# Serious Problems with the DEFIANTS?



## Honolua (Jun 6, 2013)

Just wondering if anyone has heard of Hoyt having serious issues with the Defiant line?


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Honolua said:


> Just wondering if anyone has heard of Hoyt having serious issues with the Defiant line?


There seems to be a big problem with the carbon Defiant line especially the 34.


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## Smokinjo (Jan 14, 2016)

Curious to know what the problem is. I have no issues with my Carbon defiant 30.


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

Like to know to


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## cc122368 (May 30, 2010)

Yeah like what problem?


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## KMiha (Jan 8, 2015)

Nick728 said:


> There seems to be a big problem with the carbon Defiant line especially the 34.


Trolling?


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## EsteemGrinders (Aug 8, 2015)

Like the same problems that have ten or more threads already made about. Its vertical nock travel causing many users tuning troubles with nock high tears. I personally know that every #2 cam defiant we have tried at the shop will not paper tune or broadhead tune. I know some guys one here say they have no problems but I just do not see how this is possible with the amount of problems we have had. We have also had trouble with Hyper Edge and PowerMax not as much with the Power Max though. Hoyt dropped the ball this time around. Its pretty hard to recommend them to customers do to the problems that have come up.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

My #1 hyperedge both bareshaft tuned and broadhead tuned.


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## scepterman30x (Oct 22, 2007)

I have a defiant turbo and Hyper Edge and I'm having problems with it...I can't seem to keep from busting Knocks.


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## Firefighter44 (Dec 17, 2015)

I have had no issues with my defiant turbo, but I have the aluminum riser.


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## SparkyLB (Dec 27, 2015)

EsteemGrinders said:


> Like the same problems that have ten or more threads already made about. Its vertical nock travel causing many users tuning troubles with nock high tears. I personally know that every #2 cam defiant we have tried at the shop will not paper tune or broadhead tune. I know some guys one here say they have no problems but I just do not see how this is possible with the amount of problems we have had. We have also had trouble with Hyper Edge and PowerMax not as much with the Power Max though. Hoyt dropped the ball this time around. Its pretty hard to recommend them to customers do to the problems that have come up.


Really? Not trying to be a INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE, but please read the sentence above and tell me it's reasonable. So because you see "so many" problems at the shop that makes it impossible for everyone else at home to be trouble free? 

To the OP, seems that some folks (SOME) have issues with tuning. Some of these folks have #2 cams. 

Final answer. . no. I have not heard of "Hoyt having serious issues with the Defiant line." 

My Defiant 34 is a beast. 

I could be wrong, but this is an internet forum where people often come to find out about problems and solutions. The percentage of folks who post here compared to those who own bows we can only guess. What I guess, is when there is a time period where 2 folks have problems at the same time, it's taken out of context and not indicative of the whole population. When "brand X" has an issue according to AT; it may or may not be representative of the whole population of bow owners out there.


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## Captjock (Oct 16, 2009)

No problems here tuning 3 different Defiant 34's


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Captjock said:


> No problems here tuning 3 different Defiant 34's


Are they Carbon Defiant 34's or aluminium?


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

EsteemGrinders said:


> Like the same problems that have ten or more threads already made about. Its vertical nock travel causing many users tuning troubles with nock high tears. I personally know that every #2 cam defiant we have tried at the shop will not paper tune or broadhead tune. I know some guys one here say they have no problems but I just do not see how this is possible with the amount of problems we have had. We have also had trouble with Hyper Edge and PowerMax not as much with the Power Max though. Hoyt dropped the ball this time around. Its pretty hard to recommend them to customers do to the problems that have come up.


Stop tuning the 2016's as if it were all model years prior maybe? Its a different bow.


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

scepterman30x said:


> I have a defiant turbo and Hyper Edge and I'm having problems with it...I can't seem to keep from busting Knocks.


hahaha this! 

I let someone shoot my defiant today and he robin hooded an arrow... Yeah.. BIG problems tuning... LOL


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## Honolua (Jun 6, 2013)

I am not trolling. I am a huge Hoyt fan and in the last 3 years I have been real happy with 2 Carbon Elements, 1 Spyder, and LOVE my Nitrum Turbo. I heard that the issues were so bad that Hoyt May even be thinking of a Recall. The source of my info is unimpeachable.


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## jmack73 (Jan 17, 2013)

Honolua said:


> I am not trolling. I am a huge Hoyt fan and in the last 3 years I have been real happy with 2 Carbon Elements, 1 Spyder, and LOVE my Nitrum Turbo. I heard that the issues were so bad that Hoyt May even be thinking of a Recall. The source of my info is unimpeachable.


I haven't heard any of this and I work at a dealership..... I've had zero problems.


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

Rumor until someone posts facts. Threads like this should be deleted IMO. As for person who says "if I can't tune them nobody can"....get real.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

They don't tune nock high anymore. They tune dead level or possibly slightly nock low but so slight you can't tell with your eye. Some people just freak out because of this and that's a personal problem. Just because it is different does not make it a problem. Cam Hanes is shooting fixed heads with is #2 cam defiant....


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## OR Archer1 (Nov 8, 2007)

I've set up quite a few Defiants. Both carbon and aluminum. I have yet to have one I couldn't tune. There are slight differences in tuning these versus last years Nitrums. Takes a little bit of experimenting but once you figure them out its a pretty easy bow to tune.


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## Larry brown (Aug 17, 2013)

Mine is shooting bullet holes through paper and was a tad nock high with bareshafts so I adjusted and the level bubble was not even out of level just had a slight adjustment. Now it's bareshaft and paper tuning perfect. I shot out to 70 yesterday with a good cross wind and was consistently hitting where I aimed and the bow is DEAD in hand and as quite as a mouse fart.


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## Bossharley (Nov 12, 2011)

Honolua said:


> I am not trolling. I am a huge Hoyt fan and in the last 3 years I have been real happy with 2 Carbon Elements, 1 Spyder, and LOVE my Nitrum Turbo. I heard that the issues were so bad that Hoyt May even be thinking of a Recall. The source of my info is unimpeachable.


I'm sorry, if you have an unimpeachable source of issues with them, why do you need to ask here. 


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## rebelxt (Aug 2, 2012)

After spending $1700 plus at a "pro" shop to get my 30" Carbon Defiant and re-setting it up after the "pro" shop jacked it up mine is shooting amazing. still sighting it in at different yardages.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

They have been hit and miss for vertical nock travel with bareshafts. Some have tuned very easy on the money and some have been extremely picky with not much room to play to get things just right. A few I have had in would not clean up the vertical nock travel for anything. 

Knowing, Hoyt and they were aware of it. I'm sure they have tweaked things so you will not see this problem as much moving forward. 


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

Honolua said:


> I am not trolling. I am a huge Hoyt fan and in the last 3 years I have been real happy with 2 Carbon Elements, 1 Spyder, and LOVE my Nitrum Turbo. I heard that the issues were so bad that Hoyt May even be thinking of a Recall. The source of my info is unimpeachable.


I never thought I'd find a bow that shoots better than my Spyder 30...until I took delivery on my Defiant. My Spyder has been my goto bow since the he day I picked it up, but I haven't even shot the Spyder since I set up the new bow. And mine has the dreaded #2 cam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bullet holes through paper, bare shaft and fletched shafts touch, and broadheads hit where my field points hit!

Some very credible people here have said they have had problems, but I just don't get it. I've probably set up a dozen or more, without any problems! None! I've set up thousands of Hoyt bows, and shoot them myself. YMMV though. Unlike others, I won't say no one had not had issues, but I haven't.

Like was said above...the AT is an EXTREMELY small sample of the archery community.


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Thought this bow was reviewed and it tuned and performed well, than a change of heart for some reason? 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3233697&page=11&p=1082440137#post1082440137


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## Matteo (Mar 27, 2015)

My Hyperedge seemed to tune just fine after a couple twists in the yoke to get it to paper tune


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## A CASE DEEP (Sep 6, 2012)

I have seen several tuned and tuned several myself and have not seem one issue. They tuned a little different than Hoyts in years past but they are definitely tunable. I am talking bare shaft and paper tune. No issues.


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## Green River (May 13, 2006)

My #2 Hyperedge would not paper tune, broad head tune or bare shaft tune not even close, my dealer could not tune it either. I asked him if he had problems tuning any other Hyperedges, he took a deep breath let it out, hesitated and said "not really" then later admit to haveing problems tuning some of the 6 he had sold but also said most guys like to set up their own bows. 

My buddy has a new Defiant 34 that has bad high left tears, this is after a different dealer set up his new bow. I'm convinced not all these bows have problems but also convinced some of them do. I will say my Hyperedge held and aimed better than any bow I have ever had in my hands including my Podium x 37 or my Podium x 40 and Pro comp. I will also admit I regret selling it and not waiting for a possible solution to my problem. I saw a post in the Hoyt only section about cable rub and what not, but to me re-routing cables is a work around and not a solution to a problem that apparently not everyone has. If I did something wrong I would be the first to admit what I did and learn from it but I never figured it out. If myself or someone else can figure out my buddy's 34 I will be quick to grab another Hyperedge or Defiant. I have owned about 12 Hoyts over the years and all were a snap to tune but this one.


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## waydownsouth (Jun 18, 2012)

I have had zero trouble tuning my #2 cam hyperedge...I honestly believe its one of Hoyts greatest shooting bows that I have ever owned and I have owned alot....


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## napz0r (Oct 2, 2015)

Hmmm, interesting thread.


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## Rrichardsg (Nov 26, 2014)

Tuning bows may or may not be a problem. But what is also an issue is the bare trickle of bow production leaving lots and lots of buyers highly frustrated. I am one. I put my money down on carbon defiant 34 two months ago and cannot seem to get word one from the dealer about when it will deliver. My dealer says he cannot get a straight answer from Hoyt either. So we frustrated buyers are left to speculate in forums like this about what the heck has happened after Hoyt took our fat down payment. 

Hoyt needs to A) deliver on its orders and B)talk to its customers. Until they do, the rumors will fly and get uglier and uglier.


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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

I ordered a CD 34 on Nov. 12th. I was told an ETA of mid March. On March 15th I called my dealer to find out the status, it was not in, and he called Hoyt. Hoyt will not say a word about when it is to be delivered. The only notice they will give is whether it has shipped or not. Believe it or not, that was what I was told. Absolutely no clue when I will get my bow. But I can find out if it was shipped or not...

If I have problems with the bow after I do finally get it I am thinking I will change brands again. My experience is that Mathews always tune easier.


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## brushdog (May 11, 2009)

My defiant 34 #2 cam shoots like a dream. Paper and bare shafts to perfection! Been busting nocks since the day I picked it up


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## craigos (Aug 29, 2005)

Been shooting hoyts since 97, get a new one each year - took 3 arrows to tune my HyperEdge and shot it today out to 80 yards with protours and shot so easily and tight. I am usually the unlucky one .... I have to say - thought the factory strings looked good this year, but buy they fray prematurely ...


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## KSandTXbowman (Dec 5, 2004)

Feel better? 


SparkyLB said:


> Really? Not trying to be a INSERT EXPLETIVE HERE, but please read the sentence above and tell me it's reasonable. So because you see "so many" problems at the shop that makes it impossible for everyone else at home to be trouble free?
> 
> To the OP, seems that some folks (SOME) have issues with tuning. Some of these folks have #2 cams.
> 
> ...


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

This is not on a defiant 34 but the same cam. I was at a shoot today and I seen a buddy that had his hyperedge. I asked him if I could look at it and guess what. Same marks on his bottom cam as my buddy's. If a member on here would of never told me what to check my buddy would of never fixed what he called a "non issue". Another couple months his serving would of been wore down and probably polished the side of his cam before he noticed his "non issue". Mine was doing the same thing as the guy that told me to check my cam, totally different than what's mentioned but still in the bottom cam area with the cables. Hopefully Hoyt has figured out whatever is not wrong with these cams so I can get mine fixed. Maybe I won't lose out as much when I sell it.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> This is not on a defiant 34 but the same cam. I was at a shoot today and I seen a buddy that had his hyperedge. I asked him if I could look at it and guess what. Same marks on his bottom cam as my buddy's. If a member on here would of never told me what to check my buddy would of never fixed what he called a "non issue". Another couple months his serving would of been wore down and probably polished the side of his cam before he noticed his "non issue". Mine was doing the same thing as the guy that told me to check my cam, totally different than what's mentioned but still in the bottom cam area with the cables. Hopefully Hoyt has figured out whatever is not wrong with these cams so I can get mine fixed. Maybe I won't lose out as much when I sell it.


That looks like cam lean due to bad limb deflections or spacers in the wrong location. Just my $.02


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

sneak1413 said:


> That looks like cam lean due to bad limb deflections or spacers in the wrong location. Just my $.02


I've asked another buddy in Kansas and his shims or spacers are the same as mine and my buddy's in the picture. He says his tunes fine. But the one I seen today had the same marks and his tuned just fine to, or so he said. I don't know, I just know what I have personally seen with 3 different HE's out of 3 different shops spread across Oklahoma.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> I've asked another buddy in Kansas and his shims or spacers are the same as mine and my buddy's in the picture. He says his tunes fine. But the one I seen today had the same marks and his tuned just fine to, or so he said. I don't know, I just know what I have personally seen with 3 different HE's out of 3 different shops spread across Oklahoma.


No marks on my hyperedge and I have plenty of clearance on the cables from the cam


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

sneak1413 said:


> No marks on my hyperedge and I have plenty of clearance on the cables from the cam


And I guess your not having any tuning issues. It's not really tuning issues cause they will tune. But the way they have to be set to be tuned is just not right for any bow.


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## sleeperls (Feb 19, 2009)

I'll look for those marks on the shop demo when I pick mine up. Hopefully mine will not be to bad to tune.


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## aeds151 (Feb 19, 2016)

All on top of the 6 month wait time? Yikes Hoyt


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

sleeperls said:


> I'll look for those marks on the shop demo when I pick mine up. Hopefully mine will not be to bad to tune.


If the cable is rubbing the cam it won't be hard to see. But if the cable is rubbing the outside of the cable stop that may be a little tricky to notice without putting it in a draw board and watch the bottom cam thru the draw cycle.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

Rrichardsg said:


> Tuning bows may or may not be a problem. But what is also an issue is the bare trickle of bow production leaving lots and lots of buyers highly frustrated. I am one. I put my money down on carbon defiant 34 two months ago and cannot seem to get word one from the dealer about when it will deliver. My dealer says he cannot get a straight answer from Hoyt either. So we frustrated buyers are left to speculate in forums like this about what the heck has happened after Hoyt took our fat down payment.
> 
> Hoyt needs to A) deliver on its orders and B)talk to its customers. Until they do, the rumors will fly and get uglier and uglier.


What you don't seem to understand, is that your connection to Hoyt, is through your dealer...NOT directly with Hoyt. Hoyt did NOT take your "fat" down payment...your dealer did. It's also your dealer that talks to you about delivery etc. Your dealer can tell you anything they want, and you have no clue if it's true or not! VERY FEW dealers are going to tell you if they are behind on their payments while Hoyt waits for a money from them before they'll send anything to them! It's just SO much easier to put all the blame on the mfg. IF...IF you could actually talk to Hoyt about your dealer, which they can't, but IF they could, you will often times, hear a completely different story!
But that won't happen. So in the mean time, your dealer can spin it any way they want.

Yes, Hoyt is behind on the CARBON bows, but they've also sent out letters informing their dealers! So, until you REALLY know what's what, look a little closer at your dealer.

Or...buy another bow.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

1955 said:


> What you don't seem to understand, is that your connection to Hoyt, is through your dealer...NOT directly with Hoyt. Hoyt did NOT take your "fat" down payment...your dealer did. It's also your dealer that talks to you about delivery etc. Your dealer can tell you anything they want, and you have no clue if it's true or not! VERY FEW dealers are going to tell you if they are behind on their payments while Hoyt waits for a money from them before they'll send anything to them! It's just SO much easier to put all the blame on the mfg. IF...IF you could actually talk to Hoyt about your dealer, which they can't, but IF they could, you will often times, hear a completely different story!
> But that won't happen. So in the mean time, your dealer can spin it any way they want.
> 
> Yes, Hoyt is behind on the CARBON bows, but they've also sent out letters informing their dealers! So, until you REALLY know what's what, look a little closer at your dealer.
> ...


Lol...I love Hoyt but their carbon rollout this year has been nothing short of a disaster. I normally would be leery of what the dealer says as well...but not in this case seeing as there's tons of people going through tons of dealers that also cant find out from Hoyt when their bow should ship. Maybe, just maybe, the dealer doesnt want to give him a timeline because he already has a bunch of angry customers that he made the mistake of giving a timeline to, only to have Hoyt push it back further and further.

But...since you seem to know what is what with Hoyt...why dont you start letting the hundreds of customers know when their bows will ship seeing as you know that any dealer who cant get a timeline on a carbon defiant is just a worthless dealer who is behind on his payments...


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## Corinth Hunter (May 6, 2009)

Glad I bought a Bowtech, everyone on AT knows they have never had any issues! Lol


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## Honolua (Jun 6, 2013)

ChuckA84 said:


> Lol...I love Hoyt but their carbon rollout this year has been nothing short of a disaster. I normally would be leery of what the dealer says as well...but not in this case seeing as there's tons of people going through tons of dealers that also cant find out from Hoyt when their bow should ship. Maybe, just maybe, the dealer doesnt want to give him a timeline because he already has a bunch of angry customers that he made the mistake of giving a timeline to, only to have Hoyt push it back further and further.
> 
> But...since you seem to know what is what with Hoyt...why dont you start letting the hundreds of customers know when their bows will ship seeing as you know that any dealer who cant get a timeline on a carbon defiant is just a worthless dealer who is behind on his payments...


I wonder if the delay in shipping and the letters to dealers is related to a MAJOR DESIGN FLAW that has Hoyt scratching their heads? I was really very close to buying a defiant and will be going another route until I am confident that they have no issues. I love Hoyt and will be back, but something is going on.


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## Honolua (Jun 6, 2013)

sneak1413 said:


> That looks like cam lean due to bad limb deflections or spacers in the wrong location. Just my $.02


Seems Suspect at best...


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## chukncarbon (Feb 29, 2012)

LongIslandHunt said:


> Thought this bow was reviewed and it tuned and performed well, than a change of heart for some reason?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3233697&page=11&p=1082440137#post1082440137


Why do you have so much disdain for ontarget7??? He puts together a review of the defiant 30, and it draws 20 pages of comments, and then you accuse him of having a change of heart for some reason(oh that's right, he started another review on the Bowtech BTX). He says in his post on the previous page that some defiants have trouble with vertical nock travel. SOME, not All. Troll much???


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

chukncarbon said:


> Why do you have so much disdain for ontarget7??? He puts together a review of the defiant 30, and it draws 20 pages of comments, and then you accuse him of having a change of heart for some reason(oh that's right, he started another review on the Bowtech BTX). He says in his post on the previous page that some defiants have trouble with vertical nock travel. SOME, not All. Troll much???


No idea what your talking about, just keeping it real and will continue to keep it real, like I said in another thread, using a limb stop or creep tuning addresses that if one is really worried. I don't like to see guys get all nervous about buying a bow that has imaginary problems that really don't exist....  

OT puts together great reviews, that doesn't mean I have to take everything he says as fact. Would be foolish to do so, I can think for myself.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Honolua said:


> I wonder if the delay in shipping and the letters to dealers is related to a MAJOR DESIGN FLAW that has Hoyt scratching their heads? I was really very close to buying a defiant and will be going another route until I am confident that they have no issues. I love Hoyt and will be back, but something is going on.


I canceled 2 34 Carbon Defiant's after waiting 4 months for the same reason, I read the same letter. This Carbon 34 will also be the 2017 bow, I needed a good trouble free bow sooner than maybe next month, or the month after or fall! When I do look at Hoyt Carbon 34's again it will be well after they are out, tested and reviewed. I think Hoyt is doing the right thing just did it the wrong way! There are issues with production and with design. Now, I'm talking only about the CARBON DEFIANT 34. I'm not a gifted bow tuning guru I'm just a retired old man looking for good shooters and not problems. When gifted bow tuning gurus tell me there is a problem I don't argue I do pay closer attention. Just because I can tune my bow it doesn't suggest I know more or even as much as the bow guru that knows much more & also knows what their talking about! To many AT pretenders talk the talk but really are clueless. Its only a darn bow, there are other very good bows to choose from this year. To Hoyts credit they refused to release a less than top quality product but they also mislead me and everyone else as to release date and severity of the issues. Would have been better to cancel all orders and keep customers and fanboys happy.


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Nick728 said:


> I canceled 2 34 Carbon Defiant's after waiting 4 months for the same reason, I read the same letter. This Carbon 34 will also be the 2017 bow, I needed a good trouble free bow sooner than maybe next month, or the month after or fall! When I do look at Hoyt Carbon 34's again it will be well after they are out, tested and reviewed. I think Hoyt is doing the right thing just did it the wrong way! There are issues with production and with design. Now, I'm talking only about the CARBON DEFIANT 34. I'm not a gifted bow tuning guru I'm just a retired old man looking for good shooters and not problems. When gifted bow tuning gurus tell me there is a problem I don't argue I do pay closer attention. Just because I can tune my bow it doesn't suggest I know more or even as much as the bow guru that knows much more & also knows what their talking about! To many AT pretenders talk the talk but really are clueless. Its only a darn bow, there are other very good bows to choose from this year. To Hoyts credit they refused to release a less than top quality product but they also mislead me and everyone else as to release date and severity of the issues. Would have been better to cancel all orders and keep customers and fanboys happy.


Nick I wouldn't put anyone up on that pedestal, at the end of the day, it's 2 limbs with a few cables with a string, certainly doesn't take years to master the effects of twisting or untwisting or tuning a bow.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

LongIslandHunt said:


> Nick I wouldn't put anyone up on that pedestal, at the end of the day, it's 2 limbs with a few cables with a string, certainly doesn't take years to master the effects of twisting or untwisting or tuning a bow.


Really? ok


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Nick728 said:


> Really? ok


Nope..It's much easier than you think it is.. You could do it as well.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

LongIslandHunt said:


> Nope..It's much easier than you think it is.. You could do it as well.


If I had to I can and I would. I have worked on wheel bows as well as new cam compounds. That doesn't mean I should or know all the possible screw ups I've seen from people that think they know more than the bow gurus I trust. Keep in mind there are very few bow techs I trust to even touch my bow. I'm not arguing its easy or hard. Example: I am saying even though I can read You Tube to solve a computer problem going to someone I trust that's properly trained is just a better idea. I've seen bows blow up, come apart, jump cams, bend cams, diminish quality and other really dumb stuff because "experts thought" they knew what they were doing.
When a local shop "expert" screws up my bow I know how to recheck their work & I also have a go to backup plan using an Expert.
In the trades there are apprentices, journeymen & masters. Archery tech levels of proficiency is no different.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

I've tuned 3 a hyper edge and 2 thirtys. All 3 had the nock high problem. If you think Hoyt designed this bow to be tuned with the bottom cam 1 to 2 twist ahead Or your arrow running uphill your kidding yourself. There are soooo many more positives from running the top cam advanced rather than the opposite which most are calling for for the best tune. For the speed guys who like to cut it close on spine you will never survive long range broahead accuracy due to the fact that Most of them are leaving No room a weaker spined shaft. There is a reason they are 6 months behind and its not demand. They've had high demand for years and never been this far out. I've never waited more than 2 days after they're meeting personally. For most of your walk in pro shop archers this isn't an issue per say. But most of the advanced guys it's closer to a deal breaker. Let me throw this in the end I love hoyt and have been shooting nothing but Hoyt for several years


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## redwings423 (May 28, 2015)

I shot a Defiant this weekend, I wasn't around for the tuning process but it was shooting great. Really impressed with it all around.


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Bbd16 said:


> There is a reason they are 6 months behind and its not demand. They've had high demand for years and never been this far out.


They don't have any delays on the normal defiant line. Its only the carbon line. and I think just the 34 carbons, not sure about the 30's. I personally always use a stiffer spined arrow, maybe that's why I never saw an issue with mine even down range...


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Bbd16 said:


> I've tuned 3 a hyper edge and 2 thirtys. All 3 had the nock high problem. If you think Hoyt designed this bow to be tuned with the bottom cam 1 to 2 twist ahead Or your arrow running uphill your kidding yourself. There are soooo many more positives from running the top cam advanced rather than the opposite which most are calling for for the best tune.


Actually you run the cam timing where it produces a correct tune and _only_ where it produces a correct tune. This is probably where the rumor of a problem is coming from, given that that's the usual source of rumors of problems with this or that bow. Lots and lots of threads just like this one on all kinds of other bows out there and that's usually what it comes down to: there's a myth about running a cam advanced or behind making the bow shoot better, instead of adjusting the timing the way it should be adjusted (trial-and-error to get a good bareshaft). Sometimes the result of the folklore idea works out, but sometimes it doesn't, and a such-and-such-bow-is-defective thread is born on AT.

Generally, a modern bow has to be designed way way off to give a truly unresolvable tune problem (my Hoyt Tribute is an example and it's a very specialized design for finger shooting that really causes up/down problems when shooting it with a release and D loop) and these days that generally just doesn't happen anymore. 

So the chances are about 99% that this is a problem with the owner/operators and their tuning methods rather than the bow. Yes, it's possible that there's that 1% chance of a genuine mistake in the bow design, but that's truly a very very low probability.

My guess is the difficult cases are just the bow simply not being tuned right, like it usually is. Up/down problems have a lot of different solutions, with trial-and-error wheel/cam timing adjustments being one of them. So I'd say forget the folklore about running so-and-so wheel a smidge ahead or behind or whatever and adjust it either way as required until the bareshaft comes under control. It may line up with the timing marks, etc., and it may not. But what matters is the end result with the arrow, after all....

My .02,
DM


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Being that the cables in this system are not under equal tension u are pre loading the tighter of the 2 cables when bottom is advanced and this leads the way to a softer back wall and pin that wants to fall below the x. 2 major things right there that will lead your advanced shooters in another direction. Ur doing nothing but putting a bandaid on it. Optimal settings for best overall performance on a hybrid system does not come from what ur seing this year and hoyt knows this which is why it's been opposite for the past several years. I can take a person with a terrible grip and induce tons of lean into the system to get bareshafts impacting with fletched. Is this ideal and in its best performing mannor? Not at all. So yea sure u CAN do several things to make it show a decent tune. Run the arrow up hill adjust timing to a less than ideal setting etc...


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

dmacey said:


> Actually you run the cam timing where it produces a correct tune and _only_ where it produces a correct tune. This is probably where the rumor of a problem is coming from, given that that's the usual source of rumors of problems with this or that bow. Lots and lots of threads just like this one on all kinds of other bows out there and that's usually what it comes down to: there's a myth about running a cam advanced or behind making the bow shoot better, instead of adjusting the timing the way it should be adjusted (trial-and-error to get a good bareshaft). Sometimes the result of the folklore idea works out, but sometimes it doesn't, and a such-and-such-bow-is-defective thread is born on AT.
> 
> Generally, a modern bow has to be designed way way off to give a truly unresolvable tune problem (my Hoyt Tribute is an example and it's a very specialized design for finger shooting that really causes up/down problems when shooting it with a release and D loop) and these days that generally just doesn't happen anymore.
> 
> ...


Your use of logic will only confuse people...


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## KMiha (Jan 8, 2015)

LongIslandHunt said:


> Nick I wouldn't put anyone up on that pedestal, at the end of the day, it's 2 limbs with a few cables with a string, certainly doesn't take years to master the effects of twisting or untwisting or tuning a bow.


I agree. Sometimes people talk about tuning bows like it's as difficult as tuning a high HP car. With some research, understanding bows isn't all that difficult.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Bbd16 said:


> I've tuned 3 a hyper edge and 2 thirtys. All 3 had the nock high problem. If you think Hoyt designed this bow to be tuned with the bottom cam 1 to 2 twist ahead Or your arrow running uphill your kidding yourself. There are soooo many more positives from running the top cam advanced rather than the opposite which most are calling for for the best tune. For the speed guys who like to cut it close on spine you will never survive long range broahead accuracy due to the fact that Most of them are leaving No room a weaker spined shaft. There is a reason they are 6 months behind and its not demand. They've had high demand for years and never been this far out. I've never waited more than 2 days after they're meeting personally. For most of your walk in pro shop archers this isn't an issue per say. But most of the advanced guys it's closer to a deal breaker. Let me throw this in the end I love hoyt and have been shooting nothing but Hoyt for several years


This is spot on

I will take it one step further and people won't want to hear or see this but , Hoyt never designed the bows to be shot with the top cam advanced either , however the feel better and shoot better than having the bottom cam advanced 

I have to tell you guys Hoyts feel like ass with the bottom cam advanced 


Now I sat for about 20 min talking to one of Hoyts engineers in Vegas and he explained to me that you wanted downward nock travel so the rest have the arrow direction 

What happened to that downward nock travel this year , I don't know ??

I have tunes plenty of the 16 hoyts and for my style of shooting they tune fine ...but if your a bare shaft tuner you defiantly have to change your paradigm 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

ex-wolverine said:


> This is spot on
> 
> I will take it one step further and people won't want to hear or see this but , Hoyt never designed the bows to be shot with the top cam advanced either , however they feel better and shoot better than having the bottom cam advanced
> 
> ...


Sorry about the fat finger phone typing folks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

1955 said:


> Your use of logic will only confuse people...


Well, to give credit where it's due, I _have_ encountered an "untunable" bow in my long (and finally thankfully dead) compound career, but it's an extreme case. My aforementioned Hoyt Tribute has an incurable knock-high bareshaft when shot with the "perfect storm" of a release aid at full poundage. No matter how I time the wheels, or where the knocking point is, it'll still sling a bareshaft knock high into the bale at 5 yards. 3 or more turns out of the limb bolts and it clears up, but at maximum poundage, forget it. Arrow spine, rest type, form, grip, all of it, be darned in the end.

But it's a wheel bow designed for finger shooting and the knocking point is still almost 3" above the center of the string, even with the rest nearly bottomed out at the shelf. 

That's it and I mean _it_ as far a modern bow that I couldn't get to bareshaft properly eventually with enough careful work, and even the Hoyt straightens right out if I take out the limb bolts a few turns. I do admit to fiddling and obsessing with my PSE Supra Max, but even it after I figured out how to grip it right, tuned right down the middle with only a little tweaking to the cam timing to get it right. It would go in the gold at 20 yards if I made a good shot.

So if it really truly can't be made to shoot right, you should be able to visibly see what's wonky on the bow and it'll be off a _lot_ (eg. the very high knocking point on my wheel bow above).... 

DM


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Let's Don't be confused with being ABLE to tune them but rather with being happy with the settings that the tune required


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Bbd16 said:


> Let's Don't be confused with being ABLE to tune them but rather with being happy with the settings that the tune required


That's a very good point. But I would add that whether that constitutes a "problem" with the bow depends on the shooter's budget and just general psychological makeup. If, for example, a particular bow tunes an arrow with the knocking point 1/2" above or below "factory spec" (say, dead-90'ed with the rest) it would be up to the individual to decide if they wanted to try to fix it. The bow may group fine and the archer may otherwise shoot quite well with it but may or may not be ok with the "off" knocking point. 

If they're not ok with that and have the funds, they can invest in trying to fix that, up to and including completely replacing the bow with something else. OTOH, if that's not a bother to the shooter, it can be left as-is and shot that way. In the former case the bow has a "problem", but in the latter case it doesn't and the bow is fine.

I, for example, would fall somwhere in between. A knocking point 1/2" off of what I would expect (near dead-90) would bug me and I'd probably head to the press with it to see if something was way off like the cam timing. If I couldn't uncover anything, though, I would probably accept it rather than replacing the bow at a considerable premium in dollars to try to get rid of that 1/2". 

Another shooter may not care at all and yet another would instantly put the bow up for sale. And so on....

So it's really an eye-of-the-beholder kind of thing, plus or minus how bad you need to go out and shoot vs how meticulous you are about your equipment, etc.

DM


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

Mine could tune but it was either nock low at brace or the bottom stop hitting well before the top. I didn't like either.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

dmacey said:


> That's a very good point. But I would add that whether that constitutes a "problem" with the bow depends on the shooter's budget and just general psychological makeup. If, for example, a particular bow tunes an arrow with the knocking point 1/2" above or below "factory spec" (say, dead-90'ed with the rest) it would be up to the individual to decide if they wanted to try to fix it. The bow may group fine and the archer may otherwise shoot quite well with it but may or may not be ok with the "off" knocking point.
> 
> If they're not ok with that and have the funds, they can invest in trying to fix that, up to and including completely replacing the bow with something else. OTOH, if that's not a bother to the shooter, it can be left as-is and shot that way. In the former case the bow has a "problem", but in the latter case it doesn't and the bow is fine.
> 
> ...


Well said I can agree with that


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

918hoytman918 said:


> Mine could tune but it was either nock low at brace or the bottom stop hitting well before the top. I didn't like either.


Yep and a lot of guys will fall under this category this year including myself one reason I never become a fanboy of brand. Thankful we have so many options now days to go back and forth between.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Might have found a combination of things that work for guys bareshaft tuning with that nock high condition. 

This one is a HyperEdge #2 cam C slot that was having a nock high condition. 

Here is a pic at 20 yards with nock high









Here is a pic with zero speed nocks on top and the 4 on the bottom. Nock level and cams synched dead nuts the same time. 




























Another thing that helps that I talked about 2 years ago is stiff side down when tuning bareshaft and fletched. It did not like stiff side up for nothing. 

Don't have the time right now to figure out what had the most impact. Maybe it's just a combination of everything working together to gain clean vertical nock travel with a bareshaft and fletched. Afraid to touch anything right now, it's shooting perfect ! 
Think I'm done... 







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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

ex-wolverine said:


> This is spot on
> 
> I will take it one step further and people won't want to hear or see this but , Hoyt never designed the bows to be shot with the top cam advanced either , however the feel better and shoot better than having the bottom cam advanced
> 
> ...


Ex Wolverine -

I appreciate your posts and respect your opinion. I have ordered a CD 34, I have no idea when I will get it. But I am thinking of canceling my order. I believe you when you say you have tuned several 16 bows to get a "bullet" hole with fletched shafts. However, the one issue I can not live with is the cables hitting the cam. Can I ask you if you have experienced that or not? I hope not, but if you have I am pulling the plug on this deal - $1,500 is too much to pay for a bow that has cables rubbing on the cam (but that is just me).

Awaiting your reply. 

I am sure I will get flack for my opinion. It is my money though, and I may walk away for the deal anyway.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Honolua said:


> Just wondering if anyone has heard of Hoyt having serious issues with the Defiant line?


I have a review coming out this week over the Hoyt HyperEdge, same cam system, that'll go over details in pictures, but I wanted to post here about my findings for a high tear issue. 

The HyperEdge had the cables rubbing the bottom draw stop peg. I shimmed the cam over, high tear gone. 

Maybe that'll help on the Defiant's too. Let me know if anyone sees the same issues here as well.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> I have a review coming out this week over the Hoyt HyperEdge, same cam system, that'll go over details in pictures, but I wanted to post here about my findings for a high tear issue.
> 
> The HyperEdge had the cables rubbing the bottom draw stop peg. I shimmed the cam over, high tear gone.
> 
> Maybe that'll help on the Defiant's too. Let me know if anyone sees the same issues here as well.


No cable clearance on the 34s I did and no tuning issues on the 5 hypers I did ... No paper tuning issued on the 34s either ... 

Keep in mind the riser geometry on the hyper are nothing like Hoyts ever done before .. 

Can you explain why you think the cable rubbing was the problem ? 

Just curious 

Thanks 


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> Might have found a combination of things that work for guys bareshaft tuning with that nock high condition.
> 
> This one is a HyperEdge #2 cam C slot that was having a nock high condition.
> 
> ...


Did you find a speed loss? 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Had a Hoyt said:


> Ex Wolverine -
> 
> I appreciate your posts and respect your opinion. I have ordered a CD 34, I have no idea when I will get it. But I am thinking of canceling my order. I believe you when you say you have tuned several 16 bows to get a "bullet" hole with fletched shafts. However, the one issue I can not live with is the cables hitting the cam. Can I ask you if you have experienced that or not? I hope not, but if you have I am pulling the plug on this deal - $1,500 is too much to pay for a bow that has cables rubbing on the cam (but that is just me).
> 
> ...


See above ^^^

I Didn't see cables rubbing.... But that don't mean some aren't ... Just like I pointed out a couple years ago that #3 carbon turbo cabled hitting the riser ... Some were , some were not .. 

Hoyt fixed it 


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

ex-wolverine said:


> No cable clearance on the 34s I did and no tuning issues on the 5 hypers I did ... No paper tuning issued on the 34s either ...
> 
> Keep in mind the riser geometry on the hyper are nothing like Hoyts ever done before ..
> 
> ...


I've only had one HyperEdge to play around with. A gracious member here on AT sent it to me because it high tear issues. 

I found the same high tear and after shimming the cam over and verifying the rubbing was gone. The tear was gone as well. The next shot was a perfect bullet hole.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

whack n stack said:


> Did you find a speed loss?
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Have not checked to be honest, just still tinkering to find some consistency that I can count on when one is prone to nock high condition. 
I have not had one at all with the cable rubbing on the bottom cam but still get the extremely stubborn nock high conditions on some bows. 


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> Have not checked to be honest, just still tinkering to find some consistency that I can count on when one is prone to nock high condition.
> I have not had one at all with the cable rubbing on the bottom cam but still get the extremely stubborn nock high conditions on some bows.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The speed is last on the list, I agree. If memory serves me right, didn't one of Mathews bows have to have speed nocks removed on top to correct tail high bare shafts?

I have not saw the cable rub either. Keep up the good work.

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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

ex-wolverine said:


> See above ^^^
> 
> I Didn't see cables rubbing.... But that don't mean some aren't ... Just like I pointed out a couple years ago that #3 carbon turbo cabled hitting the riser ... Some were , some were not ..
> 
> ...


Thanks. Sounds like I should wait it out on my CD34 order (been waiting over 4 months, what is the big deal with waiting another month or two?)

I had one of the original CSTs that the cable was hitting the riser, I posted pictures here. Your are correct Hoyt fixed it, I had to send the bow in and they added new limb pockets if I recall correctly.


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

If you cant get a Defiant to tune maybe your in the wrong line of work,took me about 10 min after syncing the cams out of the box...aluminum turbo #1 cam


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

None of the 3 I tuned had the cable/cam rubbing issue eaither. All had nock high bareshaft as well. Seems to be lots of inconsistency Ina few areas. Early 16 bows had wrong shims on the bottom with a small gap between limb and spacer. Believe those are all updated for the most part. I'm sure they will get everything on track for this model with some time


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Hoyt has always made a good bow but sounds like a issue there are some fine tuners that seem to have some problems, well I will just keep shooting my blow tech CPXL best bow I have ever shot.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

It sounds like they need to get there act together ,can't deliver there carbon bows now there aluminum line has a tuning issue , it sucks to be hoyt this year , I hope they get it figured out ! I've owned a lot of Hoyt's over 25 over the years but this years bow just didn't feel like they were as nice as last years .


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## 44joeymikes (Mar 16, 2016)

And their flagship bow has been the same 330-332 ibo speed for the last 10 years.


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## Twitko (Nov 29, 2012)

44joeymikes said:


> And their flagship bow has been the same 330-332 ibo speed for the last 10 years.


I believe Hoyt states speed according ATA (not IBO) which is quite different "game". If they use IBO, you will see higher numbers

TW


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## Zpotter (Mar 18, 2016)

They're flagship bow also comes in a 350fps model I think they have they're act together


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

44joeymikes said:


> And their flagship bow has been the same 330-332 ibo speed for the last 10 years.


When you shot each model the last 10 years, you haven't noticed improvements?


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## lefty40 (Nov 25, 2012)

Zero problems here with the aluminum Defiant Turbo #2 cam 27" draw with 60# limbs. Shoots bullets and im able to group good with it to about 40 yards which is good enough for me.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

They are having one major problem... And that is producing them fast enough! LOL! The Defiant line is crushing the competition at every turn. Best pure hunting line on the planet!



Honolua said:


> Just wondering if anyone has heard of Hoyt having serious issues with the Defiant line?


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## Honolua (Jun 6, 2013)

Amazed at how civil everyone has been. If this was a thread about the Halon, those Mathews fanatics would be rioting in the streets. It'd already been 30 pages of death threats lol.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

EsteemGrinders said:


> Like the same problems that have ten or more threads already made about. Its vertical nock travel causing many users tuning troubles with nock high tears. I personally know that every #2 cam defiant we have tried at the shop will not paper tune or broadhead tune. I know some guys one here say they have no problems but I just do not see how this is possible with the amount of problems we have had. We have also had trouble with Hyper Edge and PowerMax not as much with the Power Max though. Hoyt dropped the ball this time around. Its pretty hard to recommend them to customers do to the problems that have come up.


We sell a lot of Hoyts and have not had any problems to date.

1) Hyper Edge: We have sold 6 of them to date and all have tuned and shot great with one of them winning our first leg of a local triple crown (150 shooters registered). We sell most of the Hoyt Target bows in the state because we stock them. I only know of one person in the state that had the nock high tear. He called me on the phone to get advice. He decided to sell it and try something else before I was able to see the bow. 

2) PowerMax: Zero issues. One our best selling bows, 20+ so far this year and absolutely no problems. Great shooting bow at a good price. I sold one to a very good friend of mine last week. He is a new shooter and is shooting great.

3) Defiant 34: Selling very well and tuning/shooting even better.

4) Carbon Defiants: Problem!!!! We can't hardly get them and they were ordered in October 6 months ago!!!!!!!!!


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Billincamo said:


> We sell a lot of Hoyts and have not had any problems to date.
> 
> 1) Hyper Edge: We have sold 6 of them to date and all have tuned and shot great with one of them winning our first leg of a local triple crown (150 shooters registered). We sell most of the Hoyt Target bows in the state because we stock them. I only know of one person in the state that had the nock high tear. He called me on the phone to get advice. He decided to sell it and try something else before I was able to see the bow.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind it's more of a bareshaft tuning issue not so much the paper tune. You've got lots of steering to correct that issue when paper tuning. When ur seeing that through paper id say it's a pretty severe case. Also another thing to keep in mind your not going to see field tip groups open up very much even with a slight nock high. It's more a case of fixed heads flying true


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## AldoTheApache (May 21, 2013)

Well I have a carbon defiant 34 #3 cam tunes easily, shoots great. Not sure all the fuss. Honestly don't care as I think this is best bow I've shot, and if for some reason something acts up I know Hoyt will fix it.


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

I would be one POed mofo if I had gone with the carbon and then found out I wasnt going to see my bow till July,maybe...I would hope Hoyt would issue some kind of price break or kick in some toys to make up for it.


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

Bbd16 said:


> Keep in mind it's more of a bareshaft tuning issue not so much the paper tune. You've got lots of steering to correct that issue when paper tuning. When ur seeing that through paper id say it's a pretty severe case. Also another thing to keep in mind your not going to see field tip groups open up very much even with a slight nock high. It's more a case of fixed heads flying true


I have 2 Hyperedges! One is 69 pounds shooting pro 22's and the other is 65 pounds shooting triple X's and both shoot a bullet hole and will put a bare shaft in the same hole as a fletched and both tuned exactly the same way! Nock height dead level, top cam about 1/16" ahead of bottom, center shot at 13/16" and top cam leaning slightly so that an arrow place on the cam will point to the center of the peep sight! So I don't see what the fuss is either! I have several friends that also have them and they tuned the same also!


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## hoytwon (Oct 10, 2010)

Picked up a Carbon D 34 in Hays Ks two weeks ago 30"draw 60-70 lb. Tuned real nice best shooting Hoyt I've ever shot and I have had my share!


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## lefty40 (Nov 25, 2012)

7thgenmt said:


> I would be one POed mofo if I had gone with the carbon and then found out I wasnt going to see my bow till July,maybe...I would hope Hoyt would issue some kind of price break or kick in some toys to make up for it.


Not trying to bash you are start anything but a civil debate here but I personally disagree with the thinking that the company is at fault for pulling a product back that they know there is an issue with and getting it right before sending out the bulk of the orders. From everything I have heard from multiple dealers there was a production issue with the carbon risers, they stopped production, fixed the issue and are having to play catch up to get inventory out. We have seen companies in the past few years really struggle to get announced bows out the door, not due to an issue like this but just due to not being ready from a production stand point to produce enough bows and get them to the dealers quick enough. I would hold a company in higher regards for acknowledging (even if not publicly) that they have an issue and fixing it resulting in a delay in bows being shipped than one that just isn't ready to produce enough bows to meet demand. Just my 2 cents.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

PETeach said:


> I have 2 Hyperedges! One is 69 pounds shooting pro 22's and the other is 65 pounds shooting triple X's and both shoot a bullet hole and will put a bare shaft in the same hole as a fletched and both tuned exactly the same way! Nock height dead level, top cam about 1/16" ahead of bottom, center shot at 13/16" and top cam leaning slightly so that an arrow place on the cam will point to the center of the peep sight! So I don't see what the fuss is either! I have several friends that also have them and they tuned the same also!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's great bro wish everybody had the same luck. I sure hated canceling mine. It's defiantly not all of them having issues but there is a fair share and many more then there should be


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

PETeach said:


> I have 2 Hyperedges! One is 69 pounds shooting pro 22's and the other is 65 pounds shooting triple X's and both shoot a bullet hole and will put a bare shaft in the same hole as a fletched and both tuned exactly the same way! Nock height dead level, top cam about 1/16" ahead of bottom, center shot at 13/16" and top cam leaning slightly so that an arrow place on the cam will point to the center of the peep sight! So I don't see what the fuss is either! I have several friends that also have them and they tuned the same also!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've seen two others with these same markings. And guess what. Both guys said it tuned up great. But neither even noticed this. I didn't notice mine either but it was a different issue, but still in the same area. The way it tuned told me something was not right and that's all I know.


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> I've seen two others with these same markings. And guess what. Both guys said it tuned up great. But neither even noticed this. I didn't notice mine either but it was a different issue, but still in the same area. The way it tuned told me something was not right and that's all I know.


Neither of mine rub and neither have those marks!


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

PETeach said:


> Neither of mine rub and neither have those marks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've seen some that don't either. But just saying that mine and a few others have. I wish I was in the same boat as you, believe me.


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> I've seen some that don't either. But just saying that mine and a few others have. I wish I was in the same boat as you, believe me.


Did you try moving the bottom cam over a little? You can take 2 thin nylon washers (2 of them equal the width of one of the current spacers on it) and take one of the spacers out of the side opposite the cables and put the thin washer in its place and add the other thin washer to the cable side! On each side of the bottom cam Hoyt has made it easy to do this because there are 2 spacers on each side!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

lefty40 said:


> Not trying to bash you are start anything but a civil debate here but I personally disagree with the thinking that the company is at fault for pulling a product back that they know there is an issue with and getting it right before sending out the bulk of the orders. From everything I have heard from multiple dealers there was a production issue with the carbon risers, they stopped production, fixed the issue and are having to play catch up to get inventory out. We have seen companies in the past few years really struggle to get announced bows out the door, not due to an issue like this but just due to not being ready from a production stand point to produce enough bows and get them to the dealers quick enough. I would hold a company in higher regards for acknowledging (even if not publicly) that they have an issue and fixing it resulting in a delay in bows being shipped than one that just isn't ready to produce enough bows to meet demand. Just my 2 cents.


You're probably right I'm just stating how I would feel in their situation,my dealer told me they wont even comit to July. Without some kind of time line they shouldn't even be taking orders on them and leaving people hanging with no updates


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

PETeach said:


> Did you try moving the bottom cam over a little? You can take 2 thin nylon washers (2 of them equal the width of one of the current spacers on it) and take one of the spacers out of the side opposite the cables and put the thin washer in its place and add the other thin washer to the cable side! On each side of the bottom cam Hoyt has made it easy to do this because there are 2 spacers on each side!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm heading to the shop today to get it shimmed. I know it has fixed others. But some had to shim the other direction to fix there's. Shimming it only seems as a bandaid to another problem somewhere. One bow has to be shimmed away from the riser so the cable won't rub the cable stop. Others have to be shimmed towards the riser so the cable won't rub the cam. I know guys like to shim to help tune. But why would we have to shim to keep cables from rubbing?


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## lefty40 (Nov 25, 2012)

7thgenmt said:


> You're probably right I'm just stating how I would feel in their situation,my dealer told me they wont even comit to July. Without some kind of time line they shouldn't even be taking orders on them and leaving people hanging with no updates


Yeah, the waiting game can be tough, that is for sure. Many of us in todays society, myself included, lack patience. I ordered an aluminum Defiant Turbo back in early December and the shop said 6 weeks and they where about right on the money with mine. I understand though, the demand for Hoyt Carbons is so high, it's going to be a tough wait.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Swapping spacers is only effecting lateral nock travel, it does not change vertical


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

ontarget7 said:


> Swapping spacer is only effecting lateral nock travel, it does not change vertical
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From what I was told is that getting the cam moved will take care of the rubbing. And the rubbing was just enough to slow down the bottom cam to cause the high tear. I know you know way more about bows than me, and I'm not disagreeing with you. Just stating what has worked for others.


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> Swapping spacers is only effecting lateral nock travel, it does not change vertical
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He is worried about rubbing not nock travel!!!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

918hoytman918 said:


> From what I was told is that getting the cam moved will take care of the rubbing. And the rubbing was just enough to slow down the bottom cam to cause the high tear. I know you know way more about bows than me, and I'm not disagreeing with you. Just stating what has worked for others.


That's very interesting, it would have to do a lot of rubbing with a lot of pressure to slow the cam down. 

Makes know sense but who knows, maybe 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

PETeach said:


> He is worried about rubbing not nock travel!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In most of his previous post he has been having issues with vertical nock travel


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

918hoytman918 said:


> I'm heading to the shop today to get it shimmed. I know it has fixed others. But some had to shim the other direction to fix there's. Shimming it only seems as a bandaid to another problem somewhere. One bow has to be shimmed away from the riser so the cable won't rub the cable stop. Others have to be shimmed towards the riser so the cable won't rub the cam. I know guys like to shim to help tune. But why would we have to shim to keep cables from rubbing?


The more I thought about it you may have to go towards the riser! It has nothing to do with moving cam closer or further from the cables but everything to do with leaning the cam a little one way or the other! When you slide it one way or the other it changes the pressure that the cables are applying to it! It give the cables better leverage so to speak to straighten the cam out when you move it towards the riser! Try it that way first and if it doesn't help go the other side!


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## PETeach (Nov 17, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> In most of his previous post he has been having issues with vertical nock travel
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But in his latest posts he posted a picture of the marks being left on his cam and he is worried about premature cable wear.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

ontarget7 said:


> That's very interesting, it would have to do a lot of rubbing with a lot of pressure to slow the cam down.
> 
> Makes know sense but who knows, maybe
> 
> ...


Yeah I would think so to. I also heard from another guy that those two screws on the side of limb pocket that screw into the riser was the problem. He said the screws have to be screwed in the exact same. If not it would cause the limb to shift if one was putting more pressure on one side than the other, because there was no support on the side of the limb pocket. Now I wouldn't know about that but just another theory I heard about these bows.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

ontarget7 said:


> In most of his previous post he has been having issues with vertical nock travel
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes my issue was vertical nock travel. And the rubbing was causing the bottom cam to slow down enough to cause that. When I first got the bow I had it maxed out at 62# with 60# limbs. Another member on here said to lengthen my cables to get it maxing right at 60# and that helped his bow. Well I did and sure enough it helped it. Doesn't make any sense but sure enough helped it. When I was told where to check I looked at the area and it is pretty dang close to rubbing the outside of that cable stop. Maybe lengthening the cables pulled the cable away just enough to not hit the cable stop. Something I didn't check at the time cause I wasn't aware of what was happening. I'm going to have my cables twisted up to get back to 62#. Then put it on the draw board and see if it is rubbing the cable stop like I was told. I'm still going to have it shimmed away from the riser but I would like to check this before I do and see if that was an issue. I will post pics and info later.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

PETeach said:


> The more I thought about it you may have to go towards the riser! It has nothing to do with moving cam closer or further from the cables but everything to do with leaning the cam a little one way or the other! When you slide it one way or the other it changes the pressure that the cables are applying to it! It give the cables better leverage so to speak to straighten the cam out when you move it towards the riser! Try it that way first and if it doesn't help go the other side!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes sir I will do whatever it needs. But the guy that had his rubbing the cam shimmed his towards the riser. The guy that had his rubbing the cable stop like mine shimmed his away. But I will check both.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

If your cam is rubbing during the draw cycle you want to be more plumb at brace / less lean. This will give you more lean at full draw and clear the cable more. 


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

PETeach said:


> But in his latest posts he posted a picture of the marks being left on his cam and he is worried about premature cable wear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not worried about cable wear. Im worried about a high tear. But from what I was told the rubbing is causing the high tear. Fix the rubbing, fix the high tear and premature cable wear.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

918hoytman918 said:


> I'm not worried about cable wear. Im worried about a high tear. But from what I was told the rubbing is causing the high tear. Fix the rubbing, fix the high tear and premature cable wear.


Not been the case for my 3. 2 different issues all together as far as I'm concerned. I could see this being the case if there wasn't so many nock high with no rubbing


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

Here's some pics.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)




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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Like ot7 said u need less lean at brace so that u will have more negative lean at full draw this giving u the clearance


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

918hoytman918 said:


> I've seen two others with these same markings. And guess what. Both guys said it tuned up great. But neither even noticed this. I didn't notice mine either but it was a different issue, but still in the same area. The way it tuned told me something was not right and that's all I know.


Mathews has a fix for that.its on the NoCam LOL


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

RCR_III is the guy that has been helping me. I'm waiting to read his review of the hyperedge he got to mess with. But I will do whatever it needs to find a new home, lol.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

918hoytman918 said:


>


Yep, I would shim that one. Looks like the draw stop peg is hitting your cable. This can cause a slight bump through the draw cycle and can create a nock high condition. 

Haven't had any like that but still am seeing the nock high condition. The one I have in now has know contact on the cam or from the draw stop peg but still had a nock high condition


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## DoWorkSon (Aug 5, 2010)

EsteemGrinders said:


> Like the same problems that have ten or more threads already made about. Its vertical nock travel causing many users tuning troubles with nock high tears. I personally know that every #2 cam defiant we have tried at the shop will not paper tune or broadhead tune. I know some guys one here say they have no problems but I just do not see how this is possible with the amount of problems we have had. We have also had trouble with Hyper Edge and PowerMax not as much with the Power Max though. Hoyt dropped the ball this time around. Its pretty hard to recommend them to customers do to the problems that have come up.


Funny...we are now at 9+ Hoyt Defiants sold in our shop, and haven't had a problem with one of them.

Maybe your shop should attend the Hoyt Institute next month, so you can learn how to actually tune them.

I have two Hoyt Defiants, personally as my staff shooter bows, and I have nothing bad to say about them at all. The tuned perfectly, with no issues, just as every other cam.5 system I have tuned.

Setup a Carbon last week...no issues...


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## DoWorkSon (Aug 5, 2010)

7thgenmt said:


> I would be one POed mofo if I had gone with the carbon and then found out I wasnt going to see my bow till July,maybe...I would hope Hoyt would issue some kind of price break or kick in some toys to make up for it.


Go back to voting for Bernie Sanders...you entitled brat.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

DoWorkSon said:


> Funny...we are now at 9+ Hoyt Defiants sold in our shop, and haven't had a problem with one of them.
> 
> Maybe your shop should attend the Hoyt Institute next month, so you can learn how to actually tune them.
> 
> ...


Consider yourself lucky then. Even the one I sent back to Hoyt had the same results when they tested it. [emoji848][emoji848]

I'm sure they attended the Hoyt Institute [emoji6]

I have seen just as many with high tear issues as I have seen with perfect results with bareshafts 




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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

DoWorkSon said:


> Funny...we are now at 9+ Hoyt Defiants sold in our shop, and haven't had a problem with one of them.
> 
> Maybe your shop should attend the Hoyt Institute next month, so you can learn how to actually tune them.
> 
> ...


Shed some light on all of us throw up some bareshaft pics at 20 with fleteched some pics of cam sync nock height etc...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Here is a HyperEdge I'm wrapping up. 
Specs are 
28.5/62.5
CXL Pro 250's 330 gr











It was having a problem with a nock high tear as well, not know more. Does take some extra care and a combination of a few things to get it were it needs to be. None the less she is sitting pretty with a nock level, cams synched dead nuts, arrows with stiff side down and no speed nocks on top










Bareshaft and fletched @ 20 yards
With a .414 spine arrow









Here is with stiff side up, speed nocks on top to mirror factory, nock level and cams dead nuts the same











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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

DoWorkSon said:


> Funny...we are now at 9+ Hoyt Defiants sold in our shop, and haven't had a problem with one of them.
> 
> Maybe your shop should attend the Hoyt Institute next month, so you can learn how to actually tune them.
> 
> ...


You could maybe give them some tips. Or just keep patting yourself on the back. I don't own a defiant, but your arrogance is over the top.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Turning the stiff side on the spine around helped with the one I shot as well. Didn't try the speed nock locations like on this one. Some take some TLC, some are perfect seems like. Crazy the variances.


ontarget7 said:


> Here is a HyperEdge I'm wrapping up.
> Specs are
> 28.5/62.5
> CXL Pro 250's 330 gr
> ...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> Turning the stiff side on the spine around helped with the one I shot as well. Didn't try the speed nock locations like on this one. Some take some TLC, some are perfect seems like. Crazy the variances.


These results are even a .416 spine arrow at those specs. 

The one I sent back to Hoyt, they said know way on the 400 spines and had the same results as I did with the 400's. 

Looks like it's possible now with a combination of things to get it where it needs to be. 

Some of them are crazy touchy for sure. You got to pull everything out of the woodwork to get them to come together


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

Here's some 20 yard bare shafting compliments of the Defiant Turbo.









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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

Another








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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

whack n stack said:


> Here's some 20 yard bare shafting compliments of the Defiant Turbo.
> 
> View attachment 4020570
> 
> ...


Nice [emoji1360]
For whatever reason, I have yet to see a Turbo with the nock high condition 


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> Nice [emoji1360]
> For whatever reason, I have yet to see a Turbo with the nock high condition
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, this one's picky . I'm shooting my Limb Driver and the only way it will tune nock level, is with the spring tension set at just enough to hold the shaft up at full draw. The QAD is much easier to tune with.

Man, does it shoot great though!!

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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Spoke to a few people at hoyt and they said internet shills started the rumor of the recall for #2 cams, there are no problems as far as they are concerned..


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## A CASE DEEP (Sep 6, 2012)

My turbo is grouping bare shafts at 60 yards. I would say thats solid. Only issue I see with Hoyt is they are a little more sensitive this year (spine indexing gets it done on the stubborn bows)


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

A CASE DEEP said:


> My turbo is grouping bare shafts at 60 yards. I would say thats solid. Only issue I see with Hoyt is they are a little more sensitive this year (spine indexing gets it done on the stubborn bows)


Way more than spine indexing, that is standard protocol in my book


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

LongIslandHunt said:


> Spoke to a few people at hoyt and they said internet shills started the rumor of the recall for #2 cams, there are no problems as far as they are concerned..


Of coarse they would say that [emoji23]


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

ontarget7 said:


> Of coarse they would say that [emoji23]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


X2. I just told the guy at the shop to ship it back to Hoyt and let's see what they do. I thought xpedition was bad about there limb pocket issue. But at least they admitted there was a problem.


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## Etheis (Sep 28, 2013)

Mine ended up tuning very slightly nock low cams dead nuts, I have an idea I'm working on to Get this straightened out. Has to do with speed nocks and location similar to what Shane is doing. Hopefully I get it figured out when I get back to the shop tomorrow






















Mine is the 34 2 cam E slot. Now I will state that the paper tuning is a non issue, but for us who like to do our tune through bareshaft it can get a bit hairy.


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

Imho, Hoyt needs to study Escalade Sports (Bear Archery) and their method of building good nock travel into a (rotating mod) hybrid cam. That statement may make a bunch of the Hoyt boys laugh, but it's true. If you've ever tuned a H13 or H15 cam, you can easily tune in any rest from a Whisker Biscuit to a Smack Down and everything in between. No need to get super picky with spine...just be in the ball park. For tunability, Bear's cams are much more user friendly.

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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Most underrated bows right there ^^^
Agreed, they have it nailed down 


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

ontarget7 said:


> Of coarse they would say that [emoji23]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm a Hoyt dealer and have not heard anything about any recalls. I would have to say that it is a rumor.


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> Of coarse they would say that [emoji23]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL I didn't speak to anyone I was just bustin balls..


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Billincamo said:


> I'm a Hoyt dealer and have not heard anything about any recalls. I would have to say that it is a rumor.


Never said there was a recall 

There is some issues with some bows thou if you choose to bareshaft tune


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

DoWorkSon said:


> Go back to voting for Bernie Sanders...you entitled brat.


Go back to voting for Obama,you two seem to be on the same wave length.


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

7thgenmt said:


> Go back to voting for Obama,you two seem to be on the same wave length.


If you ain't voting for trump... slap yaself


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

5 minute bushing swap... Sheesh amateurs! 



918hoytman918 said:


> I've seen two others with these same markings. And guess what. Both guys said it tuned up great. But neither even noticed this. I didn't notice mine either but it was a different issue, but still in the same area. The way it tuned told me something was not right and that's all I know.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

THE ELKMAN said:


> 5 minute bushing swap... Sheesh amateurs!


I spent $1400 on this bow. It shouldn't be rubbing period. Fan boys sheesh.


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## redwings423 (May 28, 2015)

918hoytman918 said:


> I spent $1400 on this bow. It shouldn't be rubbing period. Fan boys sheesh.


Doesn't mean don't have to tune it. You're the hoytman, whose the fanboy here?


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

That is true...v --- I was just messin. 



918hoytman918 said:


> I spent $1400 on this bow. It shouldn't be rubbing period. Fan boys sheesh.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

redwings423 said:


> Doesn't mean don't have to tune it. You're the hoytman, whose the fanboy here?


Shimming it to tune how you want it and shinning it so cables aren't rubbing are two different things here.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Larry brown said:


> Mine is shooting bullet holes through paper and was a tad nock high with bareshafts so I adjusted and the level bubble was not even out of level just had a slight adjustment. Now it's bareshaft and paper tuning perfect. I shot out to 70 yesterday with a good cross wind and was consistently hitting where I aimed and the bow is DEAD in hand and as quite as a mouse fart.


Pretty much sums up my Defiant experience also. I had no problems with last years bows either but this one is everything the old one was and smoother with a better wall.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

A person or persons shouldn't have science projects for bows in front of them ...

Isn't that the engineers job ?

Moving speed nocks around , nock point low settings , very little room for cam timing to get rid of a nock high bare shaft

Can't use the rest you want ? !!!

And the list goes on 

Look at all the stuff you guys are trying to do to get these bows to tune the way you want them to 

Really strange this year for the bare shaft shooters ...

Then again I don't think there is a manufacturer that cares about bare shaft tuning one bit ...

My guess is if a bow can paper and or group tune a manufacturer is good with that ???








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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Your painting with a pretty broad brush there pardner: Just remember MOST of them are having NO ISSUES what so ever...



ex-wolverine said:


> A person or persons shouldn't have science projects for bows in front of them ...
> 
> Isn't that the engineers job ?
> 
> ...


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

That's not my picture, I paper tune , group tune and I'm done...Noticed that was centered around bare shaft tuning...Very few people outside archery talk have ever heard of bare shaft tuning ...At least the ones I talk to, and a lot of them kill and win on the 3D circuit regularly ....

That was just a summary of this thread...You can go look at my posts of the ones I tuned...Not an issue for my style of tuning; but I will admit they can be a little more finicky than last years 



THE ELKMAN said:


> Your painting with a pretty broad brush there pardner: Just remember MOST of them are having NO ISSUES what so ever...


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

ex-wolverine said:


> A person or persons shouldn't have science projects for bows in front of them ...
> 
> Isn't that the engineers job ?
> 
> ...


It is, but from what I've seen in the way of design flaws in the past 2 years, a high school grad may as well be called an engineer.
On a side note, had no issue tuning the Hyper Edge.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

frog gigger said:


> It is, but from what I've seen in the way of design flaws in the past 2 years, a high school grad may as well be called an engineer.
> On a side note, had no issue tuning the *Hyper Edge*.


Yeah I have done 2 number 1 cams and 3 Number 2 cams haven't tackled a number 3 cam yet...But they all were shooting just fine


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Your painting with a pretty broad brush there pardner: Just remember MOST of them are having NO ISSUES what so ever...


I remember the days before I even knew what tuning was,set the bow up,sighted it in,and killed just as many animals as I do now.When did bows become so difficult for people to get shooting straight?


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## bcase4 (Jul 3, 2006)

I have said for the last few years that archery has gone from enjoyable to technical. I really hope the new trend is back to more tuneable/shootable equipment. In fact, I just remembered that my brother-in-law has an Alphamax 35 that he barely used. I may make him an offer he can't refuse, dress her up real nice, and keep her until the axles fall out!!


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

bcase4 said:


> I have said for the last few years that archery has gone from enjoyable to technical. I really hope the new trend is back to more tuneable/shootable equipment. In fact, I just remembered that my brother-in-law has an Alphamax 35 that he barely used. I may make him an offer he can't refuse, dress her up real nice, and keep her until the axles fall out!!


I don't think the bows have become more technical. I think the expectations of novice tuners are too high. AT is to blame.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

ex-wolverine said:


> ...Very few people outside archery talk have ever heard of bare shaft tuning ...At least the ones I talk to, and a lot of them kill and win on the 3D circuit regularly


Funny you say that, and I wholeheartedly agree. But.....the shop I worked at in the 90's was predominately a traditional archery store. We were bareshaft shooting compounds then because we saw so many of the traditional guys using that as their method back then. We figured out real quick if we could get a bareshaft to fly straight, that a broadhead would too. This was of course when most heads flew like poo poo.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

bcase4 said:


> I have said for the last few years that archery has gone from enjoyable to technical. I really hope the new trend is back to more tuneable/shootable equipment. In fact, I just remembered that my brother-in-law has an Alphamax 35 that he barely used. I may make him an offer he can't refuse, dress her up real nice, and keep her until the axles fall out!!


Ahhh the good ole days of the Alphamax 

I have a good friend here in town that has one for sale that's in great shape ...
He just bought an elite impulse 34 (talk about an easy bow to tune and shoot)

Anyway if your brother don't want to sell I will ask terry how much he wants for his AM35




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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

When they started coming to archerytalk... ha ha sorry I couldn't leave that one alone

I will get slammed for this and no matter what your preference of tuning is, you need to be comfortable with it...Whether it be paper, French, group or bare shaft tuning , some bows are just more forgiving than others...

Here is what I will get slammed for, because everyone who brings it up does...Hoyt and Easton are owned by the same parent company , you would think that Easton would have updated their tuning guide for bare shaft tuning compounds ,if that was a preferred method or Hoyt would have it in their manuals ....

Many people have found success bare shaft tuning compounds I get that , but many , many more people have had success with various other methods...

What I am saying is , if you cant bare shaft a bow because of the bow and not the fault of the shooter, there are a few other ways to skin that cat and get broadheads to fly like darts...For instance , for my bows...I index nocks through paper before fletching , with the best arrows I can afford, buy the best broadheads that I know will fly with my field points, for me its the Anarchy's ....I don't have issues , I don't worry about shooting 9 different broad heads through my bow...I don't really care because I found a combo that works out west for me...

One thing that I would like to point out and *maybe I missed it*...But when you see a pro in a video talking about bare shaft tuning, they talk about POINT OF IMPACT, not angle of the shaft...In other words they are more concerned that both arrows hit in the same place at 20 than they are the angle of the dangle...



7thgenmt said:


> I remember the days before I even knew what tuning was,set the bow up,sighted it in,and killed just as many animals as I do now.When did bows become so difficult for people to get shooting straight?


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

ex-wolverine said:


> When they started coming to archerytalk... ha ha sorry I couldn't leave that one alone
> 
> I will get slammed for this and no matter what your preference of tuning is, you need to be comfortable with it...Whether it be paper, French, group or bare shaft tuning , some bows are just more forgiving than others...
> 
> ...



this is exactly how I read them. partially because when the impact my targets, they don't always stay at same angle they entered. I believe that if the have same POI, they are flying the same, unless you are just getting a lucky wiggle as they flail their way to the target!!


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## Clocked92 (Apr 30, 2014)

Perry24 said:


> I don't think the bows have become more technical. I think the expectations of novice tuners are too high. AT is to blame.


When I first started archery, I had no idea what tuning even was. I just had the shop set up my bow and I went out, sighted in, and just shot. 

Now, after so much reading on tuning, I have become almost anal about it and having my equipment perfect. In reality, it's set up way better than my first bow ever was but I still want to tweak it to be perfect. My mechanical broadheads group with my field points out to 50 yards dead on and that's what I hunt with... But for some reason I want my fixed blades to hit there too instead of 2" right at 40 yards. Big deal in the long run? No! That's just how it has gotten with me. 

I think we should all take a step back from perfect tuning, and just go out and shoot.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Poi at 20 yards can be the same and with an angle sure. Now step back to 40 and quickly notice that point of impact is no longer the same. That angle is important. General rule of thumb I've found in testing is your fixed head will move about 60% of what ur bareshaft moved of the path of your fletched field point. So yea broad heads fly great at 20 not so much at 60 70 80 and sure there is wiggle room there no doubt. It's just instilled in me to make an effort to be perfect. Does that mean bows won't group field points well at x yardage bc it's not bareshaft tuned? No not at all bc u have those little things that hang off the back of the shaft to correct the issues when it leaves the bow. Me personally I'd rather not have any issues for the Fletchings to correct.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

When I'm done tuning my stuff, the broad heads I use hit exactly where my field points do...But I buy broadheads that fly great even out of an un-tuned bow...lol 

I'm curious how many people who are having issues with these bows bareshaft tuning have even tried to shoot broad heads? or do they just give up...Seems like a waste to just count on one tuning method, and if it don't work throw the bow away.???

Those little things that are on the back of the shaft , someone invented 1000 years ago for a reason...They steer the arrow better with them, than with out them...Otherwise we wouldn't need them ...








Bbd16 said:


> Poi at 20 yards can be the same and with an angle sure. Now step back to 40 and quickly notice that point of impact is no longer the same. That angle is important. General rule of thumb I've found in testing is your fixed head will move about 60% of what ur bareshaft moved of the path of your fletched field point. So yea broad heads fly great at 20 not so much at 60 70 80 and sure there is wiggle room there no doubt. It's just instilled in me to make an effort to be perfect. Does that mean bows won't group field points well at x yardage bc it's not bareshaft tuned? No not at all bc u have those little things that hang off the back of the shaft to correct the issues when it leaves the bow. Me personally I'd rather not have any issues for the Fletchings to correct.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

ex-wolverine said:


> When I'm done tuning my stuff, the broad heads I use hit exactly where my field points do...But I buy broadheads that fly great even out of an un-tuned bow...lol
> 
> I'm curious how many people who are having issues with these bows bareshaft tuning have even tried to shoot broad heads? or do they just give up...Seems like a waste to just count on one tuning method, and if it don't work throw the bow away.???
> 
> Those little things that are on the back of the shaft , someone invented 1000 years ago for a reason...They steer the arrow better with them, than with out them...Otherwise we wouldn't need them ...


Yep and happy to have them forsure mainly to correct slight form/grip imperfections. ive not shot any broad heads personally but I have another carbon 30 in route as we speak for tuning I will throw some down range with it if it has the tail high issue


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Yeah let me know because I haven't gotten any feed back from my customers yet nor have I seen any on here after they just shot bullets in paper 

Hey and don't be using some 30- year old bent up Satellites either ,,,lol

Thanks 



Bbd16 said:


> Yep and happy to have them forsure mainly to correct slight form/grip imperfections. ive not shot any broad heads personally but I have another carbon 30 in route as we speak for tuning I will throw some down range with it if it has the tail high issue


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

918hoytman918 said:


> I spent $1400 on this bow. It shouldn't be rubbing period. Fan boys sheesh.


Your correct, that is what your dealer is for. Bring it back and have him fix it. I don't care what brand you buy you are always going to have a few warranty issues. Otherwise they would not have warranty departments. Every bow manufacturer has one.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

These pics are from my carbon defiant 34. The 1st Pic is after I spent 5 min.s paper tuning to a bullet hole and then sighted it in.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

The next series of pics is 3 out of 4 groups with a broad head and a field point.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

3rd group with a broad head and a field point. The 2 nd group I made a bad shot and shot with the win on left side of X. That was me not the bow.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

4 th group with a field point and a broad head.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

The broad head was a 1 3/8" Ramcat fixed blade mounted on Gold Tip Pierce Platinums Arrows. I installed 65% mods on the Carbon Defiant 34 for more holding weight. I have set up numerous Defiant 34's, Defiant 30's, several Hyperedge's, and a handful Carbon Defiants and Carbon Defiant 34's. All have tuned with no problems and customers are very happy with them. The only Hoyt I have to work harder at tuning are the Turbo's. I have always found speed bows require a little more attention and more consistent form. As a dealer I have heard of no recalls on 2016 bows from Hoyt. I would think if there was a recall the dealers would be the first to know. Personally I have had a hunting bow shoot this good in a long time. I can' tell when I'm shooting a field point and when I shooting a broad head. My only real gripe is the same as everyone else's, I can't get enough Carbons in!!!!!!!!!!


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## irnwrkr3 (Dec 18, 2008)

I had a customer bring in a carbon defiant 30 to be tuned. I ran it through paper after setting everything up and checking it on my draw board, and it tuned very easily. Perfect bullet holes. Very nice shooting bow.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

irnwrkr3 said:


> I had a customer bring in a carbon defiant 30 to be tuned. I ran it through paper after setting everything up and checking it on my draw board, and it tuned very easily. Perfect bullet holes. Very nice shooting bow.


Yep they shoot bullets 
Did you shoot bare shafts ? Not that I do , just wondering if the customer requested it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

The Alpha's were an awesome configuration for sure, but they don't even belong in the discussion with this Defiant line, there are so many advances since then that you would be needlessly stepping backward... These bows are tuning awesome for us, no issues what so ever, bare shaft tuning or other wise. Not saying I haven't known of one or two that struggled with a certain configuration, but I can say that about most products. THIS IS GETTING OVER BLOWN



bcase4 said:


> I have said for the last few years that archery has gone from enjoyable to technical. I really hope the new trend is back to more tuneable/shootable equipment. In fact, I just remembered that my brother-in-law has an Alphamax 35 that he barely used. I may make him an offer he can't refuse, dress her up real nice, and keep her until the axles fall out!!


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## bcase4 (Jul 3, 2006)

THE ELKMAN said:


> The Alpha's were an awesome configuration for sure, but they don't even belong in the discussion with this Defiant line, there are so many advances since then that you would be needlessly stepping backward... These bows are tuning awesome for us, no issues what so ever, bare shaft tuning or other wise. Not saying I haven't known of one or two that struggled with a certain configuration, but I can say that about most products. THIS IS GETTING OVER BLOWN


I just want one for giggles. My Defiant 34 tuned up just fine. A little finicky but, no problems. Picking up my Carbon Defiant 34 this weekend. REALLY looking forward that! Oh Tom...got another string order coming your way


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Billincamo said:


> The broad head was a 1 3/8" Ramcat fixed blade mounted on Gold Tip Pierce Platinums Arrows. I installed 65% mods on the Carbon Defiant 34 for more holding weight. I have set up numerous Defiant 34's, Defiant 30's, several Hyperedge's, and a handful Carbon Defiants and Carbon Defiant 34's. All have tuned with no problems and customers are very happy with them. The only Hoyt I have to work harder at tuning are the Turbo's. I have always found speed bows require a little more attention and more consistent form. As a dealer I have heard of no recalls on 2016 bows from Hoyt. I would think if there was a recall the dealers would be the first to know. Personally I have had a hunting bow shoot this good in a long time. I can' tell when I'm shooting a field point and when I shooting a broad head. My only real gripe is the same as everyone else's, I can't get enough Carbons in!!!!!!!!!!


Thanks bill 
Confirms my suspicions of the new bows and it's exactly what I was trying to get across . That you don't have to bare shaft bows to have good groupings with FP and BH ...if you know how to read paper and have good components , you can still achieve great results 

Good shooting by the way ! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## proarcher16 (Jul 22, 2008)

scepterman30x said:


> I have a defiant turbo and Hyper Edge and I'm having problems with it...I can't seem to keep from busting Knocks.


Golden:thumbs_up


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## AldoTheApache (May 21, 2013)

I agree the problems are serious. I've broken a few nocks and had a darn robin hood from 30 yards bullseye. The bow shoots too well, and took roughly seven minutes to tune well after installing rest. I've had zero problems what so ever.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

bsharkey said:


> Mathews has a fix for that.its on the NoCam LOL


You beat me to it man. Slap a sleeve on that thing.lol


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

AldoTheApache said:


> I agree the problems are serious. I've broken a few nocks and had a darn robin hood from 30 yards bullseye. The bow shoots too well, and took roughly seven minutes to tune well after installing rest. I've had zero problems what so ever.


LOL no ****.. I regret selling mine :/


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## irnwrkr3 (Dec 18, 2008)

ex-wolverine said:


> Yep they shoot bullets
> Did you shoot bare shafts ? Not that I do , just wondering if the customer requested it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No I didn't bare shaft tune it. The customer didn't request it to be.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks for getting back with me !! 

Billincamo confirmed my suspicions ....Most people don't ask or care in my shop either ...Some do but not the majority unless I show them how



irnwrkr3 said:


> No I didn't bare shaft tune it. The customer didn't request it to be.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

ex-wolverine said:


> Thanks for getting back with me !!
> 
> Billincamo confirmed my suspicions ....Most people don't ask or care in my shop either ...Some do but not the majority unless I show them how


Tom 2 things. We don't know his had the bareshaft tail high issue for all we know he could have got one without that issue. Remember at 20 yards u really really have to be way out of wack to see broadhead venture off very far at all. If he's up for it confirm bareshaft flight and then Sling those bh and field points at 70 or 80 and I'd be sold on that theory. Good thing is nock high is about the most forgiving miss u can have imo. Still don't think fixed heads are flying at long range with tail high issue tho


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## DoWorkSon (Aug 5, 2010)

Bill,

Very well said! I couldn't agree more. I think the Defiant line is attracting a lot of sale this year! I know our shop can't seem to keep them on the shelves. I assume, with the popularity, has come more people who think the know how to tune a Hoyt, but don't understand the finer details of it. As I have said before, our shop has also seen zero problems with any of our Defiants.



Billincamo said:


> The broad head was a 1 3/8" Ramcat fixed blade mounted on Gold Tip Pierce Platinums Arrows. I installed 65% mods on the Carbon Defiant 34 for more holding weight. I have set up numerous Defiant 34's, Defiant 30's, several Hyperedge's, and a handful Carbon Defiants and Carbon Defiant 34's. All have tuned with no problems and customers are very happy with them. The only Hoyt I have to work harder at tuning are the Turbo's. I have always found speed bows require a little more attention and more consistent form. As a dealer I have heard of no recalls on 2016 bows from Hoyt. I would think if there was a recall the dealers would be the first to know. Personally I have had a hunting bow shoot this good in a long time. I can' tell when I'm shooting a field point and when I shooting a broad head. My only real gripe is the same as everyone else's, I can't get enough Carbons in!!!!!!!!!!


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## DoWorkSon (Aug 5, 2010)

I have said it before, and I will say it 1,000 more times. Unless you are shooting micro-vanes, or arrows without vanes, there is absolutely zero point, whatsoever, in bare-shaft tuning. 

And, that was three groups at 20 yards, all shots being within 1/2" of each other, and you have the gall to say the bow isn't tuned? Do you even know Bill, the shop he runs, the volume he turns over, or the amount of big game animals he has killed? I think not, because if you did, you would show a little more respect, son. 



Bbd16 said:


> Tom 2 things. We don't know his had the bareshaft tail high issue for all we know he could have got one without that issue. Remember at 20 yards u really really have to be way out of wack to see broadhead venture off very far at all. If he's up for it confirm bareshaft flight and then Sling those bh and field points at 70 or 80 and I'd be sold on that theory. Good th
> 
> ing is nock high is about the most forgiving miss u can have imo. Still don't think fixed heads are flying at long range with tail high issue tho


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

For you short distance shooters, I would agree. For the long distance shooters, the more you go back, that fixed blade Broadhead will pick up a tail high and follow suite. 

I bareshaft is pickier than a Broadhead shaft with vanes, so it won't be as amplified as much but out to 50-80 and beyond, you bet it will show up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

DoWorkSon said:


> I have said it before, and I will say it 1,000 more times. Unless you are shooting micro-vanes, or arrows without vanes, there is absolutely zero point, whatsoever, in bare-shaft tuning.
> 
> And, that was three groups at 20 yards, all shots being within 1/2" of each other, and you have the gall to say the bow isn't tuned? Do you even know Bill, the shop he runs, the volume he turns over, or the amount of big game animals he has killed? I think not, because if you did, you would show a little more respect, son.


Son? I'd slap the **** out of you if I could reach ya. I never said his bow wasn't tuned. What I stated is that bc he doesn't bareshaft tune there's no way to know if the bow in case has the tail high issue. Therefore how do you know if it's affecting broadheads accuracy? If his bows is not having the issue then by all means of course it not going to show up. Zero point? The point is so your vanes don't have to work so hard and take away energy and efficincy to correct your mishaps. Seems pretty basic to me. If we was face to face I bet you'd have a little respect. Cupcake


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## huckfinn38 (Nov 3, 2011)

Billincamo said:


> The broad head was a 1 3/8" Ramcat fixed blade mounted on Gold Tip Pierce Platinums Arrows. I installed 65% mods on the Carbon Defiant 34 for more holding weight. I have set up numerous Defiant 34's, Defiant 30's, several Hyperedge's, and a handful Carbon Defiants and Carbon Defiant 34's. All have tuned with no problems and customers are very happy with them. The only Hoyt I have to work harder at tuning are the Turbo's. I have always found speed bows require a little more attention and more consistent form. As a dealer I have heard of no recalls on 2016 bows from Hoyt. I would think if there was a recall the dealers would be the first to know. Personally I have had a hunting bow shoot this good in a long time. I can' tell when I'm shooting a field point and when I shooting a broad head. My only real gripe is the same as everyone else's, I can't get enough Carbons in!!!!!!!!!!


Ramcats shoot like field points anyway without the bow really even being tuned. I would like to see your results with a big FIXED BH like a ST Magnum, Muzzy Trocar, or QAD and see these results at even 30-50 yards. If those come back like your pics above, I may walk outside and kick myself in the balls for getting rid of my Defiant.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Shoot a few groups at 50 and 60 Bill! Show em what you got!


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## huckfinn38 (Nov 3, 2011)

DoWorkSon said:


> I have said it before, and I will say it 1,000 more times. Unless you are shooting micro-vanes, or arrows without vanes, there is absolutely zero point, whatsoever, in bare-shaft tuning.
> 
> And, that was three groups at 20 yards, all shots being within 1/2" of each other, and you have the gall to say the bow isn't tuned? Do you even know Bill, the shop he runs, the volume he turns over, or the amount of big game animals he has killed? I think not, because if you did, you would show a little more respect, son.


So as I assumed earlier you are not going in depth as some of us are. You are busting his balls about being critical of Bill but you have been critical of us that like to bareshaft tune. Because you dont like to go as in depth as some of us do doesnt make us wrong. Some of us are not happy with close enough....


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## huckfinn38 (Nov 3, 2011)

DoWorkSon said:


> Bill,
> 
> Very well said! I couldn't agree more. I think the Defiant line is attracting a lot of sale this year! I know our shop can't seem to keep them on the shelves. I assume, with the popularity, has come more people who think the know how to tune a Hoyt, but don't understand the finer details of it. As I have said before, our shop has also seen zero problems with any of our Defiants.


Your not having any problems because you are like 75% of the shops out there...Close is close enough...Maybe change screen name to Doalmostenoughworkson? LOL


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

By no means and in any way am I saying bill (have no idea who he is) can't tune a bow or his method isn't good or anything else in that manor. The case in Point was will one of these said bows that are having a tail high issue group fixed heads down range at a good distance. We all know the ail high bareshaft still paper tunes. But will that same set up throw fixed heads at 80 yards with field tips? That's the point here and highly doubtful.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

huckfinn38 said:


> so as i assumed earlier you are not going in depth as some of us are. You are busting his balls about being critical of bill but you have been critical of us that like to bareshaft tune. Because you dont like to go as in depth as some of us do doesnt make us wrong. Some of us are not happy with close enough....


bingo. They are pro shops. Nothing wrong with that. But there's a reason they paper tune and not bareshaft tune. Most don't have the room for it and if they do they caint sell bows spending hours a day perfecting bareshaft flight. Good has to be good enough for most shops and there's nothin wrong with that bc it fits the bill for 90% of the archers out there


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## Adamsdjr (Aug 17, 2015)

huckfinn38 said:


> Ramcats shoot like field points anyway without the bow really even being tuned. I would like to see your results with a big FIXED BH like a ST Magnum, Muzzy Trocar, or QAD


What Huckfinn said. I love Ramcats but I do not broadhead tune with them as they are very forgiving. Report back after shooting with a Grizz Trick II or something similar.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

And yes the carbon turbo is gobbling up all my nocks at 60 and 70 too!


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

THAT IS FUNNY AS HELL RIGHT THERE! ---v



huckfinn38 said:


> Your not having any problems because you are like 75% of the shops out there...Close is close enough...Maybe change screen name to Doalmostenoughworkson? LOL


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

THE ELKMAN said:


> And yes the carbon turbo is gobbling up all my nocks at 60 and 70 too!


On the better half of things I've not seen or heard of a turbo having any issues at all


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## Larry brown (Aug 17, 2013)

Bbd16 said:


> Tom 2 things. We don't know his had the bareshaft tail high issue for all we know he could have got one without that issue. Remember at 20 yards u really really have to be way out of wack to see broadhead venture off very far at all. If he's up for it confirm bareshaft flight and then Sling those bh and field points at 70 or 80 and I'd be sold on that theory. Good thing is nock high is about the most forgiving miss u can have imo. Still don't think fixed heads are flying at long range with tail high issue tho



I don't have pictures but when I first brought mine home it was paper tuned with bullet holes. I was very slight nock high with bareshafts. I shot Anarchy 1.5 100 grains at 10,20,30,40 and 50 and they hit with a fletched arrow with FP and even stripped one of my vanes off and I decided to quit. Now this was before I had bareshaft tuned then I realized that everyone was freaking out about it so I did it and moved my rest VERY slightly up and perfect bareshaft. Then I shot out to 60-70(all I have on my hha) and hit where I aimed. Now mine wasn't as pronounced of a nock high but it was nock high. Someone needs to shoot their extreme nock highs with BH and see what they get with some pics. I am sorry I didn't take any.


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## Billincamo (Dec 8, 2002)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Shoot a few groups at 50 and 60 Bill! Show em what you got!


I will after the blizzard and 65 MPH winds are done. Bad week in Colorado this week with another storm coming in. Hopefully we will get a break and I can get outdoors to shoot at 50 yards.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Fwiw, I had a CS30 that had some nock high flight that I couldn't get out. I think it was mostly spine related. It had about a 1/4" high tear through paper at 5 feet. I shot a bareshaft at 20 yds and it hit about 6" low. I then shot a Ramcat at 60 yds, and it hit dead on with my field points. I left it alone.


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## ArcheryRoad (Jan 23, 2012)

John Dudley has a video of his friends carbon defiant that he built w custom strings shooting at 120 yards dead center. Granted he's a great archer but on his custom strings he has one set of nocks on top and double set on bottom. Guessing to fix the nock high bs


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

Bbd16 said:


> bingo. They are pro shops. Nothing wrong with that. But there's a reason they paper tune and not bareshaft tune. Most don't have the room for it and if they do they caint sell bows spending hours a day perfecting bareshaft flight. Good has to be good enough for most shops and there's nothin wrong with that bc it fits the bill for 90% of the archers out there


My defiant bareshafted out to 60 with fletched.. fletched hitting a 4 inch orange sticker... How much better is it suppose to shoot???


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

If you cant shoot the eye out of a running badger at 175 yards with a 40 mph crosswind with a full length bareshaft arrow with a 7oz obsidian head duct taped to it forst shot out of the box with no D loop or peep its obviously a piece of crap...


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

LongIslandHunt said:


> My defiant bareshafted out to 60 with fletched.. fletched hitting a 4 inch orange sticker... How much better is it suppose to shoot???


I want to see a video of you shooting 60 yard bare shafts aiming at the same exact spot as you do with fletched 

Use a lighted nock in the bare shaft so we can watch the arrow flight ...

And I want to see it on your first end . No practice or warm up

Not saying you can't , just never seen it before 

I'm dying to see these 60 and 80 yard bare shaft flights every one talks about 

It's impressive to say the least 

Thanks


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

ex-wolverine said:


> I want to see a video of you shooting 60 yard bare shafts aiming at the same exact spot as you do with fletched
> 
> Use a lighted nock in the bare shaft so we can watch the arrow flight ...
> 
> ...


I sold my defiant.. I wouldn't say impressive, Id say I got lucky.. The defiant is the only bow I shot that I could hit that sticker with decent consistency.. Not even my target bows are there yet.. When i get my dominator dialed in better, I'll make a video of it if I can replicate.

Easton axis 340 spined cut to 27.65 with a 125 grain tip..


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Sorry I wasn't personally calling you out" My Apologies" , I shouldn't have said "you" I should have said I want to see "someone" in general do it with a lighted nock . I'm mainly interested in watching the lighted bare shaft flight at 80 yards , in slow motion would be really cool...



LongIslandHunt said:


> I sold my defiant.. I wouldn't say impressive, Id say I got lucky.. The defiant is the only bow I shot that I could hit that sticker with decent consistency.. Not even my target bows are there yet.. When i get my dominator dialed in better, I'll make a video of it if I can replicate.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

ex-wolverine said:


> Sorry I wasn't personally calling you out" My Apologies" , I shouldn't have said "you" I should have said I want to see "someone" in general do it with a lighted nock . I'm mainly interested in watching the lighted bare shaft flight at 80 yards , in slow motion would be really cool...


sure would!!!


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## Dren17 (Feb 9, 2009)

Have a Carbon Defiant 34 - Paper tuned and all I can say is this bow is far more accurate than I am out to my effective range.


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## 48archer (Mar 19, 2009)

ex-wolverine said:


> I want to see a video of you shooting 60 yard bare shafts aiming at the same exact spot as you do with fletched
> 
> Use a lighted nock in the bare shaft so we can watch the arrow flight ...
> 
> ...


I would love to see that also.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ex-wolverine said:


> Sorry I wasn't personally calling you out" My Apologies" , I shouldn't have said "you" I should have said I want to see "someone" in general do it with a lighted nock . I'm mainly interested in watching the lighted bare shaft flight at 80 yards , in slow motion would be really cool...


Haven't gone out 80 yards but I have done quite a few 50-60 yards. 
When I get a chance, I will see if I can do a clip with a lighted nock. Definitely would be cool to see the bareshaft in flight out that far. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Slo Mo too shane !!



ontarget7 said:


> Haven't gone out 80 yards but I have done quite a few 50-60 yards.
> When I get a chance, I will see if I can do a clip with a lighted nock. Definitely would be cool to see the bareshaft in flight out that far.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## huckfinn38 (Nov 3, 2011)

LongIslandHunt said:


> My defiant bareshafted out to 60 with fletched.. fletched hitting a 4 inch orange sticker... How much better is it suppose to shoot???


Do u mean 6 or 60? 60 is crazy. That would mean flawless form and epic tuning.


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## zekezoe (Dec 3, 2007)

LongIslandHunt said:


> I sold my defiant.. I wouldn't say impressive, Id say I got lucky.. The defiant is the only bow I shot that I could hit that sticker with decent consistency.. Not even my target bows are there yet.. When i get my dominator dialed in better, I'll make a video of it if I can replicate.
> 
> Easton axis 340 spined cut to 27.65 with a 125 grain tip..


Why would you sell a bow that shoots your best?


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## kendalk08 (Mar 25, 2016)

I actually almost bought this bow. I was told though the the #2 cams have problems, so until it gets fixed i cant shoot the bow. 26.5" draw.


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## 48archer (Mar 19, 2009)

I ordered a Defiant 34 Tuesday, but with #3 cams, I'm glad i have long arms. Lol


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## LongIslandHunt (Nov 2, 2015)

zekezoe said:


> Why would you sell a bow that shoots your best?


I did not want to spend $230 on fingers to press the bow, could have used pressed at shop, but I like to tinker around at home.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

ok here's a video of fletched and bareshaft at 58 yards with the bowtech btx and nockturnals 
Sorry for the sideways target had to lay it over so you could see the bareshaft clearly. 

Easton 330 injexion 
Btx 28 71lbs 
26.5 DL 
https://youtu.be/_ZFjXPAXELg


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Bbd16 said:


> ok here's a video of fletched and bareshaft at 58 yards with the bowtech btx and nockturnals
> Sorry for the sideways target had to lay it over so you could see the bareshaft clearly.
> 
> Easton 330 injexion
> ...


Awesome shooting, bro !!! 
That's what I'm talking about, right there [emoji1363]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Thanks!! Hard work and attention to detail pays off!!


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

Excellent shooting!

Tomorrow, I will endeavor to try and do some long range broadhead head testing with a slight nock high tune. My testing will be with my 70# Defiant Turbo, Easton Axis 260, 75 grain brass inserts and Grizz Tricks up front. The Grizz has a massive amount of surface area and should put the proverbial baby to bed, for me anyway. If there is a discernable difference in vertical flight, this test will show it.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## sleeperls (Feb 19, 2009)

Got my number 2 cam today. Haven't tuned it yet just set center shot around 13/16 with nocking point dead level.

The bottom cable hits the stop on the inside but does not rub the cam. I'm going to shoot it for a week and then paper tune it.


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## huckfinn38 (Nov 3, 2011)

Bbd16 said:


> ok here's a video of fletched and bareshaft at 58 yards with the bowtech btx and nockturnals
> Sorry for the sideways target had to lay it over so you could see the bareshaft clearly.
> 
> Easton 330 injexion
> ...


Flat impressive man. That bow is tuned. Walk away lol!


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## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

If im not mistaken I think Tony Tazza won his first senior tourney with his....


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Here's what you should do: Get one of your arrows. Take a razor knife and strip all fletchings of any kind. Then install the lighted nock of your choosing. All that's left is to walk back to 60 yards, draw back, and release! Glad we could help. Archery Talk! "Archers helping Archers"... ;-)



ex-wolverine said:


> Sorry I wasn't personally calling you out" My Apologies" , I shouldn't have said "you" I should have said I want to see "someone" in general do it with a lighted nock . I'm mainly interested in watching the lighted bare shaft flight at 80 yards , in slow motion would be really cool...


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

That's some shooting right there! And in the dark no less. NICE!



Bbd16 said:


> ok here's a video of fletched and bareshaft at 58 yards with the bowtech btx and nockturnals
> Sorry for the sideways target had to lay it over so you could see the bareshaft clearly.
> 
> Easton 330 injexion
> ...


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Here's what you should do: Get one of your arrows. Take a razor knife and strip all fletchings of any kind. Then install the lighted nock of your choosing. All that's left is to walk back to 60 yards, draw back, and release! Glad we could help. Archery Talk! "Archers helping Archers"... ;-)


Ha ha 

You are the epitome of that for sure


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

Looks like you got better penetration with no fletching,I think Im going to take all mine off...


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

:roflmao:



ex-wolverine said:


> ha ha
> 
> you are the epitome of that for sure


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## Hunter4christ75 (Sep 12, 2013)

I help out at two separate bow shops when I'm not doing my tuning/instructor services and have yet to see any of the complaints that some on here keep speaking of. One of these bow shops is one the largest in the nation and they have had no issues with this years Hoyts. 

As always it's doom and gloom on the AT and everyone thinks because one guy had a bow that wouldn't tune,weather or not he or the shop knew what they were doing and all of a sudden the brand is having horrible issues. 

No Hoyts are not having serious issues this year,No not all Bowtechs limbs explode, No not all Elites have to be shimmed and so on and so on. 


It's not the bow it's the Indian-My archery coach


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## johnno (Apr 11, 2006)

The flexing of the riser - especially the carbon riser - maybe an issue - there is considerable flex when being pressed using an Ezy with the Hoyt fingers.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

johnno said:


> The flexing of the riser - especially the carbon riser - maybe an issue - there is considerable flex when being pressed using an Ezy with the Hoyt fingers.


This is not true. We've measured the amount of flex with the Carbon risers and it's nothing compared to Aluminum.


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## olemil4me (Mar 1, 2008)

Bbd16 said:


> ok here's a video of fletched and bareshaft at 58 yards with the bowtech btx and nockturnals
> Sorry for the sideways target had to lay it over so you could see the bareshaft clearly.
> 
> Easton 330 injexion
> ...


Very impressive I think the bareshaft was cleaner than the fletched I thought I saw the slightest little wobble in the fetched 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Yeah. He has it azz backwards! LOL!



1955 said:


> This is not true. We've measured the amount of flex with the Carbon risers and it's nothing compared to Aluminum.


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## Pitbull_Daycare (Feb 20, 2012)

Rrichardsg said:


> Tuning bows may or may not be a problem. But what is also an issue is the bare trickle of bow production leaving lots and lots of buyers highly frustrated. I am one. I put my money down on carbon defiant 34 two months ago and cannot seem to get word one from the dealer about when it will deliver. My dealer says he cannot get a straight answer from Hoyt either. So we frustrated buyers are left to speculate in forums like this about what the heck has happened after Hoyt took our fat down payment.
> 
> Hoyt needs to A) deliver on its orders and B)talk to its customers. Until they do, the rumors will fly and get uglier and uglier.


Well said, I have a hyperedge with high left tear my dealer and I spent 8 hours trying to sort it which included cutting my new protours down to the limit and still couldn't sort it. They have been trying to get answers from hoyt for over a week and nothing next bow I buy will not be hoyt! 

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Defiant 34, 65 lbs 30 inch draw, #3 cam in the C slot. Cams timed dead even with the arrow through the middle of the Berger hole somewhere between dead level and 1/16th nock high. 

Perfect bareshaft flight at 25 yards.


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## TurdChaser (Apr 19, 2016)

Troll much?


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## ThatKidCASH (Apr 16, 2015)

Aluminum Defiant 34 #2 cam and 30 #1 cam, as well as a Hyper Edge #2 cam checking in here. 
No problems paper tuning with GT Hunter XT/ Pros, Pierce, and Velocity lines, as well as Victory 3DHVs. 
Broadhead/ bareshaft tuned with the Hunter Xt's and Pro's perfectly out to 40 with the Defiant 34.


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

Maybe you had a problem with every Defiant you tried to tune because you don't know what the hell you're doing? My defiant Turbo shoots bullet holes with fletched and bare shaft arrows with no tuning whatsoever so don't make a blanket statement saying that all of them have issues


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

TurdChaser said:


> Troll much?


Who are you directing this towards?


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## jdcamo (Sep 18, 2006)

7thgenmt said:


> Maybe you had a problem with every Defiant you tried to tune because you don't know what the hell you're doing? My defiant Turbo shoots bullet holes with fletched and bare shaft arrows with no tuning whatsoever so don't make a blanket statement saying that all of them have issues


Yep! I've tuned two carbon defiant 34's and they tuned very easy! Was Shooting bullet holes pretty quick


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Yeah they are tuning AWESOME! My Turbo #2 was literally one of the quickest, easiest tunes I have ever done. Bottom cam advanced just like the good old days!


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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

jdcamo said:


> Yep! I've tuned two carbon defiant 34's and they tuned very easy! Was Shooting bullet holes pretty quick


I envy you. I have a CD 34 that is a bear to tune. In fact I actually can't get it to tune. Best setup is a 1/8" nock low, but causes fletching contact with the rest. It is back to the dealer for the 2nd time. My dealer is simply awesome and they are working with me, I am confident they will either figure it out or it will go back to Hoyt. They told me they will probably try a different rest, I am currently using a Hamskea hybrid hunter.

My bow shoots about a 3 inch high paper tear with the timing set perfectly and the nock level. Very, very frustrating.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Tell them to quit wasting your time trying to put Band-Aids on a broken leg. "That one" needs to go straight back to Hoyt... (It will come back correct) 



Had a Hoyt said:


> I envy you. I have a CD 34 that is a bear to tune. In fact I actually can't get it to tune. Best setup is a 1/8" nock low, but causes fletching contact with the rest. It is back to the dealer for the 2nd time. My dealer is simply awesome and they are working with me, I am confident they will either figure it out or it will go back to Hoyt. They told me they will probably try a different rest, I am currently using a Hamskea hybrid hunter.
> 
> My bow shoots about a 3 inch high paper tear with the timing set perfectly and the nock level. Very, very frustrating.


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## merrygld (Jul 20, 2009)

i find it very strange that after 55 Plus years in archery after shooting and tuning hundreds of Hoyt bows and in the past year i have tuned many of the 2016 Carbon Defiants 31's & 34's with no i mean 0 problems ,, at present i am shooting a CD 31 #3 cam in the B slot 28.5 -- Darts ,, nothing but Darts ,, i love the feel & draw cycle of these new cams ,, i love that a 31 in bow draw and holds like a 34 inch bow and my 34 #2 Cam in the D slot 28.5 carbon Defiant draws and hold like a 37 inch bow ,, very forgiving ,, ,, i say don't be mislead by what other people say ,, try it you may like it ,,or maybe even love it ,, i kind relate this thread to fishing ,, 10% of the fisherman catch 90 % of the fish ,, i think that is true in just about any thing you go into ,, Best wishes and good luck tuning , and remember it's not rocket science as many make it out to be - yourbowbuddyfromohio


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## jdcamo (Sep 18, 2006)

I got a carbon defiant 34 of my own!!

So I set it up this morning. The top cam was way off timing wise so I adjusted the control cable and got the cams timed. I setup an arrow level and am getting perfect bullseyes thru paper with a bareshaft.

These bows are easier to tune than Hoyts in the past for me.

This bow draws super smooth and feels like I'm drawing a 60 lbs bow although it's set at 71 lbs.

It shoots great and seems to be very accurate. Shot at 76 yards and had a 2 inch group.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Some tune very easy and some don't, just depends on what cam number and where you land in draw length. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rhust (Oct 8, 2002)

ontarget7 said:


> Some tune very easy and some don't, just depends on what cam number and where you land in draw length.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which ones seem to be the problem. I have a carbon defiant 34 on order #2 cam. 28.5 inch draw.


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## va limbhanger (Dec 12, 2008)

I wish I knew something about the cam issues that seem to be plaguing Hoyt this year. I even own a Defiant, but just haven't had any real time to put towards tuning it yet.
Is the issue with the " nock low tears" and setting the bottom cam more advanced as compared to the top cam a result of draw stop mounting holes not put in the correct places?


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## Kammeg (Feb 21, 2009)

I just cancelled my CD 34 order. Been ordered since last weekend in January. I can't take the chance of it being one of the problem child bows that won't tune. I ordered a #3 cam and would have been in the E slot. This seems to be where most of the problems arise. I love Hoyt and will be back someday, but it won't be in 2016. Ordered from different bow manufacturer and we'll see how it goes. The ship date on my CD34 was the week of 8-2. Over 7 months is too long to wait.


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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

Kammeg said:


> I just cancelled my CD 34 order. Been ordered since last weekend in January. I can't take the chance of it being one of the problem child bows that won't tune. I ordered a #3 cam and would have been in the E slot. This seems to be where most of the problems arise. I love Hoyt and will be back someday, but it won't be in 2016. Ordered from different bow manufacturer and we'll see how it goes. The ship date on my CD34 was the week of 8-2. Over 7 months is too long to wait.


I say wise move. Wish I would have cancelled my order when I first got wind of the tuning issues. They are real I don't care what anybody says. With the nock level and timing set dead on I get over 3" paper tears at about 1 yard. Something is definitely amiss.


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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

rhust said:


> Which ones seem to be the problem. I have a carbon defiant 34 on order #2 cam. 28.5 inch draw.


That is exactly what my cam is, and is what my bow is set at. I hope you don't have the same issues that mine does.

By the way I have the same issues whether the bow is in the C or D slot. On mine the draw length runs 5/8" long.


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

Had a Hoyt said:


> I say wise move. Wish I would have cancelled my order when I first got wind of the tuning issues. They are real I don't care what anybody says. With the nock level and timing set dead on I get over 3" paper tears at about 1 yard. Something is definitely amiss.


Why havnt you sent it in for warranty service?


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## psychobaby111 (Mar 23, 2008)

7 months is along time to wait on a bow!


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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Tell them to quit wasting your time trying to put Band-Aids on a broken leg. "That one" needs to go straight back to Hoyt... (It will come back correct)


I hope so...

Don't know exactly how I will handle it if the dealer says they got it " tuned". I am convinced it needs to go back to Hoyt. But I will admit I don't know everything about tuning even though I have tuned many Hoyts and have never had an issue before.

For now I remain optimistic that it will get fixed one way or another.


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## jdcamo (Sep 18, 2006)

psychobaby111 said:


> 7 months is along time to wait on a bow!


It's worth the wait!!

I was in no limits archery in Denver and they had a bunch on the racks. Carbon and aluminum defiants


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## Swain's (Dec 16, 2014)

I'd like to add something to this, especially because I am a Hoyt Dealer:

I had issues tuning the first Defiants we got in stock, but I was able to get them to tune. The new DFX cams are quite a bit different. That being said, I can tell you that ALL of the DFX cam's I've tuned have required a bit more cam lean to tune than most. If you simply adjust cam lean at brace and start shooting it, I don't think you'll get it to tune correctly..... Couple twists to the Yoke, and there you have it. 

One thing I learned from a friend, is the bottom cam draw stop peg contacts the cable. On my personal hunting bow (Defiant Turbo #2 Cam) I was having a bit of tuning issues myself. I couldn't tell the draw stop peg was hitting the cable, but after I put a PSE draw stop peg on it with a shorter profile, I was getting bullet holes finally! Cam spacing is another thing that can probable clear that problem up easily. The first Defiants seemed to be using different spacers than the current ones. If you flip them around, you can clean up the tear. 

I also have a HyperEdge that is tuned great...best shooting bow I've owned.

In conclusion, I don't think there is "Serious issues" with the Defiants. They are simply different than what most of us are used to. ALSO the CARBON defiants were having an issue, but my understanding is it was a finish issue or something of that nature. They had some internal things to work out before they were going to ship them with the HOYT name on them. They're picky, and perhaps that's why they make such good bows.


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

Swain's said:


> I'd like to add something to this, especially because I am a Hoyt Dealer:
> 
> I had issues tuning the first Defiants we got in stock, but I was able to get them to tune. The new DFX cams are quite a bit different. That being said, I can tell you that ALL of the DFX cam's I've tuned have required a bit more cam lean to tune than most. If you simply adjust cam lean at brace and start shooting it, I don't think you'll get it to tune correctly..... Couple twists to the Yoke, and there you have it.
> 
> ...


Have you seen anyone with an issue with the number one cam? I have had zero issues with mine and I was wondering if maybe the number one cam was free of these issues.


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## Skitterz (Sep 8, 2005)

I have a CD 34 with #2 Cams set at 29 Inches and it tuned great just had to add a twist to the Yoke to remove a slight left tear at initial tuning . Cams set dead even to top maybe a touch ahead Bow shoots Great no complaints from me .


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## Swain's (Dec 16, 2014)

7thgenmt said:


> Have you seen anyone with an issue with the number one cam? I have had zero issues with mine and I was wondering if maybe the number one cam was free of these issues.


I have number 1 cams on my HyperEdge, and a little bit of yoke tuning went a long way! It didn't seem to be any different really than my #2 cam Turbo. But that's the only # 1 dfx cam I recall having any experience with...Hope that helped


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

7thgenmt said:


> Why havnt you sent it in for warranty service?


There would be hundreds and hundreds that would need sending back. They don't want to do much about it except tell you that your too picky and that "we at Hoyt don't shoot bareshafts"


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## rhust (Oct 8, 2002)

Ordered the end of May and picked it up tonight. Shot a bullet hole on the second arrow through it.


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## fatboy111 (Mar 5, 2003)

I think some have made more drama out of this than is necessary. Tuned many 31 and 34's without issue. We have had zero complaints. The nock low issue seems to be a problem for some with the 34 and #2 cam, but we have not witnessed it. Mine is a 34 28.5" draw and it shot and tuned bareshafts great with three different arrow rests and level nock travel. I left the Ripcord Ace on them both and they shoot bareshafts and fletched arrows together out to 30 yards.


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## Ncturkeycaller (Oct 13, 2008)

fatboy111 said:


> I think some have made more drama out of this than is necessary. Tuned many 31 and 34's without issue. We have had zero complaints. The nock low issue seems to be a problem for some with the 34 and #2 cam, but we have not witnessed it. Mine is a 34 28.5" draw and it shot and tuned bareshafts great with three different arrow rests and level nock travel. I left the Ripcord Ace on them both and they shoot bareshafts and fletched arrows together out to 30 yards.


Bud I had 2 cd34's #2 cam on E slot that both tuned nock low......... Ive tuned a few 3 cams with it also


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## 7thgenmt (Sep 13, 2013)

Set your draw stops one hole back from your dl setting and see what happens.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

7thgenmt said:


> Set your draw stops one hole back from your dl setting and see what happens.


Gee I wonder. You would jack up your draw length unnecessarily and gain valley.


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## LetsGetBloody (Nov 5, 2016)

Aluminum Hoyt Defiant Turbo 28dl, 70#, #3 cam, 440 gr arrow, 284 fps.. First Hoyt but smoothest shooting bow I've shot so far including my Mathews Heli-M. Bullet hole with 1st arrow which I've never experienced before. Happy customer here but hate to hear that anyone else is potentially having issues. I think Hoyt's a great company & I wouldn't let anything. Deter me from buting one


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## Azcowboy95 (Nov 27, 2016)

PROBLEMS WITH LEAFS, CARBON DEFIANT. I recently bout the 2016 hoyt carbon defiant. Fired it once and the top leaf split in half. Anyone herd of this or had the same experience?


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

Azcowboy95 said:


> PROBLEMS WITH LEAFS, CARBON DEFIANT. I recently bout the 2016 hoyt carbon defiant. Fired it once and the top leaf split in half. Anyone herd of this or had the same experience?


Leaf?

High quality affordable bear hunts PM me


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## huntaddict70 (Feb 25, 2016)

sneak1413 said:


> They don't tune nock high anymore. They tune dead level or possibly slightly nock low but so slight you can't tell with your eye. Some people just freak out because of this and that's a personal problem. Just because it is different does not make it a problem. Cam Hanes is shooting fixed heads with is #2 cam defiant....


Exactly. Sounds to me like someone can't tune a bow, probably one of the shops worked on mine and I had to get redone, then I can a one inch square at 60 yards.


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## huntaddict70 (Feb 25, 2016)

ex-wolverine said:


> I want to see a video of you shooting 60 yard bare shafts aiming at the same exact spot as you do with fletched
> 
> Use a lighted nock in the bare shaft so we can watch the arrow flight ...
> 
> ...


Don't know why people doubt bareshaft flight so much. A perfectly tuned bow doesn't even need fletchings. Fletchings are to help stear broadheads and help those not so tuned bows shoot field points.


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## Bowhunter prime 1971 (May 7, 2021)

Luv2shoot3D said:


> Like to know to


I love my pro defiant turbo I have a 28.25 draw length I have 2 cam in mine it paper tunes like a dream will never sell it am saving up venom 33. Just to get I guess iam 308 with 426 grain black eagle rampage 72 pounds any arrow suggestions not a carbon express fan


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