# Qualifying for U.S./JOAD Nationals



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Last year, I made the suggestion to the USArchery staff (at their request) that the two events should run back-to-back instead of simultaneously. I proposed a format where the adults (U.S. Nationals) would compete first, and then the U.S. Open could be shot on the morning of official practice day for JOAD Nationals. This would allow the kids who were interested to watch the top archers compete for titles at the US Open matchplay event, then go on to their official practice, full of inspiration for the week ahead. It would also allow USArchery staff and the event host staff and volunteers to set up one time, and tear down one time. Judges could be brought in for U.S. Nationals, and then new judges (and volunteers) for JOAD Nationals that followed. The two events could fit in one week easily, and not choke up the administration the way they do now when run simultaneously.

Just an idea. I know that and a quarter will still not get you a cup of coffee these days, but I think that back-to-back format, and the qualification requirement, need to be strongly considered moving forward.

John


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i agree. You have some seriously good ideas.


Chris


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

At last count:

460 JOAD aged archers

215 Senior/Masters aged archers.

Cadet Recurve is the largest group at 172

675 total archers.

And, I totally agree with you. It's separating the wheat from the chaff.

Speaking from a coach perspective - I do feel that you should have some sort of qualifying score of some sort in order to be in Nationals. And - I feel there's some level of confusion in Indoor Nationals where you have a JOAD Indoor Champion and a Indoor National Champion. Who really is the National Champion in that case? Separating the events help in this where you have one true national champion for your category/class/age group.

But, I'm sure there will be detractors speaking up...

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I feel there's some level of confusion in Indoor Nationals where you have a JOAD Indoor Champion and a Indoor National Champion.


The confusion is real, and detrimental to our sport IMO. We had the same issue when JOAD Nationals and U.S. Nationals were run seperately (as in 2006) where you had one winner of JOAD Nationals, and another winner of U.S. Nationals in several youth divisions. It was pretty ridiculous. Any format that leaves ANY doubt in the minds of those competing about who is the true champion, is not a valid format IMO. 

The other reason we need to clear this up indoors is that we actually put some YOUNG kids in the position to shoot more arrows in 3 days than ANY of the adults! That's just not right. Quite a few young JOAD archers are shooting 60/60/60 arrows over three days and wrecking their bodies, form, scores and confidence in the process. This really needs to be fixed too.

I would be in favor of having a qualifying score for both outdoor and indoor nationals, and then combining the indoor event so that the adults and JOAD archers compete at the same time. 

Another issue we need to address eventually is jumping age divisions. But I digress. We probably need to keep this topic on qualifying for nationals... 



> I can think of other reasons, but these three stand out to me. Especially the third. There is no bigger "buzzkill" for a local TV or Newspaper reporter than for them to come interview JOAD archers (or even adults) who will be attending nationals, only to find out that they themselves (the reporter) could pay their entry fee and show up with the fiberglass bow their granddad gave them in 1974.


Have any of you other JOAD leaders or parents experienced this? I get asked quite often by reporters who want to cover an archer who is going to nationals, or who has just returned from nationals "So, what did they have to do to qualify for nationals?" 

Man, I hate that question.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Have any of you other JOAD leaders or parents experienced this? I get asked quite often by reporters who want to cover an archer who is going to nationals, or who has just returned from nationals "So, what did they have to do to qualify for nationals?"
> 
> Man, I hate that question.


Im not a JOAD leader or a parent but come on, John. Just be honest. They had to do their chores, do their homework, and adhere to their curfew for the months leading up to nationals. Not that tough of a question 

Just kidding of course haha!

Anyways joking aside, what type of score were you thinking about being able to qualify for nationals? We are in such a weird period right now with the powers at be wanting to push just the 70 meter round rather than a FITA. I do enjoy the idea of having to qualify. Maybe the score would have to be relatively pedestrian? 1150 FITA or 500 double 70m? Note that im just throwing numbers out there. I have not been at this sport for nearly as long to have a weighted opinion so be nice 

Though I wonder how this would impact people who dont have a state level event to attend to qualify. Arguably those who would even be considering nationals would possibly have already made a stop somewhere around the USAT qualifier circuit. Also, could this impact some of our friends in Canada or other parts of the world who make the trek over?

I come from another "sport" prior to archery where there are major tournaments leading up to a world wide tournament final. These majors you would compete in for seeding points in the final tournament. I always thought that this was a pretty exciting way to handle eliminations and qualifying. I wonder if archery could one day take on this form.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I was thinking blue pin level for both JOAD and Adult Achievement archers. That seems reasonable to me.

If an archer isn't in either program, and doesn't have a state organization, then they can travel to a qualifying event the same way we do for USAT teams or qualifying events for the Olympic trials (which was the case prior to the 2012 selections). If there aren't any qualifying, state-sanctioned events nearby, then they can start a JOAD club and host one. It's not that hard to do. Just need a level 2 coach (again, not that hard to get) and 3 or more archers to form the JOAD/AA club, then they can host a qualifying event themselves and send in their scorecards with their registrations. 

Yes, the scores would be rather pedestrian, but they do serve a purpose.

I think we all want this sport to grow. I believe it will grow quite a bit until the Hunger Games/Brave effect wears off (about the time those kids get to high school/college) in a few years. So what will Nationals look like in 2 or 3 years from now? 1000 archers? 1300 archers? How would any host club or venue handle that? And why should they? 

I feel that there is merit in simply having to qualify for nationals. It raises the profile of the event and gives kids a season-long goal to shoot for.

I'd compare it to visiting a local attraction. When it's nearby and you know you can go anytime you want, you never really put much value on it and make plans to go. But if it's far away and only available every so often, then it becomes "special" and you plan a visit. Strange how human nature works that way, but I think it would be the same with nationals if we required archers to qualify. It would make it a little more special and give them more incentive to work towards that goal.

As for our internationals, I don't think we have an issue with poorly qualified archers attending from overseas, or Canada or Mexico. From what I've seen, those are usually some of their best archers and they come in very manageable numbers. I don't ever remember seeing an international archer searching for arrows behind the bale. But I could have missed it.

John


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> I'd compare it to visiting a local attraction. When it's nearby and you know you can go anytime you want, you never really put much value on it and make plans to go. But if it's far away and only available every so often, then it becomes "special" and you plan a visit. Strange how human nature works that way, but I think it would be the same with nationals if we required archers to qualify. It would make it a little more special and give them more incentive to work towards that goal.


This is a really good point to recognize. I mean, ive been going to these USAT qualifiers just cause I could. I have been putting up pretty terrible scores at USAT qualifiers that I massively eclipse in practice. Next year im most likely going to be eliminating Texas and Nationals from my calendar to give me more time to focus on doing well at state level. At least I have SoCal and AZ Cup close by to whet my national level shoot appetite


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

JOAD blue pin level is a 240 on a 122 cm face at 50 meters for recurvers, 265 for compound and 225 for barebow.

As a JOAD and AA coach, this is the level where I start seeing some separation between the serious archers, and those who are there to just socialize and have fun.


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## robin smith (Jun 6, 2011)

This is well spoke and people in charge need to start listening. Only problem I see is in allot of areas the nationals are scheduled before the Regionals and state events so kids would have to qualify from last years scores. A better way maybe to get state directors or regional coach to have to sign off that a person is qualified to be there. Just a thought.


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## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

Most sports require qualifying standards for nationals. BUT remember each entry pays a fee. The more entries the more money collected. Does anyone wonder why our last Olympic Trials were "open" without qualifying scores?


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

jwalgast said:


> BUT remember each entry pays a fee. The more entries the more money collected./QUOTE]
> 
> Yep, exactly why I think this still wont take off. Its hard to $ee pa$t the money in people$ eye$...


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed...

-Steve




limbwalker said:


> The confusion is real, and detrimental to our sport IMO. We had the same issue when JOAD Nationals and U.S. Nationals were run seperately (as in 2006) where you had one winner of JOAD Nationals, and another winner of U.S. Nationals in several youth divisions. It was pretty ridiculous. Any format that leaves ANY doubt in the minds of those competing about who is the true champion, is not a valid format IMO.


2011 was the last time we had separate outdoor JOAD and US Nationals where that level of confusion occurred.

There are some people that feel that any JOAD National should be developmental, and US Nationals should be the true championship, irrespective of indoor or outdoor. If I recall, Bob Pian mentioned something similar to this effect in prior posts.



> The other reason we need to clear this up indoors is that we actually put some YOUNG kids in the position to shoot more arrows in 3 days than ANY of the adults! That's just not right. Quite a few young JOAD archers are shooting 60/60/60 arrows over three days and wrecking their bodies, form, scores and confidence in the process. This really needs to be fixed too.


Depending on the regional location and the tournament staff, the 60/60/60 may not be split across three days. I know at last years and this years Rio Rancho regional, overflow on the JOAD side required some kids to shoot Saturday Morning JOAD Nationals, then either Saturday afternoon/Sunday nationals, or Saturday morning JOAD and Sunday morning/afternoon nationals.

In 2012, my son shot Saturday Morning JOAD, Saturday Afternoon/Sunday Afternoon nationals. This year, Spencer shot Saturday morning JOAD, Saturday afternoon/Sunday Morning nationals.

Now, Spencer's stout enough to shoot a 120/60 two day split. Most bowmen aged kids can't. 



> I would be in favor of having a qualifying score for both outdoor and indoor nationals, and then combining the indoor event so that the adults and JOAD archers compete at the same time.
> 
> Another issue we need to address eventually is jumping age divisions. But I digress. We probably need to keep this topic on qualifying for nationals...


This may be a reason for splitting JOAD and Nationals and having youth age categories in Nationals. Make JOAD open. Make Nationals have a MQS.



> Have any of you other JOAD leaders or parents experienced this? I get asked quite often by reporters who want to cover an archer who is going to nationals, or who has just returned from nationals "So, what did they have to do to qualify for nationals?"
> 
> Man, I hate that question.


I get asked that question all the time by parents. You should see the odd expressions I get when they hear my answer...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Depending on the regional location and the tournament staff, the 60/60/60 may not be split across three days.


Great point. seperate topic, I know, but I forget that can happen every year. 



> I get asked that question all the time by parents. You should see the odd expressions I get when they hear my answer...


Figured I wasn't the only one. It's an awkward feeling for sure. We promote JOAD as JUNIOR OLYMPIC and that makes it sound very important until we're asked about details like what one has to do to qualify for nationals... Then, not so much.



> There are some people that feel that any JOAD National should be developmental, and US Nationals should be the true championship, irrespective of indoor or outdoor.


I could go along with that. As long as it's CLEAR and the Jr. USAT rankings reflect it. I could even be in favor of JOAD Nationals being an open, developmental event, and U.S. Nationals requiring a qualifying score and having a combined event. But then would you have to wonder what the point of JOAD nationals would be? Most families can't justify a long road trip for an event that doesn't mean much.

John


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I could go along with that. As long as it's CLEAR and the Jr. USAT rankings reflect it. I could even be in favor of JOAD Nationals being an open, developmental event, and U.S. Nationals requiring a qualifying score and having a combined event. But then would you have to wonder what the point of JOAD nationals would be? Most families can't justify a long road trip for an event that doesn't mean much.
> 
> John


I agree John. In the past when my kids were doing JOAD, JOAD nationals was the national championships and NTC also had youth distances. The reality was that the youth field was no more than the babysitting field because it ran concurrently with the adults shooting. So, the adults (many of whom were parents of the JOADs) shot on one field and the kids, minus the parents and in may cases the only discipline source for the kids, were on the other field. Typically the youth field was understaffed with officials and since many of the knowledgeable coaches and parents were shooting, the youth field was a disaster. Score keeping errors, equipment issues, discipline issues, etc. For my family we choose to do one or the other with which one we went to depending on budget issues, i.e location with the bias towards JOAD nationals because the kids were the focus of the event and not an afterthought. My view is combining NTC and JOAD nationals is the worst possible combination.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

jwalgast said:


> Most sports require qualifying standards for nationals. BUT remember each entry pays a fee. The more entries the more money collected. Does anyone wonder why our last Olympic Trials were "open" without qualifying scores?


Great point. I don't think there will be any change unless the field becomes full on a consistent basis. It doesn't make economic sense for USAA to do otherwise.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> So what will Nationals look like in 2 or 3 years from now? 1000 archers? 1300 archers? How would any host club or venue handle that?


The ASA seems to handle massive Pro-Ams well with a thousand archers.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

So much here to dissect and discuss as separate issues, let me offer this..........You are talking about instituting a fundamental cultural shift in archery. One of the wonderful things about archery is that rank amateurs and beginners have the opportunity to shoot side by side with Olympians, past Olympians, World Team Members, USAT, Jr. USAT, Cadet USAT, and JDT members. I know of no other sport where that happens. It's inspiring to the adults, and especially inspiring to the youth. It's the reason why many people participate in the big national events. I would think that some of the best ambassadors the sport has are those people who finished in the bottom of heap but got to shoot with someone in a (earned) USA shirt. ( sorry, just a little editorial comment :smile: ). 

Yes it's true that arrows missing the bale is an embarrassment at and for the BIG National event. But just like the young kid shooting 60/60/60, this should be where the coach steps in and counsels the parents about appropriate competition for the young archer. Here's a short story...........last year there was young boy who shot in the cadet division and finished the first day in next to last position. I know the boy and counseled his parents that he was not prepared for a big national event. His coach on the other hand insisted that he should go. The boy was so upset and embarrassed that he would not come back to the field for the second day of qualifications.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

one long time coach I spoke with at SO CAL noted that the JOAD shoot (aka the EJN) was originally a tournament for JOAD Clubs. HE suggested that it return to that with US Nationals being the open junior shoot. He argued that RAs not attend the EJN since they are basically full time professionals and the EJN has morphed away from what it was intended. We now have the USOTC as being sufficient club affiliation or some "virtual" JOAD club that allows a collection of all stars on JDT to be a club just like Halls, CJO, or Crooked River-clubs that actually develop archers from youth in the Community.

I am concerned about the stratification of youth archery-the void between those who, at the age of 13 or 14 are told that to be successful they have to cast away participation in other sports or activities and make archery their only extra-curricular endeavor (if JDT requires 300 arrows a day, you aren't going to be playing on your High school varsity tennis team or running HS cross country at a competitive level) and those who love archery and want to compete but don't want to foresake other HS activities. 

I don't know what the answer is. But I am hearing more and more from parents that they aren't going to waste lots of money sending their kids to big national meets because (and I don't agree with this) they cannot compete against the kids with the USA shirts. And I can tell you from my experience from other sports that if you make entry costs higher, you WILL NOT LOSE the very top competitors-at least not immediately. But when the grassroots die, you will lose lots of talented kids who may not demonstrate promises of greatness immediately.. And I note one kid I coached, who ended up twice being the #2 qualifier at two successive EJN cadet tournaments as well as winning the NTC, did not show any real hint of greatness his first two years shooting but ended up being a 1300+ cadet.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Casualfoto, I understand your point completely. It was an honor for me to share the same line with Olympians when I first began to compete, and it's now an honor for me to share that line with beginners in our sport. I know all my fellow Olympic archers and the World Championship compound archers feel the same way. That IS one of the great things about our sport.

However - with apologies to Dacota here - USArchery has not been able to demonstrate that it can handle 600 archers at a single event well, much less 1000 or more. ASA is a different animal completely. Archers shoot in small groups and have the chance to correct issues as they go. Setting up a 3-D course is infinitely easier than a fita range due to merely pounding stakes in the ground at different distances to cover the ages and divisions, all the archers do not shoot on the same whistle at 3-D, etc., etc. So it's quite different. Finding a single venue to host US/JOAD Nationals in the future will only become more problematic, so at some point, either the two events will have to be separated once again, or they will have to shrink the number of archers attending. Either way, the newest of the new archers will NOT have the chance to toe the line with Olympians and World Champions, so I see it as inevitable. There will be drawbacks to our sport becoming more popular, and this is just one of them. 

I'm merely suggesting a "reasonable" qualifying criteria to get into nationals. I think to a lot of people - esp. non-archers, that only makes sense.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It will also make it easier on a LOT of JOAD coaches whenever the question of "who is planning to attend nationals" comes up.

Everyone will know at the beginning of the season that archers working on their white or black pins need to stay with it and make progress if they want to qualify for the "big show." 

To me, it's actually a very positive tool to have in the JOAD and AA programs.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

To the point of being 'on the line with heroes', I think it makes sense that the culminating event of the season (nationals) would need a qualifying score. Other USAT shoots don't need it, which would allow those inspiring situations to happen.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few more thoughts and comments...

1) The draw of being able to access past and current high performing archers is an allure to potential and future stars. But, there should be a difference between tournaments like a WRT and USAT tournament (Arizona/SoCal/Gator/Texas) versus Nationals.

2) Where do coaches and parents draw the line between going to something like Nationals and sticking with more local/regional tournaments?

I've always held the view that in going to a National tournament, you should be able to keep the arrows on the bale, you should be able to do math, and you should know the tournament format you're shooting. 

In many tournaments (NFAA and USA Archery), I cannot tell you how many times both the parent and the archer were shocked to find out what the format was. One sticks out in my head from this year where both parents and coaches at the 2013 WAF were arguing with the officials (including Frank Pearson, who was one of the judges) that the kids should be shooting 10 yards and they were demanding to know when the distance was changed to 20 yards.

(It was little help when they were told that the distance hasn't changed in years - it's been the same distance for longer than some of the parents have been alive...but that didn't help matters any...)

Tournament prep is key to knowing the realistic limits of what the archer should and can do. The fact that the coaches have an unrealistic view makes it even more damaging to the sport.

3) As a parent, I've never sent my kid off to a tournament unless he knew he could shoot the distance. As a coach, I have never sent off a student to a tournament unless they could shoot the distance. No arrow searching, no issues (save for equipment failures), nada. I feel that it's my job as a coach and dad to prep my archers to know what to do and how to do it.

Anyhow, that's me. Others may view things a tad differently.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> 1) The draw of being able to access past and current high performing archers is an allure to potential and future stars. But, there should be a difference between tournaments like a WRT and USAT tournament (Arizona/SoCal/Gator/Texas) versus Nationals.


Agreed. We're nearly to the point now (if not already there) where USAT series events are more prestigious than our National Championship event! 

I and others have thought about this for a while now. A TRUE National Championship should mean something. I've thought of needing regional or state representatives in the past, but that would be to complicated. Just requiring a reasonable qualifying criteria would be a good first step.



> Anyhow, that's me. Others may view things a tad differently.


Steve, this JOAD/AA coach, parent and husband sees it exactly the same way. I would not take my daughter to Nationals if she couldn't keep them all on the bale - as a 12 year old - at 50 meters with a recurve bow. That's a tall order too. Maybe the toughest thing asked of an archer in this sport - to be a 12 year old girl shooting a recurve at 50 meters. But if she can't keep them all on the bale, in my view she has no business attending our national championship and should just shoot local and state-level events until she can. Thankfully for her, she can, and has earned her red pin already. But if not, you can bet she'd be staying home. As for my wife, she's switched to recurve and has only been shooting it for about 6 months -off and on. There is NO WAY she could keep all her arrows on the bale at 70 meters (sorry dear) and she has no business shooting nationals. She has the class and discretion to know this and not even try, knowing she would be wasting a lot of other people's time while she looked for arrows behind the bale. But I think having a minimum qualifying score to qualify for nationals would be a great goal for her to work towards, along with many other AA archers discovering, or re-discovering this sport.

Personally, it would be a highlight of my life to shoot a mixed team event with her at Nationals someday. 

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Great discussion here with a number of great points made!

Would love to see the events split.....being selfish, but I want to shoot and coach! I'll give up the shooting to coach, but if I could have both....

Minimum Qualifying scores or pins....don't know how we could really validate this, but I like the idea. I'd like it to be a suggestion, perhaps a middle of the pack score, that parents and archers can use to decide if attending is worth the time and money. It hurts to watch kids show up to events and get completely crushed because they are so new....

SB


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"As a parent, I've never sent my kid off to a tournament unless he knew he could shoot the distance. As a coach, I have never sent off a student to a tournament unless they could shoot the distance. No arrow searching, no issues (save for equipment failures), nada. I feel that it's my job as a coach and dad to prep my archers to know what to do and how to do it."_

Totally agree. It's not that hard to look up results from the previous year and compare them with your scores or your student's/child's scores and see if you or your student/child have any real business entering Nationals. To throw a child into a situation that he/she is not ready for (skill and/or mentally) is irresponsible.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think we're getting a little off track. Responsible, or irresponsible, USArchery is about to be faced with a serious problem. How to accommodate 1000+ archers at one event! As many events as our host clubs run, whether nationally or statewide, each year, who is going to volunteer to run an event with 1000, 1100, 1200 or more participants of every age, distance and skill level? How many can we reasonably, or SHOULD WE reasonably have competing at US Nationals? 

We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. I'm absolutely sure USASwimming has already gone through this, as have other sports. What do they do? Do they throw a brand new 11 year-old in the same pool as a seasoned 12 year old junior who has been doing flip turns for 4 years at their nationals? I seriously doubt it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This wouldn't be that hard to do either. For JOAD Nationals, the kids are supposed to be enrolled in a JOAD program, right? That means they have a JOAD leader who can sign their registration form, certifying that they have achieved their minimum qualifying score at some point in the past 12 months. 

Done.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Beastmaster said:


> 2) Where do coaches and parents draw the line between going to something like Nationals and sticking with more local/regional tournaments?


Just a point...........local tournaments often resemble a back-of-the-matchbox event in our area, so the event all too often becomes a very loosely run get together for the good old boys. As for "Regional" tournaments, that doesn't happen if you live anywhere other than the Southeast, Southwest, or the West Coast. Our minimum travel distance this year was 1100 miles one way.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

My wife and I were talking about this after JOAD practice this evening. This could actually be a way for USArchery to host even more archers with additional (non-USAT) events set up specifically as regional qualifying events for U.S. Nationals. So, for example, a kid or adult could shoot a qualifying score at their state outdoor event, or if they are cadets or older, at a USAT event, or if they can't do that, they could attend one of the regional qualifying events set up specifically to offer a chance to qualify for Nationals. 

When a qualifying score was required to attend the Olympic trials, this was commonplace. A qualifying score (rather pedestrian, I may add) could be shot at any of the USAT ranking events, or at any number of other qualifying events that were being held. Some qualifying events were even hosted at the last minute, just to give folks a chance to shoot a qualifying score for the trials. 

I know our club would love an excuse to host a regional qualifying event each year for U.S. Nationals or JOAD Nationals.

So, there's already a precendent of a qualifying score requirement actually INCREASING the number of events available to archers, which I think we would all agree was a very good thing.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. I'm absolutely sure USASwimming has already gone through this, as have other sports. What do they do? Do they throw a brand new 11 year-old in the same pool as a seasoned 12 year old junior who has been doing flip turns for 4 years at their nationals? I seriously doubt it.


Hehe...here's the link and the text for USA Swimming...
------
NATIONAL MEET STANDARDS 

In order to qualify for USA Swimming's National Meets (including the AT&T Short Course National Championships, Junior National Championships, ConocoPhillips National Championships (LCM), and Junior National Championships (LCM)), swimmers must first post a qualifying time during the qualifying period. These time standards or "cuts" are set before the swim season begins, and can be found in this section.

http://www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=1472&Alias


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beast, that's exactly what I expected to find. Thanks for finding it for me. 

Folks, this is all I'm talking about. It just makes sense, and is what so many parents, media and non-archers expect. 

Again, I think it's a good thing. A positive thing to motivate those who have an interest in attending nationals, a way to raise the profile of nationals, and also, a GREAT tool for those parents who's kids are really on the fence about going. Rather than argue with their kids because they are about to spend $2K on a trip that the kids aren't really prepared for or invested in, it's a whole lot better if those parents have a simple tool like this - to tell them "if you can qualify for nationals, we will go." End of discussion.

John


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

Or check out the junior Olympic program from USASHOOTING. 

http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/njosc



> The National Junior Olympic program provides competitions year-round for shooters to partake in. The program runs matches throughout the country, making it accessible for all interested juniors. Junior shooters are able to participate in State Competitions sanctioned by USA Shooting, allowing them the chance to receive an invitation to shoot at the National Junior Olympic Championships hosted by USA Shooting in Colorado Spring, Colorado. The program serves as an important element of our pipeline development system in promoting the shooting sports. Junior Olympic goals are to allow the skilled junior athletes to obtain National competitive experience for future development. The program also serves as an opportunity to appoint the top finishers to the National Junior Team.
> 
> The National Junior Olympic Rifle & Pistol program runs from fall to early spring, with the NJOSC held in April. The National Junior Olympic Shotgun program runs from late spring to mid-summer, with the NJOSC held in June.


Basically, juniors need to shoot qualify round to get invited to the Junior Olympic National Championship. They set cut off scores earlier in the season. Juniors who shot the cut off score or better would automatic be invited. Then if there still be space available, the second cut off score will be announced (lower scores)

For USAS national championship, it is a separate match and is an open tournament, held on different date and location.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Here in Florida, we just had our first JOAD state championship....

I think if we could have as many states as possible do this, then archers would have a place to "qualify" that would be in reach of them to get that score. Without a regional system, I would suspect there would be a lot of people just signing off on the sheet so everyone could go. The archer could then go to as many events as they need to get their qualifying score, while keeping costs to the family down....

Roll those events in with the USAT events and there are multiple chances for everyone to get a minimum qualifying score.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Lots of excellent points made. I have no issue and really would rather prefer that our National Championship be a special and aspirational tournament. 

I find it a bit ironic that there is this push for excellence in our outdoor championship, but many of you folks are categorically opposed to having our indoor championship be determined by the same types of criteria. A mail in tournament is no way to conduct a national championship.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

tournaments are expensive to run. If you cut the numbers down too much you are going to lose interest in bidding for a nationals. Its a fine line between being not selective enough (and believe me I know-I'm the one who spent hours and hours finding the arrows of 3-4 kids who were leaking 3-4 shots EACH END last year at the EJN) If a kid cannot hit the target the vast majority of the time he or she shoots, they are not ready for the tournament. HOwever, I can see the other side as even more deleterious-the people who for example think that if you aren't an RA or JDT you shouldn't be allowed to try out for the Senior National Team or shoot at various trials


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, I don't think anyone here is proposing we turn it into an event for just RA's and JDT kids. Far from it. My suggestion that a kid or AA archer earns the equivalent of their blue achievement pin is far from a stringent requirement. For goodness' sake, my daughter is THE top 11-12 year old swimmer in a three county area by quite a margin, and she would BARELY qualify for US Swimming Nationals in the lowest bracket! What I'm proposing is miles from that criteria.

You're also suggesting that too few archers will break an event. How can that be? We make enough money when we host our state JOAD outdoor or indoor events that I feel guilty that other clubs are losing out on the source of revenue. And we only charge $30/archer!!! 

Again, I'm not suggesting we whittle the field down to an "Olympic trials sized" event, but rather keep it in a more manageable 400 or so participant range that will FIT ON A FIELD. We cannot just keep blindly moving on because in all likelihood, next year we may see 750-800 registrations, and the year after that 1000. Where are you going to put them all? Who wants to manage an event with 1000 archers on one shooting line? As I've said, USArchery has already demonstrated they cannot handle the 600+ they have now very well at all. Remember the comments of the JOAD parents after Nationals last year? Many of them just left and won't be back because of how poorly the event was run!



> Without a regional system, I would suspect there would be a lot of people just signing off on the sheet so everyone could go.


Scott, I don't see this happening very often. As a JOAD program leader, I take my responsibility to manage the JOAD and AA program very seriously. I would think my coach certification would be on the line were I to falsely certify an archer's qualifications. At least, it should be. And it only serves to help the child and their parents anyway, by giving the child (or adult archer) a goal, making sure they are suitably prepared for an event of that magnitude, and not wasting parents time and money on an event their kid hardly cares about because they know they have no chance of placing well and they have nothing invested in qualifying for it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So, we could easily take the results from last year's JOAD Nationals, apply the "blue pin" standard, and see what the cutoff would be. 

Last year the following archers would have qualified:
17 of 19 male bowman recurve
17 of 22 female bowman recurve
20 of 20 male junior recurve
20 of 27 female junior recurve
70 of 76 male cadet recurve
32 of 45 female cadet recurve
16 of 22 male cub recurve
15 of 19 female cub recurve

207 of 250

10 of 11 male compound bowman
4 of 4 female compound bowmen
10 of 10 male comound juniors
9 of 9 female compound juniors
26 of 27 male compound cadets
21 of 21 female compound cadets
12 of 12 male compund cubs
3 of 3 female compound cubs

95 of 97

(clearly the blue pin is MUCH easier to earn with compounds based on those statistics).

Not that significant of a change really. Perhaps since the achievement pin standard is age-neutral, different standards would be applied to different age divisions?

So even with the "blue pin" standard, that's still over 300 kids who would have attended JOAD Nationals last year. I'm sure it will be more this year. 

If we applied the same standard to the adults, I wonder what the number would be?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

John,

I think having a "third party" event to collect the score would be the easiest way to verify that the score was achieved. Just have the archer attend any local/state/regional meet where someone could sign off on the score. I think this would also go to make sure that scores at home hold up on the road and would be a valuable experience for the archer and the parents.

Not saying that a local JOAD club couldn't hold this type of event, or for that matter, hold one every weekend! Just something a little more formal than shooting a score in practice is what I am aiming for. About as close as I think we could get to simulating Nationals at home...

Overall, love the idea! Not opposed at all to kids coming to Nationals or a USAT event, but I've seen a bunch of very depressed kids at the last couple of events I've been to who have gotten in over their head/experience level. As a parent/coach, I understand that kids want to compete and parents are willing to pay, but I still feel bad when they are out contention for a personal best after the first end....


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I guess the question would be....

Should the standard mean that you are competitive/in contention or that you won't be searching for arrows and holding up the line?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott, I agree that state/regional or even local qualifiers would be a great addition to our annual tournament schedule. It doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. Many of the qualifiers for the Olympic trials were not expensive or complicated at all.

I see a qualifying score as a lot more than just a way to determine an archer's competitiveness. In fact, that's the least of my worries. I'm more concerned about keeping Nationals manageable and raising the profile of the event in the eyes of archers, parents, spectators and media. Again, finding out that a kid does not have to shoot a qualifying score to be eligible for our National Championship gives our sport a "Bush league" appearance compared to other sports. If we want to be taken seriously AND be able to manage our National Championship event in the future, then I believe steps like these are in order.

Keeping a kid from quitting the sport out of embarassment, or keeping parents from having to look their child in the eye and come up with a reason they aren't ready to attend nationals, are just added benefits of a qualification system.

As a JOAD coach and parent, having a qualifying requirement for nationals is a WELCOME tool that I would love to have. I would have no issues with telling my daughter that as soon as she shoots a qualifying score, we can go to Nationals. I'm prepared to tell her the same thing with her swimming, so what's the difference? In my view, USASwimming has done me a favor!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Scott, I agree that state/regional or even local qualifiers would be a great addition to our annual tournament schedule. It doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. Many of the qualifiers for the Olympic trials were not expensive or complicated at all.
> 
> I see a qualifying score as a lot more than just a way to determine an archer's competitiveness. In fact, that's the least of my worries. I'm more concerned about keeping Nationals manageable and raising the profile of the event in the eyes of archers, parents, spectators and media. Again, finding out that a kid does not have to shoot a qualifying score to be eligible for our National Championship gives our sport a "Bush league" appearance compared to other sports. If we want to be taken seriously AND be able to manage our National Championship event in the future, then I believe steps like these are in order.
> 
> ...



​I can't agree more!


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

Love the idea. Maybe the JOAD state championships could be use as qualify rounds for each states. But if any states don't have one, juniors from the states are allowed to qualify at the other state and report the scores to USAA rep in their own states. 
After the first cut off, if there are still have space avaiable, set the second cut off by lower the qualify score. Then we will have the field filled.

I like the way that junior will have a goal to aim for. Last year was my daughter first year of archery, so I asked about how to qualify for indoor national, and the answer was, "No qualify round, just submit the application, show up on the day and shoot". I was really surprised.
My son is in competitve shooting. Last april he was invited to compete in National JO shooting championship in Colorado Springs. He checked the cut off scores and the scores from previous year. Then he set the goal and practiced hard. He signed in and compete in JO state championship, shot qualify score and got invited to the national. Well, he did not win the national, but if was a great experience for him and other juniors, and he is looking forward to do that again next year.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Lots of excellent points made. I have no issue and really would rather prefer that our National Championship be a special and aspirational tournament.
> 
> I find it a bit ironic that there is this push for excellence in our outdoor championship, but many of you folks are categorically opposed to having our indoor championship be determined by the same types of criteria. A mail in tournament is no way to conduct a national championship.


If I had solo control of Indoor Nationals, I'd do this....

1) do the regionals. Top 10 in each category/class at each regional will head off to Nationals.

2) Nationals can be held in a decent sized location. If Louisville can handle NFAA Nationals, a similar sized location can house USA Archery Indoor Nats.

Or

All regions hold their regions on the same weekend. This eliminates the issue of waiting for regions to shoot their event and making things drag out for a length of time.


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

So the juniors will have their goals to look for: practice hard, shoot qualify score at JO state champ and get invited to the National match.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> If I had solo control of Indoor Nationals, I'd do this....
> 
> 1) do the regionals. Top 10 in each category/class at each regional will head off to Nationals.
> 
> ...


I think Bob Pian also advocated for regional qualifiers. I like the idea.


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

I think only State champions and score qualifiers (first cut) are automatically invited to national. If space still available annouce second cut off score to fill in the field. 

If we get only the top ten, that would not be fair for some big states with a lot of shooters. For example: CA might have 30 archers in bowman recurve female compete in State JO, while Maryland might have only 5 (with 3 new shooters). If the top ten get invited, Maryland would have all 5 shooters go to national, no matter how they shoot at the state qualifier match.

Earlier this year @ JMU indoor JOAD regional. There are only 6 juniors competed in female recurve bowman division!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

maxicooper said:


> Love the idea. Maybe the JOAD state championships could be use as qualify rounds for each states. But if any states don't have one, juniors from the states are allowed to qualify at the other state and report the scores to USAA rep in their own states.
> After the first cut off, if there are still have space avaiable, set the second cut off by lower the qualify score. Then we will have the field filled.
> 
> I like the way that junior will have a goal to aim for. Last year was my daughter first year of archery, so I asked about how to qualify for indoor national, and the answer was, "No qualify round, just submit the application, show up on the day and shoot". I was really surprised.
> My son is in competitve shooting. Last april he was invited to compete in National JO shooting championship in Colorado Springs. He checked the cut off scores and the scores from previous year. Then he set the goal and practiced hard. He signed in and compete in JO state championship, shot qualify score and got invited to the national. Well, he did not win the national, but if was a great experience for him and other juniors, and he is looking forward to do that again next year.


This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Your surprise at being able to just submit an application and shoot nationals is not unusual, and it was probably followed by a feeling that this sport isn't all that serious of a sport. And your story about your son setting a goal to qualify for nationals is fantastic. I think we would see plenty of this if we had a qualification requirement.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

maxicooper said:


> I think only State champions and score qualifiers (first cut) are automatically invited to national. If space still available annouce second cut off score to fill in the field.
> 
> If we get only the top ten, that would not be fair for some big states with a lot of shooters. For example: CA might have 30 archers in bowman recurve female compete in State JO, while Maryland might have only 5 (with 3 new shooters). If the top ten get invited, Maryland would have all 5 shooters go to national, no matter how they shoot at the state qualifier match.
> 
> Earlier this year @ JMU indoor JOAD regional. There are only 6 juniors competed in female recurve bowman division!


In my recommendation, regionals means keeping the system that has shoots in places like Seattle, Rio Rancho, JMU, Tulare, and others. States have no bearing on this. 

Qualify against your peers, shoot for a championship against them in identical conditions in one location.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

With regards to keeping Outdoor Nationals manageable....

If we keep the system the same, our current growth pattern will force the need to separate JOAD Outdoor and National Target Championships.

Just the sheer numbers will force this to occur.

Now, here's the catch. Will the kids get screwed even more when that happens?

And yes, I use the word "screwed" purposefully and with care. There are other pejorative words I could use, but the forum software would block it. 

All kidding and seriousness aside, kids seem to get the short stick. Even my own son has been vocal about that directly to Denise. I hope as USA Archery grows in employee count, this will change.


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

Beastmaster said:


> In my recommendation, regionals means keeping the system that has shoots in places like Seattle, Rio Rancho, JMU, Tulare, and others. States have no bearing on this.
> 
> Qualify against your peers, shoot for a championship against them in identical conditions in one location.


:thumbs_up


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I like the idea of setting the minimum score rather than taking the top ten (or whatever) from each of the state shoots. That could lead to parents spending more money taking their kid to another state where the competition isn't as strong to help guarantee their child a spot at the nationals. If we set the minimum score, it won't matter what the competition does.

The other problems I see with taking the top ten is Bobby in California shoots a 300 and gets placed 12th, but Joe in Louisiana gets 8th with a 280. If I were Bobby, I'd be a little upset. Take Susie in Idaho who has been consistently placed 8 or 9 in her goes to State and gets knocked out because two young ladies from neighboring states came over to make sure they get in. Again, if I were Susie, I'd be a very confused individual, but would still be upset.

I think we also need to make sure the definition of qualifying event is broad as well. I'd hate to think a family would give up on going to Nationals just because they can't afford to go to both State and Nationals. I would open it up to any USAA recognized event. They're easy to setup and run so everyone can have a chance to achieve the goal.

On a semi-related note, I find it interesting that this conversation is about keeping people out of Nationals while we've had so many conversations about making sure everyone gets a chance to play in general. I understand and agree with the desire to keep the national competitions to a manageable size and also to make sure the top competition in the country is not being held up by persons who don't have their act together. I just find the dichotomy interesting.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I would still love to see state individuals/teams represented at Nationals by qualifying locally and potentially helping with funding from state organizations. Make the team rounds truly a team event rather than Olympic Teams/RAs against anyone who can throw together a team. Make it official....


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Attach the qualifier count to the electoral college vote percentage?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed...

-Steve



Mulcade said:


> I like the idea of setting the minimum score rather than taking the top ten (or whatever) from each of the state shoots. That could lead to parents spending more money taking their kid to another state where the competition isn't as strong to help guarantee their child a spot at the nationals. If we set the minimum score, it won't matter what the competition does.


My original intent (specifically for Indoor Nationals) is to take each region and take the top 10 from there. States are irrelevant in this case.



> The other problems I see with taking the top ten is Bobby in California shoots a 300 and gets placed 12th, but Joe in Louisiana gets 8th with a 280. If I were Bobby, I'd be a little upset. Take Susie in Idaho who has been consistently placed 8 or 9 in her goes to State and gets knocked out because two young ladies from neighboring states came over to make sure they get in. Again, if I were Susie, I'd be a very confused individual, but would still be upset.


This may sound a bit cruel, but if someone continually placed 8 or 9 in a state championship tournament, expectations shouldn't be set for a stellar performance in a national spotlight. Hence why a regional type qualifier makes sense. You can't really BS your way into things as easy when you're competition is being drawn from a larger talent pool.

This also makes more sense for a MQS. You make a MQS, you have a decent chance of making it in a National basis.



> I think we also need to make sure the definition of qualifying event is broad as well. I'd hate to think a family would give up on going to Nationals just because they can't afford to go to both State and Nationals. I would open it up to any USAA recognized event. They're easy to setup and run so everyone can have a chance to achieve the goal.


More commentary that may sound crass. If people can do it in other sports, why would archery be any different? I see people blow three times as much money as my family does for softball. Why would costs have to be contained for archery, yet not for other sports? (Edit, three times for softball versus what I pay for in Archery.)



> On a semi-related note, I find it interesting that this conversation is about keeping people out of Nationals while we've had so many conversations about making sure everyone gets a chance to play in general. I understand and agree with the desire to keep the national competitions to a manageable size and also to make sure the top competition in the country is not being held up by persons who don't have their act together. I just find the dichotomy interesting.


There are some that would not consider my child one of the top competitors in the nation. Yet he can do a scorecard, he can keep all his arrows on the bale, and he can keep pace with others. To me, that's the minimum that I would expect of any archery competitor. Unfortunately, that bare minimum isn't being kept at all.

Is the National Target Championships/EJN something that should be developmental, or is it where the best show up to see who can slug it out for the king of the hill? Playing a debating role here, you can't have it both ways.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> On a semi-related note, I find it interesting that this conversation is about keeping people out of Nationals while we've had so many conversations about making sure everyone gets a chance to play in general. I understand and agree with the desire to keep the national competitions to a manageable size and also to make sure the top competition in the country is not being held up by persons who don't have their act together. I just find the dichotomy interesting.


You're looking at this suggestion the wrong way, I think. Qualifying events would create MORE opportunities for new archers, not fewer. This suggestion is to elevate the profile of Nationals, primarily, with the added benefit of making it more manageable so that it can be run more professionally than it is today. I don't think anyone who has spent much time at JOAD nationals would tell you it looks like a legitimate National Championship event. Not the way it's run today. 

I'd be against regional representatives, as it would create unfair qualification criteria. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. USArchery has ALREADY used minimum qualifying scores at sanctioned events as criteria to register for Olympic trials. Our National Championship event should be no less special.

In Texas, we're experiencing great success with our new Texas Outdoor Target Series (TOTS) and each archer shoots 36 arrows at their normal OR distance during that one-day 108-arrow event. So, it would be easy for a kid to get at least one chance per month here in Texas to qualify for Nationals with a 36-arrow score at their OR distance. Whatever we decided it should be...

These are low-key, but officially run, TSAA events. Any state, or JOAD club could easily do the same to create qualifying events for Nationals. Frankly, all it's going to do is give kids a reason to practice more, and shoot more, and make Nationals a true championship event instead of one really big combined JOAD social experiment.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Matt Z said:


> I would still love to see state individuals/teams represented at Nationals by qualifying locally and potentially helping with funding from state organizations. Make the team rounds truly a team event rather than Olympic Teams/RAs against anyone who can throw together a team. Make it official....


I'd love to see that too, but it's far more complicated. But there could be both - a way for an individual archer to qualify for nationals as an individual archer, and also a way to qualify for a state or regional team. I wish our sport had a better way to shoot more team events. Maybe a mixed team event like they have in fita field, where the top recurver, barebow archer, and compounder from each state combine to shoot as a team. Now, there's an interesting idea...


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Maybe a mixed team event like they have in fita field, where the top recurver, barebow archer, and compounder from each state combine to shoot as a team. Now, there's an interesting idea...


OH MAN! Sign me up for that


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, me too. But i'd write in fine print that it had to be their birth state so Vic could only shoot for Illinois.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I bet folks would stick around to watch the team event if they had the top archer of each dicipline representing their state.  Might just be some screaming and yelling there too  ha, ha. 

One thing is for sure - it would be a way to make barebow relevant at Nationals again!

You know what, that idea ain't half bad either. I mean, we'd only need 16 states to field a full men's and women's team for a full bracket. I think we could do that.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The North Region does something like this at their target championship. The top 2 recurve scores and the top 2 compound scores from each state are added together and a winning state is determined. It has really caught on and now there is a state rivalry that draws archers to the tournament. Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois have fielded teams in the past. It is a blast.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That sounds like fun, but I'd rather see 3-person, head to head elimination team matches with live cheering. Now that would be something to watch. If only the barebow archer could handle all the groans from the crowd when they shoot a 7 at 70 meters! LOL.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> You're looking at this suggestion the wrong way, I think. Qualifying events would create MORE opportunities for new archers, not fewer. This suggestion is to elevate the profile of Nationals, primarily, with the added benefit of making it more manageable so that it can be run more professionally than it is today. I don't think anyone who has spent much time at JOAD nationals would tell you it looks like a legitimate National Championship event. Not the way it's run today.
> 
> I'd be against regional representatives, as it would create unfair qualification criteria. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. USArchery has ALREADY used minimum qualifying scores at sanctioned events as criteria to register for Olympic trials. Our National Championship event should be no less special.
> 
> ...


I really like the idea of kids qualifying for the Nationals -- but I think that this will lead to more kids going to the Nationals -- not less. Once they know that they've qualified for the Nationals, they'll really want to go.

In my daughter's first year of archery, she went to the Nationals as a cub because other parents encouraged us to do so and said it would be a great experience. She did OK (which to her meant not last) but was a few months away from meeting John's criteria for entry (blue pin). So I think that the Blue Pin level for a cub is very reasonable. (Probably too much for a bowman though, because of that 50 meter distance.)

In her second year of archery, our club coach set a recommended bar of shooting a 275 at the longest distance before even committing to training for the Nationals. That's pretty discouraging, and we're not heat-tolerant people, so I didn't take her to last year's Nationals. Despite that, she continued to practice diligently and achieved her red pin shortly afterwards and shot a very good score at our subsequent state outdoor tournament. (She had no competition at that tournament but had a specific score goal in mind.)

I think that the gathering and meeting purpose of the Nationals is probably better served for us by the Las Vegas Indoor tournament. We did that this year and probably will go next year as well.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

All very good points. And I agree the social aspects of Vegas or Louisville outweigh those of NAA Outdoor Nationals. At least the way it's run now. When folks were staying in dorms and eating at the cafeterias in Oxford, well, that sounds like a much better time in many ways than shooting on a city soccer field and everyone scattering in every direction to their hotel rooms.

Why we can't commandeer a college (even Jr. College) athletic field, dorm and cafeteria for a week every year is beyond me. Even if we just used the athletic fields, the community and college would surely welcome 600-1000 people for a week, right? I mean, archers aren't exactly bikers (no offense to bikers). We're not talking Sturgis here.

As far as qualification leading to an increase in participation, I think it's likely it will increase INTEREST in participating, but by managing the qualifying score, you can pretty well determine from year to year how many in each division you could expect based on the previous year's scores. Naturally, over time, the qualifying scores would, and should, go up in each division. 

John


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## Phyrmon (Mar 5, 2011)

"Why we can't commandeer a college (even Jr. College) athletic field, dorm and cafeteria for a week every year is beyond me. Even if we just used the athletic fields, the community and college would surely welcome 600-1000 people for a week, right? I mean, archers aren't exactly bikers (no offense to bikers). We're not talking Sturgis here."

I've often wondered about this as well. Most dorm rooms are empty in the summer months, it's a no brainer way for the school to make money. I stayed at the college in Yankton, SD at Nationals in 2011 and am staying in the dorms of a university in Belfast for the World Police/Fire Championships. And it's extremely affordable.


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## Phyrmon (Mar 5, 2011)

Additionally, John, I really like the idea of the 3 (or 4 )person inter-discipline team event. I had the pleasure of competing in one of these at the Utah Summer Games. It was a blast!! Since it was a captive audience, after the individual events, the tournament directors placed a recurve, compound, JOAD, and one additional discipline together in mixed (gender and discipline) teams and then we went at it at 30 meters for (i think) six ends. And there was quite a bit of excitement in the event, one of the brightest moments of competition I ever had.

I love this idea.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Phyrmon, I agree it would be very interesting to watch and exciting to shoot in. It's not a new idea. They do this in fita field competition. Why not just carry it over to Outdoor Nationals? The team rounds now don't mean anything to anyone really. Esp. when they are randomly assigned. But if you took the top compound, recurve and barebow qualifier from each state, put them on a team, and had the top 16 teams compete in a head-to-head matchplay event, now that would be archery worth watching. Of course, we'd have to find enough barebow archers, but then, aren't we trying to encourage barebow?


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## Phyrmon (Mar 5, 2011)

I may upset some people with this, but that is not my intent. It's an issue that several shooters and I discussed during my last tournament.

Along the lines of the qualifying score issue (which we all agreed is a good idea) there has not been a lot of "instruction", so-to-speak, on how to behave during tournaments. And this applies to both the youth archers AND their parents. Talking on the line, getting hit (repeatedly) by your neighbor's body or bow, leaving the line whenever they please, texting, phones ringing, parent's coaching from the stands while the child is on the line next to you, arguing with judges, putting their own personal bow stands wherever they please, etc.

It's like no one is telling them not to do these types of things. 

And I have found out the hard way this season, if you don't register EARLY, there is almost no chance of participating in some events. It's a bit frustrating (due to my schedule I can't plan that far in advance) to miss out on an event because the line is FILLED with new archers who are going to be missing the bale every end. At indoor nationals my personal goal was to average a 270 (not going to win anything, but not bad) while all down the line there is the continual clatter of arrows missing and hitting the floor and the accompanying laughter.

I don't know.... the money made obviously matters, but I really don't think it's in the best interest of the sport to allow just anyone with the entry fee to enter the National Championships. Regional qualifiers are done by other sports and are easy enough to facilitate. Woodley park and El Dorado have them at least once a month, sometimes with a couple dozen archers, sometimes with 8. But they are accredited USAT qualifiers, so why couldn't a score card from there count?

Or, even the score of XXX amount from (in my area or events I've entered):

Arizona Cup - Big
Gold Cup - Big
Tulare Cotton Boll - medium
Woodley Fita qualifier - small
El Dorado fita qualifier - small
Tulare Indoor Invitational
Indoor Nationals
California State Outdoor/Indoor
Pac Coast Championships
Excalibur Challenge (indoor)
Verdugo Hills 900
Utah Summer Games
etc, etc, etc....

Events big and small, but with a qualifying standard set for Nationals, you could "advance" from any of them. And I think John's standard of "Blue Pin" is sufficient.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You make your point beautifully.


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## LoveMyHoyt (Nov 29, 2008)

Here is an example --- For National Senior Games (held every 2 years in non-Olympic years), one does have to qualify in order to go. One has to shoot in their State Sr. Games event (or in another state if you can't make yours) during a qualifying year and shoot a qualifying score - which is actually a pretty minimal score. I think they also take the top 3 or 4 in each division. All in all, I think all but one person who shot in ours last year, qualified.
But I agree with John, we do need to have some way to limit our numbers to keep it managable. It will also make the event more prestigious as well as giving the non-qualifiers something to shoot for (pun intended ;-)


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

Two thoughts on ways to pick nationals shooters.

1. Why not use state shoots as qualifiers, then have states send their state champions (or top two/three of each division) as a "team" of shooters? States without organizations can go to neighboring states to shoot. This would create an interesting way to make the national tournament, as it would require shooters to support their local or nearest organizations to even get to nationals. And who doesn't want to help out the local state group that does so much for them already?

2. Take the top 32 from each division after all the USAT shoots and send just them to nationals. Or even top 64. It would put hotels for nationals late, but it would be, in theory, the "cream of the crop."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dacota,

#1 won't work. I thought of this years ago, but in states with many talented archers, you'd have too many staying home while much less talented archers from other states got to play. I agree it would be interesting, and if we were THAT concerned about state recognition, it would be the way to go, but it wouldn't be very fair to a lot of folks.

#2 USAT shoots could serve as qualifiers for Nationals the way the do/did for the Olympic trials, however Bowmen and Cubs don't shoot USAT events.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

LoveMyHoyt said:


> Here is an example --- For National Senior Games (held every 2 years in non-Olympic years), one does have to qualify in order to go. One has to shoot in their State Sr. Games event (or in another state if you can't make yours) during a qualifying year and shoot a qualifying score - which is actually a pretty minimal score. I think they also take the top 3 or 4 in each division. All in all, I think all but one person who shot in ours last year, qualified.
> But I agree with John, we do need to have some way to limit our numbers to keep it managable. It will also make the event more prestigious as well as giving the non-qualifiers something to shoot for (pun intended ;-)



Another great example, right here in our own sport. Those regional qualifiers are taken very seriously by those hoping to qualify for the senior games, and it causes them to work on their shooting much more than they may otherwise.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Dacota,
> 
> #1 won't work. I thought of this years ago, but in states with many talented archers, you'd have too many staying home while much less talented archers from other states got to play. I agree it would be interesting, and if we were THAT concerned about state recognition, it would be the way to go, but it wouldn't be very fair to a lot of folks.
> 
> #2 USAT shoots could serve as qualifiers for Nationals the way the do/did for the Olympic trials, however Bowmen and Cubs don't shoot USAT events.



1. I could see the talented archers staying home part being a problem. I still love the concept though. Would make for a unique change in things.

2. Why not add those divisions to the USAT events? Of course there's no USAT positions for those classes, but why not offer them chances to participate? It would only help encourage them to shoot more when they go these shoots, participate, and get to see all the best shooters also competing and see what they could be like someday.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Some minor statistical tidbits...from a 30,000 foot view

2012 Attendance:
619 Total archers registered

446 - JOAD
173 - Adults

2013 Attendance
693 registered

460 - JOAD
233 - Adults

It's a blended overall increase of about 12 percent (when you use rough, on the fly math). 

Youth - a 5 percent increase
Adults? 35 percent increase

Interesting, huh?

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> 2. Why not add those divisions to the USAT events? Of course there's no USAT positions for those classes, but why not offer them chances to participate? It would only help encourage them to shoot more when they go these shoots, participate, and get to see all the best shooters also competing and see what they could be like someday.


Or, why not just increase the number of tournaments overall by having qualifying events for Nationals.  

Or, just use the existing events as qualifiers (state indoor, state outdoor, TOTS, etc.)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve, it would have been more if they hadn't closed registration, I can assure you.

So what do they do next year? Close registration even earlier?

Participation in Nationals will need to be checked. That's inevitable. Do we want to regulate it by using a "first come-first served" registration process, or do we want to promote excellence and the idea of working toward a goal by requiring a qualification for the event? I choose the latter, but then, I probably give away my political views when I do that too...  LOL.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Archer 4 Life said:


> (snip)
> 2. Why not add those divisions to the USAT events? Of course there's no USAT positions for those classes, but why not offer them chances to participate? It would only help encourage them to shoot more when they go these shoots, participate, and get to see all the best shooters also competing and see what they could be like someday.


There is a logistical challenge for stuff like that. Many USAT events are also world ranking events, and I believe that you're not able to do any other categories/classes other than World Archery recognized ones.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, it would have been more if they hadn't closed registration, I can assure you.
> 
> So what do they do next year? Close registration even earlier?
> 
> Participation in Nationals will need to be checked. That's inevitable. Do we want to regulate it by using a "first come-first served" registration process, or do we want to promote excellence and the idea of working toward a goal by requiring a qualification for the event? I choose the latter, but then, I probably give away my political views when I do that too...  LOL.


I like the MQS or qualification method myself. But that's me.

I find it interesting that in the web page for NTC/EJN, it specifically talks about this:



> Join USA Archery for the 129th U.S. National Target Championships, U.S. Open and Easton JOAD Nationals in Hamilton, Ohio! These events, which take place from July 10-14, allow first-time competitors to shoot alongside Olympic medalists, and enjoy the fun and excitement that are really what "Nationals" is all about!


Now, for first time shooters, the EJN side is separated from the NTC side. So - where does a new archer get a chance to shoot next to an Olympian unless they are on the practice field? (Note - Khatuna Lorig consistently hung around the practice field last year, so lots of kids were able to do exactly that....)


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Beastmaster said:


> Some minor statistical tidbits...from a 30,000 foot view
> 
> 2012 Attendance:
> 619 Total archers registered
> ...


Very surprising stats. I would have thought the bigger increase would be from the youth categories. Though im part of that 35%. A bit of insight on the topic is I picked up archery rather recently and when I figured out you could shoot at these big shoots just by paying your way in, I didnt think twice. Now of this 35% increase, I wonder how many would qualify for the "blue pin" standard.

Though as an aside, I wont be attending any tournaments next year that I cant drive to, so no nationals and no Texas/Florida. I figured out that there is such a thing as too many tournaments. Im not an Olympian and all this travel and planning has DEFINITELY impacted my performance.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

It would be interesting to see how much of the adult increase is due to those having children in the sport taking it up too.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

With the new requirement for clubs and shooters to be NAA members to hold events wouldn't that make even local events (outside of weekly club shoots) Registered Events? I think that one should qualify for Nationals as a right to make the trip, to say that you belong there. Does that make some people mad, yes, but its not called the US Open (in part, not in whole) and even in other sports events called US Opens the participants have to meet a certain level of qualification to participate...either by existing record or participating in a qualifying tournament so as to keep Nationals from being one's first BIG tournament (read important tournament).

I'd love to see something similar to golf's US Open qualifying. Local, regional, state etc qualifying events to qualify for a spot at nationals. This doesn't necessarily mean more events have to be held, although it would be nice to do so. Simply it means that since NAA clubs have to register each event they hold, deem those evens a local/regional US National Qualifyer. Any registered shoot can be designated a local or regional, as they currently are designated for FITA Star purposes. 

Blue Pin scores or better at Locals to qualify for an opportunity to shoot a Qualifying score at a Regional level meet. Shoot a qualifying score at Regionals to have the opportunity to attempt a qualifying score at State level. This doesn't mean that everyone has to qualify for their state tournament. It means that IF you want a chance to shoot at Nationals, YOU must shoot a Qualifying score at a local, regional and State levels in order to register for Nationals. If you accomplish both qualifying scores you receive a bid to enter Nationals.

A common rebutle that I see coming is that there are too many State Championships held after Nationals. That's fine....make it so that one would only have to shoot a qualifying score at a local event and either a regional or a state event in order for a bid to nationals. I see this doing several things for the sport. Thinning the lines a little at Nationals, making it a more elite tournament to attent. Increasing local, regional, and State level participation in order to go to nationals. And more exposure to shooters in pressure tournaments where written and unwritten codes of conduct are observed.....end result, Nationals is a true reflection of the name...a National event for the qualified shooter to compete in a professional atmosphere with their peers in pursuit of an prestigous title.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Back when I was the tournament director for US Nationals we had 64 targets on the adult field and 40 targets on the youth field. That is a total of 104 targets. We had 22 practice targets.
Now if you have 4 people per target, you could have 416 archers if you shoot one line. Now if you have two lines you could handle a total would be 832 targets.

Back in the late 90’s in Canton Michigan we had something like 800 archers. But that was a one-time thing. I do not know the number before that.
This will be the biggest Nationals in a long time. I am encouraged by these numbers this year. :set1_applaud:

This year I looked at the numbers. We will have around 230 on the AM and 229 on the PM line for the youth field. That would be 61 targets. (I think I counted some of the ones that withdrew)
Then on the adult field I am counting around 110 for both the AM and PM lines. That is around 30 targets.
The big thing will be to get the youth line done on time. I would suggest that the bowman and cubs take their score cards back to parents to have them do the math. That may speed things up.
But you cannot do much about the weather except complain about it. (I am sure someone will)
So I would suggest that we wait and see how things play out.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Steven Cornell said:


> Now if you have two lines you could handle a total would be 832 targets.


Sorry it should read 832 archers.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Steven Cornell said:


> Sorry it should read 832 archers.


we figured that out Steve:mg:

weather should be cooler this year but perhaps wetter. this pattern we are in now goes through next Friday

I wonder if USA will make any attempt to remedy the blatant unfairness of the mandatory team events when they put a good shooter with a middle of the road shooter against teams that have three (good, OK, and very weak)

I am not expecting any effort to make this event actually fair though


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> I wonder if USA will make any attempt to remedy the blatant unfairness of the mandatory team events when they put a good shooter with a middle of the road shooter against teams that have three (good, OK, and very weak)
> 
> I am not expecting any effort to make this event actually fair though


At the 2013 Chandler (AZ) JOAD Camp, Bob Pian and I set up the team event using a random number generator rather than using the traditional Good/Middle/Low methodology. As of the last known writing and update of the event description for the 2013 EJN, it's supposed to be a random method of creating the teams.

In prior years using the Good/Middle/Low methodology, teams that comprised of mostly middle of the road to higher end archers were able to win the event. In this case using random number generation, the same thing pretty much occurred...teams that had at least one higher end and one middle of the road archer were able to carry things through.

Not being on the scoring team for EJN (maybe that's a good thing!), I couldn't tell you what the basis is for this year's team setup. I do, however, have the resources (and so will Bob, since I believe he's working the event as one of the DoS'es) with me when we go out there to create a team event using random number generation.

Let's see how this all works out...

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> the blatant unfairness of the mandatory team events





> I am not expecting any effort to make this event actually fair though


Except all the portions of it that actually matter... 

Steve, what do you suggest when 1000 people want to sign up for Nationals?

What about the value of knowing one has to qualify for Nationals (to the archer, who will prepare better, to the parent and coach who won't have to worry about problems with unprepared archers, and to the media and onlookers who quite plainly, expect this)?


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Phyrmon said:


> "Why we can't commandeer a college (even Jr. College) athletic field, dorm and cafeteria for a week every year is beyond me. Even if we just used the athletic fields, the community and college would surely welcome 600-1000 people for a week, right? I mean, archers aren't exactly bikers (no offense to bikers). We're not talking Sturgis here."
> 
> I've often wondered about this as well. Most dorm rooms are empty in the summer months, it's a no brainer way for the school to make money. I stayed at the college in Yankton, SD at Nationals in 2011 and am staying in the dorms of a university in Belfast for the World Police/Fire Championships. And it's extremely affordable.


When the Nationals were in Oxford, it was a big deal for the town. It was a huge financial boost for the economy, and the town always looked forward to when the archers returned, and or had an extra event like an Olympic or World Trials......Collegiates too. If you do the math, it's a lot of money dropped into a local economy. I have often thought St. Joe's College in Rensselaer, IN would be a perfect type of small school, where everything could be in a centralized vicinity, and also bring the social aspect back to Outdoor Nationals.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Except all the portions of it that actually matter...
> 
> Steve, what do you suggest when 1000 people want to sign up for Nationals?
> 
> What about the value of knowing one has to qualify for Nationals (to the archer, who will prepare better, to the parent and coach who won't have to worry about problems with unprepared archers, and to the media and onlookers who quite plainly, expect this)?


I'm still gathering my thoughts on this. Some of this will be a bit fragmented until I get things down in a coherent train of thought.

The first thing through my mind is - USA Archery should hire a professional group that does nothing but run tournaments to run stuff like EJN and NTC. Yeah, this sorta/kinda kills the National Events Manager position (that's still open, from what I can tell). But for 1000 people, you need to have some sort of permutation where you're dealing with anywhere from 63 bales (ABCD line, 72 arrows a day, 2 days, AM and PM lines) to 250 bales (for a perfect situation of a single day ABCD FITA 144 and only AM or PM). 

Unless you're involved in one of the major USA based WR events, you're not going to get too many people that know what's going on and knows how to arrange things properly.

And, over time, USA Archery and Easton have burned out a lot of people that know and how to do the scoring and logistics side of the world. I won't name specific names, but I know first hand that there have been people that have gotten toasted one too many times.

1000 archers does mean that the event has to be run pretty smoothly. And it helps having judges and staff that know what's going on. No Judge Candidates unless they have worked something major in the past, like a National Championship (indoor or outdoor or field), World Trial, Olympic Trial, or something on that level.

With regards to the archer/parent/coach prep - the biggest things would be:

Archer - know the format, how many arrows, timing, math, and practice like crazy. Since getting back fromi SoCal, Spencer has been doing full 144 arrow practices every other day while indoor using scaled targets. He's been practicing scorecard work. He's been practicing using an archery timer off of his smartphone. All to prep for EJN.

Parents - know the format, how many arrows, timing, math, and keep your archer hydrated and fed. 

Coaches - know the format, how many arrows, timing, math, and keep your archer's head in the game, plus hydration.

I think it's harder for me to gather things, mainly since all of my students are past their blue pin (some are WAY past), and all could qualify pretty easily for most scenarios of a MQS for their age group/category/class. 

So, I'm going to ponder this while horizontal, and post up more tomorrow.

-Steve


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, what do you suggest when 1000 people want to sign up for Nationals?
> What about the value of knowing one has to qualify for Nationals (to the archer, who will prepare better, to the parent and coach who won't have to worry about problems with unprepared archers, and to the media and onlookers who quite plainly, expect this)?


So doing the math, with 1,000 archers, you have an AM and PM line would cut it to 500 each. 500/4=128 targets. That is 18 targets more than we had back in 2009.
But if we get to 1,000 just means that our sport has a bright future. The field they are using this year (Joyce Park) will hold that many targets and more.

It should be the job of the parents and coaches to prepare the archers for the Nationals. If they can not hold the bale or do the math then we should recommend that they do not go to Nationals. 
But we have an *open* Nationals. Here young archers get to go and be on the same field as their heroes. The past Olympians, Medal winners and those they have seen in videos, ArcheryTV and at the Olympics. It is a big deal for them.
I remember when my son was 12, he got to meet and get the Female Olympic Team to sign his new hat. He was thrilled. 
I use to ask these same people (heroes) to hand out the medals. They did may not know Darrell Pace or Rick McKinney, but they do know Brady, Jake, Jacob, Miranda, Jenny and Khatuna

IMHO - If you want to continue to grow this sport, I would leave the Nationals as an Open Tournament. Besides that is what they do in other countries.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

titanium man said:


> When the Nationals were in Oxford, it was a big deal for the town. It was a huge financial boost for the economy, and the town always looked forward to when the archers returned, and or had an extra event like an Olympic or World Trials......Collegiates too. If you do the math, it's a lot of money dropped into a local economy. I have often thought St. Joe's College in Rensselaer, IN would be a perfect type of small school, where everything could be in a centralized vicinity, and also bring the social aspect back to Outdoor Nationals.


Sounds great to me. See if you can get them to submit a bid! 



> Some of this will be a bit fragmented until I get things down in a coherent train of thought.


Unfortunately for me and my ADHD, I don't think I can wait that long... LOL! 



> But if we get to 1,000 just means that our sport has a bright future.


I guess I take exception to the idea that Nationals has to be the largest event of the year to promote the growth of our sport. Growth occurs at the local level, not by asking newbies and their families to spend $1500 on a single archery event.

State or regional qualifying events would see many more times than 1000 archers, meaning more archers will be involved in the process, and it would give many archers who can't afford the trip to compete in an official ranking event. There IS some satisfaction and reward in knowing you've qualified for a major event, even if you choose not to go. 



> IMHO - If you want to continue to grow this sport, I would leave the Nationals as an Open Tournament. Besides that is what they do in other countries.


Really? They don't even do that in other sports in THIS country, Steve.

Finally, you can split 1000 archers into a morning and afternoon line of 500 archers, but what about the length of the overall event? I mean, Nationals is already a whole week. Asking a group to manage 500 archers at a time is enough already, and then to ask them to do that twice a day, for an entire week? I agree with Bob that soon enough, JOAD and US Nationals will have to be split again. And when it is, I pray that USArchery gets it right by not having a situation where we don't really know who the true National Champions really are (like 2006).


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Really? They don't even do that in other sports in THIS country, Steve.
> 
> I mean, Nationals is already a whole week


I have not done the research on what they do in other sports. If you do then you have to look at sports that would compare to archery.
The bigger sports like swimming (ect) are comparing apples to oranges. IMHO

Remember when we had a double FITA. That was a full week and people got upset when USAA got rid of that. Then the JOAD portion was just a JrUSAT shoot.
Almost 30 years ago the NAA started the separate JOAD Nationals. It would move from Reagion to Region. People want to know why we had two Nationals. 
Then the JOAD Committee recommended it be combined.

You can not may everyone happy. 
If you want change ArcheryTalk is not the place. People need to do in by going to the annual meeting, posting on USAA Facebook or on their website, or run for a board position. 

With that I will see everyone at Nationals.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You can not may everyone happy.


I've heard this comment used as an excuse for inaction in USArchery far too many times.



> If you want change ArcheryTalk is not the place. People need to do in by going to the annual meeting, posting on USAA Facebook or on their website, or run for a board position.


Many of us here do participate in all the things you mention. I volunteered to be the state JOAD coordinator this year. Do you think I've heard from USArchery, or the regional JOAD coordinator so far this year? Nope. I doubt they even know I'm the state JOAD coordinator. Also, if you don't think this forum is read by nearly all those in USArchery that make decisions, you're kidding yourself. It is. But most of them will never admit it.

John


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## dibscalled (Dec 16, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Finally, you can split 1000 archers into a morning and afternoon line of 500 archers, but what about the length of the overall event? I mean, Nationals is already a whole week. Asking a group to manage 500 archers at a time is enough already, and then to ask them to do that twice a day, for an entire week? I agree with Bob that soon enough, JOAD and US Nationals will have to be split again. And when it is, I pray that USArchery gets it right by not having a situation where we don't really know who the true National Champions really are (like 2006).


I wasn't around in 2006, did several searches and came up empty. Really curious what happened in '06.
Don't wish to make waves so send private message if it makes more sense.
thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

All that I mean by that is in years (like 2006) when the U.S. Nationals and JOAD Nationals are seperate events, and U.S Nationals includes youth divisions, there are effectively two "National Champions" - one from U.S. Nationals, and one from JOAD Nationals. And that is a problem IMO. 

My suggestion would be to make them seperate events once again, and to allow cadet and juniors to shoot in U.S. Nationals as another Jr. USAT ranking event the way the TX Shootout/SoCal/Gator Cup, etc. are. 

For that to make sense, JOAD Nationals would need to follow U.S. Nationals. 

I would put U.S. Nationals and JOAD Nationals back-to-back in the same week. Same venue, one setup, two events, minimum cost. Use a small college campus for the venue and rent their dorms and cafeteria. JOAD's shoot practice the afternoon of the U.S. Open, so they can get there early to watch the top shooters in the morning if they want to.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

And, in theory, the Indoor Nationals and JOAD Indoor have a similar issue, albeit that Indoor Nationals use the more difficult inner 10 standard across the board, irrespective of your age group.

One could claim that by winning JOAD Indoors, you have won a national championship. Some people I've talked to say that the true indoor national championship is Indoor Nationals (inner 10).


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Many sports have double national championships. Table Tennis has a national championship (closed) a US Open and a Junior Olympic event. so a kid could be the US national Champion, the open Champion and the Jr Olympic Champion

Squash has a US Closed and a US Open for kids.

as to big events, before it moved to Sparta, Illinois (I wonder if the state government will one day destroy that venue), the Grand American Trapshoot was at Vandalia, OHio-50 minutes up the road from where US Nationals will be in a few days. 6000 people shot the big event (the Grand American Handicap) and thousands shot the other main events such as the 200 target Clay Target Championship of America, the Doubles Championship etc. While American Trap is not an Olympic event, you had world class champions shooting next to Class C shooters. The US Shooting Championships (International Events) were the same way. AT the 1988 Nationals which also served as the trials for the Seoul games, one squad I was on (the last day its peer squadded like NAA Nationals) included the Defending Olympic Gold Medalist (Matt Dryke) and 1976 rifle silver medalist Margaret Murdoch (she wasn't quite world class in Skeet but still an honor to shoot with her). While there was a Minimum Qualifying score to guarantee entry, the event often had openings for those who didn't. 

at the Camp Perry national rifle championships, it was even more open. 

so many shooting sports are the same as our archery


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, whatever makes the most folks happy is fine with me. I'm just offering alternatives. Suggestions to think about. Of course, as deep as we're in it in my household, and my JOAD club, we'll be attending regardless, which is what allows venues and formats that it seems nobody likes, to continue.  

But whatever the venue or format, I still think there should be a qualification criteria. As a parent and JOAD coach, I wish for one.


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