# NY crossbow bill



## thesource

One wonders why a crossbow petition in NY is any business of someone from TN.

Why don't you let NY sportsmen determine what is best for NY sportsmen?

Thanks.


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## baldntatted

because i lived in upstate ny for 23 years and then moved to TN and besides are we not all sportmen don't know why it should matter what state we live in.


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## thesource

The state's sportsmen, who must live daily with any regulation enacted, are infinitely more important than just any old sportsman who may or may not be impacted in the slightest by such a regulation.

I strongly suggest that the will of a state's sportsmen should not be interfered with.

A less subtle way of saying that is non-residents should mind their own business.


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## Yellowfin

If more people will hunt because they have more means to do so, then we all benefit. If it's something that anti-hunting sickos aren't able to tell us not to do, then it's also a victory. That's about the only way I see it as being non-residents' business, but good enough reason for me.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> The state's sportsmen, who must live daily with any regulation enacted, are infinitely more important than just any old sportsman who may or may not be impacted in the slightest by such a regulation.
> 
> I strongly suggest that the will of a state's sportsmen should not be interfered with.
> 
> A less subtle way of saying that is non-residents should mind their own business.



Tell that to P&Y and their "coalition"


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> Tell that to P&Y and their "coalition"


You mean the *NORTH AMERICAN* Bowhunting Coalition? The one with continental implications right in its name?

Imagine that.


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## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> You mean the *NORTH AMERICAN* Bowhunting Coalition? The one with continental implications right in its name?
> 
> Imagine that.


Implications is about as far as it gets. NABC claims they represent many. Look on their affiliated page and you get just 3. Must be 1 million in each group huh? The Greedy Two plus one. P&Y, PBS and a traditional organization. All telling each other they're only trying to protect bow hunting. I'm sure the guy in NY that can't hunt and is missing an arm and a leg is a major threat. Same old greedy bunch crying our future is at stake. Give me a tissue please.

But lets dissect their claim a little deeper. I picked one group that popped up in a search that supports NABC, Montana Bowhunters Association. They only have 900 members but claim to speak for _every_ Montana bowhunter. Sound familiar? Other groups you have to wonder are Ducks Unlimited and The NWTF. Lots of archers shooting ducks I'm sure. Neither have a view on crossbows. Most turkeys and ducks are shot with a gun. They're gun groups. It's easy to question a lot of the others in their so called list of supporters. And then one of the biggest, Archery Trade Association. We all know who they are. They're far from anti-crossbow. In fact they have a anti-P&Y statement right on their web site. All about their one sided by invitation only summit. Well they're not stupid. Why let anyone in when there's a chance some of those 3, ahem, million might learn the truth? 

So there you have it, a rule #8 summit by rule #8 people. Any doubts? Just ask 'em and they'll tell you. They or their loyal Kool-aid drinking supporters wouldn't give you any misleading implications.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> You mean the *NORTH AMERICAN* Bowhunting Coalition? The one with continental implications right in its name?
> 
> Imagine that.



in other words people who are trying to influence state laws in states were most of them do not live

thanks for the concession source


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## spctbone

BigBirdVA said:


> Implications is about as far as it gets. NABC claims they represent many. Look on their affiliated page and you get just 3. Must be 1 million in each group huh? The Greedy Two plus one. P&Y, PBS and a traditional organization. All telling each other they're only trying to protect bow hunting. I'm sure the guy in NY that can't hunt and is missing an arm and a leg is a major threat. Same old greedy bunch crying our future is at stake. Give me a tissue please.
> 
> But lets dissect their claim a little deeper. I picked one group that popped up in a search that supports NABC, Montana Bowhunters Association. They only have 900 members but claim to speak for _every_ Montana bowhunter. Sound familiar? Other groups you have to wonder are Ducks Unlimited and The NWTF. Lots of archers shooting ducks I'm sure. Neither have a view on crossbows. Most turkeys and ducks are shot with a gun. They're gun groups. It's easy to question a lot of the others in their so called list of supporters. And then one of the biggest, Archery Trade Association. We all know who they are. They're far from anti-crossbow. In fact they have a anti-P&Y statement right on their web site. All about their one sided by invitation only summit. Well they're not stupid. Why let anyone in when there's a chance some of those 3, ahem, million might learn the truth?
> 
> So there you have it, a rule #8 summit by rule #8 people. Any doubts? Just ask 'em and they'll tell you. They or their loyal Kool-aid drinking supporters wouldn't give you any misleading implications.



WELL SAID!


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> in other words people who are trying to influence state laws in states were most of them do not live
> 
> thanks for the concession source


poor Jim.....

It is an international organization, comprised of members from all states.

To speak in terms of jurisdiction...it would be federal. Of course they can influence states.

Silly lad.


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## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> Implications is about as far as it gets. NABC claims they represent many. Look on their affiliated page and you get just 3. Must be 1 million in each group huh? The Greedy Two plus one. P&Y, PBS and a traditional organization.


LOL. Not a very skilled researcher, are you?

First you contradict yourself by adding a 4th group:


BigBirdVA said:


> I picked one group that popped up in a search that supports NABC, Montana Bowhunters Association.


Secondly...it looks like you might have missed these:
*Alabama Society of Traditional
Bowmen
Alaskan Bowhunters Association
Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Traditional Bowhunters
Archery Big Bucks of Missouri
Archery Past (OR)
Association of Traditional Hunting
Archers
Bayou State Bowhunters (LA)
Bob’s Archery Sales (CO)
Bowhunting Council of Oklahoma
Bowhunters of Alabama
Bowhunters of Wyoming
Carolina Traditional Archers
Colorado Bowhunters Association
Compton Traditional Bowhunters
Georgia Bowhunters Association
Green Mountain Traditional
Bowhunters
Horse Creek Traditional Archery Club
(FL)
Idaho State Bowhunters
Idaho Traditional Bowhunters
Illinois Bowhunters Society
Indiana Bowhunters Association
Iowa Bowhunters Association
Iowa Traditional Bowhunters Society
Kansas Bowhunters Association
Lone Star Bowhunters Association
(TX)
Maine Bowhunters Association
Maine Traditional Archers
Maryland Bowhunters Society
Maryland Bowhunters Society
Massachusetts Bowhunters
Association
Michigan Bow Hunters Association
Michigan Traditional Bowhunters
Minnesota Bowhunters, Inc.
Mississippi Bowhunters Association
Missouri Bow Hunters Association
Montana Bowhunters Association
Nebraska Bowhunters Association
Nebraska Traditional Archers
New York Bowhunters, Inc.
North Carolina Bowhunters
Association
North Dakota Bowhunters Association
Northern Bowhunters Association (AB)
Ohio Bowhunters Association
Oregon Bow Hunters
Pennsylvania Association of
Traditional Hunting Archers
Pope and Young Club
Professional Bowhunters Society
South Carolina Bowhunters
Association
South Dakota Bowhunters, Inc.
Suburban Whitetail Management of
North Georgia
Suncoast Archers, Inc. (FL)
Tallahassee Bowhunters Association
(FL)
Traditional Bowhunters of California
Traditional Bowhunter Magazine
Traditional Archers of New Jersey
Traditional Archers of Oregon
Traditional Bowhunters of Florida
Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia
Traditional Bowhunters of Montana
Traditional Bowhunters of Washington
United Bowhunters of Connecticut
United Bowhunters of Illinois
United Bowhunters of Kentucky
United Bowhunters of Missouri
United Bowhunters of New Jersey
United Bowhunters Pennsylvania
Virginia Bowhunters Association
Wakulla Archery Club (FL)
Washington State Bowhunters
Washington State Archery Association
West Virginia Bowhunters Association
Wisconsin Bowhunters Association*

Now don't you look silly!


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> poor Jim.....
> 
> It is an international organization, comprised of members from all states.
> 
> To speak in terms of jurisdiction...it would be federal. Of course they can influence states.
> 
> Silly lad.


LOL-it just gets lamer and lamer. ITs a bunch of selfish whiners who want to keep that guy big bird mentioned from hunting and "stealing" their deer. 

what we have is source whining about us if we vote in a poll involving say NY or Illinois but supporting some greedy bigots who want to lobby state legislatures to exclude a crippled vet just so people with major league self esteem issues can feel better about their own status.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL. Not a very skilled researcher, are you?
> 
> First you contradict yourself by adding a 4th group:
> 
> 
> Secondly...it looks like you might have missed these:
> *Alabama Society of Traditional
> Bowmen
> Alaskan Bowhunters Association
> Alberta Bowhunters Association
> Alberta Traditional Bowhunters
> Archery Big Bucks of Missouri
> Archery Past (OR)
> Association of Traditional Hunting
> Archers
> Bayou State Bowhunters (LA)
> Bob’s Archery Sales (CO)
> Bowhunting Council of Oklahoma
> Bowhunters of Alabama
> Bowhunters of Wyoming
> Carolina Traditional Archers
> Colorado Bowhunters Association
> Compton Traditional Bowhunters
> Georgia Bowhunters Association
> Green Mountain Traditional
> Bowhunters
> Horse Creek Traditional Archery Club
> (FL)
> Idaho State Bowhunters
> Idaho Traditional Bowhunters
> Illinois Bowhunters Society
> Indiana Bowhunters Association
> Iowa Bowhunters Association
> Iowa Traditional Bowhunters Society
> Kansas Bowhunters Association
> Lone Star Bowhunters Association
> (TX)
> Maine Bowhunters Association
> Maine Traditional Archers
> Maryland Bowhunters Society
> Maryland Bowhunters Society
> Massachusetts Bowhunters
> Association
> Michigan Bow Hunters Association
> Michigan Traditional Bowhunters
> Minnesota Bowhunters, Inc.
> Mississippi Bowhunters Association
> Missouri Bow Hunters Association
> Montana Bowhunters Association
> Nebraska Bowhunters Association
> Nebraska Traditional Archers
> New York Bowhunters, Inc.
> North Carolina Bowhunters
> Association
> North Dakota Bowhunters Association
> Northern Bowhunters Association (AB)
> Ohio Bowhunters Association
> Oregon Bow Hunters
> Pennsylvania Association of
> Traditional Hunting Archers
> Pope and Young Club
> Professional Bowhunters Society
> South Carolina Bowhunters
> Association
> South Dakota Bowhunters, Inc.
> Suburban Whitetail Management of
> North Georgia
> Suncoast Archers, Inc. (FL)
> Tallahassee Bowhunters Association
> (FL)
> Traditional Bowhunters of California
> Traditional Bowhunter Magazine
> Traditional Archers of New Jersey
> Traditional Archers of Oregon
> Traditional Bowhunters of Florida
> Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia
> Traditional Bowhunters of Montana
> Traditional Bowhunters of Washington
> United Bowhunters of Connecticut
> United Bowhunters of Illinois
> United Bowhunters of Kentucky
> United Bowhunters of Missouri
> United Bowhunters of New Jersey
> United Bowhunters Pennsylvania
> Virginia Bowhunters Association
> Wakulla Archery Club (FL)
> Washington State Bowhunters
> Washington State Archery Association
> West Virginia Bowhunters Association
> Wisconsin Bowhunters Association*
> 
> Now don't you look silly!



all of which combined represent what-maybe 5% at best?
I bet my archery club has more members than some of those groups-
as to the PBS-that group should be sued for truth in advertising violations:wink:


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## BigBirdVA

Their web page boasts 3 National groups just as I said. The 4th was a randomly picked bow club from their list of cronies. They implied it represents tens of thousands of others in it's state. Reality is it only represents the 900 actual members they have out of almost 30,000 bowhunters in the state. Hardly a majority. Proclaiming one is the voice for all doesn't go far, unless you're in with a bunch that does the same. Representing groups that in reality are small is just another feel good tactic used. It may look good on paper but with a little checking it all falls apart quickly. 

I don't look or feel silly reporting facts. I understand how upsetting facts at times can be for you but you should be starting to get used to it by now.


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> all of which combined represent what-maybe 5% at best?
> I bet my archery club has more members than some of those groups-
> as to the PBS-that group should be sued for truth in advertising violations:wink:


Shouldn't Horton be arrested for impersonating a real bow? :tongue::tongue::wink::wink:


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## BigBirdVA

Marvin said:


> Shouldn't Horton be arrested for impersonating a real bow? :tongue::tongue::wink::wink:


Here we go. Guess the mods warned on personal attacks so we go after an inanimate object. What's next arguing with a sign? Somehow I get the impression you've done that before.


Done on this thread before it turns into another sourceless OCD-A-Thon. I think it's evident there's a sad trend here with him and I'm not going to be a part of perpetuating it. Make a point, get out and let sourceless ramble on in his trademark manner.


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## Marvin

BigBirdVA said:


> Here we go. Guess the mods warned on personal attacks so we go after an inanimate object. What's next arguing with a sign? Somehow I get the impression you've done that before.


Dang...no fun at all.. you ole stick in the mud.


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## BigBirdVA

Marvin said:


> Dang...no fun at all.. you ole stick in the mud.


You know what, I was reading it and thought it was sourceless that posted that when I responded. Don't take it as an insult being confused with 'ol sourceless but it had that shift and slide aspect to it if you know what I mean. Sorry. :darkbeer:


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## Marvin

BigBirdVA said:


> You know what, I was reading it and thought it was sourceless that posted that when I responded. Don't take it as an insult being confused with 'ol sourceless but it had that shift and slide aspect to it if you know what I mean. Sorry. :darkbeer:


No problem! thanks..just tryin to lighten the mood..:wink:


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## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> I don't look or feel silly reporting facts. I understand how upsetting facts at times can be for you but you should be starting to get used to it by now.


Facts?

LMAO.

You left out 95% of the organizations in the coalition and claim to be presenting facts. Too funny.

Hint: Just because YOU claim it to be a fact doesn't make it so.....


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Shouldn't Horton be arrested for impersonating a real bow? :tongue::tongue::wink::wink:


YOu would have to ask the Bednar's that but Ten Point was a spin off of Horton. Once we allowed wheels the concept of a "real bow" sort of became meaningless


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> Facts?
> 
> LMAO.
> 
> You left out 95% of the organizations in the coalition and claim to be presenting facts. Too funny.
> 
> Hint: Just because YOU claim it to be a fact doesn't make it so.....


there are more people hunting with crossbows in Ohio than there are dues paying members of all those groups you trotted out source


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> there are more people hunting with crossbows in Ohio than there are dues paying members of all those groups you trotted out source


Maybe.

Maybe not.

We sure aren't going to take _your _word for it.

How many members in the international organization for crossbowers? 4 or 5? LOL

BTW - did you notice that AFC has the weakest eligibility requirements to make their book?

Figures that their members would need additional advantage ........


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Maybe not.
> 
> We sure aren't going to take _your _word for it.
> 
> How many members in the international organization for crossbowers? 4 or 5? LOL
> 
> BTW - did you notice that AFC has the weakest eligibility requirements to make their book?
> 
> Figures that their members would need additional advantage ........


who cares source? my self esteem is not affected by what someone else hunts with nor do I care about those books. most crossbow hunters are just that-hunters. The fact is, there is no rational reason to oppose crossbow hunting and we all know that. NOte the term RATIONAL


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## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Facts?
> 
> LMAO.
> 
> You left out 95% of the organizations in the coalition and claim to be presenting facts. Too funny.
> 
> Hint: Just because YOU claim it to be a fact doesn't make it so.....


Neither of the 2 bow hunter groups I am familiar with represents a majority of the states bowhunters. So how is that not factual? Granted it's only a couple but I'm satisfied that it's representative of the rest. I don't have to catch them in a bunch of lies to show they have no integrity, two out of two does it for me.


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## x-shocker

thesource said:


> One wonders why a crossbow petition in NY is any business of someone from TN.
> 
> Why don't you let NY sportsmen determine what is best for NY sportsmen?
> 
> Thanks.


PETA and HSUS pull resources and man-power from across the country to lobby at any state(s) they want. We as sportsmen should band together and do the same. It is amazing how the sportsmen argue against one another because their individual egos are stronger then their group dynamic: "I am holier than thou."


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## MNmike

*yes and no*



x-shocker said:


> PETA and HSUS pull resources and man-power from across the country to lobby at any state(s) they want. We as sportsmen should band together and do the same. It is amazing how the sportsmen argue against one another because their individual egos are stronger then their group dynamic: "I am holier than thou."


We have 50 States of commerce for a reason.

That is like saying the Feds should be incharge of conservation and apply it equally in all 50 states.

Do you want socializm?

Conservation and demographics are different where ever you go.


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## Yellowfin

x-shocker said:


> PETA and HSUS pull resources and man-power from across the country to lobby at any state(s) they want. We as sportsmen should band together and do the same. It is amazing how the sportsmen argue against one another because their individual egos are stronger then their group dynamic: "I am holier than thou."


+1. :darkbeer: I seriously doubt any game species has ever been or will ever be under threat of reduced population directly attributable to crossbow hunting. AGAIN I say if it lets more people hunt (and I should add the caveat not to the direct detriment of others by poaching or game theft) because their method of choice is made available to them, then so much the better. Can anyone argue against that? No? Then debating against it is pointless, right?


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## MNmike

*Not sure I understand you*

Are you saying people other than reside in NY should have direct influence on how the state operates it's Fish and Wildlife services?

If so, would that mean they should allow the use of dog running for deer? 
Afterall it is done in other states.

How about Sundays? Or the deer limits? Some states get more than one buck.


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## Yellowfin

Mike Ryan said:


> Are you saying people other than reside in NY should have direct influence on how the state operates it's Fish and Wildlife services?
> 
> If so, would that mean they should allow the use of dog running for deer?
> After all it is done in other states.
> 
> How about Sundays? Or the deer limits? Some states get more than one buck.


Dog running does bother me, since you mention it, because most of my experience with it involves people stealing deer off other people's land, BUT if such is not the case in your area and people will hunt more if they're able to do so then I guess that's good for you. Sunday hunting should never be restricted--taking away a weekend day that working people have off is probably the worst restriction there could possibly be and quite frankly stupid. It does nothing but guarantee that many if not most people will only be able to hunt one day a week, and there aren't enough weeks in the year as it is. I happen to live in one of the best states in terms of having a wide bag limit: one doe and one buck per day for the entire season from November 15th through January 31st. I see the restriction of limits of 5 deer or less per year as completely unnecessary and frankly absurd--no state I know of has THAT many hunters who are so good that they all would wipe out a deer population by being able to take 5-10 deer apiece a year or even 20. "Getting more than one buck" is hardly something that should have to be mentioned as if some kind of distant dream or fairy tale of long gone days. You can talk for yourself but live in reality: the VAST majority of people don't get nearly enough time off, aren't utterly immaculate in their skills or preparedness, shoot everything they see, etc. Vastly too many states have a vice like choke hold on hunting and have miserably low percentages of their population who hunt due to draconian restrictions which I'm pretty convinced are much more the problem than the solution and reek of anti-hunting appeasement. 

How many people can we expect to have on our side and want to speak out if the activity we advocate can barely ever be done in the first place? It's no wonder there is so little heard from us in other places if we're beaten underground or forced to do hopscotch through endless restrictions, regulations, and verbage.


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## Jim C

Mike Ryan said:


> Are you saying people other than reside in NY should have direct influence on how the state operates it's Fish and Wildlife services?
> 
> If so, would that mean they should allow the use of dog running for deer?
> Afterall it is done in other states.
> 
> How about Sundays? Or the deer limits? Some states get more than one buck.


IF a state offers non-resident hunting licenses then non-residents should have a right to voice their opinions


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## thesource

Yellowfin said:


> AGAIN I say if it lets more people hunt (and I should add the caveat not to the direct detriment of others by poaching or game theft) because their method of choice is made available to them, then so much the better. Can anyone argue against that? No? Then debating against it is pointless, right?


I can argue with that.

Your senseless rebuttal leaves the door open for any choice of weapon.

Are we to assume that you support firearms in bowseason as well?


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> IF a state offers non-resident hunting licenses then non-residents should have a right to voice their opinions


I gotta disagree. I should ZERO say in what happens in other states. Its a priviledge ( or opportunity) to hunt there, not a right. No entitlement( welfare). I do think a non-residient landowner should have a say though.


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## Marvin

thesource said:


> I can argue with that.
> 
> Your senseless rebuttal leaves the door open for any choice of weapon.
> 
> Are we to assume that you support firearms in bowseason as well?


I agree. Your right to hunt is not infringed upon. it could become a slippery slope once that happens. Look at New Jersey...we could possibly cut off our nose to spite our face if they are not careful....


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> IF a state offers non-resident hunting licenses then non-residents should have a right to voice their opinions


Bullcrap.

The wildlife of NY belongs to the citizens of NY.

We are nice enough to allow non-residents to share our wildlife (for a price), but that does not entitle them to an opinion about NY and its wildlife.


Residents make the rules.

Non-residents are allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.....if you don't like the rules, don't go there.


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## thesource

Marvin said:


> I do think a non-residient landowner should have a say though.


I agree that is a special case.


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> IF a state offers non-resident hunting licenses then non-residents should have a right to voice their opinions


How about the opinions of the NEW YORK CONSERVATION OFFICERS ASSOCIATION?

_"NYCOA feels that when all the facts are reviewed, the evidence to not support any legalization of the crossbow in New York State at this time is overwhelming, and probably will not be supportable any time in the near future, if ever. "_

If ever.....LOL.:darkbeer:

If our Conservation Officers believe crossbows are a bad idea in NY, what gives loudmouths from other states the right to demand them?


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## baldntatted

loud mouths from other states huh . what have you done for your state or what do you do. from all i know all ya do is sit on the PC and bash other people for trying to help. and i own land in NY state thank you very much so if i feel the right to help out there i will do so. And all i have seen from your posts negativity. It seems to me your an anti hunter because real sportsmen would like to see hunters helping fellow hunters. And are you disabled? if not this dose not concern you anyways. god for bid disabled hunters that can't use adaptive equipment be allowed to hunt. I know you will say something negative about what ever is posted so i will stop here.


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## x-shocker

Mike Ryan said:


> We have 50 States of commerce for a reason.
> 
> That is like saying the Feds should be incharge of conservation and apply it equally in all 50 states.
> 
> Do you want socializm?
> 
> Conservation and demographics are different where ever you go.


Bad ananolgy.

PETA and HSUS is the same in all states. The sooner we band together, the better we will be. Of course, there will always be the "holier than thou" id-10-t's.


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## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Bullcrap.
> 
> The wildlife of NY belongs to the citizens of NY.
> 
> We are nice enough to allow non-residents to share our wildlife (for a price), but that does not entitle them to an opinion about NY and its wildlife.
> 
> 
> Residents make the rules.
> 
> Non-residents are allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.....if you don't like the rules, don't go there.


It belongs to the state of NY. The state makes the rules. 

A vocal few have been ruling this fiasco for years. It's time to yank the rug out from under 'em. I understand you being upset at that people with proof xbows do not do any of the things you and the Kool-Aid bow club have been spouting for years. But it's happening and it isn't going to stop. You're on an emotionally based argument and they never win in the end.


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## thesource

x-shocker said:


> Bad ananolgy.
> 
> PETA and HSUS is the same in all states. The sooner we band together, the better we will be. Of course, there will always be the "holier than thou" id-10-t's.


Your knife cuts both ways....

Why not join those who oppose crossbows in bowseason. To do otherwise is divisive. You are being "holier than thou".........


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## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> It belongs to the state of NY. The state makes the rules.
> 
> A vocal few have been ruling this fiasco for years. It's time to yank the rug out from under 'em. I understand you being upset at that people with proof xbows do not do any of the things you and the Kool-Aid bow club have been spouting for years. But it's happening and it isn't going to stop. You're on an emotionally based argument and they never win in the end.


You said you were done 20 posts ago.....LOL.

Just more pro crossbow misinformation.

I, personally, have not said xbows will ruin deer herds, etc.

I have said it will hurt bowhunting. One look at the bowhunter numbers, dropping like an anchor since xbow has been legalized, in your home state to see that I am right.

That is "proof"...not "emotionally based."

You, yourself, are one who has abandoned a bow in favor of the advantaged xbow. You, yourself, are a living, breathing example of the problem.

You, BTW, have absolutely NO business deciding what is best for NY sportsmen. That is OUR decision.....and the vast majority of NY sportsmen do NOT want crossbows.


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## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> You said you were done 20 posts ago.....LOL.
> 
> Just more pro crossbow misinformation.
> 
> I, personally, have not said xbows will ruin deer herds, etc.
> 
> I have said it will hurt bowhunting. One look at the bowhunter numbers, dropping like an anchor since xbow has been legalized, in your home state to see that I am right.
> 
> That is "proof"...not "emotionally based."
> 
> You, yourself, are one who has abandoned a bow in favor of the advantaged xbow. You, yourself, are a living, breathing example of the problem.
> 
> You, BTW, have absolutely NO business deciding what is best for NY sportsmen. That is OUR decision.....and the vast majority of NY sportsmen do NOT want crossbows.


Yawn.......

VA. numbers........facts here - again. I've done this for you about 3 times now. I suggest you try some of that Ginkgo supplement. I'll check and see if they make that in a suppository for you if you like. 

Compound and stick bow sales dropped from 52K to 48K last year but xbow sales went up from 14K to 20K. I see that as a net gain of bowhunters as 2K. Uh........ more people hunting during bow season no matter what string & arrow weapon = a BIGGER voice. Everyone wins. Deer herd needs to be thinned, state needs the $$$ from additional license sales. Down side listening to a few whiny Kool-aid drinkers that probably would be crying about something ( my deer - my season ) no matter what.


Links- (gasp) again for you.......

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2007/022007/02152007/259896/index_html?page=1

http://www.dgif.state.va.us/wildlife/deer/harvestsummary.asp

While you've got your calculator out the success rate of xbow vs compound was less than 1%. Yawn, much ado over nothing. Facts baby, facts. We got 'em, you don't. Maybe one day there will be enough hunting in BOW SEASON we can get the 2 weeks they dumped muzzle loaders in with bow back to bow only.


Hows that survey of hunters coming along? What you don't have one yet for NY? Well you can use one of the other states surveys, they're all about the same. Let me give you the short version- majority doesn't care if xbows are allowed.


----------



## JavaMan

*Ocd*

I see Sourceless is still on about xbows..

ho hum..

I never knew participants in a State recreational season got to determine how other participants should participate

I wonder how xbows will hurt bowhunting. You bowhunt with an xbow.

Sourceless arguments are exactly the same as the old anti compound arguments. I ado about nothing.


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> Hows that survey of hunters coming along? What you don't have one yet for NY? Well you can use one of the other states surveys, they're all about the same. Let me spell it out for you - majority doesn't care if xbows are allowed.


2 surveys in NY showed that the majority of NY sportsmen are OPPOSED to crossbows.

Of course....YOU know that. I have posted links a dozen times. I bet you could find them if you tried.

Of course, you won't. It does not suit your agenda.

You will PUSH them anyway, even though it has been proven over and over that NY sportsmen do not want crossbows.



Sad.


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> Compound and stick bow sales dropped from 52K to 48K last year but xbow sales went up from 14K to 20K.


VA has lost 15,000 bowhunters in the 2 years that they have allowed xbows.


You do the math.


----------



## JavaMan

thesource said:


> VA has lost 15,000 bowhunters in the 2 years that they have allowed xbows.
> 
> 
> You do the math.


yes, I am sure xbows deter others from hunting with conventional bows

you are so funny.


----------



## thesource

and you are so DougK.

Amazing that they allow it.........


----------



## Big Country

OK, this looks like the bowhunting forum in here......

There were several PM`s sent to several members over the last couple of days regarding indirect and direct name calling and attacking members.

It seems that a few of the recipients of those PM`s have not learned anything yet......

So here we go........NO MORE NAME CALLING.

JavaMan.....the next time you use the word "sourceless" on here, will be the last time.

Carry on.........


----------



## JavaMan

I am amazed you continue to post on this..it's not like you have any credibility

I don't believe most bowhunters give a rat's patoot how someone else bowhunts.

I will tell you-as a part time retailer in archery equipment-you have much to learn on the dynamic of bowhunters.

just the other day, a guy came into the shop and asked me to help set his bow up for hunting season. Guess what he shot?

a 30 year old Bear Whitetail Hunter! He even got alluminum arrows for the thing...and insisted I leave them full length.

I attended this last weekend an archery shoot-shot my new PSE XForce-and one of the guys in the group was carrying a 20 year old Martin bow-shot XX75 ORANGE arrows-missed so much-yet he plans to bowhunt this season-and there is no law against that. 

why don't you just admit what everyone knows? You're a non bowhunting troll. You've got some issues.

I never see you post on any issue, but to tell others how they should, or should not participate in archery season. Why, I would expect an accomplished traditional bowhunter such as yourself would be posting all the time-sharing your vast knowledge-but we never see that.

just a one man pathetic jihad-on this and other forums-PMing other members-about crossbows.

don't you think you look a little immature?

On business I routinely go into ONT-they've had xbows in archery season for over 30 years-and there are no problems-infact at the club I know members shoot both compound and crossbow. Several alternate between the different equipment in hunting season.

no problems..

a friend of mine-a dedicated traditonal longbow archer-and unlike others he can really shoot the bow-bought a xbow as well. Tells me it just adds another dimension to his bowhunting.

in addition to his 20+ stickbows he now has a xbow and 2 compounds. And for his longbows, he shoots wooden arrows.


----------



## JavaMan

Big Country said:


> OK, this looks like the bowhunting forum in here......
> 
> There were several PM`s sent to several members over the last couple of days regarding indirect and direct name calling and attacking members.
> 
> It seems that a few of the recipients of those PM`s have not learned anything yet......
> 
> So here we go........NO MORE NAME CALLING.
> 
> JavaMan.....the next time you use the word "sourceless" on here, will be the last time.
> 
> Carry on.........



I actually got that name from BigBirdVA..


----------



## thesource

LOL .... no loyalty among thieves, as they say.

Pretty quick to toss your compadre under the bus.

Very funny.


----------



## Big Country

JavaMan said:


> I actually got that name from BigBirdVA..


I know that the name has been around for a while. Might have even used it myself before they made me a moderator.:wink:

But, the fact remains that it is a word designed to insult a fellow AT member.

That said.....the word is off limits.

And please, don`t make it so someone has to actually list all of the off limits words.:zip:

If you are not sure whether to direct a word towards another member.....you probably should NOT!


----------



## JavaMan

Big Country said:


> I know that the name has been around for a while. Might have even used it myself before they made me a moderator.:wink:
> 
> But, the fact remains that it is a word designed to insult a fellow AT member.
> 
> That said.....the word is off limits.
> 
> And please, don`t make it so someone has to actually list all of the off limits words.:zip:
> 
> If you are not sure whether to direct a word towards another member.....you probably should NOT!



ok...ok...I won't.

now does that go both ways? I know theSource has used terms to deride other contributors.


----------



## thesource

JavaMan said:


> ok...ok...I won't.
> 
> now does that go both ways? I know theSource has used terms to deride other contributors.


LOL .... like calling them a "DougK?"


OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!!!

I sure would not like to be called one of those, either. LMAO


----------



## Big Country

JavaMan said:


> ok...ok...I won't.
> 
> now does that go both ways? I know theSource has used terms to deride other contributors.



thesource is a big boy, and he knows the rules.

Personally, I think his thoughts on crossbows are wrong as can be.......but he USUALLY does not resort to name calling unless you guys get his blood pressure way up there!:tongue:

I bet if you don`t call him names, he will not call you names.


----------



## JavaMan

well, THESOURCE, I know archery and bowhunting..and you do not..

and I work, and make a good income and am not sitting on all sites, posting about what I do not know about, and making a fool of myself.

THESOURCE-it's like this:

-you won't provoke me

-I think everyone knows what you are about and has you figured out.

-you lack credibility..why do you hide behind a facade?

people-smart people anyway-just don't take you seriously.

as a person who has been involved in archery/bowhunting longer than you've probably lived-and enjoyed much more success-you come across funny.:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

I hate to break up a good party, but .....

The real issue here is whether or not state's sportsmen should be able to determine their own fate.....

I say yea....what say you?


----------



## thesource

JavaMan said:


> well, THESOURCE, I know archery and bowhunting..and you do not..
> 
> and I work, and make a good income and am not sitting on all sites, posting about what I do not know about, and making a fool of myself.
> 
> THESOURCE-it's like this:
> 
> -you won't provoke me
> 
> -I think everyone knows what you are about and has you figured out.
> 
> -you lack credibility..why do you hide behind a facade?
> 
> people-smart people anyway-just don't take you seriously.
> 
> as a person who has been involved in archery/bowhunting longer than you've probably lived-and enjoyed much more success-you come across funny.:darkbeer:



Yawn.

You have no idea how long I have been involved in bowhunting. You have no idea how much bowhunting "success" I have acheived.

You have no idea if your "record" is equivalent to mine...or not.

What you have is ONE opinion. Same as me.

Don't spend it all in one place.....LOL.:darkbeer:


----------



## Big Country

thesource said:


> I hate to break up a good party, but .....
> 
> The real issue here is whether or not state's sportsmen should be able to determine their own fate.....
> 
> I say yea....what say you?


Up to a point......YES

However, when it comes to game management, selfishness will win out time and time again. And I do not mean that in regards to crossbows, compound bows, traditional bows........I mean in regards to harvest numbers, season timeframes and durations, etc.

That is why we have biologists on staff in every state.


----------



## thesource

Big Country said:


> That is why we have biologists on staff in every state.


Biologists can not regulate TRADITION.

If it is harvest numbers that you need, we all understand that answer already.

Guns and tags.

To suggest otherwise is simply to be naive or wrong.

Bowseason is not about harvest, and never has been, It is about HOW...not how many.


----------



## JavaMan

thesource said:


> Yawn.
> 
> You have no idea how long I have been involved in bowhunting. You have no idea how much bowhunting "success" I have acheived.
> 
> You have no idea if your "record" is equivalent to mine...or not.
> 
> What you have is ONE opinion. Same as me.
> 
> Don't spend it all in one place.....LOL.:darkbeer:


I was wondering when you would respond. I have an OCD predictor by my side.

Sure I do-you know about nothing. You just make things up..I would rate your archery knowledge on par and probably less than that guy with the Bear Whitetail Hunter.

you know how I know?

even if I disallow or ignore your earlier comment about luminocks and tracking deer-you try to come across as an extremely dedicated bowhunter-not just an average bowhunter-but one above the rest 

I assume you've never taken a course on Conflict Resolution-but that's a common debate tactic for someone who really doesn't know what they talk about..

of course, the problem when you create a facade is you have to back the facade-the problem with lying is you always have to remember your lies-and stay consistant with them-other wise like the house of cards will fall flat.

your house of cards gave way on you long ago..:darkbeer:

I mentioned I work part time at an archery shop..it was interesting..I had a debate with a guy about compounds..and he also knew nothing about archery/compounds. He claimed compounds were too EASY to shoot and bowhunt with..

kinda like you and crossbows:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

JavaMan said:


> I was wondering when you would respond. I have an OCD predictor by my side.
> 
> Sure I do-you know about nothing. You just make things up..I would rate your archery knowledge on par and probably less than that guy with the Bear Whitetail Hunter.
> 
> you know how I know?
> 
> even if I disallow or ignore your earlier comment about luminocks and tracking deer-you try to come across as an extremely dedicated bowhunter-not just an average bowhunter-but one above the rest
> 
> I assume you've never taken a course on Conflict Resolution-but that's a common debate tactic for someone who really doesn't know what they talk about..
> 
> of course, the problem when you create a facade is you have to back the facade-the problem with lying is you always have to remember your lies-and stay consistant with them-other wise like the house of cards will fall flat.
> 
> your house of cards gave way on you long ago..:darkbeer:
> 
> I mentioned I work part time at an archery shop..it was interesting..I had a debate with a guy about compounds..and he also knew nothing about archery/compounds. He claimed compounds were too EASY to shoot and bowhunt with..
> 
> kinda like you and crossbows:darkbeer:



What the heck are you rambling about now?

Have you been drinking (again)?:darkbeer:

You know nothing about me....or my hunting knowledge. 

For all you know, I would whup you in the woods as bad as I whup you on these boards.

Some people need to know when to quit........

BTW. What does any of your meandering prose have to do with the topic of crossbows in NY?


----------



## JavaMan

thesource said:


> What the heck are you rambling about now?
> 
> Have you been drinking (again)?:darkbeer:
> 
> You know nothing about me....or my hunting knowledge.
> 
> For all you know, I would whup you in the woods as bad as I whup you on these boards.
> 
> Some people need to know when to quit........
> 
> BTW. What does any of your meandering prose have to do with the topic of crossbows in NY?



oh..you think you've "whupped me" on the boards? LOL

that victory lies in your mind alone..

you probably would out bowhunt me-my son is also better than me-on your common bowhunting field in front of the PC..

see, that's about all the bowhunting I believe you've ever really done.

it's very hard to take you as an adult seriously...grown men just are not sitting in front of a PC..sending out PMs..on different sites..argueing about how someone else chooses to bowhunt..

are you really an adult? I know you like to hide behind a facade.. 

here's some more facts for you:

conventional archery equipment as we see it today will evolve-it will be different and more refined than today. Probably faster and god forbid easier to shoot..

what you going do?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Bullcrap.
> 
> The wildlife of NY belongs to the citizens of NY.
> 
> We are nice enough to allow non-residents to share our wildlife (for a price), but that does not entitle them to an opinion about NY and its wildlife.
> 
> 
> Residents make the rules.
> 
> Non-residents are allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.....if you don't like the rules, don't go there.



but unfortunately a small band of big mouthed and selfish whiners complain about others hunting. If all the residents of NYS had the true information and knew what motivates the selfish, I doubt the selfish would be allowed to hunt anymore


----------



## thesource

Oh, heck, you know me....

I will probably continue to follow the guidance of P&Y, the rules of Fair Chase, and (especially) the _philosophy _of Fair Chase.

I will continue to avoid "unfair and improper advantage", and I will speak up when I think these things are being violated.

What will you do? Continue to seek and accept every advantage that comes down the road that will allow you to actually kill a deer?

Yea....I can see where you are so much more skilled than I....LMAO.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> but unfortunately a small band of big mouthed and selfish whiners complain about others hunting. If all the residents of NYS had the true information and knew what motivates the selfish, I doubt the selfish would be allowed to hunt anymore


Funny, I see the exact opposite.

I see "a small band of big mouthed and selfish whiners complain " about not being able to use a crossbow.

And you are right.......those " selfish" few are not "allowed to hunt."

Perhaps if they learned to get along, stopped being so *devisive*, lobbied for their own season instead of stealing an existing one, they might gain some support from the real bowhunters.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> How about the opinions of the NEW YORK CONSERVATION OFFICERS ASSOCIATION?
> 
> _"NYCOA feels that when all the facts are reviewed, the evidence to not support any legalization of the crossbow in New York State at this time is overwhelming, and probably will not be supportable any time in the near future, if ever. "_
> 
> If ever.....LOL.:darkbeer:
> 
> If our Conservation Officers believe crossbows are a bad idea in NY, what gives loudmouths from other states the right to demand them?


making a statement without facts means nothing to me. I would shred any of those clowns in a debate on the issue. I love making bureaucrats argue against personal freedom. I doubt any of them have the ability to argue based on facts.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Funny, I see the exact opposite.
> 
> I see "a small band of big mouthed and selfish whiners complain " about not being able to use a crossbow.
> 
> And you are right.......those " selfish" few are not "allowed to hunt."
> 
> Perhaps if they learned to get along, stopped being so *devisive*, lobbied for their own season instead of stealing an existing one, they might gain some support from the real bowhunters.


I remember white supremacists saying blacks should stop being uppity and divisive too.

same mindset, different laws.

You need to tell me how letting someone hunt with yet another bow steals anything from you other than your self esteem


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> VA has lost 15,000 bowhunters in the 2 years that they have allowed xbows.
> 
> 
> You do the math.


Explain that one would you? Figures to back it up too.

And the survey links while you're at it.


----------



## thesource

JimC -

LOL.

You mean "facts" like BigBird's?

The kind that you crossbow guys just make up? I bet you would do well.


They are my state's Conservation Officers. They say crossbows are unsupportable.

Who the heck are YOU to argue with them? 


LOL.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I remember white supremacists saying blacks should stop being uppity and divisive too.
> 
> same mindset, different laws.
> 
> You need to tell me how letting someone hunt with yet another bow steals anything from you other than your self esteem


Ooooo....The RACE card.

Nice touch.

Because the struggles of an entire group of people based solely on the color of their skin has something to do with those who cannot be bothered to learn to use a real bow....

Non-starter. Activist hyperbole, and NOTHING more.


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> Explain that one would you? Figures to back it up too.
> 
> And the survey links while you're at it.


Do your own research.

I am busy showing DougK doesn't have the hunting skills he thinks he has and that JimC doesn't have the debating skills he thinks he has.

I don't have time to prove you don't have the "facts" you pretend to have. 

Maybe tomorrow I can pencil you in ......


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Do your own research.
> 
> I am busy showing DougK doesn't have the hunting skills he thinks he has and that JimC doesn't have the debating skills he thinks he has.
> 
> I don't have time to prove you don't have the "facts" you pretend to have.
> 
> Maybe tomorrow I can pencil you in ......


You have never won a debate because posting based on your self esteem issues is not convincing. I would be happy to compare education with any of those bought and paid for NYC officers who answer to the whiners


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Ooooo....The RACE card.
> 
> Nice touch.
> 
> Because the struggles of an entire group of people based solely on the color of their skin has something to do with those who cannot be bothered to learn to use a real bow....
> 
> Non-starter. Activist hyperbole, and NOTHING more.



If the bigotry fits

As I recall you called xbow trophies "cheap"

You called xbow archers "lazy"

sounds like the same stuff the Klan used to say about a whole group of people


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> You have never won a debate because posting based on your self esteem issues is not convincing. I would be happy to compare education with any of those bought and paid for NYC officers who answer to the whiners


Educational background does not matter, here.

And before you proclaim corruption, we should discuss Horton and ODNR....lol


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Do your own research.
> 
> I am busy showing DougK doesn't have the hunting skills he thinks he has and that JimC doesn't have the debating skills he thinks he has.
> 
> I don't have time to prove you don't have the "facts" you pretend to have.
> 
> Maybe tomorrow I can pencil you in ......


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have and then you say it's not so. When asked to show proof another lame excuse. Well some things never change I guess. 

BTW I've got an email in to my info source in VDGIF. I think he'll deliver all the info I'll need. He has before. 


Sure you'll be here tomorrow? LOL


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> If the bigotry fits
> 
> As I recall you called xbow trophies "cheap"
> 
> You called xbow archers "lazy"
> 
> sounds like the same stuff the Klan used to say about a whole group of people


please.

Does the term "melodramatic" mean anything to you?


----------



## thesource

JavaMan said:


> I was wondering when you would respond. I have an OCD predictor by my side.


Now where did Dougie go?

The first time I lower myself to converse with him in months, and he runs away.

Figures.


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> Sure you'll be here tomorrow? LOL


Why are YOU so certain you will?

I have some serious issues with your "special" treatment.

Must be a crossbow thing. Funny how y'all need that added advantage to remain competitive.....


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Why are YOU so certain you will?
> 
> I have some serious issues with your "special" treatment.
> 
> Must be a crossbow thing. Funny how y'all need that added advantage to remain competitive.....


No actually if you call or email them and talk like you've got some sense they go out of their way to give you the info. I've never had a blow-off from them. 110% every time. Must be a southern thing, sorry 'bout that.

I asked for data before on deer totals and he sent me 16 .doc files with detailed numbers. The guy delivers.


----------



## Wyvern Creations

In all the heated/emotional exchanges on this thread (and all of the other ones just like it that eventualy get dumped into the crossbow section) the "big picture" gets overshadowed by the issue of the crossbows "legitimacy" in bow season. That asside, the object of every person who claims to be a "sportsman" should be to encourage growth and interest in the sport and offer EVEYONE who may be interested the oportunity and support to get out into the woods. ANY legislation that limits participation in the sport should be in question.

Am I for guns in archery season...no. but they dont seem to mind me being out with my bow in their season. 

The argument for "tradition" has no substance....Websters defines "traditional" as:

1. Consisting of or derived from tradition; "traditional history"; "traditional morality".
2. Pertaining to time-honored orthodox doctrines; "the simple security of traditional assumptions has vanished".

Well, going by that definition, my 700 year old design crossbow is "traditional". Can I now use it during bow season??? Is any bow made with fiberglass and shooting carbon arrows not "traditional"??? Not much of an argument there...

I just went last weekend to the banquet for the hunter ed instructors in New Hampshire. Hate to tell you all, but the vast majority of instructors were not young people. Not many "new" faces in the crowd either. We are not recruting anywhere near enough new people into this sport. 
THIS is the issue. If it takes letting them use a crossbow to get new people and people with special needs into the woods then let them use one. ANY "sportsman"or "hunting organization" or "club" that stands in the way of furthering our sport should not only be ashamed, but should stay home and join PETA because you are as much to blame for the falling number of licenses sold and the increasing power of the anti's as any anti hunting group.

Wyvern


----------



## baldntatted

well said


----------



## x-shocker

thesource said:


> Your knife cuts both ways....
> 
> Why not join those who oppose crossbows in bowseason. To do otherwise is divisive. You are being "holier than thou".........


If I oppose crossbows then I will have to oppose compounds as well. To do otherwise would be divisive. Any joker can pick up a well tuned and fit compound bow and can shoot just as good as a seasoned bow hunter. Further, with modern accessories, a compound shoots as well as a crossbow.

I fully supports the legalizations of crossbows during archery season.:cocktail:


----------



## Marvin

Wyvern Crossbow said:


> If it takes letting them use a crossbow to get new people and people with special needs into the woods then let them use one. ANY "sportsman"or "hunting organization" or "club" that stands in the way of furthering our sport should not only be ashamed, but should stay home and join PETA because you are as much to blame for the falling number of licenses sold and the increasing power of the anti's as any anti hunting group.
> 
> Wyvern


Then lets just let them have guns in bowseason. whats the point. falling hunter numbers are not going to be solved by the crossbow in bowseason. only a fool would think its a quick or long term fix. we have 30 year role models to look at for trends. None of them are pointing in a positive direction. And I just looked outside and the sky ain't falling. It's partly cloudy but the suns peaking out. :tongue: Thanks for throwing your fellow sportsmen under the bus. I see now why we will never see and end to this. its your way or no way. 

Edit dang i see source got a time out....


----------



## cynic

Daniel Boone said:


> I shoot out to 40yrds accurately.
> One pin Set on 25yrds
> Under 20yrds Aim bottom of chest.
> 20-30yrds Aim just a tad bit below dead level of the body
> 40yrds Aim one inch above the back.
> *Amazingly accurate. I have shot tournaments with one pin. Very accurate system. JUst like shooting a gun scope.*


I pulled this from another thread, DB and I don't see I 2 I on everything but with his experience as a bowhunter and 3d achievements I truly believe this statement.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I pulled this from another thread, DB and I don't see I 2 I on everything but with his experience as a bowhunter and 3d achievements I truly believe this statement.


Taking things out of context again cynic....? Bad form


----------



## cynic

Hold a little high, hold a little low...No different than using a rifle scope.. Peep- pin.. Scope -dot or crosshairs.. you see a difference, I don't.. It all comes down to how you look thru the sight?


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Hold a little high, hold a little low...No different than using a rifle scope.. Peep- pin.. Scope -dot or crosshairs.. you see a difference, I don't.. It all comes down to how you look thru the sight?


----------



## BigBirdVA

A little archery evolution for you. Notice all these guys have one thing in common. They're all walking the same direction, with the flow. Notice the big difference in size between the first 2 and a small difference in the last 2. Should be starting to click by now for you.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


>



I guess you see it now also? Holding 6-7 lbs of draw weight on legal hunting bows takes a lot out of a bowhunter?. I know most hunt with 60-70lb bows. Who made that decision, you, DNR or any other entity?.. Thats right it is a personal decision to do what you want, to gain an added advantage over the game and others that can't, but is not necessary to be compliant with the game laws


----------



## Marvin

BigBirdVA said:


> A little archery evolution for you. Notice all these guys have one thing in common. They're all walking the same direction, with the flow. Notice the big difference in size between the first 2 and a small difference in the last 2. Should be starting to click by now for you.


That is truly funny right there! nice find:tongue: it does look as if the last one is getting dumber though....you shouldn't carry a cocked crossbow around like that:tongue::tongue::wink: Safety first:zip:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Marvin said:


> That is truly funny right there! nice find:tongue: it does look as if the last one is getting dumber though....you shouldn't carry a cocked crossbow around like that:tongue::tongue::wink: Safety first:zip:


Not a find, 10 minutes in Photoshop. See xbows guys can read and write.


He's got it loaded because you never know what those crazy compound guys might do.


----------



## Marvin

BigBirdVA said:


> Not a find, 10 minutes in Photoshop. See xbows guys can read and write.
> 
> 
> He's got it loaded because you never know what those crazy compound guys might do.


:icon_1_lol:


----------



## x-shocker

Guns are allowed in some part of the MN archery season. We call it "early season" and it opens for one weekend in the middle of October.

The more hunters out in the woods, the better for us hunters in the long run. Crossbows have pros and cons, just like compounds and stick-bows. I for one would choose to use a compound over a Xbow anyday. However, if someone should choose to use a Xbow for hunting, that is his/her choice and others should just mind their own business.


----------



## GCOD

x-shocker said:


> Guns are allowed in some part of the MN archery season. We call it "early season" and it opens for one weekend in the middle of October.
> 
> The more hunters out in the woods, the better for us hunters in the long run. Crossbows have pros and cons, just like compounds and stick-bows. I for one would choose to use a compound over a Xbow anyday. However, if someone should choose to use a Xbow for hunting, that is his/her choice and others should just mind their own business.


exactly, and as bow hunters we should be promoting our sport and trying to get people that have never experienced archery to participate in our sport regaurdless of the type of archery equipment they use ,reguardless of what some people think a xbow is still a bow, key word BOW


----------



## ban_t

thesource said:


> One wonders why a crossbow petition in NY is any business of someone from TN.
> 
> Why don't you let NY sportsmen determine what is best for NY sportsmen?
> 
> Thanks.


http://www.niagara-gazette.com/outdoors/gnnoutdoors_story_139224033.html

Source it could have something to do with suporting our Troops, Helping any and all handicapped persons. Or could it be just being a good Sportsman, Hunter or Person revise unjust laws? 

You changed the suject from what it really was. That being help revise the what diabled is. A lose of a arm and leg is diabled. So what is the beef too change that So more diabled hunters can use a Crossbow too hunt. I did not see where is said let everyone use a crossbow. 

Even though I do not think you will agree with that. Although that is really what the petition is all about. Not just letting everyone use a crossbow just too revise diabled difinitions. 

I hope you read the Article from the link that I posted and the comments from the many who have signed the petition. That way maybe you will be better informed


----------



## BigBirdVA

ban_t said:


> http://www.niagara-gazette.com/outdoors/gnnoutdoors_story_139224033.html
> 
> Source it could have something to do with suporting our Troops, Helping any and all handicapped persons. Or could it be just being a good Sportsman, Hunter or Person revise unjust laws?
> 
> You changed the suject from what it really was. That being help revise the what diabled is. A lose of a arm and leg is diabled. So what is the beef too change that So more diabled hunters can use a Crossbow too hunt. I did not see where is said let everyone use a crossbow.
> 
> Even though I do not think you will agree with that. Although that is really what the petition is all about. Not just letting everyone use a crossbow just too revise diabled difinitions.
> 
> I hope you read the Article from the link that I posted and the comments from the many who have signed the petition. That way maybe you will be better informed


Nice story on the link. Might have a chance this time to see a long overdue change in the law there. That has got to be the most anal hunting reg I've ever heard of.

You don't have to worry about source changing the subject anytime soon. He used up his last shout out and got shown out.


----------



## BigBirdVA

I got the totals for archery in VA. for the past few years from the guy in Richmond. 2006 is not on there but it's total archery 48,770 and xbow 20,081.


----------



## ban_t

Well BB_VA It is a shame that source cannot reply, His lose.
The Stats you posted for Va look good for all those who what too use whatever type of Archery tool the desire. I wonder how many are Handicapped and how many are not, That would interest me. It may give some insight too how many new hunters joined the ranks. Since they do not have too jump thru hoops to get a handicap permits too get hunt with a bow. 

It also seems that things became a little quiet her now since the debate may go back too changing NY Yorks laws too widen the definition of Handicapp/ disabled hunters. My wife is from NY and we visit there often. I hunt Upstate NY in the Catskills. With my Father-in-Law and many of my wifes Family. They even complain about all the B.S. LAWS


----------



## JohnR

*The Feds. need to set up a border patrol around New York State*



thesource said:


> One wonders why a crossbow petition in NY is any business of someone from TN.
> 
> Why don't you let NY sportsmen determine what is best for NY sportsmen?
> 
> Thanks.


This same attitude forced me to move out of NY...where I was born and raised. I joined the Navy and was a Corpsman..went to Vietnam ('68) with the Marines. Went back to Upstate New York, 4 years later, to continue my life BUT I was not welcome anymore....because of my hitch in the military.:sad:

Seems the attitude continues, today.


----------



## baldntatted

BB_VT and Ban_T 

thats funny you posted that article. We at disabled sportsmen of america are hosting mark and his dad on a hog hunt in texas in october and it will be filmed by keith warren outdoors so yall look for it we are excited to be doing this for this marine who defended are country this is the least we can do.


----------



## ban_t

I cannot take credit for posting the article just for reading the petition and following the links. It was how this was started and then hijacked.
I only posted it to get the attention on what this thread was supposed to be about. Although I know you know that since you started the first post to get our attention to help others not as forunate as us Baldntatted. 

It is great that you guys are doing that for them and suporting Our Soliders and All Disabled Americans. Hats off too you All :wav:
Have a Great Indpendence Day and Remember Who Keeps us Free 
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS FOR IF NOT THEN WE HAVE NO INDPENDENCE


----------



## BigBirdVA

baldntatted said:


> BB_VT and Ban_T
> 
> thats funny you posted that article. We at disabled sportsmen of america are hosting mark and his dad on a hog hunt in texas in october and it will be filmed by keith warren outdoors so yall look for it we are excited to be doing this for this marine who defended are country this is the least we can do.


:thumbs_up:thumbs_up Good job on providing a hunt for him. Shame he can't hunt in his own state. Maybe that will change soon.


----------



## GCOD

baldntatted said:


> BB_VT and Ban_T
> 
> thats funny you posted that article. We at disabled sportsmen of america are hosting mark and his dad on a hog hunt in texas in october and it will be filmed by keith warren outdoors so yall look for it we are excited to be doing this for this marine who defended are country this is the least we can do.


Good Job :wink::wink:


----------



## boarhunr1972

Does anyone know who thesource is? I had a conversation with a fella that sounds just like him. If some one can tell me who he is I will elaborate on the conversation. I think you all would get a huge kick out of it


----------



## BigBirdVA

boarhunr1972 said:


> Does anyone know who thesource is? I had a conversation with a fella that sounds just like him. If some one can tell me who he is I will elaborate on the conversation. I think you all would get a huge kick out of it


No one knows and it looks like no one will. Never said anything concrete enough to pin him down. If the guy you were talking to was in a white jacket with very long sleeves it might have been him.:wink:


----------



## aceoky

*News?*

ANY news about this? 

It's a shame that anyone could risk their life and/or lose limbs FOR this country's freedom, then be denied the choice of weapon by anyone IMO


----------



## thesource

Allow me to clarify my position.

I have no problem with xbows for disabled vets (or disabled anyone, for that matter.) And being a vet, my position should not be surprising.

I do, however, take issue with non residents trying to force their beliefs upon NY'ers. We can handle the issue ourselves, thank you very much. MYOB, in other words.


BTW ...... The pronouncements of my death appear to be somewhat premature.....LOL.


----------



## spangler

thesource said:


> I do, however, take issue with non residents trying to force their beliefs upon NY'ers. We can handle the issue ourselves, thank you very much. MYOB, in other words.


Chill out. NY is still part of the US isn't it? 

Why not just let people express their opinions and present your case as best you can. Then let the people who were elected by NY residents and appointed/hired by people elected by NY residents make the determination. 

Don't sit there and tell someone else their opinion doesn't matter and they shouldn't be expressing it.


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Allow me to clarify my position.
> 
> I have no problem with xbows for disabled vets (or disabled anyone, for that matter.) And being a vet, my position should not be surprising.
> 
> I do, however, take issue with non residents trying to force their beliefs upon NY'ers. We can handle the issue ourselves, thank you very much. MYOB, in other words.
> 
> 
> BTW ...... The pronouncements of my death appear to be somewhat premature.....LOL.


Wasn't death - banned for 30 days for not behaving. Pretty bad when people can't control themselves or their actions. Usually an indicator of other things wrong within. MYOB is not going to happen anytime soon.


----------



## aceoky

Maybe the DAV should file a discrimination lawsuit against the great state of NY???

Seems a Disabled Vet should be able to hunt his own way, he put his self on the line for US and the U.S. after all!:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

> I do, however, take issue with non residents trying to force their beliefs upon NY'ers


That is very confusing since YOU did exactly that in KY, Tennessee and Virginia(and likely more that I am not aware of) on those States forums and boards......hmm it's "fine and dandy" for YOU to do something, but when it bites YOU in the _____ it's a"different story" I see......


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

aceoky said:


> That is very confusing since YOU did exactly that in KY, Tennessee and Virginia(and likely more that I am not aware of) on those States forums and boards......hmm it's "fine and dandy" for YOU to do something, but when it bites YOU in the _____ it's a"different story" I see......


I find it confusing that thesource claims to be represented by the NABC whose mission is to influence legislation, at the state level, on a nationwide basis. Yet he doesn't want 'anyone' poking their noses into the business of New York.


----------



## aceoky

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I find it confusing that thesource claims to be represented by the NABC whose mission is to influence legislation, at the state level, on a nationwide basis. Yet he doesn't want 'anyone' poking their noses into the business of New York.


Agreed!


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> ITs a bunch of selfish whiners who want to keep that guy big bird mentioned from hunting and "stealing" their deer.


Still using those, eh?  Talk about lame. I guess if it makes you feel better about your unsupportable position, more power to you. :laugh:


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Still using those, eh?  Talk about lame. I guess if it makes you feel better about your unsupportable position, more power to you. :laugh:


Why don't you tell us what motivates them other than selfishness. I think that has been settled and is no longer subject to debate. In fact most of the people on your side have already admitted the fact


telling a disabled vet he cannot hunt with the most appropriate form of archerytackle is unsupportable

furthermore no one has ever answered my (big bird etc) question of how people using compound bows or other stuff that did not exist 70 years ago are objectively harmed by the use of a crossbow


----------



## Wyvern Creations

Just out of pure idiot curiosity...what has been happening in NY with the crossbow bill??? In all the foot stamping and chest pounding on this thread no real information has surfaced on what is happening in NY I have friends and relatives that live in NY that would like to purchase/use crossbows. 

Wyvern


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Why don't you tell us what motivates them other than selfishness. I think that has been settled and is no longer subject to debate. In fact most of the people on your side have already admitted the fact
> 
> 
> telling a disabled vet he cannot hunt with the most appropriate form of archerytackle is unsupportable


1. I've never supported a quota or limit to the number of hunters on any public land. Everyone has the same opportunity. Selfishness-destroyed. just stop-you look silly.

2. I've never opposed crossbows for any hunter with a disability(vet or not). Your use of the inflammatory "vet" shows your weakness and appeals to emotion rather than fact. 

It's amazing that a crossbow supporter uses the weakest argument available. I never get tired of it.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> 1. I've never supported a quota or limit to the number of hunters on any public land. Everyone has the same opportunity. Selfishness-destroyed. just stop-you look silly.
> 
> 2. I've never opposed crossbows for any hunter with a disability(vet or not). Your use of the inflammatory "vet" shows your weakness and appeals to emotion rather than fact.
> 
> It's amazing that a crossbow supporter uses the weakest argument available. I never get tired of it.


We always win any argument. That is why the PBS and other groups lie about xbows. We don't have to lie because the facts are on our side.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> We always win any argument.


I guess that's why they are still non-approved weapons all over the place. :laugh:

You will continue to lose because of the facts.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> I guess that's why they are still non-approved weapons all over the place. :laugh:
> 
> You will continue to lose because of the facts.


Really? what state has say rolled back crossbow usage in the last five years?

We are still waiting for an objective argument from your side as to why the proposed legislation expanding xbow use is deleterious to archery hunting

If you all had sound arguments why does the PBS spew lies such as claims that 300 FPS xbows shoot "almost twice as fast" as most compound bows or that "novices with xbows" shoot tighter groups at 65 yards than do expert compound archers with releases and sights do at 26 yards?


----------



## spangler

thesource said:


> Bullcrap.
> 
> The wildlife of NY belongs to the citizens of NY.
> 
> We are nice enough to allow non-residents to share our wildlife (for a price), but that does not entitle them to an opinion about NY and its wildlife.
> 
> 
> Residents make the rules.
> 
> Non-residents are allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.....if you don't like the rules, don't go there.


The federal land located in New York and the animals on it are owned by the federal government and as it turns out, I pay taxes to the federal government.

I have as much of a voice in it as you do.


----------



## Jim C

spangler said:


> The federal land located in New York and the animals on it are owned by the federal government and as it turns out, I pay taxes to the federal government.
> 
> I have as much of a voice in it as you do.


Ouch time. Good point


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> We are still waiting for an objective argument from your side as to why the proposed legislation expanding xbow use is deleterious to archery hunting


For the same reason the draw lock is still non-approved in places. Crossbows are not being singled out. Verticals held at full draw are too.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> For the same reason the draw lock is still non-approved in places. Crossbows are not being singled out. Verticals held at full draw are too.


Non answer-how does using a crossbow objectively hurt bowhunting when it is clear it will allow some to bowhunt who cannot now


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Non answer-how does using a crossbow objectively hurt bowhunting when it is clear it will allow some to bowhunt who cannot now


Those people can use crossbows. 

Why does something have to hurt bowhunting to be non-approved? That's not a rule of life or law. Spears are banned, and the only person I know that has used one has a 100% success rate. He also put his picture in the paper and was promptly arrested. :laugh:


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Those people can use crossbows.
> 
> Why does something have to hurt bowhunting to be non-approved? That's not a rule of life or law. Spears are banned, and the only person I know that has used one has a 100% success rate. He also put his picture in the paper and was promptly arrested. :laugh:


spears aren't archery tackle

next


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> spears aren't archery tackle
> 
> next


Draw locks are archery tackle. Next.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Draw locks are archery tackle. Next.


crossbows are-that is why crossbows are sold in archery stores and xbows are part of NAA, NFAA and IBO competitions. You confuse archery tackle with approved hunting equipment. In ohio a 30 pound bow is not approved hunting equipment but you would be laughed at if you claimed its not archery gear. same with field tips. In ohio a 225 pound xbow is not legal for hunting either. most limitations are based on humaneness or safety. Care to try again?


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> crossbows are-that is why crossbows are sold in archery stores and xbows are part of NAA, NFAA and IBO competitions. You confuse archery tackle with approved hunting equipment. In ohio a 30 pound bow is not approved hunting equipment but you would be laughed at if you claimed its not archery gear. same with field tips. In ohio a 225 pound xbow is not legal for hunting either.


I've never had a better advocate. Great point. Better read what you wrote again. 

And wait? Are you saying the draw lock is not archery tackle?


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> I've never had a better advocate. Great point. Better read what you wrote again.
> 
> And wait? Are you saying the draw lock is not archery tackle?


we are talking about legalizing a bow that is accepted as legitimate archery hunting equipment in several states, and provinces and for some people in almost all states. YOu are trying to sidestep facts.

once again there is absolutely NO deleterious impact on archery seasons by treating a crossbow the same as acompound. The only reason why they are in some states for SOME people is due to the whinings of the selfish


----------



## ///36m

NY resident here.

IMHO, the basis by which NY state defines a disabled hunter is pathetic. A hunter with a legit disability that would like to hunt during bowseason with a crossbow should be allowed.

FYI here are the current rules: 
http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/25018.html
http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/25022.html

I do not know what a "mechanized device for holding and releasing the bowstring" is. Maybe someone could help me. Is this something that is realistically easy for a disabled person to use?

Seems to me NY would rather not have to define what disabilities are allowed to use crossbows. I understand where they are coming from. That would be a whole 'nother can of worms. 

Regarding crossbows in general: My 2 cents as a NY state resident and hunter is I do not want crossbows allowed in NY. I suppose I would not be opposed to them during gun season, if one was such inclined, however I'd would rather they not be allowed at all. I am totally against crossbow use during bowseason.


----------



## Jim C

///36m said:


> NY resident here.
> 
> IMHO, the basis by which NY state defines a disabled hunter is pathetic. A hunter with a legit disability that would like to hunt during bowseason with a crossbow should be allowed.
> 
> FYI here are the current rules:
> http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/25018.html
> http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/25022.html
> 
> I do not know what a "mechanized device for holding and releasing the bowstring" is. Maybe someone could help me. Is this something that is realistically easy for a disabled person to use?
> 
> Seems to me NY would rather not have to define what disabilities are allowed to use crossbows. I understand where they are coming from. That would be a whole 'nother can of worms.
> 
> Regarding crossbows in general: My 2 cents as a NY state resident and hunter is I do not want crossbows allowed in NY. I suppose I would not be opposed to them during gun season, if one was such inclined, however I'd would rather they not be allowed at all. I am totally against crossbow use during bowseason.



why=are you opposed to compounds?


----------



## ///36m

Jim C said:


> why=are you opposed to compounds?


Compounds = crossbow??? I'm not too familiar with the language here.

In general I know of alot of people who are primarily uneducated hunters in NY, and all of these hunt with guns. I do not want to categorize everyone, but I would not parallel NY hunters in general to most other state's hunters in general knowledge. This is not a "hunting state". Upstaters do enjoy the wildlife, but most people hunt as an afterthought. 

The bow season and late muzzleloader season are my favorite time to hunt. I have NEVER, not once, ran into someone who wasn't a "real" hunter that used a bow to hunt in NY state. Everyone I know who bow hunts or muzzleloads have been around hunting for years, understands the etiquette, and takes hunting seriously. It is not merely something to do on thanksgiving with the family to pass the time.

I parallel a crossbow with a gun. You pull it back and sit there with it, no? I cannot pull back my bow @ 6am when I get into my stand and have it like that all day, waiting for a deer to walk by. However those are the type of people I would see entering the woods during bowseason which I would rather not have there. The people that are unwilling to spend the time learning about the woods, setting up stands, scouting, etc etc. I like to have the early season to true hunters. 

Please correct me if I am wrong, I entered this thread to give an honest opinion and learn. 

Also can you inform me as to what range the average crossbow is accurate to? (We can define accurate as to a killing shot on a deer, or you can define it anyway you feel comfortable.) How fast (fps) does the avg new crossbow fire an arrow?

-Nate


----------



## Jim C

///36m said:


> Compounds = crossbow??? I'm not too familiar with the language here.
> 
> In general I know of alot of people who are primarily uneducated hunters in NY, and all of these hunt with guns. I do not want to categorize everyone, but I would not parallel NY hunters in general to most other state's hunters in general knowledge. This is not a "hunting state". Upstaters do enjoy the wildlife, but most people hunt as an afterthought.
> 
> The bow season and late muzzleloader season are my favorite time to hunt. I have NEVER, not once, ran into someone who wasn't a "real" hunter that used a bow to hunt in NY state. Everyone I know who bow hunts or muzzleloads have been around hunting for years, understands the etiquette, and takes hunting seriously. It is not merely something to do on thanksgiving with the family to pass the time.
> 
> I parallel a crossbow with a gun. You pull it back and sit there with it, no? I cannot pull back my bow @ 6am when I get into my stand and have it like that all day, waiting for a deer to walk by. However those are the type of people I would see entering the woods during bowseason which I would rather not have there. The people that are unwilling to spend the time learning about the woods, setting up stands, scouting, etc etc. I like to have the early season to true hunters.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, I entered this thread to give an honest opinion and learn.
> 
> Also can you inform me as to what range the average crossbow is accurate to? (We can define accurate as to a killing shot on a deer, or you can define it anyway you feel comfortable.) How fast (fps) does the avg new crossbow fire an arrow?
> 
> -Nate


The claims that xbow archers-because it takes slightly less time to learn to SHOOT accurately than a compound bow-spend less time learning to HUNT is the same argument used against compound archers 30 years ago by the recurve and longbow archers.

The average current hunting compound has no more range than the average current hunting crossbow and vice versa. Many crossbow hunters in ohio are older gentlemen with years of experience but who no longer use a compound or recurve.


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> The claims that xbow archers-because it takes slightly less time to learn to SHOOT accurately than a compound bow-spend less time learning to HUNT is the same argument used against compound archers 30 years ago by the recurve and longbow archers.
> 
> The average current hunting compound has no more range than the average current hunting crossbow and vice versa. Many crossbow hunters in ohio are older gentlemen with years of experience but who no longer use a compound or recurve.



Exactly!


----------



## ///36m

Jim C said:


> The claims that xbow archers-because it takes slightly less time to learn to SHOOT accurately than a compound bow-spend less time learning to HUNT is the same argument used against compound archers 30 years ago by the recurve and longbow archers.
> 
> The average current hunting compound has no more range than the average current hunting crossbow and vice versa. Many crossbow hunters in ohio are older gentlemen with years of experience but who no longer use a compound or recurve.


My arguement actually revolved around the fact that both guns and crossbows have triggers. Bows do not. re: "I parallel crossbows to guns, not bows"

I am convinced people who do not bowhunt would hunt during archery season given the opportunity to pull a trigger.


----------



## Jim C

///36m said:


> My arguement actually revolved around the fact that both guns and crossbows have triggers. Bows do not. re: "I parallel crossbows to guns, not bows"
> 
> I am convinced people who do not bowhunt would hunt during archery season given the opportunity to pull a trigger.



LOL that is humorous. How many compound archers are shooting fingers or pure back tension releases? OOPS


----------



## GCOD

///36m said:


> My arguement actually revolved around the fact that both guns and crossbows have triggers. Bows do not. re: "I parallel crossbows to guns, not bows"
> 
> I am convinced people who do not bowhunt would hunt during archery season given the opportunity to pull a trigger.


:icon_1_lol:then what do you call that thing sticking off the side of your release.well I believe it is called a trigger :bartstush:


----------



## Jim C

GCOD said:


> :icon_1_lol:then what do you call that thing sticking off the side of your release.well I believe it is called a trigger :bartstush:



I sort of figured he wouldn't be back after making that claim:wink:


----------



## ///36m

You guys are hostile. Jim C took my long post, contorted a small section of my comments to parallel them to an arguement I never made, and then stated that, in his opinion, most xbox hunters are older men, at least in Ohio.

That's fine, but it doesn't help this discussion.

Am I correct in saying you draw the xbow back when you get into your stand, and the xbow stays in that position the entire time you are on the stand? You then aim at your target and fire, correct?

If this is correct, I see this as a much closer parallel to how you fire a gun than how you fire a bow.

I would like you to comment on this. It was the point of my prior post. 

Comparing shooting a gun to shooting a bow based on the use of a mechanized archery release is, in my opinion, ludacris.


----------



## aceoky

> Am I correct in saying you draw the xbow back when you get into your stand, and the xbow stays in that position the entire time you are on the stand? You then aim at your target and fire, correct?
> 
> If this is correct, I see this as a much closer parallel to how you fire a gun than how you fire a bow.


Nice try, you're very conveniently leaving out such things as range , trajectory and HOW the weapons operate. (e.g. bullets vs arrows tipped with broadheads)

You are also leaving out (which goes along with the range part of the equation) that you Must be much closer for archery than a gun.
How a weapon is fired is absurd anyway, it's how it functions in the "after the shot" that REALLY matters, and crossbows kill exactly like all other forms of archery do......NOT similar at all to ANY gun!:cocktail:


----------



## rattus58

thesource said:


> One wonders why a crossbow petition in NY is any business of someone from TN.
> 
> Why don't you let NY sportsmen determine what is best for NY sportsmen?
> 
> Thanks.


People go skiing in states that have ski resorts. People go sunbathing at beaches that have sun. People go hunting in states that allow hunting to non-residents. If someone loves a particular method of hunting, cross-bow/muzzleloader/archery/spear/dogs/bait/etc etc... then if new york adopted crossbow hunting, then those that love their crossbows could go hunting in New York as well, if they so chose. 

Alot of outofstaters may also benefit tourism... this is found money to a state, so the more out of state hunters that respond positively to this regulation may also have an influential impact on the decision.

Aloha..  :darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

///36m said:


> You guys are hostile. Jim C took my long post, contorted a small section of my comments to parallel them to an arguement I never made, and then stated that, in his opinion, most xbox hunters are older men, at least in Ohio.
> 
> That's fine, but it doesn't help this discussion.
> 
> Am I correct in saying you draw the xbow back when you get into your stand, and the xbow stays in that position the entire time you are on the stand? You then aim at your target and fire, correct?
> 
> If this is correct, I see this as a much closer parallel to how you fire a gun than how you fire a bow.
> 
> I would like you to comment on this. It was the point of my prior post.
> 
> Comparing shooting a gun to shooting a bow based on the use of a mechanized archery release is, in my opinion, ludacris.


what is funny is that the accuracy of good to great compound archers is much better than good to great xbow archers. The best Crossbow archer in US history wouldn't have placed in the TOP 100 at the NFAA indoor.

Here is the issue-how a weapon is discharged is meaningless for making game laws. Its how it impacts the Game that matters. I realize people like you want to find "differences" in order to justify differential treatment when the bottom line is that compounds and crossbows are THE SAME in every area that matters


----------



## rattus58

*I'm happy to respond*



///36m said:


> You guys are hostile. Jim C took my long post, contorted a small section of my comments to parallel them to an arguement I never made, and then stated that, in his opinion, most xbox hunters are older men, at least in Ohio.
> 
> That's fine, but it doesn't help this discussion.
> 
> Am I correct in saying you draw the xbow back when you get into your stand, and the xbow stays in that position the entire time you are on the stand? You then aim at your target and fire, correct?
> 
> If this is correct, I see this as a much closer parallel to how you fire a gun than how you fire a bow.
> 
> I would like you to comment on this. It was the point of my prior post.
> 
> Comparing shooting a gun to shooting a bow based on the use of a mechanized archery release is, in my opinion, ludacris.


There is a great temptation to try to equate a cross-bow with a gun, and in some states it is regulated in the muzzleloader or general firearms seasons. This really is not the place for a crossbow.

The only reason a crossbow is not in the archery season is that when states were originally adopting "special interest" rules and seasons, they went to the organizations that were most notable in those particular sports, and in the case of archery, the NFAA, NBEF were the organizations typically solicited for input. According to the NBEF and the International Hunter Education Association don't consider a crossbow a bow by virtue of its being able to maintain full draw mechanically. They consider mechanical devices to hold a compound at full draw not a bow either.

That a crossbow (and not all of them are so designed) looks like a rifle is irrelevant. A pistol with a stock attached is not a rifle, no matter how much you try to make it look like one... same goes for a modern muzzleloader... its still a muzzleloader, and the operative component of a crossbow is a set of limbs and a string. Moreover, both a crossbow and bow shoot... what... bullets or arrows? Both kill by... you got it... slice and bleed, and both are very very short range methods of hunting.

There is a strong bias against crossbows, but for the most part its bigoted. As for comparing an 80% letoff compound, 4 power opticals, attached laser rangefinders, mechanical releases, and the like, it is entirely appropriate to compare them especially at the point firing. At the point in the hunt that one is drawing down on an animal, there is little if anything to separate the two.

Aloha.... Tom  :darkbeer:


----------



## rattus58

Jim C said:


> I realize people like you want to find "differences" in order to justify differential treatment when the bottom line is that compounds and crossbows are THE SAME in every area that matters


Were you looking over my shoulder whilst I was searching for the proper prose to present this.... :grin: :grin:

Aloha...  :darkbeer:


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> There is a strong bias against crossbows, but for the most part its bigoted. As for comparing an 80% letoff compound, 4 power opticals, attached laser rangefinders, mechanical releases, and the like, it is entirely appropriate to compare them especially at the point firing. At the point in the hunt that one is drawing down on an animal, there is little if anything to separate the two.
> 
> Aloha.... Tom  :darkbeer:


As long as the same objection is made to the draw lock, it cannot be bigoted. "Bigoted" is just an inflammatory word used by crossbow proponents because they really have no better weapon than false shame. Same reason you see jealous and greedy used.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> As long as the same objection is made to the draw lock, it cannot be bigoted. "Bigoted" is just an inflammatory word used by crossbow proponents because they really have no better weapon than false shame. Same reason you see jealous and greedy used.


LOL project much?


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> LOL project much?


Weak/lame.


----------



## rattus58

*Bigotry*



PMantle said:


> As long as the same objection is made to the draw lock, it cannot be bigoted. "Bigoted" is just an inflammatory word used by crossbow proponents because they really have no better weapon than false shame. Same reason you see jealous and greedy used.


A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance 

Well when you look at the definitions of bigot... I disagree with your assertion that we have no better weapon.... indeed, it is the archers, and more specifically the compound bow users especially, who are bigoted about this issue. The definition is right on... especially the obstinate or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions part.... just as traditional archers were and traditional muzzleloader shooters are... now the compound shooters are getting all hysterical.

The historical reason was drawlock/mechanical draw whatever... MOSTLY BECAUSE CROSSBOWS WERE NOT AN ISSUE. They were not being manufactured, as modern muzzleloaders weren't when muzzleloader seasons were started. However, that excuse is irrelevant in fact. The facts are, that a crossbow is mechanically similar/identical to a compound/recurve at the point of release. This is ALL that matters. When one is awaiting game to move into a lane to be shot, the hold at 10-15 pounds is effortless with a compound and can be held for many minutes... but even that has nothing to do with the issue.

Crossbows and compounds and recurves and longbows all share three things. 1) Powered by limbs. 2) Launched via string or cable 3) The projectiles are similar/identical and lastly use the same broadhead for killing.

Compounds are so complex and advanced today that their similarities to a longbow are hard to envision, yet they are considered a bow. They are far more complex than is a crossbow, yet it seems that it is the crossbow that they are trying to emulate. The simplest thing to do would be to drop the vertical compound and adopt the crossbow... its a lot simpler. In fact, a modern crossbow has more relevance to historical correctness than does ANY compound bow. If in fact you want to argue historical correctness to this issue, it is the crossbow that should be legal and the compound begging for inclusion.

Those who argue against the crossbow seem to me to be insecure. Why is that? Why are compound shooters fearful of crossbows? A crossbow is just another implement and method of hunting. It is NO different than a bow in aiming, power, arrow, or broadhead/fieldtip, speed, or effectiveness. Oh... effectiveness... this is something that has been questioned. 

People are producing documents that crossbow hunters are more effective than are vertical archers. Ostensibly, these are game department results that are being bantered about. If that is at all true, then you have to question the ethics of a compound and recurve and longbow in hunting situations.

Ethically, I want to make sure my animal is not lost. How about you? Are compounds less effective than a crossbow? Is a recurve less effective than a crossbow? How about my longbow? Am I at risk of losing an animal because of my equipment? I'm sure you are going to tell me that, no, archery equipment is just as effective as a crossbow is, aren't you? So, what's your beef with a crossbow?

Aloha...  :darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Weak/lame.


weak and lame is all your side has. Every fact and every bit of empirical data is on our side. That is why the PBS has to lie and why you have to whine about drawlocs.

I have no need to camoflauge or hide my reasons for supporting xbows. You do and that is why your arguments against legislation such as this are so easy to pick apart


----------



## Marvin

rattus58 said:


> A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
> 
> Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
> : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
> 
> Well when you look at the definitions of bigot... I disagree with your assertion that we have no better weapon.... indeed, it is the archers, and more specifically the compound bow users especially, who are bigoted about this issue. The definition is right on... especially the obstinate or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions part.... just as traditional archers were and traditional muzzleloader shooters are... now the compound shooters are getting all hysterical.
> 
> The historical reason was drawlock/mechanical draw whatever... MOSTLY BECAUSE CROSSBOWS WERE NOT AN ISSUE. They were not being manufactured, as modern muzzleloaders weren't when muzzleloader seasons were started. However, that excuse is irrelevant in fact. The facts are, that a crossbow is mechanically similar/identical to a compound/recurve at the point of release. This is ALL that matters. When one is awaiting game to move into a lane to be shot, the hold at 10-15 pounds is effortless with a compound and can be held for many minutes... but even that has nothing to do with the issue.
> 
> Crossbows and compounds and recurves and longbows all share three things. 1) Powered by limbs. 2) Launched via string or cable 3) The projectiles are similar/identical and lastly use the same broadhead for killing.
> 
> Compounds are so complex and advanced today that their similarities to a longbow are hard to envision, yet they are considered a bow. They are far more complex than is a crossbow, yet it seems that it is the crossbow that they are trying to emulate. The simplest thing to do would be to drop the vertical compound and adopt the crossbow... its a lot simpler. In fact, a modern crossbow has more relevance to historical correctness than does ANY compound bow. If in fact you want to argue historical correctness to this issue, it is the crossbow that should be legal and the compound begging for inclusion.
> 
> Those who argue against the crossbow seem to me to be insecure. Why is that? Why are compound shooters fearful of crossbows? A crossbow is just another implement and method of hunting. It is NO different than a bow in aiming, power, arrow, or broadhead/fieldtip, speed, or effectiveness. Oh... effectiveness... this is something that has been questioned.
> 
> People are producing documents that crossbow hunters are more effective than are vertical archers. Ostensibly, these are game department results that are being bantered about. If that is at all true, then you have to question the ethics of a compound and recurve and longbow in hunting situations.
> 
> Ethically, I want to make sure my animal is not lost. How about you? Are compounds less effective than a crossbow? Is a recurve less effective than a crossbow? How about my longbow? Am I at risk of losing an animal because of my equipment? I'm sure you are going to tell me that, no, archery equipment is just as effective as a crossbow is, aren't you? So, what's your beef with a crossbow?
> 
> Aloha...  :darkbeer:


what do you mean by effective? kill more animals?


----------



## rattus58

That's what they seem to be saying... that harvests are better with crossbows than with other.... 

This is just hearsay on my part, and I'm just repeating what I have seen on these threads regarding crossbows... 

But, the question is still a valid one... is a crossbow more effective... and that would lead to the question of shot placement.. same as it was for compounds... lower holding weight... less struggle, more accuracy, better shot placement...

If you are going to argue about crossbows, everything should be fair question.... should it not? Now, while I don't think anyone is going to admit that a crossbow is more effective than a compound from the archery camp and I don't think anyway that is the case anyway, but if you believe the harvest numbers that have been suggested here, crossbows harvest more animals... there has to be a reason. Is it more crossbow shooters than vertical? Is it more crossbow days in the field? This can make a big difference. If you have 20 hunters and 20 days of hunting. That in total would be 400 hunter days between them. But lets say that the crossbow shooters are retired workers and have time to sit in the fields, where the vertical shooters are workers... and can spend only 10 days of the 20 in the field.. then you have this disparity. If each camp has 5 deer per hunter day in the field, in other words, they are equal, 10 days = 50 deer... and 20 days = 100.

This goes to methods.. maybe retirees prefer the crossbow for whatever reason and they have the time. More deer are taken with a crossbow.. but "effectiveness" is the same. Its hard to say without study... but I ask the question anyway.... what is more effective? Is anything?

Aloha...  :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

> Its hard to say without study... but I ask the question anyway.... what is more effective? Is anything?


Good question!

And there have been studies using real data.

Actually the REAL data (from numerous states including Ohio where they've been legal for about three decades) proves there is NO difference in harvest rates or hunter success rates between compound bows and crossbows......they ARE the same....fwiw


----------



## rattus58

Thanks Ace... I would like to know where to gather that data for our presentation to the state of Hawaii. Leave no stone unturned I've been told... 

Aloha.. Tom  :darkbeer:


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Good question!
> 
> And there have been studies using real data.
> 
> Actually the REAL data (from numerous states including Ohio where they've been legal for about three decades) proves there is NO difference in harvest rates or hunter success rates between compound bows and crossbows......they ARE the same....fwiw


be leary of ohio's information...they really have no idea how many users they have...regardless of weaponry. all they have are estimates from harvest..I have been doing some digging myself and I am surprised the lack of info and breakdowns they have.


----------



## aceoky

rattus58 said:


> Thanks Ace... I would like to know where to gather that data for our presentation to the state of Hawaii. Leave no stone unturned I've been told...
> 
> Aloha.. Tom  :darkbeer:


Check you pms in a few please.....


----------



## rattus58

Hi Ace... I will... I'm off to a meeting but will be back in a few hours...

Thanks again... 

Aloha..  :beer: :darkbeer:


----------



## ///36m

aceoky said:


> Nice try, you're very conveniently leaving out such things as range , trajectory and HOW the weapons operate. (e.g. bullets vs arrows tipped with broadheads)
> 
> You are also leaving out (which goes along with the range part of the equation) that you Must be much closer for archery than a gun.
> How a weapon is fired is absurd anyway, it's how it functions in the "after the shot" that REALLY matters, and crossbows kill exactly like all other forms of archery do......NOT similar at all to ANY gun!:cocktail:





rattus58 said:


> There is a great temptation to try to equate a cross-bow with a gun, and in some states it is regulated in the muzzleloader or general firearms seasons. This really is not the place for a crossbow.
> 
> The only reason a crossbow is not in the archery season is that when states were originally adopting "special interest" rules and seasons, they went to the organizations that were most notable in those particular sports, and in the case of archery, the NFAA, NBEF were the organizations typically solicited for input. According to the NBEF and the International Hunter Education Association don't consider a crossbow a bow by virtue of its being able to maintain full draw mechanically. They consider mechanical devices to hold a compound at full draw not a bow either.
> 
> That a crossbow (and not all of them are so designed) looks like a rifle is irrelevant. A pistol with a stock attached is not a rifle, no matter how much you try to make it look like one... same goes for a modern muzzleloader... its still a muzzleloader, and the operative component of a crossbow is a set of limbs and a string. Moreover, both a crossbow and bow shoot... what... bullets or arrows? Both kill by... you got it... slice and bleed, and both are very very short range methods of hunting.
> 
> There is a strong bias against crossbows, but for the most part its bigoted. As for comparing an 80% letoff compound, 4 power opticals, attached laser rangefinders, mechanical releases, and the like, it is entirely appropriate to compare them especially at the point firing. At the point in the hunt that one is drawing down on an animal, there is little if anything to separate the two.
> 
> Aloha.... Tom  :darkbeer:



Guys thanks for framing the arguement, Tom especially. I agree with many of the arguements in these posts. I entered this thread because the crossbow issue intrigue's me, but I have never debated the issue, therefore I framed the arguement as I saw it, the device is held back mechanically, therefore is not a parallel to a bow. I was uninformed about the issue, as i stated. I was forward in my admittance to knowing little about the debate.

As I said *most* the posts here have opened my eyes to issue, and I appreciate it, it was the intent of my posts. I still do not know how I feel about the issue, but as you frame the debate, which I will be the first to admit is fairly framed, you have more good points than bad.

JimC: You do nothing to help the xbow movement you are obviously so adamant in defending. You refused to explain your arguement. You posted multiple times in this thread in an argumentative, negative and derogatory manner.

Thanks to everyone else who was kind enough to layout the debate in an informative manner. :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

The "big crossbow debate" is really nothing more to most folks than a total lack of knowledge of what they really are and are not. Once most folks realize they are but one more choice (of several already) of an archery hunting weapon; they soon realize it's no big deal, or as some like to say "much ado about nothing" .....both are in fact true.

There is no good reason for one hunter to care what another one is archery hunting with "over there" anyway. WE are at a time when we need to focus on unity, acceptance, and concerns for each other and the choices made. To do otherwise IMO is short-sighted and very dangerous , as the Anti Hunters and AR groups have each of us in their sites like no time before.

I may not hunt "your way".....but I'll fight for YOUR right to do it...simple as that to me; whether it's buckshot, crossbows , it doesn't really matter in the "big picture" it's better to support each other than to fight and divide over petty issues that really don't affect YOU one bit in the end....those other groups WILL affect YOU given even half a chance!


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## Jim C

There is no debate-it is like astronomy 500 years ago. Galileo said the earth revolves around the sun, the church said the opposite. One side used faith, the other side used science. I don't need to explain my arguments, I have science.


----------



## ///36m

Jim C said:


> There is no debate-it is like astronomy 500 years ago. Galileo said the earth revolves around the sun, the church said the opposite. One side used faith, the other side used science. I don't need to explain my arguments, I have science.


The other side doesn't understand your science if all you do is yell in their face "HEY SCREW YOU, I HAVE SCIENCE".

And life is a debate. How you frame the issue determines the science used. If I wanted to argue, I would frame the issue that anything using a mechanized holding device should not be allowed in the woods during bow season. You would then try to switch that debate to your opinion that the way the weapon is held is inconsequential, what matters is the implement fired from the weapon. (Or something along these lines) And we could go on and on and on. Its not worth it, and I'd rather not have such an arugement anyway. But realize your holier than thou attitude gets you nowhere.


----------



## ///36m

aceoky said:


> I may not hunt "your way".....but I'll fight for YOUR right to do it...simple as that to me; whether it's buckshot, crossbows , it doesn't really matter in the "big picture" it's better to support each other than to fight and divide over petty issues that really don't affect YOU one bit in the end....those other groups WILL affect YOU given even half a chance!



I agree.

In NY neither crossbows nor buckshot will be legalized anytime soon. So I suppose you are right that there is no debate anyway.


----------



## Jim C

///36m said:


> The other side doesn't understand your science if all you do is yell in their face "HEY SCREW YOU, I HAVE SCIENCE".
> 
> And life is a debate. How you frame the issue determines the science used. If I wanted to argue, I would frame the issue that anything using a mechanized holding device should not be allowed in the woods during bow season. You would then try to switch that debate to your opinion that the way the weapon is held is inconsequential, what matters is the implement fired from the weapon. (Or something along these lines) And we could go on and on and on. Its not worth it, and I'd rather not have such an arugement anyway. But realize your holier than thou attitude gets you nowhere.


they don't want facts, so there is no reason to reason with them. They purvey lies. GO look at the "marlow" report that the PBS uses to convince weak minded lawmakers. That report claims the following

1) that a 300 FPS xbow "shoots at almost twice the speed as most compounds". This report was updated in 2000 and that line still was there

2) Expert compound archers with releases and sights are outshot by novices using crossbows-crossbow archers shoot the same sized groups at 65 yards what expert compound archers shoot at 26 yards.

Utter lies. yet when I pointed out that world champion crossbow archers using 3000 dollar xbows didn't shoot scores as high as 100 compound archers in the NFAA tournament, the antis tried to claim well maybe those guys weren't experts etc or the crossbow guys weren't as good as NOVICES etc

the reason why this happens is that the antis are afraid to tell us what really motivates them

hence all the lies. I am not going to convince people like that no matter what facts I bring to bear. So the thing to do is to prove them selfish liars so that those on the fence see what the PBS and those who oppose xbow legalization in NY and other states really are.


----------



## aceoky

> hence all the lies. I am not going to convince people like that no matter what facts I bring to bear. So the thing to do is to prove them selfish liars so that those on the fence see what the PBS and those who oppose xbow legalization in NY and other states really are.


JimC has a VERY valid point! Not to try to defend him in any way (he is more than capable of doing that on his own, thus doesn't need it from me)...

Those of us who have fought for the simple choice of ONE more archery weapon (along with all of the others) have been told outright foolish things when WE present real actual factual data from various state's own DNRS.....Things like "well, that is only the opinion of the Senior Wildlife Biologist of that state (for posting the DATA he'd gathered , NOT his opinion) etc.etc. IOW when the DATA doesn't help their agenda (and it never does) they "twist and spin" things trying to alter iron clad Data....and that's a "good example" those who oppose them (and without ever giving ONE sound reason) seem to not care about facts,truth or other's feelings at all. 
After several years of watching it (and being a part of trying to change the total misinformation they often spread) it's easy to form some attitudes and opinions on those foolish tactics.

Their unfounded fears cloud their judgment to a point that it's honestly sad more often than not.


----------



## Jim C

aceoky said:


> JimC has a VERY valid point! Not to try to defend him in any way (he is more than capable of doing that on his own, thus doesn't need it from me)...
> 
> Those of us who have fought for the simple choice of ONE more archery weapon (along with all of the others) have been told outright foolish things when WE present real actual factual data from various state's own DNRS.....Things like "well, that is only the opinion of the Senior Wildlife Biologist of that state (for posting the DATA he'd gathered , NOT his opinion) etc.etc. IOW when the DATA doesn't help their agenda (and it never does) they "twist and spin" things trying to alter iron clad Data....and that's a "good example" those who oppose them (and without ever giving ONE sound reason) seem to not care about facts,truth or other's feelings at all.
> After several years of watching it (and being a part of trying to change the total misinformation they often spread) it's easy to form some attitudes and opinions on those foolish tactics.
> 
> Their unfounded fears cloud their judgment to a point that it's honestly sad more often than not.


Lies I have heard from Anti Xbow Organizations

1) crossbows are the preferred weapon for poachers-legalize crossbows and poaching will increase (a complete lie on two counts. 22 rifles are the preferred weapon and poaching with bows did NOT increase in areas that allowed Xbows)

2) Xbow hunters are less safe and less ethical than compound archers-citations for violations of hunting laws or accidents are statistically the same In Ohio which has the largest pool of data

3) Xbow archers are lazy and don't care about hunting traditions-this is one of the PBS' famous lies. How they can come close to proving that is impossible to delineate.

4) xbow archers who are novices can outshoot professional or expert compound archers. Well given that the best US xbow archer in history couldn't beat a couple 100 compound archers at NFAA Louisville in 2006 its hard to fathom how complete novices using far less precise hunting xbows are going to outshoot experts (no matter how you define experts)

5) xbows shoot at "almost" twice the speed as most compounds circa 2000

6) The pope banned xbows 700 years ago proving they are "unholy" (seriously, the Marlow report makes that comment)



Then we get to the average xbow bashers

1) since a crossbow looks like a gun it should be in "gun season"

2) Xbows are far more accurate, powerful and have much longer range than compound bows

3) xbow archers are slobs and don't care about hunting ethics


plus all the bs "officially" spewed.

all lies or unsupportable nonsense.

why the lies? because they realize arguing facts doom them


----------



## rattus58

Who is PBS?


----------



## Jim C

rattus58 said:


> Who is PBS?


It is a group that calls itself the ProfessionalBowhunters Society. They lie about crossbows and pretend to be elites. IF many of them had their way they would ban compound bows as well as crossbows.


----------



## x-shocker

How would I become a Professional Bowhunter?

I bow hunt and my profession is computer support: hey, I guest that makes me a "professional Bowhunter".


----------



## rattus58

:grin::grin:


----------



## Jim C

x-shocker said:


> How would I become a Professional Bowhunter?
> 
> I bow hunt and my profession is computer support: hey, I guest that makes me a "professional Bowhunter".


Good question-I suggested a truth in advertising violation but the authorities had better things to do:wink:


----------



## aceoky

> n NY neither crossbows nor buckshot will be legalized anytime soon.


I don't know about that! I have NO clue on buckshot in NY, but as far as crossbows go our OWN Doctari here , put up a poll in NY and the vast majority of NY hunters who voted supported crossbow legalization!!! NO "multiple votes" were allowed, so it's a very good poll ......and shows that the hunters in NY have decided to accept facts and data over BS spewed by "bow clubs" that can't back up their own claims..

Also keep in mind this thread is REALLY about whether a disabled VET (who risked life and limb for US) should be allowed to choose the best archery weapon for HIM.........OR have OTHERS decide for him....seems to me, IF he's capable of fighting for HIS country , he's more than capable of making that choice himself...


----------



## Tim4Trout

Folks.

The issue here is not about any technical aspects of crossbows in comparison to conventional bows.

New York is one of a handful of states where for all practical purposes the vast majority of disabled hunters are currently unable to utilize crossbows during the archery season. 

This proposed law would simply enable to those hunters the opportunity to bow hunt that they are currently being denied.


----------



## rattus58

Yes.... but New York is like Hawaii. Hawaii's Laws FORBID crossbow use. The state allows crossbow use for disabled, but they did this illegally, that is, without the proper procedure being followed. Because of that, we're challenging the rules Forbidding crossbows since the state also was kind enough to come up with rules for crossbow use in the process.

If New York is going to allow the use for Disabled, then the door really is open for crossbow use on principle. And after all, why on Gods Green Earth should a crossbow not be allowed for hunting. In Hawaii we allow spears, knives, pistols, and dogs in the pursuit of game (dogs for pigs)... oh... and bows and arrows too.. 

Aloha....  :beer::darkbeer:


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> The facts are, that a crossbow is mechanically similar/identical to a compound/recurve at the point of release. This is ALL that matters.


Drawlock. Used on a compound. Not approved same as a crossbow. You don't address it, instead you resort back to the same old name calling. Argument destroyed...again.


----------



## PMantle

///36m said:


> JimC: You do nothing to help the xbow movement you are obviously so adamant in defending. You refused to explain your arguement. You posted multiple times in this thread in an argumentative, negative and derogatory manner.
> 
> Thanks to everyone else who was kind enough to layout the debate in an informative manner. :darkbeer:


Thankfully, Jim C. does not listen. he does more for my side than anything I could ever do. Nothing like offending those with no opinion. Not unlike the general hunting rights issue. Those on the bowhunting forum defending ANY legal means have no idea what damage they do by their method of argument. Make those with no opinion cross their arms and shut their ears. It's basically a honey and vinegar situation, and Jim has a cellar full of vinegar to dish out.


----------



## aceoky

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattus58 View Post
The facts are, that a crossbow is mechanically similar/identical to a compound/recurve at the point of release. This is ALL that matters.




> Drawlock. Used on a compound. Not approved same as a crossbow. You don't address it, instead you resort back to the same old name calling. Argument destroyed...again.


Name calling??? I fail to see that in the quote???? 

The fact is; compounds are FAR easier to use and require far less practice than recurves and longbows do. They are legal, thus crossbows which pre-date them by centuries should also be legal. And at a time in our sport where we need numbers and a much stronger voice it's simply irresponsible and short-sighted to try to exclude rather than to include.....


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Thankfully, Jim C. does not listen. he does more for my side than anything I could ever do. Nothing like offending those with no opinion. Not unlike the general hunting rights issue. Those on the bowhunting forum defending ANY legal means have no idea what damage they do by their method of argument. Make those with no opinion cross their arms and shut their ears. It's basically a honey and vinegar situation, and Jim has a cellar full of vinegar to dish out.


as I mentioned the anti xbow people are impervious to facts. They only use facts as a facade to cover up their real motivation and the facts they use tend to be half truths or irrelevant. Yes, my goal is to show people what really motivates the anti xbow leaders so they realize what they are dealing with

Draw Locks=RED HERRINGS
Same with the arguments about inline muzzle loaders or allowing handguns or rifles

The issue is crossbows and the arguments against them have NO BASIS in fact


----------



## aceoky

Still the fact of the matter is, or the real question is: should a Disabled American Vet be dictated to on what he can or can't hunt with in an open to the public archery season???


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Draw Locks=RED HERRINGS
> Same with the arguments about inline muzzle loaders or allowing handguns or rifles
> 
> The issue is crossbows and the arguments against them have NO BASIS in fact


High comedy. Fact-drawlocks are used on vertical bows and are non-approved, same as crossbow. No bigotry. Common thread? Held at full draw. ANY weapon held at full draw is illegal here, and will be forever. No discrimination. No greed. No jealousy. Just fact.


----------



## PMantle

aceoky said:


> Still the fact of the matter is, or the real question is: should a Disabled American Vet be dictated to on what he can or can't hunt with in an open to the public archery season???


Vet or not, the disabled should be allowed to use whatever it takes to get past their handicap. I feel the same for older hunters, but have no strong opnion re: what age should be used. 65 sounds right, but I could be convinced otherwise.


----------



## rattus58

PMantle said:


> High comedy. Fact-drawlocks are used on vertical bows and are non-approved, same as crossbow. No bigotry. Common thread? Held at full draw. ANY weapon held at full draw is illegal here, and will be forever. No discrimination. No greed. No jealousy. Just fact.


:beer:

That comparison is not quite a valid one when comparing crossbows to compounds. A draw lock is comparing compounds to compounds with a means to maintain full draw mechanically. 

My opinion is that the NFAA, NBEF, IHEA have really pulled one over on the hunters with their self serving pronouncements that a crossbow is not a bow by virtue of being able to be held at full draw. Crossbows have been around since the beginning of time, as far as we're concerned, and lived alongside both ancient longbow and recurve. Historically the crossbow belongs with the bow. They both operate in mechanically the exact same fashion.... you draw and release. The release creates an action identical in both cases... a power stroke propels an arrow tipped with a broadhead (for hunting) at your target.

Enter the compound. The compound, through mechanical means, is attempting to emulate the crossbow. How so.. you must be asking.... simply... the compound bow is trying to create an environment where the archer has to expend the least amount of "total" effort in order to accurately shoot his bow. With the letoffs available today, holding a 15lb draw weight is commonplace with heavy bows flinging arrows at speeds twice the speed of "circa 2000" compounds... the argument used against crossbows. In fact, when you look at the average crossbow, their speeds are less than 300 fps by large measure.

What is the issue? We are talking hunting here, not competition on a range. If you are talking about competition, then the playing field must be even/level, for you don't compete compounds with recurves except in an open class. We are talking about hunting, where the individual effort of the hunter puts him in position to harvest his game. If the compound shooter can hold his bow for several minutes at full draw waiting for a game animal to present the proper shot (and you see this every night on the Outdoor Channel), how does this play against the recurve shooter or longbow shooter who cannot "hold" for more than a second or two.. (my case anyway).

The arguments against the crossbow are very disingenuous at best, with the compound, a johnny come lately, taking a superior attitude against a traditionally correct archery piece... the crossbow. This has been one of the most blatant "hoaxes" brought upon the archery community I have ever seen.

Then of course you have to look at what the compound adorns itself with. Besides the 80% letoff, you have range compensating sights, you have up to 4 power optics available right now, you have electronic rangefinders you can mount on the bow, you have wrist wrapped trigger releases, and all sorts of wizardry and gadgetry that clearly take the compound out of the traditional bow category and makes one wonder why they are still "legal" for hunting in archery only areas when the crossbow isn't.

Historically speaking, functionally speaking, a crossbow is more relevant to an archery season than is the current compound by any measure, and when you look at the ultimate result of ANY bow... they all cast an arrow due to the power stroke of a set of bow limbs. What else really needs to be said... remember, we're talking about hunting... not competition.

Aloha...  :beer: :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

PMantle said:


> Vet or not, the disabled should be allowed to use whatever it takes to get past their handicap.
> 
> I feel the same for older hunters, but have no strong opnion re: what age should be used. 65 sounds right, but I could be convinced otherwise.


.
Sadly the great state of NY (at this time) doesn't care too much about disabled hunters IMHO. Perhaps the attention on this will help to change that...


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> :beer:
> 
> That comparison is not quite a valid one when comparing crossbows to compounds. A draw lock is comparing compounds to compounds with a means to maintain full draw mechanically.


You're missing the point. On purpose maybe, but missing it nonetheless. Those who oppose crossbows also oppose compounds equiped with a draw lock. Vertical, horizontal, backward or forward. You can call a crossbow archery equipment all you want. It's a meaningless designation as shown by the fact that other archery equipment is banned along with it.


----------



## rattus58

I'm not missing anything, sir, I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of trying to keep the crossbow out of an archery season when you allow the compound of today in. 

If anyone is trying to obfuscate the issue, it is by those bringing in the drawlock to the conversation and saying "see... we don't want either" and going off with an elitist air about them. 

I'm not accusing you of being an elitist, but your not addressing the issues concerning "hunting" show that when you look at traditional archery.. which you seem to be arguing that a compound with all the wizardry and gadgetry and shooting and release aids (letoff etc) is in any way related to a recurve or longbow, is being disingenuous. 

When both the compound and the crossbow can maintain a draw for minutes on end, please tell me in the real world, where there is a difference between the two.

Aloha... :beer:  :darkbeer:


----------



## rattus58

And further, I am not arguing against the drawlock... I'm actually wondering whether or not there has been a massive hoax perpetrated by the compound shooter crowd (those 2% who argue against things) and the Archery Organizations who arbitrarily considered that the crossbow wasn't a bow in the first place.

I'm wondering whether a compound SHOULD EVEN BE CONSIDERED a bow by the same arguments that they try to foist upon the crossbow. What difference really is there between a reduced holding weight and a crossbow? If a bow is a device that has to be hand held, but you are able to use "mechanical means" to reduce the holding weight to 20% of the actual draw weight, how does that fly when comparing that to a crossbow? They both are using a mechanical means to benefit the shooter compared to the recurve or longbow shooter.

Aloha...  :beer: :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

PMantle said:


> You're missing the point. On purpose maybe, but missing it nonetheless. Those who oppose crossbows also oppose compounds equiped with a draw lock. Vertical, horizontal, backward or forward. You can call a crossbow archery equipment all you want. It's a meaningless designation as shown by the fact that other archery equipment is banned along with it.


Not exactly, the drawlock is an add on accessory, crossbows are NOT...


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> I'm not missing anything, sir, I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of trying to keep the crossbow out of an archery season when you allow the compound of today in.
> 
> If anyone is trying to obfuscate the issue, it is by those bringing in the drawlock to the conversation and saying "see... we don't want either" and going off with an elitist air about them.
> 
> I'm not accusing you of being an elitist, but your not addressing the issues concerning "hunting" show that when you look at traditional archery.. which you seem to be arguing that a compound with all the wizardry and gadgetry and shooting and release aids (letoff etc) is in any way related to a recurve or longbow, is being disingenuous.
> 
> When both the compound and the crossbow can maintain a draw for minutes on end, please tell me in the real world, where there is a difference between the two.
> 
> Aloha... :beer:  :darkbeer:


You're not arguing in good faith, so, buh bye. Good luck to you, but as long as you continue to ignore the weakness of your argument, you will turn more people off than on. Maybe there is a good response to the drawlock on your side. I have not seen it, and could not come up with one if paid.


----------



## PMantle

aceoky said:


> Not exactly, the drawlock is an add on accessory, crossbows are NOT...


Wow. You really typed that? If you delete, I'll agree to also so this won't be attached to your name.


----------



## rattus58

I'm not arguing in GOOD FAITH?? GOOD GRIEF how much gooder can I be... 

Arguing a drawlock when you should be arguing the crossbow is not in good faith. I have to agree with Ace on this one. Let us stick to the ISSUE'S... crossbow versus compound.

Aloha...  :beer: :darkbeer:


----------



## MNmike

*ok*

A crossbow can be mechanically held at draw indefinitely.

Even if placed on a hanger, rail, or pod device.

A crossbow can be held up indefinitely by mechanical means and shot with aide of said means.

NASA, I see a difference.


----------



## aceoky

Mike Ryan said:


> A crossbow can be mechanically held at draw indefinitely.
> 
> Even if placed on a hanger, rail, or pod device.
> 
> A crossbow can be held up indefinitely by mechanical means and shot with aide of said means.
> 
> NASA, I see a difference.


Which has nothing to do in a hunting situation whatsoever.......most bowhunters KNOW to "draw" while the deer's view is obstructed,(as one would do in raising the crossbow for the shot while the deer can't detect the MOVEMENT....) if they can hold for several minutes on game what is the real difference??? NONE!

Even "if" it was hanging, it has to be MOVED to be used .....and movement IS movement whether it be drawing or taking the crossbow off a hanger and getting it into place for the shot???

And has NOTHING at all to do with this NY DAV NOT being allowed to use a crossbow for his archery hunting in his home state (that he fought for as well as the rest of this country)....


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

rattus58 said:


> :beer:
> What else really needs to be said... remember, we're talking about hunting... not competition.
> 
> Aloha...  :beer: :darkbeer:


:darkbeer:....ahhhhh....but we are talking about competition between men when hunting. It is just that there are few willing to admit it.

This is an extension of gun vs. bow.... 

"who gets to hunt the rut and define why?"


----------



## PMantle

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> :darkbeer:....ahhhhh....but we are talking about competition between men when hunting. It is just that there are few willing to admit it.
> 
> This is an extension of gun vs. bow....
> 
> "who gets to hunt the rut and define why?"


This is close. I'll give Jim one thing. The debate is about greed. Greed of gun hunters though, not compound hunters.


----------



## MNmike

*don't know where that came from*



aceoky said:


> Which has nothing to do in a hunting situation whatsoever.......most bowhunters KNOW to "draw" while the deer's view is obstructed,(as one would do in raising the crossbow for the shot while the deer can't detect the MOVEMENT....) if they can hold for several minutes on game what is the real difference??? NONE!
> 
> .....and movement IS movement whether it be drawing or taking the crossbow off a hanger and getting it into place for the shot???
> 
> And has NOTHING at all to do with this NY DAV NOT being allowed to use a crossbow for his archery hunting in his home state (that he fought for as well as the rest of this country)....



Why do you think it had anything to do with *NY DAV* or what not?

I'm pointing out the difference that IS the real opposition of many DNR officials, and archery organizations.

"Even "if" it was hanging, it has to be MOVED to be used "

Sure, but not drawn. Also if railed or on a *pod* it may be moved much less.

Sounds like less movement than reaching for a bow and drawing it.


----------



## aceoky

> Why do you think it had anything to do with *NY DAV* or what not?


Did you read the first post on this thread??(what the thread is about?) :cocktail:


----------



## rattus58

Mike Ryan said:


> A crossbow can be mechanically held at draw indefinitely.
> 
> Even if placed on a hanger, rail, or pod device.
> 
> A crossbow can be held up indefinitely by mechanical means and shot with aide of said means.
> 
> NASA, I see a difference.


Very true. What does that have to do with whether a crossbow should be allowed for hunting? A compound bow is mechanically benefitted compared to the long bow to reduce the draw weight to a point where it can be held for an inordinate amount of time whereas the longbow and recurve can be held by me, in any event, for only seconds at a time and shoot accurately.

If the argument against crossbows is its ability to be held for lengthy periods when we are talking about hunting, then the argument AGAINST compounds being allowed is equally as valid. You either have advantage or you don't. You cannot be just a little bit pregnant, you either have advantage or you don't. In the case of the compound, you surely do, and you have a manifold advantage over the crossbow as well, in speed, in carrying weight, in range compensating sights, rangefinders, and the convenience of multiple shots in very quick span compared to a crossbow. 

I'm beginning to look at this whole argument much differently than I once did, and honestly, if compound shooters weren't making such a fuss about crossbows making some really irrational statements that piqued my interest, I wouldn't have ever got into this, but now I are and we are prepared to challenge this if necessary. For me, they ALL should be allowed and give the individual his right to choose. Bottom line, not one has advantage over the other once the arrow is on its way except maybe speed wise, where a recurve and longbow average 150 to 165 maybe, and compounds today at over 300 fps being bragged on by every manufacturer I've looked at, crossbows don't even do that on average... 

This argument against crossbows in my OPINION is a grand hoax perpetrated by the compound shooters against the traditional archers and other hunters in trying to weasel their way into a special hunting season and I for one think that you either let crossbows in with you, or cut out compounds from the archery seasons altogether.

Aloha...  :beer: :darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

> Sure, but not drawn. Also if railed or on a *pod* it may be moved much less.


Again movement IS movement and there is NO way to know how much one hunter would move compared to another.....weapons don't make good hunters hunting skills do, there is no point being made here, no matter what archery weapons are being used there IS movement(and at close range e.g. archery range)......deer detect slight movements 24/7.......


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> I for one think that you either let crossbows in with you, or cut out compounds from the archery seasons altogether.


Of course you think that. It fits your agenda.


----------



## aceoky

PMantle said:


> Wow. You really typed that? If you delete, I'll agree to also so this won't be attached to your name.


You totally confused me on that????

I don't know any reason to delete, it's a fact???


----------



## rattus58

PMantle said:


> Of course you think that. It fits your agenda.


 I appreciate that you have a position against crossbows being allowed in an archery season. I have a position that I've taken based upon study and research, not an agenda. My OPINIONS are strictly my own, and there is no conspiracy associated with my formulations.

Personally I'm fighting for crossbows to be legalized in Hawaii. I don't care where they go, whether into archery, gun, muzzleloader or their own season, my interest is one of getting them legalized to correct a major FUBAR by the State respecting Disabled Hunters.

However, now that I've had the time to research this issue, and listen to crossbow detractors, I got even more piqued... and when you do the study that I have so far, and I've a long way to go yet, when you measure the arguments of compound shooters against the crossbow against the compound versus the longbow, which is what I shoot, I don't see any difference between a compound and crossbow against me. So being that's the case, its seems hypocritical to me that compound shooters or any archery organization argues against the crossbow for hunting. 

That is my position right now and I'm pressing it with not only the state of Hawaii, but with the NBEF and the IHEA, both organizations to which I belong by virtue of being a bowhunter education instructor for both. This argument for me is not over, in fact the more I get into it, the more I see we need change.

Many states already rightfully allow crossbows in Archery only seasons and when you look at the facts side by side, getting the rhetoric, the emotion, and whatnot out of it, there is no reason to disallow the crossbow without also disallowing the compound.

Aloha.. Tom :beer::darkbeer:


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> there is no reason to disallow the crossbow without also disallowing the compound.


There's plenty.


----------



## PMantle

aceoky said:


> You totally confused me on that????
> 
> I don't know any reason to delete, it's a fact???


Drawlock is a brick and you're drowning slowly. I'd love to be in the room when you get it. Probably rival the reaction of Darwin on the Beagle.


----------



## spangler

PMantle said:


> There's plenty.


Well, no reason other than you shoot a compound. 

I'm sure what he meant is that there is no VALID reason.

Your compound bow has a ridiculous amount of advantage over a recurve/longbow. Why do you think you should be able to use it during archery season?

The crossbow has only a very small advantage over the compound bow. What exactly is your problem?

-Andrew


----------



## spangler

> Please do not debate the validity and merit of crossbows in any regard. YEP -- new AT rule from the top (above me).
> 
> You guys just end up flaming each other and NEVER come to any conclusion...been yapping like magpies for months on this stuff.
> 
> Thanks
> OX


I now see the sticky right above this very thread. Even though Ox is retired, I'm guessing the rule is still in effect. I will remove myself from this "debate". Even if that wasn't a rule I probably would. There is no point raising logical points with people who have their fingers in their ears and run around screaming "la! la! la!"

-Andrew


----------



## rattus58

PMantle said:


> There's plenty.


Ok... enlighten me.....

How about giving me 5 reasons of the PLenty you suggest that have to do with the equipment. No rhetoric.

Also for me, please compare the compound to the stick bow and tell me the advantages of the compound.

Then, if you wouldn't mind, tell me of the advantages of the crossbow over the stick bow.

Then, if you wouldn't mind, please tell me if there is any real difference between them?

Thank you in advance... 

Aloha..  :beer:


----------



## aceoky

> Drawlock is a brick and you're drowning slowly.


NO.....a drawlock is an add on accessory NOT an archery weapon. A crossbow is a legitimate archery weapon you're TRYING to compare apples to watermelons.....'tis not me who is "drowning" here.


----------



## Jim C

spangler said:


> Well, no reason other than you shoot a compound.
> 
> I'm sure what he meant is that there is no VALID reason.
> 
> Your compound bow has a ridiculous amount of advantage over a recurve/longbow. Why do you think you should be able to use it during archery season?
> 
> The crossbow has only a very small advantage over the compound bow. What exactly is your problem?
> 
> -Andrew


actually there is no advantage in effectiveness, there is a slight advantage in ease of use for novices

its like a sandpaper ping pong paddle-its much easier for a novice to keep a ball in play with a sandpaper paddle compared to the stuff I used to compete with. Beginners couldn't control the Sriver FX 2.5mm rubber sheets on the super fast blade I used. However, saying the sandpaper paddle was more effective was false. For a beginner it was for a 1200 level (tournament low level player it wasn't) for a 2000 level (expert) you would have no chance against someone of your own level using a inverted rubber bat.

for complete novices xbows are more effective and have an advantage. after a week of practice there is NO advantage. for good to very good archers, the compound has an overall advantage over the crossbow


----------



## PMantle

aceoky said:


> NO.....a drawlock is an add on accessory NOT an archery weapon. A crossbow is a legitimate archery weapon you're TRYING to compare apples to watermelons.....'tis not me who is "drowning" here.


I cannot believe you keep saying that. How is calling it an accessory a talking point? Fact remains that it allows a bow to be held at full draw the entire hunt, just like a crossbow, and fact remains that it renders a compound illegal to use in many places, just like a crossbow. Proof positive that 1. there is no bigotry, 2. a characteristic has been identified that renders one thing approved and another non-approved.. and 3. I forgot, but it will come to me later after I've had my coffee. ;-)


----------



## aceoky

PMantle, you obviously think you're making a valid point , but most of us do not agree.(it IS a crossbow forum after all)..
It's "OK" to agree to disagree. In America it's even a "good thing" to do so , from time to time!.

You wish to talk about facts

1.) Compounds don't normally come equipped with drawlocks rendering the "point" moot
2.) A high let-off compound (some over 90%) give Mechanical Advantage in holding the bow string back at Full Draw (exactly what a crossbow does) .
3.) NO one can claim it's "harder" to shoot a compound than a longbow
4.) "Degrees" of holding the bow string back don't really matter, either YOU hold it ALL back or YOU don't, and mechanical advantage bears the majority of it, how "much" is held back isn't as important as that YOU aren't doing the holding thus "hand held and hand drawn" harm YOUR stance with compounds as much (if not more) than crossbows since crossbows are ancient archery weapons .
5.) A compound equipped with an add on Drawlock is as much of a "real bow " as it ever was.......so is a crossbow a bow.


Still none of this has anything to do with the absurd New York regs on disabled hunters and crossbow use in that state.


----------



## PMantle

aceoky said:


> (it IS a crossbow forum after all)..


What's a crossbow forum? I'm banned from there, so I can't even read it.

Oh, and I agree with your point on opinions and all, but you're still dead wrong on the draw lock. It's really a simple thing. Why do you think it's non-approved? Pretty much the same reason the crossbow is not. It's really that simple.


----------



## aceoky

Sorry my mistake, not crossbow forum. after all.


----------



## MooseRidge

*Maine is Allowing*

Maine's law on crossbows used to be worded "for handicap only". The person had to get a letter from a doctor spelling out in detail what the disability was and then the request for the use had to go up to a board that actually voted on the approval. I saw more people turned down than approved. 

In 2006 crossbows were allowed during the firearm season only and only in certain zones. Also only deer and bear can be taken with a crossbow. Basically if you take an animal with a gun you can't use the crossbow or if you take with the crossbow you can't take another with the gun. As for when the season is, I guess something is better than nothing. Or as I call it "it's a foot in the door". Anyone wanting to use a crossbow must take the Archery Safety Course and the Crossbow Safety Course, before getting a license. There was a lot of debating between the pro-crossbows and the Maine Bowhunters Assco. And basically this is what was worked out with the give and takes. As an instructor for both of these courses. I personally only had 12 people total sign up for the 3 classes we held for the crossbows. Most of them were small framed and/or very young hunters that wanted to hunt but did not like the "kick" of a firearm.

I'm glad that Maine is a least giving crossbows a chance instead of just NO. Sorry I haven't seen any numbers yet as to how the 2006 season went for the crossbow.


----------



## MNmike

*not again*

"1.) Compounds don't normally come equipped with drawlocks rendering the "point" moot
2.) A high let-off compound (some over 90%) give Mechanical Advantage in holding the bow string back at Full Draw (exactly what a crossbow does) .
3.) NO one can claim it's "harder" to shoot a compound than a longbow
4.) "Degrees" of holding the bow string back don't really matter, either YOU hold it ALL back or YOU don't, and mechanical advantage bears the majority of it, how "much" is held back isn't as important as that YOU aren't doing the holding thus "hand held and hand drawn" harm YOUR stance with compounds as much (if not more) than crossbows since crossbows are ancient archery weapons .
5.) A compound equipped with an add on Drawlock is as much of a "real bow " as it ever was.......so is a crossbow a bow."



1) it's not a *moot point*. When regulations state that "can not be held back by mechanical means". It does not state mechanical means "from the factory".

2) the archer is holding the string back regardless. The cross bow isn't. And it can be held back for infinity on the crossbow weather the archer has their hand on the equipment or not.

3) is some situations it is harder/longer to aim and get a shot off with a compound than with a recurve/longbow with instinctive shooting.

4) hog wash! The issue isn't about "chicken or the egg" in your comparison.

5) the compound itself maybe, but it ain't legal with the drawlock.

Tell me there isn't a great advantage to this....

Sitting in a treestand with a mono-pod with 360* allaround adjustable fixed to your crossbow. Cocked and loaded, butt end on your knee. You see a deer coming in the distance. You raise the stock and rest it into your shoulder. The monopod relieving the majority of the equipment weight. Following the deer movement thru your scope with the swiveling action of the pod and the crouching and straightening of your back, until the shot can be made. This can be done indefinitely.

Try that with any vertical bow without your eyes off the pin or letdown.

No, no advantages to vertical bows.


----------



## rattus58

PMantle said:


> What's a crossbow forum? I'm banned from there, so I can't even read it.
> 
> Oh, and I agree with your point on opinions and all, but you're still dead wrong on the draw lock. It's really a simple thing. Why do you think it's non-approved? Pretty much the same reason the crossbow is not. It's really that simple.


Hi Mr. Mantle Sir,

Ace is correct. The issue is that a compound is legal in an archery season, not that a drawlock is not. To take a piece of equipment that is so mechanically advantaged as a compound is and allow it for hunting in an archery season while to not allow the crossbow is the issue. 

The compound with a mechanical trigger realease provides such a gross advantage over the recurve and longbow that I'm actually appalled that compound shooters have the gall to complain about the inclusion of the crossbow, a simple device by comparison that is in fact historically appropriate to the archery season.

Every once in a while we find out that there are unintended consequences to certain rules that are made. These rules work both ways. Rules for something can be just as bad as rules against something. Bill Wadsworth and the many others who originally wrote the Bowhunter Education Programs for the NFAA and then a few years later went off on their own in conjunction with what is now the IHEA, they stated that a bow needed to be hand drawn. This was surely to keep the crossbow, for whatever reason, out of archery hunting seasons. Many of us sometimes become invested in our decisions. That is what happened to the compound. 

When the compound came along, there was a huge uproar about how unfair it was, but the final decision came down that yes there was mechanical advantage, but it was hand drawn and so was still a bow. Unintended consequences. The cat was out of the bag, the genie was out of the bottle because a compound was hand drawn and held, yet has every advantage, and in fact many will say, more so than a crossbow. Sometimes rules need to be changed in the interest of balance. 

If the argument is that a crossbow can't go hunting because the draw is infinite, then one has to question the rationale of permitting the compound which also allows for a much diminished holding draw weight compared to a longbow or recurve and in fact allows for holding at full draw for minutes on end. The argument should really be framed around how similar the compound is with the crossbow when compared to the recurve and longbow, not whether a draw can held for an infinite time or not. The contest is not how long one can hold full draw but whether there is inordinate advantage over the recurve or longbow. If that answer is yes, then the crossbow, a realistically traditional implement, should either be included or game departments should consider taking the compound out of it.

Compound shooters are wanting it both ways, but its time someone started asking questions of game departments of the rationale of permitting compounds in an ARCHERY ONLY season, while not allowing a crossbow, a simple device that does have traditional and historical value in those seasons as well.

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> Hi Mr. Mantle Sir,
> 
> 
> 
> The compound with a mechanical trigger realease provides such a gross advantage over the recurve and longbow that I'm actually appalled that compound shooters have the gall to complain about the inclusion of the crossbow, a simple device by comparison that is in fact historically appropriate to the archery season.


1. Neither recurves, nor long bows are at issue in this or any other thread on Archery talk

2. Historically appropriate is meaningless. Atl Atls are non-approved too. Lets start a push for that inclusion while we are at it. Spears too.

Drawlock's a brick and you're drowning slowly.


----------



## Jim C

Mike Ryan said:


> "1.) Compounds don't normally come equipped with drawlocks rendering the "point" moot
> 2.) A high let-off compound (some over 90%) give Mechanical Advantage in holding the bow string back at Full Draw (exactly what a crossbow does) .
> 3.) NO one can claim it's "harder" to shoot a compound than a longbow
> 4.) "Degrees" of holding the bow string back don't really matter, either YOU hold it ALL back or YOU don't, and mechanical advantage bears the majority of it, how "much" is held back isn't as important as that YOU aren't doing the holding thus "hand held and hand drawn" harm YOUR stance with compounds as much (if not more) than crossbows since crossbows are ancient archery weapons .
> 5.) A compound equipped with an add on Drawlock is as much of a "real bow " as it ever was.......so is a crossbow a bow."
> 
> 
> 
> 1) it's not a *moot point*. When regulations state that "can not be held back by mechanical means". It does not state mechanical means "from the factory".
> 
> 2) the archer is holding the string back regardless. The cross bow isn't. And it can be held back for infinity on the crossbow weather the archer has their hand on the equipment or not.
> 
> 3) is some situations it is harder/longer to aim and get a shot off with a compound than with a recurve/longbow with instinctive shooting.
> 
> 4) hog wash! The issue isn't about "chicken or the egg" in your comparison.
> 
> 5) the compound itself maybe, but it ain't legal with the drawlock.
> 
> Tell me there isn't a great advantage to this....
> 
> Sitting in a treestand with a mono-pod with 360* allaround adjustable fixed to your crossbow. Cocked and loaded, butt end on your knee. You see a deer coming in the distance. You raise the stock and rest it into your shoulder. The monopod relieving the majority of the equipment weight. Following the deer movement thru your scope with the swiveling action of the pod and the crouching and straightening of your back, until the shot can be made. This can be done indefinitely.
> 
> Try that with any vertical bow without your eyes off the pin or letdown.
> 
> No, no advantages to vertical bows.


1) so what

2) so what

3) so what

4) so what

bray all you want about supposed advantages by people who have zero experience but for someone like me or Willie who have years of experience with both bows the following FACTS are clear

1) the overall "advantages" of a crossbow are not greater than the overall "advantages" of a compound bow. 

2) the supposed "advantages" of a crossbow do not translate into higher rates of predicted harvest so all that braying about xbows is WORTHLESS

3) the learning curve for a trad bow is measured in months if not years. Compounds and crossbows are measured in hours or a few days. 

4) I have taken more deer with xbows than all the anti xbow posters on this forum combined-I have never used a monopod and in the ten years I was either staff at a big archery retailer (which sold lots of xbows) and then at a shop my wife ran I cannot recall anyone ever using one of those things. 

and if they do SO WHAT-why are you against accuracy? the skill is getting a deer within 30 yards or so and estimating the distance.


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## Jim C

PMantle said:


> 1. Neither recurves, nor long bows are at issue in this or any other thread on Archery talk
> 
> 2. Historically appropriate is meaningless. Atl Atls are non-approved too. Lets start a push for that inclusion while we are at it. Spears too.
> 
> Drawlock's a brick and you're drowning slowly.


more drivel. draw lock is a red herring you beat on because you have yet to make a logical response to why people in NY should be able to use xbows.

Your side cannot establish that a crossbow increases the predicted rate of harvest. that is the only legitimate area of concern


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## rattus58

PMantle said:


> 1. Neither recurves, nor long bows are at issue in this or any other thread on Archery talk
> 
> 2. Historically appropriate is meaningless. Atl Atls are non-approved too. Lets start a push for that inclusion while we are at it. Spears too.
> 
> Drawlock's a brick and you're drowning slowly.


Dear Mr. Mantle,

When the compound bow was developed in the early 70's, there was a massive outcry about allowing them into archery only seasons as well by "traditional" archers, something that unfortunately still goes on today. Life advances. The compound because of the language originally set describing being hand held, allowed its inclusion into archery seasons. 

However, when you consider the mechanical advantage provided by the compound bow for hunting compared to the longbow or recurve, the original participants in this saga, and then listen to the arguments by these prestigious organizations railing against the crossbow, you can only deduce the massive hypocrisy of these organizations...

To argue against the crossbow for competition is a valid argument. To argue against the crossbow for hunting is not. A crossbow is a bow. You cannot describe it as anything else. That a tube that the chinese originally filled with powder and handheld, was taken from being handheld to being wrapped along a stick doesn't change its character. Having a bow mounted on a block of wood doesn't change its character. Having a crossbow in the archery hunting season is no different than having cruise control on your car.

A crossbow shoots an arrow/bolt by the exact same means as any other archery device does. How can one argue against such irrefutable facts? It is disingenuous to argue against the crossbow while at the same time having industry loudly proclaiming compound bow characteristics and advantages rivaling those of the crossbow. If we are talking about competition between crossbow and compound, then of course the argument is one of the level playing field. Hunting is not competition in any sense at all. It is the test of mans ability to outwit his quarry and then delivering a proper shot to the vitals.

Drawlocks and all the rest aren't in the discussion other than to obfuscate the discussion. It doesn't matter that they are illegal. It doesn't matter that the crossbow is illegal. We had prohibition at one time too. We had a voluntary tax system at one time too. We had Corona typewriters in our office once too. There is no reason not to move on as more and more people become educated about the crossbow, and getting back to historical perspective, it surely does have relevance when you bring the WHOLE picture together. We are talking about hunting.... hunting.... hunting.... not competition.

:beer:  :darkbeer:


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## x-shocker

Mike Ryan said:


> "
> 
> Tell me there isn't a great advantage to this....
> 
> Sitting in a treestand with a mono-pod with 360* allaround adjustable fixed to your crossbow. Cocked and loaded, butt end on your knee. You see a deer coming in the distance. You raise the stock and rest it into your shoulder. The monopod relieving the majority of the equipment weight. Following the deer movement thru your scope with the swiveling action of the pod and the crouching and straightening of your back, until the shot can be made. This can be done indefinitely.
> 
> Try that with any vertical bow without your eyes off the pin or letdown.
> 
> No, no advantages to vertical bows.


Now that is hog-wash.

Try this...

You sit in your treestand enjoying the solitude. You see a deer coming in the distance. You determined you want to kill the deer. You quietly stand up and grab your compound bow: the arrow is already notched. You wait until the deer is within range. You pull back the string a quietly released the arrow into the deer. You look back up the trail a see a second deer coming. You have a bonus license and wants that one too. You quickly and quietly notched another arrow with ease and almost no movement at all. You wait until it comes within your comfort zone and let fly the arrow. Two deer down: more venison in the freezer.

Can't do that with a crossbow.


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## aceoky

x-shocker said:


> Now that is hog-wash.
> 
> Try this...
> 
> You sit in your treestand enjoying the solitude. You see a deer coming in the distance. You determined you want to kill the deer. You quietly stand up and grab your compound bow: the arrow is already notched. You wait until the deer is within range. You pull back the string a quietly released the arrow into the deer. You look back up the trail a see a second deer coming. You have a bonus license and wants that one too. You quickly and quietly notched another arrow with ease and almost no movement at all. You wait until it comes within your comfort zone and let fly the arrow. Two deer down: more venison in the freezer.
> 
> Can't do that with a crossbow.


Same is true in the case of a miss.......crossbows and second shots are not conducive .....compounds make that second shot/follow up shot easy. Yet one is allowed everywhere and one is not....no way to justify it either! 
Just because "some" don't want them included is not a valid reason; "some " oppose legal gun ownership, some advocate communism , "some are wrong" on all counts.


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## PMantle

rattus58 said:


> A crossbow shoots an arrow/bolt by the exact same means as any other archery device does. How can one argue against such irrefutable facts?
> Drawlocks and all the rest aren't in the discussion other than to obfuscate the discussion. It doesn't matter that they are illegal.


I'm sorry you don't get the point. Maybe you do, but admitting it is too painful. I know that's the case with Jim. Ask yourself this? What is it about a drawlock equipped bow that makes it non-conforming? What's the one difference between it and a compound? Then ask yourself how a drawlock makes a compound even more similar to a crossbow?

Drawlock's brick and your drowning slowly.


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## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Your side cannot establish that a crossbow increases the predicted rate of harvest. that is the only legitimate area of concern



There's not even a question about that. More people will hunt because of either inability to draw a bow or shear laziness; therefor, even assuming similar rates, which I highly doubt, more kills will result. It's not even debatable.

Oh, and stop with the drawlock poohpoohing. It's so unflattering. No one hear believes you are that dumb.


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## Wyvern Creations

One point with a draw lock that you all have been missing is the considerable danger of an accidental discharge of the bow while traveling to and from your stand or while you are in your stand and not paying attention to your surroundings. If you look at the average person who would use one (the same person who may use a crossbow) they have some form of disability that would possibly hinder their ability to draw a bow. So someone else, (back at the truck perhaps?) draws and locks their bow and sends them off into the woods. Instead of a very compact bow that is safely held away from the archer and solidly mounted on a stock you have 34"X29" of stored energy that you are trying to not get caught on your equipment or the surrounding flora. Most modern crossbows have anti dry fire tangs that even if the trigger was hit the bow would not fire. The draw lock does not have that. I have no trouble picturing a hunter yanking on his cocked 70lb compound that is caught in some brush and it going off while his hands/arm/ head/what ever body part is in the way and having that arrow go flying off to parts unknown or even into that same hunter. Draw locks are not the same as a crossbow, they do not have anywhere near the same level of safety and control that a crossbow does, and as both a traditional and crossbow shooter I personaly think they should not even be sold. They are a disaster looking for a place to happen. Crossbows on the other hand are nothing more than an alternative form of archery. It uses energy stored in limbs to propel an arrow. An atlatl is a spear since it uses the human arm for propulsion. Anyone who even brings up the "why not let atlatl's be legal" is grasping at any idea that comes to mind why not to allow crossbows.

So we are now at 225 posts to this thread and still no real reason why crossbows are not archery. Just once I would like to see someone come up with even a partial reason that not only made sense, but had some facts to back it up.

Oh...and the part about the Pope declaring them "unholy"...They were only outlawed for use against Christians. Every other religion was fair game for crossbows, so they were still considered a viable alternative to the longbow. I study, build, and shoot medieval crossbows. This whole "its not a bow" crap is really getting old and I have almost 2000 years of proof that it is a bow if you really want to play....

Wyvern


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## rattus58

PMantle said:


> I'm sorry you don't get the point. Maybe you do, but admitting it is too painful. I know that's the case with Jim. Ask yourself this? What is it about a drawlock equipped bow that makes it non-conforming? What's the one difference between it and a compound? Then ask yourself how a drawlock makes a compound even more similar to a crossbow?
> 
> Drawlock's brick and your drowning slowly.


Dear Mr. Mantle... 

Let me spell it out for you with a little more clarity... we don't care about drawlocks. We don't care if they or crossbows are illegal, or that uzis are illegal either for that matter. We want change. Pure and simple. Get that through YOUR head. No one here is drowning. A draw lock is NOT a crossbow. 

States that do not accept crossbows in the archery seasons but allow them in other seasons, have taken a step in the right direction. States that have not allowed them, like Hawaii and about 3 or 4 others, need to be educated. Those States that allow crossbows in other or their own seasons can be lobbied to have crossbows included in the archery only seasons, and the rationale for including them is everything we have provided.

Your opinions on drawlocks or whatever are not any albatross for us at all, because it is IRRELEVANT to what we want to happen. We want to have crossbows included... that is ALL THAT MATTERS. I wish people would understand what is going on with this and stick to something that is relevant.

Don't keep saying drawlock drawlock to support your contention of keeping out crossbows.. its irrelevant. WE DON'T CARE!!!

I also got a tip from, and I'm old too... but I think it was from oldbutgettingbetter ... or something to that likeness... said that compounds could be advantaged in lettoff to any amount shy of 100% and be legal when using using the crossbows infinite hold as an example of keeping them out. It has been demonstrated on TV on the Outdoor Channels over and over how compounds are drawn and held for lengthy periods of time while waiting for animal to step into a shooting lane. No movement discernable by the animal because its walking into a motionless archer. 

Me, and anyone else that uses a recurve or longbow, do not have that luxury. We have to draw essentially as the animal approaches or is in the shooting lane, thus creating movement. It is fair to compare the compound to the recurve and the longbow when discussing introducing the crossbow to an archery only season since the reality is that the compound is every bit as capable and moreso generally than is the crossbow.

A crossbow is a compound on cruise control, don't you think?

Aloha... :beer:  :darkbeer:


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## Jim C

PMantle said:


> There's not even a question about that. More people will hunt because of either inability to draw a bow or shear laziness; therefor, even assuming similar rates, which I highly doubt, more kills will result. It's not even debatable.
> 
> Oh, and stop with the drawlock poohpoohing. It's so unflattering. No one hear believes you are that dumb.



the same nonsense can be applied to compounds-it allows people unable or unwilling to master a trad bow or a recurve. I have forgotten more about archery than you will ever know PM and your draw lock red herring is a joke as is your facade as to what motivates your position. MOre people hunting is a GOOD THING to everyone but the selfish greedy types


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## Stringwacker

When it comes to crossbows...it always becomes an argument. I've never seen why grown mean can't be civil about a honest debate. We all pick a side and get belligerent when the other side disagrees. Can we not all conceed that thjis debate usual has a 50/50 split down the middle(?)....that we might possibly be wrong? We battle more over ego's than we ever argue over crossbows. Let it be known to everyone....I *could* be wrong but here's my take on the issue.

First...I'm pro crossbow, pro gun, pro bow, pro anything if it's legal. That being said, seasons have been establish to represent both biological and user desire needs. Once the biological bookends are established, then what hunters want come into play. The reasons that one may want a croosbow or not may be purely personal....but that's just as important as any biological need as hunters are paying the bills for wildlife conservation. Democracy doesn't make you explain your vote....they just count them. As it pretains to the crossbow, 50/50 polls are fairly common from what I've seen when polled among all hunters...yet when bowhunters are polled seperately the crossbow is viewed overwhelmingly negative. Where do such bowhunter polls take place?....usually within state bowhunter organizations which have a rather dim view from crossbow proponents. Yet can anyone really believe that the majority of bowhunters who have learned special skills, bought hand drawn bows and paid for bowhunting programs through license sales are just going to say....aw shucks...after 50 years let's throw something else in the deal! Whether you call them crossBOWS or CROSSbows...the fact remains that they are different or they wouldn't have their own name and would have been included when state archery seasons were formed half a century ago. The fact remains that after nearly 35 years since the first crossbows were legalized in Ohio and Arkansas.. less than a dozen states have legalized them for use in the archery season by hunters other than the disabled or elderly. One has to ask why? The current users of the archery season don't want them. To ask a nonbowhunter their opinion on the matter is like asking the fox his opinion on the hen house construction....the results are predictable.

Often the crossbow is compared to the compound...they share a few characteristics for sure; they don't share a bunch as well. The compound was accepted in short order in just a few short years....it darn sure didn't take 35 years and still counting. Why?...it was still hand held, hand drawn and it offered a reasonable opportunity for the young, old, women, disabled etc to have equal access to archery seasons. Based on all the pro crossbow (in archery season) arguments....we now now that was the biggest lie in the last century...only the crossbow REALLY does that. (lol)

Throughout history, reflection has never been kind to the aggressor. Look at Germany, Japan, etc. All justified their attacks based on their need...their desire of what was *right*. Yet they attacked unprovoked. Crossbows proponents certainly aren't in the realm of what I've mentioned....but the undeniable fact is that they are attacking the 50 year status qou of state sponsered archery seasons. They want it, they expect it, and they don't care how they get it...as long as they get it.

I predict that 15 years from now the crossbow will have a few more states....but they will come very slowly...bowhunters are mobilizing and they are on the defensive.....and doing a better job. The mere fact that the anti-position can be called selfish is incredible as it is crossbow proponents want something for themselves. The last time I checked archery seasons were open to anyone for the mere cost of a license. Sounds to me...it's the people who not only ask for change...*BUT DEMAND IT *that is selfish. They not only want to participate in the archery seasons...but they demand to be able to hunt with their choice of weapon!!!!!! *What are we to say to the firearm hunter and the black powder hunter who demand the same thing?* The Pro position should be very, very careful because none of us can determine what the "user" side of this debate will bring to us in the long run if we open this pandora box. Why even take a chance? Who gets to hunt tomorrow that don't get to hunt today?


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## rattus58

Hi Stringwacker.... 

I have no dog in this, except that I want crossbows legalized in Hawaii as a legal hunting method. Right now its illegal for everyone, yet the state, without proper due process, allows the disabled to use crossbows and in order to preclude a convoluted rules adjustment, we'd like to have crossbows legalized. Personally I don't care where its allowed in or out of the archery seasons or areas, but I would now like it approved as a legal hunting method, especially since the State is allowing (illegally) disabled to use the crossbow.

That being said, I was asked to do research on the crossbow, both pro and con for our upcoming rules changes of which I am a member of a committee developing a game management plan for the Big Island. In that research I have been doing, I have come upon a lot of interesting information and further an amazing amount of bias.

You say that crossbow hunters are demanding to be let in to archery seasons. They have been excluded from archery seasons it seems to me. From my perspective, they have been unduly excluded from archery all because of a couple of individuals either shortsightedness, bias or plain ignorance back in 1969 as member of the NFAA and ultimately the NBEF with help from IHEA. In MY OPINION, had these organizations accepted crossbows as a segment of the archery community at the outset, we wouldn't be having these discussions today. As it is, the definition of archery equipment excluded the crossbow, and was vigorously pressed by the NBEF/IHEA when it came to hunting.

Fortunately as crossbow hunters lobbied states for crossbow inclusion in hunting seasons, there were some who actually saw no reason to exclude a legitimate hunting method. Those states that allowed crossbows for hunting were farsighted enough to know that this is about opportunity, hunter recruitment, hunter retention, and let's face it, crossbows pay the same tax as do the archery manufacturers as archery equipment.

Personally I think this is a great time to have a debate about crossbows and compounds, and I intend to bring this to debate here in Hawaii, which I think is healthier than what I have witnessed going on elsewhere in many cases. 

You say that crossbow shooters want something for themselves... and so THEY should be called selfish? You say that crossbow shooters DEMAND something for themselves makes them what? Give me one good reason why crossbows should not be legal for hunting? You also say that compounds and crossbows share somethings but very little... this point I totally disagree with you on, and for someone who is obviously as educated as you are to say such, only points out that you have either come on to this discussion late, or have not paid too much attention to it.

I don't shoot crossbows or compound and don't have any desires in either direction. But in looking at this from a completely unbiased point of view at the outset, you cannot help but feel the animosity that has been foisted upon the crossbow from mostly compound shooters who seem to want to protect their corner at all cost, and from my standpoint, I have to ask, protect it from what?

I find it really interesting how the most obsessive rhetoric seems to come from the so called "archery" crowd, which I find to be not only condescending but pretty insulting on much of the occasion. Yup... I think debate on this is really positive and it'll be nice to get the whole picture on the table.

Now you say that muzzleloaders and gun shooters will likely want to get into this as well... well actually they have... and the muzzleloader crowd are having this same infantile debate. 15 years from now game departments might actually get so tired of hearing how archers don't want crossbows... muzzleloaders don't want inlines.... etc etc etc... that they might just say that you hunt with what you want.... no special seasons for anyone. That actually is ok with me, but it might really disappoint a lot of others who have gotten used to "special treatment".

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Jim C

Stringwhacker-the main reason why is because the anti xbow side is dishonest about its motivations


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## Stringwacker

Rattus58,

I hope that you read on another forum that I find your thoughts interesting, You've researched your position well and responded above the emotional fray...in my way of thinking. We actually have quite a lot of common ground.

I've spent close to 25 years involved in the Mississippi Legislature....not as an seated member but as the Legislative Chairman of the Mississippi Bowhunters Association. We were instrumental in bringing the crossbow legal status as a hunting weapon in the state. The state association has supported crossbow use for the elderly, the disabled, and agreed that there was no reason not to allow the crossbow in non-archery seasons. That bill passed three years ago with the state organization's support. Many called it an act of appeasement....I (like you) saw no need for the weapons exclusion. In reading your reply, I'm not entirely sure about your position of it's use in archery season.

If we are talking about the "disfranchisement" of non-bow users within the archery only segment...then crossbow proponents need to take a number and get in line Black Powder users, and gun hunters have been saying the same thing for years. If biological parameters allow it...the only thing that keeps an archery season ...an archery season ...is the user desire of the current participates of a special season structure.

Compound vs crossbows? I actually was trying to infer that they share some characteristics together....not others. They definately share more characteristics today than they did when the Allen compound was invented. To argue over the compound/crossbows similarities without saying it's differences is probabling just an argument built on hedging. If that "jump" is going to be allowed, who knows what the modern crossbow will look like in thirty years of development....if archery seasons can last that long. It happened to the compound and it will happen to the crossbow. Who is the next group that wants in based on the argument "what I want is almost like what is legal". Good gracious...that argument can go on forever. Season structures based on restrictive weaponry have to have a stopping point somewhere if they are going to exist. Let us all agree that stopping point will always be subjective in it's perceived validity...especially to any individual or group tht feels excluded. I've always said this entire national debate is about special season preservation...not the particulary the crossbow.

Your last paragraph is dead on. Probably the best point you have ever made. Having seen the squabbles at the lawmaker level as various sportsmen groups make thier wishes known....lawmakers and DNR really tire of the arguments. I've been told by both Wildlife Committee's and the local state wildlife agency that a one season "pick your weapon" format is in Mississippi's future. The course of action we have taken is the express upon state authorities that we LOVE the seasons the way they are and we aren't asking anybody for anything. We are happy and content. *They seem to appreciate that fact. It's the "agents of change" that are creating issues and resentment*. We do oppose efforts of others to include different weapon types in the archery seasons as the precident of accepting different non-bow weapon seems just to lead to more "me too" arguments. We seen it happen in the muzzleloader season until Mississippi decided to go ahead and legalize centerfire rifles in the "primitive weapon" season. People are now scrathing their head and wondering where the "muzzleloader" season went? Unchecked innovation might lead you somewhere that you don't want to go!

Not to say anything to all these changes (at least in our case) leads you fastly down the road to the one season format. We always remind people that archery seasons provide everyone the opportunity to hunt....if they only choose to do so with a bow.

Jim C,
As the current users of the archery season, shoudn't bowhunters have at least a voice in how the seasons are structured? Does it really matter what those motivations are? I say that not with a sneer...but with complete sincerity.


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## aceoky

> If we are talking about the "disfranchisement" of non-bow users within the archery only segment...then crossbow proponents need to take a number and get in line Black Powder users, and gun hunters have been saying the same thing for years.


NEITHER black powder or centerfire GUNS are archery and thus have no place in archery seasons. Crossbows ARE archery, crossbows ARE archery and thus DO belong in an open to the public archery season. To say it's "selfish" for those who want to use them OR to fight for that right is foolish,absurd and counterproductive. And at a time when MORE archery hunters are badly needed. The "old way " is NOT working we're losing numbers on a daily basis, NOT the time to fight for exclusion rather than inclusion.

Your "non-bow users" speaks volumes......HOW does a crossbow "work"?? Does i NOT launch a broadhead tipped arrow by means of a string and bent limbs? What does a compound do? A recruve? A longbow?

FACT: there is simply NO good reason to allow ALL other archery weapons in an open to the public archery season and exclude one "because some don't want them" when many,many others DO want them allowed. Those who ARE fighting and their own kind no less, are NOT helping hunting or it's image at all. 

NO one is asking they be made mandatory, only they be included with the list of other legal archery weapons in an open to the PUBLIC archery season....

NOW back to NY and it's insane regs on the crossbow and the disabled regs.....it's hard for anyone to try to defend THAT......


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## aceoky

> Season structures based on restrictive weaponry have to have a stopping point somewhere if they are going to exist.


Agreed and for archery season that "stopping point" would be ALL archery weapons are legal, NOT archery NOT allowed.......simple, fair, and HONEST.....


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## aceoky

> the fact remains that they are different or they wouldn't have their own name


Hmm....

Long bow
Recurve bow
Compound bow

Crossbow........

Looks like they ALL have their own names to me....




> .but they will come very slowly...bowhunters are mobilizing and they are on the defensive.....and doing a better job


I don't agree as more states are "wising up", and including crossbows for the entire archery season the DATA proves ALL of the "reasons" for those in opposition NOT wanting crossbows included are proven FALSE .... There will be more states allowing crossbows for everyone the entire archery season for Many reasons .....and all of them real reasons.....Not conjecture, "what ifs" and "false allegations and definitions"(the reason they are not now legal in every state archery seasons wide)..THAT alone is going to matter sooner rather than later. 

Here are only a few real reason WHY crossbow legal for archery states will grow much faster than you seem to think they will.

The NATIONWIDE decline of hunters (especially archery hunters) that is expensive to each state and their funds.......NO one can dispute it with data, nor can they dispute the fact it's proven that crossbows help in that area in big ways!

As so many states found out with the ML seasons, it's not just extra tags or permits sold, $$$ come in many ways whenever you allow a new weapon, one great source of big $$$ is P-R funds from increased sales........THEY need the $$$, HUNTERS want the choice.....it's a "no brainer".....

NO one has OR can show why ALL other forms of archery weapons are legal, but crossbows are not. Same broadheads are often used on other bows and crossbows.......States are realizing this FACT now, and acting accordingly. NO longer do "bow clubs'" have the total say in archery season.......other hunters (who pay the MAJORITY of fees and expenses (gun hunters) also get a say in how things run........Democracy ......as it should be in America!

This point reflects on the above one.Archery hunters do NOT own archery season, never have, never will, EVERY sportsman/woman has just as much say (more IF one looks at who REALLY pays the bills with their fees,tags etc.) and their opinion matters just as much. Many of these folks either want them or couldn't care less (do not oppose crossbows in archery)...

More interest in crossbows and crossbow hunting (just as there was with compounds in the 1970's).......crossbow groups forming on an almost daily basis in various states to thwart the misinformation and get the facts and real data out to their respective states to refute the false claims of the "bow groups"......you''re correct for some 30 years they'd ONLY heard one side of the story (and a majority of that false) that is changing, and rather quickly!

There is certainly a great deal more reasons, but it's not hard to see what is"what" here. And NO, because something has been a "certain way" for "X" years doesn't make it right or "stand alone" as "proof"......many such things have been changed, just as this will soon be!


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## rattus58

Hi Stringwacker .... 

Because I'm old, I'm not sure of remembering the order here, so I'll go as I remember it.... 

I want to get crossbows legal as a hunting method in Hawaii. I don't really care where it fits, whether its an any other than archery season or their own special season or if they share a portion of or whatever. I applaud you and your group for standing up for the crossbow. I just hope I have as much success with it here in Hawaii. 

You asked me what my position is regarding crossbows. Remember now that I hunt with a longbow most of the time and a take-down recurve when I go off Island to hunt. I go hunting with my bow many times in areas that are firearm areas and hunt with my muzzleloaders in Payhunt situations both in Hawaii and on the Mainland. I just love what I hunt with without respect to what you hunt with so my perspectives may be somewhat self centered. 

Hawaii has year round hunting as well as periods where areas are broken up into seasons. In areas where archery is year round, my *inclinations* would be to allow crossbow use if *I was asked to vote on it*. But my AGENDA is only to get it legalized in Hawaii as a proper method of hunting.

I agree with you also about the debate and what it has been reduced to many cases. I agree with you that it serves absolutely no purpose to be bickering and it would be a positive step if more clubs accommodated a new entrant into the archery debate as yours did. It's always much better to have unity than leave the door open even a crack for those that would destroy the whole of us. 

I'm sure that the 80% of folks that still support hunting as a lawful pastime will also tire of public bickering amongst what they must see as brothers in arms. The hunting community as you've alluded, needs be cohesive. I also agree that they all need to respect each other, something I see lacking in numerous cases of the dialog I see.

As titular head of the Hawaii Hunting Association, I hope to bring this issue to as many groups as I can, particularly the archery clubs around the state.

Again, I appreciate those such as yourself who believe that there is more to gain by working out solutions to difficult issues than to take sides.

Much Aloha,

Tom :beer:  :darkbeer:


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## Stringwacker

Rattus58,

Good comments and I wish you well in your endeavors to get the crossbow added as legal weapon in Hawaii....no reason for them not to be in my opinion. My only issue is with their use in archery seasons.

eceoky,

I don't know where you get your energy drinks but do you mind letting me know?(lol) I can hardly keep up with you! If all proponents had as much fire as you did...well I guess crossbow would all be made legal in 48 states in about 1 month! You run off a ton of emotion.....

It's hard to address your comments as you have a definate idea of how things should be and any idea contrary to that seems to strike a nerve with you. Lets remember that we are just two hunters that love the woods but we have different thoughts and direction over a small part of it.

I've watched many heated arguments in the legislature and they all follow the same pattern. Why me?...why not me?...that's unfair; etc. The fact is that we are all different and that probably has more benefit than not over the long run.

I really only see a few real issues that I take exception with your comments. First, we both recognize that for archery seasons to exist that a restrictive barrier has to be maintained...but we draw it at two different places. In either case, the majority of hunters use firearms and they couldn't give a "hoot darn" over whether the line is drawn at my point or your point....since both alternatives leaves them sitting at home in October if they only allow themselves the use of a firearm. These people outnumber us generally two to one so I'm just saying be real careful in what you advocate. You very well may be teaching a legacy of firearm users the right message to use...more hunters, more harvest...higher license sales. God didn't create archery seasons...man did...and man can change them. The legalization of a scoped, triggered, pre-loaded, and shouldered weapon is all firearm users need to advocate something a little different. The propulsion system of string vs powder (to them) will make no more difference than hand held vs shouldered means beween us. People will argue over anything and if they can't find anything...they will make something up.

As far as hunter numbers falling....that transcends all hunting sports and methods. Crossbows are having little or no effect on hunter numbers. If you have any study that shows a overall growth of hunters by legalizing the crossbows; I really need to see it. I have seen were crossbows tend to retain older hunters in archery a little longer...but many states (including my own) has already has addressed that by allowing crossbows for the elderly.

Archery numbers go up when crossbows are legalized within the archery format....but it's quite clear that they are firearm crossovers who are already hunting, but are enticed by the gun type characteristics of the crossbow. Nothing wrong with that but lets just make sure we understand where they are coming from. If they were coming off the football stands to the woods...I might jump ship and support your side; but there is no evidence to that fact.

Lastly, compound vs crossbow, harvest data statistics etc only build a case to allow them to be used. They aren't the final reasoning on the subject. Hunters (user desire) will make those calls based on their own motivations when biological parameters allow it. While I agree with you that no one owns the seasons....I think the current users of a season becomes the stewards of that sport. I think that bowhunters (verticle users) should (and do)have a weighted voice in this matter. State agencies also recognise that fact given the dismal acceptance of the crossbow among states within archery season formats over the last 35 years. To say anything less woud pass the decision processes of any regulation to the majority...in this case; firearm users. Neither one of us would feel very comfortable as it relates to the preservation of archery season if it comes down to one person; one vote.

I disagree with you but I have to admit that I applaud your passion.


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## rattus58

*Agents of Change*

Hi Stringwacker....  :beer:

One last comment from MY PERSPECTIVE. You said "The course of action we have taken is the express upon state authorities that we LOVE the seasons the way they are and we aren't asking anybody for anything. We are happy and content. They seem to appreciate that fact. It's the *"agents of change" *that are creating issues and resentment. We do oppose efforts of others to include different weapon types in the archery seasons as the precident of accepting different non-bow weapon seems just to lead to more "me too" arguments".

I agree with you that it is or are the "agents of change" that create the issue, but I'm not sure that they are creating the resentment and animosity. Never mind for the moment that crossbow shooters consider themselves a bonafide member of the archery community. Never mind for a minute that crossbows have the "historical" advantage over the the compound. Never mind that it was the words of definition by a couple of individuals who created the division of crossbow from archery a few years ago, but lets focus on just one issue... the freedom of choice.

Would you allow an Atlatl or spear or knife in the archery season?... Ok... maybe knife is a little stretch.. but would you allow the other two into archery only? Here in Hawaii, we solved that problem many years ago by making them legal in any season not specifically denoted as "only". For example, you can hunt with a bow in the muzzleloader season. You can hunt with a spear in any season not said to be "archery only" for example... I'm not sure about the atlatl since it is a launched projectile.

The issue is created because people asked for "special" seasons in the first place. When you have hunting seasons that for whatever reason are only so long, you have to divvy up time or areas. These are "special" seasons created to satisfy special interests. When you have a hunting community that pays for the benefit of wildlife and by extension through the license tags and fees, the departments that oversee these events, those that pay for tags and fees have a voice; a legitimate voice.

That people fought for "special treatment" is fine and dandy, we did it here in Hawaii as well, but when other legitimate users ask for inclusion you cannot say that they are fostering resentment and animosity. They have a right to ask. They have a right to debate. They have a right to a vote. When you say resentment over others asking to enjoy a "special" season, that season was initially set aside from the "general" season to accommodate the interest. Why is it that when someone wants inclusion to that season or any season, where none other exists, is that interest the one fostering resentment? It is the "special season" owners that I have seen so far being the most obnoxious in the debate. 

Take the traditional muzzleloader shooters, of which I are one too... I'm ashamed to say actually, traditional muzzleloader shooters have been completely off the wall in the discussion of inline muzzleloaders being allowed in muzzleloader seasons. They, like many archery groups concerning crossbows, want the inline muzzleloader relegated to the general firearms season. I'm not going to go into the hypocrisy of that when it comes to "hi-performance" flintlocks shooting sabots and such that would be allowed in a flintlock only season, just as I'm not going to go back to the crossbow/compound debate here either, but what I'm suggesting is that when you have a "special" season, its not necessarily meant to be forever.

When the question of muzzleloaders come up, it was, hey, we are muzzleloaders, no different than you, and then the whole debate raged... but bottom line, a flintlock shooting 80 grains of powder with a 280 grain bullet is no worse off than is an inline with 80 grains of powder with a 280 grain bullet, period. Then comes the scopes, then comes the sabot, then comes the inline ignition... all of which are irrelevant... the gun shoots from the muzzle, is loaded from the muzzle, and the rest is just rhetoric. This is where the charge of being "selfish" is coming from. They are saying not in my woods because you look different, not because you are different. This seems to also be the charge in many of the archery debates I'm told.

I'm not here to push for crossbow use in archery seasons, but when the arguments are centered around the "hold" aspects of crossbows, without recognition of the same advantage to many, if not most, compounds, I don't mind entering into the debate, for the sake of the debate, for I think that this debate really needs to be undertaken BY ADULTS.

Aloha.... Tom :beer:


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## rattus58

*More $$$ from Pittman Robertson ---*

Hi ACE..... 

I'm not 100% certain of this, but I think that the preponderance of tax dollars distributed by PR today come from range shooters, combat schools, cowboy action shooters and clubs like ours that have competitions every single weekend. We as hunters are of course part of the makeup of the overall groups that are paying into these various funds from our purchases of archery and firearms equipment.

Aloha... :beer:


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## aceoky

> It's hard to address your comments as you have a definate idea of how things should be and any idea contrary to that seems to strike a nerve with you. Lets remember that we are just two hunters that love the woods but we have different thoughts and direction over a small part of it.


A "small part of it" is the key and I agree. It's not so much it "strikes a nerve with me" as I simply don't and haven't been able to understand the opposition's resolve in a simple choice of an archery weapon during an open to the public archery season.

Also that fighting for an archery weapon in archery season "somehow" and "magically" "opens the doors to guns also being accepted as the same"...it simply doesn't make sense to ME......guns have far more range , don't use arrows or broadheads and go BOOM......crossbows belong.....guns simply do not! 

I do agree with a great deal of what you've said the data does however prove NOT only "crossovers" from the gun hunting ranks but many NEW hunters......that's simply a fact, however you have made a VERY valid point in that gun hunters outnumber us and to a large degree. 

One thing that DOES "strike a nerve with me", is how some anti crossbow folks bring up the gun hunters and crossovers as IF that is somehow a bad thing.
Fred Bear when FIGHTING for an archery only season USED the "two season hunter" (gun hunters being drawn to the archery season).. to sell states ON that season, NOW some seem to act like it's a bad thing????

Not to mention the terms some use to "describe" those "crossover gun hunters" with, NOT very appealing, and it's foolish,short-sighted and counter-productive in my view to upset and name call OUR largest group......gun hunters!



> If they were coming off the football stands to the woods...I might jump ship and support your side; but there is no evidence to that fact.


There IS plenty to prove it, even in a nationwide hunter number's decline environment..........real data to support that fact. NEW hunters (not only new to archery but increases in TOTAL hunter's numbers, thus they're not crossover gun hunters who have already been counted).


See, my "stance" and what I'm really all about is unity and sharing among OUR own kind.
A crossbow hunter is just as much an archery hunter as a compound hunter is in MY view. To have some Dictate that one should be allowed to hunt the archery season and the other can not is counter-productive in my view for OUR very future! Maybe MY view is wrong but after seeing decades of data I fail to see where. With identical harvest and hunter success rates; the data supports MY stance....

Thank you for the compliments, I don't take this personal (even if it may seem sometimes I do, it's harder to convey emotions etc in written form)

I'd BET we (not just you and I , but MOST here) agree on Many more things than we don't. This one issue , being what it is, in the end is about choice and opportunity for ARCHERY hunters (not gun hunters using guns in archery)....but the reality IS: if WE (archery hunters) continue to lose numbers and NOT work toward recruitment and retention (even IF many come from gun hunters, chess players or where) WE risk losing an archery only season........I'm not wanting to see that happen....I'd much rather share with crossbow hunters (of which I'm not one btw) than LOSE it altogether.....I only hope that makes sense.


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## aceoky

rattus58 said:


> Hi ACE.....
> 
> I'm not 100% certain of this, but I think that the preponderance of tax dollars distributed by PR today come from range shooters, combat schools, cowboy action shooters and clubs like ours that have competitions every single weekend. We as hunters are of course part of the makeup of the overall groups that are paying into these various funds from our purchases of archery and firearms equipment.
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


That may well be true rattus58, I don't know for sure so I'll refrain from "guessing" . Still I can't think of one state that doesn't need or wouldn't welcome more Federal P-R funds from crossbow sales, accessories, tags, permits etc.

Declining hunter's numbers nationwide mean they MUST look to replace lost revenue whenever possible without harming the resources (guns in archery WOULD in most states harm the resources, crossbows haven't anywhere and won't due to the very nature of archery hunting.....)


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## rattus58

Hi Ace... 

I'm sure that ANY game department would love to have more money from ANY source.... 

Aloha... Tom


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## Stringwacker

rattus58 said:


> Hi Stringwacker....  :beer:
> 
> One last comment from MY PERSPECTIVE. You said "The course of action we have taken is the express upon state authorities that we LOVE the seasons the way they are and we aren't asking anybody for anything. We are happy and content. They seem to appreciate that fact. It's the *"agents of change" *that are creating issues and resentment. We do oppose efforts of others to include different weapon types in the archery seasons as the precident of accepting different non-bow weapon seems just to lead to more "me too" arguments".
> 
> I agree with you that it is or are the "agents of change" that create the issue, but I'm not sure that they are creating the resentment and animosity. Never mind for the moment that crossbow shooters consider themselves a bonafide member of the archery community. Never mind for a minute that crossbows have the "historical" advantage over the the compound. Never mind that it was the words of definition by a couple of individuals who created the division of crossbow from archery a few years ago, but lets focus on just one issue... the freedom of choice.
> 
> Would you allow an Atlatl or spear or knife in the archery season?... Ok... maybe knife is a little stretch.. but would you allow the other two into archery only? Here in Hawaii, we solved that problem many years ago by making them legal in any season not specifically denoted as "only". For example, you can hunt with a bow in the muzzleloader season. You can hunt with a spear in any season not said to be "archery only" for example... I'm not sure about the atlatl since it is a launched projectile.
> 
> The issue is created because people asked for "special" seasons in the first place. When you have hunting seasons that for whatever reason are only so long, you have to divvy up time or areas. These are "special" seasons created to satisfy special interests. When you have a hunting community that pays for the benefit of wildlife and by extension through the license tags and fees, the departments that oversee these events, those that pay for tags and fees have a voice; a legitimate voice.
> 
> That people fought for "special treatment" is fine and dandy, we did it here in Hawaii as well, but when other legitimate users ask for inclusion you cannot say that they are fostering resentment and animosity. They have a right to ask. They have a right to debate. They have a right to a vote. When you say resentment over others asking to enjoy a "special" season, that season was initially set aside from the "general" season to accommodate the interest. Why is it that when someone wants inclusion to that season or any season, where none other exists, is that interest the one fostering resentment? It is the "special season" owners that I have seen so far being the most obnoxious in the debate.
> 
> Take the traditional muzzleloader shooters, of which I are one too... I'm ashamed to say actually, traditional muzzleloader shooters have been completely off the wall in the discussion of inline muzzleloaders being allowed in muzzleloader seasons. They, like many archery groups concerning crossbows, want the inline muzzleloader relegated to the general firearms season. I'm not going to go into the hypocrisy of that when it comes to "hi-performance" flintlocks shooting sabots and such that would be allowed in a flintlock only season, just as I'm not going to go back to the crossbow/compound debate here either, but what I'm suggesting is that when you have a "special" season, its not necessarily meant to be forever.
> 
> When the question of muzzleloaders come up, it was, hey, we are muzzleloaders, no different than you, and then the whole debate raged... but bottom line, a flintlock shooting 80 grains of powder with a 280 grain bullet is no worse off than is an inline with 80 grains of powder with a 280 grain bullet, period. Then comes the scopes, then comes the sabot, then comes the inline ignition... all of which are irrelevant... the gun shoots from the muzzle, is loaded from the muzzle, and the rest is just rhetoric. This is where the charge of being "selfish" is coming from. They are saying not in my woods because you look different, not because you are different. This seems to also be the charge in many of the archery debates I'm told.
> 
> I'm not here to push for crossbow use in archery seasons, but when the arguments are centered around the "hold" aspects of crossbows, without recognition of the same advantage to many, if not most, compounds, I don't mind entering into the debate, for the sake of the debate, for I think that this debate really needs to be undertaken BY ADULTS.
> 
> Aloha.... Tom :beer:


Tom, I really like your style of discussion...you can share a campfire with me anytime. You bring up many insightful points and I'm not sure I can address each one. Some I would need to think about.

One thing that we all have to remember is the world is not the same over. I grew up in a state that allows 4 months of either sex gun season and 6 weeks of "bow and arrow" (that's how the law actually reads...no mention of "archery") It's really hard for someone to say that anyone gets short changed in the opportunity to hunt in Mississippi, so my personal experiances that formed my beliefs are probably going to be different than yours or a fellow from Ohio who has a week of gun season and watches archers enjoy a 3 month season. 

To be more specific; does any one "really" get excluded in the opportunity to hunt a special season.....or is it just their "personal" preference to hunt with a certain type of weapon that is excluded? Concerning the argument of "choice", choice is *always* provided to the individual to participate in a special season...but that choice doesn't carry over to individual weapon selection. As long as there are special seasons, there will always be people who are going to say that the barriers are unfair; that he (she) can't take their 30-06 and hunt October. Around my parts...people quickly point out that a dead deer is a dead deer; so does it really matter how it's taken? It's a scary premise and I'm afraid that the crossbow debate walks a really fine line between advocating choice...and at the same time denying it to others who want to use a firearm. I'll agree that this is America and "agents of change" can rightfully make a case for anything....but if you want to *change* something that others feels infringes (perceived or otherwise) upon thier enjoyment; it's going to create a firestorm of rage and resentment. Our only response is often to tell the other side that....their selfish. That really shows them! (lol) I'll have to conceed that selfish (or not) is determined by your perspective more than the other fellows actions. It goes both ways...that's what my wife says!

Concerning spears and whatever...we actually have a few folks that uses spears here in the state during archery season. I use to know a guy that was all he hunted with. I think it's generally percieved that as long as the weapon is less effective than the "only" season that is in effect...no big deal. In the gun season you can use anything at all; in primitive weapon season (they had to quit calling it muzzleloader when centerfire rifles became legal) you can use black powder or bow. Tom, I really wish you would study the precident and case history of Mississippi's primitive weapon season. It wasn't the biological issues that brought centerfires to the "only" season...it was the "user" expectations of never quite being satisfied with the barriers and asking for more lattitude until there was nothing left to be a barrier. I've heard of quite a few die hard traditionalist quitting hunting because their "special" time and enjoyment has been compromised (in their way of thinking) I hear the state of Alabama is considering the same change.

Last of my rambling thoughts that were originally designed to comment on your thoughts.....(lol)

Special seasons have the most value when everyone has a special time to hunt in an enviroment that they find enjoyable. I call it the goal of fair and equal season allocation. Certainly every state has to be different, but I'm sure that 99% of them created special archery seasons in the late 40's and 50's that were "in addition to" the status qou firearm season. It was a bonus opportunity that no one was asked to give up, share, or otherwise. Virgin hunting opportunity was carved out of the vastness of nothing and game departments liked the idea of more people hunting with a biologically freindly weapon (less harvest). It was the perfect era for bow and arrow growth. Fred Bear advocated "be a two season" hunter and inspired a generation of archers. All of this happened way before 1969. It's just an opinion on my part...but I think that crossbows got left behind during the archery only season formations simply because they were not part of AMERICAN history and didn't have a historical sport usage here. In Europe, things would have probably gone different.

The difference is that if crossbow proponents had lobbied for their own seperate seasons as bowhunters had...there would be very little political fall out. But since the bow seasons were already in place and in many cases the biological bookends weren't likely to be moved out to accomodate another special user group...crossbow proponents went after inclusion in bow and arrow seasons armed with the knowledge that states would create special licenses to capitalize on the growth. I guess that's pretty much where we are today.

Do things change?...sure. Do they "have to" change?...not neccessarily. It all depends on what users want and all the other stuff is just window dressing.

Sorry to ramble...I've been told that brevity is not my strong suit.


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## Stringwacker

aceoky,

Didn't see your post until after I had submitted mine...amazing that we both brought up the reference of Fred Bears "be a two season hunter" idea. It just shows that the mentalities can't be that far apart.

I 100% agree that we (anti's as you call them in this case) can be our worst own enemy. For the record, crossbow hunters aren't lazy, they aren't selfish, etc. 99% of them just see a new opportunity to add a few days to their hunting season in a way that they don't find objectionable; so what's wrong with that?

The battle of ideas, words and whatever is being fought among the leaders of both camps. Pleasantries have been far and few between on both sides...understandable to a degree; I guess given the stakes that both sides believe are in play.

I really would like to see any survey that that says new hunters overall are being brought into hunting. That's not to call your hand in anyway....I just can't recall seeing one that indicated that. I would love to add it to my collection of crossbow information.

I have been so wrap up in Mississippi politics for so many years....maybe I just think becuase I've seen things happen in the past...that it will happen again. Case in point...I lead a 12 year effort to re-establish a late archery season that had originally been awarded to archers...then opened to black powder users after their howling of protest for not being included. The state ran the season for 3 years with the combined archery/blackpowder format and then cancelled it do to biological concerns (too much harvest). Starting that year WE became the aggressor and started asking for it back. We were treated ugly and given no respect for our efforts. 12 years later we got it back again...only to see muzzleloaders again go into the season 5 years later. Eventually, the bow season wa shortned two weeks to create another muzzleloader season that runs into February.

The bottom line was that the concept of a late season that was a state bow season project was so popular that not only was the season compromised by user desire...but archery season in the southern part of the state was shortened to pave it's extension. Be careful what you ask for.

That's why I'm a believer of "progession". What you put in place today will have future implications; but we have no idea what those things will be.

Later...
Mark


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## aceoky

> What you put in place today will have future implications; but we have no idea what those things will be.


Ahhh , but we do Mark. With all due respect, we can use your own example of Ohio. 

After three decades of crossbow inclusion the archery season has not been "shortened" but last year in fact Ohio gained days for both archery and gun seasons. Ohio has had record harvests the last three years! 

I'm certain I don't need to mention the "record book bucks" from Ohio to anyone here........

Also Ohio is not experiencing the rapid decline in hunter's number that most other states ARE having to face and deal with! 

Crossbow inclusion is proven thus to be a "positive" and not any of the things the "other side" of this one issue tries in vain to claim......that is the way it is in reality. 

Also Mark, please check your PM box.


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## rattus58

Hi Stringwacker...  :beer:

I'm curious... If you had to argue, were paid to argue, decided that you oh so loved the crossbow you wanted it to have its own season, but the best you could do would be to get it into the archery only season, ... I'm baiting here obviously.... :wink: What arguments would you use to argue the inclusion of the crossbow into the archery only season?

I'm buying beer and popcorn....  :grin:


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## Stringwacker

I got the PM...responded to you back. Thanks for the info.


Lets talk about this Ohio thing just a second. It seems to be the crowning success story of crossbow intervention. No real downside other than a few folks still arguing about it. It seems like a clear case winner fro the crossbow cause.......

Yet....just for the sake of an honest debate, Is it really fair to compared the known outcome of a state like Ohio vs an unknown outcome in a state like Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia etc? How sure can we determine it's applicablity?

The reason I float the question for discussion is that I've tried really hard in the last few post to stress that "user desire" is the catalyst for change....particulary in the situation where the biological bookends of a restrictive season harvest has been removed or diminished. Where a restricted harvest is required, the effects of "user desire" is greatly supressed. Ohio just to generalize, has an extremely short gun season (indicates the need for greater harvest control) yet a very long archery season (restrictive harvest method that allows more people to hunt with a minimal biological impact). I'm just saying that the bookends can be assumed to be very solid in Ohio and no matter what "user desire" wants (a 2 month gun season for example) they aren't going to get it. There are forces in play that prohibit it from a biological stand point. Crossbows as long as the harvest data is acceptable is there to stay with little downside...until the herd dynamics change (if ever)

On the other hand, in Mississippi we have a FOUR MONTH gun season with an EITHER SEX opportunity the entire time and NO TAGS are used. Only a 6 week archery season exist so it's pretty clear that "user desire" has a huge foothold as no real biological harvest restraints are needed. The state is talking about a one season pick your weapon format for the future to simplify everything...so naturally the state wildlife agency want crossbows in the season...and primitive weapons...and firearms. It doesn't matter to them because anything that curtails restrictive harvest seasons works to their benefit of their need for a greater harvest. They explain that the season already runs from October to Mid-February so merely adding more days is out of the question as earlier dates than October interfere with fawning and later dates interfere with turkey season. So what do they want?....even more harvest in the traditional season frameworks.

I'll set my self up for the sucker punch...it would seem that crossbow legalization within the archery season might be a good thing....maybe it will increase the harvest...right? Yet, they want FAR more than what the crossbow can do. My perpective, right or wrong is that ANY introduction of new weapon groups within the archery season just greases the skids and sets the "user desire" element for more expectation....just like what happen with the "primitive weapon" season here. Archery season only exist because there are people who still want it....if their expectation changes...something else will take it's place.

The scary part is that I feel that with expanding deer herds and falling hunter numbers...that all states will get to this delima in due time. It may be next year for Mississippi due to it's herd dynamics....on the other hand it may take 50 years for Ohio given "their" herd dynamics.

All this to say, I'm fairly certain that it's an apple/orange comparison to compare a state like Ohio vs a state like Mississippi....or any other state that has similar issues (most southeastern states to one degree or the other)

I'll say again...I don't think this national debate is about the crossbow. I think it's about special season survival.


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## Stringwacker

rattus58 said:


> Hi Stringwacker...  :beer:
> 
> I'm curious... If you had to argue, were paid to argue, decided that you oh so loved the crossbow you wanted it to have its own season, but the best you could do would be to get it into the archery only season, ... I'm baiting here obviously.... :wink: What arguments would you use to argue the inclusion of the crossbow into the archery only season?
> 
> I'm buying beer and popcorn....  :grin:


I would use pretty much the same arguments that are being used. 

In the short term more people hunt in the archery season and additional license sales are generated (always thought it was funny that the state never let's you hunt with just a regular archery license upon it's introduction)

I would probably add that economic commerce would be enhanced as sales tax revenues would be generated and business support infrastructure would be created to satisfy the demand. Politically...anything that helps business is looked upon as a good thing by government.

I would save all the equipment comparison debates for forums such as this to pass time. Business and political leaders don't know the difference beween the two regardless...and any discussion about the hard way vs easy way always gets a blank stare...they can't relate to either argument...they aren't likely hunters so how would they know?

Lastly, never ever show disrespect to them or others in the room that may not share your view point. Being told no doesn't mean anything except "not today" With the proper respect given to the regulatory authority...you live to fight another day.

It's all politics....

All fairs in war and politics...so what would your argument be against the crossbow in the archery season. I played fair...your turn. (lol)


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## aceoky

> I'll say again...I don't think this national debate is about the crossbow. I think it's about special season survival


I can agree with that to a point at least. Where we differ is that I realize that with hunter's numbers falling at a rapid pace (and in many states archery hunters the fastest of all) will there be ANY need for any archery only season "down the road"??? Fewer hunters (of any type) will have a negative impact on harvest rates........they'll usually harvest fewer deer (not what is needed in most states as we well know) Also once archery hunter's numbers decline to a "certain point" WHO will fight for an archery only season??

See? That is why I firmly am convinced that crossbow inclusion is a "win-win", it offers the choice of that archery weapon to those who wish to use it, adds to our numbers, helping to insure our future,
IF there are any real negatives, they have yet to be proven by ANY data that I've seen in over a decade of researching this topic. I don't even use one (never have), but I fail to see them as any threat and certainly not to the extent some want to make us think they will be.

Increasing deer herds, and declining hunter's numbers are a very dangerous combination for archery hunters and what we all LOVE.......it's up to US to recruit and retain our own......crossbows do that, there can be no doubt about that. Yet I fail to see any argument of why some don't want them that has merit......In MY OPINION , it's some are afraid of change, some don't want to share what they don't even own, and none of that is good for our image OR our future as far as I can tell.

Happy to give you that more in your PM box btw.


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## rattus58

Hi Stringwalker.... :beer: 

"user desires" is a concept I've not had expressed like that before, and it certainly is sensible. Hard to add new seasons if you only have three days you're able to hunt... 

Just got off the phone with one of the Archery Clubs. We're going to be meeting with them next... hope I come out of this with my scalp.... 

Aloha... Tom  :beer: :darkbeer:


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## aceoky

> Just got off the phone with one of the Archery Clubs. We're going to be meeting with them next... hope I come out of this with my scalp....


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## rattus58

Stringwacker said:


> I It's all politics....
> 
> All fairs in war and politics...so what would your argument be against the crossbow in the archery season. I played fair...your turn. (lol)



I think that to start, depending on the state I was in, I'd actually use your analysis of the user's desires versus the animals available first. If harvests are being restricted already, I think that I would start there and suggest that we cannot extend the number of "hunterdays" in the field. This is assuming that the hunter numbers with archery equipment would increase with the introduction of the crossbow. I'd like to make sure that there wasn't a host of closeted crossbowers out there before I made that argument however to elilminate the crossover embarrassment.

I'd argue the point that the NFAA and NBEF did not address the crossbow for Archery Seasons but that I felt that crossbows have a rightful place for hunting in our state. Since we (this could be weak) are "archers" by NFAA and NBEF lets give the crossbows their own season before or after ours or whatever makes sense, and let them be legal in all other seasons as well.

I think I'd try to argue that they deserve their own season. I'd also at the same time, suggest that if one was going to be hunting with a crossbow, at least for the first few years, say 5, that they couldn't also go hunting with an archery tag and vice versa. I'd like to collect the data. It just might be, that there is room for both crossbow and Compound in the archery seasons together, but lets find out first by giving them their own season.

Here in Hawaii, with 365 days of hunting in some places that are archery only, I'd argue to allow crossbows in those areas and their own special seasons and keep them from archery only seasons. The conundrum comes from limited time in specific areas to allow hunting and to then accomodate all hunters their special season. I'd actually argue that archers and muzzleloaders give up maybe one or two days each to accomodate a crossbow only or argue to allow crossbows with muzzleloaders, but restrict the hunters to a lottery or first come first served finite number to keep traffic down in limited hunting areas (we do this in Hawaii quite frequently actually).

Not having thought about this from that side, I may be somewhat incoherent about it, but if I was keeping them out of archery only... that's I think how I'd at least approach it initially till I got better at it... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## rattus58

aceoky said:


>


:grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Stringwacker

aceoky said:


> I can agree with that to a point at least. Where we differ is that I realize that with hunter's numbers falling at a rapid pace (and in many states archery hunters the fastest of all) will there be ANY need for any archery only season "down the road"??? Fewer hunters (of any type) will have a negative impact on harvest rates........they'll usually harvest fewer deer (not what is needed in most states as we well know) Also once archery hunter's numbers decline to a "certain point" WHO will fight for an archery only season??
> 
> See? That is why I firmly am convinced that crossbow inclusion is a "win-win", it offers the choice of that archery weapon to those who wish to use it, adds to our numbers, helping to insure our future,
> IF there are any real negatives, they have yet to be proven by ANY data that I've seen in over a decade of researching this topic. I don't even use one (never have), but I fail to see them as any threat and certainly not to the extent some want to make us think they will be.
> 
> Increasing deer herds, and declining hunter's numbers are a very dangerous combination for archery hunters and what we all LOVE.......it's up to US to recruit and retain our own......crossbows do that, there can be no doubt about that. Yet I fail to see any argument of why some don't want them that has merit......In MY OPINION , it's some are afraid of change, some don't want to share what they don't even own, and none of that is good for our image OR our future as far as I can tell.
> 
> Happy to give you that more in your PM box btw.


Well it's good to see that we both see the problem as exactly the same. The potential collapse of special season structures.... brought forth by the need of increased harvest due to declining hunter numbers and expanding herds. Who would have ever thought? Do you think that Fred Bear could have ever got modern bowhunting started if this was what he had to face in the 50's and 60's? We probably would have never heard of Fred Bear and you and I would have been thrilled hunting with the "'ought 6" instead of excersizing a few brain cells with a crossbow discussion Actually, I've enjoyed it.

It's nice to boil it all down....

1) Is it better to legalize crossbows and encourage crossover firearm users to join the fray; with the expectation that they will help preserve the archery season structure or... 2) does the political precident that it establishes (crossbow legalization) and the increased "user desire" expectation of barrier elimination hasten the season's demise? I honestly think it could go either way...even going as far as saying that it could work for one state on the first premise; the second premise on another one.

If one was pessimist, it could said that the struggle is a game of attrition; with the winner only being labled a winner...by reason of keeping the archery season in play the longest.

I guess I side with premise 2 only because of my legislative experiance and seeing how people react to change. Human nature says when hunters get something legalized....they want the next thing legalized that is closest to it. The game never ends, never stops, never finds a ending point.

I noticed that you are part of a crossbow organization. You ever notice how only an extremely small percentage of folks ever care to join....to make their voice heard? Doesn't matter if it's the state bowhunters association, the Crossbow Federation, or the local bass club. Most people just don't care. That why I like your passion... at least you share your convictions and belief. The point I'm making is I'm not sure there are enough bowhunters and crossover hunters to make a difference against a larger firearm group who demands change...once biological parameters will allow it.


And with that....I have to call it a night!
Later
Mark


----------



## Stringwacker

rattus58 said:


> I think that to start, depending on the state I was in, I'd actually use your analysis of the user's desires versus the animals available first. If harvests are being restricted already, I think that I would start there and suggest that we cannot extend the number of "hunterdays" in the field. This is assuming that the hunter numbers with archery equipment would increase with the introduction of the crossbow. I'd like to make sure that there wasn't a host of closeted crossbowers out there before I made that argument however to elilminate the crossover embarrassment.
> 
> I'd argue the point that the NFAA and NBEF did not address the crossbow for Archery Seasons but that I felt that crossbows have a rightful place for hunting in our state. Since we (this could be weak) are "archers" by NFAA and NBEF lets give the crossbows their own season before or after ours or whatever makes sense, and let them be legal in all other seasons as well.
> 
> I think I'd try to argue that they deserve their own season. I'd also at the same time, suggest that if one was going to be hunting with a crossbow, at least for the first few years, say 5, that they couldn't also go hunting with an archery tag and vice versa. I'd like to collect the data. It just might be, that there is room for both crossbow and Compound in the archery seasons together, but lets find out first by giving them their own season.
> 
> Here in Hawaii, with 365 days of hunting in some places that are archery only, I'd argue to allow crossbows in those areas and their own special seasons and keep them from archery only seasons. The conundrum comes from limited time in specific areas to allow hunting and to then accomodate all hunters their special season. I'd actually argue that archers and muzzleloaders give up maybe one or two days each to accomodate a crossbow only or argue to allow crossbows with muzzleloaders, but restrict the hunters to a lottery or first come first served finite number to keep traffic down in limited hunting areas (we do this in Hawaii quite frequently actually).
> 
> Not having thought about this from that side, I may be somewhat incoherent about it, but if I was keeping them out of archery only... that's I think how I'd at least approach it initially till I got better at it...
> 
> Aloha...  :beer:


Okay I lied...I see where Rattus58 was a good sport and played the game. (If only I could get aceoky to play!) How can I leave that until the am?

Interesting strategy as you made the case for allowing crossbows while at the same time developed a spin that kept them out of the archery season. It's not an approach that many folks would think of. I hope you don't hold it against me if I file a few of those ideas away....you never know!

This time I'm really telling the truth...I'm turning in.
Later
Mark


----------



## Jim C

There is no logical reason to separate crossbows from compound bows


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## rattus58

Jim C said:


> There is no logical reason to separate crossbows from compound bows


:grin: :grin: :grin:


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## rattus58

Stringwacker said:


> I hope you don't hold it against me if I file a few of those ideas away....you never know! This time I'm really telling the truth...I'm turning in.
> Later
> Mark


Use away.....  This is a chess game anyways and just cuz one may be on one side of the fence don't mean he can't be admiring what we got on the other side... :grin::grin::grin:


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## rattus58

*PBS and Crossbows*

I've recently received some corresponse from PBS and since they decided to send my emails all over the place, I thought I'd publish them here. From Mark L. Scott PBS Anti-Crossbow Committee Chair.


Tom,

Thanks for explaining the Sunrise Archery. Sorry you could not continue that business but was able to continue another way.

I need to ask you to explain Disabled Law enacted illegally here in Hawaii as I am unfamiliar with it.

There are several scientific tests that were done by engineers, Norb Malaney and Roy Marlow. Both men did separate tests in a range of categories. Being such as ease of use, range, kinetic energy, mechanical advantages, etc... I encourage you to take a look, interesting.

In direct comparison to the compound, it is hand held and hand drawn, the body is the shooting platform. The crossbow is drawn with some type of mechanical advantage has there are not too many people the can draw 100+ lbs and surely wouldn't be able to "hold" it to aim, it would be difficult for a person using a 100+ lb compound to hold at full draw. The shooting platform is not the body of the archer but the stock like a firearm.

Since our last e-mail I have had a chance to review PBS Code of Ethics and Equipment Policy Statements as you had wrote below
" if you support the use of 4 power optics, bow mounted laser
> rangefinders, wrist mounted trigger releases, with 80% let off, overdraws,
> and ibo speeds today that are bragged to be 350 fps.. (PSE X-
>
> Force) and yet you lobby vociferously against the cross-bow makes you
> hypocrites."

PBS's policy states

"A member of the Professional Bowhunters Society will not hunt or pursue game with any bow capable of more then 65% let-off"

also under Electronic Devices

Members of the Professional Bowhunters Society will not use electronic technology in the pursuit of big game.

So I'm not sure where you got your information from. I will look at the Australian infor as I know I have an ad from one of the manufactures boosting a 500 fps model.

I don't believe the one handed shooting of mine is a total obfuscation. For instance they do make a shooting rest for crossbows and bi-pod as well. They don't make them for target shooting.

In conversations with the Archery Trade Association (ATA), even some of their members say it is not a bow but not a gun.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do appreciate your concerns for the outdoor sports and wish you well.

MLS

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply. I don’t mind agreeing to disagree. I don’t let politics stand in the way of professionalism or friendship.

I understand the PBS Code of ethics, however, that is not what is practiced in the field, and I’m not sure that I even agree with the PBS on a couple points of their code. I also don’t dispute your theoretical potential of a crossbow. I just suggest that it isn’t mainstream crossbow use today, and isn’t ever likely to be. 

You surely can’t be comparing a 100 pound draw crossbow with a 100 lb compound are you? If you have really studied the facts, you wouldn’t even bring that up. The crossbows short limbs do not allow for a long enough power stroke to cast an equal arrow at the same weights as a longbow or recurve, and therefore have to be considerably heavier in order to cast the arrow at the same velocities.

I wish you all would consider the facts rather than the theoretical. Norb Mullaney is a respected engineer, and in the past I have read many of his published tests on different bows, one of my most looked forward to readings in fact, and he in fact does belong in the Archery Hall of fame. However, I have not read any of his musings on a crossbow, and so I am not able to comment on anything you might say of his testing. Testing of a crossbow doesn’t in any way, however change the facts.

A crossbow is a bow. How can anyone refute that? The Chinese used a hollow tube filled with powder to shoot a projectile. When they attached a stick to it, it was still a hollow tube filled with powder only now on a stick. This is the plight of the crossbow…  You like to make much of the stock of a crossbow, the fact that you might (though I know of no one who professes such except you) shoot it with one hand, and it can hold full draw. Here are the facts as I see them…

60 pound recurve = holding weight of 60 pounds ( with the felt holding weight increasing by each second you hold beyond normal shooting sequence… approx 2-3 seconds). 
60 pound compound = 21 pound holding weight (PBS) to 12 pounds or less in the real world. Holding time 1-2 minutes or longer
150 pound crossbow = 0 pound holding weight.

Power for crossbow comes directly from a typical bow with short powerful limbs to compensate for the short powerstroke.
So what is the main ingredient for hunting? Casting an arrow. Typically, a recurve casts an arrow at about 160 to 185 fps. A compound bow from 205 to 245 traditionally under AMO guidelines. Crossbows typically are from 225 to 245. As you go up in crossbow weight, speeds clime to 350 fps with a 200 pound plus crossbow.. Bows like the PSE X-force, the Alpine Bows, Darton, Mathews… all advertise IBO speeds from 320 to 350, exactly the same as the crossbow. 

You talk of Norb Mullaney testing for things such as “Being such as ease of use, range, kinetic energy, mechanical advantages, etc” red herring.

Ease of use. Drawing a 60-70 pound compound, for those that would use one, is not difficult. Holding at the typical 80% standard letoff for most bow manufacturers is a mere 12-14 pounds. How difficult is that? Compared to a recurve, you’d have to say that the ease of use for the compound is broadly superior.

Kinetic energy is a function of arrow speed. Crossbows typically have kinetic values of between 53 and 93 pounds. Compounds at IBO speeds and typical weights are going to be around 82 pounds. How about the recurve? Take my 66 pound Hoyt… or my 80 pound canebreak better… 185 fps… with a heavy wooden arrow and 145 snuffer is roughly approaching 60 pounds. You can fly right through a deer with broadhead with 30 pounds of kinetic energy so what exactly is the point here anyway? Its almost irrelevant to normal shooting situations. If anything is relevant, it might be trajectory, and that is related to speed and drag, and the differences between crossbow and compound are negligible.

Mechanical advantage? Taking the recurve at 60 pounds, you hold 60 pounds and each second it seems to get heavier. 60 pound compound… 12-21 pounds. Is there an advantage with the compound bow over the recurve? Absolutely. Is there mechanical advantage of the crossbow? Of course, there is no holding weight at all. But now lets compare that in the real world. 

A deer is spotted from a tree stand, which I’m told is the most popular way to hunt deer in the US, that and hunting blinds. This means that the hunter is either hidden from the deer and his movement is masked, or he is at altitude that allows for opportunity to draw. I’m told, and I’ve seen it on the Outdoor channel and I hunt myself with a bow, you draw when you can. Most of us get that opportunity, so to say a crossbow has advantage is obfuscation. You have to raise a crossbow in real life when you are out in the open just as you’d have to draw. This is not a really salient argument. If drawing was an issue, there’d be no harvests. In a blind, the discussion is really not worthy of mention, the differences would be nil. But drawing and holding, getting back to the compound, is effortless with a compound and can be held for minutes on end. In this the compound is no different than the crossbow. You can wait at full draw for the right shot, much easier than you can with the recurve or long bow, who are at serious disadvantage to compound.

When it comes to range, most hunters are shooting game at 15 to 35 yards. This is the real world expectation of a responsible hunter. Crossbow hunters are no different, and if you get back on the outdoor channel and their archery programs… you find caribou shots of 50 to 70 yards being televised with the compound. This clearly diminishes the argument doesn’t it. Then you get guys like Keith Warren stating that today’s compound is capable of harvesting game at well over 50 yards and to practice, practice, practice, further obliterates the argument. Crossbow hunters that I have discussed this issue with all say that they hunt at much less than 60 yards. At the least, I’d say that neither compound nor crossbow have advantage to give you all the benefit of the doubt.

The functional reality is that a crossbow is so similar to a compound that it is difficult for an outsider, like myself, to understand how there is distinction between them for HUNTING. What matters really is what happens when the trigger is pulled, whether compound trigger or crossbow trigger. At that point there is absolutely no difference between them, and in the harvest of game, that is all that matters.

As a matter of fact, when you hear all the rhetoric from organizations such as those you mention about how much of a disadvantage you are to the crossbow, thats when people start to analyze your protestations. I for one, and many others that I’ve presented a compound-crossbow table to comparing them to the recurve find that for compound shooters to be protesting the crossbow is pretty disingenuous, for all that they complain about the crossbow, is true for us who shoot the recurve and longbow, so where is the balance there? Personally I find it difficult to accept your argument keeping the crossbow out of archery seasons when compared to us, there really is little to nothing to distinguish them from each other.

I also find that an organization of bowhunters to have an “anti” committee against another legitimate archery method to not only be disturbing, is shows a lack of positive perspective, and probably fosters the negative outlook your members seem to have against crossbows. If I was a member of your organization, I would actually lobby you to be in support of crossbows and to encourage their entry into the bow seasons. We need unity in the hunting community and to single out anything and have an organization that is supposed to represent ethical bowhunters have an “anti-crossbow” committee I personally think is a tragic statement.

Much Aloha,

TomLodge


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## aceoky

> (always thought it was funny that the state never let's you hunt with just a regular archery license upon it's introduction)


Actually both Ky and Tennessee did allow crossbow hunters without any special tags.........fwiw (however that creates another "problem" in no one knows how many NEW hunters or even new to archery hunters join in, one good reason for another tag,permit or whatever ......)

Our "crossbow organization" only appeared after Ky had passed crossbow inclusion and the "bow clubs" used every "dirty trick" on this planet to try to reverse it (and actually did to some small degree) . Actually the KDFWR (our "DNR") passed crossbow inclusion TWICE to only have them still fight it, KNOWING the vast majority of Ky sportsmen and women supported it....only a small minority opposed it. 

WE (Ky sportsmen/women) paid Cornell (who had done a similar survey in NY that was found the results were not for crossbows....) over $70,000 for an independent survey, to find out the facts (asked for the anti crossbow crowd no less, who agreed to accept this survey's results.......but wouldn't after the results became known.....) It was found that even MOST "bow hunters" supported it in Ky and thought it would aid in recruitment and retention ( I have ALL the proof btw).......So long story short that is why the UCBK exists to offer another voice besides the two bow clubs who tried to dictate to the majority.......

Tom..............Excellent points made, "busting" most (if not all) of the PBS myths! Kudos to you for your research and the way you present it all! A job VERY well done IMHO


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## aceoky

Jim C said:


> There is no logical reason to separate crossbows from compound bows



EXACTLY! And THAT is where the "rubber meets the road"....

Also that is even more true in NY for the disabled! Despite their absurd laws that stand now and need to be changed ASAP........and would have been long ago if not for the downright misinformation being spewed by PBS , NABC etc.etc.etc.

Facts will "win out' however, it's only a matter of time.


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## rattus58

Hi ACE..... :beer:

Thank you for your kind words.

There is so much to refute to the PBS and the rest that you cannot get it all in one letter to them... but do you notice that his response to me was that PBS does not support bows CAPABLE of more than 65% Letoff, yet they are silent on the fact that if not all bows shipped are 80% letoff capable, most certainly are. Not only is that an arbritrary number, it is unenforceable and pointless. 

Aloha....  :beer:


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## aceoky

Hi rattus58, you're welcome, I call them as I see them!

Yes I know, and the reality is they(PBS,NABC etc) don't care about truth, facts or data, only their agenda of keeping one legitimate archery weapon from being allowed. Again , I honestly hope you'll check out those "reports" they mentioned, I think you'll clearly see what is "what" .....:cocktail:

I find it "interesting" they (along with P&Y before they added the " * ") see 65% let off "equal" with recurves and long bows........with 0% let off! As if somehow 65% let off is not a true advantage in holding.........well then , IF that's the case then 100% let off (crossbows) isn't either! 

WE all know it is, 65%-80%, 90%-100% is an advantage, but so what? IT brings more archery hunters onboard and makes OUR numbers stronger, why oppose ANY of that? Those very groups "claim" (or to be more accurate TRY to claim) that "crossbows are the biggest threat to archery seasons bar none".......I'm quite sure they are aware of PETA, HSUS and many other groups that have targeted archery hunting as "job one" . And with MILLIONS of $$$$ devoted to that goal, I think most are aware THEY are the number one threat to ALL hunting/fishing/trapping........crossbow hunters and/or inclusion are not a risk at all! Just fellow hunters wanting to choose their own weapon (not have that dictated by ANY bow clubs) for themselves.....

Had the bow clubs welcomed them with "open arms" rather than spreading "tons" of misinformation and downright proven falsehoods, WE would have had NO division and they as well as WE would have had a much stronger united voice! Now that is very unlikely, while they will help archery hunters, NO reason for them to help these "bow clubs" who have brought that upon themselves by their very tactics ...sad regrettable and easily avoided.....


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## rattus58

I think that now is a good time to remind people of this again. I see this as an opportunity for traditional archers to rally with crossbow hunters for inclusion into archery seasons, I mean after, do unto others.... :grin:

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Jim C

Hunting in general and bowhunting in particular would be better off if the PBS never existed.


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## rattus58

I agree... and I just fired off an email to the NABC a few seconds ago too... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## aceoky

Jim C said:


> Hunting in general and bowhunting in particular would be better off if the PBS never existed.


Case in point........notice this pure falsehood......



> A crossbow in the archery seasons would no longer allow us to classify the season as “primitive”.


A compound IS "traditional" and a several thousand year old crossbow isn't???

Just one of hundreds of such instances where they TRY to support a "stance" that will never be supported once people learn what a crossbow IS (and is not)...

These groups (and their misinformation) are responsible for at least 99% of the "divisions and infighting" and don't see what they are doing to OUR sport??? Crossbows aren't the "biggest threat"(OR any threat at all) , ANTI hunters (HSUS, etc) ARE, these 'groups" are a close second .......


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## Jim C

It is too bad that legal action is not possible to sue those liars out of existence because they do lie. If the PBS would cease to exist it would be better for most hunters-same with Poop and Dung


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## Wyvern Creations

"A crossbow in the archery seasons would no longer allow us to classify the season as “primitive”. "


Ummm.....I REALLY dont know what to say to that....my bow is a 700 year old design made with period materials and shooting wooden bolts...
Wyvern


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## rattus58

Hey man... that's pretty slick... how you do that?

Aloha.. Tom :beer:


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## Wyvern Creations

Thats what I do (well, that and sell the modern ones and trad bows) That is the hunting legal prototype. The target ones are already in production, the hunting ones I am still tweaking the safety. Note no sites...you aim off the tip of the bolt. Even the trad guys think this is kinda cool...
Wyvern


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## rattus58

And how much would something like that for hunting be worth? Nice wood working to me.... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Guest

We had for the first time ever X-bows at our National 3-D's as a option for the host Province. I was astounded to see all the myths still running around from the other Provinces,anywhere from not being able to uncock them to accuracy levels, some even thought that a 425gr bolt at 300fps was much faster than a 425 arrow at 300fps out of a compound,after 3 days of shooting a seing the scores posted many saw the light. Those that didn't never will or chose not to


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## Jim C

Sean McKenty said:


> We had for the first time ever X-bows at our National 3-D's as a option for the host Province. I was astounded to see all the myths still running around from the other Provinces,anywhere from not being able to uncock them to accuracy levels, some even thought that a 425gr bolt at 300fps was much faster than a 425 arrow at 300fps out of a compound,after 3 days of shooting a seing the scores posted many saw the light. Those that didn't never will or chose not to



PBS defenders on this and other boards continue to claim that the Marlow report about novices with xbows outshooting professional or expert level compound archers is valid and truthful even after I posted the NFAA results which showed the greatest target xbow archer in USA history would not have placed in the top 50 of the compound envent and would have lost to dozens of other compound archers in events like Youth, ladies, Freestyle Limited, BHFS etc


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## PMantle

Jim C said:


> the same nonsense can be applied to compounds-it allows people unable or unwilling to master a trad bow or a recurve. I have forgotten more about archery than you will ever know PM and your draw lock red herring is a joke as is your facade as to what motivates your position. MOre people hunting is a GOOD THING to everyone but the selfish greedy types


What you've forgotten about archery is irrelevant, although it is quite obvious that you have forgotten a lot. No one in this debate is either selfish or greedy. No facts point to that at all. Oh, and more people hunting may be good in some areas, but may be bad in others. In la. more people hunting only benefits those looking to make a buck off them. 

Drawlock, you kee saying red herring. You obviously don't know what a red herring is. Draw lock is a brick and you're drowning slowly.

BTW, there really is no such thing as a crossbow hunter. Just a greedy gun hunter wanting more days and more meat.


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## aceoky

> BTW, there really is no such thing as a crossbow hunter. Just a greedy gun hunter wanting more days and more meat.
> __________________


100% FALSE.......

What about those hunters who don't like guns, and won't hunt with other bows,(many,many youth,women and senior hunters fit here ) "your conclusion" leaves them out of the entire picture . It's not hard to figure out why either fwiw.

I'd like all of the crossbow hunters in Ohio to read and respond to that!!! It would get interesting very quickly indeed! (not to mention Tennessee and Va crossbow hunters, and probably many others)....

Drawlocks matter not, it's not "our side" that's "drowning", your repeated use of it, proves you have VERY little else to say on the subject! 

No one honestly can believe ONLY "gun hunters" would or do use crossbows, I still can't believe anyone would state it on here!


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## aceoky

*Great shooting!*

BTW GREAT shooting Wyvern Crossbow! No sights WOW! Impressive!


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## Wyvern Creations

Thanks  That was at 20 yrds. It is very similar to shooting a trad bow using the gap shooting technique.

season starts in a few weeks...I will see how she does in the woods...
Wyvern


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## rattus58

Hey ... Wyvern.... so how much would something like that run... or did you build it yourself.... nice job either way.... 

Aloha... Tom :beer:


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## Wyvern Creations

Check out my website www.wyverncreations.com Yep, I make them. The hunting one(that one is 185lbs draw, about 200fps w/ a 435gr wooden bolt) is still in the prototyping stage (should be in production VERY soon) Should go for abouot $895.00 The target ones have no safety (very medieval) and are $439.00
Thanks  I like to think of them as a "traditional" crossbow...
David


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## rattus58

Definitely traditional.... very nice... 

Aloha... Tom :beer:


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## Jim C

PMantle said:


> What you've forgotten about archery is irrelevant, although it is quite obvious that you have forgotten a lot. No one in this debate is either selfish or greedy. No facts point to that at all. Oh, and more people hunting may be good in some areas, but may be bad in others. In la. more people hunting only benefits those looking to make a buck off them.
> 
> Drawlock, you kee saying red herring. You obviously don't know what a red herring is. Draw lock is a brick and you're drowning slowly.
> 
> BTW, there really is no such thing as a crossbow hunter. Just a greedy gun hunter wanting more days and more meat.


MOre BS-any time you want to shoot say compounds for money big guy I am your huckleberry. We will see who is the better archer. I wish all the gun hunters would read the bs people like you post.


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## PMantle

Jim C said:


> MOre BS-any time you want to shoot say compounds for money big guy I am your huckleberry. We will see who is the better archer. I wish all the gun hunters would read the bs people like you post.



Better archer? ***? I shoot at targets for hunting practice only. I see no reason to humiliate you when ability to hit a dot is irrelevant. :wink:

I'll tell any gun hunter to his face. He gets his days. If he wants mine too, he will just have to convince the legislature to agree with him and not me. Good luck.


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## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Better archer? ***? I shoot at targets for hunting practice only. I see no reason to humiliate you when ability to hit a dot is irrelevant. :wink:
> 
> I'll tell any gun hunter to his face. He gets his days. If he wants mine too, he will just have to convince the legislature to agree with him and not me. Good luck.


hOW does someone hunting with a weapon that is no different in any way that matters take time away from you? Thanks for continually proving what motivates people like you and why facts are irrelevant to your side


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## aceoky

> I'll tell any gun hunter to his face. He gets his days. If he wants mine too, he will just have to convince the legislature to agree with him and not me.


Go right ahead, they (gun hunters) outnumber archery hunters by a vast majority, and they just may take that as a challenge , especially given the "insults" they've had thrown their way by so called "real archery hunters".....

Sometimes it's much more wise to not push folks, but that is only MY opinion....fwiw :cocktail:


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## Jim C

aceoky said:


> Go right ahead, they (gun hunters) outnumber archery hunters by a vast majority, and they just may take that as a challenge , especially given the "insults" they've had thrown their way by so called "real archery hunters".....
> 
> Sometimes it's much more wise to not push folks, but that is only MY opinion....fwiw :cocktail:


since PM and the rest of his ilk put so much into the masses voting to exclude others maybe karma would be those gun hunters pressuring the F&G commissions in states where xbows are excluded to expand gun season and cut down or eliminate archery only seasons. using the "logic" of the bigots, its hard to see a 80% compound with a release as "primitive"


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## BigBirdVA

PMantle said:


> What you've forgotten about archery is irrelevant, although it is quite obvious that you have forgotten a lot. No one in this debate is either selfish or greedy. No facts point to that at all. Oh, and more people hunting may be good in some areas, but may be bad in others. In la. more people hunting only benefits those looking to make a buck off them.
> 
> Drawlock, you kee saying red herring. You obviously don't know what a red herring is. Draw lock is a brick and you're drowning slowly.
> 
> BTW, there really is no such thing as a crossbow hunter. Just a greedy gun hunter wanting more days and more meat.


Maybe you should try reading the rules before you start spewing your BS in here. They are, since you can't seem to figure it out, No debating the merits of crossbows. Should be pretty simple even for you.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=342722


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## MNmike

*that goes both ways*

I hate when people start all the name calling.


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## rattus58

Makes me laugh... that someone would argue that you cannot debate the merits of the crossbow, while "debating" the merits of the crossbow.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> Makes me laugh... that someone would argue that you cannot debate the merits of the crossbow, while "debating" the merits of the crossbow.
> 
> Aloha...  :beer:


We're not debating the merits of xbows per say, we're debating the lunacy of the NY laws on xbow use for handicapped. The no debate is to keep the same old knock down drag out debate that never ends from starting - not debate on reasonable issues that involve the word xbow. I think you know what I mean on it. When people start using words like "lazy, greedy, and slob hunters" then it goes into the same old xbow debate no one likes. I don't understand what compels people to start the hate talk in threads.


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## rattus58

I couldn't agree with you more. It that very "hate" talk that piqued my interest in crossbows to the point that I'm now an advocate... me... an off the shelf, glass and bamboo carbon limbed longbow shooter.... a presumed arch-rival/enemy of crossbows.

I've seen this behavior on behalf of muzzleloader shooters as well. The twist there was you had the "traditionalists" arguing against the crossbow, where here in the x-bow issue, you pretty much have the beneficiaries of the rules complaining most vociferously against crossbow inclusion/use for various season or in this case, for use by the disabled/disabled veteran.

Much Aloha,

Tom :beer:


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## aceoky

> I've seen this behavior on behalf of muzzleloader shooters as well. The twist there was you had the "traditionalists" arguing against the crossbow, where here in the x-bow issue, you pretty much have the beneficiaries of the rules complaining most vociferously against crossbow inclusion/use for various season or in this case, for use by the disabled/disabled veteran.


And all to the detriment of hunting and it's image! Those NY "bow groups" TRY to claim, "letting the disabled into the season with crossbows is a farce, intended to take the season"........total BS! NO one is trying to "take" anything away, and the NY laws on crossbows and the disabled only serve to show how truly foolish this can become IMO!


Pro "bowhunting groups" should be pro hunting groups, and NOT be in the "business" of doing harm to our image, nor should they ever try to dictate to the disabled on anything, and certainly not what archery weapons they should be allowed to use. They are only harming their own image in a losing battle....with a foolish stance.

Looks like in 2009 NY will make some much needed changes!


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## Mr. Burns

lol.. i.... am at a loss for words.


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## BigBirdVA

Mr. Burns said:


> lol.. i.... am at a loss for words.


Appears you're the only one ! :darkbeer:


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## nysparticus

*8 Pages and still lost*

I know this is a sensitive topic here on AT but I just spent all this time reading 8 pages of well not quite sure. Is there a debate here is there not? It seems it all comes down to the personal preference of each hunter.

I admit it i am new to hunting (3rd year) but enjoy it tremendously, enough so that I have bought a lifetime license, and want to be more involved with some of the local organizations. I will admit I am naive and need help understanding what is out there.

Does anyone have any information on if there is even a bill out there to legalize crossbows, when is the vote, who is the sponsor, who is the opposition etc. I want to become educated yet all I see is how bad crossbows are and how users will burn in the fires of hell. My dad is getting up there in age and has alot of trouble with compounds, not sure he qualifies for a disability but the draw weight he pulls could probably be considered unethical. At first glance a crossbow seems like a great idea but maybe there is something I am missing. I for one love my compound and would not switch unless I was in his situation but that would be my choice.

Please where is the best place for pro's and con's of legalizing Xbows, and where to read up on any current legislature? Please educate me on what's out there.

PM's welcome.


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## whitehunter2

nysparticus said:


> I know this is a sensitive topic here on AT but I just spent all this time reading 8 pages of well not quite sure. Is there a debate here is there not? It seems it all comes down to the personal preference of each hunter.
> 
> I admit it i am new to hunting (3rd year) but enjoy it tremendously, enough so that I have bought a lifetime license, and want to be more involved with some of the local organizations. I will admit I am naive and need help understanding what is out there.
> 
> Does anyone have any information on if there is even a bill out there to legalize crossbows, when is the vote, who is the sponsor, who is the opposition etc. I want to become educated yet all I see is how bad crossbows are and how users will burn in the fires of hell. My dad is getting up there in age and has alot of trouble with compounds, not sure he qualifies for a disability but the draw weight he pulls could probably be considered unethical. At first glance a crossbow seems like a great idea but maybe there is something I am missing. I for one love my compound and would not switch unless I was in his situation but that would be my choice.
> 
> Please where is the best place for pro's and con's of legalizing Xbows, and where to read up on any current legislature? Please educate me on what's out there.
> 
> PM's welcome.


these were the last bills in the NY state assembly. 
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?by=k&qs=crossbow

there is a small but very vocal group of about 1500 members that go by the name NY Bowhunters inc, they feel they are the voice for some 500 thousand hunters in the state and have been successful in keeping crossbows out up to now. with Jersey and PA having allowed full inclusion of crossbows the NY bowhunters inc cartel days are numbered. the vast majority of hunters in the state approve of them and this is proven with any pole that raises the crossbow question...NY state hunter numbers are shrinking at an alarming rate and full inclusion of crossbows will be a good thing for our sport, it will bring many new hunters into the sport and keep many aging hunters in the game....


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