# Have to get this off my chest



## livly78 (Mar 15, 2017)

I shoot 3D with my dad and my two daughters every weekend. Every weekend i see the same group of people who I refrain from yelling at because of my two young daughters. These people are the ones who, while waiting for the group in front of them, are all looking through their binoculars at the same old Rhinehart or deta Mckenzie deer that you will see multiple times during the course of a shoot. After the group ahead finishes guy one steps up to the stake, knocks and arrow, gets out his binoculars and looks at the target again. Mean while his buddies are all looking through their binoculars. Guy one shoots, gets out his binoculars stares at the target while his buddies do the same. Guy one steps back and guy two goes through the same ritual. This continues through the entire group. I cant possibly understand why you would need to look at the target multiple times. the arrow will be down there and you can look at it up close at the end. I understand enjoying your time in the woods but when you are causing a large back up of other shooters. now they have to wait for the two groups in front of them to shoot. I would love to see clubs also ban binoculars.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Will not happen.


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## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

lmao.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

What...they didn't range it first then step up with high power binos to pinpoint the 10 ring?
The nerve....


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

Simply ask them to shoot through. If we have groups or individuals come up behind us, we ask them if they want to go ahead.


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## Live4hunting (Dec 6, 2004)

Its just common courtesy, like you we shoot in a group myself and my 2 older boys shoot the comp peg, then move up so my girlfriend and my little one can shoot the hunter. Frequently we ask people behind us if they want to shoot through cause we don't want to hold people up. Now Im not saying that we don't use range finders or binoculars. First person up ranges it for everyone at that peg and binos their spot and shoots while the others do the same and identify the 10 ring. Reason every body looks after the other shoots is, its easier to identify the 10- ring in reference to an arrow that has been shot as you can see that with the naked eye and adjust accordingly as you are shooting. That's why we don't allow binios after the first shot or alternate the first shooter at each target.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

livly78 said:


> I shoot 3D with my dad and my two daughters every weekend. Every weekend i see the same group of people who I refrain from yelling at because of my two young daughters. These people are the ones who, while waiting for the group in front of them, are all looking through their binoculars at the same old Rhinehart or deta Mckenzie deer that you will see multiple times during the course of a shoot. After the group ahead finishes guy one steps up to the stake, knocks and arrow, gets out his binoculars and looks at the target again. Mean while his buddies are all looking through their binoculars. Guy one shoots, gets out his binoculars stares at the target while his buddies do the same. Guy one steps back and guy two goes through the same ritual. This continues through the entire group. I cant possibly understand why you would need to look at the target multiple times. the arrow will be down there and you can look at it up close at the end. I understand enjoying your time in the woods but when you are causing a large back up of other shooters. now they have to wait for the two groups in front of them to shoot. I would love to see clubs also ban binoculars.


I know what you mean.... My daughter and I went to a club shoot last summer and we got stuck behind 3 groups of 6-8 shooters (each). It was horrible. I mentioned "playing through" and one of the guys got pissy and started yelling about how he paid his $$$ just like I did... I agree, we all paid the same price but when you and your friends are the reason for the "log jam" common courtesy would be to let someone play through.... I'm a competitive person and want every shot to count but.... This was a simple shoot-for-fun Club shoot and these people were acting like there was $10k on the line every time they drew their bow. These guys were well beyond the IBO shooting times. If they were practicing for a bigger shoot, I understand but shouldn't they practice within the confines of the rules. (2 minutes for each shot) The group in front of me had 6 shooters and took them more than 30 minutes to shoot a target.

After being stuck behind them for 3 targets, we just skipped them and the 2 groups in front of them.

As for banning binos.... That's a bit extreme but:

1) Enforcing a time "at the stake" standard would go a long way to keeping things moving.
2) Limit group size
3) Posting courtesy and etiquette rules would also be helpful


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

The problem is at local clubs they collect the money and sit in the clubhouse. They don't monitor or care about group size or time at the stake. One of the local clubs has a sign that says 4 to a group. Last year my wife and I left after 22 targets and 3 1/2 hours. There were 12 people in one group and 10 and 8 in several others. Just getting by them stacked everyone up. When I stopped at the clubhouse and suggested they have people follow the posted rule they said they couldn't make anyone do that and they just sat there. I have not been back since.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

They should immediately step away from the stake after shooting. But much of what you complain about is simply because you, your dad and your two daughters are NOT playing the same game as the guys in front of you. You guys are just knocking about shooting arrows having fun with the kids while the other guys are competing against other adults and possibly training for big tournaments. I suggest skipping ahead of them if they don't voluntarily let you shoot through.

I shoot local tournaments to improve my game for the national ASA tournaments that I drive 8 -14 hours to attend. I invite people to shoot through but I also don't waste a lot of time BS'ing either because that's not my thing. I have a lot of fun but I also try to concentrate. 

We have to balance "family" shooting with competition shooters being on the same courses. I hear traditional archers frequently complaining about how long the compound archers take to shoot while we all know they will be spending time looking for some errant arrows. So it's really a wash. One problem that should not be happening is groups greater than 5 because we all know that stalls everything. Smaller groups that stall movement on the course need to either stop yacking so much or stop and let folks shoot through.

I've been hearing the same type of complaints for a very long time and they come from all over the country. Groups that want to fly through a course _and _the groups that want to slow poke through a course must _both _be considerate of other archers. How a course is laid out also has a lot of influence on how long it takes to shoot it and how much time is spent _not _shooting. A cleverly laid out course lets groups shoot, pull and move along without waiting for or holding up other groups. A big mistake some folks make when setting a course is having a cluster of targets at the turn which causes big hold ups every time. It may be fine at times but very often it causes back ups.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Please don't ban binoculars. My eyes are so bad, I can't tell where the head is without them and I have thought about shooting an IBO. No ASA west of Texas that I heard of. I will be going to Redding for my 26th time where you shoot 25 targets from 8:00am til 5:00pm, so I Know the problem with slow shooting and it is common to have 10 or more shooters on the line at a time. 

As a spot shooter, I never understood why only one archer shoots at a time in IBO or ASA. In every spot shoot, at least two are suppose to shoot at a time. What is the reason for this in 3D? Would it not speed things up to shoot two at a time. So if you have to touch a stake to shoot and there is no room for two people, why not have two stakes? Is there fear of the arrows hitting each other in flight or at the target, because it is a possibility in spots also, but we do it anyway? I am willing to bet that it s traditional to shoot one at a time and nobody ever thought about changing it.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

huteson2us2 said:


> Please don't ban binoculars. My eyes are so bad, I can't tell where the head is without them and I have thought about shooting an IBO. No ASA west of Texas that I heard of. I will be going to Redding for my 26th time where you shoot 25 targets from 8:00am til 5:00pm, so I Know the problem with slow shooting and it is common to have 10 or more shooters on the line at a time.
> 
> As a spot shooter, I never understood why only one archer shoots at a time in IBO or ASA. In every spot shoot, at least two are suppose to shoot at a time. What is the reason for this in 3D? Would it not speed things up to shoot two at a time. So if you have to touch a stake to shoot and there is no room for two people, why not have two stakes? Is there fear of the arrows hitting each other in flight or at the target, because it is a possibility in spots also, but we do it anyway? I am willing to bet that it s traditional to shoot one at a time and nobody ever thought about changing it.


The reason there is only one shooter at a time is because by rule the archers must be touching or straddling the stake when shooting. Also the shooting lane is often so narrow that only one person at a time can have a clear shot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

If you are irritated at the slow group then it means that you are a beginner, you will go through stages as you progress in your 3d career. When I was a new 3d shooter I took pride in how fast I could go around a course, I learned how to skip the slow groups and there are tricks to learning how to do this so get to learning. Then as I became a decent shooter I slowed down and began learning how to put up a solid score that might have a chance to win. The more I learned the more I saw that there was a reason for every single little detail about getting ready to take a shot. 

My 3d group has progressed to the point where one or two of us is winning most of the local tournaments we go to and we have been on the podium at the national tournaments. My buddy Jason is winning national tournaments and close to becoming a pro shooter this year so he is learning how to play the game really really good. 

My suggestion to you is to get into one of the groups like mine in your area with really good shooters and spend the day with them, you are going to find out that we are having a great time laughing and telling stories and making fun of each other. You are also going to see us shooting at a very high level and doing things with our bow that you didn't know was possible. 

And yeah, it takes us about 4.5 hours to shoot a 30 shot course. Then we get our trophies and cash and we head to a steak place and fill up our bellies.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I do have two buddies in my group that have been looking at their arrow with their bino's after shooting at the stake and that does pizz me off so I will probably say something to them soon. It won't be nice or have any tact and will probably cause them to need counseling but I will love every moment of it because people that glass the target at the stake deserve to be shot in the leg.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Cool story. lain:


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Padgett said:


> If you are irritated at the slow group then it means that you are a beginner, you will go through stages as you progress in your 3d career. When I was a new 3d shooter I took pride in how fast I could go around a course, I learned how to skip the slow groups and there are tricks to learning how to do this so get to learning. Then as I became a decent shooter I slowed down and began learning how to put up a solid score that might have a chance to win. The more I learned the more I saw that there was a reason for every single little detail about getting ready to take a shot.
> 
> My 3d group has progressed to the point where one or two of us is winning most of the local tournaments we go to and we have been on the podium at the national tournaments. My buddy Jason is winning national tournaments and close to becoming a pro shooter this year so he is learning how to play the game really really good.
> 
> ...


If YOU have to take more than 2 minutes to estimate range, check the wind, locate the 11 ring and get off a good shot, maybe you're the beginner.... This is what my complaints are regarding slow groups. If it were a group of 3-4 wouldn't be much of an issue. But when there are 6 guys all taking 3-5 minutes to get their shots off, then playing "grab ass" when scoring and pulling arrows, there are 5 smaller groups waiting right behind them. I've literally waited 90 minutes "between targets" because of this and it's frustrating and avoidable. 

I don't care how long it takes YOU to go through the course.... What I care about is the common courtesy to let faster groups "play through". I completely understand wanting to perform your best every time you shoot. I want to make the best shot possible every time I draw my bow. While I may not be as experienced as you or a lot of people here on AT, that doesn't mean a group of 8 shooters in front of me can't either a) let us shoot through or b) follow the rules and only take 2 minutes at the stake.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I played football basketball and baseball in highschool and then I got to play baseball in college, once I came out of college I raced bicycles for 10 years and rode for a total of 17 years and then I got into 3d archery. The first few years were fun but it wasn't until I worked hard to form a 3d group of friends that it really took off, my 3d group allows me to have more fun at the ripe old age of 47 than I have ever had in my life. We spend all day shooting and laughing and competing and beating each other 20 weekends per year at least and I can't believe how good it is. 

Archery is one of the best social sports I have ever seen, it is a individual sport but you are in a group of friends usually at local stuff and you can have a blast. Nationally once you go for a few years you meet tons of new friends and you progress up through the ranks with them and shoot with them from time to time but even though it isn't as awesome as my local group of best friends it is still a good time. 

It is up to you as a beginner to put in the time to develop a good 3d local group and learn how to play the game and enjoy the entire day.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have never had a group not allow me to shoot through, that doesn't mean I haven't ticked off a few people either. If you don't want to wait then you simply tell the group that you are going to shoot around on the next target. If they bull up and say something then you walk right past them and shoot the next target anyway, let them be upset. Don't worry, they are a slow group and within a few minutes you will be 3 targets in front of them anyway.

I have made the other choice before also and sit behind a slow group and suffered, if you are a fast group then simply don't do that because it sucks really bad. So ruffle some feathers and jump around.

QUICK JUMP OF SLOW PEOPLE

Slow group just left target 8 and is on its way to target 9 so you get up and as soon as you shoot your arrow at target 8 you head to target 10 while the next person shoots his arrow at target 8 and then he goes to target 10. Once you shoot your arrow at target 10 you head back to target 8 to be the guy who pulls and scores the target while the last shooter in your group shoots target 10 and he scores and pulls the arrows of target 10. Then you all are ready to shoot target 9 as the slow group finishes and moves to target 10. You will be done with target 9 before they even shoot 2 arrows of their 5 man group and can move on to target 11 and say good by to them. Again you can do this jump without saying a word to them.


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## livly78 (Mar 15, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> If YOU have to take more than 2 minutes to estimate range, check the wind, locate the 11 ring and get off a good shot, maybe you're the beginner.... This is what my complaints are regarding slow groups. If it were a group of 3-4 wouldn't be much of an issue. But when there are 6 guys all taking 3-5 minutes to get their shots off, then playing "grab ass" when scoring and pulling arrows, there are 5 smaller groups waiting right behind them. I've literally waited 90 minutes "between targets" because of this and it's frustrating and avoidable.
> 
> I don't care how long it takes YOU to go through the course.... What I care about is the common courtesy to let faster groups "play through". I completely understand wanting to perform your best every time you shoot. I want to make the best shot possible every time I draw my bow. While I may not be as experienced as you or a lot of people here on AT, that doesn't mean a group of 8 shooters in front of me can't either a) let us shoot through or b) follow the rules and only take 2 minutes at the stake.


 Amen


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## livly78 (Mar 15, 2017)

If you have to look through your binoculars more than once and cannot shoot ONE arrow in less than two minutes, I'm not impressed. Indoor you get 2' 30" for 3 arrows. It should take a few seconds to judge your yardage. And just because i have my children doesn't mean I'm not out there to compete or I'm a beginner. I can hold my own. I just think that if you look at it once that's enough. The target is moving and the 11 ring is still in the same place it was when you glassed it the first time.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

ever watch the good pro 3d`ers on bow junky? notice they carry a chair with that holds their arrows ? I went to that chair too, the 3d game is get`n slower so I just sit down now and wait and take my turn.don`t fool yourself if you hurry to much in 3d archery you won`t shoot as well, you have to decide what you want> get done soon or shoot better ?


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## livly78 (Mar 15, 2017)

There is a happy medium. I can execute perfect shots with out glassing the target for 10 minutes. just saying it gets a little ridiculous.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

livly78 said:


> There is a happy medium. I can execute perfect shots with out glassing the target for 10 minutes. just saying it gets a little ridiculous.


 yes it does ,that`s why I got a chair now.


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## bhutso (Jan 4, 2007)

I shot a local shoot earlier this year 

My buddy and I are pretty serious and competitive with eachother. It was all unknown yardage so we are not ridiculous about it but we take our time. Pick our number and use binos to pick a spot to shoot. 30 targets I shot even he shot a couple down 

I tell you that to tell you this 

We were the first ones out that day 
About 15 targets in a group of 3 men and a women caught up to us 

We politely invited them to go past us 
It was a 42 yard elk 
They didn't glance at the target hardly 
They drew there bow, picked a pin and let it fly 
All 4 of them shot in the time it would take a normal person to pick a yardage and set there sight.

We were shooting for different reasons and playing different games 

But at local shoots guys like us should understand an be considerate of others. They should let you go by. If I was the cause of a 2-3 group backup I would speed up but in the end we all have the same right to be there and In the end don't let it ruin quality time with your kids and father


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

bhutso said:


> I shot a local shoot earlier this year
> 
> My buddy and I are pretty serious and competitive with eachother. It was all unknown yardage so we are not ridiculous about it but we take our time. Pick our number and use binos to pick a spot to shoot. 30 targets I shot even he shot a couple down
> 
> ...


This^^^^.

I shot 15 Targets at my club tonight.... I shot by myself initially. I caught up with and passed through 3 groups of 4 and joined a group of 3 for the last 2 targets. Not because I was going too fast but because it takes considerably less time for a single shooter


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

You're a fool, or just out for fun, if you don't check the target with bino's from the stake before the shot. I find it equally ridiculous to check it from the stake after the shot. You can do that when the other guy steps up. I may take more or less time looking before the shot depending on lots of things. But I always look. If my daughter puts up a center 12, it's just a quick look to verify. If it's a black target in shadow, I'm going to take longer to figure out where I want to put the shot. 

I've passed groups. I've let groups pass. And I've explained to groups how to do it similar to Padgett's method above if need be. I've shot an out and back course as a one way course and walked past all of them on the way back. And I've also just been stuck behind 4 full targets waiting my turn.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

As weak as my eyes are I have to check, recheck, check again and then look once more through binos before I can draw and aim. Making good shots while aiming at the wrong spot simply sucks and at this point in my archery life I need more than to just hit the 10 ring. If all I was trying to do was to keep it in the 10 I'd be much quicker and also bored silly. But I really enjoy playing the game to the absolute best of my ability so I'll do my thing and it really shouldn't bother other archers. Typically my group of 4 or 5 are not the slowest on the course. If you are in a group of 2 or 3 it is likely you are finishing quicker than we are but it's not necessarily a problem for you or I.

If you like to roll around a course you have to learn to _happily _deal with skipping past groups that move slower. If you shoot in a slow group then you have to learn how to _happily _help faster groups get around you. 

If the club is allowing large groups (more than 5) on the course AND those groups are slowing everyone down by not making way for faster groups then that is an entirely different issue. That large group is full of jerks and the club is letting them be jerks.


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

IMO, if you are in that big of a hurry to shoot, you should be showing up as soon as registration is open. If you can't do that, either don't go or just expect to wait.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> IMO, if you are in that big of a hurry to shoot, you should be showing up as soon as registration is open. If you can't do that, either don't go or just expect to wait.


That's really not the way to think, if your on the range you need to be respectful of others. A large of extra slow group needs to be aware of what they are doing to the people behind them.


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

rockyw said:


> That's really not the way to think, if your on the range you need to be respectful of others. A large of extra slow group needs to be aware of what they are doing to the people behind them.


I don't disagree with that, but at the same time when groups are stacked upon groups, you can't expect every group to just let you shoot on through. If there is a large group of 6+ shooters together who have the entire course log jammed, the range needs to break them into two smaller groups and pick the pace up.

But I still stand by my statement, if you're in that big of a hurry, show up early or stay at home. Otherwise, just enjoy being outside.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

To me this is just another example of people with entitlement issues. Why does it bother you so much that if your kids weren't there, you think you would yell at those guys? What makes your outing that day more important than theirs? People say they should be courteous and hurry, or let you pass. If there isn't a huge line stacked up behind you, sure let them shoot through, but when I go to those things, I want to take my time, check for good reference spots, draw back, and if necessary let down to re-check or find a different reference to go off of. Then I might not like the feel, or my form may not be quite right, so I let down. What I'm doing is everything possible to make a perfect shot on every target, so I can be competitive by practicing being competitive.

If that bothers you because you want to fly through the course without waiting for someone ahead of you, then so be it. You sure would be a lot happier in life if you didn't view everything everyone else does as an infringement on your rights though. If you get behind me and decide to yell, go right ahead. I'll probably just smile and tell you to relax and enjoy the nice day. You came out to have fun. Think of the little extra wait as more time spent bonding with your kids, and stop being bothered by other people so much.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> If there is a large group of 6+ shooters together who have the entire course log jammed, the range needs to break them into two smaller groups and pick the pace up


Agree but it just doesn't happen. The biggest group I seen once was 15 young guys together. I walked around them and had to laugh, there were 15 arrows stacked in a turkey! LOL


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

cbrunson said:


> To me this is just another example of people with entitlement issues. Why does it bother you so much that if your kids weren't there, you think you would yell at those guys? What makes your outing that day more important than theirs? People say they should be courteous and hurry, or let you pass. If there isn't a huge line stacked up behind you, sure let them shoot through, but when I go to those things, I want to take my time, check for good reference spots, draw back, and if necessary let down to re-check or find a different reference to go off of. Then I might not like the feel, or my form may not be quite right, so I let down. What I'm doing is everything possible to make a perfect shot on every target, so I can be competitive by practicing being competitive.
> 
> No one said you can't take your time and make every shot count... but there is a point where your actions affect everyone else. IBO allows each shooter 2 minutes at the stake or be penalized.
> You're only allowed 2 let downs or get a penalty, no looking through binos (at the stake) after the shot or get a penalty. These are all very resonable standards and what should be expected at a 3D shoot.
> ...


My responses in red.

All I'm asking for is for everyone to follow the rules...What ever they may be. IBO/ASA/Club rules when it comes to pace of play, group size and courtesy. One slow group can jam up the works for 100 shooters behind them. So everyone can play their own game... I like to get my heart rate up and get the blood flowing to simulate a hunting as much as possible. (admittedly, I haven't done much cardio since I retired from the military) I'm not saying everyone should play the game like me.... I'm asking people who know they're going slower to let me play through. Most people have no problem stepping aside for a smaller faster group to pass. I have no complaints about them. It's the people with the "screw you" or the "you should slow down and play the game like me" attitude that I'm seeing from some of the posters in this thread.

We all have lives outside of archery. For me, I have to fit it in when I can this time of year. Between my daughter's softball schedule, my work schedule and the crappy weather we've had lately, it's a challenge to get to a 3d shoot.

For the majority of the 3D shooters that I know, it's not about score (lets face it, some of the scoring rings aren't in the ideal locations for hunting). It's about getting ready for hunting so you can put that arrow right behind the shoulder when your heart is pounding out of your chest.

Again, all I'm asking is for the rules to be followed:

IBO


> 5. Each archer shall be allowed a maximum of two (2) minutes to complete his or her shot. This rule
> shall operate as follows:
> a. Time will begin for the first archer when the previous group clears the target. Time will begin
> for the next archer when the previous archer releases his or her arrow.
> ...


ASA


> B. Each group will be responsible for monitoring and adhering to the following pace of shooting:
> Upon commencement of the round by a verbal announcement by the range official the first shooter at each target will be allowed two minutes in Unknown Distance and one minute in Known Distance to shoot their arrow.
> Each remaining member of the group will be allocated one minute to shoot.
> Each group will be permitted four minutes to score the target, pull arrows and reach the next stake at which point the time allotment procedure repeats.
> Any shooter who fails to adhere to their specified time limit will receive a warning from the group or range official for the first offense. The penalty for a subsequent offense is a deduction of five points from target score. Any further offenses will result in the disqualification of the shooter.


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## billybarool (Oct 1, 2009)

Wow there a lot of long posts in this thread. Just shoot through. If they get pissy about it or won't let you (which most folks wouldn't) be the better man and skip the target and report them.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

rockyw said:


> Agree but it just doesn't happen. The biggest group I seen once was 15 young guys together. I walked around them and had to laugh, there were 15 arrows stacked in a turkey! LOL


Once again, I have only shot one IBO in my life. I am looking at your problem from a spot shooter perspective. We are not allowed to skip targets and shoot them later because a group is slow. We have to ask to shoot through the group.

I suggested putting two stakes out per target so two archers can shoot at a time as spot shooter do, but was given the "because this is the way we do it" card. So I can see that you can complain about a problem but are unwilling to listen to suggestions. Not that my suggestion was the correct one, but I can see that there will not be a correct answer to your problem. Therefore you might as well learn to live with the problems and quit complaining. 

Buy a chair. It's what we do at Redding. At least we are smart enough to have half our group shoot at a time (up to 12 archers) out of a group of 24. If we shot one at a time, we would be at one target for over an hour. We also have your very top 3D pro archers competing at Redding and I never saw any of them complaining that more than one archer should not be shooting at a time.


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## jdw2920 (Oct 23, 2016)

We try and jump around if there is open targets one place we go it's like 1-10 down one side and 11-20 on other if we get behind slow people we shot 10 and 19 and so forth and eventually we will get around them on the back side. It is annoying to have people take forever it really cramps up any flow of shooting. This is why I quit playing golf, because once your waiting more than participating it just becomes more like work at that point


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Some of the reasons I stopped shooting 3D, This thread has confirmed I made the right decision.

The complaints are always the same, year after year.

If what they are doing is against the rules, ex: taking too long, too big of groups, and the club is made aware of it and chooses to do nothing to remedy it. You have a decision to make. 
Either suck it up or stop going to those shoots. Tell the club leaders your concerns and see if they will make the effort to enforce the rules and correct the problems.

Everyone payed their money to attend that shoot and has equal right to be there, no matter what game they are playing or how serious they are.

I kind of liked our state shoots, assigned groups (peers), shotgun start, so there's less pencil pushing and everyone finishes at almost the same time.


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## X-file (Jul 7, 2012)

I've shot in large groups and groups that are just my wife and I and have encountered everything everyone has mentioned. If I have limited time, I start the day early. The one experience I don't see mentioned is the "finding arrows group". Arrows are expensive and I do understand the need to search for them. But that as well should be reasonable. I was shooting in one of the groups that the op mentions. You know. Judging yardage, making sure you are looking at the correct white spot in the javelina and taking our time on a nice sunny day. Any group that came up behind us would get irritated that we were taking too long but what no on realized was that in front of us there was a small group of four. Two male adults and two kids that were also enjoying their day. They spent more time looking for arrows after the shot than our entire group did shooting. They did not want to let anyone shoot through because "we don't want to get behind one of you slow groups". So as the day went, we let every group that came up pass by all to be stuck at the next target waiting for the small group to find arrows. 

Point being to the Op is that there are many reasons the course can get slow it is not only the shooters


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## X-file (Jul 7, 2012)

XForce Girl said:


> Some of the reasons I stopped shooting 3D, This thread has confirmed I made the right decision.
> 
> The complaints are always the same, year after year.
> 
> ...




The only thing I don't like about the assigned groups is that my wife and I never get to shoot together at those. Archery and hunting are something that we share and not shooting together takes a lot of our enjoyment out of it


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

X-file said:


> The only thing I don't like about the assigned groups is that my wife and I never get to shoot together at those. Archery and hunting are something that we share and not shooting together takes a lot of our enjoyment out of it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I understand that but it's also fun to mix it up and shoot with new people once in a while. Maybe you'll make new friends or something.

I've taken groups of kids out and let their parents shoot in another group. The kids, ALL of them, said it was way more fun shooting in their new group than with their parents.


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## X-file (Jul 7, 2012)

We do meet new people all the time. Lol most of the time that happens when we are shooting just the two of us and have to shoot through the larger groups. Then catch up to a smaller group and fit in

It is actually quite funny that most of the people we have met on the course are due to larger groups slowing things down


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## Live4hunting (Dec 6, 2004)

We shot behind a group of 8 20ish guys this weekend. Shooting both compound and long as well shooting 3 different pegs. They we cutting up busting balls and having a good time. At first it was kind of fun and entertaining then it became annoying. They did not ask if we wanted to shoot through but when I asked they said no problem. As well we came on 3 older guys, it was a hilly course so every shot they would break out their chairs sit down catch their breath and im sure let their heart rate return to normal before they would shoot. When we came to them they initiated and said go head shoot through while we take a siesta.


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## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

Another reason I'm Pro " Marked Unknown" yardage. Paint a highly visible outline around the 12's, that way you don't have to spend so much time trying to register in your brain where the arrow has to go in a place where you cant see through your sight. Then the challenge becomes focused on what 3D was intended to do , concentrate on yardage to the target with the naked eye and you don't have to study the target for placement


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I personally can't imagine not having my bino's on the course, you have to have them and you have to use them over and over to score well.

With that said I would love to have them taken off the course because it would add so much game play to the 3d game and to me it would speed everything up a bunch. Not being able to stand there and search for the 12 ring and finding a marker to aim off of would be a major addition to the game of 3d. The game right now is becoming such a pin point sport where the top dogs are hitting well over 50 % of the 12's which is cool but forcing them to do it without their bino's would really add something to it. 

On the unknown side they still have to stand there and judge the distance but then just shoot, with the known guys they use a little range finger which would allow them to see the rings through the 4x lens that the range finder has but they don't have to judge the target so the time spent is minimal. All you have to do is tell the known guys you can step up and see the distance and once you are up there to shoot you can't use the range finder to look at the target.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

HalonShooter60X said:


> My responses in red.
> For the majority of the 3D shooters that I know, it's not about score (lets face it, some of the scoring rings aren't in the ideal locations for hunting). It's about getting ready for hunting so you can put that arrow right behind the shoulder when your heart is pounding out of your chest.
> Again, all I'm asking is for the rules to be followed:
> IBO
> ASA


Most of the people i shoot with it is about the score, its a competition and they take it seriously, but they also know this practice will help the hunting game. with that being said rules should be followed to keep things moving. Most clubs around here keep their groups to a max of 4


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

and aren't we about due for another umbrella discussion :deadhorse:


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## tony3443 (May 5, 2014)

The last shoot I was at the guy in front of me looked at the target with his bino's put them down turned around and started talking to someone behind him. Picked them back up and looked at the target.put them down and started talking to the person behind hin again. He did this 4 times. That is not cool in my book. This kind of thing gets under my nerves.


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## Uzurmnd247 (Jun 1, 2009)

This problem probably happens a couple times of year. I know not every club you go to has this problem. It's timing! Try going to the clubs at different times! I have shot around groups and came back to a target I skipped, I have had groups say shoot on through, I have even stopped to help other people's children learn to shoot better! It's not about how quick you can shoot through a course, it's about enjoying your time outdoors! I know some peoples time is limited as to when they can shoot. I just shot my first 3-d this year on April 15th. and yes, I like to be competitive! On Dec. 26th,2016 I was taken to the emergency room for my blood pressure being 280 over 222! This happens about every 3-4 yrs. I got on blood pressure medication. Then my 12 yr. old daughter started to have blood issues. Been going to UVA Medical Center a lot and staying for weeks at a time. There are more important issues in life than worrying about how fast you get through a course!


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## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

tony3443 said:


> The last shoot I was at the guy in front of me looked at the target with his bino's put them down turned around and started talking to someone behind him. Picked them back up and looked at the target.put them down and started talking to the person behind hin again. He did this 4 times. That is not cool in my book. This kind of thing gets under my nerves.


That's why I always carry a blunt in my stool quiver.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Mathew Lyman said:


> That's why I always carry a blunt in my stool quiver.


and THAT is why some folks carry .40's..................


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

Would a simpler solution be that no matter who you are, no matter how good your ego says you are, JUST follow the rules ?


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## Hopperton (Oct 30, 2005)

Glassing after the shot is rude and inconsiderate, you can not get the arrow back or move it. Shooting groups of more then 4 should be reason for being asked to leave if you can not follow the rules. 5 minutes per shot is crazy, you should practice in your back yard if you are that slow. 

Now my complaint is the defense course and people that shoot 3 to 4 arrows at each target. This drives me nuts.


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## Methodman (Feb 15, 2015)

I know what you mean I'm competitive to an extent, but dear god shoot the thing already . Couple weeks ago my kid and I are at a shoot. We see a group on a tree stand getting ready to shoot. We are standing back aways to give em space, so we cant see the target or distance. Well they are allll going through the ordeal. crazy. Binocs, pause, binocs, pause. one is doing some counting thing on his fingers. Now keep in mind, they are next to each other on the SAME PLATFORM. It takes forever. We are thinking this must be a fox, 40 plus yards in brush or something... So they at least invite us to shoot through, and before they even pull arrows(I asked, but no go ahead...) So I climb the stand. Its an antelope- you know the one- with the bull right where the white line hits the brown line.....Its about 30 yards. I literally stop, look, come to draw, and shoot. I would say 15 seconds on the platform, if that. Busted one of their nocks. My kid shoots from his stake, x ring and we are moving on. They may still be out there for all we know..


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## Methodman (Feb 15, 2015)

If you are irritated at the slow group then it means that you are a beginner, you will go through stages as you progress in your 3d career. 
My 3d group has progressed to the point where one or two of us is winning most of the local tournaments 
And yeah, it takes us about 4.5 hours to shoot a 30 shot course

Really????Not a beginner, not a pro. Just a guy and his kid. I place almost every week. So does he. Two weeks ago we teamed up another twosome because we were both disgusted by all the slow pokes- cant beat em, hang out and meet new people. One of the ladies is the #4 shooter in the state at her level. The other hasn't shot in 15 years. We ran a 28 target course in two hours 15 minutes, 4 people shooting from 3 different stakes. We aren't racing. This isn't that hard. There is the animal. 20 yards looks like 20, 30 looks far, beyond that cut the range in half and multiple by 2. Aim anchor and kill it. One person pulls, one person scores. talk between targets, take care of business at the stake. Is a real deer(or trex) going to let you f around for 5 minutes??????????


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> Really????Not a beginner, not a pro.


LOL I agree with you, I have been shooting 30 years and people like you seen really tick me off. A few weeks ago I seen 2 guys ahead of me stop and talk going to and from the target at every target. I suggested load enough for them to hear me that they should call each other later on the phone and not stop and talk every 2 minutes. They did pick up the pace but really? I also don't care, (no offence intended) for the same guys shooting together at local shoots every week and then guess what winning all the time. Break your groups up and shoot with different people or don't turn your cards in. Most clubs around here don't give anything out any more so its just for fun and practice but you still need to be considerate and move along.


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## Dickenscpa (May 2, 2015)

Maybe I'm laid back I dunno. I pretty much agree with KStigall's post on page one. Some of these guys are practicing for a big tourney coming up with a lot on the line or they're shooting for points for ASA awards. People are there for multiple reasons - pure fun, serious practice, fun but competitive nature, etc. The important thing is none of those reasons are more important than the other. First in line, first in time. I always look at it like if I hadn't been jaw jacking with my buddies at signup I would have been in front of some of these people - BUT I enjoyed my time with friends so no loss.

I like getting behind a slower group because I tend to do everything fast. I HATE the thought of someone waiting on me. But when I get it in my head we're all waiting no matter what, it takes some of that off me and I will slow down and concentrate better.

One thing I've noticed in my area, high level people are so nice and friendly to low level people like me and I have been the beneficiary of wonderful tips during these slow downs. Chance Beauboef lives close to me and shoots at my local ASA. Chance, his girlfriend (Chelsey?) and one other guy was one group in front of me a couple of months ago. Because of the log jam we wound up waiting together and he was tremendously helpful.

When I started my CPA firm in 1998, my Dad owned a company from 1964-2010 when he sold it. He used to bring lunch every Friday and pick up payroll. LOVED those days! I was expecting some checks in the mail that I needed badly. I kept looking out the window at the mail kiosk to see if they mail had come. My Dad asked what I was doing or worried about. I told him and he said, "It doesn't matter how much you worry or fret Monday thru Thursday about who will pay you on Friday, it doesn't change what checks come in the mail. You just worried."

So now in a lot of facets of my life I just don't allow myself to get worked up over what I can't control.


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