# Bare Shaft Nock high



## Barredowl (Nov 22, 2017)

I am venturing into bare shaft tuning for the first time. I have a 35# factory recurve that I am shooting off the shelf. I have some aluminum 1916 arrows cut to 30" with 125 grain points. They are impacting pretty straight most of the time in terms of nock left/right. I cannot get the nock high reading solved. I have been shooting recurves/self bows for many years but have never really worked on my form or concentrated on it until lately. I bought this 35# bow to do just that. I have tried altering my form and release in every way I can imagine and I can tell when I get "better" results, the bow sounds quieter, smoother, and the shot feels better and even the nock high improves but does not go away. I have tried holding the bow vertically and canting and either way the nock still impacts high. The one thing that helps the most is not applying pressure with the heal of my hand on the grip. If I focus on just making contact as high up on the grip with only the web of my forefinger and thumb it helps the most but does not solve the nock high. I have also added a nock point below the nock with no significant improvement. I have not yet raised the top nock point but will be doing that tonight. I would say its 1/4" above square right now. 

What I'm starting to suspect is that Ive got a bow that is not tillered well since my grip makes the most difference of anything I have tried and my nock point is already fairly high. Im sure all my form inconsistencies are amplified by the fact that this is a lightweight bow which is what I wanted to happen to help to teach/force me to improve my form. I still have some nock point experimenting to do but is it likely that I just have a bow with a lemon of a tiller that I will likely have to live with? All that being said I can get pretty decent flight with the bare shaft on some shots but I am determined to learn as much as I can about my form/tuning of a bow to get perfect arrow flight. Im wondering if the tiller is just out of whack to the point that its beyond tunable? Maybe this is common that 1 out of however many production/mass produced bows are just plain poorly tillered beyond tunable or good form?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Where does the arrow impact relative to fletched and at what distance are you shooting?


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Forget about bare shaft TUNING. Bare shaft plane called planing. www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'.

The problem with what your doing could be the target material. AND false readings. Don't think that the above gets rid of all false readings, it gets rid of most.

Nock high comes from two things torque on the bow string and the nocking point too low which causes the rear of the arrow to hit the shelf and kick up - which makes a too low nocking point look too high. Here's why planing works. IF your NP is too low the arrow will be above the fletched arrow AND the nock will be lower than the shaft (depending on the target material). If the impact is high and the nock is high you hit the shelf.

Bowmania


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## Yooper-travler (Feb 28, 2011)

One more thing to add to what Bowmainia said. Try (if haven't already) shooting at 20 yards and see if your nock high is still present.


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## Barredowl (Nov 22, 2017)

I haven't shot any fletched arrows yet. Waiting on some feathers to arrive by mail. I'm using a big round bale of hay as an arrow stop. I would think it would allow for the arrow to show true impact? 

I'm not sure what it means to torque the string as it applies to good/poor shooting form? I'll look into that and play with the nock point some more. I just assumed 1/4" above square was already relatively high?


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Tuning by the angle of the bare shaft in your target can be misleading. Lots of targets will magnify the lean of the shaft, more so the more angled the shaft is at impact. I often shoot at large round bales and they are not the best, nor are they the worst but they are far from uniform.

Tuning by comparing the relative point of impact between bare shafts and fletched takes the target medium out of the equation for the most part and is much easier and more reliable. Since the whole idea behind tuning with bare shafts is to minimize the need for fletching, once you are tuned bare shafts and fletched will group together from any reasonable range. 

Look at the angle of the shaft after you note where the bare shaft is relative to the fletched arrows. It should show the same thing, even though the accuracy may be less reliable. For a right handed shooter, stiff arrows will have bare shafts left of your fletched shafts an the nocks angled to the right. Weak arrows will have bare shafts right of fletched and angle left. 

Nocking point position is the up/down impact of bare vs fletched.

Shoot two or three bare and two or three fletched shafts at the same spot, compare where they group relative to each other. Bowmania posted the entire tuning article above, this is the section specifically about bare shaft tuning...http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html.

Start close, 12-15 yards and work back to at least 20 yards. If you are a hunter once you get bare shafts tune with fletched, both tipped with field points, try a few fletched arrows tipped with broadheads of the same weight. They should hit the same spot.

If you are shooting split finger start with the bottom edge of your top nocking point 1/2" to 9/16" above a line perpendicular to the string at brace and flush with the top of the shelf (use a nocking point gauge that snaps to your string). If you are shooting three under start with the bottom edge of your top nocking point 1/8" to 1/4" higher. If your present nocking point has the bottom of the top one 1/4" above that perpendicular line it will almost certainly be too low, quite a bit too low. If you are measuring the 1/4" as above an arrow that is square to the string you should be closer but your results still sound like a higher nocking point is called for.

Varying the pressure on your grip has the same effect as raising or lowering your nocking points. Pick a grip that is repeatable and tune for it.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

What brand/model of bow? What brace height? What length are you actually drawing? That info might lead to some suggestions.

Have you physically measured the tiller difference, at least undrawn? Have you tried the nocking point right from square?

My first thought was a too-stiff arrow, but we need to know your actual draw length. Off-the-shelf can cause a stiff arrow to behave weirdly.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Barredowl said:


> I am venturing into bare shaft tuning for the first time. I have a 35# factory recurve that I am shooting off the shelf. I have some aluminum 1916 arrows cut to 30" with 125 grain points. They are impacting pretty straight most of the time in terms of nock left/right. I cannot get the nock high reading solved. I have been shooting recurves/self bows for many years but have never really worked on my form or concentrated on it until lately. I bought this 35# bow to do just that. I have tried altering my form and release in every way I can imagine and I can tell when I get "better" results, the bow sounds quieter, smoother, and the shot feels better and even the nock high improves but does not go away. I have tried holding the bow vertically and canting and either way the nock still impacts high. The one thing that helps the most is not applying pressure with the heal of my hand on the grip. If I focus on just making contact as high up on the grip with only the web of my forefinger and thumb it helps the most but does not solve the nock high. I have also added a nock point below the nock with no significant improvement. I have not yet raised the top nock point but will be doing that tonight. I would say its 1/4" above square right now.
> 
> What I'm starting to suspect is that Ive got a bow that is not tillered well since my grip makes the most difference of anything I have tried and my nock point is already fairly high. Im sure all my form inconsistencies are amplified by the fact that this is a lightweight bow which is what I wanted to happen to help to teach/force me to improve my form. I still have some nock point experimenting to do but is it likely that I just have a bow with a lemon of a tiller that I will likely have to live with? All that being said I can get pretty decent flight with the bare shaft on some shots but I am determined to learn as much as I can about my form/tuning of a bow to get perfect arrow flight. Im wondering if the tiller is just out of whack to the point that its beyond tunable? Maybe this is common that 1 out of however many production/mass produced bows are just plain poorly tillered beyond tunable or good form?


Couple of things I see without watching you shoot. . .

You get better results without applying pressure with the heal of your hand. . . If I read and understood this statement correctly, you shouldn't be using the heal of your hand.
Your bow grip should be almost like shaking someone's hand. No palming or Healing. If I misunderstood your statement, sorry about that.

Another thing. . .Off the shelf. It will be much more difficult to get your arrow to fly like they should fly. Is it possible? Yes, just a little more difficult. I suggest getting a rest with a plunger. 

Who is watching the arrow? You? If so, get someone else to watch the arrow. You have no businesss watching arrows fly down the lane. Your attention should be
on Target, Follow thru, and Release.

Unless you have a good release, form, and follow thru (and I mean a good), I would not worry about bare shaft tuning. Either one of these 3 variables will throw
your tuning off.

Distance. . . Bare shaft at 20 yards. At that distance, you will know whether your form, follow thru, or release is any good. People bare shaft anywhere between
a couple of inches from their bow, all the way to 10 feet or so. 20 yards is the real tell-tall story of it all.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Stash said:


> What brand/model of bow? What brace height? What length are you actually drawing? That info might lead to some suggestions.
> 
> Have you physically measured the tiller difference, at least undrawn? Have you tried the nocking point right from square?
> 
> My first thought was a too-stiff arrow, but we need to know your actual draw length. *Off-the-shelf can cause a stiff arrow to behave weirdly*.


Well said Stash. . .One of the reasons why I never shoot off the shelf. Any arrow off the shelf can behave weirdly. Some misbehave more than others.


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## Barredowl (Nov 22, 2017)

Its a Bear Super Grizzly 35#, Im drawing right at 28" maybe a tad under if anything. Arrows are 1916 XX75's 30" long. Have'nt measured tiller of the bow (don't know why I didn't think about that). Nocking Right at square makes the nock high worse.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I’m going to go with a too-stiff arrow. You need to be around 1816, or 1716 with a 28” arrow.

But how much nock high are you talking about, anyways? As long as the arrows aren’t cartwheeling down range, a little bit isn’t going make the slightest difference to you when you’re actually shooting with fletched arrows. Just stick some 5” feathers on, and go have fun. Way too many people on this forum agonize over “perfect tuning” when frankly it isn’t going to help their accuracy in the least.


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## Barredowl (Nov 22, 2017)

Ok fletched 3 arrows and left three bare and with my ability back to about 12 yards they are grouping right with my fletched shafts. They aren't increasing my grouping size much if any really. They still look to be flying with the nock end very high as they're headed to the target. I'll test some more in the daylight first chance I get.

Im interested in learning to tune and what all makes a difference with the hopes it will give flawless broadhead consistency compared to my field points. I am under no illusions that my accuracy is going to improve. I just want to know 110% for sure that my equipment had nothing to do with a miss.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Try running a second nock set. One above arrow nock, another below. See what happens.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

12 yards is a good start. If you're bare shafts and arrows are impacting the same place, I wouldn't worry about anything else, until you're ready to move back a few yards and do it again. Once you get those bare shafts and arrows impacting together at about 25 yards, you'll be good to go. 

Like Bender suggested, I think it's always good to have two nocksets.


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## elkstabber (Oct 24, 2017)

Barredowl: you said that you've shot recurves/selfbows for many years and that you can't get the nock high problem fixed. You've already tried the usual things like moving the nock point, having a double nock point, and you suspect a tiller problem. I understand because I've shot nock high for many years and nobody could help me figure it out until finally I just started trying a bunch of weird stuff.

Here is what worked for me. Don't change your grip on the bow because you've done this a while and have settled into a consistent grip. Instead, change how your fingers pull back on the string. Shoot a few times using just two fingers. Shoot a few times making sure that you're not touching the arrow's nock. Shoot a few times pulling harder with your top finger. Shoot a few times pulling harder with your middle finger. Experiment. I hope this helps.


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## Barredowl (Nov 22, 2017)

Yes I've spent years cementing poor form, bad habits, and target panic into my shooting. I did experiment with gripping the bow loosely and intentionally torqueing the string to see how the bow moved with my intentional twisting of the string. I started letting the cant of my bow be mostly determined by my string hand and that seems to help the most. I have always canted the bow with a firm grip and drawn the string with no consideration for torque. I'll keep experimenting but I believe I'm learning a lot about form. Its hard to know what you don't know but Im continuing to learn. Hope I can break my bad habits down and rebuild my shooting into something much better.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

Maybe it's the bow and not the indian. Try adding weight to the string above the nocking point. Like a string leech or other string silencer. Maybe even try adding two to the top and removing your bottom silencer (if you have one).

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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