# Natural holding position variations?



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Foot position is where it all starts. Your stance dictates all you need to do from the ankles up...including hip position(probably your low hold) and torso position. Too open or too closed can even make the draw length feel short/long.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Foot position is where it all starts. Your stance dictates all you need to do from the ankles up...including hip position(probably your low hold) and torso position. Too open or too closed can even make the draw length feel short/long.


ok ty, I use foot markers and normally keep an eye on my foot position, but I will take more care with it and see if it helps. I was pretty consistent with it though.


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## Robspartacus (Feb 20, 2017)

Footing is critical for spots. As a 3D guy who never has the opportunity for flat footing most shots, trying spots changed things. If I can stand on a hill with toes up and a high back foot and hit the 12 at 45 yards, how hard can indoor really be. Bubble bursted quick. Footing is critical. 

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

What’s happening is you are sticking and freezing. All mental. If you can learn to unfreeze and reset, you’ll see exactly what I mean. I’ve proven it for myself by turning, twisting, toes in, toes out, wide, open, closed, etc, etc, and still pounding Xs. If your upper body form is good, none of the foot position business matters.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Robspartacus said:


> Footing is critical for spots. As a 3D guy who never has the opportunity for flat footing most shots, trying spots changed things. If I can stand on a hill with toes up and a high back foot and hit the 12 at 45 yards, how hard can indoor really be. Bubble bursted quick. Footing is critical.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk


Explain to me how you can hit a 1-1/4” circle at 45 yards with your feet in awkward positions that are never the same, but you can’t hit a 1-1/4” circle at 20 yards being able to put them anywhere you want to get comfortable. It’s in your head bro.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok ty, so today I looked at my stance. I shoot very slightly open normally, but after a quick "eyes closed test" I noticed this had my alignment pointing left of centre. Ended up with slightly closed stance for central alignment to face. I used foot markers for consistency.

This didn't seem to make any difference to my consistency with regard to impact points though, I was still getting variation. I noticed a trend for hitting left though the more I shot, I got tired way too quick and inevitably my hold times/float and score went to crap.

So I went to stabilisers. First gradual reduction of front weight, this slightly improved groups but I could hold steady easier and for longer if required. started with about 7oz on a 33.5" ended up with about 4.5oz. Was getting a few high ones so put a smidge in top tiller, which sorted that.

Next side rod, after some extreme changes to position, ended up with it back about 45 degrees out and down with same weight as I started with (16oz). Position similar to what I started with.

I guess its all part and parcel of finding the right indoor set up, change stuff one thing at a time and see if better or worse.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Foot position is where it all starts. Your stance dictates all you need to do from the ankles up...including hip position(probably your low hold) and torso position. Too open or too closed can even make the draw length feel short/long.


This^^^!



cbrunson said:


> Explain to me how you can hit a 1-1/4” circle at 45 yards with your feet in awkward positions that are never the same, but you can’t hit a 1-1/4” circle at 20 yards being able to put them anywhere you want to get comfortable. It’s in your head bro.


It's called "Natural Point of Aim" and is taught in the USMC/Army as a fundamental of marksmanship. (It has a lot to do with follow through as well) If you get into a shooting position and have to contort yourself beyond your body's (comfort and strength) natural positioning, you can struggle to get your pin to move to where you want it to be.

Further, it's different to make 1 shot on a 3D course vs 3 or 5 arrows indoors.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

HalonShooter60X said:


> This^^^!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One more unnecessary thing to worry about. Have fun with it.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

Gonna say my hold was indeed more consistent and central after all changes, it was also easier for me to move it when it was slightly off, and then re acquire that locked in aim.

@Halonshooter60x - Hard to say if this was all due to just the stance change/consitency, but I think it has helped. What you say about alignment seems sound logically to me, so I will keep doing it.


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## 290Guy (Mar 26, 2018)

cbrunson said:


> One more unnecessary thing to worry about. Have fun with it.


How can you possibly say one of the fundamental pillars of marksmanship is unnecessary? 
That’s like the guy telling me not to worry about how structurally sound and level the concrete slab is before I build my house. It’ll level out eventually right?

I watch the guys at the club shooting out of the arrow tube.... moving there feet like they are on Dancing with the stars spraying them all over the target. 

Rhetorical question since all of this is “unnecessary “ - “How can you keep your pin still , if you can’t keep your feet still.”

#1 more vote for foot position is imperative but those Army Marksmanship Unit people.....well they are fake news right....shouldn’t listen to them. Never done nothing worth nothing


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

290Guy said:


> How can you possibly say one of the fundamental pillars of marksmanship is unnecessary?
> That’s like the guy telling me not to worry about how structurally sound and level the concrete slab is before I build my house. It’ll level out eventually right?
> 
> I watch the guys at the club shooting out of the arrow tube.... moving there feet like they are on Dancing with the stars spraying them all over the target.
> ...


Experience, accomplishments, success. Do what you want though. &#55357;&#56841;


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

The 29x was the first day of the Utah Open last year. (Feel free to google it. Salt Lake Archery). I finished day two with a 21x to win the open class. The 30x was my first 30x. 

Fundamentals are good as long as you are using the correct fundamentals for the discipline you are considering. Archery is in the upper body. I’m not saying you can move your feet while trying to hold steady, just that it is not important to have them in the same position from one shot to the next.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

cbrunson said:


> The 29x was the first day of the Utah Open last year. (Feel free to google it. Salt Lake Archery). I finished day two with a 21x to win the open class. The 30x was my first 30x.
> 
> Fundamentals are good as long as you are using the correct fundamentals for the discipline you are considering. Archery is in the upper body. I’m not saying you can move your feet while trying to hold steady, just that it is not important to have them in the same position from one shot to the next.


some great shooting there, wish I had half your skill indoors. never shot a vegas round, but we do have a few faces at club so may give a try. the 10 ring I am trying to hit at the moment is smaller than the 10 on a vegas face so maybe i'll do ok.

Is it possible that at your high/pro level foot position is not as important, but maybe more so for rest of us? How much variation are we talking, just minor or are you saying if an archer switched from a very closed to a very open stance shot to shot it wouldn't effect things?

I think for me its as much mental, ie I know my alignment is the same every shot, so it not a mental cause for concern.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

*SWITCH said:


> some great shooting there, wish I had half your skill indoors. never shot a vegas round, but we do have a few faces at club so may give a try. the 10 ring I am trying to hit at the moment is smaller than the 10 on a vegas face so maybe i'll do ok.
> 
> Is it possible that at your high/pro level foot position is not as important, but maybe more so for rest of us? How much variation are we talking, just minor or are you saying if an archer switched from a very closed to a very open stance shot to shot it wouldn't effect things?
> 
> I think for me its as much mental, ie I know my alignment is the same every shot, so it not a mental cause for concern.


People are certainly different and respond differently to situations like these. The young man that shot next to me at that tournament is very methodical and also shoots very well. I only offer an alternative way of thinking about the sport. The problem with learning how to do something well, is that you don’t truly know how to get there until you get there. 

Most people here are not there, so all they can do is regurgitate that same old thing they read or heard from someone else. Most everyone I know that performs well in competition has at least one or two things they do that is far from textbook “marksmanship” fundamentals. 

Once you accept that you can identify a well executed shot vs a less than perfect one, and know exactly what went wrong (or right) you’d be surprised how few things you need to worry about. Figure out how to make a good shot, and it doesn’t matter what your stance is.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

*SWITCH said:


> Gonna say my hold was indeed more consistent and central after all changes, it was also easier for me to move it when it was slightly off, and then re acquire that locked in aim.
> 
> @Halonshooter60x - Hard to say if this was all due to just the stance change/consitency, but I think it has helped. What you say about alignment seems sound logically to me, so I will keep doing it.


Foot position doesn't necessarily have to be "locked down" for all 3 shots on a Vegas face target. I "walk the box" meaning I re-position my feet (align myself) to each aimpoint on the target so that my "natural point of aim" on target. Some guys set up so they are centered on the target and can simply turn their torso slightly to engage each aimpoint. Some of those guys can flat out spank me but..I tend to score lower when I do this.

I've never shot a 300 on a Vegas face target in competition. (I've done it a few times in practice) I have had a clean target through 10 ends of a Vegas 450 round... but I ended up dropping a few points in the last 15 arrows.

This was my target from Vegas 450 league night last week:
445/21








Your foot position IS important... insofar as your hips should be closer to perpendicular than parallel to the target...but it doesn't need to be the same as mine or anyone else.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

cbrunson said:


> Experience, accomplishments, success. Do what you want though. ��
> 
> View attachment 6932933
> 
> View attachment 6932937


That is flat out impressive!!!

You claim that foot position isn't important.... I'm guessing you could repeat that with your feet parallel to the target??? If so that would be even more impressive!!! The point I'm trying to make/clarify is, your foot position is important... just because you place your feet without a second thought doesn't mean the rest of us are "wrong" for paying attention to how we set up to engage each aimpoint.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

HalonShooter60X said:


> That is flat out impressive!!!
> 
> You claim that foot position isn't important.... I'm guessing you could repeat that with your feet parallel to the target??? If so that would be even more impressive!!! The point I'm trying to make/clarify is, your foot position is important... just because you place your feet without a second thought doesn't mean the rest of us are "wrong" for paying attention to how we set up to engage each aimpoint.


No what I’m saying is not to overthink it. I just stand comfortably and don’t worry about where my feet are. Same with stance. My draw length determines how open my stance is, not my foot position. Even that can vary significantly and you can still make a good shot every time if you keep the checklist to the absolute minimum.


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## wilkinsonk (Nov 23, 2014)

With regards to pistol/rifle marksmanship natural point of aim is important, much more so in timed/rapid fire where if your natural point of aim is off you will struggle with follow up shots. For reference I shot high-power and bullseye for many years and was posting Master/High-Master scores before my interest in the disciplines waned.

When my front sight post came down after recoil my sights were already aligned for the next shot.

I find archery to be a little different animal in that while you need to have a good natural alignment it's not as critical to have to have the same level of refinement in finding a natural point of aim.

At the beginning of the indoor season I will get in my stance on a 20yd spot, and with an arrow nocked, draw to anchor with my eyes closed. When I open my eyes and look at the target I take note of my alignment and shift my stance accordingly so that I'm not inducing unnecessary tension in my stance. I commit that to memory and don't bother with it again for the rest of the season.

The more seasons I have under my belt the less I've found the need to revisit this exercise as what gets ingrained in your memory through repetition becomes good enough.

To Cbrunson's point, the more of this stuff you pile onto your brain the more likely you are to think yourself out of a good performance.

Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

These are from one of my favorite 3D shoots I’ve been to. All Rinehart frogs with extreme angles and distances. More than half were over 60 yards. The steepest was a 57 degree down at 34 yards (first pic) and the longest was 95 yards, 17 degrees down. (Second pic)

The 11 ring on a frog is 3/4”. The first one was an 11, the second as you can see was just outside the ten. Both very, very difficult shots. Most of the shots that day were in extremely awkward positions, but by only focusing on the few really important aspects of a good shot, none of that mattered. No shot timing, no rhythm, no body position. All in peep alignment, back tension, and execution. 

If you can learn to shoot spots with the same mentality, one shot at a time, you will save yourself a ton of unneeded stress. I took home a nice wad of cash that day.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

wilkinsonk said:


> To Cbrunson's point, the more of this stuff you pile onto your brain the more likely you are to think yourself out of a good performance.


Exactly. 

And where it matters most is on game day, when focus is the most difficult. It comes down to knowing exactly why you missed and not questioning whether your feet were off a little, or did you go on “three”, or “count to three and then go?” The simple mechanics are all you need. If everything is aligned, you hold it in the middle, and watch it go (good follow through), it will hit the middle every time. Or at least hit exactly where your pin was when it fired. That’s where the expression “hitting behind the pin” comes from. It doesn’t mean you never miss. It means you know exactly where the arrow is going the moment it leaves the bow.


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## Scottspot50 (Nov 21, 2017)

I’ve been working out a similar problem. For me it looks like the issue is my follow through. Tried different foot positions with no real results then found my follow through was too far to the outside. Corrected that=x.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I’m gonna 2nd cbrunson, most of the issues mentioned here are between the ears.
That said, if knowing your feet are in the exact same position each time relaxes you, knock yourself out.
Placebo effect is real. 
But if you are stuck just low left, the problem is the loose screw behind the grip 
Try this, move your target to the left. Still stuck left? 

I wouldn’t get caught up on rifle techniques so much, completely different animal.
Hell some pistol shooters preach stance stance stance, then the best shooter in the game (at least in production) says, stance doesn’t matter... where your sights are when the shot goes off does. While the sentiment transfers, again, it’s a whole other animal.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

@Mahly - but with the closed stance I am not holding or locked low left anymore. I can micro adjust my aim with ease now. So maybe it won't work for everyone, but its worked for me.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I’d be curious to see what you are considering “more open” vs “more closed”. Mostly because of the reference to shoulder alignment with regards to hip position and foot placement. 

Here are three examples, where do you fall in? (Also three stages of archery gut. Lol)









Yes that’s me on the left. :wink:


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Simple Excercise 
Take a piece of paper and draw a verticle line on it. Step back to about 5 yards. Now aim at that line and close you're eyes and execute the shot. If you dont hit the line adjust your feet until it does. 

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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Simple Excercise
> Take a piece of paper and draw a verticle line on it. Step back to about 5 yards. Now aim at that line and close you're eyes and execute the shot. If you dont hit the line adjust your feet until it does.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Thanks for suggestion, but don't see (ha) how that's gonna work, as soon as you close your eyes sights gonna move randomly each time I would imagine, regardless of your foot position.


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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

cbrunson said:


> I’d be curious to see what you are considering “more open” vs “more closed”. Mostly because of the reference to shoulder alignment with regards to hip position and foot placement.
> 
> Here are three examples, where do you fall in? (Also three stages of archery gut. Lol)
> 
> ...


wait, left is probably how I was standing, now my back foot is about 2 inches or so behind front foot.

left for my current gut hahah


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

*SWITCH said:


> Thanks for suggestion, but don't see (ha) how that's gonna work, as soon as you close your eyes sights gonna move randomly each time I would imagine, regardless of your foot position.


How do you know it wont work until you try it. Your body has a natural point of aim built in. This point of aim could be linked to your draw length or not that I'm not sure. 
When your feet are aligned properly the bow wont be fighting that natural point of aim. It takes about 15 mins to try. It's an exercise a world champion showed my daughter. When she did the excercise she never missed the line when she adjusted her feet slightly. 

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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> How do you know it wont work until you try it. Your body has a natural point of aim built in.....
> When your feet are aligned properly the bow wont be fighting that natural point of aim. It takes about 15 mins to try. It's an exercise a world champion showed my daughter....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk



In post 7 I mentioned doing an "eyes closed test", (link below) this is similar to what you suggest and reckon they both get same result. It's what led to me changing to a closed stance, which has solved issue. 

only takes about a minute to do. I was pointing way left on target with my previous square or sometimes slightly open stance. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVW8Et5Bv1s

I had opposite problem to guy at 1min 30.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

*SWITCH said:


> @Mahly - but with the closed stance I am not holding or locked low left anymore. I can micro adjust my aim with ease now. So maybe it won't work for everyone, but its worked for me.


If that is the case, I see 2 possible reason why it works for you.

1. Your draw length is too long

2. It is a placebo (to to be taken lightly, as mentioned before, placebo affect is real).

I’m not saying this is an exhaustive list, but these are the 2 most likely contenders that I see.

Try something crazy, drop your DL by a full inch, and see what that does.

Opening your stance make the bow feel longer, closing it make it feel shorter. If it is too long, closing your stance makes sense.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Draw length and d loop length are all linked to proper bow fit. If one or the other is out you can see it in your sight picture. Loose sight picture that never settles is long. Tight jerky motions is short. Play with them until the dot settles down. Then add on your stabilizers and tune sight picture from there. 

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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I wouldn’t confuse the bow fitment with foot position. You should be able to rotate at the hips quite a bit without compromising upper body form. But if standing comfortably means putting the back foot more forward then by all means. 

Just don’t get hung up on the belief that it has to be. 

As far as long draw length vs short, of you have a good bow arm you should be able to get both to sit really well. I tend to go on the long side for accuracy results.


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## 290Guy (Mar 26, 2018)

cbrunson said:


> Experience, accomplishments, success. Do what you want though. ��
> 
> View attachment 6932933
> 
> View attachment 6932937


Distinguished, Presidents 100, NRA High Master. I have earned those. I have won some local/state archery shoots as well. 

There are people that know what those awards are and respect the brave men and women that perfected their markmanship, so we can all enjoy our freedom.....let's not lose sight of that fact!

I did the trouble of Googling it for you, so you can understand what it takes to "Earn" those awards and "Perform on a National/International Stage" ..... : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_badges_(United_States)

Just one question....how do you go from shooting a 300-30x in practice to shooting an 875/900 in Vegas? 

For the record.....you were in Flight 16 and I was in Flight 6.

How do you think you can improve your performance on the national stage?

Me - I plan on drawing from my "Marksmanship" experience!


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

290Guy said:


> Distinguished, Presidents 100, NRA High Master. I have earned those. I have won some local/state archery shoots as well.
> 
> There are people that know what those awards are and respect the brave men and women that perfected their markmanship, so we can all enjoy our freedom.....let's not lose sight of that fact!
> 
> ...


Misfired release and got a zero third shot second day. First trip to Vegas. I missed the ten five times the whole weekend. A zero puts you way down. I shot a 299-19x to win the flight on Sunday. Man that was brutal. That was what, three years ago? The 300-29x at the Utah Open was last November. Oh and you got the wrong guy I won the tenth flight with 886 the year I went to Vegas. 298-19x, 289-21x, 299-19x. What were your scores?

If you scroll down the thread a little further, you might recognize the two men I’m shooting with. I’d take their advice over any “marksman” when it comes to this sport.


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## 290Guy (Mar 26, 2018)

cbrunson said:


> Misfired release and got a zero third shot second day. First trip to Vegas. I missed the ten five times the whole weekend. A zero puts you way down. I shot a 299-19x to win the flight on Sunday. Man that was brutal. That was what, three years ago? The 300-29x at the Utah Open was last November. Oh and you got the wrong guy I won the tenth flight with 886 the year I went to Vegas. 298-19x, 289-21x, 299-19x. What were your scores?
> 
> If you scroll down the thread a little further, you might recognize the two men I’m shooting with. I’d take their advice over any “marksman” when it comes to this sport.




*It is unbelieveable that you glossed over the entire first part of what I wrote! I give up!!!!*



There is a Brunson from Utah that shot 875 @ Vegas 2019. I apologize because as you stated that is not you, and it was my fault to assume that there is only one C.Brunson in Utah.

I have no clue what you are talking about with the misfired release and three years ago. I have no clue who those people are in that photo. I wasn't shooting competitive archery three years ago. I'm not a sponsored archer or follow the industry to know who's who. I know who Levi Morgan is because he was on the QAD Box from the used release I bought on here if that helps.

296-18x best round @ Vegas and 885 overall.....as the name states 290guy. Not too bad for 2 years in the sport and shooting twice a month ~200 arrows. Maybe when life slows down and I retire I'll have more time to shoot and give you a run for your money.

Until then ...... you win the better "archer" contest.



So there you have it OP.....hope you get what you are looking for and I may need to start using your avatar.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

290Guy said:


> *It is unbelieveable that you glossed over the entire first part of what I wrote! I give up!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don’t give up so easily. These discussions are good. And certainly don’t feel attacked in any way. There are a lot of things similar in the mental aspect of the game, but I don’t believe stance is one of them. There are people who do, and that is okay. As someone else stated, if you believe it is important and you question it when you miss or feel like taking that extra step is important, then it by all means, continue. 

All I’m saying is you don’t have to.

The gentlemen in the photo are Dee and Reo Wilde. The pic was at indoor nationals a few years ago, and also the first time I shot the equivalent of a Vegas 300 in competition. Dee runs our local Vegas league. I’ve gotten a few pointers over the years. 

I understand completely about time to put into the sport. It’s very difficult to work a full time job, raise a family, and become a professional target archer. It would pretty much have to be your only hobby, and only vacations. Which is why I haven’t done as much nationally.


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