# Fishtailing arrows



## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

I am hoping you guys can help me out. I just got another new bow last friday, and while extremely accurate, my arrows are fishtailing on the way to the target. No vertical oscillation, only horizontal movement. The arrows always hit the point of aim (wherever my shaky pin settles), but at 10 yards all are stuck into the target nock-right by about 10 or 15 degrees, and at 20 yards nock-left by the same amount. They seem to straighten out somewhat by 30 and 40 yards, but the fishtailing is clearly visible with the added flight time. Bare shafts hit about 1 foot straight left at 30 degrees from 20 yards. Shooting 100 gr. field points currently, tried a couple with 75 gr. field points (to hopefully change spine a little bit) and they act exactly the same except for hitting slightly higher when shot at 30 and 40 yards. I tried adjusting the rest slightly in both directions (left and right only) with no different results. Here's my setup:

2011 Quest Primal (RH 70#)
Ripcord code red
Trophy ridge stabilizer
Carbon express terminator lite hunter 60/75 shafts cut at 29 1/2 inches
FOBS (tried a couple with blazers too tonight with the same outcome)
100 grain field points
And I always shoot with my bow hand open to hopefully minimize torque

Do you guys think I've got an arrow spine problem or a rest/tuning problem? Or maybe something else?:dontknow: So far I have been extremely happy with this new bow, killed my first ever archery buck Sunday evening with it. Like I said earlier, it shoots very accurately to the point of aim, I just don't like watching the arrows fishtail, not to mention how the bare shafts are flying. My old bow (2010 Quest Hammer set up exactly as above) shot these exact arrows like darts, I only wanted to upgrade bows because of the nicer draw (with stops) the added speed and longer cable life. The single cam bow was hard on cables when shot 100 times per night. 

Sorry for the long post but I can't expect good replies without providing good background info...


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## kings child (Nov 21, 2008)

You have a stiff arrow according to most books . The tail right tear is showing a stiff spine arrow if your arrow is perfactly in line with your bow string and cams. You need to go up in point weight or increase bow weight. After this shoot a bare shaft through paper, starting at 6ft and work back to 10 yards. If you are shooting a bullet hole (no more that a 1/4" tear through the paper nock high) you should not see nothing but nock going away from you when you shoot. Do not open your hand when you shoot but let your fingers rest on the bow when you shoot because you could be flapping the bow riser without even realizing it. I shoot with three fingers tucked into my palm and only my left index finger and middle of my thum resting on the riser. Learn to shoot like this and you will not input torque on the bow.


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

Ok, thanks kings child. Currently the limb bolts are backed out one full turn, so that's an easy one to try. As for point weight, I can make the trip to town tomorrow and pickup some 125's to try as well. They're cheap enough too! My fingers normally just touch the front of the grip when shooting, my hand is not "locked" open, just relaxed. Is that good enough? I will certainly try your grip method as well though.


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

M-Haywood
IMy grip is very much like Kings Childs, but I only tuck two fingers and letmy middle and index rest on the front of the riser. Give both a try and see what you like. Somehow I don't think it's your grip, but could be. You said your bare shaft hit 1 ft. left @20 yrds, that's the key. Try walk back tuning starting at 20 yrds and then move back in 10 yrd incriments to your extream (40 yrds should do it). Also, you said it was a new bow, have you checked for cam and idler lean, timing? Walk back will only fix horizontal adjustments. I Fixed blade BH tune the same way for vertical and to fine tune horizontal. Good luck.

Ches.


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks ches. I am not very familiar with walk back tuning, could you or someone please post a quick how to? (Maybe that's what I'm already doing but just don't know what to call it) That would be appreciated!!


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

Shot 60 plus arrows tonight after adjusting limb bolts all the way in. Tried the grip thing, that helped shrink my 40 yard 5 arrow groups to under 3 inches, which is great!:thumbs_up But didn't notice much of a change in arrow fishtailing yet. Still need to try heavier field points to see if that changes anything. Any more suggestions guys?


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

M-Hayward
Look at the sticky on top of this or the general section by Nuts & Bolts. He gives a very simple explanation. What you do is use the same pin for all distances, start shooting 3 arrows at 20 yards, then 3 at 30 and 3 at 40 (remember, use the same pin and target spot). Your arrows should drop but should all line up vertical. If they start moving to the left as you get further back, then you need to move your rest to the right (but only a little bit). Once you get that done, pull out a couple fixed blade boradheads, make sure you at least spin test them on your finger to see if they are straight. At 20 yards, shoot the FB BH and FP at a dot and see it they both hit the same point or at least close. If the FB BH hit's high, you need to lower your rest or raise your nock point, but very very little. 1/64 can move a FB BH 4" or more. If the FB BH is to the left, move the rest right, again, very very little moves. Once 20 yrds is right, move to 30 then 40. Once grouping FP & FB bH's at 40, your 20 will be even closer. I do this out to 60 but at 60, my grouping starts to wander. I use Thunderheads for this, you don't want too small of a head when doing this tuning, you want a head that will pick up the air to show you if you are off or not. I even did this when I used to shoot mechanicals, just ended up with a better tuned bow IMO. Good luck

Ches


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I've tried the CX Terminators. I seriously doubt 125 gr field points will change anything. I'd say center shot is off just a tad one way or the other. Otherwise, you have some good info in the replies.


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks a lot for the input gents! I had to work late tonight so I didn't have time to shoot. I will try these suggestions as soon as I can and will post results (or more dumb questions). Thanks again!


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

Wow, read thru part of the Nuts & Bolts sticky..... The bowtech guy said it perfectly "I am realizing the depth of my ignorance about bow tuning" That is the best thread I have seen here on AT!


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

Shot another 100 plus arrows today. Went through the procedure for walk back tuning at least 10 times, and believe it or not I did not have to adjust my rest or sight pin. All of the groups were centered on the weighted string. I've got a few busted fobs, nocks, and had to re-tie the string back together several times. No change in arrow flight (obviously because no adjustments were made). Tried some 125 grain field points... poi was lower at the longer yardages, but the groups were all still spot on. The arrows seem to fly a tiny bit better with the heavier point weight though. I do not have any fixed blade broadheads to tune with at this time because I'm one of those dorks who uses "rage" mechanicals. And yes, the one deer that I shot last sunday, the rage worked as advertised. I guess I will go digging through my buddy's stash of old broadheads to find some 100 and 125 grain fixed blades to do some more testing. Maybe one would think that I'm being too picky about my setup, but then what else would I have to complain about right?? Thanks to all that have replied and keep shooting me suggestions if you have any. Shoot straight and good luck in the woods fellas!


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## y2khog (Jun 4, 2008)

One thing I didn't see mentioned was checking for clearance issues. Take some spray foot powder and cover the last 4 to 6 inches of your arrows and your rest then shoot. Look for marks indicating contact.


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## Ches (Aug 3, 2009)

Haywood
Make sure if you find an old Fixed Blade head that it spins good, if not, it will drive you nuts. And yes, nuts & Bolts is the man. I have learned a lot from him over the years. In those days, it was not all put together in a sticky like it is today. I was also on the PSE site the most and would come over here just to see what Nuts & Bolts was teaching. At one point he was asking if anyone wanted one on one lessons for a fee. He lives in CA, kind of a hike from Wisconsin or I might have taken him up. He could probable teach me more in a day than it would take me the rest of the years I have l shooting.

Ches.


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## 454casull (Jan 7, 2005)

If you have not had this bow on a draw board to check the cam sync you are not shooting a tuned Primal. The bottom cam is almost always late. The cables settle after about 200-300 shots too. These bows need stiff arrows not weaker. Get the cams sync'd then play with the draw weight and see if REDUCING doesn't help. I had to got to 300 spine arrows...check the specs in my sig. My arrows are 28". The bow shoots laser beams, not a hint of wobble. Killed a doe Sunday at 30 yards and the arrow ended up buried 8 feet behind where she stood! That's with a Grim Reaper expandable too.


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## M-Haywood (Mar 2, 2011)

I need to find someone nearby that has a drawboard, or just build my own. I have been wanting to check the timing on one of those machines since I bought the bow. When purchased, the mods had to be swapped out to fit my draw length, so I'm really skeptical that they would still be in time. I noticed that at rest, there is a hole in each mod that shows halfway from the face of the limb. Both top and bottom are exactly the same.... But, I realize that at full draw everything changes...... so I need a drawboard as 454 says. Have seen many easy plans in the DIY section, so I guess that's my next step. My local dealer is the nicest guy around but he doesn't have a drawboard, he's old school and says the holes in the mods show that the bow is timed properly. Don't wanna argue with him because he's been a great friend and I will be better off fine tuning on my own. If anyone here on AT has their own drawboard and is within an hour drive of Hastings, MI let me know!!!


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## 454casull (Jan 7, 2005)

A down and dirty check w/out the board would be to have you draw the bow then have someone watch the cams as you sloooowly let down. Most of the time you can see the differences. Do this with an arrow and in a safe place just in case something happens w/the release. You'll need a bow press too but I kind of figure you already know that. There are a series of hash marks on the cams and those need to be equal once that is achieved the draw stops are then set. Not sure how this was done w/out a board when they changed your mods. Once the cams are sync'd you'll feel it in the shot, it is a different bow. BTW make sure both mods have the same #. Friend on here had 2 different ones when the shop changed his out.


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