# Wow USAA driving ahead!



## AmAthArcher (Aug 25, 2008)

*Bs!*

Gee - from those pages it looks like they are hiring TWO people to replace Tom Parish. Shame that they weren't paying him that combined salary for the two. (I do realize the two job descriptions include somewhat more than what his had officially, even though he was doing far more than his actual job description called for. 

Since he was totally supporting the efforts of the national head coach and working well with him then I don't understand how those two-faced so and sos can say that they are "moving in a new direction" and "in full support of Kisik Lee" at the same time. 

The removal of Tom Parish was just another example of petty politics, where the "old school" was able to pull a coup and reestablish itself into power, and toss out the primary architect of the hiring of Kisik Lee and the definition of, and the implementation of, the current high performance program. 

If it weren't for Tom Parish, there would not be any high performance program and Coach Lee would probably not have become the national head coach. We'd still be doing the same old same old, hopin for some new prodigy to just show up and start kickin a. And they throw him out in front of the bus, and then run over his surprised ol' carcass.

What a sorry self-serving (as opposed to membership serving) outfit is the NAA, and that includes the new board that chose to listen to a few vindictative people/parents who had a personal vendetta against change and those that broght it like Tom. bahhh. I've been a member for decades and I can't believe the board is for real - we take one step forward (Tom Parish and Kisk Lee) and then five steps assbackards. This is supporting Lee? I don't think so.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

AmAthArcher said:


> Gee - from those pages it looks like they are hiring TWO people to replace Tom Parish. Shame that they weren't paying him that combined salary for the two. (I do realize the two job descriptions include somewhat more than what his had officially, even though he was doing far more than his actual job description called for.
> 
> Since he was totally supporting the efforts of the national head coach and working well with him then I don't understand how those two-faced so and sos can say that they are "moving in a new direction" and "in full support of Kisik Lee" at the same time.
> 
> ...


How do you know it wasn't Lee that wanted Mr Parish gone? Given the glowing endorsement the board has given to Coach Lee, I find it very difficult to believe that if he wanted Parish to stay the board would have booted him.

Another viewpoint...Easton's support went from $5k per year to a $307k grant...this sounds to me like Diamond Jim views the board's actions very favorably indeed. Diamond Dollars talk very loudly! This is not a criticism, just an observation...I'm very pleased that Easton has stepped up to the plate and hope other manufacturers and supporters will follow suit.

One final note...I wish the board the best in finding good candidates to replace Brad and Tom. Given the proposed salary ranges, they're going to face an uphill battle in finding highly qualified candidates.


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## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

Given the way these job descriptions are written they are likely looking for USOC insiders. That way they can personally control the board and the office. By the way, that was the purpose of the BOG change.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Olsenck said:


> How do you know it wasn't Lee that wanted Mr Parish gone? Given the glowing endorsement the board has given to Coach Lee, I find it very difficult to believe that if he wanted Parish to stay the board would have booted him.
> 
> Another viewpoint...Easton's support went from $5k per year to a $307k grant...this sounds to me like Diamond Jim views the board's actions very favorably indeed. Diamond Dollars talk very loudly! This is not a criticism, just an observation...I'm very pleased that Easton has stepped up to the plate and hope other manufacturers and supporters will follow suit.
> 
> One final note...I wish the board the best in finding good candidates to replace Brad and Tom. Given the proposed salary ranges, they're going to face an uphill battle in finding highly qualified candidates.


My curiosity is piqued, as to whether that was a conditional grant.


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## Hmmmm (Aug 23, 2008)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> My curiosity is piqued, as to whether that was a conditional grant.


Half the money is designated for the college program.

that begs the question of how does that benefit Archery or easton


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hmmmm said:


> Half the money is designated for the college program.
> 
> that begs the question of how does that benefit Archery or easton


The grant should absolutely benefit the sport and the donor. Archery is lucky to have a benefactor like Easton. I don't have a problem if Easton has an agenda or benefits from their generosity. They should!
Thank you very much should be the only response to someone willing to help out our sport.


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## Hmmmm (Aug 23, 2008)

midwayarcherywi said:


> The grant should absolutely benefit the sport and the donor. Archery is lucky to have a benefactor like Easton. I don't have a problem if Easton has an agenda or benefits from their generosity. They should!
> Thank you very much should be the only response to someone willing to help out our sport.


That is funny.

You Have not been around long have you.


in any case to put my question another way. were is the deficit in college archery that would motivate this?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hmmmm said:


> That is funny.
> 
> You Have not been around long have you.
> 
> ...


One only needs to look at what Easton has done to promote archery at Purdue. It was a school with no program. In the last two years, Jon Miller's hard work and Easton's generosity has brought archery back to this University.
Efforts like this are to be lauded. Archery at the college level is vibrant as a club sport. Who knows, maybe with Easton's help and hard work by young men like Jon Miller, archery will expand even more at the college level.
Jaded people are always looking for the string that is attached. I say, be happy that people are willing to help. Maybe you would like to replace the funding with that of your own, or perhaps lead a fund raising drive to make Easton's largess unnecessary.
I thought not.


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## [email protected] (Mar 23, 2008)

Our club at berkeley was able to buy a dozen club stabilizers and a few other odds and ends for our shooters who were looking to advance but needed equipment to use until they could afford their own. all of this money came from the Easton grant. Not quite sure how you can turn that into a bad thing.


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## [email protected] (Mar 23, 2008)

p.s. 

Thank you very much Easton


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## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

The problem is that such blind following leads only to abuse. You must always remain in control of your clubs and organizations.
I have challenged Jim Easton many times over the last twenty years, not for what he wanted but how he goes about getting it. 
The thing I have always laughed at him about is the fact he likely could have gotten everything he wants just by making his case for it. I think the previous posts are proof of that.
Play by the rules. People desperate to fit in or get something may give you what you want, much like bank robbery but it will never be fulfilling


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

comp1 said:


> The problem is that such blind following leads only to abuse. You must always remain in control of your clubs and organizations.
> I have challenged Jim Easton many times over the last twenty years, not for what he wanted but how he goes about getting it.
> The thing I have always laughed at him about is the fact he likely could have gotten everything he wants just by making his case for it. I think the previous posts are proof of that.
> Play by the rules. People desperate to fit in or get something may give you what you want, much like bank robbery but it will never be fulfilling


Oh, sure, take away all the fun of swinging the big stick:wink:


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## Politi-uncool (Aug 13, 2008)

AmAthArcher said:


> Gee - from those pages it looks like they are hiring TWO people to replace Tom Parish. Shame that they weren't paying him that combined salary for the two. (I do realize the two job descriptions include somewhat more than what his had officially, even though he was doing far more than his actual job description called for.
> 
> Since he was totally supporting the efforts of the national head coach and working well with him then I don't understand how those two-faced so and sos can say that they are "moving in a new direction" and "in full support of Kisik Lee" at the same time.
> 
> ...


Looks like you are a mislead little sheep. If you knew even an ounce of the BS that Parrish dished out...I don't know very many people that are upset that he is gone. In fact, I have not personally spoken to a single person that is upset that he is gone. The fact that money was going out much faster then it was coming in, was the reason for the board change. The fact that there was so much unrest in the ranks and after a year the board was no where in improving USAA was the reason for the change with Camp and Parrish. It can only get better since we have already been at the bottom for years.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

An interesting observation (that someone pointed out to me, but I agree with 100%):

Threads like this bring the alters to life. Alters = those who prefer not to make their opinions and thoughts known using their primary account or real name.

Why do threads like this bring out the alters? I think there is a valid reason. Over the years, the NAA regime has "punished" those who have been critical of the organization. Without doubt, time has proven the critics to be correct on most issues. With certainty, the critics were absolutely correct about the financial condition of the organization, and were also correct about the lack of leadership, total lack of transparency, and members being shunned if they weren't "insiders" or supportive of those who were.

The saddest part of all is that members have been afraid to speak out against the wrongdoings and ineptness of the leadership of this organization using their real accounts and real names. Members fear reprisals. Now that's just darn scary!

Perhaps part of the problem is that the NAA is responsible for serving two masters...its members and its NGB duties.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Olsenck…you are mostly right, however there is a group of people that like to disparage other people. This is very frustrating when you are the target and you do not know who is attacking you. One of these unknowns could be anybody and we would not know who it is. How does anyone know? It could be a close friend, it could be a person who had so much to gain with the status quo they fear they will loose their political clout. It could even be the person that is being talked about and we would not know. It’s hard to say. That’s why it can be frustrating to deal with the “Alters”. And one more point on this….I don’t think it is the NAA that does the punishing. It is the few who have been given too much power and very little if any moderating. 

The biggest problem that we members deal with is not knowing the full story, but here are some issues that could have caused problems for the ex-HPD. First, are the two jobs that our past High Performance Director was supposedly in charge of. He communicated poorly and made lots of potential coaches, archers and supporters frustrated. He dropped the ball several times in making sure we were all informed. Did he have too much on his plate? If so, is he qualified to do what is expected of him? Second, he tried his best to get everyone into the Lee program (no matter the consequences) including archers such as Jenny, Butch and Vic. He did everything possible to take their funding away although these were our best archers. Think about it. These archers were treated poorly until they make the Olympic Team and then they are loved by the very people who tried to get rid of them? How does that work? Then once the Games are over, they are accused of the failure at the Games due to their poor performance and not going with Lee’s method? I wonder if any of these archers were a little suspicious at the Games of the true intent of the personnel working with them? Again, you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. He could have developed his program while encouraging the top archers and IF this program is as good as it is supposed to be, it will take a natural course and the program would become the program of choice due to high performance by the archers who have chosen to take that direction. The best archers of yesterday would either join for want of getting better or leave. Forcing them out is and has proven to be suicidal. His all or nothing attitude caused a lot of frustration and dissention in the USAA community. Third, taking the choice managerial positions at international events is an insult to us as members and an abuse of position. Several archers complained and felt it was just a vacation for him. I received this information from several archers who have traveled with him at these events. Fourth, the “old” board tried to remove him from his position for various reasons but the USOC refused to allow it (I heard they tried this twice). And now, the new board has agreed as well to allow him to resign, should tell you volumes of the problems that the organization had to deal with that most of us did not know about. This gentleman had several years to make changes and improve the relationship between him, the membership and the board. Why he did not is beyond me. But he did have the opportunity. I think he was trying to make some changes but I think he burned way too many bridges and his efforts were way too late. My personal experience was just fine with him. I was uncomfortable with some of the issues that I mentioned above, but I always felt he treated me fair and listened to my concerns and made efforts to fix issues I felt needed to be fixed. I personally believe that this guy was not in total control of his destiny. He was being used by a more dominant force and it was not the USAA, USOC, archers nor the membership. Finally, what is done is done. We can complain about it or we can see where this new group is directing us. I think you will be pleasantly surprised that all they will be doing is organizing the USAA so that it comes back to being our organization with solid direction and understanding of all of our programs. Not this fractured unmanageable disorganized organization that we have come to know and distrust. 

Grants, funds, support. In particular, Easton grants. 
Denise Parker did a great job easing the tension between Easton and the USAA. Our former CEO did nothing to encourage any support. From what I hear there were many groups that wanted to support the USAA but refused to deal with someone as incompetent as our ex-director. Case in point; Easton used to support the NAA at $50,000 per year as a USAT and NAA Championship Tournament Sponsor. During the last several years, that sponsorship dropped to $5000 per year. If that is not a sign of contempt on Easton’s side, I don’t know what is. And it was a sign of desperation by the USAA Board to allow it to happen. Now, our current Interim CEO has a historically good relationship with the Easton family and I am sure since the company knows her ethics, knowledge and desire she was able to turn Eaton around to beginning a trusting relationship again. The “no strings attached” grant is a sign of her efforts and I thank her for that as well as commend her efforts. Good job DP!  As for the college grant…our ex-CEO was supposed to make sure groups were to write and request financial support from the Easton Foundation via through him. Loretta decided to bypass our beloved Ex and submit the grant directly and received the support she requested. I am not sure if she received all of it, but God Bless her for taking the initiative going directly to the foundation and receiving such a gracious grant. Thank you Loretta for having the foresight to get this grant for the College division. 

This board is one of the more logical thinking, hard working and thoughtful group the USAA has had in a very long time. Most of the decisions made so far have been a huge step in the right direction in helping archers of all levels to enjoy the sport we so love. There is becoming less dissention among the groups and this is good for the archers, the sport and the organization. It appears that the Board is giving Lee another chance but with better support for him. Infrastructure is very critical for a successful program and that is just what the USAA is trying to accomplish.


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## jfishofco (Mar 14, 2007)

That was very well put Rick. What is past is past let's all move on to the future!! It looks like DP is off to a great start...


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

A big THANK YOU to EASTON for the grants, and all the folks involved in getting them. However they,EASTON, does have an obvious vested interest. Just out of curiosity, and in the name of "transparency", what other Corporate grants,sponsors, contribute to USAA/NAA?


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

Keep up the good work Denise. :thumbs_up


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I received a note from our ex-HPD explaining about taking the Manager’s position in several events. He was encouraged to take those positions by those who were in charge. He felt that the Manager’s position is no picnic which I agree. However, this is just a simple example of perceptions that could have been thwarted if there was more transparency. Archers were upset and the ex-HPD really did not want to be in those positions, but felt obligated to satisfy the powers above. 

Years ago we had an educational program in place where if a person wanted to become a manager they would work their way up through the system through a network of checks and balances. The program was very successful. However, some were able to circumvent the system in which they usually ended up failing and causing stress all around. They had little experience and you are dealing with some real pressure packed groups of archers who were trying to focus on the championship event. Several of these “managers” received horrible critiques and most were so upset with how things went that they vowed never to be a manager again. It’s sad because some of them could have developed into great managers. There was a reason for the system but today it no longer exists.



pencarrow said:


> Just out of curiosity, and in the name of "transparency", what other Corporate grants,sponsors, contribute to USAA/NAA?


Grants, funds and donations have been very sparse and minimal over the past 12 years. Most sponsors who are listed on our current USAT Sponsor program are USOC sponsors who give “discounts” on their items such as plane tickets or clothing. Even most of the archery manufacturers do not give money, only “discounts” to USAT team members on product. Hardly any cash has been involved that I am aware of, mostly VIK (value in kind or product support). It is a very sad state of affairs, but Denise should be able to turn it around rather quickly if given the chance. Her outstanding reputation should open several doors for those manufacturers who would be interested in participating.


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## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

So Rick Why do you not put some of your MO JO into the fund raising arena. What is good for the NAA should be very good for your endeavors.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

comp1 said:


> So Rick Why do you not put some of your MO JO into the fund raising arena. What is good for the NAA should be very good for your endeavors.


Good question! :smile: As many of you know, I was the fund raiser from 1984 to 1996. In 1995 one of the things the president of the NAA at the time wanted to do was hire a “professional” Executive Director who would be the fund raiser as well. Obviously, I was not a candidate for the job due to my direct approach of calling many of the board members self serving idiots. (I thought it was my inner mind that said it but it must have been my outer voice that spoke it). However, I did leave all of the details of how to raise funds for all of the programs I was involved in. Unfortunately, most of that material was either thrown out or lost while moving the office from the USOC complex to the current USAA location. I moved on to run Carbon Tech and have been here ever since. My time is rather limited to do much else. However, I did offer to help Denise in any way she needed. I really don’t think she will need much. Her first accomplishment was a whopper! It took me a couple of years to land a good deal with Easton. And finally you could see the conflict I would bring if I had to go talk to Easton or Hoyt whom most of the group would rather I just dried up and blew away. The best comment I heard from one was that I should be shot….ohhh where’s the love….:mg:


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## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

I understand that inner mind outer voices thing. I just was not aware there is a difrence.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> Good question! :smile: As many of you know, I was the fund raiser from 1984 to 1996. In 1995 one of the things the president of the NAA at the time wanted to do was hire a “professional” Executive Director who would be the fund raiser as well. Obviously, I was not a candidate for the job due to my direct approach of calling many of the board members self serving idiots. (I thought it was my inner mind that said it but it must have been my outer voice that spoke it). However, I did leave all of the details of how to raise funds for all of the programs I was involved in. Unfortunately, most of that material was either thrown out or lost while moving the office from the USOC complex to the current USAA location. I moved on to run Carbon Tech and have been here ever since. My time is rather limited to do much else. However, I did offer to help Denise in any way she needed. I really don’t think she will need much. Her first accomplishment was a whopper! It took me a couple of years to land a good deal with Easton. And finally you could see the conflict I would bring if I had to go talk to Easton or Hoyt whom most of the group would rather I just dried up and blew away. The best comment I heard from one was that I should be shot….ohhh where’s the love….:mg:


Well, I for one love reading your stuff, if that counts in any way. 

It's interesting to hear your view on the transparency issue at this particular time. There are a lot of eyes right now wide open over the Obama McCain slaughter, that are attributing more than a little of it's success to the use of internet media and interactive approach to informing voters of what is going on. The words "Blackberry Campaign" have been bandied about up here and don't be surprised to it in poly sci texts in the next few years.

As a much smaller org governing a much smaller constituency it may not be a bad idea for USAA to, quite literally "Get with the Program" and build a communication infrastructure which levels out much of the insider only input so commonly used in the past to render decisions.

We are on a Socio/Technological Cusp, and an org serving such a large geographical area would be foolish not to push it for all its worth.



.......Now where did I put Shepley's Blackberry addy???


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Well, I for one love reading your stuff, if that counts in any way.
> 
> It's interesting to hear your view on the transparency issue at this particular time. .... The words "Blackberry Campaign" have been bandied about up here and don't be surprised to it in poly sci texts in the next few years.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comments. I know we are a bit off topic but it is enjoyable talking with you folks. 

I think you are on to something here. The internet will allow a lot of transparency and provide much more opportunity to glean some great ideas from people you would never have the possibility to get information out of (or funds….). Denise is young enough to be very accomplished in the communication world and has so much talent you would be very amazed by her. I sure was. I hired Denise as Editor when I was part owner of Archery Focus Magazine. When I interviewed her for the job she had to convince me she was not the 14 year old Olympian I wanted her to remain (she really was precious!). At that time she just received her bachelor’s degree in Business Administration. I told her that some companies whom she interned for were not impressed with her work ethics. They considered her lazy. She told me she felt unchallenged by them and wanted to prove she could do the job. So…she was hired….and she kicked butt at Archery Focus and did a great job until she was hired at Hoyt as a PR something or other. She did both jobs for awhile until I was able to sell the company to Steve and Claudia. Then her work with the Archery Trade Association (ATA) showed a lot of poise and professionalism and the growth of the Association during that time was excellent. We are lucky to have her and I hope she hits a grand slam with the USAA. It will be good for all of us.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> Thanks for the comments. I know we are a bit off topic but it is enjoyable talking with you folks.
> 
> I think you are on to something here. The internet will allow a lot of transparency and provide much more opportunity to glean some great ideas from people you would never have the possibility to get information out of (or funds….). Denise is young enough to be very accomplished in the communication world and has so much talent you would be very amazed by her. I sure was. I hired Denise as Editor when I was part owner of Archery Focus Magazine. When I interviewed her for the job she had to convince me she was not the 14 year old Olympian I wanted her to remain (she really was precious!). At that time she just received her bachelor’s degree in Business Administration. I told her that some companies whom she interned for were not impressed with her work ethics. They considered her lazy. She told me she felt unchallenged by them and wanted to prove she could do the job. So…she was hired….and she kicked butt at Archery Focus and did a great job until she was hired at Hoyt as a PR something or other. She did both jobs for awhile until I was able to sell the company to Steve and Claudia. Then her work with the Archery Trade Association (ATA) showed a lot of poise and professionalism and the growth of the Association during that time was excellent. We are lucky to have her and I hope she hits a grand slam with the USAA. It will be good for all of us.


It never ceases to amuse me that a technology which was born for no other purpose than to allow collaborative work and direct peer interaction is only now finding itself being used for those purposes in the public sector.

The advantages of being able to train and pick the brains of a coach or two without having to travel cross country seem to be lost at the national org level (and I am not singling out USAA here) you could conceivably train an Olympic contender in any locale. (Myriam Bedard's Biathalon medal was proof of that some years ago. Though the COC pressured here relentlessly to disclose the id of her coach. And that was via FAX with no audio or video imagine the possibilities now

I'd love to hear Denise's version of that particular interview, any chance you could get her to post up a counterpoint?:

It is seriously a good thing to see someone with "legs" in the industry moving into that position. I hope that tightens up the community all round and cannot help but enhance the orgs position.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> It never ceases to amuse me that a technology which was born for no other purpose than to allow collaborative work and direct peer interaction is only now finding itself being used for those purposes in the public sector.
> 
> The advantages of being able to train and pick the brains of a coach or two without having to travel cross country seem to be lost at the national org level (and I am not singling out USAA here) you could conceivably train an Olympic contender in any locale. (Myriam Bedard's Biathalon medal was proof of that some years ago. Though the COC pressured here relentlessly to disclose the id of her coach. And that was via FAX with no audio or video imagine the possibilities now
> 
> ...


Y'all are behind the power curve. We've been using virtual coaching (internet based web cam sessions) with Jr. Dream Team archers for about 9 months now...the results are great.

As far as USA Archery moving ahead, as long as the membership pulls the roadblocks and disention out of the way and offers the board and HP Team their support, we will move ahead.


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> It never ceases to amuse me that a technology which was born for no other purpose than to allow collaborative work and direct peer interaction is only now finding itself being used for those purposes in the public sector.
> 
> The advantages of being able to train and pick the brains of a coach or two without having to travel cross country seem to be lost at the national org level (and I am not singling out USAA here) you could conceivably train an Olympic contender in any locale.


Mr Black Magic,
You are misinformed. For the better part of the past year, my daughter has been coached by coach Lee's staff via the internet using skype. Each week she has a virtual coaching session with a Dream Team coach and the results have been fantastic. 

Denise Parker will only be successful if we get behind her and the organization. The constant negativity, much of it misinformed, does not help our athletes or the high performance program.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

JDT_Dad said:


> Mr Black Magic,
> You are misinformed. For the better part of the past year, my daughter has been coached by coach Lee's staff via the internet using skype. Each week she has a virtual coaching session with a Dream Team coach and the results have been fantastic.
> 
> Denise Parker will only be successful if we get behind her and the organization. The constant negativity, much of it misinformed, does not help our athletes or the high performance program.


Thats excellent news. Would be great if there were a repository online with the sessions so you could view the system in action. A little editing and permission from the parties involved of course, and you would have one heck of a marketing tool for the sport.


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Thats excellent news. Would be great if there were a repository online with the sessions so you could view the system in action. A little editing and permission from the parties involved of course, and you would have one heck of a marketing tool for the sport.


I love the idea, but unfortunately, Skype doesn't allow us to archive the sessions, so we can't create an online repository. Sure would be a great idea if it were possible. 

I think the fact that archers receive on line coaching could be a good marketing tool for the Junior Dream Team and most likely should be reflected on the Junior Dream Team web site. 

Thanks for the suggestion!


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

JDT_Dad said:


> I love the idea, but unfortunately, Skype doesn't allow us to archive the sessions, so we can't create an online repository. Sure would be a great idea if it were possible.
> 
> I think the fact that archers receive on line coaching could be a good marketing tool for the Junior Dream Team and most likely should be reflected on the Junior Dream Team web site.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion!


I think that as coaches begin to embrace 21st century technology and the internet starts to catch on (lol) they will be more comfortable with the virtual experience.

You have to KNOW what you're doing to use these "virtual" techniques and be comfortable and patient enough to sit still for an hour while working with an archer. The picture isn't the best in the world and if the coach isn't good at "cause & affect analysis" the archer won't benefit much from the training.

I do endorse the virtual coaching sessions combined with video analysis beforehand as a fantastic tool. That's a winning combination.

LD


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

JDT_Dad said:


> I love the idea, but unfortunately, Skype doesn't allow us to archive the sessions, so we can't create an online repository. Sure would be a great idea if it were possible.
> 
> I think the fact that archers receive on line coaching could be a good marketing tool for the Junior Dream Team and most likely should be reflected on the Junior Dream Team web site.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion!


Although I have not used it myself, you might want to have a look at this.

http://www.supertintin.com/

There are a lot of capture tools out there so this shouldn't be a big hurdle. A repository would also serve to "flesh out" some of the issues with training techniques which the printed media cannot.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Although I have not used it myself, you might want to have a look at this.
> 
> http://www.supertintin.com/
> 
> There are a lot of capture tools out there so this shouldn't be a big hurdle. A repository would also serve to "flesh out" some of the issues with training techniques which the printed media cannot.


This is all probably for another thread, but coaching sessions aren't usually for general public viewing. Even at JDT Camps any video or pictures taken can't be used except for the observing coach's private use without releases from the archers and parents.

A demo session, of a few minutes of coaching, posted to show the process of virtual coaching is one thing, but to creat a public repository of coaching sessions that can be viewed by anyone is not what I'm in this for. If someone wants to capture the video of their session for reference or posterity, that's great.

If you want to know the nuances of the BEST Method then attend a HP Seminar, find a coach who knows the method or buy the book. Maybe you could ask Brady to just video himself and post all the sessions on youtube so everyone on AT can get come free advice.

Thanks for the link.

LD


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Thats excellent news. Would be great if there were a repository online with the sessions so you could view the system in action. A little editing and permission from the parties involved of course, and you would have one heck of a marketing tool for the sport.


Nope, I don't think you'll talk anyone into airing their training sessions. I know you'd not catch my daughters work being aired in public.

Nor mine, for that matter, should I be training for any purpose.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Huntmaster said:


> Nope, I don't think you'll talk anyone into airing their training sessions. I know you'd not catch my daughters work being aired in public.
> 
> Nor mine, for that matter, should I be training for any purpose.


Thats really a pity. While I can fully understand the concerns you may have, using real life examples to illustrate specific points has a monumentally greater impact than any staged video shoot.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Anyhow back to topic.

Originally the point I tryingy to get at was how can USAA make maximum use of the electronic media in order to stay closer in touch with Members, potential members, Supporters and the general masses?

Any thoughts?


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

ldfalks said:


> A demo session, of a few minutes of coaching, posted to show the process of virtual coaching is one thing, but to creat a public repository of coaching sessions that can be viewed by anyone is not what I'm in this for. If someone wants to capture the video of their session for reference or posterity, that's great.
> 
> LD


ldfalks and Huntmaster,

I agree with both of you 100% on this one. The privacy issues alone would prevent the creation of a public repository of coaching sessions. Recording the sessions for the personal use of the archer might have some value, but that is not what we are discussing here.

Also the nature of the sessions is such that they would be of limited use to members of the general public. Capturing video and audio from the sessions would not convey the all the information which is contained in the skype session. For example, video of the archer shot in the days leading up to the skype session and being viewed by both the coach and archer during the skype session would not be captured. It would not be an easy task for the coaches to put together sessions which could stand on their own without a whole bunch of extra work.

I do think that advertising the fact that these sessions are taking place could be a positive for the program. A small mention of the skype sessions on the JDT web site would be a positive thing to do in as much as it shows members of the general public that technology is already being put to good use by the high performance program. When you are doing things right, it doesn't hurt to do a little bragging!


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

I agree with the idea of posting on the JDT web site. Only problem there is getting ANYTHING posted on it.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> .... using real life examples to illustrate specific points has a monumentally greater impact than any staged video shoot.


 That is a rather quaint notion. Why would you think that?


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

TexARC said:


> That is a rather quaint notion. Why would you think that?


I would kindly refer you to watch Wylers original filming of the last flight of the Memphis Belle vs. The Movie of the same name. See which gets the point across best.

Body language and interactional synchrony are near impossible to fake.


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## coach1 (Apr 14, 2003)

*JDT Web Site*



ldfalks said:


> I agree with the idea of posting on the JDT web site. Only problem there is getting ANYTHING posted on it.


Dee,

This would be much better handled privately. However, since the identity of the webmaster (me) is known publically and you made the comment publicly I will respond here, 

To date, including you, I have received exactly ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, NONE inquiries even curious why something has not been published. I would look internally at where the information is supposed to come from before I made public statements regarding getting ANYTHING posted.

A prerequisite to posting an item on the JDT Website is SUBMITTING an item for posting. The current staff and administration might consider keeping the webmaster in the information loop. Aside from camp photos, the purpose of which is to keep parents engaged and informed what is happening in camp DURING CAMP!!! I am admittedly behind with these photos; however when I get those 1-2 WEEKS AFTER CAMP the urgency is lost! The only other item I have received is a list of names. Which, I cannot publish without permission from the parents. Since email addresses or phone numbers were not provided with the list, obtaining that permission is a WEE BIT difficult. I also need a short biography from each team member, something else I DO NOT have. Updates to bios from retained members – another nice idea. 

I am not sure but additional ideas might include, dates for the next camp BEFORE THE CAMP STARTS. Another novel idea might be copies of any presentations made at camp. How about, updated information regarding achievements? Any other ideas I could go on but, it is YOUR website not mine. 

By the way, there is a part of the website available for tracking training information and expenses for coaches and team members. Since I sent out the original THREE requests for comment I have received exactly ONE response. Incedentially, this area of the site represents a software donation valued at TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS. All the MFG Journyx, Inc. asked for in return was a testimonial to use on their website. Which, in 18 months I have been unable to provide!

Dare I mention the public and PRIVATE team members’ forum where ANY CAOCH OR TEAM MEMBER may POST ANY INFORMATION THEY FEEL RELEVANT! NOT ONE NEW ITEM MONTHS! Yet, I get to spend 5 - 10 minutes per day cleaning out the spam users. 
Did I forget to mention the calendar program that can be maintained by ANYONE! All I need is to know who. 

As a final note the resources required to host the JDT website are not insignificant. My Company freely provides and maintains the Development, Web server, SQL Server, Calendar software, Forum software, and storage space. Journyx, inc. donated the time and expense tracking software. Development plans include a repository for video for internal use of the coaches and Team members. I put this phase on hold when I stopped receiving information updates. 

Not one of the current coaches or staff has inquired about what is available nor have they made any suggestions or submissions for content. An old wise man once said something about casting stones while living in glass houses. My Company, Dolphin Systems and Myself are here as resources and support for the JDT program. How the STAFF utilizes those resources Coach Lee and the Staff.

Feel free to contact me anytime.

Sincerely,

Gary Holstein, President
Dolphin Systems
www.dolphin-sys.com
(949) 334-1285 office
(949) 334-1287 FAX
(714) 264-7299 Cell
[email protected]


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

coach1 said:


> Dee,
> 
> This would be much better handled privately. However, since the identity of the webmaster (me) is known publically and you made the comment publicly I will respond here,
> 
> ...


You're right. You should have handled this privately. I know someone who would be glad to help with the JDT site. I wish you had said something to someone months ago, so we could have found you help and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. If you're interested in transfering the responsibility, let me know and I'll get you in touch with each other.

P.S. When you ask for and get information from the JDT Staff andn then you don't do anything with it, I don't think it's incumbent upon me to "inquire" why you haven't published the info you asked for. We send it, you put it on the site...done deal and evereyone's happy. That's the way it's supposed to work.

LD


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## coach1 (Apr 14, 2003)

ldfalks said:


> You're right. You should have handled this privately.


I am aware I am right. However to respond privately would not provide the transparency of the issue to all readers. Instead, it would have left the appearence that the true root of the issue is poor service. Thank you anyway but since that is not the case here I would prefer that those type of inferences and statements not be made. 




ldfalks said:


> P.S. When you ask for and get information from the JDT Staff andn then you don't do anything with it, I don't think it's incumbent upon me to "inquire" why you haven't published the info you asked for. We send it, you put it on the site...done deal and evereyone's happy. That's the
> way it's supposed to work.
> 
> LD


With the exception of the photos from the last two camps. I have not received ANY information I CAN publish. I will not put myself or my company at risk for publishing information of minors without all the i's dotted and the t's crossed.

Incidently it is not the responsibility of any webmaster to plead for information it is the responsibility of the program to PROVIDE. 

Finally, at no point did I infer that this was a burden. 

Gary

PS check your PM


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Hmmmm said:


> That is funny.
> 
> You Have not been around long have you.
> 
> ...


Personally I think supporting archery at the college level does FAR, FAR more to grow the sport then any other brand of youth archery. College students tend to be hungry for activities and willing to try new things. And quite soon they will be college graduates earning income . . that they can use to participate in sports. They are probably far more likely to remain a life-long archery then a kid who gets excited about JOAD for a few weeks when he or she is 14 and then forget about forever.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

USAA Update:
http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/USAA Job Postings Cutoff Date.pdf



Serious Fun said:


> “Thanksgiving announcements” www.usarchery.org 11-26-08
> *Easton Sports Development Foundation* Provides USAA with Grants http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/ESDF 307k Contribution USAA.pdf
> Acting *CEO Update* to Membership http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/Letter_dp_112608.pdf
> *CEO* Job Posting http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/Chief Executive Officer.pdf
> ...


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## Archerycat (Mar 1, 2007)

*Cutoff?*



Serious Fun said:


> USAA Update:
> http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/USAA Job Postings Cutoff Date.pdf


I wonder how many applications they have received. I know of one person that applie.

:shade:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Olsenck said:


> An interesting observation (that someone pointed out to me, but I agree with 100%):
> 
> Threads like this bring the alters to life. Alters = those who prefer not to make their opinions and thoughts known using their primary account or real name.
> 
> ...


Yes, I smell a


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*USAA Instructor Coach Certification*

USAA Instructor Coach Certification; Message and Program Description.
http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/12-30-08_Coaching_Certification_FINAL.pdf


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Given most of us coaching never recoup the thousands we have spent on getting certifications Bob, tell me what I gain by having to spend a week of vacation EACH YEAR at a dream camp to maintain my Level III? I hate to tell you but all I see the NAA doing is doing the best it can to eliminate as many of us as possible from being "certified coaches".

SO be it-I am tired of the constant changing whims of the NAA and the people who run it. I am not going to play this idiotic game anymore


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Oh expletive! Now I have to take 2 courses and spend hundreds to get recertified for 1 year! I guess my certification is going to expire and my JOAD will fold or the kids will be left with the guy who's been shooting trad for a year and got a level 2.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Boltsmyth said:


> Oh expletive! Now I have to take 2 courses and spend hundreds to get recertified for 1 year! I guess my certification is going to expire and my JOAD will fold or the kids will be left with the guy who's been shooting trad for a year and got a level 2.


Well, regardless of whether the new requirements are unreasonable or not, you don't have to be a CC to run a JOAD--as you point out--so why would you have to fold your JOAD program up? But, I do see the new program as possibly being counter productive and reducing the number of people who bother getting above an L2.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Warbow said:


> Well, regardless of whether the new requirements are unreasonable or not, you don't have to be a CC to run a JOAD--as you point out--so why would you have to fold your JOAD program up? But, I do see the new program as possibly being counter productive and reducing the number of people who bother getting above an L2.


Trust me-I see it coming to that-if you aren't currently certified you cannot run a joad club. It is counter-productive and short-sighted.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Given most of us coaching never recoup the thousands we have spent on getting certifications Bob, tell me what I gain by having to spend a week of vacation EACH YEAR at a dream camp to maintain my Level III? I hate to tell you but all I see the NAA doing is doing the best it can to eliminate as many of us as possible from being "certified coaches".
> 
> SO be it-I am tired of the constant changing whims of the NAA and the people who run it. I am not going to play this idiotic game anymore


Ditto what Jim said. That sound you hear is the sound of many volunteer archery coaches leaving the room to find some other way to make a difference with young people. In this economy, where archery is certainly not a necessity, making it harder to attract good passionate volunteer coaches is counterproductive to the growth of the sport. As Jim says it is impossible in this economy to justify spending thousands of dollars on certifications, and attending events with the kids you work with when those dollars are needed elsewhere. The annual recertification is overkill. From the document referenced it looks like I will just devolve to the Intermediate Instructor with the four year renewal. I think the CAP program will take me, at least until those rules change.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

For JOAD clubs, I am looking forward to an increase in the numbers of certified coaches.
Many could not schedule time and travel for a week long out of town Level 3 coaching course.

The Community Coach certification requires about three days (a long weekend, over two weekends, three Saturdays, etc. very flexible).
Just as large groups are trained locally and certified as Intermediate instructors, now large groups can be trained locally and certified as Community Coaches.
For JOAD, a larger pool of coaches helps clubs to provide and sustain a quality year around JOAD club program.


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## Archerycat (Mar 1, 2007)

*Call or Write USA Archery*

This board is great for voicing opinions, but I think if we all really don’t like what’s happening we should call USA Archery.

I called them yesterday to ask if coaches who have already completed their levels are going to be grandfathered in. The person I spoke to was extremely open and friendly about discussing my concerns. They told me that they are still working on how to bring the current coaches up to date without making use retake expensive classes AGAIN.
I was told to give them a chance to get things straighter out.

A friend of mine who know Dennis Parker told me that she is very reasonable and would talk to anyone who had concerns or questions so I suggest calling or email her.

I think we should all stop complaining/worrying to people who can’t change anything and start expressing our concerns to USA Archery. I know I am going to hear that they won’t listen or nothing will change, but if all the coaches stick together I truly believe that someone will have to listen to out concerns.

Just my 2 cents.
:shade:


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

Serious Fun said:


> For JOAD clubs, I am looking forward to an increase in the numbers of certified coaches.
> Many could not schedule time and travel for a week long out of town Level 3 coaching course.
> 
> The Community Coach certification requires about three days (a long weekend, over two weekends, three Saturdays, etc. very flexible).
> ...


I'd love to obtain the Community Coaches certification. For now, I only see about 3-4 classes scheduled for 2009. The closest to me is 9 hours away. I don't see a payback to my spending a minimum of $600 and 3 vacation days to take the class. Hopefully CC classes will become more readily available locally, and it will make economic sense to get the certification. For now I'll just stay with my L-II. 

BTW, there is no info on either the usarchery.org or worldarchery.org websites linking to the "community coaching" website that lists scheduled classes. To meet, it looks like a very gray area that neither group wants to take responsibility for.

I would like to see hard data from NADA and NAA as to the number of JOAD clubs, the number of active instructors and coaches, and the number of JOAD clubs led by instructors vs. led by coaches (community or higher). My gut tells me that a lot more clubs a founded and led by instructors than coaches. 

Why do you have to be a coach to "...provide and sustain a quality year around JOAD club program."? Aren't instructors good enough? If all of the instructors drop out of the JOAD programs, who's going to be left to coach? Maybe NAA and NADA need to start looking after the instructors, or there won't be anyone left to keep the "Olympic farm system" going.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Steve N said:


> I'd love to obtain the Community Coaches certification. For now, I only see about 3-4 classes scheduled for 2009. The closest to me is 9 hours away. I don't see a payback to my spending a minimum of $600 and 3 vacation days to take the class. Hopefully CC classes will become more readily available locally, and it will make economic sense to get the certification. For now I'll just stay with my L-II.
> 
> BTW, there is no info on either the usarchery.org or worldarchery.org websites linking to the "community coaching" website that lists scheduled classes. To meet, it looks like a very gray area that neither group wants to take responsibility for.
> 
> ...


Steve,

Over time the number of Level 3 coaches in AZ has dwindled to a small handful.
It was just too difficult to become Level 3.
A week of vacation, ASEP Course, all was costly in time and dollars plus there were very few Level 3 courses ever offered.

The Arizona State Archery Association is planning on bringing a Community Coach Trainer to Arizona.
Most Arizonans can drive to Phoenix in a ½ day.
The hope is to train and certify a large group of Community coaches.
The Community Coaches will then be able to teach more Intermediate Instructor courses.

The Arizona State Archery Association leadership believes that Intermediate instructors are key to a successful club.
They are archers, parents and supporters that take the time to become certified and run JOAD clubs. We need more Intermediate instructors club leaders.

My hope is that state associations across the country host a series of local Intermediate Instructor courses and Community Coach courses. 
I suggest the goal be to keep driving to less than a 300 mile distance in the west and Texas, less in the east.

It’s a small thing but notice how ASEP is not required for CCC, which make Community Coach Certification that much less time consuming and less costly.
http://www.asep.com/asep_content/org/USAA.cfm


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Warbow,

You're right. I'm just frustrated.

By the way I also coach gymnastics. I get paid for coaching and I get paid for trainings I attend. Imagine that LOLOL.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Boltsmyth said:


> Warbow,
> 
> You're right. I'm just frustrated.
> 
> By the way I also coach gymnastics. I get paid for coaching and I get paid for trainings I attend. Imagine that LOLOL.


Boltsmyth,
Who pays the gymnastics coach and how much are gymnastics coach paid?
Does payment limit the number of people that have a chance to be coached by you, or does it increase the number because you are able to devote more time to gymnastics coaching because you are paid well?


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Warbow,

Coaches are paid by the Gym they work for. Some are privately owned and some are clubs. Most of the younger coaches, teens and college kids, get$10 - $20 and hour. I get more because of my experience and I am not an elite coach. The student's parents pay quite a bit. I consider it expensive but they are willing to pay. My own kids get free classes while I teach. There is no shortage of students and most gyms limit class size to 6 to 8. Several classes will circulate to different pieces of apparatus during a session. There is often a shortage of instructors.

The amount of time and students (classes) coached by me is limited only by my inclination and free time. I've gone months and years not coaching gymnastics but get drawn back again. The pay doesn't do much for me as I am employed elsewhere full time. Its just nicer to get something than to be constantly paying for the privilage of coaching as in archery. I'm sure there are at least a couple of gyms in your town. Check them out.


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Boltsmyth said:


> Warbow,
> 
> Coaches are paid by the Gym they work for. Some are privately owned and some are clubs. Most of the younger coaches, teens and college kids, get$10 - $20 and hour. I get more because of my experience and I am not an elite coach. The student's parents pay quite a bit. I consider it expensive but they are willing to pay. My own kids get free classes while I teach. There is no shortage of students and most gyms limit class size to 6 to 8. Several classes will circulate to different pieces of apparatus during a session. There is often a shortage of instructors.
> 
> The amount of time and students (classes) coached by me is limited only by my inclination and free time. I've gone months and years not coaching gymnastics but get drawn back again. The pay doesn't do much for me as I am employed elsewhere full time. Its just nicer to get something than to be constantly paying for the privilage of coaching as in archery. I'm sure there are at least a couple of gyms in your town. Check them out.


There is a little thread bleed over…
One of the eastern European gymnast Olympic medalist was associated with a gymnastic club in my area. I was shocked at the prices just as I was for a local youth hockey league. I don’t have the exact figures as I was in sticker shock. I said to myself, our parents would never pay that. That was in 2002 when I failed to recognize that there could and should be different levels of programs for the different levels of interest and exposure. Then and know, there is a demand and a willingness to pay for quality just as there is a need for affordable introductory programs. 

Today there is NASP which is practically free for parents as the State DNRs and Game and Fish Departments lend fund and administration support. Many states have the very affordable 4H program. Scouts do a great job affordably too. Community Parks and Recreation Departments are offering ASAP in ever increasing numbers which is another economical option.

What I am taking a long time to get to is that JOAD may be able to refine its position in the archery development continuum. JOADs will likely always need to provide a beginners program and a transition curriculum. Perhaps the JOAD program can simply utilize the ASAP curriculum for beginners and transitionals and avoid reinventing the wheel. A youth could then convert from a probationary JOAD club member to a full member should they decide to continue on to a JOAD clubs year around program. Many parents want to pay for enhanced coaching, programs, and travel after their child shows they are more than curious about archery and have been advised by a instructor or coach that “your kid has potential”. After ASAP (something like 8-12 weeks depending on the offering), many youths will likely gravitate to Hunting or 3D or the NFAA indoor and Field events, and that’s a okay. USAA JOAD is the place for ongoing youth socialization and character development leading too, and including, Olympic and World Archery.

What I am jazzed about is the hope that all the different organizations and associations can collaborate, coordinate and leverage focus to a provide youth and their parents with clear defined choices. I think archery community as a whole realizes or is beginning to realize that no one group can do it all by themselves. Every groups volunteers pool is stretched thin. If we all can pick up just a part of the load, I am confident “we” will succeed. 

To do so we must be willing to delegate, recognizing that it might not be the way we would have done it but it got done none the less. In many cases, others are much more knowledgeable, imaginative and suited. I doubt if a bunch of FITA unlimited compound and Olympic bow archers would have come to the realization that fingers compound bare bow with three fingers below the arrow is the key to archery in the schools. Thank goodness NASP had the vision!

Even more: I wonder if portions of world team level development should be beyond JOAD. Is it reasonable to mix individual development based on skill and world team round training? 
I wonder if the strong representation of compound archer in the NFAA might lead to NFAA support of World Championship team members. 
The dividing lines will get fuzzy and perhaps fade away as we unite for a common goal.


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## Sappo (Apr 30, 2008)

I am new to this JOAD and coaching stuff and I must admit I know very little about the NAA. I do know from experience with certifying associations I have been a technical dive instructor now for 3 years. From my experience if you don't like something leave it and start your own, I may be wrong but what would it take to start a different program to teach kids and adults Olympic style archery. 
I would start from the top finding out what are the rules and guide lines for coaches and their students to enter the Olympics. This is why IANTD started and is now a thriving technical SCUBA Assoc. 

Then again I may be wrong!!!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> Perhaps the JOAD program can simply utilize the ASAP curriculum for beginners and transitionals and avoid reinventing the wheel. ...
> 
> I doubt if a bunch of FITA unlimited compound and Olympic bow archers would have come to the realization that fingers compound bare bow with three fingers below the arrow is the key to archery in the schools. Thank goodness NASP had the vision!
> 
> ...


I wish all these disparate curricula were posted in a basic comparason chart...

I guess the transition from 3 under compound to JOAD was one of the complains that was voiced in the FITA forum. One parent and kid were quite annoyed to be so successful at NASP and then to be shown a different system at a JOAD club.

I don't know what to say. It is great that the system works for NASP, but what about the transition? We still do similar things in the regular schooling of kids, for instance, teaching them one way to write (block printing) then another entirely different way to write (Palmer Cursive--based on 18th Century penmanship, which was in turn based on 18th Century copper engraving styles, that is, created to look fancy)--and all for nothing, because there are simple systems to teach kids easy block style letters that can later be easily formed into an attractive and legible italic running hand. Teaching kids twice for the sake of expediency rather than right the first time can be counter productive.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I wish all these disparate curricula were posted in a basic comparason chart...
> 
> I guess the transition from 3 under compound to JOAD was one of the complains that was voiced in the FITA forum. One parent and kid were quite annoyed to be so successful at NASP and then to be shown a different system at a JOAD club.
> 
> I don't know what to say. It is great that the system works for NASP, but what about the transition? We still do similar things in the regular schooling of kids, for instance, teaching them one way to write (block printing) then another entirely different way to write (Palmer Cursive--based on 18th Century penmanship, which was in turn based on 18th Century copper engraving styles, that is, created to look fancy)--and all for nothing, because there are simple systems to teach kids easy block style letters that can later be easily formed into an attractive and legible italic running hand. Teaching kids twice for the sake of expediency rather than right the first time can be counter productive.


Now we are getting somewhere.

The ATA Summit hosted by the Archery Trade Association www.archerytrade.org in December of 08 was an eye opening experience. Hunters, State DNRs and game and fish departments, archery manufacturers, suppliers, retailers, archers with disabilities, clubs, at risks youth programs, ranges, Parks and Recreation, ESDF, NADA, NFAA, ASA, IBO, NASP, ATA and the USAA (including USAA CAP and USAA JOAD) were all represented. Many presented their programs. What a wonderful community to be a part of. Have I mentioned that NASP is huge? What is universal is that all know that we need to do a better job and improve, grow and provide as soon as possible to serve the demand that is not being met. 

I don’t know if the archery community is willing to establish and empower an archery confederation, clearing house, or steering committee of some sort to coordinate efforts. An empowered leadership that coordinates without bias, prejudice, preconception or favoritism would be a wonderful thing to make all of us more efficient. Such leadership could create a community sanctioned organization and flow chart that has community wide buy in. Today there is no such empowerment. Just the ranting of a old JOAD dad…


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## Steve Ruis (Oct 4, 2002)

*Now, Bob!*



Serious Fun said:


> I don’t know if the archery community is willing to establish and empower an archery confederation, clearing house, or steering committee of some sort to coordinate efforts. An empowered leadership that coordinates without bias, prejudice, preconception or favoritism would be a wonderful thing to make all of us more efficient. Such leadership could create a community sanctioned organization and flow chart that has community wide buy in. Today there is no such empowerment. Just the ranting of a old JOAD dad…


If you build it they will come.

Consider the PGA 10,000 coaches, 500 pros. The PGA got to where it is by committing to coaching ... for pay. Volunteering is wonderful, but once you start doing it on a regular basis, well, this is the USA--get paid. We started out charging kids $6 per lesson with some trepidation but got up to $15 per lesson four years later. An archery lesson should cost at least as much as a movie plus snack for a kid. And we piad all of our coaches.

And, you have earned your rants, so rant away.

If you build it they will come.


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## Sappo (Apr 30, 2008)

Sappo said:


> I am new to this JOAD and coaching stuff and I must admit I know very little about the NAA. I do know from experience with certifying associations I have been a technical dive instructor now for 3 years. From my experience if you don't like something leave it and start your own, I may be wrong but what would it take to start a different program to teach kids and adults Olympic style archery.
> I would start from the top finding out what are the rules and guide lines for coaches and their students to enter the Olympics. This is why IANTD started and is now a thriving technical SCUBA Assoc.
> 
> Then again I may be wrong!!!


sorry I posted this in the wrong thread


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Serious Fun said:


> Now we are getting somewhere.
> 
> The ATA Summit hosted by the Archery Trade Association www.archerytrade.org in December of 08 was an eye opening experience. Hunters, State DNRs and game and fish departments, archery manufacturers, suppliers, retailers, archers with disabilities, clubs, at risks youth programs, ranges, Parks and Recreation, ESDF, NADA, NFAA, ASA, IBO, NASP, ATA and the USAA (including USAA CAP and USAA JOAD) were all represented. Many presented their programs. What a wonderful community to be a part of. Have I mentioned that NASP is huge? What is universal is that all know that we need to do a better job and improve, grow and provide as soon as possible to serve the demand that is not being met.
> 
> I don’t know if the archery community is willing to establish and empower an archery confederation, clearing house, or steering committee of some sort to coordinate efforts. An empowered leadership that coordinates without bias, prejudice, preconception or favoritism would be a wonderful thing to make all of us more efficient. Such leadership could create a community sanctioned organization and flow chart that has community wide buy in. Today there is no such empowerment. Just the ranting of a old JOAD dad…


Were there any actual numbers presented there? Can you define huge with regards to NASP? I'd love to see some overall numbers all the way down the line to get some stats on how these programs are working and where the potential archers are flowing to.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Were there any actual numbers presented there? Can you define huge with regards to NASP? I'd love to see some overall numbers all the way down the line to get some stats on how these programs are working and where the potential archers are flowing to.


Take a look at post #64. As far as I can tell, no one entity is empowered to create a sanctioned comprehensive community wide “organization chart”. 

As for the actual data, the ATA provide a data package and almost all the presenters used power point. I believe the ATA intends to disseminate the information formally.
Here is 08 ATA Summit information, here a recap.
http://www.archerytrade.org/newsletter/january09/#4
And indicates that “A complete Summit wrap-up will also be featured soon in ArrowTrade, a business magazine covering archery and bowhunting’s retailers, manufacturers and equipment.” 

This is from the NASP website:
http://www.nasparchery.com/activea....ID&cboApplicationID=321&cboFileCategoryID=977
“…Over 3.2 million youth have participated in Archery via the NASP program… Over 5,000 schools have joined.”

Under News and Events on the NASP website, there is a listing for the many scholarships award winners.
http://www.nasparchery.com/activea....ByFileID&cboFileID=5670&cboFileCategoryID=963 
$2500 for some, WOW.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Serious Fun said:


> Take a look at post #64. As far as I can tell, no one entity is empowered to create a sanctioned comprehensive community wide “organization chart”.
> 
> As for the actual data, the ATA provide a data package and almost all the presenters used power point. I believe the ATA intends to disseminate the information formally.
> Here is 08 ATA Summit information, here a recap.
> ...


Thanks for that. I'm rather curious as to how many of the 3.2 meg continue on in some discipline of the sport. Thats a fairly large number to pull from.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Thanks for that. I'm rather curious as to how many of the 3.2 meg continue on in some discipline of the sport. Thats a fairly large number to pull from.


NASP is huge on gathering statistics. State DNR and Game and Fish Deparements are too. There is a lot of information on the NASP and ATA websites.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*USAA Coaching Certification update 1-5-09*

http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/1-5-09 Coaching Certification Update.pdf


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*CEO Update*

CEO Update 1-8-09
http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/CEO Search Update.pdf


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> CEO Update 1-8-09
> http://usarchery.org/userfiles/file/CEO Search Update.pdf


Kind of silly to post a PDF when this is all it says:

F



> OR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> January 8, 2009
> COLORADO SPRINGS, CO – USA Archery has received more than forty (40) resumes for the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) position; and those most qualified will be contacted for interviews by the end of next week.
> 
> Thanks to all candidates for their interest.


IMO, for short messages, text is more useful than a link that has to open up in a PDF viewer.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Warbow, it would be very helpful if you filled out your “about me” profile so the AT forum can better understand your point of view and perspective.

As for pdfs and communications in general. On the JOAD committee, we create pdfs as final drafts and circulate for final review. The pdf insures that everyone can see and review formatted content. Upon approval the pdf can be posted with a minimum of administrative time. Pdf readers are free and readily available. Jpeg and tif format can be equally as effective.
I hope this information helps to peel back some of the logistics layers to better understand the reasons why. Some silliness is worth tolerating if it facilitates speedy effective communications.

Forty CEO applicants, Wow.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> Warbow, it would be very helpful if you filled out your “about me” profile so the AT forum can better understand your point of view and perspective.
> 
> As for pdfs and communications in general. On the JOAD committee, we create pdfs as final drafts and circulate for final review. The pdf insures that everyone can see and review formatted content. Upon approval the pdf can be posted with a minimum of administrative time. Pdf readers are free and readily available. Jpeg and tif format can be equally as effective.
> I hope this information helps to peel back some of the logistics layers to better understand the reasons why. Some silliness is worth tolerating if it facilitates speedy effective communications.
> ...


Given the acrimonious politics shown in this and other threads I feel justified in remaining semi-anonymous on AT. Hopefully the content and quality of my posts will create a sufficient basis for you to judge me on.

As to PDFs. The are a handy format for many purposes, especially for quickly posting existing documents, for documents meant for printing and for larger documents like instructional manuals. But, while it may be speedy for you to post them rather than just pasting the relevant text, it is slower for all of us who have to click on a link to view the content. Kind of like the way the NAA transfers the burden on coaches who have, in the past, to travel to Chula Vista for L3s, rather than sending out a coach to them. Granted, it makes economic and logistical sense for the NAA to have done so, but instead of paying for one person to travel and stay by sending the coach, many people have to pay for travel and lodging. The same goes for the PDF's. It is faster for the NAA, but that speed is only for the poster, not the recipients.

I'm not saying don't post PDFs, but I am saying don't post PDFs of documents that are 1 paragraph long. That is like when people send me a short Word attachment in an email instead of just sending, well, a short **email** that says the same thing.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> Warbow, it would be very helpful if you filled out your “about me” profile so the AT forum can better understand your point of view and perspective.





Warbow said:


> Given the acrimonious politics shown in this and other threads I feel justified in remaining semi-anonymous on AT. Hopefully the content and quality of my posts will create a sufficient basis for you to judge me on.


I thought I gave a pretty reasonable answer to you. You disagreed and sent me an insulting PM to tell me--and you even sent it twice. Perhaps you were worried your insult hadn't gotten through the first time.

General convention here on AT is not to post the contents of PMs. However, I don't hold that convention to be reasonable in the light of being sent an unsolicited insult via PM, for which there is no reasonable expectation of privacy (well, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for any unsolicited text message you **send** to someone), so I don't think that people can reasonably send insults and then claim privacy rights to force the recipient to stay silent about them (wouldn't that be a great racket, were that the case, people could insult other posters at will and with impunity, claiming "immunity" by right of privacy). You certainly can't claim that an unsolicited insult sent via PM was sent in "confidence, " for instance. Anyway, I think your PM is directly relevant to your public "request"/demand that I fill out my profile, which is why I include it here.

Here is what you wrote:


> Serious Fun Serious Fun is online now
> Registered User
> 
> 
> ...


I think you just proved my point, that the politics here may warrant staying semi-anonymous here at AT, especially in the FITA section. I hardly think that insulting me via PM is going to convince I should do as you say and fill out my profile. I'd like to think one of the good things about AT is that we can discuss issues on the merits rather than merely on how high up one may or may not be in the NAA or some other hierarchy. And I'd like to think that discussions can be held without fear of retribution or insulting unsolicited PMs from certain posters.

Perhaps a bit of decorum from the big players in JOAD may be in order.

(BTW, if you aren't happy about having your insult posted publicly, then you shouldn't have written it and sent to me. Get mad at your self, if perchance, you get mad. Or stand behind your insult, or take it back. But don't even try to play the victim. You are the one who sent it, so be man enough to take responsibility.)


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

*Thanks Bob*

First let me say thank you to Bob Pian for all the hard work you do for not only AZ archers but the USAA archery community as a whole. :darkbeer:

It is one thing to have an active archer working hard at their goals and just trying to find something to fill the time while at shoots and a whole other thing to work as hard and spend as much time and personal funds as you do to support the archery community.

There are very few people in the archery community that truly have the best interest of all archers at heart. There is usually a political under tone to most people motives and since I have personally come to know you I have realized that is not your intent at all.

While not everyone may appreciate what you do, I promise you there are more that do appreciate you then don't. So thank you again for everything you do.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

OT:
SeriousFun has written me to say that there has been a communication's mix up and he meant to say that it is too bad that circumstances suggest a need for some people to seek anonymity. I thank him for the follow up and I apologize if my response to his earlier PM's was based on an unintended message.

I enjoy reading from all the perspectives of people here, even those I disagree with. It is amazing to have such a variety of posters, including many experienced people like SeriousFun, Jim C, ldfalks, Rick McKinney, Vittorio etc. posting here. The dialogue can be very informative at times. And, I should point out, even when I, myself, take issue with something that one or another poster writes, I still read there posts with interest.


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