# shoulder pain and steadiness



## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)

I have a 2008 diamond marquis (65% letoff) at 56# that I set up for target with 4oz on front stabilizer and 14 on back. Didn’t feel heavy and I could l hold it fairly steady. Recently bought a 50# Hoyt Pro Force (85% letoff). Put same stabilizers on new bow but found that I was shaking all over the place and my left shoulder would hurt after 10 or so shots. Decided to take all weights off stabilizers and get used to the bow like that. Holding much steadier without weight on stabilizers but shoulder pain continues. When setting up, I try to relax and lower my shoulders prior to the draw, pull my bow up into position (aiming generally towards target), rotate my bowhand until lifeline just slides off to the left, and draw. Everything pretty much the same as with my old bow but can’t understand why I continue to get shoulder pain given that I was previously drawing more weight with less letoff. I am debating getting the 70% mods for the Hoyt to see if more holding weight is better. Wondering if others have thoughts on how I can reduce shoulder pain and, less importantly, why I am steadier with no stab weights.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Post photo of you at full draw, dead level arrow with the 2008 Diamond Marquis.
Post photo of you at full draw, dead level arrow with the Hoyt Pro Force.
Wear shoes. Have camera at shoulder height. Clamp your camera phone to a ladder if necessary.
Have the ladder and camera far away enough we can see the ground, your shoes, and all of you and all of the bow,
and all of the stabilizers in the photo.


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## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)

I'm going to guess that I will need to retake these because I am not as level as I thought but here is my pro force:









and here is my diamond


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Draw length is 2 inches too long on the Diamond.
Pro Force is only 1-inch too long on the Hoyt. So, if you like how you shoot, when shooting 2-inches too long, then, get an even longer too long cam, so you can lean backwards even more
on the Hoyt, just like the Diamond.









I leveled out your arrow, so that is how far away you are from getting the bow hand HIGH enough, to get a dead level arrow. If you want to point an arrow downhill, you need the left armpit FORWARDS of the left ankle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MIDDLE photo is the diamond draw length. YOu have become used to putting a backwards curve in the middle of your backbone. So, when I overlay the yellow shadow (diamond draw length) on the Pro Force, you are still leaning backwards, just not leaning backwards as much. You are not used to this shorter, but still too long draw length, so your muscles are rebelling. Left photo, is what I would recommend, for the diamond draw length, 1-2-inches shorter, so you are actually leaning forwards when pointing the arrow downhill. Notice that when I have you leaning forwards (left armpit forwards of left ankle), the right elbow has to swing higher, when you point the arrow at the floor.


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## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)

Interesting if confusing. I have been making more of an effort to stand upright but I can see that I am still leaning pretty bad. Maybe I will take more pics of myself during practice to make corrections. What is really confusing is that the diamond is a 29" draw length and the proforce is 29.5". So I assume that I must be creeping forward. The proforce is the one that has been hurting my shoulder so I will try taking some draw length off of it, which, it sounds like will help me stand up straighter and relieve some pressure on my shoulders.


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## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)

I shortened up my pro force draw length by 1". Can definitely feel the back wall better but harder to get my nose on the sting without tipping my head forward.


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## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)




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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Wear a short sleeve shirt next time. Long sleeve, I have to GUESS where the elbows are located.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Much better than before. Now, you have a slightly high right shoulder, and nope...arrow is not dead level, still pointing slightly downhill. So, release shoulder is sky high, and bow shoulder is too low. Tops of shoulders, the collar bones need to be parallel to the arrow. Your chin is too low. Neck needs to be 90 degrees to the arrow. So, if the arrow were truly LEVEL, then, your head/neck needs to be level. 

These photos show you much your chin is too low (peep is too low),
and how much the bow hand needs to rise UP
and how much the collar bones need to swing, to get the collar bones level.

WHY so picky? Cuz, you said things hurt, and this is the path to getting to pain free.









Blue lines are parallel to the arrow. So, yellow line connects top of ear to the eyebrow. Your original pic is on the right. HEAD is dipped down too low. Original pic on the right, shows the collar bones not parallel to the arrow, RIGHT shoulder hiked up too high, and LEFT shoulder down too low. I fixed the body parts rotation on the left, to show you the difference.

Watch this video by GRIV and see if his method works to drop your right shoulder down, and to get left shoulder/collar bone to swing UP.


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## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)

Thank you very much for this help, this is an amazing resource. I can see the problems you describe but it looks like fixing them will be a little tougher than I thought. I see that I am still really leaning despite it not feeling like I am. I also notice that with dropping my right shoulder a bit I am having more difficulty getting my nose on the string at this shorter draw length. I will move my peep up but do I also need to anchor higher to get the string on my nose? I think I will set up a mirror to work on the lean and shoulder alignment. I really appreciate the "pickiness" because I want to cut down on this shoulder pain.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Larsonec9 said:


> Thank you very much for this help, this is an amazing resource. I can see the problems you describe but it looks like fixing them will be a little tougher than I thought. I see that I am still really leaning despite it not feeling like I am. I also notice that with dropping my right shoulder a bit I am having more difficulty getting my nose on the string at this shorter draw length. I will move my peep up but do I also need to anchor higher to get the string on my nose? I think I will set up a mirror to work on the lean and shoulder alignment. I really appreciate the "pickiness" because I want to cut down on this shoulder pain.


I wouldn't worry about moving your peep to fit a form that you don't want. Get your shooting posture straightened out first and then you can move the peep to fit properly. When you're working on not leaning back, if you don't feel like you're leaning forwards, you will be leaning backwards. Your "upright" is actually leaning back so if you feel like you're leaning forwards, chances are you'll be closer to upright.


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## Larsonec9 (Aug 17, 2020)

Mirror has been helpful in getting me to move my hips back and to level my shoulders. Feels more solid now. Will give it the test of time but shoulder feels better already.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Larsonec9 said:


> Mirror has been helpful in getting me to move my hips back and to level my shoulders. Feels more solid now. Will give it the test of time but shoulder feels better already.


Stand at full draw, and walk towards a shoulder high target. Stop when the end of the front stab is 4-inches away from touching the target. You will be leaning backwards, as always, and "glue" your feet to the floor.

So, now what?
Well, bend at the belly button and push your left armpit FORWARDS of your left ankle
and force the end of the front stab to touch the target, 4-inches away from the end of the front stab.

But, it FEELS like I am falling forwards? Check mirror. You are not falling forwards.
Forcing the end of the front stab will take the S=Curve out of your spine.

Get used to the FEEL of a vertical backbone, with left armpit FORWARDS of left ankle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Stand at full draw, walk towards a shoulder high target while at full draw. Stop when end of front stab is 6-INcHES away from touching the target. Plant your feet, and then, move left armpit FORWARDS of left ankle. Yeah, your left armpit needs to swing 6-inches FORWARDS.










The draw length is actually pretty close. Just posture is extremely out of whack. You have nearly 90% of weight on the right ankle. It will FEEL like you are standing on one leg, just your left ankle, when you finally get middle of neck to hover at the midpoint between ankles, and left armpit actually FORWARDS of left ankle.

You can see the double image of the round adjusting knob for your sight. Darn near 6-inches forwards.


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