# Float vs Score while executing a surprise shot



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

I listen to John Dudley’s podcast (which is really great, if you’re not listening; you should), he is adamant about not shooting a lot of weight on stabilizers just to hold steadier. I’ve also heard this from many shooters, “don’t worry about float”, “just let it float”, “if you execute well, the arrow will go where it’s supposed to”.

These opinions do not register in my overly logical thinking. Considering the law of averages; you cannot out shoot your float with an unanticipated shot. If your pin is in the X 90% of the time, you’ll hit the X 90% of the time. So a smaller float will be more accurate than a larger float. 

Do people shooting unanticipated shots, think they can out shoot their float? Assume the extra weight doesn’t cause fatigue, or tuning issues, why shouldn’t someone shoot more weight?


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

The only ones that will contest this are these guys who claim they have no "float" and can hold the pin/dot perfectly on the target. There's a few of them on here and they'll probably be along shortly to make those claims, so you'll get to hear this for yourself if they do come around.

But out here in the real world, you're exactly right - if it's a good shot, the arrow is mostly going to go where the pin was at the point of release. And the group will follow the tolerance of your float too, on average. The bigger the float, the bigger the group, in general. 

That's why the advice "let it float" is generally good advice. It helps remove a worry over something you can't avoid anyway, no matter how hard you try. All you can do is work to make the float as small as possible and the groups will tighten up accordingly (all else like tuning, shot sequence, form etc. being equal). 

As for lots of weight, it has been my experience that weight is a compromise so more or less isn't always better. There's an optimum where you get the best results. For me, for example, at my current strength level, I get my best results with a single 35" long rod with 1oz. of weight on the end and that's it. Any more weight (right now at least) causes me to shake more trying to hold the weight up which offsets any stability gains I'd otherwise get the extra weight. so that's what I run on my bows. As I get stronger in the bow arm, I might be able to add more to improve the situation overall. 

So it's really something you have to find the optimum for by trial-and-error. 

DM


----------



## doczerothree (Aug 24, 2009)

This is something I've tried to reason out. I watch shooters like Reo Wilde and others who seem to lock down so well they don't move. I guess practice, do what works......then repeat!
D


----------



## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

doczerothree said:


> This is something I've tried to reason out. I watch shooters like Reo Wilde and others who seem to lock down so well they don't move. I guess practice, do what works......then repeat!
> D


Watch some of the youtube videos under the World Archery channel. The best of the best are shooting in these events. Watch the end of their stabilizers and you will see movement. Watch their release hands and you will see slight trembles. I'm still trying to figure this phenomenon out myself... The best I can figure is the brain subconsciously works with the body and it all happens at the right moment, but this is achieved after countless hours of practice.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

It's all about letting your subconscious align the shot for you. Your brain will control your muscle movements and execute more efficiently that we can if we are trying to force a perfect shot because there's too big of a lag between what we see and the brain moving the muscles required to execute the shot. 


Aiming | rcrchery Inc.
https://rcrchery.wordpress.com/2014/11/18/aiming/


----------



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

dk-1 said:


> Watch some of the youtube videos under the World Archery channel. The best of the best are shooting in these events. Watch the end of their stabilizers and you will see movement. Watch their release hands and you will see slight trembles. I'm still trying to figure this phenomenon out myself... The best I can figure is the brain subconsciously works with the body and it all happens at the right moment, but this is achieved after countless hours of practice.


Stabilizer movement doesn't necessarily translate into pin movement. Their body could move all over, but if there bow arm adjusts to the body movement, the pin movement may be minimal. If you sat down and aimed at something, then stood up while still aiming, externally someone watching would see you moving all over. But, that doesn't mean your pin is coming off the target.


----------



## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

1. No one holds still, but the size of the float is different. When all is well, my float on Vegas is just outside the X ring. But still a float. For me to miss, it will be execution on the release end. Someone else's float may be the five ring. At 60 yards my float is just inside the 10 ring for perspective.
2. Think of a float as always going back to center. The vast majority of shots will be in the center of the float because you are always returning across center. That is the phenomenon.
As said weight it is individual. I'm 63, but run 35", 7 oz out front, 10 oz out the back, at 65#. Wouldn't recommend starting with that. Lol
I don't remember a consistent punch shooter. They can be hot, win, but time will catch up to their brain. 
I was on the Vegas line with Reo maybe ten years ago and he struggled on that round. 298 with a low 50 X count. My point, it isn't always there. But a solid float, solid BT will always have less frustration over time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Draw a circle, grab a pen and go from edge to edge 30-40 times through the centre. See where the dark patch is. It concentrates in the centre. This is what happens when you float. Most of its around the centre.


----------



## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

pherrley said:


> Stabilizer movement doesn't necessarily translate into pin movement. Their body could move all over, but if there bow arm adjusts to the body movement, the pin movement may be minimal. If you sat down and aimed at something, then stood up while still aiming, externally someone watching would see you moving all over. But, that doesn't mean your pin is coming off the target.


You're right about the body movement, but the stabilizer is a long extension of the bow. The movement at the end of a 30-33" stab has to translate to movement in the pin, they are all connected. If the stab was moving but the pin was not, that would mean the release hand was moving to counter the movement of the stabilizer. Think of a teeter/totter as a kid, it had a pivot point which was stationary. Typically our anchors are the most stable platform of the shot, right? The movement of 1/2" at the end of the stab might only translate to 1/2" of pin movement at 20 yards though, I have no clue of this ratio and I haven't studied it.


----------



## lacampbell2005 (Feb 17, 2015)

Tag


----------



## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

For the OP, find the way to shrink your float, steady your hold, whatever you want to call it, as small as you can get it. If it gets to be really still and you can repeat it, you've arrived. If its's from red to red, then you've got work to do and probably need to see a coach to fix some fundamentals.

Then you will find that your shot execution needs to improve drastically as you will see your execution pull or push the pin off your aim point.
It might be only a shaft or two but it will probably be enough to lose X's or points. 

This process may take a short while to several years depending on string time.

I wouldn't get hung up on a "surprise shot", just my opinion. 

Before nestly comes in with his ACAD Hoyt, a 1/2" quiver in a 32" stab, assuming the peep never moves, is about 6.5 inches POI movement at 20 yards, 
which is around .300" pin movement. The shot has broken down at that point or the shooter just had a mental seizure. 

If a person can float from one side of the baby X to the other at 20 yards, that equates to about .060" of movement on a 32" stab, or about 3 3/4 minutes 
of a degree at the target. That's pretty still. Some can hold smaller. 

Find a post by Shogun1 on how he creates hold, or settles into it - he penned one of 
the clearest explanations ever about this subject.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Rick! said:


> I wouldn't get hung up on a "surprise shot", just my opinion.


I disagree and here's why. To make a long story short, if you're having to command the release you're having to also fight off an extremely strong physiological instinct of the human body to react against a shock that it knows is coming. I know from personal experience the detrimental effects this has on not only your float, but everything else in your shot.

There's a good reason why guys like John Dudley are such strong advocates of the unanticipated release and why it's worth it to learn it through both training and technology. There are guys who can successfully command-shoot, but they're exceptions to the rule for sure (Tim Gillingham is one of the few that can really do it well)....

DM


----------



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

I didn't intend for this post to be directed toward shooting a controlled shot or an unanticipated shot. The only reason I said it in the example is because you can theoretically shoot better than your float if your commanding the release. 

I was hoping to get some understanding of why someone would have the opinion that doing something that decreases float (increasing weight in this case), would cause you to shoot worse.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The last season or two that I shot with a index finger release I had the goal of shooting a 3d tournament with only 5 flinches or jerks out of the 40 target course. I won many of those tournaments but I never did meet my goal. I got close a few times but never could pull the trigger while holding the pin on the 12 ring and not flinch some of the time.

Present day

I just shot another tournament this weekend, the asa in georgia. I stepped up to the target over and over and sent a smoothly executed shot, did I win. Hell no. Did I give each and every arrow a good chance to be a 12, hell yes.

That is the whole point of becoming a hinge or thumb trigger shooter who runs a firing engine that smoothly sends the arrow on its way, in the beginning when you are learning how to shoot them you really need to just have a nice shot window and allow the release to fire within it anywhere. Then as you become a strong shooter with the handheld you shrink down that window and it is still a surprise shot but you have earned the right to really fine tune the shot process so that you basically know when it is going to fire. This allows your aiming to match up with the execution so that you aren't forcing the aiming but your brain can manage it.

How do you manage. By watching your float and when you see the pin leaving the 12 ring or the x in a weird way you simply let down, that is the management. Management is not grabbing onto the pin and fixing the problem or trying to combat the problem, it is just letting down. 

For me right now I come to anchor and settle in and once I start my execution of the shot most of the time things look good and I am happy to continue and the pin is sitting or floating nicely and I can feel things about to fire and at that point sometimes the pin wants to leave right at the moment of truth and I want to let down but the release fires. This is the acceptance that I have to have that sometimes it will happen and I will miss, I must must must must accept that I am going to try and let down but sometimes it was just to close to firing. For the longest time I tried to pause and allow the pin to come back and then start up the execution and sometimes I tried to rush the shot because the pin was perfect and all of those choices led to poor shots. But the moment you accept that you are going to just let down when something weird is happening instead of trying to fix the problem you are going to be much better off. Sure you have to accept a few shots that happen before you can let down but those shots once you start doing this mentality are much better than the other kind from the other choices.


----------



## dk_ace1 (Mar 31, 2015)

pherrley said:


> I didn't intend for this post to be directed toward shooting a controlled shot or an unanticipated shot. The only reason I said it in the example is because you can theoretically shoot better than your float if your commanding the release.
> 
> I was hoping to get some understanding of why someone would have the opinion that doing something that decreases float (increasing weight in this case), would cause you to shoot worse.


I listen to Dudley as well. His assertion isn't that reducing the float with added weight will immediately make your shots worse (the opposite is likely true), but that adding excessive weight will fatigue you more quickly and potentially injure you if you aren't prepared for it. If you fatigue quickly from the added weight, you may float less for a few shots but you're scores will probably suffer over time due to the fatigue from the increased weight. If you add a ton of weight and shoot too much without being conditioned for it, you're also taking a big risk of unnecessary injury to yourself. 

If you're shooting in a high volume format or in a competition with a lot of shoot-off/up rounds, fatiguing early is going to hurt you ultimately. You need to keep your mass weight to something that you can shoot comfortably for the number of arrows and length of time necessary to finish a competition. Otherwise, you're going to shoot really good early in the competition and start to fall apart towards the end. 

I've recently switched to around 20 lbs of holding weight and a little higher mass weight. My shooting is better, but I wear out faster. I'm going slowly with it and listening to my body (which sometimes means an extra day or two of rest). While I'm increasing my mass weight, I'm still a lightweight by many people's standards. Ultimately, I want to be to the point where I have enough weight to not get pushed around too much by the wind and have a good hold, but not so heavy that I can't get back on target when the wind does move me. I'm 6' tall and not a heavy guy, so the wind is going to move me some and there isn't anything I can do about it. I need to minimize that, get a good hold, and be able to get back on target when (not if) the wind moves me around. What mass weight will that be? Who knows, haven't found the right balance yet. I'll be basing the mass weight decision on what works best for me though, not what someone tells me it should be.

D


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Exactly. Results based tuning. Cannot get any SIMPLER than that. Shoot the heaviest system weight, that YOUR stamina level allows. Really could not care less, what some PRO shooter uses for mass weight, cuz that has ZERO relevance to YOUR personal stamina levels.

"What mass weight will that be? Who knows, haven't found the right balance yet. I'll be basing the mass weight decision on what works best for me though, not what someone tells me it should be."


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dk_ace1 said:


> I listen to Dudley as well. His assertion isn't that reducing the float with added weight will immediately make your shots worse (the opposite is likely true), but that adding excessive weight will fatigue you more quickly and potentially injure you if you aren't prepared for it. If you fatigue quickly from the added weight, you may float less for a few shots but you're scores will probably suffer over time due to the fatigue from the increased weight. If you add a ton of weight and shoot too much without being conditioned for it, you're also taking a big risk of unnecessary injury to yourself.
> 
> If you're shooting in a high volume format or in a competition with a lot of shoot-off/up rounds, fatiguing early is going to hurt you ultimately. You need to keep your mass weight to something that you can shoot comfortably for the number of arrows and length of time necessary to finish a competition. Otherwise, you're going to shoot really good early in the competition and start to fall apart towards the end.
> 
> ...


Bravo. YOu are a voice of reason. Well done.


----------



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

dk_ace1 said:


> I listen to Dudley as well. His assertion isn't that reducing the float with added weight will immediately make your shots worse (the opposite is likely true), but that adding excessive weight will fatigue you more quickly and potentially injure you if you aren't prepared for it. If you fatigue quickly from the added weight, you may float less for a few shots but you're scores will probably suffer over time due to the fatigue from the increased weight. If you add a ton of weight and shoot too much without being conditioned for it, you're also taking a big risk of unnecessary injury to yourself.
> 
> If you're shooting in a high volume format or in a competition with a lot of shoot-off/up rounds, fatiguing early is going to hurt you ultimately. You need to keep your mass weight to something that you can shoot comfortably for the number of arrows and length of time necessary to finish a competition. Otherwise, you're going to shoot really good early in the competition and start to fall apart towards the end.
> 
> ...


I had to go back and listen to him again a bit. You're right, he does say those things. He also says if you let the pin float, as opposed to "hold like a rock [with a lot of weight]", you'll have more arrows in the middle.


----------



## dk_ace1 (Mar 31, 2015)

pherrley said:


> I had to go back and listen to him again a bit. You're right, he does say those things. He also says if you let the pin float, as opposed to "hold like a rock [with a lot of weight]", you'll have more arrows in the middle.


You're right, he's said that repeatedly. I've heard other top shooters say the same thing. I've also heard top shooters say the opposite. The belief of Dudley and I assume others that embrace pin float is that your body will subconsciously correct as the shot breaks and move the bow to center if the pin isn't in the center as it breaks and before the arrow leaves the bow (I'm paraphrasing, but that is essentially what he's said on other podcasts). The belief of others is that your average score is going to correspond with your average pin float so you need to shrink the amount of movement as much as you possibly can for higher scores. I like the logic of that position best. I've experienced plenty of shots where subconsciously I brought the bow to center when it broke off of center. I've seen that work, so I definitely won't deny that you can shoot that way. I still think that the less your pin moves from center as you're executing the shot the better off you'll be. I also don't think that the top shooters that embrace some float would tolerate very much of it. I'm putting words in their mouth, but I think they mean something like "get it as small as you can, and then live with it" more than "embrace it however big it may and hope for the best."

My own $.02, which doesn't amount to much since I can't yet outshoot the people whose opinions we're discussing, is that I want as small a float pattern as I can possibly achieve without adding bad tension into my shot. If I can reduce that float pattern to essentially no movement and still execute my shot and not have tension anywhere it doesn't need to be, then I think that's about as good as it is going to get.

Getting back to how this ties in to mass weight.... And again, I'm putting words in his and other's mouths, I think they mean that you'll have more in the middle if you let it float (minimally) with a mass weight suited to your physical conditioning than you will with a bow that holds like a rock when things are right but is ultimately too heavy for you. If you shoot a bow that you can handle you should be able to execute and finish the shot all the way very well and do it consistently. If your bow is too heavy, your form is going to start breaking down in ways both small and large that negatively impact your shots. If you're way too heavy, that probably happens the entire time you're shooting. If you're a little too heavy, that probably starts to impact your scores more the longer you shoot and start to fatigue.

This is nothing more than my understanding of what a lot of these guys are saying. I'm trying to understand them as best I can and apply the lessons to my own shooting. I may be completely wrong.

D


----------



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

dk_ace1 said:


> You're right, he's said that repeatedly. I've heard other top shooters say the same thing. I've also heard top shooters say the opposite. The belief of Dudley and I assume others that embrace pin float is that your body will subconsciously correct as the shot breaks and move the bow to center if the pin isn't in the center as it breaks and before the arrow leaves the bow (I'm paraphrasing, but that is essentially what he's said on other podcasts). The belief of others is that your average score is going to correspond with your average pin float so you need to shrink the amount of movement as much as you possibly can for higher scores. I like the logic of that position best. I've experienced plenty of shots where subconsciously I brought the bow to center when it broke off of center. I've seen that work, so I definitely won't deny that you can shoot that way. I still think that the less your pin moves from center as you're executing the shot the better off you'll be. I also don't think that the top shooters that embrace some float would tolerate very much of it. I'm putting words in their mouth, but I think they mean something like "get it as small as you can, and then live with it" more than "embrace it however big it may and hope for the best."
> 
> My own $.02, which doesn't amount to much since I can't yet outshoot the people whose opinions we're discussing, is that I want as small a float pattern as I can possibly achieve without adding bad tension into my shot. If I can reduce that float pattern to essentially no movement and still execute my shot and not have tension anywhere it doesn't need to be, then I think that's about as good as it is going to get.
> 
> ...


I would guess you’re probably more right than wrong in your interpretation of they’re statements. 

Maybe the difference in opinion is due to perspective. As Oldpro888 mentioned, his float is a little bigger than the X on a Vegas face. So when he has a miss it’s almost certainly due to some issue in his execution. My float is a little bigger than the 10 ring on a Vegas face, so the majority of my misses are due to float.

For insight into my perspective, I kept track of every arrow I shot for a little over a month this winter (702 arrows) on a 5 spot face. My average X count per game was 54; counting all the arrows, it broke down to 90% Xs, 53% I/O, with three 4s (oops). The 4’s were from my shot breaking down, and I’m sure some of the 5’s were from execution issues. But, my pin coming out of the X is an obvious issue for me if I ever expect to improve my scores. 

Maybe if I’m ever able to keep my pin in the X I’ll jump ship and tell everyone to “let it float”. “If my pin is in the X, I expect to hit the X. If my pin is floating outside of the X, I hope to hit the X” – Me. I’d like to get to the point where I expect more and hope less.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I would suggest that you take a good hard look at your transition, this took me years to even realize that it was a area that I needed to study and then master. Both thumb trigger releases and hinge releases have transition phases that you have to deal with and learning how to manage that transition can totally transform your shooting.

I finally recognized the existance of transition when I began studying my float, I drew back and left my thumb on the hinge thumb peg and just studied and holy crap I had a awesome float pattern. Problem was the moment that I took the thumb off the peg it went back to sucking. That right there led me into studying the transition phase of my shooting. Thumb triggers are no different and in my opinion worse than a hinge because you don't have the thumb on the trigger and then you have to lightly place it on there and be careful to not trigger it and then try and start your execution.

In the last year or so everything I do when it comes to training is based on my transition I can fire a hinge with any method out there so getting rid of the arrow is not the concern, doing it smoothly where I can shoot with my natural float and not screw with that float is the basis of my training. I am finding that the setup of the hinge is beyond important and it allows me to engage my shot right from the beginning well before the shot happens so that there is no extra pressures showing up within the execution that want to screw up the float pattern as the shot happens. 

I really liked Jesse Broadwaters method of yielding to get to click and then yielding some more and I also shot with rotating to click and then yielding to fire, both of those methods produced good shooting and I enjoyed them but they just had so much effort early in the shot to get up and running. I went back a couple weeks ago to coming to anchor and just before I release the peg I engage my fingers just a little as I apply my preload to the wall, just as I release the thumb from the peg my hinge clicks with no extra rotation or yielding and all of my pressures are perfect in my entire system and I just execute the shot and the arrow is gone. I felt really nice all weekend in georgia and didn't leave the stake after shots ticked that my execution had pulled the pin off the 12 ring or caused funny floats.


----------



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

Padgett said:


> I would suggest that you take a good hard look at your transition, this took me years to even realize that it was a area that I needed to study and then master. Both thumb trigger releases and hinge releases have transition phases that you have to deal with and learning how to manage that transition can totally transform your shooting.
> 
> I finally recognized the existance of transition when I began studying my float, I drew back and left my thumb on the hinge thumb peg and just studied and holy crap I had a awesome float pattern. Problem was the moment that I took the thumb off the peg it went back to sucking. That right there led me into studying the transition phase of my shooting. Thumb triggers are no different and in my opinion worse than a hinge because you don't have the thumb on the trigger and then you have to lightly place it on there and be careful to not trigger it and then try and start your execution.
> 
> ...


I've drawn back without any intention of releasing to watch my float as well, I haven't done it enough to be able to tell a difference between that and my float when I'm executing a shot. I'll give it a try.

If you don't mind sharing, what was the measurable output difference you noticed or contribute to exercise above? How big was your float before and after, and what were your indoor (5 spot or Vegas) scores before, and after?


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am only a amateur, I can float inside a 5-spot x with my .19 pin. The reason I am a amateur is that I am not able to shoot 60x rounds in competition, I have shot lots of them over the years just training and when I am training I usually average around one miss every hundred shots or so and have been over 500 shots in a row a few times. I like to keep track of inside out x's and I am usually in the 52 to 56 out of 60 shots range when shooting a scoring round. 

But that is why I am still a amateur because I am not seasoned enough mentally to execute smoothly in competition like a really good shooter can. It is something I do want to do. 

As far as measurable difference, it is huge. For example last night I got home and was thinking about this thread when I set up to shoot down by the river I went ahead and did a few of the different methods of starting a shot. I used the same yielding firing engine every time but the difference in the usable float is where the difference is at. The awesome float existed in each shot but it happened at different times and most of the time it was more like a teaser, like "Look at me I am freaking awesome and I bet you wish the bow would fire right now but you aren't ready so here you go some crappy float."

For example:

1. Come to anchor and release the peg way early and come to click before settling in on the 12 ring, with this method you have to be on pause with the execution because after the click it is close to firing so the fingers are not engaged. So the float was awesome as I settled in on the 12 ring and as I tried to smoothly start the firing engine the pin acted funny as the pressures moved through the system. So you go from awesome float to struggling to keep it awesome as funny stuff happens.

2. Come to anchor with a slightly slower hinge so I have to yield while on the 12 and once I come to the click I have already been looking at a good float for a while and then have to wait another few seconds and continue yielding until it fires. The huge amount of good float just gets to the point where every shot seems longer and longer and longer and over time the float becomes irritating.

3. Speeded up hinge with non engaged fingers during the draw, This was the second best of the evening. Feels awesome during the draw cycle and once I come to anchor I allowed the thumb to release and tried to engage the fingers as I came to click and then yield. It gave me good shooting worth of competition but going from a soft hand to engaged within the shot and then trying to maintain a good float was mentally irritating and to much effort.

4. Best one: I set the speed of the hinge where my fingers were engaged during the draw and as I came to anchor as I let go of the thumb peg I started my execution so that as I clicked the execution was already started and I just continued yielding until it fired about 2 seconds later. this method was by far the best of the evening and was a sweet 30 minutes of shooting. The foat was very nice and the only weird part would take place right as I started releasing the thumb peg but that is well before I come to click and by the time I come to click it is a nice steady float on the 12 ring and I am still 2 seconds from firing and it remained solid on the 12 ring and I hit dead on for most of the time. I was shooting at 36 yards and when I missed or hit the edge of the 12 ring I shot a second shot and used the first arrow as a marker. Most of the time I only shot one arrow because the first one was solid.

That 4th method is the one that I am competing with right now most of the time and I like it because it moves the poor float issues to before the click and once I get there I am free to enjoy the shot instead of getting to click and trying to get started up and having to look at crappy stuff happening and worrying about it firing during it.


----------



## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

I guess I don't think over the process as much.
My click goes off when I settle behind the peep. I don't have any intention of firing, this is dictated by a proper float, if something goes awry, I let down. Once the float repeats, maybe 3-4 seconds steady, I execute back tension.
Some days the float repeats shot after shot. 30 years ago there were seasons that went like that. Now I struggle a little more. I'm not as strong, or mentally sharp as I once was.
If I struggle with a steady float, or the float gets jumpy as a initiate, it's time to slow down and not settle for a marginal shot.
With that said, I have never had formal coaching. I have been exposed to countless great shooters over the years. The likes of Dee Wilde, Rags, Pearson, Wise, to name a few, and learned by osmosis.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Oldpro888, I would love for you to use my current method for shooting a hinge. I think you are a great kind of shooter to give it a try and see the difference in the feel that it gives a shooter. In the end it will only take one small change in your hinge setup if any and that will be to set it a little slower if any.

Right now you said that your hinge comes to click as you are settling behind the peep, I am going to assume that you release the thumb peg at that time to allow it to come to that click also. 

So:

1. I want you to settle on the 12 ring before coming to click 

2. Now start yielding at the same time you release the peg and come to click.

3. Without pausing the yield just continue yielding for a second or two as it fires.

I started doing this method with two other setups this winter and they were much more drawn out with more dramatic rotation or effort to get to the click and I enjoyed them but i went back to the original concept of getting to click as you come to anchor and I just like it better. The key here is that I have set up my hinge so that I am already executing the hinge with full engagement of my system as I come to the click and then I just continue on until it fires. This allows me to not be in a frozen or paused or neutral state as I come to anchor and then have to start it up. I am already running. 

Funny thing is that I have done this with my smooth moon hinges for a long time and love it on level ground but on poor footing and down hill shots in 3d the changes in the hinge would cause weird fast firings or really slow firings of the hinge so I never was able to bank on it. With the click hinge it has that audible sound of where you are at so on iffy shots you aren't blind and can feel much more confident and relaxed.


----------



## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Padgett said:


> Oldpro888, I would love for you to use my current method for shooting a hinge. I think you are a great kind of shooter to give it a try and see the difference in the feel that it gives a shooter. In the end it will only take one small change in your hinge setup if any and that will be to set it a little slower if any.
> 
> Right now you said that your hinge comes to click as you are settling behind the peep, I am going to assume that you release the thumb peg at that time to allow it to come to that click also.
> 
> ...


Gave it a try because you suggested. Disaster. I felt like it just put another step in the process. I do feel my misses are high, lack of patience. Your process would help that. Just to long a hold at 63


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

oldpro888 said:


> 1. No one holds still, but the size of the float is different. When all is well, *my float on Vegas is just outside the X ring.* But still a float. For me to miss, it will be execution on the release end. Someone else's float may be the five ring. *At 60 yards my float is just inside the 10 ring for perspective.*2. Think of a float as always going back to center. The vast majority of shots will be in the center of the float because you are always returning across center. That is the phenomenon.
> As said weight it is individual. I'm 63, but run 35", 7 oz out front, 10 oz out the back, at 65#. Wouldn't recommend starting with that. Lol
> I don't remember a consistent punch shooter. They can be hot, win, but time will catch up to their brain.
> I was on the Vegas line with Reo maybe ten years ago and he struggled on that round. 298 with a low 50 X count. My point, it isn't always there. But a solid float, solid BT will always have less frustration over time.
> ...


I had by-passed this Post/Thread many times and wish I did again. Now, I find it impossible to fit my .019" pin inside the X ring of a NFAA 5 spot and "floating just outside the X ring of the Vegas face" is blows my mind. And then floating just outside the 10 ring at 60 yards?!!!! I just shot from 60 yards yesterday and my .019" was virtually covering up the entire 3.93" bull's eye of a NFAA 50 yard target and I use a 4X lens. That my pin covers this bull's eye I shot better by stacking my pin to the bull's eye.

Floating... I messed up a couple of days ago, messed up twice. First, I forgot to write down how I had my back bars and stabilizer weighted and then removed all the weights to put the Bee Sting set on another bow. The other bow didn't prove out, so there I was lost. But, before I removed the stabs and weights I had the back bars set just so and the back bars and stabilizer weighted to the little TX4 would at times would hold perfectly steady, not always, but even float was so very little. At 15 yards and using a one shot drill I put arrow after arrow in the same hole. For 20 and 25 yards the X ring was dead meat. I was either hitting or scaring the X ring bad from 35 yards. Now, I'm starting all over. I have it close, but not like before...


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Gotta love a good disaster day when hinge shooting, I know I have had my share.


----------



## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

A few years back I was at an indoor range practicing while a shooting class was going on and they had a laser device that attached to your bow and projected on the spot. I was asked to demo. I held on the target and let down. 
The majority had no idea how small the float was compared to what they see. I had no idea how large the float was on beginners to novice. My comments weren't to brag or discourage, but with that experience in mind


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

A few years ago we were in the booth area and had been messing with bernies thing that you you can shoot a release with that has a lazer on it. We layed it down and walked over to another booth and my buddy said "Holy crap, Chance Boubeauf is holding the bernier thing." We watched him draw it back and on the other side of the room probably 40 or so yards away the little lazer dot just sit on a spot on the wall and didn't move at all for what seemed like to be a long time. We went back over there and aimed at the little spot and tried to do what he didn and totally failed miserably.


----------



## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

Padgett said:


> I finally recognized the existance of transition when I began studying my float, I drew back and left my thumb on the hinge thumb peg and just studied and holy crap I had a awesome float pattern. Problem was the moment that I took the thumb off the peg it went back to sucking. That right there led me into studying the transition phase of my shooting. *Thumb triggers are no different and in my opinion worse than a hinge because you don't have the thumb on the trigger and then you have to lightly place it on there and be careful to not trigger it and then try and start your execution.*


Sorry to only look at one part of your reply...but isn't this why "so-called hair" triggers are a bad thing? If you're going to be tentative on the trigger, it's set way too light. You should be able to wrap your thumb around it without fear of it going off and then apply back tension to set the arrow free...without punching.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

thunderbolt said:


> Sorry to only look at one part of your reply...but isn't this why "so-called hair" triggers are a bad thing? If you're going to be tentative on the trigger, it's set way too light. You should be able to wrap your thumb around it without fear of it going off and then apply back tension to set the arrow free...without punching.


This is correct. Stability in float has a lot to do with how you hold a release as well. You can get good pressure into a release with the fingers and it can help you steady up a little more. With a thumb trigger, I set mine up to put my thumb on it with a little force to begin with, then have the tension set to break the shot after I add a little more into it through my shot execution.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, that is what I was getting at. I know that both of my buddies that I shoot with all the time use hair triggers on their thumb triggers, they are self taught type shooters and to me after watching them become good thumb trigger guys it was a huge factor in their learning curve. Jason was the first one to really get good at it and he won lancasters this winter with a hair trigger. His is set so light that I notice that he has subtle changes as the weather changes from winter to spring temperatures where he might have misfires. Just watching a guy with a hair trigger come to anchor and then get the thumb on the trigger is a interesting thing. In the end it does work but I think there are better ways to do it. 

Shooting with a hair trigger to me kind of promotes a non aggressive approach to shooting with your back tension and execution. Where you basically just stand there and the release just fires. When I talk to them about their execution they really don't have a well defined method, they just get the thumb on and they claim to barely pull into the wall and the arrow is gone. Which is a firing engine but to me it is iffy.


----------



## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

Setting up your Carter with a hair trigger is just asking for trouble...Been there, done that and am now trying to re-program my shot sequence with a hinge. So far with no target it's a nice crisp release, but haven't got to where I want to see a target quite yet...


----------



## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

Padgett said:


> I am only a amateur, I can float inside a 5-spot x with my .19 pin. The reason I am a amateur is that I am not able to shoot 60x rounds in competition, I have shot lots of them over the years just training and when I am training I usually average around one miss every hundred shots or so and have been over 500 shots in a row a few times. I like to keep track of inside out x's and I am usually in the 52 to 56 out of 60 shots range when shooting a scoring round.
> 
> But that is why I am still a amateur because I am not seasoned enough mentally to execute smoothly in competition like a really good shooter can. It is something I do want to do.
> 
> ...


Padgett, 
This is why, even though you don't know me, I read your post, and try most of what you talk about. You've help to bring my game back to where I'm placing in my local 3Ds again after taking 20 years off. Thank you for that.....

_ "The reason I am a amateur is that I am not able to shoot 60x rounds in competition, I have shot lots of them over the years just training and when I am training I usually average around one miss every hundred shots or so and have been over 500 shots in a row a few times. I like to keep track of inside out x's and I am usually in the 52 to 56 out of 60 shots range when shooting a scoring round."_ 

Its the guys on here that give advise, and couldn't break 260 that drive me crazy.


----------



## ChadWhit (Aug 19, 2013)

Padgett said:


> Gotta love a good disaster day when hinge shooting, I know I have had my share.


amen


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

thunderbolt said:


> Sorry to only look at one part of your reply...but isn't this why "so-called hair" triggers are a bad thing? If you're going to be tentative on the trigger, it's set way too light. You should be able to wrap your thumb around it without fear of it going off and then apply back tension to set the arrow free...without punching.





Padgett said:


> Yeah, that is what I was getting at. I know that both of my buddies that I shoot with all the time use hair triggers on their thumb triggers, , they just get the thumb on and they claim to barely pull into the wall and the arrow is gone. Which is a firing engine but to me it is iffy.





thunderbolt said:


> Setting up your Carter with a hair trigger is just asking for trouble...Been there, done that and am now trying to re-program my shot sequence with a hinge. So far with no target it's a nice crisp release, but haven't got to where I want to see a target quite yet...


Steve Boylan, the only NFAA Senior Triple Crown Winner I know of, had his ST360 set so light I couldn't look at it without it firing, that super light. To me you'd have to be so incredibly aware of yourself and set so light there's no disturbing the shot. Me, I like my thumb releases so I can at least feel the barrel without them firing. And then noted is that set heavy you learn to "lean" on the barrel and pretty soon you are "leaning" too much and getting the same effect as too light. So I would guess one has to adjust to something of a medium setting and you'd be better off.. I have mine set heavy with the heavy spring and it doesn't feel heavy and I do get a unexpected fire from time to time.

Not to forget, said was Michelle Ragsdale had her release set so heavy people thought it wouldn't go off.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a committed hinge shooter, I only shoot a thumb trigger once every few months just for the heck of it so all of my training consists of hinge shooting methods and differences in speed and execution. If I was a committed thumb trigger guy I guarantee you that I would have heard the michelle ragsdale claims and I would have spent the time to train with a trigger like that and at least see what it had to offer along with a hair trigger and a medium and ones with a little creep and ones with a no creep at all. 

In the end I have a feeling that a thumb trigger shooter would totally benefit from having a competition release and a practice release that is set heavier, why? Because I have learned in my hinge shooting over the years that building up a firing engine that runs longer that is needed is a really freaking good thing. That is what a heavier trigger on the training thumb trigger would do for you is teach you how to shoot at a very high level with enough that once you put the competition one in your hand it is going to be freaking awesome. 

I have found that many many things work in the back yard but when you show up to a important shoot and things get serious that if you have only been shooting with one release and you firing engine only does just enough to fire the release when there is a little anxiety in your system your engine will shrink down what it has to offer and then you are left standing there and the release isn't going to fire and then the clock is counting down and you are freaking out and the next thing you know the weekend is over because you flung a arrow out into the blue or red. That is when the work you do with a heavier set release used in training could be your savior and allow you to execute right through the anxiety.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Padgett said:


> I am a committed hinge shooter, I only shoot a thumb trigger once every few months just for the heck of it so all of my training consists of hinge shooting methods and differences in speed and execution. If I was a committed thumb trigger guy I guarantee you that I would have heard the michelle ragsdale claims and I would have spent the time to train with a trigger like that and at least see what it had to offer along with a hair trigger and a medium and ones with a little creep and ones with a no creep at all.
> 
> In the end I have a feeling that a thumb trigger shooter would totally benefit from having a competition release and a practice release that is set heavier, why? Because I have learned in my hinge shooting over the years that building up a firing engine that runs longer that is needed is a really freaking good thing. That is what a heavier trigger on the training thumb trigger would do for you is teach you how to shoot at a very high level with enough that once you put the competition one in your hand it is going to be freaking awesome.
> 
> I have found that many many things work in the back yard but when you show up to a important shoot and things get serious that if you have only been shooting with one release and you firing engine only does just enough to fire the release when there is a little anxiety in your system your engine will shrink down what it has to offer and then you are left standing there and the release isn't going to fire and then the clock is counting down and you are freaking out and the next thing you know the weekend is over because you flung a arrow out into the blue or red. That is when the work you do with a heavier set release used in training could be your savior and allow you to execute right through the anxiety.


This is why I've developed what I call my "swing" way of shooting a hinge. Or seesaw method, depending on what's easier to picture from wording. It helps you when you're tense. 

On a thumb button there's a line on the button tension. A light trigger will be like a light set hinge. You'll be timid on the button and it'll cause you to not put enough tension on it to fire and you'll get jumpy and start punching at it to get the shot to fire. Or you'll mis fire with it because you don't have the same fine motor skills when you're tense. 

Same thing with a button set too stout. You can't fire it without a considerable amount of tension and that can lead to punching to get the shot to go off. 

When you set up a thumb release, you don't want the release to fire by travel. You'll feel the travel and things get messy. You want a button to fire from pressure. 

What I've found that works best with a button release is to be able to load pressure into the thumb at the same time as letting off the thumb barrel and coming to the click or evening out pressures on a hinge. 

This way you're not timid. And then just running your shot from there to execute with the release. 

I'm the opposite on releases than you with multiple ones set different ways. I've found more consistency by building confidence in how my releases are set. So I can shoot at home, at practice, at a shoot, wherever, all the same. No surprises that way. Nothing to build additional anxiety. I know the feel of my perfect shot. And I go find it and use it. That's a calming factor to me.


----------

