# Has Brady made the switch?



## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Don't know for sure, but I had heard that Lee had everyone cross training periodically. All the top shooters were practising with compound and release. What I understood (and find myself) is no truer way to feel back tension than getting that back tension release to go off while holding/pulling into the wall, and not cheating the release.

But again, that was from outside the inner circle.

And not related to the leg, Hard to shoot a full length recurve from a chair, I find I need to use a bar stool (not in a bar).


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

All I have to say about that is "Ouch!" =/


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I wouldn't blame him, he'd do really well.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Doesn't look like arthroscopic work on that knee. Wow? Looks like he survived a plane crash. 
Anyone know what happened?


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## akfeathers82 (Jan 4, 2015)

He started in compound before he went to recurve didn't he? He wouldn't be the only recurve shooter working compound, Khatuna Lorig shared several pics and videos of herself shooting compound the last couple of years. It's always good to diversify. 

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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Brady already has one world championship as a compound archer. He's no stranger to that rig. In fact, he didn't start shooting recurve until just a few years before he made the Beijing team. 

And I'm sure he's just playing around until his knee heals. I am sure there are a whole bunch of compound pros that pray he is anyway. LOL.


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## TwentySix (Feb 25, 2011)

And he hunts with a compound.


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## sdcoyote (Oct 19, 2016)

Follow-thru photo on facebook is similar to his follow-thru with the recurve.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> Doesn't look like arthroscopic work on that knee. Wow? Looks like he survived a plane crash.
> Anyone know what happened?


He injured it in the athlete village while in Rio. When he won the individual medal, his knee was taped up like a duct tape madman wraps up a silver mummy.

Surgery was done to fix the damage on a trip to Colorado Springs.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Brady already has one world championship as a compound archer. He's no stranger to that rig. In fact, he didn't start shooting recurve until just a few years before he made the Beijing team.
> 
> And I'm sure he's just playing around until his knee heals. I am sure there are a whole bunch of compound pros that pray he is anyway. LOL.


There is a part of me that is hoping he goes back to his 3D roots and destroys the competition there.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Keeshond said:


> Doesn't look like arthroscopic work on that knee. Wow? Looks like he survived a plane crash.
> Anyone know what happened?


Looks like a same side patellar graft to replace an ACL. That way all the pain is concentrated one leg.  I had the same reconstruction - two sets of stitches and all done arthroscopic.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Maybe he doesn't want to be the second best compound shooter in his family for the rest of his life :smile:


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## Dad (Apr 11, 2004)

Ouch!!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Jim C said:


> Maybe he doesn't want to be the second best compound shooter in his family for the rest of his life :smile:


:shade: :banana::set1_rolf2::cheers:


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

maybe the Olympics should have a compound bow-release division ?


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Pete53 said:


> maybe the Olympics should have a compound bow-release division ?


:deadhorse


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Pete53 said:


> maybe the Olympics should have a compound bow-release division ?


good luck with that. they won't even add squash to the olympics even though far more countries compete in that because they say its not spectator friendly. Anything that the USA is more likely to get medals in is going to face a tough challenge: most of the sports recently added involve girls in swimsuits or leotards (trampoline, synchro diving, beach volleyball) or ones that the USA doesn't dominate (6 person Rugby) or ones that have huge TV audiences (Golf)

compound archery has none of the above


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Wouldn't doubt he's seriously investing in compound after his response to Crispin's FB post about international archers not being able to complete is US elimination rounds...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Matt Z said:


> Wouldn't doubt he's seriously investing in compound after his response to Crispin's FB post about international archers not being able to complete is US elimination rounds...


what was the post exchange?


Chris


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> what was the post exchange?
> 
> 
> Chris


Brady wasn't very happy about the change and basically inferred that he wouldn't shoot for the US target team, He also said that the outside archers didn't really affect the final outcome any different than juniors did. When your at the top this kind of change wouldn't but those climbing the ranks it certainly does. I am sure it will sort itself out when things cool down abit


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Can someone post a link to the facebook exchange?
Thanks,
CP


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I looked, its private unless you are friends with Crispin on facebook.


Chris


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## luckycharlie (Nov 29, 2010)

Casualfoto said:


> Can someone post a link to the facebook exchange?
> Thanks,
> CP


Here are some of Brady's responses to the Facebook post. This facebook post had a bunch of responses from Recurve and Compound professional archers. 

"..... Brady Ellison Having non us people shoot does not effect our ranking anymore than juniors shooting or anyone who goes to a shoot and is not ranked. This ruling comes from people getting beat and being upset about it. I am in complete disagreement with this decision. I HATE it! All of our wold championship teams are made up of same people on World Cup teams unless Jessi make the team and he is not nationally ranked. Or hye un who made the top three spots for women Olympic and she was not ranked but they are good enough to be. When we have closed shoots the same people make the teams. All this does is weaken our shoots and take away opportunity for people
To compete. I am disgusted by this and not very happy with the people who voted for it. I am trying to decided right now on wether or not I will continue to shoot for the US or shoot target. Maybe people should spend the time they do complaining on shooting so they are better instead of trying to make teams by sitting on the couch and making phone calls. I'm out.
....."

"..... Brady Ellison How does being beat by an international person make any more difference than if you get beat. By a junior or somebody who is not ranked. You end up with the exact same problem. Yet non of that was looked at just everyone blames the international shooters. Honestly you mess up the ranking system just as much as a foreigner. Your not ranked and your a good shooter. So when you come to a usat event and beat people you are taking away there rank. Same same.

...."


"....
Brady Ellison So I have spent all day yesterday researching this. USA archery archives suck to go through. Any way this is what I did. Went through and found everyone who was ranked in the top 4 at the beginning of the year for a world championship year. 09,11,13,15. We had two different systems so for 09,11 I used rolling rank that decided World Cup teams and not usat teams. So using the system that selects our worldcup team. Under rolling rank it was just arrow average and no international influence at all. The current system we all know. Anyway this is what I found for the last 8 years of World Cup teams under two different systems and our closed trials system that has been the same for most of it. 48 spots were awarded for world team. 4 teams 4 divisions 3 spots per division. 42 of those 48 spots were taken by people at the beginning of that year being on the World Cup team. Top 4 ranked. Out of the 6 spots that were taken by people not in the top 4 at the beginning of the year 4 of those people ended up ranked in the top for at then end of the year or at the time of world trials. So only 2 spots out of 48 were given to people who were not ranked at all or not in the top 4 at the beginning of the year or end of that year. Under two different ranking system the rolling rank with just arrow average and no international influence and the current system had the exact same variances. 1 each for non ranked and 2 that were not in top 4 by beginning of year but were at the end of the year. The women compound had the highest variances while the other three divisions were all the same. And for Olympic teams we have had 15 spots for last 3 olympics. All 25 spots where taken by people where ranked top 3 in the system. So the way we selected World Cup teams was 100% accurate to who made Olympic teams with and without international influence. 

So this is my argument. If I look at the numbers like I have. I can not see where international shooters or juniors shooting the senior OR affects in anyway shape or form how our World Cup teams are selected. People ranked in the top 4 in our ranking system make the world team 95% of the time when we have a closed system, no juniors no international. Now that az cup is not a wre we would have less shooter their anyway so that would help. Looking at the numbers it does not matter what the system is the results are the same. So this decision will fix nothing I a don't believe anyone even looked at the numbers to see that the difference is so little that it does not matter. 

That being said I have a very simple solution that really fixes everything and should make everyone happy. All we need to do is add at top 16 OR to the shoot. It's 4 matches and will take no time at all. In all the divisions we do not have a single one with more than 32 people who have a national rank on average I think it's somewhere between 16-24. So everyone shoot the ranking round together. Juniors seniors international everyone. Then we take the top 16 Americans who want to try out for World Cup teams and put them in their own OR. Just 16 per division no possible way for any outside factors to mess with the ranking. We have the same system we do now and you gets points the exact same way
Like · Reply · 12 · October 26 at 1:08pm

.......

Brady Ellison
Brady Ellison Oops wasn't finished. My bad 
Any way we get points the exact same way as before we just shoot our own OR to do it after a ranking round or something like that. Then everybody gets to shoot the big OR just like we always do for the money experience and fun. Juniors get experience shooting with seniors. We have better compition with the international shooters and we get stronger and better. 
This way everybody wins and when it comes to earning funding for worldcup teams there is absolutely no outside influence at all. This is the only way I can see to fix all the "problems" people seem to have and we still get world experience and the best shooters shooting everything. 

It just means that USA archery had to work another two hours at a shoot to make it happen. This would be a quick shoot schedule. 
Friday practice in morning ranking for some people in afternoon. 
Saturday the rest rank in morning and in afternoon have top 16 OR for World Cup teams. 
Sunday big OR and money shoot everyone shoots and has fun. 

That's my fix and what I found out anyway looking at all the past teams and ranking. Take it for what you want. I believe that our system with everyone shooting it pics the same World Cup teams as when we close down and have private trials. So everyone is complaining without researching and realizing it all doesn't matter. Just my opinion.

...."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Having juniors shoot with seniors IMO skews the rankings (for the juniors). I've never been in favor of it. The further down you are ranked, the more it will affect you. Why even have a junior division if they are just going to shoot with the seniors. Then again, 19 year olds used to be seniors, so... ha, ha. 

Mixing in internationals with US archers at the senior level to me is no different than international golfers coming over here to play our U.S. Open or Americans going to GB to play in the British Open. Like Brady says, you just need to focus on shooting well and the rest will take care of itself.

But putting Juniors in the same bracket with seniors is IMO a real disservice to them, for an number of reasons. But not everyone will agree, not even the junior archers who want to shoot with the seniors. Of course, they always have that option whether or not they are put in the same OR bracket, so...

I'm guessing a lot of this decision stemmed from JOAD parents being so upset that foreign archers were competing directly with their kids at Nationals. I could be wrong about that, but that always creates a big stink every year.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

This isnt about world cup team. Its about USA team which is 8 spots. 


Brady is only looking at the top four, not the 8 people that make a USA team. Or the number 9th, 10, and 11th etc who might have been top 8 had they not run into an international archer. he seems to think this is about the top four who make a World Champs team or Olympic team, which is not even made by the rolling rank. 

He is skewed looking at it from only who made the top 4 for international shooting, and he is confusing the USA team made by the rolling rank and the World team or olympic team that is made by a trial. 

The USA team each year is more than just the top four archers. 


Chris


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

Small ponds make for small weak fish. 

Junior archers should be focused on improving by means of score and not rank and or winning tournaments. Hye Youn Park made the US Olympic team because of her ability to score not because she had a high ranking or a member of the US National team.

When I mentor young archers it is about getting better and not the equipment, ranking, winning tournaments or fancy T-shirts. 


-R&B 

"humility and hard work....... a great combo for success"


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

R&B said:


> Small ponds make for small weak fish.
> 
> Junior archers should be focused on improving by means of score and not rank and or winning tournaments. Hye Youn Park made the US Olympic team because of her ability to score not because she had a high ranking or a member of the US National team.
> 
> ...


This has nothing to do with fancy t-shirts or winning tournaments. And the USA is a much bigger pond than most other countries. 

By your opinion, why even have a Junior national team? a Cadet national team? Why have JOAD tournaments? 

There are teams that are selected that dont need to be on the USA team to qualify. The Olympic trials is one. If Hye Young Park wants to shoot any of the World Cup tournaments, then she has to get on the rolling rank. And her placement should not be muddied by guest archers. 

You may mentor young archers who are recreational, but there are also archers who aspire to make a national team and shoot to represent the USA. That is what this is about. Not the recreational archer. And USAT tournaments and Outdoor Nationals are the training grounds for our future national teams. 

nothing personal, but its clear you have never competed on the the rolling rank, or been knocked out by a foreign archer costing you rolling rank points. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Hye Youn Park made the US Olympic team


Did I miss something?

R&B, of course your approach is a good goal, but you cannot expect every young archer - or especially their parents - to have that mindset. Different things motivate different people, and as coaches we need to recognize and use whatever motivation is available to help our archers get better. Some young archers couldn't care less, for example, about the JOAD achievement pin program. The majority do though, and it's a great motivating tool for them.

Same with national rank, and making intermediate goals like US teams, even if they are only honorary designations. 

I'll use myself as an example. I've said before that my goal in 2004 was not to make the Olympic team, but rather to make the USAT squad for 2005. The trials just happened to be a ranking event that year for the 2005 USAT, they were relatively close to home, so I shot the event to try and earn ranking points. So, in my case, an "intermediate" goal led to much bigger things. And this is what many coaches and archers use things like rolling rank or national USAT rank for. As motivation. And I see nothing wrong with that if it helps them work harder and smarter.

Actually, the way I coach, I would not even say improving by means of score is the goal. But that's another topic entirely.


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> You may mentor young archers who are recreational, but there are also archers who aspire to make a national team and shoot to represent the USA. That is what this is about. Not the recreational archer. And USAT tournaments and Outdoor Nationals are the training grounds for our future national teams.


Where do you think top level athletes come from? Most come from recreational settings. This is especially important for children. Too much too soon is the kiss of death for those who have the potential but never reach it. Having fun is first and foremost. This sounds cliche but it is important especially young people. 



chrstphr said:


> nothing personal, but its clear you have never competed on the the rolling rank, or been knocked out by a foreign archer costing you rolling rank points.


In my best Victorian English accent........ How dare you sir!! (LOL). I've done plenty of loosing in USAT OR rounds. I don't think I've ever stopped to think about where the offending party was from (LOL). All I cared about was I needed to shoot better (LOL). On a serious note traveling the country chasing USAT points was a great experience. My goal was and is to get better. All my defeats just pointed out the fact I needed to get better. It still drives me. I still pretty much shoot everyday with the simple goal of getting better. I've been at if for 25 plus years now. The cool thing is I still have fun shooting my bow and arrow sets. I love shooting!! 


-Cheers 
-R&B


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Did I miss something?
> 
> R&B, of course your approach is a good goal, but you cannot expect every young archer - or especially their parents - to have that mindset. Different things motivate different people, and as coaches we need to recognize and use whatever motivation is available to help our archers get better. Some young archers couldn't care less, for example, about the JOAD achievement pin program. The majority do though, and it's a great motivating tool for them.
> 
> ...


Like you John I wanted to make the USAT team just so I could be an archery bum. My goal was to be able to shoot my bow all time. I think it is still my goal (smile). 

I think there are just different ways to teach, coach or and motivate. I'm more introverted and that is my coaching style. Parents are the same. I have some parents that the salt of the earth they are attentive and have no personal ego or agenda for their children other than they be happy. They are fantastic supporters and place no pressure on their children. Parents and coaches with their personal agendas are just a bad idea. I think Nick Bollettieri said something like 75% of all children between the ages 7 and 13 leave organized sports because of the negative impact of parenting and or coaching. You should check out the documentary "Unstrung". 

Score is tangible and personal. I'm not a great believer in just score it is really about being able to shoot good shots. Shooting good shots is the goal. We often put the cart before the horse that is a human characteristic. My focus is not on score but you can use score as a method the help you improve. Score is not who are or what you are capable of. I try to use score as a tool. 


-R&B


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

This topic has been somewhat derailed but I'll throw my 2 cents in. I'm pretty excited about the change. I attended three USATs + Nationals (AZ Cup, SoCal, Buckeye) and of the ORs, I beat a Canadian at SoCal and Buckeye. I lost to a Canadian at AZ Cup. In the 2nd rounds that I advanced into, I had the luck to go up against Wukie who dropped a 30 on me the first end and Collin who also nearly dropped a 30 on me the last end HAHA! Either way it earned me the 13th rank for this year and that's pretty cool. 

The change has hyper-drived my desire to train harder to move up those 5 additional spots and I can guarantee that I'm not the only one. It's going to be a big year for US archers, that's for sure.


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## R&B (Oct 4, 2006)

Arsi said:


> This topic has been somewhat derailed but I'll throw my 2 cents in. I'm pretty excited about the change. I attended three USATs + Nationals (AZ Cup, SoCal, Buckeye) and of the ORs, I beat a Canadian at SoCal and Buckeye. I lost to a Canadian at AZ Cup. In the 2nd rounds that I advanced into, I had the luck to go up against Wukie who dropped a 30 on me the first end and Collin who also nearly dropped a 30 on me the last end HAHA! Either way it earned me the 13th rank for this year and that's pretty cool.
> 
> The change has hyper-drived my desire to train harder to move up those 5 additional spots and I can guarantee that I'm not the only one. It's going to be a big year for US archers, that's for sure.


Congratulations Arsi! Keep grinding man!!

-R&B


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

R&B said:


> Where do you think top level athletes come from? Most come from recreational settings. This is especially important for children. Too much too soon is the kiss of death for those who have the potential but never reach it. Having fun is first and foremost. This sounds cliche but it is important especially young people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



then Sir, i stand corrected. 


Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

FiFi said:


> Brady wasn't very happy about the change and basically inferred that he wouldn't shoot for the US target team, He also said that the outside archers didn't really affect the final outcome any different than juniors did. When your at the top this kind of change wouldn't but those climbing the ranks it certainly does. I am sure it will sort itself out when things cool down abit


Garrett made the Olympics and Klimitchek almost did, as juniors. Also my guess without research is they were entering senior for USATs instead of junior despite having the choice. I recall there being a kerfuffle about this when they did some qualifying event as seniors and were then allowed to cross back over to juniors with those scores for world youth trials. So it's kind of like juniors "don't change the outcome" except when they do, in which case we treat them like seniors instead of juniors, until some event comes up when we/they want to be treated like kids again.

I think the eliminations should be separate and you commit to the team you want to make. If you want to shoot up the trade off is you sign up for that and forego all but trials events for juniors. If you want to shoot your age, you give up competing with seniors and compete against your own age. Just like I could play up age groups in soccer, but could also play my age, but not some weird mix of both. I don't get why we care enough to have separate age/para pools for quali and then throw everyone back in the same jumble for eliminations. One supercompetitive big event, fine, but weird as a general principle.

That being said, it's a skill and score sport, and if part of why you suffer is kids interspersed between you and a higher finish, I don't know if I am crying too hard for you. I'd rather be happy for Garrett kicking your butt when he could be with juniors.

I see the foreign archer thing as different, however, for the most part that's an Arizona thing so I don't know if that's really the same thing as the routine inclusion of juniors and para with seniors in eliminations after separate classes in quali. I think there's a better argument outside archers coming in and knocking people out affects rank in a distorting fashion, but it sounds to me like Az was going a different direction and the reality is if it becomes like every other USAT meet it's a sprinkling of foreign archers who hardly throw things off that much. Juniors is like dozens of people per event meshing into the same knockouts (but like I said, solution to that is separate it and commit the competitor to a class each year).


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Personally I think something like what Az was is good for development and competition even if it's awkward for rejiggering the rankings back into making sense because of the foreign archer contingent.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

well, the solution was to make AZ cup just a WRE tournament. And lose the USAT qualifier, then you can have all the international competition you want without affecting the USA ranking points. 

Since the AZ cup has given up the WRE part, then there will be very few international archers anyway. But i do agree with keeping guest archers out of any part that has bearing on the USA rolling rank. 

Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I agree with Chris, and kind of wonder why they didn't wait a year to see if post AZ WRE they still had much of an issue to even worry about. I wonder how many international top notch archers come to Az from out of country once it's not a WRE. If that changes to more like the rest, then what you typically see is fields that are 90%+ domestic in every class, with an occasional visit from someone like Duenas from a neighboring country, and some entries from students and immigrants not yet citizens who are generally here for at least a few years and perhaps for life and just not of status yet. The latter it would almost seem like you'd want to encourage to increase archery nationality and participation, and the former is arguably useful for competition, but in practice rare.

The one event that it looks like to me massively would throw off finishing ranks is Az. The rest, you know, if a single visiting Korean archer makes the final in Decatur I almost think that should throw off things because everyone got beat by her. It's not like there was a pile of foreign archers squeezing everyone out of the gold medal match that weekend. So it's kind of like, see if there is still any "issue" with the new dispensation before you even bother with rules that are probably going to work as much against ordinary immigrants and students living here long term as the people competing for the podium they seem to want to wipe off the ranks.

Also, it's worth considering that not every event should have to be the same. You could have a FITA. You could have a tournament where they wear whites a la Wimbledon. You could have one event like AZ effectively was, that was big and international, while the rest were more domestic and regional. As long as it's predominantly structured at the Olympic distance, it's still preparing you for that event, and we have, what, 5 different events that can be used? Why can't even one be a little different and something we have to fiddle with the ranks for?

And if you have to insist on archery nationality you could at least format it in less of a "building a wall" fashion by having a separate guest elimination or something less rough and absolute than "in" or "out." I don't get why people want the international thing for Vegas but suddenly for the USAT stuff it's so horrifying. Don't like being shuffled down the ranks by the visiting French and Koreans? Get better and take first. I kind of liked the competition, the possibility of being on the bale last year in between this year's silver and bronze Rio medalists. I get the WRE is going away and it's their format choice but I don't know about literally finishing off the whole idea of visiting foreign archers with the rules, like almost ensuring it won't come back at much of a level.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Looks like Brady decided to stick with recurve for 2017. He is registered for Marrakesh World cup indoor under recurve.

Chris


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

chrstphr said:


> Looks like Brady decided to stick with recurve for 2017. He is registered for Marrakesh World cup indoor under recurve.
> 
> Chris


And set a new world record......congrats Brady.


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