# Feel of pull between recurve and longbows?



## RoscoeP23 (Feb 27, 2013)

I shot a 49# longbow today and it seemed smoother or easier than a lower poundage recurve bow. Anyone have an opinion on this or can speak from first hand experience? Is there a difference in the feel of the weight, the longbow was 2" longer than the recurve I was shooting.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Longbows definitely feel different. How, probably depends on what you started with. I started with recurves, so to me, the recurves feel smoother and easier to pull. Some folks think the opposite. The longbow seems more homogenous in the pull which makes sense for something closer to a simple beam. Below is a smoothness chart (first derivative of the draw force curve) showing an extreme recurve, conventional recurve, and a traditional longbow. You can see that there is a lot more preload with the recurves that I show here. Also, the recurves have a distinct minimum (near where the string lift point) where pounds per inch is very low. You would think that a longbow would have a flat smoothness curve, but I have not seen that in the bows I have tested so far. All three of these bows pull about the same weight at my draw length. The Falco does have reflex when unstrung. I need to test a flat board to see if the curve ends up level.

HEX6 = Extreme recurve
PSE ProElite = Conventional recurve
Falco Trophy = Continuous curve longbow


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## Nicholas Sexton (Dec 2, 2014)

Longer bows just seem to pull easier, I guess.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

RoscoeP23 said:


> I shot a 49# longbow today and it seemed smoother or easier than a lower poundage recurve bow. Anyone have an opinion on this or can speak from first hand experience? Is there a difference in the feel of the weight, the longbow was 2" longer than the recurve I was shooting.


IMHO?.....Bow length plays a huge role in "Perceived" draw weight feel...for instance?...the 62"/42# limb set on my old Bob Lee TD Hunter felt about the same feel as the 64"/46# limb set...and the latter actually felt smoother despite being 4#'s more draw weight...although the 42# limbs seemed to perform just as well and actually felt and appeared to be just as snappy if not a touch snappier than the 4# heavier, 2" longer Limbs.

As far as distinguishing a smoother draw based on limb geometry goes?...(recurve VS longbow)....I think "that" depends largely on the design, build quality and what materials the limbs are made of....I've got a $630 set of Sky TR7 Double Carbon/Bamboo Core limbs on my Morrison riser that's 64"/35# I'd pit against the smoothest longbow I've ever drawn...then again?.....I have a 64"/37# R/D Longbow that's faster than sin on a drunk Saturday night but draws stiff....then I have the 66"/32# Falco D-Longbow that draws like oiled glass and it may be as smooth feeling as the TR7 equipped Morrison but at 3#'s less weight so?..bottom line?...it's all very subjective...with shared opinions based on experience but with no real answer to your question. :laugh:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

It depends.

On what you mean by smooth, what bows you're comparing, and how far you're pulling them.

Specifically, try and see, and you'll know how they feel different, and what feels smoother to you.

Be aware, though, that a lot of what may feel smooth, subjectively, has a lot to do with what you've gotten used to.

Objectively, it seems that bows feel less smooth when they start to reallly stack hard. If you look at hanks data, you will see that the recurves will flatten compared to the long bow for awhile, but shortly after the point where the string lifts off the limb, and the leverage no longer increases, the curve jumps up. 

So, conceivably, a recurve could be smoother than a long bow up to a certain draw length, and then not So much, or less so, beyond that.

Another facet to consider, some people don't like smooth at the very end of their draw, but rather prefer the feeling of a soft wall, so to speak.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> Be aware, though, that a lot of what may feel smooth, subjectively, hhas a lot to do with what you've gotten used to.


That was my point also. We try something new and it feels different. We try to characterize the difference. For me, the longbow felt like I was pulling similarly throughout the draw. Of course, that may be a perception based on my expectation that a longbow is like a simple beam. It is hard to be a subjective observer if you have already have an idea what to expect.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Longbows store less energy (generalization) so what you are feeling is less energy being required to reach the same draw length. I know for me I can shoot a smooth longbow which is substantially heavier then a smooth recurve with similar levels of fatigue. However the recurve will outperform the longbow even at a much lower draw weight simply because it has stored more energy.

-Grant


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Grant, 

That is true. We put energy into a bow when we pull and not pounds like many folks think. That energy comes from the archer.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Yes grant, I completely forgot the qualification of smooth at what part of the draw.

Somebody who isn't used to putting much energy into the beginning of the draw will find bows with more stored energy, like a super recurve, or a modern compound bow, and find them relatively difficult to GET to full draw, regardless of the holding weight.

My wife can handle a 50# recurve for a limited time, just fine, because she holds and draws with efficient alignment. Had a heck of a time getting a 40# compound to full draw, mostly because of the beginning of the draw cycle. She also found my 46# border 'super' recurve a bit awkward, because it piles on the weight early, before it evens out at the end. Having got used to it, it now feels perfect, but for the first few tugs, it felt like a 55# recurve bow that had some kind of hidden let off mechanism...

Fascinating, it is!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Grant,
> 
> That is true. We put energy into a bow when we pull and not pounds like many folks think. That energy comes from the archer.


Hank, I think both are important. If you can't handle the holding weight while relaxed, you have a problem. If putting in the work to get to full draw fatigues you, you've got a problem. I have seen compound shooters who could barely get over the hump blow shots because even with let-off, the work required to get there had already done them in. They couldn't have shot a rifle well if they had one.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Longbows store less energy (generalization) so what you are feeling is less energy being required to reach the same draw length. I know for me I can shoot a smooth longbow which is substantially heavier then a smooth recurve with similar levels of fatigue. However the recurve will outperform the longbow even at a much lower draw weight simply because it has stored more energy.
> 
> -Grant


Honestly, looking at all of the Backy's tests- I don't think that statement is as true is people think it is.

Longbows generally have a shorter brace height than recurves. This produces a longer power stroke. So for a given energy storage, the "pull" is spread out over a longer distance. Sorta like a pushing a cart up an inclined plane. The end height may be the same, but the longbow gives you a slightly gentler slope.


Hank- how many bows have you tested? I'm slowly building up my "lab" (using that term very loosely) equipment to do my won tests. I built a coil crono- next up is draw board / shooting machine...

BM


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have about 50 bow test results in my database. Some is analysis of data sent to me by others. I currently have a worm gear draw board, chrono and a shooting machine. Analysis is done using a program that stores data, calculates key properties and allows bows to be compared by selecting on pull down menus. I have recently moved from comparative testing to foundation testing, where I am looking at some of the fundamental factors that affect performance.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Aronnax, the power stroke point is a good one. Lower brace height is the same as giving a longer draw length, when it comes to the effective power stroke. If you've got a recurve with brace height of 9", and a long bow that shoots well with a brace height of 6 (I haven't shot one, but they supposedly exist), it would have to be a heck of a recurve to even out the stored energy.

However, I have a couple of recurves that shoot well (at least, in my relative sense of the world. All of you national and world champions, I'm sure your bows can shoot more accurately, when _you_ are the ones shooting them  ), with brace heights at 6 5/8", and they downright hurl arrows.

Then again, Grant did qualify 'Generally', so I don't think he'd disagree with it.

When you boil it down, you're talking about the specifics of a draw force curve at any given draw length, and implementation (be it riser, brace height of the setup, etc). Recurves will store more energy for a given draw weight, so long as that draw length is at or before the 'stack' point, as determined by where the curve departs from the line between the 0 point and the bottom of the upward curve following the string lift points.

If you've got a really long draw, really short limbs with little hooks, have braced it high, whatever, the inverted S shape, with the upper hollow, could wind up, in certain situations, negating the greater stored energy at the very beginning of the draw. For example, if you've got a Bear SuperMag 48, which has a pretty high brace height of like 9" I think, drawn to 30" (which I don't think you can really safely do), I'd wager that a good longbow, like an Omega, at the same draw length, is going to smoke it at a given holding weight at 30".

Border Hex 6 or 7's, on a riser that allows proper setup with a brace in the same range, totally different scenario, opposite extreme of recurve possibilities, arguably a different animal entirely.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

For example, some samples from Blacky's Bow Reports-

Fancy carbon/foam trad tech ILF recurve, $600+ limbs (LAS listed retail price)-
http://www.archeryreports.com/index...r-carbon-extreme-bf-limbs.html?category_id=88
Stored energy per lb draw force- .91
Dyanmic Efficiency- 81.6%

Fancy carbon/foam takedown A&H longbow
http://www.archeryreports.com/index...em/ah-archery-acs-cx-copy.html?category_id=77
Stored energy per lb draw force- .93
Dyanmic Efficiency- 85.9%

Not fancy 1pc wooden recurve- 
http://www.archeryreports.com/index...ing-green-super-kodiak-60.html?category_id=72
Stored energy per lb draw force- .84
Dyanmic Efficiency- 82.2%

Another wood recurve-
http://www.archeryreports.com/index...oak-creations-puma-hunter.html?category_id=72
Stored energy per lb draw force- .95
Dyanmic Efficiency- 79.3%
Lots of stored energy, but the efficiency is poo.

If you had two bows that fired the same arrrow at the same velocity, but one stores less energy and is more efficient (same holding draw weight) than he other, which would be more pleasant to shoot? Which would "feel" easier to draw?

BM


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Much of what 'feels' easier or smoother is based on expectations, a.k.a., what you're used to. If you're not used to much energy put into the draw force curve at the beginning (as recurves tend to do), the longbow may feel smoother. If you're used to a more linear curve toward the end of the draw (like a long bow), a 'smoother' draw, like a super recurve, may feel awkward.


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## huckleberg (Jan 15, 2015)

This kinda nerd talk makes me :grin::set1_applaud::rockhard::happy:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Lets look at it from a ridiculous perspective:

2 bows: one stores 40 units of energy but is 50% efficient with a 10gpp arrow, the other stores 20 units of energy but is 100% efficient with a 10gpp arrow. For arguments sake both will have the same speed.
Reduce them down to 5gpp and have them each lose 20% of their initial efficiency. Suddenly one is 40% efficient and the other is 80% efficient. The bow which is higher efficiency is going to gain more speed going with the lighter arrow and can probably withstand that treatment better.
Increase them up to 15gpp and you see the opposite. The bow with low efficiency will gain relative to the bow which is already operating at maximum efficiency. This is where you see the difference between a high energy/lower efficiency design and a low energy/high efficiency design.

In the real world things aren't quite so clear cut. My highest energy bow is also my most efficient. However it doesn't like really light (sub 7gpp) arrows and it LOVES heavy ones.
One of my longbows also loves heavy arrows because it stores decent amounts of energy but has physically heavy limbs.
They have completely different feels when drawing them and even though the longbow is 5# heavier, it doesn't tire me as much.

-Grant


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