# Can you guess what this is?



## Hokieman

What monkey want tell you is the hunting regulations for that area, he'd rather you look at the picture and get disgusted and bad mouth hound hunters a real cheap shot.


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## cynic

Is that a POSTED sign nailed to that tree? Are the hound hunters actually within THEIR designated area? Does the use of dogs affect adjoining properties and hunters against their will? Yes, these are unanswered questions that must be answered before "I" can condemn the method simply because of appearances portrayed in a picture... Not all hound hunters are bad, it is just a method that many dislike.. I was active in changing the Private Property Rights law as they pertained to trespassing by dog hunters... If a hunter finds the method more enjoyable and exciting than sitting idly in a tree waiting so be it... I have no cause for alarm in their choice until it DIRECTLY affects my hunting on MY property


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## Moon

*You'll*

notice there is a posted sign just on the other side of the "shooting platfrom".

Now you tell me, why is the platform facing the highway instead of the woods? Surely they would not shoot across the highway or down the highway, do you think? 

These and other photos are going to the VA DGIF so they can keep these sickening practices called "hunting" in front of them.

Land owners in this area will NOT stop their efforts to either change or end the lawless actions that put others in danger and intrude on private property owners' right to privacy on THEIR land.

You can take that to the bank.

BTW, it is typical for posted signs to be put up at the edge of the highway. That is not the point. Shooting across and down the highway IS.


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## cynic

Moonkryket said:


> notice there is a posted sign just on the other side of the "shooting platfrom".
> 
> Now you tell me, why is the platform facing the highway instead of the woods? Surely they would not shoot across the highway or down the highway, do you think?
> 
> These and other photos are going to the VA DGIF so they can keep these sickening practices called "hunting" in front of them.
> 
> Land owners in this area will NOT stop their efforts to either change or end the lawless actions that put others in danger and intrude on private property owners' right to privacy on THEIR land.
> 
> You can take that to the bank.


I guess to each his own, PETA will also continue to put photos of animals walking around with arrows sticking out of them like antennas until the overwhelming populace denouces the use of archery tackle. I agree the infringement on PRIVATE PROPERTY is a problem but to condemn those just because they choose a method you do not agree with is just as wrong as the portrayal of Animal Rights groups on other types of hunting IMO... Unfortunately the bad ones will also affect the good ones.. Choose your fight on which front accordingly... To someone else any kind of hunting can be made to look bad

Is that Posted sign on another property OR on the property where the stand is located

To address your edit--- Do you have a picture of a hunter shooting across or down the road?


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## Moon

*Don't you think your question is silly?*

Do you actually think I would sit on the highway and wait for this person to shoot at something coming across the road?? You've got to be kidding. It's your right to defend this deer shooting practice and it's my right to try to end it and if you see nothing wrong with it, there's no need for me to continue bickering back and forth with you.


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## cynic

Moonkryket said:


> Do you actually think I would sit on the highway and wait for this person to shoot at something coming across the road?? You've got to be kidding. It's your right to defend this deer shooting practice and it's my right to try to end it and if you see nothing wrong with it, there's no need for me to continue bickering back and forth with you.


Do you have access to that property? I can tell you are affended by the fact that I will not condemn others simply because I don't partake in a legal method.. I will stand side by side with a person to protect THEIR private property rights, but not against hunters taking part in a LEGAL method.. I am not bickering, just attempting to see through your narrow portrayal of all dog hunters... Would you feel the same when gun hunters started portraying the wounding rates of the crossbow as being unethical... Statistics are out there showing sticks and strings lead to a high wounding rate not just by AR's.. I understand the frustration of having a Private property issue but you need to focus on Private property rather than ending a method of hunting simply because you don't agree with it...


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## rick64

What the heck happened to the other post?


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## BigBirdVA

rick64 said:


> What the heck happened to the other post?


Certain people that are famous for not following the rules posted something they shouldn't have. Not once but twice so they removed the thread. 

Bet it was "PM from a mod" time too ! :zip:


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## BigBirdVA

No this is what the sign says. Makes it perfectly safe you know.


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## Moon

*And on it goes*

Do you have access to that property? 

No

I can tell you are affended by the fact that I will not condemn others simply because I don't partake in a legal method.. 

You don't offend me. You have no idea what I and others have experienced here for the last 20 years.

I will stand side by side with a person to protect THEIR private property rights, but not against hunters taking part in a LEGAL method.. 

Do what you want, Dude.

I am not bickering, just attempting to see through your narrow portrayal of all dog hunters... 

Show me where I said ALL dog hunters. What you deem as narrow portrayal is another opinion of yours..................not mine.


Would you feel the same when gun hunters started portraying the wounding rates of the crossbow as being unethical... 

No..........if it was factual. I would also fight against bowhunters and crossbow hunters placing shooting platforms within spitting distance of a paved highway with the obvious attempt to shoot arrows across and down the highway and you obviously think that is cool. I doubt that I will ever see a bowhunter sitting in a ditch beside the highway and calling himself hunting.

Statistics are out there showing sticks and strings lead to a high wounding rate not just by AR's.. 

My statistics show that over half of all the bucks I've taken over the years had buckshot in their bodies, either just under the skin or, in some case worse than that. You believe what you hear. I believe what I see and don't forget I used to participate in that deer chasing bit. I was born at night but not last night.

I understand the frustration of having a Private property issue.

I'm not frustrated.............I'm mad. There is a difference you know.

but you need to focus on Private property

I'll focus on what I want and not suggest you do otherwise.

rather than ending a method of hunting simply because you don't agree with it... 

It's not hunting. It's deer chasing and shooting.........and I DON'T agree with it. 

I suggest until you've actually experienced what I have, you need to lay off making assumptions about my motivations. You have no clue.

BTW, I understand Florida has buckled down on deer chasing practices. Were your toes stepped on in the process?


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## cynic

UHHH OOOH MK you are starting to get emotional just like the anti-crossbow gang.. You need to fight for Private Property Rights NOT banning a form of hunting just because you have an emotional dislike for it...

Now while you try to get around the narrow portrayal being my opinion--- It will also be the opinion of others


There are tons of facts that suggest that Bows and arrows are the most unethical of all methods while pursuing a recreation... Even Bowhunter Magazine published an article years ago..

Gather your thoughts and composure and fight the right fight--You are better than the mud draggings it would appear... State your case for the protection of private property you will have a better chance of winning WE DID... IT was not about the hunting method, it was about individuals rights to feel secure on their OWN PROPERTY...
It's not hunting. It's deer chasing and shooting.........and I DON'T agree with it.
Some will say that sitting in a treestand isn't hunting either because they don't agree with it.. You better get on your tap shoes if you think you really want to engage by derogatory means.. I see the issue from both side--- You see it through your hatred of a method that you dislike

BTW, I understand Florida has buckled down on deer chasing practices. Were your toes stepped on in the process? 
Evidently your reading skills are lacking I was in the fight for MY Private property rights-- So no my toes weren't stepped on.. I don't hunt with the use of dogs except to retrieve ducks---


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## rick64

Everyone has their own opinion and they're entitled to it. I don't care what style of hunting others do or the weapon they use, just so it doesn't interfere with another hunter or landowner. In VA the state forces you to live with hounds being intensionaly run out of season and on prohibited lands.


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## vabass

Cynic- I also live in VA and I can tell you the dog hunters here are causing the division between hunters. We had a proposal up that would have allowed bow hunting on Sundays on private property only and guess who showed up in Richmond with HSUS to fight against it? The dog hunters. Now they are sending stats to legislators to show how many more laws are broken by still hunters than dog hunters (which may be true only because they cant get trespassing violations). They are also trying to have bear removed from our big game stamp so that you have to purchase a seperate bear tag because they say too many still hunters are killing their bears. I used to not mind them but they are going to end hunting for all of us.


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## Moon

**

There are tons of facts that suggest that Bows and arrows are the most unethical of all methods while pursuing a recreation... Even Bowhunter Magazine published an article years ago.. 

Yeah, and bowhunting/crossbowhunting is the only segment of the hunting market that continues to grow. There is nothing more unethical than showering buckshot in the general direction of a running deer.

Gather your thoughts and composure and fight the right fight--You are better than the mud draggings it would appear... 

There you go again, telling me how to fight MY fight


State your case for the protection of private property you will have a better chance of winning WE DID... IT was not about the hunting method, it was about individuals rights to feel secure on their OWN PROPERTY...

Congratulations................we'll do it our way, thank you for the valuable advice:asleep:


Some will say that sitting in a treestand isn't hunting either because they don't agree with it.. You better get on your tap shoes if you think you really want to engage by derogatory means.. 

The deer chasers are on the defensive if you have not noticed. My shoes have spikes on them, not taps.

I see the issue from both side--- You see it through your hatred of a method that you dislike

You have no idea what I see so you can get off that analyzation bit.


Evidently your reading skills are lacking I was in the fight for MY Private property rights-- So no my toes weren't stepped on.. I don't hunt with the use of dogs except to retrieve ducks---

Yeah, right..............and I'm Santa Claus 


There are only 9 states remaining still tolerating deer chasing and that "ole" tradition that has gone horribly wrong is in jeopardy. Just because you limited your focus on property owners' rights means nothing to me and I assume most others are not looking for your advice either. Again congratulations on your supposed success. 

I can't help but believe you have an agenda here. I know when to start rolling my pants legs up.


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## poole

I have never hunted by herding game with dogs, but it does not sound very challenging to me. The challenge is part of the hunt that I like. That is one of the reasons that I also like to bow hunt. If its legal, to each there own. I dont know anything about how hunting with dogs works, but I have to say I would be very upset if I spent hours in a tree stand and along came a bunch of people and dogs chasing the game. Do they have designated areas?


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## vabass

poole said:


> I have never hunted by herding game with dogs, but it does not sound very challenging to me. The challenge is part of the hunt that I like. That is one of the reasons that I also like to bow hunt. If its legal, to each there own. I dont know anything about how hunting with dogs works, but I have to say I would be very upset if I spent hours in a tree stand and along came a bunch of people and dogs chasing the game. Do they have designated areas?


My neighbors dont even bother getting out of their car. They have a dirt road along our property line. They pull into the woods in their cars, roll down the windows and shoot the deer as the dogs run them. I see them do it every year. Of course that would be a still hunting violation when written up.


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## poole

vabass said:


> My neighbors dont even bother getting out of their car. They have a dirt road along our property line. They pull into the woods in their cars, roll down the windows and shoot the deer as the dogs run them. I see them do it every year. Of course that would be a still hunting violation when written up.


Is hunting at night with a light legal there? I just dont see much difference.


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## Moon

*Ok*

For those of you ( only one, it seems  that don't get it.

That tree stand in the photo is facing the highway and anyone that believes that the shooter won't shoot across the road (against the law) or down the road (against the law) is either kidding himself or is one of those on the dark side. 

Those that ask "have you seen them shoot down the road"?................are obviously one of those that see nothing wrong with it.

If I put a corn pile (against the law) within 20 yards of my treestand where all the world could see it and asked "well, you haven't seen me shoot a deer feeding on that corn pile have you"?.................... Go figure

My point of showing this photo is to let everyone see what SE Virginia's deer chasing "tradition" has become. No, not all deer chasers break the law and some I know work hard to keep their dogs off others' property but all too often, there are those that obviously couldn't care less. That mind set bleeds over into most everything they do. Dropping dogs onto others' property, chasing fawns in the spring , chasing deer during bow and muzzle loader season, walking onto private posted property "looking for their dogs", shooting down highways and on and on. If you defend that, YOU are an enemy of hunting.... bottom line


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## vabass

poole said:


> Is hunting at night with a light legal there? I just dont see much difference.


 To be fair, they arent all that bad. I just have a bad group next to me. I have been with other clubs and it is actually a nice break in the middle of the season from sitting in a tree stand all day. Usually you show up a little early to the club house, shoot the crap with the guys and have a nice breakfast. So that part of it is fun. It is just their actions over the last couple of years of fighting against Sunday hunting and such that has turned me against them.


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## poole

vabass said:


> To be fair, they arent all that bad. I just have a bad group next to me. I have been with other clubs and it is actually a nice break in the middle of the season from sitting in a tree stand all day. Usually you show up a little early to the club house, shoot the crap with the guys and have a nice breakfast. So that part of it is fun. It is just their actions over the last couple of years of fighting against Sunday hunting and such that has turned me against them.


Is Sunday closed for all hunting there, or just for the dogs.


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## Moon

*All*

There is NO logical reason for bowhunting not to be allowed on Sundays on private land. It's non- intrusive and out of sight. Just one more idiotic law that should be changed.


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## poole

Moonkryket said:


> There is NO logical reason for bowhunting not to be allowed on Sundays on private land. It's non- intrusive and out of sight. Just one more idiotic law that should be changed.


That is insane. Property rights are one of the few things we actually have left. What business is it of anybody what I do on my property?

In GA I cant technically hunt within so many yards of a feeder or if I can see the feeder even if the feeder is not on my property. I have a 5 acre parcel, lets say I wanted to hunt on it...if all my neighbors surrounded it with feeders it would be illegal for me to hunt on my own property. I just dont get some of it.


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## BigBirdVA

poole said:


> I have never hunted by herding game with dogs, but it does not sound very challenging to me. The challenge is part of the hunt that I like. That is one of the reasons that I also like to bow hunt. If its legal, to each there own. I dont know anything about how hunting with dogs works, but I have to say I would be very upset if I spent hours in a tree stand and along came a bunch of people and dogs chasing the game. Do they have designated areas?


Yes. Only the places a dog can go. Deer dog chasing is basically east of the mountains. They can come onto your land to get their dogs 24/7/365 as long as they are unarmed. The dogs have zero restrictions on running.


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## BigBirdVA

poole said:


> Is Sunday closed for all hunting there, or just for the dogs.


All hunting is closed on Sundays. They have proposed bills in the state come up each year to allow Sunday hunting. The last one 2 different enties showed up to say no to the bill. The HSUS and the dog chasers org. Imagine that? A pro-hound hunting group siding with the worlds most well known anti-hunting group. And they wonder why some don't like them? 

They claim the hunters don't want Sundays but a survey VA did came up a majority did want it. They don't because they need a day to gather up lost hounds and they use Sunday for that after raising cane all day Sat. If Sundays are allowed then others will get a day up on them and they can't have that happen. Plus those that would run on Sundays would kill any time of peace the non-hunters get during the fall. They try to claim other reasons but really what other valid reasons could anyone have to stop what someone does on their own land? Nothing unless you don't value property rights.


Here you go. Check out the hunting boots on Bubba #2. Deer looks to be exhausted. How anyone can call that ethical and sportsman like is beyond me.







Another fun day chasing. Did you see/hear the guy load his gun when the truck stopped? Safety is always first in the chasers mind.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> All hunting is closed on Sundays. They have proposed bills in the state come up each year to allow Sunday hunting. The last one 2 different enties showed up to say no to the bill. The HSUS and the dog chasers org. Imagine that? A pro-hound hunting group siding with the worlds most well known anti-hunting group. And they wonder why some don't like them?
> 
> They claim the hunters don't want Sundays but a survey VA did came up a majority did want it. They don't because they need a day to gather up lost hounds and they use Sunday for that after raising cane all day Sat. If Sundays are allowed then others will get a day up on them and they can't have that happen. Plus those that would run on Sundays would kill any time of peace the non-hunters get during the fall. They try to claim other reasons but really what other valid reasons could anyone have to stop what someone does on their own land? Nothing unless you don't value property rights.
> 
> 
> Here you go. Check out the hunting boots on Bubba #2. Deer looks to be exhausted. How anyone can call that ethical and sportsman like is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another fun day chasing. Did you see/hear the guy load his gun when the truck stopped? Safety is always first in the chasers mind.


Rick that is not even in VA. There you go putting a video on and saying see what they do in VA and this was video somewhere else. What a tangle web we weave when we are out to decieve. your post is BS. Its like me posting this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZyQBNyZqU


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## cynic

Moonkryket said:


> There are tons of facts that suggest that Bows and arrows are the most unethical of all methods while pursuing a recreation... Even Bowhunter Magazine published an article years ago..
> 
> Yeah, and bowhunting/crossbowhunting is the only segment of the hunting market that continues to grow. There is nothing more unethical than showering buckshot in the general direction of a running deer.
> 
> Gather your thoughts and composure and fight the right fight--You are better than the mud draggings it would appear...
> 
> There you go again, telling me how to fight MY fight
> 
> 
> State your case for the protection of private property you will have a better chance of winning WE DID... IT was not about the hunting method, it was about individuals rights to feel secure on their OWN PROPERTY...
> 
> Congratulations................we'll do it our way, thank you for the valuable advice:asleep:
> 
> 
> Some will say that sitting in a treestand isn't hunting either because they don't agree with it.. You better get on your tap shoes if you think you really want to engage by derogatory means..
> 
> The deer chasers are on the defensive if you have not noticed. My shoes have spikes on them, not taps.
> 
> I see the issue from both side--- You see it through your hatred of a method that you dislike
> 
> You have no idea what I see so you can get off that analyzation bit.
> 
> 
> Evidently your reading skills are lacking I was in the fight for MY Private property rights-- So no my toes weren't stepped on.. I don't hunt with the use of dogs except to retrieve ducks---
> 
> Yeah, right..............and I'm Santa Claus
> 
> 
> There are only 9 states remaining still tolerating deer chasing and that "ole" tradition that has gone horribly wrong is in jeopardy. Just because you limited your focus on property owners' rights means nothing to me and I assume most others are not looking for your advice either. Again congratulations on your supposed success.
> 
> I can't help but believe you have an agenda here. I know when to start rolling my pants legs up.





Moonkryket said:


> For those of you ( only one, it seems  that don't get it.
> 
> That tree stand in the photo is facing the highway and anyone that believes that the shooter won't shoot across the road (against the law) or down the road (against the law) is either kidding himself or is one of those on the dark side.
> 
> Those that ask "have you seen them shoot down the road"?................are obviously one of those that see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> If I put a corn pile (against the law) within 20 yards of my treestand where all the world could see it and asked "well, you haven't seen me shoot a deer feeding on that corn pile have you"?.................... Go figure
> 
> My point of showing this photo is to let everyone see what SE Virginia's deer chasing "tradition" has become. No, not all deer chasers break the law and some I know work hard to keep their dogs off others' property but all too often, there are those that obviously couldn't care less. That mind set bleeds over into most everything they do. Dropping dogs onto others' property, chasing fawns in the spring , chasing deer during bow and muzzle loader season, walking onto private posted property "looking for their dogs", shooting down highways and on and on. If you defend that, YOU are an enemy of hunting.... bottom line


MK you are struggling to place a visual on ALL dog hunters and now trying to back up.... For the rest of you VA hunters that can address this in a realistic methof and put your emotions aside--- The fight is not against the dog hunters it is FOR PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS---- Use the violations of the hounds to make the point.. Try to ban the method will be a much harder fight, limiting when and where-- how much land they must have etc etc will be easier-- Once that is in place they will hang themselves... MK I was trying to point out what worked to get laws in place here-- arrogance and emotion are the tool to get the job done


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Rick that is not even in VA. There you go putting a video on and saying see what they do in VA and this was video somewhere else. What a tangle web we weave when we are out to decieve. your post is BS. Its like me posting this video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZyQBNyZqU


Oh I know they don't ever do anything like what's in the video in VA. Why it's impossible to behave like that here. I've never heard "the dogs have a deer at bay" on the radio or trucks hauling freight down roads to cut off "the big 'un". 

And shotguns never wound. Nope never heard " I bloodied one up, but he went across the river ( or swamp ) and we couldn't find 'em". Nope not in VA. 


Since you want to throw out my last hunt club experiences they kept track of shots taken during the year and deer taken. Misses ran 3 to 1 over kills. Here's some memorable notes on results for the year. 



> Clint P. 21 Shots and ran out of shells twice.





> Randy E. 8 shots



Off course all those misses were clean. You're so far in denial you may never get back to reality.


Truth be told all hunting results in wounds. Is it easier to hit a deer standing still or a running one? Why was it such a great thing to remove the plugged magazine restriction in VA? Why are more deer killed with rifles in VA than shotgun if chasing is so effective? The chasers weapon of choice is a shotgun. So if so much of VA is chasing lands why isn't shotgun # 1? ML has the highest success rate of deer kills per day in VA. Why's that? Simple they're not being chased by the hounds. But wait how can ML do so well in those same places the hound hunters claim can't effectively be hunted without the use of their amazing dogs? How do they do so well? Hmmm............. seems something is amiss here. Maybe it's ....... another lie !!!!! Data shows it differently. 

We haven't even started on deer damage permits. How can there even be one if the chasers do so well and kill so much? 

And BTW I bought that info from VDGIF. It cost me an email. LOL


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## Pine Tag

All of y'all are using negatives from each method of hunting. Grow up. Everyone wounds deer. 

As far as the statistics, the data is skewed so you can't use that to portray hound hunters in a bad light. The reason why shotgun is not number one is two fold. 1) Dogs aren't used for deer in the mountains (heaviest deer population counties) therefore not many shotguns are used. 2) Most of the dog hunters hunt on Saturdays during general firearms season therefore drastically limiting the number of days afield. Yes, I know there are some dog clubs out there that hunt during the weekdays but most are Saturday hunters.

I can see both sides of the issue here but it seems like for whatever reason this is a major issue in SE Virginia. Looks like y'all just need some more policing by the game wardens. Our club gets along with everyone on the surrounding land and my old hunt club also had no problems. I'm not saying all deer dog clubs are perfect but all bowhunters are not perfect, all gunhunters are not perfect. I think the biggest issue here is a lack of common courtesy between all groups. Both sides (still/stand hunters and dog hunters) are biased and hold ill will toward each other. I think some compromise from everyone might be beneficial.


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## chuckl

> Truth be told all hunting results in wounds. Is it easier to hit a deer standing still or a running one? Why was it such a great thing to remove the plugged magazine restriction in VA? Why are more deer killed with rifles in VA than shotgun if chasing is so effective? The chasers weapon of choice is a shotgun. So if so much of VA is chasing lands why isn't shotgun # 1? ML has the highest success rate of deer kills per day in VA. Why's that? Simple they're not being chased by the hounds. But wait how can ML do so well in those same places the hound hunters claim can't effectively be hunted without the use of their amazing dogs? How do they do so well? Hmmm............. seems something is amiss here. Maybe it's ....... another lie !!!!! Data shows it differently.
> 
> We haven't even started on deer damage permits. How can there even be one if the chasers do so well and kill so much?
> 
> And BTW I bought that info from VDGIF. It cost me an email. LOL


soooooo if m/l have the highest succes rate then dogs must not be running their game off as suggested by some


> Simple they're not being chased by the hounds.


mmmmmmm somthing is amiss here

oh yeah your free e-mail.......anybody signed up for the vdgif updates gets them,your not special.......well maybe you are or maybe you just got it off another web site those facts were posted on,mmmmmmmm

pinetag you hit the nail on the head,ive never had problems with my surounding landowners we get along great,most enjoy our dogs when they are having a slow day even call over and ask for push in their direction from time to time.

your alos right in your explanation of the numbers but rick likes to twist things around so the un-knowing will be mis-informed.


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## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> soooooo if m/l have the highest succes rate then dogs must not be running their game off as suggested by some
> 
> mmmmmmm somthing is amiss here
> 
> oh yeah your free e-mail.......anybody signed up for the vdgif updates gets them,your not special.......well maybe you are or maybe you just got it off another web site those facts were posted on,mmmmmmmm
> 
> pinetag you hit the nail on the head,ive never had problems with my surounding landowners we get along great,most enjoy our dogs when they are having a slow day even call over and ask for push in their direction from time to time.
> 
> your alos right in your explanation of the numbers but rick likes to twist things around so the un-knowing will be mis-informed.


Uh........ looked at the game laws recently? ML is before chase season. And ML have more range than anything else legal in most of the deer chasing counties or the non-rifle ones.


Nope, wrong again. Stats from a person in VDGIF that keeps the data records. Not those monthly reports. It's just a matter of asking the right person for the right data. Daily kill rates for non dog counties are much higher than the dog ones too. Yes something is amiss all right. 


That's great you're surrounded by like minded people. But when the end of the lands controlled by the dog chasers meets those who don't want others or their dogs on their land then the problems arise. Regardless of what you feel is happening the dog chasing as it stands today is a violation of property rights and that's what will be fixed. I don't care what you do on your own lands, you just shouldn't be able to force your will on others that don't want intrusion.


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## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> All of y'all are using negatives from each method of hunting. Grow up. Everyone wounds deer.
> 
> As far as the statistics, the data is skewed so you can't use that to portray hound hunters in a bad light. The reason why shotgun is not number one is two fold. 1) Dogs aren't used for deer in the mountains (heaviest deer population counties) therefore not many shotguns are used. 2) Most of the dog hunters hunt on Saturdays during general firearms season therefore drastically limiting the number of days afield. Yes, I know there are some dog clubs out there that hunt during the weekdays but most are Saturday hunters.
> 
> I can see both sides of the issue here but it seems like for whatever reason this is a major issue in SE Virginia. Looks like y'all just need some more policing by the game wardens. Our club gets along with everyone on the surrounding land and my old hunt club also had no problems. I'm not saying all deer dog clubs are perfect but all bowhunters are not perfect, all gunhunters are not perfect. I think the biggest issue here is a lack of common courtesy between all groups. Both sides (still/stand hunters and dog hunters) are biased and hold ill will toward each other. I think some compromise from everyone might be beneficial.


I've got the deer per county kill numbers and by weapon. The mountains out gun on a per day basis anywhere else in VA. That's why the season is only 2 weeks for gun. The herd can't take 6 weeks at such a successful rate. It can take it in other places because the hunting isn't as effective.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I've got the deer per county kill numbers and by weapon. The mountains out gun on a per day basis anywhere else in VA. That's why the season is only 2 weeks for gun. The herd can't take 6 weeks at such a successful rate. It can take it in other places because the hunting isn't as effective.


Rick didn't yah know us mountain boys are sharp shooters. Hell we don't like climbing them mountains all day. one shot one kill.


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## Pine Tag

As I said, deer populations are greater in the mountains. More deer = more kills (pic below). The only true measure to show greater effectiveness would be impossible to capture. You would have to collect the wounding rates, kill rates, # of clean misses, and total shots taken on dog counties and non-dog counties. You would also have to break it down by individual weapon and then compare to find a true effectiveness ratio. The game dep't doesn't have that info.


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## ButchA

Moonkryket said:


> There is NO logical reason for bowhunting not to be allowed on Sundays on private land. It's non- intrusive and out of sight. Just one more idiotic law that should be changed.


Once again, Moonkryket speaks the truth!! :hail:

I have spoken to other hunters from other states and their reactions speak loudly.

In Virginia, we can't hunt on Sunday. Reaction: _What? :mg: That's insane! Get that law changed. I can't imagine not hunting on a Sunday! :mmph:_

In Virginia (primarily eastern VA) they hunt deer with hound dogs. Reaction: _I've heard of that. I don't quite understand the reason, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Around here, if we see someone's dog chasing after a deer, we'll shoot the dog!_


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## chuckl

hey butch,you ready to get together so i can show you some honey holes for you next year


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## cynic

chuckl said:


> hey butch,you ready to get together so i can show you some honey holes for you next year


Would those honey holes be on property you have access to or that while looking for dogs were able to stumble upon?..


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## poole

I guess what still really just dumbfounds me is that there are places where its legal to let your dogs go on somebody else's property? That just makes no sense to me. Why is it called "private" property. And if the government can dictate who comes and goes from it, than do I really own it? Think Id be just renting if I lived there...


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## stiennen

ButchA said:


> Once again, Moonkryket speaks the truth!! :hail:
> 
> I have spoken to other hunters from other states and their reactions speak loudly.
> 
> In Virginia, we can't hunt on Sunday. Reaction: _What? :mg: That's insane! Get that law changed. I can't imagine not hunting on a Sunday! :mmph:_
> 
> In Virginia (primarily eastern VA) they hunt deer with hound dogs. Reaction: _I've heard of that. I don't quite understand the reason, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Around here, if we see someone's dog chasing after a deer, we'll shoot the dog!_



That is pretty mush how it works in Illinois. People take there hunting spots seriously and will shoot dogs on there property all year round. I do not have the heart to shoot a dog but there are plenty out there that do.


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## stiennen

I do agree that the argument here should be private property rights and not hunting method. As long as it is within the law it is ok with me. You do seem to have some goofy property laws out there though


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## chuckl

> Would those honey holes be on property you have access to or that while looking for dogs were able to stumble upon?..


they are actually on state forest lands that anybody with the permit can hunt.
me and butch in the past have found some common ground and in the past he has hunted said lands and even though he is a die hard still hunter and im a die hard hound hunter we have found a common intrest and ive been willing to show him some of my secret spots to help my fellow hunter out.i know those woods like the back of my hand and would like to see butch take a nice buck off of it.its closer to home for him and he doesnt have to travel to the mountains of virginia to have a quality hunt.butch even has an open invitation to hunt with me anytime he feels the need,and i can trust him not to come back to these boards and twist or turn anything to make me or my club look bad and tell the truth.he aint bad for a yankee!


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## rick64

stiennen said:


> That is pretty mush how it works in Illinois. People take there hunting spots seriously and will shoot dogs on there property all year round. I do not have the heart to shoot a dog but there are plenty out there that do.


Illinois isn't the only state that would happen, in fact it's legal in some states to shoot a hound if you see it running big game.

I with you I couldn't do it, but I can see how it would be a deterrent to keep hounds off prohibited lands. 

I've hunted in Illinois and several other states that don't allow hounds for big game and there's a big difference in the deers behavior, especially late in the season. There are other factors that go into that like type of land, no use of rifles, limited gun seasons....regaurdless, if you don't want hounds on your property, *they shouldn't be there*.


----------



## cynic

chuckl said:


> they are actually on state forest lands that anybody with the permit can hunt.
> me and butch in the past have found some common ground and in the past he has hunted said lands and even though he is a die hard still hunter and im a die hard hound hunter we have found a common intrest and ive been willing to show him some of my secret spots to help my fellow hunter out.i know those woods like the back of my hand and would like to see butch take a nice buck off of it.its closer to home for him and he doesnt have to travel to the mountains of virginia to have a quality hunt.butch even has an open invitation to hunt with me anytime he feels the need,and i can trust him not to come back to these boards and twist or turn anything to make me or my club look bad and tell the truth.he aint bad for a yankee!


Yea but no matter what they are still yankees I have said it before and will stand behind my statement--- It doesn't bother me about hound hunting--- ONLY when it affects other hunters on PRIVATE PROPERTY that DO NOT participate in the practice.. I do feel that when the Private Property Rights get turned back in the favor of the property owners/lease holder that the restrictions will be better for those that hunt within the bounds with hounds.. The changes have little effect on those going out of their way to show others the respect they deserve...


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## rick64

vabass said:


> Cynic- I also live in VA and I can tell you the dog hunters here are causing the division between hunters. We had a proposal up that would have allowed bow hunting on Sundays on private property only and guess who showed up in Richmond with HSUS to fight against it? The dog hunters. Now they are sending stats to legislators to show how many more laws are broken by still hunters than dog hunters (which may be true only because they cant get trespassing violations). They are also trying to have bear removed from our big game stamp so that you have to purchase a seperate bear tag because they say too many still hunters are killing their bears. I used to not mind them but they are going to end hunting for all of us.


Don't say anything about the VBHA, Chuck will get mad 

That's one pile the VADHA has been able to step over, any comments Hokie?


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## cynic

rick64 said:


> Illinois isn't the only state that would happen, in fact it's legal in some states to shoot a hound if you see it running big game.
> 
> I with you I couldn't do it, but I can see how it would be a deterrent to keep hounds off prohibited lands.
> 
> I've hunted in Illinois and several other states that don't allow hounds for big game and there's a big difference in the deers behavior, especially late in the season. There are other factors that go into that like type of land, no use of rifles, limited gun seasons....regaurdless, if you don't want hounds on your property, *they shouldn't be there*.


Its a shame that the dog would have to suffer because of the owner, maybe if the owners were held more accountable for their actions this thread wouldn't even be here... Mutual respect can go a long way towards a meaningful understanding.... Respect my rights and I will do the same...


----------



## rick64

cynic said:


> It doesn't bother me about hound hunting--- ONLY when it affects other hunters on PRIVATE PROPERTY that DO NOT participate in the practice.. I do feel that when the Private Property Rights get turned back in the favor of the property owners/lease holder that the restrictions will be better for those that hunt within the bounds with hounds.. The changes have little effect on those going out of their way to show others the respect they deserve...


Couldn't have said it better! Eliminate the RTR and have a minimum contiguous acreage (1000?)to run deer hounds, try it for a few years and see what happens. Couldn't be anything but a improvement of what we have now.


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## cynic

rick64 said:


> Couldn't have said it better! Eliminate the RTR and have a minimum contiguous acreage (1000?)to run deer hounds, try it for a few years and see what happens. Couldn't be anything but a improvement of what we have now.


It has been a hard pill for some clubs around here to swallow but overall it has forced the clubs looking to protect the tradition to police the ranks of other clubs that are not abiding by the legislation.. The sad part of all of this is that for many it takes a LAW to demand respect for others rights.. I was taught that you must respects another mans property regardless of likes and dislikes---That respect goes for ALL


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## ButchA

chuckl said:


> they are actually on state forest lands that anybody with the permit can hunt.
> me and butch in the past have found some common ground and in the past he has hunted said lands and even though he is a die hard still hunter and im a die hard hound hunter we have found a common intrest and ive been willing to show him some of my secret spots to help my fellow hunter out.i know those woods like the back of my hand and would like to see butch take a nice buck off of it.its closer to home for him and he doesnt have to travel to the mountains of virginia to have a quality hunt.butch even has an open invitation to hunt with me anytime he feels the need,and i can trust him not to come back to these boards and twist or turn anything to make me or my club look bad and tell the truth.he aint bad for a yankee!


LOL!!! Hey Chuck, let me know when and where. As long as it's a Thursday or a Friday, I'm always ready! :shade:

I have always said that hunting with a hound dog might be interesting and something totally new - as long as it doesn't bother private landowners. I've hunted rabbits with my beagle mix and had a great time. But then, I've never hunted with a _pack_ of hounds.

To try to make peace amongst everyone, hunting with a hound dog could be useful in the wicked thick areas where you couldn't even get through to hang a treestand! I've told Chuck about areas I have _tried_ to hunt and had to turn around, because it was so unbelieveably thick - and I didn't carry a machete with me! :wink:


----------



## OHdeerhunter13

ButchA said:


> Once again, Moonkryket speaks the truth!! :hail:
> 
> I have spoken to other hunters from other states and their reactions speak loudly.
> 
> In Virginia, we can't hunt on Sunday. Reaction: _What? :mg: That's insane! Get that law changed. I can't imagine not hunting on a Sunday! :mmph:_
> 
> In Virginia (primarily eastern VA) they hunt deer with hound dogs. Reaction: _I've heard of that. I don't quite understand the reason, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Around here, if we see someone's dog chasing after a deer, we'll shoot the dog!_


Like stated above if I see a dog chasing a deer on my property here in Ohio I shoot the dog. Everyone of my hunting buddies do the same.


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## Moon

*I've never shot a dog and never will*

As a matter of fact, I have fed dogs for several days until their owners could be located/contacted.

2 years ago, one week after deer chasing season was over, I went down to the farm to check things out and when I got out of my car, I head a dog crying in distress. There is an old outdoor "johnny house"  still in the back yard. It must be 100 years old. It was filled in and had concrete poured into the hole a while back but it's still down about 4 feet deep and dry. The dog had somehow fallen into the hole and from the way she looked, she had been in the hole for several days. I put a small step ladder in the hole and pulled her out, fed her and gave her some water. I called the telephone # on the collar and the dog's owner answered. It took him 2 hours to get to my place to pick up his dog. He lived about 15 minutes away

I have to be careful during chasing season when walking across my back yard at night. I have to shovel their dogs' crap out of my yard on a regular basis.

I can sit on my front porch on Sunday afternoons and listen to deer being chased and actually see them being chased across the front fields. It never ends. I've had deer being chased through my yard at 3:00 am...............and I'm accused of being emotional. 

I, for one, don't need suggestions from anyone as to my approach and methods of doing what I can to end the deer chasing intrusion. I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for private land owners to reclaim their property rights (major surgery.............not a bandaid)


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> As a matter of fact, I have fed dogs for several days until their owners could be located/contacted.
> 
> 2 years ago, one week after deer chasing season was over, I went down to the farm to check things out and when I got out of my car, I head a dog crying in distress. There is an old outdoor "johnny house"  still in the back yard. It must be 100 years old. It was filled in and had concrete poured into the hole a while back but it's still down about 4 feet deep and dry. The dog had somehow fallen into the hole and from the way she looked, she had been in the hole for several days. I put a small step ladder in the hole and pulled her out, fed her and gave her some water. I called the telephone # on the collar and the dog's owner answered. It took him 2 hours to get to my place to pick up his dog. He lived about 15 minutes away
> 
> I have to be careful during chasing season when walking across my back yard at night. I have to shovel their dogs' crap out of my yard on a regular basis.
> 
> I can sit on my front porch on Sunday afternoons and listen to deer being chased and actually see them being chased across the front fields. It never ends. I've had deer being chased through my yard at 3:00 am...............and I'm accused of being emotional.
> 
> I, for one, don't need suggestions from anyone as to my approach and methods of doing what I can to end the deer chasing intrusion. I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for private land owners to reclaim their property rights (major surgery.............not a bandaid)


I've said this before and I will repeat it. more CPO'S are needed to better enforce current rules and regulations. As far as hound hunting ending, not in your lifetime will it.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> I've said this before and I will repeat it. more CPO'S are needed to better enforce current rules and regulations. As far as hound hunting ending, not in your lifetime will it.


LOL! ! What law is violated when they chase out of season and use the new "I'm chasing coyotes" line? We've been through this a 100 times. There is no law being violated because hunting dogs are exempt from running at large laws in virtually every county. The CPO can't do anything. This is just a pass the buck excuse trying to make dog chasers look like it's another persons fault for what they do. They know they can get away with it and they do.


And no one wants to end it. We want to protect and preserve the right for a property owner to have exclusive rights to his own lands. That means he decides who and what can come on it, not the state.


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## rick64

Hokieman said:


> I've said this before and I will repeat it. more CPO'S are needed to better enforce current rules and regulations. As far as hound hunting ending, not in your lifetime will it.


I'll agree with more CPO's, but we need better regulations to help prevent hounds from going on prohibited land and to assist the CPO's in doing their job.


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## cynic

Moonkryket said:


> As a matter of fact, I have fed dogs for several days until their owners could be located/contacted.
> 
> 2 years ago, one week after deer chasing season was over, I went down to the farm to check things out and when I got out of my car, I head a dog crying in distress. There is an old outdoor "johnny house"  still in the back yard. It must be 100 years old. It was filled in and had concrete poured into the hole a while back but it's still down about 4 feet deep and dry. The dog had somehow fallen into the hole and from the way she looked, she had been in the hole for several days. I put a small step ladder in the hole and pulled her out, fed her and gave her some water. I called the telephone # on the collar and the dog's owner answered. It took him 2 hours to get to my place to pick up his dog. He lived about 15 minutes away
> 
> I have to be careful during chasing season when walking across my back yard at night. I have to shovel their dogs' crap out of my yard on a regular basis.
> 
> I can sit on my front porch on Sunday afternoons and listen to deer being chased and actually see them being chased across the front fields. It never ends. I've had deer being chased through my yard at 3:00 am.......*........and I'm accused of being emotional.
> 
> I, for one, don't need suggestions from anyone as to my approach and methods of doing what I can to end the deer chasing intrusion.* I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for private land owners to reclaim their property rights (major surgery.............not a bandaid)


Something tells me that this was aimed towards me JMO but that would seem to be. So far from what I understand through these internet conversations, the approach that has been implemented in the past DID NOT work. It DID NOT work here either and then some less emotional person sought a different avenue without the banning and pretty much LEFT THE HUNTING ASPECT out and they changed the LAWS concerning property rights that in turn forced DNR to propose new restrictions and guidelines for the use of hounds for deer hunting giving clear violations to the transgressors... But hey, YOU are doing a good job of getting nothing accomplished all by yourself 

I do know this that the method you and some others are attempting didn't work here and hasn't thus far worked there hmmmm maybe trying a different approach might be in order, but who am I to suggest that maybe what worked here to achieve the results would work there after all some of you know it all and don't need suggestions from outsiders


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## chuckl

> LOL! ! What law is violated when they chase out of season and use the new "I'm chasing coyotes" line? We've been through this a 100 times. There is no law being violated because hunting dogs are exempt from running at large laws in virtually every county. The CPO can't do anything. This is just a pass the buck excuse trying to make dog chasers look like it's another persons fault for what they do. They know they can get away with it and they do.


what about the two that got tickets last year you crowed so much about the "new" interpertation of the law.remember YOU stated that the law no longer has a loophole in it as written.if the cpo's enforce it.

also i think you dont relize the coyote and fox chasing thing is not just a line.mine will run a fox or yote just as hard as a deer,but i also still and have stated there is no need for a 365 day chase season for fox but when brought up and when we tried to work on a shorter chase season the true mounted fox hunters went ballistic.maybe if you say your running fox's you have to be a member of the virginia fox hunters ass.and let me tell ya it aint easy being a member of that high brow group.


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## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> what about the two that got tickets last year you crowed so much about the "new" interpertation of the law.remember YOU stated that the law no longer has a loophole in it as written.if the cpo's enforce it.
> 
> also i think you dont relize the coyote and fox chasing thing is not just a line.mine will run a fox or yote just as hard as a deer,but i also still and have stated there is no need for a 365 day chase season for fox but when brought up and when we tried to work on a shorter chase season the true mounted fox hunters went ballistic.maybe if you say your running fox's you have to be a member of the virginia fox hunters ass.and let me tell ya it aint easy being a member of that high brow group.


LOL ! ! It's 'yotes now for the out so that law is done. 

What they may chase and what your preferred or target animal is used as an excuse to circumvent the law. Any dogger that raises/owns dogs wants them to be very specific on the target animal. There's a crap load of posts on SD about breaking deer hounds from chasing other animals. So now it's ok for your expensive deer hounds to chase fox and 'yotes? But somehow come fall you what, show your dog a pic of a deer and *without any legal deer training *he's going to be off an running and chasing deer? :embara: 

Don't tell me that come fall should your deer hounds take off on 'yotes or foxes the majority of the time it will go over well or you'll be invited to bring them back to hunt again. Besides we all know what happens to dogs that "don't run". Ask poster boy about that one. ukey: 


You must think everyone not a dog chaser is stupid and ignorant of your ways. Come on Chuck you need to tighten up your grip on your bag of BS. It's got a big hole in it.


----------



## chuckl

Cynic the problem with what your saying is it still allowes us to hunt with dogs and thats not what's on the agenda, total ban is.i personaly dont have a problem with some reform but until the total ban mentality is gone i will fight against it tooth and nail


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## chuckl

See here you dont have a clue again the true fox hunters want fox specific hounds,i on the other hand dont care!!!!!!!!!!
If they run a fox oh well we are overloaded with them because of the fox pen down the road.yotes? Againn we dont care,we are starting to get too many of them,so they chase a few,we kill a few



> don't tell me that come fall should your deer hounds take off on 'yotes or foxes the majority of the time it will go over well or you'll be invited to bring them back to hunt again.


dude you have no idea how good my dogs are.not only have i been invited back for the last um-teen years but i dont even pay club dues



> so now it's ok for your expensive deer hounds to chase fox and 'yotes?


duhhhh thats why foxpens are poping up all over va.again your azz backwards its the true fox hunters that want true fox hounds


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## chuckl

Annnnnnnd if you actually knew me or anything about me you would know i dont use it as an excuse because i dont run in the open during the off season.


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## chuckl

See this why we cant get anything done people like rick dont want reform instead of focusing the later part of my post and moving forward with thoughts and ideas


> but i also still and have stated there is no need for a 365 day chase season for fox but when brought up and when we tried to work on a shorter chase season the true mounted fox hunters went ballistic.maybe if you say your running fox's you have to be a member of the virginia fox hunters ass.and let me tell ya it aint easy being a member of that high brow group.


 he would rather post somthing to have the un-knowing think im full of crap 

cynic this why we cant move forward


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> Cynic the problem with what your saying is it still allowes us to hunt with dogs and thats not what's on the agenda, total ban is.i personaly dont have a problem with some reform but until the total ban mentality is gone i will fight against it tooth and nail


Chuck be honest, houndsmen(you included) have fought tooth and nail to not allow *ANY* changes, no reforms. How much grief did Hackett(I think Hokie called him Judas?) get for just suggesting changes to the RTR. 

If anyone says they don't want your dogs or you on their land, you first accuse them of being a card caring PETA member and then say they want to end all hunting with hounds.

Are you still pushing this big conspiracy theory to end all hunting with hounds? Tell us who's behind the push to end all hunting with hound? 

Doesn't matter what anyone post on these forums. Contact your state and local elected reps. Send in a little campaign donation, you'll be surprised how that gets their attention. Keep hammering away at. It's be said before that the come-here's(no offense Butch) are changing the demographics in SE VA and NC.


----------



## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> Annnnnnnd if you actually knew me or anything about me you would know i dont use it as an excuse because i dont run in the open during the off season.


That's what we keep hearing. No one including you runs at all. So why do I hear hounds during spring and early fall? And every time they run by they have a deer in front of them. I'm sorry I mean a white tailed 'yote.

Guess that email from Judas where he states they've trained illegally for the last 10 years is the only proof anyone ever ran out of season. And it was only him. No one else in all of Va has done it. Still you have to love the part in it where he claims the CPO said it was ok to do that. I wonder why they locked the gate then if it was ok?


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> what about the two that got tickets last year you crowed so much about the "new" interpertation of the law.remember YOU stated that the law no longer has a loophole in it as written.if the cpo's enforce it.
> 
> also i think you dont relize the coyote and fox chasing thing is not just a line.mine will run a fox or yote just as hard as a deer,but i also still and have stated there is no need for a 365 day chase season for fox but when brought up and when we tried to work on a shorter chase season the true mounted fox hunters went ballistic.maybe if you say your running fox's you have to be a member of the virginia fox hunters ass.and let me tell ya it aint easy being a member of that high brow group.


Your right about the Traditional Fox hunters, but don't bash them too much, houndsmen that hunt other game are riding on their coattails They would throw Deer Hunters under the bus before they would allow changes to their season. But to be fair they're hounds aren't running anything with fur, they're not the ones causing all the conflict and changes to the RTR or contiguous acreage wouldn't affect them.

I would like to see a survey of the Fox hunters and see how they would vote on running deer with hounds, you couldn't blame bowhunters for those results.


----------



## BigBirdVA

rick64 said:


> Your right about the Traditional Fox hunters, but don't bash them too much, houndsmen that hunt other game are riding on their coattails They would throw Deer Hunters under the bus before they would allow changes to their season. But to be fair they're hounds aren't running anything with fur, they're not the ones causing all the conflict and changes to the RTR or contiguous acreage wouldn't affect them.
> 
> I would like to see a survey of the Fox hunters and see how they would vote on running deer with hounds, you couldn't blame bowhunters for those results.


I keep hearing fox hunting. I've seen 1 authentic fox hunt with horses and red coats my whole life in SE VA. The rest of the time the "fox hounds" are chasing deer. 

Funny I've never seen a truck with a dog box on the back, a TV antenna on the roof with a "XXXX Fox Club" sticker on it. Always see a deer sticker on those trucks. But really they're fox hunters inside. 

What's comical is they really expect people to buy that story.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> I keep hearing fox hunting. I've seen 1 authentic fox hunt with horses and red coats my whole life in SE VA. The rest of the time the "fox hounds" are chasing deer.
> 
> Funny I've never seen a truck with a dog box on the back, a TV antenna on the roof with a "XXXX Fox Club" sticker on it. Always see a deer sticker on those trucks. But really they're fox hunters inside.
> 
> What's comical is they really expect people to buy that story.


Whats really comical is that a club could be having a feild trial fox hunt with a permit from DGIF and you wouldn't know the differnce between the two and think their deer chasing. LOL you putts


----------



## rick64

BigBirdVA said:


> I keep hearing fox hunting. I've seen 1 authentic fox hunt with horses and red coats my whole life in SE VA. The rest of the time the "fox hounds" are chasing deer.
> 
> Funny I've never seen a truck with a dog box on the back, a TV antenna on the roof with a "XXXX Fox Club" sticker on it. Always see a deer sticker on those trucks. But really they're fox hunters inside.
> 
> What's comical is they really expect people to buy that story.


There's plenty of them(Trad. FH's) around me in Loudoun, Fauquier, Rappahannock, Culpeper, Madison, Ablemarle. I don't know why Chuck is so down on them, I've been around them my whole life and never had problems with them. Most of them are just in a different tax bracket and there's no crime in that. They do have a little in common with the houndsmen that run bear. The think they should be the only ones allowed to run Foxes. They're against any gun season, trapping, Fox pens....


----------



## rick64

Hokieman said:


> Whats really comical is that a club could be having a feild trial fox hunt with a permit from DGIF and you wouldn't know the differnce between the two and think their deer chasing. LOL you putts


Name calling? No what's more comical is hounds that switch from Foxes to Bear to Deer.....:darkbeer:

How many Coonhounds do you have(keep) that run trash? I'm no expert like you and Chuck, but we alway broke the dogs to whatever game we intended to use them for. We wouldn't keep a rabbit Beagle that couldn't be broke from deer or Foxes, same for Coonhounds and never had a problem with a pointer running on posted land. 

Never heard much about dropping the dogs and whatever they run is what your hunting that day, but that's no big deal to me if the hounds stay off prohibited land.

Same with *LEGAL* Field Trials, I don't understand why you mention them. I don't hear complaints about them and I don't see any problem with them as long as the dogs stay off prohibited land.


----------



## Hokieman

rick64 said:


> Name calling? No what's more comical is hounds that switch from Foxes to Bear to Deer.....:darkbeer:
> 
> How many Coonhounds do you have(keep) that run trash? I'm no expert like you and Chuck, but we alway broke the dogs to whatever game we intended to use them for. We wouldn't keep a rabbit Beagle that couldn't be broke from deer or Foxes, same for Coonhounds and never had a problem with a pointer running on posted land.
> 
> Never heard much about dropping the dogs and whatever they run is what your hunting that day, but that's no big deal to me if the hounds stay off prohibited land.
> 
> Same with *LEGAL* Field Trials, I don't understand why you mention them. I don't hear complaints about them and I don't see any problem with them as long as the dogs stay off prohibited land.


How would you know from a legal feild trial to a pack of dogs running a deer?


----------



## rick64

Hokieman said:


> How would you know from a legal feild trial to a pack of dogs running a deer?


*A permit* http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/forms/PERM/PERM-027.pdf, and again doesn't matter to me what they are running if they stay off prohibited land, but since you brought it up are Field Trials for Deer hounds allowed in VA? Don't see it on the permit app. This is on there "It is unlawful to hold field trials in Virginia without first obtaining appropriate permission from the landowner(s) on whose property the trials will be held." The way I read this, if the hound go onto posted lands your breaking the terms of the permit. Maybe the state needs to keep a closer eye on Field Trials and they're not allowed from 6/1-7/31.


----------



## Hokieman

rick64 said:


> *A permit* http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/forms/PERM/PERM-027.pdf, and again doesn't matter to me what they are running if they stay off prohibited land, but since you brought it up are Field Trials for Deer hounds allowed in VA? Don't see it on the permit app. This is on there "It is unlawful to hold field trials in Virginia without first obtaining appropriate permission from the landowner(s) on whose property the trials will be held." The way I read this, if the hound go onto posted lands your breaking the terms of the permit. Maybe the state needs to keep a closer eye on Field Trials and they're not allowed from 6/1-7/31.


I guess you would need more CPO's to enforce it. since their is one or two per county and some has to work an area of counties.


----------



## Hokieman

Man saves dog by sucking snake venom from his nose
Fri May 22, 3:04 pm ET

CHEYENNE, Wyo. – A man said he saved his dog's life after sucking venom from a rattlesnake bite out of the animal's nose. Bobby Jenkins said he began feeling ill after getting his dog, Tank, to a veterinarian. He went to the hospital and received a dose of antivenin.

In all, Jenkins needed four vials of antivenin at a cost of $3,500 per vial.

Meanwhile, Jenkins said his dog's head swelled up to three times its normal size. Tank had been bitten after running under some equipment on the family ranch.

The dog also received antivenin and both Jenkins and his dog have recovered.

___

Information from: Casper Star-Tribune - Casper, http://www.trib.com


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Whats really comical is that a club could be having a feild trial fox hunt with a permit from DGIF and you wouldn't know the differnce between the two and think their deer chasing. LOL you putts


If they were having a field trial all the hounds would place. Since there's usually only 3-4 running around they're all winners ! LOL Gee where are the judges at? 

More dog chasing BS. But that tales different and it's nice change for some comic relief. HM you're just too funny !


----------



## rick64

Hokieman said:


> I guess you would need more CPO's to enforce it. since their is one or two per county and some has to work an area of counties.


I think we agree on that point, look at Post #53 The first time I had to call for a CPO last season- had to come from 2 counties away, took around 1.5 hour to get there. Had 3 hunters with ATV's, guns, and hounds trespassing.


----------



## rick64

Hokieman said:


> Man saves dog by sucking snake venom from his nose
> Fri May 22, 3:04 pm ET
> 
> CHEYENNE, Wyo. – A man said he saved his dog's life after sucking venom from a rattlesnake bite out of the animal's nose. Bobby Jenkins said he began feeling ill after getting his dog, Tank, to a veterinarian. He went to the hospital and received a dose of antivenin.
> 
> In all, Jenkins needed four vials of antivenin at a cost of $3,500 per vial.
> 
> Meanwhile, Jenkins said his dog's head swelled up to three times its normal size. Tank had been bitten after running under some equipment on the family ranch.
> 
> The dog also received antivenin and both Jenkins and his dog have recovered.
> 
> ___
> 
> Information from: Casper Star-Tribune - Casper, http://www.trib.com


I love my pointers, but at $3500 a vial, I think my wife would let both of us go.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Wow! 



> Dog Shoots And Kills Owner
> HOUSTON (AP) ―
> 
> A hunting dog apparently stepped on a loaded shotgun in the bed of his owner's pickup truck, firing a fatal blast into the man's thigh during a goose hunt, officials said.
> 
> Perry Alvin Price III died Saturday at a hospital from severe blood loss from his femoral artery shortly after the freak accident in southeast Texas.
> 
> Chambers County sheriff's investigators said Price, 46, was hunting on a lease near Stowell, about 60 miles east of Houston, when he shot down a goose.
> 
> Price then set the gun in the back of his truck and was about to open the tailgate to release his tracking dog when the shotgun fired, investigators said. The blast penetrated the truck's tailgate before hitting Price.


----------



## BigBirdVA

rick64 said:


> I think we agree on that point, look at Post #53 The first time I had to call for a CPO last season- had to come from 2 counties away, took around 1.5 hour to get there. Had 3 hunters with ATV's, guns, and hounds trespassing.


Must have been that 1 out of 90. :mg:


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> If they were having a field trial all the hounds would place. Since there's usually only 3-4 running around they're all winners ! LOL Gee where are the judges at?
> 
> More dog chasing BS. But that tales different and it's nice change for some comic relief. HM you're just too funny !


They do say laughter is the best medicine. I hope it made your day.


----------



## Moon

*Cynic*

Nothing aimed at you. Don't flatter yourself or be so vain. I was referring to killing dogs which is aimed at those that, for some odd reason,  want their land to themselves and not shared with everyone that has a dog box and "TV" antennae on their truck. 

As to having more game officals or county police to remedy the deer chasing problems, there is no way that will ever happen. It's that far out of control and the private property trampling by dogs is such that a private land owner has absolutely no means to keep them off his property unless he puts a fence around it. You can't catch the dogs because they run like hell from you so you don't know who owns them. No, the only way this nightmare will end is for sensible laws to be enacted and have the dog owners abide by them....................yeah, right!!! Fat chance. 

HM, we shall see if Virginia's land owners are forced to tolerate what you call "hunting" for years to come. It's not going to happen. You keep on defending the indefensible and see what it gets you.


----------



## Hokieman

Moonkryket said:


> Nothing aimed at you. Don't flatter yourself or be so vain. I was referring to killing dogs which is aimed at those that, for some odd reason,  want their land to themselves and not shared with everyone that has a dog box and "TV" antennae on their truck.
> 
> As to having more game officals or county police to remedy the deer chasing problems, there is no way that will ever happen. It's that far out of control and the private property trampling by dogs is such that a private land owner has absolutely no means to keep them off his property unless he puts a fence around it. You can't catch the dogs because they run like hell from you so you don't know who owns them. No, the only way this nightmare will end is for sensible laws to be enacted and have the dog owners abide by them....................yeah, right!!! Fat chance.
> 
> HM, we shall see if Virginia's land owners are forced to tolerate what you call "hunting" for years to come. It's not going to happen. You keep on defending the indefensible and see what it gets you.


Ok lets say more laws are added. The honest hound hunters will abide the burden of new laws and the scoundrels who trespass and interupts your hunt will continue to do so because he/she knows that it's one in a million if he/she gets caught, why because not enough cpo's to enforce current laws much less new ones.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Ok lets say more laws are added. The honest hound hunters will abide the burden of new laws and the scoundrels who trespass and interupts your hunt will continue to do so because he/she knows that it's one in a million if he/she gets caught, why because not enough cpo's to enforce current laws much less new ones.


There would be more of a deterrent for the bad ones not to do it if there was a way to stop them. As it stands now hounds and their owners can come on lands they're not welcome on. People don't bother with trying to stop it or report it because they know it's useless and a waste of time to even bother with it. 

Believe me if there was a no hound on others lands law that 1 in a million would be reversed and it would be 1 in a million they would get away with it. 

There are lots more police then CPOs and if it was a crime you could call them for help too until a CPO could arrive.

More justification for a hound hunters or hound club license and dog use fees to let them pay for the problems _they _create. If I have to pay VDGIF more to shoot an arrow you should pay to use a hound. Hounds cause a lot more issues than any of my arrows ever have.



Oh the comic relief......... just about everything you post is a joke. Including this one.


----------



## ButchA

You know guys.... I've had some time throughout the night here at work to really do some thinking. Here's what I'd do, given this scenario:

Let's say I have a pack of 4 hound dogs that are well fed, well mannered, and have radio collars on them - in case they get too far away and out of sight.

*** If it's bow season, I won't run the dogs.
*** If it's black powder season, I won't run the the dogs either.
*** However, let's say I scouted some areas on public land (state forest) east of the Blue Ridge that is incredibly thick. There is virtually no way to get through it without an Army tank, ha ha ha... I use my Garmin GPS to mark waypoints and map out the area, - but most importantly, the land owner boundries.
*** Prior to the season, I don't want to disturb the land owners who's land butts up against the state forest, so with my GPS coordinates that I gathered, I punch it all up into some topo/mapping software and get a good detailed layout of the land. I can see where I can go, and where I can't go.
*** When it comes time to hunt with the dogs during general firearms, I take the 4 hound dogs with me and we park in the state forest area. Then we head into the thick area where the deer are and where it's impossible to get through without a machete. The dogs will be able to run the deer out of there. Hopefully the deer will circle back around in an attempt to lose the dogs, right where I'll be.

So now, in review of the scenario... Who am I bothering? Nobody. Why? Because it's not bow season and it's not black powder season. It is general firearms season on public land within a state forest east of the blue ridge, and I already know the boundries from previous scouting. The 4 hound dogs are also trained enough to come back when they're called or whistled to.


----------



## Michigan Bob

Oh boy! Where to start, first I feel sorry for you who live where running deer with dogs is legal. But if its leagal I would live with it, or find a way to work with hound hunters in the area. Here in Michigan it is illeagal, and I like the quiet of the woods during bow season. But Rabbit season and bird seasons do run the same time and I have had people hunt the same public land as me. What can you do, The people I have incountered have been good people and we worked things out by talking and seem to get a long pretty well. But I will not rag on some one for thier choice of hunting as long as it is leagal. Good luck but try and manage the anger before it gets you in trouble.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> There would be more of a deterrent for the bad ones not to do it if there was a way to stop them. As it stands now hounds and their owners can come on lands they're not welcome on. People don't bother with trying to stop it or report it because they know it's useless and a waste of time to even bother with it.
> 
> Believe me if there was a no hound on others lands law that 1 in a million would be reversed and it would be 1 in a million they would get away with it.
> 
> There are lots more police then CPOs and if it was a crime you could call them for help too until a CPO could arrive.
> 
> More justification for a hound hunters or hound club license and dog use fees to let them pay for the problems _they _create. If I have to pay VDGIF more to shoot an arrow you should pay to use a hound. Hounds cause a lot more issues than any of my arrows ever have.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh the comic relief......... just about everything you post is a joke. Including this one.


Rick I'm not in for condeming all for what a few does. There are laws on the books now that will protect landowners and ticket trespassers. ask a lawyer and stop the bs whinning. arrest the one that is causing the problem on your land and leave everyone else the hell alone. nuff said.

I don't know why this even relates to you because you lease the land you hunt off of or hunt family land that isn't big enough to grow corn on.


----------



## cynic

ButchA said:


> You know guys.... I've had some time throughout the night here at work to really do some thinking. Here's what I'd do, given this scenario:
> 
> Let's say I have a pack of 4 hound dogs that are well fed, well mannered, and have radio collars on them - in case they get too far away and out of sight.
> 
> *** If it's bow season, I won't run the dogs.
> *** If it's black powder season, I won't run the the dogs either.
> *** However, let's say I scouted some areas on public land (state forest) east of the Blue Ridge that is incredibly thick. There is virtually no way to get through it without an Army tank, ha ha ha... I use my Garmin GPS to mark waypoints and map out the area, - but most importantly, the land owner boundries.
> *** Prior to the season, I don't want to disturb the land owners who's land butts up against the state forest, so with my GPS coordinates that I gathered, I punch it all up into some topo/mapping software and get a good detailed layout of the land. I can see where I can go, and where I can't go.
> *** When it comes time to hunt with the dogs during general firearms, I take the 4 hound dogs with me and we park in the state forest area. Then we head into the thick area where the deer are and where it's impossible to get through without a machete. The dogs will be able to run the deer out of there. Hopefully the deer will circle back around in an attempt to lose the dogs, right where I'll be.
> 
> *So now, in review of the scenario... Who am I bothering? Nobody. Why? Because it's not bow season and it's not black powder season. It is general firearms season on public land within a state forest east of the blue ridge*, and I already know the boundries from previous scouting. The 4 hound dogs are also trained enough to come back when they're called or whistled to.


The problem is that just because it is not Bow or ML the other hunters have the right to hunt with those weapons EVEN in general gun season.. They are not restricted before or during general gun.. Now as to the rest, if you can do so without your hounds interferring with the other hunters OUTSIDE the boundaries ---- So be it--- The problem arises when that same consideration is not extend to those who OWN/LEASE Paying for the privacy from other hunters... but it does sound like you show more consideration and concern than other not withstanding that you think that during general gun that OTHERS should be affected because it isn't their season... Hunting season starts on a specific date and ends on a specific date choice of weapon only allows for specific times within those dates at no time should another hunters hunt be affected on private property based on what YOU do.. Just my opinion... I don't hunt with hounds, I don't despise hounds I despise hunters that will not accept the fact they HAVE NO RIGHT to be on PRIVATE PROPERTY uninvited PERIOD----


----------



## cynic

Hokieman said:


> Rick I'm not in for condeming all for what a few does. There are laws on the books now that will protect landowners and ticket trespassers. ask a lawyer and stop the bs whinning. arrest the one that is causing the problem on your land and leave everyone else the hell alone. nuff said.
> *
> I don't know why this even relates to you because you lease the land you hunt off of or hunt family land that isn't big enough to grow corn on*.


Several things here Rick leasing the land or hunting on private lands is exactly why hound hunters trespassing directly affect him.. A hunter creating a sanctuary on a small parcel deserves the same respect or more in my opinion than the hound hunter with thousands... It seem that Rick has made a place for HIM to hunt, not for other to run the game off of for their benefit of hunting.. Seems all to many time other hunters just can't stand when a fellow hunter manages a small parcel and achieves better results than large tract holders


----------



## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Rick I'm not in for condeming all for what a few does. There are laws on the books now that will protect landowners and ticket trespassers. ask a lawyer and stop the bs whinning. arrest the one that is causing the problem on your land and leave everyone else the hell alone. nuff said.
> 
> I don't know why this even relates to you because you lease the land you hunt off of or hunt family land that isn't big enough to grow corn on.


First it doesn't matter if I lease or have permission or whatever. The dog chasers are training on deer out of season. There is no law for illegal training out of season that can be used when they claim it's 'yotes or other BS excuses. We've been through this over and over. I called everyone with a phone and they said nothing we can do WITH THE PRESENT LAWS. Just because you think or say a solution exists doesn't make it so. Pinch yourself, wake up and get back to the real world. You know it and I know there is no solution at the present time. Just a lame attempt to try to discredit what I say.


For those that haven't seen this here's the reply from the CPO when I emailed him after phone calls to the 1-800 number went no where.

Also called the county AC and they said nothing they can do, it's a game dept issue. 



> My name is Robert Everidge, and I am the Game Warden Supervisor for the area you have described in your previous e-mails. The running of dogs out of the hunting season has become more and more popular within the District these days. As the Communications Officer has advised, it's close to impossible to stop this from occurring in the off season. The fox season, with landowner permission can be open all year and the dogs can't read posted signs. We, as Game Wardens check these groups weekly and try to keep them off the roadways and out of posted property with their vehicles.
> 
> The only recourse to the problem would have to start with our Game Department board and the Legislature of Virginia. Our board information is available on our web site at [email protected] .
> 
> Thank You for your concern to this problem. Please let me know if you have any questions or if I can assist you in the future.
> 
> Sgt. Robert Everidge
> Department Of Game and Inland Fisheries
> 757-810-6662 Cell
> 888-556-6741 Pager
> 
> ----------second response ------------------
> 
> No Sir. *I'm sure they are running deer. *They tell us they are fox dogs, or they got out of the pen, or any number of other things. *I don't have any thing I can tell you that will help without a change in the seasons or laws.
> *
> Thanks, Sgt. Everidge



Now nuff is said.


And a FYI for you since you think you know everything the land I lease did have corn on it last year. Well over 100 acres of corn.


----------



## BigBirdVA

ButchA said:


> You know guys.... I've had some time throughout the night here at work to really do some thinking. Here's what I'd do, given this scenario:
> 
> Let's say I have a pack of 4 hound dogs that are well fed, well mannered, and have radio collars on them - in case they get too far away and out of sight.
> 
> *** If it's bow season, I won't run the dogs.
> *** If it's black powder season, I won't run the the dogs either.
> *** However, let's say I scouted some areas on public land (state forest) east of the Blue Ridge that is incredibly thick. There is virtually no way to get through it without an Army tank, ha ha ha... I use my Garmin GPS to mark waypoints and map out the area, - but most importantly, the land owner boundries.
> *** Prior to the season, I don't want to disturb the land owners who's land butts up against the state forest, so with my GPS coordinates that I gathered, I punch it all up into some topo/mapping software and get a good detailed layout of the land. I can see where I can go, and where I can't go.
> *** When it comes time to hunt with the dogs during general firearms, I take the 4 hound dogs with me and we park in the state forest area. Then we head into the thick area where the deer are and where it's impossible to get through without a machete. The dogs will be able to run the deer out of there. Hopefully the deer will circle back around in an attempt to lose the dogs, right where I'll be.
> 
> So now, in review of the scenario... Who am I bothering? Nobody. Why? Because it's not bow season and it's not black powder season. It is general firearms season on public land within a state forest east of the blue ridge, and I already know the boundries from previous scouting. The 4 hound dogs are also trained enough to come back when they're called or whistled to.


That scenario nothing is wrong with it. It's the out of season training and the dogs all over during season that are the problems. On their land they can do as they wish. On land I lease they need to stay off if not welcome. 


The other thing you said is training of the dogs. That requires effort and that's another skill that's lacking for 99% of them.


----------



## cynic

BigBirdVA said:


> And a FYI for you since you think you know everything the land I lease did have corn on it last year. Well over 100 acres of corn.


It should not matter if there is a crop or not the defining characteristic is "Is it public or PRIVATE" it is no ones business how or what I plant or don't plant.. It is really not their concern if it even holds deer.. It wouldn't matter if I never killed a single deer in any season--- Unless others have permission they need to stay the hell out


----------



## BigBirdVA

cynic said:


> It should not matter if there is a crop or not the defining characteristic is "Is it public or PRIVATE" it is no ones business how or what I plant or don't plant.. It is really not their concern if it even holds deer.. It wouldn't matter if I never killed a single deer in any season--- Unless others have permission they need to stay the hell out


It doesn't matter. And most dog chasers lease the land they run on too. But that's different. It's only a desperate attempt by the chasers to try to make what anyone says not a valid point or negate the facts. They think if they keep saying it everyone will believe it. It worked for years so why not keep trying? Many know better and more will before it's over.


----------



## cynic

BigBirdVA said:


> It doesn't matter. And most dog chasers lease the land they run on too. But that's different. It's only a desperate attempt by the chasers to try to make what anyone says not a valid point or negate the facts. They think if they keep saying it everyone will believe it. It worked for years so why not keep trying? Many know better and more will before it's over.


Reading post here from both side of the argument--- I see why you guys have such a problem... Some think that they can run on YOUR property because it isn't bowseason, some think they can run on your property because they "AREN"T" hunting deer.. The problem is they should under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE be on YOUR property, regardless of what they are doing... Seems to me if they were respectful and worried about YOUR property they wouldn't be doing anything that would look negative in the public eye--- THEY need to either police themselves or suffer the consequences as they do here.. Plain and simple I pay my mortgage and my taxes trespassers will not be tolerated... The county tax collector has a listing of ALL property owners and that can be used to contact the owner before trespassing... Tax collector office has both the owner name AND contact information--- There is NO excuse--- If the property owner feels that he/she does not want you on THEIR property, next time you loose the hounds make sure they do not go there..


----------



## Pine Tag

I've been following all of this since the beginning and I have to say, I think the best solution would be to offer a hound training season for deer. I suggested this to VDGIF as well as the SAC group looking into hound hunting. I'm not sure why it was not met with more reception but to me it would solve most of the problems. Granted, it wouldn't keep dogs off someone's land during gun season but it would give the bow/ML hunters their season's without interruption and I think that's where the largest portion of complaints are coming from. I think that's the best compromise. Hound hunters would still be able to run during gun season and the designated training season and stand/still hunters would have 6 weeks of un-ineterrupted hunting time. Those found running outside of the training dates would have to pay a hefty fine. Everyone who still hunts durng firearms season would have to learn to live with the dog hunters because after all, it is a compromise. I suggested a dual training season with dates as follows: 1)first Sat following the end of hunting season - March 1, and 2) June 1 - August 31. These dates wouldn't interfere with any of the major hunting seasons. IMO people could release their dogs in the evening during the summer training and let them run during the cooler night hours so as not to overheat the dogs or put too much pressure on deer during the heat of the day. What do y'all think?


----------



## Hokieman

cynic said:


> Several things here Rick leasing the land or hunting on private lands is exactly why hound hunters trespassing directly affect him.. A hunter creating a sanctuary on a small parcel deserves the same respect or more in my opinion than the hound hunter with thousands... It seem that Rick has made a place for HIM to hunt, not for other to run the game off of for their benefit of hunting.. Seems all to many time other hunters just can't stand when a fellow hunter manages a small parcel and achieves better results than large tract holders


I was wrong in making that statement. I am a coonhunter and don't deer dog hunt. However from time to time I have been a stander while this went on. many clubs are throught virginia who do it without any problems and some clubs do it anyway they want. why should those that do it correctly be punished for others. Yes a system needs to be put in place but not at the cost of those or the other hunting dog owners who prefer other game.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> And a FYI for you since you think you know everything the land I lease did have corn on it last year. Well over 100 acres of corn.


I was fishing Rick and forgot to leave you a quarter to call someone who cares.


----------



## Hokieman

cynic said:


> It should not matter if there is a crop or not the defining characteristic is "Is it public or PRIVATE" it is no ones business how or what I plant or don't plant.. It is really not their concern if it even holds deer.. It wouldn't matter if I never killed a single deer in any season--- Unless others have permission they need to stay the hell out


I've read your book for the last time. I respect all landowners and hunt ethically. Everyone here gets it already that you don't condem dog huntng until they cross your boundary line. write a new book pal this one isn't selling anymore.


----------



## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> It doesn't matter. And most dog chasers lease the land they run on too. But that's different. It's only a desperate attempt by the chasers to try to make what anyone says not a valid point or negate the facts. They think if they keep saying it everyone will believe it. It worked for years so why not keep trying? Many know better and more will before it's over.


Rick I'm not trying to do that. I am saying don't punish all hunting dog owners in Virginia for what is going on where you hunt. or where someone else hunts. If you got a problem with a person or a club then go after them not all hunting dog owners in Virgina and their methods. creating new laws that effect them is wrong. sending the ones causing the problems to you weither a club or a person to jail or whatever is the correct method.


----------



## Moon

*Pine tag*

They chase deer anytime they want to year round now. Why do you think they would limit themselves to a specific time to run their dogs over others' property? They don't abide by existing laws more often than not so there is no reason to believe they would pay any attention to any new laws.
There aren't enough law enforcement officers to police what they do now anyway so it's all a waste of time until some drastic restrictive measures are taken.

I agree with Bird that, in the meantime, they should have to pay to do what they do..................especially those guys. It's quite amazing that they get a free ride while bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters have to pay extra to sit up a tree It should be obvious to anyone, except those guys of course, that some things must be done about numerous aspects of deer chasing in SE Virginia:

Free ride - Intrusive on others' property (dogs know no boundaries) - harrassing and possibly killing wildlife and fawns that are only weeks or days old - right to walk onto private property with the excuse of looking for dogs (that should not be there in the first place)

Anyone that thinks that calling an enforcement officer to catch anyone responsible, or remedy any of the above while it is actually happening, is kidding himself.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Don't want to punish all. But take poster boy up until SAC he ran out of season. And when his own club members asked he said TS to them. So what's a stranger or neighbor going to get? Again we've been through this. He ran and the other adjoining clubs trained illegally. It's an epidemic in many areas. 


The whole SAC thing calmed them down for a while but it's slowly going back to how it was. That's the whole point. It's going to be more or less like it is until they're forced to comply or there's a legal deterrent available keep it under control. If it was a once in a while thing we all could live with it. It's not. By fall we'll be back to where we were pre-SAC.


----------



## Moon

*Hm*

You keep harping with the same old song and dance - convict those doing wrong and leave the others alone BS and you know that it's virtually impossible to even determine whose responsible for most of the stuff that goes on effecting private property owners.

BTW, I in no way think rabbit, bird, waterfowl or racoon hunters, using dogs, should be affected by what's going on with deer chasers. It's time for their free ride to be curtailed.


----------



## ButchA

BigBirdVA said:


> That scenario nothing is wrong with it. It's the out of season training and the dogs all over during season that are the problems. On their land they can do as they wish. On land I lease they need to stay off if not welcome.
> 
> 
> The other thing you said is training of the dogs. That requires effort and that's another skill that's lacking for 99% of them.


That's what I was thinking about also, when I came up with that scenario. I don't hunt with dogs (except rabbit hunt with my beagle mix). I just started thinking and _putting the shoe on the other foot_, as the saying goes, and imagined myself as a deer dog hunter. How could I do it without causing problems for other hunters? How could I do it without getting a private land owner hot under the collar? If I see a POSTED sign, that means myself and my dogs are not welcome, so I stay out. I would not drop off the dogs on someone else's property, then quickly rush over to the other side of the property - in hopes of getting a deer. Why? Because to me, it's wrong. Those 4 hound dogs (in my previous scenario) and myself should act as a team and work together. Not just dump them off and let them run amok without concern.

*Edit*: There is a right way to hunt with dogs and a wrong way. If I hunted deer with dogs, I'd do it the right way. I have talked to Chuck on the phone. He's a great guy and he does it the right way. Another guy, Justin (Eng40sqd on another forum) also does it the right way.


----------



## rick64

ButchA said:


> You know guys.... I've had some time throughout the night here at work to really do some thinking. Here's what I'd do, given this scenario:
> 
> Let's say I have a pack of 4 hound dogs that are well fed, well mannered, and have radio collars on them - in case they get too far away and out of sight.
> 
> *** If it's bow season, I won't run the dogs.
> *** If it's black powder season, I won't run the the dogs either.
> *** However, let's say I scouted some areas on public land (state forest) east of the Blue Ridge that is incredibly thick. There is virtually no way to get through it without an Army tank, ha ha ha... I use my Garmin GPS to mark waypoints and map out the area, - but most importantly, the land owner boundries.
> *** Prior to the season, I don't want to disturb the land owners who's land butts up against the state forest, so with my GPS coordinates that I gathered, I punch it all up into some topo/mapping software and get a good detailed layout of the land. I can see where I can go, and where I can't go.
> *** When it comes time to hunt with the dogs during general firearms, I take the 4 hound dogs with me and we park in the state forest area. Then we head into the thick area where the deer are and where it's impossible to get through without a machete. The dogs will be able to run the deer out of there. Hopefully the deer will circle back around in an attempt to lose the dogs, right where I'll be.
> 
> So now, in review of the scenario... Who am I bothering? Nobody. Why? Because it's not bow season and it's not black powder season. It is general firearms season on public land within a state forest east of the blue ridge, and I already know the boundries from previous scouting. The 4 hound dogs are also trained enough to come back when they're called or whistled to.


Butch the the scenario you present isn't what is causing the controversy. It's legal to run hounds during the gen. firearms season on some public land and private land if you have *permission. I don't have a problem with the hunter that does everything according to the law and within reason to prevent his dogs from going onto prohibited land. Things happen, contact the land owner/lessee and get permission to retrieve the dogs. In the rare cases that the landowner/lessee refuses permission, that's his choice he owns/leases the land. Your lost dogs are nobody's fault but yours.

The real questions are:

How much land do you need to have a reasonable expectation that your hounds won't cross onto private land?

Should the landowner/lessee or houndsmen be punished when hounds cross property lines?(Would you cast your hounds if you thought they might go where you couldn't retrieve them?)

I think most agree that Deer hounds and to a lesser extent Bear hounds are causing most of the issues. Hounds could be registered/license to the game they are used for. If your running Deer hounds in Oct., easy citation for the CPO or local LE.

I was even in agreement that there needs to be a legal training season for Deer hounds, until J. Hackett pushed for it during Bow season and without any changes to the current regs.*


----------



## rick64

Michigan Bob said:


> Oh boy! Where to start, first I feel sorry for you who live where running deer with dogs is legal. But if its legal I would live with it, or find a way to work with hound hunters in the area. Here in Michigan it is illeagal, and I like the quiet of the woods during bow season. But Rabbit season and bird seasons do run the same time and I have had people hunt the same public land as me. What can you do, The people I have incountered have been good people and we worked things out by talking and seem to get a long pretty well. But I will not rag on some one for thier choice of hunting as long as it is leagal. Good luck but try and manage the anger before it gets you in trouble.


Bob there's no comparison between Bird dogs and Deer hounds. How many broke Bird dogs have you seen running all day out of site of their owner.

Public land isn't the big issue, it's private land. 

If you were hunting private land in Michigan, what would you think if 6-12 hounds where running around you and then their owners could go *anywhere* at *anytime* to recover them. Do you think that would ruin your hunt?

They could have only had permission to hunt 1 acre of land and they could have released any number of hounds without breaking a law in VA.


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## rick64

Pine Tag said:


> I've been following all of this since the beginning and I have to say, I think the best solution would be to offer a hound training season for deer. I suggested this to VDGIF as well as the SAC group looking into hound hunting. I'm not sure why it was not met with more reception but to me it would solve most of the problems. Granted, it wouldn't keep dogs off someone's land during gun season but it would give the bow/ML hunters their season's without interruption and I think that's where the largest portion of complaints are coming from. I think that's the best compromise. Hound hunters would still be able to run during gun season and the designated training season and stand/still hunters would have 6 weeks of un-ineterrupted hunting time. Those found running outside of the training dates would have to pay a hefty fine. Everyone who still hunts durng firearms season would have to learn to live with the dog hunters because after all, it is a compromise. I suggested a dual training season with dates as follows: 1)first Sat following the end of hunting season - March 1, and 2) June 1 - August 31. These dates wouldn't interfere with any of the major hunting seasons. IMO people could release their dogs in the evening during the summer training and let them run during the cooler night hours so as not to overheat the dogs or put too much pressure on deer during the heat of the day. What do y'all think?


Pine I've address the part about a training season in another post, the problem is hounds going onto private land.


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## ButchA

rick64 said:


> Butch the the scenario you present isn't what is causing the controversy. It's legal to run hounds during the gen. firearms season on some public land and private land if you have *permission*. I don't have a problem with the hunter that does everything according to the law and within reason to prevent his dogs from going onto prohibited land. Things happen, contact the land owner/lessee and get permission to retrieve the dogs. In the rare cases that the landowner/lessee refuses permission, that's his choice he owns/leases the land. Your lost dogs are nobody's fault but yours.


Exactly... It's all a matter of ethics. I guess some of the "rogue hunters" must know of a loophole or something in the regs, that lets them to whatever they want, however they want, and whenever they want. Or perhaps, they just don't care...

To me, there has to be some respect shown to other hunters and private land owners.


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## Pine Tag

Moonkryket said:


> You keep harping with the same old song and dance - convict those doing wrong and leave the others alone BS and you know that it's virtually impossible to even determine whose responsible for most of the stuff that goes on effecting private property owners.
> 
> BTW, I in no way think rabbit, bird, waterfowl or racoon hunters, using dogs, should be affected by what's going on with deer chasers. It's time for their free ride to be curtailed.


I would have to disagree with the part about **** hunters. I know of a few and their dogs go onto other lands sometimes. The only difference is most **** hunters are out at night so the conflicts are minimal, hence my comments about running at night during the training seasons. Also, with regards to rabbit and waterfowl, those are different types of hunting where the game either doesn't go long distances like deer can or they are in the air where dogs can't get to them. Sometimes a deer will circle in a block for hours but sometimes they shoot straight out and cover as much distance as possible. You just never can tell what they're gonna do. The idea here is to minimize conflicts because we all know there is no way to totally eliminate them and keep both sides happy, unless you're looking for an outright ban from the beginning?


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## Moon

*If that's what it takes........................*

**** hunting is nothing compared to deer chasers (percentage of those that do it).

Just stop and think how chasing deer started. It was likely a carry over from chasing fox in England. Hell, I'm old enough to remember how deer chasing was back in the early 50's. We had a 300 acre farm in Northeast North Carolina. Several farmers that owned adjoining land would get together about twice a month, on Saturdays, to get a deer. They would start about 7:00 am and by noon it was all over. They did not have 15 to 25 dogs but rather only 3 or 4. I remember, the dogs never ran too far before coming back to where they were "put in". A typical Saturday's hunt would yield 1 or 2 deer. I don't ever remember anyone having to drive to the next county to get his dog back. Quail hunting was the biggie for us. We always had 1 or 2 good pointers. Saturday afternoons were for quail hunting. I dearly loved having a covey of quail exploding in front of our "stretched out" pointers...........and unless you've had quail with home made biscuits for breakfast....... 

Compare that to where we are today. Back then there were very few 1 to 5 acre tracks of land with homes on them. The properties were normally between 50 acres to thousands of acres, almost all of it being farm land. Today, in SE Virginia you can hardly drive anywhere out in the counties without seeing an ever growing number of private homesites sitting on 1 to 25 acres................normally very close to some larger tracts of land leased to deer chasing clubs.........a recipe for disaster for the home owners unlucky enough to be living near these chasing areas that are thrashed 6 days per week from November 15 through January. So, how can anyone believe that the so called "tradition" of deer chasing will continue idenfinitely since, in reality, todays deer chasing is a Zoo compared to what it was just a few decades ago. That tradition is long gone my friends. While demographics and just about everything else has changed, it's wishful thinking for current deer chasers to believe what they do will continue as it currently is, especially since they've, in many cases, lost touch with ethics, responsiblity and respect for others' privacy.


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## vabass

Moonkryket said:


> **** hunting is nothing compared to deer chasers (percentage of those that do it).
> 
> Just stop and think how chasing deer started. It was likely a carry over from chasing fox in England. Hell, I'm old enough to remember how deer chasing was back in the early 50's. We had a 300 acre farm in Northeast North Carolina. Several farmers that owned adjoining land would get together about twice a month, on Saturdays, to get a deer. They would start about 7:00 am and by noon it was all over. They did not have 15 to 25 dogs but rather only 3 or 4. I remember, the dogs never ran too far before coming back to where they were "put in". A typical Saturday's hunt would yield 1 or 2 deer. I don't ever remember anyone having to drive to the next county to get his dog back. Quail hunting was the biggie for us. We always had 1 or 2 good pointers. Saturday afternoons were for quail hunting. I dearly loved having a covey of quail exploding in front of our "stretched out" pointers...........and unless you've had quail with home made biscuits for breakfast.......
> 
> Compare that to where we are today. Back then there were very few 1 to 5 acre tracks of land with homes on them. The properties were normally between 50 acres to thousands of acres, almost all of it being farm land. Today, in SE Virginia you can hardly drive anywhere out in the counties without seeing an ever growing number of private homesites sitting on 1 to 25 acres................normally very close to some larger tracts of land leased to deer chasing clubs.........a recipe for disaster for the home owners unlucky enough to be living near these chasing areas that are thrashed 6 days per week from November 15 through January. So, how can anyone believe that the so called "tradition" of deer chasing will continue idenfinitely since, in reality, todays deer chasing is a Zoo compared to what it was just a few decades ago. That tradition is long gone my friends. While demographics and just about everything else has changed, it's wishful thinking for current deer chasers to believe what they do will continue as it currently is, especially since they've, in many cases, lost touch with ethics, responsiblity and respect for others' privacy.


And you can bet they are going to try and take down every other form of hunting as they go. They are no better than PETA or HSUS.


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## Pine Tag

vabass said:


> And you can bet they are going to try and take down every other form of hunting as they go. They are no better than PETA or HSUS.


Really? I would say 90% of the people I know that run dogs also bow and/or ML. Come on.


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## Pine Tag

Moonkryket said:


> **** hunting is nothing compared to deer chasers (percentage of those that do it).


Regardless, I'm not trying to throw **** hunters under the bus, I'm simply pointing out the facts as to the similarities/differences between the different methods. I think it's ridiculous that y'all are pursuing an outright ban. Even though the dog hunters and still hunters don't see eye-to-eye, at least the dog guys aren't trying to ban other styles of hunting. What gives y'all the right? A little compromise goes a long way, which is what the training season post was all about. Night training that doesn't interfere with any major seasons. Sounds like a good compromise too me?


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## rick64

Pine Tag said:


> Regardless, I'm not trying to throw **** hunters under the bus, I'm simply pointing out the facts as to the similarities/differences between the different methods. I think it's ridiculous that y'all are pursuing an outright ban. Even though the dog hunters and still hunters don't see eye-to-eye, at least the dog guys aren't trying to ban other styles of hunting. What gives y'all the right? A little compromise goes a long way, which is what the training season post was all about. Night training that doesn't interfere with any major seasons. Sounds like a good compromise too me?


What compromise? You expect a training season without addressing any of the issues with private property. How will that help? *Keep the hounds off property you don't have permission to be on and it will solve most problems.* FLA and GA addressed those problems without banning deer hounds. There's a reason that 48 other states don't allow the RTR and it's illegal to run big game with hounds in the only other state that does.


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## Moon

*Pine*

Until you've experienced what I and other land owners have for years, you have no idea. I don't expect you to understand unless you also have what you thought was private property that you paid for with hard earned $$, only to have it trampled upon year round year after year. Until you've walked in those shoes..............................:zip:

I'll give you an example. Just this morning I went down to the farm to put up a couple ladder stands, cut grass and shoot a little. There were 2 dogs lying on my back porch with orange collars. They ran like hell when I pulled up in the yard. The porch smelled like skunk. They obviously had gotten the worst end of a skunk. I had to wash my porch down and use bleach on it to try to kill the odor, plus do some shoveling of dog crap from my back yard. Just up the road about 150 yards, there were 2 dead foxes and 1 dead racoon that had been thrown out in the middle of the highway......................and you question my motives???? You don't don't have a clue. I do nothing to enterfere with others' privacy and I expect the same and won't stop until it works both ways.


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## vabass

Pine Tag said:


> Really? I would say 90% of the people I know that run dogs also bow and/or ML. Come on.


 Just going by their track record. They have admitted to showing up in Richmond with HSUS to fight against Sunday hunting on private land. They are pushing to limit the number of hunters who can bear hunt by pushing for a seperate bear license. They have also admitted to paying for a list of hunters violations from the Game and Inland Fish and then forwarded that info to legislators that are making the laws. You tell me how any of that is helping the future of hunting and which of those activities PETA would not approve of.


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## Moon

*Deer chasers can count on this:*

Increased pressure from private property owners aimed at Virginia's legislators and DGIF for whatever changes are necessary to end the tradition of dogs and, to a degree, dogs' owners invading private property for the purpose of chasing deer. Lawsuits are an option that are being investigated. 


How can anyone with an open mind come to the conclusion that it's Ok for deer chasers' asinine intrusive practices to somehow trump private property owners' rights, as it actually does today?? 

The battle is just beginning.

It has nothing to do with how many hunter violations are recorded because any half wit should know that there is a big difference in the likelyhood of a single hunter being caught breaking the law than it is for dogs running over private property with no way of even finding out who the dogs belong to. 

It has everything to do with disregard for private lands and their owners rights to use their own property the way they wish. Anyone that does not see dogs running and yapping all hours of the day and night across private land as a total disregard for property owners' rights, is nuts.


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## Pine Tag

rick64 said:


> What compromise? You expect a training season without addressing any of the issues with private property. How will that help? *Keep the hounds off property you don't have permission to be on and it will solve most problems.* FLA and GA addressed those problems without banning deer hounds. There's a reason that 48 other states don't allow the RTR and it's illegal to run big game with hounds in the only other state that does.


That's not true. There are other states that allow you to retrieve your hound. Here are a few quotes for you...

LOUISIANA - Trespass is permitted in order to retrieve a dog or livestock, provided the trespasser is unarmed. Posting by landowners is required. Trespass on marshlands to trap or hunt fur bearing animals without permission is strictly prohibited

MICHIGAN - A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog.

MINNESOTA - ...A person on foot may, without permission of the owner, enter private land without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the dog, the person must immediately leave the premises.

And it could also be the case in other states depending on how the law is interpreted because the wording states _Trespassing is permitted by licensed hunters in order to pursue wounded game or other animals_. Some states allow hunters to pursue wounded game onto posted property so how is this any different? Would you want to be denied your deer that just happened to cross onto someone's property? I'm not saying people should have the right to tramp all over your property for no good reason but there are exceptions and that's why many states have laws written to allow for these exceptions.


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## Pine Tag

vabass said:


> Just going by their track record. They have admitted to showing up in Richmond with HSUS to fight against Sunday hunting on private land. They are pushing to limit the number of hunters who can bear hunt by pushing for a seperate bear license. They have also admitted to paying for a list of hunters violations from the Game and Inland Fish and then forwarded that info to legislators that are making the laws. You tell me how any of that is helping the future of hunting and which of those activities PETA would not approve of.


So how is doing away with dog hunting any different than what you're suggesting? Is that not eliminating a form of hunting? As for bear, I have a hard time believing that hound hunters are behind that. Since it's another form of dog hunting that is trying to be limited or maybe even eliminated, why would any hound hunters be for that? I'm certainly not. I think we have enough licenses as it is and they already cost a fortune. IMO, they should leave all of the licenses alone. There may be a few tweaks that need to be made to the current laws regarding dogs (training season) but not total elimination.


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## Pine Tag

Moonkryket said:


> Increased pressure from private property owners aimed at Virginia's legislators and DGIF for whatever changes are necessary to end the tradition of dogs and, to a degree, dogs' owners invading private property for the purpose of chasing deer. Lawsuits are an option that are being investigated.
> 
> 
> How can anyone with an open mind come to the conclusion that it's Ok for deer chasers' asinine intrusive practices to somehow trump private property owners' rights, as it actually does today??
> 
> The battle is just beginning.
> 
> It has nothing to do with how many hunter violations are recorded because any half wit should know that there is a big difference in the likelyhood of a single hunter being caught breaking the law than it is for dogs running over private property with no way of even finding out who the dogs belong to.
> 
> It has everything to do with disregard for private lands and their owners rights to use their own property the way they wish. Anyone that does not see dogs running and yapping all hours of the day and night across private land as a total disregard for property owners' rights, is nuts.


See my post to Rick64. There are many exceptions as to why people are allowed to go onto someone's land. As long as they are respectful, have a valid reason listed by the laws, and they abide by those laws, what reasons would you have for objection? Obviously abuse of the laws would need to be pursued (such as "looking for dogs" when in reality there are none on property) but legitimate exceptions should be allowed. Maybe if the act were questionable then proof would need to be shown (tracking boxes showing dog on property) and of course we would need more CPO's to enforce.


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## Moon

*Those idiotic laws are easy to fix*

1-The person trespassing on private posted property must have the dog's registered ID in writing on his person to show the land owner and police officer that's on the way to the site. If that information cannot be produced at the scene of the trespassing, the trespasser faces a summons to court and substantial fine.

2 - Dogs allowed to trespass on private property for any so called hunting (chasing) reason should be deemed illegal and the owner punished by substantial fines.


3 - Without a radio collar to prove the dog is on private posted property, the dog's owner is not retrieving his dog. He's looking for the dog. I believe the existing law is RTR......................not right to search/look!!!


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## Pine Tag

Moonkryket said:


> 1-The person trespassing on private posted property must have the dog's registered ID in writing on his person to show the land owner and police officer that's on the way to the site. If that information cannot be produced at the scene of the trespassing, the trespasser faces a summons to court and substantial fine.
> 
> 2 - Dogs allowed to trespass on private property for any so called hunting (chasing) reason should be deemed illegal and the owner punished by substantial fines.
> 
> 
> 3 - Without a radio collar to prove the dog is on private posted property, the dog's owner is not retrieving his dog. He's looking for the dog. I believe the existing law is RTR......................not right to search/look!!!



Point being, there are exceptions for a reason and they don't only exist in VA. I would agree with #3 wholeheartedly. #1, I agree with to an extent but what are the specifics? Would paperwork verifying the dog be good enough (ie name, tracking collar frequency #, dog description, etc)? Would hound hunters have to pay to register their dogs? Whom would they register with? #2 I would definitely have to disagree. If the law were written that way then anyone could be convicted for something as simple as your dog got out the door when your young child opened it and then chased a squirrel/rabbit through your neighbors yard. That one leaves too much open to interpretation.


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## chuckl

> there's plenty of them(trad. Fh's) around me in loudoun, fauquier, rappahannock, culpeper, madison, ablemarle. I don't know why chuck is so down on them,


im not down on them,they are a great alli,i just think if they would give a little on the 365 day chase season some problems could be avoided 

pine tag,there are 22 states that allowe for lawfull tresspass without the landowners consent for one reason or another virginia aint alone


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## Moon

*But just as idiotic*

There IS a difference in an occasional animal getting away from its owner, whether it is a "house pet", pig, chicken, cat, cow, horse than a pack of hound dogs with a radio collars running across posted private property on an ongoing basis, don't you think??


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## Pine Tag

I guess I was under the impression that you had a problem with dogs hanging around. If the dogs cross the property but don't stay, then it seems like you shouldn't have a problem with RTR (#'s 1 and 3 from your previous post). I can see where it would be irritating if you're out hunting but beyond that, what are they hurting by running through the woods? Unless they are truly destroying your property (ie crop damage) or harrassing livestock then what is the actual harm? Shoot, we have a couple of dogs in our neighborhood that roam around in people's yards and aside from 1, it doesn't bother me. 

Let me ask you this, would it bother you as much if the dogs were only run during a designated nighttime training season and general firearms and not during bow, ML, and spring turkey seasons? I realize you don't want them to *ever* run onto your land but couldn't you deal with it better if it was only occasional, as you put it? That's where I think these compromises would work.


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## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> That's not true. There are other states that allow you to retrieve your hound. Here are a few quotes for you...
> 
> LOUISIANA - Trespass is permitted in order to retrieve a dog or livestock, provided the trespasser is unarmed. Posting by landowners is required. Trespass on marshlands to trap or hunt fur bearing animals without permission is strictly prohibited
> 
> MICHIGAN - A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog.
> 
> MINNESOTA - ...A person on foot may, without permission of the owner, enter private land without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the dog, the person must immediately leave the premises.
> 
> And it could also be the case in other states depending on how the law is interpreted because the wording states _Trespassing is permitted by licensed hunters in order to pursue wounded game or other animals_. Some states allow hunters to pursue wounded game onto posted property so how is this any different? Would you want to be denied your deer that just happened to cross onto someone's property? I'm not saying people should have the right to tramp all over your property for no good reason but there are exceptions and that's why many states have laws written to allow for these exceptions.


2 don't have deer chasing period - and Louisiana is looking at changing the deer hound laws. They stopped hunting on 400,000 acres of federal lands because of complaints. I wouldn't have issue with an occasional hound but we're well past that today here. Throw in the rest of the games and it's too much to put up with year in and year out.


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## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> I guess I was under the impression that you had a problem with dogs hanging around. If the dogs cross the property but don't stay, then it seems like you shouldn't have a problem with RTR (#'s 1 and 3 from your previous post). I can see where it would be irritating if you're out hunting but beyond that, what are they hurting by running through the woods? Unless they are truly destroying your property (ie crop damage) or harrassing livestock then what is the actual harm? Shoot, we have a couple of dogs in our neighborhood that roam around in people's yards and aside from 1, it doesn't bother me.
> 
> Let me ask you this, would it bother you as much if the dogs were only run during a designated nighttime training season and general firearms and not during bow, ML, and spring turkey seasons? I realize you don't want them to *ever* run onto your land but couldn't you deal with it better if it was only occasional, as you put it? That's where I think these compromises would work.


What are they hurting if they keep their dogs on lands that they have permission to be on? Besides exactly what are they chasing today? Other than the 'yotes line of crap they have no business being out. Aren't fawns dropping now? Is that a smart move to have deer hounds out now?


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## rick64

pine tag said:


> that's not true. There are other states that allow you to retrieve your hound. Here are a few quotes for you...





pine tag said:


> louisiana - trespass is permitted in order to retrieve a dog or livestock, provided the trespasser is unarmed. Posting by landowners is required. Trespass on marshlands to trap or hunt fur bearing animals without permission is strictly prohibited


Not saying that isn't true, but I couldn't find that statement. I remember a hunter from LA saying something about that and I think that only applies to land that isn't posted. They're having issues with deer hounds also.

They do have this for the WMA's
_Dogs running at large are prohibited on WMAs. The owner or handler of said dogs shall be liable. Only recognizable breeds of bird dogs and retrievers are allowed for quail and migratory bird hunting. Only beagle hounds which do not exceed 15 inches at the front shoulders and which have recognizable characteristics of the breed may be used on WMAs having experimental rabbit seasons_.





pine tag said:


> michigan - a person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog.



The way I read that is the landowner or his agent can stop anyone from entering the property to retrieve a dog and Michigan doesn't allow hound for deer-less conflicts.





pine tag said:


> minnesota - ...a person on foot may, without permission of the owner, enter private land without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the dog, the person must immediately leave the premises.


Doesn't allow hounds for any big game and they have this,
"_No persons may allow their dog to chase or kill big game.
Between January 1 and July 14 a dog that is observed wounding,
killing, or pursuing in a way that endangers big game may be killed
by any person. A peace officer or conservation officer may kill a dog
that endangers big game at any time of the year. The officer or person
is not liable for damages for killing the dog_."


pine tag said:


> and it could also be the case in other states depending on how the law is interpreted because the wording states _trespassing is permitted by licensed hunters in order to pursue wounded game or other animals_. Some states allow hunters to pursue wounded game onto posted property so how is this any different? Would you want to be denied your deer that just happened to cross onto someone's property? I'm not saying people should have the right to tramp all over your property for no good reason but there are exceptions and that's why many states have laws written to allow for these exceptions.


The rest of doesn't relate to the RTR for hounds and I wouldn't want the RTR to retrieve wounded game in VA, just take the time to contact the landowner and ask for permission.


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## vabass

Pine Tag said:


> So how is doing away with dog hunting any different than what you're suggesting? Is that not eliminating a form of hunting? As for bear, I have a hard time believing that hound hunters are behind that. Since it's another form of dog hunting that is trying to be limited or maybe even eliminated, why would any hound hunters be for that? I'm certainly not. I think we have enough licenses as it is and they already cost a fortune. IMO, they should leave all of the licenses alone. There may be a few tweaks that need to be made to the current laws regarding dogs (training season) but not total elimination.


 Pine Tag- Here is an article on the bear license proposal.
http://www.roanoke.com/outdoors/billcochran/wb/196632


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## wis_archer

Moonkryket said:


> Now you tell me, why is the platform facing the highway instead of the woods? Surely they would not shoot across the highway or down the highway, do you think?


How did you exactly come to this conclusion?

Do you see the brush on the other side of the tree

You know deer hear noise real well?

Do you know that getting up a treestand without making noise is beneficial, maybe a deer is real close and doesn't hear you getting up there?

Do you know that if you turn around in a treestand, you have the ability to shoot the other direction?


ukey:

I'm sure you asked the people who put it up why they did that before you made a wild guess.


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## Moon

*I hunt deer virtually every legal day*

beginning with bow season until January 5. I'm talking about real hunting, sitting my butt up a tree on MY or leased property an average of 7 hours per day so I see and hear lots of what goes on by people that have no idea I'm watching or hearing them, like having dog owners parking in my driveway at prime hunting time yelling and blowing horns for their dogs.............DURING BOW AND MUZZLE LOADER SEASON The a-- holes have no idea anyone else exists!! and if they do, they don't care. A bullet hole in a car on my property and nails thrown in driveways are some of the responses from the chasers that are confronted with ruining bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters' hunts........... and you are asking me how much I'm willing to tolerate???? You are barking up the wrong tree.


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## Moon

*Wis*

Thanks for enlightening us on what's possible on a shooting platform on the edge of a highway Any more words of wisdom? How exactly do you know what a deer will do when chased by a dozen or more dogs? So I guess the platform is facing the highway to watch cars and school busses drive by.......................I mean drive under (the platform) and I'm sure it has nothing to do with getting a clear shot down the highway at crossing deer.

45 years of being in the middle of what goes on in SE VA with deer chasing gives me EXACTLY what I need to know. It's called "experience". I don't know what deer do in Wisconsin and I doubt they are chased by dogs until their tongues are hanging out, with shooters sitting in platforms over highways to get a clear shot as the deer cross, but I know very well what happens here.


----------



## Pine Tag

BigBirdVA said:


> What are they hurting if they keep their dogs on lands that they have permission to be on? Besides exactly what are they chasing today? Other than the 'yotes line of crap they have no business being out. Aren't fawns dropping now? Is that a smart move to have deer hounds out now?


I didn't say dogs should be out chasing deer now. If you read back through my posts about the suggested training season it would be a 2 part season consisting of General firearms up through March (mid Nov-March31) and then again from June through the end of August (June1-Aug31). Or if you think that's too early after the fawns drop then make it July - mid Sept as to not interfere with bow season and give a couple of weeks for everything to settle down.


----------



## Pine Tag

rick64 said:


> Not saying that isn't true, but I couldn't find that statement. I remember a hunter from LA saying something about that and I think that only applies to land that isn't posted. They're having issues with deer hounds also.
> 
> They do have this for the WMA's
> _Dogs running at large are prohibited on WMAs. The owner or handler of said dogs shall be liable. Only recognizable breeds of bird dogs and retrievers are allowed for quail and migratory bird hunting. Only beagle hounds which do not exceed 15 inches at the front shoulders and which have recognizable characteristics of the breed may be used on WMAs having experimental rabbit seasons_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way I read that is the landowner or his agent can stop anyone from entering the property to retrieve a dog and Michigan doesn't allow hound for deer-less conflicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't allow hounds for any big game and they have this,
> "_No persons may allow their dog to chase or kill big game.
> Between January 1 and July 14 a dog that is observed wounding,
> killing, or pursuing in a way that endangers big game may be killed
> by any person. A peace officer or conservation officer may kill a dog
> that endangers big game at any time of the year. The officer or person
> is not liable for damages for killing the dog_."
> 
> 
> The rest of doesn't relate to the RTR for hounds and I wouldn't want the RTR to retrieve wounded game in VA, just take the time to contact the landowner and ask for permission.


All of the quotes weren't strictly related to deer hounds. I was simply pointing out that other states do allow hunters to retrieve their hunting dogs, no matter what game they are pursuing. As for Michigan, I guess it depends on how the law is interpreted because it could simply mean you're allowed to retrieve unless the landowner specifically tells you to get off or hands you something in writing. I definitely agree with your last statement about asking permission. Maybe that's why my hunt club doesn't have issues with the surrounding landowners. We treat them with respect and ask for permission. We also try to help them out by doing things aroud their property (ie picking up trash along the roads, building fences, etc)


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## Pine Tag

vabass said:


> Pine Tag- Here is an article on the bear license proposal.
> http://www.roanoke.com/outdoors/billcochran/wb/196632


Ok, I mis-understood. I thought the new license was being pushed on them to try to eliminate bear hunting with hounds. Kind of the same way people want to give deer hound hunters a separate license and charge them to register each hound. We all know that would decrease the number of hound hunters simply due to the higher cost. If the bear hunters truly think that bear should only be hunted using dogs, then I would have to disagree. I bow, ML, and dog hunt so I certainly understand the many different aspects of each hunting style.


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## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> I didn't say dogs should be out chasing deer now. If you read back through my posts about the suggested training season it would be a 2 part season consisting of General firearms up through March (mid Nov-March31) and then again from June through the end of August (June1-Aug31). Or if you think that's too early after the fawns drop then make it July - mid Sept as to not interfere with bow season and give a couple of weeks for everything to settle down.


Again I don't care what they chase or when as long as they do it 100% on lands they lease or own and zero % where they're not welcome.


----------



## Hokieman

Pine Tag said:


> Ok, I mis-understood. I thought the new license was being pushed on them to try to eliminate bear hunting with hounds. Kind of the same way people want to give deer hound hunters a separate license and charge them to register each hound. We all know that would decrease the number of hound hunters simply due to the higher cost. If the bear hunters truly think that bear should only be hunted using dogs, then I would have to disagree. I bow, ML, and dog hunt so I certainly understand the many different aspects of each hunting style.


In lue to this subject they were suckered into this by DGIF!!!! In an attempt to start out with bear hunters buying seperate tags for extra income for DGIF and a step towards making other hunting dog users in va to buy other game permits toward the game they pursue. you can see were this would lead too.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> In lue to this subject they were suckered into this by DGIF!!!! In an attempt to start out with bear hunters buying seperate tags for extra income for DGIF and a step towards making other hunting dog users in va to buy other game permits toward the game they pursue. you can see were this would lead too.


I bet it took a lot to get the bear chasers to want something created to weed out other non-dog bear hunters. It's a perfect example of their thought process in action. Another minority that feels they should take precedence or have more rights than others. But we all know where it's going to lead to. It's just a matter of when.


----------



## chuckl

BigBirdVA said:


> I bet it took a lot to get the bear chasers to want something created to weed out other non-dog bear hunters. It's a perfect example of their thought process in action. Another minority that feels they should take precedence or have more rights than others. But we all know where it's going to lead to. It's just a matter of when.


i dont really matter now.the overwhelming response not to have a seperate tag for bears bulldozed the dgif's ideas of having seperate tags in the near future.but be sure thats not the end of it.its really not a matter of having seperate tags or license for houndsmen it will be about total seperation of all tags.bear,deer,fall turkey,spring turkey,ducks{already} and small game.you will also see in the next 5-10 years some type of stamp for non-hunters using public land and that will open the door for them to have a say about what goes on inside those public lands.right now they dont put in the pot but when they do you can bet they will have their say on how their money is being spent.alot of other states have systems with seperate tags virginia will too,sooner than we wish.
i understand theres already somthing in the works for spring turkey tags being seperate,same as the bear tag,die hards wanna keep the ocaisional turkey hunter out of their spring woods and also dont want the deer hunter shooting a fall turkey "by chance"


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## BigBirdVA

Nothing new. The minority sect, whether it be hunter or non-hunter has always had more pull in VA than anyone else. All you have to do is look at the stupid rules we have compared to the rest of the US.


----------



## Pine Tag

BigBirdVA said:


> Nothing new. The minority sect, whether it be hunter or non-hunter has always had more pull in VA than anyone else. All you have to do is look at the stupid rules we have compared to the rest of the US.


I would respectfully disagree. I have some license sales documentation as well as survey info that would argue that point. If anything, I would say hound hunters make up half of the big game hunters in VA. For anyone interested PM me with your email address and I will send my findings. The sales data is straight from VDGIF. The survey is obviously not 100% accurate but it was created using a legit site and most surveys maintain a 1-3% error rating. Combined, it is a very conservative breakdown of sales by group and how they rank in total sales. Not saying any one group has more pull than another but it could provide some perspective for all of us when we consider making changes and how many other VA hunters they will affect. It could also provide some perspective as to how small of a group we really are and how much we need to stick together in the fight against the anti's.


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## rick64

Pine are you saying that half of all hunters in VA use hounds or dogs?


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## Pine Tag

Yes, almost 50% deer hunt with dogs.


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## ButchA

As per the latest VDHA (VA Deer Hunters Asso.) issue of "Whitetail Times"..... June/July 2009

_{Re-typed by hand... I'm too lazy to try to scan the page and upload it.}_

*Page 7 (2009 Survey Results)*

During 2008-2009 which of the following deer seasons did you hunt?
Archery: 51%
Muzzleleader: 78%
General Firearms: 91%

How many days did you average hunting during the 2008-2009 deer season?
1-5: 5%
6-10: 9%
11-15: 12%
16-20: 16%
21+: 58%

Which region of the state do you hunt?
East of the Blue Ridge: 77% _{aka deer dog country}_
West of the Blue Ridge: 10%
Both: 13%

*Legislative Issues (Hound Hunting)*

Would you be in favor of having a chase season for deer hounds?
Yes: 52%
No: 48%

Should hound hunters be required to register their dogs?
Yes: 35%
No: 65%

Should houndsmen be required to obtain permission before retrieving their dogs from posted property?
Yes: 68%
No: 32%

Should the releasing of hunting dogs from roads onto lands without permission be prohibited?
Yes: 90%
No: 10%

Would you be in favor of removing the "Right to Retrieve Law" from the books?
Yes: 38%
No: 62%


*Page 8 Legislative Issues (Sunday Hunting)*

Would you support Sunday Hunting for the entire season?
Yes: 38%
No: 62%

Would you support Sunday Hunting following the opening day of Archery, Muzzleloader and General Firearms Season?
Yes: 47%
No: 53%

Would you support hunting after 12 noon on Sunday?
Yes: 44%
No: 56%

If Sunday Hunting were legalized in Virginia do you feel that private landowners would support this change?
Yes: 40%
No: 60%

*Game Law Regulations*

Would you be in favor of more either sex (doe) hunting days during the two week early muzzleloader season west of the Blue Ridge?
Yes: 74%
No: 26%

Would you be in favor of having a statewide one week primitive muzzleloader season for traditional guns and equipment only?
Yes: 52%
No: 48%

Would you support mandatory antler restrictions (Examples: 6 points or better, 16" outside spread, etc.) in the areas where you hunt?
Yes: 52%
No: 48%

Would you like to see more counties added to the "Earn a buck Program" where hunters are required to harvest a doe before taking a second buck?
Yes: 63%
No: 37%

Do you purchase bonus permits?
Yes: 22%
No: 78%

Would you be in favor of increasing the number of antlerless tags on the bonus permit?
Yes: 50%
No: 50%

Would you like to see a special bonus tag that could be purchased for one additional antlered buck?
Yes: 54%
No: 46%


Lots of info here that makes you go "Hmmmmmmmm"....


----------



## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> Yes, almost 50% deer hunt with dogs.


The VT report said........... 



> Today, 40% of all hunters use some type of dog while hunting and at least 30% of all hunters likely use hounds (Jagnow et al. 2008).
> 
> Approximately 13% of Virginia residents consider themselves hunters (RM 2005). Given that some 30% of hunters use hounds, 4-5% of Virginians
> likely hunt with hounds.


So every property owner in VA gives up his or her rights to benefit only 3-4 %. 


Big surprise here........


> The public supports hunting for food or wildlife population control more than hunting for “the sport” or “a trophy” (Duda et al. 1998, Organ and Fritzell 2000). *Surveys have also shown little public support for hunting bears or deer with dogs *(Lafon et al. 2003, RM 2004, 2006), hunting predators, and hunting over bait (Duda et
> al. 1998).


----------



## BigBirdVA

ButchA said:


> .............Lots of info here that makes you go "Hmmmmmmmm"....


No lots of info there that makes me consider the source.  Far from a random or representative group.


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## ButchA

Big Bird... I just find it "interesting" that out of the VDHA members, 77% of them hunt east of the Blue Ridge (deer dog country), while only 10% hunt west of the Blue Ridge. (13% chose both).

I guess I'm in the 10% group, as I hunt out in the GWNF even though I live in Richmond.

BTW... If you want me to scan Denny Quaiff's article (pages 5, 6, 7, 8) let me know, and I'll do it and convert it to a .pdf document and try to post it on here.


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## BigBirdVA

ButchA said:


> Big Bird... I just find it "interesting" that out of the VDHA members, 77% of them hunt east of the Blue Ridge (deer dog country), while only 10% hunt west of the Blue Ridge. (13% chose both).
> 
> I guess I'm in the 10% group, as I hunt out in the GWNF even though I live in Richmond.
> 
> BTW... If you want me to scan Denny Quaiff's article (pages 5, 6, 7, 8) let me know, and I'll do it and convert it to a .pdf document and try to post it on here.


Go for it. Thanks.


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## ButchA

Here ya go... Fresh from my scanner....

*Page 5*









*Page 6*









*Page 7*









*Page 8*









If anyone can't quite read the article, let me know... I originally scanned them as a crystal clear .pdf file, but Archery Talk has a limit on the file size upload. PM me and I'll email them to you...


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## Pine Tag

ButchA said:


> Big Bird... I just find it "interesting" that out of the VDHA members, 77% of them hunt east of the Blue Ridge (deer dog country), while only 10% hunt west of the Blue Ridge. (13% chose both).
> 
> I guess I'm in the 10% group, as I hunt out in the GWNF even though I live in Richmond.
> 
> BTW... If you want me to scan Denny Quaiff's article (pages 5, 6, 7, 8) let me know, and I'll do it and convert it to a .pdf document and try to post it on here.


I think you guys are overlooking the fact that the majority of VA's population resides east of the Blue Ridge so those numbers look pretty accurate. Do you think there is some sort of conspiracy by VDGIF to skew the numbers? Looks like the article supports what I said as well about hound hunters being a large portion of VA hunters. Also, you have to realize that hound hunters might bow and ML (like me) so some of those archery and ML sales are from dog hunters as well.


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## ButchA

I agree, Pine Tag. The farther west you go in VA, the lesser the population (ex. not counting Roanoke). Hound hunters dominate hunting in Virginia - that is a well known fact. I scanned those pages as sort of an FYI to everyone, and not trying to fan any flames...

I just find it interesting that 77% of the VDHA is east of the Blue Ridge. But yet, where I hunt out in the GWNF, not many people belong to the VDHA.


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## Pine Tag

Not really sure why most members are in the east? I interpreted yours and bigbird's replies as you guys thought the numbers weren't accurate, or had been skewed somehow. 

It's interesting that my survey and the survey you posted have very similar questions. Some are almost identical. My results were close to those posted although a few varied. My results for the chase season were slightly less in the "yes" category and slightly more in the Sunday hunting category. It's always good to see more data to compare though. We get the most accurate results that way.


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## rick64

Pine Tag said:


> I would respectfully disagree. I have some license sales documentation as well as survey info that would argue that point. If anything, I would say hound hunters make up half of the big game hunters in VA. For anyone interested PM me with your email address and I will send my findings. The sales data is straight from VDGIF. The survey is obviously not 100% accurate but it was created using a legit site and most surveys maintain a 1-3% error rating. Combined, it is a very conservative breakdown of sales by group and how they rank in total sales. Not saying any one group has more pull than another but it could provide some perspective for all of us when we consider making changes and how many other VA hunters they will affect. It could also provide some perspective as to how small of a group we really are and how much we need to stick together in the fight against the anti's.


You have a PM, I would like to see the data you mentioned.

With just guessing at it I would say that half of the hunters in VA use dogs. That would include pointers, retrievers, rabbit hounds, **** hounds, fox hounds....and dog hounds, but I wouldn't think that half of the deer hunters use dogs. Just using this reasoning, roughly half of the state doesn't allow dogs for deer hunting. Despite a limited season and tags in the west, more than half the deer harvest come from the counties that don't allow deer dogs.

Don't know where this is going, but your right about hunters being a small part of the total population in VA. I'll support your right to hunt with hounds just keep the darn things off prohibited land.


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## rick64

Hokieman said:


> In lue to this subject they were suckered into this by DGIF!!!! In an attempt to start out with bear hunters buying seperate tags for extra income for DGIF and a step towards making other hunting dog users in va to buy other game permits toward the game they pursue. you can see were this would lead too.



They've had plenty of time to admit it was a mistake and if they didn't think it wouldn't attract more hostilities to hunters using hounds, well...


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## pdm57

*eastern membership*

some of the eastern membership is due to the fact that your becoming a member of the vhda when you enter the big buck contest in richmond, whether you want to or not. as for me, i'd like to see sunday hunting and will not support any org. be it by entering a contest or any other means, that does not support this measure, but thats just me.


----------



## rick64

BigBirdVA said:


> No lots of info there that makes me consider the source.  Far from a random or representative group.


There's no surprises in that survey. Their membership is mostly made up of hunters in SE VA that use hounds. The VHDA, VAHDA and VFB are groups that VA still hunters, that are interested in lifting the SH ban, shouldn't join or help.


----------



## rick64

pdm57 said:


> some of the eastern membership is due to the fact that your becoming a member of the vhda when you enter the big buck contest in richmond, whether you want to or not. as for me, i'd like to see sunday hunting and will not support any org. be it by entering a contest or any other means, that does not support this measure, but thats just me.


I'm with you. You can look at the BOD of the VDHA, none are from the northern or western part of VA, who's interest are they looking out for?


----------



## Moon

*Here's the survey that I want to see*

A survey of ALL county residents in deer chasing counties that own 5 or more acres of land, whether they hunt or not. After all, they are the ones that are on the receiving end of deer chasing.

Do you feel that your property rights and privacy are infringed upon by deer chasers and their dogs?

Do you see or hear dogs chasing deer on your property outside the legal chasing seasons?

If you have moved to SE Virginia from another state, were you made aware of the deer chasing practices in your county before making the decision to buy your property?

Do you consider deer chasing an ethical means of harvesting deer?

If you understand what is envolved in chasing and shooting chased deer, do you consider it hunting?

If you hunt for deer during archery or muzzle loader seasons, are your hunts disrupted by dogs chasing deer on your property?

Have you experienced dogs being dropped out on county roads to start deer chases illegally on your or others' private property?

Do you feel your property rights are intruded upon more so by deer chasers and their dogs than by bowhunters, muzzle loader hunters and firearms still hunters?


----------



## Pine Tag

Do you feel that your property rights and privacy are infringed upon by deer chasers and their dogs? N/A for me

Do you see or hear dogs chasing deer on your property outside the legal chasing seasons? That's why I have suggested repeatedly about an official training season
If you have moved to SE Virginia from another state, were you made aware of the deer chasing practices in your county before making the decision to buy your property? Who would that responsibility fall to, the real estate agent? Doubtful they would risk a sale to explain that

Do you consider deer chasing an ethical means of harvesting deer? Yes, no different than using dogs for any other method of hunting and this is irrelevant and biased. It has no bearing on property owner rights

If you understand what is envolved in chasing and shooting chased deer, do you consider it hunting? See above answer

If you hunt for deer during archery or muzzle loader seasons, are your hunts disrupted by dogs chasing deer on your property? Occasionally

Have you experienced dogs being dropped out on county roads to start deer chases illegally on your or others' private property? I have never witnessed this and it is irrelevant. This is already illegal

Do you feel your property rights are intruded upon more so by deer chasers and their dogs than by bowhunters, muzzle loader hunters and firearms still hunters? N/A for me

You have to create a survey that has relevant questions and none of them can be leading to get truly accurate results.


----------



## chuckl

> There's no surprises in that survey. Their membership is mostly made up of hunters in SE VA that use hounds. The VHDA, VAHDA and VFB are groups that VA still hunters, that are interested in lifting the SH ban, shouldn't join or help.


rick was there a survey that shows the vdha members are mostley dog hunters? i know a huge pile of houndsmen and none i know are members.
most of us were under the impression they were still hunters.


----------



## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> rick was there a survey that shows the vdha members are mostley dog hunters? i know a huge pile of houndsmen and none i know are members.
> most of us were under the impression they were still hunters.


You can't take any organization that's made up of volunteer membership and say it represents the views of the public. Does HSUS or peta speak for all pet owners? The survey is nothing more than an exercise in self gratification for their org. I have another name for it but we won't put that on here. :zip:


Besides this isn't about who or how many it's about property rights.


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## chuckl

Do you feel that your property rights and privacy are infringed upon by deer chasers and their dogs?no,they have a legal right to.not to mention when they are there i know it.they wear the required orange and can be seen and most times can be heard a mile away calling for dogs.unlike the sneaky bow hunters,only time i know they are there is when we find a gut pile or half a deer left,i say bow hunters cause we only see this during the early bow season

Do you see or hear dogs chasing deer on your property outside the legal chasing seasons? lets go ahead and adopt n.c chase season laws since everybody wants to adopt other states dog laws

If you have moved to SE Virginia from another state, were you made aware of the deer chasing practices in your county before making the decision to buy your property?ummm yep,i did my homework before i bought my land.i deer hunt with dogs so i bought my land where i can do so.if i wanted to still hunt i would have bought west of the blue ridge.wich i do from time to time and i close on it next month

Do you consider deer chasing an ethical means of harvesting deer?why not.no diffrent than hunting with other types of dogs.no diffrent than all those tv shows hunting inside high fenced ranch's.no diffrent than the guys in texas riding around in trucks with high platforms built on them shooting deer,no diffrent than hunting over 100 acre corn filed or 25 pounds of corn poured on the ground,no diffrent than c'meer deer sprayed all over the place.what about hand raising a buck to only turn him out to have him killed for the trophy or the new way,drug the deer so when he comes buy half sleep he dont have a clue he's gonna take a dirt nap

If you understand what is envolved in chasing and shooting chased deer, do you consider it hunting?again no diffrent than the above

If you hunt for deer during archery or muzzle loader seasons, are your hunts disrupted by dogs chasing deer on your property?actually no as ive stated in the past we dont run outside the season

Have you experienced dogs being dropped out on county roads to start deer chases illegally on your or others' private property?never seen it with my two eyes nor have i ever done it

Do you feel your property rights are intruded upon more so by deer chasers and their dogs than by bowhunters, muzzle loader hunters and firearms still hunters? same answer as first question
__________________


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## chuckl

> Besides this isn't about who or how many it's about property rights.


then why bother with surveys?
its about who and how many when it suits you


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## ButchA

Let me answer this just like how Pine Tag did, but yet with my own honest, personal, moral/ethical opinion:


*Do you feel that your property rights and privacy are infringed upon by deer chasers and their dogs?*
Um, I don't own any land in VA (unless you count my little cookie-cutter neighborhood (+/- 1/4 acre lot here in the west end of Richmond), so the answer is N/A.

*Do you see or hear dogs chasing deer on your property outside the legal chasing seasons?*
Same as above, N/A.

*If you have moved to SE Virginia from another state, were you made aware of the deer chasing practices in your county before making the decision to buy your property?*
I moved to VA in 1996 when I retired from the US Coast Guard. I am originally from upstate NY _(yeah, I'm a "yankee come-here"...  )_. Nobody told me squat when I moved here. I heard that you couldn't hunt on Sundays and that they run hound dogs for deer, a few years later. I'm a bit of a "late bloomer" - I started hunting in 2002.

*Do you consider deer chasing an ethical means of harvesting deer?*
Hmmm... Depends on the terrain. I do think it is ethical, when you want to hunt in an area that is so heavy and so thick that there is no way to get in there. You don't exactly have use of a bulldozer or an Army tank, so how do you get in there to flush the deer out? Simple... Hound dogs. But on the flipside, if you have a wide open area, like a 100 acre farm field, and you spot a nice buck 250 yards away, you don't need to run dogs after it. Just bring up your .270 and drop the deer in its tracks. Long story short: Both are ethical IMHO.

*If you understand what is envolved in chasing and shooting chased deer, do you consider it hunting?*
When it's done right, it's all part of hunting. You and the dogs work together as a team. But to dump the dogs on someone's private property, then rush around to the other side of the property, and sit along the road, then it's still part of hunting I guess, but, it looks more like cheating. Because the dogs are doing all the work. You're just sitting there along the road, ready to blast the deer who's going to be running out away from the dogs.

*If you hunt for deer during archery or muzzle loader seasons, are your hunts disrupted by dogs chasing deer on your property?*
Yup. On more than one occasion. But instead of screaming and fighting about it _(aka David and Goliath scenario)_ where it becomes me vs 3000+ deer hound hunters, I decided it's better to go somewhere else to hunt, where they don't run hound dogs - i.e. George Washington Nat'l Forest. But now, if I were a property owner in SE Virginia, my attitude would be different. I'd be screaming mad...

*Have you experienced dogs being dropped out on county roads to start deer chases illegally on your or others' private property?*
Um, well, yeah... I have seen this in Cumberland State Forest during bow season. But I don't know who's property it was, but they'd dump the dogs off, then the dogs would venture into the state forest land. Sometimes, I would try to outsmart them and hunt on the other ridge in hopes that the dogs would run a deer to me, but most often, it didn't work out. Other times, I would just shake my head and say, _"Whatever, dude..."_  and pack up and go somewhere else to hunt.

*Do you feel your property rights are intruded upon more so by deer chasers and their dogs than by bowhunters, muzzle loader hunters and firearms still hunters?*
Again, I don't own any property. But if I did own land in SE Virginia, then yes, most likely the deer hound hunters would try to run deer on my land. If they'd ask permission, I'd allow it, heck, I might even join them on a hunt during firearms season. But yet, if I worked hard to make my land nice, created food plots, and put up barbed wire fences, then yes, I would want to be able to hunt the land in peace during bow season, because it's my land - bought and paid for. I'd make it bowhunting only during bow season with permission. During firearms season, I'd allow the hound hunters to hunt it. Respect my land, respect me, and I'll respect you. We could do it right and work together. Lead by example, is a good train of thought, given this scenario...


----------



## Pine Tag

ButchA said:


> *Do you feel your property rights are intruded upon more so by deer chasers and their dogs than by bowhunters, muzzle loader hunters and firearms still hunters?*
> Again, I don't own any property. But if I did own land in SE Virginia, then yes, most likely the deer hound hunters would try to run deer on my land. If they'd ask permission, I'd allow it, heck, I might even join them on a hunt during firearms season. But yet, if I worked hard to make my land nice, created food plots, and put up barbed wire fences, then yes, I would want to be able to hunt the land in peace during bow season, because it's my land - bought and paid for. I'd make it bowhunting only during bow season with permission. During firearms season, I'd allow the hound hunters to hunt it. Respect my land, respect me, and I'll respect you. We could do it right and work together. Lead by example, is a good train of thought, given this scenario...


I like that answer. I think I'd do it the same way. Although, if there were an official training season that didn't coincide with archery or any other season, you wouldn't have to worry about it.


----------



## Moon

*It's funny how deer chasers*

chime in with their biased views of private residential property rights when in fact ultimately it will be private property owners that succeed in ending the wreckless, intrusive, much of the time illegal practices associated with deer chasing

So if it's illegal it does not matter............even though it can't be controlled. Yeah, right.

I have yet seen waterfowl , quail or other small game harrassed, not to mention harrassed year round, as deer are. You people must be from mars.


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## Pine Tag

Moonkryket said:


> chime in with their biased views of private residential property rights when in fact ultimately it will be private property owners that succeed in ending the wreckless, intrusive, much of the time illegal practices associated with deer chasing
> 
> So if it's illegal it does not matter............even though it can't be controlled. Yeah, right.
> 
> I have yet seen waterfowl , quail or other small game harrassed, not to mention harrassed year round, as deer are. You people must be from mars.


Not sure if that was directed toward my answer to #7 but if it is then I wasn't saying it doesn't matter that it's illegal. I was pointing out that there is already a law in the books to cover these acts. Fact is, they should be reported and punished the same way that a still hunter should be punished for poaching (already a law in the books). To get accurate results, the questions in a survey shouldn't be leading or biased. That would be like me asking "how often do you see bowhunters poaching?" The question itself puts a negative spin on the topic before the answer is even read.


----------



## Moon

*Depends on whether one has an agenda or not*

and I think it's safe to say that any of my recommeded questions to county land owner residents would be viewed negatively and leading by deer chasers, especially the large number of them that ignore existing reuglations and get by with it on an ongoing basis.

Fact is that due to the nature of deer chasing, where it's normal for dogs to intrude over others property without any chance of the property owner of even finding out who the dogs are owned by, tells the whole story. And for those that think we should be ok with having our property trampled over by dogs 12 months per year, sorry folks, it will come to an end.


----------



## ButchA

Moon, I'm curious...

Deer hounds run 365 days a year? I'm not being dumb or ignorant. I know how understandably aggravated you are with deer hounds... But they continue to run the dogs even out of season all year long? For real? :mg:


----------



## Moon

*Not every day of course*

For example, I've had hounds with orange collars in my yard twice in the last week. I can never plan anything "knowing" my plans won't be dissrupted by dogs. I like to sit around the fields at times to photograph deer during the summer. It's always a crap shoot as to whether I can use MY property the way I want without intruders.


----------



## BigBirdVA

ButchA said:


> Moon, I'm curious...
> 
> Deer hounds run 365 days a year? I'm not being dumb or ignorant. I know how understandably aggravated you are with deer hounds... But they continue to run the dogs even out of season all year long? For real? :mg:


I took your advise and went west to hunt. Spring gobbler heard hounds. Then they stopped at a spot not too far from me. Then heard a vehicle approach. Then small caliber gunfire. Dogs then stopped barking. Nothing except turkey was in. But it still goes on. Had my video camera with me and I don't have the video of the hounds but have the audio of them and the shots.

The new excuse now is "I'm chasing coyotes" or so I've been told. And they wonder why?


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> i dont really matter now.the overwhelming response not to have a seperate tag for bears bulldozed the dgif's ideas of having seperate tags in the near future.but be sure thats not the end of it.its really not a matter of having seperate tags or license for houndsmen it will be about total seperation of all tags.bear,deer,fall turkey,spring turkey,ducks{already} and small game.you will also see in the next 5-10 years some type of stamp for non-hunters using public land and that will open the door for them to have a say about what goes on inside those public lands.right now they dont put in the pot but when they do you can bet they will have their say on how their money is being spent.alot of other states have systems with seperate tags virginia will too,sooner than we wish.
> i understand theres already somthing in the works for spring turkey tags being seperate,same as the bear tag,die hards wanna keep the ocaisional turkey hunter out of their spring woods and also dont want the deer hunter shooting a fall turkey "by chance"


Chuck, to be fair the VBHA had plenty of time to say they were wrong and separating the tags would be a mistake. The truth is, that is what they wanted all along. It would eliminate the lucky(non hound) SOB that had a bear walk past his stand. They were looking out for their best interest and I can't blame them for that. The non hunters already have a say in the DGIF and if they want to set foot onto a WMA, they should have to have a "use", hunting or fishing permit. Don't try to shift the blame to Turkey hunters the Bear hunters using hounds have already set the wheels in motion.


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> rick was there a survey that shows the vdha members are mostley dog hunters? i know a huge pile of houndsmen and none i know are members.
> most of us were under the impression they were still hunters.


Chuck I can't remember the numbers from their last survey, but it was over 50% of their members hunted with hounds. They didn't ask the question on this survey, but 90% of their members hunt in the SE.

4 years ago they opposed lifting the SH ban. I guess they were criticized by hunters and lost members from that. It seems like they have tried to play the middle since then. To be fair their publication "The Whitetail Times" is good, but their leadership needs to be more diverse before I'll renew my membership.


----------



## rick64

ButchA said:


> As per the latest VDHA (VA Deer Hunters Asso.) issue of "Whitetail Times"..... June/July 2009
> 
> _{Re-typed by hand... I'm too lazy to try to scan the page and upload it.}_
> 
> *Page 7 (2009 Survey Results)*
> 
> During 2008-2009 which of the following deer seasons did you hunt?
> Archery: 51%
> Muzzleleader: 78%
> General Firearms: 91%
> 
> How many days did you average hunting during the 2008-2009 deer season?
> 1-5: 5%
> 6-10: 9%
> 11-15: 12%
> 16-20: 16%
> 21+: 58%
> 
> Which region of the state do you hunt?
> East of the Blue Ridge: 77% _{aka deer dog country}_
> West of the Blue Ridge: 10%
> Both: 13%
> 
> *Legislative Issues (Hound Hunting)*
> 
> Would you be in favor of having a chase season for deer hounds?
> Yes: 52%
> No: 48%
> 
> Should hound hunters be required to register their dogs?
> Yes: 35%
> No: 65%
> 
> Should houndsmen be required to obtain permission before retrieving their dogs from posted property?
> Yes: 68%
> No: 32%
> 
> Should the releasing of hunting dogs from roads onto lands without permission be prohibited?
> Yes: 90%
> No: 10%
> 
> Would you be in favor of removing the "Right to Retrieve Law" from the books?
> Yes: 38%
> No: 62%
> 
> 
> *Page 8 Legislative Issues (Sunday Hunting)*
> 
> Would you support Sunday Hunting for the entire season?
> Yes: 38%
> No: 62%
> 
> Would you support Sunday Hunting following the opening day of Archery, Muzzleloader and General Firearms Season?
> Yes: 47%
> No: 53%
> 
> Would you support hunting after 12 noon on Sunday?
> Yes: 44%
> No: 56%
> 
> If Sunday Hunting were legalized in Virginia do you feel that private landowners would support this change?
> Yes: 40%
> No: 60%
> 
> *Game Law Regulations*
> 
> Would you be in favor of more either sex (doe) hunting days during the two week early muzzleloader season west of the Blue Ridge?
> Yes: 74%
> No: 26%
> 
> Would you be in favor of having a statewide one week primitive muzzleloader season for traditional guns and equipment only?
> Yes: 52%
> No: 48%
> 
> Would you support mandatory antler restrictions (Examples: 6 points or better, 16" outside spread, etc.) in the areas where you hunt?
> Yes: 52%
> No: 48%
> 
> Would you like to see more counties added to the "Earn a buck Program" where hunters are required to harvest a doe before taking a second buck?
> Yes: 63%
> No: 37%
> 
> Do you purchase bonus permits?
> Yes: 22%
> No: 78%
> 
> Would you be in favor of increasing the number of antlerless tags on the bonus permit?
> Yes: 50%
> No: 50%
> 
> Would you like to see a special bonus tag that could be purchased for one additional antlered buck?
> Yes: 54%
> No: 46%
> 
> 
> Lots of info here that makes you go "Hmmmmmmmm"....


Thanks for posting that Butch, some of those results surprised me.

68% in favor of asking permission to recover hounds.

52% in favor of mandatory antler restrictions(I always assumed most dog clubs were brown and down)

63% add more counties to the "Earn A Buck Program"

Surprised me that many hunters were interested in QDM in "hound country"


----------



## rick64

Moonkryket said:


> A survey of ALL county residents in deer chasing counties that own 5 or more acres of land, whether they hunt or not. After all, they are the ones that are on the receiving end of deer chasing.
> 
> Do you feel that your property rights and privacy are infringed upon by deer chasers and their dogs?
> 
> Do you see or hear dogs chasing deer on your property outside the legal chasing seasons?
> 
> If you have moved to SE Virginia from another state, were you made aware of the deer chasing practices in your county before making the decision to buy your property?
> 
> Do you consider deer chasing an ethical means of harvesting deer?
> 
> If you understand what is envolved in chasing and shooting chased deer, do you consider it hunting?
> 
> If you hunt for deer during archery or muzzle loader seasons, are your hunts disrupted by dogs chasing deer on your property?
> 
> Have you experienced dogs being dropped out on county roads to start deer chases illegally on your or others' private property?
> 
> Do you feel your property rights are intruded upon more so by deer chasers and their dogs than by bowhunters, muzzle loader hunters and firearms still hunters?


I'm not going to answer Moon's survey, but I don't doubt that he has to deal with more issues from hunting deer with hounds than I do and he would have more predigest toward hunting deer with hounds.


----------



## rick64

Moonkryket said:


> and I think it's safe to say that any of my recommeded questions to county land owner residents would be viewed negatively and leading by deer chasers, especially the large number of them that ignore existing reuglations and get by with it on an ongoing basis.
> 
> Fact is that due to the nature of deer chasing, where it's normal for dogs to intrude over others property without any chance of the property owner of even finding out who the dogs are owned by, tells the whole story. And for those that think we should be ok with having our property trampled over by dogs 12 months per year, sorry folks, it will come to an end.


I'm sure I don't see eye to eye with Moon on this issue, but I have heard from COP's that landowners will call in complaints against hounds but will not go to court in fear of retaliation from houndsmen.


----------



## Pine Tag

Moonkryket said:


> and I think it's safe to say that any of my recommeded questions to county land owner residents would be viewed negatively and leading by deer chasers, especially the large number of them that ignore existing reuglations and get by with it on an ongoing basis.
> 
> Fact is that due to the nature of deer chasing, where it's normal for dogs to intrude over others property without any chance of the property owner of even finding out who the dogs are owned by, tells the whole story. And for those that think we should be ok with having our property trampled over by dogs 12 months per year, sorry folks, it will come to an end.


Agreed, but if you have an agenda and load the questions then you can't present your findings to a group like VDGIF. They would consider it invalid and throw it out due to the prejudice nature of the questions. Just FYI.


----------



## Moon

*DGIF and state legislators*

should be doing their own surveys of county citizens so they will know what's been going on for the last 10 years or so. 

Someone mentioned retribution..........I ran a guy out of my driveway about 7 years ago. It was 9:00 am on a Monday during bow season. I was in my tree stand and he was screaming at the top of his voice calling dogs. I got out of my stand, walked up my lane to where he was standing next to my mail box. I told him I would appreciate it if he got in his truck and go somewhere else to call his dogs that were chasing deer out of season. In March the following year I found at least a 5 gallon bucket of nails in my driveway and found a bullet hole in one of my vehicles sitting in the back yard. I can show you nails still in my driveway after 6 years of picking them up. I've been accused of killing dogs. I've never shot a dog. I've been told I should appreciate their deer chasing during bow season to help me get shots at deer If I thought I needed a dog to kill a deer, I'd stop hunting. Most of them seemingly have no idea what hunting is. To them, if dogs aren't running all over the place yapping and intruding on others property, it "ain't" hunting. It's a sorry situation for those of us on the recieving end of it.


----------



## chuckl

> Chuck, to be fair the VBHA had plenty of time to say they were wrong and separating the tags would be a mistake. The truth is, that is what they wanted all along. It would eliminate the lucky(non hound) SOB that had a bear walk past his stand.


rick sorry but you dont have a clue what went on in that meeting.thats not what they were trying to do.yes they asked for a seperate tag but it wasnt to blackball va. still hunters.the vdgif added and twisted what the original deal was supposed to be.the truth is you dont know what the truth is behind all of it.there was more here than what meets the eye,but of corse they are hound hunters,they cant possibly be trusted.


----------



## chuckl

> Don't try to shift the blame to Turkey hunters the Bear hunters using hounds have already set the wheels in motion.


im not trying to shift the blame,i simply stated what was coming next so yall have plenty of time to gather your anger and cuss them when it happens.im sure all will be ok though,we all will be sympathetic of the turkey hunters they were just victims of secondary stupidity,the houndsmen started it


----------



## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> rick sorry but you dont have a clue what went on in that meeting.thats not what they were trying to do.yes they asked for a seperate tag but it wasnt to blackball va. still hunters.the vdgif added and twisted what the original deal was supposed to be.the truth is you dont know what the truth is behind all of it.there was more here than what meets the eye,but of corse they are hound hunters,they cant possibly be trusted.


Well enlighten us what the truth was? 

A new and separate tag without a price deduction in the remaining big game tags is a new fee. And how about that statement they made? 



> The idea had been brought forward in February by members of the Virginia Bear Hunters Association, a group of hunters who hunt bears with hounds. Some have said they feel bears deserve to be more than just bonus animals for deer hunters who luck into one of the animals.


Now tell me how that's supposed to be taken any other way? 


And it's already a done deal. Here's a law that has been on the books since 2004.




> § 29.1-305 in part says:
> 
> B. The Board may create a separate special license for the hunting of bear in this Commonwealth. The fee for such a special license shall be $25 for residents and $150 for nonresidents. A person who obtains a special license for hunting bear shall also be required to obtain the state resident license or state nonresident license pursuant to § 29.1-303. If a special license to hunt bear is established by the Board, the special license required in subsection A shall authorize the hunting of deer and turkey only.



So at any moment all the board has to do is vote it in. No public approval, no sponsor by the bear chasers, nothing else is needed. They can do it tomorrow if they call a special meeting. It was a ploy by VDGIF to have others bring it up so they don't look like the bad guys. I imagine it was real hard to get them to endorse the change. Bet they fell all over themselves at the thought of it becoming a reality. The proposal was just part of the softening up process and in 1-2 years we'll see it happen regardless. Still it was nice to see how the bear chasers actually feel about other hunters taking "their" bears. 

Hmmmmm.............now where have I seen that "we're more entitled" mentality exhibited by hound hunters before?


----------



## chuckl

thats right, since 04 it could have happened at any time,no gripping then,why now? thats right i forgot,there had to be some group to point the finger at


----------



## chuckl

RICK just wandering we all know you dont like "deer chasers" now it seems you dont like "bear chassers" how about **** chassers?are they ok with you.will i have to deal with you on **** huntin issues in the future.im looking at going to the board with some changes,wonder if i can have your blessing


----------



## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> RICK just wandering we all know you dont like "deer chasers" now it seems you dont like "bear chassers" how about **** chassers?are they ok with you.will i have to deal with you on **** huntin issues in the future.im looking at going to the board with some changes,wonder if i can have your blessing


I don't like the attitudes and actions of some of the chasers. Maybe that clears it up for you. If they can keep their chosen form of recreation on their own lands there won't be any issues or problems. Again how hard is that for you to grasp? 

**** hunters tend follow their hounds closely. They tend to show a little more consideration for other hunters. Believe it or not I've been **** hunting with a relative out of state. Seemed like a waste of a perfectly good set of flashlight batteries but it doesn't impact other hunters and it presents none of the problems deer chasing does. Not sure but maybe just maybe it's because a **** trees at some point and a deer doesn't. I've seen few if any **** hunters and have heard of zero complaints on them. I can't imagine anything they could dream up causing an issue. Even you might be hard pressed to create something new and problematic.


Still waiting for the details on that original deal with the new bear tag.


----------



## Pine Tag

BigBirdVA said:


> ...and it presents none of the problems deer chasing does.


I don't agree with that. As I've said before, I'm not throwing **** hunters under the bus but since you brought up the different groups, I thought I'd point this out. You say you always want hounds to stay off your land, then why would you be so prejudiced toward deer hound hunters and not all hound hunters? **** hounds do go onto other lands. Trust me on this one as I have a friend that competes in **** hunts all the time. I even went with him once but it just wasn't my thing. The difference between **** hound hunters and deer hunters is they are out at night, ie less visible. You may have **** hunters retrieve their dogs off your land all the time and don't even know it. Like Chuck said, does that mean you will be pushing for that ban in the future?


----------



## Pine Tag

BigBirdVA said:


> Hmmmmm.............now where have I seen that "we're more entitled" mentality exhibited by hound hunters before?


Seems to me like the ones trying to ban hound hunting have the "we're more entitled" mentality. Why are you more entitled to hunt than those that use hounds? And I know you say you don't have a problem as long as the dogs stay on permissable lands but in all fairness, your statements and actions don't reflect that. After all, hound hunters are not the ones trying to do away with a hunting style.


----------



## chuckl

> Still waiting for the details on that original deal with the new bear tag.


why bother,your mind is made up and aint nothing i can say to change it.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> Seems to me like the ones trying to ban hound hunting have the "we're more entitled" mentality. Why are you more entitled to hunt than those that use hounds? And I know you say you don't have a problem as long as the dogs stay on permissable lands but in all fairness, your statements and actions don't reflect that. After all, hound hunters are not the ones trying to do away with a hunting style.


Can you not read? I've said if they can keep themselves and their dogs on their own lands it's fine. I'm not trying to ban it. There's so few **** hunters and it's at night they're not a problem. I've yet to see **** hounds during deer or spring gobbler. I have seen tons of other hounds chasing deer during those times during the times others are hunting. Your attempt to link the **** hunters in with problem causing hunters isn't working. A short nighttime chase is not in the same league as a daytime hours long chase covering 100's of acres. I imagine if we had thousands of **** hunters out it might cause some conflict but their numbers are low. Or they know how to keep a low profile and act not to cause issues. Whatever it is you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that's had interaction with them that resulted in a problem.


----------



## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> why bother,your mind is made up and aint nothing i can say to change it.


I'm only reading their words and it's hard to take it any other way. Again if you've got something then I'm all ears.


----------



## Moon

*Not with the stuff you are using*

Why is it that you deer chasers ALWAYS bring up **** hunting , quail hunting, duck hunting, rabbit hunting and ANY other method of taking wild animals with dogs, when THEY are not the problem. Forget those. The focus is on you deer chasers that have "made your own beds" and it won't be long before you'll have to sleep in them. There will be a special section in the Trading Post for dog boxes and radio collars for sale:clap:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> Why is it that you deer chasers ALWAYS bring up **** hunting , quail hunting, duck hunting, rabbit hunting and ANY other method of taking wild animals with dogs, when THEY are not the problem. Forget those. The focus is on you deer chasers that have "made your own beds" and it won't be long before you'll have to sleep in them. There will be a special section in the Trading Post for dog boxes and radio collars for sale:clap:


Come on you sure those weren't **** hounds on your porch?


----------



## Pine Tag

BigBirdVA said:


> Can you not read? I've said if they can keep themselves and their dogs on their own lands it's fine. I'm not trying to ban it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why was it you helped create the VHHR site then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's so few **** hunters and it's at night they're not a problem. I've yet to see **** hounds during deer or spring gobbler. I have seen tons of other hounds chasing deer during those times during the times others are hunting. Your attempt to link the **** hunters in with problem causing hunters isn't working. A short nighttime chase is not in the same league as a daytime hours long chase covering 100's of acres. I imagine if we had thousands of **** hunters out it might cause some conflict but their numbers are low. Or they know how to keep a low profile and act not to cause issues. Whatever it is you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that's had interaction with them that resulted in a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> My point was you said in your previous statement that it presents none of the problems deer chasing does and I'm showing you the similarity. You have continuously insisted that you don't want any hound on your property so is that not a contradiction? Is that not a possible conflict of interest under your "no dog on my property" mentality? Now, if you look at this part of your statement..."I've yet to see **** hounds during deer or spring gobbler. I have seen tons of other hounds chasing deer during those times during the times others are hunting."... it sure seems like you wouldn't have a problem with dogs running as long as it doesn't interfere with bow, ML, and spring gobbler. Since I have insisted all along that a hound training season would help eliminate most of the issues for other hunters, I would think you would fully support that, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## chuckl

> Why is it that you deer chasers ALWAYS bring up **** hunting , quail hunting, duck hunting, rabbit hunting and ANY other method of taking wild animals with dogs, when THEY are not the problem. Forget those.


because i **** hunt too and the rtr law saved my dog just this weekend.he got on somebodys property and the man was on the way down to shoot him and when he got there he saw me and relized who i was and what i was doing.told me point blank had he beat me there the dog would have been dead, he never even thought to look at the name tag on the collar.


----------



## Pine Tag

chuckl said:


> because i **** hunt too and the rtr law saved my dog just this weekend.he got on somebodys property and the man was on the way down to shoot him and when he got there he saw me and relized who i was and what i was doing.told me point blank had he beat me there the dog would have been dead, he never even thought to look at the name tag on the collar.


Good example. Taking away RTR will affect a whole lot more people than just deer hunters. Back when I had dogs the RTR saved them a couple of times, from possibly being hit by cars. It's there for a valid reason.


----------



## Moon

*But you don't give zheit*

that your dog was on his property and intruding on his privacy plus distracting him from what he was doing???? That's the mentality that will eventually cost you but, again, it's not about chasing *****. It's about your dogs on my property that you obviously don't get or care about..............but you will soon enough.


----------



## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> because i **** hunt too and the rtr law saved my dog just this weekend.he got on somebodys property and the man was on the way down to shoot him and when he got there he saw me and relized who i was and what i was doing.told me point blank had he beat me there the dog would have been dead, he never even thought to look at the name tag on the collar.


Not defending the shooting of a dog as a solution or right but if your dog was on land he had permission to be on it wouldn't have been an issue. When you guys figure out that people buy land for their own exclusive use and you're not entitled to any part of it if they say no your problems will go away. 

So much for that great relationship you have with those surrounding your hunt lands you posted about before. There's a lot more out there like him than you think.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Pine Tag said:


> Good example. Taking away RTR will affect a whole lot more people than just deer hunters. Back when I had dogs the RTR saved them a couple of times, from possibly being hit by cars. It's there for a valid reason.


It's going to change for a valid reason as well.


----------



## chuckl

> So much for that great relationship you have with those surrounding your hunt lands you posted about before. There's a lot more out there like him than you think


what the hell are you talking about??????
I SAID.......
told me point blank had he beat me there the dog would have been dead, he never even THOUGHT to look at the name tag on the collar. 


once he saw me and relized who and what was going on, all was good,he had no idea i **** hunted.

HEY MOON JUST HOW SOON IS SOON ENOUGH

AND OF COURSE I GIVE A ****E,NOW I CAN BE THERE ON HIS PROPERTY ANYTIME I WANT.THANKS TO THE RTR I WAS THERE WHEN HE GOT THERE AND IT ALL WORKED OUT AND I HAVE WRITTEN PERMISION NOBODY ELSE HAS.


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> rick sorry but you dont have a clue what went on in that meeting.thats not what they were trying to do.yes they asked for a seperate tag but it wasnt to blackball va. still hunters.the vdgif added and twisted what the original deal was supposed to be.the truth is you dont know what the truth is behind all of it.there was more here than what meets the eye,



Chuck your right I wasn't at that meeting, were you? The VBHA's intentions were obvious. I guess your saying that VADGIF is lying, and the quotes from the VHBA aren't correct? I haven't seen anything from the VBHA stating that. I said at the beginning, I didn't blame the VHBA for what they were doing and I wish groups like the VBA and NWTF would be more aggressive with advocating for thier members, but I guess they don't want to alienate other hunters.

The fact is the DGIF doesn't need any other groups support for separating the tags in the future and I can't say what's best. The DGIF need more revenue and unlike all of the other taxes and fees that I pay in VA, I can say that I get my moneys worth with my hunting and fishing license. If they separate the tags it will cost more for me but it may keep the cost down for the hunter that only goes out for the first week of gen. firearms and it will keep him hunting instead of give up the sport. 




chuckl said:


> but of corse they are hound hunters,they cant possibly be trusted.


Your over reacting and exaggerating anything that I post. I never said hound hunters couldn't be trusted. I have said the VAHDA can't be trusted, no still hunter should support them and they've lied in the past. The VBHA is up front with thier agenda.


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> im not trying to shift the blame,i simply stated what was coming next so yall have plenty of time to gather your anger and cuss them when it happens.im sure all will be ok though,we all will be sympathetic of the turkey hunters they were just victims of secondary stupidity,the houndsmen started it



I guess we'll just have to what until next year to see if your right or just blowing smoke.


----------



## rick64

Pine Tag said:


> Seems to me like the ones trying to ban hound hunting have the "we're more entitled" mentality. Why are you more entitled to hunt than those that use hounds? And I know you say you don't have a problem as long as the dogs stay on permissable lands but in all fairness, your statements and actions don't reflect that. After all, hound hunters are not the ones trying to do away with a hunting style.


Pine to be fair, a lot of hound hunters were against primitive weopons from the begining and still are. Look at the post from the hound forums, they blame QDM and primitive weopon hunters for all their problems. There's counties in VA that hound hunters have blocked or limited muzzleloaders. 

Address the issue of hound going where they don't belong. Have the changes in FLA and GA helped?


----------



## Moon

*Bird*

I'm seeing more sign of coyotes during the last 12 months. Where can I get some good traps to use on my property?


----------



## rick64

chuckl said:


> what the hell are you talking about??????
> I SAID.......
> told me point blank had he beat me there the dog would have been dead, he never even THOUGHT to look at the name tag on the collar.
> 
> 
> once he saw me and relized who and what was going on, all was good,he had no idea i **** hunted.
> 
> HEY MOON JUST HOW SOON IS SOON ENOUGH
> 
> AND OF COURSE I GIVE A ****E,NOW I CAN BE THERE ON HIS PROPERTY ANYTIME I WANT.THANKS TO THE RTR I WAS THERE WHEN HE GOT THERE AND IT ALL WORKED OUT AND I HAVE WRITTEN PERMISION NOBODY ELSE HAS.


Chuck he was about to shoot your hound, did you call the CPO? That doesn't make sense that he has no problem with your dogs running on his land, but he'll shoot any others? And if he knows you, I would guess that you already have permision to retrieve your dogs, so the RTR wouldn't apply, right? 

He's a landowner that was going to shoot your hound, so I would guess he's had problems in the past with hounds running on his land or out of season.

That's funny, all the crap you give me about complaining about the RTR. This guy was going to shoot your dog, but it all worked out right.


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## Moon

*Rick*

Exactly! I think it's time to start rolling our pants legs up. It's getting deep.


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## rick64

Moonkryket said:


> I'm seeing more sign of coyotes during the last 12 months. Where can I get some good traps to use on my property?


Come on Moon, you know that even if that's legal it's not the right thing to do. Kind of similar to the RTR.


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## BigBirdVA

rick64 said:


> Chuck he was about to shoot your hound, did you call the CPO? That doesn't make sense that he has no problem with your dogs running on his land, but he'll shoot any others? And if he knows you, I would guess that you already have permision to retrieve your dogs, so the RTR wouldn't apply, right?
> 
> He's a landowner that was going to shoot your hound, so I would guess he's had problems in the past with hounds running on his land or out of season.
> 
> That's funny, all the crap you give me about complaining about the RTR. This guy was going to shoot your dog, but it all worked out right.


You're missing it. As long as it's one on their team or associates it's ok to shoot dogs. Yep guess he's not all that friendly towards unwanted hounds on his land. 'Ol Chuck still doesn't grasp what it really means. Guess everyone in hound land isn't on the same page.


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## chuckl

> Chuck he was about to shoot your hound, did you call the CPO? That doesn't make sense that he has no problem with your dogs running on his land, but he'll shoot any others? And if he knows you, I would guess that you already have permision to retrieve your dogs, so the RTR wouldn't apply, right?
> 
> He's a landowner that was going to shoot your hound, so I would guess he's had problems in the past with hounds running on his land or out of season.
> 
> That's funny, all the crap you give me about complaining about the RTR. This guy was going to shoot your dog, but it all worked out right.


yes he has had problems with another club down the street, sadly its all racial,this man is black and has had personal issues with the other club,he thought my dog was sombody elses dog.his problems with the other club has led to our club being able to use his land.nobody but me in my club **** hunts and you know darn good and well i just started back up form other post of mine on another site.had my dog been shot i would have blamed myself for not giving the man a heads up and that i would be out there in the wee hours of the morning ,but had he shot my dog i know full well that man would have bent over backwards to compensate me for my loss.bottom line the RTR saved my dog and put me in the position to have a talk with him and i can **** hunt with peace of mind.


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## ButchA

Chuck,

You were hunting on land that you had permission on. Your dog was on that very same land. I don't understand what the problem was (or is). Your dog didn't go busting off to God knows where onto someone else's land.

I'm just trying to get a good understanding of things. I guess I am still trying to be a peacekeeper or middleman, in the never-ending saga of still hunters and dog hunters.

I can see your point of view and have talked to you on the phone. But then, I can understand Moonkryket's point of view where he lives, being bombarded with deer hounds 24/7/365.


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## chuckl

butch we started on club land kinda in the middle but friday night was a bright moon and anybody that knows anything about **** huntin knows on bright nights ***** will travle long distances especially a boar ****.the fellas land is long and narrow road frontage land in front of ours and form what i heard of the dogs giving mouth on track was the **** left out of the bottom walking a ridge top headed for the back of his house,possibly he burned trash that day or somthing but for whatever reason the **** smelled somthing he liked that way and was going towards the house when the dog treed him about 60 yards across the line.now during deer season we line the backside of his fileds and he usally sits on a stump just right out back of the house a short ways in the woods and during the fall and winter hearing dogs is cause for excitement for him but this time of year without me giving him a heads up was cause for concern on his part.he thought some of the other clubs boys were up to no good when he saw spotlights,headlights and heard a dog bawling.
his land is not posted and all permission has been verbal and a handshake agreement.i asked if i could get it in writing just in case,especially since me coonhuntin is somthing new in that area and his kin folk.


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## rick64

chuckl said:


> yes he has had problems with another club down the street, sadly its all racial,this man is black and has had personal issues with the other club,he thought my dog was sombody elses dog.his problems with the other club has led to our club being able to use his land.nobody but me in my club **** hunts and you know darn good and well i just started back up form other post of mine on another site.had my dog been shot i would have blamed myself for not giving the man a heads up and that i would be out there in the wee hours of the morning ,but had he shot my dog i know full well that man would have bent over backwards to compensate me for my loss.bottom line the RTR saved my dog and put me in the position to have a talk with him and i can **** hunt with peace of mind.


Chuck I still don't see how the RTR helped you or was necessary for you to recover your dog. You have already stated that the landowner was OK with you and your dogs being on his land. I'm not saying that you were doing any wrong, you even admit that it would have been a good idea to give the landowner a heads up that you were in the area.

The only thing I can get from the information you provided is that the landowner does have problems with hounds and their owners trespassing on his land without prior permission. Because of the RTR he's forced to put up with a racist bunch of good ol' boys trespassing on his land 24/7/365. He probably doesn't report anything because the CPO couldn't do anything and fear of retaliation from the club. Can you blame him for carrying a gun to find out who is on his land in the middle of the night? Even if you didn't have permission to retrieve your dog, that landowners piece of mind and privacy on his own land isn't worth your dogs safety.


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## rick64

ButchA said:


> Chuck,
> 
> You were hunting on land that you had permission on. Your dog was on that very same land. I don't understand what the problem was (or is). Your dog didn't go busting off to God knows where onto someone else's land.
> 
> I'm just trying to get a good understanding of things. I guess I am still trying to be a peacekeeper or middleman, in the never-ending saga of still hunters and dog hunters.
> 
> I can see your point of view and have talked to you on the phone. But then, I can understand Moonkryket's point of view where he lives, being bombarded with deer hounds 24/7/365.


Butch it's not still hunters vs. hound hunters. The issue is with hounds and their owners going on land where they don't have permission to be.

The scenario Chuck just gave is a good example. I seen on another forum a houndsmen bragging that he could go in your barn, around your house anytime he wanted to look for his dogs and you couldn't do a damn thing about it(sent a copy of that to my Senator and Delegate). The point being that landowners are force to put up with this without recourse. It's a fact the RTR is abused and violation are very difficult to enforce.


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## BigBirdVA

More hound hunting fun stuff. Got this today from my wife's friend who is into saving dogs from the shelters. 

Here's the email. 



> Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 6:16 am
> Subject: Tappahannock, VA - Rescue fell through trans available
> 
> 
> Here's the pictures of amy and cracker with what information I have available:
> 
> Both of these girls were dropped at the shelter by a hunter. They both still had their painted numbers on their sides. They were covered in ticks and fleas, look like they were starving, and I believe, abused. Cracker had fur missing in several spots, and a huge cut in one of her ears. Amy would just shake when you came near her.
> 
> Cracker is the older of the two hounds. She has had all her shots, spay and is being treated for heart worms. Both dogs are on frontline. She has a sweet personality and I believe, the mother of amy. She is 4+ the vet is guessing. Amy follows her around and if you separate them, Cracker barks until Amy is returned to the pen with her.
> 
> Amy is the shy one. The vet guesses she is around 2. She has a non-malignant tumor on her head and the saddest eyes you have ever seen in a hound dog. She is very playful and active. I watch her play in the yard, rolling around in the grass, stealing my shoes, and chasing Cracker. She was actually adopted from a kind gentleman in Charlottesville that works with hound rescues. After a week or so, he brought her back. She would not do anything. He tried everything to get her to warm up, but she didn't. When he returned her to the shelter, he could not get over her spunk when she saw cracker. That's why we were trying to keep them together. They might be mom and daughter.
> 
> I think Amy is afraid of everyone, but men in general. She has started warming up to me, but very slowly. She follows me around the yard, but if I turn around and call her name,
> she goes the other direction.
> 
> I sent you pictures of the girls when they were in the shelter I am working on getting a little more weight on Cracker, Amy looks 100% better.
> 
> 
> Take care,
> Ellen Shifflett
> 
> [email protected]


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## chuckl

rick64 said:


> .
> 
> The only thing I can get from the information you provided is that the landowner does have problems with hounds and their owners trespassing on his land without prior permission. Because of the RTR he's forced to put up with a racist bunch of good ol' boys trespassing on his land 24/7/365. He probably doesn't report anything because the CPO couldn't do anything and fear of retaliation from the club. Can you blame him for carrying a gun to find out who is on his land in the middle of the night? Even if you didn't have permission to retrieve your dog, that landowners piece of mind and privacy on his own land isn't worth your dogs safety.


now how do you come to that conclusion? go back and read my post! i said he had PERSONAL issues with members of the other club.racial yes,but personal non the less.aint got nothin to do with the RTR or even huntin.


as for your last sentence....i guess thats were all the trouble starts.....i guess we will never see eye to eye on that


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## chuckl

sooooo what your saying or shall i say what she is saying in the email is she rescued those two dogs that were supposed have been put down months ago.actually what the girl at the shelter told me was as soon as they got a new vet they were gonna be put down.what happened to the other ones? never mind ill call down there and ask myself


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## BigBirdVA

chuckl said:


> sooooo what your saying or shall i say what she is saying in the email is she rescued those two dogs that were supposed have been put down months ago.actually what the girl at the shelter told me was as soon as they got a new vet they were gonna be put down.what happened to the other ones? never mind ill call down there and ask myself


The email is what it is. I don't keep up with them the friend does. There were 2 other pics with these dated 1/30/2009. I have no idea what the shelters do and time lines for dogs to be put down. They aren't rescued yet if you define rescue as out of the shelter and into a permanent home with an individual. 

I went through this with you before on another forum and you claimed the one in the group of pics was stolen and was supposed to be reunited with the owner.


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## rick64

chuckl said:


> now how do you come to that conclusion? go back and read my post! i said he had PERSONAL issues with members of the other club.racial yes,but personal non the less.aint got nothin to do with the RTR or even huntin.
> 
> 
> as for your last sentence....i guess thats were all the trouble starts.....i guess we will never see eye to eye on that


I took another look at your post and I quote "sadly its all racial". I can understand why he would have a personal issue with racist having free run of his land. 

I agree that we don't see eye to eye on the RTR, but if you take a all or nothing position I don't see any reason to compromise. 

What do I have to lose from taking a position to end the RTR? 

I try to keep a open mind, does anyone else think I'm missing something here?


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## rick64

BigBirdVA said:


> More hound hunting fun stuff. Got this today from my wife's friend who is into saving dogs from the shelters.
> 
> Here's the email.


BB IMO you should leave that stuff for the PETA freaks. It's true that the owner was a piece of crap if the dogs suffered from heart worms, fleas and ticks, but it doesn't have any bearing on the RTR.


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## BigBirdVA

rick64 said:


> BB IMO you should leave that stuff for the PETA freaks. It's true that the owner was a piece of crap if the dogs suffered from heart worms, fleas and ticks, but it doesn't have any bearing on the RTR.


I posted it because our resident chaser was on it before trying to reunite hounds and owners. I was wondering what happened with all that. Still this isn't just a RTR issue, it's what's wrong with the total package. What few they don't make angry with property rights they get with other problem areas. The AR's will use what some sporting dog hunters do to take out the rest. Funny you don't see those other sporting dogs in the pounds come Jan 10th.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> More hound hunting fun stuff. Got this today from my wife's friend who is into saving dogs from the shelters.
> 
> Here's the email.


Thats so typical of you Rick. You Peta Person.


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## Moon

*And you chasers best be looking over*

your shoulder for the "Peta persons".:clap:


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Thats so typical of you Rick. You Peta Person.


Typical chaser mentality in action. When you can't intelligently respond to the topic you attack the poster. But don't worry your no hunting on Sunday bedfellows, the HSUS, will show you how they really feel one day.


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## chuckl

> i posted it because our resident chaser was on it before trying to reunite hounds and owners. I was wondering what happened with all that.


one of the dogs was stolen and the owner did get him back,the other two i was told were gonna be put down.i personaly was going down there to get them but was told i was too late.
Not to mention you basicly called me a liar and what eles? Oh yeah a ****** on your site so what would be my motivation to help you or her? I tried and got insulted in the process so i said to hell with it.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Typical chaser mentality in action. When you can't intelligently respond to the topic you attack the poster. But don't worry your no hunting on Sunday bedfellows, the HSUS, will show you how they really feel one day.


Rick what is typical is using the tatics of peta and hsus for a leg up. show everyone ignorant to hunting with dogs pictures of mistreated or skinny animals and give them a sad story so they will be for your cause and turn against hound hunting.

Those dogs were turned in by the owner you said. It is the owner of these dogs that is wrong here and not every hunting dog owner in virginia. stop sterotyping all deer chasers or hunting dog owners into your verison of what they are because your inncorrect and it is plain bs and cosmetic to appear as to what you want it too.

Rick your a sad person indeed. I don't feel sorry for you. you deserve all the treatment you get from hunters for the bs you try and portray on these forums. You lie your azz off to push your no hunting dog ban.


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## chuckl

> pictures of mistreated or skinny animals


MY SKINNY MISTREATED DISEASE RIDDEN 100 POUND HOUND


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## Moon

*Good for you*

Nice dog. I love mine too but he's never stuck one foot on another's private property. Neither have I, knowingly. I love dogs. You need to be honest and admit to yourself that the skinny deer chasing dog thing is real and happens all too aften, quite a few of them like this, around January 6 each year, unfortunately. Yeah, I know..............just a small percentage.............face it, in many many cases those dogs are just "tools" of the trade. Too bad


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## BigBirdVA

Here's another that didn't make it. Chasing deer on others lands and across major roads. Owner was 10 miles away on a Sat night watching TV and popping tops. Too lazy to go look for his 2 missing hounds from the days hunt. It had a tracking collar and name tag. I stayed with the hound until he arrived. Then called the next day to see the fate of the dog. Only to find out instead of a visit to a vet he gave it 2 shots of penicillin. I had no idea that was used for shock, internal injuries and internal bleeding. Amazing what you can learn from the chasers. They're so smart and treat their hounds just like 1 of the family. 

HM 1 call to your Judas and he would have taken care of it for the guy. You're so far up denial you may never get back to reality.


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## chuckl

*your right moon*

and ive never said any diffrent.any man that lets his dogs get soooo skinny should not be allowed to own them nor in my book a true houndsman,now there is diffrence in a slim dog that weighs in the range of what that particular breed should in a performance state.an under fed under weight hound can not possibly preform well.nor can a dog overweight perform at its peak level neither,if pushed too hard they can have kidney and heart problem among other things


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Here's another that didn't make it. Chasing deer on others lands and across major roads. Owner was 10 miles away on a Sat night watching TV and popping tops. Too lazy to go look for his 2 missing hounds from the days hunt. It had a tracking collar and name tag. I stayed with the hound until he arrived. Then called the next day to see the fate of the dog. Only to find out instead of a visit to a vet he gave it 2 shots of penicillin. I had no idea that was used for shock, internal injuries and internal bleeding. Amazing what you can learn from the chasers. They're so smart and treat their hounds just like 1 of the family.
> 
> HM 1 call to your Judas and he would have taken care of it for the guy. You're so far up denial you may never get back to reality.


Rick your just as much to blame for not reporting this butthead for animal neglect than he was for neglecting it. If you see these things going on report it. don't wait year or so later and use it in your attack method against hunting dog owners to prove a point. Speak up when it happens and demand action to be taken.  I feel bad for the dog and am mad at you and the owner for your ignorance.


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## BigBirdVA

Hokieman said:


> Rick your just as much to blame for not reporting this butthead for animal neglect than he was for neglecting it. If you see these things going on report it. don't wait year or so later and use it in your attack method against hunting dog owners to prove a point. Speak up when it happens and demand action to be taken.  I feel bad for the dog and am mad at you and the owner for your ignorance.


Ignoring it solves a lot. My ignorance? What for not just going oh well and keeping quiet on their abuse and neglect? It's always someone else's fault for pointing it out or they're XXXXXX (fill in the blank) and so on. You're totally clueless. Tip for you just because it's a hunting dog to you and your kind it isn't to many, many others. That mentality along with the other items you don't feel are important will be your downfall. I feel for you and the plethora of chasers that think like you. 

LOL report him? For what? My word against 3 of his fellow chasers on the dogs condition? The story would be he died before he could get to the vet. I know I should have taped the phone call right? It would be just like the 'it didn't run" hound shot by Judas. My word against his and a county AC and VDGIF officials that turn their head on houndmen and their actions. Funny not a single person on SD spoke up against shooting the hound when I replied to that post. That pretty much says it all.



Hey here's a great idea for you. Create a turn in a houndsman program through your VAHDA org. Reward for conviction of abuse or neglect on a hound. You could even throw in stupidity but it would break the bank. Still the reward for abandoning a hunting dog thing you have going is a classic. Uh.....anyone over there run this through all the way before they started the thing? If caught all they have to say is he got out of the pen or he was chasing 'yotes. "No officer he ran 23 miles and lost his collar too. I've been looking all week for him". Too darn funny ! Same lines they pull for chasing deer out of season. What brainiac thought that swell idea up?:der: Do you really expect some chaser to just pull up in front of a house or a place other vehicles are coming and going and dump a hound out? 30 seconds on any remote back road at midnight and it's a done deal. It will never be proven or the reward given out to anyone.


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## Hokieman

BigBirdVA said:


> Ignoring it solves a lot. My ignorance? What for not just going oh well and keeping quiet on their abuse and neglect? It's always someone else's fault for pointing it out or they're XXXXXX (fill in the blank) and so on. You're totally clueless. Tip for you just because it's a hunting dog to you and your kind it isn't to many, many others. That mentality along with the other items you don't feel are important will be your downfall. I feel for you and the plethora of chasers that think like you.
> 
> LOL report him? For what? My word against 3 of his fellow chasers on the dogs condition? The story would be he died before he could get to the vet. I know I should have taped the phone call right? It would be just like the 'it didn't run" hound shot by Judas. My word against his and a county AC and VDGIF officials that turn their head on houndmen and their actions. Funny not a single person on SD spoke up against shooting the hound when I replied to that post. That pretty much says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey here's a great idea for you. Create a turn in a houndsman program through your VAHDA org. Reward for conviction of abuse or neglect on a hound. You could even throw in stupidity but it would break the bank. Still the reward for abandoning a hunting dog thing you have going is a classic. Uh.....anyone over there run this through all the way before they started the thing? If caught all they have to say is he got out of the pen or he was chasing 'yotes. "No officer he ran 23 miles and lost his collar too. I've been looking all week for him". Too darn funny ! Same lines they pull for chasing deer out of season. What brainiac thought that swell idea up?:der: Do you really expect some chaser to just pull up in front of a house or a place other vehicles are coming and going and dump a hound out? 30 seconds on any remote back road at midnight and it's a done deal. It will never be proven or the reward given out to anyone.


That was meant for people like you Rick who would pick up a hound and haul it off to the next county pound and turn it in. If found out we will work with the prosecuting attorney and throw your butt in jail. no stealing, no killing, no hauling off a hound or we will work with the local offices to see you in jail. Heh Rick you ever get caught I'll have bubba show you the 2 step howl.


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## Moon

*Bird*

and HE called you ignorant His head is likely super glued up his azz.


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## rick64

Look at this http://pub16.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=1362885345&frmid=4&msgid=935897&cmd=show

Hard to say if the guy was justified in shooting those dogs, but looks like he did follow the letter of the law. Kind of like "When the chase begins........" 
Typical response's, but nobody mentions that if the owner had kept his dogs off the farmer's property, it would have never happened. How would the VFB side on this and would it affect their support of the RTR in the future after all the "suggestions" for retaliation. Sent a link to the DGIF and VFB, they can read it for themselves.

Perfect example of why landowners don't report complaints against hounds, that landowner had probably had enough. He would get the same threats if had called the local LE.


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## rick64

BigBirdVA said:


> I posted it because our resident chaser was on it before trying to reunite hounds and owners. I was wondering what happened with all that. Still this isn't just a RTR issue, it's what's wrong with the total package. What few they don't make angry with property rights they get with other problem areas. The AR's will use what some sporting dog hunters do to take out the rest. Funny you don't see those other sporting dogs in the pounds come Jan 10th.


BB look at this, http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/052009/05302009/469479

The shelters have their share of incompetent workers also. Focus on the RTR issues. There's a reason you don't see as many non hound sporting dogs in the pounds, but that doesn't have anything to do with the RTR. If you would look at states like PA, MD, and DE they would have a smaller % of hounds in their pounds.


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## ButchA

Rick64, I just read those "retaliation posts" on Speed Dogs... I'm sitting here like... :mg: :mmph:

The dogs were on someone else's land, chasing cattle. The farmer has the law on his side, from what I gather. But the dog runners comments on Speed Dogs really blew my mind!

I couldn't shoot a dog no matter what, no way, no how. If I was the farmer, I'd try to get the dogs, give them a few dog biscuits and some water, then try to find the owner. If I couldn't locate the owner, I'd call the dog pound.


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## ban_t

Moonkryket said:


> Most SE Virginians can. For those of you that live in states where hunting is really hunitng, this happens to be a "tree stand" for shooting at deer being chased by hound dogs. School buses and autos come within 10 feet of the platform. Real hunting huh? And the deer chasers want us to support their so called "hunting" methods. Right! This stand,and another one like it situated about 50 yards down the road, is on Cabin Point Road just off route 460. Between November 15 and January 5, wave to the shooter and blow your horn as you drive by. This is a well used pave highway that connects 460 to route 10 in the sunken Meadow area.


"Shooting From the Road is Illegal

Shooting at wildlife from a vehicle and/or from or across a public road is illegal. Penalties include: fines, license revocation and confiscation of firearms"
That was a copy of the words from the general regulations for 
Virgina hunting regulations. I t looks to me that you would be shooting down, up or across the road due to the location of the stand. Also it could be sitting in the easement of what appears too be a County Road. So with that said did anyone call the local law to have it removed? Or calling the local Street dept too remove it. Not only is it a safety issue it's just plain wrong
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/local-ordinances.pdf 
As I see I do not care if you hunt with a dog or not, but hunting along roads and violating the laws set in place for the safety of others you not only endanger others. You endanger the chance of your own hunting privilege. Thus laws will change, privilege's removed and you will lose the chance too follow your hunting choices.


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## Hokieman

ban_t said:


> "Shooting From the Road is Illegal
> 
> Shooting at wildlife from a vehicle and/or from or across a public road is illegal. Penalties include: fines, license revocation and confiscation of firearms"
> That was a copy of the words from the general regulations for
> Virgina hunting regulations. I t looks to me that you would be shooting down, up or across the road due to the location of the stand. Also it could be sitting in the easement of what appears too be a County Road. So with that said did anyone call the local law to have it removed? Or calling the local Street dept too remove it. Not only is it a safety issue it's just plain wrong
> http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/local-ordinances.pdf
> As I see I do not care if you hunt with a dog or not, but hunting along roads and violating the laws set in place for the safety of others you not only endanger others. You endanger the chance of your own hunting privilege. Thus laws will change, privilege's removed and you will lose the chance too follow your hunting choices.


Some Va counties require you to be across the ditch line. Is this one? Did you ever think to check before posting? I guess not.:embara:


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## BigBirdVA

ban_t said:


> "Shooting From the Road is Illegal
> 
> Shooting at wildlife from a vehicle and/or from or across a public road is illegal. Penalties include: fines, license revocation and confiscation of firearms"
> That was a copy of the words from the general regulations for
> Virgina hunting regulations. I t looks to me that you would be shooting down, up or across the road due to the location of the stand. Also it could be sitting in the easement of what appears too be a County Road. So with that said did anyone call the local law to have it removed? Or calling the local Street dept too remove it. Not only is it a safety issue it's just plain wrong
> http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/local-ordinances.pdf
> As I see I do not care if you hunt with a dog or not, but hunting along roads and violating the laws set in place for the safety of others you not only endanger others. You endanger the chance of your own hunting privilege. Thus laws will change, privilege's removed and you will lose the chance too follow your hunting choices.


The law gives each county permission to use that law. It's not a blanket or automatic law for everywhere in VA. If a county chooses to allow zero from a road they can. Some do and some have distances up to 100 yds.


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## Moon

*First off*

What idiot would actually sit in this road platform while calling himself a hunter? There must be some because they built it and it's still there as of this morning.

I think I'll start a new thread about what I overheard this morning from 2 deer chasers. They were doing some real whining.


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## BigBirdVA

Moonkryket said:


> What idiot would actually sit in this road platform while calling himself a hunter? There must be some because they built it and it's still there as of this morning.
> 
> I think I'll start a new thread about what I overheard this morning from 2 deer chasers. They were doing some real whining.


I think Alpo makes cheese flavored treats.


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## Moon

*Maybe I read it wrong*

but from reading the post about the guy's 2 dogs getting shot for chasing a famer's cows, another deer chaser poster suggested the farmer's cows might get sick or shot. That's the mentality we are dealing with folks. Nails in driveways, bullet holes in cars and now having your cattle shot on YOUR property for trying to protect your private property and what's on it. Pretty sick, huh?


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