# ATTN: NY Big Game Hunters - Big Surprise May Be Coming!!



## doctariAFC

As many NY hunters know, efforts over the past few years to secure an early muzzleloader season in NY's Southern Zone have been ongoing. The biggest issue every hunter has had with this push for the early ML season has been the timing, which would effectively plop a firearms deer season right smack dab in the heart of early archery.

NO FREAKIN' WAY


However, we have come to an amicable solution to deliver the hunters of NYS an early ML season in southern zone, while not infringing on bowhunters or the archery season....  

This one has support from the Big Game Committee, although the amended resolution does still allow use of inlines and scopes.

Antlerless only 7-day season for MLs only - 

Sept. 24-30

Use any leftover tags EXCEPT DMPs.

Biologically, no problems at all. Deer management wise, could become a very effective antlerless management tool, and indeed may be the ticket to reducing the buck to doe ratios during the right time of year - BEFORE PRE-RUT. Fawns are already browsing for 4-6 weeks, so no issues seen on that front. Two week cooldown between end of Sept and start of archery season met with NYB approval (yes, they voted to support the recommended amendments). 

Above all, considering the impact to be minimal on the herds, this delivers an added value to hunters in NY's Southern Zone, as if you hold an ML license and have a leftover tag (excluding DMP) you will have the opportunity to use these up rather than simply making tag soup.

The ball is rolling, and we need to start the support now. This can be done through DEC regulation changes, rather than legislative action.

I am here to answer questions, concerns and provide any info that I can.

The hard work begins now!


----------



## Tax Lawyer

I am for it. 

Is this for 2008?


----------



## NY911

Interesting - especially since I am thinking about investing in a smoke pole...

BUT...would archery gear be allowed as well during this time frame?


----------



## Tax Lawyer

NYBowhunter911 said:


> BUT...would archery gear be allowed as well during this time frame?


Dan.....I doubt it (even though that makes zero sense).


----------



## NY911

Tax Lawyer said:


> Dan.....I doubt it (even though that makes zero sense).



I figured that - kinda like last night when the clerk at Stewart's would not sell me Skoal without ID to prove that I am 18, but sold me lotto tickets....


----------



## doctariAFC

NYBowhunter911 said:


> Interesting - especially since I am thinking about investing in a smoke pole...
> 
> BUT...would archery gear be allowed as well during this time frame?


No, no archery gear during this season.

This is for real, folks. The amended resolution is in. I am cautiously optimistic that this one will happen. I don't know about getting this done for this coming September, but perhaps if we make enough noise and show some large support through letters and emails and phone calls, there may be a slight outside chance.

We'll need to start getting our letters of support in very soon.

Any other Q's, feel free to ask.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin

I don't like the September part. Make it the first week of October so you are dealing with ONE license


----------



## vonottoexperien

I'd like to see archery tackle included


----------



## doctariAFC

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> I don't like the September part. Make it the first week of October so you are dealing with ONE license


You are dealing with one license - last years' which expires on Sept 30 (license year runs Oct 1-Sept 30). This gives you an additional chance on the money you spent last year to still fill a tag on an antlerless deer before the new license takes effect. Of course, if yoiu've already filled your tags, you must wait for the next license year.

Look at it this way - Northern Zone early archery season commences in late September, same conditions. If you do not have leftover tags, you must wait until October 1. 

First week of October puts the MLers in conflict with bird hunters and small game hunters. September season only conflicts with squirrel hunters, who are already using single projectiles in the woods.

One reason we haven't considered archery in with this is safety. My 2nd Biggest objection to injecting early ML into archery season was the safety concerrns. Foliage on trees and a lot of hunters in the woods in camo (archers, turkey hunters, bear hunters, grouse hunters, rabbit hunters, pheasant hunters). September presents no such dangers, and with only conflict being with squirrel hunters, their numbers are minimal.


----------



## NY911

Doc - the safety issue is a good point - and one of the biggest points the NYB raised to combat the "silly season" proppsed a few years back - BUT...

What is the difference if I am in the woods hunting with a muzzloader or if I am carrying my Bowtech?


----------



## doctariAFC

NYBowhunter911 said:


> Doc - the safety issue is a good point - and one of the biggest points the NYB raised to combat the "silly season" proppsed a few years back - BUT...
> 
> What is the difference if I am in the woods hunting with a muzzloader or if I am carrying my Bowtech?


No major difference in my eyes, beyond effectiveness of management.

Let me explain how this went down (as I am Region 9 Rep)

We had two resolutions before the Big Game Committee this past April 12. One came from Erie County (my Federation) and the other from Delaware County. Both resolutions intruded on early archery, same targeted week. Delaware County's(R4) proposal would be flintlock only, but for any deer (antlered or antlerless). Erie County's resolution provided for all MLs and sights, 44 cal or larger, same stupid week in October, but for ANTLERLESS ONLY deer.

After we had shot both of these down, pretty much unanimously, my colleague from region 8, myself and DEC biologist Jermey Hurst had a conversation concerning moving the weekto end of Sept. Hurst indicated zero issues biologicaslly and no impact on deer management (provided no DMPs to be used). 

We motioned that if we amend the resolution to reflect the season change, would the big game committee go for it? NYMLA wanted flintlock only. I got the compromise for flintlock and caplock, open sights, no scopes.

NYB made no suggestion for including archery equipment, as it is recognized that the MLers do not have a season for themselves, not even in the dead of winter, while bowhunters have LOTS of days in the woods without firearms intrusion for most of it (small gamers notwithstanding). 

NYB supported the recommended amendments. In fact, the support of the NYSCC Big Game Committee was UNANIMOUS!

When I brought this back to Elma Conservation, the club that proposed the resolution, they balked at the inline and scope sights prohibition and delivered some solid points backing up their position. They did however agree to move the season dates (after much prodding due to inability to understand plain english) and also rescind their use of DMPs in the process.

Now we are moving forward, and we believe this is the best chance, including ML to secure this added value to southern zone hunters, while providing the DEC with much needed additional antlerless management, although this management will be more slowly accomplished over time - better for herds and habitat.


I hope tghat clarifies how this came about, and the fact that NYB supported without demands for archery, the compromise on season dates.

We'll see about the inlines. I expect some resistence, but, if we really look at the facts and dynamics, I think that possible objection can be readily overcome.


----------



## NY911

Interesting. Good news as I see it......


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin

Why do we need this season ? What's the purpose of this season ? I hunt with all legal weapons bow, shotgun,rifle and my muzzleloader. I use my muzzleloader during the shotgun season everyday it is NOT raining, why do I need another season ? My muzzleloader has double the effective killing range of my shotgun so there is no reason if you are a MZ fan that you can't use that during your particular gun season. I see no reason to add another season. I can see a lot abuse with so called lost licenses also. Someone kills there deer during the fall season and come September they go back and get a replacement for there lost license. I know the MZ guys want a season in prime time also but this is just a band-aid to appeal to a few. I for one am against it.
Also I just read your latest post. How can this Doe only season not effect Deer management ? The DMPs have allready been allocated and most have been issued by that time. Also this whole thing seems [the way you have written it] to be something that you and your club and a few other people have decided is best for all of us.


----------



## doctariAFC

NYBowhunter911 said:


> Interesting. Good news as I see it......


Yes, and surprising. Region 8 is all over it! 

We will need to support this one, vocally. I think its high time hunters of Southern Zone NYS actually receive a freaking value for that hunting license spend. More tags are not a value if you have no time to fill 'em! 

And plucking some skinheads in advance of the rut would actually reduce the buck to doe ratios before the rut! That'll get them bucks moving anfd battling a bit more, at least I believe so. Mark Kandel, our Region 9 Wildlife Manager, when I mentioned this potential to him, he said, "Rich, you are onto something!"

My hope, too, is through using the early season as an antlerless management tool, we could, over time see a reduction in the DMP program. We give away way too many DMPs, and the incidental BB harvest is contributing to our lackabucksicus woes. Over time, I am hopeful we can reduce the DMP issuances, and through attrition reduce the BB take. After all, I believe a single shot ML hunter will be a bit more selective on the shot and be better skilled at adult deer identification than the one-day warrior with one in the pipe and 5 in the tube.


----------



## doctariAFC

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> Why do we need this season ? What's the purpose of this season ? I hunt with all legal weapons bow, shotgun,rifle and my muzzleloader. I use my muzzleloader during the shotgun season everyday it is NOT raining, why do I need another season ? My muzzleloader has double the effective killing range of my shotgun so there is no reason if you are a MZ fan that you can't use that during your particular gun season. I see no reason to add another season. I can see a lot abuse with so called lost licenses also. Someone kills there deer during the fall season and come September they go back and get a replacement for there lost license. I know the MZ guys want a season in prime time also but this is just a band-aid to appeal to a few. I for one am against it.


DEC needs the extra help in antlerless deer management. They see this as a potential tool for just that.

In reality, based on current harvest figures, we would be looking at approximately 8,000 - 10,000 antlerless deer harvested during this early season. With an estimated deer population of over 800,000, that's merely a scratch on the surface, but could become very effectiuve especially in areas where deer are a real problem, and those areas do exist.


----------



## Tax Lawyer

No inlines?

If so, I predict a very low participation.


----------



## Meleagris1

So I assume this season would not apply in the bow only areas like Westchester and Albany. Frankly those areas need does killed more than most parts of the state. I would support this new season, but I do think that inlines should be allowed. If its traditional only, then I really can't see the need for sportsman to invest much time and energy promoting something that will end up as little more than a footnote in the season summary. I would rather see the SZ archery season start October 1. 

What NY sportsman really need to do is get the dang youth hunter bills passed. THAT would be something to cheer about.


----------



## three under

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> Why do we need this season ? What's the purpose of this season ? I hunt with all legal weapons bow, shotgun,rifle and my muzzleloader. I use my muzzleloader during the shotgun season everyday it is NOT raining, why do I need another season ? My muzzleloader has double the effective killing range of my shotgun so there is no reason if you are a MZ fan that you can't use that during your particular gun season. I see no reason to add another season. I can see a lot abuse with so called lost licenses also. Someone kills there deer during the fall season and come September they go back and get a replacement for there lost license. I know the MZ guys want a season in prime time also but this is just a band-aid to appeal to a few. I for one am against it.
> Also I just read your latest post. How can this Doe only season not effect Deer management ? The DMPs have allready been allocated and most have been issued by that time. Also this whole thing seems [the way you have written it] to be something that you and your club and a few other people have decided is best for all of us.


Thanks,you saved me alot of typeing. I will not be allowing muzzleloaders on my property untill gun season opens.


----------



## xsmasherj

Iam all for it,what needs to be done?As always Doc your finger is on the pulse of New York hunters.Thanks for that


----------



## Buckblood

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> Why do we need this season ? What's the purpose of this season ? I hunt with all legal weapons bow, shotgun,rifle and my muzzleloader. I use my muzzleloader during the shotgun season everyday it is NOT raining, why do I need another season ? My muzzleloader has double the effective killing range of my shotgun so there is no reason if you are a MZ fan that you can't use that during your particular gun season. I see no reason to add another season. I can see a lot abuse with so called lost licenses also. Someone kills there deer during the fall season and come September they go back and get a replacement for there lost license. I know the MZ guys want a season in prime time also but this is just a band-aid to appeal to a few. I for one am against it.
> Also I just read your latest post. How can this Doe only season not effect Deer management ? The DMPs have allready been allocated and most have been issued by that time. Also this whole thing seems [the way you have written it] to be something that you and your club and a few other people have decided is best for all of us.



I'm not for it.

I live in an area in NY that dosen't have a doe problem.

Why do we need to create a season for ML's? You can use them in gun season if you want or the season that is already in place.

And I ML hunt and love it.


----------



## cynic

doctariAFC This seems like the perfect opportunity to introduce crossbows as an additional weapon for this newly sought season..


----------



## BTARCHER

Thats a great idea! I saw way too many flat heads last year in Central NY! I can't make that season but I'll let family from back in NY know about it!!


----------



## gjs4

just curious how ml guys (and I am one of them- big time) can be the smallest group and get the new season yet we only have 4 weeks for archery despite having significantly more members.

I think it will change the dynamics of the rut and deer activity. Sept has very patternable deer- i think the opportunity for the big boy in the bean field to get sniped is now there. No one can arugue that deer change by 7:30 opening day...if there is enough ml participation..there goes archery season.
just my thoughts...


I love my ml; but will not be partaking- which is as much as my right as somethinking this will solve something/anything. 

Maybe we can open an atlatal season like PA, but in August.

if doe numbers are that high- earn a buck program would work.

Here is THEE Big challange; can someone tell me what the long term goals of the DEC may be (in correlation to deer herds and hunting)?

Please mail that answer to them- because they have no idea.:wink:

sorry for the cyniscism.


----------



## cynic

Uh Oh I see that some are going to feel that others may kill there deer in the woods before them..


----------



## gjs4

if it was a race- why fight it? just particpate

what exactly is a doe problem? buck:doe ratio problem? limit buck harvest numbers would help balance things out then. 
how accurate is the deer herd census? how are areas determined to have a doe problem?


As stated above- lets lower the hunting age; that would be a good change and appreciated by the vast majority.


----------



## Bobmuley

doctariAFC said:


> ....However, we have come to an amicable solution to deliver the hunters of NYS an early ML season in southern zone, while not infringing on bowhunters or the archery season....


I always knew that hunters could work together. Thanks for proving it.

Wish them well.:thumbs_up


----------



## JimPic

Pa. started a ml antlerless season during the archery season a few years ago.Fortunately,we can still bowhunt during that time.The 1st year they had it in place,archers weren't allowed to tag bucks,but they changed that rule for the following year


----------



## doctariAFC

Lots of great questions, thanks much. I think I can answer all of them thus far. Some questions involve legislative answers, while other involve regulation answers (regulation changes do NOT require legislative action)

Let's first take the youth hunting first. Sen Volker's youth bill, which would lower the age for firearms big game hunting to 14 in NYS passed the Senate overwhelmingly (I believe only 2 NO votes). The Senate has never been the problem, rather it is the Assembly that seems to never get their youth companion bill out of EnCon Committee. However, Franceine DelMonte has been the champion of the youth hunting bill initiatives and has made incredible progress in the Assembly. Also, the DEC proposed a package including youth hunting support for lowering the age as well, straight from Commish Grannis (surprised the heck out of me). This endorsement carries some serious weight (obviously) with Speaker Silver, and the effects have been such where the new EnCon Committee Chair in the Assembly, Bob Sweeney, ahas signed onto the Assembly youth bill, assuring this bill WILL reach the floor of the Assembly for a vote. This probably willnot happen until near the end of the current session, but this bill has a very real chance at passage finally. NOw, Spitzer had committed to supporting any youth hunting bill that could hit his desk. Well, that was before number 9, obviously, and we do not know what Paterson will do, but we hope he will sign this like Spitzer committed to do. Let's hope.

Next - Crossbow. Two resolutions passed the Big Game Committee to allow crossbow usage for seniors over 65 and those with disabilities, throughout al current seasons. One of the resolutions did fall, but we motioned that if the resolution was amended to match the senior age of the other (bad one stated 60, one that passed 65, IF BOTH ARE 65, BOTH PASS for our recommendation to support). The DEC also has in their legislative package a crossbow bill to do just this, including the definitions of disabilities. However, again, in order to secure crossbows use, we must first secure legislative action to make crossbows a lawful hunting implement. Without that legsilative action, every other idea concerning crossbows is moot.

Now, back to the resolution at hand. First, one mentioned that MLers are the smallest group. HA! In actuality, the bowhunters are the smallest group. Last year license sales information showed 200,000 archery and combo with archery licenses sold in NYS. Blackpowder licenses and combo licenses including ML topped the 220,000 lisence mark. Bear in mind also, under DECALS we now have the Super Sportsman license which combines big, small game and turkey hunting, fishing, archery and ML. Many archers who also fish are opting for the super sportsman option. Certainly the inclusion of inlines have made ML popularity jump, much like compound bows accomplished for archery back in the 1970s. Harvest figures over the past decade show that MLers are the preferred antlerless managers, but nature of the makeup of the harvests. Archers harvest more bucks, while MLers harvest more flatheads. It makes too much sense to use ML during late September to accomplish the additional antlerless management the DEC needs.

ALso, implementation of this early season DOES NOT REQUOIRE LEGILSATIVE ACTION. This one can be added by the DEC through regulation!! And if we get support now through letters to the DEC starting now, with enough of them, we could potentially see this done this year, although I expect it will be done for the 2009 season, provided we support the plan, which I believe we have more than enough support to get r done.

NOw, let's look at another scenario as well. Many areas of NY have big issues with nuisance deer. One has mentioned his area of CNY. YOu are spot on the money. In Region 9, I'll mention Niagara County, which also has a huge problem that DMP is NOT addressing. In these areas the DEC has more permits than hunters, literally. In Niagara Cuonty, WMU 9A is the ONLY WMU that gives your odds as HIGH for 1st and 2nd permit selecton. In fact, last year (as has been the case the last three) the DEC didn't issue enough permits by the Oct 1 deadline, so they opened up another lottery period and STILL didn't issue enough permits! Certainly in other parts of these Regions DMP is being reduced. But lets's face some realities. Many areas exist where deer are a huge promblem. Crop damage is a very reall issue and with escalating crop prices, any deer related damage done costs ALL of us, not just hunters, a ton of extra cash at the register. Farmers see these animals as robbers of income. The DEC would rather use hunters to control this problem than increasing DDP or DMAP, as some have reported farmers with DDP simply shoot 'em and leave 'em, rather than putting the meat to good use. Farmers don't want to pay the processing fees, which is understandable, and some are unaware of the Venison Donation Coalition and their wor, but hunters are different, and the DEC prefers this route. Besides, we believe this will also sell more licenses, which will pump much needed additional money into the Conservation Fund, which is projected to come in witha $22 MILLION DEFICIT this year! NOT GOOD.

This is a smart move and all will benefit. Not only hunters, but everyone in NYS, the habitat and the herds.

Please keep the Q's coming. This is very positive and support is swelling for this additional opportunity. The best way to alleviate any concerns is through education, and that's what I am here to do, as Region 9 Rep for the NYSCC Big Game Committee.


----------



## doctariAFC

JimPic said:


> Pa. started a ml antlerless season during the archery season a few years ago.Fortunately,we can still bowhunt during that time.The 1st year they had it in place,archers weren't allowed to tag bucks,but they changed that rule for the following year


You are correct. In fact 7 out of 10 of our neighboring states offer an early ML season, and I believe all of them offer this season right in the middle of archery. 

No one wants an early ML in the middle of archery season. Those that know me know that I am one of them who will not tolerate an early ML season in the middle of early archery as well. In fact, I have indeed been one of the most vocal opponents of this in Region 9. The line of sight objection that NYB used most likely came from me during the public hearings on this stuff when first attempts were made back in 2005. Too many hunters in the woods for single projectile firearms with the amount of foliage still on the trees. But in Septmeber, that last week, no one is in the woods, relatively speaking. Safety is thereby covered in this proposal.

And also bear in mind that by placing this season at the end of the license year, hunters who have not used their statewide tags can have another chance to do so, but only for antlerless deer. That's added value without added cost to hunters OR the DEC administration!!!! The limiting factor is those tags. If you filled all your tags before end of extended deer season in December, you will not be able to hunt the September season.


----------



## cityhunter346

Isn't the reason why the DEC has not moved to an Oct.1 bow season is due to concerns about small game hunters? How is having an early muzzleloader season helping small game hunters? Would there be any conflict between the two groups - I don't small game hunt but just curious.


----------



## cynic

cityhunter346 said:


> Isn't the reason why the DEC has not moved to an Oct.1 bow season is due to concerns about small game hunters? How is having an early muzzleloader season helping small game hunters? Would there be any conflict between the two groups - I don't small game hunt but just curious.


How will it hurt either one.. At least they are taking into consideration the archery season...


----------



## doctariAFC

Tax Lawyer said:


> No inlines?
> 
> If so, I predict a very low participation.


No, the In-Line are included in this resolution.

The Big Game committee's recommendation for an amended resolution was to exclude in lines and scopes. Elma Conservation stood their ground on that item. 

The Amended Resolution moves the proposed season from the last week in October to the last week in September, and dispenses the DMP usage - BUT still includes in lines and scope sights.

Erie County Federation ratified the Amended Resolution on 4/24/08 by a vote of 30-3. It is now in the hands of NYSCC, and the Regions are moving to drum up support in each of their respective counties.


----------



## doctariAFC

cityhunter346 said:


> Isn't the reason why the DEC has not moved to an Oct.1 bow season is due to concerns about small game hunters? How is having an early muzzleloader season helping small game hunters? Would there be any conflict between the two groups - I don't small game hunt but just curious.


Yes, that is part of it. Gives the birders a chance for 2 weeks of shooting without worry of bowhunters in treestands. It also is the 2 week buffer for the small gamers who use their dogs afield. Some conflicts happen each year between bowhunters and small gamers working with dogs. Th two weeks of small game only affords the small gamers to work their dogs without upsetting a deer hunter not desiring a dog in their hunting area.

Placing the early ML season from Sept. 24 - Sept 30 alleviates the potential conflict with the bird hunters and other small game hunters, as all (or most anyhow) of these seasons start Oct 1.

The only "conflict" the early ML season shows is the last 7 days of the Squirrel Season, which opens in NYS on Sept. 1.


----------



## doctariAFC

Meleagris1 said:


> So I assume this season would not apply in the bow only areas like Westchester and Albany. Frankly those areas need does killed more than most parts of the state. I would support this new season, but I do think that inlines should be allowed. If its traditional only, then I really can't see the need for sportsman to invest much time and energy promoting something that will end up as little more than a footnote in the season summary. I would rather see the SZ archery season start October 1.
> 
> What NY sportsman really need to do is get the dang youth hunter bills passed. THAT would be something to cheer about.


The archery only areas would probably be unaffected, but I agree those areas need some significant help in managing the antlerless populations.

In lines are included in this proposal. Although the Big Game Committee's recommendation was for flintlock and caplock, iron sights only, the club responsible for the resolution would not omit in lines from their proposal, and rightfully so.

So, as the resolution is written, the season would be Sept 24 - 30, antlerless deer only using either your big game antlered tag or special ml tag, must hold a blackpowder license, no DMPs. Single barrel ML to be used of 44 cal or larger, flintlock, caplock or in-line, iron sights or scopes permitted.


----------



## doctariAFC

xsmasherj said:


> Iam all for it,what needs to be done?As always Doc your finger is on the pulse of New York hunters.Thanks for that


Thanks my friend. Next week, once I am at my other computer, I will post up the information concerning what needs to be done, who needs to be contacted, etc. I am currently crafting a support letter that all can use, if they so desire.

I will do everything I can to make voicing your support on this as simple and convenient as possible.


----------



## bowhuntnsteve

doctariAFC said:


> You are correct. In fact 7 out of 10 of our neighboring states offer an early ML season, and I believe all of them offer this season right in the middle of archery.
> 
> No one wants an early ML in the middle of archery season. Those that know me know that I am one of them who will not tolerate an early ML season in the middle of early archery as well. In fact, I have indeed been one of the most vocal opponents of this in Region 9. The line of sight objection that NYB used most likely came from me during the public hearings on this stuff when first attempts were made back in 2005. Too many hunters in the woods for single projectile firearms with the amount of foliage still on the trees. But in Septmeber, that last week, no one is in the woods, relatively speaking. Safety is thereby covered in this proposal.
> 
> And also bear in mind that by placing this season at the end of the license year, hunters who have not used their statewide tags can have another chance to do so, but only for antlerless deer. That's added value without added cost to hunters OR the DEC administration!!!! The limiting factor is those tags. If you filled all your tags before end of extended deer season in December, you will not be able to hunt the September season.


Having the early ML season here in PA coinciding with archery sucks, I step across the line & hunt NY because I am tired of having guys push thru on me scarring everything in sight & I am forced to wear orange if I stay and hunt. So I stay out of PA from then on out because everything is all goofed up & deer are skiddish for the rest of the year.


----------



## gjs4

First off- you answered those very well doc.

one more

Bowhunters gave i on the saturday opener and now many see this as giving in as well- what is in it for bowhunters? I see bowhunters as givining left and right and getting zip in return.


----------



## SteveB

> I see bowhunters as givining left and right and getting zip in return.


Bowhunters are giving nothing for this proposal to happen. If there was even a hint of harm, there is no way NYB would not have thrown a fit.

I like it - alot. And I fought the early mz as hard as anyone the way it was tried before.

Thanks Doc - looking forward to info on how to help.

Steve


----------



## alwayslookin

*Good Deal*

I think participation will be fairly low in most areas, but the guys who will do the intended job will be out if possible. This is a good plan.

I can bowhunt during Regular season, safely........so I don't really understand the exclusion of bows.....bu tno foul. Fact is, given the choice, very few bowhunters are going to bowhunt, instead will go put a little meat in the freezer with a smokepole. So that could go either way.

I DO think that this should extend to the Archery only zones......they need it the most.......just make sure that they are clear on the fact that these areas are still Bow only.

Overall.....outstanding job.....now , hopefully the beaurocrats won't drop the ball.

Keep us posted. And Thanks.


----------



## gjs4

Is MLT.com down? I cant seem to access the forums? :zip:

I would (again) love to know what the long term goals of the state are and how they set them.


----------



## SteveB

Ttt


----------



## doctariAFC

gjs4 said:


> First off- you answered those very well doc.
> 
> one more
> 
> Bowhunters gave i on the saturday opener and now many see this as giving in as well- what is in it for bowhunters? I see bowhunters as givining left and right and getting zip in return.


Thank you my friend. I am here to give everyone answers to the best of my ability and knowledge, so that we all understand this proposal completely and factually. I think that is the best approach to getting anything accomplished.

I certainly understand the issue you raise concerning the Saturday move on early archery. I also extend this one to opening saturday of regular season. This move really screwed the pooch. One of my wishes (if I could turn back time) is that I wish I was more involved back in 2004 than I was, as I believe I could have blocked this move completely. But I did get the chance during the Big Game Committee meeting to speak to this move with a lot of force, and the DEC admitted they did not look at the economics of hunting when they made this decision. But this is a battle I will be undertaking once I have the updated reports from USF&W. There was no reason to move these seasons, and indeed we did more harm than good. I'll elaborate in another thread on this topic later on. But it is what it is, today, and yes, the archers kinda took one in the tailpipe - first through losing that weekend now taken up by opening of regular season, and now the way the calendar works, the early archery season is roughly 8 days shorter than last year. We could have done the calendar exercise back in 2004/ 2005, but perhaps not enough research was done in this area to mount a successful rebuttal.

I have two key actions that I believe we need to accomplish moving forward (actions not yet on the table, that is). Again, over the coming months, I'll put these two plans forth, and I will back up these plans with facts and reason, for all to debate and chew on.

We have a lot of work to do. But the early ML season is a great beginning. We need to reverse the license sales trends, and, although I am by no means deluding myself to think this move will accomplish a trend revsersal, the additional value for the spend should do much to slow the bleeding. But the next two plans will address the root of the problems and I hope we can get at least one of them done. But this will take some time....


----------



## three under

I am surprized with the support for this proposed new season? What I love about archery season is the part where you get to hunt deer that havent been pressured in 9 months. I know just about everybody in my area owns an in-line muzzleloader and I see the massive deer drives they put on durring the late season that is allready in place. It's hard enough to hunt mature whitetails that arent pressured,if this season takes place I can see the 4 1/2 and older bucks going nocturnel before the bowhunters even take the woods. Most of the hunters that understand sent controll and putting minimum pressure on the bedding areas before the rut will not have last years tags to participate in this left over tag season. It was bad enough when the bowhunters had to give up the best weekend in November but now it's time to leave well enough alone. If NY wants more does killed give out more tags.


----------



## doctariAFC

alwayslookin said:


> I think participation will be fairly low in most areas, but the guys who will do the intended job will be out if possible. This is a good plan.
> 
> I can bowhunt during Regular season, safely........so I don't really understand the exclusion of bows.....bu tno foul. Fact is, given the choice, very few bowhunters are going to bowhunt, instead will go put a little meat in the freezer with a smokepole. So that could go either way.
> 
> *I DO think that this should extend to the Archery only zones......they need it the most.......just make sure that they are clear on the fact that these areas are still Bow only.*
> 
> Overall.....outstanding job.....now , hopefully the beaurocrats won't drop the ball.
> 
> Keep us posted. And Thanks.


You have brought up another great need for deer management in NYS. Yes, the archery only zones need additional help. I do not know whether the ML use will be allowed in these areas, but I kinda doubt it.

Nevertheless, action is in the works to give hunters a better chance at managing these archery only areas with the bow. Allow me to elaborate:

These areas show heavily populated sections, with habitat quadroned and bordered by development. Obvious public safety concerns forced firearms prohibition in these areas, yet recognizing the need to manage the herds, and the costs to accomplish this through tools like bait and shoot make no sense when archers will pay to do the job.

Trouble is, we have a discharge law in NYS that requires hunters to be 500 feet or farther away from a structure (unless you have permission to be closer) before taking a shot. That's nearly 2 football fields! Although archery hunting is permitted in these WMUs, there are a lot of areas you cannot hunt due to the discharge laws, and this condition makes it even more difficult to do the best job we can.

Legislation has been presented to reduce this discharge distance to 250 feet for bows. This has to happen for the archers, and I fully support this legislative change. Archers and other hunters can certainly help by voicing support of this one, too, but, bear in mind this requires legislative action, rather than DEC regulatory change. When the STate Legislature is involved, work becomes that much harder to get accomplished. Nevertheless, we must also support this change, and do so in large numbers.


----------



## doctariAFC

three under said:


> I am surprized with the support for this proposed new season? What I love about archery season is the part where you get to hunt deer that havent been pressured in 9 months. I know just about everybody in my area owns an in-line muzzleloader and I see the massive deer drives they put on durring the late season that is allready in place. It's hard enough to hunt mature whitetails that arent pressured,if this season takes place I can see the 4 1/2 and older bucks going nocturnel before the bowhunters even take the woods. Most of the hunters that understand sent controll and putting minimum pressure on the bedding areas before the rut will not have last years tags to participate in this left over tag season. It was bad enough when the bowhunters had to give up the best weekend in November but now it's time to leave well enough alone. If NY wants more does killed give out more tags.


But when you give out more tags, you kill more button bucks. That's a fact, and it undercuts our future bucks big time. 27% of the antlerless take in NYS is button bucks. The vast majority of this BB harvest happens on DMP.

The answer to reducing this is an early antlerless only season, and using single shot black powder firearms (MLs) is the best way to go.

Also, its a misconception that deer go nocturnal as a result of gunshots/ hunting pressure. They go nocturnal during the rut. The number of does available afford the most dominant animals the luxury of sitting back and letting the does wander to them. Reduce the doe numbers before the rut, and you increase breeding competition. Through this approach, this will be accomplished, but over a longer period of time, thus avoiding the see-saw affects we have endured over the last 20 years.


----------



## three under

doctariAFC said:


> But when you give out more tags, you kill more button bucks. That's a fact, and it undercuts our future bucks big time. 27% of the antlerless take in NYS is button bucks. The vast majority of this BB harvest happens on DMP.
> 
> The answer to reducing this is an early antlerless only season, and using single shot black powder firearms (MLs) is the best way to go.
> 
> Also, its a misconception that deer go nocturnal as a result of gunshots/ hunting pressure. They go nocturnal during the rut. The number of does available afford the most dominant animals the luxury of sitting back and letting the does wander to them. Reduce the doe numbers before the rut, and you increase breeding competition. Through this approach, this will be accomplished, but over a longer period of time, thus avoiding the see-saw affects we have endured over the last 20 years.


Why wouldn't 27% of an antlerless only season kills be button bucks? We are still dealing with the same hunters,they are not any more educated in Sept. than they are in Nov. 
My trail cams. tell me when the mature bucks in my area go nocturnel and it allways takes place the same time human traffic in the woods picks up.


----------



## Meleagris1

doctariAFC said:


> But when you give out more tags, you kill more button bucks. That's a fact, and it undercuts our future bucks big time. 27% of the antlerless take in NYS is button bucks. The vast majority of this BB harvest happens on DMP.
> 
> The answer to reducing this is an early antlerless only season, and using single shot black powder firearms (MLs) is the best way to go.



Doc, I'm glad to see that they are considering the 500' - 250' change, that is important big time if archers are to ever keep things in check in urban areas.

How is an early SZ ML doe season going to reduce the number of BB's taken on antlerless tags?


----------



## doctariAFC

Meleagris1 said:


> Doc, I'm glad to see that they are considering the 500' - 250' change, that is important big time if archers are to ever keep things in check in urban areas.
> 
> How is an early SZ ML doe season going to reduce the number of BB's taken on antlerless tags?


Yes, I agree the discharge law change would be HUGE for archers. May actually help the archers better manage the antlerless deer (and all deer for that matter) in the archery only zones. Let's make sure we voice our overwhelming support for this move!

The next Q... If we can get enough participation during the early ML season, and take down does during this period, over time (and I stress over time, because this isn't something that we can expect to have impacts in one or two seasons) we should be able to get the DMP program reduced to a more reasonable program. Right now, the DEC gives these tags away like candy in many areas, and although regular season does accomplish population reduction in big numbers, game identification is difficult. However, during early Sept, fawns are still running with the does. Education is certainly key, but if a hunters sees three deer, one big and two small, the target is mama. This will not affect the fawns and their survival. They're already browsing (have been for at least a month) and are more than ready to be on their own. But this period is before mama gives her brood the boot so she can mate, and I am hopeful that this condition, coupled with the more avid nature a special hunting license holder exhibits, will result in larger numbers of female deer being harvested. 

Over time, if we see success, we could see DMP reduced, which is my goal with this season. But it will take some time to accomplish this.

Of course, harvest reporting is also critical and I would hope that we all report our harvest. Reporting rates are in the toilet, pegged at 45% compliance vs 95% compliance pre DECALS. Although the DEC states their numbers are accurate at statewide and regional level, and will remain accurate even if reporting rates drop to as low as 25%, what is happening is a complete lack of reliability of the numbers at a detail level. Kinda like an aerial photo. Yes, you captured everything accurately in the picture, but when we enlarge one corner of the picture to see the detail, the resulting picture is blurry and unrecognizable. This one is on us! We need to improve our reporting complaince so we can get a more accurate picture at the WMU, County and even township level for better management plans. This has a larger effect on DMP, and could be the cause of perhaps issuing too many or too few permits for any given WMU. 

BOwhunters and black powder guys and gals seem to do a better job at reporting compliance than regular season hunters.

Also, two areas that the DEC is really weak on estimating are deer-car collisions and poaching. DEC used to incorporate deer-car collision data into their population estimates, but have found this too costly and very ineffective due to differences in data from area to area (how its collected, methodologies of the report and age of information when released). They've never had a good handle on poaching's affect on the herds.

But it is known that areas of S. Zone habe serious nuisance deer issues and crop damage. And oftentimes these areas do not have enough hunters to take the permits issued. Other areas are in "growth mode". 

But we are definitely poking our own eyes out through not reporting. Better reporting compliance equates to better insight at the detail level, at least according to the DEC.


----------



## Magellon

From a PA guy...IMO if NY is going to implement an early season ML season then have it in Sept. PA has their's in mid October right when things are getting interesting.

I know bowhunters like September b/c bucks can be patterned. But given the choice I would rather have them get it over with so I can concentrate on my bowhunting.

Hope this wasn't a hijack....just wanted to throw that in the mix.


----------



## doctariAFC

three under said:


> Why wouldn't 27% of an antlerless only season kills be button bucks? We are still dealing with the same hunters,they are not any more educated in Sept. than they are in Nov.
> My trail cams. tell me when the mature bucks in my area go nocturnel and it allways takes place the same time human traffic in the woods picks up.


Good Q's. The answer of why wouldn't 27% of the antlerless only season be BBs is found in makeup of current ML harvest. Of course this fluctuates from area to area, but on the whole the BB harvest from ML is under 15%. Its even lower than archery!!

Also, with fawns still tagging along with mama during Sept. I would hope the hunter would opt for the biggest deer in the bunch, which I believe most would do. There is definitely an educational component involved, but we are up for this task, I do believe. 

Yes, bucks and does go nocturnal in the fall. This will happen independent of us - its the nature of the rut. Certainly larger numbers of hunters stinking up the woods will result in higher alert for the deer, but this early season ML will not bring every hunter out of their homes into the woods. As it stands today, 220,000 hunters hold a ML license. Of these, many have filled their tags. If you filled your big game antlered tag or your special ML tag, you are not hunting in Sept, as you have no tags. No DMPs will be used, as using these leftover tags would indeed screw up the DMP plans and goals and objectives. DMPs are also transferrable, whereas the other tags are not, so we limit the number of hunters through rule and by law out of the gate.

Those who fill their tags must wait for the new license year. Those that have not are able to capitalize on the additional end of license year opportunity for antlerless only animals. Enforcement is simplified in that a hard stop on those tags exists, with a two week no deer hunting prohibition immediately following the close of the special season. 

Remember, the goal of current deer management is to satbilize the herd numbers, avoiding the see-saw effect in the process. This early season can certainly contribute to achieving this goal.


----------



## doctariAFC

Magellon said:


> From a PA guy...IMO if NY is going to implement an early season ML season then have it in Sept. PA has their's in mid October right when things are getting interesting.
> 
> I know bowhunters like September b/c bucks can be patterned. But given the choice I would rather have them get it over with so I can concentrate on my bowhunting.
> 
> Hope this wasn't a hijack....just wanted to throw that in the mix.


Good points, and is one of the many reasons why Sept. for an early antlerless only ML season makes sense!!!! We understand the conflicts being caused in PA, and we want none of that. 

Makes too much sense with a 7-day end of Sept. season for everyone.


----------



## VA2

Great......... just what NY Needed a longer season!!!!!


----------



## Boone

Nope don't like the idea of MZ before archery even if it is for left over tags. As someone stated our season is plenty long enough now. Shorten the shotgun season and put in a week before that starts !!


----------



## doctariAFC

Boone said:


> Nope don't like the idea of MZ before archery even if it is for left over tags. As someone stated our season is plenty long enough now. Shorten the shotgun season and put in a week before that starts !!


Just out of curiosity..... Do you know how many hunters are in NYS today, vs in 2001? 1996???

Deer herds are growing and deer managers are shrinking.

The DEC needs the added help in managing antlerless deer. That is direct from the DEC. This early season at end of Sept. for antlerless only deer will offer that help to the DEC, and the ability to use tags at the end of the license year adds VALUE to the hunter (consumers like added values, when getting added value, they tend to spend more) WITHOUT adding cost to the hunter OR the DEC to administer the new season.

Oh, BTW

1996 - NYS Big Game Hunters totaled near 650,000 (all big game hunters, including reg, archery and blackpowder, res and non-res)

2001 - NYS Big Game Hunters totaled 654,000 (all big game hunters, inclduing reg season, archery and blackpowder, res and non-res)

2006 - NYS Big Game Hunters total 520,000 (all big game hunters, including reg season, archery and blackpowder, res and non-res)

2007 - NYS Big Game Hunters total 490,000 (all big game hunters, including reg season, archery and blackpowder, res and non-res)

Conservation Fund projected to have a $22 NILLION deficit this year.

These are the facts. We are addressing the challenges based on the facts and on science. Its win-win-win....


----------



## DeadNutsAA

I think this early season is a good idea, and is definitely a step in the right direction!


----------



## three under

If NY is over run with does than there shouldn't be any left over tags.


----------



## doctariAFC

three under said:


> If NY is over run with does than there shouldn't be any left over tags.


Again, out of curiosity, do you know how these DMPs are issued and how many are issued?

Methinks you should re-read this from the beginning. Nowhere does it say "NYS is over run with does". It clearly states PARTS of the NY Southern Zone is over run with does....

Please, let's stick with the facts and try to refrain from injecting erroneous nonsense that isn't stated.

Ask questions, I'll give you answers. But, please, do not make up the answers that I give. It serves no one.

Thank you....


----------



## willie

We've (Indiana) have had muzzleloader hunters and bowhunters sharing our deer woods during two weeks in December for a long, long time. No one has been shot yet....

I don't see any problems sharing the deer woods with other types of hunting tools... even crossbows . :wink:


----------



## NY911

three under said:


> If NY is over run with does than there shouldn't be any left over tags.


You have to remember - NY still has a lot of "old school" hunters that think taking does in taboo........Numbers are decieving....


----------



## NY911

three under said:


> If NY is over run with does than there shouldn't be any left over tags.


You have to remember - NY still has a lot of "old school" hunters that think taking does is taboo........Numbers are decieving....


----------



## doctariAFC

NYBowhunter911 said:


> You have to remember - NY still has a lot of "old school" hunters that think taking does in taboo........Numbers are decieving....


oh yeah.... And not even that old of school, either. Seems like one thing we NY hunters effectively pass on to the next generation is the "evils of shooting a doe!"

It is definitely a challenge overcoming this entrenched mindset. We have made progress. But we ain't done with the work yet.


----------



## three under

doctariAFC said:


> Again, out of curiosity, do you know how these DMPs are issued and how many are issued?
> 
> Methinks you should re-read this from the beginning. Nowhere does it say "NYS is over run with does". It clearly states PARTS of the NY Southern Zone is over run with does....
> 
> Please, let's stick with the facts and try to refrain from injecting erroneous nonsense that isn't stated.
> 
> Ask questions, I'll give you answers. But, please, do not make up the answers that I give. It serves no one.
> 
> Thank you....


You were spot on by emphasizing the word PARTS by putting it in all caps. That is why I dont see why you would want a antlerless only season for the hole southern zone when only PART of it has a doe problem? And we have allready established that the PARTS that need it the most are archery only and will not be helped by this season.

My understanding is that the issueing of DMPS are based on estimated deer populations vs dmp's filled the prior season. I'm sure it's more complex than this but I would like to believe DEC issues more tags where they would like to kill more does and less where they would like less killed. If this is not the case it should be. Why would we open up on does in Albany just because Buffalo has a problem?


----------



## NY911

I personally - LOVE to shoot them does!!!!!


----------



## doctariAFC

three under said:


> You were spot on by emphasizing the word PARTS by putting it in all caps. That is why I dont see why you would want a antlerless only season for the hole southern zone when only PART of it has a doe problem? And we have allready established that the PARTS that need it the most are archery only and will not be helped by this season.
> 
> My understanding is that the issueing of DMPS are based on estimated deer populations vs dmp's filled the prior season. I'm sure it's more complex than this but I would like to believe DEC issues more tags where they would like to kill more does killed and less where they would like less killed. If this is not the case it should be. Why would we open up on does in Albany just because Buffalo has a problem?


Actually, the larger problems exist in CNY and parts of northern WNY. 

Also, the DMPs are issued with a harvest goal in mind, coupled with success rate information to try to get to the right number, but in order to get the right number, we, as hunters, need to report our harvests at a higher rate than 45%. That one is on us.

And, to be honest, the Farmers right now carry Maxwell's Silver Hammer in the form of Cornell Cooperative Extension and studies this University has conducted concerning wildlife and deer related crop damage. The DEC issued over 511,000 DMPs last year, up from 365,000 in 2006, and although harvest numbers went up for antlerless, we are witnessing parts of the state that are simply getting crushed, and this is resulting in higher prices for produce across the board, and lower yields for farmers across the board. They swing the hammer, and the last time they swung the hammer withauthority was 2002 and 2003. DO we want to see this hammer come down on us again?

I for one do not.

Now, let's get some reality with some real numbers (rather than %).

LY we harvested 115,000 Antlerless animals (of which 76,000 were considered adult doe). 83,000 of these were tagged on DMP. Another 10,000 on DMAP. The remaining 22,000 animals were harvested during early archery and late ML.

MLers harvested a total of 17,000 animals, 6500 antlered and 10,500 antlerless (approx)

So we really are looking at harvesting @ 10,000 flatheads ACROSS THE SOUTHERN ZONE. Dude, that's less than 10% of the current antlerless take as it stands today. Its nothing in the face of an 800,000 animal strong herd.

HOWEVER.... That 10,000 animals could hit 20,000, and at that point it would work to decrease DMP and DMAP. Further, through reduction of the does in Sept, we are lowering that buck doe ratio, which should accomplish a couple things

1 - Get the bucks moving a bit more to find mates once the rut arrives

2 - and most importantly, reduce the number of does needing to be "serviced", potentially reducing the secondary rut and lowering the rate of late pregnancies and late births of fawns, which should help improve fawn survival rates.


----------



## doctariAFC

NYBowhunter911 said:


> I personally - LOVE to shoot them does!!!!!


ditto.....


----------



## VA2

I am not supporting this. I think that it is crap. Charlie ALshiemer
is also starting to change his tune on taking does. Taking that many
does will certainly effect the fawns come winter. It will also make the
deer go nocturnal with that much penetration into the woods prior to
archery season. You can count on a horrible season with a lot of
wondering fawns around the woods. Fawns need all the time they can get with their mothers in order to survive in the Northeast and not to mention the amount of button bucks that will be shot……………
PS
I have no deer in my area now we don't need this..............
Don't go by numbers the DEC puts out.................


----------



## lastbreath

doctariAFC said:


> Yes, and surprising. Region 8 is all over it!
> 
> We will need to support this one, vocally. I think its high time hunters of Southern Zone NYS actually receive a freaking value for that hunting license spend. More tags are not a value if you have no time to fill 'em!
> 
> And plucking some skinheads in advance of the rut would actually reduce the buck to doe ratios before the rut! That'll get them bucks moving anfd battling a bit more, at least I believe so. Mark Kandel, our Region 9 Wildlife Manager, when I mentioned this potential to him, he said, "Rich, you are onto something!"
> 
> My hope, too, is through using the early season as an antlerless management tool, we could, over time see a reduction in the DMP program. We give away way too many DMPs, and the incidental BB harvest is contributing to our lackabucksicus woes. Over time, I am hopeful we can reduce the DMP issuances, and through attrition reduce the BB take. After all, I believe a single shot ML hunter will be a bit more selective on the shot and be better skilled at adult deer identification than the one-day warrior with one in the pipe and 5 in the tube.


I like it doc..........I wish michigan would choose this effort to increase the antlerless harvest ( in DMP areas only of course)........ Late season antlerless hunting is a dissmal failure at best here....


----------



## archery_hunter

alwayslookin said:


> I think participation will be fairly low in most areas, but the guys who will do the intended job will be out if possible. This is a good plan.
> 
> I can bowhunt during Regular season, safely........so I don't really understand the exclusion of bows.....bu tno foul. Fact is, given the choice, very few bowhunters are going to bowhunt, instead will go put a little meat in the freezer with a smokepole. So that could go either way.
> 
> I DO think that this should extend to the Archery only zones......they need it the most.......just make sure that they are clear on the fact that these areas are still Bow only.
> 
> Overall.....outstanding job.....now , hopefully the beaurocrats won't drop the ball.
> 
> Keep us posted. And Thanks.



I am for it. However, the only place I hunt in NY is in Westchester County, all bow all the time. Here is where the Oct 1st bow opener change would assist in knocking down some does. 
But it would also be nice to use a previous season left over tag(s) in Westchester pre Oct to put some early meat in the freezer.


----------



## skully

*What The Fu--*

What is wrong with you people pulling for an early muzzleloader season. Any bowhunter in there right mind would not want any muzzleloader season. Do you know what this will do to the deer for archery season.


----------



## three under

VA2 said:


> I am not supporting this. I think that it is crap. Charlie ALshiemer
> is also starting to change his tune on taking does. Taking that many
> does will certainly effect the fawns come winter. It will also make the
> deer go nocturnal with that much penetration into the woods prior to
> archery season. You can count on a horrible season with a lot of
> wondering fawns around the woods. Fawns need all the time they can get with their mothers in order to survive in the Northeast and not to mention the amount of button bucks that will be shot……………
> PS
> I have no deer in my area now we don't need this..............
> Don't go by numbers the DEC puts out.................





skully said:


> What is wrong with you people pulling for an early muzzleloader season. Any bowhunter in there right mind would not want any muzzleloader season. Do you know what this will do to the deer for archery season.


Hush you 2this is no place for common sence.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> What is wrong with you people pulling for an early muzzleloader season. Any bowhunter in there right mind would not want any muzzleloader season. Do you know what this will do to the deer for archery season.


NYB supports this proposal.

It won't do a thing to bowhunting or the bowhunting experience.

Many misconceptions that continue to perpetuate themselves. Deer do not go nocturnal on account of gunshots, nor do they go nocturnal because of high human scent in the woods.

If this was the case, the deer would be nocturnal by mid-September due to squirrel hunters. Heck, the deer would be completely nocturnal year-round with the campers, trail riders and hikers in the woods spring summer and early fall.

When one thinks about the statements being made, and apply some common sense, one finds the misconceptions readily.

Also, harvesting does is not bad. In fact, its very good as this is the way we stabilize the growth of the herds. Troubles arise when we get on the see-saw effect, where the herd grows and grows, then we take out tons of animals and then the cycle starts again. This isn't good for the herds, but its even worse for habitat and is a negative for biodiversity of any given ecosystem.

What do we in NYS do now? With the most recent Cornel U study on deer caused crop damage estimated across NYS to cost farmers nearly $100 MIL annually (I believe that is the latest figure) pressure on sportsmen and specifically the DEC is immense.
We currently are trying to achieve a stable deer herd, which is characterized by no or slow growth of overall numbers. Are we there?

This is the flaw in DMP. We work to reduce the numbers during active breeding. Sure, we cull out 86,000 antlerless deer on DMP last year, 114,000 total between DMP, early archery and extended seasons, but this effort is being done during mating, rather than atempting to reduce the breeding numbers of does BEFORE the rut happens, which will result in healthier breeding patterns, reduced secondary rut, lower late birth rates and thereby higher fawn survivability.

Again, looking at the harvest numbers for ML, in a 9-day season we harvest statewide 10,500 antlerless animals. In other words 1167 animals per day (antlerless). Let's roughly project the impact of this season. If we assume (big assumption as these animals are easier to see when the leaves are off the trees and snow is on the ground) that we will harvest antlerless deer at the same rate of 1167 per day, across the state, then the 7-day early season will account for @ 8,169 antlerless deer taken down across the state. 

The number will actually be LOWER than that, as the numbers statewide also account for Northern Zone Harvest. I can certainly work up what the Southern Zone harvest would be, as I have the harvest figures by WMU, and can remove regions 5 and 6 quite readily from the figures.


This new season allows for added value to Southern Zone Hunter, something which we do not have today.
This new season will deliver much needed helpo to the DEC to enhance antlerless deer management, using the right segment of hunters who have demonstrated over MANY years that they have no issues harvesting a flathead.
This new season, over time, will slowly reduce buck to doe ratios to allow for more competitive breeding patterns
This new season, over time, if we get enough participation, could allow us to dramatically reduce DMAP and DDP
This new season, over time, if we get participation, could allow the DEC to reduce DMP, thus adding more fawn protection during regular season (which should help improve recuritment through lowering button buck mortality)
This new season will NOT add additional cost to the DEC or to the sportsmen
This new season is easily enforceable, as a hard stop on the tags exist (9/30) and a 2-week hiatus between end of Sept and beginning of Southern Zone Archery makes the enforcement tasks very easy.
This new season allows older hunters a chance to hunt in "good weather".
This new season allows working sportsmen a chance at afternoon hunting during extended daylight afternoon hours
This new season allows one full weekend for hunters to participate
This new season is self-limiting, in that only leftover big game antlered or special ML tag can be used for antlerless only deer. Those that filled their tags during the Oct-Dec seasons would not be eligible to hunt in September.
This new season delivers a similar value as Northern Zone's early archery delivers to ADK region hunters, with the SAME conditions (filled your tags, you wait until new license year).
This new season capitalizes opn the fastest growing subsegment of big game hunters in NYS, showing skyrocketing trends of ML license sales, now pegged at 232,000 (2007 license sales figures), with enhanced opportunity in place to generate more sales of licenses, adding much needed revenue to the Conservation Fund
This new season will add additional economic impact to the NYS Hunting Industry, with benefits being reaped by small business across the Southern Zone, like Bed & Breakfasts, small diner and bar & grills, supermarkets, gas stations, sporting goods stores, etc.

Please explain in a similar fashion, strictly bullet point on facts, what the down sides are?

I think we'll find the down sides are very few, with the benefits to the deer, habitat and hunters alike outweighing the fears of something new.


----------



## doctariAFC

VA2 said:


> I am not supporting this. I think that it is crap. Charlie ALshiemer
> is also starting to change his tune on taking does. Taking that many
> does will certainly effect the fawns come winter. It will also make the
> deer go nocturnal with that much penetration into the woods prior to
> archery season. You can count on a horrible season with a lot of
> wondering fawns around the woods. Fawns need all the time they can get with their mothers in order to survive in the Northeast and not to mention the amount of button bucks that will be shot……………
> PS
> I have no deer in my area now we don't need this..............
> Don't go by numbers the DEC puts out.................


What?????

Fawns get the boot by mama when the rut sets in. The fawns are fully capable of survival on their own by the end of August.

Or, are you suggesting that we are "ruining a deer's family?" :doh:

Heavy on emotion, light on facts.


----------



## skully

*Your kidding me right*

doctariAFC's Avatar 
doctariAFC doctariAFC is online now
Arch Conservative


If you don't think early muzzleloader is going to change deer activity or make some mature bucks daytime movement completely non exsistent than you must not spend much time in the woods. I do not know were your from but there are not to many squirrel hunters around here.

If you are leaving human scent in the woods on a consistent basis, it will change deer activity.

I am all for getting rid of some does, there are to many anyways. But how about controlling it other ways.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> doctariAFC's Avatar
> doctariAFC doctariAFC is online now
> Arch Conservative
> 
> 
> If you don't think early muzzleloader is going to change deer activity or make some mature bucks daytime movement completely non exsistent than you must not spend much time in the woods. I do not know were your from but there are not to many squirrel hunters around here.
> 
> If you are leaving human scent in the woods on a consistent basis, it will change deer activity.
> 
> I am all for getting rid of some does, there are to many anyways. But how about controlling it other ways.


I have been deer hunting for 20+ years. And I have hunted all over WNY and CNY.

Here's a Q for you...... Why is it that each year the extended season harvest climbs? Success rates grow?

This, despite being immediately following regular season, where the Lion's share of nearly half a million hunters are stomping around the woods?

Dude, you're making no sense.


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> I have been deer hunting for 20+ years. And I have hunted all over WNY and CNY.
> 
> Here's a Q for you...... Why is it that each year the extended season harvest climbs? Success rates grow?
> 
> This, despite being immediately following regular season, where the Lion's share of nearly half a million hunters are stomping around the woods?
> 
> Dude, you're making no sense.


The question has a simple answer, the TC Encore.


----------



## three under

doctariAFC said:


> Please explain in a similar fashion, strictly bullet point on facts, what the down sides are?
> 
> I think we'll find the down sides are very few, with the benefits to the deer, habitat and hunters alike outweighing the fears of something new.


>This season does look at the southern zone as a whole instead of targeting specific DMU's.
>This season does reduce future DMP's which will reduce future liscense sales lowering the all ready dwindleing number of hunters in NYS.
>This season does have a high risk of button buck mortality due to limited visibility with the leaves still on the trees(Every year fawns wonder under my stands 30 or so minutes before momma even pops into view).
>This season does put deer hunters at risk due to the limited visibility discussed earlier(Gun hunters are gun hunters and they will be putting on deer drives).
>This season will take place months after DEC has allready determined DMP's.
>This season will put bowhunters tree stands at risk of disapearing while gun hunters are wondering around our spots laying down human scent and changeing deer patterns before archery season even starts.
>This season will put deer on acorns at night and keep them there before archery season begins.
>This season will change our archery season for the worst(You know the season we have been enjoying for years due to the fact the deer have not been hunted for 9 months,and some of us actually enjoy watching momma and fawns interact in the woods before hunting pressure puts them on high alert and has them looking over their shoulder every second and jumping in the air everytime a squirell snaps a twig.
I have about 100 more but right now I have some actuall work to do.


----------



## doctariAFC

archery_hunter said:


> I am for it. However, the only place I hunt in NY is in Westchester County, all bow all the time. Here is where the Oct 1st bow opener change would assist in knocking down some does.
> But it would also be nice to use a previous season left over tag(s) in Westchester pre Oct to put some early meat in the freezer.


Great point! Although I do not wish to muddy the waters on the current proposal, I, too, agree that opening the archery only areas for archers during the same week as the proposed early ML would make a ton of sense.

I'm kind of surprised NYB didn't bring this one up during the Big Game Committee Meeting during discussions on the early ML season in Sept.

This will go on my HOT LIST for the next session, as it makes a ton of sense, and delivers the added value to the archery only areas of the Southern Zone.


----------



## skully

*Get real*

Because of deer drives and it is the end of the year and all the woodchucks are filling there freezers, there fore they are shooting anything. That is what makes the success rates grow.

If you do not think deer are skittish at this time of the year because of all the activity in the woods you should get a life time ban from hunting.


----------



## three under

tackscall said:


> The question has a simple answer, the TC Encore.


:thumbs_up


----------



## tackscall

three under said:


> :thumbs_up



It was only 5-7 years ago when muzzleloading was a crap shoot with the sidelock, in the unlikely event that you actually saw a deer in the late season would the gun even fire? You had your powder and maxi-balls in a little pouch, your hands were freezing trying to get a cap on. If you were really sophisticated you at least had some speed loaders ready to go. Only the die-hards were out there. I was, never got a shot with the Hawken though. Now a LOT of guys I know hunt the whole gun season including the late season with the Encore or a similar new inline because they are more effective the their slug guns.


----------



## doctariAFC

three under said:


> >This season does look at the southern zone as a whole instead of targeting specific DMU's.
> >This season does reduce future DMP's which will reduce future liscense sales lowering the all ready dwindleing number of hunters in NYS.
> >This season does have a high risk of button buck mortality due to limited visibility with the leaves still on the trees(Every year fawns wonder under my stands 30 or so minutes before momma even pops into view).
> >This season does put deer hunters at risk due to the limited visibility discussed earlier(Gun hunters are gun hunters and they will be putting on deer drives).
> >This season will take place months after DEC has allready determined DMP's.
> >This season will put bowhunters tree stands at risk of disapearing while gun hunters are wondering around our spots laying down human scent and changeing deer patterns before archery season even starts.
> >This season will put deer on acorns at night and keep them there before archery season begins.
> >This season will change our archery season for the worst(You know the season we have been enjoying for years due to the fact the deer have not been hunted for 9 months,and some of us actually enjoy watching momma and fawns interact in the woods before hunting pressure puts them on high alert and has them looking over their shoulder every second and jumping in the air everytime a squirell snaps a twig.
> I have about 100 more but right now I have some actuall work to do.


Thank you. Now I'll respond.

Point # 1 - DMP reduction and license sales reduction. FOLLY and HOGWASH. Case in point... DMP issuances jumped from 365,000 in 2006 to 511,000 in 2007. End result? We LOST 9% of hunters, accounting for a 16% drop in license/ stamp sales.

Point # 2 - Current harvest trends from the DEC indicate ML hunters harvest a very low number of BBs as a % of antlerless harvest, running @ 15% vs 27% statewide average. Indeed, archers take more BBs during early archery than MLers do. I have a 30 year harvest history to prove it.

Point # 3 - Risk to hunters is lower than current risk to hunters in regular season. Bear in mind we are using SINGLE SHOT ML rifles, not repeaters or firearms with magazines. The Lion's share of accidents happen during regular season. In fact, according to the safety reports I have from the DEC over the past decade, not a single incident of any black powder hunting accidents.

Point # 4 - This season does NOT use DMP. Nor does early archery season tags. State already issues tags which are valid statewide, do they not? These are independent of DMP, and during early archery and extended season, these tags (Big Game Antlered, ML/ Bow antlerless only, ML/Bow deer of either sex) are managed far differently than DMP, and indeed do not hurt or alter too much the overall deer management plan. I can refer you to DEC Biologist Jeremy Hurst, Big Game Biologist for NYS, for better insight.

Point # 5 - Hogwash with the treestands. Besides, if you're placing treestands (portables) at end of September, you're begging for a problem to begin with. ML hunters in the woods during Sept will not increase potential theft. Do you have any numbers to back this up, or is this just a wild claim?

Point # 6 - Deer will feed when deer will feed. Nocturnal behavior begins in earnest due to photoperiod and the rut, not people in the woods. Again, if this were true, I'm surprised you aren't clamouring for elimination of the Squirrel season AND small game opener on Oct 1. :doh:

Point # 7 - Again, if high alert is the problem, why aren't you pushing for end of Squirrel hunting in Sept. and end of Oct 1 small game/ bird hunting? 

You probably do have 100 more, but it certainly appears light on facts, heavy on emotion. 

A question for you.... Which Federated Club do you belong to? Are you a member of that club's respective Big Game Committee? Are you a regular attendee of any County Federation Meetings? Are you active in County level Big Game Committee Meetings? Do you ever attend the NYSCC Meetings?

Realize that I am part of this process, and have been for quite some time. Did you notice in my signature line what I am involved with? You spent a little time looking at my avatar and little quote, but did you notice the signature?

What information would you like to get better educated on the sport of hunting in NYS, all facets? I can even provide you with more data than you can handle regarding the fishing industry in NYS..... What would you like to see?


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> It was only 5-7 years ago when muzzleloading was a crap shoot with the sidelock, in the unlikely event that you actually saw a deer in the late season would the gun even fire? You had your powder and maxi-balls in a little pouch, your hands were freezing trying to get a cap on. If you were really sophisticated you at least had some speed loaders ready to go. Only the die-hards were out there. I was, never got a shot with the Hawken though. Now a LOT of guys I know hunt the whole gun season including the late season with the Encore or a similar new inline because they are more effective the their slug guns.


Yes, you are correct, to a degree.

However, I wonder if anyone has ever thought about archery in the same vein?

The in-line ML is doing the EXACT SAME THING the COMPOUND BOW did for archery hunting in the 1970s. 100% same thing..... Increased harvest rates, tripling of license sales, more participation and a quadrupling of archery harvest (which was 31,060 in 2007, BTW, majority antlered)....

Oh yeah, and you had the same arguments against compound bows as we are seeing today. Too many people in the woods, going to spook the deer, deer will go n octurnal, we'll decimate the herds, you pick it.

Did any of this happen? NOPE....

Will these same arguments meet the same fate as they did during the compound bow debate? Yep.....


----------



## skully

*doctariAFC's Avatar*

Your clueless.

Photoperiod has alot to to with it. But if you don't think people in the woods is the icing on the cake.


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Yes, you are correct, to a degree.
> 
> However, I wonder if anyone has ever thought about archery in the same vein?
> 
> The in-line ML is doing the EXACT SAME THING the COMPOUND BOW did for archery hunting in the 1970s. 100% same thing..... Increased harvest rates, tripling of license sales, more participation and a quadrupling of archery harvest (which was 31,060 in 2007, BTW, majority antlered)....
> 
> Oh yeah, and you had the same arguments against compound bows as we are seeing today. Too many people in the woods, going to spook the deer, deer will go n octurnal, we'll decimate the herds, you pick it.
> 
> Did any of this happen? NOPE....
> 
> Will these same arguments meet the same fate as they did during the compound bow debate? Yep.....


You asked why harvest rates were up during the late season, I think it's the advent of the in-line boosting participation. I didn't make any argument against them, I have one.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> Your clueless.
> 
> Photoperiod has alot to to with it. But if you don't think people in the woods is the icing on the cake.


I see you didn't answer any of my questions......

You're guessing without any facts....

You're completely discounting the number of people in the woods enjoying trail riding, hiking, camping, etc throughout spring and summer. 

But I digress.... What organizations are you involved with and active in? How much information do you receive from NYSDEC, NYSCC, CANY, Federations and local clubs??

Judging from your dodging of the Q's its a BIG FAT ZERO!

But you have your right to your opinion. I sure wish you had facts to back up your claims. But you don't and your arguments are very weak on account of it.


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> You asked why harvest rates were up during the late season, I think it's the advent of the in-line boosting participation. I didn't make any argument against them, I have one.


No you're right, as it has boosted participation. Believe it or not, success rates as a % haven't changed a whole lot, but through numbers afield, through attrition, harvests have increased.

This is the same with archery. Up until 1973 the only archery gear you could use in NYS were long bows and recurves. License sales were low, and harvest was also low. % of deer recovered after being hit was lesser and impacts on management were ineffective. Then the compound bow was allowed (after much debate). The result was a tripling of license sales and a quadrupling of harvest rates (some of which was a numbers game, other component was increased game recovery)

Same things..... Right?


----------



## doctariAFC

Success rate with blackpowder, based on current number of licensed ML hunters and 2007 harvest figures is (9 days of hunting)

7.3%

Archery success rates based on current license sales and 2007 harvest figures is (@ 50 days of hunting)

15.5%

Biological impacts are going to be nil at the start. Through participation increases (hoped) this will grow and become meaningful tool for antlerless management, which I believe it can, but it will happen slowly rather than overnight, which is just what nature likes anyhow.


----------



## skully

*unbelievable*

So your saying that because I do not belong to any organizations I have no idea
what I am saying. How about that I spend 4 months in the woods every day watching and observing for the last 25 yrs.

Once again you made another idiotic comment. Hikers campers trail riders are much more easily for deer to adapt to. They know these areas because of the activity all year long. These people They are not in full camo hiding in trees waiting to kill them. For the most part the deer will stay will stay away from these areas anyway during peak hrs.

Thanks for all comedy though. There is a bunch of us at work laughing our a---- 
off everytime we read one of your statements. You keep reminding me of why I am not in any organizations, but then again I am sure they get a chuckle out of you to.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> So your saying that because I do not belong to any organizations I have no idea
> what I am saying. How about that I spend 4 months in the woods every day watching and observing for the last 25 yrs.
> 
> Once again you made another idiotic comment. Hikers campers trail riders are much more easily for deer to adapt to. They know these areas because of the activity all year long. These people They are not in full camo hiding in trees waiting to kill them. For the most part the deer will stay will stay away from these areas anyway during peak hrs.
> 
> Thanks for all comedy though. There is a bunch of us at work laughing our a----
> off everytime we read one of your statements. You keep reminding me of why I am not in any organizations, but then again I am sure they get a chuckle out of you to.


That's what I thought. Another "blissful" NYS Hunter.....

Your points carry as much water as a bucket with a hole in the bottom of it. You have no facts, no science, no nothing.

Thanks.....

Now, back to the factual debate.....


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> No you're right, as it has boosted participation. Believe it or not, success rates as a % haven't changed a whole lot, but through numbers afield, through attrition, harvests have increased.
> 
> This is the same with archery. Up until 1973 the only archery gear you could use in NYS were long bows and recurves. License sales were low, and harvest was also low. % of deer recovered after being hit was lesser and impacts on management were ineffective. Then the compound bow was allowed (after much debate). The result was a tripling of license sales and a quadrupling of harvest rates (some of which was a numbers game, other component was increased game recovery)
> 
> Same things..... Right?


Same things as what, we're talking about an entirely new season here. This is a tough sell for bowhunters on a bowhunting website, myself included. The increased pressure will effect deer movement, you will not convince me otherwise. The allure of the archery season is the largely undisturbed deer and I'm not sure what an early firearms season will do to that. Squirrel and bird hunting is pretty minimal around here before deer season. PA guys chime in here, how does your ML season in the middle of archery change your deer movement?


----------



## doctariAFC

Potentials for management effectiveness of ML hunters as deer managers is found in the rate per daily harvest.

ML
1889 animals harvested on average per day, 1167 of which are antlerless

Archery
620 animals harvested on average per day, 280 of which are antlerless.


Of course, this also includes Northern Zone figures, too.


----------



## VA2

NY Hunters do what i will be doing for now on. Take your money and hunt out of state! 

The main reason for this proposal is to try to increase license sales and make more money! Did license sales go up when the opened southern zone up for rifle?????
This is just a Band-Aid!!!!!!!!!!!


Doc 
You have a lot of numbers that you throw around from the DEC and other sources are this numbers 100% ?:zip:


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> Same things as what, we're talking about an entirely new season here. This is a tough sell for bowhunters on a bowhunting website, myself included. The increased pressure will effect deer movement, you will not convince me otherwise. The allure of the archery season is the largely undisturbed deer and I'm not sure what an early firearms season will do to that. Squirrel and bird hunting is pretty minimal around here before deer season. PA guys chime in here, how does your ML season in the middle of archery change your deer movement?


Its not in the middeel of archery, it concludes 2 weeks before archery begins. Plenty of cool down time, if the deer even get spooked.

Bird and rabbit hunting is still pretty measurable. Turkey hunting is VERY measureable. Has a fall turkey season hurt archery? Nope....


----------



## doctariAFC

VA2 said:


> NY Hunters do what i will be doing for now on. Take your money and hunt out of state!
> 
> The main reason for this proposal is to try to increase license sales and make more money! Did license sales go up when the opened southern zone up for rifle?????
> This is just a Band-Aid!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Doc
> You have a lot of numbers that you throw around from the DEC and other sources are this numbers 100% ?:zip:


Well, something has been working right with the DEC numbers. OUr herds continue to grow, do they not?

Our troubles with the numbers is not on a statewide or region wide basis, its at the detail level due to lousy hunter reporting rates.

But on a top line basis, I do trust the DEC numbers. Its when we drill down to see more detail that reliability goes out the window.

That one is ON US!!!! Not the DEC. Report your freaking harvest


----------



## doctariAFC

ANother good Q concerning out of state travel to hunt and economic impact. 

Days spent afield dropped from 2001 to 2006 by close to two days. Travel dropped significantly, both in-state and out of state (double-digit % declines)

See gas prices and related travel expense increases for your answers....

This is a trend witnessed across the Nation. Hunters traveling out of state to hunt has dropped over the last five years due to escalating travel costs, license fees and increased homeland security regulations concerning travel with firearms.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> So your saying that because I do not belong to any organizations I have no idea
> what I am saying. How about that I spend 4 months in the woods every day watching and observing for the last 25 yrs.
> 
> *Once again you made another idiotic comment. Hikers campers trail riders are much more easily for deer to adapt to. They know these areas because of the activity all year long. These people They are not in full camo hiding in trees waiting to kill them. For the most part the deer will stay will stay away from these areas anyway during peak hrs.*
> Thanks for all comedy though. There is a bunch of us at work laughing our a----
> off everytime we read one of your statements. You keep reminding me of why I am not in any organizations, but then again I am sure they get a chuckle out of you to.


Greatest statement of ignorance ever made! 

It ain't the lack of seeing people, its the SCENT that does it..... And deer are very used to human scent in the woods, especially in the Southern Zone where noot a single acre is considered "inaccessible". Thanks again....

Holy crow, I cannot believe I read that. Or that someone actually posted that!


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Its not in the middeel of archery, it concludes 2 weeks before archery begins. Plenty of cool down time, if the deer even get spooked.
> 
> Bird and rabbit hunting is still pretty measurable. Turkey hunting is VERY measureable. Has a fall turkey season hurt archery? Nope....


I understand when it is but I'd still like to hear from the PA hunters, its the nearest comparable thing. I think Iowa MLers get first crack too don't they?


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Success rate with blackpowder, based on current number of licensed ML hunters and 2007 harvest figures is (9 days of hunting)
> 
> 7.3%
> 
> Archery success rates based on current license sales and 2007 harvest figures is (@ 50 days of hunting)
> 
> 15.5%
> 
> Biological impacts are going to be nil at the start. Through participation increases (hoped) this will grow and become meaningful tool for antlerless management, which I believe it can, but it will happen slowly rather than overnight, which is just what nature likes anyhow.


You can't compare what MLs have done during the late season to what they will do BEFORE the regular season. I think every tag will get filled. Taking a doe with a rifle at the end of September is easy pickins


----------



## ARCHERYSNOB

I love my smokepole,,or should I say smokeless smokepole. LOL 

This is great news for me and I hope this expansion of hunting opportunities leaves some room for the crossbow. I love all weaponry that delivers backstraps.


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> I understand when it is but I'd still like to hear from the PA hunters, its the nearest comparable thing. I think Iowa MLers get first crack too don't they?


I believe so.

In terms of our neighboring Northeastern States, 7 out of 10 already have an early ML season, with I believe all of them happening right in the middle of their early archery seasons.

Elma Conservation (Tony Gonnello) really did their homework with their resolution.

NYSCC Big Game Committee tweaked it to get the archery conflict out of the plan. The bone of contention will be the in-lines and scopes, which Elma wouldn't budge from, and they had some very good points to support this. Biggest resistence on in-lines came from the Muzzleloaders, but I have it on very good authority they will most likely sign off on this plan.


----------



## VA2

Doc
Our herd grows only in some areas not all!
If numbers are not 100% i don't agree what our herd is estimated at...............


----------



## doctariAFC

ARCHERYSNOB said:


> I love my smokepole,,or should I say smokeless smokepole. LOL
> 
> This is great news for me and I hope this expansion of hunting opportunities leaves some room for the crossbow. I love all weaponry that delivers backstraps.


Two resolutions passed the Big Game Committee concerning crossbows. Hey, I don't really care if we add crossbow or any archery gear in this early season. I'm looking at this as an enhanced antlerless management tool while delivering an added value to Southern Zone Hunters.

The trouble with pushing for the crossbow is this requires a legislative action first, to define the crossbow as a legal hunting implement. 

The proposal as it stands today requires regulation change within the DEC, doesn't need legislature involvement.


----------



## doctariAFC

VA2 said:


> Doc
> Our herd grows only in some areas not all!
> If numbers are not 100% i don't agree what our herd is estimated at...............


Our herd is growing on the whole and in each region. PM me your email address and I'll send onto you my notes from the Big Game Committee Meeting, which began with a presentation by Jeremy Hurst, Sr. Big Game Biologist...


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> You can't compare what MLs have done during the late season to what they will do BEFORE the regular season. I think every tag will get filled. Taking a doe with a rifle at the end of September is easy pickins


You certainly do not believe that, do you?

We have a 16% success rate across the state on DMP, many areas using rifles now, and even rifled shotgun barrles throwing sabots. (and this includes consignment!)

You're not seriously suggesting 100% success rate in Sept., are you?


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> You certainly do not believe that, do you?
> 
> We have a 16% success rate across the state on DMP, many areas using rifles now, and even rifled shotgun barrles throwing sabots.
> 
> You're not seriously suggesting 100% success rate in Sept., are you?


I'm saying that you give me a doe tag and an Encore in September and I'm filling that tag, as are most hunters I know. It will be MUCH easier to kill a doe in September than the end of December. Are you saying the success rate will be comparable to the late season??


----------



## VA2

I don’t what to argue but once again the numbers are not 100% and I don’t care what a committee said I know what is going on in the places I hunt.
These figures are a falsehood of course the numbers they show will be up……..


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> I'm saying that you give me a doe tag and an Encore in September and I'm filling that tag, as are most hunters I know. It will be MUCH easier to kill a doe in September than the end of December. Are you saying the success rate will be comparable to the late season??


Somewhere in between. I sure hope success rates are good, then it becomes a meaningful management tool, and we can reduce DDP and DMAP (maybe even eliminate DMAP) and even reduce DMP to more realistic numbers.

Further, if we improve on the job of managing these deer, the silver hammer being swung by the Farm Bureau and Insurance concerns would be reduced from a 10-pound sledge to a 8 oz ball peen....


----------



## doctariAFC

VA2 said:


> I don’t what to argue but once again the numbers are not 100% and I don’t care what a committee said I know what is going on in the places I hunt.
> These figures are a falsehood of course the numbers they show will be up……..


No, they're not 100%. But the numbers are pretty close. WMU to WMU, I totally agree with you, numbers are vague at best.

But that goes to hunter harvest reporting. If we report our harvest at the rate we did pre-DECALS, the numbers would be far more accurate at the detail level.

What WMU do you hunt? I have the data on DMP issuance and bucks per acre figures for every WMU in the State.


----------



## tackscall

I wish I could add a survey to this thread, what do you think your chances are of taking a doe the last week of September with a modern ML rifle? I would literally put mine at 99.99% and I'm not the greatest deer hunter in the world


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Somewhere in between. I sure hope success rates are good, then it becomes a meaningful management tool, and we can reduce DDP and DMAP (maybe even eliminate DMAP) and even reduce DMP to more realistic numbers.


Success rates would be huge, and hopefully they adjust the # of tags issued the prior year accordingly or else we'll be back to three years ago


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> Success rates would be huge, and hopefully they adjust the # of tags issued the prior year accordingly or else we'll be back to three years ago


What evidence do you have to suggest that? Or is this simply personal opinion without facts?

The State Biologists and Wildlife Managers, the ones who get paid to know this stuff, disagree with you.

Just pointing out facts here Tacks...


----------



## tackscall

What data are they using to decide how many of the tags from last year will get filled in the last week of September?


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> What data are they using to decide how many of the tags from last year will get filled in the last week of September?


Historical success rates on statewide tags and hunter success rates over 10 year period (I believe, could be more, could be less in terms of time periods used), per season, which do not fluctuate a whole heck of a lot year to year.


The formulas have not changed a whole lot over the past 20 years, because hunter success rates have not changed all that much. What has changed is the number of tags issued per hunter, and those hunters that ae better than others will harvest more animals than the "average Schmoe". Still hasn't changed success rates all that much (+/- 2%)

Lots of factors, including weather conditions, play a big role in hunter success.


----------



## Boone

> It won't do a thing to bowhunting or the bowhunting experience.
> 
> Many misconceptions that continue to perpetuate themselves. Deer do not go nocturnal on account of gunshots, nor do they go nocturnal because of high human scent in the woods.


I don't agree with part of this statement, when deer are hunted then they alter their normal habits and some do go nocturnal, the older wiser bucks. You may not see this of course on private property but on public property the deer will be affected it's a proven fact done by studies of radio collered deer.


----------



## skully

*Ignore this bafoon*

I don't agree with part of this statement, when deer are hunted then they alter their normal habits and some do go nocturnal, the older wiser bucks. You may not see this of course on private property but on public property the deer will be affected it's a proven fact done by studies of radio collered deer.

Well said boone.

doctariAFC- Don't you see that everybody is diagreeing with.

You are a clown


----------



## doctariAFC

Boone said:


> I don't agree with part of this statement, when deer are hunted then they alter their normal habits and some do go nocturnal, the older wiser bucks. You may not see this of course on private property but on public property the deer will be affected it's a proven fact done by studies of radio collered deer.


I'm confused. One of the largest areas of public land hunting in NYS is Allegany State Park. Hunting for small game opens Oct 1 throughout the Park (except in the cabin areas) and a lot of birders are out there starting Oct 1.

I have been hunting that park since I have been hunting, and I have seen no evidence of this. 

Photoperiod is going to be the driving factor of deer behavior, coinciding with the rut. Firearms going off are not going to do it.

Although I would agree moreso with you if we set the early ML season abutting right up next to archery season, the cool-down period of two weeks addresses that concern.

This is a similar scenario with Regular Big Game Season and Extended. The 4-week regular season certainly does much to put animals on high alert, no argument here. However, once the second week is concluded, the number of hunters afield drops very sharply. Each extended season I see more animals out and about (as the rut ends) and they're not overly cautious, either. The lessening of hunters in the woods is in part contributing to this, IMHO (I do not have facts to back that up, beyond % hunters afield during late regular/ extended season).

It will not affect archery at all, unless we can harvest a significant number of flatheads before pre-rut. The drive to mate and the lower doe numbers will get the bucks moving. That component will take some time, won't happen after year one, I can tell you that.


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Historical success rates on statewide tags and hunter success rates over 10 year period (I believe, could be more, could be less in terms of time periods used), per season, which do not fluctuate a whole heck of a lot year to year.
> 
> 
> The formulas have not changed a whole lot over the past 20 years, because hunter success rates have not changed all that much. What has changed is the number of tags issued per hunter, and those hunters that ae better than others will harvest more animals than the "average Schmoe". Still hasn't changed success rates all that much (+/- 2%)
> 
> Lots of factors, including weather conditions, play a big role in hunter success.


Again, this is unprecedented, guns having first crack at the deer herd.

Another thing I can't prove with data is that big bucks will be poached. I can walk the RR tracks where I hunt in late Septmeber and see trophy bucks still in bachelor groups in the fields in ML range. I hope I'm wrong about that.


----------



## Boone

> Well, something has been working right with the DEC numbers. OUr herds continue to grow, do they not?


The reason the herd continues to grow is because NY is losing the land to private property, every year more and more of NY gets posted up ....... drive around and take alook , try getting access to posted private property today...............


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> I don't agree with part of this statement, when deer are hunted then they alter their normal habits and some do go nocturnal, the older wiser bucks. You may not see this of course on private property but on public property the deer will be affected it's a proven fact done by studies of radio collered deer.
> 
> Well said boone.
> 
> doctariAFC- Don't you see that everybody is diagreeing with.
> 
> You are a clown


Ahhhhhhh..... Sure sign of your defeat. Thanks, buddy. You have nothing to bring to the table, so attack me personally.

I'll bet you're a liberal democrat, too.

Thanks.... Keep it coming..... This "clown" has far more influence across the state than you'll ever hope to have....


----------



## doctariAFC

Boone said:


> The reason the herd continues to grow is because NY is losing the land to private property, every year more and more of NY gets posted up ....... drive around and take alook , try getting access to posted private property today...............


That is another problem, and this is being driven by land leasing, property taxes, fear of liability, the list is endless.


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> Again, this is unprecedented, guns having first crack at the deer herd.
> 
> Another thing I can't prove with data is that big bucks will be poached. I can walk the RR tracks where I hunt in late Septmeber and see trophy bucks still in bachelor groups in the fields in ML range. I hope I'm wrong about that.


Poaching is what it is. That is something, like deer-car collisions, the DEC has no handle on. 

But that is happening regardless of hunting seasons, regs, etc.

Different issue.


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Poaching is what it is. That is something, like deer-car collisions, the DEC has no handle on.
> 
> But that is happening regardless of hunting seasons, regs, etc.
> 
> Different issue.



If you can legally be out there shooting deer its easier to poach


----------



## skully

I really don't care or have the time to cut and paste stuff from the ny state dec website.

Two people already sent me a private message stating to ignore you because you will go with this BS all day long.

Early muzzleloader will ruin archery season and everybody knows it.


----------



## Boone

> I see more animals out and about (as the rut ends) and they're not overly cautious, either.


The reason being is they have been running hard because of the rut , their trying to put weight back on to carry them through the winter so you see them more in open fields.
You keep saying that gun fire doesn't alter deer moment or their patterns small game hunting may not but when you put deer hunters in the woods with firearms shooting at deer it is going to affect the moment it's a proven fact.
Allegany State Park is big woods like the Adirondacks most guys aren't hunting more then 1000 yards off the road, so sure it's not going to affect the deer as much as a 200 arce area per say.


----------



## Boone

> We have a 16% success rate across the state on DMP, many areas using rifles now, and even rifled shotgun barrles throwing sabots. (and this includes consignment!)


 That's 16% of the people reporting their kills, if NY put a earn a buck tag those numbers would change big time.


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> If you can legally be out there shooting deer its easier to poach


If you're a poacher, you'll poach. Most poaching probably occurs at night with spotlights and pick up trucks on back country roads.

This is something that is up to our ranks to self-police, but also the real problems with short-staffed ECOs in large counties (like Erie, for instance, we have 6 ECOs to cover Erie County - on paper, but with one on active duty in Afghanistan - Mike Phelps, and another set to retire in May, we're back down to 4)

Still, improvements in enforcement and response time has improved since establishing the Central Dispatch Office and tying in the phone numbers to route to this central location. 

Bigger issues involve baiting. This is being done by more hunters than you can imagine.


----------



## doctariAFC

Boone said:


> That's 16% of the people reporting their kills, if NY put a earn a buck tag those numbers would change big time.


No that's 16% based on reported harvest and the deer processor surveys conducted each season by ECOs visiting processors and checking tags for reporting compliance.

On average 45% of all tags used are reported, yet 55% of animals tagged and surveyed through scanning and contacting cent-com show unreported tag numbers. This is how they get to that fudge factor.

Kinda disheartening that,despite hunters demanding mandatory reporting, we seem to have trouble living up to our own demands.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> I really don't care or have the time to cut and paste stuff from the ny state dec website.
> 
> Two people already sent me a private message stating to ignore you because you will go with this BS all day long.
> 
> Early muzzleloader will ruin archery season and everybody knows it.




Until you can back up your unfounded claims with some facts, you're simply another "blissful" hunter who speaks from the heart, lacking logic and fact to support your position.

I'll put my beliefs with those who are professional biologists.

You, on the other hand, are a professional blissful hunter. 

No need to get educated to the facts. Too damaging to your opinion.....

Please get educated.


----------



## doctariAFC

Boone said:


> The reason being is they have been running hard because of the rut , their trying to put weight back on to carry them through the winter so you see them more in open fields.
> You keep saying that gun fire doesn't alter deer moment or their patterns small game hunting may not but when you put deer hunters in the woods with firearms shooting at deer it is going to affect the moment it's a proven fact.
> Allegany State Park is big woods like the Adirondacks most guys aren't hunting more then 1000 yards off the road, so sure it's not going to affect the deer as much as a 200 arce area per say.


But you're not going to find a 200 acre public land plot. MOst public areas in NYS are at least 800-1,000 acres in size, although some smaller parcels may be found in ENY. The state doesn't waste their time buying 100 acres here 200 acres there.

Yet you stated you won't see this on private land as much as on public land.

Which is it?

It is not the gunfire alone that does it for deer movement. It is gunfire coupled with a ton of human scent in the woods. Repetitive gunfire will do more damage than a single shot in the woods will. 

You guys are selectively naming conditions to make your case.


----------



## skully

*Is this smart*

Is it really smart to have people in the woods in the summer were there is no visibility with rifles. In september every thing is still overgrown.

I know you are going to say there not rifles. But theses guns have come along way and shoot pretty far. Were I live, there should not even be a shotgun season.


----------



## ART

flintlock and caplock, open sights, no scopes
I would be in favor of the ml season BUT..the purpose of the hunt was with the use of a primitive weapon not a rife capable of shooting 100's of yards put the in-lines where they belong in gun season not in ml season.......ART


----------



## Buckblood

Doc, why do you have to cram this down our throats? There are some of us that don't want this season. Your opinion isn't the only one. How can we dig up facts, when this is an unprecedented season?

Plus, this is a bowhunting forum, not a ML forum.

New York is a huge state, how do you know there is a doe problem everywhere? There isn't. Stuff like this is why NY will never be a big attraction for non resident hunters.


----------



## doctariAFC

skully said:


> Is it really smart to have people in the woods in the summer were there is no visibility with rifles. In september every thing is still overgrown.
> 
> I know you are going to say there not rifles. But theses guns have come along way and shoot pretty far. Were I live, there should not even be a shotgun season.


I dunno..... They're already out there in September and have been for a very long time.


----------



## doctariAFC

Buckblood said:


> Doc, why do you have to cram this down our throats? There are some of us that don't want this season. Your opinion isn't the only one. How can we dig up facts, when this is an unprecedented season?
> 
> Plus, this is a bowhunting forum, not a ML forum.
> 
> New York is a huge state, how do you know there is a doe problem everywhere? There isn't. Stuff like this is why NY will never be a big attraction for non resident hunters.


I'm not shoving it down anyone's throat. Rather I am answering Qs and attempting to get to all the possible goods and bads baseed on facts.

Thus far the goods outweigh the bads.


----------



## doctariAFC

ART said:


> flintlock and caplock, open sights, no scopes
> I would be in favor of the ml season BUT..the purpose of the hunt was with the use of a primitive weapon not a rife capable of shooting 100's of yards put the in-lines where they belong in gun season not in ml season.......ART


I agree with you.

But some would argue the same thing with archery season. It was intended for primitive archery hunting and compounds with LED sights have no place in the intended primitive season. Let alone aluminum or graphite shaft arrows - primitive would mean wooden arrows.

Let's also understand that permitting in-lines and scopes has done to ML hunting what compound bows did for archery hunting.

Also, the in-line does have better ballistics and accuracy, providing for a more effective hunting implement, like the compound bow. Denial of a more effective implement, which could result in higher game recovery rates is kinda perplexing.

But I do agree with you, and I am a caplock percussion hawken guy. That will never change.


----------



## cbyzerman

*Whats up Doc*

After reading all this for the last 15 minutes I have to ask, why are you on a bowhunting forum trying to get an early muzzleloader season?

From what I read nobody is agreeing with you. And no real bowhunter would ever want this in a million years. And by the way you are trying to shove it down our throats.


----------



## doctariAFC

cbyzerman said:


> After reading all this for the last 15 minutes I have to ask, why are you on a bowhunting forum trying to get an early muzzleloader season?
> 
> From what I read nobody is agreeing with you. And no real bowhunter would ever want this in a million years. And by the way you are trying to shove it down our throats.


Another good Q. Thank you.

The reason why I brought this here is that the highest resistence will come from Archery Hunters.

Also, New York Bowhunters supported the amended resolution in the Big Game Committee Meeting on April 12.

The in-lines are problematic, but, denying in-lines would be like someone telling the bowhunters they couldn't use compounds anymore.

I am hoping to get real objections founded in solid information, rather than emotion. Thus far its been near-impossible to do, and I won't allow emotion to go with a free pass. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## cbyzerman

*Bs*

That is Bull ----.

NY bowhunters supported this. I heard they were in an uproar about this. I am getting on the phone to see if this is true.

I doubt NY bowhunters are for this.


----------



## doctariAFC

cbyzerman said:


> That is Bull ----.
> 
> NY bowhunters supported this. I heard they were in an uproar about this. I am getting on the phone to see if this is true.
> 
> I doubt NY bowhunters are for this.


They were sitting directly behind me in Herkimer County Community College

As was stated in the opening of the thread, the amended proposal that received unanimous supporty from the committee was last 7 days of September, antlerless only, flintlock and caplock only, iron open sights no scopes.

The club that put forth the resolution was adament that they would not remove in-lines and scopes. They did amend the resolution to change season dates and eliminate leftover DMP use.

Without in-lines, the amendment received unanimous support. The trouble is the in-lines and scope sights, but Elma made good, solid and factual points to defend their inclusion of in-lines.


----------



## SteveB

> doctariAFC- Don't you see that everybody is diagreeing with.





> Early muzzleloader will ruin archery season and everybody knows it.





> From what I read nobody is agreeing with you. And no real bowhunter would ever want this in a million years. And by the way you are trying to shove it down our throats.


Its obvious neither of you have read all the threads - there are numerous posts from
BOWHUNTERS here supporting it. Also the NYS's only BOWHUNTING organization will accept it - Kind of kills the "no real bowhunter" arguement.

Apparently this is support for this by bowhunters - actually READ the replies and it would be clear to you.

You might try posting at least a little proof to support any of your claims - would make your opinions at least worth reading.

Steve


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Another good Q. Thank you.
> 
> The reason why I brought this here is that the highest resistence will come from Archery Hunters.
> 
> Also, New York Bowhunters supported the amended resolution in the Big Game Committee Meeting on April 12.
> 
> The in-lines are problematic, but, denying in-lines would be like someone telling the bowhunters they couldn't use compounds anymore.
> 
> I am hoping to get real objections founded in solid information, rather than emotion. Thus far its been near-impossible to do, and I won't allow emotion to go with a free pass.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Rich everyone's biggest objection is the pressure and its effect on bowhunting, which can't be proved or disproved I suppose. You say the cool down period will return them to their normal patterns, we disagree. I don't think a small game hunter or turkey hunter here and there is the same as the orange army doing drives


----------



## tackscall

doctariAFC said:


> Another good Q. Thank you.
> 
> The reason why I brought this here is that the highest resistence will come from Archery Hunters.
> 
> Also, New York Bowhunters supported the amended resolution in the Big Game Committee Meeting on April 12.
> 
> The in-lines are problematic, but, denying in-lines would be like someone telling the bowhunters they couldn't use compounds anymore.
> 
> I am hoping to get real objections founded in solid information, rather than emotion. Thus far its been near-impossible to do, and I won't allow emotion to go with a free pass.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Rich everyone's biggest objection is the pressure and its effect on bowhunting, which can't be proved or disproved I suppose. You say the cool down period will return them to their normal patterns, we disagree. I don't think a small game hunter or turkey hunter here and there is the same as the orange army doing drives. And you're right, we're all emotionally attached to our ever-shrinking bow season


----------



## SteveB

cbyzerman said:


> That is Bull ----.
> 
> NY bowhunters supported this. I heard they were in an uproar about this. I am getting on the phone to see if this is true.
> 
> I doubt NY bowhunters are for this.


To the batphone!!:wink::wink:

Steve


----------



## doctariAFC

SteveB said:


> Its obvious neither of you have read all the threads - there are numerous posts from
> BOWHUNTERS here supporting it. Also the NYS's only BOWHUNTING organization will accept it - Kind of kills the "no real bowhunter" arguement.
> 
> Apparently this is support for this by bowhunters - actually READ the replies and it would be clear to you.
> 
> You might try posting at least a little proof to support any of your claims - would make your opinions at least worth reading.
> 
> Steve


Thanks Steve!

Its funny. I was sitting in the meeting as the Region 9 Big Game Rep, with Region 8 to my immediate right and NYB's rep directly behind me. 

We also had QDMA Rep there as well.

We spoke directly with Jeremy Hurst concerning any biological concerns, and impact would be negligible (based on no in-lines). But the DEC also desires additional antlerless management tools for Southern Zone, as parts of our area is suffering severe crop damage, high deer-car collisions, etc.

There is large support across the State for this approach, including in-lines. I think if we could have had in-lines chucked, support would be unanimous, but participation would stink on ice, and no one would write to support this regulation change.

The vote on the amended resolution was UNANIMOUS. 11 for, 0 against.

In lines changes this dynamic, but the largest resistence came from NYMLA, not NYB. I believe NYMLA will sign onto this as well, although I do wish that Elma would have amended their resolution to reflect our recommendations. Water under the bridge. I agree with my Region 8 colleague that the way this is written, including in-lines, has the best chance at adoption.


----------



## Buckblood

Since nobody really knew about this, but those reps, who are in the loop, how do you know they speak for the majority of bowhunters?

And since this is the first season of its kind, of coarse we don't have proof of its impact.

One of the greatest states ever, Illinois, has a total of 7 days of gun hunting. Why does NY need five weeks???


----------



## Buckblood

doctariAFC said:


> Another good Q. Thank you.
> 
> The reason why I brought this here is that the highest resistence will come from Archery Hunters.
> 
> Also, New York Bowhunters supported the amended resolution in the Big Game Committee Meeting on April 12.
> 
> The in-lines are problematic, but, denying in-lines would be like someone telling the bowhunters they couldn't use compounds anymore.
> 
> I am hoping to get real objections founded in solid information, rather than emotion. Thus far its been near-impossible to do, and I won't allow emotion to go with a free pass.
> 
> Hope that helps.


So your admitting that this season *will* impact bowhunting?


----------



## doctariAFC

tackscall said:


> Rich everyone's biggest objection is the pressure and its effect on bowhunting, which can't be proved or disproved I suppose. You say the cool down period will return them to their normal patterns, we disagree. I don't think a small game hunter or turkey hunter here and there is the same as the orange army doing drives. And you're right, we're all emotionally attached to our ever-shrinking bow season


I can understand all of this, believe me. 

I think the bigger problem is being exacerbated by the loss of 8 days this year due to the calendar. Tacks, we all got hoodwinked by the opening day move. ALL OF US (well, not all of us....) We all saw this potential when the seasons were established with Saturday openers (that Saturday AFTER Columbus Day is BS. Open on Oct 15 and leave it!)

And of course the response from the DEC concerning this subject wasn't the best, either.

We need to get the season openers reverted back. It accomplished nothing but to set our economic impact back 30 years.


----------



## doctariAFC

Buckblood said:


> So your admitting that this season *will* impact bowhunting?


where in my post does it say that?

Won't impact the bowhunting season one bit


----------



## doctariAFC

Buckblood said:


> Since nobody really knew about this, but those reps, who are in the loop, how do you know they speak for the majority of bowhunters?
> 
> And since this is the first season of its kind, of coarse we don't have proof of its impact.
> 
> One of the greatest states ever, Illinois, has a total of 7 days of gun hunting. Why does NY need five weeks???


We got the extra week on firearms through the move of opening day from Monday to Saturday. Gave us that "coveted" 4th weekend, which no one hunts anyhow, unless you're a blackpowder or extended season hunter looking to scout.

What are your thoughts about that move? Changing opening day for archery to 1st Sat after Columbus day and reg season opener to third saturday of November?


----------



## three under

doctariAFC said:


> Thank you. Now I'll respond.
> 
> Point # 1 - DMP reduction and license sales reduction. FOLLY and HOGWASH. Case in point... DMP issuances jumped from 365,000 in 2006 to 511,000 in 2007. End result? We LOST 9% of hunters, accounting for a 16% drop in license/ stamp sales.I have seen all these numbers before. License sales have been droping for years but years that DMP's availability is low the sales drop even more. So lets elliminate DMP's and then cry when are resident Super Sportsman tags cost $150.
> 
> Point # 2 - Current harvest trends from the DEC indicate ML hunters harvest a very low number of BBs as a % of antlerless harvest, running @ 15% vs 27% statewide average. Indeed, archers take more BBs during early archery than MLers do. I have a 30 year harvest history to prove it.How can you compare ML hunting in December to ML hunting in September?
> Point # 3 - Risk to hunters is lower than current risk to hunters in regular season. Bear in mind we are using SINGLE SHOT ML rifles, not repeaters or firearms with magazines. The Lion's share of accidents happen during regular season. In fact, according to the safety reports I have from the DEC over the past decade, not a single incident of any black powder hunting accidents.
> Your missing my point completely, I know how the gun hunters in my area kill deer and that is by driveing them,they are going to do the same with an early ML season only now were adding the risk of not being able to see the other drivers.
> Point # 4 - This season does NOT use DMP. Nor does early archery season tags. State already issues tags which are valid statewide, do they not? These are independent of DMP, and during early archery and extended season, these tags (Big Game Antlered, ML/ Bow antlerless only, ML/Bow deer of either sex) are managed far differently than DMP, and indeed do not hurt or alter too much the overall deer management plan. I can refer you to DEC Biologist Jeremy Hurst, Big Game Biologist for NYS, for better insight.
> You must be completely under estimateing the amount of deer that are gonna fall if you let 100 yard weapons into the wods in mid September. Areas that dont even issue DMP's because they are trying to recover population are gonna have does wiped out.
> Point # 5 - Hogwash with the treestands. Besides, if you're placing treestands (portables) at end of September, you're begging for a problem to begin with. ML hunters in the woods during Sept will not increase potential theft. Do you have any numbers to back this up, or is this just a wild claim?
> Begging for a ploblem? I'm looseing treestands off my own property. Archery season opens the middle of october,when do you hang your stands the day before the opener? I have never lost a tree stand or thrown off a tresspasser during archery season it allways happens durring gun and mulleloader season. Unless we go to flintlocks we are dealing with the same hunters.
> Point # 6 - Deer will feed when deer will feed. Nocturnal behavior begins in earnest due to photoperiod and the rut, not people in the woods. Again, if this were true, I'm surprised you aren't clamouring for elimination of the Squirrel season AND small game opener on Oct 1. :doh:In over 15 years of scouting and hanging tree stands in September I have never come across a small game hunter in my hunting spots while scouting and hanging tree stands. Fact: Deer hunting puts deer on high alert. This is why archery season comes first. Because of the limited shooting range bowhunters get to hunt deer before the pressures of gun season.
> 
> Point # 7 - Again, if high alert is the problem, why aren't you pushing for end of Squirrel hunting in Sept. and end of Oct 1 small game/ bird hunting? Again,you will not even find a pick up parked on the side of the road around here when those seasons are opened. If you dont think deer know the difference between getting hunted and some just walking their dogs thru the woods you need to get your head out of the books and spend some time in a tree stand observing.
> You probably do have 100 more, but it certainly appears light on facts, heavy on emotion.
> 
> A question for you.... Which Federated Club do you belong to? Are you a member of that club's respective Big Game Committee? Are you a regular attendee of any County Federation Meetings? Are you active in County level Big Game Committee Meetings? Do you ever attend the NYSCC Meetings?
> I'm not sure why it matters but no. I have a full time job and a family to raise,between that and hunting and fishing I sometimes miss three consecutive meals.
> Realize that I am part of this process, and have been for quite some time. Did you notice in my signature line what I am involved with? You spent a little time looking at my avatar and little quote, but did you notice the signature?I notice everybodys signature and I'm not sure how it makes you any more qualified to any of the other posters on this thread? I'm armed with common sence and 20 years of observation in the field. I allso listen to hundreds of fellow hunters and their opinions. Should I put these creds. in my sig?
> What information would you like to get better educated on the sport of hunting in NYS, all facets? I can even provide you with more data than you can handle regarding the fishing industry in NYS..... What would you like to see?


 I have been liveing and breathing NYS hunting and fishing my entire life. What are you gonna teach me? You gonna give me some more stats? You yourself posted in this thread the estimated percentage of hunters that actually report their kills and at the same time you want to drown me in statistics. Save your breath.


----------



## VA2

Three Under
Thats what I have been saying all along how can you go by numbers when they don't hold water............


----------



## sits in trees

this is all very exciting.......


----------



## gjs4

I admire the tenacity and courage of those continually hanging in there on this thread. Gotta repsect folks with passion and actions for what htey belive in.

BUT, i dont like the idea and dont agree with everything stated....
It is great to hear that kids can hunt ealrier and the physically challanged may get crossbows though.


----------



## Punch_Free4L

I would like to see no guns at all, and a 2 1/2 month archery season.::behindsof


----------



## SteveB

VA2 said:


> Three Under
> Thats what I have been saying all along how can you go by numbers when they don't hold water............



Again - emotional only arguement.
Show some proof the numbers are all wrong - step up and support your position. If the "numbers are all wrong", it should be exceedingly easy for you to provide REAL examples of this.

Steve


----------



## VA2

Steve B
Call the DEC and ask if thier harvest Numbers are 100%


----------



## SteveB

VA2 said:


> Steve B
> Call the DEC and ask if thier harvest Numbers are 100%


So you are saying that NYS hunters do not report all their kills? Why - do they not want the best info to set harvest #'s?
And because of this, we cannot make any changes based on the numbers?
Whose fault is this?
And what basis do we use to make changes then - internet opinion polls? Bet that would give us great factual data.ukey:

What states get 100% and how do they achieve it?
What is the cost, how is it paid for, and how much are YOU willing to spend to get these 100% numbers?

Steve


----------



## tackscall

SteveB said:


> So you are saying that NYS hunters do not report all their kills? Why - do they not want the best info to set harvest #'s?
> And because of this, we cannot make any changes based on the numbers?
> Whose fault is this?
> And what basis do we use to make changes then - internet opinion polls? Bet that would give us great factual data.ukey:
> 
> What states get 100% and how do they achieve it?
> What is the cost, how is it paid for, and how much are YOU willing to spend to get these 100% numbers?
> 
> Steve


There are no numbers for a Southern Zone early gun season


----------



## tackscall

I'm in favor of mandatory check stations, even if it would mean a couple of dollars more on my license to fund them. Or mandatory phone/internet reporting for every tag you were issued, whether you filled it or not. With the technology out there its too easy to report to not have it


----------



## ARCHERYSNOB

Not to hijack,but I am against mandatory check in stations only because I am not looking forward to a long line of redtape after a long day of hunting. Just a time consuming hassle that does not seem to be needed.




but to get back on topic, I have a question, and I bounced it off of some of my hunting buddies,and we are all alittle confused.

-I hunt in many places in the southern zone and do not see the need to take more does with the smokepoles in many areas. When rifle season came along in the last couple of years,,, less and less and now ZERO doe tags were given out,,,,however lotsa nuissance tags were given out in same doe free areas,,such as Greenville,Palenville(green county). We had no chance of getting a doe tag,,and I had 2 preference points,,,and now they want to open a ML season that will alow us to take a doe?

I think a ML season would be awesome,, but do not understand why we cannot shoot the does in rifle season in certain areas,,but then want to open up ML season to shoot them.


----------



## tackscall

ARCHERYSNOB said:


> Not to hijack,but I am against mandatory check in stations only because I am not looking forward to a long line of redtape after a long day of hunting. Just a time consuming hassle that does not seem to be needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but to get back on topic, I have a question, and I bounced it off of some of my hunting buddies,and we are all alittle confused.
> 
> -I hunt in many places in the southern zone and do not see the need to take more does with the smokepoles in many areas. When rifle season came along in the last couple of years,,, less and less and now ZERO doe tags were given out,,,,however lotsa nuissance tags were given out in same doe free areas,,such as Greenville,Palenville(green county). We had no chance of getting a doe tag,,and I had 2 preference points,,,and now they want to open a ML season that will alow us to take a doe?
> 
> I think a ML season would be awesome,, but do not understand why we cannot shoot the does in rifle season in certain areas,,but then want to open up ML season to shoot them.


The way I understand it you would be using your previous year's Bow/Muzzloader either sex tag to shoot a doe in the early season


----------



## tackscall

For the record, NYB is not in favor of this. I just received this:




I represented NYB at this meeting and NYB did NOT vote in support of this nor would we support this in the future either. Thanks for alerting us to this information and let me know if you have any questions.

Martin Seeley
Vice President
New York Bowhunters, Inc.


----------



## ARCHERYSNOB

Thats just another reason why this NY bowhunter will not join NYB-joe


----------



## Campo

Its nice to see that New York Bowhunters is going to take a stand against this! :nod:

As a former resident of 25 years (only 10 of them hunting) it is nice to know that there are groups that are concerned about bowhunters as opposed to general hunting!

Keep it up, and, thank you! 



tackscall said:


> For the record, NYB is not in favor of this. I just received this:
> I represented NYB at this meeting and NYB did NOT vote in support of this nor would we support this in the future either. Thanks for alerting us to this information and let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> Martin Seeley
> Vice President
> New York Bowhunters, Inc.


----------



## cbyzerman

*Wheres Doc*

Lying mother------


----------



## SteveB

cbyzerman said:


> Lying mother------


Or the NYB rep is being less then honest. It would not be the 1st time - I was point blank lied to by the past president about the class non profit organization that their corporation was. When I found out differently, he told me he did not have to address me since my membership had expired at that time.

I'm done with them - their membership is falling because they are basically a closed organization. I rejoined recently with the offer to help improve communication between the officer elite and the general membership. For months ago I was told they would discuss ways for this to happen and someone would get back to me. The only communication since then was to thank me for my dues!

Its time for a new organization for NY bowhunters - one that will be steered by and responsive to the bowhunters of the state.
Steve


----------



## brj14

Wow this thread went down hill. First, Doc has done more for NY hunting then most of us can imagine(i've done alittle research). He is involed with the actual process to change hunting laws in NY. We sit on AT and complain! That being said i have mixed veiws on a sept. ML season. I see the potential for better herd management and increased doe harvest(which we need in Erie). But I can't overlook the a few things that concern me. Sorry no numbers to back this up. I have to agree that poaching WILL increase simply due to the extra opportunity hunters will have being in the woods. And I can't agree that a ML season won't impact archery. Deer adapt to hikers,campers etc but hunters are a whole different ballgame. We go into the thick brush, the bedding areas, and the food sources. We disrupt deer and their patters even when we try not to. In my opion archery in NY will forever be changed. Wether it's for good or bad remains to be seen.


----------



## adkarcher

I represented NYB at this meeting and I am not being dishonest as accused above. I did not vote in support of this proposal. End.

Martin Seeley


----------



## tackscall

adkarcher said:


> I represented NYB at this meeting and I am not being dishonest as accused above. I did not vote in support of this proposal. End.
> 
> Martin Seeley


Thanks for the reply


----------



## greenboy

this idea stinks,does-buck will go active at nite, will be extra wise by bow season, i like bowhunting this will ruin it for any one who loves hunting deer,ml season will be like opening of shotgun a kill day blast them,not real hunting to me.ml season inlines have ruined the late season with there 150 yard guns... when it came about 30 years ago it was round ball, patch. how long before inlines woud be in the new season. inlines should be outlawed in any ML SEASON ..... just sit at the end of a newly cut crop field an bang away at 150 yards if fall in field drive out an get them,if they get in woods let yotes have them they need food to,do not forget to have a few tags signed over,so the fun never stops. i have supported ml season from the start,this ends it,as for the bull about button bucks:darkbeer: quit shooting small deer, if u do u should have to put it on your buck tag if its unfilled.... if its brown it goes down it will never change


----------



## davejohnson2

make bow season a week shorter AND add in some extra blasting to scare the deer? doesnt sound good to me.. what i (and many others) who have discussed this want bow season to start the first saturday of oct. then, after bow season have a 7-10 day gun season (instead of a month) then the late muzzleloader for 2 weeks or so instead of a week.


----------



## alwayslookin

*How many of you*

will actually hunt this early with a ML.

I am betting the impact will be less than significant.

Yes, I hope bow season starts Oct.1 south and Sept. 15th up north.......but I can't see whining about a small setback in season.

How many of you hunted when a buck during bow season meant NO gun hunting.....unless you had a doe tag.......and that doe tag had co permitees and was not valid during bow season. It was not that long ago.

In my ideal world, there would be a gun season for 9 days starting the Sat before Thanksgiving.......it isn't going to happen. 

A synched opener with PA would be nice too....ain't gonna happpen.

If DEC can target areas that NEED antlerless harvest......I think it is a good thing......there are areas like this.

Doc.....thanks for the hard work....we can try to change things , or we can all gripe about how we hate the present system....and then do nothing to change it.


----------



## alwayslookin

*Also....*

If the CFAB and DEC are charged with managing a rsource in ITS best interst.....not theirs......antlerless harvest should happen Early.

Bear hunters up north are out the first Sat in Sept......very few accidents.

Remember....participation is not mandatory.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Here in VA we've been dealing with ML use during bow for many years. First it was 1 week that was between archery and gun that was a dead week that no one had. Then archery got that week. Now it's 2 weeks for ML. They recently increased the time in western VA from 1 to 2 weeks. Once you let them in the door...... well you know. And yes it IMHO does impact hunting. More turn out for the chance to hunt prime time with what amounts to a single shot high power rifle. Also the ML season is prime rut time. I don't know NY rules on ML but any ruling that allows guns in archery is a step backwards for archers.


----------



## tackscall

alwayslookin said:


> will actually hunt this early with a ML.
> 
> I am betting the impact will be less than significant.
> 
> Yes, I hope bow season starts Oct.1 south and Sept. 15th up north.......but I can't see whining about a small setback in season.
> 
> How many of you hunted when a buck during bow season meant NO gun hunting.....unless you had a doe tag.......and that doe tag had co permitees and was not valid during bow season. It was not that long ago.
> 
> In my ideal world, there would be a gun season for 9 days starting the Sat before Thanksgiving.......it isn't going to happen.
> 
> A synched opener with PA would be nice too....ain't gonna happpen.
> 
> If DEC can target areas that NEED antlerless harvest......I think it is a good thing......there are areas like this.
> 
> Doc.....thanks for the hard work....we can try to change things , or we can all gripe about how we hate the present system....and then do nothing to change it.


What's the small setback? If you're referring to losing that last weekend to gun season I think that was a huge loss.


----------

