# Reo lean back At full draw



## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I see a lot of pros shooting with a lean back at full draw does this help them hold more still has any one tried it and likes it thanks for info .


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

GRIV's take on this is that at some point you have to start leaning back to support the weight on the front bar as the weight goes up. The trend right now is running a lot of weight on your stabilizers so the leaning back slightly is helping shift your center of gravity and in turn help you support the weight of the bow. 

If you're shooting a lot, pretty much daily, then you'll start building up the muscle mass to help support more and more weight on your stabilizers and you'll find that at some point you'll need to lean back or you'll not be able to support the weight. However, if you can't shoot enough arrows to keep the muscles being used in shape and strong, then you're better off with a lesser amount of weight. 

Keep in mind too, it seems that most of the shooters leaning back are more single distance shooters. I haven't noticed it as much with multi distance shooters, like field shooting, where you need to be a little more mobile and have less influence from the bow when aiming up or down hill.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Look at virtually every single person who has just started archery. The vast majority lean back, even with light poundage and correct draw. They/we do this for a reason and that reason is because it feels natural. Then we try to change and manipulate people's form and have you noticed how difficult that is to do. I'm learning now that unless someone truly has so called "bad form" I tend to leave them alone and most of the time they shoot better then when I used to try and manipulate them into the so called "classic form" if they lean back a little it doesn't worry me. Best to concentrate on their brain in the early stages of learning then harass them with form. 
Flame away.


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## nswarcher (Apr 16, 2015)

Reos lean is very unique and works for him but some of his ideas are out there,
The lean is a natural counterbalance of holding a weight out, just like when you put your arm out when carrying something in the other,
Learn to shoot without a lean first, it will help develop proper alignment. As you become stronger archer and can diagnose your own issues you will settle into your form


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

What is "proper alignment"? And why do some of the worlds best not seem to worry about it? How is it that trying to make someone conform to a rather rigid criteria, when a lot of the best don't, make a better shooter. With comfort comes consistency and to me this outweighs a need to conform. I'm finding the less a beginner has to think about the better. I've endlessly watched people struggle to conform. Concentrate on the shooters brain before their body.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

The problem with comfort is that sometimes it's not anywhere close to being best for an archer. It can lead to injury, or at the very least, improper shooting and making things harder on an archer than it needs to be. 

Take USA Archery and NASP. They have certain guidelines to follow for an archer to go by that's proven to be repeatable and not lead to injury. 

This isn't to say that there are some areas that can be adapted for a shooter. But there needs to be platforms for an archer to go by as they're learning to guide them to finding their own form.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

I 100% agree with RCR's first answer and both of Duc's answers. I'm a big fan of comfort, not every person can shoot with "perfect form" and not everyone can or wants to be a world champion so most of the time allowing a shooter to find his or her way will result in more enjoyable practice and therefore better shooting.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Hello Robert. The middle of my paragraph I said that you need to change some who has very bad form. Form that can lead to injury and inconsistent shooting. A little lean back, bent or straight elbow, even a little bit of a fist on the grip doesn't faze me as long as there is repeatability there I don't want to changed them to much. Green beginners are great to work with. People who who have shot more then a thousand arrows have begun to ingrain their bad habits. These people for the most part are the most difficult to deal with. And so are the endless tuners who tinker and piss around with the bow and read how's my form threads.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

thawk said:


> I 100% agree with RCR's first answer and both of Duc's answers. I'm a big fan of comfort, not every person can shoot with "perfect form" and not everyone can or wants to be a world champion so most of the time allowing a shooter to find his or her way will result in more enjoyable practice and therefore better shooting.


I'm in agreement also. The key thing for me is to above all shoot as much as I can. If there's a problem with the way I'm doing something, the more I shoot, the quicker the problem becomes apparent. Hopefully, though, I'm starting off with a form that's good enough to prevent injury in that process of course. 

I have found that I prefer to shoot closer to a "T" form with less mass weight on the bow. If I find that taking weight off, or just slap taking the stab completely off the bow and I shoot better.... then that's my clue that I'm shooting too much weight . Or that I'm really out of shape, as is the case right now because my practice pace dropped off significantly after my last tournament in March for various life reasons. 

But that's just me, a lean doesn't agree with me but that only means something for me and my particular physical condition.

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> Take USA Archery and NASP. They have certain guidelines to follow for an archer to go by that's proven to be repeatable and not lead to injury.


I'll leave NASP alone...

But for the US Archery side I still feel like they're trying to make the compound side conform to the recurve styles. Just like NAA always did. Aren't most archery injuries a result of overuse and not improper form?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

redman said:


> I see a lot of pros shooting with a lean back at full draw does this help them hold more still has any one tried it and likes it thanks for info .


Watch the evolution of Stephan Hansen's lean over the last few years. The more weight he throws on the bow, the more lean he ends up with.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> I'll leave NASP alone...
> 
> But for the US Archery side I still feel like they're trying to make the compound side conform to the recurve styles. Just like NAA always did. Aren't most archery injuries a result of overuse and not improper form?


I think that's just generally what you have when you pay more attention to what other people do and try to imitate them, rather than go out to the range and actually shoot, and find the equipment and style that works the best for you. That's partly why you see all those Podium X's on the lines, even though a lot of those shooters are totally struggling and it's pretty clear it's not really the most optimal bow for them, including having 20lbs of weight on the stabs. I saw that in multiple cases at indoor nationals this year, little guys and gals with these gigantic bows with tons of weight on them. They were leaning too. 

But to tell the truth, I think the influence of recurve is actually less than it was say 20 years ago. I won't speak to NTS adaptation to compound since I'm not familiar with it, but overall the compound is starting to develop its own tradition and "best practices". Yeah there are the guys who say you can't win unless you shoot a thumb trigger and a Prevail, but in general compound is kind of all over the map. So I think the influence of recurve is waning, actually.

lee.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Bobmuley said:


> I'll leave NASP alone...
> 
> But for the US Archery side I still feel like they're trying to make the compound side conform to the recurve styles. Just like NAA always did. Aren't most archery injuries a result of overuse and not improper form?


Good points. From what I can see after being away since the NAA days, not much has changed.

The priorities are clearly different for compound and recurve archery. Shooting a compound is much more about precise aiming and minimizing the movement at the pin. Recurve is more about managing the greater holding weight and a clean release. I believe it is a very big mistake to expect the same form in both. The basic principles of physics are the same in both but they need to be applied differently and with different priority.

Almost all archery injury is overuse. Better form can minimize it, but it is not a complete solution for everyone. Individual differences need to be considered but if you start with leveraging the system to support the draw most efficiently you can usually minimize injury. I shot for over 20 years with what many considered to be decent form, but had lots of tendonitis in my shoulders. Some slight changes in relearning how to shoot after another 20 years away from the sport have made all the difference. But I am shooting a recurve because it is what I like to do. If I had gone to a compound the issues would not have been as great, and there would be some differences in what I could get away with.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Seems that some of the stand out top end shooters have lots of weight, but most are pretty good size critters and strong. Friend of mine tried to mimic Danny Evans and had some weight pushing his bow over 10 pounds, more like 13 pounds. Now, my friend and Danny Evans traveled together for a couple years. Anyway, it took about 1 season of 3D to know he was hurting and my friend is pretty big bruiser, like football player big. Next I knew he lowered his bow weight to less than mine, around 7 1/4 pounds.

My newest bow is string twisted to give 28 1/2" with 28.0" modules and maintain 55 pounds. Long story, so won't get into it. It holds different, tries to take off if I don't watch it and dual limb stops makes for more "fun." I kept adding weight until it's holding pretty good. Normally my target bows run about 7 1/2 pounds. This one weighs in at 7 pounds, 14 ounces. New bow, okay. How it went in adding; 30" front with 2 ounces and 12 back bar with 5 ounces. 3 ounces on front, 7 on the back. 4 ounces on front, 10 ounces on the back. And finally; 5 on the front and 12 on the back. And I had been shooting all day. Bow; 55 pounds draw. Me; 68 years old. And I feel pretty good though a bit tired. I will go at it again tomorrow to see things go.

I know I'm leaning back, but it doesn't seem drastic. If fact, bad back that I have my back feels pretty good. There are times my back tightens up so much it hurts to walk.


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## Delta7 (Dec 17, 2015)

I saw a video on Youtube where Reo explained about his "leaning back".
Apparently mostly because of the weight of the set up & CG issue.


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## 12point_typical (Feb 3, 2016)

So lean back as weight gets higher?


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

12point_typical said:


> So lean back as weight gets higher?


Try not leaning back with a heap of weight on your bow. See what happens. Keep putting weight on and not leaning back. 
Eventually, you may come to the conclusion that you probably didn't need to ask this advice of others.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

whiz-Oz said:


> Try not leaning back with a heap of weight on your bow. See what happens. Keep putting weight on and not leaning back.
> Eventually, you may come to the conclusion that you probably didn't need to ask this advice of others.


Yep, it can be done. Until you're standing pretty much on only the one leg.... You might still be able to keep a "T" form, but how well you can actually shoot on one leg and for how long is another story.... 

lee.


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## DeerTrax (Jun 13, 2017)

Leaning back is not proper form. 
Many pros started long ago and have "perfected" imperfect forms. Than of source there's the weight issue. That too hurts. 
Now bear in mind many do start out with a bow too long. It's because uncle Joe, cuz Tom, showed them. Not an archery instructor. 
It's the reason guys I teach with and I go to string bows so much. It adds value to form which leads to less problems down the road.


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

I think perfect form is a myth, or at best, a lofty goal. How is it possible to have the same form for a shooter running 12 oz of weight and one running 36 oz of weight? I don't believe it is possible. 

The trend I see coming into view is that there is a definite way to do it that is more consistent, and a way that isn't; but that way not be the same for any two people. As a coach I want to teach my students to be as consistent and safe as possible, but that doesn't mean they are all exactly the same in form. Each person is different and I have to adjust their form so they will not injure themselves and be as consistent as possible. 

That means many of the form aspects are the same, but not all. 

Reo himself said it best, "This is the way I shoot, and I hope you find your way." (paraphrasing)

I would never try to emulate another shooter's form "flaws" (IOW, try to teach my students to lean back like Reo), but at the same time I understand that not every shooter is going to have text book form.


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## DeerTrax (Jun 13, 2017)

Ok form imo is not a myth. It's why we teach, most people don't know what they don't know and are taught by uncle Joe, cuz Tom, etc. 
he's not an archery instructor. I'm our classes the students all learn form. 
Yes some weight causes leaning but claiming poor form is normal is imo incorrect. 
This is just me though. I'm certainly not on Reos level but I don't aspire to be either. 
Bad form if repeated consistently can make an arrow go in the same place but remember it's easier to make things consistant w good form. 
Stepping on no ones toes here. Jmo


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

As soon as someone starts discussing "form" people start drawing some rather odd conclusions because they keep putting totally independent concepts together. 

Form:
Form is the alignment and position of the body when shooting a bow. 

Perfect form:
Perfect form is demonstrated by a group of arrows in a target. It is a demonstration of the repeatability of the alignment and position of the body when shooting a bow. 

Biomechanically Efficient form. 
A biomechanically efficient form is the arrangement of the body to support the stresses of the bow and shooting process with the least physical effort. This is adopted as good practice. It is by no means essential, but it sure helps.

Reo might not have a biomechanically efficient form, however he's also training as a professional athlete. His results indicate that he's closer to being able to repeat that sub optimum form, so it's closer to being perfect than other people with a more biomechanically efficient form, who can't reproduce it. 

Perfect form is indicated by results. Not what someone looks like. 

If someone could stand on one leg, hold the bow with their foot, lean out horizontally and look down their nose while releasing the arrow with one finger with 100 percent repeatable form, you would call them "World Champion"

They just wouldn't have a biomechanically efficient form.

That chick that does the handstand and shoots the bow with her feet is the epitome of someone actually shooting a bow with incredibly sub optimum form. That she can reliably hit anything at all proves that she has a certain level of *repeatable* form.

It's not likely to win her any medals at the World Cup, but that's not actually her target audience.


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

whiz-Oz said:


> As soon as someone starts discussing "form" people start drawing some rather odd conclusions because they keep putting totally independent concepts together.
> 
> Form:
> Form is the alignment and position of the body when shooting a bow.
> ...


 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

whiz-Oz said:


> As soon as someone starts discussing "form" people start drawing some rather odd conclusions because they keep putting totally independent concepts together.
> 
> Form:
> Form is the alignment and position of the body when shooting a bow.
> ...


Well stated.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Seriously, they called it this? What idiocy.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

If the label fits!


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

>--gt--> said:


> Seriously, they called it this? What idiocy.


That's GOLD!

I still have to get those shooting shirts made up for the Compound Unlimited National Target Series.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

whiz-Oz said:


> That's GOLD!
> 
> I still have to get those shooting shirts made up for the Compound Unlimited National Target Series.


I'll buy and ship one!


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Leaning back helps me with back pain that is why I do it . If I feel better I will shot better .


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## Scottspot50 (Nov 21, 2017)

If you look a precision rifle shooters using really heavy barrels you will notice that they put the front hip foreword and lean the top of the body back to to counterbalance. There are a lot of other things going on here reguarding hip position, center of balance, position of front arm, pressure on shoulder etc. is leaning back bad? Probably yes if you’re trying to pull to much weight. If it’s to counter balance a heavy weight out front then no. At that point you’re just trying to put the weight through your center of gravity. I haven’t looked at Reo’s form but I’d guess his leading hip is foreword to counterbalance the weight.


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