# Do Not Buy A Mathews Bow!!!



## Lordform

Fellow archers,

I truly hate to speak badly about any business but I am in a position where I must. 

I have been looking to get a new cable roller for my Mathews LX. The guy in my area has marked it up exponentially (Jet Outdoors in Miami, FL), whereas a bowshop in Tampa (Arrowhead Archery) is selling the part for $20.00 less. 

The problem is Mathews has a policy that prohibits its dealers from sending out merchandise to end users; even parts. The guy in my area knows this and is exploiting it.

I called Mathews and spoke to Jeff as well as his supervisor Shea. They adamantly refused to bend in policy to allow me to save the $20.00. Upon my mention that I would have to sell my bow due to parts being so hard to obtain, they were both completely apathetic and acted as though Mathews, for the most part, does not need my business. 

It also appears that Mathews has a policy that prevents its customers from getting parts sent, but does not have a policy to keep its dealers from exploiting the local customers.

My advice to you all is get a bow from a different company. At least then you will have the option to shop around and get parts for the lowest price.

Finally, and I think most importantly, you will be able to experience customer service at a more tolerable level. Those in business who do not know the power of word-of mouth always learn the hard way. I won't go out of my way to bad mouth this company (beyond this post) but if ANYONE ever asks me about a bow or which to get, I will be sure to recommend they stay away from Mathews.

This is pathetic.


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## Slippy Field

This post could be big if its anything like the Bowtech conversation ended up..........................

Lordform, give ya $50 for your bow? What draw length are you?


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## Lordform

Slippy Field said:


> This post could be big if its anything like the Bowtech conversation ended up..........................
> 
> Lordform, give ya $50 for your bow? What draw length are you?



LMAO Slippy....I am almost sick enough to take you up on that

This is unbelievable.


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## pinshooter

I do feel your pain. Unfortunately they can't change the guidelines for one without change them for all. Some dealers do take great advantage of this but a lot of companies have the same policy. The reason is to keep the dealers from selling bows on the Internet. The only company I can think of right now that will let dealers trade parts and ship parts directly to shooters is PSE\AR\Browning. I do commend them for that. Fortunately I have a good dealer but there is one in my area that does exactly what you are experiencing.


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## ursonvs

what is wrong with your cable roller that wouldn't put it under warranty?

next time...take this advice.

do a search for griv's post on posting etiquette. you might learn a few things from it cause trust me buddy, you just opened a big ole can-o-worms.

now on with the rest of the 89 posts and 1200 views this things is gonna get cause of you typing before thinking, good job.


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## jskd

I can just hear the mathews shooters stampeding to this post:tongue:


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## distorted

> My advice to you all is get a bow from a different company. At least then you will have the option to shop around and get parts for the lowest price.


to the best of my knowledge mathews dosent prevent you from doing this! all you have to do is drive a little further and obtain what it is your looking for at the better price. :thumbs_up


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## Lordform

ursonvs said:


> what is wrong with your cable roller that wouldn't put it under warranty?
> 
> next time...take this advice.
> 
> do a search for griv's post on posting etiquette. you might learn a few things from it cause trust me buddy, you just opened a big ole can-o-worms.
> 
> now on with the rest of the 89 posts and 1200 views this things is gonna get cause of you typing before thinking, good job.



Are you some kind of idiot? How do you know I typed before thinking? And what ettiquette was not followed? 

Here is some etiquette for you....If you don't have something legitimate to contribute keep your typing fingers in your pockets.

If a company has good customer service, we should commend them for it (see my post on hunter'sfriend.com). If their service is on the negative end, we should make other potential customers aware in like fashion.

Had I known that I would not be able to shop around for parts for my bow, I would not have gotten this bow. With this knowledge, it is my job to let others know before putting down their 6-700+ bucks so they can make a more informed decision.


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## mobowhntr

Honestly, I would not blame Mathews. I would blame the shop, bad business practices. But in all fairness they do have a right to make money. Why not just drive to another dealer and buy the part?


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## Lordform

distorted said:


> to the best of my knowledge mathews dosent prevent you from doing this! all you have to do is drive a little further and obtain what it is your looking for at the better price. :thumbs_up



Mathews prevents another dealer from shipping a part. Yes, one could drive up the road and get a better deal.....but usually, the money saved in the deal ends up being spent on gas and the headache of traffic.

I can understand not shipping a bow, but parts.....sorry.


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## VaporShtr

Shouldn't the thread title be "Don't do business with Jet Outdoors". I'm sure Mathews would assume some liability if the parts went straight to you and something ungood happened.


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## Myk

This is just part of the unfair business practices that some of the major bow makers take part in.
If this was a bigger industry or one that mattered I'm sure the government would step in.

Why are these businesses (both the manufacturers and the shops) afraid of competition? Why do the customers put up with it and support these businesses and manufacturers?


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## Hoyt Dude

:fencing: Man you just stepped on a lot of Mathews toes.


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## evworld

If your the original owner your roller guard should be covered under warranty.


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## Doc Holliday

Haha been there done that.

I only buy used or if I do buy new, it's from a chain. 

I don't have to shoot a 1000 bow to shoot bad.  lol


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## Marcus

I think this guy is justified with being ticked off. 
Can someone like Lancaster help you out? Can you find a friend to ship the parts to?

As for the "oh this is a brand bashing" crowd in this thread: Grow up!


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## Greg W

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I will say that over time I have heard more complaints by Mathews owners than the owners of any other brand, and I have spent a lot of time on various archery forums. While I can understand why Mathews places “some” restrictions on the sell of its products, the thing that really bothers me is the repeated accounts of indifference if not down right arrogance on the part of Mathews customer service. Just seems to me that competition in the industry is so stiff that it will eventually cost them big time. There are some pathetic individuals with serious identity problems that will come completely unglued if someone dares to criticize the company that manufacturers the particular bow they shoot, but I think such criticism servers the archery community well. Several years ago, PSE was the recipient of a lot of criticism for their customer service. Now they are regarded as one of the better companies, if not the best, to help a customer.


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## 4snshine

*sorry you had a bad experience!*

but i have had several dealings with mathews customer service over warranty issues, and i was very pleased with thier responce. i've always shot mathews and always will- even though you had a bad experience- you need to relize your problem is with your dealer not mathews! all dealers get bows/parts for the same price and have to follow the same policies, if they chose to price gouge, find a better dealer don't bash mathews for setting company policy, commend them for sticking to it. what your saying whould be comparable to saying don't buy bud light beer because 7-11 charges $1 more than kroger for a six pack and anheuser-busch won't let kroger mail you a six pack. buy the way i won't quit drinking bud light either!


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## low12

Double looser here, I have got a Bowtech and a Mathews.


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## One eye

Thanks for sharing your experiences and possibly saving others the grief. Contrary to the "group hug" crowd here, I do not find your post out of line. You shared your experiences with a company and let others decide how they want to interpret them.

Good luck.

Dan


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## PMantle

4snshine said:


> but i have had several dealings with mathews customer service over warranty issues, and i was very pleased with thier responce. i've always shot mathews and always will- even though you had a bad experience- you need to relize your problem is with your dealer not mathews! all dealers get bows/parts for the same price and have to follow the same policies, if they chose to price gouge, find a better dealer don't bash mathews for setting company policy, commend them for sticking to it. what your saying whould be comparable to saying don't buy bud light beer because 7-11 charges $1 more than kroger for a six pack and anheuser-busch won't let kroger mail you a six pack. buy the way i won't quit drinking bud light either!


:thumbs_up Pretty much sums it up.


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## Les

IMO........What is your problem with Mathews? Sounds like you have a bad relationship with your Mathews dealer!

The requirement of having to go through your Mathews dealer directly to buy replacement parts is a small price to pay in exchange for the excellent warranty provided by Mathews to original purchasers of their bows. If your cable guard is broken/defective, let the dealer fix it through the warranty program. Or, did you buy the bow second-hand and can not honestly request warranty service?

Are you just looking to upgrade to a double dampener? Why? It will not make a major difference on your LX. I have tried it.

If you were the registered original purchaser, Mathews will take care of you. I have seen that firsthand! If you just want a part, you have to deal with your dealer. Negotiate if you do not like the price. Do you spend much money at that shop? Look for ways to haggle on the price, offer trade in of the old part, and let them professionally install the new part and keep your warranty in check if you are indeed the original purchaser.


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## Top Cat

Myk said:


> This is just part of the unfair business practices that some of the major bow makers take part in.
> If this was a bigger industry or one that mattered I'm sure the government would step in.
> 
> You mean like they did with the oil companys?


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## Myk

> if they chose to price gouge, find a better dealer don't bash mathews for setting company policy, commend them for sticking to it.


Their company policy is to set up monopolies (as far as the consumer is concerned).
This breeds stores who gouge because they can.
If they are going to limit a store's competition to protect the store they should set the store's prices to protect their customer. But it sounds like they don't care about their customer.

How long do you think one of the big 3 auto makers would get away with it if they said only one car dealer for that make within 300 miles?


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## Urban_Redneck

Last year I decided to buy a new bow. 

While at a local dealer I was looking at the accessory rack and spied a snappy looking Matthews 2 peice quiver- the price was $149! I decided at that moment that Matt was too proud for my wallet.

Compared to most here, I am a neophyte, but it's easy to see why many Matthews dealers really push the bows.


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## hawgdawg

May have missed it but question of why roller was not covered under warranty of course unless you are not the original owner. Fill us in on ownership question before we continue all the negatives about Mathews.


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## juano2001

Someone on here would buy it and mail it to you. Lots of good guys here. I have one bowshop within 400 miles so I gotta shop online alot, will suck if I get stuck like that with my matthews, if i ever get it


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## Les

I researched Lordform's previous posts, and low and behold, he bought the bow second-hand from a friend! He is not the original owner!

I see how it works for him.....he was enlightened by his dealer on how the warranty on the LX is no good to him. Was he just expecting to get this "newly purchased" cable guard installed for free? He does not understand that the dealers perform warranty work labor without compensation from Mathews, why should they do it for him for free when he buys one, or brings one in? Bet that explains the higher price of the part, his dealer also knew installation labor was requested when he purchases the part. He has already changed cams! Wonder how much he paid his dealer for labor?

This should explain to some the premium paid to purchase a brand new Mathews bow from the dealer. The warranty covers more than just parts!


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## HV Bowman

*I feel your pain.*

Here's a link to my post about Mathews and their monopolistic, anti fair trade policies. I know what you going through. It's too bad they have such an arrogant attitude when it comes to their customers satisfaction. From what I have seen so far, the only folks they want to protect and satisfy is their dealers and themselves. The customers be damned. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=247104


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## Lordform

4snshine said:


> but i have had several dealings with mathews customer service over warranty issues, and i was very pleased with thier responce. i've always shot mathews and always will- even though you had a bad experience- you need to relize your problem is with your dealer not mathews! all dealers get bows/parts for the same price and have to follow the same policies, if they chose to price gouge, find a better dealer don't bash mathews for setting company policy, commend them for sticking to it. what your saying whould be comparable to saying don't buy bud light beer because 7-11 charges $1 more than kroger for a six pack and anheuser-busch won't let kroger mail you a six pack. buy the way i won't quit drinking bud light either!


I think you may have missed my point bud.


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## Doc Holliday

And people wonder why so many people go online for their archery purchases.


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## Lordform

Les said:


> I researched Lordform's previous posts, and low and behold, he bought the bow second-hand from a friend! He is not the original owner!
> 
> I see how it works for him.....he was enlightened by his dealer on how the warranty on the LX is no good to him. Was he just expecting to get this "new" cable guard installed for free? He does not understand that the dealers perform warranty work labor without compensation from Mathews, why should they do it for him for free? Bet that explains the higher price of the part, his dealer also knows installation labor is required when he purchases the part. He has already changed cams! Wonder how much he paid his dealer for labor?
> 
> This should explain to some the premium paid to purchase a brand new Mathews bow from the dealer. The warranty covers more than just parts!



Les, Les, Les.....You let the cat out the bag didnt you??

Oh, wait a sec....since you are SO good at research, take another little bitty gander at my original post. My friend, I never at any time said the part was to be covered under warranty. In fact, I mentioned my trying to buy it.

I hope your occupation in life has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a thorough detecitve.


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## Lordform

HV Bowman said:


> Here's a link to my post about Mathews and their monopolistic, anti fair trade policies. I know what you going through. It's too bad they have such an arrogant attitude when it comes to their customers satisfaction. From what I have seen so far, the only folks they want to protect and satisfy is their dealers and themselves. The customers be damned.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=247104



HV...this link is the very essence of my post. Thank you a ton for helping me get this across.


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## Doc Holliday

> whereas a bowshop in Tampa is selling the part for $20.00 less


Where does it say he was trying to get anything for free?


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## preyquester

*roller*

i had one go bad on my lx (last week) got on AT & had a good trade in one day , 3 days later i was up & shooting....you got a putter & AT ..try it.


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## spicman

*thanks*

thanks for sharing your experince. i own a mathews. but , that`s not the only bow i own. check out pearson for price and service.


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## HV Bowman

*Les*

If you read the original post you might have noticed that nowhere in it did Lordform ever mention warranty or having the dealer install the part. You might want to try sticking to the point that was being made and not add things to comment on that weren't in the post to start with. 

I also have a similar problem with Mathews and their arrogant policies and my problem has nothing to do with warranties or installation of parts. I can do all the work on my bows and don't need a pro shop to handle the installation. The Problem stems from not being able to get the parts in a timely and fair manner. Mathews in my opinion doesn't care about their customers as much as about protecting their dealers.


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## Myk

Les, are you telling everyone not to buy a used Mathews' because they'll get screwed?
I don't think those who trade their bows off every year will be too thrilled with that idea.

As for Mathews sticking the dealer to warranty the labor, that's just another business practice that people shouldn't put up with.


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## ursonvs

ahhhhh....good find there Les. I had sensed it was a 2nd owner bow. 

Lord, no worries on my contributions, it was a good one for everybody to learn by but i don't apologize by the way you took it because i knew you would go off.

here is a idea, drive to tampa, save the 20 bucks on that roller guard but pay no attention to the 60 bucks you will spend on the 7 hour round trip from miami to tampa via the alley. what matters most is you saved that 20 dollars and not only screwed your local dealer out of more cash buy not buying it from him and basically, not buying the bow in general from him. 

we get enough bow bashing/company bashing/ when will my damn bow get here threads you are like all the other moles. 

FYI, I have deleted about two paragraphs of flaming you to promote "posting etiquette".


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## Dean Lawter

*Feel your pain*

I have 4 Mathews bows at present and have had more in the past. Although I have never had a warranty claim with them, I have had one consistent problem. Talking to them is fruitless! My problem is this: every bow I have will not make the specified poundage after receiving them. They say strings creep after installation and must be twisted a few times to get A to A and brace height right, poundage will be right then. You should not have to shorten them by as much as one inch. Don't try to talk to them about it because you are stupid and they are all knowing. Never mind the fact that you well be a rocket scientist. They don't even wanna talk about it. Read some posts in here though and you will see where the Ovation experienced this and Mathews changed the lengths on that bow. So why is it so hard to beleive it is a problem on both of my LX's, my Apex and my C3. I was even told that the cable length on the Apex has even changed. I do have an Apex 7 ordered and love to shoot these bows, but they will all have custom strings on them.

As far as parts go, who cares about the second owner thing, if you can't look at a bow and see if it has been mistreated, you need to let someone who can. Maybe the guy dropped it and feels he is responsible for damage and is willing to pay for repair. Ride to Tampa, say to the heck with Jet Outdoors, they are your real problem. I'm sure Mathews would fix the bow if you shipped it to them and paid them to do, if it is not a warranty claim.

My point is, it ain't perfect, but I still like the bows.


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## swackhamer

DUDE Sounds to me like you should be pissed at the shop for gouging you:thumbs_do !! Instead of whining blindley! 
The only one preventing you from shoping around is you. Just find a reputible shop in the area. Im sure some one on AT knows one. Its that simple! there are 2 mathews dealers in my area but neither one can service s**t So now I go to lancaster archery:thumbs_up a 1.5 hr ride but for the service ill drive it and not whine.


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## jbwisconsin

Lordform, I have to agree with you on the mathews dealers exploiting customers. The vast popularity of the mathews bows has dealers in an excellant situation. They really dont need your business becauase five minutes after you leave someone else will walk thru the door and buy that part or a new mathews bow. This whole infatuation with mathews has spawned alot of piss poor dealers who are interested in making sales only and have no idea how to service any of the bows. I have first hand knowledge of some of these dealers from my area. I would be happy to tell you about my experiences, pm me. In short I bought a legacy when they were brand new and couldnt get the dealer to adjust anything on it. I then bought a switch back which was supposed to be brand new, from a different dealer mind you only to find out it was the shooter bow for the shop and not in the draw length I specified. Needless to say that ended my mathews "infatuation" and I am now shooting Hoyt again. I never should have left Hoyt! All the mathews dealers I have come into contact with are not that knowledgable on the mathews line of bows and the proper specs and adjustments to get them to shoot. Their are a number of people on the mathews site that are very knowledgable but how do you get them to work on your bow? In short most of the mathews crowd on their site do their own bow work. What does that tell you? It tells me that mathews is making a bundle and doesnt really care about the end consumer. It may have me soured to mathews forever. I now deal with a Hoyt dealer who is excellant in every way. I have shot most all of the bows out there and to be honest mathews doesnt offer anything that is heads and tails above the rest. If you can get over the stigma of not shooting a mathews you will be much happier in the end with a good dealer who sells a goood product and stands behind it.:teeth:


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## Les

Mathews was not preventing you from obtaining the part. Your local dealer had the part in stock. As a company policy, they do not sell replacement parts directly to end users, probably due to liability concerns. That is not at all unique in buisness. Your local dealer had the part, and I stand to believe they were charging a premium in order to cover the installation of the purchased part.

Had you just stated in your original post you were NOT the registered original owner, it would have been clear to all you were venting without merit.


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## bowtech dually

This site is going so slow I hope you get this by midnight.
Lordform I had a similar experience with a Bowtech dealer whom I ordered a 4 arrow quiver from. After purchasing it I noticed I had paid approx $4 over retail. I never contacted Bowtech about this and just decided not to do business with that dealer again, I hope he thinks making a few bucks off me was worth losing hundreds of additional dollars in business. It sounds as if this gentleman also was trying to sell above suggested retail and if that is the case and Mathews sits quietly by as there customers are price gouged then I too would do no further business with such a company. I dont understand these brand loyal individuals, they must receive Mathews sponsership, I know my handle is BD but if another bow comes along by another company that I prefer that's what I'll be shooting.
Best wishes
BD


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## mobowhntr

The way I see it is he has every right to be mad at the dealer. $20.00 more than the shop down the street is price gouging. I would be mad and so would most of you. The shop is price gouging, nothing more nothing less.:thumbs_do


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## Lordform

ursonvs said:


> ahhhhh....good find there Les. I had sensed it was a 2nd owner bow.
> 
> Lord, no worries on my contributions, it was a good one for everybody to learn by but i don't apologize by the way you took it because i knew you would go off.
> 
> here is a idea, drive to tampa, save the 20 bucks on that roller guard but pay no attention to the 60 bucks you will spend on the 7 hour round trip from miami to tampa via the alley. what matters most is you saved that 20 dollars and not only screwed your local dealer out of more cash buy not buying it from him and basically, not buying the bow in general from him.
> 
> we get enough bow bashing/company bashing/ when will my damn bow get here threads you are like all the other moles.
> 
> FYI, I have deleted about two paragraphs of flaming you to promote "posting etiquette".


My friend, if I were to "go off" on you, you would require a thesaurus, a dictionary and your third grade son to help you figure out what I am saying.

Your replies have had nothing to do with my post. In fact, you would appear to be a closet Mathews sympathizer- perhaps even an employee.

In the future, since etiquette seems to be your peave, try PM'ing me or whomever you feel you are better than so your venom won't distort the nature of the thread- which is "Buyer Beware"

Thanks for the great times though and have a super day.


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## juano2001

Les said:


> This should explain to some the premium paid to purchase a brand new Mathews bow from the dealer. The warranty covers more than just parts!


Good one Les, buy new or else pay an extortion fee to your local dealer for parts, that should encourage more peope to out out and buy new Matthews bows. Should be real easy to sell em after. I love the Matthews bows but I would never pay any dealer an unreasonable amount for a part I would sell it first and never look back


If you got a piss poor attitude from a customer service rep, I would take it higher. There is no way a company as big as Matthews does not realize how this can really bite em in the rear. The internet makes it real easy to let others know when this happens. Bet anything you get the part for free if you complain up the ladder

or

I am sure if you advertise on here for the part someone will help you out.


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## Les

Lordform,
I have not attacked you personally. I just feel you were not completely open about your situation in your first post. Enough so that you did not have a valid argument allowing you to bash a specific manufacturer.

I have only tried to communicate what I have learned about Mathews products, service, and obtaining parts. Had you posted something on AT regarding your desire for a new cable guard, someone (including me) could have helped you get the part you needed, probably at a price that would make you very happy! And this situation would not have happened!

I am all for purchasing used equipment! I bought an LX from an upstanding member of this site through the AT classifieds! I own three Mathews bows, two of them purchased from a great dealer as the original owner. I feel very confident Mathews will take care of ANY problem on those two under warranty! That makes up for the high sticker price I paid the dealer, at least in my mind! But I also know my LX will cost me parts AND labor if I send it in for a repair due to the fact it is a second-owner bow. The money I saved in the purchase price will more than make up for that repair if ever needed.

A discussion of transferrable warranties is not part of Lordform's original post.
That would be a long and painful discussion, full of legal-eze!


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## Lordform

juano2001 said:


> Good one Les, buy new or else pay an extortion fee to your local dealer for parts, that should encourage more peope to out out and buy new Matthews bows. Should be real easy to sell em after. I love the Matthews bows but I would never pay any dealer an unreasonable amount for a part I would sell it first and never look back
> 
> 
> If you got a piss poor attitude from a customer service rep, I would take it higher. There is no way a company as big as Matthews does not realize how this can really bite em in the rear. The internet makes it real easy to let others know when this happens. Bet anything you get the part for free if you complain up the ladder
> 
> or
> 
> I am sure if you advertise on here for the part someone will help you out.



I have to admit, I did not even think to try to find the part here first. Thanks for the suggestion.

FYI: I did complain up the ladder, just short of the pres. They told me he wouldnt talk to me- " that's why we are here". this came from Shea, the customer service manager.

Thanks again for the suggestion though.I will definitely give it a shot.


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## Doc Holliday

All the man wanted was to BUY a part and not have to back into the dealership with his pants down around his ankles to do it.

I swear, the only thing worse than policies like this are the "defenders" that try and turn things around to make the person who refused to get raped look bad.



> My friend, if I were to "go off" on you, you would require a thesaurus, a dictionary and your third grade son to help you figure out what I am saying.


That my friend is what is called *OWNAGE*.


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## Camperdan

*This isn't right*

It is amazing to me that so many of my fellow ATers would condone this type of practice/customer service. How, as the archery community, can this type of corporate behavior, be tolerated. If I buy a new car, I can go wherever I want to buy service or parts for it. If you want something closer to our heart, you could use this analogy with a new rifle. Most people wouldn't accept these buisness practices. I personally have nothing against Mathews. I have owned Hoyt, PSE, Bear, etc, so I do not have some hidden agenda. My point would be, slow down and put yourself in the worst case scenario and think, would I really want to deal with a company that ran this way?


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## ursonvs

not a third grade son but he is in second....very close though...

i don't think i am above anyone bud, but over the years being on here its been getting worse in the "complain about companies" area and several others.

this rule about sending parts over the mail was not made up just in the past two weeks. i am sure it is done, just not for you.

dang, i was far off on this, now i am guessing 150 posts, 1500 views, and at least 5 pages.

no more from me tonight, good luck with getting your bow fixed.


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## HV Bowman

*Originally posted by Les*


> Had you just stated in your original post you were NOT the registered original owner, it would have been clear to all you were venting without merit.


*Well whats clear to me is that you don't get it.* 

First of all what right does that dealer or any dealer have to take it for granted the they will be the ones to install the part that was bought. 

Secondly if they sell the part to the customer without installation it blows your liability claim right out of the water. 

What your trying to tell us is that the only way that we should be allowed to buy any part from Mathews is if we are willing to pay whatever price a dealer wants to charge for it but also that the dealer will only sell it if he gets to install it too. If that was true then anyone who finds that out and continues to purchase that companies products is either a fool or an idiot. 

As far as your idea that Mathews policies are not unique in business, maybe not unique but Mathews has taken the practice to a new level. Most manufactures I have dealt with before other then Mathews have sold parts to me through a multitude of different ways with no whining about liability 
You seem to have no dog in this fight yet you want to protect the status quo of a policy that is anti consumer on it's very face. Maybe you have something to protect yourself that involves more then you telling.


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## pronghorn

I would guess that the reason that Mathews and others do not send parts to the end consumer is the same reason that the furniture factory does not like to do it. Most parts require specialized equipment (Bow press) as well as knowledge of bow repair to PROPERLY install the parts. They would like for you to be happy long term with your purchase and feel that if the part is not properly installed, you will not be happy with it long term.

By the way, be careful who you call stupid. Ursonvs has been on here for quite a while and has contributed multiples of what you are likely to contribute. Just because he is from Kansas, does not make him stupid. Just some friendly advice.


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## SilentElk

Lordform, I think you have made a good point. I can understandwhy mathews has the policy that they do. However, they are a little extreme in the way they handled it too. Overall though, the local dealer is the one giving you the shaft. No pun intended... ok maybe a little. I would first and foremost be mad at the local dealer and secondly somewhat towards Mathews. Mathews should have something in place to keep resale prices somewhat even across the board. I know specific overhead varies from place to place but some level of consistancy must be in place.

Hope it works out.


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## terrym

I think all bow manufacturers are missing a great marketing oppurtunity here. Compare archery companies to rifle scope companies. The investment amounts are similar yet the scope companies have fantastic customer service and warranties. Who cares if the original owner sold his bow to his neighbor? All of a sudden that bow is radio active and no longer thier problem, B.S. ! Companies like Leupold honour the warranty for whoever owns the product and they do it forever. The result is near cult like devotion to the brand by most who own them even if in some cases there are cheaper equal quality options available. I think any company that studied Leupold and duplicated its customer service/warrany policies would dominate the market. Sadly I doubt these bow companies will do it since they are not that bright.


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## 3DHoytShooter

What wasn't clear in his first post?????? I just can't believe how some individuals on here just blindly attack anyone that speak out about there bow brand? Who cares if he bought the bow new, in my opinion ALL of the manufactures should stand behind there bow no matter if you are the original owner or not. That is what a lifetime warranty is suppose to mean. What does the owner have to do with a part failure on a bow? If they think that they make a quality product then stand behind it.


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## Lordform

pronghorn said:


> I would guess that the reason that Mathews and others do not send parts to the end consumer is the same reason that the furniture factory does not like to do it. Most parts require specialized equipment (Bow press) as well as knowledge of bow repair to PROPERLY install the parts. They would like for you to be happy long term with your purchase and feel that if the part is not properly installed, you will not be happy with it long term.
> 
> By the way, be careful who you call stupid. Ursonvs has been on here for quite a while and has contributed multiples of what you are likely to contribute. Just because he is from Kansas, does not make him stupid. Just some friendly advice.


I never called anyone stupid, only responded in kind to a reply that was completely irrelevent to my post. 

I have no problem with anyone here- not Ursonvs or Les...as far as I am concerned, anyone who shoots a bow gets prefferential treatment to begin with. However, I know that ALOT of people looking for new bows and for their reviews search these pages. I wanted to make sure there was something here where people could find a perspective that is not only infatuated with the speed Mathews bows provide. Customer service makes or breaks the deal after the sale. I am not impressed with Mathews customer service at all and it would appear that I am not the only one.

What is worse than anything is this: I told these people that I would have to get rid of my Mathews and get a different bow, probably a Hoyt (those things look very nice), and that I would also have to make my friend aware- who just bought a brand new Switchback, that he will face the same problems. Even further, I said that I would place this post making others aware of their horrible customer service and Shea, the customer service manager, told me to go ahead.

This is appauling and to be truthful, I don't know how they can keep afloat with this level of poor service.


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## Myk

> But I also know my LX will cost me parts AND labor if I send it in for a repair due to the fact it is a second-owner bow.


I know for a fact I can order limbs from a local and put them on my Martin myself. I also have a pretty good idea that if I wanted the shop to put them on they would not charge me labor since I bought the parts from their store.
Moral of the story, according to you, DO NOT BUY USED MATHEWS. 

There is no real reason to not allow parts to be sent to users not covered under warranty. It is an unfair business practice meant to protect the shops and screw the customers.


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## Daniel Boone

*Thats Mathews*

My dealer cant send me a cam and Im a staff shooter. I have to drive and pick it up.

I know the rules and choose Mathews. Everyone has choices and can decide for themselves. Who said life is fair:tongue:


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## 4snshine

*point?*



Lordform said:


> I think you may have missed my point bud.


no i got your point- your upset because you didn't get your way, so your on a personal mission to put mathews out of business; i think your word was pathetic. that's ok my 3 year old throws a fit when he dosn't get his way too! good luck to ya!


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## Les

Lordform was not completely clear in the original post about some important specifics.....was the price quote by his dealer for the part inclusive of labor for installation? Or was he going to install it himself, and that price quote was for the part only?
I'm not supporting price gouging at all! I'm not blindly supporting Mathews policies. It is America, and we are free to shop around for the best deal possible! At least that is what I do. I will not give hard earned money away, and neither should Lordform!

But a poor customer service experience, or overall negative attitudes from the manufacturer and it's representatives are not acceptable, and on that one issue I can understand Lordform's concerns. But there are two sides to every story, and just short of playing the recording of the phonecall for quality review we can not assume only his story is the true one regarding his experience with the manufacturer. 

I shot PSE when there was a problem with customer service. They have grown and worked that out over time. I think Mathews can do the same, if the right people at Mathews make themselves availible to owners like Lordform! But I think if Mathews makes their parts directly availible to everyone, there would be major changes made to their warranty program as well.


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## Chris C.

Excellent Customer Service is a DYING art...it also earns my dollar EVERY time. It is not Mathews. Certainly Mathews has pro shop friendly policies that drive customers to their dealers. However, the shop obviously is very similar to my local shop (notice I didn't use the pre fix "pro"...?) and they don't only sell Mathews. Paying retail is something I very seldom do. Two exceptions: to a good fly shop and to a good archery pro shop. Not all fly shops and certainly not all archery shops are PRO shops. The shops where I spend money have earned my business. However, I am not willing to pay ANY price for sub par service. Big box stores are consistant and often drive the "pro"/niche type businesses OUT of business. They offer mediocre service and sell name brand products for excellent prices. Personally, I am willing to pay a little more for exceptional service and support the local "pro shop". Unfortunately, you've experienced the norm. The significant majority of my sporting dollar is spent via e mail or telephone to a couple of outstanding shops where the proprieter earns every dollar I spend...with service.
Chris


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## Lordform

4snshine said:


> no i got your point- your upset because you didn't get your way, so your on a personal mission to put mathews out of business; i think your word was pathetic. that's ok my 3 year old throws a fit when he dosn't get his way too! good luck to ya!


It is obvious that you did NOT get my point. I have not been malicious in any way. If my agenda were as you say, then my focus would be concentrated more on deflaming Mathews product than the poor customer service which I received, or the dealer gouging freindly policy they currently have in place.

Throw your insults as you will, but your position has no validity, no merit and just doesn't make any sense- per my original post.


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## archerdad

since you're not happy with you lx and the dealers pricing and service, sell the bow buy a different brand and move on.
good luck to you


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## Midlife Crisis

Lordform,

Really, $20 in the grand scheme of life is not much. 

However, I, the self-proclaimed “cheapest man alive,” certainly don’t find fault with you for trying to save a buck or two, but ya gotta do some research into the game before you step up to the plate. Two years ago I was an uninformed PSE shooter. I hated that bow and that company. I bought my PSE bow based on the dealer’s recommendation, which was a Big mistake. So I tested several bows, read up on various issues – short ATA versus long, brace height, speed, etc. I studied the Switchback – all the tuning issues, new owner complaints, dealer practices, etc. for months before I stepped up to the plate and bought one. I didn’t want to make a mistake with a far costlier bow. Well, by traveling 200 miles from my home I was able to save $175 on the cost of a new bow (it just so happens I travel within 10 miles of the less expensive dealer’s place 2-3 times a year when I go to visit relatives). That dealer had nothing but good things to say about Mathews. He told me other bow manufacturers have hurt dealers with poor pricing policies – introducing new bows that are virtually the same as a higher-priced bow dealers are already carrying in stock (which then have to be marked down to cost or below to move them out), authorizing too many dealers in a geographic area to carry their line, etc.

I have had several questions for the good folks at Mathews. And they have answered my questions (before and after purchasing my bow) to my great satisfaction and when necessary, returned my calls promptly when I’ve had to leave messages. I don’t have any problems with their policies. They are trying to protect dealers from encroaching on one another’s business (a geographic territory can only support so many dealers and the dealers have to do enough business to make a decent profit). I do have some concerns about the local dealers who want to charge a lot more than dealers located elsewhere in the country (I think my local prices are inflated well above any cost of living differences). Their knowledge and service have been poor to date and they will get as little of my business as I can possibly give them. Mathews will continue to get my business for a long, long time.


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## Sagittarius

low12 said:


> Double loser here, I have got a Bowtech and a Mathews.


 

My favorite post. :thumbs_up  


Sag.


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## huntingeorgia

*Post this on Mathews Forum*

I think Lordform should post this thread in the General Archery Discussion on the Mathews Forum. I am sure Shea would respond to this claim. From all the post I have read from Shea and the other Mathews techs ( Bob & Art), those guys are very helpful and very supportive of the end user. 
I have always wondered how people can claim to know so much about tuning their bow and still need to go to a pro shop. I have a buddy who says the dealer does not know a thing, but still continues to use him. 
I know how Mathews pricing policy is, because that is one the first questions I asked when I toured the plant. I would do as a lot of other people have suggested. Shop around!
Sorry for your troubles, but the shop is to blame!


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## HV Bowman

*huntingeorgia*

If this post would have been put on the Mathews website it would have lasted about an hour if that.

I posted a thread on that site requesting a dealer to contact me regarding the purchase of a Cam for a Mathews Apex I own and the thread was pulled within a few hours. The Explanation I got was that buying and selling on the Mathews website isn't allowed. I was neither buying from that site nor was I selling. I was trying to locate a dealer. So if you have any idea that Mathews would allow a thread like the one here your mistaken.


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## Myk

> Who said life is fair


Who's talking about life being "unfair"? We're talking about business and the law.

_"While small businesses often fall victim to the unfair business practices of larger companies, they can be prosecuted for unfairly dominating markets localized in cities, towns, neighborhoods, or niche industries.

Conspiring to Allocate Markets or Customers: Agreements between competitors to divide up customers, territories, or markets are illegal. This provision applies even when the competitors do not dominate the particular market or industry.

Monopolization: Preserving a monopoly position through the acquisition of competitors, *the exclusion of competitors to the given market,* or the control of market prices are all in violation of antitrust laws."_
Sounds exactly what many of the archery manufacturers do to protect the "pro" shops. Mathews and others are in violation of The Sherman Act. Sherman Act violations are punished as criminal felonies.
If they're going to break the monopoly laws to protect the shops, they may as well break the price fixing law to protect their customer...except they don't care about their customer.

I am amazed that any consumer would support such practices under any circumstances. I suspect that most who do are "staff shooters", friends of the business owner who doesn't want to have to compete in a fair market or employees defending their paycheck rather than the practice.

Screw the fanboy support on this forum, Lordform, send a letter to the DOJ. Corporations can be fined up to $10,000,000 for violations. Who knows, they may actually do something about it.

Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice
601 D Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20530
(202) 514-3543

Federal Trade Commission
6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20580
(202) 326-2222
TDD (202) 326-2502


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## teambringit1

Chris C. said:


> Excellent Customer Service is a DYING art...it also earns my dollar EVERY time. It is not Mathews. Certainly Mathews has pro shop friendly policies that drive customers to their dealers. However, the shop obviously is very similar to my local shop (notice I didn't use the pre fix "pro"...?) and they don't only sell Mathews. Paying retail is something I very seldom do. Two exceptions: to a good fly shop and to a good archery pro shop. Not all fly shops and certainly not all archery shops are PRO shops. The shops where I spend money have earned my business. However, I am not willing to pay ANY price for sub par service. Big box stores are consistant and often drive the "pro"/niche type businesses OUT of business. They offer mediocre service and sell name brand products for excellent prices. Personally, I am willing to pay a little more for exceptional service and support the local "pro shop". Unfortunately, you've experienced the norm. The significant majority of my sporting dollar is spent via e mail or telephone to a couple of outstanding shops where the proprieter earns every dollar I spend...with service.
> Chris


Ditto Chris C. and a great perspective...My local "PRO" shop (which happens to be a Mathews dealer) does outstanding work and provides great customer service. This is why I drive 35 miles to let him help me. His service is the sole reason why I spend a few bucks extra rather than go somewhere closer and save a few bucks. I know he goes to great lengths to make customers happy, such as free labor on anything bought in the store...helping paper tune and chronograph for free...all things that add up quickly. :thumbs_up


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## Lordform

Myk said:


> Who's talking about life being "unfair"? We're talking about business and the law.
> 
> _"While small businesses often fall victim to the unfair business practices of larger companies, they can be prosecuted for unfairly dominating markets localized in cities, towns, neighborhoods, or niche industries.
> 
> Conspiring to Allocate Markets or Customers: Agreements between competitors to divide up customers, territories, or markets are illegal. This provision applies even when the competitors do not dominate the particular market or industry.
> 
> Monopolization: Preserving a monopoly position through the acquisition of competitors, *the exclusion of competitors to the given market,* or the control of market prices are all in violation of antitrust laws."_
> Sounds exactly what many of the archery manufacturers do to protect the "pro" shops. Mathews and others are in violation of The Sherman Act. Sherman Act violations are punished as criminal felonies.
> If they're going to break the monopoly laws to protect the shops, they may as well break the price fixing law to protect their customer...except they don't care about their customer.
> 
> I am amazed that any consumer would support such practices under any circumstances. I suspect that most who do are "staff shooters", friends of the business owner who doesn't want to have to compete in a fair market or employees defending their paycheck rather than the practice.
> 
> Screw the fanboy support on this forum, Lordform, send a letter to the DOJ. Corporations can be fined up to $10,000,000 for violations. Who knows, they may actually do something about it.
> 
> Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice
> 601 D Street, N.W.
> Washington, D.C. 20530
> (202) 514-3543
> 
> Federal Trade Commission
> 6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
> Washington, D.C. 20580
> (202) 326-2222
> TDD (202) 326-2502





WOW, MYK!! LOl, I think I will do just that!!

Thanks!


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## Crackers

Those that know me know I don’t bash. I like bows and enjoy working on them all and there is no way that one shop can carry every thing that’s available. I must say how ever that Mathews has been the most difficult for me to deal with as for customer service. I have called for cable and string specs and was very surprised when I was told no because I was not a dealer.

I had a customer come in during turkey season with a SB that he had cut the cable with a broad head and there wasn’t many strands left holding it together. Well for one reason or another spec sticker was missing on the limb and there was no info on their website. I called Mathews and told them the problem and I need the cable length, this is what happened: What’s the name of your shop? Where are you located? You’re not one of our dealers and here is the name of the dealer in your town. What they didn’t know was the customer was standing there and he got on the phone and he didn’t blow a fuse but did tell them before he hung up that he would never by a Mathews again. I asked what the cable length was and he said they would tell him either. I had to call a friend in PA and get the specs.


Like I said I don’t bash but I do know when I need help with a Mathews question I ask friends or a couple of the Pros I know


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## martin_SE_shoot

*Principle*

Its not about the money, it's the PRINCIPLE!!!


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## sagecreek




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## HV Bowman

*Originally posted by Crackers*


> Those that know me know I don’t bash. I like bows and enjoy working on them all and there is no way that one shop can carry every thing that’s available. I must say how ever that Mathews has been the most difficult for me to deal with as for customer service. I have called for cable and string specs and was very surprised when I was told no because I was not a dealer.
> 
> I had a customer come in during turkey season with a SB that he had cut the cable with a broad head and there wasn’t many strands left holding it together. Well for one reason or another spec sticker was missing on the limb and there was no info on their website. I called Mathews and told them the problem and I need the cable length, this is what happened: What’s the name of your shop? Where are you located? You’re not one of our dealers and here is the name of the dealer in your town. What they didn’t know was the customer was standing there and he got on the phone and he didn’t blow a fuse but did tell them before he hung up that he would never by a Mathews again. I asked what the cable length was and he said they would tell him either. I had to call a friend in PA and get the specs.
> 
> 
> Like I said I don’t bash but I do know when I need help with a Mathews question I ask friends or a couple of the Pros I know


I rest my case. Does anyone still think that Mathews Policies are fair to customers. If there was any doubt in my mind, there isn't anymore. Refusing to give out the simplest information to an owner is the height of arrogance. There is a control issue here that goes above and beyond anything any decent manufacturer should ever attempt to hold over a customers head. 
The more I hear the less respect I have for Mathews, They're dealers and the mind set of the both. 

Thank the bow Gods I decided to to go with another brand this year, and for every year from now on.


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## Les

Thinking out loud here, and looking for good discussion. I'm not looking to flame, and I am certainly not trying to lean on my limited buisness/law school education! But, I just can't understand the recent trend of manufacturer bashing.

A manufacturer, corporation, designer or anyone that holds patents registered on their designs and products can and do control the supply chain and availibility of that product. Many companies do not sell direct to the public. They use their supply chain, be it franchises, dealerships or distribution channels. Others can not legally manufacture/copy the same part or design until such time the patent has expired or the original designer allows such. Drug manufactures as an example have similiar practices in place on their products preventing generic reproduction by others.

Is this the "monopoly" you are referring to, Myk? So, now is it wrong for a manufacturer to set the price on their patented items at a level that allows them to make a profit, pay taxes, recover the sunk costs of R&D, marketing and legal support?

How is it a monopoly, when there are many other brands availible with the same or similiar products in the market? PSE, Bowtech, Hoyt, Merlin, etc........
Choice is there in the marketplace. And, you can go to whatever dealer you want to wherever they may be located.

I wonder if Mathews has some concerns that uninformed end users, or someone who made an honest mistake, might put incorrect parts on a bow to suffer unintended consequences? I have also wondered why Mathews does not require dealer product education, similiar to PSE's training school, so that all their dealers can offer a certain expected level of competence? 

Also, Mathews has made most of their information regarding specs availible on their website. And, they have a dealer locator on that same website. But I know everyone does not have 24/7 computer access, and there is no excuse for customer service to not be helpful whenever they are called!


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## juice540

It is very unfortunate that a company like that would not give out string lengths to thier own customers. I think that todays bow companys would be doing thierselves a huge favor if they would take care of the used marketplace better. As soon as i buy a used bow the waranty on that bow is gone. Thats fine with me but why can't i buy cheap unwarrentied parts to go with my used bow? I can understand that a company would not want to sell parts to thier cusstomers that still have a waranty on thier bow, the customer might screw thier bow up and claim a warranty against them for the customers mistake. Thats fine, but sell me some cheap binary cams or limbs with a non-warranty serial number. If they break or i get hurt, no loss to them, at least i dont have to search the black market and wait for parts to come along. I mean that works great and all, but it would be nice to just order me a nice shiny new part from a online retailer. Plus it would keep resale up which will inturn keep people buying new bows every year.


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## PMantle

Myk said:


> Who's talking about life being "unfair"? We're talking about business and the law.
> 
> _"While small businesses often fall victim to the unfair business practices of larger companies, they can be prosecuted for unfairly dominating markets localized in cities, towns, neighborhoods, or niche industries.
> 
> Conspiring to Allocate Markets or Customers: Agreements between competitors to divide up customers, territories, or markets are illegal. This provision applies even when the competitors do not dominate the particular market or industry.
> 
> Monopolization: Preserving a monopoly position through the acquisition of competitors, *the exclusion of competitors to the given market,* or the control of market prices are all in violation of antitrust laws."_
> Sounds exactly what many of the archery manufacturers do to protect the "pro" shops. Mathews and others are in violation of The Sherman Act. Sherman Act violations are punished as criminal felonies.
> If they're going to break the monopoly laws to protect the shops, they may as well break the price fixing law to protect their customer...except they don't care about their customer.
> 
> I am amazed that any consumer would support such practices under any circumstances. I suspect that most who do are "staff shooters", friends of the business owner who doesn't want to have to compete in a fair market or employees defending their paycheck rather than the practice.
> 
> Screw the fanboy support on this forum, Lordform, send a letter to the DOJ. Corporations can be fined up to $10,000,000 for violations. Who knows, they may actually do something about it.
> 
> Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice
> 601 D Street, N.W.
> Washington, D.C. 20530
> (202) 514-3543
> 
> Federal Trade Commission
> 6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
> Washington, D.C. 20580
> (202) 326-2222
> TDD (202) 326-2502


Nothing in your post has anything to do with Lordform's situation at all. Your quotes aren't on point. Where's the competitor Mathews conspired with, and what did they agree upon? What small business is suffering because of any of the bow OEMs? This isn't a Wal-Mart type situation. What competitor has any bow OEM aquired to become a monopoly? There's lots of choice in bows. Monopoly, the more I think about it the funnier it gets.


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## SeanH.

Mathews and I am sure other company's practice business this way because those of you that buy mathews let them practice it that way.....

Lord I personally think you should make the phone calls as mentioned in MYK's post, as minute as it might seem it just might be the eye opener that people are looking for....I have no dog in this fight but lord does have a valid point their cust. service sucks of course I also shoot a bowtech so I am just waiting for my limbs to blow up


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## bowhuntermac

*Dont you have a friend in Tampa??*

I have done business with a particular shop where I used to live for years now. Even though they cannot send me a Matthews bow in the mail, it is an easy fix. I send a friend the money, he walks in and buys the bow, proceeds to the UPS place, and 2-3 days later, it is in my hands. I bet if you looked, you can find a buddy in Tampa who would do the same for you.
Also, when talking about buying and selling used Matthews bows, the fix is simple. Dont register it. I am a loyal Matthews fan, but also a bow-a-holic and buy 1-2 bows every year, which in turn wind up being sold within a year or so. To avoid the "I cant get it fixed if I buy it from you" problem, I sell the bow with a shiny new warranty/registration card. Not breaking any laws if I do not register my own bow, and what the buyer does with it is his business.
In the last 3 years, I have bought and sold 5 Matthews bows and never bothered to warrant a single one, as I believe they put out a good product and have never had to try to get work done on ANY of them.
As for the protected territories, that is a pretty commonplace occurrence when getting a franchise or brand dealership. Some are based on population, some are based on geography. It may not seem fair to you, and you may think the dealer is just trying to screw you, BUT if he was doing such a good job screwing people, ask your slef when the last time you saw someone get rich from running a bow shop?
I thought so.


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## Les

Agreed Bowhuntermac, but Mathews now asks you what dealer you bought the bow from, and they check their records against the serial number to see if that is correct. I do not think the registration card means too much anymore, but you do have to tell them where it was bought new and the serial number. Not a hard thing to do to pass on that little bit of information to the next guy!

See, I have no affiliation with the company! No dog in the fight or other motivation!


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## Lordform

BUT if he was doing such a good job screwing people, ask your slef when the last time you saw someone get rich from running a bow shop?
I thought so.[/QUOTE]


I am in the purchasing business. It is second nature for me to check the prices somewhere else. I know a great deal about vendor and retailer relationships, price mark ups and in this case, price gouging.

This guy IS trying to get rich off of every little piece in his store. But I am not as diappointed with him as I am with Mathews. I made them aware of this price discrepancy and thy left me to go through it alone.

Look, I have always wanted a Mathews. I have one now. I love this bow. It killed two nice deer LAST WEEK- one great buck from the ground at 20 yds. It is just very disheartening for this to have happened.

ANY good business, no matter what their policy, after being made aware of this gouging situation would have bent the rules a bit. I never asked if they would send me the part directly; only that they allow the Tampa dealer to send it to me. that is all. That, in light of the circumstances, is a VERY minimal request. By their refusing to allow this happen, they are 100% endorsing this guy's gouging.

I am not interested in recommending this company to anyone...good bow or not.


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## Myk

> Is this the "monopoly" you are referring to, Myk? So, now is it wrong for a manufacturer to set the price on their patented items at a level that allows them to make a profit, pay taxes, recover the sunk costs of R&D, marketing and legal support?


I don't see where that is addressed here.
Is it a breech of anti-trust for a company to allocate markets to businesses so the business can price gouge? I don't know since there are other bow brands, it's probably not.
Is it a breech of anti-trust for that same company disallow their bows to be shipped to further protect the businesses? Coupled with the above you're starting to push it.
Is it a breech of anti-trust for that company to disallow parts that are not available as aftermarket parts to be shipped? That sounds like it is to me.

Where you fail on your drug comparison is generic drugs and drug manufacturers do not say that only one pharmacy in given area is allowed to sell their drug which ends up being a form of price fixing.

I don't know how it would turn out that's why I said to contact the Justice Department and let them decide. Even if it is a breech of anti-trust I doubt if they do anything because archery isn't that big.
If you think it's perfectly OK to say one shop in a given area to exclude competition and provide price gouging you have nothing to worry about.
If it's not OK then a lot of bow makers have about ten million things to worry about.

PMantle, I thought you were going to ignore me.
They are "Conspiring to Allocate Markets or Customers" with pro-shops, we've heard from enough pro-shops to know this blatantly goes on. They exclude competitors to a given market and they do that so competition between businesses won't drive the prices down.
We've had plenty of posts from pro-shops given raw deals from OEMs, ask them how they suffered.

Even if all of this is allowed it's still a raw deal for the business. If these companies want to have their fingers that deeply into the retail end they need to stop selling to pro-shops and open factory outlet stores.


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## juano2001

Holy shlitz if what Crackers said is true, and by reputation it must be, that is the lowest of low, not give out a cable length to help there own customer cause crack is not a dealer. Wow I had no idea they were this bad. Won't be any bows left for me to buy soon, bowtech - exploding limbs (just kidding bowtech guys):tongue: , Matthews - crapiest customer service ever. Think I am gonna sell the works and buy the new pearson stealth.

Good luck Lord


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## 1mitch4

I have to go with Lordform on this one. I talke to my dealer that I bought my bowtech from, and it was the same deal. Mathews sucks in my mind and all of there advertising is either a lie or just to down the other bow makers, and that is pretty sore business if you ask me. I shoot a bowtech, and the main reason is the fact that there is an american flag and IN GOD WE TRUST printed on the inside of the bottom limb. You tell me another bow maker that does that and stands behind there product like bowtech, and I will tell you that you are lucky to shoot a bow of such good quality. I have never liked mathews, and I WILL NOT OWN A MATHEWS BOW.....


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## Myk

> the main reason is the fact that there is an american flag and IN GOD WE TRUST printed on the inside of the bottom limb.


Beware the man who uses religion or patriotism to make his money.
That's an excellent thing to hide flaws behind.

Besides, why would I want someone else's religion advertised on my bow? I also bet people in other countries don't enjoy that flag, imagine have a Rising Sun flag on your TV.


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## waveone

jskd said:


> I can just hear the mathews shooters stampeding to this post:tongue:


Jskd,

As the 6th poster looks like you beat all of them to it


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## jimineecricket

There is 10 good things and 10 bad things about everyone and every buisness you deal with. So what it really comes down to is personal choice. Mathews business practices are well know in alot of forums. If you did not research the compant first then same one you and if you did then there should be no compliant on them. As for the dealer They have to eat too and you can drive anywhere you want. I for one am glad mathews has the polices as I know my dealer wont be RAN OUT BY WALMART!!:thumbs_up


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## deerhuntalotdee

*bad mathews*

i drove 100 miles to a mathews dealer ( the closest one) to get a bow . i picked the one i wanted, got all new things for it but the million dollar 2 piece quiver. i wanted everything to match that i could. they didn't have one in stock so i said just mail me one then. he said that he would not and could not do that because of mathews policys. i under stand the bow but assessiories. i will not drive 100 miles(one way) for a quiver . never bought the bow and wont deal with mathews any more be cause it. there are other bow companys like bowtech that have a 50 mile limit. if you don't have a dealer in 50 miles you may get you stuff shipped to you. thanks bowtech and others for caring something about your customers.


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## Indychris

:brick:

Wow, this is great. I think we need the government to step in and make their own allocations of archery territory. They can make sure that no bow manufacturer ever buys out another company; that could give them an upper hand in business. In fact, I'll bet legislation can be passed to require that all bow manufacturers build and supply replacement parts for all the other brands. That way, it would be guaranteed that anyone can have access to whatever they want at any shop nearby! They can make the all-important decisions as to who can sell bows where and for what price. 

AND, if they're really smart, maybe they can set up an entire agency with the efficiency of OSHA to oversee all aspects of archery sales to make sure that every shop conforms exactly to the thousands of specifications that they make for the industry. They can dictate exact draw weight specs, limit draw length to ONLY 25" so that parts are available to all, mandate that ALL cams come with draw-length adjustment, standardize that ALL bows must be offered with a cam-and-a-half system, and force Crackers to Crackerize ALL bows for $3 so as not to penalize anyone who might not be able to afford the regular price.

I think I remember hearing that Al Gore invented the bow (or was it that Tipper invented the stabilizer? :shocked: ), so maybe congress could institute a new "For every hand a bow" program funded with tax $$. Additionally, all this could be funded with the new Federal Archery Regulatory Tax (F.A.R.T.) comprised of a 25% fee to be paid by the manufacturer so that the consumer doesn't have to pay it . That way, EVERY consumer will always be happy with every transaction, and no business will ever do better than any other, right?

I mean, come on really!! What's with all this private business stuff anyway? Capitalism is way over rated! It's not like this is America or anything, where companies get to make the decisions that effect their own business. Let Uncle Sam run it all. Everything's always better then!:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## dougnordlund

*brand bashing*

Hi there group, I am new to this site, and I love it. I absolutely hate all the brand bashing that goes on in the general industry. I shoot a bowtech black knight with axis arrows wheb out doors, and arrow dynamics arrows indoors. I shoot with friends that have all brands of bows and as far as technology goes, hoyt, mathews, and bowtech are tops. As for customer service, bow tech is tops in my opinion. they have warrantied the limbs on my bow this year, and my local shop gave me a huge deal on my new winners choice strings when the factory ones broke. I can say from personal experience that my bow is very difficult to shoot indoors. I shoot solid 285 vegas rounds(I have only been shooting this format for about six weeks). I know that if I decide to do this all the time I will need a different bow(one with a brace height of more than 5.75 inches). For 3d shoots my bow rules.


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## AKDoug

All this over a lousy 20 bucks. Tell you what. I'll send you the twenty bucks and you can run down to your local Matt dealer and pick one up at no loss to you.


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## SilentElk

I was curious, I know one dealer is $20 higher than another. But how much is the part? Are we talking a difference between $10 and $30 in prices or $170 and $200? 

Interesting thought, after all this conversation and such, I wonder how many man hours people have dumped typing and researching and etc. I bet the man hour has to be under $2/hr and going to fall lower.

Not downing the situation and I know this has nothing to do with your greivence. I just am curious.


----------



## Old Goat

Lordform said:


> Fellow archers,
> 
> 
> 
> I called Mathews and spoke to Jeff as well as his supervisor Shea. They adamantly refused to bend in policy to allow me to save the $20.00. Upon my mention that I would have to sell my bow due to parts being so hard to obtain, they were both completely apathetic and acted as though Mathews, for the most part, does not need my business.
> 
> 
> 
> This is pathetic.


Shay is one of the most down to earth most helpful people at Mathews who will always go out of his way to help someone.
With an attitude like yours I can only imagine what you said to him but it's obvious by your post that you have a total lack of communication skills what so ever.
This forum is filled with great people and information, sorry to say you give it a bad name.:thumbs_do


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## Myk

> This forum is filled with great people and information, sorry to say you give it a bad name


Those types of posts generally don't mean much when the person who makes them is making their first post.


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## Darton Titan 2

You know it is hard to find a Bow company that hasn't become arrogant with it's business practices. I could name a couple of companies that have not become arrogant but I'm sure their would be a "flamer" on the board ready to criticize. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong in posting your experience...


----------



## puddles

Myk said:


> Those types of posts generally don't mean much when the person who makes them is making their first post.


That is about as mean spirited as one can be. You are saying that because a person hasnt been around here long they are automatically liars.
Your agenda is more obvious than most. This turkey whining about the price of a part is the one that is really out of order. If you dont like the price dont buy the product but to come on here and bad mouth any company to this extent over something so petty is just plain wrong....Grow up.


----------



## Doc Holliday

puddles said:


> That is about as mean spirited as one can be. You are saying that because a person hasnt been around here long they are automatically liars.
> Your agenda is more obvious than most. This turkey whining about the price of a part is the one that is really out of order. If you dont like the price dont buy the product but to come on here and bad mouth any company to this extent over something so petty is just plain wrong....Grow up.



No. He said that because that poster is more than likely a sock puppet.

There are a lot of those on here. Furthermore, it's attitudes like yours that keeps these borderline criminal practices in place. :thumbs_do


----------



## Myk

> That is about as mean spirited as one can be. You are saying that because a person hasnt been around here long they are automatically liars.


Sorry but someone who just registered doesn't really know what the forum is filled with or who is and isn't "great people". Doc is right, it's most likely a sock puppet.
People don't sign up to a forum to make a post like that and go away without asking a question or offering someone some help.

Tell me exactly what you think my agenda is. 
I know what it is, as someone who has been in a retail based career I have had to deal with practices much like the ones some of the bow makers use. 
I also know for a fact that this type of practice results in screwing over not only the new business but the consumer. And I know that this exact type of practice is used to keep competition from happening and prices fixed.

I'm a libertarian and could get behind Indychris' sarcastic post, but we have laws and these practices are not following them. If you don't like it change the laws don't break them.

I don't see the bad mouthing you're so thin skinned about. I'm not singling out any one manufacturer.


----------



## Supershark

*Just A Question???*



ursonvs said:


> what is wrong with your cable roller that wouldn't put it under warranty?
> 
> next time...take this advice.
> 
> do a search for griv's post on posting etiquette. you might learn a few things from it cause trust me buddy, you just opened a big ole can-o-worms.
> 
> now on with the rest of the 89 posts and 1200 views this things is gonna get cause of you typing before thinking, good job.


I shoot Hoyt obviously, but I do not knock any bow company. Nor, do I think it would be correct to stop anyone from speaking there business, "posting etiquette" or not.
I got my butt chomped on pretty good on hear because I would not mention shop names in my area when I had problems with someone working on my Supertec. That was just my choice along with my "god(and Vetran)-given-rights". "Posting etiquette" or not, why should he not be able to post this happening up and let people know his demise?


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Over $20.00*

I would have paid that in a heartbeat and had my bow shooting.

I agree with you Doug


----------



## MNbuck

**

Do you order car or truck parts directly from Ford or GM? 

PM me your address, I will send you a 20 dollar bill.


----------



## Treestalker

Bottom line on this drawn out topic is your crying about a dealer gouging you for 20.00 and Mathews not bending the rules of policy for you who has a second hand bow.If you have the gumption to come on this site and bad mouth a company why don't you go in to the SHOP who's jacking the price and cause some stink there.If the shop that is closest to you gave you what you wanted you would'nt be here downing mathews would you?Just like a spoiled little kid........And no I don't work for mathews........Your orginal thread title should have read " Do not buy a second hand mathews bow "


----------



## Myk

MNbuck said:


> Do you order car or truck parts directly from Ford or GM?
> 
> PM me your address, I will send you a 20 dollar bill.


Does Ford or GM set up one auto parts place in an area to carry their parts? No they do not.
And I'm pretty sure I recall a local issue where a car maker was setting up dealerships by area to limit competition and they were busted for it.


----------



## Alan in GA

*would you now buy "anything" from that local archery store?*

seems like the dealer with the high prices would be just as unbearable for YOU to buy from for ANYTHING OR ANYBRAND if he's that higher priced.
Chill out, go hunting, and don't make "I AIN'T EVER GONNA" decisions so quickly. Your advise for all of us to never buy MATHEWS again is weak. If you wanted to make that point,,just reveal your situation,,and we'll decide for ourselves [if I may speak for others here].
I'd buy a Mathews OUTBACK today if I had the $$. Then it would fit in my SKB Freedom [new] case,,but I don't know if I'd put my Switchback in there, too.
I think you'll be fine after you cool down and rethink the situation. Lots of gun and archery shops are HIGH priced on many items. They are trying to SURVIVE. Too many of us are too cheap to pay $20 more for something.

PSE Mach 12 65#,,,and, a-
Mathews Switchback 65#
...loving it.

Alan in GA


----------



## RecordKeeper

If anyone thinks that an archery retailer is going to get rich by a $20 markup on a product, you are seriously mistaken. The vast majority struggle to stay open at all...and this is the thanks we get.


----------



## Doc Holliday

MNbuck said:


> Do you order car or truck parts directly from Ford or GM?


Just where in the original post did he ever mention trying to buy the part from Mathews?


----------



## randallt3

Daniel Boone said:


> I would have paid that in a heartbeat and had my bow shooting.
> 
> I agree with you Doug



And I agree too. All this over $20.00. Gouging it ain't, market pricing it is.

Forget the fact that there are 4 other dealers closer to Miama than Tampa, two just north of there. What's their cost for the same part?

Forget the fact that the Miami dealer, as well as the overwhelming majority of Mathews dealers, are first and foremost independent businesses and set their pricing in order to keep their doors open and probably carries Hoyt, Alpine and/or others.

Forget that the dealer in Miami may have higher operating costs due to his location.

Forget the fact that these are the established rules. We can either accept them, aviod them or change them.

Lordform, your chose not to accept the rules and made the effort to change them. I applaud you for the effort, I don't know many people that would have gone to the extra effort as you did. Now you seem to want to avoid them by purchasing the part elsewhere. That's good too. After all, it's the same thing we all do when purchasing major applicances, vehicles, even milk - try to find and get the best deal.

Hope you find what you need for a price you can accept. It is too bad that
the part cannot be mailed to you, but they have their rules in place for a reason, good or bad.

As far as steering people away from Mathews due to this issue, you might have influence on one or two. But I, and the majority or archers I'd think, purchase bows based personal preference. And, yes, sometimes business policies.

Good luck.


----------



## Myk

My favorite gun shop has matched prices from Gander Mountain.
You either sink or swim, that is free market. Protectionism is not.


----------



## Deezlin

One eye said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences and possibly saving others the grief. Contrary to the "group hug" crowd here, I do not find your post out of line. You shared your experiences with a company and let others decide how they want to interpret them.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Dan


Well, I won't buy another Mathews unless they become less draw specific. You might check on AT and see if you can't find a cable guard here. 

But, Mathews is not the only ones with this attitude. If you really want attitude talk to Hoyt. You can't even get parts for bows if they are very old. You have a life warranty, but the parts no longer exist. What is your warranty worth?

I am not saying the manufacturers should not support their dealers, but they do request a certain selling price for their bows. I guess, the dealer can sell them for what ever above that price they can get away with. But, I think all manufacturers should have a maximum price for not only the bows, but the parts. Otherwise, the dealers may actually decrease the sales of bows in their area.

I have never had any problems with BowTech dealers or Martin dealers. But, I do not live close to any. I have had them mail parts to me and have been very happy with the cost and their willingness to help me out.

I needed a set of wider axles for one Martin bow. I called up a dealer about 2 hours drive away. He said he had them and would ship them out, he didn't know the price, but would just send them and a bill with. They were $14.83 shipped with tax.

Now, I haven't never met this dealer, but if I want a new Martin bow, I think I will buy from him. There is not reason a dealer can not ship you a part, if he wants to. I mean Mathews doesn't have a postmaster general checking the packages and I am not going to complain.


----------



## spoco57

One thing's for sure, if I ever need a lot of people to view my post in a hurry, I'm going to title it "Mathews Stinks" or something like that, even though it will have nothing to do with the question I'm asking. I suppose I could be egalatarian and just use an "insert bow company here Stinks" macro.


----------



## Rugby

[


> I must say how ever that Mathews has been the most difficult for me to deal with as for customer service. I have called for cable and string specs and was very surprised when I was told no because I was not a dealer.


by Crackers

I don't get the string thing. 

If a company has put a sticker on a bow that anyone can read, that has the string specs on it, how is that dealer only information when the sticker falls off? Why not tell Crackers the string specs?


----------



## RecordKeeper

Rugby said:


> [by Crackers
> 
> I don't get the string thing.
> 
> If a company has put a sticker on a bow that anyone can read, that has the string specs on it, how is that dealer only information when the sticker falls off? Why not tell Crackers the string specs?


I have never had any company refuse to disclose specs, whether I am a dealer for them or not. Has Mathews changed their policy on this matter? The information is certainly available on their website and in every owner's manual.


----------



## Myk

> The information is certainly available on their website and in every owner's manual.


Then why is it when I go to their website and look up all the new bows I see, "String/Cable Length - New Zebra Barracuda String"?
Do those strings only come one length and all their bows use the same length string?


----------



## RecordKeeper

Myk said:


> Then why is it when I go to their website and look up all the new bows I see, "String/Cable Length - New Zebra Barracuda String"?
> Do those strings only come one length and all their bows use the same length string?


Go to the website and pull up the .pdf format owner's manual....they are listed by year and contain all string and cable specs.

http://mathewsinc.com/v2/home/info/...oFileCategoryID=1964&cboFileCategoryIDMain=-1


----------



## Alan in GA

*this will fix everything!!!....*

let's all sing together:

"When you're HAPPY and you know it--clap your HANDS!
When you're happy and you KNOW IT--clap your HANDS.
When you're happy and you know it,then your life will surely show it-
when you're happy and you know it,,,clap your hands!!"

Sorry,,,couldn't resist it. 
Alan in GA.

"Sw------ack"
PSE Mach 12
and some old long bow I still have.


----------



## Myk

Recordkeeper said:


> Go to the website and pull up the .pdf format owner's manual....they are listed by year and contain all string and cable specs.


I'm not seeing it in the '05 manual. Maybe they did change policy.


----------



## Vorian

*Mathews blame?*

Man, have you put your neck upon the chopping block!
did it ever occur to you to have Mathews handle this themselves?
Instead of dragging a good brand name and reputation through the mud, you should drag your own sorry ass through it on your way to the guy who is trying to set you up.


----------



## stringshoota

*mathews*

Every archer has the right to select a bow by price or design.You spent some big bucks to get the mathews.Why are you fussing ove a $20.00 fee.


----------



## Lordform

Alan in GA said:


> seems like the dealer with the high prices would be just as unbearable for YOU to buy from for ANYTHING OR ANYBRAND if he's that higher priced.
> Chill out, go hunting, and don't make "I AIN'T EVER GONNA" decisions so quickly. Your advise for all of us to never buy MATHEWS again is weak. If you wanted to make that point,,just reveal your situation,,and we'll decide for ourselves [if I may speak for others here].
> I'd buy a Mathews OUTBACK today if I had the $$. Then it would fit in my SKB Freedom [new] case,,but I don't know if I'd put my Switchback in there, too.
> I think you'll be fine after you cool down and rethink the situation. Lots of gun and archery shops are HIGH priced on many items. They are trying to SURVIVE. Too many of us are too cheap to pay $20 more for something.
> 
> PSE Mach 12 65#,,,and, a-
> Mathews Switchback 65#
> ...loving it.
> 
> Alan in GA


Why do so many people miss the issue? $20 more than the guy in Tampa is bad, yes. I won't buy a pack of worm sinkers from this guys place solely on principle......again, I am in the purchasing business and know exsactly how it all works.

However my post is about the poor customer service Mathews has and the policies it has in place for local dealers to gouge because THEY know that we as consumers are not protected from their gouging unless we want to drive hundreds of miles and eat up the price difference in gas. This is exploitation in its raest form.

This is why I am disappointed and for such unethical business practices there is no "cooling off" period for me.


----------



## Slippy Field

*Yeah baby............*

yeah.......I knew this post was going to be entertaining :tongue: 

Just remember, people are entitled to their opinion even if that includes "bashing" another product that some people are fond of.

I guess this takes the heat of the Bowtech guys for a while.

Keep it rock'n folks!


----------



## Lordform

*I give up*



Vorian said:


> Man, have you put your neck upon the chopping block!
> did it ever occur to you to have Mathews handle this themselves?
> Instead of dragging a good brand name and reputation through the mud, you should drag your own sorry ass through it on your way to the guy who is trying to set you up.



OK...I give up on trying to explain what is and is not the case here.

Vorian, for you and those like you it is obvious I will have to write this in crayon so you will understand.


----------



## stringshoota

*pricing*

Lordform
Welcome to the USA were we enjoy a free enterprize system that allows this.Some shop at wally world others choose to buy products from higher buck places.


----------



## Slippy Field

Lordform said:


> OK...I give up on trying to explain what is and is not the case here.
> 
> Vorian, for you and those like you it is obvious I will have to write this in crayon so you will understand.


Thats what I call putting someone in their place! WEW!


----------



## the GREY GHOST

Is that a part under waranty or is it a sitiuation where waranty will not cover your mistake and you may be on the venting side?
Customers parts are dealer cost at our Mathews Shops.
Maybe the Shop owner is the key here.


----------



## Old Goat

Myk said:


> Those types of posts generally don't mean much when the person who makes them is making their first post.


Since when do you have to be a member to be able to read an glean useful information from a forum.
So what you're saying is I need 7000 plus posts in order to state an opinion?
If you follow a forum long enough you can see who the troublemakers and know it alls are.
Seems I have just drawn out one by stating my opinion


----------



## upnorth

its not only mathews i was a the first parker dealer in the area. i sold them for about 4 years . i was only selling a few bows for them after i picked up a new line. had a customer bring back a parker that i sold him a few years ago that had two cracked limbs. parker dropped me and told me i couldnt get the parts to fix the bow that i sold . said they had to take it to another dealer or ship it back to them.
you think they would let me service the bows that i sold . the customer had to take the bow another 50 miles to get it fixed.


----------



## Lordform

Treestalker said:


> Bottom line on this drawn out topic is your crying about a dealer gouging you for 20.00 and Mathews not bending the rules of policy for you who has a second hand bow.If you have the gumption to come on this site and bad mouth a company why don't you go in to the SHOP who's jacking the price and cause some stink there.If the shop that is closest to you gave you what you wanted you would'nt be here downing mathews would you?Just like a spoiled little kid........And no I don't work for mathews........Your orginal thread title should have read " Do not buy a second hand mathews bow "


Unbelievable.

Why does it matter if the bow is second hand or 50th hand? I got it from my best friend who never used it and talked me into buying it from him instead of buying a brand new one- which I was about to do.

When things need parts, we need to get them. We need the manufacturer to make the parts accessible. Instead, they limit where and from whom we can ge them, while protecting the local dealers that mark them up. And when we run into this problem, we need the manufcturer to understand the problem and work around policy in order to keep happy customers. This, pal, is customer service and this is what makes or breaks the deal. 

For the 1,000th time, this is why I created this post.

I don;t mind personal attacks on my agenda or my personality or even my intelligence, but before doing so, PLEASE READ AND COMPREHEND THE POST!!!


----------



## Lordform

Treestalker said:


> Bottom line on this drawn out topic is your crying about a dealer gouging you for 20.00 and Mathews not bending the rules of policy for you who has a second hand bow.If you have the gumption to come on this site and bad mouth a company why don't you go in to the SHOP who's jacking the price and cause some stink there.If the shop that is closest to you gave you what you wanted you would'nt be here downing mathews would you?Just like a spoiled little kid........And no I don't work for mathews........Your orginal thread title should have read " Do not buy a second hand mathews bow "


Unbelievable.

Why does it matter if the bow is second hand or 50th hand? I got it from my best friend who never used it and talked me into buying it from him instead of buying a brand new one- which I was about to do.

When things need parts, we need to get them. We need the manufacturer to make the parts accessible. Instead, they limit where and from whom we can ge them, while protecting the local dealers that mark them up while prohibiting competing dealers (in the case a dealer with a reasonable price) from sending the parts out. And when we run into this problem, we need the manufcturer to understand the problem and work around policy in order to keep happy customers. This, pal, is customer service and this is what makes or breaks the deal. 

For the 1,000th time, this is why I created this post.

I don;t mind personal attacks on my agenda or my personality or even my intelligence, but before doing so, PLEASE READ AND COMPREHEND THE POST!!!


----------



## Vorian

*Crayon?*

You don't have to write anything in crayon!
It's obvious, you're too cheap of a guy to spend $20 extra on a part which you claim at Mathews is hard to obtain.
And you're not willing to go to the other shop to obtain the part $20 cheaper.

Then you expect Mathews to bend their policy just for you being Dutch.
Only thing that has to be written in crayon is "el cheapo" on your forehead sap!


----------



## Buckster2000

Look I'm gonna name a few bow companies that ahve the same policy as Mathews. I know this becasue I personally called them to see if I could get items form them and I was not a dealer for them at the time.

HOYT......need to get a cam module....just a mod...nope can't sell it to ya

Martin.....same thing....customer of the bow even called and was told nope

Bowtech....draw module....nope they need to go to the dealer. I told the cusotmer on this one to call Bowtech and explain why he wouldn't go to his dealer. They did send him one out.

PSE.....Parts fro a crossbow they sold through Wal-mart. You need to contact a PSE dealer. WTH....you sold it through Wal-Mart

Parker.....in the early years...called to get a part form them and nope you need to become a dealer or go to a dealer.

So as you can see Mathews isn't the only one that has this policy.

Hey have you tried to buy actual fFord parts...Ford won't sell them to me direct.

I say never ever buy from any large corporation ever...Get out and buy all the tools to machine out all the neccesary parts you'll ever need to make everything you'll ever use. Of course you'll have to wait to not buy anything for corporation till after you buy the machinery to make everything you'll ever need. But as soon as you buy it.....then you can stop buying from corporation


----------



## Lordform

Vorian said:


> You don't have to write anything in crayon!
> It's obvious, you're too cheap of a guy to spend $20 extra on a part which you claim at Mathews is hard to obtain.
> And you're not willing to go to the other shop to obtain the part $20 cheaper.
> 
> Then you expect Mathews to bend their policy just for you being Dutch.
> Only thing that has to be written in crayon is "el cheapo" on your forehead sap!



You're right. I should have el cheapo on my forehead in crayon. While I am having that applied, I will also have a map of the state of FL drawn so you can see the 5 hour drive from Miami to Tampa......which was stated in my original post.

I think you are right though crayon would not be appropriate.......we would instead need a time machine to take you back to the 2nd-4th grades where basic reading comprehension was taught. Maybe you would focus on the points of an argument instead of one word, which by the way while you are calling me "Dutch", YOU my friend are the one focusing solely on the $20.

Why not keep the thread impersonal and either contribute a like thought or a contrary one. You are not doing well in the personal attacks area.


----------



## Myk

> Welcome to the USA were we enjoy a free enterprize system that allows this.


Actually it doesn't. At least to my thinking with all their practices put together would violate anti-trust laws.
If you don't like it change the laws.

Sorry, Old Goat. I find it hard to believe that this is the type of thread it takes to pull someone out of lurking. I also find it hard to believe that anyone who has lurked anywhere long enough to know who's who without ever talking with anyone wouldn't know that making a first post to claim who is naughty or nice is taken with anything but a grain of salt.



> Martin.....same thing....customer of the bow even called and was told nope


That's odd. When I broke a limb not under warranty I asked if I could get them direct and was given a price and told it would be cheaper to get them locally.
Even if it's warranty work I think you can ship it to them judging by some of the posts on this forum and my experience with Martin's warranty work.

But you fail to comprehend what has been said. Nobody is asking for parts direct from the manufacturer.


----------



## bowtech dually

*c'mon Les*

Almost 12 years ago at the height of High Country's fame when Burly and Randy were winning everything in sight I purchased a High Country Ultra Extreme (Eure) recurve limbs and full Colorworks option with some price shopping I ended up paying a whopping $850 in 1994. Even after shelling out this kind of dough I was greated by what should go down in history as the worst customer service. Les please stop trying to skate around the issue and accept the fact that Mathew's plain and simple has lousy customer service. Denying Crackers that information was WRONG, not protecting Lordform from price gouging was WRONG and Im sure the list goes on and on. Call Bowtech, Hoyt, Darton, Martin and ask for tech info such as string lenght and instead of a hard time, you will get a helpful answer. You can do it Les. Just say it.
BD


----------



## DDaily

"It also appears that Mathews has a policy that prevents its customers from getting parts sent, but does not have a policy to keep its dealers from exploiting the local customer"QUOTE


First of all I would not shoot a Mathews if it had a Cam&1/2 and it shot like a bowtec. I do agree with there policies. And they have them for a reason. You do not want to spend the $20 DON'T BUY IT!!!! You as the customer have that option. I work in retail and can not stand to hear "That cost to much" " I can get that cheaper down the street or in the next town" WELL let me get you a map and show you how to get there. Sorry just venting. But your problem is with the shop charging you to much. Mathews did not tell that guy to charge $20 more because you live to far from any other shops. He made up his own prices And you have the choice to buy it or not to buy it.


----------



## arkansasbowman

*The thread title is ridiculous, but the subject matter has principle to it. IMO*

I believe you are correct in saying the shop somewhat has you by the balls as they say. But it is the shop and not Mathew's, so your title to the thread is mis-directed completely. Your issue is with the shop, charging what you feel is elevated because they know the next shop is miles away.

I do support that Mathew's should be very concerned with who and how shop's handle their bow's and customer's. What is true from this, is that you will think twice now about buying a Mathew's because you will have to drive extra miles to do so with a trust worthy dealer. So it is the shop's fault, but Mathew's will possibly loose a customer.

I have for the same sort of principle posted on the Mathew's website that the field rep's should keep an eye on the shop's selling the Mathew's line(or someone). There are shop's that beg for top bow companies to allow them to sell, but because there is an established shop in the nearby area they are not allowed. All the big bow companies handle this about the same way. Only so many dealers within a certain region as not to be to close to one another.

My issue was I wanted my SB set to specs and was very cut and clear to my Mathew's dealer to do so. I got my bow back and it was like they did not take the time to do so. ATA s/b 33" and it was 33 3/16". So I was disappointed enough that I took it to the only other shop in town that of course does not deal Mathew's. They got it perfect, dead on 33" and yes I paid them $27.00 extra dollars to do so. But guess what, the expeirence has left a very sour taste. My next closest dealer is about 40 miles away. The shop that got my bow right carries Hoyt and possible getting Bowtech. So in the next year or two when I do buy the next bow, I will start with them(not to mentioned everything else I will be purchasing). I think of the top bow companies one can find one that fits them great and satisfies the perfectly. So bottom line I do not blame Mathew's one bit. I hold the shop responsible, but Mathew's may loose another customer. That is why I say in some form or fashion the field rep's better pay attention. There is way to many quality bow companies out there to have a shop loosing business for them.


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## stringshoota

*wow*

135 replies! this thread must be the best soap opera on this forum!I will have to go back to start and read the thing before I make any more comments.


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## Bowdoc

*Roller*

I fully understand the problems that are occuring here, we have a proud Mathews owner that is very confused. He saved a few $'s and helped out his friend by buying his bow used. He seems digruntled at his local dealer because he does not want to spend a few of the $'s he saved to bring the equipment up to specs either by buying it at the local shop or by traveling to the other shop. So he calls the manufacturer and asks if he can buy it direct and they tell him he is not a dealer so he cannot buy from them direct, again he's trying to save the $'s, not understanding that the manufacturer if they did sell direct and they don't would have to charge you suggested retail plus shipping and handling and insurance to save you a grand total of approx. $5.00. But instead he has wasted much time and energy on phone calls and bashing a bow company that has polcies in place to maintain their and their dealers existance in the archery market place. Suck it up, spend some of that hard earned money and set the bow up and shoot it. You probably spent more than that on other bad habits and didn't blink an eye (beer, cigarettes, fast food, chew, etc.)


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## Les

BD, I can not say that Mathews has poor customer service because I have never had such an experience with them. I am not saying anyone who states they have experienced such is lying, but there are two sides to every story. I have NEVER heard of an original purchaser having any difficulty with warranty work.

A manufacturer of a patented item can tell their supply chain what to charge as a suggested retail price. The seller can and does what they want. How does that fall back on the manufacturer? I try to have a good relationship with my pro shop so that I can get support when I need it. If that support means asking him to order a part he does not have in stock, pay you next Friday, etc.... I get that because I have been there all along to support the shop owner. I would not bust a gut over $20.00! Commercial business liability insurance premiums alone are hard enough for him to meet! Profit? Ha! He is barely making it!


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## Old Goat

Myk said:


> Sorry, Old Goat. I find it hard to believe that this is the type of thread it takes to pull someone out of lurking. I also find it hard to believe that anyone who has lurked anywhere long enough to know who's who without ever talking with anyone wouldn't know that making a first post to claim who is naughty or nice is taken with anything but a grain of salt.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> I can plainly see that you find everything hard to believe.
> You say "lurking" I say learning.
> I came out of "lurking" Because of this ridiculous thread and some of the closed minded people that are taking part in it.
> One "grain of salt" sure seems to irritate your closed elitist mind.
> OK, I'll crawl back in my hole.


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## Rooster Cogburn

Lordform;

There is nothing wrong with your current roller guard? You are complaining of pricing / customer service on a upgraded double damper roller guard? If you don't want to spend the extra $20 on an upgrade I dont see how it is a customer service problem to begin with. Go shoot your bow and keep the $20 in your pocket.


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## MNbuck

Lordform said:


> Unbelievable.
> 
> Why does it matter if the bow is second hand or 50th hand? I got it from my best friend who never used it and talked me into buying it from him instead of buying a brand new one- which I was about to do.
> 
> When things need parts, we need to get them. We need the manufacturer to make the parts accessible. Instead, they limit where and from whom we can ge them, while protecting the local dealers that mark them up while prohibiting competing dealers (in the case a dealer with a reasonable price) from sending the parts out. And when we run into this problem, we need the manufcturer to understand the problem and work around policy in order to keep happy customers. This, pal, is customer service and this is what makes or breaks the deal.
> 
> For the 1,000th time, this is why I created this post.
> 
> I don;t mind personal attacks on my agenda or my personality or even my intelligence, but before doing so, PLEASE READ AND COMPREHEND THE POST!!!


Lordform stated on the Mathews forum that the part he NEEDED was the new double dampener roller guard, he just wanted to upgrade his present one. This amounts to the same thing as trying to have an out of area dealer with lower prices send you a bow in the mail.

Like it or not these rules are in place to help dealers stay in business.

Shay is a standup guy.


----------



## Lordform

Bowdoc said:


> I fully understand the problems that are occuring here, we have a proud Mathews owner that is very confused. He saved a few $'s and helped out his friend by buying his bow used. He seems digruntled at his local dealer because he does not want to spend a few of the $'s he saved to bring the equipment up to specs either by buying it at the local shop or by traveling to the other shop. So he calls the manufacturer and asks if he can buy it direct and they tell him he is not a dealer so he cannot buy from them direct, again he's trying to save the $'s, not understanding that the manufacturer if they did sell direct and they don't would have to charge you suggested retail plus shipping and handling and insurance to save you a grand total of approx. $5.00. But instead he has wasted much time and energy on phone calls and bashing a bow company that has polcies in place to maintain their and their dealers existance in the archery market place. Suck it up, spend some of that hard earned money and set the bow up and shoot it. You probably spent more than that on other bad habits and didn't blink an eye (beer, cigarettes, fast food, chew, etc.)


You, in fact, do NOT understand the problem here, as per your post. PLease reread my probelm and comment as this reply is completely off base.


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## Guest

Matthews makes a good bow.. no doubt... one of the best shooting bows that I have ever owned... only problem that I have ever had was with the two little black "do-hickles" that are located on the top axle ( idler wheel) and used to hold the "split" of the power cables.. 

I had several to collapse,, string cut through them... my dealer gladly replaced them at first, then began charging me 10 dollars for a set ( yes I bought the bow from the dealer) I contacted mathews by e-mail and they claim that it was my strings fault... not theres... I then decided to call the plant directley.. that is when I informed them that I was using tiger twist strings/cables.... and that I was being charged to replace them.. I requested to have a set of those black plastic collars sent to me... their resoponse.. no way..... The following year at Bedford Indiania,, I showed the problem to the matthews rep at their booth... they claim that has never been a problem before....

I deciced to use collars from other manufactors that where made form alluminum or brass,, and that solved the problem... Kinda funny too.. why have a bow cost as much as they do and put those cheep plastic collars on there to beging with...


----------



## sagecreek

What is wrong with your roller guard?


----------



## Q2DEATH

Policy, This is b.s. Personally, I see nothing wrong with this guy wanting to buy a part at a cheaper price and have it sent to him. Mathews policy states this would be against the dealer regs that Mathews has implemented.

But here is what sucks, Mathews refuses to bend on this policy for a relatively inexpensive part. A buddy of mine opened a shop called All About Archery in New Mexico, was told by Mathews that Mathews would not allow two competeing shops to sell Mathews bows unless they were at least 50 miles apart. The other shop in town, which is about 10 miles from the first shop, pressed Mathews on this issue and Mathews caved in. I don't blame this company for doing that, Mathews sells and who wouldn't want the business. But obviously Mathews is not above reconsidering "policy". If you do it for one, it should be done for all.


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## MNbuck

sagecreek said:


> What is wrong with your roller guard?


Nothing, he just wanted the new double dampener one.


----------



## sagecreek

The double dampener guard is designed for the Switchback, and not the LX. You are not supposed to swap them.

Maybe that is why they want you to go through a dealer so you don't kill your fool self.


----------



## Buckster2000

Sage you can change them if you want. Not a big deal. I've got one for my LX but haven't had a chance to install it. BTW Mathews has no problem with you chnge it out...

Now I have a question

I may have missed the answer.

But did you ask the Mathews dealer if you could buy it for less casue you found a shop that would sell it cheaper? or was the price given to you installed price?


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## bry2476

4snshine said:


> but i have had several dealings with mathews customer service over warranty issues, and i was very pleased with thier responce. i've always shot mathews and always will- even though you had a bad experience- you need to relize your problem is with your dealer not mathews! all dealers get bows/parts for the same price and have to follow the same policies, if they chose to price gouge, find a better dealer don't bash mathews for setting company policy, commend them for sticking to it. what your saying whould be comparable to saying don't buy bud light beer because 7-11 charges $1 more than kroger for a six pack and anheuser-busch won't let kroger mail you a six pack. buy the way i won't quit drinking bud light either!


My local Mathews dealer is great and if I have any problems then he will take care of it. There is not a problem with Mathews just certain dealers. Same goes for PSE, Bowtech and others. I don't even own one anymore but I do have a AR and I will not even go to my local AR dealer because of their poor service. I sent it to AR myself. So far they have been excellent. I can talk about them because I have dealt with them direct. Call Mathews and complain about the dealer. I am sure they will help you.


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## gcdcpakmbs

Sounds to me like you didn't weigh your options properly when you bought the bow. 

My interpretation is that one of your primary, if not the top concern you have in owning a bow is the ability to shop for parts. That then should be part of your assessment of the bow. You admitted in your post you didn't even consider that before making the purchase.

One of the best things you can do in life is know yourself. Because then you, and only you are responsible for your happiness. You don't have to rely on someone else to provide it to you.

Hope you get a bow you like, and still have time for a double-lunger this season :thumbs_up


----------



## Lordform

gcdcpakmbs said:


> Sounds to me like you didn't weigh your options properly when you bought the bow.
> 
> My interpretation is that one of your primary, if not the top concern you have in owning a bow is the ability to shop for parts. That then should be part of your assessment of the bow. You admitted in your post you didn't even consider that before making the purchase.
> 
> One of the best things you can do in life is know yourself. Because then you, and only you are responsible for your happiness. You don't have to rely on someone else to provide it to you.
> 
> Hope you get a bow you like, and still have time for a double-lunger this season :thumbs_up



I wholeheartedly agree with you. Thanks.

Listen folks, the last thing I wanted to do was create any ripples, waves or seperation. I will admit that I could have more appropriately titled the thread and I apologize to anyone that was offended.

The fact is, I personally received bad customer service and wanted to relay that to others if they were looking for a reason to or not to buy a mathews. 

I do not apologize to the Mathews cultists though on their website forum but am thankful for the fun I got to have with them.

I am not going to post on this topic anymore simply because it appears to be spiraling out of control as some predicted and I don't like firing barbs at people. I prefer to spread and share love, which is what I will do in the future.


----------



## bry2476

Myk said:


> This is just part of the unfair business practices that some of the major bow makers take part in.
> If this was a bigger industry or one that mattered I'm sure the government would step in.
> 
> Why are these businesses (both the manufacturers and the shops) afraid of competition? Why do the customers put up with it and support these businesses and manufacturers?


:laugh: Oh I am sure the government needs to step in on every issue with a business. Lets change into a Commy government so we can continue to get great customer service and high quality archery equipment.  What is wrong with people today. The U.S. is the greatest country in the world because the government doesn't have to step in. Its called capitalism. You don't have to buy from anyone.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*My thoughts*



Lordform said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with you. Thanks.
> 
> Listen folks, the last thing I wanted to do was create any ripples, waves or seperation. I will admit that I could have more appropriately titled the thread and I apologize to anyone that was offended.
> 
> The fact is, I personally received bad customer service and wanted to relay that to others if they were looking for a reason to or not to buy a mathews.
> 
> I do not apologize to the Mathews cultists though on their website forum but am thankful for the fun I got to have with them.
> 
> I am not going to post on this topic anymore simply because it appears to be spiraling out of control as some predicted and I don't like firing barbs at people. I prefer to spread and share love, which is what I will do in the future.


Lets get this right, now you call anyone that has a Mathews a cultists. Your title was incorrect and shouldnt have been posted that way. I can name promblems with every Bow manufactuers in the buisness, I dont and for good reason. No bow manufactuer is perfect. You on the other hand should go buy some other brand, by the way that bow you have holds its resale better than any on the market today. Imagine That. Thats for a used bow.


----------



## bry2476

Myk said:


> Who's talking about life being "unfair"? We're talking about business and the law.
> 
> _"While small businesses often fall victim to the unfair business practices of larger companies, they can be prosecuted for unfairly dominating markets localized in cities, towns, neighborhoods, or niche industries.
> 
> Conspiring to Allocate Markets or Customers: Agreements between competitors to divide up customers, territories, or markets are illegal. This provision applies even when the competitors do not dominate the particular market or industry.
> 
> Monopolization: Preserving a monopoly position through the acquisition of competitors, *the exclusion of competitors to the given market,* or the control of market prices are all in violation of antitrust laws."_
> Sounds exactly what many of the archery manufacturers do to protect the "pro" shops. Mathews and others are in violation of The Sherman Act. Sherman Act violations are punished as criminal felonies.
> If they're going to break the monopoly laws to protect the shops, they may as well break the price fixing law to protect their customer...except they don't care about their customer.
> 
> I am amazed that any consumer would support such practices under any circumstances. I suspect that most who do are "staff shooters", friends of the business owner who doesn't want to have to compete in a fair market or employees defending their paycheck rather than the practice.
> 
> Screw the fanboy support on this forum, Lordform, send a letter to the DOJ. Corporations can be fined up to $10,000,000 for violations. Who knows, they may actually do something about it.
> 
> Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice
> 601 D Street, N.W.
> Washington, D.C. 20530
> (202) 514-3543
> 
> Federal Trade Commission
> 6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
> Washington, D.C. 20580
> (202) 326-2222
> TDD (202) 326-2502



Mathews is not a monopoly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are other companies that make bows. Mathews will sale and repair there equipment. You have other choices. You are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Daniel Boone

*Myk*

Thinks we are all brainwashed and someone held a gun to are heads when we choose a Mathews bow.

Mathews is a Monopoly. I have heard it all.:tongue:


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## Myk

Too bad reading isn't a valued skill any more.


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## Daniel Boone

*Maybe some read to much into threads*



Myk said:


> Too bad reading isn't a valued skill any more.



Sueing seems to be the answer for sure. :tongue: Dont sweat the little things in life for sure. Lets be sure and tell the dealer how he should run his buisness. I dont go back, seems pretty simple option to me.


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## Myk

> Lets be sure and tell the dealer how he should run his buisness.


Sounds to me like what you think is a perfectly fine business practice. You've shown that here and in another thread.

It's just who we think should tell the dealer how to run his business and who gets screwed.
I think laws that were put in place to protect businesses and consumers with free trade should be followed.
You think to hell with the laws, new businesses and the consumers should be screwed by protectionism.


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## sagecreek

Does this guy have an "off" switch anywhere?


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## bry2476

Myk said:


> Sounds to me like what you think is a perfectly fine business practice. You've shown that here and in another thread.
> 
> It's just who we think should tell the dealer how to run his business and who gets screwed.
> I think laws that were put in place to protect businesses and consumers with free trade should be followed.
> You think to hell with the laws, new businesses and the consumers should be screwed by protectionism.


If we did not have companies like Mathews, Bowtech, PSE, etc. we would still be shooting recurves. I am glad we live in the U.S. not a commy nation like Myk wants to live in. These companies are not evil. They are in business to provide a product and they all do a great job.


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## PMantle

Myk said:


> Sounds to me like what you think is a perfectly fine business practice. You've shown that here and in another thread.
> 
> It's just who we think should tell the dealer how to run his business and who gets screwed.
> I think laws that were put in place to protect businesses and consumers with free trade should be followed.
> You think to hell with the laws, new businesses and the consumers should be screwed by protectionism.


If the law were a bomb, you'd be dead by now.


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## Myk

bry, your moronic attempts at flames only reflect on yourself.
PSE is not one of the companies who practice protectionism and Mathews and Bowtech came along pretty late in the game.

I think that all the manufacturers who are practicing protectionism are relative newcomers who could only get people to carry their line if they found businesses like you who were afraid to actually have to compete in a free market.

Afraid someone will come along and do your job better than you are willing to so you need an artificial prop? You might want to learn the difference between a free market and protectionism. So you get your protectionism from a company, how is that any different than getting it from a government. I guess you're the real commie at heart.


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## Slippy Field

*Good Job Everyone!!!*

:thumbs_up :tongue: 

Keep it going.....get it out of your system..........


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## Daniel Boone

*Glad you have it all figured out*



Myk said:


> Sounds to me like what you think is a perfectly fine business practice. You've shown that here and in another thread.
> 
> It's just who we think should tell the dealer how to run his business and who gets screwed.
> I think laws that were put in place to protect businesses and consumers with free trade should be followed.
> You think to hell with the laws, new businesses and the consumers should be screwed by protectionism.


All I know if I dont like the buisness. I dont buy there any more. Now thats how simple it is. Consumers have a choice. I posted I like Mathews bows and dont have a promblem with there policy. Ill buy another one next year. You on the other hand buy what you like.


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## Vorian

*a little harsh*

OK I came in a little harsh the other post, I'm sorry about that

But it does not take away three simple steps:
1 You want something, the dealer's got something.
2 the dealer charges, you're free of accepting or declining.
3 you accept: then don't complain, or do not accept, then don't complain.

So close this topic, and don't complain: either buy it or not!
Final.
Your bow came with a perfectly good roller guard so quit whining.

and for information, since I was accused of not being able to read...this thread DID start all about $20.
So keep your crayons in your pocket, and save a buck leaving the standard roller guard on it.


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## Slippy Field

Vorian said:


> OK I came in a little harsh the other post, I'm sorry about that


No apologies needed I don't think there was any blood spilt. Apology accepted anyway, now lets keep this going.

Your bow sucks, mine is awesome...................:tongue:


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## Bob_Looney

don't buy mathews cause of a $20. difference in parts, don't buy Bowtech cause they fired the engineer, don't use US Bank cause they have checks with the humane society printed on them....... getting kind of ridiculous


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## 180Inches

Myk said:


> Their company policy is to set up monopolies (as far as the consumer is concerned).
> How long do you think one of the big 3 auto makers would get away with it if they said only one car dealer for that make within 300 miles?


Seems like "franchises" would be a more appropriate term here.

If the Big 3 thought they'd make more money by restricting the 3 of dealers in an area they would. Remember that the manufacturer doesn't make more money if the dealer sells the product for more $ - they make money by producing the product and selling it in volume to their dealers. Inflating the price that a shop gets for their merchandise doens't do the manufacturer any good - so there must be another reason. The manufacturer is trying to support the shops that provide quality after sales support. They want their products to be serviced and setup at the better shops where there will be time spent on tuning and attention paid to the customer - the idea is to maximize the odds that the "experience" of owning their brand of bow is a good one, thereby upping the % of repeat customers and more bows sold down the road. 

The no shipping deal is a drawback, but is it reflective of the manufacturer's level of customer service? I personally don't believe this is the case. Does it frustrate me that I have to pay 669 for a Switchback locally, but others have purchased them for 560ish? sure - but that's up to the individual dealer to set the price and I can't fault Mathews for this - they're charging essentially the same price for the bows and the dealer gets to decide their retail price. 

If they didn't honor their warranty or lied to you or screwed up an order and didn't fix it there would be a valid complaint, but in this case I think the frustration of a loca dealer's markup got to the poster.

Take care,

James


----------



## Tropicalfruitmo

And I thought there wouldn't be any entertainment on the web tonight! I may have used up all of my laptop's battery reading this thread, but it's pretty funny. Thanks for the entertainment!


----------



## 180Inches

Lordform said:


> When things need parts, we need to get them. We need the manufacturer to make the parts accessible. Instead, they limit where and from whom we can ge them, while protecting the local dealers that mark them up while prohibiting competing dealers (in the case a dealer with a reasonable price) from sending the parts out.



The problem with this statement is that there is the assumption that if another dealer was to be allowed in the area that they would adopt the $20 cheaper price that the non-local dealer has. If it was my dealership I'd just sell if for the going rate and make sure my service was better than the other shop. It's not all about price - if it was everyone would be wearing the same cheap clothes, drink the same brand drinks and shop at the same stores.

Good luck with your bow -


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## ultramax

Im not quite sure what you all are trying to say. Ok start all over again and this time dont be nice and tell me how you really feel.


----------



## ex-wolverine

*Thats what I was thinking...well said...I will split it with you*



AKDoug said:


> All this over a lousy 20 bucks. Tell you what. I'll send you the twenty bucks and you can run down to your local Matt dealer and pick one up at no loss to you.


That sums it up...lets end this thread...Geese oh pete...let it go already...


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## Perfectionist

Funny how so many people are on this guy's back about $20. How many of these people whined about the price of gas and how this will affect their attendance at various archery shoots. Also, as I remember, there was an entire post where people were whining about paying an extra $5 IBO fee at shoots. Seems like the shoe is on the other foot, and people have forgotten all the p*ss*ng and moaning that they did. This type of behavior really gets me going. This guy is simply sharing an experience, and everyone has to bash him in return.

GROW UP!!!


----------



## Doc Holliday

Perfectionist said:


> Funny how so many people are on this guy's back about $20. How many of these people whined about the price of gas and how this will affect their attendance at various archery shoots. Also, as I remember, there was an entire post where people were whining about paying an extra $5 IBO fee at shoots. Seems like the shoe is on the other foot, and people have forgotten all the p*ss*ng and moaning that they did. This type of behavior really gets me going. This guy is simply sharing an experience, and everyone has to bash him in return.
> 
> GROW UP!!!


EXCELLENT point.:thumbs_up


----------



## PMantle

Perfectionist said:


> Funny how so many people are on this guy's back about $20. How many of these people whined about the price of gas and how this will affect their attendance at various archery shoots. Also, as I remember, there was an entire post where people were whining about paying an extra $5 IBO fee at shoots. Seems like the shoe is on the other foot, and people have forgotten all the p*ss*ng and moaning that they did. This type of behavior really gets me going. This guy is simply sharing an experience, and everyone has to bash him in return.
> 
> GROW UP!!!


$20 for a part not even designed for THAT bow. Yes, you can get the double damper roller guard for the LX, but as far as anyone can tell from this soap opera, his regular, stock roller guard is not broken. He is not "sharing". Sharing would have been, 

"Hey guys, I wanted to upgrade to the double damper guard on my LX I got from a bud. The local shop is way higher than another shop I found a long way away. Mathews says I have to choose, as they won't sell direct, and the cheaper shop can't ship to me. I think that's crappy. What do you think?"

What he did instead, was bash an OEM when fault, if any, was on the dealer.


----------



## Perfectionist

PMantle said:


> $20 for a part not even designed for THAT bow. Yes, you can get the double damper roller guard for the LX, but as far as anyone can tell from this soap opera, his regular, stock roller guard is not broken. He is not "sharing". Sharing would have been,
> 
> "Hey guys, I wanted to upgrade to the double damper guard on my LX I got from a bud. The local shop is way higher than another shop I found a long way away. Mathews says I have to choose, as they won't sell direct, and the cheaper shop can't ship to me. I think that's crappy. What do you think?"
> 
> What he did instead, was bash an OEM when fault, if any, was on the dealer.


If you read his post, not the responses where people put words into his mouth... you will see that his issue is not with the price, but with the fact that the manufacturer will not allow parts to be shipped.


----------



## sagecreek

This reminds me of a wise ole saying,

Never argue with idiots, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.  

Anyways, the Mathews LX is one of my favorite bows of all time, and I'm sure it would be sweeter with the double dampener roller guard on it. Now you got me wanting to buy one for my LX.

How much did they quote you for it? and is it for the LX or are you using the Switchback guard? I know when the Switchback first came out, Mathews stated that you could not order one, that the would only be replaced on a warranty basis. 

Oh yeah, in case anyone is interested, I have a used double dampener roller guard for sale for $550.00, and Ill through in the rest of the Switchback too.


----------



## sagecreek

Perfectionist said:


> If you read his post, not the responses where people put words into his mouth... you will see that his issue is not with the price, but with the fact that the manufacturer will not allow parts to be shipped.


Well, if you guys are so smart, how would a shop owner in New England keep his doors open when Joe Blow Archer Dude could just buy his Mathews OEM parts from Fred's Bait and Tackle in Ga for a much lower cost? Everyone knows Fred's shop is in his basement, and New England guy's shop is in a high rent district.


----------



## Perfectionist

sagecreek said:


> Well, if you guys are so smart, how would a shop owner in New England keep his doors open when Joe Blow Archer Dude could just buy his Mathews OEM parts from Fred's Bait and Tackle in Ga for a much lower cost? Everyone knows Fred's shop is in his basement, and New England guy's shop is in a high rent district.


Simple, the guy in New England can choose a different carreer. Everyone has a choice... right???


----------



## PMantle

Perfectionist said:


> If you read his post, not the responses where people put words into his mouth... you will see that his issue is not with the price, but with the fact that the manufacturer will not allow parts to be shipped.


Fine, then go ahead and list the other companies who won't allow this. Oh, if there wasn't a price problem, this thread would not exist.


----------



## Perfectionist

Simple answer for the New England shop... diversification. How does any retail establishment stay afloat? The obviously do not depend on any one single brand, or any one single item. They develop business plans and estimated costs as well as estimated volume sales, then price their products accordingly. They take a loss on a couple of items that draw customers, then make profit on impulse items.


----------



## Perfectionist

PMantle said:


> Fine, then go ahead and list the other companies who won't allow this.


This thread is not about "all the other companies". The person specifically mentioned his experience. He is not out to bring down the whole industry.



PMantle said:


> Oh, if there wasn't a price problem, this thread would not exist.


So, what is the solution?


----------



## sagecreek

Perfectionist said:


> They take a loss on a couple of items that draw customers, then make profit on impulse items.


You mean like double dampener roller guards?


----------



## Perfectionist

sagecreek said:


> You mean like double dampener roller guards?


Hey, it's just business. The guy could have taken a couple dollars off the price in order to keep customer satisfaction. But that is his business, and it is not right for anyone to tell him how to run his business. So, if the store owner can absorb the loss of this one customer, then more power to him. But you know what they say... if a person has a good experience, they will tell ten people. If they have a bad experience, they will tell one hundred. This is one of the checks and balances that consumers have against the great "capitalist" economic engine. 

Also, if the dealer's demand for parts is low, then they should lower the price. If demand is high, then increase the price. My guess is that the demand for this specialized part is low, so the price should realistically go down. If not, then that would be considered "inelastic", and is seen as a monopolistic state.


----------



## CA Bowhunter

Wow I can not believe that you are [email protected]## about 20 freaking dollars when your State of FL and surrounding's State are recovering from the worst hurricane season ever you should thank the good Lord for the safety of family and there health and ask the Lord to for give you for being such an *****.Blake


----------



## hawgdawg

As long as this topic has been going on you could have driven wherever to get your part. Seems that Matt has their policies so you have choice. Pay the 20.00 extra or buy gas to travel. Seems as though the 20.00 is more feasible. It was explained to me by Mathews that anytime any bow company sends parts to individuals instead of dealers there is a huge liability issue at stake. Thats why they have dealers to take care of problems. Seems as though to me that 20.00 for an UPGRADE isn't enough to get upset with. If so DRIVE


----------



## PMantle

Perfectionist said:


> This thread is not about "all the other companies". The person specifically mentioned his experience. He is not out to bring down the whole industry.
> 
> 
> So, what is the solution?


In one post you say it's about not shipping. In another it's about his experience. You sir, have an agenda. Next post it will be something else. His position has absolutely no defense. Your are doins about as good as can be done though. I applaud your effort.


----------



## Perfectionist

PMantle said:


> In one post you say it's about not shipping. In another it's about his experience. You sir, have an agenda. Next post it will be something else. His position has absolutely no defense. Your are doins about as good as can be done though. I applaud your effort.


Where did I say that it's not about shipping? This is not my story, so I refrain from passing judgement. Maybe you should to the same. Funny how I ask you what your solution is, and you quickly jump to the defensive and accuse me of having an agenda. Obviously you have something to hide.


----------



## Lordform

CA Bowhunter said:


> Wow I can not believe that you are [email protected]## about 20 freaking dollars when your State of FL and surrounding's State are recovering from the worst hurricane season ever you should thank the good Lord for the safety of family and there health and ask the Lord to for give you for being such an *****.Blake


Bro, I was without power for 2 weeks because of the hurricane. Per your post, I have EVERY right to try to hold on to $20.00 (even though that is not the reason for this post)- especially since I had to buy a lot of things I would not otherwise bought.

Speaking of God and forgiveness, maybe you should hit your knees and ask for forgiveness as well. Last I read the Bible, you are judged by the same measure you judge by. Also, is it your Christian practice to laden your sermons with venom?

Maybe you should stick to the topic.


----------



## SeanH.

*???? Oh My God....*

Look what you all have done in one day shame on you.....

This post reminds me of a pic that someone had in another thread it was a pic of a retarted fella running in the special olympics it said something to the fact of arguing is like being in a race in the special oplympics at the end of the argument you are still retarted or something to that effect.. I f any one seen this please put it in this post I don't know how, but it would fit so well....


----------



## PMantle

Perfectionist said:


> Where did I say that it's not about shipping? This is not my story, so I refrain from passing judgement. Maybe you should to the same. Funny how I ask you what your solution is, and you quickly jump to the defensive. So, obviously you have something to hide.



Hide?  There is no solution for someone like him. For me? Depends on how bad I want a double damper roller guard for my LX. At this point, that desire is "free only". For him? Either pay the asking price locally, drive to the lower priced dealer, or use the roller guard designed for the bow. This isn't quantum physics. And I think he has made his desision on his next bow. Hoyt will be in the crosshairs soon.


----------



## Perfectionist

PMantle said:


> Hide?  There is no solution for someone like him. For me? Depends on how bad I want a double damper roller guard for my LX. At this point, that desire is "free only". For him? Either pay the asking price locally, drive to the lower priced dealer, or use the roller guard designed for the bow. This isn't quantum physics. And I think he has made his desision on his next bow. Hoyt will be in the crosshairs soon.


Well then, he has made his decision... and I agree, that the laws of super-symmetric physics don't apply in this instance. So, let sleeping dogs lie, because nothing you or I can say, will make him change his mind. There... problem solved.


----------



## Lordform

And I think he has made his desision on his next bow. Hoyt will be in the crosshairs soon.[/QUOTE]


LMAO...you got that right


----------



## amccoy

*Forget About It!*

Hey Guy, you're right. But guess what, can anything really be expected to change in our lifetime? Mathews is going to do whatever to maximize profits regardless of any individual archer. I currently own the Mathews Ovation for light target shooting in the yard, it's my third bow from that company. And for the reasons you've mentioned, and many others, I also disagree with their polices. The biggest joke about Mathews is that they can make people believe that their low end bows are as reliable and accurate as their higher end bows. One end of their line of bows is obviously bull you know what. But big deal. If you want to be happy in the field, buy and shoot a Hoyt. They are reliable, sufficiently fast, accurate, and deadly in all climates without the need for additional tuning due to moderate or extreme changes of temperature. Hoyt is also supreme in competition. And if an unforeseen occurance in the universe creates a malfunction on a Hoyt, you'll be glad to pay the amount to fix it. There should be a law that bow shops must display bins of replaced limbs and risers. I guarantee you, Hoyt would not win that competition. Take your pick.


----------



## sagecreek

Lordform said:


> And I think he has made his desision on his next bow. Hoyt will be in the crosshairs soon.



LMAO...you got that right[/QUOTE]

Can you buy those Alpha Shocks from another dealer and have them mailed to you?  

Have a good one Lordform! Hope to shoot with you some day. Your a hoot!


----------



## the GREY GHOST

No wonder Mathews hung the phone up on this guy.


----------



## Dredly

Wow, I read this whole damn thread... good thing I was bored today 

Lordform if it helps I agree with you. Especially in today's land of everything being on the net, the inability to purchase parts via the web is pathetic.

Regardless of what part you needed (short of the whole bow) as long as the work wasn't warranty based I see absolutely no reason why you should ever have to go to a dealer for anything if you don't want to. Especially if it is a dealer you do not like, have personal issues with, price gouging...

I didn't realize that Mathews did this, I am pretty glad I went with Bowtech, the Bowtech dealer in my area is an upstanding guy that I have no problem going to.... the Mathews dealer I didn't have much of an interaction with but he definately tried pushing me to buy Mathews over Hoyt and Bowtech (which he also "stocks", 2 Bowtech and a few Hoyt and lots of Mathews).


----------



## FS560

This thread has really opened my eyes about the type of cultists that buy Mathews and think the sun rises and sets in Matt's butt.

Good night!


----------



## RecordKeeper

FS560 said:


> This post has really opened my eyes about the type of cultists that buy Mathews and think the sun rises and sets in Matt's butt.
> 
> Good night!


For the very first time, I think I am in total agreement with FS560!:embara:


----------



## archerdad

FS560 said:


> This thread has really opened my eyes about the type of cultists that buy Mathews and think the sun rises and sets in Matt's butt.
> 
> Good night!


or hoyt or bowtech or pse or ar...


----------



## 1time

Just out of curiosity was your dealer at retail? Or $20.00 over retail?




the GREY GHOST No wonder Mathews hung the phone up on this guy. 

SeanH. Look what you all have done in one day shame on you.....

This post reminds me of a pic that someone had in another thread it was a pic of a retarted fella running in the special olympics it said something to the fact of arguing is like being in a race in the special oplympics at the end of the argument you are still retarted or something to that effect.. I f any one seen this please put it in this post I don't know how, but it would fit so well....


----------



## CA Bowhunter

Lordform said:


> Bro, I was without power for 2 weeks because of the hurricane. Per your post, I have EVERY right to try to hold on to $20.00 (even though that is not the reason for this post)- especially since I had to buy a lot of things I would not otherwise bought.
> 
> Speaking of God and forgiveness, maybe you should hit your knees and ask for forgiveness as well. Last I read the Bible, you are judged by the same measure you judge by. Also, is it your Christian practice to laden your sermons with venom?
> 
> Maybe you should stick to the topic.


I do ask forgiveness every day and I am not judging you what I should said it you should be thankful for what you have when so many do not my bad. Blake


----------



## 3dthunder

*bad service*

The fact is guys, Mathews tends to be haughty and hard to talk to most of the time. They care very little for the customer, most of us have seen it over the years, especially if you have worked in a shop. I used to try to talk to them about the sorry cables and strings they shipped with bows but was told " if they don't want to buy another one for it, thats on them. Maybe they would like a custom string or cable better if they want to buy one like that". This was on a bow that was 2 weeks oldand the cam had busted the serving ( we have all seen these do just that, especially a few years ago on MQ's and such ). 
Mathews has absolutley no consideration for a customer. They sell a hot item and its " Take it or leave it attitude that is displayed to dealers and customers alike" I have had some really eye opening conversations with Mathews while working in the shop.......no consideration for us, the dealer, I can tell you that and no consideration for the customer as well. They don't care............just like gas prices..........as long as people are lining up for the product........they will get whatever they want and do it however they want to do it.....................remember guys............the customer, in the end, is always right and has the power, together, to effect change. 
What I ended up doing was replacing cables for a lot of guys on their new bows because Mathews would not do it and according tothem, never had a problem but I think the whole country knew better than that......hard to charge a guy 15 bucks for a new cable for a 2 week old bow............I couldn't do it............Mathews told me to do it.......piss poor customer service.........As I said before guys, I worked at the dealership and I have also been a customer..........the service that Mathews offers would not rankin the top half of available companys out there. Now, Mathews replaces only one limb when a problem occurs.................not my idea of standingbehind your product. 
All of the " original owner warrranty" crap started when the popularity of online used bow sales and such became a problem for the company itself. It wasn't a problem until classifieds, auctions and person to person sales started to makea dent. With todays prices, many people have no choice but look for used bows to fit their budget. Just because that sale didn't benefit the dealer a second time, Mathews decided to " scare" people away from buying a used bow...........so now, less people are shooting them that would have been shooting them to start with, deciding that they liked the brand and saving to buy a new one later. So they buy another used bow that the manufacturer will stand behind............and more than likely will develop some brand loyalty because of the bond.....................
Mathews policies over the last few years will, in the end, make a dent in the incredible sucess that the company has had over the last 10 years..........image can be everything in the end and other companies are quickly either catching up or developing other technoligy that catches customers eyes. In the end, Mathews rude, brash way of doing business with both their dealers and their customers will make a dent in the one area that they do not want to see it happen............profits........


----------



## maskedONE

3dthunder said:


> The fact is guys, Mathews tends to be haughty and hard to talk to most of the time. They care very little for the customer, most of us have seen it over the years, especially if you have worked in a shop. I used to try to talk to them about the sorry cables and strings they shipped with bows but was told \" if they don\'t want to buy another one for it, thats on them. Maybe they would like a custom string or cable better if they want to buy one like that\". This was on a bow that was 2 weeks oldand the cam had busted the serving ( we have all seen these do just that, especially a few years ago on MQ\'s and such ).
> Mathews has absolutley no consideration for a customer. They sell a hot item and its \" Take it or leave it attitude that is displayed to dealers and customers alike\" I have had some really eye opening conversations with Mathews while working in the shop.......no consideration for us, the dealer, I can tell you that and no consideration for the customer as well. They don\'t care............just like gas prices..........as long as people are lining up for the product........they will get whatever they want and do it however they want to do it.....................remember guys............the customer, in the end, is always right and has the power, together, to effect change.
> What I ended up doing was replacing cables for a lot of guys on their new bows because Mathews would not do it and according tothem, never had a problem but I think the whole country knew better than that......hard to charge a guy 15 bucks for a new cable for a 2 week old bow............I couldn\'t do it............Mathews told me to do it.......piss poor customer service.........As I said before guys, I worked at the dealership and I have also been a customer..........the service that Mathews offers would not rankin the top half of available companys out there. Now, Mathews replaces only one limb when a problem occurs.................not my idea of standingbehind your product.
> All of the \" original owner warrranty\" crap started when the popularity of online used bow sales and such became a problem for the company itself. It wasn\'t a problem until classifieds, auctions and person to person sales started to makea dent. With todays prices, many people have no choice but look for used bows to fit their budget. Just because that sale didn\'t benefit the dealer a second time, Mathews decided to \" scare\" people away from buying a used bow...........so now, less people are shooting them that would have been shooting them to start with, deciding that they liked the brand and saving to buy a new one later. So they buy another used bow that the manufacturer will stand behind............and more than likely will develop some brand loyalty because of the bond.....................
> Mathews policies over the last few years will, in the end, make a dent in the incredible sucess that the company has had over the last 10 years..........image can be everything in the end and other companies are quickly either catching up or developing other technoligy that catches customers eyes. In the end, Mathews rude, brash way of doing business with both their dealers and their customers will make a dent in the one area that they do not want to see it happen............profits........


It seems to me that you - of all people - should be very cautions of throwing stones.


----------



## Vorian

*dang*

I honestly can't believe this tread is still hot!


----------



## Doc Holliday

3dthunder said:


> The fact is guys, Mathews tends to be haughty and hard to talk to most of the time. They care very little for the customer, most of us have seen it over the years, especially if you have worked in a shop. I used to try to talk to them about the sorry cables and strings they shipped with bows but was told " if they don't want to buy another one for it, thats on them. Maybe they would like a custom string or cable better if they want to buy one like that". This was on a bow that was 2 weeks oldand the cam had busted the serving ( we have all seen these do just that, especially a few years ago on MQ's and such ).
> Mathews has absolutley no consideration for a customer. They sell a hot item and its " Take it or leave it attitude that is displayed to dealers and customers alike" I have had some really eye opening conversations with Mathews while working in the shop.......no consideration for us, the dealer, I can tell you that and no consideration for the customer as well. They don't care............just like gas prices..........as long as people are lining up for the product........they will get whatever they want and do it however they want to do it.....................remember guys............the customer, in the end, is always right and has the power, together, to effect change.
> What I ended up doing was replacing cables for a lot of guys on their new bows because Mathews would not do it and according tothem, never had a problem but I think the whole country knew better than that......hard to charge a guy 15 bucks for a new cable for a 2 week old bow............I couldn't do it............Mathews told me to do it.......piss poor customer service.........As I said before guys, I worked at the dealership and I have also been a customer..........the service that Mathews offers would not rankin the top half of available companys out there. Now, Mathews replaces only one limb when a problem occurs.................not my idea of standingbehind your product.
> All of the " original owner warrranty" crap started when the popularity of online used bow sales and such became a problem for the company itself. It wasn't a problem until classifieds, auctions and person to person sales started to makea dent. With todays prices, many people have no choice but look for used bows to fit their budget. Just because that sale didn't benefit the dealer a second time, Mathews decided to " scare" people away from buying a used bow...........so now, less people are shooting them that would have been shooting them to start with, deciding that they liked the brand and saving to buy a new one later. So they buy another used bow that the manufacturer will stand behind............and more than likely will develop some brand loyalty because of the bond.....................
> Mathews policies over the last few years will, in the end, make a dent in the incredible sucess that the company has had over the last 10 years..........image can be everything in the end and other companies are quickly either catching up or developing other technoligy that catches customers eyes. In the end, Mathews rude, brash way of doing business with both their dealers and their customers will make a dent in the one area that they do not want to see it happen............profits........



Thank you. :thumbs_up


----------



## Doc Holliday

Vorian said:


> I honestly can't believe this tread is still hot!



This is an issue that strikes a nerve with a lot of people regardless of what the fanboys would have you believe.


----------



## Alan in GA

*is there a smilies for.......*

linch mobs? It would be a well used one!
All I do for this post now is look to see how many posts have been counted,,,,,oops,,this post will raise by even another!

We need a "linch,,or is it 'lynch" mob smilie face icon!
Alan in,,,,Ga


----------



## 3dthunder

*and........?*

Tell me.....whistleb...........why would you make that remark to me.......if its my signature and the companies I am proud to associate my self with......I just attained that staff status yesterday and *am very proud of it *and my affiliation. All I posted was my past experience working in a shop that sold Mathews bows for years. Nothing was made up or not factual. So many people jump on this thread and make their opinions known and all I did was lend some substance to the conversation. Is it that I, who has seen the head of the monster from both the customers standpoint and from inside the dealer standpoint, can actually substantiate some of these claims? There are a lot of people out there that are extremely loyal and that is great. But the fact remains that the attitudewas an issue that was brought up and my experience, an extensive one, mirrors that observation. Not bashing............just relaying an actual experience to the post instead of doing what so many others do.......posting based on feelings or just to stir it up. I don't do the bashing thing.......I have no problem discussing my experiences though. I don't sit around and jump on threads with post like "%&*%$$#@ brabd sucks or stay away from brand (*&^%&%%^%.......". I feel that someone in my position shouldn't display such a disrespect towards others but I don't mind posting my past experiences in a honest, open and candid way. That said....I hope to show some of those Apex 7's what the back bumper of a Generation II looks like this year.........lol.....whether it'll happen or not remains to be seen. Both bows look to be some of the cream of the crop this year!!!!! I can't wait.


----------



## ex-wolverine

*Bottom line ..Its not Mathews Fault*

THIS IS NOT A COMPANY ISSUE!!!! THIS IS A SHOP OWNER THAT PRICED HIS GEAR WAY TOO HIGH....HOW DOES THE COMPANY GET DRAGGED INTO THIS!!!!??????

I just dont get the point and title of this thread...

I guess I will get mad at Hoyt because I paid 780.00 for my Ultra Tec
...Hoyt Sucks, not the dealer who raised the MSRP so he could make a few bucks...

Ooops!! Hoyt has a monoply now, better take them to court...Not!!! I would pay that price again if I liked the shop and the equipment...It just so happens that my shop treats me well, so Im willing to pay little higher prices in return for good service...

Lets get real people...Let this one go...Next time , blame the shop not the company...


----------



## Rooster Cogburn

*Identity Crisis*



FS560 said:


> This thread has really opened my eyes about the type of cultists that buy Mathews and think the sun rises and sets in Matt's butt.
> 
> Good night!


I really wish you guys would make up your minds, am I a _Closed Minded Elitest_ or am I a _Cultist_? I'm so confused!


----------



## bry2476

Myk said:


> bry, your moronic attempts at flames only reflect on yourself.
> PSE is not one of the companies who practice protectionism and Mathews and Bowtech came along pretty late in the game.
> 
> I think that all the manufacturers who are practicing protectionism are relative newcomers who could only get people to carry their line if they found businesses like you who were afraid to actually have to compete in a free market.
> 
> Afraid someone will come along and do your job better than you are willing to so you need an artificial prop? You might want to learn the difference between a free market and protectionism. So you get your protectionism from a company, how is that any different than getting it from a government. I guess you're the real commie at heart.


I beleive it is very clear who the moron is on the is thread Myk. PSE has AR and their polcies are close to the same. As far as Mathews and Bowtech coming along late in the game; yes they did, but there innovations are what is going to keep archery going. Solo Cam, Parallel Limb design, the roller guard that started this whole discussion, ever heard of these. Mathews is not practicing protectionism. They have a premium bow line. Internet and shipping policies are there for a reason. When ever they open there self to these practices it devalues their products and dealers lose money. If you could just understand a economic concept then you wouldn't have to post moronic statements like "mathews is a monopoly", "the government would step in", 

and as far as my business goes. I do not carry these lines because they will not allow internet sales and I do not blame them for it. The dealers invest thousands of dollars in equipment and they do not want them to be under cut by a person like me that doesn't carry much inventory. The dealers that have small stores that are at risk of going under. They have to compete with Internet Sales, Bass Pro and Cabela's. That is why PSE had to start AR because internet sales and Bass Pro had devalued the brand. That is why Bowtech and Hoyt started Diamond and Reflex so their brand is not devalued.

(Myk) ""businesses like you who were afraid to actually have to compete in a free market."" I do operate in a free market, its called the internet. Think about what you are saying next time you want to spout garbage about Monopolies and Protectionism. You are wrong.

About the roller guard, I think that he is over reacting. You ran into a dealer that may over price his products. I have gone to shops everywhere and prices are different. A 10 pd bag of food plot seed is 50 dollars at a small shop where it is 30 at bass pro. The same with the roller guard. Don't buy from the dealer. go somewhere else

Thats all I have to say about this. Myk just burnt me up about the facist commy statements.


----------



## 180Inches

Rooster Cogburn said:


> I really wish you guys would make up your minds, am I a _Closed Minded Elitest_ or am I a _Cultist_? I'm so confused!


Maybe we can get some of them to drink the kool-aid...

JUST KIDDING!


----------



## Myk

I'm trying to find where I said "Mathews is a monopoly", Bry. Searched the whole thread and it's only you people who can't read that claim I said that. As for the other quote that is taken out of context, I guess we all should be impressed that you were able to read a whole five words in a row.

I don't know why I'm bothering. It's obvious that the fanboys either can't read or don't mind that laws are not followed as long as it's their brand breaking the law.

Q: I own a retail clothing store and the Brand Company refuses to sell me any of its line of clothes. These clothes are very popular in my area, so this policy is hurting my business. Isn’t it illegal for Brand to refuse to sell to me?

A: *It could be illegal if the refusal to sell is based on an agreement between Brand and your competitors.* Without an agreement, the antitrust laws allow manufacturers substantial leeway in selecting the dealers with whom they deal. Indeed, manufacturers select dealers for a variety of reasons, including a preference for those who carry a full line of their products, the desire to maintain a certain "image" for the product line, or the ability to maintain a minimum volume of business to minimize distribution costs. The antitrust laws do not interfere with business decisions like these as long as the manufacturer acts unilaterally and not as part of a scheme to monopolize a market.

Agreements to restrict advertising. Restrictions on price advertising can be illegal if they deprive consumers of important information. Restrictions on non-price advertising also may be illegal if the evidence shows the restrictions have anticompetitive effects and lack reasonable business justification. The FTC recently charged a group of auto dealers with restricting comparative and discount advertising to the detriment of consumers.

Colorado Car Dealer Sues Porsche for Restraint of Trade
The suit contends that Porsche nixed Glauser's attempt to purchase an underperforming Porsche dealership in Boulder, Colo., for $1 million and move it closer to Braman's Porsche dealership.
Glauser says Porsche managers told him the deal was being denied in order to "protect" Braman's and Stevinson's Porsche dealerships. http://news.findlaw.com/andrews/bf/atr/20050823/20050823glauser.html

Division of Markets: An agreement among competitors to divide the market for a particular product gives each an effective monopoly in his share of the market. Even though other competitive products may be available, each firm has the power to fix prices, output, etc., as to a particular product. Timken. Such agreements are illegal per se.


----------



## 2005Ultramag

Lordform said:


> Les, Les, Les.....You let the cat out the bag didnt you??
> 
> Oh, wait a sec....since you are SO good at research, take another little bitty gander at my original post. My friend, I never at any time said the part was to be covered under warranty. In fact, I mentioned my trying to buy it.
> 
> I hope your occupation in life has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a thorough detecitve.


Why did you remove the part that said you were the original owner, and that you wanted the part installed?

OH?

IT WAS NEVER THERE?

Then where did Les get these ideas.

What I got from your post is that shop *A* wanted $20 more for the part than shop* B*, but shop* A *is closer. Why should it be too much to expect both shops to sell the same part for the same price? Apparently some feel that it's out of line to expect such a thing. I don't. I have to do exactly that to make a living. you see... I'm in the auto parts business, and my manufacturer won't lock me into a market without competition like Matthews is doing with your local pro shop. I actually have to compete with other stores. What a concept huh?


----------



## Les

2005UM,

Through my posts on this situation, I made attempts at asking Lordform to give up more pertinent info regarding his situation. You must have missed my very first post. I also PM'ed him with an offer of assistance that was rejected. In his first post, he did not clearly explain his issue was one of pure "WANT" not necessity, at least not until his later postings on the Mathews website. 
If his attempt to buy the part was out of "NEED," that to me communicated a broken or defective part, and the LX was not operational. I wanted to help him get the bow going again if that were the case, but first I asked about warranty status. If not under warranty, then I had the very same part he needed/wanted laying here on my desk. He did not respond with details of the warranty status, so I looked into his previous posts on AT thinking this might just be a troll looking to make waves. 
I discovered "WANT" is the case here, as he was only looking to perform an upgrade to his LX of a double roller guard. He conveniently witheld some very important facts in his original post that contributed to such a weak argument that Mathews is a poor company. His credibility fell fast when he failed to respond to questions about the details. 

I'll respond no more on this situation. I tried to help him out, but he had another agenda. Funny the timing of this being when a new model was rumored to be released by the same manufacturer! Guess we never know if and when we are being manipulated by someone!


----------



## 2005Ultramag

I'll grant you that ANYTHING can happen on these forums, and people sure have some strange motives. On another forum I post to we recently had a poster actually fake a suicide. WT-----? I took the first post here strictly at face value without supposing anything. If there was some behind the scenes stuff going on I certainly couldn't know that. Whether it was want, or need though, why would one store want so much more for the same part than the other? Kudos for trying to help the guy out.


----------



## Les

LF never stated the part he wanted was in stock at his local dealership. Maybe his local dealer had included the shipping charges of next-day air and LF also requested installation of the part. We do not know the details. What if the dealer in Tampa is selling their part at "below manuf. suggested retail" because they are passing on some savings to their customers that they earned in large order shipping or high sales discounts? Again, we were not given enough details.

Hard to see if it is an "Apples-to-apples" comparison without all the details.


----------



## bry2476

Myk said:


> I'm trying to find where I said "Mathews is a monopoly", Bry.
> 
> 
> 
> Myk said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Their company policy is to set up monopolies *(as far as the consumer is concerned).
> *This breeds stores who gouge because they can.*
> If they are going to limit a store's competition to protect the store they should set the store's prices to protect their customer. But it sounds like they don't care about their customer.
> 
> How long do you think one of the big 3 auto makers would get away with it if they said only one car dealer for that make within 300 miles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Searched the whole thread and it's only you people who can't read that claim I said that*. As for the other quote that is taken out of context, I guess we all should be impressed that you were able to read a whole five words in a row.
> 
> I don't know why I'm bothering. It's obvious that the fanboys either can't read or don't mind that laws are not followed as long as it's their brand breaking the law.
> 
> Q: I own a retail clothing store and the Brand Company refuses to sell me any of its line of clothes. These clothes are very popular in my area, so this policy is hurting my business. Isn’t it illegal for Brand to refuse to sell to me?
> 
> A: *It could be illegal if the refusal to sell is based on an agreement between Brand and your competitors.* Without an agreement, the antitrust laws allow manufacturers substantial leeway in selecting the dealers with whom they deal. Indeed, manufacturers select dealers for a variety of reasons, including a preference for those who carry a full line of their products, the desire to maintain a certain "image" for the product line, or the ability to maintain a minimum volume of business to minimize distribution costs. The antitrust laws do not interfere with business decisions like these as long as the manufacturer acts unilaterally and not as part of a scheme to monopolize a market.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Myk is mad because the big bad company will not sell to him.  I am very impressed with your ability to find worthless articles and paste into these forums. You are a asset to archery talk. Your liberal psycho babble is refreshing and informative. Lets call John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Barbara Boxer and see if they can help us out. I love this stuff. :teeth:


----------



## Lordform

Les said:


> 2005UM,
> 
> Through my posts on this situation, I made attempts at asking Lordform to give up more pertinent info regarding his situation. You must have missed my very first post. I also PM'ed him with an offer of assistance that was rejected. In his first post, he did not clearly explain his issue was one of pure "WANT" not necessity, at least not until his later postings on the Mathews website.
> If his attempt to buy the part was out of "NEED," that to me communicated a broken or defective part, and the LX was not operational. I wanted to help him get the bow going again if that were the case, but first I asked about warranty status. If not under warranty, then I had the very same part he needed/wanted laying here on my desk. He did not respond with details of the warranty status, so I looked into his previous posts on AT thinking this might just be a troll looking to make waves.
> I discovered "WANT" is the case here, as he was only looking to perform an upgrade to his LX of a double roller guard. He conveniently witheld some very important facts in his original post that contributed to such a weak argument that Mathews is a poor company. His credibility fell fast when he failed to respond to questions about the details.
> 
> I'll respond no more on this situation. I tried to help him out, but he had another agenda. Funny the timing of this being when a new model was rumored to be released by the same manufacturer! Guess we never know if and when we are being manipulated by someone!


What was witheld?? Why can't you just chalk it up to your lack of reading comprehension? I never said it was warranty. I DID say I wanted to buy it. I also gave an accurate account of my experience with Mathews and its customer service dept- regardless of the crap Shay has fed you followers on the Mathews website.

Why are you so intent on being right about your intially being wrong?? Just because you read something wrong or thought you saw something you didnt does not mean facts were witheld. 

for the final time, if you will RERERERERE read my post, you will see that my problem is with Mathews not allowing another dealer to send me a part while the one in my area is gouging and they are aware of it. 

Why do I have to have an agenda? Why is everything a conspiracy with you?? If that is what you are looking for you should turn away from your computer and back to the Springer show that you are probably watching through your neighbor's window. I would summise that YOU have an agenda with your continued posting on this subject when you yourself have stated that "Guess we never know if and when we are being manipulated by someone!" What excludes YOU from this??

In addition, I would be a fool to accept your help of any kind after your posts here and on the Mathews website which is a complete hometeam joke- and I mean that in the funniest way. I don't care if you offered to send the part to for free and then to wipe my baby's butt until he is out of diapers, I would not only refuse it, but be insulted by the gesture. I find you to be two faced, without ethic and bottomless.

Go find something else to misinterpret and leave this post alone- you have put in your .02 about 477 times- and you have YET to actually post a coherent response to my intial post.


----------



## Les

I'm walking away....wish I could have helped you out. Wish you had answered my questions when I asked them. But you had a bigger issue with the company. I wish it had not gotten insulting like that last post. You never know what a new friend could mean to you. I'll still buy you a beer and talk bowhunting anytime!


----------



## Lordform

Les said:


> I'm walking away....wish I could have helped you out. Wish you had answered my questions when I asked them. But you had a bigger issue with the company. I wish it had not gotten insulting like that last post. You never know what a new friend could mean to you. I'll still buy you a beer and talk bowhunting anytime!


Les,

I appreciate your being a man about it. I would like to have been as well. I felt the need to dispell any notion that, as you insinuated, I have an agenda other than that which I have displayed. I completely and accurately accounted for my experience with Mathews and their c/s dept. I would have liked for the thread to have stayed on that subject but unfortunately your first post was, in essence, calling me either a liar or a fraud.

I have no ill will. In this case we will learn and move on.

Thanks.


----------



## Dredly

that was a little bit harsh...


----------



## bigbuck78

Just when I thought I have seen it all---I feel like I am in the 4th grade again! Mathews sets up dealer territories to protect you the consumer and the retailer. It sounds like you have a bad relationship with your dealer, otherwise he would of wrote it up as a warranty repair. Think of it this way -Is there a Lexus dealer on every corner? Also, in the future do not let your emotions get in the way of your logic.


----------



## Lordform

bigbuck78 said:


> Just when I thought I have seen it all---I feel like I am in the 4th grade again! Mathews sets up dealer territories to protect you the consumer and the retailer. It sounds like you have a bad relationship with your dealer, otherwise he would of wrote it up as a warranty repair. Think of it this way -Is there a Lexus dealer on every corner? Also, in the future do not let your emotions get in the way of your logic.


I give up.


----------



## bowtech dually

Maybe I'm way off base and it wouldn't be the first time, but I bet half these crazed Mathew's supporters are on factory shooter status at various Dealers and receive there bows at reduced cost if not for free. These same folks that will kiss you know what to save a few bucks fault Lordform for trying to save a few bucks of his own. Hey guys do or say anything to support a company with poor customer service as long as there's something in it for you. And by the way why arent we discussing the fact that Crackers could not get string and cable lenght information from Mathew's customer service, This guys forgotten more about bow tuning and setup than most shops will ever know. Does this information become a classified secret once your limb decals fall off.
Even when the customer (bow owner) himself got on the phone Mathew's still would not forward the information, somehow I know Les and Pmantle will have a logical explanation for this.
BD


----------



## Dirtburner

The way LF whines about every thing ,maybe that shop charged him $20.00 
more to get rid of him.That way they don't have to listen to him whine in the future.


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## Lordform

Dirtburner said:


> The way LF whines about every thing ,maybe that shop charged him $20.00
> more to get rid of him.That way they don't have to listen to him whine in the future.


I think your sheep is calling you. Maybe you should get back to the barn.


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## Dirtburner

Ha HA Ha See what I mean. Such a Whinner.


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## Treestalker

LF please enlighten me as to how mathews customer service has done you so wrong?On the mathews site Shay responed to you stating that he gave you a couple of more dealers addresses that were closer than Tampa.That could help you out.Did he not?Why is it that you and everyone else on your brand-bashing bandwagon can't figure out that mathews has set there policies to help protect the very dealers that YOU claim are gouging the prices.Have you ever tried to buy a Harley-Davidson?Try price shopping them and see what you come up with.That will blow your mind.Now.You still have not answerd my question to the first post I replied to on this topic.Did you go to the shop in Miami and cause a big stink there about his pricing?I would venture to say you did not.It's much easier to come to this site were you know that people will jump on your bandwagon.


----------



## Dean Lawter

*Harley Davidsons*

I have one, and you are right about the bike. Its called supply and demand. So while we are on the subject, why don't we tell everyone how HD works some more. YOU CAN go buy parts at HD dealerships, normally do not have to order them, can install them yourself or pay, AND THE PRICE IS ALWAYS BY THE BOOK. Every shop I've been in sells parts at MSRP prices, the only way to get a discount is to be a HOG member or on occasion with some shops buy your bike there. We are talking a 10% discount. If you need a set of handlebars, price them in manufactures catalog and go get them. I agree with lordform, if Mathews wants dealers to sell for certain prices as not to under cut other dealers, they should equally frown on pricey mark ups.


----------



## Lordform

Treestalker said:


> LF please enlighten me as to how mathews customer service has done you so wrong?On the mathews site Shay responed to you stating that he gave you a couple of more dealers addresses that were closer than Tampa.That could help you out.Did he not?Why is it that you and everyone else on your brand-bashing bandwagon can't figure out that mathews has set there policies to help protect the very dealers that YOU claim are gouging the prices.Have you ever tried to buy a Harley-Davidson?Try price shopping them and see what you come up with.That will blow your mind.Now.You still have not answerd my question to the first post I replied to on this topic.Did you go to the shop in Miami and cause a big stink there about his pricing?I would venture to say you did not.It's much easier to come to this site were you know that people will jump on your bandwagon.


If Shay said it is raining even though the sun is out you would believe him, apparently. Why does his word hold so much? He is the person that was so incompetent at Mathews. 

I have not answered your question because I do not owe you an answer, especially when your questions are framed and worded in an antagonizing fashion...such as to try to bait or trick a person. You don't want answers, you want a way to make someone look stupid or prove that you are right and I can see right through it. I have made it my business to ignore you, as I will after this response.

Why does it matter if I caused a stink in the guy's store or not? Why would I? I called and got a price. I called another and got another price that was significantly lower. I want the cheaper one sent to me from the cheaper store which happens to be in Tampa. There is no reason to make trouble for the guy around here. He is obviously gouging and I am so sickened by it that I would not take it from him if he were to offer it to me for free now, simply on principle. If my principles prevent me from wanting ANYTHING from the local gouger, I am not going to waste my energy him. It is called "picking your fights". 

Again, like the other people who have read this post and replied INCOHERENTLY as you have, I will restate to you- it has nothing to do with the local guy. He gouges and exploits policy. HE does not get my business. Thats all there is to that.

If a person wants a part sent from a dealer it should be possible, especially when a local merchant is blatantly gouging. It should be Mathews' business to allow this to happen, which in turn would help keep the gougers in check and keep customers happy. Regardless of what anyone says or thinks, and how people say so and so deserves to make a living, price of living, etc...they would not even have a shop if people did'nt buy things. Their shops will not remain if they don;t keep people buying things and treat them properly. The retail world is 100% customer service driven. Thats the way it is. 

To respond to your next pointless remark which has no bearing on anytihng in this entire thread, the next closest Mathews retailer is in West Palm Beach, FL. Still a sizable drive from miami, and one that I, as a customer, should not have to make for a simple part. Not an entire bow, not a gun, not anything more than a simple, 7 oz bolt on part- as I stated to Shay. Not becasue I am cheap or lazy or whatever...which I can be lazy all I want, what does it matter?......but because I do not want to drive 1 1/2 hrs to WPB for a part that can be shipped if it were not held up by "policy". I will do without it first-that is my "policy".

When you see Shay at home tonight, after you tell him Hello for me, please ask him to begin telling the truth about our interaction.

I am done. I will not reply to another senseless, pointless, incoherent, antagonizing post on this topic. I have already allowed myself to be more abrasive than I care to be at any time.

I will say for the last time. Mathews makes excellent bows- however, Mathews customer service and their no -ship- simple -parts policy is horrible. If a person wants a great bow with poor customer service, Mathews is the place.


----------



## zmaxgod

*Dont buy a chevy, LORDFORM!!!*

Lordform, I've read through the pages of nonsense that you have created by stating "dont buy a mathews" And I can empathize with your displeasure with "the guy" but to totally discredit an entire company who makes some of the best bows out there (notice i didn't say THE best) is an unfair statement. You seem like an intellegent fella, but you dont seem to understand why this type of whipping post would upset many happy mathews owners. You get very defensive and sheepishly reply 'oh, i was mearly doing a public service of sorts by informing the misinformed about a potential problem with this company'. BS! you are bashing mathews and you know it. You have already gone out of your way to bad mouth this company. I know you've heard hundreds of analogies already, but once, our family had money down on a car at a local chevy dealer. They sold it out from under us because they found someone who would pay more for it. Would it make sense if i stood on a mountain a shouted "dont buy a chevy, for godsakkes!!" NO, GM couldn't control every action made by its certified dealer, just as mathews cant be mom to every mathews shop out there. Its not there fault that the guy is gouging prices, is it?? And you expect them to overturn a policy for you? maybe you should've checked into the mathews policy before you purchased the bow and you might come to the realization that mathews is in the right and you will have to get over it. Go ahead and buy whatever bow you want to bro, but dont tell me to not buy a mathews!


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## ex-wolverine

*Name one top bow company who will!!!*



Lordform said:


> I will say for the last time. Mathews makes excellent bows- however, Mathews customer service and their no -ship- simple -parts policy is horrible. If a person wants a great bow with poor customer service, Mathews is the place.


Hoyt wont, Bowtech wont, so who will then???


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## Lordform

zmaxgod said:


> Lordform, I've read through the pages of nonsense that you have created by stating "dont buy a mathews" And I can empathize with your displeasure with "the guy" but to totally discredit an entire company who makes some of the best bows out there (notice i didn't say THE best) is an unfair statement. You seem like an intellegent fella, but you dont seem to understand why this type of whipping post would upset many happy mathews owners. You get very defensive and sheepishly reply 'oh, i was mearly doing a public service of sorts by informing the misinformed about a potential problem with this company'. BS! you are bashing mathews and you know it. You have already gone out of your way to bad mouth this company. I know you've heard hundreds of analogies already, but once, our family had money down on a car at a local chevy dealer. They sold it out from under us because they found someone who would pay more for it. Would it make sense if i stood on a mountain a shouted "dont buy a chevy, for godsakkes!!" NO, GM couldn't control every action made by its certified dealer, just as mathews cant be mom to every mathews shop out there. Its not there fault that the guy is gouging prices, is it?? And you expect them to overturn a policy for you? maybe you should've checked into the mathews policy before you purchased the bow and you might come to the realization that mathews is in the right and you will have to get over it. Go ahead and buy whatever bow you want to bro, but dont tell me to not buy a mathews!


I have an '03 Silverado Z71 ext cab sitting in my driveway right now....and dont buy a Mathews.


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## parkerbows

I really think if you have a good dealer nearby this whole thing is a non issue. The dealer I go to sells mathews and bowtech and I get everything from him and to be honest I don't think I would know if I was being charged an extra $20. I will say this as far as bowtech they will sell some parts directly to a customer because they told me they would over the phone. Draw modules and strings for sure and I believe axles and a miscellaneous parts kit, maybe more but that's all I know of for sure..


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## Lordform

parkerbows said:


> I really think if you have a good dealer nearby this whole thing is a non issue. The dealer I go to sells mathews and bowtech and I get everything from him and to be honest I don't think I would know if I was being charged an extra $20. I will say this as far as bowtech they will sell some parts directly to a customer because they told me they would over the phone. Draw modules and strings for sure and I believe axles and a miscellaneous parts kit, maybe more but that's all I know of for sure..



Right.....and Mathews will even ship strings and cables....THE MOST IMPoRTANT PARTS OF A BOW!!! But they won't ship a bolt on piece like a roller guard? 

When I get a price from soneone on something, I check online, call other stores, etc....I always want to know if it can be gotten cheaper just so, if nothing else, I know who I am dealing with and how to deal with them. It's the poker player in me. But this isnt about the dealer. It is about Mathews apathy and decison to forego good customer service, in my experience.

Look slike I may be chsking into Bowtech!! LOL thanks Parker


----------



## Hoyt Dude

Come on Guys you haven’t even broke 300 yet and you are losing you wind.


----------



## zmaxgod

Lordform said:


> I have an '03 pewter Silverado Z71 ext cab sitting in my driveway right now....and dont buy a Mathews.


Hmmm....didn't seem to understand what i was getting at, but i kinda figgured that. Geez man, if you didn't spend all day on AT and worked once in a while, you might be able to upgrade to the 04! :teeth:


----------



## Lordform

zmaxgod said:


> Hmmm....didn't seem to understand what i was getting at, but i kinda figgured that. Geez man, if you didn't spend all day on AT and worked once in a while, you might be able to upgrade to the 04! :teeth:



I got what you were saying and replied to the parts that mattered.

I love my truck and want it paid OFF! No '04's, '05's or '06's for me


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## muzzlebrake

*Never again will I buy a Matthews bow*

I been bowhunting since 1968 and have owned and shot just about every thing there is except a Matthews. Well this year I bought a new bow, a Matthews Switchback. Paid retail price. Supposedly this was the bestest hottest thing going. All I can say is I will never buy another one. 
This bow will probably last me for the rest of my life. It is the smoothest, quietest, sweetest shootin bow I have ever owned or shot. Over 3000 arrows have been shot from it now and it is still perfect. Not even a string stretch. Set at 69 lbs(I never like to max em out) it draws like it's 55lbs and at 59yrs old I can hold it for a full minute without shaking too bad to miss at 20yds. Bash who ya want, buy what you want. I know what I got and I know it's quality even though it is my first Matthews. It ain't as fast as my back-up Hoyt but is more accurate and way way more easy to shoot a hunnert arrows of practice. I Also know it will last me till I'm all done, then my kids can fight over it


----------



## zmaxgod

muzzlebrake said:


> I been bowhunting since 1968 and have owned and shot just about every thing there is except a Matthews. Well this year I bought a new bow, a Matthews Switchback. Paid retail price. Supposedly this was the bestest hottest thing going. All I can say is I will never buy another one.
> This bow will probably last me for the rest of my life. It is the smoothest, quietest, sweetest shootin bow I have ever owned or shot. Over 3000 arrows have been shot from it now and it is still perfect. Not even a string stretch. Set at 69 lbs(I never like to max em out) it draws like it's 55lbs and at 59yrs old I can hold it for a full minute without shaking too bad to miss at 20yds. Bash who ya want, buy what you want. I know what I got and I know it's quality even though it is my first Matthews. It ain't as fast as my back-up Hoyt but is more accurate and way way more easy to shoot a hunnert arrows of practice. I Also know it will last me till I'm all done, then my kids can fight over it


sounds good to me!! I love my mathews too!!! I shoot a '99 zmax and its still cherry, still shoots like a dream. I am thinking about upgrading, now, thanks to this post, i have made up my mind. I will definitely buy a new switchback. Does anyone else love chipmunks christmas songs??


----------



## Treestalker

Lf in response to your response to mine I must say you are the total idiot that you have made yourself out to be.Somebody who can down a company for the sole fact of not being able to get a part mailed to them is childish.Just by the foolish manner that you respond to a post tells me you are nothing more than a momma's boy's who can't get your way.You have not and never will fool me by saying you are a business man.Your response to every post that does not agree with you tells me you are a minor child in desperate need of attention.Since Mom and dad are not there I would suggest you turn to the state and seek help.Still again if you are a man{which I say your not} you don't have the balls to confront the store owner.Don't try to justify that there is no need when in fact that was what started your whole immature rant.Is it not true that if you got what you wanted in the first place this whole thread would not be here?Yes I believe so.So like I said in my orignal post YOUR JUST A SPOILED LITTLE BRAT WHO DID NOT GET HIS WAY..........BOOOWHOOO.......Get a life you moron


----------



## sagecreek

Cut out the personal attacks now! 

There is no need for that now or ever!


----------



## HV Bowman

*Treestalker*

You talk about others maturity and then go on to call those people names in a immature manner. Your not proving anything but that you need to do some growing up yourself. If you can't make your point in a logical manner, calling names isn't going to make it for you. It will only bring other people down on your head. THINK before you start another post.


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## HellBender

sagecreek said:


> Cut out the personal attacks now!
> 
> There is no need for that now or ever!


Bah, that just shows the level of maturity that these people stoop too, and the multiple personalities that they take on when they are *hiding* behind a PC.

Hence.....


> So like I said in my orignal post YOUR JUST A SPOILED LITTLE BRAT WHO DID NOT GET HIS WAY..........BOOOWHOOO.......Get a life you moron


----------



## Lordform

Treestalker said:


> Lf in response to your response to mine I must say you are the total idiot that you have made yourself out to be.Somebody who can down a company for the sole fact of not being able to get a part mailed to them is childish.Just by the foolish manner that you respond to a post tells me you are nothing more than a momma's boy's who can't get your way.You have not and never will fool me by saying you are a business man.Your response to every post that does not agree with you tells me you are a minor child in desperate need of attention.Since Mom and dad are not there I would suggest you turn to the state and seek help.Still again if you are a man{which I say your not} you don't have the balls to confront the store owner.Don't try to justify that there is no need when in fact that was what started your whole immature rant.Is it not true that if you got what you wanted in the first place this whole thread would not be here?Yes I believe so.So like I said in my orignal post YOUR JUST A SPOILED LITTLE BRAT WHO DID NOT GET HIS WAY..........BOOOWHOOO.......Get a life you moron



Thanks. I needed that. Now can I have a little more on the other side, Please? Super! Thanks again!

Please allow me the opportunity to rebutt.....I will use the words of the prinicipal from Billy Madison: " Mr. Treestalker, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points."

Just for fun, I will also include a mini psychology lesson.....when someone resorts to speaking as far away from the point as you have, as well as personal attacks such as you have made, it is a clear sign that that person is raising the white flag. The fact that you posted such a reply shows me that every point you thought you were making was blown out of th water and you have nothing left to work with so you resort to the most primitive form of arguing in existence- name calling. I believe that is on the level of kindergartners so I am not sure you are in the position to comment on the maturity of others.


----------



## Myk

bry2476 said:


> Sounds like Myk is mad because the big bad company will not sell to him.  I am very impressed with your ability to find worthless articles and paste into these forums. You are a asset to archery talk. Your liberal psycho babble is refreshing and informative. Lets call John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Barbara Boxer and see if they can help us out. I love this stuff. :teeth:


I'm a jeweler not an archery shop, brainiac.
I still fail to see where I said "Mathews is a monopoly". 
I can imagine that you think that's what the quote said, maybe you should find someone to read it to you since it's obvious you can't understand the difference. Maybe you could have them read you some of the different legal definitions of what constitutes a monopoly while you're at it.
Those "worthless articles" were from the FTC, DOJ, law schools and legal news.

I've learned to expect this type of clouding of the issues from fanboys. That's exactly what the fanboys have been doing with Lordform and what you're doing with me. If you claim we said something that we didn't long enough people will believe it.

The only time I've experienced this type of protectionism the store I was working for was on the receiving end. I thought it was a little fishy then too. I thought that because it was for the same reason, protection from competition.

BTW, you're the one who wants laws to be ignored for businesses you like but want them left on the books to go against businesses you don't like, just like a good little liberal Democrat.
I'm a Libertarian and would gladly remove these laws, but for now they are there and should be followed.



> Hoyt wont, Bowtech wont, so who will then???


Wrong. Bowtech may if you don't have a dealer within 50 miles. At least that's what I've seen on different dealer's websites. But that's for bows, they may be more lenient for parts.


----------



## archerdad

well i guess that leaves one thing to do.. buy a mathews and make everyone in the world mad... hee hee...

good grief guys..


----------



## Keenedge

Outstanding post. I agree fully with the people who mention the bandwagoning just because it says Mathews, it must be good. I even saw some guy who had a tattoo on his arm that said Mathews. Is that nuts or what!? This bandwagoning is what made Mathews the great company it is now. So good they dont have to pay much attention to customers, they will buy a Mathews bow anyway. I am so glad I read these forums. I have learned a lot on AT about what works, what doesn't, and customer service. I wont be falling into that Mathews trap. Thanks for the warning. I am tired of unethical dealings. 

I was not really in the market for a new bow anyway, probably not for a few years at least, but I will be sure to let buddies know and people I associate with the cost of components for a Mathews as well as what to expect thereafter. Thanks.


----------



## plstrns

*Still unsure*

I'm sure this was covered, but was this $20 over Retail? or $20 more than someone else? I couldn't find that fact, sorry. 
Assuming this price was > listed retail?


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## stringshoota

*mathews problem*

Lordform you seem to be pretty wise I have never heard anyone use the word (exponentially). I had to look it up in dictionary. Mathews are made in wisconsin(The dairy state).Their bows are a little to expensive for my budjet.Why don't you just call customer service and ask them to send you some cheese from wisc.Would that make you happy?


----------



## Lordform

stringshoota said:


> Lordform you seem to be pretty wise I have never heard anyone use the word (exponentially). I had to look it up in dictionary. Mathews are made in wisconsin(The dairy state).Their bows are a little to expensive for my budjet.Why don't you just call customer service and ask them to send you some cheese from wisc.Would that make you happy?


I know this is probably meant as a jab, but it still very funny LMAO.

They need to hold onto the cheese and give it to their decimated football team......only with the power of cheese will they be able to heal and start winning games again.


----------



## ewarchery

Dean Lawter,

In reference to HD ... If Mathews dealers sold at MSRP you would really hear screaming on this forum.

It boils down to market, cost, margin, service, staffing and needing to balance all of those and still stay in business. Many have made the assumption that the dealer was over charging for a part. He may in fact have been charging what would be correct for the part in question.

The reality may be that the other dealer was under charging. He may have minimal overhead, a spouse who has a job which takes care of his medical insurance, or even retirement income from another previous job. In this case, he can affort a lesser margin than someone who is doing this as their only income and for a living.


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## ijimmy

> they were both completely apathetic and acted as though Mathews, for the most part, does not need my business.


And that is just one reason why they dont have my business .


----------



## Lordform

ewarchery said:


> Dean Lawter,
> 
> In reference to HD ... If Mathews dealers sold at MSRP you would really hear screaming on this forum.
> 
> It boils down to market, cost, margin, service, staffing and needing to balance all of those and still stay in business. Many have made the assumption that the dealer was over charging for a part. He may in fact have been charging what would be correct for the part in question.
> 
> The reality may be that the other dealer was under charging. He may have minimal overhead, a spouse who has a job which takes care of his medical insurance, or even retirement income from another previous job. In this case, he can affort a lesser margin than someone who is doing this as their only income and for a living.


This is a very good point and one that offers a different perspective. However, Jet Outdoors is not only routinely overpriced on everything, they are the largest South Florida outdoors shop beyond Bass Pro Shops. They sell everything from bows to guns to gear, and have a working staff of at least 5 people on the floor at any time.

My problem is more with Mathews policy which has the customer last and poor customer service.


----------



## Buckster2000

Let me just ask this. What if MAthews answer would have been Yes I will send you out the part for $100 plus shipping. 

What would your complaint be then? 


This is what a lot of companies do...they give the end user a really high price that they know thier re-sellers can beat. What the diffrence I ask?


----------



## N2RCHRY

Geez, I was gonna try and read all the post but couldn't keep up so I'm just gonna jump in here.
My post will be buried in all this craziness BUT I would like to add a couple things. I think I can speak, I live right in the thick of this story!hahaha

All you conspiricy theorists think about the fact that we're talkin' about a COMPOUND BOW! We're not talkin' a toy! I can see Mathews wanting to cover their asses! I can only imagine how many times Mathews has been sued over something as basic as a cable guard issue!

As far as the customer service issue, IT'S A PRO SHOP ONLY BOW! Which means the dealer isn't happy when you come in with a 2nd hand bow. When he's tryin' to pay the rent. Some of you will never get that!

Lordform, do you shoot target archery or just bowhunt? Have we ever shot together? I would love to talk to ya about this if we ever cross paths. PM me if ya want. Im always lookin' for friends to shoot with. Are you gonna shoot the NAFAC shoot in Homestead?

I will say this, sounds like you SHOULD sell the bow. Mathews bows aren't for everyone and if you dislike the company and or their product, it will prob. effect your shooting. Correct that...IT WILL EFFECT your shooting!

Like I said, HOLLA at me. I'd love to talk to ya...Mitch


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## Lordform

Buckster2000 said:


> Let me just ask this. What if MAthews answer would have been Yes I will send you out the part for $100 plus shipping.
> 
> What would your complaint be then?
> 
> 
> This is what a lot of companies do...they give the end user a really high price that they know thier re-sellers can beat. What the diffrence I ask?


I need more details. Otherwise there are too many scenarios I can think of that would sway one way or the other. I do know that, in this circumstance, the only thing that would have kept me from being disappointed (not mad- I don't get mad over this stupid stuff) would be them agreeing to either allow the vendor in Tampa to send the part, or perhaps ask the local vendor to come down in price........they can always offer to give the local guy the part at a discount in order to keep him from losing money. He can still have his % mark up and they would still at least break even on the part, or maybe take a small, minute loss.......A guy I used to work for at a national company always said "Why strain a dollar to save a nickel"......even if they lost a small % (which would be minimal) they would have created instead a post that read " BUY A MATHEWS BOW......CUSTOMER SERVICE IS AWESOME", and had the 6k people that have viewed this post feelling warm about their company instead of, at the very least, thinkning there may be a problem.......instead, they took the wrong way out.

I am wondering, why hasnt anyone mentioned this? Why have people been so happy to bash me and my LEGITIMATE complaint, which is completely comical, but not mention this easy answer to a problem?

Anyway, I am sorry but it would hard to honestly answer your question given their parameters, or ambiguity.


----------



## Lordform

N2RCHRY said:


> Geez, I was gonna try and read all the post but couldn't keep up so I'm just gonna jump in here.
> My post will be buried in all this craziness BUT I would like to add a couple things. I think I can speak, I live right in the thick of this story!hahaha
> 
> All you conspiricy theorists think about the fact that we're talkin' about a COMPOUND BOW! We're not talkin' a toy! I can see Mathews wanting to cover their asses! I can only imagine how many times Mathews has been sued over something as basic as a cable guard issue!
> 
> As far as the customer service issue, IT'S A PRO SHOP ONLY BOW! Which means the dealer isn't happy when you come in with a 2nd hand bow. When he's tryin' to pay the rent. Some of you will never get that!
> 
> Lordform, do you shoot target archery or just bowhunt? Have we ever shot together? I would love to talk to ya about this if we ever cross paths. PM me if ya want. Im always lookin' for friends to shoot with. Are you gonna shoot the NAFAC shoot in Homestead?
> 
> I will say this, sounds like you SHOULD sell the bow. Mathews bows aren't for everyone and if you dislike the company and or their product, it will prob. effect your shooting. Correct that...IT WILL EFFECT your shooting!
> 
> Like I said, HOLLA at me. I'd love to talk to ya...Mitch


Mitch, the liability thing would sound OK if they were not willing to ship strings and cables....but they are. Liability is NOT an issue.

I would love to meet you and either shoot, hunt or bass fish. I'll PM you.

I can't get rid of the bow. I love my friend with all my heart and am a sentmentalist. So I am going to suck it up and keep it.....i never said the bow was not excellent!


----------



## KevinC

Ive been following this thread for a bit and must confess that I have been quite amused. The wit of Lordform is quite funny. I truly think you missed your calling as a standup comedian. Your responses to various posts remind me of Don Rickles. I certainly understand your decision not to endorse your local Mathews dealer, but the whole company? What if you lived near Tampa and had only dealt with the shop that has better priceing. This thread would'nt be here. Obviously you bought a Mathews because you either believed the hype about the bow, or you shot it and truly admired the performance. I believe the latter.

I have a real strong Mathews/Hoyt dealer that I dealt with on my recent purchase of a new SB. I could have gone to an even closer dealer, but based on several of my friends endorsements, I chose to drive a bit further. So far so good. I even returned it after a week to have the cam swapped out for a different draw length module. No charge, no problem, glad to do it, anything else just come on in. This is my first Mathews bow. Too many archers in our area shoot them. Too many rant and rave about them. I've owned or shot most major manufacturers bows in the past 33 yrs Ive been involved in archery. The failure of any of them has been practically nil. Its been my experience that all things mechanized break eventually though and I trust Mathews will take care of the problems that may arise just like Hoyt did several yrs ago when my bow needed a limb. I trust that the longstanding dealer that I dealt with will continue to be in business because they have excellent customer service. Hard to get that everywhere.

Pricing on any bow make or model will vary from location to location. The same for parts. Most cases, parts are where the real money is made. Thats the dealers priceing policys, Im sure there is a bottom dollar limit to prevent under selling the competition. All I know is every shop I called (3) had the same bow price. But on accessories, prices vary at each shop. So, pick your dealer.

Currently Im loving my SB, smoothest bow I have ever shot. The man designed a winner. Sorry Lordform, I truly believe your beef is with your local dealer. You can buy the part needed locally, he'll get it for you. All this is over a local pricing issue. Its too bad things couldnt have been worked out. Couldnt have been your wit and charm huh?


----------



## Lordform

KevinC said:


> Ive been following this thread for a bit and must confess that I have been quite amused. The wit of Lordform is quite funny. I truly think you missed your calling as a standup comedian. Your responses to various posts remind me of Don Rickles. I certainly understand your decision not to endorse your local Mathews dealer, but the whole company? What if you lived near Tampa and had only dealt with the shop that has better priceing. This thread would'nt be here. Obviously you bought a Mathews because you either believed the hype about the bow, or you shot it and truly admired the performance. I believe the latter.
> 
> I have a real strong Mathews/Hoyt dealer that I dealt with on my recent purchase of a new SB. I could have gone to an even closer dealer, but based on several of my friends endorsements, I chose to drive a bit further. So far so good. I even returned it after a week to have the cam swapped out for a different draw length module. No charge, no problem, glad to do it, anything else just come on in. This is my first Mathews bow. Too many archers in our area shoot them. Too many rant and rave about them. I've owned or shot most major manufacturers bows in the past 33 yrs Ive been involved in archery. The failure of any of them has been practically nil. Its been my experience that all things mechanized break eventually though and I trust Mathews will take care of the problems that may arise just like Hoyt did several yrs ago when my bow needed a limb. I trust that the longstanding dealer that I dealt with will continue to be in business because they have excellent customer service. Hard to get that everywhere.
> 
> Pricing on any bow make or model will vary from location to location. The same for parts. Most cases, parts are where the real money is made. Thats the dealers priceing policys, Im sure there is a bottom dollar limit to prevent under selling the competition. All I know is every shop I called (3) had the same bow price. But on accessories, prices vary at each shop. So, pick your dealer.
> 
> Currently Im loving my SB, smoothest bow I have ever shot. The man designed a winner. Sorry Lordform, I truly believe your beef is with your local dealer. You can buy the part needed locally, he'll get it for you. All this is over a local pricing issue. Its too bad things couldnt have been worked out. Couldnt have been your wit and charm huh?


Finally someone is able to see through the text and to the sattire! LOL 

This isnt about pricing. It is about a customer last policy and horrible customer service.

I have no problem with the bow itself. It is everything it is supposed to be. Customer service is always the dynamic that can make smiles into frowns
.

My wit and charm?? Are you kidding? I am every dad's dream!!! lol


----------



## Buckster2000

LF I see what you are saying, but since I was not thier when you made the call to the dealer and what he/she said to you and why they wouldn't entertain the idea of coming down on thier prices, nor was I thier why you spoke to MAthews. You also have to understand that for those of us who have had great dealing with MAthews don't understand or phanthom what your saying. 

I can assure you it's not just Mathews shooters who are cult like, this can be said for just about all of the population that owns bow. No matter what brand. 

Wat everyone is left with is to digest what you said, and the manner in which you said it. You never told us exaclty what was said by either Jet or Mathews only little drivels here and there when you were pushed to do so.

I am sorry you didn't have a good experiance with Mathews. But you are trying to sway others to your side of not buying MAthews. And thats not gonna happen to those of use who have not and problems with them, sorry but, it just won't.

Think of it this way If I said at the top of a post LF is the most annoying over opionated person I've ever delt with on a forum I'll never communicate with him again.

What do you think will happen. You'll have guys/gals who said I agree I was discussing with him and he wouldn't listen. Then you'll ahve guys/gals who will say I never found that to be the case, he has always be kind and courtious in his responses. And then you'll have those who say to me Buckster you don't know anything your the one with the problem, and I don't believe what your saying no matter what. And I should hope other would say oh Buckster you are so right...your the best poster ever!

My point is this you had to expect that you would get some type of flack from this type of post. If I've never had a problem with a company I enjoy doing business with and I voice my opinion, it the same as you doing you post on dissatisfaction of that company. That's life not everybody has the same experiences as everyone else.

That does not make me a cultist, I simply make me a happy consumer from a company I have yet to have trouble with. Look I don't like the compaines that offer senoir citizen discounts...like Mcdonalds thats BS age discrimination...I can't help it that I'm not old yet. But it is McDonalds policy and they are private company ( meaning not govermenent owned)

Take care!


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## Lordform

Buckster2000 said:


> LF I see what you are saying, but since I was not thier when you made the call to the dealer and what he/she said to you and why they wouldn't entertain the idea of coming down on thier prices, nor was I thier why you spoke to MAthews. You also have to understand that for those of us who have had great dealing with MAthews don't understand or phanthom what your saying.
> 
> I can assure you it's not just Mathews shooters who are cult like, this can be said for just about all of the population that owns bow. No matter what brand.
> 
> Wat everyone is left with is to digest what you said, and the manner in which you said it. You never told us exaclty what was said by either Jet or Mathews only little drivels here and there when you were pushed to do so.
> 
> I am sorry you didn't have a good experiance with Mathews. But you are trying to sway others to your side of not buying MAthews. And thats not gonna happen to those of use who have not and problems with them, sorry but, it just won't.
> 
> Think of it this way If I said at the top of a post LF is the most annoying over opionated person I've ever delt with on a forum I'll never communicate with him again.
> 
> What do you think will happen. You'll have guys/gals who said I agree I was discussing with him and he wouldn't listen. Then you'll ahve guys/gals who will say I never found that to be the case, he has always be kind and courtious in his responses. And then you'll have those who say to me Buckster you don't know anything your the one with the problem, and I don't believe what your saying no matter what. And I should hope other would say oh Buckster you are so right...your the best poster ever!
> 
> My point is this you had to expect that you would get some type of flack from this type of post. If I've never had a problem with a company I enjoy doing business with and I voice my opinion, it the same as you doing you post on dissatisfaction of that company. That's life not everybody has the same experiences as everyone else.
> 
> That does not make me a cultist, I simply make me a happy consumer from a company I have yet to have trouble with. Look I don't like the compaines that offer senoir citizen discounts...like Mcdonalds thats BS age discrimination...I can't help it that I'm not old yet. But it is McDonalds policy and they are private company ( meaning not govermenent owned)
> 
> Take care!


This is a very well articulated and coherent argument/point. It should be posted right after my initial post so everyone can see a perspective from both sides.

That said, Im right and you are wrong


----------



## Josh Michaelis

Baaaaa, Baaaaaa, 


this thread is a sheep stampeed:teeth:


----------



## Buckster2000

Lordform said:


> This is a very well articulated and coherent argument/point. It should be posted right after my initial post so everyone can see a perspective from both sides.
> 
> That said, Im right and you are wrong



Nope sorry....I'm right. I'm always right! You know you might be right...you being a Mathews bow owner and all:tongue: But then I own 3 Mathews so once agian it back to me being right!:thumbs_up


----------



## Lordform

Buckster2000 said:


> Nope sorry....I'm right. I'm always right! You know you might be right...you being a Mathews bow owner and all:tongue: But then I own 3 Mathews so once agian it back to me being right!:thumbs_up



LOL ok.....good enough. I am glad you finally agree that I am right and you are wrong--J/k


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## msbo2004

*Your post would be removed from their board*

You can't say anything negative about them at all over there on their board.They will remove your post even if it is done professionally.I made a comment on a post that I had heard some negative things from several different dealers and THEIR own posters asked to to share with them what I had heard and when I did They couldn't take it.I guress Mathews has never wronged anyone or done anything shady.Man, the blinders those people wear.I can personally back up what your saying.I will never buy another Mathews bow.I am done with them.Looks like Hoyt or Bowtech for me.I want to do business with a company that appreciates my business instead of one that thinks I owe them something.Geeesh


----------



## bry2476

Myk said:


> I'm a jeweler not an archery shop, brainiac.


From a previous post by Myk



Myk said:


> *Q: I own a retail clothing store and the Brand Company refuses to sell me any of its line of clothes*. These clothes are very popular in my area, so this policy is hurting my business. Isn’t it illegal for Brand to refuse to sell to me?


I still fail to see where I said "Mathews is a monopoly". 
I can imagine that you think that's what the quote said, maybe you should find someone to read it to you since it's obvious you can't understand the difference. Maybe you could have them read you some of the different legal definitions of what constitutes a monopoly while you're at it.
Those "worthless articles" were from the FTC, DOJ, law schools and legal news.

I've learned to expect this type of clouding of the issues from fanboys. That's exactly what the fanboys have been doing with Lordform and what you're doing with me. If you claim we said something that we didn't long enough people will believe it.

The only time I've experienced this type of protectionism the store I was working for was on the receiving end. I thought it was a little fishy then too. I thought that because it was for the same reason, protection from competition.

BTW, you're the one who wants laws to be ignored for businesses you like but want them left on the books to go against businesses you don't like, just like a good little liberal Democrat.
I'm a Libertarian and would gladly remove these laws, but for now they are there and should be followed.


Wrong. Bowtech may if you don't have a dealer within 50 miles. At least that's what I've seen on different dealer's websites. But that's for bows, they may be more lenient for parts.[/QUOTE]

I never said that you were a archery dealer. I can't see where I said that. You even put in something about owning a clothing store, now you are saying that you own a jewelry store. Keep up with your storyline. I have the archery business.


Next, I am not a fanboy. I own a Archery Research :mg: , I am considering a Bowtech or Mathews this year. I have owned a Mathews and never had to use there customer service department.

Next, How do you want to spin it, Post 24 on this thread



Myk said:


> *Their company policy is to set up monopolies (as far as the consumer is concerned).*This breeds stores who gouge because they can.
> If they are going to limit a store's competition to protect the store they should set the store's prices to protect their customer. But it sounds like they don't care about their customer.
> 
> How long do you think one of the big 3 auto makers would get away with it if they said only one car dealer for that make within 300 miles?


Myk, so what exactly do you mean when you say *"Their company policy is to set up monopolies"* This is the exact post. Lets hear it Myk.

As far as what Bowtech and "may or may not do" there is a stipulation. Mathews may have the same. But LF lives within 50 miles of a Mathews dealer. So it wouldn't apply. The reason that your little articles are worthless is because they do not aply to this argument. You are wrong. I think that I will start a poll.

"Is Mathews a monopoly?" Will see what happens


----------



## Myk

Bry, I explained the DOJ's position on what constitutes a monopoly and only allowing one store to serve an area with a product may constitute a monopoly. But like I said, since there are other bow makers that alone probably wouldn't be enough. But when you add in the other practices it might.

Many archery manufacturers set up monopolies in areas by limiting who may sell their product in that area. They further that monopoly by not allowing their parts to be shipped.
Whether that constitutes a monopoly or not (because there are other bows out there) it does constitute protectionism.

If they only allow one Mathews dealer in Nashville, that dealer has a monopoly on Mathews. That's fine as long as nobody else wants to sell Mathews. If another dealer comes along and wants to compete by selling Mathews and they deny him that is Mathews setting up a monopoly in Nashville.
If they allowed that competition this thread would likely not exist. If they allowed that competition my participation in this thread would definitely not exist.

The reason you think my posts from law sites doesn't apply is because it's painfully obvious that you are not able to comprehend what you read.
Start your poll, it has NOTHING to do with what I'm saying. Mathews being a monopoly are your words, typical liberal debate tactic.


----------



## Buckster2000

msbo2004 said:


> You can't say anything negative about them at all over there on their board.They will remove your post even if it is done professionally.I made a comment on a post that I had heard some negative things from several different dealers and THEIR own posters asked to to share with them what I had heard and when I did They couldn't take it.I guress Mathews has never wronged anyone or done anything shady.Man, the blinders those people wear.I can personally back up what your saying.I will never buy another Mathews bow.I am done with them.Looks like Hoyt or Bowtech for me.I want to do business with a company that appreciates my business instead of one that thinks I owe them something.Geeesh



I don't think it's only Mathews on the negative post of manufactures forum sights....Hoyt did the same thing to one of my friends who posted on their sight, and go to PSE sight and just make even a slightly negative thing....they will shut you down ASAP. Almost as fast as you hit the post button they wipe if off!


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## rudyd66

Ok, since you had problems with Jet Outdoors, I won't buy another mathews!


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## Lordform

rudyd66 said:


> Ok, since you had problems with Jet Outdoors, I won't buy another mathews!


Sounds great. You read the post pefectly.

(Sarcasm meets sarcasm)


----------



## stringshoota

*second hand mathews*

Lordform; I never realized till reading further this bow was not bought new.Why don't you do what I would have done.Remove that high tec roller and fancy brackets and drill and tap the riser for a standard $8.00 cable guard and a $6.oo teflon slide.Then all this time you spent reading all these posts could have been spent out shooting your mathews.Must be some season open in florida.How bout them alligators?


----------



## stringshoota

*edit my last post late*

Lordform
I never watch much football enless the vikings are on a winning streak and they are not doing much better than green bay.But some of them did have some fun on lake minnetonka.Thats a metro lake thats got everything million dollar homes,milfoil,sailing regattas,milfoil,bass fishing contests,milfoil,drive up bars,milfoil,baluga beaches,milfoil,and you can see lots of racial diversity under every bridge, fishing in milfoil.


----------



## Lordform

stringshoota said:


> Lordform; I never realized till reading further this bow was not bought new.Why don't you do what I would have done.Remove that high tec roller and fancy brackets and drill and tap the riser for a standard $8.00 cable guard and a $6.oo teflon slide.Then all this time you spent reading all these posts could have been spent out shooting your mathews.Must be some season open in florida.How bout them alligators?


This isnt a normal second hand situation. My friend bought the bow and used it once. He shot it about 30 times to get it sighted in. He thought it was hexed so was getting rid of it at the same time I was lookig to get a new one. He talked me into buying it from him and I got it at a deal. If i get near that thing with a drill people will die or lose vision.

I prefer to wrestle gators while wearing a thong- no bows needed. It's my thing.

If I could find somewhere to hunt here in FL I would be there every minute I am away from work.


----------



## Lordform

stringshoota said:


> Lordform
> I never watch much football enless the vikings are on a winning streak and they are not doing much better than green bay.But some of them did have some fun on lake minnetonka.Thats a metro lake thats got everything million dollar homes,milfoil,sailing regattas,milfoil,bass fishing contests,milfoil,drive up bars,milfoil,baluga beaches,milfoil,and you can see lots of racial diversity under every bridge, fishing in milfoil.


So I am gathering that the milfoil really standds out huh? lol

Too bad you guys lost randy and now daunte.....even coach tice has knee problem now.

Next year....well, next year doesnt promise much for you guys, sorry.

But you have Matt Kenseth who has has another decent year and will probbaly end up 7th or 8th in pts.

But no matter what, you have brats......nothing beats beer and brats.


----------



## zmaxgod

*LF, its water under the bridge*

I'm happy with how this all turned out...just a few fellas sitting around chatting and having fun. LF, at first i was in a fit of rage with you, but after reading some of your posts you seem like a first class. I liked your gater wrastling in thong statement too. lol.... By the way, hows that 03 pewter chevy treatin ya? so, now the only query left is, what bow will you go with next????


----------



## Dean Lawter

*ewarchery*

So comparing Mathew to Harley Davidson is a poor comparison! Still Mathews tells dealers they should not sell for less than certain prices, they should in turn tell them not to exceed. I say if money is to tight for Mathews and Harley's, get the next best thing. I also know that the last archery shop I worked at we got a Martin pro dealership, they told us if we could not sell bows a MSRP that we need not carry that line. 
I made no assumption as to the price! I am merely saying in your reference to HD how their product line works, appears to at least be fairly regulated. The way I see it, the Mathews structures their dealer locations the dealers should be able to run a proffitable buisness that can serve the customer. I'm not trying to see anyone hold down the little man, but I am tired of the rinky dink shops who stock nothing, want to order you what you want, and then complain that society has begun to deal more and more with the like of Bass Pro! Not trying to argue here or bash your post, but I think the success of Harley Davidson, since the employees took over, is proof that people will pay for a great set up. It is great to walk into Spartanburg, Greenville, Myrtle Beach and other shops that I have visited and BUY what you want without having to order all the time. Sure you may have to order on occasion, seldom have I had to. Walk into a Honda, Yamaha or Suzuki shop and ask for some custom parts or OEM. You may be able to get a spark plug! What's great about going from one HD shop to the next is, I don't have to worry about shop gouging.
Even still, I do not know why LF did not get his part in Tampa and it amazes me as to how this thread stays alive. Lot's of opinions out there. That's good, I think it helps us grow.


----------



## soccert

*mathew bashing*

"The problem is Mathews has a policy that prohibits its dealers from sending out merchandise to end users; even parts. The guy in my area knows this and is exploiting it."

You want Mathews to break their policy on your behalf over $20.00?
Lets at least be realistic and try to put things in perspective. I would say the problem is with your dealer and that is were you have the power to make a decision by going to another proshop. If he is gouching customers too long he may not be around very long who knows. If he is charging 20 dollars more could this possibly include labor? This is like going to a auto dealer and that dealer charges more than the next dealer and now it is the manufacturer that gets the bashing. I have had great service and not so great service from Mathews but overall pleased with their product and service. They have always taken care of any warranty issue in a professional manner when I let my dealer handle it for me and that is what they are trying to do, let proshops play a roll.


----------



## Lordform

zmaxgod said:


> I'm happy with how this all turned out...just a few fellas sitting around chatting and having fun. LF, at first i was in a fit of rage with you, but after reading some of your posts you seem like a first class. I liked your gater wrastling in thong statement too. lol.... By the way, hows that 03 pewter chevy treatin ya? so, now the only query left is, what bow will you go with next????


My mistake was my ignorance. I didnt know that people were so attached to their bow companies. I only wanted to relay an experience because customer service is very important to me.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them. I may have made a few rude comments, but I assure you that if anyone were to hear them out of my mouth they would not have sounded so harsh, in fact I was laughing while typing most things. I realized earlier today that you people dont know me so I was coming across as an arrogant person but the truth is, it was all busting balls.

Anyhoo, again, I appreciate the kind words. Your leaving a post like this one shows that you have nothing to prove. Thats an OK guy in my book anyday, even if we dont agree.


----------



## Lordform

soccert said:


> "The problem is Mathews has a policy that prohibits its dealers from sending out merchandise to end users; even parts. The guy in my area knows this and is exploiting it."
> 
> You want Mathews to break their policy on your behalf over $20.00?
> Lets at least be realistic and try to put things in perspective. I would say the problem is with your dealer and that is were you have the power to make a decision by going to another proshop. If he is gouching customers too long he may not be around very long who knows. If he is charging 20 dollars more could this possibly include labor? This is like going to a auto dealer and that dealer charges more than the next dealer and now it is the manufacturer that gets the bashing. I have had great service and not so great service from Mathews but overall pleased with their product and service. They have always taken care of any warranty issue in a professional manner when I let my dealer handle it for me and that is what they are trying to do, let proshops play a roll.



here is the kicker...I actually stopped by there today and talked to the guy ( i still dont want his roller guard) because he is also a hoyt dealer and I am in the market for the new trykon ( if I could just draw one). He charges 95 bucks for that roller guard, but he is charging 749 for the new hoyt....unbelievable thats not a bad price. I could get it 50 bucks cheaper but the shipping will cost that much....I know why he is only charging that muchbut I wont state it because i am DONE arguing about this.

Lets talk deer killin'!


----------



## Les

LF,
You might want to list some specs on your classified ad regarding the LX. Like draw length, poundage, what cam is on it (code), and what string and buss cable is on it. It will greatly help your sale. Any pictures also help the buyer feel better about the deal.


----------



## Lordform

Les said:


> LF,
> You might want to list some specs on your classified ad regarding the LX. Like draw length, poundage, what cam is on it (code), and what string and buss cable is on it. It will greatly help your sale. Any pictures also help the buyer feel better about the deal.


Don't these bows sell themselves? Thats what I gathered from this thread over the last few days lol

Thanks. I have updated the post.


----------



## JO109

move out of FL AND MOVE TO A STATE THAT HAS REAL BOW SHOPS, NOT SEA SHELL SHOPS,, ITS NOT MATHEWS ITS YOUR DEALER,, GO BLAME FORD,, WHEN THEY CAME OUT WITH THE 05 MUSTANG GT AND DEALERS MARKED UP THE STICKER BY 4,000 OR MORE, THATS NOT FORDS FAULT,, LEARN TO THINK BEFORE TYPING,,,


----------



## Keenedge

LF,

Do yourself a favor and get that new Hoyt in a year when the prices are humane. The 07's will be so much better!:ranger:


----------



## Lordform

JO109 said:


> move out of FL AND MOVE TO A STATE THAT HAS REAL BOW SHOPS, NOT SEA SHELL SHOPS,, ITS NOT MATHEWS ITS YOUR DEALER,, GO BLAME FORD,, WHEN THEY CAME OUT WITH THE 05 MUSTANG GT AND DEALERS MARKED UP THE STICKER BY 4,000 OR MORE, THATS NOT FORDS FAULT,, LEARN TO THINK BEFORE TYPING,,,


Florida and South Florida in particular is a sports Mecca. From fishing, to BOWHUNTING, to TARGET ARCHERY,to gunhunting and the *conchshell shot-put*, to the other sports categories, Florida is an epicenter. 

Hey, heres a dealio.....I promise to think before I type if you promise to reciprocate by properly and thoroughly reading a post before replying to it.

Deal? Yeah? SUPER!!

P.S. If you time your dealing at the end of the month or, even better, toward the end of the year, that 4k markup will vanish along with another 2 or so grand :eyebrows:


----------



## Lordform

*Please elabortae*



Keenedge said:


> LF,
> 
> Do yourself a favor and get that new Hoyt in a year when the prices are humane. The 07's will be so much better!:ranger:


Please indulge me by elaborating a bit if you care to. If not, up yours holmes!! 

Just kidding. 

Really though, please clue me in if you dont mind.

Also, how do you like your Bowtech?


----------



## zmaxgod

*werd to yer mutha*

Yeah, why does everyone assume that the next years bow is gonna be the sheeut? I dont get it. call me olde fashioned but i'm shooting a bow that was produced in 1999. Wow dude, that is like, so last century!! it must shoot horrible.


----------



## bhtr3d

Just wondering.....You said you dont want to deal with Jet and Arrowhead is too far in tampa......Just wondering Did you think about Gator in WPB??? Or Southwest in Naples....I do know that they are a little of a drive also. but I think that Gator would be close enough ....

Or had ya ever thought of seeing if someone in tampa or where ever could buy it and mail it to ya ?


----------



## Lordform

bhtr3d said:


> Just wondering.....You said you dont want to deal with Jet and Arrowhead is too far in tampa......Just wondering Did you think about Gator in WPB??? Or Southwest in Naples....I do know that they are a little of a drive also. but I think that Gator would be close enough ....
> 
> Or had ya ever thought of seeing if someone in tampa or where ever could buy it and mail it to ya ?



Naples-- 1 1/2 hours away
WPB-- 1 hour away and even more of a ripoff than Jets.an example...they are charging 799 for an '05 vtec

I have a sister in law in Tampa. Eventually I am going to be dragged to go see her and Ill get it then- IF I keep the bow. I am trying to sell it here and a couple other places. If it doesnt sell in about 4 days I am just gonna keep it and save up for another bow, making this one the 2nd string......but my first string will be like Brett Favre so the LX wont get much playing time.


----------



## machinegun74

LX-second string you must be buying a Switchback then.:thumbs_up


----------



## Lordform

machinegun74 said:


> LX-second string you must be buying a Switchback then.:thumbs_up


Nah...Either an Bowtech allegiance or a Hoyt Trykon


----------



## Keenedge

The Allegiance is something you have to try out. The 05 model in particular. I know there are a few subtle changes between the 05 and 06, but not enough to justify the 200 gap you could put towards a sight and rest. If you really actually want to know, my Allegiance is a deer and elk killer and the arrows always go where they are directed. I can not fathom the idea of getting a new bow already.


----------



## Denfore

*I am not one to bash anything...*

But I must give my .02 here. I have owned two Mathew's bows in the past, a Z-Max and a FeatherMax...both had warranty work done, the Z was in twice. Customer service for the company its self was horrid. Rude, at best. My dealer was even upset with them, so much so that he has since dropped Mathew's products. I sold both bows for fair prices, and have never looked back. I will not own another Mathew's, ever. Customer service must be priority one with a company, or sooner or later the company gets bitten in the behind. Look out, Mathew's...appears to be a few whipped-on cur dogs getting mighty hungry....


----------



## Lordform

Keenedge said:


> The Allegiance is something you have to try out. The 05 model in particular. I know there are a few subtle changes between the 05 and 06, but not enough to justify the 200 gap you could put towards a sight and rest. If you really actually want to know, my Allegiance is a deer and elk killer and the arrows always go where they are directed. I can not fathom the idea of getting a new bow already.


A bowtech dealer around here is charging exact MSRP for the new allecgiance......749. I guess thats not a bad price but if you are saying there isnt a huge difference between the two maybe I will back off for now.


----------



## ghaug

I don't think this a Mathews problem. If the guys is using is standard mark up that he uses for everything then I don't see the problem. I see it all the time when guys go to an archeryshop with a bow that they didn't buy there and then expect them to work on it for free or for very little. Those guys time is worth more than a couple of bucks. I believe your beef should be with Jet Outdoors not Mathews. If you wanted a bow that included a warranty then you should have bought a new bow. Is it fair that Jet Outdoors is making a killing on the part probably not but that is his choice to screw customers over.


----------



## Sagittarius

Boy, this thread makes me glad I have stuck with Bowman and Merlin bows these past few years where I can get what I need from Stewart himself for any Bowman parts I might need or Pinwheel 12 for Merlin parts.  


Sag.


----------



## stringshoota

*batting 300*

Wow when I see this thread hit 300 I just could not resist being 301.
I will throw my 2 cents into the discussion as it has changed a lot with the talk of new bows and prices.
I am the proud owner of 15 pse,s I have 15 and 8 of them are the same model.All of them are tuned. nocked and ready to rock.
I have shot 25 deer in the last 12 yrs with my pse's.Qualified for the national I.B.O shoot in 3 differant state shoots.And have a wall full of I love me trophies.
I have at least 5 awsome bows for what it costs for a new one now a days.I have bought a couple new bows from a couple other name brand companies and parted with them quick cuz I prefered my old models.
I know some will think this is really just worth 2 cents.But if I had that 2 cents from all 300 of the 300 who posted here I could have enough money to buy my 16th PSE.
Yes I am bragin if I am dragin that deer.


----------



## Lordform

*Give me more!*



Keenedge said:


> The Allegiance is something you have to try out. The 05 model in particular. I know there are a few subtle changes between the 05 and 06, but not enough to justify the 200 gap you could put towards a sight and rest. If you really actually want to know, my Allegiance is a deer and elk killer and the arrows always go where they are directed. I can not fathom the idea of getting a new bow already.


Keen,

I went to a Bowtech shop today and tried to get familiar with an allegiance. They said they had on '06 over the phone, but when I got there they did not so I couldnt really do anything.

I have heard that the major differences bewteen last year and this is the cam's adjusability and the function of being able to adjust the valley or shelf. 

Have you picked up and drawn an '06? If so, can you do me a favor and tell me the differences?


----------



## XADDICT

Lordform said:


> Keen,
> 
> I went to a Bowtech shop today and tried to get familiar with an allegiance. They said they had on '06 over the phone, but when I got there they did not so I couldnt really do anything.
> 
> I have heard that the major differences bewteen last year and this is the cam's adj usability and the function of being able to adjust the valley or shelf.
> 
> Have you picked up and drawn an '06? If so, can you do me a favor and tell me the differences?



1. Adjustable draw mods. Also a smooth mod, or speed mod.
2. Totally redesigned riser and limb pockets.
3. Different camo options


I have only shot the smooth mod on this model. I think it's a little better than last years, as far as the power stroke. Smoother. Nice valley with allot of room for adjustment. I've never shot a bow this fast that felt that good during the shot. Very crisp and quiet. No hand shock. I shot it with no stabilizer. :thumbs_up


----------



## Tommy2993

*Trying to help*

Lord Form,

I am currently shooting 3 BowTechs, a 05 Allegiance camo,a 06 Allegiance in
black marble, and a 06 tribute. The major difference in the allegiances are 
the draw modules to change the draw lengh. The modules also come in 2
styles, smooth cam, and fast cam. I shoot the smooth cam, and the draw cycle is about the same as the 05. I do not know how often you trade bows,
but a bow that can be quickly changed and with little expense is always better 
trading material to me. The 05 bows are all over the E word place, that we
do not mention here, and some are in the classifieds here for under $500.00
TYD. Before any one jumps back on the bashing, I was just trying to help
answer his questions,I personally could care less what bow anyone shoots,
as long as you shoot something, there is more of them than us.


----------



## Keenedge

Like I suggested before, you just need to try all of them. If speeds not important to you, the BowTech Justice is plain amazing. I am sure the new Hoyt is nice, as is the ROSS CR34!!! You should look at that bow too. My personal prefs dont mean squat, so try em'! So many good choices out there. But you sound like an intelligent guy, so I will just help you keep this short. Dont take my word for it.


----------



## Lordform

Tommy2993 said:


> Lord Form,
> 
> I am currently shooting 3 BowTechs, a 05 Allegiance camo,a 06 Allegiance in
> black marble, and a 06 tribute. The major difference in the allegiances are
> the draw modules to change the draw lengh. The modules also come in 2
> styles, smooth cam, and fast cam. I shoot the smooth cam, and the draw cycle is about the same as the 05. I do not know how often you trade bows,
> but a bow that can be quickly changed and with little expense is always better
> trading material to me. The 05 bows are all over the E word place, that we
> do not mention here, and some are in the classifieds here for under $500.00
> TYD. Before any one jumps back on the bashing, I was just trying to help
> answer his questions,I personally could care less what bow anyone shoots,
> as long as you shoot something, there is more of them than us.


Thanks. I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond.


----------



## bsizzle

this site is unbelievable.:thumbs_do so glad i found another forum.:thumbs_up


----------



## Doc Holliday

bsizzle said:


> this site is unbelievable.:thumbs_do so glad i found another forum.:thumbs_up



So why did you post??????


----------



## Myk

Doc Holliday said:


> So why did you post??????


He secretly hates his purchase and he wanted to bump the thread up again.


----------



## soccert

*Trykon*

I shot the Trykon this week on several occasion at the local proshop. The bow shoots great but the breakover is rather harsh. I'm sure this will not be an issue once you get a feel for the bow but it will take getting used to, especially shooting 70# on a cold morning after sitting in the stand for a couple hours. But the shot is very smooth!!!


----------



## Roll-Away

*Braggin over What?*



Sagittarius said:


> Boy, this thread makes me glad I have stuck with Bowman and Merlin bows these past few years where I can get what I need from Stewart himself for any Bowman parts I might need or Pinwheel 12 for Merlin parts.
> 
> 
> Sag.


Dude, this thread is about a roller guard that is overpriced by 20 bucks....Bowman cams cost damn near 300 bucks a set. The modules alone cost 100 bucks. If you don't feel like you've been screwed on a Bowman, you won't have any trouble with Mathews or anyone else for that matter.

Stringshoota- 15 PSE's? If it takes that many bows to get through one hunting season...pay an extra 20 for the roller guard, you'll be time and money ahead. :thumbs_up


----------



## gmherps

Slippy Field said:


> This post could be big if its anything like the Bowtech conversation ended up..........................
> 
> Lordform, give ya $50 for your bow? What draw length are you?



I'll give ya $51.


----------



## Doc Holliday

blitzkrieg said:


> oh quit crying! you got the best bow and you probavly did the damage yourself! why should they fix somthing you did yourself! then make the consumer pay more next time! grow up! :thumbs_do


What damage? Where did he say that he wanted them to repair this mythical damage? 

How hard is it to actually READ the post before you start bashing?
*cough sock puppet cough*


----------



## Roll-Away

Doc Holliday said:


> What damage? Where did he say that he wanted them to repair this mythical damage?
> 
> How hard is it to actually READ the post before you start bashing?
> *cough sock puppet cough*



Yeah Dude, you have got to read all 312 previous posts in order to be qualified to post on this thread. Hey Doc, why in the hell did the guy want to buy a roller guard if his wasn't busted? Did he need a back up? Was the bow used?


----------



## Stuck1Buck

*No problem here*



ursonvs said:


> what is wrong with your cable roller that wouldn't put it under warranty?
> 
> next time...take this advice.
> 
> do a search for griv's post on posting etiquette. you might learn a few things from it cause trust me buddy, you just opened a big ole can-o-worms.
> 
> now on with the rest of the 89 posts and 1200 views this things is gonna get cause of you typing before thinking, good job.


I am a mathews shooter and if Lordform has a problem with the company that's fine, I've got thicker skin I guess cause what he stated does not bother me at all. He is advising us as to a potential problem for Mathews shooters and I appreciate the heads up. Thanks Lordform, good post.


----------



## Doc Holliday

Roll-Away said:


> Yeah Dude, you have got to read all 312 previous posts in order to be qualified to post on this thread. Hey Doc, why in the hell did the guy want to buy a roller guard if his wasn't busted? Did he need a back up? Was the bow used?


The answers are all right here. You just have to read.


----------



## Doc Holliday

blitzkrieg said:


> hey doc holygay! you need to grow up and quit using cartoon characters. are you registered in your nieghborhood! if not you better! :tongue:



Wow. Looks like I struck a nerve. 

C'mon. Fill out your profile. Your name and location will suffice.


----------



## Plainsman

Doc Holliday said:


> Wow. Looks like I struck a nerve.



Or he forgot to take his Prozac this morning.


----------



## Doc Holliday

My apologies blitz. I didnt realize how hard it must be trying to read through crossed eyes.

I hear the only reason your momma married her brother was because she coludn't learn to spell a different last name. 

Again, I'm sorry for you.


----------



## Lordform

Doc Holliday said:


> Wow. Looks like I struck a nerve.
> 
> C'mon. Fill out your profile. Your name and location will suffice.


LMAO


----------



## Lordform

*That is the good stuff!!*



Doc Holliday said:


> My apologies blitz. I didnt realize how hard it must be trying to read through crossed eyes.
> 
> I hear the only reason your momma married her brother was because she coludn't learn to spell a different last name.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry for you.


Dude, I thought I had some insults.......THAT is THE best!!!!!!


----------



## Lordform

*I can't say anything more about Mathews*

I am going to have to learn to like Mathews now as a deal has been struck between my wife and I- that I will keep this bow and not get another because I just got (today) a new Polaris 700 w/ all the add ons (yeah baby!), I am removing this bow from all sales posts.

Not only that but, per my wife, I will shoot this bow and I will enjoy it.


----------



## sagecreek

Congrats on the four-wheeler! :thumbs_up 

Go ahead and save your lunch money and get that double dampener cable guard too!  You know you want it.


----------



## arkhotrock

*a little insight*

maybe lordform you have not been in business of any kind or maybe you would tone down the arguement, i am a a/c contractor and my agreement with the manufacturer of the equipment i sell is to warrant with free labor for a yr. on all units. 

i have told a friend that owns a archery shop here in little rock that i would never get in the archery business. i watched another shop go down and it is a hard thing to witness to see someone lose their shirt.

now a little business lesson 

a shop empty nothing in it $6000 a mo. $72,000 yr
1 employee $8.00 Hr. with soc.sec. $20,000 yr
lights and heat $500 mo. $6000 yr
phone commerical line to be phone book
with out any ad one line$50 mo. 600 yr
insurance $4000 yr

lets see what we have $102,600
and we haven't sold one bow 

at 10% on a $600 bow $60, 20% would be $120  so if he sold over 900 bows he would be able have a building and employee answer the one phone to order a part and have the lights on see the phone number to mathews to over price the $20 on the part on a bow that he may not have sold in the first place. so maybe if he can have an exclusive rights to parts and service
and make a profit i am 100% sure he won't get rich.


----------



## Myk

arkhotrock, 
You obviously haven't been in retail. If someone is telling you 10% markup they are conning you. As you pointed out, you couldn't pay for the retail space alone with that little markup.
Most retail I know of is 100% with furnature and cloths being more.
I know guns and bows are not that much but they aren't 10% either. I think the gun shop I go to had a sale where he was advertising 12% over cost, that's a sale.


----------



## springer01

I hope you got a extended warranty on that Polaris.. I have had more trouble with my 700 efi than its worth and it cost 10 times what my mathews bow cost and only has a 6 month warranty. 

Tanner


----------



## bhtr3d

Myk said:


> arkhotrock,
> You obviously haven't been in retail. If someone is telling you 10% markup they are conning you. As you pointed out, you couldn't pay for the retail space alone with that little markup.
> Most retail I know of is 100% with furnature and cloths being more.
> I know guns and bows are not that much but they aren't 10% either. I think the gun shop I go to had a sale where he was advertising 12% over cost, that's a sale.



Well, you shouldn't use guns as an example, that's very cutthroat and there is no mark up on avg for firearms. 
Now there is two different things though that some ppl can't grasp.
One is Profit margin. the other is Mark up percentage.
On an avg though. (personal exper.) most products have a 40/50% mark up. this doesn't mean a 40/50% profit. What you want to do is have a avg 30% gross to cover cost and the extra on top of that becomes your gross profit. 
But im not going to give a business lesson in finance. I don't have the time and this site doesn't pay me enough LOL.



For arkhotrock: Hopefully so of the mfg you deal with you get the labor/parts warranty with. as well as some of the parts even have their own warranty format. but we could discuss hvac/r to a great indepth. As, I deal with it on a state commerical end so know a lot of the little things the companies don't want to tell ppl LOL


----------



## arkhotrock

*lets go with your numbers*



Myk said:


> arkhotrock,
> You obviously haven't been in retail. If someone is telling you 10% markup they are conning you. As you pointed out, you couldn't pay for the retail space alone with that little markup.
> Most retail I know of is 100% with furnature and cloths being more.
> I know guns and bows are not that much but they aren't 10% either. I think the gun shop I go to had a sale where he was advertising 12% over cost, that's a sale.



at 100% mark up $600 bow would cost and i seriously doubt it $300 then the shop would only have to sell 330 expensive bows a yr THINK ABOUT IT just to cover some of the overhead and bows ain't furniture


----------



## arkhotrock

*to bhtr3d*

yes i do get the parts and a doa allowance for the first 30days nothing after that 

but what most folks that aren't in business fail to grasp is that when that walk in a store a lot of money has been spent for the place to even be there for them.


----------



## Lordform

sagecreek said:


> Congrats on the four-wheeler! :thumbs_up
> 
> Go ahead and save your lunch money and get that double dampener cable guard too!  You know you want it.



Sage.....you can see right through me lol


----------



## Lordform

springer01 said:


> I hope you got a extended warranty on that Polaris.. I have had more trouble with my 700 efi than its worth and it cost 10 times what my mathews bow cost and only has a 6 month warranty.
> 
> Tanner


I got the 5 year warranty for an xtra $782. Also, since I live in FL there inst much reason for me to get EFI so I have reg carb.

PLease though, do tell about your problems.


----------



## Lordform

arkhotrock said:


> yes i do get the parts and a doa allowance for the first 30days nothing after that
> 
> but what most folks that aren't in business fail to grasp is that when that walk in a store a lot of money has been spent for the place to even be there for them.


The store isnt there for the customer, the customer is there for the store. The only time I would say otherwise is in a small town setting.


----------



## arkhotrock

*chicken or egg?*

lordform if this is the case i suggest you buy bows that are mail order then get the service for mail order .

again point being what you might think is over priced maybe right for the store to stay in business. to be honest i think there should be a limited time of warranty no matter who owns the bow. be it 1 yr or 5yrs. set by the first buyer the shop sends in a warranty card on the date of sale.


----------



## Myk

> at 100% mark up $600 bow would cost and i seriously doubt it $300 then the shop would only have to sell 330 expensive bows a yr THINK ABOUT IT just to cover some of the overhead and bows ain't furniture


You need to think about it. Bows are very much like furniture and cloths. They go out of style quickly and they are easily damaged by the customer. That is why furniture and cloths get more than 100%.
Then you have bows damaged caused by inept, underpaid help who doesn't want to take the time to turn limb bolts before pressing.

Maybe you don't realize it but I agree with you. It costs out the butt to run a retail store. It's just your joke of 10% mark up that I found laughable. You would have problems running a non-B&M store on that.

But that still doesn't give people the right to gouge and if competition was allowed the gouging wouldn't happen. The free market would drive those people out of business.


----------



## Doc Holliday

Sorry for the outbursts y'all. That guy got real nasty and very personal with me in a couple of pms. I'm back on my meds now. 

Anyway. Lordform, I am sure that you will be happy with the bow. I owned an LX once myself and it was one of the best shooting bows that I have had. If I could just put dual cams on one without losing any of the specs I would have another.

Oh yeah, congrads on the 4 wheeler. I'll bet it is nice. :thumbs_up


----------



## arkhotrock

*we do agree*



Myk said:


> You need to think about it. Bows are very much like furniture and cloths. They go out of style quickly and they are easily damaged by the customer. That is why furniture and cloths get more than 100%.
> Then you have bows damaged caused by inept, underpaid help who doesn't want to take the time to turn limb bolts before pressing.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize it but I agree with you. It costs out the butt to run a retail store. It's just your joke of 10% mark up that I found laughable. You would have problems running a non-B&M store on that.
> 
> But that still doesn't give people the right to gouge and if competition was allowed the gouging wouldn't happen. The free market would drive those people out of business.



i know for a fact that hoyt bows cost the dealer about 400 and sold for around $600 there again with 10 ways of sunday that dealer promotions on how many bows they buy and the way they pay for them and don't forget shipping a 30% mark up is about right . but the real mark up is on sights and rests and other accessories . this guy in fl. is more likely screwing lordform and all the details haven't been given . i found it odd to blame the bow company for trying to protect the dealers if they don't make money the go away the dealers and the bow companies just look at the ones that are gone .

they spend load of money on creating a want with the public with new stuff and the last thing they want is to have to discount it. look a mathews and there apex talk about over priced. cost the dealer 900 and they sell for 1200
if i didn't like the service i got then i would find another dealer i might have to drive but it wouldn't be the first time i went somewhere else and won't be the last time. and the dealer will be gone and someone else will take his place maybe lordform might want to get in the game and open a shop:wink:


----------



## springer01

Lordform said:


> I got the 5 year warranty for an xtra $782. Also, since I live in FL there inst much reason for me to get EFI so I have reg carb.
> 
> PLease though, do tell about your problems.


This has less than 400 miles and is just a year old
No start..fuel pump bad
Throttle cable misrouted causing throttle apply when turn the steering wheel
fuel line rubbed in half .,lost all fuel had to walk 
no start ..had to replace battery 
tires suck had to replace all 4 every time I rode I got a flat
wiring to rear brake light rubbed in two causing short to brake lamp

thats all I can think of right now
Tanner


----------



## Chinchgub

Lordform said:


> I just got (today) a new Polaris 700 w/ all the add ons (yeah baby)


 That's why you needed to save the $20....


----------



## Josh Michaelis

Myk said:


> You need to think about it. Bows are very much like furniture and cloths. They go out of style quickly and they are easily damaged by the customer. That is why furniture and cloths get more than 100%.
> Then you have bows damaged caused by inept, underpaid help who doesn't want to take the time to turn limb bolts before pressing.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize it but I agree with you. It costs out the butt to run a retail store. It's just your joke of 10% mark up that I found laughable. You would have problems running a non-B&M store on that.
> 
> But that still doesn't give people the right to gouge and if competition was allowed the gouging wouldn't happen. The free market would drive those people out of business.


Most bows are not marked up over ten percent, the money is not made on the bows, it is made on the accessories, every shop owner will tell you that, most bows and almost all guns are 10% above cost I know, that is what we sell them for, and that is the only way to stay competitive, expecialy with guns.


----------



## Oneida Spike

*Agreed*

I have to agree with all of this on the bow company not able to send out parts to the end customer. I have one of the best bows on the market with the best company pushing it and that my friends is *ONEIDA*.. I can have any bow part sent to my house the next day right from the factory. Now that is customer service.:teeth: Who needs dealers when you can work and service your own bow with out a bow press... 

JMOP


----------



## Keenedge

*Inept*

Retailers are inept for the most part sure. So are some pro shops, inept. Why on earth would someone be SO GOOD that they need to go to a "pro" shop if the silly fool doesnt even know how to maintain and take apart his own bow? Why would you spend extra hard earned limited resource income on a part when you can get it at a chain store for cheaper? I wouldnt!


----------



## Myk

> Most bows are not marked up over ten percent


You'd better take it up with arkhotrock. He just showed where Hoyts were 50% and a Mathews was 33%.

If bows are only 10% why would shops care if the manufacturer sold direct for competitive prices or if there was another dealer of the same line nearby? It would mean they wouldn't have to lay out the big money for bows and could focus more money on the stuff they made their profit from.
If your competition is having to lay out thousands to stock bows you could not do that and undercut them are accessories.

I thought you were a teacher.


----------



## bry2476

Myk said:


> You'd better take it up with arkhotrock. He just showed where Hoyts were 50% and a Mathews was 33%.
> 
> If bows are only 10% why would shops care if the manufacturer sold direct for competitive prices or if there was another dealer of the same line nearby? It would mean they wouldn't have to lay out the big money for bows and could focus more money on the stuff they made their profit from.
> If your competition is having to lay out thousands to stock bows you could not do that and undercut them are accessories.
> 
> I thought you were a teacher.


Yeah these bow companies and dealers have such a monopoly over everyone.


----------



## Lordform

springer01 said:


> This has less than 400 miles and is just a year old
> No start..fuel pump bad
> Throttle cable misrouted causing throttle apply when turn the steering wheel
> fuel line rubbed in half .,lost all fuel had to walk
> no start ..had to replace battery
> tires suck had to replace all 4 every time I rode I got a flat
> wiring to rear brake light rubbed in two causing short to brake lamp
> 
> thats all I can think of right now
> Tanner


Dude I am sorry to hear that and REALLY hope that isnt the case with mine.......or, as you know from this thread, they will definitely hear about it.


----------



## Josh Michaelis

Myk said:


> You'd better take it up with arkhotrock. He just showed where Hoyts were 50% and a Mathews was 33%.
> 
> If bows are only 10% why would shops care if the manufacturer sold direct for competitive prices or if there was another dealer of the same line nearby? It would mean they wouldn't have to lay out the big money for bows and could focus more money on the stuff they made their profit from.
> If your competition is having to lay out thousands to stock bows you could not do that and undercut them are accessories.
> 
> I thought you were a teacher.


I am but I managed a sporting good store for 2 years, I am juse telling you what we sold bows and guns for, and we were no cheaper than anywhere else, we were just competitive. We didnt sell Hoyts or Mathews either though.


----------



## Salt Grass Mama

My husband and I both own Mathews bows and he and I have both had cams replaced (changing draw length) and were never charged for the cams or the labor. I would definitely go to a different shop. I have never had a problem that my pro shop wouldn't or couldn't take care of. Did you buy the bow from this shop or did you buy it someplace else and take it there for service? If you bought it at this shop I don't understand why they are charging you to swap out a part, but almost any shop will charge you for working on a bow you bought elsewhere. 

I can buy my arrows, releases, etc. cheaper online than I can at the pro shop, but I understand that the shop owners have to make a living, too. So I pay the markup and I have a great relationship with the guys at the shop. They even came out and opened the store late one night because I lost my release and was leaving in the middle of the night to go on a hunt. 

In my humble opinion, maybe it isn't Mathews that's the problem. Product liability is a big deal these days and I'm sure Mathews' legal team has had a great deal to do with the situation. If they ship you the part and you install it incorrectly and get hurt, then they are exposing themselves to a HUGE product liability suit. Maybe if folks weren't ready to sue at the drop of a hat, companies like Mathews wouldn't feel the need to limit their exposure to lawsuits, but in this litigious society, any company would be foolish to not try to limit liability.


----------



## doubleclucker

VaporShtr said:


> Shouldn't the thread title be "Don't do business with Jet Outdoors". I'm sure Mathews would assume some liability if the parts went straight to you and something ungood happened.


I agree!! They carry a lifetime warranty on their bows.


----------



## robk

Les said:


> I researched Lordform's previous posts, and low and behold, he bought the bow second-hand from a friend! He is not the original owner!
> 
> I see how it works for him.....he was enlightened by his dealer on how the warranty on the LX is no good to him. Was he just expecting to get this "newly purchased" cable guard installed for free? He does not understand that the dealers perform warranty work labor without compensation from Mathews, why should they do it for him for free when he buys one, or brings one in? Bet that explains the higher price of the part, his dealer also knew installation labor was requested when he purchases the part. He has already changed cams! Wonder how much he paid his dealer for labor?
> 
> This should explain to some the premium paid to purchase a brand new Mathews bow from the dealer. The warranty covers more than just parts!



i have read what he said and he is not trying to get it warrantied he said he was talking about the price the one shop had and the other was 20 bucks cheaper. i would say he does have a good handle on the whole situation and i understand where he is coming from. i worked in a couple of shops that had mathews and if i were oening a shop mathews would not be one of my lines. i have seen what they have done to customers and did to customers we had dealt with for years and they lost a lot of sales and that will happen from time to time. mathews is only one of the lines i would not bring into my shop the other would high country. iu hnave no idea what they are doing but the shops i worked at both dropped them due to what was really inappropriate business practices. now i have helped out a local shop that sells mathews and they would prefer not too work with mathews on warranty but they sell the things os they are stuck with them and their other lines they sell there when i work help out if a customer comes in with the lines and i know the others will proably have some negative but ever shop i have worked at says the same thing that there are some companies out there that are absolutely consumer oriented and then there are the high country and mathews side of the bill. 
yes mathews sells a lot of bows and they have the hype to do so but in the end they will lose customers because of this kind of practices and it is sad. i am not a mathews fan and never will be. i think they can do some changing and they need too but i don't see that happening and i see every day what wsas once empty racks are staying full of mathews bows they can't sell
rob k


----------



## terry prowse

*bows*

Mathews Are Sh-t buy something else, anything else, good bad of indefferant, but not a mathews,cr-p, cr-d t-rd. and don't drive miles and miles for parts. check some other companies about parts and supply, you will be supprised. I have here in oz, been emailed by company owners re inquiries etc, that is service.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Mathews Bows*

Most dealers here in Oklahoma fight to keep there Mathews bows, wouldnt consider given up there dealership. You know it and I know it. I shoot for two large Mathews Dealers and both wouldnt drop Mathews for nothing. Mathews has took care of ever customer I have ever sold too.

RobK just send those customers of yours to Davenports archery and we will take care of them. 29 years in the buisness, Jeff sells many Mathews. RobK Im sure your Mathews dealers appreciate you saying this on a open forum. Maybe you should explian this to customers before you try and sale them a Mathews bow.

You dont become this succesfull without doing things right.


----------



## vonmajor

*It's called protecting their dealership network*

They. like any other manuafacturer, need to protect their delaership network. Those are the people you call go to to get your bow turned, especially important for those who do not have all the skills or accessories to undertake the job thmeselves, but still like to shoot. The way the REAL WORLD works it that if you have to go to any manufacturer, Mathews included, you will, if they allow it, be charged full retail price so they do not undercut their dealership network. Ity is important for them to do so. It protects them from shoddy repairs ( the person who makes the repair all to oftem blames the equipment, manufacturer and posts negative replies as a result on forums like these) and protects the brand name and image. That is very important because the truth is easilly damged, especially when you read a forum like this. Sure, you can find some very good info on sites like this, but you can also get alot that amounts to just a bunch of old wives tales that have to taken for what they are worth. If you want Mathew accessories, service, you go to the source. Anything else, go to the aftermarket.


----------



## timstrickland48

*Wow*

THIS POST HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR OVER THREE WEEKS LOL and I read every post I need to get a life:ball:


----------



## lineman309

timstrickland48 said:


> THIS POST HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR OVER THREE WEEKS LOL and I read every post I need to get a life:ball:


:thumbs_up


----------



## Doc Holliday

> It's called protecting their dealership network


I keep seeing this saying.

Protect their dealers from what???????????? Competition?


----------



## railbird

I thought this horse had been beat to death but I see he's still kicking.


----------



## mttc08

*hmmmmm*

Wasn't it just yesterday that I was reading a thread on here about how good mathews customer service was? It even said mathews warrenty would cover a bow if it had been dry fired!!! Yep, that's what I read.....can't believe they just won't send the guy a cable roller guide. Very confusing


----------



## mttc08

*here it is....*

read post #37 of Bad Bow Tech Blowup in general archery discussion


----------



## 04hoytshooter

one easy fix to your problem

Throw your mathews in the garbage(sarcasticly) and buy a hoyt and then your worries are more on pin alignment and slow release, Xring 


Tim


----------



## GONZO

well i am no cultist , i just read as much as i could stand to ,,, GEEEEEZ folks yall are a bit wound up HUH ? LMAO !!!!! well i know this is you gotta quibble about 20 $ or what no , or trying to get equipment at a reduced price i can say this > why dont yall find a new sport ? one you can afford , like checkers ! geeeeez some of the post made in here sounds like a snuffy smith comic strip . LMAO !!!!!! I`m outta here !!


----------



## MotherLode

All of this over twenty bucks ? sheeze


----------



## Rickochet

*I love my Switchback...*

And my dealer... Bass and Bucks in Wabash, Indiana... they would never let a shooter down!

Merry Chrsitmas to all!:thumbs_up


----------



## Tropicalfruitmo

Merry Christmas to you, too, Ricochet!


----------



## fowlhunter8

*great custemer service*

i have hgad great custemer service from mathews with my bow anything has gone wrong or made noise my mathews dealer has taken care of it 
you need a better bow shop because *they dont make a better bow*
i will give $100 for the bow


----------



## Lordform

fowlhunter8 said:


> i have hgad great custemer service from mathews with my bow anything has gone wrong or made noise my mathews dealer has taken care of it
> you need a better bow shop because *they dont make a better bow*
> i will give $100 for the bow


Only $100 dollars for a bow you readily speak so highly of?

Is that irony or does the truth unknowingly seep from within you?


----------



## 2005Ultramag

Lordform said:


> Only $100 dollars for a bow you readily speak so highly of?
> 
> Is that irony or does the truth unknowingly seep from within you?


It's a generous offer for a bow you admittedly think so little of.
Perhaps you value it more than your words imply?
Is that irony or does the truth unknowingly seep from within *YOU*?


----------



## mathewshooter

I think thats where u can say....GOTEM...2005ultramag that is nice...and as for mathews bows ive had seven, i still own 4 and im 18 there is not a better bow made, but I dont need to tell you that theres only 90% of the archery champions in every genre of competitive archery silently screaming that at you when they are holding there championshipS in their right hands and their mathews bows in the other...opinions are one thing facts are another...the fact is you had a bad experience with a DEALER and you blame the manufacturer for the DEALERS pricing policy... if you are around archery long enough you will eventually see a bow built in some ones garage from parts of every brand, mathews cams on merlin bows, etc. this is what mathews' policy is trying to prevent. Believe it or not it was not designed to cause u problems or allow for a dealer to price gauge you....but what do we know we just win...ill give 125 for the bow


----------



## rconry

right on brother....I have a few friends that have had trouble with their Mathews and the dealers and the Mathews company all act like they are doing the general public a giant service by providing these bows at unheard of prices. Next time look into Custom Shooting Systems. I'll put my CSS Encore up against a Mathews any day of the week and out shoot it. I work in an archery shop and from what I see the people who buy into this mathews bs are people with more money than brains.


----------



## Lordform

2005Ultramag said:


> It's a generous offer for a bow you admittedly think so little of.
> Perhaps you value it more than your words imply?
> Is that irony or does the truth unknowingly seep from within *YOU*?


Gosh, you are quick and witty with your words. Try being so with your eyes and read where i said multiple times that I have no problem with the bow or its quailty. I said that I think little of the custoemr service.

Or would you rather be wrong and make yourself look stupid while trying to do the same to others? Nevermind, you have answered that one already.

Whats it got to do with you anyway?

I have long ago said that I am keeping the bow and that as far as I am concerned this is a dead thread.


----------



## Lordform

mathewshooter said:


> I think thats where u can say....GOTEM...2005ultramag that is nice...and as for mathews bows ive had seven, i still own 4 and im 18 there is not a better bow made, but I dont need to tell you that theres only 90% of the archery champions in every genre of competitive archery silently screaming that at you when they are holding there championshipS in their right hands and their mathews bows in the other...opinions are one thing facts are another...the fact is you had a bad experience with a DEALER and you blame the manufacturer for the DEALERS pricing policy... if you are around archery long enough you will eventually see a bow built in some ones garage from parts of every brand, mathews cams on merlin bows, etc. this is what mathews' policy is trying to prevent. Believe it or not it was not designed to cause u problems or allow for a dealer to price gauge you....but what do we know we just win...ill give 125 for the bow


The fact is your reading comprehension is poor. Reread (as I have stated to SO MANY OTHERS) and you will find that my problem is not with the dealer who takes advantage of the gouging-friendly policy, but the with the MAKER of the gouging friendly policy. 

Got'em.


----------



## 2005Ultramag

Lordform said:


> Gosh, you are quick and witty with your words. Try being so with your eyes and read where i said multiple times that I have no problem with the bow or its quailty. I said that I think little of the custoemr service.
> 
> Or would you rather be wrong and make yourself look stupid while trying to do the same to others? Nevermind, you have answered that one already.
> 
> Whats it got to do with you anyway?
> 
> I have long ago said that I am keeping the bow and that as far as I am concerned this is a dead thread.


I simply made an observation from an impartial, unbiased perspective. Obviously(being a proud owner of a quality HOYT product) I have no dog in this fight. If it ruffled your feathers then maybe you're a bit oversensative to the issue that you raised. 
POT
KETTLE
BLACK​


----------



## mathewshooter

Lordform said:


> Fellow archers,
> 
> I truly hate to speak badly about any business but I am in a position where I must.
> 
> I have been looking to get a new cable roller for my Mathews LX. The guy in my area has marked it up exponentially (Jet Outdoors in Miami, FL), whereas a bowshop in Tampa (Arrowhead Archery) is selling the part for $20.00 less.
> 
> The problem is Mathews has a policy that prohibits its dealers from sending out merchandise to end users; even parts. The guy in my area knows this and is exploiting it.
> 
> I called Mathews and spoke to Jeff as well as his supervisor Shea. They adamantly refused to bend in policy to allow me to save the $20.00. Upon my mention that I would have to sell my bow due to parts being so hard to obtain, they were both completely apathetic and acted as though Mathews, for the most part, does not need my business.
> 
> It also appears that Mathews has a policy that prevents its customers from getting parts sent, but does not have a policy to keep its dealers from exploiting the local customers.
> 
> My advice to you all is get a bow from a different company. At least then you will have the option to shop around and get parts for the lowest price.
> 
> Finally, and I think most importantly, you will be able to experience customer service at a more tolerable level. Those in business who do not know the power of word-of mouth always learn the hard way. I won't go out of my way to bad mouth this company (beyond this post) but if ANYONE ever asks me about a bow or which to get, I will be sure to recommend they stay away from Mathews.
> 
> This is pathetic.


"THE GUY IN MY AREA KNOWS IT AND IS EXPLOITING IT." now unless this refers to some random person other than the dealer than my reading comprehension stands the chances of being far better than your own considering you posted this thread, so if you would like to get back to this issue rather than embarasssing yourself by insulting someones intelligence that is far greater than your own. You clearly have a problem with the dealer, by not spending the 20 bucks with the guy, this is clear . Once again whether you choose to see it or not the flaw is with him not Mathews. YOUR problem is not necessarily THE problem.


----------



## mdjohns300

*Thanks*

I just wanted to thank you all with providing me 75 minutes of entertainment while I'm stuck here at work on a holiday!

By the way, I love my Mathews and my Pro-shop, even if it is in NW PA, and I'm in SE Virginia!


----------



## NEWsportsman

I drive a ford anyone got a problem with that:thumbs_up


----------



## 2005Ultramag

Not me. 
I'll take a Ford over anything else... and I work at a Dodge dealer.


----------



## Lordform

mathewshooter said:


> "THE GUY IN MY AREA KNOWS IT AND IS EXPLOITING IT." now unless this refers to some random person other than the dealer than my reading comprehension stands the chances of being far better than your own considering you posted this thread, so if you would like to get back to this issue rather than embarasssing yourself by insulting someones intelligence that is far greater than your own. You clearly have a problem with the dealer, by not spending the 20 bucks with the guy, this is clear . Once again whether you choose to see it or not the flaw is with him not Mathews. YOUR problem is not necessarily THE problem.



This reply made it even more laughable. Read the whole post/thread then try to delete this ridiculous reply.


----------



## rcher

*Bow trouble*

Why can't we all just get along?:noidea:


----------



## Q2XL

*two bits*

Just wanted to put my two bits in. I can honestly say I didn't read this whole thread but "the Lord" does strike me as a unfriendly character. I copied a earlier note here from someone else who really summed it up nicely....

here is a idea, drive to tampa, save the 20 bucks on that roller guard but pay no attention to the 60 bucks you will spend on the 7 hour round trip from miami to tampa via the alley. what matters most is you saved that 20 dollars and not only screwed your local dealer out of more cash buy not buying it from him and basically, not buying the bow in general from him. 

we get enough bow bashing/company bashing/ when will my damn bow get here threads you are like all the other moles. 

I wouldn't throw my hat in here but had a pretty good experience with a dealer here lately. Needed a 27" cam for my Icon and called the dealer here who has a very small dealership and works out of his house/shop. He told me on the phone he would trade it out for nothing which I thought was super cool but when I got there he asked me where I had got the bow and I told him AT so he said he had to charge me $20 to change the cam out, still fine as buying a new cam or even a used one was going to cost me more than that. Anyway, I appreciate these guys having to make a living and think $20 is not worth getting all wacky about....

Lord it's your right not to shoot Mathews but really your thread is pointless and I hope nobody with a brain doesn't buy a Mathews because they think the service is poor because of your thread.....


----------



## Cougar Mag

Perhaps some of you will think me small minded but after reading this thread.....I will be buying a new Martin, Bowtech, or Hoyt instead of the Switchback I was about to order. I have a *good* Matthews dealer close by, but I don't like attitudes, and its apparent the manufacturer has an attitude. Thats sad.


----------



## Lordform

Q2XL said:


> Just wanted to put my two bits in. I can honestly say I didn't read this whole thread but "the Lord" does strike me as a unfriendly character. I copied a earlier note here from someone else who really summed it up nicely....
> 
> here is a idea, drive to tampa, save the 20 bucks on that roller guard but pay no attention to the 60 bucks you will spend on the 7 hour round trip from miami to tampa via the alley. what matters most is you saved that 20 dollars and not only screwed your local dealer out of more cash buy not buying it from him and basically, not buying the bow in general from him.
> 
> we get enough bow bashing/company bashing/ when will my damn bow get here threads you are like all the other moles.
> 
> I wouldn't throw my hat in here but had a pretty good experience with a dealer here lately. Needed a 27" cam for my Icon and called the dealer here who has a very small dealership and works out of his house/shop. He told me on the phone he would trade it out for nothing which I thought was super cool but when I got there he asked me where I had got the bow and I told him AT so he said he had to charge me $20 to change the cam out, still fine as buying a new cam or even a used one was going to cost me more than that. Anyway, I appreciate these guys having to make a living and think $20 is not worth getting all wacky about....
> 
> Lord it's your right not to shoot Mathews but really your thread is pointless and I hope nobody with a brain doesn't buy a Mathews because they think the service is poor because of your thread.....


it doesnt matter. I was done with this thread months ago. I just noticed someone speaking so highly of the bow then offering $100 for it, which is laughable.

I should have remebered that this place is full of negative people who are just looking for a place to spill their frustrations and a person to aim it at. 

I guess it's ok.whatever gets you away from the Klan meetings.


----------



## bear13148

*Now I remember why I don't come here anymore*

This type of thing is also the reason I have avoided AT for months now, and I see nothing has changed. Someone writes in with an honest problem and all of a sudden he's brand bashing. Oh its the dealer not the company. Wrong the companys policys only reinforce that type of dealer in his ripping ways. Never heard of Martin or Hoyt putting up an attitude like that. If we were talking about Bowtech or PSE it would be okay. But god forbid you say something bad about Mathews, then they're all up in arms. Oh Mathews is number 1 best bows ever made, blah blah blah blah blah. What it proves is that some, most, all? Mathews owners are just as pompas as the company itself. I owned a Switchback for about two months, couldn't wait to get rid of that piece. Don't get me wrong a switchback is a good $400 bow, too bad it costs twice that. So all you mathews faithful can jump right on this and write all the bad crap you want to about me I don't care, I'm going to be practicing with my bow, not trying to convince everyone else here how great it is. I own a Martin and a Reflex and just orderd a new Bowtech so there is more for you to jump on. If there is one thing that has been proved on AT its that the biggest problem with Mathews is not the products but the customers (atleast most of them I have ever talked to) and company staff. You people don't need treestands during hunting season, your inflated egoes will float you high enough to hunt this year.


----------



## TailChaser

I hate Mathews


----------



## TailChaser

I Love Mathews





Now I'm popular with everyone :thumbs_up :teeth:


----------



## Gritty

Not really sure how to respond in this thing.... I am simply having a hard time seeing my screen with the tears rolling down my face from the laughin at some of these posts......... Great entertainment fellas....... My compliments


----------



## b0w_sniper

*There is always one stooge in the group.........*

:heh:


----------



## TheBowdoctor

Why does Mathews screw the customer? Because they can. Their customers (and dealers) just keep coming back for more.


----------



## Lordform

bear13148 said:


> This type of thing is also the reason I have avoided AT for months now, and I see nothing has changed. Someone writes in with an honest problem and all of a sudden he's brand bashing. Oh its the dealer not the company. Wrong the companys policys only reinforce that type of dealer in his ripping ways. Never heard of Martin or Hoyt putting up an attitude like that. If we were talking about Bowtech or PSE it would be okay. But god forbid you say something bad about Mathews, then they're all up in arms. Oh Mathews is number 1 best bows ever made, blah blah blah blah blah. What it proves is that some, most, all? Mathews owners are just as pompas as the company itself. I owned a Switchback for about two months, couldn't wait to get rid of that piece. Don't get me wrong a switchback is a good $400 bow, too bad it costs twice that. So all you mathews faithful can jump right on this and write all the bad crap you want to about me I don't care, I'm going to be practicing with my bow, not trying to convince everyone else here how great it is. I own a Martin and a Reflex and just orderd a new Bowtech so there is more for you to jump on. If there is one thing that has been proved on AT its that the biggest problem with Mathews is not the products but the customers (atleast most of them I have ever talked to) and company staff. You people don't need treestands during hunting season, your inflated egoes will float you high enough to hunt this year.


I love it!


----------



## sean

*stop the cronies*

yet another example of people being manufacturers little cronies.some one has a problem and hundreds of people dog pile on him .so what did Mathews do for you folks who bashed this guy, to gain such vicious loyalty ? you bought their product they should be the ones supporting you guys right ? think for your selves don't be little robots ..


----------



## IN Deerhunter

AKDoug said:


> All this over a lousy 20 bucks. Tell you what. I'll send you the twenty bucks and you can run down to your local Matt dealer and pick one up at no loss to you.


Doug
My Matt dealer is trying to screw me too; if I send you my address will you send me $20.


----------



## stehawk

Myk said:


> I know for a fact I can order limbs from a local and put them on my Martin myself. I also have a pretty good idea that if I wanted the shop to put them on they would not charge me labor since I bought the parts from their store.
> Moral of the story, according to you, DO NOT BUY USED MATHEWS.
> 
> There is no real reason to not allow parts to be sent to users not covered under warranty. It is an unfair business practice meant to protect the shops and screw the customers.



I agree!!! Moreover, Mathew won't sell repair parts or accessories to other bow DEALERS!!!!!! I have several customers come in my shop that want to change draw length, etc. Mathews won't even send me the parts to help my customers. That sucks--- I have to turn them away because I can't even change the draw length for them. If I have a state and fed tax # and licenced to do business how do they justify refusing to sell me repair parts? --------I needed some things for a Bowtech TomKat----Bowtech sold me the parts! I don't know about all the others but I feel a bow shop owner should be allowed to order parts and help customers no matter what brand of bow.:thumbs_up


----------



## rcher

*Mathews*

I'm not defending their practices but they won't sell to you because they only sell to authorized dealers, so they can back up there warranty for the original owner. They only want authorized dealers working on their equipment. They started their company with this policy and have not wavered from it. Doesn't make it right ,but that's their way.


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## stehawk

MNbuck said:


> Do you order car or truck parts directly from Ford or GM?
> 
> PM me your address, I will send you a 20 dollar bill.



NO, but I can go to the local auto parts store and buy just about anything for all the different makes, brands, and models. Can I get $20 bucks too?:teeth:


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## parkerbows

MNbuck said:


> Do you order car or truck parts directly from Ford or GM?
> 
> PM me your address, I will send you a 20 dollar bill.


I have. jeep also


----------



## bow4life

stehawk said:


> NO, but I can go to the local auto parts store and buy just about anything for all the different makes, brands, and models. Can I get $20 bucks too?:teeth:



Unless of course it's a "dealer only" part. Then you do the only logical thing you can do....go buy a different manufacturers vehicle.


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## stehawk

bow4life said:


> Unless of course it's a "dealer only" part. Then you do the only logical thing you can do....go buy a different manufacturers vehicle.


:thumbs_up OR, go to the local salvage and get a used part for half the cost.  :teeth: :RockOn: :banana:


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## 2005Ultramag

stehawk said:


> :thumbs_up OR, go to the local salvage and get a used part for half the cost.  :teeth: :RockOn: :banana:


...and replace again in half the time you would a new one.

 

Go to a junkyard for parts and the parts you get are _____________.(fill in the blank)
I'll go to a "salvage" yard for a door, or fender, but not a working part.


...or you could come to the dealer, and see me, and get a part that will last like the one the factory installed.


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## KalamazooKid

Lordform said:


> I was done with this thread months ago.


Then why don't you just go away?


----------



## Lordform

KalamazooKid said:


> Then why don't you just go away?


The answer to your question is contained in the words directly following the segment you quoted above

so, obviously, just like alot of others on here, either your reading comprehension is pre-kindergarten or you are looking for someone to aim your self hatred and frustraion at and trying to pick a fight. I'm gonna take a leap and hope its the latter (not the one you climb).

No thanks. Go post on something that has SOMETHING to do with you.


----------



## stehawk

2005Ultramag said:


> ...and replace again in half the time you would a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> Go to a junkyard for parts and the parts you get are _____________.(fill in the blank)
> I'll go to a "salvage" yard for a door, or fender, but not a working part.
> 
> 
> ...or you could come to the dealer, and see me, and get a part that will last like the one the factory installed.


 Are we having fun yet or what? I don't disagree with ya at all. Nonetheless, as a dealer myself I just wish I could get the parts and help the consumers without paying jacked up prices from another dealer. I can't carry Matthews bows because I'm in a controlled area by another dealer. Why can't I at least purchase repair parts from Mathews. I was told that I could be a dealer for their strings but not any repair parts for their bows.:confused. All bow manufacturers should be in business to help the consumer as much as possible. Makes me wonder why I ever go involved with such a cut throat industy.


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## 2005Ultramag

stehawk said:


> Are we having fun yet or what? I don't disagree with ya at all. Nonetheless, as a dealer myself I just wish I could get the parts and help the consumers without paying jacked up prices from another dealer. I can't carry Matthews bows because I'm in a controlled area by another dealer. Why can't I at least purchase repair parts from Mathews. I was told that I could be a dealer for their strings but not any repair parts for their bows.:confused. All bow manufacturers should be in business to help the consumer as much as possible. Makes me wonder why I ever go involved with such a cut throat industy.


They are protecting the folks that invest in becoming dealers. 

Look at it this way;
I work at a Dodge store. Ford won't sell directly to me. I have to buy from a Ford Store, and pay them more than what they pay Ford for what I buy. If they need a Dodge part then the shoe is on the other foot. People all go into business for the same reason you did... to make a buck.


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## bowman78

*repair parts*

the idea that you can go to the local auto parts store and buy parts for your car being the same as parts for a bow is rediculious. go to autozone and buy an oem gm, dodge, or ford part. you cant,the parts are not the same.ie aftermarket parts they don't sell oe parts. if you want oe you go to the dealer. the manufacturers do this to protect their dealers and brand integrity.this is not a fair comparison..just my 2 cents.....tim


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## HuntinFreak

blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blahhl;kj;lakjl;akdjfakloriuaoprijrglkjgal;kng;lkghl;kasfdhglkasdfjgoariejgoaireg;oiarego;iaehrg;oiasdjg;oiagj;oaijg;oaijg;laijg;laijg;orj


----------



## Timberwolf

I don't have any experience with Mathews bows or service because I couldn't get past a few things. Have they addressed these?

1. Level nock travel? (I think I've seen advertisements that indicate they have cams with level travel now, so I think the answer to this is YES.)

2. Really long bowstrings with the nock point no where near the middle. I know we have better string materials now but in my experience 450, 450+, D97 all will creep a little over time. Even if the risk is less with new materials, why not have the nock point closer to the middle like it is on a 2-cam? That way if the string does elongate some, the effect on the nocking point would be less.

3. Questionable advertising claims in pushing their solo cam design vs 2-cam and other designs, like: a solocam is 'easier to hold at full draw than a two cam because you don't have two cams fighting each other'


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## KalamazooKid

Lordform said:


> The answer to your question is contained in the words directly following the segment you quoted above
> 
> so, obviously, just like alot of others on here, either your reading comprehension is pre-kindergarten or you are looking for someone to aim your self hatred and frustraion at and trying to pick a fight. I'm gonna take a leap and hope its the latter (not the one you climb).
> 
> No thanks. Go post on something that has SOMETHING to do with you.


Ba Ha Ha :deadhorse  ...... yer killin me here!


----------



## Perfectionist

Timberwolf said:


> I don't have any experience with Mathews bows or service because I couldn't get past a few things. Have they addressed these?
> 
> 1. Level nock travel? (I think I've seen advertisements that indicate they have cams with level travel now, so I think the answer to this is YES.)


In reality, no single cam has "level nock travel". This can only be achieved when both the top and bottom wheels are symmetric. If one is a wheel and the bottom is a cam, then the cam will turn at varying speeds depending on the shape of the eccentric and the distance from the focal point (elementary physics). Another thing to consider is the symmetry of the nock position between the axles. The rate at which the bowstring will be drawn by the wheels will be different from top to bottom.

Let's say that all this is achieved for a bow, this will only happen for one specific draw length. As the draw length changes, so does the shape and size of the eccentric on the bottom cam, which of course will change the rotation speed, and ultimately the nock travel.

Even if both cam's are eccentric (as opposed to round wheels or a single cam setup), they have to be perfectly timed in order to get the desired results. Also, both top and bottom limb have to be matched perfectly.

In a nuthsell, all this talk about "level nock travel" is clever marketing. It looks good on paper, but noone can prove it.


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## stehawk

2005Ultramag said:


> They are protecting the folks that invest in becoming dealers.
> 
> Look at it this way;
> I work at a Dodge store. Ford won't sell directly to me. I have to buy from a Ford Store, and pay them more than what they pay Ford for what I buy. If they need a Dodge part then the shoe is on the other foot. People all go into business for the same reason you did... to make a buck.


Again, we agree 100%. Sadly though, they won't let me invest in becoming a dealer. I tried.  We can make comparisons on alot of different things. Running shoes for example. Does Nike care if how many stores carry an sell their shoes-- even if they're side by side? Matter of fact, the only thing I dislike about it is not being able to buy parts and do repair for customers bows. I have to turn them away. I just feel that its a disservice to them and nothing more. Its hard for me to comprehend why they'll let me sell their strings and nothing else. Why not cams also? Because they can't control the string market?-----yep! Bye the way, I know of one auto dealer that carries at least a dozen different brands of of auto's. Foriegn and domestic. He also sells parts for all of them. 

Lastly, I sure hope I can make a buck pretty soon!! :teeth: Plus, I've heard that beer nuts cost a buck but deer nuts were under a buck. :teeth:


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## HV Bowman

*You know what Folks!*

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past time to let this thread die.


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## BillyRay

HV Bowman said:


> It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past time to let this thread die.


Agreed!!! God I can't believe this thread is still around!!!


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## Timberwolf

Perfectionist, 

Maybe bow co.s have made nock travel a bigger deal than it really is, but if the nock point changes -- whether moved intentionally or if string creep moves it -- there is an effect on where the arrow goes. So the super long strings on the Mathews-type bows just don't make sense to me.

I guess I've never actually tried to do it, but it seems like graphing the path of nock travel (giving you something similar to the charts you see in some ads) would be doable. Maybe not easy for the ave archer to setup and do, but doable at least. The bow I have that boasts "level nock travel" does seem easier to tune than other bows I've had... But I can't say I've tried to graph it to prove it. Might have to try that just out of curiosity.


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## Doc Holliday

Just think, with the opening of Elite, they could be starting a new trend in archery.

Aftermarket cams, limbs, axles etc. This could be BIG. :thumbs_up 

Heck, I might even buy a used Mathews if I never have to deal with 
Mathews.


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## mathewsbakerjr

*one in a million*

for the unmentionable amt of good things mathews has done for me and others around the country 20.00 is not a huge deal if you like the bow its worth the 20.00 and why buy from this one distributer if another is cheaper???????


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## Perfectionist

Timberwolf said:


> Perfectionist,
> 
> Maybe bow co.s have made nock travel a bigger deal than it really is, but if the nock point changes -- whether moved intentionally or if string creep moves it -- there is an effect on where the arrow goes. So the super long strings on the Mathews-type bows just don't make sense to me.
> 
> I guess I've never actually tried to do it, but it seems like graphing the path of nock travel (giving you something similar to the charts you see in some ads) would be doable. Maybe not easy for the ave archer to setup and do, but doable at least. The bow I have that boasts "level nock travel" does seem easier to tune than other bows I've had... But I can't say I've tried to graph it to prove it. Might have to try that just out of curiosity.


I agree, level nock travel is overrated. You can tune a bow that does not have level nock travel just as well as one with level nock travel. But like you said, the difference is the ease which it is done. 

Regarding the mechanical aspects of level nock travel, it is really pretty extensive, and it is probably best not to bore everyone with the details. However, theoretically it can be done, but it is not something that the average do-it-yourself archer can do without serious machinery. Most bows may be close, and some bows closer than others, but it is more like a pipe dream than reality. The problem you will have trying to graph it is that you are not able to trace the nock after release. The nock may be level at rest, but is it still level when the bow is at full draw? And just because it is still level at full draw, upon release the limbs and risers change geometry and this could cause curved nock travel.


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## sean

nock travel is important and Mathews for the most part has great nock travel .the cam 1/2 that i personally shoot has an 1/8'' dip at the end of the power stroke. still OK but its way cool to watch it at 10+thousand frames per second shot from a hooter shooter you realize how important it is..


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## stehawk

Perfectionist said:


> I agree, level nock travel is overrated. You can tune a bow that does not have level nock travel just as well as one with level nock travel. But like you said, the difference is the ease which it is done.
> 
> Not wanting to start a flaming session but there's several people around that disagree that nock travel is overrated. I know I'm not the best shooter around but I have learned, through trial and error, about how well I shoot.
> #1 If my bow is tuned the best I can do-- the better I shoot.  Maybe its just because I have more confidence, when I feel its tuned well, but I can't prove that just yet. There's several articles, pictures, and veidos of nock travel. Level nock travel is more commonly referred to as straight nock travel. On Spot Hogg's website there are several articles talking about nock travel and they have conducted extensive testing. They said " Different bows can shoot the same arrow and get different results. The bow with the straightest nock travel always grouped the best". They seem to be a reputable company and I feel they know more than me. Anyway, I'm going to continue try and get the best (straightest) nock travel I can and will feel good about doing it. :thumbs_up


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## Perfectionist

stehawk said:


> Not wanting to start a flaming session but there's several people around that disagree that nock travel is overrated. I know I'm not the best shooter around but I have learned, through trial and error, about how well I shoot.
> #1 If my bow is tuned the best I can do-- the better I shoot.  Maybe its just because I have more confidence, when I feel its tuned well, but I can't prove that just yet. There's several articles, pictures, and veidos of nock travel. Level nock travel is more commonly referred to as straight nock travel.


You hit the nail on the head... the real factor that determines tunability is straight nock travel, not "level" nock travel as the marketing people would like you to believe. The straightness has to do more with the geometry of the cams than anything else. Matthews does a good job with this, but they are not the only game in town. A well tuned dual cam bow will also have straight nock travel, whether it is level depends on how well it is tiller tuned. Single cam and Cam-1/2 bows will give straight nock travel, but may have a sudden jerky motion at the end of the power stroke because one cam is tethered to one of the limbs, which will cause an abrupt and uneven stopping motion. Binary cams are probably the closes thing to having absolutely straight nock travel because the cams are timed opposite each other, and they are geometrically the same.


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## stehawk

Perfectionist said:


> . A well tuned dual cam bow will also have straight nock travel, whether it is level depends on how well it is tiller tuned.


:thumbs_up Just one question. What you refer too as tiller tuned--- is that the same or the same results as creep tuning?


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## Perfectionist

stehawk said:


> :thumbs_up Just one question. What you refer too as tiller tuned--- is that the same or the same results as creep tuning?


Tiller tuning is where one limb is tightened down more than the other. There are a couple of reasons why you do this, but when it comes to nock travel here is my experience:

I bought a Bowtech Miranda single cam for my son. He is at the smallest module size. With the limbs at even tiller, in order to get the bow to paper tune, the arrow would point upward at about a 15-20 degree angle. When I put a bow square to it, the arrow was nocked about 2 inches low. So I tightened the top limb all the way, and loosened the bottom limb about 5 turns. Now the arrow only points up about 3-5 degrees, and only a quarter inch low.

Creep tuning on the other hand is used to help you determine dynamic spine and set centershot.


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## stehawk

Perfectionist said:


> Tiller tuning is where one limb is tightened down more than the other. There are a couple of reasons why you do this, but when it comes to nock travel here is my experience:
> 
> I bought a Bowtech Miranda single cam for my son. He is at the smallest module size. With the limbs at even tiller, in order to get the bow to paper tune, the arrow would point upward at about a 15-20 degree angle. When I put a bow square to it, the arrow was nocked about 2 inches low. So I tightened the top limb all the way, and loosened the bottom limb about 5 turns. Now the arrow only points up about 3-5 degrees, and only a quarter inch low.
> 
> Creep tuning on the other hand is used to help you determine dynamic spine and set centershot.



Honestly it sounds like the same as creep tuning with creep tuning not adjusting or compensating for as much correction. Can the same results be obtained ----by the twisting of the buzz cables during creep tuning as by the loosening the limb in tiller tuning? I do walk back tuning to correct my center shot. Thanks, this is very interesting to me.


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## rsw

I think this thread has worn itself out. All you archers, envious of the Mathews universe, should just go buy a Switchback or Apex 7 and achieve Nirvana. Discard all those lower caste brands name bows and come to the Happy Universe!!

Then this thing can end.


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## Bobmuley

rsw said:


> I think this thread has worn itself out. All you archers, envious of the Mathews universe, should just go buy a Switchback or Apex 7 and achieve Nirvana. Discard all those lower caste brands name bows and come to the Happy Universe!!
> 
> Then this thing can end.


Roger, how disinteresting would it be if there were no old PSEs in the shooting group to pick on??? 

FYI, I won't buy a Mathews any time soon....................but, I sure wouldn't mind shooting 'em. Shot a couple Apex's, and they shot and hold very well. Wouldn't mind trying an A7 because it has the specs that would make a good all around (particularly 3D) bow for me. :thumbs_up 

Won't mind beating them either.


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## stehawk

rsw said:


> I think this thread has worn itself out. All you archers, envious of the Mathews universe, should just go buy a Switchback or Apex 7 and achieve Nirvana. Discard all those lower caste brands name bows and come to the Happy Universe!!
> 
> Then this thing can end.


 Who said you didn't have a sense of humor.:teeth: If you'd just loan me the money I'd like to have a new Switchback. Then again, I'd like to have just about any new bow. They all advertise to be the best in the world I think I'll just make my own.  Got any spare osage and flint you can loan me? :RockOn: :banana:  


VIVA NCWID!!!!!!!!:teeth:


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## Perfectionist

stehawk said:


> Honestly it sounds like the same as creep tuning with creep tuning not adjusting or compensating for as much correction. Can the same results be obtained ----by the twisting of the buzz cables during creep tuning as by the loosening the limb in tiller tuning? I do walk back tuning to correct my center shot. Thanks, this is very interesting to me.


The main difference with tiller tuning and other tuning methods is that you only adjust one limb. This creates uneven pull between the top and bottom wheel. So, if you loosen the bottom limb, then the bottom limb will flex more, and have more travel, and will raise the nock point. By twisting or untwisting the buss cable, you are changing the rotation of the cam, but the limbs will continue to have the same amount of pull.

Now your question about whether the same results can be achieved? hmm... this is a two part answer. If you are trying to set the timing of the cams (on a 2 cam bow), then the answer is no. Tiller tuning will actual hurt a 2 cam bow, because the amount of rotation on the top cam will be different than the bottom cam. If for example, the top limb is tighter than the bottom, then the bottom limb will flex more and the bottom cam will rotate more. You will be hitting the back wall of the bottom cam before the top cam, even though they are aligned at rest. Compare this to twisting the cable to align the cams... Twisting the cable will get both cams aligned at rest.. Assuming the cams will rotate the same amount (assuming that it is at even tiller), thus the cams will be aligned at full draw. You can see the effect of tiller tuning on a 2 cam by loosening one limb, and examining the cam alignment at static. Then draw the bow and examine the cam alignment at full draw. They will be different. Of course, the more uneven the tiller, the more pronounced the alignment difference will be.

Now on a single cam bow, the bottom cam will never be out of time with the top wheel. However, by twisting the cable, you are changing the rotation starting point of the cam. This will change the draw weight and draw length, but will not necessarily move the nock. The single cam is a dual feed system. If you rotate the cam, both feeds will move the same amount, either gathering more or releasing more bowstring. If you have a single cam bow, you can see this by holding the bow at static, and gently pulling on the cable. The cam will rotate, but the nock point will not move up or down.


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## Perfectionist

stehawk said:


> I do walk back tuning to correct my center shot.


Ooops... my bad. I read creep tuning, but the brain registered walk-back tuning. :embara:


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## Hoyt PowerTec

Don't worry, I won't. I'm a Hoyt man all the way. Always.


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## stehawk

Perfectionist said:


> The main difference with tiller tuning and other tuning methods is that you only adjust one limb. This creates uneven pull between the top and bottom wheel. So, if you loosen the bottom limb, then the bottom limb will flex more, and have more travel, and will raise the nock point. By twisting or untwisting the buss cable, you are changing the rotation of the cam, but the limbs will continue to have the same amount of pull.
> 
> Now your question about whether the same results can be achieved? hmm... this is a two part answer. If you are trying to set the timing of the cams (on a 2 cam bow), then the answer is no. Tiller tuning will actual hurt a 2 cam bow, because the amount of rotation on the top cam will be different than the bottom cam. If for example, the top limb is tighter than the bottom, then the bottom limb will flex more and the bottom cam will rotate more. You will be hitting the back wall of the bottom cam before the top cam, even though they are aligned at rest. Compare this to twisting the cable to align the cams... Twisting the cable will get both cams aligned at rest.. Assuming the cams will rotate the same amount (assuming that it is at even tiller), thus the cams will be aligned at full draw. You can see the effect of tiller tuning on a 2 cam by loosening one limb, and examining the cam alignment at static. Then draw the bow and examine the cam alignment at full draw. They will be different. Of course, the more uneven the tiller, the more pronounced the alignment difference will be.
> 
> Now on a single cam bow, the bottom cam will never be out of time with the top wheel. However, by twisting the cable, you are changing the rotation starting point of the cam. This will change the draw weight and draw length, but will not necessarily move the nock. The single cam is a dual feed system. If you rotate the cam, both feeds will move the same amount, either gathering more or releasing more bowstring. If you have a single cam bow, you can see this by holding the bow at static, and gently pulling on the cable. The cam will rotate, but the nock point will not move up or down.



Thanks, that clarifies some of my  I've got a single cam I hunt with and will continue to do so. Nonetheless, I've got a two cam I've changed cams and strings on and haven't gotten it to my satisfaction yet. It won't be long now though. Thanks again, and have a great day.


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## arkhotrock

*thread go away*

thread i spit at thee. from hells heart i stab at thee die thread die


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## beetle

ROFL!














arkhotrock said:


> thread i spit at thee. from hells heart i stab at thee die thread die


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## stehawk

arkhotrock said:


> thread i spit at thee. from hells heart i stab at thee die thread die



 :mg: A voice from the Dark Side.?  :thumbs_up


----------



## Lordform

*Always love a Star Trek Reference*



arkhotrock said:


> thread i spit at thee. from hells heart i stab at thee die thread die


Kahn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless you were quoting Capatain Ahab directly, and not quoting Kahn quoting Captain Ahab.......which is still pretty cool


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## bowhntrmagnate

Lordform said:


> Kahn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Unless you were quoting Capatain Ahab directly, and not quoting Kahn quoting Captain Ahab.......which is still pretty cool



Ive had the same trouble with mathews. I can relate .

Cool that you knew a line from Star trek like that. You MUST be a trekkie!


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## appalachianhunt

mathews is the winningest technology EVER!\\\\\\\\\\


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## Stokedcutlass

Poor misguided youth
Why in the name Zeus' butthole would you bring this thread back


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fletched

Did he ever get his roller gaurd?


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## BAMBRANCH

I think I replaced a dozen of them over the years no ? asked. I just caniblized it from a warrenty part or something like that. I thought I posted this before but I guess someone really had to dig for this thread. Its sad how far people will go to bash Mathews.........


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## Stokedcutlass

BAMBRANCH said:


> I think I replaced a dozen of them over the years no ? asked. I just caniblized it from a warrenty part or something like that. I thought I posted this before but I guess someone really had to dig for this thread. Its sad how far people will go to bash Mathews.........


Actually it would seem he's a mathews fanboy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BAMBRANCH

Stokedcutlass said:


> Actually it would seem he's a mathews fanboy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am pretty sure hes being sarcastic....


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## Valblok

I read a few pages before seeing how old this is... fool.


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## Stokedcutlass

I kinda figured, I was trying to get a rise outta him by calling him a Mathews fanboy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J Whittington

Wish I were allowed to express my my experiences with one of mathews employees. But AT rules won't allow it. It's not their bows I have a problem with, I've owned several and they did shoot pretty good.


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## jdnailtx

I own my own business, and that actually is good policy by Mathews. A reputable company, does not compete with it's dealers on price. That is a way to lose your dealer network. Your problem should be with Jet Outdoors and the gouging that they are doing. I refuse to use vendors in my business that compete with me for the same customers. On the other hand, I sell products at a fair price with a fair markup that reflects well on the vendor's product.


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## canuck4570

my experience with Mathew that made me buy another brand of bow is this
ask my Dealer a question could not answer
decided to call Mathew.... had a hard time finding it after posting some post on the mathew forum asking where I could find the phone number I had someone PM me from Mathew with the phone number
I call them and they told me to refer to my dealer I told them he did not know the answer to my question 
reply........ call your dealer and he will contact us and we will answer him in order for him to answer you

well Mathew you just lost a customer because of you CS


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## J Whittington

they lost me as a cutomer for the following reasons. Lying arrogance exhibited by a person who is very good at lying and blackmailing people...and not punishing a pro who attempted to cheat at ASA this year.... I'll spill the beans if AT wont ban me.


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## Widgeon

Holy 2005 Batman!


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## DoWorkSon

If LordForm cannot understand why Mathews dealers won't ship into another dealer's district, then, I feel really sorry for him, because it is pretty obvious. 

Fail!


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## Lazerbeans

I wonder if we would have the same amount of adamant defense if he was talking about a Bear? I bet this thread would have died three pages in, if that many. But I freely admit I am not a big Mathews fan, mostly because I do not want to be guilty but association. Bash/flame me if you will, its my opinion and I am entitled to it.


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## midwestbowhunt

Seriously? How old is this thread?


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## J Whittington

appalachianhunt said:


> mathews is the winningest technology EVER!\\\\\\\\\\


that may be true but they have more sponsored shooters than everyone else combined! Odds in their favor.


----------

