# My whitetail deer hunting advice to you



## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm starting this thread to share my lifes learnings in hopes that what I share may make you more effective and successful as whitetail deer hunters. This is going to be a long running thread where I'm going to cover topics about everything I have learned from almost 40 years of obsessive whitetail deer hunting. I'm not going to read anyones response to any of the post until I'm completely through with the thread, It could take months to write. I will write about things you've read about and many you have not. Hopefully, I will have something to share with everyone of you that will make you more successful as whitetail deer hunters. As my hunting carreer is winding down I wanted to make sure what I learned was passed along. A basic outline of what I want to cover is outlined below. Keep in mind that I tend to get off course at times so bare with me. I'm not a professional writer, so please forgive me on my grammar. Hunting whitetail deer to me is like playing the ultimate game of chess to maximize your chances of success. I want to cover many of these topics of interest in no particular order.

*Stages of the rut and hunting each
*Strategic stand placement
*Reading deer sign and behavior
*scrape lines
*Calling deer
*Gimmicks use
*Hunting pressured deer
*Hunting from the ground
*Bedding areas/feeding areas/travel corridors
*Equipment selection
*Baiting
*Playing the wind

I'll add in some short stories along the way to reinforce what I'm trying to project. Read the thread if you want, if your not interested in what I have to say just don't read the thread. It is going to be my little project for the summer and early fall.


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## mikecs4life (Sep 13, 2009)

Im all eyes. Type away


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

mikecs4life said:


> Im all eyes. Type away


I'll pull up a chair as well...


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*A little introduction about myself*

I'm not sure exactly what led me into obsessively hunting whitetail deer but I suspect it is because of my oldest brother Bob. I'm one of 6 boys and I'm the youngest and Bob is the oldest. I always sort of idolized Bob because he paid attention to me. Bob liked to hunt and would always take me with him. I started reading about whitetail deer hunting back in the early 70's with magazines like Field and stream and Outdoor Life. There weren't many deer around my house in the early 70's so I had to read about the grand adventures of Fred Bear. The mid 70's to 80's brought on an explosion of the deer population as well as reading material. I started reading about modern day whitetail hunting experts such as Myles Kellar and the Benoit's. I basically read every magazine and book I could get my hands on. The big buck hunting really took off in the 80's. I read much material from some great hunters such as Dick Idol and David Morris as well as Chuck Adams. Educational and entertaining magazine really started popping up such as; Deer and Deer Hunting, North American Whitetail, Easton. I have read the writings of many other well known and not so well known authors and have learned much including; DR David Samual, Charles Alshiemer (?sp), Bobby Worthington... I more or less revolved my entire life around hunting deer or learning about them. A condition of my employment, marriage, and carreer was that I got to have my vacation off to deer hunt whenever I wanted and no hassles from anyone. I would break my back at work and around the house doing things to compensate for my obsession. Enough about me, I'll move right into the thread. I learned through trial and error how to master my equipment. Im my early years I would study ballistic charts and could quote trajectory/energy/velocity of hundreds of cartridges out to 500 yards. I took up reloading metalic cartridges and got obsessed with accuracy of rifles for many years and having the flattest shooting most accurate rifle I could afford. Most of my earliest years of hunting in the 70's and 80's were with rifles in the state of W.Va. That's not saying I didn't bow hunt because I did but my only real focus was to fill tags and get to gun hunting, that is where the majority of my small bucks came from. No real big bucks were around my house. The 1990's I learned of a giant buck in a magazine that was " The walking world record ". What fascinated me about this buck was that it hailed from WVa, my home state. I immediately went from hunting bucks to hunting trophy bucks. I purchased copies of the P&Y/B&C record books and made up charts where the big bucks were coming from out of my home state. Unfortunately I learned that only 7 B&C class bucks had ever came out of my state at that time. So at that time measures were taken to start focusing on trophy bucks. This took place in the 90's sometime. The buck that started the whole trophy thing was the current WVa state record Jerry Hill buck. I eventually branched out to other states where there are more huntable numbers of record class deer. So the very first bit of advice is; IF YOU WANT TO KILL A RECORD CLASS DEER YOU HAVE TO HUNT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO LIVE AND GROW IN HUNTABLE NUMBERS. This will be the best advice I can give you you if you are after a trophy buck. I will move on to my next topic when I get some time to write again. There is grass to mow and cars that need washed. My first little buck was a 5 pointer, that's half the rack beside those freaky little racks. The bottom photo is the Jerry Hill buck. So in these two photo's you see the extremes of what I was hunting early on compared to what I wanted to hunt.


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## HAPPY DAD (Feb 8, 2008)

I think I am going to LOVE this.

I STILL read everythign I can and try to apply it to my hunting


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## 22Mag (Aug 31, 2009)

Im IN!


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## bj99robinson (Jan 8, 2009)

I love Dean's threads, for more than one reason!


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## chuckatuk (May 28, 2003)

:darkbeer: good thread Dean


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks for writing this.. 

One piece of advice... Please add paragraphs where possible. 

Its so much easier to read.

For example:

I'm not sure exactly what led me into obsessively hunting whitetail deer but I suspect it is because of my oldest brother Bob. I'm one of 6 boys and I'm the youngest and Bob is the oldest. I always sort of idolized Bob because he paid attention to me. Bob liked to hunt and would always take me with him. 

I started reading about whitetail deer hunting back in the early 70's with magazines like Field and stream and Outdoor Life. There weren't many deer around my house in the early 70's so I had to read about the grand adventures of Fred Bear. The mid 70's to 80's brought on an explosion of the deer population as well as reading material. I started reading about modern day whitetail hunting experts such as Myles Kellar and the Benoit's. I basically read every magazine and book I could get my hands on. 

The big buck hunting really took off in the 80's. I read much material from some great hunters such as Dick Idol and David Morris as well as Chuck Adams. Educational and entertaining magazine really started popping up such as; Deer and Deer Hunting, North American Whitetail, Easton. I have read the writings of many other well known and not so well known authors and have learned much including; DR David Samual, Charles Alshiemer (?sp), Bobby Worthington... 

I more or less revolved my entire life around hunting deer or learning about them. A condition of my employment, marriage, and carreer was that I got to have my vacation off to deer hunt whenever I wanted and no hassles from anyone. I would break my back at work and around the house doing things to compensate for my obsession. 

Enough about me, I'll move right into the thread. I learned through trial and error how to master my equipment. Im my early years I would study ballistic charts and could quote trajectory/energy/velocity of hundreds of cartridges out to 500 yards. I took up reloading metalic cartridges and got obsessed with accuracy of rifles for many years and having the flattest shooting most accurate rifle I could afford. Most of my earliest years of hunting in the 70's and 80's were with rifles in the state of W.Va. That's not saying I didn't bow hunt because I did but my only real focus was to fill tags and get to gun hunting, that is where the majority of my small bucks came from. 

No real big bucks were around my house. The 1990's I learned of a giant buck in a magazine that was " The walking world record ". What fascinated me about this buck was that it hailed from WVa, my home state. I immediately went from hunting bucks to hunting trophy bucks. I purchased copies of the P&Y/B&C record books and made up charts where the big bucks were coming from out of my home state. Unfortunately I learned that only 7 B&C class bucks had ever came out of my state at that time. So at that time measures were taken to start focusing on trophy bucks. This took place in the 90's sometime. The buck that started the whole trophy thing was the current WVa state record Jerry Hill buck. I eventually branched out to other states where there are more huntable numbers of record class deer. So the very first bit of advice is; IF YOU WANT TO KILL A RECORD CLASS DEER YOU HAVE TO HUNT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO LIVE AND GROW IN HUNTABLE NUMBERS. This will be the best advice I can give you you if you are after a trophy buck. 

I will move on to my next topic when I get some time to write again. There is grass to mow and cars that need washed. My first little buck was a 5 pointer, that's half the rack beside those freaky little racks. The bottom photo is the Jerry Hill buck. So in these two photo's you see the extremes of what I was hunting early on compared to what I wanted to hunt.


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## 45er (Jan 18, 2009)

*Ditto*



HammyAbeer said:


> Thanks for writing this..
> 
> One piece of advice... Please add paragraphs where possible.
> 
> ...


I think I'm going to enjoy this thread, but my eyes got tired just looking at that giant paragraph-story. Breaking it up into decent paragraphs is a positive suggestion.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

Good luck with this, Dean.

marty


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't need no stinking paragraphs, but if it helps out these other guys, that's OK too.


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## bsizzle (Jun 22, 2005)

subscribed.........:shade:


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

zap said:


> Good luck with this, Dean.
> 
> marty


Yep. Hope it goes well for ya. I'll enjoy reading it.


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I'm always interested in anyones thoughts and opinions on whitetail hunting. It's always cool to compare tips and tactics to the ones I feel that I've been able to apply over the years. I'm curious to watch this thread develop. 

.


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## mossyoak79 (Nov 18, 2008)

cool i dig it


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

Since I have been obsessed with the same as you for 54 years now, i'm always looking for tips. I too, am on the back side of life & passing my knowledge to my kids & g-kids that have taken up the sport of Bowhunting & the outdoors. My career started in 1956 & NO deer where I lived. I read all I could about Fred Bear, Ben Pearson & Howard Hill in those late 50s & on.

I won't worry about paragraphs or a typo's. Looking forward to a good read & what you may shed light on...


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## meatmissile (Oct 26, 2009)

Man I am sure glad I saw this thread..I need all the help I can get in hunting bigger more mature bucks!!! Your statement about you have to hunt where trophy bucks exist in huntable numbers, to me is the #1 factor in consistently killing trophy bucks!!!!!


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## gmwilkes (Apr 14, 2010)

well im hooked.


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## centifanto (Mar 3, 2010)

awesome thread


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

I always enjoy reading about Deans exploits, should be a good thread.


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## grfox (Jan 17, 2010)

Lets hear it Dean......


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## thwacker (Dec 25, 2009)

OK I'm taking the bait, I just subscribed to the tread.............let it roll.


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## GobblerDown (Oct 27, 2009)

Hang on don't start yet.....I am going to get my rubber boots!


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## Superbowhunter (Sep 21, 2009)

I will follow along with this!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Stages of the rut*

There have been several different models of staging the whitetail rut. As far as my hunting goes, I will attempt to discuss the stages I have traditionally had some experience with; the pre rut, rut and post rut. I realize many hunters are allowed to hunt through the summer months for velvet antlered deer. I have never been exposed to that so I will leave that for others to discuss/address. If I were to guess the most effective strategy for hunting velvet antlered deer it would revolve around evening hunts around water holes and food sources. It has been my experience from glassing at this time of the year that bucks are extremely predictable in their patterns, showing up in the same corner of a field for weeks on end. This is the time of the year that I traditionally start taking drives in my truck and on my 4 wheeler around the countryside to glass these fields and water holes for groups of bachelor bucks while on the side working on fine tuning my equipment. Keep in mind that while you may be seeing these bucks on a routine basis that come October and November the deer you are observing may be miles away. It is a good time to get an idea of what exactly the herd your hunting looks like and very fun to see large groups of velvet bucks. To make good use of your time I'd be on the look out for what your mast production looks like. Take notes and try to differentiate between white oak and the other oaks. Deer have a preference once these start to drop and you'll want to be prepared to capitalize. Any time your talking effectively hunting deer you have to know several thing before the hunt even begins or you very well could be wasting your time or at the very least not maximizing your chances of success. You'll want to know; the stage of the rut, food/water sources, bedding areas, hunting pressure, weather. I'm going to propose that a man would have a much higher chance at success if he would vary his/her hunting strategy's based upon these factors which change almost daily. The next entry I'll discuss the prerut and what activity you'll see in the field and propose a few hunting strategy's I've learned over the years to maximize your chances. Keep in mind that I generally hunt out of a tree stand only several days a year.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Great idea and great thread Dean.


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## deanzr2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Subscribing to this thread!


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

Could you go over identifying buck bedding areas if you get a chance?


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## Sgt. Fury (May 30, 2010)

Awesome!

Myself and my 8 year old son greatly appreciate this. Thank you for your efforts and taking the time to do this!!!!!!!!


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

Best advice I've got for killing a mature buck: Get our the checkbook it ain't gonna be cheap...it's SO true. how many giants are killed on public land and I'm not talking 300lb+ other hunters. I could bag 4-5 of them a trip.

You gotta pay to play anymore long gone are the days of getting permission w/o it costing you $50 an acre.


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## gregbishere (Aug 6, 2010)

keep the information coming, I'm hooked!


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## wevans340 (Apr 28, 2010)

hell yeah. Something worth reading!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The pre rut*

For my definition purposes, I'm going to define the pre rut as the time frame from the time the velvet falls off the deers antlers to the time that the scrapes leaf over initially. Try to keep in mind that even though I'll mention time frames they are not for all parts of the whitetail deers range. In the North things happen a little earlier and in the South they happen later. Around central United states the bucks generally shed their velvet the first week of September and most have shed by September the 14th. 

The bucks tend to stick together at this time and you'll start to see some light sparring taking place. Most of the bucks I've seen shed their velvet has happened over a very short time frame, usually less than one day. You'll roughly get one week to check out the bachelor groups in hard horn before they pull the old disappearing act. This is the time frame when hunters that have been watching a certain buck get very frustrated. The buck they have been observing in the greenfields and food plots come up missing. 

This frustrated me for years until I inadvertantly solved the mystery while doing some preseason squirrel scouting. I had lost track of a group of 11 bucks that I had been watching in a greenfield about a 1/2 mile away. I was setting in a group of whiteoaks watching the grey squirrels cutting away like crazy when I noticed several deer moving toward me. Low and behold it was the bachelor bucks. They fed heavily on the acorns and laid down between snacks. I watched them for several days from an elevated position on the hill above. 

I started taking note while driving along the interstate I wasn't seeing half the buck I normally do. I got to looking deep into the woods and started picking them out. They were all feeding on white oaks. I also noted that at this same time the deer were replacing their summer coats with winter coats. The bucks began only moving when it was cool early and late. They almost always would water immediately after raising from their beds and before they laid down for the day. So there you have it, a guy wishing to kill a September buck would do well to hunt over/near water or whiteoaks. A well placed stand downwind of a whiteoak that is actually being fed on is a sure bet. 

Keep in mind that the deer will quickly clean up the acorns and move on to the next. There usually is a mad dash to eat the acorns after a rainstorm or a heavy wind for obvious reasons. The water hole is a good place to start on extremely dry/hot days. I have seen a few apple trees start dropping at this time and the buck have them high on their list of desirables. So September and early October one would do well to hunt near water/apples/whiteoaks. Try to remain mobile and be prepared to jump trees if you need to. I'll move into the scraping phase of the prerut with my next post.


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## PassYoungBucks (Jan 17, 2009)

Subscribed to this thread and Gobblerdown's avatar. :darkbeer:


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

There is water everywhere this year, no apple tree's or white oaks either.

Guess I am screwed... :toothy2:

marty


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

our white oaks are loaded and out fruit tress have plenty of fruit as well. I'm ready for cooler weather and October !!


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## DonnieBaker (Nov 18, 2005)

PassYoungBucks said:


> Subscribed to this thread and Gobblerdown's avatar. :darkbeer:


:wink:


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## bobbal (Sep 15, 2004)

*I'm in*

The acorns are falling a month sooner here. It could be an interesting season


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## zmax hunter (Aug 21, 2006)

Thanks for sharing,....Good info for sure!


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## HunterDDS (Feb 12, 2008)

I'm in.


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

lavazhole said:


> Best advice I've got for killing a mature buck: Get our the checkbook it ain't gonna be cheap...it's SO true. how many giants are killed on public land and I'm not talking 300lb+ other hunters. I could bag 4-5 of them a trip.
> 
> You gotta pay to play anymore long gone are the days of getting permission w/o it costing you $50 an acre.


Not exactly true, just head up to "Cornbelt Outfitters" in IL for one of his free hunts.

Alright Dean, fire away!


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## Ohio Mossy Oak (Dec 17, 2006)

.hmmmm


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## silentassassin (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with Dean's last post but will add that I have found that if you have chinkapin oaks they will fall first and the deer will eat them early over whiteoaks while both are still green. After they begin to change the will switch to the whiteoaks. Not alot of chinkapins around though.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Mini post after supper--*

I got to thinking that some of you guys may not have any whiteoaks in September and early October. I guess you guys need to find your preferred food source and set up ambushes along travel corridors from feeding/watering areas to bedding areas. I have not hunted out West during the prerut so I won't have any definite advice to add, just merely guessing based upon what I have seen on TV and heard and read. 

It appears many guys out Montana along the Milk River have fairly good early season success glassing food plots and green fields from distance and elevation and merely setting up in ambush downwind along the travel corridors you observe the deer using. Just keep in mind that whiteoaks are like candy to deer. If you've ever tasted a whiteoak they are a little like a chestnut and are much sweeter than red/pin oaks. The red oaks are just plain bitter.I guess they are high in nutrients and the deer know that. 

Now would be an excellant time to tell you about a little trick I have used very successfully on a couple bucks. As soon as I'm driving down the road and run over some nuts and hear the popping under my tires I know the nuts are falling. I take feed bags, a rake, and my 4 wheeler to the woods and fill up several bags full of whiteoaks every year. I store them in my out building with my whole corn for use in November after all of the whiteoaks are gone and the deer are starting to rely on redoak and brows. 

Another early season delicacy that deer like is a little green colored, banana tasting, paw paw which is fairly common here in the North East. I have also seen them hit watermelon/pumpkin pretty consistantly once they figure out what it is. Persimmons come on after the first frost and around here that's usually in mid to late October along with the majority of the apples. 

I'm sure some of you guys have some other foods that are unique to your locale that the deer like. The bottom line is early in September and October your best hunting strategy is to hunt the food and water sources. That will lead us into my next topic of the scraping stage. That sounds fun but don't get too excited.


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## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

A great tale. I was hunting in West VA in the 70's myself a little town called Hanging rock outside of Romery. I lived and had a small hunt camp and lived in Manassas VA. What a great bucn of friends we made when we lived there on the weekends. Fising in North River was a treat. Hunting the Blue Ridge forrest.


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*Great info*

Thanks Dean!


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## x-by-x (Sep 3, 2004)

I'm in


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Scraping stage of the pre rut.*

Scrapes/rubs start to show up in earnest in October. You guys have seen them dotting the sides of pasture fields and logging roads. They seem romantic to us because we know that the animal causing these marks on the ground and on the trees are made by the animal we are after. Scrapes can tell us many things about the deer that made them. 

We can observe scrapes/rubs and tell which way the deer was standing/traveling when he made the sign. A buck will generally make scrapes as he travels along a certain route early in the season on the way to food or water sources which means just about anywhere. A buck almost always signs every scrape with one lone front foot stomp. Look closely and you'll see this print near the center of just about every scrape. This print can give you an idea of the physical size of the buck that made the track. A large hoof print of greater than 3" long from the tip of the hoof to the back of the rounded portion of the track is generally the track of a larger bodied buck.The dirt will be thrown in the opposite way he is going and usually he'll make rubs on sapling as well. If you notice closely the rubs will be generally facing the way the dirt is thrown. 

I have a theory about hill country bucks that I haven't read much about in reference to rubs in the early season. I feel that the biggest buck in a given area will take over the highest point in regards to rubs. I'm not referring to hills like Ohio or Illinois, I'm referring to the Allegheny's. Rubs are a way for deer to communicate with all members of the herd as well as strengthening the neck in anticipation of battle. Bucks will walk up to a tree and scrape up and down on the tree with his antlers intermittantly rubbing his forehead on the tree and sometimes licking it. You can get an idea about the size and rack characteristic by observing these rubs. Generally speaking all bucks rub small trees and occassionally a small buck will rub a big tree. However the damage done to a large tree by a small buck is marginal at best. What your looking for to find a large buck is a group of big trees (3+", preferably 6+" ) that are really damaged. A large racked buck will rub higher on the tree than smaller bucks. 

Most of the larger bucks that I have pursued or taken were rubbing about knee to chest level high on me and I'm about 5' 10". The depth of the tine marks gives you an idea of the physical size of the buck that made the rub. To get an idea of how large the rack is one must try to decipher the brow gaurd marks and the tine marks. The two side by side marks going up and down the tree in the center are usually made by the brow gaurds/tines. They usually start low around the mid shin level and go up to about your waste. There should be marks on the side of the tree above these center/brow tine marks. These marks are usually made by the G2-4's ( top tines ). I try to find the highest brow tine mark ( center of the rub ) and the highest top tine mark ( side of the tree ) and measure the distance between the two. This gives you much valuable information such as how tall the rack is and how long the points are. The presence of shredding of the bark suggest sticker points usually around the bases. A few trees can be misleading.

The presence of large rubs on aromatic staining trees such as Sumac or hemlock can be the work of 110 class bucks.It seems just about every deer in the woodlot has got to work over these trees. However, beware if they are deeply gouged or rubbed real high a small buck doesn't do that. I hunted a large buckmin Ohio that tormented me for years until I finally got him. 

I saw him standing by the road about 4am on the way into my hunting site. He was a good 165 class 10 point in his prime. I scouted that area and found his rubs high on the ridge above where I saw him. He probably rubbed 40 pines 12-18" in diameter and pretty well tore them up. I caught him several years later late getting back to his bed in the swamp. He had went down hill but still was very impressive for an old deer. So what have we covered??

I've suggested that you look for scrapes signed with a hoof print 3+" long. I made the remark that most of my big bucks have rubbed from knee to chest high. Don't trust a sumac or hemlock to judge a buck rack size unless it's gouged deeply. I've also told you how to measure the height of a deer rack by looking at a rub. I suggest that if you live in hill country go to the highest point and look for giant rubs. My Ohio rubline buck is below.


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## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

Man, if I read all of this maybe I can go and kill my own Big Boy this year...yeah...I'm pumped


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## HCA Iron Mace (Jul 3, 2009)

great job Dean


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## MI Hoytforlife (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanks Dean for the info !

I will stay tuned to this thread :darkbeer:


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## Flydown (Oct 6, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> He was a good 165 class 10 point in his prime.
> 
> My Ohio rubline buck is below.


Not to split hairs, but I only see nine points on him unless his right side G-4 is concealed.

Not trying to bash your thread as I really appreciate someone willing to take the time to share his hard earned knowledge of Whitetails with me. Thank you for doing this as I am sure it will make us all better hunters!

This my friends is what is great about a hunting forum! :darkbeer:


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## C-Dubya (Dec 5, 2007)

Subscribed.


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## blackmaxdeath (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm in... really cool your doing this Dean.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Clarification, I'm sorry for the confusing post*



Flydown said:


> Not to split hairs, but I only see nine points on him unless his right side G-4 is concealed.
> 
> Not trying to bash your thread as I really appreciate someone willing to take the time to share his hard earned knowledge of Whitetails with me. Thank you for doing this as I am sure it will make us all better hunters!
> 
> This my friends is what is great about a hunting forum! :darkbeer:


Good catch, perhaps this was not written clearly. The deer was a 165" class 10 point in his prime ( several years before I took him ). When took the buck several years later and he had reverted back to a 140 class 9 pointer. The body of an aging buck gets smaller as he really starts to get old making him appear as a 2-3 year old. However, the tooth wear doesn't lie. The jaw bone is from the buck in question is below and we have him between 6.5-9 years old based upon tooth wear and in the field sightings. 

I think from hunting him he was 8.5 when I took him. There are two jaws in the photo below of poor quality. The jaw without any writing on it was aged at 4.5 years old by a biologist. I used it for comparison to the 2008 Ohio jaw, as well as looking at some online literature, and came up with the age of roughly 8.5. If I knew how to add a link for you I'd get you guys that are interested in learning to age a deer based upon a jaw tooth wear some good reading information.


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## ILBowhunter22 (Sep 10, 2009)

Great thread. I am learning tons here and hopefully it will help me take my first buck!


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## venisonman (Apr 9, 2004)

Thanks for sharing, Dean


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Continued with the pre rut scraping/rubbing stage*

In my last post I really didn't cover scrapes very much because I got off track and focused on rubs. I did say that you can tell the direction of travel by looking at a group of scrapes and which direction the soil was tossed. You also can tell the body size of the buck that last visited scrape by his signature front hoof stomp. A front hoof track of greater than 3", in the North, usually means a mature whitetail buck. Scrapes do provide a hunter with some valuable, usable information but they are not all they are cracked up to be. 

Many guys will set up on scrape lines and set for days on end without seeing the deer their after. Recent research has suggested that the majority of scrapes are made at night. This information correlates with what my hunting experience has been. In the early fall deer are focused on packing on pounds for the upcoming winter. They will shift their bedding and feeding areas based upon food availability. That is why the woods are full of scrapes in October of varying ages of use.

A buck will make scrapes on the way to and from a food source. If you have a set food source that they are using like a food plot you can probably use this information but it will be tough since most of the activity takes place at night. However, if you have varied food sources the scrapes will be all over the place and are not patternable. In other words they are made at random at night when a buck is going to a certain area to feed and that food source may be gone in a few days causing the buck to change travels again thus an entire different set of scrapes. A bucks bedding area can change at this time of the year creating more confusion.

Deer don't like to move much during the daylight because normally this time of the year it's still pretty warm and they have on their winter coats. They will generally bed where it is cool and near water and the prefered food source. So if your starting to get frustrated with what I'm suggesting you should. Hunting scrapes can often be futile. However, occassionally their will be a year with mast failure and you have the deer locked into a steady source of food the scrapes can be used. You more or less must backtrack the scrapes from the food source a hundred or so yards and set up in ambush on the down wind side. Your counting on the buck leaving his bed early and walking by your stand before it gets to dark to shoot. There is one scrape that you definitly can use the week before the scrapes leaf over in November in my hunting area. 

This scrape I refer to as a breeding scrape. The closer it gets to November the scrapes go from little scratches on the ground to some serious foot stomping and dirt throwing. The big boys will hit these scrapes sometimes in the daylight but again mostly at night. However, the big boys start cruising between known doe groups. You would initially think they would tear these scrapes up as they travel. It has been my experience that they don't hit these scrapes during the daylight but ( get on your thinking caps ) skirt them down wind and scent check them. That is obviously good information on planning your attack. Don't set up on the scrape line, setup down wind. You might ask how far down wind? 

I'd get down wind from 40 to 150 yards and look for trails with big rubs if your after a big buck. Set up down wind of these scrapes because the big boy won't hit them during the daylight but will scent check them from the down wind side as he cruises between doe groups. The little guys go nuts this time of the year and will stupidly hit the scrapes during the daylight. If your not able to get in the woods to follow the scrapes all you have to do is to start observing the roadways for the first signs of an increase in the number of road killed bucks. That tells you they are starting to cruise. There is one type of scrape if your lucky enough to find immediately before the full blown rut starts that a mature buck will visit and work over in the daylight. 

These scrapes I refer to as breeding scrapes. I usually find one or two breeding scrapes every year and if it wasn't for me scouting on foot the majority of the day I would only have found several in my life. They are located in the thickest of cover and can be of vety large size. I have seen them 15' across with tons of various sized tracks in them and tore to pieces. The problem presents that they are in extremely thick cover which arrows don't like. I once found one in the bottom of a valley where 5 different ravines channeled into one. You couldn't hunt it because the scrape was covered up by mountain laurel.

So I have discussed scrapes from the early season where bucks make them from and to feeding areas to bedding areas. You can only effectively hunt them if you have a set food source. I have suggested that if your in the cruising stage of the prerut you can hunt srapelines down wind on large rublines if your after a mature buck and probably along the scrape line on younger bucks during that two week period immediately prior to the scrapes leafing over. I'd like to discuss my most effective and exciting hunting method with my next post. Calling in bucks immediately before the rut. I know I still haven't covered all the stages of the rut but this is exciting stuff and fits right in with the timefrome immediately before and after the prerut comes to an end.


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

zap said:


> There is water everywhere this year, no apple tree's or white oaks either.
> 
> Guess I am screwed... :toothy2:
> 
> marty


FYI. I've shared this with some AT members so I'll post the link. I follow this forage guide and have patterned deer forage by season in different states.
From Texas to the East on public land NO food plots.

I rank the food as "CANDY FOOD" and hunt these sources until depleted.

I am always on deer using this list. The grasses are the hardest to ID so google the scientific names for PICS and Locations..

This is a good link for the scientific hunter...Locating natural food sources in order of deer's preference is my # one rule too on public no plots land. MOST important scouting there is...food sources 1st


http://www.noble.org/Ag/Wildlife/deerfoods/toc.html









http://www.noble.org/Ag/Wildlife/deerfoods/table3.html


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

What are forbes?

marty


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

zap said:


> What are forbes?
> 
> marty


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forb

Basically flowering plants. Thats why deer like Home gardens

Here is the link to the description of the foods in the graph by category. The 1st link has MULTIPLE links to a BUNCH of deer browse/cover/range data by geographic area. Again..its detailed scientific reading but worth consumption.

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Wildlife/deerfoods/HabitatReq3.html


Sorry to hijack the thread but the question on food sources looked like it needed some answers.

I'm done. THX


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Here is a table as a % of diet BY SEASON so you can see WHAT food is the PRIMARY Target (but you still key on CANDY Foods like White Oaks when available). 

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Wildlife/deerfoods/AppendixB.html

deer candy link http://www.dto.com/hunting/article/700


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## HCH (Sep 20, 2006)

Great thread and info Dean. I always enjoy your deer hunting info.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*A very nice graph*



grizzl said:


> FYI. I've shared this with some AT members so I'll post the link. I follow this forage guide and have patterned deer forage by season in different states.
> From Texas to the East on public land NO food plots.
> 
> I rank the food as "CANDY FOOD" and hunt these sources until depleted.
> ...


I agree with it but that 8% acorns is the primary food source when we are normally in the woods hunting the deer. Think back about the gut piles you've had. They were full of acorns/corn/apples/persimmons... with a little sticks and things mixed in. I'm convinced that the main diet is of brows, forbes, grasses if the deer doesn't have the other selections available to them. Id like to point out that deer really like honeysuckle too. I'm not suggesting anything other than what you already said just clarifying the preferred food source when we are in the woods hunting them. By the way, always do a post motum on all the deer you take to see what they have been feeding on. That's some useful information especially if you know where those food sources are located.


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> I agree with it but that 8% acorns is the primary food source when we are normally in the woods hunting the deer. Think back about the gut piles you've had. They were full of acorns/corn/apples/persimmons... with a little sticks and things mixed in. I'm convinced that the main diet is of brows, forbes, grasses if the deer doesn't have the other selections available to them. Id like to point out that deer really like honeysuckle too. I'm not suggesting anything other than what you already said just clarifying the preferred food source when we are in the woods hunting them. By the way, always do a post motum on all the deer you take to see what they have been feeding on. That's some useful information especially if you know where those food sources are located.


I agree, I think it might be based on yearly consumption %'s of total diet. The percentage of acorns consumed compared to other foods in the fall is far more than 8 %.


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> I agree with it but that 8% acorns is the primary food source when we are normally in the woods hunting the deer. Think back about the gut piles you've had. They were full of acorns/corn/apples/persimmons... with a little sticks and things mixed in. I'm convinced that the main diet is of brows, forbes, grasses if the deer doesn't have the other selections available to them. Id like to point out that deer really like honeysuckle too. I'm not suggesting anything other than what you already said just clarifying the preferred food source when we are in the woods hunting them. By the way, always do a post motum on all the deer you take to see what they have been feeding on. That's some useful information especially if you know where those food sources are located.


I agreed with that. Certain foods White Oaks..persimmons (see my candy food link) are prefferred OVER ALL other sources when they are available. You should hunt these until they stop dropping. So the point of my addition was to locate the "preffered foods" and hunt until depleted.

This table comes into play when the mast crop fails and acorns are not available...in certain times...frost/drought kill the acorn buds so you have to fall back to secondary forage.

The link I provided had forage to different types of woods..Like ZAP said...someguys won't have acorns to hunt so I provided this research.

Again...I'm not cutting into your thread...just adding some info ABSOLUTLY RANK THE FOODS AND HUNT FROM #1 on down as they appear...Each part of the country has its "preffered list"..Google your area...here Michigan as an example. Each state has DNR Studies data you can access 

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12148-61306--,00.html


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*My favorite time of the hunting season*

My favorite time to be in the deer woods is generally the week before to the week after the scrapes have leafed over. This is the transition of the prerut to the rut. This fortunately coincides with the timing most of us take our vacations to bowhunt. The week before the scrapes leaf over you've got a pretty good chance of rattling in a mature buck if you play your cards right. You'll know the time to rattle is right when your seeing bucks cruising everywhere and harassing doe to no end.Take note harassing doe and breeding/tending are two completely different things. A buck that corners off a doe and runs her around an area for a while and scent checks and moves off is not tending the doe his is just scent checking her to see if she is receptive to his advances. This is an excellant time to rattle in a mature whitetail. They have not locked themselves down on a doe yet.

I hunt in the mountainous terrain of Southern W.Va. The buck doe ratio is almost 1:1 in my area. That makes calling in mature/older deer so much easier. I'm going to recommend something that is going to pull many out of their comfort zone. I'm going to recommend rattling in buck from the ground using the team work of a few hunting buddies or solo with the increased risk of you not seeing the buck that was called in. 

I like to rattle on those early November mornings when there is a heavy frost and it is dead quiet. I have the group walk and stop occassionally mimicking the sound of browsing deer. I generally find an end of a point where the sound of my rattling sequence can be heard for a long ways off. I have at least one guy go down wind about 80 yards and hide in a likely looking spot. I find a spot to hide where my calling can be heard the best. If I have another hunter with me, I'll set them upwind of me a ways in the event a buck comes in that direction. That pretty well eliminates my own personal chance at success but it's fun to watch.

Once everyone is tucked away nice, I start my call sequence with the sound of two different buck grunts ( HS Scents--True Talker ). I then do some light tree scraping with the antlers simulating the sound of antlers rubbing a tree. I then do some light antlers to the ground to paint the auditory illusion of walking mixed in with an occassional buck grunt and then throw in a doe bleat/fawn bleat with " The Can". I then proceed to start the rattling sequence. I usually start with a clash of the tines followed by some grinding and then back to some clashing of the tines mixed in with some grunts and brush breaking. I end with a furious pounding of the antlers to the ground/breaking of brush simulating a fleeing buck followed up by a dominate buck grunt. This is all topped off with a soft roll of " The can " or a doe bleat. Always be prepared to shoot quickly.

I usually set up in the middle of a laurel bush and have several limbs broken off for shooting lanes. I hang my bow on one of these broken off limbs stubs with an arrow knocked and pointing in the direction I anticipate the buck coming from. I always range several landmarks to use as references when I need to shoot. I always set my sliding adjustable site to 30 yards and aim low in the vitals if he is extremely close and in the middle if he farther out. If it is a long shot I always use my laser and adjust my slider accordingly. I always have my laser hanging nearby so I can get to it quickly. 

I usually call and then wait 30 minutes or so until I move on to the next point. I have had most of my prerut rattling success before 11:00am. I then usually regroup for the day and plan an evening watch of a food source or a travel corridor between known doe bedding groups, or down wind of doe bedding areas. I've got some really cool stories about rattling that I can share when I get the time including taking my alltime favorite buck and calling in a hunter that looked like he came straight out of the movie deliverance.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Good points and good ideas*

Of interest and note, in my home state of WVA and in Ohio and Illinois I noticed that deer really take to eating greenbriars. Perhaps some of you guys can relate to that and use it in years of mast failure. Don't ever worry about cutting in on the thread with me. If you have something to add have at it. Thank you for your input. I just didn't want someone to get confused and think instead of hunting a loaded whitoak they should be setting up over a patch of greenbriars.


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*Local forage*

I didn't think about it until you mentioned the green briers, Dean. Just as you mentioned all the other signs, I've used the "naked" tops of briers to alert me of deer activity. Every little piece of information adds to the chance of success. Thanks for taking to the time to share your experience and knowledge. I think many may have had thoughts of the things you mention. You're doing an excellent job of putting it all together. :thumbs_up


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## Eric W (Jan 16, 2007)

I just subscribed to this thread and started my internet research to learn how to identify white oak trees!
.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The rut*

This is the time of the year everyone gets the most excited about and probably accounts for 90% of the dominate buck in the herds demise. This is the time when buck are actively breeding does and are very vulnerable to getting killed. They will actually seek out a doe and be with her sometimes for several days following her through yards/across roads/through the middle of field and right under a hunters stand regardless if there is a hunter in it or not. Usually this tending buck is being harrassed to no end by several smaller satelite bucks jockying for a chance to breed the doe. The dominate buck may run off one buck and before he can get back several other bucks have the doe in the next county. This is the time of the year when you see dominate bucks make bad mistakes. This is a good time for anyone to be afield regardless of your hunting experience because a big old buck might just stop right under your stand in the middle of the day. However, it may not be as easy as it sounds especially with the older age class bucks that have a doe sequestered in a briar patch for several days.

There are several effective strategies for hunting this time of the year but you will probably not get a crack at your big boy by waiting on him. You can capitalize on the others bucks frustrations by setting up in funnels/travel corridors between known doe bedding groups and trying some light rattling and calling. Don't get to agressive with the rattling unless your area is over run with dominate/mature bucks. Most of the less dominate bucks have taken a serious butt whipping and are reluctant to come charging into some heavy horn banging. I'd try some light rattling and soft calling for best results. During the peak of the rut try your best to be on stand all day long because the deer never take a break from cruising unless it gets unseasonably hot and I'll cover that topic later. So you may ask what is a travel corridor or funnel?

A funnel is a narrow area of travel that a deer is forced into that keeps them from being exposed during their travels. It could be a narrow band of brush connecting two separate blocks of timber or a narrow patch of trees between a road and a field that connects two blocks of timber. I have seen funnels as small as a wooded fencelines. A travel corridor is a trail that deer have tradionally used to get from point A to point B. It could be a well used deer trail paralleling the mountain top 1/3 of the way down from the top. It could be a trail through a block of timber that is used over the generations and is well established. 

The key to hunting funnels is to make sure you have a well hidden stand that is downwind of the trail otherwise you'll get picked off and your chances will be shot. This is really about the only time I specifically say I will definitly spend some time in a tree stand. Don't be afraid to jump out of your stand and change locations if you think you may have a better chance at getting a shot a buck in a breeding group. Example, you see several bucks chasing a doe all morning on the next mountain over. They keep going back and forth through this small narrow band of trees. Wait until they have passed and make a beeline over there and get up a tree ASAP. They will probably be coming back through. The big problem with breeding groups is getting a shot.

I literally have had these groups run several times back and forth under my stand without being able to successfully stop one of the shooters in a shooting lane. It was very frustrating to see a group of 3-4 150 class bucks run straight under me and not get a shot. Some will try to stop with with a grunt and others a soft whistle. This can be a problem because it's been my experience that if you stop them successfully they seem to have spring loaded legs and are not where they were standing when you released the arrow. I more or less have been just letting these running bucks pass by and trying to softly grunt on the walking bucks unless they are less than 20 yards and then I just shoot them. I think you could debate the pro's and cons of this all day long of what to and not to do but I don't think there is a clearcut answer. So what hunting strategy do I suggest during the peak of the rut?

I suggest light rattling for less dominate bucks. I've made the suggestion to hunt in funnels between known doe groups. Bare with me, " flight of ideas ", one I failed to mention that is a good strategy immediately before the scrapes leaf over to the end of the secondary rut is to hunt downwind of known doe bedding areas. I have also suggested to be agressive in moving stand locations if you see an opportunity to get up in a stand in a funnel you've seen deer chasing back and forth through.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*If anyone gets frustrated reading these long winded threads*

Just wait until I'm done with what I've got to say and I'll post up a graph that I'll make suggesting an appropriate hunting strategys to maximize your chances based upon the sign your seeing in the field.


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## blgoode (Aug 5, 2010)

I am not tired of a thing Dean. I see a quick how to guide being written before our eyes so save the text in word or something.


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

scrapejuice said:


> Not exactly true, just head up to "Cornbelt Outfitters" in IL for one of his free hunts.
> 
> Alright Dean, fire away!


It must be awesome, I hear deer are moving there from Kansas, Iowa, etc. Just suddenly showing up on the trail cams there!!!!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Last post for the day, entertainment only*

I first heard of the buck the fall of 1998 by a delivery truck driver. He said he saw a enormous antlered buck cross the road in front of him that had a rack 30" wide. I take reports like this with a grain of salt but the following summer the same guy told me he saw the deer again. I was up in the area scouting another buck I was after and stopped by a convienence store and the clerk was telling me about seeing a giant buck from what sounded like was the same area the delivery truck guy had said. My curiosity was up now. I had two separate individuals that didn't know each other tell me about seeing a giant buck in one specific spot on the road. I immediately drove down there and dropped off the side of the mountain and picked up some impressive rubs on some big trees

I didn't get the chance to hunt that buck until later that fall. I had taken a nicer 140 class buck in Southern W.Va and called my good hunting buddy to tell him. He was happy for me but reported that he had been to his property and had found some giant rubs and scrapes. He asked me if I had some time to go down and check it out. I didn't even put two and two together but his property was about 1/2 mile from where I found the rubs earlier in the story. I got out of my truck got dressed and took my rattling antlers and grunt tube. I walked about 100-150 yards and saw the first scrape and rub. I walked over to check it out.

The scrape was in the middle of an overgrown logging road. I bent down to feel the scrape and it was still warm from where the buck had just urinated in it. I looked up the logging road and could clearly make out several more scrapes and rubs going up a ravine and then circling to the left and up on the hill. I immediately found a laurel bush and snapped off some limbs and stepped back inside the bush and hung up my bow with an arrow knocked. I took the broken off limbs and stuck them in the ground in front of me to further breakup my outline. I started my calling and rattling sequence and had just finished when I saw the sight of my life. The giant was up on the hill with his hair all hackled up on his back, his ears laid flat and walking sideways toward my position grunting with about every step. 

I laid down all of the calls and grabbed the bow and waited. He continued on a course that would have him pass my position at 35 yards before he would go into a laurel thicket and out of my life. The only shooting lane was 35 yards away. I carefully aimed and threaded a perfect arrow through the brush that found his vitals. I'll never forget that buck and he is my all time favorite buck and solo hunt. His picture is below and I refer to him as " Way to Wide " for obvious reasons.


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## arrowslinger200 (Aug 13, 2005)

Great thread! Thanks for sharing!


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## boxerjake77 (Jan 16, 2010)

Dean, you are a white tail god!!!


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## Ohio Mossy Oak (Dec 17, 2006)

Just curious.What did "way to wide"score??


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## natural born k (Dec 30, 2007)

best thread ive read so far. thanks dean


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## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

way TOO wide


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## QuickReflex (Jul 28, 2008)

subscribed to find later, thanks
never know what you might learn by listening to others even if they are hunting a different type of habbitat.


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## Flydown (Oct 6, 2009)

mtn3531 said:


> way TOO wide


Aw crap! The grammar police are on to ya' Dean!!


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## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

and just think, the honesty patrol is close by too!!!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Sub'n


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## 22Mag (Aug 31, 2009)

:thumbs_up


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## glipps (Dec 18, 2008)

great information...... thanks for sharing. patiently waiting more. :thumbs_up


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## HCH (Sep 20, 2006)

WYW is an Awesome buck Dean. Congrats!


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## bob7770699 (Dec 3, 2007)

great thread, subscribed


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## Ouachitamtnman (Sep 4, 2007)

Good Stuff. 

I find this very helpful because you hunt real similar terrain as I do in the Ouachita Mountains of SW Arkansas. I enjoyed the pics in your album...got me dreamin about fall even worse.

Subscribed.

Thanks


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Rut continued*

The last post I covered and discussed the main rut and hunting strategies to try. The " full Blown primary" rut only last about a week to 10 days. After that flurry of breeding activity takes place the bucks usually reopen their scrapes. I suggest that a hunter would be wise to get back to hunting downwind of scrapes/doe bedding areas. The bucks will start to cruise again but not nearly with the activity you saw with the primary rut so it would be a good time to get back to the funnels early and late. It's been my experience that bucks don't travel very much during this time frame and spend the majority of their time resting or feeding like crazy on whatever food source they can find. Saying that, hunting food sources such as red oak, greenfields, food plots wouldn't be to bad of a strategy. I would probably rank that ahead of the funnels/bedding areas/down wind of scrapes. The secondary rut/breeding phase starts roughly 28 days after the primary rut.

The doe that went unbred with the primary rut usually come into estrus roughly one month later and you'll see the scrapes go inactive again and start seeing a few bucks breeding doe again. This is referred to as the secondary rut. Again, you wont see as much activity as you saw with the primary rut but there definitly is an increase in buck travel and movement. A hunter would do well to try some light rattling and set up in travel corridors/funnels between food and bedding areas. Hunt as often as you can because the bucks will be moving as good as they are going to be moving until the next year. Much of the rutting activity you will observe this time of year is on or very near a food source so it would be wise to focus your attention there. Some foods I've seen deer focus on during the secondary rut in Ohio/W.Va are; greenfields, Honeysuckle, greenbriars, osage orange, corn ( just about anytime ). The post rut starts after the secondary rut is complete.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Post rut*

Yeah, these last two stages are plenty boring and most of us have pulled out a blanket and are watching the NFL playoffs but I said I was going to cover the stages of the rut so here's the last stage, "the post rut".

Lets keep it simple and sweet, the post rut is an ill defined time frame after the secondary rut is over when the bucks give up on the scrapes and chasing doe and focusing on survival which means one thing, FOOD!!!!!! The way to fill your tag in the late season is simple and reamarkably easy to remember, just simply hunt the food sources. Deer go on auto pilot and try to bed as close to the food source as possible. The bucks start to join back up with their old summer time pals and form bachelor groups. The doe start to yard up for the winter and join up with several doe friends; There is strength in numbers. The whole problem with hunting the post rut is that; your usually sick of hunting deer by then, the deer are sick of us humans killing their pals, it is cold and miserable outside. Other than those things killing a deer in the post rut is rather easy. Simply hunt down wind of trails leading to food sources or if you have a nicely hidden down wind stand directly on a food source just show up about 2 hours before dark and wait patiently. I usually scout potential post rut stands from a distance to see where the deer are entering the food source. You can then simply go in the next day and hang a stand down wind of the trails leading to the food source and be in it a couple hours before dark. Take note that deer really feed strongly/agressively in front of a winter storm. They many times will be feeding in the food source in the middle of the day right before a storm comes rolling in.


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## psbros (Mar 28, 2010)

good tips, thanks


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Funny story about rattling*

I was set up on the end of a long point the first week of November severals years back. The bucks were actively cruising for doe. I knew this because I know of a nearby sanctuary where no deer hunting is allowed. I went there in the middle of the day the day before my planned hunt to observe deer behavior. I had set for a rattling sequence up on this beautiful point with multiple hillsides directly across from from which I was sure there were several P&Y class would be within earshot. I did my normal thing by setting up in the middle of a laurel bush and went through my rattling sequence. I could hear a deer come down off the mountain in front of me and into the valley below. To bad I didn't have a partner or he surely would have gotten a shot. I heard a stick break behind me.

Low and behold here comes this hillbilly, deliverance looking guy that appeared to come straight out of the literature from the Hatfield MCcoy feud. He had a long black coat/beard/hair and was packing a double barreled shotgun that was split down between the barrels. He had one finger on the trigger and was high stepping it looking intently into my hiding spot. I yelled out " whoa buddy, there's a human in here,don't shoot ". He sat back down on his heals and said " warrrr you at? ". I said I'm in this bush right in front of you and don't shoot. I walked over to him and he said he was looking for a haaaawg!!!!!!!! I said I didn't think there were any wild boar in this area. He said " Naaaaa, there's lots of Haaaaawgs in here. I kilt one haaar last year. I think I came pretty close to getting shot or having a broke back mountain performed on me there. The hunt wasn't an entire bust.

The following day I was back at the same spot and spotted a doe with her tail tucked tight moving like she was going somewhere. She disappeared into the ravine below and I spotted MR Big coming around the hill following. I dropped down low and hid between two laurel bushes. Before I could get the grunt tube out he disappeared below me. I thought real hard and decided to try a doe bleat since he had lost track of her. I softly hit the doe bleat and waited. About 30 seconds passed and I spotted his head coming up over the bank right at me. I drew the bow and picked ahole through the laurel bush. He stepped right in that little hole and I harpooned him through the lungs. He tore off up over the bank and down the mountainside. I found him later piled up in a dried up streambed. He was a nice buck and one I wont soon forget.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Dean, 

When you're done with this thread, print it off and find a publisher:thumbs_up


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## tcicon (Mar 17, 2010)

Can't hardly wait to hear more! Great job!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Hunting pressured whitetail*

It is common for many of us to have to deal with others when we hunt. If you hunt public ground like I commonly do, you have no control over other hunters but you can capitalize on them being there. I probably look like a stooge the first few days I'm in a new area. You'll see me driving down the road repeatedly and stopping to talk with hunters. A hunter can learn a lot from these little drives and discussions with other hunters. 

I always ask each hunter where they are hunting so I don't interfere with there setup. I usually pack a map and have them show me the general area they are in to avoid them. I listen to their deer stories on sightings and I casually ask them how they are hunting; straight tree stand, calling, baiting, spot and stalk... I ask them what activity the deer they saw where doing; feeding, chasing, breeding, cruising. If they've killed one I ask if they looked at the stomach contents and what was in it. I inquire about the trail they take to get to their stands so I don't go walking down it and spook spoke deer. I always present myself as a hunter with very modest success so that it doesn't threaten them. Naturally I inquire about big buck sightings. You can do this and gain much information without ever going in the woods. You can use this information to plan and implement an effective hunting strategy to maximize your chances of success.

I drive around the entire hunting area several times and look where the hunters are parked and when/where they are entering and leaving the area. Yes, I'm usually doing this at 0500am. You would be surprised at the number of times I have found places on public ground that no one is hunting at all. After I have taken all this information from as many sources as possible review my map and place each hunter and what they are doing on it. I then try to predict how the deer will react.

It makes sense that when you have a group of hunters walking in on one path that all of the deer down wind of them is going to try to escape and that usually means down wind. It also means that once a hunter gets on stand his scent is going to continue to blow down wind and if he is not careful the deer, especially the mature whitetails will have the hunter patterned before the hunter patterns the deer. In other words they learn real quick to avoid the area. I have an example of a scenario where I capitalized on pressured deer to get the opportunity for a shot on a big buck.

There was a logging road in Illinois that ran South to North along the West side of a long narrow 1 mile long vertical block of timber. There was only one parking spot and every hunter had to use this trail to enter the woodlot. The wind was blowing out of the North West as usual so it more or less blowed every hunter scent that walked down that path to get to his stands into the only woodlot they could hunt. In other words they were forced to walk to their stands on the upwind side spooking every deer in the woodlot before their hunt ever started. 

I had saw several shooter bucks enter this woodlot after the guys had went home in the evening so I knew it was being used. I parked in the same lot as the hunters one morning after they had all went up this logging road. I walked down the main road about 1/2 mile and cut up into the woodlot on the down wind side. I wasn't there perhaps 10 minutes when I found a heavily used trail that had running tracks in it. I got down wind of this trail and watched buck after buck come filtering by and move off into the sanctuary of the swamp. I didn't shoot any of them because I was hoping to shoot a Booner. No booners walked by but a few nice 140's did. 

I later found a small timber block that was never hunted that was separate from the main public area. I scouted it and found significant buck sign. I also took note that this little block of timber was the way all of these deer in the main block were escaping to. We were on location 10 days and my friend I went with was crying the blues he wanted to go home. He told me he was shooting the first buck he saw that was 130 or bigger. I stuck him in that woodlot on the downwind side of the timber jammed up in some brush on the ground. He shot a buck and came out of the woods and found me and said please shoot the first buck you see so we can go home. I was bumming because I had the whole month off but understood his request. I had my eye on one of these escape trails from the main body of the public area to this small tract. I reluctantly pulled my climber up and sat down about 7 yards down wind of this little trail. A little while later here comes nice 140 class 240# red coated 8 pointer and stops over to my right. I tried to draw my bow but, " pay attention ", I had not allowed enough slack in my safety harness to get all the way around to shoot. Here it is 30 minutes before dark and my friend should have his buck back at my truck by now and I just blew an opportunity on a nice buck. Yes, I was pissed off. I heard a brush rustling and saw a raccoon about 20 yards away. I drew my bow cussing under my breath and was just about to smoke him when, snap, a twig broke.

I turned to see this basket racked buck walking directly under my stand. I just held on the bottom of his chest and touched the release. The arrow center puched him down through his vitals and lacerated his heart. I found him the next day in a lake and guess what, my friend didn't get his buck and I just burnt my tag. I guess he lost his blood trail into the lake as well. The moral of the story is you can hunt pressured whitetails successfully but you've got to really think about what a deer would do considering all the factors. I've got several of these stories to reinforce what I'm trying to say but supper is ready.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Sorry I didn't get to finish the post above*

I got tangled up with dinner then football practice with the youngest son. What I failed to mention in the last post was I had to walk down the road 1/2 mile and then wade a swamp about 2' deep for a 1/4th of a mile. I then observed some high ground that the deer where using as a bridge through the swamp from the larger public hunting area to the smaller tract of ground which was in essence a sanctuary that went unhunted. To maximize your chances when hunting pressured whitetails one would do well to anticipate escape routes and be on the look out for sanctuarys. Take all the factors into consideration and plan your best attack. I have a little story I wrote that will demonstrate just how easy it can be to capitalize on hunting pressure.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*A story to demonstrate a little thinking can help you score*

I have a story to tell that I hope will prove exactly how a simple plan can be effective. I have a good friend that I hunt with all the time. All summer long he told me about a buck that frequented his property both evening and morning. He was extremely excited about the buck and asked if I wanted to come out to his house to hunt. I really didn’t want to go because I wanted to try for a large buck I had been watching. I decided to go even though the buck was not exactly what I was after from the sounds of the report. I called the night before the hunt to confirm my arrival time for the opener. I arrived about 45 minutes before daylight to a group of excited bow hunters saying they had just saw the deer and it walked into a block of timber just before I arrived. I inquired where everyone was going and it appeared that they all had ladder stands already setup in the woodlot the buck went into. I took note where the buck reportedly entered the woodlot minutes before and the wind direction. The guys told me where all of their stands were located and it became apparent to me that if they walked to those stands the deer was going to wind them.



I asked about how the woodlot laid and what the boundaries of it were. My friend described it as a rectangular block of timber about 40 acres in size bordered on one side by a large open nicely mowed field and on the other side of it was a large overgrown power line with grass and shrubs about knee level high. All of their stands were located along the mowed field because they had been seeing a group of bucks up there in the evenings. I pulled my friend to the side and told him that if he walked to that stand he was going to spook the buck and he needed to go up on that power line. He said that he wanted to hunt his stand because by the time it was daylight the deer would be somewhere else. I asked him if he really wanted me to shoot the buck if I saw it and he replied that he wanted to see it and if I saw it to shoot it. I sat on the tailgate of my truck until I could hear the group of hunters clanking up over the hill to my right toward the field.



I stripped down to my underwear and sprayed down with Carbon Blast head to toe. I pulled on a light pair of camo jeans/Light sweatshirt I usually wear when I’m scouting. I just grabbed my bow/release and laser and darted over to the left toward the power line. I progressed about 200 yards up a steep hill and noticed a flat/bench going around the hill in the direction of my hunting buddies stand. It was a little dry outside and noisy so I took off my shoes and tip toed up toward the flat. The wind was steady from the stands toward my position so I knew the buck would be moving my way soon. As far as I could tell this was the only flat traversing around this hill so in all likelihood the buck would be coming out it. I slipped in behind a heavily leafed over multi floral rose bush and waited for daylight with an arrow knocked and my release on. I double checked my sliding site and it was on 30 yards. It just began to get daylight and I made out the forms of several deer coming my way. Several of them were bucks and one was significantly larger than the rest. I waited until it came to stop to feed on some grass and shot him through both lungs. He ran off toward my friends stand and expired near him. I guess the invitation was open to shoot the deer but I questioned whether or not he really meant it. He had the longest looking face I’ve ever seen. I apologized for shooting the deer and made a mental note that I owe him a deer. The moral of the story is to capitalize on others mistakes by anticipating deer escape routes, learn how to identify travel corridors such as; flat benches in hill country, inside the corner of a field in the woods, low gaps on mountains, ravines traversing an open meadow…. 

Oh, the deer was a main frame 9 point with 4 stickers. I don’t have any pictures of it and I don’t even know if I have the rack or not. I may have given it away?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I like your style.

Thanks for sharing.


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## turkeyinstinct (Apr 4, 2007)

Dean I enjoy reading everyone of you writings, you seem to be the king of the whitetail woods. I hope one day I can out smart deer as well as you do!:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Just some off the wall stuff you need to know*

If there is a mast failure that is good for the hunter but bad for the deer. It concentrates the deer on limited food sources increasing a hunters chances.

In hill country big bucks bed on the downwind side of a hill with the wind at their back with a good view down below them. Frequently they will lay in a depression in the ground behind an uprooted tree or under a bush or behind a log. These beds can be semi permanent and are often located roughly 1/3 the way down the hill from the top. You can positively identify one by seeing the bed barren of grass or sticks and lots of hair in it. If your lucky you'll find rubs of varying age immediatel around the bed. The first thing the old boy will do is stretch and move off to the side and unload a batch of pellets. This is nice to know if your planning an ambush.


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*Various sign*

Dean, you've talked about rubs, scrapes, food sources. In your last post you mentioned deer pellets in passing. What's your thoughts when scouting and you run across deer pellets. Set up close and wait, scout around with 50/75/100 yds? I've heard (and done) various things with these "finds". I'd like your thoughts on the subject.


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## lc12 (Jul 30, 2009)

zap said:


> What are forbes?
> 
> marty


Fancy name for WEEDS!!!! Not kidding you either! This was straight from my Private Land Conservationist.


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## 173BC (Mar 10, 2010)

Whitetail hunting is simple. First you find a good clover field, then you look for one with four leaves, all the while looking for a rabbit feeding there. Pick the four leaf clover, shoot the rabbit and cut it's foot off. Then place a horseshoe in an upright position on your truck seat and sit firmly on top of it. After that, whitetail hunting should be a breeze. It has taken me several years to put all of these techniques together, but near as I can tell, it's gotta be fool proof!


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## Xmaster (Jan 9, 2005)

Dean

very interesting reading. i have just finished catching up.

I, also have been pursuing deer for a long time. the last 5 years i have been hunting in a club, for the first time being in a club. it has been a humbling experience. it is very large, 6000 acres. 4000 of which is very hilly the remainder of it being swamp that has annual flooding. 60 members cut to 50 for this year. i have not killed a buck on this lease yet i usually am able to locate a few and miss, stick, or pass bucks in the early bow season but once the rifle season starts with all the pressure i dont see much. 

i plan to use a lot of your strategies and a lot more scouting this year to become successful. 

Thanks and keep it coming.:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Pick them up and...*



gmark said:


> Dean, you've talked about rubs, scrapes, food sources. In your last post you mentioned deer pellets in passing. What's your thoughts when scouting and you run across deer pellets. Set up close and wait, scout around with 50/75/100 yds? I've heard (and done) various things with these "finds". I'd like your thoughts on the subject.



Roll them between your fingers, smell them and let me know what they taste like and I'll get back to you on that:wink:

No all kidding aside deer droppings concentrated just lets you know deer are spending a significant amount of time at that location whether it be bedding or feeding.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Strategic stand placement, the first post of several on the subject*

To maximize ones chances of success one must strategically place their stands. There are several factors to consider prior to placing your stand. Those factors include; wind direction, stage of the rut, topography, bedding and feeding/watering areas, hunting pressure and weather. Many just place stands based upon one of these factors but in reality you would be much more successful to consider them all to maximize your chances. The first thing to consider would be the stage of the rut. 



In the early pre rut stage (just after the velvet sheds to about 1-2 weeks before the scrapes leaf over) one would do well to hunt and place stands near food/water sources. The stand should be placed downwind of the actual food/water or down wind of the trail leading to the source. I have had better success back tracking a hundred yards or so down the trails the deer are using to gain entrance to the food/water source. I then set my stand up on the down wind side of the trail. Set the stand up as high as possible because traditionally it’s warmer this time of the year and you’ll be sweating and that will increase the likelihood of being picked off. In an earlier post we discussed some potential food sources suck as; white oak acorns, apples, food plots, paw paws…So in essence the primary hunting strategy in the early pre rut is to get a deer is through their belly. Two weeks before the scrapes leaf over things start to get interesting.



The late pre rut period shows an increase in the number of scrapes a hunter will observe and the intensity of damage done to these scrapes. This will signify to the hunter that bucks are starting to switch from food as the primary focus in their life to reproduction. This will require a little different strategy since bucks start to behave differently at this time and especially older bucks. Most of the daylight scrapes worked at this time is by juvenile bucks and doe. The older bucks will work them at night but will usually scent check them down wind during the daylight. So if you’re after a deer just set up on the down wind side of active scrapes but don’t expect to see a mature buck. He will be cruising down wind of the scrapes scent checking them. To find the trails he is using just simply go down wind of the scrapes and look for a faint trail moving through the brush paralleling the scrapes. He will usually make some larger rubs there and you can tell which way he was traveling by the direction of the rubs. I generally find these trails anywhere from 40-150 yards down wind of active scrapes. 

You can also try some serious rattling/decoying at this time because a dominant buck is starting his search for receptive females and is either looking for a fight just to be fighting or looking to fight over a doe. I like to rattle from a ground setup but I see no reason it wouldn’t work from a stand. You could always tie a light rope around your antlers and drop them near the bottom of the tree and shake the cord to mimicking rattling to divert the sound away from your position to decrease the chance of being detected on your perch. Anytime that a buck starts cruising for doe such as the late pre rut period you can pretty well predict he will be keeping a close eye or better said a close scent on the doe. 

He will be cruising all over his territory between doe groups. he will cruise down wind of bedding/feeding/watering areas. Most of his detective work is done with his nose. You can capitalize on this by hunting down wind of scrapes, bedding areas, feeding/watering areas as well as trying to catch him sneaking through a funnel between larger blocks of timber. Hunting during the actual rut requires one to fine tune their strategy.


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*If you say so...*



Dean Bower said:


> Roll them between your fingers, smell them and let me know what they taste like and I'll get back to you on that:wink:
> .


Just following your advise, Dean.

FYI: Tastes like chicken. :set1_pot: 
(think I'll stick with venison)


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Get in there as soon as the leaves are off*



Xmaster said:


> Dean
> 
> very interesting reading. i have just finished catching up.
> 
> ...



Find the high ground out in the swamp, if there is any. That's where they usually hide when the crap hits the fan! A good pair of hip waders!!


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## turkeyinstinct (Apr 4, 2007)

Dean, if you dont mind me asking how far do you take scent control? Several of my hunting buddies seem to think I take it to far when I run a empty cycle with scent killer before ever washing my hunting clothes and the clothes I wear from the shower to the truck. 

Do you focus more on the wind and location then being as scent free as possible?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I'll tell it like it is*



turkeyinstinct said:


> Dean, if you dont mind me asking how far do you take scent control? Several of my hunting buddies seem to think I take it to far when I run a empty cycle with scent killer before ever washing my hunting clothes and the clothes I wear from the shower to the truck.
> 
> Do you focus more on the wind and location then being as scent free as possible?


If I'm ground hunting which means Stalking, calling, standing in a strategic location, I take good measure to keep clean by; showering with scent free soaps and spraying down with Scent reducing agents like Carbon Blast, HS Scents. My clothes are always washed in scent free soap and dried all together and stored together in a scent proof container. Now always when I'm stalking I walk with my nose into the wind or why bother? I always plan my stalking, ground hunting based upon wind direction. Now things get really serious if I'm on a kill set. That is when I'm 100% sure I have a certain buck I'm after narrowed down to a specific site and time he is going to go under my stand or by my hiding spot. In that scenario I go to the ultra extremes and brush my teeth in baking soda, shower with scent free soap, apply scent free deodorant. I spray carbon blast all over my entire body after I've reached my destination without my clothes on. I allow time to air dry. I pay special attention to my hair and hands, It sort of makes you look like a coal miner when your done. I then have a designated " kill set " scent lock ghillie/leafy wear suit I put on. This suit has never seen perspiration or odor. I keep it in a separate stand alone scent containment bag that I carry to the stand. I use the same suit for about two years ( perhaps twice a year ) and then it gets booted back to my regular hunting gear and a replacement is purchased. I never purchase a scent free garment that has been exposed to air or worse yet in a store showroom for an extended time. The clothes I just took off go in a scent free bag and are stored in my daypack for use when I done standing.You will never go wrong by over doing the scent control.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Hunting the rut and fine tuning stand placement*

The peak of the rut is a very exciting time to be in the woods. You’ll see lots of bucks chasing doe all over the place. You’ll see mature whitetail buck in the weirdest places such as in the middle of a yard or standing in the middle of a crop field at mid day. This is the time of the year when it pays off to be on stand all day long because the buck run non stop. The only downside to all this activity is the dominant buck will often sequester a doe in an isolated thicket and not come out for days and only if the doe leads him out or she goes out of estrus. To maximize your chances you need to fine tune your stand placement and hunting strategy’s.



During the peak of the rut there is usually lots of chasing going on. They have abandoned their scrapes and are just running wild.That means that deer will be running through the woods all day. A hunter would be wise to play the odds and reposition his stand to one that takes into the topography of the land. Deer tend to take the path of least resistance so that means they will be more likely to cross low gaps/saddles on long ridge tops or through a ravine or low area in a field. Places I like to focus on are narrow bands of brush connecting two larger blocks of timber. A near estrus doe will more or less run all day with sometimes several buck in hot pursuit. Place those stands on the downwind side of the narrow band of brush. Keep in mind that thermals tend to rise in the morning and settle at in the evening. You can also find a saddle in a long mountain and setup in some fashion down wind with a good view of the saddle. They definitly use these low gaps and rank high on my list of priorities come the rut in mountain country. You can also use calls at this time but realize that you'll probably only get responses from less dominant bucks unless you catch a dominant buck between doe. 

You can try some light rattling mixed in with some decoys for some down right exciting action. This is a time when your more than likely going to get a positive response to estrus based scents. Spend all day in the woods and don't be afraid to try to pull a commando on a buck with a doe cornered in a thicket. His gaurd is more than let down, he is stupid. I once shot a doe in estrus and had to watch a 170 class 10 pointer repeatedly rake her hind quarters with his massive white rack trying to get her up. I could only stand and watch since I had already burnt my tag on another buck. The buck below was so stupid ( dead in the middle of the rut on a hot doe ) that I shot and grazed his back from 20 yards and he ran up the hill 20 yards and looked back at the doe that didn't budge while I knocked another arrow and put one through the boiler room. Look close by the bungie cord and you can see the laceration from the first shot


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## SplashOfPee (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks for this. Some is common knowledge but more is great knowledge that should be refreshed for everyone. I am printing this off and sharing it with my friends. I hope I dont infringe on any copyrights!!!???!!??!

Thank you very much for your time and effort on this. This is a great read.

Maybe the mods can take all of his posts and keep it as a sticky or something.

Why do you look so mad in your last pic?:wink:


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## deerheaven (Apr 27, 2003)

thanks Dean...love reading about how too hunt and scout....:thumbs_up


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## rcates (Sep 23, 2008)

good thread. cant wait til season starts


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*This was some pretty serious stuff for me at the time*

Why do you look so mad in your last pic?:wink:[/QUOTE]

I used to be ate up with it and if I managed to take a 140-160 I was kicking myself for not capitalizing on another big one. Guys dont get hung up in it like an obsession and for heavens sake don't forget to celebrate and reflect back after a successful hunt. That explains the face that is dead serious because that's what it was. After a month in the woods I went back to work for a vacation. I'm not doing that anymore. I'm going to relax and enjoy myself. I used to wake up in a cold sweat thinking about a certain buck like an obsessed idiot.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I used to get so upset with myself*

I'd get so mad for shooting a certain buck I couldn't stand it. The little buck below I watched for 2 years and shot him out of stupidity when he was 3.5. I was thinking to much and let greed get in the way of sound judgement. This buck lived near my home and I have a group of guys that cruise the woods late at night on 4 wheelers. I'd set on the porch late at night and hear them driving around then hear the rifle shots. I shot him out of greed for fear that the poachers would get him. I still haven't forgot that, the poachers and others will get the deer you've been watching and hoping will turn into a real trophy but if you shoot him he has no chance of making it.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*This was the little bucks father two years older*

Don't be afrid to let a buck walk if your after a trophy. This is the little buck aboves father when he was 4.5-5.5 Only one to two years older and he would have been spectacular!


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## jayc1471 (Dec 14, 2008)

Awesome thread Dean..... Thank you for sharing.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The moral of my last few post*

You can't kill a mature buck if you shoot a little one, Sounds simple doesn't it?? Sometimes holding out for something you want is easier said then done.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The post rut stand placement*

Hunt food sources plain and simple both early and late in the day. If a storm front is on the forcast hunt in the middle of the day. Hunt where the deer are feeding which should be fairly easy to decipher. It will be where you are seeing them, usually in; greenfields, picked over corn fields, green briar and honey suckle patches. Again hunt the actual food source or back down an access trail/travel corridor a ways.


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## 173BC (Mar 10, 2010)

Hey Dean, are you independently wealthy? Because the way I see it you could have written a book on hunting instead of giving up all your secrets on an open forum, and made a bit of $$$ to take yourself and your son on some pretty nice hunting trips. 

Maybe it's not too late, make your book, I'll buy a copy myself. Of coarse now that I came up with the idea, I'm gonna need a cut, maybe 1.3-1.5% plus commission on sales I can line up this side of the boarder. 

Just a thought.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

Dean, good job. :thumbs_up

I certainly have not been a fan of your's, but credit goes where it is due.

mary


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## 22Mag (Aug 31, 2009)

Glad to see your opeing the eyes of these fellow at'ers Deano!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Thanks " Mary "*



zap said:


> Dean, good job. :thumbs_up
> 
> I certainly have not been a fan of your's, but credit goes where it is due.
> 
> mary


It's hard to read a man over the internet, rest assured we'd get along in person.:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I was actually scheming on one*



173BC said:


> Hey Dean, are you independently wealthy? Because the way I see it you could have written a book on hunting instead of giving up all your secrets on an open forum, and made a bit of $$$ to take yourself and your son on some pretty nice hunting trips.
> 
> Maybe it's not too late, make your book, I'll buy a copy myself. Of coarse now that I came up with the idea, I'm gonna need a cut, maybe 1.3-1.5% plus commission on sales I can line up this side of the boarder.
> 
> Just a thought.


I'd been talking it over with DR David Samual and he's said he'd point me in the right direction. I just haven't set down to pull it all together. The information is in there it's just getting it out in a reasonably entertaining and educational presentation.


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## 173BC (Mar 10, 2010)

Dean Bower said:


> I'd been talking it over with DR David Samual and he's said he'd point me in the right direction. I just haven't set down to pull it all together. The information is in there it's just getting it out in a reasonably entertaining and educational presentation.


So I take it this Dr fella will be getting my cut? Oh well, maybe you'll have atomic relief section I can still get in on.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Sticks in the mud?*

You might be asking yourself what is he talking about? I'm referring to things that happen while your hunting you just don't count on that threaten to ruin your hunt. I can think of several things that really put a damper on your best laid plans. 

A heat wave around the normal hunting time really changes the way deer behave and how we should hunt them. These heat waves/warmer than normal temperatures during the traditional rut lead to what I refer to as a trickle rut. This happens when us hunters can't positively identify the various stages of the rut from pre rut to the rut and finally the post rut. Every year you hear stories of hunters not being able to identify the peak of the rut. What happens here is that all rutting activity still takes place but it is spread out over a longer period of time and there is no real peak to this activity as we normally see. Much of this activity happens at night when us hunters are back at camp. I have learned to pay attention to everything I see both day and night to provide clues as to what is going on in the deer woods.

I camp many times in parks and places where the deer are protected and I've learned to use them as my study group for planning my strategy. I sometimes will take a day just to study these deer and then apply what I've learned in my hunting area. What I've learned is that there is absolutely no need to be in the woods unless your board because even though it's the traditional peak of the rut the deer are bedded down through the heat of the day. I recommend hunting the first and last 3 hours of daylight. The middle of the day is a bust. The only luck I've had on these hot summer days is on two man slow drives where you more or less pick out a long narrow band of brush and have one man go upwind and ever so slowly walk with the wind at their back toward a man setting up down wind along a likely looking escape route. I have done this several times successfully but the key is for the driver to move slowly and let the wind carry his scent to the deer and let that drive them. He can tip toe back and forth still hunting with a light pair of sneakers and work his way toward his partner. Larger mature bucks like to bed on the down wind side of points and when it's hot outside they frequently drop off into the valley where it's cooler. 

I hunt an area in Southern W.Va where there is a field on top of the ridge where doe and small bucks frequent just about dusk. The larger buck hold back in the woods until well after dark then move up on these hot nights to scent check doe. They still chase them but most of the chasing takes place at night. It was exceptionally hot one year and the rut was dead. I more or less hunted early and late and scouted through the middle of the day, I'm too high strung to sleep. I was tip toeing back down this trail leading from the meadow to the point that dropped off to the cool valley below. Just as I was about to reach the summit of the hill where I would be able to see the hillside reaching down to this valley I brought my progress to a crawl. I looked over the bank as I crested the ridge and looked straight into the eyes of a 140 class 10 point. The only thing the deer could see of me was my forehead and eyes and I had on a headnet so my face outline was broken. I took two steps back and knocked an arrow and came to full draw. I slowly crept forward until I could see his entire body at 7 yards and put one through his chest from the front. I'm sure he was on his way to check the doe about 1/2 mile farther up the trail behind me. I knew there was a buck using this trail because I saw a dog run one up earlier in the day. I got to looking at the tracks on this trail and they appeared to be made by what was the same buck and the tracks were of varying age. I took the chance to sneak down this trail near dark and intercept this buck as he came out of the cool valley after a hot day and it paid off. So on extremely hot indian summer days during the traditional rut you may have to focus your hunts both early and late. You can move away from your primary hunt site through the center of the day and do some two men drives. I'll cover heavy rain and times of good mast production on a future post.


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## Bacon&Bone (Apr 25, 2010)

Dean,

Fantastic information and thank you very much. This is what this forum is all about and could use more of. I am enjoying this and learning from it. Again thank you.


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## Flydown (Oct 6, 2009)

Can someone Clone Dean and send him down south to show me how to consistently kill mature Florida bucks? 

Anyone???


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## 176"buck (Jul 7, 2010)

Good read.No matter how many years you`ve hunted you can always learn alittle something from others.
As for hunting where they live ,that is a must.I have several 150-170" bowkills from the midwest on self guided hunts.I have 0 150-170" bucks from GA where I hunt 90 percent of the time.I have the same hunting ability any where I hunt.Can't killem where they aint.


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## motoXcowboy (Feb 2, 2008)

I've learned alot. thanks


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## ETheiss (Apr 30, 2010)

Dean

Have enjoyed following your life-shared experience of deer hunting.
Thank you for taking the time to compile this information to be shared with other hunters.
Hope you won’t mind a question.

Hunting deer when there is a full moon phase seems difficult because daytime deer activity seems to have greatly diminished everywhere. It appears the deer have gone to a nocturnal routine and seldom seen during daytime. 

Would appreciate your insight and how you would offset this condition to be productive?


Ed


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Good question and I'm not sure I can answer*



ETheiss said:


> Dean
> 
> Have enjoyed following your life-shared experience of deer hunting.
> Thank you for taking the time to compile this information to be shared with other hunters.
> ...



I too for years believed this theory that deer during full moons go nocturnal. Well during some of those fitful nights when I was in rut ( couldn't sleep waking up sweating and dreaming about big bucks ) I decided to take some walks. I have better than average night vision I guess developed from years of walking to and from my hunting site without the use of a flashlight through heavily forested terrain. I would walk to secluded meadows and places I normally see deer and this may surprise many of you but there was no more activity at night than you would expect. Yes there was a flury of activity from dusk until about 11pm and the woods was quite again. When I was younger I would just take a sleeping bag and a tarp and cuddle up against a log back in the woods. Trust me when I say you'll learn to identify sounds in the woods if you do this. Again it appeared the deer where a lot like us. They ate up until about 11pm and then laid back down until a little before dawn and then got right back to feeding. I love to be able to hear again like I did when I was a younger. The sound a group of bucks made chasing a doe through the mountains is incredible at night when all is quiet. Oh, the sounds of a bear whoofing/puffing and popping his teeth is equally entertaining or the sounds of a pack of coyotes ripping a deer to pieces or as in one case a very unhappy bobcat. 

How do you couteract this?, I'm not convinced there is anything to counteract. I have still had fairly good success during full moons. Keep in mind that the answer to your question may not be the fact that it's a full moon but that the peak of the rut ( in my hunting areas ) actually happens in two weeks after the first full moon after the autumn equinox so in reality your hunting when it is not the peak of the rut and that in itself will account for less daylight sightings. You need to go back and figure out what the deer are doing and then apply the appropriate hunting strategy. So you might ask when that happens this year?

The fall equinox occurs September 23 this year. The first full moon will be 1 month later that puts you at October 23rd ( probably some serious scraping going down about this time ) two weeks after October the 23rd would be Nov 5-7 and that should be the peak of the rut in central USA. Keep in mind that certain things ****** the rut and may slow it down a bit like an indian summer. Again a little later in the south ( perhaps the next month ) and a little earlier in the North. I've been as high as Illinois and there might be a several days differerence between Ohio/WVa but not many. I can't vouch for Canada, I've never been there but if I was guessing I'd say early November. Ok Canada guys when is your peak of the traditional rut? I'm guessing real early in November perhaps Nov 1-10th??.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*To a trophy hunter, your words speak volumes!*



176"buck said:


> Good read.No matter how many years you`ve hunted you can always learn alittle something from others.
> As for hunting where they live ,that is a must.I have several 150-170" bowkills from the midwest on self guided hunts.I have 0 150-170" bucks from GA where I hunt 90 percent of the time.I have the same hunting ability any where I hunt.Can't killem where they aint.


I spent 20 years trying to kill a big buck where none existed because I was delusional and bit to trustworthy on others reports of seeing big deer. I can't possibly recall the number of times someone would call me and just say they saw a monster buck and asked if I wanted to come give it a shot. I'd kill the deer and lets just say it wasn't as big as it was reported to be. My middle brother Mark called me to say he had a gaint buck cornered in a woodlot. He asked if I wanted to come out and participate in a deer drive. It was gun season but I took my bow. This wood lot was about 200 yards long and roughly 100 yards wide bordered on all sides by fields or a power line right of way. We had three guys circle around to the down wind side and tip toe through the brush toward the standers one of which was me. We had a couple guys covering the top of the hill with large caliber flat shooting rifles since there was a huge field up there the deer could break across. We had one guy cover the bottom of the hill with a lever action 35 Remington since if a shot was presented it would be close. I took up a stand directly in front of the drivers on the only flat that traversed the hill. I tucked in behind a rose bush and set my sight down on 10 yards because that's how close the deer was going to be when he popped out. Two minutes into the hunt here comes two bucks. I draw and see a 16" wide 9 pointer and a small six point present at 5 yards. I placed the pin on his chest and leaned on the trigger and came to my senses. I let the bow down and jumped out from behind the brush and yelled at the bucks. They turned inside out and exploded up over the hill and directly I heard my nephew ( who by the way reminds me of myself ) break loose with his gun and take the buck. I asked my brother if that was the buck and sure enough it was. Anyway, if your after a large buck take the time and effort to hunt where they are known to grow. You CAN'T kill what is not there! That was my first advice on this thread and I'm sticking to it! The picture below is from bucks from my early years killing these " whoppers " everyone was telling me about in my Northern W.Va hunting area. We only have several deer North of Beckley W.Va that make the record book every year. The chances of taking one of those deer are very unrealistic and one would do better to go where there are huntable numbers of mature bucks or you will always be looking and wondering why you can't kill one. The below are victims of my early years of whack and stack. What a waste of time. The second photo is of bucks I started to take after I branched out to better areas. The better areas I hunted the higher the quality of bucks. Many of these deer in the second photo where as smart as my largest of bucks I've taken but their genetics where not like Illinois or Ohio or otherwise they would be a good 20-40" bigger. Why I'm telling you this is because I want you to know that even though you might be a good hunter please don't be foolish like me and waste your whole life trying to kill a Booner in poor quality locations. I tried it and it doesn't work. I just wished I was born in Illinois/Iowa or kansas and I'd have some big deer by now. Go ahead and make your plans to go hunt these states because trust me when I say they are there in huntable numbers! These two pictures should show my progression from hunting around my home to branching out to better areas in the middle photo to the mounts on the wall from the best areas I've hunted.


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## ETheiss (Apr 30, 2010)

Dean

Here in Southern Ontario, Canada the peak of the rut usually falls around the 1ST part of November. 

Temperatures can range from freezing in the morning to 65+F in the afternoon. The reason I ask about the full moon phase is that deer seem to usually disappear during the day. But as soon the full moon shifts out of phase the deer sightings during the day is like WOW where did you come from. Now if there is a storm front during the phase yes deer movement also escalates until the storm passes. Also once the full moon phase is over the deer movement seems to really begin, as deer are being shot everywhere. Last year 2-teams of 2-hunters hunting separate farms all tagged out in one evening. 

My hunting partner and I suspect a lot of the deer are just hanging around dry cedar swamp areas where most of them bed. We are reluctant to move in on them for fear of them relocating to another farm area. 
After some lengthy discussions and for this years hunt if a full moon appears we are going to try to move within 100-yds down wind of their bedding area to hopefully increase our odds. Other than that we don’t really know what to try with this quandary.

Appreciate your replies/comments, Thanks.


Ed


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Sounds like a plan*



ETheiss said:


> Dean
> 
> Here in Southern Ontario, Canada the peak of the rut usually falls around the 1ST part of November.
> 
> ...


Don't be afraid to experiment, that's how you learn.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Hunting heavy rain*

Not many guys go out hunting when the rain is really coming down and for good reason. My daddy always did say I wasn't smart enough to get out of the rain. I try to always take a negative in the deer woods and turn it into an opportunity.

Heavy rains can and does slow deer movement. However it also sends deer to predictable hiding spots and they have a tendancy to let their gaurds down. Heavy rains also deadens sounds that normally would spook deer. I'm going suggest that you get out of your treestand and still hunt through suspected bedding areas such as in pine thickets and laurel patches. 

Prior to beginning your stalk take into consideration the lay of the land and realize that deer will try to seek areas of shelter such as the locations aforementioned and on sheltered hillsides and hollows from the wind. I have seen deer hide in brush piles and under rock outcroppings. The going can be miserable but highly rewarding and profitable because they generally are not very alert as long as the wind is not heavy and then they are as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I have hunted during these down pours successfully many times. I always wear light rain gear such as frogs togs, gortex or similar material.

I know of an area where during heavy rain the deer escape to. It is a little protected bowl on the South East facing slope ( opposite the way the wind normally comes in my area ) that is covered up with mature hemlock trees. Hemlocks are small pine trees that have a fairly heavy canopy of needles. These needles usually stop the rain from getting to the ground for a while during rain storms. It is very common for it to remain fairly high and dry in there even though it has been raining for a while. 

One specific week in November several years back I got sick of setting in camp waiting for the weather to clear so I broke out the Walls waterproof ( waterpruff!!! ) rain gear and went off for a stalk through this area. I walked around above the area on the hill until I could positively identify the wind direction. I glassed wthe tree tops to see which way the wind was blowing them and dropped off into the valley below and circled in behind this calm hemlock covered thicket. I kept stopping and reminding myself to slow down to a snails pace and spot the buck before he spots me.

I had been sneaking along for about 2 hours when I spooted at first what I thought was a fox squirrel but it wasn't. It was a deer facing directly away from me and he occassionally would twitch his tail side to side. I could tell it was a big buck but wasn't sure how big. I eventually worked my way closer but off to the side. The buck was bedded on a grown over logging road heavily covered by hemlocks. I dropped off this logging road and closed the gap just keeping my head up visible to the deer. I closed to about 30 yards and waited. The deer eventually stood and shook all the water off like and old dog and I double lunged him. He went about 40 yards and piled up and this deer ended up being one of my more difficuly drags. Note, even though I was wearing rain gear you can see from the picture I got plenty wet but it was worth it!:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Reading deer behavior*

Over the years I've learned how to read a deer's behavior and body language. I can use what I've learned to predict how the deer is feeling, what he is about to do, whether or not any other deer are in the area and if that deer is a buck or a doe. This comes in handy if your like me with bad hearing plus it's always useful to know if the deer is about to spook or if your watching a nice buck and want to be sure he is a dominant buck. I don't need to hear if I have a deer in front of me doing the listening for me.

The ears tell you if a deer is listening to something that has it's interest. They will point toward the sound that has their interest. If your moving around in your stand and you have a deer looking away from you but his ears are pointing toward your position I'd highly recommend to be quite because he hears you he is just not too concearned just yet. Let those ears swivel toward your position and then he hears a noise to reinforce his concern and then you'll get stage two of the alert which will be a stare. One more noise or a movement and the deer is gone or stage three takes over. 

If it's doe she will try the old head weave and bobble followed by the high step toward your position then the single foot stomp. If her tail raises and the hairs flare she is about to spin and trot off stiff legged with her tail going side to side. She will often stop just before or after reaching safety of a woodlot and turn around to have another look before prancing on into the woods. If it's a buck he will often keep his tail tucked tight if he's in cover and weave his head side to side and then finally take a lone foot stomp. He may repeat this several times before he turns to move off. If it's an older buck and he has positively identified you and he's in the brush he will rarely raise his tail but instead keep it tucked tight and will run off low to the ground and fast. If he's in an open field for some reason they seem to prefer to raise that tail and bound off in high leaps. Sometimes they stop for a last second look but not always. 

A doe with her ears laid flat when she is around a food source means only one thing and that is there is another doe nearby that she is trying to intimidate into not coming any closer. If she is eating or feeding in the brush and you see her suddenly stoop down and turn her ears back but not flat there is definitly a buck very near. If your watching a good buck wandering around in front of you feeding and notice his tail is tucked tight and he keeps looking in a certain direction rest assure there is definitely a more agressive and dominant buck the way he is staring. You can tell if your looking at the dominaant buck in your area by the way he carries himself. He has a bit of a swagger with his tail at half mast and in the presence of other bucks he often has his ears laid half back and stares at the other bucks. The passive and submissve bucks will look back wide eyed and they will often stoop down like a doe. If you see two bucks of similar size in the same area and the are posturing at each other by walking sideways with their hair on their back roughed up they are fixing to square off for a pushing match. 

If your calling a buck with a grunt tube and have a decoy set out and that buck starts licking his lips and walking sideways go ahead and get ready to shoot because he is definitly coming. A deer snorting is a warning for other deer that a predator has been winded. It puts all members of the herd on an all points bulletin to be on the lookout for a predator and to blow if they confirm it and the whole herd is gone. A steady twitching of the tail means all is well. A doe walking with her tail at half mast and roughed up hair on her back is one to keep an eye on or more appropraite an eye behind. The old buck or bucks are probably following. Watch her eyes and she will tell you where he is at.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Don't be afraid to take a chance, mix it up!*

I'm going to suggest that a hunter would have better success if he took the chance to try some different hunting strategies to maximize his chances. I realize that the majority of whitetails are taken from tree stands and for good reason. However, only a very small percentage of the deer I've taken has come from above. I also find hunting from a tree stand very boring. I've learned to use various other hunting strategies to successfully fill my tag. Hunting methods that can be used are; calling, baiting, spot and stalk, still hunting and drives just to mention a few off the top of my head. Again I feel stronly that many handcuff themselves by sticking to one particular type of hunting. I will attempt to cover all the various types of hunting I just mentioned. The first would be taking advantage of opportunities or freelancing. 

One would be wise to advantage of any situation. Lets say you were driving to your hunting location and you spot a group of bucks chasing a doe during the peak of the rut. This ground you are allowed to hunt, will say it's within the boundaries of public ground. Most guys would stop and glass the deer and move off to go set in their treestand. I'm going to suggest you park your vehicle ASAP and get the heck out and evaluate the situation. Look at the probable travel corridors the breeding group will use and devise a plan to intercept these deer. What do you have to lose?? You may be able to successfully get a shot off. Dont be afraid to change your plan at the drop of a hat. This brings to memory a deal where I was hunting separtate from a good friend but nearby. 


A breeding group was spotted which included two fairly good buck for our state. My friend hunted the first day and managed to take the larger of the bucks and he went home after we got the buck out of the woods. He reported that he shot the largest buck but that an near equally impressive deer was with the group. I had been hunting another large 170 class 10 point about a 1/2 mile away but realized this was an active breeding group and I couldn't pass on the opportunity to shoot the buck. When they are in a breeding group if the doe doesn't spook you can usually just walk up on them and shoot one. They seem oblivious to their surroundings and is about the only time of the year a dominant buck lets his gaurd down. 

I had planned to walk back along this long narrow ridge about one mile long and setup down wind of a saddle and wait for the breeding group to pass through it. This saddle had roughly a 150' drop from the top of the ridge. This doesn't seem significant but deer seem to travel the path of least resistance. So more or less what this breeding group was doing was holding the same elevation as the bottom of the saddle and running up and down this ridge and then crisscrossing back and forth through this saddle all day long. The hunt was sort of anticlimatic. I reached the location and just had arrived and heard brush breaking down over the hill. The doe popped out first followed by the buck. One well placed shot and it was all over but the crying for the old buck. I actually badly miss judged this buck. I thought he was of Boone and Crocket size. I was let down when I realized he was far smaller than what I thought. His body was small and that made his rack look huge. Oh well still a good buck and don't be afraid to attack/pull a commando on a breeding group of whitetails. Their gaurd is let down and it should be fairly easy to stalk up on them and get a shot.:tongue: The below two bucks I pulled the commando on. They both had no idea I was anywhere near them.


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## tdmoe (Oct 12, 2009)

Who is this guy again ??


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## ETheiss (Apr 30, 2010)

Dean

Following your threads has been enjoyable and rewarding. 
Your post on reading deer behavior has been enlightening and educational.
So much so I have copied your posts into Microsoft word document for easy reference.
So far 18-pages with no pictures. Hope you don’t mind copying of your posts for a reference source.

When I 1st started reading your posts you made mention of being obsessive at the start but as time passed I now see it more as a passion than obsessive. A passion that you want to share with others in helping them to experience it through success.

I am not a lifetime experienced deer hunter as I only started to hunt deer around 2000 and am happy my partner who has hunted deer since his late teens (almost 50-years now) took me under his wings to get me started.
Your posts also reflects a favorite saying that to me holds value.
“I want to be a hunter with many years of experience and not a hunter with 1-years experience many times over”.

Hope there is more to come.


Ed


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## mattjroth (Jul 13, 2010)

Loving this thread


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Thank you and copy all you like*



ETheiss said:


> Dean
> 
> Following your threads has been enjoyable and rewarding.
> Your post on reading deer behavior has been enlightening and educational.
> ...


Honest to goodness, I just want to help you guys have a better experience. My boys don't hunt so I have to pass it on to someone. I'll keep posting stuff as I think of it and good luck to all of you this year.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I'll cover baiting/supplements with the next thread*

It's not a popular subject with many but is legal, productive and can be benificial to the deer herd if done correctly. It is the only way many can hunt effectively in certain areas. I'll explain later, I've got football with the youngest. I had a little conversation with an anti hunter Peta lady that went pretty well. I think I may have got her attention.


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## BLan (Aug 16, 2010)

Having grown up hunting deer in Southern Ohio Hills and Valley's and West Central Ohio Farms and Woodlots then moving to NC 8 years ago, I've had to change a great deal about how I hunt. 

I just signed up today and started reading through your thread. You've brought a lot of things back to me that I've long over-looked or forgotten. Thank you for taking the time to post. I'll continue to follow this thread.


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks for the help Dean, this is better than any magazine iv'e read.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I've hunted NC a little myself*



BLan said:


> Having grown up hunting deer in Southern Ohio Hills and Valley's and West Central Ohio Farms and Woodlots then moving to NC 8 years ago, I've had to change a great deal about how I hunt.
> 
> I just signed up today and started reading through your thread. You've brought a lot of things back to me that I've long over-looked or forgotten. Thank you for taking the time to post. I'll continue to follow this thread.


 Welcome to At, there are some good people on here. I hunted Gates County up by the Great Dismal Swamp back in the 80-90's.


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

Good stuff. This guy knows what he's talking about. I know it's impossible to really get it "all" down, but you're doing a great job. I know the obsession you speak of as well, and am glad you will enjoy things more from now on


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## SplashOfPee (Aug 4, 2009)

To to top for the noobs


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Baiting*

When I was growing up baiting was taboo like running dogs with deer. My oldest brother greatly influenced my hunting beliefs and he wasn't muck on bait and dogs. That's sort of ironic now that my home state has since legalized baiting and my brother enjoys throwing out some corn to watch the wildlife. For many seniors and older hunter that aren't able to get out a little pile of corn will draw in all kinds of wildlife to observe. Some corn or other attractions placed out by a hunter can draw game out of their normal hiding spots so that one can have a chance to take one.

Places like the Great dismal swamp where deer are loaded but come daylight they go back in the swamp where nothing but snakes and otters will go. In Southern W.Va the deer population is extremely low and it's fairly common to not see a deer for several days. Some locals the deer population is high and you'll have landowners not allow hunting on their property and then complain about to many deer. Some cities are over run with deer and are looking to draw them into small places where they can safely be taken. Some hunters like to take out younger hunters and want them to have a productive trip in hopes of planting a seed of interest in the outdoors. Placing out bait can accomplish all these goals if done properly with some planning and common sense. I have since learned that baiting can be an effective tool to accomplish many objectives and as long as you don't have an active transmitable disease within the herd it will cause no harm.

I initiated a fairly agressive feeding program in my backyard around 1996. I was the only person feeding the deer in my area because many missed that the regulations just deleted the illegal to bait deer in the regulations and never pointed it out to the public. I fed initially about 5 pounds a night and worked up to roughly 40 pounds a night and had as many as 19 deer coming at one time. I have a nice sanctuary in behind my house and I was able to successfully pull in several bucks that managed to escape the brown it's down policy in my area. The largest buck taken in my area prior to the baiting stations I set up was a 120 class buck that weghed about 150 pounds. Within two years I saw tremendous results and we routinely take bucks 120 -my biggest to date 175".


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I wasn't done with the above post, I just got sidetracked*

So I've said you can put inches on bucks pretty easy. You also put weight on them. My average buck prior to supplemental feeding was about 135 pounds field dressed and that has moved up to 165 and if it's an older buck well over 200 on the hoof. We actually had one 146" that went a solid 208 on official scales field dressed. Baiting is a good way to draw in deer from posted areas to locals you can hunt. You don't have to hunt over the bait unless you want. I always backtrack from bait sites a ways and then hunt. 

In some areas like large swamps and areas of vast tracts of land baiting will allow you to draw them out during legal shooting hours if you program your feeders correctly. I always start with night time feeding until right before the season and then I gradually bump the feeding times closer to dusk and dawn. I don't do much feeding after about 0800 because you end up just feeding squirrels and turkey. Try to get your feed times to be about 1 hour before dusk and an hour after dawn.. The other wildlife also benifit from feedings. My fox squirrels look like their on steroids and instead of having 1 litter a year some of them have had three. 

I never had any turkeys to take up residence around my home, I now have a few. I don't hunt turkey much but I still enjoy just watching them. I do have a nice ladder stand set up about 60 yards from my feeder. This is not for me but if I have a friend that wants to take a kid or an older debilitated guy that can't get around I ask them to set there and shoot one of the deer. I'm not to worried about disease transmission unless I hear of deer starting to show up dead. An area close to my home was struck by the blue tongue a few years back. I immediately stopped feeding and to my knowledge none of the deer I'm feeding were effected.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Any request or topics?*

Feel free to post up anything your interested in hearing about. I've got several request ( reading topo's, hunting fields, and sneaky travel corridors ) via PM that I'll discuss later.


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## dale9805 (Jul 29, 2010)

know anything about hunting forest with clearcuts and logging roads?


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## KYBowhunter89 (Sep 21, 2008)

Your discussion of hill country bucks and there bedding was very interesting and spot on from everything I have heard. 

With all of the options for bedding in hill country, big woods settings, what, if any, are some of the reliable factors that you look for when predicting buck bedding? Besides the 1/3 rule, leeward side of the ridge/point and good back cover. 

Also, what have you noticed the bucks to typically do when leaving their bed in the evening. Where are they normally heading first? I am asking this for the dates from Oct 1-Latter part of Pre-rut.


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## jporlier (Nov 19, 2004)

*Rut timing.*

Dean-

About your theory on rut timing. 

A couple years ago the Missouri DNR did a survey of birthing dates for fawns state wide and found the majority of fawns were born on or very near the same day. Over the course of something like 5 years this peak day for fawn births never varied by more than one day. Given the birthing day, you could track back to the single(s) peak breeding day. 

This study seems to conflict with your theory of a rut that could vary by weeks depending on the moon phase that year. 

What are you thoughts? Are you 100% sold on the moon trigger?

Thx for the info, there's some good stuff here.


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## St8shooter (Jan 17, 2008)

*Bedding*

Dean please go further in depth about bedding, be it buck or doe bedding areas and what to look for. If you could please explain some of the common characteristics of mature buck bedding areas and habbits associated with mature bucks and bedding. Also could you explain some good doe bedding areas and some effective ways of hunting them during the rut. Thanks.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Yes, I'm fairly confident I can help answer this*



dale9805 said:


> know anything about hunting forest with clearcuts and logging roads?


I've hunted extensively around clearcuts but it will be a longer response so I'm going to answer the next one since I don't have much time right now but I'll get back to it or remind me ( too many blows to the head ).


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## Brandon324 (Oct 12, 2007)

jporlier said:


> Dean-
> 
> About your theory on rut timing.
> 
> ...



I know this is a question for Dean but I would like to piggyback on it. I (and many others) believe that the rut is triggered by the hours of daylight, which would explain the consistency found in the Missori study. Some folks argue that cloudy days would affect this but the UV light still penetrates the clouds. What say you about the theory of a photo period triggering the rut as opposed to moon phase?


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*A topic suggestion*

Dean, you've done a commendable job on sharing your wisdom in this thread. Lot's of great information on pursuing our whitetail dreams. Perhaps you can share some tracking techniques. I have seen hunters ruin their chance of tracking the animal by stampeding all over the very ground that held any possible blood trail or sign. Getting an opportunity to draw down on an animal is a heart racing, blood pumping experience that keeps us coming back. I've seen too many "lost" deer before the trail even started due to mistakes in finding a blood trail or other sign. Just a thought. I'm sure many out here can benefit from how to track/find their quarry after the shot.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Bedding area in relationships to bucks and activities*



St8shooter said:


> Dean please go further in depth about bedding, be it buck or doe bedding areas and what to look for. If you could please explain some of the common characteristics of mature buck bedding areas and habbits associated with mature bucks and bedding. Also could you explain some good doe bedding areas and some effective ways of hunting them during the rut. Thanks.


You obviously have did some reading on your own. Yes, mature bucks think and act entirely differently than immature buck. They have learned to bed in locations where it is next to impossible to approach their bed without being detected. When I used to rifle hunt extensively I had a fairly successful way of taking older bucks which I think you can use this information to apply to bowhunting. I used to wait for a good snow and walk and glass points about 1/3 of the way down a mountain on the downwind side of the ridgetop.


Mature bucks learn to bed their to be able to smell everything behind them and see everything below them. If they smell you approaching from behind they simply take one hop and their gone. If they see you sneaking below them the same thing but they go back up over the hill and button hook around behind you then go straight back to their bed. I counteracted this with initially a 300 Weatherby Magnum and then promoted mt cause by purchasing a Sako Trg in 30-378 Weatherby. I calibrated this set up to some smoking hot hand loads they where much above the recommended maximum in the literature without any signs of excessive pressure. I simply walked ridge tops and gained a good vantage point and glassed likely looking spots then ranged the buck and checked my chart for holdover and more or less pole axed them in their bed from the next mountain over. How is this helpful to an archer??

I learrned that you can be fairl confident in predicting where a big buck will bed. I also learned that he is usally back in this bed fairly early ( usually by 0800am if he is a mature buck that is still in the breeding pool. If he is an older non participating buck he usually is in that bed before daylight and it may surprise many that I feel some of these older monarchs don't participate in the rut at all and have what I refer to as semi permanant beds, These beds can be readily identified by no leaves or sticks in them. They usually have tons of hair and you can see rubs of varying ages on nearby trees. good luck killing this buck with archery tackle. I have done it but I will be honest it wasn't easy

I had been scouting a clearcut in about a 2000 acre area. The clearcut was fresh ( less than 6 months old ). I was walking down a pipeline that ran beside the edge of this clearcut. I noticed a long narrow point than ran out like a spine from the main ridge. I noticed that if I was standing up on that ridge I could see everything. That's how a big buck thinks. I immediately turned around and crossed back over the main ridge and and sat for about 1 hour. It was dead 12 noon and I put on the ultra craw back over the ridge and picked up some heavy laurel that would shield me from the prying eyes of a buck. I managed to get withing 40 yards of this little ridgetop spine where I felt certain a mature buck would be laying and I started glassing real slow and easy trying to pick him out.

I spooted the top of his antlers sticking out behind the roots of a tree that fell over. He had not seen me and I knew I wasn't going to beable to get down on him. I snuck back out of there and was back on location at 0400am the next morning. I walked a good mile skirting where I thought he was feeding ( down in the fresh clearcut ). I went down the spine off the main ridge with hip wader on. I climbed a tree about 20 yards from the base of the fallen tree and waited. He came stumbling in at daybreak to find an ACC 360 surprise. I examined that bed which was actually chosen perfectly. He more or less was in a sinkhole behinda fallen over tree. 

Doe bedding areas I usually find while scouting. They bed in thick areas and are easily identified by multiple beds of varying sizes. To capitalize on the doe make sure you are hunting when bucks are interested in doe which obviously would be just before the scrapes leaf over to after the last doe are bred. I like to hunt down wind of known doe bedding areas in the morning through mid day. You can hunt down wind of doe feeding areas but you risk detection of being picked off by the bucks. I 'd try to hunt down wind of travel corridors that the deer are using to enter the food sources. Keep in mind that if your looking to get a buck off his bed that in hotter temperatures he usually goes to water first and then to food sources in the prerut. During the rut he has no bed that he uses regularly because he is on his feet that is unless he is a non rut participating buck. Does any of this make sense?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I'll try to pull the last post together a bit*

So If your the lucky one that has found a semi permanant bed as described it is probably made from an old buck. Your chances of getting him are slim to none unless you somehow figure out how to get a stand up near his bed without disturbing him. I had to do it at 0400 am while he fed on the clearcut below. If you locate some good beds on these points that don't look like a permanant bed but look like they are being used very frequently your proably dealing witha breeding age buck that spends some time away from the bed. look to intercept him where his interest lies. In the early season between him and water/food. During the pre rut ( two weeks before the leaves scrape over ) when they are just making scrapes and things you can pick him up between his bed and the doe and possibly the food. During the rut don't worry about his bed because he is not in it. Hunt the doe groups and travel corridors and funnels between known doe groups. You have to know what the deer are doing to come up with an effective plan.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*This is another huge topic*



gmark said:


> Dean, you've done a commendable job on sharing your wisdom in this thread. Lot's of great information on pursuing our whitetail dreams. Perhaps you can share some tracking techniques. I have seen hunters ruin their chance of tracking the animal by stampeding all over the very ground that held any possible blood trail or sign. Getting an opportunity to draw down on an animal is a heart racing, blood pumping experience that keeps us coming back. I've seen too many "lost" deer before the trail even started due to mistakes in finding a blood trail or other sign. Just a thought. I'm sure many out here can benefit from how to track/find their quarry after the shot.


I don't know where to start?? I will point out that just to get the absolute best tracking information on tracking big woods whitetails look no farther than the Benoits. I think they have that skill set mastered and to be honest all of my big woods tracking is with a bow and that doesn't work so well unless your dealing with a breeding group. Then just more or less try to head them off or setup in a funnel and wait for them to come back. Now the trailing wounded deer, unfortunately I'm the master.

If you were the unlucky one that didn't find your deer immediately after you shot or lost it with your initial tracking job I definitly can give you some valuable tools to use. I have found as many as 4 dead deer in one day that me and my hunting partners have shot. I've found multitudes of deer that were lost for days and had to just have the rack recovered. I've also found them that were reportedly shot with a killing shot only to find out they had a superficial wound. I have found them in lakes and rivers, under brush piles, in ponds and in dried up stream beds after the water went down. I've found them in narrow ditches where a man would have to force himself into to get in there. A wounded deer can and does do many things that are predictable and some that are not!

First and foremost try to take a shot you feel like you have a excellant chance of making a fatal hit. Try to avoid frontal/rear shots and avoid that shoulder bone like the plague. Yes some bows blast through it but most won't even on small Virginia strain whitetails.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Tracking wounded whitetails*

Sorry for all the typos and distractions. The first thing you want to do after the shot is obviously observe where the arrow hit, your anticipated path through the animal given the impact area, how the deer reacted after the shot, the sound of the impact, the direction the deer ran off in, the last place you heard a sound. 
An arrow impacting a deer make specific sounds and deer react do being shot in certain spots on the body in predictable ways. Many hunters shoot ultra fast setups and can't tell where the arrow hit. The sound of a chest shot whitetail sounds like a dull thump almost like the sound of slapping a cardboard box with your hand. A chest shot whitetail generally tears out of there real fast without jumping or humping up in the middle section. A gut shot deer sounds like a dull thud and the deer almost always humps up in the middle and runs off a ways and stands there. It will move off slowly if not pursued. A heart shot deer is a lot like a chest shot but they almost always jump on impact and kick both back feet like a bucking bronco and tear off as fast as they can run until they drop over. A shot to a bone such as a shoulder will sound like a thwack with a slight tearing sound. A leg bone strike sounds a lot like striking an antler but not as clanky. A graze just sounds like and arrow hitting the ground but if you listen closely you'll hear a tearing sound. The sound I describe as chhh, sort of like shooting into leaves with your arrow. Most of your plans to follow up on your animal after the shot should be based upon some fairly basic rules.

If you suspect a immediately fatal strike such as lungs/heart listen closely for crashing in the brush. About 80% of these deer will die in short order and you should be able to hear them fall and preferrably see them fall. If I hear them thrashing about after they fall I give them about 15 minutes and then ever so slowly follow the blood trail making sure to pick up the arrow first to verify I'm truely dealing with a complete chest pass through. I sneak up on the deer and observe it's actions from a distance prior to approaching. If it's still breathing I get into position for another shot and try to put one through the vitals again. If I suspect there is no breathing I slowly stalk up on the downed animal watching everything for sign of life. Watch the ears to see if they are swiveling and finally watch that chest for the rise and fall. If it is a chest shot deer and you doon't hear or see it fall wait an hour before following up.The gut shot animal requires a different approach. 

If your sure you hit the gut make sure you pay attention to the way it went and then recover the arrow. Take note of sign on the arrow. Is the arrow coated with blood, green stomach contents, black bowel material, blood ( if so, bright red, dark reddish blue ?? ). Is there fat on the shaft or fletching? The old saying goes " when in doubt, back out ". A gut shot animal needs to be not pursued for at least 8 hours and then follow up slowly and at the first sign of a live animal back out for another 8 hours. They usually die from infection and although this happens fast it can take an entire day and a deer can cover a lot of ground in a day. Many have heard they go toward water.

I guess I'm going to have to reinforce that. Take one look at where I've found dead deer at the beginning of the post and you'll see much of the time it was near water. The tend to lay down very rapidly after the shot and hang around that area until death unless they are jumped. Expect them to bed several times in the immediate area. If you find the first bed immediately freeze and look closely. You'll probably see others and hopefully the dead deer or bedded deer before it see's you. Track gut shot deer ultra slow and glass. Hopefully if you gut shot your deer you get lucky and hit the liver or the spleen and they usually die much faster than pure gutshot deer related to blood loss. Don't pursue a gut shot deer when it's dark. You can't shoot it again so why bother pushing it out of your hunting area. Arrive after it's good and daylight then track slowly always watching and listening to your surrounding. The sounds of crows sometimes tip off the kill location or a hawk or turkey vulture circling the area. Sometimes you can tell there is blood on leaves if flies are crawling on them. Be persistant and remember to back out when in doubt. I'll review finding carcasses later, My finger is worn out.


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*My contribution*

Dean, I'm sure you'll add plenty more to finding a shot/wounded animal. My contribution....a $2 spray bottle & a $1 bottle of hydrogen peroxide. With "blood lights" and tablets to make blood glow a low tech solution is hydrogen peroxide. Don't disturb the area where you think you shot. Spray a mist of hydrogen peroxide around in a circle from where you are standing. Look for foam. Move forward a few feet and repeat. Find any major sign and use spray bottle when needed to help relocate blood trail. Don't forget to mark trail as you move along to help indicate direction animal traveled.

(Typed the above before heading out of the office. When I clicked "Post" I saw Dean's post.)


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## 22Mag (Aug 31, 2009)

Good Stuff Dean!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Good points*



gmark said:


> Dean, I'm sure you'll add plenty more to finding a shot/wounded animal. My contribution....a $2 spray bottle & a $1 bottle of hydrogen peroxide. With "blood lights" and tablets to make blood glow a low tech solution is hydrogen peroxide. Don't disturb the area where you think you shot. Spray a mist of hydrogen peroxide around in a circle from where you are standing. Look for foam. Move forward a few feet and repeat. Find any major sign and use spray bottle when needed to help relocate blood trail. Don't forget to mark trail as you move along to help indicate direction animal traveled.
> 
> (Typed the above before heading out of the office. When I clicked "Post" I saw Dean's post.)



When I'm 100% sure I've made a killing shot on a whitetail just before it gets dark, I go back to my truck and dig my night vision. I've found that deer tend to spook with flashlights. I sneak into the area I suspect the deer is laying dead and glass with the night vision. Their bellies glow like a light bulb through the night vision. Once you spot your deer you can readily confirm it is dead or lord forbid it's head is still up you can back out. If I shoot a buck and suspect it was a killing shot and the area is thick I use one of those heat sensors you see advertised. My good friend shot a large 8 pointer at dark and then torrential cold rains set in. He came back to camp and asked me to help him. He was afraid the deer would be lost or would be eaten by coyotes if we let it go. The deer went into a multi floral rose thicket with greenbriars. You couldn't see 15 feet. I walked into the middle of the thicket and turned the heat seeker on and it immediately picked up a hot spot. I followed the gauge until it opened up a bit. I dug my night vision out and glassed the area. I spotted the bucks white belly about 20' away. I yelled for my buddy after I had the deer gutted and dragged out to the road. He was very pleased but I guess he caught hell from his wife after he left the buck in the new Suburban over night. It sort of smelled in there for weeksukey: I've used that blood locating stuff before and it works. It just takes a lot of it but is useful in differentiating between leaf color and real blood. I've got that flashlight with the lens you can select between different colors I'm going to give a try when I can.


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## bill_collector (Jul 5, 2009)

Quick story then question.
I shot a doe last year 12 yards away and caught the off shoulder. I din't get a pass thru and immediately when I climbed down it started to rain. I tracked the deer for about 75 yards just finding pin heads of blood. I found my arrow broken off. All of a sudden, no blood. I looked for that deer 2 days in a row just circling around. I know the deer died because 4 came in and one was a yearling and when I hunted the setup a few days later that yearling hung around my stand all evening. I believed it to be the deer I shot's baby. 

What could I have done to have recovered that deer in the situation. I hate to lose a deer, makes me sick at my stomach to think I killed something and didn't get to use it for what it was put here for.


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## mdhager115 (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm sure you have hunted some public land at some point during your adventures. Enlighten us(me?)...


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## ETheiss (Apr 30, 2010)

Dean

Most of my hunting for deer has been done with a muzzle-loader and have been fortunate that no real tracking job has been necessary so far to track any deer I have shot. Usually they are found within 75-yds or less from the point of hitting them. I’m anal about the accuracy of my equipment and my proficiency but am not under the illusion that an unforeseen branch or something else could change a good shot to a bad one.
But I have been involved helping other hunters track their deer and learned some good lessons.

The tracking job for hit deer has been usually done at night in the woods. It is so easy to get turned around when looking for a blood trail unless you keep a reference point. One of the fellows usually keeps a roll of toilet paper in his pack and that will get put/inserted on the branch of a small tree for starting at ground zero. As we fan outwards looking for blood sign we will add some loose toilet paper to another tree branch when blood is found. This then helps to get an idea the direction of travel. Also any markers left behind afterwards will easily biodegrade.

In our area there are a lot of creeks around and wounded deer tend to head in this direction to escape from predators. My personal belief (until proven otherwise) is that the wounded deer wants to break his visible or scent trail to confuse the predator by crossing the creek as we have seen done.
Also I have found when wounded deer are making a mad dash to get away they usually take a path of least resistance for a short while so this is where blood sign is usually found at the start. Afterwards his path can change quickly into thick areas and you need to be vigilante to find this.

As for the blood light using a combination of red & green lighting I have a Primos Mini Blood Hunter Flashlight. From my experience unless your eyes have good contrast quality and readily distinguish colors the blood-light is not user friendly. Now the green setting will easily light up the area say for traveling and the red is more confined for doing anything close-up. As for basic blood trailing at night I still mostly use a bright LED flashlight that seems to work the best for my eyes. The thing to remember is keeping a spare set of fresh batteries on hand, chuckle.

With what I have learned to date added with your experience hopefully will aid me in any future tracking if required.

Thanks


Ed


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

*Use the GPS Track Funtion to track*

Most people have the GPS now. It has a function called tracking that shows your travel route. When tracking a deer, turn the function ON. Along with the toilet paper tip to get a direction of deer travel..the track function will give you compass bearing and you can see the TREND of travel. If you have a GPS with TOPO function, you can extrapolate to valleys/drainages...most well hit deer don't like to climb and will often be found in a drainage/creek (aka go to water like Dean said). They won't clib a steep bank out so they follow the drainage until they expire.


Also, if you loose the deer..you can program a GRID search with the GPS so you walk/track a grid to cover an area. If I loose blood I like to walk a grid 300 Yards by 25 yards up and back looking in blowdowns/bushes...hiding places. The track function lets you STAY ON GRID and be efficient in your search pattern

Use the GPS and you'll have an EFFICIENT Search mechinism.



(also) to distinguish Blood from leaf color..dried blood will flake. just flick the leaf and the blood flake will life off...AND...watch for *ANTS*..Ants gyrate to BLOOD DROPINGS..keep any eye out for these critteers..they'll be on minute specs of blood

Most importatnt..walk OFF the blood trail..not along it..preserve the trail because deer will back track...angle off..and you want to preserve the data.
The tear drop splash of blood when it falls off the deer indicate the deer's direction...look for fallen logs across the trail and inspect..when a deer jumps the log ..gravity shakes blood loose and almost always splatters the log with blood..


Tracking is as much fun as hunting. I am a volunteer tracker who helps people locate wounded animals and I get my BEST HUNTING SPOTS by following wounded deer..they always run twords core bedding


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*all of my deer have come from public ground --*



mdhager115 said:


> I'm sure you have hunted some public land at some point during your adventures. Enlighten us(me?)...


Or ground open to hunters. I've went on one guided hunt and that's because my friend won it at a fund raiser in Ohio.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Your right, it sounds like a killing shot*



bill_collector said:


> Quick story then question.
> I shot a doe last year 12 yards away and caught the off shoulder. I din't get a pass thru and immediately when I climbed down it started to rain. I tracked the deer for about 75 yards just finding pin heads of blood. I found my arrow broken off. All of a sudden, no blood. I looked for that deer 2 days in a row just circling around. I know the deer died because 4 came in and one was a yearling and when I hunted the setup a few days later that yearling hung around my stand all evening. I believed it to be the deer I shot's baby.
> 
> What could I have done to have recovered that deer in the situation. I hate to lose a deer, makes me sick at my stomach to think I killed something and didn't get to use it for what it was put here for.


Unfortunately unexpected and sometimes unpredictable things can and do happen in the deer woods. A perfectly shot deer can be lost. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. Sometimes they go on private ground while others they find their way to the bottom of a lake or pond only to raise later after the gut expands. It sounds like you put a hole in your deer and only had the entrance wound to produce blood. If the entrance was high it takes a while until the blood fills the chest cavity and then it spills out. There is also a chance the wound was filled with fat which will leave you with dripping blood from the nostrils only. It happens to the best hunters. All you can do is try your best to recover the animal before it is ruined. I'm going to go into detail about ways I've found carcasses after I review the remaining post.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Yes sir, sound tracking advice*



ETheiss said:


> Dean
> 
> Most of my hunting for deer has been done with a muzzle-loader and have been fortunate that no real tracking job has been necessary so far to track any deer I have shot. Usually they are found within 75-yds or less from the point of hitting them. I’m anal about the accuracy of my equipment and my proficiency but am not under the illusion that an unforeseen branch or something else could change a good shot to a bad one.
> But I have been involved helping other hunters track their deer and learned some good lessons.
> ...


:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Yep more good stuff*



grizzl said:


> Most people have the GPS now. It has a function called tracking that shows your travel route. When tracking a deer, turn the function ON. Along with the toilet paper tip to get a direction of deer travel..the track function will give you compass bearing and you can see the TREND of travel. If you have a GPS with TOPO function, you can extrapolate to valleys/drainages...most well hit deer don't like to climb and will often be found in a drainage/creek (aka go to water like Dean said). They won't clib a steep bank out so they follow the drainage until they expire.
> 
> 
> Also, if you loose the deer..you can program a GRID search with the GPS so you walk/track a grid to cover an area. If I loose blood I like to walk a grid 300 Yards by 25 yards up and back looking in blowdowns/bushes...hiding places. The track function lets you STAY ON GRID and be efficient in your search pattern
> ...


:thumbs_up


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## St8shooter (Jan 17, 2008)

Dean-
Thanks for the reply to the bedding question, it will help out alot. I look forward to reading more of what you write since this will be the way I live out my hunting season this year since I am over seas. Keep up the good work and thanks again.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*All right, so your bumming because you lost your deer*

I hate to admit it but I've been in on my share of rack recoveries. Lets say you shot a deer in the gut and lost it. You really interested in trying to confirm you indeed did kill it or are looking to recover the rack. I should be able to help you maximize your chances.

If you have access to a dog that trails deer that is probably your best initial approach if you've lost the sign. However, if you've lost the deer for days and your certain it is in all likelihood dead follow these steps for recovery. I always arrive in the suspected area of the dead deer before daylight and get out of my vehicle. I walk to a vantage point such as a hill top or a valley where you can see a ways and more importantly hear a ways. I take a pair of binoculars and wait for daylight. I listen real close for the sounds of initially a coyote howling or a fox barking. Make mental notes of the general direction you heard them. As soon as it gets daylight the first animals to hit carcasses is usually crow which make a big commotion when they arrive on the scene. They usually fly up in a tree and wait for several friends to show up. Watch them and if a crow or two flies down to the ground and one stays up in the tree as a sentry make a mental note exactly where they are. Use odd trees or any landmark that you can remember. Don't charge right up there. If they are on the deer they will be there for hours. You'll be able to observe them fly in and out. If you think after an hour is up that they are on to something go check it out. I usually hang tight and make mental notes of what all the crows are doing. They like to talk to each other as if saying " hey, come over here I've got a rotten deer we can chew on ". Not long after the crows start making there appearance you may see a chicken hawk flying around the area. They are also very good at locating dead deer. They will sometimes circle for an hour before they spot if. 

I try to move over near where they are circling and then hide so I don't spook them. If they light in a tree I watch them and see if they fly down. Later in the day around 0900 the turkey vultures start circling and you'll have to watch them to see if they land in some trees. Go investigate if they go to the ground. Another tactic I've used successfully is to be at the area at dusk. Many times a pack of coyotes will arrive at the kill and start howling like crazy. I've also just used my big nose. I more or less walk a pattern through the are using my nose to smell the carcass. Keep in mind that thermals usually rise in the morning and settle at night. If you have no clue where to begin simply take your binoculars out about 1100 am and drive around the area looking for vultures. You can start threre!


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

* I get my BEST HUNTING SPOTS by following wounded deer..they always run twords core bedding*.


You hit the nail on the head.


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

I think I am going to like this thread. Keep it going.


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## mdhager115 (Nov 11, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> Or ground open to hunters. I've went on one guided hunt and that's because my friend won it at a fund raiser in Ohio.


Wow. Even more impressive! That's awesome.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Unfortunate incident*

I was hunting with a rifle back in the 1980's when I shot a large 9 pointer with a big drop tine. The deer ran over on some posted property about 50 yards from where I shot it. I more or less shot it from one mountain to the next with a 375 H&H Magnum. It did the wham sideways at the shot and tore off through the brush. I immediately headed off the hill to tell my uncle and see if we could call the landowner to let me get the buck. When I was coming off the mountain I saw my uncle coming up the valley just below where the deer had ran. He said he just saw the buck run across the road and it wasn't even hit. I went back down to where the deer came off the bank and checked for blood and there was none. I looked the way it came and it was directly in line with the path the buck I just shot at. That ground was posted so I just assumed that I'd missed the deer.

Early the next spring my sister in law was looking for a lost dog on that property and found the buck about 50 yards on the other side of the fence. She took the rack and told me about it. She said she figured it was the one I was shooting at. I went back down and checked the skeleton which was scattered around a bit and found the shoulder blade with my 300 grain .375 slug in it. The moral of the story is to regardless of what you think did or didn't happen you owe it to the deer to take the time to fully look as hard and as thorough as you can before giving up. Oh, the buck was a 145-150 class 9 pointer with a big drop tine. It still hangs on my brothers porch and I don't deserve the rack. Do your best to find the animals you shoot at or at least confirm for sure you missed.


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## Cthuntfish (Sep 9, 2005)

Twitch said:


> * I get my BEST HUNTING SPOTS by following wounded deer..they always run twords core bedding*.
> 
> 
> You hit the nail on the head.


Are you talking about deer that aren't hit very good? My own experience is that when they're hit good, they don't make it very far and they just seem to go randomly away or keep going the direction they were headed. I'm trying to think of spots where I've been lucky enough to get multiple deer over the years and I'm just not seeing it this way....

Now I'm going to need to think that through a while.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I believe he is referring to poorly hit deer.*



Cthuntfish said:


> Are you talking about deer that aren't hit very good? My own experience is that when they're hit good, they don't make it very far and they just seem to go randomly away or keep going the direction they were headed. I'm trying to think of spots where I've been lucky enough to get multiple deer over the years and I'm just not seeing it this way....
> 
> Now I'm going to need to think that through a while.



Yes, they would like to make it back to their comfort zone but that depends on how sick they are.


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

Cthuntfish said:


> Are you talking about deer that aren't hit very good? My own experience is that when they're hit good, they don't make it very far and they just seem to go randomly away or keep going the direction they were headed. I'm trying to think of spots where I've been lucky enough to get multiple deer over the years and I'm just not seeing it this way....
> 
> Now I'm going to need to think that through a while.


No, not so much when you double lung them. More like mortally wounded but still able to cover some ground, liver hit, or single lung type shots.


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## Fast40 (Jun 30, 2004)

*nice*

great thread


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## Hunterbe1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks Dean -- I appreciate you taking the time to write about your experiences.


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> Yes, they would like to make it back to their comfort zone but that depends on how sick they are.


Ya. 400-500 yard tracking..liver, leg ,gut shot. VERY hard to track and can take all day but the payoff is GREAT! Thats why I "volunteer" :wink: to help track animals other people have shot. That and I hate to have a deer rot out there for lack of tracking skills.

I love to take young hunters back out there..teach them AND recover their deer.

So even a bad shot can generate a Good outcome.


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## TrykonSniper79 (Dec 19, 2009)

Subscribed!
Awesome thread! 
I guess I dont need to buy a bowhunting book now.

Thanks for all of the detailed insight and information, I'll use alot of this info. when go hunting for the first time, this coming Dec.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Once again, a very good reference tool Dean:thumbs_up


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## gmark (Jun 15, 2010)

*Strong STICKY suggestion*

Maybe it's just me, but who thinks Dean's thread should be a STICKY?

He gets my vote. :thumbs_up


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## pchunterpa (Sep 28, 2007)

i would second that


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## d3coy_duck (Apr 24, 2010)

Just adding a little something here.

I've often found my best deer hunting to be very close to sanctuary area's. That might be on a piece of high ground surrounded by water, close to a property that does now allow hunting, near public area's like parks, golf courses, country clubs, etc., even inside the city in undeveloped wood lots. Keep in mind a sanctuary are does not have to be big. It's simply a area where the deer are not molested. If you will get up close to these area's & be ready when the deer come out, you can have some great success.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Give me some ideas guys?*

I'm running out of gas?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Any guess??*



Ohio Mossy Oak said:


> Just curious.What did "way to wide"score??



What do you guys think he scored??


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## mdhager115 (Nov 11, 2009)

So about the wind. Last season I tried hunting with the wind. (Only my 2nd season hunting) I looked at the wind forecast and hunted accordingly. However I noticed in the woods that the wind sometimes blows in many different directions. Does this matter? Should I change my stand if the wind changes? Or should I just keep hunting according to what the forecast says?


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## ETheiss (Apr 30, 2010)

Dean

The hunting of deer when corn crops are still up has to be one of the most frustrating moments in a short Controlled Hunt (ML) time frame. The deer can run circles around you and can hide all day in there. My partner and I have tried short drives, have tried using the wind for one hunter encircling a specific area to spread his scent into the corn while another is downwind in an open area on watch. The only thing we still want to try is rattling and mocking a buck fight to see if there are any curiosity seekers.

But what is in question here is how well a memory a deer has. To get to a viable location to set up for such an attempt we have to cross open fields to get to a bush lot located in the center of farming fields. There is no way you can actually sneak in for a set up without being spotted during the day. Once we do manage to get into our planned hidden locations will deer remember we are there say after an hour?


Ed


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

What time do you find best to get to the woods for different hunting methods. Like 1 hr before sunrise for stand hunting, etc.?

More details on exactly how you move to be able to sneak up so close to deer. That's one my Uncle could always do but i've never got the hang of. I think he could walk up and lasso one before it knows he's there. Except for one wounded buck I snuck up on, they have seen me first every single time unless they are several hundred yards away. I can spend an hour moving across 100 yards and they still spot me first.


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

mdhager115 said:


> So about the wind. Last season I tried hunting with the wind. (Only my 2nd season hunting) I looked at the wind forecast and hunted accordingly. However I noticed in the woods that the wind sometimes blows in many different directions. Does this matter? Should I change my stand if the wind changes? Or should I just keep hunting according to what the forecast says?


I choose trees according to the "Prevailing Wind"..what is the most common direction for that area...I'll have 3-4 trees that "cover" an area so I can setup in any wind where it won't blow to where I expect the animal to approach. They may be 100 yards apart but I'll be able to see whats happening in any of the trees. 

If I am hunting a new spot I'll setup just to observe (or maybe get a shot) but what I want is information..If I am hunting a proven spot...I never hunt it until the wind is right..even with all the scent stuff and going clean..I never contaminate a prime spot by hunting the wrong wind.

The wind may change during the day but what is important is what the direction was when you climbed the tree..all the dust kicked off the tree (all the sweat and work to get up the tree bonds with the dust) spreads downwind and lays the scent trail...once up..if you don't disturb the tree bark..you should be OK to 20-30 yards..the deer can tell the morning scent is aged and may not spook.

Its a roll of the dice on new setups..but on a proven stand sight..no need to push your luck...have an alternate tree/stand available for any wind direction.

Thats why I like a climbing stand..you are adaptable. 

*But be as clean and scent free as you can. I am fanatical about changing out of my walkin cloths to hunting cloths stored in zip lock bags in my pack..alcohol wipes...wear a bandana while climbing to contain hair dandruff/sweat dust
*


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Do your best*



mdhager115 said:


> So about the wind. Last season I tried hunting with the wind. (Only my 2nd season hunting) I looked at the wind forecast and hunted accordingly. However I noticed in the woods that the wind sometimes blows in many different directions. Does this matter? Should I change my stand if the wind changes? Or should I just keep hunting according to what the forecast says?


In hill country the wind swirls. You can only do your best to keep downwind. Sometimes if you pay attention you'll learn that if the wind is out of a certain direction you can expect it to be blowing this way or that in a certain valley. Don't worry though, just when you think you have it figured out it will turn and blow the other direction:angry:


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Oh yes*



ETheiss said:


> Dean
> 
> The hunting of deer when corn crops are still up has to be one of the most frustrating moments in a short Controlled Hunt (ML) time frame. The deer can run circles around you and can hide all day in there. My partner and I have tried short drives, have tried using the wind for one hunter encircling a specific area to spread his scent into the corn while another is downwind in an open area on watch. The only thing we still want to try is rattling and mocking a buck fight to see if there are any curiosity seekers.
> 
> ...


Deer can't count, I've did the old walk with a buddy to your planned hunting spot and then drop into a hiding spot while your buddy keeps walking.


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

Dean, how about moon phase?

I know I kill most of my deer on the dark side of the moon. Have you noticed a pattern between daytime deer activity and moon phase ?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Best times*



TailChaser said:


> What time do you find best to get to the woods for different hunting methods. Like 1 hr before sunrise for stand hunting, etc.?
> 
> More details on exactly how you move to be able to sneak up so close to deer. That's one my Uncle could always do but i've never got the hang of. I think he could walk up and lasso one before it knows he's there. Except for one wounded buck I snuck up on, they have seen me first every single time unless they are several hundred yards away. I can spend an hour moving across 100 yards and they still spot me first.


The best times when it is hot is 1 hour before dark. The best time otherwise would be the first 3 hours of daylight and the last hour of daylight. Stalking up on deer is simple; Have good camaflage, be quiet, move ultra slow, keep obstructions between you and your quary and for heavens sake play the wind ( don't let the wind carry your scent to the deer ). You can fool a deers ears but your not going to fool his nose!. don't be afraid to walk way out of the way to close the distance downwind up a trench or behind a weedy fencerow down wind!:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*For me not really?*



Twitch said:


> Dean, how about moon phase?
> 
> I know I kill most of my deer on the dark side of the moon. Have you noticed a pattern between daytime deer activity and moon phase ?


I've killed them during all moon phases and can't pick out a certain phase better that the other. If it was I'd have to say 1/2 moon because that usually the peak of the rut in my area ( central USA ). Keep in mind that heat may ****** the rut and cooler temperatures may speed it up. So in reality you rarely have a rut that falls just way it is predicted.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Big woods bucks/clear cuts*

I’ve done my fair share of big woods hunting. I’ve hunted the vast forest of Southern WVA and the huge tracts of land around Gunnison Colorado. I learned to hunt and navigate these areas through trial and lots of errors. To successfully hunt and succeed in wilderness type settings one has to understand how deer utilize the land under various conditions and time frames. Essentially through the summer and early fall they are focusing on putting body weight on in anticipation of winter. A hunter would be wise to learn the preferred food sources in his area and then plan to strategically place a stand near them or on travel corridors leading to the food sources. 



Most vast tracts of land may have several different types of terrain and wildlife diversity that you should consider. Deer tend to focus on water drainages, clear cuts, thickets, food sources. In the summer they focus in on high quality grasses and plants. This is the time of the year that you see many bachelor groups of bucks feeding in hidden away pastures and river/creek drainages. When fall comes the deer shift their food preference from grasses to nuts and fruits. So you need to figure out what foods they are feeding on and plan an effective strategy to intercept them. I like the white oak as I’ve said many times before. One great producing white oak in a forest full of red oaks will draw every deer in from the neighborhood. Many have questioned about hunting clear cuts.



Clear cuts provide a deer with much of the needed brows that they need to survive and if there is water source there they really don’t need anything but they do prefer certain foods over brows. I think that provided that there are no standing productive oaks or fruit trees the deer will leave the sanctuary of the clear cut to seek out the delicacies of the woodlots beyond. That would be my strategy if I was looking to pick off a deer that resides in the clear cut. So in the early fall I’d focus on nut/fruit trees outside the boundaries of the sanctuary/clear cut. Once all of the nuts have been cleaned up the deer will refocus on the clear cut to meets their needs. To hunt during the rut near clear cuts I would look for heavily used trails/travel corridors within the clear cut that have a place to hide down wind or a suitable tree to climb, just make sure you have good background cover to break up your outline. Deer can and will use these logging roads in the clear cut and if you pay attention to the tracks on them you can see how they are using them and set up a stand strategically high and down wind. To summarize, if your planning on hunting big woods whitetails you need to hunt it just like any other tract of land. You need to know the stage of the rut and where the; food, water, bedding areas, travel corridors, funnels, paths of least resistance and implement an effective hunting strategy to maximize your chances.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The Night Hollow buck*

Some of you guys have already read this little short story I wrote so I apologize to you beforehand. I wrote this story last year when I was considering writing a book and never got around to finishing it. I found AT instead and that gave me the release I was looking for.

We all know of mystical and sometimes spooky places. One such spot around my home is called Night Hollow. Night Hollow is nothing more than a very steep valley that runs from Montana Mines community to the Monongahela river. This valley was the source of many childhood scary stories. Supposedly one of the last known mountain lions to have been killed in this area resided in this valley. There is also an old overgrown grave yard located at the summit of the north side of ravine over looking the small town of Rivesville, W.Va. Almost all of the inhabitants of the grave yard were killed by Indians or small pox as the grave markers state. The area is rich in tradition and history. 

An old shell road exist at the junction of the hollow and the Mon River. The road which now is a unfinished section of the rail to trails between Morgantown and Fairmont. Supposedly the Indians made the trail from mussel shells harvested from the Mon River and was historically referred to as Mussel Shoals Trail. This trail was later converted to the railroad. Today you can still pick up ancient mussel shells near where the trail was located. Just down stream less than a mile is Pricketts Fort State Park where many Indian /settler battles occurred. Jacob Prickett was probably the most famous Indian fighter in this area, along with John Morgan for which Morgantown was named after. The pair fought many battles with hostile Indians in this area. It’s still very common to find indian arrow heads in and around Night Hollow. Night Hollow is still much the same as it was 200 years ago. There are ancient beech trees there that are 3 feet thick with carving a 100+ years old on them. The area has many old caves. According to a local well known historian “Charles Koon” in one such cave an ancient giant skeleton was found and supposedly now resides in the Smithsonian. The skeleton was believed to be from an ancient race of red haired Indians. The estimated size of the skeleton was over 8 feet tall. A similar skeleton was unearthed by construction crews near the Bell view bridge in Fairmont. This skeleton also resides in the Smithsonian. 

My brothers and some old timers would speak of Indian Ghost that frequented this hollow. I really never believed the stories but to a young boy I thought it was best to avoid the hollow just in case. I , having a good bit of Indian in myself, found such stories as somewhat mystical. My Grandparents on my father's side were Shawnee Indian and they shared these stories as well as many more. My father and brother could have been passed off as coming straight off the reservation. Both have jet black hair and are extremely dark complected. It’s strange that neither of them ever hunted. My oldest brother and I are the only ones that followed our ancestral instincts. My mother always said that we were both born in the wrong century. For some strange reason we are both strongly drawn to the outdoors/buckskin and antlers. I have always been somewhat of a romantic when it comes to hunting. I’d always wanted to hunt and harvest a buck near Night Hollow like I’m sure my ancestors had done many times in the past. 

A couple of years back I scouted that area extensively and came across some very promising sign. I found dozens of rubs and scrapes. Many of the rubs were on 4-6 inch trees. I knew some good bucks were in the area so I decided to set up a natural ground blind along the edge of Night Hollow. I found that there was a well used trail that skirted the top of the hollow. I constructed a small blind from limbs that had fallen from one of the beech trees. The wind was blowing my scent out into the valley perfectly. I was in the blind by 3pm and noticed movement down the trail just as dusk was setting in. The shadows of nightfall were quickly approaching as the the old buck made his grand arrival. He was an exceptional northern W.Va. 9 pointer. For those that are interested in such things, he would later score 134 P&Y. His body was long and thick. I took note that his fur was almost orange in color, Very much like that of “ The Poor Farm Buck “. He easily weighed 190 pounds on the hoof and his neck was thick. He didn’t have much for brows but his other tine lengths were good to exceptional. I hadn’t put any meat in the freezer for myself yet and this buck certainly would meet my needs. The arrow entered nicely through both lungs and the buck charged off in the direction of the ancient graveyard. 

I found him lying on his side on the crest of the ridge overlooking Night Hollow and Mussel Shoals Trail. I quickly gutted him and couldn’t help but think how many times my ancestors had set in this very exact same spot. The scene was eerily quiet and peaceful.


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## Twitch (Oct 14, 2007)

You really need to compile some short stories for publication. Hell, I would buy a copy as would many others.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The Virginia 9*

My wife and I were married during the summer of 1988. She had just graduated WVU with a degree in Industrial Engineering and accepted a job in Franklin Virginia with a company by the name of Union Camp Corporation. We relocated down there in early August. I was agreeable but very reluctant to go since I so loved my home state of W.Va. Franklin was like a different world to me environmentally as well as socially. The temperature would stay in the 90-100’s for days on end with almost 100% humidity on a daily basis. I’m firmly convinced the appropriate state bird should have been the mosquito or the black fly. Unbeknownst to me my house was located on the boundary of The Great Dismal Swamp. That explained the mosquitos and flys. The only agreement I had with my wife was that I wanted to be somewhere I could hunt and fish. We rented a farm that had three separate tracts of land totaling about 3000 acres. The ground was leased to some farmers to raise crops. However, as part of the contract to rent the house the owners granted me hunting privilege to all the parcels. 

My first impression was that the hunting was going to be poor. The farm consisted of roughly 2500 acres of crops and 500 acres of timber. The crops consisted of corn, wheat, soybeans and peanuts. All the deer I saw looked to weigh about 100-110 pounds soaking wet. I saw a few buck but they all appeared to be yearlings. I purchased some topo maps and researched the area immediately around the house. I spoke to a guy at the local bait and tackle shop and he informed me that my farm was situated adjacent to The Great Dismal Swamp. He said that area was 3600 sq. miles of no hunting for the last 60 years. I thought that I possibly might have got lucky and moved right in next to a sanctuary. I was correct.

The no hunting zone started a mile or so to the East of my home but that mile was nothing but swampland that essentially was unhuntable unless you were an alligator.There was a road that traversed through this area that had a couple spots that had some small tracts of farmland on it. One evening while I was cruising this back road I spotted a group of six bachelor bucks all of which would easily make P&Y. One or two would probably score 150 P&Y. I was a bit less homesick after those sightings. Beside that, I found the bass fishing to be incredible. That first year I caught literally dozens on bass over 5 pounds and a couple over 10 pounds and one 12 and 1/2 pounds. Things were looking up. I spent my time either hunting or fishing or going to school ( probably in that order of importance ). My wife's job required her to be out of town for sometimes months at a time.So I had plenty of time to learn the ways of the South. 

I spent the summer evenings fishing the swamp for chain pickeral, bowfin and yellow perch. I would drive down a long sendaro off the main road toward the swamp. I usually would see deer off in the distance as I entered the sendaro. The sendaro was about 6/10th of a mile long so I was unable to identify some of the deer. Archery season was going to come in a couple of days so I decided to take my binoculars. I had just started down the sendaro when I spotted a buck off in the distance. I glassed him real quick and thought I was halucinating. The deer was a buck but the antlers appeared to be as big as an elk. The rack was as high as the deer was tall. He disappeared before I could positively identify any characteristics. I cruised down the sendaro and approached the area where I had seen the buck. He was no where to be seen but I noticed a lot of tracks surrounding a hole beside the road. Upon closer inspection this hole appeared to be some type of mineral lick. The tracks around the hole were all small so I assumed the buck I saw was not at the mineral lick. I continued on down the road and fished the swamp. 

I spotted a family of seven river otters and enjoyed the show that they put on. I also spotted a large water mocassin cruising down the far shore line. I thought I'd be ornry and throw a stick at it. That was a mistake. Water mocassin are extremely agressive. This one swam straight across the swamp and right up to the shore in front of me. Me being young and plenty stupid thought I'd teach this snake a thing or two. I backed off and found a 8 foot long stout dried up stick about 2.5 inches in diameter. I theorized that I'd blast the snake in the water and kill it. I would then check out his fangs since I'd never seen one up close. I raised the club high over my head and struck the snake with suck force that it drove him under the water. I immediately recognized the error of my ways. Water mocassins don't die easily and this particular one must have been hell bent for revenge. No longer had I pulled the stick out of the water the snake appeared as if he was shot out of a cannon coming straight at me. No instructions were necessary, a immediate retreat was in oder. My truck was parked about 40 yards from where I struck the snake. There was a small water covered area between me and the truck. I can assure you that jesus is not the only person that has walked on the water. I crossed the 40 yards in record time and glanced back just as I was getting to the truck. To my horror the snake was right on my tail and closing. I assumed I didn't have time to climb into the truck before I was bitten so I just dove over the side of the truck and into the bed. I looked down and Mr Mocassin was looking up at me appearing to be saying " go ahead, mess with me again ". I had enough fishing for the day.So after Mr Mocassin approved my dismissal, I got in the truck and headed home. 

As I approached the mineral lick I spotted a nice 110" eight pointer standing off the road. I looked behind him and noticed several other bucks were following him. They all spooked back into the swamp but I wondered what the attraction was to that area. I got out and scouted around the mineral lick and determined that it was used heavily but there was some oak trees dropping acorns into the swamp. I noticed several well used trails leading to the oaks. I thought that this would be an excellent place for a stand to intercept these buck as they approached to feed on the acorns. I hung a stand up in a loblolly pine about 30 yards down wind of the trails. Several days passed until season came in and I was able to hunt the site.

The first day I hunted the stand it was probably 90 degrees with no wind at all. This concerned me since I couldn't tell where my scent was blowing. About two hours and 500 mosquito bites later I spotted a group of bucks heading my way. I thought I could count 16 different bucks and two of them about made me fall out of the tree. One was a huge typical and the other was a huge non typical. The non typical was taking up the rear in the line. I really wanted to try and hold out for him but I would have to let all the other bucks walk past my stand before he would arrive. The bucks quickly approached and were filtering by my stand nicely when I felt a breeze hit the back of my neck and blow directly toward the bucks. They simply stopped and several bolted into the swamp while other ran the way they had come. The giant non typical was still about 70 yards away but he was on full alert. I glanced around my tree stand and noticed that the second largest deer was standing 40 yards away alert but unaware of the wherabouts of the danger. I theorized that if I was going to shoot it had better be now since several of the bucks had their tails at half mast. I was shooting a PSE that would shoot 2219 shafts an amazing 254 FPS. I was confident I could make a clean kill. The deer jumped and kicked at the shot and ran about 30 yards and disappeared behind some pines. The remaining deer bolted.

I climbed down and approached the area I last saw the deer. I was following a very significant blood trail when I looked up and noticed this rack sticking up out of the brush. The deer was a main framed 9 pointer shot perfectly through the heart. His rack appeared to be huge. When I finally reached the deer I realized that this was probably one of the smallest bodied deer I have ever taken. However, the rack was so big that the deer head was barely touching the ground. I later weighed the buck and he only tipped the scale at 106 pounds with the guts in him. Now get this, the rack was 22 inches wide with 5-6" mass, 23 inch main beams and 13 inch tines. He grossed 162 P&Y and would net 152 as an 8 pointer. Try to imagine a 100 pound buck with a 160 inch rack. I'm sure he is the buck I first saw in the story that looked like an elk. His front hooves were less than 1 1/2' long. So there goes the theory of all big bucks make big tracks. As a matter of fact, most of my bigger bucks had small hooves less than 2" long.

You might ask about what happened to the non typical?? This was the deer that up dead 40 miles away and if memory serves me correctly scored 238" and was the Virginia state record Non typical for a while. I still often wonder what a group of bachelor bucks were still doing together on Nov 1st? The only thing I can think is that Nov 1st in that Virginia coastal plains region the deer must still be in the prerut stage. I miss those days in Virginia but I'm glad to be back in my home state. Five years in a swamp is enough for me. If your ever in the market for pigs, peanuts or paper or an occasional monster buck or bass don't be afraid to travel to Southern Virginia. Things do grow big there in the swamp.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Paper scouting, aerial and topo maps*

This is a hard topic to cover in print but since this is the time of the year that many of us are dreaming and planning our hunts I thought I'd try to help you out. It would be much easier to discuss in person. A hunter interested in predicting a deer's travels and looking for potential ambush sites would be wise to learn how to read topo and aerial maps. There are many sources of this information on the web, at Walmart, programmed into your GPS that you can use to make your evaluation and ultimately come up with a strategic game plan to get your deer. Deer are fairly predictable creatures and are much like us.

Deer are generally interested in eating, drinking, sleeping in safety and conserving energy. They are somewhat secretive lot that realize that they are being hunted. They are aware that roads, fields,and houses are danger areas and they try to avoid them unless they have been conditioned to perceive them as no threat such as is the case where deer reside in communities, golf courses, city limits where there is no hunting or otherwise would be considered sanctuary's. Deer learn to avoid these danger areas until they can hide under the cover of darkness. There are also topographical features that deer tend to use as barriers unless pushed real hard.

The topographical barriers I'm referring to are; cliffs, real steep embankments, large deep water ways and anything else that would require a deer to expend excessive energy or expose them to an unsafe environment. If you learn to review and study all the possible information available to you keeping in mind a deer's basic survival rules you can easily rule out much non productive areas and be able to reasonably predict locations that deer will be. Keep in mind that reading maps and looking at aerials are no substitute for actual hands on scouting. Many of the topographical maps out there today are not up to date and things are significantly different when you get there. I just use these maps as a starting point for my scouting. If you know the prevailing wind direction you can predict fairly strategic stand locations as well as routes you should take to avoid detection while getting to your stand. Reviewing your maps you should be able to safely and reasonably eliminate much of the territory.

You can figure that mowed fields, housing developments, major roadways deer will avoid in the daylight if given the choice. Yes they do feed in field and cross roads and go in around house but it can be tough for a person to effectively/legally hunt those areas. We can cover that topic ( hunting suburban whitetails ) later if anyone is interested? I start my process by getting aerial photos and laying them beside the topographical map. I'm looking for the barriers we mentioned. I observe for potential bedding sites such as thicker areas of brush/clear cuts/river drainages/crp fields/points down wind 1/3 of the way down from the main ridge line in hill country. I also study and evaluate potential food/water sources. A pond in an area that has no other water source should catch your eye fairly quick and you can bet every deer will use it. Actual food sources may have to be evaluated with leg work since it's difficult to tell if there is an apple tree, oak trees....., food sources are procucing or not. The next thing are topographical features that will channel or force deer into funnel where we hunters with our archery gear can get them within range.


A funnel is anything that forces deer into a narrow travel corridor and one where a hunter can set up on the down wind side and pick off deer as they move through. From an aerial map these show up as thin bands of brush connecting two larger bands of brush or a wooded fenceline/stream connecting larger blocks of timber or bedding areas. You can also use a topographical map to reasonably predict the path of least resistance in hill country. A topomap doesn't do you much good in flat land where deer don't have to worry about hills. In flat land just look for the smallest of ravines, river drainages,low spots through the middle of fields that deer will try to hide or conceal themselves. If your paper scouting flat land I'd lean more toward using aerial photo's. If I was hunting hill country, I'd use both. The hill country deer will travel in predictable ways.

They travel up and down ravines and valley bottoms. They will routinely walk down long points and drop off the end of the point and bed. They will cross low saddles/gaps on longer ridges to conserve energy. On a topo map you need to learn what is the top of the hill and what is the bottom of the hill.The top and bottom of the hill generally have the elevation marked and you'll see a lines progressively moving away from the high and low elevations. You need to look at you map legend and see how many feet of elevation change each of these lines equals. The closer the lines are together the steeper the terrain and vice versa. Lets say you have a long ridgetop where the elevation is marked 2200' in several spots and all at once you see it drop off to 2000 and then back up to 2200'. You notice that in the are you see this happen in several places. Rest assured that every monster buck that is participating in the rut in this type of mountainous terrain will use this low gap during the seeking stage of the rut. He will more or less travel back and forth across this low gap and travel across the ridge scent checking for doe. He uses his nose to locate the estrus doe. If he is going to cross to the next mountain he will try to hold his elevation and if that is not possible he will go down a ravine or off a long point and the gradually obtain the elevation he needs to conserve energy in his travels to locate receptive doe. The map on the pool table is the map of almost heaven outfitters. If any of you guys are interested in a $600 yearly membership on 5000+ acres. He has roughly 30 - 35 hunters yearly and some rules setup where you aren't hunting on top of another person.

My fingers are tired--I'll finish this later


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## Cmarti (Oct 15, 2004)

Twitch said:


> You really need to compile some short stories for publication. Hell, I would buy a copy as would many others.


:icon_study::77::no:


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Continued*

Keep in mind that your using these maps as tool to increase your chances not to identify actual stand sites. These maps and aerial photos just get you close and you have to actually walk the ground and see how the trails run and where the deer are and link all this information to; the stage of the rut, bedding areas, feeding/watering areas, how the deer are going to react to hunting pressure, where the hunting pressure is coming from, wind direction, weather....... There are so many variables to consider it's almost unimaginable. Over time and with study you'll get to where you can make some good predictions. Many of the post on this website asking for stand placement are just plain difficult to answer with any accuracy unless you know all the variables. Sometimes variables such as; people routinely riding horses/walking, dogs running at large, **** hunters, ATV's, bait stations, mineral licks, little old ladies feeding deer in her back yard......... are easy to overlook but they definitely impact the strategy's you should consider. You have to be more or less a detective and scientist all bundled up into one to be consistantly successful. I can tell story after story where I finally pieced the puzzle together to take a certain buck. When this happens it's like a light bulb comes on and you really get excited.

There was one old buck I was hunting for the better part of the season. I saw the deer here and there. A couple of my hunting buddies saw it a few times. A few walkers spotted it and told me about the sighting. I kept plugging away trying to deciphers this deers travels without any success. One hot mid day I went back to camp and pulled out my in detailed topo maps I got from the US geological survey and really studied it. I placed marked on the map actual sightings and timing. It became apparent the the deer had a routine that I just hadn't put together. He was traveling from one mountain to the next about 5pm and was using a low gap in a paved road to cross. He was always spotted in the morning on one side of the road and in the evening on the other. I took note of where a guy said he saw him at 5pm. Two separate individuals reported seeing this buck cross this low gap in the road. We had a large field about a half mile from this low gap that many doe frequented and that's where he was spotted by my hunting buddies ( around the woods down wind of the field ). I also learned of a feeder location on the opposite side of the road that a walker had seen a large buck two evening previous. I put two and two together and figured out the deer was feeding on the feeder and then circling the mountain and crossing this road about 5pm and then moving off to scent check doe around the field since it was the end of the pre rut phase. 

My friend asked me what my plans where for the evening and I said I've finally figured the buck out and when he came back I would have him. Well it was as simple as that, I went to the road crossing, back tracked the trail toward the feeder and dropped in behind some laurel down wind of this trail. Just like clockwork, here he came at 4:55pm. One arrow through the lungs and it was all over. I like it when a plan comes together and find it very satisfying. My friend came back and I told him I got him all the while keeping a straight face. He said your full of it. I just smiled and said " no really, he's dead and lets go get him ". He said you lucky SOB, I can't wait to see it. This is one of my good hunting buddies and he was just as happy as I was and that made it all the better. He was so honored to have participated in the hunt he felt the need to carry the buck out on his shoulders. He was as proud as I was, and if he got that deer I would be just as happy for him. Good friends hunting together, enjoying the outdoors and the hunt is what it's all about!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Any topic request?*

I've got some request on preseason preparation and equipment selection. I'll leave the equipment selection to you guys since people have their own idea on what they like.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*The Cabin Creek buck*

Over the years I have introduced many of my coworkers and friends to the sport of hunting whitetail deer. Most of these individuals loved the sport of bow hunting but had never enjoyed the excitement of taking a trophy buck. I like to share my experiences with them in hopes that it can help them succeed in there quest. Some of my most memorable hunts have occurred while helping others get there deer. Other times, some decided that trophy hunting was not for them. I met most of my lifelong friends through relationships that were formed based upon the common interest of hunting. However, I soon found out why most trophy hunters are loners. This brings to mind one of the bucks I harvested in Wyoming County several years back.

I had been talking with several guys at work about the importance of hunting where the big deer are known to live. I shared with them a copy of the W.Va. DNR’s Isaac Walton league big buck contest winners. I pointed out that it was very rare to have an entry that was north of Beckley. I think it was eye opening to these guys. They assumed that trophy deer were in every county. They all decided to come down and give it a try. I always save all of my vacation for the month of November so I had plenty of time to scout potential stand sites for my friends prior to their arrival. 

I had scouted and found several promising looking stand sites prior to the first guy “ Brocks’ “ arrival. He came down the first week of November. The deer were in the pre rut stage so they were actively working scrapes and making lots of rubs. However, we spent 4-5 days setting over these scrapes only to realize that they were only being visited at night. We tried walking the ridges and setting up rattling sequences without success. The deer were not moving at all during the daylight. This was probably related to the unseasonably hot temperatures we were having. The last day of his hunt a light rain settled in and he spotted a couple of shooters off in the distance but no shot was offered. I had seen several nice bucks but was holding out for a bigger one. The next week a couple of guys from Pa called to say they were coming down. I told them that I’d located two great stand sites for their first days hunt. The rut had progressed to the cruising/chasing stage. I placed two hanging stands up on the downwind side of a couple of known doe bedding areas. The areas were fresh with significant new buck sign. I had spotted a 170 class ten pointer about a mile from where I was placing my friends. I planned on walking them to their stands about 0500am and hopefully get in mine well before dawn.

The guys arrived and there was much anticipation for the upcoming mornings hunt. The weather forecast called for rain and possibly some snow. I explained to the guys the importance of being patient while on stand and to not expect to see many deer. The deer population in that area was estimated at less than 1 deer per Sq. mile at that time. I walked each guy to his stand the next morning and made sure they were safely strapped in. I then went to my site. I had been in my stand probably less than 15 minutes when it started a heavy downpour of soaking cold rain and wind. This was followed shortly thereafter by brief snow squalls and high wind. This went on all morning. To stay warm I would imagine I was in Florida laying on the beach while I flexed my muscles in an attempt to keep warm. Around 12 noon I thought I could hear a car horn blowing off in the distance. This concerned me because I thought that someone might be hurt. I surmised that they were both grown men and that if one was hurt surely the other could get them to the hospital. There truck was only parked about 150 yards from the stand I selected and they were both well trained medical professionals. I hunted the remainder of the afternoon unsuccessfully. I came out at dark expecting to see my friends parked beside my truck but they were not there. I noticed a note on my windshield. The note read “ thanks for allowing us to hunt with you but I guess we are not the hunters we thought we were---we are going home where there is some deer “. That explained the horn blowing.

The next week a good friend and long time hunting buddy came down and the warm weather returned. We hunted several days trying everything we could think without success. Things were slow so we agreed to come out of our stands at 12 noon and have some lunch at the truck. We were setting on the tailgate eating sandwiches’ when I heard a dog running something off in the distance. A short while later we suddenly spotted a big 10 point buck running straight at us. Needless to say sandwiches and pepperoni rolls went flying. The deer passed within 20 yards of my truck seemingly oblivious to our presence. We both managed to come to full draw before the deer disappeared into the laurel. A short while later an old beagle dog came following the trail. We shooed him off the trail but he just circled us and picked it up about 100 away. The last thing we heard was the dog barking about a mile away. My friend decided to hunt another area that afternoon so he went his way. 

I’d been there for about three weeks straight without seeing my wife or kids so I was getting a bit burned out and homesick. I really was at a loss for what I needed to do to connect. I decided to go down and have a look at the track the buck made as he was running by us. The track was about 2.25’ inches long and the tips were well rounded. I noticed that he had ran on a fairly heavily used deer trail. I got to looking and it appeared that all the tracks on this trail were made by possibly the same deer going the same direction. I went back to the truck and reviewed my topo map. The deer trail was on a bench that ran several miles along a long ridge. This ridge was called Still Run Ridge. 

Still Run Ridge was probably 2-3 miles long bordered on one side by Pretty Ridge and the other by Still Run Mine. The end of the ridge on one side dropped straight off to a two lane highway called RT 16. The other end led straight into Twin Falls State Park. Cabin Creek Ridge road ran straight down the middle of the mountain and it was nothing more than a occasionally used logging trail ( this has all changed now and it looks like a highway up there related to new gas wells and a new mine portal ).. I surmised that this particular buck was bedding off the park several miles away and walking this trail in the evening into the park to check doe. A while passed and I could here the dog barking on the opposite ridge from where I was at but he clearly was chasing the buck in a circle that would lead him back to me. I decided to set up on the downwind side of this trail and hopefully get a shot if the deer was chased by again. I followed the trail up the bank until it crossed onto a small flat on top of the mountain. The trail then more or less followed this flat in the general direction of the park. I sat downwind for several hours without seeing or hearing a thing. It was quickly approaching dusk so I started sneaking back down the trail in the direction of my parked truck. I was just about to break over the edge of the flat and start down the mountain toward my truck when I all of a sudden got the feeling a buck was near by. I have no explanation for what gave me this feeling other than a 6th sense. I came to full draw and tip toed the last couple of feet of the flat. I peeked over the edge and looked straight into the eyes of a beautiful 140 class10 point buck. I was at full draw but the buck was standing straight on. This is not the shot I wanted. However, he was only seven yards away and I surmised that there was no way I would miss his heart at that range. The shot looked good and the deer turned and bolted over the hill toward the truck. I didn’t want to follow right away so I skirted the trail and went to my truck since it was about dark. 

That night my friend and I made a brief search of the area without finding the deer. We thought we heard one run off when we approached the area. So we thought it was best to recover the deer in the morning. We weren’t afraid of meat spoilage since the forecast called for near freezing temperatures that night. That evening I was trying to convince my buddy that the deer was surely dead but he was not as optimistic as I was. I thought it was odd but he seemed extremely upset that he wasn’t having any success. The next morning I got a lesson from my friend. We decided to drive together to the hunting site and if we didn’t find the deer we were going to pack up camp and go home. I pulled into the same spot I was parked the night before and noticed something in the headlights on the ground that I originally attributed to a raccoon. However, the one shiny green eye was to big for a raccoon. I got out and walked toward the shiny object to realize it was the buck I had shot the night before. He had died within 40 yards of my truck. The arrow had slipped perfectly between his two shoulders from the front and exited at the diaphragm. The arrow had perfectly pierced his heart. I yelled for my friend to have a look. He ambled over to see deer. I could tell he was upset by the expression on his face. I asked him what he was upset about and he said why do you always get the deer why don’t I??” I didn’t know what to say. He helped me load the deer and things were quite on the way back to camp. I don’t think we spoke for several months after that. I thought that perhaps are friendship might be in trouble over a deer. He called one night over the following summer and we agreed to meet and discuss what had happened. I guess he had been embarrassed about his response to me getting the deer so he’d been to embarrassed to call. It appears that while he enjoyed hunting with me and seeing me succeed he explained that my success had wore him down over the years and made him feel like he was an inadequate hunter. I explained to him that I understand the desire to take a large antlered deer but that he should not be putting so much pressure on his self to succeed. The very next year he took a real nice 8 pointer that I think took some pressure off him. Even us hunters have our problems I guess? The moral of this is you don't have to be successful to be a happy hunter. You need to be able to enjoy the experience regardless of if your successful or not. If you put your time in and try to learn from others and from your mistakes you will become successful. Don't be in any mad dash to get there, I had more fun learning how to hunt whitetails than actually killing them. Taking one is just icing on the cake.


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## turkeyinstinct (Apr 4, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> We can cover that topic ( hunting suburban whitetails ) later if anyone is interested?


Please do when you get a chance....


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## muskybuck (Nov 7, 2007)

Dean,
When scouting, are you ever worried that you will spook the buck out of the area? I worry that if I scout, searching for the big bucks bed or core area, I will just be wising him up and/or spooking him out of the area.

Tony


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Yes I do but....*



muskybuck said:


> Dean,
> When scouting, are you ever worried that you will spook the buck out of the area? I worry that if I scout, searching for the big bucks bed or core area, I will just be wising him up and/or spooking him out of the area.
> 
> Tony


You'll never find it if you don't look for it. After I have located a buck of interest, I try my best to get him without disturbing him. The best time to do that is immediately after the season has ended. However, I do spend a significant amount of time scouting during the season and have spooked a few whitetails off their bed. What I have found out is that it will chase off the big boys initially but they will come right back in a day or so. Just don't make the same mistake twice or the gig is up and your back at square one. I try to treat a bed as a sanctuary and don't hunt it unless it the last chance effort at a buck I'm after. I try to spot them in their bed and then intercept them leaving or coming.


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## muskybuck (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks! Great thread Dean!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*You know your a whitetail addict when...*

You and your wife are taking a walk and your pointing out deer trails and watching for deer.


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## rbeddy (Jun 27, 2007)

this is some good stuff! you're getting me in trouble b/c i am ignoring fam and duties so i can keep reading :tongue:


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Quick point*

Now is a good time to pick up the best bait! The whiteoaks are falling in some areas. Get yourself a feedsack and go rake some up for use when the pickings get slim.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*TTT for our new to deer hunting Kansas member*

Read away.


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## adrenalineshake (May 22, 2004)

subscribing to this thread thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge


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## MN Ryder (Jun 15, 2010)

I've subscribed too, thanks Dean!


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## jamesbalog (Dec 14, 2009)

Dean you knowledge your sharing is wonderful, thank you so much.

I have a batchlor group of 5 bucks patterned like clockwork right now, 2 of which are definatly shooters and one is borderline p&y. Our season starts september 25th and i know the bucks will be hard horned then but not for very long. what are the chances of these deer still being on this pattern come opening day?

thanks in advance. 

James Balog


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*James*



jamesbalog said:


> Dean you knowledge your sharing is wonderful, thank you so much.
> 
> I have a batchlor group of 5 bucks patterned like clockwork right now, 2 of which are definatly shooters and one is borderline p&y. Our season starts september 25th and i know the bucks will be hard horned then but not for very long. what are the chances of these deer still being on this pattern come opening day?
> 
> ...


If I was going to bet I'd say they will have switched to White Oak and apples. Start scouting for them now in around where your watching the bucks and you'll be ahead of the game.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Tonight's tip*

Be sure to listen to family, friends, neighbors for deer sightings. Many of these reports can come in handy and are very accurate. I tend to not give much credibility to a giant buck sighting by one person but let two different people that don't know each other tell me about it and then the deer has my attention. I can keep tabs on a buck I've been watching for the last 3 years by different people telling me about seeing it. If the deer sounds interesting don't be afraid to go check it out.


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## adrenalineshake (May 22, 2004)

Hey Dean what has been your experience hunting the full moon in September? I happen to be hunting South Carolina this year opening archery and the week i will be hunting falls on a full moon I have read some info on hunting more during mid day and evening rather than early morning. Have you found this to be true?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Very little*



adrenalineshake said:


> Hey Dean what has been your experience hunting the full moon in September? I happen to be hunting South Carolina this year opening archery and the week i will be hunting falls on a full moon I have read some info on hunting more during mid day and evening rather than early morning. Have you found this to be true?




Sorry, I can't help, WVA doesn't come in until mid October. I've only hunted Ohio once or twice early. That doesn't qualify, perhaps some of you guys with copious September experience can chime in?


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## JRM6868 (Mar 10, 2008)

adrenalineshake said:


> Hey Dean what has been your experience hunting the full moon in September? I happen to be hunting South Carolina this year opening archery and the week i will be hunting falls on a full moon I have read some info on hunting more during mid day and evening rather than early morning. Have you found this to be true?


I found that on the full moons to have a stand hung close to the buck bedding areas. For me it was close to the edge of a clearcut the first flat down from the top which goes along with Deans 1/3 rd from the top statement. This way you can slip in there quietly and get in stand. The deer will get up and stretch and move mid to late morning for their minor feeding for the day and usually browse close to the bedding area. I used to hate full moons until I figured this out.


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## Fritzzer (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm an ista fan....Thanks for taking the time to do this!


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## GM HUNTER (Nov 16, 2008)

Great wall of fame Dean. Thanks for the great read.


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## Cthuntfish (Sep 9, 2005)

Dean Bower said:


> If I was going to bet I'd say they will have switched to White Oak and apples. Start scouting for them now in around where your watching the bucks and you'll be ahead of the game.


This will be an interesting year because around here, the acorns have been dropping for a few weeks (much earlier than normal). The deer have already switched food sources so I'm not sure how that will impact the early season.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*You never know*



Cthuntfish said:


> This will be an interesting year because around here, the acorns have been dropping for a few weeks (much earlier than normal). The deer have already switched food sources so I'm not sure how that will impact the early season.


The whole situation can and does change sometimes daily. Always observe what the wildlife is doing and and be ready to anticipate their next move. Sorry I haven't had the chance to write much more. I'm really busy around the house and at work. I felt the first bite of fall in the air this morning! It was 64 degrees when I went out!:thumbs_up If you guys get the chance pick up a copy of North American Whitetail and read that article Adam Hays (?SP) ( 3 -200" bucks don't lie ) presented. I think that can be very useful to many and it is time appropriate for many season openers!


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## Sniper26 (Feb 5, 2008)

great thread, ill take all the knowledge i can get when it comes to hunting, dean. I am only 22yrs old but i am absolutely obsessed with deer hunting, your stories are very inspirational and helpful, thank you bud. looking forward to more stories and advice:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*If your not already it's time to get at it!*

I've been increasing the number of shots I'm taking daily. I'm up to about 30 arrows. I'm still playing around with some different set ups. I got some FMJ 300 that are about 12+ grains per inch and have been shooting them along with my Gold Tip Pro's. The FMJ drop significantly more as expected but they sound like they hit harder and are definitly quieter. I've been measuring penetration and my results are not conclusive so I wont bother saying what I found out. I think where you hit on the target has more to do with penetration than what your shooting. I need to find an even median to shoot into. I've got 6 dozen Gold Tips and 2 dozen FMJ and putting through the motions. I'll report what I find out about next month. I shot probably 20 shots tonight from 107 yards and will report that there is about a 12" difference in trajectory at 107 yards just by switching from an 85 grain head to a 100 grain head. My groups are sloppy compared to last year. I'm struggling getting used to aiming without my 4X lens and peep clarifyer. I think my eye prescription must have changed. I can see pin with no contacts but can't see the target or I can see the target and not the pin with the contacts. Damn, I liked that lens kit! Here's a helpful tip: mark all of your fixed settings on your adjustable sights with some whiteout. Measure and record where all of your bow Knocking loop, peep sights are located. I mark my string in several places with whiteout to be able to tell if my bows jumps timing or my string has stretched. The more references you have wrote down the easier you can diagnose problems. I wax my string nightly and have never had to replace one and my string is 5 years old.


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## number1kyster (Jun 10, 2010)

This is some great stuff!


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## PSEWhitetail (Jul 28, 2009)

Great thread. I was wondering if you had any info on suburban deer hunting. I'm relativly new to bowhunting but it's becoming more and more clear that the suburban deer act a bit differently. What if any differences might help make the difference between success and an empty freezer. Thx


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## cgbills (Aug 31, 2009)

great thread


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Urban hunting*

This is a unique topic. The challenges of hunting in around homes and business with archery tackle can be challenging. First and foremost make sure that the ground you plan to hunt allows hunting and be sure you are familiar with your state and local laws or risk getting yourself into trouble which is under no circumstances worth taking a chance. Hunting suburban whitetails can be highly productive and to be honest is fairly easy if you can find a tract of ground that you can get set up on without getting over run with people. My first bit of advice would be to purchase a aerial or at the minimum a topographical map of the area. I would drive around the community observing for deer and asking any landowners if they have nuisance animals or if they seen many deer.

Sometimes you can get permission from land owners just by stopping to ask if they are having trouble. Just be prepared to be confronted by an anti hunter. Be sure to present yourself in a positive way to the locals. If I'm granted permission to hunt, I ask if they have a certain deer that they don't want me to take. This seems like a stupid request but this lets the land owner know you care what they think and you are respectful. Never get in a confrontation with an anti hunter just stand your ground. As always, be ultra careful in shot selection because you want to make sure the animal you shoot expires quickly before it gets in someones yard. As far as actual hunting goes to maximize your chances the key is gaining access to the appropriate parcel of land that maximizes your chance of success and then only hunting it when conditions are right.

I actually drive the area and make notes of where I'm seeing deer. I plot this information on my map. I also make notes of comments I get from landowners on sticky notes and then try to confirm these sightings for myself. As your driving around be on the lookout for deer trails. You'll notice that they have a tendancy to come out of narrow bands of brush between homes and move across the road and quickly pick up another tract of land on the other side. Try to identify food and water sources. Your looking for something that will concentrate a group of deer. Many homeowners feed deer in their back yards with feeders and sometimes by hand! You need to identify these locations and observe them at dusk and dawn to see what is using them. After you have gathered all of your information try to gain access to the parcels you can effectively hunt. Go back to my earlier post to review what the deer are doing in various stages of the rut and apply that knowledge to your strategy! If legal, a bait station is a sure way of luring in many neighborhood whitetails where you can pick and chose the location for your setup. We had a hunt here a couple years ago for a community association that was run over by deer. I don't like killing tame deer so it wasn't my game. 80+ deer were killed in about 1 month and that's a lot of dragging an skinning. I literally had to walk by deer to get to my treestand so I could gain some height so my arrows would stick in the ground after shooting one. Again, this was not my game, it was a neccessary but someone else will have to do it. I declined the offer last year. I think as you get older the killing weighs heavier on you. I like to hunt and that wasn't hunting, that was killing. Anyway back to the subject, taking a deer in suburban areas is fairly easy, just set up in funnels and along known deer trails. Scent control is always important as well as camoflage. Just be extra careful when your around homes and for goodness sakes be tolerable of people, pets, and property owners rights and wishes. We want to maintain a positive image and when your hunting in suburban areas you will be under the microscope.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Not archery but I hope it helps*

Deer drives in firearms season can be very productive if legal in your area. Try to select parcels of land that have thin bands of brush you can send several hunters in together and work with the wind at their back ultra slow and careful toward a group of strategically placed standers. Safety is of the utmost importance and communication is the key to shooting safely during a deer drive. The point for me writing this is that I've found that older deer especially mature bucks tend to try to slip back through the drivers. I have had some significant success by just letting some guys drive a tract of ground and me sneak in behind them with my bow. Many times an old buck will come squirting back through the line and clear the drivers and stop and look at them. 

I learned this back in the 1980's, I observed two separate groups of hunters drive this 200' x 150 band of brush. I noticed that several drivers entered the woodlot and pushed all the deer out except a big old 8 pointer which doubled back twice and stood in a narrow band of brush and waited for the standers and drivers to leave and then he just went back and laid down. I had a couple buddies go through the thicket and I stood in behind an uprooted tree with my bow. We didn't even have any standers,The drivers just got out of sight and the big buck came squirting out from behind a rose bush and stopped about 5 yards from me. I observed with great interest his alert ears and his legs looked spring loaded. All of his attention was on the drivers. SSShhh---thump and he jump and kicked and circled and died right in front of me. My friends that drove the block of timber came back and reported not seeing anything. I took them over and showed them the deer. They were surprised he got by them. One guy thought he saw some movement in behind some brush but wasn't sure. We walked in to have a look and sure enough we could see where the deer had stood behind a multi floral rose until they passed and then he came back to me. :tongue:


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I added a small album under my profile with field/trophy room pics*

I added a few pictures in under my profile. I'll wait until after AT does thier upgrade to finish it, perhaps they will increase the maximum file size? There are several pics I've never posted before. Maybe I'll get the scanner going again sometime and post up some more? Does anyone have any topic suggestions? Were starting to get close and the temperature was in the 50's yesterday. I noticed the deer behind my house are shedding thier summer coats!


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

You have more time than you think.Wait for the shot.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Welcome to AT Tim*



Tim Boone said:


> You have more time than you think.Wait for the shot.


I see it is your first post:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I've got the itch bad to get a new bow*

I think I'm going to the Sportman's Refuge to talk with master technician " Punk " this morning. I've been comparing various bows and equipment over the last several months and I've pretty well settled in on the Mathews Z7. I'm going to take in my Switchback and see if Punk will give it new strings and tune it up and I'll break in the string and place it back as my backup bow. I still have the original string on it and that means it is 5+ years old. I think I'm going to set this new Z7 ( 29" draw---70lbs--27" arrows ) up so I can shoot both my Gold Tip Pro's 5575 and my newly acquired FMJ 300's. I'm very overspined on the 300's so I'm thinking of adding some 100 grain weight tubes and shooting the Slick Trick 100's. I think that will get me spined about right; I'll verify my caculations with Punk. I shoot a target sight and there I can place two separate sight tapes on it; one for the 5575 Gold Tips and the other for the FMJ 300's. The Gold Tips will be my speed setup and the FMJ will be my power setup. Sort of a novel idea, what do you guys think??


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

Why TY and nice read btw.
:thumbs_up


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm a new owner of a Mathews Z7. All i can say is it shoots hard and stable


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## rdj-pencilart (Jun 22, 2006)

I like this thread already.. even if I'm a bowtech guy. Enjoy your new bow while I start reading this thread.


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## ILBowhunter22 (Sep 10, 2009)

Dean have you created a link yet with everything in order or a doc?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Not yet*



ILBowhunter22 said:


> Dean have you created a link yet with everything in order or a doc?


Not yet, but another guy on here is doing just that. Check out my albums, I was able to download many of my larger filed pictures since the upgrade!!! This site will take some getting used to but I'm glad they upgraded, the picture quality is much better!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not a fanboy. I like all bows, I just so happen to own a Mathews.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Basically all you need to know right now is to hunt food or water sources and be on the lookout for sign you can use later.


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## treeMonster (Jan 12, 2010)

Dean,

Congrats on the Z7! And, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have been hanging on every word.


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## St8shooter (Jan 17, 2008)

Dean I had asked you about mature buck bedding areas before but, was just curious what you looked for when scouting for potential bedding areas be it buck or doe. Types of cover, proximity to food/water, terrain, etc. Thanks. Great thread too by the way.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Doe and buck think differently and throw in a mature buck and things get real interesting. A doe will bed in thicker cover in close proximity to food and water as she safely can. A younger buck will do the same. An older buck that has made it through several seasons is fairly predictable in his bedding area in hill country but you must consider the stage of the rut to reliably predict beds if your interested in a buck. 

A doe will bed in cover near food and water sources. A buck of breeding age will bed in thick areas usually on the downwind side of a point about 1/3 the way down from the top. If he is in flat terrain he will bed with the wind at his back and an escape corridor in front of him. Often the escape corridor leads to a swamp/river or non huntable sanctuary, if one is present. An older non participating breeding buck will bed in the same areas as the breeding age buck but he will be found there through all stages of the rut where the younger buck will be on the prowl during the late prerut and on into the main rut, I hope this helps?


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## Dondee (Aug 30, 2010)

Big fan of your thread Dean. As a relatively new bowhunter..thanks to you for taking the time to put this together..probably read the thread 3 times by now and can't wait to hear more.


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## ILBowhunter22 (Sep 10, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> Not yet, but another guy on here is doing just that. Check out my albums, I was able to download many of my larger filed pictures since the upgrade!!! This site will take some getting used to but I'm glad they upgraded, the picture quality is much better!


I noticed the same thing with the upgrade. I think its for the better. On topic: You have definitely killed some serious bucks and am really glad you started this thread it is helping me out a ton. Let me know when you get everything in a doc so I can add it to my hunting binder :thumbs_up


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## InaStand (Apr 17, 2010)

It's official. This thread gets my vote as the best thread ever. Thanks so much Dean. It's like spending an entire season at the campsite with grizzled old hunters and condensing their best advice into one great thread.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm a big fan of grunt tubes when the conditions are right. It's no secret but my favorite grunt tube is the HS True Talker. I'm not sure if this has been dicontinued or not because I noticed that at Walmart they are displaying another grunt tube made by Hunters Specialty, I didn't see the True talker. I use a grunt tube at various times throughout the season.

I use it immediately before the rut on through the secondary rut. The week or two before the scrapes leaf over bucks are working scrape lines heavily. They will respond to a gentle grunt in a positive manner. Sometimes they don't come straight in but the grunt almost always makes them curious. I've seen them tip toe back and forth across a hill or through brush trying to steal a peak at the buck grunting and have often seen them circle downwind trying to pick up the intruders scent. The closer you get to the scrapes leafing over the more receptive bucks become to calling. You may actually call in an older buck at this time but he usually will circle down wind first. I have used them successfully during the peak of the rut multiple times on mature whitetails as long as they are not preoccupied with a doe in estrus. I could tell stories for a week about calling in bucks with grunt tubes and rattling antlers.

I once was hunting near an overgrown field that had a group of bucks running around through the field harrassing a group of doe. They would take turns chasing a certain doe around all over the field until they determined she was not in estrus and then move on to the next. I saw this as a golden opportunity for my type of fun. I found a heavily used trail leading out of the field into a small funnel between the field and a larger block of timber. There was a 145" 9 pointer who was the stud of the field posturing around and more or less bullying the smaller bucks. I knew he was not the dominate buck because I saw a good 160 class 10 pointer near there a day or two before tending a doe. I sat up in behind a big tree and some brush and softly grunted on the tube as deep as it would go. The buck stopped and swiveled his ears my direction. I blew a couple immature " higher pitched grunts " and then a soft doe bleat. His ears went straight up then back flat. He came at a dead run full tilt toward my position. I had already decided I wasn't shooting him even though he was really nice.

He came into the woods at a dead run and stopped just as soon as the trees surrounded him. I was about 40 yards on up the trail and considered my options. He couldn't see me but I could see him. Instead of hitting the grunt tube again I took the antlers and touched them on the ground lightly to simulate a walking deer. His ears perked up, I sofly turned over " The Can " to simulate a small doe bleat and then a soft grunt to simulate a smaller buck. That did it he came at a full run. I waited until he was about 5 yards from me and jumped out from behind the tree and yelled HEEEEEEEY! He absolutely came unglued and did an about face and was standing back in the field in seconds. He ran out in the middle and looked back at me as if he was calling me a SOB. I laughed so hard it made my stomach hurt. 

On another hunt my neighbor an older gentleman with heart problems asked me for some fresh venison since his cardiologist recommended it since venison is lean. It was rifle season so I took my 30-378 Weatherby over near this 20 acre thicket was heavily posted. The gun season had been in for a while and this sanctuary was loaded with honeysuckle and greenbriars, wild grapes, black cherry trees and a small water hole. I stood in between two power poles and hit that True Talker several times and then looked up the powerline that ran beside the posted sanctuary. Out steps two bucks together, one a small basket racked buck 1.5 years old and the other a larger 8 point. I didn't want to shoot this big 8 because I wanted to give him a chance to grow besides I know a few guys that would be mighty proud to get him. The bigger buck wouldn't get out of the way from the smaller buck so I had to wait until the smaller buck stepped clear. I literally had to shoot within 3" of this larger bucks neck to shoot the smaller buck standing slightly behind and a little to the front. I witnessed one of the funniest expressions I've ever seen a deer make. That 30-378 cracked pushing 116 grains of IMR 7828 at near 4000FPS and dropped that little buck like he was struck by lightning. It scared the bigger buck so bad he didn't move but I swear his eye balls bugged out:mg::jaw: and his lower jaw dropped open as to say "What in the hell happened to him?". He eventually composed himself enough to do some aerial acrobatics that would make Mary Lou Retton proud and get back in the thicket. I'll never forget that expression that buck made. A couple days later the owners of that posted tract pushed that larger 8 point buck out into a smaller band of brush that was not posted and I called my neighbor and he took his young son over and got that buck. He was very proud of it and brought it over for me to have a look at it, he was very proud. That's why I didn't shoot that buck. To this date that is the biggest buck that boy has ever gotten.:thumbs_up


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## mikel m14 (Jul 24, 2006)

Dean Bower said:


> I'm a big fan of grunt tubes when the conditions are right. It's no secret but my favorite grunt tube is the HS True Talker. I'm not sure if this has been dicontinued or not because I noticed that at Walmart they are displaying another grunt tube made by Hunters Specialty, I didn't see the True talker. I use a grunt tube at various times throughout the seaon.


Hunters Specialty's makes the True Talker 2 now


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Has anyone tried this new call?? Is it the same as the old one? I noticed it had a hard shell but it appeared to have the same ribbed rubber insert that looks a lot like a black ( windpipe ). I have had troubles with my True Talker such as the wooden insert/reed like to fall out and occasionally the rubber would split after a few years. I noticed the price went from $9.99 to 19.99. I'll buy one and give it a try. Tip for the night; if your arrow fletching have black marks on them your not getting a clean release and the fletching is making contact with something on your bow during your release. Your fletching should stay straight or your likely having contact with something. My new Z7 blackened 3 of my brand new FMJ's fletching after only several shots. A closer inspection revealed contact with the cord from my drop away arrow rest. I'll have to take it back in to get it reworked. Shooting arrows with plastic fletching through a whisker bisket will wrinkle your fletching, Wrinkled fletching under short range conditions shouldn't be too much of a problem. Black marks on your fletching is a big problem.No big deal for now, I've still got 6 weeks to get it straightened out.


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## turbodrive (Feb 7, 2010)

Dean, ive been reading your post for the past few days. Thanks so much for sharing your life long knowledge. You really should publish a book, i would defenitly buy one.


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

What are your thoughts on mock scrapes? I know you still have a few tricks up your sleeves.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Tim, sorry I was a bit tardy getting back. I tried mock scrapes for several years and had mixed results. I learned nothing that I could consistantly use to harvest a certain buck I was after. The problem with mock scrapes is that even if you get a mature whitetail coming in it will usually be a night. You guys that run the trail cameras have probably noticed this trend. I'm no scientist and don't use trail cameras but I just haven't had the results that I'm looking for. 

I have tried several different brands and several different mock scrape strategies over the years. I have had everything happen from deer tearing a 6" deep hole in the ground to completely abandoning their already existing scrape line. What I haven't found is a certain brand lure that you make a mock scrape with and a mature buck show up in daylight on a consistant basis. In earlier writings I posted my thoughts about scrape activity and mature whitetails. Basically 90% of scrape activity happens at night by mature bucks unless you get lucky and catch a mature subordinate buck that is frustrated. Most larger bucks circle downwind of these scrapes during daylight hours and they let the young subordinate bucks keep it fresh for the doe. I haven't hunted much during the very early prerut like now through early October because my season doesn't open until later. I can see where a hunter might have some luck drawing a mature buck off an apple tree in the early season to go mess with your mock scrape. This would just be more of a ritualistic warmup for the rut. Lets just say that I have set up over these mock scrapes for 40 days and have only seen one decent buck use them at daylight. I don't like those odds and can think of more consitant and productive methods. I have more frequently had success with drag lines around my stand sites but keep in mind that I chose my stand sites after perhaps a month of in the field study; in other words, I was fairly convinced the buck was coming through there on a certain day and time. I just used the drag line to distract him or lure him in a few yards closer. Yes, I have seen them follow drag lines right up to my tree but nothing consistant.

Sorry I got off track there with the drag line but scents are scents, you can use them several ways. I once found an active early preseason scrape line along a field. I placed brand X buck lure in half the scrapes. By day three all of those scrapes were abandoned and the other half was still being used. I placed brand X in those scrapes and by day two those all had been abandoned. Your probably asking yourself what lure I was using? I'm not saying but it is probably the best all time seller. What caused this to happen??? I'm guessing either the lure was tainted or more than likely the bucks using the scrapes didn't like the smell of the stranger for whatever reason. It is also of note that the food source shifted to about 1/2 mile away at about the same time frame. This in itself could account for the loss of interest. I had a little deal/experiment last year where I tried some scent on the " Big Boy " deer seeing what kind of activity I could drum up. I found an active scrape line out this logging trail around the side of a mountain about 200' down from the top. I watched this scrape line from a distant hill one day with binoculars. This scrape line was also one of the main travel corridors in the area. I saw a 120-130 buck come around in broad daylight and work the scrapes. The next day I went in and placed out some scent, VS1 I think???, ( all sterile of course ). I knew the Big Boy was in the area because of the feeder where all the pictures where being taken was on the hill above me 200 yards. The next day, I walked down to investigate if the scrapes had been hit by the Big Boy and found what I initially attributed to as turkey scratchings. 

Upon closer inspection, this was very interesting turkey scratching. It was in a swath down over a very steep side of the hill and zig zagged back and forth down the hill and as per my binoculars found their way down into a ravine. I thought this was ironic since they appeared to start at that scrape I put the scent in. I glassed the tore up ground again ( note---I glassed the scrapes from a distant---I glassed the scrape line from the next mountain over--I was trying to keep the area scent free for a stand setup in the event I confirmed Big Boys presence ) and noticed a broken off tree with deer hair stuck on it. This led me off the hill to investigate one of the most violent buck fight " crime scene " I have ever witnessed. 

I immediately went to the scrape and took note of the giant heavily sunken two separate big tracks facing each other hoof to hoof. The ground was tore to hell and trees where broken off and over from the top of the hill to the bottom. Every sharp snag around this trail had long thick hair on it. I actually told myself," damn, these bucks are locked up and I'm going to walk up on both of them ". I started contemplating the ethics of what I would do when I found them which I was sure was just on down the ravine. Well I eventually made myself down about two hundred yards from the original lock up and apparently they unlocked. However, the amount of sign I saw led me to believe this could have been fatal to one of the combatants. There was one sharp stick on it that had blood about 3" deep on the shaft. I searched the area for two days with any sign of locating any dead bucks. I let the turkey vultures and crows do the work for from above and I used my nose in a pattern search on all the ground within a 1/2 mile of the fight scene. I suspect that the two combatants were Big Boy and the giant 8 pointer we had seen on a few occassions. He was an exceptional specimen that could definitely kill another buck easily. Later, I did find an active scrape/rub line over in the next valley that I was sure was made from Big Boy because of all the real high brow tine marks on the rubs. The only deer P&Y got pictures of with exceptional brows was Big Boy. So, after much talk, no I haven't had much success with mock scrapes but I have had mixed results and nothing that I could consistantly use to take a certain buck. No story is complete without a picture or two. The below two bucks are the two I feel were fighting. The other picture is of the terrain they were fighting in. If you use your imagination you can see how easily it would be for two locked up bucks to find there way violently to the bottom of a hill:teeth:

I forgot to mention that there are some new trail cam pics of that giant 8 from this year. I don't have any copies but if I get one I'll post it on the Big Boy thread.


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

I use mock scrapes frome Oct 31 til Nov 3. The 2 1/2 year olds are pushing does around and the big boys are still waiting,but not for long.I'll place them around field edges where the does feed.I call this area the disco.I glass hunt the field and find where the bucks enter and leave.I'll find the right tree depending on the wind and move in for the kill.I pull a drag line in with buck and doe in heat and make a few mock scrapes around the stand.I have had several different bucks come in and freshing them up.Two years ago I had a nice 2 1/2 year 10 at first light rip it up followed by small 6 and 8.Then later that night a big 10 come in and dirt was flying.He didn't get too much farther.I had does come in also.It seems that by Nov 3 rd they just get on the backs of a certian doe and I'am done with mock scrapes.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for your post Tim and good luck this year!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Here is a little story about my oldest brother and I. I credit him with introducing me to hunting. Do your best to introduce a child or co worker to hunting so that they too may share a lifetime of enjoying the tradition. Hopefully they will pass it on to others so that our lifestyle continues on through the generations.

Early in my hunting career I would travel northern Marion/Monongalia county hunting with my brother Bob. He introduced me to hunting at the early age of 9. Bob learned everything he knew about whitetail deer through trial and error since no one else in the family hunted. He apparently enjoyed hunting more than going to school so he dropped out to become a full time hunter or so the plan was. Bob was the first man in my community to harvest a whitetail buck. He evidently spotted it while skipping school and went home to swipe my grandpa’s old 32 Winchester special. The young buck had so many holes in him it looked like a sieve. I’ll never forget the crowd of people that gathered at our house to admire that tiny little 8 pointer. To a 9 year old boy he was as big as a moose. I believe that single episode is what hooked me onto hunting. From then on my brother was Daniel Boone.

He would religiously take me hunting every weekend or I would pester him until he would. My parents would always allow me take off the first week of gun season to hunt with Bob. Over the years Bob and I would share our hunting experiences and continue to learn. The deer population seem to explode in the late 1970’s. Bag limits were liberal. Many deer fell to Bob and I. As the years progressed I became more interested in pursuing larger deer and Bob seemed content to shoot the first legal buck. 

I was about 13 years old and Bob took me to a spot called Gum Springs which is located off 119/Grafton Road. Gum Springs has one of the largest tracts of road less land in northern W.VA. As always, Bob would give me instruction on exactly what to do. He would always end the conversation by saying “ whatever you do boooooy don’t shoot no damn doe”. Back then it was bucks only. Bob sent me down a logging road and told me where to set. I hadn’t gone far when I heard deer running in the brush beside me. I looked over and saw three deer busting through the laurel to my left. I thought that one of the deer had antlers so I kicked off the safety and followed them through the brush the best I could. They disappeared into a laurel choked streambed and reappeared about 150 yards from my position up on the opposite ridge. I again thought one of the deer had a rack so I was planning on shooting it when I heard my brother Bob screaming from the hill behind me. He was saying “ DAMN BOY WHATEVER YOU DO DON’T SHOOT THOSE DEER, THIER ALL DOE “. He must have jumped the deer and watched me aiming at them and was trying to keep me from killing a doe illegally. He repeated this statement several times at the top of his voice just to be sure I heard it. I wasn’t convinced that they were all doe

The one deer that I thought had antlers was barely visible in the laurel. I thought I could make out two little tiny points sticking up. I decided to take the chance of being scalded from Bob. The rifle cracked and the deer dropped dead in it’s tracks. Bob came storming off the hill saying something like “ damn booooy I told you not to be shoot-n no damn doe”. I responded by saying I think it has a rack. He assured me that he had the perfect view and that I just killed a doe. Doubt and fear began to run through my young brain. I didn’t want to disappoint my brother or break any laws. So I was afraid!! We approached the deer and sure enough it was lying out on the hillside and no rack was visible. My heart sank and my ears hurt because Bob kept saying over and over “ see booooy I told you that was a damn doe-why’d you shoot it?”. I apologized and said I thought it was a buck. I could have swore it was a buck. The closer we got to the deer I could tell that its’ head was back under its’ chest and it was in a small sinkhole. I reached down a pulled the deer backwards by its hind feet to get it out of the sinkhole. Then all I could hear was “ DAMN BOY THAT’S THE BIGGEST BUCK I EVER SAW!”. He must have said it three or four times. I think I made him proud that day and thus the obsession began.


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## dpt1 (Oct 26, 2009)

^^^Great story


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## kwaldeier (Jan 3, 2010)

great thread man! every word is like gold lol


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Any topics of interest?? We should be stripping velvet right now and the bucks should still be in bachelor groups. They will disappear soon and start hitting the white oaks and apple/persimmon trees if you have any available. If it's hot and dry in your area focus on water holes both early and late. This is a great time to really start baiting if it's legal in your area. If you start now you should have a fairly significant group of doe come the rut that you can use to bait in the bucks.


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## jon3030 (Sep 9, 2006)

Dean,

Great thread, thank you for all this great advice. Here in TX everyone uses corn feeders and we do as well, however the only time I have seen a mature buck at a feeder (during daylight) is after the season in February when food is scarce. Is it a waste of time hunting corn feeders for mature bucks or am I just not putting them in the right spots, maybe I should tuck them into cover instead of out in the open?? When you mention "baiting" are you referring to corn?

Thanks!


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## brandon1008 (Oct 24, 2007)

i used to bait... good way to feed the woods at night.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, I'm referring to corn/apples/chestnuts/white oak acorns..... and the idea behind baiting for me is to lure in some doe that ultimately the bucks will be snooping around when the rut kicks in; I guess I'm baiting in the bait. It's your job to figure out where the bait " the doe " is bedding and traveling and thus setting up an ambush down wind of doe bedding sites. I also use acorns that I rake up this time of the year to bait later when the pickings get slim.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Brandon, set up your feeders to go off 30 minutes after daylight and 1 hour before dark. Get in your stand about 1 hour early. If your hunting bucks consider the stage of the rut and hang stands accordingly. If you have doe coming in, I can gaurentee you that the local buck are keeping tabs on these doe. Many make the mistake of feeding small amounts that can easily be cleaned up by one or two doe. I feed upwards of 40-50# a night closer to the season opener and through the season. This will bring in many doe that will all leave scent trails toward your bait site. Often the bucks will hang out in staging areas down wind of these bait stations and randomly charge out and chase doe around back in the thicket. They recognize the danger associated with coming to a bait staion in broad daylight. However, if they get hungry enough ( post rut ) or feel comfortable ( at night ) they will come to the station.


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## louie123 (May 9, 2009)

awsome thread cant wait to read more


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

The acorns are really starting to fall. The deer are shedding thier summer coats and replacing them with warmer ones; It is the time of the year for the disappearing act. The bucks will feed early and late. Try to find active food/water sources and hunt trails/travel corridors to and from bedding areas toward feeding and watering sites in the evenings and vice versa for morning hunts. The bucks should still be in bachelor groups. Rubs and scrapes should be popping up here and there. Some have suggested that the first rubs of the season are made near a bucks core area. I'm not sure I buy that but thought I'd put it out there for you. Again, it's a great time of the year to get serious about baiting in a large population of doe. I buy the corn by the truckload and it's about time to buy. I'm down to 200 pound for my feeder and I want to manually progressively up my feed poundage as we get closer to season. 

Shoot straight,

Dean


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## bobbal (Sep 15, 2004)

Dean;
Have you ever tried decoys?????


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Bob, I have tried decoys but found them a bit bulky for my type of hunting ( spot stalk/still hunting ). They definitely work and overall you'll do better using a buck decoy but occassionally I've had success with the doe, primarily during the peak of the rut. Keep in mind that guys/other hunters sometimes like to kill your decoy. I had it happen twice ( both times in rifle season :jeez: ) and found both episodes very entertaining. I think if you have a good buck doe ratio and thier is some competition for doe in your hunting area you should have good results with a buck decoy setup preferably upwind of your position slightly quartering toward your hideout. Doe seem to spook from decoy more than buck and sometimes that can bust your setup.


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## Timber Hawk (Aug 31, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> Hunt food sources plain and simple both early and late in the day. If a storm front is on the forcast hunt in the middle of the day. Hunt where the deer are feeding which should be fairly easy to decipher. It will be where you are seeing them, usually in; greenfields, picked over corn fields, green briar and honey suckle patches. Again hunt the actual food source or back down an access trail/travel corridor a ways.


Dean I really enjoy your posts, I plant food plots and wanted to add that when you do get alot of snow on the ground the deer will gravitate toward any standing browse above the snow. When you wrote honeysuckle patches in the above post I was just thinking that before I read it. Last year when my green plots were covered in snow the deer were feeeding like mad on the honeysuckle vines near my plots.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes honeysuckle is highly utilized by hungry whitetails along with greenbriars.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Boys, the acorns are slamming! I saw them piled up along the roads an inch deep. The deer are happy, us hunters will struggle. The deer don't have to travel far to meet thier needs.


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Dean, would you be willing to look at a topo of a public area I'd like to hunt and give suggestions where I should investigate? We could share with others and I could block out indicators on the map.....don't want too many other guys in their with me till I find the best spots. Or we could keep it private till it all comes together then tell the story with pics and maps if you wished. I also hunt with a partner that videos the hunts and would document as well.

Joe


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, just send it to my e mail address which I will provide you in a PM ( personal message ). I'll do my best just realize that aerials/topo maps are just starting points for the scouting process. Joe if you want to post it here I really don't care, that's up to you but I have sent you a PM with my e mail address.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I apologize for assuming*

I have received various PM from several of our fellow AT members asking some basic hunting questions which I haven't addressed; everything from; tracking to reading sign and playing the wind, finding bedding areas, feeding areas, deciphering deer trails....I'll try to address some of these with future post, hopefully this weekend?? I've got a brother just out of the hospital yesterday after 13 day admission with a stroke and a sister in law that just had breast cancer surgery yesterday that miraculously came home after surgery. I need to go assess them before I get to involved in any writing.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I just had a very rewarding morning. I checked out both my brother and sister in law and they are doing well! I talked with my 16 year old nephew and decided that it was time to show him the ropes. We spent the entire morning together and I will report that he was like a sponge. We discussed much and I'm 100% certain he is thinking differently. He has that natural hunting knack and has always been obsessed like myself but has always hunted with my brother that has shown him the brown it's down theory. We started by a trip to Pa to pick up 1400 pound of corn followed by a trip to my Pro shop where we put a nice drop away arrow rest on his bow. We came home and I removed his old 3 pin fixed sight and replaced it with my HHA 5500 slider I had as a back up sight. We discussed calibrating the sight to his lazer and shooting strategy's and techniques. He is very good out to about 40 yards right now. I had him bring his trail camera and I showed him all the important trees in the woods and how deer utilize each. We discussed travel corridors and and strategic stand placement and deciphering wind direction. We found a beautiful spralling white oak and I showed him how to tell the deer were feeding on them ( droppings everywhere ). We discussed potential bedding sites based upon what we discussed and we were able to walk right to several beds right where he predicted they would be. I showed him how deer travel in hill country as we were driving down the road. I asked him to predict where the deer trails would be found crossing the highway and by the time we got home he was spot on. We placed his trail camera on the whiteoak and it will be interesting to see what shows up. I'll post the pictures tomorrow once I bring the camera in. I'm off to Dicks ( oh I'm sorry, Texas Roadhouse " )with the wife under the disguise of taking my wife out to dinner. I'm actually going to buy my nephew a dozen or so new arrows!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

General deer characteristics---The whitetail deer is probably one of the most studied and pursued animals on the planet. I've had many request via PM and E mail to cover some basic whitetail information to those of you that are just getting started. I suspect there is much already written on the subject but I'll do my best to summarize. The whitetailed deer is a very interesting animal. I do apologize for skipping the basics. 

Whitetails have many characteristics that make them a natural targeted species for us hunters. First and foremost, there are lots of them and they readily reproduce.They have the ability to adapt to thier environment rather quickly in order to survive. deer use all thier senses to survive.

They have excellant hearing which helps them detect sounds from much farther away than us humans. They have the ability to swivel thier ears in the direction of the sound to maximize thier hearing. I would predict that thier hearing is slightly better than a human but not nearly as good as a turkey. A savy hunter when moving will obviously try to minimize noise by placing your feet down softly without dragging them. If you feel a stick/unstable rock lift the weight off your foot and reposition it. I more or less glance at the ground and pick my foot placement based upon what I think will be the quietest place to put it down. I skirt thick brush/dry sticks/loose dry leaves... or briars that will make noises rubbing against my clothing. Basically look out ahead of you and plan your path as you walk while alternating looking at the ground for foot placement while looking around for deer. If it's warm I select a pair of gortex hiking sneaker to stalk in unless I'm in rattlesnake country. This allows you to feel the ground better and tell when your on unsteady ground or about to snap a stick that will certainly alert the deer in your area. If you make a sound, hold tight for several minutes. deer don't seem to have a very good memory. If you are walking in noisy leaves because you have no other choice your only hope is that there are no deer within earshot of your noise. I do try to walk like a deer in these awkward moments. Take a few steps and wait and repeat trying to sound like another deer that is walking and feeding.Take your time and slower is good. Probably thier worst sense is thier eyesight.

Thier eyesight is not as good as us humans but they can see in all directions with the exception of the area right behind them. I'm going to guess they can see 300 degrees where a human can only detect about 180 degrees. There has been much writing about a deers ability to see this or that color. Reportedly deer see blue best of all colors. I'm not so sure about that, I've killed dozens of deer in blue jeans in my early years; perhaps they are referring to bright blue??? I've never worn any real bright colors hunting other than hunter orange. I will say that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that deer can and do easily see blaze orange. I have had them come running by me full tilt being pursued by dogs and pick me off tucked up tight in a brush pile with only a blaze orange taboggin on. A smart hunter would select a camo pattern that best matches the hunting environment your planning on hunting. I like the patterns that have different shades of brown in them like leaves that have fallen to the ground. The easiest thing for deer to see is quick movement. They will tolerate slow deliberate movements but nothing fast like a quick grab for your bow. This leads to the nose which is the most sensitive sense a deer possesses.

The whitetailed deer has an incredible sense of smell and they use this sense various different ways. They use it to detect danger, food, and water. You may fool a deers' other senses but you definitely wont fool his nose. I've had them wind me from 200-300 yards away and give up thier position by snorting repeatedly. They tend to use this sense to find food and they can smell acorns from a 100 yards away. I've literally been setting in the only whiteoak that was dropping nuts the only nuts in my area and had deer walking in with thier nose high in the air winding the nuts working themselves like a pointer back and forth until they work themselves to my tree. What can you do to counteract this?

The first thing would be to decrease the amount of scent you are putting out by keeping as scent free as possible. The more you control your scent the better chance you have at not being detected. I do much spot and stalk/calling/scouting and very little tree stand hunting. I can say that if conditions are right and you have done everything correctly a deer will not smell you even directly down wind from 5 yards. I will point out that in 38 years of hunting I only pulled this feat off twice and both times the temperature was around zero, I had on a brand new carbon chemical suit and a full charcoal chemical hood on after I brushed my teeth until my gums bled with baking soda. That is not realistic to do but you can shower with scent reducing soap,apply odorless antiperspirant, wash your clothes in scent free soap, apply carbon and/or silver based cover solutions to your body/equipment/clothes. Treestand hunters are slightly more advantaged by using elevation to keep thier scent above a deers' line of smell. Keep in mind that the air currents may push your scent toward the ground and if your in a ravine or a location where the air is swirling you may be picked off. The single best advice I can provide for combating a deers #1 sense of smell is to play the wind.

I have had many request to clarify this wind playing strategy. I guess I've always assumed folks knew how to tell which way the wind is blowing and then hunt accordingly. The first thing I do when I get out of my truck in the morning is to stand outside and determine which direction the wind is coming out of. I'm not a big fan of reading wheather reports because things can and aften do change by the next morning and sometimes even if the prevailing wind is out of the North West that doesn't mean it will be blowing that direction in the area I plan to hunt. Take a minute to feel for the wind on your face/arms/neck or pick up some light dirt and toss it or spray one of those wind powder sprays they sell to see which way the wind is blowing. Always hunt into the wind or cross wind and never with the wind at your back unless you are done for the day. I have hunted with the wind at my back in an attempt to move deer toward my buddies in organized forced deer movement. A smart hunter wishing to get to his stand would plan a route that would allow him to approach his stand without spooking the deer he is hunting. If I'm still hunting I don't have a plan on an exact route I'm going to take. I let the wind direction and deer sign guide me to maximize my chances. I have ran across unique situations where your scent is not real important that is worth pointing out.

Some of the areas I hunt have nature lovers/walkers that routinely go through my area. I have found that a hunter can walk just like one of these hikers and you can literally at times walk right up on deer without spooking them. They have become conditioned to not view walkers as a threat. The key is to not sneak along like you are hunting. They will immediately pick up on your predatorial characteristics and be gone. I have literally knocked an arrow after seeing a buck ahead and as I was walking attached my release and keep moving along the trail while simultaneously calculating shooting distance and where I'm going to shoot from. When I get near where I plan to shoot I draw the bow while walking and stop and quickly shoot. They will generally only give you a couple seconds before thier gone. This hasn'y happened often but definitely can be used in the right situation.


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## Gregg Bentey (Jul 4, 2009)

Great Thread !!!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I have reported that this was a good year for acorns. I'd like to revise that statement; this year is a bumper acorn crop!! The last time I saw acorns this heavy was 2005.


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## skarrecrow (Dec 6, 2008)

Marked for later:wink:


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## ltltony (Sep 14, 2010)

This tread has been great. I appreciate all of the time you are putting into it.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I just got through setting up a youth PSE for a little buddy I coached through basketball season last year. I was somewhat impressed after I shot it ,24" draw and all, and placed 3 arrows consistanly in a 3" circle at 30 yards. I'm going to have him and his dad come out to the house and have him shoot it a bit and set him up with everything he needs. Heck I might even let him shoot one of the doe that is coming into my feeder. He is an avid hunter but his bow has seen better day. I had this bow setting down stairs in the trophy room for about two years now hoping my youngest son would show an interest, he never did but man he can play a guitar. Oh well, the equipment isn't going to waste.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank you for all the good information dean.. trying to absorb as much of it as quickly as I can.

would u mind discussing travel corridors more 

thanks

Steve


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## clintonduffy3 (Aug 12, 2010)

This is not necessarily for Dean, as he has a lot to respond to, but my question is rather simple: For those who hunt predominantly out of a treestand, what has been your success in calling/rattling bucks during say 7-10 days prior to the "peak" of the rut? (meaning, getting them to come in close enough for a shot). I have had a lot of luck with this, out of a treestand; but on the other hand, have had quite a few deer, respond with some interest--and then stop say 70-100 yards away, looking for this buck/bucks. Of course, they do not see anything, so usually stop for a few minutes; and, if not seeing anything, they traipse off. 

That really is what my question is: What do you do to get the buck to come in? For sure, I've shot several, b/c they were so excited, etc... that they came in close anyways. I have had luck having a buddy go off in a direction where the buck will circle him, with me on the tangent to intercept him. I would say close to 2/3 of the time I get one to respond, with me in a treestand, they will not come in all the way. 

I've been bowhunting for 11 years now; but having missed the better part 4 seasons due to college, am only now getting heavily back into it. I've shot 5-7 bucks so far, which is ok for an early 20's guys. The information presented has been an immense pleasure and guide to me, much appreciation! 

PS: I imagine a decoy could work well, but do not have one and will not have one this year.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*My deer hunting advice to you document*

I'm going to try to post all of my responses and post on this thread. Several of you have requested just that and one of our members was kind enough to pull it together in a document. Just browsing through it, I see may typo's and grammar errors. If there is someone out there that wants or would like to clean it up have at it and repost it. Perhaps we can give it some of your friends or whoever you like. You don't have to put my name on it. I'm not loking for any recognition just happy hunters.

I tried several times to post the whole thing unsuccessfully.

I have this in an e mail if someone knows how to post it in a document form?


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

I created a document, fixed it up some things along with making a lot of points bold. Ill email it to whoever wants it or maybe someone else knows how to up load it.

PM me your email. 

It's about 50 pages wtih pics


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> I have reported that this was a good year for acorns. I'd like to revise that statement; this year is a bumper acorn crop!! The last time I saw acorns this heavy was 2005.


How about in the higher elevations in WVA? I hunt Wolf Gap and if the corns are there...that's where I'll be..


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## cwoods (Dec 22, 2008)

This thread is more of what AT is about....or should be.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Grizzl, you are in the mountains, those Eastern WVa mountains are straight up and straight down! I'm not sure about the mast crop over that way because I haven't been in those parts lately. I don't have any hunting contacts over there either???? My brothers and I used to hunt Patterson Creek, Schell Road, Nathaniel Mountain some. If your area is like the rest of WVa it's slamming with acorns. Don't get too excited, lots of mast makes it difficult to hunt especially if your a tree stand hunter. Your going to have to do some serious scouting to pick out a good stand but then again the last time I was in the eastern Panhandle " near Romney " you could swing a bat blindly and kill a deer. I once saw over 150+ deer run across the road in front of me on a back road by Greenland Gap near Scherr. I guess your hunting just South East of there? Is the deer population as high as it was in the 1980's?? I'd scout the area just off the end of Long Mountain just East of Perry, South of Bollinger Knob. The elevation should roughly be 2600'.


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

the population is OK-to low but the bucks that are there are huge ontop. I've had this spot for 25 years and its produced some nice animals and I've seen a couple B&C but no shot. It has to be a P&Y+ for me to shoot up there. Getting a deer off that mountain takes 8 hrs. I jeep it to the top on a fire trail 7.5 miles straight up like you said..then I hike in another 3 to a wet spring. A real honey hole if there is acorns. A hurricane came thru 7-8 years ago and wiped most of the oaks out on top..a few survived and they are magnets plus there is now a grass base that grew up because of open sky. Its also a very good bear spot. I hit it the 1st 2 days out there to hunt/scout..if its hot I stay..if not I go lowland..

If there wasn't a hard freeze this spring down low..I like my chances on top!

MANY THX!!!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Words of wisdom, skin them in the woods and pack them out! That is perfectly legal in those parts of WVA.


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## MWoody (Dec 31, 2004)

Very interesting thread! Had to subscribe to see where this goes!!


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## dat201 (Sep 11, 2007)

Some of the most useful information I have read in a while. Thanks for sharing.


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## mikel m14 (Jul 24, 2006)

How do you use the wind to hunt if the wind is not blowing? Just hunt wherever I feel like? While posting right now the leaves in the trees and the pine needles are not moving at all.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Usually there is a little wind. You can get one of those powder based wind checkers to find out, otherwise if there is no wind you should be fine in a tree stand:thumbs_up


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> Words of wisdom, skin them in the woods and pack them out! That is perfectly legal in those parts of WVA.


Ya..I store a drag sled and a hanging stand up there hidden in a rock formation. But taking an animal down those washes is dangerous..I've had animals start sliding and pulling you down those inclines..plus put you foot wrong and you'll snap your ankle..that deep in you won't be found for a while and my Cell phone don't pickup a signal. Then you have the low clouds that move in and blanket the mountain...fog so thick you can't see 3 ft. I got lost in the fog once...not a fun feeling

But I LOVE hunting the mountains..REAL HUNTING fer sure


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

The deer are currently feeding heavily on acorns ( mostly white oak ) and fruits where available. The buck are in the middle of thier disappearing act and all have shed thier velvet by now. Rubs and scrapes have popped up all over the place but don't really mean much right now other than telling you a deer is traveling that way to and from feeding. If your one of the lucky ones that have spotty or poor mast conditions you would do well to spend the majority of your time scouting to figure out exactly what your deer herd is feeding on and then try to hunt travel corridors ( deer paths ) that lead to and from the food source from bedding areas. Many areas without good acorn crops you may find the deer feeding in food plots or green fields. The bucks should gain 15-30# this month in preparation for winter. If your one of the unlucky hunters that have a bumper mast crop the only way to effectively hunt is to spend time walking to find trees that are actively being fed upon. Many times it seems to me that even though you have acorns everywhere deer seem to prefer one tree over the next. Here's a little trick I used near my home to sweeten/increase the mast production of a white oak that I had easy access to that was in a highly huntable location; I applied fertilizer 50# around the bottom of the tree with a fertilzer spreader. You would not believe how productive the tree is and how much the deer are utilizing this tree. I recommend fertilizing around February. We are still in the early pre rut so deer will be focusing on thier belly and a hunter should make stand selections accordingly.

Another recommendation is to start yourself a hunting note book or a document in your computer. You can make notes after your hunt on sign you've seen, weather conditions, deer sightings... This will enhance your ability in future years to predict what deer will do under certain situations. I have to write stuff down to remind me of what I was thinking the year before or recall a certain buck of interest I've been following. You'd be surprised at the number of things you'll forget in one year.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank you Dean... very well explained


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## bowhntng4evr (Dec 18, 2009)

Awesome thread. Thanks for the info.


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## ArmyArcher63 (Mar 8, 2009)

:happy1: Subscribed and following this one. :teeth:


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Dean I have a topic for you.

I'm sure others might have this on their minds as well..
In regards to scouting during the hunting season. How much of it do you do? The times you go out?, The way you dress? Scent control? Your movement? (brisk or slow as when you're hunting from the ground?) The time you give the area time to cool off before actually hunting the selected target spot? Do u take your bow with you in case you run into a shooter?

Thanks

Steve


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

mikel m14 said:


> How do you use the wind to hunt if the wind is not blowing? Just hunt wherever I feel like? While posting right now the leaves in the trees and the pine needles are not moving at all.


Just watch your thermals


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## PSE-Nova (Sep 15, 2010)

Are you possibly a drummer? Saw the drum sticks in the pic lol.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

PSE-Nova said:


> Are you possibly a drummer? Saw the drum sticks in the pic lol.


No those are my son's sticks for some video game he has. He does play the guitar and I'll be damned but he is real good. I'm not sure where that come from?? I'm not musically inclined at all.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

caribsteve said:


> Dean I have a topic for you.
> 
> I'm sure others might have this on their minds as well..
> In regards to scouting during the hunting season. How much of it do you do? The times you go out?, The way you dress? Scent control? Your movement? (brisk or slow as when you're hunting from the ground?) The time you give the area time to cool off before actually hunting the selected target spot? Do u take your bow with you in case you run into a shooter?
> ...


Steve, thanks for the question. You'll be very surprised to note that I spend almost my entire hunting season scouting every day! The only time I do what most refer to as traditional hunts ( setting in a tree with a bow ) is when I have successfully patterned a deer. This sometimes will take a days to years and when it happens it is like a light bulb being turned on. Most of my bucks are taken while scouting/calling/spot and a stalk. I sort of take into consideration all of the variables I mentioned and come up with a strategy that maximizes my chances for success. This dailey scouting explains the sheer number of quality bucks I have seen while in the field. I rely heavily upon my shooting ability to close the deal on the majority of the bucks I've taken. The most rewarding deer I've ever taken have come immediately after I solved the bucks pattern and them take him. The buck I'm following right now I know exactly where he is bedded and what he'll be doing in two hours. I know where he is feeding and when he'll arrive at the food source. I know how he travels in the rut and where he likes to hang out to avoid hunting pressure. I can't wait to put my action plan into effect. He should be an absolute titanic beast this year with any luck. So the answer to your original questions is I scout every single day until I have a buck patterned and then I hang a stand. I usually kill the buck on the first set and over the years have about a 50% success rate on first time sets. The buck I'm after this year will be my most rewarding hunt ever because I watched him for two years and studied his habits. The final piece of the puzzle came to light earlier this spring after a scouting trip to the location.

As far as scent control, I wear clothes that have been laundered with other garments that I use for the purpose of scouting. I have several stages of reduced scent garments based upon my planned activities for the day. If I'm just flat footing it across a mountain range looking for sign I just use regular camo jeans and shirt and walk with my nose into the wind. If I plan on spot and stalk or calling. I use clothes (last years kill set garments) that may have some scent lock in them and I spray down with odor reducing agents. If I'm on a kill set I will use a brand new carbon suit after I've showered using HS scent soap/deodorant. I get to my designated kill site and strip off to the underwear and wash off with those scent wipes and let myself air dry. I then apply Carbon Blast head to toe and let it dry. I actually let my body get cold and then pull out a brand new carbon suit after I have taken my old clothes and placed them in a sealed container and stuck them in my day pack. It is always a good to move slowly. The thicker the brush the slower you should move. I freelance my route based upon the sign I'm seeing and wind direction. The only thing I need to know is where my truck is ( that tiny GPS unit Cabelas sells for $50 ( Backtrack ) really works and is very easy for us electronically challenged individuals.It just point the direction of your truck/treestand/home and tells you how far away it is. I never limit myself to a certain plan. It can change at the drop of a hat.


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## p.red (Jun 6, 2010)

How about some details on exactly how you still hunt/spot and stalk? Does this method require elevation changes that you can use to conceal your location until you pop out at a strategic spot, or is there some hope for us flatlanders?? How can you sneak through the thick stuff without making a ruckus? Approximately how much ground to you cover in a hunt? In 30 minutes? 

I just can't imagine actually sneaking up on a deer in the woods in close enough range for a bow shot in the type of areas that I hunt (louisiana).


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

p.red said:


> How about some details on exactly how you still hunt/spot and stalk? Does this method require elevation changes that you can use to conceal your location until you pop out at a strategic spot, or is there some hope for us flatlanders?? How can you sneak through the thick stuff without making a ruckus? Approximately how much ground to you cover in a hunt? In 30 minutes?
> 
> I just can't imagine actually sneaking up on a deer in the woods in close enough range for a bow shot in the type of areas that I hunt (louisiana).


I can't specifically tell you how I would stalk in your area. I assume you have lots of swamps?? I hunted swamps in Illinois and more or less walked the boundaries and observed for trails coming out of the swamp and stood downwind of these at primetime and just watched. I also put on hip waders and eased through the swamp to find high ground. If I'm on flat ground, I try to use binoculars and move slowly. I usually hole up in a shrub and glass my surroundings and beyond. I plan my path to the next shrub I plan to hole up in. Try to use ditches and any slight change in elevation to your advantage. I frequently will drop in an irrigation ditch and slowly walk down it with just the top of my head sticking up. The best you can do is make educated approaches/movements. As far as sneaking through thick stuff quietly, I pick and cloose my paths carefully and don't go through any noisey areas unless I absolutely have to and then you most assuredly will spook anything within earshot. I will walk 100 yards out of my way to go around a briar patch or an area of noisey leaves/loose sticks... What ever you do, don't move with the wind at your back!


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank You Dean...


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

i have hunted many mature bucks in my area. great area. Large bodies and good buck to doe ratio's. I have tried rattling many times without ever any luck. always when i know the bucks are cruizing or chasing. I dont know many people in the entire state that have had much luck with it here. but other states, say its magic


where i hunt is in the delta of arkansas. the mississippi river valley. lots of great, but nocturnal bucks. the deer used to have tremendous pressure. not so much now, but still nocturnal. 

any advice on calling these nocturnal creatures.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

rivershark said:


> i have hunted many mature bucks in my area. great area. Large bodies and good buck to doe ratio's. I have tried rattling many times without ever any luck. always when i know the bucks are cruizing or chasing. I dont know many people in the entire state that have had much luck with it here. but other states, say its magic


I don't have much luck with it either, just those 2-3 magical days every year where they come in with mayhem on thier minds, it is a special time to be in the woods.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

Dean Bower said:


> I don't have much luck with it either, just those 2-3 magical days every year where they come in with mayhem on thier minds, it is a special time to be in the woods.


my magical day has been jan 3rd.


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## Afalex1 (Oct 18, 2008)

subscribed


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

rivershark said:


> my magical day has been jan 3rd.


South Texas or Mexico?


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

Hey Dean how old do you think this buck is?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

APAsuphan said:


> Hey Dean how old do you think this buck is?



OLD enough!! He's is prime 5-10 years old and probably 7.5/245+#/171" gross main frame 9 point and eating lots of corn! Who in the heck knows after they get that big?! That's a gross booner guys! Look how wide he is between the eyes with sagging gut. Notice how far apart his front legs are. That is how you know your tracking a mature buck! The buck I'm after in Ohio has his frame but is a clean main framed 12 point with 6" G5's and a long drop off to the side that makes him pushing 30" wide outside. The main beams also wrap clear around to the front.


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

when are you going to post a picture of that buck for us with you behind the rack? Pressure's on this year  I'm going to try ground hunting a bit more thanks to you. Can't count the bucks I've seen or shot on the way in to my stand. You ever stalk in a corn field? Might be a good tactic to master for those that live in 80% corn country and they can't get the crops out. Where would a big buck bed in there, etc.


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## eyebrowcounter (Mar 15, 2009)

Bump. Been gone for awhile this looks cool. I'm all eyes.


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

Dean Bower said:


> OLD enough!! He's is prime 5-10 years old and probably 7.5/245+#/171" gross main frame 9 point and eating lots of corn! Who in the heck knows after they get that big?! That's a gross booner guys! Look how wide he is between the eyes with sagging gut. Notice how far apart his front legs are. That is how you know your tracking a mature buck! The buck I'm after in Ohio has his frame but is a clean main framed 12 point with 6" G5's and a long drop off to the side that makes him pushing 30" wide outside. The main beams also wrap clear around to the front.


Thanks for the comments. It's sure going to be a fun season chasing this bruiser. If i dont put him down on opening weekend I'll be back to get some tips!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

TailChaser said:


> when are you going to post a picture of that buck for us with you behind the rack? Pressure's on this year  I'm going to try ground hunting a bit more thanks to you. Can't count the bucks I've seen or shot on the way in to my stand. You ever stalk in a corn field? Might be a good tactic to master for those that live in 80% corn country and they can't get the crops out. Where would a big buck bed in there, etc.


I've read about it only. I hunt mostly public ground and the few small tracts of provate I hunt don't have corn. perhaps you corn belt guys can post up a recommendation?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

APAsuphan said:


> Thanks for the comments. It's sure going to be a fun season chasing this bruiser. If i dont put him down on opening weekend I'll be back to get some tips!


Good luck with that guy, he's a brute.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

Dean Bower said:


> South Texas or Mexico?


Southeast arkansas. Hot and dry riverbottoms and swamps. soybeans, Rice, Corn etc. but the rut runs late. usually peak around christmas believe it or not. Peak rut on the west side is normal. but the east side, due to spring flooding in the spring could be the key to the late rut. but here you go.http://www.agfc.com/resources/Publications/08-09_harvest_report.pdf im in arkansas county.


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## GoneUser1 (Apr 12, 2005)

rivershark said:


> Southeast arkansas. Hot and dry riverbottoms and swamps. soybeans, Rice, Corn etc. but the rut runs late. usually peak around christmas believe it or not. Peak rut on the west side is normal. but the east side, due to spring flooding in the spring could be the key to the late rut. but here you go.http://www.agfc.com/resources/Publications/08-09_harvest_report.pdf im in arkansas county.


btw, my luck on first week of january i would say is the second rut. seems like there is a mad dash at that time


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## Whitetail4ever (Dec 4, 2008)

Question for ya Dean...right now it seems like there is a heck of a lot of does where I hunt. (Saw about 15 the other night) Should I/we take out 2, 3, or 4 of those does before the rut or would that be a bad idea? I know that the buck to doe ratio that has less does is usually better for breeding dominance.

Thanks!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Current research state it's good to take the doe out before the breeding season to save the bucks' energy. I'm not much for suggesting management practices because I don't practice what I'm told to preach so use your best judgement. If I personally was after some meat I'd shoot one of this years doe fawn. For my own greedy purposes ( self serving ) I'd save all those mature doe as bait for the bucks come the rut. I will tell you that is not the way we are supposed to think. I guess I have a one tract mind and count on others to thin out the doe. I'll be honest with you; I'm tired of eating deer meat. I'll eat about one 180 pound deer a year.


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## Baz59 (Feb 17, 2003)

This is really happening, isnt it?:frusty:


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

One might ask when the best time to rattle in a mature buck?? My experience has been that about one in 3 mature/dominate 5.5+ year old bucks within earshot of your rattling will make a move toward your position during the pre-rut. The single best time to rattle in a mature 3.5 to 4.5 year old buck ( not dominate ) is during the peak of the rut. Half of those bucks will move toward your calling sequence during this time and probably the single best time of the year to call in any buck. The little 1.5-2.5 year olds really dont care, they will come in evenly during all phases of the rut. Peak rattling time is before 1030am.


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## xforceAxe6 (Apr 12, 2010)

Just read this whole thing! Great stuff and I picked up a lot of knowledge from it. Thanks Dean for sharing your skills!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks this is exactly why I came on here. I've always liked helping people. We sort of getting slim on topics I could go into rifle hunting but this is a bow forum. If you have an ideas for potential topics post it or shoot me a PM. If any of you guys got something you want to add post it! This thread was designed to share information and ideas. Just some pics to show what it's all about, good friends sharing stories and adventures whether hunting for big bucks or sheds or just scouting the mountains. It just feels good to get away from it all occassionally and make some memories.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Id be interested to hear your thoughts on pressured whitetail bucks, and perhaps their late season habits and movements (locations) as compared to does. I have my own thoughts as do us all. But we can all benefit from someone who obviously knows his fair share.


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## camotoe (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge about whitetails...I grew up in a family of golfers and tennis players, so everything I've learned so far has been "on my own". It's great to see you put into words some of the things I've learned and hear ideas that have never entered my brain. I'm loving this thread. Keep it going.


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## camotoe (Sep 19, 2006)

What's your take on "the kruncher". the "deer view mirror" and "butt out"???


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

camotoe said:


> What's your take on "the kruncher". the "deer view mirror" and "butt out"???


That's funny, I guess your serious so I'll try to answer appropriately. I guess the Kruncher probably in theory should work. I believe I remember from my psychology classes that a guy by the name of Maslow did studies on monkeys?? and he would ring a bell and the animals mouth would start salivating in anticipation of being fed; So I guess it would work but I'm not trying it. That mirror thing would work too but I'd rather just use my ear and turn my head slowly around than pack the extra gear. I've casually looked at that butt out tool and it wouldn't be any use to me because I don't cut out the rectum. I just gut them and leave a 12" length of large bowel intact and I milk the pellets back toward the stomach and then tear the bowel in two and tie a knot in it and then pull the remainder of the guts out.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

njshadowwalker said:


> Id be interested to hear your thoughts on pressured whitetail bucks, and perhaps their late season habits and movements (locations) as compared to does. I have my own thoughts as do us all. But we can all benefit from someone who obviously knows his fair share.


This is one of my stronger topics but I've intentially shy'd away from it because it can be difficult to hunt pressured whitetails with archery gear. However, I will say that when deer get pressure they seek sanctuary and go nocturnal. What does that mean?, deer seek locations where humans aren't. That could be; in the nastiest thicket, the steepest hillside, the most far away location from the pressure, in your backyard while your out hunting, in city limits/sanctuaries/non hunting areas, along river drainages, in irrigation ditches, under brush piles/rock outcroppings/abandoned barns/under a lone shrub in the middle of a pasture field..... basically anywhere they please where they feel safe. A good general blanket statement would be hunt as near as you can to the thickest cover in your area. I try to think like a deer and that has paid off over the years. When I'm hunting pressured whitetails I simply ask myself if I were a deer where would I hide. I then go investigate and then hunt accordingly. I have many times looked at a cliff face and say man that is steep, I'd hate to climb that! Ten minutes later I'm slowly sneaking straight up the face of the hill!


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

A lot if great info as usual Dean. 

How about high pressured bucks from timberwolves? Lol! I've been dealing with that for more than 20 years and I am again this year. My only solution has been to change spots, always have a back up spot and pray they move on. I haven't abandon my spots yet this year, too early. I have had them stick around the entire season or even several years. If you're lucky enough to see a deer, you can be sure that thing is at DEFCON 1!!!


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## troyherm (Sep 2, 2009)

Dean
Great thread!
At what point do deer stop moving because its too windy. I was going to go out today because it rained all day yesterday and was very windy and I figured they would be moving today but there is a 18mph wind right now. Is that too much to hunt in. will the deer be to spooked to move?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

mn5503 said:


> A lot if great info as usual Dean.
> 
> How about high pressured bucks from timberwolves? Lol! I've been dealing with that for more than 20 years and I am again this year. My only solution has been to change spots, always have a back up spot and pray they move on. I haven't abandon my spots yet this year, too early. I have had them stick around the entire season or even several years. If you're lucky enough to see a deer, you can be sure that thing is at DEFCON 1!!!


You need those wolves to get a case of the distemper!! That happened to the coyotes where I was hunting in Ohio. One year they were everywhere and the next there was almost none with coyote skeletons scattered all through the woods!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

troyherm said:


> Dean
> Great thread!
> At what point do deer stop moving because its too windy. I was going to go out today because it rained all day yesterday and was very windy and I figured they would be moving today but there is a 18mph wind right now. Is that too much to hunt in. will the deer be to spooked to move?


 Good question, Wind definitely makes them as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. That brings back a memory way back in the 1990's. The wind was really gusting strongly from 10-30 MPH and shotgun season was in. My wife and I would walk back in the crop fields occassionally for exercise and she said don't you want to bring your gun?? I replied, "heck no!!, no deer in it's right mind will be moving in this wind ". My bad, we walked about 200 yards from the house and spotted a large group of trophy class deer just walking around in the crop field. I managed to abort the walk and get back to the house and assassinate one before they could get away. All story telling aside, generally deer hang tight to cover when its gusting 15+ MPH and then they move at dusk with thier ears working over time.


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## KennyO (Feb 5, 2003)

What is your favorite weather conditions to hunt? And how do cold fronts affect when/how you hunt?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

KennyO said:


> What is your favorite weather conditions to hunt? And how do cold fronts affect when/how you hunt?


I'd have to say a cool crisp November of about 20 degrees, slow/steady wind of about 5MPH with slightly over cast skies and a little snow in the forcast for later in the afternoon. If were really dreaming we'd make it a couple days before the peak of the rut with antlers/grunt tube in hand.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Thier still on the acorns heavy*

With the opening of Ohio scheduled for today I thought I'd post up what I feel is going on in the deer woods currently so that perhaps someone can use the information to score. I wont be going for the opener because the area I hunt is on public ground that traditionally gets pounded on the first weekend. I'll save my energy until the crowds have dispersed and I have the woods to myself or with a limited few. I made a trip to watch my son's football team play a game last night ( he's out for the year recovering from surgery ). The road from my house to thier football field is as a rule loaded with deer sightings. It is very common to see upwards of 100+ deer in just one pass. I spotted perhaps 7 standing in the traditional greenfields at about 7pm but that was all. I suspect they were heading off to the pond in the middle of the field to get a drink. I have only seen two deer hit on the highway this past week. I observe a group of deer near my house daily and use them as a study group. They generally come out of the woods about 630 PM and feed on the grass for a while and work themselves up to our small watering pond. They get a drink and by 7 pm they are feeding heavily on the whiteoak tree located about 200 yards from my house that I fertilized. They feed intermittantly throughout the evening on those nuts and top it off occassionally with a few bites of grass. Along about 9pm I turn on my outside light ( twin 500W halogens ) and notice they are feeding on my corn feeder and laying down in the high grass around the field. Early in the morning around day break I see them feeding on the whiteoak and then off to the water hole. They touch everything off with a bit more grass and then hit the extremely thick stuff below my house. They are bedding low in a valley where it is protected from the sun.It has been running in the 80's here and the deer have on thier winter coats. There are small rubs/scrapes developing almost daily but they are only mostly being hit at night. Wear hip boots and take a stick you haven't contaminated and just before dark go to a scrape and cover it up with the stick or wipe all of the tracks out of it so you'll know tomorrow morning at daylight when the scrape is being visited or better yet put a trail camera on it and you'll soon be convinced most scraping activity is at night. What does this mean to you guys?? I'd be focusing on water holes and the primary food source right now. This sounds redundant but that is the appropriate strategy.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

My plan for today is to take my new Z7 back to the dealer and accomplish several things to get it fine tuned for when I decide to go. I need to get my 4x lens kit matched up with the appropriate verifier that allows me to see both my pin and the target at the same time. You guys wait until you start to lose your vision. I also have shot my new Z7 enough to the point that the string appears to have stretched about 1/8th of an inch causing my arrow to have a very mild porpois to it at close range. I suspect I'll have to have the staff at the Sportsman's Refuge readjust my knocking point a touch. Otherwise I'm setting fine and sassy with 8 dozen arrows and probably 2 dozen broadheads ( you can never have too many ). Good luck guys on the Ohio opener!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets see your deer by the evening and let us know exactly where you killed it.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> My plan for today is to take my new Z7 back to the dealer and accomplish several things to get it fine tuned for when I decide to go. I need to get my 4x lens kit matched up with the appropriate verifier that allows me to see both my pin and the target at the same time. You guys wait until you start to lose your vision. I also have shot my new Z7 enough to the point that the string appears to have stretched about 1/8th of an inch causing my arrow to have a very mild porpois to it at close range. I suspect I'll have to have the staff at the Sportsman's Refuge readjust my knocking point a touch. Otherwise I'm setting fine and sassy with 8 dozen arrows and probably 2 dozen broadheads ( you can never have too many ). Good luck guys on the Ohio opener!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets see your deer by the evening and let us know exactly where you killed it.


The work is complete on my bow and all I can say is WOW!!! I can now see the target clearly at 130 after switching verifiers and man it makes a huge difference. I'm right back to my old shooting ways ( perhaps better )and that's bad for MR buck but good for Dean:teeth: 

Alright Ohio guys lets see those kills.


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## safetreehunt (Oct 23, 2004)

I'll take stand placement for $5000.
Because that's about what it cost me when I fell from a homemade blind.

**If you build it you will fall.*
Homemade treestands are a thing of the past. Boards nailed to trees kill people.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

safetreehunt said:


> I'll take stand placement for $5000.
> Because that's about what it cost me when I fell from a homemade blind.
> 
> **If you build it you will fall.*
> Homemade treestands are a thing of the past. Boards nailed to trees kill people.



That's probably sound advice. I used to build some pretty significant homemade stands that were over engineered for saftey purposes. Id build them in a tree that had a Y in them and drill out all the holes and bolt them instead of nail them. I had a group of locals that were a bit envious of some of the deer I was taking and one of them was a bit off his rocker. He slipped into my stand after I went home and undercut some of the support boards on my stand just leaving a 1/2" piece to hold me. I climbed in the next morning and luckily was hanging onto a limb " pre safety harness days ". The stand collapsed and there I was hanging from that limb. I managed to escape with just some heavy bruising of my chest wall which I hit on a cut off limb stump when the stand collapsed. Angry would be understating how I felt. I suspected I knew who did it since he seemed to be extremely jealous. I just let him know, in kind words of course, that if I saw him in the woods again he may want to spend his time watching for me instead of deer. I don't recall ever seeing that kid again. Yes, homemade wooden stands break, are sabatoged, weaken over the years, are heavy and difficult to build, damage the trees, are illegal on public ground, creak and groan sometimes with movement. I do like how that after you have built them you don't need a stand. I haven't used one in 20 years.


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## camotoe (Sep 19, 2006)

Dean...could you shed some light on the factors that cause deer to become more and more nocturnal as the season progresses? Rut? weather? decreased daylight? human interference?


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## danimal7802 (Nov 29, 2004)

Dean Bower said:


> That's funny, I guess your serious so I'll try to answer appropriately. I guess the Kruncher probably in theory should work. I believe I remember from my psychology classes that a guy by the name of *Maslow did studies on monkeys?? and he would ring a bell and the animals mouth would start salivating in anticipation of being fed; So I guess it would work but I'm not trying it*. That mirror thing would work too but I'd rather just use my ear and turn my head slowly around than pack the extra gear. I've casually looked at that butt out tool and it wouldn't be any use to me because I don't cut out the rectum. I just gut them and leave a 12" length of large bowel intact and I milk the pellets back toward the stomach and then tear the bowel in two and tie a knot in it and then pull the remainder of the guts out.


Didn't Maslow experiment with the "Heiarchy of Needs"? I think Pavlov was the one that rang the bell for the dogs that caused them to salivate. I believe it was Pavlov's Principle you are referring to.:darkbeer:


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

danimal7802 said:


> Didn't Maslow experiment with the "Heiarchy of Needs"? I think Pavlov was the one that rang the bell for the dogs that caused them to salivate. I believe it was Pavlov's Principle you are referring to.:darkbeer:


Thanks for the reminder, too many blows to the head and one stroke later, I've lost much of what I've learned.


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## dale9805 (Jul 29, 2010)

Dean Bower said:


> The acorns are really starting to fall. The deer are shedding thier summer coats and replacing them with warmer ones; It is the time of the year for the disappearing act. The bucks will feed early and late. Try to find active food/water sources and hunt trails/travel corridors to and from bedding areas toward feeding and watering sites in the evenings and vice versa for morning hunts. The bucks should still be in bachelor groups. Rubs and scrapes should be popping up here and there. Some have suggested that the first rubs of the season are made near a bucks core area. I'm not sure I buy that but thought I'd put it out there for you. Again, it's a great time of the year to get serious about baiting in a large population of doe. I buy the corn by the truckload and it's about time to buy. I'm down to 200 pound for my feeder and I want to manually progressively up my feed poundage as we get closer to season.
> 
> 
> Shoot straight,
> ...


glad i read this today! i've been feeling real bad that a 4pt i've been getting pictures of daily (on bait) since july has just dissapeared. i also have a small 8pt coming to that site but only once per month all summer. on sept. 5th i got my last picture there!!


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Hey Dean... Isn't it early for the Bucks to be Sparing? saw a picture of New Jersey Hunter Trail Cam of two sparing off few days ago around 7pm what do you think?


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## BHMTitan (Oct 17, 2008)

Dean Bower said:


> Words of wisdom, skin them in the woods and pack them out! That is perfectly legal in those parts of WVA.


Do you debone it completely to pack it out? This is something I've never tackled, but would make the job of getting the deer out of the woods easier. Some guidelines / tips would be helpful.


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## 25-06 (Dec 27, 2006)

Dean,lets talk about scrape lines for a second...I read an article years ago that introduced me to a new hunting tactic. This guy would locate a hot scrapeline and set a stand then leave the area and wait for rain...He said he watched the weather channel and radar to determine when the rain would stop and would sometimes walk to his stand while it was still pouring just to make sure he would be there and ready when it stopped raining....His theory was after a rain the bucks that made these scrapes knew they need to be freshened up and would do so just as soon as it stopped raining. He had killed a bunch of P&Y and a couple Booners doing this.

A couple years a go while gun hunting I found a grown up logging road that literally had a scrape every 20 yards..it was late in the evening so I sat up on a point overlooking the logging road. I saw several does that evening but no bucks. That night it started raining and I thought about what I had read,so I checked out the weather and it was suppose to rain very hard all night and part of the next morning. I got up before daylight and checked the weather again and it looked like it was going to stop around 10:30am. I had a long ATV ride in the rain that really sucked and then I had to walk about 1/2 mile to get to the point overlooking the logging road where all the scrapes were.While walking to the point it stopped raining and when I reached the point where I could see the logging road what did I see....A big gnarly buck was standing there digging in the scrapes...I was a little too late and saw me about the same time I saw him and jumped over the bank and out of sight. I figured I might as well sit there for the rest of the day,15 minutes later a pretty nice 8 came walking down the logging road checking the scrapes and he wasn't as lucky.He was not as big as the previous buck but he was nice enough.
I have not had the opportunity to use this tactic anymore because of my work schedule.I am going to try it this year if the weather and my schedule permits. Have you ever witnessed this Dean? What are yout houghts on it?


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> This is one of my stronger topics but I've intentially shy'd away from it because it can be difficult to hunt pressured whitetails with archery gear. However, I will say that when deer get pressure they seek sanctuary and go nocturnal. What does that mean?, deer seek locations where humans aren't. That could be; in the nastiest thicket, the steepest hillside, the most far away location from the pressure, in your backyard while your out hunting, in city limits/sanctuaries/non hunting areas, along river drainages, in irrigation ditches, under brush piles/rock outcroppings/abandoned barns/under a lone shrub in the middle of a pasture field..... basically anywhere they please where they feel safe. A good general blanket statement would be hunt as near as you can to the thickest cover in your area. I try to think like a deer and that has paid off over the years. When I'm hunting pressured whitetails I simply ask myself if I were a deer where would I hide. I then go investigate and then hunt accordingly. I have many times looked at a cliff face and say man that is steep, I'd hate to climb that! Ten minutes later I'm slowly sneaking straight up the face of the hill!



These deer are smart! One successfull technique I use is to get IN THE WOODS EARLY..I mean 1.5 hrs BEFORE 1st light. I am setup and *QUIET* at least 1hr BEFORE shooting light. I took my 135 buck @ Quantico Public hunting going back to bed just at shooting light. I had patterned it and found its haunt but never saw it in daylight. Saw it going in and out at dark though. Hunters coming in at normal dark hrs push these deer to go to core...I let them push em to me there waiting.

I waited for a "perfect day"..right wind direction, a heavy front just moved out with high winds/wet so I knew the deer would be moving. Went in early and setup.
All I could see was a dark shape moving at 15 yards. Thats why I use a trophy ridge sight with CHEMICAL light sticks for dark shooting. P&Y legal and you need to be able to shoot inthe last/first few minutes.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

They start sparring the day thier velvet comes off! Thier just playing around of course.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I take the tendrloins both inner and outer which are free of bone. I remove both hind qaurters and leave the bone in them for easier handling ( thier slippery little heavy devils ). I take the front shoulder and debone them; there is not much meat on them. I also debone the meat of the neck. The heaviest part is the hide when your done. I pack all the meat in a medium back pack after I have placed it in double garbage bags. Roll the hide up hair out to the neck and tie it off with a short length of rope/cord. Most locals require the hide for checking in but some don't.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

25-06 said:


> Dean,lets talk about scrape lines for a second...I read an article years ago that introduced me to a new hunting tactic. This guy would locate a hot scrapeline and set a stand then leave the area and wait for rain...He said he watched the weather channel and radar to determine when the rain would stop and would sometimes walk to his stand while it was still pouring just to make sure he would be there and ready when it stopped raining....His theory was after a rain the bucks that made these scrapes knew they need to be freshened up and would do so just as soon as it stopped raining. He had killed a bunch of P&Y and a couple Booners doing this.
> 
> A couple years a go while gun hunting I found a grown up logging road that literally had a scrape every 20 yards..it was late in the evening so I sat up on a point overlooking the logging road. I saw several does that evening but no bucks. That night it started raining and I thought about what I had read,so I checked out the weather and it was suppose to rain very hard all night and part of the next morning. I got up before daylight and checked the weather again and it looked like it was going to stop around 10:30am. I had a long ATV ride in the rain that really sucked and then I had to walk about 1/2 mile to get to the point overlooking the logging road where all the scrapes were.While walking to the point it stopped raining and when I reached the point where I could see the logging road what did I see....A big gnarly buck was standing there digging in the scrapes...I was a little too late and saw me about the same time I saw him and jumped over the bank and out of sight. I figured I might as well sit there for the rest of the day,15 minutes later a pretty nice 8 came walking down the logging road checking the scrapes and he wasn't as lucky.He was not as big as the previous buck but he was nice enough.
> I have not had the opportunity to use this tactic anymore because of my work schedule.I am going to try it this year if the weather and my schedule permits. Have you ever witnessed this Dean? What are yout houghts on it?


I've never noticed that pattern but you might be on to something?? Perhaps that is something some of you trail cam guys can monitor and study and post your remarks. This thread is about learning and if you have something to share I'm all for it!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

This sounds like your hunting dead in the middle of a sanctuary. That works if you beat them back to thier bed. I haven't wrote much lately but thought I'd point out that there is a slight shift with the bucks. They are starting to break up from thier bachelor groups and disperse in anticipation of the rut. They are getting curious about the doe but the doe have no interest in them. You should really start to be seeing some serious scraping activity now and if your one of the lucky one that have a food pattern nailed down you should do well hunting travel corridors to and from food sources. The weather is starting to cool and with that bucks will start moving longer. If warm weather prevails you'd do well to hunt early and late. 

Good luck and shoot straight,

Dean.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Dean Bower said:


> They start sparring the day thier velvet comes off! Thier just playing around of course.


oh ok.. Cool..thanks


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## hanglide4life (Dec 29, 2009)

thanks for all the invaluable info, nothing like tips from a true master.

a note on scrapes.. another buddy nuchols3 on youtube says when he finds a scrape, he'll kick it bigger than hell an churn the dirt so the deer smell that fresh dirt and come investigate.

I've also tried making a scrape with a stick, then peeing in it myself and guess what.. an hour later, a doe comes nosing around and then 20 min. later a forkhorn comes and uses it, and now since there is more natural deer scent in it why wouldn't a biggy come in? well I didn't see him that night.

My problem is, amost every time i go in or come out hiking back to the truck those deer bust me, not usually if I go in daytime sneaky, but when it's dark and they're very active and running around all over the place, I am almost always given the distress snort, I'll try to blow back and sneak away, but figure I've just blown another spot for a while..... 
I try to be very clean and scent aware, of course I hunt ridges and valleys/foothills and the wind swirls and changes seemingly constantly, themals with sunshine then the catabatic downflow as mountain cools and the sun sets....and the deer seem to wait till dark to move.. and I would love any adivice you have??


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## silverbullet (Oct 12, 2009)

subscribed


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> This sounds like your hunting dead in the middle of a sanctuary. That works if you beat them back to thier bed. I haven't wrote much lately but thought I'd point out that there is a slight shift with the bucks. They are starting to break up from thier bachelor groups and disperse in anticipation of the rut. They are getting curious about the doe but the doe have no interest in them. You should really start to be seeing some serious scraping activity now and if your one of the lucky one that have a food pattern nailed down you should do well hunting travel corridors to and from food sources. The weather is starting to cool and with that bucks will start moving longer. If warm weather prevails you'd do well to hunt early and late.
> 
> Good luck and shoot straight,
> 
> Dean.


Ya on public HUNTED land you have to get the pressure working for you. Like you said these deer seek out the thickest cover...2-3 yr cutoffs..3ft loblolly pine and hunker down..its takes allot to make em move during shooting light..1 is the rut..the next is a break in a high wind/wet storm front...I've seen more deer activity after a soaking and a window of good weather...

Watch the forecasts..if its bad and there is a chance of a clearing..get to the woods..you may get wet but as soon as the weather breaks..deer head out to shake off and warm up and eat...especially in the winter with cold fronts...

I saw my biggest deer EVER sitting thru a thunder storm 20ft up then having the clouds part for a few minutes...3 bucks ran together with one a sure B&C...never got close enough to shoot but its an image I'll never forget.

Find the cover..walk..google earth.. or follow the public land logging schedules and hit cutoffs after 3-4years...I follow about where the windstorms knock trees down..
A seres of blowdowns is a deer's best sanctuary..when I was gun hunting I'd jump plenty of deer at 10ft kicking blowdowns and brushpiles..they'll hang in there until you step on them
3 more weeks and I'm heading out!!


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote from hanglide4life:
I've also tried making a scrape with a stick, then peeing in it myself and guess what.. an hour later, a doe comes nosing around and then 20 min. later a forkhorn comes and uses it, and now since there is more natural deer scent in it why wouldn't a biggy come in? well I didn't see him that night.



A friend of mine is a game warden and he says all urine smells the same, so human urine is not a deal breaker to a deer's sense of smell. Deer, of course, have that scent gland they can pee across which adds the finishing touch.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

It's much cooler out now with the temperatures hitting in the 40's last night around my home. That should keep deer on thier feet a little longer feeding. The WVa opener is still two weeks out, that's crazy!! I'm getting antsy and already have a hunt sceduled. I have my Axcel slider with HHA scope 4x calibrated to 130 yards with my Gold Tip pro's and I'm getting 110 out of my FMJ. I have two separate sight tapes; one on the left side of the Axcel slider for the FMJ and one on the right for the Gold Tip Pro's. The FMJ appear to have the pentration edge. 

The nuts/fruits are peaking and that remains to be my recommendation for the current hunting strategy. I witnessed some doe feeding on some wild cherries last night and I found that very interesting since they were within 40 yards of a loaded whiteoak. I guess they were getting some appetizers?


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Hey. I found this print while I was out scouting today. 

What's size buck approx would u guess made this print? I have more sign to post up but I'm posting this from my phone


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

caribsteve said:


> Hey. I found this print while I was out scouting today.
> 
> What's size buck approx would u guess made this print? I have more sign to post up but I'm posting this from my phone



It's very difficult to tell anything about that track with just a picture. I really don't have anything to use for a reference. What I can tell you is that it's not real rounded up front but I suspect what your seeing is a rear print superimposed on top of the front foot. That soil also appears to be loomy/sandy which will enhance a deers depth he sinks in when he steps. I'd need a real close up of the print to give you an idea and which state the picture is coming from?


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## Ichabodcrane (Sep 4, 2010)

Wow! You are right, that is a rear footprint on top of a front print. I didn't notice it at first.:icon_salut:


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm in new jersey. The print and several prints are on the edge of a corn field. 
Ill upload the pics I took. The amount of rubs in this one maybe100 yard radius seemss 
Like dates back a few seasons. 

Here's a rub I'm curious with. One out of maybe 30 rub all around this spot a lot old and some like this one is fresh. 


What's ur opinion dean on the animal that made this?


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

All these rubs run back and h from public land to private land which seems to be fields (bedding area)
Or escapes from hunting pressure. But I'm just guessing as all the stands I found in on this property is. Away from he rubs.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Another


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Your really hunting what appears to be a staging area where bucks hang out prior to entering that field. You are dealing with a larger racked buck that is exceptionally tall. I see many older rubs in the backround on similar sized trees that suggest that this area has been worked over for my guess at least 3 years. This is the exact kind of sign a trophy hunter is looking for; rubs on a significant sized tree that starts mid thigh and is up to the chest and gouged deeply. Of interest is the fact there is a heavy brows line which suggest too many deer. I see that type of sign in enclosures but have seen it a time or two in non hunting areas. Regardless, I suspect you have a large racked older buck making that sign. It appears to be a good spot for a trail camera provided someone doesn't steal it ( it's pretty open ). I also see what appears to be several beds in amongst the rubs.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

cool. I have two trees picked up for my next visit. What time would u recommend. huting this spot? 
There's a water source in the fleild and about 40 yards within this area which have trails and rubs of smaller rubs leading to and away from it. 

I'm still confused in getting into the stand using the wind, really no easy way to slip in and out to the stand site of this spot


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, I'd recommend an evening stand on the downwind side of a trail leading to this area that has the exact same height rubs on it. As far as getting into that stand, the best you can do is plan an approach that allows you to enter the stand with the wind at your face. I'd arrive at least 2 hours before dark and preferably 3. Your best chance will be your first attempt so make it a good one. Be quiet and scent free as possible. Don't be blowing on any calls or anything, just get set up and watch!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'd like to point out a couple of things that many just don't know. When a deer walks it's rear foot almost always steps in the front track. This will ruffle some feathers but I believe that many older bucks rarely ever go back to a scrape unless they can't scent check it from downwind. They leave the little guys/doe keep it fresh and they just walk down wind and let thier nose do the work. Again, one looking to take a older buck off a scrape line would be wise to look for faintly used trails down wind of scrape lines with nice rubs along them. If you find one of these you just hit the lottery in the prerut!


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

oh cool will do... going to sit down tonight and plan it out..

here's another interesting sight i came across today


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Here you go Canada ( Vinny HC ). This should get you started.


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## jreay (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks Dean.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Extremely exciting stuff happened this morning. I drove to work this morning using a route that took me through multiple groves of white oaks. I pulled out of the driveway at 0500am and before I hit the interstate ( 3 mile ) I had already seen 7 buck ( not mentioning doe ) all feeding directly on the road on whiteoak acorns. Any guesses where I'd recommend you guys to hunt and hang trail cameras??


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## tattoo13 (Nov 4, 2009)

I sincerely thank all who have shared their knowledge here, it is not often people want to take the time to help others in this manner!


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## MOBIGBUCKS (Aug 12, 2006)

Good thread Dean. Nice job


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## mikel m14 (Jul 24, 2006)

I checked my trail cam today and I had it set on video mode. There was three small bucks feeding with a little light sparring between two of the bucks and thrashing trees. I thought it was a little late for the bucks to still be together but seen those same bucks together several times yesterday and today.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Your correct, some bucks are still together. I saw three groups of two a couple of days ago.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Had a slammer with a dink forkhorn this passed sunday. Broad daylight, in a crappy field. Just milling around and browsing. easily an hour left of shooting light left. 3 LARGE rubs also showed up overnight. Im itching to get back out again


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips guys, I had my first bow kill last night. The shot was at 40 yards I had a complete pass through, the button buck only ran 40 yards. 

I set up 20 yards before the fresh cut corn, I found they hit the cut corn hard and mostly on the edge of the field, so I set up in one of the corners of the field where the deer are more conscield. They feed just soon after the rain stopped 1.5 hrs before dark.


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

edit: only a 20 yrd shot...not sure how to edit a post

I’ll be heading to the cabin (Northern PA.) November 12th and 13th, it was stated that the rut will be full blown around November 6th weather pending. Since this is about a week later…

Would you expect a buck to be already bedded down with a doe in thick cover and not moving much?
Would you expect a mature buck to seeking for his next doe?
Or is the rut on its way out the door and would be looking to fuel up again and searching for food?

I’m trying to plan out some stand placements for when I got up north, I realize there are some variables here, but I’m looking for an educated guess.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Dean Bower said:


> Extremely exciting stuff happened this morning. I drove to work this morning using a route that took me through multiple groves of white oaks. I pulled out of the driveway at 0500am and before I hit the interstate ( 3 mile ) I had already seen 7 buck ( not mentioning doe ) all feeding directly on the road on whiteoak acorns. Any guesses where I'd recommend you guys to hunt and hang trail cameras??


Very knowledgeable information presented here. Spent all afternoon reading it!

I have two questions regarding white oaks & feeding patterns:

Very few white oaks here in "northern NH." (plenty of reds though)
Given this, what's your take on using H/S white acorn scent away? A beacon of danger, or a treat?
(Or not a big deal, they're going to smell my breath regardless of what I do, and maybe there is not enough difference in the smell of reds vs whites to matter too much.)

Also, I've heard deer drink water as much as 6 or 7 times during the day. Is this true even as the weather gets cold?
And how about their feeding patterns at night? Do they typically feed primarily at dusk / dawn, or do they feed throughout the night?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

There is no sure fire way to predict the rut with 100% certainty. The only way you'll know it happens is to be out there every day watching and observing. I've hunted for almost 40 years and have seen it hit from Halloween through the third week of November.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I have no clue on the acorn scent question?? I'd just use the real thing ( Acorn Rage ). It 100% without a doubt will work unless the place is overrun with real acorns or your deer don't know what acorns are. As far as feeding times I'd say a man would be 95% correct hunting food sources at dusk and dawn and the other 5% would be before an incoming front or after a front has passed. I set my trail camera out a night ago and got 50+ pictures of everything from rabbits/squirrels/doves/fox/raccoons/ to deer. I really like these trail cameras and can't wait to put one out on the giant 12 point with drop tine in Ohio this weekend:thumbs_up

Drove through the White Oak groves again this morning and there stands Mr Big 8 pointer 180+ pounds looking like he is getting juiced up for the rut, that will get your blood boiling!


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

Dean Bower said:


> I have no clue on the acorn scent question?? I'd just use the real thing ( Acorn Rage ). It 100% without a doubt will work unless the place is overrun with real acorns or your deer don't know what acorns are. As far as feeding times I'd say a man would be 95% correct hunting food sources at dusk and dawn and the other 5% would be before an incoming front or after a front has passed. I set my trail camera out a night ago and got 50+ pictures of everything from rabbits/squirrels/doves/fox/raccoons/ to deer. I really like these trail cameras and can't wait to put one out on the giant 12 point with drop tine in Ohio this weekend:thumbs_up
> 
> Drove through the White Oak groves again this morning and there stands Mr Big 8 pointer 180+ pounds looking like he is getting juiced up for the rut, that will get your blood boiling!


What trail cam are you running dean?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I got a couple cheap ones to start with. One is a Moultrie and the other is a Wildgame Innovation 4.0?? I'm going to pick up a Cuddeback when I go by Cabelas. I think I want to get one of those IR ones so it makes it more difficult for thieves to see the flash.Do you have any recommendations??


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

I only have flash ones myself, but I'd definetly buy an IR now. I used to have a cuddeback but it got swipped a month ago, it was very reliable and easy to use, but I dont really think that it was much that better than my Moultrie D55 especially considering they are $100 more. If I was going to buy a new expensive one I would get the smart scouter, that way you can scout your land in Ohio from your home without having to constantly intrude in the area. They will send all the pics right to your computer and if a theif tryie to steal it you will have their mugshot on your computer!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the input, I'm too cheap for one of those $400 ones but I've sure looked at them. How much is that Moultrie and how far away will it take pictures??


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

Moultrie d55 IR is only $100. 50 foot flash.
http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCIQ8wIwAg#


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## kwaldeier (Jan 3, 2010)

i have 3 scoutguard 550s. range is amazing ,as well as battery life (6-8 months) and trigger speed(1.2 sec.) $200 for one and they are worth it. if you want reviews go to chasingame.com


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## Whitetail4ever (Dec 4, 2008)

Dean, I have the Bushnell Trophy cam...VERY small sized camera (not too much bigger than a few decks of cards) and I LOVE IT! Infrared flash and very clear pics. You can pick one up along with a lockbox (for bear or thieves) for about $230. Highly recommend it.


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## mdnabors (Sep 20, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> Thanks for the input, I'm too cheap for one of those $400 ones but I've sure looked at them. How much is that Moultrie and how far away will it take pictures??


Get Bushnell Trophy Cam period! Under $200, takes up to 8mp pics, and last 6-12 months on 8 Lithiums. Better than any moultrie, cudde, or other i've used. Good Luck with your cameras...they are addictive!


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

Yes the Trophy Cam is a very good camera as well. I just dont like spending $200 for them after having one jacked.


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## Whitetail4ever (Dec 4, 2008)

Again, lockboxes are cheap..$30 at Gander Mountain....for the trophy cam at least.


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## APAsuphan (Oct 23, 2008)

Whitetail4ever said:


> Again, lockboxes are cheap..$30 at Gander Mountain....for the trophy cam at least.


Trust me if they want it they will find a way to get it lock box or not.


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## okieshooter777 (Dec 1, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> I too for years believed this theory that deer during full moons go nocturnal. Well during some of those fitful nights when I was in rut ( couldn't sleep waking up sweating and dreaming about big bucks ) I decided to take some walks. I have better than average night vision I guess developed from years of walking to and from my hunting site without the use of a flashlight through heavily forested terrain. I would walk to secluded meadows and places I normally see deer and this may surprise many of you but there was no more activity at night than you would expect. Yes there was a flury of activity from dusk until about 11pm and the woods was quite again. When I was younger I would just take a sleeping bag and a tarp and cuddle up against a log back in the woods. Trust me when I say you'll learn to identify sounds in the woods if you do this. Again it appeared the deer where a lot like us. They ate up until about 11pm and then laid back down until a little before dawn and then got right back to feeding. I love to be able to hear again like I did when I was a younger. The sound a group of bucks made chasing a doe through the mountains is incredible at night when all is quiet. Oh, the sounds of a bear whoofing/puffing and popping his teeth is equally entertaining or the sounds of a pack of coyotes ripping a deer to pieces or as in one case a very unhappy bobcat.
> 
> How do you couteract this?, I'm not convinced there is anything to counteract. I have still had fairly good success during full moons. Keep in mind that the answer to your question may not be the fact that it's a full moon but that the peak of the rut ( in my hunting areas ) actually happens in two weeks after the first full moon after the autumn equinox so in reality your hunting when it is not the peak of the rut and that in itself will account for less daylight sightings. You need to go back and figure out what the deer are doing and then apply the appropriate hunting strategy. So you might ask when that happens this year?
> 
> The fall equinox occurs September 23 this year. The first full moon will be 1 month later that puts you at October 23rd ( probably some serious scraping going down about this time ) two weeks after October the 23rd would be Nov 5-7 and that should be the peak of the rut in central USA. Keep in mind that certain things ****** the rut and may slow it down a bit like an indian summer. Again a little later in the south ( perhaps the next month ) and a little earlier in the North. I've been as high as Illinois and there might be a several days differerence between Ohio/WVa but not many. I can't vouch for Canada, I've never been there but if I was guessing I'd say early November. Ok Canada guys when is your peak of the traditional rut? I'm guessing real early in November perhaps Nov 1-10th??.



when you say central USA, would you consider this to be Oklahoma included? I have usually seen the peak of the run around the November 17th - 23rd.. Maybe what i thought was peak, was actually Post?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I know nothing of that far West, you'd better check with those guys. Sorry, I wont try to BS you, I just don't know??


OFF TO OHIO, wish me luck!


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## SILVERFOX3 (Oct 7, 2010)

Hi DEAN,How far do you think these deer will go for acorns,there are very few on my lot and they cleaned them up already and now I am seeing very few deer now??


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

Bushnell trophy cam listed at 139 on this site,

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BH119405&src=tpMfg


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## kwaldeier (Jan 3, 2010)

hey did anyone ever put all the info into 1 document?? if so PM it to me please!


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## boomer22 (Dec 31, 2009)

All i can say is thanks for the time your spending on this


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## three under (May 17, 2007)

I let all my hunting mag subscriptions run out this past year because I just didn't feel I was getting my moneys worth.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread the last couple day's and want to thank you for taking the time to pound it all out on the keyboard. I have emailed a link to this thread to a couple of my buddies who bowhunt and they have also found it very useful and entertaining.

Good luck this fall Dean I look forward to reading all about it.


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## ross-n-hood (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey Dean , I live and hunt in southeast Kentucky, for some reason the deer here have never respnded to any type of calls, grunts, rattleing, or anything. I thought it was just me, but everyone I know says the same thing, I know a older guy who is in him late 50's who does a lot of deer huntin in West Virginia, and he said he loves to rattle when he hunts there, He had the largest bow kill in WV last year. He says the same thing about hunting back here at home. What do you think the problem is with our deer?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Miles!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Just picked up $340 worth of camera and supplies--Bushnell Trophy Cam-8 megapixel--1 year battery life--steel security case--steel lockingcable---lithium batteries---16MP memory card---It looks good on paper--anyone tried one?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Yes, I have it in e mail form but it's too large to post, reportedly 52 pages. If you want to try it I can send you the e mail if I find it.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Three under thanks, I spent the entire weekend with my nephew one on one in Ohio trying to show him the ropes. He was like a sponge and eager to learn. I'm trying my best to get what I've learned out to as many as will listen.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Ross n hood, My guess is your using the incorrect calls at the wrong time of the year but that's just a guess. 
My experience has been that here in WVa there is only about a three day window of opportunity where they are really coming to the antlers like crazy ( just before the peak of the rut ).


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

OHIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was hot, the deer are feeding on acorns and watering.

They are only moving at dusk and dawn.

The acorn crop is huge.

The apples are hanging heavy.

The pears are hanging heavy.

The deer are feeding/feeding/feeding.....

I checked some corn fields and the deer are also hitting them hard.

All I can say is the deer are going to be fat!

I arrived Friday evening about 630Pm and drove around a bit with my nephew showing him around. We saw several doe all under the acorns and a few at the lake watering. We hiked all day Saturday and I showed him how to tell whiteoaks by looking at the top of the trees from a distance. We discussed deer using low gaps in a field to cross undetected. We then walked to low gaps and I had him show me the trail. I explained how deer like to use transitions between two different kinds of cover and we reinforced it by checking out some deer trails running between the big woods and a cutover. I showed him how to age tracks and estimate a bucks size by the rub he makes. I showed him sign from the 190 class I'm hunting and then we placed a trail camera observing this location. I'll bring back pictures in about 10 days if I'm lucky enogh to get him on film. The largest buck we saw was a 120 class 8 pointer and a 105" 8. Things were definitly slower than usual but it was hot and they are locked down on white oaks!


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## War_Valley_Boy (Sep 19, 2010)

Dean thanks for all the information i have a book that aso called trophy king had wrightin and it doesnt tell me as much as you have i thank you alot for taking you time.To help people you have helped me alot. if you could some time i will pm you my email if you could send all the stuff you have went over so far i would like that. I have learned over time that you shouldnt put out corn or other things untill the acorns are gone is this right.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

War_Valley_Boy said:


> Dean thanks for all the information i have a book that aso called trophy king had wrightin and it doesnt tell me as much as you have i thank you alot for taking you time.To help people you have helped me alot. if you could some time i will pm you my email if you could send all the stuff you have went over so far i would like that. I have learned over time that you shouldnt put out corn or other things untill the acorns are gone is this right.


Send me a PM of your e mail address and I'll send you what another good member on here pulled together for me. The file takes while to load.


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## War_Valley_Boy (Sep 19, 2010)

Dean Bower said:


> Send me a PM of your e mail address and I'll send you what another good member on here pulled together for me. The file takes while to load.


Ok thank you i will i have a Question. There is a swampy area down near my house that runs along a creek. I have never thought of scouting it untill today what would you do to scout this area.


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## jreay (Sep 9, 2010)

Dean,

Great info here, i absorbed alot of it. I was just curious as to deer movement and the weather? Ex. wind speeds, hot/cold, clouds no clouds etc. Thanks


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

As a general rule hotter than normal temperature slows down movement to the cooler times of the day or night. Wind greater than 10 miles an hour makes them nervous and will slow them down. Heavy snows slow deer movement but not the cold. Deer like cooler temperatures. I really haven't noticed a difference between clear and overcast skies unless a front is coming or has just passed and then there is an increase in movement ( sometimes dramatically!! ). A slow steady light rain seems to turn on the bucks in the late pre rut!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

War_Valley_Boy said:


> Ok thank you i will i have a Question. There is a swampy area down near my house that runs along a creek. I have never thought of scouting it untill today what would you do to scout this area.


I'd start by walking the perimeter looking for tracks entering and leaving the area, that will give you an idea of how heavily it's being used. Get back to us on what you find.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

War_Valley_Boy said:


> Dean thanks for all the information i have a book that aso called trophy king had wrightin and it doesnt tell me as much as you have i thank you alot for taking you time.To help people you have helped me alot. if you could some time i will pm you my email if you could send all the stuff you have went over so far i would like that. I have learned over time that you *shouldnt put out corn or other things untill the acorns are gone is this right.
> *
> 
> They will eat the corn right along with the acorns and when the acorns are gone they'll know where to look for thier next snack. If your looking to bait in significant #'s of doe you really should be placing out as many pounds of corn as you can afford daily gradually increasing the amount as the season approches. Don't place it in a pile or they will eat it and be gone. Scatter it out all over the place and make them forage for it. I rotate sites where I place the corn daily to decrease the chance of disease transmission. I use the same local but perhaps 20 yards away. My goal is to bait in the doe so they will later bait in the buck.
> ...


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

Dean, If I can somehow get your collection of writings I will turn them into a PDF and put them on a Acrobat account I have and I can post the link so anyone can access them. Then they can be saved or printed off or whatever. 

Chad


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Cannonball08 said:


> Dean, If I can somehow get your collection of writings I will turn them into a PDF and put them on a Acrobat account I have and I can post the link so anyone can access them. Then they can be saved or printed off or whatever.
> 
> Chad


Chad drop me an e mail and I'll forward you the post. You going South this weekend?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I bought the Trophy Cam/security box/lithium batteries/cable lock/16 GB card for some serious change at Cabelas. Who wants to sign up to be the person to steal it??? I can feel the pain already. I may just have to take some pictures of it since I'm sure as soon as I hang $340 dollars in a tree some jack --- will steal it! I believe $340 theft would be a felony imprisonable to > than 1 year in a Federal prison. I don't think that will deter anyone.


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## okieshooter777 (Dec 1, 2009)

So you say to keep lots of corn out in the area, to attract more does if possible... I hate going into the woods and checking my camera and re-stocking the corn. i hate to leave my scent all over the area. Is this OK to spend every few days re-stocking the corn, or should i put out enough to keep them happy for a week or so?


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

Dean Bower said:


> Chad drop me an e mail and I'll forward you the post. You going South this weekend?


Email Sent

No Dean Im not going to make it this weekend. Probably hit it in November. Came back from scouting yesterday. Getting good bucks on cam. The Acorn Mast down there is awesome. I could hardly stand on those steep mountains due to the acorns on the ground!





Dean Bower said:


> I bought the Trophy Cam/security box/lithium batteries/cable lock/16 GB card for some serious change at Cabelas. Who wants to sign up to be the person to steal it??? I can feel the pain already. I may just have to take some pictures of it since I'm sure as soon as I hang $340 dollars in a tree some jack --- will steal it! I believe $340 theft would be a felony imprisonable to > than 1 year in a Federal prison. I don't think that will deter anyone.


Real good setup Dean. The key to keep a trail cam from getting stolen is to hang it away from high traffic areas that you would suspect people to use. The Trophy cam is real small so you can brush it in real well. I have picture of people walking right past mine and didn't have a clue I was getting their picture!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

What ever you think, I put mine out daily but it is in my yard. The deer literally wait on it and are conditioned to think of me bringing a bucket as food! My friend puts out a #50 bag and scatters his all around. I also have a feeder that feeds 1 hour before dark and 1 hour after daylight.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

cannonball08 said:


> email sent
> 
> no dean im not going to make it this weekend. Probably hit it in november. Came back from scouting yesterday. Getting good bucks on cam. The acorn mast down there is awesome. I could hardly stand on those steep mountains due to the acorns on the ground!
> 
> ...


wish me luck!


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## okieshooter777 (Dec 1, 2009)

i just hate to push them more nocturnal.. But if that is not the concern then....
...then it is what i'll do! Lots of corn = lots of deer!

GL on your hunt!
and,
thanks for your post


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

Here is a PDF of what Dean sent to me. Just follow the link

https://acrobat.com/#d=EN9c8GWXqK*LkAIzv73BFA


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Cannonball08 said:


> Here is a PDF of what Dean sent to me. Just follow the link
> 
> https://acrobat.com/#d=EN9c8GWXqK*LkAIzv73BFA


Thanks Chad! It will take me another year or two to figure out how to make a link to a document and another year to convert it to PDF foremat whatever that is


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

Dean Bower said:


> Thanks Chad! It will take me another year or two to figure out how to make a link to a document and another year to convert it to PDF foremat whatever that is



Your welcome Dean, for some reason the Pictures in it didn't show up on the original you sent me on the email.


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## Ken K (Sep 15, 2004)

Back up for a very informative read....Thanks so much to the OP for sharing such useful information.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Dean

need some advice of stand placement.. hunted today
used my buddy's ladder stand .. in the AM saw movement was other side of ditch along the side of a little hill.. 
after the third batch using the same path and crossing point , about 11:30 i went back to truck grabbed my hang on
and placed it on the inside corner of this point (downwind) at about 5:40pm 4 ran underneath the stand stopping not more than 7 yards staring at me.. I might as well not have a bow at this point.. there was no way of drawing back..

this is long the end of all those rubs I posted.. 
walking back to the truck got to the corn fields and looking at about 15 deer running away as soon as I entered....
seemed to be infested today.. I know there's not alot of info to go by but I'm confused where I should set up.. seemed like the four under the stand were scouts for the rest in the field,,, earlier the evening I heard something similar to two fawns talking back and forth coming fromthe corn field


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

Bump. Dean, how's the hunting going?


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## hanglide4life (Dec 29, 2009)

Bump, we can't let the best thread ever wither!!

some more ques too....

So, what's in your pack when you hunt, a lotta weight? Don't you sweat like a pig hiking those mountains and with temps in around 80?? I do.

And when all the leaves are so dry and crunchy, every step is like a circus no matter how sneaky the attempt, unless the you move a step/ 30 sec, or min., but then you sure won't get far? 
So, you're best stalking is when wet or windy, right? how fast do you normally stalk?

and how about before the leaves drop? it's so thick, do you stalk the mature hardwoods then? And only when the leaves are down into nov. can you glass from afar and do the rifle poleaxe thing right?

I'd sure love to be able to not sit in a tree all day and still get deer, but it's easy to stick with what works..!!

Once I was blood trailing on hands and knees and looked up to see deer 30yds, but through the semi thick, great for gun but no way with archery!! maybe that's how to gun stalk????!


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## nevarrie (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks for the thread Dean. I have only been hunting for a little over a year now and most of what I have learned from hunting has been reading threads like this. I did learn some tracking about 20 years ago when I was 13 but most of that I have forgot. Also that was in the wide open areas of western kansas.

I am now in north eastern kansas so I have been having to learn how to find the deer in the hills and with lots of trees. I have found where the white oaks are in the area I am hunting which has showed me new trails the deer are using along with a few rubs. The one thing that I have found strange is where I end up finding tracks this last weekend.

The area I am hunting has a large soy bean field that is where the access to the land is. Over half of this field has been cut. splitting the land is about 300 yards of trees on slope down towards a creek and along the creek are two fields of corn surrounded by trees. The corn has not been cut yet. There is a pond in the trees on the slope. Most of the white oak trees are towards the bottom of the slope by the corn fields. There is a feeder on the next property south over by one of the sides of the soy bean field.

I would have expected to find most of the tracks near the pond on dry days and down near the corn or the oak when it had been wet like it has before this weekend. So I spent the morning sitting the listening down near the corn field. I heard almost nothing in the trees and did not see anything down around the corn. Then around 10 I went and scouted the trees and pond areas for tracks and to try and find where the deer are moving. I could not find any tracks in the trees where I normally had seen tracks. I finished my walking by following the side of the bean field towards the feeder to see if the deer had been traveling that way. I did find a few tracks on the opposite side of the bean field heading into the trees and off the land that I am hunting and a few tracks heading to the feeder but I could not tell how old they where.

Here is where the strange part comes in. I heading back a crossed the cut part of the bean field when I came a crossed several sets of tracks. Some of these tracks where coming from the property south of the hunting area and crossing to the tree line and coming back a crossed the bean field. Then I followed another set that have come a crossed the bean field to one of the higher points and then walking two to three hundreds yards to my smart car. Most of the tracks to the car where the front with the back foot in the same spot. But about 10 feet from my car I found a set of prints that where deeper as if the deer stood and looked at my car.

The wind was from the south and there is only the one road into this area all of the other sides of this area are woods or pastures. I would not have expected that the deer would have been more by the road, the cut field and near my car. Is there something I am missing or do not understand?

I am expecting to spend most of next monday and Tuesday out hunting in this area, but I am not sure I am really understanding what I should be looking for. I know that in this area pre rut should be ending and rut beginning so I am hoping an estrus can we help me call in something but I am not sure I know where I should be putting myself other then down wind. Any help would be great.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

TailChaser said:


> Bump. Dean, how's the hunting going?


I'm not doing much hunting yet just preparing and scouting. I had all of my gear out the other day at the end of the yard cleaning and descenting it. I more or less washed all of my undergarments in HS Scent clothes detergent and packed it out to a clothes line I have set up in the woods. I hung all the clothing on it and sprayed it all down with copious amounts of Carbon Blast and let it air dry. I then packed everything away in airtight containers. I'm doing some last minute clothes washing tonight and will finish my packing. I have a new HCS Scent loc Leafy Wear outfit ready to go and one military chemical suit in the event I need 100% scent containment. I only set in a tree once or twice a year so when I do I want to be prepared. As far as equipment goes I'm more or less ready.

I have roughly 6-8 dozen arrows and several dozen broadheads ready to go. I've found that I really like the Slick Tricks and have found them to have field near field point accuracy. The new Mathews Z7 I purchased performs strongly and I'm very confident in hitting what I'm aiming at. I have all of my fixed screws loc tited and my adjustable sights marked in several ways that way I know with a glance if something has moved. I went back to my 4x lens and had to switch verifiers to match my new eye prescription. I'm shooting fairly accurate out to 130 yards so the chip shots should be routine. I spent the last several weeks playing with trail cameras and I like them ( Wild Game Innovation one sucks, it takes night pictures that look like a flashlight shining on the deer ). I'd like to report that if I catch someone trying to steal one I'm sticking an arrow up your backside. :teeth:

I gave up on the giant I was helping with last year in Southern WVa and I'm focusing on the buck I've been following in Ohio. Too many thieves and renegades down in those parts that might get me into trouble.The buck in Ohio is no world record or anything but is one of the best public land bucks I've ever found. Like many of you, I'm really starting to get excited because my hunting season is just around the corner. I don't have the vacation available to me that I normally have related to burning some on a sick child. Thank godness he is well now. To be honest his illness had me very depressed and worried. I've already seen, off the top of my head, 5 P&Y but nothing over 150". The deer are still feeding on acorns but I think they are getting board with them. I've seen an increase in the last week the number of deer I'm seeing out on the grass. I'm also starting to see some increased buck movement. It's raining now and I'd love to be in the woods but I don't want to tempt myself on a local 150 I've been letting go for a younger hunter to try to take. I hope everyone does well this year.

Dean


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

hanglide4life said:


> Bump, we can't let the best thread ever wither!!
> 
> some more ques too....
> 
> ...


My favorite hunting method is to still hunt and spot and stalk. I rely heavily on my shooting to pull me through some difficult situations.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

nevarrie said:


> Thanks for the thread Dean. I have only been hunting for a little over a year now and most of what I have learned from hunting has been reading threads like this. I did learn some tracking about 20 years ago when I was 13 but most of that I have forgot. Also that was in the wide open areas of western kansas.
> 
> I am now in north eastern kansas so I have been having to learn how to find the deer in the hills and with lots of trees. I have found where the white oaks are in the area I am hunting which has showed me new trails the deer are using along with a few rubs. The one thing that I have found strange is where I end up finding tracks this last weekend.
> 
> ...


Yikes, I'm confused! It sounds like you have multiple food and water sources not to mention bedding areas. You also have an individual feeding deer which may have them conditioned to human activity. There is a small chance that an indivual may be feeding them out of a car and the deer have become accustomed to going to a car for snacks, I've seen that more than once. I've also parked my 4 wheeler way back in the mountains and hunt all day to come back and see where a buck shredded the trees all around my 4 wheeler while I was gone. Deer are funny creatures, just when you think you have them figured out they do something different. Eventually they will finish harvesting the crops and will force the deer into that woodlot. Have your stand site picked out for when the rut gets going. Remember, the older bucks like to conceal themselves while the are cruising whether it's in a woodlot, along a streambank or ravine. Make your plan now to score later.


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## nevarrie (Oct 6, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> Yikes, I'm confused! It sounds like you have multiple food and water sources not to mention bedding areas. You also have an individual feeding deer which may have them conditioned to human activity. There is a small chance that an indivual may be feeding them out of a car and the deer have become accustomed to going to a car for snacks, I've seen that more than once. I've also parked my 4 wheeler way back in the mountains and hunt all day to come back and see where a buck shredded the trees all around my 4 wheeler while I was gone. Deer are funny creatures, just when you think you have them figured out they do something different. Eventually they will finish harvesting the crops and will force the deer into that woodlot. Have your stand site picked out for when the rut gets going. Remember, the older bucks like to conceal themselves while the are cruising whether it's in a woodlot, along a streambank or ravine. Make your plan now to score later.


Thanks Dean. I had not thought about that the deer might be getting feed at the gate. I had guessed that part of the reason I was seeing tracks going to the gate was that they where going out one opening in the fence to go into the next field since these are the only openings in the fence and there are no gates. Would this only be does that might be using the gates or will bucks do that too?


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## Timber Hawk (Aug 31, 2007)

keep us posted on your hunting Dean. Thanks.


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## GrimReap'r (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi Dean
I've been keeping up on your thread, great info thanks.
I wonder if you can explain some buck movement as the deer ages.
When do the bucks leave the doe group to move to a new area, my guess is about 1.5? how long do they stay in that new area? Do they return to their old areas? Do the move to a different area during the rut?

If a 2.5 year old buck is seen after the hunting season is over will he be back in the same area for the rut next year. I watched two 2.5year old 8 points last year (at least 20 times each) and was hoping I would see them again when they are 3.5 or are they gone to a new area. But have not seen them yet (most of last years sighting were right before rut and after, may have seen one of them after antler dropped)


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## turkeyinstinct (Apr 4, 2007)

Dean, Do you believe in any estrous or other kind of attractant scents during the rut? If so how do you go about using them? 

I am thinking with the pressured deer here in MI maybe I am best to try to be the ghost in the woods??


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

GrimReap'r said:


> Hi Dean
> I've been keeping up on your thread, great info thanks.
> I wonder if you can explain some buck movement as the deer ages.
> When do the bucks leave the doe group to move to a new area, my guess is about 1.5? how long do they stay in that new area? Do they return to their old areas? Do the move to a different area during the rut?
> ...


Good questions, most bucks disperse from thier home range at the end of the summer to early fall of thier first year; the last ones are moving as I write. If a man would have been paying attention in October you would have noticed a drastic increase in the number of dead 1.5 year old bucks on the highway. They disperse 1.5 to roughly 10 miles from thier core area. As far as buck movement, 1.5 year olds move like doe ( all the time ). The 2.5 year olds through 3.5 year olds move a tad less but much more during the rut. The 4.5-6.5 bucks start slowing down and go on lockdown during the daylight until the rut. Anything older than that just lock down and some don't participate in the rut unless it is under the cover of darkness. Many don't know it but some bucks will travel 6-10 miles to rut and then move back near thier core post rut.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

turkeyinstinct said:


> Dean, Do you believe in any estrous or other kind of attractant scents during the rut? If so how do you go about using them?
> 
> I am thinking with the pressured deer here in MI maybe I am best to try to be the ghost in the woods??


I've tried them all and have found none to be 100% effective. The best you can hope for is to slow one down enough to get off a shot. I have had good success with Acorn Rage.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*What's going on now in the woods?*

Scrapes are very active and bucks have separated. They should be vulnerable to some subtle rattling and grunting. Hunt down wind of scrape lines on big rub lines for trophy buck. The nuts more or less were blown out of the trees with the big wind storm locally. The bucks are back on the whiteoaks finishing the last ones. They should soon switch to red and black oaks. Don't forget the water sources. The bucks have heavy winter coats and will be thirsty. We should have about 2 weeks until the peak of the rut here in central US. I really haven't seen a huge increase in the number of road kills. When you see the deer really starting to get blasted on the highway it's time to burn your vacation/sick days!


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## DeerSlayer2012 (Oct 26, 2010)

Dean, 
you seem like you know what the heack your talking about! i wish you could come to the woods i hunt to help me increase my chances of getting that big buck! im open to any adive that i get so do you think you could help me out a little bit? this is my first year bow hunting and im only 17 so im not as advanced as you are.


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## WVXFORCE (Jul 17, 2007)

dean, this could be a good weekend for the southern wv boyz..to bad im in training until sat late morn..hopefully the eve will be productive..one cool thing happened to me for ..im at a hotel in Cross Lanes..the land surrounding looks like its awesome for some nice bucks..been lookin out my window with the binos all week..so this morn i get to my truck and look up and low and behold, not a giant but a almost solid white doe..a little brown on her face..nice llokin piebald....just got the oh fire crankin!!good luck


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## rdj-pencilart (Jun 22, 2006)

DeerSlayer2012 said:


> Dean,
> you seem like you know what the heack your talking about! i wish you could come to the woods i hunt to help me increase my chances of getting that big buck! im open to any adive that i get so do you think you could help me out a little bit? this is my first year bow hunting and im only 17 so im not as advanced as you are.


Just don't forget.. we were all young once.. even Dean would say it.. we all start from A to get to B and so on. You'll get the best advise from Dean


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## GrimReap'r (Aug 25, 2010)

Dean thanks for the clarification on buck movement as they age (it's like ohhh that makes sense now)

What percentage/fraction of the buck age groups do you think get killed during the Hunting season
Around here the buck must have 4 points on one side which puts most of them at 2.5 years old and I would guess that 1/2 or more of those get killed
Not sure after that cause I don’t see many over 2.5 (the last 7 buck I harvested one was a 3.5)


Do you think many bucks die of old age or are they all hunted by then.


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## BLan (Aug 16, 2010)

:teeth:


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## hanglide4life (Dec 29, 2009)

Hey dean, what are your thoughts on the natural scents like cutting off the tarsals of early gotten buck and doe for use as it gets into november? I put them in a ziplock and froze them. How should I or not use them, add urine, drag or just hang along trail? Have you had any luck with that?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

WVXFORCE said:


> dean, this could be a good weekend for the southern wv boyz..to bad im in training until sat late morn..hopefully the eve will be productive..one cool thing happened to me for ..im at a hotel in Cross Lanes..the land surrounding looks like its awesome for some nice bucks..been lookin out my window with the binos all week..so this morn i get to my truck and look up and low and behold, not a giant but a almost solid white doe..a little brown on her face..nice llokin piebald....just got the oh fire crankin!!good luck


Man, I feel for you. That's funny, I always look for deer regardless of where I'm at ( ballgames, interstate, work, Dr's appointments... )..


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

hanglide4life said:


> Hey dean, what are your thoughts on the natural scents like cutting off the tarsals of early gotten buck and doe for use as it gets into november? I put them in a ziplock and froze them. How should I or not use them, add urine, drag or just hang along trail? Have you had any luck with that?




Sounds romantic as hell doesn't it? I tried it several times and nothing, sorry??? I had one small buck sniff one and move off with his tail tucked tight.

I did that drag rag several times and will admit I had one appear to follow it a ways ( small scrub buck ).


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

GrimReap'r said:


> Dean thanks for the clarification on buck movement as they age (it's like ohhh that makes sense now)
> 
> What percentage/fraction of the buck age groups do you think get killed during the Hunting season
> Around here the buck must have 4 points on one side which puts most of them at 2.5 years old and I would guess that 1/2 or more of those get killed
> ...


Im my home state it's like 90% of the kill is yearling ( 1.5 year old ). If yours has a 4 point minimum I'd guess that roughly 50% of your kill is 2.5 years old, 40- 45% would be 1.5 year olds and the remainder would be 3.5+.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

DeerSlayer2012 said:


> Dean,
> you seem like you know what the heack your talking about! i wish you could come to the woods i hunt to help me increase my chances of getting that big buck! im open to any adive that i get so do you think you could help me out a little bit? this is my first year bow hunting and im only 17 so im not as advanced as you are.


PM sent

I'm packing for Ohio--I'll catch up with you guys Sunday!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Well boys, all I got to say is you'd better get out there! The woods are starting to explode with deer activity!. The bucks are running around the perimeter of hill tops and rubbing the heck out of the ends of points and transition areas between two types of cover. Seen a GIANT!!!!!, not the highest scoring but 28" wide and massive. Looked like only an 8 pointer. I have pics on my phone of his rubs. He rubbed trees up to my neck!! I couldn't get an arrow through all those saplings!


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## Get Bucked (Jul 11, 2010)

First off thanks for posting all this info it has helped me very much just have a couple questions.when scouting an area and you find trails that just go everywhere how do you approach the area?If you spook deer when scouting will they come back to the area you seen them?


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## DeerSlayer2012 (Oct 26, 2010)

hey dean! i live in huntington indiana, when would you reccommend me start calling?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

DeerSlayer2012 said:


> hey dean! i live in huntington indiana, when would you reccommend me start calling?


I'd start calling now lightly and see what kind of response you get!


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## DeerSlayer2012 (Oct 26, 2010)

alright! when you say lightly what exactly do you mean?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

DeerSlayer2012 said:


> alright! when you say lightly what exactly do you mean?


Use your grunt tube roughly a couple soft grunts every 15 minutes or so. Rattle about every 30 minutes but don't bang the antlers real hard together. It is still a little early for that. If it doesn't work hold off. I'd try it when you've made good and sure there are no deer immediately around your stand. If you see a buck off in the distance and he is not coming your way try a more agressive grunt and observe his response. If he heads your way be quiet until it's obvious he is not coming to your shooting area then grunt some more.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Tools of the trade; rattling antlers, laser range finder, not pictured ( HS True Talker ). It is just about prime time to rattle. If I were to guess next week should be the peak time where I live. That's good, I'll be off for the next two weeks.


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## DeerSlayer2012 (Oct 26, 2010)

alright! thanks for all the advice! your like a hunting dictionary! sorry about all of the questions, i just hope to become as good of a hunter as you seem to be. if i have rubs on a tree should i move my stand right by those, or just in shooting range?


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

thanks Dean for all the advice... here's my first ever bow harvest


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Nice shot, nice deer and some fine eating there, congrats!!


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

thanks


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## newjigger (Jul 27, 2009)

Dean, I just wanted to say thank you for probably the most and by far the best hunting advice I've ever heard and/or read. What you've shared with us all is a brief glimpse into a lifetime of experiences, techniques, trials and errors...this is very good, helpful information, and I value what you've done here greatly. 

I'm very new to bowhunting, and don't get to deer hunt often enough, but this is fan-friggin-tastic material for me to read up on and study while I bide my time until my next hunt. Thank you again, for some awesome advice. Don't hesitate to dish out more...me, along with most others here are all ears. 

I'd buy your book too...with all the backing here I think you could wind up breaking even


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## ete203 (Nov 11, 2009)

I just took all of the big replies by Dean and put them onto a blog. It could be of some use in the future. It isn't edited for grammer and spelling much, it would take too much time.

The grand total number of pages in Word is
:drum:
:drum:
:drum:
:drum:
56 PAGES!!!

Here ya go. I wouldn't want to print this out. Hey you should write a book about whitetails, use this as your core and maybe expand more on some topics?

http://whitetaildeerguide.blogspot.com/2010/11/im-starting-this-thread-to-share-my.html


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Dean... Your thoughts on small woodlots and heavily pressured/baited whitetails on surrounding properties. I know what works for me, but some additional opinions would be great.


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## mata_777 (Oct 12, 2006)

Hello Dean,
I really enjoy reading all your posts and thank you for them. I been trying to bowhunt deer here in IL for several years on public land (about 6000 total acres) with no sucess. I have serious issues seeing any deer. My pre season scouting trips keep me motivated but then overnight after when the season starts the deer change patterns never to be seen again by me. This year has by far been the worse (14 trips so far), have not seen a single deer all season. I know this area is loaded with deer because of the harvest reports and the unlimited hunt passes given out each season. Over the years I have never seen a group of deer, only single deer here and there mostly on my way in/out to my set. Last year was the best I've had. I almost go a shot off on 2 does within a month period, both while hunting on the ground with a leafy suit (all this only 300 yards from the parking lot). People around here are very relunctant to share any tips or info out of fear that their tatics and honey holes will be discovered. I have seen very big bucks taken here every season, I go out just hoping that some day I will get a shot at a doe. I recently bought a climber to use in the woods and see if my luck changes at all (i'm trying to get rid of my fear of heights and can only go up 8ft or so), not very optmistic since the last deer I actally saw inside the woods was 3 years ago. I always keep as scent free as possible and stay quiet. This public area consists of hardwoods, small thickets, and crp fields (I feel that the crp fields are turned into bedding areas after the corn is harvested) with various creeks and streams that run throughout the area. As far as food sources, as of now Im not sure what they would be as the corn is out already and I have failed to locate any oaks throughout my years of scouting. This area seems to get the most pressure on weekends which I never hunt. I hope this season will not be like every other one where I end up with my 2 tags as a reminder of how unsucessful I was. Any type of ideas and pointers would be of great help. Thank you and I really appreciate you helping other hunters out.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'll get back with you guys tonight after work.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

njshadowwalker said:


> Dean... Your thoughts on small woodlots and heavily pressured/baited whitetails on surrounding properties. I know what works for me, but some additional opinions would be great.


I'd designate your property as a safe haven and hunt it sparringly ( low impact ) and only when the conditions are perfect.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

mata_777 said:


> Hello Dean,
> I really enjoy reading all your posts and thank you for them. I been trying to bowhunt deer here in IL for several years on public land (about 6000 total acres) with no sucess. I have serious issues seeing any deer. My pre season scouting trips keep me motivated but then overnight after when the season starts the deer change patterns never to be seen again by me. This year has by far been the worse (14 trips so far), have not seen a single deer all season. I know this area is loaded with deer because of the harvest reports and the unlimited hunt passes given out each season. Over the years I have never seen a group of deer, only single deer here and there mostly on my way in/out to my set. Last year was the best I've had. I almost go a shot off on 2 does within a month period, both while hunting on the ground with a leafy suit (all this only 300 yards from the parking lot). People around here are very relunctant to share any tips or info out of fear that their tatics and honey holes will be discovered. I have seen very big bucks taken here every season, I go out just hoping that some day I will get a shot at a doe. I recently bought a climber to use in the woods and see if my luck changes at all (i'm trying to get rid of my fear of heights and can only go up 8ft or so), not very optmistic since the last deer I actally saw inside the woods was 3 years ago. I always keep as scent free as possible and stay quiet. This public area consists of hardwoods, small thickets, and crp fields (I feel that the crp fields are turned into bedding areas after the corn is harvested) with various creeks and streams that run throughout the area. As far as food sources, as of now Im not sure what they would be as the corn is out already and I have failed to locate any oaks throughout my years of scouting. This area seems to get the most pressure on weekends which I never hunt. I hope this season will not be like every other one where I end up with my 2 tags as a reminder of how unsucessful I was. Any type of ideas and pointers would be of great help. Thank you and I really appreciate you helping other hunters out.


Wow, sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds like you really need a mentor to get you pointed in the correct direction. It sounds like you may need to study the material I've presented closely and try to apply it. I will point out that I have not covered the absolute basics of hunting because I just assumed most folks have a little experience. The first thing I learned to do was to learn how to spot whitetails. Start driving around the area just looking to spot whitetails. Look for horizontal lines in the woods or an ear,eye,movement... Make sure your vision is corrected and really focus on looking for deer anytime your in the woods. Don't perform any distracting activities such as texting or listening to music. Focus 100% of your energy into looking for deer and expect to see them. As experieced as I am if I'm just stumbling out of the woods I won't see any deer. Really study what I've said and you'll soon be able to predict when and where you'll even find them. This may take a while but hang in there. Walk with the wind in your face, make no noise and scan the brush in front of you as you walk. I focus as far away from my location that I can see and constantly rescan starting distant and working closer as you walk which is always slow and deliberate. My walking is very consistant. I scan the ground in front of me looking for noisy objects and try to avoid them. I scan the distant woodlots and progressively scan back toward my position. As new areas come into view I slow or stop and scan them slowly looking for deer. If I see something suspicious I pull out the binoculars and look closely. If you see fresh tracks slow down and really pay attention. Focus----focus---focus and remain positive. To overcome your fear of height, get in that stand and slowly work your way up a tree and set for a while until your comfortable. Recruit a hunting buddy and have him climb up a tree near yours and climb a few steps and spend a while just having regular conversation for distraction. Before you know it you'll be where you want to be. Always where a safety harness..


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## mata_777 (Oct 12, 2006)

Dean Bower said:


> Wow, sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds like you really need a mentor to get you pointed in the correct direction. It sounds like you may need to study the material I've presented closely and try to apply it. I will point out that I have not covered the absolute basics of hunting because I just assumed most folks have a little experience. The first thing I learned to do was to learn how to spot whitetails. Start driving around the area just looking to spot whitetails. Look for horizontal lines in the woods or an ear,eye,movement... Make sure your vision is corrected and really focus on looking for deer anytime your in the woods. Don't perform any distracting activities such as texting or listening to music. Focus 100% of your energy into looking for deer and expect to see them. As experieced as I am if I'm just stumbling out of the woods I won't see any deer. Really study what I've said and you'll soon be able to predict when and where you'll even find them. This may take a while but hang in there. Walk with the wind in your face, make no noise and scan the brush in front of you as you walk. I focus as far away from my location that I can see and constantly rescan starting distant and working closer as you walk which is always slow and deliberate. My walking is very consistant. I scan the ground in front of me looking for noisy objects and try to avoid them. I scan the distant woodlots and progressively scan back toward my position. As new areas come into view I slow or stop and scan them slowly looking for deer. If I see something suspicious I pull out the binoculars and look closely. If you see fresh tracks slow down and really pay attention. Focus----focus---focus and remain positive. To overcome your fear of height, get in that stand and slowly work your way up a tree and set for a while until your comfortable. Recruit a hunting buddy and have him climb up a tree near yours and climb a few steps and spend a while just having regular conversation for distraction. Before you know it you'll be where you want to be. Always where a safety harness..


Thanks for the advise Dean. I will keep hunting new tracks of the property every time I go out and watch the wind and my movement even more closely. Sign has been scarce this season due to how dry its been, will just focus on heavly used trails as its the only thing I have to go on as of now.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

mata_777 said:


> Thanks for the advise Dean. I will keep hunting new tracks of the property every time I go out and watch the wind and my movement even more closely. Sign has been scarce this season due to how dry its been, will just focus on heavly used trails as its the only thing I have to go on as of now.


You should be focusing on doe groups and travel corridors and funnels to maximize you chances. What does that mean for your average Illinois parcel?? Find a thin band of woods connecting two larger woodlots and set up a treestand in the thin band of woods so that your scent is not blowing toward the deer trails there; Be sure to send us pictures. That is as basic of advice as I can give. Do it now and you should score. try to get up at least 15" or tuck in behind a fallen tree with a good view to the trails.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

It getting close to time for me to go out in hot pursuit. The camper are packed the bow is tuned. The trail cameras are loaded with fresh batteries. I can't tell you exactly what is going on in the woods in your area, you'll have to figure that out for yourself. If the scrapes are still active hunt down wind of them. If they have leafed over really focus on travel corridors and downwind of doe group bedding areas. Don't be afraid to rattle, I can promise you it does work just not everytime. My last bit of advice is to use a laser range finder and aim at the lower part of a deers vitals ( low in the kill zone ). If anyone has anything for me send it tonight because I will be gone come tomorrow evening. I will respond or look at what you have if it is posted by this evening. I sincerely wish you all the best of luck and may you have a fun, memorable season. May you have a picture or story to share at the seasons end. That's what it's all about, "building memories".

Sincerely,

Dean


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## RodsNBows (May 26, 2009)

Good Luck to You Dean.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Fantastic stuff.


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## Whitetail4ever (Dec 4, 2008)

Dean, are the big boys still feeding on acorns??


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## mata_777 (Oct 12, 2006)

Dean Bower said:


> You should be focusing on doe groups and travel corridors and funnels to maximize you chances. What does that mean for your average Illinois parcel?? Find a thin band of woods connecting two larger woodlots and set up a treestand in the thin band of woods so that your scent is not blowing toward the deer trails there; Be sure to send us pictures. That is as basic of advice as I can give. Do it now and you should score. try to get up at least 15" or tuck in behind a fallen tree with a good view to the trails.


 Thank you sir. Today I caught a break.
Here is a new area I hunted/scouted today. I was set up where the red dot is on the ground. I belive this area does not get much presure
on the weekdays. The brown dots were 2 does at about 100 yards from me. I was at the time obeserving another pair of does 
and 1 buck that were where the yellow spots are at with my binos about 500 yards away. I have no idea what made the does close to me 
come over my way (no food/water source in the small wood lot), but I did get busted when I turned to my right and they saw my movement (I
never saw them comming). The black line is a 6 foot fence. The blue arrow was my apporch to the area. The white dots are areas I plan to set my treestand, if there area any usable trees. Another plan I have is to use a ground blind were I was at and brush it in as there are no usable trees by the possible ambush area
Any observations you can make would be of great help. Thanks.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Whitetail4ever said:


> Dean, are the big boys still feeding on acorns??


In my area they just switched over to red and black oaks, good luck!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

mata_777 said:


> Thank you sir. Today I caught a break.
> Here is a new area I hunted/scouted today. I was set up where the red dot is on the ground. I belive this area does not get much presure
> on the weekdays. The brown dots were 2 does at about 100 yards from me. I was at the time obeserving another pair of does
> and 1 buck that were where the yellow spots are at with my binos about 500 yards away. I have no idea what made the does close to me
> ...


 Let me look at this evening after I'm awake, I just got up for my last day of work.


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

mata_777 said:


> Thank you sir. Today I caught a break.
> Here is a new area I hunted/scouted today. I was set up where the red dot is on the ground. I belive this area does not get much presure
> on the weekdays. The brown dots were 2 does at about 100 yards from me. I was at the time obeserving another pair of does
> and 1 buck that were where the yellow spots are at with my binos about 500 yards away. I have no idea what made the does close to me
> ...



but what way does the wind typically blow?


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## Sluggersetta901 (Dec 12, 2009)

good luck Dean... i'm off to Ohio. be safe and thanks for the advice.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

mata_777 said:


> Thank you sir. Today I caught a break.
> Here is a new area I hunted/scouted today. I was set up where the red dot is on the ground. I belive this area does not get much presure
> on the weekdays. The brown dots were 2 does at about 100 yards from me. I was at the time obeserving another pair of does
> and 1 buck that were where the yellow spots are at with my binos about 500 yards away. I have no idea what made the does close to me
> ...


Last post before I leave. Hell yes I've got an idea, Get down there in that thin band of brush the buck and does were in probably close to where the white line enters the woods or where the woods are at thier narrowist. Get your stand on the downwind side of the trails through there. You didn't say which way the wind was blowing but you can figure it out. 




GOOD LUCK GUYS, OLD DAD IS OFF TO LAY ONE'S ARSE OUT!!!!! I lost all of last year, that won't happen again.


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## mata_777 (Oct 12, 2006)

Thank you Dean, if I finally get one this season I will post pics on here before anywhere else on the forum. Winds blow south west. Good luck to you this season and everyone else on here who follows your posts.


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## ete203 (Nov 11, 2009)

Can I get your opinion on the conservation area that I hunt here in St. Louis?

I have been out here all season long and only personally seen 4 deer, all of which could not be shot at. Here is the run down of what I have seen with their number and direction headed. Numbers 3-5 were all seen today. This is a very heavily hunted area during the week ends, and I can't get in during the week but my friend told me its not too bad. There is an average of 7 cars in the lot in the morning or at night on weekends and 2-3 cars during the week. Last weekend someone told me that their friend took an 8 point and he took a button. I haven't seen any rubs or scrapes though. There are tracks EVERYWHERE in the fields, some really really nice size ones too.

#1 (7-8 point buck) was spooked by someone in the woods and took off full speed across the field to the edge and maybe beyond the property line, couldn't find him afterwards or what trail he took.
#2 was a doe that my friend saw just after shooting hour that he startled.
#3 was something that I only saw the back half of, it jogged away and couldn't get it to come back, or sneak up to it.
#4 startled on the way out after shooting hours, only saw white tail shoot up, then it took off
#5 startled on the way out, less then 5 minutes after #4, only saw white tail shoot up then it took off
#6 was a 8 point buck that someone saw today too, he told me about him when we were loading up cars. don't know exactly where he saw him, but just the general area

I will probably be hunting from the ground with a DIY GhostBlind and stalking. I have a climber treestand but not a harness and don't have money for one right now. And heights scare me a little bit, so I might not use it.
What about the area to the right of the pink line? I have never been there, and i figure most people won't want to go in that far (1.5-2 miles one way in about) Its like an island with swampy woods, the only way to get there is from the top by the boundary, or a little to the top of the pink line.

Any help, especially now that the rut should be starting? And what would be better to call in a deer? mature buck grunts, or doe estrus bleats? This is my 2nd year hunting and I haven't ever got something. So any deer would be fine, but I want a buck! lol who doesn't?

Here is the conservation map. http://extra.mdc.mo.gov/documents/area_brochures/7809map.pdf


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## cahelle1 (Nov 24, 2008)

Dean could you go over how you capitalize on the kill, I had two shooters in 20 yards and couldn’t connect. The one spotted me drawing and I never came to full draw. There were a few branches in the way and I thought I had cover but guess not. I realize the mistakes I make this weekend but don’t want it to happen again. I hunt from a tree stand

Is it better to draw while they are walking, looking the other way, or feeding. I guess each situation is different but any tips id appreciate.


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## swampstink (Oct 25, 2010)

you draw AS SOON AS YOU CAN!! never wait until the deer is there.... you see deer you MAY want to shoot, draw and weight. Ive helf back for 6-8 minutes and belive me that feels like 2 hoiurs
!


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## grizzl (Jan 5, 2007)

Good luck Dean!

I just put #4 in the books! 1 of 15 deer posted to date on the "Braggin Board". He'll rank as my #3 deer...got more character with the wrap..I like the looks of this guy allot!

I have 2-3 more days to tag a larger buck. Unfortunately...the areas closed Monday/Tues. If they don't reopen Wed..I'm headin SOUTH for some Trophy BASS Fishing...take a rest..3 weeks of this has wore me down.


Again, PASS on the young bucks...and WAIT for the shooter. IF YOU WANT to TAG A 125+ buck


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Just back from Ohio. The rut there is slowing down. It appears last weak was the peak. Passed on a ton of 130-140 stuff and saw only one deer over 150 at 10pm standing beside the road--bummer. They have taken over 260 deer out of the area I've hunted. I saw several that have been checked in that were close to 200" and a few way over including several 20 pointers and one had a 26" inside spread. I'm just repacking for a another trip---Good luck to all. I'll get caught up after next week.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Hunting around redoaks/greenfields should be productive from here on out. The secondary rut in Central USA should start kicking in now and bucks will start cruising again. Remember to hunt food sources and/or doe groups. Good luck in the late season. this about wraps up this thread from my standpoint. It will be back to work for another year. I passed on a ton of sub 150" this year with my bow and decided to gun hunt for a change. It was fun using the 375 H&H Magnum to bring this good local buck down for good. Note, don't shoot them in the head if you need the cape.

I hope I helped some and again good luck,

Dean


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

That's a fine buck. Glad you got to see lots of big ones. Thanks for all the info you shared this season.


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## JustinM (Aug 23, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> Hunting around redoaks/greenfields should be productive from here on out. The secondary rut in Central USA should start kicking in now and bucks will start cruising again. Remember to hunt food sources and/or doe groups. Good luck in the late season. this about wraps up this thread from my standpoint. It will be back to work for another year. I passed on a ton of sub 150" this year with my bow and decided to gun hunt for a change. It was fun using the 375 H&H Magnum to bring this good local buck down for good. Note, don't shoot them in the head if you need the cape.
> 
> I hope I helped some and again good luck,
> 
> Dean


Just a question and you do not have to answer if you don't want to but if passing 140" inch deer with your bow then taking one of the size you did with a rifle makes no sense to me. Your deer and you have to answer to no one but I am just curious.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

JustinM said:


> Just a question and you do not have to answer if you don't want to but if passing 140" inch deer with your bow then taking one of the size you did with a rifle makes no sense to me. Your deer and you have to answer to no one but I am just curious.


Dean may be full of BS.....


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

I think he passed up big bucks in Ohio and took this one back home. Look at the body on that buck, it's a huge old buck with a 20 something spread. The hindquater/hooves are enormous. Sounds like he wanted a big buck for the cape.


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## hanglide4life (Dec 29, 2009)

great buck!!, congrats.

and you saw all these sub 150's just still hunting stalking around the woods. wow.
Were most on the move, or did you catch them feeding or bedded??
I've got all your posts to keep re-reading and sucking some knowledge, but still, your ability to see and get so many bow deer by scout/stalking is amazing. ninja in the woods!! Thanks again for the greatest thread ever.!!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

JustinM said:


> Just a question and you do not have to answer if you don't want to but if passing 140" inch deer with your bow then taking one of the size you did with a rifle makes no sense to me. Your deer and you have to answer to no one but I am just curious.


I make no apology, a 140 in Ohio or Southern WVa is not a top end buck or the top 5%. I always try to take the best buck that my hunting area has to offer, that is the best one could expect. I hunted with my brother for the first time in years with a rifle and around my home and this was an exceptional animal. Yes, I have been looking for a nice cape and this one was it, but that's not why I shot the buck. I shot it because it felt good to lay some whoop ass on something after holding back. I shot it because I was enjoying my relaxed time with a rifle with my brother.This is only the second deer I've taken in two years. Could have I taken more?, chances are good:wink: I guess I still enjoy rifle hunting besides the meat was perfect. Why did I shoot him in the head?? I don't know, it was a reflex. I pulled the gun up and crosshairs on the butt and straight to the top of his back facing away. When I saw his head come up with that nice spread the gun went boom and the buck hit the dirt and old Dean-o was happy. I can still pictures the crosshairs locked onto the base of his right ear. 

Marty ( Zap ), how has your luck been this year?

I wish you success,

Your old buddy Dean.


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## carramrod6 (Aug 8, 2009)

Maybe the next lesson will be on shot selection then.


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## caribsteve (Feb 19, 2010)

Why the hostilty towards dean? I'm curious!?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Please don't ruin my thread guys, I've put alot of work into just to help others. If you don't want to hear what I have to say please move on and have a great life.


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## JustinM (Aug 23, 2007)

Dean, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you or why one takes an animal I was just curious. I havn't had the chance to read all you have posted but I did enjoy reading what I was able to. Sorry, that you think I was trying to ruin your thread. Hope you have a eventful late season! Justin


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

Dean Bower said:


> I make no apology, a 140 in Ohio or Southern WVa is not a top end buck or the top 5%. I always try to take the best buck that my hunting area has to offer, that is the best one could expect. I hunted with my brother for the first time in years with a rifle and around my home and this was an exceptional animal. Yes, I have been looking for a nice cape and this one was it, but that's not why I shot the buck. I shot it because it felt good to lay some whoop ass on something after holding back. I shot it because I was enjoying my relaxed time with a rifle with my brother.This is only the second deer I've taken in two years. Could have I taken more?, chances are good:wink: I guess I still enjoy rifle hunting besides the meat was perfect. Why did I shoot him in the head?? I don't know, it was a reflex. I pulled the gun up and crosshairs on the butt and straight to the top of his back facing away. When I saw his head come up with that nice spread the gun went boom and the buck hit the dirt and old Dean-o was happy. I can still pictures the crosshairs locked onto the base of his right ear.
> 
> Marty ( Zap ), how has your luck been this year?
> 
> ...


You may think your my buddy, but I think otherwise....


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## hanglide4life (Dec 29, 2009)

Oh hey also dean,

Just wondering about all those big bucks you saw, did you happen too rattle any into close or calls? or just doing your stalking? and were they mostly seen in the open hardwoods giving you a shot or did you see them in the thick brushy stuff with tougher shots? 
Were most on the move pushing does or did ya catch them milling or bedded?
Curious about how many different areas you went to as far as seeing activity or not, then driving to another location 0r did you have a big one or two thousand acre tract to hike for days?
Did you do any traditional sets this time?


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## kwaldeier (Jan 3, 2010)

hey dean, just curious on your thoughts about late season??


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

kwaldeier said:


> hey dean, just curious on your thoughts about late season??


hunt the food guys!


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## Whitetail4ever (Dec 4, 2008)

Dean, do you think that a cornfield that was cut in early November or alfalfa would be a better choice? There are both in the area I hunt, but each food source has its own area.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Whitetail4ever said:


> Dean, do you think that a cornfield that was cut in early November or alfalfa would be a better choice? There are both in the area I hunt, but each food source has its own area.


Which ever one has the most fresh tracks. Just got a shot at a coyote tearing across a grown up meadow. I didn't touch him but it scared the crap out of him, that was fun!


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## Xmaster (Jan 9, 2005)

Dean

where i hunt the hill side has elevations from around 100 ft to 350 ft. would a saddle that was 50 feet lower qualify or should i look for more elevation change than 50 feet. we are still not in the rut yet and i am pour over topo that came with my new gps to see if i can figure the hill deer out. and one more thing. the overcups and nuttalls are about played out. there is a bumper crop of water oaks. you think they will be on them hot and heavy soon?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Just wanting to drop in and say I've more or less accomplished what I wanted to do when I joined this site. If any of you need to contact me I'd gladly help you out. I can be reached through e mails. It's been nice to talking with most of you.

I hope my little thread helped some shorten the learning curve. 

Good luck to you all,

Dean


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## powdermnky007 (Feb 7, 2011)

Best thread ever, thank you Dean. I learned everything I know about hunting from this thread. Way better than tv shows. Why isn't this a sticky?


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## catfishmafia76 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thought I'd bump this up top for all the new guys to see. Dean, I'm still praying for your family after what you guys have been through. I hope life gets a little easier to take day by day.


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## Timber Hawk (Aug 31, 2007)

Great info here!


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## jac10laux (Jan 26, 2009)

ttt


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## robllachance (Sep 16, 2011)

boom


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

catfishmafia76 said:


> Thought I'd bump this up top for all the new guys to see. Dean, I'm still praying for your family after what you guys have been through. I hope life gets a little easier to take day by day.


Thanks brother, I still haven't found any interest in going out but I have a while to get motivated. We are still spending a good bit of time at Jacob's grave and to be honest I don't want to be away from it just yet. losing my son has left me with a huge whole in my heart that I can't see getting over. I'm looking to give all of my collection away if I could find someone that wouldn't cut the larger ones up into knives.


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## BLan (Aug 16, 2010)

Dean Bower said:


> Thanks brother, I still haven't found any interest in going out but I have a while to get motivated. We are still spending a good bit of time at Jacob's grave and to be honest I don't want to be away from it just yet. losing my son has left me with a huge whole in my heart that I can't see getting over. I'm looking to give all of my collection away if I could find someone that wouldn't cut the larger ones up into knives.


I can't imagine what you and your family are going through, however, knowing what you've said about Jacob I don't think that he'd want you getting rid of your collection or ceasing to do the things that brought you joy in the past. You have a tremendous amount of knowledge and wisdom to give to other, like you did to Jacob, and to cease doing that would be adding tragedy upon tragedy. Nevertheless, you have to follow your heart, but nothing will ever fill the hole in your heart left by his passing, but it can be repaired some. I honestly believe that Jacob, and God, would want you to continue to share your wisdom and challenge others to find their mission in life, much like you did for Jacob. 

I'm praying for you in this time. I know that seems trite and I'm sure you're close, if not to the point where you are growing tired of hearing people say that. I've been there myself with the passing of my mother who was one of my greatest friends, I was to the point where I said, "if one more person trys to tell me that she's in a better place and with God" that I was going to knock them out. I didn't want her to be with God yet, I needed her in my life. Grieve for your loss, you deserve it, but don't do something that you'll later regret, and something that Jacob wouldn't want for you. I know people will think me weird, I'm okay with that, but I love and care about you and your family and interestingly enough, I hold you in great respect having never physically met you. Grace and Peace to you brother.


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## saskguy (Aug 25, 2007)

> I can't imagine what you and your family are going through, however, knowing what you've said about Jacob I don't think that he'd want you getting rid of your collection or ceasing to do the things that brought you joy in the past. You have a tremendous amount of knowledge and wisdom to give to other, like you did to Jacob, and to cease doing that would be adding tragedy upon tragedy.


I agree, best wishes Dean.


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## MarshBuck89 (Jul 5, 2011)

Awesome thread..mad i just found it. Also, my thoughts and prayers go out to your and your family Dean.


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## AlphaSix (Sep 9, 2011)

Following...Thanks.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Dean...I wont try to say I understand what you're going thru because I cant begin to imagine. Words can't describe it so I wont try. I will say this though....if your son and you shared moments in the outdoors together then dont part with those items that will bring you back to those moments. At the moment they probably seem to add to the pain but in the future they will be moments you can look back on and be thankful for those few minutes in time that you shared. You're info and stories have brought myself and many others tons of enjoyment and it would be a shame for us to lose those enjoyable times going forward. When I climb in my stand Saturday morning for the opening day of WV season I will say a little prayer for you and Jacob and just maybe you'll be in a tree somewhere in the hills and the wind will bring it your direction.


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## DUCKORBLEED (Dec 17, 2008)

Ttt


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## PAHunter2D (Sep 14, 2011)

Subscribe!


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## tbassfd (Jul 26, 2008)

ttt


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## SwampDog32 (Jan 3, 2008)

Just Subscribed!


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## Archer917 (Dec 28, 2008)

A+ Dean, 2 thumbs up buddy.


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## huntnmuleys (Jan 7, 2004)

hey Dean, i cannot imagine what your going through, but a good friend of mine lost a daughter last winter, and getting out in the woods has helped him im pretty sure. seems like it, i think theres a certain therapy out there. wish there was something i could do to help ya all the way from Wyoming!!


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## jigga (Nov 20, 2009)

great info thanks dean


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## gtsum2 (Dec 31, 2008)

thank you for taking the time to share the knowledge.


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## KYFOBSHOOTER (Aug 25, 2011)

God bless you.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I decided to bump to the top since a member was asking for advice hunting Ohio. I did get out a few times last year and took a good 166 12 point but i still didn't enjoy it. I'm hoping things get better this year?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Here is the rack from one of the buck I got last year. I'm waiting on the taxidermist to call so I can deliver the rack for mounting. I'm going to have him do a right turn full sneak to utilize open wall space. I also want to keep the antlers down low so one can appreciate the 6+" mass.


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

I bet getting out there helped more than you think. Congrats on the buck, that's a unique one.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Dean, thanks for this thread. I killed my largest rack deer this year and I know that this thread played a part in my success. My deers rack looks almost identical to yours above except my deer had 2 less points. When I saw the split brow tines on my deer I was so excited and happy. I think that my deer will score around 140. Where I hunt a 140 deer is fairly rare. It has only taken my 48 years of hunting to get one this size. So thanks again for this thread.

I saw that you were going to be getting rid of some things. My advise is for you to do nothing that you don't have to do for at least a year. When someone close to us passes, we are so upset that we can make decisions which we would not normally make. If you will just hold off on getting rid of things for a while then you may change your mind and be happy that you kept your treasured items.

May God bless you and your family.


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## catfishmafia76 (Aug 23, 2009)

What a buck Dean! Congrats buddy. After 2 open heart surgeries in dec 2010 and feb 2011 at 34yrs old and missing all that season I was just happy to still be able to climb a tree and hunt this year. I saw a few decent bucks but had nothing in range, yet it was my best season ever because I'm still here and I enjoy every bit of it now. Dean I'd be happy just to see the bucks in the stand that you drag home with you. I'll keep reading and trying to learn from you and maybe I can make it happen.


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## WhiteTailFevah (Nov 6, 2011)

subscribed


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

Nice buck there Dean. Good to see you on AT. This thread is one of the best ever for teaching about deer hunting.


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## truckd11 (Oct 3, 2010)

subscribed


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## GILL (Jan 10, 2008)

subscribed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## S.F. steve (Mar 1, 2010)

thanks for the thread Mr. Bower, it's the best one i've ever seen. ttt


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## RDJA (Apr 24, 2008)

Dean,
I am late to catch up with this thread and am very sorry to hear of your son. I have not been through anything like this but had a very good friend that lost his son a few years ago. He and his son were best friends and hunting buddies (waterfowl). After his son died he could not move on and ended up succumbing to his chronic medical diseases just 2 years later. I think he just gave up. My only advice is to focus as hard as you can on the relationships that are still in your life. They need you too and you need them. God speed, and thank you for your generosity of your knowledge.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

RDJA said:


> Dean,
> I am late to catch up with this thread and am very sorry to hear of your son. I have not been through anything like this but had a very good friend that lost his son a few years ago. He and his son were best friends and hunting buddies (waterfowl). After his son died he could not move on and ended up succumbing to his chronic medical diseases just 2 years later. I think he just gave up. My only advice is to focus as hard as you can on the relationships that are still in your life. They need you too and you need them. God speed, and thank you for your generosity of your knowledge.


Thank you Sir, that is exactly what I'm trying to do.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

You lose a child and everything seems pretty insignificant


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I never thought about it but let me clarify he is just asleep on the couch at Duck NC beach house right before heading off to West Point Military Academy where he died from heat stroke and low sodium secondary to probable water intoxication. God truly blessed me more than I deserved with two beautiful son's and a great wife. I guess he decided to call him home early for good behavior. It's just so hard recovering from, he never did anything wrong and was beyond perfect in every way. A son any father would have been proud to have been blessed with.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Looks like he was a fine young man.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

That really sucks Dean. I can't imagine anything worse, I don't think there is.


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

I feel for you Dean being a father myself this is a terrible tragedy that I couln't imagine happening, and I think of you often. I still remember watching the news highlight clip you emailed me of him making a big touchdown in the Fairmont football game a few years back. 

Give me a shout sometime we can talk hunting or anything
304-677-5401
Chad


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## str_8_shot (Aug 17, 2007)

tragedy, gone to soon in his young life....prayers sent.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

To the top for the new AT members, may you find success!


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## Sivart (Mar 12, 2004)

Prayers sent....


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## bogie12 (Nov 27, 2010)

this is an amazing thread! thank you for putting this information together and sharing it with us!


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## hedp (Dec 20, 2011)

Dean Bower said:


> I never thought about it but let me clarify he is just asleep on the couch at Duck NC beach house right before heading off to West Point Military Academy where he died from heat stroke and low sodium secondary to probable water intoxication. God truly blessed me more than I deserved with two beautiful son's and a great wife. I guess he decided to call him home early for good behavior. It's just so hard recovering from, he never did anything wrong and was beyond perfect in every way. A son any father would have been proud to have been blessed with.




Sorry to hear about your son. Thanks for passing on your knowledge.
.


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## Bailiekid (Nov 10, 2011)

subscribed


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## catfishmafia76 (Aug 23, 2009)

Great idea bumping this thread back up to the top Dean, tons of great info and thanks for sharing what you know with anyone willing to listen. Hope life is getting a little easier for you and the family day by day, I want you to know I am praying for you all. Larry


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

Here is a summary of Deans Post on this thread

https://acrobat.com/app.html#d=EN9c8GWXqK*LkAIzv73BFA


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## bull moose (Dec 22, 2010)

Tagged


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## mdnabors (Sep 20, 2009)

Bump up again...


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## Oberhaz (Aug 23, 2012)

This is something very special. Thank you for sharing.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Ttt for the new guys, hunt the white oaks this week.


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## jbsoonerfan (Aug 15, 2008)

I have said this before and I will say it again. More times than not a child is a reflection of the person(s) who raised them. Judging by the character of your Son, Dean; you sir are a great father.


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## teamorion22 (Sep 27, 2010)

subscribed


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## Buck Schott (Sep 10, 2012)

Funny about the "deliverance" hunter. Did the same thing in N Mo. two years ago. Dude snuck in while I was 20 feet up and looked hard for those battling bucks for about twenty minutes then snuck away. Never knew I was there. I had to stuf a glove in my mouth to keep from laughing out loud. Next morning this guy comes back with two buddies to show them where the epic battle took place. They finally spotted me when they were about 20 yards away. Scared the crap out of them. I never told them their buddy came into my call.


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## WVXFORCE (Jul 17, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> Ttt for the new guys, hunt the white oaks this week.


Wish I could, however they cover our whole lease!


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## catfishmafia76 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bought that time of year to bump this up! Hope the world is treating you alright Dean.


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## hedp (Dec 20, 2011)

Rfl


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## mechanicworkman (Sep 27, 2011)

Bump


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## mechanicworkman (Sep 27, 2011)

I think this my be my favorite thread on AT. Alot of great information! Thanks Dean


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## nelliott (Feb 22, 2008)

Subscribed 

sent via smoke signal


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## drgracer392 (Jul 30, 2007)

Subscribed


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## splinter84 (Nov 1, 2011)

Dean Bower said:


> I'm starting this thread to share my lifes learnings in hopes that what I share may make you more effective and successful as whitetail deer hunters. This is going to be a long running thread where I'm going to cover topics about everything I have learned from almost 40 years of obsessive whitetail deer hunting. I'm not going to read anyones response to any of the post until I'm completely through with the thread, It could take months to write. I will write about things you've read about and many you have not. Hopefully, I will have something to share with everyone of you that will make you more successful as whitetail deer hunters. As my hunting carreer is winding down I wanted to make sure what I learned was passed along. A basic outline of what I want to cover is outlined below. Keep in mind that I tend to get off course at times so bare with me. I'm not a professional writer, so please forgive me on my grammar. Hunting whitetail deer to me is like playing the ultimate game of chess to maximize your chances of success. I want to cover many of these topics of interest in no particular order.
> 
> *Stages of the rut and hunting each
> *Strategic stand placement
> ...


Subscribed


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## eblues (Nov 26, 2008)

Good to bump this one up again. The man knows what he's talking about.


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## Easlo (Apr 30, 2011)

Interesting write up. I learned a simple phrase once, and once you repeat it over and over to yourself you will start to understand certain things about deer. BUT always remember this..."You can't kill a big buck where there is not a big buck".  Yeah sounds simple enough but its so true.


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## mechanicworkman (Sep 27, 2011)

A lot of advice in here I think I learn something new every time I read it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

To the top at the request of a fellow member. I haven't been on here much lately and just thought I'd drop in and say hello. I hope all is going well in your lives and you get some quality time relaxing and enjoying the outdoors.


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## grousin' (Oct 15, 2010)

Good to hear from you Dean. Thanks for all the advice.


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## DV1 (Dec 12, 2004)

Great topic.


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## strikerII (Feb 1, 2004)

Good to hear from you Dean, always liked your advice/posts. Hope all is going well for you.


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## wvbowhunter. (Jan 20, 2013)

best thread ever, so glad to of seen it!!!


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## bishjr (Aug 1, 2008)

Dean Bower said:


> My favorite time to be in the deer woods is generally the week before to the week after the scrapes have leafed over. This is the transition of the prerut to the rut. This fortunately coincides with the timing most of us take our vacations to bowhunt. The week before the scrapes leaf over you've got a pretty good chance of rattling in a mature buck if you play your cards right. You'll know the time to rattle is right when your seeing bucks cruising everywhere and harassing doe to no end.Take note harassing doe and breeding/tending are two completely different things. A buck that corners off a doe and runs her around an area for a while and scent checks and moves off is not tending the doe his is just scent checking her to see if she is receptive to his advances. This is an excellant time to rattle in a mature whitetail. They have not locked themselves down on a doe yet.
> 
> I hunt in the mountainous terrain of Southern W.Va. The buck doe ratio is almost 1:1 in my area. That makes calling in mature/older deer so much easier. I'm going to recommend something that is going to pull many out of their comfort zone. I'm going to recommend rattling in buck from the ground using the team work of a few hunting buddies or solo with the increased risk of you not seeing the buck that was called in.
> 
> ...


I plan on doing this in late oct. Never called in a deer before but want to.


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## wvbowhunter. (Jan 20, 2013)

this needs to be permanent sticky... or have the whole write up somewhere. easily available for everyone. 

Absolutely great read, only took me a few hours hahahaha.


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## Zuludog (Jun 7, 2012)

Tagged for later.


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## Cannonball08 (Sep 11, 2006)

Btt


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## sureshot516 (Sep 15, 2011)

subscribed


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## Rooster7 (Mar 27, 2007)

subscribed as well


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## MattR_WI (Sep 27, 2012)

Subscribing also.


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## solobowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

Marked for later


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## ridgerunner1 (Dec 13, 2012)

marked


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## Ouachitamtnman (Sep 4, 2007)

Dean...I've been in on this since the beginning...I don't think it coincidence that after reading all your information, I killed the 2 biggest bucks of my life

2010







2011








Should've had my biggest last year but a bad shot cost me and we never found the buck...



nonetheless, your tips and the knowledge I derived from them have made me a better hunter and allowed me those mystical experiences with these few and hopefully many more monarchs...God bless you and your family buddy...Kill a big one this year.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

*I just happened to be browsing around online and dropped in saw my old thread pulled to the top. I'm really glad some of you have been using the information I put out there. My whole intent was to help others achieve their goals. I've got more information to add and if I get some time in the near future I'll add it when I can. This i phone is not good for typing large documents.*


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## BOWCHIEF (Oct 6, 2006)

Dean Bower said:


> *I just happened to be browsing around online and dropped in saw my old thread pulled to the top. I'm really glad some of you have been using the information I put out there. My whole intent was to help others achieve their goals. I've got more information to add and if I get some time in the near future I'll add it when I can. This i phone is not good for typing large documents.*


Looking forward to it Dean. Been following your thread and it's packed full of useful and inspirational info. Thanks for all you do.


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## Big AL 101 (Dec 12, 2012)

I will take what ever advice I can get, that will increases my chances.!! :shade: Ty


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I would not be the least bit surprised if the buck you hit and lost survived the injury. Now is the time to scope out your local deer herd. The buck will remain in large bachelor groups until roughly the second week of September when they will disappear. Get your binoculars and start glassing from afar and make note of individual buck you're interested in. Also, while you're out take note of the food source availability for this year. No sense not maximizing your time just looking for deer. I think the final piece I want to pull together that I haven't done yet is a simple chart that would allow one to pick the appropriate stage of the rut and apply the most strategic strategy to maximize your chances. On a personal note, I have hunts scheduled for Ohio and Illinois this year. I'm expanding my horizons this year by adding some food plots around my home to see how deer respond to them.


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## rocks281 (Sep 3, 2012)

Thanks Dean for a great thread. Looking forward to more.


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## TrykonSniper79 (Dec 19, 2009)

I have been subscribed to this thread for 2 years, I took all of his advice and tips throughout all 20 pages of this thread and turned it into a word document. If anyone would like a copy, send me a PM.


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## Whitetailhntr (May 1, 2013)

Hunt as much as possible..


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## STILLxSTALKINGx (May 23, 2012)

:darkbeer: awesome info...thank you to say the least!! took a few days for all this to sink in...It made me do a google search to decipher what the difference between acorn producing oak tree's...aka white oaks and red oaks...explains why I have so much luck in one spot,,,its surrounded by oak trees!! don't know how I hunted my whole life without knowing that.... thank you Dean!!!


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

Whitetailhntr said:


> Hunt as much as possible..


Hunt best spots as little as possible until the timing and weather is perfect.


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## Ouachitamtnman (Sep 4, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> I would not be the least bit surprised if the buck you hit and lost survived the injury. Now is the time to scope out your local deer herd. The buck will remain in large bachelor groups until roughly the second week of September when they will disappear. Get your binoculars and start glassing from afar and make note of individual buck you're interested in. Also, while you're out take note of the food source availability for this year. No sense not maximizing your time just looking for deer. I think the final piece I want to pull together that I haven't done yet is a simple chart that would allow one to pick the appropriate stage of the rut and apply the most strategic strategy to maximize your chances. On a personal note, I have hunts scheduled for Ohio and Illinois this year. I'm expanding my horizons this year by adding some food plots around my home to see how deer respond to them.


I hope you're right Dean. We put an accomplished blood dog on it for 5 hours and scoured every nook and cranny and came up empty handed...I hope the old joker shows up for round 2 and hopefully this time my aim will be true


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## manhanriverbuck (Aug 5, 2012)

TrykonSniper79 said:


> I have been subscribed to this thread for 2 years, I took all of his advice and tips throughout all 20 pages of this thread and turned it into a word document. If anyone would like a copy, send me a PM.


I sent you a pm with my email address!! Thanks in advance!!


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## Xmaster (Jan 9, 2005)

AHH Dean, I have not visited AT in quite some time, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your son. I have 3 and can't even imagine the loss you must feel. I hope that time and the pleasant memories of your son heal your heart.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

It's September 21st, the deer are currently in the pre rut stage. Most of you have probably noticed the buck have pulled the disappearing act. Appropriate hunting strategies for this time of the year in most areas would be hunting upwind from whiteoaks dropping nuts. There is much flooding in many areas but some areas remain dry. Hunt water holes with big tracks in the evenings. Deer may show themselves both late and early in green fields and food plots before the temperature gets to hot. I have noticed deer feeding heavily on soft mast in my areas. I've seen them using apples, gardens, plums. It won't be to long before they start using persimmon, and paw paws. Adjust your hunting strategies appropriately for best results.


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## solobowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

Dean Bower said:


> It's September 21st, the deer are currently in the pre rut stage. Most of you have probably noticed the buck have pulled the disappearing act. Appropriate hunting strategies for this time of the year in most areas would be hunting upwind from whiteoaks dropping nuts. There is much flooding in many areas but some areas remain dry. Hunt water holes with big tracks in the evenings. Deer may show themselves both late and early in green fields and food plots before the temperature gets to hot. I have noticed deer feeding heavily on soft mast in my areas. I've seen them using apples, gardens, plums. It won't be to long before they start using persimmon, and paw paws. Adjust your hunting strategies appropriately for best results.


Thanks dean. Winds favoring my favorite white oak batch this morning here in central mo. You know where I'll be


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

solobowhunter said:


> Thanks dean. Winds favoring my favorite white oak batch this morning here in central mo. You know where I'll be


Good luck, I'm spending my day working out the bugs in my new Monster Safari. Our season opens next weekend.


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## Deerslayer 28 (Dec 16, 2008)

Dean you ever try rattling in early October? I thought about doing some light tickleing opening day.


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## Slippyshaft (Dec 20, 2008)

Subscribed


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## hookinbull (Oct 20, 2009)

Subscribing


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## TrykonSniper79 (Dec 19, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> It's September 21st, the deer are currently in the pre rut stage. Most of you have probably noticed the buck have pulled the disappearing act. Appropriate hunting strategies for this time of the year in most areas would be hunting upwind from whiteoaks dropping nuts. There is much flooding in many areas but some areas remain dry. Hunt water holes with big tracks in the evenings. Deer may show themselves both late and early in green fields and food plots before the temperature gets to hot. I have noticed deer feeding heavily on soft mast in my areas. I've seen them using apples, gardens, plums. It won't be to long before they start using persimmon, and paw paws. Adjust your hunting strategies appropriately for best results.


Thanks for all of your advice and tips, I hope you have a successful season.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Deerslayer 28 said:


> Dean you ever try rattling in early October? I thought about doing some light tickleing opening day.


I have tried early season rattling with very limited success. The only time I would rattle early in the season is when I had visual contact with a buck I deemed as a shooter and the buck was obviously not coming my direction. I might tickle the antlers just to observe his response. One might also consider doing the same thing with a doe bleat or soft grunt. If you were to get a favorable response don't overdo it. Your highest percentage strategy during the early season is hunting preferred food sources both early and late.


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## outdoorkid1 (Nov 20, 2010)

Great thread

Marking to read for later


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## Kabby (Aug 18, 2010)

Amazing thread!


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## JRBell (Oct 5, 2012)

Dean,
Thank you for sharing your years of experience with all of us on here. I just recently found this thread and have spent every chance reading it and absorbing the knowledge contained (when I am not out prepping for Season)
I look forward to putting some of this to use this season (October 1st can't get here soon enough) and hope to post a pic of a successful harvest.
thanks again, and may you find peace and enjoyment again in spending time at one with nature.
God Bless,
JR


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## PONDER (Sep 8, 2007)

Great thread


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## chrisj0616 (May 31, 2013)

Tag

Sent from my Milestone X2 using Tapatalk 2


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## Old Hoyt Man (Oct 31, 2012)

Tag


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## DTucK (May 19, 2011)

bump


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## TailChaser (Aug 13, 2005)

I love your writing dean. Just honest, sometimes simple true stuff that most of us would forget to mention, along with some stuff I never knew. Great read for new and old.


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## Buck Up (Feb 15, 2013)

Sorry Dean but I have a hard time reading a word you write after the whole big boy hoax a few years back. Don't know what that was all about but in my eyes all your credibility event down the drain with that.


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## N0va (Sep 26, 2013)

bump^


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## tazman7 (Nov 5, 2005)

Great thread! 

I need advice on how to find good hunting land!


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## jbsoonerfan (Aug 15, 2008)

Buck Up said:


> Sorry Dean but I have a hard time reading a word you write after the whole big boy hoax a few years back. Don't know what that was all about but in my eyes all your credibility event down the drain with that.


I was the same as you. However, after a few PM's with Dean, I have come to realize that he truly is here to try to help others become a better hunter. I think Big Boy took on a story of its own and Dean got out of hand with it. Probably something he regrets to some extent. 

His trophies should stand alone as someone who knows what they are talking about.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

Dean has some solid advice in this thread.


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## JRBell (Oct 5, 2012)

I know his advice was valuable to me this year. I finally got my first deer using some of the advice from his post. Now i am gonba use the rest to go after that big buck on our land!!!!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

jbsoonerfan said:


> I was the same as you. However, after a few PM's with Dean, I have come to realize that he truly is here to try to help others become a better hunter. I think Big Boy took on a story of its own and Dean got out of hand with it. Probably something he regrets to some extent.
> 
> His trophies should stand alone as someone who knows what they are talking about.


You hit the nail right on the head. I originally came on here looking for information on shooting FITA. I got hooked on reading about others experiences and it became evident many had unanswered questions. The Big Boy Deer episode I do regret. If I would do it all over again I would gave just gave advice but I got intrigued by the idea of helping a newcomer to trophy deer hunting harvest a new state record buck. There were many things that happened behind the scenes on that deer nobody was aware of. I essentially devoted two years of my hunting time trying to help this boy take the deer legally. The area was well known for poaching. I received death threats over the deer and had to get my concealed carry. I received much ridicule here and to be honest got fed up with the negativity. Many thought I was in it for myself when in fact I didn't carry my bow. If I did carry my bow I certainly could have killed a monster because I had one at 20 yards. Yes, I regret the whole killing the deer thing but I was pissed at many and it was my way of getting back at them. On hindsight it was poorly done and I wish I didn't do it. Do yes I made a mistake. The deer certainly has died of old age by now. The reason for this thread was to pass on my experiences so that it wouldn't be lost--I have a brain lesion that possibly could have been life threatening. Lots has happened since the thread started. I learned to post pictures, be a little more patient with people, life is unpredictable so be prepared and treat everyday as if it is your last. Cherish each day with loved ones and enjoy your times afield because all of our days are numbered. My son died and with that the life has been sucked out of me. I honestly put this out to help people enjoy their time afield.


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## FLGobstopper (Dec 28, 2004)

Praying for you and your family Dean! You have taken something God has given you a passion and a gift for and used it to help people some people. And as stated you helped a lot of people through this thread which we appreciate and it is one of those *rare* "diamonds in the rough" you find on AT and the only reason I still hang around here. Please keep sharing and don't give up God has a purpose for you and it's more than deer hunting. Thank you!


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## drew13 (Sep 26, 2011)

subscribed for later


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

I've said it before. Best thread on this site


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## doublelung92 (Nov 8, 2011)

I know this is a little late, but a topic I don't believe has been talked about is the range of a mature buck. What have you found is the typical range of a mature buck?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

doublelung92 said:


> I know this is a little late, but a topic I don't believe has been talked about is the range of a mature buck. What have you found is the typical range of a mature buck?


That is a very good question. I have found that each bucks behavior is different. I have seen many that seem pleased to hang out in a 2-4 square mile area but then again I've seen buck travel many miles especially during the rut. Think back to the number of bucks you've seen during the rut that you'd never seen before. I can think of a handful of buck that I was intimately familiar with that mysteriously disappeared to only end up dead 6-10 miles away.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Things are starting to blow up if your paying attention. I'm predicting dead deer to really start showing up on the highway. The deer I've been watching are in the late pre rut stage still actively running scrapes but starting to cruise. If this cold spell holds I'm thinking we'll start to see some cruising. Be on the lookout for your scrapes to leaf over and then it's time to rattle early in the day. Hunt down wind of doe bedding areas in the morning and between food sources and bedding areas in the evening.


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## PaHick (Dec 21, 2005)

Dean i have seen a big jump of deer hit on the roads here in pa.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

It's on, hunt slightly downwind of doe bedding areas and travel corridors, funnels...The buck are on their feet


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## S.F. steve (Mar 1, 2010)

great thread.


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## redneck_pf (Aug 27, 2009)

Dean, you've given some great advice in this thread. I haven't gotten to read all the way through it yet, but one of these days I will. 

Thanks


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## XFORCEGUY (Oct 16, 2012)

In for future reference


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## DeadPhoenix (Oct 4, 2013)

I've just read every tidbit on this thread and will say it was so full of information. Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us your experiences. I enjoyed reading every word of them and look forward to any more you may decide to post! 

I just started hunting this year and am trying to sponge up as much information as possible. Many people around me who hunt aren't serious about hunting or learning about deer and simply brush off my planning or approach to areas. I want to learn as much as possible about deer and their habits and your posts were so helpful. I hunt public land in IL and public only. It's been so hard for me to narrow down on where the deer are and why and my sightings are few and far between. I don't think I am in ideal places and just need to keep at it and figure out what they are eating, when, and where they bed down at ( when it's not obvious and in grass ).

I tend to see mostly small bucks though, does this mean something? As in fork horns, spikes..etc I think I am not hunting core areas and just see stragglers or something.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Sorry for not posting for a while but I've been hunting. I tagged out in Ohio on a solid 8 but most importantly I took my nephew and he got his first nice buck (a 25.5" wide 8). I have since switched to Illinois and things up here are pretty well smoking. Every buck I've seen is with a doe but unfortunately most of the activity has been very early or late with most happening at night. I saw two solid Booners yesterday. I had a huge 170+ at 7 yards but he caught me flat footed trying to knock an arrow. I was standing in the Y of a fallen tree about 10' off the ground when all heck broke loss from dead behind me. The buck softly grunted with each bound he took and came to stop behind some obstacles. The doe he was tending busted me so I had to try to knock an arrow because she was obviously getting ready to bolt. Anyhow, were heading back out in a few to try to get him.


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## solobowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

Dean Bower said:


> Sorry for not posting for a while but I've been hunting. I tagged out in Ohio on a solid 8 but most importantly I took my nephew and he got his first nice buck (a 25.5" wide 8). I have since switched to Illinois and things up here are pretty well smoking. Every buck I've seen is with a doe but unfortunately most of the activity has been very early or late with most happening at night. I saw two solid Booners yesterday. I had a huge 170+ at 7 yards but he caught me flat footed trying to knock an arrow. I was standing in the Y of a fallen tree about 10' off the ground when all heck broke loss from dead behind me. The buck softly grunted with each bound he took and came to stop behind some obstacles. The doe he was tending busted me so I had to try to knock an arrow because she was obviously getting ready to bolt. Anyhow, were heading back out in a few to try to get him.


Good luck! Hope u get em!


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## 7sand8s (Jan 22, 2012)

More, more, we want more


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## eliminator2 (Feb 19, 2011)

Tagged


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## Outdoorsman63 (Aug 22, 2011)

In for later


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## L8drop (Nov 1, 2013)

Tagged for great reading material


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Time to be doing some scouting men, the bachelor groups should be standing around in green fields and food plots for your viewing pleasure.


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## Ryanp019 (Sep 30, 2012)

That they are


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## spikker (Oct 22, 2013)

Good to see this thread again!


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## shagvirus (Apr 17, 2010)

Not blessed to have food plots nor fields


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## solobowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

My one pre season camera pull got me excited. Now to keep my Butt out of there til season


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

solobowhunter said:


> My one pre season camera pull got me excited. Now to keep my Butt out of there til season


It looks like it's going to be a good year for buck!


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## obeRON (Apr 3, 2009)

pics of last years deer?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

obeRON said:


> pics of last years deer?


I didn't hunt as much as usual but managed to take a few with less emphasis on antlers and more on sharing with my family. I have a close nephew that really likes bow hunting. I took him to Ohio and we both took nice buck and his was the best of his life.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I took a nicer 10 point near my house and a small non typical during rifle season. I've been seeing lots of nice deer this year!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

We should be right in the middle of a two week period where most antlered buck will shed their velvet. The buck will remain in bachelor groups for another week or so and then start to break up. Scrapes and rubs should begin to start showing up. The buck will perform the annual fall disappearing act within the next two weeks. The deer are already starting to replace their summer coat with winter ones. Deer will be;seeking out cool areas, water, white oak acorns. Most deer activity will be early and late in the day. It's time to hang some stands if you haven't already done it.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I never posted any pics of my first attempt at a food plot. I planted this small plot last year and it turned out really well. The deer loved it and it helped many through a harsh winter. I started by testing the soil and applying the recommended amount of fertilizers and lime after I cut the grass down real close to the soil. I sprayed the area with Roundup and waited 10 days until everything was good and dead. I then tilled it up about 4-6" deep and removed all of the rock and roots by hand. I spread some "Throw and Grow" with a spreader after I rolled the area with a roller 1/2 full of water. I then filled the roller up and rolled it again which pushed the seed in the ground about 1/4". Within a week it was up about 1/4" tall and perhaps 6" tall by 3 weeks. The deer didn't recognize it as food until about the last week of October. They began hitting hard after the first frost and it was completely gone by early December.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> I never posted any pics of my first attempt at a food plot. I planted this small plot last year and it turned out really well. The deer loved it and it helped many through a harsh winter. I started by testing the soil and applying the recommended amount of fertilizers and lime after I cut the grass down real close to the soil. I sprayed the area with Roundup and waited 10 days until everything was good and dead. I then tilled it up about 4-6" deep and removed all of the rock and roots by hand. I spread some "Throw and Grow" with a spreader after I rolled the area with a roller 1/2 full of water. I then filled the roller up and rolled it again which pushed the seed in the ground about 1/4". Within a week it was up about 1/4" tall and perhaps 6" tall by 3 weeks. The deer didn't recognize it as food until about the last week of October. The began hitting hard after the first frost and it was completely gone by early December.


Here is the picture, I apologize for how small it is but I had to crop it so AT would accept the file size. The picture with the buck is from a couple weeks ago. They know it's there now and have been using it regularly. I planted some sugar beets, turnips, chicory and throw and grow this year in hopes of extending the food supply well into winter. The good news is I tested the soil this year before I planted and the ground only required 1 bag of fertilizer where last year/the initial year I had to throw about $500 worth at it.


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## gtsum2 (Dec 31, 2008)

Looks great and thanks for the tips!


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## solobowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

How long does it seem to take for deer to start using your plot again after the acorns start dropping?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

solobowhunter said:


> How long does it seem to take for deer to start using your plot again after the acorns start dropping?


I don't have enough acorns around my house to sustain the deer long enough to keep them off the plot.


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## hbuscg33 (Jun 11, 2011)

Tag


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## coltd65 (Aug 1, 2012)

Tagged. Thanks!


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## JRHOADES20 (Jul 11, 2012)

Tagged


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## rutnut (Oct 8, 2007)

Dean Bower said:


> We should be right in the middle of a two week period where most antlered buck will shed their velvet. The buck will remain in bachelor groups for another week or so and then start to break up. Scrapes and rubs should begin to start showing up. The buck will perform the annual fall disappearing act within the next two weeks. The deer are already starting to replace their summer coat with winter ones. Deer will be;seeking out cool areas, water, white oak acorns. Most deer activity will be early and late in the day. It's time to hang some stands if you haven't already done it.


The bucks I've been watching all shed on Aug 27 th and 28th. Several of the bucks have not shown on camera since the velvet came off. Got buddies on some great deer but the question is Will the deer change their routines between now and when season opens on the 13 of Sept? I've had bucks patterned that literally changed overnight the day before the opener. Sure can be frustrating in Sept hunting


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

It sounds like the buck in your area are a little ahead of my area; Which state do you live in? In response to your question, I do believe the deer you've been watching will change their pattern before Sept 13th.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a request for information regarding hunting mountainous areas of the East. When I get a little time I'll write up a post.


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## durby (Nov 2, 2012)

Dean, I'm 16 and will be hunting MO public land this year, what tip could you give me for early season hunting stand locations, and have you ever hunted on or by power line cuts? Thanks


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## KCDomer (Mar 12, 2014)

Tagged


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## jackson1031 (Nov 13, 2013)

Dean, 
I hunt in nor cal and our season is in Oct and its still high 80's low 90' a lot and the land I hunt is public and someone has rights to run cattle on it

In a valley between 2 hills I found a water trough for the cattle. I don't know of any other water source in the area. Would I be better off hunting in the morning or evening?

And do you have an email that I can send some topo photos and maybe you can help point me in the right direction?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

jackson1031 said:


> Dean,
> I hunt in nor cal and our season is in Oct and its still high 80's low 90' a lot and the land I hunt is public and someone has rights to run cattle on it
> 
> In a valley between 2 hills I found a water trough for the cattle. I don't know of any other water source in the area. Would I be better off hunting in the morning or evening?
> ...


The evening would be your best bet.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

durby said:


> Dean, I'm 16 and will be hunting MO public land this year, what tip could you give me for early season hunting stand locations, and have you ever hunted on or by power line cuts? Thanks


Montana!!, that's a beautiful state and one I know nothing of??


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## durby (Nov 2, 2012)

Acualty Missouri, would u mind looking at a top map of the area.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

durby said:


> Acualty Missouri, would u mind looking at a top map of the area.


That's a little embarrassing, send me the map! Are you sure you still warn to ask?

Pm sent


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## durby (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks, will do. I appreciate any help that will help me be a better Hunter.


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## solobowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

You seeing any hard horns yet Dean?


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

solobowhunter said:


> You seeing any hard horns yet Dean?


Yes, the buck I've been watching shed their velvet right on time ( sept 5th-9th). I have found it interesting this year that the deer seem to really be focusing on wild cherries that have fallen.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a few pictures of buck with blood around the base of their velvet covered rack one night and the next night all the velvet is gone.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Dean Bower said:


> I have a few pictures of buck with blood around the base of their velvet covered rack one night and the next night all the velvet is gone.


Here is a picture or two from earlier this week.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

There seems to be a lot of small 9 pointers running around this year and an occasional 10


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm predicting the first week of November to be the best week to be in the woods with the lock down happening the second week of November. The peek of the rut should be around November 7-8th this year. Things could be a little earlier up North and later down south.


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## Ryanp019 (Sep 30, 2012)

I agree dean


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## chad8 (Sep 6, 2011)

Tag. Following


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

I like this


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## Mickermic (Aug 11, 2006)

mark


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## Jeepercreepers (Apr 2, 2011)

Dean.

what are your thoughts on buck doe ratio? 

I just started bow hunting 2 years ago and rifle hunting 4 years ago. My family's land is right at 500 acres of hilly hard woods, about 60 acres of pasture. 

I have sat in stands all day long and see any where from 6 to 15 doe on one day. 

2 seasons ago i borrowed a trail cam and would broad cast corn on the edge of a small 1 acre pasture. The first 4 weeks would be 10 or more does and 6 small bucks all very young. The 5th week i got 2 monsters on camera. One a main frame 12 and the other a older large 10. 

I have never seen bucks chasing. I have tried grunts and all that and never had any luck. 

I last 2 seasons i harvested 16 does and 3 bucks and you can drive up one a paricular hill just about any day around 5pm and see 5 or 6 does on one end or the other of the larger pasture. 

In early bow season I will see groups of 3 or 4 small bucks travelling together but after the Bachelor groups break up I rarely see any bucks.

last year opening day of gun season. I had 4 does come out on me 2 went on and the other two literally stood there browsing on a old logging road. One was 5 ft from my stand starring at me but couldn't figure me out. I gave them 5 more mins to clear out and then took them both.

not even 6 mins after that I had 7 does come crashing out of the woods running straight to me. I had my 2 limit so I just watched them barrel by. 

I hear people say 1:1 ratio and I have always been a hunt for meat guy until I saw those two big guys. 

Your tips have given me some better ideas on what I need to be doing. But I still think there are to many doe and the bucks just don't have to chase to get there doe.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

^ first and foremost congrats on what sounds like an excellent parcel of land to hunt!!!! Many, myself included, would love to have access to such a large tract to hunt and manage. I read your post and I'm not really sure what your asking other than do I think you should thin the doe out; From the sounds of your description your already doing that. My guess on why your not seeing bucks is your pretty well blasting everything you see. A few well placed small food plots might draw in a fairly large congregation of doe where you could better evaluate the population and possibly a few buck if you start to become a little selective. If you decide your really wanting to try for one of the larger buck you may want to read and study the thread closely or you'd simply be relying on pure luck to succeed. I like doing everything in my power to increase my odds of success and that means being flexible and willing to adjust my hunting strategies based upon what I'm seeing in the field. I hope that sort of answers your post??

Good luck hunting!


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## Timber Hawk (Aug 31, 2007)

Dean I always like your posts, good luck this season.


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## Jeepercreepers (Apr 2, 2011)

Well I do have a tendency to get off subject. We decided last year to be more selective in the deer we take. Deer is my family's primary source of meat. 

Last year we decided we would start putting out some small green fields and we do have some trail cameras now but will probably wait to put them out after the season. 

I do know the bedding area the buck uses and have got his primary travel route down to a point then I have no idea where he is going after that. 

We put up a tall shoot house in the middle of the big pasture to scout from. 

He travels some really thick stuff that you can't get through with out walking the game trail or bush waking your way through. We have never gone into those areas for fear of spooking him off. 

But yes I was originally asking if you thought we had way to many does. 

I got a lot of good tips and realized I was wasting some time in some of the areas I was hunting him. 

Thanks again for your time.


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## BigBlock496 (Aug 13, 2014)

subbed for later


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## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

Marked


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## whacker48 (Jul 31, 2011)

marked to read later


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## PaHick (Dec 21, 2005)

Dean how the season going. Things are picking up. Here locly there was a major buck movement last night and I personally heard of 6 bucks being killed just last night.


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## golfanddeernut (Sep 11, 2012)

I went to change my film at lunch time and saw a nice 8 point at 20 yards, this is the second time I gave him a pass, it is getting difficult. When I checked the film at my one stand 3 different bucks have shown up, my target buck is only showing up at night and he made a scrape. The other two are showing up in daylight but are not shooters(the 8 again and a 6). I have not seen a buck at this spot in months so the deer are definitely starting to prowl in prerut fashion. It won't be long now till we are in full swing. I want to go out tonight to that stand but wondering if I should wait since my shooter is only coming at night.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

I had a first for me this year. I have not killed a single deer. I'm not sure if I've moved on to another stage in my hunting career or if I was just being too selective. I spent two weeks in South Cental Ohio near Chilecothe trying to learn some new areas. I saw plenty of buck but only one that I got excited about. I spent the majority of my time looking at them or trying to help others get one. I then traveled to the bow counties of Southern WV and again saw a few P&Y class buck but nothing that seemed interesting. I returned home for a week of rifle hunting and before I knew it it was time to go back to work. The good news I guess is I got to learn some new country and a few of the deer I've been letting slide should be really nice next year. I've got two local buck near my home that probably would score 135-145 this year and to my knowledge their both still alive. I hope you guys had a good season and made some great memories.


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## HoosierArcher88 (Jan 10, 2013)

Back up top for some great reads! Idk if you're even around these parts anymore Dean, if so, what's the report? Any sightings of the bucks you let slide last year?


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## DTucK (May 19, 2011)

bump!


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## Outdoorlife89 (Feb 24, 2014)

Started reading this last night. Great read and TTT for those that never seen this


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## Jbthompson021 (Jul 15, 2016)

ttt


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

Last year was a phenomenal year. I saw more P&Y class deer than any year. I did manage to take one and got some pictures of others which was very enjoyable.I saw several 150-200" deer. I drew on a few in the 150 class but their still walking so maybe this year???


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

My nephew took one of the buck we let go in 2014 and it ended up going 142. My nephew more or less has taken over where I left off. The good news is he learned early to let them walk when their young.


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

This is a poor quality picture of a titanic non typical buck standing beside the road! It had tremendous mass and scored at least 180 and maybe 200??


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## NEBBuckHunter (Mar 18, 2015)

Great stuff! Keep it coming!


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## DB444 (Feb 20, 2009)

DanielLee5 said:


> Keep writing! Did you use any professional optics like HD binoculars or other night vision devices? Or I just can use 200-300 $ stuff? Thanks in advance.


I only used cheap generation 1 night vision simply because the higher quality equipment is very expensive. Generation 1 will allow you to see and identify out to about 50 yards in the woods. Saying that, generation 1 is more than adequate for locating downed game. The whites of the belly and eyes glow making them easy to spot.


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## longbeard02 (Aug 7, 2009)

tagged


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## bama350 (Apr 3, 2016)

Yes


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## duckhunter92 (Jan 19, 2012)

Tagged


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## sjj1856 (Sep 23, 2014)

Tagged


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## Oncorhynchus (May 19, 2016)

tagged for the knowledge


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## laur (Sep 6, 2017)

In, to finish reading later.


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## Ugly_Duck (Mar 6, 2013)

In for later


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## Yeticall (Nov 4, 2014)

Just found this


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## Ksbowhunter449 (Nov 3, 2012)

Interesting thread...


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## hookedonbow (Jul 24, 2010)

Awesome read.
Dean how does one find and hunt those ghost deer that show up only once or twice a yr on ones small parcel of say 75 acres?


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## Man of Leisure (May 9, 2012)

Tagging this to read


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## hookedonbow (Jul 24, 2010)

Man of Leisure said:


> Tagging this to read


Wow sure brought up an old thread.


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## Man of Leisure (May 9, 2012)

Someone was looking for this thread yesterday and someone posted the link, this was the link and I wanted to read it. So far I have read half of page one.


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## cchadww (Aug 4, 2019)

Man of Leisure said:


> Someone was looking for this thread yesterday and someone posted the link, this was the link and I wanted to read it. So far I have read half of page one.


[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cchadww (Aug 4, 2019)

Man of Leisure said:


> Someone was looking for this thread yesterday and someone posted the link, this was the link and I wanted to read it. So far I have read half of page one.


[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

I know this is an old thread, but also saw a recent thread looking for it. I was pretty new to AT when it was first posted and read some of it. The information is not new, but the personal insights and applications continue to be valuable. I am following it to review before hunting season next fall....worthwhile knowledge to refresh the mind and chew on.


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## WVarcher32 (Oct 9, 2019)

I am so glad I posted the thread looking for this. Lots of valuable information in it. On page 3, can't wait to re read the rest.


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## dkkarr (Jun 12, 2011)

👍


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