# Tab for BEST system



## josharcher (Apr 23, 2005)

I am shooting the W&W 360 and I love it works great with the BEST system it has very smooth leather and feels really good with out a shelf.
I have also tried the Angel tab but it was not as comfortable but that is just me.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I just took the ledge off of my cavaliers Doug-works fine-at least indoors


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Doug, it is funny you bring this up.

Since I've been able to shoot a little bit since the beginning of the month, I've been wrangling with this very issue. I had just taken the ledge off my Cartel (Cav. knock-off) tabs last Sept. and then began experimenting with other tabs when I began having the problem with my forearm. 

Actually, I'm not totally convinced the two (new tab, bad forearm) aren't connected.

I've had fits trying to adjust to a tab without a ledge. The Cartel/Cav. tab without a ledge just doesn't do it for me. My goal was to get good solid contact between the first two knuckles on my draw hand and my jawbone, and regardless of how I try, I cannot do this with a tab that has a metal plate in the palm. The plate keeps digging into my jawbone, and presents a thin flat surface (metal plate) on a round object (jawbone) which is not consistent at all. After much sawing and grinding, I finally gave up on using the metal plate at all and went back to an old Kantpinch calf-hair tab that I used for shooting my traditional hunting bows years ago. Finally I was able to get good solid contact between my knuckles and my jaw, but I lost about 1/2" of sightmark in the process :thumbs_do 


This past weekend, I fiddled around and just about destroyed all the tabs in my workshop, morphing old Cordovan faces with different finger spacers and finger loops, adapting Cartel, Neet and Kantpinch tabs to try and figure out what I need. I cut, grinded and scissored leather, metal and plastic until I almost lost my mind (at least, that's what my wife was telling me... )

But I think I'm finally gettting somewhere.

What I've ended up with looks an awful lot like an Angel tab without a ledge. Kinda between an Angel and a Black Widow (Wilson) tab, but with one of those nice finger spacers from the Kantpinch tab series (those are my favorite finger spacers). 

I plan to do some more testing, but after what I've learned about building tabs in the past 48 hours, I very well might just buy a sheet of Cordovan leather and a few Kantpinch spacers (if I can get them) and start building my own tabs. A little spare leather and some superglue to bind it together and stiffen it in the right place can produce a pretty nice tab.

If I had to direct someone to a store-bought tab right now for use with the BEST method, I'd send them to get a W&W, Angel or Black Widow (Wilson) tab w/o the ledge. Cartel also makes one that they claim the Korean team uses, but alas, after serious review of some video I have from Athens, not all the Korean archers were using that kind of tab. Ironically, Yun-Mi Jin (sp?) was clearly using a Cavalier tab with a ledge! Aarrrggh!!!  

So, my search for the perfect tab continues, and I'm right there with you bud...

The best part about all of this is that my forearm issues have managed to die down enough that I'm actually able to shoot without thinking about how much my arm hurts. Add to this my newly developed indoor-outdoor-indoor range  and I'm a happy camper right now.

John.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I am looking for a better solution myself. I've spent a lot of time at the grinding wheel trying to make the Cavalier workable. My chin is taking a beating.
The secondary issue is when trying to get a snug draw hand to jaw contact, I tend to move pressure to my index finger and voila, high misses. In fact throughout this whole process i've had some real ugly vertical miss problems....usually high misses when snugging in.

I have yet to break out my Kantpinch, but I know where it is.

Any thoughts?


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

I have found that snugling in causes me problems so now i draw low and gring the plate of my AF tab up to a light contact with the jaw.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Doug, it is funny you bring this up.
> 
> What I've ended up with looks an awful lot like an Angel tab without a ledge. Kinda between an Angel and a Black Widow (Wilson) tab, but with one of those nice finger spacers from the Kantpinch tab series (those are my favorite finger spacers).
> 
> ...


John,

I am glad to hear that your forearm is getting better. 

In the past, I’ve always shot with home made tabs (never used ledges or metal plates and could not find production tabs which I would be completely happy with). Eli Korea tab is the only production tab which came close to my liking and is similar to what you’ve described (something in between Angel/Black Widow and no ledge or metal plate). You should be able to see it on this link: 

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.elikorea.com/eng/index.htm&prev=/search?q=eli+k

Just click on products and then on small tab image (left picture) and a window should pop up with larger images of both sides. I am not sure if you can purchase Eli’s products outside of Korea, but it might give you some additional ideas anyway. This tab is produced by Coach Kim’s company. He is also a strong proponent of shooting a tab without any ledges. I only have a couple of these tabs in small size (for my wife), so they will be too small for you to try them. As far as I know (last year) these tabs were only produced in right handed, which is not a problem for you if you decided trying them out and are able to get one.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

mbu said:


> John,
> 
> I am glad to hear that your forearm is getting better.
> 
> ...


mbu,

That looks like an excellent design. Do you have any idea where someone in the states can get one of those...or order one?

Dave


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> In fact throughout this whole process i've had some real ugly vertical miss problems....usually high misses when snugging in.


Precisely! I'm glad (in a way) to see I'm not alone...

This is exactly the problem I've had since I dropped the ledge... which is why I started to use the ledge in the first place! ha, ha, ha  

Mike, hopefully this (being able to shoot) isn't just a temporary thing, and I'll be able to build back up to a real training schedule again. I've been warned not to overdo it, but it's hard.

Wow, that ELI tab is almost exactly what I came up with here at the home workshop. In fact, the next tab I planned to make is going to look an awful lot like that one. I couldn't see the spacer though. Can you tell me what they use for a finger spacer?

John.

John.


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

John,

If you go to the ELI website and click on the second tab picture, you'll get a popup picture that shows both sides of the tab. I like the looks of the tab as well. Keep us posted on your new business adventure...making tabs for all of us.  

Mack


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

Picture from the ELI website of the back of the tab.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

wmt3rd,

mbu hasn't answered yet so I'll ask you. Do you have any idea how we could get one of those ELI tabs? Any US dealers? Any way to order over the net?

Dave


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Little sidetrack here. There used to be this guy, Danny, doing those fat plastic finger separators something like what Im Dong Hyun was using in the 2004 Olympics. Is he still around or is there anything similar on the market? Was thinking of finding a nice big piece of aluminium to get down to that size.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Progen said:


> Little sidetrack here. There used to be this guy, Danny, doing those fat plastic finger separators something like what Im Dong Hyun was using in the 2004 Olympics. Is he still around or is there anything similar on the market? Was thinking of finding a nice big piece of aluminium to get down to that size.


He went by spacerman, but I found his link, and his web page is no longer up.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Huntmaster said:


> He went by spacerman, but I found his link, and his web page is no longer up.


Yeah, that's why I'm asking. I know someone who got two of his spacers and loved them.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Can you tell me what they use for a finger spacer?


This spacer is made out of some kind of synthetic material and is very comfortable. It might be just a little stiffer than a kantpinch separator, but molds much better into your hand. The posted above pictures show it pretty well. Spacers on the tabs which I have look exactly the same, but they are in a solid blue color.



Dave T said:


> mbu,
> 
> That looks like an excellent design. Do you have any idea where someone in the states can get one of those...or order one?
> 
> Dave


Dave,

I am not aware of any US or international distribution sources for Eli Korea products. I met with Coach Kim at one of his coaching seminars; saw this tab and, eventually, received a couple of tabs from a direct source (not through a store or a distributor). It was my understanding at that time that Eli Korea distributes their products mostly within Korea.

I have this information on the package (see below), so you might be able to contact them directly. This address is almost the same as depicted on their website (just one letter difference), and both phones and e-mail address are exactly the same. Coach Kim is pretty fluent in English.

192-12Ga Yang-Dong, Kang Seo-Ku, Seoul, Korea 157-200
tel: 82-2-3662-6066,2338
fax: 82-2-3662,0155 
e-mail: [email protected]

MBU


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

MBU,

thanks for the info. Sent them an e-mail. I'll see what happens.

Dave


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, here's what I've come up with so far... You can see that the cordovan face came from my Cartel/Cav tabs. The other piece of leather is one that I cut out from a large sheet of scrap that I have. The finger spacer is from a $5.00 Kantpinch tab, and I'd gladly pay 5 bucks just for that spacer alone as it is by far the most comfortable I've ever used. The hard plastic Cav. spacer always wore my top finger raw after a day of shooting.

I do like the design of that ELI tab all around, including that spacer. Looks very comfortable.

The problem I'm having with the metal plate is that it keeps me from placing my fingers on the string the way I want to - at more of an angle than I had before. Anytime I use the metal plate (ala Cavalier) I must keep the knuckles on my drawing hand vertical. The tab I'm making allows the palm section to flex a little bit, which gives me a much more comfortable grip on the string, and it doesn't stray away from the palm of my hand the way the aluminum plate does. I used regular superglue to fix the backing to the cordovan face everywhere rearward of the nock groove. This stiffens up the leather real nice, but still allows it to flex. I can also seperate the backing from the cordovan face if I need to replace it, as I've done 2 or 3 times with this particular face. Just superglue a new piece of leather backing on, and go shoot. I suppose if you wanted to get fancy, you could use some small screws and nuts or rivets instead.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

The Angel Tab I is similar to the ELI where the Tab II has the hard plastic plate. The finger spacer is OK. 

I use the Angel II tabs but prefer the Cavalier tab. I use material from Angel to make the facing for the Cav. It is weather proof and wears forever.

Angel tab I is available from many US dealers
.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, here's what I've come up with so far... You can see that the cordovan face came from my Cartel/Cav tabs. The other piece of leather is one that I cut out from a large sheet of scrap that I have. The finger spacer is from a $5.00 Kantpinch tab, and I'd gladly pay 5 bucks just for that spacer alone as it is by far the most comfortable I've ever used. The hard plastic Cav. spacer always wore my top finger raw after a day of shooting.
> 
> I do like the design of that ELI tab all around, including that spacer. Looks very comfortable.
> 
> The problem I'm having with the metal plate is that it keeps me from placing my fingers on the string the way I want to - at more of an angle than I had before. Anytime I use the metal plate (ala Cavalier) I must keep the knuckles on my drawing hand vertical. The tab I'm making allows the palm section to flex a little bit, which gives me a much more comfortable grip on the string, and it doesn't stray away from the palm of my hand the way the aluminum plate does. I used regular superglue to fix the backing to the cordovan face everywhere rearward of the nock groove. This stiffens up the leather real nice, but still allows it to flex. I can also seperate the backing from the cordovan face if I need to replace it, as I've done 2 or 3 times with this particular face. Just superglue a new piece of leather backing on, and go shoot. I suppose if you wanted to get fancy, you could use some small screws and nuts or rivets instead.


John,

Your tab looks very nice and comfortable. I liked making my own tabs for exactly the same reasons you’ve described above. I’ve also used Kantpinch spacers before, but decided against them at the end: while they definitely gave me great feeling, they did not warn me if I was twisting my fingers a little and/or was not very consistent in my hand position in other respects. Based on its design, Kantpinch separator tends to rotate and follow your hand/fingers (feels always right and comfortable). I’ve used instead some home made or production separators (i.e. Spigarelli), tried finding the most comfortable separator/string angle and position and then attached separators at that angle and position with a couple of screws. You might be able trying it with a Kantpinch separator as well and see if it works for you.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mike, I see your point. I did ajust the angle of the hole that I cut for the finger seperator to suit me, but as you say, it still moves with my hand.

Looking at the Eli finger seperator, it appears as though only one screw attaches it to the tab. Is that correct? And if so, then what keeps it from rotating? Or is the angle adustable?

John.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Mike, I see your point. I did ajust the angle of the hole that I cut for the finger seperator to suit me, but as you say, it still moves with my hand.
> 
> Looking at the Eli finger seperator, it appears as though only one screw attaches it to the tab. Is that correct? And if so, then what keeps it from rotating? Or is the angle adustable?
> 
> John.



My apologies to everybody for misleading: the back plate of the Eli tab is made out of metal, not leather.

John,

This plate is very thin and the size of the plate is so small that it feels like all leather tab in your hand. This metal plate allows you to secure a separator with one screw at a desired angle without much subsequent movement. It is also possible (there is some room for this) to add an additional small screw to secure it even more. I’ve always used 2 screws on my all leather homemade tabs for this reason.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

I did a mod on a Cartel tab, by cutting away all of the backing plate except for the spacer mounting holes and holes for the finger string to pass through. I use the old plastic spacer ( with some personalised contouring ) not the new metal ones. End result is a more flexible and natural feel.

John
I was intrigued by your "newly developed indoor-outdoor-indoor range". I recall someone telling me several years ago mine "wasn't kosher".HAR HAR

Fritz


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## fusiontrix (Dec 29, 2006)

What's the advantage of having a plate versus not? From what I can read, you guys are discussing this in the course of anchoring under your jaw instead of the side of your face like a more traditional shot.


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*tab*

john, been shooting my new tab,(old tab cav.) soma from korea, so far i like it,its different, adjustable ledge,pinky finger support, nice finger spreader. the ledge can be raised for a chin rest or lowered to rest your thumb on. i was having the same problem,not happy with my tab.the somas different. the only place that has them that i know of is greatree archery. soma has a web site, so you can see what they look like. barry


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*soma*

Guys, 

This is the best discription that I have seen on the soma tab.


http://www.altservices.biz/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/005673.9.7258558206816707302

Hope this helps

Doug


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*How far do I go*

You know how far am Ito take this new best thing? I see there are some things that I think I can benefit from. So I think that I will go a head and change those things. I have had the same problems as you John when shooting with out a ledge. I think that I might just stay with the ledge. With out it I will loose yardage and I will have to spend more money on new tabs or butcher the ones that I have. I think I will use the things that I feel will make the biggest difference. When i can live at the training center I will let him worry about all the rest.:wink: 

Doug


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Doug, it sounds like we are experiencing similar issues and frustrations. I am sure we are not alone. We just have to stay with it, I think.

The problem I've had with the large metal plate on the Cav. tab is that when I place my fingers on the string at more of an angle (which is what coach Lee suggested to me), the metal plate always gets in the way. No matter how much I cut or ground off, it was not allowing me to do what I wanted with my finger placement.

I just sent a message and this picture to coach Lee to confirm what he had told me. My interpretation was that the string should follow the white line on the face of the tab, laying at an angle to the fingers. The red line is what I had been doing for several years. He said the following:



> Regarding your question, it is common for all top archers in the world. The angle with white line is fine but not red line.


So that's what I'm going with now, and it's beginning to pay off. My string hand seems much more relaxed and my release seems to be smoother than before (anyone who watched me shoot in '04 knows I had a pretty unorthodox release, and it could stand a lot of improvement).

John.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Wow, this sounds like deja vu. In the 70's I shot very well with an angled placement. I can't wait to revisit this approach. But maybe tonights league isn't quite the right time. Thanks for jogging the memory Limbwalker!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

From coach Lee's website...



> Further the hand must be placed on the string such that the back of the hand is not parallel to the string, but slightly angled away from the string, the way it would finish up under the jaw when at anchor. Shelf tabs are not recommended, as they can prevent a solid connection to be made with the whole upper part of the draw hand.


John.


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

*Morphing thread..*

John,

To get that angle, are you putting the string well back behind the first joint crease of the index finger? I've been playing with the string angle as well and this is what I have to do.

I'm starting to get the "make your own tab" bug.

Mack


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No, the string lays right in the first groove of my index finger this way. You have to remember that when you angle your fingers and place them on a vertical string, that "groove" in your index finger is effectively wider than it is when the knuckes are kept vertical. Make sense?

John.


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

Sorry, but I don't get it. Can you take a picture of your hand on the string, without the tab, to show me? My brain is starting to cramp.

Thanks,

Mack


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think this is where we are going with this. You can see that the groove of her index finger lays across the string. From everything I can tell, this is exactly what coach Lee prescribes. I simply don't see how you can do this with a tab that has a ledge or large metal plate. Small metal plate perhaps, but not large.

Hmmm, that sure looks like a Kantpinch finger seperator to me...

John.


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

OK, I think I'm getting it. The string looks like it does rest behind the first joint at the top of the index finger, but exits at the 1st crease. Is that it?

Mack

PS. Are you coming to the March HPP coaching clinic in Colorado? I'll be there and this time I hope to not have any body part in a sling.


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*John*

I never could get my hand parallel with the string. I don't know about you but in the full draw position the bottom of the back of the string hand naturally rotated away from my neck. My bones just would not let my hand become horizontal. I guess I was not made that way. Could yo bend the ledge slightly up so that It is higher toward the face than the tab to achieve a slight angle of the back of the hand at full draw?

Just a thought. Since I have chemo brain I get these weird thoughts. LOL

Doug


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mack, yes I think that is it. And no, I won't be able to make the March HPP seminar. I fly to the D.C. area for a week and turn right around and fly to Chula Vista for the March Dream Team camp back-to-back. Just can't do it all...

Doug, certainly this not the only way... If you watch the excellent video of Yun Mi Jin that Miika has on his server, it is very clear that she uses a Cavalier tab with a ledge, and in addition, keeps the knuckles of her draw hand rather vertical.

I myself tried to bend the ledge on my tab at first, but it was more than just the ledge. It was the plate that wanted to interefere with the string, as well as wanting to drift away from the palm of my hand - which I didn't care for at all. You see a lot of Korean and BEST method archers using the W&W tabs that do have a metal plate. However, the difference is that their plate is shaped in a way that you can place your fingers on the string the proper way. It does not take up 60% of the face of the tab the way the Cavalier plate does, and the Korean tabs do not use such a thick plate either. I suspect they can do this because they are not fastening screws into the plate the way the Cav does. Rather, they use rivets or smaller fasteners, so the plate does not have to be thick enough to accept threads.

John.


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## bownut-tl. (Sep 21, 2003)

*Broken Wrist*

John,

When Amanda came back from the Dream Team camp 2 session and showed me the "Broken Wrist" method of grabbing the string that Coach Lee was teaching the kids, it results in a string position that is exactly as shown with the white line.

Terry


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Is there an alternative finger spacer that we can get for the Cavalier tab? My daughter loves the tab, but she's not always liked the spacer that came with it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Terry, yes this is where I first heard this too (from coach Lee). Because of an injury to my arm, I've not had as much time to work with this as I would like, but finally I am able to give it some attention and it seems to be working, for me at least.

In all fairness, MBU led me to a link that shows a picture (allegedly) of Park Sung Hyun's tab and it is quite clearly a Cavalier tab with a small ledge. So if that is her tab, that would make two of the Korean women that were using this tab in Athens. 



Clearly, Park was able to use the Cav. tab even with a ledge and still attain the angled fingers on the bowstring.  So obviously it can be done.

Right now, I am heading down another road - away from the plates and ledges. It is much more comfortable for me to shoot without them, and my forearm is thanking me at the moment. Time will tell if the results will be as good or better....

John.


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

*Has anyone tried these tabs?*

I did a search and came up with this site; http://www.ewbateman.com/FingerTabs.htm. I've never used them, but they look like a simple design without the stuff that gets in the way. When I got home last night, I took out my bow and the Cavalier tab and just like John, I could not get the string angle like I wanted. The metal plate got in the way.  

Has anyone used the E.W. Bateman tabs?

Mack


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mack,

I know some traditional shooters that use them and like them. However, I'd probably go out and buy an Angel or W&W tab (or Eli if I could get my hands on one) before a Bateman. Reason being, the Bateman doesn't have the little flaps of extra leather on the backing that keeps your fingers from making contact with the nock. Not sure how important that really is, as the Cavalier doesn't have that feature either, but it does make a tab more comfortable to shoot for me. 

If you look at the picture of the tab I made, the leather backing has a little flap that goes over the top of the arrow shaft to prevent my index finger from making contact with the arrow. This fixed a problem I always had with the Cav. tabs, in that my index finger would get a callous over time where it rubbed against the arrow nock. Some would probably say that the index finger shouldn't touch the arrow at all, but I've never figured out how to prevent that from happening, so the little flap of leather backing sure helps me.

John.


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*w&w 360*

Does anyone have a pic of the side of the tab that has the finger separator on it? All the ones that I can find just show the face side of the tab.

Thanks Again,
Doug


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

Yea, I noticed the lack of backing too. I also have a callus on the index finger and I need the extra protection as well. I've got an old Black Widow tab that I'm going to take apart and tinker with. My kids just roll their eyes when I start obsessing. Watch out, Dad is tinkering again. :shade: 

Mack


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Mack, you have no idea what tinkering is 

I have a complete machine shop and injection molding operation to play with after hours.

Obsessing is a passion of mine. LOL!

Here's a pic of some of the pieces parts I've been playing with for the last couple of months 

Cheers,
Pete


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## wmt3rd (Oct 20, 2004)

I bow to the master.  :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :mg: :archer: :jam: :jaw: :yield:


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

*How about...*

I've always wondered about a design idea I had for a tab. The tab would be centered around a finger spacer designed somewhat like a set of brass knuckles. The ledge being the upper most part of the finger spacer. The leather would be secured to the inside (palm side) of the spacer in a somewhat "free floating" manor. 

There would be no cord to hold the tab on the fingers. Rather each finger would fit through a hole in the spacer.

The palm of the draw hand would not have a plate in it.

You could go so far as to have a "pump" type set up as is in some athletic shoes to further tighten the finger spacers as desired.

The idea of a spacer that fits each finger like brass knuckles is to allow for a secure link between the fingers and the ledge area that contacts the chin.

Regards,


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## solstice (Apr 2, 2006)

Your idea kinda gave me an idea. What if you took the finger holes from a shooting glove, and attached them somehow on the back of a tab, your fingers would be in the same place everytime, and there would be more between your fingers and the string. just a thought


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

That photo of what is supposedly Park Sung Hyun's tab looks like a 2005+ model with a pre 2005 ledge.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Progen said:


> That photo of what is supposedly Park Sung Hyun's tab looks like a 2005+ model with a pre 2005 ledge.



Progen,

I know that many car makers release earlier their next year models, but I was not aware that Cavalier company does the same. :wink: 

Please follow this year *2004 *link regarding new World Record, which also contains some information regarding Miss Park’s tab. 
http://sagittarius.student.utwente....=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tab&start=45Taking 

Granted that this information came from GT and Miika Aulio, I am very confident that this tab indeed belongs to Park Sung Hyun.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

From what we have available here, the pre 2005 Cavalier tabs all had the round Cavalier stickers, ball chain ring, stamped metal finger separator (free then) and a thin ledge instead of the lightly stamped Cavalier logo, parachute cord, OPTIONAL finger separator and a chunky ledge.

I got one from 2004, but bought in mid 2005, then a 2005 one purchased in November 2005. Looks like we got really old stock again.  :sad: :embara: My supposedly 2004 one had fungus on the backing when I first got it.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

No reply to the e-mail I sent to ELI about getting one of their tab's in the US and it's been 2 days. Sure liked the looks of that one.

Dave


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

There's a dealer in nearby Singapore if you really can't get one where you are, Dave T. Should only cost a buck or two to send something like that over plus your stronger currency will make it even cheaper since most stuff made around here are cheaper around here. :secret:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Granted that this information came from GT and Miika Aulio, I am very confident that this tab indeed belongs to Park Sung Hyun.


Mike, I didn't go back and see who posted the information (probably should have though). Certainly if it was one of Miika's pictures, and confirmed by GT, then that was the tab she used without question.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser... :shade: 

John.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

John,

There were several threads on Sagi and ArcheryTalk boards with references to Miss Park’s tab. Link which I’ve originally submitted to you was on the top of a search list with tab’s picture. It was not the same link which I’ve posted here (took me much longer to find). I knew that I’ve seen it before and I wanted to make sure that I found original source.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So Doug, I guess there's your answer then...

If she can make that Cav. tab with a ledge work, then it must not be a problem. I just can't figure out how to do it. As soon as I changed the angle of my fingers on the string, it was no more plate and ledge for me...

John.


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## Levl4e (Feb 17, 2004)

John, have you ever tried putting a left hand shelf on your right hand Cavalier? It makes the shelf turn out thus letting your hand get further under your chin.:wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I did try that once. But at the time I was happy with the arrangement I had. I may have to try it again. 

I am by no means through with my experiments. I really have only just begun trying new styles of tabs. When I first started shooting the O.R., someone just told me to get a Cav. and use it with the ledge. So I did, and I never even tried anything else. And I never really had a reason to try anything else until coach Lee suggested to me a different way to place my fingers on the string. That's when things got interesting...

The more I look at that Angel II tab w/o the ledge, the more I like it. I think I'll just get one of those and try it for a while... I need to order some stuff from Lancasters anyway.

John.


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*Angel*

John, 

I tried the angel tab and the feeling was really off. I had a couple of shooters do the same and they came up with the same feeling. I think that I will try the win & win tab next. I will post some pics of my cavalier tab that I have tried to alter. This tab issue is so personal everyone is going to find what they like better than what someone else likes. This is going to be a individual as the grip that you think is the best. If nothing else this will cause archers to try things that may not be in the norm.

Last night I picked up the bow after being on the stretchy band for a couple of weeks.(Orders of my coach) I only worked on lower scapula and how I grip the string. I had coaches in the past tell me to use my pinkie to touch the neck to keep the hand in a vertical position. I like the angled back of the hand it is more natural position for me. After not shooting for so long and just coming off chemo I was surprisingly strong. Of course not as strong as I will be with much practice. I think I would have been very sore with the old style of drawing. 

Now, if I can find a friend with a tab. I am feeling very jolted right now.

This has brought some more fun into the chase.

Doug


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John,
> 
> I tried the angel tab and the feeling was really off.


Doug, how do you mean? It looks like a first rate design to me.

John.


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*angel*

I thought the same, I ordered two and ended up giving them away. I think the biggest thing about them now that i think about it was, I shot them with the ledge. The ledge was so far to the rear of the tab that it did not make contact with any bone structure on my face. 

I may stand corrected it may be a good tab if you are not using the ledge. So, you may have good success with it. Sorry !!!!:sad: 

Doug


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

*Dummy*

I have got to remember to stop giving all of my extra stuff away. I seem to be putting myself behind the eight ball.

Someday I will learn


Doug


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## nocksetpliers (Jan 23, 2007)

solstice said:


> Your idea kinda gave me an idea. What if you took the finger holes from a shooting glove, and attached them somehow on the back of a tab, your fingers would be in the same place everytime, and there would be more between your fingers and the string. just a thought


I've done that! I find I pinch the nock a bit more with it. I just took the fingers from a leather glove and stitched em on to a cavaleir tab backing. Not alot of feel to it although if some changes were mmade it would make an excellent tab err umm glove? Tabglove


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

I have just ordered a Soma Saker finger tab from Lancaster. I was interested in the ledge which allows you to shoot with your thumb resting on the adjustable plate with thumb contact on your face. Also, the pinkie hook on the tab looks like a place for me to get my gangling little finger a consistant position. You can see apicture and brief description at
http://www.perrisarchery.co.uk/new_products.htm. Lancaster doesn't have it in their on-line catalogue yet.


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Doug, how do you mean? It looks like a first rate design to me.
> 
> John.


John,

Tried the Angel tab again, you are right it is a great design. I know that I can be kind of wimpy but I use two pieces of leather on my cavalier tab. I shot with the angel for about twenty arrows and I had a hot spot on my fingers. The facing material is not very resilient either. I wish you could add more leather to them with out glueing it on. I am going to try to alter my cavalier to match the shape of the angel. I will post some pics when I finish. I hope to have time to work on it tonight.

Doug


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

fitadude said:


> Tried the Angel tab again, you are right it is a great design. I know that I can be kind of wimpy but I use two pieces of leather on my cavalier tab. I shot with the angel for about twenty arrows and I had a hot spot on my fingers. The facing material is not very resilient either. I wish you could add more leather to them with out glueing it on. I am going to try to alter my cavalier to match the shape of the angel. I will post some pics when I finish. I hope to have time to work on it tonight.


The thin material of the Angel/W&W tabs are the a big reason why I don't use them. I've been so used to the thick Cavelier tab that changing is a huge comfort adjustment that I've not been able to make. I removed my ledge at times and couldn't find a solid anchor to save my life. I've never been able to make a finger spacer work either. Especially the Cavelier spacer, with my finger angle on the string would make the spacer bite into my middle finger something fierce. I avoid them because I think it shows my problems in my form!


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

*Tabs*

Coach Lee to my understanding is promoting the Angel tab.

I've had my coach also tell me to remove my ledge and at first I got some high arrows...but that has been taken care of as my shooting form is changed to the BEST method.

Art


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

art v said:


> Coach Lee to my understanding is promoting the Angel tab.
> 
> I've had my coach also tell me to remove my ledge and at first I got some high arrows...but that has been taken care of as my shooting form is changed to the BEST method.
> 
> Art


that must be a recent development
I didn't hear him endorse any tab in Colorado springs in september (BEST CAMP) or the Level 3-4 in Chula in October-November. He did mention the new Soma tab but didn't "endorse" it.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

I've been working on some new ideas for tabs for quite awhile now. The key to the Angel tab is that it flex's in the hand. It takes a few weeks of shooting one, for it to break-in and conform to your hand.

Here are a series of pics of a Cavalier I bent up to simulate what happens with the Angel after it has broken in. I've flipped all these pics over to right handed so no one copies my lefty by accident 

If anyone wants to see exactly where the bends are placed, pop me a note and I'll give you a better one of where the bend lines are.

Cheers,
Pete


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

This is roughly how the string line sits with your index finger knuckle under the jaw line and the back of the hand at a 30 deg angle or so.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Here's a shot of just the plate.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

And roughly how I hold my hand and fingers at anchor.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2007)

*tab*

Jim, perhaps "indorse" is a bit strong. We just had our state indoor NAA shoot and they guy heading up the state said Coach Lee was suggesting using the Angel Tab.

Art


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

I just got a new digital still camera that takes 30 fps Quicktime video, so I had to shoot a clip of this new tab and what it looks like from click to release. Boom! :shade:










If anyone wants to look into a new digital camera for this sort of thing, take a look at the Sanyo Xacti VPC-E6. It takes 30fps video and 6 megapixel stills with a 3" screen on the back. It's well worth the $115 shipped I paid on ebay.

Cheers,
pete


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The key to the Angel tab is that it flex's in the hand


Pete, you just nailed the reason I've had problems with the plate on the Cav. - it doesn't flex in the hand like my home-made tab does. This caused the metal plate to drift away from my palm when I gripped the string, giving me an awkward feeling tab that just didn't "fit". My homemade tab has enough flex in the palm (and from it's design, I assume the Angel will too) to fit well even when I put my fingers on the string at an angle. 

Your solution is ingenious (as I would expect from you), but a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place IMO...

I'll just try the Angel and see what happens. But thanks for the interesting pic's!

*Folks, you're not going to get this kind of help from a top level archer very often... pay attention!* :wink: 

John.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

> The thin material of the Angel/W&W tabs are the a big reason why I don't use them.


Win&Win's tab is now made with a cordovan face and it's very durable and long lasting just as the Cavalier is.

My girlfriend went from a modified cavalier tab to a Win&Win with great hesitation and now she wonders why she wasn't using it before. 

She made the change right before Pan American Championships because she was having flyers off to the left. With the change, she's never had that problems since.

Win&Win makes a lovely tab with a good supporting finger strap and a very comfortable finger spacer.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

C3Hammer-

Thanks for those pictures, they helped me a lot. I get a similar "effect" by using a short plate. The medium cavalier plate fits between the top of my palm and the third knuckles of my fingers. From this position, the plate rests flat against my fingers. By the simple fact that my middle finger is longer than my index finger, the string naturally runs through the tab at an angle similar to the one you show.

For me, this seems to avoid the plate-shape issue you solved. I admit that it may only work for someone with a hand geometry similar to mine. However, for some it might save the bending work on the plate.

If you are interested, I can post a picture at some point.

PC-


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, after much frustration and experimenting, I think I've come full-circle - but perhaps with some improvements for now (for me at least).

I was getting way to many high/low arrows without the plate. Then I realized that without the plate, I was just resting my jaw on the tab leather, and it was flexing and changing my anchor point - which gave me the high and low arrows... I had also lost my nock indexer when I lost the plate. The hooking felt very random. Too random.

So I went back to the plate. And I adapted a Kantpinch spacer to it, which I must say is far better than the Cavalier finger spacer...

So I shot it for a while, then realized that I should try the ledge again to see where that hits me. With my fingers tucked in nice and tight, the ledge in it's conventional position wasn't working so hot. So, since I had some of the thin Cartel ledges, I though I'd try and reverse them. This worked much better. Then I cut the ledge down a bit. What I ended up with gives me lots of good solid contact at anchor, and presto! No more up/down arrows.

Two tuesdays ago, I shot miserably on a vegas 3-spot face. Probably the worst indoor score I've ever written down on paper. After going back to the plate and ledge, and the better finger spacer, I tied my personal best indoor NFAA round one week later (299 w/ 39x's). Big improvement, and much more confidence at full draw. I could shift my focus to expansion and aiming, and not worry about anchoring at all. 

Okay, so I openly admit this is a case of "do as I say and not as I do" on my part. We are teaching the Jr. Dream Team kids and all other BEST method students to anchor w/o a ledge. The RA's are being given W&W tabs to use, which have zero plate contact with the jaw. And surely over time, with plenty of familiarity, this is best.

But my experimenting leaves me wondering if a plate/ledge setup may be better for someone like me who is not able to train so many hours/week. I certainly think it is more consistent. One obvious advantage is indexing the nock locator with the plate. My hand feels like it literally "locks" in place when I put it on the string w/ the Cav. plate and nock locator groove. Couldn't get this same feeling w/o the plate.

What do you think Doug? Pete?

I haven't quite figured out how Ms. Park is able to angle her fingers on the string so well with the plate, but I will work on that...

Here's some more pic's... Tab on the left is an old Cartel that I used in Athens w/ Cordovan face. Tab on right is a new Cav. Ultra Elite w/ new plate material. I like it...


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2007)

Actually Coach Lee suggest the Win&Win then the Angel tab next.

Doesn't Coach Lee want all the shooters to have a very tight bend around the string with the index finger....someplace I read or was told that he will inspect the index finger and try to slide pencil or something behind it....If he can the index finger is to loose.

Art


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Doesn't Coach Lee want all the shooters to have a very tight bend around the string with the index finger


Yes, I spoke with Forrest about this on Thursday evening. He looks for a very deep hook with the index finger. I think this is something fairly new too. He told me it will help keep me from opening my fingers when I release, which is something I need to work on.

There are several things he's come up with since TA came out that are not in the book. He's working on a new theory about shooting shoes too...

Stay tuned. I think it will just get curiouser and curiouser...

John.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

> Doesn't Coach Lee want all the shooters to have a very tight bend around the string with the index finger


This may be why TEXarc made the following comment on "Archery Injuries" thread found here on AT:



> Also, the hook should be deepest on the index finger, which should probably be taking ~60% of the stress, the middle finger taking ~25 - 30%, and the bottom finger taking the rest of the stress. This allows the top of the string hand to angle in slightly and make stronger/more flesh to flesh contact with the underjaw, promoting more consistency.


This was quite different from the more "common" finger-pressure percentages that most of us had heard about previously. - John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes it is. 

However, the problem I have with this extreme hook and skin-to-skin contact theory is that depending on how deeply I hook my index finger, the flesh bulges up more or less (as much as 1/8" for me), and that changes the distance between the nock and my eye. I believe this is where some of my high/low arrow problem was coming from.

One thing about that Cav. plate, there is no question about where your jaw is in relation to the nocking point. Same every time.

Now, changing the amount of hooking from shot to shot or even losing your hooking during a shot because of fatigue can do lots of weird things to you as well. 

I will have to ask coach Lee more about this when I'm at the camp in March. Until then, I think I'm going to continue to take the "shortcut" and use the plate and small ledge. I simply don't have enough time to experiement and train on a weekly basis to work through so many details and variables.

John.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

I just tried the Saunders Pak Tab.......I'm impressed with how slick and stable it is. It has a good string guide to line up your finger position correctly every time. Plenty of options to fit it to your style. No metal to dig your jaw. I always looked down at this tab because it had a sythetic surface.

I ordered 3 more.

Art


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

I was viewing the DVD of the 2004 olympics for the umpteenth time. Can anyone identify the finger soacer used by Alison Williams? I was wathing her shoot against Park Sung Hyun.


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## huffy (Jun 20, 2004)

I believe the finger tab used by Alison Williamson is an A & F tab.

Best wishes, Mark Huff


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