# Marked or unmarked targets



## kevinpse (Dec 22, 2013)

Marked as known yardage or marked scoring areas

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

I am 100% opposed to Known distance 3D, yet Im 100% in favor of outlining the 12's and 10 ring for Unknown with a different color than the animal.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

since now a days I just shoot for fun and am getting ready to bowhunt where I always use a range finder when bowhunting,i will always now prefer known yardage as does most of my friends and family.we are all very busy in life and don`t have time to spend walking around judging different yardages in the woods,fields or whatever. we all would prefer no different mark colors on bulleyes either reason animals don`t have bulleyes marked either.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

Yeah, Just like animals dont shout " Hey D#*%*S, I'm 39.5 yards" either.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

Point 2 ....the barely to invisible higher scoring rings aren't usually located in the optimum place to shoot a live animal that cant speak English to tell you how far away he is in Yards.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

point 3.......The target becomes Marked after the 1st shooter in the Group stick foam. So its only unmarked for the 1st shooter in the rotating group of Archers


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

If you need marked targets go shoot field archery.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

If you need known distance go shoot field archery.


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

I don't care if the targets are known distance, marked scoring rings, use range finder, no range finder etc.... As long as I'm shooting, I'm happy. This being said, I prefer challenging courses. Some are more challenging in different ways...

Example: This deer spread from a shoot in Yuma, Az. If you hit a doe, you deduct points unless you purchased a "doe tag" then instead of negative points, it's a miss. It wasn't a known distance course but range finders were allowed. If I recall correctly, I had to shoot this target from my knees.








Or this deer (Phoenix, Az) where the vitals were obscured from the shooting position unless you are over 6' tall. (I'm only 5'8") I had to aim where I thought the scoring rings were and "drop" my arrow in. Range finders were allowed.









This target (Blythe, CA) was great example of risk vs reward. You could just barely see the top of the 10 ring from the shooting stake. You could risk an arrow and go for the 10 or play it safe and take an 8.









I love shoots like this. They are very challenging (even with range finders). I'm not saying I'd want to shoot a course of 100 targets like these... but having a few really gets me thinking.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I prefer to shoot everything unmarked in 3D.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

as in unmarked yards, unmarked targets or both? Do you insist on shooting 1st on all targets so you have no marks?


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

at Halon, it wasn't known distance yet LRF's were allowed?


----------



## KeTech (Jan 8, 2017)

The point of 3D is to simulate a game hunting experience, otherwise shoot spots; unknown and no markings, everything else is just plain silly.


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Mathew Lyman said:


> at Halon, it wasn't known distance yet LRF's were allowed?


The shoot at Blythe didn't allow range finders (it was also the first time I was forced into "Open" class because of my HHA) since there were prizes... (I came in 3rd shooting my hunting bow and an HHA against guys with stabs, back bars and scopes) The other two were just large "fun" shoots so you could use RF or guesstimate... These shoots were also a few years ago when the concept of "Marked/Known Yardage" shoots weren't "a thing" yet. 

I have markers around my tree stands out to 40 yards so I can quickly estimate range. I set my turkey decoys out in 5 yard intervals out to 25 yards so I know which range to dial in. I also carry my range finder if there is a shot beyond my markers. Since 3D is/was intended to mimic hunting, I see no issues with KD or allowing RF. I would argue that shots like the pics I posted, are more challenging than having to guesstimate range on a deer in a clearing.....


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

KeTech said:


> The point of 3D is to simulate a game hunting experience, otherwise shoot spots; unknown and no markings, everything else is just plain silly.


You're not a fan of Total Archery Challenge or R100 type shoots? I'm doing both this year and can't wait!!!! Calling "KD/MD/RF allowed" shoots silly is awfully narrow minded of you. You're free to shoot how you want but, you're missing out on some great 3D shoots if you won't go to shoots that allow them.

I don't know about you but I know the range (+/- 3 yards) to every live animal I've shot with a bow. I used to measure with a tape in the off season and put out markers, now I use my range finder when I set up my stand/blind.


----------



## Alabamadog (Mar 16, 2015)

I moved into a half known class this year. Makes the game very fun. Mostly Asa rules around here, however most of the local shoots are never flat and in lanes but most are up and downhill. None of the targets have different colors on the scoring rings.
Heck , half the challenge is finding them


----------



## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Hell no to marked targets. Then I have no excuse for missing it [emoji847]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

Levi Morgan's OPA has .


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

I prefer unmarked. I have no problem with Known. I wouldn't mind trying it. Life is busy hard to get time to judge yardage and be good at it. That shouldn't turn people away from participating in 3D.

First thing I do when done setting up my tree stand when hunting is use my range finder to find a 30 yard circle around my area.

Hopefully this post will get Mathew Lyman some more posts....dude really?? your opinion is the only one that matters or what? Do you sight in unknown yardage also?


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Alabamadog said:


> I moved into a half known class this year. Makes the game very fun. Mostly Asa rules around here, however most of the local shoots are never flat and in lanes but most are up and downhill. None of the targets have different colors on the scoring rings.
> Heck , half the challenge is finding them


What is "half known"??? Do they mark only half of the targets???


----------



## Alabamadog (Mar 16, 2015)

Unmarked, you can use a rangefinder on half the targets preselected first half or last. Open c class

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

and whos preventing the one shooter in a group from using it in the 1st 1/2 and another on the 2nd 1/2 and sharing ranges? 

Who has shot marked targets in the 1st place ?


----------



## Alabamadog (Mar 16, 2015)

I'd ask Asa. It's their rules


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Mathew Lyman said:


> and whos preventing the one shooter in a group from using it in the 1st 1/2 and another on the 2nd 1/2 and sharing ranges?
> 
> *Who has shot marked targets in the 1st place* ?


I did a club shoot this weekend and all the yardages were marked. I used my own range finder because that's what I used to determine range to sight in my bow. Most of my readings were +/- 1 yards of the marked yardage but some were 3-4 yards different.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I don't care if the targets are known distance, marked scoring rings, use range finder, no range finder etc.... As long as I'm shooting, I'm happy. This being said, I prefer challenging courses. Some are more challenging in different ways...
> 
> Example: This deer spread from a shoot in Yuma, Az. If you hit a doe, you deduct points unless you purchased a "doe tag" then instead of negative points, it's a miss. It wasn't a known distance course but range finders were allowed. If I recall correctly, I had to shoot this target from my knees.
> View attachment 5741329
> ...


Very cool.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Known yardage works for me.
Tell you what, you mow your lawn and I'll mow mine. :wink:


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

KeTech said:


> The point of 3D is to simulate a game hunting experience, otherwise shoot spots; unknown and no markings, everything else is just plain silly.


Seriously?!?! The scoring rings on foam animals are rarely the perfect spot for shooting a live animal. Angled targets require different aiming points.........



Mathew Lyman said:


> and whos preventing the one shooter in a group from using it in the 1st 1/2 and another on the 2nd 1/2 and sharing ranges?
> 
> Who has shot marked targets in the 1st place ?


:doh: The same freaking thing that keeps people from cheating any other way! When I shot in an unknown class after I shot I knew the distance of the target within a half yard. Laugh if you want but back then I shot 57-60 X games with BHFS gear in national tournaments. It's fairly obvious you aren't an experienced 3D'er.

If a group of folks want to cheat not having a rangefinder does NOT keep them from scoring high. The best method of cheating is simply pencil whipping. Everyone that shoots an unknown distance class should shoot a good 3D course with a rangefinder at least once. MANY, if not most, of them would be surprised at how low they score! The same can be said if the same folks tried competing in indoor spots. Most will disappear into the night with their tails tucked. An archer scoring lower with a rangefinder than WITHOUT a rangefinder is not unusual especially an archer that isn't well seasoned and already competing at a fairly high level. The best 3D'ers, in any non-novice class,are tough competitors and when they shoot Known distance their scores go well up. They are also tough competitors in indoor spots or any other archery game.

I shot the OPA tournament last year and not only are range finders used but the 12 and 14 rings are brightly colored!


----------



## Dino757 (Jul 2, 2016)

I see it this way. Unmarked 3D is a 2 discipline sport. 1/2 shooting and 1/2 judging. This may help to level the field. I shoot with a guy that I think we would both agree I am a better shot, BUT we always score close because he judges better. When I shoot unknown I always seem to blow a target or 2. 

Now marked 3D is cut throat. At least in my area it is. You better have your stuff together. We have a lot of good shooters that will score well every time out. So if you think you are a good shooter but cant judge distance pay your money and step right up. 

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. I like to shoot both. Don't understand why people have to put labels on everything. 

As for cheating I have seen that most people that scream some one cheated are the guys that just isn't quite good enough to win. Does cheating happen, Yes. But I think people have an easier time accepting a butt whippin if they tell themselves they got beat by a pencil.


----------



## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

Unknown vs Known or marked vs unmarked...doesn't matter to me, just shut up and shoot what makes you happy.


----------



## NYS REP (Dec 21, 2003)

blade37defender said:


> Unknown vs Known or marked vs unmarked...doesn't matter to me, just shut up and shoot what makes you happy.


Amen!!!!!
As Jack Wallace said and I agree. I really enjoy just shooting a bow and arrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## KeTech (Jan 8, 2017)

Kstigall said:


> Seriously?!?! The scoring rings on foam animals are rarely the perfect spot for shooting a live animal. Angled targets require different aiming points.........


So what's your point? That higher scoring targets are located in positions, that are not prime kill shots? Yea, so? Doesn't that still teach you to be able to pick a spot on an animal an lay the arrow into a very precise location without having a yellow dot show you where it is? Sounds to me that's the skill a hunter needs; to shot an animinal right where he wants to without having any indicator of where exactly that spot is on the animal.

Or are you trying to say that this teaches you bad habits, that you may shoot your next buck at the 14 ring location next year because you've been brain washed by shooting too many 14 rings? Is so, I would ask you the same thing, seriously?


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

blade37defender said:


> Unknown vs Known or marked vs unmarked...doesn't matter to me, just shut up and shoot what makes you happy.


AGREED !! I have my own 36 target 3d range on my land and friends help me some,we get together picnic sometimes,drink beer even have a campfire and as far as marked or unmarked none of us give a rats rearend who wins,some of these archers at my place have won state championships even in the hard pro class too ,some have done well on the national level too in archery. the only thing at my place we worry about is having enough cold beer on ice !


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Sorry, 3D is not hunting. I think it's good practice to help judge distance and make a good shot, but it's an archery game. Not hunting. Lot's of people shoot 3D that do not hunt.


----------



## bagman449 (Feb 28, 2015)

3D IS a target shoot shooting for score. If they say the 14 ring is on the animals knee or hit the apple in the deers mouth then that's what I shoot at. It's about points. Known or unknown. If you don't want to shoot where the designated mark is for competition don't compete and carry on with your imaginary hunt. And then you can declare "That would have been a kill" all you want.


----------



## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

bagman449 said:


> 3D IS a target shoot shooting for score. If they say the 14 ring is on the animals knee or hit the apple in the deers mouth then that's what I shoot at. It's about points. Known or unknown. If you don't want to shoot where the designated mark is for competition don't compete and carry on with your imaginary hunt. And then you can declare "That would have been a kill" all you want.


If you are shooting 3D in a organized event, I completely agree with this ^^^. But, I seldom shoot IBO/ASA etc... When I do club shoots (no score cards) I only care if the arrow hits in the "kill zone".... When I'm I'm shooting in a competition, I play the game to win...


----------



## mpgavin87 (Oct 21, 2011)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I don't care if the targets are known distance, marked scoring rings, use range finder, no range finder etc.... As long as I'm shooting, I'm happy. This being said, I prefer challenging courses. Some are more challenging in different ways...
> 
> Example: This deer spread from a shoot in Yuma, Az. If you hit a doe, you deduct points unless you purchased a "doe tag" then instead of negative points, it's a miss. It wasn't a known distance course but range finders were allowed. If I recall correctly, I had to shoot this target from my knees.
> View attachment 5741329
> ...


These courses seem awesome! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lk20103 (Oct 4, 2007)

I get so tired of hear about this. Known or unknown....who cares. this is target archery no mater how you do it. most people shoot 3D as a sport. it really has nothing to do with hunting, its just fun. how many of you own or even carry a RF when you hunt. I don't hunt but bet there aren't many, so whats the big deal. And keep in mind, everyone can not judge distance well enough to shoot unknown. I am one of those, and it has nothing to do with how much I practice. I have had a couple of strokes and 2 different brain surgeries. my brain doest work the way it used to. 20 yards or 40 yards, it all looks the same to me, but I still love to shoot


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

lk20103 said:


> i get so tired of hear about this. Known or unknown....who cares. This is target archery no mater how you do it. Most people shoot 3d as a sport. It really has nothing to do with hunting, its just fun. How many of you own or even carry a rf when you hunt. I don't hunt but bet there aren't many, so whats the big deal. And keep in mind, everyone can not judge distance well enough to shoot unknown. I am one of those, and it has nothing to do with how much i practice. I have had a couple of strokes and 2 different brain surgeries. My brain doest work the way it used to. 20 yards or 40 yards, it all looks the same to me, but i still love to shoot


exactly!


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

as a older bowhunter with to many surgeries too ,I always carry a range finder bowhunting and all target archery. yes 3d is kinda a target archery sport but at my private range my 3d range is set-up like hunting conditions more with my 36- 3d targets in the woods.i practice with my range finder and archery equipment always when I shoot 3d,to be a good bowhunter requires a lot of archery practice along with scouting all year.


----------



## Jody S. (Jul 9, 2015)

I totally agree!There are three parts to shooting 3D. Judging distance-trusting your judgement -and executing the shot.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

^^^me too. There is only two parts to shooting K3D . executing the shot and Leaving your manhood at home.


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Mathew Lyman said:


> ^^^me too. There is only two parts to shooting K3D . executing the shot and Leaving your manhood at home.


Sometimes your finger gets sore pressing the button. lain:


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Mathew Lyman said:


> ^^^me too. There is only two parts to shooting K3D . executing the shot and Leaving your manhood at home.


*Come and Get You Some......*if you can!


----------



## Larry Tanner (Oct 25, 2012)

Mathew Lyman said:


> ^^^me too. There is only two parts to shooting K3D . executing the shot and Leaving your manhood at home.


Lol. This guy. Probably thinks the vehicle he drives is the good good one, or bow he shoots is the only one anyone should be shooting. You can always expect some tool to question others manhood by the archery class they shoot. But yet he wants big glowing spots where he is supposed to shoot. I bet he has a deck of 52 man cards. Did you ever think some shoot for fun I'm sure you don't but most do. As for me I will shoot anything in front of me could care less know unknown. I'll even shoot one with big old orange spot saying "SHOOT ME HERE". 

Good lord relax and have fun.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

Mathew Lyman said:


> ^^^me too. There is only two parts to shooting K3D . executing the shot and Leaving your manhood at home.


 > Mathew shame on you, manhood thing ? really ? there are some good comments without being cocky,some positive and some negative. some of these post are from some dang good archers too,maybe even a couple of vets too and some of these vets have been to hell and back,these vet`s could tell you a thing or two about manhood.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Pete53 said:


> > Mathew shame on you, manhood thing ? really ? there are some good comments without being cocky,some positive and some negative. some of these post are from some dang good archers too,maybe even a couple of vets too and some of these vets have been to hell and back,these vet`s could tell you a thing or two about manhood.


We have to cut 'ol Matthew some slack. From the sound of his comments he may be a kid or at least talks like a youngster.

Mathew, I have a drawer full of ASA state championship buckles and a stack of IBO state championships from unknown distance classes. Set them up anywhere, anytime, under any rules........ *Come and Get You Some*......if you can!


----------



## Tactical-N8 (Feb 14, 2016)

I know that a lot of people are enjoying the marked yardage shoots. But I personally think that judging yardage is a fun part of the 3D challenge for myself. I don't have a problem with someone shooting a known yardage class. I just hope that the unknown classes don't go away completely.


----------



## CamoQuest (Mar 3, 2012)

Alabamadog said:


> Unmarked, you can use a rangefinder on half the targets preselected first half or last. Open c class
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


In ASA, if you shoot a half known class, the first half is known distance, the last half unknown. Range finders allowed on 1st half, put them up on second half.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Pete53 said:


> > Mathew shame on you, manhood thing ? really ? there are some good comments without being cocky,some positive and some negative. some of these post are from some dang good archers too,maybe even a couple of vets too and some of these vets have been to hell and back,these vet`s could tell you a thing or two about manhood.


He isn't being cocky, he is being flat-out ignorant.


----------



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

In all Honesty, Im glad this subject doesn't seem to go away....and this isn't the 1st thread on the 3D ying/yang debate in the last several months.


----------



## MQ5BPilot (May 12, 2017)

Unknown range, marked scoring zones is my preference.


----------



## rbtireauto (May 4, 2017)

Who cares, I just love to shoot any day shooting is better than not, 48 degrees and raining here today to no shooting puts me in a rough mood.


----------



## Fletch125 (Jun 13, 2012)

Known for me. This is my first year shooting it, and honestly I forget to range it quite often out of habit. What I do like about known yardage is that if I miss high/low it was a form flaw/bad execution

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

KeTech said:


> The point of 3D is to simulate a game hunting experience, otherwise shoot spots; unknown and no markings, everything else is just plain silly.


I'm glad we have a choice... choose to shoot unknown if you would like but don't limit archery by limiting your shooters. 

Since your so opposed to known distance 3d I assume you don't use a rangefinder when hunting either, or pre mark yardage trees in your area, because you know, you have to simulate the hunting experience.


----------



## Methodman (Feb 15, 2015)

my area just added a range finder class to the 3d courses. I find it interesting that the guys guessing, seem to score higher than the range finder class. The "rangers" shoot farther by a bit, but nothing extreme. Several explanations I suppose. To each his own. I hunt with a range finder, but at times I need to my spur of the moment decisions.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Methodman said:


> my area just added a range finder class to the 3d courses. I find it interesting that the guys guessing, seem to score higher than the range finder class. The "rangers" shoot farther by a bit, but nothing extreme. Several explanations I suppose. To each his own. I hunt with a range finder, but at times I need to my spur of the moment decisions.


There a few factual reasons. 
- The guys that have been shooting 3D for a while are in the unknown distance classes and they know the targets. Knowing the targets adds points to your score. 
- Many archers that jump into a known distance class are already struggling to compete in 3D in general and/or they are novice archers.
- The number *one* reason? The added pressure of "knowing the yardage" causes many archers to not shoot their best and/or they over estimate their skill level and attempt shots at the 12 ring when they shouldn't. Few 3D'ers realize this and it really screws with their ability to perform.

* There are ASA classes that shoot one 20 target course known distance and the second course they "guess" yardage. There are many archers that will score better on the "unknown" distance course. The only real reason for this is that they put more pressure on themselves to perform at a higher level when they "know" the yardage than when they are judging yardage. They do not handle this additional pressure well and their ability to shoot soundly deteriorates. Too many of these archers refuse to admit that admit the truth and will struggle to ever consistently finish near the top.

Of course the guys that are the very best in these half and half classes typically do better on the known distance part than on the judging half. BUT some guys are so good at judging, shooting and competing that their scores at times are pretty much the same for both games. 

Levi Morgan is arguably the best 3D'er in the last 10 years or so. He can shoot with the best spot shooters. Dan McCarthy is a great 3D'er and he can hit spots with the best. The best unknown yardage 3D'ers would be competing for the top spots in the Pro Known class.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

at our local 3d ranges and my age now of 64 years of age with poorer eye sight now days ,I just enjoy known 3d much more with my range finder and binoculars, I always shoot better known 3d too,besides when I shoot known 3d I am much harder on those young guys arrows if their arrow is in the 12 ring too! he-haw I bet mr. Kstigall understands ??


----------



## harley (May 20, 2006)

I like the challenge of unmarked but marked is less stressful.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

harley said:


> I like the challenge of unmarked but marked is less stressful.


Not for some people! That is why they shoot lower scores in marked than unmarked.


----------

