# Stabilizers Fact vs Fiction



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

How much of the current thinking regarding stabilizers is based on real science and how much is based on theory and "tribal knowledge"? I'm talking about weight placement, stab length, stiffness, angles, and other parameters.

Anyone care to weigh in? We spend lots of hard earned money investing in stabilization and we should be spending that money wisely, right?


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Ttt


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

There's real science behind the principal of moving weight/mass farther from the rotation point to add stability, but the "where" and "how much" part of it is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. If you don't like the current trend is stabilization, just wait 5 minutes ... there will be another along shortly..


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

nestly said:


> There's real science behind the principal of moving weight/mass farther from the rotation point to add stability, but the "where" and "how much" part of it is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. If you don't like the current trend is stabilization, just wait 5 minutes ... there will be another along shortly..


So if that's the case, the longer rear stab the more improvement in reducing movement from the rotational point, right? Otherwise, what is the science behind a rear stab?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

carlosii said:


> So if that's the case, the longer rear stab the more improvement in reducing movement from the rotational point, right? Otherwise, what is the science behind a rear stab?


The longer they are and heavier the weight on the ends, the less they'll be prone to rotation. That would apply to front and back bars. That said, a back bar is more often employed to give front/back and some right/left balance as well. The long front rod will essentially take care of rotation about the Y axis of the bow. The back bar helps on the X and Z axes.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Agree with nestly and huntinsker. The science of stabilization is pretty much just basic mechanical engineering, and the resulting effects of any given configuration are therefore quite predictable. The art of it, however, is like any other art - the final resting place that you like you have to find by simple trial-and-error.

For example, I have found I shoot the best scores with only a single 10" Beiter side bar with a 3 oz weight on the bow and that's it. The science of that is, my ability to move the pin back to where I need it when it's out of place is poor. So if I have a lot of inertia, when I do move around on the shot more than I should, I tend to shoot wilder bad shots - if the pin is off it takes more effort to get it back on. And if the release goes off when the pin is off, well.... that's bad . Now, the good shots are better because a long high-inertia stab holds the bow in place better, but the bad ones are a lot more bad; they really penalize me a lot harder.

That's mostly just a training issue coupled with being old, fat and weak too. But at the current time, I always go back to my little side bars, even on my colossal Hoyt wheel bow because I can't (yet?) hold as still as the young flat-bellies can . 

But that's my take on it. Use the science of it to guide you when practicing the art of it....

lee.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I have never seen any difference between the old aluminum stabilizers and the new all carbon stabilizers of today when properly set up. In fact, one of my bows have front and side new Doinker stabilizers while another has old aluminum front and side AEP stabilizers circa 2004. The AEP actually holds better and I have it on my #1 bow. So other that the enormous cost of the carbon, I see no difference when shooting both bows. Both bows are steady when holding on target and both bows leave a dead in hand feel after the shot. Both bows hit the spot out to 100 yards. 

The new stabilizer today has wires that run down four sides of the stabilizer. You are to tune it by adjusting the tension on different wires. Looks cool and a few people I have to shoot with have them. If they work, and the archers I shoot with who gets them for free say they are the best thing that ever happened to stabilizers, I will have to look at them.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

carlosii said:


> So if that's the case, the longer rear stab the more improvement in reducing movement from the rotational point, right? Otherwise, what is the science behind a rear stab?


Rear bars are generally about "balance". In other words, if you have a lot of front stabilization, the bow is typically going to feel very "front heavy". "Front heavy" is necessarily a bad thing, but being extremely front heavy is probably not a preference many have, thus the introduction of back bar(s) that allow for a lot of front stabilization without making an undesirable out-of-balance condition.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Definition of inertia

Inertia is fundamentally the resistance to acceleration, whether the body is not in motion or is already in motion, or in other words, in a "steady state."

Modern, like in the last few years, carbon stabs are lighter and typically stiffer than aluminum so you get more bang for the 'weight" buck when you attach mass to the end of them. 
Think "point mass" attached to a slender massless rod. Then look up how to calculate the inertia of a rod with a mass attached to it. 
In general, Inertia = 1/12*mass of the rod*length^2. 
Add a blob of weights to the end of it and you get Inertia = 1/12*mass of the rod*length^2 + m*r^2 where r is the distance from the center of gravity of the rod to the center of gravity of the blob of weights. Assuming the rod is uniform in dimensions, then r = rod length/2. You can easily see if the rod is light, that the blob of weights has a significant effect on the total inertia of the stabilizer.

Carbon stabs typically afford a smaller diameter to hold the same amount of weight as an aluminum stab so the side benefit is lower wind resistance.

The new style of stabs with 3 tension cables seem to make a difference with everyone who uses them (who I've talked to). They basically move the cg of the end mass incrementally to affect the follow through of the shot. I haven't tried them so I can't speak to how they affect hold or POI or how they work in the wind. 

The science, or more correctly, physics behind stabs is about as fundamental as it gets. 

Just like any other archery accessory, each will impart an effect to the archer that is seemingly different for each individual.
The non-scientific part is the iteration through different stabs looking for "that feel" that makes a measurable (or never measured) difference.
For me, I've gone through several sets of stabs over the last 5 years and use the lightest, stiffest ones withe the lowest profile exposed to the wind. Plus, they look cool. 
YMMV


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Bernie Pellerite brings the "pendulum effect" into it when marketing his stabilizers. Any opinions about this pendulum aspect? Is it science or marketing?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

All else being equal, the lower the mass/weight below the rotation point (grip) the greater the tendency of the bow to maintain a consistent vertical alignment (ie pendulum effect). This can certainly improve stability, but I do believe it's possible to have too much "pendulum effect", not necessarily related to stabilization per se, but too much differential between the top of the bow resisting movement vs the bottom of the bow resisting movement during the shot.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

carlosii said:


> Bernie Pellerite brings the "pendulum effect" into it when marketing his stabilizers. Any opinions about this pendulum aspect? Is it science or marketing?




I'm going to guess I'm probably one of the biggest proponents of the pendulum effect and probably hang more weight straight down than most, but it's not for stabilization per sey. I don't use a spirit level, I can't see a bubble, so I use the pendulum effect to give me a relatively consistent cant to the bow. Enough weight low enough gives me a "neutral" feel, even if the bow is slightly canted it's the same each time and I can easily adjust my tactile [sight] for the "off bubble." 

Otherwise, the physics effect has been described pretty well... Want to see it in action go to the park [explain to the parents so they don't think you creepy], get on a swing or other similar rotating toy, wind the chain up real tight and let it spin you while unraveling with both your arms held tight to your body and extended as far out as you can. That's what your stabs are doing for you. 

As for me it's a little different because the tactile [the aiming device that touches the back of my hand] really helps me with horizontal and vertical movement of the bow, my left/right misses are influenced by body sway from the trunk/release end [imagine a wind sock in a gust]. My front stab is mainly so I can find the tactile when approaching the line [my blind man's cane while I'm on the line], and I only add weight to look cool... Actually to protect the end of the stab and to add bow weight when wanting more of a shoulder workout]. I'll sometimes point a back bar back just to get a more neutral "jump forward" rather than a "roll forward" feel of the bow during follow through, but I am as of yet not noticing a difference in scoring.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

At the moment i'm running a 33" Doinker Fatty, it has good stiffness and damping and although not top of the range at the time I bought it I preferred it over the doinker estremo 30" I also had which costs double the price. I've also had HMC22 30 and 32", Easton ACE ss 29 and 34" and some beiters. Think it depends on what suits your set up rather than trends as the ACE works well on my switchback, but not so well on my Con 4. 

Trial and error is the key, no harm in trying the latest thing if you have the time and money. I'm currently liking a 10 degree down angle front stab but with very light weight on the end coz its shoots better than heavy does (heavy being current trend, better MOI etc)

May also trial a shorter rod say 28" as Con 4 is front heavy.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Length is good, weight is good (both science), but depends on the person. So personal preference about like anything archery. 

I gave of Chance's set up when he was going to Foley - "He gave of 30" front with 10 ounces and a single 14" with 30 oz." 

I can see the 30" and maybe 10 oz., but the 14" back bar and 30 oz. is crazy. Hey, I've seen and spoke with Chance and ain't no way he's that strong, for sure he ain't as big as I am. - just younger is all.

I've used a few different back systems and always a 30" front with quick disconnect which adds a good 1". Never got a answer to my question of quick disconnects and/or "V" mounts that add to length. One of my bows has old Mathews type back bar mount that makes my 12" Bee Stinger measure 14.75". Now, beings there is a formula I asked the question. Hey, 30" front stab times the weight on the end. 30" from where, the bow or the quick disconnect. My 10 degree down Bee Stinger quick disconnect add 1.5" to my 30" stab. 
Of the front down quick disconnects. I haven't found where they make all that much of a difference. I used a straight and a 10 degree on my MarXman and no difference that I could detect. 

IF I do the math;
30" front X 7 = 210 / 12" back bar = 17.5 oz on the back bar. Griv noted go to the next heaviest - so 18 oz. 
Disconnect;
31.5" X 7 = 220.5 / 14.75 = 14.9 oz on the back bar...or 15 oz. - 3 oz can feel like a "ton."

Okay, back pain and trying to copy with a bit of balance that doesn't add to my pain. 
I have 8 oz on the front 30" (31.5") and 12 oz on the back 14.75" ANY more weight on the back bar and the bow feels like it's try to tip over side ways, lose my grip on the bow - but again pain counts. Different bow, no pain and I had 7 on the front and 14 on the back and it felt good. How can Chance handle 30 oz on the back 14"?!!! 

Always hear of 1:3 ratio - 1 oz on the front, 3 oz on the back. For me a 1:2 ratio feels much better. Watch another tube video and still from training center over in Europe. I stopped the Video and counted the weights on stabs. 17 oz on the front and 21 oz on the back and still this person (maybe the same of another video) told of a 1:3 ratio. 

Weight is good if the right amount. I think I told a friend of mine (loosely said). He tried to mimic Danny Evans. Danny had massive weights on this bow. TY hurt himself and now shoots a bow lighter than mine, around 7 pounds. TY is a 3 or 4 pounds smaller than good size grizzly. After he got smartened up I watched him cut something like 3" off his Premier Plus front Bee Stinger stab. 

My 2012 Pearson MarXman of years back and all shot great. The single 10" back bar and 6 oz gave of my worst finish of the year, a 4th at ASA Qualifier. Today, employed again it has the above 8 oz and 12 oz noted. Bernie's vibration balls fully weighted. Last pic, shot great, but weighing nearly 9 pounds sucked...I like under 8 or right at 8 pounds.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I look to stabilizers to do mainly just that, stabilize (or slow down) my hold, and secondarily, to keep the bow still as the arrow is moving out of the bow... once gone, I don’t care what happens. Also, that 2nd function is quite far down the line after the first.

I like the absolute stiffest lightest bars I can afford. For any given total bow weight, I want most of that weight as far from the fulcrum (grip) as I can get it and still be reasonably easy to move around.

Front bar is going to be long at least 30” after that you start getting into more flex (technically you are always getting more flex all else being equal as you go longer, but after 30” you start to notice it more).
The rear bar is doing 3 things for me.

1) More weight on the back allows more weight on the front while still maintaining “balance” or more accurately, bias.

2) Weight on the back adds more inertia

3) Weight to the back and side (angle) allows me to tune the bow to hold more vertical (different grips need different amounts of side weight.

An add on for #2 is further lowering the center of gravity, but I only use that as a way to tune the rear stab instead of removing weight.

A flexible stab, specifically one that doesn’t damp the flexing action takes longer to settle. Too much weight on a weak rod can make the stab “bounce”. This is one good reason for carbon rods.

Of course, there is a limit to how much weight you can put on a bow, Reo and company seem to like to push that limit, where Sergio does not. It’s personal preference. 

I do not subscribe to any ratio, formula, or recipe to balance/tune my stabs. Part of that reason is that on different bows, my rear stab will be at different angles... mainly due to the grip.

Example, my Stother moxie has a large, wide shelf, and I have XXL hands. My hand will always be riding on the edge of that shelf. As such, the bow wants to cant to the right. The rear stab on that bow sticks out (Y axis using right hand rule) quite a bit. To help balance the front, this stab needs LOTS of weight.
On my Prime One, that grip has a much smaller shelf. The rear stab on that bow is as close to straight back as I can get without hitting the string. This allows me to use less weight out back to match the front, or in this case, trade some back weight and move it to the front. That bow would probably work very well with V bars, but that would add weight closer to the bow.

I think that the fact that we almost universally mount our stabs well below the fulcrum of the grip, angling stabs down is not needed to get the “pendulum” effect. I will angle them down to fine tune balance, but not for any perceived pendulum effect. I have moved away from the 10-20 down front stab mounts as well. When you angle down, you lose some effect of the front stab... but the rod will feel stiffer. 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.

I can get a rough idea of where to be when I shoot the bow. There should be no bouncing, shouldn’t feel “too heavy”, and pretty much every bow I set up has a distinct front end dive on release. Not quite Olympic recurve levels, but they all fall forward.
This is needed if one wants the bow to remain as still as possible during the shot (lock time). While not truly important to shooting, this makes tuning easier (at least for me).
When I watch a slo-mo video of me shooting, on release, the bow only moves straight back then forward during the shot. After the shot it tips pretty much straight down as my bow hand starts to drop down.
This is what has worked for me.
If I could find (and afford) the absolutely lightest/stiffest rods, I would probably run a V out front and an asymmetrical v out the back. Tuning bliss!


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Mahly said:


> I have moved away from the 10-20 down front stab mounts as well. When you angle down, you lose some effect of the front stab... but the rod will feel stiffer. 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.
> 
> If I could find (and afford) the absolutely lightest/stiffest rods, I would probably run a V out front and an asymmetrical v out the back. Tuning bliss!


That's interesting Mahly , I didn't know about a rod behaving stiffer with the down angle. I'm running a 33" doinker fatty with 3.5oz @ 10 degrees at the moment which although is quite a stiff rod, i'm thinking of trying a 30" with more weight to see if any better. at some point I will take off the 10 degree and do a direct comparison also.

not sure what you mean on the "v" but guessing you mean a vbar on the end of the rods?


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Nice part about the down angle is the front stab doesn't have point straight out the front.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## TrueTalker (Mar 28, 2014)

True story


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

*Switch,
Think of it this way if you put 10# on the end of your long stab, and mounted it straight, you would see a lot of flex.
As you point it down, that flex would reduce until pointing straight down.
It would also be much easier to move the stab up while it is pointing down than when vertical.
By V bar, I basically mean 2 rear stabs, 1 on each side.








erdman41.
This is true. I had a bow with a slightly of center drilled/tapped stab mount.
A 10 degree down angle mount allowed me to “fix” that little problem.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

When I run a down angle on front, I usually run a little longer front bar. This puts the "angular" momentum back in play and it acts similar to weight distribution.

I sometimes run a down bar for other reasons. Depending on my sight picture, the type of bow, and where my peep is all in relation I at times can see the straight bar in my view. It can distract me, and on bad days it can really distract me because I can see movement in the bar. Which creates tension.

Quality bars offer one more thing that hasnt been brought up - vibration dampening/resistance/feedback. All of which have little to do with the actual shot, but everything to do with you as a person. Reducing some of that can save some injury/joint inflammation.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Mahly said:


> erdman41.
> This is true. I had a bow with a slightly of center drilled/tapped stab mount.
> A 10 degree down angle mount allowed me to “fix” that little problem.


I was more talking about being able to offset some side weight from your back bar. You can run more weight swung out farther on the back just by turning your front stab the opposite way a tiny amount.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

So I'm going to be "that guy" again. "leverage" and distance to "fulcrum" may not be what everyone would suspect when using a 10degree down vs a straight front stab. IMO, the difference in leverage and bar stiffness would be too little for most (certainly me) to realize, the significant difference, IMO is almost entirely in the lowered center of gravity (pendulum effect) which is over 5 inches at the end of a 30" bar, but would be an even greater difference if measured to the center of mass on the stab weights.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

nestly said:


> So I'm going to be "that guy" again. "leverage" and distance to "fulcrum" may not be what everyone would suspect when using a 10degree down vs a straight front stab. IMO, the difference in leverage and bar stiffness would be too little for most (certainly me) to realize, the significant difference, IMO is almost entirely in the lowered center of gravity (pendulum effect) which is over 5 inches at the end of a 30" bar, but would be an even greater difference if measured to the center of mass on the stab weights.


There are a lot of us that can feel the addition or subtraction of one 5/16" fender washer (about 1/3 ounce) on the end of a front stab. 
Changing the relative distance of where that washer is to the grip throat is significant IMO. 
Now, use cosine instead of sine and figger out the new center of mass of the weights and one finds you shortened the moment arm nearly half an inch by adding that 10 degree QD. 
Now you need to add more weight to regain the lost inertia cause the sight picture wiggles more than it used to. 
Maybe some folks want or need that. Maybe some just add weight directly to the riser as low as possible to make a pendulum or just get the right feel. 
Mass is basically a term for inertia. The more inertia at rest, the larger the acceleration needed to create movement. 
Adjust the resistance (fundamental physics of your bow) to suit your tastes and style of shot. It's that simple.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nestly said:


> So I'm going to be "that guy" again. "leverage" and distance to "fulcrum" may not be what everyone would suspect when using a 10degree down vs a straight front stab. IMO, the difference in leverage and bar stiffness would be too little for most (certainly me) to realize, the significant difference, IMO is almost entirely in the lowered center of gravity (pendulum effect) which is over 5 inches at the end of a 30" bar, but would be an even greater difference if measured to the center of mass on the stab weights.


Agree with nestly. The main benefit of the downward longrod is the additional pendulum effect. Also, the drooping the rod does introduce a rotational component from the downward slope, which is taken up by the bow itself. If the QD is tight, that is. If the bow is really light there's the possibility of a canting movement of the bow that attends a left/right waggle of the rod because of that which may reduce the moment slightly more over against a totally straight longrod of equivalent length and weight. But it's probably negligible in terms of whether the shooter feels it or not. With a heavy target bow, it's probably impossible to even detect it and the net effect is just pure pendulum.....

lee.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Have to say i'm finding the 10 degree down front to have advantages and non of the disadvantages I was half expecting such as reduced counter torque, and have actually got better results with reduced end weights compared to my straight bar set up. For those of you who aren't aware and or may be interested, I have been testing the 10 degree for a few months now here. Have even lowered my back bar as I liked the effect of a lower C.O.G so much.


https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5458299&p=1108387735#post1108387735


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2kMSxXtyxk


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

loujo61 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2kMSxXtyxk


Respectfully to GRIV as possible, that is not completely true.
What he said I am quite certain is valid for many occasions, not all.

Again, I find that I do indeed need more side weight on one of my bows than the others. I am not raising my shoulder on that bow, it’s simply a matter of the shape of the grip at the self.

I am still not onboard with the whole stab ratio length/weight ratio/formula. There are way too many examples of top level archers using set-ups that are no where near close to those ratios. 
Everyone is different, everyone needs to figure out what works for them.
I for one do not want a bow that sits level on its own. For ME is needs some of that forward bias. Other shooters better than most, use anywhere from a lot more front bias to a lot less bias... same goes for side bars.
Some great shooters run a crap ton far to the side, some are balanced using V bars or similar set ups, some don’t use any rear bars.

While that vid may help some, maybe even most, it is not completely accurate for all.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> Respectfully to GRIV as possible, that is not completely true.
> What he said I am quite certain is valid for many occasions, not all.
> 
> Again, I find that I do indeed need more side weight on one of my bows than the others. I am not raising my shoulder on that bow, it’s simply a matter of the shape of the grip at the self.
> ...


Agree. I don't think it's correct to assume that for every person, when their shoulder is in the best position for shooting, their hand will automatically be positioned such that a bow will nestle into it in a perfectly vertical position. The purpose of the sidebar is to counteract the front bar, and to bring the bow to (near) vertical position, WITHOUT having to rotate the shoulder/wrist/hand/elbow away from their best natural position.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm on board with Griv's (side) bias analogy, I hang that back rod more out to the side and it seems to stabilize my left to right pin movement.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

loujo61 said:


> I'm on board with Griv's (side) bias analogy, I hang that back rod more out to the side and it seems to stabilize my left to right pin movement.


Rare is straight back. Rare is straight out. Somewhere in the middle is where most have the side bar. Seems 30 degree out is something of normal or average. Something like nestly has, so much weight on the side gives resistance (correct word?) to the hand that allows a consistent grip.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Rare is straight back. Rare is straight out. Somewhere in the middle is where most have the side bar. Seems 30 degree out is something of normal or average. Something like nestly has, so much weight on the side gives resistance (correct word?) to the hand that allows a consistent grip.


Yeah resistance is the correct word, something to hold against with limited effort, just enough. I'm not sure if the weight allows me to get a consistent grip, I agree with Griv, you need to first get your form right without the weight on the bars. IMO and like he stated the side bias keeps the top of your bow from wondering from side to side, kinda of like leaning your hand (grip) into it just a bit.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Once you think you have your “science” figured out, start making little adjustments while shooting long distance. You’ll find there is potentially more to stabilizers than just motion control.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

^^^^ True.....


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nestly said:


> Agree. I don't think it's correct to assume that for every person, when their shoulder is in the best position for shooting, their hand will automatically be positioned such that a bow will nestle into it in a perfectly vertical position. The purpose of the sidebar is to counteract the front bar, and to bring the bow to (near) vertical position, WITHOUT having to rotate the shoulder/wrist/hand/elbow away from their best natural position.


Agree, though I think it's also true as GRIV suggests that sometimes what might be thought of as a natural cant (to be compensated for with a side bar) is actually a form problem. That's my personal experience, anyway.

Now, reason I say that: the last couple years the only stab I've used on any of my bows is just my 10" Beiter side rod with 3oz on the end and that's it. Reason being, one of my goals is to learn how to hold and shoot the thing as best I can without any aids to begin with. It turns out that very recently I did discover that my "natural cant" (RH shooter, tilt to the left) was actually a grip problem. It corresponded to a stubborn knock-right on the BS I kept getting with all my bows, but especially bad with my supra max's. If I used my 35" longrod on the bow, that masked it a little bit and it was nearly straight at 20 yards. But when I went back to the 10 incher, or no stab at all, the knock-right would come back. So I knew something I was doing wasn't quite right, I just didn't quite know what.

What really clued me in was when my Shootdown arrived last week and "it" was slinging my bareshafts even more knock-right. Kind of scary knock-right, enough for me to go back to the blank boss and try to figure it out. Sure enough, I wasn't quite centered on the lifeline of the bow hand. Pure laziness turns out. So I started subtly rotating the wrist around to the left to get the handle flat back into the "pocket". The bareshaft straightened out right away and even went a little knock left. Much better bone-on-bone in the bow arm also. 1/16" to the left on the rest to take a hair bit of the knock-right out at the bow itself and that was the happy medium.

My "natural cant" to the left also cleared up along with - I can pretty much hold the bow straight up and down now with no additional effort beyond a correct (for me) grip. 

I may not, repeat may not, have been able to figure this out if I had had a sidebar on the right and just added weight to it to try to straighten it all out. I'm not blaming stabilization; I'm just saying that, for me, learning to get everything squared away with as little of it as possible to begin with can really help me reveal actual problems with my form.

That's also not "everyone should be able to hold the bow perfectly vertical" either. All I'm saying is I think GRIV makes a good point about not using stabs to try to correct what might be an actual form, grip, etc. problem.....

Just my .02,

lee.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> Once you think you have your “science” figured out, start making little adjustments while shooting long distance. You’ll find there is potentially more to stabilizers than just motion control.


Ok, I'll bite. What distance we talkin'?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

^^^ 40 yards for some and longer for others.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'm pretty sure stabilization has no affect on the impact of the arrow after the arrow has cleared the bow, whether by 1 inch, or 100 yards. If a particular stabilizer setup effectively reduces bow movement when aiming at a target 20 yards away, it will also effectively reduce bow movement when aiming at a target 100 yards away, and vice versa (excluding the variable of wind).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> I'm pretty sure stabilization has no affect on the impact of the arrow after the arrow has cleared the bow, whether by 1 inch, or 100 yards. If a particular stabilizer setup effectively reduces bow movement when aiming at a target 20 yards away, it will also effectively reduce bow movement when aiming at a target 100 yards away, and vice versa (excluding the variable of wind).


Not a spot shooter, but holding on the bull's eye at a longer distance can show a difference in needed or not needed weight.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

I've definitely found that setting my stabs at 30m will 99% of the time not work at 90m, and require significant change. However something that works at 50m mostly works at 90m, if it doesn't its normally just a small weight or angle adjust. I don't think this is always down to just the stabilisation, but assuming everything else is good...

Sometimes it can simply be too much weight, plus there is a slight hold angle difference between 30m and 90m which even with a very fast compound I think effects how your bow holds. So for me I have a set up that works optimally for 50-90m with a very slight compromise on the 30m.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

For what it's worth, assuming there is 3" of space between 40cm target faces indoor, the difference between shooting the high target and low target at 20yards is *1.59* degrees incline.
On my outdoor target bow, the difference between shooting 20 yard and 70 yards is *1.52* degrees incline.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Remembering stuff. Way back when (Lord!) when opted for a long stab I asked a IAA Field shooter. He said just add enough weight to make your bow behave. Well, I used my still 30" Cartel with straight disconnect and what weights came with it, I think 3 oz. I think I just learned my bow with the Cartel and shot. I went on to place and win in all the events, club and IAA state sanctioned - 3D, Indoor, Outdoor and Field. It wasn't until a few years ago I got deeper in stabs and weights. Got more money wrapped up in weights, mounts and disconnects than what the Bee Stinger Competitor set cost me.
I had all on my then new MX2 (40 1/2" ata). Started out with nothing on the stabs, front and two back bars and added weight little at a time. Right before the accident that wiped out my right shoulder I had a 10 degree front disconnect and two back disconnects, 2 ounces on the front and 2 ounces on the right back and 3 ounces on the back left. 30" front and 12" back bars. The bow shot great for the shooting I got in, nothing long distance. 
Loved that 40" bow and probably why it shot so good for me, that long ata. Told I'd be side lined up to 12 to 14 months I sold the bow (mistake). Pearson has not made another 40 incher.

3 or 4 years ago I set up my TX4 (IBO 340+ fps). It had hung from the day I got. So 4 or 5 years old. I did my usual tuning - removing the 2X4 wood grip panels. Put a sight frame on it and a black 8" NAP Shock Blocker (first to come out were all black). Okay, a hunting bow, no back stabs. Got it sighted in out to 40 yards and killed or scared the X ring to death (20 yard NFAA target). Challenged, I got it sighted in for 60 yards and killed the bull's eye with all following shots. This bow would tip forward to the point it would turn upside down. Let off on the bow is set to max, 85%. Set to 55 pounds, so 8 1/4 holding.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

nestly said:


> For what it's worth, assuming there is 3" of space between 40cm target faces indoor, the difference between shooting the high target and low target at 20yards is *1.59* degrees incline.
> On my outdoor target bow, the difference between shooting 20 yard and 70 yards is *1.52* degrees incline.


Might want to fire up yer CAD and fix that assumption.
Moving your dot at 20yds with the same sight setting is not the same as lowering the sight and keeping the scope/dot centered in the peep for long distance shots.
FWIW, my scope travel is about 1.5" between 15-85yds for a typical NFAA field course. 

Staying on topic, sometimes I remove front weight for longer distance and lately I have been turning up my limb screws and adding more weight. 
The latter is working well for 50m for an upcoming USA shoot this weekend. There's a big difference between 266fps X10s and 284fps SD23s.
The one place where a long stab with significant weight is a disadvantage for me is on 20 degree downhill shots over 50yds. 
Not sure any minor tweaks in rear stab or front stab angle that make that shot easy...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Rick! said:


> Might want to fire up yer CAD and fix that assumption.
> Moving your dot at 20yds with the same sight setting is not the same as lowering the sight and keeping the scope/dot centered in the peep for long distance shots.
> FWIW, my scope travel is about 1.5" between 15-85yds for a typical NFAA field course.


I'm talking about the angle of the arrow/bow/stabilizer/etc relative to horizontal in both instances, and the difference in bow position between shooting the top target and the bottom target indoor is virtually the same as the difference shooting 20 and 70 outdoor. If there isn't enough difference to change stab setup when switching from high to low indoor, then there isn't enough difference to change stab setup when going from 20 to 70 outdoor either because how much you raise the launch angle to shoot 70 is almost identical to how much you raise the launch angle indoor between low and high. 

Note: all numerical values above are based on my own arrows speed/drag (which should be pretty typical for an average adult male archer shooting outdoor target/field)


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

A bit more on what I have seen work for me.

My 3-D bow 35” Hoyt. Not that brand matters, but shape of riser does.
This bow I shoot with only a front stab (hunter class). With my grip, it sits perfectly vertical. My grip is consistent enough that I can use a shooter shooter to tune BS, and when I shoot it, it still shoots a perfect BS.

My former Alpine and my Prime (both 40”ish) both worked best with the rear stab virtually straight back. 

My Moxie (37or 38” I believe) requires a significant amount of outward angle on the rear bar for that bow to sit vertically.

Same archer, same day, huge variations.

I have used both the Prime, and Moxie for field shooting, both work equally well.

Oddly enough, that Moxie with the weird grip ended up being the easiest of my bows to tune. The Hoyt a close 2nd.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mahly said:


> My Moxie (37or 38” I believe) requires a significant amount of outward angle on the rear bar for that bow to sit vertically.


When you say "sit vertically" do mean the bow or the bubble? For most the bow tilts right because it's normal to. Yes, form, grip, arm and whatever has some to do with this. Weight to being the bow vertical or bubble to center can be wrong to do. 

Griv; "Though hanging the weight off to one side helps reduce the natural cant of the shooter. That cant isn’t really caused by the weight of the sight. The sight is so close to the center line of the bow, it would have to be very heavy to really have a significant effect on your bow balance. The cant or offset is really caused by your bow arm. The twin bones in your forearm are in a slightly coiled or in a twisted state to hold the bow upright. As you relax through the shot these bones begin to uncoil to parallel. "


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I sometimes wonder if people that claim sidebars/backbars are not to offset the additional weight on the right side of the bow have ever actually looked at a bow. Compound bows with conventional risers are significantly offset to the right through the rest and sight area, making the riser itself significantly heavier on the right than the left. Add to that the weight of the sight, the rest, and the cable guard which are all located right of the bow's centerline and there is significantly more mass on the right side of the grip/centerline than the left.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Rick! said:


> Ok, I'll bite. What distance we talkin'?


Well for one, I don’t think the relationship is specific enough to say “do this, and this will happen.” But when I’m setting up a new bow, especially a bow that is very different from the last one I shot, I will rough in the “feel” based on what I typically prefer as far as balance and reaction after the shot. Then I’ll shoot it for a while at short range. After I feel like the bow is performing very well, I’ll start shooting 40, 50, 60 yards and comparing those groups to what I know I can shoot, or what I feel are pretty good shots. Then I will add/remove weights one at a time from the front or back and continue shooting to see if there is any notable difference. There always is. 

What happens is I find out what the bow wants, rather than what I think is right. For example, switching from a Bowtech Fanatic last year, to a Mathews TRX 38 this year, using the same bars, I went from 18 oz on the front and 23 on the back with the fanatic, to 11 on the front and 27 on the back with the TRX. And I pulled the back bar in more. 

The TRX felt great set up front heavy, and even felt better on the shot, but the results were not what I wanted. “Tuning” the bars definitely affects grouping and shot consistency. You likely won’t see a significant difference at 20 yards, but you will at 50 meters.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nestly said:


> I sometimes wonder if people that claim sidebars/backbars are not to offset the additional weight on the right side of the bow have ever actually looked at a bow. Compound bows with conventional risers are significantly offset to the right through the rest and sight area, making the riser itself significantly heavier on the right than the left. Add to that the weight of the sight, the rest, and the cable guard which are all located right of the bow's centerline and there is significantly more mass on the right side of the grip/centerline than the left.


Well, I don't know how they do it, but the bows I have do have a bias to the right, but it's very small. In fact, in the past when I ran a side rod at all, I still ran it on the right side rather than the left because my "natural cant" was to the left. I've since learned that cant was actually a side-effect of a grip problem, so if I tried a sidebar again who knows, it may end up on the left. 

I'm intrigued by the idea of an intentional bias via the sidebar, a-la GRIV's comments, as a way to steady the bow. But I'm still just learning how to shoot a bow right period, so I have to get that down before trying it. I have to say though, on my current PSE's and my hoyt wheel bow anyway, I don't notice the bias to the right of the offset weight on the handle. I might just be used to it....

lee.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> When you say "sit vertically" do mean the bow or the bubble? For most the bow tilts right because it's normal to. Yes, form, grip, arm and whatever has some to do with this. Weight to being the bow vertical or bubble to center can be wrong to do.
> 
> Griv; "Though hanging the weight off to one side helps reduce the natural cant of the shooter. That cant isn’t really caused by the weight of the sight. The sight is so close to the center line of the bow, it would have to be very heavy to really have a significant effect on your bow balance. The cant or offset is really caused by your bow arm. The twin bones in your forearm are in a slightly coiled or in a twisted state to hold the bow upright. As you relax through the shot these bones begin to uncoil to parallel. "


I mean both. If my bow sits vertical, my bubble is vertical.

As mentioned, for me, different bows sit it different angles. I will use some side weight on a bow that needs it to make the bow want to hold level.

I understand the theory of a weight bias to “hold against”. Maybe I’m lazy, maybe I’m not, but once I check my bubble as I get to my anchor points, I don’t want to have to counter a bow that doesn’t want to stay level... I have better things to look at.
That said, I don’t really ever have an issue holding level... maybe I am using some bias. The bow never want to tip to the left... or to the right.
I find that noting is more repeatable than nothing.
I feel I can more accurately hold a bow level throughout the shot if I need to add zero torque to keep it level than if I need to add 1.274 in/lb to keep it Level. I can do zero more repeatedly than I can do <insert any number other than zero here>.

It the same theory as for “follow through”. To me, follow through, is simply not changing anything after the shot (effort wise). It’s easier to do nothing over and over, than to try to match some level of effort over and over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Purplebow (May 1, 2018)

I shoot a 30 up front with 8 oz. 12 inch vbars with 16oz on the left and 8 on the right. It helps me hold steady as I Shake so bad there are white caps in my bubble. (Neck injury) Even though I have a lot of weight to me it doesn't feel heavy


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Mahly said:


> I mean both. If my bow sits vertical, my bubble is vertical.
> 
> As mentioned, for me, different bows sit it different angles. I will use some side weight on a bow that needs it to make the bow want to hold level.
> 
> ...


I felt the same way about this but after I shot the bow with the heavier single back rod a while I noticed the bow leveled effortlessly. I preload, bubble, and anchor in and it stays there, like Griv says the biased weight makes it so you are only pushing in one direction, previously I had two back rods and it seemed like I was always fighting to keep the bow level. Obviously every bow and accessories combination will be unique to the shooter.


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