# Incentive for shooting NFAA Mid Atlantic Sectionals



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly, some of us have already ran into this and at the state level. Illinois Archery Association/NFAA membership $65. There are only Championships, 3 of them, and one Spring Opener for each zone, Northern, Central and Southern. Spring Openers don't count towards anything. The Two Day Indoor, Outdoor (optional thing) and Two Day Field, each costing $35. For the optional Outdoor, you can shoot one day (your pick Saturday or Sunday) for awards and you can both days which goes for Aggregate Award. More people attend, paying the $35. Maybe 1/4 of those shooting shoot the two day and for the same $35. 

For probably half shooting it's a overnight affair and for sure it cuts down on attendance. Me and DT thought about the Outdoor which was near home, 30 miles. So joining $65 plus $35 and another $10 for late entry. So $100 or $110 for late. Awards amount to a plaque (sometimes) and medals. Back in 2006 I was on the IAA Board and knew the cost of the medals "Made in China." $2.85. I'll bet the cost hasn't double. 

So $65 membership, $105 for the 3 Championships. Total $170 plus whatever overnight stays (motel, foods) scattered over 8 months.

Forgot; There is the Rendezvous. It's a 3D and hardly any IAA members attends. I remember one club blowing it's stack over just 3 IAA members attending - back then the IAA had 365 members.

Largest attendance came with IAA 3D Championship, open to the public, drawing around 107 shooters. Our club held the 2003 3D Championship, drawing 215 shooters. In 2006 the IAA eliminated the 3D Championship because the lack of IAA members shooting. Still drew 100 and more shooters and a hefty paycheck to the IAA. Our club offered $300 up front and pay for all awards to keep the 3D Championship intact and we were turned down. 

Clubs pay to the IAA 30% after deductions plus pay for all awards.

I am now only a member of the ASA, $35 per year. Qualifiers and the State Championship have fees of $25, no late fees. We have more and more Qualifiers every year, allowing clubs to host a Qualifier as long as it's 100 miles from another club hosting a Qualifier. We have SOY (needing 5 Qualifiers and the Championship) and growing to more and more classes.
Qualifiers and State Championship are held over the weekend. You may shoot all in one day or 1/2 Saturday and 1/2 Sunday.
Qualifiers are drawing more and more shooters every year. The Championship attendance record has been broken 7 times since 2011, over 100 to start and 150 I believe. Down this last year, but still 140+.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Sonny, I have a similar situation with the PSAA where we have State membership dues, and then State and Regional shoots for Indoor, Outdoor Target, Field, and Bowhunter/Animal rounds, and I don't have a problem with the dues and shoot costs because there is significant costs such as renting facilities and maintaining target butts that can accommodate 400-500 shooters at a time, and the numerous awards that are handed out.

I have memberships for PSAA, NFAA, and USAA and I shoot multiple State and Regional tournaments as well as many other money shoots each year that totals well over $1000 per year in dues and registration fees to participate, but all of them have tangible awards/rewards that seem equitable based on fees. Mid-Atlantic Sectionals seems different than all the others because as best I can tell, the cost of the shoot seems disproportionately high for virtually no reward/award for the shooters.

To be clear, I had already shot 3 other tournaments at the same club that is one of the 20 clubs hosting Mid Atlantic Sectionals. 1was a local Invitational, one was the State NFAA Indoor championship, and 1 was a money shoot. I have/had no issues paying to enter those because the cost of the shoot was proportional to the awards/rewards. Sectionals costs about 4-4.5 times as much as other similar shoots where the "real" cost to the clubs is just the cost of a couple paper targets and the cost to turn on the range lights. To be clear, my issue is not with the ~20 clubs that host Mids, it's with NFAA which set the $45 fee. If it were up to the club, it would probably cost $15 because $10 is what they normally charge for a 60 arrow tournament with basic awards.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Interesting. The Midwest Indoor Sectionals have been a 2 day shoot, 120 arrows, for the times I have participated.
Not sure why the Mid Atlantic only shoots one day. Since it's a pre-cursor to the Indoor Nats, why wouldn't the Mid-Atlantic Sectionals use the same format?
Maybe call up one or all 8 representatives of the Mid-Atlantic Region and find out what the basis is for the single day format. 

My incentive for Indoor and Outdoor Sectionals is see how I measure up against the regional competition without incurring air travel costs.

And, if you place, you get an awesome medal about 3-6 months later (sarcasm applied).


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

removed duplicate post.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

To clarify, Mid Atlantic Sectionals is a 60 arrow NFAA 5-spot tournament. Archers are permitted to shoot 2 rounds, but only the highest round is counted. In our area, archers may shoot their round on Friday night or Sat /Sun at 9am or 12pm.

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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

So, fundamentally you're just venting?
I don't go to shoots where the cost/shot count/time investment/fun ratio is not worth it.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I guess it could be considered venting, I was interested in learning how others felt about the cost and/or whether there's a reason to participate that I'm missing.
Instead of NFAA Sectionals, I shot 3 other tournaments this weekend for a combined cost of $26, and from what I can gather, all of them had larger participation than our Sectional shoot, and while at those other shoots, I talked to at least a half dozen others that usually shoot Sectionals but did not this year for the same reason I didn't. It will be interesting to see how much attendance dropped from last year when the results are published.


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## NP Archery (Jul 29, 2008)

Last Indoor Sectional for me was 2 years ago. SE Sectional held in Ga. We shot 2 rounds and both were counted. And you are right.....a small medal or maybe even a plaque and patch 6 months later ain't much considering the cost to participate. 

I'm lucky in that our state has 6 NFAA sanctioned State Championships each year. Vegas 2 round tournament, Indoor 2 round tournament, 900 Round, International Round, Field Round and a Hunter Round. Add this to a well ran 25 target 3D tournament just about every weekend and I guess I cant complain about opportunity to shoot somewhere.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

nestly - take it up with your state director or sectional councilman. The fee increase from $35 to $45 was a direct result of an agenda item brought to the NFAA Board of Directors and voted in. Rationale for the agenda item was that the clubs/shops hosting the event could not make a reasonable amount of money at the lower entry fee. The state directors, selected by their state memberships, voted in the higher fees. NFAA HQ did not make that decision. Just an fyi - I believe the host club gets 50% of the entry fees. NFAA gets the other 50% and provides the targets, scorecards, and awards out of their portion. Fees are the same for all Sectionals. Format can vary, however. Great Lakes is similar to Midwest in that we shoot 2 days, both counting just like Nationals. We use it as a warm-up so to speak for Nationals.

Just adding some additional background................ 

>>---------->


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

nestly,

This may appear somewhat off topic but I believe it to be precisely THE topic. 

In this time of which we are the most mobile society in history it has become popular to hold these multi-location Sectional "Championships" so "everyone" can participate without having to travel. Reality is, they are anything BUT a Sectional Championship. Thus the feeling that you are getting short changed because you are not shooting at a bigger venue head to head with all the shooters from your Section at one time. The direction the Sectional Championships have taken is a travesty. Further, there's no need to even have a "Sectional Championship" anymore. Why not just take your score from your state tournament, mail it in so to speak and call the person with the highest score the "Sectional Champion?" 

It's time to get back to having one Sectional Championship in every section, head to head competition at one venue. Then you would be more likely to feel you were getting a good value for you entry rather than the current mail in tournaments. Thanks for bringing this up, it's pathetic, however I doubt it's going to change. It's just a byproduct of the participation trophy culture we've developed. 

.02


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Lazarus said:


> ...It's time to get back to having one Sectional Championship in every section, head to head competition at one venue....


It's a 20+ hour drive to parts of my Section. For the southwest Sectional it's been a mail-in tournament (for the 450 and NFAA 300s) for as long as I can remember (late 70s). When it comes time for our Southwest Field Sectionals the attendance gets knocked down substantially (around 40 shooters if it's NOT in California).

I'm in favor of multiple locations in the winter and spring when travel is more dangerous. I'd hate to see it be a survivor win's affair.

In all honesty, I don't think the fees are out of whack except for the late fee. Nestly has already paid his $45 NFAA dues (plus state dues) and if you want to shoot the NFAA shoots you have to be a member. Maybe they need a National "Guest" class like a lot of states have (?).


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Lazarus said:


> nestly,
> 
> This may appear somewhat off topic but I believe it to be precisely THE topic.
> 
> ...


Good points, Laz
Because of the many locations Sectionals is spread out over, I'd be shooting with/against basically the same people I shoot with/against every week. I can't justify spending $45 to shoot 60 or even 120 arrows at that event when it's exactly the same thing I do 1 or 2 times every weekend anyway for $10-$20. Little medals don't hold much value to serious competitors in comparison to the recognition that comes along with shooting in the presence of your competition. Last year, by the time our Sectional results were made public, Indoor season was over and the winners didn't get their deserved recognition (and no, your name in the magazine along with every other person in the country that shot one of the sectional events is not adequate recognition, IMO)

I'd still be in favor of a Sectional shoot if it was indeed a bigger venue and a gathering of many archers, but as it stands I agree that there's no point in a Mid Atlantic Sectional when the NFAA State would/could do the same thing. Speaking of which, it cost $20 for our State shoot which was also standard 60 arrow 300 5-spot which the archer could shoot twice if they wanted and use the higher score. So identical in every way to the Sectional except Sectionals cost more than twice as much. Each State has to provide awards in each class, and Sectionals only hands out awards in each class for everyone, so again, what's the extra $25 for when the real cost of conducting the shoot is less than the State shoot?


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

The medals basically suck for adults, imho. ASA and Vegas are proven models for cash paybacks......essentially, mini-money shoots in each class.

Which brings me to the point. You already shoot well enough to qualify for a pro card, so that may be an option if your real job and family life will allow it. You will likely get kicked around some the first year or two, but you WILL get better in a hurry because you WILL work at it harder. Look at it as a chance to juice your interest in archery, and reach your potential as a senior shooter. Probably nothing you haven't already thought about.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I have experience in semi pro and pro. I have no delusions about where Id be in pro class based on my current abilities. Ironic that you mentioned it though as I talked to two pros I shoot with regularly that agree the cost/reward is not there.

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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Of the late fees noted. None of our Championships draw enough shooters to warrant a late fee. Hey, 57 shooters the last time I shot the IAA Indoor Championship. 91 shooters was the highest number for a Indoor. We have clubs that won't even bid for a IAA event because attendance is that bad.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

I agree the prices are getting out of control. Me and my family shot this weekend and I was wondering the same thing - what are we doing? This is pretty expensive for what amounts to be a poor experience overall. We go to support the local club that's hosting and enjoy shooting with friends, but for $115 + $80 NFAA membership (family of 4)? 

In this day/age, there's absolutely no reason for results to be as poorly managed as they are. We'll go shoot Nationals, know our results there immediately, and then drive home before we find out results for Mids from last weekend.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

I've come to the same conclusion regarding Sectionals. Here in Florida they are held concurrent with our state shoot. If you pay the $45 your state scores are entered in the Sectionals. You do not get to shoot 2 additional rounds for the Sectional.

Overall, I am satisfied with our state organization and the way it is run. We have 9 state championships plus other tournaments run by the FAA. The cost is less than $25 per shoot.


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## Peacemakr45 (Feb 18, 2019)

Glad I won one when I did. We actually got trophies back when dirt was young. 1982 Mid atlantic regionals Men's Freestyle limited.


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## pbuck (Mar 30, 2010)

Dang! That’s a big jump in entry fee. 

I’m already an NFAA member since I shot 2 State rounds this year but I haven’t been able to shoot the Mids since 2017. Here in WV we’re able to shoot two days so the price then wasn’t so bad considering normal range fees. 

I agree it’s not much of a reward other than the self satisfaction of seeing how you stack up against other shooters you normally wouldn’t get to shoot against. I had a bit of a personal challenge going trying to beat Matt Setzer 

I know a LOT of the local guys, myself included, wouldn’t travel far to shoot this tournament so I’m assuming it’s that way elsewhere. Keeping the multiple venues has to help with attendance. It’s just not worth the effort of traveling multiple hours for a plaque and patch or tiny $2 medal. I’m still not sure what I’m supposed to do with the patch and medals. My Boy Scout merit badge sash days are long over. Lol


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## twofinger (Feb 12, 2012)

it has always been my question why do you need to join nfaa for a state shoot? I will gladly join the state assoc. but for me there are not enough shoots for me to justify joining the nfaa. are we just there to support the pro's? I don't mind spending money if I feel I am getting a fair shake. I lived in Illinois for most of my life I tried for years for the iaa to open up the state indoor to all shooters not just iaa\nfaa members no luck. to me it seems simple to open it to all shooters it opens up the shooter pool. now I live in Kansas and its the same nfaa membership is added to the state membership. some one needs to explain what the state assoc. get from the nfaa


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

twofinger said:


> it has always been my question why do you need to join nfaa for a state shoot? I will gladly join the state assoc. but for me there are not enough shoots for me to justify joining the nfaa. are we just there to support the pro's? I don't mind spending money if I feel I am getting a fair shake. I lived in Illinois for most of my life I tried for years for the iaa to open up the state indoor to all shooters not just iaa\nfaa members no luck. to me it seems simple to open it to all shooters it opens up the shooter pool. now I live in Kansas and its the same nfaa membership is added to the state membership. some one needs to explain what the state assoc. get from the nfaa


Based on what was written above, NFAA provides the targets and the medals and publishes the combined results, but I agree there's minimal expense in those things and the host club could easily absorb them (targets ~$0.30 each, and low cost medals) for an additional $1-$2 instead of requiring memberships for those that shoot 1 event, plus prying an additional $15-$20 from every shooter that gets sent to NFAA HQ for seemingly no reason. I don't necessarily disagree with requiring NFAA membership, (USAA and World Archery do as well to be eligible for awards/records) but I agree it's a deterrent for those who only shoot 1 or 2 events per year. Also, for the cost of membership, you would think NFAA could do a less horrible job of keeping and maintaining state/sectional/national results and records. Currently, you can find result for "some" events in the last few years, but I have no idea how to find results that are more than a few years old, or any NFAA records on their website?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

twofinger said:


> ... are we just there to support the pro's? ...


You're not supporting the pros. You're supporting Yankton, SD.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Bobmuley said:


> You're not supporting the pros. You're supporting Yankton, SD.


Agree...the real cost for a pro to attend and shoot arrows into a target is the same as it is for amateurs. The bigger awards are because pros pay more. If you want to know where the big disparity is, its the fact that NFAA gives identical Silver Bowls to a person that was the only person in their class as they do for the winner of the big classes like AMFS. They really need to base awards on the amount of competition.

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## pbuck (Mar 30, 2010)

nestly said:


> Agree...the real cost for a pro to attend and shoot arrows into a target is the same as it is for amateurs. The bigger awards are because pros pay more. If you want to know where the big disparity is, its the fact that NFAA gives identical Silver Bowls to a person that was the only person in their class as they do for the winner of the big classes like AMFS. They really need to base awards on the amount of competition.
> 
> Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk


They did get rid of a few of the more obscure classes like Freestyle limited and restricted several more to only amateurs.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

pbuck said:


> They did get rid of a few of the more obscure classes like Freestyle limited and restricted several more to only amateurs.


I don't think they dropped AMFSL, in fact I have a very distinct memory at Field Nationals last year of how easy it would have been to collect a Silver Bowl if I still shot fingers, because there were only 2 shooters. So on the subject of NFAA Field Nationals, I just reviewed the results and there were 17 classes with only 1 shooter, so 17 Silver Bowls were given out to people that didn't even really have to shoot, all they had to do was show up. Another 10 classes had only 2 shooters, and 6 more classes that had only 3 participants. All total, there were 40 classes with 5 or fewer shooters at Field Nationals last year and only 87 competitors in those 40 classes. 

So to summarize, that's 40 Silver Bowls distributed among 87 shooters so nearly 1/2 of all the competitors in those classes collected Silver bowls
Compare that to AMFS which had 86 shooters and only one got a Bowl, or SMFS with 59 shooters and only one Bowl.


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## pbuck (Mar 30, 2010)

Ok, it was bowhunter Freestyle limited.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

nestly said:


> I don't think they dropped AMFSL, in fact I have a very distinct memory at Field Nationals last year of how easy it would have been to collect a Silver Bowl if I still shot fingers, because there were only 2 shooters. So on the subject of NFAA Field Nationals, I just reviewed the results and there were 17 classes with only 1 shooter, so 17 Silver Bowls were given out to people that didn't even really have to shoot, all they had to do was show up. Another 10 classes had only 2 shooters, and 6 more classes that had only 3 participants. All total, there were 40 classes with 5 or fewer shooters at Field Nationals last year and only 87 competitors in those 40 classes.
> 
> So to summarize, that's 40 Silver Bowls distributed among 87 shooters so nearly 1/2 of all the competitors in those classes collected Silver bowls
> Compare that to AMFS which had 86 shooters and only one got a Bowl, or SMFS with 59 shooters and only one Bowl.


I knew things were watered down, but good lord that's down right ridiculous.


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## JF from VA (Dec 5, 2002)

nestly said:


> Currently, you can find result for "some" events in the last few years, but I have no idea how to find results that are more than a few years old, or any NFAA records on their website?


Correct. A couple years ago when they launched a new NFAA website, they wiped out all the older records and scores.


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