# 28 target field shoot for 60 and older seniors



## huteson2us2

I'll be shooting at Darrington next year. Last time the Nationals were held there, they tried to kill the seniors by having us shoot the hardest courses first three days. One of my friends rolled down a hill injuring his wrist and two of us helped a gentleman down the mountain as his O2 ran out.

I was dead tired by the time I reached my first target. So I understand what Pete53 is talking about and I am only 68. We used to shoot 28 field and 28 animals the first day and 28 hunter the second for Sectioinals and under. I am very glad that no one does that anymore. 

Field shoots are dying and I believe that the number of arrows shot might be the reason. 116 per 28 field course plus 4 for the practice target compared to 20 for a 3D round. I still love field shoots but like Pete53 says, it is getting a lot harder as we age. I have alot of respect for anyone 70 and older and hope that I am still able to climb those mountains in Darrington 10 years from now.


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## huteson2us2

Sorry, I meant to say 112 for the 28 targets plus 4 for the practice target equals 116 arrows per day plus the hour practice prior to the start of the tournament equals a very tired senior.


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## wa-prez

I've been thinking a little about that myself (as I'm 60+ and have been shooting since the days when we did shoot a 28 Field in the morning followed by (after lunch break) either another 28 Field or 28 Hunter or 14 and 14.

I don't think it is SO MUCH the number of arrows, but the amount of time it takes to get around a range under tournament conditions. It can be an all-day affair, and not much chance for meal and refreshment breaks, let alone rest-room stops we need.

With the 3-day / 5-day National Outdoor format, it might help some of the guys if they could shoot 14 F, 14 H, 14 F, 14 H, 28 A. They could combine the 14 + 14 for their 28-target F and H scores!

On the other hand, looking at the 2015 National Outdoor score report just roughly (based on the number of pages it takes to print), there were almost twice as many shooters age 50+ as there were in ages 18-49!


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## Pete53

when I was 50 till about maybe 57 years of age 28 targets and the heat wasn`t to bad but now at 62 years of age its getting to be just to much and guys older I do feel for them ,some of us have talked about this a lot and I have decided no more 28 field course all day thing for me anymore. 14 targets a day would be great but any more its just to much, I had kinda had a hard ruff job for 35years and my body is beat-up from some work injuries, I was a power lineman or a electric line pole climber,but I have been involved in archery since I was a little kid.


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## Old Sarge

I joined a new club in my area so I could shoot field again after many years of 3D. My wife and I went out to practice a few days after joining. After warming on on the practice bales we hit the course anxious to shoot a round. We could barely make 14 and had to call it quits. I'm 66 and my wife is 60. Both of us have had some health issues but are in fair condition. Walking up and down these steep hills and shooting 4 arrows per target was just to much for us.
Never went back and shot any tournaments nor did I re-join the NFAA. If they don't care enough to make it easier for seniors I won't be back. Every other sport makes allowances for getting older. Golf had senior tees, softball they move the fences in and bases closer, as examples.
My recommendation is for no more than 14 targets and two arrows per target. That will still require enough physical strength for most seniors to have a challenge without killing themselves just trying to survive. After all this is supposed to be fun, not a death March !


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## Arcus

I think it might come down to an individual's main reason for shooting field. Field archery is my favorite event. I enjoy it for the variety of targets, the setting of the course, the challenge of the targets, and the opportunity to shoot lots and lots of arrows (the opposite of 3D). I try to do my best, but last on my list of reasons is to get a trophy, medal, or patch. Nothing keeps me from walking off the course if I get tired or am physically unable to complete the course. Nothing prohibits me from stopping after 14 targets or 20 targets, and I can choose to shoot just two arrows per target instead of four. I like to score well as much as anyone, but I'd rather not turn in a scorecard than to force myself to endure an unpleasant full round of field.


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## kballer1

I am 70 & lately I enjoy shooting the 900 rounds better than the field, it is in the open in stead of in the woods where the humidify is bad & my glasses fog up & have to shoot with out them & that SUCKS, on the 900 you have water & food handy & a chair that you don't have to carry from target to target, & it is a lot more sociability where in the field it is just th 4 of you. The other round I enjoy is the lake of the woods shoot 20 to 65 yards 3 arrows/ target 2 rounds. I also know that the heat kicks my arise really bad & espicallity if I can't use my glasses.
Hate to say it but yes age does take its toll & the heat makes it twice as bad if not worse.


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## Pete53

it sounds like we are all in the same sink`n boat ??? my suggestion because my score kinda matters sure many of us still like to compete a little is this : when they set up a 2 or more day shoot why not have us shoot 14 targets 1 thru 14 the first day and the second day 15 thru 28 the second half which is the other 14 making 28 targets in 2 days ? same amount us seniors pay as the rest of the archers just less targets each day. or I quess many of us just will have to quit?


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## Arcus

kballer1 said:


> The other round I enjoy is the lake of the woods shoot 20 to 65 yards 3 arrows/ target 2 rounds.


Now that sounds like fun. I get the impression, though, that Lake of the Woods shoots are very few and very far between.


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## kballer1

They have been but no real reason why there can't be more of them as we have had them at out field range & we also have one in early may in WI. Rapids,WI called the Badger Pro-Am.
that one is in a park & set up in a v formation from 20 to 65 yd. then we have a break about 1 hr & then shot the other side 20 to 65 yd. again which is only 60 arrows for score & we use the multi color face & score it 10 to 1 for total 600 points. usually get about 90 shooters for it. We shoot it 2 days & have shooters come from MN. IA. IL & MI. lost of fun. Mark your calendar for fun shoot in 2016.


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## 2413gary

What about us old guys that can still climb the mountain. You going to make us only shoot 14 targets? Somebody said golfers get shorter tees. That's right but you still have to walk the course. Get on the tread mill just a little every other day. Hope to see y'all on the range.


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## Old Sarge

Gary, you old guys that can still walk the hills are very fortunate. My guess is the majority of us have a lot of difficulty. In my case I've had 4 strokes since 2005 and although most everything is ok my energy level is and will remain very low. One solution would be to just give up and throw in the towel but unfortunately I'm to stubborn. For a lot of us a sanctioned round of 14 targets would allow us to still participate and not just walk off the course when we got tired like Arcus mentioned.
In your case and other oldsters who can still do it, great have at it for as long as you can, then you can just quit like a lot of us have had to.
As far as Senior golfers playing from shorter tees, they do. Also about 99% of them ride golf carts and don't walk very far at all. If carts were disallowed golf would loose over 50% of it's participants overnight.


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## Pete53

at the last MSAA field shoot we also talked about if we had carts to ride in the 28 target course would be fine then,but I don`t think archery clubs can afford carts. once you get in the 60 years of age bracket many of us do health problems and just like a car with a lot of miles on it we don`t motivate well anymore. health issues will happen to everyone ,many of us want to still participate but with 14 targets and to tell you the truth I think the clubs and their parents would prefer 14 targets too ???


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## kballer1

Walking it self isn't usually the problem, it is the heat & humidity that we also have to put up with & than you throw in the rough terrine & usually lack of water & it all makes it that much harder. I fellows that are up to it can continue shooting the 28 target round. The thing that bothers me the worst is the humidity & having my glasses fog up & end up shooting with out them. 
On July 4 weekend I shoot the Senior National in MN. & it was in the 90's & humid but being in a open field the humidity doesn't affect the glasses like it does in the woods & didn't have any problems shooting the 90 arrows for score + the 12 practice, so terrine does seem to make a difference .


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## dragonheart II

I think the compromise might be a 14 target course instead of a 28 for the seniors. The seniors that want to shoot 28 can sign up in adult division and play with the youngsters...


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## Pete53

14 field target compromise would be wonderful ! ya the heat,glasses foggy,heat and terrain all my problems with the long walk. I shot only the MSAA state field at Saratoga club ya was set up great and I can`t do it anymore its just to much. the one other thing that has not been mention is people are now more healthy and live much longer,so just maybe there does need to be a compromise like 14 targets to get us older people to continue shooting since we are now retired and maybe even some new older faces too ? the state clubs and the NFAA are foolish not to change to 14 targets for us seniors , it just makes since more money !


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## field14

Pete53 said:


> 14 field target compromise would be wonderful ! ya the heat,glasses foggy,heat and terrain all my problems with the long walk. I shot only the MSAA state field at Saratoga club ya was set up great and I can`t do it anymore its just to much. the one other thing that has not been mention is people are now more healthy and live much longer,so just maybe there does need to be a compromise like 14 targets to get us older people to continue shooting since we are now retired and maybe even some new older faces too ? the state clubs and the NFAA are foolish not to change to 14 targets for us seniors , it just makes since more money !


Why not the International Round? 10 target halves, 3 arrows per target. 60 arrows for the entire round, 300 possible score. Yardages are 20 to 65 yards in 5-yard increments. Can be set up easily. Easy to maintain, obviously easy to walk, too. BUT...competitive as all get out! If you add in "expert scoring" using the field faces, (5-4-3-2-1), then you get docked for a big miss to boot!
Used to shoot the International Round a lot several years ago. Of course, it can also be shot using Hunter faces, too.

Costs of putting on the shoot are minimal, and even practice ranges can be used for it.
Heck, the "units" for each 10 target set (half) could be set up progressively in order, 20, 25, 30, 35...up through 65 yards on a "roving" field/hunter course. Senior COURSE, while the others shoot the "normal" field courses. It is not that hard.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Old Sarge

field14 said:


> Why not the International Round? 10 target halves, 3 arrows per target. 60 arrows for the entire round, 300 possible score. Yardages are 20 to 65 yards in 5-yard increments. Can be set up easily. Easy to maintain, obviously easy to walk, too. BUT...competitive as all get out! If you add in "expert scoring" using the field faces, (5-4-3-2-1), then you get docked for a big miss to boot!
> Used to shoot the International Round a lot several years ago. Of course, it can also be shot using Hunter faces, too.
> 
> Costs of putting on the shoot are minimal, and even practice ranges can be used for it.
> Heck, the "units" for each 10 target set (half) could be set up progressively in order, 20, 25, 30, 35...up through 65 yards on a "roving" field/hunter course. Senior COURSE, while the others shoot the "normal" field courses. It is not that hard.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


That is good suggestion. You could set that round up in an open field, or on a shorter course in the woods.
Like some others have said the walking isn't too bad but the steep hills and heat are what got me. Living in the south I should be used to the heat but every year it gets worse. Maybe I should move! Anyone know of any courses on flat ground where it doesn't get hot? Ha Ha!


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## Arcus

Sarge & Pete: Don't take this as criticism, but just trying to understand your thinking. If there is not a sanctioned shoot with just 14 targets as the official round, then you would rather give up field entirely rather than shoot at club shoots and stop shooting during the round whenever you choose? Is the main draw of a sanctioned tournament a public recognition of how your score compares to others? (Since we are all different, there is no wrong answer.)


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## Pete53

first I want thank field 14 for is thought on this topic good ideal. during the field shoot many of us still want to compete and yes shoot a 14 target sanctioned shoot.seniors can at least do 14 targets yet. have you noticed marathons have 5 k 10 k and so on,and golf the seniors have shorter holes and ride in carts ? so yes I want to be part of the sanction shoot with some recognition of score and yes I will quit just like many-many seniors have in field archery.here in Minnesota the older seniors still shoot archery in the state target but none come to the state field round to shoot.i feel very honored when some of the great older seniors who used to be top pro`s come shoot the state 20 yard indoor , the state fita, and the state target but like I said none shoot the field and why ? its just to much ! even one of the worlds best in his day comes to all the state shoots except the state field his name " Jim Poen". so I think there is problem that the directors need to solve and sweeping us seniors under the rug is not the answer.


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## kballer1

Pete it is Jim Ploen & yes he is still shooting & with fingers & recurve, 2 years ago at the Senior Nationals he broke 3 records & I believe he was shooting in the 85/89 age division. Hope I make it to that age & still shooting!


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## Old Sarge

Arcus said:


> Sarge & Pete: Don't take this as criticism, but just trying to understand your thinking. If there is not a sanctioned shoot with just 14 targets as the official round, then you would rather give up field entirely rather than shoot at club shoots and stop shooting during the round whenever you choose? Is the main draw of a sanctioned tournament a public recognition of how your score compares to others? (Since we are all different, there is no wrong answer.)


Arcus yep I would rather just quit. It's not that the score matters anymore because my skills have diminished to where score is unlikely to ever win anything. I just like to compete, and finish what I start. I've been involved in athletics of some sort all my life. My dad played minor league baseball, and so I grew up in a competitive environment. I played professional golf for 15 years, used to be a good archer (no longer) but still enjoy the challenge if trying my best. Played high level fast pitch softball, then coached my daughter who played softball through college. If I were to start a tournament then have to walk off in the middle of it because I wasn't strong enough to finish what I started it would break my heart. I would never come back. Practice is a different matter. You can shoot 4-5 targets then go home and it doesn't matter. But what's the point in that. I only practice to work on form and try to get better, which I can do in my backyard.


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## Pete53

old sarge, amen to what you wrote,my father taught me no matter how well or how poorly you do you finish what you started ! my father was golden gloves boxer and much more. yes jim ploen I spelled his name wrong !


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## archer_nm

Gary you got it right, hell we are both in our sixtys, Tom, Frank Pearson, Louie Rangel, Jerry Avery, I could go on and on listing names of shooters who are late 60, 70 and in more than a few cases even 80's. In my opinion Archery is what has kept these shooters young and most will shoot until it's time to leave this world. Like it was said prior we have a lot of rounds that don't require all that much walking. I am sorry that health is stopping some of you from shooting field archery but there is alternatives.


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## Pete53

I like to try as a senior to shoot a good free style score and with glasses fogging,over heated and yes to many targets "28" I just can`t nor can many other free style seniors shoot a good score, but if a person just wants to fling arrows at the 28 targets go right ahead and fling ,I seen those scores posted too. so when you see less senior faces shooting archery field events with no solution but to just stay the same its no wonder field archery is a dieing event in archery, and lets not forget the cubs and their parents 28 targets for them is to much too and many cubs quit too. maybe its time for new blood in the nfaa??


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## Old Sarge

Bob I saw your post this morning while I was drinking my coffee. I for one am glad that you remain in good health along with your friends you mentioned. More power to all of you and I wish you many more good years. Thank you very much for stating your feelings on this matter as an Officer of the NFAA. I realize your response in no way would represent the official NFAA position until proper voting protocol was concluded.

I looked back over the posts that I and others have written and nowhere did I find where anyone asked that the NFAA change the standard 28 target round for those who wish to shoot it. If you can find that anywhere please point it out to me and I will stand corrected.

What really is disappointing however is that an organization which just concluded it's National Championship would find adding a modified class for some old guys so difficult and objectionable. After all the showcase outdoor event you just held included no less than 23 classes featuring 3 or less competitors per class. Many of the 23 only had 1 or 2 shooters in the class, these numbers do not include cubs or youth. This is not enough shooters per class to even form a normal 4 person shooting group. For the NFAA to allow this many sparsely populated, dying classes and not offer a modified class is certainly some kind if a joke.

Bob I can only hope that you and your buddies never have to go through what I and so many seniors go through. I would hate for you to feel as we do. 
Best of luck to you and the NFAA going forward. The Organization will need it if they continue with it's current model.


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## equilibrium

Hey,
I would and do, love to shoot with older archers. I have learned so much more, then I would have without them around. They (old timers) are the shoulders we use now to go forward with. I think the NFAA or any other organization, would be missing the rich tapestry that these women and men bring to the sport. I shot the PA Field (trad) and the best day was when they spit up my group and I shot with Master Seniors. Watching them be bull headed and hearing their stories was great. Made me feel more relaxed. Of course meeting all the Trad Archers was great. I love grumpy old people, I want to be one......LOL.


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## Pete53

At the 2015 nfaa national field shoot this year there was 18 classes with 3 or less archers in each of those classes . so really bob the nfaa can`t have a modified 14 target per day 60 and older free style class for some beatup old dudes like me ? so I will repeat what OLD SARGE had to say : BEST OF LUCK TO YOU AND NFAA GOING FORWARD.THE ORGANIZATION WILL NEED IT IF THEY CONTINUE WITH IT`S CURRENT MODEL .


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## shawn_in_MA

Field archery itself needs a swift boot in the *****. IMO, the round (field and hunter) needs to be shortened (3 arrows per target), eliminate the fans, scoring should be the same across the board (either standard scoring, expert scoring, or X as 6 scoring...just do it the same for ALL classes), and there are way too many classes as has been brought up in this thread, and a 5 day nationals is a bit ridiculous. Drop it to 3 days and count all your scores


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## BowMakr

Sorry, but I disagree. I turn 60 in a few days, and I like archery for the challenge, I don't want it to be easier, and certainly not any fewer arrows. We've been seeing too much of this, the FITA tournaments don't shoot 90 meters anymore, National Championships SHOULD be a big tournament, but they've been shortened by both NFAA and US Archery. The NFAA shortened the American round by creating a "Classic" round. We already have enough easier rounds, let's keep the challenge in Field.


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## Arcus

Pete & Sarge - When did you have to give up shooting at national or state tournaments?


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## archer_nm

Pete part of the reason that you find as few as 3 in a division is we have tooooooo many divisions, get rid of all the extra divisions and that will handle most of the small issues. But that would get rid of all of the senior divisions and make every one over 18 Adults, plane and simple. But since I know you some what, this would not sit very well with you. Then we are at the point of "we need to be smaller but not my Division or Style" someone please come up with an answer that won't offend someone or someone's Division or style. PLEASE


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## rsw

I have recommended considering the international round for years on here, but nobody even responded to the suggestion. Of course we could never get the traditionalists to consider such a radical change, but it is, in my opinion, the only thing to do that might save field archery for a few more years. Colorado had an international round state championship for years back in the 60s/70s and it was the most highly attended shoot of all. It does many things to our advantage - reduces time shooting, requires less ground, reduces set up and range maintenance reqts, less expense for targets, and in my opinion, eliminates a few senseless targets for modern archers. At 75, I am still able to shoot 28 targets easily enough, but I am tired of losing archers to outdated birdie, fan, walk-up targets and hard to understand rules which drive away potential new archers. It is time to modernize - if only we could get rid of those damn dinosaur, traditionalist directors so we could make some progress!!


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## rsw

Bob:
I think we all recognize that over several years, the NFAA has bent over backwards to accommodate archers wanting to change something - just look at the BHFS class. It doesn't even slightly resemble what it was originally and should be eliminated in its present form (or maybe be sent back to its original state). Those who shoot it today should accept that or just move into FS or perhaps make FS move into BHFS. Rules should be changed to eliminate any class (at state, sectional, or national) that has fewer than 3, 3, or 7 competitors. Personally, I believe senior classes should begin at 60 or 65 and be a single class, and more than sighted and unsighted divisions is also overkill. Having 100 or so national champs is just ridiculous. Eliminate the division between finger and release. Oh to be the radical king for a day in the NFAA.


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## shawn_in_MA

BowMakr said:


> Sorry, but I disagree. I turn 60 in a few days, and I like archery for the challenge, I don't want it to be easier, and certainly not any fewer arrows. We've been seeing too much of this, the FITA tournaments don't shoot 90 meters anymore, National Championships SHOULD be a big tournament, but they've been shortened by both NFAA and US Archery. The NFAA shortened the American round by creating a "Classic" round. We already have enough easier rounds, let's keep the challenge in Field.


It's great that there is a challenge in field, the harder the course is the more I like it...but if you don't have the shooters to support it then it's time to make adjustments. When the biggest and most competitive class has 50 shooters in it, the writing is on the wall.


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## Pete53

I would be ok with one class for all 18 and older male and female with a lewis system,but I still disagree with 28 targets and 4 arrows per target,change format to either 14 targets and 4 arrows per target or 20 targets 3 arrows per target.more clubs could then afford easier to set up a range with less bales and less land,plus shooters I bet would be much happier and get done sooner for the day. cubs 2 classes,youth 2 classes , young adult 2 classes ,that equals in each age bracket 1 male class and 1 female class. two pro classes male and female. 
> that makes 2 pro classes - 1 adult class with a lewis system - 6 classes with age under 18. but here is one rule that would involve all archers : any archer no matter age that receives more than $200.00 of free or sponsored archery equipment or travel expense for target or hunting must shoot in the pro class or will be disqualified for 1 year.> bob take that to the nfaa council


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## ccwilder3

Florida has a state International round championship. It is not as well attended as the state field championship.


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## Pete53

here in Minnesota we have two state clubs the maa-nfaa with only maybe less than a 100 members and the MSAA with 2,000 members the MSAA has very good turnouts for all of the state shoots and I bet the MSAA not being part of the nfaa will listen to there members much better, so us older seniors will probably be able to have 14 field targets in the future .we also have a new lady MSAA president who to me is doing an excellent job for the MSAA and always seems interested in what all members want even us old seniors,its no wonder the MSAA continues to grow larger in membership.


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## Arcus

Pete53 said:


> here in Minnesota we have two state clubs the maa-nfaa with only maybe less than a 100 members and the MSAA with 2,000 members the MSAA has very good turnouts for all of the state shoots and I bet the MSAA not being part of the nfaa will listen to there members much better, so us older seniors will probably be able to have 14 field targets in the future .we also have a new lady MSAA president who to me is doing an excellent job for the MSAA and always seems interested in what all members want even us old seniors,its no wonder the MSAA continues to grow larger in membership.


I'll be interested to hear when the MSAA adopts your recommendation. Please keep us posted.


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## Arcus

Arcus said:


> Pete & Sarge - When did you have to give up shooting at national or state tournaments?


Let's put it a different way. If the NFAA adopted your recommendations, would you shoot at the national or sectional tournaments?


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## Arcus

Pete53 said:


> I bet the MSAA not being part of the nfaa will listen to there members much better


Rule changes by an unaffiliated state organization is simpler than expecting a national organization (NFAA) to adopt your suggestions for implementation nationwide. As for the NFAA not listening to you and those of your viewpoint, that's just another way of saying it doesn't agree with you. If the NFAA adopted your recommendations, then those who support the current system (like several who posted on this thread) could claim that the NFAA didn't listen to them.


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## archer_nm

Arcus, you are very right in what you have said but some here at one time claimed that they could get that other organization to come back to the NFAA, that did not happen not that he did not have good intentions. But there were about 3 States that refused to fulfill there obligations under the NFAA constitution even after they were warned and thus were stripped of their affiliation. So as you know take some of what is said with a grain of salt, because the chances of them re-joining are slim to none even if we changed everything


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## Pete53

if the nfaa did change to 14 field targets a day for seniors I would shoot the sectionals when they are held in Minnesota. now for the statement about 3 states won`t or can`t join nfaa. the nfaa needs to change their foolish rigid rules and take whatever members who would join the nfaa which I still am a member of but will quit if I don`t see some changes on paper. bob please don`t get me started on why msaa was forced to leave the nfaa I was at the meeting sitting with the msaa attorney when bruce cull spoke to us.


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## archer_nm

Your other organization chose not to follow the Constitution/Bylaws of the NFAA and had a chance to rectify the situations. At the time 47 other States followed what was the rules without a problem. Pete sorry for your thinking about leaving but as Minnesota made the choice you have free will.


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## kballer1

I don't know what the rub is between the NFAA & MSAA but you would think that the NfAA would try to iron out the problem & pick up 2000 new members. The National organization could use all the new members that it can get.
What about the other 2 states that can't or won't join the NFAA.


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## archer_nm

It is not a problem of Ironing out issues, I will say it again, all 3 states chose not to adhere to the C and B of the NFAA which I might add was established by and voted on by all 50 Directors including the 3 states that refused to abide by it. We have had New State organizations for the 3 states and all of the folks have been allowed to join since they organized for years. Their choice


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## brtesite

Will this ever stop. first of all,realize that there is no NFAA to blame . It does not exist . It is all of the states , not some outfit in SD causing all of the problems. It is you the members who elect a director that makes the rules. Some are good & some really suck. Case in point when they made all of the classes a couple of years ago. Who ever voted for that debacle should hang their head in shame. they never took into account the impact that it would have on the clubs & archery in general. They are consuming themselves . It is nice to win a bowl, but how proud are you to be the only one in the class. But maybe that is the way of the world. Rewarding mediocrity . As for those who like the ranges to be hard because they like a challenge , I'm 82, & don't need any more challenges in my life. I have a problem getting around Mechanicsburgh & that is a piece of cake.
I have spent more than 25 years of my life as a director & councilman for the NFAA, & have seen a bunch of archery killers come down the pike. 
I'm sure I may have voted for some, for which I apologize . I do know that I did some good ones. The states that don't follow the NFAA, I think that Maybe there should be a committee formed to negotiate the problems. Maybe some of it is being pigheaded. 
Any how , if you don't like the rules ,try to get involved to make it better. I do know that there is such a thing called fiefdom & it is hard to get into the inner circles. 
Don't be bashing the NFAA, if you do ,it is like throwing dirt in your own face. It is a great organization


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## Pete53

Mr. LePera, very well said and as a member of the nfaa-maa and the msaa yes I think that would a great ideal to get rid of all the pigheaded past and try to work out with the other three states some solution bringing all 3 states back in the nfaa. one of the three being my home state of Minnesota and then just maybe unify Minnesota into one state archery association again, along with somehow we as Minnesotan`s are still aloud to be nfaa members too.this is why I continue bring this up, change will be good for the nfaa and all of the states,this foolish rule problem needs to be resolved soon and if the directors won`t change their attitude maybe we as members of the nfaa need change ? thank you Mr. LePera,Pete53


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## huteson2us2

In this age of the internet, I have always wondered what would happen to the NFAA if members would be allowed to vote, on the internet, for President and rule changes. The guy shooting a self bow with wooden arrows and release would not be able to get enough votes to get his own class. But if a popular NFAA director wanted this class it would exist by next year. Could you imagine the USA if only Congress was allowed to vote for our president.

One more thing, I understand that the NFAA councilman that decided to put the seniors on the hardest ranges at Darrington for the first three days, last time it was there, was not able to shoot the second day. Might be just a rumor but I believe it.


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## dragonheart II

rsw said:


> Bob:
> I think we all recognize that over several years, the NFAA has bent over backwards to accommodate archers wanting to change something - just look at the BHFS class. It doesn't even slightly resemble what it was originally and should be eliminated in its present form (or maybe be sent back to its original state). Those who shoot it today should accept that or just move into FS or perhaps make FS move into BHFS. Rules should be changed to eliminate any class (at state, sectional, or national) that has fewer than 3, 3, or 7 competitors. Personally, I believe senior classes should begin at 60 or 65 and be a single class, and more than sighted and unsighted divisions is also overkill. Having 100 or so national champs is just ridiculous. Eliminate the division between finger and release. Oh to be the radical king for a day in the NFAA.


To say that BHFS does not even slightly resemble the old BHFS is a bit extreme. Still 5 pins, no magnification, 12 inch stabilizer. One thing that you will see with BHFS is shooters competing in that class. To eliminate that class makes no sense. It supports itself. This is the way most people hunt with a bow and arrow today. If you think of the original intent of the BHFS class it was for a hunting style of equipment, and the original purpose of the founders of the NFAA was for a course more resembling hunting than target archery, in the woods. Short of the counter balance, (which IMHO should be eliminated or have a length limitation) the equipment guidelines are right inline with current equipment used by many top bowhunters. At Las Vegas this year I counted in the scores 212 shooters in the bowhunter flights. So what does a bowhunter that wants to compete in field archery need to accept?

I agree with you on the seniors, but there are alot of seniors in NFAA! 

If I had my druthers BHFS would look like this:

f. Bowhunter Unlimited (B.U.)
a. Any type of bow and release aid recognised by the IFAA World Council is
permitted.
International Field Archery Association
Book of Rules: 2015-2016 edition 32 32
b. A sight with 4 or 5 fixed reference points will be allowed and neither the sight nor
any reference point shall be moved during a round.
c. Pin sights are to be of straight stock from point of anchor to sighting points, held
nearer horizontal than vertical within the sight, with only one sighting reference
possible from each pin or reference point. Hooded pins or scope sights are not
permitted.
d. Optical devices that assist the archer to obtain consistency in eye alignment and
anchor point are not permitted.
e. The use of a levelling device is not permitted. In the event that a levelling device is
incorporated in the pin sight, such device shall be removed or shall be covered with
tape.
f. Any type of arrow rest is permitted
g. Only one permanent nocking point is allowed on the string. The nocking point may
be marked by one or two nock locators or a “D” loop.
h. Any type of release aid is permitted.
i. A kisser button or string peep sight will be permitted but not both. No form of
magnifying device may be incorporated in, or attached to, the peep sight.
j. Pin Guards/brush guards may be used provided that the distance between the bottom
of the top guard and the top pin must be greater than the distance between the top
pin and the next highest pin. The same clearance as for the top sight pin applies also
to the bottom pin and the bottom guard.
k. All arrows used shall be identical in length, weight, diameter, fletching and nocks,
without regard for colour, with allowance for wear and tear.
l. Brush buttons in their proper places at the recurve tip of the bow, string silencers no
closer than twelve inch above or below the nocking point and bow quiver installed
on the opposite side of the sight window with no part of the quiver visible in the bow
window is permitted.
m. One straight stabiliser, coupling device included, if used, not exceeding twelve inch
as measured from the back of the bow may be used. No forked stabiliser or any
counter balance will be legal. The plunger (where the stabiliser is screwed in) is
part of the stabiliser.
n. Draw weight shall not be adjusted during any one round.


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## brtesite

And 125 gr points


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## dragonheart II

Modern Bowhunter in the field...









The traditionalist in me wants to agree with you Mr. LePera, but the realist in me recognizes that many bowhunters shoot 100 grain broadheads. So maybe 100 grain minimum, but let's return to a screw in point instead of a glue in target point.


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## brtesite

dragonheart II said:


> Modern Bowhunter in the field...
> 
> View attachment 2722706
> 
> 
> The traditionalist in me wants to agree with you Mr. LePera, but the realist in me recognizes that many bowhunters shoot 100 grain broadheads. So maybe 100 grain minimum, but let's return to a screw in point instead of a glue in target point.


 Ok by me, how ever what we all have to remember that the Bh divisions never had any thing to do with bow hunting .It started out as Heavy tackle div. only requirement was 125 grain tip. When there was only recurves to be shot, you needed about 65 lbs to reach the 80 yder
Then came the compound , sights, releases, stabilizers & everything then went to hell.


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## archer_nm

Pete why can't you understand that all of the above is a STATE issue your 2 organizations need to join together it has nothing to do with the NFAA at this point. Nothing is stoping everyone in your state from joining the NFAA Organization but themselves. kballer you are correct in that it seems that they are picking not to join the NFAA side of the house. Matter of fact the MSAA seems not to want folks to join the NFAA or they would be pushing for it, but when you look at it in reality it is a money issue as we are in direct competion with them for the archery dollars in their state.


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## Pete53

one way thinking is not going to solve anything nor will it ever improve membership for any state or national organization,both sides are wrong and not improving relationships. to not resolve this issue only hurts archery in this country. there has been mention that a committee may help this problem so think about a positive open solution,so saying what or who is at fault has no solution and when anyone says these things it is no help.i am for a open new solution for both sides to solve the issue for the good of archery !


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## archer_nm

Pete, In the past I have tried to help you but you are helpless as you don't want to blame anyone but the NFAA. All of the MSAA members are welcome to join the NFAA why don't you work on this... I am through with this thread. Good bye


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## wa-prez

BHFS rules can be (and has been) a whole topic unto itself, as it is a very separate issue from Field shooting for age 60+.

But since someone brought it up, the one item in that list of BHFS rules that I have trouble with is this:
b. A sight with 4 or 5 fixed reference points will be allowed and neither the sight nor any reference point shall be moved during a round.

Specifically that by limiting sight to 4 or 5 fixed reference points, it eliminates those who shoot a 3-pin fixed pin sight. There are plenty of those on the market, and plenty of guys that prefer them for hunting and for 3D shooting. And among the Cubs and Youth who shoot BHFS, 3 pins is usually plenty to cover their distance range.


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## brtesite

wa-prez said:


> BHFS rules can be (and has been) a whole topic unto itself, as it is a very separate issue from Field shooting for age 60+.
> 
> But since someone brought it up, the one item in that list of BHFS rules that I have trouble with is this:
> b. A sight with 4 or 5 fixed reference points will be allowed and neither the sight nor any reference point shall be moved during a round.
> 
> Specifically that by limiting sight to 4 or 5 fixed reference points, it eliminates those who shoot a 3-pin fixed pin sight. There are plenty of those on the market, and plenty of guys that prefer them for hunting and for 3D shooting. And among the Cubs and Youth who shoot BHFS, 3 pins is usually plenty to cover their distance range.




I do believe that is the max pins allowed. Not the min


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## Pete53

well we have heard from how some people feel and some want to stay very rigid and continue down the same path, I for one think there could be a solution but the answer is NO in stone ! thanks for all the positive comments posted ! > not all the MSAA want to join the nfaa but some do , but i am sure a percentage would and some of us already are nfaa members for now ? this is the year 2015 not 1965 when many rules were made,people did not live as long in 1965 in U.S.A., it just might be time for some changes ?


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## wa-prez

brtesite said:


> I do believe that is the max pins allowed. Not the min


If there was intention to allow fewer than four pins, why would it be phrased "A sight with 4 or 5 fixed reference points" when it would have been easy to say "A maximum of 5 fixed reference points".

I think the rule was drafted to eliminate single-pin sights, and that MIGHT be a good idea, but to write a rule that doesn't allow 3-pin sights bumps a lot of archers (and often those least competitive) into Freestyle when BHFS is the right place for them.


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## dragonheart II

The rules I posted are for IFAA competition, not NFAA just to clarify. I was just pointing out that would be my preference. I apologize for sidetracking the thread, as BHFS is off topic.


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## EPLC

I'll be 70 on November 14th and have no issues with local and regional shoots staying at 28 targets. Realistically, I don't see this changing anytime soon. That said; shoots like the NFAA Outdoor Field Nationals that are 5 full days of shooting could use some adjustment. I found fatigue a real issue this year at the Nationals and I'm in very good condition. A simple rule change could alleviate stamina issues for some older archers, or younger couch potatoes for that matter. Currently amateurs shoot two full rounds of field and two full rounds of hunter and throw out the two low scores. If they broke this into halves, throwing out the two lowest halves, it would solve this issue. This way those that want to shoot the full rounds may do so and those that want to shoot 1/2 rounds can also do so. Full rounds and partial would be possible as well. 

Example: Day 1 Joe shoots 14 field. On day 2 he shoots 14 Hunter. On day 3 he shoots the final 14 field and finishes up the hunter round with 14 on day 4. Joe's friend Fred decides to shoot the entire round on all 4 days. Of the 8 halves the two lowest halves for field and hunter are thrown out. You could also shoot full rounds on some days and partial on others, just keep the highest 2 halves for field and highest 2 hunter halves. I believe this is a solution, like so many that would not require any actual change to the venue, that is reasonable and doable. It satisfies the needs and/or preferences of all without really changing anything.


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## Pete53

glad you posted your thought on bhfs, it kinda also shows how negative the NFAA is with change,just like many seniors with some health issues. here in Minnesota the MSAA still continues to grow and MSAA is at least looking at some changes for seniors for next year 2016,sure glad I am a MSAA life member of this very positive state archery club,which is willing to help all members with change if needed.


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## rsarns

2413gary said:


> What about us old guys that can still climb the mountain. You going to make us only shoot 14 targets? Somebody said golfers get shorter tees. That's right but you still have to walk the course. Get on the tread mill just a little every other day. Hope to see y'all on the range.


I have had serious injuries, medivac to Germany for a 2 months stint, and a few years ago, due to my disabilities and DNA had a couple heart attacks. So I decided to make a big change, I got with my cardiologist, setup a workout plan and now do 4 miles minimum everyday, either treadmill, elipticial or just a jog outside. I also joined a gym, where there is a bunch of other old farts trying to live longer. I'm over 60, in the best aerobic shape of my life, 30 pounds lighter and feeling great. Now if I can do it, why can't you? I agree with Gary here, get back in shape, 28 targets isn't too much, heck I shoot some of the toughest course every week, Darrington, and Silver Arrow and if you put some effort into it, you can do it. Heck Gerald Hickman is still out there doing it, if you aren't, then its your own fault... not the NFAA's. As far as shooting the upper courses at Darrington, they are my favorite, and if they won't let senior or silver senior shoot them, I'll sign up as an adult then...


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## TNMAN

EPLC said:


> I'll be 70 on November 14th and have no issues with local and regional shoots staying at 28 targets. Realistically, I don't see this changing anytime soon. That said; shoots like the NFAA Outdoor Field Nationals that are 5 full days of shooting could use some adjustment. I found fatigue a real issue this year at the Nationals and I'm in very good condition. A simple rule change could alleviate stamina issues for some older archers, or younger couch potatoes for that matter. Currently amateurs shoot two full rounds of field and two full rounds of hunter and throw out the two low scores. If they broke this into halves, throwing out the two lowest halves, it would solve this issue. This way those that want to shoot the full rounds may do so and those that want to shoot 1/2 rounds can also do so. Full rounds and partial would be possible as well.
> 
> Example: Day 1 Joe shoots 14 field. On day 2 he shoots 14 Hunter. On day 3 he shoots the final 14 field and finishes up the hunter round with 14 on day 4. Joe's friend Fred decides to shoot the entire round on all 4 days. Of the 8 halves the two lowest halves for field and hunter are thrown out. You could also shoot full rounds on some days and partial on others, just keep the highest 2 halves for field and highest 2 hunter halves. I believe this is a solution, like so many that would not require any actual change to the venue, that is reasonable and doable. It satisfies the needs and/or preferences of all without really changing anything.


But, if Joe and Fred are about equal shooters, throwing out 4 bad halves would almost guarantee Fred is going stomp his friend Joe in the mud. You do see how much advantage shooting full rounds would be, don't you Fred?

I see a backup problem with groups coming off of both 14 and 28 wanting to shoot target 1. Target assignments would be tricky too. Same rules for everyone is basic.


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## EPLC

TNMAN said:


> But, if Joe and Fred are about equal shooters, throwing out 4 bad halves would almost guarantee Fred is going stomp his friend Joe in the mud. You do see how much advantage shooting full rounds would be, don't you Fred?
> 
> I see a backup problem with groups coming off of both 14 and 28 wanting to shoot target 1. Target assignments would be tricky too. Same rules for everyone is basic.


And Joe has the option to shoot all if he wants. Of course there is an advantage but only slightly more than it is now as you already don't have to shoot all days and throw out the 2 low scores. The thread is about reducing the fatigue factor for those that need that. This would reduce the wear and tear on those that choose to shoot it one half at a time.

Keep in mind that major change is almost impossible to obtain. This really doesn't change the game, only how the scoring is broken down. There would need to be some bugs ironed out but it would be doable.


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## Pete53

talking about getting back into shape ,well some of us worked hard all our life and just have some health issues that can`t be completely rehealed so you can`t always get back into great shape by working out but yes I do work out but the heat is still a problem. by the way I was a pole climber for 35 years or power lineman we didn`t have buckets the first 25 years and living in Minnesota working in all weather conditions and issues all nite sometimes 35-40 hrs. without time off before we got to go home,snowstorms--20-30 below out in the woods on poles 30 mile wind storms,with my bad back but we got the power back on always ! yes i had a couple of accidents on the job back surgeries,knee surgery and other surgeries, so some of us don`t bounce back to being healthy anymore.glad some of you can get into good shape again, alot may have depended what your job was and if you had to do heavy physical work which i did and-or if some of you set at a desk ?


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## rsarns

Pete53 said:


> talking about getting back into shape ,well some of us worked hard all our life and just have some health issues that can`t be completely rehealed so you can`t always get back into great shape by working out but yes I do work out but the heat is still a problem. by the way I was a pole climber for 35 years or power lineman we didn`t have buckets the first 25 years and living in Minnesota working in all weather conditions and issues all nite sometimes 35-40 hrs. without time off before we got to go home,snowstorms--20-30 below out in the woods on poles 30 mile wind storms,with my bad back but we got the power back on always ! yes i had a couple of accidents on the job back surgeries,knee surgery and other surgeries, so some of us don`t bounce back to being healthy anymore.glad some of you can get into good shape again, alot may have depended what your job was and if you had to do heavy physical work which i did and-or if some of you set at a desk ?


LOL... no desk, 30 years expeditionary military. Oh ya easy stuff. Pete, I have read a lot of your posts, and like Bob, I am pretty sure you do nothing but bash the NFAA and make excuses, even for your lack of effort. If YOU can't handle the field round, then maybe you should take up a different game. I refer back to Gerald, 80 years old, only half his heart works, and he still is out there on the toughest courses competing, no excuses for him. Or his wife and many others.


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## Pete53

rasns : did you read all the posts ?I just started out asking a simple question and plus I like to shoot good scores not just fling arrows at the target. and as far as bash`n the NFAA really isn`t it about time people try to make some changes? but on the positive side , glad you did well in the military and as an American thanks for your service ,I hunt and fish with two wounded frontline viet nam marines both super guys to be with ,I also worked with many service veterans over the years.


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## EPLC

For those suggesting half round competitions, try and get something going at your local club and see if there is any interest.


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## Pete53

the MSAA is looking into changing the field round for seniors to 14 targets per day,it does not mean it will be change but at least the MSAA is trying to help.i also suggested that cubs and smaller age classes change maybe to 14 targets a day too,part of my reason for this change is so younger kids stay interested and the parents tag`n along don`t get to bored too. archery is suppose to be fun not just keep drag`n on all day when its hot.


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## grantmac

I've said this before, and I'll say it again now. A switch to world archery rules would completely eliminate these problems.

Grant


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## ccwilder3

grantmac said:


> I've said this before, and I'll say it again now. A switch to world archery rules would completely eliminate these problems.
> 
> Grant


Have you looked at the attendance of the USA archery Field Championship compared to the NFAA Field Championship? A change to WA rules would spell the end of field shooting in the U.S.


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## bowtechky

We had our state outdoor field on the 15th and 16th, with 12 seniors from age 60 to 78. I told them about this post and there wasn't a single person in favor of reducing the number of targets, we shot 28 field and 28 animal on Saturday and 28 hunter on Sunday. many said that's why they enjoy shooting field rounds in lieu of 3d because of the amount of shooting. you can shoot a 3d round and shoot 20 to 30 arrows in 3 or 4 hours or shoot 112 arrows in the same amount of time. it is a game of endurance, we have many good indoor shooters that wouldn't shoot outdoor even if you reduced it to 14 targets simply because they don't won't to put in the effort to walk around the range.


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## Pete53

in Minnesota we had our state MSAA field shoot in july it was 85-95 degrees high humidity, high hills up and down,no wind, we had few seniors and the seniors there that shot in the harder scoring class F.S. the top four that I shot in all agreed that 14 targets under these conditions is enough and no we had no shooters much older than 65 years of age, much older archer`s would have never made that hard course at the Saratoga club under the extreme heat,it is a great place to shoot archery for younger archers but very difficult for the age archer during that type of heat. if its flatter ground and not to hot sure its easy too shoot 28 targets,i challenge these archers in their senior years to shoot Saratoga club for two days under the same conditions we shot for two days of the ages mentioned,bet most can`t do it, and I will shoot with them bring them all 60-78 years of age.


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## grantmac

ccwilder3 said:


> Have you looked at the attendance of the USA archery Field Championship compared to the NFAA Field Championship? A change to WA rules would spell the end of field shooting in the U.S.


If you go by numbers nfaa field is dying, how many people are learning field? WA field is increasing despite have nearly zero support from the governing org.
Look at other parts of the world and you will see how popular WA field is in countries where there is support. That is because it's simply a better game. Fewer classes, far simpler rules and much less realestate intensive. Heck in theory you could shoot a 24 target round with four bales!

Grant


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## archer_nm

What change in numbers are you referring to Grantmac, there has not been a significant drop in a number of years and the membership is growing. There has been a little increase in WA field and this is due to the increase in BB numbers but still nothing significant.


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## T2SHOOTER

I'm 73; wife's 65, and the tougher the better. Our club puts on monthly field events where we've never missed one. Leave it alone, and keep the classes. That's the camp we're in. I was told that many of the events we've done are too hard. The only thing hard about them is the super long waits that has nothing to do with classes and more to do to rude shooters. On field courses and our 3D events, four to five across can shoot. When you choose to shoot one at a time, and drag the day out, that's the rub. It's not the difficult courses, nor the amount of arrows shot, but the lack of respect for others.


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## Pete53

let`s not forget waiting for some of the archer`s to find their arrows because they don`t always even hit the bales let alone the target ,now that`s rude ! when trying to shoot a good score the proper way is two archer`s shooting at a time one on each side of the stake ,otherwise your just flinging arrows. in the class I shoot F.S. to shoot a good score does take time and 28 targets in the heat is to much . other senior classes with much less competition its a lot easier and your scores don`t have to be that good either,seem`s we are not comparing apples to apples in the senior classes ? put all seniors in the same class I am fine with that too but we all know many will quit because those archer`s cannot compete and just want a trophy in their small class of 2 or 3 archer`s.> yes the true hurts but common it`s very true we have way to many classes just to keep people happy and get a title or trophy. so otherwise why not allow some senior archers with medical problems to have a class with 14 field targets too ?


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## T2SHOOTER

Whatever way one can abuse the event, hurts all. Never had to wait for anyone looking for arrows, but if you're in the camp bring more arrows because we won't wait for you--after score is recorded, we're out of there. Keep in moving or feel the wrath. Smile.


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## ccwilder3

archer_nm said:


> What change in numbers are you referring to Grantmac, there has not been a significant drop in a number of years and the membership is growing. There has been a little increase in WA field and this is due to the increase in BB numbers but still nothing significant.


I agree completely. People keep saying NFAA is dying when in fact its membership is going up. 

Only seven men showed up to shoot in the compound men class last year at the USA Archery Field Championship. *Seven*. 

The NFAA had well over two hundred shooting in the male compound classes this year.


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## Arcus

Pete53 said:


> ...we have way to many classes just to keep people happy and get a title or trophy. so otherwise why not allow some senior archers with medical problems to have a class with 14 field targets too ?


You say there are way too many classes, yet you want to create another one?


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## Pete53

well I just got in from a 2 mile hike with a 40 lb. pack its 85 and humid today sit`n down enjoying a pop with the air on now, thought I would check out this post for some more negative comments and yep got another one, thanks again . here we go one more time : what I am saying is yes there are to many classes so why not create another class its a free for all now anyway,whats another class ? or just put all seniors in one class ? truthfully with all the negative comments and some archer`s have positive comments too and some older seniors saying how great of shape they are in and want to shoot all 28 targets no matter that their scores are poor ,and some of us knowing its just a wall that is not going to change with the nfaa . I have been getting positive P.M. comments about yes my post to change the class is right but they also know nothing in the nfaa will ever change. so I wish the nfaa some luck in the future ! but boy this pop today is tasty and cold !


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## grantmac

ccwilder3 said:


> I agree completely. People keep saying NFAA is dying when in fact its membership is going up.
> 
> Only seven men showed up to shoot in the compound men class last year at the USA Archery Field Championship. *Seven*.
> 
> The NFAA had well over two hundred shooting in the male compound classes this year.


That is a question of promotion and scheduling. The rules and game are far superior, have you shot it before?

Grant


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## ccwilder3

grantmac said:


> That is a question of promotion and scheduling. The rules and game are far superior, have you shot it before?
> 
> Grant



*Seven*


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## archer_nm

NFAA Members you think there are too many styles boy do I agree but it was YOUR STATE Directors that voted this mess in and I proposed a change 2 years ago but it fell on deaf ears. Just so ALL of you know the Constitution and Bylaws can only be changed by Directors and not by Council so talk to your states representatives.


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## 2413gary

I can't Believe an old fart like you made 2 miles with 40lbs LOL


Pete53 said:


> well I just got in from a 2 mile hike with a 40 lb. pack its 85 and humid today sit`n down enjoying a pop with the air on now, thought I would check out this post for some more negative comments and yep got another one, thanks again . here we go one more time : what I am saying is yes there are to many classes so why not create another class its a free for all now anyway,whats another class ? or just put all seniors in one class ? truthfully with all the negative comments and some archer`s have positive comments too and some older seniors saying how great of shape they are in and want to shoot all 28 targets no matter that their scores are poor ,and some of us knowing its just a wall that is not going to change with the nfaa . I have been getting positive P.M. comments about yes my post to change the class is right but they also know nothing in the nfaa will ever change. so I wish the nfaa some luck in the future ! but boy this pop today is tasty and cold !


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## Arcus

Since I am satisfied to just participate in club shoots and not national shoots (i.e., national and sectional championships), I feel that my opinion regarding nationwide rule changes should carry less weight than the opinions from those who do shoot national events, since the rule changes would affect them more than they would affect me. And Pete, I am not directing this at you since I don't know how often you shot the national events before your medical condition set in.


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## Rolo

archer_nm said:


> NFAA Members you think there are too many styles boy do I agree but it was YOUR STATE Directors that voted this mess in and I proposed a change 2 years ago but it fell on deaf ears. Just so ALL of you know the Constitution and Bylaws can only be changed by Directors and not by Council so talk to your states representatives.


Not all of them...


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## archer_nm

If the shoe fits wear it, but I don't remember very many that voted for my proposal. If it ever comes up again then I will ask for a roll call vote and then post it on the web.....


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## Pete53

I like the open roll call vote bob, please do it, now I do think all members have a right to a suggestion on nfaa rules positive or negative and our directors should use these comments for a positive outlook to help the nfaa grow.


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## Rolo

archer_nm said:


> If the shoe fits wear it, but I don't remember very many that voted for my proposal. If it ever comes up again then I will ask for a roll call vote and then post it on the web.....


If you're talking about the 2014 AIs, was that the same year the NFAA (Council) wanted to do away with bowls entirely and offer a bigger trophy to a smaller group? Maybe smaller bowls to the rest? It was also the same year that Florida (I think) had an AI to make sure everyone in places 1-2-3 in all classes/divisions got their trophy, regardless of how many people were in it. Of course the year before, Florida wanted everyone who won a bowl to pay for the bowl too. Then, in 2014, and in response to the NFAA AI relating to bowls, Florida lead the charge to amend that AI to state that bowls go to all champions in all divisions...

Your AIs for 2014 were to combine Barebow and Bowhunter together as styles, and also combine FS Limited and FL Limited Bowhunter together. The other AI sought to undo the Senior age change that had been undertaken the year before, to re-establish the Senior Division at 55 and Master Senior at 65, and to get rid of the Silver Senior Division.

First and foremost, Directors, if they are doing what is required of them, are supposed to vote based on the desires of the state members, not what they personally feel is right. At least to the extent that members or the state org provides direction.

The charge to defeat your suggestion to combine the classes was lead by "the old guard". Personally, combining or simply eliminating certain styles makes a lot of sense to me, it just isn't popular among the members of some states and some Directors. Washington had a very similar AI to your first 2, though it combined longbow with traditional too, which made it more so doomed...and we could spend a lot of time talking about the changes to the definition of what is and is not a "longbow" that have occurred over the past couple of years... 

With regard to the third AI, I think it would have gotten a lot more support had it simply eliminated Silver Senior (an amendment to the 2013 AI that changed the senior age to 50) rather than attempt to re-establish Senior at 55 and MS at 65.

Personally, I don't view those 3 specific AIs as a cure to the "mess". The first 2 were starts in the "right" direction, but some members and some directors are protective of their turf, regardless of the economics. Of course, the discussion then becomes whether the NFAA should be based on a business model, or an opportunity model. If a business model is chosen, then significant changes to the Constitution, and the general purpose of the NFAA will have to be undertaken. The original intent was not about business, it was about opportunity. I digress...

The third AI as, it was presented, not at all a cure IMO, and I believe would have gone back to a worse and more problematic issue. Bring a modified AI, keeping Senior at 50, eliminating Silver Senior, and re-establishing MS at 65, I bet it gets more traction 

I'm also all for roll call votes, and those can be asked for at any time... 

None of this discussion, of course, has anything to do with modifying field for certain ages, or making a new class/style/division for field for certain ages..proposals tat I imagine would go over like lead balloons with the directors...at least a majority of them...


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## brtesite

Rolo said:


> If you're talking about the 2014 AIs, was that the same year the NFAA (Council) wanted to do away with bowls entirely and offer a bigger trophy to a smaller group? Maybe smaller bowls to the rest? It was also the same year that Florida (I think) had an AI to make sure everyone in places 1-2-3 in all classes/divisions got their trophy, regardless of how many people were in it. Of course the year before, Florida wanted everyone who won a bowl to pay for the bowl too. Then, in 2014, and in response to the NFAA AI relating to bowls, Florida lead the charge to amend that AI to state that bowls go to all champions in all divisions...
> 
> Your AIs for 2014 were to combine Barebow and Bowhunter together as styles, and also combine FS Limited and FL Limited Bowhunter together. The other AI sought to undo the Senior age change that had been undertaken the year before, to re-establish the Senior Division at 55 and Master Senior at 65, and to get rid of the Silver Senior Division.
> 
> First and foremost, Directors, if they are doing what is required of them, are supposed to vote based on the desires of the state members, not what they personally feel is right. At least to the extent that members or the state org provides direction.
> 
> The charge to defeat your suggestion to combine the classes was lead by "the old guard". Personally, combining or simply eliminating certain styles makes a lot of sense to me, it just isn't popular among the members of some states and some Directors. Washington had a very similar AI to your first 2, though it combined longbow with traditional too, which made it more so doomed...and we could spend a lot of time talking about the changes to the definition of what is and is not a "longbow" that have occurred over the past couple of years...
> 
> With regard to the third AI, I think it would have gotten a lot more support had it simply eliminated Silver Senior (an amendment to the 2013 AI that changed the senior age to 50) rather than attempt to re-establish Senior at 55 and MS at 65.
> 
> Personally, I don't view those 3 specific AIs as a cure to the "mess". The first 2 were starts in the "right" direction, but some members and some directors are protective of their turf, regardless of the economics. Of course, the discussion then becomes whether the NFAA should be based on a business model, or an opportunity model. If a business model is chosen, then significant changes to the Constitution, and the general purpose of the NFAA will have to be undertaken. The original intent was not about business, it was about opportunity. I digress...
> 
> The third AI as, it was presented, not at all a cure IMO, and I believe would have gone back to a worse and more problematic issue. Bring a modified AI, keeping Senior at 50, eliminating Silver Senior, and re-establishing MS at 65, I bet it gets more traction
> 
> I'm also all for roll call votes, and those can be asked for at any time...
> 
> None of this discussion, of course, has anything to do with modifying field for certain ages, or making a new class/style/division for field for certain ages..proposals tat I imagine would go over like lead balloons with the directors...at least a majority of them...[/QUOTE
> 
> Rolo, since I don't know who you are, It looks like you are on top of things. you should be a director if not all ready .
> I do believe you are correct when you say that to many decisions are made to protect Turf.


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## Pete53

seniors at 50 is kinda a mistake people are still healthy and for the most part are still working, and that was more of a nfaa business decision to change it to 50 years of age to keep member numbers ,don`t forget mr. barnsdale won vegas at 53 years of age I believe, many older peoples bodies start going down on physical health is probably closer to 60 years of age now days. the older seniors over 60 years of age are now retiring ,have more time,have a few bucks to spend and some are even enjoying archery again,its a large group of older retired people here in America. the nfaa`s old guard needs to review these senior issues and make some smart decisions to keep these older seniors as nfaa members and many of us no longer want to shoot all day, nor have the health to shoot in the heat a good score in the F.S. class but still want to compete but many of us will no longer shoot 28 targets all day, we will spend our retired pension money some other place maybe ?,so at our age many of us who did real work for a living don`t care nor have the health anymore for 28 field targets ,as older retired seniors we are looking for fun now not work anymore ! so nfaa old guard think smart ????


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## Rolo

Pete53 said:


> seniors at 50 is kinda a mistake people are still healthy and for the most part are still working, and that was more of a nfaa business decision to change it to 50 years of age to keep member numbers ,don`t forget mr. barnsdale won vegas at 53 years of age I believe, many older peoples bodies start going down on physical health is probably closer to 60 years of age now days. the older seniors over 60 years of age are now retiring ,have more time,have a few bucks to spend and some are even enjoying archery again,its a large group of older retired people here in America. the nfaa`s old guard needs to review these senior issues and make some smart decisions to keep these older seniors as nfaa members and many of us no longer want to shoot all day, nor have the health to shoot in the heat a good score in the F.S. class but still want to compete but many of us will no longer shoot 28 targets all day, we will spend our retired pension money some other place maybe ?,so at our age many of us who did real work for a living don`t care nor have the health anymore for 28 field targets ,as older retired seniors we are looking for fun now not work anymore ! so nfaa old guard think smart ????


There are so many bass ackwards, near sighted what-about-me statements in that post, I don't know where to begin...But I will start with actual factual history for you...

Changing Senior to 50 was not a business decision. It was an alignment decision...and surprisingly enough :mg:, it was a decision that was supported and asked for by a large majority of the membership who cared to respond to the various polls or to their directors. That's right Pete...the majority of NFAA members wanted the change, and the directors voted the majority interests of the folks they represent...imagine that, it worked the way it was supposed to with regard to moving the senior age to 50...just imagine what you would learn if you chose to educate yourself before making a statement that is patently false...

IMO things went haywire when one or more of the "old guard" directors (the guys you advocate for) asked "What-about-me?" They didn't want to compete against 50-54 year olds at the age of 60-64...they wanted their own division...and poof, Silver Senior was born...Of course, Silver Senior was originally intended to be "Super Senior"...but yep, you guessed it, the "old guard" who asked: "What-about-me?" were offended by the name "Super" for some nonsensical ageism related reason...so that had to change too. Silver Senior was a product of a compromise, and the implicit product of directors needing to compromise based on the direction that was provided by a majority of the members they represented to change the Senior age to 50. But "poof" more watering down, and more bowls, and more divisions were created to satisfy them... 

This whole thread is your question of "What-about-me?" You don't want to shoot a full 28...you want to shoot 14. You don't want to shoot against people in your own age group who want to, and can shoot 28. Of course, there is nothing that is preventing you from doing that now...you are free to walk off the course every day after shooting 14. you take 0s for the rest. So, is your issue is obviously your self imposed need to compete...you want an easier opportunity to call yourself a champion because you don't think you can be a champion in your own age group, if you have to shoot against guys who can shoot a full 28 more easily than you can...so the "What-about-me" question you asked, is asked...maybe there ought to be a "Fat-out-of-shape" division in the Adult classes too...I mean it's harder for them to compete and call themselves champions if forced to shoot against folks who are more physically capable...

OK...in your solution...14 targets instead of 28...is that for all Senior, Silver Senior, Master Senior participants? What about the ones that want to and can shoot a full 28? Why make them change for your benefit? Or, do you want new divisions/classifications? You know...Senior, SS and MS that have both 28 and separate 14 target divisions? Hey, let's water it down more and have more champions.

I'm serious...what is your solution? That said, rather than asking "what-about-me"...why don't you talk to your director or collect the polling information from Minnesota members of the NFAA that provide the information of whether your question is even supported by more than a few members, or even a majority...if there is a majority, then I suppose it becomes a discussion of whether the majority of the remainder of the compliant states want the same changes...

Until then...it's simply a "What-about-me" question...


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## Pete53

here In Minnesota there are very few nfaa members and that`s a long nasty story. now what about me?, well I just asked a simple question: 28 targets change to 14 targets for seniors ? you wonder if I can make the 28 targets I can or could but won`t anymore with a good score too. I guess the best way to have a change considered might be easier to go thru Easton archery or just quit and go shoot trap or fish ! to much negative response> so good luck,> I do wonder if that calf kick you to hard ???????


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## Rolo

Pete53 said:


> here In Minnesota there are very few nfaa members and that`s a long nasty story. now what about me?, well I just asked a simple question: 28 targets change to 14 targets for seniors ? you wonder if I can make the 28 targets I can or could but won`t anymore with a good score too. I guess the best way to have a change considered might be easier to go thru Easton archery or just quit and go shoot trap or fish ! to much negative response> so good luck,> I do wonder if that calf kick you to hard ???????


Ah...so what you're sating is that you don't understand facts or accurate history. But, you came up with an idea (it's not an "ideal") that you think would be swell for you, and would make it easier to call yourself a champion. However, you don;t really know if there is any support for your idea, and you don;t want to do anything to promote it, or see if there is support. Someone else should do that...you're the idea guy.

All I asked for was an explanation of what your idea actually was? Whether others supported it? Whether, there was something beyond the obvious implication that it is easier for you to call yourself a champion? (Seriously, is "competing" that big of deal to you that if it doesn't go your way, you'll take your bow and go home?)

And obviously by implication, what it is YOU are willing to do to carry the water of your idea? Answer...not a thing other than complain...

Your response was quite frankly what I expected, and transparent...you'll do nothing because Minnesota's membership is not large, and it is easier to blame imaginary conspiracies and others for not doing anything to see if your idea is a good idea that will be supported by a majority of the membership...and whatever other excuse you can imagine that you believe...of course, those who point out the fallacies of your idea...well they're just negative...

In short...it's your continued pattern of failure or refusal to respond with any substance that ultimately tells the story..."what-about-me"...


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## Arcus

Why do folks who have not shot, and do not shoot, the national/sectional events want to change the rules for those that do?


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## 2413gary

My thoughts exactly


Arcus said:


> Why do folks who have not shot, and do not shoot, the national/sectional events want to change the rules for those that do?


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## Pete53

no changes ever ? just keep it the same always ? sure that`s just the simple solution always ? oh by the way I have shot a sectional 28 field shoot in the past and I did shoot my last state 28 field shoot this summer too. and last is the word ! good luck


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## Arcus

Pete - Be sure to check back in to let us know if the MSAA adopted your suggestion.


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## Pete53

the msaa president has been positive about this subject and so has the field target chair person at least they are going to discuss changing the amount of targets for seniors.as I have said its just a positive suggestion so more seniors continue to shoot archery.


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## Rolo

Holy mother of contradictions...



Pete53 said:


> seniors at 50 is kinda a mistake people are still healthy and for the most part are still working, and that was more of a nfaa business decision to change it to 50 years of age to keep member numbers





Pete53 said:


> no changes ever ? just keep it the same always ? sure that`s just the simple solution always ? oh by the way I have shot a sectional 28 field shoot in the past and I did shoot my last state 28 field shoot this summer too. and last is the word ! good luck


"What about me...What about me?...change is only good when it benefits me...when it doesn't, then it is a mistake...What about me..."


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## field14

Rolo said:


> Holy mother of contradictions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "What about me...What about me?...change is only good when it benefits me...when it doesn't, then it is a mistake...What about me..."


How's about the NFAA was the ONLY archery organization on the planet to have its Senior Division at age 55? How's about STANDARDIZATION in archery for a change?
That includes, IMHO, shaft size, too. The USA is the ONLY country that allows anything larger than a 23XX diameter shaft in competitions. (I believe that the 2315 is the biggest shaft allowed anywhere in competition EXCEPT in the United States).

So, it isn't necessarily the "individual" archer that is "ME, ME, ME"...it is the USA's archery organizations that simply won't go along with the rest of the planet with regard to standardization...but at least for now SENIORS are recognized across the board in the USA at age 50 (even the 3-D organizations did this many years ago; the NFAA the last set of hard heads to change.).


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## Rolo

field14 said:


> How's about the NFAA was the ONLY archery organization on the planet to have its Senior Division at age 55? How's about STANDARDIZATION in archery for a change?
> That includes, IMHO, shaft size, too. The USA is the ONLY country that allows anything larger than a 23XX diameter shaft in competitions. (I believe that the 2315 is the biggest shaft allowed anywhere in competition EXCEPT in the United States).
> 
> So, it isn't necessarily the "individual" archer that is "ME, ME, ME"...it is the USA's archery organizations that simply won't go along with the rest of the planet with regard to standardization...but at least for now SENIORS are recognized across the board in the USA at age 50 (even the 3-D organizations did this many years ago; the NFAA the last set of hard heads to change.).


I'm not exactly sure what your point seems to be. You were a huge proponent of senior at the age of 50. You have complained endlessly about the use of 27 sized arrows in the major U.S. orgs. It really only matters on 2 indoor shoots on a national level and 3-D,we all know where that form of archery ranks on your list. I also don't hear a majority of the membership asking for the change. A vocal minority that doesn't participate maybe. In any event, if the majority wants the change, then it should be changed. Pretty sure I already mentioned the reason for the change of the Senior age, it was Pete that was confused on that. Oh, it was for standardization with the other U.S. orgs, not the rest of the world too...

And yes, the idea presented in this thread was presented by someone who said that he can't compete with others his own age who are capable of shooting a full 28 field/hunter round, and he wants to shoot 14 so he can compete. Yes, it is a "what about me" topic. 

As for the history lesson, thanks, I'm aware of it. Oh the history and your incessant arrow size tangent...unlike the rest of the organizations, the NFAA is governed by its members, bottom up v top down. Changing the arrow size requires the majority as I mentioned above. The majority does not appear to want the change, or care what the rest of the world is doing. (All of this rest of the world BS really only applies to an incredibly small percent of the American archers anyway). Of course we could also talk about other forms of "standardization" too. How about scoring on the 'Vegas' face. The rest of the world likes the small 10, big 9. Are you pushing that too? Talk about a participation killing idea all in the name of standardization. And just imagine your reaction if someone brought a stool to the line...


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## 2413gary

Why is NFAA different ? For 50 plus years excluding fita archery NFAA was the gold standard. All of your styles and classes came from NFAA. Why because there was no one else. IFAA showed up around 1980 and copied NFAA. Then the rest if the world got involved and started to make changes. So don't blame NFAA


field14 said:


> How's about the NFAA was the ONLY archery organization on the planet to have its Senior Division at age 55? How's about STANDARDIZATION in archery for a change?
> That includes, IMHO, shaft size, too. The USA is the ONLY country that allows anything larger than a 23XX diameter shaft in competitions. (I believe that the 2315 is the biggest shaft allowed anywhere in competition EXCEPT in the United States).
> 
> So, it isn't necessarily the "individual" archer that is "ME, ME, ME"...it is the USA's archery organizations that simply won't go along with the rest of the planet with regard to standardization...but at least for now SENIORS are recognized across the board in the USA at age 50 (even the 3-D organizations did this many years ago; the NFAA the last set of hard heads to change.).


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## archer_nm

Good post Gary, we started it all or at least most of it all. Not saying we are perfect just saying


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## ccwilder3

The NAA is the only major U.S. archery organization that has the 23 limit. The NFAA is not the lone ranger. USA archery is.


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## field14

ccwilder3 said:


> The NAA is the only major U.S. archery organization that has the 23 limit. The NFAA is not the lone ranger. USA archery is.


Yep, you are right...but you'd be surprised at the GROWTH of the former NAA (Now USA Archery) with regard to participation when compared to the participation of the NFAA!
In addition, The WFA (Formerly FITA) is the governing body for the World Cup and other WORLD type events, and that size restriction is present for the rest of the planet; once again leaving the United States' organizations the only ones on the planet, IBO< ASA, NFAA> to allow fat shafts over 2315.
Those events overseas are beginning to overshadow the United States events. It wouldn't surprise many that follow archery on a world-wide scale for the NIMES tournament to soon overtake Vegas as the largest indoor shoot on the planet. There are many, many other events world-wide that are drawing increased levels of participation, too.
IF Compounds are ever allowed into the Olympics, the IBO, ASA, and NFAA won't have squat to say about the shaft diameter; it will be a max of 2315, the "World standard" by rule.
In addition, the USA is a drop in the bucket with regard to arrow sales on a world scale too. I can recall back in the mid-1970's and again in the early 1980's, that us shooters in the USA couldn't get 1714, 1716, 1814, 1816, 1914, or 1916 X-7 shafts for almost a year. Why? Because foreign countries had pretty much bought out the inventory of those, the most common arrow spines being used by shooters! What we here in the USA could get were "seconds" that weren't quite as straight or had some flaws in them.
Of course, on the flip side of this is that the sales of anything larger than 2315 max OD isn't happening anywhere but in the United States either. Well, excepting some of those from foreign nations that come to Vegas or go to Lancaster's, that is.
In addition to this, the USA is no longer dominating competitive events either here, nor overseas. The USA Archers win their fair share of events, but are also having to work hard for every victory, too.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

Rolo said:


> I'm not exactly sure what your point seems to be. You were a huge proponent of senior at the age of 50. You have complained endlessly about the use of 27 sized arrows in the major U.S. orgs. It really only matters on 2 indoor shoots on a national level and 3-D,we all know where that form of archery ranks on your list. I also don't hear a majority of the membership asking for the change. A vocal minority that doesn't participate maybe. In any event, if the majority wants the change, then it should be changed. Pretty sure I already mentioned the reason for the change of the Senior age, it was Pete that was confused on that. Oh, it was for standardization with the other U.S. orgs, not the rest of the world too...
> 
> And yes, the idea presented in this thread was presented by someone who said that he can't compete with others his own age who are capable of shooting a full 28 field/hunter round, and he wants to shoot 14 so he can compete. Yes, it is a "what about me" topic.
> 
> As for the history lesson, thanks, I'm aware of it. Oh the history and your incessant arrow size tangent...unlike the rest of the organizations, the NFAA is governed by its members, bottom up v top down. Changing the arrow size requires the majority as I mentioned above. The majority does not appear to want the change, or care what the rest of the world is doing. (All of this rest of the world BS really only applies to an incredibly small percent of the American archers anyway). Of course we could also talk about other forms of "standardization" too. How about scoring on the 'Vegas' face. _The rest of the world likes the small 10, big 9. Are you pushing that too? Talk about a participation killing idea all in the name of standardization. And just imagine your reaction if someone brought a stool to the line..._


Interestingly enough, participation levels overseas on all continents is on the RISE...with the "petit dix" scoring in effect! WHEN our USA Archery competitors and other 'guns' go overseas to events such as Nimes or other events of that WFA organization, the "petit dix" is in effect, and nobody grumbles about it. The GROWTH of archery "over there" is soon going to make those events "over there" overshadow our events here in the USA.
In addition, the growth of USA Archery with regard to participation is well beyond any growth in the NFAA. Compounders simply don't pay attention to the "other" side of the coin and the fact that recurved bow shooting and competitions are growing, and the USA Archery compound side is also showing large growth and interest.
World Cup has become a really big deal for American shooters. They have to qualify for the teams in order to get to go at all. Pan Am games are a big deal, too. Now we also have a spurt of interest in the "Extreme field shooting" that once again occurred in Wales this past weekend, with Jesse Broadwater besting out Tim Gillingham in that event.
Now back to that thing about the big 10 vs the little 10....It has been the case for YEARS at the Iowa Pro-Am to score the baby-x as an "11" and the rest of the inner ring as "10" for a 330 round. It is also the same for the Midwest Open and the KC Shootout, too. They shoot the 360 round (6 points of the X on the Blue face) one day, and the Vegas 330 round the 2nd day. ALL THREE of those events have shown GROWTH...so your idea about that petit 10 causing a loss of participation doesn't hold water, excepting maybe local shoots and even then.....


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## Rolo

field14 said:


> Interestingly enough, participation levels overseas on all continents is on the RISE...with the "petit dix" scoring in effect! WHEN our USA Archery competitors and other 'guns' go overseas to events such as Nimes or other events of that WFA organization, the "petit dix" is in effect, and nobody grumbles about it.


Well, considering that Europe and Asia make up...what...about 5/8 or more of the worlds population, I'd certainly expect participation to be on the rise. It doesn't take much intellect to understand that...nor that the rise is based on the scoring system in play...and yeah...regardless of where a person originates, they have to play by the rules of the game they signed up for...again, not a great leap of intellect...



field14 said:


> The GROWTH of archery "over there" is soon going to make those events "over there" overshadow our events here in the USA.



Of cvourse, the NFAA Foundation's Vegas shoot remains the largest indoor shoot in the world..and it too continues to grow. And then there is Redding and the ASAs...all this from a smaller population base to pull from...we could also discuss the lack of bowhunting opportunities for the peeps to the east as to why the interest in target archery...what with the majority of US folks paying more attention to bowhunting than target archery...I digress. Sure, by sheer numbers, combined with non-endemic sponsorship dollrs, eastern events may "overshadow" events in the US...of course it also may simply be a numbers game...



field14 said:


> In addition, the growth of USA Archery with regard to participation is well beyond any growth in the NFAA. Compounders simply don't pay attention to the "other" side of the coin and the fact that recurved bow shooting and competitions are growing, and the USA Archery compound side is also showing large growth and interest.
> World Cup has become a really big deal for American shooters. They have to qualify for the teams in order to get to go at all. Pan Am games are a big deal, too. Now we also have a spurt of interest in the "Extreme field shooting" that once again occurred in Wales this past weekend, with Jesse Broadwater besting out Tim Gillingham in that event.
> Now back to that thing about the big 10 vs the little 10....


OK, great...of course NFAA participation is also growing, and World Cup involves compounds too, and none of this has anything to do with changing the game for seniors...oh, like it or not, there remains a market for 27 size arrows...if there didn't, they wouldn't be produced...it is OK to be differenttoo...



field14 said:


> It has been the case for YEARS at the Iowa Pro-Am to score the baby-x as an "11" and the rest of the inner ring as "10" for a 330 round. It is also the same for the Midwest Open and the KC Shootout, too. They shoot the 360 round (6 points of the X on the Blue face) one day, and the Vegas 330 round the 2nd day. ALL THREE of those events have shown GROWTH...so your idea about that petit 10 causing a loss of participation doesn't hold water, excepting maybe local shoots and even then.....


I'm sure the same thought went through folks heads back in the 70s when the field face was changed...how'd that work out? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, consistency is a beech ain't it...


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## brtesite

Rolo said:


> Well, considering that Europe and Asia make up...what...about 5/8 or more of the worlds population, I'd certainly expect participation to be on the rise. It doesn't take much intellect to understand that...nor that the rise is based on the scoring system in play...and yeah...regardless of where a person originates, they have to play by the rules of the game they signed up for...again, not a great leap of intellect...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of cvourse, the NFAA Foundation's Vegas shoot remains the largest indoor shoot in the world..and it too continues to grow. And then there is Redding and the ASAs...all this from a smaller population base to pull from...we could also discuss the lack of bowhunting opportunities for the peeps to the east as to why the interest in target archery...what with the majority of US folks paying more attention to bowhunting than target archery...I digress. Sure, by sheer numbers, combined with non-endemic sponsorship dollrs, eastern events may "overshadow" events in the US...of course it also may simply be a numbers game...
> 
> 
> 
> OK, great...of course NFAA participation is also growing, and World Cup involves compounds too, and none of this has anything to do with changing the game for seniors...oh, like it or not, there remains a market for 27 size arrows...if there didn't, they wouldn't be produced...it is OK to be differenttoo...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure the same thought went through folks heads back in the 70s when the field face was changed...how'd that work out? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, consistency is a beech ain't it...



When they changed the face back then, NFAA went from about 35,000 to about 18,000 within 2 years
they went over to 3D


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## Pete53

is it true that at the Vegas archery shoot you are allowed to participate and compete without becoming a nfaa member ? does anyone know how a person can find out how many nfaa members there are now 2015 and for each year for the past 15 years? maybe field 14 or brtesite can help me with these answers they seem to have more honest answers, are open minded and give positive answers toward questions. thank you,Pete53


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## brtesite

Pete53 said:


> is it true that at the Vegas archery shoot you are allowed to participate and compete without becoming a nfaa member ? does anyone know how a person can find out how many nfaa members there are now 2015 and for each year for the past 15 years? maybe field 14 or brtesite can help me with these answers they seem to have more honest answers, are open minded and give positive answers toward questions. thank you,Pete53


You don't need to be an NFAA member to shoot Vegas because it is not an NFAA shoot. You might be able to get the total membership from Headquarters .


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## ccwilder3

Pete53 said:


> is it true that at the Vegas archery shoot you are allowed to participate and compete without becoming a nfaa member ? does anyone know how a person can find out how many nfaa members there are now 2015 and for each year for the past 15 years? maybe field 14 or brtesite can help me with these answers they seem to have more honest answers, are open minded and give positive answers toward questions. thank you,Pete53


I don't know the numbers for this year, but last year the NFAA had over 16000 and the NAA had around 11000. I believe the NFAA has grown every year sine 2010.


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## field14

brtesite said:


> You don't need to be an NFAA member to shoot Vegas because it is not an NFAA shoot. You might be able to get the total membership from Headquarters .


You also don't have to be an NFAA member to shoot any of the Midwest Triple Crown events, Redding, the Dakota Classic. I also think you don't have to be a member of the NFAA to shoot Lancaster's either.
They use NFAA shooting style rules and some other things as a guideline, however.
Also, for CHAMPIONSHIP divisions, you don't have to be a card carrying NFAA, ASA, or IBO PRO either. Ante up and shoot with/against the big boys.


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## Pete53

so what I read on some of the last posts the reason the nfaa pulls so many archers to most of these shoots like Vegas is partly because the archer does not need to be a member of the nfaa , thanks for posting.Pete53


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