# Stiff spine unexpected results?



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I'm a little baffled by the way my "very" stiff Black Eagle X-Impacts are flying. According to all the charts and AA I'm way too stiff, yet the arrow seems to be flying just fine. Even the bare shaft flies like a pin out to 50 yard plus. My setup is below.

Bow: 2011 Dominator Pro TH
27.750 AMO DL
45#
Arrow: BE X-Impact LT 500/.001
25.5" from nock grove to end of carbon
120 grain point
F-Nock

According to AA this arrow should be 30" for a perfect spine. Other charts say anywhere from 28" up. Is this just a fluke or what?


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

I believe you would call this a "well tuned bow".


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeppers, I hear so much on the threads about spine and the more I shoot and learn to tune the less I care about it. I know that when I got my first 150 spine xxx shafts I knew they could shoot good because I watched pro shooters win with them all the time but i just thought something was wrong with that stiff spine but then I found that they shot awesome just like every other arrow I had shot.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

subconsciously said:


> I believe you would call this a "well tuned bow".





Padgett said:


> Yeppers, I hear so much on the threads about spine and the more I shoot and learn to tune the less I care about it. I know that when I got my first 150 spine xxx shafts I knew they could shoot good because I watched pro shooters win with them all the time but i just thought something was wrong with that stiff spine but then I found that they shot awesome just like every other arrow I had shot.


Yes, I'm thinking the tune is really good. Yesterday, I switched cams from the ME's to the original TH's, retuned and got the same results. I just happen to have another dozen of these shafts so this morning I cut a few at 30" just to try them out. Doesn't seem to be much difference at short range although the shorter one's cut a slightly cleaner hole. I assume this is due to some additional flex in the longer shaft. They seem to fly true though. I find the Dominator reacts very favorably to yoke tuning as you can cut a perfect hole in very short order with this very simple method.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

You can tune a bow to just about any arrow set up... I just came to the realization after chasing my tail for a couple of weeks that the recommended spine charts are just a stepping off spot to help get somoeone in the right ball park. 

If you know what you're doing with your bow tune and you know the basics of arrow voodoo (ie how to weight the point for different target applications), then you can pretty much throw the charts out of the window.

At my current DW of 42.5# with spiral cams, I can comfortably shoot arrows spined between 710 and 500 without very much diference in performance (if we're sticking to straight carbons). I just cut the lengths differently and put different weights in the nose depending on what 
game(s) I plan to use them for. :wink:

Oh, crap, I cannot type today....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC, you are not the first to experience this. Mine was backwards, plus you saw the targets where I used a 55 pound bow a .400 spine arrow with a 80 gr glue-in and on up to 192 grs (47 gr insert) and 145 field point). The only thing I had to do was correct elevation to kill the X ring at 20 yards. Pretty sure I tried 30 yards with only correctly for elevation.

First time "argument" with Archery programs was with the same 55 pound bow, measured 28 1/4" draw, and CXL Pro 150s, .500 spine with 90 grs glue-in points. All programs said my arrow set up was weak. But! I had outstanding accuracy. Not done. So I run into Danny Evans on the 3D course. Danny is Pro Staffer for Hoyt. Danny is a "horse!" Danny was using CXL Pro 150s longer than mine, with 140 grs points, and his draw length longer than mine and his draw way more than mine. He placed 3rd in a ASA ProAm either right before I spoke with him or shortly after. If my CXL Pro 150s were weak then Danny's CXL Pro 150s must have been wet spaghetti......

Are my bows tuned? I think so. Many have seen pictures of my backwards fletched arrows nailing the X ring from as far back as 35 yards. Many have seen 3 or 4 pics where I purposely ripped off one vane and still hammered the X ring from 20 yards, maybe farther. I've done this with several times with my ProElite, 3 Shadowcats and 3 Pearsons.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I believe with relatively short distances just about anything will shoot. The real test for my short arrows will be after I've shot more than a few field rounds with them. I've shot only 3 half rounds so far this season and didn't shoot very good. I believe that I was the problem, not the arrows. In about a month I'll know for sure


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

True that---it takes a good month to get the winter's mothballs worked off.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> True that---it takes a good month to get the winter's mothballs worked off.


The biggest problem I've encountered is sight picture. What was working inside isn't working outside due to the variance in lighting conditions. I've been messing around with various sized dots and fiber but they haven't worked out. Currently I've gone back to my trusty old True Spot and this seems better.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Padgett said:


> Yeppers, I hear so much on the threads about spine and the more I shoot and learn to tune the less I care about it. I know that when I got my first 150 spine xxx shafts I knew they could shoot good because I watched pro shooters win with them all the time but i just thought something was wrong with that stiff spine but then I found that they shot awesome just like every other arrow I had shot.


Same here!
And they said you couldn't get a 50# binary bow tuned to shoot 150 spine arrows LOL!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

One of the most accurate arrows I ever used was the Carbon Express CX200. I still have some. Cut shaft length, 25 3/4". Carbon Express insert (11 grs) and M&H or M&M 90 gr field point (actual 88 grs). Standard Carbon Express nock and 4" factory fletched and I say they are helical fletched. Total weight, 321 grs.
I shot them with my Ole War Horse, a 2000 Hoyt UltraTec with factory overdraw riser. Bow was set to 62 pounds with 29.0" draw.

These came in at the local box store and the sports clerk, a friend, called me. I bought all 3 dozen. I've never seen such again, but then never really looked or paid attention.


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

Here is Gillingham's explanation of spine from the gold tip website.
As far as stiffness goes, my personal opinion is that an arrow cannot really be too stiff. If you think of it rationally, a well tuned bow delivers the power stroke out of the jaw of the release and directly down the back of the arrow. Now with a finger shooter, spine becomes a critical factor as the arrow needs to be able to bend around the problem created by the finger release. I personally believe in tuning the bow and the archer to the arrow instead of tuning the arrow to the problem. By tuning the bow and the shooter you establish good nock travel and the power stroke of the bow going directly down the center of the arrow. A bow with good nock travel can shoot about any arrow you put through it, where a bow with bad nock travel will only shoot one arrow well as it has to bend around the problems the poor nock travel has created. These problems included oscilllation caused by the anchor point or the release, grip issues and tuning issues. One thing to remember with stiffer shafts though is not to run a tiny vane. You need the extra vane to gain control if a subpar shot is made and give you a forgiving setup.
The only exception to an arrow being too stiff is when you are shooting long distances 80-100 yards and you want to limit the drag on the arrow by using a small vane. In this case you need an arrow that will fly very stable as a bare shaft, at even 50-70 yards, to the point where you can add a small vane and it will do the rest of the stabilizing. In 3-d and hunting, however, we are typically ok shooting bigger vanes as the distances being shot are shorter and the drag effect is not a negative."


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Yeppers, I hear so much on the threads about spine and the more I shoot and learn to tune the less I care about it. I know that when I got my first 150 spine xxx shafts I knew they could shoot good because I watched pro shooters win with them all the time but i just thought something was wrong with that stiff spine but then I found that they shot awesome just like every other arrow I had shot.


Exactly!


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

EPLC said:


> I'm a little baffled by the way my "very" stiff Black Eagle X-Impacts are flying. *According to all the charts *and AA I'm way too stiff, yet the arrow seems to be flying just fine. Even the bare shaft flies like a pin out to 50 yard plus.-----


Whose charts? Looking at the Black Eagle charts, 500's are "just right" with the 120 gr points. They have everyone shooting a little stiffer.

http://www.blackeaglearrows.com/arrowsizingchart-a/254.htm


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> Whose charts? Looking at the Black Eagle charts, 500's are "just right" with the 120 gr points. They have everyone shooting a little stiffer.
> 
> http://www.blackeaglearrows.com/arrowsizingchart-a/254.htm


Glad you posted that, Carbon Express, Easton and AA have a different view.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Confirmed for 500s on Black Eagle chart and Carbon Express chart using the math and just the arrow chart.

Forget where I read it, but the jest was if a arrow has the right weight field point the arrow will follow the field point, making bare shaft tuning so much more easier. Too heavy and things can go astray. Beings you have such good results it well seems you've done your home work :thumbs_up


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

The Victory chart mimics the Black Eagle chart and their VAP shaft is basically the same shaft as the X-Impact. Apparently Black Eagle and Victory are marching to their own drummer. These shafts are really flying well in any case.


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