# how hard to push with bow arm?



## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

I've had a problem with my bow shoulder collapsing, caused by not pushing with my bow arm. I've been focussing on pushing with my bow arm, which stops the collapse, but I am not sure how hard to push. How hard I push affects my draw length, and how easy it is to go through the clicker. I am using lighter limbs for indoor season, to work on my form, and one way I can set my clicker is by raising the bow with a relaxed shoulder, and pushing as hard as possible as soon as I begin to draw. An alternative way I've experimented with is to not push as hard as possible immediately, but to try to balance my pushing force with the draw force, and pushing harder as I draw further back; this requires me to make a judgement about how much I need to push. The advantage of pushing as hard as possible is that I don't have to think about how hard to push; the disadvantage is that I tire more quickly. When I push as hard as possible, I wonder if there is a gap in my shoulder joint, and I don't have bone on bone contact. Is this possible? Some have told me it is not possible. I have noticed that if I try to push as hard as possible, at some point I will not be pushing as hard as in the beginning; certainly I will get stronger, but if I'm always pushing as hard as possible, I think I will always get tired after several arrows and not push as hard. 

Also, I've been told that once I raise the bow, I should tighten the muscles around the bow shoulder (the lower back muscles, and the triceps) in order to stabilize and set the bow shoulder. Others have told me not to do that. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Ric


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ric - 

"Pushing" the bow arm towards the target only aids alignment, nothing more. 
Therefore, you really can't "push" too hard, but you can start too early and burn yourself out faster. 

I wouldn't over think it. 
Once at anchor set your alignment (start the push) and shoot. 
In your case, thinking alignment might serve you better than pushing - but that's a guess.

I generallydon't recommend tightening any ancillary muscles. 
Meaning if it ain't doing something specific, don't force it. 

Viper1 out.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Just stick your arm out and hold it there. If you do a push up, when at the top of the exercise, you aren't really pushing. Your arms are extended and holding. 

At full draw it is the same. 

I wouldnt tighten or clinch any muscles during the draw and shot. Being relaxed is the key. Its not really pushing and pulling. It's more equal resistence. Resistence against the force of the bow to let back down. 

Chris


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Pushing technique involves bow shoulder moving forward during expansion to get "clik" from the cliker. Not extending the bow arm or the bow wrist. 
People often forgets that to make the cliker going, you need some sort of movement as in any case the point has to travel under the cliker for some distance, moving back or with cliker moving to target 

In THA I have explained the advantages of the pushing technique over the pulling and push-pulling ones, and how it has to work.

P.S:
Of course, to be able to move, bow shoulder must not be locked


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

The metaphor I use is pumping up a bicycle tire with a two-hand pump. That last smooth pump - the tire doesn't visibly move anymore, but you can feel that you're inputting that laaaaast small bit of pressure into the tire. There's something satisfying about feeling the internal pressure yield to the extra little smooth input.


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

Vittorio said:


> In THA I have explained the advantages of the pushing technique over the pulling and push-pulling ones, and how it has to work.


Is this something you can point us to? I'm not sure what "THA" is?


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

moomooholycow said:


> Is this something you can point us to? I'm not sure what "THA" is?


The Heretic Archer Book By Michele Frangilli


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

chang said:


> The Heretic Archer Book By Michele Frangilli


Thanks tons.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

chang said:


> The Heretic Archer Book By Michele Frangilli


a most excellent book.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Pushing also increases your draw length. Problematic with barebow shooters, but for clicker shooters it may result in the clicker going off earlier than expected


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I have tried pushing as a primary technique (but not now) and have used/continued to use it as Plan B when I'm struggling to pull through the clicker on a shot. My experience the downsides to pushing are (a) consistency of push and (b) wearing yourself out pushing (which are mutually disruptive, that is, when you get tired it gets harder to push "just so" and vice versa). Just like you want a consistent anchor and release, if you are pushing the bow forward, that has to be consistent too or you get variation of shot and results at the target. I think it's harder to push consistently than to pull consistently.

I would separate out collapse from follow through or effort in push or pull. My experience on exhausted days one can put in high effort to get the clicker off, decent release with follow through, then drop from exhaustion just after, and blow it still. It helps to work through the clicker but if you don't finish it off it guarantees nothing.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

as kind of a corollary, as I get older I find that the biggest inconsistency is not pulling or pushing, but being able to hold my core/torso at the same tension stability from shot to shot. A tiny tremor or wiggle in my torso results in bigger wiggle across my shoulders, with the expected negative outcome. 

But, if I am having trouble getting through the clicker, if I concentrate on keeping my inner core firm and expanding, it helps my upper body relax and the clicker goes off easier and smoother


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## huckduck (Nov 24, 2014)

lksseven said:


> as kind of a corollary, as I get older I find that the biggest inconsistency is not pulling or pushing, but being able to hold my core/torso at the same tension stability from shot to shot. A tiny tremor or wiggle in my torso results in bigger wiggle across my shoulders, with the expected negative outcome.
> 
> But, if I am having trouble getting through the clicker, if I concentrate on keeping my inner core firm and expanding, it helps my upper body relax and the clicker goes off easier and smoother


I've just learned this recently. i'm amazed how much more consistent i am, not to mention my groups have tightened up


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## alithearcher (Sep 18, 2017)

Do you consider locking/setting the bow shoulder down? Will decrease draw length, but brings stability. In case you didn't see it before, search Youtube for "02 Archery GB how to coach Set Up" - sorry can't post links


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

alithearcher said:


> Do you consider locking/setting the bow shoulder down? Will decrease draw length, but brings stability. In case you didn't see it before, search Youtube for "02 Archery GB how to coach Set Up" - sorry can't post links


Compound only. Too much difficult to manage for cliker shooters. Only one that is really able to manage it with cliker is OH, Jin Hyek


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Pushing also increases your draw length. Problematic with barebow shooters, but for clicker shooters it may result in the clicker going off earlier than expected


Pete, not so much an overt 'pushing', but rather an 'internal pressurizing/swelling' - not to increase draw length, but rather to 'maintain it' so that the clicker goes off exactly when you expect it to, not later because 'being careful' is causing the archer's shoulder give up ground ever so slightly to his bow position


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## Bavarian Hart (Jul 23, 2017)

Some enlightening comments from all-star Archery Talk members! Thanks!


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## Migit78 (Sep 18, 2012)

Just one more way to look at it.

When I draw through my clicker, I do so like most archers by applying back tension, however something I notice in new archers at our club, is they seem to focus all that tension in there drawing side. If you split it and apply even tension to both sides of your back, your bow are does feel like its "pushing" on your bow, while your draw arm comes back. 

That tension should stop your collapse too.


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## xyren (Sep 10, 2018)

Great tips all around. Thanks all.


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Ric, you could do worse than contact Chris above about his linear draw process. He generally suggests it for people who have trouble getting in line (not a problem I've really had) - however I have found that the shot sequence he teaches has aided my bow shoulder stability A LOT - which is a problem I was well aware that I had.

Regards,

James


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

This concept has always given me trouble. I think conceptually I can’t make myself think of muscles “pushing”. I’m certain that I’m doing this on some level, but it feels more like keeping my bow shoulder down and in line then rotating drawing the angles of my segments closure in line until I release. I don’t know from where the muscle would exert force to push the bow forward except rotation, or elbow. I’m not arguing that it happens, but I don’t understand how the shoulder girdle could accomplish this pushing.In any case though there is a movement, but for me it’s always felt more rotational (which is probably why I miss left-right). 


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Easy - pushing forward is shoulder protraction.

https://www.tennisfitnesslove.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/scaplar_actions-e1480363280786.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

Z3R0 said:


> Easy - pushing forward is shoulder protraction.
> 
> https://www.tennisfitnesslove.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/scaplar_actions-e1480363280786.jpg
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


So, to me that feels like rotation and not pushing. One, because the muscles causing that scapular protraction are muscles on the anterior of the body pulling the scapula and causing it to rotate away from the spine. Two, if the muscles on the anterior side are contracting at the same rate that the muscles on the posterior side are relaxing, it’s a zero sum and you haven’t caused any more or less extension. 

I think of it like a back hoe. Once you’ve full engaged all of the hydraulic actuators to the point where all of the segments line up to make a 0 degree line, it can’t extend anymore because the only force it can exert is leverage on the angles. I think once this is accomplished in the body there are no muscles that can move any of our segments further away from midline. It’s like if I asked you to lift the crown of your head away from your shoulders making yourself taller. What you would probably do is tilt your head forward giving the feeling of getting taller, and stretching the spindles on the back of the neck giving the sensation of pushing your head up. In actuality though you didn’t get any taller, because your height is fixed. 

Now, if we are not fully expanded (0 degree lines at all segments) before we move through the clicker, reducing the angles will increase length between the draw elbow and the bow hand effectively feeling like we are pushing and/or pulling. To me though, this feels like a rotation rather than a pushing. And of course this is perfectly plausible because there is no way we could ever get all of our various segments into 0 degree lines. It’s impossible. 

I’m totally open to being wrong here, and only argue for the sake of trying to understand. I am not convinced that we can push the arm away from the midline of our bodies especially under significant tension. I think we secure the shoulder as best we can and oppose all forces exerted on any angles in our alignment which are not 0 degrees by contracting muscles which leverage the segments to get closer into line causing the clicker to break. 

That’s my hypothesis of what is actually happening. I’m sure there are people who are much better shooters and coaches than me who will say that I’m flat out wrong. I respect that, and it maybe the case. But I’m not convinced yet. 


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Its not in the muscles. Its about the bone alignment.


That is why you are not sure where the shoulder ahould be.

Chris


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

In the last year and a half I've come to believe I had the problem with shoulder collapse and the question about how hard to push the bow because I had a very weak core. I have found that by strengthening my core, such as by doing side planks, that I don't have to pay much attention to how hard I push the bow. I think the reason is that my body is now able to resist shoulder collapse naturally (when I'm not exhausted) and so I don't have to think about it. When I expand I both push and pull, but I no longer worry about how hard to push. So my suggestion to my past-self is to do side planks and make sure my core is strong enough to not struggle with pushing. 

Ric


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> Its not in the muscles. Its about the bone alignment.
> 
> 
> That is why you are not sure where the shoulder should be.
> ...


^^^This


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