# PSE X-factor. Limb allignment slippage.



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

two guys I know well are having the same issues, Both post here so I won't rat them out


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## Mac Pointer (Mar 30, 2005)

**

As soon as the x-factor came out, I had many doubts. PSE makes great low and mid priced equipment. I don't care for their 'high-end' products.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

The riser is great. There just needs to be another type of locking mechanism. Perhaps a set screw attatched to the riser that goes into the allignment system to help the other locking screws take the load. My girlfriend loves the feel of the riser. It's just I, nor my coach want to set it and then have it slip out on her in a competition or before one or anything like that. I'm a competitive Olympic style archer and want to get quite competitive as time goes on. I know what it's like to deal with equipment problems. It's a great riser, just a bit of an annoyance. I know PSE will fix it up. I've also gotten a PM from a person who told me they and a few others have noticed it also. I'm sure PSE is on it. :smile:


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

*Easy Fix*

Me Too... I replaced the factory installed screws with new 1/4-28 set screws
and have not had any movement since. I think the limb adjustment method that PSE has is sound IF you put the effort into it.  

There are way too many good things to say about the X-Factor especially with no more elbow pain since switching to this riser. :smile: :smile: 


Stan


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

I had heard this as well. Me, personally, I have two X-Factor risers and have not had this happen yet. I'm very careful to make sure the first setscrews are tight before I tighten the locking setscrews. After all this talk, though, I have been keeping a close eye on them. No problems for me yet.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

ksarcher said:


> Me Too... I replaced the factory installed screws with new 1/4-28 set screws
> and have not had any movement since. I think the limb adjustment method that PSE has is sound IF you put the effort into it.
> 
> There are way too many good things to say about the X-Factor especially with no more elbow pain since switching to this riser. :smile: :smile:
> ...


That's a very good idea. I think I'll do that myself. I actually have not had problems with them. However, at this point I really dont want to either.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Me Too... I replaced the factory installed screws with new 1/4-28 set screws
> and have not had any movement since. I think the limb adjustment method that PSE has is sound IF you put the effort into it.
> 
> There are way too many good things to say about the X-Factor especially with no more elbow pain since switching to this riser. :smile: :smile:
> ...



I took a good 30-40 minutes setting it up the first time around. Taped the limbs and marked the center. Then went to work on alligning them until I felt they were perfect. Then tightened down the inner screws carefully and then checked the allignment again. The bottom limb was slightly different so I loosened it and then moved it back into place, did that a few times until I felt it was perfect. Then locked the inner screws down and then the outter ones afterwards. Then checked allignment again. I took my time and made sure I did it right.

My girlfriend trains hard. She and our coach are changing her technique slightly to make her an even better shooter then she already is. I don't want to have her confidence ruined over a silly equipment problem. If it were a sound situation and the limb allignment solid. This thread would be non exsistant. I have no issues with PSE. The X-factor is a hot riser, it shoots very very nicely because I've tried my girlfriends. But the limb allignment has got to be fixed in some manner to make it more solid.  :smile:


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

Which screws did you guys replace? The hollow ones (secondary, locking screws)??

In other words, did you use the regular setscrews as the primaries and then install a second set of regular setscrews on top of them instead of the hollow ones?


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Just wondering, but why are you constantly _changing_ her form?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Me? I don't change her form. Our coach does. We aren't constantly changing her form. I'd like to know where you got that from?  

She was in an accident where a Alberta Winter games bus she was on hit a car that went through a stop sign. The Lady in the car wasn't paying attention and luckily the bus driver was or the lady would have been toast. My girlfriend suffered whiplash and tears to muscles leading from her neck to her back. She had to get physio, chiropractic and massage therapy for months/years and is still slightly bothered by it. She just finally has the confidence in the strength of the muscles and area to change her technique. So it's being changed now. Not that it's any of your business. 

Why are you making stuff up? :thumbs_do 

Dylan


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Palmer,

I replaced the "outer" set screws with new solid 1/4-28 set screws in addition to the inside ones. The new screws have a flat surface rather than the dimpled version. 

Stan


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ks, i'll look into that.


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> Me? I don't change her form. Our coach does. We aren't constantly changing her form. I'd like to know where you got that from?
> 
> She was in an accident where a Alberta Winter games bus she was on hit a car that went through a stop sign. The Lady in the car wasn't paying attention and luckily the bus driver was or the lady would have been toast. My girlfriend suffered whiplash and tears to muscles leading from her neck to her back. She had to get physio, chiropractic and massage therapy for months/years and is still slightly bothered by it. She just finally has the confidence in the strength of the muscles and area to change her technique. So it's being changed now. Not that it's any of your business.
> 
> ...



The question was why you were changing her form. You are correct in that constantly was never mentioned.


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

I should have my "X" back next week and get some time to have Jim help me get it set up once and for all. I'm already planning on doing the very thing that KS mentioned.


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

Leighton said:


> The question was why you were changing her form. You are correct in that constantly was never mentioned.



"Measure twice, cut once" - works here too...


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

Hahaha


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Palmer,
> 
> I replaced the "outer" set screws with new solid 1/4-28 set screws in addition to the inside ones. The new screws have a flat surface rather than the dimpled version.
> 
> Stan



So you only replaced the outter locking screw? Where abouts did you get the flat based 1/4-28 set allen set screws?


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

Once again, check out my favorite toy store:

www.mcmaster.com

I swear they have everything.

:smile:


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

palmer said:


> I swear they have everything.
> 
> :smile:


I think your right. They even have the kitchen sink!  ~25 pages of them!

wait...

AHA! They don't have closet flanges!!!     :angry:


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> Why are you making stuff up? :thumbs_do
> 
> Dylan


It's what he does best. 

If only we all had perfect technique a-la Leighton.  :thumbs_do


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Thanks for being a dickhead Marcus. :thumbs_do

I'm sure you never make any mistakes.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Leighton. What exactly is your purpose on this thread? You haven't had any suggestions to do with the X-factor limb allignment. So why did you post? Not only did you take something from one of my posts to use as a reason to make an off topic post on this thread. You dishonestly expounded on what I posted and then you were called out and decided it was a mistake. If you are going to post on here, make it on topic. If you are going to quote something that I wrote, read carefully and specify exactly. Otherwise, don't. Nobody is perfect. So don't act that part. 

Dylan


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

Dylan,
If people would not deliberately insult me after I admitted I erred, I would have had nothing further to do with this thread. I made a mistake, mistaking slightly for constantly; I have no idea how I did that. If it means anything to you, I am sorry for making that mistake. As for my response to Marcus, I am sorry that I was provoked. And I am sorry that I am not a better person that can take verbal insults for what they are worth.

Leighton


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

There was no need for any of it. Lets try to keep this on topic. Yourself and Marcus can go at each other on another thread. I get along with Marcus. I am not the type to insult people, unless they provoke me. I agree in some ways with you Leighton. However, I still don't understand why you would pinpoint something such as technique on a thread that is about equipment. I know I mentioned it. But it wasn't the main topic. 

I don't want to have to put anyone on ignore. Everyone has something to offer in the way of info. So please Leighton, I know you aren't perfect. Not one person is. Like I said though, don't try to act the part.

Dylan


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Come-on kids, let's stop the personal attacks. :zip: :smile: 

Ditto on McMaster... Dylan, I replaced all of the factory installed set screws for the limb alignment. 


Stan


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I have a few Xfactors on the way. I can't get the Hoyts as fast as I need so I am interested in this matter-especially since one of our best archers has an xfactor from us (A hand picked one which was obtained from the PSE team leader after the Olympic trials) which has been having this problem. I haven't examined the Xfactor limb adjustment as carefully as I would like to do-my wife shot an intrepid for barebow all last year and I believe they are the same system-no problems with that but admittedly she is shooting light weight (30 pound limbs or so). It will be interesting to see what DK at PSE does to remedy what is apparently developed into a bigger than minor glitch in a well made riser


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

It's On Like Donkey Kong!


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Jim,

We may be over reacting to a very small problem that has more to do with the person making the adjustment than the adjustment design. We all have a degree of impatience with bow setup and exert little attention to the final step of making the "lockdown" in small steps (tighten each side with small torque steps). The outer set screw is the weakness of the PSE system in that it is just a ring screw that will allow the allen wrench to actually pass thru to the inner set screw thus adding torque to cause further movement of limb. 

I found that it was more reliable to remove the outer "lockdown" setscrew, make any limb adjustment, re-set the inner setscrews as described above and install the new solid lockdown screws. 

As long as I do not change limbs it should not be necessary to tinker with this again.

It is no where near the problems that I recall with the old Avalon limb alignment  

Stan :cocktail:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Leighton,

Clean it up, and grow up. Using that kind of language isn't appropriate and I think you know it (or at least you should).

Do yourself a favor and refrain from posting if you have nothing concrete or intelligent to offer, please.

I do think you have some good experience and knowledge to offer, but not about everything, so just use some discretion for goodness sake.

Regarding the X-factor,

I raised this very concern to David Kronengold several months ago. He has been busy working on a solution, and I can assure you whatever he comes up with will be more than adequate. He sent me a message just the other day saying he was getting close. As Jim noted, this same alignment system has been in use for some time now. This is a fairly recent development and I'm sure David will pinpoint the problem. It may in fact be as simple as replacing the set screws with solid ones. Too soon to say. 

John.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

ms. nichols doesnt' seem to be having a problem shooting it


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

p8ntballnryan said:


> ms. nichols doesnt' seem to be having a problem shooting it



Russian Hardware-its ugly but it works


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

SHH! :shade:


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*well*

Hey limbwalker... didn't I pose this same problem to you a while back? Ok I honestly forget the post, but does the 2513 or whatever arrow trick work here? 

Leighton, don't worry. Marcus has gotten on my nerves from time to time. A month ago, I would have (and in fact did, somewhat stupidly, to my shame) lash out at Marcus. In the end... it doesn't matter. Currently, I'm experiencing the best solution to people who irritate you: get a GF, get stalked by her ex (who in fact, almost killed her) and have him threaten to kill you and actively seek you out. Then those annoyances that once drove you nuts will seem like an amusing comic relief. 

Bright side is... I'm Engaged!!! But, as usual... I digress. 

BTW, sorry for being a real jerk a while back, Marcus.
BTW, I think you've got good form Leighton. Better than mine anyways.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

bsu_beginner said:


> Hey limbwalker... didn't I pose this same problem to you a while back? Ok I honestly forget the post, but does the 2513 or whatever arrow trick work here?
> 
> Leighton, don't worry. Marcus has gotten on my nerves from time to time. A month ago, I would have (and in fact did, somewhat stupidly, to my shame) lash out at Marcus. In the end... it doesn't matter. Currently, I'm experiencing the best solution to people who irritate you: get a GF, get stalked by her ex (who in fact, almost killed her) and have him threaten to kill you and actively seek you out. Then those annoyances that once drove you nuts will seem like an amusing comic relief.
> 
> ...


uh BSU two words to your problem

CARRY PERMIT or 
RESTRAINING ORDER


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*guns?*



Jim C said:


> uh BSU two words to your problem
> 
> CARRY PERMIT or
> RESTRAINING ORDER


KSarcher: its not a matter of preference. I think that this is actually a common and very big problem with your alignment. I recently redid the alignment (I used one of those laser levels) and actually, everyone around has told me my bow is a little bit quieter, and I'm not jerking around like crazy (although I can be a jerk from time to time). 


I don't shoot people. I'm not a pacifist... I've lived in Haiti enough to see people get shot and I'd prefer not do it. Besides... my bow is a lot quieter. 

Restraining order? Indiana, you actually have to be physically assaulted for that one. Not yet at least.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

bsu_beginner said:


> KSarcher: its not a matter of preference. I think that this is actually a common and very big problem with your alignment. I recently redid the alignment (I used one of those laser levels) and actually, everyone around has told me my bow is a little bit quieter, and I'm not jerking around like crazy (although I can be a jerk from time to time).
> 
> 
> I don't shoot people. I'm not a pacifist... I've lived in Haiti enough to see people get shot and I'd prefer not do it. Besides... my bow is a lot quieter.
> ...


 Understood, just telling you what I would do in your position


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

bsu and Jim,

As a former LEO, a restraining order is worth the cost of the paper it is printed on, nothing more. Go with the first suggestion.

Dave

PS: To make this more relavant to the topic, will someone post if they find out a solution has been adopted? I'm thinking about getting an X-Factor for indoor shooting but this thread is making me bide my time.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*thanks*

Oh btw... if its an issue of the screws coming loose, i think you can coat them in a little bowstring wax. I mean, its a temporary solution to a seemingly permanent problem, but it can't hurt. That's just an idea anyways. 

Jim, we did everything we can do. Katie's the one who's getting the protection. So that's really cool. As for me? hmmm... I'm asian and she's caucasion, all I can say is... 80 years ago, I'd be lynched in this state for what I'm doing. Do people really change? I'm getting older and I'm realizing how suprisingly little they do change.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*dave*

I've had a good indoor run with hoyt. I'd honestly suggest you go with that. I mean, I bought the X-factor before it became popular and everything and its served me well. Shot with an aerotec a while back and it was good. If I were you, I'd sit on my hands for a few. I mean, the x-factor is a new.. and very different riser and it takes a while to get the kinks out. I do applaud that you are making an educated descision about it. Have you shot with one yet? I would if I were you. 

Dave, you're right. I told the lady at the station "I've never seen a restraining order stop bullets." 

I think what's so frustrating is that last time he did this, I got too involved and almost got into trouble myself. i take a lasse fair approach and the next thing you know he threatens me directly. I can't win :sad:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Dave T said:


> bsu and Jim,
> 
> As a former LEO, a restraining order is worth the cost of the paper it is printed on, nothing more. Go with the first suggestion.
> 
> ...


good point Dave but if things get ugly and the stalker gets wasted, that he violated a restraining order can be useful if you have to defend yourself.

We don't know if the PSE issue is systemic or isolated incidents. I trust Dave Kronengold to rectify things either way


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

BSU,

That trick works on the X-factor also. String should just almost touch the arrow shaft...

John.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> BSU,
> 
> That trick works on the X-factor also. String should just almost touch the arrow shaft...
> 
> John.


And I used the string trick as well and it worked. A result to which I am imperatively grateful to you limbwalker. Now, much to my chagrin I have a 25 arrow that I have absolutely no use for... Ok I use it to prop up my bow as a "stand" since I'm too pathedic to actually purchase one.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*Jim and Dave*

This whole Mickey Mouse situation reminds me of something that Limbwalker said about dealing with the psychology of shooting. 

I can't exactly remember the post... but he was like "here's how you deal with nerves. Grow up, get a real job, get married and have 3 kids. Then those 'big' tournaments will seem like a vacation." 

Already, I've seen shooting really well... because I just don't care anymore. LOL. 

Advice to all married and dating men: if you have this happen to you... those things that drive you nuts about your spouse, the small stuff (like bad morning breath) I assure you, will seem like a really lame joke nature has played on the sexes... but nothing more.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Ditto on McMaster... Dylan, I replaced all of the factory installed set screws for the limb alignment. Stan



So inners and outters were replaced. Are the inner solid as well? This may just be the solution. We shall see. :smile:


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

> BTW, sorry for being a real jerk a while back, Marcus.


Don't worry about it, who am I to judge someone else, I'm as big a jerk as anyone. 


Regarding the X-Factor. Does anyone else share concerns that uneven wear on the inside of the dovetail of the limb could lead to limb alignment problems? On other risers the limb is secured from all sides, however on an X-Factor you are relying on the inside of the limb's dovetail being perfect, otherwise it will require constant checking. 
Could be a small issue, but could also be a point costing one. 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the better risers out there, just that one thing concerns me. 







Note to self, never stalk Jim C when I visit the US.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Marcus said:


> Don't worry about it, who am I to judge someone else, I'm as big a jerk as anyone.
> 
> 
> Regarding the X-Factor. Does anyone else share concerns that uneven wear on the inside of the dovetail of the limb could lead to limb alignment problems? On other risers the limb is secured from all sides, however on an X-Factor you are relying on the inside of the limb's dovetail being perfect, otherwise it will require constant checking.
> ...


Oh wow Marcus, you have truly outdone yourself this time!!! As a matter of fact, yes I currently AM sharing concerns about the wearing in the dovetail actually. I understand the reason behind doing it that way. Just stripping that baby down so you can actually put the weight where you want it. What you are highlighting here, Mr. Marcus, is a "cause and effect" problem. Cause: the limb-bolts do come lose and are not always straight (or in my case they came mis-aligned) Effect: due to misalignment and "wiggling" the dovetail does wear. In addition: the limb bushing on the top limb actually was slightly bigger than the bottom. Another cause and effect problem in and of itself.

But that is a superb observation. I'm actually very happy now because I thought I was the only one with that problem. And this has kept me from calling and confronting PSE concerning this because I'm assuming, they'd probably blow me off as a greenhorn.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

PSE has a life time warranty. These issues to do with the dovetail are really nothing to worry about at all. If there is a problem PSE will replace the product. If you pay shipping it will be done even faster. I know this because a fellow archer in Calgary had his riser replaced by PSE. It was done very quickly.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Don't worry about it, who am I to judge someone else, I'm as big a jerk as anyone.
> 
> 
> Regarding the X-Factor. Does anyone else share concerns that uneven wear on the inside of the dovetail of the limb could lead to limb alignment problems? On other risers the limb is secured from all sides, however on an X-Factor you are relying on the inside of the limb's dovetail being perfect, otherwise it will require constant checking.
> ...


don't sweat it Marcus-I only do people I get paid for   (just kidding-its a favorite line of mine from an old Hawaii Five-O: Willie: you gonna kill me too?" Hitman: "don't sweat it willie, I only do people I get paid for")

why would the Xfactor's wear be any different than other modern recurve risers? the pockets don't contain the limbs on the modern machined risers. Maybe I ought to look at an Xfactor and my matrix and sky and aurora risers when I comment again but going from memory I don't see much difference


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Marcus,

I guess I don't follow your logic. How would you get uneven wear, and how does any other riser prevent that from causing problems?

For all practical purposes, the X-factor holds a limb just like any other riser. The only difference is the part of the limb pocket that didn't do anything (and hasn't since back in the days of the radian) was removed to save weight. 

Oh, and don't worry about Jim. He knows how much paperwork would be involved if he had to shoot you 

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Marcus,
> 
> I guess I don't follow your logic. How would you get uneven wear, and how does any other riser prevent that from causing problems?
> 
> ...



LOL paperwork, we don't need no more stinkin paperwork.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

*Reading/Comprehension*

Dylan,

As I have stated 1 or 20 times, I replaced ALL factory set screws. 

Logic CAN be used by anyone other than Engineers and Vulcans.... :shade: 

Stan


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*Logic?*

Are we discussing linear or holistic logic? Sigh... 5 years of college and I leave, asking more stupider questions than when I went in. I need to purchase a whole keg of PBR. 

Limbwalker: you work for the government, you know all about paperwork don't you? :cocktail: 

Jim, well you certainly have a lot of... ahem... options to choose from if you plan to knock someone off. 

I'm not an engineer, but I think if one limb isn't fit in there perfectly and adjusted with the bolt... I would think, yes, there is a possibility that if the factory messed it all up, you could come out with a dovetail worn in one way and size and another worn somewhere else the wrong size.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Dylan,
> 
> As I have stated 1 or 20 times, I replaced ALL factory set screws.
> 
> ...


Yes Stan. The sentence in your first or second post on this thread is quite unclear to me. I understand you replaced all screws. But you still haven't answered if all of them are flat. Or the inner one's are still hollow and the outters flat. There are many types of screws out there with different bases. Once again.. are they all flat headed screws? From a logical standpoint?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> Palmer,
> 
> I replaced the "outer" set screws with new solid 1/4-28 set screws in addition to the inside ones. The new screws have a flat surface rather than the dimpled version.
> 
> Stan



This may have answered the question. Worded a little oddly. As I would have said. I replaced both the inner and outter set screws with new solid 1/4-28 screws. The new screws have a flat surface rather then the dimpled or hollowed version.

Dylan


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

For the record my concern wouldn't stop me buying an X-Factor. 

It may not be an issue at all. However on other risers the pockets support the whole limb and guide it into position. On the X-Factor it relies only on the centre section of the dovetail, which means for an exact fit that centre section must not wear down because there is nothing else to support the limbs.
Basically as bsu said. 

I do know that many top shooters modify their Hoyt risers to prevent similar issues. You couldn't do that on the X-Factor.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> For the record my concern wouldn't stop me buying an X-Factor


Ditto Marcus. 



> However on other risers the pockets support the whole limb and guide it into position


However, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. What kind of "support" do you mean? Exactly where do other risers touch the limb in a location other than the X-factor?



> I do know that many top shooters modify their Hoyt risers to prevent similar issues.


Okay, I'll bite. How? What are they doing? I haven't seen this. But maybe I wasn't looking closely enough. 

John.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Might help if you think about the limb pockets on a compound bow. 
On a compound the bow companies are putting ALOT of effort into making sure there is no movement of the limb while it is situated in the riser. 
On a recurve this is not the case. Hoyt did this with the Axis, but the market believed their IFL system was easier. 
When you have a system that relies on one part joining to another with ease, you will get some play between the parts. 
Now this may be a minor issue, however in my own playing aorund with recurve risers there is clearly some left-right play possible when the limb is attached. 
On some bows they have a tighter limb pocket and gives a much more secure and consistant fitting. 

I have played with a Hoyt Aerotec that has had new internals of the pocket machined to make them a more flush fitting. Makes the limbs more difficult to get in and out, but it's very very consistant with it's limb placement. 
I don't have pictures, but it made sense. 
Provides contact to the outsde of the dovetail as well as to the inside section. 

Of course all this could be totally pointless and amount to no extra points for the archer. 

Sorry if I am not making sense here.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Marcus said:


> Sorry if I am not making sense here.


No actually it does make sense. one of the reasons I still keep my Yamaha EX around is that the limbs will FIT no matter what. ILF is at best a suggestion to retailers so that everyone can keep their customers happy. Its like rules of war... suggestions with partial consequences (yes I went there). And sadly, to expand on your comments Marcus... I honestly believe the death knels of Yamaha were when they refused to go ILF. But that could be just me. I shot with it today and still love it. 

Andy


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

bsu_beginner said:


> No actually it does make sense. one of the reasons I still keep my Yamaha EX around is that the limbs will FIT no matter what. ILF is at best a suggestion to retailers so that everyone can keep their customers happy. Its like rules of war... suggestions with partial consequences (yes I went there). And sadly, to expand on your comments Marcus... I honestly believe the death knels of Yamaha were when they refused to go ILF. But that could be just me. I shot with it today and still love it.
> 
> Andy


same with the browning bows. nice bows good limbs but it was that darn weird lockup. At least on the sky you can sort of use ILF limbs (many do) and its easy enough to change the bushings. try that on the two yamahas I have. Furthermore you couldn't tweak the tiller on the yamaha with those shims like you can on a hoyt


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> On some bows they have a tighter limb pocket and gives a much more secure and consistant fitting.


You're saying "pocket" but really all you mean is the notch that catches the dovetail, correct? I mean, some are tighter than others, true, but the X-factor has a notch that catches the dovetail just like many others, and the only other thing the limb touches is the limb bolt (just like many others).

You're losing me at the "inside" and "outside" of the dovetail. I'm not sure what you mean by that.

If you look at Earl's SKY Conquest riser, he left the true dovetail for a "T" shaped fitting that was anchored in between two screws in the limb pocket. Those screws were set for proper alignment at the factory, I think, and were not adjustable. So, that was a case of a "dovetail" that had positive alignment not only at the riser notch, but also at the flange of the bushing.

I'd like to see Hoyt's new dovetail fitting. I'm sure it is better. I still prefer the Axis limb attachment system. Very hard to beat 

John.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*confuse*

Ok, now I'm confused. 

I think what people are refering to the dovetail is the part that the actual limb bushing is slid into. The pocket is something that the x-factor doesn't have. I actually like that part about about the hoyt bows. Slide that limb in and it isn't moving.

Oh btw... just for comparisions sake Jim. I shot both my yamaha and Pro elite limbs yesterday (on different bows of course) and honestly, the Yamaha limbs are so far superior (they are those custom limbs by yamaha). Its a shame that Yamaha actually stopped making archery stuff. Which is why I'll be holding onto these things till the day I die.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Are you guys talking about the limb fitting snug here? I believe this is what is being discussed. Lateral movement of the limb in the limb pocket where it exits the riser, which is actually best controlled where the limb sits on the limb pivot (I'm talking compound parts, due to my lack of recurve knowledge :secret: )

I had a problem on my daughters first target compound, and had to add some epoxy between the riser and the limb at the limb pivot. Simply greased the limb so it wouldn't stick in the epoxy, and eliminated the side movement. The "front" of the limb is limited in movement due to it self-centering on the limb bolt. :shade:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The pocket is something that the x-factor doesn't have. I actually like that part about about the hoyt bows. Slide that limb in and it isn't moving.


Again, I ask you to explain to me where a Hoyt riser touches the limb and the PSE doesn't. Please, I'm all ears. I might be a little dense, but I think I've got this one figured out.

John.


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm not following either. On the Axis I had, in order for the limb pocket to have provided any lateral support to the limb it would have had to move with the dowel alignment and it does not. As the alignment changed, so did the gap between the limb and the pocket walls. You could remove all the material and it would not matter since it does not contact the limb. That said, I do see where alignment systems like the Axis are less likely to have clearance between parts and limit any inaccuracies. BUT, if it were that big a deal I would have seen a drop in my scores when I sold the Axis, but I did not.

In all honesty, I think we're splitting hairs here. :teeth:


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## Leighton (Aug 24, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Again, I ask you to explain to me where a Hoyt riser touches the limb and the PSE doesn't. Please, I'm all ears. I might be a little dense, but I think I've got this one figured out.
> 
> John.


I don't know about hoyt, but the only areas where the limbs contact the riser is that big dowel, the hoyt dovetail mount and the very edge, ie the top and bottom of the riser.

Oops, forgot to mention my bow type!  W&W Exfeel.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Let me research more and see if I can come up with the right answer. 

I do agree it could well be splitting hairs.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

*???*

I just checked the following risers for limb fit and contact points of the limb to each...

1. PSE X-Factor. Dove tail slot & Limb Bolt.

2. W&W Infiniti. Dove tail slot & Limb bolt.

3. Martin Aurora. Dove tail slot & Limb Bolt.

4. Hoyt Avalon. Dove tail slot, limb bolt and slight rub on the side of limb pocket.
This depends on the limb. The Hoyt Carbon + does not center as well as the W&W Synerzy or Winact does. 

I too fail to see the concern with the X-Factor. The attachment for all risers are basically the same...


Stan


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ksarcher said:


> I just checked the following risers for limb fit and contact points of the limb to each...
> 
> 1. PSE X-Factor. Dove tail slot & Limb Bolt.
> 
> ...


 BTW I just got a spigarelli revolution today (just had to have one after playing around with one at the ATA-its not really expensive-you can get them from alternative in UK for 266-I got mine from LAS [we have a wholesale account].

It locks up just like the PSE-and the other spigarellis sans the "limb pocket"


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and slight rub on the side of limb pocket.


Mmmm, not good.

Jim, that Spig riser is interesting. However it just might be the ugliest riser since the Mathews, with the W&W Expert running a close second... 

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Mmmm, not good.
> 
> Jim, that Spig riser is interesting. However it just might be the ugliest riser since the Mathews, with the W&W Expert running a close second...
> 
> John.



its wickedly ugly-that's why I bought it. Plus I like Don Spigarelli. It wasn't expensive and I had some FX 42's that needed a home. I also might give it to a joad kid to shoot-just think of the wow points he will get from some kids  It doesn't look bad-I have one of those sydney sureloc RWB jobs sitting on one of the sydney RWB axis's (its slightly crooked and a wall hanger-the team got a cut from the proceeds and that's why I bought it) and it looks neat with that sight on it

will shoot it tomorrow and see how it works-the matrix and the MI's shot well today not to bad on my elbow.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*reminder*

I was shooting the last few days and I noticed that I just kept hitting to the right of the target. I thought about everything but the limb bolt. I adjusted the sight... didn't work... then I adjusted the plunger, still right. Finally, I looked and that allen thread... the screw end was breaking the surface of the side of the riser. Hey, to all those with x-factors... its a great riser... but please... every two shoots, inspect the bolts. I honestly believe that whoever raised this issue is onto something and your performance doesn't have to suffer because you didn't take him seriously.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*Oh yeah*

The reason i found out about the tiller was... well INKY can fill you in. On the aerotec, I do believe, the limb actually does "fit" into the pocket. I found that out the hard way. Oh, I'm refering to how hard it was to push in and push out my limbs on the aero tec riser. 

I could be wrong. But in all honestly, when I worked with that one top limb... even if the bushing was too big... I could have sworn the limbs were gently nudging the side of the limb pocket. They were a $^&% to get out. Could have been the bushing... and it could have also been partly limb too.


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

After reading, watching and messing with my own X-factors, I have found that there are different variables that can come into play. I left a bow strung for about a month and shot is several times a week and it did change slightly. I took it apart and let it rest and when I put it back together again it was back in line again. I found that I could slightly pivot one of the tiller bolts, and that in one position it was dead on and in another the string moved to sight window a bit. After tightening the adjustment screws on the one that would move slightly, it has been solid ever since. The screws create a friction point from the vibration and should be re-tightened from time to time because the set screw being steel and the block being aluminum, the set screw will win the wear battle that the vibration creates. Just my two cents worth.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Mike,
I always place a high value on your 2 cents!

Stan


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Perhaps they should make the block out of stainless steel then, machine divots into the block for postive contact between the screw and the block. Then when you lock things down, it isn't moving in any direction. The wear and tear will also be lessened.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I am really quite frustrated. I just recieved an email from my girlfriend. She is at Canada cup. Guess what. Her limb allignment has slipped again. After my coach and I took the lock screws out and adjusted the adjustment screws and then locked the adjustment screws making sure the limb center was proper then put the locking screws back in and locked them down making sure the allignment was centered.

This is pure garbage if you ask me. Instead of her building on her confidence and her technique and shooting how she is supposed to be shooting. She has to deal with crap like this. She's trying to qualify for Pan American championships and how is she supposed to do that if her equipment isn't there for her. 

The thing that dissapoints me the most. Myself and my coach suggested she go with the PSE X-factor over a Winact. I said the warranty would be better and the design is better compared to the Winact. Well, now I feel like eating my words. Something has to be done about this. It's bull. Simply bull. :angry:


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> It's bull. Simply bull. :angry:


If you and your girlfriend are really that unhappy then she should sell it. There is enough people interested in getting an x-factor that she should have no problem selling it.

Get the Winact.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Geoff, if the limb allignment system was a little more solid. The PSE would be a fine piece of KIT. But right now it's not. I've been informed that Dave K at PSE is trying to fix this problem. Having some sort of riser to allignment system lock would make the system better. I have made a suggestion about what I think should be done above. However I'm not an engineer. It would be nice to get a response from PSE about what is being done to fix the situation? Maybe they should send out some solid set screws. What ever the case may be. As an athelete and consumer my girlfriend deserves to get what she has paid for.

My girlfriend, our coach and I shouldn't have to look every day to make sure the limb to riser allignment is there. I can see having to tune it every so often. But when it's a continuous thing where we have to fear that it's going to slip on a daily basis, there is a flaw in the design.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

I agree sell it and buy a Samick.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

You guys are hilarious.    She just got the riser, why would she sell it. PSE should have some time to fix this problem (not alot of time, but some). If they think it's on the priority list for fixing. If they don't......


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

I sent my X back to PSE. When I got it back I couldn't see that anything had been done to it and the screws were all still loose. I reset the alignment and used blue loctite on the inner ones and teflon tape on the outer ones. So far so good.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*hey INKY*

First off... where on earth have you been? 
Second... how did you reset it?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

The thing is, X-factor owners shouldn't have to be fixing this problem on their own. This is a design problem that needs to be addressed by PSE. I've heard great things about Dave Kronengold. To bad Pete S the owner of the company doesn't give more notice to his Recurve line. 

I looked at the allignment system of the Ultra by Samick. The whole pocket moves in a similar fashion (adjustment screws) to what is being used to move the allignment system of the X-factor. The only difference. The pocket has a lock down screw. PSE's allignment system doesn't and I feel it should be incorporated into the system. I believe this would fix the problem. Maybe I am incorrect. But it seems more common sense to me then what they have now. 

When I first looked at the instructions for using the allignment system. I said, wow this is going to be easy. It looked simple and straight foward. But then I think about life. The easiest path is generally never the path one should follow. Easy paths lead to mediocre results. 

Dylan


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

bsu_beginner said:


> First off... where on earth have you been?
> Second... how did you reset it?


First - I've been extremely busy. Work is hectic again, I had committed (and paid $100) to play in a golf outing Friday, and the kids' ball schedules are full.

Second - Elementary, my dear Andy - I found an article on how to align an Avalon Plus, I think it was by Denise Parker, and applied to same concept to the X.

MAD - I agree and you only know the tip of the iceberg as far as PSE and recurves. I think David K. will get it figured out. In the meantime, we'll have to do what archers have always done - make it work somehow. I'm trying to cast spacers to lock each side but still be removeable.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*$100???*

for a golf outing? LOL save it towards some X-10's. 

I should tell you sometime about my last golf outing. 

Actually, more than one person has raised an eyebrow about the X-factor alignment. Can you forward that article to me? or as least scan and e-mail it?
Oh, did you ever finish the Agincourt article?


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

this thread is starting to worry me a little as i have 2 x-factors..i have been using them for more than 2 mos without any problems..they are both fitted with hoyt M1 limbs and have been kept continuously strung for the past two months as i shoot them both 3 to 4 times a week at least 36 arrows at each wt per session..i use the 34# limbs for 18m and the 38# for 30m which is the maximum distance at my backyard range..i hav been checking my alignment ever since this thread came out but it has remained the same...i hope merlin's is an isolated case.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

The case isn't isolated.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

merlin...have you tried posting your problem at the pse forum? they are at http://forums.pse-archery.com/...i would do it myself but it would be secondhand info at best and i may not get all the facts right..they may be able to help us x-factor owners.


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

I have 2 X-Factors, both of which have been shot quite alot. I've not had the limbs move on me yet. Why? I don't know, but absolutely no problems for me yet. I've checked the alignment quite a few times and they have not moved on me yet, and I've made several limb switches in there as well.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Vargas, anything you post on PSE's forum that isn't kissing up to PSE is usually deleted. I'm sure if I were to post a problem over there it would probably be treated with mob mentality. Maybe I am incorrect?

Palmer. I know of other incidents. One of which risers were returned until the problem is fixed. Now, knowing my girlfriends riser is not an isolated situation makes me wonder how many others are having problems. Maybe it's a matter of some being problematic over others? If thats the case then I want to know why and I want the problematic ones to be taken care of.

When you have to worry if your limbs are going to shift while you shoot during practice or a competition. It doesn't sit very well on the mind.

Dylan


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

Yes, I agree there is probably some common denominator with the risers that are problematic. Maybe type of setscrews, actual thread diameter of the tapped hole, etc. Who knows, I guess I've just been lucky.


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

MAD, do you know for sure what "the fix" was/is? Mine came back in the same condition as when it left. I don't want to base PSE as they've treated me very well and I like the X a lot. My latest attempt at securing the screws seems to have worked. I shot it in practice and shot a Double 900 with it and all is strill well.

Palmer, you just might be lucky indeed. There must be a common demoninator somewhere that can be identified and fixed. Maybe you tightened the srews enough and we didn't. I'm afraid of overtightening a screw and stripping the aluminum threads. It happened on my backweight hole.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I think it's just a matter of going with solid screws both innner and outter with a flat base. I don't see any more solid way to stop the allignment from shifting. So I am going to see about getting some ordered. Or seeing if there are any fastner places in this city that carry such a thing. If that fixes it. Then there will be no more issue. 


Dylan


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

The solid screws w/ flat-to-flat surface contact will probably help the situation a lot. Now, what can we do for my typing?


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

merlin..you can try to send a private message to the moderator..a lady named diane watson..i sent her a pm cuz the pse dealer in the philippines was having problems communicating with them and she responded pretty quickly..i think you're right about not posting it at the general forum..they also reply by private message if the issue is sensitive though..anyway good luck in fixing your gf's bow problem!!


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Dylan,

As mentioned in my post of the 13th of April, replacing the factory installed set screws (4) and the stop screws (4) with new 1/4-28s I have had no problems with alignment. 

I purchase the new set screws from a local hardware store (ACE Hardware).

Replace the set screws and forget about it.  :zip: 

Stan


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

Getting a snug fit is the key, IMHO. Although the sizes are standard, the screws from different manufacturers will be different sizes. Keep trying until you get some that fit well and stay tight.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

InKy

You are correct.. In fact I found 1 of the 4 holes to be under sized to the point that I had to use a 1/4-28 tap to chase the threads to be consistent with the other 3. It is not un-common that the anodize pre treat process will erode the tapped hole. In my case maybe only the one hole was not eroded...

Your theory of size difference also applies to the drill and tap bits being slightly different between manufacturers especially from country to country.
....


Dylan,
This is not an isolated case when it comes to incorrect fasteners or their proper fit. I have found similiar problem across many brands of bows. 

Let's not make it sound like the PSE X-Factor is a poor quality riser. 


Stan
:beer:


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I've always held to the fact that the X-factor is a fine riser. Fastners are definitely something that need to be addressed though.

Dylan


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## derekm (Feb 19, 2004)

Engineering reply--


Fastening into Alu alloy in an application that is subject to vibration is a common problem. Ist ensure that female thread and the male thread are close fit. Note fastener come in a variety of tolerances select one for close tolerance this ensures a greater area of contact. 2nd ensure the fasteners are tightened to a suitable torque setting using a low range torque wrench. To find a suitable value look for torque ranges used for a similar screw and thread in car & engineering manuals. 3rd use a thread locking compound of a strength suitable for the application - dont use full strength on small screws!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

My girlfriend is going to get new set screws for her riser tomorrow. Wondering If self locking 1/4-28 will be ok? Or the standard set screw a better idea?


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Dylan,

The "self locking" should work fine for the outside set screws. Advise her that the self locking screws may require more attention to not "cross thread" especially if the screws are a 1/4" or less in length. 

Most good hardware stores will stock the screws in lengths of 1/8" and up. Most of the self locking will be no shorter than 1/4" in length. The base will likely be the "cup" base style rather than the "flat". 

I believe that the real trick to getting the best chance of the limbs staying put is in the tightening of the inside screws. After the proper position is found the process of locking it down should involve tightening of the inside screws of the opposite side from that which brought the limbs into position. Be sure to check the limb alignment during this initial lockdown phase. ( I would bet that most cases of the assumed movement of limb position did in fact take place at this time rather than during shooting)   

Since changing my set screws and I have had no indication that the limb alignment has changed...


Good luck 

Stan
:thumbs_up :beer:


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I advised to go with normal flatted headed set screws all the way around. It just saves hassel.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Hay guys! No offense intended but this has gone on for over 100 posts and there is no indication that PSE even cares about it. Nobody's come up with a solution that seems to fix the problem for good. Maybe you should all consider buying a different riser?????

Dave


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

None taken. If you shot one, you'd know why we like it.  The "Dave's" at PSE are very busy. They probably don't have time to hang out here much. Kind of like GT at Hoyt. There are Olympic team archers shooting the riser so there can't be too much wrong with it. I don't mind the tinkering, once the problem was identified. They make LocTite for a reason. I had an 8 oz backweight on the bottom limb bolt, that may have contributed to the problem. I haven't had any movement since I put it back together with the LT and teflon tape. I may get some extra set screws just to have on hand but I don't think I'll need them.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*handle*

Actually... and other thing that annoys me is the flimsy handle keeps coming lose and I have to go in and redo the screw... anyone found this out as well?


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Dave T said:


> Hay guys! No offense intended but this has gone on for over 100 posts and there is no indication that PSE even cares about it. Nobody's come up with a solution that seems to fix the problem for good. Maybe you should all consider buying a different riser?????
> 
> Dave


Why would PSE do customer support on a site run by Martin?


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*cuz*

Cuz they might be desperate... or cuz maybe they are looking for any feedback from archery customers period. Cuz maybe this is one of the more visceral means of communicating customer complains when most people aren't in the mood to just call PSE and complain because they know most people there might not listen.

But who's to know? as you said... this site is run by Martin.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Let it die, please move on to another subject. There has been more than enough discussion on the subject. 

Stan


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

bsu_beginner said:


> Cuz they might be desperate...


Desperate? They charge a premium. Not only are they not desperate but they can charge extra because they didn't make enough of them and people want to buy!



bsu_beginner said:


> or cuz maybe they are looking for any feedback from archery customers period.


Why would they worry about feedback from an internet discussion forum, a communication medium known for being filled with people who don't really know what they are talking about, especially when they are working directly with some of the best archers in the country.



bsu_beginner said:


> Cuz maybe this is one of the more visceral means of communicating customer complains when most people aren't in the mood to just call PSE and complain because they know most people there might not listen.


Maybe because it is easier to flame a product as junk on a discussion form than when you are talking directly to someone over the phone. The internet makes you feel anonymous so you can says things to people you would never say to their faces.



ksarcher said:


> Let it die, please move on to another subject. There has been more than enough discussion on the subject.


'k

So start one.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

baldmountain said:


> Why would PSE do customer support on a site run by Martin?


Geoff, I wouldn't expect PSE to come on Martin's web site, but I would have thought some where along the way they might have said to a customer, "We recognize the problem and here is what we will/can do about it." and that would have been reported here by said customer.

I visited the PSE ProShop several times when I lived in Tucson. Trust me, they don't give a crap about recurves or recurve shooters. Yea, I know there are supposed to be a couple guys in the back room designing and working on recurves but the rest of the company's mind set is WHEELS - period!

My only other point was that nothing is being accomplished by this thread. I guess maybe those of you with the problem need someplace to vent. OK, vent away and I'll stop reading this one. Like I said, no offense intended.

Dave


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Dave T said:


> Geoff, I wouldn't expect PSE to come on Martin's web site, but I would have thought some where along the way they might have said to a customer, "We recognize the problem and here is what we will/can do about it." and that would have been reported here by said customer.
> 
> I visited the PSE ProShop several times when I lived in Tucson. Trust me, they don't give a crap about recurves or recurve shooters. Yea, I know there are supposed to be a couple guys in the back room designing and working on recurves but the rest of the company's mind set is WHEELS - period!
> 
> ...


LOL, no offense taken Dave. I mean, I think its just that when you shell out the $$$ for it, you'd expect nothing to go wrong with it. Which at times is why we have forgotten Newton's 3rd law of thermal dynamics. But honestly, it is ironic that one of its stregnths is also one of its weaknesses. 

On the other hand it makes one cool bow... and its definetely worth checking out.


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

MerlinApexDylan and bsu archer, 

If you are having a problem with your girlfriends X-Factor or your X-Factor, please feel free to contact us in several differant manners. 

1. Through phone at 520-884-9065

2. Through email at [email protected]

3. [email protected] 

4. Or you may visit our forum at www.pse-archery.com and just click on the message board. I can assure you that we do not just delete threads for no reason.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Diane Watson said:


> If you are having a problem with your girlfriends X-Factor or your X-Factor, please feel free to contact us in several differant manners.


I stand corrected. The folks from PSE will reply on a board run by Martin.

:thumbs_up


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## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

Yes, we will


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## dr t (May 15, 2004)

bsu_beginner said:


> "Which at times is why we have forgotten Newton's 3rd law of thermal dynamics."


Help! Please refresh my memory on this law.


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

Isn't that the one that states something like "If you play with matches you'll wet the bed"?


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## Brick (Jul 23, 2004)

dr t said:


> Help! Please refresh my memory on this law.


The British scientist and author C.P. Snow had an excellent way of remembering the three laws:

1. You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).

2. You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

3. You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

Are you saying that my mother lied to me and I'm lying to my son?


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

*basically*

basically newton mentioned that the third law was about how you live in a state of degeneration unless you opt to clean up its act. Live in a natural state and you're screwed. All things degenerate or wear out. 

Diane, Thanks. Do I get to send it back for a professional realignment touch up job?


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## dr t (May 15, 2004)

bsu_beginner said:


> basically newton mentioned that the third law was about how you live in a state of degeneration unless you opt to clean up its act. Live in a natural state and you're screwed. All things degenerate or wear out.


  Sorry for jerking your chain since your major at BSU is obviously not physics or engineering, but I do happen to own an X-factor I was trying to figure which Newtonian concept was about to cause me problems here.  FYI, Newton's third law states that the force exerted on one body by another is equal and opposite the force exerted by the second body on the first. Also I think he had been dead for nearly 180 years when Nernst postulated a heat theorem that later became known as the third law of thermodynamics which by the way has nothing to do with things turning to crap either. So maybe it is Murphy's law that applies to my X-factor??


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Diane Watson said:


> MerlinApexDylan and bsu archer,
> 
> If you are having a problem with your girlfriends X-Factor or your X-Factor, please feel free to contact us in several differant manners.
> 
> ...


Talking about the problem isn't going to fix it. Action needs to be taken. This is nothing against PSE or yourself. But I believe the flat based set screws mentioned on this thread are the only fix that will suffice for the time being. Maybe they are the permanent fix and perhaps the designers of the limb allignment system can take that into future consideration.

With the hollow screws it's easy to understand what the problem is. Less surface area's touching means less friction and friction is what's holding the screws in place as well as the allignment system. It's easy to gather where a flat based screw would be much better.

It's my girlfriends X-factor. She is training and competing right now and has no time to send it back to PSE.

Thanks for your time however. 

Dylan


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> It's my girlfriends X-factor. She is training and competing right now and has no time to send it back to PSE.


She didn't say send it back. She said to call. So give them a call.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

They haven't given any answers to some people that are higher on the list then me when it comes to recieving info. I doubt they will have anymore to say to me then "we are working on it". We have an Engineer on here saying go with flat based screws. I think I will listen to him and fix the problem now rather then spending the money on long distance to call PSE and get an answer I already know is coming.


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## dr t (May 15, 2004)

I hate to sound sarcastic, but you start a thread on a competing company's forum complaining about a product which a lot of us own and are quite pleased with, then when the manufacturer responds with an offer to discuss your problem and gives you a name, a phone number, and an e-mail address to contact, your response is that you don't want to spend money to call them because you already know their answer? She also gave you an e-mail address which costs nothing. Why don't you at least give them a chance, and then let us know what they say instead offering us your speculations? What are you afraid of? Looks to me like you are aiming a bit low.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

dr t,

MAD has lost all credibility on this one. He doesn't want to solve the problem, he just wants to whine.

A moderator should close this thread. It is going no where.

Dave


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Right.... If you read back on this thread. It was stated by a person named Stan who I presume is an engineer that he replaced the hollow set screws with flat based screws and it solved the problem of the allignment slippage.

I have been in contact with a person through PM that has said there is no definite time limit on when the problem will be fixed if infact it's high enough on the priority list. This person is in direct contact with Dave K. 

So, if different flat based screws are fixing the problem as stated by Stan who is an Engineer. I feel he knows what he is talking about and will take his advice.

As for credibilty. Who are you to judge how I should take action on this matter. The riser is not mine. It's my girlfriends. I came on here to find a fix and to bring attention to the problem. 

There are others who seem to agree with me, that have a high amount of credibility on these forums as well as in US archery.

Now, lets stop this where it is.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I've sent Ms Watson an email if that makes you happy.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

For all who asked. Since I recieved an email from Diane Watson and it wasn't what I would call personal. Here are the results of my questions.

Dylan,

Thank you for contacting us in regards to your girlfriend's X-Factor problem.

Part of the problem is that our instruction manual is a bit unclear. People need to set the alignment and then tighten the screws from both sides more so the point of the screw grabs the aluminum. We have not seen a problem with the risers across the board, because some users are tightening the screws tighter than others. But we are taking the problem under advisement and our engineering department is working on finding the optimal solution for this-flat head screws, oval points, etc. In the meantime, if you replace the screws with flat point screws it MAY solve the issue. It is possible that they will allow the system to cinch better. However, it seems like people want to be gentle with the system so we are looking for a screw and block solution that allows this to happen. Engineering has produced several prototypes to test but have not found what we consider to be an ideal solution.


Diane Watson 


So, they are working on it. For now, flats based screws and making sure the screws are locked down tight seems to be the answer.


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## derekm (Feb 19, 2004)

MerlinApexDylan said:


> For all who asked. Since I recieved an email from Diane Watson and it wasn't what I would call personal. Here are the results of my questions.
> 
> Dylan,
> 
> ...


hollow screws = hexagonal key grub screws?
flats based screws = grub screws which use a flat bladed screw driver?

find a fastener you can use 1/4 " hexagonal drive bit for and use a torque wrench with a 1/4 hexagonal drive adapter.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Flat based as in Flat bottomed Hex set screw. Rather then hollow hex set screw.


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## npk (Mar 3, 2003)

*Has PSE fix the problem?*

Dylan,

Has PSE solved the problem?

I have a BRAND new Interpid, sent back to PSE (I am from Malaysia) because limbs could not locate properly. They claimed that it was due to "stacked tolerance". They enlarge the dovetail dimple/depression. Now the limbs can be located but alignement is out and limbs are NOT fully seated into the pockets(causing BH problem).

Think because of the distance between USA and Malaysia. PSE refuse to look at the problem anymore. (They also lost one of the limb bolt and mounting block).

I just wonder what is going on with PSE.Used to be a company with A1 customer service and excellent products.

NPK


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