# What is possible with a lightweight recurve (a.k.a. - thank you Carbon Express)



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

By now, everyone should at least have heard about Denise Parker's legendary 28# bow that she used to win Bronze in Seoul in '88. I've used that example more times than I can count when someone tells me they HAVE to shoot more weight, or their arrows are too heavy, etc., etc.

But for a more present-day example of what one can achieve with the lightest of equipment, I submit one of my JOAD students - a female recurve Bowman (11) who I challenged at our last pin shoot to attempt 40 meters, and then 50 meters.

I knew she would struggle to reach both distances, but she earned her 40M pin (black) easily on her first try. Then, I challenged her to shoot 50M next, and despite having to aim OVER the flag, she earned her pin (blue) by four points on her first try.

Today, I had her at the house to work on equipment and check her tune. When I put her bow on my scale, it read (are you ready???) only *16 lbs. at 24.5" draw !!!*

Her performance was possible, primarily, due to her incredible work ethic and fantastic technique, but I have to also give a great deal of credit to Carbon Express for recognizing and meeting the needs of archers like her with their Medallion XR line that spines all the way down to 2000! Her arrows, with 60 grain points, weigh just over 200 grains total weight, and that's with pin adapters and pin nocks. 

My own daughter earned her red outdoor pin with the 2000 spine XR's on her very first try after switching from Jazz 1214's last year. She was shooting 20 lbs. at 25" then.

But if you had told me an 11 year old female recurve archer would be able to earn her first 50M pin with just 16.5 lbs. at 24.5" I'm not sure I would have believed that until I saw it with my own eyes.

So, for all you out there, young and old alike, I post this as inspiration. To show you what is possible, even with the lightest of draw weight and the lightest of arrows.

Don't ever let your equipment be your excuse. Shoot whatever you have with the confidence of a champion.

John


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

That's awesome. I can't wait for my recurve to get here.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Was it the stylish young lady with a lot of swagger?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Thank you John,

Congrats to your JOAD kid and your Daughter.

I will be printing this out and pointing a lot of people at this thread. They think I'm crazy when I tell them the same thing!

I just switched to carbon Impact 10/20's just to see what they would do and I can now reach 70M with out pulling my sight back at all. Again, 22lb Rolan.

50M on a good day.. 8-10s. Granted I should try xr's to get the consistency (I have some, just need to fletch them up)

It's possible to shoot well with light weights! Spread the word!


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## SD40 (Dec 25, 2005)

Awesome!, Good on you John for helping her succeed. Also kudos to Carbon Express, without our youth there is no future.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Yesterday just playing with the "22lb teaching rig" I decided to start finding out just how much range I could get with this bow and carbon Impacts super clubs which are closer to the correct spine for my bow.
This was 60M shooting my 22lb bow 80cm target..







Now if I could just do this all day... (like I'm sure limbwalker and maybe his JOAD kid can do) I'd be really happy. I can do this maybe 3 ends out of 10 (for now).


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## noobcaheo (Jun 15, 2011)

carbon Impacts super clubs are good, I shot the 20/30 with 28lbs and hit yellows at 50m


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Don't ever let your equipment be your excuse. Shoot whatever you have with the confidence of a champion.
> 
> John


Inspirational and a great post John. Great technique and appropriate arrows can give fantastic (and unexpected) results. We shouldn't have low expectations. Such a pity so many UK clubs ban all-carbon arrows....


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## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

This thread is making me think I might be able to shoot some 50-70m with current setup....haven't tried anything past 30m yet.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

SonnyJ said:


> This thread is making me think I might be able to shoot some 50-70m with current setup....haven't tried anything past 30m yet.


Definitely worth trying. I can manage 70m with 22-24# limbs and I use 1300 Accs with 70gr points. Groups could be better, but that isn't the kit.... I can generally manage 475 - 520 :/


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan, that's awesome man. Yea, those Super Club's (esp. the 10/20's) are unbelievably light arrows too. About half my JOAD kids use those, and the other half use the Medallion XR's from 1500-2000 spine.

IIRC, the Super Club 10/20's spine around 1200 or 1300, which would work for someone pulling 25-26# at 27" length.

My daughter shoots 1500 XR's at 24# and 27" length.

1800 XR's work at 22# and 26" length.

2000's work best at 20# and 25-26" length.

Next little project of mine - I'm going to attempt to shoot a 320+ at 70 meters with a pair of $100 SF wood/glass limbs that I happen to have laying around. When I do, I'll post that up, complete with sight mark comparisons to my SKY double carbon/bamboo TR-7 limbs. 

We gotta get people to realize that you don't have to spend a ton of money to achieve great things in this sport.

John


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Are Super Club or Medallion compatible with ACE components (points, nocks) ? I shoot about 28 to 29#, what spine should I use for both arrows. ( I know spines varies from manufacturer to amnufacturer). Thanks,


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No, neither one are.

Also, how long an arrow are you going to shoot?


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks, John. My draw length is about 26-1/2" so arrow length should be about 27" or longer (or can be longer since I am shooting barebow). Thanks,



limbwalker said:


> No, neither one are.
> 
> Also, how long an arrow are you going to shoot?


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

dchan said:


> Yesterday just playing with the "22lb teaching rig" I decided to start finding out just how much range I could get with this bow and carbon Impacts super clubs which are closer to the correct spine for my bow.
> This was 60M shooting my 22lb bow 80cm target..
> View attachment 1692301
> 
> Now if I could just do this all day... (like I'm sure limbwalker and maybe his JOAD kid can do) I'd be really happy. I can do this maybe 3 ends out of 10 (for now).


The lightest arrows out there are still the Carbon Tech McKinney II's. I noticed that the price dropped on Lancaster Archery -- but they seem to have quickly sold out of most of the spine values. I've seen youth archers locally shooting McKinney IIs with a very flat trajectory. My daughter's Nano Pros are pretty light, too -- just 5.3 grains per inch in 900 spine.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

HikerDave said:


> The lightest arrows out there are still the Carbon Tech McKinney II's. I noticed that the price dropped on Lancaster Archery -- but they seem to have quickly sold out of most of the spine values. I've seen youth archers locally shooting McKinney IIs with a very flat trajectory. My daughter's Nano Pros are pretty light, too -- just 5.3 grains per inch in 900 spine.


While CT McKinney II's and Nano pro's are light, Part of the experiment is to see if we "need" to spend that much money to shoot well.

a Doz McKinney's with components and assembly would cost more than the bow and arrows that I shot that group with.
a Doz Nano pros would cost almost 2x that If you opted for tool steel points add another 100ish.

John's and My point are that you don't have to spend a fortune. You don't need high poundage. 

If you have the money and want to have the latest and greatest that's fine. I just see too many kids or families that can't afford them. Then they sometimes feel they can't achieve anything if they don't have the fancy bow with vbar/stabilizer, ILF rig with a $200+ sight and 250.00 arrows perfectly tuned to their bow. I think John's point is it can be done without all that fancy stuff. I agree and am trying to also prove that point.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> We gotta get people to realize that you don't have to spend a ton of money to achieve great things in this sport.
> 
> John


Amen to that.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Careful, if you do that they will raise the prices of the low-end stuff. There was already a 30% increase recently in the SF Carbon Premiums. (No conspiracy theorist here ;-)


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Also McKinney II's and Nano pros as well as Nano XR's bottom out at about 1000 spine. The Carbon Express website does not even show a 900 in the Nano pro. You must be thinking Nano XR which go to 1100.

Shooting these light weight bows, in order to get close to a good tune, you often need to get into the 1300+ spine range


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Next little project of mine - I'm going to attempt to shoot a 320+ at 70 meters with a pair of $100 SF wood/glass limbs that I happen to have laying around.


That should be entirely doable. While my PB is a ways below that, I have shot all of my current PBs with an old pair of KAP Challenger Carbons, including a 302 at 70m. They aren't amazing limbs, but they get the job done, and there's no "need" for nicer limbs.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

dchan said:


> Also McKinney II's and Nano pros as well as Nano XR's bottom out at about 1000 spine. The Carbon Express website does not even show a 900 in the Nano pro. You must be thinking Nano XR which go to 1100.
> 
> Shooting these light weight bows, in order to get close to a good tune, you often need to get into the 1300+ spine range


Carbon Express had the nano pro down to 900 but dropped the lighter sizes when they introduced the nano extreme and nano sst. Unfortunately, for the same dynamic spine the nano pro extremes and sst's weigh a bit more. Lancaster still has 800 nano pros in stock but no more 900s. (I checked because I wanted to grab another set while they were still in the pipeline.) In my opinion, the nano pro's are a very good value because of their durability. Those things are tough.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rambo-yambo said:


> Thanks, John. My draw length is about 26-1/2" so arrow length should be about 27" or longer (or can be longer since I am shooting barebow). Thanks,


Those are the same spec's as one of my students, and she shoots 1000 spine arrows at 27". So, probably a 1000 or 1100 spine Medallion XR (depending on point weight) or a 15/25 Carbon Impact Super Club would get you very close.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

You don't even need to be a kid to enjoy this. I am 55 and I shoot 26# sf limbs on a 70" bow with CI SC 15/25s @29" and they fly nicely and get to 60 yds with an inch and a half of sight left. If you have injuries or other problems these light weight bows will get you out there shooting. I can shoot most tournament distances with mine so you are not limited to just backyard practice either. My bow with sight, stabilizer, arrows and everything else needed to shoot was less than $600 and I'm sure its capable of shooting better than me for quite some time.


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

How does Carbon one compare to Super Club and Medallion, their prices are similar.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Prices are not similar for the Super Club vs. Carbon One or Medallion XR. 

Super Clubs are the most affordable by a longshot, because they COME WITH points and vanes and nocks. And they're cheaper even then.

Medallion XR's and Carbon One's are comparable, but I'd give the XR's the edge because they are MUCH skinnier in the 1300-2000 spines, they are AVAILABLE in those weaker spines, and they are more consistent.

I used to recommend Carbon One's quite a bit, but that was until I spun quite a few of my student's Carbon One's on my hand. They are anything but straight.


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

Not to hijack a great thread, but to avoid starting yet another "What arrow should I get" thread, what would be the Medallion XR recommendation for the following? I suppose another way to ask this question is, "How far off is the Carbon Express chart?"

Draw Length (arrow length) 28"
Draw Weight 26#
Long limbs (70")

I'll be going up to 26# soon, and I'm thinking of upgrading to better arrows at the same time. Thanks in advance!


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

I'm having good results shooting 29" arrows(shafts) in the .950 to 1.050 spine range with a 70" 26# bow. Good bare shafts and walk back tuning. 
Disclaimer: I'm no expert.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed. Something around 1000 spine.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Topquark said:


> Not to hijack a great thread, but to avoid starting yet another "What arrow should I get" thread, what would be the Medallion XR recommendation for the following? I suppose another way to ask this question is, "How far off is the Carbon Express chart?"
> 
> Draw Length (arrow length) 28"
> Draw Weight 26#
> ...


You want the new limbwalker-approved chart as updated on their web site -- not last years. 900 spine Carbon Ones and 900 spin Nano Pros with 110 grain points work well on my daughter's bow with 29 inch draw and slightly longer arrows so I'll add another vote to the 1000 spine recommendation. I can get a 29 inch Carbon One 1000 arrow to tune at 24 pounds on my HPX with my daughter's old limbs. Taking an inch off will get you another 3 pounds or so. I'm not recommending Carbon Ones -- it's just that they have similar grains per inch and so will have similar dynamic spine.


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## RKu (Nov 16, 2012)

Is there a way to have this thread posted in the top section? This incredibly valuable information and there are many who use this forum who will not have the knowledge of former archers, technique, and equipment like Limbwalker and the other elite archers. As a newer shooter, I would have benefited greatly from this. At least, my son will benefit!


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

Topquark said:


> Not to hijack a great thread, but to avoid starting yet another "What arrow should I get" thread, what would be the Medallion XR recommendation for the following? I suppose another way to ask this question is, "How far off is the Carbon Express chart?"
> 
> Draw Length (arrow length) 28"
> Draw Weight 26#
> ...


Don't you already have some CI SC 15/25 shafts. Those are around .950 spine. Why don't you shoot those and see how it goes.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

hooktonboy said:


> <snip>. Such a pity so many UK clubs ban all-carbon arrows....


Wow! Really? Without wanting to derail the thread, I'm going to look that up. Just wow! Before I look, I'll wager it's something to do with health and safety... It's an obsession over there. 

Great thread, John. Very inspiring.


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## Hook'em79 (Nov 20, 2009)

I agree this is a very useful thread! 
John,
"IIRC, the Super Club 10/20's spine around 1200 or 1300, which would work for someone pulling 25-26# at 27" length.

My daughter shoots 1500 XR's at 24# and 27" length.

1800 XR's work at 22# and 26" length.

2000's work best at 20# and 25-26" length."

I have six JOADs nearing the point of changing from 1214's to MXR 2000's, but are still not up to 20#/25" DL. Did you say previously your daughter shot kurley vanes on her 1214's to increase her distance?

"Next little project of mine - I'm going to attempt to shoot a 320+ at 70 meters with a pair of $100 SF wood/glass limbs that I happen to have laying around. When I do, I'll post that up, complete with sight mark comparisons to my SKY double carbon/bamboo TR-7 limbs. "

I think that would be a great demo at the next TOTS tournament! You didn't say what #, but I will offer some 18# Longs (SF Axiom +) you can use!


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> Wow! Really? Without wanting to derail the thread, I'm going to look that up. Just wow! Before I look, I'll wager it's something to do with health and safety... It's an obsession over there.


Yes, I guess it is, pretty much anyway. A large number of club outdoor ranges are school sports fields that are rented (evenings/weekends), so it's down to the risk of not finding lost arrows / the risk presented to field sports players by broken carbon bits. Fair enough really - I wouldn't like to find carbon splinters in my leg during a game of rugby either....
Not a problem for clubs that own their own facility, but there aren't that many of those.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

hooktonboy said:


> Yes, I guess it is, pretty much anyway. A large number of club outdoor ranges are school sports fields that are rented (evenings/weekends), so it's down to the risk of not finding lost arrows / the risk presented to field sports players by broken carbon bits. Fair enough really - I wouldn't like to find carbon splinters in my leg during a game of rugby either....
> Not a problem for clubs that own their own facility, but there aren't that many of those.


We've broken quite a few Carbon One arrows at Paseo Vista, because the range has finely crushed rock and the range itself has a caged-rock wall around it. (Arizona is basically a big pile of rocks and dust.) A Carbon One arrow does NOT leave debris on the range when it breaks, and I doubt that similar arrows like the Carbon Express Medallions and XR or McKinney II would, either.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

I concur. The daughter sent a C1 into the fence she was shooting right next to at Gator Cup and it broke into five or six distinct recoverable pieces with no sharp edges. Just our experience.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Never tried it but I wonder what happens to a carbon arrow after it's been trampled over by studs...........................


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that the most recent iterations of all-carbon construction arrows don't disintegrate in the way the older ones did, and that is good to know. It would be more about persuading primary and secondary schools that the risk to their pupils was significantly lower.


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

Thanks to all for replying! Life intervened, so I apologize for not checking back sooner.

I was guessing 1000 spine myself, so it's nice to see that I'm starting to align with the more wise...

wfocharlie, I do have some 15/25's, and I'll be shooting those before I fork out for the Medallion XR's. What I wasn't sure of was how different things are when you change arrow manufacturer.

Thanks again!


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

FYI I just put some bare shafts on the grain scale (XR's 1100 and XR's 1300) The 1100's are actually lighter mass weight than the 1300's.

Full length, (they are the same) with pins installed. No points..

XR-1100 = 140gn
XR1300 = 195gn

Points for the XR 1100's are adjustable from 60-110gn
The points for the XR 1300's I have not yet received (There's that back order problem again) but I suspect they are similar.

And FYI my set of XR's did come with the pins.


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## LittleJP (Nov 4, 2012)

You can see the gpi listen on the carbon express site.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

LittleJP said:


> You can see the gpi listen on the carbon express site.


Yep I know, but a lot of people will not check and just "assume" that the 1300 would be lighter than the 1100... Since I needed both spines (for our joad group) I just ordered both, knowing that they would be lighter than what we are currently using for some of our higher end shooters.

DC


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## gumibears (Jun 1, 2008)

By the sheer number of found X10s, ACEs, ACGs, Nano Pros at Nationals for the past 3 years, its obvious the parents are going to buy the latest and greatest for their kids thinking it will help.


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

Just as a plug to the quality of the Medallion XRs, I am shooting 600s at 29.5" shaft, 110gr point at 44lbs. 
Since I will still be going up in weight over the winter I didn't want to break the bank on expensive arrows (which I am now even happier with that decision with the release of the new Nanos  ). 
I have to say these arrows are truly amazing for the price, IMO they are better than a Carbon 1. Providing I do my job I can easily shoot 1200+ scores in practice with them, including a new PB last week of 1276. (90M FITA)


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Next little project of mine - I'm going to attempt to shoot a 320+ at 70 meters with a pair of $100 SF wood/glass limbs that I happen to have laying around. When I do, I'll post that up, complete with sight mark comparisons to my SKY double carbon/bamboo TR-7 limbs.


Any update on this?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

And for those of you looking for even smaller lighter arrows in the carbon impact range, It looks like they now have a "5/15" shaft. (didn't see those before)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> And for those of you looking for even smaller lighter arrows in the carbon impact range, It looks like they now have a "5/15" shaft. (didn't see those before)


I've heard of them, but have never seen them. Those would indeed be the lightest (not the skinniest though) all carbon arrows available today. Even the 10/20 CI arrows are lighter than the tiny Medallion XR's somehow. The XR's have a smaller diameter and thicker walls, which I guess is why.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arsi said:


> Any update on this?


Nope, not yet. Been WAY too busy prepping for Nationals, traveling and getting ready to host the TX state outdoor JOAD event...

Maybe this fall.


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Nope, not yet. Been WAY too busy prepping for Nationals, traveling and getting ready to host the TX state outdoor JOAD event...
> 
> Maybe this fall.


The limbs can shoot the 320, I shot a 321 with mine (In the 1276 I mentioned earlier). They are slow limbs but they can still throw an arrow downrange with decent accuracy.
And a friend of mine just this weekend shot a 320 in competition with my old limbs (which are last years SF wood/glass, not this years "Plus" version)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Cool! Well, there ya' have it.

320 at 70 meters is nothing to sneeze at, no matter what rig you have.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I don't know, I could probably shoot that... with 72 arrows. Sort of like shooting an 80 in golf... on the back 9.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Nope, not yet. Been WAY too busy prepping for Nationals, traveling and getting ready to host the TX state outdoor JOAD event...
> 
> Maybe this fall.


*like*

You rock, my friend. Chuck Norris of archery.


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## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

Hello,
New to the forum ... this thread is very interesting.

My son, (11 yrs old... shooting Hoyt Horizon 25" .. 20lb Med limbs... draw length 26.5" measured to the riser .. bow draws 23lbs at that length) 

He has been shooting the Easton 1820 arrows for practice since that is what we have on hand.. still shooting 20 meters working on form etc..

I am looking for his first set of arrows to move in to .. other club members have suggested 29" length etc... for room to grow. He's not using a clicker yet.. and just shooting bare bow right now with no sight or anything.

The guideline charts show that a 600 spine would be appropriate, but I am interested reading that some are shooting 1000-1100 or even smaller.

I realize this would be an arrow for him to grow with since he is so new to the recurve. I'm guessing anything will be a giant leap forward from the genesis arrow (1820) he is shooting now.

Any further input is appreciated.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

There's no way he needs a 600 spine arrow. Even at my 27.5 dl and 36 lbs, I only shoot about a 700 spine. He'll likely move through more than one set of arrows between 11 and being a young adult if he sticks with archery, so get him something more close to his draw length (assuming you know his draw length is correct and fairly consistent) , maybe an inch longer, and maybe one spine stiffer than where he should be at right now if he's moving up in weight. 1820s are already too stiff for him right now. I don't have the catalog with me or I'd check the youth charts. 

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

600 X 3 maybe.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

bruce_m said:


> Hello,
> New to the forum ... this thread is very interesting.
> 
> My son, (11 yrs old... shooting Hoyt Horizon 25" .. 20lb Med limbs... draw length 26.5" measured to the riser .. bow draws 23lbs at that length)
> ...


Something doesn't add up there. You need to recheck everything you posted regarding setup.. search AMO standards for where to measure.

20 lb limbs drawn to 26.5" should draw less than 20lbs not more. 

+1 on Johns assessment of 600x3

And I'm probably pulling 24-25lb's on the fingers (on my "teaching rig") and starting to get close to a good tune with Carbon Impact Super Club 10/20's


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## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

>>>20 lb limbs drawn to 26.5" should draw less than 20lbs not more

That was my thought too, the pro shop guy just took the bow back to measure it. Came back with the results. 

Forgive my ignorance .. but "600 x 3" .. does that mean get 1800's ?

Something like the Carbon Express Medallion-XR ... 29"

Do you think I we should be in the "youth" section?

Thanks again!


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

and what kind of pro shop were you in? 

sorry, something really doesn't add up.

If it was a BASS pro shop that deals primarily in hunting compounds, I would go get another opinion... Just my initial thought.

If he measured it at 28" draw length, that would mean the limb bolts are probably cranked in all the way or the limbs are not labeled correctly.

Please read my thread on 
"info when asking for help"

here http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2037374

and start a new thread rather than dragging this thread further off track.

DC


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

how about 120 yards with 37# and NO sight., seen this on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxxum7bR3es

Not carbon express, but just to show you don't need 50# bow to reach 70m or 90m


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Forgive my ignorance .. but "600 x 3" .. does that mean get 1800's ?


Yes.

DruFire, I have a young student who shot our state 4-H games last weekend. One of the events was Clout. His distance was 110 meters, and he and his mom thought he would have to sit that out because he is shooting a 20# wood-handled Polaris recurve and CI Super Club 10/20's. 

I said, "no way he's sitting that out!" and proceeded to show them that his bow had more than enough UMPH to shoot that distance. I taught him how to aim using the bottom edge of his riser on the ground in front of him (a nice trick that Greg Brown showed me in 2006 in his way to winning National Clout) and pretty soon he was lobbing arrows into the scoring ring distances - but not before we had to reign him in because he was shooting too far! ha, ha.

Great stuff.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Been almost a year but decided this NEEDS an update..

I just got CC'd on an email from our DOS achievement shoot coordinator regarding Olympian pins from USA Archery.

One of our Adult Achievement program shooters shooting bare bow, just earned his yellow pin (shooting barebow) and will now be pursuing his Olympian Bronze pin.

While it's not Olympic recurve with a sight, (much higher scores required) It's a worthy accomplishment.

and since this is in the "what is possible with a lightweight bow" thread, he's shooting 20lb axiom Medium limbs on a 25" riser. no sight or stabilizer. Medallion XR's 1000 spine.. I'll have to take another look at the rest of his rig to give you the rest of the equipment details.

We were getting ready to move him up in Draw weight but of course didn't want to do it right before an achievement shoot day!!!


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

While we are updating the thread:

Going to be ordering CI SC (6) so I can see what makes the most sense for a set of a dozen for now. 

The general idea is to get a set of arrows that will see me through this current set up, and then increasing the weight on the current limbs by a couple of pounds before stepping up to 32” limbs.

Goal is: indoors and a 900 round coming up in September. Working on medals right now both indoors and outdoors. Have first two in each (indoors and outdoors)

DL 25-25 ¼ so in theory my arrow length would be around 27” but no shorter than 26.5?
DW 24#
Limbs are axiom plus 28# and weigh at 29#. 

I was given some CI SC as follows. 

15/25 29”. I like the crazy skinny part but had to set my plunger way left. They shoot fine outdoors 30 yards (haven’t tried them longer distance, but indoors not so sure. (could be arrow, could be Indian). Jury still out on that one.

20/30 28.5”. They do fine indoors and outdoors and at distance (went out to 50 meters and hit the scoring parts of the target). I don’t have to crank them as far left as the 15/25 but I still have to push them left I did start the medal program and got my first two outdoors with no problem shooting 276 and 280 the first time I shot them at 30 meters.

Option 1: order 15/25 at 28.5” and start cutting from there. Static spine is .950 Obviously at 29” the dynamic spine is weak, right? So go shorter.
Option 2: order 20/30 at 28” and start cutting from there. Static spine is .820. And see above re” dynamic spine.

All the arrow charts except CI say I should be shooting 1000-.950. I realize that the general consensus is that Superclubs are STIFF and to go one spine lower than the CI chart. 20/30’s are an .820 spine

I also realize that whatever works is the arrow regardless of charts.

I was initially thinking of getting 15/25 and experimenting but an associate said it was better to get an arrow that was a little stiff so they would also survive a step up in weight. 
So now I am thinking 20/30 at 28.5” and start shaving off length til I get them less left. The fact that they seem to behave better overalll leans me in this direction.

Because, if I get the 15/25, will they make it through a two pound step up in weight?

This does not have to be perfect at this point, merely acceptable as I am still working on consistent form and have not added a clicker yet. Only been using a sight for about a month.

15/25 or 20/30 or does it make much of a difference? for what I am hoping to achieve? 

Thanks.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Can't see your setup or shot but if you were in my club, I would tell you not to go above the 15/25.

At your DL and Calculated DW, you really should be shooting 10/20's at 25" (unless you did not use AMO for DL)


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

D.

DL was measured to the front of the rest. AMO DL, as I understand it, measuring to the front of the riser and adding 1.75. I can see where that might make a difference. I measured 1.75 from the front of the riser and it came to past the front of the rest by 1/4-1/2 inch. I will remeasure Wednesday when I am in the shop again using AMO DL, if my understanding of that measurement is correct. I cannot do much about the current 15/25's I have re: cutting them because the points are epoxied in, otherwise I'd be experimenting already. 

Also acquiring Bohnig blue hot melt so I don't have this epoxy problem any more.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

StarDog said:


> D.
> 
> DL was measured to the front of the rest. AMO DL, as I understand it, measuring to the front of the riser and adding 1.75.


AMO is measured from where the nock is on the string to the point on the arrow above *the deepest part of the grip* (also called the "pivot point" as that is the fulcrum where your hand meets the bow) plus 1.75 inches.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Read the sticky. 

AMO 1.75" past the pivot point of the bow.

Pivot point is the deepest point of the grip.

Please read the sticky.

Unless we are all on the same page using the same measurements it's very hard to do any thing more than guess. "Garbage in=garbage out"

Super clubs are parallel shafts so technically you could cut them from the rear and re-fletch.

If you have to cut more than 1.25" then you could cut them and purchase new points however at 24 lbs OTF and 26.5" shafts. 15/25's would be over spined. Even at 28.5" you are probably on the edge.

Those 15/25's would probably take you to 26 or even 27lbs OTH safely. They may not "spine " perfectly but they will take you to your next weight easily.

Then when you are ready, move up to ultra fasts or medallions.

DC


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

D and W:

thanks for the clarification. I can see measuring DL AMO (from the pivot point) versus to the arrow rest would make a difference. Out of curiousity, I did something highly approximate, which was take a ruler and from the pivot point mark off 1.75". That actually gave me an AMO DL longer than to the arrow rest , but that was just an approximation. I will do this correctly in the next couple of days.

In measuring draw weight, I looked on the AMO info off the link in DChan's sticky:

_Bow weight is the force required to draw the nocking point of the bow string a
given distance from the pivot point of the bow grip.

For the purpose of uniform bow weight designation, bow weight is the force
required to draw the bow string 26 1/4” from the pivot point. This weight will be
marked on bow as being taken at 28” draw (26 1/4” plus 1 3/4” = 28”) 
_

So in measuring DW, would one measure ones DL to the pivot point only? Or pivot point plus 1.75"?

One of these days I am going to get this stuff sorted out.

Thanks a million for your help and guidance.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

If you are going to measure DW for an OTF number, you need to draw your bow back to the exact distance you do when you are at full draw, and measure the poundage there. Forget about DL, AMO, Rated, etc.. Just the raw DW number. 

If you are drawing back to the same place every time, then the DW will remain constant as long as you are not changing anything else (limb bolts, etc)

This number in combination with your actual arrow length (bottom of the nock groove to end of the shaft) will give us the most accurate approximation for dynamic spine choice.

The need for AMO is so we know what you are using as a reference point and so we are all using the same "measuring points" It also aids us in estimating or calculating DW when someone is not using a bow scale. 

276 and 280 out of a possible 360 puts you with an average of 7.6-7.7 per arrow. If that average includes some 10's and 9's then your groupings would be at about the 5 ring. or middle of the blue.

This puts your group size (assuming you are shooting 80cm targets at 30M) at 40CM or almost 16" groups. 

At this group size for 30M, 2 spine stiff to one spine weak would not be the end of the world. There are other thing's that will gain you those points a lot faster than fussing with and really worrying about the tune/spine.

"Do a proper setup (basic centershot just outside center) proper nock height, tune BH for quietest you can, Get the spine "close enough" so you are not having any impacts with the riser and go shoot."
would be my advice.. Err on the stiff side not because it will give you space to grow. Err on the stiff side because it's more forgiving..

The first 3 pins, and even some people say the 4th pin for a steady shooter are almost gimmee's it's that plateau 5th pin were we begin to realize it's harder than it looks.

It's always a great accomplishment when you get to what ever your plateau pin is, and finally push through it. Then the realization sets in, that hard work, and practice are what get you to that next level.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Fantastic, thanks, D! I will revisit this after I get proper DL measured. Then I will have concrete information to give you.

Your last post had great information in it.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Now I have more solid data because we remeasured everything using AMO Dl etc.

AMO DL 26.75"
The bow is set at 26#
I am pulling 24#
BH 8.5" nock height 3/8"

66" bow 
Core Spark Riser , Axiom Plus short 28# limbs. 
It looks like I have plenty room to increase bow weight when I m ready.

15/25? The ones I have are 29" and too long (because they fly way right if I set the center shot and I use the plunger to push them left. 
20/30 28.5" behave a little better.

DChan is recommending the 15/25 and has much more experience with this stuff. 

I am thinking of order half dozen 15/25 cut to 28.5" and making adjustments from there if I have to 

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Sounds reasonable to me.

If you have an AMO DL of 26.75", you should be able to safely trim those arrows down to 26.5" or even 26.25" and still have plenty of room which will give you lots of room to adjust those arrows.

Quick question, When you say "set the centershot" you do mean you are setting up the arrow/plunger combination so that the tip of the arrow is just to the left of the string sighting down the arrow with the string centered on the riser? Not actually centershot?


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Dchan:

Center shot: precisely. Just as you said. When I did that, the arrows flew left. Less left on the 20/30 but they are 1/2 shorter.

so 28.5 or possibly even 28" on the 15/25 or am I pushing my luck?

Thanks again!


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## larry tom (Aug 16, 2012)

Sorry to be jumping on this thread so late, but just wanted to share my own experience in support of the distances you can achieve with these lighter arrows. I've only been doing archery a couple of years, but have (until recently) been shooting with CI Super Clubs pretty much from the beginning. At age 64, I find pulling 30# uptimal. With that draw weight and those arrows I've not had any difficulty hitting 60 and 70 yards, with room on my sight to go even further. Recently I picked up a half dozen CX Medallion XRs, and they are flying really well. Hit my personal best earlier this week in practise with those XRs, indoors at 20 yards. Point being ... you don't have to spend a lot of money to get good equipment and have success in archery. Just my $.02 Best regards, Larry T


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

StarDog said:


> Dchan:
> 
> Center shot: precisely. Just as you said. When I did that, the arrows flew left. Less left on the 20/30 but they are 1/2 shorter.
> 
> ...


Without a bare shaft test and seeing the actual arrow flight, it's hard to say.

I would still be looking at 15/25's and start at 28.5 if not 29"


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Dchan:

Thank. I will report back the results!


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

My CI SC 15/25s @28# and a 29" arrow and 29"DL give me a pretty good tune.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

wfo charlie: so you're pulling bout 30#? Just curious


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

26# long limbs with a 29" DL gives me about 28#


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Thanks. That's good to know. My dl is 26.75 and ordinarily shoot a 27" arrow which these will probably wind up to be, although I will order half dozen at 28.5 and start from there.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Our Yellow pin bare bow achiever this week shot 281. That's 50M 122cm target barebow. While he did go up in weight a touch, (now shooting 26lb limbs, probably about 23-24#OTF) That's impressive. Congrats!!!

That's an Adult Bronze Olympian pin!


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

That is very impressive. I am going to chase 50M now in the adult outdoor medal thing so I can appreciate all the hard work and talent that went into that, especially for a barebow shooter -- or any one for that matter.


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Would the CI shafts have an equivalent in the Apollo shafts?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Drogo_Moss said:


> Would the CI shafts have an equivalent in the Apollo shafts?


two different companies, however apollo shafts come as weak as 1200 spine which would be an ultrafast 1200 or Superclub 10/20
Superclubs and Ultrafast shafts come as weak as 1500. Something Apollo shafts don't have.

Apollo shafts are 5.85 each, plus 1.00 for pin adapters and .98 for nocks, 1.25 for points, and whatever you decide to spend on vanes (9.00+ per arrow), and you have to assemble them. Plus shipping etc..
Compared to super clubs at 5.85 each and that includes all components and they are pre-fletched, all you have to do is install the points.



FYI that is Lancaster pricing..


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello
Very nice learning thread. 
Thanks John and all. [ Later


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## wags2 (Jan 26, 2009)

It is amazing at the distances you can get with these light weights. My daughter is 9 and shooting a 21" excel pulling 16 otf and with a 18.5 inch draw is easily getting to 30 meters(sight moved all the way in). CI 5/15 cut to 23" with 60 grains in front, need a little more tip weight and they would be perfect. Tough little arrows.

Can't wait to see what you shoot with your axiom limbs John. I'm shootings 34# axioms on a nexus riser shooting 800 spine medallions. Not a bad setup for the money and is very forgiving to my shooting flaws.


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks dchan.

Anyone with thoughts or recommendation on this:

I'm "coaching" this girl and boy:

Girl has: 23 inch DL, and 18# draw weight on a 25 inch riser with a 30# medium limb
--- If she uses a CI arrow at length 24.5 inches, It should be the CI SC 515 or 1000. Am I correct?


Boy has: 27 inch DL and 323 draw weight on a 25 inch riser with a 34# medium limb
--- If he uses a CI arrow at length 28 inches, It should be the CI SC 1525 or an Apollo 740 or 840. 840 perhaps?

Kind of a hit or miss for us here as we can only order online


Thanks in advance.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Drogo_Moss said:


> Thanks dchan.
> 
> Anyone with thoughts or recommendation on this:
> 
> ...


If your goal is to actually be able to tune the girl's bow you will need to go a lot weaker than that. Carbon Impact SC 5/15 or Ultrafast 1500 is the weakest they come. 18lbs OTF and shorter than 26" you really need to be shooting 1214 Aluminum's or at the very least Medallion XR 2000s. If your goal is to have something inexpensive that will hold up well until she grows and starts shooting more weight. SC 5/15's and leave them long. like 26-27"

The boy, if CI SC is what you want to shoot, then 15/25's would be right. probably in another carbon parallel shaft, 800ish would be about right.


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks dchan.

The most she can add to her draw length is maybe an inch or so. Maybe that'll add like to 2# using the current limbs. She currently used the same bow/limbs with a 28 inch W&W Challenge 700 arrow. And at 50 meters she struggled by sighting way way above the target butt. Still hit the gold once in a while but most of the arrows were confined in the red/blue/black area and the grass. Made me think what she could do with lighter arrows.

In that case I guess she really has to go with the xx75 platinum plus at the spine you recommended.

A lot of doubts removed... thanks again.

Oh one more thing I can't seem to find a beiter out-nock for apollo shafts. Do I really have to stick with g-nocks and pin nocks.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

using a 700 spine arrow at 28" it's going to be a heavy arrow. 

What kind of groups/scores is she putting up at 18M, 60cm target? If she is not shooting 240+ out of 300 at 18M, getting a perfectly tuned arrow is not going to make that big of a difference yet.

It may not be worth the expense of building arrows if she is going to grow and increase weight (maybe heavier limbs) Also I would question shooting a 25" riser and medium limbs with a 23" DL but that's a different topic.

Lancaster now offers Easton Tribute in Made to order arrows. You can get these down to 1214 shafts. Platinum Plus would be quite a bit more expensive and they start at 1416 shafts.

If you are really wanting all carbon then it appears the challenge arrows come as weak as 1800 spine. I've never seen one of these arrows here in the states so I have no idea how they shoot or stack up against the other shafts I've worked with. I can't even find any weight specifications for them online.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Drogo_Moss said:


> Thanks dchan.
> 
> The most she can add to her draw length is maybe an inch or so. Maybe that'll add like to 2# using the current limbs. She currently used the same bow/limbs with a 28 inch W&W Challenge 700 arrow. And at 50 meters she struggled by sighting way way above the target butt. Still hit the gold once in a while but most of the arrows were confined in the red/blue/black area and the grass. Made me think what she could do with lighter arrows.


Move her aiming point to the flag. That along with some 1214s.

-Grant


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Yup. She's actually aiming on the 3rd floor windows of the building behind.


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## Double_E (Jul 30, 2011)

Hello everybody, amazing info here!! Thanks. This is my situation, girlfriend is getting better in archery, clean release, good grouping at 30mts. She's shooting 32 lbs in her fingers probably going to 34 with her current limbs (the bolts are less than half way in), she's got 26,5 draw lengh, shafts are 26 inches long, her heritated ACC 830 are a little stiff for her now and as she wants to shoot 50m and more, I'm planning to give her some superclubs as present as those are lighter. The chart suggests 15-25s but archery shop personal and club people say 20-30s. Which way to go? what do you suggest? thanks in advance!!! Ed.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Double_E said:


> Hello everybody, amazing info here!! Thanks. This is my situation, girlfriend is getting better in archery, clean release, good grouping at 30mts. She's shooting 32 lbs in her fingers probably going to 34 with her current limbs (the bolts are less than half way in), she's got 26,5 draw lengh, shafts are 26 inches long, her heritated ACC 830 are a little stiff for her now and as she wants to shoot 50m and more, I'm planning to give her some superclubs as present as those are lighter. The chart suggests 15-25s but archery shop personal and club people say 20-30s. Which way to go? what do you suggest? thanks in advance!!! Ed.


What's the rest of her rig configuration? have you done a bare shaft test with her ACC's? Do you know the exact configuration of her ACC's (point weight, nock, fletch/vane type) and what were the results?


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## Double_E (Jul 30, 2011)

Hello dchan, thanks for help, she's shooting a 25" GMX, limbs are Gold Medalist wood-fiber short 36lbs (not the fastest limb on earth), ACCs were mine so I know those, 26inches from carbon to carbon, points are 100 gr, nocks are beiter in, the vanes are elivanes P3, shibuya dx plunger, rest is a Shibuya Ultima, string have 14 fibers. I believe those are stiff because we have to put her plunger very light in presure for the arrows not going too much to the left on the target (pushing her sight to the lateral limit) and also because of that she have clearance problems, there is damage in her vanes after every practice. We haven't done bareshaft test (we have currently only 6 beaten fleched arrows left) we will make it tomorrow to be more acurate in results, I'll comment, thanks for your time, again.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

That helps..

The 20/30's are an 820 spine. Same as your acc's but only 80 gn spine. Heavier vanes, nocks will probably be a little lighter. Since no insert unless you set up the beiter in nocks with no "uni nock insert" in which case they are probably close. Put all these factors together and if you cut the arrows to 26" the Dynamic spine of the 20/30's will be even stiffer than your current setup.. You need to be thinking 15/25's

DC


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

You didn't mention a stabilizer but if she is shooting no stabilizer, adding one will make the arrows act stiffer too.

DC


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## Double_E (Jul 30, 2011)

Also I think that her super clean release doesnt contribute with arrow waving. She's shooting with a complete x10 stabs set up, 28" front, 3 inches extender and 10 inches laterals.

dchan, Thank you for help! I'll post the end of the story!!


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## Double_E (Jul 30, 2011)

done bare shaft test with her ACC's 830s, arrows are stiff, to have the bare shaft on the group, you have to put her plunger extremely soft, we have now added 2 turns to riser bolts to shoot a little bit stronger, but as dchan suggested we need to be thinking 15/25's

Thanks for help!


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Uhm... here's another puzzle I'm having a hard time with.

This teeny weeny girl approached me with her father and asked me directly if I could teach her archery.

Apparently, she saw me shooting arrows into paper plates for the past four months. 

she has convinced her Mom and Dad that she needs a bow set.

So here's the "puzzle".

I'm planning to get her this (an all the other stuff):

SF Optimo PLUS riser RH 19.5in (for 54-58in bow)
SF Optimo PLUS limbs for 54 inch bow at 10 lbs
Cartel Dacron String for 54in bow 
Hoyt Super Rest
SF Axiom Junior Sight RH
Easton Jazz Purple shaft 1214 at 21 inches.

Now her draw length = 18.5 inches (she's under 4 feet). Still at Grade 4 in elementary school

Am I getting her the right set? I want her to keep hitting the target at 10 meters so she'll enjoy it. 

It's to just whet her burning interest into archery into a raging fire... hahahaha. Poor Mom and Dad.

So archer Dads and coaches help me get the best set.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Keep those 1214 full length. 21" will be far too stiff.

-Grant

Edit: I usually get a stab on the bow before the sight.


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

But at 26+ inches... wouldn't that be too long for the girl?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Unless you MUST use a riser mounted clicker, (doubtful) theres no reason to worry about "too long" 

If you want the arrows to spine even close... Leave them full length.

DC


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks guys. Would it be advisable to start her with a long rod? What would be the best length (ball park estimate)?.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Drogo_Moss said:


> Thanks guys. Would it be advisable to start her with a long rod? What would be the best length (ball park estimate)?.


That depends on if she can handle the mass weight. I often start people bare bow just because lifting and holding 3 lbs at arms length
Is tough enough. Add the stabilizer and you just make it worse.

Re length. How tall is she? Just long enough to rest the stabilizer on the ground and still be able load arrows comfortably. She will have plenty of time in the future to experiment with different lengths.

DC


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## Drogo_Moss (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks dchan.  maybe I'll just use the longest short rod I can find for now.


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## Dewboy (Apr 19, 2005)

Good info here. It is nice to see a thread where none of the answers to a youth arrow is .500 spined Gold Tips, posted by someone with 0 experience. When you enter the compound discussions for youth arrows here at AT, more times than not, the answer for every weight and every draw length is .500 spined Gold Tips, or worse; cut-off 400's from dad's scrap arrow bin. I know you can get away with a lot stiffer spine with a compound, but people still have their kids lobbing very "heavy" arrows and struggling to get any distance or bouncing arrows off the target. Not to mention have them shooting 5+ lbs of bow & accessories with no regard to how difficult it is for them to hold at arms length. I like the fact that the knowledgeable recurve shooters and instructors take the time to get the spine just right, no matter the age of the archer and actually take bow weight into consideration when starting them out. Much respect to those who work so hard to help the kids get the proper equipment. Thanks for posting!


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