# Stabilizer objectivity/ voodoo sticks.



## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Why isn't there a standard measurement for stabilizer stiffness? Why does it seem impossible to find information on stabilizer weights per inch? Now I know stating the GPI of a stabilizer isn't exactly correct because each manufacture has differing amounts of weight at the attachment ends where they have end caps and such, but it seems that there ought to be a "spine" and weight at each weight given so shooters can decide which stabilizer is stiff enough for the weight they are shooting. 

I am facing some shoulder issues which are most apparent at full draw. So I have considered getting longer bars or adding extensions to my current setup and taking off some of the mass weight to try to ease the discomfort.....and that's when I realized I can't find much objective information on stabilizers.
Here seems to be the only hard fast rules: Get the weight away from the bow and stiffer is better for arrow launch. I already shoot a 33" carbon blade with only 3 ounces on the front and a 12" back bar with 6 ounces, so I am not running much weight, but I just can't run much more without adding more discomfort. So my thought was that I might get a 40" stabilizer and perhaps run a 15-18 off the back and drop some weight but since I can't determine where my current stabilizers fall into the mix of other manufactures models when comparing weight and stiffness I got frustrated. I would like to get as stiff as a bar as is available but not at the expense of a ton of weight. If I knew my stabilizers fell onto the light side (which I doubt they do). I might just buy extensions. Or if the Carbon Blade Es was lighter as well as stiffer I might go that route because I already have a lot of those insanely expensive weights to experiment with. Urgh! 

So does anyone know who makes the stiffest and lightest stabilizer?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

because there's no standard of stiffness in any series of tubes produced, that would be used as the body of a stabilizer. arrow shafts are a pretty specific niche and there fore they warrant the given standards because they are very seldom used for something other than arrows. the various carbon and aluminum tubes in the diameters used for stabs, are also used for many other applications, and are so diverse in spec that you choose the tube you use, by it's structural specs rather than deflection values.


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

That makes sense, but why hasn't there been a push to make stabilizer deflections known? If even one manufacture gave a deflection value on a fixed span with a fixed weight I would expect all the "voodoo" to slowly start to disappear. I just weighted my standard carbon blade without any attachments and I got 6.7 ounces (cheap kitchen scale). Does anyone have a weight on the ES model?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I don't think the 'blades are particularly light by any means. With that much mass on the front almost anything would be stiff enough. Have you considered some of the really lightweight ones from Bernies? Not the most glamorous but who cares when it's a question of function....

-Grant


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Thanks Grant, I hadn't looked at their products, but that dragon XL in a 35" with a 16" back bar looks tempting. That's got to be half the weight of my current bars. It sounds like it could easily save 6-8 ounces which could be placed on the ends! Anyone else have any other alternatives?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there's really no need to develop a set of standards for stab deflection,....the stiffer the body the better, plain and simple. weight of the body of the stab is the primary concern. the lighter the better, providing stiffness isn't compromised in providing the light weight. rating a stab's body by some deflection value only serves to cancel the advantages of the functional value of the stab. a particularly flexible stab, would only work with a minimum of weight at the end, because at some point the weight becomes a source of secondary movement, which is completely inverse of a stab's function. as you look at the diameters of stabilizer development, diameters have increased because it is a known and established rule that increased diameter allows thinner wall sections. as tubes got bigger I diameter, they have also been made with thinner walls, the savings in weight from thinner walls, out offset the gains in weight from increased material due to larger diameters. the result is a stiff, light tube that is functionally ideal for stabilizer. the lighter the weight of the body of a stabilizer, the more effective it's length becomes in resisting movement, when weight is added to the free end. if the tubes gets to be too light, flex, generated by the end weight's reaction to initial movement, becomes a source of secondary movement and the sight picture becomes a never ending, or very slowly dissipating wobble, never fully absorbed by the weight.
the ideal condition is that initial movement is efficiently transferred to the weight, which resists the movement through the tube's stiffness, thus cancelling the input and it's reaction is as minimal as possible, so as to not produce a secondary input generating more movement.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

When you say Shoulder ... Discomfort, do you mean pain or just doesn't feel right?

First, are you shooting with your bow shoulder up or down? 

Second, if the discomfort occurs due to weight then going to a long stabilizer with less weight may not help.

Lite Hawks or Falcons by Bernie are about as light as they get.

What bow are you shooting? How much does the rig weigh? You might need to look at lightening the entire set up.

I have a student that shoots recurve. Her shoulders pop out if we have too much weight on the bow (her bow was already fairly light). We went to a 100% carbon fiber riser, lighter limbs, light stabilizers with 3 oz forward and 1 on each of the side bars. Carbon fiber v bar, etc. Pain gone, stability went way up (because she wasn't in pain), scores went up immediately.


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Pain. I did something stupid with my shoulders..cough (crossfit). And now shooting is painful to a degree. I agree that I may need to lower the weight of the entire rig which is my intention. I haven't experimented much yet with also lowering my draw because I hate to lose the holding weight and speed. I am shooting a 2013 Prime one. Axcel achieve harmonic 6"bar. 33" front blade with 3 OZ. 12" back blade with 6 OZ. I don't know my current total weight. For my preferences it seems the next logical step would be a DST 40 with Bernies stabs. I always somewhat want to add a bunch of weight to the bow just because I come from a more firearm background and it stands to reason that if it were possible to hold a 20lb bow steady the arrow launch would be much more stable and efficient. I tried running a super heavy setup earlier in the year, total rig weight was about 10 pounds and bow was balanced beautifully. For about 2-5 shots the bow was amazing. Felt great, super soft shooting. Pin sat super stable. Then my arm would weaken and I would get the death shakes and pain. But if I was super strong I would certainly put as much weight on the bow as I could handle because I loved how it felt. But I have shot quite a bit over the last couple days and really focusing on holding my shoulder down has helped a tiny bit. So maybe I just need to determine some physical therapy to help rebuild strength in my shoulder capsules.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Take a look at steveinarizona stabilizers. I think he gives the weight of the tubes and the weight of the end pieces. Maybe he can answer some of your questions.

I made a 30" stabilizer out of a carbon driver golf club. It could not be as stiff as the larger carbon tubes but it settles down very quickly even with 9 ounces on its tip. I have heard that a very stiff stabilizer is the best but I am not sure just how stiff they need to be.

A stabilizer with little weight becomes a sail in the wind.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Khaslem said:


> Thanks Grant, I hadn't looked at their products, but that dragon XL in a 35" with a 16" back bar looks tempting. That's got to be half the weight of my current bars. It sounds like it could easily save 6-8 ounces which could be placed on the ends! Anyone else have any other alternatives?


Don't do it. Lots of alternatives to that. Most all of them better alternatives. 

If weight is an issue go with a shorter bar. Think about it, if you go longer with less weight the weight has much more leverage on your body on a 35" bar than a 30," therefore the effects on your shoulder will be basically the same. I'd definitely go with a more compact system in your case, especially since you stated the problem was at full draw. 

With regard to brand, pick one with great customer service that when (not if) you decide to try something new you won't take a bath on resale. For one of the most helpful examples of that contact "Carbofastdirect" here on AT. The owner is very helpful and you won't get the voodoo you mentioned. Good luck.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

" a stabilizer with little weight becomes a sail in the wind"........exactly and the reason Blades are a little heavier than stabs of similar length. their airfoil section profile, is purposely designed that way, to be used in the wind.


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## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> Don't do it. Lots of alternatives to that. Most all of them better alternatives.
> 
> If weight is an issue go with a shorter bar. Think about it, if you go longer with less weight the weight has much more leverage on your body on a 35" bar than a 30," therefore the effects on your shoulder will be basically the same. I'd definitely go with a more compact system in your case, especially since you stated the problem was at full draw.
> 
> With regard to brand, pick one with great customer service that when (not if) you decide to try something new you won't take a bath on resale. For one of the most helpful examples of that contact "Carbofastdirect" here on AT. The owner is very helpful and you won't get the voodoo you mentioned. Good luck.



Thanks for the plug Lazarus! We appreciate it a lot

To answer some of khaslem questions
I agree a stiffness rating is a great idea but where it gets difficult is that our Black X rods have zoned stiffness. So do you measure it at its stiffest point or over the full length. If over the full length the stiffness rating would change as the length shortens.
to do a rating a standard would have to be set, say a stiffness rating over a 30" length.

We are currently testing 2 new rods that are narrower in diameter one is 13mm diameter and the other is 16 mm. The 16mm at 30" weights in at only 4.5oz and would be stiffer than the blade type rods.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I have a sneaking suspicion of why there are no standards and that is because nobody promotes one. If they did, everyone would jump on board. Bee Stinger were promoting that their stabilisers were the stiffest in the world when they first started up. I asked how they were checking it and they were using 16 inch spans and measuring the deflection after hanging a certain poundage across it which I think was 70lb. Unfortunately, that thread is gone because of the Archery-Forum Crash. I can't remember the exact poundage..
However, I found the photos that I took to compare my custom made stabiliser against their test to see how it stacked up.

Being as I only had kilogram weights, I had to try and make up the equivalent or close to it. 

This first photo shows the stabiliser between 16 inch centers with 35 kg on it which is 77 lb. 










This next photo is along side. There is nothing poking down past the edge of the ruler. Essentially, it's not bending enough. 










So I figured that the only way to make it flex enough was to support it out near the ends which ended up being 35 inches. Any more and it fell off the bench.
Then I hung the two 20kg weights of it to see if it would break. That's 88lb. 

It did flex a bit then.









I think it was under half an inch which is 12mm. I think maybe 10mm? 

I weigh 89kg (196lb) and I can sit on it supported only at the ends and it bends, but hasn't broken yet. 

So being as it's 16mm carbon with 2.5mm walls, it's pretty stiff. 

It has a Bass Guitar string stretched down the middle to act as an internal dampener. The string is wound with yarn every two inches to help dampen movement. 
It works pretty well, however, it's not the final answer. 

It slowly destroys quick release fittings and now has a steel washer between rod and fitting. The matching side rods ring like a bell without rubber dampeners on the ends and it acts very similar to a tuning rod. 










Once these pictures went up, the Bee Stinger guy stopped posting. They've possibly caught up by now. I've had it for about five years. 

The company who makes the tube found the entire thing amusing and offered to make me aerospace quality carbon tubing if ever I needed to up the ante. 

My suggestion is that making stuff is fun and going overboard is hilarious, but a super stiff rod is unlikely to solve things if you have a shoulder injury. Just go for as long as you can handle, with the least weight possible so that the bow doesn't get heavy, but the torque resistance is maximised. 

I have an experimental stabiliser made out of a Manfrotto 679b Monopod. It weighs very little, but can extend to 62 inches. With no weight on it at all, it has a feeling like no other, but hardly adds a pound to the bow. Extra weight on it will be ludicrous. 
It's only designed to house the laser for measuring stabiliser wobble to see if there is an optimum length for a specific archer. 

After shooting it and having always had a stupidly stiff stabiliser, I'd recommend keeping your shoulders intact as a first consideration.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Not to take away the point of the thread. Have you seen a doctor? Physical Therapy?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

one way of gaining stiffness without adding weight, is to produce a tube that has it's walls in a taper throughout it's length. it puts the tube more directly in tension and compression than a parallel walled tube. tubes flex by going out of round under pressure. to some degree, all this "special shape" stuff is somewhat over kill. there are readily available carbon tubes that are more than sufficient to resist flex in the amounts seen in typical use as an archery stabilizer, already manufactured. 
i'm all for the application of technology being at it's most current and highest state, but when it becomes more expensive , just for the sake of the "latest state of the art application", it becomes senseless expense that stagnates archery spread and development of popularity......ie,..... " archery is a great spot, but t's getting way to expensive to have the latest and greatest equipment". 
I think we are not far from that threshold, right now, in many areas.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Adding to Carbofastdirect's post,
If you are going to measure the stiffness of a stabilizer (not an arrow) It should probably be done with the bow end supported, and measure defection tip the tip with a certain amount of weight.
The standard would have to put similar length stabs up against each other. a 24" stab would be MUCH stiffer than a 36" stab of the same design.
A stabilizer that is stiffer near the riser and less stiff at the tip could perform better on a bow than a stabilizer that had uniform stiffness throughout it's entire length if measured the same way we measure arrows for spine. Measuring it that way, the "tapered" stiffness shaft would not be measured "fairly".


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Golf club shafts have several zones of stiffness, so do fishing rods so a precedent of how to measure a stab's stiffness has already been set.

ron, what two sides of a round tube are parallel?

I'm of the opinion that the OP should see an orthopedic surgeon for a diagnosis.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

where did I say "two sides" ?. I just went back and re-read my posts quickely and never saw any mention of "two sides". maybe I missed it, but I don't think i'd be inclined to consider the walls of a tube as "sides". one might consider the layterm "sides" if discussing a tube "in section" but I never discussed that in respect to a stabilizer being a tube. 
so I guess I don't understand where your question comes from , or why you would suggest I called the walls of a tube "sides". for any other reason than to question what I said in a sarcastic tone that suggest I might not know what i'm talking about.
there's a lot of that on this site.


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## wisemaj (Feb 27, 2007)

Rick,

Just to clarify, I think Ron's reference to parallel sides was in distinction between a straight-walled tube with parallel sides (inside and outside) and a tapered tube with sides that are not parallel.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Used the Search function. ron didn't say "two sides" anywhere.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Agree about the expense of stabs and other accessories pushing the limit. ROI not there as far as I am concerned. Not sure how many points we can buy.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Front stabilizers....I half scared to buy a long stab after seeing some that flexed so hard it's shake the bow and the arm of shooter, but some where trying to use stabs held over from old recurves and Olympic type bows.

My first long stabilizer, that I still have, is a 30" Cartel I bought almost 15 years ago and pretty state of the art for what it was. It still works great, but limited to how much weight you can add. Screwed a bunch weights together and around 5 or more ounces it began to bounce some, not bad, but more than I wanted. 
Then a few years back the Boss of the archery shop I worked at bought 3 new Cartels, 24". I tried one. Liked to flopped my arm off! Tried another and the same thing. The third turned out to be pretty stiff. So 2 went back and the boss never ordered any more.

A couple years ago I picked up a near new Doinker 30" Fatty Supreme. It was stiff, but it was also so heavy it turned my bow darn near upside down and no weights on it. Sold it.....

Late last year I broke down and bought a complete set of Bee Stingers, 30" front, two 12" back bars and a bunch of Stinger weights. So far they have proved great. I forget the whole amount, but for over $300 they should be great.


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the helpful comments. I can certainly see some additional complexities to measuring the stiffness of stabilizers. I guess I am just frustrated at the lack of information I can find, distinctly on FUSE blades. 
As to my specific problem I am sure those who suggested doctor interventions are correct and as soon as I can justify it ( pain at any other time than archery) I will be forced to address the problem. And perhaps I will focus more of my training for a while on really keeping my shoulder down. It could just be that I am not noticing how high it creeps and it pushes the joint out just enough to be straining muscles trying to stay rigid. I don't want to overlook the Indian in the equation. 
As for stabilizers I will certainly consider some of the options listed if and when I get ready to setup a new bow. But I don't think I will change until I really can make a notable difference, say by going to a lighter bow AND stabilizers so I can test the difference when it's more than a couple ounces. And with indoor season quickly approaching I may just lower my bow weight down a lot and see if that doesn't offer at least some degree of pain decrease. Thanks again for all the helpful advice and input.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

For me laying off to heal the shoulder worked then ensuring front shoulder is down reduced recurrence of pain letting the bow arm creep up brings pain with it. IMHO.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

"front (bow) shoulder down",...... the majority of injuries come from this one aspect. pulling that front shoulder down sets the entire arm up for the stability needed to support weight at the end of an extended arm, by using the musculature to support the weight instead of the ligaments.


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Update on some testing. I have added extensions to my carbon blades and reduced the weights. Bingo, shoulder discomfort helped and shooting improved. I currently have 43" out the front and 17 out the back. Setup is light and aims great. It obviously doesn't "float" like a setup with huge amounts of weights, but with a slight bit more actual aiming and follow through I am shooting much better than before. Small corrections in aiming are much easier as I don't have to move as much mass to get my pin back on target. I think the next step in my experimentation will be to get some super light stabilizers and couple them together so I can run ~45" out the front and 20" out the back. This setup probably isn't ideal for outdoor season since the wind could lay waste to me I believe, but for indoor it might well be the best choice. Why not have as much stabilizer as possible?


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