# Magnock/Turbonock you guys need to hook up.



## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Title says it all. I'd love to see a MagTurboNock


----------



## Tafkas (May 22, 2002)

How about Magneto Nocks?


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

This idea keeps popping up. It sounds like a neat idea, but in reality The TURBO and the Magnock are two totally different approaches to arrow flight.
If you want to shoot conventional fletch , the Magnock is probably the cleanest release nock there is.

The Turbo takes the exact opposite approach to arrow release and is the "dirtiest release of any arrow ever shot"

Every arrow ever made had or has a straight throat in the nock to allow the arrow to clear with as little distrubance as possible.
Then the feathers or vanes after traveling through the air start the arrow spinning to stabilize it. The average conventional fletch arrow spins 2 times in 20 yds .

The TURBO with the patented twisted nock spins the arrow right at the bowstring( 2 times in the first five feet of flight)
Bullets are stabilize in much the same way , and they fly just fine with no vanes at all. We actually shot a TURBO with the vanes clipped off at the Atlantic City World Archery Festival last year 
at 40yds and it grouped with the TURBOS with vanes. YES!
bare shaft TURBO at 40yds. 
I get almost 8000rpms from my 3dbow at the string.

As a result of the instant spin the turbo can fly with about 80%
less vane than a conventional arrow. The Turbo's vanes only have to keep the arrow spinning , not make it spin.

There is just no benefit to rigging up a magnet and a tie on reciever to the TURBO , which works just fine off a conventional
nocking setup.

It is difficult enough to get archers to try the TURBO even though I designed it to simplify things. No more fletching and no more tuning hunting tips. as long as you use a fall away or a whisker.

If you had to by turbos and then also rig up a special reciever on your string to shoot them, it would be even more difficult to sell.
I would rather do things as simply as possible, especially when there is no benefit to making the process more complex.


----------



## Jim G (Apr 8, 2003)

*Not as hard as it sounds*

Nick, 
I hope you didn't mean Magnocks are not beneficial when you wrote: "especially when there is no benefit to making the process more complex" 

It's not that hard to do, and since Pro1 already has the receiver, it is easy to cut the Turbo behind the wings, drill a .248" hole and stick the magnock in it. I'm gonna test mine tonight.

Jim G.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

IF YOU DO THAT YOU TAKE AWAY 99% OF THE BENEFIT OF THE TURBO NOCK.

What makes the TURBO work is that the nock is twisted!!!!
It twists on your bowstring and is mechanically spun off the string.

This is like rifling in a bullet.
If you cut the nock part off you will not get that mechanical effect

Magnocks are certainly beneficial to conventional fletching.
I have said this many times.

The TURBO is a totally new way of flying arrows and what you are going to do takes away from what the turbo does.
If you shoot those little vanes without giving them the initial boost from the twisted nock , in all likely hood they will not work very well..

I could certainly rig up a magnetic turbonock, but it would be more complicated and more expensive. 
The TURBO works fine and is simple! Why should I make it more complicated and expensive????


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

JIM!
If you want to try a really meaningful and simple experiment tonight, instead of cutting the nock part off the TURBO, cut the vanes off!! then you will see the benefits of the twisted nock.
It is such a simple concept most folks tend to over look the twist in the nock.

Bullets are way more accurate than arrows!! They have no vanes or feathers, just a rifled barrel to instantly spin them.
That is what the TURBO NOCK does.
Since the TURBO spins right at the bowstring I am able to reduce the vane necessary to stabilize it by 90%.
If you eliminate that mechanical spin, how are you going to get the turbo up to speed,unless you make the reciever in the magnock have a twist in it that corresponds to something on the nock that will impart an instant spin.
The Magnock as it exists does not perform this function.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

If you want to do a comparison, take one of your magnock arrows and strip the vanes. shoot it with just the magnock
then shoot the TURBO without its vanes.

We shot the TURBO last year at Atlantic city at 40yds, no vanes,
just using the rifling power of the twisted nock, and it grouped with the vaned TURBO NOCKS.


----------



## Jim G (Apr 8, 2003)

Nick,
Thanks for the info. I can't wait to try some of these things you mentioned. You are correct to assume that I didn't grasp the importance of the twisted nock imparting spin, I thought it was used to allow the arrow to spin, not give it additional spin.

FWIW I took the tab off the magnock so the arrow will spin in the receiver.

Jim G,


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Even with the tab off on the Magnock It can not spin until it has traveled through the atmosphere. The average fletched arrow leaves the bow at 0 rpm and makes about 2full revolutions in 20yds.
the TURBO leaves my Merlin 290fps at about 7800rpm and makes about 24 revolutions in 20yds.


----------



## Legolas (Aug 9, 2002)

Nick,

just a suggestion here: How about if you constructed a bushing into your torbos that can take either conventional G-nocks, the Magnocks or any other nock-system? 
Would that be possible and would it make sense to you?

The adventage: once you break a nock it can simply be exchanged............. And perhaps the arrow would even start spinning if it came off straight off the string, other than you described?


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

The TURBO as it exists fits about 99% of all arrows out there.
The deadx and the hunter fit easton unibushing aluminum shafts and most brand name carbons
The HTX fits the G-nock . 
If you break a TURBO you can pull it out and put in another one.
Again. I tried to make this system easy to do. Instead of fletching arrows and refletching and havig a fletching jig, or going to a pro shop all you have to do is change the Nock and you get the fletching also. 
Again The Magnock is just a nock, that requires fletching. 
It approaches arrow stability with a clean release , whic you need to get fletched arrows to fly well.
The TUrbo is not designed for conventional fletched arrows.
It does not require any additional fletching.
It is simple and it works. I can not see any benefit to making it more complicated.


----------



## Harald (Sep 12, 2003)

Seems to me like a twisted nock (to get the rotation going)
sets even bigger demands for consistence in the force the nock needs to be slipping the string with. Wouldn't it then be an advantage with something like the Beiter Nocking-point attached to your string?


----------



## Harald (Sep 12, 2003)

What about the Turbo fitting an instick pin like the 
Magnok MAGNUM TI-PIN
should cover most actual arrows except maybe the Easton x10

(Just trying to make you guys satisfied which are desperate to
mix Magnock and Turbo)


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Again the Magnock and the TURBO NOCk are too totally different approaches to arrow stability. they do the exact opposite function to an arrow and are quite incompatible.
All arrow stability systems through the history of archery have used only wind resistance to stabilize an arrow. 

The TURBO uses instant mechanical stabilization much like rifling in a gun barrel . 
Bullets were not very accurate 200 years ago because they did not spin. when rifling was accidentally added to a barrel and bullets were spun mechanically they became extremely accurate.
Bullets have no vanes or feathers.
The TURBO because it is also spun mechanically can fly with extremely less vanes because all the vane has to do is keep the arrow spinning, not make it spin like a conventional arrow.
The TURBO is the only arrow that uses this principle of rifling to stabilize arrows.


----------



## Harald (Sep 12, 2003)

I meant the turbo thing hooked up behind the magnum titan pin thing and off course letting the turbo keep its own unique twisting nock. Using the titan pin just as a mean to attach the turbo to the different arrows.  

PS Looked like beautiful grouping at 100 yds.
Hope I will be able to group like that some day!


----------



## BowD (Jan 20, 2003)

Why not make a twisted nock without the plastic vanes? Wouldn't a conventional helical fletched arrow (with shorty vanes)continue the spin the same way that your plactic ones do? Then, shooters with shoot through rests could shoot them too. They would have to "time" the nock rotation so that the vanes were in proper orientation when passing over the rest, but I dont see why it wouldn't work.
Heck, I would even try them.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

There is a lot more going on aerodynamically with this product than meets the eye. The relationship of the pitch of the vanes and their size to the pitch in the nock is critical. 
If I were to make a twisted nock and let archers try to fletch vanes that would work with the turbo , I probably would go out of business insstantly. 
Lets say 10% tried and did not do it correctly. They would be the ones who would post and say the turbo did not work. there would be no way to challenge them and determine if it was there fletching process . 

It took me three months of testing to get the ratios of vane and pitch of vane and pitch of nock to work where the fina


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

There is a lot more going on aerodynamically with this product than meets the eye. The relationship of the pitch of the vanes and their size to the pitch in the nock is critical. 
If I were to make a twisted nock and let archers try to fletch vanes that would work with the turbo , I probably would go out of business insstantly. 
Lets say 10% tried and did not do it correctly. They would be the ones who would post and say the turbo did not work. there would be no way to challenge them and determine if it was there fletching process . 

It took me three months of testing to get the ratios of vane and pitch of vane and pitch of nock to work where the final product is capable of shooting 2-1/2 groups at 80 yds and recently a 4-1/2 by 2-3/4 inch group was shot at 100 yds.

I figure for about $ 100,000 I could get into production with a vaneless turbo to let you fletch. and possibly get to work.
Right now We have one that works fine. and for the price of a fall away rest or a Whisker Biscuit or a GKF funnel you can use the turbo , and never have to fletch arrows again.

Forty years ago When Jennings and Bear got the compound going . very few people asked for kits to change their old recurves into compounds. A retrofit kit could have been designed that would have worked. But it would have caused nightmares.

I know it is hard to give up your old launcher rest, but even without my TURBO , A fallawayl makes such an improvement,
I can see no value in backengineering my product to work with archery products such as launcher rests , that are technologically 
inferior to the Fall away rests. 
Last year at the Am(ATA) show there were so many new fall aways on the market it made your head spin. WHY???
If you are a rest manufacturer and not making these you will probably be out of business in a few short years.

If you had the choice to fly in an old propellor passenger plane or a modern jet passenger plane , I am guessing you would take the Jet. It is technologically superior and gets you where you want to go faster and safer.

The TURBO with the principle of rifling incorporated into arrow flight. Is a technological change. I just can not see eliminating some of its benefits so that some folks will be able to shoot it with older eqipment. 
Why not take a step into modern archery, You are probably already using a compound. Fallaway rests are quite reliable and
really make a difference, with or without my TURBO.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

One more argument .
I can remember going to the Pa Bowfestival many years ago and seeing some shooters try to shoot wood arrows from compound bows. Several ended up in the hospital with major pieces of wood in their arms. lesson learned if you wanted the benefits of the new compound bows , you had to give up wood arrows.
No company in their right mind was goind to design a less powerful compound to shoot wood arrows.

If you want to shoot TURBO NOCKs you need a fall away or a whisker biscuit , or a gkf funnel rest.
For me to back engineer the design just does not make sense.

If only 1% of the archers go to fallaways , and start shooting TURBOS , I will be happy.


----------



## BowD (Jan 20, 2003)

Nick,
Thanks for the thoughtfull explanation. It makes sense. I might actually end up trying them yet!


----------



## Jim G (Apr 8, 2003)

*Hey Nick*

Hopefully you haven't given up on me completely, I understand your wisdom has built a great product. Enough from me about that. What I wanted to say was last night the urge hit me. I had purchased a dozen Turbonocks when they came out a few years ago and tried them on a trapdoor rest. The rest was not dropping quick enough so I put them aside and picked up the Magnock. I have shot the magnocks for two years and really like them... but curiosity got the best of me.... I became sick of the trapdoor1, the trapdoor LR , the Ultimate Fallaway, and settled on the Mathews Microrest with 1"OD and drop kit. Shooting the magnocks into little bitty spots at 40 yards was very possible, but dang it, that noise, just enough to make me nervous, and the talk of speed loss, well I had to find out. So, I cut the receiver off my Legacy and cut the vanes off the CarbonAeros and put on the Turbonock, pulled and held my best squeezee (nice) and whammo 4" high, "no way!!?!???!" once again -squeeeeeze- (nice) "CRACK" *** same spot, broken vane 4" high at 40 yds. No tuning, no centershot just took the magnock off and put the turbo on. Shooting 40 yds, 4 arrow ends, I broke 4 Turbonock vanes from grouping tight. I ordered my second dozen this morning. Magnocks will go on my indoor bow, Turbos for the rest.

Magnocks were flying 273fps, what kind of speed increase does it take to gain 4" at 40 yards?

As far as weight goes, Magnocks with 4" duravanes, 75gr tips=345gr
Turbos:349gr.

Jim G.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Thanks for the test shooting Jim G.
Many shooters consider only weight into their equation when they figure out trajectory. Wind resistance or the lack of it also plays a part as you shooting demonstrates.

A slightly heavier TURBO setup still can achieve flatter trajectory as a result of less wind resistance during flight.
It is not so much the speed increase , but TURBOS lose speed at a slower rate than a conventional fletch. so the average time to the target is less an trajectory is flatter. probably out around 70 or 80 yds the magnock may actually fly a little flatter , I have not tested that for sure and could be wrong.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh? why not shoot TURBOS indoors???????

Would you mind posting this on the general archey section.
If I do it they will think I am braggin again.


----------



## RADRB8 (Oct 4, 2003)

I understand the theory of the RPM's in the accuracy dept but, the concern I have deals with the loss of KE once the arrow impacts the animal. Due to the amount of TWISTING/ SPINNING it has to have a negative effect when it comes to penetration doesn't it? If not please explain this in a bit more detail. 
Thanks in advance 

Andy


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

I am not good at engineering explanations, but we can find no negative effect on penetration. The TURBOS are now in their second season and so far no animal that has been killed by the TURBO has complained. To me that is pretty hard scientific data.
Most kills have been pass throughs. sometimes the nock stays on sometimes the nock pops off. But the kill is made.

NOISE 
Sometimes when you shoot the Hunter indoors ,depending on your setup and the acoustics of the room you can hear a whirring sound as they fly.
Outdoors I have stood (safely) near a target and had broadheads shot from 20yds with conventional feathers, and vanes and TURBOS. I could hear the conventional arrows leave the bow and whoosh the entire distance to the target. I could not hear the TURBO. 
We have yet to have any reports of animals ducking TURBOS.
or surviving a hit.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Here are some more in case you missed them in other posts.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

This is a freeze frame from a video shot by Jamie Creek.
17yds from a tree stand. Steel force two blade and the Hunter.
If you look closely you can see she is already TURBOED.
She never knew what hit her.


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

and one more!!

This is the Monster Blacktail shot by Donnie Clinton.
at 47 paces with the Hunter.

The deer never knew what hit it.
My theory on the sound is that even in some circumstances we humans can hear the Hunter flying.
The sound emitted is a totally different frequency than that made by conventional fletch that makes that familiar whooshhhh.
So far animals do not seem to notice the Hunter coming.
Most of us have experienced what a noisy bow or arrow can do to a deer, especially a smart old buck.
I would bet that black tail was a smart old buck or else he was on steroids. whatever He did not have a chance.


----------



## Jim G (Apr 8, 2003)

*Nick, one more question*

This one has to do with speed of the Turbos Dead X compared to straight fletched arrows. 

Background...some of my friends shoot mechanicals with straight fletched arrows. THey don't shoot well but are convinced that at 20 yards they can still group "minute of deer" and yes, they can.

I showed them the Turbos and were convinced that they will make their arrows slower. Will it? ( my arrows are 4gr heavier with turbos)

What is the benefit for someone shooting 20 yards at a deer?

Thanks,
Jim G,


----------



## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

Question I have is regards to the broadhead cutting. They cut with the front edge and the penetration will be greater if the rest of the blade would follow the cut. I f turbos spin so fast wouldn't that make a greater side pressure on the blades as they spin into the animal? Just a thought, creating more friction and slowing down the arrow and in effect ****** some of the energy?


----------



## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Jim and madarchery .

I hope this will answer both your concerns.

As you can see from the above photos in the real world the TURBOS do their job. 
The TURBO in not just another gimmick . It is new technology . This is the first arrow ever to use the principal of rifling for arrows.
Mechanical stabilzation just like bullets. All other arrows use only wind resistance.
With most conventional fletch setups a heavier arrow will fly slower. Because of the extra weight the arrows leaves the bow slower. Since most arrows have about the same square inch displacement of their vanes or feathers. No one takes into account the initial wind resistance and that the wind resistance on the vanes is greatest at the instant the arrow leaves the bow.
A conventional hunting arrow with three 4 or 5 inch vanes uses about 5 to 7 square inches of vane to stabilize a broadhead.
The TURBO NOCK DEADX with .8 sq inch of vane can stabilize a mechanical, and the HUNTER with 1.6 sq inch of vane can stabilize a fixed blade.
There is so much less wind resistance at the beginning of the arrows flight , that even though the TURBOS may weigh 5 to 10 grains more than the conventional arrow. What they gain in reduced wind resistance allows them to leave the bow faster.
The only reason the TURBO works and is able to fly with such smaller vanes is that the Nock is twisted. This twisted nock makes the arrow spin immediately. (like a bullet) Since the arrow is already spinning , the TURBO can fly with considerably less vane than a conventional arrow , which needs all that vane and drag just to get the arrow to spin.
Most agree that the faster an object spins the more stable it is.
A conventional hunting arrow spins the broadhead about 2 times in 20 yds. The TURBO does the same job in the first five feet !!!

Penetration.
Actually a conventional vane when passing through material such as flesh has more drag on it than the little solid TURBO.
This is simple physics. 6square inches of material whether it is soft or hard passing throuh the air or water or flesh will have more drag than .8square inch of material.

The smaller an object is the less resistance.

This is why the TURBO works.

This is also why it works so well with the Whisker Biscuit,(if you take the time to tune the TURBO )
A simple demo or experiment you can do that I do at sport shows it to get a whisker biscuit. Pull a conventional fletch arrow through it and you will feel the drag. If you hold the whisker so that you can drop the arrow through it , a conventional arrow has so much drag that the vanes will stop the arrow in the biscuits burshes. (These brushes cause wear on vanes)
If you pull a TURBO through the whisker biscuit it is considerably easier. (smaller less drag)
If you drop an arrow with a TURBO through a Whisker It will not stop . (Smaller less drag) 
If you hit and animal with the TURBO and do not hit bone , you get a pass through.
If you hit bone and the nock pops off , It will be in all likelyhood be
laying where the blood trail starts. and the arrow will still pass through with or without the nock attached. either way as the photos show the animal does not survive.

When I first posted about the TURBO on the Easton site two years ago( I did not know about other sites) 
Few people understood that the reason the TURBO works was the twist in the nock. I got razzed a lot for starting a hoax
Many said vanes that small could not stabilize an arrow.
In a way they were right. but they did not understand that the twist that gave the arrow its initial spin provided an added benefit . Because the arrow is already spinning YOU do not need as much vane as a conventional arrow! All you need is enough vane to keep is spinning.
If you have ever seen Cruise Missle fired from a ship. you would have noticed that they use a rocket booster the get the missle up to speed. The wings on a cruise missle are too small to fly slowly and need that boost to make them work. and once at speed they fly quite well.
The twist in the TURBO is like a booster rocket. It gets the arrow spinng at crusing speed then the TURBO with its small vanes only has to keep it spinning.
Other benefits . a smaller object is less affected by cross winds.
If you look on this site or our website you will see a 4inch group shot at 100 yds by and amature college student ,Dustin Youkum.
Noise!! Turbos are smaller and make less noise than conventional 
arrows. In certain conditions you can hear the Hunter make a slight whirring sound. 
In our second season of hunting , game does not seem to notice this sound or be bothered by it. I have had no reports of animals ducking the TURBO. Again look at the photos above . All clean kills.
with a product that looks like it should not work.
When I claim that the TURBO is new TECHNOLOGY I am not trying to produce Hype or brag. It is an observation from looking at recent archery history.
The compound is a mechanical advantage over the recurve. and look what it has done to the sport! The Fall away rest makes a $200 bow shoot like a $1000 bow. The Fall Away is a mechanical advantage and look what it is doing the the Archery industry.
Virtually every rest company has at least one fallaway in production. why. If they do not they will in all likely hood go the way of the recurve.
The TURBO is the first system to ever stabilize an arrow mechanically. ( no one fletches bullets anymore) 

There will be a lot of resistance to this product from certain factions of the Archery industry . Common sense - A product that eliminates fletching totally will not be welcomed by companies that manufacture and fletch arrows. This will render their products and manufacturing equipment obselete!
Shops that charge $2.50 to$4.00 to fletch your arrows are also very resistant to endorse or carry this product. 
You can spend up to $48 a dozen to have your used arrows fletched. and now you can do it yourself for $20 a dozen . with no fletching tools or skill . j
I grew up making arrows in my dad shop. I hated fletching.
It was boring and cut into my shooting time.
If I can fletch a dozen arrows in less than 2 minutes instead of sitting around and messing with clamps and glue for 30 to 60 minutes to fletch a dozen arrows, and I figure what my leisure time is worth to me. I would rather spend my spare time shooting ,not fletching.
Whew!!!! I got carried away again. This is probably more than you wanted to know! 
I guess I am a little obsessed with this project!!!


----------



## daveligity (Nov 12, 2009)

Their is a a fletching replacement similar to the turbo nock, Called the FOB (Fletching only Better) they reduce wind-age by 70 percent far less drop the FOB actualy adds a new dimension to arrow flight, Lift thus less drop they pop off on a pass thru shot and u use that to mark the beginning of your blood trail. pop it back on and its refletched the sell for 19.95 a dozen and come in many colors i use the hunter orange ones and they are bright enough to see in flight kinda like a tracer follow this link and check them out 
http://http://www.starrflight.com/


----------

