# Help! Tail left!



## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

tail left is normally weak, but you are very stiff with that setup.


make sure you're not getting any contact and center shot is correct, then check idler lean and twist one side of your yoke to correct


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## nccrutch (Feb 26, 2003)

I had a tail-left tear for the last year or so, with a couple of different bows. I griped and complained and nearly drove myself crazy. Then, while shooting one night, a friend said "why is your wrist all wrinkled?" He was referring to the back of my hand why i was drawing and holding the bow. Apparently, somewhere down the line, i had stated putting a lot of "hand" into the bow. While drawing, i would push my wrist into the grip of the bow. My hand was sorta bent back to the left (causing the wrinkles on the backside). He told me to "roll" my hand out of there. I did, and my wrist was now straight and the handle was resting right on my thumb-pad. It felt weird, but i did it. I ran over to the paper and fired a shot with my "new" grip and BAMM, bullet hole. Shot after shot was a bullet hole. I had fallen into a bad form issue and didn't even know it. Upon thinking about it more, i remember looking up at the top cam at full draw and seeing the string coming off at an angle. I sorta wrote it off as a bow-torque-cam lean-thing. But now with the right grip, i look up there and everything is tracking straight. Sorry for the long story, but this could be part of your problem. I never woulda thought in a hundred years that it was ME!!!:wink:


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## ButchrCrekHuntr (Mar 26, 2005)

As nccrutch stated above, it is most likely a grip/hand torque issue that most people just don't want to admit to. When all else fails, that is what it usually turns out to be.

When you get a left tear, alter your grip slightly so it moves the front of the bow to the right. You turn or move the back or string side of the bow with your grip just slightly in the direction of the tear.


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## Sep/timber/heat (Dec 8, 2007)

One thing that may help you is Eastons "Arrow Tuning and Maintenance Guide". You can find it free if you search online. Now I can only ask the simple questions. Are you getting contact? Try shooting a bare shaft. Remember you are shooting close so rest movement will seem big. Your tear should mean move the rest right. Also are you shooting fingers or release? I have to guess release. I had a tear problem when I was tuning a bow a few years ago. Couldn't figure it out. This may seem strange but the problem was in the release I was using. DON"T cheese out on the quality of release. It is vital. I know most people don't like to hear the hand-torque issue, but it is most common. I would personally check everthing twice with someone watching before I started to twist cables, especially if the bow is new.


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

Sep/timber/heat said:


> before I started to twist cables, especially if the bow is new.


I just HAVE to ask. If you had a bad idler lean on a single cam bow, you wouldn't straighten it up because its a new bow?  That doesn't make a bit of sense


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## Sep/timber/heat (Dec 8, 2007)

I've had bad idler lean out of the box. As a matter of fact, I've had strings roll off idlers on a few NEW bows due to excessive lean. Sometimes manufactures screw up and create a bad bow for one reason or another. I don't know how much lean this individual may have, but it is a new bow(I think). I would always recomend having a Pro-Shop look at a bow with bad idler lean. I might or might not start twisting yokes. As you know, that can change specs. Not only creating other problems but may void a new bow warranty.ukey:


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

Sep/timber/heat said:


> I might or might not start twisting yokes. As you know, that can change specs. Not only creating other problems but may void a new bow warranty.ukey:


 



heck yes it will change specs, it will make an axle to axle difference on one side and make them even. You want that. Tell me, what other problems can you create by taking out idler lean? I've got to hear this


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## Sep/timber/heat (Dec 8, 2007)

Lets go back to the question. It's been my experience that most if not all tears are the result of bad knock, rest, anchor, or grip locations. I did not disagree with your solution to cam lean. That is the solution to cam lean in most cases. In MY experience, bad cam lean results in different tears at different yardages due to the fact the arrow most frequently cork-screws, but you may have a different opinion. If you read my first post I believe I said that I would check everything twice before I started to twist yokes. NOT that I wouldn't!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

ats said:


> heck yes it will change specs, it will make an axle to axle difference on one side and make them even. You want that. Tell me, what other problems can you create by taking out idler lean? I've got to hear this


I have a new Black Ice. I already have a problem with Blazer vane clearance on the cables. I also have about 1/2 " variance (lean) in the string coming off the idle wheel to the nocking point. If I take out the lean that will put the string even closer to the cables making the Blazer clearance an even bigger problem. 
I've got a high left tear on paper. Wish I had known about these problems before laying out the $$$.


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## sierraghost (Aug 14, 2005)

yeah I wish I knew my brand new Drenalin would have given me problems, I have changed 400 to 340 axis shafts, Mine is 29" draw and I am using 28 1/4" long shafts with standard and blazer vanes, I've talked to mathews tech line and have tried everything, and I'm wondering if those torqueless grips make any difference, but on the other hand, I've tried every grip possible, so I'll check back later here.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

Try setting your rest to 11/16's centershot, nock about 1/8" high and adjust the idler so that when you lay an arrow on the shelf side the tip meets the string at the nocking point.


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## sierraghost (Aug 14, 2005)

I'll give it a try again, right now, when I lay a shaft on the shelf side of the idler, it is slightly turning toward the nock point, but almost parallel with the string, thanks , I am like the guy who started this thread, I paper tuned my last drenalin no problem , perfect bullet holes within 15 shots, this one, I'm working on 50 shots now, and still tearing nock point left about an inch or less, but completely level. If you 'd like, pm me, with a phone number if you think you might have some know how on this subject, I have tried all the center shots, and I have the shaft centered with the berger hole.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

As close as you are I would think that 1 or 1.5 twists in the left side yoke should do it. Are you getting very consistent tears? Does a bare shaft show the same tear? I'll check back tomorrow morning and PM a number if needed. I am on the East Coast and headed to bed in a minute.


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## Tecumseh (Jan 14, 2007)

I would recommend checking for these:

1) Normally, the 'baseline' dimension for the center shot for a Mathews is approx. 11/16 from the riser, at the berger button hole, out to the center of the shaft. 

2) Be sure to turn your cock vane out (not up or down) so it does not touch the cables.

3) If you are using a drop away rest make sure the drop timing is correct and that it is not interfering with the arrows travel. 

4) Be sure you are using the correct arrow spine. It is a function of Arrow Length not Draw Length. Check Easton's Arrow Charts to verify. 

5) Also check the Front-of-Center (FOC) of the shaft. Here is how: http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/foc.asp

6) Info on tuning that may help: http://www.goldtip.com/downloads/arrowassemblyandtuning.pdf

7) You may be torquing the bow. There are several threads in AT and the Mathews Forum ( http://forums.mathewsinc.com/ ) that explain methods of improving or eliminating torque. More specifically: http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=54841

8) Probably the most important thing to remember is that PAPER TUNING should not be totally dependent upon. Human error usually is the result of irregular paper tears. You should check paper tuning at 2 distances from paper to use for correlation. See 9) for better methods of tuning.

9) WALK BACK Tuning is what I feel is best and really gives you a good idea of how the bow shoots relative to your style of gripping the bow. Here is more information on Walk Back Tuning: http://backinspec.com/Walk_Back_Tuning.mht

...I hope this helps. Send a PM if you would like more information.


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

*Tear*

Also curious if you shoot a D-loop or right off the string? I had a left tear I could not get rid of. I shoot right off the string and had one of those little rubber spacers between my release and my nock. Tore it off and bingo left tear was gone. Now I just shoot with my release right under my nock.


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## warrenc1 (Sep 24, 2007)

had the same problem for years with my mathews bows...I was about ready to pull my hair out. I tried everything and found that I was putting a lot of torque as a result of that huge wood grip. I took my grip off and sanded in to almost nothing, refinished it and changed my wrist position slightly and the problem was fixed.


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## rat0502 (Jan 5, 2006)

if you use a D-loop make sure the knots are tied opposite eachother not on the same side. alot feel that on the same side causes pressure on that side. 
FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD!!! lol


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## sierraghost (Aug 14, 2005)

I have 340 and 400 axis st shafts, they are 28 1/4" long, that is a tad short, at full draw the end of the shaft is 1/2" from the prongs . I think the grip might have a percentage of fault here, but yeah, super consistant 1 inch left tear, I changed the yoke back to dead even ata, and slightly did a high wrist grip and the tear went to around 5/8" of a tear left. I am just a little stunted because of the last dren I had, I effortlessly shot a bullet hole in 15 shots, am I just worrying about the wrong thing, is walk back tuning the way to go, I just always had, a clean shooting arrow through paper, and could bullseye at 70 yards no problem, It's just nice to know that the bow is paper rippin good, you know what I mean. But just to update everyone reading this, I have used every grip possible, switched every speed on the drop away. I set the center shot 11/16" and so forth in and out. same tear still, both shafts with a 100 grain field tip. I took out a quarter a turn at a time out of the lower limb, same tear. Changed yoke twists both 2 turns right and left sides, still same rip. Right now, the ata is 33" on both sides exactly, limbs fully seated down to 70 lb. right hander bow, and have both blazer vanes and duravanes. I have a D loop on it right now, and both are tied opposite of each other, top swings over to the bottom right side then tied. WIERD!


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

*Idler*

Ghost, 
I have tuned many a Mathews bow and I am convinced that your issue is in your yoke/Idler lean. If your Idler wheel is perfectly inline with the bow at rest, its wrong. You need the idler to be perfectly inline at full draw. Try this, press it and remove the yoke (One side at a time) untwist until the strands are straight the put 9 full twists in the non-shelf side, and put 6 full twists in the left side. Looking from behind the bow your idler should lean slightly out toward the shelf and away from the riser on the bottom. Check this using an arrow accros the idler toward the nock. At the nock point you should have a 1/8 inch gap between the arrow shaft and the center serving. Adjust your harness until it's right, but do it evenly from this starting point of turns. i.e. one half twist added on one side to one half twist taken away from the opposite side until its right. Make sure between adjustments that you unpress the bow and draw/shoot it to make sure everything is settled really good, then check and recheck. Also, check your nock point. Mathews just love a nock about 1/8 to 3/16 high. If this dont work PM me and I will call you.:darkbeer:


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

Mine had a very slight left tear until I adjusted the yoke so that my tip meets the nocking point when a shaft is laid on the side of the idler. I think it is an approximate thing and could be slightly different from bow to bow?


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

*Yes*



DaddyPaul said:


> Mine had a very slight left tear until I adjusted the yoke so that my tip meets the nocking point when a shaft is laid on the side of the idler. I think it is an approximate thing and could be slightly different from bow to bow?


DaddyPaul, yes it will vary slightly, not from bow to bow but rather from shooter to shooter. The fine tuning you mentioned is compensation for your particular shooting form/bow torque. The directions I have provided are an excellent starting point. The reason the tear changed when he changed his grip is because by doing so he also changed the way he was torqueing the bow. And dont take it personnal Ghost, EVERYONE torques their bow, it's not a form flaw well, most of the time, but rather the way each persons bow and muscle structures develop and work differently. It's what makes us all individuals. :darkbeer:

Also, dont get caught up with the twisting of the yoke system. I just tuned a bow that ended up with 12 twists in the right side and 3 in the left. Shoots like a dream. In other words it might look a little different if you happen to need a few extra twists. Remember, you are tuning the bow to YOU so someone else may not shoot worth a darn with.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

Right on brother, right on. Mine shoots great with my stock grip on or with my Carter sideplates. 

Last year it was recommended on the Mathews site (in a sticky on the Tech page) to have the tip in line with the nocking point and this year or late last year the mod who had the "sticky", changed it to the 1/8" clearance thing.

Like I said mine tune better the "old" way but it is still just an approximate setting and will more than likely need a little tweaking like you stated for each shooter.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Using an arrow on the idler.....and getting the point to meet the nock point on the string.....what about different diameter arrow shafts? Which size should someone use? Using a different sized shaft will skew the results by changing the actual amount of idler lean in degrees of angle. Kind of sketchy at best I'd think.:noidea:

Personally, I'd remove the grip and shoot off the riser to see what would happen with checking for fletching contact being the second thing I'd try. Incurable left tears, for me anyway, have been fletch related.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

XP35 said:


> Using an arrow on the idler.....and getting the point to meet the nock point on the string.....what about different diameter arrow shafts? Which size should someone use? Using a different sized shaft will skew the results by changing the actual amount of idler lean in degrees of angle. Kind of sketchy at best I'd think.:noidea:
> 
> Personally, I'd remove the grip and shoot off the riser to see what would happen with checking for fletching contact being the second thing I'd try. Incurable left tears, for me anyway, have been fletch related.



I actually think they mean that the side of the shaft will have a 1/8" gap between it and the nocking point, not the actual field tip? I mis-typed I guess? 

For my bow though a "normal" sized carbon arrow (GT 55/75) when laid across the shelf side of the idler, the tip lines up perfectly with the nocking point and I get bullet holes with a grip, or no grip. :wink:+

Oh yeah, I did say it was an "approximate" thing!


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

*Shaft*



XP35 said:


> Using an arrow on the idler.....and getting the point to meet the nock point on the string.....what about different diameter arrow shafts? Which size should someone use? Using a different sized shaft will skew the results by changing the actual amount of idler lean in degrees of angle. Kind of sketchy at best I'd think.:noidea:
> 
> Personally, I'd remove the grip and shoot off the riser to see what would happen with checking for fletching contact being the second thing I'd try. Incurable left tears, for me anyway, have been fletch related.


Does not matter what diameter the shaft is. You are using the side of the shaft on the idler and the same side of the shaft near the nock point. Infact, I take the tip off my shaft when tuning the idler, makes it easier to see. As sketchy as you may think it sounds it works. As Paul and I have both stated this is a good starting point. Fine tuning is usually necessary. Most people put way too much thought into the whole yoke tuning process and become overwhelmed by it. After you have tuned a few using the yoke method it becomes very simple and very effective.:darkbeer:
Also, Paul you are correct in that they used to recommend the arrow touch the nock point, now they recommend an 1/8 inch gap. this is due to the shorter ATA bows. the torquing of the bow becomes more pronounced across the shorter span and need further lean to counteract it. It should also be noted that if you are attempting to yoke tune immediatly after replacing string and cable, set up as stated above, shoot 30-50 shots before attempting to fine tune the yoke.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

I just tune the top cam straight at full draw on my Hoyts. Kinda' takes the guesswork out of it. I am assuming that that is what you're trying to do with the Mat idlers....leaving them canted a bit at rest to get them straight vertically at full draw. I have done this with a few friends' single cam bows, though, and we got them to tune OK. Not sure that's why, though.


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

XP35 said:


> I just tune the top cam straight at full draw on my Hoyts. Kinda' takes the guesswork out of it. I am assuming that that is what you're trying to do with the Mat idlers....leaving them canted a bit at rest to get them straight vertically at full draw. I have done this with a few friends' single cam bows, though, and we got them to tune OK. Not sure that's why, though.


My post #20



BuckWyld said:


> Ghost,
> I have tuned many a Mathews bow and I am convinced that your issue is in your yoke/Idler lean. If your Idler wheel is perfectly inline with the bow at rest, its wrong. You need the idler to be perfectly inline at full draw. Try this, press it and remove the yoke (One side at a time) untwist until the strands are straight the put 9 full twists in the non-shelf side, and put 6 full twists in the left side. Looking from behind the bow your idler should lean slightly out toward the shelf and away from the riser on the bottom. Check this using an arrow accros the idler toward the nock. At the nock point you should have a 1/8 inch gap between the arrow shaft and the center serving. Adjust your harness until it's right, but do it evenly from this starting point of turns. i.e. one half twist added on one side to one half twist taken away from the opposite side until its right. Make sure between adjustments that you unpress the bow and draw/shoot it to make sure everything is settled really good, then check and recheck. Also, check your nock point. Mathews just love a nock about 1/8 to 3/16 high. If this dont work PM me and I will call you.:darkbeer:


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

Gothca'!:wink: I missed that part I guess.....:embara:

SO why not just do it at full draw and take the guesswork out of it? I do understand most guys don't have drawboards, but two guys and a hook in the ceiling works wonders.


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## 458win (Jun 8, 2007)

*thanks*

I believe my problem rested in my grip on the bow. A new torqueless "shrewd" grip is on the way and we will see if that helps solve the problem. Thanks to all that have responded! If a new grip doesn't solve the problem I will have it looked at by somebody who knows what there doing Also I do have a D-loop with it tied on opp. sides.


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## DaddyPaul (Oct 24, 2003)

"Torqueless" is not an accurate term as even a Shrewd can be torqued easily. Have you ever tried one out? They are really squared off on the backstrap portion.

Why not pull the stock grip off, wrap it with some tennis racket tape and see if the tear improves or goes away? Would be a simple way to see if it infact is the grip.


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## mndeerhunter (Mar 14, 2007)

carlosii, I sent you a PM


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## sierraghost (Aug 14, 2005)

Good news guys, I added one turn tighter on the shelf side of the yoke on my right handed Drenalin, and I just happened to mount the mathews 2 piece quiver, said a quick prayer and, boom. I am punching bullet holes now through the paper, 3 in a row last night, I can say I slept really good last night, knowing I figured out my Mathews. Thanks to everyone who helped.


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

*Yoke*

SG- Glad to hear the good new. It can really cause you to rip your hair out when you cant tune your bow. Most folks dont put much faith in tuning via the yoke system mostly because they dont understand it, but it really does work. Mathews bows in particular are very sesitive to yoke tuning. Anyway, shoot straight.......Wyld


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## 458win (Jun 8, 2007)

*Problem solved!*

Received and installed a "Torqueless" grip and put a whisker biscuit on.... 5 shots later and bullet holes Thanks! Appreciate all who responded!


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## Glenn-bob (Jan 2, 2004)

*Tail left!*



458win said:


> This is my first time attempting to papertune my own bow. My set up is a Drenalin at 66-67lbs, Limb driver rest, 28in draw, Easton 340 Full metal Jackets cut to 28" and fletched with rayzr's with 125gr tips
> 
> I have tried shooting between 6-15ft and its always point right, tail left 1.5" or so. I have moved the rest both ways and neither seem to make a difference whatsoever! At 25yds now it will shoot all shafts touching but whats the deal with the paper tear? Any help or tips are greatly appreciated!!


I had same problem...MONTHS of same problem with X-Force!
Try moving the bar that holds cable to limb...Moved mine away from cam in 1/16" increments and on the second move BANG...bullet holes!


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## WA Elk hunter (Oct 8, 2006)

*Are you shooting a drop away rest?*

If you are I have something for you to look at. John


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

458win said:


> I believe my problem rested in my grip on the bow. A new torqueless "shrewd" grip is on the way and we will see if that helps solve the problem. Thanks to all that have responded! If a new grip doesn't solve the problem I will have it looked at by somebody who knows what there doing Also I do have a D-loop with it tied on opp. sides.


It's pretty easy to tell if your torqueing the bow. Pay attention to your
stabilizer when yoo shoot. If it jumps left or right at the shot,you have
torque. If it stays straight to the target you are good.


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## BamaBoy (Jul 12, 2005)

DaddyPaul said:


> As close as you are I would think that 1 or 1.5 twists in the left side yoke should do it. Are you getting very consistent tears? Does a bare shaft show the same tear? I'll check back tomorrow morning and PM a number if needed. I am on the East Coast and headed to bed in a minute.


I agree ..... put a couple of twists in the left side yoke and give it a try. This will hurt absolutely nothing and may solve your problem. I had to do the same with both of my drenalins. You can always reverse the twists if it does not help.


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