# Indoor Setup Question



## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

Okay...setting up my indoor rig, and a friend told me about a way to set up my big fat arrows that involved "bouncing" them on a table edge...I only half listened and didn't catch all the explanation...anybody tried this? or swear by it? any help?


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

carbon or aluminum ?


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## dmr400 (Feb 24, 2012)

The search term you are looking for I think is "node" or "node tuning". I have a rough understanding of it, but wouldn't want to explain it wrong.


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm trying GT Triple X's this year, and one of the other shooters was explaining it to me and I fuzzed out...it sorta makes sense, can anyone explain it in simple terms?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the cyclic resonant node of an arrow, is the spot at which the flex of a shaft pivots on. that point doesn't move up or down as the shaft flexes and will be different for every length spine and point weight, because all three contribute to just how the shaft flexes when stressed out of column. that spot stays in alignment with the center of a straight arrow shaft, so as the arrow flexes, that spot stays motionless, in relation to the flexing arch the arrow makes. it is also know as the "epicenter of flex". 
the idea is that you want the arrow to sit on the rest at that spot, or just slightly ahead of that spot, so that when the arrow is slammed by the acceleration of being shot and it flexes instantly, it does not change elevations, or is driven slightly down into the rest, for guidance, not up off the rest. if the arrow sits ahead of the node, when the arrow flexes, the center of the shaft is lifted and displaced above the resting point and there fore the shaft ahs risen off the rest, immediately after starting it's path of flight. inconsistencies in spine and straightness, will vary the amount the shaft rises, so, if you establish the arrow sitting on the rest at it's node, the differences in spine have less effect on disturbance in launch.
your slightly high nock is supposed to lift the back of the arrow up, just slightly, as the arrow leaves the string for just a bit of extra fletching clearance, as they pass the rest.
it is especially important for shaft that are light and flexible, but less important for shafts that are on the stiff side. the key is that with large shafts, you are adding tip weight to soften the spine. the heavier the tip weight is, the more the shaft will flex on acceleration, so it is important, to some dgree to have that node sitting over the contact point of the rest and shaft.


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

that was the simple explanation ?!?! LOL Let me see...I take the arrow by the nock and strum it over the edge of a table...I have already marked where the rest is at full draw...I thump it till the arrow stops bouncing and mark that...now what? do I cut the arrow off at the forward mark? or leave it long and shoot it? I'm confused.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the greatest factor in cyclic node is shaft length, and then tip weight. so pick a tip weight that gives you the best softening of spine according to your draw weight and predicted shaft length and install a tip in your full length shaft. now with the shaft hanging over the edge of a table, pluck the shaft and watch how it bounces. move the shaft backwards or forwards until the pluck, produces one bounce and then settles to no more bouncing. that spot, where only one bounce is produced,..... is the node point for your combination. compare the length from the nock to the node point of the shaft, with the length from nock to rest at full draw on the bow. you want those two measurements as close to equal as you can get them.
shorten the shaft, until both measurement are the same or very close, erring, if any, on the long side for the shaft's measurement. the node will move further into the shafts length from the tip, as you shorten the arrow, so remove small amounts at a time, until you get the same, or very close, measurements
because the node spot is a exponential function of tip weight and length, for any given static spine, you cannot compare both measurements and simply remove the difference from the shaft, because that node point will move a different amount every time you cut a bit off, so you have to sort of "sneak up on it" by repeatedly checking ad then cutting a small amount (1/4 inch or so).


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that's as "simple" as it gets. some things about archery, simply are not "simple' and require some reading and thinking. that's the problem with archery....it's not just pulling on that string and flinging an arrow through the air.
if want "simple', ask a different question, i can't help that you don't have a rudimentary understanding of archery.
i don't mean that sarcastically, but you are in the "advanced forum".


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

No offense taken even though that was a cheap shot, but this is new territory to me...I AM an advanced archer, but this is my first foray into shooting indoor with carbon arrows...my next question is; does this make a significant difference in indoor? or is this exercise designed for long distance shooting?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

shot distance doesn't matter, the interaction between shooter bow and arrow, is the same, regardless of how far the arrow goes. if things aren't right at the bow, things won't be right at the target.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

We've all seen slow motion of arrows being shot. When we shoot arrows, they wiggle for a ways, except for two points that are called the nodes. One way to find these nodes is to hold the arrow horizontally by the nock and tap it with your finger. As you tap, you will feel a vibration except for two point a short ways from each end where it will won't vibrate. It will feel like a dead spot. These dead spots are the nodes. You can also find the nodes by holding the nock end with the front end resting on something. "Pluck" the arrow and you will find the node where the arrow doesn't bounce.

An arrow is considered tuned for arrow flight if the nodes are on exactly the same trajectory. That is, the rear node follows the front node exactly. You really don't need to know this, but it is interesting.

Some archers find that if you put the front node exactly on the rest, you will get better results. Others put the front node a little bit in front of the rest for best results. And others such as Tim Gillingham feel like the front node should be behind the rest.

With so many differing opinions, it seems to me that the node location isn't that important for most of us. It may be something to experiment with if you are going for 60X I/O, but for most of us, it's simply interesting. But there is certainly no harm in experimenting with it.

For a little more scientific discussion of this:

http://www.tap46home.plus.com/mechanics/

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it wasn't meant as a "cheap shot", just fact. if you are an advanced archer, you would some of this, because it is the same for target shooting as it is for hunting. as a matter of fact, it is actually more important when broad heads enter the picture and much of this problem is because people think it's not all that important for hunting, but the fact is.... that this subject,...is exactly why broadheads are difficult to get to fly good.
one of the problems that i mentioned early on about this specific forum, is that it will be hard to keep guys from asking questions , looking for answers to rudimentary problems, from the guys that have the correct information..... yours is just one such question.... i sounds advanced, but is really very rudimentary in the understanding of archery science and with a short search, there is this information in the general section....i and a few others, put it there.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the reason for thinking the node should be behind the rest is that as the arrow flexes it flexes up first, there by lifting the arrow away from the rest. there are two schools of thought about this. one prefers that the arrow be off the rest as soon as possible, and the other prefers the rest in the picture doing what it should, guiding the arrow out of the bow. one prefers an dead level nock set up, and one a slightly higher nock point. neither is good or bad, when done correctly, setting up all aspects in relation to the specific school of thought, they both get the job done. just different views on what works best.
the comment in question about the preference, is that the fore-mentioned set up, is on parallel with how a drop-away works, and the other's successful use, is slightly more dependent on the level of shot execution and follow through of the archer. somewhat the same argument as the effective use of a drop-away and is the exact content that brought drop-aways into existence.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Davik said:


> that was the simple explanation ?!?! LOL Let me see...I take the arrow by the nock and strum it over the edge of a table...I have already marked where the rest is at full draw...I thump it till the arrow stops bouncing and mark that...now what? do I cut the arrow off at the forward mark? or leave it long and shoot it? I'm confused.


To answer your question as simply as I can. No, you would not cut your arrow further--that would only create a "new node" based on that arrows new length and new spine. What you'd like to do is find the location of the forward node and mark that spot on your arrow with a sharpie and then adjust the position of your blade so that the node sits just infront of the blade (this is my preference as I set slightly nock high--other positions already mentioned also work well) .


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Run xxx's long with 200-250gr tips; pick your build specs and then worry about nodes. Set the node at or in front of the blade and work from there to get blade stiffness and angle correct. Node aren't as important with carbons as alu's; I've not seen a difference with xxx's between ones where the node and rest were set to work with one another and ones where the node was behind the blade.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm going to take up Peanut farming. :jksign:

Really, pretty soon we'll be doing more checking and testing than shooting. I mean, dang, if your arrow isn't spine tested (maybe this doesn't count if "bouncing" your arrows)...If you don't cut arrow to length by cutting off both ends...If your arrow ends aren't squared...If don't fletch according to how your bare shaft rotates...If you don't spin your glue-in points while gluing them in....


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I shot my first 60 X game with BHFS gear........ old model X-Jammers (.250 spine ?) cut .25" in front of the rest, (3) Flex Fletch FLP-400's, .012 blade with a .012 backer using a 6" brace "speed" bow (Martin Cougar III Mag, Nitrous-X cams) and a 26" draw. The FLP vanes are very low profile and those X-Jammers cut at about 24.5" are stupid stiff and I wasn't exactly a youngster (43 or 44). There were a couple of months where I was averaging about 59 x's with that set up.

My point is.........
Whenever, I start getting stressed about my set up I try to take a moment and think about what I used for my first real good game. Assuming you have a fairly decent set up no amount of tweaking and tuning is going to get you a large amount of points or X's........ However, a slightly improved shot and attitude can especially in competition. A stronger shot will then let you better evaluate your set up which then realizes on your shot.


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

I know...I'm getting tired of all the ways I won't be a good shooter if I don't do this or that...I spent an entire day playing with nocks and the Hooter Shooter last year...never again! and then this comes up...you have to be an engineer anymore to be a shooter! LOL...and then I get told to go sit at the kids table! LOL I shot my first 60X with 2512's cut short and used 145gr screw in Saunders points and 4" feathers...A good friend once told me that I could be a world champion with any setup...as long as I was willing to practice 12 hours a day, everyday! Thanks for the "technical info" I'm gonna hack'em and stack'em!


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

No, you have to be an engineer to be an archery tinkerer....and when the engineers on here start bantering amongst themselves, I am very happy to be seated at the kiddy table....too much work and not enough shooting....

Your friend was probably correct in stating that you could be as good an archer as you desire with enough dedicated training without all of the chatter, gadgets, and gizmos that are so prevelant in the sport today. 

When it gets too technically deep in here, I simply pack up my bow and head out to the range a couple of hours...LOL!!


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

I heard a lot of reference to one node. My understanding is it's two nodes, one up towards the front and one towards the back of the arrow. The path of the arrow will be a line drawn between the two nodes and the center of mass will be along this line.

In any case, I've seen guys and gals with all kinds of setups, under spined, over spined, narrow diameter, regular diameter, line cutters, light arrows, heavy arrows, long arrows, short arrows, freestyle target bows, hunting bows, light draw weights, heavy draw weights, ... , that shoot 300s regularly and they are chasing X count. To me, it's a lot more about a well tuned bow for the arrows you have and the skill of the archer than chasing nodes on arrows. I am an engineer, but believe the same as montigre, " .... too much work and not enough shooting .... "


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

for cripe's sake,....... someone asks a question and the answer should be relative. would you rather read some thing like , "aw, don't worry about it..... just cut 'em off any where you want to, slap some points in the shafts and go shoot them" ?. it takes an extra 10 seconds to find the node of a shaft, you spend more time than that deciding which colors to fletch with, and that doesn't make one like of difference to the arrows performance. how is answering a question completely, too complicated or technically deep ?.
maybe the next time someone asks about nodes, we should reply with, just use green fletch and you don't have to worry about nodes.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the number of nodes in a shaft makes no difference and is in no way relative to the reason an arrow is set up with it's length putting a node at the rest contact spot. the shaft could have 10 nodes....as long as it rests on a node, the same conditions will be met.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you all wanted this sub-forum, now that we have it and the answers are as advanced as the shooters that participate,...things are now too deep ?.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

How many more I/o's do you shoot in your 60x's with respect to correctly node tuned arrows compared to non node tuned arrows?

Is it important to understand nodes, yes. Is it important to make sure and node tune because you will never get as good of results otherwise, no it's not. You have technical answers above with one or two practical ones; the book also says ya gotta have no cam lean and perfect arrow flight... But we ALL know that isn't factual


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I enjoy exercising my brain cells as much as the next person, but some conversations usually reach a saturation point where one has to decide if the time spent arguing theory for another few days is going to make them a better shooter or if the time would be better spent hitting the range for a few hours. I believe the latter is more practical and overall more beneficial. 

So, yes, I guess it becomes too deep when argued theoretical applications become more important than actually getting out there and shooting arrows with precision at an intended target. I'm just sayin'.....


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Last I checked, a jar licker counts the same as a super X. I just shot 4 of the easiest 60X 10 yd games this week ( I have ever had) and the only thing I changed were my expectations of when my shot should break and my breathing... YMMV


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

From the Of days gone by thread posted by Sonny Thomas:



> Bow tuning by Bernie; "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form; and if you have consistent form , tuning then becomes irrelevant."


The more I think about and work on my shot cycle the more I think he is correct. 

As far as just going to the range and shoot, I've seen people do that for years and they are not any better today than they were when they started.
(me included) so I know that just shooting arrows at the range doesn't guarantee improvement doesn't even mean you won't go backwards. 

so tune and go shoot arrows, But don't be too upset when you don't improve. 

me I'm going to go think about and visualize my shot cycle some more. 
I find the more I visualize the better I can visualize. 
Which leads to preforming my shot cycle with more consistency. 
which leads to tuning becomes irrelevant...:mg: Later


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

ron w said:


> for cripe's sake,....... someone asks a question and the answer should be relative. would you rather read some thing like , "aw, don't worry about it..... just cut 'em off any where you want to, slap some points in the shafts and go shoot them" ?. it takes an extra 10 seconds to find the node of a shaft, you spend more time than that deciding which colors to fletch with, and that doesn't make one like of difference to the arrows performance. how is answering a question completely, too complicated or technically deep ?.
> maybe the next time someone asks about nodes, we should reply with, just use green fletch and you don't have to worry about nodes.


Easy Spartacus . . . I believe the vibe you are picking up here is your fellow archers saying, "Is this going to produce any measurable difference in performance? What if cutting my arrow to get the node on the rest means my arrow will be dynamically too stiff or soft? Is the juice worth the squeeze? Green vanes?" 

The OP wanted to know what the bounce thing was. Several great explanations. Even Griv calls this arrow voodoo.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Griv calls it "arrow voodoo" because he's mocking everyone who won't take the time to learn what it's about.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

I think Troy Basham said it best. Perfection is the purest form of procrastination. Some people tune stuff and tune stuff until their string is wore out and needs replacing and then repeat over and over. They never actually get to the actual shooting part of archery. 

Nothing trumps the correct draw length coupled with good form and a good shot sequence. This alone will take you to the top, spend your time here. Walk back tune, creep tune, shoot a decent hole thru paper and let er ride. All tuning after that should be score based. 

On arrows, when you get one that will have a decent tear and be close to center shot after walk back tune, then creep tune your bow and go shoot the darn thing. It was made for continual shooting and not continual work. We already have jobs, this is supposed to be about fun. Who would every buy something that was ment for continual work with continual cost and no pay?

When you get this all figured out, string lengths, arrows that shoot etc, write it all down. Quit buying crap and go shoot. 

Blue X


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> Griv calls it "arrow voodoo" because he's mocking everyone who won't take the time to learn what it's about.


And how many are good enough to take advantage of this "arrow voodoo" if it does give that tiny bit of accuracy?

How many articles have come forth about "bouncing" arrows? 

The All Great Randy Ulmer penned of fletching bare shaft arrows by what direction they turned coming out of the bow. Me; Sorry, Randy, but I've got better things to do. 

You know, this "bouncing" of arrows would have a lot people screaming if put over in General Archery. 

I don't do a lot of stuff for tuning, but I get along pretty good without it. Nope, no Pro, but then how many are? I don't use a spine tester. I don't square the ends of my arrows. I don't bare shaft tune. I don't tiller tune. I can go on and on. More against me, I'm left handed and left eye dominant and shoot a bow right handed. The only thing is, I've done pretty good over the last 14 years (2 years out for injuries, surgery and whatever). For the first 3 years back into archery I never had any one around me that was Super about anything. I didn't know what spine was. I didn't know of lot of stuff. Being ignorant now seems the best I thing I ever was.....

Major players over in General Discussion. One finally coughed up that he use to French tune, what I do. Another noted that people who use field points can get a way with murder. Some come back, huh?
They way I got it more people would be better off tuning themselves than tuning their bows and arrows or trying to find a "magic trick" that cures all.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the point is that ,...this IS the "ADVANCED FORUM"...IS IT NOT ?......
advanced issues are what this forum is for, discussed by advanced shooters, looking for advanced answers to advanced problems and advanced content matter. how can discussions in this sub-forum get "too technically deep" ?.
do we need to form another sub-forum for "elevated", advanced issues ?.

Praeger......as I said, I would assume if you're asking questions in this forum, you would expect the replies to go into some detail that fits and conforms to the level of the forum's intended purpose.

Sonny, node science has been discussed many times in the general forum. most it has fallen on deaf ears....now those deaf ears are showing up in this forum, as well.

you guys crack me up !.....you all want an "advanced forum", so when you get one, you declare the content, "too deeply technical". 

what you guys don't seem to realize is that years ago, we had all this "advanced discussion" in the regular forum, when a number of the worlds best were on here all the time. this same attitude,....that of, "if I ask a question, give me the answer that I like,...not one that answers my question"....is what drove the pros away from AT.....evidently, no-one learned from that mistake.

if you ask a question and you don't understand the answer, or you think it's too deeply technical, maybe you should spend some time on the search engine, before you puke on the replier's efforts.


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## gje64 (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks ron w for the explanation. I for one use these forums to learn more about shooting and tuning. I like to work on my own bow and this has been a great pleace to learn. Weather or not I use this information I do find it quite interesting. Keep the good info coming.... some of us do appreciate it.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

ron w said:


> the point is that ,...this IS the "ADVANCED FORUM"...IS IT NOT ?......
> advanced issues are what this forum is for, discussed by advanced shooters, looking for advanced answers to advanced problems and advanced content matter. how can discussions in this sub-forum get "too technically deep" ?.
> do we need to form another sub-forum for "elevated", advanced issues ?.
> 
> ...


All kidding aside, the OP's question was asked and answered. What followed was the reasonable question as to whether node tuning an arrow resulted in a measurable improvement in performance. I haven't seen anyone report so. No one is questioning your explanation, simply whether it is worthwhile - especially when you might find yourself choosing between cutting to the node or to best spine. There are plenty of tuning regiments which are exacting and arguably may provide a degree of increased accuracy and/or consistency; and it is reasonable for individuals to decide whether it's worth the time. When Griv shot aluminum arrows he node tuned and called it "voodoo" because it was arcane and he acknowledged it.

No one is saying they don't understand what you've said or that it is too complex, some are simply saying they don't think it's worth it. It's a forum, there should be discussion.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

From personal experience, I do not believe node tuning carbon arrows shot from a compound with a release aid yields much of an appreciable improvement in the archer's performance. As has already been stated, a much greater bump in performance would be achieved from the archer working to improve his/her form, mental approach, and execution--range time, not computer time.

A nice video demonstrating the flex of a carbon arrow shot with a release from a compound. The archer in the video is Pat Coghlan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVsWmqrfVj4

And another of Rodger Willet at the 2007 World Target Championships. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkUyYmSrRk0&index=10&list=PL8AB73568A024A458


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

Geez! Sorry I asked the question...I assumed that since the title of this thread was "Intermediate and Advanced Archery" that an intermediate archer (me) trying to be an advanced archer might get some help here...yes, the concept was explained to me...several times...but I could not wrap my head around some of the terms (very advanced ones) and asked for clarification...what I got from some of you is that I am 1. not knowledgeable enough to be in this section of the board, 2. do not understand the fundamentals of archery, and 3.trespassing on someone else's territory...I assure you that I 1. DO understand the fundamentals, 2. and will never ask a question on this forum again. Thanks for your "help"
an Intermediate Archer.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Davik said:


> Geez! Sorry I asked the question...I assumed that since the title of this thread was "Intermediate and Advanced Archery" that an intermediate archer (me) trying to be an advanced archer might get some help here...yes, the concept was explained to me...several times...but I could not wrap my head around some of the terms (very advanced ones) and asked for clarification...what I got from some of you is that I am 1. not knowledgeable enough to be in this section of the board, 2. do not understand the fundamentals of archery, and 3.trespassing on someone else's territory...I assure you that I 1. DO understand the fundamentals, 2. and will never ask a question on this forum again. Thanks for your "help"
> an Intermediate Archer.


Don't let it get you down Davik. There was actually some pretty good responses on this topic due to your question. Interesting reading/discussion if you will. Don't let those what would apparently try to belittle you with their extensive "wisdom" run you off. At least this topic escaped those who try to spam nearly every topic with their entry level video sales.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Davik said:


> Geez! Sorry I asked the question...I assumed that since the title of this thread was "Intermediate and Advanced Archery" that an intermediate archer (me) trying to be an advanced archer might get some help here...yes, the concept was explained to me...several times...but I could not wrap my head around some of the terms (very advanced ones) and asked for clarification...what I got from some of you is that I am 1. not knowledgeable enough to be in this section of the board, 2. do not understand the fundamentals of archery, and 3.trespassing on someone else's territory...I assure you that I 1. DO understand the fundamentals, 2. and will never ask a question on this forum again. Thanks for your "help"
> an Intermediate Archer.


Don't let the fact that one person got their undies in a wad scare you off. If you push the pause button on those isolated remarks, you have gotten some fine answers to your questions here. Build your arrows to achieve the dynamic spine you're looking for and then node tune your rest. You should then be all set (arrow wise) to do some serious damage to those Xs...:wink:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

In all reality, to say it doesn't help is to deny that "physics" exits....which then, node science would be "arrow voodoo". 
just as those who believe it does no good on carbon arrows. carbon arrows are marketed by spine value, just like aluminum arrows,...... because they flex when shot. maye not as much as an aluminum shaft and maybe they flex and return to column faster than an aluminum shaft, the fact remains that they flex, too,..... which means.... they will have a node frequency, just as aluminum shafts do.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Davik said:


> Geez! Sorry I asked the question...I assumed that since the title of this thread was "Intermediate and Advanced Archery" that an intermediate archer (me) trying to be an advanced archer might get some help here...yes, the concept was explained to me...several times...but I could not wrap my head around some of the terms (very advanced ones) and asked for clarification...what I got from some of you is that I am 1. not knowledgeable enough to be in this section of the board, 2. do not understand the fundamentals of archery, and 3.trespassing on someone else's territory...I assure you that I 1. DO understand the fundamentals, 2. and will never ask a question on this forum again. Thanks for your "help"
> an Intermediate Archer.


Can't blame you, but that of archery is all over the internet and then after reading all what do you want to believe or what rather you want to do? Hey, it's a proven fact bows of questionable tune can be shot very accurately.

So I went internet surfing. After about 6 articles and PDFs I was getting kind of blind. 3 proved somewhat agreeable, I think. So I picked one of known name, Easton's arrow tuning guide. How old, I don't know, but a whole whopping $2.50 showing  Like most archery stuff I get rather disappointed. The danged PDF didn't say whether it was something good or bad or that the node was at the point fully around the shaft, but does show from the side and from the top and shows the node at two points of the arrow, one in the back and one in the front. Really not confusing but is because another article giving of node and archer's paradox in my head, is Easton's guide giving pictures of mis-alignment of nodes which I guess is critical, but then we align the arrow with the arrow rest with paper tuning, bare shaft tuning, French tuning or some danged tuning. Now, pictures show archer's paradox and the nodes staying fixed (?). Archer's paradox is normally associated with finger shooters. Now, with a compound bow and release aid archer's paradox is non-existent. And the pictures shows no flexing and the nodes...well, just there. The problem is, compounds will have vertical paradox.... 

Have to go back. Seems there are break downs of the arrow in nodes, Eigens. I take it that the arrow goes through a faze, Eigen 1, 2 and 3. Now, Eigen #1 shows two nodes, Eigen #2 shows three nodes and Eigen #3 shows four nodes. And the formulas for...frequencies. What dang frequencies? Well, vibrations, I guess. Wonder how long this goes on down range?

So I got tired of the BS. Not one dang article stuck something out there to say to me; "Hey, this promotes accuracy." Confusing, one or two articles noting something of the arrow node to the rest and tail end of the arrow node leaving the rest.

All in PDF down loads, I snipped a couple of pictures and one link http://archery.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/KNSU-paper-by-Lieu-version4.pdf

Personally....... ?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Just back in from the range..... You are correct, carbon arrows and aluminum arrows both oscillate at certain frequencies which impact their reaction (flex) to the shot; that is the nature of the beast. I am not stating that node tuning carbons does not help, especially if you're trying to improve from a 58x shooter to a 60x on a blue face or if you're chasing that ever-elusive 30x on a Vegas face. 

What I am stating is 1) node tuning is not as critical for carbon arrows as it is for aluminum arrows (as you mentioned) due to the faster recovery rate of carbons and 2) if a shooter is still at the point of becoming a consistent 50x shooter, there are other, more practical things, that can be done that will help that shooter reach those goals much more efficiently. 

As an FYI, when I took one of GRIV's seminars several years back, his "arrow voodoo" consisted primarily of ensuring proper techniques were used during the initial build, changing out knocks frequently, and routine straightening of pin bushings. Only a very cursory talk was given to node tuning as he stated it was falling out of favor for other methods which had a greater impact on performance.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Node, Smode.. if you can't answer a question so that it is understood by your audience, then you better rethink the answer.. 

Like most of the stuff discussed on here node tuning is applicable to 0.00001% of all archers, the rest aren't good enough to notice.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

ron w said:


> In all reality, to say it doesn't help is to deny that "physics" exits....which then, node science would be "arrow voodoo".
> just as those who believe it does no good on carbon arrows. carbon arrows are marketed by spine value, just like aluminum arrows,...... because they flex when shot. maye not as much as an aluminum shaft and maybe they flex and return to column faster than an aluminum shaft, the fact remains that they flex, too,..... which means.... they will have a node frequency, just as aluminum shafts do.


To be clear, I mentioned Griv's "voodoo" quote with the same intent that he offered it - a touch of humor to illustrate the arcane nature of the topic. No one is denying the the physics at work, it can be seen on any number of slow motion videos. It is not so complicated that it's cause or explanation is in question. If you think so, you've underestimated your peers here. 

I think we all agree that in a hierarchy of tuning, it probably falls behind proper static spine selection, arrow length for best dynamic spine, and possibly even after vane size/offset. It sounds to me that in your passion to provide factually accurate and relevant information in this forum, you are conflating the recognition of node tuning being at a very fine level, such that many archers feel they would not see a measurable improvement in scores and therefore question whether such tuning is worthwhile; with denying the phenomenon exists. 

As you have with many other topics, you have provided an excellent explanation and your opinion of it's value. Reasonable people can disagree with it's value. That's all that is happening here.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

JAVI said:


> Node, Smode.. if you can't answer a question so that it is understood by your audience, then you better rethink the answer..
> 
> Like most of the stuff discussed on here node tuning is applicable to 0.00001% of all archers, the rest aren't good enough to notice.


Mr. JAVI, glad you're still popping in ever so often...more often would be nicer  What I had figured, not whole lot are good enough to take advantage of or would no the difference of node tuning.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron, no one really knocking your explanation and it's good to know someone has knowledge of things others don't. 

I grew up Traditional. Node tuning goes back to Traditional. I wasn't aware of it back then, 50 years ago. Back then, a little high and little right or left was the "tuning art" and then shoot your butt off until you knew how to hold for distance. Mom was cleaning house a while back and gave me a plastic bag full of stuff. Two items in the bag; My old shooting glove and a 1" thick piece of chalk. Anyone what to guess what the chalk was for?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> .....and a 1" thick piece of chalk. Anyone what to guess what the chalk was for?


Marking your foot position on the line?? Just a guess....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Nope. Talking Traditional bow.....


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

montigre said:


> Marking your foot position on the line?? Just a guess....


Ha ha lol 
Dead body outline after getting rid of the competition. More than one way to win I reckon

Blue X


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Blue X said:


> Dead body outline after getting rid of the competition. More than one way to win I reckonBlue X


LOL!! Wow, you play tough...lol!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Great answer, dead body, but nope. Hint; looking and hanging on.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Let's see, if it's not for the feet, and it's not for the body, would it be for those delicate little fingies??


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Another; if you can't see and talcum bag


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me with our indoor bows right now with little to no nock travel and perfectly synced cams and releases that have little to no torque on the string the arrows are leaving the bow virtually perfect. Especially with low poundage indoor target bows the arrow just isn't being bent that much by the powerstroke so having the arrow length perfect so the nodes line up isn't that big a deal as with a traditional shooter shooting off the shelf.

For you being a new indoor shooter I would think that finding a way to group tune your arrows to hit the same hole at 20 yards would be the biggest confidence building thing you could do. I have never spent the time to node tune a carbon arrow but I can say that on many occasions I have group tuned my arrows to hit the same hole and I have used a variety of shafts and point weights and have always been able to get there.

Me personally I have a hooter shooter that I use to group tune my arrows to hit the same hole and after wards I have shot a 300 58x with the bare shafts, they were full length xxx shafts with 150 grain points.

Now if you don't have access to a hooter shooter then why couldn't you shoot at 20 yards with your new xxx shafts as bare shafts one arrow at a time and turn the nock until you are hitting the center with it and then move on to the next arrow and shoot it until you are hitting the center of the x. Then fletch up your arrows, this to me is something that a guy can do to add confidence to his shooting by the performance of the arrow hitting the spot without feathers.


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## srb99 (Jun 16, 2006)

Strodav said:


> I am an engineer, but believe the same as montigre, " .... too much work and not enough shooting .... "


Ditto that.
Spine test 'em, fletch'em, paper tune, bare shaft tune, walk back tune. 
Oh, and then practice a bunch and work on form, shot execution, etc. And then get to shoots on the weekends.
If only I didn' have to work, take care of the family, and sleep.....


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

I'd forgotten about this thread...thanks for the responses...JAVI and I worked it out...all is well. Carry on..


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

1) I apologize for somehow missing the "tense" posts of this thread (computer was in the shop for a week....iPhone is harder to read every post of every thread. Had I been more on the ball, things might not have gotten so heated. My bad.

2) I really don't see a lot of anyone being "wrong" here. Most of what has been said has been factual, if not tactile.
3) You won't find many top pros that agree with each other on everything. We must respect everyone's opinion, even if we don't agree with it. 
E.G. I don't believe in node tuning arrows. I acknowledge that there IS science behind the idea. If you believe in node tuning, your not "wrong", your just placing more importance on it than I do. That doesn't mean you can't explain the science...as detailed as you want. (It IS an advanced forum).

4) PLEASE keep things close to topic. Lets try not to get into huge discussions about what are really tangents.


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