# Stabilization with V-Bars and where mounted.



## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

"I have very limited experience with setting up V-bars. "

"Advanced Competition Archery "


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

basically, you answered your own question, when you said you get that occasional low arrow from dropping your bow arm.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

*v-bar mount*

Let start this way:
- 70% letoff (so called 70% module, below 20 lbs holding weight) you need a lot of weight on the bow to cut the wobbling,
- 60% letoff (above 20 lbs holding weight) you can cut the bow total weight almost by half for the same effect.
What I usually do tweaking/twisting cables/string to bring up the 70% to about 22-23 lbs because the 26 lbs is a bit harsh for my back shooting 144 FITA, but again with higher holding weight I can hold more steadier.
V bar mount, if it is too low (the v-bar only and we didn't got to sidebars yet) adds weight to front and will nose dive,
Doinker was experimenting with these v-bar drop's, I got a 2" model, but more drop lengths shall be available







Any side bar pointing down, adds weight to the front and will also cause nose dive.....
I have measure it this way, hang the bow at the grip and put an oz scale below the front tip, you would be amazed how much of a out-balance the pointing down can make....


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

dua lam pa said:


> "I have very limited experience with setting up V-bars. "
> 
> "Advanced Competition Archery "


Seriously...Mr. 10 posts that are probably worthless. I usually shoot only a single side rod but am shooting V's for outdoors for the first time. Archers helping archers right. Thanks bigHUN. I'll put a pic of the bow up later and experiment, I had a ***** of a time keeping the v-bar mount from not rotating on the riser though.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHun, the E35 having a dual draw stops, hard wall. Bow companies that have super hard walls hype them, but hard walls effect letoff. I mean, there is no gage to check what the shooter is holding or to gage how hard he or she is pulling. A softer wall, like Hoyt cams, there's a "give" to sort of stay within the realm of the letoff.
Can you elaborate?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

ArcherXXX300 said:


> Seriously...Mr. 10 posts that are probably worthless. I usually shoot only a single side rod but am shooting V's for outdoors for the first time. Archers helping archers right. Thanks bigHUN. I'll put a pic of the bow up later and experiment, I had a ***** of a time keeping the v-bar mount from not rotating on the riser though.


don't be so thinskinned...Dua is correct, this is not a topic for intermediate/advanced competition archery- it applies to general archery.

Specifically on your issues- you're already answering your own questions within the paragraph. There is no right or wrong, just testing and finding what works for you.


Hun, you may want to make a comment that your bow is NOT supposed to be balance at brace. Your balance rig will give the newer shooters the mistaken idea that a bow should balance without being drawn.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

personally I have found that vbars on a compound offer little to no actual value other than a perceived coolness factor. On a recurve it helps with front roll. Top compound shooters don't typically use them, they usually have a single side rod to help in leveling the bow. Vbars on a compound are a fairly recent phenomenon, they do look cool and as a social statement they may help you in feeling you are a top shooter especially to all the newbies that are watching you.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> bigHun, the E35 having a dual draw stops, hard wall. Bow companies that have super hard walls hype them, but hard walls effect letoff. I mean, there is no gage to check what the shooter is holding or to gage how hard he or she is pulling. A softer wall, like Hoyt cams, there's a "give" to sort of stay within the realm of the letoff.
> Can you elaborate?


Sonny, regardless of the bow brand-company YOU have your own DL and YOU tune the bow DL to your DL.....YOU don't pull hard into a hard stop but just barely touching only to feel it is there 
there is no hard wall or soft wall when the BOTH DL's are set properly....I have a relatively soft wall on my DST38 something similar to what you have mentioned the Hoyt bow, and I can feel a single millimeter (0.040") difference if I pull it hard or short. This shall be called something like consistency? 
Now imagine we are in the Field course with aggressive up or downhill shots.....we don't have a "form" anymore neither that famous anchor like on the flat floor....still we have to draw the bow the same amount of DL or we have a disaster score, right?
bottom line is that the two DL's shall be set precisely and the btw is...the d-loop length can be a great help.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

target1 said:


> personally I have found that vbars on a compound offer little to no actual value other than a perceived coolness factor. ....


A single sidebar may work well with 20 yard indoors or a bit longer, but.....
Have you tried shooting couple full FITA tournaments with a single bar? I don't think the scores will be on the level as you would use both sidebars 
Try it first and we talk further, OK?


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

*v-bar mounts*

I have tried several locations to mount the v-bar, 
right below the grip work great but the wind can eventually can't the bow, 
drop about 2" below, works great but limited to brand hardware, 
right down to limb pockets, this pulled the riser so hard into cant and made the entire feel way too much front heavy,
and somehow I feel it most comfortable about here, but again we need some hole at that location,









so got myself one of the easiest bow for any kind of tuning, and found myself a spot for v-bar









currently I don't have it there anymore, but below that red string stop, that is about half way down in between the grip and the limb pocket


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

bigHUN said:


> A single sidebar may work well with 20 yard indoors or a bit longer, but.....
> Have you tried shooting couple full FITA tournaments with a single bar? I don't think the scores will be on the level as you would use both sidebars
> Try it first and we talk further, OK?


probably less than 1% of all archers have ever shot a full FITA. My remarks were directed to the larger group of spot shooters. Of course the OP did not state what he shoots.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> ///////////
> I can feel a single millimeter (0.040") difference if I pull it hard or short. This shall be called something like consistency?


I don't know about .040", but I can feel 1/8" real easy. Yes, consistency and only shooting and practicing can you find it.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> ...There is no right or wrong, just testing and finding what works for you....
> Hun, you may want to make a comment that your bow is NOT supposed to be balance at brace.....a bow should balance without being drawn.


I had a hootershooter for some two years just for a reason to learn what makes a good consistency. I use the machine to group tune my CX nano's for long range shooting, spent many many hours tweaking spines, matching them together with the bow, and I learned ....to grab the bow from that machine and start scoring long ranges 50-70-90 meters....what this means, to hold the grip so much neutral that there is no difference do I am hanging it at brace or hanging it between/inside my palm and release....have you ever tried to hold the drawn bow (open your fingers fully around the grip) and watch where the bubble goes? Don't correct with torquing but just let the bubble sit in the middle....now if you would execute the shot what would happen? Just watch the difference in the POI if you have a single bar or the double bar....5 minutes test...


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

bigHUN said:


> A single sidebar may work well with 20 yard indoors or a bit longer, but.....
> Have you tried shooting couple full FITA tournaments with a single bar? I don't think the scores will be on the level as you would use both sidebars
> Try it first and we talk further, OK?


I really don't see the difference between shooting a single side bar for full fitas, of which I have shot many, or setting up for an indoor Vegas round. You're still shooting at a dot at a set distance over a period of several ends. Granted, one is measured by 144 arrows and the other only 60, but the overall balance of the bow, once set for the distances to be shot, really should not vary that much. I may be missing something, IDK....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

montigre said:


> ....I really don't see the difference between shooting a single side bar for full fitas....


I can agree with you that a tuned stabilizer setup is a very personal preference, and just getting there is definitely worth spending hours and hours playing. Simple duplicating what is popular or the big guys doing will most likely not work well for everybody. We never know until try everything...


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm an indoor paper puncher and have shot a single side rod and setup and tuned several bows. I'm not a complete noob and don't believe that this topic should be in "General Archery" since general archers don't shoot V-bars as it is a competitive archery tool. I'll say I moved the bar up to the lower mounting hole on the back of the riser and the bow felt much lighter even with 40oz of total weight on the stabs and is shooting pretty freaking good. I'm just now stepping into shooting some 3d for a break from indoors. Indoors is where I prefer to shoot, but I'm taking a break from indoors and enjoying time and learning some new crap by shooting 3d outside. Also sorry, I'm an irritable ******* all the time.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

what about somebody to chime in who tried both - the single and double bars and tell he's experience, lets hear the pro's and con's


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

With a quick disconnect with a 10 degree down for the front stabilizer will that make the bow more front heavy then a level front stabilizer


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> what about somebody to chime in who tried both - the single and double bars and tell he's experience, lets hear the pro's and con's


Years back; Never used a back bar and shot some pretty good scores, indoor, 3D, Outdoor, and Field. Come forward a few years and I tried a monster heavy Fred Bear V bar (micro adjustment) with two heavily weighted back bars (all Fred Bear set up). Never saw or felt a difference other than my bow heavier. Went without a back bar until 2012 and shot as good as I ever did. Got a steal of a deal on the Bernie's drop V bracket set up. Took all the weight out of the right ball and put all I could in the left ball. Felt okay and just shot it - looked good is about all I can say. Went with Doinker V bar and single Stinger 10" back bar - one noted in Reverend's Thread. Okay, I'm shooting it and one thing now that stands out is the bubble is pretty much centered on it's own. Using it today in 30 target 3D I noticed if the bubble was centered on it's "own" my shot was right there. Having some issues right now (got the glitches), but bubble centered on it's own I called a couple of 12s today and called "threading the needle" a couple of times. Weather clamming at the end I had trouble gripping and had to re-set a half dozen times as the bubble was far left. If I forced the bubble to center, and I did a couple of times, it was a toss up.
So weighting a bow is a individual thing and no doubt different bow to bow. For the most part all of my target bows have been over 38" ata, 4 being 40" plus. My MarXman is my shortest at 37 1/2" ata. My next will be 40" plus. And for the most part I've used the 30" Cartel (stiff) with 1" quick disconnect and have varied the end weight from 1 ounce to as much as 4 ounces...

There is learning to shoot your bow. There is weighting your bow to make up for what you can't control or won't learn to control (you or the bow). Pages and pages of Pro shooters and virtually none of them using the same set up. Go to a shooting event and tons of people with long stabilizers and back bars all over the place and most have them only because they look neat....give that Pro look...And some "hill billy" walks into the State Championship with a new just set up bow, arrows stuck down his engineer boots and shoots a 300 60X. Yeah, really happened. I was there.


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## Tiroarco (Nov 6, 2012)

bigHUN said:


> what about somebody to chime in who tried both - the single and double bars and tell he's experience, lets hear the pro's and con's


I was shooting a single bar until a couple of weeks ago.......I switched because I got tired of a guy always going on about vbar's (BigHun). Of course I say it tongue and cheek (and he knows that). Here are the benefits I have discovered:
1. I can now distribute the weight over two back bars thus having a shorter stack. I shoot with a total of 36 ounces which made the single rear bar with 24 ounces quite long. 
2. I can now fine tune the cant of the bow a little better without having to add or take away weight (if I so choose). The reason being is that I can use the principal discussed below (leverage) to fine tune. swing out the right side bar to gain more leverage without adding weight. Just by utilizing the leverage I can change the cant. With single bars you are limited to the left bar thus only allowing to adjust right cant. With vbar's obviously you have more versatility. 
3. I personally find the bow more balanced with the vbar's. Maybe it's because I had 24 oz hanging off the left side (I'm right handed shooter). I think I had to induce some torque to offset the 24 oz on the left side. 

I think if you are shooting larger mass weight (especially if concentrated on the stabilizer) then it's definitely advantageous. 

Here is the one con I have found.......when shooting long distances (and using a spotting scope on a tripod) it's a bit of a pain in azz because it's obviously more cumbersome. It's a small price to pay for better scores though. 



redman said:


> With a quick disconnect with a 10 degree down for the front stabilizer will that make the bow more front heavy then a level front stabilizer


With a 10 degree drop it will feel lighter on the front end. When trying to figure out the effects of something......I always think of the extreme.....what I mean by that is "how would it feel if it hung straight down from the riser". The answer is lighter because there is no leverage for the weights to act on......the weight on the end of the stabilizer is the same but the effects of leverage are now negated.
Obviously the bar isn't hanging straight down but as you can appreciate there is less leverage than if it was straight out. 
The other benefit to the angled QD is that it lowers the centre of gravity making it harder to induce torque (less cant). Again...thinking in terms of extremes, if I hung 20 lb from the bottom of my riser it would make it very hard to can't the bow either to the left or the right. That's because we have lowered the centre of gravity to the lower extremity of the bow). 
Admittedly it's not for anyone but I tried it and haven't looked back. You have to get used to looking at your stabilizer and thinking that your stabilizer needs a shot of Viagra


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

redman said:


> With a quick disconnect with a 10 degree down for the front stabilizer will that make the bow more front heavy then a level front stabilizer


yes, you will feel it more front heavy.....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

What I like with the two sided v-bar I forgot to mentioned before, is that I can easily tune the pin pattern and also how the fliers behaving relative to the group. 
Currently I have a doinker platinum v-bar but it was limiting my needs and I have file down the plastic teethes (and put a nord lock washer in between joints) so I can move the horizontal hinge angles "on the fly" in very small amounts. The DCA I have tried but I didn't like the idea I have to induce soo big torque to tighten the connections, have also tried several other brands as well got same concerns. My people at my club some having the latest Shrewd rigging looks promising but is a large chunk of metal attached to the riser I don't really sympathies with that idea....
I am always open to new tricks but my long range shooting I have figured definitely scores better with two sidebars.....


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

The Shrewd mounts are actually pretty light, and have no locking teeth, they just simply are crimped together under pressure. One thing is if it seizes up you can put heat on it to unseized it unlike doinker and others where the teethed washers melt. I liked running my V-bar at the bottom of the bow but it made it feel ridiculously heavy (granted I run a lot of weight), but by moving it up 1 hole where it is on back of riser about 1" below the front stabilizer mount it felt 10X lighter. Setup worked decent for me for Regions archery this weekend, but not as well as I wanted, really not happy about day 2 washing out...I feel could've caught them.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> I don't know about .040", but I can feel 1/8" real easy. Yes, consistency and only shooting and practicing can you find it.


 absolutely, when your release execution is well ingrained, you will notice a difference in how easily the shot goes with that much difference.

when I was shooting regularly and competitively, several years ago, I could tell the difference from a twist or two of the bow string, easily.


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## carlielos (May 12, 2007)

bigHUN said:


> yes, you will feel it more front heavy.....


 This is totally backwards, as another poster said above, leverage is reduced, by dropping the front bar down or dropping the rear down in effect you are reducing the amount of leverage therefore the feeling will be lighter not heavier! Come on people this is just basic physics!


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## carlielos (May 12, 2007)

ron w said:


> absolutely, when your release execution is well ingrained, you will notice a difference in how easily the shot goes with that much difference.
> 
> when I was shooting regularly and competitively, several years ago, I could tell the difference from a twist or two of the bow string, easily.


 I agree with this but unless you have virtually no twist in your strings then one turn/twist could be as much as 1/8" change n draw length and that's a lot!


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

*Sidebar angle effects front heavy - demonstration*

just FYI I put up a quick demonstration,
my bow total weight is







you can see I have placed a digital scale below the front bar and I will be changing the side bar (my side) angle only ... FYI my bubble maintains the center plumb....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

forgot to add a picture in the previous post, so hanging the bow and scale below the front rod looks like this







both sidebars angled down more than doubles the front pressure 







all these changes with angles I didn't touch the plumb, the bubble stays centered all times (v-bar with two side bars)


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Excellent point. I know for a fact when you swing your back bars down toward the floor it makes the bow feel as though you're just gaining mass weight because the bars are losing leverage. I run a 10-15* front disconnect on my bows to take the waggle out when I hit anchor, but it does seem that going from a 10* to a 15* QD up front that the front bar acts and feels as if it is shorter....


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## Tiroarco (Nov 6, 2012)

carlielos said:


> This is totally backwards, as another poster said above, leverage is reduced, by dropping the front bar down or dropping the rear down in effect you are reducing the amount of leverage therefore the feeling will be lighter not heavier! Come on people this is just basic physics!


I agree with this^^^^^^ I think there is some miscommunication. Explained below....



bigHUN said:


> forgot to add a picture in the previous post, so hanging the bow and scale below the front rod looks like this
> View attachment 1969701
> 
> both sidebars angled down more than doubles the front pressure
> ...


It sounds to me (and based on the pictures) that you were changing the angle of the back bars (vbar's) and this will in fact give you a more weight forward but the original question was asking about a 10 degree front quick disconnect. Effectively reversing the experiment you did which supports your findings........ but he is asking about changing the angle on the front stabilizer. 
By dropping the front bar lower to the ground you would reduce the weight forward effect.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

sorry, I had way too big of inertia, back to OP,



mgnasi said:


> ...the original question was asking about a 10 degree front quick disconnect. ...


Lowering the center of gravity will help the plumb great time, and
Yes, any front angled disconnects will make a nose heavy, and you will also feel that lost some amount from the front length as well....
easy to proof with testing, take at least 50 meter distance, on 60 and 70 will be clearly visible....for easier aim place a horizontal tape or print a high contrast B&W half by half paper page....
shoot a group of a dozen arrows with straight disconnect and a group of a dozen with angled disconnects, same stabilizer only swap the disconnect.... the second set will drop the group lower...


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## carlielos (May 12, 2007)

I have my rig weighted about where I want it, so when I'm playing with balance, really about all I'm doing is adjusting the angle of the rear bar, by moving it up or down 2 or 3 inches I can really change the effect of leverage, I can add more front heavy I can reduce the front heavy, none of this changes the Bow's mass weight, only how it balances. Do I agree that a Down angled front bar will cause lower groups? No I do not, It's the balance of the bow that changes the group not the down angle!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*Question?*

Could you show some additional pictures of this setup? Also... I'm liking this idea but confused on the point of balance. Should not the point of balance be the inside of the grip?


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Could you show some additional pictures of this setup? Also... I'm liking this idea but confused on the point of balance. Should not the point of balance be the inside of the grip?


My focus was on the geometry how to hang the entire "system" so the red string not to touch the riser at any point, if I would "strap" it behind the grip the riser is wider and would rub the red string. I want it free floating at a/any point and only the center of gravity to keep it vertical....
I have seen it before and I would buy for myself but the price tag is steep for this tool, I may build it DIY one day:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/dead-center-pro-bow-balancer.html


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

carlielos said:


> ...Do I agree that a Down angled front bar will cause lower groups? No I do not, It's the balance of the bow that changes the group not the down angle!


I sad run a test only and compare the POI between the two disconnects....You chose any to go with (angled or straight) of course you will balance the system to that .... my intention was only to demonstrait the angled disconnect will make the bow front heavier compared to straight disconnect, and you can feel it only by quick swapping it....


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

EPLC said:


> Could you show some additional pictures of this setup? Also... I'm liking this idea but confused on the point of balance. Should not the point of balance be the inside of the grip?


you want the bow to balance at draw, not at rest. This is why there is quite a bit of trial and error til the float is right.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

What is the most important at the end of the game? The consistent POI....
We do play, we do spend time and effort, we do investigate anything new what my raise our scores but we don't know what that could be and we consistently looking for some new tricks.....copying somebodies setup can work but most of the time you will never know is that a best what you can do....all depend how far you want to reach....


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