# Bow Fights: Martin Bamboo Viper vs. Tomahawk SS



## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Crickets chirping...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

thorwulfx..after seeing what some of the smaller but great bowyers are putting out i've sworn off any large corporate production bows...the little guys are just putting out way more for way less..for instance..my bushmen longbow puts my bob lee to shame..





































and if i cant win ya over on bushmen?..my 2nd choice (which i very well may get one soon as well) would be one of those oh so fine 2pc TD BamaBow Longbows...just saying...venom, viper, tomohawk..there's a slew of'em..but for that kinda ca$h?..you can get twice the bow and live original instead of dying a copy...just my 2cts.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

thorwulfx said:


> Crickets chirping...


okay?...x's2?


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Jinkster,

Thanks. I'll look into both bow companies you suggested. I'm not dead set on a particular bow, I just know that I went, "Ohhh," whenever I looked at the bows mentioned in the title.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

thorwulfx said:


> Jinkster,
> 
> Thanks. I'll look into both bow companies you suggested. I'm not dead set on a particular bow, I just know that I went, "Ohhh," whenever I looked at the bows mentioned in the title.


my lame pix doesnt do that bow justice...i'll go take a look at these corporate flagships you're mentioning.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

okay..just looked at the bamboo viper...$735 and not even close..you get bubinga and bamboo..my american native is made of bubinga, bocate,stabilized burl olive, zebrawood and bamboo (and that doesnt include the phenolic stringers) for $725 with zulu nock & hand woven stringer and bow sock with a handmade leather/polished antler string keeper and bowyer made astroflight flemish string...and?..an inch-by-inch DW scorecard showing the bow gains almost exactly 2lbs per inch from 23"s out too 30"s.

see what i mean vern?...martins making a bundle pushing their stix to the newbs and greenys...patronized your local little guy and get way more effort, craftsmenship, materials and heart & soul for your money...thad be my advice.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Just looked at Bama Bows...they appear to give a lot of bow for the money. I will admit that my good experience with my Super D has some impact upon how I feel about DH (Martin) bows, because I cannot shoot that thing with out grinning like a fool. That said, the Damon Howatt base is already covered...

The tomahawk bows get crazy good ratings, but they are spendy, and it appears that there are a lot of other bow companies out there that offer more "custom" options for less. I'm off to see if I can find a website for Bushmens now...


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

thorwulfx said:


> I'm looking at getting a premium ref/def longbow in the spring, and I wondered if anyone in the forum has experience with one or both of these bows. I have read up on both of them, and they both get great reviews. I'd be getting the 64" Tomahawk, so both bows are similar in build and of the same length.
> 
> I'm open to other options, such as the Martin Venom or any other ref/def high performance longbow that goes for 700-900 bucks. Thanks in advance for your input.


 I've the Viper. Here is my take on it... It is a great shooter and I'm shooting 700 grain arrows mostly and it with those heavy arrows is very sweet. Its not as smooth as my Nova is, but dang near. The Nova almost feels weak its so smooth, but the Viper is close. Where the Nova has little to NO shock... (interpretation here... and bias... ) and the Viper does have some.. but I've not got it "tuned" either. I've not really spent the time I have with the others to really get it down to as close to a sweet spot as I could. It doesn't have a deep shelf, so you can play with spine and brace heights like your sposed to... :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> okay..just looked at the bamboo viper...$735 and not even close..you get bubinga and bamboo..my american native is made of bubinga, bocate,stabilized burl olive, zebrawood and bamboo (and that doesnt include the phenolic stringers) for $725 with zulu nock & hand woven stringer and bow sock with a handmade leather/polished antler string keeper and bowyer made astroflight flemish string...and?..an inch-by-inch DW scorecard showing the bow gains almost exactly 2lbs per inch from 23"s out too 30"s.
> 
> see what i mean vern?...martins making a bundle pushing their stix to the newbs and greenys...patronized your local little guy and get way more effort, craftsmenship, materials and heart & soul for your money...thad be my advice.


 You can get a Viper for much less than $700, one, and two, I wouldn't be disparaging Martin like that in any shape or form. They've treated me handsomely.... so bias here, but I was a royal pain in the ass for them too...during the course and they took care of me through all of it.

Other than that, one should buy what is appealing, handles well, and is affordable.

Aloha.. :beer:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> You can get a Viper for much less than $700, one, and two, I wouldn't be disparaging Martin like that in any shape or form. They've treated me handsomely.... so bias here, but I was a royal pain in the ass for them too...during the course and they took care of me through all of it.
> 
> Other than that, one should buy what is appealing, handles well, and is affordable.
> 
> Aloha.. :beer:


Okay...glad you're happy with your martins...but they make a handfull of cookie cutter trad bows that all look the same where for the same pricepoint you could get something really special and unique from the guys that cant afford commercials or their name in lights..that's just been my experience..i usta defend my Bob Lee much like you do your martins..but after seeing what the cottage level guys are breaking their kahoonies to put out?..i'll only ever own (1) Bob Lee.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Okay...glad you're happy with your martins...but they make a handfull of cookie cutter trad bows that all look the same where for the same pricepoint you could get something really special and unique from the guys that cant afford commercials or their name in lights..that's just been my experience..i usta defend my Bob Lee much like you do your martins..but after seeing what the cottage level guys are breaking their kahoonies to put out?..i'll only ever own (1) Bob Lee.


I'm not defending anything. I don't care what anyone buys as long as they are happy with it. My Nova, for example, a true custom bow... and if it broke, how soon do you think I'd get another one? What if you broke more than one? How many would with grins on the outside, would replace it no strings... by almost return mail? Martin for me has been the best of all companies to deal with. Companies usually change with time... most not living up to their original delivery.. Those that have been able to maintain that level of service don't deserve to be trashed.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

with that price range you can pretty much order any custom bow out there. look into jk traditions kanati longbow, its suppose to be an amazing shooter. look at hunter bows as well. i love mine.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Rattus, 

Thanks for your input on the Bamboo Viper. I had read a lot of good things about it. With those 700 grain arrows, what draw weight/length are you pulling, if you don't mind? Have you chrono'd it? Finally, I haven't seen a <<new>> bow of this model for anything less than @719, so if you have a secret, awesome source, I'd love to be clued in. 

Jinkster, 

I love the idea of a totally custom bow. On the other hand, classic designs have a powerful draw for me, as well. If the modern Martins are built like the vintage DH I was so lucky to snap up, I would find it difficult to say they were overpriced. Sure, not as fancy as some designs, but you can't argue with a bow that 30+ years old and still shoots so sweet. Perhaps the answer is to always snap up the big brand bows used, and then buy the "cottage" bows new. I'm just gathering data, and you've sure given me some things to consider.

Sawtooth,

...pretty much any custom...as you say. The recurve that makes my heart pound and keeps me up nights, though, is a Blacktail, and those hit you right in the wallet (not to mention having about a year and a half waiting list). Luckily, we're talking longbows here. I'll sure look at the two companies you suggested.

Anyone have input on the Tomahawk bows?


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## Festivus (Oct 9, 2009)

Used Martin Viper. 

New Martins are a rip. Still a Martin fan though.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

thorwulfx said:


> Rattus,
> 
> Thanks for your input on the Bamboo Viper. I had read a lot of good things about it. With those 700 grain arrows, what draw weight/length are you pulling, if you don't mind? Have you chrono'd it? Finally, I haven't seen a <<new>> bow of this model for anything less than @719, so if you have a secret, awesome source, I'd love to be clued in.


My drawlength is 31 and the bow is 65# I need to chronograph my bows again for two reasons. One is I'm now shooting new arrows and two, my chronograph has been suspected of doing me wrong... so I want to test it against another and then re-chronograph all of my bows with bow specific arrows. Give me a couple of weeks to do this and I'll post it all for you.

Aloha.. :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Festivus said:


> Used Martin Viper.
> 
> New Martins are a rip. Still a Martin fan though.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Martin-Veno...760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6e070438

As an example.... :grin:


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## Caughtandhobble (Dec 20, 2011)

Hi,

I am new here and really enjoying the site, I just wanted to throw it my 2 cents. I 100% agree with Jinkster, give the custom bow makers a shot. Out of the two that I know here in Texas, I can guarantee you that a broken bow will not be a problem. Check out the Texas boys sarrelsarchery.com and hornesarchery.com. If I may suggest one more thing check the grip style out on the bow you choose, if you go with the mass production bow I don't think you'll have many options. Good luck with your search, you're doing the right thing by asking around. Take care...


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

jeffrey archery in south carolina is worth a look I have one of their lonhunters and its real nice and held up well for 25 years


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

My bow design closely resembles the Viper and the Tomohawks, and there are plenty of bowyers out there building similiar styled bows too (because it's not only a great performer but also one of the most builder friendly styles out there). The truth is, most will shoot very much like the others, and in the end it's a matter of what the bowyer offers in price, service, warranty, and aesthetics. I like to keep mine simple and cost effective, but will be working on a step-up version after the new year with snake skins standard, more attractive grip options, and a life time warranty. Running through the numbers it would still cost me less to produce than either manufacturer- and many small scale bowyers can offer the same, or better. Shop around. Bama bows have a big following, and there are lots more hybrid longbows available. If all you're looking for is a high performance longbow with nice curves... you have a lot to choose from


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

I have a Tomahawk Diamond SS and love it. Ran into a fellow who shoots a special 66" Martin Viper at the local range yesterday and after he shot my Tomahawk his immediate response was " I can't believe how nice that thing throws an arrow." I have shot his Viper before and honestly like it too! His Viper has a little more of a pistol grip and my Tomahawk more traditional with a slight locator grip. I could live with either one. I would definitely get out and shoot different ones. I have read nothing but outstanding reports on the Bama bows. Shoot what you like and like what you shoot, it's all fun so have fun taking your time shooting several.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Toelke Whip

The Whip will perform as well if not better than both and hands down made by a master craftsman. I have owned and shot the Tomahawk and there was noticeable vibration in the shot compared to my Classic Whip and D Bow.

The Grip on the Whips has a great thumb rest that makes for a natural grip. If you don't like a thumb rest he makes the Classic Whip which is the same bow without a thumb rest. For my opinion it worth your effort to call Dan. He is a great guy to talk to and he doesn't rush you off the phone.

www.montanabows.com


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## slade (Feb 21, 2003)

There's a used Viper on trad talk fro under $400.00. I own a Venom, it's light, no stack and flat out flings an arrow.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Caught,

I looked at those two companies, and again, very nice bows. Thanks for the info.

Bobman, 

Copy that on Jeffery Archery. Thanks.

Kegan,

I've looked at your Omega bows. They look really nice. You're certainly on my radar. Your prices are very affordable for the products that I have seen, and your recent video indicated that they're shooters. Thanks.

Bilbowbone,

Thanks for your info on the SS. I got the impression that the Viper and the SS were fairly competitive. I'm sure the bulk of the shooters would be pleased to own either one. If I get the urge for a HEAVY bow, Bama bows looks to have the heaviest modern longbows around.

Thanks, all. Lots of good food for thought.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Longstick,

Those Toelke bows look fine. Thanks!

Slade,

The Venom appears to be one of the better deals that Martin offers right now. It seems to have all the speed of the Viper, but is quite a bit cheaper. The length is also, to me, a plus, as I shoot a 68" lb right now, and quite like it (though it's not even in the ball park with the high-class bows that are being discussed here.)


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## bigtone1411 (Nov 3, 2011)

I have never seen or shot one, but I am real interested in a Great Northern Long Bow. Specifically, the Critter Gitter. They make them in a lot of different woods and Take Down is an option as well. I have read a lot of great reviews on these bows. They would be in the same price range also.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

thorwulfx said:


> Longstick,
> 
> Those Toelke bows look fine. Thanks!
> 
> ...


Yeah..but dude..what do you get?..died birch & bamboo with black glass limbs...and looks just like the other 99,999 of'em that they made..bushmen, bamabows, tolke...they are built like each and every bow has a soul of it's own...unique...special..works of art that the bowyers who built them went above and beyond...building each one like they were building it for themself..and not to bolster a corporate bottom line or brag about the cost cutting measures they took to increase profit margins..i know this..after seeing steve jewetts display of his bushmen longbows at the local pro shop?..as well as the extra effort and craftsmenshiop that goes into others like bamabows and montana bows?..i aint buying NAME brands anymore..i mean just look...you think the big boys would make ya something like this for $1,450?...cause i paid half that for..

stabilzed burl olive tips that look like swirled jade & torquiose?..










check out the hand woven beaded stringer and the draw weight scorecard...gaining almost exactly 2lbs per inch...










or how about the stiched leather hand made "Tip Protector/String Keeper" complete with polished antler buttons?...










and what are you going to get?...dyed birch and bamboo? LOL!...with 99,999 other guys swearing you got one he11uva bow cause they got one too?..LOL!

I'm sorry thorwulfx...but you've been extremely kind and helpful to me here...which is why i'm talking to you like an older azzhole brother who loves you enough to NOT wanna watch you cut yourself short...but to each their own..and if raising my 3 daughters taught me nothing else?..they taught me tht sometimes ya just gotta stand back and let folks learn the hard way from their own mistakes...so..that's all and the best i got on this side of the "step out of the corporate box when it comes to buying bows" debate.

Good luck deciding bro..and best of luck with whatever you choose.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

www.bigfootbows.com


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

That has to be the funniest thing I've heard, that buying a Toelke is a mistake, Come On Jinkster, If you ever had a Toelke in your hands you will understand the quality of the bow and most of all the expert craftsman Dan is.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

LongStick64 said:


> That has to be the funniest thing I've heard, that buying a Toelke is a mistake, Come On Jinkster, If you ever had a Toelke in your hands you will understand the quality of the bow and most of all the expert craftsman Dan is.


wth are you talking about?..i'm telling him that bushmen, bamabows and montana bows rock as compared to the big boys cookie cutter versions...montana is tolke.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Sorry pal I read you wrong, thought you meant it the other way. I stand corrected and apologise.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Jinkster, 

Easy there, pard. I didn't say I was going to buy a Venom. In fact, I'm not a big fan of the dyed birch riser. The $230 Sequoia I already have is way prettier, in my opinion. All the various implementations of green, gray, red tinted plywood sort of leave me cold. I'd rather have simple hard maple or oak than that. I haven't made a decision in any direction, though I have a much better collection of data than I had a few days ago. There are several bow companies that I've looked at that I had not even considered, and that was one of my primary goals for this thread. I hope that a few other people have been likewise educated.

I will admit to being a bit skewed towards classic wood choices and somewhat simple looks for a longbow. Because they are so thin and lithe, I think that you can overwhelm that simple shape with too many layers of lamination. The reason I'm looking for another longbow is primarily for improved shooting dynamics. I like my PSE bows, but they're sort of pokey in terms of energy transmitted to the arrow. I'd like the following things in my next bow:

1) A modern, fully reflex/deflex design that stores a lot of energy
2) Fast flight capability
3) Less hand shock
4) At least 64"
5) Smooth draw out to 30"+
6) Better forgiveness of my many flaws as an archer (okay, that's asking a lot)

The level of prettiness is somewhere below that on the list. If it's fast enough, smooth enough, and accurate enough, even a goofy looking bow can get a lot of love, I think. Not that it's easy to mess up the general line of a long bow...

I totally agree that some bows are fairly plain-jane for their price tags. If I can get a bow that shoots as well or better for less, and help support a small businessman in the process, I would call that a win, provided that the wait time wasn't too absurd, and I felt that the craftsman came well recommended. It appears that I have found a few worthy options along those lines. I'm going to let things percolate for a while, and probably revisit the question come February.

Thanks for all your passion on the subject. It is appreciated.

Thanks for all the great recommends, all.


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## xm15e2m4 (Aug 3, 2008)

Well I guess I better stir the pot a little too. 

Go buy yourself a Super Shrew with the specs you want (they make em short or long). They show up in the classifieds every once and a while. One of the best one piece R/D longbows under $1000 in my opinion. One of my shooting buddies is amazed at how much more smooth and pointable my shrew is over any of his three Widows.

Theres a trad forum you might want to look into for info on top shelf bowyers they are strictly a TRAD type GANG with a DOTCOM (hint hint)


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

pirates of archery dot com is another place where bowyers hang out... good place to see what they are building.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

thorwulfx said:


> Jinkster,
> 
> Easy there, pard. I didn't say I was going to buy a Venom. In fact, I'm not a big fan of the dyed birch riser. The $230 Sequoia I already have is way prettier, in my opinion. All the various implementations of green, gray, red tinted plywood sort of leave me cold. I'd rather have simple hard maple or oak than that. I haven't made a decision in any direction, though I have a much better collection of data than I had a few days ago. There are several bow companies that I've looked at that I had not even considered, and that was one of my primary goals for this thread. I hope that a few other people have been likewise educated.
> 
> ...


Martin uses dyed risers on the Venom? I thought my Viper was Bubinga?... Oh well.... I thought they were similar...


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

XM, 

Looked at the Shrew bows. They seem to top out at 60", which is a little shorter than I was looking for. At that length, I'd probably rather have a recurve.

Rsarns,

Good to know.

Rattus, 

The Viper is Bubinga, and I believe you can order a custom Venom with different wood, but the stock one is a dyed laminate. I think that's the reasoning behind the price differential, as they are otherwise similar bows, with the Venom just being a few inches longer.


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## Martin Archery (Sep 24, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Yeah..but dude..what do you get?..died birch & bamboo with black glass limbs...and looks just like the other 99,999 of'em that they made


Actually what you get is a solid Bubinga riser with Maple accent, Bamboo and Carbon Fiber. These bows are hardly mass produced. Maybe you should tell the only 4 guys we trust to shape each handle by hand that they are making "cookie cutter" bows. We don't use CNC machines like other companies do. Between the 4 of them they have a combined 156 years making bows that don't live up to your standards, but what do they know. Their long work history speaks volumes of their craftsmanship as well as the company they work for. 

Research is an effective tool, use it. 

http://www.martinarchery.com/2012/tradbows.php


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Martin Archery said:


> Actually what you get is a solid Bubinga riser with Maple accent, Bamboo and Carbon Fiber. These bows are hardly mass produced. Maybe you should tell the only 4 guys we trust to shape each handle by hand that they are making "cookie cutter" bows. We don't use CNC machines like other companies do. Between the 4 of them they have a combined 156 years making bows that don't live up to your standards, but what do they know. Their long work history speaks volumes of their craftsmanship as well as the company they work for.
> 
> Research is an effective tool, use it.
> 
> http://www.martinarchery.com/2012/tradbows.php


 Don't forget your service policies either. Top drawer with me over the years! :thumbs_up


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

The Tomahawk is a fine bow , and Larry Hatfield at Martins has forgotten more about archery than most of us combined wil ever know . And these bows are not mass produced , they are finely crafted hand made hunting tools . 

And guess what ... if you have a warranty problem , these companies in my experience of shooting and running an archery shop over the last 30 years , will step up and fix it quickly . 

As will many small operations/ bowyers ... but these bigger companies are where they are by selling great products with good warranties . 

The internet is full of horror stories of certain bowyers not honouring warranties , increasing and or lagging build time etc or just not building bows etc .
Do your homework.

There are many fine fine bowyers , new to the game or relatively unknown ,working from small shops etc who are yet to establish any reputation who will no doubt build you a beautiful bow and its great to have many choices . There are also some wondderful bowyers who do not have websites , nor email ...... these are often the little gems of archery and discovering them is always a bity of a buzz . But always do your research and shot as many bows as you can . 


there are many fine bows being made today , some by small companies , others by big companies . 
The Martin Hunter is a great bow and has rarely been surpassed in Norb Mullaney's testing ... The claims one here's about it being just a production bow are rather flawed in my view and often just ignorant .
You can't go wrong with either as specified in the original posting ... both are good shooting bows that'll last a lifetime and are backed up by great customer service .

If you like the design , have a look at the Sky Longhorn ...... as in Jeff Massie's bow ...... Sky builds a hack of a bow starting at around $500 .


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Martin Archery said:


> Actually what you get is a solid Bubinga riser with Maple accent, Bamboo and Carbon Fiber. These bows are hardly mass produced. Maybe you should tell the only 4 guys we trust to shape each handle by hand that they are making "cookie cutter" bows. We don't use CNC machines like other companies do. Between the 4 of them they have a combined 156 years making bows that don't live up to your standards, but what do they know. Their long work history speaks volumes of their craftsmanship as well as the company they work for.
> 
> Research is an effective tool, use it.
> 
> http://www.martinarchery.com/2012/tradbows.php


Firstly it was not the viper I was referencing...it was the venom that rattus suggested...and sorry rattus...but touting how quick and willing a company is to send you a new bow when the first ones fails is not a real strong debate point.


That said....I wish everyone a merry Christmas!..Bill.


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## feathermax ed (Jun 29, 2010)

tomohawks have lifetime warranty





thorwulfx said:


> I'm looking at getting a premium ref/def longbow in the spring, and I wondered if anyone in the forum has experience with one or both of these bows. I have read up on both of them, and they both get great reviews. I'd be getting the 64" Tomahawk, so both bows are similar in build and of the same length.
> 
> I'm open to other options, such as the Martin Venom or any other ref/def high performance longbow that goes for 700-900 bucks. Thanks in advance for your input.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks, all, for your input. 

Happy Holidays!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Firstly it was not the viper I was referencing...it was the venom that rattus suggested...and sorry rattus...but touting how quick and willing a company is to send you a new bow when the first ones fails is not a real strong debate point.
> 
> 
> That said....I wish everyone a merry Christmas!..Bill.


 Is the venom a dyed riser? You're the one trashing Martin Bub.. and ones experience is ones experience. Do you have an argument with good service whatever it might be? And the only reference to the venom I MADE was an add for one on ebay or somewhere that I found... so I ask you again.. is the venom other than bubinga and a dyed riser like you or someone said?

MARTIN VENOM LONGBOW

Sale Price: $599.00

*The longer brother to the Bamboo Viper*, the Venom offers a 66” 
length that is truly ideal for this style of reflex/deflex longbow design. 
The benefit is a smooth draw…to any draw length, and added performance as well. An ideal choice for those ‘long draw’ traditional archers! 

The Venom features a 66” length that is very popular among serious traditional archers and is ideal for today’s highly reflexed / deflexed designs. The Venom will not disappoint the archer seeking a performance-minded longbow free of hand shock and vibration. A full laminate of carbon does double duty in minimizing weight and storing e nergy. Includes owner’s manual, rest, Flemish bowstring and bow sock. 

Riser and Limb Materials
*Riser is Bubinga. Limbs have Bamboo core with carbon backing, clear glass, and black fiberglass overlays*. 

Technical Specifications
Draw Weight: 40#–65#
Brace Height: 7”–7-3/4”
Mass Weight: 1 lb. 12oz.
AMO Length: 66”


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

thorwulfx..i just took a close read on that tomohawk ss..great plains/3rivers...and i like it...tonkin cane bamboo?..yew?..bocate?..and that "Curved Stringer" they speak of?..that's simular to what the bowyer who built my american native terms as a "Fishtail Riser Design"...where the laminates have an arc to them...instead of planed flat stock glued together to produce straight line laminates...these are the traits and extra effort that to me?..gives a bow "character"...and when a bowyer goes that extra mile?...those are the things that make a bow "special" to me.

I've been a lifelong aerospace machinist...lotsa large military jet engine R&D..and before we made stuff out of titanium, waspalloy and inconel?..our mold and model makers in our mock-up shop would build it out of a vast variety of materials and one of my best buds was the lead man...so i kinda have an eye for what went into the making of these end products we call trad bows..which is why the "Double Fishtail Design" of my bushmen longbow jumped out and caught my eye..see the fore & aft arcs of the "many laminates" of exotics?...










and that's a "Double Fishtail Riser"..now..i might be telling you something you already know but..just in case i aint...the amount of skill and effort it takes to creat fishtail risers (wether they are double or single) far surpasses that of straight line laminates...the straight line laminates only start to look cool when there is many of them and the sculpting and shaping starts rendering a bit of a "pop"..but only because it's many layers and not shaped, fishtail laminates.

The tomohawk is cool...real nice looking bow...demos some serious skill and craftsmenship yet it's clean, simplistic and not over-cooked.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> Is the venom a dyed riser? And the only reference to the venom I MADE was an add for one on ebay or somewhere that I found... so I ask you again.. is the venom other than bubinga and a dyed riser like you or someone said?


it's what your link said...

*Martin Venom 66" Longbow, Right Hand, 50 lb.

The longer brother to the Bamboo Viper, the Venom offers a 66" length that is truly ideal for this style of reflex/deflex longbow design. The benfit is a smooth draw... to any draw length, and added performance as well. An ideal choice for those 'long draw' traditional archers!

Like the Viper, the Venom shares the bamboo cores, carbon fiber backing and clear glass belly laminations which all work together to not only deliver impressive performance, but striking contrast and splendor. Its riser is crafted from multicolored dyed birch laminations that give solid strength and natural beauty.

Includes owner's manual, Traditional Rest, Flemish Bowstring, and Bow Sock.

• Riser: Dyed Birch
Note - Riser wood color may vary depending on existing stock from Martin.
• Limbs: Bamboo core with carbon backing, clear glass, and black fiberglass overlays.
• Length: 66" AMO
• Mass weight: 1 lb. 12 oz.
• Brace Height: 7"-7 3/4"
*

I'm not trying to pick or stir an arguement rattus...just voicing my opinions of what i just discovered and experienced which is..

I got a lot more bow for the dough from the little guys out there...it seems they are just trying harder...that's all.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Jinkster, 

I'm with you on the fishtail/double fishtail design requiring a great level of craftsmanship. When I was thinking about how a bow riser would go together, I could easily see how a standard, straight set of laminations would work. It's complex, but you basically glue it up and then hone it down to your shape, with the angles of the final product creating the dynamic interaction between the layers of wood. Whenever you introduce curved lines into the picture, then you're talking about a tougher challenge. I know that my own level of ability with wood has never been anywhere near high enough to consider doing something like that. Maybe a self-bow one day, but the work many of the great bowyers are doing is beyond most of us. Thanks for challenging me to learn more and make a more critically considered decision here. I still don't know what I'm going to do, exactly. On one hand, I'm considering the idea of a simple, no nonsense bow that has the performance characteristics I'm looking for, because that's the really important part. For those, there are some great options at a very reasonable price. On the other hand, there's the idea that you only go down the road once, and you may as well, shoot the moon and have the bow that your heart wants. I'll be arguing with myself about this, unless my dream bow comes up for sale second hand in the interim.

Rattus, 

It appears that Martin goes back and forth as to what wood composition they use on their bows, based upon model year. I know that the picture of the Venom on more than a few websites, like Hunter's Friend, depicts a dyed laminate riser. That might not be accurate for their most recent models. In point of fact, I didn't see the Venom on their current listing of bows when I followed the link that appeared on the Martin Archery comment a ways up the thread. I certainly didn't intend to create a bone of contention here, I just wanted to use the forum as a sounding board. Whatever the Venom is made of, I'm sure it's a good shooter, and that it is treating some archers well. I can't imagine that any of the bows discussed here could be termed "bad bows." Which one is best is probably so subjective that there isn't one perfect answer. Anyhow, take it easy, all.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> it's what your link said...
> 
> *Martin Venom 66" Longbow, Right Hand, 50 lb.
> 
> ...


Ok forgive me... I didn't read the post... When the venom came out, I was thinking... dang... same bow and a little longer.... and that included essentially an identical bow... only longer... 

Aloha.. :beer: Dyed Birch... who does that?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

thorwulfx said:


> Jinkster,
> 
> I'm with you on the fishtail/double fishtail design requiring a great level of craftsmanship. When I was thinking about how a bow riser would go together, I could easily see how a standard, straight set of laminations would work. It's complex, but you basically glue it up and then hone it down to your shape, with the angles of the final product creating the dynamic interaction between the layers of wood. Whenever you introduce curved lines into the picture, then you're talking about a tougher challenge. I know that my own level of ability with wood has never been anywhere near high enough to consider doing something like that. Maybe a self-bow one day, but the work many of the great bowyers are doing is beyond most of us. Thanks for challenging me to learn more and make a more critically considered decision here. I still don't know what I'm going to do, exactly. On one hand, I'm considering the idea of a simple, no nonsense bow that has the performance characteristics I'm looking for, because that's the really important part. For those, there are some great options at a very reasonable price. On the other hand, there's the idea that you only go down the road once, and you may as well, shoot the moon and have the bow that your heart wants. I'll be arguing with myself about this, unless my dream bow comes up for sale second hand in the interim.
> 
> ...


 Martin uses dyed wood? Hmmmm I had several Bear bow takedowns that had that (grey and green) that was ok... Oh well... learn something everyday... :grin: hard on an ol man.. :grin:


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## Targets3D (Jan 25, 2010)

I was in the market for a Tomahawk and Viper Bamboo before looking at the custom route (after trying a few). Good r/d custom bows are:
Thunderchild/Buffalo by Big Jim bows
Kanati by Jason Kendall
Life Ender by Lost Creek bows
Centaur bow by Jim Neeves

Prices are generally reasonable. Good luck

K


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am not a longbow guy - but I have shot both the Martin Viper and the Tomahawk - and for me - the Viper shot exactly like my recurve - the arrow went right where I was looking - there as no handshock or vibration and it was very quiet. The Tomahawk for me was more difficult to shoot and had much more vibration than my recurve or the Viper. As far as "custom" goes - Martin will put your name on the bow and tiller it the way your want and all that stuff. Again - I am not a longbow guy - but if I were to buy one - and get into longbows it would be either the Martin Viper or the Venom. Martin makes a great bow - don't think that just because you pay more from one of these "custom" bowyers that you are necessarily bet getting more.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Agree with Sharp on the vibration with the TH, there is more vibration with the Thawk than any other longbow I have owned and shot. One comment about bows that have craftsmanship showing. That's all said and good but it's the performance and longevity of the bow that mean more. Just because a bow if crafted using intricate methods does not mean it will perform any better than a simply made bow. Case in point, take a Great Northern Critter Gitter, looks very simple, performs better than almost any longbow out there. Don't believe that a bows craftsmanship has to be something based on looks appeal. I had a chat with the Robertson clan a while back, asked him what was the difference in performance on his bows with exotic risers vs basic risers, his answer, None. Who am I to argue with one of the legendary greats.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

LongStick64 said:


> Agree with Sharp on the vibration with the TH, there is more vibration with the Thawk than any other longbow I have owned and shot. One comment about bows that have craftsmanship showing. That's all said and good but it's the performance and longevity of the bow that mean more. Just because a bow if crafted using intricate methods does not mean it will perform any better than a simply made bow. Case in point, take a Great Northern Critter Gitter, looks very simple, performs better than almost any longbow out there. Don't believe that a bows craftsmanship has to be something based on looks appeal. I had a chat with the Robertson clan a while back, asked him what was the difference in performance on his bows with exotic risers vs basic risers, his answer, None. Who am I to argue with one of the legendary greats.


Well that certainly makes sense unless you're making a bow that bends through the handle.

Aloha.. :beer:


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## Targets3D (Jan 25, 2010)

I was in the market for a Tomahawk and Viper Bamboo before looking at the custom route (after trying a few). Good r/d custom bows are:
Thunderchild/Buffalo by Big Jim bows
Kanati by Jason Kendall
Life Ender by Lost Creek bows
Centaur bow by Jim Neeves

Prices are generally reasonable. Good luck

K


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Targets3D said:


> I was in the market for a Tomahawk and Viper Bamboo before looking at the custom route (after trying a few). Good r/d custom bows are:
> Thunderchild/Buffalo by Big Jim bows
> Kanati by Jason Kendall
> Life Ender by Lost Creek bows
> ...


 Is there an echo in here... :grin:


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

I will put my Martin Bamboo Viper against any bow of similar design and dimensions. It's constructed flawlessly, and has held up to 4.5+ years of 3D, and Hunting, without fail. There is no hand shock, fast flight compatible, quiet, (note proper spelling of quiet) no stacking, smooth and fast as anything I've shot. Including the cnc brand that everyone knows about. I will be 42 this year, and some of the employees building these great bows have been at their job longer than I've been alive. Don't talk about custom if you don't know what it means. Martin has 60 years of established history (established being a key word) and I'm proud to own mine. I'm confident my bow will be around in 50 years..and so will Martin Archery. 

Chuck Jones, 30 years
View attachment 1326436

View attachment 1326437


Sometimes it's best for some people in this thread to keep quiet so we can wonder if you are an idiot.

P.S. I will EAT my Viper if you can out shoot me.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Moose,

It came to pass that I had Kegan McCabe, who is on the forum here, build me a bow. I am tickled pink with it. If you put its profile next to the Bamboo Viper's, they're very similar in design. The Omega bow is made with all native hardwood and Kegan sells them for a song. They are great bows. More rustic and simple in appearance than a Martin, but very potent and functional. 

I was never one of the Martin detractors on the forum. I love my Howatt Super D, and it is still flinging arrows like a stud at 38 years old. Owning a Martin Hunter is one of my long term goals, collection-wise. I would have no compunctions whatsoever in getting a Bamboo Viper or Venom. I think they'd both perform like champs. I'm glad that you are pleased with yours. If the reviews are representative of the general consensus, just about everyone who buys those bows, loves 'em.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I shot both - that being said - I am not a longbow shooter - but the two - I liked the Viper better - it shot exactly like my recurve - the arrows went right where I was looking - no hand shock - and very smooth. The Tomahawk was ok - but I liked the Viper much better - in fact - of all the longbows I have shot, albeit not that many - I like the Viper the best - If i ever buy a longbow it will be either a Viper or a Venom


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ken ... you could not go wrong with either , 

Fine fine bows made by a great company , with a wonderful history and and staffed by some of the best bowyers on the planet . For those old enough to remember .. Norb Mullaney ? his bow test on the Martin / Howatt Hunter showed results that stand up even today amidst the carbon , Foam cores etc ...


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Congrats Patrick! Enjoy it!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I shot both - that being said - I am not a longbow shooter - but the two - I liked the Viper better - it shot exactly like my recurve - the arrows went right where I was looking - no hand shock - and very smooth. The Tomahawk was ok - but I liked the Viper much better - in fact - of all the longbows I have shot, albeit not that many - I like the Viper the best - If i ever buy a longbow it will be either a Viper or a Venom


Long time no see...how ya been man? We had heated debates on LW regarding gap...and I borrowed a dvd. Good to see ya still haunting the forums.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

hello - I do believe you still have the dvd -


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Nah Ken, I sent that back to Wisconsin..a couple years ago..


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I like my tomahawk just fine. It has hand shock if the arrows are too light, but heavier arrows seem fast enough @ 9-10 gpp. Won a 2 day unmarked 3d with it last year. With long bows, arrow tuning is more critical, as is hand torque, so i would be reluctant to make accuracy judgements on one versus another. It can be highly personal too. Can't say it's better than any other well made bow. Something i prefer about it is the more traditional handle, compared to the semipistol grip stuff. To me, too much like shooting a recurve. Can't say enough good things about martin warranty service. I don't think it gets better. A small bowyer is fine if they've got great references you know, a history, maybe even a chance to try the stuff out, but i've seen beautiful bows that i didn't think shot very well, but others swore by. Kegan seems to have lots of satisfied clients here, so i am not surprised you like yours. Enjoy!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh, and personally, i've got no beef with dyed wood. Fine furniture is often stained. My wood arrows are too. I actually opted for colored wood on a couple of my recurves. All good to me


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