# Hoyt 2015 !!!!



## realmfg (Jun 4, 2005)

Cool story bro


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## mrbirdog (Oct 17, 2009)

THX ! just keepin it real brother man...



realmfg said:


> Cool story bro


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## BeastofEast (Sep 19, 2011)

i wouldnt be looking into 2015 as they ill have the same design on the carbon prob for 2 to 3 yrs id imagine.


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## rolyat008 (Aug 6, 2010)

Yea, if you want to keep it real you should have a started a thread about the 2018 line up. They might actually do something innovative lol


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## ConflictDiamond (Jul 30, 2009)

How much further can they go? Except for changing riser shapes and minor cam mods, I'm not sure any manuf can take it too much further. Just my $0.02.

G


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## Z-MAN (Jan 25, 2004)

Why do they need limbs any more?? Getting farther from being called a "bow".


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## Irish Sitka (Jul 2, 2009)

I have an Alpha Burner and as I see it, it can stop there!
I get 304 FPS off the string and it is dead accurate, what more do I need?
Limbs are 60# smooth draw and lightning fast off the string!
I will buy a new Hoyt Cap.
What is the new design for 2014?


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## mrbirdog (Oct 17, 2009)

OK ! OK ! You asked for it you got it ....HOYT 2018 ....oops check back in 4 or so years.....LOL I liked the guy who was happy with his burner and says what the hey I'll get a new hat...Is that lineup out yet ....LOL !!!!!



rolyat008 said:


> Yea, if you want to keep it real you should have a started a thread about the 2018 line up. They might actually do something innovative lol


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## Viper69 (Feb 4, 2003)

Man 2018. Those bows will cost $2500 by then


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## Dooger (Jan 9, 2005)

ConflictDiamond said:


> How much further can they go? Except for changing riser shapes and minor cam mods, I'm not sure any manuf can take it too much further. Just my $0.02.
> 
> G


Some of us were hoping for different specs....as in ATA, BH, etc. Not speed or carbon, just a smooth yet forgiving bow. Hoyt lost me this year since they went in reverse of what I wanted. Now I'm waiting on a Spyder Turbo with a 3.1 cam and C mod in 60# to go on clearance somewhere.


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## Tiggie_00 (Jul 18, 2009)

Hopefully by 2018 people realize carbon cracks, can not hold a finish of any kind and becomes unseeded where the carbon joints to the limb pockets.. Carbon saves you very little weight and is 100% hype. I would take an aircraft alloy, 1-4ounce heavier, durable, solid bow any day of the week over the carbon experimentation. And lets not forget the 500 savings. But in this world there are two types of buyers. Ones that like to pay 20.00 for a pair of shoes and some that pay 200.00 for a pair. They both get you from point A to B.  A value is a state of mind and carbon is the new bling or fad for the moment. I just wish hoyt would bring a 5" short brace, 28-30axle to axle speed bow to the table. Sure it might be a radical shooting bow, but it would be targeted at the hunting croud that shoots under 30~40 yards + Compact and fast.


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## rolyat008 (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm with you on the carbon. They aren't much stiffer or lighter than a well engineered 7000 series riser. They are just more expensive and lack impact resistance... Which doesn't make sense for a hunting bow IMO.


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

I would say the opposite is true. Forget the carbon bows, check out their target bow and kids bow lineup. Im not even a Hoyt dealer and I will admit that itsgoing to be even harder this year to compete because they released a bow literally for everyone this year. IMO they improved their line this year


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Well, I would have probably finally purchased my first Hoyt this year, but they failed to add flex (or some other "reverse-assist" style) roller system.
While the bows may not need it, I've had it in my head to wait..... I'll bet you that one of these roller designs will be added to the 2015's!?!?
(Also I'd like to see the old limb dampeners back, which I'm sure "ain't going to happen." ~ I just don't care for their new "limb and a half" dampeners.)

7000 series aluminum would be nice too..... (But isn't that aluminum worse in terms of vibration?)

One last thing that I've bee noticing with the Hoyt bows (when compared to many of the others): Why are their cams so small (diameter) in comparison?


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## Hoythunter01 (Oct 23, 2005)

Not into the Carbon. Don't like anything new since the Alphamax 35. (hunting bow)

I took a deap breath and did spend money on some bows....all the ones I wish I never got rid of.

2001 Ultratec
2006 Ultratec (Blue Fusion)
2006 Ultratec (Camo)
2010 Alphaburner

I still have...

2004 Xtec
2007 Vectrix XL
2009 Alphamax 35
2010 Alphamax 35
2010 Alpha Elite

As I see it, when Hoyt comes out with something that is a "Gotta Have" I'll add to the stable. Until then, there is nothing out there that these bows won't get done.


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

Viper69 said:


> Man 2018. Those bows will cost $2500 by then


Good.My buddys might not copy me that year.hehehe


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Still really liking my CS 30, no regrets whatsoever


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

ontarget7 said:


> Still really liking my CS 30, no regrets whatsoever


What's your draw length & how's the string angle? (& which cam if @ 28 in.?)
My thoughts were the 34 was a touch too long (ata), and I was uncomfortable going with the 6 inch b/h @ 30 in. ata.
Thus far I have not been able to shoot a 70# LH 27.5 draw (#2 cam) bow. They had the bow, just not the right module. :sad:
(Didn't want to like a Mathews, but looks like it's going to be a Chill-R for me this time around. And this afternoon may be the day.)


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

Tiggie_00 said:


> Hopefully by 2018 people realize carbon cracks, can not hold a finish of any kind and becomes unseeded where the carbon joints to the limb pockets.. Carbon saves you very little weight and is 100% hype. I would take an aircraft alloy, 1-4ounce heavier, durable, solid bow any day of the week over the carbon experimentation. And lets not forget the 500 savings. But in this world there are two types of buyers. Ones that like to pay 20.00 for a pair of shoes and some that pay 200.00 for a pair. They both get you from point A to B.  A value is a state of mind and carbon is the new bling or fad for the moment. I just wish hoyt would bring a 5" short brace, 28-30axle to axle speed bow to the table. Sure it might be a radical shooting bow, but it would be targeted at the hunting croud that shoots under 30~40 yards + Compact and fast.


So when will the original Matrix bows start self-destructing?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BrokenLimbs said:


> What's your draw length & how's the string angle? (& which cam if @ 28 in.?)
> My thoughts were the 34 was a touch too long (ata), and I was uncomfortable going with the 6 inch b/h @ 30 in. ata.
> Thus far I have not been able to shoot a 70# LH 27.5 draw (#2 cam) bow. They had the bow, just not the right module. :sad:
> (Didn't want to like a Mathews, but looks like it's going to be a Chill-R for me this time around. And this afternoon may be the day.)


I don't really have an issue with string angle and adapt well to a wide variety of ATA's. If you are a 28" draw I would recommend the #2 cam in the E slot, still getting a solid 340-343 IBO out of mine as well as others in the same #2 cam in the E slot. Very nice draw cycle for those speeds


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## Vegeman (Jan 9, 2014)

Calm the freakin farm down ! 2015 ?! Pshhhhhh

I'm in the process of going for a 2014 bow and people are already planning for next year ? No wonder the bow companies keep up-ing the prices and throwing out new models every year. Maybe if we could all be a bit less picky and just focus on the shooting...I didn't just say that.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

The Alphamax series was the last, best bow they've made. Nothing since then has been an improvement - just marketing, higher prices and lots of suckers paying for them. Carbon isn't worth the price tag and I agree that they'll do nothing substantive with their carbon lineup for a few years give the redesign in the 2014 models.

The four things they'd have to do to get me interested would be
1) employ a flex guard system of some sort (like most of the competition does) or, at a minimum at least go back to a normal (maybe bent bar) cable slide system. I absolutely hate the fixed rollers.
2) build a 7000 series riser so they can have high stiffness with lower weight - it's just superior to 6000 series (I believe only Prime and PSE - on DNA series - are using 7000 series now)
3) alter the cam design to get just a little more performance out of them. Their performance isn't bad but their cams aren't any faster than the Alphamax I mentioned earlier so they've gotten no incremental performance out of their cams in years.
4) add an optional limb stop on the cams like PSE did this year on their Source cams. It's an ingenious option as it allows the archery the flexibility of having the give of cable stops or the rock solid wall of a limb stop.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> The Alphamax series was the last, best bow they've made. Nothing since then has been an improvement - just marketing, higher prices and lots of suckers paying for them. Carbon isn't worth the price tag and I agree that they'll do nothing substantive with their carbon lineup for a few years give the redesign in the 2014 models.
> 
> The four things they'd have to do to get me interested would be
> 1) employ a flex guard system of some sort (like most of the competition does) or, at a minimum at least go back to a normal (maybe bent bar) cable slide system. I absolutely hate the fixed rollers.
> ...


LOL !!!!

It's funny because every time I tune the new bows back to back with the AM series there is really no comparison but to each their own


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> LOL !!!!
> 
> It's funny because every time I tune the new bows back to back with the AM series there is really no comparison but to each their own


That is funny because even Hoyt admits via their advertised speeds absolutely zero increase. I had my AM 32 tuned to perform well above advertised speed and it was a dream to tune. Nothing since has resulted in any real increased performance (and yes, that's even compared to the many bows you've tuned and posted results on).

I have never seen any objective evidence of real performance improvements over the years and there is no way you can convince any logical person on this planet that your perception of marginally increased performance (which I don't believe exists but, like you said "to each their own") would be anywhere near worth the price differential in a used Alphamax and a new Hoyt (especially the carbon).

But not here to get in a pi$$ing match. Just posted what I'd like to see changein 2015. Thanks for your comment Shane.  What would you like to see improved? Surely you don't think Hoyt bows are perfect.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> That is funny because even Hoyt admits via their advertised speeds absolutely zero increase. I had my AM 32 tuned to perform well above advertised speed and it was a dream to tune. Nothing since has resulted in any real increased performance (and yes, that's even compared to the many bows you've tuned and posted results on).
> 
> I have never seen any objective evidence of real performance improvements over the years and there is no way you can convince any logical person on this planet that your perception of marginally increased performance (which I don't believe exists but, like you said "to each their own") would be anywhere near worth the price differential in a used Alphamax and a new Hoyt (especially the carbon).
> 
> But not hear to get in a pi$$ing match. Just posted what I'd like to see chance in 2015. Thanks for your comment Shane. What would you like to see improved?


Your actual facts are wrong. I have yet to see a AM 32 in the #2 cam in the E slot come close to the speeds of the present 30 in the same specs. 

Not a pissing match at all but I will call you out when the facts are wrong.


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## misterfell (Nov 20, 2009)

Hopefully get away from their ridiculously past parallel limbs and back to a 35 ata or longer hunting bow..Not at all saying their bows Dont perform for certain people just my opinion on what I would like to see..


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Your actual facts are wrong. I have yet to see a AM 32 in the #2 cam in the E slot come close to the speeds of the present 30 in the same specs.
> 
> Not a pissing match at all but I will call you out when the facts are wrong.


Not arguing with you and not going to let you derail this thread further. My comments were simply context for my list of things i'd like to see improved. Yours are simply argumentative and you've offered nothing of substance regarding the intent of the thread. Get back on topic and answer my question about what you'd like to see improved in 2015 for Hoyt or don't bother posting on the thread.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Not arguing with you and not going to let you derail this thread further. Get back on topic and answer my question about what you'd like to see improved in 2015 for Hoyt or don't bother posting on the thread.


OK , Mom. LOL !


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> OK , Mom. LOL !


Wow, that was mature. Just can't stay on topic can you.

We all know you are a HUGE fan of Hoyt (and may feel some need to self-justify dropping the coin you have on their carbon offerings) but you seriously can't think of anything, ANYTHING, that Hoyt could improve upon? You actually think they should just not offer anything new for the next 5 or so years? Just keep the same lineup and hope they can keep getting the high prices they charge for the bows? Pretty sure that wouldn't work out so well for them. Good thing you aren't a Hoyt engineer - you'd have been fired years ago or brought the company to its knees. You would be really good in their marketing department though.

So I guess you have nothing to offer to this thread. I was hoping, given how much time you spend with these bows, that you could actually, just for a few minutes, be objective and offer something of value here. Guess I was wrong.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

For 2015 I could careless if they change or don't change their roller guard system it has zero impact on an overall tune if you no how to tune them.

What I would like to see is the same performance base cams like the RKT's throughout the different draw lengths. In other words a modified Z5 cam to hold more of its peak performance throughout the different draw length. 

RKT performance packed into a Z5 cam


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Predator said:


> The Alphamax series was the last, best bow they've made. Nothing since then has been an improvement - just marketing, higher prices and lots of suckers paying for them.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's surely not the gospel. And most Hoyt shooters I know, simply disagree with your opinon. That can't be coincidence. Having owned and tuned nearly every Hoyt bow over the last 5 years or so, the newer bows have a much better draw cycle, a better valley, are quieter, and the biggest to me...they hold on target better. You may not think the gap is large enough to warrant a purchase, and again, that is subjective, but to say they haven't made ANY improvements is simply not true.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Wow, that was mature. Just can't stay on topic can you.
> 
> We all know you are a HUGE fan of Hoyt (and may feel some need to self-justify dropping the coin you have on their carbon offerings) but you seriously can't think of anything, ANYTHING, that Hoyt could improve upon? You actually think they should just not offer anything new for the next 5 or so years? Just keep the same lineup and hope they can keep getting the high prices they charge for the bows? Pretty sure that wouldn't work out so well for them. Good thing you aren't a Hoyt engineer - you'd have been fired years ago or brought the company to its knees. You would be really good in their marketing department though.
> 
> So I guess you have nothing to offer to this thread. I was hoping, given how much time you spend with these bows, that you could actually, just for a few minutes, be objective and offer something of value here. Guess I was wrong.


The way you talk to people really blows me away. 

The performance things I mentioned you would probably not no because you have zero time behind them but still continue to pour into threads like this.
So let me ask you. How could you even comment on this thread if have have spent very little time with the 2014 bows to know what to even improve on ? You go off of visual and have no idea what is really going on. Just like your DNA now. You blasted me in regards to that bow would not be a shooter at all and did not see how the technology would change that. Well now you own one and are a master of technology. You never cease to amaze me. By the way I have one of your favorite 2 track cam leaning E 35 on order, ya they are behind in technology to LOL ! Even I am eating my words and going back to a 2 track to add to my bows. Bottom line there is more to meet the eye sometimes.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I finally took some pics of my personal Spyder 34 in my drawboard yesterday because someone wanted to see the cams on it at full draw. This isn't rocket science, but this bow has the slightest amount of prelean at brace, and as you can see, the cam is straight at full draw. The roller guard gets WAY more of a bad rap than it should, when in reality, it doesn't impose that much lateral torque in my opinion. The cables are actually fairly inline with the string. The wider limb spacing change they made in '13 helped for sure, so that is one noted improvement.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> For 2015 I could careless if they change or don't change their roller guard system it has zero impact on an overall tune if you no how to tune them.
> 
> What I would like to see is the same performance base cams like the RKT's throughout the different draw lengths. In other words a modified Z5 cam to hold more of its peak performance throughout the different draw length.
> 
> RKT performance packed into a Z5 cam


Well, that's good feedback on the cam system.

I agree that you can tune around the fixed rollers but they do cause enhanced cable torque - one of the top guys at Hoyt (more of an expert on their design than either of us) specifically stated this to me. If you think that's a good thing well, ok.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Kris87 said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's surely not the gospel. And most Hoyt shooters I know, simply disagree with your opinon. That can't be coincidence. Having owned and tuned nearly every Hoyt bow over the last 5 years or so, the newer bows have a much better draw cycle, a better valley, are quieter, and the biggest to me...they hold on target better. You may not think the gap is large enough to warrant a purchase, and again, that is subjective, but to say they haven't made ANY improvements is simply not true.


You are right. If I said simply "any" I shouldn't have. I should have said "any substantive". And yes, that's my opinion. I used to shoot Hoyt and have owned more Hoyts than any other brand over the years. After the Alphamax I just have seen more impressive options outside of the Hoyt brand. I would love to see them draw me back in....we'll see.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Predator said:


> I agree that you can tune around the fixed rollers but they do cause enhanced cable torque - one of the top guys at Hoyt (more of an expert on their design than either of us) specifically stated this to me. If you think that's a good thing well, ok.


Yes, you can tune around it, just by using the cam orientation. If Hoyts were so bad, then they'd all be tuning with awful amounts of cam(lean) change throughout the draw cycle, while they actually don't. PSE and Bowtech, even with their flex systems, require the same tuning methods to offset their cable torque too. They certainly aren't free of it.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Predator said:


> I would love to see them draw me back in....we'll see.


Shoot and spend some time with one of the new bows. I think you'd be impressed. Maybe not enough to switch, but you'd see the changes and how nice they are.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> The way you talk to people really blows me away.
> 
> The performance things I mentioned you would probably not no because you have zero time behind them but still continue to pour into threads like this.
> So let me ask you. How could you even comment on this thread if have have spent very little time with the 2014 bows to know what to even improve on ? You go off of visual and have no idea what is really going on. Just like your DNA now. You blasted me in regards to that bow would not be a shooter at all and did not see how the technology would change that. Well now you own one and are a master of technology. You never cease to amaze me. By the way I have one of your favorite 2 track cam leaning E 35 on order, ya they are behind in technology to LOL ! Even I am eating my words and going back to a 2 track to add to my bows. Bottom line there is more to meet the eye sometimes.


First off, I don't need a lecture from you on how to behave.

Second, and critically important here, is that I wasn't talking to anyone when I first posted on this thread. I was just sharing my opinion on what I'd like to see improved. It was you that then had to quote me and make insulting comments to me. You then don't like the way I defend myself from your attacks?!?! Seriously? OK. If you don't like the way I defend myself then don't attack me in the first place. Just because you are a tuner doesn't give you the right to try to make everyone else who doesn't have quite the tuning expertise that you do feel stupid.

I don't need to have owned a 2014 to see design elements I'd like to see improved. The OP is in the same position if you didn't notice.

My original point on the DNA was when it was first released and almost nobody had one in their hands. My primary point was that I didn't think it was the best option for those in the mass market that weren't experienced shooters. That was based on a combination of the short brace height and the lack of a valley. I have eaten my words on the brace height front and have admitted in numerous posts that I used to buy into the myth that you couldn't shoot a sub-7" BH bow nearly as accurately. I had to prove myself wrong on that. But, I would still stand by my original assertion that the DNA is not a great bow for an inexperienced archer. Between the brace height and the lack of valley it would likely be more challenging than many other bows for an inexperienced archer to use. I have many years of experience and shoot year-round so I don't fit that description. And yes, I own both a DNA and a DNA SP. I do think the SP would fit the mass market better, especially archers with say 29" DL or shorter, because it's got a better valley but I wouldn't recommend the DNA to a newbie.

And yes, I notice you are sort of eating your words on the binary. Like me, you've never been a big fan of them. I'm not yet ready to eat those words. We'll see how it works put for you.


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## DeepFried (May 15, 2009)

realmfg said:


> Cool story bro


Are you 13? My tweens use that same phrase. Damn annoying kids.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Kris87 said:


> Yes, you can tune around it, just by using the cam orientation. If Hoyts were so bad, then they'd all be tuning with awful amounts of cam(lean) change throughout the draw cycle, while they actually don't. PSE and Bowtech, even with their flex systems, require the same tuning methods to offset their cable torque too. They certainly aren't free of it.


I have with a CS30. Nice bow and the carbon is better at fighting the cable torque issue than the 6000 series aluminum but it's not worth the price tag IMO (and not because I can't afford it). I'm good with my DNA's for now - won't be buying a 2014 Hoyt. But I will be watching what Hoyt does going forward. Still a fan of the company. They've tended to be a little slow on the technology advances (carbon riser being an exception) but they make a solid product.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Sorry, quoted the wrong one of your posts on the last message.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Kris87 said:


> Yes, you can tune around it, just by using the cam orientation. If Hoyts were so bad, then they'd all be tuning with awful amounts of cam(lean) change throughout the draw cycle, while they actually don't. PSE and Bowtech, even with their flex systems, require the same tuning methods to offset their cable torque too. They certainly aren't free of it.


I certainly never said Hoyts were "so bad". To your point, they did mitigate some of the negative effect of the fixed roller with the wider spacers. And yes, with anything other than a true shoot through system you have to tune around the cable torque. The flex systems just reduce the negative effect. I've tuned my share of bows and I've notice differences between a straight cable guard, the flex systems of Bowtech and PSE and the fixed rollers of Hoyt. I can tune them all but really prefer the benefits a flex system gives you.


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## studlypwnss (Jan 25, 2014)

so..... im excited to see what everyone comes out with in 2015. and see how this pissing match turns out.


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## nwmn (Mar 2, 2010)

I think that hoyts roller guard is not a bad design, because of that piece of riser that is behind the grip. It is roughly midway between attachment point to the main riser and the rollers, therefor pressure pulling in on one end would be equal to the pressure pulling out on the other end. A bad design would be just a straight long guard where you would get the mechanical advantage of leverage. I think that hoyt has the best lineup of 2014. The thing that I don't like about hoyt is they have tons of limb compression at full draw making a short bow feel even shorter and obviously it isn't causing issues but I hate the floppy bottom cam.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Well, that's good feedback on the cam system.
> 
> I agree that you can tune around the fixed rollers but they do cause enhanced cable torque - one of the top guys at Hoyt (more of an expert on their design than either of us) specifically stated this to me. If you think that's a good thing well, ok.


I would really like to no who this top expert is at Hoyt that you bring up ? 
Just asking because i am not getting the same response from them at all. 

Just not seeing the signs of the excessive cable torque you refer to all the time.


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## nagster (Nov 29, 2007)

Looking forward to my first hoyt, CS34. No need to think about 2015


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

For 2015, in the hunting line...a Faktor (or whatever the new name will be) 38. Same geometry of the current offerings, just a longer riser. 60 or 70 series al, don't really care. Z5 or RKT or Z5 with RKT performance, don't really care (As long as it doesn't resemble the Fuel cams that is). No rollers.

Second choice in the hunting line...something along the lines of the Ultra Tecs at 38".

Target line...they pretty much have everything covered. Personally, a standard offering of a PCEXXL, either with 3000s limbs, or a stretched riser would do just fine.

Shane...guessing that the person is Darren Cooper. He told me the same thing a few years ago, while he was still designing stuff at Hoyt. I agree with his assessment (I know you don't).


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

ontarget7 said:


> I would really like to no who this top expert is at Hoyt that you bring up ?
> Just asking because i am not getting the same response from them at all.
> 
> Just not seeing the signs of the excessive cable torque you refer to all the time.


Agreed. I was nervouse when I picked up my 2013 Spyder Turbo because of the rollers and the hate for them on here. Do rollers add more torque, sure. Does it vary on what bow they're on and other factors like DL, yep. All I know is my turbo with the #3 cam is set right down the middle with no more pre lean needed than my Pro Comp Elite XL's and the pins are just ever so barely left of the string while viewed from behind. Bareshafts and fletched are dead on at 20. I was surprised how easily it tuned. Shane, your findings on the lack of torque and tuneability of the recent hunting bows with rollers is spot on. It's way over exaggerated here. If your DL is on and your grip is what it should be, they tune as easy as any non roller gaurd bow.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Rolo said:


> Shane...guessing that the person is Darren Cooper. He told me the same thing a few years ago, while he was still designing stuff at Hoyt. I agree with his assessment (I know you don't).


Maybe, if so I believe he might have changed his opinion on them.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

ontarget7 said:


> Maybe, if so I believe he might have changed his opinion on them.


That's the one thing I don't know. And, when he told me that (he told a lot of people the same thing) Hoyt was not offering rollers. I'm pretty sure he is still flinging arrows with Hoyts and with Hoyts equipped with rollers though.

Without getting into the reasons for these statements, I tended to agree with his reasoning based on my limited engineering skills. Made sense to my analytical mind.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> I would really like to no who this top expert is at Hoyt that you bring up ?
> Just asking because i am not getting the same response from them at all.
> 
> Just not seeing the signs of the excessive cable torque you refer to all the time.


I am not going to post his name but if I did you'd know who it was right away (and no, it's not D. Cooper). I was put in touch with him via a mutual friend of ours and our conversation was in confidence so I'm obviously not going to "out" him and risk getting him in trouble with ownership. But I can assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt the conversation happened. In addition to creating added cable torque (which as stated above they somewhat mitigated with the wider limbs/spacers in 2013) he said he suspected they wouldn't be in a hurry to get rid of them because that additional torque added speed to the system - that (my words) would instead presumably have to be designed into the cams to maintain the same performance. It's through these discussions that I also learned about their range of manufacturing tolerances (all manufacturers have them) which explains why you get slightly different tuning, speed and performance from some bows of the same model (which I know you've experienced). This is the same reason that some 2-track binaries are easy to tune and some of the same model can be a pain (and more difficult than a hybrid because of the lack of a yoke system).


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Rolo said:


> That's the one thing I don't know. And, when he told me that (he told a lot of people the same thing) Hoyt was not offering rollers. I'm pretty sure he is still flinging arrows with Hoyts and with Hoyts equipped with rollers though.
> 
> Without getting into the reasons for these statements, I tended to agree with his reasoning based on my limited engineering skills. Made sense to my analytical mind.


That might make sense where all this came from then. I always had a hard time wrapping my head around all these so called issues and wondered where they came from. I have tuned to many to count since they started the fixed rollers and have not seen these issues at all. 

I like reading his articles, but you are right, I just don't see it and would have to disagree. 

Thanks bro
Shane


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Rolo said:


> That's the one thing I don't know. And, when he told me that (he told a lot of people the same thing) Hoyt was not offering rollers. I'm pretty sure he is still flinging arrows with Hoyts and with Hoyts equipped with rollers though.
> 
> Without getting into the reasons for these statements, I tended to agree with his reasoning based on my limited engineering skills. Made sense to my analytical mind.


It makes sense to you because it's 100% logical.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

ontarget7 said:


> That might make sense where all this came from then. I always had a hard time wrapping my head around all these so called issues and wondered where they came from. I have tuned to many to count since they started the fixed rollers and have not seen these issues at all.
> 
> I like reading his articles, but you are right, I just don't see it and would have to disagree.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know I know. :tongue:

"Issues" real, imagined, or somewhere in between, I don't know, but I do know that in the past, I have preferred static rods over rollers, not only for tuning, but just for shootability, which is highly subjective. But, it has been hard in the past to test apples to apples.

Now that I have Ray's conversion gizmo, I am going to be able to compare a bow straight up. It will be interesting. For what it's worth, I had no problem getting my CS 34 to tune and bare shaft at 20 yards with an arrow tending to the weaker side. (300 PH about 28 1/2" with 50 gr. inserts and 125 gr heads, 31 1/4"ish DL at 72ish lbs.) Difficult finding arrows with the characteristics I want that are stiff enough for the way I want to shoot them.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Predator said:


> It makes sense to you because it's 100% logical.


It may be, but comparing that with my tuning results with my CS 34 and slightly weak arrows, the logic went away, at least to a degree. The shootability characteristics have yet to be determined. :darkbeer:


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> I am not going to post his name but if I did you'd know who it was right away (and no, it's not D. Cooper). I was put in touch with him via a mutual friend of ours and our conversation was in confidence so I'm obviously not going to "out" him and risk getting him in trouble with ownership. But I can assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt the conversation happened. In addition to creating added cable torque (which as stated above they somewhat mitigated with the wider limbs/spacers in 2013) he said he suspected they wouldn't be in a hurry to get rid of them because that additional torque added speed to the system - that (my words) would instead presumably have to be designed into the cams to maintain the same performance. It's through these discussions that I also learned about their range of manufacturing tolerances (all manufacturers have them) which explains why you get slightly different tuning, speed and performance from some bows of the same model (which I know you've experienced). This is the same reason that some 2-track binaries are easy to tune and some of the same model can be a pain (and more difficult than a hybrid because of the lack of a yoke system).


I guess it's all this torque thing that I am not really seeing. There has been a lot of the fixed roller guards go through my tuning and really see no evidence at all that it causes issues. 
Now if it were the owner of the company that you claim, yep I would still disagree and say he doesn't really no his own system then. Some how I don't think that's the case. 

Now some can say you are an experienced archer as they do here in AT. However, I have seen so many new archers have zero issues with accuracy and these bows. 

Sorry still don't see they have a problem. 

Thanks for sharing thou

Shane


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## Joeshwa24 (Jan 26, 2012)

ontarget7 said:


> RKT performance packed into a Z5 cam





Rolo said:


> For 2015, in the hunting line...a Faktor (or whatever the new name will be) 38. Same geometry of the current offerings, just a longer riser.


These are the only things I would hope to see in the 2015 line up.

I'm going to say something that may garner a lot of animosity on this sight but I honestly think that the 2014 Hoyts are the Elite's of a few years ago. Everyone harps on about how smooth the Elites are, what a great valley they have with the qualifier that they're not that fast, that’s a great description of the 2014 Hoyt's. Honestly I shot 3 E35's and they were great but in draw and valley I think the Z5 beats the Elite hands down the back wall on the Elite is really good but so is the Hoyt back wall. 

Just my 2 cents

All that said I can tell you the next bow I will get is going to be a PSE Freak SP for 3D.


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

I would love to see a Hoyt with a solid back wall like Obsession and Elite with a flex cable guard. I have owned a lot of Hoyt's and they are nice bows for sure.


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

Joeshwa24 said:


> These are the only things I would hope to see in the 2015 line up.
> 
> I'm going to say something that may garner a lot of animosity on this sight but I honestly think that the 2014 Hoyts are the Elite's of a few years ago. Everyone harps on about how smooth the Elites are, what a great valley they have with the qualifier that they're not that fast, that’s a great description of the 2014 Hoyt's. Honestly I shot 3 E35's and they were great but in draw and valley I think the Z5 beats the Elite hands down the back wall on the Elite is really good but so is the Hoyt back wall.
> 
> ...


The Hoyt back wall is descent, Mathews wall is spongy but the Elite and Obsession back wall is solid due to limb stops. Some Hoyt's feel as if they want to take off if you creep a little.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

ontarget7 said:


> That might make sense where all this came from then. I always had a hard time wrapping my head around all these so called issues and wondered where they came from. I have tuned to many to count since they started the fixed rollers and have not seen these issues at all.
> 
> I like reading his articles, but you are right, I just don't see it and would have to disagree.
> 
> ...


Its Only the Archerytalk Community that has "issues" with roller guards...never had a customer come in and say he's shooting like crap because of the roller guards.


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## TSwift (Aug 27, 2012)

I hope they keep coming with "new stuff" every year. I love the great deals on left over models


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## Joeshwa24 (Jan 26, 2012)

cgs1967 said:


> The Hoyt back wall is descent, Mathews wall is spongy but the Elite and Obsession back wall is solid due to limb stops. Some Hoyt's feel as if they want to take off if you creep a little.


You know I have yet to shoot any of the Z5's that have that "take off" feeling, I'm shooting an 80# CS34 and it's got the best valley I've shot in some time. I agree whole heartedly with your assessment on the back wall, if I could have my CS34 with an Elite back wall that would be excellent.


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## Bow Only (Feb 1, 2004)

Rumor on the street is that the 2015 Hoyts will be slaved two tracks.


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## WVaBuckHunter (Sep 30, 2010)

Tiggie_00 said:


> Hopefully by 2018 people realize carbon cracks, can not hold a finish of any kind and becomes unseeded where the carbon joints to the limb pockets.. Carbon saves you very little weight and is 100% hype. I would take an aircraft alloy, 1-4ounce heavier, durable, solid bow any day of the week over the carbon experimentation. And lets not forget the 500 savings. But in this world there are two types of buyers. Ones that like to pay 20.00 for a pair of shoes and some that pay 200.00 for a pair. They both get you from point A to B.  A value is a state of mind and carbon is the new bling or fad for the moment. I just wish hoyt would bring a 5" short brace, 28-30axle to axle speed bow to the table. Sure it might be a radical shooting bow, but it would be targeted at the hunting croud that shoots under 30~40 yards + Compact and fast.


I think this is funny. This post was obviously before your new avatar. Lol


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## nagster (Nov 29, 2007)

the carbon spyders I test drove all had a rock solid backwall


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## DeAdEye15 (Sep 28, 2013)

Why would anyone have a problem with a setup if it caused no problems at all? The fixed roller guard is a none issue. Hoyts are very easy to tune, there are no torque issues what so ever. If you can take a bow and stack broad heads with field points and bust nocks all day with it, why would anyone complain. I don't see how it's an issue at all. There's no excessive cam lean, nothing to degrade accuracy. I think the fixed roller guard is some peoples way of justifying there bashing of a certain brand, or justifying there purchase of another brand. There is no argument to be had when it comes to Hoyts roller guard, period. If anything it's beneficial, much easier on the cables. There's plenty of options out there if you can't get over some asinine problem with a roller guard. The most novice of archers can tune a Hoyt.


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## DeAdEye15 (Sep 28, 2013)

The back wall on the new Hoyts can be made as solid or as soft as you like. A little top cam advancement will take out any slack in the control cable and give you a very solid back wall, as solid as any bow on the market. Fact.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

WVaBuckHunter said:


> I think this is funny. This post was obviously before your new avatar. Lol



Should ask him how that crow taste
LoL


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## nagster (Nov 29, 2007)

DeAdEye15 said:


> The back wall on the new Hoyts can be made as solid or as soft as you like. A little top cam advancement will take out any slack in the control cable and give you a very solid back wall, as solid as any bow on the market. Fact.


This is just my opinion, but the backwall on the Carbon's were just as rock solid as my elite is. It Felt just as good. So I agree


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

DeAdEye15 said:


> Why would anyone have a problem with a setup if it caused no problems at all? The fixed roller guard is a none issue. Hoyts are very easy to tune, there are no torque issues what so ever. If you can take a bow and stack broad heads with field points and bust nocks all day with it, why would anyone complain. I don't see how it's an issue at all. There's no excessive cam lean, nothing to degrade accuracy. I think the fixed roller guard is some peoples way of justifying there bashing of a certain brand, or justifying there purchase of another brand. There is no argument to be had when it comes to Hoyts roller guard, period. If anything it's beneficial, much easier on the cables. There's plenty of options out there if you can't get over some asinine problem with a roller guard. The most novice of archers can tune a Hoyt.


Everything about this post is "funny" but I'll just take the last comment.

I'll bet you $100 that we could pick any Hoyt dealer in the country and select the next 10 people that come in and buy a Hoyt and I'll bet not more than one of them can properly tune a Hoyt. Tuning a Hoyt is not difficult for those of us who have the know how and equipment to do so but VeRY few archers fit that description. To say that the "most novice of archers can tune a Hoyt" is absolutely absurd.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

DeAdEye15 said:


> The back wall on the new Hoyts can be made as solid or as soft as you like. A little top cam advancement will take out any slack in the control cable and give you a very solid back wall, as solid as any bow on the market. Fact.



I dont feel cable stops are as solid as limb stops(especially dual limb stops)
That being said,I much prefer that slight give of Hoyt's cable stops.
Much more comfortable for me to fire the release more consistently.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

spike camp said:


> I dont feel cable stops are as solid as limb stops(especially dual limb stops)
> That being said,I much prefer that slight give of Hoyt's cable stops.
> Much more comfortable for me to fire the release more consistently.


I agree. Even though the control cable is pretty firm there is some give, unlike limb stops. And while top cam advancement helps you have to be careful as you can have too much top cam advancement for a proper tune.


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## crazyhoyt (May 30, 2011)

Just got a Faktor 30 set up for hunting, I hunt public so wanted a lite bow for toting it around with tree stand , pack, etc, etc, love the bow shoots great.
That being said, I also have a pro comp for indoor an 3d, as well as a Alpha Burner for strictly 3d for unmarked yardage.
Just the other day I traded a tactical mathews heli-m to a co- worker for another Alpha Burner in camo. At least for me the Alpha Burner is one of Hoyt's best ever, so now I have a Faktor 30 just sitting there with no desire to shoot it as well as the pro comp, witch in all honesty I don't shoot as well as I like.
Hopefully someday Hoyt will work on a new bow that is based on the Burner platform, until then I don't see myself gettin another new 2015 Hoyt...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> I agree. Even though the control cable is pretty firm there is some give, unlike limb stops. And while top cam advancement helps you have to be careful as you can have too much top cam advancement for a proper tune.


Can you define to much ?


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## cbeaver22 (Feb 24, 2014)

I feel ya on the ATA. 30 is too short in my opinion, the 34, a touch long. That's why I'm leaning toward getting the Bowtech Experience. It's fast, smooth and has 32" ATA with 7" brace.




BrokenLimbs said:


> What's your draw length & how's the string angle? (& which cam if @ 28 in.?)
> My thoughts were the 34 was a touch too long (ata), and I was uncomfortable going with the 6 inch b/h @ 30 in. ata.
> Thus far I have not been able to shoot a 70# LH 27.5 draw (#2 cam) bow. They had the bow, just not the right module. :sad:
> (Didn't want to like a Mathews, but looks like it's going to be a Chill-R for me this time around. And this afternoon may be the day.)


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## cbeaver22 (Feb 24, 2014)

I feel ya on the ATA. 30 is too short in my opinion, the 34, a touch long. That's why I'm leaning toward getting the Bowtech Experience. It's fast, smooth and has 32" ATA with 7" brace.




BrokenLimbs said:


> What's your draw length & how's the string angle? (& which cam if @ 28 in.?)
> My thoughts were the 34 was a touch too long (ata), and I was uncomfortable going with the 6 inch b/h @ 30 in. ata.
> Thus far I have not been able to shoot a 70# LH 27.5 draw (#2 cam) bow. They had the bow, just not the right module. :sad:
> (Didn't want to like a Mathews, but looks like it's going to be a Chill-R for me this time around. And this afternoon may be the day.)


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Can you define to much ?


Can you define what's not too much?

I say you know it when you see it. I have found slight advancement to often be beneficial to tune but usually not more than 1/16". I think the most I've ever seen you suggest working well was 1/8". And, while slow to admit it, even you eventually admitted that some of the 2014's tuned well/better with no top cam advancement like some others such as Tom were suggesting they had discovered in tuning the 2014's vs. prior Hoyt models.

Point I was making is that you can't just keep increasing top cam advancement to make the wall feel stiffer and stiffer without significantly affecting tune and, at some point, clearly sub-optimizing tune. It should be a pretty obvious point but perhaps not to all.


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## rsully661 (Apr 9, 2010)

Why is it always the same few people that bash on these brand and cam system type threads . Shoot , smile and be happy with your bow ! Quit bothering people about there's .


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Can you define what's not too much?
> 
> I say you know it when you see it. I have found slight advancement to often be beneficial to tune but usually not more than 1/16". I think the most I've ever seen you suggest working well was 1/8". And, while slow to admit it, even you eventually admitted that some of the 2014's tuned well/better with no top cam advancement like some others such as Tom were suggesting they had discovered in tuning the 2014's vs. prior Hoyt models.
> 
> Point I was making is that you can't just keep increasing top cam advancement to make the wall feel stiffer and stiffer without significantly affecting tune and, at some point, clearly sub-optimizing tune. It should be a pretty obvious point but perhaps not to all.


Just curious. Gives me an idea of what you have actually tuned . 

Certain bows will require more and some less. I don't personally tune any hybrid dead on and have best results for myself and customers with top cam advanced. 

I do know of a PSE off hand that will not tune without a good 1/8" + top cam advanced. It will drive bareshafts just as good as the rest of them thou. 

The wall being stiffer when you advance the top cam is just a byproduct of improving vertical nock travel. To think that is the reason why you advance the top cam is really misleading. It's a balance between nock height and cam advancement that will yield you the best vertical nock travel. 

Now you can do it the opposite way and leave the top and bottom cam hitting at the same time and only move your nock height to get clean flight. However this generally will not lead to the best groups down range.

Looks like its not to obvious to you . 

By the way, it's not something you see it's what you feel on the backend.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Just curious. Gives me an idea of what you have actually tuned .
> 
> Certain bows will require more and some less. I don't personally tune any hybrid dead on and have best results for myself and customers with top cam advanced.
> 
> ...


It's quite obvious to me. Nothing you said is really inconsistent with my opinion - glad to see you agree. 

I can tune any hybrid dead on or with slight advancement. I know how to adjust accordingly. I agree, some take more or less to get to an ideal state. Some tuners disagree with you on the 2014 Hoyts - it is what it is (not my argument). I also agree that slight top cam advancement is usually optimal from a performance and accuracy standpoint. I have usually tuned my Hoyts that way (and my DNA SP is that way now) and can "feel" the difference (yeah, should have said "feel" instead of "see" - meant the same thing). And I never suggested that the reason you advance top cam is to get a more solid wall - it's just a byproduct. In fact, my point was that the tune is the driver behind the top cam advancement, and that if you let the wall be the driver you could end up in trouble. Seems, once again, that you agree. And finally, you've confirmed that you don't typically go beyond 1/8" advancement as I suspected (because I've never seen you post a bow you've tuned at more than that). Doesn't mean you couldn't make it work slightly beyond 1/8" but it would rarely be ideal. I personally prefer a little less advancement than that.

Look Shane, it's obvious you keep attempting to make me look stupid or inferior to you on the tuning front for whatever reason. I'll readily admit you've got way more tuning experience than me because you have a business of doing so. That said, I have plenty of experience tuning hybrids and frankly, it's not rocket science. Just because you do it more than most doesn't mean you are God's gift to tuning and everyone else is clueless.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> It's quite obvious to me. Nothing you said is really inconsistent with my opinion - glad to see you agree.
> 
> I can tune any hybrid dead on or with slight advancement. I know how to adjust accordingly. I agree, some take more or less to get to an ideal state. Some tuners disagree with you on the 2014 Hoyts - it is what it is (not my argument). I also agree that slight top cam advancement is usually optimal from a performance and accuracy standpoint. I have usually tuned my Hoyts that way (and my DNA SP is that way now) and can "feel" the difference (yeah, should have said "feel" instead of "see" - meant the same thing). And I never suggested that the reason you advance top cam is to get a more solid wall - it's just a byproduct. In fact, my point was that the tune is the driver behind the top cam advancement, and that if you let the wall be the driver you could end up in trouble. Seems, once again, that you agree. And finally, you've confirmed that you don't typically go beyond 1/8" advancement as I suspected (because I've never seen you post a bow you've tuned at more than that). Doesn't mean you couldn't make it work slightly beyond 1/8" but it would rarely be ideal. I personally prefer a little less advancement than that.
> 
> Look Shane, it's obvious you keep attempting to make me look stupid or inferior to you on the tuning front for whatever reason. I'll readily admit you've got way more tuning experience than me because you have a business of doing so. That said, I have plenty of experience tuning hybrids and frankly, it's not rocket science. Just because you do it more than most doesn't mean you are God's gift to tuning and everyone else is clueless.


It's all good bro ! Just messing with you and at the same time pointing out facts in the sport . You always dish it out to me and you can take it right back.

You have my respect, still don't understand why you are even on the Hoyt threads. Temptation kicking in :wink:


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## w8indq (Dec 9, 2013)

Lol good to see the hoyt fanboys at it again


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> It's all good bro ! Just messing with you and at the same time pointing out facts in the sport . You always dish it out to me and you can take it right back.
> 
> You have my respect, still don't understand why you are even on the Hoyt threads. Temptation kicking in :wink:


I respect your experience and your opinion and find I usually agree with you on most things. You can be rather stubborn on certain things but then so can I for sure. And yes, i can take just about anything here and have no problem dishing it out.

Why am I on a Hoyt thread? I like to talk archery and don't feel I should be restricted to only post on a thread about the brand of bow I happen to be shooting at the time. I'm not locked into any brand. I've owned Mathews, Hoyt, Bowtech and PSE bows over the last 23 years or so that I've been shooting archery equipment. And even other brands I form opinions on. I like to challenge the things I think could be improved as I think we all benefit from competition and further development. I suppose if I was a fanboy of some particular brand I wouldn't care about what other brands are doing and might not even want them to improve. But that's not me. Plus, as already pointed out, of all the brands that I'm not presently shooting, I affiliate more with the Hoyt brand than any of them because it's the one I've shot the most. I'm not even remotely tempted by anything Hoyt has out right now but I'd be shocked if I'm not again shooting a Hoyt at some point.


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## haldermand (Jul 6, 2012)

ConflictDiamond said:


> How much further can they go? Except for changing riser shapes and minor cam mods, I'm not sure any manuf can take it too much further. Just my $0.02.
> 
> G


I agree


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## Eastcoasthunter (Jul 9, 2012)

And next thread please, lmao, guess u havent shot the Faktor


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## nagster (Nov 29, 2007)

Can anyone confirm for the carbon spyders, that is has the hexogonal riser hole for a treelimb premium quiver to be mounted to it? The riser mount is listed as the 2013 hoyt style hexagon and is it the same for 2014


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> I guess it's all this torque thing that I am not really seeing. There has been a lot of the fixed roller guards go through my tuning and really see no evidence at all that it causes issues.
> Now if it were the owner of the company that you claim, yep I would still disagree and say he doesn't really no his own system then. Some how I don't think that's the case.
> 
> Now some can say you are an experienced archer as they do here in AT. However, I have seen so many new archers have zero issues with accuracy and these bows.
> ...


So I know we've debated this ad nauseam in the past and while it would appear this is one issue we butt heads on, I actually think we are arguing slightly different points. Additionally, some here think the issue isn't "real" so I'm going to try one more time on this because I actually think it could play into a real (or perhaps just perceived in your mind) advantage for Hoyt if they were to adapt in this area.

So the cable torque issue that fixed rollers causes is really quite simple. Some want to overcomplicate the basic principle at hand and it's not that complicated. Where it gets complicated is in actually measuring the effect it has and/or trying to convince someone it's actually meaningful enough to even be concerned about (I'll get to that later).

So here's the basic principle. When you shoot any bow other than a shoot-through, the system is pulling the cables to the right (right handed bow) at brace. When you draw the bow, the cables, by design, want to move both backwards and in (left) towards the center of the bow. If they were actually free to do so there would be no additional tension in the system. Obviously, however, they would get in the way of the arrow which is why these systems need to keep them off to the right in some manner. Any cable retention system that keeps the cables from doing what they naturally want to do places tension on the system and causes torque. That torque can play out in different ways, including limb twist, cam lean and riser flex. A traditional cable slide system allows the cables to travel backwards like they naturally want to do but doesn't allow them to travel in (left). The fact that they travel backwards, reduces some of the tension that would otherwise be caused if they weren't allowed to do so. A flex type of system like that used by many of the top archery companies today allows the cables to move inward (left) which reduces some of the tension that would otherwise be in play if they weren't allowed to move to the left. My PSE DNA SP has a flex guard system on it (I use an aftermarket roller guard) which allows the cables to both move backwards (like they want to) and inwards or left (like the want to) therefore it is mitigating the tension in the system to the greatest degree possible. A fixed roller system like Hoyt is presently using, however, fixes the position of the cables and therefore doesn't allow them to move either backwards or inwards (left) so it, by definition, creates the MOST tension and torque in the system of any of the cable guard systems. This is simply FACT. There is no debating this FACT. This has always been my point. We can debate as to how much of a difference that FACT makes from a practical standpoint (I'll get to that) but the design of the system FACTUALLY creates more tension/torque. I, for one, am not a big fan of a system that intentionally creates the most torque possible out of all the available cable retention systems. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as to whether they care or not but that's mine.

Shane, you have always taken the approach of stating anecdotally that you haven't experienced this so called torque and any negative effect of the fixed rollers in tuning all the Hoyts you've tuned. That may be but that's not really a rebuttal to the FACT that the system causes more torque on a relative basis. That's taking a different tact and suggesting that while what I've described above is true (something you've never actually admitted that I recall), it doesn't really matter from a practical standpoint.

That may or may not be true depending on how you look at it. The problem with taking either side on the "practical application" side of the argument is that there aren't definitive ways to scientifically test the real impact of that extra torque on the system. There is no good way to be absolutely sure how much additional limb twist, cam lean or riser flex results. First off, you'd have to have the 2 of the exact same bow other than the cable retention system. In other words you'd need a Faktor 30, for example, built with a fixed roller and one built with some sort of flex system and methods to actually test the relative impact. And even if you could measure that impact, it would be even harder to measure the impact on shootability (such as does the tension in the system create any hold stability or accuracy issues in the average archer). The fact that you can seemingly tune around the fixed roller system or get a bunch of bows to bare shaft without significant pre-lean on the cams in no way proves there aren't underlying issues on a relative basis.

The obvious relative disadvantage on strictly the design of the fixed roller cable retention system and the fact that nobody (not even you Shane) can actually prove scientifically that there is ZERO negative impact from a practical standpoint is enough for me to not be a fan of the design and choose to steer clear of it. Am I being obsessive compulsive about this issue? Probably. But that's the way I look at it.

Now, every bow company does their best to design other aspects of the bow to try to mitigate the negative affects of cable torque in their system. The "cage" in the new Elites is an attempt to mitigate the impact of riser flex. When Hoyt widened the limbs and spacers in the Spyder series in 2013 it was clearly an attempt to further mitigate the negative impact of the cable torque in their system (made worse by the fact that they were using a fixed roller system). In addition, Hoyt has the tec (truss) system on their risers. Granted this was developed WAY before they started using fixed roller guards but they benefit from the riser design because it adds some riser stiffness and resists flex better than say a typical Mathews riser. So there are a lot of things about the current Hoyt bow design that helps to mitigate the negative effect of their fixed roller system. This is why we can tune around the system and not "see" any obvious negative effects from the fixed rollers. It doesn't mean that it's ideal, it just means it's not bad enough that it's very noticeable to most people. That's the point Shane has made all along and I actually agree with it in the sense that for most archers, they won't even understand the impact the fixed rollers might have on a relative basis much less see an actually difference in the tuning or shooting of the bow.

Now, where I think Hoyt has an opportunity is that they already have a system that might best mitigate the impact of cable torque and yet they use a cable retention system that, by it's nature, creates the most amount of cable torque on a relative basis. So just think how stable a system they could have if they kept all of those mitigating design factors and created a bow with a flex slide system (like the PSE system or similar) that reduces inherent torque to the maximum amount on a relative basis. Wow! That would be impressive. I mean, if we can all agree that a shoot through system is the ideal when it comes to no cable induced torque in the system, wouldn't the next best thing be a bow design that inherently resists cable torque to the max based on its design elements and that also uses the optimal cable retention system from a reduced cable torque standpoint on a relative basis?

Add to that the use of 7000 series aluminum which is stiffer and more flex resistant than 6000 series (but far cheaper than carbon) and you even further improve the system. So, if you could imagine for a second the following:

A Hoyt bow with their already strong and twist resistant laminated limbs (maybe a little more pre-loaded to improve string angle relative to ATA and to improve performance/speed a bit) on the present wide platform with the wide spacers that uses a Tec riser made out of 7000 series aluminum, the combination of which resists riser flex like no other system (outside of their high priced carbon risers), a redesigned cam system as Shane describes above that gets a little additional performance (to offset any loss from the flex system - next on the list) and that has an optional limb stop like PSE's Source cam (to give optionality for those that prefer cable stops OR limbs stops) and an optimally designed flex slide/roller system that allows the cables maximum freedom of movement and minimal tension/torque to the system.

Holy Smokes! :darkbeer:Would that not be the most incredible bow ever designed or what? I mean Hoyt would absolutely destroy the competition if they built such a bow and I'd buy one faster than you can say "HOYT". So, with respect to the OP's question, yes, that is what I would like to ideally see from Hoyt. The only thing I might add is that I'd like to see improved finish options - namely the Kolorfusion process, and ideally offer Stormy Hardwoods camo as an option! :wink::darkbeer:


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

@Predator....

You forgot one thing. Unless I'm mistaken: Hoyt introduced/reintroduced fixed yokes a few years back on their hunting bows, to aid in tuning out cam lean & addressing roller torque.
(This ironically happened about the same time that sliders were depreciated, in favor of rollers. ~ Just "food for thought.")

In the market place, for whatever the reason, "Rollers sell" and there's no debating that. But apparently not to competitions shooters. (How many competition bows have rollers?) ~ And as for sliders go, I was told by one shooter that they used to shave the sliders way down thin so that they could "flex." (shaved to the point where they were durability became a concern.) Note: This was prior to the flex systems that are in many bows today.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

BrokenLimbs said:


> @Predator....
> 
> You forgot one thing. Unless I'm mistaken: Hoyt introduced/reintroduced fixed yokes a few years back on their hunting bows, to aid in tuning out cam lean & addressing roller torque.
> (This ironically happened about the same time that sliders were depreciated, in favor of rollers. ~ Just "food for thought.")
> ...


True on the yokes but I just took that point for granted. I've never, ever been a fan of the floating yoke system and since I've always used aftermarket strings I always had the stringmaker do a fixed yoke.

And no, you almost never see a competition archer using a fixed roller system for what I think are obvious reasons. In fact you've seen many competition archers "jerry rig" their cable retention systems with bent rods, shaved rods, torque tamer type deals to address exactly the problem I've reference above. Ironically, the impact that fixed rollers has is typically even worse on short BH bows like most are using for hunting purposes.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Predator said:


> True on the yokes but I just took that point for granted. I've never, ever been a fan of the floating yoke system and since I've always used aftermarket strings I always had the stringmaker do a fixed yoke.
> 
> And no, you almost never see a competition archer using a fixed roller system for what I think are obvious reasons. In fact you've seen many competition archers "jerry rig" their cable retention systems with bent rods, shaved rods, torque tamer type deals to address exactly the problem I've reference above. Ironically, the impact that fixed rollers has is typically even worse on short BH bows like most are using for hunting purposes.


Competition shooters rarely have bows with roller guards because a more traditional longer ATA bow has much more limb travel during the draw cycle, so they almost have to have cable slides. Parallel limb hunting bows have almost no rear travel and can get away with the rollers.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Ironically, the impact that fixed rollers has is typically even worse on short BH bows like most are using for hunting purposes.


Ya, they are so bad it's amazing someone can hit a target. You are really so far off base with these roller guards it's not even funny. 

http://youtu.be/czR-kjqKD7M


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

jmann28 said:


> Competition shooters rarely have bows with roller guards because a more traditional longer ATA bow has much more limb travel during the draw cycle, so they almost have to have cable slides. Parallel limb hunting bows have almost no rear travel and can get away with the rollers.


You are focused on the forward/rearward movement (and you are correct), whereas I'm focused on the lateral movement in my comment. Longer ATA bows could use a roller guard - certainly don't "have" to have a cable slide. I believe part of the reason they aren't designed with fixed rollers is that they aren't trying to drive speed like they are in short hunting rigs. In any case, my point is that the lateral torque is greater with fixed rollers the shorter the ATA is. The angle at which it is pulling the system is more severe and has a greater impact. Taken to an extreme, imagine the lateral torque on a 20" ATA bow with fixed rollers vs. the lateral torque on a 40" ATA bow with fixed rollers.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> You are focused on the forward/rearward movement (and you are correct), whereas I'm focused on the lateral movement in my comment. Longer ATA bows could use a roller guard - certainly don't "have" to have a cable slide. I believe part of the reason they aren't designed with fixed rollers is that they aren't trying to drive speed like they are in short hunting rigs. In any case, my point is that the lateral torque is greater with fixed rollers the shorter the ATA is. The angle at which it is pulling the system is more severe and has a greater impact. Taken to an extreme, imagine the lateral torque on a 20" ATA bow with fixed rollers vs. the lateral torque on a 40" ATA bow with fixed rollers.


So being that it is so severe, can you explain the greater impact ?


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Ya, they are so bad it's amazing someone can hit a target. You are really so far off base with these roller guards it's not even funny.
> 
> http://youtu.be/czR-kjqKD7M


Really? I'm off base and you have it figured out. :icon_1_lol:

You are unbelievable! It's like you don't even get that you don't get it. I'm really shocked. I thought I'd put it in terms even someone with half a brain could understand and was certain you'd be on the same page.

You continue with your diversionary tactics of citing anecdotal situations where you just "don't see" it. Yeah, yeah, I get it - heard it a thousand times from you. Of course it does nothing to address the technical issue at hand - absolutely nothing. The fact that you can shoot one tight 80 yard group with a fixed roller bow doesn't, in any way, remove the reality of the situation. BTW, good shooting. If you could consistently shoot groups like that at 80 yards you've missed your calling. Levi has nothing on you. You should be winning Vegas and 3D events on a regular basis.

So, since I'm off base, please educate me. Please go back to my post 88 and tell me what part of my main point about the technical reality of torque is "off base". Please, please, please convince us all that all else being held equal a fixed roller cable retention system results in the same or less tension/torque to the system than a flex system. Please, pretty please, prove that I'm wrong on this. Please. I'm not holding my breath because it can't be done but I'd really, really love to see you try.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> So being that it is so severe, can you explain the greater impact ?


It's "MORE" severe, not "SO" severe. Quit changing my wording. It's all relative and I've clearly explained the impact in post 88. Still waiting for you too prove the technical reality explained there to be something other than a reality. :darkbeer:


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Really? I'm off base and you have it figured out. :icon_1_lol:
> 
> You are unbelievable! It's like you don't even get that you don't get it. I'm really shocked. I thought I'd put it in terms even someone with half a brain could understand and was certain you'd be on the same page.
> 
> ...


I could careless about brand here but you have failed to give any negative effect to Hoyts static roller guard. You say it has excessive torque but you can't explain the negatives to it. You have not even owned a 2014 to even say what needs improving LOL.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

If it had so much side load why can you tune them to this pre lean ? Oh, wait a minute you have owned a 2014 to know LOL


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## WT-assasin (Nov 27, 2012)

Wow people have serious agendas. All I know is I love shooting my bow and it drives tacks. I shoot this short ata bow with roller guards better than a shot my last bow which was longer Ata and did not have rollers. Lighten up and have fun. Take a kid hunting or something


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> I could careless about brand here but you have failed to give any negative effect to Hoyts static roller guard. You say it has excessive torque but you can't explain the negatives to it. You have not even owned a 2014 to even say what needs improving LOL.


That's about what I thought. You aren't even going to attempt to disprove the reality I've shared in post #88 because you know you'd only look silly trying. By the way, I did own a 2013 and you've said yourself they essentially tune the same - I mean they changed next to nothing and certainly not the fixed rollers. You keep wanting to base your entire position on the fact that you just don't see a negative impact in your many experiences tuning the bow. Blah, Blah, Blah. Again, it does NOTHING to refute the reality of the additional torque fixed rollers cause on a relative basis. If you actually read post #88 you'd see I gave credence to the fact that Hoyt's design mitigates a good deal of the additional torque/stress the fixed rollers cause and that with a yoked hybrid system you can absolutely tune your way around it. That does nothing to change the technical reality involved and again, IMO is less than ideal.

Still waiting......:darkbeer:


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> If it had so much side load why can you tune them to this pre lean ? Oh, wait a minute you have owned a 2014 to know LOL


LOL!!! Still waiting.......


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Predator said:


> So I know we've debated this ad nauseam in the past and while it would appear this is one issue we butt heads on, I actually think we are arguing slightly different points. Additionally, some here think the issue isn't "real" so I'm going to try one more time on this because I actually think it could play into a real (or perhaps just perceived in your mind) advantage for Hoyt if they were to adapt in this area.
> 
> So the cable torque issue that fixed rollers causes is really quite simple. Some want to overcomplicate the basic principle at hand and it's not that complicated. Where it gets complicated is in actually measuring the effect it has and/or trying to convince someone it's actually meaningful enough to even be concerned about (I'll get to that later).
> 
> ...



Where's your scientific data on all your claims....because what you say is obvious, doesn't seem so obvious to hoyt

Your super knowledge of cable systems and overall bow technology should be shared with the Hoyt RnD department....aperantly they have no clue what there doing... according to you.


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## whack n stack (Dec 23, 2007)

For 2015, I'd like to see cams again that don't feel locked up like Elite binary cams. These have too much valley imo. The Z5 is a big step backwards imo. It's the first year I will not own a Hoyt in MANY years. 

I'm prolly the only one not liking the Z5 valley lol.


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## Bow Only (Feb 1, 2004)

whack n' stack said:


> For 2015, I'd like to see cams again that don't feel locked up like Elite binary cams. These have too much valley imo. The Z5 is a big step backwards imo. It's the first year I will not own a Hoyt in MANY years.
> 
> I'm prolly the only one not liking the Z5 valley lol.


You should be able to adjust the valley on their cams next year.


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## bornagain (Mar 24, 2005)

whack n' stack said:


> For 2015, I'd like to see cams again that don't feel locked up like Elite binary cams. These have too much valley imo. The Z5 is a big step backwards imo. It's the first year I will not own a Hoyt in MANY years.
> 
> I'm prolly the only one not liking the Z5 valley lol.


I'm right with you although you can tune it out IMHO still not worth the speed they lost this year at the expense of the valley.


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## bornagain (Mar 24, 2005)

Bow Only said:


> You should be able to adjust the valley on their cams next year.



You can do it this year, however still not worth it.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

BowHuntnKY said:


> Where's your scientific data on all your claims....because what you say is obvious, doesn't seem so obvious to hoyt
> 
> Your super knowledge of cable systems and overall bow technology should be shared with the Hoyt RnD department....aperantly they have no clue what there doing... according to you.


It's simple physics my friend. Are you saying you actually don't understand the reality of the fact that a fixed roller system, all else being equal, creates more stress on the system? I mean seriously? This is not a hard concept to understand.

And it already has been shared with the Hoyt R&D department. If you read this entire thread you would have seen where I already had communications (It was just about a year ago) with one of the top technical guys at Hoyt where I shared this concern and he CONFIRMED, without question, that it creates more torque but he also said it created more speed and that Hoyt felt they had designed enough mitigating features and that you could tune around it sufficiently to not have it be a major concern. He said it would be ideal if they got rid of fixed rollers but that it might be a while. I suspect they will eventually go to a flex system but we'll see. It was also shared earlier that Darin Cooper clearly has the same opinion on fixed rollers. So we now have two top representatives from Hoyt that agree with the obvious (and I'm quite certain there are more).


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## grousegrove (Aug 8, 2013)

For 2015 I'd like to see a higher percentage of threads that take a much less hubristic lean, posters less prone to unwarranted torque and a greater natural ability to track on target and hold in a nice valley, and some innovation in what even a casual AT reader will quickly see seem to be the same never ending pedantic debates. With respect to people's deep knowledge and experience and informed opinions, conveying it from a respectful place is always going to be more conducive to archers helping archers. Otherwise, too much that is of value to a lot of people gets drowned out. The mere mortals who follow these discussions do not need to be expert tuners to clearly recognize when egos become the only thing sustaining a debate. 

I have discovered AT is a great thing, but it could be better. 

As for Hoyt: in my humble opinion they're consistently great bows. I almost bought another this year. The only thing that held me back really was the new-bow price of the model I was looking at, and the fact that I found another bow that fit my needs very well.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Predator said:


> It's simple physics my friend. Are you saying you actually don't understand the reality of the fact that a fixed roller system, all else being equal, creates more stress on the system? I mean seriously? This is not a hard concept to understand.
> 
> And it already has been shared with the Hoyt R&D department. If you read this entire thread you would have seen where I already had communications (It was just about a year ago) with one of the top technical guys at Hoyt where I shared this concern and he CONFIRMED, without question, that it creates more torque but he also said it created more speed and that Hoyt felt they had designed enough mitigating features and that you could tune around it sufficiently to not have it be a major concern. He said it would be ideal if they got rid of fixed rollers but that it might be a while. I suspect they will eventually go to a flex system but we'll see. It was also shared earlier that Darin Cooper clearly has the same opinion on fixed rollers. So we now have two top representatives from Hoyt that agree with the obvious (and I'm quite certain there are more).


Where's the data or scientific evidence that the rollers make the bows less accurate or impossible to tune?


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Never claimed this. You need to read a little more carefully.


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## RogBow (May 21, 2013)

I shot my bow alot before I converted it to a bent rod slide system. 

The increase in *forgiveness*, *shootability*, and *feel* is significant.

I was on the fence of ditching this Hoyt before the conversion, but after seeing the much improved results I shall keep it, it's worth keeping now. I am able to tune with a full spine lower, I have versatility. 


I would like to see a parallel limb, 6.5" to 7" BH, 7000 series Al, no air shox, cable slide or flex or even an adjustable roller system you could tune for minimum fletch clearance, durable paint with low glare on hunting models, Z bearings, premium string set, 32/33" ATA. 


I am interested in seeing Rolo's results of his conversion.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

I'm "just a hunter" but I have to agree on the roller torque issue. Hoyt may have done an exceptional job of "mitigating roller induced torque", but nevertheless: Counteracting the additional torque of a non-flexible roller design was a necessity in doing so. (Whatever Hoyt does with their bows, it appears to be working. But it's still not an "optimum" design by any means.) Slides that "slides back" relieve pressure. In comparison: A fixed roller (already pulling forward on the cables at rest as is the case with the Hoyt bows) cannot do anything but increase pressure "outside the shooting plane."

Merely looking at a Hoyt bow (at rest), it is apparent that the rollers already have some pre-load on the rollers. And this "pull" obviously increases as the bow is drawn. (Fortunately, it looks as if a percentage of this force is vectored in the same direction the bow is "trying to shoot.") Even so, the remainder of this force is still pulling to the side. And the more the bow is drawn, the higher the unwanted "off-plane torque.")

One way Mathews helps to "mitigate" this roller torque is via it's "reverse assist" design. Others do it with flex. While others do it with design that appears to always keep the cables centered with nominal pull (either way) against/around the rollers, for instance a Bear Carnage. ~ Of course, the "old-school" way of managing torque is to have a rod & slider, or even better: An angled or even shaved rod & slider (which the latter is in essence creates a "flex" system.)

From a design/simplicity standpoint, I personally like the g5prime design better than the ones I own/owned/am familiar with. ~ Minimal front/rear tension, adjustable flex tension & no bearings/rollers to make noise / wear. On that note: The new g5 bows are nice bows and have some very appealing engineering, but I find the draw cycles to be dry (I don't care for the valley either.) Finally, their grips just don't "feel right" to me. ~ These are just my OPINIONS though. (And because of the reasons stated above, I have never owned a Prime.)

Also: Anyone who is not concerned with the "roller torque" has never likely been faced with the challenge/necessity of removing cables from a roller's track to add spacers/bushings & then "reassemble the assembly" using bare hands (without using a bow press.) It can be extremely difficult due to all the side pressure required to both seat them (in the tracks) and hold them in place where they belong. I had to do this on a new bow several (~5) years ago because the rollers generated so much side torque they shifted and clicked after ever shot! (Before adding thin spacers, I had to forcefully push them between my index finger and thumb after each shot just to keep them quiet during draw. And it was still (usually) impossible to let the bow down without them clicking/ticking even after adding the spacer!) This bow also suffered from "tunability" issues, presumably partially due to all the side torque introduced into the system. Needless to say this bow is "long gone." ~ Original selling dealer actually treated me very "generously" on trade-in value, given the circumstances (which I did NOT hide from them.)


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## WT-assasin (Nov 27, 2012)

Wow got some serious engineers in the house that should be employed by the long standing bow companies that obviously have no idea what they are doing... Some people aren't happy unless the are criticizing.. I'm not giving this thread another minute of my time.. I'll be shooting my poorly designed bow and having fun doing it LMAO


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

WT-assasin said:


> Wow got some serious engineers in the house that should be employed by the long standing bow companies that obviously have no idea what they are doing... Some people aren't happy unless the are criticizing.. I'm not giving this thread another minute of my time.. I'll be shooting my poorly designed bow and having fun doing it LMAO


That's the problem with a/t. People tend to take offence when they don't agree, and then become defensive. (Seriously, what's the point in "jumping on" those with different viewpoints and opinions anyways?)
Looking back at most of the posts on this thread, I didn't see too many posts criticizing the brand. I also didn't see one single post containing statements indicating "your bow was poorly designed either."

Most of the posts on a/t pages may not be by physicists, scientists &/or mechanical engineers. But some are either "highly experienced", "highly educated" (or both)..... (Customers/loyal users with enough wisdom & common sense that they could likely teach a few "tricks" to the manufacturers.) *~ Although as I stated earlier, I doubt it's the engineers who call the shots, it's the "bean-counters.*"


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## WT-assasin (Nov 27, 2012)

I have owned PSE Mathews elite and now Hoyt .. And have been in archery since 1990. I am not offended and not being defensive.. Just tired of the endless blah blah blah. Not to mention a few people offering their opinions are well known Hoyt bashers. In the end .. Who cares as long as the bow shoots great and satisfies the individual who owns it...it is all personal preference..opinions are all good but sometimes some people try forcing their opinions down peoples throats.


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## WT-assasin (Nov 27, 2012)

Voice your opinion and move on... That's what I am going to do... Happy hunting and shooting to you all👍


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

WT-assasin said:


> I have owned PSE Mathews elite and now Hoyt .. And have been in archery since 1990. I am not offended and not being defensive.. Just tired of the endless blah blah blah. Not to mention a few people offering their opinions are well known Hoyt bashers. In the end .. Who cares as long as the bow shoots great and satisfies the individual who owns it...it is all personal preference..opinions are all good but sometimes some people try forcing their opinions down peoples throats.


I agree. What matters is how the bow shoots, feels, performs for the individual. (Of course durability is important too.)
I think it's fair to state that most companies have built some great bows. But also, some "not so great" ones too.....


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

Predator said:


> Never claimed this. You need to read a little more carefully.


Then what's the point of your rants? If they aren't less accurate or un tuneable then what does it matter if the rollers induce slightly more torque?


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

jmann28 said:


> Then what's the point of your rants? If they aren't less accurate or un tuneable then what does it matter if the rollers induce slightly more torque?


LOL. You've obviously forgotten the point of this thread.

No rants. The point of this thread was for people to suggest what they'd like to see on 2015 Hoyts. I merely listed a few improvements I'd like to see, one of which was getting rid of the fixed rollers. It was then that Shane, in his never ended and never prevailing crusade to convince the world that fixed rollers are as good as any other system out there, jumped on my suggestion and turned it into yet another debate. He is so obsessed with it that he had to go start another thread on the subject to once again try to prove his point. He once again lost. He hasn't even come back on this thread to demonstrate the error of my ways because he can't. Check mate. Case closed.

And while you can tune around them, I don't think you should have to. And I never said they might not affect accuracy - there is certainly the potential for this but I can't prove it (just like nobody can prove it doesn't). I had a Spyder Turbo and I didn't like them at all. Yes, I was able to tune it, get it shooting bullets etc. But the lateral torque was so much that one of my high priced sights wouldn't even go far enough left to get the bow on target. In comparison to my Invasion (now sold) and my PSE DNA's (all with flex systems) there was a big difference in how they tuned. They all tuned and they can all be shot accurately but I strongly prefer the flex system over fixed rollers. I'm a Hoyt fan and have owned and shot quite a few but I won't own another Hoyt until they get rid of fixed rollers. Silly? Perhaps to you but it's my choice and so when asked what we'd like to see out of Hoyt in 2015, dropping the fixed rollers is right at the top of my list.


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## ChappyHOYT (Feb 26, 2009)

Preds going to have an ulcer over this Hoyt Roller guard thing. Geesh. Shoot what you want. IF you don't like their gaurds shoot something else, which you do. Plenty of systems out there.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

ChappyHOYT said:


> Preds going to have an ulcer over this Hoyt Roller guard thing. Geesh. Shoot what you want. IF you don't like their gaurds shoot something else, which you do. Plenty of systems out there.


Maybe, but the "lack of a flex system" (or the equivalent) is the reason that (having just bought another brand) I'm not upset not having had the opportunity to shoot a LH 70# 2014 Hoyt with the #2 cams. (dealer had the bow, just not the mods for LH 27.5 in. draw) Given the chance, Hoyt was a contender & might have come home with me. So this "flex thing" (with or without merit) is undoubtedly having an impact on sales for Hoyt. (Just wait and see, they'll have a new system next year. I'd almost put money on it.)

Someday I will end up shooting (owning) a Hoyt. I love their risers, and as of 2013 (the RKT cams) they had a decent draw cycle and valley available for "70# short draw shooters." (#2 cams)
Prior to 2013 models, the #3 cams felt (IMHO) much better to shoot than the #2's. Being "on the edge" (a 27.5 in. draw), I can almost get a way with their #3 setups, (but not quite.)

Funny thing is: I ended up with a Mathews Chill-R. Prior to this, I owned a z7. AND I never EVER cared for the brand much. (probably an understatement) ~ But I REALLY liked just about everything about that Chill-R bow. I just hope I can shoot it as well/consistently as anticipated. (Only time will tell whether I made the right choice.)


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## rolyat008 (Aug 6, 2010)

I really think the whole reason some members rant about the roller guards (as I have done as well) is just out of hope that maybe someone with some authority at Hoyt will read or hear about all the comments and lost sales and make a change to their design. It's not because people want to bash Hoyt. I for one really like the feel of Hoyt bows. I shoot them really well and would like to own a new one, but I simply refuse to do so with a design that can cause tuning issues. I had a crx 32 that required the top cam to be scary sideways to tune... Bottom cam that flops around like a fish... No thanks.


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## bcycle (Feb 22, 2006)

To each there own. All of these systems work great as long as they are consistent as in repeatable. It's good to have different engineering solutions to choose from. IMO


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## DeAdEye15 (Sep 28, 2013)

Can anyone explain why I'm at any disadvantage with my fixed roller guard when it drives tacks, tunes perfectly, has less wear on the cables, is super smooth, plenty fast, and did I mention accurate? If a system induces more torque than another system but still shoots and tunes beautifully and the manufacture has took care of any possible issues where is the problem? If you can shoot accurately and the system is smooth why complain? Isn't this the ultimate goal of every bow manufacturer and bow shooter? 
Predator, your complaints are pointless and result in no negatives to the end result. Why would you complain about something that works fine, and is super accurate. With parallel limbs there is hardly any front to back movement of the cables, they mainly move up and down, so they can get by with the fixed roller and have it be beneficial. Plenty of proof has been introduced to show the fixed roller works fine with *THIS* setup on *THESE* particular models (anyone who has had success with there fixed roller Hoyt and shot them accurately). If you can't get over this tiny difference in design there are always other options (the same old same old), but to preach for days about how everyone who owns a fixed roller Hoyt is at some kind of disadvantage is unfounded.
The new Hoyts are amazing, great looking, and accurate designs. Slam the design all you want, we'll all continue to benefit from it. We've heard and understand your perspective, when it comes to this particular model they've engineered around it and it works.


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## .BuckHunt. (May 12, 2008)

DeAdEye15 said:


> Can anyone explain why I'm at any disadvantage with my fixed roller guard when it drives tacks, tunes perfectly, has less wear on the cables, is super smooth, plenty fast, and did I mention accurate?


You aren't at a disadvantage. If it works for you great. However, imagine the bow even just a little better. 
That said I'm in the process of selling my bow and picking up a used matrix 3G. I just really like the specs and how it feels to me. I'll probably shoot it with the roller guard, and maybe when I get the chance convert it over to an angled cable slide, just to see which I like better.


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## cmullane1234 (Oct 10, 2014)

Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.


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## enkriss (Apr 10, 2009)

cmullane1234 said:


> Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.


December?


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## Jnmoor00 (Aug 9, 2011)

I like the faktors looks does it shoot well I know that Hoyt's don't allow for any creep....same here with faktor


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## outd00rs14 (Oct 10, 2014)

maybe next year they will drill limb bolts in the center of the riser!!!


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## florida life (Sep 28, 2014)

outd00rs14 said:


> maybe next year they will drill limb bolts in the center of the riser!!!


Lmfao


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## ridgehunter70 (Sep 30, 2012)

outd00rs14 said:


> maybe next year they will drill limb bolts in the center of the riser!!!


And fix the limb problems they have!


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## outd00rs14 (Oct 10, 2014)

Come again??


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## outd00rs14 (Oct 10, 2014)

Never mind


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

cmullane1234 said:


> Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.


LOL! What a joke! If Hoyt comes out with bows that truly put Bowtech, Mathews and PSE "out of the game" I'll buy everyone on AT a new Hoyt of their choice. Hoyt makes solid bows but they never have and never will put any other reputable bow company "out of the game". Keep in mind that I've easily owned more Hoyt bows over the years than any other brand so certainly not a Hoyt hater - just living in reality here. I suspect they'll have about the same market share for 2015 as they did for 2014.


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

Predator said:


> LOL! What a joke! If Hoyt comes out with bows that truly put Bowtech, Mathews and PSE "out of the game" I'll buy everyone on AT a new Hoyt of their choice. Hoyt makes solid bows but they never have and never will put any other reputable bow company "out of the game". Keep in mind that I've easily owned more Hoyt bows over the years than any other brand so certainly not a Hoyt hater - just living in reality here. I suspect they'll have about the same market share for 2015 as they did for 2014.


agreed..............


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## buckhunter2705 (Feb 10, 2010)

I just wish I had my old hoyt katera I sold. That was one of the most accurate Hoyt's I've ever owned.


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## Goathollerbucks (Aug 29, 2011)

cmullane1234 said:


> Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.


And your first post is a dandy


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## goodoleboy11 (Apr 23, 2013)

cmullane1234 said:


> Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.


I just LOLed. Heck of a first post kid [emoji106][emoji23]


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

cmullane1234 said:


> Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.


If by hiring Michael Waddell to pimp your stuff, turning a tennis racquet into a bow, and finding two of the most ridiculously huge tame deer to use in a commercial didn't put all of the other bow companies "out of the game completely", then I highly doubt making a bow ALMOST as fast as the XLR8, RPM, and Full Throttle will.

But I agree, aggressive first post young man! Well done! :darkbeer:


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## PSE 2374 (Dec 15, 2013)

Predator said:


> LOL! What a joke! If Hoyt comes out with bows that truly put Bowtech, Mathews and PSE "out of the game" I'll buy everyone on AT a new Hoyt of their choice. Hoyt makes solid bows but they never have and never will put any other reputable bow company "out of the game". Keep in mind that I've easily owned more Hoyt bows over the years than any other brand so certainly not a Hoyt hater - just living in reality here. I suspect they'll have about the same market share for 2015 as they did for 2014.


Just in case it happens, I want to be put on the list for a free bow.


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## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

cmullane1234 said:


> Hey guys im new to archery talk. Im 15 and work in a bow shop so i have a good knowledge of bows. Hoyt came in to talk to us about the new bows. They claim by december there gonna have something that will put bow tech and mathews and pse out of the game completely. They gave us some specs they designed a new cam which is the smoothest yet, fastest, and has the best let off. they claim 350 on their speed bow this year. Cant wait to see it i will keep you guys posted.



I'm 12 and I'm the product engineer from Hoyt and I can totally confirm this!!!1!!111!!


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## goodoleboy11 (Apr 23, 2013)

rattlinman said:


> If by hiring Michael Waddell to pimp your stuff, turning a tennis racquet into a bow, and finding two of the most ridiculously huge tame deer to use in a commercial didn't put all of the other bow companies "out of the game completely", then I highly doubt making a bow ALMOST as fast as the XLR8, RPM, and Full Throttle will.
> 
> But I agree, aggressive first post young man! Well done! :darkbeer:


Lmao! Rattlinman, I heard waddells new hoyt bow is called the "twerkdaddy" by another AT member! I about spit my coffee out when I read it yesterday!


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## CambowAZ (Mar 15, 2014)

Hmmm… there are other brands in the game…? 

Other than Hoyt…? 

Whaaaa…?


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## MOBOW#1 (Jun 14, 2005)

Some one needs to take a Happy Pill!!! Seems as if ain't no one happy any more


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## Wil (Aug 13, 2009)

I love my Hoyts... But that is a pretty ludicrous statement. Seriously... What kind of bow would they have to come out with to put pretty much every other company out of the game? Prime parallel cams, with a super slick elite type draw, a valley that is adjustable from nothing to the bow practically holds itself, ibo speeds around 270-280 fps, a carbon riser, with true zero hand shock, and quieter than a mouse fart... All that for around $599 and yea, I could see the other companies sweating bullets. 

What does everyone else think? What would you need to see in a bow to make you forget about every other bow on the market and buy bow "x" ?


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## Muzzy61 (Oct 22, 2007)

PSE 2374 said:


> Just in case it happens, I want to be put on the list for a free bow.


Me too. :wink:


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Cha cha cha


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## goodoleboy11 (Apr 23, 2013)

Wil said:


> I love my Hoyts... But that is a pretty ludicrous statement. Seriously... What kind of bow would they have to come out with to put pretty much every other company out of the game? Prime parallel cams, with a super slick elite type draw, a valley that is adjustable from nothing to the bow practically holds itself, ibo speeds around 270-280 fps, a carbon riser, with true zero hand shock, and quieter than a mouse fart... All that for around $599 and yea, I could see the other companies sweating bullets.
> 
> What does everyone else think? What would you need to see in a bow to make you forget about every other bow on the market and buy bow "x" ?


The kids 15 and probably a young fanboy going off his first post. The rep probably said "it's our fastest bow yet and really smooth" and in his mind it was "hoyt is putting everyone out of business this year" lmao. 

Every rep over hypes their product. It's their job. Just like the mathews creed was smoother than the helium, not. Or the elite synergy is smoother than the energys, not. (That assumption is going off others I've heard who have shot the synergy)

It would have to be shooting 400 Fps with a 7 inch brace height to put all of the archery companies out of business.


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## KiwiJim (May 7, 2013)

goodoleboy11 said:


> It would have to be shooting 400 Fps with a 7 inch brace height to put all of the archery companies out of business.


at a $99 price point... made in the USA, with a un-conditional lifetime warranty. Distrubuted at walmart, kmart, bp, cableas, target, gas stations and grocery stores. if you can do all those things then sure, it'll put the others out for the game.


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## goodoleboy11 (Apr 23, 2013)

KiwiJim said:


> at a $99 price point... made in the USA, with a un-conditional lifetime warranty. Distrubuted at walmart, kmart, bp, cableas, target, gas stations and grocery stores. if you can do all those things then sure, it'll put the others out for the game.


Bingo! Lol


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Two words

Hostile Takeover

It's the only legal way to put all others out of business.

Cartel Hit

the other way to put em all out of business!


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## cdmorten (Nov 23, 2006)

Release date is tomorrow...Oct 14. I have a source that said there will be some new risers and at least one new cam. That's all I know.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

cdmorten said:


> Release date is tomorrow...Oct 14. I have a source that said there will be some new risers and at least one new cam. That's all I know.


Yep all new cam with all new mods...


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

So midnight tonight ???


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## mccoppinb (Aug 14, 2012)

In.


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## Allenbd (May 23, 2011)

Predator said:


> LOL! What a joke! If Hoyt comes out with bows that truly put Bowtech, Mathews and PSE "out of the game" I'll buy everyone on AT a new Hoyt of their choice. Hoyt makes solid bows but they never have and never will put any other reputable bow company "out of the game". Keep in mind that I've easily owned more Hoyt bows over the years than any other brand so certainly not a Hoyt hater - just living in reality here. I suspect they'll have about the same market share for 2015 as they did for 2014.


Somebody with a brain....nice!


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## BeastofEast (Sep 19, 2011)

there was some pictures up already on at. but they were warned and i believe they were all deleted and maybe the thread was to?


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## enkriss (Apr 10, 2009)

BeastofEast said:


> there was some pictures up already on at. but they were warned and i believe they were all deleted and maybe the thread was to?


Fake


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## hoytrulez (Jul 27, 2009)

Tick tock Tick tock!


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## ArcheryRoad (Jan 23, 2012)

Being released during the hoyt sales mtg so probably won't see pics til after noon


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Innn


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## nismomike (Feb 16, 2014)

Inn


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## nismomike (Feb 16, 2014)




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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Interchangeable grip. That cool


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## enkriss (Apr 10, 2009)

Adjustable cable slide...nice!


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## axeforce6 (Sep 15, 2010)

enkriss said:


> Adjustable cable slide...nice!
> 
> View attachment 2061973


Nice touch


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## river rat23 (Aug 8, 2014)

itll take some time to warm up to the shoot thru risers


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## bcowette (Jan 11, 2007)

Is this the bow that's going to change the world?


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## TwentySix (Feb 25, 2011)

Look those two things, as well as modules for spirals are huge in the target world. If they bring that to an affordable hunting platform, game over.


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## mccoppinb (Aug 14, 2012)




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## BeastofEast (Sep 19, 2011)

Man. That is one ugly looking bow.


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## enkriss (Apr 10, 2009)

I think it looks badass!


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## OasisPlus (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm still using a 1998 vintage hoyt:

Use it up.
Wear it out.
Make it last
or do without.


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## macnimation (Nov 30, 2010)

So for 2015 they renamed the Pro Comp elite the Podium X, added an ArcTec CableGuard and did something to the grip...oh and added 10 Color options now. Marketing kicks in and once again, it is the best bow they have ever made....


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## Q2DEATH (May 12, 2003)

So all we're going to hear about now is how they're copying Elite with those risers. I'm still a hold out on the roller guards, I do not like them.


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## Roo223 (Mar 7, 2013)

I think they look pretty damn good myself. I'm definitely gonna have to shoot the Turbo. new cam new look new roller guard and ata speed is 350 that's like 355 Ibo speeds that's smoking fast. Not the fastest bow out there but it does have a 6 inch brace height. Probably gonna be a stiff draw cycle all the way through though. Still gotta shoot one


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## dhom (Jun 10, 2008)

Hard to say what's good, bad, what will work, what won't work without ever shooting one. Yet sounds like we have a lot of guys who have shot them by the sounds of it.


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## ChappyHOYT (Feb 26, 2009)

Those cables still look to have quite a bit of tension on them; even with the new guard. Gotta keep the speed up somehow.


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## tuchesuavae (Oct 15, 2014)

I just saw the 2015 and they awesome actually.


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