# How to tune in bow, Internet edition



## SARASR

I don't believe you can find anything more complete than "THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF ARCHERY" right here on A.T.

go to the general bowhunting section its the second one down.


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## BadgerT

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=626255

This should help you with your Bowtech


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## Neuralgia

I forgot to mention nut & Restorative bolts help... His posts are great and the compilation of his knowledge should be printed as a book. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## nuts&bolts

Neuralgia said:


> I forgot to mention nut & Restorative bolts help... His posts are great and the compilation of his knowledge should be printed as a book.
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


Hello Neuralgia...

I have my new KITCHEN SINK tuning method....

where everything, including the "kitchen sink" will be checked, will be adjusted, fine tuned, if needed.

Start to finish, just follow the steps in order.


The KITCHEN SINK METHOD...

Slightly re-worded.

*STEP by STEP Procedure to...

TUNE SIGHT PINS WINDAGE
and
ARROW REST CENTERSHOT
and
SIDEWAYS NOCK TRAVEL ON THE BOWSTRING
and
BOW DL SETTING.....

THE "KITCHEN SINK" METHOD.*


I have a combo method that checks:

a) draw length setting on the bow
b) arrow rest centershot position
c) sight pins windage position
d) top cam/top axle levelling (fix/check sideways nock travel).


*STEP 1:*

So,
hang a spool of string or any string with a weight on the end,
in front of a target.

Step back 5 feet.
Fire a fletched arrow at the string.
Tweak the sight pins windage a skosh left...a skosh right,
until the fletched arrow TOUCHES or even SPLITS the string material.

You should get this result.




















Then,
we goto the next stage.

Step back 5 feet,
and try again with a bareshaft (arrow with no vanes).

You should get this result.




















If you are a RIGHT HANDED shooter
and
the bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of the string...


*STEP 2:*

Press your bow
and shorten the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
and lengthen the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
and fire a bareshaft again at the hanging string in front of the target...

the bareshaft point of impact should MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...

repeat the shortening of the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (ADD)
and
repeat the lengthening of the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (REMOVE)

*STEP 3:*

IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT CHANGE...
IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT STAYS OFF TO THE RIGHT...

THEN WE HAVE A DRAW LENGTH PROBLEM....ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION
cuz your elbow is too far back
cuz your elbow is behind your head
instead of DIRECTLY behind the arrow...in line behind the arrow

so,
when the elbow is BEHIND YOUR HEAD, 
your release forearm is pointed OFF TO THE RIGHT,
and
your release forearm pulls the bowstring sideways (FAMOUS LEFT PAPER TEAR for right handed shooters)
and
when we have a nock left paper tear,
cuz the bowstring is pulled sideways to the LEFT,
cuz your forearm is pointed off to the right,
then...

the bareshaft goes whereever your forearm is pointed
and the bareshaft misses sideways to the RIGHT of the string.


So if STEP 2 (buss cable leg tuning) has ZERO EFFECT,
we must goto 

*STEP 4.*

SHORTEN the bow DL setting.

Now,
you might need to shorten the bow DL setting a complete 1/2 inch (new module).

Now,
you might need to shorten the bow DL setting less than a complete module replacement...

maybe you need to shorten the bow DL setting only 1/8th inch....maybe only 1/4-inch.

HOW do you shorten a bow DL setting in-between module sizes?...less than 1/2-inch?

FIND the bottom of the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops) and REMOVE twists to INCREASE ATA
and the bow DL will shorten. As you continue to UNTWIST the buss cable, the ATA continues to grow
and the bow DL will continue to shorten.

Keep tweaking the buss cable LONGER, until the bareshaft hits the string, like this...




















So,
stay at 5 feet
and fire fletched arrows at the string
and
fire bare shaft arrows at the string
until both fletched and bareshaft hit the string.


When firing fletched arrows at the string (tweak the sight pins windage)...to adjust
when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable (bottom of the buss cable to make LARGE adjustments for point of impact....missing RIGHT by inches)
when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable legs (shorten left side leg when missing right of the string by tiny amounts IF YOU ARE a RH shooter).


Soon,
your fletched arrows will be touching the string.

Soon,
your bareshafts will also touch the string.

*STEP 5*

The final half of MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING.


Goto any CONVENIENT longer distance...anything longer than 5 feet.
Might be 10 feet.
Might be 19 feet.
Might be 14 yards.
Might be 20 yards.
Might be 60 yards.

Of course the LONGER the better,
but even 19 feet is better than nothing.


Fire fletched arrow groups at a bullseye.
ONLY ADJUST THE ARROW REST, when shooting the convenient LONG RANGE distance.
The goal is to get the arrow group CENTERED around the bullseye.

ARROW GROUP missing LEFT of the bullseye? MOVE arrow rest slightly right.
ARROW GROUP missing RIGHT of the bullseye? MOVE arrow rest slightly left....like driving a car.

TWEAK THE ARROW REST to get the arrow group CENTERED around the LONG DISTANCE bullseye.
Whatever convenient LONG DISTANCE is available to you.

Then,

STEP 6:

Repeat shooting the fletched arrow at the string at 5 FEET.
We want to touch or SPLIT the string.

Might need to MICRO ADJUSt the sight pins windage...this is a fine tuning adjustment.
SPLIT the string fibers at 5 feet. BE PICKY. EACH adjustment we make, we get a tiny bit CLOSER to perfect.


REPEAT STEP 5

LONG RANGE arrow groups at a bullseye.
MICRO adjust the arrow rest to get the arrow group perfectly CENTERED around your bullseye.

REPEAT STEP 6 again.
REPEAT STEP 5 again.

REPEAT STEP 6 again.
REPEAT STEP 5 again.

REPEAT STEP 6 again.
REPEAT STEP 5 again.

You get the idea.

EACH cycle of step 6, then step 5...

maybe the first cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/8th-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/8th-inch...

and then,
maybe the second cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/16th-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/16th-inch...

and then,
maybe the third cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/32nd-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/32nd-inch...

and then,
maybe the 4th cycle, 
we adjust the sight pins...1/64th-inch
we adjust the arrow rest...1/64th-inch...

you get the idea.

You decide how many cycles you want to try.

EACH cycle is a smaller and smaller adjustment.

You decide how TIGHT you want your groups.


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## nuts&bolts

After you complete the "KITCHEN SINK" tuning method...

then,
the final step is CREEP TUNING.


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## P3whlr

good info here


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## bfoot

SARASR said:


> I don't believe you can find anything more complete than "THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF ARCHERY" right here on A.T.
> 
> go to the general bowhunting section its the second one down.


You know that's right!!!


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## Beentown

Tag again. Man I need to get an ink cartridge! Lol

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


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## RRD3

Beentown said:


> Tag again. Man I need to get an ink cartridge! Lol
> 
> Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


Awesome post and reply from nuts&bolts.

I need to get a printer


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## Neuralgia

Hey nuts thanks for all the info. 

You have no clue how much you have helped archers like me, that have to learn empirically since there is almost no one to learn from here (Costa Rica). 

Any advice on cam tuning on bowtech binaries? 

When is the book coming out? 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## bowtechfanatic1

nuts&bolts said:


> After you complete the "KITCHEN SINK" tuning method...
> 
> then,
> the final step is CREEP TUNING.


Can we get an explanation on creep tuning?


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## nuts&bolts

Neuralgia said:


> Hey nuts thanks for all the info.
> 
> You have no clue how much you have helped archers like me, that have to learn empirically since there is almost no one to learn from here (Costa Rica).
> 
> Any advice on cam tuning on bowtech binaries?
> 
> When is the book coming out?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


With any binary cam system....

gotta make sure that both cables are EXACTLY the same tension....same length not good enough.

I like to put both cables on a stretching device,
and then,
I will PLUCK the top cable on the stretcher
and LISTEN to the tone.

Then,
since both cables are on the stretcher at the same time...
then,
I PLUCK the bottom cable on the stretcher.

PLUCK UPPER cable.
PLUCK LOWER cable.

Confirm that both cables are giving off the SAME EXACT tone.

If one cable SOUNDS like a lower note..
then,
I loosen the stretching device,
and add a half twist to the lower sounding cable...

and then bring up the tension nice and tight,
and
then PLUCK the upper cable
and
then PLUCK the lower cable.

LISTEN to the TONE.

Then,
when you have the SAME EXACT TONE...
then,
both cables are the SAME EXACT tension.

Binary cam bows are extemely sensitive to cable pressure.


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## nuts&bolts

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> Can we get an explanation on creep tuning?


The KITCHEN SINK tuning method makes sure that we have the SIDEWAYS nock travel dialed in perfectly.

So,
if the draw length is near perfect...for YOUR body parts,
then,
the yoke cable leg tuning (add or remove twists on the cable end loops on the TOP AXLE)
will get bareshafts and fletched arrows hitting the string at 5 FEET.

When this happens,
broadhead tuning should be very easy.


IF the draw length is too long, even by 1/4-inch,
then NO AMOUNT of yoke cable leg tuning is going to get bareshafts and fletched
hitting the string just 5 FEET away.

IF the draw length is too long, even by 1/4-inch,
then, this causes the elbow on your release side to be too far behind your head,
and then,
your forearm (release side) reaction after you release the arrow,
causes you to PULL THE BOWSTRING sideways...
and
this is usually the reason MOST RIGHT handed shooter
complain about the FAMOUS LEFT PAPER TEAR.


So,
when you are finishing tweaking draw length,
when you are finished with yoke cable tuning (end loops on the top axle)..

then,
you have FINISHED the KITCHEN SINK tuning method,
and
bareshafts and fletched should be hitting the string, just 5 FEET away.


Well,
what happens if the bareshaft is HITTING HIGHER than the fletched arrows????

This is where we proceed to CREEP TUNING.


*CREEP TUNING is where we fix VERTICAL misses.*


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## nuts&bolts

*Creep tuning*

20 yard target

Horizontal strip of duct tape.

Aim at the top edge.

FIRE 3 arrows at the top edge of the duct tape,
with NORMAL PULLING pressure.

Then,
fire 3 more arrows at the top edge of the duct tape,
but this time,
with HARDER THAN NORMAL pulling pressure.











3 ARROWS hit lower.
3 ARROW hit higher.


This means that the cam starting rotation position
is NOT in the sweet spot.

So,
we have to FIND the sweet spot for cam starting rotation position.

We have to FIND the sweet spot for cam starting rotation position,
that provides up with LEVEL nock travel....

which is fancy lingo for 
finding the cam starting rotation position,
that provides us with the FLATTEST arrow groups,
with the MINIMUM amount of vertical misses.


So,
we have TWO CHOICES.

We can make the cam rotate TOWARDS the riser,
we can make the cam rotate AWAY from the riser....

we can make the cam rotate in the direction when we DRAW THE BOW to full draw...
or
we can make the cam rotate in the direction when we LET DOWN THE BOW.


ONE of these directions (ADD or REMOVE a half twist) will make the 6 ARROWS 
hit at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.


*SINGLE CAM BOW...*

find the cable with 3 end loops
(sometimes called the Buss cable)
(sometimes called the Yoke cable)
(sometimes called the "Y" cable)

find the bottom end loop and try ADDING a half twist or a complete twist
and SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

If things got better,
then,
ADDING half twists is what you want to do, 
until you get all 6 ARROWS hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.

If things got worse,
then,
go the other direction,
REMOVING half twists,
until you get all 6 ARROWS hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.



*HYBRID CAM BOW....*

this is a bow with a 3 piece rigging system.

So,
you have a buss cable (cable with 3 end loops)
you have a control cable (cable with 2 end loops)
you have a bowstring.


So,
you have a choice, when CREEP TUNING a hybrid cam bow.

You COULD do the same procedure as the single cam bow,
and only adjust the BUSS CABLE.


I prefer to use the CONTROL CABLE for creep tuning,
cuz
this way, there is LESS effect on the draw length..a much smaller change in draw length,
when CREEP TUNING a hybrid cam bow,
when ADDING or REMOVING the half twist adjustments
to try and get all 6 arrows to HIT at the SAME HEIGHT above the top edge of the duct tape.

*TWEAKING the control cable is a DIRECT ADJUSTMENT to the top cam rotation positionon* a hybrid cam system,
cuz the TOP END of the control cable is attached to a peg on the TOP CAM.


TWEAKING the buss cable is an IN-DIRECT ADJUSTMENT to the top cam rotation position on a hybrid cam system,
cuz the buss cable only CHANGES the ATA...which in-directly causes the top cam to rotate one way or the other way.


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## Blazinpond

Great stuff!


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## Neuralgia

You mention Single and Hybrids... sorry for the stupid question but, Binarys?


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## nuts&bolts

Neuralgia said:


> You mention Single and Hybrids... sorry for the stupid question but, Binarys?


OLD STYLE Binarys have no yoke cable.

The new style Bowtechs, with the "overdrive system" does have a yoke cable.

So,
binary cam bows with NO yoke cable...

obviously, we cannot adjust the tilt angle of the top axle.
So, sideways nock travel is NOT easily adjustable for a bow with no yoke cable.

So,
if you are a right handed shooter,
if you shoot a binary cam bow with NO YOKE cables,
if your broadheads are hitting right of your field points...

ONLY adjustment is to shorten the draw length,
to get the release side forearm MORE in line directly behind the arrow
to reduce SIDEWAYS pull on the bowstring down to zero.

If you are a right handed shooter,
if your broadheads are missing to the right of your field points..
then,
a combination of moving your arrow rest a SKOSH to the right...
a combination of shortening the d-loop length
a combination of taking twists out of the two cables to increase ATA, which reduces brace height


all of these three things will help you dial in your broadhead point of impact with your field points.


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## spmnlvr

It cost me an ink cartridge everytime Nut&bolts writes.

Very grateful for your advice and tips. Thank you


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## unklechuckles19

Tagged for later


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## fletched

nuts&bolts said:


> With any binary cam system....
> 
> gotta make sure that both cables are EXACTLY the same tension....same length not good enough.
> 
> I like to put both cables on a stretching device,
> and then,
> I will PLUCK the top cable on the stretcher
> and LISTEN to the tone.
> 
> Then,
> since both cables are on the stretcher at the same time...
> then,
> I PLUCK the bottom cable on the stretcher.
> 
> PLUCK UPPER cable.
> PLUCK LOWER cable.
> 
> Confirm that both cables are giving off the SAME EXACT tone.
> 
> If one cable SOUNDS like a lower note..
> then,
> I loosen the stretching device,
> and add a half twist to the lower sounding cable...
> 
> and then bring up the tension nice and tight,
> and
> then PLUCK the upper cable
> and
> then PLUCK the lower cable.
> 
> LISTEN to the TONE.
> 
> Then,
> when you have the SAME EXACT TONE...
> then,
> both cables are the SAME EXACT tension.
> 
> Binary cam bows are extemely sensitive to cable pressure.


WOW, I always pluck my cables and listen to the tone. I always wondered if anyone else done that. I've picked up on things before just to find out later that other people do the same thing.


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## ijimmy

nuts&bolts said:


> OLD STYLE Binarys have no yoke cable.
> 
> The new style Bowtechs, with the "overdrive system" does have a yoke cable.
> 
> So,
> binary cam bows with NO yoke cable...
> 
> obviously, we cannot adjust the tilt angle of the top axle.
> So, sideways nock travel is NOT easily adjustable for a bow with no yoke cable.
> 
> So,
> if you are a right handed shooter,
> if you shoot a binary cam bow with NO YOKE cables,
> if your broadheads are hitting right of your field points...
> 
> ONLY adjustment is to shorten the draw length,
> to get the release side forearm MORE in line directly behind the arrow
> to reduce SIDEWAYS pull on the bowstring down to zero.
> 
> If you are a right handed shooter,
> if your broadheads are missing to the right of your field points..
> then,
> a combination of moving your arrow rest a SKOSH to the right...
> a combination of shortening the d-loop length
> a combination of taking twists out of the two cables to increase ATA, which reduces brace height
> 
> 
> all of these three things will help you dial in your broadhead point of impact with your field points.


I think you meant to say something different , in that second paragraph , broadheads hitting to the left , then move rest slightly to the right


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## nuts&bolts

ijimmy said:


> I think you meant to say something different , in that second paragraph , broadheads hitting to the left , then move rest slightly to the right


Yup.
Sorry.
Got that backwards.


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## snewton_89

For later.


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## usmc2220

Ill have to check this next time I tune


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## dougedwards

what a great thread!


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## wpk

Thanks nuts&bolts


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## shooter6687

Thank you sir..Going to tune my new bow tomorrow...


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## newbie to bow

thank you , good info for me


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## ru4auto

as always nuts&bolts info is as good as gold...


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## deerhuntinsunof

Marked


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## Tactical Hunter

For later.


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## CouesCEP

Subscribed


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## TrpD345

Thanks!


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## padeadeye

tagging in for this one. Man, what great info!


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## link06

I'm in, anything Nuts&Bolts has to say about tuning is worth listening to!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blueberry_DLD

Very good info


Sent from my iPhone somewhere in the Midwest!


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## deerhuntinsunof

Marked


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## tuckerman9

follow


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## MM1017

Great information here. Thanks Nuts&Bolts.


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## ILOVE3D

just subscribing to another thread full of knowledge by Alan. Thanks Alan


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## hjort jagare

Marked


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## fresnohunter

Alan (nuts&bolts) knows Bow


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## AlphaburnerEBR

This should stay on top


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## seafaris

So for a new shooter (4 months, and 65 at that) is it more important to get ones form correct first, or does bow tuning go hand in hand with learning at the same time. I just put on new strings, and cams are in sync. I'm am happy with peep height, center shot, and draw length (I think). I like my anchoring spot. At this point my problem is just holding steady as I get tired, and a really solid left hand. I'ts a work in progress, building stamina and increasing weight on the stabs. So the main question is once I get everything close should I then work with fine tuning, or do that now? I shoot 3x week at the range (2 rounds 5 spot, average overall 291/30x's) and at home the other days working on various things. Thanks!:dontknow:


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## nuts&bolts

seafaris said:


> So for a new shooter (4 months, and 65 at that) is it more important to get ones form correct first, or does bow tuning go hand in hand with learning at the same time. I just put on new strings, and cams are in sync. I'm am happy with peep height, center shot, and draw length (I think). I like my anchoring spot. At this point my problem is just holding steady as I get tired, and a really solid left hand. I'ts a work in progress, building stamina and increasing weight on the stabs. So the main question is once I get everything close should I then work with fine tuning, or do that now? I shoot 3x week at the range (2 rounds 5 spot, average overall 291/30x's) and at home the other days working on various things. Thanks!:dontknow:


Hello seafaris:

Let's talk hiking boots.
Left boot is a little bit too tight...hot spot just above the big toe.
You get blisters, you can still walk through the pain,

but hey,
you are just 4 months and 65 at that, into hiking,
so.....

do you take a bit of rubbing alcohol and soften the leather at the hot spot
and stretch out your boot so it becomes a perfect fit...

or
do you just walk through the pain, you know,
cuz you are just 4 months into hiking.


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## seafaris

LOL... Love your analogies. Fine tuning it is. I don't like blisters!:whip2:


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## nuts&bolts

seafaris said:


> So for a new shooter (4 months, and 65 at that) is it more important to get ones form correct first, or does bow tuning go hand in hand with learning at the same time. I just put on new strings, and cams are in sync. I'm am happy with peep height, center shot, and draw length (I think). I like my anchoring spot. At this point my problem is just holding steady as I get tired, and a really solid left hand. I'ts a work in progress, building stamina and increasing weight on the stabs. So the main question is once I get everything close should I then work with fine tuning, or do that now? I shoot 3x week at the range (2 rounds 5 spot, average overall 291/30x's) and at home the other days working on various things. Thanks!:dontknow:


Ok,
now back to archery.

Soooo,
you will probably hear about such and such pro
can do 60 shots into a single hole in the target...

truly amazing shooting,
and these guys are just plain super human in their talent.

That's great. It is a combination to amazing mental control (nerves) and near super human ability.


So,
only 1 person wins the gold medal at the Olympics.

Then,
there is the rest of us, who just WATCH the Olympics on TV.


So,
tuning a bow to fit the SHOOTER perfectly,
will only make things EASIER for the SHOOTER.

Yes,
you should TRAIN to build muscle memory...
you should TRAIN to build shot consistency.

If I were training YOU to shoot 1000 yards, prone, with a sniper rifle...

would it be better for me to give you a fresh out of the box rifle
or
would it be better for me to give you a rifle with the trigger tuned JUST the way YOU like,
with an adjustable stock that is customized to fit YOU perfectly
with a barrel tuner set for perfect harmonics.


We are ALL a work in progress.

Tuning a bow is a two fold process.
We get the bow shooting with as close to ZERO sideways nock travel
and
we get the bow shooting with as close to ZERO up-down nock travel.

BUT,
the 2nd part of bow tuning,
is to get the bow to fit YOU perfectly.

Tweaking the draw length setting, to get your sight picture float ROCK STEADY for that first 3 seconds after you hit anchor...
fine tuning the draw length 1 TWIST at a time in the bowstring.

Dialing in the holding weight.
Dialing in the weight of the bow system (weight on the riser).
Matching the weight of the bow system to the holding weight....there is a perfect balance for EACH shooter...HIGHER holding weight needs a HEAVIER bow system (more weight on the riser itself).
Tuning the amount of FRONT HEAVINESS for your bow stabilizer system.


If you are into race cars,
then...

you have cars fresh off the factory floor...

and then,
we get into corner weighting (balancing the weight of the car...left to right...front to back)
we get into staggering tire pressure (left to right....front to back)
we get into custom shock absorber systems...where you can dial in a different amount of compression control...down cycle...and a different amoutn of rebound...up cycle).


So,
I find it amusing,
when folks say a badly tuned bow will work just as well as a finely tuned bow.....

well,
true for a shooting machine (top level pro shooter or the Spot Hogg shooting machine)...

but for use everyday shooters who WATCH the Olympics and are not ON the Olympic team...

*a FINELY tuned,
an EXPERTLY tuned bow..

will ALWAYS help a shooter, a normal, everyday average shooter,
reach the NEXT LEVEL of shooting,
hit the NEXT personal best of shooting.*


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## MonsterT85

That's Good stuff


nuts&bolts said:


> Ok,
> now back to archery.
> 
> Soooo,
> you will probably hear about such and such pro
> can do 60 shots into a single hole in the target...
> 
> truly amazing shooting,
> and these guys are just plain super human in their talent.
> 
> That's great. It is a combination to amazing mental control (nerves) and near super human ability.
> 
> 
> So,
> only 1 person wins the gold medal at the Olympics.
> 
> Then,
> there is the rest of us, who just WATCH the Olympics on TV.
> 
> 
> So,
> tuning a bow to fit the SHOOTER perfectly,
> will only make things EASIER for the SHOOTER.
> 
> Yes,
> you should TRAIN to build muscle memory...
> you should TRAIN to build shot consistency.
> 
> If I were training YOU to shoot 1000 yards, prone, with a sniper rifle...
> 
> would it be better for me to give you a fresh out of the box rifle
> or
> would it be better for me to give you a rifle with the trigger tuned JUST the way YOU like,
> with an adjustable stock that is customized to fit YOU perfectly
> with a barrel tuner set for perfect harmonics.
> 
> 
> We are ALL a work in progress.
> 
> Tuning a bow is a two fold process.
> We get the bow shooting with as close to ZERO sideways nock travel
> and
> we get the bow shooting with as close to ZERO up-down nock travel.
> 
> BUT,
> the 2nd part of bow tuning,
> is to get the bow to fit YOU perfectly.
> 
> Tweaking the draw length setting, to get your sight picture float ROCK STEADY for that first 3 seconds after you hit anchor...
> fine tuning the draw length 1 TWIST at a time in the bowstring.
> 
> Dialing in the holding weight.
> Dialing in the weight of the bow system (weight on the riser).
> Matching the weight of the bow system to the holding weight....there is a perfect balance for EACH shooter...HIGHER holding weight needs a HEAVIER bow system (more weight on the riser itself).
> Tuning the amount of FRONT HEAVINESS for your bow stabilizer system.
> 
> 
> If you are into race cars,
> then...
> 
> you have cars fresh off the factory floor...
> 
> and then,
> we get into corner weighting (balancing the weight of the car...left to right...front to back)
> we get into staggering tire pressure (left to right....front to back)
> we get into custom shock absorber systems...where you can dial in a different amount of compression control...down cycle...and a different amoutn of rebound...up cycle).
> 
> 
> So,
> I find it amusing,
> when folks say a badly tuned bow will work just as well as a finely tuned bow.....
> 
> well,
> true for a shooting machine (top level pro shooter or the Spot Hogg shooting machine)...
> 
> but for use everyday shooters who WATCH the Olympics and are not ON the Olympic team...
> 
> *a FINELY tuned,
> an EXPERTLY tuned bow..
> 
> will ALWAYS help a shooter, a normal, everyday average shooter,
> reach the NEXT LEVEL of shooting,
> hit the NEXT personal best of shooting.*


----------



## azl

nuts&bolts said:


> *a FINELY tuned,
> an EXPERTLY tuned bow..
> 
> will ALWAYS help a shooter, a normal, everyday average shooter,
> reach the NEXT LEVEL of shooting,
> hit the NEXT personal best of shooting.*


I am just getting into tuning because I feel that my form is consistent enough that I can see the changes in the bow. Now that I've done a little tuning, I've found the bow a lot easier to shoot and more forgiving. The ease and forgiveness are in turn increasing my confidence and reduces my fear of adjusting my bow.

Prior to this time, I've always wondered if my scores were a result of my form, the bow or both. Now I can eliminate the bow from the equation. Further, I have the confidence to adjust my bow. Previously, I was in fear of touching anything other than the draw weight because I was concerned of screwing up the bow. Now I know what is right for me and how to adjust the bow to get there.


----------



## HoytTF

Tagged for later


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## brandonlw

Marking this one for sure!!!!


----------



## DBLLNGR

wow i need to print this stuff


----------



## Draw27

ttt


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## dunderwood

Info overload definitely printing these


----------



## ProtecMan

marked for later
just picked up my PCE XL with spirals!


----------



## Jimmitch

Great info thanks.


----------



## hatchettjack

I know I would buy the book!

Mosquitoes Refuse To Bite Me


----------



## Oberhaz

I'm in.


----------



## OhioHoytHunter

Tagged for later. Need to print this stuff off for sure.


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## dkkarr

Marked for later


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## Boudreaux

Heck yea, Some good Info right there!

Thanks, 
Boswell


----------



## jks39

Ok, I've got a related question. I originally followed nuts&bolt's directions and tuned my bow so it was shooting bare shafts right with my fletched ones. The problem is I changed from a whalen hooker back to a wrist type release. I still pull through the shot using BT instead of using the finger. My problem is now I am trying to tune it. When I shoot bare shafts they go 6-7" to the left, and I am a RH shooter. My left sided yoke is already unwound pretty good while the right is quite tight. I am using a scott rhino xt release. I am using the same setup as before except for the release. So what do I do next? Is it my form due to the new release? I get it consistently to the left in the same spot. Any help would be much appreciated.


----------



## nuts&bolts

jks39 said:


> Ok, I've got a related question. I originally followed nuts&bolt's directions and tuned my bow so it was shooting bare shafts right with my fletched ones. The problem is I changed from a whalen hooker back to a wrist type release. I still pull through the shot using BT instead of using the finger. My problem is now I am trying to tune it. When I shoot bare shafts they go 6-7" to the left, and I am a RH shooter. My left sided yoke is already unwound pretty good while the right is quite tight. I am using a scott rhino xt release. I am using the same setup as before except for the release. So what do I do next? Is it my form due to the new release? I get it consistently to the left in the same spot. Any help would be much appreciated.



Follow the instructions for KITCHEN SINK Tuning.

Maximum of 2 extra twists on one end of the top axle (SHORTEN the yoke cable leg).
MAX of removing 2 twists on the opposite side of the top axle (LENGTHEN the yoke cable leg).

*This is ALL described in STEP 2.*

So,
when the twists adjustment in the YOKE CABLE Legs is NOT ENOUGH adjustment...

then,
*we goto STEP 3.*


GOTTA tweak the bowstring.

So,
*IF YOU are right handed..*

and your bareshafts are MISSING to the LEFT..

we must UNTWIST the bowstring,
we must REMOVE twists from the bowstring,
to make the bowstring LONGER.

KEEP untwisting the bowstring,
and check your progress with the bareshaft point of impact.


*Post up a picture,
head to toe, as well.*


----------



## nuts&bolts

jks39 said:


> Ok, I've got a related question. I originally followed nuts&bolt's directions and tuned my bow so it was shooting bare shafts right with my fletched ones. The problem is I changed from a whalen hooker back to a wrist type release. I still pull through the shot using BT instead of using the finger. My problem is now I am trying to tune it. When I shoot bare shafts they go 6-7" to the left, and I am a RH shooter. My left sided yoke is already unwound pretty good while the right is quite tight. I am using a scott rhino xt release. I am using the same setup as before except for the release. So what do I do next? Is it my form due to the new release? I get it consistently to the left in the same spot. Any help would be much appreciated.


If you are LEFT HANDED,
and the bareshafts are missing to the LEFT..

then,
we gotta tweak the bowstring,
and we gotta tweak the bowstring SHORTER,
by ADDING twists to the bowstring (top and bottom)
or
going to a SHORTER DL module,
if you are LEFT HANDED.


----------



## jks39

Oh, so lengthening the bowstring without adjusting the yoke will still bring the left bare shafts back to the center? I didn't realize that. Thanks! Just curious, but is it common for a release change like that to affect the tuning that much? Thank you for your help.


----------



## jks39

Oh, and I'll try to get a picture up as well.


----------



## nuts&bolts

jks39 said:


> Oh, so lengthening the bowstring without adjusting the yoke will still bring the left bare shafts back to the center? I didn't realize that. Thanks! Just curious, but is it common for a release change like that to affect the tuning that much? Thank you for your help.


Just adjust the bowstring,
when you need a LARGE change in the bareshaft point of impact.

If the bareshafts are missing by a SMALL amount,
then,
we can work the yoke cable legs and PULL DOWN on one end of the top axle (add twists to the leg)
and 
we can allow the other end of the top axle to RISE (remove twists in the other yoke leg).


So,
to prevent MASSIVE cam lean,
I only recommend a MAX of 2 extra twists on one yoke leg,
and
I only recommend REMOVING a MAX of 2 twists on the other yoke leg.

After you get to this point...

and the bareshaft still needs to move sideways...

then,
we make MEDIUM size adjustments for bareshaft point of impact
with EXTRA TWISTS or REMOVING twists in the bowstring.

Then,
we make LARGE size adjustments for bareshaft point of impact
with a SHORTER or LONGER DL module
or FIXED DL cam.


----------



## jks39

Thank you for your help. I've always gotten where I needed to be with the yoke adjustment so this is my first time going a step further adjusting the bowstring itself. I will try these and report back with the results.


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## sab323

tag for later. new (to me) elite answer on the way.

i'm always amazed at alan's ability to communicate in these posts--every one is worth reading.


----------



## havok

good stuff here. Tagged for later


----------



## Mestang99

Awesome thread.


----------



## mrchaos102

LugNut for President!!!!!


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 Android


----------



## Spikealot

Now that just cracks me up.!!!!  :wink: :smileinbox:

(and yeah - - - he'd get my vote also.)


----------



## rackmasterlgw

Excellent thread.


----------



## cenochs

Had to post so I can go back and read


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## ILOVE3D

Another one I missed earlier but a great one with a ton of good information by N&B, Thanks Alan.


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## jks39

Well,after shooting a munch before making any adjustments my bareshaftes hit consistently about 1.5 inches to the left. As mentioned before my yoke adjustment is maxed out so I ended taking 2.5 twists out of the string. The problem is even after 2.5 twists removed the bareshafts still hit 1.5 inches to the left. So, is it reasonable to take even more twists out? I was working on this just before dark so I didn't get a picture but I will have my wife take one of me tomorrow just so you can see my form. 

Another thing, I do notice that the bare shaft is always nock right about 2 or so inches. I was told that it is only where the point hits the target that matters but it definitely enters the target at an angle. Any suggestions?


----------



## nuts&bolts

jks39 said:


> Well,after shooting a munch before making any adjustments my bareshaftes hit consistently about 1.5 inches to the left. As mentioned before my yoke adjustment is maxed out so I ended taking 2.5 twists out of the string. The problem is even after 2.5 twists removed the bareshafts still hit 1.5 inches to the left. So, is it reasonable to take even more twists out? I was working on this just before dark so I didn't get a picture but I will have my wife take one of me tomorrow just so you can see my form.
> 
> Another thing, I do notice that the bare shaft is always nock right about 2 or so inches. I was told that it is only where the point hits the target that matters but it definitely enters the target at an angle. Any suggestions?



2.5 twists removed from the BOWSTRING is nothing.

IF you are right handed,
and your bareshafts miss to the LEFT of fletched arrows...

*INCREASE the dl length up to 1/4-inch LONGER.*

*DOUBLE your d-loop length.*
*TRIPLE your d-loop length.*

Take out 10 twists from the top of the bowstring.
Take out 15 twists out from the bottom of the bowstring.

Adjust the twists removed from the bottom of the bowstring,
until your peep sight is pointed STRAIGHT AHEAD.

When making tuning adjustments,
go TOO FAR,
and then backup in small amounts.

If you go forward in tiny steps,
it will require 1,000 tiny steps to get to the SWEET SPOT.


MAKE sure you get a good stretch across the chest
and pull your elbow back FARTHER than before,
SWING your elbow back behind your head,
to the point where YOU FEEL in line behind the arrow.

Overhead photo would be ideal.


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## milsy

Best advice anywhere! Thanks again


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## ilbow404

tag


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## jks39

OK. Thank you again for your help. I will try again tomorrow morning!


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## leebone46

thanks for the infor !!!


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## jks39

Well, I shot and shot and shot this afternoon. I took some pictures of my form after I have taken around 5 twists out of my strings ( I started getting worried about having too few twists in the my string). This again didn't do anything for the bare shaft. So I changed the draw length module to 1/2" longer and again shot. This finally brought the bare shafts within a half inch to the left. I felt pretty good about this until I backed up from 10 yards to 20. At 20 yards the bareshafts hit consistently at 10" to the left and 10" downward as well, barely hitting my block target. So is there something still wrong when I can almost hit shafts at 10 yards but it changes that much at 20 yards? Just to be complete I am shooting a Vendetta DC at 61 pounds, 27.5 dl (new longer length), and a very high foc arrow chosen with ontarget 2 (victory hvforce 350 with aluminum insert and 200 grain field point with blazer vanes (foc around 22 %). Is this a spine issue, form issue or something else? Any ideas?


----------



## nuts&bolts

jks39 said:


> Well, I shot and shot and shot this afternoon. I took some pictures of my form after I have taken around 5 twists out of my strings ( I started getting worried about having too few twists in the my string). This again didn't do anything for the bare shaft. So I changed the draw length module to 1/2" longer and again shot. This finally brought the bare shafts within a half inch to the left. I felt pretty good about this until I backed up from 10 yards to 20. At 20 yards the bareshafts hit consistently at 10" to the left and 10" downward as well, barely hitting my block target. So is there something still wrong when I can almost hit shafts at 10 yards but it changes that much at 20 yards? Just to be complete I am shooting a Vendetta DC at 61 pounds, 27.5 dl (new longer length), and a very high foc arrow chosen with ontarget 2 (victory hvforce 350 with aluminum insert and 200 grain field point with blazer vanes (foc around 22 %). Is this a spine issue, form issue or something else? Any ideas?
> 
> 
> View attachment 1584968
> 
> View attachment 1584967



Post a picture of you aiming at a bullseye,
at YOUR EXACT shoulder height.

Looks like you have a bad habit of standing up vertical
and then,
just dropping the bow arm to aim at a downhill target.

So,
can't tell if your draw length is solid,
too short
or too long.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Sooooo,
got a pm from loomis77,
who has the EXACT SAME PROBLEM.

*Here is the FIRST message from loomis77.*

*Right Handed Shooter.*

At 10mtrs, 
*loomis77 had the bareshaft hitting about 1" LEFT of the fletched shafts. *
The Bareshafts were angled in the target with NOCK RIGHT. 
Approx 2-3" RIGHT. 

loomis77 adjusted the arrow rest to the right to try and bring them (fletched and bareshafts together). 
This brought the bareshaft closer to the fletched shaft, 
but the angle of the NOCK RIGHT increased so much it snapped the shaft on impact with the target. 
If loomis77 adjusted the rest to the left to get rid of the NOCK right, the bareshaft and fletched POI spread further apart.


*My suggestions to loomis 77.*

*1) gotta work on the bow hand grip position...try a cotton glove and coat with oil..and then fire several bareshafts and see if the point of impact changes

2) the Bareshaft POINT of IMPACT at 10 meters...when the POINT of impact is hitting LEFT of the fletched...MOVE the arrow rest LEFT.
...a BETTER solution is to UNTWIST the bowstring and/or DOUBLE the length of the d-loop. I would leave the arrow rest alone.

Let me know how you do.*


*Here is the final message from loomis77.*

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you and thank you very much.

*I dont have a cotton glove, but I do have hand-soap. *
So I put some of that on my grip/hand and went to work. 

*Straight away I found my grip was causing problems. *

There was no way I would draw the bow back 
without it slipping out the side (right side) of my hand and 
whacking me in the head. 

It just wasnt going to happen. 

So I wiped off the hand-soap and 
drew back as normal and played around with inducing torque. 

It really took no effort at all to induce torque on the bow. 

I shot like this for a while and found 
I could make the arrow hit 2-3" either way of centre 
just by inducing this torque (from 30mtrs). 

Under normal conditions I am pretty consistent, but I am chasing perfection, not close enough to it.

*Re-applied the hand soap, and 
started with my hand more rotated towards the string, 
putting the grip further into my hand. *

_*I felt the grip slide into a position it wanted to go, 
and no matter what I tried, it always went to that spot.*_ 

From 30mtrs the POI changed a little, 
but it was really really consistent. 

Wiping off the hand-soap and 
went to work on finding that grip consistently. 

*It was a challenge I can tell you, 
as in the end I had to totally change how I engaged the bow. 
But it works.*

From 12mtrs. 
One fletched, and two bareshafts. 

Note the busted nock on the fletched shaft. 
The bareshafts still have a little nock right action, 
but they are a LOT straighter than what they were this morning.










I then went out to 50mtrs and after a few tweaks, 
I had consistent 2" wide groups from 50mtrs. 
Wasn't worrying about the vertical plane as much, 
just left/right.

I shot long enough to get a good mark on my hand 
so I could show you where the grip now sits in my hand...










How does that look?

It feels better, 
I seem to hold steadier, 
its definitely lightened the load on the bow-arm 

(doesnt seem to be working as hard) 

and is definitely more consistent. 

Now the real challenge is to burn it into my "do it naturally" brain file. lol
*END of MESSAGE from loomis77.*

Sooooo,
if a right handed shooter is getting bareshafts to the left...

try a cotton glove and soak it in oil
or
lots of hand soap/dishwashing liquid on your bow hand..

and see if THIS changes your bareshaft point of impact.


----------



## jks39

I will definitely try the hand soap thing next, as well as get a better picture. I really appreciate your help. All great info!


----------



## DT87

Tagged


----------



## HOYTDKP

saved


----------



## buckeye 12 ring

Saved for later

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2


----------



## leebone46

marked


----------



## npbow

Marked


----------



## Mikenmel08

Tagged


----------



## canon

unreal and its all for free


----------



## Marooned

subscribed


----------



## Gcs13

Tagged


----------



## nuts&bolts

canon said:


> unreal and its all for free


donations gladly accepted.


----------



## maton818

This is incredibly detailed, I can't begin to tell you how much I, and all the other aspiring archers, appreciate your posts! 
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## naturemade

Thanks..


----------



## KurtVL

Tagged


----------



## Spurlucky

Subscribing, too much info for one sitting.


----------



## 4shotshy

need to find this later


----------



## sjfuo

marked


----------



## Drsmith751

great info


----------



## concretekid33

tagged for later


----------



## acesbettor

Looks like i'm going to be busy this weekend... Thank you nuts&bolts!


----------



## steve101610

Good read


----------



## tripleb2431

Tag


----------



## gun

Marked


----------



## Hardscrabble

marked. good stuff here


----------



## etskjboggs

Thanks


----------



## shtrbc

Nuts and Bolts,
You seriously need to consider doing a book. I like many others on AT try to keep up with your wonderful, generous posts but it would be great to have everything in one location. The first thing I printed off AT was your general tuning link and found it to be great!!! You are the first person that I have found I could understand and give super detailed information, for FREE!! I would be willing to pay $50-100/copy of a comprehensive tuning book. 
You could even do another one specifically for coaching and shooting help. Can't say enough bud, truly appreciate everything you do!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

shtrbc said:


> Nuts and Bolts,
> You seriously need to consider doing a book. I like many others on AT try to keep up with your wonderful, generous posts but it would be great to have everything in one location. The first thing I printed off AT was your general tuning link and found it to be great!!! You are the first person that I have found I could understand and give super detailed information, for FREE!! I would be willing to pay $50-100/copy of a comprehensive tuning book.
> You could even do another one specifically for coaching and shooting help. Can't say enough bud, truly appreciate everything you do!!


Welcome.

Looks like P&y want to arrange an in person seminar,
2 days,
at his archery club in Iowa, possibly May 2013.

We might figure a way to have video of this 2 day seminar.


----------



## stymie

nuts&bolts said:


> Welcome.
> 
> Looks like P&y want to arrange an in person seminar,
> 2 days,
> at his archery club in Iowa, possibly May 2013.
> 
> *We might figure a way to have video of this 2 day seminar*.


That would be great! You da man! Thanks for all your great info.


----------



## InjunJR

nuts&bolts said:


> Welcome.
> 
> Looks like P&y want to arrange an in person seminar,
> 2 days,
> at his archery club in Iowa, possibly May 2013.
> 
> We might figure a way to have video of this 2 day seminar.


I would pay for that......


----------



## nuts&bolts

InjunJR said:


> I would pay for that......


Send a pm to P&y,
and let him know you are interested.


----------



## InjunJR

nuts&bolts said:


> Send a pm to P&y,
> and let him know you are interested.


pm sent!


----------



## Ned250

Saving for later...


----------



## aljburk

nuts&bolts said:


> OLD STYLE Binarys have no yoke cable.
> 
> The new style Bowtechs, with the "overdrive system" does have a yoke cable.
> 
> So,
> binary cam bows with NO yoke cable...
> 
> obviously, we cannot adjust the tilt angle of the top axle.
> So, sideways nock travel is NOT easily adjustable for a bow with no yoke cable.
> 
> So,
> if you are a right handed shooter,
> if you shoot a binary cam bow with NO YOKE cables,
> if your broadheads are hitting right of your field points...
> 
> ONLY adjustment is to shorten the draw length,
> to get the release side forearm MORE in line directly behind the arrow
> to reduce SIDEWAYS pull on the bowstring down to zero.
> 
> If you are a right handed shooter,
> if your broadheads are missing to the right of your field points..
> then,
> a combination of moving your arrow rest a SKOSH to the right...
> a combination of shortening the d-loop length
> a combination of taking twists out of the two cables to increase ATA, which reduces brace height
> 
> 
> all of these three things will help you dial in your broadhead point of impact with your field points.


This is what i was looking for....


----------



## Tater1985

Good info here.


----------



## KSHammers1

Tagged.


----------



## J-Dubyah

Just so I don't continue pulling my hair trying to find it again


----------



## Fire Archer

Subscribed.


----------



## InjunJR

nuts&bolts said:


> With any binary cam system....
> 
> gotta make sure that both cables are EXACTLY the same tension....same length not good enough.
> 
> I like to put both cables on a stretching device,
> and then,
> I will PLUCK the top cable on the stretcher
> and LISTEN to the tone.
> 
> Then,
> since both cables are on the stretcher at the same time...
> then,
> I PLUCK the bottom cable on the stretcher.
> 
> PLUCK UPPER cable.
> PLUCK LOWER cable.
> 
> Confirm that both cables are giving off the SAME EXACT tone.
> 
> If one cable SOUNDS like a lower note..
> then,
> I loosen the stretching device,
> and add a half twist to the lower sounding cable...
> 
> and then bring up the tension nice and tight,
> and
> then PLUCK the upper cable
> and
> then PLUCK the lower cable.
> 
> LISTEN to the TONE.
> 
> Then,
> when you have the SAME EXACT TONE...
> then,
> both cables are the SAME EXACT tension.
> 
> Binary cam bows are extemely sensitive to cable pressure.


I will be performing my first ever Kitchen Sink tuning in a few days once I get my new string for my Elite Pulse (binary cam). I don't have any kind of cable stretcher. Can you possibly go into some more depth about what I'll need to twist and un-twist if my bare shafts aren't hitting with my fletched arrows once I start?


----------



## buck chaser74

tag


----------



## Gob

Might be a stupid question but do you do the kitchen sink with a complete shooting setup? Stabs and all?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Gob said:


> Might be a stupid question but do you do the kitchen sink with a complete shooting setup? Stabs and all?


All questions are good questions.

Short answer, yes.

I will make sure to cover this question in the DVD I am making.


----------



## Blueberry_DLD

Question for you, I have my bow tuned as well as I can its shooting great, it's a Athens R120 but it tunes left of center should this be something to be concerned with?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Blueberry_DLD said:


> Question for you, I have my bow tuned as well as I can its shooting great, it's a Athens R120 but it tunes left of center should this be something to be concerned with?


Right hand shooter?
Left hand shooter?

If you tape an arrow to your sight window...

how far out of parallel is the arrow loaded on the bowstring,
arrow on the arrow rest,
bow is at rest?

Picture?

If you are happy with the way it shoots,
then,
no need to change a thing.

If you want to see if you can reach the next level,
then,
we have to experiment and see if we can make it a tiny bit better.


----------



## Blueberry_DLD

Right hand shooter! I just switched releases and re shot it and had to move my rest back in! I shot through paper to see what it was doing after moving it and got a very slight right tear it was very minimal!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Blueberry_DLD said:


> Right hand shooter! I just switched releases and re shot it and had to move my rest back in! I shot through paper to see what it was doing after moving it and got a very slight right tear it was very minimal!


If you are happy with your groups...don't change a thing.

If you want to experiment.....
press the bow,
remove a half twist off the top of the bowstring
and
remove a half twist off the bottom of the bowstring.


----------



## Blueberry_DLD

Gonna try that now, thanks glad there's someone here that's very helpful


----------



## nuts&bolts

Blueberry_DLD said:


> Gonna try that now, thanks glad there's someone here that's very helpful


Keep experimenting.
The idea is to make the string a TEENY ITSY BITSY bit longer
so you get a slightly GREATER stretch across the chest.

So,
when you are at full draw,
with this SUPER TINY bit longer bowstring,
then,
your forearm (right side) will line up even better,
more inline behind the arrow, when you are at full draw...

and
this tiny change in alignment of the forearm (right side)
will make that tiny right tear,
into your bullet hole.

Ultimately,
shoot groups
at whatever is your favorite distance,
and continue these experiments
with tiny changes in the bow DL setting (extra twist or remove twists)
to fine tune the shape/size of your arrow groups.


----------



## nuts&bolts

The change in draw length is NOT MEASUREABLE...

when you make half twist adjustments,
when you make 1 twist adjustments...
but,
you WILL feel the difference in the shot,
the difference in how your release fires.


----------



## Blueberry_DLD

Thank you so much for your valuable information, I'm going to try this


----------



## tripleb2431

K now I'm confused you helped me out last summer I said my rest was way out to left and you told me my dl was o long which you were right it was to long and I got new shorter cams and it fixed it ???


----------



## nuts&bolts

tripleb2431 said:


> K now I'm confused you helped me out last summer I said my rest was way out to left and you told me my dl was o long which you were right it was to long and I got new shorter cams and it fixed it ???


What bow?

Have you tried Kitchen Sink Tuning?


----------



## tripleb2431

Athens binary cams


----------



## nuts&bolts

tripleb2431 said:


> Athens binary cams


So, how are you shooting now-a-days?


----------



## ILOVE3D

So nuts & bolts, you mentioned tension on cables on binary cam bows, does this include bows with forked cable and what problem does the different tension create or what should we look for?


----------



## nuts&bolts

ILOVE3D said:


> So nuts & bolts, you mentioned tension on cables on binary cam bows, does this include bows with forked cable and what problem does the different tension create or what should we look for?


With the older binary cam bows,
bowstring
two control cables (only 2 end loops)
if you stretch both cables in a stretcher
and get the tension to match...

this saves you lots of time,
getting the cam sync perfectly matched,
cuz the cables are already a DEAD match for tension.

If you skip this tension test,
no problem,
you will spend a little more time Creep Tuning
to get the cam sync PERFECT.

Same goes for the forked cable (yoke cable) binary cam systems.


----------



## tripleb2431

Better now I'm just confused? When I seen blueberries post I thought you'd say shorten dl not lengthen it cause when I was shooting left of center you told me to shorten mine and I did and it fixed it


----------



## nuts&bolts

tripleb2431 said:


> Better now I'm just confused? When I seen blueberries post I thought you'd say shorten dl not lengthen it cause when I was shooting left of center you told me to shorten mine and I did and it fixed it


There are always two choices
and in the end,
we go with what works.

Let your results guide you
when tuning.


----------



## dfII

Is there such thing as having too many twists or too few on one side of the yoke cable? I've been working on a bow trying to get the cam lean out and i have no twists on one side and about 12 on the other. That is the only way to completely get rid of it.


----------



## nuts&bolts

dfII said:


> Is there such thing as having too many twists or too few on one side of the yoke cable? I've been working on a bow trying to get the cam lean out and i have no twists on one side and about 12 on the other. That is the only way to completely get rid of it.


I like to have folks start with the top cam or idler wheel DEAD straight (vertical)
when the bow is at full draw,
on a draw board.

So,
then,
I recommend a MAXIMUM of ADDING 2 twists, top axle, LEFT SIDE...to fix a left paper tear
and
I recommend a MAXIMUM of removing 2 twists, TOP AXLE, right side...to fix a LEFT paper tear.

So,
if THIS SMALL adjustment is NOT enough to FIX your LEFT TEAR...

then,
DO NOT KEEP adding twists to one side, of the TOP AXLE.

I discuss this in Kitchen Sink Tuning.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning

See Post #5.


Kitchen Sink Tuning has 6 steps.

So,
if you tried 2 twists extra on the TOP AXLE, LEFT side
and
if you tried removing a MAX of 2 twists, TOP AXLE, RIGHT SIDE...

and this does not fix your left paper tear,
then
goto STEP 4,
where we change the draw length,
to FIX your LEFT tear.

Might need to only twist the bowstring at both ends to change your DL shorter 1/16th inch.
Might need to only twist the bowstring at both ends to change your DL shorter 1/8th inch.
Might need to only twist the bowstring at both ends to change your DL shorter 3/16th inch.
Might need to only twist the bowstring at both ends to change your DL shorter 1/4 inch.

Might need to change the fixed DL cam or DL module, to shorten the DL 1/2-inch.

When we fix the shooting posture,
when we get your forearm directly behind the arrow, when at full draw, then, the left tear goes away,
when you learn how to lean backwards LESS and LESS.


----------



## dfII

Thanks. I'll look into that too. Can't believe you got back to me on this already.


----------



## Ba24

Tagged


----------



## HoytHunter05

tagged.


----------



## locusthill1831

Tagged


----------



## tack09

Tfl


----------



## 7.62

nuts&bolts said:


> If you are a RIGHT HANDED shooter
> and
> the bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of the string...
> 
> 
> *STEP 2:*
> 
> Press your bow
> and shorten the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
> and lengthen the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
> and fire a bareshaft again at the hanging string in front of the target...
> 
> the bareshaft point of impact should MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
> 
> repeat the shortening of the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (ADD)
> and
> repeat the lengthening of the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (REMOVE)


How does this apply to a bow with split yokes - i.e. no left or right buss cable? Apparently my bow has a "floating" yoke.


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> How does this apply to a bow with split yokes - i.e. no left or right buss cable? Apparently my bow has a "floating" yoke.



As you can see in your photo,
Mathews has decided to build a yoke system,
that is IMPOSSIBLE to remove off the axle...unless you dis-assemble the top axle.

So, essentially,
this is a NON-ADJUSTABLE yoke cable leg design. The "END LOOP" is trapped IN BETWEEN the two split limbs.











So, on a "typical" yoke leg design,
the end loops are smaller,
but,
MORE IMPORTANTLY...

the yoke leg end loops are mounted OUTSIDE the split limbs,
allowing a shooter/tuner to press the bow,
and CONVENIENTLY remove the yoke leg end loop off the axle,
make an extra twist adjustment
or
remove a twist adjustment...

to fine tune the yoke leg length,
which means,
we can choose to pull down on the top axle, LEFT SIDE, to fix a LEFT paper tear.


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> How does this apply to a bow with split yokes - i.e. no left or right buss cable? Apparently my bow has a "floating" yoke.



So,
IS there a way to CHANGE the factory design
of this NON-ADJUSTABLE floating yoke cable with the LARGE donut?

Yes.


----------



## 7.62

nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> IS there a way to CHANGE the factory design
> of this NON-ADJUSTABLE floating yoke cable with the LARGE donut?
> 
> Yes.


Sorry, but this means...what?

And, in theory, if I wanted to follow the first part of the kitchen sink method, I would have to painstakingly disassemble the axel for every adjustment, correct? But, barring that, how would I make the kitchen sink method work for me?


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> Sorry, but this means...what?
> 
> And, in theory, if I wanted to follow the first part of the kitchen sink method, I would have to painstakingly disassemble the axel for every adjustment, correct? But, barring that, how would I make the kitchen sink method work for me?


Will not work for the Mathews system on your bow.
The large yoke cable end loops are INSIDE, between the limbs,
so adjusting the yoke cable is not feasible.

2nd problem, is the large donut.
The yoke cable needs to be locked onto the donut, for any twists to take hold and make a change.

So,
the only way to make my Kitchen Sink method to work on YOUR bow,
is a custom modified yoke cable,
which would be going beyond the Mathews design.

So,
if we leave the yoke cable alone,
if we assume you HAVE no yoke cable,
(like binary cam bows with no yoke cable...YOU HAVE a yoke cable, it JUST is not adjustable)...

then,
my advice to you,
is the same advice I give to folks with binary cam systems with NO yoke cable...

skip the yoke cable step in Kitchen Sink Tuning
and go straight to the part
where we adjust the draw length...in tiny amounts.

If you are getting a LEFT paper tear,
if you are a RH shooter..

then,
we can fix this
by tuning the draw length..
maybe 1/16th inch shorter (twist the bowstring at both ends)
maybe 1/8th inch shorter (twist the bowstring at both ends)
maybe 3/16th inches shorter (twist the bowstring at both ends)
maybe 1/4-inch shorter (twist the bowstring at both ends)
maybe 1/2-inch shorter (shorter FIXED dl cam or shorter DL modules).


----------



## 7.62

Thank you. Let's say I am all the way in-between DLs - 1/4". Is it better to have the shorter DL module and untwist to gain that 1/4", or better to have the longer DL module and add twists to lose that 1/4"?

And, just to clarify, I would only add/subtract twists to the END LOOPS of the yoke cables to synch the cams if I find they are out of synch (or to time them), correct?


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## contenderelite

Saved


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## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> Thank you. Let's say I am all the way in-between DLs - 1/4". Is it better to have the shorter DL module and untwist to gain that 1/4", or better to have the longer DL module and add twists to lose that 1/4"?
> 
> And, just to clarify, I would only add/subtract twists to the END LOOPS of the yoke cables to synch the cams if I find they are out of synch (or to time them), correct?


Yes.

Work the ends of the buss cable, since that is the only end you can adjust on the buss cable.
Pick one buss cable, and then add twists or remove twists on that same end loop of the buss cable you choose to work with,
to change the cam sync,
to find your sweet spot, when CREEP TUNING.


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> Thank you. Let's say I am all the way in-between DLs - 1/4". Is it better to have the shorter DL module and untwist to gain that 1/4", or better to have the longer DL module and add twists to lose that 1/4"?
> 
> And, just to clarify, I would only add/subtract twists to the END LOOPS of the yoke cables to synch the cams if I find they are out of synch (or to time them), correct?


So,
for ANY bow cam system...

when you SHORTEN a bowstring,
two things happen:

a) draw weight goes down slightly
b) holding weight goes up slightly.


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> Thank you. Let's say I am all the way in-between DLs - 1/4". Is it better to have the shorter DL module and untwist to gain that 1/4", or better to have the longer DL module and add twists to lose that 1/4"?
> 
> And, just to clarify, I would only add/subtract twists to the END LOOPS of the yoke cables to synch the cams if I find they are out of synch (or to time them), correct?


So,
for ANY bow cam system...

when you LENGTH a bowstring,
two things happen:

a) draw weight goes up slightly
b) holding weight goes down slightly.
M4L


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> Thank you. Let's say I am all the way in-between DLs - 1/4". Is it better to have the shorter DL module and untwist to gain that 1/4", or better to have the longer DL module and add twists to lose that 1/4"?
> 
> And, just to clarify, I would only add/subtract twists to the END LOOPS of the yoke cables to synch the cams if I find they are out of synch (or to time them), correct?


If you need to fine tune draw length...

say,
micro-tune your draw length...

a 1/16th inch change
a 1/8th inch change
a 3/16th inch change
a 1/4 inch change...

tweak BOTH ends of the bowstring...
just make sure you make more twists (add or remove) on the bottom of the bowstring.

So,
if you ADD 1 twist on top,
then, try 1.5 twists EXTRA on bottom,
so the peep stays pointed STRAIGHT ahead.


----------



## youngnick

Tagged

sent from my mind


----------



## bwhntr7973

usmc2220 said:


> Ill have to check this next time I tune


Just tagging for later!


----------



## Classic Ranger

Awesome thread! Learning more everyday.


----------



## ADCTD2SHOOTING

tagged for future


----------



## RAbdou

I would pay millions of dollars for a DVD of Nuts&Bolts demonstrating all of this for us, for every type of bow. Millions. Millions I say.

Or a hundred bucks, easy.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nuts&bolts

RAbdou said:


> I would pay millions of dollars for a DVD of Nuts&Bolts demonstrating all of this for us, for every type of bow. Millions. Millions I say.
> 
> Or a hundred bucks, easy.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


MUCH MUCH less than that.

hehehehe.

If you would like a copy of the DVD,
please post on this thread.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1979689&page=34


----------



## brohymn2

cant wait for my bowmaster to show up so i can try this


----------



## nuts&bolts

brohymn2 said:


> cant wait for my bowmaster to show up so i can try this


Give Kitchen Sink Tuning a whirl.
Do Kitchen Sink Tuning first.

Then,
finish with Creep Tuning.

These two methods MUST be performed together,
and helps if you do this in order.

Kitchen Sink cleans up arrow flight, in the LEFT-RIGHT direction.

Creep Tuning cleans up arrow flight in the UP-DOWN direction.


----------



## Wisconsinvette

Getting a new bow. This is what I needed.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Wisconsinvette said:


> Getting a new bow. This is what I needed.


I am producing a DVD with much more.
If you are interested,
then please post in this thread.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1979689


----------



## Ned250

How does arrow spine play into this equation?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Ned250 said:


> How does arrow spine play into this equation?


If you shoot recurve,
you are a FINGERS SHOOTER.

IF you shoot compound FINGERS,
then arrow spine...PROPER arrow spine makes a HUGE difference.

If you shoot a compound bow with a release....
too weak, 
then the arrow groups are larger than your TRUE potential.

If you shoot a compound bow with a release....
too stiff, 
then tight arrow groups are more difficult for the beginning shooter.

Example would be GoldTip X-Cutter target arrows with 100 grain target points.
These are 250 spine target arrows.
Yet, experienced target shooters can get tight groups to 80 yards 
(max NFAA field archery distance) shooting only 50 lbs of draw weight.

A compound bow
shot with a release
CAN shoot ridiculously STIFF target arrows....if the shooter has the bow DL set perfectly.


----------



## DavidBLingo

Subscribed. I'll be glad when the DVD with all this info is available!


----------



## fresnohunter

great thread


----------



## hunter1969

tag for later


----------



## ndm

Tagged 

Turkey Team #14 CLUCK DYNASTY


----------



## NeshotaValley

Awesome info.

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## littlebrotherC

So what do I do if my bare shaft is missing left of the fletched arrow. Is it just the opposite when adjusting the split buss?


----------



## nuts&bolts

littlebrotherC said:


> So what do I do if my bare shaft is missing left of the fletched arrow. Is it just the opposite when adjusting the split buss?


Are you right handed?

So,
first,
with bareshaft missing to the LEFT of the fletched arrow,
we try a MAXIMUM of 2 complete twists, TOP AXLE,
RIGHT SIDE.



So,
STEP 1: try adding a half twist, top axle, RIGHT side.

So,
STEP 2: try adding another half twist, total of 1 twist added, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

So,
STEP 3: try adding another half twist, total of 1.5 twists added, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

So,
STEP 4: try adding another half twist, total of 2 twists added, top axle, RIGHT SIDE.

So,
STEP 5: try REMOVING a half twist, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

So,
STEP 6: try REMOVING another half twist, total of 1 twist REMOVED, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

So,
STEP 7: try REMOVING another half twist, total of 1.5 twists REMOVED, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

So,
STEP 8: try REMOVING another half twist, total of 2 twists REMOVED, top axle, LEFT SIDE.

If after these 8 steps,
the bareshaft continues to miss to the LEFT of fletched arrows,
AND
IF YOU ARE RIGHT HANDED...

then,
we lengthen the bowstring,
by removing a half twist
off both ends of the bowstring.


----------



## cenochs

Allot of great info!


----------



## RatherBArchery

tag


----------



## gun

Tag


----------



## Peteyur

Why do I always read stuff like this after I have done it the hard way? Thanks for all the great info!!!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts

Peteyur said:


> Why do I always read stuff like this after I have done it the hard way? Thanks for all the great info!!!!!


Welcome.

I'll put almost everything into the DVD.
hehehehehe.


----------



## skinner2

Tag for later

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## TBradley

Not trying to hijack here, but what does tag, tagged or subscribed to thread mean? Does it let you know of updates to the thread so you don't have to search for the thread later?? Thanks!


----------



## nuts&bolts

TBradley said:


> Not trying to hijack here, but what does tag, tagged or subscribed to thread mean? Does it let you know of updates to the thread so you don't have to search for the thread later?? Thanks!




In the upper right hand corner,
you will see a button "THREAD TOOLS".

Click this button,
and a drop down menu pops up.

Select "SUBSCRIBE TO THIS THREAD"
and then,
you can get email notifications
if new stuff appears on this thread.


----------



## TBradley

Thanks!!


----------



## neromich

tag


----------



## jimmyk

subscribed! Thanks again Nuts&bolts!


----------



## onlyaspike

subscribed...thanks Alan....You are the MAN!!!


----------



## 67raiders

Ttt


----------



## joebrenner007

Awesome


----------



## lazyhubby70

Marking for later.

Lazy


----------



## MBaboon

I re-read parts of the Nuts & Bolts 150 pg pdf file trying to fix a low & right tear. I was gung ho to start some tiller adjusting tonight by loosening the upper limb bolt a little and tighten the bottom a little to correct the low tear first then go back to the "kitchen sink method". For whatever it is worth my D-Loop is already about 3/16 high. However I did not see this tiller method suggested anywhere in this thread. Should I go a different rout attacking the up down tear? I am without a bow press but intend to get the bowmaster soon after reading this thread.

Great info for us novices. THANK YOU!

Oh and to save any questions-Right handed, release, on a Hoyt Rampage XT with whisker biscuit. Shooting approximately 63#, DL 30, Gold Tip XT7595


----------



## nuts&bolts

MBaboon said:


> I re-read parts of the Nuts & Bolts 150 pg pdf file trying to fix a low & right tear. I was gung ho to start some tiller adjusting tonight by loosening the upper limb bolt a little and tighten the bottom a little to correct the low tear first then go back to the "kitchen sink method". For whatever it is worth my D-Loop is already about 3/16 high. However I did not see this tiller method suggested anywhere in this thread. Should I go a different rout attacking the up down tear? I am without a bow press but intend to get the bowmaster soon after reading this thread.
> 
> Great info for us novices. THANK YOU!
> 
> Oh and to save any questions-Right handed, release, on a Hoyt Rampage XT with whisker biscuit. Shooting approximately 63#, DL 30, Gold Tip XT7595


Creep Tune your bow, first.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning

Kitchen Sink tuning is post #5.

Creep Tuning is post #15.

Do Kitchen Sink first.

Finish with Creep Tuning last.


----------



## huntowen1

Mark for tuning


----------



## vastomper

Tagged

Pickle Holler


----------



## al302852

Thanks again Nuts&bolts!


----------



## Chris101

Tag


----------



## LLaBarr

Dst 40 left handed shooter. Bare shaft hitting 1 inch high and 2 inches left.


----------



## nuts&bolts

LLaBarr said:


> View attachment 1691255
> View attachment 1691255
> View attachment 1691255
> Dst 40 left handed shooter. Bare shaft hitting 1 inch high and 2 inches left.


Your photo is upside down.


----------



## nuts&bolts

So,
you are left handed...and shooting the OK Archery DST 40.

So,
put the arrow rest DEAD center so your arrow is pointed dead straight ahead.

Loosen your arrow rest horizontal adjust bolt
and slide the arrow rest sideways,
until your arrow is pointed DEAD STRAIGHT ahead, like your front stabilizer.

Then,
start with my KITCHEN SINK TUNING.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&highlight=tuning

*See POST #5.*

Pin a string with a weight on the end,
to the portable target.

Get the center of your portable target at SHOULDER HEIGHT.
So, use a table, use phone books, boxes, whatever is handy to move your portable target
HIGH enough,
so the center of the target is at SHOULDER height.

Now,
pin the string with a weight on the end.

First a fletched arrow...from only 5 FEET away.

MOVE the sight pins or scope dot windage setting (horizontal adjustment)
until you get this result.






I use a spool of bowstring material (dacron B50)
cuz it is cheap, and cuz it is very very loosely woven.

So,
when you can SPLIT the string fibers,
using whatever string material you have available,
then,
your sight pins windage setting is now perfect or very close to perfect.


NOW,
comes the hard part.

The DL test, using a bareshaft.

DO NOT touch the arrow rest.
DO NOT touch the sight pins windage setting.

FIRE a bareshaft, from only 5 FEET away.





If your bareshaft does NOT touch the weighted string,
if your bareshaft misses the WEIGHTED string to the LEFT,
when shooting only at 5 FEET...

then,
we must shorten the draw length say 1/4-inch. The DST 40 has a DL module,
as you know,
where you can adjust the DL in 1/4-inch adjustments.


Now,
if your photo is at 20 yards,
and your bareshaft is missing to the LEFT, slightly..

then,
PRESS the DST 40,
and
find the top axle,
right side
and ADD 1 full twist to shorten the cable.

Flip the bow upside down,
and
find the BOTTOM AXLE,
and make sure you are looking at the RIGHT SIDE of the bow,
the side of the bow that does NOT have the target sight mount
and on the BOTTOM AXLE,
you also add a full twist to shorten the cable.

So,
we have shortened the two cables ONE FULL TWIST,
at the TOP AXLE and the BOTTOM axle,
on the RIGHT SIDE of the bow.

The DST 40 is a shoot thru bow,
with 4 CABLES, two cables on each side.

Repeat this process
until your bareshafts and fletched arrows
have the same point of impact...at 20 yards.


----------



## LLaBarr

Thank you for the info, helps slot.


----------



## ice67

tagged for later


----------



## Martone

*Bare shaft?*







I shoot a RH Prime Defy, #60, 27", FMJ 400, 100G tip. Is this a torque issue?


----------



## Martone

Another view. Shot from 10 steps away


----------



## daduck

Marked for later

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nuts&bolts

Martone said:


> View attachment 1691393
> Another view. Shot from 10 steps away




Double the distance,
and try again.

If you have any issues,
then,
the LONGER distance
will cause the bareshaft to miss and have a different point of impact..

maybe missing inches to the left.

So,
if you shoot a bareshaft at double the distance
and
if your miss inches to the left..

then,
we have some tuning to do.


If the target is causing this,
then,
you will continue to have the same point of impact,
within your usual group size
at the double distance.


----------



## TheJBoss

Hello, I have a PSE Dominator and am a left handed short. The bow string runs about 1/2 inch to the right off the center of the riser. 

Do you recommend starting by centering the arrow rest on the riser or the string? I have been using a laser and centering the arrow rest to the string, however this puts my arrow rest to the right of center and has my arrow pointing slightly to the right. 

The bow seems to sit well like this, but I am looking for a good starting point before beginning the "kitchen sink tuning method".


----------



## Martone

Ok thanks. Will post some pics tomorrow at 20 steps


----------



## nuts&bolts

TheJBoss said:


> Hello, I have a PSE Dominator and am a left handed short. The bow string runs about 1/2 inch to the right off the center of the riser.
> 
> Do you recommend starting by centering the arrow rest on the riser or the string? I have been using a laser and centering the arrow rest to the string, however this puts my arrow rest to the right of center and has my arrow pointing slightly to the right.
> 
> The bow seems to sit well like this, but I am looking for a good starting point before beginning the "kitchen sink tuning method".


1) loosen the horizontal adjust bolt for your arrow rest

2) slide the arrow rest SIDEWAYS until the arrow is pointed DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD, just like your front stabilizer POINTS DEAD STRAIGHT ahead.
....this is just common sense, and is an excellent STARTING point

3) we will fine tune the arrow rest position, LATER during Kitchen Sink Tuning, so close is good enough for the STARTING point, before you tune...just saves you time later during tuning.

4) loosen the vertical adjust bolt for the arrow rest, and move the arrow rest HEIGHT to approximately the same as your arrow rest mounting bolt
...same thing, we will FINE tune the arrow rest HEIGHT, LATER.


----------



## nuts&bolts

TheJBoss said:


> Hello, I have a PSE Dominator and am a left handed short. The bow string runs about 1/2 inch to the right off the center of the riser.
> 
> Do you recommend starting by centering the arrow rest on the riser or the string? I have been using a laser and centering the arrow rest to the string, however this puts my arrow rest to the right of center and has my arrow pointing slightly to the right.
> 
> The bow seems to sit well like this, but I am looking for a good starting point before beginning the "kitchen sink tuning method".


So,
seems some folks get CONFUSED with the yoke leg tuning.

This is intended for FINE tuning purposes ONLY.

So,
the YOKE leg tuning is intended to be EIGHT separate adjustments.

So,
ADJUSTMENT #1...
try and ADD 1/2 twist to ONE END of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist in ONE end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #2...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *REMOVE 1/2 twist from the OTHER END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #3...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *ADD 1/2 twist to the FIRST END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #4...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *REMOVE 1/2 twist from the OTHER END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #5...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *ADD 1/2 twist to the FIRST END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #6...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *REMOVE 1/2 twist from the OTHER END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #7...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *ADD 1/2 twist to the FIRST END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.

ADJUSTMENT #8...
Back to the bow press,
cuz you need MORE adjustment,
so
try and *REMOVE 1/2 twist from the OTHER END* of the top axle (yoke cable leg tuning).

Go and shoot say a dozen arrows or two dozen arrows,
to settle the tension, to equalize the tension in the string and cables
and then, see if you have enough adjustment, with that half twist at the end of the top axle.


If you go back and forth to the press,
a total of EIGHT TIMES...

and you still need MORE adjustment..

STOP with the yoke cable tuning,
and
goto the BIG GUNS
and now

*tweak DRAW LENGTH
shorter or longer.*

MIGHT only need the draw length 1/16th inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 1/8th inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 3/16ths inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 1/4 inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 5/16ths inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 3/8ths inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 7/16ths inch shorter.
(twist the top and bottom of the bowstring...just twist a bit more on the bottom, to keep the peep pointed straight ahead).

MIGHT only need the draw length 1/2 inch shorter.
At THIS POINT, then we are talking new DL module or NEW fixed draw length cam.


----------



## thwackaddict

Hey, just discovered this thread! Haven't tried the Kitchen sink method yet but am going to try to remember to try it out.

I love perfection!


----------



## LLaBarr

Thanks Alan , 1/4 shorter dl and 1/2 twist both right cables it's smacking nocks with bare and fletched at 20 yrds .


----------



## nuts&bolts

LLaBarr said:


> Thanks Alan , 1/4 shorter dl and 1/2 twist both right cables it's smacking nocks with bare and fletched at 20 yrds .


EXCELLENT news!


----------



## Martone

*bare shaft*







Ok, this is at 20 steps. POI seems to have gotten wider. Pics of my form also


----------



## nuts&bolts

Martone said:


> View attachment 1692128
> Ok, this is at 20 steps. POI seems to have gotten wider. Pics of my form also


TINY adjustment.

TOP AXLE,
right side,
ADD 1/2-twist.


----------



## Martone




----------



## nuts&bolts

Martone said:


> View attachment 1692130


RIGHT handed or LEFT handed?


----------



## Martone




----------



## nuts&bolts

Martone said:


> View attachment 1692132


HEAD to TOE full frontal pic.

Like this.


----------



## Martone




----------



## Martone

Ok, here you go


----------



## Martone

Bow is a Prime Defy, no yoke


----------



## jab73

Marked.. good info

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nuts&bolts

Martone said:


> Ok, here you go
> View attachment 1692148


Find an outside corner of a door frame.

Pull your feet/shoes closer together, so your legs are VERTICAL.

Stop tilting your head sideways.
Head/neck tall and vertical.

PUSH the bow as FAR from your face, as you can,
up to 99% of your maximum reach capacity.

So,
new picture,
with ZERO sideways head tilt...

and
head/neck vertical, standing as TALL as you can.

Try to get the bow hand HIGHER, so that the top of bow hand thumb
is at the SAME height as your two shoulders.


----------



## nuts&bolts

1) leaning backwards

2) top of bow hand thumb is WAY WAY below top of two shoulders,
....so push the bow as far from your face as you can
....raise the top of bow hand thumb to the EXACT same height as the TOP of both level shoulders

3) push forward on the right leg so you can stand up straight

4) stand as tall as you can, and have the peep sight moved on your bowstring,
...when you have your release hand on top of your ear lobe



SEE THE YELLOW DOT.

When your knuckle (bottom of index finger)
is on top of your ear lobe...

with your neck vertical
with NO sideways tilt on your head
with your head LEVEL (front to back)...

then,
open your eyes
and see if you can look through your peep sight.

If not,
do NOT tilt your head sideways,
do NOT lean backwards,
do NOT drop the bow hand below shoulder height..

STAND tall,
head up and vertical
no sideways on your head,
bow hand (top of thumb) at the SAME height as your two shoulders.


and if the peep is too low
or
if the peep is too high...

MOVE the peep sight,
using a bow press..

do not contort your head into unusual positions,
to TRY and look through the peep sight.


----------



## jab73

Marked.. good info

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Alaska at heart

Posting so I have this one available for future review. Thanks Alan for all your willing assistance.


----------



## ctownshooter

marked....real good


----------



## dcaudle1

Tag


----------



## thwackaddict

Awesome info!


----------



## dmgiss

This guy is obviously a genius! Can't wait for the DVD!!


----------



## kootcha

Tagged


----------



## tomkat04

Great read

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## racinjason

great info


----------



## S.Alder

Thank You Nuts & Bolts. I need to print this.


----------



## Mik-B

7.62 said:


> How does this apply to a bow with split yokes - i.e. no left or right buss cable? Apparently my bow has a "floating" yoke.


Thank you, so much, Nuts and Bolts, for this!

I have one question. I also have the same cam system as this picture. I think I'm following along pretty well, but one thing is not clear for me.

To get the bareshafts to move left or right, our only reasonable option appears to be adjusting draw length. My question is, if we need to adjust the draw length, less than a module, is it better to adjust draw length by adding or removing twists to BOTH buss cables or by adding/removing twists from the bow string?


----------



## Timinator

Tagged


----------



## nuts&bolts

Mik-B said:


> Thank you, so much, Nuts and Bolts, for this!
> 
> I have one question. I also have the same cam system as this picture. I think I'm following along pretty well, but one thing is not clear for me.
> 
> To get the bareshafts to move left or right, our only reasonable option appears to be adjusting draw length. My question is, if we need to adjust the draw length, less than a module, is it better to adjust draw length by adding or removing twists to BOTH buss cables or by adding/removing twists from the bow string?


I would work the bowstring
On this bow.


----------



## jbra

tagged


----------



## Roo223

This is the best method there is. Thanks nuts and bolts


----------



## Smiley1215

I to would like to say thanks to nuts n bolts. I just finished this process for the furst tine and got bareshafts straight and touching fletched shafts at 40 yards. First bow ive ever had do this and with this step by step process its so easy. I just installed n new set of ProLine strings so thought id give it try. Im ready fir deer season now.


----------



## bowscience

Marked


----------



## Rollie83

Saved for later


----------



## Santhalas

Thanks nuts and bolts!


----------



## CamoCop

tagged


----------



## K.G.K.

nuts&bolts said:


> With any binary cam system....
> 
> gotta make sure that both cables are EXACTLY the same tension....same length not good enough.
> 
> I like to put both cables on a stretching device,
> and then,
> I will PLUCK the top cable on the stretcher
> and LISTEN to the tone.
> 
> Then,
> since both cables are on the stretcher at the same time...
> then,
> I PLUCK the bottom cable on the stretcher.
> 
> PLUCK UPPER cable.
> PLUCK LOWER cable.
> 
> Confirm that both cables are giving off the SAME EXACT tone.
> 
> If one cable SOUNDS like a lower note..
> then,
> I loosen the stretching device,
> and add a half twist to the lower sounding cable...
> 
> and then bring up the tension nice and tight,
> and
> then PLUCK the upper cable
> and
> then PLUCK the lower cable.
> 
> LISTEN to the TONE.
> 
> Then,
> when you have the SAME EXACT TONE...
> then,
> both cables are the SAME EXACT tension.
> 
> Binary cam bows are extemely sensitive to cable pressure.


What is the result of difference in tension? 

My Insanity consistently has an 1/4"-1/3" uptear in paper. I took 1/2 twist out of the cable that attaches to the lower cam so now the lower cam draw stop touches the cable slightly before the upper cam touches its respective cable and thus giving me a perfect bullet hole with the bare shaft from 10' (assuming I shoot with good form). If I put the twist back in the cable and then manipulate the upper cam rather than the lower to achieve the same 1/8" gap meaning the upper cam is still slightly behind the lower cam, I don't get the same result in my shot.

SO, for my bow, the cable connecting the lower cam has to be untwisted 1/2 turn so that the lower cam touches the cable before the upper by 1/8" to achieve the right result in my shot or bare shaft arrow flight.

Without boring you, all specs are good, i.e. ata, tiller, brace, draw length and arrow spine.


----------



## weweber3

Tag


----------



## nuts&bolts

K.G.K. said:


> What is the result of difference in tension?
> 
> My Insanity consistently has an 1/4"-1/3" uptear in paper. I took 1/2 twist out of the cable that attaches to the lower cam so now the lower cam draw stop touches the cable slightly before the upper cam touches its respective cable and thus giving me a perfect bullet hole with the bare shaft from 10' (assuming I shoot with good form). If I put the twist back in the cable and then manipulate the upper cam rather than the lower to achieve the same 1/8" gap meaning the upper cam is still slightly behind the lower cam, I don't get the same result in my shot.
> 
> SO, for my bow, the cable connecting the lower cam has to be untwisted 1/2 turn so that the lower cam touches the cable before the upper by 1/8" to achieve the right result in my shot or bare shaft arrow flight.
> 
> Without boring you, all specs are good, i.e. ata, tiller, brace, draw length and arrow spine.


The Insanity(tm) CPX(tm) bow
is not a binary cam bow.

Here is the BowTech Advertisement for the OVERDRIVE BINARY(tm) CAM.

If you look closely at the advertisement,
you see that the OVERDRIVE cam system
is a DUAL CAM system.


----------



## nuts&bolts

K.G.K. said:


> What is the result of difference in tension?
> 
> My Insanity consistently has an 1/4"-1/3" uptear in paper. I took 1/2 twist out of the cable that attaches to the lower cam so now the lower cam draw stop touches the cable slightly before the upper cam touches its respective cable and thus giving me a perfect bullet hole with the bare shaft from 10' (assuming I shoot with good form). If I put the twist back in the cable and then manipulate the upper cam rather than the lower to achieve the same 1/8" gap meaning the upper cam is still slightly behind the lower cam, I don't get the same result in my shot.
> 
> SO, for my bow, the cable connecting the lower cam has to be untwisted 1/2 turn so that the lower cam touches the cable before the upper by 1/8" to achieve the right result in my shot or bare shaft arrow flight.
> 
> Without boring you, all specs are good, i.e. ata, tiller, brace, draw length and arrow spine.




You have TWO YOKE cables.

A yoke cable has three end loops,
and at the top axle,
you see two end loops for the TOP of yoke cable #1.

So,
when two cams hit the cables at the same moment,
this is cam SYNC.....not timing.

If you install a bowstring that is 24-inches TOO SHORT,
then,
the cam starting rotation position,
is all out of whack,
and this is cam TIMING.

Put a dot of paint on the top cam,
at the pointy part.

The pointy part of the top cam on the BowTech Insanity
points straight down,
at the 6-o'clock MINUTE hand position.

The pointy part of the bottom cam on the BowTech Insanity
points straight up,
at the 12-o'clock MINUTE hand position.

The two POINTY parts point at each other.

CLOCK MINUTE hand position.
TIMING.

When you install a bowstring that is 24-inches TOO SHORT,
then the cams wrap around into strange positions,
so,
with the bow on your kitchen table,
at rest,
the two DOTS of PAINT are no longer at the 6-o'clock
and the 12-o'clock MINUTE hand positions on a CLOCK.

The TOP dot of paint may point at 8-o'clock.
The BOTTOM dot of paint may point at 10-o'clock.

TIMING...minute hand positions on a clock.
LONGER bowstring changes your CAM timing.
SHORTER bowstring changes your CAM timing.

FINE TUNING your cable,
this is called CREEP TUNING,
where you change the CAM SYNC ON PURPOSE...

to
SUPER DUPER TUNE
to 
FINE TUNE
to
CUSTOM ADJUST
to
ON PURPOSE change the cam SYNC
to get the best results.


So,
since you do NOT have a binary cam bow,
since you have a TWIN CAM bow...

then,
you are doing everything correct,
to FINE TUNE the cam sync,
to get the BEST results.

RESULTS based tuning.

That is ALL that matters.

Having your cams with DEAD EVEN SYNC
is NOT the goal.

Having level nock travel IS the goal.

So,
because your two cams are NOT directly tied to each other...

a BINARY cam bow uses two control cables (only 2 end loops...no connection to the axles)
a TWIN cam bow uses two YOKE cables (uses three end loops...direct connection to the axles)

we custom tune a TWIN CAM bow, and ON PURPOSE, throw off the cam sync,
to get the BEST results for each shooter.

If you have three shooters,
then,
we have THREE different bow hand wrists
and
we have THREE different bow hand pressure spreads on the grip
and
we have ONE shooter who puts MORE pressure at the TOP of the grip
and
we have ONE shooter who puts MORE pressure at the BOTTOM of the grip
and
we have ONE shooter who puts EQUAL pressure across the entire GRIP....top to bottom.


So,
if all THREE shooters shoot a BowTech Insanity
with the OVERDRIVE Binary(tm) *DUAL CAM* system..

then,
when each shooter has CUSTOM TUNED his/her bow
to get the BEST RESULTS...

the cam SYNC....will be different on each bow,
the cam SYNC...will NOT be exactly the same on each bow.

Enjoy your PERFECTLY tuned bow,
where the cam SYNC has been CUSTOM TUNEd to perfection...
OUT of sync, 
ON PURPOSE,
cuz
this is what you do for a TWIN cam bow...to get the best RESULTS...

cuz,
we are all about RESULTS, right?

and not how the cam sync LOOKs.


----------



## K.G.K.

nuts&bolts said:


> You have TWO YOKE cables.
> 
> A yoke cable has three end loops,
> and at the top axle,
> you see two end loops for the TOP of yoke cable #1.
> 
> So,
> when two cams hit the cables at the same moment,
> this is cam SYNC.....not timing.
> 
> If you install a bowstring that is 24-inches TOO SHORT,
> then,
> the cam starting rotation position,
> is all out of whack,
> and this is cam TIMING.
> 
> Put a dot of paint on the top cam,
> at the pointy part.
> 
> The pointy part of the top cam on the BowTech Insanity
> points straight down,
> at the 6-o'clock MINUTE hand position.
> 
> The pointy part of the bottom cam on the BowTech Insanity
> points straight up,
> at the 12-o'clock MINUTE hand position.
> 
> The two POINTY parts point at each other.
> 
> CLOCK MINUTE hand position.
> TIMING.
> 
> When you install a bowstring that is 24-inches TOO SHORT,
> then the cams wrap around into strange positions,
> so,
> with the bow on your kitchen table,
> at rest,
> the two DOTS of PAINT are no longer at the 6-o'clock
> and the 12-o'clock MINUTE hand positions on a CLOCK.
> 
> The TOP dot of paint may point at 8-o'clock.
> The BOTTOM dot of paint may point at 10-o'clock.
> 
> TIMING...minute hand positions on a clock.
> LONGER bowstring changes your CAM timing.
> SHORTER bowstring changes your CAM timing.
> 
> FINE TUNING your cable,
> this is called CREEP TUNING,
> where you change the CAM SYNC ON PURPOSE...
> 
> to
> SUPER DUPER TUNE
> to
> FINE TUNE
> to
> CUSTOM ADJUST
> to
> ON PURPOSE change the cam SYNC
> to get the best results.
> 
> 
> So,
> since you do NOT have a binary cam bow,
> since you have a TWIN CAM bow...
> 
> then,
> you are doing everything correct,
> to FINE TUNE the cam sync,
> to get the BEST results.
> 
> RESULTS based tuning.
> 
> That is ALL that matters.
> 
> Having your cams with DEAD EVEN SYNC
> is NOT the goal.
> 
> Having level nock travel IS the goal.
> 
> So,
> because your two cams are NOT directly tied to each other...
> 
> a BINARY cam bow uses two control cables (only 2 end loops...no connection to the axles)
> a TWIN cam bow uses two YOKE cables (uses three end loops...direct connection to the axles)
> 
> we custom tune a TWIN CAM bow, and ON PURPOSE, throw off the cam sync,
> to get the BEST results for each shooter.
> 
> If you have three shooters,
> then,
> we have THREE different bow hand wrists
> and
> we have THREE different bow hand pressure spreads on the grip
> and
> we have ONE shooter who puts MORE pressure at the TOP of the grip
> and
> we have ONE shooter who puts MORE pressure at the BOTTOM of the grip
> and
> we have ONE shooter who puts EQUAL pressure across the entire GRIP....top to bottom.
> 
> 
> So,
> if all THREE shooters shoot a BowTech Insanity
> with the OVERDRIVE Binary(tm) *DUAL CAM* system..
> 
> then,
> when each shooter has CUSTOM TUNED his/her bow
> to get the BEST RESULTS...
> 
> the cam SYNC....will be different on each bow,
> the cam SYNC...will NOT be exactly the same on each bow.
> 
> Enjoy your PERFECTLY tuned bow,
> where the cam SYNC has been CUSTOM TUNEd to perfection...
> OUT of sync,
> ON PURPOSE,
> cuz
> this is what you do for a TWIN cam bow...to get the best RESULTS...
> 
> cuz,
> we are all about RESULTS, right?
> 
> and not how the cam sync LOOKs.


When fine tuning the cam sync, is that adversely affecting the affective let off? My upper cam is slightly advance. My let off is 65% but should be 80%

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## redman

great info


----------



## Dnix

I have a bow tuning question.
I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser. 
My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.

The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.


----------



## nuts&bolts

K.G.K. said:


> When fine tuning the cam sync, is that adversely affecting the affective let off? My upper cam is slightly advance. My let off is 65% but should be 80%
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


http://www.bowtecharchery.com/#/technologyBreakdown?r=products_technology&i=5

Check the draw length module position,
and
that you have your draw stop in the correct position.

The letoff percentage should be 80%.

If you are getting 65% letoff,
obviously,
you are getting 15% too much holding weight (holding weight is too high).

So,
if the draw stop is set TOO SHORT,
stopping the cam rotation EARLY...
this is one way the holding weight would be 15% TOO HIGH.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have a bow tuning question.
> I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser.
> My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.
> 
> The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.


A LASER is just a tool,
to get you to a STARTING point.

Years ago,
folks used a BENT coat hanger wire,
to figure out the starting point for the arrow rest.

Other folks
put a allen wrench in each limb bolt
and stretch a bungee cord or long series of RUBBER bands,
to get to the STARTING POINT...for the arrow rest.

So,
I say,
FORGET the rubber bands,
FORGET the bent coat hanger wire,
Temporarily FORGET the laser finder...

and
use RESULTS based tuning.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have a bow tuning question.
> I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser.
> My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.
> 
> The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.



So,
put away the LASER,
for a week,
and let's try an experiment.

USE a ruler
to set the arrow shaft centerline APPROXIMATELY 13/16ths away from the riser.

This the STARTING POINT.

We will fine tune the arrow rest horizontal position,
LATER,
during the final stages of KITCHEN SINK TUNING.

We have to start SOMEWHERE,
so 13/16ths is the STARTING point.

There is NO WAY,
to skip the HARD WORK,
of hitting the practice range,
and shooting groups of fletched arrows,
and
using your ARROW REST GROUPING RESULTS...

there's that word again,

using your RESULTS,
the position of your Fletched Arrow groups...

to FINE TUNE,
to SUPER TUNE
to MICRO TUNE
your arrow rest position.

ALL tuning tools,
help you save time,
when you are at the practice range,
shooting LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of fletched arrow groups.

No amount of rubber bands and allen wrenches,
no amount of using a bent coat hanger wire
no amount of using a LASER...

can save you from the TIME on the practice range,
to figure out the POSITION of your fletched arrow groups
in relation to the bullseye on the target face.

GOTTA shoot fletched arrow groups
and get the arrow groups CENTERED on the bullseye.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have a bow tuning question.
> I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser.
> My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.
> 
> The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.



So,
this is the ENTIRE PURPOSE of this thread.

I have a set of instructions,
tests,
experiments,
and
when you try these tests,
IN ORDER...

then,
you will be shooting BETTER than before.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have a bow tuning question.
> I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser.
> My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.
> 
> The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.



STEP 1: move the arrow rest sideways, until the centerline of your arrow shaft is APPROXIMATELY 13/16ths away from the riser.
...........this is a STARTING POINT only, and we will fine tune the arrow rest horizontal position LATER...using RESULTS based tuning.

STEP 2: set the arrow rest height, so that the middle of the arrow shaft, is at the same height as the middle of the arrow rest bolt...APPROXIMATELY.

STEP 3: set the d-loop position, so that the arrow is DEAD LEVEL, parallel to your roller guard frame.
...........When the bow is vertical, then the roller guard frame will be horizontal, and move the d-loop UP or DOWN, until the arrow is DEAD parallel to the roller guard frame.
...........Once your d-loop is set, NEVER TOUCH your d-loop again. All further tuning, will assume the d-loop NEVER is touched again.,


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have a bow tuning question.
> I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser.
> My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.
> 
> The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.


STEP 4:

Now,
start with Kitchen Sink Tuning.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1844443&page=9

Goto Post #5 on the first page of this thread.


Find a length of string,
and put a weight on the end.

Pin the weighted string to a target.

Set up the target on a table and a stack of boxes,
so that the middle of your portable target
is at YOUR shoulder height.

With the arrow rest moved SIDEWAYS,
so your arrow centerline is ROUGHLY 13/16ths away from the riser...

FIRE a fletched arrow at the string FROM ONLY 5 FEET AWAY.





When shooting at only 5 FEET AWAY,
do NOT TOUCH THE ARROW REST.

*ONLY move the sight pins windage LEFT or RIGHT,
until you can SPLIT THE WEIGHTED STRING.*


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have a bow tuning question.
> I have an EZE-Eye Laser finder ( http://easyeyeoutdoors.com/collections/eze-center-lta ) that I have used to check to see that my arrow is directly inline with string. Until recently, I could only do this with my site removed. Last week I modified the EZE-Eye in a way that it can be mounted on the flat side of my Axcel Armortech site which is the same face that the site mounts to the bow. What troubles me is that when my bow is shooting well and I rotate the EZE-Eye Laser to face my pins, I notice that my pins are not directly inline with the laser, they are over to the Right sie of the laser.
> My question is this normal? I do notice that if I deliberately torque the bow I can move the laser left and right, but with a very neutral grip, the laser remains off to the right. If I adjust the windage so that the pins are inline with the laser, the arrows shoot way off to the left.
> 
> The bow is a 2012 Hoyt Carbon Matrix shooting Carbon Express Maxima Hunter arrows.


AFTER you can SPLIT the weighted string,
with a fletched arrow,
firing from ONLY 5 FEET away...

where you ONLY TWEAKED the sight pins windage setting,
to do this...

then,
try a bareshaft.








THIS IS A DRAW LENGTH TEST.

If you are right handed,
and your bareshaft misses off to the RIGHT...

then,
shorten the draw length setting on your bow.


----------



## Dnix

I have been using the "Kitchen Sink" method of tuning my bow and it is shooting pretty good, although I would like to continue to tweak it into a state where the only problems are me (Form). Fletched arows and bare shafts are splitting the string at 5 feet. The only time they are off is because of form errors which I can tell as soon as I shoot. If I repeat the test the arrows will once agin split the string.
I just thought it was weird that my pins are not directly inline with the axis of the arrow shaft, or at least thats the way it appears.


----------



## nuts&bolts

When you SHORTEN the bow draw length,
we want THESE results.



So,
when you shorten the bow draw length 1/2-inch,
do NOT bend your bow arm more than before.

When you shorten the bow draw length 1/2-inch,
DO use the EXACT SAME anchor touch points on your face.

So,
when you shorten the bow draw length 1/2-inch,
then,
obviously,
the nock is now 1/2-inch CLOSER to the riser.

So,
this means,
your hips must move towards your RIGHT ANKLE
and
your LEFT ARM PIT must move FORWARDS of your LEFT ANKLE.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have been using the "Kitchen Sink" method of tuning my bow and it is shooting pretty good, although I would like to continue to tweak it into a state where the only problems are me (Form). Fletched arows and bare shafts are splitting the string at 5 feet. The only time they are off is because of form errors which I can tell as soon as I shoot. If I repeat the test the arrows will once agin split the string.
> I just thought it was weird that my pins are not directly inline with the axis of the arrow shaft, or at least thats the way it appears.


So,
post up a photo
of yourself at full draw,
bow arm horizontal.

IF you are splitting the string at 5 FEET...

then,
try 10 feet.

IT is much more difficult.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Dnix said:


> I have been using the "Kitchen Sink" method of tuning my bow and it is shooting pretty good, although I would like to continue to tweak it into a state where the only problems are me (Form). Fletched arows and bare shafts are splitting the string at 5 feet. The only time they are off is because of form errors which I can tell as soon as I shoot. If I repeat the test the arrows will once agin split the string.
> I just thought it was weird that my pins are not directly inline with the axis of the arrow shaft, or at least thats the way it appears.


The pins will NEVER be exactly in line with the axis of the arrow,
when a bow has a roller guard or a cable guard.

The ONLY TIME,
pions will be in line with the axis of the arrow,
is a shoot thru cable system bow.


----------



## golfernash

Great info here!


----------



## BTShooter

Tagged, thanks for the info!!


----------



## racinjason

so i am right handed and at 10 yards i have bare shafts hitting 1" high and 1" right with the nock low and left. so i am planning on moving my d-loop up and add a twist to my left yoke and take one out of the right. does 1 full twist sound about right on each side & am i correct with witch leg i am moving in and out. Thanks for all your help nuts and bolts cant wait for the video!!! im shooting a PSE EVO 7


----------



## racinjason

ok i did 2 twists each side of the yoke and raised my d loop and the arrow is slightly nock high at rest. bare shafts are hitting same as fletched but still nock low at 10 yards. how do i fix that?


----------



## nuts&bolts

racinjason said:


> so i am right handed and at 10 yards i have bare shafts hitting 1" high and 1" right with the nock low and left. so i am planning on moving my d-loop up and add a twist to my left yoke and take one out of the right. does 1 full twist sound about right on each side & am i correct with witch leg i am moving in and out. Thanks for all your help nuts and bolts cant wait for the video!!! im shooting a PSE EVO 7


Two step process.

1) first, gotta fix the sideways point of impact for the bareshafts.
....make sure you are ONLY shooting at a bullseye at your EXACT shoulder height.
....make sure your arrow rest position is DEAD straight ahead...your arrow points DEAD straight ahead, when the bow is at rest


----------



## nuts&bolts

racinjason said:


> ok i did 2 twists each side of the yoke and raised my d loop and the arrow is slightly nock high at rest. bare shafts are hitting same as fletched but still nock low at 10 yards. how do i fix that?


2) move your d-loop back down.
....with the bow at rest,
....with the arrow rest HEIGHT, set so the arrow shaft is at the SAME height as the arrow rest bolt
....with your drop away arrow rest arm at the FULL UP POSITION

....move the d-loop back down,
....so that your arrow is DEAD LEVEL....when the bow is vertical.

Once the d-loop is BACK DOWN,
NEVER touch your d-loop again.


We will tune the bow,
AROUND the d-loop,
assuming that you NEVER touch the d-loop again.


----------



## nuts&bolts

racinjason said:


> ok i did 2 twists each side of the yoke and raised my d loop and the arrow is slightly nock high at rest. bare shafts are hitting same as fletched but still nock low at 10 yards. how do i fix that?


Soooooo,
AFTER you get the d-loop back to the original position,
where the arrow rest arm is in the FULL UP position,
and
where the arrow is *NOT* slightly nock high with the bow at rest....
where the arrow is DEAD LEVEL, with the bow at rest....


----------



## nuts&bolts

racinjason said:


> ok i did 2 twists each side of the yoke and raised my d loop and the arrow is slightly nock high at rest. bare shafts are hitting same as fletched but still nock low at 10 yards. how do i fix that?


FIND the control cable.

This is the cable with ONLY two end loops.

Put your fingers on the cable with only TWO end loops,
and then,
slide your fingers all the way up to the top cam,
and you will find the end loop
for the TOP of the control cable.

Press your bow,
relax the rigging,
remove 1/2 twist,
from the TOP of the control cable.

Test your bareshafts again,
firing at a bullseye at YOUR EXACT shoulder height.

Repeat this process,
until your bareshafts are hitting at the SAME height,
as your fletched arrows.


----------



## racinjason

nuts&bolts said:


> FIND the control cable.
> 
> This is the cable with ONLY two end loops.
> 
> Put your fingers on the cable with only TWO end loops,
> and then,
> slide your fingers all the way up to the top cam,
> and you will find the end loop
> for the TOP of the control cable.
> 
> Press your bow,
> relax the rigging,
> remove 1/2 twist,
> from the TOP of the control cable.
> 
> Test your bareshafts again,
> firing at a bullseye at YOUR EXACT shoulder height.
> 
> Repeat this process,
> until your bareshafts are hitting at the SAME height,
> as your fletched arrows.



thanks i'll get to work on it and see what happens


----------



## racinjason

will this help my top draw stop to hit earlier? i noticed yesterday that my bottom stop was hitting first


nuts&bolts said:


> FIND the control cable.
> 
> This is the cable with ONLY two end loops.
> 
> Put your fingers on the cable with only TWO end loops,
> and then,
> slide your fingers all the way up to the top cam,
> and you will find the end loop
> for the TOP of the control cable.
> 
> Press your bow,
> relax the rigging,
> remove 1/2 twist,
> from the TOP of the control cable.
> 
> Test your bareshafts again,
> firing at a bullseye at YOUR EXACT shoulder height.
> 
> Repeat this process,
> until your bareshafts are hitting at the SAME height,
> as your fletched arrows.


----------



## nuts&bolts

racinjason said:


> will this help my top draw stop to hit earlier? i noticed yesterday that my bottom stop was hitting first


Results based tuning.

If when YOU shoot your bow,
and the bareshafts are not flying level
(you are aiming at a bullseye at YOUR exact shoulder height)...

then,
if your bareshafts are impacting LOWER than your fletched arrows
if your bareshafts are flying with the BACK end higher than your front end of the bareshaft...

try REMOVING half twists
on the top of the control cable,
and see if this gets your bareshafts impacting WITH your fletched arrows...SAME point of impact.


----------



## 6APPEAL

Subscribed.


----------



## tripleb2431

nuts&bolts said:


> Results based tuning.
> 
> If when YOU shoot your bow,
> and the bareshafts are not flying level
> (you are aiming at a bullseye at YOUR exact shoulder height)...
> 
> then,
> if your bareshafts are impacting LOWER than your fletched arrows
> if your bareshafts are flying with the BACK end higher than your front end of the bareshaft...
> 
> try REMOVING half twists
> on the top of the control cable,
> and see if this gets your bareshafts impacting WITH your fletched arrows...SAME point of impact.


Just trying to learn more why did you choose to take twist out of top control as opposed to putting twist in bottom bus? Can you do either or or does taking it out of top control have advantage? I know one advantage is if your shooting drop away not touching buss helps not to mess with rest timing but is there any other reason u said top control? Thanks again like I said just trying to learn more info


----------



## nuts&bolts

tripleb2431 said:


> Just trying to learn more why did you choose to take twist out of top control as opposed to putting twist in bottom bus? Can you do either or or does taking it out of top control have advantage? I know one advantage is if your shooting drop away not touching buss helps not to mess with rest timing but is there any other reason u said top control? Thanks again like I said just trying to learn more info


The control cable is attached to a peg,
on the EDGE of the top cam.

Since the idea behind CREEP TUNING
is to change the cam starting rotation position...

then,
using the control cable,
which attaches DIRECTLY to the outside edge of the top cam,
is a DIRECT adjustment.


You get very very FINE control
of the cam rotation starting position,
cuz,
the control cable,
top end loop
is attached to a peg
attached to the OUTSIDE edge of the top cam.


----------



## nuts&bolts

tripleb2431 said:


> Just trying to learn more why did you choose to take twist out of top control as opposed to putting twist in bottom bus? Can you do either or or does taking it out of top control have advantage? I know one advantage is if your shooting drop away not touching buss helps not to mess with rest timing but is there any other reason u said top control? Thanks again like I said just trying to learn more info


So,
what happens when you work the buss cable?

Well,
if you add twists to the buss cable,
you SHRINK the ATA of the bow,
and
when you SHRINK the ATA of the bow,
then,
the top and bottom axles are CLOSER together.

Since the string is the SAME length as before,
when you SQUEEZE the two axles closer together...

then,
the top and bottom cams will CHANGE their starting rotation position.

So,
shortening the buss cable
is an INDIRECT change to the starting cam rotation position.

Different strokes for different folks.

I MUCH prefer using the control cable
for cam sync adjustments,
because I can design the control cable twists (much longer twists)
to allow for a FINE TUNING of the cam rotation position.

Both ways will work.


----------



## tripleb2431

Thanks for the explanation :thumbs_up


----------



## Rollie83

saved for later


----------



## 7.62

I set up my center shot and DL and, after tweaking pins for fletched arrows, right off the bat at 5 feet fletched and bareshaft arrows were hitting the string. Moved out to 20 yards and my groups with fletched arrows were centered around bullseye when I did my part (I did not have to move my rest at all). It seems that I can assume from this that my DL was correct. Now, the kitchen sink method does not mention anything about firing bareshafts from beyond 5 ft. But I have shot several bareshafts from 20 yards and they are landing to the left of the x-ring by a good bit (also low, if I remember correctly). This is an indication of...what? Should we expect our bareshafts to group with our fletched arrows at any distance or am I taking this too far?

Also, found that my broadheads are not grouping with my field points. I cannot seem to get a consistent group out of them; just when I think I can nail down how they miss the X, I get a flier. This makes me wonder if the orientation of the broadhead (two main blades, two smaller blades) in relation to the fletchings affects arrow flight. 

Rages are a different story as they group much better, but I am not sure I want to hunt with them. I'd really like to hunt with the fixed blades.

Just for reference, I have the Mission Ballistic, which has a floating yoke. Alan has looked at this before (top of page 6 of this thread) and has said that for all intents and purposes, my bow has NO yoke (not adjustable, anyway).


----------



## Caged Archer

I have been shooting a bow for a couple years now and just really learned that shooting a bow off Bass Pros rack isn't what you are suppose to do. I have since bought a Hoyt Turbo and am a die hard archer. I was a sniper on SEAL team two so archery is very humbling and I am probably over critical but the information on this site has helped and probably created ab obsession to get my bow perfect. 

I am disappointed I am currently out of tow on business and was not able to attend the tuning seminar. I have read many post from nuts and bolts, have read his guide once but need to re read a couple times to fully grasp it all. Nuts and bolts needs to have a blog on this site! Or at least a section for him to share his knowledge. Publish a book and it should be required reading to all new archers. I really hope there is another tuning seminar.

Thank everyone for your help and feeding my obsession for the perfect bow.


----------



## tripleb2431

7.62 said:


> I set up my center shot and DL and, after tweaking pins for fletched arrows, right off the bat at 5 feet fletched and bareshaft arrows were hitting the string. Moved out to 20 yards and my groups with fletched arrows were centered around bullseye when I did my part (I did not have to move my rest at all). It seems that I can assume from this that my DL was correct. Now, the kitchen sink method does not mention anything about firing bareshafts from beyond 5 ft. But I have shot several bareshafts from 20 yards and they are landing to the left of the x-ring by a good bit (also low, if I remember correctly). This is an indication of...what? Should we expect our bareshafts to group with our fletched arrows at any distance or am I taking this too far?
> 
> Also, found that my broadheads are not grouping with my field points. I cannot seem to get a consistent group out of them; just when I think I can nail down how they miss the X, I get a flier. This makes me wonder if the orientation of the broadhead (two main blades, two smaller blades) in relation to the fletchings affects arrow flight.
> 
> Rages are a different story as they group much better, but I am not sure I want to hunt with them. I'd really like to hunt with the fixed blades.
> 
> Just for reference, I have the Mission Ballistic, which has a floating yoke. Alan has looked at this before (top of page 6 of this thread) and has said that for all intents and purposes, my bow has NO yoke (not adjustable, anyway).


Yes as long as your form is spot on bare shafts should group with fletched out to long range I've done mine out to 50 and they were dead on with fletched now for your bow with no yokes probably going to have to really fine tune your Dl more to pull those bare shafts over to match fletched

Now as for your BH not being consistent its probably one of two things spin test BH make sure there's no wobble if there's no wobble than you probably have wrong spine cause even though bow is not tuned properly yet the BH should still be grouping with each other


----------



## nuts&bolts

Caged Archer said:


> I have been shooting a bow for a couple years now and just really learned that shooting a bow off Bass Pros rack isn't what you are suppose to do. I have since bought a Hoyt Turbo and am a die hard archer. I was a sniper on SEAL team two so archery is very humbling and I am probably over critical but the information on this site has helped and probably created ab obsession to get my bow perfect.
> 
> I am disappointed I am currently out of tow on business and was not able to attend the tuning seminar. I have read many post from nuts and bolts, have read his guide once but need to re read a couple times to fully grasp it all. Nuts and bolts needs to have a blog on this site! Or at least a section for him to share his knowledge. Publish a book and it should be required reading to all new archers. I really hope there is another tuning seminar.
> 
> Thank everyone for your help and feeding my obsession for the perfect bow.


Send me a pm,
and I can explain my methods.

You will understand very very quickly,
some of my methods.


----------



## Dewboy

Tfl


----------



## nuts&bolts

7.62 said:


> I set up my center shot and DL and, after tweaking pins for fletched arrows, right off the bat at 5 feet fletched and bareshaft arrows were hitting the string. Moved out to 20 yards and my groups with fletched arrows were centered around bullseye when I did my part (I did not have to move my rest at all). It seems that I can assume from this that my DL was correct. Now, the kitchen sink method does not mention anything about firing bareshafts from beyond 5 ft. But I have shot several bareshafts from 20 yards and they are landing to the left of the x-ring by a good bit (also low, if I remember correctly). This is an indication of...what? Should we expect our bareshafts to group with our fletched arrows at any distance or am I taking this too far?
> 
> Also, found that my broadheads are not grouping with my field points. I cannot seem to get a consistent group out of them; just when I think I can nail down how they miss the X, I get a flier. This makes me wonder if the orientation of the broadhead (two main blades, two smaller blades) in relation to the fletchings affects arrow flight.
> 
> Rages are a different story as they group much better, but I am not sure I want to hunt with them. I'd really like to hunt with the fixed blades.
> 
> Just for reference, I have the Mission Ballistic, which has a floating yoke. Alan has looked at this before (top of page 6 of this thread) and has said that for all intents and purposes, my bow has NO yoke (not adjustable, anyway).


Hello 7.62

Send me a pm,
and I can work with you,
about how to tune your Mission Ballistic
with the "floating yoke" system,
and
things for you to try...

to get your fixed broadheads
to hit closer to your field points.

Need to know if you are RIGHT or LEFT handed.

Send me a pm.


----------



## boonecoon

subscribed. awesome read, definitely want to dig into this 100% but im just too afraid to touch anything until season is over. Thank you for sharing all the knowledge


----------



## gsxr_kid

nice


----------



## pdonnafi

Mnhdu. 




,b nbcckhssnvxvxvXHBxvbdgdwrn


----------



## Apollo 1

Good stuff. Does it pay to adjust the tiller so that the bow holds steady (and even to adjust vertical grouping) or is it better to set the tiller even (or at least turn out the limb bolts the same amount) and use the methods you describe here. Also, if all these adjustments are so critical why should one expect arrows with no fletching (therefore lighter and different dynamic spine) shoot the same as arrows with fletching (heavier and more weight at nock end)? I fletched all my Hexx's and not sure if I can get the fletching off one without ruining the stupid wrap. Any way to adjust cam lean without a bare shaft?


----------



## nuts&bolts

Apollo 1 said:


> Good stuff. Does it pay to adjust the tiller so that the bow holds steady (and even to adjust vertical grouping) or is it better to set the tiller even (or at least turn out the limb bolts the same amount) and use the methods you describe here. Also, if all these adjustments are so critical why should one expect arrows with no fletching (therefore lighter and different dynamic spine) shoot the same as arrows with fletching (heavier and more weight at nock end)? I fletched all my Hexx's and not sure if I can get the fletching off one without ruining the stupid wrap. Any way to adjust cam lean without a bare shaft?


LEave the bow at even tiller for now.

Go through my SIX STEPs to Perfection.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2128129

Use a utility knife
and cut off the vane, and leave behind the base of the vane.

Shooters have been shooting bareshafts and fletched,
out to 60 yards and even 100 yards,
and getting them to group together.

Of course,
shooting bareshafts beyond 20 yards,
is ONLY for the very very very advanced shooters.

Since you are asking,
you have never shot bareshafts before...

so try at 5 yards and 10 yards,
and 15 yards,
and work your way up to 20 yards.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Bareshaft
splitting a single strand of dacron bowstring material at 2 yards,
is a BASIC level exercise.

When you can do this ONE time inside of 30 minutes,
that's a good start.

When you can SPLIT the single strand of a dacron B50 bowstring material,
twice or three times inside of 30 minutes....at 2 yards away...

then,
try 3 yards. This is MUCH MUCH harder to do.


----------



## nuts&bolts

BearArcher1980 has been training with my methods,
I coached him on and off for the past year,
COMPLETELY online.

This is what he can do at 5 YARDS.










He wanted a new training exercise to try inside his garage,
during the winter months.


----------



## Big Tony

Nuts & Bolts is a wealth of information. Can't wait for the DVD


----------



## aaron.sterud

Tag


----------



## demotts 808

So much so can't wait for the DVD to b available!


----------



## redman

great info


----------



## Roo223

Tag


----------



## cenochs

nuts&bolts said:


> If you are LEFT HANDED,
> and the bareshafts are missing to the LEFT..
> 
> then,
> we gotta tweak the bowstring,
> and we gotta tweak the bowstring SHORTER,
> by ADDING twists to the bowstring (top and bottom)
> or
> going to a SHORTER DL module,
> if you are LEFT HANDED.


Gotta mark this


----------



## Onpoint85

Tagged


----------



## Harley D

Tagged.


----------



## steve101610

Tag


----------



## drisk1

Tag


----------



## JGL351

fletched said:


> WOW, I always pluck my cables and listen to the tone. I always wondered if anyone else done that. I've picked up on things before just to find out later that other people do the same thing.


So that is why they call it TUNING...


----------



## kballer1

Tagge KITCHEN SINK TUNE.


----------



## nakedninja

Tag


----------



## huntforfood703

tagged


----------



## kkromer

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Neuralgia...
> 
> I have my new KITCHEN SINK tuning method....
> 
> where everything, including the "kitchen sink" will be checked, will be adjusted, fine tuned, if needed.
> 
> Start to finish, just follow the steps in order.
> 
> 
> The KITCHEN SINK METHOD...
> 
> Slightly re-worded.
> 
> *STEP by STEP Procedure to...
> 
> TUNE SIGHT PINS WINDAGE
> and
> ARROW REST CENTERSHOT
> and
> SIDEWAYS NOCK TRAVEL ON THE BOWSTRING
> and
> BOW DL SETTING.....
> 
> THE "KITCHEN SINK" METHOD.*
> 
> 
> I have a combo method that checks:
> 
> a) draw length setting on the bow
> b) arrow rest centershot position
> c) sight pins windage position
> d) top cam/top axle levelling (fix/check sideways nock travel).
> 
> 
> *STEP 1:*
> 
> So,
> hang a spool of string or any string with a weight on the end,
> in front of a target.
> 
> Step back 5 feet.
> Fire a fletched arrow at the string.
> Tweak the sight pins windage a skosh left...a skosh right,
> until the fletched arrow TOUCHES or even SPLITS the string material.
> 
> You should get this result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then,
> we goto the next stage.
> 
> Step back 5 feet,
> and try again with a bareshaft (arrow with no vanes).
> 
> You should get this result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are a RIGHT HANDED shooter
> and
> the bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of the string...
> 
> 
> *STEP 2:*
> 
> Press your bow
> and shorten the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
> and lengthen the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
> and fire a bareshaft again at the hanging string in front of the target...
> 
> the bareshaft point of impact should MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
> 
> repeat the shortening of the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (ADD)
> and
> repeat the lengthening of the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (REMOVE)
> 
> *STEP 3:*
> 
> IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
> IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT CHANGE...
> IF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT STAYS OFF TO THE RIGHT...
> 
> THEN WE HAVE A DRAW LENGTH PROBLEM....ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION
> cuz your elbow is too far back
> cuz your elbow is behind your head
> instead of DIRECTLY behind the arrow...in line behind the arrow
> 
> so,
> when the elbow is BEHIND YOUR HEAD,
> your release forearm is pointed OFF TO THE RIGHT,
> and
> your release forearm pulls the bowstring sideways (FAMOUS LEFT PAPER TEAR for right handed shooters)
> and
> when we have a nock left paper tear,
> cuz the bowstring is pulled sideways to the LEFT,
> cuz your forearm is pointed off to the right,
> then...
> 
> the bareshaft goes whereever your forearm is pointed
> and the bareshaft misses sideways to the RIGHT of the string.
> 
> 
> So if STEP 2 (buss cable leg tuning) has ZERO EFFECT,
> we must goto
> 
> *STEP 4.*
> 
> SHORTEN the bow DL setting.
> 
> Now,
> you might need to shorten the bow DL setting a complete 1/2 inch (new module).
> 
> Now,
> you might need to shorten the bow DL setting less than a complete module replacement...
> 
> maybe you need to shorten the bow DL setting only 1/8th inch....maybe only 1/4-inch.
> 
> HOW do you shorten a bow DL setting in-between module sizes?...less than 1/2-inch?
> 
> FIND the bottom of the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops) and REMOVE twists to INCREASE ATA
> and the bow DL will shorten. As you continue to UNTWIST the buss cable, the ATA continues to grow
> and the bow DL will continue to shorten.
> 
> Keep tweaking the buss cable LONGER, until the bareshaft hits the string, like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So,
> stay at 5 feet
> and fire fletched arrows at the string
> and
> fire bare shaft arrows at the string
> until both fletched and bareshaft hit the string.
> 
> 
> When firing fletched arrows at the string (tweak the sight pins windage)...to adjust
> when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable (bottom of the buss cable to make LARGE adjustments for point of impact....missing RIGHT by inches)
> when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable legs (shorten left side leg when missing right of the string by tiny amounts IF YOU ARE a RH shooter).
> 
> 
> Soon,
> your fletched arrows will be touching the string.
> 
> Soon,
> your bareshafts will also touch the string.
> 
> *STEP 5*
> 
> The final half of MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING.
> 
> 
> Goto any CONVENIENT longer distance...anything longer than 5 feet.
> Might be 10 feet.
> Might be 19 feet.
> Might be 14 yards.
> Might be 20 yards.
> Might be 60 yards.
> 
> Of course the LONGER the better,
> but even 19 feet is better than nothing.
> 
> 
> Fire fletched arrow groups at a bullseye.
> ONLY ADJUST THE ARROW REST, when shooting the convenient LONG RANGE distance.
> The goal is to get the arrow group CENTERED around the bullseye.
> 
> ARROW GROUP missing LEFT of the bullseye? MOVE arrow rest slightly right.
> ARROW GROUP missing RIGHT of the bullseye? MOVE arrow rest slightly left....like driving a car.
> 
> TWEAK THE ARROW REST to get the arrow group CENTERED around the LONG DISTANCE bullseye.
> Whatever convenient LONG DISTANCE is available to you.
> 
> Then,
> 
> STEP 6:
> 
> Repeat shooting the fletched arrow at the string at 5 FEET.
> We want to touch or SPLIT the string.
> 
> Might need to MICRO ADJUSt the sight pins windage...this is a fine tuning adjustment.
> SPLIT the string fibers at 5 feet. BE PICKY. EACH adjustment we make, we get a tiny bit CLOSER to perfect.
> 
> 
> REPEAT STEP 5
> 
> LONG RANGE arrow groups at a bullseye.
> MICRO adjust the arrow rest to get the arrow group perfectly CENTERED around your bullseye.
> 
> REPEAT STEP 6 again.
> REPEAT STEP 5 again.
> 
> REPEAT STEP 6 again.
> REPEAT STEP 5 again.
> 
> REPEAT STEP 6 again.
> REPEAT STEP 5 again.
> 
> You get the idea.
> 
> EACH cycle of step 6, then step 5...
> 
> maybe the first cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/8th-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/8th-inch...
> 
> and then,
> maybe the second cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/16th-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/16th-inch...
> 
> and then,
> maybe the third cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/32nd-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/32nd-inch...
> 
> and then,
> maybe the 4th cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/64th-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/64th-inch...
> 
> you get the idea.
> 
> You decide how many cycles you want to try.
> 
> EACH cycle is a smaller and smaller adjustment.
> 
> You decide how TIGHT you want your groups.


So if you have a bow that consistently hits left with a bare shaft, as a right handed shooter, and you've straightened the top cam as far as possible to the point the top cam is beyond parallel with the shooting string at rest, can you assume that your D.L. is too short? The bow almost feels that way.

I've just built new strings for this bow and am about to start all over, but before it seemed like I could get the bare shafts tuned and then any adjustment I made - tiller was the last - it moves right back to about 3" left at 20 yards. This is with a Pro-Comp Elite and Pro-tour 420 shafts.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Set top cam lean to zero.
Tuning at 20 yards....leave yoke legs alone.

If bareshaft is missing left and YOU are right handed....

Double or triple your d-loop
so that bareshafts miss right.

Then..loosen one knot
cut off molten ball
make a new 1/4-inch cotton ball
flatten and melt with a lighter.

Tie new d-loop.

Repeat process of shortening d-loop until
fletched and bares smack together.

If MAGIC D-loop length is 3/4-inch long...m

Then try longer cam
and install 1/4-inch d-loop

To MAINTAIN same Total Spread Distance
which is what I call pivot point to tip of elbow.

Go TOO LONG on D-loop
and keep shortening d-loop.

Results Based Tuning


----------



## nuts&bolts

If a super duper long D-loop does not make bareshaft miss right..m
when current d-loop makes you miss left...

Then draw length is not the issue.


----------



## nuts&bolts

I would have you try 2 yards and see if you can
stuff a bareshaft into the same hole as the fletched arrow.

Fire fletched.
pull it out
mark fletched hole.
fire bareshaft.

See if you csn stuff bareshaft into same hole.

Move arrow rest sideways so X10 is pointing exact same
direction as front stabilizer

Leave arrow rest alone.
leave yoke legs alone

Tune d-loop length for sideways miss with bares. 
Tune control cable for vertical miss with bares.

Master 2 yards.
then master 5 yards
then master 7 yards...

No arrow rest adjust.
no tweaking yoke legs
stuff bareshaft into fletched arrow hole.

Take pics of your homework.


----------



## nuts&bolts

Master the fundamentals at 2 yards
master the fundamentals at 4 yards.

Leave the top cam at zero lean
leave arrow rest sideways position such that arrow and front
stabilizer BOTH POINT DUE NORTH

tune the d-loop length longer if your bareshaft misses left
of the fletched arrow hole.
fire the fletched and make a HOLE in a fresh target.

Tune the d-loop length so you STUFF A BARESHAFT into
the fletched arrow hole. When you fire the fletched...pull it out.

Now....see if you can fire a single bareshaft into the same hole
frpm a 2 yard shooting line.

Hang up your bow.
pull the bareshaft. 

Do it again and stuff the bateshaft into the same hole.

Do this 100 times...back and forth using one bareshaft
shooting from a 2 yard shooting line.

This TESTS shooter execution consistency.

After you can stuff s bareshaft into the fletched arrow hole
100 times in a row....

Try again at 4 yards. 
Fire fletched arrow. Mark new hole.
fire bareshaft and stuff into the same holem

If bareshaft misses left...use needlenose pliers and stretch
d-loop longer.

Now stuff bareshaft into fletched arrow hole 100 times.

If you cannot....then YOU need work on execution and shot
consistency....and most like need to train your grip technique
for placement consistency.

When you master 4 yards for ONE HOLE ACCURACY. ..

Try 6 yards and see how close you can get to 1 hole accuracy.

Master short yardage training. 
Massive amounts of short yardage training. 

If you can stuff a bareshaft into the same hole at 6 yards...


Then see how consistently you can shoot a bareshaft at 10 yards.
cross hair aiming point with Sharpie Pen.

See if you csn fire a single bareshaft 20 times and have
the EXACT same point of impact.

This is a test of shooter execution consistency.


----------



## johncraddock445

Tag


----------



## oldbear

tagged


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## cdsamm

Marked for future


----------



## evox

tag for most informative thread on tuning I've seen. thanks nuts&bolts


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## djw195

Tag


----------



## Tuningfreak

Bump


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## TnNASPcoach

WOW.... THIS IS GOOD STUFF!!!! Tagged and thanks for "Paying it forward"


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## Miked989

Good info, need to print this out and put it on the bench!!


----------



## redman

great info


----------



## K9-26

Awesome info


----------



## Kenro287

Tag


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## redman

What is the best way to find sweet spot for nocking point is it just shooting at long range see what works best


----------



## tripleb2431

redman said:


> What is the best way to find sweet spot for nocking point is it just shooting at long range see what works best


For me it's using a bare shaft and grouping it with my fletched arrow if the bare shaft is hitting same POI as my fletched then I know for certain my nock is set. Shooting through paper is another way to check nock point. I always start off with nock dead level 90 degree to string then let my BS flight tell me if it needs moved.


----------



## horsetooth

redman said:


> What is the best way to find sweet spot for nocking point is it just shooting at long range see what works best


Follow Nuts & Bolts methods.

For me I recently discovered a very fast way.

I had already used N & B's method to determine my draw length exactly (shoot a string point blank; descibed previously)

I set the nock level with the rest.
Fired through paper
Adjusted cables by adding and removing twists until I had a perfect bullet hole.

Fired at a string at 5'
splitting string with fletched and bare shaft

went to the range and fired groups at 20, 25 , 30, 35 yards.
4 fletched and 1 or 2 bare shaft per group.

Fine tuning adjustment to clean up the bare shaft flight at distance.

Results:
1) Bare shaft hits with fletched out to 50 yrds.
2) Determined I need to focus on grip and form to improve groups- Bow is tuned better than my ability!


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## MARBLESgotBOW

Tagged


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## bowguy357

tag


----------



## whitetail hnter

ttt


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## kballer1

Tagged for later. Thanks.


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## mwntnmuleys

Tag


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## wvbownut

can't wait to try this


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## alaska_av8r

*Buss vs Control Cable (ol fart clearing cobwebs)*

Oh goodness, so much to learn! Used to shoot 3d comp in late 80's, Jennings, Golden Eagle etc and now trying to get back into it. Picked up a used Diamond Black Ice and gonna give tuning a try but so much has changed. Thanks tremendously for this topic! These 50 yrs of life have taught me not to ASSume anything so I have some dumb questions.
This bow is considered a single cam bow, correct? From what I can tell, this bow has a string and one cable? And if so, is this a buss cable or a control cable (local pro shop says control cable but they are Matthews folks and not to keen on diamond). I figured I better get the terminology down before beginning this procedure.


----------



## nuts&bolts

alaska_av8r said:


> Oh goodness, so much to learn! Used to shoot 3d comp in late 80's, Jennings, Golden Eagle etc and now trying to get back into it. Picked up a used Diamond Black Ice and gonna give tuning a try but so much has changed. Thanks tremendously for this topic! These 50 yrs of life have taught me not to ASSume anything so I have some dumb questions.
> This bow is considered a single cam bow, correct? From what I can tell, this bow has a string and one cable? And if so, is this a buss cable or a control cable (local pro shop says control cable but they are Matthews folks and not to keen on diamond). I figured I better get the terminology down before beginning this procedure.


Yes,
the Diamond Black Ice is a single cam bow.

So,
ALL single cam bows have a two part rigging system.

1) a SUPER DUPER long bowstring.

2) buss cable, also called a YOKE cable...and the old timers call it a POWER CABLE.

ALL buss cables have THREE end loops. You have a LONG center leg that attaches to the cam, which is located at the BOTTOM axle.

So,
the TOP of the buss cable, has these two legs, called YOKE LEGS.

YOKE legs are ALWAYS attached to the TOP AXLE.

So, two end loops for the TWO short, stubby legs up on top
and
the THIRD end loop for the LONG CENTER LEG.

THREE end loops.

YOKE cable....or also called BUSS CABLE.


A single cam has no CONTROL cable.

A HOYT,
a PSE,
these are HYBRID cam bows

and these have a THREE part rigging system.



a) bowstring....MUCH MUCH shorter for a Hybrid Cam bow

b) buss cable = power cable = yoke cable...THIS is the cable with THREE end loops

c) control cable...this LOOKS like a bowstring, but the control cable has only TWO end loops...and connects the top metal thingy to the bottom metal thingy.


----------



## bojangles808

tagged


----------



## prbg

Archived


----------



## B Mac

nuts&bolts said:


> c) control cable...this LOOKS like a bowstring, but the control cable has only TWO end loops...and connects the top metal _*thingy*_ to the bottom metal _*thingy*_.


I love your use of the word Thingy here. I use the word THINGY all the time when describing stuff.


----------



## wpk

B Mac said:


> I love your use of the word Thingy here. I use the word THINGY all the time when describing stuff.


You would lol


----------



## alaska_av8r

thank you nuts&bolts, gonna put your tuning methods to work now.


----------



## sab323

thank you, alan.
i finally understand the concept of getting my release elbow in line with the arrow, as i can finally get bare shafts to impact with fletched arrows.

one step closer to tuning the bow with the archer...


----------



## SpeedStar

Great stuff!


----------



## Mauritian

Tfl


nuts&bolts said:


> hello neuralgia...
> 
> I have my new kitchen sink tuning method....
> 
> Where everything, including the "kitchen sink" will be checked, will be adjusted, fine tuned, if needed.
> 
> Start to finish, just follow the steps in order.
> 
> 
> The kitchen sink method...
> 
> Slightly re-worded.
> 
> *step by step procedure to...
> 
> Tune sight pins windage
> and
> arrow rest centershot
> and
> sideways nock travel on the bowstring
> and
> bow dl setting.....
> 
> The "kitchen sink" method.*
> 
> 
> i have a combo method that checks:
> 
> A) draw length setting on the bow
> b) arrow rest centershot position
> c) sight pins windage position
> d) top cam/top axle levelling (fix/check sideways nock travel).
> 
> 
> *step 1:*
> 
> so,
> hang a spool of string or any string with a weight on the end,
> in front of a target.
> 
> Step back 5 feet.
> Fire a fletched arrow at the string.
> Tweak the sight pins windage a skosh left...a skosh right,
> until the fletched arrow touches or even splits the string material.
> 
> You should get this result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then,
> we goto the next stage.
> 
> Step back 5 feet,
> and try again with a bareshaft (arrow with no vanes).
> 
> You should get this result.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you are a right handed shooter
> and
> the bareshaft misses to the right of the string...
> 
> 
> *step 2:*
> 
> press your bow
> and shorten the left side buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
> and lengthen the right side buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
> and fire a bareshaft again at the hanging string in front of the target...
> 
> The bareshaft point of impact should move closer to the string...
> 
> Repeat the shortening of the left side buss cable leg with another complete twist (add)
> and
> repeat the lengthening of the right side buss cable leg with another complete twist (remove)
> 
> *step 3:*
> 
> if the bareshaft point of impact does not move closer to the string...
> If the bareshaft point of impact does not change...
> If the bareshaft point of impact stays off to the right...
> 
> Then we have a draw length problem....absolutely no question
> cuz your elbow is too far back
> cuz your elbow is behind your head
> instead of directly behind the arrow...in line behind the arrow
> 
> so,
> when the elbow is behind your head,
> your release forearm is pointed off to the right,
> and
> your release forearm pulls the bowstring sideways (famous left paper tear for right handed shooters)
> and
> when we have a nock left paper tear,
> cuz the bowstring is pulled sideways to the left,
> cuz your forearm is pointed off to the right,
> then...
> 
> The bareshaft goes whereever your forearm is pointed
> and the bareshaft misses sideways to the right of the string.
> 
> 
> So if step 2 (buss cable leg tuning) has zero effect,
> we must goto
> 
> *step 4.*
> 
> shorten the bow dl setting.
> 
> Now,
> you might need to shorten the bow dl setting a complete 1/2 inch (new module).
> 
> Now,
> you might need to shorten the bow dl setting less than a complete module replacement...
> 
> Maybe you need to shorten the bow dl setting only 1/8th inch....maybe only 1/4-inch.
> 
> How do you shorten a bow dl setting in-between module sizes?...less than 1/2-inch?
> 
> Find the bottom of the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops) and remove twists to increase ata
> and the bow dl will shorten. As you continue to untwist the buss cable, the ata continues to grow
> and the bow dl will continue to shorten.
> 
> Keep tweaking the buss cable longer, until the bareshaft hits the string, like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so,
> stay at 5 feet
> and fire fletched arrows at the string
> and
> fire bare shaft arrows at the string
> until both fletched and bareshaft hit the string.
> 
> 
> When firing fletched arrows at the string (tweak the sight pins windage)...to adjust
> when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable (bottom of the buss cable to make large adjustments for point of impact....missing right by inches)
> when firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable legs (shorten left side leg when missing right of the string by tiny amounts if you are a rh shooter).
> 
> 
> Soon,
> your fletched arrows will be touching the string.
> 
> Soon,
> your bareshafts will also touch the string.
> 
> *step 5*
> 
> the final half of modified french tuning.
> 
> 
> Goto any convenient longer distance...anything longer than 5 feet.
> Might be 10 feet.
> Might be 19 feet.
> Might be 14 yards.
> Might be 20 yards.
> Might be 60 yards.
> 
> Of course the longer the better,
> but even 19 feet is better than nothing.
> 
> 
> Fire fletched arrow groups at a bullseye.
> Only adjust the arrow rest, when shooting the convenient long range distance.
> The goal is to get the arrow group centered around the bullseye.
> 
> Arrow group missing left of the bullseye? Move arrow rest slightly right.
> Arrow group missing right of the bullseye? Move arrow rest slightly left....like driving a car.
> 
> Tweak the arrow rest to get the arrow group centered around the long distance bullseye.
> Whatever convenient long distance is available to you.
> 
> Then,
> 
> step 6:
> 
> Repeat shooting the fletched arrow at the string at 5 feet.
> We want to touch or split the string.
> 
> Might need to micro adjust the sight pins windage...this is a fine tuning adjustment.
> Split the string fibers at 5 feet. Be picky. Each adjustment we make, we get a tiny bit closer to perfect.
> 
> 
> Repeat step 5
> 
> long range arrow groups at a bullseye.
> Micro adjust the arrow rest to get the arrow group perfectly centered around your bullseye.
> 
> Repeat step 6 again.
> Repeat step 5 again.
> 
> Repeat step 6 again.
> Repeat step 5 again.
> 
> Repeat step 6 again.
> Repeat step 5 again.
> 
> You get the idea.
> 
> Each cycle of step 6, then step 5...
> 
> Maybe the first cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/8th-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/8th-inch...
> 
> And then,
> maybe the second cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/16th-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/16th-inch...
> 
> And then,
> maybe the third cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/32nd-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/32nd-inch...
> 
> And then,
> maybe the 4th cycle,
> we adjust the sight pins...1/64th-inch
> we adjust the arrow rest...1/64th-inch...
> 
> You get the idea.
> 
> You decide how many cycles you want to try.
> 
> Each cycle is a smaller and smaller adjustment.
> 
> You decide how tight you want your groups.


----------



## Mauritian

Tagged for my new Bow string


nuts&bolts said:


> 20 yard target
> 
> Horizontal strip of duct tape.
> 
> Aim at the top edge.
> 
> FIRE 3 arrows at the top edge of the duct tape,
> with NORMAL PULLING pressure.
> 
> Then,
> fire 3 more arrows at the top edge of the duct tape,
> but this time,
> with HARDER THAN NORMAL pulling pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 ARROWS hit lower.
> 3 ARROW hit higher.
> 
> 
> This means that the cam starting rotation position
> is NOT in the sweet spot.
> 
> So,
> we have to FIND the sweet spot for cam starting rotation position.
> 
> We have to FIND the sweet spot for cam starting rotation position,
> that provides up with LEVEL nock travel....
> 
> which is fancy lingo for
> finding the cam starting rotation position,
> that provides us with the FLATTEST arrow groups,
> with the MINIMUM amount of vertical misses.
> 
> 
> So,
> we have TWO CHOICES.
> 
> We can make the cam rotate TOWARDS the riser,
> we can make the cam rotate AWAY from the riser....
> 
> we can make the cam rotate in the direction when we DRAW THE BOW to full draw...
> or
> we can make the cam rotate in the direction when we LET DOWN THE BOW.
> 
> 
> ONE of these directions (ADD or REMOVE a half twist) will make the 6 ARROWS
> hit at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.
> 
> 
> *SINGLE CAM BOW...*
> 
> find the cable with 3 end loops
> (sometimes called the Buss cable)
> (sometimes called the Yoke cable)
> (sometimes called the "Y" cable)
> 
> find the bottom end loop and try ADDING a half twist or a complete twist
> and SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
> 
> If things got better,
> then,
> ADDING half twists is what you want to do,
> until you get all 6 ARROWS hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.
> 
> If things got worse,
> then,
> go the other direction,
> REMOVING half twists,
> until you get all 6 ARROWS hitting at the same height above the top edge of the duct tape.
> 
> 
> 
> *HYBRID CAM BOW....*
> 
> this is a bow with a 3 piece rigging system.
> 
> So,
> you have a buss cable (cable with 3 end loops)
> you have a control cable (cable with 2 end loops)
> you have a bowstring.
> 
> 
> So,
> you have a choice, when CREEP TUNING a hybrid cam bow.
> 
> You COULD do the same procedure as the single cam bow,
> and only adjust the BUSS CABLE.
> 
> 
> I prefer to use the CONTROL CABLE for creep tuning,
> cuz
> this way, there is LESS effect on the draw length..a much smaller change in draw length,
> when CREEP TUNING a hybrid cam bow,
> when ADDING or REMOVING the half twist adjustments
> to try and get all 6 arrows to HIT at the SAME HEIGHT above the top edge of the duct tape.
> 
> *TWEAKING the control cable is a DIRECT ADJUSTMENT to the top cam rotation positionon* a hybrid cam system,
> cuz the TOP END of the control cable is attached to a peg on the TOP CAM.
> 
> 
> TWEAKING the buss cable is an IN-DIRECT ADJUSTMENT to the top cam rotation position on a hybrid cam system,
> cuz the buss cable only CHANGES the ATA...which in-directly causes the top cam to rotate one way or the other way.


----------



## swsinhawaii

nice article and post!


----------



## familyfriendly

tag


----------



## multi-target

Tagged


----------



## blackduck889

Tagged for later


----------



## franzofumi

Yah


----------



## JDUB007

Tag for reference


----------



## jhcats10

Tagged


----------



## jljjdye

Tagged


----------



## VarmintSniper30

so im french modifiy tuning at 5 feeet and the bare shaft is hitting the string now but i can clearly tell. that its giving me a left nock tear. how do i correct this or do i continue on going back with my french tuning.


----------



## bogeyrider63

Tagged


----------



## VarmintSniper30

can someone help me out hopefully


----------



## shaffer88

VarmintSniper30 said:


> so im french modifiy tuning at 5 feeet and the bare shaft is hitting the string now but i can clearly tell. that its giving me a left nock tear. how do i correct this or do i continue on going back with my french tuning.


Paper will get you close. Continue with the modified French and it should come back to a good tear. Mine did. But also who cares what the tear is if in the end you have bare and fletched the same at 20yds


----------



## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> so im french modifiy tuning at 5 feeet and the bare shaft is hitting the string now but i can clearly tell. that its giving me a left nock tear. how do i correct this or do i continue on going back with my french tuning.


20 yards.

Shoulder height target.

Fire a group of fletched arrows and ONE bareshaft. Take a photo of the result.


----------



## shaffer88

@varmitsniper listen to him^^^^


----------



## VarmintSniper30

Well this is at ten yards haven't made it to 20yds yet


----------



## shaffer88

Work still left to do get them both hitting together at 5 feet and ten yards and then check at 20 yds


----------



## VarmintSniper30

I did start at 5ft and got both splitting string


----------



## shaffer88

So looks like you are at step 5 of the modified French. Adjust sight at close range and whatever your long range is adjust the rest.


----------



## VarmintSniper30

I thought in nuts and bolts first page he said to a just sight windage with Fletcher and buds cable with bare shaft to how ever far we want to go


----------



## shaffer88

Ok if you haven't done the bias cable stuff yet then yes. Follow his directions and you will have a studly tuned now. Just now how close they were I assumed you were at step 5, so disregard me then


----------



## VarmintSniper30

Just trying to figure out or what to.correct this arrow. Since its almost hitting the target sideways


----------



## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Well this is at ten yards haven't made it to 20yds yet


Need a full draw form photo. Blank wall behind you. HEAD to toe photo. LIKE This.



No need for the 20 yard target photo. The 10 yard photo is already telling me that you need some fixing.


----------



## dsdhunts

im thinking try a different spot in the target first, just for conformation. that's a lot of angle for 10 yards I would expect noc left on the fletched as well.


----------



## VarmintSniper30

Here's a couple not sure what you could work with nuts.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Here's a couple not sure what you could work with nuts.


Bow hand grip needs LOTS of work. This is a LARGE reason for the bareshaft results. Purchase a True Shot Coach, and that will help a lot.







The purpose of the TRUE shot coach glove, is to FORCE the 45 degree rotation for the knuckles of the bow hand. What's the big deal for 45 degrees of rotation on the bow hand knuckles? The BIG DEAL is that you have WAY WAY WAY too much bow hand thumb muscle in contact with the grip of your bow. The medical name for the big THUMB muscle is thenar eminence. I can see the ENTIRE thenar eminence on the RIGHT side of your riser. You have a near VERTICAL bow hand knuckles angle, and with THIS much contact with the riser and the thenar eminence, this is causing the end of your front stab to WIGGLE sideways.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Here's a couple not sure what you could work with nuts.


Bow hand MORE like this.



MORE like this.



Fingertips all curled into the palm of the hand. GET a minimum of 45 degrees rotation on the bow hand.


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## VarmintSniper30

Ok I'll get you another pic sir and thank you thank you thank you sir.


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## VarmintSniper30

Is this better sir


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Is this better sir


It's an improvement. Keep the fingers LOOSE and this will keep your forearm muscles also relaxed. Try the 10 yards bareshaft test again.


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## VarmintSniper30

Yes sir


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## wpod

I had the pleasure of spending a morning under the tutelage of nuts n bolts.
A lot of information crammed into not enough hours as he taught me about tuning my bow and shooting form.
I went home very tired but learned alot.


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## SpeedStar

That's a valuable morning.


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## that1guy27

Finally had a little time to do some shooting since working 7 12s figured id throw this pic up for N&B to tear apart.








Im slighly shooting down due to the driveway tried to line it up straight but I'm not going to aim at a window just to take a better picture haha.


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## VarmintSniper30

Well help him out he wants you against a blank wall no lines or anything on it


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## that1guy27

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Well help him out he wants you against a blank wall no lines or anything on it


would if i could, but at work and don't really get a chance to shoot much due to other priorities the next 7 weeks.


----------



## carlosii

Neuralgia said:


> Guys I've been practicing archery for 5 years now. I stopped because I was finishing my residency and developed a shoulder injury.
> 
> Now I'm back and I'm trying to teach my nephew and some kids here the magic of archery.
> 
> I've had to learn how to tune a bow by myself, visiting forums, buying videos, YouTube, etc.
> 
> It's been years of reading and watching carefully in many places... It's also been hard because living outside the US and trying to learn without a bow shop in the next 6 countries is kind of hard.
> 
> Now, what videos are new to learn bow tuning? I have Leroys (I'm not sure that's his name), and those really helped me out when I started.
> 
> Any recommendations? New videos?
> 
> As I guess all of you are I'm pretty comfortable adjusting single cams, and I'm trying to learn the smallest details of binary cams (I own a 2008 bowtech commander).
> 
> Any books now available? Thanks.
> 
> Dan from Costa Rica
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


Do you mean LeEarl instead of Leroy? Good basic video and easy to understand.


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## nuts&bolts

that1guy27 said:


> Finally had a little time to do some shooting since working 7 12s figured id throw this pic up for N&B to tear apart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im slighly shooting down due to the driveway tried to line it up straight but I'm not going to aim at a window just to take a better picture haha.


Build a stack of boxes, or put your target on a table, whatever it takes to get the target up at shoulder height. 

THIS pic is not much use, cuz your RELEASE shoulder is HIGHER than your bow shoulder, cuz of the downhill arrow.


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## nuts&bolts

that1guy27 said:


> Finally had a little time to do some shooting since working 7 12s figured id throw this pic up for N&B to tear apart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im slighly shooting down due to the driveway tried to line it up straight but I'm not going to aim at a window just to take a better picture haha.


Grip needs work.

MORE like this will help SHRINK your left-right misses.


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## VarmintSniper30

Well new grip shot it a couple of times same result


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Well new grip shot it a couple of times same result


Need to change your anchor, by 1/8th inch...which means we need to shorten your draw length by 1/8th inch. So, thicken the grip, with some tape, and build up a layer 1/8th inch thick.
So, this means, I want the nock to move FORWARDS on your head, 1/8th inch CLOSER to the riser. YOu can do this with layers of electrical tape. REPEAT the test with the 1/8th inch thick layer of tape.
Then, try a total of 3/16ths inch thick of electrical tape. The idea is to reduce the brace height with a layer of tape, 1/8th inch thick, then 3/16ths inch thick.

I change my draw length by 1/4-inch, and that caused the bareshaft point of impact to move 8-inches.



Fletched group size at 20 yards, with bow IN SPEC at 29-inches of draw length. BARESHAFT misses 8-inches to the LEFT of the bullseye.



Since I am right handed, and the BARESHAFT missed 8-inches LEFT...I GREW the brace height 1/4-inch LONGER than spec. NEW 20 yd results.



TWEAKED sight elevation and windage.



So, YOu can easily shrink the brace height 1/8th inch LESS, with layers of electrical tape on the grip.



THIS is paper, but you get the idea. 3/4-inch wide strip of electrical tape, to THICKEN the grip, until your NEW brace height is 1/8th inch less.

KEEp adding layers of electrical tape to make the brace height LESS and LESS and LESS, and you will see the bareshaft straighten out, and hit inside the bullseye.


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## VarmintSniper30

Nuts I'm having to put a lot of cameron lean to get a perfect bullet hole is this the wrong way to do this. Like fix this problem


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Well new grip shot it a couple of times same result


If 1/8th inch shorter brace height does not fix things up, then goto 1/4-inch shorter brace height, and see if that fixes things up. Then, goto 1/2-inch shorter DL module, and always keep the EXACT same anchor. YOur are TURNING yoru head to the RIGHT, to keep the string on the nose, with the TOO LONG draw length. SO, if you end up going 1/2-inch shorter on the DL module, SIMPLE...just keep the string on the nose, but you will have to TURN YOUR HEAD more to your LEFT...to keep the string on the nose, and lean FORWARDS.


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## VarmintSniper30

Shshsj


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Nuts I'm having to put a lot of cameron lean to get a perfect bullet hole is this the wrong way to do this. Like fix this problem


PLAY with the tape to THICKEN the grip, to reduce brace height and LEAVE YOKE legs alone.

HERE is MY result at 20 yards, with a bareshaft. I used a Maitland Zeus, with yoke legs. MY bareshaft missed 8-inches LEFT. MUCH more than you.



My bareshaft missed 8-INCHES LEFT at 20 yards. I did ZERO yoke tuning. I did ZERO changes to the arrow rest. My arrow spine is JUST FINE. I used the EXACT SAME arrow.
I ONLY shortened the TWO cables to BOOST brace height, to GROW the draw length 1/4-inch LONGER.

HERE are my bareshaft results, each time I grew the draw length 1/16th inch longer, EACH time I went to the bow press. NO need to YOKE TUNE, for ONLY 20 yards. YOKE tuning at 20 yards, is for folks looking for SHORT CUTS. Don't do it. NO NEED.



29-inch draw length, BOW IN SPEC...the bareshaft misses 8-INCHES LEFT of the bullseye.

I shortened BOTH cables, and the BOW IS NOW OUT OF SPEC, and the draw length is 29.05-inches LONG. BARESHAFT misses only 4-inches LEFT of the bullseye. SHORTEN both cables some more, and the brace height grows even LONGER, MORE out of spec. STILL ZERO YOKE tuning, and ZERO tweaks to the arrow rest. DRaw Length is now 29.15-inches LONG...bow is OUT OF SPEC. BARESHAFT is just hitting the LEFT EDGE of the yellow bullseye, the 9-ring. BARESHAFT is 1.5-inches LEFT of the x-ring. STILL ZERO yoke tuning. REALLY, no need to YOKE TUNE at ONLY 20 yards.

FINALLY, boost the brace height 1/4-inch LONGER than spec, by shortening both cables (buss and control). Draw length is obviously now 1/4-inch LONGER. BARESHAFT nails the 10-ring.....bareshaft is now only 3/4-inches away from the perfect center of the target....with a 29.25-inch draw length. With the draw length at 29-inches. the BARESHAFT was missing 8-INCHES away from the bullseye.

So, YOU need to shorten the brace height...so simple...THICKEN the grip, with layers of tape, and try 1/8th inch LESS brace, and try 3/16ths LESS brace, and try 1/4-inch LESS brace with more and more and more layers of electrical tape.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Shshsj


You cannot HIDE too long of a draw length with MORE and MORE yoke tuning to FIX a left tear. LEFT tear is the same as a bareshaft missing to the RIGHT.
Stop messing around, and put the bow back to ZERO lean at full draw, and put on a 1/2-inch shorter draw length. SAME anchor, nose to string, but TURN your HEAD MORE to the left. If you continue to LEAN BACKWARDS, and say that the 1/2-inch SHORTER draw length is NO good, cuz the string don't touch your nose....You are JUST fooling yourself.

TWO photos, SAME guy...but different draw lengths.



You can HAVE the string TOUCH your nose, when the draw length is TOO LONG, by TURNING YOUR HEAD more and more and MORE to the RIGHT. You can ALSO HAVE The string TOUCH your nose, when the draw length is 1/2-inch SHORTER, by simply TURNING YOUR HEAD more to your LEFT.



THIS is what it looks like to turn your head MORE to the LEFT, and the shorter bow DRAW LENGTH, will still touch your nose.

So, drop the draw length 1/2-inch shorter, and get your bow to FULL DRAW, in a draw board, and fix the YOKE LEGS (UNTWIST the LEFT side yoke leg..and TWIST UP the RIGHT side yoke leg) cuz, *if you try to FIX your LEFT paper tear with even MORE and MORE and MORE yoke leg twisting ON THE LEFT SIDE...you are going to have your bowstring ROLL OFF the cam, and dry fire your bow.*



FIX this back to ZERO lean at full draw. THIS is a ridiculous amount of cam lean, to try and fix a LEFT paper tear, cuz your draw length is just plain too long.


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## VarmintSniper30

Finally stacked enough up and this is my first change in result. It feels like I'm pulling into my wall pretty hard


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## VarmintSniper30

And getting by the look of it s mock low tear now to


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## wpod

Why do people ask for help, then fight the help given?


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## VarmintSniper30

Why do ppl comment on a thread with nothing pertaining to it?


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## VarmintSniper30

Well sir it never got better. Put in shorter module and tape and nothing changed. Now I'm pulling super hard in my wall


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## VarmintSniper30

Shorter SLOW PIC


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Shorter SLOW PIC


DROP the right shoulder, tops of shoulders MUST be level.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Shorter SLOW PIC


Point both feet 90 degrees from the wall. Both shoes parallel to each other, and BOTH heels touching the wall behind you.
BOTH heels touch the wall, BOTH butt cheeks touch the wall, BOTH shoulder blades also touch the wall behind you.

You are STILL leaning backwards. Put a stack of boxes in front of your stabilizer, say 3-inches away from the END of the front stab, then LEAN FOWARDS and get the front stab to TOUCH the stack of boxes, 3-inches away from the end of your stab. THIs is called LEANING FORWARDS.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Shorter SLOW PIC


Still MAJOR MASSIVE form issues.



The middle of your neck, the adam's apple needs to be directly ABOVE the centerline of your hips (sEE BLUE line...that is the VERTICAL centerline..the midpoint between your hips joints).
MIDDLE of neck is the yellow arrow.

The LEFT shoulder needs to drop DOWN to the same height as the RIGHT shoulder (See horizontal blue line).


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Shorter SLOW PIC


Change how you pull back to full draw. RAISE the bow arm up to horizontal FIRST...NOT HIGHER than level, NOT lower then level, get the bow hand/bow arm UP to horizontal, and then pull back the d-loop in a LEVEL line. LIKE pulling a kitchen drawer in your kitchen. Your kitchen drawer slides ONLY allow you to pull the handle of the kitchen drawer in a level line. KEEP both shoulders DOWN, when you raise the bow arm to horizontal. THEN, with your bow hand at FINAL height, just pull the d-loop STRAIGHT back. DON'T pull the release hand DOWN and then rise UP with your release hand. Don't SKY draw, with the release hand above your head, and then pull down. Just do a horizontal drawing motion, to START with both shoulders at the SAME HEIGHT, and then maintain BOTH shoulders at the SAME height, while getting to full draw. If you cannot do this, cuz the draw weight is too high, then DROP the draw weight.


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## VarmintSniper30

I feel really jamed up like draw is short sir. I put me a mark to lean pass though


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## wpod

Alan, slightly raise right heel?


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## dsdhunts

something caught my eye try one with the stabilizer off, or weights off. with the bare shaft.


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## bow hunter13

Great thread new I can fine tune my bow and my draw length. Thanks nuts & bolts very useful information.. My pro shop don't explain have if this stuff to ppl done times I wonder if they really kno Wat they are doin.. They told me to paper tune it and it will be good..


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## VarmintSniper30

VarmintSniper30 said:


> I feel really jamed up like draw is short sir. I put me a mark to lean pass though


How do I know if I've gone to short alan


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## Larkinhjr

VarmintSniper30 said:


> How do I know if I've gone to short alan


Your not to short.


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## Larkinhjr

VarmintSniper30 said:


> I feel really jamed up like draw is short sir. I put me a mark to lean pass though


That draw length looks way better. Did you fix the horrible cam lean? If not your gonna ruin your bow that is excessively to much.


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## dsdhunts

b h 13 all it takes is a sign.

I consistently come in 2nd at the local gun clubs skeet trap 5 stand tourney. locals ask me all the time skeet stuff. but at Sparta I was out first round 23/25

I could almost charge localy.

same with archery beat your 5 buddies in your club and your the pro.


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## VarmintSniper30

Larkinhjr said:


> That draw length looks way better. Did you fix the horrible cam lean? If not your gonna ruin your bow that is excessively to much.


Yes. Can you pull into your wall way to hard is there such a thing


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> How do I know if I've gone to short alan


Need you to get the two shoulders DEAD level, and need you to try and LEAN forwards. You can put a table, the edge of a table tight to your LEFT leg,
and then I need you to REACH forwards, and get the end of the stabilizer to touch a stack of boxes, on the table, so that you put the middle of your neck, centered between your ankles.

The main thing to get your Bareshafts to fly parallel to your fletched arrows, is to get your RELEASE FOREARM to point in the same direction, IN LINE behind the arrow.

I put together a series of photos for ya.



THIS is leaning backwards. LEFT shoulder is SKY HIGH. Need ya to DROP the LEFT collar bone, back down to horizontal. YES, when you PUSH the LEFT collarbone down, so BOTH shoulder joints at the same height above the floor...the STRING will not touch your nose. THIS does NOT mean the draw length is too short. IT means, I need that YELLOW arrow (center of your neck) to move CLOSER to the target. Have a friend/wife/girlfriend GRAB the top right side of your SHORTS. Then, have that friend/wife/girlfriend PUSH your RIGHT armpit, and PUSH your RIGHT ARMPIT 3 inches CLOSER to the target. MOVE both butt cheeks AWAY from the target, and then your TWO armpits will AUTOMATICALLY move CLOSER to the target...this is called LEANING into the target, like leaning over a railing.


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## nuts&bolts

How NOT to do things.



I strapped a wooden dowel to the RELEASE forearm. Notice the arrow and the FOREARM are WAY not pointed in the SAME direction. THIS is why a bareshaft misses RIGHT. BARESHAFT will FLY where-ever your FOREARM is pointed.



THIS is leaning backwards. IT actually is AOK to lean backwards...ONLY...ONLY IF, you keep the two collar bones DEAD PARALLEL to the arrow. So, if you are firing a DEAD HORIZONTAL ARROW, and you choose to lean backwards...YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST get the two collar bones, ALSO DEAD HORIZONTAL.

LEFT SHOULDER is SKY HIGH, and the LEFT SHOULDER on the skeleton is HIGHER than the RIGHT shoulder. THIS is a NO GO.

Your pic. LEVEL arrow, but SKY HIGH LEFT shoulder. This is a NO GO. DROP the left shoulder down to LEVEL, with the RIGHT shoulder.



Your LEFT shoulder appears HIGHER than your chin. DROP the shoulder down. RELAX your neck and put MORE weight on your LEFT leg.



Yes, it is completely possible to have LEVEL arrow and LEVEL collar bones.


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## nuts&bolts

FLETCHED arrow is pointed at the wooden post (white post). The dowel shows where the skeleton's forearm is POINTED...off to the RIGHT.
When the elbow is too far clockwise behind your head...the bowstring is pulled LEFT, so the NOCK of the bareshaft is also pulled LEFT, and you get a LEFT paper tear, and the FRONT end of the bareshaft is pushed to the RIGHT.



FIX the cam lean, back to ZERO lean, when at full draw. THIS is important.


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## nuts&bolts

Trying to FIX THIS MUCH of a right MISS for your bareshaft, with THIS MUCH cam lean, is the ABSOLUTE WRONG way to go. Maybe 1 or 2 twists in a yoke leg to FINE TUNE things. You have tried to FIX a form issue and a DRAW LENGTH issue with WAY WAY WAY too much twists on the LEFT yoke leg. Bring it back to ZERO lean, at full draw...and fix the REAL ISSUES...FORM and wrong Draw Length setting on your bow.


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## nuts&bolts

I strapped a wooden dowel to the skeleton's RIGHT Forearm. SEE where the forearm is pointed? Notice that the arrow and the wooden dowel are NOT pointed in the SAME DIRECTION...NOT by a long shot. What happens when the ELBOW is rotated TOO MUCH clockwise behind the shooter's head? The bareshaft misses to the RIGHT, LIKE THIS.


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## nuts&bolts

What's wrong with this picture? Well, the skeleton was sold a bow that is WAY WAY too long on draw length. BUT BUT BUT, the string is touching his nose. BUT, notice that the END of the arrow shaft is almost to the corner of his jaw...notice that the SKELETON has his HEAD turned WAY to the right, just to get the string to touch his nose. The skeleton has his head TURNED soooo far to the RIGHT, to get the string to touch his nose, that the skeleton has to almost look THROUGH his nose, to see the pin sight.



SKELETON SHOULD be looking at the wooden post, but his head is turned SOO FAR to the RIGHT, he almost cannot see the pin sight.



THIS is turning your head WAY too much, JUST to get the STRING to touch your nose.



Another shot, you can see the skeleton has his HEAD TURNED A HUGE amount, just to get the string to touch the nose.
You can see the wooden dowel, pointing where the forearm is pointed. THIS is why the bareshaft misses to the RIGHT, EVEN if you have SOOOO many twists added to the LEFT yoke leg, that your bowstring is about to ROLL OFF THE CAM.


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## nuts&bolts

TURN your head MORE to the left, cuz you want to look OVER The top of the arrow...your NOSE should be pointed in the SAME direction as the arrow flight, turn your head as MUCH LEFT as you can....comfortably. NOT like this.

SEE what happens when you TURN your head to the LEFT? The TOO LONG draw length becomes rather OBVIOUS. STRING is now crossing BEHIND the skeleton's nose. END of arrow shaft is now BEHIND the corner of the jaw. JUST turning your HEAD to the RIGHT, to get the TOO LONG draw length string to touch your nose, is rather USELESS.

YOU still get THIS result.


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## nuts&bolts

Hey, if my draw length is 2-inches TOO LONG, I can TURN my head THIS much.



BUT, only one problem. I cannot see the target. NOTICE the skeleton is STILL LEANING BACKWARDS. What happens if the skeleton finally learns how to stand up STRAIGHT? THIS happens.



NOW, no matter HOW much you turn your head to the RIGHT...impossible to have the string touch your nose.



Notice the BIG BEND in the bow arm elbow. Notice the RIGHT elbow is BELOW the RELEASE WRIST. All not good.


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## nuts&bolts

HOW do ya fix this? Well, skeleton is finally standing up straight. Let's try a ZERO bend bow arm elbow, and let's try a SHORTER draw length, with TWO LEVEL shoulders. What happens to the skeleton, if the skeleton actually leans FORWARDS a little?



When I attach a wooden DOWEL to the RELEASE forearm, the RELEASE forearm forms a LINE that points to the BOTTOM of the WRIST.







The RELEASE forearm is now IN LINE behind the arrow. NOTICE the HEAD is turned so that the nose is pointed in the same direction as the arrow.
NOTICE the NEW release elbow position, DIRECTLY in line behind the arrow.


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## nuts&bolts

So, THIS is my long winded answer, WHY you are getting THIS result.



This should be your goal...two level shoulders.



TOPS of shoulders and arrow BOTH parallel = GOOD.



Right shoulder normal height, LEFT shoulder higher than your chin...so SHOULDERS are pointing UPHILL...with LEVEL arrow = NOT good.


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## VarmintSniper30

Fffvh


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## VarmintSniper30

Thank you for thoroughly explaining that it seriously help me make 10x's more sense of the situation


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## VarmintSniper30

Is this better sir. And I don't know how to get my left shoulder to go down


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## jljjdye

Looks pretty good


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## dsdhunts

still looks like your left elbow is wrong, your should be punching your chest not face iirc, 

also looks like your 3rd axis is better.

rotate left elbow clockwise, think the aquido arm trick were you can hang a 250 man with no effort.

I learned hand on heart hand shake bow without moving elbow


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Is this better sir. And I don't know how to get my left shoulder to go down


Looks great. Try to make a fist with the left hand, and then ONLY open the thumb and index finger, so the ONLY fingers that are not in a fist shape, is the thumb (point at the target)
and the pointer finger lightly wraps around the riser.



I call it the LOBSTER grip, cuz you only OPEN the THUMB and INDEX finger, to form a fork, with only two fingers.

The primary thing to focus on, is WHERE is your right forearm pointing. I have an exercise you can do, with NO bow. I call it the HUG a WALL exercise. Take a simple rope, and grab the rope with your right hand and your left hand, and get into the FULL draw position, holding this rope. NOW, just walk towards any wall, face is facing the wall. You want the BOW hand, holding the rope, to touch the wall. You want your ENTIRE right forearm to also touch the wall. THIS gives you the FEEL of your ENTIRE RIGHT FOREARM in line, with the rope, between your two hands.

You need to SIMULATE this FEEL of your ENTIRE RIGHT forearm, in line with the arrow. THIS way, you will get much better bareshaft arrow flight.

JUST like THIS.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Is this better sir. And I don't know how to get my left shoulder to go down




If you spin around and face the wall, as you walk towards the red wall...your bow hand, your release hand, and the ENTIRE right forearm should ALL be able to lightly touch the wall.

TWO shoulders are parallel to the arrow. You look just GREAT.


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## thwackaddict

Love the skeleton! What a great teaching tool!


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## watasha

tagggg


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## shootahoyt77

Mark for later


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## nuts&bolts

thwackaddict said:


> Love the skeleton! What a great teaching tool!


Ordered the skeleton from a medical school supply store. All joints are fully adjustable, just like in a person. Pricey. Bought it to use in my DVD. Exactly. I intended to use the skeleton for teaching purposes.



This is an exaggeration, but explains why 99% of the time, a bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of your fletched arrows, for a right handed shooter. If you get THIS bareshaft result, at only 10 YARDS, we do NOT have an arrow SPINE issue, we have a SERIOUS FORM issue.



THIS is the FIX, to get your bareshaft parallel to your fletched arrows at ONLY 10 yards.



Dowel strapped to the release side FOREARM. DOWEL needs to point in the SAME direction as the arrow, so this means, GET your ELBOW to SWING in line, behind your arrow.





Elbow UP high enough, so that a LONG dowel strapped to your release forearm, the LONG DOWEL crosses right at the bottom of your bow hand wrist, for MAX leverage to hold STEADY, at full draw.

Another shot of the skeleton, for WHY bareshafts miss to the RIGHT of the fletched arrow (LEFT paper tear). Arrow is pointed at the wooden post.


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## VarmintSniper30

Well after a few days of practice new form this is what I have at 9yds now 5/8in. On the right side of string


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## VarmintSniper30

9 yds


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Well after a few days of practice new form this is what I have at 9yds now 5/8in. On the right side of string


This one is nice....at 7:45 pm.


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> 9 yds


7:54pm picture, not so good.



PAy attention to your shoulders alignment. If you are right handed, CRANK/TWIST the upper body MUCH MUCH more clockwise, and get the TWO shoulders parallel to the arrow, at full draw, in a SUPER NARROW shooting stance.





See how the skeleton's shoulders are SUPER NARROW, near parallel to the arrow, when at full draw? There should be VERY VERY little space between the arrow and your LEFT shoulder, when you are at full draw.


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## VarmintSniper30

Do my cables look to twisted is there such a thing


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Do my cables look to twisted is there such a thing


YOu twist the current cables as MUCH as you need to, to get the results you are looking for. THEN, you press your bow, and you remove all the cables, and the bowstring...paper clip all three end loops for the buss cable...paper clip the control cable end loops together, paper clip the bowstring end loops together, and then have a NEW custom set made to exactly match your current, tuned and twisted lengths.

YES, your cables are kinda twisted up tight. When cables are twisted this tight, then, another half twist makes a REALLY large adjustment.


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## VarmintSniper30

Do you have a video for setting up draw length . I tried getting bow string closer to left shoulder but I get so bound up it's driving my left shoulder in and up. And now I feel like I have completely no idea what I'm doing. I'm still getting same result as yesterday pic


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## nuts&bolts

VarmintSniper30 said:


> Do you have a video for setting up draw length . I tried getting bow string closer to left shoulder but I get so bound up it's driving my left shoulder in and up. And now I feel like I have completely no idea what I'm doing. I'm still getting same result as yesterday pic


Send me a pm. Then, call me.


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## itsashooter

Saving for later


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## tgutierrez91

tagged


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## TRUE HUNT

tagged


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## iswandy

nuts&bolts said:


> Just adjust the bowstring,
> when you need a LARGE change in the bareshaft point of impact.
> 
> If the bareshafts are missing by a SMALL amount,
> then,
> we can work the yoke cable legs and PULL DOWN on one end of the top axle (add twists to the leg)
> and
> we can allow the other end of the top axle to RISE (remove twists in the other yoke leg).
> 
> 
> So,
> to prevent MASSIVE cam lean,
> I only recommend a MAX of 2 extra twists on one yoke leg,
> and
> I only recommend REMOVING a MAX of 2 twists on the other yoke leg.
> 
> After you get to this point...
> 
> and the bareshaft still needs to move sideways...
> 
> then,
> we make MEDIUM size adjustments for bareshaft point of impact
> with EXTRA TWISTS or REMOVING twists in the bowstring.
> 
> Then,
> we make LARGE size adjustments for bareshaft point of impact
> with a SHORTER or LONGER DL module
> or FIXED DL cam.


and this adding/removing twist of bow string apply to any cam system of compound bow? i'm confused after reading, let me refresh again (correct me if i'm wrong)

let say I'm RH shooter, and bare shafts hit to the LEFT of fletched arrows. than my FIX OPTION if this sideway nock travel is:
1. remove twist (lengthen) of LEFT yoke leg and add twist (shorten) of RIGHT yoke leg (apply to any compound bow with Y cable)
2. remove twist (lengthen) on both ends of bowstring (apply to any compound bow with any cam system) 
3. any other options?


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## HawkeyeBruiser

subscribed


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## Macmathews

Good detail right here


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## kballer1

Lots of use full information.


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## Jduff44

For later


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## SouthernStyle

Tuning binary cam for centershot

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts

SouthernStyle said:


> Tuning binary cam for centershot
> 
> Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk


My next project. Do a full tune for a binary cam bow.


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## Govtrapper

nuts&bolts said:


> My next project. Do a full tune for a binary cam bow.


I'm looking forward to that post

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts

Govtrapper said:


> I'm looking forward to that post
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Just got me a Bowsmith Pro (bow shooting machine). Plan to do a series, from start to finish.










Strother Moxie. Binary cam, with no yoke cables. I've been playing with stabilization and am getting best results so far, with lots of weight added directly to the riser, no side rod, and my usual front stabilizer (but with more weight than my usual). Just got the Bowsmith Pro. So, I do a start to finish, comparing human tuning results to machine tuning results and see where we end up. Human tuning is with the bow bone stock. Getting a right tear and had to grow my loop longer and had to max out the arrow rest to the left, to get a bullet hole while paper tuning, during human shooting. SO, I want to see what I need to do, to get the "tune" to run down the middle (more typical centershot). Yes, I have the DBLlungit, mini shim kit, so will go through that process as well.


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## nuts&bolts

Strother Moxie.  Binary cam bow. No yoke cables. Set the arrow rest centershot using two arrows. One arrow loaded on the arrow rest. Pinch a second arrow tight to the riser sight window and move the arrow rest until both arrows are parallel. This way, the arrow is pointing dead straight ahead. This assumes your riser is not twisted.

Fired a fletched arrow through the Bowsmith Pro paper tuner. Got a nasty low right tear. The Moxie has an angled cable slide.










Purpose is to reduce sideways torque on the cables, at full draw. Well, for a Right Handed bow, sure would be nice if I had yoke legs. Right tear, just add a twist or two to the right side yoke leg. BUT, with a binary cam bow, with no yoke legs, can't do that. So, what to do? Well, I just took off the angled cable slide and installed a standard cable slide. This way, the "standard" cable slide will pull the cables HARDER to the right.

BEFORE and AFTER paper tear.










With a standard cable slide, by pulling the cables MORE out of the way, to the right, when at full draw, we simulate the effects of adding twists to a right side yoke leg...even though we don't have any yoke legs on the Strother Moxie binary cam bow. I"ll keep working on the Moxie, to try and get rid of this right tear...and keep the arrow rest centershot, so that the arrow is running straight.


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## clay target guy

bump for great info


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## nuts&bolts

Success. Been putting the Bowsmith Pro through it's paces. So, bone stock, the Strother Moxie was giving me a flat right tear, 3/4-inch wide. I swapped out the angled cable slide (works like a Tilt Tamer) and put in a stock cable slide from my Maitland Zeus. That dropped the flat right tear, from 3/4-inch wide down to 1/4-inch wide.










Then, with a 1/4-inch wide flat right tear, I figured...let's do something different. Now, IF I had yoke legs, a right tear would be a simple fix, just ADD twists to shorten the right side yoke leg. When you shorten the right side yoke leg, what you are doing is PULLING down on the top axle, RIGHT end. Well, you can get the same effect by PUSHING UP on the top axle, LEFT end. So, I said to myself...let's see what happens with a little electrical tape, under the top left limb, to WEDGE the top left limb, to make the TOP left split limb work a skosh harder.



















I cut some strips of electrical tape, just a bit narrower than the top left split limb. Put maybe 5-6 layers of electrical tape. Had to completely tear down the bow, and take off the string and cables. Put the layers of electrical tape under the top left split limb, and then restrung the bow in the press. Fired several shots in the Bowsmith Pro, to settle the rigging.










Then, tested for the newest paper tear. BAM. Bullet hole on the first try. So, switch from a tilt tamer style cable slide, to a standard cable slide, a right tear will grow smaller. Wedge the top left split limb pocket, to slightly increase the load on the top left split limb, and then the right tear becomes a bullet hole. No shimming required. The Strother Moxie does not have much room for shimming the top cam sideways.

This is with the arrow rest centershot, set using two arrows. One arrow loaded on the arrow rest. One arrow pinched tight to the riser, just above the berger hole. Both arrows parallel to each other, basically both arrows pointing dead straight ahead. No lasers. No tape measure. Just make sure the edges of both arrows are parallel to each other. No special grip technique. No torquing required to get things to work. The arrow rest centershot position has the arrow running right on top of the front stabilizer. If you know how to tweak a bow, you can make practically any centershot position work. Shimming the underside of the top left limb, to make the top left limb work a bit HARDER is EQUAL to, adding a twist or two, to a RIGHT yoke leg on a hybrid cam bow. Since this is a no yoke cable binary cam bow, 5 strips of electrical tape did the work. The POWER-stroke of the bowstring is running down the centerline of the front stab, dead straight ahead. Bottom line, the top left limb was running a bit weak, and the electrical tape shims under neath the top left limb, FIXED the situation. Onto the next stage of tuning.


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## zernzm08

Tag


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## nuts&bolts

Fired a bareshaft today, to check how much steering correction the vanes are providing. Bareshaft looks like a slight high tear (vertical only). That works for me for a blade rest. This test is only to confirm that I shimmed the upper left split limb enough (5-6 layers or electrical tape), to KILL the 3/4-inch right paper tear, when the Strother Moxie was bone stock. So, how did I pick the centershot position, before I started swapping out the cable slide, before I started shimming/wedging the upper left limb pocket? I used two arrows. I wanted the arrow rest centershot position, for DEAD straight ahead.










The riser, YOUR riser should be dead straight (as in not twisted). So, if you use a rubber band to help you hold your arrow tight to the riser, then, this second arrow is an excellent reference for what direction is dead straight ahead. I wrapped my arrow with white paper, so it's easier for you guys to see. TWEAK the arrow rest horizontal position, until both arrows are parallel. You just want to get pretty close to two parallel arrows, cuz this is the very BEGINNING of tuning. I just wanted to kill the 3/4-inch right tear, as much as possible. I got a 3/4-inch right paper tear from thIS arrow rest position. Had to move the arrow rest all the way to the LEFT, to the max, to get close to a bullet hole...zero room remaining to tune my blade rest more left. Not acceptable. So, with NO MOVING of the arrow rest, I proceeded to do a "FRONT END alignment". The swap to a standard cable slide helped tremendously. The last step was the strips of electrical tape under the top left limb. This is VERY tunable, meaning YOUR bow (if you have a right tear) might need 3 strips of electrical tape, or 4 strips of electrical tape under the upper left limb. I needed 5-6 strips of electrical tape. You get the idea. The electrical tape took the 1/4-inch RIGHT paper tear to a ZERO horizontal paper tear. No shimming required on the top axle.

"BUT BUT BUT, a shooting machine does not HOLD the bow like I do." YEAH...YEAH...YEAH. I modified the bow holder on the shooting machine with a roller bushing, so the bow riser is held at full draw, DEAD SQUARE to the arrow. So, I get a bullet hole with a fletched arrow, when a DEAD SQUARE grip is used on the grip of the Moxie. So, I get a slight vertical (high) tear, with a bareshaft, when a DEAD SQUARE grip is used on the grip of the Moxie. PICK the arrow rest centershot position, YOU want. Then, tune the bow for results, with THAT centershot position. I picked the arrow rest centershot position first. Then, next was the cable slide change. Then, next after that, was shimming the upper left limb pocket. On to the next step.


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## frd567

In for the finish on the Moxie tune.


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## nuts&bolts2

frd567 said:


> In for the finish on the Moxie tune.


I installed the bareshaft Bow Hand for the Bowsmith Pro. The bareshaft bow hand has only two urethane rubber rings (edges are beveled). I slid the rubber rings close together, more narrow than the riser, so the beveled edges of the rubber rings support the curve on the underside of the arrow shelf. This means, any errors in bow tuning, will torque the riser, cuz there is very little contact patch between the riser and the narrow edges of the rubber rings on the Bareshaft Bow Holder.























































I am really liking this Bowsmith Pro. It helped me diagnose a weak upper left limb. I had to move the blade rest to the MAX to the left, to get anywhere close to a bullet hole, while paper tuning. Arrow was OBVIOUSLY crooked left. Now, the arrow runs right above the front stab, arrow on the arrow rest points dead straight ahead. Arrow rest is no longer maxed out to the left. The Moxie is ready to rock and roll now. On to the next step of tuning.


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## frd567

I shoot a Moxie and just out of curiosity could you tell me what you ended up with for center shot riser to center of arrow?


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## nuts&bolts2

frd567 said:


> I shoot a Moxie and just out of curiosity could you tell me what you ended up with for center shot riser to center of arrow?


I had a massive right tear, had to max out my arrow rest to the left. Had no more room for centershot adjustment. Arrow was obviously pointed crooked left. So, I shimmed the upper left riser support, for the top left limb (5 layers of electrical tape) to move the centershot closer to dead straight ahead.



















NEW centershot position for the arrow rest.




























63/64ths of an inch, measured from arrow tube centerline to the riser.


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## nuts&bolts2

By tweaking the number of layers of electrical tape, in this upper left riser contact point, I can make NEARLY any centershot position, create a bullet hole. Another layer of electrical tape, would move the "bullet hole" centershot position, a little closer to the riser.


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## frd567

thanks


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## Jduff44

Tagged


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## Razorbak

tag


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## Nocker

Tag!


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## Oncorhynchus

Tagged


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## ERT

Subscribed.


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## Peanutbuttah

Taggging this thread, gotta come back and keep reading.


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## Ruttin BUX

Tagged


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## bowenfish

Tagged


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## ramsey1960

The "Nuts and Bolts of Archery" is a must read. Learned alot


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## Narf

Tagged

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## Nocker

Tagged for sure!


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