# Linear Press/ Draw Board/ Shooting Machine



## sues (Apr 25, 2007)

Very nice love to have one on my work bench:set1_applaud::77:


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks got any suggestions for improvements?


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## Deer Eliminator (Jan 21, 2010)

Any free samples!:wink: nice pics hope it goes well for ya!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

What kind of samples would you like?


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## sues (Apr 25, 2007)

Looks good to me love to try one


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

That computer program is awesome. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that. The only problem you have now is how to make yours look as good as the pic. LOL. I know a good fabricator welder. :shade: 

I would like to now what that attachment for the bow to rest in is made of and where to get one. I need one of those. Not the steel part just the horse shoe looking thing. Also, you mentioned two bearings one at each end. I see the bearing block by the hand wheel but where is the other and what type?

Thanks, 

JT


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## NGONYAMA (May 24, 2010)

That's one A++++++ idea you have there.Why would you need those riser supports for a linear press though, unless it's for a work station.Do you think a EZ press could be adapted to the same.I don't know it's worm gear is tough enough for reverse pulling.


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## GlennMac (Oct 21, 2006)

Does anyone know what the wheel (handle) is called or where they can be brought from ?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

GlennMac said:


> Does anyone know what the wheel (handle) is called or where they can be brought from ?


http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/Hand-Wheel-5-/H3472

5-inch diameter hand wheel with 1/2-inch bore for $8.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

BowhunterJt asked about the second bearing I will post more pics to show were they are but basically they are bearing bronze bolted to the end of the extension tube on all 4 sides. They are 4 inches long and 1.25 wide mounted with flat head cap screws. They ride inside the other tube with just enough clearance for a good slip fit and to allow in the material deviation of the tubing. Like is said I will post some exploded views showing there function and fit. 

Glad to see Nuts & Bolts post on this thread I have the utmost respect for his knowledge.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Oh forgot the bow holder is going to be made out of either Nylon plastic or Delrin both of these are consider high impact plastics with very good durability neither material will mark the bow either.


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## jlnel (Dec 22, 2009)

very nice.. beyond my skills, but me like!!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

NGONYAMA said:


> That's one A++++++ idea you have there.Why would you need those riser supports for a linear press though, unless it's for a work station.Do you think a EZ press could be adapted to the same.I don't know it's worm gear is tough enough for reverse pulling.


The caution bar is there just in case you was to accidentally drop your bow we all have accidents. I'm not sure what size thread is in the EZ press but if you can tell me what size the threaded rod is I can give you an approximate tensile strength of the threaded rod and nut.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Oh forgot the bow holder is going to be made out of either Nylon plastic or Delrin both of these are consider high impact plastics with very good durability neither material will mark the bow either.


I would like one or to know how you made it if you would please. That is the nicest one I seen yet!

Thanks 

JT


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## mrbillbrown (Sep 30, 2009)

Just a dumb question but wouldn't the nylon/derlin be a little "slick" to hold the limb tips securely? I used a piece of similar nylon/derlin to make a plug for my 30 round Pmag (to limit the round count to 7 for hunting) because it was really slick. I would think you'd need a little "grip" on there. Just a thought


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

The part made out of delrin will be the bow holder for when it is used as a draw machine. The fingers for the press will be made out of still and rubber dipped.








This is the part that will be Delrin.


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## mrbillbrown (Sep 30, 2009)

DOH!!! I see it now. Sorry for the sudden dose of dumb*****. Thanks for taking care of me. Great design by the way. Obviously way over my head.....


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

No problem if your capable of making a delrin plug for your pmag you could tackle something a little harder with some good prints and some good advice.


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## Rock Steady (Dec 26, 2009)

Very nice.

Have you considered having a single main mount so that the complete unit could swivel, then mirror your two tool posts(?) so that you could set one side up as the draw board and the other side as the press. That way you can check your cams etc and then just sing the unit 180 degrees and press the bow to adjust cables etc.

This would also allow a bit of adjustment as shooting machine as well, give you some left and right swing to aim with (a bit of thought and the mount could probably handle elevation as well).

My unfinished press has these capabilities, once I make the attachments.

Michael


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

To do that I would have to have a deep work bench to clear the press as it swings I don't have that so I will have to pull 4 pins and swap it. As far as left to right adjustment that can be done with the windage adjust knob on the attachment for the shooting machine. Great idea though love to see your press.

The knob on the very end adjust left to right.


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## Rock Steady (Dec 26, 2009)

If the mount swiveled in both the X & Y axis you could swing it around and down so to reduce the diameter of the arc and miss the junk on the workbench. I did think of using something like a 2" RAM Mount, basically a 2" diameter ball in a split clamp but it was not smooth enough or controlled enough (if that makes sense).










LINK

My press is still unpainted and a work in progress but I will post some pictures tonight (I am supposed to be cleaning the shed because the house is on the market).

Michael


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

My worries with that would be stability during firing the bow but if it was single swivel then you could lock it down more firmly. I still like the idea though wish I had a larger bench.:teeth:

can't wait to see your press. Good luck with home sale!


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## Rock Steady (Dec 26, 2009)

Here are a couple of photo's. It was a proof of concept job, so it still needs some work.

I have it mounted on the end of a long bench in the middle of my workshop so spinning it round to access different side of the cams etc is no problem.

I just use a battery drill to run it in and out till its close and then just use a socket spanner for fine control, will put a hand wheel on it one day.

My plan was to make a shooter attachment for the opposite side. Been under the weather a lot this year so I have not spent as much time as I would liked in the shed or hunting.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Looks good the bolt heads that sticking up were the two tubes meet are those lock down bolts or are they there to take up the slack? 

I know what ya mean about being under the weather same here every time I think I'm getting better some one else gives it back to me. Get well brother.


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## Rock Steady (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks.

You would not believe how hard it is to find nestable steel tube over here so I made do with what I had available at the time.

The small bolt heads locate Teflon strips between the inside of the outer tube and the outside of the inner tubing. I also put brass strips at the threaded end of the inner tube, between the two lots of guide strips, the inner tube runs in and out smoothly and remains square under load. 

I did see a thread on AT a year or so ago that had a press with a 360 degree solid mount system, I will try and dig it up.

Michael


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Great idea looks really good. I will be using something similar in mine instead of teflon I'm using bearing bronze. 

My only concern with that mount is stability during the bow being shot. I'm looking for guaranteed repeatability for the shooting machine so to me with a solid mount such as having two legs mount firmly down to a table with no movement seems to be more stable than a single contact point. Single point contact works as a pivot point for vibration and shock.


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## RamRock (May 22, 2008)

Very nice plans buddy, you have done your homework! i wouldent worry too much about a pivot, of all the times iv used a EZ delux iv never NEEDED to press a bow verticaly, its just nicer to use as a bowVice that way
Will the contact point for the shooter have some sort of clamping to Hold the bow in place? Excelant design


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks as far as mounting it to the shooter there will be an attachment similar to the Hooter Shooter with a strap in th front and a padded bar to keep the bow from falling when shot.


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## deadeye1001 (Sep 16, 2010)

I had the same idea, but you are much further along than I am. I am still in the design stage. I like your design alot, very similar to what I have in mind. I was thinking about keeping the bow stationary and pulling the string back instead. I just thought it might be a little more stable that way. Was also going to have my bow/string orientation opposite from how you have it setup. I was also going to have the handwheel face the operator instead of sticking out on the end (use a worm gear). I thought that would make it easier to watch the bow during the draw cycle and by moving the handwheel you would not have to reach in front of the arrow to crank it back. I suppose the ultimate would be to have an orbital motor on a remote hand switch so you could run the draw board/shooting machine hands free and watch everything during the draw. 

Looking forward to seeing your completed machine. Good luck!!!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

A motor drive would be nice something like a small hight torque motor. My only concerns would be some way of a fail safe just in case the motor went past full draw.


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## SILVATICUS (Jan 18, 2008)

Linear actuator ! They can be set up to run as pulse or to full extension . I put one on my press and it s awesome . It ll spoil you HAHA . But you could use one and either customize it to your draw length and have it mounted so it maxes out at your length then you would nt have ot worry about it NOT stopping .Or you could use the pulse . I use the pulse it only runs as long as you hold the button ,actually stops fast and have had no issues Been running it a while now and so far no complaints . But seeing this makes me wanna build another . If you go with an actuator spend the extra and get the higher grade remotes The one that came with mine could also change channels on the television HAHA Now that s scary I never put the batteries in it ! I too am interested in the delrin mount for the bow . Ive been building a separate shooting machine out of stainless pipe and notched a piece of 1 1/2 in stainless in that shape then dipped it . Could ve just covered it in rubber hose like fuel line or another heavy wall hose though . It will give to the shape of the notch underneath it when the bow is drawn . Have you given thought to mounting the press station to the far left end of your work bench and using a hinge and pin system to hinge/swing it out to use the shooting machine Use the pin to lock it down when using as a press . Or far right would work as well . I made hinges on mine out of stainless pipe and built stops to keep them from over rotating .


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Sounds like a good idea I will check into it.


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## deadeye1001 (Sep 16, 2010)

Exactly. Either use a pulse mode, live switch, or setup a micro switch that is adjustable to various draw lengths.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

That is what i was thinking was a micro switch set up for a stop.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is a file for the bow holder that was requested. Any questions please ask.


View attachment BOW FINGER .pdf


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Here is a file for the bow holder that was requested. Any questions please ask.
> 
> 
> View attachment 948346


Thank you for that! You have definitely taken this fabrication a step further and I appreciate the help. I've seen a lot of these "holders" and I have not liked any of them personally, but this is top notch. Thanks.

JT


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

No problem if you have any questions let me know.


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## SILVATICUS (Jan 18, 2008)

*Actuator,Remote System ,Wiring , etc .*

Here is a list or part numbers and descriptions for the components I used and the company name address . In my opinion you can pick up the wiring kit anywhere I just ordered it because it was easier . Hope this helps somebody.


Firgelli Automations 

FA -240-S-12-24 24" stroke standard force actuator 
4 CH-RC 4 Channel remote 
El-KIT Electrical Wiring Kit


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## jimmiya (May 31, 2008)

How are the attachments attached? I was thinking of making the attachment on sleeves for easy swap outs.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

The tubes are interchangeable. The tubing is nestable which means they slide inside each other like a receiver and hitch on a truck. They are held in location with clevis pins.


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## mattwittman (Oct 30, 2010)

would love to make something like that but time and money suck.lol


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## JHENS87 (Nov 7, 2009)

heck of a press. if you want someone to try it out, ill pm you my address, just dont expect the press to be returned


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Nicely done. I like the attention to minute details, as the weld beads. Obviously you tried to make it as real as possible. Bravo.



f4irocket said:


> Thanks as far as mounting it to the shooter there will be an attachment similar to the Hooter Shooter with a strap in th front and a padded bar to keep the bow from falling when shot.


It shows similarity to the HS, as seen in this pic:









To give you some food for thought here is a design with High-Wrist and Low-Wrist positions:
















And the Isometric views:
















Regards,
Liviu

P.S. The hand "heel" ( bottom delrin part) can be optionally in contact or not with the bow handle, by means of an adjusting screw.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

That is some nice modeling you have done there. Did you draw the riser yourself? By the way love your design on the bow holder looks great. What software you using?


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> That is some nice modeling you have done there. Did you draw the riser yourself? By the way love your design on the bow holder looks great. What software you using?


I'm building a shooting machine as well, so I needed the riser modeled to use it in the design. It was done in SolidWorks.

Regards,
Liviu
P.S. It's of a "wrong handed" Switchback


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Nice thats what I'm using also. I haven't had time yet to throw my riser on the cmm to do a little reverse engineering but I will get to that soon. But like I said before great job designs look professional.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Nice thats what I'm using also. I haven't had time yet to throw my riser on the cmm to do a little reverse engineering but I will get to that soon.


(Tongue-in-cheek) I was hoping that you're using some other CAD program (Unigraphics, ProE...) because your model looks so good. Now I have no excuse, I have to learn ho to play with PhotoWorks... dang it...
Maybe you give me some tips...

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Any time just pm me. I was self taught also. When I get this thing made I will send you the assembly file if you want.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Any time just pm me. I was self taught also. When I get this thing made I will send you the assembly file if you want.


Thanks, and the same here.
I can sent you stuff I've done...but: one of us might be getting the short end of the stick, unless you're using SW 2008, then we're both good 

If you have SW 2009 or newer you can open my models but I won't be able to open yours. Vice-versa if you're using SW 2007 or older.
To look at them in the SW Viewer/eDrawings is not the same fun.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ya thats no good for you I'm running 2010 and about to upgrade to 2011. But I can convert mine to a step file or parasolid for you they usually open well with minimal surface loss but you will have no features for editing.


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

heres the one I built a yr ago I use it alot and it works great


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

That looks great so it looks like the concept works. Do you have any bushings in the end of the tube to keep it from twisting?


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

yes its pinned through the square tubing and through the round titanium tubing I used so it doesnt turn . "Titanium" I know its expensive but I had 6 ft of it laying around and it fit the square tubing perfect so I used it and dipped it in the rubber coating . you can see the pins in the inside of each end


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Nothing like a super expensive freebie. lol


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## swardlow (Dec 9, 2010)

that is some pretty good modeling. I work with pro/e myself. Haven't had a change to start on my own press yet though.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I use to use pro/e myself but I like the user friendliness of Solidworks I also use Catia but that is only because it's a requirement from some of my customers. If you get a chance post up some of your work love to see it.


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## deadeye1001 (Sep 16, 2010)

I love the hand mount modeling. If you guys get to making them, sign me up!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Liviu, 
Thought you would get a kick out of this I model up my take on your design and laser cut the parts out bent them up I still lack the plastic pieces out and the yokes for the mounting rod. But I went ahead and fabricated it to see if it will work with hoyt. I think the crossbar on the Hoyt will interfere but we will see. Let me know what ya think.
Thanks


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Well it won't work on my Hoyt. So I have modified a few things and I guess it's back to the laser. I had to narrow it by 1/2" and I had to move the plate to the opposite side for clearance I think this will work now. Here is the pics of the clearance issues and the new models. You need to patent this thing Liviu. Great design my friend.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Hey Liviu,
> Thought you would get a kick out of this I model up my take on your design and laser cut the parts out bent them up I still lack the plastic pieces out and the yokes for the mounting rod. But I went ahead and fabricated it to see if it will work with hoyt. I think the crossbar on the Hoyt will interfere but we will see. Let me know what ya think.


Boy,
Did I get a kick and then some. I love what you've done.

First I thought that I'm looking at my "wrist" and I couldn't figure out how come you have a pic of it (usually I first look at pictures and then read the posts, you know mechanical engineer habit).

Anyway I am impressed how you did the top 1/4" plate without knowing how it looks inside (being hidden by the plastic piece), the V shape for self aligning and two threaded holes. You've nailed it, exactly,...wow.

Now, for some more technical info:
I wanted to keep the vertical distance between the two plastic parts somewhere around 2 1/2", same as a human hand.
Also I tried to keep it as short as I could, being restricted by the "swiveling block" ( that is in fact constructed from two Spring Plunger Bases P/N 8685A12 from McMaster Carr, mounted side by side).
Considering the above, I had to make that big rectangular window at the back of the bent piece, to provide access for an Allen key (the key has to be modified, the short end trimmed even shorter).

I see that you used 1/4" material for all pieces, I have the bent one made fron 1/8" so I've used captive nuts, you've threaded yours probably (looks like 1/4-20 bolts).

Another tidbit of info... I made first the metal parts, and then I made the plastic ones and the fit wasn't quite perfect so I measured the plastic piece and remodeled/recut the top plate and it fits nice now.

How I did the plastic... 1:1 printout> glued to 3/4" piece of plastic> scroll sawed>belt sanding> table saw for 1/4" grooves on three sides> router for round edging (this one was tricky, I still have all my finger tips but there were a couple of close calls).

If I would have to do it again, I would use a milling machine at high speed, but first time around was assembling it in my garage so that's what I had available (it should've been better to do the routing before the grooving).



f4irocket said:


> You need to patent this thing Liviu.


I think that once it's posted on the web it's probably "prior art" therefore nobody can patent it anymore, not even me, but I might be wrong.
Anyway I have lots of ideeas that could be patentable, but don't think that they are moneymakers.

For example, right now I'm working on a scaled down wind tunnel with certain features (not existent on anyhing else) to see if it works the way I think it should... and if it does then... but I shouldn't dream too much about... it might not work, just as well...

Today I wasn't at my desk/laptop where I keep all the files, and I'm writing this post from the home computer, but tomorrow I'll take the laptop home (Friday is day off...woohoo) and I'll send you some files.

Cheers buddy,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks for the info on the spring plunger bases that saves a lot of time. I am going to laser out the new brackets Monday so it will fit my Hoyt. I used the 1/4 inch material because I was to lazy to throw the 1/8 material up on the machine. lol The plastic parts are ready to be machined I'm not that good with a router I would lose a finger for sure. It's much safer for me to close the door and let my cnc mill 3-d it. I'm not sure about the patent issue but i will look into it for you a little. I have 4 patents in my name were I work at and we keep a lawyer on retainer all the time so he should be able to give me some info on that. Can't wait to see your other stuff it's always cool to see other engineers designing and modeling skills. I have a few things I will send you when I get some time to send it. 

Once again i want to thank you for posting the pics of your design and all your help you have given me. Let me know if you need some machining or something done I will see what I can do to help you.
Thanks Buddy


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Thanks for the info on the spring plunger bases that saves a lot of time.


If you're going to use the spring plungers here is another little tip. Order them first (you should get them in a couple of days) then install them on a threaded bar and tight them together- they will be probably out of alignment by some degree (referenced to each other).
There are 4 combinations of doing this, so try and get the one that makes them the closest of being aligned, when they are slightly tight together (mark this combination). Now you can sand their sides that come in contact to get them aligned nice when slightly tight.
The reason behind all this, to remove any backlash/play that might be between the threaded rod and the Plunger Bases.
This way everything is tight and you can still rotate the "wrist" albeit a little harder (this is why I designed it with two bases- with just one I was afraid of too much play).

The ball screw on some CNC machinery (since you mentioned it) would have two nuts installed on it, with spring discs in between for zero backlash (or some other way of "putting" tension between the nuts). You can probably replicate this concept with a seal from a garden hose instead of spring discs.

After you have them installed, you can measure the 4 holes pattern and model the metal plates accordingly.

Here is another picture of my arrangement, that shows a big orange block. That is a cast iron piece from some scrap machinery that I salvaged. It slides and is locked in place on a dovetailed way.
The whole shooting machine is based on the parts that I saved.









Here you can see a spring pin that prevents the plate with the arched slot from rotating at all.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I will probably make them myself instead of buying them. I'm thinking i will use UHMH as a lock nut between them for the friction unit. I like the unit you are using for the attachment to the press. 
Thanks buddy


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

hello,

would you guys mind if i would use some of your plans here and build one , it wont be a carbon copy but i think i could do one in a day and post some pics of the completed project. 

Thanks TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I have no problem with it thats why I started the thread so others could build there own instead of spending a fortune on manufactured stuff that isn't exactly what they want. Are you going to build an entire press with shooting and draw machine? Can't wait to see your pics.
Thanks


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

f4irocket said:


> I have no problem with it thats why I started the thread so others could build there own instead of spending a fortune on manufactured stuff that isn't exactly what they want. Are you going to build an entire press with shooting and draw machine? Can't wait to see your pics.
> Thanks


Hello,
yes i will do a complete build Linear Press/ Draw Board/ Shooting Machine .
i have everything i would need on hand to do this kind of a project
i will post back when completed with a time frame and pics .

Thanks Again 
TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

If you need any pics of the design let me know and I will try to help you out.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is the stock list from McMaster Carr that I ordered my material. This is not all the material a lot of it I have laying around the shop. This list includes the part numbers and the price for each item. I'm pretty sure it's all correct but if you use make sure you double check it. I should have the press all welded up by next weekend. When everything is finished I will post the pics of it. 
Thanks
:teeth:

View attachment McMaster Carr stock list.pdf


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## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

f4irocket said:


> Oh forgot the bow holder is going to be made out of either Nylon plastic or Delrin both of these are consider high impact plastics with very good durability neither material will mark the bow either.


My compliments! This machine should revolutionize Bow Tuning. A true ALL-IN-ONE machine is the Tuner's dream!

Elsewhere you asked for ideas.. here's one...

We tried several different materials before deciding on UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) Poly. (for those that don't know, I didn't either). 

It machines well, is strong, not too pricey. And available in (pretty much) unlimited sizes.
As far as marking the Grip, some Mfgs use a pretty soft wood. Couple that with a 70# pull, and it puts a lot of force onto the Grip contact areas. We recommend a felt pad, etc, to save the finish. We use felt pads on both our HS and KS, as we have both in our shop.

PM me with your address, and I will send you a block of it to try.

You're good at the Computer, too, I see!

Jim


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks very much that means a lot coming from some one who has the knowledge you have about these machines. Your machine looks great to almost bought one until I decided I wanted to make all three together to save space. I like multi tasking machines as long as they are quality machines.

I have used UHMW quite a bit in the past. Thanks for the info. I was worried about Delrin being to hard. The only reason I picked it over UHMW is that it machines excellent especially when you 3-d machine it. Thanks for the offer of sending me some material but I have plenty of it laying around the shop. 

I been designing on CAD programs for almost twenty years now with most of my back ground in Aerospace so modeling my thoughts comes pretty easy.

Thanks you very much for your input.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*Pos*

hey here a couple pics i will be making a change or two in the layout but it will be worth it to me , if all goes well it maybe shootin something this weekend , have some milling i need to do on some bow holders ,, just a POS :banana::banana:
TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I finished up machining my fingers today. Started laser cutting them but my laser crapped out on me. Had revert back to the cnc mill. But any way got them done I will start on the welding the parts together this weekend. Got most every thing machined up just have to get busy welding. Yours is looking good my friend. Looks like it's going to turn out nice for you. Can't wait to see it finished. Got one question your fingers look really thick compared to some others I have seen. Is that some thing planned or are you going to machine the thickness down? 
thanks Mike


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*pos*



f4irocket said:


> Got one question your fingers look really thick compared to some others I have seen. Is that some thing planned or are you going to machine the thickness down?
> thanks Mike


i made to sets , one set out of 3/4 and one set out of 1/2 , two different styles i will try them both and see how each one applies pressure etc.. to the limbs , one in the pic is the 3/4 they are still ruff so i will smooth them up before i put them in service . 

TS2


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

3/4" are overkill! 1/2" works just fine especially after tool dip! Just my 2 cents worth.

JT


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ok here we go I have modified a few things in the design and also added a few things.

First I was thinking that when being used as a draw machine I wanted some way to repeat the point at which the bow is drawn back. So I was looking around the shop at DRO system that is on my milling machine and thought that would be perfect if it wasn't so expensive. Well I found a website that sales a digital scale with a readout real cheap. Here is the link for the website http://www.anytimesale.com/servlet/the-245/35"-DIGITAL-DRO-TABLE/Detail. It's really a digital caliper with a remote readout. 

The next thing is i added a 4 inch long section at the end of the main tube for extra room to mount oiless bronze bushings. The tubing is 2.500 inch square with 1/4" walls. This allows for the bearings to be 1/8" thick and it has eight of them for a large bearings surface to maintain stability when machine is at maximum stroke. I have alot of it fabricated up just got to finish welding up a few things hope fully by next weekend I can post pics and then I will post the drawings for everyone that has asked. So far I have around $200.00 in materials for this build including the digital scale. This is way cheaper than the EZ press and it does plenty more for a 3rd of the price. 
Thanks Mike


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is the bushing end fabbed up as you can see it turned out pretty good. It is fairly tight over the 1 3/4 tubing but it will loosen up after being used for a while. The tubing that McMaster Carr sales actually is pretty parallel and the thickness is constant. I was worried that it it would vary to much to do this accurately. It seems be be taking me forever to do this project but with the Holidays and busy with work has slowed me down a lot hopefully I can finish it soon.


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## Spikealot (May 27, 2009)

EFN awesome man !


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks man.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> It seems be be taking me forever to do this project but with the Holidays and busy with work has slowed me down a lot hopefully I can finish it soon.


LOL...

Welcome to the world of steel fabrication and welding.

JT


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Been doing it for over 20 years some times it is slow just didn't want any one to give up on waiting on it. So did you get your bow holder made fro what I sent you JT? 

There has been a lot of people asking for drawings for this press. I have a question is EZ press going to have a fit if I post drawings and try to sue me like they have people who make fingers. The way I see it as long as the prints are not sold there is no patent infringement is this correct?


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

I figured you were. There is no problem with posting plans of YOUR build/design. There is no problem with helping others to build their own by posting this information either. I think you are doing a good job so far and I am enjoying the technical equipment you are adding to your machine. 

The only problem I see is that your going to have to be a great fabricator to make your press look as good as those pic you've posted. LOL...

I'm sure you are and it'll look great!

JT


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Bow Holder... no I did not. The Derlin isn't so expensive but the machining is. I'm not paying for that. If you can make me one let me know with a pm and a quote. 

Thank you for the info.

JT


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I pmd you on the bow holder. 

My welding skills are a little rusty but I been practicing before I weld just to get back into rhythm again with it. It's amazing how well the computer can make something look so great and how easy it is when you make it and it looks like Fido's rear end. lol!!!!!! I wonder what it would cost to get this thing powder coated any ideas on paint or powder coat for this?
Thanks


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

If you prep the steel right and have minimal painting skills I think you could do an exceptional job painting. Below is a link to one of my photo albums of a bow press I finished recently. I think the paint came out really nice.

JT


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

opps forgot the link;

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/album.php?albumid=5829&attachmentid=931078


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Looks great.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> I wonder what it would cost to get this thing powder coated any ideas on paint or powder coat for this?
> Thanks


If you cannot find an alternative, send the parts over and I would gladly powder coat them at no charge. Just see how much the cost would be to have them shipped to Edmonton, Alberta, and if it's worth it.
We have (at work) a paint booth and oven, but we use only two colors: black paint that has a nice smooth texture when cured, and yellow that is glossy.

On December 31st I decided to try out my shooting machine to see how well it shoots and to start the new year with a positive attitude (so to speak).
After tinkering with it for a while, it shot the same arrow three times from exactly 77 feet, in a line pattern like this "/" with 5/16" increments between the holes (the third shot was in the middle, between the first two, ripping the paper).
I am pretty satisfied with the results for now. It seems that there is a bit too much friction between the handle and the rather soft polyethylene grip.

Here are some pics of the whole contraption:









You can see in the following picture, a piece of wire from a coat hanger that I used to guide the bow.
At full draw there is about 1/16" clearance between the riser and the wire.


















Soon it will be taken apart and painted (yellow and black scheme of course).
I wanted to make sure that everything is OK before painting it.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Is there an adjustment on the bow holder to pivot L-R ?
This has been a very interesting thread watching you guys build this machine.:thumbs_up


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu man it looks super good. I like your fine adjustment block on the rear of the machine. Can't wait to see it powder coated. Great job man.

Do you not like the polyethylene would you have used something different like Delrin or maybe PET? polyethylene is the same as UHMW correct?

Thanks for the powder coat offer.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Purka On my drawings there is a knob on the end of the the attachment near the hand wheel side of the press that if you turn it will move the attachment in and out basically your windage on the bow. If this is confusing I can post some pics just let me know.
Thanks


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Do you not like the polyethylene would you have used something different like Delrin or maybe PET? polyethylene is the same as UHMW correct?


The polyethylene that I used it's not the same as UHMW. It has too much friction. I tried to polish it but it's not possible being on the soft side.
The surface now has kind of a fuzzy feeling to the touch. I should've used Delrin or UHMW but I don't have any material available.

Right now is 5:00 p.m. and everybody's gone, so I'll try again with some lubrication (I'm shooting at work where we have a 70,000 s.f. warehouse).
Plenty of room, and if everything keeps steady, will gradually move further from the target, eventually shooting from over 200 ft. Kinda anxious about it.

Cheers,
Liviu
P.S. I wonder if I would be able to see the target (3'x3' stacked cardboard) from that distance... hmmm... have to think about it.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

So it's durometer is lower than UHMW thats interesting. See I was worried that the Delrin was to hard and may mark the bow. One other guy on here said they done test and that UHMW had the best test results. I just don't like machining it because it's stringy and it pushes away from the cutter so bad.


Can't wait to see your results on the longer shots.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

the whole conversation between you guys is just more than impressive. Several weeks ago I offered my YCB hunting-archery club that I could give them a shooting machine (with readout as well) they just need to find a shop to fabricate the pieces. After running through this tread I definitely changed my mind, both of you have interesting aproaches worth to consider, especialy like the combo concept. With my nx6 (unigraphics) I can manipulate any file types if you could start me up with some data.
Getting back to the patents, not that so simple, cost time and money (starting in 5 digits US$), and the first 12 months its open (not your) anyway, this what I was suprised as well. Large scale companies is a different story but as an individual, you must estimate your ratio (your pocket).
I had couple of concepts, one sight, one release, and the latest was a cable roller to replace the cable slides, might be a brite future but not worth the hassle w/patents. Im a designer (from manufacturing), I don't have access to machines, all my old collegues (who survived up to today) were busy at the endof the year , finally gave up with all the big ideas, got myself a pair of rollers and placed the design available to public.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I have no problem sending you my models. Right now I'm waiting to post all this after I finish the build just to make sure everything is safe. Don't want any one getting hurt because of a mistake that I may have made. But as soon as I do I will pm you or you can keep checking back in here. 

Thanks for the info on the patent. It's amazing what a patent cost the last one my company filed for was close to $11,000.00 and it took forever to get it.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

O.K. it's 6:45 and I did the test. It was so-so, will post some pictures tomorrow.

I've shot about 6 arrows and took a picture of the target after each shot. The pattern is still like this "/".
There must be a cetain variable that makes it shoot consistently along that line (maybe someting like a little twist in the release, or the finger pressure/angle on the trigger).

Anyway I'm not using any kind of stabilizer... it could get better with one installed.

As for the bow holder material, UHMW has a low coeficient of friction, and of course Teflon has an even lower one at 0.04 on steel which is pretty low (to give a grasping example, if memory serves, steel on ice has a 0.02 coef. of friction).
Therefore I'm considering buying some Teflon tubing (3/4" O.D.- 5/8" I.D.), spliting it in half along the axis and covering the polyethylene holder to see if there is some improvement.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Are you shooting the same arrow every time or 6 different ones also I have read on here how rotating the nock on each arrow will differ its impact point. I think I would use one arrow until it i got it to repeat it hole for hole. 

If it's the finger pressure on the release then it's time to design a remote firing system sounds like fun. lol


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

now, relating to that "/" hole pattern, 
at my design (would be more machined larger parts and definitelly more cost effective) I built all arround a concept how to keep the riser vertical, consistently, shot after shot regardless of the floor?! how could I make it swivel-tilting the bow (up/down adjustment) but follow the vertical plane ?! And, after many (theoretical)investigation got back to the start, how to measure that vertical plane? With long level from HomeDepot? forget it. I even bought myself a Starret pro bouble level for reference. 
So, how can U:
1. hold the bow at the grip consistent vertical? still @ my design level, but I put 1+1 teflon spring loaded pressure pad on the riser , not proven yet and might happen there will be differences between brand names...
2. make sure to control the vertical plane (through 3 points= D-loop and the 2 cam centers) or at least know where is it related to some horizontal face what U can more accurately confirm....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

here is a tip: are U sure the machine didn't jumped and its heavy enough to stay steady? looking in to your pictures I would say strong as a tank, but never know ?!
take some lazer pointer and duck tape it somewhere on the machine (maybe right beside where U clamp the bow) after aiming the dot on some further wall. mark that point on the wall. Do some test shots. go back and chack, if the point is still on the mark I was wrong


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

To me it doesn't matter if the bow is is perpendicular with the floor in my mind as long as the bow repeats back to the same position it doesn't matter? the only reason you would need perfect vertical alignment would be to set sights. But that is not what a shooting machine is for it's for repeatability to remove the human error out of consistently draw the bow back to the same point on the wall of the cam so it can be tuned for repeatability. But if that is what your wanting to do there are lasers that project lines in 3 axis that you could align the the cams with the center of the d-loop. I'm interested in seeing your floating bow holder system it sounds very interesting. 
Thanks
Mike


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I agree with you in all aspects. 
I built my concept based on vertical plane, regardless of perpendicular-or not- to the floor ( Its still just a concept). This for a reason to make that machine shootable indoors and outdoors. 
Again I have a believe (beside I never saw close any shooting machine working only from pictures) in "French tuning" method as a most accurate way of tuning the bow and arrow together. Based on assumption we already have the bow and the arrow, might not be a perfect fit but how to make these things work together  on multiple distances as FITA or Field.
I didn't got the smaller details yet as how to hold the bow, or where and how the release will fly away (after execute the shot) and things like that. My rough estimate was that the fabrications might cost about 1000 bucks (here in Canada) what Im considering a lot high. For a this reason I would step back from my way and maybe taking details from your approach but still following the straight line. As I sad I like the combination of bow press, draw board and shooting machine in one unit, what I give you a full credit its not easy to combine without casualties


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Now i understand you would have to do that for French tuning. That is going to be difficult especially to repeat it. Man I'm going to have to think about this one for a little while to see what I can come up with. You got me highly intrigued though can't wait to see your design. I could see taking my design and Liviu design on the bow holder and making an adjustable mount for the bow holder so it can be twicked to when the bow is at full draw it would be plumb. The important thing with this is repeatability of the bow in the bow holder. Which I think with Liviu design is very highly possible. His design is the best bow holder I have ever seen and I will be making one to mount to my machine. 

As far as cost depending n how much machining is involved. The if everything is held to tight tolerances and if there are some complicated parts to be machined it can drive the cost up considerably. I have seen some parts that the customer thought would be a couple hundred dollars but set up time and 3-d programming on the part turned it into a couple of grand.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

we are building a machine, why not implement all the advanced features from beginning?
I like Liviu design as well on that bow holder, your approach to slide the squeare profiles on those brass wedges and the overall idea to combine more functionality....
getting back to a machine;
My club has maybe 60-70 acress of woods, 2 separate 3D courses, a Filed course and 2 separate FITA one as open football field the other we cleared the forest arround, plus the indoor range. Nice place to practice, but we don't have actually no equipment for tunning. 
My goal is tot build a machine what shall shoot not only 20y, but 50y (in one clamping), also 30meters, 50, 70 and 90 meters. We won't gain much if the set of arrows will hit the same hole on let say 30y, what about the rest of 35 or 20 or 50? here comes the shapes as "/" or "\" or "(" or ")"  
I want the arrow to hit the same vertical line (the edge of the green 1" painter tape what Im aming to) on all distances, and only than I would be satisfied and say yes, the bow (and arrows) is set and ready to go. This means need to alter the bow (rest), the sight and the arrows to a level cooperating together.
If we could set the equipment with a machine, we shall be able to learn how to repeat that ourself with minimum deviation.  what is the hardest part yet comming.
Not really the 3D CNC maching is my concern but a precision boring, welding-milling and lathe work what needs to be outsourced, and how to keep and control the plane (in my garage where I would be assembling the thing), vertical or horisontal in order to control the precision. 
wow, lost my nails typing but still so much to say


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## ManHunterUSMC (Sep 13, 2010)

That's amazing stuff you two! I am looking into getting my school paid for throught the VA before I use the GI Bill and so far I've really been seeing a lot of possiblities out there that could get me into this sort of business. You guys are my heros right now! Metal Fabricating just blows my mind, but in a good way. I really want to learn it and get my hands dirty doing so. Thanks for your thread I subscribed!!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Sounds like you got one heck of a club man. Like i said before can't wait to see your design. 

thanks ManhunterUSMC good look with your schooling.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I've been (was !!!) in manufacturing since '82, in design '96, with UG '99 and still * stack with the problem * how to grab the bow and keep it in stabil position shoot after shoot and this all within resonable budget...


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

OK!

Lots of activity here, so I'm not going to quote any previous posts, but I'll try and refer to all the points raised.

First, let's post the pics as promised:

Shot #1









Shot #2









Shot #3 (same hole as #2). Notice the arrow is stuck in deeper in the target.









Shot #4









Mambo #5 (he he)









It was the same arrow shot every time (I wasn't clear in the previous post) and you can see the "/" pattern clearly.
Maybe somebody can recognize it as an effect of a certain cause (bow tilt, bow twist...I don't know).

As for the alignment repetability of th bow, I mentioned in an earlier post the guiding wire, but it seems that it's not quite working.
It was some spur of the moment kinda' thing. Here is a picture of the Bow @ Draw. The wire is clearly visible:









The machine is heavy, at about 150 lbs (the sliding blocks can be easily taken apart and legs folded to fit in the back of an SUV) and doesn't move.
There are some design considerations and restrictions that I went through, and if f4irocket is OK with it I can get into more details.
I don't want to hijack the thread with my "tribulations" 

Anyhow... the idea of the laser point is excellent, and I'm going to use it, at least to remove that variable from the equation.
Furthermore it relates very close to one of mine (again some food for thought for DIY people here):
remove the scope from the bow and attach a laser pointer to the riser that can be quickly incrementally adjustable for 20, 30 ,...,70 feet (think a bike derailer lever/handle grip, and cable control type of design)

My train of thought on the bow holder started constrained by the parts I had, and I keept thinking that if the friction is zero (of course not attainable) then the bow has to come to rest at full draw in exactly the same position, each and every time.
As a paranthesis, if one pays attention to some of the pictures, there are two hard stops clamped on the dovetailed ways,
one for the bow mounting block (in case it has to be taken apart for transportation I can mount it right back very precisely), and one for the stop of the " X-Y adjustment box" at full draw, again very precise.

This could be an interesting point also, the release is attached by means of a spherical articulation (P/N 6154K11 - McMaster Carr), the thought was that lesser constrain is better (but again, this was a result of the initial constrains, things I had to work with).
There is a fundamental difference between the design I followed, and the Hooter Shooter as an example.

OK, this is it, lunch break's over...

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Enlighten us brother Liviu you got me on the edge of my seat waiting for you to tell the whole story. 

Going by that pattern something has to be walking around some where. I know that the machine weighs 150lbs but I read some were about how much momentum is transfered in the forward direction of the bow after the cams return to the bottom it was impressive. So with it being on concrete which it looks like steel to concrete contact it may be moving around a minute amount. Be hard to tell unless you mount a magnetic base to maybe the racks beside the machine with an dial indicator on it to see if it's sliding on you.

Machine looks great though man I just set here and keep staring at it.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> If it's the finger pressure on the release then it's time to design a remote firing system sounds like fun. lol


He he, way ahead of you buddy:wink:








The idea here is to completely protect the trigger from accidental release. Safety first... always (notice the link chain as well in a previous pic)

ManhunterUSMC, if you're passionate enough, metal fabrication could be art, especially when there is access to specialized equipment (laser cutting, waterjet, CNC machining & press braking, computer modelling, etc...).
There is an old Chinese curse/proverb: "May you live in interesting times", when it comes to technology I sometimes think that we are very "cursed" but in a good way, I wish you good luck as well.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Looks great my friend. I have a question how thick of material is the frame work made out of on you multi stage axis?


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Enlighten us brother Liviu


Just had an enlightening moment myself.

Kept thinking about the "/" pattern and couldn't quite grasp it.
If the machine moves the pattern would be more like so"-", maybe there is a combination of factors, but then again that darn line, what is happening?

What if there are some other external factors, so I walked out in the warehouse looked around, and there is a ceiling heater above and to the left of the shooting line... could this influence that much the results if it's running while shooting?

Here is a pic of the set-up from the arrow's perspective. See the white box hanging from the ceiling, and the target at the far wall.









I have to leave now, no time for testing today, will try tomorrow evening (maybe bring some candles too, and place them along the way)
I'll do some more ramblings tonight from my home computer.

Liviu


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Looks great my friend. I have a question how thick of material is the frame work made out of on you multi stage axis?


PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the whole model tomorrow (everything it's going to be probably around 5MB). Have fun with it.

Gone baby gone,
Liviu


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

f4irocket said:


> ....it may be moving around a minute amount....


second with that. Im shooting rings and long distances. Just a little scope offset in the peep, almoast not noticable and my score is down, even worst if the scope moving arround 
put a dial indicator to a font leg or corner, or try the lazer pointer.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

f4irocket said:


> Hey Purka On my drawings there is a knob on the end of the the attachment near the hand wheel side of the press that if you turn it will move the attachment in and out basically your windage on the bow. If this is confusing I can post some pics just let me know.
> Thanks


Sorry f4irocket, I'm not very good at explaining myself. The adjustment I was referring to is the cant of the bow ( sight bubble).


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

That is what we have been discussing between BigHun, Liviu, and I. Were looking at different ways to obtain this.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

OK, next possible steps:

I will manufacture a couple of braces and bolt them in a triangle configuration, between two of the orange rack uprights
and the "S" shaped main channel on the machine (it's designed with holes just about everywhere, for cases like this).

The laser idea later, I have to do more homework about laser pointers before buying one. There is a wide range to choose from and I want one that keeps a tight spot at great distance; also read somwhere that animals do not see a certain laser color, don't remember if Red or Green.

What I can do meanwhile, is making a little tripod/stand (could be wooden) and have a piece of wire sharpened at one end (or a nail for that matter) mounted on top of it pointing horizontally, then attach another piece of wire/nail to the front of the machine pointing horizontally forward,
lastly bring the tripod very close so the two aligned nails point perfectly at each other, but there is no contact between them.
Any movement should be easily observable then.

On a somewhat related note, when I was "cranking-up" the machine I could see the tip of the arrow vibrating a little, so then I would try and crank the release box as smooth as possible with both hands, trying to apply pure torque but no bending moment
(the crank handle is pretty much the same as a bench vise's one, see previous pics).

What else?... the main channel feels really sturdy at the back of the machine, but vibrates at the front if hit sideways (but it stays solid if not hit). I made some changes, like the flared part at the bottom of the fron foot, for better stability.
I also made a computer model variation with two feet at front, but don't want to give up on this design yet. The front foot is telescopic and adjustable from the top (see shiny T handle in pics). Two bolts on each side and T-Nuts guided by slots cut in the "inside" portion of the leg (bottom part) hold everything together as one piece.
I can vertically adjust the inclination to shoot from greater distances ( right now is close to the bottom and it can raise more than 6").

The Hooter Shooter (and some other designs here) keep the bow and the release moving together when adjusting the X-Y axes.
Much like an archer moving everything together with his/her upper body (knuckles locked behind the jaw, etc...).
My approach, given the aformentioned constrains, was to design the connection between the bow holder and the riser as a spherical joint
, and just the same, a spherical joint between the release and the X/Y positioning stage.
This way, at least in theory, after moving/adjusting the release in either direction, the bow-string-release as a system, should move slightly at full draw, following the imaginary line between the two spherical joints.

On a lighter note, in my wildest dreams (no... not that kind) I was thinking of tunning a bunch of arrows to shoot the same,
and then spelling my name by shooting them at the target with the required adjustments in between each shot. Maybe make a little film and YouTube it. I was thinking that "L" and "I" woud be a breeze, but I would have a more difficult time with the letter "V".
Now given the "/" pattern, it seems that I got the "V" covered, or at least half of it... he...he


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Great explanation Liviu. As solid as this machine looks and with all the attention to detail I still think there is some sort of small movement once the cams reach bottom but with the nail Idea you should be able to see some movement if there is. I would still like to use an dial indicator mounted to the rack some how to see if it is jumping or something. It could be bouncing once release and then settling back into position after everything is done with. 

Oh love to see that video!!!!!!!!!:high5:


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*the machine*

Liviu 

very interesting , out of spare ~ parts , youve done very well 

on your arrows i would number them and shot a few for a pattern with several arrows 
i would also shoot a arrow through paper at 10 to 15 ft to see how the arrow is leaving the bow while it being fired in the machine , i havent forgot you guys my creation is in the works and it will be very worthy of your DIY forum here , i think i'm going to give you guys a *** moment when i post some pics of the finished POS :wink:

TS2


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Liviu
at the time when I built my draw board, noticed that some bows don't have a simetrical distance-offset on upper and lover limb related to center-shot.
What I would do, take one 2x4, place it from right (from the riser) clamp it to that upper "bridge" and lover casting maintaining a most poerfect vertical wal in plane of your shooting direction (this way you create a solid wall).. 
On 2 different hights, one on lover limb and one on the upper limb somewhere stick (3M doublesided tape) some 2 identical thickness soft rubber pads in between the riser and the wood, right beside drill 2 holes through the 2x4 and take a fishing line hook it around a riser, through the wood to the back side and hook up some not soo heavy weights maybe 200 gram or something like that (this way one will pull constant the lover portion and one the upper portion of the riser agains the rubber pads). Don't use the wireform maybe it was moving (or vibrating) at the moment of the shock?
This way you clamped the riser to something solid but still its free (sortof) because you can handpull the fishing line .
If you have a dial indicator on magnetic base, place it from the side, zero it on riser and this way you can see it moves sidaway and how much was that (this for the case if the 2x4 still moves)?
also, just for reference, make a D-loop a bit longer so the release won't torque it ?!!?
Lets try couple more shots. My best guess that the bow moved on you somehow, the bow only or the whole thing.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

OK, Just a quick update:

f4irocket and bigHUN, you were right about the machine moving around _a minute amount_.
What I did last night, is bolting it to the rack nearby and it shot in a "I" pattern but much tighter.

bigHUN, the fishing line is a good idea, and related to that I also have a mirror "lower bridge" made that would come across the riser at the lower limb connection, I just didn't installed it.
I'll post some pictures soon.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

First a few pics of the new set-up, I'll post the target results and some thoughts later:

Here is the way I braced it to the rack









In this picture you can see the wire guide is changed.
It's longer on the outside (that's where the bow tends to tilt when everything is relaxed).
At full draw the riser just about pushes against it. I can disengage it just by touching the riser sideways.
It seems to be working well, not perfect but still...









A detail of the X-Y stage box from the top.
You can see the safety ratchet built just in case the hands slip off the handle during the cranking of the device










And lastly another perspective view with the target in the background, a little over 80 feet away from the camera.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I definitely wouldn't use that type of release head. I'd use a high end free swinging open hook type release. I use a Carter Ember but Carter makes many open hook releases now. The best Carters should give you a much cleaner and consistent release of the d-loop than what you are currently using. I wouldn't be surprised if the group pattern you were getting is from the d-loop/release.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

yes, this release will torque. you could take out a screw and replace it with a double 1/8 rope (parashooting cable or similar soft bending rope) about the same length


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

the fishing line came to my mind, to have the riser clamped, but soft clamped somehow to some solid wall, with constant but not overkill strong pull. So that shall give you consistent repeatability. After a shot the bow riser shall get back to the touch to a solid wall, again and again. 
regarding this, I was allways wondering how much the riser warps in the full draw? Once, months back I was thinking to rent a 3D handheld scanner, to scan the bow in my draw board in both positions, free standing and full draw. Whenn I got a quoted $$$ for renting equipment, I gave up quickly. My best guess that the riser two ends could offset up to 0.150" and maybe even more if it has a cable guard. So from this stand point whenn you do a stress analysis need to apply a bit more soffisticated math.
For this reason some of the manufacturers on some of the models doing different amount offsets on lover or upper portion of the riser related to a centershot (handle center, or plane between cam groves). sorry, I might got off topic...


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> The best Carters should give you a much cleaner and consistent release of the d-loop than what you are currently using. I wouldn't be surprised if the group pattern you were getting is from the d-loop/release.


You're probably right about this.
Makes me chuckle, I bought the cheapest one I could find thinking that I would make it work. Plus I liked the way it was attached to the wrist strap, cheap again, but easy to interface it with my machine.



bigHUN said:


> you could take out a screw and replace it with a double 1/8 rope (parashooting cable or similar soft bending rope) about the same length


Maybe I should do some explanation first: I'm not an experienced archer or hunter, heck I bought this bow, because a friend at work wanted a shooting buddy at the archery lanes.
He move back in Houston, last December after a 6 years stint in Edmonton. So please explain in more detail what do you mean.

Here are the results with the machine braced:
Shot #1









Shot #2









Shot #3









Shot #4









Shot #5









Shot #6









After the first shot everything settled and the rest were pretty consistent in a vertical plane.
Now I think, it's more about friction between handle and bow holder.
Next step is painting the holder with Krylon Fusion for plastic first and then some Krylon Epoxy Enamel for a smooth and hard finish.
Will see over the weekend if it gets any better.

Cheers,
Liviu
P.S. After I've done the shots above I played some more, and then dialed the X-Y stage after each shot to get a bullseye.
Didn't quite get it, but close; here are the last couple:


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu is killing me getting to shoot all these arrows. I got to get mine done. Here is were I'm at right now. Pay no attention to the hand wheel it's something I laser cut just to try my real one hasn't come in yet. I'm hoping to be done by this weekend.









It looks like your almost there Liviu great to see the group getting a vertical line. I'm not 100% positive but with vertical discrepancies in the arrows like that could be caused by other things like knock point to high or low causing the arrow to porpoising another thing could be arrow spine stiffness. Like I said I'm no pro at this that's why I'm building one so I can do my own test and learn. So good luck my friend keep us informed on what you learn and I will hopefully as soon as I get mine finished. LOL:wink:


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks Buddy,
I see your machine is coming along nice. One thing though, looking at the 3D model, just noticed that the bottom bolting plates
are welded in the wrong direction; nothing that a chop saw can't fix :wink:



f4irocket said:


> I'm not 100% positive but with vertical discrepancies in the arrows like that could be caused by other things like knock point to high or low causing the arrow to porpoising another thing could be arrow spine stiffness. Like I said I'm no pro at this that's why I'm building one so I can do my own test and learn. So good luck my friend keep us informed on what you learn and I will hopefully as soon as I get mine finished. LOL:wink:


I thought of the spine stiffness as a potential problem too. Even wanted to mention it in the previous post. That's because, just like the release I use on the machine, these arrows really cost about a dime a dozen.
That's why, so far, I'm really satisfied considering the above.
In other words, if the machine shoots almost vertical now, I imagine with a stiffer arrow and a better release it'll be even better.

t:Some other thoughts:
When dialing it in for a bullseye shot, got really taken aback by how a little turn of the dials made such a difference on the target.
The H-V screws are UNF 1/2"-20 (0.050"/turn), and for 1/3 of a turn (0.016" movement of the release block),
the arrow would hit about 1/2" away on the target. I mean, 0.016" it's nothing right?... 
It took about 5 shots to dial it in the inner circle (see pic in previous post) and only because of "heavy handed" adjustments,
until I got a feeling for it.

It really made me respect a lot more the target shooters :focus:


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## ManHunterUSMC (Sep 13, 2010)

I'm Glad bracing the machine worked so great for you!! Looks amazing!! 
Here are the results with the machine braced:
Shot #1









Shot #2









Shot #3









Shot #4









Shot #5









Shot #6









After the first shot everything settled and the rest were pretty consistent in a vertical plane.
Now I think, it's more about friction between handle and bow holder.
Next step is painting the holder with Krylon Fusion for plastic first and then some Krylon Epoxy Enamel for a smooth and hard finish.
Will see over the weekend if it gets any better.

Cheers,
Liviu
P.S. After I've done the shots above I played some more, and then dialed the X-Y stage after each shot to get a bullseye.
Didn't quite get it, but close; here are the last couple:














[/QUOTE]


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ah you pay very close attention to detail.LOL:icon_salut: I swapped them out after noticing I can get the press to the edge of the work bench with them this way. 

Like I said I'm no pro when it comes to exactly what spine does to the arrow flight just remember reading some where that it can cause problems with arrow flight. But that's why were are building these to make everything perfect and to gain more experience. I was thinking of using a using a finer thread on my X,Y stage but if you have to do some king of coarse adjustment it would be a real headache. It's amazing how much a full turn of 0.016 moves at 30 yards is after when you trig that out. Be real easy to crank it over to much and stick one in the buildings wall. lol


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Liviu said:


> You're probably right about this.
> Makes me chuckle, I bought the cheapest one I could find thinking that I would make it work. Plus I liked the way it was attached to the wrist strap, cheap again, but easy to interface it with my machine.
> 
> 
> ...


LOL I figured as much. 
You won't see the "super" target shooters using the release you have on your machine. The releases I use have cleaner, smoother triggers than the triggers on most higher end rifles and I'm not a "super" target shooter. Your machine looks like a precision built piece of gear but your release mechanism isn't even second rate when it comes to giving a clean release every time. That release is hard on the d-loop material and the d-loop is going to inevitably change shape through wear.

Check out the slow motion video in the following thread and you can see how the string wobbles coming out of the type release you are using. When I saw the groups I recognized the pattern that a good but not quite there archer might shoot. First off I would tell the "archer" to upgrade his release then continuing work on getting a consistent grip, consistent anchor point and operating his release consistently. Of course one must have a consistent sight picture. 

It appears that your shooting machine is so well made that until you upgrade your release mechanism I think you are spinning your wheels trying to improve the other pieces of a "shot".

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1371852&p=1059496942#post1059496942

There are other videos earlier in the thread.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Kstigall,
Your comments and advice are most welcomed. For guys like f4irocket and especially me as a noob, this is pure gold. Thank you.
Last night I went to bed thinking about the open hook release, and how am I going to connect it to the machine in an _"it belongs there"_ kind of way.
I often do this, as sometimes I wake up in the morning with the answer.
In this particular case, I think that I'll buy one, take it apart, keep the mechanism inside, and build an enclosue around it to interface nicely with the machine.

Thanks again,
Liviu
P.S. Most of the videos I cannot see on the computer at work, so I'll have a look at those tonight. Can barely wait.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

There are many releases built somewhat like the one you are using that will work well.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Ah you pay very close attention to detail.LOL:icon_salut: I swapped them out after noticing I can get the press to the edge of the work bench with them this way...


He... he, kinda' knew exactly how your thoughts evolved, as I would've probably done the same.
First, when designing, put them "across" to give a better stability in that direction, since along the axis it already is inherenlty stable given the length.
Then when building it... wait a minute... I think I want as much clearance between the bow (+ accessories) and the bench top as I can get, better turn these around. :wink:



f4irocket said:


> ...Be real easy to crank it over to much and stick one in the buildings wall. lol


Already got two of them stuck in the plywood board behind the target. Nothing that a hacksaw can't fix :wink:


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

getting back to that "I" shaped impact, lets see the answers to my questions:
- do you have a consistent DL allways maxed to the same distance? or could happen that you over-drawing or under drawing? that gives you different force, right, so the arrows will impact lover or higher and left and right depend of the spine ... as you sad once that these arrows are realy just for scraping them with testing, we can assume that their spine is all over the place ????
- do you have a hard stop on the cams, what means a stop like a srew or any boss to touch the riser and stop? if yes, you have that stop (common for bowtech placed to the upper cam only) and over-drawing that means you are benting the upper limb more than the lover limb what could give you again a timing issue ?
- so, if you have the hard cam stop, even the timing is (or could be) correct, but still able to alter the tiler ?! yes
now, lets stop and no more questions untill we see this.
you are holding the bow (trying to duplicate the body position) on 2 spots on the grip handle, one is inside the valey and the second is pushing very hard at the bottom (but the bow could still tilt out of vertical L or R), pulling the string back with the release (what could torque), at the moment we execute the shock to bow will immediately tend to fall - or - jump forward and upward (remember, we are pushing the handle lover portion)....the arrow tail might still be kissing through the rest (I missed the rest, don't remember seeing it which one is ) so the arrow will live the bow eraticaly, only the fletching what can fix up to a certain degree before hits the target.
- or the bow would want to jump forward or downward ?? since we have offsets, right? the grip valley is offset, the nock point is offset also, its not the mathematical center neither the string neither the distance between axis?
Whenn I place my bow to my drawboard (not at home right now to post some pics), the bow sits on 2 rubber spacers glued to a 2x4 (a solid wall what Im allways refering to), and during the draw all together freely swivels arround the axis of the 1/2" screw what is holding the bow grip valley, the D-loop have a large radius path (some might called that "almost a straight line") untill riches the final point at the full draw. The point is, the riser tends to swivel around the grip valley during a draw. Now from this point we execute the shot, the motion coming from 2 different forces might be collective confusing....


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm very interested in seeing your draw board BigHun. Is there anyway you could post some pics of it with your bow in it for us? I think I have an idea of a wall for my bow press like your talking about but I would like to see exactly what your talking about first. Let me ask you another question ok lets say instead of the bow floating on the bow holder what if we design a bow holder that physically locks the bow into the perfect position at draw now what are your thoughts on this. I know this is not the normal situation for what every one else does. But hows will this affect what we are trying to accomplish?


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## sues (Apr 25, 2007)

Looking go there f4irocket hope to see the finished product


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

I don't think you should get hung up on making the bow immobile in a holder. On another thread I have posted what my shooter uses. When my machine has the bow at full draw I have the ability to center the bubble and make other fine adjustments. When I trigger the release I feel I am going to get the arrow in the same hole as long as the machine is not moving on the shot. Not saying you shouldn't try it, just don't think it is necessary.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

peregrine82 said:


> I don't think you should get hung up on making the bow immobile in a holder. On another thread I have posted what my shooter uses. When my machine has the bow at full draw I have the ability to center the bubble and make other fine adjustments. When I trigger the release I feel I am going to get the arrow in the same hole as long as the machine is not moving on the shot. Not saying you shouldn't try it, just don't think it is necessary.


So what is the distances your shooting at hole for hole? Also how do you repeat the point of full draw?

Thanks sues hope to finish it soon myself.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

*my draw board*

got this server rack from wrecklers years ago (planned to do a "boxless" computer system in my house, never finished as we can see), 5mm wallthickness, I sad this shall work for my draw board. 
Drilled clearance hole for 1/2" screw through steel and 2x4. 









tighten a nut from the back









the 2 black rubber spacers (rubber tapp holder) could stick anywhere with 3M doublesided tape, just to hold any bow parallel with the draw, 









start drawing the bow, take a look how the 2x4 is positioned in relation to the steel bar:









the complete thing freele swivels-turnes around the axis (1/2") bolt:









to have a better understanding about the degree of turns I placed "an object
" paralleled to the 2x4









here it comes, I don't even want to measure it. This is a BT Constitution with binary cams !!! what has zero nock travel:









On all my bows my fine tuning starts from the bow vise, string vertical from both sides-dirrection, nock hight ZERO (not 1/8" and things like that) perpendicular to the string. The arrows kissing the springsteel launcher through the whole length...
Just want to say, all bows work like this on the pictures, no bow on the market what will not rotate...


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

So in one of our shooting machines are you saying we should use something similar to your 2x4 to maintain the bow is plumb its in the full drawn position? Another question what if the bow is at full draw and I have a plumb bob hanging from a bar above the bow and that can be swiveled around to see to touch the string and then be swiveled up to touch the riser to see if both are plumb? If this is hard to understand let me know and I can sketch something up real fast.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

f4irocket said:


> So what is the distances your shooting at hole for hole? Also how do you repeat the point of full draw?
> 
> Thanks sues hope to finish it soon myself.


For now I am shooting at 8 yds. but it is to the same hole consistently (With the same arrow). I am quite sure at longer distances it will be very close discounting wind and other external variables. I tune to the same point of release with a turnbuckle. My friend made the turn buckle and my release threads in to it. I have a ratchet winch with a strap and when I am close to the draw stops I fine it in with the turn buckle. I am using a Cobra double caliper and it works just fine.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thats great can't wait to see how well it does at longer yardage. The only thing that I'm thinking though is lets say at 8 yards if the center of your arrows shot at this distance is off by let's say 0.025 then at 30 yards if you trig that out that compounds up to over an 0.125 the angle comes out to 20 seconds of one degree. That pretty impressive to be able to maintain that type of repeatability. I guess what I'm trying to say is once you get out to longer distances one small variable can make a huge difference.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

this is just my quick draw board what works fine for timing adjustments since in horizontal plane.
this my concept, of course million ways to do it, Im inwiting both of you lets go pm to email with this. 
Liviu is getting to final testings. 
We have to agree he progressed the most from all of us, great amount of effort and definitely *one of the best work I have seen in DIY*.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

bigHUN said:


> getting back to that "I" shaped impact, lets see the answers to my questions:
> - do you have a consistent DL allways maxed to the same distance? or could happen that you over-drawing or under drawing? that gives you different force, right, so the arrows will impact lover or higher and left and right depend of the spine ... as you sad once that these arrows are realy just for scraping them with testing, we can assume that their spine is all over the place ????


Yes, as I stated previously, the whole block that pulls the release comes to a hard stop at full draw, always in the same spot.
The following picture shows that stop, under the orange ratchet trigger:











bigHUN said:


> - do you have a hard stop on the cams, what means a stop like a srew or any boss to touch the riser and stop? if yes, you have that stop (common for bowtech placed to the upper cam only) and over-drawing that means you are benting the upper limb more than the lover limb what could give you again a timing issue ?
> - so, if you have the hard cam stop, even the timing is (or could be) correct, but still able to alter the tiler ?! yes


No, don't have hard stops on the cams. In fact it's only one cam, couldn't afford two,
so I bought a cheap original Switchback (Solocam) :wink:



bigHUN said:


> you are holding the bow (trying to duplicate the body position) on 2 spots on the grip handle, one is inside the valey and the second is pushing very hard at the bottom (but the bow could still tilt out of vertical L or R), pulling the string back with the release (what could torque), at the moment we execute the shock to bow will immediately tend to fall - or - jump forward and upward (remember, we are pushing the handle lover portion)


No I thought of trying first with just one point of contact between the bow and the holder. There is however another piece which I call the heel, that is supposed to be adjusted so it barely touches the handle at full draw (haven't installed it though). Here is a picture of the model:








Of course, the very next thing I have to do is install it and see if the vertical "spread" is getting better.



bigHUN said:


> the D-loop have a large radius path (some might called that "almost a straight line") untill riches the final point at the full draw. The point is, the riser tends to swivel around the grip valley during a draw. Now from this point we execute the shot, the motion coming from 2 different forces might be collective confusing....


 Yes I can see the riser swiveling while drawing but having only one contact point (as mentioned above) I'm not too worried. It should come to rest in the same position. Also, I haven't had the bow tested on a draw board (nock path, etc..), but now that I've seen yours I have to build one yet and try it. 
Mind you, right now I feel that the biggest variables are the arrow spine, and nock travel. Probably the release too, but to a lesser extent.

One quick fact that I just remembered, I didn't have anybody with me to mark the arrow at full draw, so I had to set the machine empirically by bringing the release in the appropiate position at rest and gripping the D-loop, then setting the hard stop 22" from the sliding block (29" DL; 7" BH). I do have the feeling that it's not pulling the bow back into the wall though. It's still kind of easy to crank when it reaches the hard stop.


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

Liviu,
Have you considered adding a turnbuckle between your release and the pulling block similar to the ones peregrine82 and I have on our "Uber Shooters". This way you can come to your dead stop on your pulling block and still have an additional easy method of fine adjusting the drawlength to ensure you are comming to full draw each time. Once you have set it for the particular bow you are testing you should not have to adjust it aslong as your testing the same bow. 
As to the caliper style release, I am using a TruBall caliper similar to Peregrine82 and haven't encountered any issues with that style of release. I can shoot the same arrow (Gold Tip or Victory HV 22's) from mine and hit the same spot each time. The shots have been short distance (10'-15') as the weather hasn't permitted taking it out side to the range but the arrows are hitting the same hole each time. I've set 4 seperate locations on my butt bag and make the height or left/right adjustment via the bow holder arm and each arrow fired at the target location seems to repeat. I've also marked the floor around where the 4 legs of the shooters make contact and haven't had any issue with the stand moving either. The weight with my bow press mounted to the stand seems enough to prevent any movement.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

DssBB said:


> Liviu,
> Have you considered adding a turnbuckle between your release and the pulling block


No I haven't, but now that you mentioned... it sound like a good idea. I'll toy with it. Thanks.


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

One thing you may also want to look is the actual bow holder you are using. The design is fantasic however, is it possible because of the various componants used in the assembly you are having some minor torgueing or flexing issues each time you draw back and fire the bow. Even minute amount of flexing at the yardage you are shooting could be somewhat responsible for the pattern you are getting.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Well there is ways to check for flexing with indicators. I think when it's all set up a person needs to take some very accurate measurements to see what everything is doing that actually touches the bow. So DssBB you have had no problems with the caliper type release? I have seen them used on the Hooter Shooter with no problems. Man this is getting so technical and interesting I can't get my mind off of it love stuff like this.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Liviu, as you can see the last 2 pics showing how much the bow swivels around the centerline (1/2" screw, in your case the upper contact point). If you install the lover contact point we shall expect a large amount of pressure on it...just my guess


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,
The caliper type (Tru Ball Cyclone) release I'm using is working fine as is the Cobra caliper which peregrine82 is also using. As mentioned earlier in this thread or the other thread (both should be combined) we have only been shooting ours at close range for now but both of us have been able to shoot consistent hole locations. Once we are able to take them to the outdoor range for some longer yardage shooting, we may uncover some issues we are not seeing at this point in time. Hopefully, by us keeping the design simple (KISS method) and the manufactured parts solid, we have been able to take alot of variables such as flexing or torquing issues out of the equation but time will tell. Either way this a fantastic project and all thanks goes to Beastmaster for initiating it. In all honesty, Ryobi so be giving him a royalty cheque for there sudden increase in stand sales.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

Liviu, you are using a single cam bow in your machine, it has what could be described as a spongy wall, you can actually pull past the stop substantially. My bows all are 2 cam and have double draw stops hitting on the limbs. This is a very positive hard wall and one I favour. I just don't like the sponginess of cable stops on the cams especially only one as in single cam bows. This variable could be causing you some issues as well. You seem to have addressed it well though, just throwing this out to you. I really like your revised bow holder, replicates the bow hand very well.


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

As far as drawing the bow to the back wall goes: It would be best for the bow's owner to take an arrow sprayed with foot powder, drawing it back to exactly where his anchor is on the back wall, then let down and mark the arrow with pen where it last contacted the arrow rest. Once you have the arrow marked the bow can be drawn on the machine to this exact point on the rest, and then the machine can be marked at this spot so the draw length can be repeated every time with whatever arrow that you want to shoot with that bow. I was surprised that my back wall is over an inch of additional draw past the point where the string was hitting the stops.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Stab 'em said:


> ...my back wall is over an inch of additional draw past the point where the string was hitting the stops...


how did you got this one?? this is NFG, I mean nothing will happen to the limbs but the cams might over rotate !!!! and that will cause a real nightmare...you won't be able to let down the bow, and definitely not safely...:awkward:


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

bigHUN said:


> how did you got this one?? this is NFG, I mean nothing will happen to the limbs but the cams might over rotate !!!! and that will cause a real nightmare...you won't be able to let down the bow, and definitely not safely...:awkward:


The way my Limbsaver bows were designed, unless a draw stop pin has fallen off the cam there is no way of over-rotation. They are tough bows in all regards. 

As for the additional draw length goes, I discovered that when I first built my machine. I was only drawing them on the machine until the string settled into the stops and this was not as much force as I put on the bow when I draw it back to achor. The additional three to five pounds everyone puts on the back wall makes an additional inch or so of draw length on the shaft. This matters when shooting/tuning the bow on the machine, as we try to mimic a real drawn bow with the machine.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thats interesting so are you saying your stretching the string or flexing the riser to gain that extra inch?


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

peregrine82 said:


> Liviu, you are using a single cam bow in your machine, it has what could be described as a spongy wall.... I really like your revised bow holder, replicates the bow hand very well.


That's why I bought this one. I wanted the smoothest bow, so I did a search here on AT and the most opinions favored the Switchback (or the XT) so I got one. I've tried the Hoyt Katera (my colleague's bow) and the Alphamax and found them a little too "harsh".
Also, it seems that a lot of people are sorry for selling/giving their Switchbacks...probably would like to switch back if possible...

...it looks like the bow holder should be revised again to accomodate the Hoyt risers.
Probably somebody will find a better solution. I like yours from the "$160 Mechanical Shooter" thread, very nice and clean.



Stab 'em said:


> The additional three to five pounds everyone puts on the back wall makes an additional inch or so of draw length on the shaft. This matters when shooting/tuning the bow on the machine, as we try to mimic a real drawn bow with the machine.


This is an interesting point that I kept thinking about; was afraid of cranking the machine too much without feeling it (given the mechanical advantage of rack & pinion set-up), so I set the stop somewhere in the valley, where it is a little "sloppy".
Now, thanks to your suggestion :yo:, I can mark the arrow (hope flour will work just fine) pulling into the wall and then adjust the machine appropriately.
This way, at full draw there will be more tension in the riser, and hopefully the bow will settle more consistently in the same spot (at least in theory).


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Spot-Hogg say to use a pencil to mark the spot at full on the Hooter Shooter...How about a sliding clamp or machine stop ?


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

f4irocket said:


> Thats interesting so are you saying your stretching the string or flexing the riser to gain that extra inch?


This doesn't stretch strings or flex the riser really. What it does is rotates the cams and bends the strings over the draw stops a few degrees. The limbs will flex a little more too. Check out the stops as your drawing the machine back and you'll see the string hit the stops where you were first drawing it to, then keep going to the marked anchor point and you'll see that the string bends around the stop slightly. There is nothing to worry about with over-flexing, as this is how it is shot by you every day. I mark my arrows to the proper draw length instead of my machine, that way there is no discrepancies in draw. However, a solidly placed machine stop or the like would work great for repeatability with these two machine designs.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*pos*

f4irocket 

i'm on the last leg of my journey here , it's been a very interesting project indeed .
what started out of raw steel has took on the character of a mean looking machine .
the machine can shoot the flame out of a candle :jksign:not!!
after the final leg is complete and i'm satisfied that it delivers i will show and tell then .

TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Can't wait t see your pics of it.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I seriously doubt arrow spine is an issue. Arrow quality could be, such as a nock that is not square to shaft. 
I made some assumptions so I'll give you a few things that target archers are aware of when setting up their gear:
- Try a few different arrows to see if one shoots tighter groups than another.
- Fletch contact with the rest. This may or may not be a problem. If it is contacting the same way every time then there isn't problem. But no contact is the most consistent.
- Doesn't matter if the bow is plumb. But it must be in the same spot every time. Many of the very best archers don't shoot with their bows perfectly plumb. 
- Anchor must be in precisely the same spot or location.
- Nock fit to string. Make sure the nock on the arrow fits the string properly. You do not want your nock to snap real tight onto the string. The tighter the fit to the string the more variable the release from the string can be. You won't spot shooters really snapping their arrows to the string.
- The rest. A simple spring steel rest is about as reliable as they come.

Something to think about:
The very good spot shooters shoot average about 1" groups (maybe a shave less) at 20 yards, 60 shots. Heck, at one time I was even doing it. The very best spot shooters have been on rolls where they shot well under 1" groups for 60 arrows. I would expect your machine soon to be doing under .5" groups at 25 yards.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu how ya doing thought I would post up pics of the staging axis I used from your design changed a few things. I had some heavy linear ball slides laying around so I used those plus I added linear scales in both axis should have those soon. I also made all the frame out of 5 gauge steel just beef it up some and the slides shafts are 5/8 diameter. Maybe overkill but I don't want any flexing. Be glad when I get this done. So ready to shoot it. Thanks for the help Liviu. 
Mike


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey Mike you've been busy,

Lookin good, very good. The heavier gauge is a good idea. My box flexes ever so slightly when I push downward hard by hand. Might change it to 1/4" myself.
Are those bearing blocks the "twin type", longer than the regular ones? Should be really sturdy (and prohibitive for me :wink

Noticed you put two shafts on the X axis as well. that's how I had it desinged originally, but then changed to one.
Linear scales (digital readout, if I understood correctly) are a nice touch as well.
Now I'm anxious for you to shoot it.

Now... on a totally unrelated subject, Santa dropped by later this year, in fact he came visit just today... look what he got me:









There is another thing I'm working on right now. Sorta realized that my bow is probably not quite up to specs. so I decided to learn a little about bow tuning and cam timing, etc...
And for that I need a draw board, so here is a "snap shot" of the preliminary design:









Wasn't quite happy with the ratchet design because of the incremental movement. I want "fluid" pull and be able to stop in any position throughout the range, for checking nock travel an whatnot.
Also not that excited about the worm gear because it takes forever to crank (but I like the stopping and self locking features), so I "slept on it" and came up with a different approach with pulleys and a drive screw (also "fluid" pull and self locking, but faster than worm). It's based on the KICC principle (keep it complex an complicated), hope it will work.

Cheers buddy...


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> ...- Fletch contact with the rest. This may or may not be a problem. If it is contacting the same way every time then there isn't problem. But no contact is the most consistent.
> ...- Nock fit to string. Make sure the nock on the arrow fits the string properly. You do not want your nock to snap real tight onto the string. The tighter the fit to the string the more variable the release from the string can be. You won't spot shooters really snapping their arrows to the string.
> - The rest. A simple spring steel rest is about as reliable as they come.


Thanks Kstigall,
All of the above are applicable in my case.

While shooting, I was checking the fletching to see if there is contact with the rest (an old Trap Door brand drop away type) and I've seen some markings.
What I think happens, the bow is so stable in the machine, that sometimes it gets beyond the threshold of the rest capability to detect arrow release (not enough shock).

I don't really know what's the proper nock fit to string, but from your explanation I bet it's too tight. I have to snap the nock on the string (and it's almost a double snap that I'm feeling).
I tried to quantify the value of the "grip" by pulling at the arrow (don't have a digital scale) and it takes about 2 pounds force to release from the string. Is that too much?

Would the spring steel rest be a better alternative then WB?

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Draw machine looks great my friend. Like the pulley idea. The powder coat looks awesome to. Lucky dude!!!!!!!!!!!:set1_applaud:

I Have a limb driver rest on my bow never had any issues with it causing any interference issues. I use to use one of the rest like you are talking about and if it's not setup perfectly it will give you serious headaches.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

Hopefully K will respond to this as well but I will offer my opinion as well. Your nock fit does not sound too tight if the release weight is approx. 2 lbs. Some nocks do incorporate a double lock system and this may be what you are feeling. 

Although the WB is a good hunting rest it does throw variables in to the equation as the arrow going through is subjected to forces throughout the travel. This may change shot to shot. I like lizard tongues because they are simple and offer repeatability shot to shot. 8 thou for arrows up to 325 gns. 10 thou for arrows up to approx. 375 and 12 thou for over that. Some lizard tongues offer flex in the rest adjustment itself (Spot Hogg, Nap 3000). Don't overlook the high quality limb driven drop aways as they work exceptionally well and are very easy to tune. 

Your shooter looks fantastic and I am really looking forward to seeing it fully assembled. Love the draw board design, DssBB and I have been using the KISS principle but perhaps need to rethink that as KCC seems to be producing some very innovative ideas.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Oh ya Liviu those bearings are the double type and I went with double shafts on the x axis just because when I ran it through simulation that was the weak point during stress analysis.

peregrine82 what are your thoughts as for accuracy on the Limb drivers rest they seem to be tight with very little flex. I guess I will see the repeatability when I finish my machine maybe swapping over to the lizard tongue. Sounds like something else to design!:thumbs_up


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,

The comment about something else to design just peaked my interest. I know where we can get some real trick lizard tongues which may be quite useful in the future.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Cool we could collaborate on a fully adjustable rest with precision fit dovetails and micrometer adjustments on it. Sounds interesting to me DssBB.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

peregrine82 said:


> Hopefully K will respond to this as well but I will offer my opinion as well. Your nock fit does not sound too tight if the release weight is approx. 2 lbs. Some nocks do incorporate a double lock system and this may be what you are feeling.
> 
> I like lizard tongues because they are simple and offer repeatability shot to shot....
> 
> ...


I wonder if I can file down the two prongs of rest I have (it's lizzard tongue shaped) to the point where it'll not interfere with fletching if it doesn't drop at release.
Nah... probably will give different results, depending if it's in contact with the arrow all the way along the shaft (no drop) or only partial contact (with drop).

Cannot take too much credit. The board overall concept is inspired from other fellow AT-ers designs (e.g., the sliding riser rests in Horizontal set-up, inspired by a _72Beetle_ wooden design, or the use of pulleys inspired by _special_ with his use of a boat roller).

Cheers,
Liviu
P.S. Somebody with quick access to a "whinched" draw board, plese have a look and let me know how much the cable travels for one complete rotation of the handle.
Also how long the lever is and how easy/hard is to crank a bow (let me know if you would prefer an easier cranking, or if you would prefer a faster cranking).
I need this as part of the design input. Thank you.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu do you bend your own sheet metal and how do you cut it out are you using waterjet or laser or cnc punch press? Just wondering.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

We have a TrumaBend C110 CNC press brake that I can use. Was sent a few years back for training at Trumpf HQ in Farmington, CT. Got a decent understanding of the process.
This way, when designing sheetmetal parts, I know what it's possible and what's not, and then plan accordingly (some learned the hard way... as in _damn, I should've done this bend before that_, and so on).

We use lasers for cutting. Max. we can cut is 3/4" on a Bystronic.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Not got that fancy of a press brake but I do have a Cincinnati laser I received the damn training you referred to lol. Nice having those capabilities I guess that is what keeps us in the KICC principle were are spoiled by what we have access to.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

Liviu said:


> I wonder if I can file down the two prongs of rest I have (it's lizzard tongue shaped) to the point where it'll not interfere with fletching if it doesn't drop at release.
> Nah... probably will give different results, depending if it's in contact with the arrow all the way along the shaft (no drop) or only partial contact (with drop).
> 
> Cannot take too much credit. The board overall concept is inspired from other fellow AT-ers designs (e.g., the sliding riser rests in Horizontal set-up, inspired by a _72Beetle_ wooden design, or the use of pulleys inspired by _special_ with his use of a boat roller).
> ...


 Just measured my travel, 370 degree revolution equals 2 1/2 inches. No lever, I use a crank on a strap winch. Fine adjustments at close to full draw are made with a turnbuckle that my release is threaded in to. My bows have draw stops on the limb that makes this process easier. Customers bows with cable stops are a little trickier but I can still get to the same place every time.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

That amount of travel will change as more strap is wound up on the drum due to the diameter getting larger. If you could start out with a larger drum it wouldn't take nearly as many turns.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

peregrine,
thanks for the info. The lever I referred to is your crank (the leverage/mechanical advantage is dependant of its length, that's why I need it). So it's safe to asume around 10-11 rotations for a full draw (29"-31" DL).

Mike,
yeah I thought about that variable, but I suppose it doesn't change that much, as to have an effect on the design. Peregrine's figures give me a good starting point.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I was thinking you was trying to shorten the amount of cranks to get it to full draw.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> I was thinking you was trying to shorten the amount of cranks to get it to full draw.


Yes if it's possible. That's why I needed to know how easy/hard is to crank it, and the length of the leverage. If it's not that hard I can select the lead screw with more starts for faster travel. It all depends.
Of course another approach would be to start with how much torque/force a person is comfortably applying, and go from there.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ah I see.


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

Liviu,

If you really want to get creative and have an alternitve to the winch or rack and pinion you have currently opted for, you may want to look into retrofitting it with a linear actuator. You can buy them with 30" + travel and use still use a turnbuckle / release combo for your fine adjustment. The actuators vary in speed and have built in limit switches so there is no real fear of overdrawing your bow. Once setup, you can mark the slide rod on the actuator with a scale system to know what distance your currently drawing as the actuator is moved.
Just a thought.

PS......Peregrine82, we are upgrading the Uber Shooters....hehehe


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Linear actuator would be cool. You can get those fairly cheap. Liviu are you going to build this as a horizontal laying flat on the table type or vertical as in the bow in it's natural position?


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

DssBB said:


> If you really want to get creative and have an alternitve to the winch or rack and pinion you have currently opted for, you may want to look into retrofitting it with a linear actuator...





f4irocket said:


> Linear actuator would be cool. You can get those fairly cheap. Liviu are you going to build this as a horizontal laying flat on the table type or vertical as in the bow in it's natural position?


It is an elegant idea that was considered but... I searched past days the McMaster site for an electrical actuator, and couldn't find anything under $200 (too much for my britches). An the cheapest one had only 2" travel.
Maybe you guys can point me in the right direction (cheap actuator manufacturers)

P.S. I still like it but to be dependent on a power outlet... hmmm...I dunno


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

P.S. I still like it but to be dependent on a power outlet... hmmm...I dunno[/QUOTE said:


> How about a 12VDC actuator with a 20w solar power system......It would be clean, trick and Green Powered.
> I'm sure if you look around at ebay, kijji, used eletrical supply stores, large satelite dishes you maybe able to pick one up for around $100.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ebay has a couple of the satellite dish linear actuators for around $100. They have 36 inches of travel.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ok I done a few design changes and added some of Livius excellent ideas. Pay no attention to the bow it a mix of Mathews and Hoyt didn't have a full drawn Hoyt so I cheated and used Livius. Thanks bro:wink: Also it now has dro for draw length, and horizontal and vertical aiming adjustments. I also went with the Uber Shooter bow holder design it is a proven concept as it is similar to the Hooter Shooter. So now you guys with experience with these shooting machines give me some input on any thing you see that might need some modification before i finish this project up.


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## TozerBGood (Aug 16, 2003)

f4irocket said:


> Ebay has a couple of the satellite dish linear actuators for around $100. They have 36 inches of travel.


Why don't you get rid of the Handwheel on the press and use the motor drive off the linear actuator and rig in a foot switch? I wonder how much torque you'd need? Couldn't be much. Looks like the motors on the LCA press are a little undersized, if they say it's limited to 70Lb bow.

For that matter you could probably use an 18v drill

(Awesome thread btw)


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Also it now has dro for draw length, and horizontal and vertical aiming adjustments. I also went with the Uber Shooter bow holder design it is a proven concept as it is similar to the Hooter Shooter. So now you guys with experience with these shooting machines give me some input on any thing you see that might need some modification before i finish this project up.
> View attachment 977978


Hey buddy,
I don't know if you considered this yet, but maybe some provisions for wiring. For example miniature "energy chains" for the scales.
Or maybe flexible conduit and after deciding on the best route (probably the most hidden path), then design laser cut slots for cable tie wraps to give a nice appearance.

About the linear actuator... just checked the Firgelli Automations website suggested on page two of the thread, and found a 24" stroke tubular actuator @ 150lb force.
Very sleek, compact, and for sale at $99,99.

P.S. They have some 3D models.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm looking at a way to hide all the wires once every thing is installed haven't found a good way yet. The linear actuator I'm looking at doing that but I want to keep the hand wheel for fine adjustments. But it will have one eventually' Liviu have you started on your draw machine yet?


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,
I like the upgraded bow holder design. Did you incorporate the axial rotation (canting) and left /right adjustment of the holder similar to my Uber Shooter design? It's hard to tell from the model. 
If I may make another suggestion for your holder. Try taking the "T" bar arm which the the bow holder is attached to and rotate it so it extends out in front of the press as you are going to run into interference issues the way it is currently shown if the bows you are testing have any back stabilizers on them. You want to shoot the bows exactly as you would shoot them on a target, complete with stabilizers.


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## TozerBGood (Aug 16, 2003)

Well being an amatuer, and not a machine shop, I just used some 2x4's on my EZ press and a boat winch. Looks funky but functional. I'm the shooting machine myself, since I'm only tuning for myself.

It presses & draws my D350, PSE X_Force & Hoyt Katera XL all just fine. My pins have are slipped into a piece pf PVC, and then some water hose slipped over that. ased on which bow is being pressed, the pins are located at the points where the limbs are attached to the riser to prevent risk of actully bending the riser. Not sure how much that matters, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. 

(go ahead & laugh - I can take it)


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

DssBB said:


> f4irocket,
> I like the upgraded bow holder design. Did you incorporate the axial rotation (canting) and left /right adjustment of the holder similar to my Uber Shooter design? It's hard to tell from the model.
> If I may make another suggestion for your holder. Try taking the "T" bar arm which the the bow holder is attached to and rotate it so it extends out in front of the press as you are going to run into interference issues the way it is currently shown if the bows you are testing have any back stabilizers on them. You want to shoot the bows exactly as you would shoot them on a target, complete with stabilizers.


Yes it has the cant adjustment built in it with rotation around a boss on the bow holder and it's hard to see here but there is about 8 inches of clearance on the back side to clear stabilizers but that may not be enough I have a single rear stabilizer on mine and it will clear it for sure.


Tozer not all of us have the access to the equipment that some of the guys have been posting on this thread what you have done though is improvised with what you have and you have done a great job with what you have. My objective was to build a precision piece of equipment with the ability to be highly repeatable and I'm sure after i start shooting it something will need to be modified to obtain this.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*project*

*go ahead & laugh - I can take it*
it's ok youve done very well with what you have to work !!
besides you havent seen my creation yet so if we laugh we can 
laugh together and have a good one .. 
besides Wood is Good


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## TozerBGood (Aug 16, 2003)

WOW! That's a whole lotta love there! I bet the chics just dig it!

I like your sig BTW. Reminds me of where I work.



TargetShooter2 said:


> *go ahead & laugh - I can take it*
> it's ok youve done very well with what you have to work !!
> besides you havent seen my creation yet so if we laugh we can
> laugh together and have a good one ..
> besides Wood is Good


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

f4irocket said:


> Ok I done a few design changes and added some of Livius excellent ideas. Pay no attention to the bow it a mix of Mathews and Hoyt didn't have a full drawn Hoyt so I cheated and used Livius. Thanks bro:wink: Also it now has dro for draw length, and horizontal and vertical aiming adjustments. I also went with the Uber Shooter bow holder design it is a proven concept as it is similar to the Hooter Shooter. So now you guys with experience with these shooting machines give me some input on any thing you see that might need some modification before i finish this project up.
> View attachment 977978


The main thing that would worry me with this and Livius design. The torque or contact on the grip/riser would change with the horizontal and vertical adjustment, if used as a shooting machine. With most other shooting machines such as the Hooter Shooter, the angle from the grip to the release stays constant regardless of the impact adjustment.
This has been one of the most interesting threads on AT.:thumbs_up


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Purka said:


> The torque or contact on the grip/riser would change with the horizontal and vertical adjustment, if used as a shooting machine.


This worries me too, but I cannot stop thinking that in the end it would not matter.
Imagine if holder has a toroidal surface with no friction (geometry of a doughnut sitting horizontal, if you will) and surrounds the bow handle 360 degrees, then no matter which direction you pull the release the bow will "float" in the respective direction, following the release with no torque. This also assuming that the release stays in the same horizontal plane about 3" above the grip throat, where it should be.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Toroidal doughnut now that is layman's terms :set1_applaud: but it's also my way of thinking to we had a long conversation about all this last night in a chat room and the only way to really know for sure is to actually measure some things to see if it really is torquing the bow.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Liviu said:


> This worries me too, but I cannot stop thinking that in the end it would not matter.
> Imagine if holder has a toroidal surface with no friction (geometry of a doughnut sitting horizontal, if you will) and surrounds the bow handle 360 degrees, then no matter which direction you pull the release the bow will "float" in the respective direction, following the release with no torque. This also assuming that the release stays in the same horizontal plane about 3" above the grip throat, where it should be.


Mmm, Would this work with your low wrist grip attachment ?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ok after all the discussion last night in the chat room here is my quick fix for the problem of torquing the string during sighting. It's basically a u-joint that means two axis movement to maintain the straight back pull of the bow and keep everything in line. Now lets hear the comments?


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Toroidal doughnut now that is layman's terms :set1_applaud: but it's also my way of thinking to we had a long conversation about all this last night in a chat room and the only way to really know for sure is to actually measure some things to see if it really is torquing the bow.


After Purka's comment, that got me thinking, and the reply I sent, I went to bed mulling over the anchor point dilemma. Right now I have to finish some work, and send the drawings to laser, and after that I'll do some deductive reasoning (if that's an expression). Later


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,

I like the updated design, however in my own opinion you need to move the pivot points you've created as close to the bow grip as possible. The bow holder with it's adjustments should be a duplication of your hand and wrist except for the fact that mechanically we now can hold the bow in the exact same spot each time which helps to ensure repeatability and consistency in the shot pattern. Drawing of the bow is also done the same as you would draw a bow to shoot with the added mechanical ability to draw the bow straight back to the exact same anchor point and without exerting any side or vertical force on the D-loop which could potentially cause nock pinch and influence your shot pattern.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

DssBB said:


> f4irocket,
> 
> I like the updated design, however in my own opinion you need to move the pivot points you've created as close to the bow grip as possible. The bow holder with it's adjustments should be a duplication of your hand and wrist except for the fact that mechanically we now can hold the bow in the exact same spot each time which helps to ensure repeatability and consistency in the shot pattern. Drawing of the bow is also done the same as you would draw a bow to shoot with the added mechanical ability to draw the bow straight back to the exact same anchor point and without exerting any side or vertical force on the D-loop which could potentially cause nock pinch and influence your shot pattern.


Well i could slide it closer to the hinge points but there is only 3 inches of clearance in there right now so after mounting the urethane to hold the bow to the bow holder I'm afraid it would be a tight fit. So do you think this idea will eliminate the torquing of the d-loop like we discussed last night? With these hinge points I can move the staging axis and the release and the bow stay in line with each other through the entire movement.


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,

I would go back to your initial press design where you had the bow holder(v block) out in front of the press except adapt it to allow yourself similar adjustments as you have now (up/down, left/right and rotational about the center of the V). It was a very clean design and only needed some means of slight adjustments of the bow to ensure your level is set and your aiming is set.
As too the staging axis on the release....I would loose it altogether as ultimately, you only need to draw the bow back in a straight line to a constant anchor point without exerting any unnatural forces on the release.
I think keeping the concept clean and solid will give you the best results in the end.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I feel that from what i am seeing in the movement of the models that the bow and the release are staying in what you call a straight back constant anchor position. If after I finish everything and it doesn't work then I will move on to something else. I have beefed every thing up to maintain the integrity of the machine so there are no flexing issues. Being a Toolmaker your self you know how sometimes it looks perfect on paper but in real life it's a piece of crap. Hopefully this will actually be one of the good ones that really works.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

Liviu.

I have been trying to follow this entire thread as I have time. I must say I am jealous of the equipment some of you have available to you.

One thing that really caught my eye is what I have quoted. I might not be understanding it 100%. If your bows advertised drawlength is 29" that does NOT mean that your ACTUAL drawlength is measuring 29"s. If I understand you correctly you are drawing the bow 22"+7" Brace height for a total of 29". If that is the case you are ACTUALLY OVER DRAWING your Bow, Because DL is actually measured from the string to the deepest part of the grip PLUS 1 3/4". Which in your case would only be 27.25" from the string to the deepest part of the grip.

You need to have someone mark an arrow in the center of the berger hole at full draw, then measure from the throat of the knock to your mark and add 1 3/4" to find out what your bow is ACTUALLY drawing.

If you are overdrawing then I doubt you will ever get same hole repeatability.





Liviu said:


> Yes, as I stated previously, the whole block that pulls the release comes to a hard stop at full draw, always in the same spot.
> The following picture shows that stop, under the orange ratchet trigger:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

oneluckypops said:


> If that is the case you are ACTUALLY OVER DRAWING your Bow, Because DL is actually measured from the string to the deepest part of the grip PLUS 1 3/4". Which in your case would only be 27.25" from the string to the deepest part of the grip.


Yes you're right, and I thought about this thing too, but by the time I got the replies about the 1 3/4" offset, the machine was in pieces and I couldn't do any more measurements.
I had it painted and I'll start putting it together this evening in the basement. 
One possibility, because of the wall being too soft/spongy (as someone mentioned) I could've overdraw without noticing. Also, I was doing the tests in a rush, as I said it was on Dec. 31st and I had to hurry because the New Year's Eve party.
Anyway, once I put it together I'll do some tests more diligently.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Here is a hypothetical situation:

We have two excellent target archers (A and B) that always score the same in competitions. They are both right handed, but with bodies that are slightly different (neck length, shoulders width, arms length…).
Consequently, their anchor points are different in relation to the bow.

What they have in common is the draw length – exactly the same. They also like the same poundage on the bow (and they both know a girl named Myrna ).

There is one bow that belongs to archer A, and there is a target.

Questions: 
1) Can archer B with this bow, shoot the same score as archer A?
2) If not, can he shoot the bow as CONSISTENTLY as archer A?

3) What if there are two bows, one that belongs to A and one that belongs to B.
If they swap bows and shoot, would the results be the same?

P.S. Anybody here tried to shoot a bow that, say, belongs to his buddy? And what was the feeling after few shots? Was the grouping satisfatory?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

What the heck is that all about?


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*Spam*



f4irocket said:


> What the heck is that all about?


looks like somein***** done went and spammed ya 

i dont think it would work on me anyway


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Lol....


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Liviu said:


> Here is a hypothetical situation:
> 
> We have two excellent target archers (A and B) that always score the same in competitions. They are both right handed, but with bodies that are slightly different (neck length, shoulders width, arms length…).
> Consequently, their anchor points are different in relation to the bow.
> ...


1) At a guess I would say highly unlikely as the sight ratio (peep to arrow) would be different.
2) Very possible.
I've had buddies shoot my bows and shoot tight groups. The groups usually impact in a different spot to where I set my sights though.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Purka said:


> I've had buddies shoot my bows and shoot tight groups. The groups usually impact in a different spot to where I set my sights though.


This is the "logical thread" that I'm following (again, I'm not that knowledgable about bows, but trying to look at physics, and how it applies),
and I believe that in the end all that matters is that the release/anchor reaches the same point exactly, draw after draw.

We had a nice chat the other day (that _f4irocket_ mentioned), and I tried to make a point about the Hooter Shooter and the straight line travel of the nock (at draw of course).
So I'm throwing it in here as well:
Imagine there is a camera mounted rigid on the bow riser somewhere in the window area, and pointed towards the nock.
Now looking at a movie shot with this camera while the bow is being drawn, what you'll see is the nock wandering up then down (and maybe a little side to side movement as well) while it's moving away toward the anchor point.
Is the nock moving in a straight line?
It's all relative, depending what is the reference, the machine (and the Earth that is sitting on) or the bow.

So in the end, if the bow is moving in the Hooter Shooter (at draw) until it settles, then I'll allow it to move in my machine until it settles.
And if the achor point changes a little from one shot to the next for the purpose of aiming (by dialing the knobs on the X-Y stage), then at next draw cycle, the bow will move and settle again but this time in a different spot (_toroidal doughnut_ principle ).
And then, if nothing is moved anymore the bow will settle again in the SAME SPOT because the conditions are the same and nothing is changed.

Well, this is all theory and there is this Romanian saying: _Theory, like theory but it's the practical application that's killing me_.

I present again (since the're in the Photobucket anyway) the last two shots taken when I was dialing to get the bullseye:

















They are pretty much "same arrow same hole" shots.
Furthermore, all the holes in the yellow circle is me dialing, and the bow reacting the way it's supposed to ( if achor point moved ↓ the bow shot ↑).
And all this with the other "issues" present: DL not optimal, bow holder not slippery enough, cheap release, drop away rest, bow probably not perfectly tuned, and so on...
So, as of now, I'm quite satisfied and not giving up on this design, but likely to go four legged way.

After that we'll see, everything is relative, consequently the Relative is absolute :wink:...

Cheers,
Liviu.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I wish you had your machine back together testing again so we could see if it really matters were you pivot at. The more I think about it the more I think that what you are saying Liviu makes more sense. As long as the string is drawn back to the exact same spot in relationship to the bow there is no way that it should alter anything as long a as the bow floats to a position that as in plane with the string. Like you said once you make your horizontal and vertical adjustments you can back the bow off with the machine and once it you redraw the machine back the bow will settle in to the holder without any torque on it as long as the bow holder allows for it to float which all comes back to the point of using a slick material.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

IMO. and it is just that an OPINION, you are far more educated then I. But if you are making adjustments from the rear you need to have the bow holder pivot NOT just the bow on the slick holder, and honestly the knuckle that was drawn previously imo could have torque issues. I do like the idea of making the adjuments from the back, but I think if you could incorporate a universal joint or a ball socket directly on the holder then you might acheive better results. You could also incorporate a locking mechanism that could be locked after the bow is drawn so that the following shots would already have the holder positioned in the correct alignment.



f4irocket said:


> I wish you had your machine back together testing again so we could see if it really matters were you pivot at. The more I think about it the more I think that what you are saying Liviu makes more sense. As long as the string is drawn back to the exact same spot in relationship to the bow there is no way that it should alter anything as long a as the bow floats to a position that as in plane with the string. Like you said once you make your horizontal and vertical adjustments you can back the bow off with the machine and once it you redraw the machine back the bow will settle in to the holder without any torque on it as long as the bow holder allows for it to float which all comes back to the point of using a slick material.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

oneluckypops said:


> IMO. and it is just that an OPINION, you are far more educated then I. But if you are making adjustments from the rear you need to have the bow holder pivot NOT just the bow on the slick holder, and honestly the knuckle that was drawn previously imo could have torque issues. I do like the idea of making the adjuments from the back, but I think if you could incorporate a universal joint or a ball socket directly on the holder then you might acheive better results. You could also incorporate a locking mechanism that could be locked after the bow is drawn so that the following shots would already have the holder positioned in the correct alignment.


 Please explain what makes you think that the knuckle that is drawn will cause torque because basically it is a universal joint that will pivot in any position relative to were the bow is being pulled to and once the bow is in that position the shoulder bolts through the u-joint can be locked down to maintain that position. It's kind of hard to see unless you are looking at the software and moving the model around to see how the bow floats into any position possible with the that type of joint. I guess what I'm saying is it does everything that your saying that it needs to do floats to any position and is lockable once it reaches that position. Maybe I will make a video so you can watch it. Don't worry about the opinion thing everybody has got one if I didn't want opinions I would have never posted it up on here.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Onelucky,
As far as I can tell, you are more educated then me when it comes to archery stuff (since what I know amounts to nothing).


oneluckypops said:


> ...I think if you could incorporate a universal joint or a ball socket directly on the holder then you might acheive better results. You could also incorporate a locking mechanism that could be locked after the bow is drawn so that the following shots would already have the holder positioned in the correct alignment.


Both these points you're making, are valid and excellent. I thought as well of incorporating a real spherical joint at the bow holder and have the bow clamped onto one "half" of it. Could be something like a U-Joint, CV-Joint or a Ball Joint Rod End.
For now I just want to test the "virtual" joint between the toroidal shaped bow holder and the throat of the bow handle (it's the same as the connection between two sequential chain links, and when a chain is being tensioned, the links will always get aligned with the direction of the pull). And since we're at the chain analogy, here is something I wondered about: Is there torque within a chain? I don't think there is, as one can see how the links always stay perfectly oriented at 90 degress from one to the next.

As I stated before, I really believe that the Hooter Shooter is the better design, I just had to go this route given the circumstances. If it's not going to work, I'll follow the conventional wisdom.

Mike,
Last night I put together the X-Y Stage (it is the most tricky to assemble) and it's moving smooth and easy.
Tonight I'll start putting the frame together. I'm spending a lot of time with paint removal from threaded holes, masking removal, etc...
Once it's done, I'll move it upstairs in the livingroom (the Christmas tree is gone) and take some more pictures, before getting it back to the warehouse (shooting range).
I covered the bow holder with some acrylic paint, it seems better, but not quite there yet.
Would it be too much trouble for you to machine a bow holder, from a harder and slicker material, if I send you the 3D model?


Cheers buddy,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

No problem buddy. Can I use the model you already sent me or do you have a newer model also in the model I have there are mounting holes to mount it to the steel plate not for sure if you epoxy it to it or what. Next question material I have in stock Delrin, UHMW, and cast nylon. I can order some PTFE Teflon from Ebay fairly cheap a piece of 1 x 2 x 6 is about $20.00. So let me know what ya need and I be more than glad to do it for you buddy.

Thanks Mike


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

I will do my best to try to explain this "theory" of mine lol.
I am an Automotive Tech which is where I am getting my theory. When i use a "knuckle" on a ratchet and extension they can very easilly "bind" or what i would call create (tourque). If throw my crap "knuckles" away (which I have) and I replace them with my flex sockets that rotate a full circle then I have eliminated the Binding of the 3 peices to the knuckle. Please dont misunderstande me when I say "crap Knuckles" because I do understand there are places where they are more suited which IMO is for brute strengh.
Does any of my "theory" make any since to you? 

I would love to see a video of your model in action that would be sweet as hell. 
I have a design in my head for a machine that focourse works flawlessly in my head lol I wish I was able to put it on paper or even a model like you have done. Some time when you have time I would love to talk to you and liviu about it.



f4irocket said:


> Please explain what makes you think that the knuckle that is drawn will cause torque because basically it is a universal joint that will pivot in any position relative to were the bow is being pulled to and once the bow is in that position the shoulder bolts through the u-joint can be locked down to maintain that position. It's kind of hard to see unless you are looking at the software and moving the model around to see how the bow floats into any position possible with the that type of joint. I guess what I'm saying is it does everything that your saying that it needs to do floats to any position and is lockable once it reaches that position. Maybe I will make a video so you can watch it. Don't worry about the opinion thing everybody has got one if I didn't want opinions I would have never posted it up on here.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ok here is a video of the bow floating around to any position imaginable with the u-joint. With the spherical joint at the attaching the release to the staging axis this lets the release align its self with th d-loop so everything is in line with no torque. the only way to solve this issue is to finish this project and prove the concept or go back to the drawing board. I'm sure after my toolmaking buddy DssBB see's this is going to say to himself dumb American i told him he's wasting his time. LOL.:teeth:


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I understand the idea you are basing it on but think about this with the wrench you are putting side load on the u-joint were i'm pulling directly against the u-joint.There is a different in physics of force that are being applied to the different applications. Think of it like the drive shaft on your car as the rear axle pivots around the drive shaft floats to maintain a geometrical correct position to the pinion on the axle. This is getting complicated again once again I think the only way to prove a theory is to build and test.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

Awesome video. 

I understand that your knuckle is pivioting both directions, but to me it should be pivoting behind the grip of the bow for a more natural pivot (like when it is in your hand). 
How much trouble would it be for you to incorporate a ball joint into the bow holder? Can you copy your model to another file for editing with the ball option?


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

Yes i understand that totally. I am not trying to tell you not to build it the way you have drawn, after all it is yours and the only true way of knowing is trying it. 
I have trully enjoyed following this thread and wanted to chime in with my opinions.



f4irocket said:


> I understand the idea you are basing it on but think about this with the wrench you are putting side load on the u-joint were i'm pulling directly against the u-joint.There is a different in physics of force that are being applied to the different applications. Think of it like the drive shaft on your car as the rear axle pivots around the drive shaft floats to maintain a geometrical correct position to the pinion on the axle. This is getting complicated again once again I think the only way to prove a theory is to build and test.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Well think of this if it is behind the bow holder what is it going to naturally want to do with the release being a couple inches above the bow holder it's going to actually want to fold straight backwards Also when you aim your not pivoting your wrist your bending at the waist or rotating at the waist so it really has nothing to do with the wrist. I have no problem with your opinions they are great ones especially the reference to the ratchet. So please don't take me wrong I'm not offended at all.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

oneluckypops said:


> Yes i understand that totally. I am not trying to tell you not to build it the way you have drawn, after all it is yours and the only true way of knowing is trying it.
> I have trully enjoyed following this thread and wanted to chime in with my opinions.


By the way love to hear your Ideas about your design and help you out with drawing it up for you.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

I am in no means an "expert" to all of archery.

I do understand what you are saying with a chain. But I do feel there is torque in it when it is stretched, Look at it like this. Hook 1 end of the chain to a bumper and the other end to a clevis of another vehicle, with the chain tight if the first truck makes a circle wouldnt the chain roll around the clevis? Would that be classified as torque?
What about a chainlink Fence? Is there any torque in it, when it is stretched and secured to the poles? What about if it is stretched but some of the links at knee height are broken loose from the pole, does this creat any torque?




Liviu said:


> Onelucky,
> As far as I can tell, you are more educated then me when it comes to archery stuff (since what I know amounts to nothing).
> 
> Both these points you're making, are valid and excellent. I thought as well of incorporating a real spherical joint at the bow holder and have the bow clamped onto one "half" of it. Could be something like a U-Joint, CV-Joint or a Ball Joint Rod End.
> ...


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Man your cool dude your making me think to hard. There is torque on the one the vehicle that is being pulled against but but the truck that is moving in the circle the chain is always moving with it staying collinear with the truck so imagine that the truck moving in the circle is the bow and the truck setting still is the attachment point of the release to the staging axis.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

f4irocket said:


> By the way love to hear your Ideas about your design and help you out with drawing it up for you.


Cool I will try to get a few sketches of what I am after. Send me a PM with an E-mail addy and I will send them to you.
Cant thank you enough


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

F4irocket, you are on the right track! Your design is right and will work. You have accomplished what I have been trying to think about how to accomplish for a while now. As far as binding is concerned with the riser to the mount, I have been thinking of a different way to mount it so that it will float in the y shape yoke you are using. How about some ball bearings mounted to the inside of it so that it can't bind and will find its true neutrality while being drawn? 

One other thing to think about is if you do use this design you'll need some type of stop to keep the bow from dropping down while attached to that swivel arm.

Simplicity is good but when one has access to all that you do why not make it the ultimate?

Great work so far.

JT


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Well think of this if it is behind the bow holder what is it going to naturally want to do with the release being a couple inches above the bow holder it's going to actually want to fold straight backwards Also when you aim your not pivoting your wrist your bending at the waist or rotating at the waist so it really has nothing to do with the wrist. I have no problem with your opinions they are great ones especially the reference to the ratchet. So please don't take me wrong I'm not offended at all.


You're nailing it right on here buddy.

We can think of the wrist as a spherical joint, and an archer would move it in whatever position he prefers (high wrist, low wrist), BUT... when drawing the bow the wrist is locked in place, no more movement, the hand becomes a solid rest. Therefore the spherical joint would not work behind the bow.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

oneluckypops said:


> Hook 1 end of the chain to a bumper and the other end to a clevis of another vehicle, with the chain tight if the first truck makes a circle wouldnt the chain roll around the clevis? Would that be classified as torque?
> What about a chainlink Fence? Is there any torque in it, when it is stretched and secured to the poles? What about if it is stretched but some of the links at knee height are broken loose from the pole, does this creat any torque?


In this particular case (the machine I'm building) the clevis that you mention would have a rotating capability (think of a spring snap on a dog leash), therefore it will rotate preventing torqueing.
Thinking of the dog as being the truck in you example (a dog leash with a rotating clip at the end will not twis- theoretically - no friction).
In the chainlink fence example there is torque in every point of contact between wires, but this is a totally different animal.
I was thinking only of the usual links oval in shape and made from round wire. That connection between two of the links is applicable in the bow holder-handle configuration.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu said:


> In this particular case (the machine I'm building) the clevis that you mention would have a rotating capability (think of a spring snap on a dog leash), therefore it will rotate preventing torqueing.
> Thinking of the dog as being the truck in you example (a dog leash with a rotating clip at the end will not twis- theoretically - no friction).
> In the chainlink fence example there is torque in every point of contact between wires, but this is a totally different animal.
> I was thinking only of the usual links oval in shape and made from round wire. That connection between two of the links is applicable in the bow holder-handle configuration.


I agree with you Liviu the chain link fence thing has multiple points of contact that is in no way like a bow.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

BowhunterJT said:


> F4irocket, you are on the right track! Your design is right and will work. You have accomplished what I have been trying to think about how to accomplish for a while now. As far as binding is concerned with the riser to the mount, I have been thinking of a different way to mount it so that it will float in the y shape yoke you are using. How about some ball bearings mounted to the inside of it so that it can't bind and will find its true neutrality while being drawn?
> 
> One other thing to think about is if you do use this design you'll need some type of stop to keep the bow from dropping down while attached to that swivel arm.
> 
> ...


Thanks JT

I like the idea of the bearings may look into that right now just trying to finish up what I got it seems like every week I'm adding something else just prolonging me finishing it. I'm like a little kid in a toy store just can't wait to get it out and play with it.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Thanks JT
> 
> I like the idea of the bearings may look into that right now just trying to finish up what I got it seems like every week I'm adding something else just prolonging me finishing it. I'm like a little kid in a toy store just can't wait to get it out and play with it.


Maybe you can play with a U-Joint.
Buy one (se what size fits best), take it apart, keep the cross and the roller bearings, throw away the two cast iron yokes and make your own
(as in welded bushings on the square tubing ends and then machined with your fancy CNC machinery... YOU... lucky you :wink
You'll have to keep the distance between the bushings on the same component (and the distance between the snap ring grooves), as on the original yokes. This way it's sure that the assembly can be assembled and dissasembled just like the original
(of course you'll be testing it in the 3D model as well)

Cheers buddy


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,

I never had any doubt in your ability as a videographer.:greenwithenvy:

Cheers buddy.
DssBB


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

i started actually use an automotive type u-joint but I was to lazy to go through all the trouble of measuring it and all. :wink: I brought the press home tonight just to try out the press part it works great. It only takes about half a turn and the string is loose as a goose fingers don't interfere with any thing so that all turned out good.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

DssBB said:


> f4irocket,
> 
> I never had any doubt in your ability as a videographer.:greenwithenvy:
> 
> ...


Hey it looks good in the computer may never work but dang it looks cool? :teeth:


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,

Your press design is one of the best I've ever seen and it will work very well. Once it's finished, throw it in the truck and bring it up to the great white north here and we'll set it up beside the "Uber Shooters" and fling arrows for the day. Hell, maybe you could convince the powers to be at the Worlds to set up a new division for us.:grin::grin::grin:


PS....hurry up and finish off the press, as there are more projects to be done.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*Pos*

F4irocket

it's done man ,, i made a reply to you back on 12-25 and ask if you mind if i do one , 
well i finished it today , this project took alot of my hours more than 50 hrs easy 
the next time i ever say on here i can do one in a day and post back slap me please 
i really went outside the box here and made a compound bow tuning center 
so i will go ahead and give it a name .
*Compound Bow Tuning Center *
so it does everything you listed in the post a Linear Press/ Draw Board/ Shooting Machine and some added features . i will post some pics next week .

TS2


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## TozerBGood (Aug 16, 2003)

Been following the thread. I'm not sure if any of you have seen this video on the subject of arrow variance, especially nocks.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

TargetShooter2 said:


> F4irocket
> 
> it's done man ,, i made a reply to you back on 12-25 and ask if you mind if i do one ,
> well i finished it today , this project took alot of my hours more than 50 hrs easy
> ...


It's time consuming building one of these it has taken me longer than I thought also. Can't wait till you post some pics. Great name by the way.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

Oh HELLLLLL NO you cant make us wait till next week to see it.

WE WANT PICTURES


TargetShooter2 said:


> F4irocket
> 
> it's done man ,, i made a reply to you back on 12-25 and ask if you mind if i do one ,
> well i finished it today , this project took alot of my hours more than 50 hrs easy
> ...


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*compound bow tuning center*



oneluckypops said:


> Oh HELLLLLL NO you cant make us wait till next week to see it.
> 
> WE WANT PICTURES


Ok ok ,, 
i understand !!
here's your pic for now 

it started out with just a few tack welds , and now well you see next week ...


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## Out West (Mar 6, 2008)

Nice looking setup. Is it actually in production yet?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

If your asking me mine mine is about 80% complete.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Finally,
Last night I finished putting it back together and I took a few snapshots from all the angles.

First one is taken from rear right









Front right









Front left








It's visible in the above picture how the release is aligned with the bow holder-handle point of contact.

Now, I know that routinely the cams must be inspected with a _keen eye_,
as for me... I prefer to have them inspected with a _canine eye_... it's more accurate









I have some close-ups if anybody is looking for details, nothing that I haven't posted before just painted...

Liviu
P.S. Mike, you can see the bow holder now painted yellow.
Well, if I tug on the bow gently to make it move I can hear it squeaking. That probably means it got worse friction-wise, but I'll try it anyway this weekend.
Cheers Buddy.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Man that thing looks sharp. Teflon was ordered today should be here next Wednesday. I changed the radius to 0.625 programs are already wrote so just waiting on material. I will ship to you priority mail do you think there will be any problems with customs? I hear it takes forever for something to make it through customs.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> I will ship to you priority mail do you think there will be any problems with customs? I hear it takes forever for something to make it through customs.


Maybe if you specify on the packing slip that the parts are for a Shooting Machine it would go smoother through customs. What do you think? :grin:


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I think neither one of us would be doing any testing for a while :shade: I will list it as a adult toy.


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

I wanted to link these two machines for you guys, to show you RollinRon's powered bow press using a tv antenna actuator setup. If an adjustable limiter switch or dead stop could be set up with this it would be perfect for the "Compound Bow Tuning Center" so you don't over-draw the bow. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1403045 

Great work on designing the machines, mine pales in comparison!


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

Please dont let us know how it works? 



f4irocket said:


> I think neither one of us would be doing any testing for a while :shade: I will list it as a adult toy.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Stab 'em said:


> I wanted to link these two machines for you guys, to show you RollinRon's powered bow press using a tv antenna actuator setup. If an adjustable limiter switch or dead stop could be set up with this it would be perfect for the "Compound Bow Tuning Center" so you don't over-draw the bow. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1403045
> 
> Great work on designing the machines, mine pales in comparison!


Love to use one of these I found one on Ebay for 99.00 I'm no electrician so hooking one up to 110 out let and wiring the switch would be my hardest problem. Plus what I'm wanting to do is to remove the drive screw in it and attach it to the other end of my hand wheel so I could do final draw length adjustments with the hand wheel. So are there any electricians who can tell me every thing I would need to hook this up?


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

It should not be that difficult to hook it up. 
You want a foot pedal controls or hand controls or even both?
you will need a converter box that goes from A/C-D/C.



f4irocket said:


> Love to use one of these I found one on Ebay for 99.00 I'm no electrician so hooking one up to 110 out let and wiring the switch would be my hardest problem. Plus what I'm wanting to do is to remove the drive screw in it and attach it to the other end of my hand wheel so I could do final draw length adjustments with the hand wheel. So are there any electricians who can tell me every thing I would need to hook this up?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Been researching it for a couple hours now seems it will be pretty simple.


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## jlnel (Dec 22, 2009)

crap thats nice!!



Liviu said:


> Finally,
> Last night I finished putting it back together and I took a few snapshots from all the angles.
> 
> First one is taken from rear right
> ...


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Been researching it for a couple hours now seems it will be pretty simple.


 Mike,
Are you thinking of one that fits inside your "drive beam"?





jlnel said:


> crap thats nice!!


Thanks man!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm wanting to modify it to fit my threaded rod which is already in the press. I want to attach it so that it will be the flange bearing then the hand wheel then the actuator so I can keep the hand wheel for fine adjustment. It's kind of hard to explain. From what I seen the shaft on the linear motor comes off and the actuator threaded rod can be removed then I can attach min threaded rod with some machining of course to it. I have a friend that has an old one he told me to come get it so it's a freebie then i can start modifying.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Mike,
I understand what you want.
Here are some of my thoughts:
Rollin Ron's actuator has a 19:1 gear ratio (info from his post).
Now, I wonder how much is the mass of the rotor inside the electric motor, and the mass of the pinion in that gear box (hopefully is not a worm-gear). 
If all the parts that are moving at high rpm have a significant mass therefore inertia, it could be hard to use a handwheel (but not impossible).
In other words, if you want to adjust it by hand, for every rotation of the handwheel, the rotor+pinion will have to rotate 19 times.

Once you get that freebie you can test this. I hope it will work for fine adjustment.
Cheers


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu,
I was thinking about that also hoping that the extra leverage of the 8 inch hand wheel may overcome some of that but that is a lot of gear ratio. Here is something else I was looking at http://cgi.ebay.com/Horizon-Treadmi...ness_Cardio&hash=item27b8252645#ht_534wt_1139. These are linear motors on treadmills the have 500lbs of lift but the gear ratio is a lot worse. The other thing I was thinking is that these are 120 volt ac so it doesn't need a converter and the switch can be used directly off the tread mill. 

On another topic I finished my bow holder today. I ended up making it out of cast nylon oil filled. My reasons for doing this are two things. I had some small pieces of Teflon and I thought i would test the hardness by pressing a 3/4 diameter rod against it with about 70lbs of force. Well the results were that it actually it compressed into the Teflon a small amount when I measured it with a test indicator and it was indented about 0.006. My thoughts were that the bow may work itself into a groove in the Teflon so I opted for a harder material but I wanted to keep the coefficient of friction down which the Nyloil does this with a rating of 0.12 and the hardness is comparable to Delrin. Here are some pictures of it finished machine it hasn't been polished but the surface tester confirmed the surface finish to be equivalent to a fine ground finish. The pictures are not the best in the world.What are your thoughts about this material Liviu am I thinking correctly about the softness of the Teflon?


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Mike,
Maybe you can ask Rollin Ron to check this for you. I guess it would be rather easy to remove the gear box cover and test it with a socket wrench. There must be a locknut at the end of the lead screw.
There is yet another alternative if the linear actuator version it's not going to pan out.
When you mentioned power and handwheel combination, I remembered the power feeds (as in a milling machine feed).

They have the lever for switching the direction of travel (and when in mid position, the bevel gears inside are disengaged, for handwheel use ). 
The variable speed adjusting knob is also a nice feature for setting different speeds (faster for the shooting machine, slow for bow pressing),
and there is also a little rubber capped momentary push button for rapid travel.

Another usable feature would be the flanged mounting configuration, that makes it easy to implement in a design like this.
The shaft end would have to be machined at a diam. of 5/8" and a 1/8" key slot (that a common design).
There are two kinds of mounting geometries: one with a wide fat plate (for X and Y axis), and another with a round hub, (for Z axis)

I have to leave right now. Give you an answer on the bow holder material in a couple of hours. You raised good points that worry me.
I liked the idea of testing teflon under load to see what happens. Got me thinking.

Cheers,
later buddy


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu said:


> Mike,
> Maybe you can ask Rollin Ron to check this for you. I guess it would be rather easy to remove the gear box cover and test it with a socket wrench. There must be a locknut at the end of the lead screw.
> There is yet another alternative if the linear actuator version it's not going to pan out.
> When you mentioned power and handwheel combination, I remembered the power feeds (as in a milling machine feed).
> ...


I checked into one of those the cheapest I found was 180 but it would be easier to attach it. I have one on my bridgeport if I didn't. Use it I would take that one but it sucks cutting a 20 inch long key way or something of that nature by hand.lol 

Another thing I got to thinking about is I want to my machine to make it a complete tuning machine is a nock travel measuring attachment got most of it drawed up I will post pics tomorrow. Man I keep adding crap to this I'm never going to get done.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> I checked into one of those the cheapest I found was 180 but it would be easier to attach it.


True they are a little expensive but... here are some pointers:

It's pretty much a plug and play solution. No extra wiring required, just a 110V outlet.

There is the built-in variable speed controller, an option that could probably cost in the vicinity of a $100 if you decide you want it.

Then there is the built in travel limit switch. Another nice, and more importantly, safety feature, not mentioned before (it will protect the DRO system).
In paranthesis, you've seen this switch on the Bridgeport, bolted to the machine body (and with spring-loaded stems poking through, on both sides).
And the adjustable End-Stops, that come in contact with the switch, are bolted in a T-slot on the moving table.

As a parenthesis, I don't know if this switch is NO (normally open) or NC (normally close), but either way you can wire another switch easlily, in order to have two at each end of the travel (better from a design point of view, since you have the slot in the main beam cut already for the digital reader bracket).
Chances are, that is NC and when the End-Stop comes in contact it just opens, depowering the motor. Then, you can have another NC limit switch _series-wired_ with the existing one.
(if the orignal is NO, then the second switch should be also NO and _parallel-wired_, but I don't think that's the case).
That's it, the more I think about this one the more I like it.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu said:


> True they are a little expensive but... here are some pointers:
> 
> It's pretty much a plug and play solution. No extra wiring required, just a 110V outlet.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of being able to have the ability for safety. I can imagine if one of these motors went nuts and over drawn your bow I'm sure that would be a bomb. I found this one on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/150-Z-KNEE-AXIS...ltDomain_0&hash=item518e0ada30#ht_6140wt_1242 it has 150lbs of torque. I know the one I have on my Bridge port has plenty of power I have snapped 3/4 endmills like toothpicks before with it. I think this is the way to go I like the plug and play thing. 

What did you think about the Teflon issues I brought up? Let me know buddy. If you want one out of the Nyloil I have plenty of that material.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

I looked at the eBay power feed, and noticed something else didn't know they have: the mounting adapter with keyway slot. It would make it easier to implement in a bow press.

Now, playing devil's advocate, there is one drawback with power feed alternative: the location of the engaging lever cannot be changed, it's always gonna be at the end of the lead screw.
If one wants the power switch on a pendant control box , and the possibility of watching something closely while drawing (checking the cams sync for example), that would be possible with the linear actuator.
The closest thing to this arrangement, with a power feed, would be yet another momentary button wired in conjunction with the end-of-travel switches, located on a six foot cabled pendant box, that you hold in your hand.
You can have the feed rate set very low (that's another plus on power feeds, they could get down to 0 in/sec), and press this button whenever you want to stop the drawing cycle, for checking whatever needs to be checked.

Now, for the bow holder issue.
The Teflon compression yield was always a concern.
In the PM sent to you, I mentioned that one website showed the teflon a little harder then UHMW and that gave me some reassurance.
Now I'm not that sure anymore.

I wonder if there is a remote possibility of "work hardening" on the Teflon material.

Can you try and do the same test again, but a little different this time.
Before pressing the 3/4" rod onto material, try and put the teflon piece between two flat metal surfaces and give it a good squeeze in a bench vise (or H-press if you have one).
Then do the test check the indentation and see if it's the same.

Right now I'm leaving to my workplace. I purchased a 3D Rover rest and have to get there for changing it, as I want to use a digital caliper for measuring the exact position of the arrow, now with the existin rest and after .
If time permits I'll do some shooting too.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I will try that for you tomorrow I'm betting your right the compression should harden it. The other thing I got to thinking is the test I done wasn't actually a true test because with the 3/4 rod was using a single line contact point were the bow should be hitting tangent points on both sides of the grip. 

It shouldn't be hard to hook up a to hook up a third momentary type switch. The other thing is I have had a few of these power feeds apart replacing the gears and the rapid travel buttons before. If I remember correctly the handle that actuates the motor either in forward or reverse is basically a rocker switch and the variable speed switch is basically a dimmer switch for like electrical lights. I'm sure that with a little ingenuity a person could make up a hand held remote that you could operate both the forward and reverse and the speed.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ok this is the last thing I'm adding except for a bow vise already have it drawn. So with this attachment now I consider this to be as TargetShooter2 has dubbed it Compound Bow Tuning Center so here are the pictures doesn't have a weight scale drawn in it but you know where it goes. So if any one who can think of anything else to add let me know.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

I may be overthinking things again but let me throw this at you.
If I understand you correctly you all are thinking about 2 "limiting switches" 1 for forward travel and one for Reverse Travel. Correct?
If the Powerfeed you 2 are talking about already has the 1, then adding another will NOT be difficult at all really. In my thinking all you should have to do is. Find out if the limiting switch that is on the powerfeed is on the forward/ or Reverse of the motor. Which ever side of the motor it is on you just need to tap into the OTHER side of the motors power @ the forward or reverse switch with your other limiting switch. Which you should be able to use any momentarty switch that is *rated for the voltage and amps of the motor.* 
Also for your hand held controller box all you need to do for that is, use a rehostat switch that is rated for the voltage and amps of the motor.
If you need help with wiring the switches then i would help you out, But with out having it here at my fingertips a diagram or shematics would make it alot easier for me.




f4irocket said:


> I will try that for you tomorrow I'm betting your right the compression should harden it. The other thing I got to thinking is the test I done wasn't actually a true test because with the 3/4 rod was using a single line contact point were the bow should be hitting tangent points on both sides of the grip.
> 
> It shouldn't be hard to hook up a to hook up a third momentary type switch. The other thing is I have had a few of these power feeds apart replacing the gears and the rapid travel buttons before. If I remember correctly the handle that actuates the motor either in forward or reverse is basically a rocker switch and the variable speed switch is basically a dimmer switch for like electrical lights. I'm sure that with a little ingenuity a person could make up a hand held remote that you could operate both the forward and reverse and the speed.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

f4irocket said:


> Ok this is the last thing I'm adding except for a bow vise already have it drawn. So with this attachment now I consider this to be as TargetShooter2 has dubbed it Compound Bow Tuning Center so here are the pictures doesn't have a weight scale drawn in it but you know where it goes. So if any one who can think of anything else to add let me know.
> View attachment 985114
> View attachment 985164


I hope you don't mind me saying .... But I think the distance from the pen to the string is too great and on the wrong side of the string. IMO.
Also bear in mind to get an accurate nock travel reading, the distance from the pulling point to the string needs to be such (the longer the better) as to not influence the nock travel....


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I actually based it off the one that Oldbuck uses. I'm not sure why it would matter what side of the string the pin is on other because of it being mounted in such the manner it's going to follow the path the nock travels also the farther the pin is from the point that you attach the pin then the more the movement the nock is going to compound the movement of the pin so the pin right now is 1.5 inches in front of the pin that holds your string I could get it closer but I really don't see the benefit to it. I'm not saying your wrong I'm asking for explanation of what your saying so I can learn from it. I understand your point about the pulling point its about 3.5 inches from the nocking point. Once again I based the drawing off a picture of Oldbucks. Please give me more insight Purka?


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

f4irocket said:


> I actually based it off the one that Oldbuck uses. I'm not sure why it would matter what side of the string the pin is on other because of it being mounted in such the manner it's going to follow the path the nock travels also the farther the pin is from the point that you attach the pin then the more the movement the nock is going to compound the movement of the pin so the pin right now is 1.5 inches in front of the pin that holds your string I could get it closer but I really don't see the benefit to it. I'm not saying your wrong I'm asking for explanation of what your saying so I can learn from it. I understand your point about the pulling point its about 3.5 inches from the nocking point. Once again I based the drawing off a picture of Oldbucks. Please give me more insight Purka?


 I am probably over thinking things here. My first thoughts were string pinch on the pen holder, but after looking at oldbucks photos on the Elite forum, this looks like a nonevent. My second thoughts were the radius formed from the pin (centre point) to the pen, when testing a bow with excessive nock travel (x-y)
I am really terrible at explaining things. By the pulling point to the string, I mean the winch to the string.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Well the way I see it as the string is hooked around the pin this is the pivot point as long as the crank point stays directly behind the center line of the string and the tangent point of the contact of the pin. I even have a fixture drawn up that will square the bow string up to the fixture. I think this is what is key to this fixture.

Here is a picture showing how the cable attachment will be directly behind the center of the nock point.


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

Guys, awesome designs. I am going to make my own draw board and want to know the winch that was recommended over a boat winch? I thought it was "worm gear" but can't find it. It was stated that a boat winch can't go to exact lengths because of the clicks where the other winch can?
Thanks.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

f4irocket said:


> Well the way I see it as the string is hooked around the pin this is the pivot point as long as the crank point stays directly behind the center line of the string and the tangent point of the contact of the pin. I even have a fixture drawn up that will square the bow string up to the fixture. I think this is what is key to this fixture.
> 
> Here is a picture showing how the cable attachment will be directly behind the center of the nock point.
> View attachment 985850


When the bow is fully drawn, what would be the distance between the nocking point and the crank point fixture ?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Not sure what you asking the bow and the table actually are what is travelling so the point from where the cable attaches to the press to where the cable attaches to the fixture that retains the string never changes.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Ah, I see ( said the blind man). Interesting design.
I better leave you guys alone for awhile.:thumbs_up


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Your not bothering me at all I'm all for new ideas and questions.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

To whom it might interest.

I took _peregrine_'s and his buddy idea and advice, so I redesigned the bow holder, and of course keeping it in line with the KICC principle, here is the result:
A pic where the riser shows:










And one from "below" without the riser (the bow holder is transparent for better understanding):








In the above picture, releasing the tension in the bottom screws, allows for rotation from _high wrist _ to _low wrist_ position.


The last one, as an "exploded" view that shows the _canting plate_ between the holder and the body:








Two 5/16-18 rods are threaded into the plate from the front, and two 1/4-20 HSCS are bolted into the plate through the main body from the opposite side.
The body has two circular slots to allow rotation: about 8 degrees each way.
The canting plate rotates on a 5/16 central pin. The canting angle is adjustable by means of two vertical 1/4-20 set screws.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Looks great my friend. PM me what you need from me.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

That looks very impressive.
Just one thought (here I go again) when the bow rolls forward after the shot would the lower part of grip make contact with the metal ?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Depends on how tight the strap is and how much it lets it rotate.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Purka said:


> That looks very impressive.
> Just one thought (here I go again) when the bow rolls forward after the shot would the lower part of grip make contact with the metal ?


As Mike said it before, your thoughts are welcomed.

It's a very good question, and the answer is it probably would come in contact, if it isn't for a cross bar mounted on the machine (see it again in this pic):









A soft urethane strip or something to that nature will be bolted onto it. The bow would just slightly tip forward until it comes in contact with the urethane strip.
When bow is vertical, the distance bewteen the wooden handle and the aluminum body is 5/8".
So without the cross bar, the bow has to rotate approx. 25 degrees to come in contact.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Purka,

I put a big chamfer on the bottom edge of the aluminum body, now the bow has to rotate over 31 degrees before it comes in contact.
Like Mike said, if the front strap is close enough it will now probably prevent contact even in the absence of the cross bar.

All these considerations with my handle modelled.
There are so many different handle geometries out there, that is probably better to have the cross bar on, all the time.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*bow*



Purka said:


> That looks very impressive.
> Just one thought (here I go again) when the bow rolls forward after the shot would the lower part of grip make contact with the metal ?


Purka 

even if it does it shouldnt matter as the bow has came back to brace and the arrow has left the bow and now the recoil or the engery force is being transferred in recoil .


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I think he was just thinking of the possibility of damage to the bow. By the way were are those pictures buddy?


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

Great  one more thing, launcher clearance on the top of the back plate ?


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

Guys, awesome designs. I am going to make my own draw board and want to know the winch that was recommended over a boat winch? I thought it was "worm gear" but can't find it. It was stated that a boat winch can't go to exact lengths because of the clicks where the other winch can?
Thanks.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*bow*



f4irocket said:


> By the way were are those pictures buddy?


there comming , this thing is like a girl on prom night , she has to be perfect before she leaves the house you know . i think im still on for later this week , have to do alittle milling on a part that i want to modify as i been tweekin it all week but it's about 98% done to my satisfaction as far as looks and function and workin 10-12 hrs a day and driving back and forth i only have a couple hrs a day when i get home to do any work and then it's fricken cold out is the garage /shop 24x36x10 so im draggin alittle ,

on your press did you go with fingers like everyone else on here that builds one of these presses ?? i cut out two differnt sizes 1/2 & 3/4 of fingers and when i got around to addressing the press i didnt want to use the fingers as i didnt want the EZpress folks to think that their fingers is the only way to go on a press when someone on this forum builds a press in the DIY forum , so i got out some angle plates
and started picturing what i needed in my mind and in 20 minutes i had my bow limb adjusting plates on paper and done and mounted in 24 hrs , it was so easy a caveman can doit you know !!

i know seein is believin , and we need pics but it almost done and i can move on to my next project and finish some projects that i have settin because this one has kinda snowballed on construction and went way beyond your basic press on this forum .


TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Longbow42 said:


> Guys, awesome designs. I am going to make my own draw board and want to know the winch that was recommended over a boat winch? I thought it was "worm gear" but can't find it. It was stated that a boat winch can't go to exact lengths because of the clicks where the other winch can?
> Thanks.


Beastmaster will probably answer that question better than us we are not using winches but I think I read some were that guys are using the worm gear type and then a turn buckle on the cable between the release do do final draw adjustments


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

TargetShooter2 said:


> there comming , this thing is like a girl on prom night , she has to be perfect before she leaves the house you know . i think im still on for later this week , have to do alittle milling on a part that i want to modify as i been tweekin it all week but it's about 98% done to my satisfaction as far as looks and function and workin 10-12 hrs a day and driving back and forth i only have a couple hrs a day when i get home to do any work and then it's fricken cold out is the garage /shop 24x36x10 so im draggin alittle ,
> 
> on your press did you go with fingers like everyone else on here that builds one of these presses ?? i cut out two differnt sizes 1/2 & 3/4 of fingers and when i got around to addressing the press i didnt want to use the fingers as i didnt want the EZpress folks to think that their fingers is the only way to go on a press when someone on this forum builds a press in the DIY forum , so i got out some angle plates
> and started picturing what i needed in my mind and in 20 minutes i had my bow limb adjusting plates on paper and done and mounted in 24 hrs , it was so easy a caveman can doit you know !!
> ...


I used the normal type finger because I was really focused on keeping the press basic I was more focused on the shooting machine and the drawboard. I know what you mean by snowballing as you see my has evolved into a completely different animal than when I first started. Can't wait to see your pics.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

any new updates on Progress yet?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

oneluckypops said:


> any new updates on Progress yet?


I been busy but I did finish the staging axis up over the week end here are some pics.


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

Great machining work there f4irocket! Can't wait to see the finished product.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Stab 'em said:


> Great machining work there f4irocket! Can't wait to see the finished product.


Thanks buddy.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Liviu,
So how is the mount coming? I just bought one of the power feeds for a mill. This is the ebay link to it. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...82013&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_4760wt_1242
I have a remote started so I can modify the controls to be handheld. I went through all the wiring diagram and the speed control is pretty simple. Basically it is a potentiometer. So this maybe a pretty is task to do at least I have my self talked into that. Let me know when you get your holder hopefully it will be there soon.

By the way Targetshooter2 were are those pictures you promised last week buddy. I'm anxious to see what mods you did.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Hey Liviu,
> So how is the mount coming? I just bought one of the power feeds for a mill ...So this maybe a pretty is task to do at least I have my self talked into that. Let me know when you get your holder hopefully it will be there soon.


Hey Mike,
Here are a couple of shots of the finished mount

















All the hardware, including the 5/8 x 4" Shoulder Screw, was from McMaster. A grand total of $40.

I still have to finish the aluminum C-Channel. The small set-screws with little swiveling pads (seen in the above pic) would push against it.
It's just four bolting holes of .26" to be drilled, no biggie.
Haven't got the holder yet (checked the mail box Saturday evening). I guess it should arrive any day now. Anxious to test it.

As for the Power Feed, I think it's a good choice; and yes the electrical arrangement that you describe it's called a "remote pot" in layman's terms. It's gonna be sweet.

Cheers Buddy

P.S. For reference, the mount it's made from an aluminum rest of a $100 DeWalt bench grinder.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu said:


> Hey Mike,
> Here are a couple of shots of the finished mount
> 
> 
> ...


Hey good use of a Dewalt grinder. The whole setup looks good. Hopefully the customs will let your part through soon. I sent a part to Australia a few months back it took a good 3 weeks to get there. I was worried to death that it got lost. 

My power feed is suppose to be here Thursday so I will be doing some wiring this weekend if it goes bad this could be one of my last post!!!!HAHA:flame:


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*pos*



f4irocket said:


> Hey Liviu,
> So how is the mount coming? I just bought one of the power feeds for a mill. This is the ebay link to it. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...82013&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_4760wt_1242
> I have a remote started so I can modify the controls to be handheld. I went through all the wiring diagram and the speed control is pretty simple. Basically it is a potentiometer. So this maybe a pretty is task to do at least I have my self talked into that. Let me know when you get your holder hopefully it will be there soon.
> 
> By the way Targetshooter2 were are those pictures you promised last week buddy. I'm anxious to see what mods you did.


i really thought i was done and finished until i saw something else that i wanted to add to the center , it will be worth the wait if not you can laugh my @ss right back to the cornfields where i came from :nixon::nixon:
TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

TargetShooter2 said:


> i really thought i was done and finished until i saw something else that i wanted to add to the center , it will be worth the wait if not you can laugh my @ss right back to the cornfields where i came from :nixon::nixon:
> TS2


Hey I know what ya mean I keep adding stuff my self. I ordered a camera bipod mount yesterday to add to the press for a bow vise. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-HORUS-BENNU...ultDomain_0&hash=item41455d6371#ht_5898wt_905 I'm going to do a little tool and die modification to it.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*pos*



f4irocket said:


> Hey I know what ya mean I keep adding stuff my self. I ordered a camera bipod mount yesterday to add to the press for a bow vise. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-HORUS-BENNU...ultDomain_0&hash=item41455d6371#ht_5898wt_905 I'm going to do a little tool and die modification to it.


these things are gonna be cool as hell , or one hell of a laugh !!

i got a vice , even got a scope /spotting scope mount when you want to shoot to a hundred yards and see your arrows right now i have a old 3x9x50 on it . what i'm adding now is a string jig all built in nice and neat little package . my wife thought i was done with this until i mention the jig , she went and got a tv remote and said might as well add this to the little boy's toy ...
you know she keep me in check somtimes .
later

TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

TargetShooter2 said:


> these things are gonna be cool as hell , or one hell of a laugh !!
> 
> i got a vice , even got a scope /spotting scope mount when you want to shoot to a hundred yards and see your arrows right now i have a old 3x9x50 on it . what i'm adding now is a string jig all built in nice and neat little package . my wife thought i was done with this until i mention the jig , she went and got a tv remote and said might as well add this to the little boy's toy ...
> you know she keep me in check somtimes .
> ...


Sounds cool man can wait to see it.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

f4irocket said:


> Hey I know what ya mean I keep adding stuff my self. I ordered a camera bipod mount yesterday to add to the press for a bow vise. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-HORUS-BENNU...ultDomain_0&hash=item41455d6371#ht_5898wt_905 I'm going to do a little tool and die modification to it.


 That is an interesting ball head. One of my other passions is wildlife photography. I have an Arca swiss ball head that cost me $600.00 30 yrs. ago. I would be really interested ion your opinion of the quality of this head. Also interested in your adaptation for a vise.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

peregrine82 said:


> That is an interesting ball head. One of my other passions is wildlife photography. I have an Arca swiss ball head that cost me $600.00 30 yrs. ago. I would be really interested ion your opinion of the quality of this head. Also interested in your adaptation for a vise.


I'm no photographer but i can give you my opinion of the craftsmanship of it when I get it. This one is suppose to be able to support 18lbs so it should have no problem with a bow. When i get it and do the mods i want to i will post it. I actually had drawn one up and was about to machine one out when some one on here had posted a bow vise made fro a camera tripod. So I researched it a little and I can buy this one cheaper than I could machine it so we will see what the out come is when i finish.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> I actually had drawn one up and was about to machine one out when some one on here had posted a bow vise made fro a camera tripod. So I researched it a little and I can buy this one cheaper than I could machine it so we will see what the out come is when i finish.


Mike & Bobby, 
You might also want to check/google "Stanley MaxSteel Multi-Angle" base vise.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I looked at one of those but I decided on the one I bought because i wanted something a little more compact plus red is my favorite color.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*""The Compund bow Tuning Center ""*

f4irocket
Hows it going on your end ?? 

i came here the last of Dec and made a reply to your thread here , well it been a good ride but i'm 99% sure i'm done now . my plans was to build one in a day really build two keep one and sell the other one as i build stuff all the time thats how i pay for my machines and tooling they have to help pay for themselfs as tooling can get into alot of money pretty quick . so this thing was done and then i really looked at it and as a past shop owner i had a good understanding what a archer needs to fully work on the bows either in a shop or at home , and i started adding features and here they are all in a neat compact center.
it contains :
a press ~~no ez press fingers was used in this design ~~
shooting /draw check machine
bow holders both vertical & horizontal
paper tuner
chronograph
string jig 11ft 132 inches , with 0 to 3400 rpm motor 
plus some other features :::

total hrs well over a hundred 
money havent figured it all up yet 
only items that was bought was the wheels and some nuts and bolts,bearings and the used steering wheel i had from a old dune buggy 
all the rest was raw steel flat,square,round , it was all rolled,welded, milled, turned in my shop 
be looking for this to come to the market place soon . this is just a pic if i posted pics of all the features it would take several , i have several 
with a 2010 Rezen ,2010Firecat ,2009 split limb bear all being pressed , shot etc,, 
TS2
*remember this ~~~~*








*and now this ~~~~*


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

TargetShooter2 said:


> f4irocket
> Hows it going on your end ??
> 
> i came here the last of Dec and made a reply to your thread here , well it been a good ride but i'm 99% sure i'm done now . my plans was to build one in a day really build two keep one and sell the other one as i build stuff all the time thats how i pay for my machines and tooling they have to help pay for themselfs as tooling can get into alot of money pretty quick . so this thing was done and then i really looked at it and as a past shop owner i had a good understanding what a archer needs to fully work on the bows either in a shop or at home , and i started adding features and here they are all in a neat compact center.
> ...


Looks really good my friend like to see it in action. I got this idea of combining everything into one machine when I took a look at the cost of all the machines you would have to buy to do all this and from what I came up with is a person would have to invest at least $5000.00 to do all this. Not to mention all the space needed to store all the separate machines. Nothing like a multi tasker. Don't know about you but if a person was to make one of these and sell it I'm not sure what it would cost. I'm sure it would be super expensive. Materials isn't the issue it's the man hours. So what is your ideas about this coming to the market place?


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## Bzn Bow Hunter (Jan 30, 2011)

Would you mind posting close up pictures or e-mailing lots of them to me. I would really like to see this beast in actino with all of the attachments, etc...



TargetShooter2 said:


> f4irocket
> Hows it going on your end ??
> 
> i came here the last of Dec and made a reply to your thread here , well it been a good ride but i'm 99% sure i'm done now . my plans was to build one in a day really build two keep one and sell the other one as i build stuff all the time thats how i pay for my machines and tooling they have to help pay for themselfs as tooling can get into alot of money pretty quick . so this thing was done and then i really looked at it and as a past shop owner i had a good understanding what a archer needs to fully work on the bows either in a shop or at home , and i started adding features and here they are all in a neat compact center.
> ...


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*the machine*



f4irocket said:


> Looks really good my friend like to see it in action. I got this idea of combining everything into one machine when I took a look at the cost of all the machines you would have to buy to do all this and from what I came up with is a person would have to invest at least $5000.00 to do all this. Not to mention all the space needed to store all the separate machines. Nothing like a multi tasker. Don't know about you but if a person was to make one of these and sell it I'm not sure what it would cost. I'm sure it would be super expensive. Materials isn't the issue it's the man hours. So what is your ideas about this coming to the market place?


thinking about getting a group of investers , me 2-3 others that has a vision of where this could go and other products that we could bring to market , not bs things the market is full of hype just look at all of the bling for sale in the archery industry now , just good products that work and fills the needs of archers at a good price , 
the pic i posted just shows the front some steel and some pictures in your head if you know what to look for , the real money shot is in the back of the unit that where it all comes together .
then again i could just build them one at a time and sell them ,, the good thing is you dont have to buy the complete unit all at one time you could add on as you go 
press , then shooting machine / etc...
TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Well good luck to you machine looks really good. How well does it shoot any problems as far as repeatability. Would love to see your bow holder for the shooting part.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*machine*



f4irocket said:


> Well good luck to you machine looks really good. How well does it shoot any problems as far as repeatability. Would love to see your bow holder for the shooting part.


zero problems , it's adjustable on all axis with adjustments for any shooting demands thats needed , only draw back on this is i built it very heavy i know now where to use 1/8 , 12 & 14 ga metal . as i used alot of 3/16 in the machine and when you shoot a bow it doesnt even move a 16 th it's that solid of a machine .
i'll see what kind of pics of the holder i took and see about getting one to you 
TS2


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

It looks heavy that's for sure. I guess you don't plan on going mobile


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*machine*



f4irocket said:


> It looks heavy that's for sure. I guess you don't plan on going mobile


sure all you have to do is remove and shelf all items that isnt needed to shoot it out doors , i do have another set of 5 inch wheels for outdoor shooting ,, im going to shoot out to a hundred just for the feedback of the flight of the arrow as soon as the weather turns . you can spin it 360 with one hand it's that easy . when you do see the whole machine and all it can do then you will really see how this girl can party .
TS2


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## Bzn Bow Hunter (Jan 30, 2011)

what exactly are all the features on this bad boy?


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Can't wait to see a video or something share with us please.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

Over the last couple of days I finished all the components of the new wrist, and I installed the bow holder that Mike machined from a 3/4" Teflon piece (Thanks buddy :smile.
Yesterday I did another round of testing and here is a pic of the results (same arrow):









The shooting distance was a little over 75 feet. I marked the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th arrow.

After those 4 shots, everything settled (also myself got into a routine, and did things more consistently shot after shot) and the next 14 shots were between the 3rd (yellow) and 4th (orange) circles,
all in a less than 5/8" (15mm) circle. After 18 shots I had to stop because the arrow was penetrating the target to the fletchings.

The next step is to add a control cable for the release, to remove any variables induced by hand at release.
Will see how it'll change, but overall I'm quite pleased with the Teflon holder.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Looks good buddy glad the holder worked out for you. I think the remote for the release will help a lot. It's amazing how much effect a person can have on the release. Have you had time to fully tune your bow yet? 

I have my power feed mounted and working. It turned out real well. The variable speed is nice. I been so busy I just haven't been able to focus on completely finishing my whole machine. I'm going to have to take some time off just to finish mine.


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## bfoot (Dec 30, 2009)

Liviu said:


> Hey Mike,
> Here are a couple of shots of the finished mount
> 
> 
> ...


Could you provide clear instructions for the pivoting mount. I have not been able to use this as a shooter because aiming is so tedious and for me non-repeatable. I have been trying to think of a way to aim the bow without blocking up the legs or moving the whole thing back and forth. Was considering using a tripod on the ground in front attached to the stab hole and aiming with that if I don't accidentally shoot myself first. I would love to buy one of these from you but if that is not possible make one. I have only a drill press and hand tools though.

Bob


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Liviu,
Here is a pic of the power feed mounted works really good. the variable speed goes all the way down to a crawl on it. And yes in the model view that is a Ryobi stand that I am going to mount it to. Somethings you can buy cheaper than making them yourself :teeth:


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

f4irocket,

It's looking mighty sharp.

I think I'd be tempted to disable the rapid traverse button on the table feed unit as they have been known to stick.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

f4irocket said:


> Hey Liviu,
> Here is a pic of the power feed mounted works really good. the variable speed goes all the way down to a crawl on it.


Hey Mike,
Yep, that's the one I was talking about: with a round hub, used for the vertical travel on milling machines. It is a better/tighter fit for this kind of application.
I think it's better then the linear actuator, having more control. And it sure looks like it belongs 

As for the Ryobi stand, you'd better hurry and buy one, the guys on "the other thread" are buying it in droves :wink:
And no wonder, it is a really nice set-up with that stand; I'm almost sorry that Beastmaster didn't come up with it a year ago.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

bfoot said:


> Could you provide clear instructions for the pivoting mount. I have not been able to use this as a shooter because aiming is so tedious and for me non-repeatable


Hey Bob,
PM your e-mail address. I can send you a 3D pdf file of the mount.
Then, you'll be able to pan, zoom in-out, and rotate the model to get a better ideea of how it works.
I can also e-mail you more detailed pictures if you like.

The zig-zag slots that are visible in the first pic were done to allow flexing in order to clamp onto the shoulder bolt.
The knurled thumb screws (with slots for flat screwdriver) visible in the second picture, are the ones used for clamping.

The _Canting Plate _(the one with two long studs threaded into it) rotates about a central pin (5/16" dowel) visible in the first picture.
It has only an 8 degrees of rotational freedom both ways (CW and CCW). This is necessary as some bows would tend to tilt/cant sideays when drawn. Think scope sight bubble (mine is a LH and the top tilts slightly toward left).
The _Canting Plate_ is set only once, for a particular bow. In the first pic you can actually see that is slightly rotated in reference to the mounting body. That angle is pretty close to what is set right now for my bow, as I mentioned above.

Here are a couple of pictures with the Teflon holder attached:


















I had this one made from a rest for a bench grinder that I stumbled upon in my garage. I had somebody to machine it on an ordinary milling machine. I just made the drawing.
I think it's not feasible (don't like to use the word impossible) to make it with only a drill press and hand tools.
Another thing, the mount was designed and made to suit my machine, as the big shoulder screw is bolted onto a cast iron piece that is one of a kind (salvaged from an old machinery).

Anyway, as mentioned, I can send you more detailed info if you'd like. Just the same, you can send me some info about your design to get a better understanding of it.

Cheers,
Liviu


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

The rapid switch will.be removed and added to the remote along with the variable speed. The limit switches are mounted on the back side and are adjustable so they will be set when the bow is setup for the first time. I already bought one of the Ryobi stands so im good to go there. I also got my camera tripod ball mount in today and it looks to be very high quality it locks up very solid I will post the pics of it when its finished. I want to completly finsih everything before I start the shooting process. I want the bow to be fully tuned before I start shooting arrows.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Liviu man that looks good with the Teflon holder on it. Still think its cool that you built that from a grinder rest. Im so use to making my own stuff from scratch I overlook things that could be bought cheaper than I can make it. I guess I hot to use all my toys for something lol.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Your fabrication work looks very good F4irocket! I really like seeing how technical you are making this project. Nice work. I also think your hinged swivel joint for the bow riser is right on. I think you will need to put a stop below it to hold the bow from falling after the shot though. You have probably already thought about that. 

Nice work.

JT


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks JT. The swivel joint has the capability to be locked into place once the bow is drawn back and it floats into place.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Locked into place by tightening the bolts running through the joint?

JT


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Ya the joints have shoulder bolts that run through them that have a precision fit so when the bow has pressure on iit as you draw it back the bolts will be slightly loose then when the bow is full drawn back and every thing is floated into a stable position then the joint can be locked into a stationary position. That's the plan any way.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Nice!


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks


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## wolfy692005 (Dec 6, 2008)

f4irocket said:


> Thanks got any suggestions for improvements?


holy crap... the press is an awesome idea but the job you on the computer is even more awesome..!!!
nice work


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

wolfy692005 said:


> holy crap... the press is an awesome idea but the job you on the computer is even more awesome..!!!
> nice work



Thanks buddy it's amazing what the correct software is capable of to be honest things like this press is cakewalk to design in it.


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## yard-dart2 (Aug 18, 2010)

Nice adaptation of the mill feed motor, but I agree on the rapid traverse issue. Also, if it's a newer unit it most likely has nylon/teflon gears and if you overrun it to a hard-stop (or just overload them) the gears shear very eaisly, just a word of caution. But I like your design and that press is going to be awsome. 



DssBB said:


> f4irocket,
> 
> It's looking mighty sharp.
> 
> I think I'd be tempted to disable the rapid traverse button on the table feed unit as they have been known to stick.


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## Liviu (Oct 20, 2009)

yard-dart2 said:


> Also, if it's a newer unit it most likely has nylon/teflon gears and if you overrun it to a hard-stop (or just overload them) the gears shear very eaisly, just a word of caution.


I believe that the bevel gears on his unit are good quality.
I remember that the eBay page (Mike posted a link to the one he purchased) showed brass gear.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

yard-dart2 said:


> Nice adaptation of the mill feed motor, but I agree on the rapid traverse issue. Also, if it's a newer unit it most likely has nylon/teflon gears and if you overrun it to a hard-stop (or just overload them) the gears shear very eaisly, just a word of caution. But I like your design and that press is going to be awsome.


All newer power feeds have a main gear that is made of resin the rest of them are steel and the one that engages the acme screw is bronze. That is the safety for an overload in to stop a complete destruction of the entire system. I have limit switches on the rear of the machine to stop the travel beyond what i want it to travel. Plus it's just like any other machine you have to use a bit of common sense keep from getting hurt or damaging the machine. A little common sense goes a long way. I agree that the rapid travels do have a tendency to stick but that is usually after years of oil and coolant build up that makes the button sticky. When I finish the remote for it the rapid will be a toggle type switch and the variable speed will be just like on the feed. 

Thanks for the comments on the press.


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

This is the ball tripod mount added an adapter to make it into a bow vise. It holds very well. peregrine82 you ask what my thoughts were of this tripod mount I would have to say it's pretty impressive there is no slop in it ans it seems to be a quality product for the money. As far a being a bow vise it can be swiveled to any angle you could possibly imagine.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*pos*

hows it comming on your machine ?? 

found another use for mine 
old Skool :wave3:


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

It's coming along this is my busy time of the year at work so not much time for toys. Your press looks good my friend.


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## rand_98201 (Sep 24, 2008)

Ok I cant wait anymore I have to ask if there is anymore progress on your Press? f4irocket


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## monsterbuckrick (Aug 14, 2009)

Interested in the same question.



rand_98201 said:


> Ok I cant wait anymore I have to ask if there is anymore progress on your Press? f4irocket


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## smithpellatt (Jun 29, 2011)

Gentlemen,

I am new this forum and threat, been an archer for 5 years and build my own bowpress a few years ago. I have been following and studying these design /concepts with real interest. Would you mind sharing your plans, and especially the staging axis design in detail, preferably in PDF if possible

Great ideas really inclusive of all required to fine tune any bow
Any help if possible would be appreciated

Thanks


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

f4irocket

did you finish your machine ?? 

mine sets in a basement now collecting dust as i moved on to other projects 

TS2





f4irocket said:


> It's coming along this is my busy time of the year at work so not much time for toys. Your press looks good my friend.


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## KK0605 (Jul 23, 2010)

Began looking at this thread but it seemed to end prematurely. Was the machine ever finished?


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## nycmech (Aug 21, 2012)

pure havoc said:


> heres the one I built a yr ago I use it alot and it works great


i am looking for measurements of the material needed to build that kind of press i have access to all the steel i need


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## abesshop (Mar 1, 2021)

f4irocket said:


> ]First of all I want to thank Gunner7800 and BowhunterJT for there threads of there linear presses. This design is a mix of what I consider the best of all these different presses plus I added a few things of my own to make it a little better. Next a lot of people have pm me about the pictures of this press thinking it's real but actually it is a photoshop image of the design out of my software. So the press hasn't been built yet I am starting on it as soon as possible. I have laser cut some of the parts already. One thing that you will notice about this press is it has interchangeable modules that will let it convert over to a draw press or a shooting machine. It has bearings on both ends of the main tube so to maintain the precision needed to be a shooting machine. Please feel free to give your comments for any improvement that you might see. Once i build this and test it I will make drawings available for every one. One other thing the press dimensions between fingers is 26" to 57".
> Thanks
> View attachment 946920
> View attachment 946921
> ...


I know that this is an old thread, but I was wondering if you ever completed this? I am interested in the parts you used and the drawings you said you would make available.
I would like to take parts of yours and add them to my Ryobi miter saw stand to make my bow press, bow vise, draw board and shooter. 

Thank you for your time and help
Alan


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