# Pro form?????



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

If not appropriate, just delete....

I couldn't find the form thread I wanted... Pic of Tim Gillingham at Florida where he won, shooting 28 up (428) in Pro, all unknown distance, 50 yards max, but a bit more is not unusual. The top X number of Pro shooters don't win, just get in the Shoot Off. Tim finished with 490 and 20 Xs. 

Does his form look correct?
Note his peep, shrink tube covered. And Tim has his glove. I've seen him with white, tan and now black with two finger...
Looks like many of the top boys missed some 10s! BUT chomped on the 12s. Tim, 19 of 40, and Levi, 18 of 40. On the ASA ProAm tour all targets have 5.00" ten rings and 1.500" bonus rings.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

He's got like a 32" draw length... he can shoot however he wants LOL.... but seriously, if this were posted on one of those "how's my form" threads, the immediate complaint would probably be that he's leaning back some. That wouldn't be my criticism - you kind of have to lean back at least some the heavier your bow is - since he could outshoot me with both eyes closed. 

Apart from shooting, TG is a gearhead and for that reason I feel a special affinity there. Most true gearheads are like myself and are better with gear and tuning, etc., than we can actually shoot. TG is an exception; he can do both...

As for his form, I have no real statement to make about it...

JMO,

LS


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Im figuring out that over the last year or so,, that a "CORRECT" form is a very relative term. 
Its different for each archer. Take Reo's form, it is different than Levi, than Chance, than Cousins, than everyone else's. 

For what its worth, (my opinion only) there is NO PEFECT FORM, reason is that every single archers body composition, arm length, torso, shoulder width and all is different. Its all in the way we position it to match whatever DL we shoot at. Perfect form is the form that is most repeatable and gives us the best accuracy. REPEATABLE FORM, I think is what matters most, not WHAT form we choose to set up the shot with.

Looks to me like Gill maybe prefers to shoot a medium wrist position vs a low like many others. Obviously whatever "form" he has works for him. And that is all that matters.

I dont know about that black and white thing though,,,,,,LOL.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

If by "correct" you mean the classic "T" form most teach, then I'd say it's close.
If it were a NEW shooter who was having problems with his/her shooting, most coaches would suggest less lean.
That "T" form is a GREAT foundation that eliminates the problem of a coach having to find a custom form for each and every student. When there ARE form problems, it isn't a new issue for each student, it's a variation of a "problem" seen many times over, and the "fix" is already known.
Once the form is known, if a more advanced shooter wishes to try something different, and they find it works for them, it's hard to say it isn't "correct".
I think the idea of "correct" form is something we should be teaching beginners, but not something they can't grow/evolve from.
There are just WAY too many high level pros out there that have moved from the classic T to say you MUST shoot that form in order to do well. But for the beginner it is a great place to start.


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Yup I agree for sure, it is definitely the best form to emulate for a beginning archer. That way there are less, "things" that need a fixin' to get the archer to an improved form that will result in better accuracy for them.

As for Pros, I find it interesting to see all the different variations. Watching the Vegas shoot and Lancaster shoots on the net was a real treat. You could really see alot of variations, in the way they held, set up, drew, follow through. The common thread though is most are real close to that T posture. Unless they have body composition issues. (another thread topic I may start)

As for beginning archers or others, whenever I am shooting at shop I see many archers that are obviously frustrated with their accuracy. This is almost always tied directly with their form (or maybe just lack of shooting time overall). 
It's usually leaning way back, too long of DL, bent bow arm, that snake-choke-death-grip on the bow, punching the trigger, no follow through, it goes on and on.....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

unclejane said:


> He's got like a 32" draw length... he can shoot however he wants LOL.... but seriously, if this were posted on one of those "how's my form" threads, the immediate complaint would probably be that he's leaning back some. That wouldn't be my criticism - you kind of have to lean back at least some the heavier your bow is - since he could outshoot me with both eyes closed.
> 
> Apart from shooting, TG is a gearhead and for that reason I feel a special affinity there. Most true gearheads are like myself and are better with gear and tuning, etc., than we can actually shoot. TG is an exception; he can do both...
> 
> ...


part of his Facebook post; "I was shooting PSE Dominator Max with Drive Cams to accommodate my 33.5 " draw. 67 lbs with a 28.5" ,465 grain Gold Tip Triple X with 150 grain points."


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> part of his Facebook post; "I was shooting PSE Dominator Max with Drive Cams to accommodate my 33.5 " draw. 67 lbs with a 28.5" ,465 grain Gold Tip Triple X with 150 grain points."


Well, ok, now you just got mean and went and made me even more jealous LOL.... can you imagine how much energy is stored in almost 70lbs at 33.5"? That's almost unreal to think about. 

As for the T form, that plus back tension are the two main takeaways I got from shooting oly recurve. I never got good enough with recurve to really hit anything, but it certainly taught me techniques and form that help me a bunch in compound...

LS


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Tim's KE provides a significant advantage in 3-D, it's quite amazing how flat his arrow flight is.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Does his form look correct?


Yes, it absolutely does look correct. Textbook? Not totally. But it is what works for Tim. 

This points to what I believe is the number one common denominator among top level archers; they are innovators. They find precisely what works for them, whether it be through form or mechanics. Often times the nuts and bolts of that is hard to put into words. That's why the top archers shoot instead of write books.

You want to win like Tim? Find your own shot, don't duplicate his. :cheers:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What it amounts to, like Laz noted, correct is correct for you. 

What I like to do is take something apart. Look over the whole of the picture. I noted Tim's peep and glove, but there is more. Look at his stab set up; His back bars, long. The right one way right is one of them eye ball illusion things. Again, his long back bars and the number of weights. If I used back bars that long I'd between them  His hand position, way up, not unlike many top shooters.

Someone noted his KE, but only true to a certain extent. Tim is still regulated to 290 fps. Figure 50 yards, 290 fps, the difference in vertical impact for a 280 gr arrow and a 465 gr arrow won't be significant. But the poor 3D target.....

As for back tension, I'm rather sick of it, but then with Tim, a picture from last year isn't much different and he's using what appears to be a index release.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

As for back tension with a hinge, I no longer have a dog in that race (since I've switched back to a pull through release full time I now literally use BT as a 'firing engine'). 

As for Tim Gillingham's bow, I believe a comment was made during the Lancaster classic that it "looked like something out of Predator". And well I guess it kind of does......

LS


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Hmmm, seems like back bars mounted low like that lowers the center of gravity on the bow and will it make the hold more stable. 
I understand the principle here, as Longer back bars with less weight will have the same effect as a short bar with more weight, (physics and leverage) plus the advantage of a lighter mass weight bow overall could help with shoulder fatigue at longer shoots, aiming, or a fast paced 5 spot game. Who knows....
Whatever he does, it works for him. Thats all that matters.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> Someone noted his KE, but only true to a certain extent. Tim is still regulated to 290 fps. Figure 50 yards, 290 fps, the difference in vertical impact for a 280 gr arrow and a 465 gr arrow won't be significant. But the poor 3D target.....


Is this one of those 1 pin to 60yd bows?  



elkbow69 said:


> Hmmm, seems like back bars mounted low like that lowers the center of gravity on the bow and will it make the hold more stable.
> I understand the principle here, as *Longer back bars with less weight will have the same effect as a short bar with more weight,* (physics and leverage) plus the advantage of a lighter mass
> Whatever he does, it works for him. Thats all that matters.


Though the two bars may impart the same moment on the bow, the CG on the longer bar is further from the bow, hence it will have more inertia to resist bow acceleration in the horizontal plane. Think spinning skater with arms out then pulled in.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

A great coach once told me that "Classic form is just a place to start". Obviously, guys like Tim, Reo, etc. have figured out things that work better for them than the classic form.

Good form is nothing more than the form that the archer can repeat on every shot. Over the years, we've figured out things that work well for most archers, such as alignment, anchors, draw length, etc. If an archer is having a problem with repeating their form on every shot, we can suggest those things that have proven to work more often than not. Sometimes they work, sometimes not. The better pro's have figured out what works for them. It doesn't mean that it will work for someone else. 

Figuring out what works is partly what all this practice is about. 

JMHO,
Allen


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

the best form is between the ears


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Someone noted his KE, but only true to a certain extent. Tim is still regulated to 290 fps. Figure 50 yards, 290 fps, the difference in vertical impact for a 280 gr arrow and a 465 gr arrow won't be significant. But the poor 3D target.....





Rick! said:


> Is this one of those 1 pin to 60yd bows?


Lord! And I'm still trying to find a bow that is 1 pin to 30 yards. :mg:

Granted, I worded it a little loose. The trajectory paths aren't going to be all that different for a 280 gr arrow held to a max of 290 fps and a 465 gr arrow held to a max of 290 fps, so no real advantage....


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