# Spot shooting dying-my thoughts



## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

I see the opposite happening here around Lynchburg. Our club's first pin shoot of the year turned out 35 shooters and it was poor weather. It rained off and on all day and was in the 40's temperature wise. I'm not sure who you are refering to about the eliteist group, but I have never seen this type of environment at the shoots that I attend. Most everyone that I know would give you the shirt off there back and help others in any way they can. Sorry, but I can't agree with your post.

Take care,

Kendall



doninva said:


> Here in Virginia, over the last few years, I've noticed spot shooting dying out and 3D's are doing fairly well. Up till recently, I have chalked this up to society and the pressures of work-family and other activities that take from everyone's time. After setting back and looking at the 30 years I've been shooting archery, I noticed a few things that has pushed me away from spot shoots. I have been lucky to shoot with some very good shooters, which I am not one. In my family there are at least 20 state championships in field archery and another 20 of friends. Most of these people are down to earth, hard working country people that will help anyone they can. There is also the click. These are the guys that are the elite. They have their group and if you aren't in it, your not worthy of their time. They seem to know everything and think your funny and either ignore you or make a smart remark about you or your equipment. These are the people that have killed the spot shooting in Va., in my opinion. My boy has won 5 state championships in the last 2 years and only wants to shoot spots. I try to support him in all his shooting but I would rather him be in 3D rather than the elite group that considers themselves better than everyone else. There are some GREAT people in spot shooting, who would give you the shirt off their back, but the eliteist group ruin it for a lot of people and will kill the spot shoots in Virginia very soon. We had 13 -7-10 shooters at the last 3 I went to. The end is in sight and its very sad but maybe after it goes away, a new breed of people will see the mistakes made and get it right. Don


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

That might be one of the most ridiculous things I have heard as to why field is dying...ANYWHERE.:embara:

I hear people say this about indoors....field....FITA....3D...and just guys shooting at the range....

But the funny thing is most see it actually the other way around....our clicks...we prefer to call them shooting friends are unapproachable....People think "we aren't in the "In Crowd" so we can't talk to them or shoot with them"...yada yada yada... why are you or anyone worried about who others are shooting with...or talk to? :noidea:

But when these Clicks show up people leave based on what gear we have and because there are more then 2 people together. What have you done to talk to these people that are killing field?

Why do you or anyone really care about a small group of 4-8 people that are out enjoying what they like to do...just ignore them...like they do you or whoever you think is getting the cold shoulder.

Just shoot...not everyone ANYPLACE gets along or is liked by all or will talk to or help all....

the same thing happens in 3D, Indoors, FITA, golf, fishing, pool, hell drinking at the bar....

these people that you think are killing field are the ONLY ones in the state keeping it alive....field is dying because people are shooting more 3D or they can't win so they quit.PERIOD.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

doninva said:


> Here in Virginia, over the last few years, I've noticed spot shooting dying out and 3D's are doing fairly well. Up till recently, I have chalked this up to society and the pressures of work-family and other activities that take from everyone's time. After setting back and looking at the 30 years I've been shooting archery, I noticed a few things that has pushed me away from spot shoots. I have been lucky to shoot with some very good shooters, which I am not one. In my family there are at least 20 state championships in field archery and another 20 of friends. Most of these people are down to earth, hard working country people that will help anyone they can. There is also the click. These are the guys that are the elite. They have their group and if you aren't in it, your not worthy of their time. They seem to know everything and think your funny and either ignore you or make a smart remark about you or your equipment. These are the people that have killed the spot shooting in Va., in my opinion. My boy has won 5 state championships in the last 2 years and only wants to shoot spots. I try to support him in all his shooting but I would rather him be in 3D rather than the elite group that considers themselves better than everyone else. There are some GREAT people in spot shooting, who would give you the shirt off their back, but the eliteist group ruin it for a lot of people and will kill the spot shoots in Virginia very soon. We had 13 -7-10 shooters at the last 3 I went to. The end is in sight and its very sad but maybe after it goes away, a new breed of people will see the mistakes made and get it right. Don


 Doninva: I always though Field archery is what we make of it, It is just as much your place to put archery before the public as it is for the elite shooter as you call them, whatever that means and don't let personalites get in the way. "Please"


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

Okay let me take a stab at this..........................

I guess you could call me one of the better shooters in the area (in field). As far as the the so called elitest mentality you say you see. In my experience mainly at my club and others close to here. If I offer advise to someone then I'm a know it all "throwin my knowledge/experience around" if I don't say anything then I'm an arrogant ***** that in unapproachable!!!!

I since have chosen to socialize with those that I know or approach me!!!

Not sure where Penhook is but bring your tail up here to MD and you'll have a blast, bring that little ankle biter too!!!!


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

As far as field archery dyeing......................I'd say that indoors you can pretty much take any setup and make if work fairly well for the average guy.

Outdoors is a whole new ball game, arrow flight matters, you need marks out to 80 or 90m if you wanna shoot FITA, there's ups and downs and sides and some just don't want to take the time to or care to work through these obsticles and decide that they will just shoot indoors. 

Trust me I'd shoot field all year if I could!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> Okay let me take a stab at this..........................
> 
> I guess you could call me one of the better shooters in the area (in field). As far as the the so called elitest mentality you say you see. In my experience mainly at my club and others close to here. If I offer advise to someone then I'm a know it all "throwin my knowledge/experience around" if I don't say anything then I'm an arrogant ***** that in unapproachable!!!!
> 
> ...



Exactly.....


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Cure the Problem*

When I first moved up here to the Northeast and started shooting Field Archery in the Senior division I noticed that there was a little cliquishness and very little talking at the target butts while pulling arrows. I took that as a personal challenge and started forcing these guys to talk and kidding with them. They clam up a little if you are beating them but you just keep making them talk and keep it light. After you do this for several shoots they will eventually get used to you and have a little fun. I don't think a few of these guys even remembered the last time archery was fun. I guess it is a difference in perspective. I wasn't raised to be intimidated by anyone and I won't be. A lot of people think the Pro's are stuck up and I find the opposite.
Some of the best friends I have made in Archery are some of the top pros in the game. They are just like anyone else, they want you to treat them like
you want to be treated and most of them enjoy helping you improve your game. If you are feeling shut out by those guys at your range, a lot of it is probably in your head. The rest can be overcome with persistence and aggressively engaging them. Funny that the ones who are the most stand offish are usually not the best shooters on the range. In general, the better the shooter, the more likely he is to interact with those he shoots with. Field archery is fun and if it isn't, make it fun.
Jbird


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Jbird said:


> When I first moved up here to the Northeast and started shooting Field Archery in the Senior division I noticed that there was a little cliquishness and very little talking at the target butts while pulling arrows. I took that as a personal challenge and started forcing these guys to talk and kidding with them. They clam up a little if you are beating them but you just keep making them talk and keep it light. After you do this for several shoots they will eventually get used to you and have a little fun. I don't think a few of these guys even remembered the last time archery was fun. I guess it is a difference in perspective. I wasn't raised to be intimidated by anyone and I won't be. A lot of people think the Pro's are stuck up and I find the opposite.
> Some of the best friends I have made in Archery are some of the top pros in the game. They are just like anyone else, they want you to treat them like
> you want to be treated and most of them enjoy helping you improve your game. If you are feeling shut out by those guys at your range, a lot of it is probably in your head. The rest can be overcome with persistence and aggressively engaging them. Funny that the ones who are the most stand offish are usually not the best shooters on the range.  In general, the better the shooter, the more likely he is to interact with those he shoots with. Field archery is fun and if it isn't, make it fun.
> Jbird


Thank you JB.

It seems a bit like a bowler talking about FIELD ARCHERY.

When you understand the intensity of this sport, it'll make sence why some seem to busy to talk to any one from the stake.

If I seem rude it's only because I'm not smart enough to have conversations while I shoot my game.
I can yak yak and shoot in the 520s or I can shoot only with my game and shoot near 550, So that's a really hard choice to make.

Maybe its my GAME and no one elses business. RUDE ?????


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Doyle*

I said talk while pulling arrows at the butt, not from the stake. Having shot Field Archery for seven years including four NFAA Outdoor Nationals I think I may understand the "intensity of the game". Your demeanor is your choice.
Having shot with GRIV, DC, Dougie Williams, and Jimmie Butts, I can tell you they have figured out a way to have fun between targets and relax a little.
Maybe that is why they are at the top of the food chain.:wink:
Jbird

P.S. I believe the guy that started this thread was talking about shooting at his club.


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> ....field is dying because people are shooting more 3D or they can't win so they quit.PERIOD.


:nod: :thumb: That's the way it happened here in western New York


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> When I first moved up here to the Northeast and started shooting Field Archery in the Senior division I noticed that there was a little cliquishness and very little talking at the target butts while pulling arrows. I took that as a personal challenge and started forcing these guys to talk and kidding with them. They clam up a little if you are beating them but you just keep making them talk and keep it light. After you do this for several shoots they will eventually get used to you and have a little fun. I don't think a few of these guys even remembered the last time archery was fun. I guess it is a difference in perspective. I wasn't raised to be intimidated by anyone and I won't be. A lot of people think the Pro's are stuck up and I find the opposite.
> Some of the best friends I have made in Archery are some of the top pros in the game. They are just like anyone else, they want you to treat them like
> you want to be treated and most of them enjoy helping you improve your game. If you are feeling shut out by those guys at your range, a lot of it is probably in your head. The rest can be overcome with persistence and aggressively engaging them. Funny that the ones who are the most stand offish are usually not the best shooters on the range. In general, the better the shooter, the more likely he is to interact with those he shoots with. Field archery is fun and if it isn't, make it fun.
> Jbird


:clap::clap: 

Very well put Jay....

I am the same way....I love to have fun and will talk about any and everything while shooting. But shut up while I am at the line...at least don't talk to me:wink: 

But I have found the same thing with the PROs and other big dawgs in our little archery world....there are a few people that I wouldn't care if their bow blew up on them...but the vast majority are just like the rest of us...and most people never know or realize this because THEY are intimidated.:wink:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

I'll tell you what JBird....................you go to a bigger indoor shoot and what the "majority" (not everyone) of competitiors and you will find, blank stares on the faces and you'd think each arrow was for a million $$$$.

COme to a field shoot and it's almost the exact opposite!!!!

Great insight by a great veteran of our game!!!

If I ain't havin' fun I ain't playin no more!!!


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I have yet to see anybody really unapproachable on the field range 

However I have seen PLENTY of people that are real stickler for the rules. They are uptight to such a point that they can drive some away from the game 

Shoot the wrong order... they want to take point’s away 

Don’t mover UP on a walk up and they want to take points away Ghessh didn’t they just kind of penalized themselves?


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Hinkelmonster said:


> I'll tell you what JBird....................you go to a bigger indoor shoot and what the "majority" (not everyone) of competitiors and you will find, blank stares on the faces and you'd think each arrow was for a million $$$$.
> 
> COme to a field shoot and it's almost the exact opposite!!!!
> 
> ...


Here's some insight from a rookie.. ain't even shot competitively for a year yet. I've bowhunted for longer than most of you have breathed, but.. that's different..the kill zone is waaaay larger than a 5 at 80.. 

My first venture into competitive archery was to manup and go to the Billy Hill last July. I couldn't get there early enough to shoot on Saturday, but I went up in the afternoon, thinkin I'd just shoot the CD shoot that afternoon. Well, when I walked up and found a few AT'rs standin round, I picked out a notable one and introduced myself. Since that time, I've only shot a few field shoots, and indoors this winter in a local league. Went to indoor states, shot my average and was satisfied. 

I have to say one thing. It's the other archers that I've met in these competitions that keep me wanting to shoot more of them. From the One that pointed out a couple handfuls of ATr's last July on the Hill, to all those I've shot with, including last year's NFAA Soy milk spokesperson, to many of those that post in this forum, yes, you too Hornet.. :lol: 

From the fear of returning on Sunday to shoot a field round, my first, on the Billy Hill, noted for it's difficulty, not even ever having shot an arrow at 80 yards, to the exhilaration at the end of the day that I'd shot a 495 my first time out, with a hunting rig, pin sighted to 60yds and rarely shot at that distance..... dude.. I was hooked... :thumb:

I have to say, in this area, the fellow archers that I've met have all be quite friendly, open, eager to help or lend advice, perhaps a bit of Woody's when I learned lesson #1. Camo shafts don't go well on field target butts, or.. lesson #2.. ALWAYS be sure to fully test your new scope out to the maximum shooting range..especially when it's a large diameter scope. :embara:  I've been helped by many.. from young to old.. I value this input, and equally share my limited knowledge and enthusiasm with anyone that cares to share it with me.

We will keep field archery alive in MD, and hopefully the surrounding areas... :wink: :cheers: Thanks to those who've made me feel at home and helped me along the way.. :yo: :cheers:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

centerx said:


> I have yet to see anybody really unapproachable on the field range
> 
> However I have seen PLENTY of people that are real stickler for the rules. They are uptight to such a point that they can drive some away from the game
> 
> ...


The rules are the rules. 

Think of it this way CenterX..................... if you were shooting indoors and the bottom line guy shot the top target..............the judges are there to enforce the rules....................but while outside you four are the judges policing each other. Every other competitor out there is relying on you to do the right thing!!!!


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Hinkelmonster said:


> The rules are the rules.
> 
> Think of it this way CenterX..................... if you were shooting indoors and the bottom line guy shot the top target..............the judges are there to enforce the rules....................but while outside you four are the judges policing each other. Every other competitor out there is relying on you to do the right thing!!!!


I've had em cut me some slack too.. I remember a shoot where I couldn't shoot the targets over 65 without skippin em downrange.... my shooting partners let me take an average score on those shots, rather than lettin me skip arrows at the archers ahead of us.... :lol: :wink:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

IGluIt4U said:


> I've had em cut me some slack too.. I remember a shoot where I couldn't shoot the targets over 65 without skippin em downrange.... my shooting partners let me take an average score on those shots, rather than lettin me skip arrows at the archers ahead of us.... :lol: :wink:


Well yes obviously there are times when allowing newbies and such to take some liberties...... that's just part of life!!! Not only archery, I mean when I take my daughter to the carnival they let her walk up and push the button to make the clown fall in the water and still give her a prize but they sure do make me dislocate my shoulder trying from what seems to be 1000 yards throwing what feels like a ping pong ball at a target the size of a pea............

But when it comes down too it I stand behind what I said!!!


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

doninva said:


> Here in Virginia, over the last few years, I've noticed spot shooting dying out and 3D's are doing fairly well. Up till recently, I have chalked this up to society and the pressures of work-family and other activities that take from everyone's time. After setting back and looking at the 30 years I've been shooting archery, I noticed a few things that has pushed me away from spot shoots. I have been lucky to shoot with some very good shooters, which I am not one. In my family there are at least 20 state championships in field archery and another 20 of friends. Most of these people are down to earth, hard working country people that will help anyone they can. There is also the click. These are the guys that are the elite. They have their group and if you aren't in it, your not worthy of their time. They seem to know everything and think your funny and either ignore you or make a smart remark about you or your equipment. These are the people that have killed the spot shooting in Va., in my opinion. My boy has won 5 state championships in the last 2 years and only wants to shoot spots. I try to support him in all his shooting but I would rather him be in 3D rather than the elite group that considers themselves better than everyone else. There are some GREAT people in spot shooting, who would give you the shirt off their back, but the eliteist group ruin it for a lot of people and will kill the spot shoots in Virginia very soon. We had *13 -7-10 *shooters at the last 3 I went to. The end is in sight and its very sad but maybe after it goes away, a new breed of people will see the mistakes made and get it right. Don


Don can I ask you where you got this info the field rounds in VA I shot in va this year had 25+ shooters and 2 of them were with horrible weather...

I hope you don't consider me in this elite gorup of people (who I have never seen or heard anybody speak of) but mabey im missing something..... I hope your opinion was misunderstood or mixed up by some of the guys you seen at the local 3D shoots cause this is the only place I ever seen people run in cliks around here... But at that its just a few who act this way... I;ve never met anyone on the field range who wasnt an open book to go out of their wat to help me or others out (especially beginners!!!)...

Sorry But I don't see your point.....

Respectfully,

Brad


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

centerx said:


> I have yet to see anybody really unapproachable on the field range
> 
> However I have seen PLENTY of people that are real stickler for the rules. They are uptight to such a point that they can drive some away from the game
> 
> ...



Rules are rules whats not to understand about that?????

Inquiring minds want to know.......:set1_thinking:

But Then I guess im biaised because im what you call a "stlickler"


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Hinkelmonster said:


> The rules are the rules.
> 
> Think of it this way CenterX..................... if you were shooting indoors and the bottom line guy shot the top target..............the judges are there to enforce the rules....................but while outside you four are the judges policing each other. Every other competitor out there is relying on you to do the right thing!!!!


I don't disagree to a point

But when you have a newbie or if you are in a place were you have a shoot or 2 a year and you are having a hard time getting more then 20 people to show up I think a little leway is order 

I will "forgive" an infaction on a field course once, especially on the targets that require an order of shooting. I have seen diffrent people from diffrent clubs start top down and others start bottom up.. other newbies just plain did not know and I guess in some places they shoot them in a "Z" 

and on the walk up... if they shoot a 3 or4 at a longer distance that they should not have shot .........well I think they have harmed themselves enough

Both cases on the "local" level I will remind them of the proper way and give a little leway ... after all no REAL harm was done . However I'm not going to let it go on all day as well

I have seen others however run up call for a -0- giving the rules are rules routine. I don't disagree but when you get 20 people together 2 times a year and each station has diffrent rules people are bound to foget a little here and there

I simply prefer to keep that 20 reasonably happy on the local level... go foward not back. It's the same on the 3-d course. Seen a guy once 4" off the stake but BEHIND it and put on the shot of his life on a turkey at 38 yards.. The SAME guys run up and demand a -0- since he broke the rules by not touching the stake. When it's serious I agree .When it's 20 guys in a dying game I say good shot :wink: 


part of the "problem" with field is that it is labor intensive . Each station has diffrent rules and you need a lot of marks. Then you actually do have to practice a little:wink: Let's face it most are hunters and most want to simply pick up their bows and poke some foam.... 

If you do manage to lure one over to the dark side for a round no reason to tackle him grab his score card and pencil in a -0- for the kind of rule infractions that ultimatley did not take a "win" out of anybody elses pocket 

Just my opinion on the subject


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

But field is a total mental game not only in the shot but making sure that the entire round is in order..... 

If its a newbie its your job to tell em before they shoot........


Should a cop let off a 16 year old for speeding because he just got his liscense 3 days before????? :zip:


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

centerx said:


> I don't disagree to a point


Let me start by saying I don't want to argue with you , but I have to disagree!!!



centerx said:


> But when you have a newbie or if you are in a place were you have a shoot or 2 a year and you are having a hard time getting more then 20 people to show up I think a little leway is order
> 
> I will "forgive" an infaction on a field course once, especially on the targets that require an order of shooting. I have seen diffrent people from diffrent clubs start top down and others start bottom up.. other newbies just plain did not know and I guess in some places they shoot them in a "Z"


For such a stickler for the rules..............please refer to your post in another thread only days ago.........................click herehttp://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=6773636&postcount=288



centerx said:


> and on the walk up... if they shoot a 3 or4 at a longer distance that they should not have shot .........well I think they have harmed themselves enough


 My question to this would be why are the other shooters in that group allowing this to happen. It blowns my mind to see one or a group of archers allow another to do these things. For instance in L'Ville this year after the bottom line shoot a judge went down range and pulled 5 arrows out of a top target. YOu can't and I don't honestly believe that no one standing around this archer saw her shoot any of the first 4 in the wrong target and let her know what happened. Unfortunately I was about 45 targets away!



centerx said:


> Both cases on the "local" level I will remind them of the proper way and give a little leway ... after all no REAL harm was done . However I'm not going to let it go on all day as well


Why let it happen once??? This is where having conversations comes in handy. Those with experience should be walking the newbies through ONE shot at a time!!!



centerx said:


> I have seen others however run up call for a -0- giving the rules are rules routine. I don't disagree but when you get 20 people together 2 times a year and each station has diffrent rules people are bound to foget a little here and there


Well acording the NFAA rules you can shoot the bunny top to bottom or vice versa (archers choise). the "Z" pattern is an IFAA rule! Also IFAA requires you cut completely through the line not just touch it or for you 3Ders...............stretch it!!!:wink:



centerx said:


> I simply prefer to keep that 20 reasonably happy on the local level... go foward not back. It's the same on the 3-d course. Seen a guy once 4" off the stake but BEHIND it and put on the shot of his life on a turkey at 38 yards.. The SAME guys run up and demand a -0- since he broke the rules by not touching the stake. When it's serious I agree .When it's 20 guys in a dying game I say good shot :wink:


A good shot is a good shot but if it's shot before or after the buzzer in vegas does it count????



centerx said:


> part of the "problem" with field is that it is labor intensive . Each station has diffrent rules and you need a lot of marks. Then you actually do have to practice a little:wink: Let's face it most are hunters and most want to simply pick up their bows and poke some foam....


This is the funniest thing you've said yet!!! For any disipline other than indoors more that one setting is required. and with all of the money archers spend on equipment Archers Advantage or other archery software is a must have!!! 



centerx said:


> If you do manage to lure one over to the dark side for a round no reason to tackle him grab his score card and pencil in a -0- for the kind of rule infractions that ultimatley did not take a "win" out of anybody elses pocket
> 
> Just my opinion on the subject


Agree but if you plan on taking this gentleman or lady to another tourney don't you think you are doing them a dis-service by not educating them as you go vs. over looking the rules. 

Newbies are great, they are like kids they want to know and do everything. They love watching that arrow fly 80 yards even if they don't have a pin for it.............they want to know everything (including the rules) and they want to follow the rules. But if we teach them from teh get go to not respect our game then they most certainly won't!!!


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well sure if I take a newbie out on the range I do show them the ropes 

However I can't contol eveybody that shows up. Heck sometimes I even show up to a new range.. I don't know who is were along there archery career. However I sure do remember breaking a few times between rounds and BS'en with a few people ... asking them how they shot so far only to be told or over hear others stating ? Not to well I got a -0- and I did not know ........... Fill in the blank:embara:

Heck I was in a group of three once and I did not know the other 2 . First target they should have been 20 points behind.. When I asked them what they were doing they admited to know knowing as they showed up thinking it was a 3-d ( no lying husband and wife) and they decided to stay and check this "new thing" out since they were there .... Now I supposed I could have given them all -0-'s been a jerk and gave them a stern leasson on "THE RULES" or I could have done what I done ....... Let them keep the points and showed them the ropes 

as far as the "order" I was primarily refering to the "tradition" when 4 targets are posted that the first up shoot the bottom target and the 2nd group shoot the top.... Now I have seen people just pick one not knowing. I have also even heard of clubs that alternate as in if you shot bottom the last time you shoot tops the next.... 

Then you take these new people ( or people that can't keep the rule book in the head straight) to a bunny and they do what they are told... Shoot bottom as 4 targets are posted and they shoot them left to right 

Not walking up or acidently shooting from one of the other markers used in the hunter or animal round... If the club does not have good signange or clear markers it can get a little confusing 

True in any shoot besides indoor you need more then 1 mark. Around here that is Field ... American rounds and 3-D 

Now on the American rounds you need 3 and while on the 3-d the number of marks could in theory be as high as 50. However 2/3rds are shooting with pins so it's a moot point .. They have 5

Which I guess get's back to the Elitist comments that I was origianlly addressing. I don't find to many snobs or individuals that will make fun of a person around these parts. However the barrier to Field remains in my opinion 

the appearance of complicated rules as compared to all other forms. 

seemingly the need for special equipment. Hate to say it most don't have Archers Advantage in the real world and telling somebody that it is a MUST is not really true for most archers and what they choose to do

Not to many bowhunters going to try and make shots past 50 yards when they don't have a need for those settings for any other game they play

So when you get to the complicated rules and let's face it they are intimidating untill you have shoot a few rounds.. People jamming RULES down your throat while you are making mistakes , I mean come on if you attended 2 shoots and you had points taken away while you are learning your not really going to have a warm fuzzy in your bow case for a whole year until next season are you??? confiming in there mind that the rules were difficult and the need for specialized equipment like AA , and pin setings you would never use in the other games you choose to play ect..ect.. ect

Well it does come of as an "elitist" game in my opinion ... and I love it 

It is techincal.. It is challenging and all the "rules" make for varied shots. 

I don't think as a rule the rules should be ignored ... all I am saying is that with some people some times at a small local shoot I can find value in letting some people keep some points on the board depending on the infraction

Hook them and develop them .. don't belittle them is all I'm saying


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## Short Draw (Dec 6, 2003)

I'm not a newbie, but not nearly a veteran either. My experiences with field archers has been only pleasant. I've had fellows loan me nocks, releases, offered to re-fletch an arrow, and even buy me a beer after the round. Perhaps I am just lucky- but I have no complaints.

As far as rules go.... If it is a tournament... the rules are the rules and need to be followed. If it is just a league or practice, I think you can relax them a bit for new people.


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## doninva (Jan 2, 2005)

I may have been a little off on the elitest thing(there are those type of people in every sport) but spot shooting is defintely on the decline in Virginia. There are clubs struggling to stay open. Clubs are shooting 14 targets twice due to not having enough people to keep 28 up. I was told at one shoot, they didn't have enough people to put up targets for 28. I think it was more than that. I have been to one shoot this year that had a good turn out. That was Walton Park in Lynchburg with 35 shooters. Out of 35, our club had about 1/3 of those. I am not trying to upset or talk down to anyone, I would NEVER do that. If you will be honest with yourself (Virginia shooters), look around at your next shoot. It will be mainly the same people you see at every shoot. This is good, but we need new shooters to keep field going. This was just an observation on my part. I was not trying to down anyone(as stated before, I would never do that). If I'm wrong about field being on the decline, give me some examples. I can remember when you had to have 2 ranges to hold the state shoot. Now you can hold it on one range and barring someone shooting slow, never have to wait on anyone. Thanks, Don


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

You haven't seen elitists until You shoot around NAA. Just face facts, life is too fast paced anymore for a lot of people to do this. Cost, Loss of ranges, People who are willing to take care of ranges ( we all know that only a hand ful of people actually do the work), and on top of it all, this sport just isn't for everybody as much as we love it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

What I find "elitist" is the people coming into the sport with the idea in their heads that they want to be "EXPERT SHOTS" NOW...or even yesterday...and yet, they just started!

I've had a few "students" recently that asked for help, which I always give....

Here's some things I see as "elitist":

1. That's not what I'm used to....I CAN'T do it that way, cuz my scores will go down.

2. This one slays me....mostly cuz I've heard it more than once recently: "I don't WANT to WORK that hard. If I should do it that way, then I'll just go back to the other way...there has GOT to be an easier way." THOSE students are no longer students....of mine, anyways, haha.

3. We need the "techno-toys" so that we can "catch up". We don't have TIME to learn all this stuff....man, o, man....

NEED, or MUST HAVE...as in Archer's Advantage, or OT2? MUST have....not hardly. YES, I use OT2....but I don't HAVE to...I KNOW how to "shoot in" my site marks, and frankly...ALL of my highest lifetime scores were shot with marks that were SHOT IN...not done on a computer.

But...back to elitist.... YES there are those out there that have a rule book in one back pocket; there are those out there that will have a fit if you say boo to them...but like JBird says....you CAN "loosen them up" by being, shall we say, "tolerant but POLITE"....If you show YOU are having fun, this aura of FUN....it RUBS OFF on them...and they too will loosen up and have fun.

Yes RULES are RULES....but if I'm shooting with an inexperienced shooter or a newbie....especially for practice....I TEACH THEM and EXPLAIN TO THEM the rule(s) target by target and shot by shot if necessary....THAT IS THE JOB of an experienced shooter, IMHO.

Don't try to talk to me while I'm at full draw...but any other time...let's have at it and enjoy the day and commaraderie! THAT is what it is all about...the world won't end if you MISS a shot!

I find more "elitism" in the newbies and inexperienced shooters than I do in those that have been around awhile....

field14


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## Melthuselah (May 12, 2006)

I am from Michigan but two years ago I came to Virginia (Walton Park) to the state shoot. My son lives in NC and I met him up there. He had never shot a field round in his life. The other young pin shooters there took him under there wing and taught him, While I was assigned to shoot with the "Geezer Group". I think I was the winner that weekend (The oldest shooter present). That is now my goal to be the oldest present. We both had a delightfull time and did not find anyone to be unfriendly. The turnout was less then what we normally have in Michigan at a state shoot but everyone was friendly and helpful. But we do not have the turnout we used to get. I have never found anyone at any shoot to be unfriendly, all of us may preferr to visit with people we know and like but I have never seen anyone exclude a stranger. I look forward to perhaps doing it again. It is nice to visit other places and is a bonus to get to visit with my son and his family.
Mel


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## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

*archery is fun!*

maybe the solution, take away the casual registration. shot gun starts, archery class grouping, shooting with your competition heads up! thats archery! as for the newbies, they get grouped, see first hand what competion is and they may see just how accurate archery equipment can be. newbies learn the rules of the game, they see first hand the preferred equipment used by the better archers. when a newby asked a question they get the best answer at that time. when I help a new archer, when certain questions are asked I sometimes have to really go back and recall something from many years ago, that in turns sometimes helps me. as far as archery in va, let me first say... that I have been a vba member since 1977! what we need to do is get the two va organizations together and unite! then as a group we can work together and lobby the national organizations and schedule shoots that don't overlap each other. If that was to happen than brad baker could have a chance at a va. triple crown! thats my thoughts.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

frank_jones said:


> maybe the solution, take away the casual registration. shot gun starts, archery class grouping, shooting with your competition heads up! thats archery! as for the newbies, they get grouped, see first hand what competion is and they may see just how accurate archery equipment can be. newbies learn the rules of the game, they see first hand the preferred equipment used by the better archers. when a newby asked a question they get the best answer at that time. when I help a new archer, when certain questions are asked I sometimes have to really go back and recall something from many years ago, that in turns sometimes helps me. as far as archery in va, let me first say... that I have been a vba member since 1977! what we need to do is get the two va organizations together and unite! then as a group we can work together and lobby the national organizations and schedule shoots that don't overlap each other. If that was to happen than brad baker could have a chance at a va. triple crown! thats my thoughts.



Frank I appreicate the thought but part of shooting the national circuits is skipping out on the local shoots..... Cause to me the state shoot at sherwood is really no different than a pin shoot because the guys I's shootin against are the same guys I almost always shoot with it's just the title on that particular weekend..... I would skip winning (assusiming i were to win it...trust me it aint no gimmie by any means!!!!) a state shoot to go and just palce top 5-10 at a national shoot any day.

But as far as the topic of the thread I shot witha first timer today and he actually wanted all the info that we could throw at him.... Of course we didnt cause that is way to much info to try and take in at one time but we gave him alot to work on and wwhen we see him at another shoot....which we will his words were "Im hooked on this Field stuff now" we will gladly continue to help this guy out as long as he want s our help and that point was made to him all day long and he left the shoot a happy archer!!!!:darkbeer:


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

doninva said:


> I may have been a little off on the elitest thing(there are those type of people in every sport) but spot shooting is defintely on the decline in Virginia. There are clubs struggling to stay open. Clubs are shooting 14 targets twice due to not having enough people to keep 28 up. I was told at one shoot, they didn't have enough people to put up targets for 28. I think it was more than that.


Absolutely, there are buttheads in any sport. Some shooters are content at just participating, some want to win for the sake of winning. You can have fun and still be competitive, but you also want to be grouped with individuals with similar goals and demeanor. 

The elitist mentality has more to do with who's driving the archery bus and not so much who's shooting, but that's a whole other topic.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

*My Thoughts....*

You're gonna have these so called 'clicks' in any sport. You think 3-D archery, golf or other sports don't have them? :zip: Sure they do! What do they say...birds of a feather flock together? 

This has nothing to do with the downfall of Field archery. Being proficient in Field takes time, dedication and plenty of practice. IMHO most people don't have that much spare time available for such things these days. I'm a perfect example. Since I started shooting Field in 1988 I've changed jobs, taken on more responsibilites, I travel a great deal, and I own a larger house. Archery practice has taken a back seat.  My scores have taken a nose-dive as a result.  It's very discouraging, but those are the choices I've made. So, I've decided to keep going anyway...shoot for enjoyment and do the best I can. Enjoy the outdoors and being with friends. If more would just get out...participate...have fun...don't worry about winning or how their score compares with others...we just might see things turn around.


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## DarrinM (May 21, 2002)

X hunter said:


> Frank I appreicate the thought but part of shooting the national circuits is skipping out on the local shoots..... Cause to me the state shoot at sherwood is really no different than a pin shoot because the guys I's shootin against are the same guys I almost always shoot with it's just the title on that particular weekend..... I would skip winning (assusiming i were to win it...trust me it aint no gimmie by any means!!!!) a state shoot to go and just palce top 5-10 at a national shoot any day.


I have a bit of a different view on why field is struggling..... 

Brads post ties in directly to my hypothesis. I have shot archery competitively for going on 22 years. During that time I have seen the ebb and flow of participation......

When I began the local shoots meant something and the top shooters scheduled and shot at these local "majors". In the late 80's several of us "top" shooters went to the Nationals. We were hooked!!!!! We returned and said the shoot to win is the Nationals and the bowl.... Who cares about the little local shoots.... After all they were just warmup for our "real" goal. 

As the "top" shooters deemphasized the local shoots it was easy for the non "top" shooters to skip or not emphasize attending these local shoots. I mean really if the big dogs are not there and don't care why should they????? As the masses stopped attending then the shoots farther marginalized and apthy set in. New shooters were trained that local didn't matter andthe "top" guys only shoot to practice for a "BIG" shoot that most only dream of attending. Throw in the NASCAR look of shooters and you have a local shooting base that feels like their efforts are for naught and why should they bother.

While this may be just a local thing I think we can all see some of ourselves in this scenario..... I am to blame for the downfall of many in my local club. I marginalized their hopes. goals and dreams by devaluing their "big" shoot. In the end we all have to make choices and I can assure you if I had to do it over I would try to make every local "major" if for nothing else just to keep the pulse of the local game. 

If we want to enjoy a rebirth of archery it is my firm belief that it starts at the local range!!!!!!!!! If the Hinkelmonsters, Brads, DCM's, Jesse's and Hasbeens start shooting locally the masses will follow. Look to the Hillbilly Shoot and LAS Indoor for affirmation. The masses desire to test their abilities against the best and to see how the best do it. It is our responsibility as "top dogs" to let them see us shoot..... So Brad I say go the States and Shoot your heart out! Because you never want the second place or lower guy to know that it means lees to you than it does them. Our "little" shoot may the biggest thing the Noob strives to win.... If that is their goal I am all for making it mean as much to them as it did to me before I was a "top" shooter...... 

Just the ramblings of a formerly "near the top" shooter


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

It seems trendy now-a-days to call any group of friends that shoots together (or plays golf together or hunts together or whatever) a clique.......


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

RCL said:


> It seems trendy now-a-days to call any group of friends that shoots together (or plays golf together or hunts together or whatever) a clique.......



you noticed that also :wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

DarrinM said:


> I have a bit of a different view on why field is struggling.....
> 
> Brads post ties in directly to my hypothesis. I have shot archery competitively for going on 22 years. During that time I have seen the ebb and flow of participation......
> 
> ...


when the Gnome speaks...people listen:wink:

great post Darrin...that makes a ton of sense and after thinking about it...I have seen that happen.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

DarrinM said:


> I have a bit of a different view on why field is struggling.....
> 
> Brads post ties in directly to my hypothesis. I have shot archery competitively for going on 22 years. During that time I have seen the ebb and flow of participation......
> 
> ...



Point well taken Darren and I would love to shoot our sate shoot but our sate org. purposefully scheudules tourneys over top of national shoots "trying to prove a point" I shoot a local shoot almost every weekend and try to shoot or help a nwebie out as mich as I can but when the local scene works against the national scene you will have mixups and unfortunalty we as archers ar forced to pick one or the other and this sucks because ogs ore in a pi$$ing contest to see whos who..... the orgs are to busy fighting for their own reasons to see the common archer who wants to shoot locally and nationally is suffering cause as much as I would love to support both I cant be in two places at once....... When will they realize their pi$$ing into the wind??!!

And your right if the "top" shooters(which i dont see myself as one yet) go to local shoots others will come...cause I enjoy helping out a struggling or beginning archer as much as I enjoy shooting.... And if the young archers see us helping them as well as others on top of enjoying just being at the range to shoot they to will become hooked and thus the contuination of the sport. 

Just as side info this is the only state outdoor shoot that interfers with a national shoot.... So I will be at the rest of the local and state shoots that I can possibly get to.... If nothing else to support the local clubs and mabey even squeak out a win here and there.


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## DarrinM (May 21, 2002)

X hunter said:


> Point well taken Darren and I would love to shoot our sate shoot but our sate org. purposefully scheudules tourneys over top of national shoots "trying to prove a point" I shoot a local shoot almost every weekend and try to shoot or help a nwebie out as mich as I can but when the local scene works against the national scene you will have mixups and unfortunalty we as archers ar forced to pick one or the other and this sucks because ogs ore in a pi$$ing contest to see whos who..... the orgs are to busy fighting for their own reasons to see the common archer who wants to shoot locally and nationally is suffering cause as much as I would love to support both I cant be in two places at once....... When will they realize their pi$$ing into the wind??!!
> 
> And your right if the "top" shooters(which i dont see myself as one yet) go to local shoots others will come...cause I enjoy helping out a struggling or beginning archer as much as I enjoy shooting.... And if the young archers see us helping them as well as others on top of enjoying just being at the range to shoot they to will become hooked and thus the contuination of the sport.
> 
> Just as side info this is the only state outdoor shoot that interfers with a national shoot.... So I will be at the rest of the local and state shoots that I can possibly get to.... If nothing else to support the local clubs and mabey even squeak out a win here and there.


I know you and Hinky are local guys extroidinaire  The post just happened to dovetail nicely into my hypothesis...... 

The orgs need to try to get along better but with so many orgs having so few weekends to compete for our time it does make it hard.... Throw in a dash of obstinance and you have a bigger problem.:zip:

And trust me my friend you ARE one of those "TOP" dogs I type about!:wink:


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

DarrinM said:


> I have a bit of a different view on why field is struggling.....
> 
> Brads post ties in directly to my hypothesis. I have shot archery competitively for going on 22 years. During that time I have seen the ebb and flow of participation......
> 
> ...


A good well thought out post. 

It was definitely uttered by something more than your normal everyday primate. 


In our area, we don't see this kind of thing really. We are lucky that alot of good shooters do show up. I know it is the opposite sometimes for me. I go to a 3D shoot and I hear people talking about who does this guy think he is taking one minute at the stake with binos and using all that fancy target junk on his bow.  Apparently I am not supposed to use my allotted time and just fling an arrow in the animal somewhere and not worry about score.  They don't like it when I glass the target with binos. Apparently they think I am competing against them.  Some guys are slow, but I am pretty quick.

Field archery is practically extinct in Idaho though. I have a range 4 hours to the north of me and it still has at least 4-6 ft of snow I bet on it. We have one field archery tournament a year here and it is about 15-25 people. It is our state shoot. We don't have the ranges here anymore and no one knows what the heck field archery is. I do my best to invite as many as I can. I have a linear course set up at my house and I have offered to teach anyone I run into how to shoot it. I tell them they would love it!


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

DarrinM said:


> I have a bit of a different view on why field is struggling.....
> 
> Brads post ties in directly to my hypothesis. I have shot archery competitively for going on 22 years. During that time I have seen the ebb and flow of participation......
> 
> ...


A very well thought out post Darrin. I have been saying something similiar for awhile. I had this same conversation with a WNY formerly near the top pro awhile back in his shop...People want to see/have a shot at the big guns...failing that apathy will set in, and then only the die hards are left...


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## supernova (Oct 3, 2005)

*It's different in WI*

I had the opportunity to help out with a youth day sponsored by the ruff grouse society this past weekend. We had some elite shooters brave freezing cold and gusting winds to help introduce about bunch of kids to the sport. 

I've had the pleasure of knowing some of them for a few years, others I just met. Of the ones I know, they do not have an elitist attitude. They are willing to help anyone. Great bunch of guys:thumbs_up

Some of these guys shock me as to how much they give back to the sport. It seems every time I volunteer for something, they are also there. Between volunteering and attending the different tournaments, I don't think these guys ever have a free week.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

DarrinM said:


> I know you and Hinky are local guys extroidinaire  The post just happened to dovetail nicely into my hypothesis......
> 
> The orgs need to try to get along better but with so many orgs having so few weekends to compete for our time it does make it hard.... Throw in a dash of obstinance and you have a bigger problem.:zip:
> 
> And trust me my friend you ARE one of those "TOP" dogs I type about!:wink:


Yes it did!!!!:wink:

Its just so bad to see the orgs bicker back and forth over petty crap.... And the worst part of it is while thet do this they hurt the ones trying to promote and grow ths sport... 

And the local clubs dont want any part of trying to work around/with the national orgs. I almost got booted from a large club for trying to make them see this point... Closed minded ole timers just set in their ways who think a club meeting is an hour long Bi#$h and moan secission over usless crap (new roof on a 10 year old building with 20 year shingles on it, what color to paint walls,etc...)

But if you mention a national org (NFAA,NAA) you may as well killed a man in front of these guys and asked them to keep quiet about it!!!!! And it is also in the stae org as well.... Come on state indoor same weekend as Vegas what the hell???? :zip:

In my opnion if the national and local orgs dont get on the same page that will be as someONE called it the "DOOM" of this sport especially Field!!!!!:zip::wink: 

So my qusetion to the national alnd local orgs would be "Why cant we all just get along??" 

Or better yet just get over yourselves and do what everybody else knows needs to be done!!!!!

But Im just one out of many....:wink:


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

X hunter said:


> But if you mention a national org (NFAA,NAA) you may as well killed a man in front of these guys and asked them to keep quiet about it!!!!! And it is also in the stae org as well.... Come on state indoor same weekend as Vegas what the hell???? :zip:


This goes both ways. There are plenty of old coots to go around. The national orgs need to focus on the shoots they are directly responsible for and the states need to show consideration for the national shoot schedule. That's all I'm going to say on this subject, else my blood pressure will go through the roof and I'll have to go back to the gym and lift some more weights to get calmed down.


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## Hinkelmonster (Oct 25, 2004)

ultratec00 said:


> This goes both ways. There are plenty of old coots to go around. The national orgs need to focus on the shoots they are directly responsible for and the states need to show consideration for the national shoot schedule. That's all I'm going to say on this subject, else my blood pressure will go through the roof and I'll have to go back to the gym and lift some more weights to get calmed down.


The NFAA/WAF/IBO/ASA and other big orgs have enough trouble scheduling shoots around each other and also around the schedules of the venues hosting the events ie: Riviera/Louisville Convo Center ect......

The states need to schedule around the orgs and the clubs need to schedule around the states!!!!

Crap rolls down hill!!!


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Hinkelmonster said:


> The NFAA/WAF/IBO/ASA and other big orgs have enough trouble scheduling shoots around each other and also around the schedules of the venues hosting the events ie: Riviera/Louisville Convo Center ect......
> 
> The states need to schedule around the orgs and the clubs need to schedule around the states!!!!
> 
> Crap rolls down hill!!!


Absolutely, there needs to be some consideration at all levels. However, I think you'll find that most clubs aren't making money off the very FEW shooters that chose to compete at the national level. They are making money off those that either want to support that specific club, want to shoot within the state, or the local participant that doesn't belong to any club yet likes to come out and shoot on occasion.. 

Count every member of every club. Now, how many of those shoot at the club level, travel to other clubs to shoot, shoot at the state level, and finally shoot at the national level (mids, nationals, etc). Nothing against those that chose to shoot at the national level, but they are the MINORITY. More power to them, but clubs would starve if they had to depend on those specific individuals to pay bills.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Not So Up Here*

Most of the folks that show up for local shoots are the same ones you see at the Sectionals and State shoots. There are fewer of us that attend the Nationals but it seems that up here if you are an active field shooter you go where the shoots are to shoot as many as possible. At many of the shoots we attend out of state the group from Vermont is over 50% of the entrys.
Jbird


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

DarrinM said:


> If we want to enjoy a rebirth of archery it is my firm belief that it starts at the local range!!!!!!!!!


Couldn't agree more! 

DarrinM, I think you lay too much blame on yourself and the other 'top' archers. I agree that it would be nice if they participated at more local shoots, but I'm not sure that would have helped in the past...or now. 

Frankly, I don't know what archers want. Here in Maryland we have classes so everyone competes against those of similar skill levels...we have plenty of locations to shoot...there is a shoot *EVERY* weekend...we've got it all! To be honest, I'm all out of ideas.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

ultratec00 said:


> This goes both ways. There are plenty of old coots to go around. *The national orgs need to focus on the shoots they are directly responsible for and the states need to show consideration for the national shoot schedule.* That's all I'm going to say on this subject, else my blood pressure will go through the roof and I'll have to go back to the gym and lift some more weights to get calmed down.


I totally agree with ya here but when you have a state org who is not associated with the NFAA then you have problems.......because the state org has a "we're gonna show them attitude!!!"..... This is the crap we virginia shooters have to deal with from the VBA "officals" who think the NFAA should die because it's not doing exactly what they want it to do........ At least in virginia as said in another thread the org has enough loopholes to keep those in office in office we must wait for the powers that be to die out and hand it over to a new genaration...... Cause the shoots will never work with each other as long as they are in a pi$$ing contest......


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Another problem is MEMBER CLUBS of a State Association holding 3-D events and in many cases FIELD SHOOTS right on top of STATE EVENT or SECTIONAL EVENT dates!

Sure, the states try to "penalize" these clubs scheduling shoots against the state sanctioned championships....but clubs ignore it....and schedule their local shoot right on top of the state or sectional events anyways.

I agree that there are only so many weekends...but if one pays close enough attention....it is uncanny at how many times you see "other associations" scheduling their big events within 50 miles of a major NFAA event on the same weekend! Very uncanny indeed.

The associations don't seem to realize that there are only so many competitive shooters out there to draw from....and the associations are cutting their noses off to spite their faces by playing the "I was there first" game....or "well MY association is better than yours" game that has gotten old. OR....The Old thing that came up years ago: of "well this association will see to it that that organization is put out of the picture if at all possible."

Not much standardization of rules, equipment, and now shooting dates and schedules AND little to no communication among the ORGANIZATIONS...and we all wonder why archery isn't GROWING but rather stagnating in some respects and DECLINING in most all of the aspects!

I'm beginning to feel that a person should be able to "bounce" from one associations tournaments to another...and not have to change a thing in order to be able to compete...but of course, that would mean STANDARDIZATION...and we might as well pee into a fan.

I'm getting more of a shoot watcha bring attitude and separation of men, women, compound and recurve...and then the kids and that is it. SCORE determined placement regardless of any other differences. That of course will never happen because everyone wants their piece of the pie and to be awarded for mediocrity as well as prowess.

field14


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

.


field14 said:


> Another problem is MEMBER CLUBS of a State Association holding 3-D events and in many cases FIELD SHOOTS right on top of STATE EVENT or SECTIONAL EVENT dates!
> 
> Yes!!!! A common problem here as well!!!!!
> 
> ...


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

X hunter said:


> I totally agree with ya here but when you have a state org who is not associated with the NFAA then you have problems.......because the state org has a "we're gonna show them attitude!!!"..... This is the crap we virginia shooters have to deal with from the VBA "officals" who think the NFAA should die because it's not doing exactly what they want it to do........ At least in virginia as said in another thread the org has enough loopholes to keep those in office in office we must wait for the powers that be to die out and hand it over to a new genaration...... Cause the shoots will never work with each other as long as they are in a pi$$ing contest......


To be honest, I am a firm believer that the state org needs to be independent and not affiliated with any of the national orgs. Doesn't mean the state shoot schedule can't reflect due consideration for ALL the national org shoots, but it also means no one national agenda should take precedence over another. This is about ALL of archery and helping to keep the interest going at the club level so we can have a place to shoot. I keep hearing the argument "it's our game, our rules".. yadda yadda yadda.. Then someone at NFAA needs to slap a proprietary tag on the indoor and field faces and the only place one can buy the fricken targets is from NFAA and the only way to buy a target is if the buyer is an NFAA affiliated club or member. Sounds pretty ridiculous, but so is burdening an already weak archery base by forcing participants to pay homage because "that's the way it's always been". That's the elitist mentality that drives wedges between disciplines and does nothing but promote resentment. 

I understand having split organizations must be awkward, especially with the obvious resentment between the two. Interesting though that the VBA state indoor had about twice as many participants than the VFAA state indoor. Given the fact that the VBA indoor was held the same weekend as Vegas, one can only assume there would be more participants at the VBA shoot had it not fallen on that weekend. Seems that if VBA was the demon incarnate most people on AT have made it out to be, everyone would have boycotted the shoot.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

ultratec00 said:


> To be honest, I am a firm believer that the state org needs to be independent and not affiliated with any of the national orgs. Doesn't mean the state shoot schedule can't reflect due consideration for ALL the national org shoots, but it also means no one national agenda should take precedence over another. This is about ALL of archery and helping to keep the interest going at the club level so we can have a place to shoot. I keep hearing the argument "it's our game, our rules".. yadda yadda yadda.. Then someone at NFAA needs to slap a proprietary tag on the indoor and field faces and the only place one can buy the fricken targets is from NFAA and the only way to buy a target is if the buyer is an NFAA affiliated club or member. Sounds pretty ridiculous, but so is burdening an already weak archery base by forcing participants to pay homage because "that's the way it's always been". That's the elitist mentality that drives wedges between disciplines and does nothing but promote resentment.
> 
> I understand having split organizations must be awkward, especially with the obvious resentment between the two. Interesting though that the VBA state indoor had about twice as many participants than the VFAA state indoor. Given the fact that the VBA indoor was held the same weekend as Vegas, one can only assume there would be more participants at the VBA shoot had it not fallen on that weekend. Seems that if VBA was the demon incarnate most people on AT have made it out to be, everyone would have boycotted the shoot.



Well what I was getting at is I like to shoot the local shoots as well as the large state and national shoots..... So why do I have to choose between the two and then not have any shoots for 2 weeks after that????

The reason the VBA shoot had a higher turnout is more was done to advertise it than the VFAA shoot.... And alot of the shooters are local guys only who listen to the VBA officers and based on what they say they to dislike the NFAA based souly on other peoples opnions.. But the main difference is the amount of advertising done for the VBA shoot.... The VFAA is definatly the minority org in VA but in my opnion its the better run org for archers who shoot more on a national and sectional level....


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

All you guys in VA are *****ing, yet you seem to have a lot of field in your state. I just put on the Arizona State Outdoor Field Championship for 2008 this past weekend. There are supposedly 5 million people in Arizona and 3.5 million in the Phoenix metro area (where the shoot took place). And what was the attendence? 24, and no that wasn't a typo. 24 guys showed up for the State Championship. No women, no kids, no traditional shooters and no Olympic recurves. There were two barebow recurves, me and my shooting partner.

The only field archery events happening in this state are the ones I am putting on through either the State NFAA affiliate or one local club that lets me use their name. I've held three shoots since last Fall. Attendance has been between 15 and 20. No elitism here...there's no one to feel superior to.

If someone comes up with a way to generate interest in field please let me know. I think it is the absolute best reason to shoot arrows but I am obviously in the minority.

Dave


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Dave T said:


> All you guys in VA are *****ing, yet you seem to have a lot of field in your state. I just put on the Arizona State Outdoor Field Championship for 2008 this past weekend. There are supposedly 5 million people in Arizona and 3.5 million in the Phoenix metro area (where the shoot took place). And what was the attendence? 24, and no that wasn't a typo. 24 guys showed up for the State Championship. No women, no kids, no traditional shooters and no Olympic recurves. There were two barebow recurves, me and my shooting partner.
> 
> The only field archery events happening in this state are the ones I am putting on through either the State NFAA affiliate or one local club that lets me use their name. I've held three shoots since last Fall. Attendance has been between 15 and 20. No elitism here...there's no one to feel superior to.
> 
> ...


I thought Arizona was FITA country????:wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Dave T said:


> All you guys in VA are *****ing, yet you seem to have a lot of field in your state. I just put on the Arizona State Outdoor Field Championship for 2008 this past weekend. There are supposedly 5 million people in Arizona and 3.5 million in the Phoenix metro area (where the shoot took place). And what was the attendence? 24, and no that wasn't a typo. 24 guys showed up for the State Championship. No women, no kids, no traditional shooters and no Olympic recurves. There were two barebow recurves, me and my shooting partner.
> 
> The only field archery events happening in this state are the ones I am putting on through either the State NFAA affiliate or one local club that lets me use their name. I've held three shoots since last Fall. Attendance has been between 15 and 20. No elitism here...there's no one to feel superior to.
> 
> ...



That is the field gods punishing you for having the nice weather to shoot all year outside

But what I was wondering is why you have the State Championship so early in the year:noidea:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> That is the field gods punishing you for having the nice weather to shoot all year outside
> 
> But what I was wondering is why you have the State Championship so early in the year:noidea:


Because you don't go outside in Phoenix during June, July, or August at least not for a full field round


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Just for a point of reference. The Southwest Sectional will be held the weekend of May 17, and our State Field will be May 30-31 and then field is over.:sad:

You guys back east don't realize how good you've got it.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

swerve is right. It was in the mid 90s this past weekend and the humidity was in the single digits. Sunday it was very windy and you could hold your arm out and watch the skin on your arm drying out (LOL). I'm putting on a club field shoot on June 29th. We are starting at 6:30 AM in the hope of getting done before it hits 100, about 10:30 or 11:00 in the morning.

As Robert Heinlein said, T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

Dave


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

swerve said:


> Because you don't go outside in Phoenix during June, July, or August at least not for a full field round


Wimps....we do...heck I will be on the water fishing in 95-100 degree weather with 90% humidity for 6-8 hours  I go play golf...the best days are when the news tells you to stay inside The only pain I find shooting is keeping the sweat out of my eyes and my hands dry:wink:


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> Wimps....we do...heck I will be on the water fishing in 95-100 degree weather with 90% humidity for 6-8 hours  I go play golf...the best days are when the news tells you to stay inside The only pain I find shooting is keeping the sweat out of my eyes and my hands dry:wink:


Hey Curly Fry, they are not talking about 95-100. They are talking about 110-120.  You wouldn't be able to cope with that kind of heat and very, very dry air for long.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Roflmao*

"Curly Fry" 

Note to Swami.
The higher the humidity the more unbearable the heat, So 90-100 with 90% humidity like you find in Houston is a lot worse than 110 with 10% humidity.

Jbird


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Jbird said:


> "Curly Fry"
> 
> Note to Swami.
> The higher the humidity the more unbearable the heat, So 90-100 with 90% humidity like you find in Houston is a lot worse than 110 with 10% humidity.
> ...


Yeah I know that. But just because you can play around all day in the humidity there, don't make that mistake out here unless you are taking in obscene amounts of water every hour and I mean obscene. Things die fast out in that kind of heat and dryness. Take Death Valley for example. 

Just because the heat index is less in Az doesn't mean it is less deadly.

I hate the weather in Houston.

If one of you soggy air people went to Az, you would dry out and hate it. You wouldn't be used to it. You would look like one big dry scab.  You would lose fluids real fast and you dry out so fast your sweat doesn't help cool you down like it is supposed to. You evaporate from the inside out.  Your lungs really feel it if you are doing something makes you breath hard. It can feel like you are breathing in fire.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Agreed*

Houston may be the most unbearable place to live in the US in the summer. Only place I've been that compares is Okinawa in the rainy season.
It only sucks half as bad in the winter.
Jbird


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> "Curly Fry"
> 
> Note to Swami.
> The higher the humidity the more unbearable the heat, So 90-100 with 90% humidity like you find in Houston is a lot worse than 110 with 10% humidity.
> ...


Exactly....it isn't like there is much of a difference they both suck big time...and nobody should be out in it....but I do it anyway


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

The Swami said:


> Yeah I know that. But just because you can play around all day in the humidity there, don't make that mistake out here unless you are taking in obscene amounts of water every hour and I mean obscene. Things die fast out in that kind of heat and dryness. Take Death Valley for example.
> 
> Just because the heat index is less in Az doesn't mean it is less deadly.
> 
> ...


You forget where I live....there are more people that come here for a year or two and then go back to where ever then anywhere in the country.

My roommate was from Phoenix....he couldn't stand the heat here....it kicked the dog poo out of him...his words were that the heat is worse hear

I have a buddy from Denver that can't take the winters here either....they get more snow but Jan, Feb are bone chilling cold here also....and the wind makes it worse...

Curly Fry...


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Well unless someone gets a handle on energy prices, I do believe that in state and local shoots are going to have a resurge in popularity. Most people, me included, can't afford to travel all over hell's half acre to shoots. The fuel prices kill you. AND I CAN'T FIT FOUR PEOPLE'S EQUIPMENT INTO A PLASTIC CAN WITH WHEELS.

So maybe OPEC will save our local clubs.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

*hmmmmmmmm*

Could the "GLOBAL WARMING"( very sarcastic) be the cause of the lacking particpation???????:tongue:


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## Ode1891 (Aug 30, 2006)

*back to the topic*

I'm new to any formal target shooting. I did some 3D for a few years and this year I'm trying indoor and Field. I love shooting my bow. But I think archery isn't a very popular sport in general, as it requires a lot of discipline and time. As I'm now learning about field archery, it's not instant gratification either. Those are things I like about archery, but they are also the aspects of the sport that keep the population low.

As for not feeling comfortable or fitting in...when I strike up a conversation with archers at a new club, they talk to me. When I ask if I can join their group and learn their course, I've been welcomed if there is room . But if I stand off to the side and wait to be approached, I'll probably be left alone. With PC's and video games, we suck at social skills these days, don't we?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

X hunter said:


> Could the "GLOBAL WARMING"( very sarcastic) be the cause of the lacking particpation???????:tongue:


I think the cause is people don't shoot as good as they think they can or should...they get skeerreed to embarrass themselves then go back to shooting HC or 3D in general...it's a whole lot easier to shoot ONE good arrow per target then 4....then if you factor in the 20 vs 112 arrows...then the built in excuses that go along with 3D...I missed judged the target....etc. You have a decline in field.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> field is dying because people are shooting more 3D or they can't win so they quit.PERIOD.


I'd love to shoot field, but because of tendinous I'm limited to about 40-50 shots before i have to pack it in. Then its off to RICE (rest, ice, c?, and elevation. Man I sure miss shooting for a couple hours and 100 or so arrows every day.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

When you are talking about turnouts of 20-35 shooters are you talking about per class or total. I have gone through the results from the NFAA national and don't see what I would call a whole lot of shooters(in number not quality easy guys). When you only have 300 or 400 at the national level either a bunch of folks are staying home or you don't have the numbers you think you have. Not trying to turn this into a field vs 3D vs indoor vs outdoor pissin match but archery as a whole in down. Maybe it is the economy that is killing us all. The only thing that has not increased(proportionally) in the last ten years is wages. Plain fact folks don't have the disposable income they used to have to go play. That one fact is what I feel is the major reason all of archery is suffering or is going to suffer in attendance.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Bubba*

I fear you are right. People who live a mile from their job and close to shopping are not really affected all that much. But many people live in areas where distances to anything are long. My wife and I both are outside in our cars working everyday. Only my gas is paid and her's isn't. We are currently spending $600-$800 per month on gas. That is a BIG chunk of disposable income. We usually shoot 10-12 Field shoots every summer and the closest range is 125 miles away. That makes it expensive even at 24 mpg which is what our Odyssey gets on the road if we're lucky. It really helps when we travel with another couple but sometimes we go when they can't. People who live in rural areas or Texas, etc. where a short run to a shoot can be 200
miles will definitely be effected. I certainly don't think Field is an elitist sport but the way gas is going it may be sooner than we think.
Jbird


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

Bubba Dean said:


> ... Maybe it is the economy that is killing us all. The only thing that has not increased(proportionally) in the last ten years is wages. Plain fact folks don't have the disposable income they used to have to go play. That one fact is what I feel is the major reason all of archery is suffering or is going to suffer in attendance.


I'll agree with you on this BD. I started 2 years ago and I shoot barebow recurve. I didn't get an Oly style bow until last July since I was trying to save
up the cash but still take care of the family. Someone _gave_ me a nice set of limbs ( Winact Focus ), so I purchased a KAP T-Rex riser for $100
and a set of ICS Venture shafts. At least I'm fortunate to be able keep myself in gear by brown bagging my lunch.

Gas costs are also a killer. I live 1/2 hour by train from Midtown Manhattan.
I belong to a club with a field course 20 miles from my house but while it's great for practice, they're only having 1 shoot this year. There's a Long Island club a little over an hour from my home that has 10+ field shoots a year BUT
the tolls over the bridge are $8 both ways and the gas will cost another $15 - $16 bucks. Add the $15 fee and I'm pushing $40 to shoot in a tournament. My club charges $20 for non-members so they are reasonable. No stopping at the diner either or archery becomes the sport of Kings.

Another possibility is people either have less time than they used to or are unwilling to put in most of a day to 1 activity. The NY times posted a article a few weeks back about the decline in attendance at golf courses. Some clubs are resorting to 6 hole rounds hoping to get greater attendance...


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Jbird said:


> I certainly don't think Field is an elitist sport but the way gas is going it may be sooner than we think.
> Jbird


I wouldn't say the sport itself is elitist, but that phrase could definitely be applied to the the national org. Granted, some of the issue has to lie with the individual state chapters, but I don't ever recall IBO, NAA, or ASA trying to control all of archery at the state level. That type of arrogant mentality does nothing but promote resentment within the archery community. The state org should show NO preference to any national org or promote one agenda over another.

If I was an avid 3Der, I sure would resent the *ell out of NFAA, especially considering the revenue 3D generates at the club level. For quite a few clubs, 3D is their lifeblood. NFAA has no stake in 3D, and PLEASE don't ever say Redding is a 3D tournament... Challenging, obviously. Well attended, apparent. 3D, with known yardage and dots on the animals for aiming points, GIVE ME A BREAK! Yet this gets thrown up by some NFAA minion as a legit 3D tournament. I'm not even going to mention what kind of attendance the NFAA unmarked 3D national championship draws. :zip:


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

ultratec00 said:


> If I was an avid 3Der, I sure would resent the *ell out of NFAA...


By the same token, I'm an avid field archer and I resent 3D organizations scheduling shoots the same weekend as a state field championship, or 3D shooters taring up or removing yardage markers on field courses because they want to shoot un-marked distances. I've seen two excellent field courses in my state destroyed that way.

Dave


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Yep.....here we go again....3-D that didn't even START until the 1980's, and had its roots from the GENEROSITY of the FIELD SHOOTERS and the NFAA's blessing to start with...raising CAIN, just once more with the NFAA...that was founded...as an UNMARKED YARDAGE Organization in the late 1930's!

Just like 3-D, field shooting was UNMARKED to start...and eventually went to marked yardage.

ASA 3-D is about halfway there now...to MARKED YARDAGE... and it could get interesting as the "diamond" gains more influence and control over the next 3-5 years....Those bad-mouthing the Redding shoot, of course have NEVER been there...cuz they say "We won't attend no chicken lindy 3-D event with dots on the animals and marked distance...afterall, what is the challenge in that...they say...but can they hit those dots on those animals...at distances ranging to 101 yards? Probably not a snowball's chance in ........and I'm saying this to those that BAD-MOUTH the Redding shoot...not the goodly numbers of 3-Ders that ATTEND the Redding shoot...and do quite well at it.

Of course....3-Ders will "bad-mouth" Redding...the LARGEST outdoor 3-D event going in this country today; and the best attended to boot....No excuses for missing on those...other than the shooter just flat screwed up and has to admit it to themselves.

I, too, tire of the 3-D clubs and orgs seemingly INTENTIONALLY setting dates right straight against State, Regional, or Sectional, and sometimes even NATIONAL field events...and doing it in very close proximity to the location of the NFAA event....

Seems to me that the last week of July has been the "NFAA Outdoor Nationals' date for at least 40 years...probably more than that....so who has FIRST DIBS on that week?

Just yet another case of not being able to make competitive archery get the sponsorships and "draw"...because the 5 organizations are too busy back-stabbing each other...or so it seems.

field14


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

field14 said:


> Those bad-mouthing the Redding shoot, of course have NEVER been there...cuz they say "We won't attend no chicken lindy 3-D event with dots on the animals and marked distance...afterall, what is the challenge in that...they say...but can they hit those dots on those animals...at distances ranging to 101 yards? Probably not a snowball's chance in ........and I'm saying this to those that BAD-MOUTH the Redding shoot...not the goodly numbers of 3-Ders that ATTEND the Redding shoot...and do quite well at it.
> 
> Of course....3-Ders will "bad-mouth" Redding...the LARGEST outdoor 3-D event going in this country today; and the best attended to boot....No excuses for missing on those...other than the shooter just flat screwed up and has to admit it to themselves.


Absolutely, no one is saying redding is an easy shoot. It is a well known national event that has a good following. It is what it is, a DOT shoot not a 3D shoot. You're aiming at a dot, the funky foam background is nothing more than a novelty which could be easily replaced by whatever substance can stop an arrow. 

Thanks for the trip down memory lane, proved my point quite nicely.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I agrew with Field, but also, How many weekends are there in a summer?? Definitely not enough for me.


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## dhunt1 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Ive got the answer!*

Lets start a whole new venue.....3-d Field! One arrow for the 3-d shot then another shot at Field target. Double your fun i say!


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

ultratec00 said:


> Absolutely, no one is saying redding is an easy shoot. It is a well known national event that has a good following. It is what it is, a DOT shoot not a 3D shoot. You're aiming at a dot, the funky foam background is nothing more than a novelty which could be easily replaced by whatever substance can stop an arrow.
> 
> Thanks for the trip down memory lane, proved my point quite nicely.




why do rubber deer have scoring rings? dots and rings are both round last time i looked. that would technically make it a 'spot' to aim at.

i could sit here and nit-pick the cost differences between the two courses, but thats still fallin on deaf ears.

i keep hearin how rubber deer keep clubs floating......how many are your shoots pullin in? granted, the target game isnt doin near as well, but thats because the foamheads wont give it a consideration.

this is about as stupid as congress......not a damn thing gets done because people dont like the other's affiliation. didnt we go thru that issue back in the 60's?, still are in some places.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Wonder what would happen on 3-D events if the Highest scoring area was put in the PROPER ANATOMICALY POSITION on the animal? You can bet that the SCORES would drop like a rock, and the "distance judging gods"....might have more problems with things too.

ALL OF ARCHERY...until the object is living and breathing is TARGET ARCHERY...and even then when shooting at a living animal...there is a SPOT TO PICK TO AIM AT...or you are unsuccessful and inaccurate.

ALL live animals...have a discernable SPOT to aim at...an AIMING point on them....if a person is so inclined to pay attention enough to what they are trying to accomplish...which SHOULD BE...one shot, one effective, clean, and humane harvesting of the quarry....not just a HIT...but a VITAL HIT that is humane.

You all think that the "spot" size on the indoor NFAA face came about by just drawing a circle on paper? Think again...NFAA started out as UNMARKED years ago and eventually ended up as marked distance. That spot size at 20 yards isn't happen-stance...it is what they figured out was the MAXIMUM diameter that a person should be able to hit EVERY TIME....to insure that ONE SHOT, ONE clean and humane harvest at 20 yards! Why was 20 yards picked as the INDOOR distance? Simple...that is the AVERAGE DISTANCE OF A HUNTING SHOT!. Plain and simple.

Hitting a PIE PLATE at 20 yards really doesn't cut it for that clean, humane harvest.

On 3-D, shooting for the middle of the shoulder blade on an ELK target...doesn't cut it....that elk, with that hit....is going bye bye...as in to the next county...with a NON-VITAL hit....cuz you ain't gonna stand much chance of a double lung hitting him in that spot!

Put the highest scoring value in the PROPER anatomical postion...then let's call it "practice for HUNTING"...otherwise, it is a SPOT SHOOT...cuz the top 3-ders...PICK A SPOT...that they've MEMORIZED and KNOW to be the position of the "highest scoring ring"...so there really is NO SEPARATION between field and 3-D.

3-D is more MARKED yardage than the common shooters think it is....since the PROS and best shooters are NOT guessing the yardages...they KNOW them. They aren't guessing where the highest scoring ring is...they practice and memorize those targets and KNOW where the SPOT is; and then, they also have the form and expertise to MAKE THE SHOT too. Sure they get "fooled" now and again...but not very often. Just like field shooters get "fooled" on targets due to wind currents, or up/downhill "cuts" on some targets...and make BAD shots too.

For this sport to survive at either of the venues...it isn't an "US FIRST" and "THEM LAST" attitude that is so prevalent...it IS a "WE FIRST" attitude that needs to prevail..or we'll all remain just a bunch of hicks out slinging sticks with sticks and bickering among ourselves....

As it has been in the past and sure looks as if it will continue in the foreseeable future...bucking heads = competitive archery in general.

field14


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

rock monkey said:


> why do rubber deer have scoring rings? _dots and rings are both round last time i looked_. that would technically make it a 'spot' to aim at.
> 
> i could sit here and nit-pick the cost differences between the two courses, but thats still fallin on deaf ears.
> 
> ...


First off, I'm not arguing one venue over another. However, there is absolutely NO comparison to a field target (field or hunter) and a 3D scoring area. The scoring area of one is quite a bit more apparent than the other, especially with the naked eye. *ell, on an overcast day with the target in the shade, the scoring area is quite evident on a field target. I am not saying/agreeing that all scoring areas on a 3D animal are accurate nor ethical, which makes glassing the target to identify the scoring area critical, especially in less than ideal lighting conditions or if the targets are turned. You glass a field target to identify any patterns with the previous shooters, not to identify the scoring area.

Interestingly there was a poll on AT with this exact topic in mind, defining 3D. The three choices:

1 - unmarked yardage w/ no distinguishing aiming points 
2 - marked yardage w/ no distinguishing aiming points
3 - marked yardage w/ distinguishing aiming points (dots).

Over 100 individuals voiced their opinion. A whole whopping 2.9% chose option number 3. I would venture that if you poll every person that participates in 3D or dots at the club level, the results would be very much the same. End of discussion.

Personally, the club I belong to makes more off 3D. So much so that they cut the number of field shoots to 3 this year. The winter indoor dot league, and shoots, barely makes enough money to pay the oil bill. If the club had to start from scratch, guaranteed the field range wouldn't even be built. Simply isn't enough interest to build a good business case to do so.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Well, lets just see about this cost issue.

Let's say it is $10 per head for registration at the event, OK? So, with 100 shooters at the event...that is $1,000 TAKEN IN...Then, pull out awards, cost of fuel to set the course up and take it down.

NOW....since a 40 target set of 3-D's costs about $3,000 to get...it takes THREE SHOOTS (assuming ALL $10 goes to cost of targets) to PAY FOR THE TARGETS ALONE...more than than when the other costs of running a shoot are taken into account.

SO...the FIRST THREE Shoots or more like 4 shoots on a new set of targets have to take place before a DIME IS MADE IN PROFIT! How may shoots do you have in a 3-D season that draw 100 shooters?????

SO...just REALLY how "profitable" is 3-D? Not much more really than field ranges.

Setting up a 3-D range correctly is something that is very LABOR INTENSIVE...you gotta lay it out, you gotta clear something of a shooting lane (actually INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE DEMANDING A Pre-SET and APPROVED course with established and SAFE shooting lanes), flag out the location of the animals and shooting positions. Then you gotta go out and set the targets, and toss the stakes and bow racks. Then you gotta get water out on the range...then you gotta turn around when it is over...and take all that stuff back out again, haul it back to storage and put it away...Do this 4 or 5 or more times a season...and it is no wonder why HELP BECOMES AN ISSUE in a hurry.

Field course: set it up ONCE. Blocks and paths and lanes are PERMANENT. the only thing to do for a tournament is a bit of trimming (which is normally done all along anyways), some mowing (done routinely anyways), and set out the targets on the bales. Shooting positions never change, lanes don't change. Setting out target faces for a 28 target shoot can be done in 30 minutes, and those targets...are used for a month afterwards...

I'd like to see you get a 3-D round together and ready for a tournament in a couple of hours and just LEAVE IT UP....ain't gonna happen

Set the bales up ONCE and they're good to go. TARGET costs per shoot are very minimal....since once the tournament is over...those target faces are used for practice for about a month or so after...or until the next shoot. Mowing a field range is NOT that labor intensive...if done right... Mowing a "practice range" is essential and has to occur even for a 3-D tournament...cuz ALL 3-D shoots have a practice area, correct?

The cost of 28 bales is a bit expensive...but most of the time the bales last 2 to 5 years....depending on type and how well protected from the elements that they are, AND how heavy of use they get....Amazing at how so many 3-D shooters say that the "field course is never used"...but the target bales get shot to He$$ and the target faces shot out in a hurry thru this supposed NON USE.

Another thing...if a course has NOTHING to practice on...and no range other than 3-D...and the 3-D's are NOT LEFT OUT TO SHOOT...just WHERE on earth do club members get to PRACTICE..

SO c'mon...get REAL here....you gotta give your club members AT LEAST a decent PRACTICE RANGE, and NO CLUB I KNOW OF leaves the 3-D targets out all the time "for practice"....so what is left to shoot on besides FIELD BALES...at least a practice range from 10 to 65 yards, anyways...which is a LEGAL ROUND for FIELD competition...called the INTERNATIONAL round.

The FIELD RANGES get plenty of use...whether the 3-Ders want to admit it or not. The CLUB owes the MEMBERS a place to practice...otherwise the CLUB IS WORTHLESS....and personally, I wouldn't give a DIME to a club that only has targets out to practice on the morning of a 3-D tournament and yet expects the members to be out setting 'em up and tearing them down...and giving NOWHERE to practice in between...

field14:wink::tongue:


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Wow! I do not have a great deal of experience with field archery. My only time was an NFAA sectional about 6 years ago. This is what I am seeing with this little argument. AS IS human nature we want to make everyone see or do things our way, if this were not true we would not have wars. 
What I see as the difference between field and 3D-
1) marked yardage-Yes ASA has some marked format but not all classes and not all targets.
2)visible aiming point-On field and hunter targets you can see where to shoot regardless of the yardage. On 3D target the scoring rings are usually not visible.
3) targets-The targets in field and hunter are not reused shoot to shoot whereas 3D targets are. Initial investment for butts on a field range are the big cost not the target.
4)acreage-It takes a lot more ground to set a 28 target field range than it does to set a 20 target 3D range. With the price of real estate these days it is a wonder ANY archery clubs are still in business.
5)attendance-For whatever reason it seems that 3D outdraws field events. Check the attendance for any NFAA national event and compare it to ASA or IBO not even close. Yes I know that Redding is supposed to have like 8 zillion shooters but I can never find them when I look up the results on the NFAA page or the host's page. I have seen on here field guys talking about having 25 shooters at a shoot. At the $10/shooter example given earlier how long would it take to pay for the butts at $250/shoot?
6)time-When I shot the field sectional it took all day to shoot(140 arrows for score). Then I had to come back the next day to shoot the second round(If I remember was 112 arrows). When I shoot a national 3D event it is over two days and I don't spend all of the two days shooting. I have time to hang out and visit. As far as the one day shoots most folks can go to a 3D shoot and shoot 40, be back home and still have most of the day to do other things.

Not trying to stir up anyone's pot these are just what I see as a casual observer.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

3-D is king because of one reason. It appeals to the MAJORITY of people that own bows . Regular backyard weekend warrior Joe's. Unfortunately these are the very same type of people if times get tuff will purchase a rubber deer for their backyard and stay home. Most will not be converted to a more "economical" version of competitive archery called "Field"

You shoot what you shoot because you love it and you will spend money doing it . The more you love it the more you will spend. I doubt many would go to a cheaper less satisfying game to save money although of course some will. Vegas is pricey but you go because you LOVE everything about the shot. Same format same weekend in Backwoods USA for 1/2 the price draws nothing…

I do fear that many are about to be priced out of the Competitive a Archery game. A new club 3-D can't even start up because the cost of a 40 new targets going over the $12,000.00 - $15,000.00 mark. 


Traveling even an hour to a shoot with entry fee's for ONE person is around $30.00 - $40.00 dollars now and even airlines are going to stick you for a few hundred here soon. I know it does not seem much but with gas up .80 cents a gallon over this time next year, Food prices up 13% over this time last year and other cost going up including the cost to shoot…………. Well $40.00 gets a person to work for 1/2 or more a week and feeds a family member that week….. Archery is going to take a back seat


Like it or not Archery MAY have to go back to the days were target butts can be made out of "junk" like carper , cardboards and clothing scraps. Targets may HAVE to be 2-d Paper. A club MAY be able to put up an entire field course for the cost of 3 McKenzie targets. 


One BIG thing that can help Archery right NOW is to make it more of a recreational endeavor. Every community should have a range and these ranges should be built with playgrounds, Picknick tables / grills on site. A place close to home were the whole family can come for economical entertainment for the DAY even if they don't like to shoot. Charge a whole Family $40.00 to get through the gates of an "archery park" …. Let the shooters shoot a competition while the non shooters are throughly entertained with other activities and you have a winner of a formula. Spend $40.00 for ONE person to shoot for 4 hours…….. Well not such a great idea going forward If you think Archery is going grow based on a bunch of middle aged well to do people that can afford to travel …. Somebody is going to be disappointed


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

My club has 40 3D targets and 28 field.

The 3D targets are left in place all year round and, if they want a competitive shoot, move the stakes. We just don't get too many people from outside for our shoots.

Fortunately we get by because the club is in a very affluent area and most of our members are "patrons" who pay $400 a year to be members, but are not required to do any maintenence. 30 of us are "active" and we are resopnsible for raparing the targets and doing general upkeep.

Even so, very few shoot field. We have a field tournament coming up in July
and the rangemaster doesen't even know how a round is played!

I think that 3D rules currently because the animals are just cooler looking targets, but the average archer would become a better 3D shooter by practicing field archery.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

dhunt1 said:


> Lets start a whole new venue.....3-d Field! One arrow for the 3-d shot then another shot at Field target. Double your fun i say!




Ironically This arguably is the way the "game" should be played for the real deal hunting practice 

Hunting is a Accuracy -vs.- shot placement under field conditions and a REAL hunting based competition arguably should contain the two factors

Heck even MOST run of the mill hunters measure accuracy "success " by the standard "hitting a pie plate at a given yardage" 

A 14 target modified Field course mixed with 3-d Course should be able to be "sold" to the majority……… 14 targets at a KNOWN yardage to test all out accuracy with every other station beign a hunting situation on a rubber deer…….

14 stations 56 arrows with a 20 station rubber doer course for a total of 76 shoots……. Now with such a situation you can set the 14 stations for the die hard Field shooters at traditional distances and make those same stations 50 yards or closer for the hunters. If you just want to shoot 3-D you can shoot 2 arrows into a 20 target course. All field… All 3-D or a combination of the two … something for everybody 

Set something up like this and the work/cost are cut in 1/2 with something for everybody


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I think part of the problem that most over look is detailed in the above post....and in many others that have been posted on AT.

You can't grow or keep anything going doing it ONE TIME in 365 days....

Seriously....how or should I say WHY would I want to get into doing something that I can do ONE TIME a year. 

How many clubs or ranges have ONE 3D shoot or ONE indoor shoot? I have never seen it.....

I know in my area that some clubs have a bunch of 3D shoots and one or two field rounds....but there are also other clubs that are very close by that have other field rounds going on. For example Belvoir (the range I posted pics of) has 2 field shoots this year but the other surrounding clubs have one a month or so.... But if there were no other places to shoot it of course it would be dead or dying or have no shooters show up.

Think about it if you could only shoot indoors ONE time for the year....would you do it?:embara:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> I think part of the problem that most over look is detailed in the above post....and in many others that have been posted on AT.
> 
> You can't grow or keep anything going doing it ONE TIME in 365 days....
> 
> ...



True and the problem is 2-fold 

1) Who wants to set up for 1 or 2 shoots a year ??

2) Who wants to set up and shoot distances that they won't be required to shoot in any other game the rest of the year??

Anything over 50 yards are not "pin friendly" with today hunting/shooting public. While you would think people would suck it up and learn how to use this equipment at longer distances it's simply not going to happen and with MOST people not shooting anything over 50 yards including animals why would they??

Back in the day when Field hunting was introduced you also heard of many of the legends at the time shooting at 50-60 70 yards at game. Today this trend is no more

The ONLY game that has "evolved" with what hunters and shooters do with their gear today is 3-D……….I say why buck the trend. Hunter class in a FHA round should be 15-55 yards in 5 yard increments . For Scope shooters it should be the traditional set up . In fact I would do away with the closer shots like the bunny and stretch that station out a little


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

centerx said:


> True and the problem is 2-fold
> 
> 1) Who wants to set up for 1 or 2 shoots a year ??
> 
> ...


Good points. What kills me with my club is that less than half hunt but most of the compounders use multi pin sights and shoot at the animal targets from the "bowhunter" stakes. They use the field targets to set their sight pins.

When I get 1 or 2 to shoot 14 targets with me they get a kick out of it. Go figure.


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## dhunt1 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Field vs. 3-d*

I personally really enjoy both...When i looked into going back to Field for a while the fees were higher but you also got to shoot more often to hone your accuracy. I'm never going to bag on 3-d because i love to hunt. I really enjoy Field for the extended amount of time i get to shoot. However it also takes more time and with a Family it can be difficult to schedule shooting time every week. So for now it's just going to have to be the occasional 3-d shoot.


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