# Why do Easton X10's tune the same with 100 gr or 120gr



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

brb - 

I'm assuming this is a recurve.

Nowhere near enough info. If changing one tuning parameter DOESN'T give the expected results, the standard answer is that something is over-ridding the change. Step one would be to MAKE the arrow act weaker. Move your plunger in a few turns, raise the brace height, turn down the bolts - pick one or more and try it with a drastic change. Even though you might not want to shoot that way, you'll know if the rig is responding correctly. 

Are you trying to bareshaft at 20, 40, yds, 70M?, where? 

In MY experience a 20 gr detla in head weight may not show up at closer ranges, unless you're groups are VERY tight. 

IMHO, the tungston tisp wouldn't help as much as you might think.

Viper1 out.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

*Easton X10's*

I totally agree with Viper.

What I might suggest is that you look at the results of adding (i.e 100 to 120 gr.) weight after you access the shot pattern during the "fine tuning" process.

Rick Stonebraker has written an excellent document, "Tuning for Tens" that can be found on the following web site.

http://www.texasarchery.org/L1/DocumentsRecords.htm

Go to section 6; The beginning of fine tuning. i.e this is the drop method.

Rick suggests you look at the pattern at 30, 40, 50 etc. meters (as Viper recommends). I think you will find a difference in arrow spine and patterns if you follow this tuning method carefully.

I found this very effective. I was making sight adjustments at 50, 70 and 90 meters and never understood why until I read Rick Stonebrakers document. My bare shaft and fletched shaft groups were very tight at 18 meters! 

Regards and Good Shooting,


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

brbarrow said:


> I am trying to weaken my Easton X10 410 arrows by increasing the point weight from 100 gr. to 120 gr. However, I repeatedly get the same results out of bare shaft testing. I believe Easton's answer for this problem is to use tungston points in order to achieve the correct front of center. I would just like to confirm this before I make a costly investment. I've already exhausted all other means of weakening my arrows with the exception of shooting X10 450's.


To answer your specific questions "Why do Easton X10's tune the same with 100 gr or 120gr ".

For the x-10 arrows in SS Easton makes 110/100/90 gr points only. You have to go with tungsten points if you want to shoot with 120 gr.

With the SS points (for x-10 only), the point weight will not weaken the arrow. While you reducing the point weight (i.e. making an arrow effectively stiffer), you will also get rid of a long part of the point inside the arrow. This part made the arrow acting stiffer. So one action will negate another.

With the 120gr tungsten point, you will not only increase the weight (arrow will act weaker) but you will have a very short length of the point inside the shaft (will also act weaker).


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## Toxothise1440 (Nov 30, 2008)

mbu said:


> To answer your specific questions "Why do Easton X10's tune the same with 100 gr or 120gr ".
> 
> For the x-10 arrows in SS Easton makes 110/100/90 gr points only. You have to go with tungsten points if you want to shoot with 120 gr.
> 
> ...


That's the same answer I got about that in an Easton seminar. It is because of the mechanical length of the part inside the arrow.


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

mbu said:


> To answer your specific questions "Why do Easton X10's tune the same with 100 gr or 120gr ".
> 
> For the x-10 arrows in SS Easton makes 110/100/90 gr points only. You have to go with tungsten points if you want to shoot with 120 gr.
> 
> ...



So if a break-off point doesn't change the spine, what's the use to be a break-off? or why they don't do a different points with differente weights and with the same intern lenght?


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Borja1300 said:


> So if a break-off point doesn't change the spine, what's the use to be a break-off? or why they don't do a different points with differente weights and with the same intern lenght?


To answer on your 1st questions "what's the use to be a break-off?" - one of the more obvious answers is that some archers will need a slightly lighter arrow to be able to shoot at the longest distance. The group size should also be a consideration, not just the "dynamic spine" (some might argue that this is not a right terminology, but most will understand this definition). 

As far as your 2nd question, "why they don't do a different points with differente weights and with the same intern lenght?", please read a direct and a very detailed answer by the designer of the SS points. 

Post #44 at http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?t=25973&page=3


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

Thanks for your answer.

This also the same for the SS points of ACE?


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Borja1300 said:


> Thanks for your answer.
> 
> This also the same for the SS points of ACE?


I believe that due to a larger inside diameter/shorter insert part in comparison to the x-10 arrows, the ACE SS break-off points act "normally" (i/e. arrows will act "stiffer" with lighter points). Also, in ACE SS Break-off points you have several options: 60-70-80, 80-90-100, 100-110-120. So, for example, if you want to shoot with 100 gr point, you can use either a full length 80-90-100 or 100-110-120 with 2 sections removed. In this example, the 100-110-120 with 2 sections removed will have more weight upfront due to a larger size/weight of the point head and a shorter part inside the arrow.

The ACE arrows also have an "ACE Screw-in Points/Inserts" option, which also produces a slightly different "tune" with the same weight.


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

That's what I thought.

Thanks again


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## brbarrow (Feb 1, 2009)

*Thanks*

Thanks for the help. Using Rick Stonebrakers guide to tuning I was able to determine if my size of x10's was appropriate. They were and while working through the tuning method a simple 1/2 turn of the plunger corrected my tuning problems. I am disappointed that you can not use point weight in x10's as a tuning tool without shelling out big money for tungston points. For those just starting out in archery I would highly recommend using ACE's or another brand of arrow in which you can use point weight as a tuning tool.


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## Toxothise1440 (Nov 30, 2008)

That's sort of "silly". 

You can do a lot more with a little bit of bow weight adjustment than with point weight. None of the carbon arrows show much tune change unless you shift point weight by a lot. But all of them tune easily with the right bow weight.


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

I have a new x-10 point that addresses this issue. If your arrow is on the weak side, my new point is for you. They are 120 grains to start with and you have marks every 5 grains to lighten them. The pins are long so they make the arrow act stiffer. With the stock point at 110 grains and breaking it off to 100 and then to 90 gains, I gained a net 4" to the stiff side by dropping 20 grains (not much). My point at 100 grains moved the arrow 11 inches to the stiff side at 30 meters from the stock point bare shaft with a similar (almost identicle) FOC. Also, my point is shorter in the head so will not bend as easily as the stock point. 
See pic.


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

In my setup, I have always been between the 410 and the 450 X-10 in tune. The 450 is weak for me but I can make it work with a stiff plunger(not my favorite options) The 410 will tune slightly stiff with the max point weight on the Stainless point (110 grains) and is a more desirable tune for me, but the mass or grain weight nets 30 grains heavier!!! This slows my rig down to a crawl (also not real desirable). So I tested this point. I now have the same grain weight as before in point and total weight, but tune right where I like it giving me my 30 grains of speed back! Any thoughts from the forum out there? These are being produced as we read and write. I was so happy with the results that I went into production. The total weight un-cut is 120 grains of heat treated stainless so cheaper than tungsten. Just a bit more than the stock stainless point!


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

No thoughts or comments about this point?


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Jurasic Archer said:


> No thoughts or comments about this point?


well done! Long overdue and needed to have an alternative to W points... however... the only time I have bent an X10 are times when the shaft of the old SS pointes was involved. I have ruined a few because of that long shaft. Now with W points I have the short shaft which seems to be forgiving of my usual blunder which is shooting into the dirt after forgetting to re-set my sight.


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## yeeha (Nov 23, 2007)

*New Points*

Where can i get the new points thanks Bob


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

First impression is I like the short point, looks really nice and will be readily mistaken for tungsten, and the shorter point should mean less leverage to bend the pin. The only bends I’ve had were at the base of the point, so replacing the point fixed the problem. 

A couple of questions, I can’t see the 5gr break-off sections in the photo, are they snap-off or do we saw/file? Also, would heat be an issue in removing the point because of the long pin? Do you recommend limiting glue to the front half of the pin or is this a non-issue as far as heat is concerned?

Otherwise, I think its a matter of figuring out what it all means, lol. For instance, the pin is longer than the SS’s, but to maintain arrow length (let’s say I like my arrow to extend to the front edge of my riser, for example) I would need a longer shaft body w/ your points. The picture you have shows that nicely. 

So, if I use a 110gr point now and they tune well, would the longer pin offset the longer shaft for an equal trade-off in spine/tuning, meaning if I’m buying new shafts I should use the same spine when switching to the new "MGI" point? 

BTW, nicely done.


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

Thanks for the encouraging words!! These should be in my hand next Wednesday (that is when they are due back from heat treating). They are 45.00 a dozen. 
The pics: The one in my arrow is the first version that had a break off at 110 to 100 grains. I then tested the second version in the pic without the break off. I was thinking that it worked so well that I went longer and 120 grains to start. First thininking was to start full length and cut down in small increments until you get the tune you want. The third and final revision was to add the marks every five grains. No break off. I cut mine with my arrow cut off tool. 
Instructions are to add hot melt to only the first 1/2" (from point back) while tuning. Once the length desired is determined then to install semi permanent (so still removable) go 1-2" from point back with low temp hot melt. You are right Seattle, the 120 gr point in the pic does not have the 5 gr graduations in it. Final revision does though. 
I do have an online store, but they are not on it yet. I expect to have the packaging and have them up in the next two weeks. If someone is anxious, I should be able to ship by this time next week. 
Cheers,
MG


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

Sorry, I missed a couple of questions. Point length is .565 compared to the stock point length of 1". At 100gr on my point compared to 100 grain stock ss point, my arrow moved 11" to the stiff side at 30 meters comparing bare shafts. Stock point was weak side of the group by 3-4", my point was stiff side of the fletched arrow group by 7-8". The fletched arrows grouped almost identicle at 30 m and foc was very close. I had a bare shaft in the ten ring on my third adjustment. 
If your arrow is stiff now, these will not help you! If you are on the weak side, they will help a bunch!!! 
If you are on the stiff side, try the Beiter out nock to weaken up the tune. It is the only way I know of to weaken this arrow if at max point weight.
If on the weak side, before my point, cutting from the back end was the best way to stiffen them up. My point makes a greater effect than cutting from the rear. 
Hope this helps.
MG


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## Toxothise1440 (Nov 30, 2008)

I attended an Easton seminar a few months ago. At the seminar the speaker made a big deal about how you need to have glue all along the point so it can't rattle or buzz. I can't find my notes from the seminar at the moment but I remember, he did a demonstration and claimed this was imoportant. I do remember he said it can cause problems with grouping at long distance.

If you have only part of the point shank covered in hot melt, won't it be a problem? Or was the Easton expert wrong?


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

I know I have never tested this statement, so cannot comment on it. I have also never had a point rattle or buzz from not enough hot melt though. I recommended doing the first half inch during the tuning sessions for easy removal. Once the desired tune is achieved I recommended going 2" up the shaft with fresh hot melt. While the point is goint in and out of the arrow (for tuning), I assumed it would have hot melt on the entire pin even if only laying it on 2" up when done with the testing, just not as heavy on the end of the pin. If you are not planning on taking them out again, there is not a reason not to lay glue down at the end. Removal would have to be a slow low temp process so as not to damage the carbon on the arrow if glued all the way. It will take time for heat to transfer that far up the shaft.


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## Brandeis_Archer (Dec 20, 2006)

Well, if I get X10s, I know what points I'll be putting in them! They look super!


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

The first production run has been completed, heat treated and polished and are ready to ship. Anyone want to see what it looks like with the five grain markers on it? They are marked from 120 to 90 grains in 5 grain increments.

Cheers,
Mike Gerard


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

Ok, here you go!


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

just the shank


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## clement (Feb 5, 2009)

How and where can I order your product?

Thanks


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

PM'd you,
Thanks! 
I hope to have them out in distribution soon. Web page is down but will be up by the end of the week. 
Jurassicarchery.com

Cheers,
Mike Gerard


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## clement (Feb 5, 2009)

PM'd you too with some more info.
Please check.

Thanks!


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## taker (Mar 4, 2004)

Will they do the same on X-10 pro tour??


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

Yes, they will stiffen the pro tour as well.


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## Phill Betts (Dec 26, 2004)

Hi, can you send me the order information as well.
Thanks


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