated by shooting 50 yards but know they can't judge accurately that far. There's no shame in that... why bother anyway we now have range finders for that.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

I like the trail course format and creative set ups- very different from the ASA. The IBO should not lose their identity with those cool features. The IBO should not become the "northern ASA". Keep the unique things. Unfortunately, shotgun starts would not work with these trail courses. But hey- small price to pay. Tee times with peer groups would work. We shot the A and C ranges at Worlds in about 3.5 hours- acceptable.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

So apparently the FB post was in preparation for an IBO Board meeting.... and (if I'm reading correctly) open to the IBO membership, if anyone is in the area and interested in attending...


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

nestly said:


> So apparently the FB post was in preparation for an IBO Board meeting.... and (if I'm reading correctly) open to the IBO membership, if anyone is in the area and interested in attending...


There you go! Go tell them you need to be president and straighten this out. :wink: :thumbs_up


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Interesting, the post IBO made asking for input on their FB page is no longer on their Facebook page.... it had 640+ replies as of a couple hours ago.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

nestly said:


> Interesting, the post IBO made asking for input on their FB page is no longer on their Facebook page.... it had 640+ replies as of a couple hours ago.


May have ended up filed with the petition from a few years ago with about as many signatures...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

hrtlnd164 said:


> May have ended up filed with the petition from a few years ago with about as many signatures...


That's what the cynic in me thinks.... just conveniently "lose" all the information that doesn't conform to the boards ideology. TRU Ball/Axcel's Brandon Reyes spent considerable time speaking about the IBO's refusal to adapt, and he mentioned the FB post as well during the most recent Archery Uncensored podcast. 
https://archeryuncensored.podbean.com/e/ep-028-brandon-reyes-tru-ballaxcel-and-a-goat-giveaway/


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## glennx (Oct 7, 2006)

They had there head stuck in the sand for to many years.


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## tsilvers (Nov 16, 2002)

So anything ever happen?


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