# K50 Class Tournaments



## Durhampro

Does anyone know which 3D tournaments will be offering the new K50 class?


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## Bow bandit

I would think not very many since it breaks the both IBO and 3DI rules about having range finders on an unmarked course. Archery Canada follows the fita or 3DI rules AKA, IBO. The OAA Championships cannot count as a qualifier for the Canadian championships or the 3D worlds in Europe as they are in direct contravention of the international rules. But the good news for you is some clubs offer tournaments that are marked only and they are usually posted in the Oaa directory. I would hope most clubs do not offer this class with unmarked events because it opens the door for cheating and hard to police who is allowed to have a rangefinder on the course. There is room for both types of events but they should be kept separate.


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## wellis1840

Bow bandit said:


> I would think not very many since it breaks the both IBO and 3DI rules about having range finders on an unmarked course. Archery Canada follows the fita or 3DI rules AKA, IBO. The OAA Championships cannot count as a qualifier for the Canadian championships or the 3D worlds in Europe as they are in direct contravention of the international rules. But the good news for you is some clubs offer tournaments that are marked only and they are usually posted in the Oaa directory. I would hope most clubs do not offer this class with unmarked events because it opens the door for cheating and hard to police who is allowed to have a rangefinder on the course. There is room for both types of events but they should be kept separate.


Well said Bow bandit! x 10


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## thunderbolt

Well put, but you mean there isn't any cheating going on now?:mg:


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Personally my take is if you want a marked course then shoot field archery... I was at agm for oaa ... I voted against for the reasons bow bandit stated plus to hard to police courses and set up... marked course should be a seperate course... as the asa does in the usa ...they do it so learn from them seperate course .. but now you have exspense involved... reason given at agm was poorer shooters loose arrows... well then shoot hunter with a 35 yd max till you become compedent to shoot longer distance...duh a no brainer....


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## Bow bandit

They may be, but it is a whole lot easier when people in your group are allowed to have range finding devices. I hope clubs also realize that the cost of a marked tournament also increases at the club level as well, if you are letting everyone find the distance before shooting,the clubs targets are going to take a pretty good beating when the ten ring is getting filled up.


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## GenesisAlpha

Even though I also dissagree with some of the rules that were put into K50, we have never turned away a person with a range finder from a shoot. We are not a qualifier for anything yet but we do support the OAA. I believe more imput should have gone into K50 before it was made even as a temp division. It is supposed to be a cross over from field shoots with known yardage to get those folks back into 3D. So the need to show it is not getting the job done at the next AGM will decide if it continues. So far at two of our 3D shoots no one has asked for it.


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## postman99

i really dont like the idea either but could you not group all the known yardage shooters together so the are all on an even playing field, still no rangefinders but stick an official with each group to tell them the yardage when they get to the target. jmo


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## wellis1840

Interesting GenesisAlpha....the K50 is supposed to be a cross over from field shoots with known yardage to get those folks back into 3D. Like you and those at your shoot, I have never heard a 3D shooter at a tournament ask for marked yardage, nor mention it here on ArcheryTalk as an improvement to a shoot that they have attended. Those K50 supporters at the 2012 OAA AGM certainly over stepped themselves with this. Too bad it was not researched by the OAA asking the Ontario 3D population. The Ontario field shooters might want K50 but I doubt an overwhelming number of 3D shooter would. Would I attend a K50, no, not even slightly interested. Do I know anyone interested in attending a K50, same answer, no, none even slightly interested. Like Ted said "IF YOU WANT A MARKED COURSE THEN SHOOT FIELD ARCHERY"!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Putting an offical with them is a lot of man hours lost.... especially if one judge per group ...that person could be of better use patroling the whole course instead ...or selling hot dogs or making money for the club...3-d is and was started to be a hunting situation...shoot.. lets keep it that way...I did shoot a mark distance shoot but it was an indoor shoot ,and it did spreed things along but they also had a time limit to get your arrows shot ..no exstended bino use ..just quick glance to be able to pick your spot ... and the tournament was a marked distance for everybody no matter what class you shot .....


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## ont.deerhunter

just my opinion but is it not a good atempt at getting more people out to the events. I am definately considering a k50 at grenville as well. The more people the better in my opinion. There are a select few that are going to cheat and from my experience it wont help there scores that much anyway. It doesnt matter if you know the yardage if you still cant put the arrow in the middle.Most groups are made up of friends are way to competetive to share numbers. And as far as cheating what are we all cheating for a medal???? If there is a large purse or possiblity of making a team make it a 2 day event and group people according to scores on the final day I gaurantee the top four are not going to share numbers. I havent shot alot of 3d in the last few years but I could honestly say that if there had been a k50 class at some of the local events I may have done a couple more??????


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## Bow bandit

Is it better to add more classes and increase the cost for the clubs or would it be better to have courses that offer something for everyone. One of the problems that arises frequently is clubs that think setting courses that even the best shooters will have a hard time shooting par on is a good idea. Ya you might reduce their score and save your targets a bit but in my experience the average people that are on the fringe and only choose a few shoots in a year will choose those that have courses that don't try to make you loose arrows. Royal city is one of those clubs, they always get a good turnout because archers shoot some of their best score there and have for years. 

I think we would have been better to regulate what size targets go where like 3DI so people are not shooting turkeys and Mosquitos at 40 yards. Those targets will be difficult even with marked yardage. I find that if you keep the size of the target relative to the distance it makes the tournament more enjoyable. Small targets close say 15 to 25 yards medium targets 25 to 40 and large targets 40 to 50. Would be the best of both worlds.


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## doc2931

It seems the same comments and ideas keep re-appearing on this topic, and the same discussion that has already gone on the OAA Facebook Group page is now appearing here. 

It seems that more clarification is needed for this.

1. The K50 Class is a trial Class, to see if it will increase participation at 3D events. It is a fact that in the past few years participation has been falling and in some cases drastically. The idea was brought up on the FB Group that getting draw prizes would also increase participation. This is a great idea and something that individual clubs can work towards providing but it is not the responsibility of the OAA to provide draw prizes for every shoot. For this reason, the class was put forward at the AGM and was discussed and then voted upon. I was sitting there in the room, and as I remember there were many people that had questions and were unsure but I DO NOT remember anyone putting their hand up when asked for “Anyone Opposed”. I also checked the minutes and there was no record of anyone raising their hand in opposition to this.

2. Cheating again has been talked about a lot on the FB Group, someone who cheats is going to cheat, doesn't matter if there is a known yardage class or not. SO there will be no difference on this. The rules are already in place in regards to this, if shooters choose to disregard these rules there is nothing anyone can do know or unknown. The best way to solve this problem is to always Peer Group, or bust groups up for every shoot. I personally feel that the vast majority of 3D shooters are honest and will shoot by the rules. Anyone that repeatedly goes on about cheating is basically saying that they think people will be dishonest....I believe this to be wrong, and unfair to assume that everyone is going to cheat.

3. I don’t know what the rules for IBO, ASA etc. are in the US or how the tournaments are run. But I do know that many of the events do run Known and Unknown shooters together in the same groups. I will be finding more out about this so I can better answer this in the future and provide exactly what is done down south.

4. There will be no more expense involved with relation to this class for a club, but a good possibility of more shooters which will bring in more revenue. There is possibility of target centers getting used more, but this is no different than the days when there were 20 - 30 Freestyle/Open shooters at events, and if more shooters are shooting then there will more money available to replace centers when needed. Oxford Fish and Game have been running known distance shoots for years and have been enjoying regular large participation levels and haven't had any extra problems related to faster target degradation. The fact is, and many people forget this, just because you know the distance doesn't change the fact that you still have to make a good shot. What is the difference between a shooter who is good at judging distance and hitting 10s and 12s regularly vs. and shooting known distance, they are still hitting the same spot and both still have to make a good shot??

5. The fact that nobody has asked to shoot this class may be for a few different reason. A) It is a new class and not everyone knows about it B) If the class is not advertised at the shoot or offered as a selection then people may assume it is not being offered. C) Because of postings such as this, people may feel ostracised if they chose to shoot K50 because of what other people will say…..not a good thing to be happening at any archery event.

6. There is nothing to say a club couldn't choose to put known distance shooters together, it was not specifically specified in the K50 rules so that clubs had the choice of how they wanted to handle this. Once again on the cheating thing, if a club is really worried about it, then group the known distance shooters together.

7. The rules are not a set in stone situation, if there are any suggestions or modifications that could be made to make the class better then the OAA is more than welcome to looking at them and working with everyone to make this a success.
Again I am really unsure why there are some that are so opposed to this? The rules for the class were developed to be as forgiving as possible for the clubs. What is the harm in trying it? If participation levels increase and clubs make more money at events how is this a bad thing? It will only help the sport.

If anyone has any other comments or ideas related the new K50 class please feel free to contact me at [email protected]

Michael Martin
OAA President


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## Bow bandit

Some may be opposed because they like it they way it is! Attendance is not as bad as some might want you to believe, I was in Sudbury a few weeks ago and they had over 140 archers. 60 or more where in the BHR class. Why is that shoot a success? Maybe because it is fun and the targets are at reasonable distances, who knows. I can tell you that the K50 class is not going to shoot the numbers up like some would have you think. It is also way more complicated than you are letting on, IMHO. Most of the people here are not opposed to marked yardage, they just don't think it belongs on the same field. York has run a marked event for a few years now and it does not draw any more archers than the unmarked events and to be honest most of the people there are the same ones that shoot the unmarked events, so how is this going to increase attendance. There are many factors involved in growing the sport and the K50 might bring a few for a while but I still believe running great events that make all classes fun to shoot will have a greater impact in the long run. 

Please stop with the AGM crap! And you where not there crap! We live in an age with technology now and running a poll on the oaa website to find out what the masses have to say would be way more effective in involving the membership. 

Mike it sounds like you care and you want to make the OAA great so why not use all the resources you have rather than the voice of a few that can make it to the AGM to push their agenda. 

Please read what we are saying and not into what we are saying, some here may have a little insight into the sport they love and yes some comments may seem unproductive but that could be viewed two ways, frustration causes people to do and say uncharacteristic things at times.


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## doc2931

First of all, and to be very clear not once did I say in my response "You were not there" for the AGM. I stated what happened at the AGM where the K50 class was presented and voted on, so we all need to be careful about "reading into" what is being said.

I can't speak for before the AGM as I took on the position at that time. What I can do is collect as much information as I can now to help improve, just as I am doing here and on FB and in any other manner that I can. Anybody who knows me, also knows that I do talk to a lot of people and in many different aspects of the sport from International, National, Provincial and Beginner shooters. So my information is not just limited to "the voice of a few". I have talked to many people about this class (not all target and field shooters) but to many people who are new to archery who love the idea of having a known distance class at the 3D events. They currently do not attend but would like to, but know they are not good at judging distance and are excited about the idea of a class that allows them to be involved and also creates a pathway for shooters to try 3D to progress and become more involved in the unknown distance side. The more gateways of involvement we create the better chance of attaining and retaining shooters in the sport which is in all ways better for archery.

As for listening to what people say and what is being said, that is a great idea. But discussing these things in forums or complaining in private groups at events and clubs does not get this information back to people like myself.

Attendance at some shoots may still be very good, but it is no secret nor is it not known that many shoots do not have the numbers participating that they used to. You brought up Royal City, I have shot it a bunch of times and remember when there were 100 plus shooters at it. The last time I shot, weather was good and there were about 40 ish shooters that attended. This is a great shoot, and I have always enjoyed being there, so having more people actively taking part can only make these shoots even better. What about the Seaway Challenge that is no longer running, from what I understand this is because of a lack of people to take over the running of the shoot and participation was dropping. Maybe if more people were actively shooting, someone would have been willing to take this even on as I have heard many people enjoyed shooting this.

I don't disagree that if clubs hosting events spent more time on their courses, and in the running of tournaments that this would also help bring in more shooters, but why can't both work? and one may help the other. By introducing a different group of shooters to the sport or allowing an avenue that new shooters can get into shooting 3D without the cost of lost equipment will also make people happier and more excited about attending events.

As I have said over and over and over again, this is a trial class, if it doesn't work or the popularity isn't there then it can be removed. But if it should be popular and bring in significantly more shooters to events then what is the problem with that? Clubs will make more money, numbers of archers participating increases and will benefit archery as a whole. So again I ask why are people so opposed to that?

So I say why not give it chance?, rather than slamming it and making it sound like it is no good before it has even started. US events have proven that Known Distance classes and shoots do increase participation and I have seen recently many of the top shooters in the US giving credit to Known Distance Tournaments. SO again why not give it a chance and see what happens? More shooters and more participation in archery will only make things better for all of us.


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## wanemann

durhampro and his little girl are target shooters(as his profile states) looking to possibly attend a 3D shoot.
how did we do at making him, his family, and possibly some friends feel welcome to come out and shoot a tournament ?
just putting it out there...

I am a 3Dr that shoots barebow style, i do not gap or string walk but i can attend any field/target/indoor shoot for the fun and experience of it. 

however should my shooting style required knowledge of distance so i do not loose arrows, have to look for arrows, in other words have fun and gain some more experience, then in addition to field shoots i would have the k50 at a 3d shoot. it makes sense to me to have this as an option for those who wish to participate, why not? as said above cheater will cheat regardless and it has been designed to be next to no inconvience to clubs.


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## GenesisAlpha

I think for the most part we all agree that getting people into the sport and keeping expence down by not losing arrows would be a good thing. As I stated we have never turned a person away with a range finder. But they are told that it is Non Competetive. As far as those new to the sport we tell them to shoot from where they feel competent to shoot from. As stated a miss because of lack of ability to judge yardage is still a miss and will and does show ability level. So lost arrows will still occur reguardless of known or unknown. Now cost to clubs will be an issue for medals and trophies as it would mean extra classes that are as in unknown. There is no way we can hand out anything to just one class for both known and unknown........war would breakout. I agree with Mike that we have to try it and see if it increases the level of participation. If it does we still need to work on the rules. If it does not and a broad section of the clubs offering numbers is taken then it should be gone. I have spoken with Mike on many issues and I will say now we all have the best ear for change in the OAA with his leadership. So I would say give this man a chance have at your ideas by email or if time permits a call. The AGM is where the business of any organization is conducted and where change is set in stone. So even if it is discussed on any media it is voted on there. Change is a hands on system from start to finish.


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## wellis1840

doc2931, wanemann,

Both of you are missing the point of the wants of diehard 3D shooters here is this thread. Bow bandit and Classichunter have brought up valid points against concurrent 3D and K50 tournament that neither of you have addresses.

Sure everyone would like to see more shooters getting involved in archery. You will not get an argument from anyone. But to alter 3D to do this…NO! If the numbers of field and FITA shooters bent on shooting marked 3D are so great then why don’t they put 3D targets next to their target butts in their field courses? Why do dedicated 3D shooter have to have their discipline altered for K50? 

To be fair, I did not see the OAA bring up having unmarked FITA or unmarked Field tournaments to help bring around 3D shooters to ease them into those disciplines! Like that would ever happen…

I don’t want to be on a 3D course and overhear “marked 3d shooters” discussing distance. It would just ruin it. If the OAA wants K50 then make it happen as a separate event and not a joint one.

And as for lost or broken arrows, it is just part of the sport…at least it is for 3D!


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## Bow bandit

wanemann said:


> durhampro and his little girl are target shooters(as his profile states) looking to possibly attend a 3D shoot.
> how did we do at making him, his family, and possibly some friends feel welcome to come out and shoot a tournament ?
> just putting it out there...
> 
> I am a 3Dr that shoots barebow style, i do not gap or string walk but i can attend any field/target/indoor shoot for the fun and experience of it.
> 
> however should my shooting style required knowledge of distance so i do not loose arrows, have to look for arrows, in other words have fun and gain some more experience, then in addition to field shoots i would have the k50 at a 3d shoot. it makes sense to me to have this as an option for those who wish to participate, why not? as said above cheater will cheat regardless and it has been designed to be next to no inconvience to clubs.


I agree losing arrows would suck but it does not take that much practice to get a handle on yardage to a point that you would not miss the target. How is K50 a a beginner class, 50 yards is a little steep for someone new! I could set a K50 class on York property that will still cause new archers to loose arrows. I still think that targets At closer distances for beginners is the way to go, so you learn to judge distance, that is what 3D is! Combining two talents for one great result. If you walk around with a range finder and never actually have to judge a target how is that training you to learn the skill? Yes 3D can be hard if your yardage is a little off but so is any sport if you don't practice! Why is no one trying to make indoor Fita 10 yards instead of 20 so more people can shoot a 300 or 30 x's the rule s of the game are what they are and some people need to realize that the person that puts the most effort forward is always going to win, so changing the rules to suit a few is not going to help the masses or bring people out for very long when they discover there is no substitute to hard work. 

This is why we already have beginner classes like hunter so you can just bring your hunting rig and shoot relatively close targets. Do you really think the target archers out there are going to come out with their X 10's and nanos to risk having them lost or broken on a 3D course? No most will still invest in some other set up for 3D. 

You can keep trying to put bandaids on this but the true solution is great events that are fun to shoot. This applies to both marked and unmarked events.


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## wanemann

@wellis 
just because you believe i don't agree with you points doesn't mean i miss it, I did not debate your or anyone points, i simply stated how we probably didn't make a fellow archer feel welcome. i then stated that i don't think its all that bad of an idea. at the agm i was happy to see someone have and present an idea with thought behind it, it was encouraging to see the oaa listen discuss and try to implement, this shows change is possible welcomed and implemented, i feel we should at a minimum give it a try.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

ok guys as brought up at the oaa agm the main arguement was people lost arrows ... AND I WAS THERE>>> so again if you can`t hit it out too fifty yds now you won`t with a marked course either hate to say it but true...move to the hunter pegs till you can shoot consistantly....again I have shot a marked course for all categories...again asa has done this for years .. it has its own course set up ...and doc 2931 no where do I know of they run marked and unmarked shooters together...I asked one person here before that stated with marked course they had a big number change then I asked how many shooters and they only get 20-25 shooters TOTAL to their shoots..Check previous posts to verify..This is not a put down ...but if we want to incorporate this class then it should be done right ITS THAT SIMPLE... and at the agm the input was not noted or taken as help..it was pre empteted and pre approved ...sorry I run tournaments and educated input was not received at all even when the biggest marked course venue the asa was used as an example did it come to review...I`m not opposed but educated in tournament operation and can see this as a positive venue but has to be DONE RIGHT...as per the seaway challenge they had I think a minimum of 125 shooters and usually 145 shooters ..and I attended all of their shoots or maybe missed one ...it did not shut down because of numbers but volunter problems ...


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## XXX_Shooter

K50 is a great idea for getting people who dont shoot 3-D that much to get out there to experience it. Having it not marked people find it to much of a challenge and dont bother going so they stay home. The K50 will bring more shooters out to shoot it and experience 3-D. Unmarked 3-D seprates the Great guessers from the ok Guessers. I shot 3-D for a few years and know how much time you need to put into the yardage game. Its a GREAT idea and i will be taking advantage of it. See yas at the OAA


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## wellis1840

Now this very confusing, CLASSICHUNTER states in his post “*I was at agm for oaa ... I voted against for the reasons bow bandit stated plus to hard to police courses and set up…*.” Michael Martin, the OAA President, states in his post “For this reason, the class was put forward at the AGM and was discussed and then voted upon. I was sitting there in the room, and as I remember there were many people that had questions and were unsure but *I DO NOT remember anyone putting their hand up when asked for “Anyone Opposed”. I also checked the minutes and there was no record of anyone raising their hand in opposition to this.*”

So either CLASSICHUNTER forgot to vote and forgot that he did not vote now believing he did vote against K50 OR the OAA President was not really paying attention when he scanned the room for opposing votes and the secretary recording the vote did the same OR someone is telling an untruth OR have I misread something here.... 

As for Wanemann’s, reply to my previous thread, I stand corrected. My apologies. But I do not understand Wanemann’s remark about how keeping 3D as it always has been is not making a fellow archer welcome???.


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## Bow bandit

XXX_Shooter said:


> K50 is a great idea for getting people who dont shoot 3-D that much to get out there to experience it. Having it not marked people find it to much of a challenge and dont bother going so they stay home. The K50 will bring more shooters out to shoot it and experience 3-D. Unmarked 3-D seprates the Great guessers from the ok Guessers. I shot 3-D for a few years and know how much time you need to put into the yardage game. Its a GREAT idea and i will be taking advantage of it. See yas at the OAA


You sir are incorrect judging yardage is a skill and not just guessing! Would you like little orange dots to shoot as well? So you can come play? It may be a great idea but not with traditional 3D! It's also suppose to be a beginner devision so how are others going to feel when they come out to play against you! Pretty sure that will end the attendance in that class fast. Just saying! And no I won't see ya there!


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## tmorelli

Just an outsider offering some clarification....

ASA puts K50 and Open Pro, Senior Pro and Women's Pro on the same ranges at the same time. K50 is not on a separate range. I'm not aware of any issues that have risen from this. 

Our qualifiers and state shoots simply group known distance class shooters together. We shoot the same ranges as unknown distance shooters.... also at the same time and again, I've never heard of any issues. 


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Wiz w/a Sceptre

I guess this means you are not showing

f$&@{}#%g eh that's the best news I've heard all week



Bow bandit said:


> You sir are incorrect judging yardage is a skill and not just guessing! Would you like little orange dots to shoot as well? So you can come play? It may be a great idea but not with traditional 3D! It's also suppose to be a beginner devision so how are others going to feel when they come out to play against you! Pretty sure that will end the attendance in that class fast. Just saying! And no I won't see ya there!


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## Bow bandit

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> I guess this means you are not showing
> 
> f$&@{}#%g eh that's the best news I've heard all week


No they will be on the kiddie course! What I mean is that I will be setting the course for the known 50 at York. Good luck everyone 

Hey Wiz, you know the bad part in all of this I don't even know who you are! I could not point you out in a crowd, have we ever met anywhere because you seem to know me? Oh well! It is going to be funny to whatch Perkins, Fagan and trillus fight it out for top spot in the beginner class. Sorry folks, I hope none of the new comers thought they had a shot at the new K 50. Now that's funny right there I don't care who you are


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## Bow bandit

tmorelli said:


> Just an outsider offering some clarification....
> 
> ASA puts K50 and Open Pro, Senior Pro and Women's Pro on the same ranges at the same time. K50 is not on a separate range. I'm not aware of any issues that have risen from this.
> 
> Our qualifiers and state shoots simply group known distance class shooters together. We shoot the same ranges as unknown distance shooters.... also at the same time and again, I've never heard of any issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Except the guy with the range finder in his binos  we don't use ASA rules up here.


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## FiFi

tmorelli said:


> Just an outsider offering some clarification....
> 
> ASA puts K50 and Open Pro, Senior Pro and Women's Pro on the same ranges at the same time. K50 is not on a separate range. I'm not aware of any issues that have risen from this.
> 
> Our qualifiers and state shoots simply group known distance class shooters together. We shoot the same ranges as unknown distance shooters.... also at the same time and again, I've never heard of any issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



It would seem for some this is something that would cause great difficulty to do, I will be coming with my xbow to play in the K50, my goal is to trash as many of Chris's nano's as possible haha

Sean


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## tmorelli

Bow bandit said:


> Except the guy with the range finder in his binos  we don't use ASA rules up here.


That wasn't on the range with known distance shooters of any kind. Actually, I've never heard of any cheating in the known distance game. 


I understand that you don't use ASA rules but they've been referred to several times in the thread so I thought I'd offer some clarity of how known/unknown have been made to work together successfully.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Bow bandit

Hey wiz!


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## XXX_Shooter

Bow bandit said:


> You sir are incorrect judging yardage is a skill and not just guessing! Would you like little orange dots to shoot as well? So you can come play? It may be a great idea but not with traditional 3D! It's also suppose to be a beginner devision so how are others going to feel when they come out to play against you! Pretty sure that will end the attendance in that class fast. Just saying! And no I won't see ya there!


Your not 100% bang on, on every yardage you shoot the target for. Therefore you are guessing how far it is. Yardage is something you work on and eventually get good at it. I shot 3-D for a few years i understand the game. As for the Orange dots, last time i shot Orange dots and marked yardage made me lots of $$$$.... Plus i dont need Orange dots and a range finder to keep up most in Ontario, or in Canada. And if the beginners are coming out to win and thats it then they might better stay at home and shoot there deer targets to get ready for deer season.


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## Bow bandit

tmorelli said:


> That wasn't on the range with known distance shooters of any kind. Actually, I've never heard of any cheating in the known distance game.
> 
> 
> I understand that you don't use ASA rules but they've been referred to several times in the thread so I thought I'd offer some clarity of how known/unknown have been made to work together successfully.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


No worries just a big difference up here, ASA has like 1200 archers at an event and we have 100 they are just trying to get one or two more people out


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## XXX_Shooter

FiFi said:


> It would seem for some this is something that would cause great difficulty to do, I will be coming with my xbow to play in the K50, my goal is to trash as many of Chris's nano's as possible haha
> 
> Sean


Bring it on Sean.... LOL ill make sure i have the Bulldog collars on.... LOL.. Ill be shooting for the ASA 14 ring... OH SORRY we dont USE ASA here... My bad


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## Bow bandit

XXX_Shooter said:


> Your not 100% bang on, on every yardage you shoot the target for. Therefore you are guessing how far it is. Yardage is something you work on and eventually get good at it. I shot 3-D for a few years i understand the game. As for the Orange dots, last time i shot Orange dots and marked yardage made me lots of $$$$.... Plus i dont need Orange dots and a range finder to keep up most in Ontario, or in Canada. And if the beginners are coming out to win and thats it then they might better stay at home and shoot there deer targets to get ready for deer season.


With all of that talent and 3D experience some one think you would shoot open and unmarked since it too would be an easy win for you. Like Levi Morgan said in Louisville this year " unmarked 3D is the ultimate form of archery period" I can post the video if you would like and he make s'more money than anyone right now I would have to say. So if I where you I would start shooting some more 3D since you seem to have the time to practice. Less likely someone catches a few lucky tens and put you out in the elimination rounds. More money in your pocket.


----------



## XXX_Shooter

Bow bandit said:


> With all of that talent and 3D experience some one think you would shoot open and unmarked since it too would be an easy win for you. Like Levi Morgan said in Louisville this year " unmarked 3D is the ultimate form of archery period" I can post the video if you would like and he make s'more money than anyone right now I would have to say. So if I where you I would start shooting some more 3D since you seem to have the time to practice. Less likely someone catches a few lucky tens and put you out in the elimination rounds. More money in your pocket.


You dont need to post the video as i was sitting beside him in the same decussion about 3-D and marked/ unmarked yardage. As for the money making, thats all he does!!! With USA stamped on his back he has no worries in the world other than shooting arrows into a foam animal, and i doubt he worries there. Anything shot in Ontario/ Canada means nothing, weather its Target, Field, and 3-D. Its ASA, IBO, and Worlds is when stuff starts to mean something. Target archery is the ULTIMATE FORM in archery, Target archery makes you a BETTER shooter. And as for the indoor game and being out when you miss, hey thats the name of the game.


----------



## Durhampro

I didn't mean to stir up such a huge hornet's nest by asking about the new trial format for 3D. My daughter and I shoot targets, so we don't have any interest in guessing distances but we would shoot 3D tournaments for fun and a nice walk in the woods. My daughter and I are members of YCB and are well known at the club. 

It's unfortunate one might receive any negative reception when seeking a fun day of shooting.


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## Bow bandit

XXX_Shooter said:


> You dont need to post the video as i was sitting beside him in the same decussion about 3-D and marked/ unmarked yardage. As for the money making, thats all he does!!! With USA stamped on his back he has no worries in the world other than shooting arrows into a foam animal, and i doubt he worries there. Anything shot in Ontario/ Canada means nothing, weather its Target, Field, and 3-D. Its ASA, IBO, and Worlds is when stuff starts to mean something. Target archery is the ULTIMATE FORM in archery, Target archery makes you a BETTER shooter. And as for the indoor game and being out when you miss, hey thats the name of the game.


Yup Levi is amazing. Sorry I did not know you had a job working 40 hours a week, must be hard to practice. I did not see you in the video but I will watch it again because it is fun to watch. Sorry Levi say 3d is the ultimate form of archery and he has more wins so I believe him


----------



## XXX_Shooter

Not hard to practice when you have a 25 yard indoor range at the house. I still get my practice in no worries there. He has more wins cuz hes been shooting for probably 10 years longer then me. And has been doing it full time for however long. The guy can shoot yep. Put him on a fita field and see what he can do there?


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## CLASSICHUNTER

well boys we have hashed this one out again...As far as we know it s only going to be at the provincials for this year so lets get a true figure of how many registered in this class...And as it was at the known yardage tournament I went to and Chris and dan and all the top shooters used THEIR OWN RANGE FINDERS to shoot as some of the yardage was off of what was printed for you to shoot...go figure ....and is it any equipement can shoot in this class ...if so the beginner does not have the upper end moveable sights and such ..so the beginners are then wasting their time.. correct me if I am wrong and if there are different equipement categories let us all know ...


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER

so as some one stated here in the known distance in asa they group all kinds together on the same course.. how then do they mark the distance or is it done with their own range finder or is it posted ?????


----------



## Bow bandit

XXX_Shooter said:


> Not hard to practice when you have a 25 yard indoor range at the house. I still get my practice in no worries there. He has more wins cuz hes been shooting for probably 10 years longer then me. And has been doing it full time for however long. The guy can shoot yep. Put him on a fita field and see what he can do there?


I am pretty sure he would hold his own! But I don't think he would be interested because the cost Is far greater than what you get in return. He can drive to most of the events he shoots and makes money every time out. You could do the same since he would be easy for you to beat. 10 major 3 D events in one year would be well over 100 grand and you would not have 5000 dollar visits to Europe on your own dime. Food for thought?


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## ont.deerhunter

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> so as some one stated here in the known distance in asa they group all kinds together on the same course.. how then do they mark the distance or is it done with their own range finder or is it posted ?????


I am pretty sure you would get a card with the yardages marked on it


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## joshwebb

Ok, I have a couple thoughts here!
1- if this k50 is supposed to bring new shooters in, make a beginner class! Don't expect the people shooting a 3pin hunter setup to compete with a $3000+ open class setup!

2- most target shooters I know aren't interested in shooting nanos at half way blown out targets and destroying their arrows! Also, there isn't much appeal to them to shoot 40 arrows! They would rather shoot 100s in one match!

3- all this *****ing back and forth does not make us seem like a fun bunch of guys to shoot with, so why would a new shooter want to come out and play! 

4- there will be cheating in 3d no matter what! Just go out and shoot YOUR best!!

5- to answer the original question, most clubs will happily allow people to use their rangefinders! If there are enough people to make a class, do it! 

I just enjoy shooting my bows! 3d, field, and maybe this year I will try out this fita thing too! Let's all just have some fun!

Josh


----------



## mprus

joshwebb said:


> Ok, I have a couple thoughts here!
> 1- if this k50 is supposed to bring new shooters in, make a beginner class! Don't expect the people shooting a 3pin hunter setup to compete with a $3000+ open class setup!
> 
> 2- most target shooters I know aren't interested in shooting nanos at half way blown out targets and destroying their arrows! Also, there isn't much appeal to them to shoot 40 arrows! They would rather shoot 100s in one match!
> 
> 3- all this *****ing back and forth does not make us seem like a fun bunch of guys to shoot with, so why would a new shooter want to come out and play!
> 
> 4- there will be cheating in 3d no matter what! Just go out and shoot YOUR best!!
> 
> 5- to answer the original question, most clubs will happily allow people to use their rangefinders! If there are enough people to make a class, do it!
> 
> I just enjoy shooting my bows! 3d, field, and maybe this year I will try out this fita thing too! Let's all just have some fun!
> 
> Josh


Bickering is all I seem to notice from compound archers. For some reason, traditional archers don't seem to be like that (with one or two exceptions)...not sure why but it seems to be a fact! So perhaps we can now bicker about compound vs traditional archery?


----------



## cath8r

K50 is a great class tgat is working for the asa. The problem with 3d in general is too many classes. Really only need 4 classes. Also bowhunting class should be relgated to hunting rigs minus the broadheads. As for Levi, he would top 10 in any venue. He won Redding and did great in vegas. He'd do well in fita and field if he tried it.


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## Wiz w/a Sceptre

LOL 
did your preschool teacher help you with this.

You know Blake, I'm sure you are a good guy i have a lot of fun with you - how can one not

But you know, most people who fall out of a boat hit water. You on the other hand - well not so lucky i guess

It like Linda Ronstadts song "Blue Bayou" - you just keep swinging and missin (figuratively of course)

My opinion, I dislike 3D because I hate to guess yardage and shoot just one arrow at a target. I'm to old to play a guessing game - I just want the facts (that comes with maturity)
I haven't shot 3D in years, the last provincials I shot lasted one day and then i went and sat by the lake 
This marked 3D maybe what gets me back into it, although the jury is still out, but it could be fun - lots of fun .
I will quite honestly support the venue because people are honestly trying - I give them credit and I hope it catches on like wildfire and reinvigorates the sport, it would be nice to see. 

And 3D in its current form is just that - a guessing game, doesn't prove who is the best archer but simply the best judger of yardage.
Most people like to come and shoot their bows. I bet if you took everyones bow away at start time and handed them a piece a paper and told them to go around and judge the targets and the closest estimator wins - no one would be very happy or want to play. Well that is what 3D is like in its current state. At least marked yardage levels the playing field - think about it.
And me, I can't hold a stick to the likes of Perkins, Fagan, Trillus or Voorn - but I sure as hell like to watch them shoot the scores they do. I'm pretty envious of that.
You on the other hand just want to live in your bubble, and I'm ok with that - I like to poke fun at people like you - its just FUN

Now if you are not shooting the provincials because they are having a marked yardage class - that is your business, i understand your viewpoint. 
Now, my garbage pickup day has moved to saturday, I think that would be a great service you could offer - i will sponsor you (just pokin fun)

Bye







Bow bandit said:


> Hey wiz!


----------



## XXX_Shooter

cath8r said:


> K50 is a great class tgat is working for the asa. The problem with 3d in general is too many classes. Really only need 4 classes. Also bowhunting class should be relgated to hunting rigs minus the broadheads. As for Levi, he would top 10 in any venue. He won Redding and did great in vegas. He'd do well in fita and field if he tried it.


Your are correct about the 4 classes and that should be it. The K50 is a great idea. And for the people who are whinning about it. No one said you need to shoot in it? its just another class its not saying YOU MUST shoot it. So really i dont see what the issue is with having another class thats marked instead of unmarked. As for Levi he placed 12th last year in Redding, Im not 100% sure if he has won Redding yet but i have not seen the champions list so i could be wrong.


----------



## Bow bandit

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> LOL
> did your preschool teacher help you with this.
> 
> You know Blake, I'm sure you are a good guy i have a lot of fun with you - how can one not
> 
> But you know, most people who fall out of a boat hit water. You on the other hand - well not so lucky i guess
> 
> It like Linda Ronstadts song "Blue Bayou" - you just keep swinging and missin (figuratively of course)
> 
> My opinion, I dislike 3D because I hate to guess yardage and shoot just one arrow at a target. I'm to old to play a guessing game - I just want the facts (that comes with maturity)
> I haven't shot 3D in years, the last provincials I shot lasted one day and then i went and sat by the lake
> This marked 3D maybe what gets me back into it, although the jury is still out, but it could be fun - lots of fun .
> I will quite honestly support the venue because people are honestly trying - I give them credit and I hope it catches on like wildfire and reinvigorates the sport, it would be nice to see.
> 
> And 3D in its current form is just that - a guessing game, doesn't prove who is the best archer but simply the best judger of yardage.
> Most people like to come and shoot their bows. I bet if you took everyones bow away at start time and handed them a piece a paper and told them to go around and judge the targets and the closest estimator wins - no one would be very happy or want to play. Well that is what 3D is like in its current state. At least marked yardage levels the playing field - think about it.
> And me, I can't hold a stick to the likes of Perkins, Fagan, Trillus or Voorn - but I sure as hell like to watch them shoot the scores they do. I'm pretty envious of that.
> You on the other hand just want to live in your bubble, and I'm ok with that - I like to poke fun at people like you - its just FUN
> 
> Now if you are not shooting the provincials because they are having a marked yardage class - that is your business, i understand your viewpoint.
> Now, my garbage pickup day has moved to saturday, I think that would be a great service you could offer - i will sponsor you (just pokin fun)
> 
> Bye


So you would like to see one skill in archery lost to fill the egos of a few who can't stand to lose to someone that takes the time to practice both skills, yes judging yardage is a skill! Sorry if you don't agree but trust me it is a learned skill. 

People should embrace the challenge because it levels the playing field. Take a guy like Perkins who can shoot a dot very well and another archer who can judge decent and hit the middle 90% of the time, he has a shot at beating a guy like Perkins. People need to understand that this is a game and these are the rules! Play by them or don't play! Don't try to change the rules because your ego can't stand to lose to another archer that practices both disciplines. 

I would love to shoot 300 30x every time out but I have limits to how much I can practice, do you see me trying to change the game to 10 yards max so I can play too! No I shoot according to the rules in play on that day. 

Yes judging can be hard, but it can also be learned. Clubs could set targets closer and judging is not so crucial then. 

I am not against marked 3D, I just don't believe it belongs with unmarked because they are two different games. 

How is the k50 a Beginner class with those who have stated they are going to shoot it. Marked events should be all inclusive to represent all classes so someone coming to try a shoot can be slotted into the proper equipment class. How much fun are they gonna have getting spanked by pros! 

I want to make the sport grow as much as anyone but I don't want to lose what the sport is now! I have invested a lot of time to it and if someone obviously as dumb as me can learn to judge yardage anyone can. 

Sorry I can't believe what I was thinking, how could anyone like me with 12 years of shooting all types of archery and mostly 3d have any idea what I was talking about, my bad!

Everyone knows the rules going in so don't play if you can't keep up! There are many types of marked events don't try to ruin the one that many archers love.


----------



## Wiz w/a Sceptre

How are we ruining your sport ? I get it if they clumped the guessing against the rangefinders - distinct advantage to the rangefinders, because they are not guessing. But they are not, it is a seperate class.

So you think two archers of equal skill sets should declare one or the other the better archer based on a guessing game - all things being equal. We may as well play paper, scissors, rock at the stake then.

Because you invested alot of time judging distance and someone such as me invests little or no time - this should preclude me or anyone else who does not desire to learn judging/guessing from going to shoots and having fun. 

"I'm going back someday
Come what may
To Blue Bayou
Where the folks are fine 
And the world is mine
On Blue Bayou"
Swing and a Miss - Again, sorry I was digressing, back to facts.

Well thats like saying you should pay my tax rate then at your salary - how about it, or i can pay your tax at my salary - Oh happy days for me

Blake, I see your viewpoint, but your arguments don't hold up. 

You should not call oneself dumb ( in the third party ), it only lessens ones selfworth.


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## x-quizit

K50 or not, people already discuss yardage, use range finders, and try many other tricks to gain that 1 extra point over the next guy.

Putting targets closer vs maxing out the yardage, easier vs. harder, not everyone is going to be happy at every event. There will always be someone that has to voice their opinion. If more people had an open mind and actually listened to what the participants have to say at their own shoots, rather then try to find the quickest argument, smaller hurdles could be overcome. Don't take absolutely everything that is said to heart, but actually listen from the competitor's point of view and if what they said makes sense, try it. 

The only issue I have with the K50 is the fact that it is not equipment specific. To tell a barebow shooter or a very small child that to shoot in a known yardage class, they must compete in the K50 is not fair to them. I could care less if I have to shoot against a "Pro". Honestly, sign me up in their group because I like to listen, watch and learn from them, and my scores always seem to go up after a day with them because I am inspired to try that little bit harder.

Like some have said previously, this is a trial run. If people don't want to participate in the class, DON'T. At the next AGM, people can voice their opinions, make suggestions and things can always be changed again. All of the other classes are still offered so compete in the class that best suits your ability, equipment and makes the day fun!!!!

Just my 2 cents
Daniela


----------



## Bow bandit

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> How are we ruining your sport ? I get it if they clumped the guessing against the rangefinders - distinct advantage to the rangefinders, because they are not guessing. But they are not, it is a seperate class.
> 
> So you think two archers of equal skill sets should declare one or the other the better archer based on a guessing game - all things being equal. We may as well play paper, scissors, rock at the stake then.
> 
> Because you invested alot of time judging distance and someone such as me invests little or no time - this should preclude me or anyone else who does not desire to learn judging/guessing from going to shoots and having fun.
> 
> "I'm going back someday
> Come what may
> To Blue Bayou
> Where the folks are fine
> And the world is mine
> On Blue Bayou"
> Swing and a Miss - Again, sorry I was digressing, back to facts.
> 
> Well thats like saying you should pay my tax rate then at your salary - how about it, or i can pay your tax at my salary - Oh happy days for me
> 
> Blake, I see your viewpoint, but your arguments don't hold up.
> 
> You should not call oneself dumb ( in the third party ), it only lessens ones selfworth.


You are missing my point! It's a game and those are the rules, so play by them. Like I said there are many types of marked events where archers can showcase their supreme accuracy so go to those. 

I must be one heck of a good guesser then! Because I have a pretty good average going. Funny I can't seem to guess the lottery numbers. 

Have fun shooting paper, why change the game because some have limited talent? Seems counterproductive. 

My arguments are valid to those who partake in unmarked 3D and understand it. Which most on here can't say because if they can't win they don't play, they just change the rules. 

Again wiz you don't read everything I say, you are only choosing small parts to spin it it the wrong direction. 

It's funny how the top 3D guys have no problem competing and winning target events! But the target guys who are obviously the superior archers can't grasp a simple task like judging yardage. 

This is obviously a stale mate and those who know anything about 3D know where I am coming from, I am bored now and need to go shoot my bow, because there is no substitute for practice not even changing the rules!


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## shakyshot

I like shooting 3D.
The constant pissing and moaning about it is why I don't shoot it.
As Josh said.Go shoot YOUR best.
Nevermind what everyone else is doing.
Plainly,Grow up and worry about your own damn selves.

Shawn


----------



## XXX_Shooter

Bow bandit said:


> You are missing my point! It's a game and those are the rules, so play by them. Like I said there are many types of marked events where archers can showcase their supreme accuracy so go to those.
> 
> I must be one heck of a good guesser then! Because I have a pretty good average going. Funny I can't seem to guess the lottery numbers.
> 
> Have fun shooting paper, why change the game because some have limited talent? Seems counterproductive.
> 
> My arguments are valid to those who partake in unmarked 3D and understand it. Which most on here can't say because if they can't win they don't play, they just change the rules.
> 
> Again wiz you don't read everything I say, you are only choosing small parts to spin it it the wrong direction.
> 
> It's funny how the top 3D guys have no problem competing and winning target events! But the target guys who are obviously the superior archers can't grasp a simple task like judging yardage.
> 
> This is obviously a stale mate and those who know anything about 3D know where I am coming from, I am bored now and need to go shoot my bow, because there is no substitute for practice not even changing the rules!


I have no issue standing at a stake judging yardage, or in my case guessing. Hec i could probably keep up with most of the top 3-D shooters in Ontario/ Canada, and i havent shot the game in 3 going on 4 years. But why would i waste my time practicing and judging targets when all im going to shoot is ONE 3-D in the whole year, OAA's. Honestly i could care less if im an outsider to the 3-D gang or group or whatever yas want to call yourselves, im there to shoot and have fun. Hec i might even enter the BHO


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## moosemeat

and the question was,what tournaments are offering the k50,thanks for all the imfo on the good or the bad.good points were made on both sides of the topic.i myself not being a tournament shooter but looking forward to going to a few this year, and i wont be using a range finder but there are lots of hunters wanting to get envolved that using a range finder has been part of there routine for years(me one of them)it was past to give it a go ,so give it a go!.you will get newbies envolved and inexperienced archers getting out there to try there skills and most i would think after experiencing this type of competetion will learn to leave the range finder at home.its a small step in building the future of our fine sport.how many people do you know getting into archery event have a range finder.


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## Durhampro

Well said Doug.


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## araz2114

Elmira Rod and Gun will be running the K-50 class along side with the other classes at all our 3D tournaments.

May 12
July 28
September 22

Bring your rangefinder and have some fun.

Chris


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## Durhampro

Thank You Chris for answering my original question.

Cheers
Robin


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## FiFi

All Lambton-Kent Archers shoots are rangefinder welcome for all classes


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## stjoebowhunter

Its really quite simple people, 3d is about estimating yardage and shooting skills thats the game!!! Theres other forms of archery that are known distances go shoot those if you don't want to estimate yardage on a target. Everyone likes different things I get that, to me knowing the yardage and just shooting all the time is not fun. To go to a 3d shoot and be put in a group with a guy using a range finder takes away from the game. The fact is that there is already cheating out there and having range finders on the course will just take that to another level! There are already marked 3d shoots out there, if thats what your looking for go to one but having a marked and unmarked on the same course and maybe even in the same group is not cool!!


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## cc46

Can I ask a couple of newbie questions?

1) Do you only shoot 40 shots in a day at a 3D shoot? If so is it 40 different animal targets in 40 different settings?
2) When hunting in a tree stand, do you use a range finder to different spots in front of you? Do you practice a few times to those spots before you hunt?

Thanks


----------



## wellis1840

Answers from a 3D tournament shooter for cc46's questions above:

1) Depending on the size of the club you can shoot 30 to 40 targets during a 3D tournament. It might half those numbers of targets shot twice or that number shot once.

2) Your tree stand question is a hunting question not one pertaining to 3D Archery/tournaments. As I am not a hunter I cannot answer it. Maybe there is a bow hunter here that might be interested in answering that for you.

......wow a newbie with 1,162 posts! Good on you cc46.


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## cc46

Thanks wellis, so only 1 arrow per animal then right? unless you do the trail twice...


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## cheaplaughs

It's warming up. Lets get out and shoot. We can discuss this next year.


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## JDoupe

cc46,

1 arrow per target. Much like mini putt....but there is only one shot at the hole. 

Then you move down the trail to the next shooting lane and size up the next target. Regardless of what it seems like on here.....it is a lot of fun and the people you shoot with are an absolute blast.

Most are willing to help the beginners out with hints and tips as to how best to Judge distance.

3D makes me Happy, happy happy!...and at the same time makes me pull my hair out trying to do better!!!!


----------



## XTRMN8R

cc46 said:


> Can I ask a couple of newbie questions?
> 
> 1) Do you only shoot 40 shots in a day at a 3D shoot? If so is it 40 different animal targets in 40 different settings?
> 2) When hunting in a tree stand, do you use a range finder to different spots in front of you? Do you practice a few times to those spots before you hunt?
> 
> Thanks


I have never used a range finder on an animal before shooting it, I did however use a range finder on a deer trail before shooting the buck that walked down it.
Every animal I have shot with my bow has been 30y or less except One.

many of the club shoots in the States are only 30 targets, some clubs here shoot the same 20 twice.

Please stay tuned to this channel for a message from our sonsors


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## XTRMN8R

hey Wiz, this is so you can come out and shoot all 40


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## araz2114

Durhampro said:


> Thank You Chris for answering my original question.
> 
> Cheers
> Robin


_D

Glad we could answer your question... hehehe. 

Come on out and have fun... that's why we shoot archery. 

I understand both arguments on this subject. And as Mike M has stated... It doesn't hurt to try it. I have shot a ton of 3-D in the past... So has Wiz, FiFi, Sean, and a big bunch. My time and money goes into Field now as I feel since the rule change from 280FPS max to 5 gr per lb I no longer can compete at the level I want to in 3-D... because of my short draw length. No biggie. I will shoot something else. The only 3-D I have shot in the last little while has been Oxford Fish and Game. I use my range finder and have a good day. I look at like golf... I want to shoot and hang our with some buddies... I don't expect anything except a cold drink and some lunch out of it. 

Live long and prosper...


----------



## Stash

I haven't followed all this too closely, but can anyone explain why we don't simply put rangefinder users and non-rangefinder users in different groups? No cheating, no accidentally overhearing distance discussion.


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## XXX_Shooter

Stash said:


> I haven't followed all this too closely, but can anyone explain why we don't simply put rangefinder users and non-rangefinder users in different groups? No cheating, no accidentally overhearing distance discussion.


That's what has been said but the guys that are 100% against the rangefinder deal seem to be missing the point. K50 shooters as put in a different group then the non K50 shooters.


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## Big F

I’d like to clear a few things up as I was asked by numerous people to look at this thread. I would like to apologize as this is not answering the original question of this thread, but addressing other things misunderstood. 

Fact: K50 is meant to be a FUN class to get more archers to the OAA 3D event.

K50 was designed for beginners, hunters and archers from other venues that want to have FUN, shoot/try 3D, and support the OAA. It was not designed to ‘trump’ and/or ‘take over’ unknown distance 3D classes.

The idea of a new archer shooting in a ‘new person’ division at 25 yards or less is NOT fun for someone within the ages of 14-70 years of age. New archers want to shoot with their friends and companions, while not feeling alienated ... and not having to worry about losing all the arrows in their quiver. 

Shooting in the unknown ‘hunter’ division (35-40 yrd max) still runs the risk of losing/breaking arrows. I have witnessed new archers multiple times leave completely defeated, embarrassed and ready to give up the sport from one half of a 3D tournament course. An example: the OAA 3D’s at Restoule years ago (a beautiful course) an archer lost all 9 arrows they arrived with in their quiver. This person left before the first day of the two day event was done...this person made the trip from the Toronto area (4ish hour drive)...I never saw this person at a 3D event in the years following. 

Nothing in OAA 3D has changed that was already in place... we are simply including a small addition of two FUN classes. 

*Believe it or not ... not everyone goes to a 3D event to win a medal. Alot of archers participate because they enjoy the sport, want to improve their ability in archery, and enjoy the social aspect. I can honestly say while competing in events throughout Ontario I am there 80% for the social aspect and 20% for competition. As Chris Perkins (current target world champion) stated ... events within the boarders of this country mean very little from a large scale/international archery stand point. The OAA 3D championships is not ‘the show’ by any means ... it is a FUN weekend. 

Fact: Medals given out at the OAA 3D event are provided by the OAA ... not the club. They run at approximately 4 dollars or so each. My entrance fee for the tournament alone will cover the cost for both Male and Female K50 medals. 

As discussed at the OAA AGM, the goal of the male and female K50 class is to get 10 or more archers out to the OAA 3D tournament. If we can get this...it will be a success. Who knows...maybe we’ll get more. If 2-3 people show up to shoot it...it will likely not continue into the future. I can nearly guarantee... archers will be present at the OAA 3D event who would NOT have been present if the K50 was not brought in. 

Stated in this thread a couple of times ... a large archery organization such as the ASA (arguably the most organized 3d organization out there) has not had a problem having both known and unknown archers on the course together. If they can do it ... I’m sure it’ll work for us. 

Fact: K50 (Known 50 yards) is not a ‘Marked Yardage’ class. There will be not sheets/handouts with yardages provided. This is a rangefinder class...as the OAA president stated ‘no additional setup is required for the entrance of this class’. 

Another interesting thing brought up within this thread is the idea that the OAA follows both 3Di (i=international/3D FITA) and IBO rules...suggesting these two external organizations have the same rules as one another. The funny thing is there are many differences between the rules, regulations, scoring, course layouts, targets used/sized based on distance, and classes provided when you compare 3Di and IBO.

Fact: No one at the OAA meeting voted against the K50 class. Nothing was pre-meditated before the meeting. A proposed motion was submitted months in advance of the meeting....a presentation was made stating the K50 class idea/motion at the meeting...a discussion took place....the K50 class was voted in (everyone who voted in the room was FOR...no one voted against)...a committee was formed to write up the class. We now have a class.

All the feedback following the vote, and the meeting was very positive...archers were/and are excited about something new for OAA 3D.

Anyone who has been around archery for a while (myself 20 years) knows it is nearly impossible to make all archers happy. The clubs and the OAA do the best they can as volunteers. 

An important point to re-emphasize is: nothing that was in place has changed within OAA 3D. There is only a small addition...and it can’t hurt numbers. Let’s wait and see what happens with the K50 this summer. 

Hopefully it warms up soon so we can all get outside shooting and off our computers!

Andrew


----------



## Wiz w/a Sceptre

Lol
That is funny
But I find it quite offensive, especially if I was a woman
Goes to show you there needs to be class distinction in archery and socially
You prove yourself to be quite a boor
Guess that's why I'm in a different class than you


----------



## Bow bandit

Big F said:


> I’d like to clear a few things up as I was asked by numerous people to look at this thread. I would like to apologize as this is not answering the original question of this thread, but addressing other things misunderstood.
> 
> Fact: K50 is meant to be a FUN class to get more archers to the OAA 3D event.
> 
> K50 was designed for beginners, hunters and archers from other venues that want to have FUN, shoot/try 3D, and support the OAA. It was not designed to ‘trump’ and/or ‘take over’ unknown distance 3D classes.
> 
> The idea of a new archer shooting in a ‘new person’ division at 25 yards or less is NOT fun for someone within the ages of 14-70 years of age. New archers want to shoot with their friends and companions, while not feeling alienated ... and not having to worry about losing all the arrows in their quiver.
> 
> Shooting in the unknown ‘hunter’ division (35-40 yrd max) still runs the risk of losing/breaking arrows. I have witnessed new archers multiple times leave completely defeated, embarrassed and ready to give up the sport from one half of a 3D tournament course. An example: the OAA 3D’s at Restoule years ago (a beautiful course) an archer lost all 9 arrows they arrived with in their quiver. This person left before the first day of the two day event was done...this person made the trip from the Toronto area (4ish hour drive)...I never saw this person at a 3D event in the years following.
> 
> Nothing in OAA 3D has changed that was already in place... we are simply including a small addition of two FUN classes.
> 
> *Believe it or not ... not everyone goes to a 3D event to win a medal. Alot of archers participate because they enjoy the sport, want to improve their ability in archery, and enjoy the social aspect. I can honestly say while competing in events throughout Ontario I am there 80% for the social aspect and 20% for competition. As Chris Perkins (current target world champion) stated ... events within the boarders of this country mean very little from a large scale/international archery stand point. The OAA 3D championships is not ‘the show’ by any means ... it is a FUN weekend.
> 
> Fact: Medals given out at the OAA 3D event are provided by the OAA ... not the club. They run at approximately 4 dollars or so each. My entrance fee for the tournament alone will cover the cost for both Male and Female K50 medals.
> 
> As discussed at the OAA AGM, the goal of the male and female K50 class is to get 10 or more archers out to the OAA 3D tournament. If we can get this...it will be a success. Who knows...maybe we’ll get more. If 2-3 people show up to shoot it...it will likely not continue into the future. I can nearly guarantee... archers will be present at the OAA 3D event who would NOT have been present if the K50 was not brought in.
> 
> Stated in this thread a couple of times ... a large archery organization such as the ASA (arguably the most organized 3d organization out there) has not had a problem having both known and unknown archers on the course together. If they can do it ... I’m sure it’ll work for us.
> 
> Fact: K50 (Known 50 yards) is not a ‘Marked Yardage’ class. There will be not sheets/handouts with yardages provided. This is a rangefinder class...as the OAA president stated ‘no additional setup is required for the entrance of this class’.
> 
> Another interesting thing brought up within this thread is the idea that the OAA follows both 3Di (i=international/3D FITA) and IBO rules...suggesting these two external organizations have the same rules as one another. The funny thing is there are many differences between the rules, regulations, scoring, course layouts, targets used/sized based on distance, and classes provided when you compare 3Di and IBO.
> 
> Fact: No one at the OAA meeting voted against the K50 class. Nothing was pre-meditated before the meeting. A proposed motion was submitted months in advance of the meeting....a presentation was made stating the K50 class idea/motion at the meeting...a discussion took place....the K50 class was voted in (everyone who voted in the room was FOR...no one voted against)...a committee was formed to write up the class. We now have a class.
> 
> All the feedback following the vote, and the meeting was very positive...archers were/and are excited about something new for OAA 3D.
> 
> Anyone who has been around archery for a while (myself 20 years) knows it is nearly impossible to make all archers happy. The clubs and the OAA do the best they can as volunteers.
> 
> An important point to re-emphasize is: nothing that was in place has changed within OAA 3D. There is only a small addition...and it can’t hurt numbers. Let’s wait and see what happens with the K50 this summer.
> 
> Hopefully it warms up soon so we can all get outside shooting and off our computers!
> 
> Andrew


It can't hurt until people realize that this is just turning into a pro marked yardage class and they won't be able to stand a chance of being competitive. 

From what I can see the only people here who like it are the target archers that can't judge distance so they want their own class, which is fine but they should just come out and admit that instead of calling some that it is not! 

You don't need your own class just to come out and shoot, if this Is just about going out and shooting and having fun there are no clubs that would stop you from paying to shoot with your friends and a rangefinder for the day, In a non competitive manner!


----------



## Bow bandit

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> Lol
> That is funny
> But I find it quite offensive, especially if I was a woman
> Goes to show you there needs to be class distinction in archery and socially
> You prove yourself to be quite a boor
> Guess that's why I'm in a different class than you


Is that what you call the Wiz sceptre  sorry I had too.


----------



## Durhampro

Thanks Doc


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## Bow bandit

Ok I officially declare this thread closed! Everyone go to sleep or I am going to start shooting field archery!


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## XXX_Shooter

Bow bandit said:


> Is that what you call the Wiz sceptre  sorry I had too.





Bow bandit said:


> Ok I officially declare this thread closed! Everyone go to sleep or I am going to start shooting field archery!


You might want to shoot Fita Field... It's UNMARKED!!!!


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER

Sorry but I was at agm and did not vote for k 50 class my name is TED LADELPHA JUST TO GET IT STRAIGHT ....so lets get the facts straight ...


----------



## rockin_johny

Wow. You guys know how to drag out a simple question like you do a day at the range.

Maybe you should just drop all compound classes from all events because even without rangefinders you all take to long to shoot.

This thread is even more ridiculous than the archery funding thread. Makes me chuckle though.


----------



## Wiz w/a Sceptre

For the first time in how many posts Blake - I agree with you, call a spade a spade. I can't judge yardage and have no intent on judging yardage - its like trying to solve a differential that doesn't have a solution, i can't and i won't - frustrates the hell outta me and I simply have no desire or time to learn, but I do as many others do, I like to shoot my bow. So just let us target archers have our own class (K50) and have fun and contribute to the venue of shooting a 3D animal. Its not that tough. It brings in people that wouldn't otherwise play (target archers), potential to bring in other archers who would otherwise feel intimidated, brings in extra funds for the club - just a win - win for everyone. 

And you know what, hats off to you, you like to spend time honing your judging skills - i think thats admirable, you have the drive - i get, we get it. But others like me have no drive. I would rather sit by the pool and sip margarititas, drink beer and barbeque. Life is just to short to split hairs on is it 33 yds or 36 yds, and I still can't figure out where the hell the 12 ring is vs the other marks on the animals (thats another unknown). But I get where you are comimg from.

I hope to see you at the provincials having fun and shooting along side everyone, life is to short not too.



Bow bandit said:


> From what I can see the only people here who like it are the target archers that can't judge distance so they want their own class, which is fine but they should just come out and admit that instead of calling some that it is not!


----------



## stjoebowhunter

I thought the main reason for bringing this new class in was to get more beginners out!! How are the beginners going to feel shooting against target archers?? Most beginners are coming with there hunting bows, thats how I started and I would have been pretty discouraged shooting against some top level target archers that just couldn't estimate yardage and they were to lazy to learn. But hey if you want to kick ass in the beginners class go for it!!! Might as well bring a cross bow while your at it!


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## Wiz w/a Sceptre

They are going to feel the same about shooting against target archers in the marked class as seasoned veterans like Blake in unmarked distance class, but perhaps not lose as many arrows and perhaps learn something about shooting and not guessing as to why there arrow didn't hit where it was intended to because they know the distance - there are no excuses. Its a learning process.

But wait, are you saying that it is easier and much less intimidating to shoot unmarked against a seasoned veteran like Blake ? (Blake how do you feel about that - i want an honest opinion) We've all seen that excuse book come out now haven't we - my cams aren't hitting correctly, my drop away didn't drop, it should have been 12 - I'm pulling the line - i know I am. Could have, would have, should have. : )

But wait, we don't have a beginner class at a championship event do we ?

Respectfully, please go back and sharpen your pencil.


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## wellis1840

As far I as I have read stjoebowhunter, crossbows are allowed in the K50. Fifi has already stated earlier in this thread that she will be using her's at a local K50. She wants to shoot up some Nanos with her bolts.


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## wellis1840

Ah, Wiz w/a Sceptre, in 3D the ring in the center if the ten ring is counted as an eleven and not a twelve. Just a heads up.


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## stjoebowhunter

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> They are going to feel the same about shooting against target archers in the marked class as seasoned veterans like Blake in unmarked distance class, but perhaps not lose as many arrows and perhaps learn something about shooting and not guessing as to why there arrow didn't hit where it was intended to because they know the distance - there are no excuses. Its a learning process.
> 
> But wait, are you saying that it is easier and much less intimidating to shoot unmarked against a seasoned veteran like Blake ? (Blake how do you feel about that - i want an honest opinion) We've all seen that excuse book come out now haven't we - my cams aren't hitting correctly, my drop away didn't drop, it should have been 12 - I'm pulling the line - i know I am. Could have, would have, should have. : )
> 
> But wait, we don't have a beginner class at a championship event do we ?
> 
> Respectfully, please go back and sharpen your pencil.



For one the beginners wouldn't be shooting against Blake! Most guys that come as beginners would be shooting hunter class with hunting rigs and at 40 yards max! If its the guys first time and hes there for fun I always tell them not to worry about distance just have fun and learn.


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## Wiz w/a Sceptre

So your assumption is that beginners all shoot hunting rigs ? And what about the target archer who has never shot a 3d before, they are a beginner at 3d , shouldn't they be allowed to ease into the venue to see if they enjoy it or not ?

Pencil sharpening time.


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## cath8r

Levi won redding 2010.


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## XXX_Shooter

cath8r said:


> Levi won redding 2010.


Wasent sure if he had a win there or not. Thanks for the info.


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## FiFi

Oh my Lord you mean a die hard 3D shooter actually shot and won a MARKED 3D shoot, next thing he might shoot some indoors and maybe even those ASA shoots where they are unmarked on day and marked the next, I always wondered how can the ASA run a 1000+ shooters with a K50 class in the mix and somehow its the death nail for archery if the OAA runs one with a 120 shooter?????


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## Bow bandit

Oh look what came in the mail today! Maybe marked 3D could be fun


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## cath8r

Dave cousins wins almost every k50 he enters in the asa. Broadwater, Beaubeuf, Payne, and othernotable target pros make appearances in that class. So it reaches its target audience for the asa. Cant seewhy/how this thread got to this point. F'n sad.


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## XXX_Shooter

bow bandit said:


> oh look what came in the mail today! Maybe marked 3d could be fun


bring it on!!!!!!! :d


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## CLASSICHUNTER

can we get maybe a bit of insight here...which might help out....how will the oaa run this ???range finders then rule book has to be re written in regards to electronics on course...and will have to be voted on at next agm or is there a over ride since this is a trial basis class.. or are they giving out score cards with distances marked to only k class shooters... then we definetly can`t have mixed groups as 2 people have to score and witness cards right..Hope these issues are worked out before hand and they can... be on a positive note....lets try it .... and as rule book states I think clubs can run shoots as they please as long as not a sanctioned shoot.. and lets post a TRUE number of shooters ...like a photo of the score board ..a pic is worth a thousand words right... and I think if you win k class twice you can not enter it again as your learning session is over ...we want to bring new archers on board.. and k class should shoot on hunter peg distances to get the feel for 3d as was intended by this class right .. glad to see we all agree to disagree.. wow canada and free speech...a great thing and if you read post carefully you get an education with it...keep smiling everybody and be safe...


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## CLASSICHUNTER

chris those registered as weapons lol lol


----------



## DODGE-3D

I got a fresh dozen of Nock Busters for CXL's to Chris ,Maybe we could play East vs West??..


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## Bow bandit

Hey Ted, there will be no papers with yardage it is a range finder class, so the participants will have to bring their own. I am also going to make sure York runs a different stake for the K50 class just on case some accidentally say the yardage out loud. The unmarked classes will run on different stakes. Hopefully it will address some of the issues raised. I would also like it if the Oaa would try to make sure the K50 archers shoot together. This should help with any other concerns of any accidentally hearing yardage as well.


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## Bow bandit

DODGE-3D said:


> I got a fresh dozen of Nock Busters for CXL's to Chris ,Maybe we could play East vs West??..


Mine hit harder! Guaranteed  ok Dodge, you and Perkins vs me and Fagan. You and I have to shoot unmarked and Perkins and Fagan shoot the marked.


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## JDoupe

According to the motion passed at the AGM in 2011 all three legs of the Triple Crown, including the provincials, are supposed to be peer grouped to the greatest extent possible.

The fact that it was not followed last year does not make it any less relevant.


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## FiFi

Bow bandit said:


> Hey Ted, there will be no papers with yardage it is a range finder class, so the participants will have to bring their own. I am also going to make sure York runs a different stake for the K50 class just on case some accidentally say the yardage out loud. The unmarked classes will run on different stakes. Hopefully it will address some of the issues raised. I would also like it if the Oaa would try to make sure the K50 archers shoot together. This should help with any other concerns of any accidentally hearing yardage as well.


How are you going to do this since the K50 is shot from the orange stake (50yrd max), Peep grouping is done by the host club at regisrtation not the OAA exec.


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## Bow bandit

Easy, host club makes a different color stake, not rocket science. It does not say in the rules that they have to shoot every target at the same distance as the unmarked classes. The could very easily announce the color difference the day of the shoot. Target 1, K50 shoots 30 yards black stake, unmarked shoots 40 orange stake. Target 2,K50 shoots 45 yards, unmarked shoots 35. Pretty simple really.


----------



## FiFi

Bow bandit said:


> Easy, host club makes a different color stake, not rocket science. It does not say in the rules that they have to shoot every target at the same distance as the unmarked classes. The could very easily announce the color difference the day of the shoot. Target 1, K50 shoots 30 yards black stake, unmarked shoots 40 orange stake. Target 2,K50 shoots 45 yards, unmarked shoots 35. Pretty simple really.


Actually if you read the rules layed out it does say the K50 shoots from the orange stake, its the 3rd bullet on the first section of the rules under specifications


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## peregrine82

OK, you nock buster weenies, bring it on!!!!


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## shakyshot

t:

Just for the record.I have personally left a local 3D event at lunch because of walking the course and hearing Blake tell newby archers what they where doing"wronge" all morning.
When in reality he,as a top notch 3Der in Ontario, should have been giving advise,pointers.
Not ridicule and calling everything down.
This is why I personally do not enjoy 3D as I should be able to.
There are ample others that I have experianced doing this also.
Sorry to single you out Blake but best example I have.

Hope to see some of you out on the many different ranges in our Great province shooting for the biggest reason we all should.
To have fun.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

actually I commend blake here seems he has the most concerns yet is willing to step up to the plate to set up a k 50 course...if I am getting this right from the previous posts...seems like talk and ACTION here on Blakes part...and maybe if he runs it smoothly the oaa can accept and implement some of his ideas to incourage this class and make it permanent...open your eyes people ...


----------



## Bow bandit

shakyshot said:


> t:
> 
> Just for the record.I have personally left a local 3D event at lunch because of walking the course and hearing Blake tell newby archers what they where doing"wronge" all morning.
> When in reality he,as a top notch 3Der in Ontario, should have been giving advise,pointers.
> Not ridicule and calling everything down.
> This is why I personally do not enjoy 3D as I should be able to.
> There are ample others that I have experianced doing this also.
> Sorry to single you out Blake but best example I have.
> 
> Hope to see some of you out on the many different ranges in our Great province shooting for the biggest reason we all should.
> To have fun.


Well I will put it like this, I do not recall this awful sounding event and this may be the convenient excuse you came up with that day because you were having an off day and were embarrassed, but I have never tried to put down someone's shooting in my group on the range. So again for those who actually know me they know I only try offer good advise if someone is struggling on the range. You sir do not know me so make stories up somewhere else. Maybe you should ask a guy like Dave M how much a little advise can give you! still sounds like a good excuse to avoid getting spanked that day. I will be sure not to speak around you at the range so you don't have to leave again. Only one problem! I don't know who you are?


----------



## Bow bandit

FiFi said:


> Actually if you read the rules layed out it does say the K50 shoots from the orange stake, its the 3rd bullet on the first section of the rules under specifications


Easy rule to change to make it run better with less possibility accidental yardage being sounded. Could avoid a lot of finger pointing.


----------



## crkelly

peregrine82 said:


> OK, you nock buster weenies, bring it on!!!!
> 
> View attachment 1641581


Holy cow batman that will clear out the head lol


----------



## Bow bandit

peregrine82 said:


> OK, you nock buster weenies, bring it on!!!!
> 
> View attachment 1641581


Someone's dunce cap! Keep it handy.


----------



## Wiz w/a Sceptre

Bow bandit said:


> Well I will put it like this, I do not recall this awful sounding event and this may be the convenient excuse you came up with that day because you were having an off day and were embarrassed, but I have never tried to put down someone's shooting in my group on the range. So again for those who actually know me they know I only try offer good advise if someone is struggling on the range. You sir do not know me so make stories up somewhere else. Maybe you should ask a guy like Dave M how much a little advise can give you! still sounds like a good excuse to avoid getting spanked that day. I will be sure not to speak around you at the range so you don't have to leave again. Only one problem! I don't know who you are?


OMG
We give you guys a nice way out and instead you turn things around and it's just about you and how you spank people
I'm out. You sir are 100 % correct, why in earth would target archers even want to support your venue.
I will not be attending the provincials at York county as long as you are a member in standing there. I will sit by my pool.
You can say what you want, but there is no way I want to even be around a class act like you . It's just not enjoyable
Cha Ching - money in my pocket
Good luck to 3d as a whole


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## mprus

You guys obviously all have your own axes to grind...too bad you can't work together for the betterment of the sport!


----------



## shakyshot

Bow bandit said:


> Well I will put it like this, I do not recall this awful sounding event and this may be the convenient excuse you came up with that day because you were having an off day and were embarrassed, but I have never tried to put down someone's shooting in my group on the range. So again for those who actually know me they know I only try offer good advise if someone is struggling on the range. You sir do not know me so make stories up somewhere else. Maybe you should ask a guy like Dave M how much a little advise can give you! still sounds like a good excuse to avoid getting spanked that day. I will be sure not to speak around you at the range so you don't have to leave again. Only one problem! I don't know who you are?


Not true,you do know who I am.
I just keep a low profile and am not overly loud.
2 years ago.Royal City Bowman.
Last shoot there in september.
I was shooting with Rick and Katie.
I left after you started running araz2114 into the ground cause he wasn't there to defend himself.
As for the spanking.Please sir YOU are not my type.
I don't go to win.I have nothing to prove to anyone likes of you.
Beat me on the range all you want if it makes your ego feel better.
I know Dave M. I have also shot with him a few times. He's a nice guy.
Everyone knows who you are.You make real good and sure of that.
I feel opening this can of worms on here is just another way to feed you WAY supersized ego.
I agree with Wiz.You win.You are the master of 3Ds destiny.We will never question your supreme beingness ever again.
I to will keep my 3D money to myself.

Cheers

Shawn Galivan

There, now you know who I am


----------



## shakyshot

Mr Pruis.
Most of us try.
Some of us just wash our hands of everything.
The Mods on here need to shut this down.
The people with the biggest issues need to go to meetings and loby or something.
If i where a newby and read this i would quit archery now.


----------



## Bow bandit

Sorry pal! If you want to come on here and sling mud expect some in return! And wiz you are right things were going well untill some A H$&: I don't know starts to make up stories because his friends put him up to it. I don't take shi t from nobody and I am not about to start today!!!!!!! I really was trying to find a solution to this but let's spin this the other way! You targets archers think the world revolves around you! Guess what? Not in my world! Hey wiz did i say i would be the one spanking his ass, no but it is nice how ou can choose to spin that way to fill your obviously small ego, So make me out to be what ever you want. Good luck with your beginner pro whiners class. Judging yardage is hard bla bla bla. And yes this thread should be shut down as the target archers are starting to show their true colours and getting their lowly hench men to change the topic. Blaming everyone else because they know they are spinning this as something its not. I hope you all find what you want out of this but I am done! Have fun in your pool wiz, maybe you could invite shaky too because I won't miss either one of ya! I don't even know who you are. You might as well save your breath responding to this because I won't be reading it anyways! Everyone have a nice day


----------



## Bow bandit

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> OMG
> We give you guys a nice way out and instead you turn things around and it's just about you and how you spank people
> I'm out. You sir are 100 % correct, why in earth would target archers even want to support your venue.
> I will not be attending the provincials at York county as long as you are a member in standing there. I will sit by my pool.
> You can say what you want, but there is no way I want to even be around a class act like you . It's just not enjoyable
> Cha Ching - money in my pocket
> Good luck to 3d as a whole


By the way York is not mine! It's the members.


----------



## cheaplaughs

So that's that then.


----------



## shakyshot

hope so


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER

Hey guys just a thought if you are going to post on at positive or negative comments I really think you should fill out your bio ..name etc etc and location.. I`m not interested in the books you read or tv you watch or music but full name and location and maybe occupation would help... if not I personally think your comments aren`t worth anything.. and maybe the same guy has 3 identitys on here ...who knows ...and Blake good luck in your efforts...


----------



## shakyshot

i just checked my profile as i see you have also classic.
My name and everything are filled out.
For some reason my profile does not show my name when i lookk at it.
Shawn Galivan is the name.I ain't hiding anywhere


----------



## Stash

Wiz and Bow Bandit - time out - go to your rooms. This is strike 2 for both of you.


You want nock busters? Here's _*MY*_ nock buster.


----------



## FiFi

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> actually I commend blake here seems he has the most concerns yet is willing to step up to the plate to set up a k 50 course...if I am getting this right from the previous posts...seems like talk and ACTION here on Blakes part...and maybe if he runs it smoothly the oaa can accept and implement some of his ideas to incourage this class and make it permanent...open your eyes people ...


What is there to set up for a K50, you put the orange stake in the ground for most of the senior classes K50 is just another, nothing needs to be added.


----------



## FiFi

Bow bandit said:


> Easy rule to change to make it run better with less possibility accidental yardage being sounded. Could avoid a lot of finger pointing.


What finger pointing??, how is it the ASA with a 1000+ archers can put mixed divisions on the same course with hand out yardages with no issues but the OAA can't with 120 archers with no handout yardages???????


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER

shaky I don`t think it shows any info filled out as you can see a lot of people check bios out not just me ....maybe it can be updated or fixed check with pierre our moderator..for fix


----------



## F/F 3Der

FiFi said:


> What finger pointing??, how is it the ASA with a 1000+ archers can put mixed divisions on the same course with hand out yardages with no issues but the OAA can't with 120 archers with no handout yardages???????


You don't really believe there is no issues in the ASA do you. There may not be lots or just maybe up here north of the border we don't here about it. Read some some of the postings on here and you will see, but really will there not be problems in any form of competition. I believe what bowbandit is trying to say is group them together and set their own stake to help eliminate the opportunity for the finger pointing.


----------



## CLASSICHUNTER

Hey guys all of our bios have been changed no names any more ...mine included.....pierre our moderator whats the deal ...?????


----------



## JDoupe

If I had to guess....it's somehow the fault of the target guys.

...or the 3D guys.

...or the field guys.


Whoever it was.....give us our names in the bio section back!!!!!!!!


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## cath8r

Just a thought. Since k50 is pretty much designed to entice the field shooters to come out, why not make the shots the standard field yardages? One way to stave off cheating is to put the k50 stake behind the open stake, just make it 45 yards if the open stake is 40 yards. Make it 35 if open stake is 32 yards. It will keep the yardage a number field shooters are used to and by making it the furthest stake, it will discourage someone from 'peeking' since they are shooting in front of it. I also feel it should be farther than 50 since the yardage is known. I feel 60, 70 or 80 yarfs would be no problem since its known yardage and again, designed to get the 'target' guys out.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

this is 3d right original concept was a hunting situation ....and if you take 70 yd hunting shots then well hunting ethics don`t enter the criteria.....imho


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## DssBB

cath8r, It would impossible on most 3D courses to accommodate yardages such as you are proposing except for possibly one or two shots. I for one do not want to go climbing 80 yards up hill at Madawaska to retrieve my arrows let alone Joe and his crew having to drag the targets up their and set them prior to a shoot.


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## Stash

cath8r - then maybe have the field shooters shoot 4 arrows at each target. Maybe also put a black dot on the animal for a scoring spot (you could put it on the butt end so the 3Ders could still aim at the less visible kill zone rings).

CLASSICHUNTER - Good point. Since 3D was originally conceived as hunting simulation, no reason not to allow rangefinders, since they're permitted and common in hunting. 

---------------------------------

A lot of people are fond of pointing out that 3D was originally supposed to be hunting simulation. (Incidentally, that's how field archery started out, too.) Fair enough. Maybe we should revamp 3D entirely and make it as true a "bowhunting" round as possible.

Have people show up with real bowhunting equipment (including broadheads). You have to produce a current or recent hunting license, and if you have equipment that is arguably target stuff, you need to produce a photo of you with the equipment you are using in a real bowhunting situation. You can bring anything equipment-wise you'd use in a real hunting situation.

The course would be set up with the animals at all sorts of odd positions and distances, and behind cover. You get a point for a kill shot (through the chest cavity at the angle from where you shot the arrow), a minus point for a wound, nothing for a complete miss. If you think the shot's not ethical or it's too hard for you, you have the option of not taking the shot (to avoid minus points).

One awards division only. "Bowhunter". The animal doesn't care if you shot it with a compound, crossbow, recurve or longbow, pins, scope or no sight, fingers or release, rangefinder or guess.


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## shakyshot

Ood idea Stash but a .243 or a 20 guage shotgun is gonna make a hell of a mess. Better idea if you are talking ethics of hunting. Level the field. Put all targets behind trees and max out at about 25 yards. Make it "chalenging". Also do not allow any shafts larger than a standard CX or GT hunting shaft. If you are using fat shafts you should auto matically be in the open div as you obviously are needing them to up your scores


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## FiFi

F/F 3Der said:


> You don't really believe there is no issues in the ASA do you. There may not be lots or just maybe up here north of the border we don't here about it. Read some some of the postings on here and you will see, but really will there not be problems in any form of competition. I believe what bowbandit is trying to say is group them together and set their own stake to help eliminate the opportunity for the finger pointing.


if there was cheating in the ASA we would hear about it all over the place in short order, the simple fac is that cheating in archery (any archery) is extremly small, In the last 40 years of shooting I have heard of one instance where a person was DQed for cheating, And there is already a rule in place about discussing yardages the same rules apply to the K50 people as well. The point of using the orange stake is NOT to add to the work load of the club aswell if the club can when bidding for the shoot have a shotgun start the first day and have them all in there own categories, as of now everyone is peer grouped for day 2


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## shootthewhatnow

Stash said:


> .... Maybe also put a black dot on the animal for a scoring spot ....
> 
> CLASSICHUNTER - Good point. Since 3D was originally conceived as hunting simulation, no reason not to allow rangefinders, since they're permitted and common in hunting.
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> Have people show up with real bowhunting equipment (including broadheads)....
> 
> You have to produce a current or recent hunting license, ....
> 
> .... You can bring anything equipment-wise you'd use in a real hunting situation.
> 
> The course would be set up with the animals at all sorts of odd positions and distances, and behind cover. You get a point for a kill shot (through the chest cavity at the angle from where you shot the arrow), a minus point for a wound, nothing for a complete miss. If you think the shot's not ethical or it's too hard for you, you have the option of not taking the shot (to avoid minus points).
> 
> One awards division only. "Bowhunter". The animal doesn't care if you shot it with a compound, crossbow, recurve or longbow, pins, scope or no sight, fingers or release, rangefinder or guess.


Answering this line(ish) by line(ish)... cause I'd shoot this round excepting the feedback below....

1. Animals don't come with convenient black dots... or if the do they generally have lots and not on the "kill zone".

2. Range finders in hunting make total sense, therefor putting them in 3d (hunting practice) also makes sense.

3. Try getting clubs to let you shoot their x-hundred $$ rienharts with broadheads all day, see how far you get... this will not fly. Field points are practice points... use em or suffer open rebellion and have all the clubs closed to us.

4. Limit the competition to valid licensed hunters only and you'll kill 3d... for about 10 reasons I'm not going to type, nuff said.

5. Hunting stabs/equipment only is also silly... if someone feels it's required for their ethics to hunt with a long bar to make the shot, let em... ethics dictate the archer should use whatever he can to make a clean shot on the vitals. If you want to encourage folks to use a short rod simply set the target up in a very bad place for a long rod to make the shot... they won't do it twice, or they'll suffer through (ie. real life).

6. Scoring +1/-1/0 would end up with too many ties I'd bet... you'd need something a little better like +4/+1/-4/0 (heart/lungs/wound/miss or no-shot), but I like this idea for compound... sadly this is also not going to work as my last Trad category score would have ended up around -60 for a 40 target course (which was yesterday... very bad day...). I'm not super fond of the "you hit it in the (ear/leg/arse/nose/ect...), at least you get 5 points" rule, as I do not think this encourages ethical hunters.

7. Agreed... to a point... I'd make a few divisions, like Compound/xbow/trad/kids and lump folks into that. If you're feeling generous you could divide it on M/F lines.


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## Stash

Look like you missed a couple of my points there. 

The black dot comment was in reply to cath8r trying to turn 3D into more like field.

The "bowhunter" round was not serious - just going to the extreme to respond to the people who use the argument that 3D is supposed to simulate hunting. We all know it's nothing of the kind - it's just another target round.

Although, the stuff I listed might not make a bad club level round. There are a lot of clubs out there with majority members who are bowhunters and not much interested in 3D and what it's turned into, with long rods, fat shafts, scopes and pretty colored bows. Why not set up guidelines for a bowhunter round *for bowhunters*?

I do like the +1/-1/0 scoring, though. A dead animal is a dead animal - you don't get more or better tasting meat from a heart shot vs a lung shot - a kill is a kill. Further consideration makes me think a better scoring system would be +1/-5/0. That way, people would be strongly inclined not to take risky shots, only sure kills, which is the way bowhunting _*should*_ be.

And if you go -60 on a course, then it's a clear indication you're a menace and not ready to go hunting.


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## CaptainT

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> this is 3d right original concept was a hunting situation ....and if you take 70 yd hunting shots then well hunting ethics don`t enter the criteria.....imho


When I go hunting I take my range finders.... Just sayin'


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## FiFi

when the original OAA Bowhunting Champs first came in, there was very few classes nothing looking like any sort of target gear at all,ie movable sights long stabs etc, and yes the senior division started at 16 because you could get you hunting license at 16, now look at what we have now, it was the bowhunters that made these changes because they had their own AGM at the time. We now have several divisions that have no resemblance to hunting equipment at all. you should have been around when the OAA brought in Xbows, what went on then was 100 times worse than what some feel the K50 is and it turned out to be a non issue


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Just to stir the pot I was wondering if figures compiled yet as to personal venues yet when we filled out our oaa memberships this year eg 3-d .. field.. target .....can we have a final tally please ??/and are membership monies being directed to said venue as per % of members signed in each category.. and there should only be 3 categories


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## FiFi

Well they cancelled the junior team to the NFAA's due to lack of funds so I don't think there will be a whole lot ot split up.


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## arrowboy

Wiz w/a Sceptre said:


> OMG
> We give you guys a nice way out and instead you turn things around and it's just about you and how you spank people
> I'm out. You sir are 100 % correct, why in earth would target archers even want to support your venue.
> I will not be attending the provincials at York county as long as you are a member in standing there. I will sit by my pool.
> You can say what you want, but there is no way I want to even be around a class act like you . It's just not enjoyable
> Cha Ching - money in my pocket
> Good luck to 3d as a whole


Not sure what you have against Bow Bandit but I have been to quite a few shoots where he has been and found him okay and helpful. But it does seem like you have a axe to grind with him? it seems to me he is trying to help with the k50 class and has some good points and for you to say you won't go to the OAA just seems like you don't want to support the OAA ?? Why attack the guy just go shoot it and talk to the man work out your differences,just mine 2 cents.


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## Bow bandit

I won the chicken trophy today and it is a great honor to have the trophy since they looked at the Dossey one before me.


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## Bow bandit

I just realized my phone has an auto speak texting feature.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Just went on asa web site they have a k45 and a 40 yd class and rules state NO RANGE FINDERS allowed on course and 45 and 40 yd max ...and that was for a major shoot


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## shootthewhatnow

Bow bandit said:


> I won the chicken trophy today and it is a great honor to have the trophy since they looked at the Dossey one before me.





Bow bandit said:


> I just realized my phone has an auto speak texting feature.


Is that an iPhone? ...Cause what you just said there makes no sense at all.


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## Bow bandit

It's makes sense to those that were there! Yes it's an I phone, that's why it's so easy to mess up text, damn auto correct.


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## FiFi

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Just went on asa web site they have a k45 and a 40 yd class and rules state NO RANGE FINDERS allowed on course and 45 and 40 yd max ...and that was for a major shoot


they also handout the yardages on paper to the K45-50 groups, the proposal was not to add to the workload of the club hence rangfinders, thought you where at the AGM all this was discussed there


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## tmorelli

ASA allows rangefinders for all known distance competition. They hand out papers showing the yardage for each target to every group too so that people can be competitive without owning a rangefinder but most shooters have their own, site in using it and then prefer to use it over the provided numbers. 

There are several classes that shoot half known distance and half unknown. The above applies there too. In just the men's side I can think of Open C, Open B, Hunter and maybe some seniors too. Women have several also. 

There are several classes that shoot all known distance too. Novice, women's known 40, known 45 and known 50 come to mind. 





Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## CLASSICHUNTER

I just read no range finders on the asa site right here on at .. then there is a club rule but as posted no range finders ...if I knew how to do a link I would...


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## CLASSICHUNTER

fi fi why the digs at every person at every post you make ...do you have a problem conversing with people ?????? and yes I was there and drove the 5-6 hours to be there ...seems even other people call you out on this ..and you still don`t get it...Be nice and receptive..maybe you will learn something...


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## rockin_johny

This is still very funny


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## shakyshot

Bow bandit said:


> It's makes sense to those that were there! Yes it's an I phone, that's why it's so easy to mess up text, damn auto correct.


Thought you closed this thread at #76? I shot 3D today to. Left the guess finder in the truck. Had as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. Didn't win but you know what?? It doesn't matter. Hope you enjoy your trophy. Put it with all your other ones. I'm just gonna keep shooting for fun so I don't get to uptite about silly rules. Cheers to all and I think this horse has been kicked enough


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## tmorelli

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> I just read no range finders on the asa site right here on at .. then there is a club rule but as posted no range finders ...if I knew how to do a link I would...


You're reading it wrong. 

I shoot ASA and see it regularly. I just got home from LA where I carried a RF all weekend.... same as 100's of other shooters. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## peregrine82

I was at the AGM and voted in favour of the motion put forward by Andrew regarding the K50 class. I voted for it because at the time I didn't see any downsides. It was going to be a new class that would

hopefully bring new shooters to 3D. It was proposed as a trial for 2013 and if found to be successful would stand and if not it would be dropped in 2014. I am still in favour of this as I still don't see any downside.


There has been comment about cheating, all of us that shoot 3D know that cheating exists now and I don't see that K50 is going to change anything. Shooters that cheat will continue to do

so and K50 is not going to change that. Really don't know why the debate on this can't remain civil but it seems that like every contentious topic on Archery talk it descends in to a personal p i s s i n g match.

3D attendance is dwindling, everyone who shoots the Ontario circuit knows this, I just see K50 as a an opportunity to increase numbers. If it works, great, if not it will be dropped, very simple.


Redding California hosts one of the most successful 3D shoots in the US. It is known distance with orange dots on the targets which are set from 13 yards to 102 yards. There are 70 targets

shot over 2 days. Attendance is huge and attracts hundreds of amateurs and pros. Attendance is going up every year so maybe we can learn something from this. We are facing dropping attendance as is the

IBO because we don't change. I would love to go to Redding because it looks like a fantastic weekend and a chance to do something out of the norm. Last year Redding was won by our very own pro 

Chris Perkins. Maybe we need a Redding north to rekindle interest in 3D. I know that to not change is counter productive. Instead of fighting every new proposal maybe we should embrace it because maybe

just maybe it could work. To those that know me, know I have been around the block (several times actually) and one thing I have found is being positive trumps negative every time.


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## wanemann

common sense and logic coupled with a good attitued usually works peregrine, i agree with you totally as do many. problem is not everyone shares those traits this is why we have 6 pages of why its no good instead of how to make it work, its too bad really.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

well said Bob.. lets try it as I have posted but also try to make it work..some good Ideas have come up but seems some are not receptive to the input.. again like you if it increases numbers and not a burden on the clubs that pursue this class then great... I knew the voice of reason would show some time...


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## Bow bandit

Ya, notice I am not discussing the the thread! Glad you had fun today, 3D is always fun. I also had fun today helping new members at the club learn to shoot unmarked yardage. I also fixed up a really messed up bow for another new member, he bought a bow at a location that I thought would know how to set up a bow by now, but that is another topic. Fun had by all!


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## Bow bandit

He peregrine you are correct this could work if some of the suggestions placed forward in this thread were taken seriously. I really do think this class will not last long because it is not an all inclusive class. I really think if you want to try something why wouldn't we have a marked championship and unmarked championship so all classes are represented. I still maintain letting pro archers shoot in a K50 class which is suppose to draw new archers may be counter productive. The ASA has several marked classes and the K 50 is not very popular! The k45 draws more archers, the also have a Known women's class. That being said they still only draw 10% of the crowd at an ASA event. So I really believe we should have looked at this closer before we implemented it. This is just my opinion so please don't get mad or try to draw me out with silly comments! I really am trying to help but I do admit to having a short fuse


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## arrowboy

shakyshot said:


> Thought you closed this thread at #76? I shot 3D today to. Left the guess finder in the truck. Had as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. Didn't win but you know what?? It doesn't matter. Hope you enjoy your trophy. Put it with all your other ones. I'm just gonna keep shooting for fun so I don't get to uptite about silly rules. Cheers to all and I think this horse has been kicked enough


So why keep kicking it? You really must like putting Bow Bandit down when all he did was stand up for himself after the put down you said about him I feel you should have maybe taken him aside and talked to him instead of degrading him like you did on this thread.


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## shakyshot

Bow bandit said:


> Ya, notice I am not discussing the the thread! Glad you had fun today, 3D is always fun. I also had fun today helping new members at the club learn to shoot unmarked yardage. I also fixed up a really messed up bow for another new member, he bought a bow at a location that I thought would know how to set up a bow by now, but that is another topic. Fun had by all!


Thats awesome! Good times for all.
The bow setup on the other hand,your preaching to the choir here.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

c some of us can show some respect to others ...great and to clarify my comment on range finders I did some research and the asa tournament of april 7 had a line in the rules section persay about no rangefinders but I reread the whole deal and that was for spectators able to walk the course.. haven`t gone through the complete set of rules yet... my bad ...


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## DssBB

tmorelli,

Maybe you can help with some clairifacation on the classes in the ASA K50 with regards to classes with regards to skill level (ie semi-pro)
The reason I ask is from my interpretation of what Blake was trying to say. With the trial introduction of a K50 class in Ontario to introduce or allow new shooters to compete in the 3D discipline of archery, and if several of the top field/fita shooters in the country are also planning to compete then there will be a slight to huge advantage for those experienced archers. In order to somewhat level the playing field and allow the new shooters to actually have a chance of winning or placing well in a K50 class tournament, should the more experienced shooters not be put into a semi-pro K50 group.
This in turn does create extra classes but allows fairness for all archers to compete in. With that said, it would also be nice if we in Ontario can also adopt a semi-pro class in MBR or BHO to allow newer shooters to the two classes a chance at winning. The big boys can then duke it out in their own class similar to what the IBO and ASA runs.


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## peregrine82

Rob, in theory this may be OK but in reality it won't work. Firstly we just don't have the archers to piece off classes. To those who may feel intimidated shooting against better archers, my advice, work and practise harder just as those better shooters did.

I don't want an easy or easier path to the podium, put in the time, take your lumps and keep shooting. None of our top archers got to the top after a week of shooting.
I am totally against the philosophy of participant medals with no winners. There are those that believe that the children of today will have their self esteem affected if they compete and lose. Well folks that's life as we know it. In the real world there are winners and losers. In all walks of life it is the same. Teaching a child that there no winners or losers is setting them up for failure in the real world.

I know that my ability to compete successfully diminishes with each passing year. That doesn't stop me from competing, I cling to the illusion that at the next tournament I am going to have the round of my life and all my fellow competitors will fail miserably. I've always been an optimist, at Christmas there was that large pile of pony crap. Most kids would start crying, I went looking for the pony.


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## JDoupe

I have not said much on this issue....but here is my 2 cents.

More classes! Wow....that I have not heard. I see where you are coming from....but there are already too many classes IMHO.

I think the intent was to get more "new to 3D" archers....as opposed to more "new archers" to 3D. Subtle difference....but the idea is to get more archers to 3D....regardless of experience. 

I don't agree with the big guns shooting with new archers.....but at some point.....that's going to happen. Nothing stopping the big guns from going into the Hunter class....should we tell them they can't? As long as they are following the rules...good for them. The shooters will figure things out themselves. Believe me, if Bow Bandit was shooting the Hunter class and thrashing some new guys for a couple of years....it wouldn't be long before his peers would ask him what the heck he was doing and to get his head out of his but and shoot where he belongs (.....I would be the first to respectfully do this....). I don't think he would disagree with me in saying this.

If the target side of archery shooters come out and shoot the K50...then that's awesome! If they spend 2 or 3 years cleaning up in the top spot......people will let them know in their own way that it is time to start to guess the yardage. 

This may seem silly....but for the target archers looking to get into 3D.....why not try the hunter class? It's 40 yards max. Screw on one of you side bars on the front and put on a pin sight. Most of today's bow set up with 3D weight arrows should shoot fairly flat out to 25 yards. Target archers know what 20 yards look like probably better than most.....so guessing if it's 25-33 or 33-40 should get you in the target and not loose arrows (biggest concern).

Now that being said.......I'm not opposed to the K50.....let's try it out for a season. We can re-evaluate after that. If it sticks around.......it will self regulate itself as to who shoots it year after year. Somehow I don't see Perkins (not picking on you Chris...but your name has been brought up a couple of times so I'm just using it for continuity) or others shooting it competitively year after year. 


As for cheating? Like others have said....it's going to happen.....but hopefully it will be kept to a minimum. With that said, there should be best practice to keep it from happening.

Like I mentioned earlier, there was a motion passed at the AGM in 2011 that all three legs of the Triple Crown (OAA's included) will be peer grouped at all shoots, on all days. If this is followed......K50 shooters should be grouped and this should keep the cheater, cheater, pumpkin eaters to a minimum.

Any way.......I do support Blake in his efforts to try and figure out how to do this right. I also support the target shooters in coming over and trying 3D again, or for the first time. I think we will be able to work this out one way or another.

Excited for the 3D season! ...and up here.....it can't come soon enough!!!!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

great posts jd and bob ..I think most cheating is done with the pen not the yardage personally...and since I run a tournament i have to say there are to many age groups and equipment overrides in classes.... to me hunter class is screw in points ...12 inch stab ...and fixed pins and not a moveable mount with fixed pins either .. a hunting sight and 3 inch minimum fletching..and if you win lets say k 50 twice in a year ... you must move up to unmarked class as your form must be pretty darn good already..And it is a beginner or novice category .....Just some thoughts.. I guess to have this class successful we will need a whole bunch of NEW names on the roster to prove its success...


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## DssBB

I understand what both Bobby and JD are saying about not want to add extra classes to an already full line up classes and not enough archers to fill what we already have. All I was suggesting and it could be done on a trial basis at some of the larger events was to adopt a couple of semi-pro classes in both known and unknown yardages for the big dogs to fight it out in. As it appears now, we in Ontario are having some of our top archers going down to the states to compete in tournaments instead of staying in Ontario to shoot. Are they going state side to chase money, stiffer and greater competition, better venues?? If a semi-pro class was tried out in Ontario at some of the key events, would it be able to draw shooters from the states to compete up here and help with growing 3D archery in Ontario and offer an incentive through stiffer competitions for the top shooters to remain up here more often and compete.
Just a thought, take it for what it's worth....


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## CLASSICHUNTER

we now have open ....which to me is top dollar class .... we don`t need to rename like semi pro ..most of these guys have logo shirts on already... what we need to do is bring hunter class back to what it really should and was ..12 inch stab etc etc and a 35 yd max same as the trad guys ..kiss method ....and you will get the new shooter out and and the not so proficient to shoot this category until they want to move up to open with all the bells and whistles ....we could also drop the finger class and have them shoot in the release classes as we know we get 4 shooters max with finger shooters ..sorry guys buy a release or shoot with fingers your choice...trad should be just that longbow and recurve together as well and you know I shoot both..my choice of weapon that day ...remember its for fun and a 2 dollar medal mostly age groups should be up to 10 yrs then 11-13 and 14-16 and 17 up a senior and 55 up a master nice and simple ... what do ya think guys and if you want another class then bring 10 guys to the registration table and we will maybe implement it ...


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## rockin_johny

And while we are at it, why not police the extended times being taken by shooters at each station. The length of shoots is getting to be ridiculous at times. And it is always a few select groups that slow it all down.


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## Bow bandit

Hey Ted, we have a hunter class already with twelve in stab. Ultimately I really think people want to go to events that are fun to shoot. There are a few shoots like that each year and they draw good crowds because they are fun to shoot and you feel like there is some return on your investment. Yes the investment is small in the realm of things but if you show up to a club and they put a course out that is sure to stump a pro archer it slows things down dramitcally. I know the speed of shoots is an issue but not even range finders will solve this if you put out 40 yard turkeys. Think how big the Scoring ring is on a 40 yard field butt vs a turkey. The turkey is half the size to score a ten. 

You can always tell when there is a backup at a 3D event, it is not due to binos or open shooters it is alway the shot that is most challenging that causes this. So I propose course layout is very important to speeding things up. 

Clubs don't need to try and keep a few of the top archers from shooting over par, this really only slows things down and chases away fringe archers. The truth still remains the top archers will still come out on top. When I go to a world championship I expect it to be hard but I choose to go there knowing it will be challenging, I don't think the average guy wants to shoot a course like this every weekend, simply because it does take a tonne of time to shoot at that level. 

Take a look at the clubs that have great attendance year after year a try to model what they are doing. I also believe clubs need to run less shoots and focus on one great shoot a year several clubs have started this and it seems to be paying off for them. Durham, north bay, onaping falls, royal city and P&P are just a few I can think of.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Blake I thought we had a hunter class with all the goodies and long stabs .. if we do then this should be dropped ...and the old school one only exist...if its only the yardage that is the separating part with open then shoot a hunter set up and when you are proficient then go into open .. a hunter does not use a 3 ft stab and moveable sight ...then we can get the newbies back right...way to many want to be`s with all the goodies sorry might sound harsh but true .....And like bobby said we know some of us are not the top caliber in our class but we do have fun and work at it...


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## Bow bandit

We have both so there is more of a stepping stone. Hunter class with short stabs and hunting arrows and 35 yard max. Bowunter realease which allows longer stabs and 50 yards max so you can try them out before going to a full open set up. It is a pretty costly venture for most to move from hunter to open, at least 1000$ or more for the equipment to do so and quite a jump for some to be competitive right out of hunter to open. The BHR class is also one of the biggest in Ontario. The march madness just had over 60 BHR shooters at their tournament, that was almost half in attendance, so it would be counterproductive to get rid of the class to make people move to open, most would not make the jump. If you really wanted to do something have three open classes like ASA with the move out rule. If you win so many events in a season you have to move up. Slots people with shooters of their caliber.


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## Robert Piette

I don't usually get involved in the politics of archery, but Blake has made a very good point. Archers that continually win major events across the Province/Canada/USA need to slotted together. Perhaps the OAA should consider abolishing the OPEN Class as a money class as there is little to no participation and replace it with a Pro/Semi Pro or Champions Class, whatever you want to call it. So, if in the last few years you have finished in the top three at the OAA Provincials in either BHR, BHO or OPEN, you get slotted into this "Pro/Semi Pro or Champions Class". If you fail to finish in the top ten in a given year you revert back to BHO or BHR. This allows up and coming shooters a chance at success in BHO or BHR. Blake has sighted the March Madness Shoot in Sudbury as a successful tournament year after year. The reason it is success is a little bit of novelty, but additionally the club brackets out the 10 ten shooters in BHR , calling them the Pro Division. This allows your average shoot to compete for a metal. Let's face it, everyone likes a chance to win.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

so in bowhunter release then you have fixed sights and screw in tips as a diference to open ..am I correct ...in this thanks ...


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## ont.deerhunter

O.k guys what am I to do for the grenville outdoor shoot to get everyone out. I will start another thread but thought since many ideas are being thrown around on this thread thought i would post it here first, What does everyone want to see at the shoot. Dont want to start another pissing match but would like as many positive ideas as i can get. Some are posting about great shoots that get alot of attendance. What are they doing that i can implement at our shoot to make it bigger and better? Please use the grenville 3-d thread or if you wish just pm me with ideas. Thanks Paul.


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## JDoupe

Ted.......the only difference between BHR and BHO is a movable sight with magnification. Open class is for the cash (some people call BHO the open class as it's the same equipment....but no money up for grabs).

No need for screw in tips.

I'm never shot 3D when it started....but I think some people are confusing the name Bow Hunter Release and Bow Hunter Open to mean that they are "hunting" oriented.


I think that originally the concept of 3D was to improve your hunting skill....and it still does that today....but some of the classes are a form of target archery that has nothing to do with hunting. 


The "Hunter" class tries to keep it close to hunting rigs as possible with a short stab and screw in tips (so you can switch up to BH for hunting), but the name Bow Hunter release and Bow Hunter Open are just names of different classes. Might just as well be called Class 1 and Class 2 divisions.


Does that clear some things up for some people....or is that just more confusing than ever?


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## crkelly

Most of us who have been around archery for awhile have seen drops in attendance over the years. Thus the implement of classes to counter loss in attendance and attract new comers. To remove classes now in hopes that one new one will be the magic fix would be a step backwards. Think most of you will agree that it's the state of the economy that's driving attendance down.
We lost 54 thousand jobs in our province last month alone. I'm with Bobby on this one and feel we should give the K50 a kick at the can and take care of any hiccups later. Pray for a stronger economy and if possible bring a friend or young person to your next shoot. My two cents.


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## Grey Eagle

peregrine82 said:


> I was at the AGM and voted in favour of the motion put forward by Andrew regarding the K50 class. I voted for it because at the time I didn't see any downsides. It was going to be a new class that would
> 
> hopefully bring new shooters to 3D. It was proposed as a trial for 2013 and if found to be successful would stand and if not it would be dropped in 2014. I am still in favour of this as I still don't see any downside.
> 
> 
> There has been comment about cheating, all of us that shoot 3D know that cheating exists now and I don't see that K50 is going to change anything. Shooters that cheat will continue to do
> 
> so and K50 is not going to change that. Really don't know why the debate on this can't remain civil but it seems that like every contentious topic on Archery talk it descends in to a personal p i s s i n g match.
> 
> 3D attendance is dwindling, everyone who shoots the Ontario circuit knows this, I just see K50 as a an opportunity to increase numbers. If it works, great, if not it will be dropped, very simple.
> 
> 
> Redding California hosts one of the most successful 3D shoots in the US. It is known distance with orange dots on the targets which are set from 13 yards to 102 yards. There are 70 targets
> 
> shot over 2 days. Attendance is huge and attracts hundreds of amateurs and pros. Attendance is going up every year so maybe we can learn something from this. We are facing dropping attendance as is the
> 
> IBO because we don't change. I would love to go to Redding because it looks like a fantastic weekend and a chance to do something out of the norm. Last year Redding was won by our very own pro
> 
> Chris Perkins. Maybe we need a Redding north to rekindle interest in 3D. I know that to not change is counter productive. Instead of fighting every new proposal maybe we should embrace it because maybe
> 
> just maybe it could work. To those that know me, know I have been around the block (several times actually) and one thing I have found is being positive trumps negative every time.


A shoot in the format of Redding would be simply awesome! Having been fortunate enough to make Redding once, several years back, I can say without hesitation that it was the most FUN event I ever attended. Rained on us for three days straight but even that couldn't wipe the smile off my face.

The Fun factor wasn't from the competition, it was from the event. Though there is a serious deal going on out on the courses, you felt apart of something different, more of a social atmosphere. Come to think of it, most of the events that I would rate as enjoyable would fit this bill, much like the march madness shoot here in Sudbury.

Heck, if someone were to spearhead a shoot akin to Redding in Ontario I'd be up for helping out.

Cheers

Dennis


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## Bow bandit

Just a note, Redding does look fun but it is not even remotely close to being a 3D shoot! The best way to describe it is field archery on foam creature backstops. There is an aiming dot with a round circle around that shot with a range finder. Just saying for those who don't know about this shoot. Maybe field archery should switch to that format permanently, attendance would probably go up.


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## Camocruzr

I know everyone here does not know me except one. I am an archer who use to be involved alot in 3-D archery and some OAA shoots. Twenty years have gone by since I have been involved in target archery. This new K50 class in my opinion is a good thing. I would like to show up at a tourney shoot with some pals that are still shooting alot and not be disgraced by loosing every arrow I own. I bowhunt alot, use a range finder religeously(even with my trad. stuff). My buddies may tease me a bit about the range finder, but I would still enjoy shooting and not be disgraced. I think a rangefinder class is great. So on to the next thing.. cheating. Everybody and I mean everybody who uses binoculars has the opportunaty to cheat. Period. Everytime archers go to the stake p/u those binos and focus them(depth of field). they have the opportunity to look down at the focusing turret and tell the yardage. That ones been around for the dawn of compitition. It does not mean you cheat but you can. OAA and the 3d'ers same old same....geez. Steve


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## CLASSICHUNTER

field with 3d targets BLAKE your on to something there ... called an extreme 3-d ..... this is maybe the k50 replacemnt in the making ... as k50 was introduced as target shooters loosing arrows if I remeber andrew`s motion and presentation...


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## Grey Eagle

Bow bandit said:


> Just a note, Redding does look fun but it is not even remotely close to being a 3D shoot! The best way to describe it is field archery on foam creature backstops. There is an aiming dot with a round circle around that shot with a range finder. Just saying for those who don't know about this shoot. Maybe field archery should switch to that format permanently, attendance would probably go up.


Blake, with all due respect, I find it a bit short sighted on your part to make comments on an event that you have no personal knowledge of. It may not be "3D" to some, but given the fact that it's attendance eclipses most, if not all, IBO and ASA events it IS an event that has found a way to appeal to a broad base of archers. So whatever it may not be be, it sure has found a way to be fun and attractive to both the diehard and casual archer. Something sorely lacking around here for years.

I wish you, and your ilk, would wake up and realize one day that the advent of known yardage shoots, or the new K50 class was/is not meant to tear down 3D or provide a means for those of lesser talent to compete, they are meant to foster an atmoshpere of enjoyment in a sport that could use it.

Cheers

Dennis


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## Grey Eagle

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> field with 3d targets BLAKE your on to something there ... called an extreme 3-d ..... this is maybe the k50 replacemnt in the making ... as k50 was introduced as target shooters loosing arrows if I remeber andrew`s motion and presentation...


3D was born out of Field. The 2D version is called the animal round, it's been around for eons.


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## XXX_Shooter

Bow bandit said:


> Just a note, Redding does look fun but it is not even remotely close to being a 3D shoot! The best way to describe it is field archery on foam creature backstops. There is an aiming dot with a round circle around that shot with a range finder. Just saying for those who don't know about this shoot. Maybe field archery should switch to that format permanently, attendance would probably go up.


Classified as the second largest 3-D shoot in the world. NFAA Marked 3-D Championships (AKA Redding Classic Trail Shoot)


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## CLASSICHUNTER

grey eagle just a question so why has field lost so many shooters???and 3d has grown to amazing popularity...is it because of the long distances // I`m stumped on this as why then if 3d took the shooters from field is then why field has not attracked more people since distances are known ... or should field go down to a 60 yard max shot just some thoughts and concerns ... and chris is this redding just geared to the compound bow shooters or are their closer pegs for trad than the 70-100 yd shots... just wondering always wanted to do route 66 and california girls ....no those are beach boys songs... and view california girls not do ...lol lol


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## Grey Eagle

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> grey eagle just a question so why has field lost so many shooters???and 3d has grown to amazing popularity...is it because of the long distances // I`m stumped on this as why then if 3d took the shooters from field is then why field has not attracked more people since distances are known ... or should field go down to a 60 yard max shot just some thoughts and concerns ... and chris is this redding just geared to the compound bow shooters or are their closer pegs for trad than the 70-100 yd shots... just wondering always wanted to do route 66 and california girls ....no those are beach boys songs... and view california girls not do ...lol lol


Ted, I've only been in this game for 15 years. In that time I have seen field go up slightly in popularity, the numbers are still low but given the fact that there are only 6 field courses in all of the province (compared to 50 odd 3D courses) I think the numbers are respectable. From what I have heard from those with far deeper roots than I in this sport, Field used to be a good deal more popular before the birth of 3D. 

For reference, here is the attendance at the last 5 Field and 3D provincial championships........

3D

2012 - 83
2011 - 83
2010 - 85
2009 - 114
2008 - 121


Field

2012 - 38
2011 - 26
2010 - 39
2009 - 38
2008 - 41

Given the access to field courses in the province I'd say that is a pretty good percentage vs 3D.

As for your comment " and 3d has grown to amazing popularity" I think you would be hard pressed to find many to agree with you on that statement. Certainly on well thought out and run tournaments, such as yours, the attendance is still strong, but for the vast majority of events attendance is a fraction of what it used to be. In my short time in the sport I can remember local shoots bringing in 150 - 200 attendees, championships and such well over 200 to 300.

As for Redding, if you get a chance...... go. It's not near a beach, but the mountains of northern California are beautiful.

Cheers 

Dennis


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## CLASSICHUNTER

thanks for the reply I think also numbers for 3d have shrunk a bit because now there are 3 or more 3d`s on any given weekend in travelling distance of each other so entries are spread out ...lots of over laps just look at oaa book and we have the quebec guys as well up here .. we used to meet with them and set dates so every club had a good turn out ..but like all things only a few do all the organizing and work... so if you take the 3 clubs with 60-80 shooters at each that equals about 180 shooters out on any given weekend in my end of ontario .. so yes 3d is still very strong ....just spread out ....


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## Bow bandit

Hey Chris, NFAA = a target organization not a 3D one or the IBO or ASA would be running it on rienhart or mckenzie targets not homemade ones, Just saying! Not against it at all Dennis, I just like 3D in its current format, I believe there is room for both separately so all classes of archers can be represented not just a few pro archers. 

The attendance at 3D events is down for many reasons, separation of trad shooters and compound shooters, fuel, clubs disappearing due to target costs. OAA events being held in far reaches of the province the past few years. 

But let's face some truths as well, there are clubs out there drawing well over 100 archers every year because they listen and run well organized events in locations that are easy to get to and offer people something for there dollar. 

Truth, I love archery and participate in all forms of archery, but I too have been around the block and have a lot more experience than some, I have been to great events and bad ones but I prefer 3D, turning it into a novelty shoot like Redding will only have short term gains. The same as the R100 it was fun once but I don't go chasing it around now. 

I am all for an event like Redding, it would be more interesting than field in its current format! But it still is closer to a field event than 3D just so people don't get confused. Don't be fooled by the attendance at Redding either, it is once a year so it draws a crowd! Start running 5 of those a year all over the states and see how quickly the attendance goes down due to saturation. 

The thing I don't understand is that's we have so many forms of marked archery now, how is another one going to be sustainable. If the 3D game is not your thing you have lots of options out there to shoot already, pick your poison because we have talented archers in all of them. 

I also believe 3D is already the most inclusive sport out there with the Classes it offers. I would love to try a World Cup event but I can't because I have jump through a million hoops and be a part of Archery Canada to go but anyone can try a 3D with the exception of qualifying for the worlds which is not that hard. 

Hey it's just my opinion based on my experiences, so don't get mad take it for what it's worth, if it helps great! If not I tried. Everyone's point is valid to them and until you walk in their shoes you may not understand it.


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## Grey Eagle

I know that the OAA zone reps make efforts to try and avoid overlaps within a zone, or with neighbouring clubs in an adjacent zone for shoots. It can't always be avoided, but it works most times. As reference, I did a quick review of the 3D events scheduled for April through June this year, there are a total of 40 3D shoots scheduled. There are only 3 conflicts within a zone, and no more than 2 shoots on the same day in an case. This review doesn't factor in target or field events, were you to include those there would be a few more conflicts.

I still think you would be pretty hard pressed to have many agree with you that attendance has been watered down, as oppossed to just plain down.

Anyways, this should be about trying to bolster numbers, not split em. I'm all for trying to find ways to be more inclusive and grow the sport. What I have noticed is that while 3D is softening, target has seen a real resurgence (and as a sidenote, the target championships the last two years have matched the 3D championships in attendance). I guess with all the positive media these days (aka the hunger games etc) there has been a real influx of those wanting to take up target archery. Talk to any club with a entry program and you will see that their classes are full, with waiting lists in many cases.

Cheers

Dennis


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## Grey Eagle

Bow bandit said:


> Hey Chris, NFAA = a target organization not a 3D one or the IBO or ASA would be running it on rienhart or mckenzie targets not homemade ones, Just saying! Not against it at all Dennis, I just like 3D in its current format, I believe there is room for both separately so all classes of archers can be represented not just a few pro archers.
> 
> Blake I understand you like the current format, your opinion is well documented, and fair enough. I'm just struggling to understand how trying to be more inclusive could be a bad thing? Or at the very least, as the proposal now stands, worth a shot?
> 
> The attendance at 3D events is down for many reasons, separation of trad shooters and compound shooters, fuel, clubs disappearing due to target costs. OAA events being held in far reaches of the province the past few years.
> 
> Some valid reasons there, the least of which is the economy. Though I don't believe this tells the whole tale.
> 
> But let's face some truths as well, there are clubs out there drawing well over 100 archers every year because they listen and run well organized events in locations that are easy to get to and offer people something for there dollar.
> 
> Bingo! This is what I said, well run shoots that recognize that its not just about a scorecard and make it an enjoyable event for all archers have done well, relatively speaking.
> 
> Truth, I love archery and participate in all forms of archery, but I too have been around the block and have a lot more experience than some, I have been to great events and bad ones but I prefer 3D, turning it into a novelty shoot like Redding will only have short term gains. The same as the R100 it was fun once but I don't go chasing it around now.
> 
> I hope you get to Redding one year, doubt you'd think of it as a novelty shoot. And nobody is suggesting turning 3D into anything. Just trying to find ways to lure back, and attract new, archers. The idea of a Redding style shoot is a seperate discussion.
> 
> I am all for an event like Redding, it would be more interesting than field in its current format! But it still is closer to a field event than 3D just so people don't get confused. Don't be fooled by the attendance at Redding either, it is once a year so it draws a crowd! Start running 5 of those a year all over the states and see how quickly the attendance goes down due to saturation.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what would be the attendance if the Redding shoot format was regionalized. Then again I think as big a factor would be finding 4 other clubs that can host an event (not just a shoot) like Redding.
> 
> The thing I don't understand is that's we have so many forms of marked archery now, how is another one going to be sustainable. If the 3D game is not your thing you have lots of options out there to shoot already, pick your poison because we have talented archers in all of them.
> 
> Well time will tell, what's the worry with trying?
> 
> I also believe 3D is already the most inclusive sport out there with the Classes it offers. I would love to try a World Cup event but I can't because I have jump through a million hoops and be a part of Archery Canada to go but anyone can try a 3D with the exception of qualifying for the worlds which is not that hard.
> 
> Hey it's just my opinion based on my experiences, so don't get mad take it for what it's worth, if it helps great! If not I tried. Everyone's point is valid to them and until you walk in their shoes you may not understand it.


No harm no foul, I'm not mad at anyone. And I agree with your last statement.

Cheers

Dennis


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## Bow bandit

Benefits of 3-D Archery by PSE’s Dustin Jones
2 Votes

By Dustin Jones

http://www.highcountrybowhunter.com/

Spring is here which means that I am getting closer to chasing antelope and elk. Predator hunting is the only season that I’m hunting right now but there is one more season that I look forward to this time of year. I am taking advantage of practicing and participating in the many upcoming 3-D archery shoots.



There is so much you can learn and grow from as a bowhunter by shooting 3-D targets. I’m not saying that shooting a block target is bad or that you should only shoot 3-D targets. When you get the chance to shoot at a life-sized deer, elk, turkey, or any animal you are pursuing, you gain that experience that you otherwise can’t from just a block target. I wanted to share some of the benefits that I have gained.

Shot Placement



Sure the vitals on a deer are all in the same place, just as every elk has their vitals in the same place. But what happens when you get an animal just slightly quartering towards you or away from you? What about if they are bedded down? There are so many different possible situations that you could encounter while hunting that you couldn’t possibly prepare for everyone, but you can prepare for a lot of them by shooting at life-size targets. Being able to set up a quartering shot, long distance shot, or even a kneeling shot will help prepare you for those situations better. You can also quickly walk up and analyze the shot placement, make any adjustments and try again.

Realistic Situations


You can see different situations and scenarios in this picture

You spot your animal and you notice that there will be just this one little opening for a possible shot, should you take it or let it pass? Setting up a realistic situation is very easy to do and great practice. Set up your target with some brush in the way so you have to adjust a little, or even set it up at odd distances instead of at the regular 20, 30, or 40 yards. Sometimes those shots that are 36 or 43 are just enough to get you to over-think your shot. The two shoots I mentioned in the beginning are great examples of this as they are set up on a mountain and you scale the mountain to take your shot on different animals in different situations.

Pure Enjoyment


Teaching my son Fynch while he’s young

When I shoot either at the 3-D range or at a local shoot, I am usually with friends or family when I go. Being able to have great company and friendly competition always adds to the level of enjoyment. Let’s be honest, it is much more fun to shoot at something that resembles the animal you will be pursuing rather than a cube. Having friends or family share in the archery experience is priceless. My wife actually owns a bow but has made it very clear she does not want to shoot a live animal, but she loves getting out and shooting 3-D targets.


Fynch and his Bear

These are just some of the many benefits of shooting 3-D. There are plenty of opportunities to get out and experience shooting 3-D. What are some of the benefits that you have encountered?

Dustin Jones is a passionate outdoorsman who loves to hunt, especially bowhunt. He created his blog, HighCountryBowhunter.com, to share his experiences with others. He is a Field Staff member for DIYbowhunter.com and Adventure Team member for MINOX Hunting Optics.

Dustin was born and raised in Eastern Idaho where he currently resides with his wife and two sons.

Keep your eye out for the #elktour DVD over on huntography.com! Watch PSE’s Emily Anderson and Dustin Jones hunt elk DIY style on our amazing public lands in the Western United States. Huntography also films a deer hunting DVD called #deertour which you will be able to watch PSE’s Will Jenkins hunt whitetails. Huntography…filming America’s hunters, one at a time!

To learn more about PSE’s top quality bows and bowhunting accessories, click here.

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## shakyshot

DAMN!!!
You guys all have way to much time on your hands!!

And,,Blake,You shut this down at 76 I beleive..YET,here you are.

:icon_1_lol:
No offence but let it go.
Has nobody looked outside??
Go shoot your damn bows and MOVE on!!


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## peregrine82

The reason this is still going is that the dialogue is civil and respectful. If something positive can come of this then I see no problem in it continuing. Yes it is shooting season and I will be out there doing it.

Looking forward to seeing you again at Halton, and Blake and Bernie, burn it up in Georgia.


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## Bow bandit

The Battle to protect the greatest form of archery will never end!


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## crkelly

Bow bandit said:


> The Battle to protect the greatest form of archery will never end!


Amen!


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## shakyshot

Archery is archery.
Shoot em if you got em.
peregrine82.Good seeing you at Galt.
I will not be able to attend anything for awhile.Life happens.
Josh sets up an awesome course and I wish I could go.
Not sure 3D is the greatest but fun yes.
Not enough arrows shot in a day for me though.


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## Bow bandit

http://www.facebook.com/BowJunky/posts/467283923351861


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## CLASSICHUNTER

cool


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## mprus

shakyshot said:


> Mr Pruis.
> Most of us try.
> Some of us just wash our hands of everything.
> The Mods on here need to shut this down.
> The people with the biggest issues need to go to meetings and loby or something.
> If i where a newby and read this i would quit archery now.


Thanks Mr. Galivan, you're down to less than a dozen spelling mistakes!


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## hoody123

mprus said:


> Thanks Mr. Galivan, you're down to less than a dozen spelling mistakes!


And thank you for being down to only one grammar mistake!


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## shakyshot

Mr.Prus
You should stop pointing fingers.
Stop your hissy fit about be teased for dry firing your bow.
everyone has had it happen at some point and we did not stop talking to everyone that poked fun.
If we had I would not speak to anyone on any range anywhere.
Take it like a man.It happens.
Stop walking the range course at ERG backwards like 2 of us saw you doing 2 nights ago.
As for spelling mistakes.I don't care.If you don't like it,log off.
When you are ready to stop acting like a teenage girl pissed at her friends for a stupid reason Colby is ready to talk to you again.

Shawn


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Grey eagle you said you checked oaa listings and only 2 tournaments conflicting..on oaa site may 5th there are 5 3-d shoots all within travelling distance.. this is why we have low and spread out numbers again 3-d is stong but spread out...don`t know where you got your facts just a correction not a dig ... we need our oaa reps to maybe try to ask clubs not to over lap..again clubs will always hold their shoot on the same weekend like I do for pandp archery just an observation...


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## doc2931

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Grey eagle you said you checked oaa listings and only 2 tournaments conflicting..on oaa site may 5th there are 5 3-d shoots all within travelling distance.. this is why we have low and spread out numbers again 3-d is stong but spread out...don`t know where you got your facts  just a correction not a dig ... we need our oaa reps to maybe try to ask clubs not to over lap..again clubs will always hold their shoot on the same weekend like I do for pandp archery just an observation...


This is something that will be addressed better in the future, but also the reason that the shoot dates are posted on the OAA Website well, well in advance of printing the directory so that these conflicting dates are noticed and solved as best as possible before printing.


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## x-hunta

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Grey eagle you said you checked oaa listings and only 2 tournaments conflicting..on oaa site may 5th there are 5 3-d shoots all within travelling distance.. this is why we have low and spread out numbers again 3-d is stong but spread out...don`t know where you got your facts just a correction not a dig ... we need our oaa reps to maybe try to ask clubs not to over lap..again clubs will always hold their shoot on the same weekend like I do for pandp archery just an observation...


We do our best to avoid this, but sometimes it just isn't possible. Of note on May 5th, of the 5 tournaments, there are 4 separate zones represented. Grey Eagle I believe was talking about within zone conflicts. We work to avoid conflicts within zones as the average weekend archer will usually not go very far out of their zone for a shoot. But when we find conflicts we notify the clubs involved, encourage changing the weekend if possible and that's really all we can do. We can't simply just say you can't hold a tournament, its just not fair as some clubs have few weekends they are able to shoot due to various reasons. As for conflicting tournaments within the province, it just cannot be avoided. I looked on the list and there is not an open weekend until you hit October.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

thanks guys you just said what I said.....in the fact we have lots of tournaments .. I think on the fifth though we have quite a few in traveling distance of one another .... my point was that 3-d is still very strong and not dwindling that much ...any set of stats can be a numbers game depending on how it or we present it .. geez look at our gov`t they do it daily.... well today was beautiful and I must say I was fishing not shooting a tournament for once ... everybody have a great summer and be safe and will see most of you at the tournaments...


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## mprus

shakyshot said:


> Mr.Prus
> You should stop pointing fingers.
> Stop your hissy fit about be teased for dry firing your bow.
> everyone has had it happen at some point and we did not stop talking to everyone that poked fun.
> If we had I would not speak to anyone on any range anywhere.
> Take it like a man.It happens.
> Stop walking the range course at ERG backwards like 2 of us saw you doing 2 nights ago.
> As for spelling mistakes.I don't care.If you don't like it,log off.
> When you are ready to stop acting like a teenage girl pissed at her friends for a stupid reason Colby is ready to talk to you again.
> 
> Shawn


Shawn you have a very nasty habit of bad mouthing people all over the place. Stick to what you know, picking flowers, etc...


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