# Most broken rule of field archery?



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

My guess would be the speed rule.

My guess for second would be shooting the wrong target.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Rules aren't ignored because they are asinine honestly....some may confuse a few people but they make sense for the most part. play the game first :wink:

The rule that is most broken is which target to shoot or shooting from the correct side....and you will get dinged for it on your score card. 

There are no equipment rules that come into effect....new vs old really. The only thing that could even fall in that category is the speed limit and it's 300 fps.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Oh boy - I feel the boat rocking already. 

But here goes.

I'll use a Hoyt setup just as an example, but I'm sure this can be applied to practically every compound bow maker.

I'm by NO MEANS an expert on Hoyt cams, but it is my understanding that bow X with Y limbs and Spiral cams will produce a higher FPS than the same set up using Cam 1/2.

It would stand to reason then that the energy being provided to the arrow is "increased" due to the cam. 

If that is the case then the following is being violated as cams are NOT considered part of the string.

2. Compound bows may be used, provided:
2.1 Basic design includes a handle riser (grip) and flexible limbs.
2.2 *Total arrow propelling energy is developed from a flexing of the materials employed in limb construction.*
2.3 Weight reduction factor is of no consequence.
2.4 *Bows which develop any portion of arrow propelling energy from sources “other than the limbs” shall not be allowed*. This is not to be construed to mean that compound bows which employ other sources of arrow propelling energy, not specifically listed in this paragraph, will be allowed.
2.5 The cables of the compound bow shall be considered as part of the string and all applicable string rules except color requirements shall apply


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

While the boat is still rocking - ever seen anyone shooting BHFS with both a peep sight and a kisser button or maybe even a little serving tied to their string where it should touch their nose? :nono:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Hang on - the ride is getting bumpy

Appears to me that having either your front or back foot *on* the distance marker is a violation.

*The archer must straddle an imaginary shooting line, which is marked by the distance stake and parallel to the target face, while shooting the required arrows.*


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Does a National Champ count?

I'm not sure that what you're thinking is an enforced rule anymore or not though.



pragmatic_lee said:


> While the boat is still rocking - ever seen anyone shooting BHFS with both a peep sight and a kisser button or maybe even a little serving tied to their string where it should touch their nose? :nono:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> While the boat is still rocking - ever seen anyone shooting BHFS with both a peep sight and a kisser button or maybe even a little serving tied to their string where it should touch their nose? :nono:


Sometimes my BHFS rig had serving on the cables that the ends would miraculously line up at full draw. 


I think you're wrong on post#4. The spirals impart more energy into the limbs on the draw because we put more effort into drawing them, so we get more energy out of the limbs for propulsion than the standard C.5s.

One rule I always questioned was the RIC that a circle aperature isn't BHFS legal. The rules say you can have one housing and no more than 5 aiming points. Last I checked with the math teacher, 0 is less than 5.  I saw one guy literally glue a hair across the aperature to be legal.


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

That's kind of silly Lee.....according to that any bow with Cams or wheels of any kind would be in violation of the rule.....somehow I think there is more to this then you've posted that clarifies things more....



pragmatic_lee said:


> Oh boy - I feel the boat rocking already.
> 
> But here goes.
> 
> ...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Ron Meadows said:


> Does a National Champ count?
> 
> I'm not sure that what you're thinking is an enforced rule anymore or not though.


Page 31
F: Freestyle Bowhunter
5. One anchor point only is permitted.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Ron Meadows said:


> That's kind of silly Lee.....according to that any bow with Cams or wheels of any kind would be in violation of the rule.....somehow I think there is more to this then you've posted that clarifies things more....


I copied/pasted everything from:
Page 28
A. General
# 2.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> I think you're wrong on post#4. The spirals impart more energy into the limbs on the draw because we put more effort into drawing them, so we get more energy out of the limbs for propulsion than the standard C.5s.


My point in pointing this "rule" out is that "I believe" there are quite a few more things that affect the "arrow propelling energy" than just those "employed in the limb construction". 

And if that is the case then we're all in violation of:
2.2 Total arrow propelling energy is developed from a flexing of the materials employed in limb construction.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> My point in pointing this "rule" out is that "I believe" there are quite a few more things that affect the "arrow propelling energy" than just those "employed in the limb construction".
> 
> And if that is the case then we're all in violation of:
> 2.2 Total arrow propelling energy is developed from a flexing of the materials employed in limb construction.


I'm not in violation because all of the energy I impart to my spiral-cammed bow is stored in the limbs. 

You're way overthinking it.:darkbeer:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Ponder this "rule". I've read it a dozen times and the only conclusion I can come to is that any bow that has any let off is in violation. Doesn't the plain and simple concept of a "cam" violate this?

My draw weight is 50 lbs with 65% let off cams/mods - thus "at full draw" I am holding 17.5 lbs. So my draw weight has been relieved at full draw. What am I missing folks????

4. Any device that would allow the mass weight, or the draw weight of the bow to be relieved from either or both arms, at full draw, shall be declared illegal.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

*rules*

1. Still see some guys who think they can't score without touching the nocks or arrows.

2. It may not be asinine, but it is impracticable to allow BHFS to use a bubble and then tell them not to use it as a site reference, but I really don't have a dog in that race.

Every group I have ever shot in (always FS, am&pro), if you shoot the wrong target or otherwise break the shooting rules, you lose the points as stipulated. Anything less is not ethical and unfair for everyone else competing.


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## willieM (Nov 18, 2007)

What is being referred to is using a device such as a draw loc to hold the bow at full draw while aiming, not the compounding system that reduces the holding weight.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Ponder this "rule". I've read it a dozen times and the only conclusion I can come to is that any bow that has any let off is in violation. Doesn't the plain and simple concept of a "cam" violate this?
> 
> My draw weight is 50 lbs with 65% let off cams/mods - thus "at full draw" I am holding 17.5 lbs. So my draw weight has been relieved at full draw. *What am I missing folks????*
> 
> 4. Any device that would allow the mass weight, or the draw weight of the bow to be relieved from either or both arms, at full draw, shall be declared illegal.


Think of "relieve" in the baseball sense. Once a pitcher has been relieved he has NO other burden during that game. You still have a burden of 17.5 pounds and the mass weight to contend with. Reduced, but not completely relieved - it really is a poor choice of words. Better would have been to say that draw-weight reduction cannot exceed 99% or something along that line.

The rule is relevent to draw locks and "bi-pod" type equipment.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

TNMAN said:


> ...Every group I have ever shot in (always FS, am&pro), if you shoot the wrong target or otherwise break the shooting rules, you lose the points as stipulated. Anything less is not ethical and unfair for everyone else competing.


On occasion I give a pass to a field newcomer. I also let them know that its their last gimme.


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

*well, since we're splitting atoms in this post...*



Bobmuley said:


> Think of "relieve" in the baseball sense. *Once a pitcher has been relieved he has NO other burden during that game.* You still have a burden of 17.5 pounds and the mass weight to contend with. Reduced, but not completely relieved - it really is a poor choice of words. Better would have been to say that draw-weight reduction cannot exceed 99% or something along that line.
> 
> The rule is relevent to draw locks and "bi-pod" type equipment.


The pitcher doesn't have any more burden if he leaves the game without leaving any baserunners on at the time of his "relieving." If there are baserunners on base all those runners are still his "burden" until either they score or the new pitcher gets three outs. If a relief pitcher comes in with the bases loaded, and then gives up a grand slam, that new pitcher is only responsible for one run, the other three runs are tacked on to the earlier pitcher's ERA.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

And what's wrong with a Peep and a kisser button used in tandem?


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> My point in pointing this "rule" out is that "I believe" there are quite a few more things that affect the "arrow propelling energy" than just those "employed in the limb construction".
> 
> And if that is the case then we're all in violation of:
> 2.2 Total arrow propelling energy is developed from a flexing of the materials employed in limb construction.


Regardless of the cam configuration, none of the energy actually comes from the Cam...the cam and string harness is simply a mechanical device which allows you to flex the bow limbs more (therby storing a greater amount of energy) with less effort than if they were not there...The limb is still where that energy comes from...

update after thinking about this some more- go get yourself an I-beam or something else so stiff that you could call it "unflexible". Attach your cams and string harness to this I beam that does not flex...think that is going to shoot an arrow? No it won't, because the energy comes from the compression of the limbs, not from the cam itself...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Page 31
> F: Freestyle Bowhunter
> 5. One anchor point only is permitted.


That doesn't mean you can't have a peep and a kisser button as references to your single anchor point...what it does mean is that you can't "face walk" or change where you anchor up/down your face depending on the distance being shot...


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> There are no equipment rules that come into effect....new vs old really. The only thing that could even fall in that category is the speed limit and it's 300 fps.


Might not be a big issue in ASA land, but here in IBO country 300fps is slow so I'd guess this is probably the #1 rule broken at our local shoots. 

But these local shoots are just for fun so if ignoring this rule gets more guys out to try the game then I'm all for it. If they get serious enough about field they'll eventually set up a bow that's more field friendly anyhow.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Page 31
> F: Freestyle Bowhunter
> 5. One anchor point only is permitted.





mag41vance said:


> And what's wrong with a Peep and a kisser button used in tandem?


What's wrong with it? Have NO idea, but the rule as quoted above simply states: "One anchor point only is permitted."


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Cams aren't a "device"....they are part of the bow.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> And what's wrong with a Peep and a kisser button used in tandem?


Nothing at all, prag is simply confusing "anchor point" with reference points...


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Anyone else feel like Lee was just sitting back waiting for the day when this thread would appear? :chortle:


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

psargeant said:


> Nothing at all, prag is simply confusing "anchor point" with reference points...


I thought as much.

A maximum of (5) five fixed reference points: Points of attachment shall not be considered reference points. A line running vertically from its top attachment in the pin guard to its bottom attachment in the pin guard would be legal. _Sighting reference points, string peep (with or without a lens)and/or kisser button_ may not be moved during a round. Scopes, clickers and draw checks are not allowed. A round or oval housing around the points of reference is not considered a scope as long as no lens is used. No additional pin guard may be used. A sight pin consisting of a housing with a hole through it, that does not contain a fixed reference point within the hole, is not allowed.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Touching the arrows before scoring them. :angry:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

JawsDad said:


> Anyone else feel like Lee was just sitting back waiting for the day when this thread would appear? :chortle:


Preach on preacher.  Actually I'll jump on any opportunity to point out how asinine it is and ALWAYS will be for the "rules of the game" to be part of the constitution and by-laws of any organization. Besides, I'm bored today and thought I'd use my "device" to play with some folks. Oh wait, as much as I am on AT, maybe my computer isn't a device, maybe it's "part of me".


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

mag41vance said:


> Touching the arrows before scoring them. :angry:


At the Moo-Tel, touching the arrows on target #4 "at any time" can be an issue. 

But you're very correct - I'd have to say this is absolutely the most violated rule.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Heck you guys should try shootin an NAA field. Talk about rules.


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## slayer73 (Aug 19, 2008)

Is there a maximum number of pins that you can use in your sight ring in the rules? I couldn't find it.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

slayer73 said:


> Is there a maximum number of pins that you can use in your sight ring in the rules? I couldn't find it.


Max is 5 "fixed reference points" - does not have to be "pins"

Page 31
F. Freestyle Bowhunter:
1. A maximum of (5) five fixed reference points: Points of attachment shall not be considered reference points. A line running vertically from its top attachment in the pin guard to its bottom attachment in the pin guard would be legal. Sighting reference points, string peep (with or without a lens) and/or kisser button may not be moved during a round. Scopes,
clickers and draw checks are not allowed. A round or oval housing around the points of reference is not considered a scope as long as no lens is used. No additional pin guard may be used. A sight pin consisting of a housing with a hole through it, that does not contain a fixed reference point within the hole, is not allowed.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

slayer73 said:


> Is there a maximum number of pins that you can use in your sight ring in the rules? I couldn't find it.


This is that rule.. 

A maximum of (5) five fixed reference points: Points of attachment shall not be considered reference points. A line running vertically from its top attachment in the pin guard to its bottom attachment in the pin guard would be legal. Sighting reference points, string peep (with or without a lens)and/or kisser button may not be moved during a round. Scopes, clickers and draw checks are not allowed. A round or oval housing around the points of reference is not considered a scope as long as no lens is used. No additional pin guard may be used. A sight pin consisting of a housing with a hole through it, that does not contain a fixed reference point within the hole, is not allowed.


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## bowhunter_va_28 (Apr 28, 2003)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Hang on - the ride is getting bumpy
> 
> Appears to me that having either your front or back foot *on* the distance marker is a violation.
> 
> *The archer must straddle an imaginary shooting line, which is marked by the distance stake and parallel to the target face, while shooting the required arrows.*


How thick is the imaginary line? Does it run through the center, the front or the back of the distance stake?


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

bowhunter_va_28 said:


> How thick is the imaginary line? Does it run through the center, the front or the back of the distance stake?


Techically, you are sposed to have on in front and one in back, and I have been guilty of, on occastion, 'using the pin' to help on a really bad footing shooting position, so... I do however often see those who stand two feet behind the pin with the front foot touching. Don't think they've ever been 'called on it' though (but it wasn't Nats or anything like that.. lol)


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> While the boat is still rocking - ever seen anyone shooting BHFS with both a peep sight and a kisser button or maybe even a little serving tied to their string where it should touch their nose? :nono:


Actually you can have both a kisser and a peep in BHFS and BHFSL


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## slayer73 (Aug 19, 2008)

So since I have 6-pins I cant shoot bhfs? how do people do it without a slider?


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Eaily I would have to say that the 2 most violated rules are:
1. touching the arrows before they are scored.
2. BHFS shooters using their bubble as a 6th sight pin/mark. Most of the BHFS guys I know sight their bubble in for 80 yards, then adjust their other pins accordingly so that they have a reffrence for the 80 and a gap for the 70.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

slayer73 said:


> So since I have 6-pins I cant shoot bhfs? how do people do it without a slider?


They shoot 5 pins that are fixed. (after they are sighted in at the correct distances.) They then learn how to gap shoot. If you cannnot learn to gap shoot then you probably need a slider and go to FS division.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

slayer73 said:


> So since I have 6-pins I cant shoot bhfs? how do people do it without a slider?


The easiest way is "stacking"...pull back and aim with your 60 pin, look to see where your 40 yarder is and raise your 60 pin to where the 40 was (for the 80 yarder)....fire away! 

The most ambiguous way is to sight your bubble in for 80 yards...though you'll hear few fess up to it because that would be recognizing the bubble as a sixth aiming point. 

There's also just learning where to aim..like 6" over the three ring with your 60 yard pin etc. 

Its really not too difficult to get decent scores with 5 pins. Shooting 20s is a little tougher.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> The easiest way is "stacking"...pull back and aim with your 60 pin, look to see where your 40 yarder is and raise your 60 pin to where the 40 was (for the 80 yarder)....fire away!
> 
> The most ambiguous way is to sight your bubble in for 80 yards...though you'll hear few fess up to it because that would be recognizing the bubble as a sixth aiming point.
> 
> ...


Bob this sure became alot easier when the bows got faster:smile:


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

I know of a few BHFS archers who used the string opening above their peep for 80 yards. That definately violated the 'single anchor point' rule.

And *NO* I was not one of them.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

mdbowhunter said:


> I know of a few BHFS archers who used the string opening above their peep for 80 yards. That definately violated the 'single anchor point' rule.
> 
> And *NO* I was not one of them.


I tried that to see how it would work. Not for me. I have tried all the tricks and still have the best luck stacking like Bob says. It is harder to do if the target is in an open field with no ref. points above the target though. Using the bubble never worked for me well as I would get left/rights. You can score well and remain with in the rules if you put in hte time.
John


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

how about the numbering of your arrows for the animal round?


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

rock monkey said:


> how about the numbering of your arrows for the animal round?


Most I shoot with use numbered arrows... and does it not boil down to the spotting of the target after each arrow from an archer, moreso than the # on the shaft? :noidea: :lol:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

My 'vote' goes to wrong target shot.. there are many chances to screw this up.

If mis-setting your sight were a rule violation, I'd vote that.. it's my #1 offense..


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Has to be standing with one foot on each side of the shooting marker.... I have possibly broken that one 112 times in a round.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

slayer73 said:


> So since I have 6-pins I cant shoot bhfs? how do people do it without a slider?


You CANNOT touch or MOVE the FIXED pins in BHFS....so...ALL the BHFS shooters are NOT really using the "slider" if they have one.

FIXED pins mean just that, and it is clear that those pins cannot be moved at all after the scoring round begins...and that also includes the peep site, the kisser button, the "site housing", the bow poundage, or the "arrow weights".

Oh, yes, I"ve seen BHFS try to shoot different arrow weights for different yardages! The arrows "look the same"...but they aren't...their point weights differ. I've personally witnessed more than one person caught on this...and called on it, too. The persons in those incidences were DQ'd on the spot.

Now, "how" do they do it...You Set your FIXED PINS on a different "gapping', than the normal 20, 30, 40, 50, & 60, many mid-level or newbie BHFS'ers use. You take the time to tune your equipment and learn the gapping that gives you the most distances whereby a given pin is on the "dot" or part of the dot, or on the X-ring or part of the X-ring.

When I shot my best in BHFS, my pin settings weren't even close to the "standard" 20-30-40-50-& 60 so commonly used by others. I had set up my equipment and site pins to maximized the distances for each pin setting that gave me many distances with my intended pin...or another pin in the set "on or near the dot or X", or "color break". Then, that being done, I worked my tail off learning that "system" that WORKED for that particular setup.

Of course, nowadaze, since the watering down of the BHFS division by allowing so much more to "go on"...primarily not having to use a minimum point weight of 125 grains....it is a heckuva lot easier to use one pin for multiple distances...than it was when you had NO BUBBLE, NO PIN GUARD, 5 STRAIGHT fixed pins, and the peep had to be completely tied in with no gaps above and below it to "look thru". Shooting 540+ under those circumstances, while it was commonly done....took a lot more work that it does with today's rules in the BHFS division.

BHFS is still an extremely challenging division to shoot in, and the top echelon boys, KNOW THEIR EQUIPMENT and work hard on their pin gaps/systems, along with getting the maximum efficiency out of a particular bow/arrow combination. There is an "art" to BHFS!

field14 (Tom D)


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

NFAA General Rules and Equipment Styles
A.
3. The maximum peak draw weight allowed in NFAA competition shall be 80 pounds, with a maximum speed of 280 FPS with a variance of 3%.


or 288 FPS.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> The easiest way is "stacking"...pull back and aim with your 60 pin, look to see where your 40 yarder is and raise your 60 pin to where the 40 was (for the 80 yarder)....fire away!
> 
> The most ambiguous way is to sight your bubble in for 80 yards...though you'll hear few fess up to it because that would be recognizing the bubble as a sixth aiming point.
> 
> ...


On my Mathews Conquest I could look thru the string at the top of the peep, put my 65 yard pin on the 80 and dot it.....wont work on my contender.




Ooops did I just type that?


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> 3. The maximum peak draw weight allowed in NFAA competition shall be 80 pounds, with a maximum speed of 280 FPS with a variance of 3%.
> or 288 FPS.


This is wrong, the speed limit now is 300 +/- 3%


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

subconsciously said:


> NFAA General Rules and Equipment Styles
> A.
> 3. The maximum peak draw weight allowed in NFAA competition shall be 80 pounds, with a maximum speed of 280 FPS with a variance of 3%.
> 
> ...


Max speed was changed to 300 fps last year.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

subconsciously said:


> On my Mathews Conquest I could look thru the string at the top of the peep, put my 65 yard pin on the 80 and dot it.....wont work on my contender.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now you know WHY the "old rule" (back quite some time ago) used to be that the peep site had to be COMPLETELY tied in without any gap opening above or below the peep. In addition, of course, this also stopped people from moving their peep up or down slightly between targets....oh, yes, saw that being done too after the rule changed to allow the opening above and below the peep. I wouldn't be surprised in that this goes on quite a bit, and it would be hard to catch a person moving that peep, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Spotshooter2 said:


> This is wrong, the speed limit now is 300 +/- 3%


Thats great!! I changed to Goldtip 22 ultra lites and Im now at or around 293+-..

Good news for me.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

field14 said:


> Now you know WHY the "old rule" (back quite some time ago) used to be that the peep site had to be COMPLETELY tied in without any gap opening above or below the peep. In addition, of course, this also stopped people from moving their peep up or down slightly between targets....oh, yes, saw that being done too after the rule changed to allow the opening above and below the peep. I wouldn't be surprised in that this goes on quite a bit, and it would be hard to catch a person moving that peep, too.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Because of all these innovative ways to circumvent the rules(cheat), why don’t the powers that be change the rules in the BH class to allow as many pins as you want. That would eliminate any excuses for not hitting the dot. I would venture to say the same ones at the top of the charts would still be at the top. My opinion: That vertical wire found throughout the BH class is a reference point in several ways. I shot with a vertical wire for a while, and I do believe it does give you more reference points as well as indication of wrist torque. That was probably the biggest thing I noticed with the wire was my wrist position was very critical or the wire wouldn't line up with my pins. I quit using it because it became way too much stuff for my feeble mind to have to deal with, as well as my eyes at times would not focus on what I needed to focus on.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> Because of all these innovative ways to circumvent the rules(cheat), why don’t the powers that be change the rules in the BH class to allow as many pins as you want. That would eliminate any excuses for not hitting the dot. I would venture to say the same ones at the top of the charts would still be at the top. My opinion: That vertical wire found throughout the BH class is a reference point in several ways. I shot with a vertical wire for a while, and I do believe it does give you more reference points as well as indication of wrist torque. That was probably the biggest thing I noticed with the wire was my wrist position was very critical or the wire wouldn't line up with my pins. I quit using it because it became way too much stuff for my feeble mind to have to deal with, as well as my eyes at times would not focus on what I needed to focus on.


Well the BHFS division is a watered down division (IMHO) Years ago when we had to shoot 4 inch vanes, 125 Grn. SCREW in points and the speed was below 200fps To top it off we had 5 solid pins, no level, no pin guard and no verticle line. The high scores that were shot were awesome. Todays shooters never really aim off the target and are scoring about the same or slightly higher. If you want to have all the bells and whistles then go to freestyle. They should have left the BHFS and BHFSL divisions harder and put some distance between them and FS. The thing about bow manufactures and sight manufactures being the reason for the changes doesn't fly with me. If the changes were not made then they would have to continue to manufacture bows and sights to meet the demands of the target and 3D archers. Like I said this is My opinion.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Rattleman said:


> Well the BHFS division is a watered down division (IMHO) Years ago when we had to shoot 4 inch vanes, 125 Grn. SCREW in points and the speed was below 200fps To top it off we had 5 solid pins, no level, no pin guard and no verticle line. The high scores that were shot were awesome. Todays shooters never really aim off the target and are scoring about the same or slightly higher. If you want to have all the bells and whistles then go to freestyle. They should have left the BHFS and BHFSL divisions harder and put some distance between them and FS. The thing about bow manufactures and sight manufactures being the reason for the changes doesn't fly with me. If the changes were not made then they would have to continue to manufacture bows and sights to meet the demands of the target and 3D archers. Like I said this is My opinion.


If that's the case, lets get some old school shooters to come out and kick our ass. I'm game.

no honeryness intended.......


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

subconsciously said:


> If that's the case, lets get some old school shooters to come out and kick our ass. I'm game.
> 
> no honeryness intended.......


OK but lets put back the way it was. You get your setup to shoot at 200 FPS and get rid of all those little things like vert. line, level, fiber pins, back bars, pin guard. Then pull out your aluminums and screw in some 125 grain points. Now lets go out and play. I guarantee you that the scores you shoot will be lot lower then what you shoot now. And don't forget to either shoot a peep or a kisser and if you shoot a peep make sure that it is completely tied in. Now go out and have fun. Please let us know how you fair. Because with the speed itself you will find yourself trying to find something to aim at when shooting the 70 and 80 and get use to almost always aiming off the dot when you shoot the othe distances. I am not saying that todays BHFS are bad shooters but I am saying that they have it a lot easier then the archers of an earlier time. Most of todays BHFS will never aim off the dot. Some maybe low in the dot or just at the top but few aim off. Speed definately has its advantages.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Rattleman said:


> Speed definately has its advantages.


Yes it does, but it makes yesterdays shooter no better than todays. I aim and I aim hard. I feel I would do just fine. speed is an advantages but a good shooter is still a good shooter.........


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> OK but lets put back the way it was. You get your setup to shoot at 200 FPS and get rid of all those little things like vert. line, level, fiber pins, back bars, pin guard. Then pull out your aluminums and screw in some 125 grain points. Now lets go out and play. I guarantee you that the scores you shoot will be lot lower then what you shoot now. And don't forget to either shoot a peep or a kisser and if you shoot a peep make sure that it is completely tied in. Now go out and have fun. Please let us know how you fair. Because with the speed itself you will find yourself trying to find something to aim at when shooting the 70 and 80 and get use to almost always aiming off the dot when you shoot the othe distances. I am not saying that todays BHFS are bad shooters but I am saying that they have it a lot easier then the archers of an earlier time. Most of todays BHFS will never aim off the dot. Some maybe low in the dot or just at the top but few aim off. Speed definately has its advantages.


When I last shot competitively in BHFS, I worked on my setup, which was as you described above...and solidly within the rules....no bubble, a Peep that was completely tied in with no gap allowed above or below the peep. 5 STRAIGHT fixed pins, no pin guard was allowed, and of course, the minimum of 125 grain screw in points was the name of the game. We could have a peep OR a kisser, but NOT BOTH. No "back weight", no clicker or draw check (same as now), 80 pound maximum draw weight, I think 280 max speed (which nobody got anyways, ha).
I worked on the setup with my aluminum arrows and was able to figure out a pin setting system that was good enough so that the 80 was the only "long distance" where I couldn't aim at the spot or a color break, but I learned a "system" of where to put my 5th pin on the dot, and look where my 3rd pin was sitting and move the bottom pin to that location on the target and shoot the 80. Always got at least a "4" on that and lotsa "5's" as well.
Of course, my pins were NOT set at the ole standard of 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 either; that never did work for me to be able to produce 540+ field/hunter scores with.
Once I had figured out how my bow shot with the poundage/arrow combination (poundage was way LESS than 60 pounds too), I then went to work on learning where to put the pins on the target in relation to the X-ring, spot, color breaks(field face), and combinations of pins for maximizing the yardages available with any one pin. It wasn't rocket science, just a matter of figuring your equipment out and working on it.

I would surmise that IF (and it won't ever happen) the "cream of the crop" BHFS'ers of today were put into the position of going back to the 125 grain point minimum, tying in the peep completely, 5 fixed STRAIGHT pins, no bubble, choosing ONLY a peep or a kisser, but NOT BOTH...that they would still shoot into the 540's...but not right away!

Removing the point weight minimum, IMHO, really simplified the BHFS division, and pretty much put it as a "watered down FS division." The use of a bubble at the bottom of the pin housing has helped too.

Did I forget to mention....that it used to be a RULE....that any "markings" on the back of the bow..>INCLUDING camo finish, or anodizing finish...that was visible within the site window...had to be COVERED with one solid piece of Black tape...or painted so that it was ONE color! Oh, yes, no blemishes or marks facing the shooter so he/she could see them at the side of the site window!

Heck, with today's new bows, however....some of the BHFS'ers may well HAVE TO go back to 125 grain points...just to slow the bow down to the 300 fps for NFAA competitions, hahahahaha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

subconsciously said:


> Yes it does, but it makes yesterdays shooter no better than todays. I aim and I aim hard. I feel I would do just fine. speed is an advantages but a good shooter is still a good shooter.........


True but have you ever had to really aim off the bale for some of your shots?? For example pick a leaf about 10 feet above the bale to aim at in order to shoot the 80 or 70. Have you ever had to shoot above the 3 ring in order to hit the 65. Did you ever try to aim in low light with a brass pin. What about shooting on a side hill with out a bubble. Just something to think about. I am not insulting your abilities but just stating a fact that your style has become watered down with all the new gadgets. I know that everyone has the same advantage but that is not what I am trying to get at. All I am saying is the BHFS division and the FS division are almost on a par. Unless you have shot both you know not what you are speaking.


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## Slim37KS (Feb 18, 2009)

*Guilty*

I know Im guilty of several of breaking several of the listed rules.....mainly due to ignorance that there were such rules.

1. straddelling the stake
2. shooting wrong target first (on some)
3. touching arrows before they are scored.

But Ive also never shot a tourney either, just shot on weekends, evenings, and field league, so please dont burn me at the stake, Im only starting my 2nd year shooting. LOL


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

I never really considered 'touching the arrows' and I'm guilty of, if I am calling/scoring, occasionally touching one as I score it to 'see which one it is' when they are all stacked up. Honestly though, before it get's to that point, any 'Shakespeare's' that were shot, have already been decided. That's the first thing you look at when ya walk up.. 

So, not really an issue, but.. thanks for makin me more aware. I'll not touch em no more.. :nono: :fear: :lol:


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## Slim37KS (Feb 18, 2009)

IGluIt4U said:


> I never really considered 'touching the arrows' and I'm guilty of, if I am calling/scoring, occasionally touching one as I score it to 'see which one it is' when they are all stacked up. Honestly though, before it get's to that point, any 'Shakespeare's' that were shot, have already been decided. That's the first thing you look at when ya walk up..
> 
> So, not really an issue, but.. thanks for makin me more aware. I'll not touch em no more.. :nono: :fear: :lol:


That's what I do if it loaded up tight I'll touch the nocks to see whats what.......I use the other hand to tally the score on my fingers


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Rattleman said:


> True but have you ever had to really aim off the bale for some of your shots?? For example pick a leaf about 10 feet above the bale to aim at in order to shoot the 80 or 70. Have you ever had to shoot above the 3 ring in order to hit the 65. Did you ever try to aim in low light with a brass pin. What about shooting on a side hill with out a bubble. Just something to think about. I am not insulting your abilities but just stating a fact that your style has become watered down with all the new gadgets. I know that everyone has the same advantage but that is not what I am trying to get at. All I am saying is the BHFS division and the FS division are almost on a par. Unless you have shot both you know not what you are speaking.


Been shooting since 1986 - my first real bow was Pearson (I think), it was 46+- ata and shot about 220 fps with 2413's. 

I remember the days of put your 65 on the target, look at your 50, move it up and give it alittle............I guess i do know what Im speaking of.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

subconsciously said:


> Been shooting since 1986 - my first real bow was Pearson (I think), it was 46+- ata and shot about 220 fps with 2413's.
> 
> I remember the days of put your 65 on the target, look at your 50, move it up and give it alittle............I guess i do know what Im speaking of.


Yes you do. Then you also know what kind of dedication it took to shoot the same scores that are shot today. You probably shot at about 70# to get that type of speed and probably shot an overdraw. Kinda makes you go HMMMM


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