# Tuning Forks Prototype



## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

But when viewed with Tuning Forks, we're considerably off:

















This looks to be spot-on:









This time we're close, but could still be improved.














​
Odds and Ends

_Is alignment the the archery Holy Grail?_ No. That would be consistent shooting and lots of practice. But alignment is the foundation of bow tuning and maintenance. Tuning Forks make the alignment process easier and more accurate.

_What about the riser plane?_ The limb plane may or may not coincide with the center of the riser. The part of the riser we really care about is the grip center/pressure point. If that doesn't fall inline with the limb plane, you have two options: alter the grip or physically alter the limbs.

_Tuning Forks are dependent on limb clear coats, how accurate can that be?_ Surprisingly! From $100 limbs to $600 limbs, the finish on limbs is remarkably consistent. The only place I've found deviation is the thickest section of the limb near the limb pocket - more on that at a later time.

_Can I do the same thing with mirror chips or reflective contact paper attached to the limbs?_ Partially. You can use those methods to evaluate plane alignment for one point on one limb at a time. Tuning Forks allow you to see the limb plane on both limbs from practically any angle. They also play a key role in the alignment process that I’ll elaborate on later.​


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

It appears that someone's finally gotten it right.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well done.


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## frankenarcher (Aug 18, 2015)

Are you selling this? Looking for beta testers? I would be interested in either option.


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## DarkLightStar (Apr 7, 2016)

Absolutely brilliant. I can't tell you how many times I've thought that the limbs looked great, only to try and align them to the supposed center of the riser (not all risers have parallel parts to measure from). If this solves that....absolutely brilliant.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

Love it. What are your plans with it? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm so glad I won't have to sell my snake oil here anymore.

T.M.D. Snake Oil. 
"Real snakes in every bottle."


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## curisu (Nov 30, 2015)

looking forward to more info!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sold!


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## tenshooter (Sep 17, 2013)

Excellent. Would also be interested in testing or sale.

Look forward to your next informational post.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Looks good. Interesting approach for attaching the forks to the limbs. Can't wait to see this in action.


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Your original design have teeth similar to Beiter alignment tool but your new design does not have the teeth. If my limb is narrower than the bottom part of your tuning fork, how do I make sure that the tool is setting in correctly? Thanks


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for all of the support! I've been working on this for so long, it's nice to see people are interested. I'm working on creating more prototypes, so hang in there.



DarkLightStar said:


> I can't tell you how many times I've thought that the limbs looked great, only to try and align them to the supposed center of the riser (not all risers have parallel parts to measure from). If this solves that....absolutely brilliant.


It does!



TomG said:


> What are your plans with it?


I'm still evaluating the design, but I feel I'm close. At this point I want to get feedback and gauge interest as manufacturing is pretty expensive ($6-8K for an initial small run). No one is getting rich off of recurve, so more than anything, I wanted to create this to help other archers.



rambo-yambo said:


> Your original design have teeth similar to Beiter alignment tool but your new design does not have the teeth. If my limb is narrower than the bottom part of your tuning fork, how do I make sure that the tool is setting in correctly?


Good eyes! The current design doesn't have teeth because it doesn't need them. The "tine" design does a few neat things:

- They snap onto the limbs and automagically self-center
- They reference both the front and back limb surface
- They hold the Tuning Forks in place so they won't pop off, even if bumped

And to answer your question directly, they automatically adjust for varying limb width. 

Part of the feedback I'm still lacking is trying this on a wide selection of limbs. I've used them on many different makes and models but I don't, for example, have a pair of Uukha limbs to test on. That said, on all ILF/Formula limbs I've tried, they work from the limb pocket to the string groove (which is a larger range than you'll actually need).

My goal is to record a video this weekend to show them in action.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Excellent!
When you are ready to go to the market or need a couple testers. Desert Sky will take a couple!


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## frankenarcher (Aug 18, 2015)

I shoot Uukhas, would be happy to try them out for you :wink:


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## cekkmt (Nov 29, 2013)

I'd be interested in a pair.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Me too! I help run and coach a collegiate club here on the west coast and work with students from other clubs as well. I can run them through a fair number of bows and provide some feedback


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Another "I'm interested" here.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## KurlyArrow (Jan 17, 2016)

I would be happy to test these for you on some Sky TR-7 limbs.

What material are they made out of?
How much would you sell these for?
How can they go all the way to the string grooves? they look too tall.
And how can they "align accessories"?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

KurlyArrow said:


> What material are they made out of?
> How much would you sell these for?
> How can they go all the way to the string grooves? they look too tall.
> And how can they "align accessories"?


- This prototype is ABS-PC. The finals will likely be ABS-PC.
- Unsure of a price at this moment. I wouldn't know until I'm able to calculate all manufacturing costs. Competitive pricing with existing products is my goal. 
- They are indeed too tall to go up to the string groove while strung. To use them you don't need to go up that far though, I was just pointing out that they can accommodate a wide range of widths. 
- They won't directly align accessories for you, but you can use them to align accessories to the limb plane (like sight elevation bars and plungers for centershot). You can also evaluate whether your stabilizers align to the limb plane, if desired.


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## curisu (Nov 30, 2015)

I was thinking about how I would use these aligners and it occurred to me that i'd end up taping/clamping/banding some kind of dowel or straight-edge to each block to double-check my plane.

From the way I see it, these blocks would suffer the same issue that Beiter blocks do: in some cases where the limbs taper, they may not show the bow plane angle the entire length. The blocks can slightly rotate.

Is the prototype material flexible enough to account for the limb taper?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Cruisu, I'm trying to imagine what you're describing.

Do you mean the bend of the recurve or the more pronounced narrowing of the limb around the string groove?

If you mean the narrowing near the string groove, yes there is enough torsional flexibility to hug the angle of all the limbs I've used. Be aware that under normal use cases a Tuning Fork will never get near the extreme taper though. Hopefully my attempt at showing these in action this weekend will help.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Maybe its just me but i can't see what the photos are trying to demonstrate.
In the pictures using the beiter gauges the string runs through the riser centre but the comparison pictures are taken at a different angle/perspective.
This makes it difficult to see what these gauges are actually highlighting.


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Build them and we will buy!.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

toj said:


> In the pictures using the beiter gauges the string runs through the riser centre but the comparison pictures are taken at a different angle/perspective.
> This makes it difficult to see what these gauges are actually highlighting.


I haven't explained how these work so the confusion is understandable.

The important thing to know with Tuning Forks is that you don't use the riser at all for determining alignment. You don't even need to look at the riser. The way you perform a quick alignment check is to look at a Tuning Fork from above (or above-ish). What you're looking for is the white stripes on either side of the top stem. When you can see equal amounts of white on either side, your eye is inline with the plane for that particular point (the top stem will block your vision of one of the white stripes if your eye is out of plane).

From this angle, the camera is inline with the limb plane for that particular point (notice equal white on either side of the top stem):









Also notice that we can determine that the string is out of plane with the limb without seeing the riser!

This wider view shows that the camera is inline with the limb plane (you can see equal white on both Tuning Forks), but the string is not (otherwise the string would be centered between the white stripes/top stem):









Now that you can see that this bow needs adjustment, the next step is using the Tuning Forks to perform the adjustment. I'll go over that soon!


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

Are you going to 3D print these?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ranger 50 said:


> Are you going to 3D print these?


The prototypes are 3D printed in ABS-PC via FDM. The finals will be injection molded in ABS-PC. 

The cost to produce them to an acceptable quality via 3D printing is prohibitively expensive per pair.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

kshet26 said:


> At this point I want to get feedback and gauge interest as manufacturing is pretty expensive ($6-8K for an initial small run).


Have you thought about looking in to a room temperature castable resins with similar properties to ABS? 
Start up costs should be a lot lower( no super expensive machined steel molds needed).


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I considered it and did some tests, the tolerances needed for this is pretty high and I wasn't confident that I could achieve them using silicone molds or rotational casting. I'm open to it though as long as tolerances and quality levels are met.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

toj said:


> Maybe its just me but i can't see what the photos are trying to demonstrate.
> In the pictures using the beiter gauges the string runs through the riser centre but the comparison pictures are taken at a different angle/perspective.
> This makes it difficult to see what these gauges are actually highlighting.


At any chosen spot on the limbs, this device indicates the middle plane of an infinite number of perpendicular planes on the limb, which is where you want your string to lie in. That one plane. A twisted pair of limbs (or an in appropriately set left/right limb setting of the riser) will have no such plane, because as you move the device up or down along the limb, the red indicator moves left/right with respect to the string.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Yup! That's a good explaination!


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

Except limb profiles are sanded and not necessarily inline where ILF and nock are concerned. You will find the center of the limb in that location, but not necessarily the central plane of the limb. This device fails the same as the beiter in that respect.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

kenn1320 said:


> Except limb profiles are sanded and not necessarily inline where ILF and nock are concerned. You will find the center of the limb in that location, but not necessarily the central plane of the limb. This device fails the same as the beiter in that respect.


Can you elaborate further?


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## paper shooter 2 (Jun 30, 2016)

kenn1320 is on to something.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm not sure what aspect of the limb kenn1320 is defining as the profile.


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## paper shooter 2 (Jun 30, 2016)

Centerline of the ILF button to centerline of were the string comes off the tip. Everything outside of that is a crapshoot. I am a tool maker with some pretty snazzy measuring equipment. I have measured SF and Kaya limbs. They are all over the place outside of the 2 driving features I mentioned. I am working on tooling right now that will help with bow alignment. John Magera's method is pretty good for no money, just a little time.


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## DarkLightStar (Apr 7, 2016)

I think it's a great idea, kshet26. The possible solution to some of the concerns raised is to slide the tuners along the length of the limb and see if the plane still holds true. Like many aspects of this sport, it's labor-intensive if you really want to be a perfectionist. No harm in that. The same can be done with the Beiters or with a ruler. A little competition and out-of-the-box thinking is a great thing and I'd like to encourage you to keep doing that.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

OK. I get what you're saying. Again, my fault for jumping the gun and not posting how these are used. Yes, sliding the Tuning Forks is part of the process along with evaluating from the string groove to the limb pocket (and a few other things). You can even evaluate limbs for twist and tip offset without putting them on the bow. Again, I'll go over how to use them in detail with an upcoming video.

Couple of things:

- The "ILF button" matters on limb rebound and only then to a small degree (the string is mainly what keeps the limbs on the bow on the rebound). How the limb is drawn is important as it influences the arrow's initial velocity and for that, the ILF button doesn't need to be centered as the limb is flexing against the riser along the width of the limb. Most lateral limb adjustment systems can account for off-center ILF buttons. It's the non-adjustable element (limb fork when used on most risers) that ultimately sets where the string will end up in relation to the riser, and is also the reason why there can only be 1 optimal alignment setting.

- If we're being precise, if there are any non-symmetrical variation (differences in width, thickness, material density, glue adhesion, temperature, riser torque, etc) there will be an imbalance in the flex. No consumer-accessible solution will be able to completely identify the complexities of limb flex, but Tuning Forks are a good approximation- something that doesn't currently exist. The method for using them results in an average of the limb plane along most of the limb length, and includes some basic sanity-checks to ensure alignment.


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## piccoloj (May 22, 2016)

Looks like it improves on the Beiter system, or a ruler, by having lines (red and white) at different planes to line up the eye. Brilliant! I look forward to seeing the video.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

paper shooter 2 said:


> Centerline of the ILF button to centerline of were the string comes off the tip. Everything outside of that is a crapshoot.


I did a mental simulation flexing a pair of limbs with the ILF button totally off center, by about 1/4 inch.
Nope, negligible effects. Limbs still work fine, and there's a reason why.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

Look at this picture and ask yourself how the tuning fork would work on this limb. Granted our ILF limbs are not this far out, but you can bet the edges are not in all cases where the string tracks best when the limb is drawn back.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dlgren/media/Archery/Bows/snakeybow010-1.jpg.html
I get your theory on the tool, but these limbs are put in a jig and sanded to profile(sides), then the ilf fitting and nock grove is cut. My opinion that is backwards, but Im not a bowyer. The profile is irrelevant to the working of the limb. It can look like the snakey osage in the picture and still perform, so limb manufacturers dont give it much attention. Then consumers use that profile to adjust the limbs and when the string doesnt align in the grove properly or the tip opens off center cause the bow is now on plane, they say the limbs are junk. Maybe they are, maybe they arent. If the manufacturer put the ilf button and U slot in as the first step and held the limb location for all the additional machining, then you could trust the profile was symmetrical about the ilf alignment and the nock end. 
I even thought about a tool that screwed into the back side of the riser where the limb bolt goes through. That seems logical till you think about the machining tolerance and your taking for granted the hole projected to the string is precise and unfortunately its highly unlikely. When we tolerance a drawing of 2 items bolting together we have to specify a projected tolerance the thickness of the flange to ensure the parts would go together. Machines have tolerances and you cant assume because it was done on a fancy cnc that its perfect cause most arent. Look how many risers dont even have the stab hole centered, how hard can that be to get right you think? Its right till you put a 30" stab on it(projected tolerance) and see if you projected that machining out to 30" it can be way off. 
Nobody wants to hear it, but you have to look at the limbs as they roll out and set them up so they are correct. Compound guys adjust strings for cam lean, yet recurve guys ignore what the tip of the limb does as long as the string appears to look right at brace.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I guess everyone brews their own style of snake oil hahahahahahhaha


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for elaborating! This is helping me to talk this out.



kenn1320 said:


> The profile is irrelevant to the working of the limb.


I would argue that it is relevant. The profile in relation to where the force is being applied has a large effect on whether the limb will twist. 

These would definitely twist when drawn:
View attachment 4472026


The snake bow would be subject to torsional forces that increase as the "waves" get further from the centerline / line of force. It will bend, but it won't bend cleanly or efficiently. I've only come across one pair of limbs that has had an issue with profile (the taper of the limb wasn't symmetrical to the tip) which presented as a twist under load. Most substantial limb issues will present as "twisted" limbs under load when you're done. If you're making your own limbs, this tool probably won't be effective. But as consumers of mass produced equipment, we have the opportunity to replace limbs and risers. 

We simplify all of these issues by examining the limb under load in 2 initial locations, near the limb tip and near the limb pocket. Then we examine both limbs simultaneously at both locations. You can then evaluate the plane along the majority of length of the limb. You're also able to use a draw brace (like a wooden dowel cut to your draw length) to examine the plane under full load. When done, you've performed a comprehensive evaluation of the limbs in regards to their plane from string groove to string groove.

The simplified steps are:

1. Align a limb using X-Align method (I'll show you in the video what this means)
2. Align the other limb using X-Align method
3. Evaluate for twisted riser (fix possible with shims- decide to fix or replace)
4. Evaluate for twisted limbs (fix not feasible for most people- decide to replace or accept twisted limbs)

I'll admit I'm a nut about accuracy and perfection, sometimes at the expense of actually shooting. But we're not sending our bows to Mars. There is a threshold for "accurate enough". Are Tuning Forks accurate enough? I think so. But that's why I'm sending out prototypes- to see if they're easy to use and produce accurate results.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm quite bothered by the fact that there are some who are still adamant about using the riser as the sole determinant of an optimally aligned pair of limbs.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

I'll take a set when you are ready.


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

It's a question of tolerance. If I could get the alignment to within .01" I would be thrilled. This device coupled with the Mark I Human Eyeball should get me there. The human eye (when trained) can detect variations up to .001". For the price, sign me up. When 3D laser mapping becomes convenient and affordable, sign me up again. This tool removes the variable of sighting the string from an off center vantage point inducing error by moving the center line of the limb out to the string. Damn for the casual competitive archer this is gold. If you limbs are not symmetrical and vary more than .01", buy better limbs.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I haven't forgotten about the update post... creating concise directions for use is almost as intensive as designing the forks themselves. Almost there though. Once I have that in-hand I'll send out some prototypes.



Ranger 50 said:


> The human eye (when trained) can detect variations up to .001".


I've been able to detect twists as small as .005" which is equivalent to the thickness of a piece of heavy-duty aluminum foil.


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

I am an industrial designer. If you would like me to beta test, I'm happy to help.


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

I was following a similar line of thought for a design. Yours is much simplier than what I had in mind. I was going to machine alum billets, counter rotating screws, laser etched gauges, clear plexi sight windows above and below the string, telescoping rods and a sexy female interface voice through a bluetooth android device, "Your string is off .0195 mm to the North, love". Way too complicated and expensive. Your solution is clear and simple. I'd love to know the back story on why Bieter never took this step. The main key is to insure that the fork is self centering on the limb. Good luck with this.


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## curisu (Nov 30, 2015)

still interested. any updates for us?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Yes sorry! I've been tied up with family and work making this a slow process. I'm trying to finish a first pass at instructions, after which I'll send out a batch for further testing.

I'm trying to wrap it up this week. The Olympics is inspiring me get it done.


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

:Still hoping you need more testers


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Some people have asked for an update on this.

I've been making forward progress, albeit slowly. I've just completed a solid 1st pass at the manual (if you're curious you can see it here). And I've sent out a few sets for feedback.

The manual needs some polish (content and layout) and is missing some sections (like shimming and how to check for alignment at full draw). But I think it's a good foundation. It may seem like a complicated process based on the manual, but it really isn't. It's pretty intuitive for me, but I'm also the one who created it which is why I need outside feedback.


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

I'm still interested in providing any help I can give you..


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## Montalaar (Jan 26, 2008)

Very nice work so far,i am looking forward to your final product and manual. Could be a great help,seeing how easy and versatile it is to use!


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

The manual was nice and made sense. 
You should do a video too, if possible. 

Looking forward to buying some!


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Speaking as someone who writes instructional content for a living, that's one of the best archery-related manuals I've seen. Good job 

I've spotted a few typos here and there, although I haven't had time to do more than skim the document. Hope you don't mind my pointing them out.

Drop me a PM if you'd like a proper edit; perhaps we could come to an arrangement. If not, no bother, and I wish you every success!


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## Curiosum (Sep 23, 2016)

Shipping to EU?
:teeth:


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

ryan b. said:


> You should do a video too, if possible.


I actually started to do a video, but I realized I had some specifics I needed to figure out. Writing the manual helped with that, so a video will be coming at some point. It will probably be more useful than the manual.



John_K said:


> Speaking as someone who writes instructional content for a living, that's one of the best archery-related manuals I've seen. Good job
> 
> I've spotted a few typos here and there, although I haven't had time to do more than skim the document. Hope you don't mind my pointing them out.
> 
> Drop me a PM if you'd like a proper edit; perhaps we could come to an arrangement. If not, no bother, and I wish you every success!


I really appreciate that! I've put a lot of time and energy into this project - it's definitely a labor of love. Anything that improves the experience for the end user is a win. I'll PM you to talk further.



Curiosum said:


> Shipping to EU?
> :teeth:


Not yet, but I hope to make them available to the whole archery community in the near future.



whynotv2 said:


> I'm still interested in providing any help I can give you..


I'll PM you.


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

+1 for the EU.......they sound ideal!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> I'll PM you.


Looking forward to it.


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

I am interested in a set when the product is done.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Yep, I will take 2 sets as well.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Videos are great for instructional content, but too often people make very long videos. This is frustrating when you are just trying to find out how to do one thing.

So my advice would be to make a series of short videos about specific use cases for the tuning forks.


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## Montalaar (Jan 26, 2008)

Timrc said:


> +1 for the EU.......they sound ideal!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


same here!


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Any update?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Here's an update:

- Sent prototypes to a number of coaches and I've received very encouraging feedback. It works across all limbs tested and has helped users identify alignment issues with various setups. As of this moment, no further design changes are needed. I still have some work to do to simplify the instructions though. 
- I'm talking with a US manufacturer about cost and manufacturability.

I slowed down on this project while I made the jump to freelance for my day job. Now that the dust is clearing on that front, I'm pushing ahead with the Tuning Fork project.


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## Montalaar (Jan 26, 2008)

Good to hear and still interested!


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Thanks for the update!. I'm still in!. All Good!.


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## tvts (Jan 9, 2012)

As I said a while back, I am interested in helping test your theory.


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## GiulianoCini (Jun 27, 2016)

I am interested too and I am ready to buy.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for the continued interest everyone! I hope to have these ready soon.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Ready to buy also!


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

Same here and thanks for the updates.


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

Is there any update on this?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

Pretty please tell me that these are available for sale or beta test? I'm setting up a new bow for me and we have another indoor JOP/JOAD season starting at our club and I can only imagine the number of club bows that are out of whack (yikes)! Sign me up for a couple of pairs please!


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

Maggiemaebe said:


> Pretty please tell me that these are available for sale or beta test? I'm setting up a new bow for me and we have another indoor JOP/JOAD season starting at our club and I can only imagine the number of club bows that are out of whack (yikes)! Sign me up for a couple of pairs please!


Been waiting forever too lol


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

whynotv2 said:


> Been waiting forever too lol


This idea just makes sense on so many levels (plain old physics to the KISS rule and everything in between!) that I can't help but getting excited! I've been following this thread since I joined AT just because its appeal though I have never posted on it before. I can't wait and I'm glad that there are so many here with a similar appetite for common sense (turns out common sense is just about as rare as hens teeth)!


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Woah! Yeah, I've made a few changes to it since it's gone through testing by a number of members (hobbyist shooters to well-known coaches). Mostly changes to make it even easier for you guys to use. The roadblock is that I just don't have the $3000 available to do a 1st production run at the moment. The files are ready to be sent for manufacturing, materials have been chosen, 50% of the packaging is done... I'm just not liquid enough right now.

It seems like people dig the idea, but I'd need a better gauge of interest to see if I'd break even. Maybe a signup form? I want to avoid doing a Kickstarter...


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## Osiris155 (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm in.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I'd get at least two sets.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Anyone here game on an easy alternative? At least for the moment while you wait? Probably costs nothing.....


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

theminoritydude said:


> Anyone here game on an easy alternative? At least for the moment while you wait? Probably costs nothing.....


The mirror tacky paper? Definitely better than gauges/lines on tape.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Works for free on glossy limbs.


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## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

Count me in for a set.


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> Woah! Yeah, I've made a few changes to it since it's gone through testing by a number of members (hobbyist shooters to well-known coaches). Mostly changes to make it even easier for you guys to use. The roadblock is that I just don't have the $3000 available to do a 1st production run at the moment. The files are ready to be sent for manufacturing, materials have been chosen, 50% of the packaging is done... I'm just not liquid enough right now.
> 
> It seems like people dig the idea, but I'd need a better gauge of interest to see if I'd break even. Maybe a signup form? I want to avoid doing a Kickstarter...


Kickstarters are pretty cool though. Much more exposure thus easier to raise the capital!!!


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## liquidator4711 (Aug 4, 2016)

A kickstarter is also good in terms of presentation / commitment, easier to gauge real interested I would think.
(that being said, I would be interested)


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## BaconRocks (Sep 16, 2012)

A kickstarter could be a cool idea. I'd be in for a pair, I hate setting up bows so I'd love anything that made it easier.


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

I as well would be in for a pair.


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

+1 Kickstarter


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## 65690 (Jan 21, 2007)

Would like to obtain 2 sets. One for me and one for a friend as a gift.


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## Rotor (Nov 17, 2013)

+1 for a set. Kickstarter does seem like relatively efficient way to go.

Glenn


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

I would like a set as well.


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## MagneticLobster (Dec 24, 2012)

I'm ready to join this cult.

I'd be interested in 2 pairs.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

MagneticLobster said:


> I'm ready to join this cult.


:darkbeer:

Ok, ok! It seems like Kickstarter might be the best option here. Let me get my stuff together and I'll follow up on this.


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

I would certainly be interested in a couple of pairs.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Do you have a cost per unit estimate to the buyer? Are we talking $20 or $100?


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## adamstephens (Mar 5, 2012)

I'd be interested depending on cost......


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

archeryal said:


> Do you have a cost per unit estimate to the buyer? Are we talking $20 or $100?


The cost per set will be around the $29.


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## Rotor (Nov 17, 2013)

Very reasonable. Hope to see the Kickstarter site real soon!

Glenn


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

beiter alignment guage $8bucks..has worked for years. New Tuning fork alignment tool $30? how is this better than the old way of tuning (aligning) the bow?
Yes..really interested on the video please.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

the advantage of these is that the leg on the fork will considerably "amplify" minor misalignments with the limbs, which would not be visible with the Beiter gauges.

I'll be putting in my Kickstarter commitment as soon as it is available. $30 is a very reasonable price for a good tool.


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

I am in for a set .


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

Moi aussi...had to change up all of the 'me too's on here


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## Montalaar (Jan 26, 2008)

Me too!


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm working to get the Kickstarter campaign together. I'll update this thread when it goes live.

If you'd:

be interested in a set (or 2 or 3... especially those who have posted here already)
consider backing the project
like to be notified directly when the Kickstarter goes live
just like more info
Consider going here and dropping me your email:

www.gimmietuningforks.com​
Thanks to everyone for the confidence boost on this. Now to get it over the finish line...


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> I'm working to get the Kickstarter campaign together. I'll update this thread when it goes live.
> 
> If you'd:
> 
> ...


Signed up


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## Ryp (Mar 28, 2017)

Signed up as well. Thank you for putting in the hard work to get us better tools [emoji846]


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ryp said:


> Thank you for putting in the hard work to get us better tools


It's a tool that I made for myself, so I'm just happy if people find it half as useful as I do.


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## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

I'd like to suggest that you include some pictures and information on your sign-up page. I shared the page with my Facebook friends and included the link to this discussion thread. However, those that aren't already registered on ArcheryTalk (most of them) can't see the pictures.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

kevwill said:


> I'd like to suggest that you include some pictures and information on your sign-up page. I shared the page with my Facebook friends and included the link to this discussion thread. However, those that aren't already registered on ArcheryTalk (most of them) can't see the pictures.


That's a great idea. I forgot that people who aren't on AT can't see the pics and prob don't want to read through 5 pages of us talking.


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Signed up and still want/need two set's!. Thanks Again for Your Labors!.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Update: I'm cranking along on setting up a Kickstarter campaign for these.

I'm not a fan of hand-waving in marketing, so as part of the Kickstarter, I wanted to include some hard numbers on what having a well-aligned bow means. Earlier this week I hit the range and did some testing. Using the Tuning Forks to set up alignment (as compared to an-out-of-alignment bow) I found:

Primary benefit:
- less post-shot vibration, in testing up to 29% reduction in vibration (also a quieter bow, but this needs more testing)

Other benefit:
- less finger deflection, up to 15% reduction (needs more testing)*

So overall, the performance benefit is better lateral limb stability, which makes sense. Again if you're interested in finding out about the Kickstarter when it goes live, head over to http://www.gimmietuningforks.com/ to drop me your email address. I have a decent list going so far, so thanks everyone who's already signed up.



* In testing, I noticed something interesting. With the bow taken out of alignment, I saw an arrow speed increase of about .3% (insignificant for testing purposes) but I dug into the accelerometer data to figure out why. It appears the way the bow is "out of alignment" has an effect. 

When the bow is out of alignment with the string _too far inside_ (to the right for a RH archer), the string on release rolls off the fingers faster, but has high lateral deflection.

When the bow _is well-aligned_, the string deflects less, but moves a bit slower as it "pushes through" the fingers.

I have no testing data for when the bow is out of alignment _too far outside_ (to the left for a RH archer). theminoritydude has stated several times that be purposefully mis-aligns his bows to achieve a specific effect. If he's mis-aligning them to the outside it could be plausible that it's negating a small percentage of finger deflection while sacrificing some stability and vibration. More testing is needed.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Update on that misalignment:

With Hoyt's Pro Series dowel, from the perspective of the individual limbs, no misalignment occurs. But as soon as the string is drawn back, the string departs the "planes. At brace, the limbs are no longer in the same, common plane. As I have probably mentioned before, I don't use an armguard anymore. My brace height is 8 1/4", HP riser.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Because you're using the Pro Series dowels, does that mean you're using them to rotate the limbs around the vertical axis? Essentially shimming them both?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I believe you're the first one to be able to see that. You've always had a thing for spatial awareness, didn't you? We should exchange notes someday, I'm working on this limb pocket modification.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

kshet26 said:


> * In testing, I noticed something interesting. With the bow taken out of alignment, I saw an arrow speed increase of about .3% (insignificant for testing purposes) but I dug into the accelerometer data to figure out why. It appears the way the bow is "out of alignment" has an effect.
> 
> When the bow is out of alignment with the string _too far inside_ (to the right for a RH archer), the string on release rolls off the fingers faster, but has high lateral deflection.
> 
> When the bow _is well-aligned_, the string deflects less, but moves a bit slower as it "pushes through" the fingers.


Did you do the test with both cases “tuned”? Because that’s how they would have been reasonably expected to be used. If you hadn’t done that, what’s happening is this: on the setup with the string further right, the arrow’s release path aggregates more towards the left, a result of the string being spring loaded by the twist of the riser to the right. This leftward rebound gives it a slight advantage in terms of clearance from the plunger than the setup that has the string centered, which probably explains the slight loss in speed. If you repositioned your plunger, you may be able to register a higher speed than the other setup.


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## xantiema (Nov 4, 2017)

Sign me up for a pair


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Quick update:

If you'll be at Indoor Nationals in Fiskdale, MA this weekend, I'll have a demo table set up. Swing by to say hi and try out a prototype pair. 

Try them on your own gear after you're done shooting- ignorance is bliss during competition.

View attachment 6410317


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

kshet26 said:


> Quick update:
> 
> If you'll be at Indoor Nationals in Fiskdale, MA this weekend, I'll have a demo table set up. Swing by to say hi and try out a prototype pair.
> 
> ...


How did it go at Fiskdale?

Currently setting up my bow for the outdoor season, and checking alignment whilst trying to remove parallax![emoji23]

Which made me wonder if you had any updates?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

It went well! 60+ people stopped my table to check them out. Mostly coaches (aka bow caddies), some non-shooter parents (aka the sponsors), some adult athletes and a few kids. Everyone seemed to get the concept and that it was a pretty substantial improvement over available methods. Pretty happy about that! I also wanted to use the opportunity to get a sense of what info resonated with people so I could include it in the Kickstarter campaign. I even had the opportunity to throw them on a few athletes bows to show how far out of alignment they were. 

One gentleman who's been following the project for a while stopped by and gave me a well-deserved talking-to about getting these freaking things out the door. It was hard to hear but much appreciated.

For an update, I'm about to file a provisional patent application in the next few days (after Fiskdale it was clear I needed a little bit of a legal 'sword') and from there finish the Kickstarter campaign that I've been plugging away at. I've been crunching pretty hard for my day job for the past few months, so I've been relegated to finishing this project between the hours of 9pm-2am after the kiddo and wife have gone to bed. 

I'm doing my damnedest to get this done ASAP. I don't want to lose this critical window while people are thinking about outdoor.


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

Thanks for that.

Glad to hear you have had such positive feedback.

I appreciate that you are doing this outside of work and family commitments, so was in two minds as to whether to ask as to an update!

I am sold on the idea, which should make alignment so much easier. So, happy to wait.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I wish I was speedier for you guys! I don't like dragging things out and not hitting dates that I set, but it's slow going with just me! Makes me appreciate how many people are needed to get things made. 

Besides the PPA, I've also been pestering vendors and manufacturers for accurate quotes, making design revisions, doing material tests, roughing out scripts, taking product shots, designing packaging, designing the KS campaign, etc. I see the light at the end of the tunnel though!


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

kshet26 said:


> I wish I was speedier for you guys! I don't like dragging things out and not hitting dates that I set, but it's slow going with just me! Makes me appreciate how many people are needed to get things made.
> 
> Besides the PPA, I've also been pestering vendors and manufacturers for accurate quotes, making design revisions, doing material tests, roughing out scripts, taking product shots, designing packaging, designing the KS campaign, etc. I see the light at the end of the tunnel though!


Keep your chin up Keith!

I can't wait to hold a pair of these babies and try them out for the first time to see how badly I've got things set up too ! I'm subscribed to the kickstarter campaign already but wanted to give you a pat on the back for your work already done on this too!

Please don't give up on this one as I think it'll really be an eye opener for many of us. Best, j


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## wjtran (Feb 12, 2018)

Looks cool!


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## Chunq (Mar 2, 2018)

Just popping in to say I'll be in for one, would support the worthy kickstarter, interested in buying even preproduction model, etc.

In the meantime, I'm going to try and modify my beiter blocks using glue and some stiff plane.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Yeah you can give that a shot!

Also, Tuning Forks are now officially patent pending so it's time to finish the Kickstarter, weee!!


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

kshet26 said:


> Yeah you can give that a shot!
> 
> Also, Tuning Forks are now officially patent pending so it's time to finish the Kickstarter, weee!!


Hooray, I know it’s been a long road so far for you but it worth it. Ever since you announced these I have been waiting ever so eagerly for their release.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for following along and the eternal patience. Almost there!


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## curisu (Nov 30, 2015)

Awesome. I've purchased everything Beiter makes in regards to bow planing (even their silly "Beiter Brace").

Can't wait for the KS to launch!


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## liquidator4711 (Aug 4, 2016)

So, soon now...?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ha. The project that just won't end! Shot the short overview video last weekend, still needs editing though. The KS page itself is 70% done.

I'm ready for this project to be done.


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## liquidator4711 (Aug 4, 2016)

Cool! Looking forward, truly!


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

Good news.


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## whynotv2 (Oct 5, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> Ha. The project that just won't end! Shot the short overview video last weekend, still needs editing though. The KS page itself is 70% done.
> 
> I'm ready for this project to be done.


It seems like it's been 2 years already! At the current rate, I'm guessing the launch will be the anniversary of the thread which would be a good thing actually. 

*cue dramatic music* 

*black screen with music and voice over*

Dramatic Announcer: Are you tired of this?

*brief flash of a bow followed by an arrow in flight...black screen and the arrow missing the mark...black screen*

Dramatic Announcer: When you're trying for this?

*brief flash of a bow followed by an arrow in flight...black screen and the arrow hits the ten ring followed by a rapid succession of another half dozen arrows all in the yellow...black screen*

Dramatic Announcer: It's been two years in the making and now it's here.

*full screen of the tuning forks and an archer setting up his/her bow and some other voice over/text information.*

You get the *clears out my dramatic announcer voice* You get the idea


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Haha. My day job is cutting trailers so... maybe? :wink:

Looking at the date on this thread... says June 27th. I'm not going to push it back that far.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Update:

The Kickstarter is going live on Tuesday, May 29th at 12:01am EST!

To comply with forum rules I've started a post about it here: 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5447261

Also, if you want to sign up to get a reminder email on Tuesday, you can still head over to gimmietuningforks.com and drop me your email address.

I'll also follow-up here with a link when the KS is live.

Thanks for the kind words, patience, and the kicks in the butt to get this over the finish line.


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

Congratulations on getting to this point. Looking forward to getting one!


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

Excellent news!


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Thank You!, I can't wait!. Really looking forward to finding out how my machinery checks out?.


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

Got the email last night. Big thumbs up.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Update: as I've mentioned in the email and the manufacturer's forum post, the project is still sitting in the Kickstarter approvals queue. So this definitely won't happen tomorrow. Sigh... I have no date at the moment, but I'm crossing my fingers for sometime in the next week.


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## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

Supporter #1

Edit: At least I thought I was. When I completed the process and refreshed the screen, the number of supporters went from 0 to 1. However, the confirmation email said I was Supporter 2.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ha thanks Kev!

Tuning Forks are now live on Kickstarter!

I'm not sure if I can start a new thread specifically about the launch here in FITA, but in the mean time if you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them here or on the Kickstarter page itself.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I’m so glad, eventually I won’t have to think about what to say to those guys with a pair of Beiter limb line gauges each, that they might as well have bought a whiteboard marker and a plastic rule.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

kshet26 said:


> Ha thanks Kev!
> 
> Tuning Forks are now live on Kickstarter!
> 
> I'm not sure if I can start a new thread specifically about the launch here in FITA, but in the mean time if you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them here or on the Kickstarter page itself.


Backed and shared on Facebook. Good luck. I hope it gets funded.


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## liquidator4711 (Aug 4, 2016)

Backed!


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## Timrc (May 14, 2015)

Backed!

Who are you planning on using to ship abroad to the UK?

Items received via the US postal service to Royal Mail incur much less handling charges than UPS for example.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone!

I'll be using USPS for all shipping. Right now they are by far the most economical method for domestic and international shipments. It might take a little longer to reach you, but it also wont cost you more than the item to ship!


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Backed - it is great - can’t wait!


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## luckman88 (Nov 11, 2017)

Backed as well. Good luck!


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## phencer (Jun 22, 2017)

Backed! Thanks for your efforts!


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

Backed as well. Thank you!!


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## ugeiger (Jun 14, 2011)

Backed it as well.


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## derpa-fox (Jan 18, 2015)

So excited for this! Backed!


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## linga115 (Feb 24, 2013)

Backer #43

Keep up the good work!


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Whoa, it's been a good morning! Running on a mix of 3 hours of sleep, coffee and adrenaline but definitely worth it.


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Pledged, Many Thanks Keith!.


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

Got your back. Made my pledge good luck.


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## VAtiger (Dec 15, 2016)

...and another backer; best of luck, Keith!


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

Backed........ first time ever I participated in a Kickstarter program


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

JimDE said:


> Backed........ first time ever I participated in a Kickstarter program


Thanks! And you're not alone. This is the 1st Kickstarter for almost 60% of the backers so far.


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## Chunq (Mar 2, 2018)

Grabbed the last $29 pledge. Mwahaha.

Though I don't know how that'll work out. I personally think $40 with shipping is a price point that is just on the upper edge of acceptable for the tool. It is acceptable, but I also compare it to buying a fancy AAE micro clicker, a bunch of spin wings, or about half of an Axcel Curve. Which isn't fair since those are all established products, but that's how it is.

This will probably be a conversation piece at clubs.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

The biggest driver of price is the small size of the production run. The goal of $16200 is really just to break even for a minimum order + shipping to backers.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I looked at the distribution of interest across the different Earlybird rewards and reallocated a number from the 3x set tier to the 1x set tier. So there are now 30 more 1x sets available.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm in for two of them. I don't know that everyone needs one: A few of them at your local club where you can borrow one should be sufficient. That said, I'm waiting for mine to arrive. 

Beiter blocks, bow squares and my eyeballs provided a really frustrating experience and I was never sure I'd gotten it right.


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## Osiris155 (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm in for 2X. Can't wait.


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## PEZELP (Dec 10, 2017)

Pledged support for 2x. Hoping you get the remaining support needed.


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## xantiema (Nov 4, 2017)

Joined in as early bird for 2 pieces. Been looking forward to this ever since the early development, can't wait to try it out!


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Backer #84 here.


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## Montalaar (Jan 26, 2008)

I think this post needs a bump up. Great project but it still needs funding!


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

Montalaar said:


> I think this post needs a bump up. Great project but it still needs funding!


Is there a place to go with some technical details so we don't have to dig through this fairly long thread to uncover the information?
THAT would be helpful to bump the interest level.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

rkumetz said:


> Is there a place to go with some technical details so we don't have to dig through this fairly long thread to uncover the information?
> THAT would be helpful to bump the interest level.


What kind of into are you looking for? I should probably start a new thread for the Kickstarter and I can include any info you think would be important.


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

kshet26 said:


> What kind of into are you looking for? I should probably start a new thread for the Kickstarter and I can include any info you think would be important.


At this point I assume you have a working prototype so I would take a couple of photos and create a sort of datasheet for what it is and how it works. Summarize the product so that
people don't need to figure it out on their own and you will get more people excited about it faster. Also what is the link to your kickstarter?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I get what you're saying. That info is in a couple of different places but it would be worth putting it in it's own thread here. I thought that it might be kind of spammy, but it looks like people want that info. 

On it.

The link is:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/earlyhuman/archery-tuning-forks-tools-for-better-bow-alignmen


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

What can this do that a Beiter block cannot accomplish? Seems all it does is extend the viewing reference rather than keep it on a flat surface like the Beiter. Also, in the pictures between the Beiter block showing a vs comparison, the strings are centered in the Beiter. However,the tuning fork comparison image showing the strings are offset from the tiller bolt sockets suggesting either the bow or camera is tilted, skewing the view for the comparison. Looks like both items do the exact same thing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tunedlow,

Beiter blocks can tell you if your limbs are in line with one another, but they cannot help you reference the string plane alignment with the riser. It is common for people to have both limbs aligned, but not have then in line with the plane of the riser. So in effect, they are shooting their arrow across the plane, introducing torque into the system on every shot.

Now, as Vittorio points out, limbs can have different planes throughout their draw cycle. There is a way to test for this, by having a draw stop (I use a piece of old closet rod with "U" notches in either end) of different lengths, but at a minimum people should test for their string being on plane at brace. It is simple to do (simpler with these tuning forks) and simple to adjust with the same adjustments you use to get the limbs in line with one another.

Beiter blocks are a good visual alignment aid, but these are better. Think of these as the "Astra shot trainer" of the formaster world. Some folks (like me) still prefer the original formaster, but many find the Astra to be an improvement on the design. Same is true with these tuning forks vs. the original Beiter blocks.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks John!

Tuning Forks do a few things differently:

1 - They let the limbs and only the limbs dictate the center (I call it being Limbcentric). They aren't dependent on riser features or surfaces. Bolt holes and flat spots on the riser don't necessarily correspond to the limb center. With Tuning Forks you're aligning the string to the limb plane itself.






​
2 - Because they provide their own reference in 3D they're largely independent indicators of center. Blocks are subject to the closed-loop nature of the bow and errors due to parallax (the apparent change in position in relation to a moving reference). Some examples of why that's a problem: a limb might be in the correct position, but look off because the other limb is pulling the string. Not knowing which limb to adjust first. Getting stuck in an adjustment cycle where you run out of adjustablility and have to start over. With Tuning Forks you can get the limbs aligned together from tip-to-tip with a process I call XAlign ('cus it makes the shape of an 'X'). You align the top of one fork to the bottom of the other and vice versa. 






​
3 - Because they're 3D you can evaluate risers and limbs for twist after the initial setup process is complete. You can also setup accessories like the long stabilizer to the limb plane.​
That early set of pictures isn't particularly exemplary. But it's showing that with blocks, the setup looks correct, but is probably off for that bow. 

Here's some newer examples:









This shows that with Tuning Forks the alignment is spot on (string runs the center of both Tuning Forks from bottom to top), but if you look closely it doesn't correspond perfectly with the bolt holes (the right hole is close but certainly off). If I were to have tried to use the bolt holes, the alignment for this bow would be off.










And this is an example of a twist. It looks fine near the limb surface (as indicated by the block), but projected out, you can clearly see the twist. Here it is in motion:






​


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Archers range on a scale from "equipment isn't that important - the archer is what matters" to "every single detail matters - I can't shoot well if I don't know my gear is perfect"

As a person finds themselves leaning further to the latter, they will find more use for a tool like this one. The former, less so.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I definitely agree, John. Getting obsessively critical isn't my goal. My hope is that this tool leads to less confusion and frustration, and more time shooting. I even say as much on the page:


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm going to retire this thread as we're now in the Kickstarter phase. To continue the conversation, head over to the new thread:

*[url]http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5454285*[/URL]

To everyone that's followed, commented, and shared this thread over the last couple of years, thank you so much. :cheers:


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