# Dropping Animal Round?



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

pe3d said:


> I heard there is some talk of dropping the animal round for the pros and adding an international round, or something of that sort. Any body else hearing any of this?


It has come up many times before, and I do think, but I'm not certain that the animal round has been, sometime in the past replaced with an Expert Round (same field face, but scoring all the lines, i.e., 5-4-3-2-1. But with 6-ring scoring it would be the same ole thing, cuz those guys flat do NOT shoot arrows out past the identity line, so it would almost be a waste.


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## zenarch (Aug 3, 2002)

*Dropping animal round?*



pe3d said:


> I heard there is some talk of dropping the animal round for the pros and adding an international round, or something of that sort. Any body else hearing any of this?


The Animal round used to be a useless part of the Nationals. Now since the bonus spot, it's become the round that usually decides the winner of the tournament and is much more fun to shoot. I hope they keep it for everyone.
I would like to see the elimination of counting X's in all archery games. If it's a defined separate area it should have a point value. In the case of Field Archery, an X should be scored as a 6. In Vegas the baby X should be a score of 11. This gives you a chance to recover from a bad shot. Now as a pro in Vegas, if you shoot a 9 you may as well kiss your donkey goodbye. There' no way to recover that lost point. If you had an 11 ring you'd still be in play.
Joe B.


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

zenarch said:


> The Animal round used to be a useless part of the Nationals. Now since the bonus spot, it's become the round that usually decides the winner of the tournament and is much more fun to shoot. I hope they keep it for everyone.
> I would like to see the elimination of counting X's in all archery games. If it's a defined separate area it should have a point value. In the case of Field Archery, an X should be scored as a 6. In Vegas the baby X should be a score of 11. This gives you a chance to recover from a bad shot. Now as a pro in Vegas, if you shoot a 9 you may as well kiss your donkey goodbye. There' no way to recover that lost point. If you had an 11 ring you'd still be in play.
> Joe B.


I agree with Joe. That is what makes the Iowa Pro Am fun and interesting. I also would hate to see the Animal round go anywhere. I wish it was at more local shoots.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Those people who want the animal round to go away are not thinking about the clubs that put the tournament on . You need another range just for a few that might show up. those rules would have to be used at sectionals as well as Nationals. There may have been maybe 10 pros who came this week end. 

that is why a bunch of years ago, that it was changed to have every one shoot the animals. Remember that the pro division is just that. A division of the NFAA,just like the BB, BH, BHFS , & so on.


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

pe3d said:


> I heard there is some talk of dropping the animal round for the pros and adding an international round, or something of that sort. Any body else hearing any of this?



*ahem.
Back to the Original Posted Question ...

No. As a card carrying Pro I have heard nothing. This is the first I've seen of it.


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

zenarch said:


> The Animal round used to be a useless part of the Nationals. Now since the bonus spot, it's become the round that usually decides the winner of the tournament and is much more fun to shoot. I hope they keep it for everyone.
> I would like to see the elimination of counting X's in all archery games. If it's a defined separate area it should have a point value. In the case of Field Archery, an X should be scored as a 6. In Vegas the baby X should be a score of 11. This gives you a chance to recover from a bad shot. Now as a pro in Vegas, if you shoot a 9 you may as well kiss your donkey goodbye. There' no way to recover that lost point. If you had an 11 ring you'd still be in play.
> Joe B.


We saw this rule play out this past weekend Joe... In the Pro class you get an extra point for the X. 
By the end of Day 2 the 3rd place guy buckled down, shot a load of X's and made up a 14 point deficit to go all the way to 1st.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Don't care how it is done, but the rules should be for every one. There should be no separation for scoring between the divisions. It does cause animosity between the divisions. The pro division is the same as Bb, bh, fs & the rest . A division of the NFAA. 
they shoot much better & for money


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

....

The animosity is being created by you I guess then?.. Because I've heard of none Mike. 

#1 The rule was presented for the Pro's by the Pro's - with special provisions to allow for fair comparison. - The 50 or so Honored/elected members of the Board of Directors (who govern our ENTIRE organization) agreed that they thought it would be good for the game. We as pros did not just wave a hand and make it so... we asked, they approved.

#2 - you added your own separation right there at the end. They shoot for money, and when money is on the line, things change. Every game, every sport, every event... from cards to shuffleboard to chess checkers, baseball, football....and archery. When guys are paying their mortgage by shooting arrows. It's different.

It's not a level of disrespect because we ALL came through it, we all appreciate it, we all respect it. - and we ultimately respect EVERY division of the NFAA because without them there is no US. 
When you can grasp that.. you'll have a much better time Mike. It's not Us vs Them.. It's just an Us thing - We are Archers. Just like you. We should be united, as one.

By the way... there was a proposal this year to have the rest of the NFAA score the way the Pros do for Field. It was defeated handily. So... maybe Mike the leaders of the Org do want it to be different.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

chuck, I don't think you got what I was trying to say. I'm not trying to cause the animosity, because after spending more than 25 yrs sitting as a director & councilman I have heard it . Why do you think that the pros are shooting the animal round instead of the ID round like they used to. It used to be that to bridge the gap the pros used to shoot with the AM"s the first day at outdoor Nationals. Don't know what happened there. 
I really do have a grasp of things & I do have a great time. you make it sound like I have something against the pros, That couldn't be farther from the truth
well, we can continue this if you wish when we see each other. Meanings don't come across to well on the internet


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

Mike we go waaaay back so I get it... 

You just made it sound like we were trying to steer the ship and we are not. Not at all. 

As for the ID vs animal?... no clue. Before my time. Personally I dont care what round we shoot as long as it's the same for everyone. ID, Lake of the woods, animal... whatever. Just the same for all..it's easier and more fair to the clubs and volunteers.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i am not a card carrying pro that pays the fee,but i have a question: why do they only count the x at certain nfaa archery shoots,why not count the x a point all year long at all nfaa shoots including Vegas ?wouldn`t that make everything simpler ? and do it in all classes ? i wish some of the top pro`s would answer this question too !


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

Pete53 said:


> i am not a card carrying pro that pays the fee,but i have a question: why do they only count the x at certain nfaa archery shoots,why not count the x a point all year long at all nfaa shoots including Vegas ?wouldn`t that make everything simpler ? and do it in all classes ? i wish some of the top pro`s would answer this question too !


The key reason I voted for it was to try and pump some excitement back into the field game. We all know it's been on the decline. I felt having some opportunity or excitement to shake up the leader board might draw in some shooters that couldn't "clean it" but might pound some X's.

As for the other shoots... I think the excitement is there already. No need to change it up much. 
As for Vegas. It's not an NFAA shoot, and it's kind of exciting enough already.

Again, there was a proposal brought forward this year at the meeting to try this for all of NFAA Field rounds for all classes...but it was voted down.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FV Chuck said:


> The key reason I voted for it was to try and pump some excitement back into the field game. We all know it's been on the decline. I felt having some opportunity or excitement to shake up the leader board might draw in some shooters that couldn't "clean it" but might pound some X's.
> 
> As for the other shoots... I think the excitement is there already. No need to change it up much.
> As for Vegas. It's not an NFAA shoot, and it's kind of exciting enough already.
> ...


IMHO, the only 'bad' thing, in spite of everyone knowing the scoring system in advance, for the indoor Nationals, especially in the pro division, is that it has gotten to the point where if you miss an "X" (let alone shooting one in the blue), you are totally out of the event and stand zero chance. Sure, everyone knows it in advance, but 119X doesn't get you much. Going 360 scoring does nothing, because you end up with 11-15 guys with 720 anyways...so, "dropping an X" ends up with the same result...you are OUT of it. Now, I realize that inside out scoring on the "X-ring for 6 points would be hugely problematical, and inside out for a "7" would be about the same, too. Add to this that if we went inside out for the X to count or inside out for a "7", then fat shafts would be gone, and that would go over like a lead balloon.
This is why I suggested an "inner X' inside the existing X ring that if you touch the line on it, you get 7 points. This would allow a person than misses a couple of BIG X's to catch back up, much like missing the 5-ring on field allows you to catch back up if you shoot a lot of X's and get those extra points.

After thinking about the inside out thing; I can see many reasons why it wouldn't float. Too many problems with it. BUT...I see few reasons why an "inner X" or "Baby X" inside the current X-ring on the blue face for "7" wouldn't work? 7-6-5 for the white, in other words. Try it for PROS only and give it a shot? Heck at this point, I dunno. 
Threre is excitement, in the pros, yes...but you and I know there is a lot of frustration in dropping ONE X in 120 shots and having zero chance of recovery, too. Just cuz it has been that way for like forever doesn't make it right. Doing the same ole thing the same ole way and expecting different results? 
Not sure about having this across the board indoors and outdoors however. I think the fear of yet another debacle like the 1976 target change is still in the minds of the Directors and Councilmen.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

yes i kinda like the 7-6-5 ideal,at least then the guy who has a high x count but missed a 5 by a 1/16 of an inch just might have chance otherwise he might as well pack it up. i have seen a 300 30x shot by person who ended up in third place over the 4th place person who shot a 299 53x .the person with the300- 30 x was lucky really not a good shooter who ended up in 3rd place ! so yes with the 7-6-5 you do or could bring some new excitement to scoring in archery.i say let the pro`s try it i bet broadwater,chance and cousin may have done better if this was in place the last few years


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

field14 said:


> IMHO, the only 'bad' thing, in spite of everyone knowing the scoring system in advance, for the indoor Nationals, especially in the pro division, is that it has gotten to the point where if you miss an "X" (let alone shooting one in the blue), you are totally out of the event and stand zero chance. Sure, everyone knows it in advance, but 119X doesn't get you much. Going 360 scoring does nothing, because you end up with 11-15 guys with 720 anyways...so, "dropping an X" ends up with the same result...you are OUT of it. Now, I realize that inside out scoring on the "X-ring for 6 points would be hugely problematical, and inside out for a "7" would be about the same, too. Add to this that if we went inside out for the X to count or inside out for a "7", then fat shafts would be gone, and that would go over like a lead balloon.
> This is why I suggested an "inner X' inside the existing X ring that if you touch the line on it, you get 7 points. This would allow a person than misses a couple of BIG X's to catch back up, much like missing the 5-ring on field allows you to catch back up if you shoot a lot of X's and get those extra points.
> 
> After thinking about the inside out thing; I can see many reasons why it wouldn't float. Too many problems with it. BUT...I see few reasons why an "inner X" or "Baby X" inside the current X-ring on the blue face for "7" wouldn't work? 7-6-5 for the white, in other words. Try it for PROS only and give it a shot? Heck at this point, I dunno.
> ...


Isn't the point not to miss? Give second, or more, chances for those that miss? Why? I remember a few top pros, meaning the top pros based on consistent top 3 finishes, talking at Lancaster the first year the lucky dog rolled out, and they all said they wouldn't shoot in it because they shouldn't be given a second chance for blowing it. So why do it more?


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

they are counting X`s in the summer ,so why do it in the summer in some nfaa shoots ? and if they miss why not tell them your done get off the line ? the reason you do it is for excitement and the spirit of the game of archery that`s why it should be done . maybe more people would get involved in archery if you do the X count thing. look at some of the classes in the NFAA now that have poor scores and few shooters in them,should they get rid of those classes too with scores of under 300 ? or even 250 ? no we need all shooters and all classes. the lucky dog is kinda a neat thing for those archers.why do all who want to join the pro ranks allowed ,most may never win a big event its for the excitement, so why not give them a another chance it will probably not change alot in who wins, but it will make some kuckle more too. if you always shoot 300 60x and some do they need a bigger challenge in archery.


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

Pete53 said:


> they are counting X`s in the summer ,so why do it in the summer in some nfaa shoots ? and if they miss why not tell them your done get off the line ? the reason you do it is for excitement and the spirit of the game of archery that`s why it should be done . maybe more people would get involved in archery if you do the X count thing. look at some of the classes in the NFAA now that have poor scores and few shooters in them,should they get rid of those classes too with scores of under 300 ? or even 250 ? no we need all shooters and all classes. the lucky dog is kinda a neat thing for those archers.why do all who want to join the pro ranks allowed ,most may never win a big event its for the excitement, so why not give them a another chance it will probably not change alot in who wins, but it will make some kuckle more too. if you always shoot 300 60x and some do they need a bigger challenge in archery.


Didn't say get rid of any classes. But for those that don't shoot a 300-60x game, what's the point of adding a point? To artificially inflate a score to feel good? And I don't think they should count x's in field either. How many 560's have actually been shot at Nationals? How many the year before? The year before? A couple maybe. 120x in Louisville.. how many pro's made the shoot off? Some of the best in the country, arguably world, dropped one, or more. So apparently there is still a challenge. But reward misses with a second chance? Doesn't make any sense to me. Wins, shootoffs, prizes, money, ect.. should be to those who didn't miss, which is what I thought the point of a precision sport was. But that's just me.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

yep i do see what you are saying but there is two sides to this, perfect score X`s don`t count as a point which is the old way and now which in some NFAA archery shoots they are counting X`s as a point. but like i said: so a guy shoots 300- 30x makes alot of little mistakes,another guy shoots a 299 55x makes one bigger mistake .i have seen this happen. using the X as a point might be right or wrong but it should not be used sometimes ,personally i like the X used as a point .


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## FV Chuck (Dec 11, 2004)

I'm just thinking bigger picture here... 

Indoor participation, not a problem "generally"... lots of full lines, lots of people.
Outdoor Field... yeah not so much.
So. How do you fix it?
Possibly small tweaks here and there to try and encourage people to try and come back. ... or keep it the same and watch it die a slow death.

It's all about trial and error to make the customer happy. The customer in this case are the shooters. Just try and do what they ask within reason to keep them happy and they will keep coming back. Thats all. Simple. Easy.

The indoor rounds that have added the X are liking it, the Marked 3-D thing also seems to be taking off in some areas. Maybe more orgs should do that as well.

I know and respect the purity of the game, but I also want it to continue.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

food for thought : just maybe counting the X as a point all year long in all classes including pro ,just maybe it will encourage more people to shoot summer Nfaa archery events?? it also does make it more simple " X counts as a point all year " not well does the X count in this shoot as a point or just an X ? kinda confussing for some. scoring the same all year pro`s and amatuers,it also gives the amatuer or customer to see by his score how he rates against the pro`s too .but i too want to see archery grow and simple is the answer.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

back to dropping the animal round i hope that it never gets drop,i kinda enjoy walking with the other archer`s and sometimes they are close friends its just more fun !


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