# Helical or Straight Fletch???



## VaTrad (Mar 20, 2017)

For those of you who make your own arrows, which do you prefer using? Helical or Straight fletching clamps? What is your reason for the preference? I know I want RW feathers 5" just for the better availability and less probability of points getting loose...but which clamps?


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## double0lx (Dec 2, 2007)

RW feathers prefer right helical clamp. Use helical... better rotation = more stability while in flight. Just don't mix right helical with straight on the same arrow.. I hope this helps and enjoy


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## VaTrad (Mar 20, 2017)

That was my thoughts but just wanted to confirm....Thanks!


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Helical is my favorite. I like the way they look. I can also get better contact of the base of the feather around the rotation of the arrow if I want to go with a more extrema offset. However a “straight” clamp is not designed to be used straight , they are designed to have a straight offset instead if a helical “offset” The straight offset also gives pretty good drag characteristics.For some stiff plastic vanes straight can give better contact to the arrow base. A straight clamp can also be offset for right or left wing . This gives you some flexibility for future projects without additional investments


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## Judojones (Mar 8, 2017)

Helical for feathers all the way. Just because it fun to see the arrow spin. Straight offset for plastic type vanes. IMO


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I always use helical, why fight the natural curl of the feather? A helical clamp also gives me a better mate between the quill and shaft with the offset I use.


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm probably talking out of my ass, so take it with a grain of salt, but I hate helical. The least influence at the back of the arrow the better in my opinion. Yes, it is spinning the arrow, but I just don't like stuff going on back there.

I bought a set of GT Traditional .600's with 5" helical fletching. Hated it. Grouped way left and low compared to my other arrows. Re-fletched then with 3", 2 degree offset, they fly beautifully.

You can call me crazy and going against every known convention in archery, but I'm not convinced a tight helical is better for arrow flight compared to just letting a heavy front lead and the back provide just enough drag to stay in line.

Emrah 


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

I'm with you there. Straight with slight offset and as little fletching as possible. Bare shaft tune. Drag is not your friend for down range speed. If you don't shoot long shot go for as much as you can add.
Dan


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

VaTrad said:


> For those of you who make your own arrows, which do you prefer using? Helical or Straight fletching clamps? What is your reason for the preference? I know I want RW feathers 5" just for the better availability and less probability of points getting loose...but which clamps?


Helical for me... and I use rw 5" or 5.5" feathers.....


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## 3D Archery (May 19, 2016)

I was told by the engineers at Gold Tip that it does not matter for Trad bows. We have neither the speed or distance (of shot) to see any difference. Stopped using Helical after that.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

If your planning to shoot broadheads imho you should shoot helical 

I shoot big bodied deer close up and I want my arrow straightening out very quickly for maximum penetration


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

Nice!


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

3D Archery said:


> I was told by the engineers at Gold Tip that it does not matter for Trad bows. We have neither the speed or distance (of shot) to see any difference. Stopped using Helical after that.


Hmmm. At shorter distances, sub 50 yards, I would agree with that, no problem. But I wonder. Say, shooting clout or Archery Golf I wonder if the additional drag from a heavy helical might not become a "shootable" difference in regards to cast.

None the less, if we do accept the blanket statement that it does not matter at face value, why not quit using straight and go helical in order to take advantage of a higher rate of spin and more stable flight at ANY speed or distance?


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

Anyone know how much stabilization rotation REALLY adds to an arrow as compared to feathers providing just plain old drag to keep the back in line? I'm not making a claim, just asking. I mean it's not spinning like a .223 bullet at 300k rpm or anything.

I guess my real question is what's more important to arrow flight: drag at the back or the rotation? And I'm talking at any distance, long or short. 

It just seems to me that helical does weird things to the arrow; has too much influence (aside from providing rotation) from way back there farthest away from the business end.

Like I said, I'm probably talking out of my ass and my release isn't exactly the greatest, so maybe that's why I get the results I get. But I'm sticking with a super heavy front (high foc) and letting the back follow.

Emrah 


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

The more rotation the more drag


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

emrah said:


> Anyone know how much stabilization rotation REALLY adds to an arrow as compared to feathers providing just plain old drag to keep the back in line? I'm not making a claim, just asking. I mean it's not spinning like a .223 bullet at 300k rpm or anything.
> 
> I guess my real question is what's more important to arrow flight: drag at the back or the rotation? And I'm talking at any distance, long or short.
> 
> ...


What keeps the rear of the arrow following the front is a combination of having the center of mass forward of center and the drag on the back due to fletching. Helical provides more drag than straight so with your strategy helical would work to your advantage.

As far as the spin, there's no comparing an arrow to a bullet. There's not enough angular velocity to create the gyroscopic effect that a bullet sees. Rotation of the arrow does have the effect of evening out any imbalance in the forces applied by each individual fletch, misalignment of the point, mass imbalance or any deviation from perfect straightness in the shaft. this is especially important with broadheads as they are basically wings on the front of the arrow and are prone to planing. 

If you are using feathers you will get some arrow spin no matter what you do since feathers have a different drag coefficient on each side that will produce some spin. I've never been a fan of straight clamps since the feather itself is curved, why fight it? That's why they make right and left handed helical clamps. If you don't want a lot of helical, don't offset the clamp any more than necessary

As far as downrange drag, tune your arrows as well as possible and you need minimal fletching. With field points and target shooting you need hardly any fletching with a well tuned arrow so use tiny feathers with a slight helical. 

Broadheads are a different story. In my opinion shooting sharp sticks at things that bleed is not the time for minimizing anything. Even with a good tune I use 4" or 5" feathers and full helical. I think it makes a big difference in reliable broadhead flight.

I use the same arrow and fletching pattern for all of my shooting so I am used to the trajectory.


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## BassBoysLLP (Mar 12, 2011)

I set up my bows to hunt. Helical is the way to go. Good BH flight and penetration

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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

BassBoysLLP said:


> I set up my bows to hunt. Helical is the way to go. Good BH flight and penetration
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Agree about the need for the absolute best flight and penetration. I'm just curious how much helical brings to the party as opposed to a high foc. Again, I'm not arguing because I'm probably wrong. I'm just curious how much it really helps. For my shooting, I found it a hinderance with those arrows. Of course I pluck like a backwoods banjo player.

Emrah 


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

emrah said:


> Agree about the need for the absolute best flight and penetration. I'm just curious how much helical brings to the party as opposed to a high foc. Again, I'm not arguing because I'm probably wrong. I'm just curious how much it really helps. For my shooting, I found it a hinderance with those arrows. Of course I pluck like a backwoods banjo player.
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


What was the hinderance ? 

I shoot high FOC and really hard helical no issues


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

JParanee said:


> What was the hinderance ?
> 
> I shoot high FOC and really hard helical no issues


They grouped way left and low compared to regular offset fletched arrows. I had to aim unnaturally way right just to hit where I wanted.

Same arrows bare shaft and 3" 2 degree offset fletched flew dead straight.

Emrah 


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

For accuracy, would I rather shoot a smooth bore or a bore with rifling in it? 

Bowmania


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Straight with a slight offset.

KPC


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

Bowmania said:


> For accuracy, would I rather shoot a smooth bore or a bore with rifling in it?
> 
> Bowmania


A bullet spinning and an arrow spinning are not even in the same league. How many rpm does the average arrow spin anyway?

Emrah 


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

emrah said:


> They grouped way left and low compared to regular offset fletched arrows. I had to aim unnaturally way right just to hit where I wanted.
> 
> Same arrows bare shaft and 3" 2 degree offset fletched flew dead straight.
> 
> ...


What's your bareshaft tune like


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I use straight offset these days. I used helical in the past but didn't see an appreciable difference in performance. I also use much smaller fletchings than I used to.


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## BassBoysLLP (Mar 12, 2011)

JParanee said:


> What was the hinderance ?
> 
> I shoot high FOC and really hard helical no issues


Same here. Heavy heads and big helical fletch is bad medicine for critters

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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

JParanee said:


> What's your bareshaft tune like


Like I said, perfect bareshaft with those exact arrows. 

Emrah 


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I use helical but I don't maximize offset. I want them to spin quickly.
Too much drag really only shows up at longer distance with light arrows. I tried a set of mylar vanes which were great to 40 yds then just completely fell apart. It was what is known as parachuting.


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## anthrope (Apr 11, 2017)

I have been shooting a mixed set of helical(parabolic) and straight(shield cut) together for about a month. Pure happenstance, didn't do it to test them or anything.

I did not notice any difference in their flights. This is indoors at 20 yards. I have no idea how they'd behave if these parameters change.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Now one thing to keep in mind is that the "helical" is dictated by the fletch clamp itself. Given a particular jig and its clamp, the amount of helical, "It is what it is." What we get to adjust is choosing between straight and the amount of helical that our jig manufacturer offers on their helical clamp. Then, SOME jigs do offer us the choice to adjust offset. 

To answer one posters question, there IS a way to measure arrow rotation, looks like a real PITA, but I did see where one person was getting approx 3,600 rpm. I myself haven't looked into it.

From a purely practical perspective, I do not agonize over it. I do find it an interesting subject though. I have 3 Bitz jigs. They have been gifts over the years. They all came with RW helical clamps. So there ya go. The only thing I mess with is offset given significant changes in arrow diameter and/or fletch length. Sometimes you gotta adjust the jig some to get best possible fletch contact. Beyond that, well, like I said, "It is what it is."

Turbonocks anyone?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 








60 yards, everything is equal (including total arrow weight) except for type of fletch and orientation. 

Viper1 out.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

What I see from that pic, (admittedly not a statistically significant sample size) is the larger feather fletch which carries its own helical bias regardless of clamp style is shooting one to two inches lower, and a tighter group.

Clearly a shootable difference for a decent shooter. 

Between the 2 arrow configurations, if what is shown in the pics proves to be statistically significant, I know which I would choose.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> View attachment 5813153
> 
> ...


Thx Viper 

The reason I use big feathers is because I'm primarily a hunter shooting large heads that need a lot of control for my at times imperfect release 

For me as mentioned I want my arrow to straighten out asap 

If the op's bare shafting well I do not know why his arrows are flying that different with field points from helical to straight 

Maybe viper can answer


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Bender - 

2" lower at 60 yards isn't something I would worry about and I seriously doubt you should/could either. 
You could say the the vanes are "higher" even at 20 yards than the feathered arrows, but not anything that anyone being honest would worry about. 









Joe - 

And that makes sense, except that the compound boys are typically shooting a lot smaller vanes and doing quite well, albeit at a somewhat higher velocity. But then you have a number of recurve guys doing the same thing with impunity. You want more air resistance at the tail of the arrow than at the front, the question becomes how much more and when is enough, enough and worse, exactly how much of a difference will it make. At 20 yards, high(er) FOC + larger feathers, showed no statistical difference in scores compared to low(er) FOC and smaller vanes. 

Bigger fletch with a fair amount of helical provide better viability, but smaller plastic vans are cheaper and last longer - so pick your poison. Now if you get to the level of flu-flus, things change...








(OK, arrows were NOT identical to previous, and launch angle had to be optimized). 

Viper1 out.


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## MontanaS (Mar 26, 2014)

I shoot straight. My arrows seem to be lining out really quickly too. Read an article not long ago ( can't remember where, sorry ) where they chrono'd both straight and helical arrows and the straight fletched were 4 to 5 fps faster. I'm shooting really heavy hardwood shafts and want us much speed as possible.


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## 3D Archery (May 19, 2016)

Bender said:


> Hmmm. At shorter distances, sub 50 yards, I would agree with that, no problem. But I wonder. Say, shooting clout or Archery Golf I wonder if the additional drag from a heavy helical might not become a "shootable" difference in regards to cast.
> 
> None the less, if we do accept the blanket statement that it does not matter at face value, why not quit using straight and go helical in order to take advantage of a higher rate of spin and more stable flight at ANY speed or distance?


We were not talking about Clout or Archery Golf. We were talking hunting, target and 3D Archery. What is the rate of spin? Has anyone ever recorded, studied that or is it just an assumption with no data to back it up?


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## VaTrad (Mar 20, 2017)

Well I definitely got my answer to my original question.....guess its one of those Ford/Chevy type deals. I personally like the look of the helical feathers and will probably use them until I find a good reason not to.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Bender -
> 
> 2" lower at 60 yards isn't something I would worry about and I seriously doubt you should/could either.
> You could say the the vanes are "higher" even at 20 yards than the feathered arrows, but not anything that anyone being honest would worry about.
> ...


2" at 60 is the difference between a 4 or a 5 in a Field round. So it is a "shootable" difference. But nobody in their right mind would be shooting a Field round with arrows of randomly mixed fletching. So you pick one or the other. The tighter group though, that would be something to be desired.

As pointed out though, at 20 yards, the difference does become so small as to become effectively "unshootable" given finger release, and no sight.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Oh and Viper I forgot to add, yes I AM a shooter that can shoot the difference.

I don't make a big deal about it, but considering that I have MANY wins at the State, National, and International level, including several State and National records, and one IFAA World Record, AND considering that you have absolutely NO idea who you are talking to, the comment that it is something that I am not even at a level where it could matter to me is somewhat insulting. 

But that IS how you roll, isn't it? Insult everybody that you can lay your hands on.

I guess whatever makes you feel better about yourself, right?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Bender - 

Dude, this isn't personal, seems like you're the only one who's taking it that way. 

These days, I live between 60 yards and 70M. 
I may not be a BB "champion", but i have a pretty good idea what effects arrow flight at those distances and I'll stand by my results. Since I use a real sight, aiming really isn't a factor.

3D -

Rate of spin is a minor factor as far as accuracy with arrows go, since we're talking about what's called "spear ballistics" as opposed to projectile (bullet) ballistics. I can switch between feather fletched and vaned arrows of the same weight at most distances and not miss a beat or change a sight setting. 

Viper1 out.


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## bullrambler (Mar 11, 2006)

No need to get our fletching bent out of shape as the resulting inconsistency may prove undesireable... (this statement is meant to be taken as a dry joke)

I shoot left handed and notice that there are not any arrows built with the helical on feathers done in the opposite direction as to what sits in the arrow bins at the archery shops that I frequently go to. It has been stated (somewhere) that the direction of the helical does not matter - as long as the fletching is consistently applied to the arrows... If this is so, then why do we not see arrows fletched with both a right or left helical...?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

bullrambler said:


> No need to get our fletching bent out of shape as the resulting inconsistency may prove undesireable... (this statement is meant to be taken as a dry joke)
> 
> I shoot left handed and notice that there are not any arrows built with the helical on feathers done in the opposite direction as to what sits in the arrow bins at the archery shops that I frequently go to. It has been stated (somewhere) that the direction of the helical does not matter - as long as the fletching is consistently applied to the arrows... If this is so, then why do we not see arrows fletched with both a right or left helical...?


We do 

There are right and left wing feathers and right and left helical jigs


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Bender -
> 
> 2" lower at 60 yards isn't something I would worry about and I seriously doubt you should/could either.
> 
> Viper1 out.


That's not personal? You direct a demeaning comment at me, by name, and that's not personal?

You do this to people here all the time. Its has gotten old over the years. Old and really rather sad.


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## bullrambler (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks JParanee for your response I've got in my head that I should try a left helical feather fletch on my arrows to see if there is any difference in arrow flight. I've done some searching for a fletcher that will do the left helical if anyone knows who stocks these left helical fletchers and left wing feathers I would appreciate a suggested place to obtain one.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

bullrambler said:


> Thanks JParanee for your response I've got in my head that I should try a left helical feather fletch on my arrows to see if there is any difference in arrow flight. I've done some searching for a fletcher that will do the left helical if anyone knows who stocks these left helical fletchers and left wing feathers I would appreciate a suggested place to obtain one.





You are welcome 

I do not think you will notice a difference in arrow flight but experimentation is fun so have at it 

You can order the various fletching jigs RW and LW along with the corresponding feathers from many dealers such as Lancaster Archery etc 

Happy shooting and happy Easter


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

There's there one other advantage to a straight fletch, that a lot of people don't think about unless they fletch a low of arrows. With a straight fletch, if you set your offset correctly, you can fletch most arrow diameters without changing the setting on the jig. Actually can't recall the last time I had to readjust mine on the straight jig. The helical on the other hand, usually requires a tweak for optimal quill to shaft contact when changing arrows. 

bull - 

I've been using a Jo-Jan, since before they were called Jo-Jans with left helical clamps. 
I switched to straight about 10 something years ago (see the above). 

Can't see having a problem finding left wing feathers. 

Viper1 out.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Bender, don't mind Viper - he is a New Yorker, it's just a communication style.  He is saying that someone at your skill level is rare. Indeed, I can only think of a few single-string archers who I have observed and shot with who could definitively identify a consistent 2" difference at 60y. Even at that, there are many factors at work and, practically speaking, most would soon aim-off or adjust the sight to eliminate the difference. Heck, I barely see 2" at 60y and, shooting barebow, I am glad to consistently score points at that range.

Last summer, I systematically tested vane size and orientation (helical versus straight offset), as well as a small variation on point weight (100gr -vs- 125gr). I shot modern barebow recurve at 45# and found the following:

*Fletching orientation (helical vs straight) has an impact at shorter distances (<30y). I suspect this is because it effects the initial acceleration of the arrow but once the terminal spin rate is achieved the drag to keep it spinning is about the same. I suspect that helical stabilizes the arrow more quickly. The result is a bit odd in that you would expect a short range difference would translate into an even bigger long range distance but, there it is, those where my actual test results.
*Point weight has a significant impact at longer distances (>40y). I suspect this is because the additional weight alters the fundamental trajectory.
*Fletching length (5" to 2.25") showed little difference at all distances. Definitely no difference between 3" and 2.25" vanes out to 70m.

That was just my own testing - your mileage may vary. I suspect I would see more difference with broadheads due to their propensity to steer the front of the arrow and would therefore use a more conventional 4" helical fletch for hunting arrows, however I also know from my testing that it would normally make little difference at short range (hunting distances). So, I would slap 'em on, bareshaft tune, then broadhead/field point fine tune out to 30y and call it good.


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## 3D Archery (May 19, 2016)

3D -

Rate of spin is a minor factor as far as accuracy with arrows go, since we're talking about what's called "spear ballistics" as opposed to projectile (bullet) ballistics. I can switch between feather fletched and vaned arrows of the same weight at most distances and not miss a beat or change a sight setting. 

Viper1 out.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I just do not understand why people say one type spins faster, What do they base that on, if they have the data I would love to see it.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

bullrambler said:


> Thanks JParanee for your response I've got in my head that I should try a left helical feather fletch on my arrows to see if there is any difference in arrow flight. I've done some searching for a fletcher that will do the left helical if anyone knows who stocks these left helical fletchers and left wing feathers I would appreciate a suggested place to obtain one.


Left is less popular because it makes your points come loose. Right helical tightens them a bit.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

3D Archery said:


> 3D -
> 
> Rate of spin is a minor factor as far as accuracy with arrows go, since we're talking about what's called "spear ballistics" as opposed to projectile (bullet) ballistics. I can switch between feather fletched and vaned arrows of the same weight at most distances and not miss a beat or change a sight setting.
> 
> Viper1 out.


I agree, I just do not understand why people say one type spins faster, What do they base that on, if they have the data I would love to see it.[/QUOTE]

I listen to the flight archers. Less is best. My hunting arrows are four 2-3/4" straight razer feather. I only shoot 4" feather because it's IBO rule. Compound 3D finger mini blazer. For hunting the same as above. I don't shoot a big BH neither.
Dan


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## bullrambler (Mar 11, 2006)

I started rubbing a bit of wax on the threads of my field points and they seem to stay in place better then the ones that have no wax on them. If the helical makes little to no difference in arrow-flight-accuracy then I might as well shoot a straight fletch on the arrows.


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Bender -
> 
> 2" lower at 60 yards isn't something I would worry about and I seriously doubt you should/could either.
> You could say the the vanes are "higher" even at 20 yards than the feathered arrows, but not anything that anyone being honest would worry about.





Bender said:


> That's not personal? You direct a demeaning comment at me, by name, and that's not personal?
> 
> You do this to people here all the time. Its has gotten old over the years. Old and really rather sad.


FWIW I don't see that as a personal insult... merely a statement of experience-based opinion. A little sensitive today, Bender? :smile:

I use Trueflight and Gateway 2.5-inch feathers.

Bitzenbergers w straight and right clamps.

Used to run 4 @ 75*-105* straight. 

Recently began 4 @ 90* with both offset and helical, getting more helical by moving the feather ~1.5 inch from the nock. Also keeps feathers from my face. Spinning arrows seem to give smaller groups, altho I'm not shooting more than 20 yds with my longbow -- yet. 

Oh, to be as accurate with my longbow as I am with my compound...


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Tag


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Left helical.

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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Ryan Sanpei offered a neat idea to the mix on the Helical.

He would take 1" wide tape and flatten out all the feathers to shoot his bare shaft tests. 

Then he would cut the back 1" tape to let that part of the Helical feathers pop up,,, then shoot those arrows with a person watching to see if the arrows are stabilizing faster, and how many milly's of seconds it takes. 

Then Ryan cuts the next 1" of tape allowing 2" of Helical feathers to steer the arrow. 

He does this at 1" at a time till the full extent of the 5" feathers are doing their thing. 

Example:

If his arrows are straightening out with 3" or 4" of Feathers, then that's the length of feathers he uses. 

So Ryan is tuning the arrows at the rear to accommodate his broad heads, that way he doesn't have to have a selection of different weigth heads to get his results. 

He talks about this on The Push Pod Cast, it seems to be working for him since he still tunes his hunting arrows this way. 

What works for Ryan might not work for others, he stresses this as each person gets to pick and choose what works for them. 

I know 1 thing, I'm going to give this a try to see if it makes a difference to my arrows. 

Don


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## Bbshooter (Mar 2, 2018)

Interesting, i’ll try the one inch at a time method of tuning.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Don_Parsons said:


> Ryan Sanpei offered a neat idea to the mix on the Helical.
> 
> He would take 1" wide tape and flatten out all the feathers to shoot his bare shaft tests.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is that this guy Sanpei is claiming that a person can time, by naked eye, how quickly an arrow in flight damps out its oscillations and stabilizes in flight and make time based comparisons on the order of milliseconds? 

For real?


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

I don't think Ryan has this down to the milly seconds as per-say,,, I used this is a broad based term since its hard for me to put this into words. 

Ryan does a much better job at explaining it. 

Ryan finds a spotter he can trust, his spotter "tries" to pick out the flight of the arrow closest to the bow on release. 

They communicate back and forth. 

Ryan will let his spotter know if it was a clean release, the spotter will let Ryan know what he "thought" he saw the arrow was doing leaving the bow. 

Ryan does not have a high speed camera, so he relies on his "quality spotter" to pick out the arrows lunch pattern. 

This is no easy task as those arrows are going pretty fast when they leave the bow. 

All of us can see what a arrow is doing when we shoot arrows into the big Blue skies on clear days, but we some times miss out on the launch cycle at the bow. 

This is where the quality spotter comes in. 

So as I'm guessing,,, Ryan puts Five 1" raps around the feathers to hold them down / flat. 

Not length wize, but "around."
Then his spotter watches the Bare shifts leaving the bow,,, with nothing at the rear of the arrow to steer it, it's all over the map leaving the bow with X broad-head. 

Then Ryan removes the first 1" strip off the very back of arrows and repeats this once again. 

1" of Feather will start to steer most arrows, but it "might" not be enough to stabilize the X broad-head,,, so he keeps removing these 1" strips of tape till the arrows stabilize. 

Now it's the water test, just when he thinks he's got a flat smooth arrow lunch with the feathers that shows good results dry,,, what happens when they are wet !!! 

No easy task when a person is relying on a quality spotter if we don't have a high speed camera,,, I don't have one, so I guess I'll have to "try" this method. 

The Push Pod Cast with Ryan Sanpei is the best tool for this, again,,, he stresses that what works for him "might" not work for others. 

That way we get to pick and choose what path we want to address issues with in our puzzles of Archery. 

That's the best I can explain it, but I see where he's coming from in the hunting aspects. 

Don


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Don_Parsons said:


> Ryan Sanpei offered a neat idea to the mix on the Helical.
> 
> He would take 1" wide tape and flatten out all the feathers to shoot his bare shaft tests.
> 
> ...





Don_Parsons said:


> I don't think Ryan has this down to the milly seconds as per-say,,, I used this is a broad based term since its hard for me to put this into words.
> 
> Ryan does a much better job at explaining it.
> 
> ...


There's several problems with this, at least in my opinion.

For one, taping down the fletching does not completely remove the drag on the back of the shaft. In other words, an arrow with the fletching taped down will not be nearly as sensitive as a bare shaft. It's not bare shaft tuning at all.

Second, fletching area (in[SUP]2[/SUP]) is not the determining factor regarding point weight. Point weight is determined in one of two ways if you want to do it objectively. Start with the shaft length you want and vary point weight in your bare shaft tuning. Alternatively start with the point weight you want to use and starting with long or full length shafts slowly cut them shorter in small increments until you achieve a proper bare shaft tune. 

With a proper bare shaft tune very little fletching is needed with field points and for broadheads it comes down to how much insurance you want. With a good bare shaft tune even broadheads don't need a lot of fletching. I still like three four or five inch helical feathers, but it's mainly to cover for potential shooter error under hunting conditions. 

When I say a good bare shaft tune I mean two or three bare and two or three fletched, all with identical point weight, grouping together from at least 20 yards and 25-30 is even better.

And thirdly, why would you go through a process that needs a second person and is so reliant on subjective evaluation instead of objective data? That's one of the best things about tuning with bare vs fletched shafts, it's easy and the results aren't disputable or reliant on "good eyes". You just walk out and collect your arrows, seeing where the bare shafts group relative to fletched.

Of course this is my opinion, there have been train cars full of critters killed with gear that was nowhere near what most would call "tuned".

If you don't have it this is a good description of the bare shaft tuning process...http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

The Push Pod Cast's Episodes 8 & 9.

Ryan Sanpei offers different ways to tune bows and arrows. 

He's no claim to fame, but as a hunter / gather,,, He's pretty good in that category. 

He learned on his own since there was no one in his area to teach him how to shoot a bow. 

And his trial & era trained him well. 

At least he shares something that works for him, it's up to us to pick & choose what weeds we dive into. 

http://thepushpodcast.libsyn.com/

Don


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Yes, there are many different ways to look at the Mad-ness EK, I'm new to Trad and am always open to new and old ideas. 

Funny that you mentioned the taped off feathers as I thought the same thing. 

There is still drag back there with the tape and all, but at least Ryan is some-what close to getting his results with out cutting & re-gluing feathers. 

Not a perfect system, but it works for him. He explains this on the Pod Cast. 

I have nothing but time on my side to try this since I bow every day. 

I'm sure that 4 hours of my time over the next few weeks won't mix up my days having fun. 

LOL. Don 

Thanks for the different ideas into this mix. 

2 thumbs up bro 

Don


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## Lawman808$ (Jan 30, 2018)

I always use helical I think it helps stabilize the arrow quicker plus it helps with broadheads.


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## Halt (Feb 28, 2018)

I heard somewhere that helical slows the arrows flight, idk if it's true but i use strait.


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Yes, I have 2 sets of arrows I'm testing at the moment, 1 set is Helix'ed, the other is strait. 

So far the strait fletched arrows are grouping better then the helix, but I have many more shoots to go before choosing which ones I like best. 

It seems strange why Ryan would tune his arrows from the back when the majority of folks cut and add different weigth tips at the front. 

Purhaps it is possible to tune from the fetching to. Don't know till I see it with my own eyes. 

Did the archers from the old days tune from the front or rear of the arrows ? 

Maybe the Mid-evil archey folks didn't have a selection of different tips or broad heads to work with.

There is alot of information on the Web on this, at least we get a chance to try different things.

Don


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I like Ryan’s stuff but I’m with Easy on the taping 

Plus your adding weight to the back of the arrow with the tape 

It. Ought be minor but even goongnfro bare shaft to fletched makes a bit of a difference in spine 

Adding weight to the back of an arrow stiffens spine 

I always have a target weight in mind and a defined tip weight 

I start with a full length spine that is slightly weaker than I need and with my chosen head weight which is always 225ish and I cut the shaft till I get them just slightly weak 

I have found than when I add fletching I get my best Brodhead flight 

Also you never over draw in a Hunting situation if anything due to shooting position etc you end up if anything drawing shorter 

If you watch this little video of a final tune on a bow in the end there is a slow motion clip that shows the arrow is flying like a laser beam ....no fish tailing etc right off the bow


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

This fletch thing by Sanpei really isn't tuning anything at all. What it is, is a method for determining the least amount of fletching necessary for overcoming how badly the bow is mistuned.

Follow true tuning procedures as referred to by Easykeeper, as well as here if you're going to go with ILF equipment:

http://bogfimisetrid.is/Setup/TuningForTens.pdf

There is absolutely no "need" alter or refletch arrows as part of tuning the bow.

Watched about the first 5 minutes of the first promo for "The Push." Never could make it past that.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

In this video I’m tuning for a 125 grain point weight with insert on a light bow


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## ghoster808 (Jun 29, 2007)

Joe what’s the #age on that 3D rig?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

That's awesome guys, I knew I'd get the good feed on this, folks like me like to find out what's going on, and stuff that works. 

I couldn't make hide nor hair on what Ryan was really doing with this flething thing as its good to hear what's up. 

2 thumbs up all. 

Don


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ghoster808 said:


> Joe what’s the #age on that 3D rig?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it was around 45 

It’s been switched around now and those limbs are on a different riser and I have a pair of 50 ish pound limbs on the Wf19


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Don_Parsons said:


> That's awesome guys, I knew I'd get the good feed on this, folks like me like to find out what's going on, and stuff that works.
> 
> I couldn't make hide nor hair on what Ryan was really doing with this flething thing as its good to hear what's up.
> 
> ...


Don there is really no wrong or right just what works for different people


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## Smokedinpa (Mar 1, 2015)

Helical for me. 

I actually go through the same tuning process as Joe for the same reasons. Broadheads can change the game.


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the videos JP, I see a simple good aproch to getting things dialed in on the bow with a small selection of arrow spines / tips for the hunting season coming up. 

Find the arrows with spine that best suit the pound-age of limbs weight, then work off of that as a starting point. 

Once I see consistany with the field tips, throw on the broad-heads to confirm that things are working. 

Shoot, shoot, shoot till the fiying packages arrive constantly at the mail box. 

Then go hunting. 

Getting schooled is good in my books. LOL. 

Yes, I'm anything but the target fellow, what I lack in that department I "hope" to make up for in the bush. 

Back to my normal up close and personal, strange encounters of the furry kind. 

Yes, Helical fetchings to drive the tack forward with correction as soon as possible. 

Don 

PS: I agree that there is more then 1 way to skin a cat/ cougar. 

Don


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Helical. Doesn’t matter if it’s my trad or compound.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Don_Parsons said:


> Thanks for the videos JP, I see a simple good aproch to getting things dialed in on the bow with a small selection of arrow spines / tips for the hunting season coming up.
> 
> Find the arrows with spine that best suit the pound-age of limbs weight, then work off of that as a starting point.
> 
> ...


Thx Don 

Many methods work but I’m a stickler for Good arrow flight and my simple way has always worked for me


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