# I don't get it!



## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I am the Tournament VP for our State NFAA Affiliate. We put on the State NFAA Indoor Championship this past weekend and the attendance was just miserable. Only 22 archers showed up, in the middle of the 5th largest metro area in the US (according to the Chamber of Commerce). Of those 22, three were guests and not eligible to win anything. This is the lowest attendance I've seen in the 4 years I've been involved in putting these on.

To add salt to the wound, at my league shoot Tuesday night a winter visitor told me he had just heard from home (Wyoming) and they had 71 shooters for their state indoor championship.

The state with the fastest growing population can only interest 22 archers for an indoor championship, held right in the middle of the state I might add, yet the state with the smallest population more than triples that attendance for the same kind of event.

As the title says...I just don't get it!

Dave Twigg
ABFAA Tournament VP


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## Ode1891 (Aug 30, 2006)

I have been a member of a local archery club and I'm just this year joining the State Org and NFAA. I never had time or the desire to shoot a lot of formal target archery in the past. This year I plan to shoot both indoor and field. We have the same attendance issues here. It could be a little better with more advertising, but that won’t fix it. It’s our culture.

It seems strange that bow hunting is so popular, but club membership and attendance is so low. By joining a club and participating, you get a great education and have fun doing it. People who golf pay lots of money for lessons, and spend entire vacations golfing. I guess most people just want to get good enough with a bow to shoot a deer at 20 yards. ??? The other issue is how busy people stay nowadays. If a person isn't running from sun up to dark and eating on the run, they don't feel fulfilled. Kids are in a zillion activities, and single income families are almost extinct. Weekends are spent on soccer fields and karate classes and grocery shopping etc…. Few people have lifestyles that allow them to spend a half day at a field shoot or an evening shooting indoor. Most of it looks like a self imposed crisis to me, but that’s our culture today.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Where was the promotion and results published?
What did you do to make the shoot the greatest state indoor ever?


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## Man-n-Pink (Nov 7, 2006)

:dontknow:


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Ode1891 said:


> I have been a member of a local archery club and I'm just this year joining the State Org and NFAA. I never had time or the desire to shoot a lot of formal target archery in the past. This year I plan to shoot both indoor and field. We have the same attendance issues here. It could be a little better with more advertising, but that won’t fix it. It’s our culture.
> 
> It seems strange that bow hunting is so popular, but club membership and attendance is so low. By joining a club and participating, you get a great education and have fun doing it. People who golf pay lots of money for lessons, and spend entire vacations golfing. I guess most people just want to get good enough with a bow to shoot a deer at 20 yards. ??? The other issue is how busy people stay nowadays. If a person isn't running from sun up to dark and eating on the run, they don't feel fulfilled. Kids are in a zillion activities, and single income families are almost extinct. Weekends are spent on soccer fields and karate classes and grocery shopping etc…. Few people have lifestyles that allow them to spend a half day at a field shoot or an evening shooting indoor. Most of it looks like a self imposed crisis to me, but that’s our culture today.


There are many people that bowhunt that have 0 interest in archery or club membership. In fact, most join a club just to have a place to shoot their bow before hunting season. The bow for them is just another tool afield. PA has LOTS of bowhunters and while we do have LOTS of target shooters the difference in numbers between bowhunters & target shooters is astounding. 

I will spare you my personal rant on our self-created busy lifestyles but the fact of the matter is look for other ways to make your shoots and club successful besides trying to attract bowhunters to the target scene. (And those saying "I bowhunt AND shoot targets" don't count . . you are already a target archer AND a bowhunter). It is much easier to attract brand new shooters to target then it is to try to lure the bowhunters.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Where was the promotion and results published?
> What did you do to make the shoot the greatest state indoor ever?


Very good point....


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## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

*I could be wrong*

I just checked the results from our 2007 state indoor and it shows that we had around 260+ if i counted right and that was up from 2006 with a count of around 220 folks that shot.

I think the word gets out pretty well here in our state about our state shoots. 

I think more would shoot our state shoot if it was more in the center of the state also as some down in the souther half just don't want to drive way up to northern half to shoot it.

It mite also be the same if it was held down in southern half also but i don't know for sure.

Several of us that live in the central part of the state can go either direction with no problems. AC


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

archerycharlie said:


> I just checked the results from our 2007 state indoor and it shows that we had around 260+ if i counted right and that was up from 2006 with a count of around 220 folks that shot.
> 
> I think the word gets out pretty well here in our state about our state shoots.
> 
> ...


Yep the word getting out is key...just like in Va I just found out TODAY that the VFAA state shoot is next weekend. :doh: Sure not ready for that one.:embara:

But if I lived in AZ I probably wouldn't even shoot indoors:wink:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sent PM.

I kept track of our attendance for 2005 Championships and eyeballed it for 2006 and 07. We average 65 members attending for the Indoor (91), the Outdoor and the Field/Hunter. 65 out of 422 members. The way I got it figured our Board of Directors ain't getting the job done.


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## SOBLE (Aug 9, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Yep the word getting out is key...just like in Va I just found out TODAY that the VFAA state shoot is next weekend. :doh: Sure not ready for that one.:embara:
> 
> *But if I lived in AZ I probably wouldn't even shoot indoors*:wink:


Right there is probably the reason. Why shoot indoors when you have great weather all year to shoot outdoors. Who needs an indoor shoot?


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Ultimately there can be many factors with many being mentioned here. Advertising, time, cost of fuel and so on

However I have noticed many regional pockets of increased participation exist were you would not expect it . From my perspective that increase is because it was a viable form of entertainment compared to other opportunities at that time The other was because that area held many archers of similar skill sets. 

Combine a good time when nothing else is going on and a LEGITIMATE chance to hang with your peers and many times you have a winner 

I see it over and over again especially since not much new blood is coming into the sport. A handful of archers dominate and after a few years people get tired of contributing ESPECIALLY if there is nothing else to add value to the experience . Consequently participation falls off

Pack 50 archers into an avenge shoot and let most of them get whooped on … not much to travel for . 

Pack 50 in the same shoot and run a swap meet or something…… Probably get more to show up. Vegas, Lancaster , Natioanls are prime examples of this . But on the local level much can be done to add value as well

This is why I think it's important to set up competition based on skill classes so people can find value participating with others of there own skill level. I know many say the heck with this line of thinking and to not "dumb down" the game … Practice be the best and win ………..or just do it for the "experience " and camaraderie . Well time and time again is clearly demonstrating that archers need and want some thing" more" to spend the money and make the trip 

I love the local decision makers around these parts that say NO!!! To such ideas… and then never participate


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

Dave T said:


> I am the Tournament VP for our State NFAA Affiliate. We put on the State NFAA Indoor Championship this past weekend and the attendance was just miserable.


I would try and contact state directors from other states that are having successful turn outs and see how they are doing things.

Our state tournament is next week, and I would guess there will be about 300 shooters there. If you have a preferred line time in WI you better register early.:wink:


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

centerx said:


> This is why I think it's important to set up competition based on skill classes so people can find value participating with others of there own skill level. I know many say the heck with this line of thinking and to not "dumb down" the game … Practice be the best and win ………..or just do it for the "experience " and camaraderie . Well time and time again is clearly demonstrating that archers need and want some thing" more" to spend the money and make the trip


centrex,

We noted that problem and two years back changed to a score based classification system (like NFAA used to have) so 298-300 shooters are competing, 290-297 are competing, etc. We have seen slight increases in attendance at our other events (we do 4 each year) but this indoor was kind of a flop - at least in my view.

Dave


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## RaptorX (Dec 28, 2007)

*Just a thought?*

Was it held on Sunday? Super bowl Sunday?
This is definitely an off beat question, but with many other events in my life (be it Archery, or Golf, or anything else scheduled on that day that I'd rather do) if they are held on that day or even anytime that weekend, attendance is an all time low.
I don't watch much football, and I was home sleeping off a cold and didn't even watch it, but many, especially fans, will do nothing else that day.

I understand you have no shortage of archers in your area (my folks live in Sedona, there are also many football fans), so the above possible reason jumped out at me as soon as I read it.

Just a thought?

_BB


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Our State Indoor boosted from around 90 entries to 150 entries after we went with a live web based scoring system that joins up with the rest of the country. We then promoted the heck out of it on Archery Forum and made sure it had heaps on online activity. Scores get entered live online so people not at the shoot can watch them get entered. 
Sorry, but if you blame everything except for yourselves then you won't find a solution to the problem. If you make this a can't miss event then people will drop other things to attend. 
The world is changing, archery events can expect to do things the same way as we did 20 years ago and succeed.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Marcus touches on an Idea I have had for a long time 

On a Set weekend participating locations across the country should have a 2 day shoot. First day is for ranking and overall "local" winners. Day 2 is for head to head with others across the county via web cam 12 -18 or similar arrows until there is a national champ. 

Top 3 middle 3 and bottom 3 finishers at each location go head to head across the nation. That ways all skill sets have a chance to compete and win a "National" shoot

Perfectly suited for indoor competition and the technology exist now at a real decent pricing and people don't have to travel . Plus I think if done right pro shops that choose to participate may generate some extra income as well

It's all about working smarter not harder


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Sadly one of my MySQL servers is offline and the results with it. 
We run an event in Australia that we are growing around the world that works in that fashion. The webcams are not that big a deal, but the online results are. 
Last year we had 700+ competitors all shooting at the same weekend and with most venues using a projector to display the scores coming in from around the country. We had a rotating Top 5 leader board that would change all the time. 

We went to this because the National Indoor had shrunk to about 85 entries with most divisions uncontested. This has revitalised it.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

centerx said:


> Ultimately there can be many factors with many being mentioned here. Advertising, time, cost of fuel and so on
> 
> However I have noticed many regional pockets of increased participation exist were you would not expect it . From my perspective that increase is because it was a viable form of entertainment compared to other opportunities at that time The other was because that area held many archers of similar skill sets.
> 
> ...


Nail = head. 

Flighting your scores is the one of the only way to keep the perpetual middle of the pack shooters to continue paying out their entry fees.

Also, its important to foster a culture of camaraderie. If you have just a handful of guys that are clique-ish, abrasive, braggarts, you can spoil a whole club or market of average and new shooters.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I hear what your saying Marcus 

My Web Cam idea was to help promote a feeling of "live" competition that some may enjoy. I also feel like some people may not want to participate if they felt any type of impropriety going on . What is to stop a couple of people from feeding in bad scores just to "win" something.. It happens with the good 'ole boy network on the local 3-D course all the time??

But a web cam on target helps alleviate those concerns. However may not work with large masses shooting. Maybe the scores are posted real-time with the "finalist" going in front of a web cam for all to watch that choose to dial in ………….. Hey it works for the porn industry obviously?? :tongue:

Anyhow as you said. Why spend hundred to travel and compete with the same people you can compete with on the internet. In person is nice but getting expensive. Even a shoot 2 hours from here will cost me $75.00 by the time it is all said and done.. Not a lot of people want to take a day .. spend $75.00 and get there but whooped ... Not the most enticing way to grow tournament archery

I think a "cyber competition association" would be a good thing. Standardize it and encourage shops and clubs to get on board . Find the technology that works and package it to host facilities to purchase at cost. I see a lot of people hanging around a shop to see a head to head web cast between finalist in California shooting against one in Australia for example

Have a shoot down with live scores posted one weekend and the Live Webcam broadcast the next for the "super bowl of archery"???


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

The webcam stuff won't stop cheating, but what we do is run the events as official competition with judges and the works. Each venue got record numbers and were run as events in their own rights, so it wasn't hundreds of people in their backyards. 
With ties you have to look at the timezone difference. So there could be a 8-10 hour gap between countries. This stops shootoffs. We had one tie which was settled by the person with the highest first round declared the winner.


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## dhunt1 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Attendance*

Honestly....3-d is cheaper if you think about it. A fella can bring his hunting rig in and shoot at 3-d targets and only drop about $10.00. When you start shooting Indoor or Field the price of equipment (Target bows,expensive sights,scopes,etc...) goes up considerably. Not all of us can afford to invest in $1500.00 worth of stuff then try to get your family members involved...holy cow there's no way! I'm 44 and just now getting to the point that I'd like to get back into Field. It took me years to be able to let go of the cash to fully pursue it. So it's not easy to just say I'm going to get into Indoor or Field without really making a commitment to it. 
"Just a Thought"


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## BowTechWY (Feb 1, 2007)

Your friend was correct. Last weekend there 71 shooters in Wyoming at the Indoor State Vegas Match, I contribute this to the word getting out early and in every concievable spot they could be put.


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## rudeman (Jan 25, 2006)

> 3-d is cheaper if you think about it


Actually, both Field and 3-D can be as expensive or as inexpensive as you want. Both have various classes to accommodate the full spectrum of possible equipment. I've seen hunting rigs (what I use) at both and I've also certainly seen bazillion dollar rigs at both. 

BTW - at our league and our MFAA indoor shoots, it's only $8 - and you get 60 shots. Outdoors same price and you get 112 shots. A bargain compared to a 30-shot 3-D!!

Don't get me wrong - I like 3-D a lot and shoot it when there's no Field shoot. It's just I can't think of a single reason why I would shoot it *instead* of Field.


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## dhunt1 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Field*

I here ya Rudeman i really enjoyed it years ago but then got into shooting 3-d and now it's full circle and I'm ready to go back to Field again. I really enjoyed shooting with a good group of people and being outside is always a plus.


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Dave,
The weather would be against you down where you are if it was to nice, folks would just rather shoot out doors.

Like having indoor events in the north in the summer time.
Low turn outs.


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## dhunt1 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Field archery*

Some friends of mine in Missouri run Field and 3-d shoots and Indoor. I'm hoping to get more time to do the Field...maybe Indoor someday also! I just love shooting outdoor better.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Hold up boys. We drifted from Dave's Indoor Championship to field.


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## 2066 (Jan 4, 2003)

Dave,

You and the ABFAA did a great job as usual! 

I wish I knew why people don't show up for the State Indoor, but I don't. :sad:

I feel the the ABFAA has made great changes to attract more shooters. And I for one really like the score based classification and the fact you changed to the Vegas face this year. 

Dave I remember the days when we rushed to get out applications and money in to make the cut for the limit of shooters allowed. Today, you can just about sign up on sight and be guaranteed a chance to compete. Most shops will tell you they have more people show up on a regular basis for "league night" than we had at the State Indoor.

I don't know if getting the archery shops on the band wagon to promote the shoots or soliciting the collegiate clubs would help, but there are shooters out there who either don't know about the State Indoor or don't understand that State Indoor doesn't mean you have to be a 300 shooter.

I just want you to know that we appreciate all you and the ABFAA do to promote the sport of archery!

Take Care and Shoot Straight!


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Just don't cancel the shoot no matter what Dave, that will be the death, consider this a off year and promote the heck out of it on here for next year. 
The only difference between a 'must attend' shoot and a normal shoot is that people think they are missing out with the 'must attend'. 

PS. Nice to see you here Jayne, I have not read one of your posts in ages.


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## 2066 (Jan 4, 2003)

Hello Marcus...

It has been a while. Good to see you! 

I agree 100% with you when you told Dave not to give up....just call it one of those years and lets try to move forward.

Take Care and Shoot Straight!


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Thanks for the kind words Jayne. Since you attend every ABFAA event we put on I appreciate your participation...and that guy who hangs around with you too! (smiley face goes here)

Dave

PS: Hope Garry is feeling better.


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## The X Moves (Mar 15, 2005)

We had our Indoor NFAA Sectionals here and in KC on super bowl weekend. Had about 130 shooters per site. This is down some. Economy? Superbowl? Weather?? Last year we had about 40 shooters drop out because of a little blizzard  . Weather is ALWAYS a factor in any time of year. You can set up a beautiful outdoor 3D and get rained out. Happened to us last year.

One thing that amazes and irritates me is that our spot league has to shoot double lines because of the number of shooters (we have 32 lanes) and yet very few of our league shooters opted to shoot in the Sectionals.  For myself, I shot in it the first year I held a bow because I wanted to feel the rush/stress of a tournament and test myself. Can't understand why people would shy away from that chance. I had no expectation of winning so no pressure really and I didn't care if I came away with a trophy.

Why? Some are just intimidated -- this is their first foray into competition and league play is about as intense as they want. Some said that they didn't want to pay the NFAA annual dues and then the tournament fees of $35 to shoot. Being half Scotch and half Dutch, I can certainly understand that -- I'd sooner part with a fingernail than a dollar . For others, it's a time commitment that they're not willing to make for a 2-day shoot (on the other hand, it's hard to make a case to drive across the State (or to another State) for a one-day event.)

I really like the idea of live scoring. Internet access is key. Both KC and SF sites this year had some "issues" -- our internet connection crapped out on Sunday and I had a heck of a time getting info sent to KC. I think with the newer tech coming out, we might get to a point where we could pull off something like a continuous computer projection scoreboard of sorts -- sure would beat the crap out of the magnetic cards and erasable Sharpie pens.

I just can't imagine that in a population as dense as the Phoenix area that you would have any problems filling an archery range and tournament shooting lines. Maybe it's time for your club to get back to the basics -- get kids involved -- JOAD program, 4H, etc. Wish you the best of luck.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

The X Moves said:


> I just can't imagine that in a population as dense as the Phoenix area that you would have any problems filling an archery range and tournament shooting lines. Maybe it's time for your club to get back to the basics -- get kids involved -- JOAD program, 4H, etc.


This wasn't a club but rather the state NFAA affiliated organization. It puts on 4 NFAA events every year and our participation by kids runs from 1 or 2 at last year's indoor to Zero for the outdoor stuff. There are 4 JOAD programs in the Phoenix area and I gave talks and invitations to two of them to try field. Offered discount entry fees (like the first shoot for free) and am still waiting to see the first kid show up.

At the risk of beating a dead horse...I still don't get it!

Dave


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I chose not to shoot sectionals this year and while I can not talk for everybody I'll tell you my reasons

1) While I don't suck I can't hang with the very elite .. I can HOPE to nail some of those scores on occasion but on average I'm a few x's off. Now I really could care less about winning however that fact that I probably won't does not motivate me 

2) Anyway you look at it it's going to be a $300.00 or more trip… Not a ton for a couple of days shooting out of town. However with some of the bigger tournaments coming up a penny saved is a penny earned 

3) This year working on Sat came into play

4) Big tournaments don't prep me mentally anymore. I keep the same level of intensity if 10 or 100 people are in my class. In fact if I shoot with a small group of 10 people I know for me the pressure goes up a little 

Bottom line with time, money , and work commitments it's to much. And If I have to make choices I would rather attend the state and National shoots… Nationals are more bang for the buck. State shoots I feel are important to support… even If I have to travel further for them


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## TCR1 (Dec 22, 2004)

It is hard to say for me why AZ attendance was off this year. 

Do any hunting seasons interfere? The weather is good, people are outside, not wanting to be couped up.

I can speak as to why I don't mind donating to the state so I can shoot my bow and watch other people win. The folks are all real freindly. When I started shooting target seriously, they welcomed me in, helped me out, just treated me right. From pro to joe, people were happty to see me (or at least pretended well enough ) Going to the shoots provides me the opportunity to catch up with people, hear about hunting, shooting woes and shooting success. I find out about peope and most of us just have a great time. Truth be told, there are only a few winners no matter how many people show up, what is important is that EVERYBODY that shows up has a good time. Post the rules for the shoot on the notice and adhere to them. Keep to the schedule and offer special things throughout the shoot.

Help people to interact with each other. Archery is more about community to me than score, so I may be way off.


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

Dave T said:


> This wasn't a club but rather the state NFAA affiliated organization. It puts on 4 NFAA events every year and our participation by kids runs from 1 or 2 at last year's indoor to Zero for the outdoor stuff. There are 4 JOAD programs in the Phoenix area and I gave talks and invitations to two of them to try field. Offered discount entry fees (like the first shoot for free) and am still waiting to see the first kid show up.
> 
> At the risk of beating a dead horse...I still don't get it!
> 
> Dave


Question for you? Are any of the JOAD coaches involved with the NFAA? Locally we do not have JOAD, but we do have 4H. All the the coaches are NFAA members and they do talking about the tournaments that are coming and and always recognize the kids that shoot in these tournaments.

Our youth involvement in the NFAA has been increasing every year and I think programs like 4H has a lot to do with it. Lots of good things come out of these programs. I got involved in archery because my daughter started shooting with the 4H program.

I wish you the best of luck in future tournaments.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

*Indoor is big in Washington*

Washington State Archery Association Indoor Multi-Color Championship
Three sites across the state served as hosts for the WSAA Indoor Multi-Color Championship on the weekend of 11-13 January 2008. A total of 145 archers participated, with the largest group at Silver Arrow Bowmen in Mount Vernon. The other locations were Archery World in Vancouver and AS&J Archery in Yakima.
Some fine scores were shot, including Mark Eaves (A-M-FS, Championship Flight) with 599, followed by Ryan Magelson with 597 for second place. A three-way tie for third place at 594 was decided by X-count in favor of Jason Prince. Pro-M-FS saw John Heuvel chalking up 598 to slide ahead of Martin Lotz’s 597. On the female side, high marks were set by A-F-FS Karen Palmer at 585 and Pro-F-FS Crystal Parker with 584.
We were happy to see large turnout is some special categories – 40 of the participants were female, 13 were Young Adults, plus nine Youths, seven Cubs, and one PeeWee. Two youngsters took on the new NASP category, one High School and one Middle School.
The Blueface Mail-In started 1 February and will run through 31 March, with our Blueface Championship on 1-2 March and the NW Indoor Sectional 8-9 March. Then in April, we move outdoors with the State Target Championship – NFAA 900 round.


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

*Another great turnout in WI*

We had 320 shooters this past weekend. Participation was so great that some people were turned away. Next year we'll have to run two line per shoot time to accommodate more shooters:thumbs_up


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

supernova said:


> We had 320 shooters this past weekend. Participation was so great that some people were turned away. Next year we'll have to run two line per shoot time to accommodate more shooters:thumbs_up


Beat me to it Supernova:wink: We also don't get to shoot out side much this time of year. On the final day of shooting we recieved between 8 and 12" of snow between the first and last line Stranded many of the late shooters in town for an extra day.
John


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## The X Moves (Mar 15, 2005)

Would have loved to have you as our guest CenterX. 

We are presently working with several local hotels to have multiple choices for people coming from out of town to our 1/2 of the indoor Sectionals.

Some will want full-featured hotels (pools, spas, restaurants) and others will just want a clean and warm place to rest their bones after shooting and partying with friends.

There's no question that the cost of NFAA membership and the $35 entry fee also keeps some of the locals from participating (even knowing that it would help support their own club!). If they only shoot in one NFAA event all year, the cost of the membership to them isn't justified. They are not seeing the bigger picture, but for many, shooting archery is a stretch of their budget and work and family expenses come first.

We wondered if the rather unsure and unsteady economy would cost us some shooters and it clearly has. We even had good weather. Doh! 

Hope that more folks can make it here next year.


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