# Paper tuning oddity?



## finndawg (11 mo ago)

Hi folks,

Fairly new to archery, trying to understand my gear better and need some advice.

First my specs:
Bow: Mathews V3, ripcord code red rest
DL: 28.5 
DW: #63

Arrows:
Victory VAP TKO gamer
300 spine
Cut to 28-7/8 (done by pro shop)

After breaking in my bow I brought it in to get it paper tuned last season, I hunted with it and now I decided to check the paper tune again as I’m playing with some heavier arrows.

After researching how to tune bows and paper tuning and such it was pretty common theme that when setting up your nock height, you want the arrow straight through the berger hole and have a level arrow.

Well, my arrow is nowhere near level on my rest, however I’m getting decent bullet holes while paper tuning. Does anyone have any idea what is going on here? I’m not sure it matters much as I feel the bow is shooting great, and I’m looking good one paper but I’m curious why my extreme high nock is w

pics:


















if anyone can help me understand this, it would be very appreciated!

thanks,

finndawg


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

Also for the record,

I attempted to reset, and align the nock/rest so the arrow was level with the berger hole and I got extreme nock low tears, so I put it back to this so that I had a bullet hole in the paper.


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## ConnorC247 (Oct 23, 2021)

Have you checked timing?


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## Mighty Mouse (Jul 16, 2019)

Check cam timing on a draw board. I would bet that the bottom cam is ahead of the top cam. If so, you can adjust cable twists to get the cam timing more even then lower the d-loop and/or raise the rest to get your arrow running level through the Berger hole.


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

I have not checked the timing as I think that is a bit past my abilities, I’m assuming I would need a bow press? This was done at a pro shop that has a great reputation so I’m a bit disappointed that this wasn’t done in the first place.


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## rober2wt (Feb 12, 2017)

finndawg said:


> I have not checked the timing as I think that is a bit past my abilities, I’m assuming I would need a bow press? This was done at a pro shop that has a great reputation so I’m a bit disappointed that this wasn’t done in the first place.


you need a draw board.

i wouldnt blame this on the shop. its not uncommon for a bow to come out of time, especially after a long season. i check my timing monthly, and before any major events/trips/hunts.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Take one full turn out of your bottom limbs. I'm assuming you have a V3 27? These bows like stiffer limbs on the top.


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

rober2wt said:


> you need a draw board.
> 
> i wouldnt blame this on the shop. its not uncommon for a bow to come out of time, especially after a long season. i check my timing monthly, and before any major events/trips/hunts.


Makes sense, however it was like this straight after tuning. not a big deal. I will make a draw board. If the cams are not timed, would I need a bow press to twist the strings? Thank you for the reply!



Shooter Mike said:


> Take one full turn out of your bottom limbs. I'm assuming you have a V3 27? These bows like stiffer limbs on the top.


Copy that. This is a v3 31.


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## Mighty Mouse (Jul 16, 2019)

finndawg said:


> If the cams are not timed, would I need a bow press to twist the strings?


Yes, you will need a press to take tension off the cables so you can add or subtract twists.


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## rober2wt (Feb 12, 2017)

finndawg said:


> Makes sense, however it was like this straight after tuning. not a big deal. I will make a draw board. If the cams are not timed, would I need a bow press to twist the strings? Thank you for the reply!


my apologies. my interpretation of your original post was that it was good before season, but is not anymore.

a couple other things to consider...

the rest is not in the full up position as pictured. the blade will rise once the down cable puts tension on the actuation cord. that said, it doesnt look like itll raise the shaft THAT high. and shaft may still sit nock high.
did you tell the shop you were shooting a micro diameter arrow or physically give them one of your arrows? if they set the nocking point with a 6mm shaft, it would make sense that it is nock high.


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## Wylicibin (May 15, 2021)

Op, are you referring to your arrow being level to the berger hole at let down or full draw? Your pic shows bow at rest, is this your concern?


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## ataylor270985 (9 mo ago)

You can check timing without a draw board , it’s handy obviously, but just draw is back slowly and watch the string stops to make sure they hit at the same time . With it being this far out you should be able to see it without a draw board . Does this bow have adjustable modules? You could have the modules in different numbered positions?


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## KDS (Oct 11, 2005)

I’m no bow tuner, but just by looking at your picture your nock point needs lowered and your arrow rest raised. I’d take it back to the shop and tell them it needs some work done on it.


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## Bearbrian (Sep 9, 2016)

I had the same situation with my v3 31 perfect holes but nock high. Not as extreme as yours but it was some. I moved the nocking point, it bothered me not having it lined with the Berger hole. Now it is level with perfect bullet holes.


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## Hoytarcher62 (Mar 9, 2012)

I would guess a timing issue as well. as you can tell you can still get bullet holes with a bow that is out of tune. the "out of tune" is corrected with other factors such as nock height and rest height and even to some extent arrow spine. you can shoot it the way it is but your not going to get the best performance out of your bow. also shooting longer ranges can be effected you may not have room in your sight window to reach 60 to 100 yds(if that's your goal) with an arrow that is already leaving the bow at a downward angle. Locate the draw stops on the cams, im not familiar with Mathews but it is a spot on the cam that comes back and touches the bus cables when you reach full draw . Then have a friend stand beside as you draw your bow, with a arrow to make sure you dont dry fire it. make sure the draw stops hit the bus cables at the exact same time. don't need a draw board or press to do that, if it is out of tune , then you need a press to make corrections. Good luck!! have Fun


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## cau (10 mo ago)

I second Shooter Mike's comment. Try backing out the bottom limb bolt one half to one full turn compared to the top limb bolt position. I have a V3 27 and it also likes the nocking point high relative to the rest. Backing out the lower limb bolt has allowed me to lower my nocking point a bit while still shooting bullet holes through paper.


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## Wildcardfig (Feb 13, 2021)

I am currently going through this exact same issue. v3 31. Ever since I had a new string put on I’m Nock low when arrow was square to the string, how everyone says to set it up. Checked timing on a draw board and it’s perfect. All other measurements are perfect as well. And at this point I’ve put several hundred arrows through it so the string should be well broken in.

I’ll try the taking a turn out of the bottom limb.

Could this possibly be an arrow spine issue? I know weak or stiff is usually left or right. But people also talk about how in compounds arrows flex up and down more than L/R? Feel dumb asking but I feel out of reasons for this.


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

rober2wt said:


> my apologies. my interpretation of your original post was that it was good before season, but is not anymore.
> 
> a couple other things to consider...
> 
> ...


Yes it does get A bit closer to level when drawn but it is still pointing downward quite a bit. When I took the bow in to get tuned, they used my arrows as well. More tinkering to do.



Wylicibin said:


> Op, are you referring to your arrow being level to the berger hole at let down or full draw? Your pic shows bow at rest, is this your concern?


both



ataylor270985 said:


> You can check timing without a draw board , it’s handy obviously, but just draw is back slowly and watch the string stops to make sure they hit at the same time . With it being this far out you should be able to see it without a draw board . Does this bow have adjustable modules? You could have the modules in different numbered positions?


As far as I know the modules are not adjustable, there is a “shim” or cap however that can be switched if there is cam lean, or if I was having issues with left/right tears.
I’m building a draw board in the morning and will report back and let you know. Thanks for the reply.



Bearbrian said:


> I had the same situation with my v3 31 perfect holes but nock high. Not as extreme as yours but it was some. I moved the nocking point, it bothered me not having it lined with the Berger hole. Now it is level with perfect bullet holes.


What was your solution to getting the arrow more level and still getting posts on paper?



Wildcardfig said:


> I am currently going through this exact same issue. v3 31. Ever since I had a new string put on I’m Nock low when arrow was square to the string, how everyone says to set it up. Checked timing on a draw board and it’s perfect. All other measurements are perfect as well. And at this point I’ve put several hundred arrows through it so the string should be well broken in.
> 
> I’ll try the taking a turn out of the bottom limb.
> 
> Could this possibly be an arrow spine issue? I know weak or stiff is usually left or right. But people also talk about how in compounds arrows flex up and down more than L/R? Feel dumb asking but I feel out of reasons for this.


I think I will give taking a turn out of the bottom bolt as well. I’m not sure about your # but as far as my proshop and victory’s website are concerned I’m shooting the correct spine arrow with my specs. If I find any other solutions I will let you know!


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

Hoytarcher62 said:


> I would guess a timing issue as well. as you can tell you can still get bullet holes with a bow that is out of tune. the "out of tune" is corrected with other factors such as nock height and rest height and even to some extent arrow spine. you can shoot it the way it is but your not going to get the best performance out of your bow. also shooting longer ranges can be effected you may not have room in your sight window to reach 60 to 100 yds(if that's your goal) with an arrow that is already leaving the bow at a downward angle. Locate the draw stops on the cams, im not familiar with Mathews but it is a spot on the cam that comes back and touches the bus cables when you reach full draw . Then have a friend stand beside as you draw your bow, with a arrow to make sure you dont dry fire it. make sure the draw stops hit the bus cables at the exact same time. don't need a draw board or press to do that, if it is out of tune , then you need a press to make corrections. Good luck!! have Fun


That is what I feared about this, I have notice I will get odd placement when shooting past 40yd but I just attributed this to my shot lol. Thank you for this info I will keep that in mind when I check the timing.



cau said:


> I second Shooter Mike's comment. Try backing out the bottom limb bolt one half to one full turn compared to the top limb bolt position. I have a V3 27 and it also likes the nocking point high relative to the rest. Backing out the lower limb bolt has allowed me to lower my nocking point a bit while still shooting bullet holes through paper.


I will give this a shot. Thanks!


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## Bearbrian (Sep 9, 2016)

Moving the nock point was my solution. Not much maybe a 1/16th. I shoot smaller diameter arrows as well. .204


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

Open the bottom limb 1/4 turn at the time, it shouldn’t take even full turn.
I’ve found timing on SW2 cam has very little effect in high/low tear. You’ll have a noticeable double wall before you see anything on paper.


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## poobear (May 14, 2008)

Bring the loop down. Center pull bows are designed to be pulled from middle. High nock settings affect rate of feed out. Backing bottom limb out will raise your nock setting. So first I would bring loop down to where top of arrow is at top of berger hole. Then recheck timing drawing from that point.


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

smau990 said:


> Open the bottom limb 1/4 turn at the time, it shouldn’t take even full turn.
> I’ve found timing on SW2 cam has very little effect in high/low tear. You’ll have a noticeable double wall before you see anything on paper.


I will keep that in mind going forward. My plan is to lower the nocking point while going a quarter turn out at a time and checking how it looks on paper. Thanks for the heads up.



poobear said:


> Bring the loop down. Center pull bows are designed to be pulled from middle. High nock settings affect rate of feed out. Backing bottom limb out will raise your nock setting. So first I would bring loop down to where top of arrow is at top of berger hole. Then recheck timing drawing from that point.


Ok. I will try this out if quartering back is not helping, thank you for the reply!


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

Update*

So I went ahead and built a drawboard this morning (been wanting to do this for a while) and I checked my timing. It was deadnuts top and bottom on the draw. Ok.
Pic of the new drawboard:









I decided I would lower my nocking point, and bring up my rest a bit so the arrow is a bit more level. As you can see it’s still pointing down.










With this, I shot and now I had a lower right tear. I backed out a quarter on the bottom limb bolt, still lower right, another quarter, still low but less right. I then did 3/4 turn out and it was a straight lower tear. It seems as though turning out the lower limb bolt only changed my right tear (I realize I could just combat this right tear with moving my rest but wanted to see first what would happen backing out the limb bolt) but my lower tear never changed.

I checked my timing again with it being 3/4 turn out on the lower, it therefor reached after the top by a very small margin.

I’m going to continue to tinker but this lower tear does not seem to want to go away when the arrow is level. It’s a bit confusing why this is happening but I’m having fun anyways lol.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

finndawg said:


> Update*
> 
> I checked my timing again with it being 3/4 turn out on the lower, it therefor reached after the top by a very small margin.
> 
> I’m going to continue to tinker but this lower tear does not seem to want to go away when the arrow is level. It’s a bit confusing why this is happening but I’m having fun anyways lol.


Confirm that the TOP cam module setting 
matches
the BOTTOm cam module setting.

If top cam is set for a particular draw length,
and
if bottom cam is set to a different draw length,
you will get a vertical paper tear...and the ONLY fix is to have the d-loop SKY HIGH or WAY WAY down low.


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## Mighty Mouse (Jul 16, 2019)

@nuts&bolts makes a good point. Make sure you have a matched set of mods installed. The label should be exactly the same on both mods except for the very last letter (A on bottom mod, B on top mod).


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## finndawg (11 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Confirm that the TOP cam module setting
> matches
> the BOTTOm cam module setting.
> 
> ...





Mighty Mouse said:


> @nuts&bolts makes a good point. Make sure you have a matched set of mods installed. The label should be exactly the same on both mods except for the very last letter (A on bottom mod, B on top mod).
> View attachment 7627467


I confirmed that the labels match as you described. Looks like I’m going to have to take it in to a shop to gets some twists put in.


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## rslscobra (Jan 23, 2006)

Make sure top and bottom DL mods are the same. But, it appears the rest cord is to tight. Timing on rest not properly setup. This will affect cam timing and rest operation.


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## 8025952 (Sep 7, 2020)

If you paper tune you, do it yourself. You set up a bow to your form and fallow through. Just for the future.


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## Jdoud033 (Sep 17, 2017)

Are you getting nock pinch?
Rest cord too tight?


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## Chilson07 (Oct 25, 2019)

Idk if this will be your issue but if you can’t figure it out worth a shot. My buddy had a bow same problem and we couldn’t figure it out tried everything. I ended up trying a new rest and it fixed the problem. After I checked his rest which was a QAD and it was gumming up a little on release. Not a ton and not every time but it was enough to mess it up. So if you run out of options and have another rest give that a try.


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## Taffyjay (Nov 17, 2021)

KDS said:


> I’m no bow tuner, but just by looking at your picture your nock point needs lowered and your arrow rest raised. I’d take it back to the shop and tell them it needs some work done on it.


Uh


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

finndawg said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Fairly new to archery, trying to understand my gear better and need some advice.
> 
> ...


Cam timing is WAY WAY WAY off.










Rotated your photo so the riser is VERTICAL.
RED lines are vertical and horizontal reference lines.

YELLOW line is your bowstring.
BOWSTRING is nowhere near vertical, when riser is vertical.

So, get the cam "TIMING" fixed. Then, you will get your bullet hole thru a paper tuner,
when the cam timing is FIXED,
and you will get a bullet hole, with a LEVEL arrow nock, instead of a SKY HIGH nock.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

With riser vertical, the bowstring should be DEAD vertical.
In your photo, the riser is vertical, but your bowstring is not vertical. Riser is on the left,
and the string is rotated clockwise, bottom of bowstring is off to the left,
and top of bowstring is off to the right.

Your bottom cam is hitting full draw FIRST, and the top cam is hitting WAY late. So, bottom limb is working over-time, and you were getting a NOCK low paper tear, cuz your cams are sooo much OUT of TIME.

To compensate for the NOCK low paper tear,
and since you probably do not have a bow press,
you moved the nock point higher and higher, which OVER-loads the top limb
and you killed the LOW nock tear by moving the d-loop SKY HIGH.

Take your bow to a qualified Pro Shop,
have them press your bow
and FIX the cam timing, so you get a bullet hole, when YOU shoot Your bow,
in YOUR hands, with the d-loop set ALL the way down, until the arrow is horizontal,
when the riser is vertical.


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## 19archer54 (Dec 30, 2021)

finndawg said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Fairly new to archery, trying to understand my gear better and need some advice.
> 
> ...


Typically shows too much arrow spine or top cam ahead of bottom.


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## paulfreeman241 (8 mo ago)

First thing make sure your nocking point is centered measure from each axle to center or use trusty archery t square


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## Bowbender83 (Jun 16, 2020)

Too me it looks as if your rip cord isn't in the upright position all the way from looking at pics. Could be wrong though. difficult to tell


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## Sean Evans (Jun 21, 2010)

If you added point weight and didn't go to a heavier spine, then you are getting a weak spine tear. Your arrow should not be that high. Weak spine will give you a high tear, stiff spine will give you a low tear. Hard to tell from the photo which way it is tearing. I also see your D Loop knots are touching your nock at rest. When you are at full draw, you could be getting nock pinch as well. Nock pinch will give all kinds of crazy tears.


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