# Agenda Item



## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

An agenda item for Pros that will be brought up is to change the Outdoor Nationals to a 5 day event with all scores counting.
Any thoughts from other Pros?


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Do you want to kill the sport completely?


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

This would be for Pros only.


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

I think the 3-5 day format is fine as is.Not everyone can stay for five days,and being able to score three days and get out of dodge is more to my liking.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

2 questions: If the Pros approve the 5-day scoring format format, would that mean that the animal round could again be shot on Friday for the benefit of the Joes shooting 3/5? Would this eliminate the need for a 5+1 score?


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

Maybe and possibly.


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

However each of those would have to be it's own agenda item.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks. I will have to speak with my state rep to see if it is possible to introduce an agenda item as an "if, then" scenario.


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

I don't recall seeing this anywhere before. 

Who is submitting this? 

And apologies... I don't recognize your handle. What's your name, I looked on your profile but didn't see it there either. 


Oh, and your first question. No I don't support it. 
There are multiple reasons for that position. All of them involve event sustainability. 


Chuck


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

Discussed at Michigan and Great Lakes events.

Paul DePover.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

pe3d said:


> Discussed at Michigan and Great Lakes events.
> 
> Paul DePover.


Question: Is this a potential AI that is being discussed by the Pros at those events? Pros and AMs? Just AMs?

In any event, not a representation of a majority of the Pro Division, and I agree with wolf44, make it not a mandatory 5 day event for the Pros, and longevity is likely not long.

Aside from that, with any AI, there is an explanation of why it is thought to be necessary, or a good idea...would be interested in hearing the rationale of this potential AI.


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

Pros only. I would like to here the reasoning behind it also.


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

Hi Paul - 

So, yeah I hadnt heard a thing about it at all..
No E-mail or phone call. 
Presumably it'll be a topic of the upcoming Pro Meeting?

Again, non-supporter.
Financially (IMHO) I would submit that a mandatory 5 day (for any or all divisions) would be unsustainable long term. 
The current level of participation dosent seem to support it.
I've not seen nor heard any new data that would overturn that.
Willing to be corrected though.


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## pe3d (Feb 21, 2004)

We'll see how it plays out. My guess is it will die a natural death.
See you in Yankton.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

IMO I think there are two things that can be done to help attendance and survivability of field archery nationals
1)make it a 3 day event. You shoot fri sat sun and go home. I'd love to be able to afford to go somewhere and shoot for five days, but that's not some thing that I or I'm assuming most people who work a normal job could do. Not a fan of the 3/5 day format. A 3 day tournament would also reduce costs by the NFAA in regards to meals and lodging for the traveling NFAA employees

2) make xs 6 across the board, shoot a field and hunter round and ditch the animals. I'm not a big fan of the xs as 6 but if it's going to be done do it across the board


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

wolf44 said:


> IMO I think there are two things that can be done to help attendance and survivability of field archery nationals
> 1)make it a 3 day event. You shoot fri sat sun and go home. I'd love to be able to afford to go somewhere and shoot for five days, but that's not some thing that I or I'm assuming most people who work a normal job could do. Not a fan of the 3/5 day format. A 3 day tournament would also reduce costs by the NFAA in regards to meals and lodging for the traveling NFAA employees
> 
> 2) make xs 6 across the board, shoot a field and hunter round and ditch the animals. I'm not a big fan of the xs as 6 but if it's going to be done do it across the board


...amen! 
Or keep the animals on Sunday so everyone can split for home at a reasonable hour.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> IMO I think there are two things that can be done to help attendance and survivability of field archery nationals
> 1)make it a 3 day event. You shoot fri sat sun and go home. I'd love to be able to afford to go somewhere and shoot for five days, but that's not some thing that I or I'm assuming most people who work a normal job could do. Not a fan of the 3/5 day format. A 3 day tournament would also reduce costs by the NFAA in regards to meals and lodging for the traveling NFAA employees
> 
> 2) make xs 6 across the board, shoot a field and hunter round and ditch the animals. I'm not a big fan of the xs as 6 but if it's going to be done do it across the board


I personally like the 5 day, if it was just 3 I would still have to take 5 days off anyway for travel time, a straight 5 day I have the weekends to travel, making the x as a 6 across the board is exactly the same kind of logic killed the membership last time, doubt very much the NFAA could survive another 50% drop in membership again, I say let it happen on it own


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> IMO I think there are two things that can be done to help attendance and survivability of field archery nationals
> 1)make it a 3 day event. You shoot fri sat sun and go home. I'd love to be able to afford to go somewhere and shoot for five days, but that's not some thing that I or I'm assuming most people who work a normal job could do. Not a fan of the 3/5 day format. A 3 day tournament would also reduce costs by the NFAA in regards to meals and lodging for the traveling NFAA employees
> 
> 2) make xs 6 across the board, shoot a field and hunter round and ditch the animals. I'm not a big fan of the xs as 6 but if it's going to be done do it across the board


What are you going to shoot on the third day if the Animal round goes?


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Sorry 2 should have also said only shoot two days


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> Sorry 2 should have also said only shoot two days


That makes sense, though I'm not sure that making it a 2 day event will increase participation across the board. Personally, I'm less likely to travel a significant distance (400ish miles one way) for 2 day shoots, and more likely to travel for 3 day shoots or longer.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

FiFi said:


> I personally like the 5 day, if it was just 3 I would still have to take 5 days off anyway for travel time, a straight 5 day I have the weekends to travel, making the x as a 6 across the board is exactly the same kind of logic killed the membership last time, doubt very much the NFAA could survive another 50% drop in membership again, I say let it happen on it own


not quite seeing how if its a 5 day event you "still" have to take 5 days off. if you put a day on each end with a w-su event you'd take 7 off, if its a f-su event you'd take 5 off. Net net, you're still 2 days shorter on a 3 day event vs a 5 day event. 

considering 1/10th of the people that attend indoor nationals are the ones attending outdoor nationals, even if all of them stopped going or didn't renew their membership there won't be a 50% hit to membership. The people that go to outdoor nationals now are the ones that love field shooting. I'm not worried about them, we need to get NEW people to come to outdoor nationals. you can't tell me that a 5 day event doesn't scare new people away??? Even if it is a 3/5 day shoot why would anyone that can only take off for a 3 day event want to compete against people who get a mulligan??? 

The way I see it 180ish people attended outdoor nationals last year. Do you see that as a succesful national event??? Lets even inflate that number to 280ish people. Is that successful? IMO its not even close. considering this is an event that is in dire need of a shot of "new" people. Its not about what "we"(the people who love shooting field) want, its about what will bring more people to the table.

Just curious, where were the 1994, 2004, and 2006 IFAA world champs held and what class did you shoot in? (honest question)


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> not quite seeing how if its a 5 day event you "still" have to take 5 days off. if you put a day on each end with a w-su event you'd take 7 off, if its a f-su event you'd take 5 off. Net net, you're still 2 days shorter on a 3 day event vs a 5 day event.
> 
> considering 1/10th of the people that attend indoor nationals are the ones attending outdoor nationals, even if all of them stopped going or didn't renew their membership there won't be a 50% hit to membership. The people that go to outdoor nationals now are the ones that love field shooting. I'm not worried about them, we need to get NEW people to come to outdoor nationals. you can't tell me that a 5 day event doesn't scare new people away??? Even if it is a 3/5 day shoot why would anyone that can only take off for a 3 day event want to compete against people who get a mulligan???
> 
> ...


A 3 day event doesn't hold the weight a 5 day does and is really hard to get a Thursday, Friday and Monday only working part weeks either side where as taking a whole weeks is much easier, weekends to travel Certainly couldn't do Yankton or Darrington for 3 days but 5 days ya, as for my shooting, 94 was England, 04 Watkins Glen IFAA and NFAA and 06 was Australia


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

FiFi said:


> I personally like the 5 day, if it was just 3 I would still have to take 5 days off anyway for travel time, a straight 5 day I have the weekends to travel, making the x as a 6 across the board is exactly the same kind of logic killed the membership last time, doubt very much the NFAA could survive another 50% drop in membership again, I say let it happen on it own


My thoughts EXACTLY! With a 3-day shoot Friday, Saturday, Sunday - even with the shorter Animal round on Sunday, unless you are REAL close or CRAZY dedicated (I was in my younger days, but not so much anymore) you'll still need to take Monday off work. So Friday (maybe Thursday too) and Monday vacation days. I've talked to a lot of people over the years who couldn't take a day in two separate weeks.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

FiFi said:


> A 3 day event doesn't hold the weight a 5 day does and is really hard to get a Thursday, Friday and Monday only working part weeks either side where as taking a whole weeks is much easier, weekends to travel Certainly couldn't do Yankton or Darrington for 3 days but 5 days ya, as for my shooting, 94 was England, 04 Watkins Glen IFAA and NFAA and 06 was Australia


**disclaimer-I'm typing this on my phone so if something seems out of place, autocorrect got me


So did you shoot all 5 days? And this is me assuming so correct me if I'm wrong. If you shot all five days did you travel tues and Monday? Or was this when it was a m-f event?

I'm not arguing the wait of a five day is greater than a three day(did you see what I did there...lol ). I'm trying to argue that your attendance would be higher, people who want to shoot the whole events out of pocket would be less, the NFAAs out of pocket would be less and overall would be a good thing for the organization. IMO a national event with 180 people isn't a success. IMO a national event that the NFAA loses money on isn't a success. 

You're looking at it from the point of the die hard shooter. You have to look at it from the business side and the weekenders side.

From the business side your expenses(away from your "home base" where ever that may be). You have travel to and from(same whether 3 or 5 day event), you have awards for all classes(same 3/5), you have food and lodging (two extra nights in a hotel and at least 6 more meals x how many ever people you have working). Now figure that these "national" events, as an organizer, you lose money on 2 events out of every three years. As a business that isn't sustainable and you'd be looking for something to change. Either you need an influx of new shooters to pay some more bills, or you keep everything close to "home base"

As a weekender, you can only make money at an NFAA event if you are a pro, so unless you are a pro financially it's already a losing trip. More than likely,even if you are a pro, it will be a weekend in the red. The way things are now, most people can't afford too many red weekends. 

I think for most people it would be easier to take off of work for three days as opposed to five(at least in the eyes of MY boss it is). 

Do you see what Jesse b has done over in eu on the euro pro series as impressive even through its only two days?

Fifi what class did u shoot?


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

the 3/5 day was designed for the people that were within a tank load of gas from the shoot. It won't help the ones that fly in or travel 1.5 days. 
As for attendance , what matters most for who comes is where it is. you say 150-180 for a national shoot is poor, I agree. look where it was. This year will be a little better, & next year it will be even more. This is not a knock on the people who put the shoot on . It has a lot to do with how many archers live in the region & how easy it is to get there. Put the indoor nationals in N.M., A.K., or A.R. 7 see how many show up.


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