# is this safe shooting and permitted at Worlds?



## bowgirl5 (Aug 6, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned, no. Honestly, I don't trust people shooting around me, specifically when they're shooting very fast, high draw weight bows. Sight mistakes, equipment malfunctions, even physical problems- things happen. I'd rather take less of a chance.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

johniac7078 said:


> is this safe shooting and permitted at Worlds?
> http://www.youtube.com/user/erikaanear#p/u/6/100-xxo35NU
> 
> please watch video. The pro claims it is fine to shoot with someone down range. Is it?


 Which "'Worlds" are you asking about?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

This would not be tolerated at our club, pro shooter or not. It defies basic shooting range safety precautions.


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2006)

I've seen this at outdoor ranges (Easton range in Utah, Balboa Park in San Diego). The usual rule of thumb is two targets over...which the folks at Balboa seem to ignore on a somewhat frightening basis. (My own preference is 4 over when I practice...not preferable but with SD's limited options, that's how it works.)

As far as indoor goes, I've never seen this before. Usually people can shoot 3-6 arrows and go down together.

As for Worlds...world university, practice is all one line together. The one exception being the blankbale matts, but those are set off elsewhere usually. You'd have to define which Worlds you have in mind.


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## tjb50cal (Jul 5, 2010)

its very unsafe, that so called pro should be removed from the range...and so should any one following that unsafe rule...

you never allow any one or anything in front or even to the side of the shooters while they are fireing....no matter if its a bow or gun...

the very first rule when handleing weapons of any type. never point any weapon at, or towards another person or thing unless you intend to kill it...
that includes all target practices

its against the law in many places, miss use of fire arms/ weapons and thier handleing. it often followed by fines and or jail time


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

although the lady is a member of her country's national team--and IIRC in both recurve and compound--i agree with all the comments..

....it can happen to the best of us...


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

What she does in this video is wrong.Where I use to shoot she would have been asked to leave the range and perhaps even asked to not return. And if there was anyone else on the line they should have called an immediate cease fire.This is an example of what not to do.If this is happening at Easton ranges it should be brought to the attention of USAA and something said by them to Easton.I cannot believe that anyone that is a respondsible range officer would let this happen.And if you are shooting at the facility it should be brought to their attention.hugs Paula


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I am getting "Bad response from server" but the website appears to be that of Erika Annear (sp) of the Australian team. her husband Marcus runs a similar board in Australia and used to post here regularly.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

This wouldn't be OK at an open club, but from the video it appears there were very few shooters there, obviously knew each other and it was OK and perfectly safe with them.

While it's not something we teach beginners in archery, it's certainly a lot safer than standing along the ropes at the edge of the fairway when golfers are teeing off. I'd probably prefer an X10 in the arm to a Titleist in the head. 

If that upsets you, you would sure not like what we had at our club's last FITA of the season today. Halfway through 30M a couple of the club members drove onto the field pulling a trailer and started taking down the unused butts. They kept working through the next few ends during the shooting, including almost directly in line with the targets we were still shooting on (although about 125 meters away beyond the 90M line). Probably entirely safe, but a bit of a distraction.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

tjb50cal said:


> its very unsafe, that so called pro should be removed from the range...and so should any one following that unsafe rule...
> 
> you never allow any one or anything in front or even to the side of the shooters while they are fireing....no matter if its a bow or gun...
> 
> ...


Against the law WHERE? 
Fines or Jail for taking risks?

I think you're going to find it impossible to back up anything that you've said. 

I know Erika and know how well she shoots. We all have personal acceptance levels of risk. 
We have different accepted safety policy and acceptable behaviour around the world. 

Arguing about it is pointless unless you're there and can see exactly what is going on and you know what the local STATED policies are.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I find it amusing that so many people think what was in the video is unsafe - a top international level shooter at 20 yards shooting while someone is about 8-9 yards off to one side - but these same people will argue that it's everyone's right to shoot outside in their own backyards in residential areas. I'll take what Erika is doing anytime over some sky-pulling beginner with a backyard range six houses over.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

Two people not using good judgement, the shooter and the person down range.

Personally I don't care if they kill each other. This will not happen on any range I supervise. 

Question: How many seconds is the shooter saving if she waits for the range to clear? 

For those who think this is a joke we have very good ambulance chasers, sometimes call attorneys, that will be more than happy to sue you for every penny you have if an injury results from your negligence. Stupidity is NOT a defence.

Regards,


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2006)

Paula, when I began outdoor shooting in Utah at the Easton facility, several professional archers were doing this. In many ranges I've been to this is a common occurance. As anyone in my family can and has stated, we do not like it, when my university team practices it is as one line. Ranges I have seen this walking while someone shoots include:

El Dorado Park, Long Beach, ca
Balboa Park, San Diego, ca
Woodley Park, Van Nuys, ca
Discovery Park, Sacramento, ca
Golden Gate Park, San Francisco, ca
Easton Technical Range (private invite), Utah

I could keep going into the east coast/southern ranges, but here's the deal...most public ranges are open to a variety of archers, quite often teh club or community that overseas the range has posted the rules and they're very lax. The archers themselves have to be paranoid, careful, because you can't individually tell every person on the outdoor range, "Guess what folks, we're all leftrighting to 90 meters now!"

Indoors, different story. Never been to a range where people fired while others walked. There's no point in it.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Lindy said:


> Two people not using good judgement, the shooter and the person down range.


Good judgement by whose standard? 
Yours?
Just because YOU say so? It's nice to be able to sit back and proclaim judgement on other people when none of your own actions are up for scrutiny. 
Care to describe your eating, exercise, child rearing, driving, scruples, religious, moral attitudes so that I can pass judgement on you personally, Lindy?

Get real. It's none of my business or anyone else's to judge you. 

But somehow you feel it's yours to pass on someone else. 
Stupidity isn't a defence. 
Neither is arrogance.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Pretty safe, yes. You'd need to be a complete novice to hit someone at that range even with a bouncing arrow. Two targets in between (5m) is what we use as a safety standard here from 0-70m, and 10m for 90m. 18m depends of the wall at the back. Usually 5m if its solid, less if its wooden.

Fita safety regulations state 10m gap between two lines for STAR competitions.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Jim C: ex-wife 

That is the range I shoot at, and i can vouch for it being safe. It is only done when the range is VERY quiet and not when in full use. 
When our beginners are in the range they are taught to go up together etc. 
The distance there is far more than any misfire could possibly go. 
The range is about 15 yards wide.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Jim C: ex-wife
> 
> That is the range I shoot at, and i can vouch for it being safe. It is only done when the range is VERY quiet and not when in full use.
> When our beginners are in the range they are taught to go up together etc.
> ...


sorry


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

Hello Whiz,,,,,Have always enjoyed your info.Unfortunately people judge all the time.Especially without sitting down and talking to people that they judge.Unfortunately most of us that have run an indoor range find this an unsafe practice.First it is unsafe and secondly it shows a practice that neither archer respects the other while shooting.Safety while handling a weapon cannot be overlooked.Safety is always everyones business at a range. I couldn't agree with you more on the other practices that you bring up. Hugs Paula


whiz-Oz said:


> Good judgement by whose standard?
> Yours?
> Just because YOU say so? It's nice to be able to sit back and proclaim judgement on other people when none of your own actions are up for scrutiny.
> Care to describe your eating, exercise, child rearing, driving, scruples, religious, moral attitudes so that I can pass judgement on you personally, Lindy?
> ...


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

It is why town supervisors and the town boards won't allow a public archery ranges. We need just one person opposing the archery range showing the supervisor and board this video. It's called LIABILITY. 

Further we have experineced archers trained in range safety that apparently think we are too judgmental. HMMM!


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Happily we don't all live in US. No need to worry about lawyers behind every bush and rock.

I've never heard about any sort of incident with these rules I stated above during the 40-year history of my club, or any club that I know of. Of course beginners and recreational archers follow stricter rules.

Fita rules require 10m gap, and that's plenty for most cases.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

zal said:


> Fita rules require 10m gap, and that's plenty for most cases.


Just asking, but does that distance rule apply, or is intended, for the benefit of allowing downrange participants while others are shooting? The FITA Rules seem to explicitly state only shooters are allowed at the shooting line, and all others are to remain behind the line. This falls under their "Safety" section of rules. If a shooter was downrange pulling and scoring while the line was hot, per the rules, the rules state that the downrange person would be subject to reprimand and penalty. Is there a rule stating that FITA allows a mix of shooters and downrange participants. If not, it would seem that if FITA Rules are followed, the safety factor is already built into the Rule's design and doesn't need more explanation than that.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

20m from end of the target line reduced to 10m from shooting line, ie ~13m gap for spectators is stated in 7.1.1.10. 10m is for separate shooting lines.

We have a public cycle lane running along the right side of the range, and we use 10m gap there. We only shoot distances up to 50m in the closest three targets there. Both range and that cycle lane are maintained by city authorities.

Edit: also, have to state that we rarely, if ever shoot from one shooting line. As the targets are mostly unmovable type, some classes start from 90m, next line starts from 20m down the range, ie 70m and so on. Usually two lines, sometimes three or four.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

zal said:


> 20m from end of the target line reduced to 10m from shooting line, ie ~13m gap for spectators is stated in 7.1.1.10. 10m is for separate shooting lines.


I was wondering on FITA Rule 8.7.4 which states that only shooters are allowed on the shooting line. I do understand that is a different line from spectators and the forward line.

In 8.7.4.1, the Rules further clarify that when a shooter has finished shooting his/her arrows, they MUST retire behind the shooting line at the waiting line.

These rules seem to follow the Rule of 8.7.3 which states that a shooter cannot even draw a bow, arrow or not, until the range is clear in front and behind the butts. This is ambiguous, as butt(s) is plural. An explicit interpretation would be that a shooter shoots a butt not butts; although, others could find the plural meaningless. Lawyers sort legalese. But again, given 8.7.4.1, the point would be moot, as the Director should have already called anyone downrange to get off the range.

I know these are separate as rules and different from practice, as I have read. I was just wondering about official endorsement of the practice of downrange shooters. Personally, I watch myself, whether experience or inexperienced shooters on the range. Defensive safety always works, even if it means calling someone to task for invading my safety zone. Rules are there to settle disputes.


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## ebonarcher (Mar 2, 2008)

To be honest i saw the same done at the world archery festival.
I was told that people more than 30 degrees were considered safe. But there were shooter praticing on the last 5 lanes whom were each walking to target sat different times. I believe they were the people shooting the internation comp they were running. Go figure. At least nobody was hurt.


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

is this safe shooting?
Given what we know about the skill level and maturity of the archer, risk is minimized, shooting is safe.
Given the potential for misreading the situation by the less experienced archer, leaves me a bit uncomfortable.
I suppose it's a bit like a video taken from the cab of a race car. May look fine to an experienced driver, but no one would want to see a new driver at the wheel, except perhaps the new driver.


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## Jane (Nov 3, 2004)

Years ago I was judging in another country. An archer had not realized he had nocked a cracked arrow. When he released, the arrow broke into two parts. The rear part (nock end) of the shaft embedded itself into his bow hand. The front of the shaft landed in a target 7 targets away from the one he was aiming at. If I recall correctly, the targets in his area were at 70m. Seven targets equals three and a half lanes, each 5 meters wide at that time.
Fortunately, no one was between him and that target. Unfortunately, his injury prevented him from shooting in the tournament.
Jane


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jane said:


> Years ago I was judging in another country. An archer had not realized he had nocked a cracked arrow. When he released, the arrow broke into two parts. The rear part (nock end) of the shaft embedded itself into his bow hand. The front of the shaft landed in a target 7 targets away from the one he was aiming at. If I recall correctly, the targets in his area were at 70m. Seven targets equals three and a half lanes, each 5 meters wide at that time.
> Fortunately, no one was between him and that target. Unfortunately, his injury prevented him from shooting in the tournament.
> Jane


Thanks for that. The anecdote is very on point for this thread. I'd also note that "BEST Method" Setup position has the bow pointed to the left of the target, and a premature release can result in an off target trajectory. But, as Zal noted, FITA regs for archery fields have a very narrow safety lane to the sides of the field and any safety concerns about archers pulling arrows from adjacent butts apply equally, if not more so, to the narrow safety lane that separates the field from spectators.


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

Shoot through riser. Erika Anear. Several lane seperation. I'd be OK with it. Especially if I was to her right as that guy is. I'm in WAY more danger driving to and from the range... or in the good seats at a baseball game.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I have to say I agree with those that think it unsafe. I just don't understand how any risk can be acceptable when it is so easily removed from the situation. For me, the bottom line comes down to respect. Respect for the weapon that is being handled. We're not just using sporting equipment like baseball, golf, or tennis. Bows are weapons, for Pete's sake and have been designed specifically for killing other living creatures. Hell, I get nervous when shooters stand behind the line, rather than straddling it. 

You wouldn't go down range at a pistol range while the range is hot, would you? That's the level of comparison we should be dealing with. It really surprises me that this actually a topic of discussion. I mean, each is entitled to their own opinion, it just seems a silly gamble to me.


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## PeterW (Aug 17, 2010)

Unsafe. Even if Ms Erika is a very experience archer and I would trust her intent to not hurt others; I don't trust the mechanics of her bow nor her body. 

1, Her bow could fly apart even if it's not likely due to high quality workmanship and design. I've never seen this, only told thata compound can have a catastrophic failure and the arrow can fly anywhere.

2, As for her body goes:  muscle spasm? sudden pulled muscle? heart attack? sneeze?


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

Yup. And a end part can come off a golf club and hit someone in any direction... and a gymnast's grip can lock and cause his/her body to fly in all sorts of crazy ways... and a wheel on a mountain bike can come loose and throw a rider into the rocks... and a person can lose control of a bowling ball or tennis racquet... and... and... and... Don't even get me started on football, hockey, boxing, or riding a quad, snowmobile, or motorcycle.

IMO you have to know the people and situation. Would I walk down range if I were standing to the right of a left handed shooter who only comes out to prepare for hunting season. Nope. Would I do it with kids on the range. Nope. I always take a look at the shooter and the equipment he/she is using and the distance between us, etc... and then I make my choice. 

But then, I practice in sandals as well... so


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

KJarchery said:


> Yup. And a end part can come off a golf club and hit someone in any direction... and a gymnast's grip can lock and cause his/her body to fly in all sorts of crazy ways... and a wheel on a mountain bike can come loose and throw a rider into the rocks... and a person can lose control of a bowling ball or tennis racquet... and... and... and... Don't even get me started on football, hockey, boxing, or riding a quad, snowmobile, or motorcycle.
> 
> IMO you have to know the people and situation. Would I walk down range if I were standing to the right of a left handed shooter who only comes out to prepare for hunting season. Nope. Would I do it with kids on the range. Nope. I always take a look at the shooter and the equipment he/she is using and the distance between us, etc... and then I make my choice.
> 
> But then, I practice in sandals as well... so


Risk is relative. The most dangerous thing we do every day is drive. How many meters of separation are there from you and head on traffic? Typically **just a few feet**. Just one twitch, one sneeze, one inattentive moment, one distraction by you or any of the thousands of drivers you pass every day head on and you could be in a head on collision.

I find the issue of shooting past people to be a tad nuanced. I don't like it, especially not in its extreme forms. Any of us who started out shooting guns has a hard time imagining anybody being down range during live fire. On the other hand, many ranges, such as the GG Park range, work like that and have for years, having no fixed shooting lines. Even FITA doesn't give much separation from spectators, requiring only a relatively narrow safety lane at the sides of the range, even when archers are shooting from 90 meters. So there is a range of experienced opinions on this matter. I think the one thing I can say that I think we should all be able to agree on is that safety is better thought of in terms of angles rather than meters of separation, with 180 degrees being the safest from flying arrows. But there is no such thing as complete safety--all safety is relative. 180 degrees may be the safest from flying arrows, but may be the most dangerous place to be from flying bow parts if a bow blows.

There have been a number of contentious threads on this issue. I suppose it is a good thing that so many people are at least thinking about safety.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow said:


> I suppose it is a good thing that so many people are at least thinking about safety.


On that note, there is nothing least or most dangerous enough out there for me to use that danger risk as a proxy for relative risk of getting hit by an arrow from standing in an open range of propelled arrows. The question should be how much safer would it be if I didn't stand there? That is a risk assessment I make. In that vein, even the most accurate and experienced sniper will not be shooting in line with me and from my backside, even if they are a few yards to the side. I get to make that call. Others may differ and trust the shooter.

The problem would be when others may access "my risk" for me. The height of arrogance and ignorance of common decency is to assume you are a good enough shooter to make that determination for another. On that note, I would expect a shooter to ask if I minded if they shot while I was downrange, and I would answer, "no." I would assume by asking, they don't understand/respect firearms or weapons - even the stringed ones.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Folks - 

After a while we have to take responsibly for our own actions and to address where and what we do. At the ranges I currently use, or have used in the past 40 some odd years, no one is allowed forward of the shooting line during live fire. That includes ranges for hand guns, rifles and bows, regardless of who's doing the shooting. Some ranges don't even allow handling the weapons (yes Virginia, bows are weapons) during a cease fire. 

Since this seems to be common practice is some areas, that's fine with me. I will not be using those ranges; it you are OK with it, that's fine too. It's that simple. 

Just a lesson I learned a long time ago and I'm too old to change. 

Viper1 out.


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

Warbow said:


> I find the issue of shooting past people to be a tad nuanced... I think the one thing I can say that I think we should all be able to agree on is that safety is better thought of in terms of angles rather than meters of separation, with 180 degrees being the safest from flying arrows. But there is no such thing as complete safety--all safety is relative.


Agreed.

And Sanford, I agree with you as well, it is appropriate to ask and respect those around you and their feelings. That's part of assessing the entire situation and being reasonable and responsable. 

Point is, sometimes people can overreact on this one. In reality, I am MUCH more in danger when I'm in a local shop anywhere near a guy who loads a carbon he hasn't looked at in 6 months or has a frayed D-Loop/string/cable that could snap at any minute than I would be standing downrange and off to the side.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Sanford said:


> On that note, there is nothing least or most dangerous enough out there for me to use that danger risk as a proxy for relative risk of getting hit by an arrow from standing in an open range of propelled arrows. The question should be how much safer would it be if I didn't stand there? That is a risk assessment I make.


There is a place for both relative and absolute risk assessment. Both have their value. Relative risk assessment is a matter of getting one's priorities in-line with the actual risks as opposed to the perceived risks so that we can concentrate our efforts in risk mitigation in proper proportion to the real amount of risk.

Let's take a look at a very common example of skewed risk perception, the risk parents think their kids are exposed to. Researcher Christie Barnes studied what parents are worried about and compared it to the actual relative risks:



> Based on surveys Barnes collected, the top five worries of parents are, in order:
> 
> Kidnapping
> School snipers
> ...


[emphasis added]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...nts-should-drop-and-5-they-should?sc=fb&cc=fp

By ignoring actual risk and concentrating on errantly perceived risk parents are wasting their efforts and potentially endangering their kids. We need to base our efforts on actual relative risks. I'd like to know what the actual, most common injuries on the range are. I know people sometimes get hurt from push-pull bow stringing. I know people get hurt from arrows breaking on loose. (*Jane's post might equally be a cautionary tale suggesting we ban all-carbon arrows as much as an anecdote suggesting we shouldn't hot pull arrows. After all, someone did actually get hurt in that incident, so the take away should primarily be about the injury that did happen, and happens fairly regularly.*) And I've heard people get hurt during arrow pulling, as arrows unexpectedly come free and whack someone as they are pulled out. And I've heard of people being injured by standing *behind* an archer by flying bow parts when a bow blew. There may be no completely safe place to stand near an archer. I'm guessing behind and to the right of a right handed archer may be safest. But I don't know the stats. I think Kari may have some and posted them to a previous thread.

We have two primary variables to consider with archery ranges, the relative risk and whether or not we can do anything about it. FITA certainly doesn't worry much about people being down range, requiring only a relatively narrow safety lane at the side of an outdoor range. AMO / NFAA field archery range guidelines are a bit more conservative, and specify 25-50 yards between shooting lanes--which means people can be waking parallel within 25 yards of a hot lane. But, with the issue of pulling arrows on hot practice range is an issue we can affect, by opting out of ranges we don't feel comfortable with and by advocating for safe practices.

I don't choose to opt out of the GG Park range, but I do try to take mitigating steps. The issue at GG Park isn't just hot pulling arrows but the fact that there is no fixed shooting line. The butts are all at the back of the range and folks stand as close or as far as the need to get the desired distance from the butt. When I'm shooting at the shorter range at the left side, I'll often invite those with kids to shoot with me or next to me to keep the family as far away from people shooting past them, and I'll pull arrows at the same time as they do. And I try to shoot next to people shooting the same distance as I am. However, I haven't advocated for the range practices to be changed, as I'm still somewhat ambivalent about the practices. There are advantages and disadvantages to the way the range works, and there are a number of alternate ranges people can go to in the area, though not necessarily as close or convenient.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

There are a lot of people here who need to understand the difference between percieved risk and actual risk.

There is statistically and in reality no risk at all stepping out of a flying aircraft at 10,000 feet without a parachute. 

You're going to die. There is a very slight chance that you may survive. 

Archery is proven by insurance risk assessors to be one of the safest sports you can do and yet here we have people going off about something that arose because johniac7078 got upset at Erika. (Care to tell EXACTLY what happened and why you posted this, johniac? ) Facebook chat can be very educational. 

People DIE every single day in car accidents and heart attacks. You WILL know of someone who has been died this way. And you'll know why it happened. And you'll continue to not change what you're doing to avoid these far more lethal risks which will kill people around you while you pass judgement on one of the safest sports, based on a video and your inability to assess actual risk. 

If you were a professional risk assessor, you'd laugh. But you're a product of security theater where as long as you personally feel safe, you ignore the real statistical risks and actual probability. 
So everyone here who drives a car and doesn't indulge in regular exercise isn't qualified to have a valid opinion.


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## Aaron Groce (Oct 10, 2009)

safe i think it fine its not like the bow is pointing any where thear the bude if any of yall were at louisvill lat year or the year before there wer people lined up down both side of the pros shoot off. i have never seen a experianced archer that will draw the bow aimed at even a yard off target they will draw in line with the target give or take a foot


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

DISCLAIMER: It's not my intent to attack anyone, only to offer the differing and personal opinion. If I offend you Whiz-Oz, I apologize beforehand.


Whiz, you have a valid point on perceived v. actual risk, but what you don't address is necessary v. unnecessary risk. The risks we take driving and living life are necessary, otherwise the world would fall apart and we'd all be hermit cavemen. Pulling arrows on a hot range is a very unnecessary risk. Regardless of the actual or perceived value of the risk, it is still unnecessary.

When standing behind or next to an archer, you are at risk of a failing bow. You stand the chance of getting hit by debris and being injured. The worst case scenario there is the potential to lose an eye. Certainly a big deal should it happen. However, if you're down range and get hit by an arrow, the BEST case scenario is you now have an arrow sticking out of one of your limbs. The worst is they call the coroner rather than the ambulance. If you don't have to take even the smallest risk of dying by doing a small action or inaction, why would you choose to do different?

From the archer's perspective, why would you take even the smallest chance of taking someone's life if that same small action or inaction would mean they are safe? If I were the one holding the bow and accidentally through some freak sequence of events shot and killed someone, I would easily be looking at jail time not to mention that I'd have to live with that for the rest of my life. The possible worst case scenario isn't worth the couple of minutes of saved time. The safety of myself and those around me and my sanity are worth too much to take an unnecessary risk.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> There are a lot of people here who need to understand the difference between percieved risk and actual risk.
> 
> There is statistically and in reality no risk at all stepping out of a flying aircraft at 10,000 feet without a parachute.
> 
> ...


It is true that in nature there is no security. I am sure that it was a professional risk assessor that figured out that it was cheaper to pay off the dead and injured than fix the problem when Ford Pintos were blowing up. I agree with what Mulcade has to say about necessary and unnecessary risk.I do drive a car and indulge in exercise everyday.And the reason it maybe one of the safest sports is because people thru out the past never shot when others were down range. Thanks for the opinion.Always fun to read,,,,,hugs Paula


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

IMHO when it comes to safety our objective in any activity is not only minimizing but totally eliminating it whenever possible...in this case it IS possible with the aforementioned safety precautions..

why tempt fate??


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

Mulcade, 

Actually, the best case scenerio is that nothing happens, and the worst case scenerio is an arrow in a limb. The risk of death is infintisimal (I have no idea of how to spell that). In fact, the risk of even being hit would be like a kazillion to one. 

Let's speak hypothetically.

If a bow breaks (which is what we're assuming would be the situation... not that a person would aim at someone else), the velocity and direction of the arrow are both hampered and unpredictable... but will be affected by the shape of the riser and the "when" in the draw cycle it happens. IF it's lucky enough to have the speed to get downrange more than 15-20 meters, it would also then have to also be lucky enough to find a victim AND be at an angle and heigth to enter the victim. Chances are, if the person is walking back, they would hear and see the break AND the arrow (if you have ever been downrange you know what I'm talking about), and would have some time to react. If their back is turned and they are toward the target, the arrow would not likely hit the head, but if it did, would not have the direction or speed to penetrate. More likely, we're looking at a leg or back shot, which would probably not be lethal (as they would be with a gun).

Another scenerio, an archer does not have a shoot through riser but an open window, and pinches one off the rest. Which side are you standing on? The arrow can only go one way. This is situational awareness. 

Think about field courses. People have ALOT of misses and they are set up where you're walking closer to what we're typically talking about on a FITA range... and behind bails. Yet... no injuries. 

Your next point was why take ANY chance? By that logic, why ever stand near another archer or risk pulling a bow back yourself? These too are optional activities.

Very VERY few archery injuries are logged in a year. Of those, do you know what something like 99.9% of them are? Archer steps on a broadhead in his closet. Archer falls out of a tree stand. True story.

I'm not saying freak accidents CAN'T happen (just like being struck by lightning), nor am I saying that hot shooting is right for all people or ranges. An archer and a club should do what they feel is necessary to maintain safety standards. BE AWARE BE AWARE BE AWARE. As for me, about half the time I won't hot shoot for one reason or another, but about half the time I will. And as I said before, you DO have to be respectful of other people's comfort levels and perspectives. 

REALLY though, you're chances for injury are a ton greater while standing AT the line (during shooting) or AT the target (while no one is shooting, but pulling arrows).


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## KJarchery (Jun 12, 2010)

Paula said:


> And the reason it maybe one of the safest sports is because people thru out the past never shot when others were down range.


Actually Paula, some of the MOST used ranges throughout the US have been "hot shooting" for years and years and years (decades)... without incident. 

Here in Phx, for as long as I can remember, archers have been allowed to hot shoot on all of the outdoor ranges. Whether people do it or not depends on who is at the field at the time. There are those who have been around much longer than I have, but I have never even heard of a story about an injury.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm no saint in this regard but it would only take one highly publicised incident for the manure to contact the rotary ventilators.

And then all the rules in the world would descend on our heads. 

There's enough of them already. 

Be careful out there folks.


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

Big difference between what you have the right to do and doing what is right.


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## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

I've been following this thread and find it amusing that there are actually individuals who call themselves archers, saying that this is safe shooting, just because the archer involved is a top ranked shooter. The question was "is this safe shooting and permitted at the Worlds?
1. No!
Safe for who...the archer? Certainly not for the person doing the retrieval!
2. Don't know but it should not be!
Do you feel safe downrange when retrieving arrows and others continue to shoot?

If you do I guess you like playing Russian roulette!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> There are a lot of people here who need to understand the difference between percieved risk and actual risk.
> 
> There is statistically and in reality no risk at all stepping out of a flying aircraft at 10,000 feet without a parachute. You're going to die. There is a very slight chance that you may survive.


Risk isn't measure that way. Risk is a measurement of standard deviation. Stepping out of the plane carries almost -0- standard deviation of dying, which is 100% chance of being in the norm, or 100% risk. The amount of SD is large enough by factors that it is statistically impossible not to die, yet nothing is ever absolute in statistics. 



> If you were a professional risk assessor, you'd laugh. But you're a product of security theater where as long as you personally feel safe, you ignore the real statistical risks and actual probability.


I am. First and foremost, on accessing risk, one should never use the risk from ane activity to calculate the risk of the activity being accessed. IOW, as a proxy of risk. Different standard deviations, different cost basis. To know if something is over or under evaluated as to its risk assessment, the utility or price of the activity must be considered as well. Others have covered that as the difference between having to drive a vehicle v. not driving due to the risk. The cost not to drive factors into our decision to take the risk to do so.

If risk can ever be minimized but is not and by matter of choice, we are taking in more risk than the cost of the activity warrants or at some point, one of those huge standard deviation events, one of the statistically impossible ones, comes along and makes our whole risk assessment void. Sometimes, it's too late to recalculate.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Mulcade said:


> DISCLAIMER: It's not my intent to attack anyone, only to offer the differing and personal opinion. If I offend you Whiz-Oz, I apologize beforehand.


Lets clear the decks on this one. Your job here is to convince me with logical argument and clear communication which undermines my conviction in my own opinion. If you can do that, then we've both won. 
If you want an example of clear, logical argument technique, look to Warbow. He will find any ****** in your argument and next you'll be finding a wall of factual information with references obliterating your ill considered argument. It's not a personal attack, it's public education. You only stand to lose anything if you're arrogant enough to think you have nothing to learn.

Essentially though, people have been doing their own risk assessment with archery for several thousand years and more importantly, in modern times with increased personal density in organised shooting environments. 
The perception of a dangerous activity exists even within the archery community. The reality of who actually does get hurt which is the real demonstration of the actual risk involved is there to be seen. 
In the end, your actions in everyday life determine what you personally consider to be acceptable or unacceptable risk, regardless if you're considering the actual statistical probability or not. 
If your perception is that something is an acceptable risk and you choose to base that on an emotional response rather than a risk managed outlook don't expect me to side with you unless my opinion is the same. You can't argue your opinion because it's individual. If you choose to only lightly consider things based on uninformed opinions, you'll be arguing from an extremely weak position. You may as well argue your favourite icecream is the best. 
People for years have been reasonably accurately judging what is acceptable risk. This is reflected in the extremely low worldwide accident rates for archery. 
Single episodes of stupidity DO NOT affect anything. If they did, then the well publicised accident in China where a pair of kids managed to put an arrow through one of the kids eyes would have everyone up in arms. And it hasn't, so people once again decided that it wasn't worth worrying about. 
So while it's fun to watch safety hysteria in action, it just goes to prove again that emotional responses overrule logical proof.

Archers apparently collectively are reasonably good at acting safely. The results speak for themselves. 
The average person is happy to ignore the risks which kill more people every day. 
The average person is far happier to send their kids to a house with a pool than a house where they know there is a firearm. 

Thus, the average person can be relied upon to draw the wrong conclusions with regards to what is safe and what is not.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

It's obviously less safe than if there's no shooting going on. 

The litmus test for me in questions of safety is always "would I volunteer my daughter to be exposed to this degree of risk?" 

In this case, while I'm not advocating that this practice is 'ok in every circumstance', I wouldn't be uncomfortable if it were me exposed to this minimal risk, but I would be very upset if it were my daughter exposed to this risk (in the same way that I ride a street motorcycle, but have no interest whatsoever in my daughter riding one).


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jmvargas said:


> IMHO when it comes to safety our objective in any activity is not only minimizing but totally eliminating it whenever possible...in this case it IS possible with the aforementioned safety precautions..
> 
> why tempt fate??


I think you can make a very good case for having a range where all people must stand behind the shooting line while the range is hot. But I think it is an overstatement to claim to totally eliminate any risk by that practice. There are already incidents of people behind archers being injured by flying bow parts when a bow blew. The only way to truly eliminate risk to spectators and adjacent archers is to have every archer shoot from individual enclosed booths. But I doubt you'll make such a proposal even though "it IS possible with the aforementioned safety precautions." The fact is that we all take some risks, and we organized them into a hierarchy, and you are doing that, too. You don't actually draw the line at absolute safety, not even close, you just draw your line of compromise at a different place than some people in this thread. I'm not saying your threshold is wrong, only that I hope you recognize that is what you are actually doing rather than being "absolutely" safe.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lksseven said:


> I would be very upset if it were my daughter exposed to this risk (in the same way that I ride a street motorcycle, but have no interest whatsoever in my daughter riding one).


I think that brings up an interesting contrast we have as adults. Kids need their parents, yet parents often take risks they know they should protect their kids from. In many cases, that is the job of parents, to take on the burden to protect kids. But in other cases, especially for entirely optional risks taken for recreation, a serious injury to the parent could ultimately be harmful to the kid. It is one of the things I think about when I see a family out on bikes and the kids have helmets and the adults don't. The parents are being thoughtful and protecting their kids, but may not be thinking it all the way through. And there is the issue that kids model the behavior of adults rather than listen to them, so if we want kids to do something it usually helps if we do it too, especially since many of the things we tell kids to do we really should be doing ourselves as well. And for kids archery programs I think there is no question that a fixed shooting line and with a range master and adults all modeling disciplined behavior is the way to go.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow,

The comparison ought to be one where is it more likely you will get an errant arrow in your butt behind the shooting line or downrange of shooters. For getting an arrow in my butt, I can be totally be safe if I don't turn my backside to flung arrows. Almost 100% guaranteed safety - for that one risk. My other risks, at the line, are maybe less subject to mitigation, but that shouldn't factor into my decision to mitigate the errant arrow risk.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Sanford said:


> Warbow,
> 
> The comparison ought to be one where is it more likely you will get an errant arrow in your butt behind the shooting line or downrange of shooters. For getting an arrow in my butt, I can be totally be safe if I don't turn my backside to flung arrows. Almost 100% guaranteed safety - for that one risk. My other risks, at the line, are maybe less subject to mitigation, but that shouldn't factor into my decision to mitigate the errant arrow risk.


It is a good place to start, but the more comprehensive question is "where am I more likely to get injured" rather than merely thinking about the obvious risks. By only seeing the obvious risks we often ignore the actual, more common risks. I'm not saying you are wrong about the risk of arrows, but by creating a hierarchy that ignores the other risks you may be inadvertently doing "risk compensation," that is, unconsciously taking other risks because you think you are safe by being behind the shooting line.

Let's ask this question, for all those people who are aghast about hot pulling, how many of them are really for maxim safety measures for real, preventable risk? If they are really all for maxim safety, then they should all be for banning all-carbon arrows--a known risk which regularly results in serous injury when arrows break on loose. I'll make a guess that almost none of the people who are very fervent about safety when it comes to vivid seeming risks like being down range of a shooter are consistent when it comes to less sexy issues like all-carbon arrows, which I'm guessing (just a guess) cause far more injuries than hot pulling. (And yes, there is such a thing as an educated guess. By having some knowledge about a topic we can eliminate those things we know to be impossible and center on what we know to be possible. The more we know, the more we can eliminate, and the more likely our guess can be.)


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow, it's like the lottery. Folks don't expect to win, as the odds are pretty well known to be statistically impossible to expect a win. The payoff is huge enough and the price is low enough that folks do play, even given there guaranteed chances of losing.

At the line, one can be hit by debris and possibly suffer serious injury. Death? In front of the line, the same or worse can happen, an arrow in the skull, back, or abdomen is a pretty bad lottery payoff for some folks even if the statistics on winning that lottery is nil to none. Given death as a payoff of play, most folks are risk averse enough that they don't play lotteries on their life, even statistically impossible lotteries. It's just a game most choose not to play, yet, correctly stated, they may play other chances in life.

Now, this is not considering that some folks thrive on risk. Maybe they climb mountain faces with no lines and hooks. They cheat death and the "cheat" is their payoff. I don't know, maybe the same feeling comes over those who shoot in front of other shooters. Kind of a light payoff if so.

The fallacy in thinking comes to be when folks say, "you're more likely to die from xy than from doing z, statistically, therefore, z is safer." No, z is never any safer than is was or wasn't. Likewise, Z doesn't make xy more risky. Risk cannot trade places like that.

My beef would still be with the person who started shooting while I was downline. Here, that person would have supplanted their risk tolerance on me without my consideration. If the two in video started in agreement, that would be their decisions and hopefully in consideration of the range owner's wishes. If I was downrange and she just walked up and started shooting, a bow necklace for her would not be uncalled for.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow said:


> By having some knowledge about a topic we can eliminate those things we know to be impossible and center on what we know to be possible. The more we know, the more we can eliminate, and the more likely our guess can be.)


We can never use statistical analogies to calculate impossibilities. Most all of the things that wipe us out come from outside that Bell Curve- the extent of our ability to predict future events. IOW, due to the complex, idiosyncratic, and dynamic nature of us and nature, we can only guess. It's all a guess. I think HL Mencken sums up our abilities concerning that. :angel: Sorry, just funnin around here.


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

I'm reminded of several things.

One is a video I have of Howard Hill shooting (on the Errol Flynn version of Robin Hood Blue Ray) where he sets some guy down and shoots an apple and plumb from the top of his head. He does so at apparently around 10 yards or so (from his walking) and uses broadheads on the arrows - he always did as that is what he practices with. The guy runs off in mock fear when he picks a grape up - it is quite a funny skit. Yet I truly feel a tightening of nearly every muscle in my body when he shoots both the apple and plumb off the guys head, yet Hill did similar for decades with no one injured.

Would we do that today? It is, of course safe by the standards set above - hundreds if no thousands of shots where everything went right. Yet, a limb de-laminating, a strong gust of wind, a momentary loss of focus, indeed - a great deal of things and someone takes a broadhead from a high poundage bow in the forehead or eye. I wouldn't do it for any amount of money in the world, yet look at the number of people who did that, held cigarettes in their mouths as sharpshooter shot them with a .22, or any other number of trick shots that we never heard of deaths with?

The second thing I am reminded of is witnessing an carbon arrow have the front three inches break off the arrow and careen three target butts the the right and smash into a steel pylon that supports our building. Would suck to be standing there in a "safe" zone. Firearm people have long ago realized that if something has a chance greater than zero of happening it will - lots of things that are *not* in the archers control that can happen so skill level only makes some difference. 

I wouldn't do it, obviously many would. Many stood downrange and let Hill shoot plumbs off their heads with a longbow from the shelf with broadheads too. They all survived, though there are a number who didn't for people either lesser than Hill or more unlucky than him. Personally I'll take zero chance when all it means is I have to wait an extra 30 seconds to go pull my arrows. 

Yea, I take greater risk driving to work but I try and minimize that risk as best I can. In this case you aren't remotely doing that at all - you are *maximizing* it up to the point of unacceptable instead of minimizing it to the point of too much inconvenience. As such if a "pro" balks at that then they can ... well it's a phrase that really shouldn't be uttered here but generally would require said pro to pucker their lips and use part of my lower abdomen. Last I checked I'm not terribly interested in creating unnecessary risk to my life so they can shoot 10% more arrows whilst at the range, they can pay to make their own range at their home - I really do not care about them enough to do so. If they think that acceptable then I will recall that later on (though in this case the individual walking down range obviously felt that an OK tradeoff).


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

lksseven said:


> It's obviously less safe than if there's no shooting going on.


less? sure.

how much less? to the point of danger? depends very much on the circumstances.

I'll happily go downrange and pull arrows while other people are shooting, given confidence of my safety. that confidence comes from my assessment of the situation, which includes the angle of the shot and my own knowledge of the other archer. on my indoor range, when it's quiet two shooters can set up 20m apart for an 18m distance - that would require a 45° off angle shot to be a problem for me. if I'm shooting with someone who thinks an 8 is an incredibly poor shot and I've had a chance to observe their general range safety standards over a considerable time, then I'm quite at peace. other people I wait for.

if you don't feel comfortable in that regard, then don't go - simple.

I reject the safety nazi point of view that anything that might possibly under any circumstances potentially be a risk as the sort of politically correct bollocks that makes people ignore safety rules as irrelevant to the real world.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

FYI

http://www.geelongarchers.page.tl/Archery-d--Accidents-DO-Happen.htm


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2006)

Well, at Worlds, we shot blankbale, compounders were retrieving arrows. Basically, was ok to shoot from 10 meters while the folks 20 meters to the side were pulling arrows.

Archery, fyi, is rated as the second safest sport in the world, with something silly like .002 per capita of injuries reporting to the hospital. The pictures posted above come from around the world, indicating (to me at least) if you need pics from around the world....accidents do happen, knock on wood, be careful, etc.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

I agree, archery is the safest sport. Here are the statistics. http://www.nyssf.org/statistics1998.html

I think billards may be safer!!


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

Were I the shooter, I would be very upset with someone going downrange to retrieve arrows. I am very confident in my ability and my equipment. I have spent enough time shooting to know that releases break, D loops break, and all other sorts of things can, and do happen. Being responsible for the shot I am not comfortable with folks taking chances with fate when I am involved. It's not fair to me to ruin my practice session.


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## tjb50cal (Jul 5, 2010)

Lindy said:


> FYI
> 
> http://www.geelongarchers.page.tl/Archery-d--Accidents-DO-Happen.htm



i'm glad to see some ranges take safety seriously. :set1_applaud:


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## hoytarcherygal (Sep 13, 2010)

i think what was shown in the video was unsafe. Injury would most likely not have occured because she missed that far but because of a mechanical failure. I had a wierd experience with a mechanical failure with my target recurve at a tournament where to make it a short story, was like a dry fire but with an arrow loaded and the arrow cam straight up out of the bow and landed on the floor in front of me. It could have been a lot worse. It goes to show you that things can happen and you never know when its going to happen. You should always act with caution and with safety in mind in case something were to happen.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Seems pretty dangerous NO ONE IS PERFECT If so the word accident would not exist.. What about the kid killed by a 22 bullet that deflected off target through back stop left building entered other building and struck kid in head... this was at a annually inspected certified gun club built totally up to code.. Also why couldn`t the archer wait till other shooter returned over shooting line and then shot their allotted 3 arrows and then pulled all together... Or has fame gone to some ones head here...


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## sean (May 31, 2003)

bowgirl5 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, no. Honestly, I don't trust people shooting around me, specifically when they're shooting very fast, high draw weight bows. Sight mistakes, equipment malfunctions, even physical problems- things happen. I'd rather take less of a chance.


 people have zero respect for a bow as a deadly weapon , this is ridiculous behavior you would never see this kind of stuff at a rifle or pistol range , someone shooting with me down range is itchin for a sore jaw imo


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## sean (May 31, 2003)

scriv said:


> Were I the shooter, I would be very upset with someone going downrange to retrieve arrows. I am very confident in my ability and my equipment. I have spent enough time shooting to know that releases break, D loops break, and all other sorts of things can, and do happen. Being responsible for the shot I am not comfortable with folks taking chances with fate when I am involved. It's not fair to me to ruin my practice session.


its the responsability of the person on the firingline to insure that its clear downrange before firing their weapon no excuses


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## tjb50cal (Jul 5, 2010)

sean said:


> people have zero respect for a bow as a deadly weapon , this is ridiculous behavior you would never see this kind of stuff at a rifle or pistol range , someone shooting with me down range is itchin for a sore jaw imo


i agree, but with my old instincts ,and to quote Ted Nugents song.....I Shoot Back


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

sean said:


> its the responsability of the person on the firingline to insure that its clear downrange before firing their weapon no excuses


Thank-you for simply re-stating my point.


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