# 90 meter group size



## RavinHood (Sep 17, 2015)

it wouldnt surprise me if it wasnt even smaller then that 

I just watch a guy shoot smaller then a 10" group with a regular recurve bare bow.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

AXE6Hunter said:


> it wouldnt surprise me if it wasnt even smaller then that
> 
> I just watch a guy shoot smaller then a 10" group with a regular recurve bare bow.


A ten inch group at a hundred yards? Barebow? I don't doubt your veracity but that's very hard to believe. Most rifleman cant hold a ten inch group offhand with a rifle at one hundred yards.


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## RavinHood (Sep 17, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> A ten inch group at a hundred yards? Barebow? I don't doubt your veracity but that's very hard to believe. Most rifleman cant hold a ten inch group offhand with a rifle at one hundred yards.


Well I'll rephrase he kept all 5 arrows in the yellow 


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

I've seen top archers stay in gold at 90 meters without a problem. That's about 9.5 inches.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

BobCo19-65 said:


> I've seen top archers stay in gold at 90 meters without a problem. That's about 9.5 inches.


This is what I was looking for. A witness to an Oly shooter on a good day at 90meters. Thanks. That's amazing to behold when you look at the target almost 100 yards away.


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## RavinHood (Sep 17, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> This is what I was looking for. A witness to an Oly shooter on a good day at 90meters. Thanks. That's amazing to behold when you look at the target almost 100 yards away.


I said 10 inches 


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

AXE, you said a man shooting barebow shot a ten inch group. That means no stabilizers and no sights. Mechanically possible but very hard to imagine for me. The Oly shooter has a full stab and sights. It really helps. I don't doubt you witnessed what you saw. I just find it outside of my experience and I've been around a lot of very good barebow field archery shooters. Some of our shots are at 80 yards. A few. Most are under 50. Most barebow men will struggle to stay on the 122cm target at 100 yards.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Keeshond said:


> AXE, you said a man shooting barebow shot a ten inch group. That means no stabilizers and no sights. Mechanically possible but very hard to imagine for me. The Oly shooter has a full stab and sights. It really helps. I don't doubt you witnessed what you saw. I just find it outside of my experience and I've been around a lot of very good barebow field archery shooters. Some of our shots are at 80 yards. A few. Most are under 50. Most barebow men will struggle to stay on the 122cm target at 100 yards.


I've seen barebow archers hold their own at 70m round, shooting in olympic recurve category in a regular competition. But those were pretty much some of the best around, having medaled at World Fields. The scores were good, but not really top class recurve scores. I've never seen any barebower even try to shoot 90m properly, it is pretty ridiculous even to try to aim anything past 70m with three under barebow anchor.

Now to get back to original issue. 300ish score will mean staying pretty close to eight ring, so 40cm ish with couple of strayers. Better than that you need to be pretty good, 320+ will mean staying mostly in yellow, so 25cm ish plus a stray arrow every now and then.


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## nakedape (Sep 28, 2015)

1:31 :smile:


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## nakedape (Sep 28, 2015)

70 & 90m


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Jimmy is a great shooter but the video only showed one shot at 90 meters. I bet it wasn't his only effort to get a hit on video. I was interested in what an Oly rig with sights shot by a current world-class archer could do with repeated shots for group size. Edited videos of a good single shot are not representative. They are fun to watch, however.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

That's best group I've personally shot from 90m:









But I've never been a "world-class" shooter, my best practice scores have been somewhere around a bit over 310. But WR is 342, so 57 average, which would give groups about 1.5x size of that (without the stray arrow).


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

zal, I couldn't do what you just showed with a .22 rifle. Maybe you're not world class, but that's a world class group and what I wanted to see. Thanks.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Keeshond said:


> zal, I couldn't do what you just showed with a .22 rifle. Maybe you're not world class, but that's a world class group and what I wanted to see. Thanks.


Luckily the next set was 47 IIRC, to bring me crashing down to earth


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I shoot WA barebow at 70m with Oly shooters and am pretty satisfied when I keep all arrows on the target and can score all of them. It is still a fairly remarkable feat given all the doodads the Oly shooters are sporting.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

j.conner, I think it's otherworldy that a human can consistently put arrows inside of 12" from a football field away no matter what kind of recurve, or compound, they are shooting. To simply be able to hold that steady outside is remarkable. One tiny twitch and you toss a shot 6 inches in a bad direction ruining the group. Any moderate flinch and you're lucky to hit the target. I think grouping in the yellow at 90 meters is the hardest thing to do in solo sports.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Well, ask John Kruk about trying to hit a 100mph fastball. It takes skill to group at 90m. It takes unbelievable hand eye coordination to hit a baseball at the MLB level.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Well, ask John Kruk about trying to hit a 100mph fastball. It takes skill to group at 90m. It takes unbelievable hand eye coordination to hit a baseball at the MLB level.


There are a thousand men in Major League Baseball. All can hit because they wouldn't be there if they couldn't - save for pitchers. I doubt there are 200 men on earth who can put place all their shots inside 10 inches on demand at 100 yards. I played college baseball at Boston College in the 70s. I've faced pitching in the mid 90s. I think archery is harder. Just my view.

BTW. Fastballs are pretty easy to time, it's the off speed stuff that sent guys like me looking for real jobs as adults. LOL No kidding, a fastball you know is coming is like hitting off a tee. But mix in off speed junk and you can look very foolish.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

The uk record for recurve 90m is 329 giving an average arrow value of 9.13 however as thats an average i think it would be fair to say there were a few 8's so that would be a grouping of approximately 15"

For comparison the barebow record is 246 giving an average arrow value of 6.8, so a fair few blues and probably some blacks.
This group would be considerably bigger than 15".


I think anybody grouping 20" at 90m with a recurve is an exceptional archer, 15" and under and you're on your way to Tokyo.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

It all depends on how you define "group". Some people pick their best end of 6 arrows they have ever shot and call that their group. Not being honest to themselves.

Shoot a full distance under competition conditions and measure across your widest outliers, and that's your true "group". Most people won't admit it.

I don't recall ever shooting a full 36 arrow 90m competition round recurve without at least 1 in the blue, so my _honest_ group at best was probably 22". I did shoot some all gold with a compound, so best grouping, just under 10".


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've shot honest 24" groups at 90m barebow, but with maybe 5% of the arrows landing outside that.

I also shoot rimfire silhouette and hold about a 5" group at 100m freestanding.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Keeshond...If a "Rifleman" cant keep groups inside of 10" at 100 yards offhand, then he needs a better Rifle, or we need a different term for the shooter of the rifle...????.....Jim


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Harperman said:


> Keeshond...If a "Rifleman" cant keep groups inside of 10" at 100 yards offhand, then he needs a better Rifle, or we need a different term for the shooter of the rifle...????.....Jim


Back when I was in the army, our "golden marksman badge" required 11 out of 12 shots to hit target with 5cm 10 ring. 6 at 150m prone, 2 shot bursts, 3 at 150m kneeling and 3 at 50m standing. Mind you, I was a lot better marksman than I was an archer at the time, but the prone and kneeling with a bow would've been a bit problematic, with rifle, not much  300m gold badge test was a bit trickier.

But to get back to point. When you see what kind of groups top Korean dudes used to shoot before FITA was removed from World Champs, you'd be awed. Although I was fairly sure that Jang Yong Ho's 337 would never been broken considering even that means staying in the gold. Funnily, I always felt most comfortable at 90m, and my target panic was best in control at that distance. Probably simply because when I was shooting with open ring, I could see a LOT of background between the ring and the target face.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I am probably just an average barebow shooter. Last month I shot a 178 at 90m with 3 misses. I don't practice 90m because it is rarely shot anymore. I am mainly a field shooter so most of my work is focused on 60 yards and shorter. The 70, 77, 80, and 101 yard distances only get enough attention to work on gaps to just hit the target for score. total points for those distances as compared to all of the other points in the field shoots doesn't justify sacrificing the time needed for developing the shorter distance work.

For the 1440 round last month, I spent about 12 hours of practicing over 2 weeks trying to learn string walking, shooting split finger (I normally shoot 3 under), and trying to find an anchor on the face for 70m and 90m. I had it figured out (more or less) 3 days before the shoot. Then went for it. I figure, if this was a major format that is shot all the time, i would practice it all the time since 90m would be 25% of the score. Then it would be worth the effort to perfect it.

But it is a lot of fun to shoot 90 meters. Its actually quite relaxing. Weird.

When I was in the Marines (30 years ago) hitting the 5 ring was a no brainer at 200, 300, and 500 meters. Company high shooter for 8 years straight. Then I was given a wonder humbling gift. I was invited to try out for the USMC rifle team. Those guys made me look like a rank amateur, they were shooting 5" groups at 500m. All with a stock m16, iron sights and stock ammo. That tryout week was absolutely wonderful. It is always awesome to shoot with the best of the best.

Pete


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## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Slightly OT: back when we shot full FITAs in one day for ranking at USAT events it often felt more difficult to shoot well at 50 meters than it did at 90 meters. At 90 meters you were always fresh and since it was early in the day, the wind was likely to be calmer. By the time we got to 50 meters you had a smaller target, 84-90 shots including the practice ends, and by mid day the sun and wind would be in full force.


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## Evensteve67 (Aug 17, 2016)

nakedape said:


> 1:31 :smile:


That was cool, especially with that wind. But.....how many practice shots?


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

For a period through roughly 2013, at least some of the USAT series were FITAs. I tend to feel it's useful to me to see a full rank of everyone at a tournament, good archers and less good, gives you an idea where you fit, particularly if you're interested in trying it.

http://ianseo.net/TourData/2013/388/IQRM.php
http://ianseo.net/TourData/2013/405/IQRM.php
http://ianseo.net/TourData/2013/380/IQRM.php
http://ianseo.net/TourData/2013/373/IQRM.php

It looks to me like on a good day perhaps later in the season, approaching 320, on a bad day perhaps with wind or early in the season, closer to 300, for our best national level archers. I'd assume a world class version of this would cluster around our elite, most below, maybe a few above. But this is just me reading numbers I am sure the people who did it for a living have more informed experienced opinions.


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## Evensteve67 (Aug 17, 2016)

nakedape said:


> 1:31 :smile:


That was cool, especially with that wind. But.....how many practice shots?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

310 is a world class 90-meter score. You can deduce the group size from that. Avg. per arrow score is 8.61 which is about an 11-12" group at 90 meters, over and over again, usually with some wind.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I've been told that 90meters was the great separator - that whoever could get a decent lead at 90meters almost invariably won that competition. And that one of the few exceptions to that rule of thumb was Rick McKinney, who was "so good at 70/50/30 that he could spot other world class archers 20-30 points at 90meters and still run them down."


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## cekkmt (Nov 29, 2013)

Back to the original question about what is possible under optimal conditions, not what would be considered "world class", Oh Jin Hyek shot a 342 at 90 meters at the Ulsan 2009 WAC (listed as the current world record on WA). That's a 9.5 average arrow so roughly a 7-10 inch group.


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> 310 is a world class 90-meter score. You can deduce the group size from that. Avg. per arrow score is 8.61 which is about an 11-12" group at 90 meters, over and over again, usually with some wind.



I think that is good for 100% of the arrows shot. But I think the question was the group size of 90%.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Keeshond said:


> I don't shoot 70 or 90 meter Olympic recurve. Have never shot for group past 60 meters and that shooting barebow. I've never witnessed a world-class shooter grouping at a full 90 meters using an Olympic bow. (sights)
> 
> My question is this: Under ideal conditions, with no wind, how tight a group can the best Olympic-class shooters group with 90% of their arrows at 90 meters on their best days? I'm guessing about 12-15 MOA or a 12 to 15 inch group?
> 
> Have always wondered about this.


Yes, 90% was the original question. Why 90%, I don't know but hey, it's not my question. LOL.

Plenty of real-world data out there if one chooses to find it.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

I am a barebow archer and I can stay pretty easy within the red almost all the time (some might slip out) on a good day on 70m. 70m is nice when you are in the flow, gets a true challenge if something gets a bit stiff in the form, but it stays manageable. 90m is a TOTALLY different story however. I sometimes miss the whole target while still feeling I shot pretty ok. One round can be pretty decent at times, but then I miss 3 out of 6 the next turn... On that distance, the lack of clicker makes a huge difference. Any decent archer can shoot all in the yellow one or two times with a bit of luck even on 90m, even if it is pretty rare compared to 70m. But to call it a "group" is not fair. To state that you have a certain group size, you need to look over a period of time and many arrows, like atleast a full 36 arrow round. If I had a bit of luck and you took a look at me shooting at the right moment, I probably would impress you with a nice group on 90m. But if you arrived just a few minutes later, seeing me shoot the next round, you would for sure not ask me to date your daughter hoping for an archery master offspring anymore  I have yet not seen any barebow that can keep a good group more or less constantly on 90m. 

I´ve shot a full WA 1440 round backwards distance-wise once and that really showed how big the differences gets on longer distances between an average archer, an elite archer, and a world class elite archer. I was shooting olympic recurve (in which I am at best average) and was on the same face as one close to national team italian archer and one olympic italian archer. We started on 30m to my delight, and I could to my surprise upset the two italians. I was in the lead with a few points with 352 after 36 arrows, while the italians probably had a bad day and 350 and 349. On 50m, the italians cought up speed and shot 12 and 15 points more than me. Still ok. 70m resulted in a 25 point difference. At 90m it was 70-80 points of difference to me, and almost 30 points difference between the italians. There you could really see the difference between olympic elite, elite and even more down to my level. I felt I shot at about the same shot quality wise all the way, but to keep the arrows tight on 90m and really produce points there, you really need to be a truly skilled world class archer. 310+ is excellent. 330+ is insane. Starting with 30m was a lot more fun than shooting the other way with 90m first btw. When you start with 90m, most of the competition is already decided after 36 arrows.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Thanks, Martin. I understand all archers of all levels have good and bad days. When I posed the question I did say 90% of your arrows because I was willing to toss out a few bad shots within a long string of 36. No other reason than that. Thanks for all who answered with real world experience. I really had not idea that men could group inside of 10 inches at 90meters/100 yards. That's 9 MOA (or better) with a recurve bow. Very hard to imagine for me.


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