# End Position of Release Arm?



## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I've noticed quite a variance in where the release arm and hand end up once the shot is fired. Some hands land just behind the neck, almost as if the hand rotated towards the back (Ex. Reo Wilde), while others land straight back. Is this a product of how they execute their shot, using back tension versus pulling?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Most like the shot replicated throughout, right to where the hand lands. And they practice this. I shot will Don Will, long time Field shooter. If his hand didn't "caress" his neck he knew his shot was off. I also noted his draw elbow would rotate back, like back tension would pull it. If the hand goes straight back it would seem a good shot. Those that let the elbow go out, count as a bad shot (I call it plucking the bow string).


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

because I shoot a hinge and I just try to pull the bow apart so it comes straight back,bernie pellerite says when you are pulling thru the shot try to touch your shoulder. if I get sloppy and don`t pull thru: the shot is usually poor. so the correct draw length for each person is very important also a bow with a hard wall helps too with less letoff.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Jesse Broadwater
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3iSiYJtec8


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Braden Gellenthien...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaWO-Bsx5ns


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

and Levi Morgan...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2kpBokFiWo


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

follow through with your release hand/arm, should be just the same with a release as with fingers. the hand should just wipe back across your cheek, and stop at the back of the ear thereabout, staying in light contact with your head, all the way back. any more than that and it's either wasted motion or deliberately exaggerated follow through.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

My release hand will usually end up right above my shoulder... About where it runs out of travel.
I don't add to it, and I don't try to control or reduce it.
Maintaining back tension through the shot mandates that the hand go back. For me, stopping short of that would mean I had bad follow through... most likely it would be from a punch, or a shot going off right as I was going to let down.
Happily, the punches have gone away, and I'm also very happy that I haven't needed to let down very often, and when I do, I am stopping the engine before it is too late.

Much of the variances are the result of how aggressive the shooter is. Ones that "pull the bow apart" will have a bigger reaction. I personally maintain back tension, not continue to increase it, but I'm also into the wall pretty much.
Different strokes...


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

ron w said:


> follow through with your release hand/arm, should be just the same with a release as with fingers. the hand should just wipe back across your cheek, and stop at the back of the ear thereabout, staying in light contact with your head, all the way back. any more than that and it's either wasted motion or deliberately exaggerated follow through.


Shouldn't it vary a little if your pulling through the shot versus contracting back?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

It probably doesn't matter exactly where your hand ends up as long as it's a natural reaction to a good shot and is the same every time.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Reverend said:


> Shouldn't it vary a little if your pulling through the shot versus contracting back?


I would think some variance, but you don't change back and forth between pulling and contracting and expect like results at the target.
I've tried this, pulling and using back tension, and it's hard to separate the two or keep them separate when using a thumb release. I'd be dead on one way and a trifle off the other way (I think left).


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Exactly. There will be variance between archers based on how they shoot (pulling through/contracting/maintaining "X" level of tension (how hard your into the wall) among other things).
The idea is that it's the same every time.
The trick is not to do anything in your follow through to make it the same, but for it to be the same based on how consistent the rest of your shot is.
For me, consistent follow through is an indicator of a consistent shot, not the result of adjusting my follow through.

I see some archers go way out of their way to repeat their follow through. Some are much better than I, so I can't say they are "wrong", but I don't agree with the philosophy.
Example: shooter "x" will be sure to touch his neck or shoulder after each shot. Making each follow through exactly the same.
My philosophy is that "proper" follow through is doing virtually nothing different than you were before the shot broke. If you hand just happens to touch your neck or shoulder, that's a nice reference, but I wouldn't try to add it in if it didn't happen naturally.
Working on follow through = working on doing absolutely nothing (which is something)


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the variations are produced by obvious variations in peoples anatomy. the follow through should only go as far as the limitations of one's range of natural movement. when the follow through goes beyond that natural range, it is deliberate and a conscious extension.....not at all useful in it's function and many times detrimental, as it must be distractingly thought about before happening.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

who ever the guy is in the above video, I'll say has a good natural follow through, but i'd say his draw length looks a bit excessive.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)




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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it well known that Reo's form steps outside the box of what proprietorially good form is. displaying a picture or a video of him shooting only goes to demonstrate that the idea that it is OK for HIM, applies to everyone.....and that is not at all accurate as far as known, established and accepted well developed archery form is concerned.
he will be the first to admit that his leaning works for him, but it will not work for everyone. 
I thought the idea of this forum was to educate and discuss elements of archery that will or can be applied to the larger majority of people interested in shoot as good as they can.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Here's a video that has 4 very good shooters. It's interesting to compare Tim's follow through with the others. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiM6qytqHsI

Since he's a command shooter, he doesn't have much of a reaction to the release.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

ron w said:


> it well known that Reo's form steps outside the box of what proprietorially good form is. displaying a picture or a video of him shooting only goes to demonstrate that the idea that it is OK for HIM, applies to everyone.....and that is not at all accurate as far as known, established and accepted well developed archery form is concerned.
> he will be the first to admit that his leaning works for him, but it will not work for everyone.
> I thought the idea of this forum was to educate and discuss elements of archery that will or can be applied to the larger majority of people interested in shoot as good as they can.


Actually watching the video one will see that it is of many pro shooters and their execution. This was not to discuss Reo's draw length.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

aread said:


> Here's a video that has 4 very good shooters. It's interesting to compare Tim's follow through with the others.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiM6qytqHsI
> 
> Since he's a command shooter, he doesn't have much of a reaction to the release.



Good vid. All of them different. Levi kinda loose at the end. Tim, well typical for a command shooter. Chance was tight and low. Nathan was middle of the road.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't recall the mention of Reo's draw length anywhere in any of my posts or in the post that spurned your comment to me not discussing Reo's draw length. the content of this thread also never mentioned any question about what the Pros do, yet there's the video of a line of pros shooting, big as day, in an attempt to justify what ?....... . are you suggesting that draw length in general has no input in where your draw arm follow through goes ?. 
please explain the purpose of the video, as to me, it has no bearing on this thread, other than to display something we all have already agreed upon,....that of there being a variation in where an individuals follow through ends up. we aren't all the same,....obviously.....so how could there not be variation from shooter to shooter ?.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm wondering how the method they use to execute their shot affects their follow through. 
Can you tell by looking at someone's follow-through if they use a pull-through, back tension, etc. type of execution? I looked at Jesse Broadwater's follow through and it seems a little more excessive than the others in the vid. Just wondering if that indicates anything??


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Is it follow through or a exaggeration of the shot?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you might be able to get an idea of how hard someone is on the stops by their follow through, but if they are using back tension and the shot breaks at the right alignment, there is no difference in the path of their hand during follow through.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Is it follow through or a exaggeration of the shot?


Don't really know Sonny. It looks exaggerated, but to be perfectly honest, he also looks very relaxed. That arm flies back more so than the others. Maybe it's an indicator of less tension in his arm? What thinketh ye?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rev, everyone has a different view of things. DH swears I'm ripping the shot, my release arm coming back, and another sidekick tries to tell DH I shot the sweetest shot he ever saw. I've let DH use my Stan two finger hinge and my ST360 thumb release and he goes nuts with them going off so sweet. It's just the difference between him and me.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

do you notice how Reo's follow through stays closer to his head and sort of just follows around to behind his ear more so that the other shooters, whose follow throughs all fly back and away from thier heads with their hands ending up in a much higher position ?.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahly, my mention of draw length was not directed at the video of Reo shooting. it was directed at the video before that.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

PM sent to avoid thread Highjacking


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Reverend said:


> Don't really know Sonny. It looks exaggerated, but to be perfectly honest, he also looks very relaxed. That arm flies back more so than the others. Maybe it's an indicator of less tension in his arm? What thinketh ye?


One thing I've heard, but can't confirm is that archers who have the shorter less explosive follow through tend to be stretched out a little more at full draw. This was back when the "Straight Talk From the Pros" video first came out. Someone noted that Dean Pridgen had a very short follow through compared to archers such as Jim Despart and Dave Cousins.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

aread said:


> One thing I've heard, but can't confirm is that archers who have the shorter less explosive follow through tend to be stretched out a little more at full draw. This was back when the "Straight Talk From the Pros" video first came out. Someone noted that Dean Pridgen had a very short follow through compared to archers such as Jim Despart and Dave Cousins.


That is me. I recorded myself shooting a few months ago and noticed that my release hand only comes back about 4". The way my bow is set up, it doesn't move very much at all.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> it well known that Reo's form steps outside the box of what proprietorially good form is. displaying a picture or a video of him shooting only goes to demonstrate that the idea that it is OK for HIM, applies to everyone.....and that is not at all accurate as far as known, established and accepted well developed archery form is concerned.
> he will be the first to admit that his leaning works for him, but it will not work for everyone.
> I thought the idea of this forum was to educate and discuss elements of archery that will or can be applied to the larger majority of people interested in shoot as good as they can.


Back in full force I see. :lol:

What's it been? Two days?


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson.......I just posted something to my facebook wall that applies 100% here. You'll know it if you see it. :cheers:

As far as the end position of your release arm, is it really important? Yes, it could be said that it's a by-product of a strong shot. But is there a consensus on what exactly is the proper place for your release hand to end up? Isn't it different for everyone? Or could it not be different for an individual depending on shooting up/down angles or on flat surfaces? 

I don't know. I'm not certain your release arm follow through has anything to do with whether you hit the middle or not. Take two completely opposing release arm follow throughs........Dave Cousins and Tim Gillingham. They both hit the middle a lot. Just an observation.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Do you think Jesse has shot much with this guy? https://www.facebook.com/JesseTheFr...8223061002982/441835939308359/?type=2&theater


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

I must be doing something [everything] wrong... While I do have some backwards movement of my release arm, it's a conscious movement, part of the "I MUST HAVE A GOOD FOLLOWTHROUGH." When I don't think about it, more often than not, my release hand doesn't leave my anchor point. This is especially true of my index and LH Hex releases, but I have caught myself doing it with the HBC as well. 

Maybe my draw length is a bit short... I have "tension" in my back to steady myself, but I think (and I'm not great at the personal analysis so I could be wrong) the "tension" at the release head comes from pushing the bow forward and having the string "pull" my release hand tighter into my anchor point rather than trying to pull it away (resulting in a follow through to my shoulder). 

Yeah yeah yeah... Just another bass ackwards technique by the blind guy, but if I have to consciously think "let the arm 'fly' back" then is that kind of follow through natural?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

ShootingBlind said:


> I must be doing something [everything] wrong... While I do have some backwards movement of my release arm, it's a conscious movement, part of the "I MUST HAVE A GOOD FOLLOWTHROUGH." When I don't think about it, more often than not, my release hand doesn't leave my anchor point. This is especially true of my index and LH Hex releases, but I have caught myself doing it with the HBC as well.
> 
> Maybe my draw length is a bit short... I have "tension" in my back to steady myself, but I think (and I'm not great at the personal analysis so I could be wrong) the "tension" at the release head comes from pushing the bow forward and having the string "pull" my release hand tighter into my anchor point rather than trying to pull it away (resulting in a follow through to my shoulder).
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah... Just another bass ackwards technique by the blind guy, but if I have to consciously think "let the arm 'fly' back" then is that kind of follow through natural?


It's likely to be tough for you. I shoot my best when I focus on the target with my eyes so that an unanticipated release happens naturally. You can't do that, but maybe you can focus on your aiming system. You are right that thinking about the follow through usually ends up with one that's not a natural result of a good shot. The blank bale drills that I was taught consist of a shot with my mind focused on a single part of my form. Bow hand, balance, anchors, etc. 

If you can focus on one part, then the other parts of your form are operating subconsciously. So if you practice focus on your aiming system, then your follow through should become natural. 

Have you read Al Henderson's book? One chapter in it is "What we can learn from blind archers". It's been many years since I read it, but the rest of the book may also have value for you. It talks about focus on this shot. 

Allen


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

aread said:


> It's likely to be tough for you. I shoot my best when I focus on the target with my eyes so that an unanticipated release happens naturally. You can't do that, but maybe you can focus on your aiming system. You are right that thinking about the follow through usually ends up with one that's not a natural result of a good shot. The blank bale drills that I was taught consist of a shot with my mind focused on a single part of my form. Bow hand, balance, anchors, etc.
> 
> If you can focus on one part, then the other parts of your form are operating subconsciously. So if you practice focus on your aiming system, then your follow through should become natural.
> 
> ...



I've been looking for Al's book, but I can't find an audible or electronic version anywhere.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

ShootingBlind said:


> I must be doing something [everything] wrong... While I do have some backwards movement of my release arm, it's a conscious movement, part of the "I MUST HAVE A GOOD FOLLOWTHROUGH." When I don't think about it, more often than not, my release hand doesn't leave my anchor point. This is especially true of my index and LH Hex releases, but I have caught myself doing it with the HBC as well.
> 
> Maybe my draw length is a bit short... I have "tension" in my back to steady myself, but I think (and I'm not great at the personal analysis so I could be wrong) the "tension" at the release head comes from pushing the bow forward and having the string "pull" my release hand tighter into my anchor point rather than trying to pull it away (resulting in a follow through to my shoulder).
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah... Just another bass ackwards technique by the blind guy, but if I have to consciously think "let the arm 'fly' back" then is that kind of follow through natural?


While not knowing how everything related to a blind archer. What you described is exactly what we see with command shooters. They know when they are going to hit the trigger (hinges can be punched as well), and so they know when they don't have to pull anymore.
Movement for the sake of follow through is not follow through.
You you were aiming at your target, and the d loop broke, or if the release failed, you would have follow through.

Flow through simply means your not changing anything in your pull or back tension. The shot fired you keep pulling.
Command shooting and timing the shot with relaxing introduces a new variable. I have seen people relax too soon and it messes up their shot.

It's all about repeatability. If I change nothing at the shot... That's pretty easy to repeat. 
If I time when I will stop pulling, I will be a little off each time. Sometimes early, sometimes late.

Now AFTER the shot, it doesn't matter. Some will follow through for say 3 seconds. Others wil follow through for only a second or less. As far as the arrow is concerned there isn't a difference. But those that hold on longer will have some different looking follow throughs.

At that point, it's whatever works for you and your brain.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

unfortunately, as a unsighted shooter, the one element that triggers and initiate the trained response of running the release execution from seeing a good sight picture, is absent in your shooting. by the fact that you must rely on the feel of your hand against the tripod's pointer, your release becomes a deliberate commanded response to feel, rather than to to something as sub conscious as sight. your entire platform depends on the support it gets from your lower body, if that moves or changes in any way, the relationship between bow hand and footing alignment changes and the shot goes someplace else. 
I would think it would be beneficial for you to work on consistency from the shoulders down and let your release execution be that of a commanded process. talk this over with your coach and see what he has to say about it. 
as much as sighted shooters claim that their shot is a smoothly constructed series of events, sight, is the principle motivator in the cadence and automation of the linking of the series of events that process the shot. simply, when the sight picture is wrong, the shot is not initiated, when the sight picture is right, the shot proceeds. sight is the "switch" that turns everything on and off. because sight is somewhat intuitive, it controls the process by deciding if the sight picture will stay where it should, and /or controls it's progression by predicting that the sight picture is not going to stay in place. essentially, the feel of your stance and it's consistency, becomes your "sight picture".


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

And this is why this is my favorite forum and why I wish I could frame all my questions as "advanced competition" and ask them here. Ron, command shooting is pretty much [exactly] how coach describes the shot sequence every time we discuss it. I'm still new and trying out different methods, but I always seem to come back to this and it may be about time to "ignore" the "don't command shoot" advice. Conversations with coach have been minimal lately, he's focused on Janice's training for para worlds in Germany next month. 

Okay, to bring this hijacked thread back on course, has someone's shoulder range of motion (RoM) been offered as another factor in where the release arm ends up? If someone has more or less mobility in the shoulder their follow through may look different than another archer's.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think the ROM issue results in the release ending in a slightly different location, but it shouldn't influence it's path of movement, in it's early stage,...that of the instant of separation with the string. as always, what you do after the shot starts before the shot. with that criteria, the instant of separation and the immediate time after, has a lot to do with just how smoothly the shot breaks from the release. working on letting that motion happen as naturally as possible, with no anticipation, will have great influence. the trouble with command shooting is that the break is somewhat anticipated and that can influence the natural path of the follow through, thus affecting the shot.
that said, I think the release, in your case, may have to be that of a commanded nature, for obvious reasons, but working on developing the subconscious process after the initial command to start can still be accomplished with, what is called generically "blind bailing" by sighted shooters. a process where a shooter closes his eyes and concentrates deeply, on every muscle's activity in the process of operating the release. in your case, I would think...... the subconscious response would be that the process runs after you mentally command it to start. that link, being between thought and action, instead of sight and action. intense concentration on the muscular activity of the release process specifically is the key, here. I wouldn't think there would not be any difference in that respect , between sighted and non-sighted archers. only the initiation of the trained execution would have to come (be generated) from a different source. your subconscious is capable of dealing with the feeling at the pointer and processing the muscular action needed at the same time, it just needs to be taught to do it, by "intensely concentrated repetition".....which is what "blind baling is to a sighted shooter. I would think the fact they you don't see the target, would be of little concern when developing the thought process necessary to physically run the release. the source that initiates the process, makes no difference weather from sight or thought, the key is to think, "ok start the execution" and then from that point on, develop the execution subconsciously, as any sighted shooter would do by intensly concentrating on the muscular activity involved. 
then, where a sighted shooter's "trigger" is a good sight picture that initiates the subconscious execution, yours would be the feeling of the bow hand in the right place against the pointer and the conscious thought of, "start the execution ". from that point, the execution runs by itself, once taught to do so.
to be honest, it's not so much different with sighted shooters. the sub conscious execution, is indeed started by the good sight picture and a conscious confirmation that we like what we see,... so "let it run". in your case, you have to, "like what you feel", as your decision to "let it run". similarly, there are many times when the process runs, even though the sight picture we see, isn't perfect, simply because everything feels right. those are the times that a sighted shooter gets the feeling that they could hit the center, with their eyes closed and it's based on the results of their blind baling and subconscious development of their execution as a whole. 
just food for thought,..... talk this over with your coach.


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