# Smaller 4 vane VS larger 3 vane



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I've found similar results as yours. I've been using four fletch combos for the last year indoors and outdoors and find that out to 50 yards I see better results with them. I too used a lower profile vane in a four fletch configuration and found less wind drift. It also seemed to spin the arrow quick out of the bow and I feel this helped correct flight sooner and also fight wind. 

Indoors I use AAE Max Stealth in a four fletch on 26 series arrows and see them score very slightly better for me on a running average. 

Past 50 yards a four fletch set up may create too much drag and wind would push them around more, but I haven't tested this out yet.


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## lamby66 (Jun 10, 2015)

Rrchery,

I appreciate the help. 

What vanes are you using for your 4 fletch outdoor setup? 

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## *SWITCH (Nov 27, 2007)

@Lamby66 - hey I can tell you that ime low profile is probably better in the wind, even with 4 fletch low profile vs 3 higher profile. 

I would try bohning ice vane 4 fletch and even 3 fletch with plenty of offset/helical against something like vanetec 3" super spine.

also flex fletch 300 ffp 300 if you think those aren't controlling the arrow enough


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

lamby66 said:


> Rrchery,
> 
> I appreciate the help.
> 
> ...


I’m using AAE Pro Max vanes on 3D arrows. 23 series. 

AAE 2.0 on skinnies.


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## lamby66 (Jun 10, 2015)

@*switch those ice vanes look interesting. Might try those on my 27s

@Rcr_III
I had pro max and vanetec Swifts. The Swifts looked too small for a 24 series arrow. Thanks for confirming what I noticed with the 4 vanes over 3 high profile vanes. 

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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Wind drift is directly related to drag. If you can get any chrono readings with a bit of distance, the slower arrow will drift more. It's difficult to do unless you set up a chrono through a hole in a target butt, (or have a shooting machine) or an arrow based stopwatch, but it will give you exact figures to make choices with.


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## lamby66 (Jun 10, 2015)

#whiz-oz

I am sure that's part of wind drift but there is also side profile surface area, leverage, and weight.

The wind at 90 degrees to arrow will effect the vanes more than the shaft. If the arrow was not moving the arrow will point to the wind. (like a weather vane)

Since it is moving forward the vanes are attempting to steer itself straight which will then cause more drag than a day with no wind..

It's all pieces of a larger puzzle. 

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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Actually, there IS no wind at 90 degrees to the arrow. This is the single biggest thing that archers and a lot of radio control modellers find it really hard to figure out. 
When the arrow is moving in free air, the fletches align the aerodynamic longitudinal axis to the direction of airflow. 
There IS no sidewind experienced by the arrow. Wind is the airflow experienced by something touching the ground. Arrows experience airflow caused by their direction of travel. 

For decades, I have had to explain this to people, over and over. 

If you tie a bit of wool to an arrow and hold the arrow in your hand, the wool will show you the direction of airflow experienced by the arrow. 
If you shoot that arrow with the wool attached, the wool will still show you the airflow experienced by the arrow. And it will point exactly aligned to the arrow shaft. It will never kink off to the side "because of wind" because there IS NO SIDEWAYS WIND that the arrow shaft ever cares about. 

Just like when you're in an aircraft, did you notice that it never swerves sideways until you have to land? That's the pilot aligning the aircraft's direction of travel with the runway. 


Relativity is a significantly difficult concept for a lot of people to grasp and I love asking people if they've ever ridden a bike. Most people have. 
I ask them if the wheels are constantly in motion while they're riding and they say that they are. 
I ask them how they know and they say because they can look down at them and as long as they're moving, the wheels are turning. 

So then I ask them if they've ever been standing while someone rides past on a bike. They always say that they have. 
But the bike wheel was touching the ground, which wasn't moving. They know that the ground wasn't moving because they were standing on it. 

So was the wheel stopped at the point it was touching the ground, or was the wheel continuously turning? Obviously, both are correct, but it depends on the observer. This is called relativity. 

Just as the person on the bike experiences the wheels continuously moving, the archer experiences wind. 

The person who watches the bike goes by, knows that the ground is not moving and that the bike wheel is stationary where it touches the ground. The arrow in the bow and in the target experiences side winds and variable airflow. The arrow in flight experiences airflow aligned to the arrow shaft. 

This should be in every single archers introduction to archery. 



lamby66 said:


> #whiz-oz
> 
> I am sure that's part of wind drift but there is also side profile surface area, leverage, and weight.
> 
> ...


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## lamby66 (Jun 10, 2015)

#wiz-oz
I understand your theory but this can't be fully correct. I will base this on long range rifle shots and will tell you FOR A FACT wind effects items in the air.

A 5.56 round has a much higher rate of wind drift that that of a 30 caliber at ranges up to 300 meters

You need to compensate for as little as 5mph if you plan on hitting the vitals of a deer at 300 meters. I am talking around 6" with a 5.56 and about 4" with a 30.06 but the bullet drop between the two is vastly different and the 5.56 will only drop about 4" From a 100meter zero and the 30.06 will drop about 18" with the same zero

Now that's a tiny side profile compared to an arrow. 

If you think your poi would be the same with a bow at 50 yards with 0 wind, or a 20mph 90 degree cross wind you are lying to yourself. 

I noticed about at 5" drift at 10mph with my series 27 arrows about 2" drift with my 22s

You used aircraft as a reference.
If there is a 100mph tailwind or a 100mph headwind would effect your airspeed by 200mph

Crosswinds are also relative to other axis of air travel.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/move3.html

I just know from experience you need to adjust arrows and rifle shots for wind. You also need to adjust for drop and climb based on wind in front or behind you (bullet or arrow airspeed changes)

I do appreciate your input but again, I think it's a small part of a bigger picture

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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

It's not actually theory. It's proven fact. 
Everything that I'm telling you isn't new and has been known for quite a while. 
Wind drift is the direction that the projectile moves, in the direction of the wind. Nobody disputes that. You'd have to be a moron to pretend it doesn't exist. 

What people don't know is "Why do some things drift more than others" You've asked why there is a difference between arrows with different fletches. 

Well, you might notice that there is not one top rated archer in any of the accuracy related archery sports who uses four fletches. 
You also might notice that ALL rifle projectiles for long range shots use boat tailed projectiles. 

It's called ballistic coefficient. Projectiles with less drag retain energy better, go further and ..... are less effected by wind. 

Bullets are also dynamically unstable, so they require being spun to continue to point in the direction of travel. This makes them resist being turned, so they actually RESIST being aligned to airflow. This is why bullets can experience aerodynamic forces which make them "glide" because they can generate lift. This is caused because they can maintain an angle of attack which is NOT aligned to the relative airflow. Bullets don't weathervane into the relative wind. Arrows absolutely do. 

In fact, they can't NOT align because they're dynamically stable. If you drop a bullet and an arrow into a pool, the arrow will try to go point down. The bullet will just tumble as it falls to the bottom. 

If you could shoot three arrows at the same time in the same crosswind at the same target you could do some experiments. 

Say we have three identical shafts. 
One with no fletches, 
one with three and 
one with four and shot them all at the same time. 
The shaft with no fletches weighs a little bit less, however it has less drag. It comes out like a rocket, takes a little more distance to align itself to the relative wind caused by the crosswind, but it gets to the target first because it loses speed the least. It will hit closest to the aimed point as it is least effected by wind drift. 
The three fletched arrow weighs a little more, but aligns itself to the relative airflow faster than the unfletched shaft. It however, has more drag, so slows down more. Because it spends more time getting to the target, it is affected by wind drift for a longer period of time. It hits further downwind than the unfletched shaft. It also hits lower. 
Now we get to the four fletched shaft. It weighs a little more than the three fletched one, but four fletches more than the unfletched shaft. It comes out a little slower than the three and slows down faster than the three fletch does. So it hits the target last. It hits way more downwind and of course lower than the three fletch. It does this because it has taken longer to get there. 

So then you could go for thinner and lower profile four fletches so that you try and match the ballistic coefficient of higher three fletches. That's when you start looking at turbulent and laminar airflow around the fletches. Not a great deal of research has been done in this area because nobody really cares, but we know that the airflow is turbulent over most of the shaft AND that it is affected by the point shape. (This research HAS been done) 

Now, before you start talking "theory" I'd like to point out a few things. 

I know how this all goes together. It's not my fault if you don't believe me. 
Aerodynamic drag's effect on projectiles is a well established science. If you go and look at what I've said, instead of what you THINK I've said, you'll find that all this stuff is well known, researched and has been used by the military and aerospace industry for decades. 
The top snipers, bench rest and match shooters use boat tailed bullets to reduce drag and wind drift. It's not a secret. 

If you're going to include links to things, make sure that you understand what the link is saying. 
The very first thing is says is "One of the most confusing concepts for young aerodynamicists is the relative velocity between objects" 
This is why I explained the bicycle wheel observation. 

I've also mentioned that I've explained this entire thing for a very long time. People DO NOT get it until they've managed to tie all the concepts together. 
So you can accept what I've said as the truth, or you can go out and learn about aerodynamics, drag, dynamic stability, instability, vector addition, projectile motion and read all the scientific testing which has been done which actually relates directly to arrow drag and drift. 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1754337111418876?journalCode=pipa

Once you've done all that, you can come back and I'll see how willing you are to tell me that it's only a small part of a bigger picture. 

But if you'd like a simpler explanation of that particular paper, you can just read page 5 and 6 of this

http://www.archery.org.au/Portals/22/2017 General/Archery Insights December 2016.pdf

But here's the main part:
Consequently, from this simple modelling, the drift of an arrow in wind is:
Proportional to the air density.
Proportional to the strength of the wind (a stronger wind means more drift).
Proportional to the effective area of the arrow (for example, more shaft surface area means more drift, that is, a smaller diameter shaft is an advantage – a smaller diameter shaft also usually has more mass, which helps as well).
Proportional to the effective drag coefficient of the arrow (for example, better arrow and arrow component shapes could help reduce the drift).
Proportional to the target distance squared (that is, it gets much worse at longer distances).
Weakly inversely proportional to the energy transferred to the arrow from the bow (so a higher draw weight will reduce the wind drift a little).
Weakly inversely proportional to the mass of the arrow (so a heavier arrow of the same outside dimensions will give a small reduction in wind drift).

We do need to think about the impact of the above assumptions:
1. A more massive arrow does extract a little more energy from the bow. This means that a heavier arrow is a little more advantageous than shown above.
2. As the arrow gets heavier its path to the target gets longer (it has to travel on a higher arc).This means that a heavier arrow is a little less advantageous than shown above.
3. The arrow does slow down as it travels towards the target. This means that an arrow with low drag has an additional small advantage over an arrow with higher drag. 
That is, a smaller diameter arrow has an additional advantage.
4. Wind is generally gusty and from varying angles. The case above should be the worst, so drift will be a little less.
5. Most of the wind velocities are indeed small compared to the arrow velocities. The drift will be a little more than calculated above for stronger winds.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Sorry to sound fetitious but think more and better practice would be more beneficial than weighting the pros and cons of vein numbers. World championship scores are 3 vein.


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## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

Just to add to the confusion... John Dudley of Nock On believes 4 Max Stealth Vanes are quieter in flight than 3 high profile vanes. Dudley's conclusion is based on the reaction of game animals (Elk?) to arrows in flight toward them. He is happy with the impact on accuracy of either set up. There are some interesting tests one can find on YouTube. IMO the best is from Ranch Fairy, but be sure to see/listen to all you can find. But they are all subjective. I am not sure how one could tie measured values to such tests. So many variables.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

If you read through John Dudley's website over the years, there is a mix of good stuff and scientifically unsupportable. This is really unfortunate as archers hero worship anyone who can put an arrow in the middle of a target before any other quality. This is as logical as judging your brain surgeon on his dart game.


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## lamby66 (Jun 10, 2015)

I am awaiting a copy of model rocket modeling software that I can test the effect of stability in different conditions. A friend of mine that is big into rockets recommended tubes instead of vanes for slow speed projectiles.. Aka arrows.. I need to look into that more as well, but I don't think my archery game is as good as my arrows are now  

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## roosclan (Oct 1, 2010)

lamby66 said:


> I am awaiting a copy of model rocket modeling software that I can test the effect of stability in different conditions. A friend of mine that is big into rockets recommended *tubes instead of vanes* for slow speed projectiles.. Aka arrows.. I need to look into that more as well, but I don't think my archery game is as good as my arrows are now
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Sounds like... FOBs. A FOB is, after all, a short tube. Maybe that aerospace engineer was onto something after all...


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## lamby66 (Jun 10, 2015)

The model rocket guy suggested tubes glues to the body, more like straws. But I think a fob might work better in wind as well, if you have the clearance. 

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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

whiz-Oz said:


> It's not actually theory. It's proven fact.
> Everything that I'm telling you isn't new and has been known for quite a while.
> Wind drift is the direction that the projectile moves, in the direction of the wind. Nobody disputes that. You'd have to be a moron to pretend it doesn't exist.
> 
> ...


This is a reason I like a spin wing/kurly style vane.

I can get all the steering I need with a very lightweight package.

Being that they can be had in various stiffnesses, you can theoretically tune them to your arrow speed.
And by that I mean, at launch, the arrow is moving forward at its fastest speed, and rotating at its slowest.
This will cause the vane to open up, creating more drag/steering. 
This gets the arrow spinning very quickly (easier to accelerate something light than something heavy), very early in flight.
As the rotation of the arrow increases, the vane then contracts, or curls back down toward the resting shape, reducing drag.
The arrow goes faster, (less time for drift) and the drag is variable, more when needed, less when not needed.
The biggest issue is finding the stiffness and offset that works with your arrows in the wind.
Contrary to what might seem logical, you normally would need to go smaller than what the recurve guys use.
Drag increases faster than velocity (speed squared) so what works for the recurve guys (slow arrows open the vanes less, so larger vanes are needed to get the arrow to stabilize quickly) doesn’t work as well for compound guys. 
So you need to play with different stiffnesses and different offsets to make it all work.
It’s more work than most feel like putting into it, so most top compound guys just stick with 3 vanes.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

duc said:


> Sorry to sound fetitious but think more and better practice would be more beneficial than weighting the pros and cons of vein numbers. World championship scores are 3 vein.


What if you practice AND think about it?


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## Kylakebuck (Aug 20, 2019)

I’ve seen no “real” difference other than sound in flight?


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## Tipe (May 19, 2018)

lamby66 said:


> I want to refletch the aae max stealth arrows, but I am not sure which way is best. They are light arrows at 364gr 100gr tips and an foc of 6.2 (with the 4 pro max vanes)
> 
> I would like these to be my new defacto outdoor 3d arrow known to 50 yards.


Can't help to say, out of actual topic, but if You're shooting known yardage then rise your FOC and forget speed/light weight.
I think it would help lot more than thinking about vane configuration.

Forgiveness is one thing in real life situation subject that really will change game when shooting competition. 
Light arrow with that much rear weight isn't best in that.

I don't use 23's in 3D 'cause my 3DHV's are much better shooters than any 23 what I've have been trying. Really like that arrow.
That diameter doesn't rescue your scores by cutting line if it's few inches away from point where it should be.

Well I have light weight arrow to get speed out 'cause unknown yardage shooting under WA rules to cover my yardage mistake. 
But I still get good FOC between 12-15 easily with my setup.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Mahly said:


> Being that they can be had in various stiffnesses, you can theoretically tune them to your arrow speed.


The theory isn't borne out by any of the research done. And we're talking electromagnetically suspended arrows in wind tunnels with curly vanes. 
The last thing you want is variable drag anyway. 

Arrows are supposed to be as absolutely consistent in all properties as possible. If you have variable drag, then you need to have consistent variable drag across ALL your arrows. That's going to be almost impossible to achieve. Regular vanes with a higher deformation resistance will be naturally better in terms of consistency. 

The only place that curly vanes are superior is in being lighter and cross sectional area. This is important with recurves as they're more critically affected by release variation, the more weight they have on the back. Light vanes rule. 
Considering that compounds have a significantly greater performance margin compared to recurves because of their reduced variation opportunity, there is no point in using potentially more variable fletches on them. 

As of yet, no actual tested data has proven that spin wing/ curly vane styles can match the ultimate accuracy achieved by plastic vanes. 

When someone can constantly get six separate arrows to go into the same hole at 25 metres with mylar structured vanes, then I'll have to admit that someone made it happen. Until then, they've not reached the same standard.


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## knarrly (Dec 21, 2004)

Totally undocumented results but I switched from 3 blazers to four 1.75 x-vanes for solely (only had less than a credit card width between cables and vanes) clearance issues, and before totally switching i shot 3 or each for a couple weeks and found no difference is point of impact or drift out to 70. No severely windy days but northern nevada almost always has some wind.

On the plus side for the four fletch it is super easy when I replace just one shot up vanes to see if I did it well since they are 90 degree and straight across from each other.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Did all my Field shooting with a CXL 250 (not quite fat, but still thick) and three 3.87" AAE vanes. Though not the best diameter or combination for Field I did pretty good - 540s most of time. My first bow turned right at 267 fps and my second bow turned 280 fps - same arrow in both. 

Now, wind, just how stable is it? It ain't. Zero at the shot and halfway to the target the wind gusts to 10 mph or wind gusting to 10 mph at the shot and dropping to nothing with the arrow halfway to the target. When shooting Outdoor target there were flags on top the target stands and we watched them.

It was after I quit shooting outdoor spots that I tried 2" Blazers on the same CXL 250s. Accuracy was outstanding for all distances, especially long distances, maybe better than with the AAE vanes. Okay, arrow slapping at all distances.

I don't believe spin rate is a real factor, 2 degrees offset is more than enough. I used 2 degrees for the AAEs and full helical with the Blazers. 2 degrees of offset gives more than full helical does on short vanes.


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## reddogjack (Dec 7, 2016)

one thing that i feel will help in the wind is to get your FOC up. 
i use 4 vane on all indoor & outdoor arrows for several years now.
an have noticed a difference shooting in cross wind.

i tried 10 diff. vanes. really like the - blazer X2 1.865" x .465 x 4.8 gn.
also had good luck with - AAE Pro Max 1.70" x .460 x 4.9 gn.
the one i like the best is the - Vanetec V-Maxx 2.50" x .430 x 5.5 gn.

did my testing at 40/50yds. w/cross wind. over time. always kept a building
on the side to keep wind off me, to help with form. larger vane always hit 
to the side of smaller vane. does it work ... i feel it does.


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## Tipe (May 19, 2018)

SonnyThomas said:


> Did all my Field shooting with a CXL 250 (not quite fat, but still thick) and three 3.87" AAE vanes. Though not the best diameter or combination for Field I did pretty good - 540s most of time. My first bow turned right at 267 fps and my second bow turned 280 fps - same arrow in both.
> 
> Now, wind, just how stable is it? It ain't. Zero at the shot and halfway to the target the wind gusts to 10 mph or wind gusting to 10 mph at the shot and dropping to nothing with the arrow halfway to the target. When shooting Outdoor target there were flags on top the target stands and we watched them.
> 
> ...


I do use CXL250's in 3D, when shooting IFAA competitions. 
Can't get my 3DHV's under 300fps right now 'cause I don't have over 110gr points to them so needed to take another arrow this time.
Did order 120-150gr glue in's long a go but they never came.

So there was standard round nationals and I tought I try CXL's what I have here.
Bareshaft nocktuned them, did everything to get them nicely just under 300fps and light as possible.
I put Spidervanes into them and they're grouping extremely well. And light vanes -> better FOC.

Hardly ever wind is problem in 3D what is mostly shot in forrest.

And then when it matters, then it's gusty wind and rain enough that U almost need to swim over the ditches... but I managed to get silver there. 

Shame that they quit making them.. excellent arrow after all.. lightweight 'fat' arrow.


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## reddogjack (Dec 7, 2016)

Tipe said:


> I do use CXL250's in 3D, when shooting IFAA competitions.
> Can't get my 3DHV's under 300fps right now 'cause I don't have over 110gr points to them so needed to take another arrow this time.
> Did order 120-150gr glue in's long a go but they never came.
> 
> ...


what nocks are you using ? who make them ?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

To add even more confusion to this topic, I’ve tested longer, taller, AAE max vanes against standard 1.75” plastifletch vanes and they grouped together at 80 yards. Logically thinking, the extra weight and drag should make the max vanes group lower. 

My take away from that was to not overthink it. I agree with those that say slower moves more, rather than side profile drag.


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## tere colera (Mar 16, 2014)

I tried both vanes and the results to me are the same, shooting with 57lbs in a Mathews trx


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## Tipe (May 19, 2018)

reddogjack said:


> what nocks are you using ? who make them ?


They're beiter hunter #2 pin nocks.
I use them for all arrows, 3DHV, VAP, X23's and CXL's.


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## 1Warthog (Oct 15, 2008)

I see several people now using 5 and 6 small vanes at 3D's


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