# Point Differential.



## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

BHO vs BHR: I would say for the average guys on 40 targets, a handicap of 10 is fair.

BHR vs Hunter: I would say 10 points as well, as Hunter has a 40 yard max. 

BHO, BHR or Hunter vs Traditional: 175 points

This is just an average of what I have seen throughout the past few summers. I actually think handicaps need to be established on a course by course basis. There are some courses that are very difficult and others that are not, some of reason is terrain, types of targets (big or small), the max distance of the shoots and the average distance of the shots. Also, most clubs have there own rules, this plays into it as well. I was at a shoot earlier in the summer and the organizer had a max distance of 62 yards but didn't tell anyone and the average shot was 40+ yards, scores where all over the place. The average handicap wouldn't have made any sense on this course. I think the point spread between the top BHO score and everyone else on the 40 targets was over a 100 points. The next shoot the same organizer had was more like the common courses and the scores were average and made sense. So, establishing handicaps is unique to the course in my opinion.

Also, there are lots of BHR and Hunter class competitors that don't need any handicap.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

It is something I'm thinking about now. Luckily our shoot is just for fun and a trophy so if we don't get it right first go we can can learn for next time.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Bigjono.....your thread was timely.

A friend an I have been discussing this for a year or so......and a fair amount in the last couple of days.

There are some interesting opinions and valid points both ways.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Ya, BHO spot me 10 points


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

For us, having 2 different disciplines in one day helps. Not all good 3D shooters are good spot shooters and vice versa so we can set reasonable levels.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Most good 3D shooters are good spot shooters as well, shooting is shooting! If you can hit an unknown spot at unknown distance you can surley hit a fixed spot at 20.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Bow bandit said:


> Ya, BHO spot me 10 points


The one exception to the rule, you only get 2 points :mg:


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

when I played with the oly guys with my ru set up on target faces it was a point up game instead. 
example, any yellow was a 10 for me, and any red was a nine, anything outside that was what it was.
same would apply to 3d trad shoots 8 gets 10, 10 is 11 and 5 stays 5. it kept things competitive and fun.

wayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Bow bandit said:


> Most good 3D shooters are good spot shooters as well, shooting is shooting! If you can hit an unknown spot at unknown distance you can surley hit a fixed spot at 20.


Unless you are comfortable shooting indoors on a crowded line it can get tricky. I don't think being good at 3D guarantees you will be good at 300 rounds.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Over the years I have shot in many leagues with all kind of handicap systems, most fail miserably in there intent and ultimately get discontinued. What I have seen is that some work in certain areas based on the level of competitors they have, while one system that may work at HAHA will not at Caledon simply due to scores being shot but mostly due to the score fall off in each division. A place in Port Huron had a nice way, they broke the group up into a few base divisions, trad ( included Recurve), sights and fingers and sights and release, from there they used a different handicap system for each group. They always had great turnout for league night. Another I thought was interesting was that the league had to submit 3 scores for Trad, 3 for sights/fingers and 3 for sights/release, granted it required different setups but they still had good turnouts for it


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

This isn't a league, it's a one off shoot to break the winter monotony. Last time I checked, most guys shoot for fun and that's the aim of this shoot.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Handicap by tracked experience? lol im not completely sure but very interested to see where this idea goes!

As for the Bow Bunny, i think the only handicap we will get out of him is if he gives me a limb in a grappling match! lol might be my best shot of beating ya this year Blake! But I'll keep tryin.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

If you want to take a few points off Bow Bunny, just preface everything you tell him during a shoot with "Dietmar says..."


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Bigjono said:


> This isn't a league, it's a one off shoot to break the winter monotony. Last time I checked, most guys shoot for fun and that's the aim of this shoot.


Fun,that's the aim of any shoot I have ever been to. If its going to be a one of then you could do just about anything


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

FiFi said:


> Fun,that's the aim of any shoot I have ever been to. If its going to be a one of then you could do just about anything


We can but it needs to be fair as well, that's the challenge.


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## Hyde72 (May 31, 2012)

Mixed shoot sounds like fun! Any thoughts to a rule about using the same bow and arrows for the 3d round and target? Might be interesting shooting a 70lb bow for the target portion!


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

So I like where this is going.....but I really am interested in is......

If I go out to shoot a round of 40 targets with a friend. He shoots BHR and I shoot BHO....how many point do I have to spot him.....say if we were going to gamble?

$5 for the winner....and I'll spot you 50 points!

Or $2 and I will give you 3 points on a 40 target range!!!!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm guessing a point per target is reasonable for most shooters. I'd take that spread shooting RU against MBO too


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

A point per target from BHR to MBO?

So I would spot them 40 points on 40 targets?

I'm going back to BHR.

That seems steep to me.....but that's just me.

Thanks for the opinion.......keep it coming!!!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

It may be, I don't pay much attention to the exploits of compounds so I would have to look into it more. Maybe 10 points per 20 targets might be closer.


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Stash said:


> If you want to take a few points off Bow Bunny, just preface everything you tell him during a shoot with "Dietmar says..."


:set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud:
That's funny rite there


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

if you look at the last 2 years results from BHO and BHR and you look at the drop off from 1st to 10th you can have an idea of a differential in competitive scores, in 2013 the difference was 103 and in 2014 it was 44 for BHO and for BHR it was 159 in 2013 and in 2014 it was 108, the over all difference in 2013 was 56 between the two divisions and in 2014 the difference was 64 each score difference based on 80 targets, over 40 targets its 28 and 32 respectively, per target its .7 and .8 respectively so giving BHR a 1 point per target would be the closest handicap against BHO


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Who's Dietmar? Never heard of him!


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

One point per target, this is going to be fun )


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Ya 1 point for you is a lot but for the average it would be about right. It doesn't really matter for the higher end shoot with regard to handicaps. If it was adjusted to bring the higher level shooters down equal it would require the lower levels the ability to shoot above a clean score, one of the reasons most higher level shooters don't participate in handicapped events. Now you take a system that puts them out of their comfort zone then you might have something, like shooting a round with BHR set up and then one using Trad equipment


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

FIFi.....I too looked back at the scores from the last 6 years OAA 3D championship.

I only did the math on the top three shooters.......not top 10.

The last two years....the score differential was much bigger than the four years previous to that.

It was significant.

Was that because the course we're not as challenging? More challenging? Location that has brought out more / better shooters to the 3D championship?

If you averaged out the top three scores in BHR and BHO and did a point differential between them......and ten averaged out that number.....you come out with a 12 point difference between BHR and BHO on the 80 target Provincial shoot.

I'm with Me. Piette.....10 per 40 targets seems fair.....I would even go as high as 15 depending on the course.

Interesting to hear different.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

If you remove the first place people in both BHO and BHR, only looking at 2 to 4, the average point spread on 40 is somewhere between 15 and 18 in reality. The stats get scewd as there is a huge difference between 1st and 2nd in BHR year after year, sometimes by as much as 70 points on 80 targets. While BHO is pretty competitive, usually only separated by Xs or a point or two. For whatever reason one person chooses to dominate a class year after year where there is absolutely no chance anyone can beat him.


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## hotwheels (Dec 5, 2006)

IMHO
Freestyle BHO and and mbr is there a difference 
More of a personnel choice 
I can't see multiple pins very well
I use a single pin and 9 times out of 10 no lens 
So if all things being the same 
Same bow
Same stab setup
Single pin vrs multipin
Why should mbo give points to mbr 
Just food for thought 

FIFi mentioned 
Trad vrs fingers with sight vrs release with sight
That would be a good back to basics step

With respect to 3d have a non competitive class 
To build the sport 
Many ppl new to the sport get intimidated by a mosquito target 
At 40 yards 
Loose an arrow maybe loose several arrows in a day
What fun is that sure makes a person say well this isn't fun!!
And they don't com back 
Don't we want to build the sport?

Just a thought


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

problem with numbers is from year to year and different location and different course...politicians crunch numbers in their favor all the time....


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey Robert, when the guy winning with pins shooting the same course on the same stakes as open shoots higher scores than the open guys what does it matter where he shoots he is going to win! He also shoots the open money shoots with pins and wins, so what is your point? The guy who practices most wil usually win!


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Bow bandit said:


> Hey Robert, when the guy winning with pins shooting the same course on the same stakes as open shoots higher scores than the open guys what does it matter where he shoots he is going to win! He also shoots the open money shoots with pins and wins, so what is your point? The guy who practices most wil usually win!


I guess you made the point for me, when comparing BHR and BHO for the establishment of a handicap, including an individual in BHR that far exceeds the general talent pool of that class doesn't make sense. If someone in BHR is on par or exceeds BHO/Open, including them in stats to establish a handicap for BHR in general or allowing them a handicap serves no purpose. When looking at the OAA 3D scores over the past few years, it's clear there is a single person that fits this scenario, and they need to be removed when attempting to establish a handicap. 

Also, this isn't a debate about fixed pins versus movable sites, and which is best. I know guys/girls that shoot better with fixed pins and choose to compete in Open. This is about the general skill/talent pool that chooses to compete in each class and the establishment of a general handicap that equalizes the difference of the average competitor. 

Also, there is no question about it, the person that puts the most effort into refining there skills, usually wins, but that's not what this is about.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

It does make it hard when one person is so far ahead in that class they can skew the numbers. I think if it's a fun shoot those guys would probably choose to shoot even and test themselves against uneven odds. You don't get that good without being competitive.


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## crkelly (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok so how many points would be given to the archers over 50. Remember most of you will cross that line in the near future and body parts will start to have a mind of their own.
Besides it's customary in this country to offer things like discounts and such in respect of the older and wiser among you. Behave yourself Jason. LOL


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Charles you love kicking the young guys asses. .they can see and are stronger and have endurance... compared to us seniors .. but we have years of experience. sometimes the biggest asset.


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## ArcherMan (Feb 13, 2014)

Bow bandit said:


> Hey Robert, when the guy winning with pins shooting the same course on the same stakes as open shoots higher scores than the open guys what does it matter where he shoots he is going to win! He also shoots the open money shoots with pins and wins, so what is your point? The guy who practices most wil usually win!


Hello Mr Bunny.!?.
It look like you have not been 'best' the last 2 year.?!
It look like K50 class has the highest scores.!?.
They beat your Bunny by lots 
Good luck next time


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

crkelly said:


> Ok so how many points would be given to the archers over 50. Remember most of you will cross that line in the near future and body parts will start to have a mind of their own.
> Besides it's customary in this country to offer things like discounts and such in respect of the older and wiser among you. Behave yourself Jason. LOL


I've just passed 50 and I want points off no one so why would anyone else?


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## stjoebowhunter (Mar 12, 2011)

Bow bandit said:


> Hey Robert, when the guy winning with pins shooting the same course on the same stakes as open shoots higher scores than the open guys what does it matter where he shoots he is going to win! He also shoots the open money shoots with pins and wins, so what is your point? The guy who practices most wil usually win!


If thats the case move up and shoot BHO this year!!


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## crkelly (Mar 17, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> I've just passed 50 and I want points off no one so why would anyone else?


Because it's being offered .


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

JDoupe said:


> FIFi.....I too looked back at the scores from the last 6 years OAA 3D championship.
> 
> I only did the math on the top three shooters.......not top 10.
> 
> ...


2013 was York a much harder course and 2014 was Kingsville/Gesto with a softer course so would say, if you are going to take and average you need to include a number that would actually give a reasonable comparison, that's why I used top 10 and between York and Gesto had a .7 and .8 difference so course hardness doesn't really play in to averages since both good and lower will average similarly , as well you need to include a real possible entry number, is there likely to be 3 BHO and BHR shooters or more than that at any given tournament, the purpose of the Handicap system is to give a point differential to them that would give an imagined competitive game, lets say Blake is a scratch shooter in 3D in order for a mid level shooter to play a 3D game against him they would most likely need a 1 point per target or have Blake shoot the inner for a 10 and the other the outer for a 10. This would also apply from class to class, remember if you only include the top three you leave out the rest and those are the ones that need it most, Many years ago we did have individual handicaps per archer on several rounds, you might be a 0 handicap in 3D but a 25 in field or 7 for indoor 10 ring etc.........now this did work for while but ultimately sandbagging seemed to cause its demise


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey Ted you should give the guys that shoot pins in open cash class a handicap against those hard to beat scope guys !!! It might attract some more people.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

That Escalated Quickly.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

So a honest thread on proposing handicapping points has degraded to a piss up ... haha, who is this bb? sounds like a pompous dick


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

"ok, 10 more points on your next shot then..."


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## stjoebowhunter (Mar 12, 2011)

Lmao^^


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Sooo........you can't compare K50 to Unmarked 3D. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2269061

That also being said.......I think many people are reading more into this than was originally intended.



ME: Hey Friendo! Wanna put down $5, winner at the end of the day take home the $$$?

Friendo: I think you have a bit of an advantage with that there fancy scope you shoot! I don't want to give my money away.

Me: I'll spot you some points?

Friendo: How many?

(Long blank stare ensues for a half hour without a word spoken while both individuals ponder)

ME: I know! I'll pose the question to some really nice, really knowledgeable guys on AT and they will give me the answers I need! What could go wrong? 



I think 10 is fair...........handicaps never work out in the end.......I would love to be spotted 10 points....we're not talking about you....how about 40?.....somebody should try and shoot traditional...you're an exception.......You should practice more..........I'n just saying......I question your sexuality and I don't like boys....we are all correct in our thinking!!!!!


Original Poster sits clutching his furrowed brow between his finger and thumb while shaking his head. 

ME: D'OH!


(Some names and even parts of this story may have been changed to protect the innocent....and embellish the story just a little. That being said....it's much more entertaining to read this re-cap than to waste time reading from the beginning.)


I would like to genuinely thank everyone who genuinely participated in this thread.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

archerman needs a green card! That could be the only reason.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

stjoebowhunter said:


> If thats the case move up and shoot BHO this year!!


Pay attention! I did shoot open last year with pins and won money every time! So again I ask what's the difference?


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

JDoupe said:


> Sooo........you can't compare K50 to Unmarked 3D.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2269061
> 
> ...


This is why it is almost a waste of time asking things on this website anymore JD. Some people go way to far. Almost sexualy prejudice and rasist. Ie: the greencard crap. Its just to much. Shoot. Have fun. Enjoy the outdoors. Its just archery


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## Flatliner396 (Oct 6, 2013)

Having experience with this system in billiards let me tell you this system promotes sand baggers and should not be used in a tournament format. Gambling Only!!


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## greygrouse (Mar 22, 2012)

JD, If you want to gamble, shoot skins. The overall score wouldn't matter; however, you could still handicap the archers. For instance, you have to shoot an X while ?---only needs a 10 to match you on that target. You could try this format when you shoot with friends on the practise range. But at tournaments...sandbagging is the polite word for what can happen. Interesting idea though.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

greygrouse said:


> JD, If you want to gamble, shoot skins. The overall score wouldn't matter; however, you could still handicap the archers. For instance, you have to shoot an X while ?---only needs a 10 to match you on that target. You could try this format when you shoot with friends on the practise range. But at tournaments...sandbagging is the polite word for what can happen. Interesting idea though.


The Cancer shoot at the BowShop has been doing this for several years now and from a score point it actually kinda works, compound shoots for X,s and Recurve shoots for 10,s. I shot off against Crispin last year with my xbow, he got me by a point, certainly kept things tight


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

Flatliner396 said:


> Having experience with this system in billiards let me tell you this system promotes sand baggers and should not be used in a tournament format. Gambling Only!!


Is sandbagging like having multiple user names on AT to hide behind?:wink:


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Skins sounds good.....but BHO shooting an X and BHR only having to shoot the 10 for equal score....is a 40 point point differential

personally.....and this is just my opinion.....that is too great of a point differential..

Guess ill just have to practice more so I can overcome that 40 point difference.


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

JDoupe said:


> Skins sounds good.....but BHO shooting an X and BHR only having to shoot the 10 for equal score....is a 40 point point differential
> 
> personally.....and this is just my opinion.....that is too great of a point differential..
> 
> Guess ill just have to practice more so I can overcome that 40 point difference.


Spot me 40 points and you will still beat me J! :embara:


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

JDoupe said:


> Skins sounds good.....but BHO shooting an X and BHR only having to shoot the 10 for equal score....is a 40 point point differential
> 
> personally.....and this is just my opinion.....that is too great of a point differential..
> 
> Guess ill just have to practice more so I can overcome that 40 point difference.


If I have a side bet with a friend at a shoot (usually for lunch), I set a handicap the forces me to shoot above my average. I know what I am capable of and what my friend averages, I set the handicap so that for me to win, I would have to have an exceptional day if they where just having an average day. So if you average between 400 to 410 and they average between 380 to 390 on 40 targets, set the handicap at 25 and challenge yourself.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

you guys with compounds...lol what ever happened to heads up..I`LL BEAT U TODAY BET FOR LUNCH.... only paper work needed is score card.... lol lol


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> you guys with compounds...lol what ever happened to heads up..I`LL BEAT U TODAY BET FOR LUNCH.... only paper work needed is score card.... lol lol


You guys with trad bows...never show up to competitive shoots but complain all the time there is no trad class. 
Going to Winter Cam this year to represent trad guys Ted...or just going to ***** and moan there is no trad class?
Only paperwork required is a passport.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Wintercam, with all due respect is just a Mickey Mouse shoot. If you want a shoot why not do Lancaster.


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## crkelly (Mar 17, 2011)

Well my dad is bigger than your dad. And all I want is brownie points. LOL Keep the bets small and between friends Jason and just have fun.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

I gamble a fair amount.....but most of the time it's for a toonie.....or maybe a five spot.

Once it goes above that.......it starts to suck to loose.

I like it when monads gets hurt. Mostly it's just the fact that you have to hand your buddy a toonie.....or be handed a toonie....that makes it a lot of fun in the end.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

...and always between friends.

That's what makes it fun!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

redneckhillbilly I"ve been to lots of shoots. .probably more than you... and have shot wintercam already ..2 yrs ago...and won my class when there was 6 shooters there...should do your homework before calling some one out..


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> redneckhillbilly I"ve been to lots of shoots. .probably more than you... and have shot wintercam already ..2 yrs ago...and won my class when there was 6 shooters there...should do your homework before calling some one out..


Ok...Ted....you may have missed my point. 
I was *not* calling you out your ability to shoot. 
I was calling you out on your_ inability_ not to complain about every shoot. 
I was calling you out on your _inability_ not to constantly attempt to divide archers.

On your advice though...I did some homework. 
Seems you are the only one to claim winning the WCC 2 years ago. See your post below from the WCC thread. 

_"I was there one year and 6 of us.shot 2 yrs ago. *they lost my score even though I won*.. no big deal my name doesn`t even show... but the ladies had problems as well put hunterclass against open.. with the numbers and entry fee paid even nice 40 dollar trophies could be awarded to every class top three as well as prizes..... costly after hotel gas and food and entry.. good shoot for the compound guys.. but if you don`t cater to every class then it will plateau number wise and stay there.. imho.. again a great layout..but needs to be tweaked a bit...we had 25 trad shooters ..."_


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

rd neck man don`t know what ur problem is ... why are u quoting me..actually people like to know what a shoot is like...and I have been there I can give my 2 cents.. I thought this was like a PUBLIC forum.. if u don`t like what I say then don`t read my posts skip them...man u only read what u want I have constantly said its a great compound shoot and great venue and great PRIZES.. AND BY THE WAY I`M CALLING YOU OUT WHATS YOUR REAL NAME ..I at least fill in my profile... and promote archery not divide it... ...actually I invite comments re my shoot ...first thing I say at the awards presentation ..is there anything we can do to make it better.....hmmmm and I have not brought up my capabilities I think in this thread ..other than I can`t shoot like I used too.. and I can`t figure out your comment and my quote are you calling me a liar as it looks in your thread...remember I was there with guys like chris perkins, danny dodge, billy dodge, mike Wilson.. and I think Charles Kelly was there and dave McQuaker.. we all went together persay..do I need to say more...enough said ...I can back what I say...


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

oh and the 25 shooters in trad was in reference to my tournament at the pandp shoot in perth...


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Ok, so it's a point a target per division then. Ignore the best and the worst because you can't set levels based on their performance and it kinda works I think. Now I can go pack my bags for Wintercam ;-)


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

john you will probably make it into hunter shoot off with ur capabilities...


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

I can see 40 points between traditional and compound....maybe more...I don't really know.....but there is not a chance that there is a 40 point difference between BHO and BHR.

Not a chance.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

JDoupe said:


> I can see 40 points between traditional and compound....maybe more...I don't really know.....but there is not a chance that there is a 40 point difference between BHO and BHR.
> 
> Not a chance.


You could be right, I know nothing about the world of compound really. If we do this I will look at 3rd to 10th place at OAA champs and iBO champs to get the spread then go from there.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

I was not bashing you for your shoot......it's totally your shoot......set it up the way you set it up.

If I go.....I will shoot if I have to spot everyone 50 points. That being said.....it's nice to know going into it.

I honestly think BHR to BHO should be some where in the 8-15 
point differential on 40 targets.

Unsure traditional


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

For sure it should be more for traditional shooters of you are shooting from the same peg......probably huge if that's the case.

I hope your shoot goes well Bjono......and maybe there will be others.

If I were doing an outdoor shoot as such.....I would be shooting a hunter set up any way....

Good luck!!!


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