# Flemish Twist Better Than Endless Loop on Oly ILF Rigs?



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gentlefolk...Here's a question that I've been dying to ask based on my personal observations and limited experience in such matters as follows...

A week or two ago I grabbed my Super Kodiak which had been left hanging strung by it's string for about a month...(while I played with my new falco force)...so the first thing I did was to check brace and sure enough?...it needed a couple twists...so I put them in and?...nothing...zero movement...then added a couple more and and just barely got some movement...but not enough...so two more twists and bam...it was there...so the question that came to my mind and begged to be asked was why did the brace show nearly no movement the first two times I added two twists?...then jumped a good 3/16ths with he final two twists? (and yes...I twisted in the proper direction all three times)...and the only answer I could come up with?...was this...

The padded loops have some serious braids laying in the string grooves..."lumpy" braids...and I'm speculating that it was the rotational position of those braids and the way they laid in the string grooves that played a role in the above results...and then of course I usually lose about 1/16th after a few shots as the braids then reshape and conform/mold themselves to the string groove...but then my thoughts ran deeper as follows...

As I recall when I called my string maker requesting an endless loop string for my 26# form/target rig he informed me that he doesn't produce endless loop strings but that he has some of his OLY customers who actually prefer to train/shoot with them...I didn't ask why and he didn't go into any voluntary in depth explanation...I just said okay and ordered up a string from him knowing that if nothing else?...that the flemish twist should be quieter and maybe even easier on the string grooves...fine by me...I was just needing a string and with no intentions of going for the gold...good enough but now?...

I'm thinking that maybe...just possibly....I may have my answer...and the answer I come up with?...is this...

Just like the braided ends of the flemish twist string that seem to mold themselves to the limbs string grooves of my Bear SuperK?...and knowing that there's no such thing as "Perfect" in this world?....and here's the big...

*IF?*

The limbs of a Oly style target bow were even just the slightest, tad bit out of alignment?...

I can see where "The Braids" of a Flemish twist string would in fact conform itself to any string groove irregularities no matter how slight...where conversely?...a "hard served" endless loop string never would...hence resulting in "Shifting Itself" into the limbs string grooves...slapping and shifting it's way into alignment with the grooves shot after shot after shot...therefore?...never offering up the perfect solution...(in an ever so slightly imperfect world)...that the Flemish twist string does.

And that's my twisted theory regarding how an oly bow...may in fact...benefit more from a Flemish twist string.

What say you all?...cause I'm left curious about this.

Have a great weekend and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I say you have to much time on your hands to think about stuff that is not really important and will not effect your accuracy one bit.


----------



## BigPapaGuss (Aug 24, 2013)

I know , so I stay silent? I barely understood half of that.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I say you have to much time on your hands to think about stuff that is not really important *and will not effect your accuracy one bit.*


I know that responding to you is probably a huge mistake on my part and I'm almost certain I'll regret doing so but...I just gotta ask...

So you know *this* for a fact Ken?...and if so...how did you prove it?


----------



## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Good question Jinks.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ya wanna know how I know this for a fact, simple common sense - if there was any benefit at all to using a Flemish twist string on an Olympic bow - ummmm - the Olympic archers would be using them - but they aren't - so I can say with complete confidence that there would be no benefit to an archers accuracy by using a Flemish twist string on an Olympic bow - if there was - the Olympic archers would be using them - simple common sense.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

And another reason I know this - is that even the best barebow shooters in the world would not notice the difference that you are imagining because we are simply not that accurate to notice something as minute as you are imagining.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I can't see a valid case for anyone to use a Flemish string let alone an Oly shooter.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

They look nice. :wink:


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Destroyer said:


> They look nice. :wink:


generally "quieter" too!


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

quieter - LOL - try bowhunting with a Flemish twist string when it is cold out - really cold out - they creak and stretch so bad that it is impossible to get a draw on a deer if it is colder than 30 degrees.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I don't like to speculate. Could you get a name and/or e-mail or phone number? Being the string nerd I am, I would love to talk to one of these people and pick their brain.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> they creak and stretch so bad that it is impossible to get a draw on a deer if it is colder than 30 degrees.


Uh, no. Didn't experience that with my worst when I was just learning. Cold has nothing to do with stretch--materials actually stretch more in high temps. I've heard bows creak--take-downs--but not a string.

I make both, I shoot both, and I now that if either one is made properly it will do the job just fine. My experience is Flemish is generally quieter, but I've heard of folks that felt endless was quieter. A big portion of it depends on how either one was made.

But, not to get off topic...how do I contact these people? I'm excited about talking to them!


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

QUOTE=LBR;1068163341]Cold has nothing to do with stretch--materials actually stretch more in high temps. [/QUOTE]

Shrink. Lots of things shrink in the cold! :laugh:



LBR said:


> My experience is Flemish is generally quieter, but I've heard of folks that felt endless was quieter. A big portion of it depends on how either one was made.


True, how well a string is made is most important. The flemish dacron strings I've purchased from certain stores have been much noisier than their endless loop counterparts. Modern materials give a better result.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LBR - I did not mean that the string stretched - it was the sound it made as I drew - it sounded like a stretching and creaking sound. I hunt in near and even below zero weather in the late season - and I can tell you that my Angel Majesty endless loop strings are MUCH quieter in the cold weather than the Flemish strings I shot.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LBR - I did not mean that the string stretched - it was the sound it made as I drew - it sounded like a stretching and creaking sound. I hunt in near and even below zero weather in the late season - and I can tell you that my Angel Majesty endless loop strings are MUCH quieter in the cold weather than the Flemish strings I shot.


It's the wax in the braids. Which is why the AM strings are quieter, no wax.

-Grant


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I shoot B50 (just because I still have a bunch) flemish twist all winter and I never noticed any noise when I draw.


----------



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

grantmac said:


> It's the wax in the braids. Which is why the AM strings are quieter, no wax.
> 
> -Grant


that what I figured - that wax would get cold and wow - noisy as heck


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

A well built string of either construction will perform, and be just as dependable as the other.

The only advantage an endless loop string construction has over a flemish string construction is - endless loop is easier to reproduce within tight tolerances.

Rick


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Any chance I can get an e-mail or phone number? For the record, I'm not the least bit interested in trying to take away anyone's business. I have plenty, I just have questions.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Rick Barbee said:


> A well built string of either construction will perform, and be just as dependable as the other.
> 
> The only advantage an endless loop string construction has over a flemish string construction is - endless loop is easier to reproduce within tight tolerances.
> 
> Rick





LBR said:


> Any chance I can get an e-mail or phone number? For the record, I'm not the least bit interested in trying to take away anyone's business. I have plenty, I just have questions.


*ANNNNnnnnnDddddd THEY'RE OFF!.....*

Annnnnd....Barbee Boy Comes Out Of he Gate Early with a slight lead on LongBowRules but LongBowRules is hot On The Hooves of Barbee Boy in a REEEElentless rush too the back straight!....And It's Barbee Boy by a Nose as they enter the back straight!...

to be continued...and continued...and continued... :laugh:

Folks...all I really want to know is...

If y'all think here's an advantage to a flem string since the braids seem like they far more readily conform to the shape of the limbs string grooves where the hard tight serving of an endless loop pretty much doesn't.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

LOL Bill. 
*** Mate? 

From what I'm reading, LBR & I are pretty much in agreement where this subject is concerned.

My answer to your question - No, no advantage as far as I can tell.

Rick


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Rick Barbee said:


> LOL Bill.
> *** Mate?
> 
> From what I'm reading, LBR & I are pretty much in agreement where this subject is concerned.
> ...


Okay...thanks Rick...I was just wondering....cause I personally have noticed some definite differences in the way flem twist braids engage string grooves as opposed to endless loop...and there were some rumors floating around that some in the oly venue used flem twist and I was just wondering why this might be...and the engagement of the string grooves is all I could come up with.

Thanks again and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, individual strand tension can be evenly built into and maintained better in an endless, that is, if that's important to you. For some shooters, that aspect is important. The real world, us, none probably.

Some string builder may tell you that flemish and endless are built the same in this regard, no difference in build, but, they missed the point if they do. There may not be any real difference to us in performance, but the builds are definitely different by design.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> Okay...thanks Rick...I was just wondering....cause I personally have noticed some definite differences in the way flem twist braids engage string grooves as opposed to endless loop...and there were some rumors floating around that some in the oly venue used flem twist and I was just wondering why this might be...and the engagement of the string grooves is all I could come up with.
> 
> Thanks again and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


Might be something to that Bill. Just not something I've ever paid any attention to. At the draw weights I normally shoot the loops are gonna do pretty much what the bow wants them to. 8^)

Concerning my experience with the Oly folk - I've not been told why they are using the flemish strings. They order them. I build them.

Rick


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Rick Barbee said:


> - I've not been told why they are using the flemish strings. They order them. I build them.
> 
> Rick


Rick, most useful answer I've come across is in the strand tension.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Rick Barbee said:


> Might be something to that Bill. Just not something I've ever paid any attention to. At the draw weights I normally shoot the loops are gonna do pretty much what the bow wants them to. 8^)
> 
> Concerning my experience with the Oly folk - I've not been told why they are using the flemish strings. They order them. I build them.
> 
> Rick


Thanks again Rick...and?...it may be just unique to my observations because the only two recurves I have are of very light poundage...my 64"/37# SuperK and my PSE Zone 68"/28# ultra-light form/target rig...and some will recall I used to own a 66"/28# Excel target rig...and even though the PSE Zone is known to be somewhat of a loud bow (as opposed to the excel riser) due to it's bolt-on ILF limb pockets?...

The Excel was strung with an endless loop angel majesty string....and there was no LLA feature on that riser...and my ears could definitely distinguish the sound of the hard, tightly wrapped serving of an endless loop string contacting the grooves at-the-shot...where with the flem twist on the 68" PSE Zone?...not so much...as it seems the braids are very soft (hence quieter) and well aligned as they engage the limb grooves.

I see some pluses and minuses too both but...just found that the uniquely individual way each engage string grooves and the resultant characteristics with regards to bracing to be a point of interest for me.

Thanks again, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I shoot Oly rigs 95% of the time and only use Flemish strings. I happen to make my own and use DF-97. One reason I like Flemish strings is because the loops are always more durable. The only strings I've ever broken were endless at the loops. Never had a Flemish let go because you have twice the number of working threads going around the nocks. A 14-strand endless relies on 7 strings at the nocks, a Flemish has all 14 strands taking the load. One time I broke an endless string and it cost me a set of very nice limbs when they were damaged beyond repair.

BUT.....The best way to know if an equipment type or shooting style is best is to look at what the top shooters are using or doing. In the case of strings that would be endless. Nobody I've ever seen at the top level of FITA shoots a Flemish string. I rarely embarrass myself at contests but would not call myself a world or even national class shooter. So I don't count. If you aspire to be the best and have questions about form or equipment choices it's always best to emulate the best shooters. In the case of Oly bow shooters it's an endless string. They ALL use them at the top level. There must be a good reason why.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stone Bridge said:


> I shoot Oly rigs 95% of the time and only use Flemish strings. I happen to make my own and use DF-97. One reason I like Flemish strings is because the loops are always more durable. *The only strings I've ever broken were endless at the loops. Never had a Flemish let go because you have twice the number of working threads going around the nocks.* A 14-strand endless relies on 7 strings at the nocks, a Flemish has all 14 strands taking the load. One time I broke an endless string and it cost me a set of very nice limbs when they were damaged beyond repair.
> 
> BUT.....The best way to know if an equipment type or shooting style is best is to look at what the top shooters are using or doing. In the case of strings that would be endless. Nobody I've ever seen at the top level of FITA shoots a Flemish string. I rarely embarrass myself at contests but would not call myself a world or even national class shooter. So I don't count. If you aspire to be the best and have questions about form or equipment choices it's always best to emulate the best shooters. In the case of Oly bow shooters it's an endless string. They ALL use them at the top level. There must be a good reason why.


Stone...you may have just nailed *the reason* (or a major part of) why Mr. Barbee receives orders for flemish strings from Olympic trainers...Maybe the Flemish strings are easier on the limb failures...and maybe the fact that they typically don't hold brace quite as well as an endless loop keeps the aspiring archers on their toes regarding staying on top of BH tuning issues...for use as a "Training String"...but this is just me speculating...however I thank you for the info and sharing you're experience with such.

I know that another reason I like flem twist on my form/practice/target rig is this...besides the softer, quieter quality of the way the braids engage the string grooves?...(despite that endless loops seem to hold brace a bit better)...a pet-peeve of mine with endless loop strings has always been worrying about "when" the loop end servings are going to start suffering "Serving Separation"...as it seems...sooner or later?...they all do...no matter how tightly they were wrapped as new.

And since I'll never be going for the gold or even a place on the podium?...I'll stick with the Flemish strings...and I think my cheapy $159 samick universal wood/glass limbs with thank me for doing so. 

Thanks again and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

If I may be so bold as to ask the obvious...

Why the secrecy? If I knew who they were, I'd ask without hesitation, because I want to learn more from the people actually doing the shooting. 

I can make w.a.g.'s, but that's all they would be, even based on thousands of strings worth of experience. I could be wrong, but my assumption is a serious Olympic shooter doesn't pick equipment on a whim--there's a reason for it.

Seeing how, to my knowledge, there's been World records set and World championships won in most categories of archery other than Olympic and Olympic style archery with Flemish strings, there's obviously no real difference in performance between the two. I've never heard of an Olympic shooter using Flemish before, so I'd like to know why this one facility is choosing them. Is it everyone at the facility using them, just one or two particular shooters, is there a specific drill or exercise they are used for, etc.?

We can guess and speculate and theorize all day long, but at the end of the day all we have is a bunch of guesses, theories, and speculation. Even though a lot of it seems to be thoughtful and honest...and some of it obviously and blatantly biased and dishonest...it doesn't get to any real answers.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

The question has been answered in various forms from not only past medalists, but also Olympic coaches. It is in the FITA forum here at AT. Strand tension has been the underlying theme to some of their responses.


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

LBR, I think the difference in accuracy potential between the two string types is so minute that only at the Olympic distance of 70 meters can you really discern a measureable difference in arrow grouping. At the shorter games like 3D I do not think it makes any difference at all. 

The thing is, most really good shooters in short-range 3D like Matt Potter and Jimmy Blackmon are looking to the top Olympic/FITA shooters as to equipment and style information. So those men tend to use endless strings too - even if they don't really need them for a 20 yard javelina target. You can't have too much accuracy and confidence is everything in archery. I'm sure they at least feel better using an endless string for IBO 3D like Brady Ellison uses for 70 meters.

I like to test gear but have never actually tested for accuracy the difference at 70 meters between an endless string and a Flemish. Probably I could not tell the difference. But I'm sure the best shooters can. This is why they use endless. Everything they do is for a reason at the top level.

For the record I love Flemish strings and the way they look. I'm also in the camp that says they are quieter. But then I've never shot a bow in below zero weather. If I ever shoot anything in below zero weather it will be a gun. That shot you hear in the distance on some cold winter night will be me killing myself should I ever find myself in such weather conditions. LOL I'm a warm weather guy.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Maybe they're ordering the flemish strings just to experiment and see for themselves if one or the other style makes a difference in their shooting or in string lifespan.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Could be EK--that would be my guess--but it's only a guess. I'd like to hear the reason they are ordering Flemish strings straight from the horse's mouth...vs. the other end, as the case may be.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

LBR said:


> Could be EK--that would be my guess--but it's only a guess. I'd like to hear the reason they are ordering Flemish strings straight from the horse's mouth...vs. the other end, as the case may be.




Haa haa, I see what you did there.
LOL, and here I was thinking we were making some progress. 8^)

Honestly EK, I've not asked. The thought to ask has never crossed my mind.
I build the strings as requested, and they pay me for my services.

Rick


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Rick, for the record, that was not directed at you. I haven't seen where you offered an opinion one way or the other. 

This is directed at you--why the secrecy? Why even mention it knowing it would raise questions?

It's like someone claiming to be coaching some top Olympic archers, then running off when pressed for details. It just brings up more questions.


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Not every Oly bow shooter is a good shot or knows a thing about equipment either. Could be they come from the trad community and are only familiar with Flemish strings. One thing I'm completely sure of; I've never seen a Flemish string on any top contender's bow at a FITA or Field shoot. And I really look at other people's gear to try and learn anything I can.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

If I read it right, they were for an Olympic training facility. I may be wrong, but I think that for it to be designated as such there would be some competent coaching going on there. I realize that pretty much anyone can call themselves an Olympic (style) shooter, or even refer to themselves as a coach for Olympians in training, but I figure they would get tossed out on their ear if they tried to walk out on the training floor of said facility.

Fortunately for me, I have a few connections here and there. I may be able to track it down in spite of it being top secret.


----------



## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

I shoot both kinds...I use an endless loop on the Oly rig, and a flemish twist on the flat board bow.
Hard to say which one is better, but I think the flemish twist gives a better shock absorbing to the limb tips on the board bow.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Chad, I actually never intended to mention it.
I shared in private (in confidence) with someone that I was building flemish strings for an Oly training facility.
My confidence was betrayed, and the subject was brought into the public forum.

Now that it has been made public I won't hide from it. 
I'll tell you & everyone else - I don't/won't say who the Oly folks are out of respect for them. 
There are to many here who would become a pain in their butts if I shared the names.

Rick


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

If Simons feels a need to be in?...I'm out...and my apologies to all for causing such a fuss...just had some legit observations and ponderings I was looking for answers to and never got them...as it seems folks know the top oly guys prefer endless loop over Flemish but nobody truly seems to have a solid answer of why. 

Thanks for the responses and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## longbow billy (May 19, 2008)

OTC personnel ordering Flemish strings . Next thing ya know pigs will fly! I love the entertainment , but somebody needs to stop telling big fibs ! LMAO that's a good one!


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Bill, I believe the preference of endless loop is simply due to the ease in which the endless loops strings can be duplicated.
It isn't quite as easy to build two identical flemish twist strings, although it can be done.

You might say - the preference is rooted in convenience.

Of course, I need to be sure to say - that's just my opinion.

Rick


----------



## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> If Simons feels a need to be in?...I'm out...and my apologies to all for causing such a fuss...just had some legit observations and ponderings I was looking for answers to and never got them...as it seems folks know the top oly guys prefer endless loop over Flemish but nobody truly seems to have a solid answer of why.
> 
> Thanks for the responses and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


Deleted posts have been returned. Time for me to go hunting. 
Good day to all,
Simon


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

President Regan said it best: "Trust, but verify".


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> ...as it seems folks know the top oly guys prefer endless loop over Flemish but nobody truly seems to have a solid answer of why.
> 
> Thanks for the responses and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


Again, did you plug in "flemish"over in the FITA forum? That's where they post, and there are several reasons given. That's as solid an answer of "why" "they" do it as you are going to get. Consistency, stability, and speed are some top reasons given.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Again, did you plug in "flemish"over in the FITA forum? That's where they post, and there are several reasons given. That's as solid an answer of "why" "they" do it as you are going to get. Consistency, stability, and speed are some top reasons given.


Sanford?...you win....you are a much better searcher than I...I did what you suggested and got a mish-mosh of threads to choose from...of opinion based banter...with no "prove it" filter available on the searches so?...I guess I'm left taking folks word for it...so it's cool...I'm over it...I'll just continue to happily shoot my flem string on my target rig...I'm not that good a shot that I'd notice any difs other than the flem is softer on the bow and quieter on my ears so...thanks man and L8R, Bill.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Sanford?...you win....you are a much better searcher than I...I did what you suggested and got a mish-mosh of threads to choose from...of opinion based banter...with no "prove it" filter available on the searches so?...I guess I'm left taking folks word for it...so it's cool...I'm over it...I'll just continue to happily shoot my flem string on my target rig...I'm not that good a shot that I'd notice any difs other than the flem is softer on the bow and quieter on my ears so...thanks man and L8R, Bill.


Jinks, there was nothing to prove. The rationale for top level shooters using endless over flemish was given by some well known Oly archers and coaches. That's the question. I don't think anyone tries to much "prove" anything over there. At that level, you either have worked it out for yourself or you not, right or wrong. If you have not, you are asking to learn, not asking for proof.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I want to know why an Olympic facillity would order flemish strings. I've seen all the banter about why endless is supposed to be better...lots of banter, no proof other than endless is easier to replicate from one maker to the next, or at least that's the assumption. If the personalities and honesty levels vary as much on that forum as they do on this one, then doing a search would mean squat since I don't know which of them are to be trusted and which are not. At least I have a pretty good idea here.

As a side note, hey LBB! Hope you stick around!

Chad


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> If the personalities and honesty levels vary as much on that forum as they do on this one, then doing a search would mean squat since I don't know which of them are to be trusted and which are not. Chad


That gets back to knowing it for yourself, first. Then, you know and can "verify". If someone told me that a "properly" built AMO spec endless was to be pre-twisted like a flemish, then, I would know how much to trust their advice over some Oly coach/shooter telling me that once twisted and pre-stretched, there's a possibility of a stability issue, negating the pre-stretch on untwisted stranding per AMO. But then, for the first guy telling me, he may not build strings up to par of what the Oly guy thinks is required, so in each their own worlds they are both OK on advice, if you look at it that way.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

A lack of reading comprehension on one person's part does not equal dishonesty or even a lack of knowledge on the other person's part. Somewhat like continually insisting that the reason endless is preferred by Olympic archers is answered on the FITA forum, when that wasn't the question asked to begin with. Capisce?

Now, that the little side-tracking job is done with...

Does anyone have anything of substance to add? Ever seen or hear of a top level Olympic or FITA shooter using flemish over endless? 

Curiosity is killing me. There's bound to be a reason or purpose for such.


----------



## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

Jinks, I think what you will find is that an endless loop string is like someone said before, it can be duplicated much easier for backup, and they are lighter in weight which can make for quicker bow. I think they lay against the limb better than a flemish, and lay more consistently against the limb with less chance of a some what bulky flemish end from twisting or turning to a different position. And, if they are built correctly with modern materials I believe they ( endless loop) might settle in without much chance of stretching, at least less chance than a flemish. It may not be much, but to an oly shooter it wouldn't take much to throw his or her game off at 70 or 90 meters so why take the chance with a flemish. No written facts, just my thoughts and experience. I know my endless loop strings don't move when I'm done with them, but over time I have seen my flemish move just a tiny bit. Just my thoughts Jinks. Gapmaster


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, there was nothing to prove. The rationale for top level shooters using endless over flemish was given by some well known Oly archers and coaches. That's the question. I don't think anyone tries to much "prove" anything over there. At that level, you either have worked it out for yourself or you not, right or wrong. If you have not, you are asking to learn, not asking for proof.


Sanford...just so we can keep this level headed...I basically asked for thoughts and opinions based on my thoughts and observations...mostly surrounding the string groove engagement differences between the two and the remote possibility that in some instances Flemish twist may/could be a better option....and it went from there too a...

"Well all the Top Olympians use/prefer endless loop so it must be better."

mentality...but when reasons are given such as the EL strings are faster, more consistent and/or more stabile...is it wrong of me to then question the folks making these statements how they came to those conclusions?...or is this one of those instances where the old clich'e....

"The Proof Is In The Pudding"

came from and nobody wants to make a mess digging through the pudding to actually find it?

Cause here's where I'm at with it...with all the recent advances made in the procurement of the latest greatest string materials out there lately?...is it possible at all that the old school logic amidst Olympic archers that EL strings are better in such ways has been put to sleep so to speak?...and does the possibility exist that a well made and extremely well matched flem string made of rhino or 8190 may preform just as well or maybe even better and all while being easier on the bows limbs these days?...who can answer that?...and with something more substantial than the age old opinion and mentality of Olympians that are quite possibly missing a great ride on a new boat by being set like stone in their long accepted ways.

Flemish offerings have come a long ways...they are no longer the low preforming Dacron slip-knot ropes they once were...so I'd be very interested to know if anyone has done some up to date testing "RE-COMPARING" the two so to speak.

And it's cool Sanford...it's just stuff I'm wondering about...and sure would explain why it seems there's at least one oly customer in the world who requested Flemish strings.

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I do have a string question now that we have a couple of experienced makers in this thread. I make my own flemish strings and like them because I can easily adjust my brace heights for various reasons, put homemade woolie silencers in them easily and wrap my loop tags with wool to quiet them down. Are endless loop strings designed to be twisted up and down for adjusting brace height like a flemish twist string? I should know this from being in archery since 1955 but I don't and haven't had any exposure to them since I shot a '66 Tamerlane back then.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gapmaster said:


> Jinks, I think what you will find is that an endless loop string is like someone said before, it can be duplicated much easier for backup, and they are lighter in weight which can make for quicker bow. I think they lay against the limb better than a flemish, and lay more consistently against the limb with less chance of a some what bulky flemish end from twisting or turning to a different position. And, if they are built correctly with modern materials I believe they ( endless loop) might settle in without much chance of stretching, at least less chance than a flemish. It may not be much, but to an oly shooter it wouldn't take much to throw his or her game off at 70 or 90 meters so why take the chance with a flemish. No written facts, just my thoughts and experience. I know my endless loop strings don't move when I'm done with them, but over time I have seen my flemish move just a tiny bit. Just my thoughts Jinks. Gapmaster


GM...see...making the statement that an endless loop registers in the string grooves better?...is exactly what I'm questioning here because yes...when initially making BH adjustments?...it doesn't...but once the braids of the flem ends mold themselves to those string grooves?...(which they do within a few shots)...they mold themselves in perfect alignment with the grooves...where the tight hard served EL strings are not doing any such thing...and I think attempting to say that EL strings are lighter?...can be extremely subjective...here's a pic of my 14strand angel majesty EL string that was for my 66" excel...










nows here's a pic of my 12 strand rhino Flemish string for my 64" Bushmen longbow...










both set up exactly the same way.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

You can twist an endless up to shorten it, but they don't seem to accept twist as well as a flemish--at least not as much. Letting twist out depends on whether or not it had any to begin with. Some folks feel an endless should have zero twists in it, so obviously that wouldn't allow for letting any out.

Chad


----------



## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

Ya, but comparing same material to same material the EL is lighter. At least mine are. I add 18 inches of material to my flemish for the braids, sometimes 20 inches. And I'll make that clear, that's what I do. Maybe someone else out there makes theirs different. But my EL's are lighter when using the same material, especially if I use the tag ends to serve with instead of say 3D or 62XS. Anyway, just trying to give you points of view.


----------



## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> *ANNNNnnnnnDddddd THEY'RE OFF!.....*
> 
> Annnnnd....Barbee Boy Comes Out Of he Gate Early with a slight lead on LongBowRules but LongBowRules is hot On The Hooves of Barbee Boy in a REEEElentless rush too the back straight!....And It's Barbee Boy by a Nose as they enter the back straight!...
> 
> ...


And for this response I dub you a troll... or at the least an instigator.


----------



## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> is it possible at all that the old school logic amidst Olympic archers


You're saying that people who are at the top of their game are somehow behind and not up to date on what's out there?


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Gapmaster said:


> Jinks, I think what you will find is that an endless loop string is like someone said before, it can be duplicated much easier for backup, and they are lighter in weight which can make for quicker bow. I think they lay against the limb better than a flemish, and lay more consistently against the limb with less chance of a some what bulky flemish end from twisting or turning to a different position. And, if they are built correctly with modern materials I believe they ( endless loop) might settle in without much chance of stretching, at least less chance than a flemish. It may not be much, but to an oly shooter it wouldn't take much to throw his or her game off at 70 or 90 meters so why take the chance with a flemish. No written facts, just my thoughts and experience. I know my endless loop strings don't move when I'm done with them, but over time I have seen my flemish move just a tiny bit. Just my thoughts Jinks. Gapmaster


Best answer so far. I think I agree. One thing is for certain - Flemish are not used by Olympic shooters. They must have a reason to shoot endless and Gapmaster is probably correct.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Maybe they're ordering flemish strings to go on their "recreational" bows, kind of like some of us use them just because they look nice and seem to go with wood bows.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Endless does seem to settle in a bit faster, but regardless...

I'm curious to know why one particular Olympic training center is ordering Flemish strings. Could be as simple as what EK said--I'd sure like to find out either way.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Chad 

I speak with Jake Kaminski pretty often and just today while at LAS we were texting back and forth

We supply him with all his supplements currently 

I will ask him this coming week his opinion if anyone is interested


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

LBR said:


> I'm curious to know why one particular Olympic training center is ordering Flemish strings.


At the elite level everything (to a point) gets examined and all it would take is a thought that it might provide and benefit/advantage. Could be used for a training aid or even psychological too.

Regardless, would be very interesting to find out but you might run into a wall...


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Joe, I would very much appreciate that! I haven't had a chance to run down anyone yet.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Btw, why was sharp banned this time?


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Destroyer said:


> Btw, why was sharp banned this time?



Post #44 maybe. Not exactly subtle.


----------



## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

You can't question The Internet Icons or your membership is at risk.I just got back from hunting camp it looks like a long dead topic was once again resurrected for who knows why other than to start an argument.Looks like I missed a lot of editing deleting and moderating but apparently OSB was the sacrificial lamb.Should make some happy now.


----------



## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

4nolz said:


> You can't question The Internet Icons or your membership is at risk.I just got back from hunting camp it looks like a long dead topic was once again resurrected for who knows why other than to start an argument.Looks like I missed a lot of editing deleting and moderating but apparently OSB was the sacrificial lamb.Should make some happy now.



As usual. I bet that was a real surprise.:wink:


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

4nolz said:


> You can't question The Internet Icons or your membership is at risk.I just got back from hunting camp it looks like a long dead topic was once again resurrected for who knows why other than to start an argument.Looks like I missed a lot of editing deleting and moderating but apparently OSB was the sacrificial lamb.Should make some happy now.


You're not kidding. Entire threads are disappearing. Some people might be glad to hear this but I only make "short" posts from now on. It's a shame to go through all that work typing only to have it all disappear.

Edit: I sure wish I lived someplace where there was a hunting season open so I could go to "hunting camp".


----------



## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Not this weekend it was brutally hot I did kill a boar with my Bear red stripe takedown though.

As to topic-I do not know the reason but did notice the new Bears come with Flemish strings now instead of the endless loops they used to come with.


----------



## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

4nolz said:


> You can't question The Internet Icons or your membership is at risk.I just got back from hunting camp it looks like a long dead topic was once again resurrected for who knows why other than to start an argument.Looks like I missed a lot of editing deleting and moderating but apparently OSB was the sacrificial lamb.Should make some happy now.


Ken... like him or hate him or like to hate him... and at times I hate liking him... if that post got him banned then that's sad... he was pretty dead on.


----------



## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

I respect his opinions but I told him once I wish'd he 'd wear a shock collar and I had the controller...


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Destroyer said:


> They look nice. :wink:


That's my main selling point  It's not without value, after all!

Some say they're quieter, maybe they are...

However, I've never seen one not settle into the string groove, at least so long as the limbs were at least somewhat close to straight. If they didn't, I'd suggest not shooting the bow.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, individual strand tension can be evenly built into and maintained better in an endless, that is, if that's important to you. For some shooters, that aspect is important. The real world, us, none probably.


On the flip side, because of the huge amount of twisting, it seems (at least to me), that flemish twist strings are a whole lot more tolerant of slightly uneven string tension in the construction prior to the pre-stretch. Granted, you try to keep everything as even as possible when you build them anyway, but if you look at how much human intervention goes into the end loop twisting process, non-perfection is almost guaranteed. HOWEVER, since there is SO much slack in the loops before the pre-stretch, and much of the pre-stretch (and shooting in), is the strands getting seated into the wax, the shorter strands will take a more aggressive pull toward the shorter paths, and things often even out, more more than you'd think. That's not to say that you can be all sloppy and expect the nature of the construction to simply cover your butt, but if you pay attention to doing consistent twistin, check very once in awhile to keep your bundles even, and do very subtle compensation on the twisting, (or even untwist to back up, and retwist to try to even it up), the end product seems to come out really nicely, and the performance isn't that far off from an endless loop, if it is at all.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sorry if somebody already addressed this...

Regarding BH change versus number of twists....

Until a string becomes fairly twisted (about 2" per twist, or less, or 1/2 twist per inch if you look at it the other way), the length doesn't change much with string rotation. As you twist more and more, you'll get more change per twist. If the string was delivered not so twisted, you can twist it a bit and it won't really change much. After a few twists though, it will need less and less twist per BH correction. This may also make it seem like it creeps less and less, because you need to put in less twists per time period, but you're really simply making larger increment changes per twist. 

I believe, based on looking at the strings and playing with them, the the end loops themselves tend to change length a LOT more, proportionally, than the rest of the string, given the amount of twisting put into them. So, it may be that when you passed a certain threshold on the flemish twist string, it exhibits this behavior more dramatically than an endless loop, though this is purely conjecture on my part.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

4nolz said:


> Not this weekend it was brutally hot I did kill a boar with my Bear red stripe takedown though.


Anything but cold is ok with me...and I sure wish we had some pigs to kill.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> That's my main selling point  It's not without value, after all!


Exactly. How many times will we choose one bow over another based just on looks?


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> individual strand tension can be evenly built into *and maintained better *


How do you maintain individual strand tension in a string? The first part is pure conjecture--you can build either one right, you can get the individual stand tension off on either one--but once it's built, it's built.

It's no skin off my back one way or the other. I know how to build both, and I have enough experienced archers that will speak up for me that I'm not worried about a shill with a chip on their shoulder. 

I do like to keep learning though. Going to keep digging on this one.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

I talked to my Oly guy about 4 this afternoon.

He said - properly built one string has no advantage over the other where tuning, stability, and accuracy are concerned.
He said - flemish strings are quieter.
He said - the preference to endless loop among the OLY folk has more to do with availability than anything else.

Rick


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> How do you maintain individual strand tension in a string? The first part is pure conjecture--you can build either one right, you can get the individual stand tension off on either one--but once it's built, it's built.
> 
> It's no skin off my back one way or the other. I know how to build both, and I have enough experienced archers that will speak up for me that I'm not worried about a shill with a chip on their shoulder.
> 
> I do like to keep learning though. Going to keep digging on this one.


LBR, when you understand why AMO states the pre-stretch and measure is done on an untwisted bundle of stranding, you will then understand endless loop better. Apparently, you do care or are worried about something, but again, I would say, that as long as you and your customers are OK with it, it's fine. You do not have to subscribe to the standards of others.


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

grapplemonkey said:


> Ken... like him or hate him or like to hate him... and at times I hate liking him... if that post got him banned then that's sad... he was pretty dead on.


Give the guy credit he steps up to the line competes and hunts. He's not a keyboard warrior he actually does what he professes. 

Mat


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> LBR, when you understand why AMO states the pre-stretch and measure is done on an untwisted bundle of stranding, you will then understand endless loop better.


Lol--still don't know where you got that rot, but it doesn't become any less of a lie the more you repeat it.

I was being facetious--I know there's no way you "maintain individual strand tension" after you make a string. I was just wondering if you would step up and admit you misspoke--like this nugget of literary genius



> an untwisted bundle of stranding


. 

What the heck is an "untwisted bundle of stranding"???? Is that an AMO term? lol

Anyway, your retort didn't surprise me in the least. 




> Give the guy credit he steps up to the line competes and hunts. He's not a keyboard warrior he actually does what he professes.


He may raise a stink here and there, but you got to give him that. I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but he's gone a lot further in competitive archery than I have, and a lot further than most of the self-proclaimed "experts" on here ever will.

Rick, thanks for the follow-up. I'm still curious to hear what others would say, but that is a start.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Give the guy credit he steps up to the line competes and hunts. He's not a keyboard warrior he actually does what he professes.
> 
> Mat


I neither love him or hate him but he is a good shot and a good hunter so kudos for that. Maybe a bit more balanced outlook would help sometimes though.


----------



## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

More balanced=do not disagree with the wrong people?


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Give the guy credit he steps up to the line competes and hunts. He's not a keyboard warrior he actually does what he professes.
> 
> Mat



I agree Ken walks the walk and I will miss him. He has earned my respect 

I hope its not permanent


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

LBR said:


> Lol--still don't know where you got that rot, but it doesn't become any less of a lie the more you repeat it.


Doesn't matter how you say exactly it but anyway http://peteward.com/AMOStandards.pdf



> Bowstring/cable length shall be designated by placing the string/cable loops over
> 1/4” (6.4mm) diameter steel pins. *Zero (0) turns of twist are to be inserted in the
> bowstring/cable before tension loading*. Flemish splice strings are exempt from
> twist limitations. Standard tension loads are listed below. Length measurements
> ...


Could be the answer if you are fair...





4nolz said:


> More balanced=*do not disagree with the wrong people*?


I'm not sure that it what he meant but its right on the money for this forum. I think one of Sharps issue is how he answers questions, he does sometimes in a very defensive manner. Anxiety could be an factor.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Availability? Interesting. I know that at UC Berkeley the Collegiate Team shooters make their own strings. Endless. They have a resident "string guy" Professor Lieu. I wouldn't go so far as to claim its "universal" but I would think that any serious FITA or Oly shooting team makes their own strings.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Bender said:


> Availability? Interesting.


:wink:


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> What the heck is an "untwisted bundle of stranding"???? Is that an AMO term? lol


You mean, what's a bundle? A group of things like string strands in a loop: 

Webster (English Language) 

: a group of things that are fastened, tied, or wrapped together

: a group of things that are together or are associated with each other in some way

Come on, let's have some serious discussion. This deflection stuff, away from your stating flemish and endless are built the same concerning twisting, no different, would only serve to confuse others.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Destroyer, the rot isn't AMO specs. I am familiar with them--I have it saved on my computer and at least one copy printed off in my shop. The rot is accusing me of not understanding AMO specs, and implying I said something I didn't. That was just a pitiful attempt at trying to deflect attention from a ridiculous statement, i.e. "...individual strand tension can be evenly built into *and maintained better *in an endless...".

You don't maintain individual strand tension in a finished string. It is what it is when you get done building it. It was a silly statement, obviously he misspoke, but rather than just admit that he tries to pin some foolish statement on me. To add to the hilarity, he continues with "...AMO states the pre-stretch and measure is done on an *untwisted bundle of stranding*...". AMO specs make no such debacle of the English language--how ironic that it came out when he was falsely trying to pin something foolish on me. 

I do and say enough foolish things by accident. I really don't need someone making things up to add to it.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that LBR is very familiar with those standards for measuring finished string length. But lets not get confused here. Those standards are for measuring the length of a finished string, ready to be sold. This shouldn't be confused with "pre-stretch." That is where a string, PRIOR to being ready to be sold, is heavily loaded in order to, as best as possible, equalize the strands, squeeze out excess string making wax, and pull out any material creep (permanent elongation.) I have also found its good for Flemish because it binds the twists in the end loops quite nicely. There don't seem to be any standards for pre-stretch procedures. But loading 300# on a string appears to be a "standard" in the compound world. So in order to do it "properly" one would pre-stretch a string however they see fit, then reload the string according to that AMO standard in order to measure actual "finished" string length.

Personally build all my own strings and I pre-stretch my strings to 220#. Why that particular weight? ......Because that's how much I weigh.


----------



## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

4nolz said:


> More balanced=do not disagree with the wrong people?


More balance would mean your shock collar idea would let us take part and have a traveling remote sign up. I'll accept Ken as is... his entertainment value will never go down.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

LBR said:


> he continues with "...AMO states the pre-stretch and measure is done on an *untwisted bundle of stranding*...". AMO specs make no such debacle of the English language--how ironic that it came out when he was falsely trying to pin something foolish on me. .


Pre-stretch = tension load???

example:



> All other strings and cables for compound and non compound bows are to be measured under 100 +- 1 pound (45.4 kilograms) of *tension load*.





Bender said:


> Personally build all my own strings and I pre-stretch my strings to 220#. Why that particular weight? ......Because that's how much I weigh.


:thumbs_up


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bender said:


> I'm pretty sure that LBR is very familiar with those standards for measuring finished string length. But lets not get confused here. Those standards are for measuring the length of a finished string, ready to be sold. This shouldn't be confused with "pre-stretch." That is where a string, PRIOR to being ready to be sold, is heavily loaded in order to, as best as possible, equalize the strands, squeeze out excess string making wax, and pull out any material creep (permanent elongation.) I have also found its good for Flemish because it binds the twists in the end loops quite nicely. There don't seem to be any standards for pre-stretch procedures. But loading 300# on a string appears to be a "standard" in the compound world. So in order to do it "properly" one would pre-stretch a string however they see fit, then reload the string according to that AMO standard in order to measure actual "finished" string length.
> 
> Personally build all my own strings and I pre-stretch my strings to 220#. Why that particular weight? ......Because that's how much I weigh.


Great post, and I know for fact that endless he ships has -0- twists before or after assembly, so the real discussion just goes to another discussion, which btw, was about final string length.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks Bender, but I'm learning some great stuff here! 

For instance, I'd never heard the (AMO) term "untwisted bundle of stranding", and I certainly never would have figured out it was just a more eloquent way of saying "bundle". And did you know you that with an endless string "individual strand tension can be evenly built into and maintained better"? I didn't know you could do maintenance on the strand tension of a finished string, endless or Flemish! Of course I haven't learned just how you do that yet--guess that will be in the next "lesson".

Wow...someone should write a book to share all this knowledge! I feel like I should be paying for everything I've learned today! Gosh, I sure hope all those people I've been making strings for over the last 20 or so years don't find out how ignorant I am about how strings are REALLY made! Dang...as soon as I find out how you maintain individual strand tension in a finished string, I'll have to do another video! Reckon 3 Rivers will sponsor this one too? I bet if I could get THE string guru to play the lead role in it they would be jumping at the opportunity......ROTF.........


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> I know for fact that endless he ships has -0- twists before or after assembly,


What in the world are you talking about?


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Destroyer, there's a difference between pre-stretch and measuring under tension. 300# is the max you want to use to pre-stretch. After that, you let the string "rest" for a bit to retract, then get a final measurement under 100# of "tension".


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Does Rick McKinney still post here? He might be able to offer some insight to the original topic.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

4nolz said:


> More balanced=do not disagree with the wrong people?


No, I mean seeing both sides of an argument not just your own version of facts.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

And when you do all that with twisted, the inner and outer strands of the bundle are under different loading.



LBR said:


> Destroyer, there's a difference between pre-stretch and measuring under tension. 300# is the max you want to use to pre-stretch. After that, you let the string "rest" for a bit to retract, then get a final measurement under 100# of "tension".


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> And when you do all that with twisted strands, the inner and outer strads of the bundle are under different loading.


And that has what to do with anything?


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Good. The original topic. One reason top Only shooters feel endless are superior. All stands were equally loaded and stretched. 



LBR said:


> And that has what to do with anything?


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Good. The original topic. One reason top Only shooters feel endless are superior. All stands were equally loaded and stretched.


Except that never was the original topic. That was a question that wasn't asked that you kept trying to answer. It's not even what the topic turned into. Has nothing to do with it. 

Why did you quote me when you said it anyhow? Had nothing to do with anything I said.

And, quite honestly, I'd need to hear that from a top Olympic shooter. Way too much "because I said so" on this board, with little to no verification.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> Except that never was the original topic. That was a question that wasn't asked that you kept trying to answer. It's not even what the topic turned into. Has nothing to do with it.


If I misread into Jink's topic, my apologies to him, but I think my responses were within his topic. Maybe you thought he was propagating a debate on Mr. Barbee. Who knows, but I know Jinks later backed up my thinking when he was dropping it with...



> just had some legit observations and ponderings *I was looking for answers to and never got them...as it seems folks know the top oly guys prefer endless loop over Flemish but nobody truly seems to have a solid answer of why*.


Sorry Jinks if I misinterpreted your original intent.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Bender said:


> Availability? Interesting. I know that at UC Berkeley the Collegiate Team shooters make their own strings. Endless. They have a resident "string guy" Professor Lieu. I wouldn't go so far as to claim its "universal" but I would think that any serious FITA or Oly shooting team makes their own strings.


Yep, and they build endless, because endless is easier & faster, thus making it more available.

Rick


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi guys 

Just got off he phone with Jake Kaminski 

At this point he has never seen a person using a Flemish string in competition 

He is using 8190 from BCY and his strings come from Viscosity Bowstrings 

He feels that a Flemish string would not hold up to long for him


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks Joe--one more piece in the puzzle....

From what I can gather, 8190 is quickly becoming the material of choice. Did he happen to mention how many strands in his string?


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Just got off he phone with Jake Kaminski
> 
> ...


I've never seen one used in competition either. I've never been to the Olympics  but even on a smaller national level I've never seen one used.

I do find it odd Jake would say he didn't think a Flemish would "hold up too long" for him. If anything, I've always found Flemish strings more durable than endless with those thick end loops.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

JParanee said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Just got off he phone with Jake Kaminski
> 
> ...


Hey Joe. Thanks for the follow up, but I've got to ask you to do some follow up on the follow up regarding his last statement to you.
I'd really like to know what he bases that feeling on.

Rick


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Beat you by one minute Rich. I found that statement odd too.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bender said:


> Personally build all my own strings and I pre-stretch my strings to 220#. Why that particular weight? ......Because that's how much I weigh.


I used to simply hang on the strings, about 185# at the time, put a dumbell through the large loop, and used it as a handle.. Then I put a hook into a 2x4, and made myself a swing seat, so I could sit on it. Then I started trying to stand on that, and military press the beam that the top hook was built into. Before I killed myself doing that (it's kind of a trick to get onto the 2x4, balance yourself, etc), I just broke down and built a string stretcher, crank it tight, lean on the string, do it again, until it stops getting looser after I lean on it. I don't know what the tension is, but it's more than me, and more than sitting on the bow.

However, there doesn't seem to be any substitute for a little time as well. If I leave it on the bow after the pre-stretch, it will invariably give just a wee bit more, and squeeze out a little bit more wax with it... Oh, I made a video! I will try to share soon!


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Good. The original topic. One reason top Only shooters feel endless are superior. All stands were equally loaded and stretched.


Well, I was thinking about this... Maybe they are... but maybe not.

You can have a string that, when on the string jig, untwisted, all strands are equally loaded, and stretched. However, as soon as you twist it up, this inherent equality between strands goes the same way as the Flemish twist, in that the strands are going to 'fight' their way amongst each other, through each other, and the wax, for the shortest path they can get, and you get a balancing act.

Ever try to get a single strand to show up all the way down a string? If it's truly equal length and tension to start with, once you twist it, it ain't gonna happen. _Somebody's_ got to go into the center of the string _all_ of the time, and if you want to keep the paths even, _everybody_ has to dip in there at least once. Now, you can twist it, then pull it out by running a 'floss' piece down the string, but in doing so, you're pulling it to the outside, and making it's path longer than the others, and it will get more load than the others.

Granted, I think an endless loop is far easier to build consistently, sure. They also take far less skill and practice, in my opinion, to turn out reasonably well, from the standpoint of finish, cosmetics, and... consistency.

Still, I don't think there's anything wrong with a Flemish twist. It just has different properties. I've certainly never felt that I would have shot any better using an endless loop when I was using a Flemish Twist, or the other way around.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

You are right Barney--I didn't seen any point in trying to make corrections after I was told you can adjust individual strand tension after the string is completed.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

LBR said:


> Thanks Joe--one more piece in the puzzle....
> 
> From what I can gather, 8190 is quickly becoming the material of choice. Did he happen to mention how many strands in his string?


No but ill ask him when we speak again


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> I've never seen one used in competition either. I've never been to the Olympics  but even on a smaller national level I've never seen one used.
> 
> I do find it odd Jake would say he didn't think a Flemish would "hold up too long" for him. If anything, I've always found Flemish strings more durable than endless with those thick end loops.


Stone 

I also thought it odd because I use Flemish strings  

Honestly we were speaking of a photo shoot and things to do with supplements and I brought the Flemish string thing up at the close of he conversation 

So it was brief and I did not follow up with any questions on his comment 

Next time we speak I will inquire thou


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Rick Barbee said:


> Hey Joe. Thanks for the follow up, but I've got to ask you to do some follow up on the follow up regarding his last statement to you.
> I'd really like to know what he bases that feeling on.
> 
> Rick



Rick I will inquire 

I to am curious but it was a quick conversation and we both had to go so it was brief


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Give the guy credit he steps up to the line competes and hunts. He's not a keyboard warrior he actually does what he professes.
> 
> Mat


I agree completely.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Barney that is basically what I do too, got some hooks, made some rope loops, step up into the rope loop and hang there. However that is all I do. I don't seek to load more than my own like you were working towards, simply as a matter of consistency and predictability.

I've seen those AMO standards before of course, and I just realized something odd. The standards call for ZERO twists (Flemish excepted) to be in the string when it is measured. HOWEVER, even an endless should have at least some twists in it when it is put into use, shouldn't it? I always put a few in. And besides, think of other ropes, strings, cables, they are all twisted or braided to some degree or another in order to bind the strands together, increase strength and equalize load carrying. Odd.

As for building an endless, it takes me nearly twice as long as it does to build a Flemish.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Barney, of course you will add twist after the string is completed. And stretch and shoot it in. It's never been about that as it's been about difference in the building. I know LBR has cut and paste and changed direction to what's never been the subject anyway but just enough to confuse what he and I were previously discussing, but as to equal tension in the build and minute differences in strands, equal is better going up. I think he agrees when he updated his website per our discussion on this over differences in string colors. 

Here's where he now explains on his website: 

_"Because there can be *subtle differences* in one spool of material to the next, or between colors. With a two bundle string, there is *less chance of getting a different amount of tension on the bundles*. 'Course the large majority of us (myself included) can't shoot well enough to tell the difference, unless the bundle tension is really skewed...but some people can." 
_
Wonder what different amount of tension he's talking about? Bundle tension???? What's that got to do with a subtle difference in the strands if, in the end, it is twisted into a unified mass of string? If differences in batch and color can affect the integrity for some of the more advanced shooters he knows, why is it odd that Oly shooters might want the same uniformity? 

Again, starting with even tensioned strands ensures less "subtle differences" to start with. 

The one thing agreed upon is that it won't matter enough one way or the other to me either.


----------



## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Bender said:


> I've seen those AMO standards before of course, and I just realized something odd. The standards call for ZERO twists (Flemish excepted) to be in the string when it is measured


Consistency. What will twists do the the string? (length/stretch/tension?). Think about how you get the correct final length. The length varies (somewhat) so the amount of twists needed with vary and then... :wink:



Bender said:


> HOWEVER, even an endless should have at least some twists in it when it is put into use, shouldn't it?


Yep and for more reasons than length. Reduces some noise, increases resistance to wear and cutting, etc.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bender said:


> I've seen those AMO standards before of course, and I just realized something odd. The standards call for ZERO twists (Flemish excepted) to be in the string when it is measured. HOWEVER, even an endless should have at least some twists in it when it is put into use, shouldn't it? I always put a few in. And besides, think of other ropes, strings, cables, they are all twisted or braided to some degree or another in order to bind the strands together, increase strength and equalize load carrying. Odd.


Bender, I find it equally odd, or at least non-event, but less odd is that the AMO spec seems to closely satisfy the equal strand tension theory. Second runner up would be that if there were twists allowed, how many for a given length? IOW, another standard to err against.


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

The biggest reason endless strings need some twist is for aerodynamics. Strings with no twists at all are subject to "ballooning" when they are shot. This means the apparent wind blows them open when shot. High speed camera shots have proven this. I watched one bit of footage showing the string fibers separating at high speed as much as an inch. When these "blown" strings move forward they are subject to moving off line and causing all kinds of repeatability problems for arrow grouping.

So we introduce twists not only to adjust string length but to keep the string in a compact bundle that cannot fly apart when the apparent wind hits it when shot. The round, twisted bundle tracks through air space evenly and without ballooning or pulling off to one side. A more accurate arrow results.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I understand the "consistency" during the measuring process. It at least ensures that regardless of what the buyer does with the string later, at least when it is sold, it REALLY is 64' long, (or whatever the marked length may be.)

I didn't mentioning the ballooning on purpose. I have heard of it. I can even see that it could happen. I have also heard that there is video footage somewhere showing it. However I myself have never seen that footage. 

So Stone Bridge, for real, not being a jerk here or anything, would you happen to know where video of that can still be found? I really would be legitimately interested in seeing that.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> I think he agrees when he updated his website per our discussion on this over differences in string colors.


The implication that I changed my mind or my site due to something you said is just another of your fantasies. This was covered in my first video, filmed over 7 years ago. Duhhh...


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

The ballooning also causes noise.


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Bender, it was a long time ago I saw the string video. I can't even recall if it was an online tape. But I'll do some Google searching. I'd be surprised if it's not online. Seems everything is these days. Now video aside, I've talked with other Oly shooters about this string issue over the years. All seem to agree. I believe I've even seen Viper make mention of this issue in past threads. It's pretty common knowledge within the target world.

One more related thought on string aerodynamics. You will notice no Olympic shooter ever uses string silencers. The reason being they (the silencers) can never be counted on to travel with the shot in the same way each shot. So they act to steer the string offline in unpredictable ways. Once again you get variations on string return and the havoc that plays with accuracy. 

At hunting distances this matters little. You probably can't measure any affect on accuracy. But at long range you surely can. This is why FITA and Oly shooters don't use them at the extended distances we shoot.


----------



## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

lol... it took over 100+ posts in this thread before someone dropped some common knowledge.


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grapplemonkey said:


> And for this response I dub you a troll... or at the least an instigator.





grapplemonkey said:


> You're saying that people who are at the top of their game are somehow behind and not up to date on what's out there?





grapplemonkey said:


> More balance would mean your shock collar idea would let us take part and have a traveling remote sign up. I'll accept Ken as is... his entertainment value will never go down.





grapplemonkey said:


> lol... it took over 100+ posts in this thread before someone dropped some common knowledge.


and only 4 of them were yours grapplemonkey and I found them so interesting?....(especially your last response)...I just couldn't resist taking a moment to point out your most inspiring contributions to this thread.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

wrong thread...


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Stone Bridge, what you sed about string silencers could be true. wouldn't argue against it based on my own experience. I know though that for competition I don't run silencers simply because I don't want to give up the speed. A couple fps here, a couple over there, and before you know it it adds up. I too will run a search and see if I can find anything.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Bringing this back up.

Really looking forward to hearing more from Joe on Jake.

Speaking of load balancing of the strands - 
Yes it can be done. It is part of the conditioning process you may have seen me mention a time or two.
We don't just stretch our strings, we also condition them. 
We start with processes from the very first working to achieve equalization of the strands & bundles, and repeat those process at several stages of completion throughout the entire process of building them.

Rick


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I would just like to re-iterate...

There's two key reasons I ever bothered even bringing this thread up and they are...

1. Taking note of how the comparatively large, soft braids of a Flemish string can and does seem to form/mold itself into the limbs string grooves (despite how perfectly or imperfectly those groves may or may not be aligned) and strikes the limbs at-the-shot quieter where the tightly wrapped hard serving of endless loop strings don't for/mold themselves to the limbs string grooves and seem to in fact strike those grooves with a noticeably louder note and?...

2. Was left wondering if with the advent of all these high performance string materials being made available today if the Flemish strings were an area that "maybe some" Olympic venue archers felt worth revisiting.

In any event it's readily apparent that a veritable wealth of insightful (and extremely interesting) information is still being brought forth in this thread and I thank all those who have shared such.

Have a great day and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Bender, I could not find any video online about strings ballooning. Sorry I can't recall exactly where I saw the old video but I remember it was of very good quality using a high-speed camera.

The string silencer thing is kinda funny. Like you I don't use them except on my hunting bow. But outside of Olympic or FITA shooting I've seen many archery competitors using string silencers for events of short range like 3D. Some claim to use them as tuning aids. Some simply like a more quiet shot - even for target shooting. I've never understood the need or desire for a quiet target bow but some like the quiet for some reason. Frankly I don't hear my bows when I'm shooting. The exception being a PSE Zone I own. When I shoot that thing folks in the next town over complain.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Rick Barbee said:


> Bringing this back up.
> 
> Really looking forward to hearing more from Joe on Jake.
> 
> ...


Hi Rick 

I just texted Jake and his reply was that a Flemish string in his experience will not last as long.

I don't know why and he did not elaborate 

I would imagine at his level and with the amount of arrows he shoots in a day that he would have the background to know but any further comments from me would be conjecture 

I hope this helps 

I will keep shooting Flemish on my recurves because I like the way they look but on my cam lever bows I shoot endless


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Hi Rick
> 
> I just texted Jake and his reply was that a Flemish string in his experience will not last as long.
> 
> ...


Joe....I mean this in the most light-hearted of ways...and certainly no disrespect to either yourself or Jake but...I'm sitting here chuckling thinking...wait...how old is Jake Kaminski?...so I googled it up...and he's 25...and that's when I really busted a gut thinking...

"I bet there's guys on LW that have had the same Flemish string on their bows longer than Jakes been breathing air!" :laugh:


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Jinks 

Do you have any idea how many arrows a guy like Jake shoots a week 

Jake is pretty smart 

Besides also being a pretty good bow man 

so I would not let his age come into play


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Jinks
> 
> Do you have any idea how many arrows a guy like Jake shoots a week
> 
> ...


I was just looking to share a chuckle with you Joe....so let's flip the script and try looking at it this way...

Do you know how FEW arrows a guy with a 25 year old Flemish string shoots a day?

there...does that work for ya? :laugh:


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Not that many


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Stone, I too have tried silencers for Indoor to get a real short point on. It does work. As for having a quiet competition bow, I believe that for some people it does matter. When my wife was shooting RC (she's compound now due to injury) she had a bow that was loud enough that it bugged her, and she even began to develop a "flinch." Stuck some leather on the limbs under the string contact and she was a lot happier. Me personally I too couldn't care less about bow noise during competition.

Oh, and I couldn't find anything on string ballooning either, but I know I have heard of it.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks Joe.

No offense, but it sounds like he is working from a gut feeling/speculation.

Rick


----------



## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

I find that interesting as well as there was a time when I shot over 100 arrows per day out of my curve for months and never had my Flemish so much as fray. The only strings I have ever broke were 2 endless and both broke at the bottom of the serving on the upper limb. I imagine these guys shoot way more than that but still 600 shots per week for bout six months is nothing to sneeze at.

Dave


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

dave, I shoot every day year round. Living in Florida the weather is never an issue. I even have an indoor work area where I can shoot up to 30 yards when it's raining outside or if it's simply too hot. (never too hot)

Usually I shoot between 60 and 120 arrows in a session. Normally I shoot 100 arrows by actual count. I have a routine that requires 100 shots and that's what I do most of the time. So I know I shoot at least 30,000 arrows a year and more like 35,000. 

In all my years I've only had 2 strings break while shooting. Both were endless strings that let go at the nock end where the string is only at half its strength. This is why I switched to Flemish. I have Flemish strings I've shot over 12,000 shots by actual count. They still looked okay but I do swap them out after 10,000 shots. I don't believe an endless made of DF-97 would last half that amount. But remember I only use DF-97 and have since it first came out. I like it that much. Other materials might be much stronger.

I'm not buying the endless is stronger idea. No matter who says it. I only go by my own findings.


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Guys I don't have a dog in the fight and I am just reporting what I'm told  

I will keep using Flemish because I like the way they look 

But there is a part of me that wonders why no one uses them in Olympic competition. Maybe it's just that it's easier to acquire the endless 

I don't know and to be honest I don't care. I had access to an Olympic archer so I asked 

I will be speaking to Rio this week if you would like I'll ask a compound guy his thoughts also


----------



## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Joe,

Please tell them both good luck on Paris at the World Cup finals.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

OK, found one at least for the record  Not sure what it proves, but he was the top Oly archer for Russia in 2004, Baljinima Tsyrempilov.


----------



## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> and only 4 of them were yours grapplemonkey and I found them so interesting?....(especially your last response)...I just couldn't resist taking a moment to point out your most inspiring contributions to this thread.


I'm on an obvious troll thread... nothing good will come out of it... and if you look at your posts you can verify how it just prolongs the agony of people who are putting up the info you're looking for but don't want to accept it... mull that over since you've obviously have time on your hands.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Being familiar with endless loop strings and making them for more than 20 years, I have no doubt about their ability to remain consistent when built correctly. I also have no doubt in their ability to fail when built incorrectly.

Flemish strings? I have never built one, and after studying on the subject for weeks, I do not plan on starting to make my own. As far as a flemish strings ability to remain consistent, I suspect much of the worry over their stability comes from the fact that until fairly recently flemish strings were made of Dacron almost exclusively. It does not matter how you build a dacron string, it will never rival todays materials.

I have been pounding a lot of arrows daily out of well made flemish strings for the last 6 months, and I am confident enough in them to order one for my new ILF rig. At the rate of 100-120 arrows a day, 7 days a week, it should not take me too long to decide if I need to spin my own endless loop strings or not. 

I hope the answer is "not", because there are too many things I like about flemish strings.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Hey Joe.

There's no fight to have a dog in.
Simply trying to figure out why the preference to the endless loop strings at the Oly level.

My Oly contact told me that (provided the strings are well made) there is ZERO difference in functionality, durability, or stability between the two types, and that endless is simply what they are used to using. The availability of endless loop strings just kind of made them become the standard.

By the way - this Oly fella is 75 years old, and been in archery most of his life, so he has seen a lot. 
I was talking to him the other day about one of the Boy Scout Merit badges he got for building a longbow by hand from scratch.

Now, I'm not trying to suggest my ability in shooting be compared to that of an OLY shooter, so *lets not get confused here*.
What I will say is this - I most likely have as much experience as most OLY folk, and quite a bit more experience than some.
My over 40 years of exposure to archery aside - I shot anywhere from 250 to 400 arrows a day *(every day)* for quite a number of years, and I was doing that shooting with bows which were
near 100# in draw weight at my draw. For the majority of that time I shot flemish strings exclusively. Not only were they flemish strings, they were low strand count flemish strings. *Never broke one*. 

I would think it fair to say - I have tested the limitations of flemish strings to the extremes enough to know that they are not going to fail any sooner than an endless loop will.

Rick


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Joe,
> 
> Please tell them both good luck on Paris at the World Cup finals.


Will do  

Jake sent me this pic today 










We will of course put a dark background in and when Rio gets his in maybe even put them together for an ad 

It's really been fun and interesting working with some top archers. There are a lot of great people in archery and these two gentleman certainly are a. credit to the sport


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Rick Barbee said:


> Hey Joe.
> 
> There's no fight to have a dog in.
> Simply trying to figure out why the preference to the endless loop strings at the Oly level.
> ...


Rick maybe dog in fight was not the best analogy  

What I meant to say is that as a Flemish string shooter myself I'd like to hear they are as durable as any out there

I got my first bow almost 40 years ago and I have only had strings fail on me that have been damaged 

The last to fail on me was an endless loop that was damaged


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Hey Joe.

It must be a real joy to be working with those young fellers.

By the way, I think you're safe to trust you flemish string. 

Thanks for the feedback & follow ups.

Rick


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Rick 

As I am sure you know certain industries draw certain types of folks 

Archers are the best  

I go out to LAS every other week or so and we do samplings 

I usually bring a lovely young lady or two and they mix the samples, which gives me time to just be me and talk hunting and hunting goals, equipment etc. 

I always enjoy it, and I meet some of the nicest people. It doesn't matter what ya shoot or what your particular discipline is as long as your a bowman ya fit in  

I'm truly humbled by the graciousness and wonderful nature of people 

Last time I was there I started talking to a fellow that missed his number being called to work on his bow 2 times, we were so intently speaking 

He ended up showing me some monster bucks that he has killed and invited me to come hunt with him in his honey hole 

Another fellow who was battling some health issues was very interested in some nutrition tips and than we got talking about how to help him quit smoking 

Being a smoker for 28 years I could offer him some advice on quitting 

His wife in the end gave me a big hug as she shed a tear and said good bye and thanked me for pushing her husband in a healthier direction 

Tammy my side kick at the tastings even wiped her eyes she could see how important it was to the woman that her husband stuck around 

People's compassion in person, not on the forums always humbles me 

Tammy 










BTW John Wert has generously taken Tammy under his wing and is helping her with her form  

I enjoy talking to the target guys like Rio And Jake and I also really love talking to the hunters who I share a back ground with 

Jeff Vickers of Brandywine Archery just sent me this shot as his group was packing out an Elk 










Waiting for a full report and I will post on their hunt 

As much as I like my day job I really love the archery community and being part of it


----------

