# Hoyt dropping there contengency money for 3d pros.



## woodsman78

How deep are the cuts DB


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## carlosii

haven't heard this one...where did ya dig it up Dan'l?


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## tmorelli

It was being discussed in gen pop a few days ago.... everyone just assumed the OP was talking Mathews.

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## Daniel Boone

carlosii said:


> haven't heard this one...where did ya dig it up Dan'l?


Got my sources and it came right from the shooters. Hoping other manufacturers don't follow as well.

As the 3d season fires up will notice the swap in shirts.


DB


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## bhtr3d

Daniel Boone said:


> Got my sources and it came right from the shooters. Hoping other manufacturers don't follow as well.
> 
> As the 3d season fires up will notice the swap in shirts.
> 
> 
> DB


Got your sources???? LOL ok deep thoat (jk) just a ribbin' dan  ..........LOL but let's ''get serious '' shouldn't this be between the parties its pertaining to??? I am sure '''those'''' of us that know people know what is going on.... It is sad...but this is business and it happens , sadly .


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## Daniel Boone

bhtr3d said:


> Got your sources???? LOL ok deep thoat (jk) just a ribbin' dan  ..........LOL but let's ''get serious '' shouldn't this be between the parties its pertaining to??? I am sure '''those'''' of us that know people know what is going on.... It is sad...but this is business and it happens , sadly .


It happening. Always does. Hoyt choice for sure. You not telling me nothing I dont know.

I didnt say any names because it is there business.

Pro got to go where they can make some money and dont blame them.

These guys wont have any problems being picked up.

Contengency paid money are advertised. No big secret. 
DB


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## threetoe

Corporations scaling back? Sad but true.
This is just part of the HELL we are going to be seeing over the next 4 years under that POS Obama.

The DOW is STILL tanking from this election. 
The layoffs and downsizing will be massive and have already begun.
Next January we'll see the most INSANE tax increase in the history of the World.
(but it will ONLY affect the workers, The lazy morons among us will not be affected)

Please see the movie "Idiocracy" to see where America is heading. 

Obama Voters have IQ's < 80.


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## wsbark01

Daniel Boone said:


> What a shame. Going to lose alot of loyal die hard Hoyt guys who have faithfully supported them for many years.
> 
> 
> Hope all this Im being told is untrue.
> 
> Queesing its not a top priority.
> DB


So is this just for 3D (ASA, IBO)? or will this be for all forms of target archery (Field, Vegas, Ext.)?


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## Daniel Boone

wsbark01 said:


> So is this just for 3D (ASA, IBO)? or will this be for all forms of target archery (Field, Vegas, Ext.)?


Honestly just heard about 3d contengency drop. I would quess the next month NFAA magazine should have them listed.

DB


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## N7709K

indoor/fita contingencies may go up... hoyt has a much larger following in both of those venues


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## NC ladyarcher

what is the current hoyt 3d contengency payouts for pro class. sad. I may be wrong, but I expect that the other companies will too....Hope not,,,,, but here is my thinking, " why should we pay out more $"


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Thanks Obama!


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## southgaboy

not sure what effect this will have on 3D events such as the ASA , but it can't be good when money leaves.


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## zachbb42

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Thanks Obama!


Hahaha give me a break with the politics


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

zachbb42 said:


> Hahaha give me a break with the politics


Denny's, Twinkies, Hoyt....
:-(


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## hrtlnd164

Is this for all 3-D venues or just IBO? Maybe the decision to go away from Mckenzie has some bearing on the decision to cut contingency.


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## N7709K

more than likely all 3d venues, might be all venues across the board as well; i doubt that its all encompassing but it may be


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## JimmyP

Mathews has not dropped there's catch us if you can.sorry I could not resist.since there is so many mathew haters on here


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## 3rdplace

Hoyt's contingency last year was only half of PSE and Mathews. $5000/$10000


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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> It happening. Always does. Hoyt choice for sure. You not telling me nothing I dont know.
> 
> I didnt say any names because it is there business.
> 
> Pro got to go where they can make some money and dont blame them.
> 
> These guys wont have any problems being picked up.
> 
> Contengency paid money are advertised. No big secret.
> DB


You're right, they won't have any problem being picked up. On the contrary, it isn't hard to replace shooters either.


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## Jame

Biggest thing is Bow companies shouldnt be the only ones paying big money. Just think about the organizations 20 years ago. They paid the money. Thats where it should come from. Bigger sponsors means better money but when only archery companies are sponsoring the shoots and shooters its hard to pay out large contingencies to the pros. I hate it but its reality. Target archery isnt gonna grow as a Nationally know sport until there are larger sponsors and the organizations are paying larger amounts for top places. 
All I can say is look at the pay outs 20 years ago. You would think they would be better now. 
Please dont take this as bashing the organizations because I am not. They work hard. I just wish they could reach out to bigger and better sponsors and then the sponsors see a return on there investments. Thats what its all about when it comes to sponsors.
Just my thoughts.
Jame


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## SonnyThomas

Meanwhile, over in the ASA Forums, some one started a Post in want of making the Known 50 class a Pro class. IF Hoyt is dropping out of 3D... Okay, where would the contengency money come from to support another Pro class? And I looked over the Known 50 class for this last year, maybe a average of 25 in class - low in the teens and high of 34, I think.


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> You're right, they won't have any problem being picked up. On the contrary, it isn't hard to replace shooters either.


Not easy to find guys who make shoot offs and win. Very few pros will ever see a shoot off.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

SonnyThomas said:


> Meanwhile, over in the ASA Forums, some one started a Post in want of making the Known 50 class a Pro class. IF Hoyt is dropping out of 3D... Okay, where would the contengency money come from to support another Pro class? And I looked over the Known 50 class for this last year, maybe a average of 25 in class - low in the teens and high of 34, I think.


Always thought the known distance class would bring those target shooters and felt this was something Hoyt wanted.
3d means bowhunters and those guys buy most the bows. Never understood why Hoyt wouldnt want to support the 3d market.
DB


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## N7709K

known class wouldn't draw a ton of target shooters; fita trumps 3d for target guys.


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## Daniel Boone

N7709K said:


> known class wouldn't draw a ton of target shooters; fita trumps 3d for target guys.


Put up the sponsor money for good payouts and lets see.
DB


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

Hoyt dropped fita money for 2012 also if I remember correctly.


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## N7709K

with regards to fita, the many contingency isn't a main focus of the shooters.. USAT/WC teams and the benefits from that are; 3d can never provide the perks that come with a spot on the WC team let alone the payout that a WC leg has. If they are cutting across the board; i haven't heard yet, but its not really a big deal if they are.


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## tmorelli

SonnyThomas said:


> Meanwhile, over in the ASA Forums, some one started a Post in want of making the Known 50 class a Pro class. IF Hoyt is dropping out of 3D... Okay, where would the contengency money come from to support another Pro class? And I looked over the Known 50 class for this last year, maybe a average of 25 in class - low in the teens and high of 34, I think.


That's me and I personally don't think the class being pro is about contingency.....it's about growing the game. How many are in Open Pro on average? What's that number been doing for several years?

Growing the game makes it more likely to produce better returns for investors (sponsors).



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## asa3dpro

Yea, but..
It takes alot of gall to say that the 3d shooters doesn't benefit Hoyt!
Around 90% of the 3d shooters are hunters too. So, with that said how will the hunting bow sales be affected? 
Also, these jack wagons waited till the last moment to drop this sort of bomb on the pro staffers when they knew that the other companies positions was possibly full. Very poor business practices...

I got a couple cheap Hoyts for sale I'll not support them anymore. PM me if your interested.


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## N7709K

the fluctuation in hunting bow sales in regards to hoyt dropping contingency is miniscule at best; 3d shooters don't influence anywhere near the numbers that TV personalities do. Besides the number of shooters who are actually effected by the loss of contingency is very small.


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## SET THE HOOK

What a shame! Heck the top Hoyt 3D shooters can go shoot real bows now! J/k..top shooters will get picked up elsewhere. But what a crock! Gonna be interesting to see what top Hoyt shooters are shooting when ASA starts up.

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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> Not easy to find guys who make shoot offs and win. Very few pros will ever see a shoot off.
> DB


A company rarely sees much R.O.I. from one shooter, regardless of how much they win. It would be much better for the company, from an investment standpoint, to dump an expensive guy and pick up three to four for the same total price. It's not always about finishing on the podium. Bottom line is the bottom line, how many people can one guy connect with? How many people does one guy influence? Rather than having one guy who influences 100, it's better to have 3 or 4 who influence 40. If you can keep the total pay the same, and the output goes up, that's good business. 

$10,000 will do a lot more for a company in a magazine ad or a tv commercial, than it will on some guys contingency check in a sport with an EXTREMELY limited audience.


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## RMC

I heard the shop shooters are getting thier bows at 50% off dealer cost this year. Maybe they are putting the money where the most contact is made. In classes other then pro. Most of the pros dont hang around the shoots when they are done shooting like the other class shooters do. times are tough for everyone right now and it wont get any easier for some time and companies of all sizes are making adjustment to try and make it through theses times


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## Daniel Boone

RMC said:


> I heard the shop shooters are getting thier bows at 50% off dealer cost this year. Maybe they are putting the money where the most contact is made. In classes other then pro. Most of the pros dont hang around the shoots when they are done shooting like the other class shooters do. times are tough for everyone right now and it wont get any easier for some time and companies of all sizes are making adjustment to try and make it through theses times


They have always had a coop program.

I assure you when Dan Mcarthy wins it big time news!

Hard to advertise amatuers in magazines.
DB


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## RMC

I know they have a coop program but it was 30% under dealer cost last year. There are alot more coop shooters than pros that shoot hoyt in IBO and the average joe who keeps the archery business alive is going to be exposed to alot more coop shooters than pros. Im a coop shooter for a hoyt dealer and have sold more bows for the shop than Dan Mcarthy has. Dans a great shooter and a great guy but most of the local joes I come in contact with on a weekly basis have no idea who he is. These are the guys who pay the bills.


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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> They have always had a coop program.
> 
> I assure you when Dan Mcarthy wins it big time news!
> 
> Hard to advertise amatuers in magazines.
> DB


It might be big news to you, but 99.9% of people in archery have no clue who Dan is. Michael Waddell killing a whitetail has a much bigger impact for Hoyt than any shooter winning any tournament. We know you have a genuine interest for the pros, Dan, and they are all great guys; but at some point you have to take economics into consideration.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> Meanwhile, over in the ASA Forums, some one started a Post in *want of making the Known 50 class a Pro class*. IF Hoyt is dropping out of 3D... Okay, where would the contengency money come from to support another Pro class? And I looked over the Known 50 class for this last year, maybe a average of 25 in class - low in the teens and high of 34, I think.





Daniel Boone said:


> *Always thought the known distance class would bring those target shooters *and felt this was something Hoyt wanted.
> 3d means bowhunters and those guys buy most the bows. Never understood why Hoyt wouldnt want to support the 3d market.
> DB





tmorelli said:


> That's me and I personally don't think the class being pro is about contingency.....*it's about growing the game*. How many are in Open Pro on average? What's that number been doing for several years?
> 
> Growing the game makes it more likely to produce better returns for investors (sponsors).


Yes, we all thought the Known classes would capture spot shooters, but didn't. Oddly, I sat in meetings where spot shooters wanted 3D a known game in the NFAA, actually cried about it, and where are they?




asa3dpro said:


> Yea, but..
> It takes alot of gall to say that the 3d shooters doesn't benefit Hoyt!
> Around 90% of the 3d shooters are hunters too. So, with that said how will the hunting bow sales be affected?
> Also, these jack wagons waited till the last moment to drop this sort of bomb on the pro staffers when they knew that the other companies positions was possibly full. Very poor business practices...
> 
> I got a couple cheap Hoyts for sale I'll not support them anymore. PM me if your interested.


By your avatar and name.... You confirming Hoyt dropping out?


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## tmorelli

You guys are strong in the made up statistics department.










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## dbwasps2

I have a passion for 3D archery like most of everyone on those forum does. And I also thank that it sucks for the pros that will be affected by this. However ask yourself this question, how many people watch a ASA or IBO event other then the people at the event? And how many people watch hunting shows daily. To be quite honest I'm surprised that all bowanufactures have not scaled back more then they have in the 3D Venue. If you were the exectuive management of Hoyt where would you put your money. Just my 2 cents.


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## carlosii

see sometimes it pays (?) to be an average or below average shooter like me... don't have to sit up nights worrying about my sponsors coming through for me.

be interesting to see the impact come florida and to see if they continue support as a pro am sponsor....let's see, are these all under the easton corp family umbrella; hoyt, mckenzie/delta, easton...????


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## damnyankee

From my understanding from good source, Hoyt's contigency program cuts for every type of sanction

I know semi pro will be the most competetive class next year, have heard of 5 high level pros returning to semi for 2013


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

damnyankee said:


> From my understanding from good source, Hoyt's contigency program cuts for every type of sanction
> 
> I know semi pro will be the most competetive class next year, have heard of 5 high level pros returning to semi for 2013


If they are high level they wouldn't be returning to semi. Plus with the new payback system it will keep people in the pros longer. 

Let's face it hunting is what sells bows in the US. 3D helps sales with the guys who compete, but doesn't effect the guys who just hunt. Someone sai it before what Waddell does on camera helps Hoyt more.


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## MrKrabs

Daniel Boone said:


> Not easy to find guys who make shoot offs and win. Very few pros will ever see a shoot off.
> DB


I'm with a few others on this one. I imagine Bone Collectors sells more bows for Hoyt than all their tournament pros combined. Their roi is much better on hunting shows so why spend it sponsoring tournament shooters? I can't believe Mathews has as many people on staff as they do.


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## N7709K

contingency is NOT contract deals with pro shooters or tv personalities, contingency is just money paid out if you win with their product. 

if they are putting that money towards more tv personalities, yeah its too bad from a shooter standpoint, but its the best way to sell product. Going down across all venues isn't so bad either


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## okarcher

I guess time will tell and we'll see who was right. But your still taking money out of archery and it can't be good for any of us.


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## Daniel Boone

okarcher said:


> I guess time will tell and we'll see who was right. But your still taking money out of archery and it can't be good for any of us.


Chad you remember when Bobby Ketcher was winning championships for Hoyt? Oklahoma was a Hoyt state and biggest manufactuer seller. Hoyt not even close now. Im queesing Bowtech and Mathews are the two bow manufactuers most dealers tell me there selling.
I shot Hoyt back then because of Ketcher. But Bowtech doing fine with no pro staff. 

I dont ever see Hoyt being top bow manufactuer in my state again.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

MrKrabs said:


> I'm with a few others on this one. I imagine Bone Collectors sells more bows for Hoyt than all their tournament pros combined. Their roi is much better on hunting shows so why spend it sponsoring tournament shooters? I can't believe Mathews has as many people on staff as they do.


Mathews is number one in bow sales. Hoyt not even close to Mathews. What Mathews doing is working. NASP is a great progranm as well.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> It might be big news to you, but 99.9% of people in archery have no clue who Dan is. Michael Waddell killing a whitetail has a much bigger impact for Hoyt than any shooter winning any tournament. We know you have a genuine interest for the pros, Dan, and they are all great guys; but at some point you have to take economics into consideration.


Might take notice how many Mathews hunting 3d pros kill hunting. Mathews is ever where in hunting shows. 
Mathews is leading in advertising and supporting archery pros. Great to see a manufactuer who gives back in both worlds.
DB


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## MrKrabs

Daniel Boone said:


> Mathews is number one in bow sales. Hoyt not even close to Mathews. What Mathews doing is working. NASP is a great progranm as well.
> DB


I agree nasp is a great program and also helps them gain shooters for life. Mathews also seems to sponsor a lot of big name hunting shows. I had never heard of Levi Morgan, Reo, or any other tournament shooter until I started shooting tournaments last year. I imagine 90% or more hunters are the same way. We're a very small market unfortunately.


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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> Might take notice how many Mathews hunting 3d pros kill hunting. Mathews is ever where in hunting shows.
> Mathews is leading in advertising and supporting archery pros. Great to see a manufactuer who gives back in both worlds.
> DB


I guess none of what I said sank in for you. Oh well, I did my best to explain it in Layman's terms.

The ironic part is that you are all about your German bow, and they have maybe ten total staff shooters, and I would imagine they have zero American employees.


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## Jame

N7709K said:


> with regards to fita, the many contingency isn't a main focus of the shooters.. USAT/WC teams and the benefits from that are; 3d can never provide the perks that come with a spot on the WC team let alone the payout that a WC leg has. If they are cutting across the board; i haven't heard yet, but its not really a big deal if they are.


Not really a big deal when you are not one of the guys effected. Some of these guys use this as one of there main sources of income. You get cut 66% from your job and see how you like it. Better yet send me 66% of your check.


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## Jame

TylerTexas said:


> I guess none of what I said sank in for you. Oh well, I did my best to explain it in Layman's terms.
> 
> The ironic part is that you are all about your German bow, and they have maybe ten total staff shooters, and I would imagine they have zero American employees.


It might not have sank in to him the way you wanted it to but I promise you it sank in. Real deep. 
What part do you not get. 66% pay cut is horrible. Like I said before give me 66% of your check. See how you like that. You wont. 

Mathews doesnt have Field Reps and they lead the industry in marketing and 3d prostaff. Sure looks like they do something rt because they sure sell a ton of bows every yr. 
I say get rid of the reps and do it like Mathews and have alot of prostaff and will have more money for advertisement. 
Jame


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## N7709K

Your implying every shooter who uses a Hoyt is able to get the couple hundred for contigency; against all the other competition, all the factory pros... I'm sorry but not every shooter is in the running for contingency. Contingency is NOT a paid contract as YOU know! It's money paid out when their product is on the podium. They didn't pay out every shoot.

A 66% cut to my wages still puts me making more than enough to live off of; if you went only off contingency for 3dyou wouldn't net more than what 15k in an ENTIRE season? And that means you win EVERY shoot, supplimentay yes, but as main income no


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## Jame

Like okarcher said before. Regardless how you side. Its still taking money out of archery. Now what do the serious target archers have to look forward to for HOYT. Nothing. If the other companies decide to do the same then 3D as a whole will slowly die. 

Now I do agree about ROI. Thats why I say each target archer should be checked in on sometime. Each target archer should have requirements they have to meet other than winning. Promoting. Helping at archery shops when they have time or even helping the field reps out when they have time. If they dont meet the requirements each yr then get rid of them and get someone else. That simple. Theres more to a prostaff then just shooting and not one Prostaff shooter is to good to do these things.
Jame


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## Jame

N7709K said:


> Your implying every shooter who uses a Hoyt is able to get the couple hundred for contigency; against all the other competition, all the factory pros... I'm sorry but not every shooter is in the running for contingency. Contingency is NOT a paid contract as YOU know! It's money paid out when their product is on the podium. They didn't pay out every shoot.
> 
> A 66% cut to my wages still puts me making more than enough to live off of; if you went only off contingency for 3dyou wouldn't net more than what 15k in an ENTIRE season? And that means you win EVERY shoot, supplimentay yes, but as main income no



No sir. You are wrong. Lets try 10K for first and now its 3K. That equals actually more than 66%. 70%

Im not implying that every shooter gets money at every tournament. What I am implying is we have the opportunity to make money at every tournament and now that it has been cut 66% the drive to practice and work your tail end off isnt worth it. There are some of these that rely on Tournament money. So like I said before would you like to have your pay cut by 66%.
Jame


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## okarcher

Its real simple Jame if they haven't received or shot for that kind of contingency from hoyt or even played at the pro level they just don't get why its important. Will this bankrupt hoyt, no but will it hurt sales it could. Simple fact its just not a good thing for archery when mfg's start pulling money out of the sport.


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## Bubba Dean

Why can't the Pros just shooting for entry fee money like the amateurs do? Why do manufacturers have to supplement the Pros?


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## Daniel Boone

Bubba Dean said:


> Why can't the Pros just shooting for entry fee money like the amateurs do? Why do manufacturers have to supplement the Pros?


I dont think you understand the concept of pro class. Its the best archers shooting for money. Kinda the same in all sports.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> I guess none of what I said sank in for you. Oh well, I did my best to explain it in Layman's terms.
> 
> The ironic part is that you are all about your German bow, and they have maybe ten total staff shooters, and I would imagine they have zero American employees.


Ill shoot whatever I want. Im not a pro and neither are you. 

I shoot an Elite and Mathews and Ok Archer bow. You simple have no qlue what your talking about.

You do like to talk crap.
DB


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## TylerTexas

Jame said:


> It might not have sank in to him the way you wanted it to but I promise you it sank in. Real deep.
> What part do you not get. 66% pay cut is horrible. Like I said before give me 66% of your check. See how you like that. You wont.
> 
> Mathews doesnt have Field Reps and they lead the industry in marketing and 3d prostaff. Sure looks like they do something rt because they sure sell a ton of bows every yr.
> I say get rid of the reps and do it like Mathews and have alot of prostaff and will have more money for advertisement.
> Jame


I see how it is from your side as well. But, I come from a business background, and it's all about the bottom line. 

The other side of the story is that this might not affect you at all if you don't get on the podium. It's a contingency check, not a pay check. best thing you can do is prove yourself.

Judging by your comments, I assume we'll see you in a Mathews uniform next year?


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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> Ill shoot whatever I want. Im not a pro and neither are you.
> 
> I shoot an Elite and Mathews and Ok Archer bow. You simple have no qlue what your talking about.
> 
> You do like to talk crap.
> DB


I know that you're not a pro, but how do you know that I'm not? That's a pretty big assumption to make, cowboy.

You might think I talk crap, but you're the worst offender. Don't throw stones in a glass house, ya hear?


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> I know that you're not a pro, but how do you know that I'm not? That's a pretty big assumption to make, cowboy.
> 
> You might think I talk crap, but you're the worst offender. Don't throw stones in a glass house, ya hear?


Thread not about my bow choice. Grow up and talk about the Hoyt contingency! Ill call it just like I see it. 
If you were a pro you shouldnt hide the fact for sure. Tell us you ranking in 3d archery like it something we should know.

I doubt we ever know who you are! TylerTexas Far as your a I buy ever thing American that a bunch of crap as well in this world economy.
DB


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## salmon killer

The 3D pros have a small advertising circle. Most guys shoot 3D to get a edge on hunting and to have a little fun on a weekend after working all week.The fella who goes hunting supports the bow industry.So the bow manufactures are going to drop all but the very best pro 3D and spot archers. So the Im a pro but not winning only a shoot or two guy or the guy that is in the top 10 who wears a shirt are gone.And bubba who sets in a tree and makes a hunting show to be on the out door channel and shoots a couple bucks with his hoyt.Is getting the money.The high gloss advertising in bow and hunting rags is going to get the rest .It isnt 1995 when 3D was the #1 shooting sport in America.The #1 sport in America as for as archery goes involves every day Joe in his tree stand in October.3D archery is never going to be golf.But it should its may favorite thing to do with a bow.


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## darton3d

I remember years ago, somewhere around the late 90's, Hoyt and PSE dropped most of their professional shooters. Jennings picked up most of them and had a huge pro staff. I don't know if it helped their sales, but where are they now. Hoyt and PSE are still doing fine. Then as Mathews grew they started growing their pro staff, they now have a very large pro staff. Will they pick up anyone else who leaves Hoyt? Who knows, but I doubt it will help their sales. If someone is buying a bow for 3D shooting, and is impressed by what a pro shoots, I think Mathews already won the battle. They already have the best (active) 3D shooter ever! From my viewpoint this won't have any affect on Hoyt's sales, but I shoot a bow from a company that has no pro shooters, so it won't sway my purchasing either way. Arguments can be made for both sides of this issue, but it's like trying to convert a democrat to a republican and vice-verso.


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## Brown Hornet

Daniel Boone said:


> I dont think you understand the concept of pro class. Its the best archers shooting for money. Kinda the same in all sports.
> DB


Could we ask you the same question? Why is archery the only sport that the product company used has to pay all of the money to the Pro? The ASA and IBO don't pay crap..and you can throw the NFAA in there as well. If 3D or target archery in general suffers in any way from a company pulling out of paying high contingency it's not Hoyt's fault. 

Yes Pros shoot for money...but let's be honest here unless you win the event. Your really wasting your time and money because your not making crap. Barely enough to put a dent or pay for your trip. Imagine if a golfer traveled to a Tourny and only got a decent amount of money from Taylor Made if he won and got even less from the Tourny winnings? Wouldn't make sense would it. But it makes sense to some in archery :doh: 

Complain to the ASA about turning down outside sponsorship....complain to them about no exposure...why can I find FITA archery all over the net to watch and it can be watched on ESPN live online....I can watch field archery live online....but not 3D? Hell you can't even watch it delayed....anybody seen any pics lately of an event. And I mean from the actual shoot. Not the Pro AM or the shoot down? 

And no Dan....nobody knows who Dan McCarthy is for the most part. Heck when I shot with him at LAS he was shooting next to a poster of himself and most people still didn't know who he was. 




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## Garceau

threetoe said:


> Corporations scaling back? Sad but true.
> This is just part of the HELL we are going to be seeing over the next 4 years under that POS Obama.
> 
> The DOW is STILL tanking from this election.
> The layoffs and downsizing will be massive and have already begun.
> Next January we'll see the most INSANE tax increase in the history of the World.
> (but it will ONLY affect the workers, The lazy morons among us will not be affected)
> 
> Please see the movie "Idiocracy" to see where America is heading.
> 
> Obama Voters have IQ's < 80.


The dow is 66% higher today than when O took office.....find a different excuse.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## Garceau

Although i didnt vote O....ya also want to chrck the stats of the states that did.

Many manufacturers have made cuts before. Not sure whom was in whitehouse had a big effect

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## Jame

darton3d said:


> I remember years ago, somewhere around the late 90's, Hoyt and PSE dropped most of their professional shooters. Jennings picked up most of them and had a huge pro staff. I don't know if it helped their sales, but where are they now. Hoyt and PSE are still doing fine. Then as Mathews grew they started growing their pro staff, they now have a very large pro staff. Will they pick up anyone else who leaves Hoyt? Who knows, but I doubt it will help their sales. If someone is buying a bow for 3D shooting, and is impressed by what a pro shoots, I think Mathews already won the battle. They already have the best (active) 3D shooter ever! From my viewpoint this won't have any affect on Hoyt's sales, but I shoot a bow from a company that has no pro shooters, so it won't sway my purchasing either way. Arguments can be made for both sides of this issue, but it's like trying to convert a democrat to a republican and vice-verso.



I promise you are wrong there. 3D archers do effect bow sales or atleast in the areas I know of. A buddy of mine who was only a semi pro in 2011 switched from Hoyt to Mathews and once that happened the Hoyt sales went way down. In my area is mostly dominated by Hoyt. I know most every outdoorsman in my area. Within 3 yrs the Hoyt sales will be way down in my area. Not because I want em to but because I will push whatever brand I am sponsored by. My change in Bow manufacturers will effect the Hoyt sales. Thats just how it works. I really think 3d archers effect bow brand sales alot more than most people beleive. Alot more. 
Jame


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## Jame

Brown Hornet said:


> Could we ask you the same question? Why is archery the only sport that the product company used has to pay all of the money to the Pro? The ASA and IBO don't pay crap..and you can throw the NFAA in there as well. If 3D or target archery in general suffers in any way from a company pulling out of paying high contingency it's not Hoyt's fault.
> 
> Yes Pros shoot for money...but let's be honest here unless you win the event. Your really wasting your time and money because your not making crap. Barely enough to put a dent or pay for your trip. Imagine if a golfer traveled to a Tourny and only got a decent amount of money from Taylor Made if he won and got even less from the Tourny winnings? Wouldn't make sense would it. But it makes sense to some in archery :doh:
> 
> Complain to the ASA about turning down outside sponsorship....complain to them about no exposure...why can I find FITA archery all over the net to watch and it can be watched on ESPN live online....I can watch field archery live online....but not 3D? Hell you can't even watch it delayed....anybody seen any pics lately of an event. And I mean from the actual shoot. Not the Pro AM or the shoot down?
> 
> And no Dan....nobody knows who Dan McCarthy is for the most part. Heck when I shot with him at LAS he was shooting next to a poster of himself and most people still didn't know who he was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Instead of putting a noose around the archers necks why dont the bow manufacturers tighten up there money with the organizations. The orgs have no reasons to take more sponsors or even go push for more sponsors when the archery manufacturers are putting alot of money into the tournaments. The organizations are comfortable with what they have and are getting. Tighten up on the money and see what the orgs do. I bet you will see a change.


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## Jame

TylerTexas said:


> I see how it is from your side as well. But, I come from a business background, and it's all about the bottom line.
> 
> The other side of the story is that this might not affect you at all if you don't get on the podium. It's a contingency check, not a pay check. best thing you can do is prove yourself.
> 
> Judging by your comments, I assume we'll see you in a Mathews uniform next year?



You know what assume does for people. 

Im not sure what I will be doing when it comes to archery period. My comments have always been like this about Mathews. I have always said they are an awesome company because of how they support archery in schools and target archery as a whole. They are definitely doing something right. 
I come from a business background also. I own 2 and they are doing quite well. I know its about the bottom line but there were different ways in doing it especially if Hoyt wanted to see a change for the better. Doing it this way is only a negative change in my opinion. 
I will prove myself and I have proven myself.Even having 2 kids that play every sport you can dang near play and owning and working 2 businesses Ive proven I can compete with the best but I only have to prove myself with one being. GOD. 
Bottom line is this sport will never be like golf or other sports because of tournament sponsors. Theres not enough and the organizations arent pushing for bigger sponsors and to much negativity. Everyone is comfortable the way it is. Bow manufacturers shouldnt be the biggest sponsors but the organizations should have to go and talk to major companies for sponsorship. Its sad. Such an awesome sport. I wish and pray to God that it all changes one day for the better.


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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> Thread not about my bow choice. Grow up and talk about the Hoyt contingency! Ill call it just like I see it.
> If you were a pro you shouldnt hide the fact for sure. Tell us you ranking in 3d archery like it something we should know.
> 
> I doubt we ever know who you are! TylerTexas Far as your a I buy ever thing American that a bunch of crap as well in this world economy.
> DB


Ok, we'll talk about the contingency. I'll give a brief synopsis:

- Hoyt cut contingency 
- A few people are mad about it, and think it will hurt bow sales
- The rest of the world doesn't care
- Daniel Boone is un-American

There's the synopsis.

Jame, best of luck to you dude. Break Levi's SOY streak and I'm sure they'll regret it. I'm pulling for you.


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## Daniel Boone

Brown Hornet said:


> Could we ask you the same question? Why is archery the only sport that the product company used has to pay all of the money to the Pro? The ASA and IBO don't pay crap..and you can throw the NFAA in there as well. If 3D or target archery in general suffers in any way from a company pulling out of paying high contingency it's not Hoyt's fault.
> 
> Yes Pros shoot for money...but let's be honest here unless you win the event. Your really wasting your time and money because your not making crap. Barely enough to put a dent or pay for your trip. Imagine if a golfer traveled to a Tourny and only got a decent amount of money from Taylor Made if he won and got even less from the Tourny winnings? Wouldn't make sense would it. But it makes sense to some in archery :doh:
> 
> Complain to the ASA about turning down outside sponsorship....complain to them about no exposure...why can I find FITA archery all over the net to watch and it can be watched on ESPN live online....I can watch field archery live online....but not 3D? Hell you can't even watch it delayed....anybody seen any pics lately of an event. And I mean from the actual shoot. Not the Pro AM or the shoot down?
> 
> And no Dan....nobody knows who Dan McCarthy is for the most part. Heck when I shot with him at LAS he was shooting next to a poster of himself and most people still didn't know who he was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Glad to see you understanding and support cutting pros contingency and money getting cut. Easy to sit back when your never going to hit the pro ranks and speak this way. Especially when you dont shoot 3d circuit.
DB.


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> Ok, we'll talk about the contingency. I'll give a brief synopsis:
> 
> - Hoyt cut contingency
> - A few people are mad about it, and think it will hurt bow sales
> - The rest of the world doesn't care
> - Daniel Boone is un-American
> 
> There's the synopsis.
> 
> Jame, best of luck to you dude. Break Levi's SOY streak and I'm sure they'll regret it. I'm pulling for you.


Dont be afraid to fill out your profile. Nothing to be ashamed of if you cant shoot. Sad to admit your name and your archery skills.

DB


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## Daniel Boone

Jame said:


> I promise you are wrong there. 3D archers do effect bow sales or atleast in the areas I know of. A buddy of mine who was only a semi pro in 2011 switched from Hoyt to Mathews and once that happened the Hoyt sales went way down. In my area is mostly dominated by Hoyt. I know most every outdoorsman in my area. Within 3 yrs the Hoyt sales will be way down in my area. Not because I want em to but because I will push whatever brand I am sponsored by. My change in Bow manufacturers will effect the Hoyt sales. Thats just how it works. I really think 3d archers effect bow brand sales alot more than most people beleive. Alot more.
> Jame


Most will never receive a pro contingency check. So they don't care. Just another reason archery will never grow.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

Hoyt can do what ever they want. 

If Im watching archery, I want to see the best and you wont ever get the best unless manufactures support the best shooters and give back.

Most talking here wont ever come close to a pro contingency check so it easy to sit back and support cutting pros whether it Hoyt or any manufacture.

DB


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## J Whittington

Texas Tyler, your way out of line with your comments regarding D.Boone. 
Your also incorrect about the comment about the comment that "just a few" are upset about the contengency cuts by HOYT. I currently do not compete in the pro class, however IM not happy about it. YOUR comment about Hoyt cutting contengency proves your not a PRO! We are a sub-culture of people that are very close to each other. Most of the folks that attend the ASA/IBO events know,respect, and care about each other. So regardless of what company is making the cuts, no one is happy about it. It affects all of us, regardless of what brand bow, or class one competes in.
To return to the topic of the tread, Why Hoyt's decission made by their top brass is important? There are many reasons why! Is this a sign of whats to come? Will other companies follow their lead? How will this affect attendance in future events? survival existance of archery orgs...etc. 
Readers, do you see my point? 
IF ALL the archery companys are going to stop supporting 3D archery, we need to find a major sponsor, or we are in serious trouble

I love hoyts bows. IMHO based on experience, they are the best built bow on the market. HOWEVER we/ I gotta support the manufactors that truly care about archery instead of the bottom line


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## Daniel Boone

J Whittington said:


> Texas Tyler, your way out of line with your comments regarding D.Boone.
> Your also incorrect about the comment about the comment that "just a few" are upset about the contengency cuts by HOYT. I currently do not compete in the pro class, however IM not happy about it. YOUR comment about Hoyt cutting contengency proves your not a PRO! We are a sub-culture of people that are very close to each other. Most of the folks that attend the ASA/IBO events know,respect, and care about each other. So regardless of what company is making the cuts, no one is happy about it. It affects all of us, regardless of what brand bow, or class one competes in.
> To return to the topic of the tread, Why Hoyt's decission made by their top brass is important? There are many reasons why! Is this a sign of whats to come? Will other companies follow their lead? How will this affect attendance in future events? survival existance of archery orgs...etc.
> Readers, do you see my point?
> IF ALL the archery companys are going to stop supporting 3D archery, we need to find a major sponsor, or we are in serious trouble
> 
> I love hoyts bows. IMHO based on experience, they are the best built bow on the market. HOWEVER we/ I gotta support the manufactors that truly care about archery instead of the bottom line


Understand some here get all happy when pros get cut. Especially the ones who dont shoot the class or 3d. But I would think they dont care if Reo or others get the same cuts in the future as well. Ill support the manufactuers who support pro archers.

Support the best shooters is the way I see it.
DB


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## TylerTexas

You cowboys are out of line assuming that I don't support archery. This is what I do. Y'all think I don't care, or that I think it's a good thing? Nope. But I understand it. Once again, good luck to Jame. 

I stand behind my statements to you, Daniel. You're shooting a German bow, supporting a company that doesn't employ Americans, and that's a slap in the face. I would have expected more from an Okie.


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## zambezi

Jame,I sure wish you would start shooting a PSE.I just ordered a Dominator Max and would sure feel better if you were shooting one.


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## darton3d

Jame said:


> I promise you are wrong there. 3D archers do effect bow sales or atleast in the areas I know of. A buddy of mine who was only a semi pro in 2011 switched from Hoyt to Mathews and once that happened the Hoyt sales went way down. In my area is mostly dominated by Hoyt. I know most every outdoorsman in my area. Within 3 yrs the Hoyt sales will be way down in my area. Not because I want em to but because I will push whatever brand I am sponsored by. My change in Bow manufacturers will effect the Hoyt sales. Thats just how it works. I really think 3d archers effect bow brand sales alot more than most people beleive. Alot more.
> Jame


You will switch manufacturers and push another brand, I understand that. But this only proves the point that every manufacturer's bow is capable of winning, so why do they need to pay anyone to prove it? No offense but in my area almost no one knows who Jame Jamison is or cares what kind of bow he shoots. Heck, at any 3D shoot in this area I would bet that 90% of the shooters don't know who Levi Morgan is, unless they saw his hunting show. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that Hoyt is pulling money out of 3D, and I certainly don't want to see any of the pro's making less money! I truly think that bites! I really enjoy watching you guys shoot, what some can do simply amazes me. All I am saying is that I don't see it having an impact on their sales. Maybe what they are looking for is the people who are truly loyal to their company and believe in the product and not just looking for a paycheck. One thing that I really don't like is how Hoyt put out their new catalog with everyone's picture in it before they made this announcement. How many of those people won't even be shooting a Hoyt in 2013. Seems like false advertising to me, and unethical. I am sorry if this impacts your income, I would not wish that on anyone! I'm not trying to argue with you, just discussing a topic and giving an opinion from my perspective. As DB always says, that's what the forum is for.


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> You cowboys are out of line assuming that I don't support archery. This is what I do. Y'all think I don't care, or that I think it's a good thing? Nope. But I understand it. Once again, good luck to Jame.
> 
> I stand behind my statements to you, Daniel. You're shooting a German bow, supporting a company that doesn't employ Americans, and that's a slap in the face. I would have expected more from an Okie.


I drive a Nissan as well for many years. It doesnt make one un american. OK bow has american limbs, strings and Martin cam system. Because I think its a well engineered bow is why I shoot one. You dont buy everthing american! Dont be a hypercrite.

If your such a supporter put your name in profile. I have read your post here. What you hiding from?

Maybe ask the wounded warrior or the soldier I took hunting last weekend. Your sure judgemental for sure.
DB


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## Jame

Thanks. Ill probably have to break both of his arms first.






TylerTexas said:


> Ok, we'll talk about the contingency. I'll give a brief synopsis:
> 
> - Hoyt cut contingency
> - A few people are mad about it, and think it will hurt bow sales
> - The rest of the world doesn't care
> - Daniel Boone is un-American
> 
> There's the synopsis.
> 
> Jame, best of luck to you dude. Break Levi's SOY streak and I'm sure they'll regret it. I'm pulling for you.


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## Jame

[

You r correct. I dont affect sales in your area and most people dont know me there in your area but they do in mine. 
Most everyone involved in 3d in tx and ok knows who i am . Tell me that wont affect there sales especially in areas close to me.


QUOTE=darton3d;1065792516]You will switch manufacturers and push another brand, I understand that. But this only proves the point that every manufacturer's bow is capable of winning, so why do they need to pay anyone to prove it? No offense but in my area almost no one knows who Jame Jamison is or cares what kind of bow he shoots. Heck, at any 3D shoot in this area I would bet that 90% of the shooters don't know who Levi Morgan is, unless they saw his hunting show. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that Hoyt is pulling money out of 3D, and I certainly don't want to see any of the pro's making less money! I truly think that bites! I really enjoy watching you guys shoot, what some can do simply amazes me. All I am saying is that I don't see it having an impact on their sales. Maybe what they are looking for is the people who are truly loyal to their company and believe in the product and not just looking for a paycheck. One thing that I really don't like is how Hoyt put out their new catalog with everyone's picture in it before they made this announcement. How many of those people won't even be shooting a Hoyt in 2013. Seems like false advertising to me, and unethical. I am sorry if this impacts your income, I would not wish that on anyone! I'm not trying to argue with you, just discussing a topic and giving an opinion from my perspective. As DB always says, that's what the forum is for.[/QUOTE]


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## 3rdplace

I remember back in 1998 when I started shooting ASA Bear was the big gun on the scene. They had this fellow named Jeff Hopkins and another named Johnny Heath and I believe a Caudle or two. Well when they hired a new marketing guy who was not familiar with the business he decided to can the shooter program since it couldn't possibly help sales. They all migrated over to this newer company on the scene ......Mathews. Next thing we know Bear is about to go into bankruptcy and Mathews is thriving. Shooter programs that pay contingency matter.

Hoyt is going through some changes obviously. They did it to their dealers last year. I hope they get things worked out but I believe they are on the wrong track.


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## Garceau

Seems longer ago than 98 for bear....

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## carlosii

Bubba Dean said:


> Why can't the Pros just shooting for entry fee money like the amateurs do? Why do manufacturers have to supplement the Pros?


because they have wheels on their bows? :icon_1_lol:


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## carlosii

"Complain to the ASA about turning down outside sponsorship."

( as quoted from a post by Brown Hornet...messed up posting the quote.)

a little more inside info please...what outside sponsorship did Mike & Co. turn down? this is the first i've heard of that...inquiring minds want to know....and so do i.


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## T Miller73

I'm with you guys we do need outside money in 3D archery , but I don't think we will ever see it . My reason for feeling this way may be way off but the major Orgs. feel like if they bring in big time money they will lose control over the way things are done. Right now they don't have to answer to anybody they can do what they want when they want. When you bring in big sponsors that's not always the case . They like being in total control and don't want to give that up . This may be wrong but its just my opinion.


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## SonnyThomas

Un-American? Does that mean we have to burn all of our camo clothing? How about our arrows? I mean, Bangladesh, China, Mexico, Korea and a couple other foreign places. Should we boycott all the bow companies (camo dip bows) because they're supporting companies that have archery goods made out of the United States?


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## Daniel Boone

3rdplace said:


> I remember back in 1998 when I started shooting ASA Bear was the big gun on the scene. They had this fellow named Jeff Hopkins and another named Johnny Heath and I believe a Caudle or two. Well when they hired a new marketing guy who was not familiar with the business he decided to can the shooter program since it couldn't possibly help sales. They all migrated over to this newer company on the scene ......Mathews. Next thing we know Bear is about to go into bankruptcy and Mathews is thriving. Shooter programs that pay contingency matter.
> 
> Hoyt is going through some changes obviously. They did it to their dealers last year. I hope they get things worked out but I believe they are on the wrong track.


There some young good talent hitting the pros today. Guys that are going to do well in target as well. What kind of message does this send to them? Marlow already signed with Mathews. Micheal (Frugle) dont think I got the named spelled right, Hoyt youth and Atkins who Im sure will stay Mathews. Message is loud and clear! No pro going to shoot a bow that wont support them.

DB


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## 3rdplace

Dan , Matt Eperly who is moving up switched from Hoyt to Mathews as well.


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## Fury90flier

I'm going to stop shooting your well made, fast accurate bows because I don't like your business decision...Yea, you'll show them.


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## frog gigger

Daniel Boone said:


> Understand some here get all happy when pros get cut. Especially the ones who dont shoot the class or 3d. But I would think they dont care if Reo or others get the same cuts in the future as well. Ill support the manufactuers who support pro archers.
> 
> Support the best shooters is the way I see it.
> DB


I get where you're coming from DB, but without the Joe's, you'll have neither manufacturers or pros.


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## Daniel Boone

frog gigger said:


> I get where you're coming from DB, but without the Joe's, you'll have neither manufacturers or pros.


This is about contengency for pros. Amatuers are just that and that includes me. I cant start to shoot like a pro. 

I hope other manufactuers understand the value of supporting the best of the best in archery.
DB


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## treeman65

Jame said:


> Instead of putting a noose around the archers necks why dont the bow manufacturers tighten up there money with the organizations. The orgs have no reasons to take more sponsors or even go push for more sponsors when the archery manufacturers are putting alot of money into the tournaments. The organizations are comfortable with what they have and are getting. Tighten up on the money and see what the orgs do. I bet you will see a change.


yeah the orgs are comfortable with what THEY are getting but they also dont give a crap what the archer is getting..


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## bhtr3d

I look at some other sports contingency, and you would be amazed that the archery pays a lot more then some of these must larger used sports....For example. Moto X the Pro riders....at their BIG events.... will pay only $1000. and for the world events they have its 10,000. (I used yamaha) program to use this. 


I know its not apples to apples.... but just an example.


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## treeman65

bhtr3d said:


> I looked a lot of other sports and the contingency they have.... The money that is paid by the archery companies is a LOT higher then some of the other sports, and these sports have more well events and competitors. for example moto cross. Just something to think about.


your statement is wrong as far as moto cross First off bikes given to team riders(pros) is alot more in value plus those riders get paid for racing then winning is a bonus with extra money.
these organization need to start thinking about the sport and its future.


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## bhtr3d

treeman65 said:


> your statement is wrong as far as moto cross First off bikes given to team riders(pros) is alot more in value plus those riders get paid for racing then winning is a bonus with extra money.
> these organization need to start thinking about the sport and its future.


Here is Yahama's : http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/racing/2013_YZWR_Contingency.aspx


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## treeman65

bhtr3d said:


> Here is Yahama's : http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/racing/2013_YZWR_Contingency.aspx


do the math k (pro) pays out 35,500 a race look like a big difference plus price of a moto cross equipment is alot higher than a archery equipment then you add in the salary that a pro ride gets that adds up to a big difference


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## bhtr3d

treeman65 said:


> do the math k (pro) pays out 35,500 a race look like a big difference plus price of a moto cross equipment is alot higher than a archery equipment then you add in the salary that a pro ride gets that adds up to a big difference


I gave an example. Would you like me to give you the one I found for a another shooting sport....like I found from Safariland ?


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## SonnyThomas

You realize motor cycle racing has different events? Those screaming on the flat tracks and at the Daytona 200 ain't there for their health. ??? When Kenny Roberts won his first #1 plate way back in the 70s he knocked down some $180,000, $90,000 being winnings and Yamaha matching his winnings.
One thing about flat tracking and Daytona, all can be seen, the racing duels and who is in last place and those awesome front runners and everybody in between.


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## bhtr3d

I quits


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## J Whittington

treeman65 said:


> yeah the orgs are comfortable with what THEY are getting but they also dont give a crap what the archer is getting..


there is a lot of truth to this comment

DB fryfoogle is his name, but he prefers to be called " FRODO" Remember the hobbit in the lord of the rings. I gave him that name because he was just that, Lord of the rings. Really great shot and fun person. so is jacob marlow both are great kids


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## Supermag1

It sure stinks for the shooters but in the big picture this may be what Hoyt has to do to keep from firing their employees back in Utah. In the current economy, it seems like almost every company is having to make some hard decisions in regards to whom it can pay. If this decision lets a few more of Hoyt's employees keep their jobs and continue to put food on the table for their families, it's a sound decison in my eyes.


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## carlosii

treeman65 said:


> yeah the orgs are comfortable with what THEY are getting but they also dont give a crap what the archer is getting..


ASA 

i'm not sure i agree with that. Mike & Co. know they need the shooters to make ASA work so they work with manufacturers to promote contingency dollars for all classes, e.g., payments from arrow companies, Bohning, and others. they promote Limbsaver to sponsor the SIMS range also as an example. i think the folks as ASA know which side their bread is buttered and will continue to support the archers.

just mho


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## Jay-J

carlosii said:


> "Complain to the ASA about turning down outside sponsorship."
> 
> ( as quoted from a post by Brown Hornet...messed up posting the quote.)
> 
> a little more inside info please...what outside sponsorship did Mike & Co. turn down? this is the first i've heard of that...inquiring minds want to know....and so do i.


Mike said "No" to bringing a beer company onboard as a sponsor. I guess I can see where he's coming from because if Miller Lite was a major sponsor of a tournament/association then they would expect their beer served at the tournaments and I guess we can all see how that could cause problems. That being said I do believe the associations need to be more proactive in bringing in outside sponsor money! I know they will never be the same but look at golf for example. A major PGA sponsor is Buick. What in the world does Buick have to do with golf!? Absolutely nothing! What does Charles Schwabb have to do with golf!? Absolutely nothing! These are companies that appeal to and are used by the the majority of the demographic that watches/plays/supports golf so they are in there with their sponsorships! Archery HAS to get on board with this kind of outside sponsorship money! They have to look beyond the archery related manufactures to bank roll the whole deal. Go out and try to get ATV or tractor or truck companies to come on board!.....But back to the subject at hand. That does stink with the whole timing and everything of what Hoyt did. I feel for the pros like Jame and the others. I may be wrong but I just dont see it getting any better and possibly even more manufactures following suite if outside money isnt brought in.


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## treeman65

carlosii said:


> ASA
> 
> i'm not sure i agree with that. Mike & Co. know they need the shooters to make ASA work so they work with manufacturers to promote contingency dollars for all classes, e.g., payments from arrow companies, Bohning, and others. they promote Limbsaver to sponsor the SIMS range also as an example. i think the folks as ASA know which side their bread is buttered and will continue to support the archers.
> 
> just mho


disagree all you want but let me ask you how many director meetings have you ever benn in to see what goes on?


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## iwannahoyt93

Heres a shot out of a cannon. As far as money from all bow manufacturers people like levi who have a great influence on the target trail and have a hunting tv show should show more of the tournament side. He is just one who has the oppertunity to really grow the sport of archery if he would do a little more to show the tourny side on his hunting show. He has two differnet hunting shows that are well watched and he could expose the sport and when the popularity of tourny archery goes up the manufacturers can start pay outs again and maybe even more bigger payouts. Thats what this sport of archery needs. No one can help us, we got to help ourselfs and introduce the sport to more people and get more people in to it so it can trully grow


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## bow-legged

You don't grow the sport at the national level, It starts at the local level. We need more clubs and ranges to get people started and then they get hooked and go to national level shoots as amatuers. Make it fun and a chance for amatuers to win some decent money and the sport will have a stronger foundation. 

The price of targets and cores is the death of 3d! We need to be to focusing on that problem and not what a couple of pros get for winning. 

25 RHINEHART TARGETS CLUB PRICE $11330.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3D is doomed


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## J Whittington

At the hoyt dinner in La last spring, hoyt big wheels bragged about how great sales were! We all know their bows are not cheap! So lack of sales excuse will not float


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## frog gigger

J Whittington said:


> At the hoyt dinner in La last spring, hoyt big wheels bragged about how great sales were! We all know their bows are not cheap! So lack of sales excuse will not float


Sales are one thing, profit is another. Supermaq1 seems to say it best. Look around people. Corporations are laying off and cutting hours all across the US. Besides that, this is a game/sport on a very small scale. One should consider themselves blessed to be able to attend these events rather than upset for not receiving something that they think they're entitled to. No win situation for everybody, but that's life and times are changing.


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## SonnyThomas

bow-legged said:


> You don't grow the sport at the national level, It starts at the local level. We need more clubs and ranges to get people started and then they get hooked and go to national level shoots as amatuers. Make it fun and a chance for amatuers to win some decent money and the sport will have a stronger foundation.
> 
> The price of targets and cores is the death of 3d! We need to be to focusing on that problem and not what a couple of pros get for winning.
> 
> 25 RHINEHART TARGETS CLUB PRICE $11330.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3D is doomed




I would agree on the first part. As for buyin targets, I don't. What, a scare tatic? A club buys what their treasury can afford. Took us a while, but we have a bunch.


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## Daniel Boone

frog gigger said:


> Sales are one thing, profit is another. Supermaq1 seems to say it best. Look around people. Corporations are laying off and cutting hours all across the US. Besides that, this is a game/sport on a very small scale. One should consider themselves blessed to be able to attend these events rather than upset for not receiving something that they think they're entitled to. No win situation for everybody, but that's life and times are changing.


 Entitled! Pro work there butts off to be the best and win and represent Hoyt which in return means profits for them. Those like you that never will dedicate enough of there life or time to be one of the best will never understand. No win but they can move onto a manufactuer who will appreceite there efforts and is willing to give back to the best of the best and reap the rewards of the hard work these pros put in to win.
DB


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## Jame

bow-legged said:


> You don't grow the sport at the national level, It starts at the local level. We need more clubs and ranges to get people started and then they get hooked and go to national level shoots as amatuers. Make it fun and a chance for amatuers to win some decent money and the sport will have a stronger foundation.
> 
> The price of targets and cores is the death of 3d! We need to be to focusing on that problem and not what a couple of pros get for winning.
> 
> 25 RHINEHART TARGETS CLUB PRICE $11330.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3D is doomed


Become a pro and i bet your opinion changes. This is a main source of income for some pros.


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## huntelk

Last week I was in one of the top archery shops in the Northwest U.S. when the Hoyt rep brought in the 2013 line. I was there in the range 4-5 hours setting up a new bow for the wife and shooting a little. In that time period there were more people that came and talked with one of the local "pro's" that shoots there almost nightly. It just so happens that I was in the same shop one year ago when the rep brought the 2012's.

The kicker is that there was not even one 2012 Hoyt bow being shot in the range and not a single person I talked to spoke of ordering a 2013. There were however five 2012 PSE target bows, one Martin and one new OK bow that night. Mind you that the primary salesman for the shop HATES PSE and makes no secret about it. This one "Pro" is unquestionably responsible for 95% of the PSE sales in that area. These new PSE's are in the hands of former Hoyt shooters. I heard from the last Martin holdout today that he is ordering a Dominator now too. 

Unfortunately it goes beyond Hoyt cutting contingency money. I have listened in many conversations to Hoyt target archers from top level down to shop shooters that have mentioned how poorly they have been treated and how poor of service they have received. This goes from the Kansas City area to northwest through Montana and southwest through New Mexico. Hoyt makes a great product, but they are burning bridges faster than Martin did.

Kudos to PSE and Mathew's for treating target archers like we matter!


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## Fury90flier

bow-legged said:


> ...The price of targets and cores is the death of 3d! We need to be to focusing on that problem and not what a couple of pros get for winning.
> 
> 25 RHINEHART TARGETS CLUB PRICE $11330.00 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3D is doomed



Sounds like you guys need to learn how to shape blue foam and make fiberglass molds. Once your molds are made you're only looking at the cost of expanding urathane foam...about 250 bucks for 10 cub ft.


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## NYS REP

Maybe its been said, I think only one Hoyt Pro has posted. Heres a thought, just maybe the Hoyt Pros under contract have seen a increase in there salaries and have agreed to less prize money? Outside sponsorship in vital to making the sport grow, having up to 30 or more World Champions won't interest a major sponsor. Cut the number of classes and create a true World/Classic Champion then pursue a major sponsor. Another point to ponder, some years ago Nathan Brooks penned an article which appeared in Tournament Archer magazine about the future of 3D archery. This was an outstanding and outspoken article from one within the sport. The light can be seen at the end of the tunnel folks. The question is are we going to continue to complain or promote from within. Their are folks out there which have approached organizations to promote the 3D tournaments. Time will tell if it helps but it did start last year, might be too late but it was also mentioned years ago by others only to fall on deaf ears from an organization. If Hoyt is cutting prize money only a matter of time before all manufactures do the same.


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## carlosii

treeman65 said:


> disagree all you want but let me ask you how many director meetings have you ever benn in to see what goes on?


how many director meetings have i been to?....let me think, now....i guess up to now, none. as i noted, it is just my opinion, and that with a couple of bucks'll get me a coffee at the local shop.

just wondering, are you a director or have you been to the meetings? just wondering.

(see how nice i am...didn't say a thing about "benn". :shade: funnin' with ya.)


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## treeman65

carlosii said:


> how many director meetings have i been to?....let me think, now....i guess up to now, none. as i noted, it is just my opinion, and that with a couple of bucks'll get me a coffee at the local shop.
> 
> just wondering, are you a director or have you been to the meetings? just wondering.
> 
> (see how nice i am...didn't say a thing about "benn". :shade: funnin' with ya.)


yes up to 2 yrs ago i was and let me tell you not once has it ever been mentioned in the meeting to get better payouts.


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## Labs

and to the kids...NASP is a genious idea that has paid off big time for Mathews. Bash them all you want but they are very generous on many levels. Research their Mission bows and see where the profits go...same with the Lost Camo profits. 

Bottom line though, IMHO, is they have earned as many loyal customers through NASP and Genisis bows than the contingentcy pay out's of most other bow companies...



Daniel Boone said:


> Might take notice how many Mathews hunting 3d pros kill hunting. Mathews is ever where in hunting shows.
> Mathews is leading in advertising and supporting archery pros. Great to see a manufactuer who gives back in both worlds.
> DB


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## SonnyThomas

I must have missed it or can't find it. Said in the ASA forums is, it is written that Hoyt has dropped the contengency stuff. Link?


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## Rolo

okarcher said:


> But your still taking money out of archery and it can't be good for any of us.


Seen this a couple of times...can anyone confirm that actual money is being taken OUT of archery? Not just re-allocated? There's a big difference.

I certainly understand how dropping contingency money can cause issues, but it is a contingency anyway...it's was never guaranteed. Big difference between contingency money and contract money. Not sur how anyone could base their yearly income on a contingency anyway...foolish planning IMO.

I also agree/disagree on the affect that 'pro' sponsorship has on bow sales...it's completely dependant on the area. Big name pro in area X certainly influences bow sales in area X. Area Y llkely has no idea, or care who the Pro is from area X, they are impacted by the 'pro' (whether big name or local) from area Y though. In a 100 mile area in Wyoming, there is a line of demarcation between 2 different bow conmpanies sales. One area sells a ton of brand A. The other sells a ton of brand B. The reason is what the local 'pros' are shooting...and maybe to some degree what the guys on tv are shooting. It is minimally, at best, impacted by what Reo, or Levi, or Jame, or any other pro shoots.

It simply cuts both ways. When the local pro switches, many in the local area will switch. When the big name tournament pro switches, many in that area will switch, bit not oin all the other areas...simple geographics and demographics. (with some ouitliers thrown in).

So, if the money is being re-allocated, it may actually increase sales. MAy not. Sucks for those seeking a living on a contingency, but as has been said, its a ROI analysis.


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## carlosii

treeman65 said:


> yes up to 2 yrs ago i was and let me tell you not once has it ever been mentioned in the meeting to get better payouts.


didn't any of the other directors ever bring the subject up? i don't know how the ASA directors meetings are run, so i'm really looking for info here.


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## bhtr3d

Rolo said:


> Seen this a couple of times...can anyone confirm that actual money is being taken OUT of archery? Not just re-allocated? There's a big difference.
> 
> I certainly understand how dropping contingency money can cause issues, but it is a contingency anyway...it's was never guaranteed. Big difference between contingency money and contract money. Not sur how anyone could base their yearly income on a contingency anyway...foolish planning IMO.
> 
> I also agree/disagree on the affect that 'pro' sponsorship has on bow sales...it's completely dependant on the area. Big name pro in area X certainly influences bow sales in area X. Area Y llkely has no idea, or care who the Pro is from area X, they are impacted by the 'pro' (whether big name or local) from area Y though. In a 100 mile area in Wyoming, there is a line of demarcation between 2 different bow conmpanies sales. One area sells a ton of brand A. The other sells a ton of brand B. The reason is what the local 'pros' are shooting...and maybe to some degree what the guys on tv are shooting. It is minimally, at best, impacted by what Reo, or Levi, or Jame, or any other pro shoots.
> 
> It simply cuts both ways. When the local pro switches, many in the local area will switch. When the big name tournament pro switches, many in that area will switch, bit not oin all the other areas...simple geographics and demographics. (with some ouitliers thrown in).
> 
> So, if the money is being re-allocated, it may actually increase sales. MAy not. Sucks for those seeking a living on a contingency, but as has been said, its a ROI analysis.


Very well said.


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## frog gigger

Daniel Boone said:


> Entitled! Pro work there butts off to be the best and win and represent Hoyt which in return means profits for them. Those like you that never will dedicate enough of there life or time to be one of the best will never understand. No win but they can move onto a manufactuer who will appreceite there efforts and is willing to give back to the best of the best and reap the rewards of the hard work these pros put in to win.
> DB


 You're right DB. What it would take from my life to reach that point isn't worth it to me, but I do understand the concept. 22 years of supporting IBO/ASA has been enough as it is. I guess an archery union would be the answer. That way the employees can tell the boss what to do, and we can start paying 2k for a bow. Just remember that it's those that have probably never heard of ASA/IBO that make this wheel turn, not the 1,500/2k that that show up 7 times a year.


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## okarcher

Thats all fine with the re-allocated stuff, but you don't if it is or was re-allocated. That is just an assumtion what we do know for sure is they cut payouts to their shooters. We can re-word things to make everything seem better but unless you have some facts its just assumtions. Real bottomline is Hoyt cut payouts will it hurt them no one knows I guess we can just wait and see. We know as most feel if it doesn't affect them then who cares, we get that or if your a big hoyt supporter then your going to back them. I just hate the fact that if other companies follow suite that it could hurt the sport that i enjoy and back.


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## J Whittington

word from cellular grapvine,received from a 100% reliable source that mathews have cut womens contengency and eliminated some performance bonuses

not good


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## Rolo

okarcher said:


> Thats all fine with the re-allocated stuff, but you don't if it is or was re-allocated. That is just an assumtion what we do know for sure is they cut payouts to their shooters. We can re-word things to make everything seem better but unless you have some facts its just assumtions. Real bottomline is Hoyt cut payouts will it hurt them no one knows I guess we can just wait and see. We know as most feel if it doesn't affect them then who cares, we get that or if your a big hoyt supporter then your going to back them. I just hate the fact that if other companies follow suite that it could hurt the sport that i enjoy and back.


That's why I put these '?' at the end. My ? was based on your and othere's statements that the money was "being taken out of archery". Which is an assumption, and not a fact. I simply asked whether it was a fact or not.

But from a general standpoint, no manufacturer should be required to support a sport because some people really enjoy it. They should support a sport if it is good for business, and makes sense based on the ROI and the times...and the times, well, they don't exactly call for a lot of loose and free spending at the moment.


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## Daniel Boone

Bottom line archers depend on contengcy. Its earned and not something given.

Contengency certainly helps PSE/ Mathews and it archers. Those that say others will follow, I doubt anyone follows Hoyt lead. Good manufactuers know there pro archers cant survive without it. Hoyt just kicked some die hard Hoyt shooters to the curb. Doesn't say allot about how they feel about there Hoyt shooters in 3d. Hoyt pros will have to find another manufactuer willing to support them in 3d and they will.

DB


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## bhtr3d

bottom line of any of this....is very simple.....When they bean counters come to those that control the purse strings...... And they look at their bottom line......and they ask this simple question. WHAT can you DO for me? Does this the money way to the means ? It's all about business. Sorry, but that is how it goes. Maybe one day we can get a big car/auto We, had KIA as a major sponsor for Archery World Cup.


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## 3rdplace

J Whittington said:


> word from cellular grapvine,received from a 100% reliable source that mathews have cut womens contengency and eliminated some performance bonuses
> 
> not good


 Jerry I just looked at the 2013 Contingency from Mathews and it looks like it went up for the Women Pros based on the ASA Classic payouts.


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## J Whittington

fellow old semi pro, i hope your correct and im dead wrong! 

we b the old farts will u send it to me


and i almost forgot HAPPY TURKEY DAY JACOB YOUR MY IDOL!


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## bhtr3d

I googled something.....The cut in contingency isn't something new: Here is a post from 2008: 
12-07-2008, 08:53 PM #1 
Daniel Boone 
Senior Member




Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,934 
Pro contingency money dropped this year. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im told all the top three dropped there contingency money for pros. This wont help archers with continuing cost of travel. Bad economy should not help attendance this year.

Heard most dropped there number of staff shooters as well.

If your in archery for the big bucks this aint the sport for you.


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## Rolo

Hitting the Powerball #s is a contingency too...but I ain't basing my income on it. Like it or not, the only way to ever realize a contingency payment is to win. Based on current trends, there are very few people who should be relying on contigency payments as their primary source of income for a year. To do so is a fool's errand...


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## Jame

It sure makes it worth your while to work harder to win when you have a chance at a bigger contingency pay day. Theres a huge incentive to work harder when theres good money on the line. 

It has to be worth a professional archers time especially when hes taking away from his work and family time. 10 grand is a great reason to put the hard work, time and effort into practice. Winning 10k can surely change a persons life. Trust me. It did mine. 

Rolo you may see it as dumb but it is some professionals major source of income. Not mine but it sure does help if you are lucky enough to win. I guarantee you that there are a few guys who mainly shoot for a living or make a living in the archery/hunting industry some where. 
Jame


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## Rolo

Jame said:


> It sure makes it worth your while to work harder to win when you have a chance at a bigger contingency pay day. Theres a huge incentive to work harder when theres good money on the line.
> 
> It has to be worth a professional archers time especially when hes taking away from his work and family time. 10 grand is a great reason to put the hard work, time and effort into practice. Winning 10k can surely change a persons life. Trust me. It did mine.
> 
> Rolo you may see it as dumb but it is some professionals major source of income. Not mine but it sure does help if you are lucky enough to win. I guarantee you that there are a few guys who mainly shoot for a living or make a living in the archery/hunting industry some where.
> Jame


Not disparraging any of that...but how many shoots per year pay $10k to win? Its gotta be factored into the time and costs, along with the odds. Personally, I wouldn't put the time in with those odds at the expense of my family...that's me. I know there are a few, a very few that make their living shooting bows...but it ain't based on contingency...it's based on contract. The reality is that anybody good enough, whether manufactrurer sponsored or not, can win the contingency. Those that are sponsored get perks, some more than others, that the non-sponsored guys don't.


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## Jame

Rolo said:


> Not disparraging any of that...but how many shoots per year pay $10k to win? Its gotta be factored into the time and costs, along with the odds. Personally, I wouldn't put the time in with those odds at the expense of my family...that's me. I know there are a few, a very few that make their living shooting bows...but it ain't based on contingency...it's based on contract. The reality is that anybody good enough, whether manufactrurer sponsored or not, can win the contingency. Those that are sponsored get perks, some more than others, that the non-sponsored guys don't.


There are around 15 that pay 10k or more.
I do agree with you. 

My biggest gripe about all this is it seems like alot of people dont care that contingency has gotten dropped. With it being dropped just leads to other things that will happen soon. Archery is an awesome family oriented sport that can supplement an income but target archery is just gonna die off if the money stops. 
I hope and pray that one day it will be atleast as big as it used to be if not bigger. I believe our kids deserve that and if things dont change it will never happen. Hopefully some big time sponsors will step in one day and even out the playing field for the everyone. Bow manufactures, pros and non pros and the orgs. 
Hopefully one day.
jame


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## bluerocker

I have a question, there was thread on here a few week ago I think it was started by Mr. Whittington about Mathews cutting some of there shooters. Has anyone heard anymore about this? Is it really going to happen? I hate to see money taken out of archery, but If somthing doesn't change in the next few years 3d archery is doomed.. I think the Ibo & asa needs to get out and find some sponsors. There just setting on there arse's watching it get flushed down the drain.


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## tmorelli

bluerocker said:


> I have a question, there was thread on here a few week ago I think it was started by Mr. Whittington about Mathews cutting some of there shooters. Has anyone heard anymore about this? Is it really going to happen? I hate to see money taken out of archery, but If somthing doesn't change in the next few years 3d archery is doomed.. I think the Ibo & asa needs to get out and find some sponsors. There just setting on there arse's watching it get flushed down the drain.


Nope. That thread was about Hoyt. A bunch of people assumed it was Mathews.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Daniel Boone

Mathews says catch us if you can. Seems Hoyt saying we cant even match Mathews contingency!

Maybe the Hoyt pros were winning to often!:mg:

Now my next question will Hoyt be dropping there contingencys for indoor and target archery?

I sure hope PSE keeps supporting the 3d pros.


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## J Whittington

im whittington i never named a company you and others "assumed'

IF I CORRECTLY READ the hoyt check for winning face 2 face last weekend (?) it was for 2000. not sure if it was in euros or us funds...imho, thats not fair to reo. i bet the trip cost him that




bluerocker said:


> I have a question, there was thread on here a few week ago I think it was started by Mr. Whittington about Mathews cutting some of there shooters. Has anyone heard anymore about this? Is it really going to happen? I hate to see money taken out of archery, but If somthing doesn't change in the next few years 3d archery is doomed.. I think the Ibo & asa needs to get out and find some sponsors. There just setting on there arse's watching it get flushed down the drain.


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## treeman65

I hate that the money is going away and feel it is going to destroy 3d. Then on the other hand I feel it made a lot of archers greedyand dishonest with themselves. Here is why someone thinks they are good enough and moves up to one of the pro classes and just does not get it done so they move back then you here comments like I'm sure will follow this post entry fee is too high or can't afford it or why don't you pay it for me. The companies that payout should have it where if you move to a higher class and move back that you don't qualify for money
I also have see a woman pro go from a great year to struggling the next but she stuck it out and has great respect from me


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## cenochs

You want a big sponsor I did some research awhile back and Bass Pro shop would work perfect! They definitely have the money you can see that from their financials and they have store locations in great areas of the country for us to shoot at! I don't like the cuts to contingency but until the 2 3D organizations make a standard set of rules and create a Pro Class that is more than pay your money and shoot type of class manufacturers and sponsors are not going to get involved. The Pro Class needs to have requirements to enter and stay and if you can't meet these you are moved out. Contingency is a great extra bonus for 3D archery Pros but the actual winnings at these tournaments should be enough for many Pros to make a living.


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## Daniel Boone

Talked to several Hoyt 3d pros. There very dissapointed in Hoyt. Kinda tough when you pull the rug out from under them.

I personal think they will see results quickly and return the contengency. 3d in my state is the top game in town. Actually it the main archery game in allot of states. Maybe this is Hoyt way to try and hurt 3d archery for whatever reason. 


Time will tell!

Who knows maybe there trying to cut there pro staff, this is a sure fire way.

Picture going to look pretty sad when the 2nd place Mahews pro wins more than the first place Hoyt shooter. Trying to get this picture out of my mind.

DB
DB


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## cenochs

Easton-Bell Sports INC. owns Hoyt I would say the decision to cut contingency goes deeper than Hoyt just do some research on Easton-Bell Sports INC and you will see just how big this company is and you can see the companies financials. 

http://www.eastonbellsports.com/wp-content/uploads/Easton-Bell-Sports-Inc-10-Q-Q1_2012.pdf


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## Daniel Boone

cenochs said:


> Easton-Bell Sports INC. owns Hoyt I would say the decision to cut contingency goes deeper than Hoyt just do some research on Easton-Bell Sports INC and you will see just how big this company is and you can see the companies financials.
> 
> http://www.eastonbellsports.com/wp-content/uploads/Easton-Bell-Sports-Inc-10-Q-Q1_2012.pdf


Why would this make a difference? Hoyt archery 3d staff archers are the one effected. Still doesn't help them one bit who makes the calls. Not good for archery and the sport of 3D! Will they cut the target archery contengencys as well?
DB


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## SonnyThomas

Daniel Boone said:


> 3d in my state is the top game in town. Actually it the main archery game in allot of states. Maybe this is Hoyt way to try and hurt 3d archery for whatever reason.
> DB
> DB


DB, I agree 3D is the game in many states. Here, in Illinois, we don't have a huge following in NFAA, IBO or ASA sanctioned events. IAA has only their Rendezvous for 3D. Our ASA State Championship came up some, but still short of 100, 97 if I remember right. But for 3D in general, there's shoot somewhere every weekend throughtout 3D season. Got your running shoes on and you can hit two and 3 3Ds on some weekends.
Of course, bowhunters make up the largest part of contestants.

Outside sponsors? Are they there? Have potential sponsors come forth and we don't know about it? If there is and not happening, what "wrench" got in the works?


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## JimmyP

3 d shooters are bow hunters there are about on average 1200 at each turn. Most are sponserd by shops or companies so when they start changing to one company that don't pay to one that does do you thick they will hunt with a dif.bow come hunting season.for example I am a shop shooter for a Mathews shop.so I get my bows at cost or less.so lets say I go to all the local shoots and place in the top .in most of them.so the average hunter that don't shoot ibo,or Asa starts to think our advise is worth something .so which bow will we push.hoyt or Mathews since we chose a bow company that pays cont.alot of people locally ask our opinion a lot.i have guys that don't but a bow but maybe every 8 years but they will all and ask what I think before they buy a bow.so when a company drops cont.it will effect them it may just take awhile .


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## Rolo

J Whittington said:


> IF I CORRECTLY READ the hoyt check for winning face 2 face last weekend (?) it was for 2000. not sure if it was in euros or us funds...imho, thats not fair to reo. i bet the trip cost him that


Contract v. Contingency. If you really think the only support Reo got from Hoyt for the F2F was his cointingency check, you really don't understand...the contingency was just a little icing...


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## >--gt-->

> Easton-Bell Sports INC. owns Hoyt I would say the decision to cut contingency goes deeper than Hoyt just do some research on Easton-Bell Sports INC and you will see just how big this company is and you can see the companies financials.
> 
> http://www.eastonbellsports.com/wp-c...-Q-Q1_2012.pdf


Just to set the record straight- There is no connection between Easton-Bell and Hoyt. Hoyt is a family owned company, not a public company.


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## Rolo

cenochs said:


> Easton-Bell Sports INC. owns Hoyt I would say the decision to cut contingency goes deeper than Hoyt just do some research on Easton-Bell Sports INC and you will see just how big this company is and you can see the companies financials.
> 
> http://www.eastonbellsports.com/wp-content/uploads/Easton-Bell-Sports-Inc-10-Q-Q1_2012.pdf


Wrong Easton...


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## N7709K

F2F is a closed competition, there are strict requirements to be eligible. A large portion of the worlds best were present, but some were not; 2k contingency for F2F is a really nice amount (pretty much would have covered the trip) and its not the only contingency that reo walked away with. That 2k comes nowhere near what he made through his staff contracts. Reo is one of a handful of archers in history that can figure a percentage of contingency into their yearly earnings; you cannot assume that you will take contingency at every tournament. 

Like Rolo said, impact a pro has is based on the given area. In the circles that i am apart of, 3d doesn't impact our choices on any at all; its not applicable to what we shoot. What reo uses, what jesse uses, what braden uses, MIGHT get us talking about the rationale but we don't run out and change things up because "its what the pro's are doing". Hell, i've had influence on a rather large number of shooters for the little exposure i've had and i don't push product very hard. 

J Whittington- were the contracts terminated mid term or just not renewed/mutual dissolution? From my sources hoyt's staff budget isn't exactly hurting at the moment.

Jame- what 3d venues have 10k single sponsor contingency? I wasn't able to find any in the little bit of looking that i have done, i'm curious to know.


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## ABTABB

N7709K said:


> Jame- what 3d venues have 10k single sponsor contingency? I wasn't able to find any in the little bit of looking that i have done, i'm curious to know.


I'm not Jame but... All 7 ASA Pro/Ams (more at the Classic) and IBO..
BTW, that was the best ShootOff (Jame/Levi) I have ever seen.!
View attachment 1525954


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## 3Dblackncamo

Jame and Levi put on an outstanding shootoff, and Jame won a big check now this is gone, this will hurt hoyt in the long run


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## bhtr3d

Rolo said:


> Wrong Easton...


 (not easton-bell inc ) 

Easton- Sports, Inc . is the Easton that owns Hoyt Archery....purchased in 1983


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## ABTABB

Not sure why this didn't post above...


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## Daniel Boone

ABTABB said:


> Not sure why this didn't post above...
> View attachment 1526196


Jame Jamison was die hard Hoyt person all his archery life. Many others good pros as well. Seems now that Hoyt has some of the best and winning they cant except it. 

What a crock of crap from a big time manufacture! Don't care who made decisions it sucks and isn't right. 


DB


----------



## Rolo

bhtr3d said:


> (not easton-bell inc )
> 
> Easton- Sports, Inc . is the Easton that owns Hoyt Archery....purchased in 1983


Yes...that Easton used to own the bat and hockey stick production too. But it was sold off and the Easton Foundation was created. Easton Sports/Arrows still owns Hoyt, just not the other stuff, and it is not a public company.


----------



## Rolo

Daniel Boone said:


> Jame Jamison was die hard Hoyt person all his archery life. Many others good pros as well. Seems now that Hoyt has some of the best and winning they cant except it.
> 
> What a crock of crap from a big time manufacture! Don't care who made decisions it sucks and isn't right.
> 
> 
> DB


Build your own archery company and do what ever you want with the money. To label something a "crock of crap" without knowing any of the other considerations that went into the decision, and what/where the money is being used for instead is assinine...


----------



## Daniel Boone

Rolo said:


> Build your own archery company and do what ever you want with the money. To label something a "crock of crap" without knowing any of the other considerations that went into the decision, and what/where the money is being used for instead is assinine...


Once again the mighty Rolo think no one can have an opionion but him. Blah Blah blah. 

Hoyt stuck it to the 3d pros who devoted years to them. 

Dont you worry about how I feel. Have a actually thought of your own!


Be sure and tell those longtime pros that Hoyt didnt send them walking with lack of contengency this year when you see them.
DB


----------



## rock monkey

:moviecorn


----------



## rhyno_071

So the question is... will this hurt or help Hoyt's profits? I say hurt. What do you guys think?


----------



## reylamb

Rolo said:


> Yes...that Easton used to own the bat and hockey stick production too. But it was sold off and the Easton Foundation was created. Easton Sports/Arrows still owns Hoyt, just not the other stuff, and it is not a public company.


Yup, the Easton bats/hockey sticks, etc was owned by the same Easton Family at one time.......but I think the sale was what, 3 or 4 years ago?

The folks at Bell kept the Easton name/logo for the obvious name recognition in those respective markets.

Personally, I do not think dropping the contingency will hurt the sales for Hoyt on a national level. In a few small markets, maybe.

Go to any hunting show, Buckaram in Atlanta, the Harrisburg show, the ohio big buck expo....whatever. Ask a random group of bowhunters (not target archers but only bowhunters)if they can name 3 Hoyt pros...............I doubt they could. Heck, some of my bowhunting buddies only know about John Dudley and Levi from their TV shows, they had no idea they were target archers before they had TV shows.


----------



## okarcher

It could be the trickle down affect where a bunch of guys being influnced by the pro's maybe influncing other people and so on even those who wouldn't know the name of the pro who influnced the guy who influnced them. Pyramid affect maybe? They may be to much to think about. LOL


----------



## reylamb

okarcher said:


> It could be the trickle down affect where a bunch of guys being influnced by the pro's maybe influncing other people and so on even those who wouldn't know the name of the pro who influnced the guy who influnced them. Pyramid affect maybe? They may be to much to think about. LOL


That would be an awfully big pyramid, and I think I got confused somewhere along the way!!!!! Most bowhunters are more influenced by the guys with hunting shows. I would venture to say, just in the state of Georgia, less than 10% of bowhunters ever attend any type of target archery event, locally or nationally.


----------



## itbeso

reylamb said:


> That would be an awfully big pyramid, and I think I got confused somewhere along the way!!!!! Most bowhunters are more influenced by the guys with hunting shows. I would venture to say, just in the state of Georgia, less than 10% of bowhunters ever attend any type of target archery event, locally or nationally.


Rey, 10% must be the going percentage in Georgia, I heard that is the number of bowhunters who ever attended school also.Lol.:teeth:


----------



## Bucks

I am sure Hoyt put thought into this change, weighed many factors, and I am sure the decision wasnt made lightly. If someone here was involved in the discussions and wants to share, its an opinion worth listening to. Yes, its bad for pros. It is yet to be seen if it is bad for the company. Until then, its all conjecture. For the "big man keeping the little man down" crowd, yes its about money.... their money.


----------



## Jame

N7709K said:


> F2F is a closed competition, there are strict requirements to be eligible. A large portion of the worlds best were present, but some were not; 2k contingency for F2F is a really nice amount (pretty much would have covered the trip) and its not the only contingency that reo walked away with. That 2k comes nowhere near what he made through his staff contracts. Reo is one of a handful of archers in history that can figure a percentage of contingency into their yearly earnings; you cannot assume that you will take contingency at every tournament.
> 
> Like Rolo said, impact a pro has is based on the given area. In the circles that i am apart of, 3d doesn't impact our choices on any at all; its not applicable to what we shoot. What reo uses, what jesse uses, what braden uses, MIGHT get us talking about the rationale but we don't run out and change things up because "its what the pro's are doing". Hell, i've had influence on a rather large number of shooters for the little exposure i've had and i don't push product very hard.
> 
> J Whittington- were the contracts terminated mid term or just not renewed/mutual dissolution? From my sources hoyt's staff budget isn't exactly hurting at the moment.
> 
> Jame- what 3d venues have 10k single sponsor contingency? I wasn't able to find any in the little bit of looking that i have done, i'm curious to know.









I guess i made thos figures up. Asa proams and ibo is 10k except for the world shoots. 12k for those. 

I hope your questions have been answered.


----------



## Bubba Dean

Anyone know how Mathews Pro Staff got to be dominate? A few years back Bear Archery ruled the 3D world. Their staff included the Caudles, Dave Stepp, Jeff Hopkins, Allen Connor, Pete 
Works to name a few......someone decided that Bear Archery didn't need a Pro Staff, and the rest as they say is history. So I guess Hoyt wants to follow in Bear's footsteps.


----------



## Jame

What bothers me most is how some guys on this forum could care less about the growth of this awesome sport.


----------



## Bucks

Jame said:


> What bothers me most is how some guys on this forum could care less about the growth of this awesome sport.


is this is referring to the notion that a mfg pulling back a percentage of the money from a pro's contingency is going to harm the overall growth of the sport? is it possible they already tried it, found the ROI didnt help their P&L and pulled back on the program? 

i do not see the cause and effect.


----------



## Daniel Boone

rhyno_071 said:


> So the question is... will this hurt or help Hoyt's profits? I say hurt. What do you guys think?


Diffiantly hurt. PSE dropped there shooting staff I felt it hurt them. Pete finally decided it time to get back on top and got a staff again.

Who will help, those pros that leave and go win for another company. Whatever company they choose. 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

Bubba Dean said:


> Anyone know how Mathews Pro Staff got to be dominate? A few years back Bear Archery ruled the 3D world. Their staff included the Caudles, Dave Stepp, Jeff Hopkins, Allen Connor, Pete
> Works to name a few......someone decided that Bear Archery didn't need a Pro Staff, and the rest as they say is history. So I guess Hoyt wants to follow in Bear's footsteps.


Your correct and remember when PSE dropped there staff!
DB


----------



## SonnyThomas

Jame said:


> What bothers me most is how some guys on this forum could care less about the growth of this awesome sport.


The wanting of growing archery has been hashed to death. No one has come up with anything that has amounted to anything. I asked earlier organizations and sponsors, have there been any 
and what was the outcome or failure of (not exact words). Didn't want them to have the power over, what?
Has Chrysler/Dodge said, No? Ford? Chevy? Tide? Fed Ex? Viagra? (had to throw that one in).

Down here on the bottom rung, I'm not in position to know anything or approach big sponsors or the such.

Numbers count. Where are the numbers? Regular ole archery clubs. Get the numbers to the higher levels of archery and things could happen.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Once again the manufacture not out a dime unless they get a winner. It a great thing. 

How many posting here can win contingency money?

Mathews/PSE has proven having archers winning is nothing but a plus. PSE sense getting a great stafff has diffiantly put thereself back in the game. Hoyt used to like to win 3d, Bobby Ketcher, Danny Mcarthy and this year Danny Evans won his first and of course we all know the satisfaction Hoyt got from Jame winning the classic, 3d biggest event and bragging rights over Mathews and PSE. Just when Hoyt was coming on the scene and making the top shoot downs and winning in 3d they pull the rug out from under the shooters. Just doesn't make good sense. What are there reasons. Are they going to go after target venue only now. By cutting 3d and not the target there diffidently making a statement!
DB


----------



## 3-D Quest

Jame said:


> What bothers me most is how some guys on this forum could care less about the growth of this awesome sport.


Jame,
I agree with you on this quote. And...
I personally think Hoyt will be hurt by all this in the long run. Only time will tell.
I'm just one, and probably not the only long time Hoyt shooter that will be switching this year.
I think it's just time for a change.
It's not just that their contingency is being cut, but also the fact that their prices keep creeping higher and higher every year.
I'm sending an Pro Elite to our US troops and I'm handing on an '11 Alpha Elite to a dear friend in need, he's receiving a great bow and I wish him Luck this up and coming 3-D season.
I wish you Luck no matter whose bow you shoot this up and coming season.
And God Bless each and everyone this Holiday Season!


----------



## Daniel Boone

3-D Quest said:


> Jame,
> I agree with you on this quote. And...
> I personally think Hoyt will be hurt by all this in the long run. Only time will tell.
> I'm just one, and probably not the only long time Hoyt shooter that will be switching this year.
> I think it's just time for a change.
> It's not just that their contingency is being cut, but also the fact that their prices keep creeping higher and higher every year.
> I'm sending an Pro Elite to our US troops and I'm handing on an '11 Alpha Elite to a dear friend in need, he's receiving a great bow and I wish him Luck this up and coming 3-D season.
> I wish you Luck no matter whose bow you shoot this up and coming season.
> And God Bless each and everyone this Holiday Season!


Thats awesome what your doing. I honestly hate seeing guys who are die hard Hoyt archers having to leave Hoyt. Hoyt sure sending the wrong message to 3d archers. 3d still growing and even the known distance class is continually doing better each year.
It was great to see Reo and Jesse and those guys come over and shoot know distance 3d event. Honestly thought Hoyt was going to be encouraging archers to join 3d with the marked yardage.
DB


----------



## 3-D Quest

Thank You Dan.


----------



## Babyk

Heard Dan McCarthy and Hammer were the only two Hoyt shooters left for 3-D for this year???
This can't be true can it???


----------



## reylamb

Babyk said:


> Heard Dan McCarthy and Hammer were the only two Hoyt shooters left for 3-D for this year???
> This can't be true can it???


If I had to guess I would say Paul Thompson and Tony Tazza will still be shooting Hoyts.......but that is just a guess.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

Jame said:


> What bothers me most is how some guys on this forum could care less about the growth of this awesome sport.


alot of talk from people who dont shoot 3D, personally if I had started shooting a hoyt in open c and EARNED my way to pro yes I would have a problem with hoyt, I would shoot something else, no way I will support someone or something that cut my throat! This is still the 3D section


----------



## Fury90flier

Isn't a contingency just like a bonus at any other job? If so, counting on it for part of a salary isn't very smart.


----------



## tmorelli

Fury90flier said:


> Isn't a contingency just like a bonus at any other job? If so, counting on it for part of a salary isn't very smart.


No one "counts on it".

The bottom line is that if you are a pro, putting in the work and hoping to supplement your income or make a living at the game, why on earth would you shoot a bow that doesn't pay....or pay nearly as well as others?

If you are an amateur, aspiring to compete at a high level, putting in the work, fronting the costs.....why on earth would you do it with a bow that doesn't pay now nor when/if you make it?

Contingency is an attribute that some might want to consider in their equipment choice.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rolo

tmorelli said:


> No one "counts on it".
> 
> The bottom line is that if you are a pro, putting in the work and hoping to supplement your income or make a living at the game, why on earth would you shoot a bow that doesn't pay....or pay nearly as well as others?
> 
> If you are an amateur, aspiring to compete at a high level, putting in the work, fronting the costs.....why on earth would you do it with a bow that doesn't pay now nor when/if you make it?
> 
> Contingency is an attribute that some might want to consider in their equipment choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2




May very well depend on what the company is, or is not, doing for me under the contract I may or may not have with them...what if the contractual support has increased, thereby increasing the guarantee (at least for some), while the 'guaranteed' possibility has decreased some? Maybe there's a new way of doing things...a 'year end' bonus or other way, that rewards the individuals for more than winning...

Maybe the ROI simply wasn't there...


----------



## N7709K

Tony, I know what you're saying and i agree to a point.

If i can shoot one brand better than another, its much easier to reach the level where contingency enters the equation. You are at a level where the bow isn't really an issue; you'll shoot them all well. In the stuff i shoot, contingency is the same pretty much across the board, there are more hoyts than anything else on the pro line at most shoots and they don't have the most factory shooters.


----------



## tmorelli

Rolo said:


> May very well depend on what the company is, or is not, doing for me under the contract I may or may not have with them...what if the contractual support has increased, thereby increasing the guarantee (at least for some), while the 'guaranteed' possibility has decreased some? Maybe there's a new way of doing things...a 'year end' bonus or other way, that rewards the individuals for more than winning...
> 
> Maybe the ROI simply wasn't there...


I don't disagree Rolo. It isn't hard to imagine that this was a financial decision that Hoyt carefully thought out.

However, I don't believe that the contract values were increased to compensate for the lost potential in contingency. None of the pros I know have mentioned anything but cuts (not just contingency).





Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rolo

tmorelli said:


> I don't disagree Rolo. It isn't hard to imagine that this was a financial decision that Hoyt carefully thought out.
> 
> However, I don't believe that the contract values were increased to compensate for the lost potential in contingency. None of the pros I know have mentioned anything but cuts (not just contingency).


Could be...could be Hoyt is re-allocating the $ to other venues too. Could be they Hoyt is taking a 'wait and see' approachfor a lot of reasons...


----------



## tmorelli

Rolo said:


> Could be...could be Hoyt is re-allocating the $ to other venues too. Could be they Hoyt is taking a 'wait and see' approachfor a lot of reasons...


It's their right to do so. 

I speculate that Hoyt is chasing the international market with political/economic reasoning. 

As a conservative American, i say.... dang it but....more power to them.

As an archer i say.....hmmmmm.

As a 3d'er i say..... crap....hope other manufacturers don't follow suit. I want our game to be a desirable investment for manufacturers....but like others, I don't have the answer.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> It's their right to do so.
> 
> I speculate that Hoyt is chasing the international market with political/economic reasoning.
> 
> As a conservative American, i say.... dang it but....more power to them.
> 
> As an archer i say.....hmmmmm.
> 
> As a 3d'er i say..... crap....hope other manufacturers don't follow suit. I want our game to be a desirable investment for manufacturers....but like others, I don't have the answer.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I think they admitted defeat in 3d market. Shame they have supported archers for so long in 3d with good results. I still say I quess the Hoyt shooters were winning to much and they cant handle success.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

Fury90flier said:


> Isn't a contingency just like a bonus at any other job? If so, counting on it for part of a salary isn't very smart.


Contingency is earned not given away. No bonus, you got to win to get it. Not an easy task for anyone.
DB


----------



## Rolo

tmorelli said:


> It's their right to do so.
> 
> I speculate that Hoyt is chasing the international market with political/economic reasoning.
> 
> As a conservative American, i say.... dang it but....more power to them.
> 
> As an archer i say.....hmmmmm.
> 
> As a 3d'er i say..... crap....hope other manufacturers don't follow suit. I want our game to be a desirable investment for manufacturers....but like others, I don't have the answer.


As to the 3-D side...

I find it a little difficult to support the 'growth of the sport' side when the 2 major orgs have decided to eliminate 1/2 the US by geography. A good business decision for them (at least in the short term)...but how does the the sport grow when the market remains the same? If the same people keep coming back to the same places...there is no growth. How saturated does a market need to become before the market changes?


----------



## Babyk

New Pro Comp was on order 
Told my dealer to cancel it since I will not support Hoyt any longer


----------



## yardagegusser

Babyk.
I'm with you. not going to support them if they can,t support the sport of 3-D archery


----------



## Dartonman

Maybe some of you guys who are crying "foul" can explain why you feel Hoyt owes any shooter?


----------



## J Whittington

Daronman Hoyt owes us nothing, Your are correct. Shooters, archers, customers do not owe them, or any other bow company either. However, myself and others, want to support companies that support archery. Think about weather patterns, Rain, sunshine, evaporation, clouds then rains again.

I like hoyts products, thats currently all I have. That may change, and it may not, but I will admitt, their products are not currently on my list of new bows im considering because of THEIR CHOICE. Yes thats their right to do so, and so is mine. IMHO hoyt makes the best quality bows currently on the market.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Dartonman said:


> Maybe some of you guys who are crying "foul" can explain why you feel Hoyt owes any shooter?


Maybe becuase it been this way for how many years! They started it! Maybe if Darton had staff shooters someone might buy them
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

reylamb said:


> If I had to guess I would say Paul Thompson and Tony Tazza will still be shooting Hoyts.......but that is just a guess.


Why would they. $3000.00 win if that possiable is an insult to these guys.
DB


----------



## 3Dblackncamo

Rolo said:


> Could be...could be Hoyt is re-allocating the $ to other venues too. Could be they Hoyt is taking a 'wait and see' approachfor a lot of reasons...


hoyt has plenty of money to advertise on this site, but they wont get a copper penny from this ol country boy!


----------



## Rolo

J Whittington said:


> However, myself and others, want to support companies that support archery.


Ok...we know contiongencies are cut back. But therse contingencies are available to a relatively small number of people.

Can you explain how cutting contingencies...which is cutting potential payments to a small number of people, equates to 'not supporting archery'? Maybe they are taking those resources and expanding the shop shooter programs (I know our program changed quite a bit, to the benefit of the people on it). That sounds like supporting archery, doesn't it? I understand that the 'pros' are upset because they still have the chance at some extra cash, just not as much as before...but how is not supplementing a limitted number of folks 'not supporting archery'?

Seems that cutting sponsorship for shoots would be 'niot suporting archery...but I just don't see cutting back on contingency as somehow not supporting archery...


----------



## Rolo

Daniel Boone said:


> Why would they. $3000.00 win if that possiable is an insult to these guys.
> DB


Could be because they make their living in the archery industry...representing Hoyt, Easton, and a few other companies...but what do I know...


----------



## Rolo

3Dblackncamo said:


> hoyt has plenty of money to advertise on this site, but they wont get a copper penny from this ol country boy!


I imagine they'll survive without it...


----------



## tmorelli

Rolo said:


> Ok...we know contiongencies are cut back. But therse contingencies are available to a relatively small number of people.
> 
> Can you explain how cutting contingencies...which is cutting potential payments to a small number of people, equates to 'not supporting archery'? Maybe they are taking those resources and expanding the shop shooter programs (I know our program changed quite a bit, to the benefit of the people on it). That sounds like supporting archery, doesn't it? I understand that the 'pros' are upset because they still have the chance at some extra cash, just not as much as before...but how is not supplementing a limitted number of folks 'not supporting archery'?
> 
> Seems that cutting sponsorship for shoots would be 'niot suporting archery...but I just don't see cutting back on contingency as somehow not supporting archery...


Rolo,

I get what you are saying. 

I won't say I believe in a "top down" archery growth plan but....I believe that the top must be healthy to be a desirable aspiration for the up and coming generations in order for growth to occur in our sport. 

I don't like how individual pros have been affected by this but in bigger picture view, it's easy for me to envision other manufacturers following suit...the result of which will likely be a dwindling (more so) pro class....and as a result the genre I prefer could also be hurt.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## salmon killer

Wow I cant belive this topic got to 7 pages.3D and Hoyt will all survive.This has happened before just house cleaning.


----------



## Rolo

tmorelli said:


> Rolo,
> 
> I get what you are saying.
> 
> I won't say I believe in a "top down" archery growth plan but....I believe that the top must be healthy to be a desirable aspiration for the up and coming generations in order for growth to occur in our sport.
> 
> I don't like how individual pros have been affected by this but in bigger picture view, it's easy for me to envision other manufacturers following suit...the result of which will likely be a dwindling (more so) pro class....and as a result the genre I prefer could also be hurt.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Are you talking specific to 3-D or all venues? If you look at the "target" venues it is exactly the opposite, and if the international programs are thrown in, then all that has been said about Hoyt in this thread can be said about others.

That said, I see what you are saying. Could be a "cleaning of the house" as has been suggested, could be re-allocation, could be a lot of things.

Could also be the beginnings of the incentive the 'Pro' class needs to actually become a pro class and organization, and do something for themselves (generally speaking) rather than waiting for manufacturers to do it for them...I hear this non-endenic sponsorship talked about all the time...but never hear of an organized group of 'Pros' who are out there seeking it...instead, it's the orgs who have failed/refused to...


----------



## N7709K

IMO the shooters that will get outside sponsors or atleast try are not the ones winning


----------



## Rolo

N7709K said:


> IMO the shooters that will get outside sponsors or atleast try are not the ones winning


Not individual sponsorships...association sponsorships.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Rolo said:


> Could be because they make their living in the archery industry...representing Hoyt, Easton, and a few other companies...but what do I know...


 What do you know? Nothing about Hoyt pros and 3d contengencys!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

salmon killer said:


> Wow I cant belive this topic got to 7 pages.3D and Hoyt will all survive.This has happened before just house cleaning.


 So Hoyt kicking there shooters that were winning contengecy to the curb? Your correct!
DB


----------



## Rolo

Daniel Boone said:


> What do you know? Nothing about Hoyt pros and 3d contengencys!
> DB


:jaw:


----------



## N7709K

Rolo said:


> Not individual sponsorships...association sponsorships.


those are the ones i'm talking about; the pros that will be pushing for a association sponsorship will be the pros who aren't winning. If you are a winning pro you have some income coming in from contracts. If you place, maybe win one or two, etc you aren't getting the good contracts but you still want to make money to justify your time and effort. 

The push for outside sponsors isn't necessarily from the winners


----------



## Daniel Boone

Don't you love the guys who don't shoot 3d that got this stuff figured out. Some how you got to think some of the target venue supporters are supporting Hoyt in what there doing and glad, few on this thread who couldnt ever win this money that being taken away. What a shame for those who seem to find comfort in 3d pros losing contingency. 

This will effect several die hard Hoyt shooters in 3d. It will effect the ones who were winning for them and not the ones making bold statements here about like there enjoying the show. It going to hurt HOYT! You can take that to the bank.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

Rolo said:


> :jaw:


Rolo loves seeing the fact 3d pros lose. Big laughing matter! I dont see the laughter in 3d pros who have dedicated there archery to Hoyt. Sad!
DB


----------



## N7709K

i'm not supporting hoyt so much as i see there reasoning for what they are doing and i see big picture. It doesn't matter to me what venue or venues they cut contingency or cut number of shooters in; im not in a position to be effected, neither are you or a large number of people in this thread. If i was pulling in contingency checks on a regular basis i would feel differently, but i would also be in a much different position.


----------



## Daniel Boone

N7709K said:


> those are the ones i'm talking about; the pros that will be pushing for a association sponsorship will be the pros who aren't winning. If you are a winning pro you have some income coming in from contracts. If you place, maybe win one or two, etc you aren't getting the good contracts but you still want to make money to justify your time and effort.
> 
> The push for outside sponsors isn't necessarily from the winners



Money could go to those who suck up the most instead of the ones winning which is few and far those who can go make a shoot down. Not very many make the shoot downs in pro 3d. 
DB


----------



## Rolo

N7709K said:


> those are the ones i'm talking about; the pros that will be pushing for a association sponsorship will be the pros who aren't winning. If you are a winning pro you have some income coming in from contracts. If you place, maybe win one or two, etc you aren't getting the good contracts but you still want to make money to justify your time and effort.
> 
> The push for outside sponsors isn't necessarily from the winners


True...but imagine the money (which appears to be the primary motivator for some) that would be available for the winners. Enough non-endemic money becomes present, tand the winnings get paid down a whole lot more levels. If money is the motivator...then the winners have more (should have more at least) incentive to bring non-endemic sponsors in.

But, it really shouldn't be up to the individual, it should be up to the association to do it...


----------



## Rolo

Daniel Boone said:


> Rolo loves seeing the fact 3d pros lose. Big laughing matter! I dont see the laughter in 3d pros who have dedicated there archery to Hoyt. Sad!
> DB


No...not really...but that isn't what made me chuckle either...


----------



## Daniel Boone

N7709K said:


> i'm not supporting hoyt so much as i see there reasoning for what they are doing and i see big picture. It doesn't matter to me what venue or venues they cut contingency or cut number of shooters in; im not in a position to be effected, neither are you or a large number of people in this thread. If i was pulling in contingency checks on a regular basis i would feel differently, but i would also be in a much different position.



Your correct it only effects those few who were winning. Apparently it was to many winning. Mathews and PSE will dominate the 3d seasons now. Certainly cant blame any Hoyt pro for leaving and going to a manufacture who will support them for there wins.
DB


----------



## N7709K

the winners have incentive to be sponsored, get the money for them, not the org. If you are on the cusp of winning, then its much easier to spread the wealth so to speak because its probably one of the only ways you will ever see it. I understand what you are saying tho. 

if an org or orgs are going to get outside sponsors its going to take some major changes from all the venues and going to see lots of archers leave the sport.


----------



## N7709K

Daniel Boone said:


> Your correct it only effects those few who were winning. Apparently it was to many winning. Mathews and PSE will dominate the 3d seasons now. Certainly cant blame any Hoyt pro for leaving and going to a manufacture who will support them for there wins.
> DB


maybe is was not enough, there isn't too much red and white on the 3d podium.


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## Rolo

N7709K said:


> the winners have incentive to be sponsored, get the money for them, not the org. If you are on the cusp of winning, then its much easier to spread the wealth so to speak because its probably one of the only ways you will ever see it. I understand what you are saying tho.
> 
> if an org or orgs are going to get outside sponsors its going to take some major changes from all the venues and going to see lots of archers leave the sport.


But what if the non-endemic sponsors paid into the big pot at the end? A golf analogy...tournament winnings come from non-endemic sponsors...the potential for much higher and much deeper pay-outs is there...pay-outs that are not the responsibility of the association, or the manufacturers...


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## Daniel Boone

N7709K said:


> maybe is was not enough, there isn't too much red and white on the 3d podium.



There been a few who made the podiums after years of shooting and just now getting a check. Not like these guys are making a good living, there spending there hard earned money hitting the road for Hoyt. Danny Evans, Jame comes to mind. I make a point to congratulate Hoyt on the wins. WINS! I shot Hoyt for 17yrs. Have always supporting them for what they do to support these pros. Never have I ever been so dissapointed in Hoyt! Just my opionion. I have made a few calls and disscussed it with a few of them and there none of them happy. Several were surprised by the move. Many think they will change there minds eventually and return the contingencys. I sure hope so, but untill then I cannot and will not support Hoyt. I will support guys like Reo when he wins. Archery but not the manufacture.

Plus this cut was deep and apparently not disscussed with the shooters who have supported them for years.

No worries guys who win will move on and increase sales for manufactuers who are not afraid to support there 3d pros.
DB
DB


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## N7709K

it all depends on who draws in the money; if its the winners its going to much different than if its those who are close to or capable of it. I'm not super up on golf, but they pay back a portion to all the entrants, correct? 

DB- you sure are quick to throw someone under the bus when they do wrong in your eyes


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## Daniel Boone

N7709K said:


> it all depends on who draws in the money; if its the winners its going to much different than if its those who are close to or capable of it. I'm not super up on golf, but they pay back a portion to all the entrants, correct?
> 
> DB- you sure are quick to throw someone under the bus when they do wrong in your eyes



This was and you realize it pretty drastic cut immediately. Maybe had they considered the archers and even made a gradual cut it wouldn't I would see things differently. Maybe if they would have disscussed it and took the consideration of a few who I know bleed Hoyt and sold many bows for them for years before getting to podium. It dont effect you or me. It effects a few I call friends and admire for there determanation to get to a pro podium something that most here will never see or understand what it takes.

Its my opionion and I have never been one to not be honest and upfront about my opionion. Have sold a ton of Hoyts in my day.
DB


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## salmon killer

I dont understand why Hoyt would want to drive a wedge between them and the some of best 3D archers in the world. (bad for busniess) These men and women are vey dedicated to there sport and to Hoyt. And they shoot other venues in archery to. Like others have said I will not support Hoyt Im just a weekend 3Der I had my days in the sun at 3D in the 90s and early 2000s.If I ran a bow company I would do what ever I could to keep my alies to my sport and my company!


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## Bruce 2

I heard Mathews is giving all the ex Hoyt guys free gear. Just a rumor.


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## Dartonman

Daniel Boone, I think I get your thinking(your spelling...not so much:smile...these poor guys have dedicated their "archery lives" to Hoyt (not trying to win for their own personal reasons/glory) and now Hoyt is kicking them to the curb? 

Using that same reasoning, do you think that Hoyt should continue to be supporting the IBO?...who kicked their sister company (mackenzie/delta) to the curb for their own selfish reasons?...after years and years of sponsorship?


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## SonnyThomas

Dartonman said:


> ///// do you think that Hoyt should continue to be supporting the IBO?...who kicked their sister company (mackenzie/delta) to the curb for their own selfish reasons?...after years and years of sponsorship?


If Hoyt is pulling out (almost entirely) of 3D I'd say they weren't supporting both the ASA and IBO. Of course, "sister company" put their bid in (targets) and lost. Whether the move for the IBO to go with the other target brand was wise won't be known until the coming years.... So far as what I've heard, the IBO Triple whatever wasn't all that impressive for attendance the last couple of years. I don't know, just what I heard.

I don't keep records of 3D winners, but for sure in the Pro division Mathews has the biggest chunk of wins - figure Mr Hopkins and Mr Morgan have corralled such for the past ??? 14 years.

When Danny Evans (Hoyt) won this year, IBO, how many top Pros were at that event? That event got poor PR. I think Danny had his picture/winning check taken somewhere other than the podium.

I don't shoot in Pro division, but I give congrats and look forward for the next shoot out. These boys are the best in the world.


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## hrtlnd164

I guess my take is this; back in 2008 the big 3 all cut cont. across the board by around 50%. Everyone seen the demise of 3-D archery as we knew it. It's still here and really hasn't changed much as far as the number in attendance. So maybe this isn't the be all, end all that some are portraying it to be. 3-D will survive; Hoyt will be OK.
As far as those who this has affected I do understand what they have to be thinking. Most will never realize what it takes to reach the point of collecting one of these Bonus checks. For their hard work, dedication and effort to reach that level they will now not be getting what they feel is their just due. With that being said there are folks who do not understand why this cut is not more of an issue to more archers. Simply put, at any given Nat. tourny there are basically 3-4 individuals who possibly have a chance at the Bonus check in the Pro division.
I enjoy every day I get to shoot no matter what type of shooting it is. Hoyt has backed my small dealer way better than any other Man. has and will continue to get my support for that reason. Time will tell what affect this wil have for both Hoyt and 3-d..


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## Daniel Boone

hrtlnd164 said:


> I guess my take is this; back in 2008 the big 3 all cut cont. across the board by around 50%. Everyone seen the demise of 3-D archery as we knew it. It's still here and really hasn't changed much as far as the number in attendance. So maybe this isn't the be all, end all that some are portraying it to be. 3-D will survive; Hoyt will be OK.
> As far as those who this has affected I do understand what they have to be thinking. Most will never realize what it takes to reach the point of collecting one of these Bonus checks. For their hard work, dedication and effort to reach that level they will now not be getting what they feel is their just due. With that being said there are folks who do not understand why this cut is not more of an issue to more archers. Simply put, at any given Nat. tourny there are basically 3-4 individuals who possibly have a chance at the Bonus check in the Pro division.
> I enjoy every day I get to shoot no matter what type of shooting it is. Hoyt has backed my small dealer way better than any other Man. has and will continue to get my support for that reason. Time will tell what affect this wil have for both Hoyt and 3-d..


Very well said. I saw PSE pull it shooters back in the day when they just caught Hoyt and won the 3d worlds from Bobby Ketcher with Hoyt. It made for good archery 3d in the advertisements. George Dixon winning certianly help Mathews gain lots of respect. Levi diffiantly bringing and giving Mathews all the advertisement they need!

Hoyt will be Ok, but there certianly sending the message in 3d it not a top priority any more. I can see times being hard and dropping all venues contengencys if that the case. But Hoyt drew the line on 3D. There going to lose some fine archers who diffiantly helped Hoyt here in my state and nation wide. Which by the way at onetime when Nathan Brooks and Bobby Ketcher shot Hoyt was the only bow to buy in Oklahoma. Hoyt was king here. Not even close any more. Recently noticed good Hoyt pro who is also a pro shop manager that in his area alone leaving PSE now domanates that area. So if Hoyt thinks these guys dont make thousands of sales I do believe there wrong. PSE staff of 3d shooters has done leaps and bounds for them. Amazing how popular PSE is getting around here, plus the fact there making some great bows. I cant for the life of me understand how some cant see the rewards Mathews gets from supporting archers. Bowtech proven it can be done without supporting pros. I do think Bowtechs missing the boat by not supporting the pros and not proving there bows can stand on the top podiums with the best


Realize there many target and field guys who would love nothing more than to see 3d fail. Its never going to change from these guys.
They dont like 3d and will certianly take ever chance they get to bash 3d. I really thought 3d was helping Hoyt by making the known yardages class's. I was great to see the Hoyt target guys giving 3d a try even if it was just a few events. I felt Hoyt may get behind the known distance in 3d and support it more. 3ders buy lots of hunting bows and sale lots of bows.
DB


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## BrokenLimbs

Just curious, but these contingency checks everyone is referring to... ~ How large are these checks (individually, on average) that will no longer be issued by Hoyt? (And collectively, how much $$ is no longer on the table?)


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## hrtlnd164

Daniel Boone said:


> Very well said. I saw PSE pull it shooters back in the day when they just caught Hoyt and won the 3d worlds from Bobby Ketcher with Hoyt. It made for good archery 3d in the advertisements. George Dixon winning certianly help Mathews gain lots of respect. Levi diffiantly bringing and giving Mathews all the advertisement they need!
> 
> Hoyt will be Ok, but there certianly sending the message in 3d it not a top priority any more. I can see times being hard and dropping all venues contengencys if that the case. But Hoyt drew the line on 3D. There going to lose some fine archers who diffiantly helped Hoyt here in my state and nation wide. Which by the way at onetime when Nathan Brooks and Bobby Ketcher shot Hoyt was the only bow to buy in Oklahoma. Hoyt was king here. Not even close any more. Recently noticed good Hoyt pro who is also a pro shop manager that in his area alone leaving PSE now domanates that area. So if Hoyt thinks these guys dont make thousands of sales I do believe there wrong. PSE staff of 3d shooters has done leaps and bounds for them. Amazing how popular PSE is getting around here, plus the fact there making some great bows. I cant for the life of me understand how some cant see the rewards Mathews gets from supporting archers. Bowtech proven it can be done without supporting pros. I do think Bowtechs missing the boat by not supporting the pros and not proving there bows can stand on the top podiums with the best
> 
> 
> Realize there many target and field guys who would love nothing more than to see 3d fail. Its never going to change from these guys.
> They dont like 3d and will certianly take ever chance they get to bash 3d. I really thought 3d was helping Hoyt by making the known yardages class's. I was great to see the Hoyt target guys giving 3d a try even if it was just a few events. I felt Hoyt may get behind the known distance in 3d and support it more. 3ders buy lots of hunting bows and sale lots of bows.
> DB


I totally agree that Hoyt has set themselves up to loose some damn fine talent. Everyone keeps referring the the Pros as Danny E., Tim G. and Danny Mc. But the 1st that came to my mind was the Pro who had one of the most dominant seasons ever in 3-D, Cara F. If anyone has busted ass and upped their game any more than this shooter; I would like to know who they are.


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## Daniel Boone

hrtlnd164 said:


> I totally agree that Hoyt has set themselves up to loose some damn fine talent. Everyone keeps referring the the Pros as Danny E., Tim G. and Danny Mc. But the 1st that came to my mind was the Pro who had one of the most dominant seasons ever in 3-D, Cara F. If anyone has busted ass and upped their game any more than this shooter; I would like to know who they are.


Damn right and she dominated. Very impressive shooting. Would love to see her try to make the US team in world cup. Hope she does well indoor this season. Women never seem to get respect. They got to get the numbers up in womens pro class.

Market for women hunting and tournament is growing more now than ever.
DB


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## reylamb

Daniel Boone said:


> Very well said. I saw PSE pull it shooters back in the day when they just caught Hoyt and won the 3d worlds from Bobby Ketcher with Hoyt. It made for good archery 3d in the advertisements. George Dixon winning certianly help Mathews gain lots of respect. Levi diffiantly bringing and giving Mathews all the advertisement they need!
> 
> Hoyt will be Ok, but there certianly sending the message in 3d it not a top priority any more. I can see times being hard and dropping all venues contengencys if that the case. But Hoyt drew the line on 3D. There going to lose some fine archers who diffiantly helped Hoyt here in my state and nation wide. Which by the way at onetime when Nathan Brooks and Bobby Ketcher shot Hoyt was the only bow to buy in Oklahoma. Hoyt was king here. Not even close any more. Recently noticed good Hoyt pro who is also a pro shop manager that in his area alone leaving PSE now domanates that area. So if Hoyt thinks these guys dont make thousands of sales I do believe there wrong. PSE staff of 3d shooters has done leaps and bounds for them. Amazing how popular PSE is getting around here, plus the fact there making some great bows. I cant for the life of me understand how some cant see the rewards Mathews gets from supporting archers. Bowtech proven it can be done without supporting pros. I do think Bowtechs missing the boat by not supporting the pros and not proving there bows can stand on the top podiums with the best
> 
> 
> Realize there many target and field guys who would love nothing more than to see 3d fail. Its never going to change from these guys.
> They dont like 3d and will certianly take ever chance they get to bash 3d. I really thought 3d was helping Hoyt by making the known yardages class's. I was great to see the Hoyt target guys giving 3d a try even if it was just a few events. I felt Hoyt may get behind the known distance in 3d and support it more. 3ders buy lots of hunting bows and sale lots of bows.
> DB


Serious question here about PSE. I have heard it before and am hearing it now. It is being said by a few that PSE dropped off the map back in the 90s because they dropped their staff program, and they are making a comeback because of their staff program. My question is, is that factual?

Maybe, just maybe, PSE dropped off the face of the earth for a while because the product they were putting out was old designs, clunky looking, and frankly a sub-par product for a good part of the late 90s. Then, they come out with the X force, and and everything changed. PSE is a very popular bow in these parts with hunters, and there isn't a PSE pro staffer to be found anywhere. 

Is it chicken and egg as far as which came first? Poor product leads to poor sales, which leads to the elimination of the Pro staff program? Tremendous sales with the introduction of the X Force leads to increased sales, re-establishing PSE among the big dogs, which in turn leads to the re-introduction of the Pro Staff program? Or is it the elimination of the Staff program leads to poor sales, and the re-introduction of the staff leads to increased popularity? I personally lean towards the poor product that began it all, and the increased strength of the brand brought back the staff program.

I personally think, for most of the country, too much emphasis is given to how many sales the pro staffers directly lead to............


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## SonnyThomas

BrokenLimbs said:


> Just curious, but these contingency checks everyone is referring to... ~ How large are these checks (individually, on average) that will no longer be issued by Hoyt? (And collectively, how much $$ is no longer on the table?)


For 3D, quite few thousand dollars for one event. Put all together and you're looking at $80,000 or more over the year and then other moneys from other sponsors. I guess it depends on who you are, I've heard $2000 from one sponsor, for event or for the year I don't know. Damned few have contracts, as in; "we will pay you X amount regardless." Of course, when someone holds the contract and says; "You will be at X event," you better be there. Yes, "show up pay." I don't know if Hoyt did or does such, but I personally know of one past Mathews shooter who got a pay check for showing up at a State Championship. Wasn't anything big, but still a check that more than paid for his expenses. 

One thing, $80,000 ain't that much, not with taking out travel expenses and paying all your bills, health insurance and whatever. Before I retired as making around $75K and I retired in 2003 and I had my home and all paid for. So, yeah, $80,000 ain't that much. But then, if under contract for X amount, say $80,000, and winnings on top, $160,000 is a chunk of change.
How much was Dave Cousin's contract worth before he was cut loose?
How much for Chance, Jeff, Levi and ? ? 

I wonder, was there was some flack among shooters? A while back, in the defunct ANN, Levi Morgan was quoted of knocking down $72,000 (?) in some 6 weeks of shooting. The article was quickly removed, only the picture of Levi remaining. So maybe this didn't go over well?

And someone brought up how much contingency was in the past. The long gone 3D Shooting Times had a jester of things when Dave Cousins and Jeff Hopkins were in the shoot off for win at Vegas. The story went something like this; Cousins supposedly was trying to rattle the young Hopkins with; "I'm kind of nervous. I've never shot for $20,000 before. How about you?" Hopkins reportedly replied; "Doesn't bother me a bit. I've shot for $50,000." Jeff won. I'm guessing the $50,000 Jeff noted was at ASA event - Miller era?


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## reylamb

SonnyThomas said:


> For 3D, quite few thousand dollars for one event. Put all together and you're looking at $80,000 or more over the year and then other moneys from other sponsors. I guess it depends on who you are, I've heard $2000 from one sponsor, for event or for the year I don't know. Damned few have contracts, as in; "we will pay you X amount regardless." Of course, when someone holds the contract and says; "You will be at X event," you better be there. Yes, "show up pay." I don't know if Hoyt did or does such, but I personally know of one past Mathews shooter who got a pay check for showing up at a State Championship. Wasn't anything big, but still a check that more than paid for his expenses.
> 
> One thing, $80,000 ain't that much, not with taking out travel expenses and paying all your bills, health insurance and whatever. Before I retired as making around $75K and I retired in 2003 and I had my home and all paid for. So, yeah, $80,000 ain't that much. But then, if under contract for X amount, say $80,000, and winnings on top, $160,000 is a chunk of change.
> How much was Dave Cousin's contract worth before he was cut loose?
> How much for Chance, Jeff, Levi and ? ?
> 
> I wonder, was there was some flack among shooters? A while back, in the defunct ANN, Levi Morgan was quoted of knocking down $72,000 (?) in some 6 weeks of shooting. The article was quickly removed, only the picture of Levi remaining. So maybe this didn't go over well?
> 
> And someone brought up how much contingency was in the past. The long gone 3D Shooting Times had a jester of things when Dave Cousins and Jeff Hopkins were in the shoot off for win at Vegas. The story went something like this; Cousins supposedly was trying to rattle the young Hopkins with; "I'm kind of nervous. I've never shot for $20,000 before. How about you?" Hopkins reportedly replied; "Doesn't bother me a bit. I've shot for $50,000." Jeff won. I'm guessing the $50,000 Jeff noted was at ASA event - Miller era?


Back in the day Hoppy definitely walked away from an ASA Classic with over $50k.


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## Supermag1

reylamb said:


> Serious question here about PSE. I have heard it before and am hearing it now. It is being said by a few that PSE dropped off the map back in the 90s because they dropped their staff program, and they are making a comeback because of their staff program. My question is, is that factual?
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, PSE dropped off the face of the earth for a while because the product they were putting out was old designs, clunky looking, and frankly a sub-par product for a good part of the late 90s. Then, they come out with the X force, and and everything changed. PSE is a very popular bow in these parts with hunters, and there isn't a PSE pro staffer to be found anywhere.
> 
> Is it chicken and egg as far as which came first? Poor product leads to poor sales, which leads to the elimination of the Pro staff program? Tremendous sales with the introduction of the X Force leads to increased sales, re-establishing PSE among the big dogs, which in turn leads to the re-introduction of the Pro Staff program? Or is it the elimination of the Staff program leads to poor sales, and the re-introduction of the staff leads to increased popularity? I personally lean towards the poor product that began it all, and the increased strength of the brand brought back the staff program.
> 
> I personally think, for most of the country, too much emphasis is given to how many sales the pro staffers directly lead to............


Don't forget that around that same time is when the Drury brothers got really rolling too.

First, I'll say again, this really stinks for the 3D pros and will probably hurt Team Hoyt on the 3D side. BUT the hunting "pros" are the ones with the name and face recognition for these companies. Go to a local shoot and ask some people in the hunter class who some of the Pros are for their bow company and you'll likely hear names like Michael Waddell, Lee and Tiffany, the Drurys, etc. You might get lucky and get a few Levi and Samantha or Randy Ulmer answers but they'd be more due to their tv shows than their huge trophy cases.


----------



## kevoswifey

Daniel Boone said:


> Damn right and she dominated. Very impressive shooting. Would love to see her try to make the US team in world cup. Hope she does well indoor this season. Women never seem to get respect. They got to get the numbers up in womens pro class.
> 
> Market for women hunting and tournament is growing more now than ever.
> DB


To get numbers up in Women's Pro, they have to make people move out of Women's Open A and Open B. There are plenty of good shooters in Women's A, and some up and comers in B, but neither of these classes are forcing girls to move up. And honestly, any cut to contingencies makes that move even less appealing. Womens entry fees are just as high as men's, and the payouts are half as much. Going from spending $60 a weekend to shoot in Womens A, to $250 for Women's Pro is intimidating to some of the amateurs.


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## tecshooter

Supermag1 said:


> Don't forget that around that same time is when the Drury brothers got really rolling too.
> 
> First, I'll say again, this really stinks for the 3D pros and will probably hurt Team Hoyt on the 3D side. BUT the hunting "pros" are the ones with the name and face recognition for these companies. Go to a local shoot and ask some people in the hunter class who some of the Pros are for their bow company and you'll likely hear names like Michael Waddell, Lee and Tiffany, the Drurys, etc. You might get lucky and get a few Levi and Samantha or Randy Ulmer answers but they'd be more due to their tv shows than their huge trophy cases.


This is what I think Hoyt is thinking right now. They could probably market Waddell cheaper than the contingency budget and likely sell more bows. What the IBO/ASA should do is set up a booth at the national shoots for a meet and greet with him and some "pro hunters" and they would increase attendance just based on that.


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## TylerTexas

Daniel Boone said:


> Why would they. $3000.00 win if that possiable is an insult to these guys.
> DB


You have ZERO credibility after this comment. You're nothing more than a loudmouth. We are all dumb-er for having read your diatribe. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


----------



## Daniel Boone

reylamb said:


> Serious question here about PSE. I have heard it before and am hearing it now. It is being said by a few that PSE dropped off the map back in the 90s because they dropped their staff program, and they are making a comeback because of their staff program. My question is, is that factual?
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, PSE dropped off the face of the earth for a while because the product they were putting out was old designs, clunky looking, and frankly a sub-par product for a good part of the late 90s. Then, they come out with the X force, and and everything changed. PSE is a very popular bow in these parts with hunters, and there isn't a PSE pro staffer to be found anywhere.
> 
> Is it chicken and egg as far as which came first? Poor product leads to poor sales, which leads to the elimination of the Pro staff program? Tremendous sales with the introduction of the X Force leads to increased sales, re-establishing PSE among the big dogs, which in turn leads to the re-introduction of the Pro Staff program? Or is it the elimination of the Staff program leads to poor sales, and the re-introduction of the staff leads to increased popularity? I personally lean towards the poor product that began it all, and the increased strength of the brand brought back the staff program.
> 
> I personally think, for most of the country, too much emphasis is given to how many sales the pro staffers directly lead to............


PSE has good engineers. I do believe from what Im told the pro archers were giving lots of info to PSE as well to get those bows right. Believe what you want but I have seen pro staff and how it effects sales in my state. So given something in return for winning is not something you feel is a good thing, is this what your saying? You think pros don't sale bows? Maybe Mathews is doing it all wrong! Maybe Bowtechs got the right idea. Contengncys earned and not given and I believe manufactuers like being number one in winning tournaments. Hoyt certianly advertised its wins allot for nothing like you say in return. I think PSE has an excellant staff of pro archers. I think it has helped tremendously to there return. Apparently Pete thinks so to because he picking up more and more with time.

DB


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## Daniel Boone

TylerTexas said:


> You have ZERO credibility after this comment. You're nothing more than a loudmouth. We are all dumb-er for having read your diatribe. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Talk cheap and if you cant disscuss, talk crap and name calling. Its a disscussion thread and seems you cant handle someone else opionion or the truth spoken. Personally could care less about anyone who cant fill there profile out and admit who doing the speaking. Want anyone to take you serious and if your going to call names, atleast man up and say who you are! Wait you did tell us you are a bigtime supporter of archery. Talk cheap! One thing for sure others know me here and I dont hide behind a profile talking crap. I can disscuss and most understand even if they dissagree with what Im saying. Consider alot of these guys involved as good friends and dont think it right. If one reads your posts here it basicly arguement because they dont agree with you. Have yet to see where you helped any member of archerytalk.

God knows what I do everday and me and him are good! LOL
DB


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## BrokenLimbs

SonnyThomas said:


> For 3D, quite few thousand dollars for one event. Put all together and you're looking at $80,000 or more over the year and then other moneys from other sponsors. I guess it depends on who you are, I've heard $2000 from one sponsor, for event or for the year I don't know......


If it's only $80k that Hoyt pulled the plug on, from a business perspective it seems rather foolish to me. That $80k represents such a small amount of their annual cash flow/expenses. If they're cutting back there, seems to me they must be cutting back everywhere in response to our present economic times. Collectively, $80k here and $80k there adds up fast, but individually? ~ As a company admin, I'd be worried about it's impact on sales..... Unless of course Hoyt feels this $$ is better spent in other marketing channels.....

Then again: The last decade (here in the US) was all about: "Doing more and getting by with less." The theme for this decade is beginning to resemble a: "Doing something with nothing" approach. :sad:


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## peregrine82

There are many things that DB posts that I totally disagree with. I rarely if ever respond via post because my experience is that (A) I am not going to change his mind and (B) It only seems to invite a stronger response, therefore pointless for me to post. 

This is not a knock to DB as most of us fall in to this category. TylerTexas is way over the top with his post. All this is, is someone with strong views voicing his opinion even though it may not be totally correct.

This may or may not be related to Hoyt reducing contingency money to the pro ranks. For the last several years Hoyt has offered a staff shooter program to a dealer that worked at for several years after my retirement. They offered 4 bows, one of which could be an Elite series at a very generous discount below dealer cost and three at a lesser discount. This year that program has been radically cut back and is based on sales and only at the very high end of sales are 2 bows offered.

This may not seem like much but multiply that by all the dealers and it is substantial savings to Hoyt. It is my opinion that Hoyt is contracting because of a world economy that is in a serious state of decline. I am quite sure decisions are made at a boardroom table based on a much bigger picture than anyone here is looking at.


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## carlosii

Chico's Bail Bonds, anyone?

i don't have an answer to the question(s) regarding "growing archery" through sponsorships. i don't think its fair to hold the sponsoring associations responsible for the decision by hoyt to reduce its support. there's not much for the non-pro shooters but there are some rewards from folks like bohning, carbon express, easton, tru-ball, et. al. that i'd hate to see go away just to be added to the pros' pot, though.

i don't know how much time and effort the pro shooters are making to solicit outside sponsors to the sport, but it would seem to be in their interest to work with the associations to bring more money into the sport. lowe's doesn't sponsor jimmie johnson because they think they'll get some of the prize money. they do it for exposure and the fact that johnson and co. will participate in corparate events where the company folks can rub elbows with a "star". the pros should not expect the associations to do all the leg work for them.

but maybe they could start with Chico?


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## Daniel Boone

peregrine82 said:


> There are many things that DB posts that I totally disagree with. I rarely if ever respond via post because my experience is that (A) I am not going to change his mind and (B) It only seems to invite a stronger response, therefore pointless for me to post.
> 
> This is not a knock to DB as most of us fall in to this category. TylerTexas is way over the top with his post. All this is, is someone with strong views voicing his opinion even though it may not be totally correct.
> 
> This may or may not be related to Hoyt reducing contingency money to the pro ranks. For the last several years Hoyt has offered a staff shooter program to a dealer that worked at for several years after my retirement. They offered 4 bows, one of which could be an Elite series at a very generous discount below dealer cost and three at a lesser discount. This year that program has been radically cut back and is based on sales and only at the very high end of sales are 2 bows offered.
> 
> This may not seem like much but multiply that by all the dealers and it is substantial savings to Hoyt. It is my opinion that Hoyt is contracting because of a world economy that is in a serious state of decline. I am quite sure decisions are made at a boardroom table based on a much bigger picture than anyone here is looking at.


I never know how or what the responses are going to be. But I do know someone should say something. I understand fully why pros hardly posts here at AT whether there a celebrity hunter or tournament pro. Because members could care less and most are just down right mean. Scott Starnes (nicest pro you will ever meet) last time he posted helping was called an idiot. There was a time many came and helped here. Those days wont happen again. 
Pros know not to post here. No win call. 

Hoyt has the right to do whatever they want and they did. Awareness now we will see if they change in the future and return the contingency's like some do when they make a call like this. My hopes it doesn't carry on to there target pros. I will always support the pros in archery. There the best because of dedication and God given talents. Amazing how so many think I can be a pro if I wanted too. Most here and not saying you think this way. Know the fact is only a few will ever stand on a Pro podium with a win in open pros regardless the venue. 
DB


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## reylamb

carlosii said:


> Chico's Bail Bonds, anyone?
> 
> i don't have an answer to the question(s) regarding "growing archery" through sponsorships. i don't think its fair to hold the sponsoring associations responsible for the decision by hoyt to reduce its support. there's not much for the non-pro shooters but there are some rewards from folks like bohning, carbon express, easton, tru-ball, et. al. that i'd hate to see go away just to be added to the pros' pot, though.
> 
> i don't know how much time and effort the pro shooters are making to solicit outside sponsors to the sport, but it would seem to be in their interest to work with the associations to bring more money into the sport. lowe's doesn't sponsor jimmie johnson because they think they'll get some of the prize money. they do it for exposure and the fact that johnson and co. will participate in corparate events where the company folks can rub elbows with a "star". the pros should not expect the associations to do all the leg work for them.
> 
> but maybe they could start with Chico?


Way back in the day there was the creation of the PGA tour. Way back then most of these guys were club pros, and more often than not gamblers/hustlers. When the tour first started they played for their share of whatever entry fees there were, and even contingency money from manufacturers. Most of these characters were so shady, that it was the reason given by Bobby Jones on why he would not turn pro, he viewed it as a less than honorable trade.....pretty strong words coming from an attorney.

Fast forward to the late 70s - early 80s. Somewhere along the way the PGA commissioner decided he was sitting on a gold mine, he just needed a way to extract it. The proliferation of live TV, a mini-explosion of golf courses being built, and some low cost municipal courses started popping up all over the country, golf was growing beyond simply the country clubs. The commissioner began going to companies outside of golf to get sponsorship for their events. Now we have what is a multi-billion dollar business. PGA tour pros these days can win more in 1 tournament that Byron Nelson ever won in a career. Why? They went outside of golf to get money.

Sure pro golfers are still walking billboards, and many of them still get some type of compensation from their mfgs for sporting their logos, clubs, balls of whatever, and yes most still get some type of contingency for wins. Take a look though at the walking billboards.......you see a bunch of non-golf logos on shirts, bags, hats, etc.

NASCAR, same thing. Sure Ford, GM, and Toyota still offer some type of factory support, but they went outside the car mfg world to get money. The purses got larger because of the million dollar race sponsorships, etc.etc.etc.....

Heck, even the pro bowling circuit has outside sponsorships.

Maybe it is time for the archery equivalent of the PGA tour. Actual qualifications to be pro, but a commissioner of some sort out marketing the pro archers to outside companies for sponsorship dollars. They could work with the ASA, IBO, and NFAA to secure title sponsors for the shoots, and bring in money to finance the pros. The pros might then actually be able to make a living shooting bows and not rely on the bow mfg to foot the entire bill.

My prediction? Mathews and PSE will follow Hoyts lead next year and greatly reduce their contingency programs also.........but only time will tell on that one.


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## reylamb

Daniel Boone said:


> PSE has good engineers. I do believe from what Im told the pro archers were giving lots of info to PSE as well to get those bows right. Believe what you want but I have seen pro staff and how it effects sales in my state. So given something in return for winning is not something you feel is a good thing, is this what your saying? You think pros don't sale bows? Maybe Mathews is doing it all wrong! Maybe Bowtechs got the right idea. Contengncys earned and not given and I believe manufactuers like being number one in winning tournaments. Hoyt certianly advertised its wins allot for nothing like you say in return. I think PSE has an excellant staff of pro archers. I think it has helped tremendously to there return. Apparently Pete thinks so to because he picking up more and more with time.
> 
> DB


You missed my point here.....

PSE fell into a lull after Pete handed control of the companie over to the kids. Their designs became stale. Once that happened, they dropped the pro staff. They did not loose sales because they dropped the staff, they lost sales because their designs were stagnant.

Fast forward a few years, and Pete takes charge again. Out comes the X Force, their sales explode. The following year they added Nathan and Eric. The year after that they had the "fab" 5 or whatever they were calling it, Nathan, Chance, Eric, Michael and Adam if memory serves me correctly. Their re-introduced their staff program because sales exploded after the Xforce. Sales did not take off because they added a staff.

Mathews is Mathews and cannot be viewed the same way as the others are viewed. They have created a brand, a brand like no other. They could produce the worst bow in the history of mankind and it would sell like hotcakes, not because of the pro staff, but because it is Mathews.

You mention Bowtech....they have done quite well with absolutely no prostaff shooters. They must be doing something right.

My prediction is that you will soon be seeing more of the mfg reducing staff programs, and pouring more and more money into hunting shows. I would be willing to be the vast majority of bowhunters, not target archers but bowhunters, could not pick Tim G, Hoppy, Dan, Reo, Jame, Darrin, or Cousin Dave out of a lineup.....but most know who Dave Watson, Randy Ulmer, Lee & Tiff, the Drurys, the Bone Collector crew, etc are, and could tell you all of the equipment that they shoot are. TV is a mass market tool, and has a far longer reach than target archery. Heck, if not for some archerytalkers it would be hard, if not impossible, to get any news form most of the shoots.

Hypothetical question Dan.......if Bass Pro, say in Dallas (if there is a BPS in Dalls) were to put out a flyer.....on next Saturday Tim Gillingham, Reo Wilde, Cara Fernandez, Michael Waddell and Lee and Tiffany would be on hand to sign autographs.......how long would the waits be for the target archers vs the waits for the hunting celebs? I know you have been to ATA shows, so I know you have seen this first hand........I have personally watched Reo walk around the ATA show and very few people recognize him.....but Lee & Tiff or Waddell and T-Bone walk around and they get stopped every 5 seconds for autographs and pictures.

I am sure someone somewhere at Hoyt has done a ROI analysis and determined that they are not getting out what they are spending. Who knows, maybe they move that money to TV shows. Maybe they move that money to sponsoring more archery tournaments than they already do. Maybe they move that money to the World teams or the Olympic developement center. Who knows. What I do know is that I am sure this was not a decision that Randy Walk woke up one morning and said, hey, no more contingency money. I am sure alot went into the decision.

As far as giving something in exchange for winning. Certainly, that is a good thing. I just personally do not know and cannot say for certain that the mfg get out what they put in. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I have never seen the accounting books to make that determination.

The only thing I do know is that if I were a pro, I would be out searching for sponsorships from someone that is not archery related. If the pros have as much influence in Oklahoma as you say they do, maybe they should be hitting up car dealerships, gas stations, grocery stores, etc. Believe me when I say this, contingency money to an archer that could influence consumers to buy from me is wayyyyyyyy cheaper than TV and radio commercials. There is a finite amount of money to be extracted from the mfg, but an nearly untapped outside world that may be gained from thinking outside the box. Who knows, there coudl even be the possiblity of going to a car dealership and getting more than just contingency, maybe travel expenses and a small stipend.


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## Daniel Boone

reylamb said:


> You missed my point here.....
> 
> PSE fell into a lull after Pete handed control of the companie over to the kids. Their designs became stale. Once that happened, they dropped the pro staff. They did not loose sales because they dropped the staff, they lost sales because their designs were stagnant.
> 
> Fast forward a few years, and Pete takes charge again. Out comes the X Force, their sales explode. The following year they added Nathan and Eric. The year after that they had the "fab" 5 or whatever they were calling it, Nathan, Chance, Eric, Michael and Adam if memory serves me correctly. Their re-introduced their staff program because sales exploded after the Xforce. Sales did not take off because they added a staff.
> 
> Mathews is Mathews and cannot be viewed the same way as the others are viewed. They have created a brand, a brand like no other. They could produce the worst bow in the history of mankind and it would sell like hotcakes, not because of the pro staff, but because it is Mathews.
> 
> You mention Bowtech....they have done quite well with absolutely no prostaff shooters. They must be doing something right.
> 
> My prediction is that you will soon be seeing more of the mfg reducing staff programs, and pouring more and more money into hunting shows. I would be willing to be the vast majority of bowhunters, not target archers but bowhunters, could not pick Tim G, Hoppy, Dan, Reo, Jame, Darrin, or Cousin Dave out of a lineup.....but most know who Dave Watson, Randy Ulmer, Lee & Tiff, the Drurys, the Bone Collector crew, etc are, and could tell you all of the equipment that they shoot are. TV is a mass market tool, and has a far longer reach than target archery. Heck, if not for some archerytalkers it would be hard, if not impossible, to get any news form most of the shoots.
> 
> Hypothetical question Dan.......if Bass Pro, say in Dallas (if there is a BPS in Dalls) were to put out a flyer.....on next Saturday Tim Gillingham, Reo Wilde, Cara Fernandez, Michael Waddell and Lee and Tiffany would be on hand to sign autographs.......how long would the waits be for the target archers vs the waits for the hunting celebs? I know you have been to ATA shows, so I know you have seen this first hand........I have personally watched Reo walk around the ATA show and very few people recognize him.....but Lee & Tiff or Waddell and T-Bone walk around and they get stopped every 5 seconds for autographs and pictures.
> 
> I am sure someone somewhere at Hoyt has done a ROI analysis and determined that they are not getting out what they are spending. Who knows, maybe they move that money to TV shows. Maybe they move that money to sponsoring more archery tournaments than they already do. Maybe they move that money to the World teams or the Olympic developement center. Who knows. What I do know is that I am sure this was not a decision that Randy Walk woke up one morning and said, hey, no more contingency money. I am sure alot went into the decision.
> 
> As far as giving something in exchange for winning. Certainly, that is a good thing. I just personally do not know and cannot say for certain that the mfg get out what they put in. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I have never seen the accounting books to make that determination.
> 
> The only thing I do know is that if I were a pro, I would be out searching for sponsorships from someone that is not archery related. If the pros have as much influence in Oklahoma as you say they do, maybe they should be hitting up car dealerships, gas stations, grocery stores, etc. Believe me when I say this, contingency money to an archer that could influence consumers to buy from me is wayyyyyyyy cheaper than TV and radio commercials. There is a finite amount of money to be extracted from the mfg, but an nearly untapped outside world that may be gained from thinking outside the box. Who knows, there coudl even be the possiblity of going to a car dealership and getting more than just contingency, maybe travel expenses and a small stipend.


Well said. If your in pro archery to get rich you most likely may be disappointing. Hunting will always be what carries manufactures.

You and myself remember Cabelas sponsorship and sponsors. I agree would like to see more outside sponsorship and most these guys are die hard hunters even though they shoot tournament. I would like to see this encouraged more but most got families and tournament season long. Be hard for me to think of one who doesn't hunt. Levi doing a good job promoting himself and in hunting shows as well. Hunting shows take personality as well. Hollywood you know what Im talking about. Now if guys like you would get out there and film more archery that would help! 


Pros do it for love but its nice getting that check doing what you love. It not easy getting on the podium. But I see a few making the move this year that very well might be the next generation. Hoyt rookie MICHAEL FRYFOGLE (winner of Paris semi pro)) I shot with on team in Paris has no fear and is a heck of shooter. We won and he hit 6 out of ten 14's Thats impressive.
DB


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## 3-D Quest

TylerTexas said:


> You have ZERO credibility after this comment. You're nothing more than a loudmouth. We are all dumb-er for having read your diatribe. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Honestly TT You are way over the top! You've become the one with ZERO credibility following this self righteous rant focused completely on DB. 
I don't always agree with everything everyone posts, including DB but it is a discussion forum and everyone has THEIR opinion, good or bad. 
Check yourself and take a chill pill.


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## lefty150

TylerTexas said:


> You have ZERO credibility after this comment. You're nothing more than a loudmouth. We are all dumb-er for having read your diatribe. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Billy Madison?


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