# Hinge, Thumb or Resistance Release



## superdean00

I bought a HBC last winter. Shoot it for awhile, until 3d season. Thought I would switch back to a thumb trigger for 3d but started to punch again. Then switched back to nothing but my HBC. Even have been shooting my hunting rig with HBC. I can honestly say I am shooting better than I ever have.


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## ron w

I shoot a hinge for everything. I learned using a hinge very well, from the very first arrow i shot as a teenager, when I wanted to start spot shooting and have stuck with it. I've tried all sorts of other releases, of course.... and always go back to the hinge. even with high draw weights, i'm more comfortable and confident shoot a hinge than any other type of release.


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## Padgett

I think it doesn't matter weather you choose a hinge or thumb trigger, both of them produce awesome shooting. I chose to become a hinge shooter and have really enjoyed it and the lessons that I have learned allow me to pick up thumb triggers and shoot them anytime I want without any training at basically the same level as my hinge and that is a positive thing that you get from being a hinge guy. If you only shoot thumb triggers you probably won't be able to just pick up a hinge and shoot a competition at the same level.

That doesn't make hinge shooting more accurate because I really think either method is equally accurate.

The biggest decision you can make right now weather you stay with your thumb trigger or you get a new hinge is to simply decide to never consciously send a poor arrow to the target ever again. When you already know that something is wrong with your hold or form or footing or float or it just isn't firing you simply let down and don't allow the arrow to leave the bow. Once you make this simple decision your shooting experience will change forever and there will be a calming effect that surges through your body that you have never felt before. As long as you give your thumb permission as the shot progresses to go ahead and punch and get rid of the arrow you will never improve as a shooter. Even though it is harder to do this with a hinge because a hinge doesn't have a trigger people still find a way to do it and their shooting suffers and stops improving. So make the decision.

I would suggest getting a tru ball ht or a scott longhorn, either of them will serve you well as a hinge to learn and then compete with if you choose to go the hinge route. You can also send me your email and I will send you all the hinge shooting info that you need to get up and running smoothly.


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## SonnyThomas

Use to use a index release for everything and did exceptionally well. Switched to a thumb release and can't say I shoot any better. I've been "playing" with a hinge (several) for a few years and never really confident to use one for competition and do shoot fairly good with one. I don't believe in any brand/type being better than the next. You learn a release and you learn it.


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## ron w

any release design, that is decent quality, will produce good shots when properly used. the trick is to learn that proper use and learn it well. too many people don't give something new a good enough chance. they try it, think they should be mastering it too soon and then give up because they aren't seeing some significant improvement. the fact is that any release that is learned well, produces the same result, so seeing some significant improvement can be hidden in the fact that it might not show up for a fairly long time, and that time hasn't arrived yet.
in other cases, trying a different release may be like night and day, just be the way it feels after a few shots and you realize it is the release for you, because your shooting improved almost immediately. in that case, it's usually not the release itself, but the interpretation or adaptation of it's use, by your particular style of shooting and anatomy. 
bottom line is simply that's why there are so man different releases available to try. the problem with that, is that a guy can go broke looking for "that one release". many times, the depth of our pockets predicate how well we like the release we're using, or how quickly we learn to like it.


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## dmacey

Terps1 said:


> What do you shoot and why?
> 
> I have a thumb and a resistance and considering trying a hinge again.
> 
> As far as release types which do you prefer for comps?


I use a Carter Evolution+ for everything. Probably habit from my recurve shooting, but it just seems to simulate the feel of my recurve best for some reason - I think because I'm used to a microscopically controlled draw length which a back-tension release forces. I tried a hinge style release a while back and I didn't like how it let me creep on the shot if I wasn't into my back tension correctly - I could still execute a decent shot with a creep and that just irked me lol. 

That's nothing against it, my fault for not learning to use it right lol. I just prefer the consistency in my form that a back-tension forces me to have. I always shoot my compound the best with it too, so I've just stuck with it.

DM


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## Pete53

first all answers are great answers to your question,here`s another twist to : personality plays a major roll on what release will work for you,here`s some examples I am mostly a type A personality so a hinge works best for me,now my son is a type B he can shoot any release well.buy this book idiot proof archery by Bernie pellerite that book will help you understand your personality and help you to figure out why and what release will work best for you,but it might take you a few releases to figure out too.good luck,Pete53


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## Terps1

the one thing i dont get is with resistance (i have an element) and creating more back tension to reach the differential is more pull in to the wall which can cause left/right misses or am i mistaken? 

I have worked with Larry Wise personally for a couple sessions and i think i kept missing the execution (when i practiced on my own) and switched to resistance release. 

Conceptually i am thinking about back tension/rhomboid activation/elbow position and shot execution for any of the release types makes sense that a rotation of the release (like GRIV talks about in his DVD) in place while stabilized with rhomboid activation to hold the elbow dead center behind the arrow utilizes little to no extra pull into the wall, holds the elbow (in theory) in that position and minimizes extra contraction of the rhomboids?

Thoughts?


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## ron w

yah, I don't understand the guys that say, "back tension as a release execution, doesn't allow the consistency you need", either. 
it's been my experience that properly executed back tension, is the most consistent and repeatable release execution I've found.
I think much of that claim, is for the same reason as mentioned above, .....people just don't give it enough time. they want to see improvements too soon.


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## RCR_III

That's been a big debate on here. I personally am in the group that doesn't believe in execution by pulling and moving the elbow around. I like to pull, but not so hard that it disrupts the shot. I also pull in a straight back motion and let my hand give. This creates the rotation in my hinge and keeps things straight as the shot is executed. 

If you put a bow in a mechanical shooter and it is tuned well. It will hit the same spot, or very close to, each and every time. So what's the difference when you add the human element. The human. I try to stay out of the bow's way as much as possible and let it work how it's designed.


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## Terps1

RCR_III said:


> That's been a big debate on here. I personally am in the group that doesn't believe in execution by pulling and moving the elbow around. I like to pull, but not so hard that it disrupts the shot. I also pull in a straight back motion and let my hand give. This creates the rotation in my hinge and keeps things straight as the shot is executed.
> 
> If you put a bow in a mechanical shooter and it is tuned well. It will hit the same spot, or very close to, each and every time. So what's the difference when you add the human element. The human. I try to stay out of the bow's way as much as possible and let it work how it's designed.


I'm with you on this. Kind of why i am wanting to shy away from a resistance as my target release and go to a hinge.


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## ron w

I 've never had that rotation be a disturbance to the shot. I think there is some amount of confusion when it comes to the conception of BT and that rotation. it is so little that you barely feel, or notice any movement when it's done correctly. I think people who have not tried it, or haven't learned it correctly, visualize the "rotation" as some kind of big swinging motion of the elbow. it's not, at all. it's as I say, barely perceptible, even when watching someone perform it well, you have to really watch closely to see the elbow move. my elbow moves about 3/8 inch, that's all. 
I've watched guys with a finger manipulation engine and I can easily see them rotating the release in their hands. that rotation has no foundation. even though the hand may be solidly anchored the rotation is a floating movement, not connected to any one point solidly, what so ever. as you contract your index finger, you are relaxing your other two or three fingers and the entire release is moving independently of your hand and the anchor point....... if you use the static index finger method, the release body is swinging steadily towards the bow with the index finger being the apex of the swing. that motion makes the head of the release moves in an arc, that has both lateral and linear elements if the head is swinging both laterally and linearly from an index finger apex point, the bow string is moving laterally, as well as creeping forward, unless the anchor point compensates for the movement by moving it's location on the cheek,.....consequently, a floating anchor is the result,..... I can't see how it can be conducive to repeatability or consistency. 
in both methods, there is an element of constant pull directly back, in line with the shot, present,..... so to claim one has it and one doesn't is twisting facts by omission, to fit your side of the discussion.
no argument implied,...just plain truthful and factual observation for the sake of clear and equally represented discussion.


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## Lazarus

Terps1 said:


> What do you shoot and why?
> 
> I have a thumb and a resistance and considering trying a hinge again.
> 
> As far as release types which do you prefer for comps?


I shoot a thumb (target) and ring finger pull (hunting) mechanical release any more. 

I made the switch back to the mechanical about 34 days ago after shooting a hinge exclusively for three years. I shoot it because (I am convinced) it is more accurate. Movement is less than desirable, hinges require movement to fire them, period. I had shot the hinge for the three years and shot it pretty well, but I've never ever had a bout with firing anxiety so I'm not sure why I made that original switch. I went through a 5 month spell this spring/summer of shooting well under my abilities. I have no idea why really. But I stepped back and asked myself one day what release I have shot the best ever with and the answer was the button, (Stan ShootOff.) I got a new ShootOff, on the second day I shot it I knew I made a good move. I'm now shooting at a higher level than ever. 

Just my experience.


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## Terps1

ron w said:


> I 've never had that rotation be a disturbance to the shot. I think there is some amount of confusion when it comes to the conception of BT and that rotation. it is so little that you barely feel, or notice any movement when it's done correctly. I think people who have not tried it, or haven't learned it correctly, visualize the "rotation" as some kind of big swinging motion of the elbow. it's not, at all. it's as I say, barely perceptible, even when watching someone perform it well, you have to really watch closely to see the elbow move. my elbow moves about 3/8 inch, that's all.
> I've watched guys with a finger manipulation engine and I can easily see them rotating the release in their hands. that rotation has no foundation. even though the hand may be solidly anchored the rotation is a floating movement, not connected to any one point solidly, what so ever. as you contract your index finger, you are relaxing your other two or three fingers and the entire release is moving independently of your hand and the anchor point....... if you use the static index finger method, the release body is swinging steadily towards the bow with the index finger being the apex of the swing. that motion makes the head of the release moves in an arc, that has both lateral and linear elements if the head is swinging both laterally and linearly from an index finger apex point, the bow string is moving laterally, as well as creeping forward, unless the anchor point compensates for the movement by moving it's location on the cheek,.....consequently, a floating anchor is the result,..... I can't see how it can be conducive to repeatability or consistency.
> in both methods, there is an element of constant pull directly back, in line with the shot, present,..... so to claim one has it and one doesn't is twisting facts by omission, to fit your side of the discussion.
> no argument implied,...just plain truthful and factual observation for the sake of clear and equally represented discussion.


And i totally respect your side. Why i brought up the discussion. You're making a valid point. conceptually its movement nonetheless now the degree as to which it rotates is dependent on the shooter, their execution sequence and so on. I feel my sequence is getting better and the "float" is reduced to where my shots are more consistent. i think immediate improvement is a sign of better execution so i like to practice different execution techniques to see what works, so far i have a combo of pull with rhomboids (elbow more or less like you mention goes straight back) with some slight relaxation of the index so pressure is applied to the thumb barrel (thanks RCRII for the tips). I recently tried setting my element heavy and stupid me forgot to check the differential and it was too high so my shot suffered. When i start to engage the rhomboid/lats i like to keep it to about 1.5 to 2 seconds before the release fires.

to me this is a sport/hobby regardless of level and understanding what can work for each makes us better. some are taught one way and others another. I like to hear ideas and find methods that i can utilize to see what works best.


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## Terps1

Lazarus said:


> I shoot a thumb (target) and ring finger pull (hunting) mechanical release any more.
> 
> I made the switch back to the mechanical about 34 days ago after shooting a hinge exclusively for three years. I shoot it because (I am convinced) it is more accurate. Movement is less than desirable, hinges require movement to fire them, period. I had shot the hinge for the three years and shot it pretty well, but I've never ever had a bout with firing anxiety so I'm not sure why I made that original switch. I went through a 5 month spell this spring/summer of shooting well under my abilities. I have no idea why really. But I stepped back and asked myself one day what release I have shot the best ever with and the answer was the button, (Stan ShootOff.) I got a new ShootOff, on the second day I shot it I knew I made a good move. I'm now shooting at a higher level than ever.
> 
> Just my experience.


Congrats man!


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## Padgett

Terps1, I hope that you get me your email in a pm so that you can read all the articles that I have on hinge shooting. You mentioned shooting one in the past and not liking the creeping sensation or something as you shot and this is something that I have went through and have a article on back tension preload that can really change that type of issue into something that actually compliments your shooting.

Developing a firing engine that fires the hinge is the first portion of your training that takes a few months but that doesn't mean that those are wasted months of blank bailing, you can structure your time spent working on a shot window and back tension preload and studying your float and some of the other things that you need to learn and the nice thing is when working on these things your focus isn't on the firing engine. 

Obviously I don't know where you are at with your shooting, me personally I began shooting 60x rounds way before I actually became a hinge shooter for real and for most people that is the end of their growth. Luckily I kept learning and didn't allow a little success on some scoring rounds stop me from progressing to the shooter that I am today because there were many lessons to learn and accept mentally.


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> I shoot a thumb (target) and ring finger pull (hunting) mechanical release any more.
> 
> I made the switch back to the mechanical about 34 days ago after shooting a hinge exclusively for three years. I shoot it because (I am convinced) it is more accurate. Movement is less than desirable, hinges require movement to fire them, period. I had shot the hinge for the three years and shot it pretty well, but I've never ever had a bout with firing anxiety so I'm not sure why I made that original switch. I went through a 5 month spell this spring/summer of shooting well under my abilities. I have no idea why really. But I stepped back and asked myself one day what release I have shot the best ever with and the answer was the button, (Stan ShootOff.) I got a new ShootOff, on the second day I shot it I knew I made a good move. I'm now shooting at a higher level than ever.
> 
> Just my experience.


I'm in this same camp. When I first got my thumb release, I couldn't shoot with it. But then after shooting a hinge for a couple years, I went back to the button with better confidence and control. I am more accurate with a button.


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## dmacey

Terps1 said:


> the one thing i dont get is with resistance (i have an element) and creating more back tension to reach the differential is more pull in to the wall which can cause left/right misses or am i mistaken?


Actually the contrary is what I've found. It forces you to pull into the back wall with an utterly consistent pressure (plus or minus friction in the cable system). Like I said, I like it because it's like recurve where the clicker forces you to release at the same draw weight and length every time. A back-tension makes pulling into the wall non-optional and the same pressure every time. I've found that it gives me a very consistent shot, I won 2nd in a local tournament with it this summer and that made me a believer lol.

So if you're not pulling through the shot right, the release tells you. It feels like you're pulling 1000lbs and it won't go off; that means ok we've messed up the shot, let down and start over. When I shot a hinge, you could get away with it seemed like to me. I was even creeping on some of my shots and didn't even realize it. It would go off even though the string wasn't on my nose anymore and I had to have someone tell me I was doing it. That's almost impossible to do with a back-tension.

But that's more my fault than the hinge, I probably just didn't learn to use it correctly. But the back-tension is just easier for me and seems to fit my shot method better, so that's why I use it. 

DM


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## SonnyThomas

Terps1 said:


> the one thing i dont get is with resistance (i have an element) and creating more back tension to reach the differential is more pull in to the wall which can cause left/right misses or am i mistaken?
> 
> I have worked with Larry Wise personally for a couple sessions and i think i kept missing the execution (when i practiced on my own) and switched to resistance release.
> 
> Thoughts?


Three experiences with the tension releases.
Friend of mine was on the Stanislawski/Copper John staff. I got to use his Element at the shop. His had Proto Type right in the side plate. Anyway, it was a learning experience. Hold the safety until drawn, release and pull. Pull being key as back tension won't fire it, not his anyway. Had a dickens of time setting it for my bow and don't think we ever got it set all that well. I was shooting a Martin Shadowcat. Anyway, we got it shooting to a good degree and it seemed like it could be pretty good. Seemed I needed to adjust the draw length to bring it together. Asked if I wanted to use it for a few days I declined.... 

KD had the Carter Evolution and was on his way to be a consistent 300 high X ring count shooter. He missed a X you knew beyond doubt the next one dead meat...And he got into antique tractors and antique tractore pulls.

JB also had the Carter Evolution and had troubles. He had it just a few days when he came to the shop to practice. I check on him in between customers and it seemed he was working his butt off. Customers gone I got to watch him. I asked him why he looked so wore out. His reply was he using all the back tension could bring to bear before the Evo would fire. JB looks like one of muscle builders. His draw length looked good and his form looked good. And I don't know what spring JB had in his Evo. I told John to pull a little like he was drawing. From then on he was hammering the bull's eye and doing a pretty decent job on Xs. I figured he was on his way to doing a bang up job shooting 3D. And the next he sold his Evo.
Okay, pure back in loose terms is rotating the release and tension fire releases won't fire with rotation.
Movement to fire a tension release is different, but no than more than that of a thumb release. 

In the HBX thread I brought up the Ele and Evo. Some adjust well and fire consistently and then some set well and don't fire consistently. And then some don't set well and one is fighting either. Have either that can be set well, fire consistently, they can be fine tuned to perfection.


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## dmacey

That's not been my experience with back-tensions, the Carter anyway. I have two Evolutions that I use interchangeably and they're absolutely utterly consistent. I keep them both in my release pouch and pull out whichever one is on top (took me a little bit to get them set identically, but that was a couple months ago I think) and I can't tell the difference between them.

True, when you first start shooting one they feel super inconsistent and impossible to fire, etc. But that's inconsistency in your form and shot, not in the release which is absolutely impeccable (it's Carter's sleeper release IMO). It took me a solid month to stop throwing mine in the junk box after every end LOL! I could have sworn they were messed up, but in a few weeks after I firmed up, they firmed up too.

DM


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> I shoot a thumb (target) and ring finger pull (hunting) mechanical release any more.
> 
> asked myself one day what release I have shot the best ever with and the answer was the button, (Stan ShootOff.) I got a new ShootOff, on the second day I shot it I knew I made a good move. I'm now shooting at a higher level than ever.
> 
> Just my experience.


I thought the Shootoff a great release, but just couldn't take hooking up. Learned to flip the release to make the jaw open, cock it to make the jaw stay open and $%^&&*# closing the jaw on the d-loop. I must be right on the verge of going large because my index wouldn't slip out of the hooked part so I could close the jaw easier. Otherwise it fit great, great adjustment. Got ticked and sold it. I held it up and said; "70 bucks." Man snatched right out of my hand. No regrets here....


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## SonnyThomas

dmacey said:


> That's not been my experience with back-tensions, the Carter anyway. I have two Evolutions that I use interchangeably and they're absolutely utterly consistent. I keep them both in my release pouch and pull out whichever one is on top (took me a little bit to get them set identically, but that was a couple months ago I think) and I can't tell the difference between them.
> 
> True, when you first start shooting one they feel super inconsistent and impossible to fire, etc. But that's inconsistency in your form and shot, not in the release which is absolutely impeccable (it's Carter's sleeper release IMO). It took me a solid month to stop throwing mine in the junk box after every end LOL! I could have sworn they were messed up, but in a few weeks after I firmed up, they firmed up too.
> 
> DM


More than likely that what it is, learning the tension releases. About like Padgett noted once, those who use thumb releases find it hard switching to a hinge. I can shoot a hinge, just never really confident to use in competition.


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## RCR_III

ron w said:


> I 've never had that rotation be a disturbance to the shot. I think there is some amount of confusion when it comes to the conception of BT and that rotation. it is so little that you barely feel, or notice any movement when it's done correctly. I think people who have not tried it, or haven't learned it correctly, visualize the "rotation" as some kind of big swinging motion of the elbow. it's not, at all. it's as I say, barely perceptible, even when watching someone perform it well, you have to really watch closely to see the elbow move. my elbow moves about 3/8 inch, that's all.
> I've watched guys with a finger manipulation engine and I can easily see them rotating the release in their hands. that rotation has no foundation. even though the hand may be solidly anchored the rotation is a floating movement, not connected to any one point solidly, what so ever. *as you contract your index finger, you are relaxing your other two or three fingers* and the entire release is moving independently of your hand and the anchor point....... if you use the static index finger method, the release body is swinging steadily towards the bow with the index finger being the apex of the swing. that motion makes the head of the release moves in an arc, that has both lateral and linear elements if the head is swinging both laterally and linearly from an index finger apex point, the bow string is moving laterally, as well as creeping forward, unless the anchor point compensates for the movement by moving it's location on the cheek,.....consequently, a floating anchor is the result,..... I can't see how it can be conducive to repeatability or consistency.
> in both methods, there is an element of constant pull directly back, in line with the shot, present,..... so to claim one has it and one doesn't is twisting facts by omission, to fit your side of the discussion.
> no argument implied,...just plain truthful and factual observation for the sake of clear and equally represented discussion.


There's your problem. If you're going to contract anything it's the outside fingers as you elongate the index. Contracting the index would make the hinge rotate away from the edge of the moon and it would never fire.


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## grantmac

ron w said:


> I 've watched guys with a finger manipulation engine and I can easily see them rotating the release in their hands. that rotation has no foundation. even though the hand may be solidly anchored the rotation is a floating movement, not connected to any one point solidly, what so ever. as you contract your index finger, you are relaxing your other two or three fingers and the entire release is moving independently of your hand and the anchor point....... if you use the static index finger method, the release body is swinging steadily towards the bow with the index finger being the apex of the swing. that motion makes the head of the release moves in an arc, that has both lateral and linear elements if the head is swinging both laterally and linearly from an index finger apex point, the bow string is moving laterally, as well as creeping forward, unless the anchor point compensates for the movement by moving it's location on the cheek,.....consequently, a floating anchor is the result,..... I can't see how it can be conducive to repeatability or consistency.


The most consistently accurate shooters in the world use a technique which you claim is inconsistent. So unless we start scoring archery as though it was gymnastics I don't see where you have any basis for your statements.

Grant


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## cbrunson

grantmac said:


> The most consistently accurate shooters in the world use a technique which you claim is inconsistent. So unless we start scoring archery as though it was gymnastics I don't see where you have any basis for your statements.
> 
> Grant


Haha..... Too funny. :thumbs_up

It's amazing how people that actually shoot differ in opinions from those who've read about how to shoot.


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> More than likely that what it is, learning the tension releases. About like Padgett noted once, those who use thumb releases find it hard switching to a hinge. I can shoot a hinge, just never really confident to use in competition.


I agree. Like I said, it's probably my recurve bias, I just like to pull into the wall all the way through the shot so a back-tension just appeals to me. A lot less to relearn to use a different style release, which is good at my advanced age 

DM


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## Pete53

back tension is a push and pull and try to keep it equal,shooting a hinge is best with less letoff I use 55-65 % letoff more might be better but my old body can`t handle much more holding weight.last spring I won a F.S. flight class with an ok score 299 48x with a 40 lb. bow 55% letoff hoyt spiral cam, plus I had a terrible hang-over too.maybe try using less poundage bow with more holding weight.you don`t get as tired and the push - pull with a hinge is much easier then and always check your level too. working with larry wise was a great choice ask larry about your problem , his book core archery is another great book to read


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## montigre

Please say we're not going down this bunny trail again....


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## cbrunson

montigre said:


> Please say we're not going down this bunny trail again....


Only so many trails can be cut I think.


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## ILOVE3D

montigre said:


> Please say we're not going down this bunny trail again....


looks like were heading that way.


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## ron w

grantmac said:


> The most consistently accurate shooters in the world use a technique which you claim is inconsistent. So unless we start scoring archery as though it was gymnastics I don't see where you have any basis for your statements.
> 
> Grant


 well,..... they can use it all they want, I don't and I won't, simple as that. the contents of my post are my opinion from 40 years of shooting a hinge.....how many years have you shot one ?.
to be honest, there is a lot of elemental overlap between the dynamics in gymnastics and shooting a bow. I don't understand the reference to scoring gymnastics and shooting a bow anyways,....maybe you could explain that one.


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## ron w

back tension does not in any way have to be "push and pull" I actually never even learned it as "push and pull". your bow side rhomboid is tensed to give stability to the static bow arm and your release arm is doing the release rotation. there's no "Push-pull" involved.
I really don't want to go down that bunny trail either, you guys all know my thoughts on the subject.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> I 've never had that rotation be a disturbance to the shot. I think there is some amount of confusion when it comes to the conception of BT and that rotation. it is so little that you barely feel, or notice any movement when it's done correctly. I think people who have not tried it, or haven't learned it correctly, visualize the "rotation" as some kind of big swinging motion of the elbow. it's not, at all. it's as I say, barely perceptible, even when watching someone perform it well, you have to really watch closely to see the elbow move. my elbow moves about 3/8 inch, that's all.
> I've watched guys with a finger manipulation engine and I can easily see them rotating the release in their hands. that rotation has no foundation. even though the hand may be solidly anchored the rotation is a floating movement, not connected to any one point solidly, what so ever.* as you contract your index finger, you are relaxing your other two or three fingers and the entire release is moving independently of your hand and the anchor point......*. if you use the static index finger method, the release body is swinging steadily towards the bow with the index finger being the apex of the swing. that motion makes the head of the release moves in an arc, that has both lateral and linear elements if the head is swinging both laterally and linearly from an index finger apex point, the bow string is moving laterally, as well as creeping forward, unless the anchor point compensates for the movement by moving it's location on the cheek,.....consequently, a floating anchor is the result,..... I can't see how it can be conducive to repeatability or consistency.
> in both methods, there is an element of constant pull directly back, in line with the shot, present,..... so to claim one has it and one doesn't is twisting facts by omission, to fit your side of the discussion.
> no argument implied,...just plain truthful and factual observation for the sake of clear and equally represented discussion.


Lost me, ron. Shouldn't it be relaxing the index finger and contracting the middle and ring finger?


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> back tension does not in any way have to be "push and pull" I actually never even learned it as "push and pull". your bow side rhomboid is tensed to give stability to the static bow arm and your release arm is doing the release rotation. there's no "Push-pull" involved.
> I really don't want to go down that bunny trail either, you guys all know my thoughts on the subject.


I really think some one says something that means something else or they're confused with a term, "such as push and pull."

In re-learning mode I can agree with ron. My back (rhomboids) doesn't want to work like it should and the only thing I could think to do was grab my hinge and start getting my back to respond as it should. Before the accident I practiced with a hinge. This evening I wasn't "pushing and pulling." I was on target, and using my clicker hinge, I heard the click and I just engaged back tension. Locked in, back working the pin just hung there. Hey, it was hard or took some time, but each every time I got my back to work the release fired smoothly and the arrow found the X ring. I'm far from done as I think to, but my back just sits there for the longest time before it reacts.

Weights and weight machines....My Therapist released me due to simulating drawing 60 pounds. Well, that 60 pounds on the weight machine is a piece of cake compared to drawing a 55 pound bow....


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## dmacey

I've heard different schools of thought on "push pull" in recurve, some are "push pull", some "pull only" and I believe there are "push only" shooters too (I may be wrong tho). And many in between. I'm a "pull resist" I guess is how I'd describe it. But yes, the ideas seem to be real but there's some variation in adoption and teaching in recurve. I don't know about compound tho?

DM


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## ron w

aahhhgggg,,,,,, I said it backwards, no need to point it out,.......you guys know darn well what I meant. Sonny, yup, I meant it the other way around, ...obviously.


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## Terps1

didnt mean to take this thread down the bunny hole. i like the discussion. theory and application are definitely two different things Listening to larry and griv has provided some insight for me about the topic so thats why i brought it up. honestly no one is right or wrong especially in such a subjective topic.


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## Pete53

for beginners in archery its just easier to tell them push - pull, that seems to help new archers some.my good friend I shoot with has a few silver bowls from the indoor nationals in bowhunter F.S. including last year with a hinge and he says it this way push-pull always keep it simple.,even with his bowhunter setup i have seen him shoot 300 60x`s . its just a term to help new archers some.


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## Sasquech

This begs to be answered Hbx shoot it any of the above


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## BullseyeShot

Grant, whats the basis for this argument? Sources? Data?


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## ron w

most people that refute the "back tension rotational release execution method", contend that "all the best shots in the world don't use it, so it must not be any good", because some pro that won Vegas 40 years ago made a video about how he rotates a hinge. and on AT, if a pro says it works, that's all they need to hear. 

the majority of those who do the refuting, have never been successful with it, because they either don't understand it, or are not able to implicate it into their shot for various reasons. 

finger manipulation with a hinge is many times easier to accomplish, certainly, and it evidently does fine, I have no problem with that, and never did, it is just not the way I want to do it, and there are several here, that refuse to allow someone a "different than the consensus" view, about the issue. 
this is certainly not a new issue, .....it's been floating around on AT for years. the ironic thing, is that while those few that refuse to acknowledge the method and insist it doesn't work, they are the ones that are repeatedly calling the few that do use it and know it works,.... "narrow minded and stubborn".
hence the contention that someone who knows about it, "has no basis for his statements".
on a more personal level,.....
my own opinion is that, if it weren't for "internet intelligence", the majority of these people who do all the refuting, would have no basis to refute any issue what so ever. 
,... I speak from 40 years of experience using BT as a release execution, while they speak from a few years of AT membership and what they see in the videos the pros make.....evidently that is all the data and source of evidence, they need.
and then of course, say one thing incorrectly because of a mistake, and your going to have to fight off all the "nay-sayers" that will gang up on you. this is an ongoing issue here on AT and typical of people who have learned everything they know about something on the internet......"if it's on the internet it has to be true".

just my opinion.......


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## Pete53

here`s my very small opinion on the hbx release yes its a great release been using it all summer,but I do have 1 small problem with the hbx and that`s after about half way thru a score ,when I am kinda tired if I have to let down the hbx the hbx can go off on the letdown when my hands are kinda getting tired,i wished it had a good solid lock safety thumb bar like the carter honey-do that locks the hbx from going off.but otherwise the hbx I sure can pound X`s using that release,maybe if the hbx had a 25 lb. spring instead of a 15 lb. that may help??


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> most people that refute the "back tension rotational release execution method", contend that "all the best shots in the world don't use it, so it must not be any good", because some pro that won Vegas 40 years ago made a video about how he rotates a hinge. and on AT, if a pro says it works, that's all they need to hear.


You got that about right. That Field & Stream link. I pointed out Levi dismissing so much and the "heat" came. "He didn't mean that!" Well, if he didn't mean "that" why is it in black and white? Yep, heavier hunting bows, Walk back tuning (not really bare shafting as promoted on AT), normal FOC for hunting arrows instead of 20% and more. Yeah, some "balloons" got broke


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## Pete53

everyone has said some great things about back tension and releases and yes we have all been down this old bumpy road.like I said earlier some people are a type B personality and they can shoot any release and those type B people usually shoot the highest scores terry ragsdale from the past was type B ,jesse broadwater type B, reo wilde type B, levi morgan type B and strong as a bull too and the list goes on.for us normal people who are type A we want to be better archers so we struggle on,some of my good friends are type B and yes they win too ,glad my son is a type B too who can win at will but would rather fish. so us type A`s argue some and may upset or offend someone,sorry its just my small opinion and at age 62 and been in and around archery since 5 or 6 years of age I was raised a bowhunter and target archer second,but what I have learn in those years as a target archer has put plenty meat in the freezer,some animals were killed with a old stano two finger hinge too which to me still might be the best hinge ever made not sure ?but I wish you all a great safe fall hunting with a bow or target shooting.Pete53


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## Mahly

There is theory, and there is execution.

One theory says back tension as a firing engine is more consistent than manipulating the release (hinge) by hand.
In execution manipulation of the release seems to have little effect onconsistency as way too many use that technique with amazing results to refute.
Picking a technique is similar to picking a style of release. They, for the most part, all work. It's "what works for you?"
I shoot a hinge 90% of the time or more. A thumb trigger (usually only if it's too windy for my hinge technique) gets used about 9% of the time, and an index gets used that last 1% ( hunting, just don't want to loose my favorite releases LOL).

This is the result of decades of shooting and learning and developing my technique... lots of mistakes along the way to learn from.
The "why" is much more important than the "what" (style of technique or style of release)


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## Padgett

The real beauty is that right now a guy can come on here and within minutes have his hands on information that he can read and train with without having to suffer for months or years and accidentally stumble into that same info. Having that information isn't a guarantee of shooting success but it is a way for a person to sit down with it and do some reading and thinking and make a decision if it is something that could help them or not.


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## Padgett

One of the biggest problems we have is our own impressions, I can remember in 2007 going to bass pro and dropping 125 bucks or so on a spot hogg thumb trigger the saturday night special I think. I took it home and a day later drove back to bass pro and returned it, I had never shot that poorly in my life and hated the stupid little expensive release. At the time I had no knowledge at all to any of the lessons to be learned and simply dropped some money and expected it to perform. 

Now for the funny part, my hooter shooter at the bow shop came with a saturday night special on it as the trigger release and I have taken it off the hooter shooter and won 3d tournaments with it and even shot a 60x round indoor with it. It isn't a very good thumb trigger but it works just fine and now that I have learned most of the lessons to be learned it is just another choice to put in your hand.

More than anything I would like to sit down sometime and actually make a list of all these little lessons to be learned, then the next step is to put some specific training methods that I used to learn each one of the lessons. I refer to these lessons all the time and I talk about them in general in my archery articles but I have never listed them out specifically. 

The lessons are more of a checklist and when you become a archer you will do some of them right from the start so you already have them checked off but many of them are not obvious and they hide in your form or you mental approach or your aiming and until somebody tells you about that specific lesson to be learned it just goes unnoticed for your entire shooting career.


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## Pete53

socket man,when you get that book wrote I need a copy too ! maybe an old dog can learn a new trick !later,Pete53


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## Terps1

Pete53 said:


> socket man,when you get that book wrote I need a copy too ! maybe an old dog can learn a new trick !later,Pete53


a book covering his topics discussed would be fantastic. i love to hear the trials and tribulations and avoid some nasty pitfalls. reading his and RCRII articles as much as i can! also cracking larry wise's book again.


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## EPLC

A recent release purchase has eliminated all of the above for me. It's called the HBX. I'm loving this release.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> most people that refute the "back tension rotational release execution method", contend that "all the best shots in the world don't use it, so it must not be any good", because some pro that won Vegas 40 years ago made a video about how he rotates a hinge. and on AT, if a pro says it works, that's all they need to hear.
> 
> the majority of those who do the refuting, have never been successful with it, because they either don't understand it, or are not able to implicate it into their shot for various reasons.
> 
> finger manipulation with a hinge is many times easier to accomplish, certainly, and it evidently does fine, I have no problem with that, and never did, it is just not the way I want to do it, and there are several here, that refuse to allow someone a "different than the consensus" view, about the issue.
> this is certainly not a new issue, .....it's been floating around on AT for years. the ironic thing, is that while those few that refuse to acknowledge the method and insist it doesn't work, they are the ones that are repeatedly calling the few that do use it and know it works,.... "narrow minded and stubborn".
> hence the contention that someone who knows about it, "has no basis for his statements".
> on a more personal level,.....
> my own opinion is that, if it weren't for "internet intelligence", the majority of these people who do all the refuting, would have no basis to refute any issue what so ever.
> ,... I speak from 40 years of experience using BT as a release execution, while they speak from a few years of AT membership and what they see in the videos the pros make.....evidently that is all the data and source of evidence, they need.
> and then of course, say one thing incorrectly because of a mistake, and your going to have to fight off all the "nay-sayers" that will gang up on you. this is an ongoing issue here on AT and typical of people who have learned everything they know about something on the internet......"if it's on the internet it has to be true".
> 
> just my opinion.......


Since you now have identified "success" as a criteria, I must ask: How successful have YOU been using the method that you contend is best?


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## bowfisher

EPLC said:


> Since you now have identified "success" as a criteria, I must ask: How successful have YOU been using the method that you contend is best?


Lol !!!!!


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## Mahly

Here's an idea.
Put down what you think will work for the OP.
And let's not worry about what we think won't help.

This won't be a repeat of the earlier thread on the topic.


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## SonnyThomas

grantmac said:


> The most consistently accurate shooters in the world use a technique which you claim is inconsistent. So unless we start scoring archery as though it was gymnastics I don't see where you have any basis for your statements.
> Grant


Daniel Boone has a Thread that gives there are more ways than one of manipulating the hinge. And, this has been discussed to death in here.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924



cbrunson said:


> Haha..... Too funny. :thumbs_up
> 
> It's amazing how people that actually shoot differ in opinions from those who've read about how to shoot.


Too much reading and not enough shooting 

.................................................
And here's the initial Post.


Terps1 said:


> What do you shoot and why?
> I have a thumb and a resistance and considering trying a hinge again.
> As far as release types which do you prefer for comps?


Just about reads like this should be somewhere else....



Mahly said:


> Here's an idea.
> Put down what you think will work for the OP.
> And let's not worry about what we think won't help.
> 
> This won't be a repeat of the earlier thread on the topic.


Yes, I believe we went off topic.....


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## BullseyeShot

I'm not convinced, i need some science otherwise you're wasting my time.


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> Since you now have identified "success" as a criteria, I must ask: How successful have YOU been using the method that you contend is best?


I prefer to shoot pure back tension while allowing my release hand to bleed out excess tension. From my personal experience, pure back tension is a valid and successful method of shooting a hinge. Prior to my last shoulder surgery, I was able to garner a 3rd place sectional win, a 2nd place sectional win, a top 10 at a national event and finally a 2nd place win at a national event. I think that's a pretty decent showing for this method of shooting considering I am an intermediate-level shooter. I also have to add that this method is probably the most time consuming and difficult to learn, but when properly learned, it does work and work well. 

Two shooting buddies of mine also use this method of firing a hinge and each of them has won 4 national titles. So to say it is ineffective, only means there is not enough understanding of the process involved to perform it correctly.


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## ron w

EPLC said:


> Since you now have identified "success" as a criteria, I must ask: How successful have YOU been using the method that you contend is best?


 I contend it s best for me, and never said anything otherwise. the only thing I ever stressed s that is a well known and established method that has been taught and learned for a long time and one that will work for the majority of shooters. 
as far as my success with it,.... no more, or less successful than you and the method you use. we all use the method that we think is best for us. successfully using or incorporating a specific method into your shot process has more to do with being satisfied about the level of your shooting than anything else. 
what's the purpose of that question ?.


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## Padgett

Here is the difference in archery talk now compared to when I first joined, I joined here and for two years suffered and not one stinking time did anyone ever even once offer me anything other than:

You need to shoot a back tension release

You need to choose a resistance release because they are the only true back tension out there

You need to make sure to never allow your fingers to move because that is cheating, you must use back tension only

You need to set that hinge really slow and just get up close and work for months blank bailing and learn back tension.

You need to do all of this subconsciously and never allow your brain to get involved.

Yeah, did I mention the hundreds of dollars that I spent on a carter evolution and multiple hinges and the two freaking years of suffering because I committed myself to learning these things that were presented to me without any explanation.

Now here on archery talk we have hundreds of guys per month that for free within minutes are getting specific hinge setup procedures and specific firing engines to choose from and the mental approaches and other topics. Every bit of this stuff was already here in discussions but once a discussion or thread runs its course it vanishes and for new guys that weren't apart of that thread they were left out and for them the thread would have to happen again or they accidentally find it. This is why it is important for them to have access to all the thoughts in the threads in one place. I know that hundreds of times a month I see a guy in a thread on shooting form and once I send him all the articles and he sees the form articles along with the mental approach stuff I will get a pm and have a discussion with him on something he asks about.

I think that for some of you guys you don't realize how many people are watching these threads like this one, during this thread I have had probably 20 guys who never posted on this thread pm me and ask questions or ask me for my articles. The constant banter between those of us that frequent this thread isn't the important thing going on in this thread, it is us reaching new shooters who just need some direction in their training to open some doors that they never new were possible. I know for some of you that this isn't your goal here, my goal is to become a pro shooter and be competitive against the guys that I look up to and as I learn new things I am going to pass it on as I go. Nothing more or less.


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## SonnyThomas

BullseyeShot said:


> I'm not convinced, i need some science otherwise you're wasting my time.


Convinced of what?


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> I prefer to shoot pure back tension while allowing my release hand to bleed out excess tension. From my personal experience, pure back tension is a valid and successful method of shooting a hinge. Prior to my last shoulder surgery, I was able to garner a 3rd place sectional win, a 2nd place sectional win, a top 10 at a national event and finally a 2nd place win at a national event. I think that's a pretty decent showing for this method of shooting considering I am an intermediate-level shooter. I also have to add that this method is probably the most time consuming and difficult to learn, but when properly learned, it does work and work well.
> 
> Two shooting buddies of mine also use this method of firing a hinge and each of them has won 4 national titles. So to say it is ineffective, only means there is not enough understanding of the process involved to perform it correctly.


Keep pluggin', girl :thumbs_up


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## Padgett

Back tension is effective and it is one of many choices to fire our releases, weather a person chooses it or another method is totally a personal choice. Actually they have a choice if and only if they are shown all of the other choices out there. That was the problem with archery talk and the books we were told to read is that they offered no other choices and even talked down about the other choices making them sound like poor choices. It is not my job as a teacher to bash any other method, it is my job to be proficient at all of them and have the ability to present them for what they are. I do have my preferred method that I compete with but I offer many methods in my articles for a person to choose from.


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## RCR_III

I'll agree on offering different options. There's so many ways to effectively execute with a release and with everyone wired differently, certain ways cater to certain people. That's why I ask how someone is executing currently and what problems and feelings they face with that method. Then it helps me better understand what I need to offer a suggestion to try a certain method out.


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## Terps1

BullseyeShot said:


> I'm not convinced, i need some science otherwise you're wasting my time.


Not sure what you mean. This is a topic that would be too subjective to study. Its pretty much theory and application. Create a theory on how to execute a release and try it.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> Back tension is effective and it is one of many choices to fire our releases, weather a person chooses it or another method is totally a personal choice. Actually they have a choice if and only if they are shown all of the other choices out there. That was the problem with archery talk and the books we were told to read is that they offered no other choices and even talked down about the other choices making them sound like poor choices. It is not my job as a teacher to bash any other method, it is my job to be proficient at all of them and have the ability to present them for what they are. I do have my preferred method that I compete with but I offer many methods in my articles for a person to choose from.





RCR_III said:


> I'll agree on offering different options. There's so many ways to effectively execute with a release and with everyone wired differently, certain ways cater to certain people. That's why I ask how someone is executing currently and what problems and feelings they face with that method. Then it helps me better understand what I need to offer a suggestion to try a certain method out.


I don't know...I think it's the decision making that makes things hard, like yesterday. I liked the first arrow with back tension and then hated the second arrow with working the hinge with my fingers :sad: Probably ought to blame Padgett and others


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## ron w

you can't make up your mind, or even formulate an opinion about a release engine with just a couple arrows. I think that is the biggest problem, people have, ....they make an evaluation too fast or too soon and don't give anything a chance. then they go back to what they were using with the excuse that "you have to find what works for you",.....when a couple arrows with a different method, doesn't really tell them anything. 

Mahly,....this is just my opinion, now...... I don't want to be accused of making accusations or belittling anyone.


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## Padgett

It all depends on how you use that what works for you mentality, I shoot 60x rounds with pure back tension and finger rotation and yielding and all of the methods that I have trained with and when I choose my competition method it is based on the one that allows me to shoot for a week at a time without missing. It has nothing to do with what feels good or what some coach recommended it has everything to do with the fact that it produces better results than anything else I have ever used. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy shooting a 60x round with pure back tension but pure back tension never allowed me to shoot one shooting session without a few misses.

This is how I perceive using what works for me as a positive thing, just trying something for a few shots or for a month isn't near enough time spent. In fact this past winter if you remember I actually set my hinge slow and actually shot for I think about 2.5 months with a slow hinge instead of a fast hinge to give that type of setup a good look and feel since I wasn't competing. I shot really well but something just wasn't right so when I went ahead and set my backspin back to a normal speed setting my shooting took off again to that other level that I enjoy.


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## RCR_III

Blew the fletchings right off. :wink:


SonnyThomas said:


> I don't know...I think it's the decision making that makes things hard, like yesterday. I liked the first arrow with back tension and then hated the second arrow with working the hinge with my fingers :sad: Probably ought to blame Padgett and others


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## montigre

ron w said:


> you can't make up your mind, or even formulate an opinion about a release engine with just a couple arrows. I think that is the biggest problem, people have, ....they make an evaluation too fast or too soon and don't give anything a chance.


I agree with this. Far too often someone on AT comes on and makes the statement that they wish to "try" shooting a hinge to which I cringe--I also cringe with those who claim to have picked up a hinge that same day and shot their best score yet..... Learning to shoot a hinge correctly with any method takes a commitment in both time and effort and really cannot be short-cutted.

To those who state using your back muscles to fire a hinge throws your POI off, I also suggest they may not have placed enough time behind the string with that method to really learn how to keep the front and back halves balanced through the shot cycle. Again, it takes a commitment of months, if not years, to master.

Here's my average 40 yard sets for today at the range--granted I admit going into lala land for one of the arrows and shot it out of the X instead of letting down, but you can plainly see my POI was not negatively affected by my using my back to fire the hinge. 









Similar results can be and are achieved using the other firing methods,but I believe those shooters who strive to maintain engagement of their back muscles are more consistent than those who execute by simply manipulating the hinge.


----------



## cbrunson

ron w said:


> you can't make up your mind, or even formulate an opinion about a release engine with just a couple arrows. I think that is the biggest problem, people have, ....they make an evaluation too fast or too soon and don't give anything a chance. then they go back to what they were using with the excuse that "you have to find what works for you",.....when a couple arrows with a different method, doesn't really tell them anything.
> 
> Mahly,....this is just my opinion, now...... I don't want to be accused of making accusations or belittling anyone.


I definitely agree with that. I know a few that are always trying something new, but never getting any better and can't figure out why. You have to put in some quality time, every time you change something to see benefit to the change. That being said, there are thresholds that are recognizable even for beginners, that once they peak with a certain process or device, it's time to change something, or concede to the presumption that they have reached their maximum potential. If they are told (and believe) that there are specific proven methods that they must not deviate from, it is highly likely that they will not improve beyond the first few stall-outs.


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## Terps1

This is a fantastic thread. I am waiting for my hinge to come in! I gave it several months of continued use but I had no idea to what i know now. So i am in it for the long haul/lots of practice working on exactly what everyone is saying: Best results.


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## ron w

I now a few guys like that , too. if they'd just settle in to shooting one release, or one method for a decent period of time, they would probably discover that any release, or the method they choose, will work just as well as any other. it's all about how well you learn to use it, and if you aren't giving it enough time, you can't learn to use it well.
the ironic element of this issue, is that for most new releases and new methods, you go through phases of an initial period where you shoot real good with it and then a period of not so good shooting, and then back to shooting good again as your shot process make the necessary adjustments to the new method or release. so many get through that first phase where they shoot real good, because it is new and they are really concentrating on execution with the new method or release, and then when that second phase comes along, they abandon the method or release thinking it's not the one for them. their evaluation was made too soon. 
there's a lot to know about how your head works, when it comes to archery and you have to know yourself pretty well to recognize when it's you, or the new stuff doing the good shooting.


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## ron w

terps, 
keep your mind on your execution with that new release...... remember,..... what happens at the bow, dictates what happens at the target !.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> you can't make up your mind, or even formulate an opinion about a release engine with just a couple arrows. I think that is the biggest problem, people have, ....they make an evaluation too fast or too soon and don't give anything a chance. then they go back to what they were using with the excuse that "you have to find what works for you",.....when a couple arrows with a different method, doesn't really tell them anything.
> 
> Mahly,....this is just my opinion, now...... I don't want to be accused of making accusations or belittling anyone.


ron, loosen your shorts. I was funning. Yeah, it happened, but some how the subject gets to the point discussions get too serious, tempers seem to rise. There's no contest in replying to a Poster or challenging what is given by another. Me, if I can't have fun at events I'll make it fun or just leave. I've quit a Indoor, walked right off the line shooting perfect, 10 Xs. I paid to shoot in the first ever Midwest Open at Presley's. Yep, paid my shooting fee prior to and just watched. Never asked for my money back..


----------



## Padgett

I have been teaching for decades and one thing I have learned is that you can't present the same to each person and you can't be afraid of somebody failing and you can't be afraid of somebody succeeding either. 

I personally know a guy who picked up a hinge and within days he started shooting 60x rounds and then within months he was winning with it everywhere and is now a strong pro, I also know people who buy them and chuck them in the classifieds within a week or so. It is way to easy to teach to the middle of the road guy and present yourself in the same way each time, it is hard to look at the person and have the ability to customize your instruction. I would have never believed that decent instruction could come from a keyboard because you present your instruction and then the student goes into the back yard and you have no hands on corrections that you can make, I find that I have to just trust that they are going to do the training in the way I presented it to them in a article or a pm and hope that they actually do what I ask. I know that many many times they go in a totally different direction than I wanted them to but Im not standing there and can't help that issue. To me the key is to present the info in a really easy to follow way that doesn't allow the brain to wander to much from the point or lesson that I am trying to teach to them. 

Being a classroom teacher for 20 years face to face working with them day after day I would have never believed that I could reach as many people from a keyboard but it has turned into one of the biggest joys of my life and I am still trying to improve my delivery. I am not done getting better at reaching people, I have some ideas and am working on them and when I die I hope to have made a difference.

It is so funny, in my 3d group of best friends I do very little instruction. We are all competing and we all talk all day long but we don't really bother each other, I see things all the time that I want to work on with them but we mainly talk about playing the 3d asa game and don't bother each other on form and execution.


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## dmacey

I agree with not giving up too easily. Oddly enough, I read the worst stories about "tension" style releases like I shoot, and IMO, these are the easiest to learn to use at least at the start. The biggest difficulty I had in about the first 2 months I shot with my Evolution was thinking the release was inconsistent. Then I joined AT a few months ago and found thread after thread about how the Evolution was inconsistent and kept going off prematurely or not at all, and so on.

I paid $200 for mine, though, so I decided I'd better get my use out of it before I threw it in the garbage and just kept shooting it, not really expecting much of an outcome. So what the hay..... After about another month or so I noticed it kept getting better and better, more and more consistent and.....

Well you can guess the moral of the story I learned about it. it turns out there's actually nothing wrong with the Evolution at all. And I would argue that's probably the case with other releases here and there that have a bad rap because sufficient time and practice wasn't spent with them.

DM


----------



## ron w

SonnyThomas said:


> ron, loosen your shorts. I was funning. Yeah, it happened, but some how the subject gets to the point discussions get too serious, tempers seem to rise. There's no contest in replying to a Poster or challenging what is given by another. Me, if I can't have fun at events I'll make it fun or just leave. I've quit a Indoor, walked right off the line shooting perfect, 10 Xs. I paid to shoot in the first ever Midwest Open at Presley's. Yep, paid my shooting fee prior to and just watched. Never asked for my money back..


hey,.... I went to Vegas twice,.... just for the fun of shooting there. I knew fully well, I didn't have an ice cube's chance in hell of doing anything other than being one of the "also shots". I had the best time of my life shooting my bow there !. I had so much fun there, that I actually shot my personal best Vegas score during the shoot. that's not going to happen , unless you're having fun doing what you're doing !.
I've walked off the WIS. State Indoor Championships, because I simply was not having any fun that day, as well. did the same thing,... packed my stuff up and had fun watching. if it ain't any fun,... it ain't worth doing.
sometimes, my posts get long and/or a little intense, because I am having fun, relaying what I know, to other shooters.


----------



## ron w

Padgett said:


> I have been teaching for decades and one thing I have learned is that you can't present the same to each person and you can't be afraid of somebody failing and you can't be afraid of somebody succeeding either.
> 
> I personally know a guy who picked up a hinge and within days he started shooting 60x rounds and then within months he was winning with it everywhere and is now a strong pro, I also know people who buy them and chuck them in the classifieds within a week or so. It is way to easy to teach to the middle of the road guy and present yourself in the same way each time, it is hard to look at the person and have the ability to customize your instruction. I would have never believed that decent instruction could come from a keyboard because you present your instruction and then the student goes into the back yard and you have no hands on corrections that you can make, I find that I have to just trust that they are going to do the training in the way I presented it to them in a article or a pm and hope that they actually do what I ask. I know that many many times they go in a totally different direction than I wanted them to but Im not standing there and can't help that issue. To me the key is to present the info in a really easy to follow way that doesn't allow the brain to wander to much from the point or lesson that I am trying to teach to them.
> 
> Being a classroom teacher for 20 years face to face working with them day after day I would have never believed that I could reach as many people from a keyboard but it has turned into one of the biggest joys of my life and I am still trying to improve my delivery. I am not done getting better at reaching people, I have some ideas and am working on them and when I die I hope to have made a difference.
> 
> It is so funny, in my 3d group of best friends I do very little instruction. We are all competing and we all talk all day long but we don't really bother each other, I see things all the time that I want to work on with them but we mainly talk about playing the 3d asa game and don't bother each other on form and execution.


 my daughter was just one of those people. she leaned to shoot at 16 and shot leagues with me using a wrist strap. one night on her second year of leagues, in about the fifth end of her league round, she reached into my release pouch and grabbed my spare Zenith and simply just proceeded shooting her end,.......I was surprised and expected to have to run to the restroom to get some toilet paper for obvious reasons, but she never missed a beat, and she finished her round right on her 296 average! I never coached her about using a hinge at any time during her learning to shoot, and she never asked me about using a hinge previous to that end. the only thing I did was teach her to use back tension with her wrist strap, when she was learning. 
her comment at the end of that round was, "dad, what supposed to be so hard about using a hinge ?".


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> I contend it s best for me, and never said anything otherwise. the only thing I ever stressed s that is a well known and established method that has been taught and learned for a long time and one that will work for the majority of shooters.
> as far as my success with it,.... no more, or less successful than you and the method you use. we all use the method that we think is best for us. successfully using or incorporating a specific method into your shot process has more to do with being satisfied about the level of your shooting than anything else.
> what's the purpose of that question ?.


The purpose of the question was to understand who, from a skill standpoint, we are listening to. Not trying to stir a ruckus but since you have been so steadfast that anyone that shoots any other method then pure back tension is cheating themselves out of the best shooting of their lives I thought it only fair to ask. I personally went down the same path as Padget with the PBT thing and suffered as a result. The biggest problem I had was with the static hand requirement... "cheating the hinge" and all that nonsense. That said, I'm not saying there are not folks that may be successful using this method, I'm just not one of them. I simply can't do it with any degree of success. I no longer try thanks to the flood of evidence that not many "truly successful" archers use this method either. I write this as the 2015 NESFFA FS outdoor field champion in the Silver Senior class. My best finish in this shoot prior to this year was 3rd, and that was last year. It's not my only trinket and I do hold the RI indoor record for the Senior (55-64) AND Master Senior (65-) classes. Now that doesn't make me a world class shooter, but I'll be 70 in November and still can hit my intended target more times than not using back tension to hold with a firing engine that doesn't disturb that hold.


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## ron w

well good for you....just like you, I do what works best for me and m shooting. what's wrong with that ?.I talk about the way I shoot, you talk about the way you shoot, you think the way shoot doesn't work for you and I think, in fact I know the way you shoot doesn't work for me. I can't help that you can't shoot as well using what people here call "pure back tension",....I can shoot that way, so that's the way I think is best, just like you shoot using a different method and you think that method is the best,..... what's the problem ?.
I don't prefer to teach someone your way and you don't prefer to teach someone my way.....you suffered with it,...I didn't and don't,....am I supposed to say "sorry for that", or something ?.


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## ron w

well good for you....just like you, I do what works best for me and m shooting. what's wrong with that ?.I talk about the way I shoot, you talk about the way you shoot, you think the way shoot doesn't work for you and I think, in fact I know the way you shoot doesn't work for me. I can't help that you can't shoot as well using what people here call "pure back tension",....I can shoot that way, so that's the way I think is best, just like you shoot using a different method and you think that method is the best,..... what's the problem ?.
I don't prefer to teach someone your way and you don't prefer to teach someone my way.....you suffered with it,...I didn't and don't,....am I supposed to say "sorry for that", or something ?. 
and when have said, or even suggested, that someone who doesn't use PBT is missing out on the best shooting of their lives. again, just twisted facts and fabrications put into my mouth.


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## ron w

sorry the double post, i'm at the cottage and I forgot to grab my mouse, so I'm using the finger pad and I hate it !.


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## erdman41

ron w said:


> and when have said, or even suggested, that someone who doesn't use PBT is missing out on the best shooting of their lives. again, just twisted facts and fabrications put into my mouth.





ronw said:


> you have to relax your fore-arm and top of your hand and hang on to the release with just your bent fingers, any tension across the hand and arm will make it just about impossiblr to use bt properly. whatever you do, don't resort to cheating and fire the release with your fingers or rotating your wrist, stay with it and learn the right way, you'll be glad you did.


5 second search


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## Mahly

Lets stay on topic please.


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## Terps1

Ok, just put in for a black jack hinge. im excited to learn!


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## SonnyThomas

Terps1 said:


> Ok, just put in for a black jack hinge. im excited to learn!


I've got one. Nice. You'll like the safety pin. Won't bust your mouth while adjusting or training. Will fire, but won't release the string, so no arrow going to parts unknown


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## Terps1

Well crap. I had a line on a BlackJack but it sold before i got to put in for it. Thought it was in the bag bc it wasnt marketed in the classifieds. Going to give it a week to find another if not i will order one.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, if medium, I wouldn't pass up on a nice priced Blackice or BlackiceDS or Pearl. The Onyx is a two finger and you've got to like them. I like my Stan Deuce, but it's no longer made.

I've a bunch of releases and they all worked. It's just I got picky and sold some. The Stan Shootoff, great release, great for adjustment, but hooking up just wasn't my cup of tea. The Onyx was great, but medium that it was it was too small compared to the other mediums I have so I sold it. Learn a hinge, get help, Padgett comes to mind quick, and a regular hinge can be wonderful. My Zenith is proving outstanding and no safety. My first TRU Ball Gold 3 finger, the only thing wrong with it was me not having instructions, sold it after knocking myself to my knees...twice.
If going with a any hinge stay with one-on-one with someone, again Padgett and he's got a Library of information. One-on-one you're not distracted by others....


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## Padgett

I don't have a stan but they are a sweet little hinge, your choice of a hinge isn't going to make or break your experience. They all work just fine and the stan you are trying to get is a good one. 

I am going to remind you that the first day is all about turning the moon so slow that it can't physically fire and just enjoying the shooting session to set up your hinge. Notice I didn't say compare how awesome the hinge shoots compared to your other release you have been shooting with. At no time for months should you compare your old scores or feel or accuracy of your hinge with your old releases. All of us including me who did it had extra years of suffering because of this comparison and things would have went so much smoother. 

If anything never ever fire a practice shot with your old release again and you can go hunt with it but don't practice with it. Only practice with the hinge and what we have found is that when you take that shot with your old trusty you will be more accurate with it than ever before because of the hinge training and your hunting won't suffer but actually get even better.


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## Padgett

4 years ago I shot my hinge on day one at some asa national tournament and I was way down in probably 40 something place, I went into the woods on day two and shot the first 4 targets and got three 8's and one 10 I believe and I put my hinge in my stool and put on my old trusty scott silverhorn. I stepped up and shot 26 up on the last 16 targets of the tournament and went up to 7th place and got my first top 10 ever at a national tournament and was so freaking excited.

Now for the lesson that took me 3 months to learn, as I was walking out of the woods my buddy Sam Woltius saw me and asked me how I had done and I told him that I got a top 10 finish and he said good job. He then asked me if I had used my hinge to do so, and I told him no that I had used my silverhorn. He then lectured me and I told him thanks but deep inside I wanted to tell him to screw off. For the next three months i switched back and forth between the hinge and the index finger and suffered to compare the two and decide which one was better and in all reality all that was wasted time spend spinning my tires in the mudd and going nowhere, my training wasn't focused on the hinge and actually learning how to use it. It was focused on which one would win me a tournament. 

At the time I had nothing to learn from, none of my archery articles existed and there was little to no information available to a new shooter. Right now is different and I hope that your transition is a smooth one and once you start learning the lessons to be learned you are going to love it.


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## RCR_III

I don't know about having issues for years comparing releases. But, I did compare my hinge to my thumb button at first. It wasn't for accuracy reasons all the time though so much as comfort. I went through several hinge releases until I found out Tru Ball made their handles flat like Carter has on their thumb releases. After I got that squared away, I haven't looked back. 

With hand held releases, the feel of them is very important. I will also say the adjustment is important too. I chased my tail with a Scott hinge trying to adjust and micro adjust and the moon just moving too far when I'd loosen the lock screw. 

My Tru Ball HT I started with and then the HBC I have now both have a remarkable micro adjust system on them. It makes it really easy to fine tune and get the perfect feel you want.


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## Terps1

ok, a black jack is on its way and ive looked at Stan's website and the SX2 and black jack have a small discrepancy on the handle that gives me maybe an extra 1/8" spread when i switch to the blackjack. which is fine for now. when i get a podiumx or pce ill make sure the spread is set for the black jack only.

I am reading Padgett's articles and they are fantastic! I cant wait to get everything and get practicing. Also working on my draw strength everyday (both sides equally) and im feeling great.


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## Padgett

Enjoy and don't rush things and just let the process of setup assist you in getting started, you are going to have awesome days and bad days but as long as you keep a positive outlook on your months of training to become proficient you will be good to go.

Good luck and pm me with your good and bad days if you want and I can see little things in your pm's that are red flags to bad things to come and head them off at the pass.


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## Terps1

Padgett said:


> Enjoy and don't rush things and just let the process of setup assist you in getting started, you are going to have awesome days and bad days but as long as you keep a positive outlook on your months of training to become proficient you will be good to go.
> 
> Good luck and pm me with your good and bad days if you want and I can see little things in your pm's that are red flags to bad things to come and head them off at the pass.


Thanks!! The release showed up yesterday. has the .006 clicker on it and seems pretty quick using my d-loop trainer. Hoping to use the set up method this weekend.


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## SonnyThomas

Spoke with Joe of Zenith Archery. He suggested a .006" clicker. Never used one before and find it kind of nice. I can run either back tension or ease up on the index and squeeze with the middle and ring finger. Takes patience. Takes relaxing, especially the release hand.


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## ron w

just remember with that click, to stop the process at the click. the click is there to be the base of the release execution. "anything before the click, is not release execution" and "everything after the click, is only release execution". the has to be separator between , 'getting ready to shoot" and "shooting",....the pause at the click, is the definer that establishes the consistent foundation for the shot to develop from, and the separator of those two phases of the shot. after the click and it's pause, the should be nothing going on , but release execution, acquisition of the target and sight establishment on the X should be all over, at the click. after the click, all that should be left is getting rid of the arrow.
the key is to insert that pause, into the development of the shot at the click, the short pause at the click, assigns the brain to running a good release execution, which should be the only thing left to do when the click sounds. without the pause and the mental assignment to "release execution", at the click, there is no reason for the click to be there.


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## Cryptt

I can honestly say that I switched quickly from a wrist style finger release to a thumb and finally to a hinge. Each change brought me better technique but with the thumb, while my groups were tight I could feel that I was still exerting more force than necessary. I switched to a hinge and I find that its taking me longer to adjust to but I am enjoying the process of learning how to manipulate my body in order to slow the process down, pull through the wall in a more consistent manner and I find its more organic in nature. I'm a physical therapist by trade so I enjoy breaking down the process muscle by muscle and I can say that when one learns to break away from simply pulling and evolves to a true "draw" technique using the appropriate muscles you benefit so much more. I attribute the lengthier process of adjusting to my hinge to this "muscle learning." 
I know that when I shoot my hinge, I feel more "connected to the bow" as I can feel the changes in my technique better than I did before with a swivel head thumb release which removes that feeling.


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## ron w

I've shot a hinge for so long, nothing else feels even remotely comfortable or confident, regardless of draw weight, or bow, or shot situation, I always feel better with my hinge.


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## SonnyThomas

Yep, the click is there for a reason. Some suggest not using a clicker because it can lead to rushing the shot, snap shooting or target panic. No different anything else about archery, a release must be learned. I noted this somewhere or more than a few times, learning your release regardless of the what the release is, index, thumb or hinge. Once set forget it. After that, more than likely anything not going well is you, not the release


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## Cryptt

ron w said:


> I've shot a hinge for so long, nothing else feels even remotely comfortable or confident, regardless of draw weight, or bow, or shot situation, I always feel better with my hinge.


I have to agree! My hinge just feels like it belongs attached to my hand and bow. I feel like its part of the process rather than a tool. Plus it does slow me down a bit more which helps my form.


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## ron w

as far as the click hurrying the shot,.....that's the idea of "proper mental application" that must be adhered to when learning to use a hinge and shooting at the short bale. when the mental application is right, the shot process learns to run correctly. 
with the click in place, you have to acknowledge that it is there and properly apply the right mental process to make use of the click being there. when learned correctly, the click, becomes the basis, or foundation, of the shot's release execution. it learns to have all it's ducks in a row, by the time the click sounds, then all that is left is hard aim and running the release execution.


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## Padgett

The thing that scares me is that you are playing with a string trainer for a few days and then going to do the setup routine this weekend, that can lead to problems. It is ok to do the string trainer thing but it should not be used to assist with your hinge set up at all. Your hinge setup must be done with your bow and you must completely start over and not use the string trainer setting at all. If you do you will allow extra fear and tension be inside your hand and forearm as you begin. 

Set the hinge to where it can't fire at all and then do the hinge setup routine with a soft hand and you will be good to go.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> The thing that scares me is that you are playing with a string trainer for a few days and then going to do the setup routine this weekend, that can lead to problems. It is ok to do the string trainer thing but it should not be used to assist with your hinge set up at all. Your hinge setup must be done with your bow and you must completely start over and not use the string trainer setting at all. If you do you will allow extra fear and tension be inside your hand and forearm as you begin.
> 
> Set the hinge to where it can't fire at all and then do the hinge setup routine with a soft hand and you will be good to go.


????????? Didn't see the underline.....Still, using a trainer and doing the real thing is different.


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## 1tiger

ok. I have three questions for all the good hinge shooters.
1. why do I feel so mentally drained after each shot shooting a hinge.
2. how many shots will it take for that feeling to stop.
3. I am anchoring with my index knuckle at the bottom of me ear lobe because I cant get a consistant anchor using the jaw line,so I see most pro's using the jawline. so what will help me get a consistant anchor at the jaw line. 
thanks


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## EPLC

1tiger said:


> ok. I have three questions for all the good hinge shooters.
> 1. why do I feel so mentally drained after each shot shooting a hinge.
> 2. how many shots will it take for that feeling to stop.
> 3. I am anchoring with my index knuckle at the bottom of me ear lobe because I cant get a consistant anchor using the jaw line,so I see most pro's using the jawline. so what will help me get a consistant anchor at the jaw line.
> thanks


Sounds like your draw length may be too long, and/or your peep may be too low.


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## ron w

you'll also notice, most pros aren't shooting a short ATA (the typical 31" to 34" ATA hunting bow, that we all see everybody at the range using) bow,.....there's a reason for that.


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## SonnyThomas

1tiger said:


> ok. I have three questions for all the good hinge shooters.
> 1. why do I feel so mentally drained after each shot shooting a hinge.
> 2. how many shots will it take for that feeling to stop.
> 3. I am anchoring with my index knuckle at the bottom of me ear lobe because I cant get a consistant anchor using the jaw line,so I see most pro's using the jawline. so what will help me get a consistant anchor at the jaw line.
> thanks


One or more of several things. EPLC noted two. If just switching over, yes, you may very well have to correct the peep height. Unless some medical issue there is no reason why you can't anchor to your jaw line. Mentally drained can be form, pulled out of position that you seem to point to. It may be due to your present anchor and if your release arm isn't positioned correctly it may be taking longer and taking more effort to fire the release. And then the release aid, if set too cold it takes longer to fire and this can lead to you thinking (brain at work making things hard).


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## Terps1

Padgett said:


> The thing that scares me is that you are playing with a string trainer for a few days and then going to do the setup routine this weekend, that can lead to problems. It is ok to do the string trainer thing but it should not be used to assist with your hinge set up at all. Your hinge setup must be done with your bow and you must completely start over and not use the string trainer setting at all. If you do you will allow extra fear and tension be inside your hand and forearm as you begin.
> 
> Set the hinge to where it can't fire at all and then do the hinge setup routine with a soft hand and you will be good to go.


Yup very much agreed. I use the string trainer as a way to keep the draw movement and stance a fresh process so when i transfer to the bow im not missing a beat. I actually dont fire the release a lot when using the trainer. more for positional awareness and creating tension in the back muscles while relaxing the arms.


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## ron w

I can't agree at all, ......
I know many , many people, including my self, that learned to use a hinge with a draw string of one kind or another. it's all about how you set the draw string up. if you set it up to represent your bow's draw length,...exactly,..... they work perfectly fine.
and I think I know a little bit about using a hinge.


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## Padgett

I use and even have a method for making a cool string trainer, I really like the one that bernie has at his booth and plan on making one of them one day and have a plan in my mind that could be really cool.

That doesn't change the fact that I don't recommend a person to set up their hinge on a string trainer as far as speed and overall feel and then go straight to the bow and expect it to be perfect. To me this is a perfect opportunity to allow fear into your hand that you are going to misfire and open the door to extra muscle tension into your shot. So I always stress to new shooters to use the string trainer and enjoy it but when you go to your bow you should do the hinge setup routine completely as if the hinge is right out of the box and get it set to a soft hand.


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## Padgett

Keep in mind this advice is based on the fact that I believe in a person working on their hinge speed as part of their ongoing training, I am not a set it slow and blank bale for months guy. I am a set the hinge to your perfect grip guy and work on it from time to time to improve its feel and find a speed that is working for you instead of against you guy.

I already know that most of the regular guys know that I do things this way and am only stating it to give a new hinge shooter reading this post a door to go through if they want to pm me, I have articles on this subject they can read if they want them.


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## ron w

things like hinge speed and changing it as your learn and develop are pretty well a "given issue" that is included in most reading about the subject, it's not something that one person alone, is exclusively doing as "a teacher of the use of hinges". I don't know a single coach that works with hinge students or any material written about it, that doesn't touch in this. the key is that it is done, or experimented with at an appropriate time, with the understanding that often times, changes as you are learning, only lengthens the learning time. mentioning the issue of adjusting the release as you are learning, as introductory issue, can lead to people having the tendency to fiddle with their release, instead just setting it to a decent engagement depth and leaving it alone to concentrate on learning to run the execution well, before experience and development is established enough, that a change doesn't set back what development has been made and ingrained. 
as I've said before learning to use a hinge is hardly as simple as a "step by step" process,....if it were, people wouldn't be saying they "can't do it", or as you claim, "spending months in front of the blind bale' just flinging arrows because they don't understand the mental application, which is more than reading a "step by step" sheet of instructions.. and there are certainly plenty who say, they "just can't do it", ....it might be because they have been mislead about it being a "step by step" process. that is not to say that only "certain people" can learn it, but you're not going to learn it by reading a step by step instruction sheet, unless you understand the mental application first and foremost... the mental application to learning to use a hinge is far more important than the physical, "step by step" activity of using one. physically, I believe anyone can run a hinge, mentally, however, there some who have problems applying the mental aspect of the execution to their shot and that aspect of learning of the process, may take those people longer than others....that is something that not necessarily everybody can learn, "step by step"..


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## Chris1ny

Thumb. More gentle on the body and joints.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> things like hinge speed and changing it as your learn and develop are pretty well a "given issue" that is included in most reading about the subject, it's not something that one person alone, is exclusively doing as "a teacher of the use of hinges". I don't know a single coach that works with hinge students or any material written about it, that doesn't touch in this. the key is that it is done, or experimented with at an appropriate time, with the understanding that often times, changes as you are learning, only lengthens the learning time. mentioning the issue of adjusting the release as you are learning, as introductory issue, can lead to people having the tendency to fiddle with their release, instead just setting it to a decent engagement depth and leaving it alone to concentrate on learning to run the execution well, before experience and development is established enough, that a change doesn't set back what development has been made and ingrained.
> as I've said before learning to use a hinge is hardly as simple as a "step by step" process,....if it were, people wouldn't be saying they "can't do it", or as you claim, "spending months in front of the blind bale' just flinging arrows because they don't understand the mental application, which is more than reading a "step by step" sheet of instructions.. and there are certainly plenty who say, they "just can't do it", ....it might be because they have been mislead about it being a "step by step" process. that is not to say that only "certain people" can learn it, but you're not going to learn it by reading a step by step instruction sheet, unless you understand the mental application first and foremost... the mental application to learning to use a hinge is far more important than the physical, "step by step" activity of using one. physically, I believe anyone can run a hinge, mentally, however, there some who have problems applying the mental aspect of the execution to their shot and that aspect of learning of the process, may take those people longer than others....that is something that not necessarily everybody can learn, "step by step"..


Spent some time with Mike Flier today. Mike won the 2014 NFAA Outdoor National Championship while competing in the Senior Men's Freestyle Division. Today was Play Day and Officer Election Day. I brought all my releases with me. Mike wanted to know what I brought and I piled them up for him. He selected all the hinges, all Stans; MagMicro Trio, Deuce, Blackjack and Zenith. You would have thought all were set for him, just pounded the 20 yard X ring and did much the same at 45 yards. He had owned a Zenith before and praised it. Mine was set a bit slow, but I couldn't tell much difference in his release time. He noted the Mag too large, but he sure piled up the Xs with it. He noted the Deuce a tad fast where I thought it was a tad cold. Still, he was punching one holers with the Deuce. The Blackjack he liked. All said done he wanted the Deuce, but I wouldn't sell. He then laid out enough to take the Blackjack. The thing is, he knows and it didn't take him but a couple shots to figure out each hinge.


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## ron w

once you learn a hinge technique and have it well developed and ingrained to run by itself, the "speed", (I don't know why everyone insists on calling it that), engagement, doesn't mean bones about running the execution. you simply continue the motor until it fires. unless it's set ridiculously deep, it makes no difference.
that's why I contend that setting decently and just leaving it alone, until you get the hang of running the engine, is the best way to learn. being motivated to adjust as you learn, simply delays that curve, by having to readjust to a knew feeling every time you change it.......that can be distracting and some what thought provoking about an issue that should not be being thought about while learning..


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## Mahly

Speed: how fast the release will fire with a given rate of rotation.
You keep it going, but if it fired outside your optimum hold window.
I prefer a click keep everything as consistent as possible, but I can see the point of going without one.
I will say, setting up my hinge to get to the click at the right time, helped me draw relaxed and without anxiety, yet not needing much movement to get to the click.
Setting to optimize to your shot makes sense to me.


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## ron w

it certainly does, ...make sense to me , too. but not while learning to run the engine. just set it somewhere decent and leave it, until the engine is running by itself, well and well ingrained. no need to distract the learning by thinking about whether the engagement is good, or not. if It isn't firing too soon, or it isn't taking so long that you feel like it's never going to go, just leave it and work on what you are there to work on.
as you are leaning, you have no idea of what might be an "optimal position" for it to be in, to help your shot,....you are learning to run an engine, not make adjustments to see of it helps or not. unless it is ridiculously shallow, or ridiculously deep, work on learning to run the engine. changing it , is only going to serve to instigate more changing, while you are learning.


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## Padgett

Leaving your hinge alone does many things to you especially when you are learning, it forces you to change the grip of your hinge in your hand over and over because you are standing there and it won't fire so you squeeze your fingers differently or put the hinge deeper or shallower in your fingers and then you over time find a grip of the hinge that allows you to fire. Then you may have a weird grip on the hinge that you have now set in stone as your primary grip for the next few years and once you get a few years down the road it becomes very hard to change and let go of those bad habits. By spending the time to commit to a really good j-hook grip on the hinge with a soft hand that doesn't have any muscle tension in it tied to fear of your hinge you can then change the moon only and leave the good grip alone, in the end you will be better off than the guy that messed around with his grip and ended up with a weird setup based on that original speed setting.


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## Padgett

The one thing I wish someone would have advised me about was to have more than one hinge and setting them different, I do not advise trying to set all of your hinges exactly the same. There is so much to learn from having a hinge set normal and then one set slower and one set faster than normal. My normal hinge is the one that I compete with and it is the setting that gives me the best shooting day after day month after month, this setting can last for a long time but I actually shoot with other speed settings all the time in fact every day. Normally I use the slower one as my warm up hinge to loosen up my firing engine and enjoy a nice smooth longer shot and then I will go right to my competition hinge and smoke the course. But there are days when I shoot some with a faster hinge than normal and it reminds me of why my competition setting is the good one because of the extra mental fear of it firing when I draw and firing before I am ready.


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## jelmore

I started shooting a hinge last winter after being fed up with the target panic reaction of the bullseye triggering the shot. It took awhile to be able to observe the pin on the bullseye and not wanting to punch or trigger the release. The only way I could do it was to use the "the pure back tension method" until the shot broke, any attempt at finger manipulation led to flinches and punches. The problem was when I increased the back tension to start my firing engine my pin would pull off target but that was better than a flinch. About a month ago I reread the Padgett article on the sam wolthuis firing engine, ive been practicing this for a month and the results are great, the smooth release of the thumb off the barrel doesn't move my pin and my release feels like butter. My point is that both these techniques have served me well and my shot is a 100 percent stronger than ever.


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## ron w

i's all about the correct mental application. we have to understand the semantics of a good hinge shot, in order to learn to do it correctly. 
the issue of sight picture, is what runs your shot execution, there is no other may around that mechanism. .....you draw, settle in and see the pin or dot floating in the center, and that send the signal to run the release. the correct mental application teaches the shot process that seeing the pin in the center is a good thing, instead of something that causes the anxiety that brings on punching or worse,....target panic. 
during the time learning the engine, we apply the idea that the shot should run automatically, as we see the pin float in the center, if this wasn't true, shots would simply go off, no matter where the pin was. by doing close bale work and let down drills, we teach the shot process, to only run when the sight picture is correct, and then to only run on one specific set of commands. what that does is teach the shot, to run when our sight recognizes the right sight picture and run the same way every shot. 
we cannot avoid, the shot running by sight....it is the whole criteria behind drawing and aiming our bow. the key is to teach the shot process to do the right thing at the right time, in relation and response, to what is being communicated to it, by our sight.......if you step up to the shooting line, close your eyes and draw, when to you run the release execution ?. if it runs, it is consciously told to run and the bridge between sight and execution has not yet been developed to a point that the execution only runs automatically, triggered by the sight of a good alignment at the center of the target. 
that is the key element. the execution may be developed to run automatically, but it requires the picture of good alignment with the center of the target, to go into that function without the conscious decision, that makes it run. when we see that good sight picture and our release execution is trained to run automatically on that good sight picture, when the element of the sight picture within the shot process, is taken away, the release process will not get the signal that says "run the release" without conscious thought. at that point, with your eyes closed, our conscious mind over runs the sub conscious automatic trigger and tells the release execution to "run" despite the sight picture missing.
if you investigate closely into the condition of a person that is blind, shooting target, you will learn that the feel of the bow hand against the rod that is used as a sighting guide, replaces the sight picture. if the feeling isn't exactly right, the release execution doesn't run. the better the unsighted shooter, recognizes that feeling as being exactly right, the easier the shot will run. that feeling replaces what the unsighted shooter cannot see.
bottom line, there has to be some semblance of correct alignment, by sight or feeling (in the unsighted shooter's case) that automatically tells the release process to send the order to run the release.
if while a full draw and the target acquired, we see the pin float out of the center, our subconscious automatically stalls the procession, until the pin comes back to the center respectfully.
if the shot process doesn't stall, it hasn't yet been taught well enough, to only run when the sight picture is good. in that condition, there is more than one set of commands in the "process bank" (so-to-speak) and the wrong set has been chosen. something the let down drills teach, is to only listen to the ne set of commands that produce the right results we are after. those drill do this, by throwing any incorrect set of commands in the trash can, by letting down and thus, refusing to run on that set of commands. when this is done enough times, it eliminates any set of commands that is not the one that produces the right results. it's really no different than training a dog, by not giving it a treat whenever it does something other than what you are specifically telling it to do. 
eventually the dog learns that if it wants a treat ( that shot in the X-ring), it is going to have to do specifically what you are telling it to do. by letting down on a poor shot set up, you are refusing to give that dog a treat, because it didn't do specifically what it has been told to do. eventually, the dog learns that when certain actions an/or words are heard, the what it is specifically supposed to do, is automatically done,....and it gets the treat. we've all seen dogs do ricks by just one small gesture from it's owner,......this is exactly what is going on...... the dogs sees or hears the gesture, and it automatically does exactly what it knows, will bring that treat.


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## Padgett

Jelmore, hey I am glad to hear you are getting on top of things and enjoying your shooting. I did go back and tweak the Sam Woltius method a little and I am going to send it to you in a pm for you to read again and maybe you will like the way I wrote it.

The more you learn the lessons you will progress to the point where all of the methods you choose basically perform at the same level and you can then just choose the one that you enjoy the most, good luck.


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## grantmac

I fire and setup my hinges using Padgett's methods.

I keep two identical (mostly) hinges. One has a click and is slightly hotter, they other smooth and slightly colder. Because my process is slightly different with and without click I want to KNOW which hinge is in my hand. To accomplish this the click has a smooth thumb barrel, the smooth moon has a knurled. If I remove my thumb from the smooth barrel and it DOESN'T click I let down.
As for which performs best I haven't done enough sampling indoors to tell. I prefer the click on hills and the smooth in wingwind.
I will be looking for a complimentary thumb trigger over the winter.

Grant


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## ron w

Mahly said:


> Speed: how fast the release will fire with a given rate of rotation
> 
> I know what "speed" is and means concerning a hinge, Mahly. I said, I don't understand why it is called that. it has nothing to do with speed,.... time yes, but time is not "speed". I guess it falls into the same misinformed conception basket, that makes people call a "hinge" a "back tension release".


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## Mahly

It's easier to think of it in relative terms (once I start my firing engine, how long does it take for my hinge to fire) vs. looking at it literally (once starting my firing engine,how many degrees of rotation to I need to get this hinge to fire).
All semantics.


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## ron w

given that a good release execution is developed through consistent rotation, be it by hand manipulation or back tension rotation. the determining factor of the shot breaking, is the depth of engagement between dump and moon. relatively speaking,..... the deeper that engagement,.... the more time (more rotation) it takes to fire,.... the shallower the engagement, the less time (less rotation) it takes to fire,
where is speed involved ?.
Mahly, perhaps you could explain this to me.


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## SonnyThomas

ron, it just words people use. Fast/slow and cold/hot describes settings of hinge.


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## jelmore

Thanks Padgett. For me learning to shoot this hinge has been an awesome thing for my shooting. Even my thumb trigger shooting is much stronger. I pulled an old index finger release of my bench the other day just for fun. Its the kind that you open and close the jaws with the trigger. In the past this would have been flinch and punch time. But this time I just sat there feeling the trigger moving, moving, moving some more then finally going off. It was a great feeling that I was able to just let that trigger keep moving and had zero pangs of anxiety when it was going to fire.


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## ron w

I know that....I have an issue about people "just using words",.....there's plenty of them that mean the right thing and can be used correctly to mean what is being talked about,..... that's one good thing about the English language...... it has more words that any other, why don't/can't people learn to use them. 
why take the time to spell "back tension release", when you could spell "hinge" and mean exactly what you want to mean......"back tension release", means any release that exists, further,... the way hinges are currently being used by evidently the majority of people that use one, " back tension" has absolutely no relation to a "hinge", at all.....so why even call it a "back tension release"?.
"speed",.... has nothing to do with any release, or it's function or use, what so ever. so why call the sear engagement setting, the release's "speed" ?,.... just because the word exists.


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## Mahly

If it gets from point "a" (anchor, ready to start) to point "b" (arrow gone). 

We know more about where point "a" is than point "b".
I for one don't want to think about it as "how much rotation have I given the hinge" rather than "how long is this shot taking".
I don't know how far I need to rotate my hinge to get it to fire. I do know that I can normally say how long it took to fire.
Points a and b are different for everyone, but the thing MOST look at is how long it takes to get from a to b.
Again, it's purely semantics (I don't call a hinge a back tension though).
Perhaps you could talk to the sources. I for one have a TRU Ball ht. Stands for hot tension. It stays the same temperature no matter how I set it.
People know what it means, and aren't confused.

That said, let's get back on topic. The definition of speed, heat, and tension are not the topics.
There is no need to correct grammar here. In fact, its kind of against the rules.

We now return to our regularly scheduled topic.


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## ron w

not correcting grammar, it's a matter of using terminology that is pertinent to the subject matter. there's nothing wrong with people's sentence structures. if you know how long it takes to fire your hinge and you know when "a" started, your internal clock will put the rest into focus and it know when "b" is going to happen. it's why your internal clock exists. most of the drills that are focused around the shot window are designed to operate around training your shot process to operate within the natural timing , your internal clock develops and records.
everybody's is slightly different.
if you understand the process that is, "your naturally individual shot window" and everyone has one, once their shot execution is developed beyond the learning stage, the idea that "b" is a product of "a" becomes evidently clear. 
that's how your internal clock works. it precisely knows that element of time and can punch out of the "shot timing meter" and punch back in, as the shot develops, as you momentarily suspend the procession, during the development, because of sight picture going bad or other reasons. the whole idea of the shot timing drill, is to develop the procession to run consistently, which forces the peripheral elements, such as aiming and float, to stay in line, until "b" happens. he more consistently "b" happens at the same time, the more potential to hit the center and the more accurate your internal clock gets at keeping track of the time element between "a" and "b". 
in your above post, where you attempt to explain what I posted about, I don't see any mention of "speed", can I assume that it is because "speed" is not an issue related to the use of a hinge ?.


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## Padgett

One of the things that is going to be way different in my hinge shooting compared to Ronw's hinge shooting is that I can totally set in stone how much rotation I am going to allow and the pressures in my system to achieve that rotation and with ronw's approach he has to be willing to alter it.

So why did I say that?

Because I refuse to change my engine or the grip of my hinge and I choose to change the speed of my hinge to match the engine and grip that I am using, I run my engine and the hinge either fires or it doesn't. I refuse to add tension or grip pressure that is not part of the firing engine so my shot is very consistent and the release either fires or not, then I spend the time to work on the moon setting to speed it up or slow it down and find a setting that allows my hinge to fire with the effort that I am willing to give.

With the approach that ronw promotes you are going to set your hinge to some speed and then you are going to leave it there and spend a lot of time working on learning how to fire it and that is going to include everything but changing the moon setting, you are going to have to change your grip or change the amount of effort rotating or change the amount of back tension or something to find that physical setting that allows you to fire the hinge. 

The one thing that always struck me was that when I am learning and a low level hinge shooter why would I want to set in stone some hinge moon setting when I really don't know what is going on. If you do that you then have to live with it and your body is going to develop habits to deal with that setting that may or may not be good habits, of course you could get lucky and pick a good setting but with a moon that has at least 180 degrees of setting to it more than likely you aren't.


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## Padgett

For those of you just watching this thread and not posting, these are the little decisions you can make to follow in your stages of becoming a hinge shooter. I can remember having to give away a couple of my hinges in the beginning because they were eating up my fingers, i had blisters and sore spots and lots of pain with one of them a little stan micro III. I absolutely hated that hinge and felt a relief once I got rid of it, funny thing is that once I started learning the proper methods and setup I actually got it back and one day I had a guy on here asking about it because he had one and I went through my setup routine and found that that little hinge is actually a really cool hinge. I actually competed with it at two iowa pro ams and still shoot it from time to time enjoying it.

So, read all the information from the guys in this thread and the other threads and find a way to get the information that you believe will be the best for you and get on your way. We have more than one approach right here for you and all of them work, I love mine but that doesn't make them the only way. It just happens to be what I enjoy doing and has served me well.


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## ron w

nonsense Padgett,......quite trying to fabricate some kind of difference between what I am saying and what is the truth. 
a well developed execution is exactly that, very consistent and not affected by the release in your hand at the time. I never said to leave the release alone, only to leave it alone .....WHILE YOU ARE LEARNING THE ENGINE...... AND TO SET THE HINGE AT SOME DECENT ENGAGEMENT SETTING.....THERE AGAIN,...... QUITE TRYING TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH AHD TWIST WHAT I SAID. you can teach what ever you want, and I will continue to say what I say. 
it's very obvious that one or some of your "students", or people in general, are questioning what you are teaching , in relation to what is being said , here on the forum. if that weren't true, there would be no reason to try and discriminate what I say compared to what you saying a specific tone and reference. this forum,.... for it's purpose,.... is not about who's right and who's wrong, or who's way is better, and who's isn't better, on a comparative level.....which is exactly what you just did in that post. the only reason to do that, is to make one method look better than another. this forum is about exposing different ideas and methods and the opinions that support them, not making one guys method look better or worse than another's.
ya' know, the difference between you and me is that i'm don't have to worry about what anyone says, because i'm not teaching anyone to use a hinge, i'm putting it right out there voluntarily, for everyone and anyone to read and learn. they don't have to ask me for some e-mail behind the scenes.


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## Padgett

Umm, if you run your wonderful well developed execution with your hinge and nothing happens and you are standing there and the hinge isn't firing over and over at some time you have to do something. 

If you leave the hinge alone and don't change the moon setting then you must change your grip or execution or you will continue to just stand there. That is exactly what you are referring to when you mentioned learning the engine. For most people this could be a few weeks or months to become proficient at that engine and that is a long time to wait to make any moon changes.


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## Padgett

I know that we will never sit at a campfire and enjoy a steak and some fried taters, I also have a feeling that you haven't read the 54 pages of articles that I send out to people all day long every day. They were all created from these discussions right here on archery talk and they have been tweaked from the original form that was usually just a post in a thread. 

You know that I do paste and copy a occasional topic and put them here and that it isn't right to put all 54 pages in each thread. I watch nuts and bolts take over a thread with tons of posts that and I just never wanted to approach things like he does so when someone wants the stuff they get it in a email and can look at it on their own time.

These threads just open up doors and it is the people in them that can go through whatever door they want, it isn't up to me or you.


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## Padgett

I really do use the leave a hinge alone method, so how do I do that? I do it with my secondary hinge that is my slower one, I very rarely ever change it and it is set a good amount slower than my competition hinge. I use it to work on lengthening or keeping my firing engine nice and longer than needed. My competition hinge fires well within my firing engines abilities to create smooth rotation in the hinge and I have found that if I don't shoot with a slow hinge that my firing engine will shrink and become just barely able to fire my competition hinge and that is a bad thing. 

Now the only time I ever change my slow hinge is when I have made a draw length change and it isn't firing at all and to fire it I have to exert extra little things such as finger manipulation or something similar to fire it, that is when I might have to either slow it down or speed it up a little depending on a draw length change. Other than that my slow hinge basically goes untouched.


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## SonnyThomas

"Set it and forget it" camps do exist. field14, my coach from several years back and several more. The jest of the matter is, you had the hinge firing well for you and then it isn't firing well for you. The hinge didn't change, you did. So it's "get you back in the game."

I am not a lover of moons. I got spoiled with the Stans and perhaps got a case of tinkeritis. The dang moons never moved like I wanted them to. The Stans take just a allen wrench and slightest of tweaks to give a colder or hotter firing.


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## LMacD

It bothers me when people call my backstop a bale. There's no hay in it. From now on, I'm blind foaming.


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## ron w

as I've said,... leave it alone, WHILE YOU ARE LEARNING THE ENGINE........ is that so hard to comprehend ?. there's really nothing very complicated about grasping that statement, and it doesn't have more than one meaning, or suggestion. again, while you are learning the engine , you have no preconception or preference to the setting, changing it at this time, will only defeat what has been learned and developed, already. to tell people to change the setting while they are learning , is to say that there is no relatively standard setting that will work for the majority of people. ...to say that, is to say that the manufacturers of these hinges that off moons is a couple different shelf depths, have no idea and did no research to arrive at a shelf depth , that comes with their hinges, when all of the manufacturers have adopted the .006", or .004" click, as the "standard depth click and suggest that .006" depth on a smooth moon, is a decent place to start. do you think they just picked those numbers out of the clear blue sky, because they sounded good ?.
"set it and forget" has another entirely different context,... "set it and forget",.... means to set the release not think about how it's set while you are shooting because thinking about that, is distracting to the process at hand. don't set the release and then start constantly fiddling with the adjustment, shoot it for a decent while and give it a chance to tell you of it is right for your process.
I find it difficult to understand, how someone who boasts about being a teacher of hinge release use, doesn't grasp these simple concepts and understand or realize the existence of the reason they have become the industry standards, suggested by virtually all hinge manufacturers. they don't just print that stuff to use up ink and paper...... maybe you know more about using a hinge than the manufacturers of hinges do, I don't know, but I doubt it......I do know I certainly don't and wouldn't contend to, either.


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## Mahly

I disagree. without going to extremes, if it's set too fast or too slow, it can/will effect the metal state of the shooter. Once that shooter starts becoming comfortable with the engine, they then may be distracted with how long the short is taking (short or long). A minor adjustment would be fine, and is different than constantly fiddling with the adjustment.
Once the shot engine has been learned, moving the 1/2 moon to require less rotation will get the shot off FASTER than moving it the other way.
These ideas and/or facts that you put forward are clearly not universal. They work well with your system and thats just dandy. 
Others have different rules for their system/s and they work just as well for them.

Let's avoid telling others how their systems are wrong, and challenging the intellect of others. Just because they use different techniques, doesn't mean they, or you, are wrong.
Focus on telling what works for you, and don't worry about correcting others who have a different system.


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## ron w

"a decent engagement setting" , is neither too fast, nor too slow", is it not ?. ...what's you definition of "decent" ?.. I swear,..... people just can't seem to read the words I post.


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## StraightShot203

The biggest thing is, there is no miracal fix when it comes to anything for archery. I dont care if you have the best stuff money can buy... The only way its going to make you better, is by sticking with it. Setting it and forgetting it. 
For instance, when you choose to make that change over to a hinge, you most likely will shoot worse than you currently are at first. But then you just stick with it, and adapt. Once you get use to the release, how hot or cold it is, then you will see you skill level surpass the level you were at before the switch and so on.


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## jelmore

I completely agree with this. Just like in golf when you make a change you have to be willing to get worse before you get better. For example, 3 weeks after starting with a hinge I went to a indoor 3d shoot. I was not worried at all about score just making a strong shot with no flinches. I made 30 shots without a flinch and felt on top of the world about the shoot even though I think I averaged a 8.


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## SonnyThomas

LMacD said:


> It bothers me when people call my backstop a bale. There's no hay in it. From now on, I'm blind foaming.


  I know you're funnin', but there's bailing water, jumping bail, but bail is spelled differently. A bale is any matter formed in other than it's former state. You bale hay. Hay is loose before baling. Newspaper, plastic wrap, plastic bottles, aluminum cans, they are all put in bale form. Long, long time ago in another galaxy...Well, in the twilight zone (48 years ago), I baled wire and fence at Keystone Steel and Wire Company. Yep, machine drew the wire and fence in and when complete out came a round bale weighing something of over 1000 pounds.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> "Set it and forget it" camps do exist. field14, my coach from several years back and several more. The jest of the matter is, you had the hinge firing well for you and then it isn't firing well for you. The hinge didn't change, you did. So it's "get you back in the game."
> 
> I am not a lover of moons. I got spoiled with the Stans and perhaps got a case of tinkeritis. The dang moons never moved like I wanted them to. The Stans take just a allen wrench and slightest of tweaks to give a colder or hotter firing.





StraightShot203 said:


> The biggest thing is, there is no miracal fix when it comes to anything for archery. I dont care if you have the best stuff money can buy... The only way its going to make you better, is by sticking with it. Setting it and forgetting it. For instance, when you choose to make that change over to a hinge, you most likely will shoot worse than you currently are at first. But then you just stick with it, and adapt. Once you get use to the release, how hot or cold it is, then you will see you skill level surpass the level you were at before the switch and so on.





jelmore said:


> I completely agree with this. Just like in golf when you make a change you have to be willing to get worse before you get better. For example, 3 weeks after starting with a hinge I went to a indoor 3d shoot. I was not worried at all about score just making a strong shot with no flinches. I made 30 shots without a flinch and felt on top of the world about the shoot even though I think I averaged a 8.


Okay, there is setting and forget it, but then you get on top of a hinge, have it learned, there is adjusting it to a setting where it covers the bases well. So it's set decent and; I've never heard of someone wanting a quicker, faster, or hotter setting. I've heard of wanting one colder/slower to re-enforce one's executions or firing engine or whatever you want to call getting the shot off. And it was hearsay, that said by person other than the one who switched releases. Now, was it to re-enforce one's manner? Read on....
So you get up and you're full of...better not say that...You full of energy, too much energy and the release is firing too fast. Option, slow down or make the hinge colder. Now, was the hearsay/rumor wrong? Maybe his primary release was going off too fast?

It was Doug Springer and paper work with my MagMicro Trio that gave of the same thing, full of pep and vinegar one day and struggling to fire the release the next day and why the advent of Stan's micro adjustment of the sear of their hinges. I can't gage the movement of a moon to save my life, but I can "gage" a 1/8 or 1/4 turn of a allen wrench or just or turn the allen wrench enough to say I moved it maybe a 1/16 turn or something close to it.


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## StraightShot203

For some odd reason, im very confused by what you just posted sonnythomas. Im not sure if im the only one, but things were understandable for the most part up until that post.
And yes, i know many people that want to set there hinge hotter, its the ones that are out there every day shooting and have there $h!t together for the most part. To cold of a release will have you anticipating the shot no questions asked.


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## LMacD

SonnyThomas said:


> I know you're funnin'...I baled wire and fence at Keystone Steel and Wire Company. Yep, machine drew the wire and fence in and when complete out came a round bale weighing something of over 1000 pounds.


That's quite neat re. the wire/fence bale. I didn't know such a thing existed. And yes, just funnin' 

On topic: absolutely agreed regarding the adjustability of a Stan. In fact, Padgett's hinge setup routine was an absolute snap to do with my Stan.


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## ron w

Padgett said:


> Umm, if you run your wonderful well developed execution with your hinge and nothing happens and you are standing there and the hinge isn't firing over and over at some time you have to do something.
> 
> If you leave the hinge alone and don't change the moon setting then you must change your grip or execution or you will continue to just stand there. That is exactly what you are referring to when you mentioned learning the engine. For most people this could be a few weeks or months to become proficient at that engine and that is a long time to wait to make any moon changes.


 a well developed execution, doesn't stall, unless you tell it to stall. setting the release to "decent setting" is why this is done,....so that we don't have to fool around with the setting, while we are learning and teaching the execution to run reliably to it's goal, without distraction.
when you leave your hinge setting alone, your execution learns to run until the goal is accomplished reliably, without stalling,....exactly what a well developed execution is supposed to do and the reason we develop it, to that point, with a decent setting that is neither too shallow or too deep and with the various drills that are designed to do exactly that. that's what a reliably running execution is all about.
<edited> unneeded insults


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## SonnyThomas

StraightShot203 said:


> For some odd reason, im very confused by what you just posted sonnythomas. Im not sure if im the only one, but things were understandable for the most part up until that post.
> And yes, i know many people that want to set there hinge hotter, its the ones that are out there every day shooting and have there $h!t together for the most part. To cold of a release will have you anticipating the shot no questions asked.


A rumor, hearsay, posted hear on AT told of a Pro shooter switching releases on the line in a event. Said he went from his primary release to a release that made him work harder. I gave the other side of the story, his primary release perhaps too fast and he switched to one colder.

As for the Stan commit, allen wrench at hand I can tweak my Stans in a heart beat, make them colder or make them hotter faster in mere seconds. Time frame; 2 1/2 for 3 arrows, 4 minutes for 5 arrows is a piece of cake. Try 4 arrows in 2 minutes, the slowest, and 1 minute, the fastest end, in the timed ASA DAIR Indoor event. I've never failed to clean the 1 minute end. DT using a hinge in his first ever DAIR cleaned the 1 minute end, twice (once on the bottom line and once on the top line).


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## erdman41

It wasn't hearsay it was in a video of the pro (Dan McCarthy I think) telling the story himself. I think the first Scott Seminar with him and Levi.


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## StraightShot203

SonnyThomas said:


> A rumor, hearsay, posted hear on AT told of a Pro shooter switching releases on the line in a event. Said he went from his primary release to a release that made him work harder. I gave the other side of the story, his primary release perhaps too fast and he switched to one colder.



I gotcha now.
As for the stan comment i got that for sure. I shoot a stan hinge as my go to, and i love that thing like my child. Its just hands down easier / better imo than a half moon. You can take and set up 6 stan moreX hinge releases the EXACT same way for sure, just by counting turns or using a caliper to measure the gap. I dont think you could do that / be that precise with a half moon.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> Umm, if you run your wonderful well developed execution with your hinge and nothing happens and you are standing there and the hinge isn't firing over and over at some time you have to do something.
> 
> If you leave the hinge alone and don't change the moon setting then you must change your grip or execution or you will continue to just stand there. That is exactly what you are referring to when you mentioned learning the engine. For most people this could be a few weeks or months to become proficient at that engine and that is a long time to wait to make any moon changes.


I'm on the take differently. Learning is one thing. Afterwards, setting the release to a decent setting, one covering the bases, is another. Mike Flier tried all my hinges, made note of how the felt for him (too quick, too slow) and I offered my allen wrenches to adjust them as he wished. He declined. He pounded the X ring at 20 yards and then went the Field range and, according to his brother, pounded the 45 and 60 yard targets with all my hinges, hot and cold.
I was somewhat amazed he wanted the no longer made Stan Deuce that was set too hot. Okay, the man knows what he's doing and made the releases work for him. Of all my hinges, 5 of them, we only agreed on the Stan Blackjack being set perfect. Only that the Blackjack felt a tad too small I let it go...


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> It wasn't hearsay it was in a video of the pro (Dan McCarthy I think) telling the story himself. I think the first Scott Seminar with him and Levi.


There was no mention of a video, just the post.


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## SonnyThomas

"Covering the bases, release set decent." Shooting on flat ground is one thing, shooting up or down hill is another. Yes, more of a learning experience, but still different.


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## Padgett

I am totally in agreement Sonny, once you become a real hinge shooter you can pick up a hinge in basically any setting and shoot just fine and of course you are going to have a preferred setup that you shoot with your personal competition hinge. I get that and can shoot with any hinge setting click or smooth also just not at a pro level.

For a new hinge shooter though giving him some kind of direction to how a hinge should feel in their hand and how much rotation he should have and how to actually get that setting to me is the key to a new shooter not suffering. That is why I instruct a new shooter to set the hinge to where it can't physically fire no matter how much you rotate it by turning the moon so far that it can't. Then I ask them to spend a while just drawing the bow with a perfect grip where they don't have to worry about accidentally firing the hinge because it can't and they can with no fear just enjoy the hinge with all their fingers equally. Then once they do that portion they start speeding up the hinge over and over and sooner or later they find that speed setting where they are up and running. Basically they found the limit and being the first day it is a rough limit that over the next few weeks needs to be changed a time or two and finding the position of the moon that compliments their learning curve instead of hampering it.


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## Padgett

I shot with a guy early this summer that had his hinge set to where the head was bottomed out and the moon was so tight to the bottomed out setting that it couldn't have been more than a few thousandths from firing once it left the bottomed out spot, he basically drew the bow with his thumb and index finger only and some how or another he could do it without the middle finger or ring finger being on the hinge at all which was a miracle. We talked during the round and he mentioned that nobody else could shoot his hinge the way he set it up and I asked him if I could and holy crap it was scary but I did it and drawing without my ring and middle finger of the hinge was weird to say the least and then just barely wrapping them around the hinge fired the dang thing with no further effort. That guy actually contacted me and got my articles and I haven't heard from him but my suggestion to him was to take one of his other secondary hinges and just do the hinge setup routine with one of them that he wasn't using very much and just see what it offered to his shooting.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> I shot with a guy early this summer that had his hinge set to where the head was bottomed out and the moon was so tight to the bottomed out setting that it couldn't have been more than a few thousandths from firing once it left the bottomed out spot, he basically drew the bow with his thumb and index finger only and some how or another he could do it without the middle finger or ring finger being on the hinge at all which was a miracle. We talked during the round and he mentioned that nobody else could shoot his hinge the way he set it up and I asked him if I could and holy crap it was scary but I did it and drawing without my ring and middle finger of the hinge was weird to say the least and then just barely wrapping them around the hinge fired the dang thing with no further effort. That guy actually contacted me and got my articles and I haven't heard from him but my suggestion to him was to take one of his other secondary hinges and just do the hinge setup routine with one of them that he wasn't using very much and just see what it offered to his shooting.


Been there, done that if I read or interpret you correctly. I couldn't get things going with my hinge. I was pulling myself in half before the hinge fired. I then set it hotter and hotter until just releasing the thumb post it would fire. Yep, had to be on target when I released the thumb post. I then slowed it down a bit and waiting it out the release it would fire if as on it's own. This had to be before I got one of your write ups, 2009 or 2010 maybe. It was with the Deuce I set it so it would go off on it's own and that I used a hinge in 5 spot in competition. I shot a 299 and good amount of Xs. After reading your write up I cooled the Deuce a tad more where back tension did fire it. If need be, pulling with the middle finger will quicken things  It hasn't been changed since. So 4 or 5 years with the same setting. All that try the Deuce and adhere to my instructions are flat amazed. No one has busted their mouths and most can't believe their arrow finds the X ring so repeatedly or repeats point of impact time and time again.


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## ron w

a lot of guys like to set the angle up like that. it gets the outside of the hand forward, with the though that it helps with rotation. I suppose it might make the outside fingers contribute more if you use an engine that just pulls straight back, as you relax your index finger.


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## Padgett

What amazes me is how simple the process is if you have it available to you either with a local friend or coach or a write up, but if you are on your own the fear associated with the hinge firing accidentally totally wipes out any and all chances of a guy not suffering. Then you end up grandfathering in those little tricks into your shooting until you stumble onto the guy or coach or thread on archery talk that opens that door.


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## SonnyThomas

I have a library full of hinge instructions and it took all to figure out the hinge....Might have it figured out, but still go to a thumb for competition


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## ron w

everybody is different,....I go to my hinge whenever I need to get shots off that are as good as I can make them. to be honest, other than a few days in recent years, using a thumb trigger for hunting, just to see if I wanted to change my hunting release, when the going gets rough, and the shots get harder, I prefer to use my hinge. I am by far, most comfortable shooting with a hinge, in all respects and shooting conditions.


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## Mahly

Padgett said:


> What amazes me is how simple the process is if you have it available to you either with a local friend or coach or a write up, but if you are on your own the fear associated with the hinge firing accidentally totally wipes out any and all chances of a guy not suffering. Then you end up grandfathering in those little tricks into your shooting until you stumble onto the guy or coach or thread on archery talk that opens that door.


This is the exact boat I was in when I first learned a hinge.....and a good part of the reason that I switched to a thumb trigger when my hinge broke.
This also describes some of the issues I had when I went back to a hinge.

Padgett's articles and PMs made things MUCH easier, wish I had seen them a decade sooner.


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## Padgett

What sucks is all of the information in those articles was learned right here and it already existed in the threads, from time to time a guy will try and throw one in my face from way back and I always give all credit to archery talk. All I have done is put what I have learned and enjoy doing in my own terms and give it right back to new or intermediate shooters who may have never seen it all put together into one set of articles.

I know it gets frustrating to us regular guys here on this forum to have some of the simple start up things mentioned but the thing to remember is there are tons of new shooters or lurkers that read these threads looking for something to get them started and these guys normally don't post. They usually pm me with a request for the articles during our discussions and we never hear from them in the thread, usually I hear from them again a few months later where they touch base with me in another thread. 

I am still learning and getting better at my personal shooting and my approach to reaching people, my wife gets her first paycheck since january today so in a few weeks or a month or so I hope to get my website back up and running so I can stop having to email people with all the 54 pages of articles. The website worked so much better and I actually have some ideas to improve it and add a whole new section of stuff.


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## Tecate3

Padgett said:


> What sucks is all of the information in those articles was learned right here and it already existed in the threads, from time to time a guy will try and throw one in my face from way back and I always give all credit to archery talk. All I have done is put what I have learned and enjoy doing in my own terms and give it right back to new or intermediate shooters who may have never seen it all put together into one set of articles.
> 
> I know it gets frustrating to us regular guys here on this forum to have some of the simple start up things mentioned but the thing to remember is there are tons of new shooters or lurkers that read these threads looking for something to get them started and these guys normally don't post. They usually pm me with a request for the articles during our discussions and we never hear from them in the thread, usually I hear from them again a few months later where they touch base with me in another thread.
> 
> I am still learning and getting better at my personal shooting and my approach to reaching people, my wife gets her first paycheck since january today so in a few weeks or a month or so I hope to get my website back up and running so I can stop having to email people with all the 54 pages of articles. The website worked so much better and I actually have some ideas to improve it and add a whole new section of stuff.


Lurker, Appreciative Newbie/rookie checking in here. Been shooting for 6 months
Reading, absorbing, learning as much as I can.....

Conquest 4 w-max cam, Axcel AX3000, Spot Hogg Infinity, 4x scope, Doinker Fatty 33 & 15", Little Goose, etc, etc.

Curtis.


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## Padgett

Awesome, I think that I remember you sending me a pm a while back from your user name. I would love for you to either give me a pm or a post here on how you use this forum as a guy that has been watching and reading it but not posting in it. 

It is really hard for me to find ways to reach people and still function in this kind of forum negotiating around between staying on topic and also sticking in a few little feeler comments that may spark interest in a guy that is just watching the thread.


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## SonnyThomas

Mahly said:


> This is the exact boat I was in when I first learned a hinge.....and a good part of the reason that I switched to a thumb trigger when my hinge broke.
> This also describes some of the issues I had when I went back to a hinge.
> 
> Padgett's articles and PMs made things MUCH easier, wish I had seen them a decade sooner.


With all I have of hinges, including Padgett's write up, and one-on-one with Doug Springer for almost a hour, burning my brain with John Dudley's hinge articles and it took weeks, months to start putting things together. Where something didn't work I went back to another article or more. It was a blend of all that made things better. Doug led the way, John gave confidence, Padgett gave more on holding the release and then a change of hinge to understand what the heck was going on. Went back to John's articles and then Padgett's filled in a hole and I used a hinge the first time ever in competition. 
One sentence, heck, one word can make a difference in understanding. I'm almost fearless in trying a different hinge, more of excepting a wild experience. Chris handed me his new 4 finger TRU Ball Gold and no problem. Chris was still searching for the magic hinge and came up with a Whalen Hooker. That was a wild experience. Way too large for me, but I got it to go and was amazed.


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## ron w

the thing about using a hinge, is that as far as releases go, they can't really get more basic or fundamental, than how a hinge works and how to use it. sometimes, to some people, it's so basic and simple that they caught up over-complicating the process and scare themselves right out of trying one.


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## LMacD

Daily lurker and occasional poster right here too. My first weeks with a hinge last fall were a complete gong-show. I came *this close* to selling it. I knew what it was about, like ronw says, it's really very simple mechanically, but I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing with it: hand activate, back activate, both, something else??? So I'd get to full draw, half expect it to fire unintentionally, and shake like a leaf squeezing, pulling, holding, thinking "o...k... this is supposed to be better than my trigger? Really??" 

Well, thanks to what I've read on AT - mostly from Padgett, credit due, but a little elsewhere too like Griv's "thing a week" videos - I can now *easily* outshoot my old trigger, something I'd used to win two tournaments in 2001 [I had a 13 year layoff from archery after that - long story]. Best of all, I'm free of the target panic that led me to buy my Stan after I got back into shooting in 2014 and noticed that I was punching like a prize fighter. It took *a lot* of work - so many hours at the blank bale that I started to actually like it  - but was worth every arrow. 

Next up is Griv's progressive 300 games thingie where you start from 10 yards and work back. Winter project


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## Padgett

I'm with you on the Griv stuff, I used his posts here and his videos on youtube back when I was struggling and they helped open doors for me also to what was available out there.


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