# Expansion vs. pulling.



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Have a look at this video and tell me, which archer is expanding, and which archer is pulling?

Watch the string march across the chest guard/logo of one archer vs. the other, beginning at 2:12 vs. 2:22; then at 3:02 vs. 3:12, and so on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYc3Kzf09VI

I believe we U.S. coaches were told at one point that with proper expansion, there should be no noticeable movement of the string across the chest guard? 

Is this still the case, or are we back to pulling now?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I was taught by Coach Kim no visible movement during expansion. 

A great observation on your part and a surprise to see this from such a high level Archer, it will be interesting to view footage from previous years to see if it's recent change in Form. 

The Koreans have shooting Form down to a fine art, it's a movement at it's most graceful and beautiful to watch, it kinda makes everybody else look sloppy, I guess it must drive them crazy when they get beaten by what they likely consider sloppy form


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## saxonbow (Feb 14, 2011)

yes there is a clear movement of the string hand at anchor on the second archer,it looks like he,s pulling and not Expaning.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

I always thought that was one of the major difference between many US shooters and several other countries. No so much expansion, but for the fact that they focus on using a "Push" of the bow hand. Almost every article I have read on Korean Techniques states that there should be no movement of the drawing hand once anchored. Just my two cents...


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## saxonbow (Feb 14, 2011)

i had herd that the second archer had come down in poundage,and maybe he started pulling at the higher poundage and this habit has contiued into the lower poundage,just something i read some were dont if its true or not ,there is a top Korean archer that pushes with the bow arm,no movement at anchor but a clear push of the bow arm.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

There are theories and there are practical applications/adjustments. What is working for you when you are 85 kg in body weight and 20 years old can't work exactly same at >35 and > 100 kg. Style needs changes, way to same scores and consostency may be different. Why we don't have videos of "former" OH Hin Jek? How he was shooting before 2009, when he came out from obscurity and shot the 90 mt WR with is unprecedented "compound" shooting style?
Any top coach in the world will agree that the string should not move on face during the so called expansion. If it moves (back), it only means transfer has not been done properly and archer is mainly pulling, or that he has bean teached to do so. If it happens randomly, it is not in his technique, if it happens constantly, it is. Not said a coach teached him to do so. May be simply he evolved (involved) technique by himseld because of differetn personal factors. 
Just one more bit: controlling clicker position in relationshiop to anchor (=controlling front shoulder relative position) without a linear traction and without watching the cliker is much more difficult as of so many changes of angles to be included in it, and may easily end up to the need of pulling to come out from the cliker, as being too far from it.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

As long as you're not doing any anatomical damage (to yourself), I seriously doubt it matters one bit. The bow/arrow has no idea what you're doing or think your doing, it only knows the forces acting on it. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great stuff, as usual Vittorio.

I can personally attest to the need for changing technique through the years, and even through the days of a single event at times. I typically give my top students several tools to work with. We identify their primary method of breaking the clicker (the "organic" one for them you might say) and rely on that day-to-day. However, I always give them a "plan B" option for the times when plan A is simply not working. I will have them practice "plan B" enough to gain confidence in it, so it is there when they need it. But the hope is that they will be prepared enough and strong enough both physically and mentally to execute plan A for all their arrows.

Bob, I believe you are correct. It must drive the Koreans absolutely crazy to lose to archers with less elegant technique, but that is the nature of the sport. The only thing that really matters at the end of the day is where the arrow lands - not who shot it or how it was shot. 

The Korean archer in this video has such simple technique and such great control. I do not know why anyone needs to make this sport any more complicated than that. 

Love the little drop and push of the bow shoulder that Kim exhibits halfway through his draw. Very solid stuff.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

So, would it be 'generally' true that the Koreans are closer to the clicker break at anchor/holding than mere mortals, with less expansion required to get through the clicker, thus greater precision?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, they are mere mortals. They just have better coaching and more archers to select from than we do here in the states. 

And yes, I think that video is an excellent example of just how close to the tip of the arrow this young man is setting up. No noticeable movement to break the clicker. Must be just a few mm's. 

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Just as a parlor room/general discussion, what would be the primary reasons for American archers to set up their holding/anchor further away from clicker break than do Korean archers? Less emphasis on this in training? Different philosophy? Or maybe just a greater tendency for more American archers to be over bowed, and thus less able to achieve that fine precision/control consistently?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

To be fair, this is one archer. And this is the most movement I can recall seeing of the string against his chestguard, ever. It could be as simple as Vittorio says - people change a little over time. Not sure. Only he would know. 

I do agree that a higher % of American archers seem to be overbowed as compared to Koreans. Is that training, technique, or even reality? Not sure.

Indoors, there is never a logical reason to be overbowed IMO. Not when the Korean women are shooting 590's.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Would be interesting to see how far the arrow point is under his clicker at anchor. He's clearly pulling allot, if he's pulling more than the arrow point moves than something in his bow arm is moving backwards, which you can see when you look at his arm guard, it moves backwards and rotates a bit(unfortunately the camera is not standing still so it's hard to see). I have the same problem, in that I pull more than the arrow actually moves across the clicker, but that's because my shoulder is riding up, which is not in his case.


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## kupop18 (Sep 22, 2014)

steve morley said:


> I was taught by Coach Kim no visible movement during expansion.
> 
> A great observation on your part and a surprise to see this from such a high level Archer, it will be interesting to view footage from previous years to see if it's recent change in Form.
> 
> The Koreans have shooting Form down to a fine art, it's a movement at it's most graceful and beautiful to watch, it kinda makes everybody else look sloppy, I guess it must drive them crazy when they get beaten by what they likely consider sloppy form


Found some older footage.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Perhaps a little off topic, but I find it interesting watching Kim Jaeh Yeong's drawing hand. Right as he begins to draw he rotates his draw hand back/forth a little.


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

williamskg6 said:


> Perhaps a little off topic, but I find it interesting watching Kim Jaeh Yeong's drawing hand. Right as he begins to draw he rotates his draw hand back/forth a little.


Maybe to seat the string in tab? ....just guessing.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Vittorio said:


> Any top coach in the world will agree that the string should not move on face during the so called expansion


That doesn't seem to rule out the head moving back with the string, though. :dontknow:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> That doesn't seem to rule out the head moving back with the string, though. :dontknow:


No. It does not. McKinney describes exactly that in his book, and if you watch Butch Johnson closely, you will see his head turn away from the target as he goes through the clicker. He's done that since I've known him.

Lots of ways to get that last little bit of movement. Lots of ways.


John


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## Mombo59 (May 3, 2013)

Is it possible the Korean is pushing through the clicker instead of expanding? Or at least some combo of pushing and expanding!
That would explain why we don't see the string move on his face or chest protector.

Tony


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Welcome to the magical world of geometry, threshold of human perceptiveness, and visual illusions.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mombo59 said:


> Is it possible the Korean is pushing through the clicker instead of expanding? Or at least some combo of pushing and expanding!
> That would explain why we don't see the string move on his face or chest protector.
> 
> Tony


Kim has a little push (you have to look hard to see it at 2:09 and 2:34) as he rotates his bowarm clockwise during the draw. I say "push" but it's really more dropping the bow shoulder. This would leave him very little room to actually push through the clicker. But obviously he is not pulling much, so what that tells me is that he is setting up so close to the point of the arrow that only a tiny amount of movement is needed to break the clicker. He is one of the best examples I've seen of "no" noticeable movement at the clicker. Even the Koreans on the London team all had some noticeable string movement across their chest guards. Not much , mind you, but some.

I don't want folks to think I'm saying no movement is better. That's not what I'm saying. It could be, but there are too many great archers who have pulled the string across their chest guard to say it is wrong. As McKinney states in his book, there are some who pull, some who push and some who do both. 

It would appear to me that Kim is doing both (true expansion) but only after setting up so close to the clicker break that the amount needed is almost impossible to see.

IMO, his technique is nearly flawless. Not quite Park Sung Hyun territory, but close.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great close-up of Kim at 6:55. I cannot see any movement.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Watching Oh's shot, I don't see much movement of the string either. Watch at 5:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8hMeN7Z_yo


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

It's pretty clear that Oh is a pusher. Bow arm bends before he hits anchor, and extends it to pop the clicker.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

kshet26 said:


> It's pretty clear that Oh is a pusher. Bow arm bends before he hits anchor, and extends it to pop the clicker.


OH is a pusher + compound stile front shoulder and 2 fingers hold/release. He is not considered shooting "Korean style"by Korean national team coach (he commented to me in Nimes this year..) 
As I already noted several times since first time I have seen him shooting in 2009, he is the living exemple that recurve archery still has a lot of technique variations to explore ... 

My video from 2009 WC


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> he is the living exemple that recurve archery still has a lot of technique variations to explore ...


For the past 15 years, the formula for an Olympic gold medal would appear to include shooting a style that is not taught by the majority of coaches. LOL.

Just look at the last 3 individual Olympic gold medalists. Galiazzo, Ruban and Oh. The three have nearly nothing in common. 

This is why I tell my students that after a certain point, they must find their shot and know it better than anyone else. Even their coach.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Confused:

Total Archery correction to 2nd edition:
"During the expansion the draw elbow is brought behind in conjunction with the draw arm scapula being squeezed towards the spine, whilst the bow arm scapula is not squeezed towards the spine, but maintains its position as low as possible."

So NTS has been modified to a pure "pulling" approach (as per say old traditional UK coaching method)?
So dragging the string across the chest protector is now the norm?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Joe, you're not the only one who is confused. You should have been in on this from day 1 like I was... Oh the changes it's gone through just in the past 7 years.


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

Anyone else notice Brady using the NTS stance du jour?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Joe T said:


> Confused:
> 
> Total Archery correction to 2nd edition:
> "During the expansion the draw elbow is brought behind in conjunction with the draw arm scapula being squeezed towards the spine, whilst the bow arm scapula is not squeezed towards the spine, but maintains its position as low as possible."
> ...


You are right. Description as written is exactly the so called old pure "pulling" tecnique, at least in my knowledge.


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## MrPhil (Aug 14, 2017)

Joe T said:


> Confused:
> 
> Total Archery correction to 2nd edition:
> "During the expansion the draw elbow is brought behind in conjunction with the draw arm scapula being squeezed towards the spine, whilst the bow arm scapula is not squeezed towards the spine, but maintains its position as low as possible."
> ...


Can anyone explain to me briefly which expansion technique is currently tought in the NTS?

I'm from Germany where a technique partially related to the KSL method is teached. My former coach explained to me that I should squeeze the draw scapula down towards the spine. He claims this will open up the chest, leading to expansion.
To me, this makes no sense as I will not be able to get through the clicker unless 
A) I pull across the chest protector (head moving or string moving on the chin),
or B) I keep pushing on the bow arm side simultaneously, i.e., balance the forces on both sides,
or C) there is room in the bow arm side to push through the clicker.

In my opinion, no real "expansion" can happen simply from pulling. Only option B) should open up the chest to achieve real expansion, but the emphasis must not be on the draw side but on maintaing proper balance. Am I wrong?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I can't speak for NTS because I have never been trained in that system but I have been coached in it. Jake teaches that you should be constantly extending the bowarm to the target but that most of the motion comes from moving "LAN2" a mystical point on the back off the draw shoulder back and around toward the spine. 

Once again the question is what you mean by expansion. In my view what we want to talk about is expansion along the line of the arrow, and only along that line. Yes, you can get that by pulling, you can get that by pushing. Whether one pushes or pulls to complete the shot seems a rather silly point to debate to me. There MUST be a balance of forces prior to release and there must be expansion to get through the clicker. There is a lot of misunderstanding of how expansion can happen. Anatomically, what is most important IMO is the movement of the scapulae. If you want to extend the bowarm to the target, you are doing so by depressing the scapula. If you don't keep it down you collapse. On the draw side you can expand by rotating the humerus about the GH joint, or you can also depress the scapula. The only way to increase the distance between the shoulders is to depress the scapulae. You can assist in rotation at the shoulders but moving the scapula toward the spine, which effects expansion across the chest, but it comes from rotation at the shoulders, which I suggest is not the most effective way to expand along the line of the shot without horizontal variance. Breathing in does the same thing as moving the scapulae back, and actually works against expansion by lifting the scapulae.

If you are aligned for maximum transfer of force to the body using bones, and you want to expand to finish the shot, you can do it with a slight depression of the scapulae or you can rotate the arm about the shoulder on the draw side. I suggest that the former is more effective with respect to remaining aligned but most people finish with rotation mostly initiated by the deltoid. Scapular depression takes different muscles that need to be trained, and you have to set up close to the clicker to finish that way without needing rotation at the shoulder, but it is anatomically sound. The distance between the shoulders is set by the clavicles, which are the only bones that connect the shoulder to other bones in the body (sternum) and the only way movement at the shoulders really changes the distance between the shoulders is scapular depression. Personally, I think one is always pushing with the bowarm and I prefer to push to the extent that there is no more expansion on that side. Then the shot needs to be completed by rotating the inferior angle of the scapula on the draw side to the spine, using mostly lower lats and lower rhomboids. If one closes the scapula to the spine too early, there is little room for this rotation and you have to finish with the deltoid.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

According to Jake, 1mm of expansion is enough to make the fingers to release the string. What IF the expansion is nothing but a subtle muscle contraction enough to cause the “collapse” of the fingers under the draw weight pulled at full draw? What if all the years of training have just one single purpose: to finally reach that stance where your fingers tension is “just enough” to hold the string? Maybe this can explain why each high level archer has his own way of getting at full draw (build up “just enough” tension for his body and bow, inside the system he was taught of course) If this is the case, maybe the shoulder movement discussed out of context is not relevant. The same way the LAN is irrelevant without being a sword fighting practitioner.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

For me I imagine bow arm movement at the shoulder pushing the bow towards the target and not the bow hand- probably by depressing the scapula but as DO mentioned it is a very slight movement 1mm or so moving the bow toward the target keeping the arrow aligned with the sight picture (I shoot barebow not Olympic and anchor on the side of my face). At the same time you can't let your draw arm or fingers collapse so there is a slight build up of tension there too and if all goes well the arrow goes where it was aimed and my draw hand when release moves straight back along the side of my face. When you do it right you feel it when you don't you know it--


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## MrPhil (Aug 14, 2017)

Thanks Icaillo for the indepth explanation!
If you are pushing with the bow arm to the maximum already before expansion, how does expansion happen (not which motion used, you stated that)? Is it achieving a slightly better alignment, i.e., the angle between shoulder and arrow line at the pressure point closes?

I believe often there is a miscommunication going on with not enough focus in the bow arm side, at least I see this in my club. Of course, some archers already "push" enough naturally, but a coach should identify the weak spots/side in the shot process.

I agree that a common language - at least among coaches - would definetely help to communicate things more clearly.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

If the bow arm is extended as far toward the target as it will go, there is no more expansion on that side. It all has to come from the other side. What many top archers have described to me on this matter is that whether you are actually moving when you push or not you have to be pushing and if you are not you are likely collapsing. The majority have describe that the push is not actual movement but they THINK of continuing to move toward the target. 

I believe that most people finish with rotation of the draw arm about the shoulder, and some finish with depression of the scapula or a combination. How much expansion you can get from rotating the scapula down will depend on where you start and when you drop it down. It is like sliding the scapula to the spine with the rhomboids. There is not much range of movement and if you close it to soon, there is nowhere left to go. This is why I say that I believe most finish with rotation mostly coming from the rear deltoid. Coordination can take many forms, and everyone has different timing of which muscles do what when. I would not try to enforce any particular combination but decide on the motion you want and work on that fiercely and let the coordination develop. If you aren't getting the motion you want it may be necessary to change the emphasis on what you try to do when or what cues you are using. This is where video and a coach is important. 

Remember, the point of understanding the anatomy is to only wrap context around what we do (moreso for coaches than athletes) and develop a universal language so that we can share ideas effectively, not to prescribe a specific coordination of this muscle then that. At least this is my opinion. It is the biggest reason my suggestions were rejected by the old NAA coaching committee, however, so YMMV if you think they took the right path with a one size fits all "best" methodology. They wanted me to do EMG studies to find the magic combination of muscle timing and I rejected that as a foolish direction. There is no universal magic formula. Coordination is complex and is developed from physical training, psychological training, environmental responses, and mapping all that to the individual's affordances and abilities.


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## MrPhil (Aug 14, 2017)

In most aspects I agree with you, but I'd like to discuss tge very basic concept for now.
Then, in my opinion, there is no expansion which can happen only on the draw side - unless doing something on the draw side automatically influences the bow arm side. You can either pull into/along your face (not wanted), move your head (not wanted), change your alignment (probably ok), or push with your bow arm in some way (if bow arm/shoulder is not 100% extended). But from an isolated(!) movement on the draw side alone, i.e., bow side and head does not move at all, getting through the clicker simply cannot happen - at least I don't see how.

Again, this is only about the very basic concept, not how one should actually achieve expansion. In reality, most archers will use an individual combination of all possibilities.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Icaillo, may I ask a question? If the bow arm is pushed as much as possible toward the target and the string hand is pushed back as much as possible, which are the muscles linking the shoulder joints to the trunk that through contraction can provide an additional extension enough to activate clicker and release?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

MrPhil said:


> In most aspects I agree with you, but I'd like to discuss tge very basic concept for now.
> Then, in my opinion, there is no expansion which can happen only on the draw side - unless doing something on the draw side automatically influences the bow arm side. You can either pull into/along your face (not wanted), move your head (not wanted), change your alignment (probably ok), or push with your bow arm in some way (if bow arm/shoulder is not 100% extended). But from an isolated(!) movement on the draw side alone, i.e., bow side and head does not move at all, getting through the clicker simply cannot happen - at least I don't see how.
> 
> Again, this is only about the very basic concept, not how one should actually achieve expansion. In reality, most archers will use an individual combination of all possibilities.


Actually, I think that people do pull into their face and many do move their head. Perhaps not optimal but the head can turn and translate in the horizontal direction, and the nose which is often a reference point is flexible. In my case, I was digging into my nose and it moves a lot (boy that just opened me up for some [email protected]$$ comments) so I changed my anchor to a kisser button just touching the side of my nose. With a side anchor solid under my chin I can continue the motion without turning my head and the "just touching" my nose is more reliable than pressing against it in the middle. But expansion is a very small movement anyway. You are correct, however, that adding a variable of rotating or moving the head is one more thing that might cause variablility in the shot. IMO we want to remove as many variables as we can and keep things moving along the line of the shot. But that IS the challenge that we all fail at to some degree isn't it?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Draven Olary said:


> Icaillo, may I ask a question? If the bow arm is pushed as much as possible toward the target and the string hand is pushed back as much as possible, which are the muscles linking the shoulder joints to the trunk that through contraction can provide an additional extension enough to activate clicker and release?


I don't know what you mean by the string hand pushed back as much as possible. You can always keep moving it "back" by rotating the humerus about the GH joint. The deltoid mostly does this, but the rhomboids can assist if the scapula is not closed to the spine already, and the lower lat among others can assist if the scapula is not rotated down to the point where there is no more room for the inferior angle to move to the spine. There are lots of muscles involved to move the shoulder and provide it with stability. I would not get hung up on the specific muscles. I would suggest focusing on the motion of continuing along the line of the shot to finish and let the muscles take care of themselves. If you are talking about finishing with scapular depression as I have suggested, you can't have shifted the shoulder down too much to start with. Note many shooters that actually raise the draw elbow when they set up just before moving through the shot. I believe that this facilitates the ability to complete the shot with true expansion, giving a small amount of room to rotate the scapula down. If you want more detail on what muscles do what I have a collection of videos from a number of web sites that I can point you to on my web site. Just email me. Again, buyer beware...thinking about the muscles can be a bad place to go for lots of people. I firmly believe that we need to be simplifying the problem and the body figures out the coordination if we tell it what to do in terms of a motion goal. What is important is to have at least a little room to move to finish the shot. I see some people set up with lots of back tension too soon and end up with...lots of back tension...


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I am talking about the push back as much as possible once at full draw and ready to shoot. To make it more clear, imagine "push back as much as possible" as in Brady's stance at full draw. From that stance, he still gets enough expansion to activate the clicker by "doing nothing" according to his own words. I asked what are these muscles that activated through holding your breath are contracting (the single way to get increase of the mass) and make the archer to get through clicker.
I agree with you: the archer shouldn't think muscle activation but movement. Maybe that's the reason why the archer was not told what muscles and what are they doing when the swordsman is blocking/parrying in the wonderland LAN2 but were told to move that area.
I would definitely like to read the links you gathered - I will email you. Thank you.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Sent you the link in a PM


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