# Any advantage to flemish strings vs. endless loop ones?



## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Other than the fact that they are "prettier."

If the answer to the first question is no, then the next question becomes is the fact that flemish strings look prettier a sufficient reason for choosing them over an endless loop string?


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I make and use both endless and Flemish strings on recurves and longbows. The Flemish spliced loop is an ancient method of cordage and bowstring making. A Flemish string can be made with a very simple jig made of finishing nails and a board or even with no jig at all and can be a handy skill to possess. Flemish strings don't necessarily look better than an endless type, depending on the colors used in either. A black bowstring is just a black bowstring unless you look closely to see if the loops are braided. I enjoy dressing up my endless strings by making two color string bodies with two color loops. Making Flemish strings is not as exacting as endless and can be frustrating, especially if a particular amount of twist is desired. I prefer endless strings on highest performing bows, mostly FITA recurves. I can easily get exacting brace height with endless strings without excessive twist. If you don't like Flemish strings, you will not likely enjoy making them. Three ply Flemish strings take more time to make than endless strings and sometimes I have a length failure. Hope this is what you were looking for.


----------



## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Interesting.


----------



## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

I'm interested in opinions as well. Here's my take...

I've been shooting a flemish for awhile now and I haven't found any advantage to them really. Some say they're more quiet than endless loops since the braided loops are more "padded" than served loops, but I really haven't noticed a difference. IMO string-slap noise can be taken care of by messing with the brace height. I would assume that the larger diameter and mass at the ends of the strings would cause a flemish to be slower than an endless. I haven't noticed anything, but I bet my flemish strings are a couple of FPS or more slower than my endless strings. Like everything else I guess there's a trade-off, small as it may be, between noise and speed. 

One thing I've noticed is that a flemish string takes much longer to break-in than an endless. It just seems like an endless string is more stable than a flemish. Once I pre-stretch an endless and shoot with it for a session it doesn't budge at all. I have to twist up flemish strings more than I would like.

Flemish strings are better looking, but in the end I think I'm going to be sticking with endless loop strings. Like AKRuss mentioned, I think they're just better performing strings, though I don't have any hard facts to back it up (wish I had access to a chronograph...). 

If you're going to be making flemish strings I would recommend using a jig. It makes getting the right length string much easier.


----------



## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Well, endless are more stable than flemish because the flemish are braided. they have a lot of twists in them and these twists are not uniform. Whereas the endless does not have twists and can be a lot more uniform than the flemish can.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Leighton -


Kinda simple really. Most folks use either what they started with, or what they "believe" is correct for the type of shooting they do. Flemish has been more traditional in recent years - go figure.

From a practical standpoint, the Flemish strings do take longer to "break-in" or stretch due to the number of twists, and for the same reason they can be gentlier on the bow, the added twists act as a shock absorber, if you will. The endless strings are more stable, and I believe inherantly stronger, and you can do things like double serve the loops if you're the paranoid type.

I use B-50 endleass strings on both modern and vintage recurves and longbows, and haven't had a problem yet.

Viper1 out.


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

Theoretically, a Flemish string is stronger in the loops as all strands go through the loops instead of half, like an endless string. In reality, I've never had or heard of anyone having loop failure due to string type, although I have seen several loops rubbed thin on sharp bow nocks. In any event, I don't think that Flemish is stronger than endless or vice versa. I think a Flemish looks good on a recurve or longbow but that's just my opinion. 
Trad guys, including myself, seem somewhat hung up on how their bows look, hence the fetish for multi-colored strings. These are the same guys that drive their pickup trucks for 18 years between models and wear the same hats for 20 years unless their wives throw them away when they're not looking. Go figure ...


----------



## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*

Hello
Bought a Wing Presentation 2 Take dow bow.
Called Texas] and was told i needed a flemish string.
And it needed to be made from Drycron.

And not to use Fast flite.

Its been so long since i had one made , i just can't recall any more.
That day and time i guess has slipped away.

Do have a question throw, for a 66" bow how long will the string need to be.

Seems to me i carried a 9 1/2" fistmill back then

Any comments on the above is appreciated.

Later 
Unk


----------



## the-ghost (Sep 11, 2004)

amo 66 = 62 inch string


----------



## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Hello All*




the-ghost said:


> *amo 66 = 62 inch string *


Thanks for the information

Later 
Unk


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Unk -

Funny when those bows were new, Wing shipped them with endless loop strings, guess we know better now, huh ??? .

BTW - agree with the B-50 only.

Viper1 out.


----------



## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

Interesting experiment I made one day on the range and with a chronograph.

I originally used and actually liked the flemish string. I had two nice color combo's that looked well with my color scheme.

The flemish was about 14 strand, and I NEVER thought about how much slower a large count and heavy strand string would be.

A friend of mine said I will do you a favor, he made me an endless string with a material that is still dacron but 150 pound test per strand. The new string is only 6 strand, and with minimal serving only. 

I found an extra 7 fps with this new string and its stronger.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Swampy -

Dacron with 150 # test ?!?!?!?!?!?

That sounds a little scarry to me. B-50, is 50 - 60#.

Also, wasn't that string a little thin for your nocks.

Here's the real concern: If the "Dacron" he used is 3x the normal breaking strength of B-50, then how are it's properties in regard to stretch/energy absorption on shock? The reason we use Dacron (B-50) on older bows is because it has a little give on shock, and cushions the effects on the bow, that coupled with the extra weight are why it's slower. Seems strange that when I tried a FF string on my Olympic bow (as opposted to Dacron, I usually use) I also picked up about 6 - 7 fps. So, is it possible your friend slipped in a FF string, or if not, did he did up some Dacron on steroids, that might act as FF, and yield the same results, both + and - .

Don't know, but please be careful out there.

Viper1 out.


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

When Brownell's fist came out with B-50, everyone was concerned it had so little stretch compared to their original Dacron that it might hurt our bows. I agree, however, that B-50 or B-500 (BCY) is the best fiber for older bows like a Wing P-II. It does not matter, however, if the string is Flemish or endless. Shoot whichever you prefer. The real proper string length is that which gives you the brace height you want. The AMO 4" thing is simply a rule of thumb. It's a good place to start and adjust as needed.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

AMO states that the string length is 3" shorter than the AMO bow length, recurve or longbow. Like Russ said though, that is just a guideline--it doesn't always work. Some bows aren't built to AMO specs, then figure in shooter preferance.

Swamprat, I'd love to know what that material is. Is it real skinny, or real big? All the specs I've ever seen on dacron (B-50 or B-500) give the approximate breaking strength at 45-50# per strand. The only material I've seen with a breaking strength of 150# is 452X. 450+ is 155# test per strand. I've got a strong feeling your friend is mistaken on that material. One easy test you can try--have him give you a piece of the material. See if you can cut it with scissors or nail clippers. If they won't cut it easily, it ain't dacron.

Chad


----------



## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

6 strands...sounds fishy...


----------



## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to tread*

Hello All

Hey guys my flemish string didn't get here yet maybe tommoro [ hope]


Now back in the 70's i had a friend make mine.
I still have 5 of them all wrapped in paper with elctrical tape around the paper.
Now these strings are made out of white string material, served in green. And range in lenth from 62 to 62 1/2 in lenth
And have 10 strands.

I have know idea what the type of material that was used back then.
At that time my interest was get the right lenth of string to maintain the brace height i was shooting

And this 10 strands gave me about 9 1/2" if my old memory servers me right.

Man with 6 strands that sucker had to be fast and i would think it would be hard on the bow.

Later
Unk


----------



## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

This should settle the argument as to whether or not swamprat can or cannot use a six strand string made with B-50.

B-50's breaking strength if 50lb. 6x 50lb=300lb breaking strength.

Lets assume he has a 50lb bow, 50lbx4=200lb. This is the minimum recommended number of strands. Now, 300lb is 100lb more than 200lb, therefore, it is completely possible to use a 6 strand string made from b-50.

Do I recommend it. No. But its possible.


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Lighton -

Ah ... No.

The draw weight is a component of the shock weight, meaning the force the string experiences when it (the string) stops the limbs from moving forward, and that's measured in foot/pounds not pounds.

Consider this, If I rested a #16 bowling ball on your foot, you might not like it, but no real harm done. If I drop that same bowling ball from 10' up, your foot might have a few broken bones.

Don't know the shock strength of various wieght bows, with different limb/riser designs, arrow weight and yes string weight! So "could" a six strand string work, maybe, but like you said, I would rcommend it.

Viper1 out.


----------



## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

Gentlemen:
Thanks for the interest and some concerns about my string set up. 

I will address the questions as I remember them:

Yes, the serving in the area of my string nock is thinner than most, and I had to heat up my arrow nocks and crimp them a bit tighter to fix properly.

I have a local trad guy that makes strings for many trad archers in my area.
He told me that the string is a hybrid of B-50, but NOT B-50 alone. The string is much stronger and you can use less strands than normal and have more strength with less.

I have used this set up now for about two years and have not had any problems. I have definately seen a small increase in my arrow speed and as he states the string is not as bulky and has less resistance when it whips back from release. 

I do maintain and inspect my strings on a regular basis. If you have concerns about 6 strands, I will definately entertain them and consider bumping it up to 8 strands.


----------



## swamprat (Apr 29, 2004)

In addition:
the string is not ff string. 
it has stretched very little since I got it. 

It is custom made.


----------



## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> *Lighton -
> 
> Ah ... No.
> 
> ...


Viper, I think we have miscommunicated. I NEVER said that it was acceptable to use a B-50 string with only 6 strands. I merely said that it was possible. Big difference.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Of course I can't make any definate conclusions without knowing or seeing the material, but when a 6 strand string has little stretch, it's not dacron.

I've seen guys make "hybrid" strings over the years, mixing dacron with FF or some other high performance material. I won't do that--it amounts to the material with the most strength/least stretch totin' the load, with the other material basically just padding it out and adding some weight to make it quieter and more stable. The stronger material can, in time (depending on a lot of variables) cut through the weaker material. I can't say they don't work, but I won't risk trying them. 

In my experience a tiny string won't turn a slow bow into a rocket, and they are less durable and less stable. I've tinkered with lots of different materials and strand counts--for me a moderate size string works best--quieter, more durable, more stable. My guess the speed gain is from the material that has less elasticity, not the overall size. In general, I think you gain about 2 fps with a tiny string over a larger one--not nearly enough for anyone to notice with their eye. A few strands of string material doesn't weigh that much, or give you that much resistance.

A bit of background on me. I don't claim to know it all on strings ( a long way from it!), but I do have a good bit of experience with them. I've been making flemish strings for about 10 years now, and my guess is I've made around 3,000 of them. I've done a little bit of experimenting and tinkering along the way, along with picking the brains of bowers,other stringmakers, and a string material manufacturer (Ray Brown at BCY). Just to let you know I'm not some ya-hoo that just started shooting 6 months ago and became an expert.

Chad


----------



## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*

Hello All

Well my two strings arrived to day made out of B50
with a flemish twish.
Man i haven't put a string on for so many years i just about couldn't do it .Several trys.With out useing a bow stringer.


They were about 62 1/4" long. before streched on the bow.They were 12 strands.

Now after putting the string on the bow in its natural lenth no twist in it. I got a 7" brase height.

Now in my other post my 10 strands at 62 gave me with maybe some twisting a 9 1/2' brace height.


Now to my question i read where this guy made his strings for a 45 lb bow at 62 " bow lenth .He used 12 strands.

And my 10 strand string for my old bow was for a 35 lb. bow.

So should i have ordered a 10 strand for a 35lb bow.

So i guess what iam asking how many strands for a 66" bow at 35lbs

Thanks 
Later
Unk


----------



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

UNK -

No right answer. I have several #35 bows from 66" - 70". 10 or 12 strands B-50 work fine. Some bows are a little more particular. The 12 strand tend to be a little quieter, but not always, and a little slower (might need a chronograph to detect the difference).

So you're OK, just make sure your nock fit the string right.

Viper1 out.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

It could be a few things. Were the new strings pre-stretched? Flemish strings can have a lot of initial stretch/settling, and dacron has a lot of stretch also--measure the string on the bow and you will find out. Are the bows the same brand/style? Different styles of bows, even if the bows are the same length, can use different string lengths. Do you know if the brace height should be the same on both? Again, different styles can require different brace heights.

10 strands vs. 12 would only stretch a little more. I personally don't like to go below 12 strands for durability's sake.

Depending on the bow, a 66" should get a string (usually) that is 62-63", stretched out. If the bow was made to AMO specs, it will get a 63" string and that will give you the reccomended brace height. Like I said though, lots of bows aren't, and the reccomended brace height may not be what you like on it.

Chad


----------



## the-ghost (Sep 11, 2004)

http://www.bobleearchery.com/index.html 

easy enough to just email bob lee archery and ask what the recomended brace is for that bow.


----------



## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*



the-ghost said:


> *http://www.bobleearchery.com/index.html
> 
> easy enough to just email bob lee archery and ask what the recomended brace is for that bow. *


Hello
You are so right about a email to Bob.

To tell you the truth, i had him on the phone to day about the type of drill bit he would use for his inserts he sent me.
And he was very kind ] And took me through the whole procedure on how to erect a insert in a riser and in the bow window..

And you guys know how hind site is.

Now i did ask Bob about brace heigh and he said i could twist it to get the brase heigh i wanted.

That thought of the correct brace height for that type and lenth of bow. Never hit me then.
So not tobe a lot of trouble to Bob i thought i would ask here.

Guess i will make my self a list for Bob] It will make it easer on you guys here.

And to the question to the post above yours] the old bow i had and this bow are the same in every respect.

Thanks guys later

Unk.


----------

