# Formula X and Velos limbs



## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

My new bow. 

It came yesterday so I got to play with it a little last night.

My initial impressions are that I really like this setup. I’m fortunate enough to be able to try lots of different setups and I’ll say that I like it a lot more than my Uukha xpro, my nano TFT, and my trusty MK alpha. 

It was pretty much setup right out of the box but tweaking alignment was about as easy as my TFT with the new dovetail block.

The limbs are great as well. They are probably not quite as smooth as Veracitys or Xtours but close. But they are really fast! I had to move my sight up a bit.

I’ll also say that this is my first time using Formula. The shot was pretty quiet and had some feedback. It wasn’t dead like my TFT.

All in all, this will probably be my last setup for a while, so my wife is thankful. 


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Nice. 

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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Can we see a side profile of the strung bow? I was just wanting to get a look at the limb geometry. Thanks! Looks great! Luckyyyyyyy!


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Are they going to make a 27 inch riser? I have trouble with the 25 inch formulas the sight window isn't large enough for me to see the entire aperture. 

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## DonTYoung (Oct 13, 2014)

I emailed Hoyt to ask that same question and they replied that they have NO plans to make a 27" riser.




Hello Donald,

Thank you for contacting Hoyt. No, we aren't planning to introduce a 27" Formula X riser.


Regards

Hoyt CS Team


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

ryan b. said:


> Can we see a side profile of the strung bow? I was just wanting to get a look at the limb geometry. Thanks! Looks great! Luckyyyyyyy!


Here you go. The picture is a little busy because my basement is full of junk. 










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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Phencer, thank you very much, though I was kind of hoping to see the other limb tips 
Is the curve profile similar to standard geometry (as viewed from side profile) limbs when braced? 
And your basement looks like a museum compared to mine.


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

ryan b. said:


> Phencer, thank you very much, though I was kind of hoping to see the other limb tips
> Is the curve profile similar to standard geometry (as viewed from side profile) limbs when braced?
> And your basement looks like a museum compared to mine.


Yes the curve profile is similar. It’s not like an Uukha super curvy profile. However, the width of the limbs and small tips are similar to Uukhas.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

phencer said:


> View attachment 6644843
> 
> 
> But they are really fast! I had to move my sight up a bit.


That’s not a good indication of increased speed.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

phencer said:


> Yes the curve profile is similar. It’s not like an Uukha super curvy profile. However, the width of the limbs and small tips are similar to Uukhas.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


so they are like w&w limbs?


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

DonTYoung said:


> I emailed Hoyt to ask that same question and they replied that they have NO plans to make a 27" riser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too bad, if anyone else with the same issue I have, not having the sight window large enough on the 25 inch riser, tries one out, please let me know if it works for you.

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## waxyjaywalker (Apr 10, 2013)

teebat said:


> Are they going to make a 27 inch riser? I have trouble with the 25 inch formulas the sight window isn't large enough for me to see the entire aperture.
> 
> Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


Would the problem be more for indoor, when sight is all the way up? Long distance sight elevation shouldn't be a problem eh?


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Love it when a Canadian writes, "eh?" (in spite of my Canadian friends denying that Canadians talk that way) or a Southerner writes "Y'all..." (actually, that one seems weird.)

I'm still mystified about the advantages of Formula bows: I'd like to see a test on an MK Alpha or Beta set up as formula and ILF with the same design and weight limbs and seeing if there's any difference in arrow speed, etc.


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## curisu (Nov 30, 2015)

waxyjaywalker said:


> Would the problem be more for indoor, when sight is all the way up? Long distance sight elevation shouldn't be a problem eh?


i have two 25" ILF risers. with my anchor, the current sight window is *just* tall enough for my 18m pin. i can imagine that a 25" formula riser closing that down by 1-1.5" would definitely be distracting if not blocking the pin outright.


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## martinfuchs (Jan 18, 2017)

curisu said:


> i have two 25" ILF risers. with my anchor, the current sight window is *just* tall enough for my 18m pin. i can imagine that a 25" formula riser closing that down by 1-1.5" would definitely be distracting if not blocking the pin outright.


Yup, I have that problem indoors, which is why I bought a 27” Formula riser. Thinking about going ILF now. 



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## waxyjaywalker (Apr 10, 2013)

Coming to think of it, didn't Brady swap to the ILF Epik right around one of the indoor shoots about 2 years ago? With the poundage he's pulling, he's bound to have had problems with the sight pin blocked by the formula pocket indoors.


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## martinfuchs (Jan 18, 2017)

waxyjaywalker said:


> Coming to think of it, didn't Brady swap to the ILF Epik right around one of the indoor shoots about 2 years ago? With the poundage he's pulling, he's bound to have had problems with the sight pin blocked by the formula pocket indoors.


I actually think Brady only switched to the Epik in the middle of this years outdoor season. I haven’t heard why he did. 


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## ceratops (May 17, 2017)

phencer said:


> My new bow.
> 
> It came yesterday so I got to play with it a little last night.
> 
> ...


I know this may sound snarky, and I truly don't mean it that way... Is the feeling of finding 'the last setup for a while' a familiar one when you get a new bow, or is this one indeed exceptional?

And I echo the previous poster who admired the relative neatness of your basement; I probably couldn't find enough open space in our basement to back up and take a recognizable photo of any sort


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

ceratops said:


> I know this may sound snarky, and I truly don't mean it that way... Is the feeling of finding 'the last setup for a while' a familiar one when you get a new bow, or is this one indeed exceptional?
> 
> And I echo the previous poster who admired the relative neatness of your basement; I probably couldn't find enough open space in our basement to back up and take a recognizable photo of any sort


It’s a little of both.  I’m an early adopter for lots of things, tech stuff included, so I enjoy getting new stuff and tinkering with it. This bow is no exception, however I will say that I enjoy shooting this bow more than any others I’ve had. It probably just comes down to personal preference but I really like how the bow reacts. Is it all just in my head? Maybe. 


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## curisu (Nov 30, 2015)

phencer said:


> It’s a little of both.  I’m an early adopter for lots of things, tech stuff included, so I enjoy getting new stuff and tinkering with it. This bow is no exception, however I will say that I enjoy shooting this bow more than any others I’ve had. It probably just comes down to personal preference but I really like how the bow reacts. Is it all just in my head? Maybe.


Kindred spirit! Enjoy the "last setup for a while! For me, that phrase translates to "last setup until the next interesting idea shows up"

Moving from ~30 to 52lbs. OTF, I've gone through 15 or so arrow sets, 6 risers and at least a dozen set of limbs in the 3 years I've been in freestyle recurve. It's gotten to the point that the folks i shoot with ask "when is the [new thing] showing up?" If nothing else, I've discovered that I prefer lively, stiff, fast, heavy, and long (get yer mind out of the gutter!).

Maybe signing up with a high-level, well-equipped coach, all this could've been figured out without spending thousands of hours (and dollars), but i prefer to figure stuff out on my own.

New risers and and new limbs reinforce the desire to shoot well enough to justify buying this stuff. Backwards logic for most of the senior folks here, but it works for me!

Good luck with the new setup!


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

waxyjaywalker said:


> Would the problem be more for indoor, when sight is all the way up? Long distance sight elevation shouldn't be a problem eh?


Correct, IQs It Outdoors from 30 meters on no problem. It's just indoors at ATM you can only see half the aperture.

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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

teebat said:


> Correct, IQs It Outdoors from 30 meters on no problem. It's just indoors at ATM you can only see half the aperture.
> 
> Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


I hate it when my phone changes my words. The problem is only indoors. Outdoors from 30 m on it works fine

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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Phencer, now that you have had it for a few days.... I am interested in your user input on the limbs. I know you said they are not as smooth as the Xtour ( I am guessing the bamboo one being as no one seemed to buy the foam core ones once the top shooters jumped on the bamboo train) or the veracity’s but faster than them. I am looking for a new set of limbs to use for 900 and 600 rounds which are the game of choice at the retirement community I am moving to. I shoot Barebow but in the last year I have had elbow surgery, a neck fusion, and a lumbar surgery is being considered in the near future. In short I will need to stay 38lbs and under OTF but with as smooth a draw cycle but with excellent speed and inherent accuracy ( I’m not asking for much huh?  Wouldn’t we all like these attributes in one set of limbs). The speed is so I can aim with my point on at least paper at the 60yrd targets. My current Trad Tech limbs at 36lbs otf have a POA of 48yrds.60 yards I am on top of the bale shooting 700 VAP v1’s. I need a bit more speed but can’t go much higher in draw weight or go to under the chin anchor points. Limbs I am considering are the XTour Foam, the Veracity, and possibly this new Hoyt limb. At my age and health this will be my last limb purchase and I want it to do what I need it to and am willing to pay the price if it’s what best fill my needs and wants. I shoot a set of 32lb Hoyt Carbon Ace limbs for indoors that I truly like everything about them. They draw smooth, have good speed, and if I do my part they do their predictably. 

It sounds like you have shot a lot of various limbs so your opinion will be of value to me as I have my old GM and these Carbon Aces in Hoyt limbs and two sets of Trad Tech limbs currently and these have been my only hands on ILF limbs I have ever shot. Your opinion on these new limbs or any limb you have shot you feel would fit my needs and wants would be appreciated. I don’t want to go the obvious route and return to wheels and a hook being as I have not shot that way since the early 2000’s.... I would like to stay with the type archery I started with in the early 60’s: fingers, strings and vertical limbs that bend


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

Jim, I’ll say that since I’ve been using the Velos limbs a bit more, they feel pretty similar to the Xtour bamboo limbs that I have. They also feel similar to the veracitys. Honestly, at my level (intermediate), I doubt I would be able to tell the difference if I just picked up a pair blindly. They are all great limbs and I don’t think you would go wrong with any of them. I will say that all of these limbs feel a lot smoother than the W&W NS foam or NS wood limbs. Personally, I still love this Velos and Formula X setup and will be using it for a long time.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

DonTYoung said:


> I emailed Hoyt to ask that same question and they replied that they have NO plans to make a 27" riser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't sweat it. They said the exact same thing last riser as well.

They are just trying to catch up with the Hoytmania demand for a new product, with the added benefit that some longer loving guys will shrug and buy the 25 because that is all that is available. Then they will release a 27" saying that they had been planning to all along, and all those guys that early adopted will buy that too. 

Standard Hoyt marketting. GT was on here swearing there was no demand last time. 3 months later... Voila!


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## DonTYoung (Oct 13, 2014)

Others have said the same. I can only hope.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Thanks phencer...I am sure as a stringwalker and at my age if you are not feeling much difference I would not either.

How about forgiveness... I read the Xtours would punish form errors and the Veracity forgives more in this aspect ... what is your user experience with the 3 limbs.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There's no such thing as "forgiveness" from an inanimate non-sentient object. It's either setup and tuned correctly, well designed, or it's lacking in either of the qualities.


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## stevebster (Feb 5, 2018)

An archer at my local range just showed up with this combination. I have to admit it looks pretty nice, good matte finish on the riser. The limbs are definitely narrower than average. Seems pretty quiet from a few feet away. Good choice Phencer.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

theminoritydude said:


> That’s not a good indication of increased speed.


Have to agree here, you can get different sight elevations if you set it up differently from the string to the tillers to the overall weight on the fingers, and that isn't even to mention inherent things like the riser deflex and the height of the sight mounting screws relative to the grip.
You need to chrono it to see and account for the variables. Even a slightly better tune can result in better speeds. Anything less than about 5fps is usually accountable in the set up across two very similarly performing bows in my experience.
Hoyt might say they're faster, but that is likely for a particular set up they have tested to "verify" the claim. Until someone gives us numbers for a given and hopefully typical set up, it's just marketing - they must have realised most of their competitors beat them on this.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

martinfuchs said:


> Yup, I have that problem indoors, which is why I bought a 27” Formula riser. Thinking about going ILF now.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe Hoyt should come out with the all new 25" MEGA Riser. It would be a 26" inch riser. Just think of the cool marketing it could have. Might even solve the sight window issue.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

theminoritydude said:


> There's no such thing as "forgiveness" from an inanimate non-sentient object. It's either setup and tuned correctly, well designed, or it's lacking in either of the qualities.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgiving


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Or they can debate with “Easton 101”

“What is a reflex riser and a deflex riser?

Reflex and deflex are terms used to explain the geometry of a riser. A deflex riser bow will have a higher brace height than a reflex riser bow which generally- but by no means always- means it is a more *forgiving* bow.”

Since I started archery in the 60’s equipment has used terms like fast , forgiving, critical, quiet, etc... Recently I have seen this “no such thing as forgiving” comments and just let them be. I have owned both sides of this attribute over 50+ years...


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Drove up to LAS today and handled these new limbs. Compared to the XTour they are much narrower and the tip slims down like my Massie Longbow tips. I went over to the shooting center and the owners daughter was blank bailing the new riser and limb setup. I asked her a few questions about these limbs compared to the boo Xtours and her first attribute was they were smoother and may be slightly faster but she said she had not chrono’d them yet. I stood behind her for a couple rounds and the limbs were not too noisy and seemed quick to recover through the shot. She was shooting 40lb limbs which looked as if they were medium length.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Arcus said:


> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgiving


Bet you these people who wrote that example don’t play tennis.

Imagine you had a .308 and you trained your crosshairs on a target 900 yards away, you flinched when you pulled the trigger, aimpoint runs away but the shot still hits the target.

Is that forgiveness?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I dunno. Maybe we should let lexicographers teach archery, and painting.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Bet Easton shoots bows .... and they use forgiveness as a archery equipment descriptive term

A rifle and a bow are apples and oranges comparisons as the type and number of variables effecting propulsion are too varied to compare. Yes they both sight and propel a projectile but that is where all similarity or comparison end. Bows have far more areas of energy transfer and multi directional forces to cause proplulsion as well as the forward momentum it creates while launching its projectile. Not to mention the projectile itself reactions to propulsion and it’s aerodynamics. All of these transfers of energies and forces and the way the equipment reacts to these processes give numerous opportunities for the attribute of forgiveness to be given in torsional stability, directional stability, or inherent design.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I dunno. Maybe we should let lexicographers teach archery, and painting.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

JimDE said:


> Bet Easton shoots bows .... and they use forgiveness as a archery equipment descriptive term
> 
> A rifle and a bow are apples and oranges comparisons as the type and number of variables effecting propulsion are too varied to compare. Yes they both sight and propel a projectile but that is where all similarity or comparison end. Bows have far more areas of energy transfer and multi directional forces to cause proplulsion as well as the forward momentum it creates while launching its projectile. Not to mention the projectile itself reactions to propulsion and it’s aerodynamics.


No, not entirely disagreeing with the argument about the apples and oranges, but shouldn’t the weapon shoot where it aims?

And if you were exclusively talking about other errors introduced, doesn’t tuning take care of those? 

To say that a certain bow is “forgiving”, gives the impression that it somehow ignores inputs that were not intended. How does a bow tell whether an action was intended or not?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

JimDE said:


> Bet Easton shoots bows .... and they use forgiveness as a archery equipment descriptive term



View attachment 6651911


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

It has been well known for at least the 50+ years I have slung arrows that certain designs or attributes are more forgiving than others. One riser design more forgiving than another, fast vs slow bows, string material reactions, bow lengths, longbow vs recurve vs compound designs, limb composition, arrow composition, etc .... some designs are forgiving some not so much regardless of tuning. A super fast short reflex bow shooting cedar shafts will be less stable or forgiving than a longer deflex design slower bow shooting carbon aluminum arrows. You can tune the heck out of that short fast bow but that longer slower bow will be easier to shoot well in the end

Should a bow put its arrows where it is aimed? Yes but there are design and human interactions that can effect its end success rate.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

To say that a certain bow is “forgiving”, gives the impression that it somehow ignores inputs that were not intended. How does a bow tell whether an action was intended or not?

The way it responds to torsional instability introduced to it and the length of duration it takes to get its energy and force back in line after being set off line by the shooter.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I don’t disagree but that is what tuning does. It takes into account (by repeat applications) a range of errors, and sets up the equipment to generate an output within a certain range with the minimum deviation from the ideal output.

If anything, the individual(s) behind that effort is forgiving.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Using you 308 example .. a long range marksman tunes his cartridges and their loads to the barrel whip so the bullet exits as the muzzle is directly straight. A poor load will cause the bullet to exit when the muzzle is up down left or right during the barrel whip reaction. If the marksman is dead on target but the powder does not burn right the bullet does not exit as the muzzle is straight and misses its mark down range. Archery has far more areas where propulsion energy and directional forces can vary over a much longer shot sequence of time hence the need for forgiveness in designs


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Proper tuning is a essential to accuracy without a doubt just as working up the proper load for a bullet and a barrel but forgiveness in design aids the archer when he is more human than at other times. Just as certain bullets are inherently more accurate than other designs... engineers seek designs that aid the shooters to achieve their goal which is putting a projectile where they intended it to go. They maybe able to design a product that is highly accurate in a shooting machine but few humans can shoot it well at all. I assure you they won’t sell many till they make it shootable by humans... ie forgiving to humans


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## Washimesensei (Dec 28, 2018)

got mine and as a new archer im happy with it... slowly i learn a lot from you guys


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that the term "Forgiveness" was invented as a marketing term many years ago...

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