# IBO Speed Limit



## SlickNickel (Jul 14, 2014)

I know this topic has probably been discussed, but in a quick search I was unable to find any threads about it (I'm new here). I would like to see the IBO put a speed limit into effect next year. I think that it puts everyone on a level playing field as far as equipment goes. I'm not one to whine about someone having an advantage, but I've talked to several people at shoots, and other people whom I am trying to get to try these IBO shoots, and that seems to be a pretty common complaint. I would be all for it myself, how about you? Discuss.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I doubt that you'll see it. The Speed bows feed those addicted to speed and the IBO has been letting the speed bows reign supreme for a long, long time.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

I'm not to sure that is a good idea, besides everyone that out shoots me is shooting slower. Speed helps in 3D, it will get you a 10 or 11 when a slow arrow might now. But you still have to know the yards, and hit the spot. Most open shooters I know are around 300 fps, they could be shooting much faster but shoot better where they are. I would say it's not needed.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

For people who don't go to the shoots it's just another excuse why they don't. 
A speed limit helps to some extent, but it does not level the playing field. A shooter with a long draw length still has an advantage. They can shoot a heavier arrow or shoot a more forgiving bow to meet the speed limit where someone with a short draw cannot. Yes, it is better than having one person shooting 340 and another shooting 275, but there is more to it than simple speed. From what I have seen, it is mostly an excuse for some why they don't shoot, and for others why they didn't win. Neither is valid to me. JMO.


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## WVaBuckHunter (Sep 30, 2010)

darton3d said:


> For people who don't go to the shoots it's just another excuse why they don't.
> A speed limit helps to some extent, but it does not level the playing field. A shooter with a long draw length still has an advantage. They can shoot a heavier arrow or shoot a more forgiving bow to meet the speed limit where someone with a short draw cannot. Yes, it is better than having one person shooting 340 and another shooting 275, but there is more to it than simple speed. From what I have seen, it is mostly an excuse for some why they don't shoot, and for others why they didn't win. Neither is valid to me. JMO.


I'll agree that some people just look for excuses, but I disagree on some other points. I think that a speed limit would be a good rule for IBO to look into.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

And a few women in our club (400+ families) shoot 250 FPS and can out shoot the majority here. They are sponsored shooters for your info.

That said:

Our club has insurance as all clubs should.
The Insurance Company demands a 300 FPS limit.

It has NOTHING to do with IBO.
The board of directors ENFORCE it because (God Forbid) if an injury is filed and the bow is tested to be over 300.. Insurance canceled. Club closed.

Joe Bell, Randy Ulmer, Chuck Adams and most experienced bow hunters keep their Broad Head tipped arrows at between 270-280 FPS because of the erratic flight of BH's at over that speed.

I shoot 288 which is a bit high. My bow is capable of shooting 315 at my draw length but I ask...

WHY?


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

darton3d said:


> For people who don't go to the shoots it's just another excuse why they don't.
> A speed limit helps to some extent, but it does not level the playing field. A shooter with a long draw length still has an advantage. They can shoot a heavier arrow or shoot a more forgiving bow to meet the speed limit where someone with a short draw cannot. Yes, it is better than having one person shooting 340 and another shooting 275, but there is more to it than simple speed. From what I have seen, it is mostly an excuse for some why they don't shoot, and for others why they didn't win. Neither is valid to me. JMO.



Agree 100 %


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Our club has insurance as all clubs should.
> The Insurance Company demands a 300 FPS limit


Are you talking for 3D shoots or hunting on club grounds or what? If it's for 3D what does that have to do with 3D shoots. The groups I shoot with no one is under 300fps. If a club imposed that for 3D shoots I would say let the club close, I would not go there.


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## osagebender (Feb 24, 2013)

Maybe we should all have to shoot the same bow and sights and everything else should be the same. And the government should supply us all bows so we can all be the same, and if you work hard and post a better score they should take points away and give them to the less fortunate that cant shoot. The B in IBO I thought stands for bowhunting. I hunt with the same bow I shoot in 3d, sooo your telling me I cant use it in 3d because you think its to fast. This is a great sport! Lets all just have fun and strive to get better. Someone will always have something you don't, faster bow, more time to practice or more money for equipment.


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## SlickNickel (Jul 14, 2014)

osagebender said:


> Maybe we should all have to shoot the same bow and sights and everything else should be the same. And the government should supply us all bows so we can all be the same, and if you work hard and post a better score they should take points away and give them to the less fortunate that cant shoot. The B in IBO I thought stands for bowhunting. I hunt with the same bow I shoot in 3d, sooo your telling me I cant use it in 3d because you think its to fast. This is a great sport! Lets all just have fun and strive to get better. Someone will always have something you don't, faster bow, more time to practice or more money for equipment.


ASA has speed limits, and I think that they are continuing to grow, where the IBO is losing ground. Speed limits aren't the only reason for that, but the ASA seems to be thriving even with their speed limits. I said in my OP that I wasn't one to whine about someone having an advantage, as I believe that either you can shoot/judge yardage or you can't. I believe that equipment is a micro piece of success or failure. I just think that more people might give the IBO a shot if they felt like they are on a more level playing field. I don't know about you guys, but I would like to see more people in the sport. Someone shooting 345 fps doesn't have to be as good at judging yardage as someone shooting 280 fps. That speed takes away part of the game, which is judging yardage (this is especially true in the lower classes such as Hunter and Advanced Hunter). I don't see anything wrong with making everyone judge yardage.


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## deer down (Feb 23, 2007)

I shoot 306 fps. Not fast by any means. And you will see that most of your winners aren't shooting smoking fast speed. It's something made up in people's minds that is why they aren't as competitive as they think they should be. Levi cleaned house for years with a bow shooting under 290. Spend more time judging a targets and less worrying about 10-15 fps


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

threetoe said:


> The Insurance Company demands a 300 FPS limit.
> It has NOTHING to do with IBO.
> The board of directors ENFORCE it because (God Forbid) if an injury is filed and the bow is tested to be over 300.. Insurance canceled. Club closed.


What insurance company so we can write it off as one not to go to......

I've shot at 30 or more different clubs over the years and not one has had a speed limit imposed. ASA has 280 and 290 fps and the NFAA has 300 fps and neither require enforcement of their speed limits. Got a bow cranking 350 fps, bring to our 3Ds. We won't stop you from shooting....


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

Who cares! The guys winning consistently are around 300. Level playing field what a joke!


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

SlickNickel said:


> ASA has speed limits, and I think that they are continuing to grow, where the IBO is losing ground. Speed limits aren't the only reason for that, but the ASA seems to be thriving even with their speed limits. I said in my OP that I wasn't one to whine about someone having an advantage, as I believe that either you can shoot/judge yardage or you can't. I believe that equipment is a micro piece of success or failure. I just think that more people might give the IBO a shot if they felt like they are on a more level playing field. I don't know about you guys, but I would like to see more people in the sport. Someone shooting 345 fps doesn't have to be as good at judging yardage as someone shooting 280 fps. That speed takes away part of the game, which is judging yardage (this is especially true in the lower classes such as Hunter and Advanced Hunter). I don't see anything wrong with making everyone judge yardage.


I'm 99.99% positive the speed limits are not why the ASA is seeing growth and the IBO is stalemate at best.


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## math1963 (Apr 9, 2014)

SlickNickel said:


> ASA has speed limits, and I think that they are continuing to grow, where the IBO is losing ground. Speed limits aren't the only reason for that, but the ASA seems to be thriving even with their speed limits. I said in my OP that I wasn't one to whine about someone having an advantage, as I believe that either you can shoot/judge yardage or you can't. I believe that equipment is a micro piece of success or failure. I just think that more people might give the IBO a shot if they felt like they are on a more level playing field. I don't know about you guys, but I would like to see more people in the sport. Someone shooting 345 fps doesn't have to be as good at judging yardage as someone shooting 280 fps. That speed takes away part of the game, which is judging yardage (this is especially true in the lower classes such as Hunter and Advanced Hunter). I don't see anything wrong with making everyone judge yardage.


+1

I also shoot ASA Senior Hunter Class and my bow/arrows meet the 280 fps speed limit. But, when I'm shooting a local club shoot the speed limit is not enforced. At 280 fps I need three pins (22,33,40) however, another shooter is clocking at 315 and has two pins. One pin for 0-30 and the other for 40. The gaps between the pins is very small. He has a larger margin of error when judging yardage.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

IBO will never do this they count on 2 things to get and hold onto their attendance 

1. No speed limit
2. No shotgun starts

If either of these would be implemented they would take a loss in attendance they couldn't afford..


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I don't think you'll see it because most of the top guys aren't shooting much over 310. I know the top 5 in ahc were around that and I won hc last year at 308. Had 6# to spare I'm around 4# to spare this year at 311 fps. Bows get too critical to shoot when you push them that fast and you have to shoot alot of 11's to win or even get near the top. I'm not against the idea though.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

SlickNickel said:


> ASA has speed limits, and I think that they are continuing to grow, where the IBO is losing ground. Speed limits aren't the only reason for that, but the ASA seems to be thriving even with their speed limits. I said in my OP that I wasn't one to whine about someone having an advantage, as I believe that either you can shoot/judge yardage or you can't. I believe that equipment is a micro piece of success or failure. I just think that more people might give the IBO a shot if they felt like they are on a more level playing field. I don't know about you guys, but I would like to see more people in the sport. Someone shooting 345 fps doesn't have to be as good at judging yardage as someone shooting 280 fps. That speed takes away part of the game, which is judging yardage (this is especially true in the lower classes such as Hunter and Advanced Hunter). I don't see anything wrong with making everyone judge yardage.


Do you get more people by leveling the playing field or do you get more with guys that don't want to judge and feel they can shoot a fast bow and not have to judge.


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## Zixer (Dec 1, 2013)

Speed as you all is NOT the end all do all in target archery. So why implement a speed limit and exclude some people from being able to participate in the sport? Sure they could buy heavier arrows or turn down the poundage but if that isnt how they intended to use their set up, then why force it on them?


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## math1963 (Apr 9, 2014)

Zixer said:


> Speed as you all is NOT the end all do all in target archery. So why implement a speed limit and exclude some people from being able to participate in the sport? Sure they could buy heavier arrows or turn down the poundage but if that isnt how they intended to use their set up, then why force it on them?


ASA 3D is a competitive sport and archers are required or asked to participate in the cash payout. This fact requires the sport to be fair as possible. An archer of better skills could only pull 50 lbs with a 26 inch draw then they are at a disadvantage of the archer pulling 70 lbs at 30 inches and shooting flat out to 30-35 yards. In a class where the max yardage is 40-45, it doesn't require as much skills in judging yardage with a fast bow. This is a game where the playing field needs to be leveled for all participants. Speed may not be an issue in known yardage classes but, in unknown yardage it is an issue of fairness. The ASA season ends in August giving all participants ample time to reconfigure their bows to any configuration they wish to have for the hunting season.


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## Zixer (Dec 1, 2013)

So you make the competition like NASCAR...limit some so its fair for all...next we just won't keep score and give everyone a blue ribbon....technology advances and changes...

So glad our club is just a "Run what you brung".


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## math1963 (Apr 9, 2014)

Not exactly. I grew up when you lost your little league game the coach told you how disappointed he was in four letter words and didn't start you the next game if you screwed up. Speed is one of several other rules imposed by the ASA by classes to insure that difference in equipment doesn't give someone an unfair advantage. Even within the rules you will see a wide variety of bows, arrows, sights, stabilizers, rest, etc. The competition should strive to reward the participants whose ability, knowledge, and skills allowed them to out-perform all others. We should not reward size, strength, or equipment. I placed second last weekend at our ASA state shoot in senior hunter class. The winner beat me fair and square by scoring higher, but not with a one or two pin sight.

NASCAR well, its not what it was once.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

SonnyThomas said:


> What insurance company so we can write it off as one not to go to......
> 
> I've shot at 30 or more different clubs over the years and not one has had a speed limit imposed. ASA has 280 and 290 fps and the NFAA has 300 fps and neither require enforcement of their speed limits. Got a bow cranking 350 fps, bring to our 3Ds. We won't stop you from shooting....


I'm not sure Sonny but I'll ask.
Remember I live in the Leftist/Liberal/Dumpocrap state of Kalifornia where litigation trumps logic and political correctness beats truth. I live in a state where one can sue a Ham Sandwich.

The club speed limit here is for EVERYTHING and the president LOVES playing speed cop and tossing out anyone who hits 310 or more. 300 FPS +/- 3%. He even chooses the arrow from your quiver because he thinks you will put in a "ringer" arrow to fool him. (a heavier arrow so the speed will be less)


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

It's a competition, it's not about being fair. This ain't T-Ball. 
Being able to shoot a fast bow accurately is a skill, why should some be denied that skill because others can't handle it. Judging yardage is a skill, so if some can't judge yardage as well does that mean all 3D shoots/classes should be known yardage? 
Where does the "make it fair" idea end?? Should everyone be required to shoot exactly the same speed, with the same diameter arrow that weighs exactly the same as everyone else? 
What about bows? Do we create some type of formula that calculates the forgiveness of bows and make sure everyone shoots a bow with the same "forgiveness factor"? 
Then all shoots should be held indoors so no one gets an advantage/disadvantage from changing lighting conditions or other weather factors. 
I am not opposed to a speed limit, depending on what it is. But I do not believe it "levels the playing field". There are many other factors that come into play in archery, including equipment. You cannot make archery "fair", some will always be at a disadvantage. If you want fair competition, maybe you should try checkers.


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## WVaBuckHunter (Sep 30, 2010)

stoz said:


> Do you get more people by leveling the playing field or do you get more with guys that don't want to judge and feel they can shoot a fast bow and not have to judge.





Zixer said:


> Speed as you all is NOT the end all do all in target archery. So why implement a speed limit and exclude some people from being able to participate in the sport? Sure they could buy heavier arrows or turn down the poundage but if that isnt how they intended to use their set up, then why force it on them?





darton3d said:


> It's a competition, it's not about being fair. This ain't T-Ball.
> Being able to shoot a fast bow accurately is a skill, why should some be denied that skill because others can't handle it. Judging yardage is a skill, so if some can't judge yardage as well does that mean all 3D shoots/classes should be known yardage?
> Where does the "make it fair" idea end?? Should everyone be required to shoot exactly the same speed, with the same diameter arrow that weighs exactly the same as everyone else?
> What about bows? Do we create some type of formula that calculates the forgiveness of bows and make sure everyone shoots a bow with the same "forgiveness factor"?
> ...


Good points, I can see both sides of this. The thing is though, you can't make everyone happy, unless you have a ton of different classes. Then the classes become smaller and you win the worlds by beating the other 5 people in your class. Not as much of an accomplishment to me.


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## [email protected] (May 10, 2012)

Everyone likes different things and has different ideas. 
This is what I would like to see. 

1. Speed limit
2. Known yardage
3. Shotgun start with busted groups. 
4. Judges
5. Reduce classes. (Beginner or advanced pins and open for each age group and gender. Semi pro and pro respectively.)
6. Mandatory move up. You pay to play and move up when you win enough $. 

The most frustrating thing about 3D to me, is that there is no standard in scoring. 
I have been to one ASA tournament and shot with different people each day. The first day,
there was a common sense approach to scoring. Nobody took any points from anyone but
Scored fairly IMO. 
Day two was a different story. One target was shot up pretty bad and you couldn't tell where
the lower 12 was at all. One shooter's arrow was about 3" from where the 12 would have been. 
The height was good but his arrow was directly under the upper 12 and left of the IBO 11. 
The majority called it a 12 and scored targets that way for the remainder of the shoot. 
I've seen buddies shooting together in the IBO and there is no attempt to make their shoots fair. 
I've read about people using range finders to cheat and targets posted on FB for people to see the next day. 
It's hard to spend the time and money to travel when there are no standards. 

If I had the resources, I would try an organization with these ideas as the foundation. 
There would be 4 triple crowns in different regions of the U.S. and have a championship
In middle America.
I can dream. 
Craig


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I think a common misconception here is looking at the guys who are winning. Winners are gonna win, it is what it is. Say 12 classes you have 12 winners, what do you do for the other thousand SHOOTERS at your tournament? Not listen to them and your organization stalemates. The asa is gaining ground because they accept that they MUST evolve and change with the sport by listening and understanding their shooters, from the common bow novice to your paid pros. This is why you have move out rules in EVERY class, cater to your shooters and challenge your winners. Speed limits are a grand idea, we shot with them years ago when the ibo was 280+3 percent. For modern technology that speed has fallen by the wayside, hence why the ASA jumped many classes to 290+ 3 percent. Evolve with the sport. I think a speed limit is a great way to level the playing field (For EVERYONE from first to last place) but for IBO to set itself apart, why could they not make that speed limit 305 +3 percent (or whatever to absolutley cap at 310). Allowing a free for all in any aspect of the game, from random starts and self made groups to unlimited speed is unprofessional practice. Not to keep beating the world over the head with the ASA, but shooting at their tournys is such a professional feeling atmosphere all the time that I actually feel more validated in what I am doing there, like what i am Shooting means something and is a real stepping stone to my own goals. This is why so far i have driven from Canada right past the IBO grounds to ASA country.


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## 323 (Feb 26, 2006)

Majority of the local clubs don't have a speed rule. Anyhow if they did I would stop shooting their. When I first started shooting they had the unlimited class (fixed pin, release, less than 12 inch stabilizer) but now ****! We have hunter class known yardage hunter unknown yardage. I remember when hunter class got it's starts. Heck do they even have a unlimited class anymore? Anyhow we do not need anymore changes.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

The question seams to be fair or unfair. That seams to be the main issue with society as whole these days. Life is unfair. Why is it necessary for people who feel that more rules or laws need to be made just to make it more fair for them. 

I have an idea... How about being happy with who you are, what your doing, and just enjoy the freedom of CHOICE!

Don't Tread on Me!


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Speed limits are great. They do level the field in a sense.
Speed is a crutch for those who cant judge. (Imo Of course )

Everyone shoots 280fps in a class...it shows whos the better all around shooter, not who has the fastest bow.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Topper1018 said:


> I think a common misconception here is looking at the guys who are winning. Winners are gonna win, it is what it is. Say 12 classes you have 12 winners, what do you do for the other thousand SHOOTERS at your tournament? Not listen to them and your organization stalemates. The asa is gaining ground because they accept that they MUST evolve and change with the sport by listening and understanding their shooters, from the common bow novice to your paid pros. This is why you have move out rules in EVERY class, cater to your shooters and challenge your winners. Speed limits are a grand idea, we shot with them years ago when the ibo was 280+3 percent. For modern technology that speed has fallen by the wayside, hence why the ASA jumped many classes to 290+ 3 percent. Evolve with the sport. I think a speed limit is a great way to level the playing field (For EVERYONE from first to last place) but for IBO to set itself apart, why could they not make that speed limit 305 +3 percent (or whatever to absolutley cap at 310). Allowing a free for all in any aspect of the game, from random starts and self made groups to unlimited speed is unprofessional practice. Not to keep beating the world over the head with the ASA, but shooting at their tournys is such a professional feeling atmosphere all the time that I actually feel more validated in what I am doing there, like what i am Shooting means something and is a real stepping stone to my own goals. This is why so far i have driven from Canada right past the IBO grounds to ASA country.



Well said Eric and agree in every way!


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

BowHuntnKY said:


> Speed limits are great. They do level the field in a sense.
> Speed is a crutch for those who cant judge. (Imo Of course )
> 
> Everyone shoots 280fps in a class...it shows whos the better all around shooter, not who has the fastest bow.


I would agree with that statement so stay with your ASA group and leave your rules there. I would bet that you are a big fan of restricter plates in Nascar?


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

BowHuntnKY said:


> Speed limits are great. They do level the field in a sense.
> Speed is a crutch for those who cant judge. (Imo Of course )
> 
> Everyone shoots 280fps in a class...it shows whos the better all around shooter, not who has the fastest bow.


Some would say conversly that speed limits are a crutch for those who are not good enough to handle a fast bow. So if a person can shoot more accurately with a fast bow that makes them the better shooter. There are two sides to every coin. I think it is good that we have two organizations with different rules. That way there is something for everyone. I like both and the different challenges they present.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

BowhunterJT said:


> I would agree with that statement so stay with your ASA group and leave your rules there. I would bet that you are a big fan of restricter plates in Nascar?


Real cars race on dirt :wink: 
Restricter plates I thought were implemented for safety...but I have no clue youll find me on a 3d course on sundays



darton3d said:


> Some would say conversly that speed limits are a crutch for those who are not good enough to handle a fast bow. So if a person can shoot more accurately with a fast bow that makes them the better shooter. There are two sides to every coin..


 Cant handle a fast bow? I think u could say the guy that can shoot the slow bow very well...should be EVEN BETTER with a faster bow lol


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

News flash........the IBO is their own worst enemy. My advice is to quit wasting your time talking or posting about what you would like to see the IBO do. The IBO does not care about people that spend their hard earned money coming to their events. You would probably be better served if you walked outside and found some nice tree and talked to it about what you as a shooter would like to see from the IBO. You are more likely to get a response from the tree as you would be from the IBO.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Here's my take. You want to play game, then play by the rules. Don't like the rules, then don't play the game.

Want to change rules, then do so through proper means. A petition put up at a IBO event would be a good start, not whining here on AT...


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Here's my take. You want to play game, then play by the rules. Don't like the rules, then don't play the game.
> 
> Want to change rules, then do so through proper means. A petition put up at a IBO event would be a good start, not whining here on AT...



I'm not whining just stating the facts Sonny. A Petition???? You're joking right??? I have been playing the game since 1994, NFAA, IBO, ASA, NABH you name it. I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that the archery organizations are not going to satisfy everybody. With that being said some organizations have a better customer service dept. than do others.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

IRISH_11 said:


> I'm not whining just stating the facts Sonny. A Petition???? You're joking right??? I have been playing the game since 1994, NFAA, IBO, ASA, NABH you name it. I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that the archery organizations are not going to satisfy everybody. With that being said some organizations have a better customer service dept. than do others.


I believe a few of us were the first to challenge the GT 60X arrow, right to the point some ranges and clubs were going to refuse to host NFAA events if the 60X were allowed to continue. The 60X died. My opinion, enough people on a petition and someone is going to look. It might bring about a new class. Who knows?


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