# Hinge execution- tell me how you do it



## northern rednek (Oct 24, 2008)

I know there's been lots of discussion on it lately but I'd like to hear how individuals do it not arguments why. I'm a 300 50x shooter looking for more x's. I've been a pbt guy for years but I do understand the pulling out of perfect form thing. I recently tried a thumb trigger for 2 months to see if it would help keep me inline but it's not for me. While I had some great shooting with the thumb I found it not to be as consistent as my hinge. I went back to the hinge with pbt and things got better again. I tried the set back pressure then pull with ring and middle finger today with great results but I've been doing pbt for so long it's hard to convince myself there's a better way for me.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

My favorite and the one that produced the best results for me was with a sweet spot 2. I would draw back straight and then roll the release forward slightly so that when I locked the head I could just pull straight back with even hand pressure and it would fire. Similar to what people call true back tension firing only I pulled straight back instead of rotating my arm. I found that way to be better for maintaining correct alignment through the shot. It could also be considered an aggressive form of relaxing the index finger. I have since switched to a button, applying more of a relaxed static release arm method that has proven to be even more consistent. It requires the least amount of motion and muscle tension to execute the shot. But nobody wants to hear about button shooting right?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> My favorite and the one that produced the best results for me was with a sweet spot 2. I would draw back straight and then roll the release forward slightly so that when I locked the head I could just pull straight back with even hand pressure and it would fire. Similar to what people call true back tension firing only I pulled straight back instead of rotating my arm. I found that way to be better for maintaining correct alignment through the shot. It could also be considered an aggressive form of relaxing the index finger. I have since switched to a button, applying more of a relaxed static release arm method that has proven to be even more consistent. It requires the least amount of motion and muscle tension to execute the shot. But nobody wants to hear about button shooting right?


I was, until recently doing it similar to the method cbrunson described, also using a Sweet Spot II. Recently I picked up (3) BT Gold releases and have been experimenting with the relaxing thumb/index while maintaining the hold with BT. I'm also using the clicker. I've had some really good days with this new process but I'm still off and on with it. I know Rome wasn't built in a day so I'm going to stick with it through this season and see what I end up with.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I'm pretty much a "relax the index" type right now, with a "pull and squeeze"(ring and middle finger... Mostly ring) plan B.

I draw, anchor, thumb comes off the peg, and clicks as I do it. Then run that engine till it fires. If taking too long, I may go to plan B.

I have been a mainly PBT, but kind of along the lines of cbrunson in that I would not swing my arm to the side, more of trying to draw straight back, or lowering the elbow.

I have been stuck at 45x for a while... Much of that due to lack of practice, but going to the relax the index, first time out I hit a 50x (but did mess up on one badly for a 299 50x).
It is showing real promise once I get it down pat and a little more used to the technique.


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

2 months in (rookie) and my smoothest firing engine feels like when I take my thumb off the button and start relaxing the index finger combined with leaning back away from the target. Feels like if I don't lean into it I end up using to much muscle of the arm and shoulder to execute.

Does this seem strange?


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

The most common way I fire is in a four step pattern starting the instant I hit full draw;

(1)Push the bow arm forward and flatten the shoulder, holding it there.
(2)Tighten the muscles in the back of my upper draw arm while applying slight pressure on the back wall, further engaging the rhomboids, locking it there.
(3)At that point (if I were thinking about it, I'm not,) I would relax my bow hand into my bow arm, across the shoulders, up the unused muscles in the bow arm and down the forearm into the hand, ( to accomplish this I used to envision a Venetian blind that was shut when I hit full draw, for the relaxation process I used to envision the Venetian blind being opened starting at my grip, up my bow arm, across my shoulders then into my draw arm. I could even hear it making a ripping sound as my muscles relaxed.) 
(4)When the alignment is right and the blind is open I then "let go" in the draw forearm and flattened draw hand to the point that I envision that the release is going to fly out my hand. The bow fires itself. 

When under warmup stress, on uneven footing, shooting extreme angles or in the wind this technique is not the best. In those instances I use a little more aggressive approach rather than passive. If you don't you'll get yourself in big trouble.

That's a rough explanation.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> I was, until recently doing it similar to the method cbrunson described, also using a Sweet Spot II. Recently I picked up (3) BT Gold releases and have been experimenting with the relaxing thumb/index while maintaining the hold with BT. I'm also using the clicker. I've had some really good days with this new process but I'm still off and on with it. I know Rome wasn't built in a day so I'm going to stick with it through this season and see what I end up with.


I have set up that same release to work the same way with identical results. Also used a longhorn and backspin the same way. I simply liked the micro-adjust feature on the sweet spot better. I would choose any micro adjust over the floppy moons. To me the clicker is enough like a button that I might as well just use a button. Either way you choose, you are right, give it some time.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Just a note:
Due to all the negative comments in the other threads, I would like to keep this completely on topic.
Say why your technique works, but do NOT say why another technique does or will not work.
The topic is "Hinge execution, tell me how you do it" I'm putting an emphasis on "YOU". 
Not "his way isn't as good as mine", just how YOU do it.

Please help keep this positive and avoid making me delete or edit a bunch of threads 

Thanx!


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## bseltzer (Nov 20, 2014)

^^^ Thank you!


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## northern rednek (Oct 24, 2008)

Mahly said:


> Just a note:
> Due to all the negative comments in the other threads, I would like to keep this completely on topic.
> Say why your technique works, but do NOT say why another technique does or will not work.
> The topic is "Hinge execution, tell me how you do it" I'm putting an emphasis on "YOU".
> ...


Thanks, that's what I'm really looking for.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I shoot with a click (HT3). I like the click to happen as I release thumb pressure.
I pull gently into the wall using my middle and ring finger. I don't consciously relax the index (although I'm sure it happens) but I do focus on maintaining the hook in my outside fingers rather than squeezing them.

I'm still playing around with engines but this seems like the most relaxing one for me. Downside is it seems to be more sensitive towards DL (and in turn footing/angles) compared with engines that involve more active manipulation such as squeeze and pull or scissors.

-Grant


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello All
For me I remove any thumb peg or barrel.
I like my thumb resting and rapped around the top of my index finger nuckle.

After comiting to the shot . I start BT and apyling thumb and thumb pad side presure to the side of my index finger.By the time the thumb pad presure reaches the tip end of my index finger the shot has been made.

Pessing my index finger in this maner. My index finger now gives way to the hold it had drawing to anchor. [ Later


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I tweeked my draw length so that as I come to anchor I have hit the wall and as I settle into the shot I squeeze NY back tension muscles and add a nice amount of tension to my system locking it in place.

My firing engine:

As my pin settles into the x I very smoothly release my thumb peg and and I give that poundage to my index finger which is left neutral. 
As my thumb barely leaves the peg I begin smoothly pulling into the wall straight back with my ring and middle finger and I continue to smoothly increase this pull until the hinge fires.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Padgett said:


> I tweeked my draw length so that as I come to anchor I have hit the wall and as I settle into the shot I squeeze NY back tension muscles and add a nice amount of tension to my system locking it in place.
> 
> My firing engine:
> 
> ...


Just wondering Padgett, is your draw arm/elbow high or horizontal?


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## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

you might wanna check this thread: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2407647


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I do it, in the typically, traditionally taught, well established and recognized, method.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

I've adopted what I think is the Larry Wise method. I use a Carter Honey Do (with safety). After setting up the shot and coming to full draw, I release the safety and pull with the back, and switch my attention to aiming. I don't do anything with the finger pressure consciously or subconsciously, I just keep it (what feels like) even and pull (conceptually) straight back against the wall with back tension until the hinge goes off.

There may be some relaxation in the hand going on as a side effect of pulling that aids in rotating the release, but I haven't looked at that yet. That's still TBD, but it's a possibility.

The reason that works is it's the only technique that keeps my very highly advanced and uncurable target panic at bay; I don't know why and at this point I don't care a great deal lol. It's also identical to how I shoot with my pull-through releases, so they're basically interchangeable with a single technique for me.

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as Unc Bond, suggested, that thumb peg became more or less a standard as the increase in draw weights on target bows showed up. years ago, hinges didn't have them, I have a few Zeneth hinges that aren't even drilled for a peg and the first Stans that came out never had a peg, as well. typical target bow maximum draw weights were around 45 lbs, years ago, as well. that said, the thumb peg plays an important role in my using a hinge, because due to a wood working accident, I am not capable of form a typical "j-hook" with my release hand index finger, so I rely a bit more on being able to pull with my thumb and middle finger. consequently, I look for hinges that have a hole in them, for my middle finger, such as the Carter "solution " series of hinges. without that hole, it is difficult for me to keep the release in my hand securely.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

I use increasing back side pressure or tension to activate my hinge.

I like to get to fdp as loaded and relaxed as I can be at the same time. Slicer describes it as "closing a chain break" - skeleton loaded with muscles relaxed. I then increase back side pressure from there to break the shot. 
I can also modify it with an index finger pressure change - more relaxed to make the shot break with a slightly lower back side pressure. Lower back side pressure works with "great hold" days or when my shot break gets "sticky". On poorer hold days, I need to increase back side pressure to create a stronger shot break to get back in the middle.

The difficult part is achieving the perfect balance - when I'm on it's money, when I'm not, group sizes grow about 2-3 shaft diameters (XXX's).

The funny thing is is that this method is pretty close to how I shot my hunting rig with a wrist release to get fixed BH to go where I aimed, before I knew about back tension, tp, and AT.


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## krakin (Apr 13, 2014)

My process:

-Push hand down into grip and flex thumb and index finger to get to a nice consistent location on the grip. Make sure bow shoulder is down
-Get the release (4 finger backspin) deep enough into the hand so that the pinky finger can feel itself wrapped around the handle
-Raise the bow to horizontal and draw in a fluid and simple manner with as little unneeded motion as possible
-Move the bow into position for very light contact of the string on the nose and small kisser felt in the corner of the mouth
-While centering scope in the peep an getting a level bubble, start the transition of moving all pent up stress in the arms into the area between the shoulder blades. At this moment, take concious thought to feel the pinky on the release. This helps avoid freezing where at full draw the outside of the hand starts too relaxed to encourage release rotation
-At this point, the relaxing of the stress in the release hand but still feeling the pinky is "there" will bring the release to click
-Start floating the dot and continue the process of transitioning stress from the hand/arm into the back. At this point, all thought is on the float and trying to burn a hole in the X. The "firing engine" has been kicked off to run its course.
-Within 3-8s release lets go and draw arm breaks backwards with a bit of vigour. Around 4s would be perfect. After 6s I'm fighting the dot wanting to drop down out the 10 ring
-I can see the arrow in flight towards he target
-Arrow hits exactly where the dot was when the release fired (within 1/4" at 20y)

All I need to do to be the worlds best archer is to hold still ;-) If only there was a pill for that!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> I was, until recently doing it similar to the method cbrunson described, also using a Sweet Spot II. Recently I picked up (3) BT Gold releases and have been experimenting with the relaxing thumb/index while maintaining the hold with BT. I'm also using the clicker. I've had some really good days with this new process but I'm still off and on with it. I know Rome wasn't built in a day so I'm going to stick with it through this season and see what I end up with.


This morning I shot with a friend (RI Mike) and he let me borrow his Stan Jet Black 3 finger. As I posted before I've been shooting the BT Gold and like the way it rotates effortlessly. My first few shots with the Stan were not impressive but I had to go through a trial and error adjustment before I got it to my liking. Once I got the speed close I experimented using the same firing engine I've been working on (relaxing thumb & index while keeping good dynamic tension) but found the release would stop rotating before it would fire. After a while I started getting the hang of the Stan. When I went back to the BT Gold I found that I no longer preferred the easy rotation so I decided to do more work with the Stan.

After much trial and error, I found that when I gripped the Stan deeply, the relaxed thumb and fingers firing engine worked really well, even better than with the BT Gold's. The only issue I had with the BT Gold was the sweep, the Stan has a much straighter finger sweep which I prefer. I like this release so much that I just bought 2 of them here in the classifieds today.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

I use a Whalens Hooker 2 finger. Not really a hinge, but a hook. Draw with index finger and thumb peg. Use lots of back to draw and never disengage. At full draw, release the thumb peg, relax my release hand and forearm as much as possible, let the hook center on my index finger, and then lay my middle finger on second finger position of the release. While aiming, let the float settle and then increase back tension with the muscles around the inside of my shoulder blade (rhomboid and a little lower). The holding weight distribution of the release begins to shift from my index finger to both my index and middle finger. This redistribution of weight creates rotation and the release fires when its ready. If I don't get a nice follow through with my release hand over my back shoulder, then I know that I got lazy on my back tension and rotation. I am very deliberate throughout the process.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

EPLC said:


> This morning I shot with a friend (RI Mike) and he let me borrow his Stan Jet Black 3 finger. As I posted before I've been shooting the BT Gold and like the way it rotates effortlessly. My first few shots with the Stan were not impressive but I had to go through a trial and error adjustment before I got it to my liking. Once I got the speed close I experimented using the same firing engine I've been working on (relaxing thumb & index while keeping good dynamic tension) but found the release would stop rotating before it would fire. After a while I started getting the hang of the Stan. When I went back to the BT Gold I found that I no longer preferred the easy rotation so I decided to do more work with the Stan.
> 
> After much trial and error, I found that when I gripped the Stan deeply, the relaxed thumb and fingers firing engine worked really well, even better than with the BT Gold's. The only issue I had with the BT Gold was the sweep, the Stan has a much straighter finger sweep which I prefer. I like this release so much that I just bought 2 of them here in the classifieds today.


You ever tried an HT3? I've played with a few different Stan releases and although I love their heads, I just can't seem to get comfortable with how skinny their handles are. However I've been playing with an HT3 the last few days and boy do I like how it fits.
Really seems made for a firing engine that uses a deep hook on the outside fingers.

-Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

grantmac said:


> You ever tried an HT3? I've played with a few different Stan releases and although I love their heads, I just can't seem to get comfortable with how skinny their handles are. However I've been playing with an HT3 the last few days and boy do I like how it fits.
> Really seems made for a firing engine that uses a deep hook on the outside fingers.
> 
> -Grant


Yes, I shot one just recently and it's a nice release. That said I like a release with less sweep in the fingers and I'm not large framed so the Stan's fit me well.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> The most common way I fire is in a four step pattern starting the instant I hit full draw;
> 
> (1)Push the bow arm forward and flatten the shoulder, holding it there.
> (2)Tighten the muscles in the back of my upper draw arm while applying slight pressure on the back wall, further engaging the rhomboids, locking it there.
> ...


 what you just described is pretty much typical back tension as a release execution.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I just read lazarus post again where he mentioned the venetian blind thing and I see this time what he was talking about, To me what lazarus is referring to is a soft hand that allows things to happen instead of a hard hand or rigid hand. I agree with him that when you do this the shot just seems to happen without you mentally making things happen and that this is key.

I have found myself giving my hand permission to do its thing here in the last year or so and it has helped me so much, in the beginning I was so scared of my hand moving at all I froze it up but as I became a solid hinge shooter I learned to give it permission to do its thing and this is when my hinge shooting took off.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> what you just described is pretty much typical back tension as a release execution.


Same here... I think Laz is with us over here on The Dark Side of PBT....

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Padgett said:


> I just read lazarus post again where he mentioned the venetian blind thing and I see this time what he was talking about, To me what lazarus is referring to is a soft hand that allows things to happen instead of a hard hand or rigid hand. I agree with him that when you do this the shot just seems to happen without you mentally making things happen and that this is key.
> 
> I have found myself giving my hand permission to do its thing here in the last year or so and it has helped me so much, in the beginning I was so scared of my hand moving at all I froze it up but as I became a solid hinge shooter I learned to give it permission to do its thing and this is when my hinge shooting took off.


That is correct. Sometimes in my haste I'm not very explanatory. That Venetian blind idea is one of the most helpful word pictures I've developed in my shooting style. I'm serious, when I first started it I could actually hear the blind ripping up when I did it. :teeth:

Silly things we do.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello All
I find every type release I have . And that would be a bunch.
Releases has been my 2nd hobby to shooting a bow. 

Each release has there own style way of performing. For the style way a archer chooses to use and perform his shot. 

I will lay the release up I don't like my performance.
To later retry and find the release just needed to be held and used in a different manner way.

Example have a 3 finger Carter Only using no. 4 dot bar with using number 5 dot angle. Very smooth and a great release by the way.
For me to be satisfied with my performance with this release.
Was to remove the thumb peg.

Light poundage bow . Draw to anchor with thumb down . Loaded up on index finger with other 2 finger some what open hanging on.

At anchor I locate the center of the target and set my release arm back shoulder muscles. When target movement settles.
I commit to the shot.

At this time my thumb has now touched the side of my index finger with a lot of pressure as I close the venetian blinds. As my elbow becomes straighter back. And release arm shoulder starts back at the time of the shot execution.

For a heaver bow. My thumb and index finger now has the most draw weight.
shot execution same as above. I now close the venetian blinds on my last 2 fingers.

As I have said before I'm not very fond of a thumb peg and its telegraphing..
After saying that some solid hook releases require one.
So I used a very small thumb peg. Where as I can still have some steady feel on my thumb to my index finger.
I have tried removing my thumb from my thumb peg. And that seemed to give me a looseness feeling in my anchor. Where as I had to reset my anchor.[ Later


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## bgviii (Feb 16, 2010)

I have been shooting a hinge for over 30 years. 300 59x is my best score but that was a few years back. I regularly shot around 55x on average but lots of 57s and 58s but never really put in the dedication to push to 60x. I fired my hinge at that time with no click. I would start with solid BT and then squeeze a lightly set hinge very slowly until fire. After a while I slowly developed anticipation for when this shot would go off and developed a slight freezing issue. This is annoying! Getting a little bob close to when I know its going off...A couple of years ago, I injured my right elbow (I'm right handed) and cannot bend it enough to touch my neck. After struggling with shooting and seeing my scores really drop I decided last year to go to left handed...I'm now back to a 50x 300 avg. I even hit a 53 the other night!...Here's the kicker..in teaching my body to let the shot happen and to develop the best shot and hold I can repeat, I HAVE to use a pure BT shot. I've tried and tried my old way and I bob and throw arrows left and right. I was always a believer that you had to help the release a little to maintain timing and shoot when the shot looked the best or as near as possible. That gave me calm even with the freezing which I was able to manage. I won't say overcome but manage. No way with left handed. I have to go through a very set sequence of steps that includes locking into the anchor and continuing to increase the tension throughout the shot. As I refine my aim, I remind myself to increase tension and then let it ride into only aiming. The shots are incredibly pure, however, repeating this exactly enough to get back close to 60x is something I'm not sure will happen. The speed of the shot varies and while it's a nice surprise release, you are not always at the steadiest when it goes. Plenty of work left on that..I do believe that a hinge can be fired using nothing but back tension. As it is basically a lever it is really only a matter of where on the lever you are putting pressure. As 5 fingered humans we have the luxury of being able to complete "complex" tasks of changing the point of pressure with our opposable thumbs and fingers..


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

OK you guys, here's another long term hinge user, that never shot 60 x's, and realizes rotational back tension can be done and it works.....


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

> I would start with solid BT and then squeeze a lightly set hinge very slowly until fire. After a while I slowly developed anticipation for when this shot would go off and developed a slight freezing issue. This is annoying! Getting a little bob close to when I know its going off...


Nice!... I'm no where near at that shooting level, but I developed this *exact* problem myself with my hinges when using a manipulation technique. This gives me hope that it's a simple suitability issue for certain shooters when using those particular firing engines. And, reinforces for me that it's *not a fault of those techniques* themselves in any way, shape or form. That's important for me to know - that it's the *shooter *and not the technique chosen. We can simply try another one until we find one that's suitable for us.....

And, it also so happens, I've so far successfully treated my case the same way by adopting PBT. Sonny's HB&S (Haul Back and Shoot) is what I use and am working on cleaning up my execution of these days...

So much for the "myth" argument. Here's our (at least anecdotal) evidence that it exists and works!

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

bgviii said:


> I have been shooting a hinge for over 30 years. 300 59x is my best score but that was a few years back. I regularly shot around 55x on average but lots of 57s and 58s but never really put in the dedication to push to 60x. I fired my hinge at that time with no click. I would start with solid BT and then squeeze a lightly set hinge very slowly until fire. After a while I slowly developed anticipation for when this shot would go off and developed a slight freezing issue. This is annoying! Getting a little bob close to when I know its going off...A couple of years ago, I injured my right elbow (I'm right handed) and cannot bend it enough to touch my neck. After struggling with shooting and seeing my scores really drop I decided last year to go to left handed...I'm now back to a 50x 300 avg. I even hit a 53 the other night!...Here's the kicker..in teaching my body to let the shot happen and to develop the best shot and hold I can repeat, I HAVE to use a pure BT shot. I've tried and tried my old way and I bob and throw arrows left and right. I was always a believer that you had to help the release a little to maintain timing and shoot when the shot looked the best or as near as possible. That gave me calm even with the freezing which I was able to manage. I won't say overcome but manage. No way with left handed. I have to go through a very set sequence of steps that includes locking into the anchor and continuing to increase the tension throughout the shot. As I refine my aim, I remind myself to increase tension and then let it ride into only aiming. The shots are incredibly pure, however, repeating this exactly enough to get back close to 60x is something I'm not sure will happen. The speed of the shot varies and while it's a nice surprise release, you are not always at the steadiest when it goes. Plenty of work left on that..I do believe that a hinge can be fired using nothing but back tension. As it is basically a lever it is really only a matter of where on the lever you are putting pressure. As 5 fingered humans we have the luxury of being able to complete "complex" tasks of changing the point of pressure with our opposable thumbs and fingers..


As someone that has also successfully made the switch to LH I'm happy for you. I understand the subtle differences as well. When I switched over my left hand was not very intelligent and as a result my release was very static. I was pretty successful quickly because of this "dumb" left hand but within a year or so my scores started to drop as my left hand became smarter. Now, seven or so years later I've had to follow a different path since the internal fight wasn't working out. I was still trying to do the static hand thing because I thought it was "THE" way and was getting nowhere because my hand was involved in spite of me. Some days I would shoot great and others not so much... the not so much days were gaining ground. Frequenting this forum has provided me a direction that changed my way of thinking about my shot and my perspective on training, aiming and just about every preconceived notion I had coming in. Without going into much detail I've basically changed everything, including my shot engine. Instead of fighting the hand involvement, I now welcome it. I'm shooting some of the best shots of my life, and I was half way decent starting this journey. One of my training routines is shooting one arrow at one spot of a three spot or five spot for a third or a fifth of a game. This morning was 12 arrows at a 5 spot... and yes I missed one for a 11X 60.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am one of the people that was instrumental in starting hopefully this final battle with guys _who insist you shouldn't "cheat the hinge"_and I am glad that I did and I can't control the fact that there are some guys that have taken the discussions in a direction that I didn't want them to go.

Many of us shoot with back tension and it is a nice way to get rid of the arrow and shoot really nice scores or groups but we shoot much much much better with other methods that only use back tension as a part of our execution. 

Please listen to Mahly and the rest of us and learn to present your knowledge as positive stuff that can be used to enjoy shooting and we will do the same and then guys can train with the methods and reach their happy place on their own in their back yard just like the rest of us. 

I just saw Daniel Boons thread from 2012 where he stepped up and did this same thing that we are doing now and I am sure that it had been done before, back in 2012 I was still in the learning phase and I didn't even realize how awesome and strong he was to start that thread but after reading his posts there is a reason he is so well thought of around here on archery talk.


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## bgviii (Feb 16, 2010)

I think that is a great training idea! I will give it a try. I believe this is similar to the practice I've been doing with a blank bale. I shoot one arrow at a blank bale to get the feel of my pure BT shot. Maybe even 2 shots..Then I immediately shoot at a bullseye trying to replicate that same feel. This has helped me commit to the shot completely on a target. I can't do it every time and if I start feeling out of rhythm in practice while shooting a score, I stop and regain the feel of the pure BT shot. Confidence and commitment really goes a long way!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I haven't done it in a while but I have a paper plate session that I do and it really is a fun little shooting session, I don't like blank baling and I do my paper plate session instead. I am sending it in a pm.


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## cds913 (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'm having trouble "finding it" - the rhomboids and stuff are just words,I can't really discriminate which muscles are pulling...Got a good shooter who's been coaching but I suspect he's telling me to do more hand manipulation than I ought'a be doing.

In addition I have a bad RH ring finger so not all releases work well for me. Several shops around here carry a limited variety of hinge releases. I've tried a few and bought a MoreX 2 and a longhorn 4 and another longhorn off ebay (if it'd ever get delivered) that I plan on cutting off the last finger because the "hook" at the end bunches my fingers up.

I'd planned on blank baling all winter. Took the sight off my PSE brute but the "valley" is so small with that bow I had a hard time consistently executing BT at all....I put a small felt bag over the sight on my Forge Surgeon and did much better but then I got roped in to shooting leagues. Subbing for a guy who fell from a treestand... I can't just work on form when score matters. Out came my trigger release/off came the bag over the sight so I don't embarrass myself.

But I just can't really get it...well,I had a couple days when it felt really good. Then an evening shooting for score and "it" disappeared.

Tried a thumb release yesterday and that felt good but it also didn't feel like true BT - not the way I was instructed to use it.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

bgviii said:


> I think that is a great training idea! I will give it a try. I believe this is similar to the practice I've been doing with a blank bale. I shoot one arrow at a blank bale to get the feel of my pure BT shot. Maybe even 2 shots..Then I immediately shoot at a bullseye trying to replicate that same feel. This has helped me commit to the shot completely on a target. I can't do it every time and if I start feeling out of rhythm in practice while shooting a score, I stop and regain the feel of the pure BT shot. Confidence and commitment really goes a long way!


Yes, I'm really liking this little drill of mine. I no longer shoot for score in practice as I want to focus on my process but the goal of shooting one spot clean puts just enough pressure on me to prevent me from just flinging arrows. I don't do it every day and when I do it's after a good warm up period... and it's fun as well. Last night I shot for over 3 hours and was pounding X's at a pretty good rate.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cds913 said:


> Thanks guys. I'm having trouble "finding it" - the rhomboids and stuff are just words,I can't really discriminate which muscles are pulling...Got a good shooter who's been coaching but I suspect he's telling me to do more hand manipulation than I ought'a be doing.
> 
> In addition I have a bad RH ring finger so not all releases work well for me. Several shops around here carry a limited variety of hinge releases. I've tried a few and bought a MoreX 2 and a longhorn 4 and another longhorn off ebay (if it'd ever get delivered) that I plan on cutting off the last finger because the "hook" at the end bunches my fingers up.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about using a little hand manipulation. While you can go the straight BT route, many of today's top shooters have gone away from that method. I personally struggled with the muscle thing as well... move what, where, huh?


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

I cannot tell you how I do it very well, but here is a slow-motion video of me shooting a hinge. I've shot one almost exclusively since 1998 (including hunting). If I were to put it in words, I use my elbow to engage my back and get it right on the edge of going off (without a clicker), and then I just aim and it goes off (obviously there is more motion, but I cannot feel it at that point).

http://youtu.be/njBneBuWles


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

cds913, it is easy to feel the muscles that are all included in the back tension phrase that you will hear anytime hinge shooting is mentioned. You can do is easily by standing up and just getting into shooting position, then try and move your rear arm backwards and you will feel the back side of your shoulder which is your deltoids and then your muscles under your shoulder blade that also stick out from your shoulder blade and lay on top of your back strap on that side. They are all going to tighten up nice and solid. These are the muscles that allow you to draw a bow and then when you come to full draw they become very firm and hold your body in that full draw position. By increasing that back tension by squeezing those muscles you can increase the pressure against the wall and you can also create rotation in your release if you choose to do so.

Now come to full draw and then just settle in and pull straight back into the wall with your release and you are going to feel a very similar sensation that uses the same muscles but it is different because you will feel a sensation in the back of your arm in the tricep area and it isn't your tricep mucsle flexing but it is a sensation of pressure as you pull, you will also feel the deltoid muscles on the back side of the shoulder tightening up but the muscles on the outer edge of your shoulder blade will be doing something but not as much as the other effort

The one thing that you do not want to do when you are drawing the bow or applying back tension to your wall is to flex your bicep mucsle, this causes a bunch of weird draw cycles and it causes your efforts to fire the release to have trouble.

I personally shoot much stronger when I simply pull straight back into the wall, for me this creates back tension really nicely and it does so straight behind the arrow so I don't have any funny aiming issues so don't over think it and in time you will be able to do it both ways and pick the one that works best for you.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> As someone that has also successfully made the switch to LH I'm happy for you. I understand the subtle differences as well. When I switched over my left hand was not very intelligent and as a result my release was very static. I was pretty successful quickly because of this "dumb" left hand but within a year or so my scores started to drop as my left hand became smarter. Now, seven or so years later I've had to follow a different path since the internal fight wasn't working out. I was still trying to do the static hand thing because I thought it was "THE" way and was getting nowhere because my hand was involved in spite of me. Some days I would shoot great and others not so much... the not so much days were gaining ground. Frequenting this forum has provided me a direction that changed my way of thinking about my shot and my perspective on training, aiming and just about every preconceived notion I had coming in. Without going into much detail I've basically changed everything, including my shot engine. Instead of fighting the hand involvement, I now welcome it. I'm shooting some of the best shots of my life, and I was half way decent starting this journey. One of my training routines is shooting one arrow at one spot of a three spot or five spot for a third or a fifth of a game. This morning was 12 arrows at a 5 spot... and yes I missed one for a 11X 60.


Can't remember how long I've been doing it, but "one arrow shots" sure paved the way for better everything. 

unclejane, my "haul back and shoot"  is a bit more than that. I just want all thinking done before I shoot and then I can haul back and shoot. Padgett has his "firing engines" and I guess I've got something of that. When I use a thumb release I can use just the right side of my back to fire and I can rip shot this way like you've never seen before so control is parmount. I can use both sides of my back to fire. I can just go into a easy, smooth draw to fire or pull quick really unload a shot so control is paramount. Padgett set me up with using two fingers for the thumb release and it works. Right hand busted years back and it doesn't want to cooperate all that well with two fingers, but if I just let the ring finger touch I'm good.


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

This is how Stanislawski's manual explains hinge execution.
https://www.ishootastan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Technical-guide-Archery-release-aids-STAN-2011.png
Activating the Release by Relaxing Through the Shot


Whether you are using a triggerless Stan or one of our models that are trigger activated, the 
technique is the same with only minor adjustments. The art of activating the release is pretty 
basic. Essentially what should happen is as you pull against the bow and build dynamic tension 
between you and the bow, you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften 
against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure 
causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise re-
lease. If you are shooting a Thumb button the you will start with a heavier than normal trigger 
tension. Wrap your thumb or finger over the trigger and apply a tiny amount of pressure to it. 
As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the 
button or trigger. This slight transfer of pressure as you relax your hand through the shot will 
cause a nice smooth surprise release. Ultimately you are striving for a surprise release. You do 
not want to be concerned when it is going to fire.


A perfect shot would seem something like this: You draw the bow and squeeze into the stops. 
You align the peep and scope and bring the target into view. You will give it a half a beat to 
begin its normal motion in the center of the target (depending on experience this will be a little 
wobbly or very steady. Practice and conditioning will improve your hold over time.) Your sight 
is as steady as it ever gets and you commit to the shot. Allow your Dynamic tension to build on 
your release fingers through pulling into the stops. The tip of your elbow is in perfect line with 
the dot in your scope and it is pulling straight away. To activate the shot your index finger sof-
tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-
tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released. You hold the form for about 3 
beats for follow through and you are ready to reset. You have just shot a perfect arrow. You 
can adjust the speed of your release to get the proper feel and timing.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> unclejane, my "haul back and shoot"  is a bit more than that. I just want all thinking done before I shoot and then I can haul back and shoot. Padgett has his "firing engines" and I guess I've got something of that.


Yeah, didnt mean to oversimplify it. OTOH, you and Shawn are, after all, in the set of archery Masters of the Universe, you guys can do with 2 fingers what requires 3 or more for me, so this makes me even more proud to sport "HB&S" as my shot engine... 

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

rn3 said:


> This is how Stanislawski's manual explains hinge execution.
> https://www.ishootastan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Technical-guide-Archery-release-aids-STAN-2011.png
> Activating the Release by Relaxing Through the Shot
> 
> ...


Yes, we beat this one to death a short while back. I'll bet the farm George Ryals IV was the author of the instruction sheet.


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## hulandshark (Dec 21, 2011)

I have done some research this summer while i shot at some international shoots this year one of the most interesting thing i learned is that a hinge is very difficult to shoot properly if you are holding your release parallel with your string. the way your shoulders and hand streatch will not rotate your release if you hold it 45 degrees or so ive found its much easier to shoot. i'm not saying thats the perfect way to shoot it but its definently worth a try


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I would think the method of firing the hinge would be a large factor.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

hulandshark said:


> I have done some research this summer while i shot at some international shoots this year one of the most interesting thing i learned is that a hinge is very difficult to shoot properly if you are holding your release parallel with your string. the way your shoulders and hand streatch will not rotate your release if you hold it 45 degrees or so ive found its much easier to shoot. i'm not saying thats the perfect way to shoot it but its definently worth a try


 yes, it's pretty much established, as a "rule", that the closer to horizontal you hold your hinge at anchor, the more efficiently rotation is transferred to the hinge. the exception to that rule, is when you manipulate by wrist of finger pressures, then the "rule" flies out the window, and you can hold the release just about any way you want. that may be part of the trend to abandon rotational back tension for the more popular methods of today. perceived difficulty in learning the BT rotation and the lesser need for paying attention to specific form details, may have brought about these alternative methods.
the typical 40 to 45 degree cant, is about maximum in relation to ease of transferring rotation without working so hard, that it's tiring.
I see a lot of people laying their hinge almost vertically against their face, and then when you talk to them, they complain that rotational back tension is just too hard to accomplish.


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## bowanalee (Feb 24, 2007)

My shot engine with a carter evolution is still evolving. Its not a hinge but it should be similar ? 
Best I can describe it is, draw to wall, bow arm out and shoulder down. Relax, pin on target, safety off, steady up, concentrate on spot and slowly expand chest.
On uneven ground, expanding gets tough for me. And sometimes I'm not steady enough so I'll let down and go through everything until I get the surprise explosion. 
Recently, after watching the Lancaster shoot on line. I've tried something different. If I can't get it to fire, I'll pull a Reo by slightly making a fist. 
I'm doing it consciously though. Hopefully with more practice it'll work better. If not I'll loose it ? ...I appreciate the input from you guys. Some of it will definitely be useful.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Please step up and give your method of choice and the little things that you do to make it work for you and if you are really confident in its ability to produce good shooting have some confidence to promote those good characteristics and also the little things that you struggle to overcome with it. These are the things that allow us to present each and every one of the methods in a positive way and lead people into good shooting.

It is the little things from pressures in muscles and fingers and phrases that you use when thinking about the shot that turn a method to fire a hinge into your personal method that gives you awesome shooting. None of the methods are a ticket to awesome shooting, they simply get rid of the arrow. What creates awesome shooting is being able to execute a method very smoothly over and over and over, it is the little things that allow a guy to do it smoothly that we can and need to offer.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Mahly said:


> Just a note:
> Due to all the negative comments in the other threads, I would like to keep this completely on topic.
> Say why your technique works, but do NOT say why another technique does or will not work.
> The topic is "Hinge execution, tell me how you do it" I'm putting an emphasis on "YOU".
> ...


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2413613


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Well this topic has always been a hot one, even back in the beginning of AT there was lots of discussion... and we had the benefit of some of the top shooters in the world expression their views on these matters. Well the top pros are pretty scarce in their postings now but literally all of their stuff is still with us... Here's an interesting post by Eric Griggs from 2004.



EGriggs said:


> I'll elaborate a little on what Dan is talking about here. To start with let me say that I strongly recommend setting a triggerless bt release with a good bit of travel. No disrespect to anyone who is successful with a trigerless bt release and doesn't shoot this way, but I would say that virtually everyone at the top who is using a pure bt release is shooting it with travel. And...If your shooting it with travel you can not fire the release off back tension alone. You have to maintain back tension and that's important, but moving your hand and fingers is what makes that thing fire. The travel is important because it makes you stay active in the shot. You always keep pulling regardless of what the sight is doing. With a good bit of travel anticipation becomes a non-factor as well. For everyone who is shooting there release on the edge or have shot this in the past ask yourself this question. How many times have you been tentative with your release or had a hard time firing it in a pressure situation? Unless your lying to yourself this has happened to everyone who has shot a triggerless bt release set up light or with the clicker. Not to say it can't happen when you set them up with travel, but you know that you have to get after the release to make it fire so it forces you to be aggressive. I'll give you a great example of this. Nathan Brooks was in the shoot off in Vegas last year and let down after holding for a really long time. He got rid of the release in his hand and got a different one. After the fact I asked him what the deal was and he said he switched to a HEAVIER release. I was surprised at first, but when he explained it to me it made perfect sense. He was having problems getting it to fire and he knew once he switched to something with even more travel that it would force him to be aggressive to get the release to fire. I know that this isn't going to work for everyone, but the topic came up so I figured I would add my thoughts.
> 
> Eric


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

for what it's worth, back in '75 or '76, a year or so after I learned to shoot with back tension as a firing engine, the guy that taught me, said essentially the same things, word for word, about setting up a hinge. one day as we were discussing the subject of developing the necessity amount of rotation with rhomboid contraction, he said to set the release cold enough that you almost run out of swing, before it goes off. what that does is force you to run an execution that is far enough away from instantaneous break, that you have to develop some consistency in your rotational contraction, to produce the break of the shot and you have to keep pulling no matter what the sight is doing, teaching you to trust the float. that "trust the float' was a big issue back then, as well, just about the same as it is now.
as I've said before,....." in reference to the shot execution, not much has changed in all this time".


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> for what it's worth, back in '75 or '76, a year or so after I learned to shoot with back tension as a firing engine, the guy that taught me, said essentially the same things, word for word, about setting up a hinge... ...as I've said before,....." in reference to the shot execution, not much has changed in all this time".


Are you saying we are in agreement on this portion of Mr. Griggs post or are you cherry picking? 

"...but I would say that virtually everyone at the top who is using a pure bt release is shooting it with travel. And... If you’re shooting it with travel you cannot fire the release off back tension alone. You have to maintain back tension and that's important, but moving your hand and fingers is what makes that thing fire.... ~ Eric Griggs, 2004


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I guess I have no idea what you mean by "cherry picking". 
whether we are in agreement about something or not, makes absolutely no difference to me, EPLC. when I post a comment, i'm not looking for approval or agreement, i'm simply posting what I know to be the true facts, as well as I can relate them. if you interpret them as something else, I cannot control how you think or read. 
I don't mean this post an any derogatory way, towards anyone at all. as I said,.... I post what I think, or know are the true facts.... and I know quite a bit about the subject.
"travel" is a somewhat arbitrary word. there has to be some travel or the hinge won't work at all. the amount of travel is conditional to how well, rotation is developed, no matter which process you use. 
I will go on record, saying, and essentially agreeing with Mr. Griggs, that it is no good, to have the hinge set up so hot, that the least amount of rotation fires it. it produces anxiety in the shot process, that leads to a timid execution, and confidence can never be developed, if your execution remains timid. 
that is why it is best to set the hinge deep, as you progress through your fundamental stages of learning to use back tension as a firing engine. once you have developed a reliable execution and gained some confidence in it, you can then adjust the engagement to a more easily produced rotation. 
the thing is, that most people who attempt to learn this method, don't learn these details. they then have problems and dispose of the entire process. 
as I've said before, the real issue about learning the process, is not necessarily how you as a student are able to do it, but more how well it is taught by the teacher. poor teaching only reflects as poor performance by the student and that usually ends up as the student abandoning the process, saying something like, "well, the method is just not for me.... it's all about personal choice anyways and I just don't choose to do it that way". 
we all learned to walk, talk, ride a bike, skip a rope, and do pull-ups, and play "tug-of-war". there's nothing more complicated or difficult about it, than any of these activities. it's all in how it's taught. if it is taught correctly, the time it is/was taught, makes absolutely no difference, because it is the same today, as it was 40 years ago. hence my saying that "in all these years, not much has changed concerning these methods"..... people just don't realize this.
take it any way you want.
now whether that is "cherry picking" or not, I have no clue, and I couldn't care less, because what is said, is simply the true fact of the matter, as I see it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as far as travel, my own releases are set up with about 6 thousandths engagement, that seems to be the amount that is entirely safe from pre-fires ad still easy to get off, with my rotation. everybody is of course different here, and that, is one area where you need to know a little about the process, to actually become proficient with it. 
as I've said before, archery is sport, like no other, you have to have a little intrinsic knowledge about the nature of the process, in order to do the process.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello All
Guys has any one noticed there release holding angle after release has been pre set for shot and anchor.
And if that angle is changed some what . The release fires harder or faster or smoother.

Other words if your holding the release horizontal for your type execution.
And then you change the angle to more of a up angle.

Or say your type release angle hold at anchor. Is sorta on a 45 deg up angle. 

Have you noticed any variation of holding angle of your release at anchor. Changing the speed of the execution of your release. After the release has been preset. Thanks [ Later


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Are you saying we are in agreement on this portion of Mr. Griggs post or are you cherry picking?
> 
> "...but I would say that virtually everyone at the top who is using a pure bt release is shooting it with travel. And... If you’re shooting it with travel you cannot fire the release off back tension alone. You have to maintain back tension and that's important, but moving your hand and fingers is what makes that thing fire.... ~ Eric Griggs, 2004


Just correcting - January 2012.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Here's how I do it. One shot is finger diddling and two others are static hand.

http://youtu.be/l1cEPhJpii8


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

As far as hinge speed I see things totally backwards than most people but in the end I really think I end up in the same spot that e griggs was talking about, For me and my personal shooting a really slow hinge hurt me really bad and once I taught myself the Hinge Setup Routine I really took off because I was able to set up my hinge really fast and still draw it with all fingers and this allowed me do a very small amount of effort and the arrow was gone. I became a very good 60x level shooter doing it this way and then as I progressed I have learned to slow it down a little bit so that I have a nice amount of rotation before it fires.

Having that nice amount of rotation before it fires does many good positive things such as it:

1. makes you feel totally safe when drawing the bow that it isn't going to go off.

2. your brain knows that there is some slack in the speed so it is going to take a nice amount of rotation for it to fire so don't freak out when it starts happening.

3. the nice amount of rotation allows you to start something moving and continuing that motion till it fires. Motion is good.

4. it allowed me to shoot early in my shot window which is where my good float was.

So I end up with a hinge that is set up very similar to what they are mentioning but I get there starting out fast, yes I loose some arrows when they explode on the wall if I misfire over the years but so what I just bought some more. Yes I have felt that sensation of standing there frozen not being able to fire a really fast set hinge, so what. it is just a learning phase and as long as you use the lesson learned that is presented to you then it was worth experiencing. In the end I became a 60x shooter who can win many tournaments with a fast hinge and now I am even better and loving every moment.

My solution to this topic has been and for the time being will remain that you need two hinges one that is set to your competition speed that you feel like is your perfect speed at that time and a hinge that is set slower. You need to train with the slow hinge early in warm ups and during the training sessions so that you are developing a nice amount of rotation in your firing engine. Then when you switch over to your competition hinge that is set up perfect it will fire easily within your built in rotation.

I so wish that someone would have told me this trick back when I first started because I set all of my hinges up the same way and even spent hours trying to make them feel like the exact same amount of rotation was there. This is a huge mistake because then it causes a guy to compare a brand to another brand, the fact is they are all hinges and they are all equally accurate. You can choose to make one your training hinge and one of them your competition hinge and actually get something out of them instead of picking one up and hoping that the hinge produces a 60x round.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

When you say "rotation"......what's rotating?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I didn't want that post to be about any one method so I just used the phrase rotating instead of a specific yielding or back tension or squeeze and pull.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am really big on hinge speed and I work on my personal hinge speed a lot because I really believe that many or most hinge shooters have a hinge that is hurting their shooting instead of helping their shooting.

Of course in the beginning the speed of my hinges made huge differences in my shooting such as not being able to fire it at all or misfires or just sucky shooting in general and now that I am a solid hinge shooter I can pick up basically any hinge set at any speed and shoot it good enough to win with it. The biggest difference in me right now compared to the shooter that I used to be is that my aiming is completely disconnected from my firing engine so my pin is just floating on the spot and if I am shooting a fast hinge it fires right after I release the peg and if I am shooting a slow hinge I generate some steady rotation until it fires later in my shot window. Back when I was a new hinge shooter I was still connected to my aiming so all of my efforts to rotate the hinge with any method affected my float and then I would pause and have to start up again and things just went from bad to worse. For this reason I wanted a fast hinge that I couldn't feel rotating and I basically stood there waiting for it to accidentally fire.

That is why these conversations are so important to new shooters to hear because it tells them that there is a learning curve and most of us suffered but it gives them direction and hope that their transition will be a smoother one than ours. just knowing that it is ok to set a couple hinges up one slow and one faster is such a simple thing that most people never think of. Knowing that feeling that rotation isn't a bad thing, so many guys think that you shouldn't feel anything because it is creep. Just like in their hunting rifle trigger they think there should be no creep in their hinge. Well there should be creep in the hinge and you have to learn to generate very smooth efforts to rotate through that creep and allow it to fire.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

JV NC said:


> When you say "rotation"......what's rotating?


 JV, with a hinge, they need to rotate in relation to the string's static position and line of flight of the arrow, in order to fire. what this rotation does, is allow the moon, which is integral with the body of the release, supporting the hook that is on the loop, to collapse, to let the bow launch the arrow. that rotation can be produced by the swing of your folded arm, as in rotational back tension, or by some means of either, finger relaxation, or movement, or by rotating the entire hand at the wrist, thus inducing rotation to the hinge and moon, that lets the hook collapse and release the arrow.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

well said Padgett. the only place i'll caution,...... for the sake of those that are just starting out,..... is that you have to have develop and establish a decently reliable and reasonably confident execution, before speeding up the hinge like that. to start out trying to learn with a fast hinge, is asking for a timid execution to develop.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Padgett said:


> I didn't want that post to be about any one method so I just used the phrase rotating instead of a specific yielding or back tension or squeeze and pull.


Gotcha. I just wonder how the quest for straight lines and anything rotating (other than an arrow spinning  ) is a good thing.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Just correcting - January 2012.


Actually it was June 2004... But he did post similar information in Jan of 12... Here's the entire thread, some very interesting stuff... well worth a read. You may even find some familiar faces in it. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=86919


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

northern rednek said:


> I know there's been lots of discussion on it lately but I'd like to hear how individuals do it not arguments why. I'm a 300 50x shooter looking for more x's. I've been a pbt guy for years but I do understand the pulling out of perfect form thing. I recently tried a thumb trigger for 2 months to see if it would help keep me inline but it's not for me. While I had some great shooting with the thumb I found it not to be as consistent as my hinge. I went back to the hinge with pbt and things got better again. I tried the set back pressure then pull with ring and middle finger today with great results but I've been doing pbt for so long it's hard to convince myself there's a better way for me.


Magic!

Really I have no freaking idea - ive been doing it for so long I don't think about it.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

JV NC said:


> Gotcha. I just wonder how the quest for straight lines and anything rotating (other than an arrow spinning  ) is a good thing.


I was told a long time ago by one of the top pros to not worry about BT and just pull straight back. I should have listened better to him. Alignment is one of the biggest concerns when trying to "rotate" the shoulder/elbow unit with back tension to execute the shot. I struggled for years with this issue, thought it was just me and I had to live with it. Little did I know a little help from the hand would fix the problem.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I find that issue , not not a problem what so ever. it's all in how you set up your shot execution. ideally, you want the swing to arrive at the shot's break when the swing is in line with the arrows intended path. you do this by adjusting your starting position to accommodate the production of rotation you develop and the speed you have your release set on.
it's all relatively simple, if you learn the right sequence of adjustment and set up. 
again, as I've said before, the quality and thoroughness of the teaching, is what makes the difference between success and frustration.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

"long travel, is an arbitrary condition" what's long for one person, might not be long for another. with my style of firing engine, ' long" might be .010 or .012 engagement. for a person using an manipulating style of rotation, that .010, or .012 inch engagement might only be normal, or even slightly short.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Actually it was June 2004... But he did post similar information in Jan of 12... Here's the entire thread, some very interesting stuff... well worth a read. You may even find some familiar faces in it. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=86919


Got it. Looks like almost a repeat....


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Rick! said:


> Here's how I do it. One shot is finger diddling and two others are static hand.
> 
> http://youtu.be/l1cEPhJpii8


So if it is static hand, what is happening to make it fire?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I couldn't see any elbow movement... Is it moving down instead of back on the static shots?
Or do you think the hand is just yielding without you telling to?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

static hand is like a lever mounted on the release, that lever being the forearm and upper arm, swinging at the shoulder from rhomboid contraction. the swing is subtle and it only takes about a half inch movement to produce the rotation needed. in most cases, the only way to see the movement is to line up the elbow with some stationary feature on a wall or a beam, or something and watch. it hard to do in a video, because the camera is constantly moving a tine bit as well.


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

ron w said:


> static hand is like a lever mounted on the release, that lever being the forearm and upper arm, swinging at the shoulder from rhomboid contraction. the swing is subtle and it only takes about a half inch movement to produce the rotation needed. in most cases, the only way to see the movement is to line up the elbow with some stationary feature on a wall or a beam, or something and watch. it hard to do in a video, because the camera is constantly moving a tine bit as well.


I take it you didn't watch the video. Plane too see there was no elbow movement.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

bowfisher said:


> I take it you didn't watch the video. Plane too see there was no elbow movement.


It doesn't take much either way, whichever technique is used. You'd probably have to watch from directly behind to actually be able to see the "LAN2" rotation and even then you'd have to watch carefully. More apparent with an oly recurve shooter pulling through the clicker, but on a compound you could probably just barely see it...

LS


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Mahly said:


> I couldn't see any elbow movement... Is it moving down instead of back on the static shots?
> Or do you think the hand is just yielding without you telling to?


Here is a view from the back side, same day. Sometimes I get my index finger pressure perfect and it's just a back squeeze to send it. Sometimes it's a deep grip with a real firm front and a back squeeze. Sometimes it's just envisioning my elbow going straight back (even though it doesn't). Sometimes I can just "slime" my hand it goes. If I really relax my hand before I draw, I have a hard time loading up and my hold is weak. It releases really easy but I'm not good at just balancing the back end as my hold isn't where I like it. I'm finding that using a ring finger movement, as it upsets POI the least, is going to be a bit of an uphill learning curve.

http://youtu.be/lj2HOVz28Ec


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I


Rick! said:


> Here is a view from the back side, same day. Sometimes I get my index finger pressure perfect and it's just a back squeeze to send it. Sometimes it's a deep grip with a real firm front and a back squeeze. Sometimes it's just envisioning my elbow going straight back (even though it doesn't). Sometimes I can just "slime" my hand it goes. If I really relax my hand before I draw, I have a hard time loading up and my hold is weak. It releases really easy but I'm not good at just balancing the back end as my hold isn't where I like it. I'm finding that using a ring finger movement, as it upsets POI the least, is going to be a bit of an uphill learning curve.
> 
> http://youtu.be/lj2HOVz28Ec


So, after all this you find a little hand involvment produces the best POI? Btw, the link doesn't work.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

bowfisher said:


> I take it you didn't watch the video. Plane too see there was no elbow movement.


 maybe we should clarify what "static hand", means. when I see "static hand" I think "no independent hand movement", your fingers are part of your "hand". given that we both similarly understand a definition of what "static hand" is, I don't need to see a video to talk about release executions.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Rick! said:


> Here is a view from the back side, same day. Sometimes I get my index finger pressure perfect and it's just a back squeeze to send it. Sometimes it's a deep grip with a real firm front and a back squeeze. Sometimes it's just envisioning my elbow going straight back (even though it doesn't). Sometimes I can just "slime" my hand it goes. If I really relax my hand before I draw, I have a hard time loading up and my hold is weak. It releases really easy but I'm not good at just balancing the back end as my hold isn't where I like it. I'm finding that using a ring finger movement, as it upsets POI the least, is going to be a bit of an uphill learning curve.
> 
> http://youtu.be/lj2HOVz28Ec


Yeah sounds like me when I was trying the various different hand manipulation methods. What I found, *for me*, was that I couldn't be consistent with any kind of uneven pressure involved with these. That is, a little more on the index finger, a little less on the others, etc. It always seemed to vary each time, so much so that it always was a distraction. The target panic would almost immediately return too.

For me, turns out the only thing I really can do consistently is "hook" the handle with even finger pressure like I used to do with the fingers when shooting oly recurve. Flat back of the hand, even pressure at anchor. Then, when I release the safety and start the pull-through, I just maintain the pressure and let the hand take care of itself.

So it''s not a "firm" hand, it's more of a "hook" hand. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if some natural (but unintended) stretching goes on to help aid the "LAN2" rotation in turning the release handle, especially shooting my PSE with its somewhat firmer back wall.... But it definitely is just PBT in concept...

LS


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

EPLC said:


> I
> 
> So, after all this you find a little hand involvment produces the best POI? Btw, the link doesn't work.


Link is fixed, somehow the video was made private.

The correct interpretation of my statement is:

"...of the hand/finger manipulations I'm experimenting with, perfect fdp with just a ring finger movement results in the least amount of POI change."

My most accurate firing method is still no conscious hand manipulation. Obviously, going from a subconscious firing engine to a conscious one is not a short step. I'll have a secondary conscious firing method in a month or two. If it is the same or more accurate, great, as I need a secondary method when one gets "sticky" in competition. 

The main purpose of throwing up the vids is to show that there is little to no perceptible elbow misalignment on my firing method (even examining it with CMV Free). What I didn't expect to see is that I sway like a tree and can't feel it and I don't bring my face forward into the string but I do move it over to the string. Now I have two more fundamentals to work on...


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

unclejane said:


> Yeah sounds like me when I was trying the various different hand manipulation methods. What I found, *for me*, was that I couldn't be consistent with any kind of uneven pressure involved with these. That is, a little more on the index finger, a little less on the others, etc. It always seemed to vary each time, so much so that it always was a distraction. The target panic would almost immediately return too.
> 
> For me, turns out the only thing I really can do consistently is "hook" the handle with even finger pressure like I used to do with the fingers when shooting oly recurve. Flat back of the hand, even pressure at anchor. Then, when I release the safety and start the pull-through, I just maintain the pressure and let the hand take care of itself.
> 
> ...


The stretching of the hand is not what Ron used push as rotational BT. I don't think you and Ron are on the same page.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

he and I are exactly on the same page. rotational back tension is the firing engine that uses back tension rotation produced from rhomboid contraction, with no deliberated or consciously executed finger, hand, or wrist manipulation. natural give, or stretch, in the hand an/or fingers, whichever you want to call it, doesn't constitute "manipulation" by definition. movement that is not cerebrally generated, is not "manipulation".


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Rick! said:


> Link is fixed, somehow the video was made private.
> 
> The correct interpretation of my statement is:
> 
> ...


Conscious or not, your release elbow isn't rotating back as one would expect in a PBT execution. In fact your release elbow is slightly collapsing on your shot to the right. Based on what I'm seeing you would have to be executing the release with some expression in your hand... or wrist. One of the issues I experienced with trying to execute with a static hand is the buildup of tension in the system that doesn't really do anything but build more tension. I also see a lot of tension buildup in your shooting that may be helped with a little hand assistance. I've had to make this transition myself and while not an easy transition, I'm finding it well worth the effort.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Rick! said:


> Here is a view from the back side, same day. Sometimes I get my index finger pressure perfect and it's just a back squeeze to send it. Sometimes it's a deep grip with a real firm front and a back squeeze. Sometimes it's just envisioning my elbow going straight back (even though it doesn't). Sometimes I can just "slime" my hand it goes. If I really relax my hand before I draw, I have a hard time loading up and my hold is weak. It releases really easy but I'm not good at just balancing the back end as my hold isn't where I like it. I'm finding that using a ring finger movement, as it upsets POI the least, is going to be a bit of an uphill learning curve.
> 
> http://youtu.be/lj2HOVz28Ec


In that vid, you can see the release elbow is rotating down (using lats) as the shot progresses. It isn't much, but you can see it if you put your cursor on the tip of the elbow as a reference point and watch the movement from there.
That does help keep you in line, and I can't say that the hand isn't "giving" at all, but that's pretty much what I see when I'm shooting PBT as well.

Here is me back when I just got back into shooting a hinge (borrowed one from the shop). This is shooting with my version of PBT. You can use the poster in the background to see the elbow moving down during execution.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> he and I are exactly on the same page. rotational back tension is the firing engine that uses back tension rotation produced from rhomboid contraction, with no deliberated or consciously executed finger, hand, or wrist manipulation. natural give, or stretch, in the hand an/or fingers, whichever you want to call it, doesn't constitute "manipulation" by definition. movement that is not cerebrally generated, is not "manipulation".


Exactly, precisely my finding with the PBT method also. The difference is in the intent with respect to any responses or movements in the hand itself; those intentions are absent in PBT. As a matter of intention, it's nothing but come to anchor, transfer, and pull and that's all.

I'll take it any way I can get it, but the intentionality there is only with pulling with the back.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Mahly said:


> In that vid, you can see the release elbow is rotating down (using lats) as the shot progresses. It isn't much, but you can see it if you put your cursor on the tip of the elbow as a reference point and watch the movement from there.
> That does help keep you in line, and I can't say that the hand isn't "giving" at all, but that's pretty much what I see when I'm shooting PBT as well.
> 
> Here is me back when I just got back into shooting a hinge (borrowed one from the shop). This is shooting with my version of PBT. You can use the poster in the background to see the elbow moving down during execution.


Well either way, I wish I had as good a form as both you guys LOL..... I suspect my movement on the back end is more like yours here, tho that's without any video or other observation. I don't grip the hinge that deeply, but I've tried it that deeply and the shot still went off.
So much for the "myth"!

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> In that vid, you can see the release elbow is rotating down (using lats) as the shot progresses. It isn't much, but you can see it if you put your cursor on the tip of the elbow as a reference point and watch the movement from there.
> That does help keep you in line, and I can't say that the hand isn't "giving" at all, but that's pretty much what I see when I'm shooting PBT as well.
> 
> Here is me back when I just got back into shooting a hinge (borrowed one from the shop). This is shooting with my version of PBT. You can use the poster in the background to see the elbow moving down during execution.


Yes, but IMO the down movement is the result of a collapse of the system to the right. This is especially noticeable in shot #2 and again in the shot that is let down where it really became unmanageable. With regard to your video it looks like some tension buildup as well.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mahly said:


> In that vid, you can see the release elbow is rotating down (using lats) as the shot progresses. It isn't much, but you can see it if you put your cursor on the tip of the elbow as a reference point and watch the movement from there.
> That does help keep you in line, and I can't say that the hand isn't "giving" at all, but that's pretty much what I see when I'm shooting PBT as well.
> 
> Here is me back when I just got back into shooting a hinge (borrowed one from the shop). This is shooting with my version of PBT. You can use the poster in the background to see the elbow moving down during execution.
> ...


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

unclejane said:


> Well either way, I wish I had as good a form as both you guys LOL..... I suspect my movement on the back end is more like yours here, tho that's without any video or other observation. I don't grip the hinge that deeply, but I've tried it that deeply and the shot still went off.
> So much for the "myth"!
> 
> LS


I have somewhat loosened my grip on the hinge. That was literally the first time I had shot a hinge in a decade.
With my own hinge, I'm a little more relaxed, and I have been adding some hand movement ala Padgett's engines.
I am still getting good follow through (arm back, bow forward, chest expanding) so I know I am still using the back muscles (well, than and I make sure I am LOL!), my elbow just doesn't move down as part of the engine anymore.
There is a slightly less explosive followthrough as I am maintaining back tension instead of adding more and more to fire the hinge.
Sonny, I assure you there was no "added" followthrough. When I shoot PBT, it's pretty explosive.

This is manipulating the hinge, softer hand, less explosive, but back tension is still there.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> I have somewhat loosened my grip on the hinge. That was literally the first time I had shot a hinge in a decade.
> With my own hinge, I'm a little more relaxed, and I have been adding some hand movement ala Padgett's engines.
> I am still getting good follow through (arm back, bow forward, chest expanding) so I know I am still using the back muscles (well, than and I make sure I am LOL!), my elbow just doesn't move down as part of the engine anymore.


You look so much smoother in this video and you don't look like you are fighting it as in the first and the "death grip" seems to be gone as well. In the first video your almost vertical hand position would be such that would support a straight back and downward ark of the elbow, not a rotation around the back.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Yep, a lot less tension this way for me.
I was concerned I would have varying amounts of BT at the release of the arrow, but I think it has been as consistent as PBT was, if not more so.
Much more relaxed and enjoyable to shoot.

Also note, this was with limb stops...using travel (elbow going down) to build BT, the amount builds very rapidly (you could see the tension in the hand on the close up of the first vid) where on a bow with a softer wall, it isn't quite so drastic.
This is where manipulation is helping me, I can control the pressure, and maintain it where it works best for me.
I could shoot PBT with a solid wall, but it was tougher to do.

You also touched on something important. Because I was taught to pull straight back (elbow drop) instead of rotating the elbow around, the hinge works better the more vertical it is.
Manipulating the hinge, I can put my hand where its most comfortable.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> Yep, a lot less tension this way for me.
> I was concerned I would have varying amounts of BT at the release or the arrow, but I think it has been as consistent as PBT was, if not more so.
> Much more relaxed and enjoyable to shoot.
> 
> ...


I'm finding the same results w/o the strain


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Nice form Mahly, Nuts & Bolts couldn't even argue with that.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

bowfisher said:


> Nice form Mahly, Nuts & Bolts couldn't even argue with that.


Nope. Looks great to me too. And of course, taking advantage of the natural flexing of a looser hand to aid in the rotation doesn't violate any PBT ,er... standard or rule if there are such things. That's what I do on both my bows. Not only that, but the squishy wall of my Hoyt gives me even a 3rd source of aid. In other words, it's all still PBT and it's all good... 

LS


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm a little late to the party. 

But, why would anyone want to shoot a compound bow with only back tension as a means to fire? Honest question. Secondly.....are there people who think this method is desirable?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

JV NC said:


> I'm a little late to the party.
> 
> But, why would anyone want to shoot a compound bow with only back tension as a means to fire? Honest question.


Speaking only for myself, it's the best route around my target panic of all the techniques I've tried. It also preserves the most economy of effort, IMO - large muscle groups are best suited for large jobs like pulling back a heavy compound bow, so it has that benefit also.


> Secondly.....are there people who think this method is desirable?


That sort of strays into that which-method-is-better zone, really, so I'm going to avoid this question for now LOL.

LS


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm not going to argue with anyone. But, somewhere....you'd think athleticism would enter into this (for some). Archery (IMO) is about lines. I understood, shooting a recurve, I was pulling the string offline. I see no reason to do that with a compound. 

If some do......I sure won't argue with whatever they feel is best for them.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Plenty of answers to your questions in recent threads. Some my be locked, but you can still read them.

As for which is better, as mentioned in reference to my vids, I personally feel more relaxed manipulating the hinge, but PBT ( no hand rotation ) helped me with my case of TP more than I think any other form of engine would, and I carry a certain amount of that tension along with me when I use my hand to fire.

Some are better for some people, others better for other people.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I certainly didn't ask which was "better" 

If someone finds it more desirable for them..... Like I said, I sure won't argue with them. Whatever it takes.


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

JV NC said:


> I'm a little late to the party.
> 
> But, why would anyone want to shoot a compound bow with only back tension as a means to fire? Honest question. Secondly.....are there people who think this method is desirable?


Speaking only for myself , a few reasons , 1. with my TP I can and will punch any form of trigger be it thumb or index , 2. it forces me to shoot a strong shot by keeping my back into the shot till it breaks , which for me is also form wise my best shot , 3. for me , its just plain easier to run and the shot feels absolutely pure - something I don't seem able to achieve with a trigger , 4. it is as close to finger shooting as I can get with a release , finger shooting is my preferred style .. but TP has taken the fun out of that , so this is how I am still enjoying shooting

as far as are there people actually finding this a desirable method of shooting , I shoot in 2 leagues , about 20 shooters , everybody( 8 or so ) shooting high X count 300s are shooting hinges , they actually are a terrific release


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

unclejane said:


> Nope. Looks great to me too. And of course, taking advantage of the natural flexing of a looser hand to aid in the rotation doesn't violate any PBT ,er... standard or rule if there are such things. That's what I do on both my bows. Not only that, but the squishy wall of my Hoyt gives me even a 3rd source of aid. In other words, it's all still PBT and it's all good...
> 
> LS


Thanx!:thumbs_up

But just to be clear, the 2nd video I am purposely manipulating the hinge, but keeping a much more relaxed hand.
I am "yielding" the index finger while maintaining pressure on the others....I guess a conscious relaxation.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

ia bhtr said:


> Speaking only for myself , a few reasons , 1. with my TP I can and will punch any form of trigger be it thumb or index , 2. it forces me to shoot a strong shot by keeping my back into the shot till it breaks , which for me is also form wise my best shot , 3. for me , its just plain easier to run and the shot feels absolutely pure - something I don't seem able to achieve with a trigger , 4. it is as close to finger shooting as I can get with a release , finger shooting is my preferred style .. but TP has taken the fun out of that , so this is how I am still enjoying shooting
> 
> as far as are there people actually finding this a desirable method of shooting , I shoot in 2 leagues , about 20 shooters , everybody( 8 or so ) shooting high X count 300s are shooting hinges , they actually are a terrific release


I'm pretty sure you misunderstood my question. I'm not questioning hinge usage. I've started using one, myself.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

I've been experimenting with a new release technique that really allows me to run my release quickly and without it getting hung up. It also has been leading me to some high quality and consistent shooting. In a nutshell.

1. Smooth pull with back into anchor. Thumb is off peg and behind release and I have come to click at anchor. Pressure is on index finger.
2. Start aiming using back tension to hold.
3. Start release execution - build dynamic tension in back and transfer pressure on release to middle finger. Essentially pulling with middle finger which allows the hinge to rotate without having to think about relaxing your hand or rotating the hinge. 

Shot goes off smooth and easy every time. Although it may just a variation on the other techniques, for me, simply thinking about pulling with my middle finger while increasing back tension makes everything work so much smoother, steadier and more consistent.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I had a interesting day on the 3d course I actually shot all 30targets with strong executions and really nice floats on the 12 ring every shot but it was a really hard course and I found myself not firing often

So I just let down and I decided early on that I was going to continue to use the same engine all day and I wasn't going to add any extra tension to it because my float was really good and I didn't want to screw it up, I just ran my normal engine and when it didn't fire I let down.

I know this sounds simple but it isn't, it is something I could have never done in the past and I would have forced some of the shots to happen and I would of had a few poor executions that I would have wanted back. Being comfortable on a 3d course will come with time this spring and then my engine will run smoother out there but that dosentmean that I should shoot poor shots till then.

I used my squeeze and pull engine I outlined early in this thread.


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