# what is the intrinsic advantage of the X10's ?



## 10X Archer (Mar 7, 2016)

I shoot X10's and I now know why they are the most common at the high level. Besides what you already mentioned the big one is a weaker nock end due to the barreling. This makes for a more forgiving arrow for a finger release.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Because obviously the more money you spend the higher scores you shoot :darkbeer:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

anorphirith said:


> hey guys I'm trying to find the real advantage of arrows like the X10,
> from my understanding you get a matched set of 12, the spines are very close to each other and the straightness is guaranteed to a certain degree. also it's very thin and heavier than the usual for thanks to the aluminum core and it's barreled.
> so here's what I'm comparing it to: the cheapest arrow in the easton line, the inspire, they're almost as thin, they're actually a tad heavier for similar spinage. and the spinage and weight consistency can be easily matched by buying a bunch of them and testing them and sorting them. So the only advantage I see here is the barreling that the inspire is missing. and the fact that they are more durable than the inspire (although since the inspire are so cheap the durability doesn't really matter).
> I'm looking for insightful feedback on what I'm missing.
> ...


https://eastonarchery.com/arrow-shaft-design-and-performance/

Explanation about why a barreled shaft works.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

anorphirith said:


> hey guys I'm trying to find the real advantage of arrows like the X10,
> from my understanding you get a matched set of 12, the spines are very close to each other and the straightness is guaranteed to a certain degree. also it's very thin and heavier than the usual for thanks to the aluminum core and it's barreled.
> so here's what I'm comparing it to: the cheapest arrow in the easton line, the inspire, they're almost as thin, they're actually a tad heavier for similar spinage. and the spinage and weight consistency can be easily matched by buying a bunch of them and testing them and sorting them. So the only advantage I see here is the barreling that the inspire is missing. and the fact that they are more durable than the inspire (although since the inspire are so cheap the durability doesn't really matter).
> I'm looking for insightful feedback on what I'm missing.
> ...


PS. A beginning shooter will not see any improvement in score, when using the Easton Inspire or using Easton X10 shafts with tungsten points. X10s are a long distance arrow, and in the hands of expert level shooters, $650 a dozen arrows do make a difference. The tungsten points are $235 for a dozen points. Stainless steel points are only $36. Who on earth would pay 8X for a dozen points? It's just an arrow, right? Well, tungsten is extremely dense. 120 grains of point weight, from Tungsten is shorter than 120 grains of point weight, from stainless steel. So, the same weight 120 grain point, because of higher density, expert level shooters are spending an extra $200 to get a few more points for score, cuz the Tungsten point, boosts the FOC just a little bit more.


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

Smaller diameter arrow will have less drag due to smaller frontal area and will drift less in the wind


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

I have done the buying several dozen less expensive arrows to get a straight, matched set and decided it was not that much more expensive to just buy the higher end arrows. IMO the manufacturer is doing all that work for you for the price. As far as X10s I just like the feel better as they come out of the bow (probably the extra weight).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

IMO, I'd never buy a set of x10's for an archer who isn't already breaking 300 at 70M or shooting 290's on an indoor 18M round (30 arrows). But that's just me. Fortunately for Easton, plenty of people don't adhere to those same guidelines.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> IMO, I'd never buy a set of x10's for an archer who isn't already breaking 300 at 70M or shooting 290's on an indoor 18M round (30 arrows). But that's just me. Fortunately for Easton, plenty of people don't adhere to those same guidelines.


I agree but when I win the lotto I'll buy all of you a dozen!


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## anorphirith (Apr 17, 2017)

I can't believe in 20y no one else but easton managed to make quality barreled arrows ! if they were 1000$ people would still have no choice


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## Jalthi (Aug 14, 2016)

anorphirith said:


> if they were 1000$ people would still have no choice


Hey now, let's not start giving anyone any ideas!


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## anorphirith (Apr 17, 2017)

Jalthi said:


> anorphirith said:
> 
> 
> > if they were 1000$ people would still have no choice
> ...


haha yeah hopefully to potential competition


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

anorphirith said:


> I can't believe in 20y no one else but easton managed to make quality barreled arrows ! if they were 1000$ people would still have no choice


Carbon Express is the only other competitor. I think the Nano Pro Xtremes are probably equivalent to an X10. Difference being that the NPX do not have an alloy core and are thus lighter. They also are parallel shafts instead of tapered or barreled. CX compensates for this by using different stiffness carbon on the ends and middle of the shaft to simulate the same effect an X10 has. However I think the only reason pros dont use CX arrows is because Easton already had their hand in the sponsorship cookie jar long before CX could.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> IMO, I'd never buy a set of x10's for an archer who isn't already breaking 300 at 70M or shooting 290's on an indoor 18M round (30 arrows). But that's just me. Fortunately for Easton, plenty of people don't adhere to those same guidelines.


Yep. It kills me to see a JOAD kid with the latest and greatist equipement and they can't break 250 indoors.

Well, I kmow some adults that are in the same boat......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

anorphirith said:


> I can't believe in 20y no one else but easton managed to make quality barreled arrows ! if they were 1000$ people would still have no choice


The final shot of the 2012 London Olympic games for team gold, was a 10, shot with a CX Nano Pro by Michele Frangilli. Lest we forget. 

Others could make them, but breaking into the archery market which is effectively cornered by one manufacturer, is all but impossible - for a number of reasons.


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## DonTYoung (Oct 13, 2014)

fango0000 said:


> Because obviously the more money you spend the higher scores you shoot :darkbeer:


That is what I tell my wife every time I have to buy new equipment


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

3 big jumps in arrow technology have beeen recorded up to now:
- Aluminium replacing Wood from 1939 (Easton)
- Full poltruded Carbon replacing aluminium from 198x (Beman Diva)
- Alu Carbon replacing full carbon from 198x (Easton AC not barrelled becoming ACE barrelled)

X10, also barrelled, have been made available to world top level archers outside USA starting from beginning of 1996 and during pre olympic tournament in Atlanta (my son got first set at that time).
X10 got tungsten points around 1999, before Sidney, so solving only major issue they had, that was FOCwith steel points not very good for long draw lenghts.

Since then, all other arrows coming to market have been evolutions, not revolutions.

If you consider the total investment needed to produce arrow parts, for sure arrows points and wraps are at zero level, nocks in the thousands dollars range, full wound carbon shafts are in the tens of thousand dollars range, aluminium arrows are in the 100's of thousands dollars range, aluminium/ carbon barrelled are much over than that as made starting from aluminium shafts. 

Then, as the more important part of the business game is the learning curve (marketing well known concept) were those making a certain product since tens of years are already at minimum manufacturing cost and top quality. It is evident that combining basic investments needed, TAM (total available market), and learning curve position of existing makers, there is no possibility that another company can arrive to produce A/C barreleld shafts competitive to Easton products. Cartel and Skyart tried already, and failed. 

So, manufacturers other than Easton are now trying to improve carbon arrows (limited starting investment for tooling) making them slimmer using hi-module carbon fibers and introducing variable spine in their lenght to simulate tapered AC arrows (since 2010). 
These evolutions are still in progress everywere arrows shafts are made, and some Chinese factories already make some very good slim carbon arrows that give 70 mt grouping comparable to medium level A/C shafts in finger shooting. 
But Easton A/C barrellled tecnology will remain at the perfomance edge. They can still improve the performancies of X10 making them lighter than now by increasing the module of the carbon they use (X10 350 and 325 are already using this different carbon , in my knowledge and from their spec sheets) but they don't see any need for doing it, yet, in absence of real competition to present X10 version.


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## wilkinsonk (Nov 23, 2014)

rjbishop said:


> However I think the only reason pros dont use CX arrows is because Easton already had their hand in the sponsorship cookie jar long before CX could.


It's been stated on the Easton Podcast a number of times that the Korean national team buys *all* of their own X10s. Who are dominant in recurve archery and have a very deep talent pool? Those same people _buying_ all of their own arrows.

Just sayin'


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

wilkinsonk said:


> It's been stated on the Easton Podcast a number of times that the Korean national team buys *all* of their own X10s. Who are dominant in recurve archery and have a very deep talent pool? Those same people _buying_ all of their own arrows.
> 
> Just sayin'


That gets a bit lost in translation usually. What it means that Korean federation (and Chaebol teams afaik) bulk buys equipment, and their teams' archers pick/are given from that pool. That has started to be a bit different lately with sponsorships for individuals, though.

Thats why Samick got into the trouble with school teams in the first place, allegedly.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

zal said:


> That gets a bit lost in translation usually. What it means that Korean federation (and Chaebol teams afaik) bulk buys equipment, and their teams' archers pick/are given from that pool. That has started to be a bit different lately with sponsorships for individuals, though.
> 
> Thats why Samick got into the trouble with school teams in the first place, allegedly.


That comment is terribly unjust. Samick was the only Korean archery company that WAS NOT involved in that scandal.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Someone is gonna have to fill me in on this "scandal".


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

>--gt--> said:


> That comment is terribly unjust. Samick was the only Korean archery company that WAS NOT involved in that scandal.


I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but that was what Korean papers were reporting at the time, according to my friend who was a visiting lecturer in Seoul back then. I never had enough interest in it to follow its conclusion.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

rjbishop said:


> Someone is gonna have to fill me in on this "scandal".


Short version was that some South Korean schools were receiving kickbacks to utilize certain brands.

At the same time and very unrelated to the bribery was the fallout within Samick that spawned (I think?) MK Korea and some other things.

All this occurred in/around 2011. There was an article in some AT thread that linked to the scandal in a South Korean paper, but due to the AT buyout and subsequent oddball upgrades that hosed the search engine, it can't be found anymore using easy methods.

-Steve


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Vittorio said:


> 3 big jumps in arrow technology have beeen recorded up to now:
> - Aluminium replacing Wood from 1939 (Easton)
> - Full poltruded Carbon replacing aluminium from 198x (Beman Diva)
> - Alu Carbon replacing full carbon from 198x (Easton AC not barrelled becoming ACE barrelled)
> ...


Sir thanks for the insight. Very informative as usual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Since then, all other arrows coming to market have been evolutions, not revolutions.


I think the tri-spine full carbon arrow may not be a "revolution" but it certainly and advancement in all-carbon arrows for finger shooters.


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## keno190a (Nov 23, 2015)

fango0000 said:


> Because obviously the more money you spend the higher scores you shoot :darkbeer:


I thought that was one of the goals of this sport? Spend as much money as possible! haha


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

keno190a said:


> I thought that was one of the goals of this sport? Spend as much money as possible! haha


By the way some people spend, you would think it is.


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## DarkLightStar (Apr 7, 2016)

I don't think there's anything wrong with attempting to emulate the people you admire. If you have the funds and wish to spend them pursuing something that makes you happy and derive pleasure from the pursuit, what is the issue?

A heavier arrow will retain a higher percentage of its speed downrange. Short distance, this might not matter so much...but at 70 meters with 50 or so pounds behind it, a heavier arrow has an advantage.

Look at the scores and the equipment that is being used to attain those scores...then calculate how much time you're willing to invest to emulate those who do what you admire.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

IMO, spending more than you need is just foolish. But then I've been called all sorts of names here for that "unconventional" way of thinking. Mostly because if everyone did it, some folks in the industry wouldn't be able to afford their shiny toys. 

If a person is a good shooter and they just want to use X10's, then fine. But we're forgetting the fact that in many cases, even X10's are not even the best option for an archer. A lot of archers (probably the majority) would be better served by shooting a lighter arrow.


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## PKayser (Jan 10, 2008)

When my daughter shoots well enough fo X10's to improve her scores, hopefully she's getting them free or greatly reduced from a sponsor. Probably not while I'm the "sponsor" though.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

PKayser said:


> When my daughter shoots well enough fo X10's to improve her scores, hopefully she's getting them free or greatly reduced from a sponsor. Probably not while I'm the "sponsor" though.


:darkbeer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

At some level almost everything matters. 
I just haven't meet too many people who are at that level, but know way too many who think they are. 

John - 

We disagree on a lot of stuff, but glad we're still on the same page on this one.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John -
> 
> We disagree on a lot of stuff, but glad we're still on the same page on this one.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Not sure why you'd say that. We're usually on the same page about most things, esp. when it comes to unnecessary spending on archery toys.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

LOL, we've had our moments ... 

Tony


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Inspire is significantly heavier on weight (headed towards Aluminum weight) which when you are a noob shooting low poundage costs you distance (perhaps even the ability to reach a distance point on before running out of slide space and having to get creative or aim off). Weight also slows it down and increases time in the air for the wind to blow the arrow around.

Not sure what Inspire straightness is but from good to bad arrows with different straightness requirements you can see a difference in how it spins on your hand, much less in the air. The more wobbly the arrow is the harder to expect it to fly the same as the last one you shot.

Intermediate level arrows you can start to get arrows that are straighter and fly better, lightweight arrows can even be gotten cheap like Superclubs. So you can get a better arrow just being picky without buying X10s.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I find it fascinating how a thread that started by asking for the advantage of a piece of equipment inevitably ends up being a lecture on how you don't need it because you're not good enough by guys who think they are good enough, because they don't know the answer.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

theminoritydude said:


> I find it fascinating how a thread that started by asking for the advantage of a piece of equipment inevitably ends up being a lecture on how you don't need it because you're not good enough by guys who think they are good enough, because they don't know the answer.


Welcome to the internet :wink:


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I find it interesting how judgmental people can be about how other people spend their money. "What? You bought a 100' yacht and then had to hire someone to pilot it? Ha ha! What fool!"


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I think it's preferable to a coach/pro shop culture of upselling noobs like rubes. Or to being a country club sport like sailing where in some corners one isn't taken seriously if they don't have a new boat and didn't spend the money. Or to a culture where those with knowledge hoard it, and you don't even know what to get.

You can hear all this and still go out and get a Fiberbow or high end Hoyt limbs or X10s.


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## DarkLightStar (Apr 7, 2016)

Time in the air is pretty insignificant compared to momentum. If things are blowing around that much, chances are the archer's form and confidence is more of a concern. A heavy arrow is an advantage for a long-range known distance. Happy to see people disagree with this. Works for me.

Since we're talking theoretically, let's not discount something very important: Delusion.

Most great people have had a smattering of it. It allows them to dream and think big thoughts and drives them on.

When I see a coach who tries to smother big silly dreams, I know that person is not for me. It's one thing to be realistic and have a meticulous plan...quite another to be discreetly condescending.

Anyway, I think it's nice to have nice things and attempt to be worthy of them. 

Good luck in whatever path you choose.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Well, I think X10s are very good in the wind, but so are skinny carbon express arrows. 

In dead air a few years ago I shot Nano XRs, MKIIs, X10s and ACEs, shot at 70m, indoors, for several weeks. Scores averaged within 1 point. My new x10s a point higher than the other well used arrows. So in dead air I give advantage to x10s by 1 point. In live tournaments outdoors with wind and rain etc I flipped back and forth between X10s and Nanos. X10s a bit heavier than Nanos but each tracked so well, shot PBs with both. ACEs and MKIIs suffered in the wind but with lower poundage they rock. 

The intrinsic value in x10s is lack of horizontal drift in outdoor conditions, especially above 40lbs.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Shooting 70m, time in the air is not significant at low enough a draw weight, sorry, I disagree totally. I've watched my arrows blow wide of where they were headed at 50 much less 70. I have to worry about wind strength and timing on top of making sure I have a fairly light arrow to make the distance and lower the flight time. I agree that if one can help it they might want to go for FOC, etc., but that kind of begs the question whether your game at your poundage can afford it. If I put heavier tips on my arrows I might not make 70 without sight tricks. I'd rather be aiming at the bale with the sight in a normal position on the slide. If you're marginal for the distance it does matter.

Now, how many people marginal for 70 at all would bother to shoot it. Different question. See "dreaming." I did do Bangkok last year but I don't have to worry about making the bale or the wind indoors. I did have to deal with the drone flying overhead in practice as well as a scorer's table to the right of me but that's something else.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

is significant I meant


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Its really simple, its called bending stresses and moments of inertia. Its quite easy for the casual observer to show how for a given axial load on a shaft that a barreled shaft will bend less for the same mass then an tapered or straight shaft. Thus for a given spine that we are used to thinking about these arrows, one can achieve a smaller diameter and cross sectional area and thus a lighter arrow under the same applied axial load.

This is just plain simple physics. Something of which Easton spends a lot of effort trying to marketing mumbo jumbo to make it sound like it does more than it really does.

Ask any 1st year engineering student to show you how that is all what it is doing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> I find it fascinating how a thread that started by asking for the advantage of a piece of equipment inevitably ends up being a lecture on how you don't need it because you're not good enough by guys who think they are good enough, because they don't know the answer.


LOL So you would recommend that a 270 level archer at 70M rush out and buy X10's? 

And there is a certain someone here who is legendary for telling people they are not good enough to appreciate high-end equipment. You may know them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Seattlepop said:


> I find it interesting how judgmental people can be about how other people spend their money. "What? You bought a 100' yacht and then had to hire someone to pilot it? Ha ha! What fool!"


I find it interesting that you interpret common sense advice as being "judgemental." Not everyone believes that throwing money at the problem is always the answer. Shocking concept, I know.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> In live tournaments outdoors with wind and rain etc I flipped back and forth between X10s and Nanos. X10s a bit heavier than Nanos but each tracked so well, shot PBs with both. ACEs and MKIIs suffered in the wind but with lower poundage they rock.
> 
> The intrinsic value in x10s is lack of horizontal drift in outdoor conditions, especially above 40lbs.


I would agree with this.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> LOL So you would recommend that a 270 level archer at 70M rush out and buy X10's?


You can see my posts?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I would like to take this opportunity to discuss the concept of mutual exclusivity in limited population size, where denouncement of A, automatically infers acceptance of B, in the absence of C.

OP, any objections?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> You can see my posts?


I'll ask again. So you would recommend to a 270-level archer they purchase X-10's?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I once recommended X-10's to a girl who weighs 35kg, has a draw length of about 24" AMO, 26lbs. She had trouble landing all her arrows on the target board at 30m with her old setup.

She went on to eliminate an opponent in a match, the first time in her life. It was also the first time someone's ever asked me to take a picture together after her match. She was 19. She's now pursuing other interests.

So yes, my answer would be yes.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I once recommended X-10's to a girl who weighs 35kg, has a draw length of about 24" AMO, 26lbs. She had trouble landing all her arrows on the target board at 30m with her old setup.

She went on to eliminate an opponent in a match, the first time in her life. It was also the first time someone's ever asked me to take a picture together after her match. She was 19. She's now pursuing other interests.

So yes, my answer would be yes.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay. We have a difference of opinion on when to recommend a high-end arrow. That is all. 

I've watched several young archers shoot 330+ at 30M with CX Medallion XR's and go on to win Outdoor Nationals. I make it clear to my students and their parents when more expensive equipment is needed to match the archer's ability. And as a service to them, when it's not. Because I'm not going to be "that guy" who recommends a $350 set of arrows to an archer who is routinely going to get beat by an archer shooting $80 arrows.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Our opinions regarding suitability of arrows for certain archers are irrelevant here. OP specifically wanted to understand the attributes of this one particular shaft. This is his or her quest, not anyone else's. I could either help, or ignore. But I would not change the nature of the quest.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

People come here looking for advice. Advice often sounds like someone's opinion.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

theminoritydude said:


> Our opinions regarding suitability of arrows for certain archers are irrelevant here. OP specifically wanted to understand the attributes of this one particular shaft. This is his or her quest, not anyone else's. I could either help, or ignore. But I would not change the nature of the quest.


It's not accurate that an original post that from the very beginning compared X10s to other things and questioned what advantages a X10 actually had over bargain basement Inspires ("the only advantage I see here is the barreling") be spun as "wanted to understand the attributes of this one particular shaft." It's actually a fairly obvious and expectable thread trajectory for it to progress from (a) how is X10 better than Inspire to (b) X10 is better to (c) but you don't need to buy X10s to do better than Inspire. I mean, if we set aside the politics on here the spectrum between bottom-barrel Inspire and top-shelf X10 is massive and almost covers everything out there. You'd almost be remiss to NOT say, ummm, you're setting up an awkward, false choice of extremes, surely we can do something suitable and 100% exploitable in between $3/arrow (my Superclubs cost more than that) and $400/dozen X10s. And the idea that someone who was proposing a $3 arrow as one of the two choices, is being condescended to by being offered something better (and likely more expensive) but not $400 expensive? Meh.


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

On the lighter spines (830-1000), Easton say there is no limit to the amount that can be trimmed. Does that mean that they are not barreled like the heavier spines?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm not the one with the spin. I think that is fairly obvious.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> I'm not the one with the spin. I think that is fairly obvious.


Always gotta get personal.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Black46 said:


> On the lighter spines (830-1000), Easton say there is no limit to the amount that can be trimmed. Does that mean that they are not barreled like the heavier spines?


The barreling on the weaker spines is so subtle that essentially you're paying for the "selection" of a matched dozen vs. the true technology advantage over a parallel shaft. I've said before that I'm not sure why anyone would spend the extra $ on a set of premium shafts from about 800-900 spine down.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Okay. We have a difference of opinion on when to recommend a high-end arrow. That is all.
> 
> I've watched several young archers shoot 330+ at 30M with CX Medallion XR's and go on to win Outdoor Nationals. I make it clear to my students and their parents when more expensive equipment is needed to match the archer's ability. And as a service to them, when it's not. Because I'm not going to be "that guy" who recommends a $350 set of arrows to an archer who is routinely going to get beat by an archer shooting $80 arrows.



Most of my JOAD kids shoot the Medallion XRs, including the kids who won nationals / podiumed. None of my competing kids shoot the X10 aside from Theo. Its an arrow that is not needed nor do they want to incur the expense. 

The meddallion XR is a great arrow.


Chris


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## anorphirith (Apr 17, 2017)

thanks for the on-subject replies guys very good infos in there, 
I'm just going to close the thread since 75% of the other replies are not on subject and fruitless.


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