# Hex7 Covert Hunter Launching In Slomo (vid)



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gentlefolk..after publishing the slomo vid of my arrow launching off my Hex7 Ch?...someone elsewhere asked if I could capture a slomo vid of the entire bow as viewed from the side...which I did...this is that vid which I thought I'd share here as well as others may be interested in seeing the limb reaction in slomo as well.

Hope you Enjoy...Bill.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Neat. Just curious. How high is your nock above square?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> Neat. Just curious. How high is your nock above square?


The bottom of my top nock is 5/8ths above the shelf Barney...which appears to be spot-on for me....shafts are .308" O.D.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

As promised on another forum JINKS, here is a video for comparison limb reaction.

Unfortunately, we couldn't (wouldn't) do this outside where the light is better but we have over a foot of snow, and temps in the single digits. 

We tried to position the bow in front of a solid wall in order to catch any movement of the limbs. Not the best video, but I think you can get the idea. 






Setup is a 17" Tradtech Titan riser, Uukha X0 Evo² limbs (med), 40# @ 27.5". Arrows are 29" Beman ICS Bowhunter 500, 125 grain tips, about 9.5 gpp. 

If I get time, maybe I'll see what some of my other limbs look like.


KPC


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Looks like the Uukha's move very little after the shot but it's difficult to tell for sure. KPC, can you do it again but zoom in on either the top or bottom limb? Maybe we could get a better view.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I'll see what I can do Jim.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Here you go Jim. Not the best, but the best I can do while on my knees trying to get positioned into the frame of the camera. The crap we do for science. 

Here is the Titan with the Uukha limbs.






And just for giggles, here is a mid-70's Bear Minuteman. (43# @ 27.5") 

I'm not seeing much movement at all after the shot.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

OOPS! Here is the Bear Minuteman.






KPC


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Wow , talk about dead in hand, !( on the gerep vid)


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The Hex wobble is something I've never been able to tune out. Just the nature of the beast.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Very interesting. Now I'm wondering about the speed of your slow-mo compared to Bill's. Your's looks faster--maybe.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I think it's about the same Jim but if you want to look at mine even slower, click on the gear icon on the bottom bar of the youtube window, then click on speed. I think you can slow it down even more by clicking on .5 or .25. 

KPC


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Thanks for that little lesson, Kevin. I didn't know about the speed change. No doubt the Bear and Uukha limbs are virtually not moving at all compared to that Border. Now... if you want to see something I found even more interesting... watch Bill's video and slow it down to .25. Watch how the riser wobbles back and forth in his hand after the shot. It starts about the 41 second mark.

No one... and I mean no one will convince me you can't feel all that. Very enlightening. I would encourage anyone considering buying one of those to watch that.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Yes, I did notice that but apparently it all depends on how sensitive you are to such things. Apparently some people feel it and some people don't. I'm very sensitive to shock and vibration. That's actually why I always use Limbsavers. It has nothing to do with noise for me, but I find that it takes the "buzz" out of metal risers. 


It appears, at least to me that JINKS' limbs are oscillating all the way down into the fades. I can clearly see the limb flexing down there and the Limbsaver bouncing. Like I said though, if he doesn't feel it, that's all that matters. 

I have a friend that shoots a Hill style longbow. He swears up and down that he can't feel any shock at all. I can shoot it about twice before my elbow starts telling me to stop. It jars my entire upper body. To each their own.

KPC


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

You're being too kind, Kevin. I hear a lot of folks say they NEVER see the arrow, too.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Thanks for that little lesson, Kevin. I didn't know about the speed change. No doubt the Bear and Uukha limbs are virtually not moving at all compared to that Border. Now... if you want to see something I found even more interesting... watch Bill's video and slow it down to .25. Watch how the riser wobbles back and forth in his hand after the shot. It starts about the 41 second mark.
> 
> No one... and I mean no one will convince me you can't feel all that. Very enlightening. I would encourage anyone considering buying one of those to watch that.


Well since folks are giving out free lessons?...here's mine....which I'll entitle....*"Slomo 101"* LOL!

Mr. Casto...it seems you have made your way to 3 different websites to share your discovery of utoobs playback speed adjustment and?...share your staunch opinion of how un-enlightened and ill informed you were by stating...

*" No one... and I mean no one will convince me you can't feel all that. Very enlightening."*

and here's why....

My smartphones video camera boasts a 240fps (Frames Per Second) slow motion "Playback" capability...but the way it achieves that is by the smartphones computerized software "BUILDING" a 240fps playback based on it's video camera's 120fps "Recording" capability whereby?...."It Creates Frame Images"...and does this based on the actual 120fps recorded images preceding and succeeding each image it creates and then?...inserts in between the actual 120fps recorded images thereby rendering a 240fps playback.

Now...by slowing that playback down even further?...it enables you to see those "Software Created Frame Images" which in turn?..."Gives The Appearance"...that my stud of a 17" Triple Carbon Spine CH Riser is..."Flexing"...when in fact it's not...and if it did flex that much?....it would be in at least two pieces if not toothpicks.

The Triple Carbon Spine Riser of the Covert Hunter is the feature that enables Borders to offer up what are wood riser sight windows cut over 1/4" Past Center because of the incredible strength those Triple Carbon Spines endow the riser with and I don't feel that because well?...it's simply not there.

Now...to prove that?...(and a few other things here).....set utoob too .25 playback at 1:20secs in this following realtime/slowmo video of my Blackwarf Rig...and feast your eyes on what appears to be my 21" Blackbear Warf riser..."Flexing"? LOL!

in the "Comment" box....

*This is my Blackbear Warf riser w/ Roberts Custom Black Glass/Amber-Boo core "Short ILF" limbs which makes a 62"/38#@28" bow and puts these 270gr/7.1GPP GT Ultralights across the chronograph at at a staggering 205FPS...the riser was warfed (and "Pocket Loaded") by Sam Dunham and weighs 3lbs/2.2ozs alone...with the limbs, stab, sights and all?...this rig comes in at just under 6lbs and would give most Barebow risers a run for their money...here is how it shoots and behaves in real time and slow motion.*

Here's the vid...






and for a true comparisons sake?...here's my Hex7 Covert Hunter in slomo with a full constrained grip....


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

> Mr. Casto...it seems you have made your way to 3 different websites to share your discovery of utoobs playback speed adjustment and?...share your staunch opinion of how un-enlightened and ill informed you were by stating... " No one... and I mean no one will convince me you can't feel all that. Very enlightening."
> 
> and here's why....


Let's see now. You ALWAYS post the same threads on the LW, here and TradTalk, but if I respond on your thread at all three places, ONCE, and you seem to have some issue with it?



> ...when in fact it's not...and if it did flex that much?....it would be in at least two pieces if not toothpicks....


I never used the word FLEX and I never said the riser was flexing. I said the darn thing wobbled back and forth. Perhaps I should have used the word "rocking" back and forth. The Blackbear riser? It doesn't.


So... I'll say it again. No one... and I mean no one will convince me that the shooter can't feel that.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Let's see now. You ALWAYS post the same threads on the LW, here and TradTalk, but if I respond on your thread at all three places, ONCE, and you seem to have some issue with it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No issues...just "answering the call" so to speak. 

flex?...wobble?...whatever...I can't feel what doesn't exist except in video recreations.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Don't tell me. You never see the arrow either, huh? That's a rhetorical question... btw.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Don't tell me. You never see the arrow either, huh? That's a rhetorical question... btw.


I'm just trying to figure out why you would thank KPC for the lesson of watching his bows reaction at about twice the speed of my slow motion vid yet when I attempt to explain your "wobble" comment and why you see such I get what?.... 

Meanwhile back on the farm?...my warf weighs so much it maxed out my 2,000gm/4.4lb scale even with the stab off but I was able to weight the entire Hex7 Covert Hunter and a bows mass weight is a big player in determining how lively a bow is at the shot...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

vid says it all and bye folks...


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

You didn't need to make a video for me to know a 585 grain arrow is going to out penetrate a 270 grain arrow on a foam target. Why don't you shoot the 585 grain arrow out of the BB warf too, at least then the one constant is the arrow itself.


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

apples and oranges....


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## nmlongbow (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm surprised how much more noodley that CH is compared to the TT setup. Image how bad it would be if you shot that 270 grain arrow out of it. CH limbs probably aren't warranteed for that though unless you use a special string.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Kpc. What camera did you use for your videos?
Also how did you create the slow mo?


Reason i ask this is to find out whats making your videos look like no other bow ive seen in slow mo

17:25 on this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9POb4yahcc

*

look at the NP bobbing up and down.

*

you don't need slow mo.

*

and 25:36
*

this is in NO way a dig at the Bow, the archer, the film producer.

just saying that slow mo exagerates things. 

*


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> and here's why....
> 
> 
> if it did flex that much?....it would be in at least two pieces if not toothpicks.


Give it time...... :caked:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> My smartphones video camera boasts a 240fps (Frames Per Second) slow motion "Playback" capability...but the way it achieves that is by the smartphones computerized software "BUILDING" a 240fps playback based on it's video camera's 120fps "Recording" capability whereby?...."It Creates Frame Images"...and does this based on the actual 120fps recorded images preceding and succeeding each image it creates and then?...inserts in between the actual 120fps recorded images thereby rendering a 240fps playback.
> 
> Now...by slowing that playback down even further?...it enables you to see those "Software Created Frame Images" which in turn?...*"Gives The Appearance"...that my stud of a 17" Triple Carbon Spine CH Riser is..."Flexing"...when in fact it's not...*





JINKSTER said:


> flex?...wobble?...whatever...I can't feel what *doesn't exist except in video recreations*.



First, let me say right up front that I know *less than nothing* about how my iPhone creates slomo videos. That stuff is waaaay above my pay grade. 

Having said that, one thing you said is confusing to me, and that is that the camera is somehow creating movement that isn't actually there. 

Based on your explanation, I think I understand how the camera's software creates images by filling in between actual images. In my mind that would mean that it is "filling in" what you see between one actual image and the following actual image, however if there wasn't any actual movement of the object between those two images, even with the fill in, they would appear stationary. In other words, if point A is in the exact same position as point B, regardless of what the camera renders in between them, the image appears stationary...because it is. 

This is clearly illustrated by looking at the roofline of your house which appears directly behind your top limb in the video.






It never moves, so no matter what your camera's software creates between the *actual* images, the roofline never appears to move. 

If your camera was creating movement that isn't really there, why would it only be on your bow? Why would your bow's movement be distorted but not your body's movement? I don't see your bow arm or your release hand bouncing wildly at the same time your bow tips are, their movement is smooth from point A to point B. If the camera's software was distorting the movement, why does it only distort the bow and nothing else?

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Fourier transormation of the video will mean that the movement between frames will simply made up by the maths.

Its even more complicated by rolling fram capture of a Cmos sensor creating a warped image which is then interpolated, playing with the warp.

I notice you video is portrate form while jinks is landscape.
Rolling frame rate mostly effects left to right. Movements. While turning the camera 90 degs into portrate means the problem is then top to bottom.
Totally changing things.

The other observation with cmos sensors is that the problem mostly manifests itself at when the movement is close in speed to the capture rate of tue sensor.
Change the rate in either faster or slower and you will get very different answers.

Add all this together and your left with all this comparison being effectivly troll bait.

Fourier analysis can do lots of real interesting things. But it cant predict movements that have external inputs. Such as the other limb tied together via the string.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bow lets look at a global capture camera that doesnt struggle with rolling frame rate issues.
https://youtu.be/QrOG5es76k8

Even the flag ship limb in this marketting blurb doesnt settle as quickly as your videos Kevin


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

This video tells a lot in regard to what some limbs do, what some limbs don't do, and what a camera can or can not catch. 

I think it also dispels the notion that no other bows react like mine did in a slomo video.







What is interesting about his video is that it shows 3 bows being shot, side by side. Same camera, same speed, same lighting, same everything. The only thing that is different is the limb reaction of each individual bow. I guess unless the camera being used has the ability to choose which bow it wants to react a certain way, what you see is what you see.

The limbs on the bow on the far right being shot by Rick Welch (I'm assuming it's one of his own designs), stops dead soon after the release. This is much like the videos I posted.

The bow in the middle being shot by Preston Roberson (appears to be an ACS), wobbles and flutters substantially after the release. This is much like the video JINKS posted.

The bow on the left being shot by Jim Powell (looks like a Hoyt), reacts somewhere in between the other two.

In my opinion, this just goes to show that it's not the camera, it's just a matter of different bows/designs reacting very differently after the release.

What does it mean in terms of feel, accuracy, durability, or performance? I have no clue, nor do I really care. That's for others to decide for themselves. However, to suggest that it isn't really happening...well, they can decide that too.

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> This video tells a lot in regard to what some limbs do, what some limbs don't do, and what a camera can or can not catch.
> 
> I think it also dispels the notion that no other bows react like mine did in a slomo video.
> 
> ...



Watch the limb reaction on that ACS.
That bottom limb seems to be further ahead at BH than the top limb. Closure is not correct.
To me that suggests the user is healing the grip.
ACS longbows have very light mass limbs. Which indicates that the roll back in the hand is more pronounced than it should be and id estimate thats due to the healing of the grip.

This healing action pulls down the NP during the power stroke. Meaning the user needs a higher NP than expected. Which exagerates the wobbles.


Sorry did i mention bow design flaws yet? 
All ive mentioned is setup. One advantage to ILF is you can tinker with limb strength to force tue bow to suit your hand pressure.
Or you could adjust you hand pressure as said in books that predate the acs and Sr recurves. 




But you missed my point about your video vs jinks vs this one.
Frame rate. Shutter speed and vibration speed will all show up as different effects on cmos sensors.


The video above is compairable as its the same bit of film. Although the vibration frequency is still in question.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I don't think I missed your point. I just don't happen to agree with your premise.

So in the case of JINKS' video:






Is the more than obvious wobbles and limb flutter a result of poor tuning/tiller/form, a flawed design, or are we going to stick with the theory that the camera is creating things that aren't there?

If that's the case, I have no doubt in my mind that if I were to record JINKS' bow with my camera, under the exact same conditions that I recorded my own, the limb action would look very similar to how it appears in his video. That's not likely to happen as I have no intention of buying a CH, so unless and until one of my friends buys one, I'm just going to go by what I see. I do have a friend that has (had?) a set of Hex 6's. Maybe when I see him at league tomorrow I can see if we can set up a test with my camera.

I will ask him and report back tomorrow.



KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> Bow lets look at a global capture camera that doesnt struggle with rolling frame rate issues.
> https://youtu.be/QrOG5es76k8
> 
> Even the flag ship limb in this marketting blurb doesnt settle as quickly as your videos Kevin





GEREP said:


> I don't think I missed your point. I just don't happen to agree with your premise.
> 
> So in the case of JINKS' video:
> 
> ...


Lets put these two posts together.

Are all ilf limbs fluttering? Even the flagship model being marketting cant keep its noddles in the basket.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

How about if you answer my question first.






Is the very obvious wobbling and fluttering in JINKS' video simply the nature of the beast, or is it because of a flawed design, poor tuning/tiller/form, or are we going to stick with the theory that the camera is creating things that aren't really there?

If you maintain that it is the camera thing, I guess we'll just have to wait.

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> How about if you answer my question first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ask W&W what they think of the limb flutter in thier promo video?
You might get the same answer.

Aka. Use your comon sense rather than trolling?

What have i already said.

The reason im taking this approach to answering you is because its the weekend tomorrow and i would like to spend it with my wife. And i dont fancy a weekend of urinating symantics with you.

Also my crystal ball is broken and i can see half way round the globe to see how Jinks is shooting.

Sorry dude. Ill bite next weekend and play your panto!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> Use your comon sense...


I already have. Common sense says, and the video shows that when the same camera is used, different bows react *VERY* differently.






Nothing more needs to be said really, at least as far as I'm concerned. I don't wish to play the game of Sid refusing to answer any questions, all the while continuing to ask new ones, only to complain and call someone a troll when they actually try to answers them.




Borderbows said:


> Also my crystal ball is broken and i can see half way round the globe to see how Jinks is shooting.



Why do you need a crystal ball? He's posted a very good video (dozens of them actually). If you can determine the limb timing and closure rate on the ACS that Preston Roberson is shooting, *surely* you can see what JINKS is doing.

Please, have a nice weekend Sid. Enjoy the time with your wife. I'm sure she deserves it. My indoor league starts tomorrow and if I can get my hands on a set of Hex limbs for testing with my camera, I'll be sure to let you know. 

KPC

P.S. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but you don't have to spend your weekend, or any time for that matter, obsessively defending your products whenever someone has a different opinion than you. No other bowyer or manufacturer that I know of feels the need to do that.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

GEREP said:


> P.S. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but you don't have to spend your weekend, or any time for that matter, obsessively defending your products whenever someone has a different opinion than you. No other bowyer or manufacturer that I know of feels the need to do that.


Actually. You would still be under the impression that the tradtech bf limb was a full carbon limb and not a s2 glass carbon limb like the samick version.
That took 3 years of you keeping your head in the sand.
Im just glad your a little more enlightened.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

This is going to be the last time I ever respond to you Sid so you are welcome to have the last word if you wish.

I was under that impression because the person who helped create the TT Extreme BF was under the same impression. That is what he personally related to me, and that is what I related to others. When he discovered otherwise, he immediately related that information, and therefore so did I. It's not a matter of keeping my head in the sand, it is a matter of operating with the information that you have. 

There is a reason that same man is one of the most well respected men in the archery industry today, and why he has built his business to be one of, if not the largest archery equipment suppliers on the planet. It is also why you will be hard pressed to find a negative opinion about him anywhere. 

Because of his integrity, his unwavering commitment to customer service, and the way he treats others, I chose then, and still would choose believe what he told me about his products, right up until he told me otherwise.

Conversely, based on your dealings with people I actually know, your less than stellar customer service when it came to their particular issues, combined with your know it all, condescending, and rude treatment of anyone who has a different opinion than you, I would not personally choose to trust a single word you say, buy a single product you offer, or recommend that anyone else do so either. 

I realize that there are a number of people that love your products, and that's wonderful. I'm also just as sure that some of them will be along post haste to tell everyone how wrong I am, how I am a liar, how I delight in kicking kittens, and how your products are going to make everything else on the market obsolete. It won't be the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. 

I've been on these boards a long time and I only remember two other bowyers that acted the same way you do, and their fans were just as convinced that they were engineering geniuses, archery savants, and that they were going to revolutionize all of single string archery. It is my understanding that one them walked off with an unknown number of customer deposits and the other one is out of the business.

I wish you and your customers well Sid. Happy new year.

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Thats your opinion KPC.

I didnt hide behind a third party name and deny it was me to snipe from the cheap seats.

You didnt listen to my points about the level of marketting strategy that would be flawed. Putting the superior techology limb in someone elses brand while marketting your flagship under your own brand with the inferior build. Doesnt make any sense.
But you took the words from the vendor (as best they knew at the time) and didnt question that logic.
Yet you poke fingers at me. About marketting flaws. Yet you eat the fodder your accusing me of.

Here you are again. Hammering away at me. So. Have a little hammer back.

Happy new year!

I hope your shootings straight and joyfull as that what its supposed to be about!

Sid


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

So what it comes down to is a bunch of argument over an effect seen in videos that were shot using cameras that simply aren't capable of accurately capturing images of what is going on at ANY frame rate that they may or not be "rated" for. 

Kind of like trying to use a plumber's worn out C clamp to mike a Top Fuel Dragster's crankshaft for bearing clearances.


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## olddogrib (Apr 4, 2014)

Ding, ding, ding....I think we have a winner!!!!


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## ncsturkey (Oct 18, 2004)

Bender said "Kind of like trying to use a plumber's worn out C clamp to mike a Top Fuel Dragster's crankshaft for bearing clearances. "

>>>>>>ELOQUENT>>>>>>>>


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

GEREP said:


> If that's the case, I have no doubt in my mind that if I were to record JINKS' bow with my camera, under the exact same conditions that I recorded my own, the limb action would look very similar to how it appears in his video. That's not likely to happen as I have no intention of buying a CH, so unless and until one of my friends buys one, I'm just going to go by what I see. I do have a friend that has (had?) a set of Hex 6's. Maybe when I see him at league tomorrow I can see if we can set up a test with my camera.
> 
> I will ask him and report back tomorrow.
> 
> ...




As promised, I asked my buddy if he still had his Hex 6's and unfortunately he sold them a while ago. 

Apparently he is a ACS longbow guy now. Says it's the best bow he's ever shot.

:wink:

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> As promised on another forum JINKS, here is a video for comparison limb reaction.
> 
> Unfortunately, we couldn't (wouldn't) do this outside where the light is better but we have over a foot of snow, and temps in the single digits.
> 
> ...


Okay...time for me to weigh in here with a few key points folks seem to be comfortably overlooking...the first of which I'd like to point out is the fact that GEREP's video above barely qualifies as being "Slow Motion"...and too add a foundation to that statement?...go to utoob and watch GEREP's video in utoobs .25 speed...and ir's not an easy thing to stop capture (because things are moving so fast) but if you keep double tapping the > (play) button on and off as quickly as you can?...you'll catch about 2 frames worth of arrow movement...the first being...."just as the arrow begins to leave the bow"...and then?...(and this ones really telling in a comical sort of way)..you'll catch a frame where...."not only is the arrow still on the bow but there's another already in the target"....with a black trail line leading one too the other...which is indicative of a very low FPS (re: "frame count") that barely qualifies as being..."Slow Motion"....maybe this is why he published it under...."COMEDY"? LOL!


But let's depart from dissecting the video footage of the same man who started out by openly admitting....



GEREP said:


> *"First, let me say right up front that I know less than nothing about how my iPhone creates slomo videos. That stuff is waaaay above my pay grade"*


and take a good hard close look at what's really going on here that *"IS"* (just one of two but)...the largest part of the differences we see in the *"After Shot Behavior"* of all these bows limbs which is....

*"THE WIDE VARIETY OF DISTANCES THE LIMB TIPS ACTUALLY TRAVEL"*

Where in this Epic Moment Here?.....(if you watch every ones lower limb tip..."at the shot")....






You can clearly see that the limb tips on Preston's ACX Longbow are traveling nearly twice the distance of that of Mr. Powell's or Ricky's....in part because of Preston's obviously long DL coupled with what is a Longbow sporting a lower BH...(it also appears Preston's limb tips are covering that longer distance quite rapidly infering much Stored Energy in the long limbs of his short risered bow)...but moving on?....

Now...I must express that my Robertfishes custom limbs on this BB Warf riser of mine are not your average garden variety conventional limbs in either profile or construction...as not only do they sport a rather aggressive amount of hook?...but the Amber-Boo (stabilized bamboo) cores he used moves with a level of smooth (yet very preloaded) flex I've not felt or seen of any other limb I've ever owned that could be termed "Conventional"...to prove that?....I think you'll agree that you see far more limb tip travel out of Roberts limbs here than any of the other recurves you've seen in this post so far....(which I believe is also why they are so fast)...where I might draw your eye too the "Upper Limb Tip Travel" in this video here...






and now?...for the video that shows...(by far)....

*"The Most Limb Tip Travel Of Them All"*

Where while all the bows above exhibited limb tip travel ranging from about 6"-8"s?....feast your eyes on these babies...on both...

*"The Opening & Closure"*

of it's limbs where you'll see.....

*THE LIMB TIPS TRAVEL A WHOPPING 12 FREAKING INCHES!*

(about twice the distance of a conventional profile recurve limb) 






and that's why all these various bows exhibit a variety of *"After Shot Behavior"*...where some bows "Feel Dead" because they simply lack the same amount of life.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKS:

In an effort to keep things tidy for those anyone to follow this, I thought it might be a good idea to recap, all in one place, the different theories you've posted on various websites in an attempt to explain the limb flutter that was obvious in your video.

1. Of course there's a lot of movement, it takes a lot to bring all that energy to a stop.

2. The limb flutter isn't really happening at all. It's actually an optical illusion created by the camera software.

3. Different cameras are going to show different amounts of flutter because of quality of camera/speed of camera/ lighting/etc.

4. When a video is posted showing three different bows being shot simultaneously, same camera, same lighting, same everything, the one that shows virtually no limb flutter is actually due to the fact that the shooter has a full, tight grip on the bow. (even though your other video shows virtually the same amount of limb flutter with a full grip as with a loose grip)

5. The slow motion videos that I posted don't show much limb flutter because they aren't really slow motion at all and that's why I published them under "comedy."

6. Who cares what the limbs are doing? You can't feel it anyway and look how they penetrate. 

7. When the same camera is used, at the same speed, with three shooters side by side, in the same lighting, the one that exhibits the most limb flutter and movement is because his draw length is longer and his limbs are traveling farther.

8. Finally, some bows feel dead because they just don't have much life.


I think that's everything...at least so far.



KPC


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Reminds me of a game we played with our Longbows during tourneys, the most imaginative excuse for missing i.e light reflected off the inside of my bow, leaf I used as Gap dropped off the tree just before I released etc etc.

Maybe he's looking for an excuse for his next purchase but the bow shoots so well he's completely stumped for excuses.

Happy new year Bill, who cares what you limb tips do, it's where the arrow ends up in the target that counts, drop the whole subject and move on :thumbs_up


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

My input...
The limb tips of Border Covert Hunters vibrate after the shot. The limb generate more energy due to the big hooks. Some goes to the arrow resulting in the higher speed, and some causes limb tip vibration.
It is something that I noticed at first but now don't even notice. I went through a bunch of different bows, but as of yet, I shoot the CH better than the others.
Like every other brand and model, they are not for everyone.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Bill,

Perhaps you haven't been to the LW. I asked over there if you could shoot your Warf with those heavy arrows into the core of your target. I'd find it interesting to see how it penetrates compared to the CH with heavy arrows and the light arrows off the Warf.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't actually understand the controversy.

The high stored energy and 'smooth' draw force curve require deep hooks.

The deep hooks require that there is a longer distance between where the string 'controls' the stoppage of the limbs, and the limb tips. There is also a shorter distance between that point and the riser. The limb tips also travel further forward.

As a result, because of the nature of inertia, leverage, and resonance, the when the string stops at brace, the limb tips move more in total distance, they move farther, and slower. Visually, because they move farther, it may look like there's more vibration energy after the shot. Though, because the oscillation is 'floppy' (it doesn't take a whole lot of energy to move them since their inertia has so much leverage due to the length to the string contact point), and the limb tips are unusually light, maybe not. I really have no idea. What it does mean is that this leftover limb vibration is at a lower frequency, which corresponds to relatively quiet (for human hearing sensitivity, and also because efficient transduction of low frequency sound requires relatively more surface area) low hum or thud that the bow makes, depending on what you've got on it. Limbsavers applied on the limbs between the fade outs and the string contact points, where there is the most movement opposite of the limb tips, seem to dampen the hum to a dull thud considerably.

I shot a really poor video (horrible background, and you can't see the top limb), in which you can see the the bow's limbs (and my bow quiver for that matter), and boinging all over the place. I don't think I get the same kind of oscillation in the riser forward Tilt axis, but it sure does bounce all over the place!






Is there vibration in the bow? Certainly. 
Is it more or less _actual energy_ than any other recurve? I have no idea. Corollary, if that is relevant, it would also be relevant, I would think, how much that energy compared to the energy delivered to the arrow, if you actually cared about that kind of stuff.
Is it characteristically different than other designs? Sure is.

Does it bother me? At first, it weirded me out a little, and then I stopped caring. It is what it is, and for me, of little consequence other than a conversation nugget. It it's a deal breaker for somebody else, for whatever reasons, they're entitled to feel however they want.

It'd sure _look_ a lot more elegant if the limbs simply came to an abrupt stop, though if you think about it, if you managed to engineer a mechanism to do that, the peak energy transfer and resulting shock/stress on the bow and the shooter would be even greater.

The importance of the after the shot vibration characteristic is itself going to be a highly subjective thing. It sure doesn't affect the arrow, as the arrow has left the ... bow, I guess, if not the building. I don't notice the vibration, but I sure wouldn't chalk that up to it not being there. I mean, look at it! 

How it vibrates, though, relatively slowly, combined with how I hold it (high grip and loose), means that I don't _feel_ it enough for it to draw my attention. Different shooter could have a whole different experience, particularly if they're tuning it in a way that affects limb timing (which would cause forward tilt oscillation), and grabbing the crap out of the riser. They're spending their own money, they should buy what they like, and what works well for them. 

I spend mine, I do the same, we can all be happy about it.

But, yeah, it _does_ look pretty goofy if you've never seen anything like it before


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

> "I don't actually understand the controversy.
> 
> ...Is there vibration in the bow? Certainly. ...Does it bother me? At first, it weirded me out a little, and then I stopped caring...
> 
> ...How it vibrates, though, relatively slowly, combined with how I hold it (high grip and loose), means that I don't feel it enough for it to draw my attention. Different shooter could have a whole different experience, particularly if they're tuning it in a way that affects limb timing (which would cause forward tilt oscillation), and grabbing the crap out of the riser...."


First: Thank you for an honest evaluation. Your bow doesn't seem to rock back and forth as much as Jinkster's. I can only assume you addressed the reasons for that in your last paragraph.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the only controversy I perceive is, some folks denying the vibrations even exist when it's obvious in the video's, has been confirmed by others and now you. Well... then, there's that little rhubarb about the camera quality and it showing something that doesn't really exist. 8^)

Thank you again. In the end, there are performance trade off's and sacrifices that have to be made in all bows, limbs and risers for different applications/uses. Open and honest evaluations like yours can only make for a more informed consumer.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Thanks for taking the time to post your video and your opinions Barney. 

For what it's worth, I find your explanation as plausible as any other...except of course the one that says that the flutter and wobble isn't actually happening at all. It just appears to be the nature of the beast. Does it make any difference in terms of accuracy, durability or consistency? Who knows, and quite frankly who really cares? If the people that are buying them don't care, that's all that really matters. Like I said earlier in the thread: 

*"...it all depends on how sensitive you are to such things. Apparently some people feel it and some people don't."* 

It's just something else we discuss. No different than single bevel vs double bevel, ILF vs bolt down, or longbow vs recurve. When someone posts a video or an opinion, they are open to scrutiny and discussion. No different than any other video, picture, theory or opinion. 

Heck, when I started posting on various forums about the TradTech Titan prototype I was testing almost a decade ago, some of those discussions make these "Super Recurve" discussions look like a love fest. I got everything from being banned from certain forums to actual threats of legal action and physical violence. That riser, and a couple others like it, have literally changed the landscape of traditional archery. Maybe the SR will too. We'll know in about ten years I guess. 

What I do know is that people need to grow up and realize that the internet is a two edged sword. If you expect to post your theories or market your products with no opposing opinion, an open forum is probably not the venue for you. That's what blogs are for.

KPC


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

I've thinking about those videos early suspension bridges that vibrated at a certain frequency and failed, I wonder if any of the big manufacturers do any R&D into this aspect of vibration. All limbs vibrate on release and wonder if these factors ever come into the design stage?

I imagine when you get into the materials and engineering side of limbs it can be quite interesting.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Stephen Morley said:


> I've thinking about those videos early suspension bridges that vibrated at a certain frequency and failed, I wonder if any of the big manufacturers do any R&D into this aspect of vibration. All limbs vibrate on release and wonder if these factors ever come into the design stage?
> 
> I imagine when you get into the materials and engineering side of limbs it can be quite interesting.



Not sure, but I'm guessing that the larger players test every aspect of the process and design. The thing I've always wondered about is the size and radius of the curl and how it affects the expansion and contraction sides of the limb. I'm certainly no engineer but I would think that larger the curl, the more attention would have to paid to those two forces working against each other. 

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Not sure, but I'm guessing that the larger players test every aspect of the process and design. KPC


No they don't. And after they find that failure rates = ongoing design problem, they just release a new limb for the new year - all after the one-year warranty is up and they have already replaced your first failure but can't warranty the second because your year is up. Broke me from Hoyt ever again.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Sanford said:


> No they don't. And after they find that failure rates = ongoing design problem, they just release a new limb for the new year - all after the one-year warranty is up and they have already replaced your first failure but can't warranty the second because your year is up. Broke me from Hoyt ever again.


Hard to believe. If true it seems like we're all Guinea pigs then, not pushing the limits of technology but rather the limits of our wallets :sad:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> Hard to believe. If true it seems like we're all Guinea pigs then, not pushing the limits of technology but rather the limits of our wallets :sad:


Yeah, to a degree, and not discounting what happens after we spend our money, good or bad product, the market is the ultimate lab. If failure rates are measured on a per capita of per 1,000 units in use, it's kinda hard to fully understand the design based on just a few lab rats. Get a few thousand in the market and a few years of use and the real test results are better.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sanford said:


> No they don't. And after they find that failure rates = ongoing design problem, they just release a new limb for the new year - all after the one-year warranty is up and they have already replaced your first failure but can't warranty the second because your year is up. Broke me from Hoyt ever again.



I've heard that same type of thing from others here regarding a number of manufacturers, big and small. There are enough warranty horror stories to go around but I find it hard to believe that it's a normal, conscious part of doing business. Maybe I'm wrong. 

However I have to admit, stories like that are why I decided long ago to only buy production equipment from what I know to be very reputable retailers. That way if I have an issue, I don't deal with the manufacturer, I deal with the retailer. 

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> I've heard that same type of thing from others here regarding a number of manufacturers, big and small. There are enough warranty horror stories to go around but I find it hard to believe that it's a normal, conscious part of doing business. Maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> However I have to admit, stories like that are why I decided long ago to only buy production equipment from what I know to be very reputable retailers. That way if I have an issue, I don't deal with the manufacturer, I deal with the retailer.
> 
> KPC


There have been times when a short-run turned very short because the failure rate was high, where everyone you encountered or read who owned the product had an eventual failure. Hoyt's 900CX was one case in point where a recall was warranted, but we know recalls don't happen in archery, at least, I've not seen one before. As for retailers, I agree having a good, large, reputable middle-man is helpful. To add, though, when this limb was being pulled off the market after its very short run, a company as good as Lancaster was selling off its inventory for nearly half-price. Someone was still going to have good money go to something where their recourse was limited.

Maybe the onus was on me. I didn't research before buying. The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint, and that eventually, the limb tip would separate. It did, replaced, it did again, and limb no longer produced and out of warranty. All that in a little over one year! Joined the club of archery lab rats


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Sanford said:


> There have been times when a short-run turned very short because the failure rate was high, where everyone you encountered or read who owned the product had an eventual failure. Hoyt's 900CX was one case in point where a recall was warranted, but we know recalls don't happen in archery, at least, I've not seen one before. As for retailers, I agree having a good, large, reputable middle-man is helpful. To add, though, when this limb was being pulled off the market after its very short run, a company as good as Lancaster was selling off its inventory for nearly half-price. Someone was still going to have good money go to something where their recourse was limited.
> 
> Maybe the onus was on me. I didn't research before buying. The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint, and that eventually, the limb tip would separate. It did, replaced, it did again, and limb no longer produced and out of warranty. All that in a little over one year! Joined the club of archery lab rats


I have been in a similar situation and these days steer well clear from 'latest and greatest' I just don't have the money to be caught in that guinea pig situation. 

I noticed very few top Barebows go for the latest/greatest, it could just be down to wanting backups and something like two sets of MK1440's still cost less than one set of VX1000's and of course they could be looking more at track record rather than outright fps, one of the reasons I look at top Barebows equipment, their choices seem driven more by practicality rather than emotional desire, or maybe they're just tight with their money as they are with their arrow groups


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'd say that when you buy a new design of limbs you are getting something a lot more "beta" than the manufacturer would like you to think.
QC during production is also very human driven with few flaws being visually obvious unless they show during tiller. I don't think any manufacturer actually test fires each individual limb set.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Sanford said:


> There have been times when a short-run turned very short because the failure rate was high, where everyone you encountered or read who owned the product had an eventual failure. Hoyt's 900CX was one case in point where a recall was warranted, but we know recalls don't happen in archery, at least, I've not seen one before. As for retailers, I agree having a good, large, reputable middle-man is helpful. To add, though, when this limb was being pulled off the market after its very short run, a company as good as Lancaster was selling off its inventory for nearly half-price. Someone was still going to have good money go to something where their recourse was limited.
> 
> Maybe the onus was on me. I didn't research before buying. The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint, and that eventually, the limb tip would separate. It did, replaced, it did again, and limb no longer produced and out of warranty. All that in a little over one year! Joined the club of archery lab rats


http://sagittarius.student.utwente....3&t=1135&sid=01a73aac20703dd810a67d5b2058ad23


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> http://sagittarius.student.utwente....3&t=1135&sid=01a73aac20703dd810a67d5b2058ad23


Thanks! Was there an eventual recall?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> I have been in a similar situation and these days steer well clear from 'latest and greatest' I just don't have the money to be caught in that guinea pig situation.



I think this situation is, to a degree, ubiquitous. I feel the exact same about computers. Let millions of others work out the bugs for the new stuff. I need mine to work, or it costs me money. I'll take the base unit about to be discontinued after a good relatively track record with as old an operating system as is currently sold. Yeah, it won't do what the other stuff will do, and I'm counting on that


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Stephen Morley said:


> I have been in a similar situation and these days steer well clear from 'latest and greatest' I just don't have the money to be caught in that guinea pig situation.





BarneySlayer said:


> I think this situation is, to a degree, ubiquitous. I feel the exact same about computers. Let millions of others work out the bugs for the new stuff. I need mine to work, or it costs me money. I'll take the base unit about to be discontinued after a good relatively track record with as old an operating system as is currently sold. Yeah, it won't do what the other stuff will do, and I'm counting on that





Sanford said:


> Maybe the onus was on me. I didn't research before buying. The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint, and that eventually, the limb tip would separate. It did, replaced, it did again, and limb no longer produced and out of warranty. All that in a little over one year! Joined the club of archery lab rats.


In my opinion, there is a great deal of truth to all these statements. The whole "leading edge" -vs- "bleeding edge" dilemma has been around as long as time itself.

What I find interesting is the disdain by some for discussions just like this one. Ironically, it's discussions like these that ARE the "research" in my opinion. It's all we have. What other option or sources of information does the consumer have? It's not like we have *Consumer Reports* for archery equipment. 

I can certainly understand why Hoyt might not have liked the internet chatter about issues people were having with the 900CX, but apparently (I have no personal experience with them) a lot more people would have been wise to take heed. 

In my opinion, these forums are absolutely useless unless discussions like this are allowed to take place. If I wanted to read nothing but glowing things about Hoyt, I'd go to their website. I'm sure they explained in great detail how the 900CX was the best limb every designed. However, if I wanted to hear both sides, I'd come to forums like this.

KPC


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

GEREP said:


> In my opinion, there is a great deal of truth to all these statements. The whole "leading edge" -vs- "bleeding edge" dilemma has been around as long as time itself.
> 
> What I find interesting is the disdain by some for discussions just like this one. Ironically, it's discussions like these that ARE the "research" in my opinion. It's all we have. What other option or sources of information does the consumer have? It's not like we have *Consumer Reports* for archery equipment.
> 
> ...


Well said. It would also be nice if manufacturers and the people who shoot and love a bow didn't turn 50 shades of butt hurt when anything other than a glowing review was made of their product.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sauk Mountain said:


> Well said. It would also be nice if manufacturers and the people who shoot and love a bow didn't turn 50 shades of butt hurt when anything other than a glowing review was made of their product.


Agreed....and it would also help if folks didn't turn a blind eye to important differences when comparing data in an obvious attempt to spin the world their way.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Agreed....and it would also help if folks didn't turn a blind eye to important differences when comparing data in an obvious attempt to spin the world their way.



With all due respect JINKS, in my opinion, the only *"obvious attempt to spin the world their way"* that I am seeing is from those that keep insisting that what is being seen in the videos is not actually happening. Everything else is just a question of why, and does it matter? They are *expecting* everyone to turn a blind eye to what is obviously happening.

Even people who own the limbs and like them agree that it is indeed happening, but their opinion is that it doesn't matter. That's fine.


As Sanford said:



Sanford said:


> Maybe the onus was on me. *I didn't research before buying.* The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint...


That is exactly what these discussions are, research. Asking the questions is not "spinning the world their way." 

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

I dont read your posts as anything other than denail KPC. 
Thats why i dont give you any quarter.
You argue the inverse of everything i post.

Im saying this because it takes two to argue. And i agree with jinks's last post.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> That is exactly what these discussions are, research.
> 
> KPC


I'll let you get back to your "laboratory" then.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

There is often as much research in these discussion as there is investigations done in a kangaroo court!

Most decent research tries to remove subjectivity or personal motivations and vendetas or at least quantify the subjectivity and discard the personal snipes

And with the absence of facts. Forums are left with nothing but, he said. But you said. But he said. And a bunch of popcorn munching spectators

So lets have at it for another 9 pages.

The world appears to have a surplus of pop corn for folks to munch


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sanford said:


> I'll let you get back to your "laboratory" then.


Were you being truthful when you said the following:

*"Maybe the onus was on me. I didn't research before buying. The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint..."*

If you were (and I trust you were), in hindsight where and how would you suggest that research be done? By only talking to Hoyt? By only reading their advertising literature? Or by seeking out as much information as possible, and speaking to as many people as possible regarding the issue...pro and con, and then making your purchase decisions based on the preponderance of the evidence that you found?

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Were you being truthful when you said the following:
> 
> *"Maybe the onus was on me. I didn't research before buying. The first time I used them I knew something was wrong - noisy and lots of vibration. Research showed me this was a growing complaint..."*
> 
> ...


I'm speaking to a limb that had a design flaw and very high failure rate and was quickly replaced by the manufacturer without recourse to the former. There's no design "flaw" in the bow of this thread, as it's been on the market and reviewed over and over. It's all opinion at this point with enough favorable to cause any negative to just add confusion to anyone purchasing. In the end, as long as it isn't "flawed", the shooter won't know if it's their bag until they get one or try one. I suggest the latter for any bow purchase anyway. To think there's any "science" in your opinion over that of others it just being pompously silly.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

This is the difference between internet and real numbers from education and science.

Afraid to say.

How many times have you see someone ask. Brand x or brand Y. So 5 people say brand X 5 people say brand y 25 folks say brand z,a,b,c,d,e,f....


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Forums is one place but most of the time I ask the good shooters using the product at International tourneys, most don't hold back on either the good or bad points, I understand many here don't get to these kinds of tourneys so asking on Forums is their only option, you don't always get a straight answer or really know who that info is coming from.

Sid I don't know if you're willing to share this info (you might feel some trade secrets are being disclosed) but it would be interesting to know the kind of R&D you did on the Hex7, you have mentioned on other threads the R&D that goes into your products, you don't have to go into specifics, just the process of concept idea to end product i.e do you have some material stress software or is it build a limb, test it to destruction and keep improving on that build?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sanford said:


> To think there's any "science" in your opinion over that of others it just being pompously silly.



What opinion have I offered, other than in JINKS' video, it appears that his limbs wobble extensively after the shot? The same opinion that others, including happy owners of the same brand limbs, have offered. 

I've offered no other opinion, other than that which relates to the validity and usefulness of these types of discussions. 

If you wouldn't mind, could you please reference any opinion I've offered in this discussion about the limbs in question, potential flaws or failures, or that any of my opinions hold any more weight than anyone else's? 

What's "pompously silly" is to insinuate that I have.

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> What opinion have I offered, other than in JINKS' video, it appears that his limbs wobble extensively after the shot? The same opinion that others, including happy owners of the same brand limbs, have offered.
> 
> I've offered no other opinion, other than that which relates to the validity and usefulness of these types of discussions.
> 
> ...


You had made the corollary of my totally separate issue with a flawed limb design and manufacturer warranty with the discussion on this bow, not me. I merely corrected you back to understanding that the two are not the same discussion. The science comment was just that this is a discussion of opinions, and again, you hinted at something being proved or disproved, to which I say still all falls withing the realm of opinion, as the product in question is not new and well received by the buying public.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> Forums is one place but most of the time I ask the good shooters using the product at International tourneys, most don't hold back on either the good or bad points, I understand many here don't get to these kinds of tourneys so asking on Forums is their only option, you don't always get a straight answer or really know who that info is coming from.
> 
> Sid I don't know if you're willing to share this info (you might feel some trade secrets are being disclosed) but it would be interesting to know the kind of R&D you did on the Hex7, you have mentioned on other threads the R&D that goes into your products, you don't have to go into specifics, just the process of concept idea to end product i.e do you have some material stress software or is it build a limb, test it to destruction and keep improving on that build?


We have a huge depth of experience over the years
But every new laminate. Core or profile gets a very similar treatment. We have overall draw lengths for each limb length that the product needs to pass through. At various dimensions we know push the limits of the materials we are using. So at max stress we then have expectations we put the prototypes through. We have expectations on levels of TS required for the size of the recurve to help eliminate customer handling errors.
We then have dry fire testing where we expect a above normal condition to pass.

We have background tests on how the carbon handles heat. Hiw the glue hands heat etc. So those are carried forward into each product. And verified by the very nature of the overdrawing. And dry fire testing.
That process prooves that concept.
The next issue which we have learnt over the years especially is to start looking at production tollerances. At minimum values. What is the product like. And max values what is the product like.

With these and then some extensive shooting, we feel we are ready to launch a product.

There are thousands of variants. And other external issues that can happen. You cannot solve a single one off failure. But you can solve systematic failures. The problem is finding them, and solving the root of the problem. Which is often not clear as quite often the user feedback is based on fear of not getting support. Never under weight arrows. Never over braced. Never dry fired. And yet we know from personal experience. Nocking the arrow incorrectly. Not getting the loop on the limb properly in a stringing accident all happens. 

With the right feedback the right issues can be addressed.
Problems come about when the customer is the first one with the problem. Or its the first problem with a materials batch. Means your for ever chasing your tail tring to find the truth.
For example there is a well known limb that had issues with its first batch. Failures were well known.
Then there was a geometry change to the limb. Where it was backed off a little. And the reputation was speed was down. This limb is now branded with tue same name. But its not the limb it started as.
So its difficult for internet forums to pin the tail on this donkey as the donkey is able to move.
The product produced today is not the product thats produced tomorrow.
Yet it carries the same name.
The internet is then full of different stories. Where no one knows whats going on.
And NO brand is immune from this.

But what is helpfull (not) is when the same guy harps on for 5 years about tue same single issue he saw someone else have. So that one issue keep going round and round and round like a boomerang. And that one issue becomes a plague. Even though its all just one person.

Ive found it funny watching folks say our hex6 limb was a design too far. Yet the hex7 more than doubles the "too far" concept the cynics comented on.

So untill you know what the manufacturer knows. Its all speculation.

An example of this is why would we continue to make and risk our company and our guys living on a limb that some on FB keep branding negitavly.
Infact. Its such a negative aspect. We have bought CNC mills to make risers to match our limbs too. We have invested in what a handfull of naysayers class as a dead duck.
Our accountant doesnt agree with the naysayers. Our experience doesnt either. 

So thats how much i have faith in interenet feedback.





We also during this process have the limbs being shot.

An example of this is we have a couple of ideas being shot right now. These are hex8 ideas. But we have no expectation of a hex8 being produced this year.
We have a couple of hex8s made. These have been shot. But mostly . But no one has them at present. Only individual concepts in individual pairs. As we see what each part does


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

What I take away from this is KPC Labratories is dangerously close to proving there's anything better about his decade old Titan riser donning uuhka limbs with the limb bolts spun all the way out to produce about a 9"BH on his 60" Bow storing as little energy as possible to the produce a real fast slow motion video of how dead his bow is as compared to my Hex7 Covert Hunter....too which I agree! :laugh:

My 30.06 reacts far differently than my .22mag when shot as well.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> So until you know what the manufacturer knows. Its all speculation.


Thanks for the info on your development procedures.

No manufacturer is going to give the full story so it's just speculation because that's all most of us have. I posted somewhere else no manufacturer (including Border) will ever publish their failure rates on a limb. I can really only go on what I've personally experienced and what others I personally know have told me. Sometimes I get feedback on Forums but I've been around them a few years and respect and listen to a select few that I know have posted a consistent track record, good reputation and have extensive shooting experience, a combination of these things help me build an intuitive picture of what's going on with a product.

I'm sure you will do well with the CH and Hex7, you have a good following here and on TT, yes you have a few that don't like you and give you a hard time on these Forums but I think it's more about you rather than your product, you keep coming back for more so obviously you have a good thick skin :thumbs_up


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> What I take away from this is KPC Labratories is dangerously close to proving there's anything better about his decade old Titan riser donning uuhka limbs with the limb bolts spun all the way out to produce about a 9"BH on his 60" Bow storing as little energy as possible to the produce a real fast slow motion video of how dead his bow is as compared to my Hex7 Covert Hunter....too which I agree! :laugh:
> 
> My 30.06 reacts far differently than my .22mag when shot as well.



Bless your heart JINKS, you just can't help stepping in it no matter how hard you try. My research suggests that you might want to get your eyes checked, or maybe do a little more research because that decade old Titan with a 9" brace and Uukha limbs, with the limb bolts spun all the way out is actually a decade old Titan with a 7 7/8" brace height with Uukha limbs and the limb bolts spun out exactly 1 3/4 turns.

















Oh, and furthermore, my anemic old *".22 mag"* of a bow actually leaves the back yard and kills real animals that bleed real blood. So, when it comes to what I personally look for in a *"hunting bow,"* I actually base it on...well...*hunting.* And what I look for in a bow that I shoot 3D and indoor leagues with, I base it on actually shooting 3D and indoor league where I actually fill out score cards with a real pencil and real numbers.

You are also welcome to mock my 10 year old, anemic *".22 mag"* of hunting/3D bow, but at the end of the day, when I say that it is the best bow I have personally ever used for what I do, and continue to shoot it and hunt with it for a decade, despite having tried dozens and dozens of different ones, you can probably rely on the fact that I sincerely mean it. 

Lastly who would you put more trust in, a guy that has pretty much shot the same bow for a decade because he has not found anything that he as personally liked better? Or a guy that by his own admission has shot 30-40 bows over the last five years, stated that at least half of them are the best bows he's ever owned, declared some of them best hunting bows available without ever having hunted with one, and will never sell them, and pass them on to his grandchildren...only to sell them a month later for the newest best bow that has ever existed?

Please...

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Give me a second while I give a rats patooky....okay done.

won't be nibbling on anymore of your bait either cause there'll only ever be but one outcome.

The world according to KPC.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Steve.
If i listened to the naysayers id be making CV limbs but in glass fiber.
The world would still be deemed flat. Is naysayers had thier way.
And folks would still be theorising over who has the best bow and the biggest distinguishing feature would be how many pinecones were engraved on the grip.

Instead we now have a new flavour of trad bow. All because of an invention my dad came up with in 1999.

People can say what they will. But its just a few on forums. I can live with that.

Whats even more ironic. Ive recieved emails applogising for the online behavior of thier friend. Saying he can be a hot head. With a bit of a temper. Ill not say who this is. Or which of his friends sent me the email. But id sure be embarased of my friends were applogising on my behalf.

This online farce has been long and ongoing. Thick skinned or savvy smile at "welcome to the internet"
Im a member of a few different online comunities. And anyone with anything worthy of reading has thier haters. Its fun to watch them get flack from the internet over absolutly nothing but ego and opinion. 

There is not a comunity on the www that hasnt got its movers and shakers without its haters.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Here is a perfect example of the internet.
I guy came on TT a while back claiming border will be no more by 2015. Border will never sell another bow into Sweden.
That was 2014.
In 2015. 12 Swedish guys came to our bowfest. They told us they were here in person to say the utterly disagreed with that guy.
That weekend was a great weekend of beer and laughs.

These 12 guys dont post on forums. But they do judge the posters.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> No manufacturer is going to give the full story so it's just speculation because that's all most of us have. I posted somewhere else no manufacturer (including Border) will ever publish their failure rates on a limb.


I think there's a good reason for that, similar to why no manufacturer actually wants to tell you the actual materials cost, manufacturing cost, whatever. In our environment, marketing requires selling the idea of something as much as, or more than, function. My dad, who got his masters in business administration, said that it is typical for the end user to pay about 4 to 5 times the actual cost of manufacturing the product itself. 

If you knew that your $1,000 widget took about $200 to make, including parts and labor, would you feel nearly as good spending your $1,000 on the widget? It wouldn't work any differently. However, if you (or others) knew that, would you value it as a $1,000 _____? It's not that you're getting ripped off, but when you factor in the costs of doing business, whether it is R&D, sales, marketing, support, warranty repairs, building rent, equipment maintenance, administrative costs, distribution, whatever, the price you're paying actually is the cost required to make it worth doing for all parties involved. Still, we like the illusion that the value of what we pay is inherent in the product.

More so in materialistic societies, (like the united states), but we all subconsciously make these mental calculations of worth (monetary or not), and what it means to us, (or what it means about us) based on concepts that aren't, strictly speaking, directly related to function or even actual enjoyment _using_ the product, in terms of the satisfaction of _having_ the product. Often, that satisfaction of having the product peaks shortly before or after initial possession, and then fades when notions of what it _could_ be like fossilize into the reality of the experience. Ideas are more seductive when they're free to live entirely in your head. It's a foundation of consumerism.

As such, in terms of failure rate, companies cannot afford to damage that idea with mundane realities.

We like to think that if a product is 'good,' then it is crafted well from 'good' materials. We love things we can call 'bullet proof,' and yet most everything we buy isn't. Truth is, eventually, EVERYTHING breaks. Often, though, we never see it, because we sell it off, throw it away, or we break first. If our toys and we last a long time, it's probably close enough, practically speaking.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Good post Barney.

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Borderbows said:


> Here is a perfect example of the internet.
> I guy came on TT a while back claiming border will be no more by 2015. Border will never sell another bow into Sweden.
> That was 2014.
> In 2015. 12 Swedish guys came to our bowfest. They told us they were here in person to say the utterly disagreed with that guy.
> ...


Man is that ever so true! LOL!

I've been blessed run into some real characters at shoots...one was "Pat Carter"...he was very interested to meet me when he heard an old mentor of mine was Dillard "Buck" Bucklin who was close friends with Fred Bear...and as it turns out?...Pat Carter?...(this guy hooking me up with a set of woodies at TBOF here)....










Was close friends (and literally grew up with) with Jackie Bushmen and had been a guest on a few episodes of "Buckmasters" where he also became friends with Byron Ferguson where He & Byron had come down to help a friend "Start" T.B.O.F. here in Florida and the friend they came to help?...was none other than Dickey Betts (of the Allman Brothers band) and we shot together all weekend...










and even played guitar together...










My point?...90% of the name brand archers I meet at shoots?...."Lurk"...but don't post...and the ones that do?...are usually only doing so because they have "Wares" they'd like to promote...some tangible?...and others not so much.

I started this thread by posting up a slomo of how my arrows are coming off my CH....then posted another requested video of a "Side View Slomo"....and since then?...

I've heard that my 17" Triple Carbon Spine Riser is "Flexing"

I've heard that in time it's going to break.

(and here's the real rich one...)

One poster infered my tuning and timing was off because compared to Barneyslayers slomo vid?...my bow was rocking back and forth and I was in denial and inferring I was being less than honest about my riser flexing or feeling vibration...yada, yada, yada....

and?...all this was claimed without even paying attention too the facts that...

A: Barney is Shooting a 19" riser of greater mass.

B. Barney has a huge knife blade Stab on his riser...mine doesn't even have a stab bushing let alone a stab.

c. Barney is lashed in with a snug grip where me?...I'm holding my bow as loosely as I can (therefore feel no vibes) and allowing it to respond naturally and even so?...this is the position of my bows riser after the limbs have closed and the arrows left the bow...










I'd say that looks pretty well tuned and timed too me! LOL!

But according to opinions on the internet? LOL!

Here's how unhappy I am with my Hex7 CH....

Last night?...I made my reservations through booking.com for 2 nights at the Sawgrass Inn & Conference Center in Plantation, FL for attending the East Coast Traditional IBO Championship...now I sort of figured that 45#s is going to be just a touch much for me there all weekend so I got to work on my 38# Warf tonight to set up for competition and?...several groups into it?...(and real happy my .500 spine 3DHV bare shafts were coming off the bow great)...I just couldn't do it...as the bow just...

*"Didn't Have That Hex7 Feel"*

and felt like mush too me...dead up front....tuggy in the back...and soggy at the loose...so back in the house it went and out came the Hex7 CH.

I'm thinking I'll do just swell!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Jinks, that sounds like a great experience you had!

My summation on the above, if it's shooting how you want, it really doesn't matter.

But, I'm glad you notice my knife blade 'stab.'

It has been, on occasion, a great conversation piece. At once shoot, a compound shooter told me, "That's the coolest thing I've ever seen at an archery competition."

Have since graduated to hole sawed hockey pucks, washers, and a bolt, though I'd like to dig that thing up again, just because.

And, I do think you'll do just swell. Go get it!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

do i have my ducks in a row?

is the guy who claimed SR a was just marketting hype now shooting a SR?

is the guy who claimed that the provinance of Olympic medals proof of a good design, with extreme BF limbs, a reason for not buying border limbs, now shooting a limb that hasnt won a olympic medal?

also the guy who is claiming someone is belittling his bow, spent the past 3 threads belittling someones elses bow. 

and also the guy that claims that internet research is a Valid source of info.

or is most of this just an allegance to a brand and retail outlet, maskarading as a "informed user"

que the insults!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think there's a good reason for that, similar to why no manufacturer actually wants to tell you the actual materials cost, manufacturing cost, whatever. In our environment, marketing requires selling the idea of something as much as, or more than, function. My dad, who got his masters in business administration, said that it is typical for the end user to pay about 4 to 5 times the actual cost of manufacturing the product itself.
> 
> If you knew that your $1,000 widget took about $200 to make, including parts and labor, would you feel nearly as good spending your $1,000 on the widget? It wouldn't work any differently. However, if you (or others) knew that, would you value it as a $1,000 _____? It's not that you're getting ripped off, but when you factor in the costs of doing business, whether it is R&D, sales, marketing, support, warranty repairs, building rent, equipment maintenance, administrative costs, distribution, whatever, the price you're paying actually is the cost required to make it worth doing for all parties involved. Still, we like the illusion that the value of what we pay is inherent in the product.
> 
> ...


the flip side to all this, you cannot compair statistics. there is no ISO measurement for failure rate.

an example of this is driving while on your cell phone, used to be classed as dangerious driving. its now been sub classed as driving will using a cell phone here in the UK.

so the volume of dangrious driving incidences has dropped. (not it hasnt)

so when someone talks about % of limb failure, it can be a % of costs to repair or replace. % of turnover.
it could be % of unrepairable product
could be % of returned product. of which some is just a cosmetic issue that is fixable.

all these are classed as warrenty, which is under customer satisfaction.

so which % would you be looking at if 3 manufacturers quoted % failure numbers?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> I'm sure you will do well with the CH and Hex7, you have a good following here and on TT, yes you have a few that don't like you and give you a hard time on these Forums but I think it's more about you rather than your product, you keep coming back for more so obviously you have a good thick skin :thumbs_up


so there sits the answer to the validity of internet product reviews.

people who have an objection to the personality have online opinions about the product.

please note that the same 5 folks who frequent most forums, always feature in the Border threads are always negative. yet thier opinion is about the product, when its not the product, its the personality.

Three cheers for internet reviews!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Last night?...I made my reservations through booking.com for 2 nights at the Sawgrass Inn & Conference Center in Plantation, FL for attending the East Coast Traditional IBO Championship...


Good luck and shoot well. I look forward to hearing how it goes.

KPC


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Last night?...I made my reservations through booking.com for 2 nights at the Sawgrass Inn & Conference Center in Plantation, FL for attending the East Coast Traditional IBO Championship...now I sort of figured that 45#s is going to be just a touch much for me there all weekend so I got to work on my 38# Warf tonight to set up for competition and?...several groups into it?...(and real happy my .500 spine 3DHV bare shafts were coming off the bow great)...I just couldn't do it...as the bow just...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jinks, are you signed up to shoot to compete or just have a fun shoot? Well, in any case that great. Hope you have fun. Almost a year now with my New Dryad ACS RC which is spot on. So, I am thinking of shooting a couple of shoots too.
Dan


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Jinks, are you signed up to shoot to compete or just have a fun shoot?


Yes to both! 

This annual shoot just started up a year or two ago and is unique for this area in that it's a "Traditional Only IBO Shoot"

In speaking with the organizer there'll be 40 Rhinehart targets this year and no two will be the same.

There will also be a "Bowhunter's Challenge" course/event to participate in.

I have several shoots lined up I plan to attend the next couple months...I have a club 3D the 21st then some National event at Gold Coast Archers the 28th-29th then the Rhinehart 100 in March.

Gonna be putting some miles on the new truck and smiles on me.


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## RRinFL (Jul 26, 2016)

Bill, hope you have a blast at the shoot. Helen likes competion shoots and does pretty well with her 46# longbow (42# at her draw legnth). She likes 900 rounds and such..77 meters is to far for me, I like 20 yards or less.


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## RRinFL (Jul 26, 2016)

I see the Rinehart 100 is not in Tampa this year and is in Ft Lauderdale..too far for me


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## KPC (GEREP) (Jun 27, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> ...felt like mush too me...dead up front....tuggy in the back...and soggy at the loose...



Dang, I bet Robert was excited to read that.

:wink:

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Kpc. How many profiles do you have?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

KPC (GEREP) said:


> Dang, I bet Robert was excited to read that.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> KPC


As any limbs of conventional profile now feel too me after becoming used to SR limbs that store far more energy.

I've also many times given Robert's limbs accolades for speed...smoothness and dead quiet at the shot with their amberboo cores.

But thanks for your effort at destroying a friendship here KPC....you are indeed a very special sort of person.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I was joking JINKS, hence the :wink:.


For anyone who is curious, the reason I just posted under KPC (GEREP) is as follows. 

Last summer when *AT* was hacked, I was one of the people that had trouble logging back in. I had to re-register in order to contact an administrator in order to get it resolved. Just yesterday, I somehow got logged out again and could not get back in. I had to log back in under the other registration *(KPC (GEREP))* in order to contact an administrator (tjandy) in order to get it resolved. It is now resolved again and I can post under my original name. The post I made above was in the interim. 

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Cool. That makes sense.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

JINKSTER said:


> As any limbs of conventional profile now feel too me after becoming used to SR limbs that store far more energy.
> 
> I've also many times given Robert's limbs accolades for speed...smoothness and dead quiet at the shot with their amberboo cores.
> 
> *But thanks for your effort at destroying a friendship here KPC....you are indeed a very special sort of person*.


C'mon Jinks, little over dramatic don't you think?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

GEREP said:


> Bless your heart JINKS, you just can't help stepping in it no matter how hard you try. My research suggests that you might want to get your eyes checked, or maybe do a little more research because that decade old Titan with a 9" brace and Uukha limbs, with the limb bolts spun all the way out is actually a decade old Titan with a 7 7/8" brace height with Uukha limbs and the limb bolts spun out exactly 1 3/4 turns.
> 
> View attachment 5337737
> 
> ...



Might I just say.... BEST POST OF THE NEW YEAR RIGHT HERE...... You win the internet today!! Someone who actually leaves his back yard and uses his bow for more than making a fool of himself! Ok, my words there. Thanks for the input from someone who actually "hunts" with his hunting bow, or "competes" with said bow. I'm still laughing...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Oh look...trolls on a fishing trip....(yawn)


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Oh look...trolls on a fishing trip....(yawn)


looking in the mirror again..


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Jinkster, in no way do I want this to come across like an attack on you or the chance to dogpile on you but there have been some valid points raised here. Personally, I'm glad you have invested so much time and money into shooting so many different bows in the past few years and making videos about them and I'm sure they've helped people along the way. However, I simply can't take your reviews seriously. They're too emotionally driven, like a kid opening Christmas gifts and saying each one is their favorite. Objectivity is the key. You can't say a bow is the greatest hunting bow or target bow out there if you haven't done either with that bow. I have no doubt you love traditional archery and love to tinker and try new things, but it's hard to lend credibility to posts and statements when you don't keep a bow around more than a couple months. 

I have no doubt you love your covert hunter, but the comparison between that and the Warf wasn't even remotely objective. You were comparing penetration between bows with 7lbs difference in draw weight and a 300 grain difference in arrow weight, in a foam target which is known to be a poor indicator of penetration. 

Again, this isn't a personal attack on you. I like you, and I appreciate all your efforts. I watch most if not all the videos you post here and one day when I was home sick with the flu I watched several of your older videos from years past, way back when you were rocking the mini mullet. Anytime you post something online, you have to do so knowing that you're setting yourself up to be critiqued, fairly or otherwise.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sauk Mountain said:


> Anytime you post something online, you have to do so knowing that you're setting yourself up to be critiqued, fairly or otherwise.



It should be mentioned that this doesn't just go for JINKS, it goes for *every single* one of us. Nobody who posts here is above critique, analysis or question...including Olympians, bowyers, authors, experienced and inexperienced alike. 

Not only is this notion that every single person that questions someone is a *"troll"* getting tired, but most people see it for what it is...nothing more than an attempt to deflect.

KPC


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## algdog (Jun 13, 2005)

I just started back with my trad stuff back in october, I find the internet is a vast amount of knowledge on stick bows. the videos I have watched, and techniques I've seen, are very impressive, back thru the 80's till the mid 90's at different shoots with my longbow, most all comments were, hey nice bow, or nice shot. I find it "poor judgement" that some of you can argue back and forth like kids, about a stick and a string. 
I've never met the Jinkster in person, but he is doing a lot of us a favor here with videos and techniques , bows that he uses and likes, he is teaching a lot of old timers and new guys some new stuff, and I for one appreciate all he does. so lets just lay off and stop with all the BS, grow up and have some fun shooting a bow.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> It should be mentioned that this doesn't just go for JINKS, it goes for *every single* one of us.


This is an excellent point.

Most of us are not professionals in experimental methodology, and even for the few that are, they are only a collection of data points.

Reviews by anybody, even professional reviewers, are good for providing an introduction to products, and when possible to reference one way or another, can tell us _something_ by are inherently not definitive by any means. I like my bow too, and I can share my experience, and tell you why, but my experience can only be taken as my own, and any objective observations I make should be evaluated in context of how I made them, and what they might actually mean, if anything.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> This is an excellent point.
> 
> Most of us are not professionals in experimental methodology, and even for the few that are, they are only a collection of data points.
> 
> Reviews by anybody, even professional reviewers, are good for providing an introduction to products, and when possible to reference one way or another, can tell us _something_ by are inherently not definitive by any means. I like my bow too, and I can share my experience, and tell you why, but my experience can only be taken as my own, and any objective observations I make should be evaluated in context of how I made them, and what they might actually mean, if anything.


Its all there to read. Limitiations and all. With the critisiums leveld at those that try. I am supprised anyone tries. Or anyone has the guts to try.

Whats that statement. Credit to the man in the ring! Etc etc etc


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Barney:

You make some valid points. Everybody's personal experience is just that, their personal experience. 

There are two types of reviews that I am always skeptical of, regardless of who posts them. Reviews of equipment that are brand new to someone, and reviews by people who have a financial interest in the product being reviewed. 

Very few people can give a subjective review of something they just spent a pile of money on. *"Honeymoon"* reviews, while totally understandable, don't really mean much, especially when they declare the product being reviewed to be the best, the fastest, the quietest, the smoothest the deadliest or whatever "est" you care to think of. Over the last 10 or 15 years, I literally can't count how many bestest of the bestests I've read, only to see them in the classifieds a few months later. Reviews or claims by those that have a financial interest...well, that's obvious. I'm not saying they can't be accurate, but in my opinion, skepticism is in order. 

Personally, I like reviews like Blacky Schwarz used to do, or Pete Ward and few others. No vested interest, just the numbers using the same testing parameters every time. Chronograph readings don't mean much unless you have something to compare it to, using the same testing methods. Beyond that, nobody can really tell me how smooth a bow feels to me, how the grip feels to me, how much shock or vibration I feel, or how noisy it is when set up the way I like it.

It's a lot like going on a couple dates with a woman and declaring that she is the prettiest, sexiest, smartest and most talented woman in the world. She may well end up being all those things, but it's not likely...and she certainly won't be all those things for everyone.

:wink: 

KPC


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## nmlongbow (Nov 13, 2007)

algdog said:


> I just started back with my trad stuff back in october, I find the internet is a vast amount of knowledge on stick bows. the videos I have watched, and techniques I've seen, are very impressive, back thru the 80's till the mid 90's at different shoots with my longbow, most all comments were, hey nice bow, or nice shot. I find it "poor judgement" that some of you can argue back and forth like kids, about a stick and a string.
> I've never met the Jinkster in person, but he is doing a lot of us a favor here with videos and techniques , bows that he uses and likes, he is teaching a lot of old timers and new guys some new stuff, and I for one appreciate all he does. so lets just lay off and stop with all the BS, grow up and have some fun shooting a bow.


This is a good post and part of a problem new shooters don't realize. Just because someone has 10k posts on one forum and 5-10k more posts on other forums doesn't mean much if the entire breadth of their experience occurs in the backyard. Hundreds of videos on tuning with epiphanies that change with the weather just aren't credible without real world experience to back it up. Spending thousands on top of the line target equipment and giving tons of advice while never venturing out of the yard doesn't help anyone and is more detrimental to newer archers. It's the same with hunting. You can buy the most expensive arrows and broadheads for hunting then proclaim them to be without equal but if you never hunt then all of that advice is worthless.

I only pay attention to advice given by people who have been there and done that. Posting about hunting and competition isn't the same as actually doing it. I've hunted and competed with trad bows for 35+ years and find it disingenuous for someone to give so much advice on something they have no experience with.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Ive never seen such a targeted charachter assasination online in all my time online.

If you dont like jinks posts there is an ignore button on most forums.

But no. Thats too simple for this agenda.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

GEREP said:


> Barney:
> 
> You make some valid points. Everybody's personal experience is just that, their personal experience.
> 
> ...


I get the honey moon thing, when i got my expensive gorgeous custom longbow I was in love, greatest thing ever. Tried many I liked and a few i didnt. Bought the solid riser titan and loved that puppy also had the omega original i loved. Fancy custom collected dust, needed to unload some gear and the omega and tradtech were extremely easy to sell vs the custom that I would take a massive hit on it seems. So the titan and omega went. 

Shot the custom for awhile but the titan was always in my mind. Found a killer deal on a titan with carbon woods and arrows + extras. Added a set of carbon extremes and haven't thought about buying another bow since. Love this setup


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

nmlongbow said:


> I only pay attention to advice given by people who have been there and done that. Posting about hunting and competition isn't the same as actually doing it. I've hunted and competed with trad bows for 35+ years and find it disingenuous for someone to give so much advice on something they have no experience with.


How do you actually know on these Forums they have been there and done it unless you personally know the Archer or can see their tourney achievements recorded on IBO/IFAA/WA sites? Most of the stuff I read I take with a pinch of salt, if some topic does catch my attention enough, I'll invest the time to conduct my own tests and make my own independent opinion. This applies to shooting techniques as well as equipment, just to keep an open mind. 


People find Jinks hard to take seriously because for years everything is the next best thing, till the next best thing is purchased, never impartial, just enthusiastic posting on his latest purchase, nothing wrong with that as long as you accept it for what it is. No reason to find his passion for bows annoying as some do, I find it kinda refreshing.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> How do you actually know on these Forums they have been there and done it unless you personally know the person or can see their tourney achievements recorded on IBO/IFAA/WA sites? Most of the stuff I read I take with a pinch of salt, if some topic does catch my attention enough, I'll invest the time to conduct my own tests and make my own independent opinion.


Very valid way of going through things.
Magazines dont look after smaller brands. So how do you find out about them
The internet gives you access to a great wealth of exposure. From that you can do your own investigations.

But watching forums belittle someones opinion also is as toxic as watching money dominate a marketplace.

Innovation comes from a person. Be it someone in a corporation or someone in thier garage. Its still the lightbulb idea comes from a person.
So what gives. 

Im not sure anyone has the right to harrass anyone. If you dont agree with someone then debate the point and move on. There are a lot of threads that dont get exposure because no one replies. But it seems if you mention border the same handfull of names turn the threads into marathons. That degenerate into assasinations of the person and not the topic.

Its already been said that the problem some people have with border is me. And less to do with the product.
It seems the attack on jinks posts is more to do with jinks than jinks intention.

I sure hope jinks has the strength to continue posting as its posts like his and others that make forums work. The sniping is a very negative reply to someone wanting to talk bows.

Be that about a longbow. A recurve. A set of arrows. What ever it is.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Stephen Morley said:


> How do you actually know on these Forums they have been there and done it unless you personally know the Archer or can see their tourney achievements recorded on IBO/IFAA/WA sites? Most of the stuff I read I take with a pinch of salt, if some topic does catch my attention enough, I'll invest the time to conduct my own tests and make my own independent opinion. This applies to shooting techniques as well as equipment, just to keep an open mind.
> 
> 
> *People find Jinks hard to take seriously because for years everything is the next best thing, till the next best thing is purchased, never impartial, just enthusiastic posting on his latest purchase, nothing wrong with that as long as you accept it for what it is*. No reason to find his passion for bows annoying as some do, I find it kinda refreshing.



All good points Stephen. 

In my opinion, (and this thread is a perfect example) things stay civil and on topic, right up until the someone disagrees with another's opinion and they decide to take a shot across the bow with a personal insult.

If you look at this thread, in my opinion that shot across the bow came it post #17. Every post prior to that was all about what was being seen in the videos. Nothing to do with the archers, just the videos, the bows and what they were doing. From that post on, JINKS (and others) gave as good as they got. 

All this talk about attacking and harassment is just that. People have a tendency to respond in kind and when you deal in personal insults, that's usually what you get in return. If Border threads attract more than their share of vitriol, it's because of one simple thing in my opinion. Certain people are just unwilling to allow others to post their opinions if they don't mesh with their own. You must agree with a certain opinion and if you don't, you are everything from a troll and a hater to a liar.

Things only get personal when someone makes them personal.

Case in point:






When I posted this video for comparison, numerous people commented on the obvious wobbly limb reaction on the ACS bow. Unlike the videos that were the original subject of this thread, nobody denied what was happening, nobody suggested that there were any ulterior motives or personal agendas against the shooter or ACS, and nobody made any personal attacks in regard to it. Furthermore, the makers of ACS bows didn't immediately jump in to defend their design and suggest that anyone who disagreed with them were trolls and haters. Some people theorized about why it was happening but at the end of the day, it was what it was, and that's where it ended. 

Over the 15+ years I've been participating on these boards, the bowyers that I've seen complaining most about personal attacks, harassment and persecution, are the very same people who didn't seem to have any problem whatsoever critiquing other designs, referencing their failures, and pointing out what they consider to be the flaws in their designs. As I said before, I can only think of three bowyers that have done this to any extent and two of them are no longer in the business. Interestingly enough, their designs still stand on their own but the designers have long ago moved on.

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

KPC Maybe you should avoid Jinks posts. And Jinks avoid your posts?

Maybe thats the key.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

It's tough when it's gets personal (it has for me a few times) and when possible I just walk away, I do Archery for fun. pretty easy on Forums and a little harder on the range but in general my life is more relaxed these days by not giving a #### what others think about me or my equipment choices.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Borderbows said:


> Its already been said that the problem some people have with border is me. And less to do with the product.


I'm sure your bows and limbs perform well and are superbly crafted. I won't own either because of the way you conduct yourself on here and other sites. You've said in the past people throw shade your direction because they can't afford your bows, that may be the case with some but it isn't with me. You mentioned earlier that forums have an ignore feature. So does real life, that's why more people aren't shooting your products. There are a lot more companies out there than just Border that people respond negatively towards, but you're one of the only ones that is constantly getting into these long, protracted arguments online. What do you think Tradtech's reputation would be if John Wert came into every thread where someone gave anything less than a star struck glowing review and belittled people?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Stephen Morley said:


> It's tough when it's gets personal (it has for me a few times) and when possible I just walk away, I do Archery for fun. pretty easy on Forums and a little harder on the range but in general my life is more relaxed these days by *not giving a #### what others think about me or my equipment choices*.


I'm with you on that. 

What I find kind of comical is how we discuss the most minute details of everything we do, from how our broad heads are sharpened, to how much our strings weigh, to the proper "type" of wool we use for our string silencers, to whether or not a 42# at 28" bow drawn to 27 7/8" is enough for deer living in Wisconsin. Heck, I remember a discussion one time where a guy insisted that the only way to orient a broad head on an arrow shaft was vertical so as to pass between the ribs of a deer. When someone reminded him that an arrow rotates numerous times on the way to a deer, he went ballistic telling everyone how he's been hunting for XX years they had no clue that they were talking about.

However, let someone ask a question about how a certain bow's limbs react, or something they saw in a video, or to support a specific theory and you'd think you asked them for nude pictures of their wife, or their Grandma's top secret chocolate chip cookie recipe.

It just gets crazy sometimes.

Lastly, all these folks that keep talking about harassment and personal attacks should have been around when the first short ILF hunting risers were introduced. Heck, I had threats of legal action and physical violence leveled against me. There was even a complete website set up just to ridicule, demean, mock and insult (not to mention tell lies about) those of us who shot a specific brand of one.

:wink: 

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Im sure John Wert will be glad of your custom and your personal choices will allow those that do want to buy a border bow a faster turn around time.

The world is big enough to have choices. I dont have a problem with that. 

If only you could see life through my eyes.
It might help you understand my rational.

I see your point of view. I think its a little bit knee jerk. But thats just my opinion.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> In my opinion, (and this thread is a perfect example) things stay civil and on topic, right up until the someone disagrees with another's opinion and they decide to take a shot across the bow with a personal insult.


Been guilty of that myself (Sorry Kevin). In not being able to distinguish the tone and intent of the text we see, it is often easy to misunderstand what the other person was trying to say, and interpret it either as a personal attack, or an insincere argument. To avoid that, it takes extra effort. I don't think any of the regulars here are really out to grind an axe, and yet, we get friction time to time. To the credit of the posters (and moderators), it doesn't seem to get that hot, for the most part, which is nice, because a lot of the actual discussion is actually pretty interesting.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> The world is big enough to have choices. I dont have a problem with that.


That's a good perspective to have, and to keep, even fall back on when drawn into a conversation that becomes an argument.

I used to be part of the marketing press in audio/video electronics. They were called 'equipment reviewers.'

What I really liked about the job was having conversations with manufacturers without the pretense of the fantasy on which the industry relied, namely that every manufacturer had to tout that they had some kind of proprietary technology that made their products exceptionally better than anybody else's, and that writers, who were most often nothing more than semi-educated consumers, were experts.

I was talking to the marketing guy for a loudspeaker company that certainly played the game as far as coming up with goofy trademarks for their particular implementation of conventional technology, but if you looked at the speakers, didn't look particularly special. Fabric dome conventional tweeters, modestly sized polypropylene (plastic) midrange drivers, and paper-coned subwoofers with unexceptional mechanical travel. I.e., nothing remotely space-aged about them. However, whenever they were measured, they could play pretty darn loud, pretty darn clean, were tonally very accurate, both in overall balance and consistency between close frequencies, _across a wide range of direction_. All of these are virtues in a loudspeaker, and exceptionally boring. That the loudspeakers, regardless of model, contained all of these virtues together, in a consumer product line, was unfortunately exceptionally rare. I asked him why they didn't use something like metal cones in the subwoofers, carbon fiber or 'Aerogel' or something beautiful in the midrange, and an exotic tweeter using a ribbon element or at least something shiny. It wouldn't cost a whole lot more, and they could cash in on those people who bought into the stories of cutting edge technology.

He told me, more or less, that they evaluated all of that and more, for the last 30 years, or whatever it was, and that for what they were trying to accomplish (the virtues listed above), those boring materials were actually either just as good, or better. For instance, subwoofers cones operating in the range that makes it a subwoofer don't change direction fast enough to cause cone breakup, and their treated paper cones were more than strong enough for the job, and far cheaper. The polypropylene midrange drivers _did_ flex more than, say, a metal or carbon fiber cone, but it was actually a design intent, because they were inherently damped enough to avoid standing waves, and because that flexure allowed the center of the cone to move more at very high frequencies (letting the outside of the cone operate almost as a surround), they could get more even dispersion, and a flatter total power response. Their tweeters, despite being plain boring treated fabric, not only reached above the range of human hearing, but they also did it without the uneven response anomalies that some people might mistake as extra 'detail', which they definitely didn't want, because the mission was to deliver an accurate loudspeaker that recording engineers could rely on, which brings me to ultimately my point, almost.

They were essentially designing professional studio monitors, and selling most of their product in the consumer market. Generally speaking, the consumer market cares little about accurate reproduction on a functional level, because it wouldn't know the difference in a direct comparison. In actual evaluation, the decisions are made by subjective preference, and more importantly, by presentation. The subjective personal preference is often described as 'more accurate to my ears,' but the truth is that, scientifically speaking, and pretty consistently, if you objectively measure reactions under blind conditions, people do not want accurate reproduction, they want an 'enhanced' presentation, most often with elevated output at the lowest and highest frequencies of the audible range, like a 'smile' curve for those that remember graphic EQ. This actually makes sense, if you consider that all things being equal, most often what is louder is judged to sound better, so long as it does not become uncomfortable, and the output-depending sensitivity curve of the human ear, the Fletcher-Munson curves....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher–Munson_curves

Essentially, without a reference, the bulk of listeners consider a loudspeaker with a built in 'loudness' curve built in, among other various anomalies that some people will consider 'more revealing'...

Of course, the problem with this, is that the room affects the actual delivered loudspeaker response, and that the loudness curve that is 'nice' at one level will be perceived differently at another, since these curves change with SPL, so... if you take into consideration that there isn't a standardized mixing/mastering target curve or playback level, many audiophiles are constantly changing out equipment looking for something 'better', when in reality if they simply knew how to operate a fully adjustable parametric EQ, and could be honest with themselves about the notion of 'purity,' they could be happy with a lot of different combinations, so long as the system is capable of reproducing the full frequency spectrum at the desired output levels with minimal compression, distortion, and group delay (which is most often overwhelmingly hampered by the room acoustics.) Interestingly, modern developments in audio DSP have made available dynamic target curve equalization marketed as 'room correction' software which is, in reality, mostly a matter of generalized (and tailorable) preference accommodation. Audiophiles categorically reject EQ as a band-aid, because they feel it distorts accuracy, but when it comes to 'correcting' the response of the room (which is actually impossible to do by pre-altering a signal), that's okay...

So... what I'm finally getting at is the last part he told me that...

"We find that if people directly compare our speakers to somebody else's, we get our share of sales, and if they want something else, that's okay."


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> Been guilty of that myself (Sorry Kevin).


Not sure what you are apologizing for Barney, I don't remember you ever taking a personal shot. Even if you have, I have pretty thick skin. I don't take disagreements as personal insults. It might be different if I was using Internet message boards as a marketing platform, but I'm not. 

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Barney. Thanks. I like my music. Ive just read all that 2x. 

I spent a day at Linn Audio a while back. Interesting to see.


Your last bit. Yes... two washing powder manufacturers producing 2 brands. 50/50 market share.
One company produces a second brand. So now sales are split 1/3rd. But its 2/3s to one company.
So the second company produce a second brand. So they are back to 50/50.
Till the isles are full of many brands. But still Two companies.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Not sure what you are apologizing for Barney, I don't remember you ever taking a personal shot. Even if you have, I have pretty thick skin. I don't take disagreements as personal insults.
> 
> KPC


So much the better


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> Barney. Thanks. I like my music. Ive just read all that 2x.
> 
> I spent a day at Linn Audio a while back. Interesting to see.
> 
> ...


Interesting on many levels, in many directions, good and bad. I wouldn't want to pick on them, as they are certainly colorful, sometimes innovative, and genuinely unusual in terms of both application and presentation, and have carved out their own niche of dedicated, satisfied customers... 

Never even considered waging market share war with expanding brands... I wonder if the parent companies ever try to turn the acquisitions of their own brands into stock-fluffing maneuvers...


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

All I can say is wow 

I just came back into Panama City from being on the coast and I thought this thread would be dead by now 

Instead I find a bunch of the usual characters slaying an aging diabetic archer because he likes his new bow and like many bows before he is posting about it 

Yes he got bored because no one was commenting on his tuning videos etc so he posted up the dreaded slow motion video that he new would get some reactions and boy it did 

If you don't know by now that SR's limb tips vibrate more than a conventional limb your an idiot 

Jinks will tell you himself that's he's taken some shots at me because of the same bow but I would of never thought you guys would of been so cruel to him 

Bill has said many times that he has battled addiction etc and that his back yard archery is the tool that he finds to help him find his center the best and yes he likes to write about it 

The shear fact that he has not responded back on here should make you all ashamed 

I've seen the pm's 

I've read the pm's calling him an idiot etc and how happy some are that in your minds he is hurting border with his posts etc 

I ve seen you KEVIN use fake alias etc to have your fun 

And yes this is the first time Kevin I'm responding to you since you used The Whole fake name and insulted my wife thing (remember jacked up blonde fake tits thing ) btw nice video of you shooting your new SR hiding behind your wall...weak buddy as usual 


I'm ashamed to see what you have all done and said to Jinks wether he was right or wrong 

Its one thing to all jump on a person that is on here just trolling looking to stir the pot but anyone that has been on here long enough knows Bill and what these forums and his shooting mean to him 

All I can say is I'm disgusted 

If you don't like Bill stay off his threads 

Sid can handle himself .... his bows imho are the best in the world 

I write about Border bows...... jump on my threads and blast me 

Tell me I'm not a real hunter etc .... I welcome the nonsense 

Bills a person that found solace here .... you guys want to take that from him and make him feel less .... shame on you 

You guys want to belittle someone.... belittle me ...... 

I have a new set of Border limbs with a new core hanging on my rack that I will be doing a video on when I get back in the states 

Line up and take a shot 

I'll keep shooting Border limbs killing critters with them and telling people how much I like them and no I don't work for Border and I pay for my bows 

Bill I fly back to the states tomorrow and I'll give you a call 

I can't believe no one else has stuck up for Bill 

Wrong or right he's a part of this forum.....uses his real name and I'm sure you have hurt him 

I hope you are all happy


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JParanee said:


> I can't believe no one else has stuck up for Bill


No disrespect to Bill, but he seemed to be doing fine on his own.

I enjoy Bill's videos, and hope he continues doing them. 

Bill, if you feel slighted by anything I've said, done, or not done, please understand that it wasn't my intention.

No privy to the PMs you're talking about, that if they're as you describe, that sounds a bit petty. 

Best suggestion I have about that kind of thing is what a VC friend once told me, "Whatever man..." Sometimes there comes a point when participation becomes pointless. Ignore the bait.

Anyhow, glad you're back.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

I can only speak for myself, but I can assure anyone reading this that nothing I said was done with any ill intentions toward Jinks. Should I have pm'd him instead? Looking back maybe I should have. Jinks has in the past taken what most would consider cheap shots at a few people too, his post about the 10 year old Titan with a 9" brace height and limb bolts backed all the way out being one of them. The way he responded to Jim Casto Jr seemed to be an over reaction to me as well. I know of his past struggles but I've never got the impression he wasn't capable of holding his own. He does just fine in that regard. 

Joe, I can appreciate your desire to come to the defense of Bill, but the tough guy shtick isn't impressing anyone.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JParanee:

I have no desire to have a tit for tat with you but seeing that you called me out specifically, let's get a couple things cleared up once and for all.

*1.* I *NEVER* said a word about *your wife*, period. The fact that you took an analogy I was making between expensive limbs and inexpensive limps personally is your issue, not mine. Here is what I said, in it's entirety and in context. 



GEREP said:


> Actually JP, I don't mean to be a nitpicker here, but I think it's important.
> 
> The OP actually asked:
> 
> ...


It wasn't until later in the thread that *YOU* asked me if I had ever seen your *"old lady"* (your term not mine), and that just like everything in life, *"you like them jacked up"* (again, your term, not mine). I don't know your wife, had never seen your wife and would have *NO WAY* of knowing anything about her. Nor have I ever or would I ever make derogatory comments about someone's family. I would know no more about her breasts than I would about her lips, her hair, or the color of her riser...which were also all included in my analogy. It was simply a way of saying that some people like certain things and they are willing to pay for them, *"but they still don't have anything to do with improving the function for which they were designed"* (my term). 

The subject of your wife's breasts (which *YOU* brought up, not me) was all fun and games until you want to try to use it as a way to make me look a certain way. Well, I would encourage everyone that is interested to read the entire thread and make their own judgment as to whether or not I was *"insulting your wife"* or not. It was *YOU* that insinuated that your wife was *"jacked up,"* not me.



JParanee said:


> Kev
> 
> No worries about nitpicking .... I always enjoy the conversations we have
> 
> ...





*2.* Please spare us the drama about your new found shock. Much of what others are saying about JINKS' theories (not JINKS personally) are very close to what you were saying about them too...*prior to him buying a CH.* That one thread is a wealth of information in terms of how things change when someone's equipment of choice changes. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2472663


Just as I told Sid, this will be the last time I respond to you. Say anything you like about me, I couldn't care less. Make no mistake though, if you say something about me that isn't true, I won't let it stand.

Oh, and one more thing. I guess if I'm shooting a *"new SR"* now, I've been shooting one for the last decade seeing that the bottom of the line Uukhas I'm currently shooting have the same standard profile as my Extreme BFs.









KPC


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe/Bill apologies if anything I said offended either of you, I made a couple of critics, some humor and some questions, none of which intended to be insulting or give malice. I read through my posts and don't feel I overstepped the line anywhere, at worst maybe Sid could have interpreted some questions by me directed at him as an attack on his product but from the way he replied he obviously took them as sincere questions, as they were intended.


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## skramr12 (Dec 20, 2014)

Did I ever tell anyone how much I like turtles...

I think it's going to be a long winter. 

I don't post much on here but I usually sit back and read the threads at night, unwinding from a hard day's work.

I enjoy the questions, stories and experiences from everyone. Even if some are pretty far off from my way of thinking or my experiences...and if I don't agree? I have the power to click to the next.

I have made some good friends on here, JParanee and also Jinks for example. They both have gone out of their way to give me a helping hand when I had questions. We are a tight knit group with the odds against us believe it or not, the majority isn't trad. I shoot Traditional and Compound bows but am a Competition Shooter primarily. 

I myself have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other in a very short period with this traditional stuff from Bears to Borders and everything in between. Every bow I desired, until I got it, shot it, and then the search began for the next "The Bow". Just like the search for the perfect Trap or Skeet gun lol.

Some people enjoy one bow and will hunt with it their whole life.
Some people enjoy hunting so much and the bow is just the tool to use.
Some people enjoy bows and the hunt to find the next "perfect one".

Either way, most everyone usually has something to add to make this site better than the others, I have learned a lot. 

Ending, you guys sound like a bunch of school girls, I'm sure Jinks has thick skin and can take it as much as he can dish it  and even though I really like Border Bows a lot their website sucks!!

Peace out -Ray-


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

What was it Obama just said? something about stopping arguing on the internet and talking face to face.

Believe me boys, the block function is your friend.

But, wow….. all that over a few expensive bent sticks


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

marcelxl said:


> But, wow….. all that over a few expensive bent sticks


It could be worse, people in north Africa are basically killing each other over who's book tells the best fairy tale.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Stephen Morley said:


> It could be worse, people in north Africa are basically killing each other over who's book tells the best fairy tale.


Oh no he di-nt!


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I'm reminded of Bender's signature line. 




"Don't believe everything you think."


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> No disrespect to Bill, but he seemed to be doing fine on his own.
> 
> I enjoy Bill's videos, and hope he continues doing them.
> 
> ...


Barney 

Nothing I said was meant for you 

You are a well d[oken gentlmsn with only good intention 

I'm not back yet stuck in Panama City till tomorrow than back to the cold  

I did catch the Black Marlin I was looking for so it was a good trip 

But thx for the welcome back


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Sauk Mountain said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I can assure anyone reading this that nothing I said was done with any ill intentions toward Jinks. Should I have pm'd him instead? Looking back maybe I should have. Jinks has in the past taken what most would consider cheap shots at a few people too, his post about the 10 year old Titan with a 9" brace height and limb bolts backed all the way out being one of them. The way he responded to Jim Casto Jr seemed to be an over reaction to me as well. I know of his past struggles but I've never got the impression he wasn't capable of holding his own. He does just fine in that regard.
> 
> Joe, I can appreciate your desire to come to the defense of Bill, but the tough guy shtick isn't impressing anyone.


I'm surprised at the tough guy comment and believe me I'm not trying to impress anyone especially a nameless faceless person on the internet 

Over the years I've had my run ins with bill but we have always remanded friends and I'm not one to jump on with the group and pick on anyone ...... do if I can deflect any of the cruelness shown Bill I'm glad too


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

GEREP said:


> JParanee:
> 
> I have no desire to have a tit for tat with you but seeing that you called me out specifically, let's get a couple things cleared up once and for all.
> 
> ...



Kevin 

I am ashamed to say you are the only person I truly dislike on any forum 

I know you don't care.... and that's fine 

My reason is simple 

I did like you and considered you an internet friend till you used fake screen names and attacked all things Border including me 

Please deny it so Sid or I can post up the proof for all to see your true colors 

Your disdain for all things Border is just weird and pathetic 

As for your comments that offended me your search skills are all to good to deny not knowing what my wife looks like for she has been posted on here shooting bows etc 

I just hope someday to be able to meet you at a shoot so we can have a good laugh together  

As for now I'll go back to ignoring you like I have for the last 2 years


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> Joe/Bill apologies if anything I said offended either of you, I made a couple of critics, some humor and some questions, none of which intended to be insulting or give malice. I read through my posts and don't feel I overstepped the line anywhere, at worst maybe Sid could have interpreted some questions by me directed at him as an attack on his product but from the way he replied he obviously took them as sincere questions, as they were intended.


Stephen 

You of all people need never apologize to me.....I have not been part of this conversation till just tonight 

You are a world champion and walk the walk and I have the highest respect for you


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

marcelxl said:


> What was it Obama just said? something about stopping arguing on the internet and talking face to face.


That was one of my more favorite things that he's said. So, if you're in the area, want to hang out shoot stuff? We can pretend to insult each other, or do it for real if you're into that. So long as you're having fun, I aim to please


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

JParanee said:


> Stephen
> 
> You are a world champion and walk the walk and I have the highest respect for you


It just means I can shoot a bow well sometimes, I'm human, my mouth can say stupid stuff on occasion :zip:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Joe (and all who respond like we were face too face)....thanks for the concern but please just let this thread die.

I had already bailed on this thread....far too ugly for me...and then I got a PM from the administration warning me to stop the back and forth with a certain member here and apparently?....that warning only applied to me.

If that's the way things rolling here?....I may as well be banned....the mob mentality has been invoked and the bias is disgusting.

My friends know who they are (as do my enemies)....and I dearly hope to meet both of you at shoots one day. L8R, Bill.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

So am i right in saying one guy recieved threat of legal action. Over a previous topic. Hides under an alias to attack another product. When called out denied it. But was caught red handed. Insults another guys wife. Predicts the demise of a company. And calls all this research.


Gotta chuckle. Welcome to the internet.

No wonder i dont take it personally. This is worse than the TV series wives of (insert location here)

Then you look at the tales of woe on a product and notice its the same handfull of names keep resurfacing. Keep the internet hype up.

Yet as pointed out. Plenty of happy customers. Full orderbooks and problems meeting demand.

Thats why i dont care for a handfull of toxic opinions.

My thoughts are. Others see these toxic opinions and treat them as such. The population at large are not silly people. They see through these attacks.
The people at large have already branded the on line personalities. And everytime they pass coment. They are duly read and filed appropreatly.
So any name that crops of that isnt known. Is then treated with caution. So even aliases dont hold much credability.
Like the threat i recieved from exstringwalkerjack and the several names he has had since.
I called him out under his new name. Hes never posted since. Well. Under that name.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I thought that I left all of this petty character attacks on the compound side.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

I am afriad to say most of this predates the hex6 bb2.

So its now the hex7s turn.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> So am i right in saying one guy recieved threat of legal action. Over a previous topic. Hides under an alias to attack another product. When called out denied it. But was caught red handed. Insults another guys wife. Predicts the demise of a company. And calls all this research.
> .


It's a shame you can't riser above this, dishing out below the belt blows like this just stirs the pot.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> All I can say is wow
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe no one else has stuck up for Bill


Joe, you seem like a good hearted guy but I think this post is...misguided (for lack of a better term).

Why should anybody stick up for Bill? I mean if he were being mugged, beaten, robbed or molested, I'd like to think I would stick up for him...he being so crippled and all. That's not what's going on here though, is it?

I don't know if you noticed but Bill is something of a master at getting in his little insulting digs.

Oh and I'm about his age with my own health (and other ) issues. I just don't usually care to parade them across the net.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stephen Morley said:


> It's a shame you can't riser above this, dishing out below the belt blows like this just stirs the pot.


Am i too not allowed to be disgusted, at the behaviour that our customers recieve online. Including on FB pages like the barebow group. 
Our customers being trolled with cheap shots from 1 or 2 people.

Someone asks what limbs do you shoot. And the first person mentions they are happy with our limbs and boom 2 usual suspects jump on them.

Is that acceptable?

Or should these people be called out?

So tue rational is like this: someone places an order on us. I start receiving private messsages from not one, not 2 but 3 people that the person is calling me names by PM, i recieve screenshotsof the conversation, So i cancle that persons order and refund them any deposit, as im not interested in doing business with people that call me names. And then for 2 years and counting, who ever lifts borders name gets erroded by this one persons venom.

Yeah yeah. Welcome to the internet. Where free speech superceeds facts, logic or reason.

Am i to sit back and watch my customers recieve someones personal vendeta.
Or do i highlight the rubbish that goes on?

All this is personailty. And very little to do with facts.

My question still stands. What research can you do, when this is what the internet has boiled down to


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Well you're on a very public forum no matter how you handle it, you're doing as much damage to yourself as you are to the person you're attacking.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I'm reminded of Bender's signature line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a lot of truth to this Jim.


Another one I like is: 

*"Repeating lies doesn't make them true"*


KPC


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> Joe, you seem like a good hearted guy but I think this post is...misguided (for lack of a better term).
> 
> Why should anybody stick up for Bill? I mean if he were being mugged, beaten, robbed or molested, I'd like to think I would stick up for him...he being so crippled and all. That's not what's going on here though, is it?
> 
> ...


Fair enough my friend and I understand your point ....I've just never been one to jump on any band wagon to that would hurt someone else's feelings or lively hood 

Life's hard enough and I'm just to busy 

I wish everyone on here happiness and prosperity 

I don't care what they shoot or how they shoot it 

Btw I love an underdog 

Bill was a competitor at one time and I hope he shows the world he's got another run no matter what bow he's shooting 

Bill and I have had our comments to each other at times but never low blows and he knows that my phone is always on and what ever he needs if it is in my power I'll do it 

Some would like you to believe it's because Bill is shooting the same bow as I am 

Well I think Bill will be the first to tell you this is not true 

Many on here run the nasty comments with total animity 

I dont 

I know many on here on a face to face basis 

I'm not the best shot ...... but I've never claimed to be ..... hence my respect to guys like Morley , Demmer , Martin , Rogers etc 

I have killed and hooked more critters with arrows and bullets than most and when it comes to speaking of hunting bows I'm not an arm chair aficionado 

I don't spell or write the best but I'm sincere and I would never try and damage any company or person 

Even the bout I had with James Thom awhile back ended with him admitting to me in a pm that he was a troll and didn't even shoot a stick bow he was just bored at work looking to fire people up 

Even after he got banned and I read his pm to me admitting what he was doingi felt bad and wished I would not have been part of his undoing 

That's just me 

Heading to airport now 

Can't believe I've wasted this much time on this while traveling but I just filled my feeble mind with enough memories over the last few days to last another lifetime so I feel good and widh only a better attitude on here to all


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Joe nice picture looks a lot warmer than where I am at the moment lol

Trying to get warmed up with these hot topics


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Fair enough my friend and I understand your point ....I've just never been one to jump on any band wagon to that would hurt someone else's feelings or lively hood
> 
> Life's hard enough and I'm just to busy
> 
> ...


I don't know about you but I think I've already said more than I should have. LOL

Glad you had a good trip. I sure would like to be someplace warm.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

> ...I've just never been one to jump on any band wagon to that would hurt someone else's feelings...



Me either.




> ...I can't believe no one else has stuck up for Bill...


... and I can't believe no one came to my defense for Bill's snide sniping and condescending attacks! * I'm crushed!*










You know what gets under my skin so bad that I can hardly sleep and night? It just constantly eats at me. I wish you and Bill would learn the difference between *to and too*. I just can't take it any more. Another thing that's even worse and really tears me up is people using *then for than*. My goodness, it's *then/now or rather/than*. Now.... these are important things and really need to be addressed. Some of you people really need to get your priorities in order. 

Seriously... don't you think it's about time to put on the big boy pants and move along?


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## olddogrib (Apr 4, 2014)

Pop Quiz...what do this thread and the Energizer Bunny have in common????


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

olddogrib said:


> Pop Quiz...what do this thread and the Energizer Bunny have in common????


They both make a clacky noise. Lol.
Dan


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Me either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thx for the English lesson Jimmy 

Like I said earlier my spelling and grammar is not the best ..... no college here and i spent my high school getting out after 3 classes a day and going to work ..... plus most my posts are done from a cell phone I can hardly see the screen on  

As for big boy pants .... well what can I say .... I have a strong disdain for rude people


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm resurrecting this God awful thread for one reason and that reason is....

Because I figured out why my Hex7 Covert Hunters comparatively excessive limb flapping caught so much negative attention (when it was other things I was attempting to illustrate)...and since none of the stone throwing road scholars figured it out before they began throwing rocks?...here's why....and in my mind?...it's called....

*"THE REBOUND EFFECT"*

and the reason mine was comparatively over the top and off the chain is because....*My CH's Big Hooks were Slinging 13GPP.*

Ever seen what a diving board does after the anorexic twink does a swan dive and then the big fat dude does a cannonball?

Well when you're used to seeing slomo's of archers loosing 6-8gpp arrows off conventional bows and then I come along nocking up 13GPP on big hooks?....

My arrows became the fat dude and my limbs became the diving board.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Don't think so JINKS. 

Every slo mo vid I've seen of the big hooks do the same thing regardless of arrow weight.

Besides, your diving board analogy doesn't apply. A *"fat dude"* actually bends a diving board farther than a skinny dude. However your arrow isn't bending the bow, you are. You draw (bend) your bow the same distance every time regardless of how much the arrow weighs. 

A heavier arrow will absorb *more* of wobble (rebound) than a light arrow, not the opposite.

A more accurate analogy would be to bend a diving board to a certain point and put a *skinny dude* on it an let it go. Measure how far it rebounds while lifting said skinny dude. Now bend the same diving board to the same point and put a *fat dude* on it and let it go. Measure how far it rebounds while lifting said fat dude.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which will rebound more. 

KPC


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