# Critique my form?



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form? 
One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Yours is the first "how's my form" pic I can't see a single thing wrong at first glance!


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## Monkeybutt2000 (May 7, 2009)

Draw a bit too long.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Looks like your within 1/4 to .5 inch of being VERY SOLID


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Maybe 1/4 long at most. I think you would be more solid if your feet were another couple of inches apart. I learned to not use that much heel of the hand in the grip. If you went to a medium wrist it might take up that 1/4 slack.


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## Flatwoodshunter (Feb 3, 2013)

Looks good, if you are shooting good, I would not change a thing. Nice looking Bow also.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

I hinestly dont know anything about your form or anyone elses for that matter. I have looked at alot of these hows my forum threads and Nuts and Bolts is good enough to help everyone out. The thing that i found interesting about your thread is...no one told you what kind of picture is needed for a good evaluation, yet you have a perfect picture right down to the tape on the wall. I have to laugh to myself how so many adults come on...are told what kind of pic is needed and yet they just dont get it. GOOD FOR YOU young lady. I am sure help will be on its way soon and good luck to you. P.S. Your forum looks perfect to me. How are you shooting?


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

Nutz is going to tell her to use the door frame for the next pic and then tell her her bow shoulder is too high I'd bet a dollar.


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## JDUB007 (Jul 2, 2014)

Looks pretty darn good. Maybe only thing I see is slightly leaning back at waist. A product of draw length?? I don't know or might just be you need to practice standing up a little straighter.


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## cadethearcher (Jul 28, 2014)

Bring your elbow down a hair. it won't make much of a difference though.


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## Hutch77 (Mar 5, 2013)

I agree your form looks good. Your way above most how's my form threads. If anything your draw length is a touch to long, but like most said maybe 1/4 of an inch. Your bow shoulder could just be fatigued from shooting, when I shoot a lot for extended periods mine will get fatigued, it's normal. (but you may need to rest it) And kudos to you for taking the proper picture, head to toes, level line on the wall, standing up straight (although you might be leaning backwards just a touch from the slightly too long of a draw) Nice job. And your grip looks great, that's usally never right in the how's my form threads.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form?
> One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!
> View attachment 2111276


Hello LadyBowhunter12.

What kind of shooting do you do?
How often do you shoot each week?

If your bow shoulder feels weak,
is your bow shoulder just SORE from shooting lotsa arrows?
or would you describe your "weak bow shoulder" as more than "sore" and actually hurts you?

Does your shoulder feel "weak" towards the end of practice sessions?
or does your bow shoulder feel "weak" all the time, during your practice session?

If your bow shoulder feels WEAK, towards the middle or towards the end of your practice session,
how it your bow shoulder affecting your group size,
your miss pattern?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form?
> One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!
> View attachment 2111276


If you can take pictures of your practice target (arrow groups)
when your bow shoulder is NOT feeling weak...

and
then,
if you can take pictures of your practice target (arrow groups) in the target
when your bow shoulder feels weak..

I can give you better advice.

What distances are you usually shooting?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form?
> One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!
> View attachment 2111276


Your shooting posture is better than many many adults here on this forum.

Are you working with an archery coach?

I do not want to step on the toes of your archery coach.


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## jvan97 (Dec 7, 2010)

Ncbuckbass you owe us all a dollar


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form?
> One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!
> View attachment 2111276


I would suggest a finger sling
or a bow sling, so you don't need to worry about dropping your bow...after the shot.

The bow sling or finger sling
will allow you to relax your bow hand,
cuz the bow sling or finger sling will hang onto the bow for you...after the shot.


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## Tkd-0331 (Feb 5, 2011)

Holy smokes! Babysitting must pay well these days.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form?
> One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!
> View attachment 2111276


Since you appear to be MORE of an advanced shooter,
if you have a way to take a video of the next time you are practicing your shooting

this will help me figure a way to help your bow shoulder FEEL Stronger.

The best way is to use a tripod (beats an adult trying to hold the camera phone still).
IF you can have the camera phone on a tripod,
on the same shooting line as you are standing on...

try to have the camera phone lens at about your shoulder height
and put the tripod far enough away,
so that I can see the floor and your shoes
and all of you head to toe...exactly like this photo (you do BETTER than most adults...for following instructions)

so I can see and study your bow follow through,
and
so I can see and study your release elbow follow through reaction.

I look to see if your head has a recoil reaction (head is motionless AFTER the arrow fires...or if your head/upper body swings backwards a little).

I study lots of little things
in the video...

when I work with more advanced shooters.

I actually do freeze frame work, on the video clips,
my more advanced students send me for analysis.

The video is the best way for me to study how to make your bow shoulder FEEL stronger,
during the shot....

and all the way through the end of your training sessions.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Could some experts on here give me some advice on my form?
> One thing that doesn't feel comfortable is my bow shoulder. It feels like it is weak. I want to find a way to make it feel stronger in the shot if possible. I'm sure there will be some other advice too. Thanks!
> View attachment 2111276


I have another tool I use,
to analyze your shooting technique.

I call it my STRESS test.

So,
if you have room in your garage,
I need you to setup a target at YOUR shoulder height.

DUCT tape shooting line only 2 yards away from the target.

YUP, really short distance.

FOR my STRESS TEST,
we only use ONE arrow.

Could be a full size bullseye target.

Could be a simple sheet of cardboard, and a sharpie pen cross hair.

The cross hair is only for aiming purposes.



You stand on the 2 yard shooting line
and you fire the ONE arrow.

WHERE you hit is not important.

That is not what I study for my student's stress test photos.

Hang up your bow
and then, pull out your arrow.

Back to the 2 yard shooting line.

Now,
fire your ONE arrow again, take your time,
and aim at the same aiming point as last time.

You do this back and forth for a total of 30 shots.

SOME of my ADULT students do very well, with my 2 yard stress test.



SOME of my ADULT students do not do so well, with my 2 yard stress test.



The hole pattern will tell me about your WEAK bow shoulder.

IF you like
give this a try.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

jvan97 said:


> Ncbuckbass you owe us all a dollar


Ya...i knew i should of taken that bet....dang it.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

You are doing well Missouri girl. Very impressive. What poundage are you pulling?


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the encouraging words! 
I measure my draw length from middle of my neck to the last crease in my wrist. When I do that, I get right on 25". After playing with my DLs, I found that 25 1/8" holds very very well. So from how I measure it is a little long and that's why I have it long. I am willing to try new things though!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

chevman said:


> I hinestly dont know anything about your form or anyone elses for that matter. I have looked at alot of these hows my forum threads and Nuts and Bolts is good enough to help everyone out. The thing that i found interesting about your thread is...no one told you what kind of picture is needed for a good evaluation, yet you have a perfect picture right down to the tape on the wall. I have to laugh to myself how so many adults come on...are told what kind of pic is needed and yet they just dont get it. GOOD FOR YOU young lady. I am sure help will be on its way soon and good luck to you. P.S. Your forum looks perfect to me. How are you shooting?


Thanks! I've seen couple threads like this so I tried to get everything close. Well this is my first year shooting indoor and so far I love it. I usually shoot 3D but I'm enjoying indoor just as much. I've been scoring in the upper 290s in 5 spot and tonight I shot Vegas for the first time and scored 432-19x. I'm loving this stuff. I'm pretty addicted haha


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello LadyBowhunter12.
> 
> What kind of shooting do you do?
> How often do you shoot each week?
> ...


This last year I have been doing local 3D shoots and I'm going to be doing ASA this year. I also started indoor league at my bow shop for the first time and I love it. We shoot 5 spot and we shot a Vegas round tonight.

I shoot every Saturday and Sunday and usually Tuesday's. Grandma is letting me shoot in her barn so I'll be able to shoot alot more now 

It's hard for me to explain what I'm feeling in my arm but I'll try to explain: 
It isn't weak like from lack of strength.
I have read that you want your bow arm to be strong like a 2x4 of wood. I don't feel like it is at that point. It feels like my shoulder is scrunched up and that I am aiming the bow with just my forearm and this makes my pin start to move quick all over the white of a 5 spot. 

BUT my shot seems to start strong, my pin movement begins slow and steady in the x. 

So, I start strong, then probably 2-3 seconds into the shot, my arm starts to relax or something and then the pin starts to move radically. 

This occurs randomly throughout shooting sessions but it doesn't happen every shot. And these shots do mess up my pattern if I don't let down. So this is why I think it is a form issue rather than being tired. But I have been wrong before...


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> If you can take pictures of your practice target (arrow groups)
> when your bow shoulder is NOT feeling weak...
> 
> and
> ...


Okay I can do that. I really honestly only shoot 20 yards this time of year..


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Your shooting posture is better than many many adults here on this forum.
> 
> Are you working with an archery coach?
> 
> I do not want to step on the toes of your archery coach.


No sir, I don't have an archery coach really. I just have good people at the shop that help me out. I was hoping you could help me out when I posted this thread..


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Since you appear to be MORE of an advanced shooter,
> if you have a way to take a video of the next time you are practicing your shooting
> 
> this will help me figure a way to help your bow shoulder FEEL Stronger.
> ...


Okay so I just got done shooting league at the shop and I saw this comment. The shop is pretty bright so I thought I could take one before I had to go. So I have a rough video that someone took bc we didn't have a tripod. I shot exactly how I have been shooting without changing anything, YET, from suggestions. Would you like me to post it here? Or email? I can send it anyway that is best for you! Thanks


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> I have another tool I use,
> to analyze your shooting technique.
> 
> I call it my STRESS test.
> ...


Sounds like a fun, challenging drill.. I'll get on that and show my results


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

fletched said:


> You are doing well Missouri girl. Very impressive. What poundage are you pulling?


I'm pulling 41 pounds with my target setup and 50 with hunting!


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## JP61 (Jan 29, 2010)

Congrats to you young lady!..... This is one of the coolest threads I've read on here in a long time! :set1_applaud:


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I'm pulling 41 pounds with my target setup and 50 with hunting!


The shop you have been going to has guided you well. Listen to nuts&bolts, he is very qualified to help you work out the bugs. Most likely just a little change in your form will make an improvement. Those little changes can be hard to detect. Sometimes a tweak in the draw length or a change in the stance. You will get all kinds of opinions and that can lead to confusion so stick with n&b and he will help you chase it down. But be prepared to read, he likes to type a lot. lol


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

JP61 said:


> Congrats to you young lady!..... This is one of the coolest threads I've read on here in a long time! :set1_applaud:


I am very impressed with her. This is going to be very interesting to see how she progresses with this. She has good potencial(spelling).


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

I'm impressed she can pull a 50 pound hunting cam!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Oh and I have also had Padgett on here help me out too!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Tkd-0331 said:


> Holy smokes! Babysitting must pay well these days.


What's that suppose to mean?
I could only afford that bow bc my shop let me be a shop shooter lol But still lots of long hours working though


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Okay so I just got done shooting league at the shop and I saw this comment. The shop is pretty bright so I thought I could take one before I had to go. So I have a rough video that someone took bc we didn't have a tripod. I shot exactly how I have been shooting without changing anything, YET, from suggestions. Would you like me to post it here? Or email? I can send it anyway that is best for you! Thanks


Your choice.

My email is in my signature.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> No sir, I don't have an archery coach really. I just have good people at the shop that help me out. I was hoping you could help me out when I posted this thread..


Then,
the good people at your shop
have been ALL coaching you extremely well.

Well done.

The weak shoulder,
depending on what I see in the video...

makes me worry a little bit.

You are shooting pretty high poundage,
so with good solid form/pulling technique,
you should be ok.

THIS is why I need to see the video
to analyze HOW you get to full draw...

to see if this is affecting your bow shoulder
and/or your release side shoulder.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Then,
> the good people at your shop
> have been ALL coaching you extremely well.
> 
> ...


Video emailed!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> This last year I have been doing local 3D shoots and I'm going to be doing ASA this year. I also started indoor league at my bow shop for the first time and I love it. We shoot 5 spot and we shot a Vegas round tonight.
> 
> I shoot every Saturday and Sunday and usually Tuesday's. Grandma is letting me shoot in her barn so I'll be able to shoot alot more now
> 
> ...


Your analysis is excellent.

You are 100% correct.

When I study your video,
I will analyze the angles of your bones, in your arm
in relation to your backbone.

Angles of bones, and strength of bones, and how various bones and muscles work together,
is what I used to do...working on experimental medical devices. There are certain angles that work better
for the joints.

So,
HOW you pull the bow to full draw,
can be very efficient (use less battery power)
or
can be very in-efficient (use MORE battery power).

EACH shot, we all start with a particular amount of "battery power".

I look at your follow through reaction on the bow arm side,
I look at your follow through reaction on the release arm side
and
I study your shot timing, cadence, rhythm...and look for places to "conserve" battery power

so you have more energy to complete the shot, so your shoulder (both side) stay STRONGER through out the shot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Video emailed!


Let me know if you want your video freeze frames posted here
or if you want me to send to you only.

That way,
you can decide which analysis photos you want to share.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Oh and I have also had Padgett on here help me out too!


There are a few on here who can help and Padgett is one of them. I would suggest to listen to one at a time as not to get overloaded. I have a little shop here at my house and do string building and bow tuning mainly for the local people. Some of these guys have form issues and have shot that way for years. I can help them shoot better but I don't go beyond a certain point. My ability to coach goes to a certain point. After that, there are more qualified teachers than me.
You are a different case though and have a very good foundation and need good advice as not to set you back but move you forward. Knowledge is the key. Not only on what to do but on not what to do. Learning the what to do's and not what to do's will help you be able to keep yourself shooting in top form. You are at the point now that you need good instruction from someone who is qualified to coach. So be careful on who you take instruction from. Make sure they have the experience and knowledge to help you.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Let me know if you want your video freeze frames posted here
> or if you want me to send to you only.
> 
> That way,
> you can decide which analysis photos you want to share.


You can put it all on here so maybe others can learn too


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

When you're beating Erika Anschutz one day, give a shoutout to archery talk so we know who you are!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> You can put it all on here so maybe others can learn too


Ok.

So,
I have found several places where you can "conserve" battery power,
and keep your bow shoulder STRONGER in the shot.

Technically,
this is called bio-mechanics,
where we study the effects of the angles of your bones
and how that affects your joints...and the muscles attached to your joints.

So,
your shoulder FEELING weak through the shot...your body is giving you a HINT.

Namely,
your bow shoulder would really like it better
if you made some TINY adjustments to HOW you get to full draw.

The change is very subtle,
hard to spot at FULL video speed.

The change is very EASY to see
when doing a FREEZE frame review.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> You can put it all on here so maybe others can learn too


So,
just like using a crow bar to move something VERY heavy...

there is a range of angles
where the crow bar gives you a LOT of power, to move something ready heavy.

If the angle for the crowbar is TOO STEEP, too VERTICAL,
the crowbar is not very helpful...you cannot move the heavy object.

If the angle for the crowbar is TOO FLAT,, too much close to horizontal
the crowbar is also not very helpful...you cannot move the heavy object.

So,
your bow shoulder is telling you that your bow shoulder
does not like very much
the angles for your bow arm...when you pull the bowstring, getting to full draw.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Your ready position.

SOLID stare at the target.
EXCELLENT.

HEAD position is good.
Chin height is good.
Head/neck rotation is solid.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Freeze Frame #2.

YOU are in the PROCESS of getting up to final LIFT height.
THIS freeze frame is the exact moment your TARGET sight is DEAD LEVEL.

THIS is important,
to know the FEEL of two level collar bones,
the target sight DEAD LEVEL.

ARROW is downhill, cuz you are using a drop away arrow rest.

You know what rest you are using.

SOME reading this thread (newbies) may be confused...why the target sight extension arm is LEVEL,
but the arrow is downhill.

Bow shoulder is HAPPY, at this point of your draw cycle.
No wasted battery power YET.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Freeze Frame #3.

You have reached the TOP of the lift for the riser.

Some folks call this SETTING the bow shoulder.

NO comment on this style.

Bow shoulder is still fine, bow shoulder is still happy,
no wasted battery power YET.



Bowstring is still FORWARDS of your elbow joint.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Freeze Frame #4.

STart of the problem.
Increased the elbow bend between Freeze Frame #3 and #4.
So,
the LEFT upper arm is NO longer in LINE with your two collar bones.

When the TWO collar bones are MORE UPHILL
and the LEFT side upper arm bone is LESS uphill

a MIS MATCH in angles

your bow shoulder will LET you know,
your bow shoulder will FEEL WEAKER during the shot...

"wasted" battery power.



BLUE line is the BOW SIDE upper arm bone ANGLE.

The collar bones are ANGLED MORE uphill.

NOT good.

*KEEP the entire bow arm at the SAME angle
as the two collar bones,
and your BOW shoulder will be MUCH MORE HAPPY.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Freeze Frame #5.



Definite mis-match between collar bone angle (MORE uphill)
and the bow side upper arm bone angle (less UPHILL)
and the pulling of the bowstring
is going to LOAD the arm muscles
and especially your bow shoulder...

so,
now we are into FULL wasting battery power mode, now.

IF we keep the two COLLAR BONES AND the entire bow arm in LINE..(full extension..in line alignment)
then,
the BONES do all the work
and your bow SHOULDER sees MUCH MUCH LESS work....

more efficient use of your "battery power"
during the draw cycle.

The BEND in the bow arm elbow
has DROPPED the bow side upper arm angle TOO MUCH

so,
your BACK muscles are working to pull back the bowstring
AND

*cuz you are DROPPING YOUR ELBOW (bow side) TOO FAST
now your BOW SHOULDER is also WORKING HARD,
when your bow shoulder involvement during DRAWING the bow should be ZERO.*


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Freeze Frame #5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow very cool. It makes total sense of what is happening with that part of my form. Crazy how you find small things like that, that has caused me big issues. I'll be working on this tomorrow for sure. And I am still all ears for anything else you see that could use some work


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Freeze Frames #4, #5 and #6.

You are rocking your head/upper body backwards,
between Freeze Frame #4 (body is vertical)



and Freeze Frame #5 (starting to move head/upper body backwards)

and Freeze Frame #6 (head and upper body definitely moved backwards).

Now,
it's only about 1-2 INCHES
but this is enough
to cause you to DROP the elbow (bow side ) even MORE
and to make the MIS-MATCH between your collar bones (MORE uphill)
and your bow side upper arm (LESS UPHILL than collar bones)

so,
your bow shoulder is getting WEAKER by the instant.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Wow very cool. It makes total sense of what is happening with that part of my form. Crazy how you find small things like that, that has caused me big issues. I'll be working on this tomorrow for sure. And I am still all ears for anything else you see that could use some work


The SHORT version
is to MINIMIZE extra movement.

If your FINAL bow hand/arm height is THIIIISSSSS much above the floor

don't bother LIFTING/raising the BOW HAND/ARM a full 12-inches HIGHER than FINAL shooting height.

KEEP the two collar bones and the ENTIRE BOW arm in a STRAIGHT LINE,
ALWAYS...

from the moment you START to pull the bowstring/d-loop and arrow nock

to half way to full draw (resist the URGE to drop the elbow sooo fAST) and PRETEND you have a loooong broomstick TIED to both armpits, and the TOPS of your shoulders
AND your entire BOW ARM....

to FULL draw
and keep the LEFT ARMPIT at 90 degrees.

DO NOT let the elbow DROP below shoulder joint height.

IF you do,
if you allow the LEFT ELBOW to DROP lower than LEFT SHOULDER JOINT height...

your BOW shoulder will LET YOU KNOW
that your BOW SHOULDER is no longer happy.

FROM the Easton Target Arrow Catalog.



Can you SEE how HER elbow is NOT dropped down BELOW shoulder height?

Now,
you will see FOLKS here on ArcheryTalk
say SO and SO pro shooter
drops his or her elbow down LOWER than shoulder height.

I say, I could not care LESS about what a pro shooter does.

YOU say your bow shoulder FEELS WEAK through the shot.

YOu are correct.

YOUR bow should DOES feel WEAK during the shot.
YOU want YOUR bow shoulder to feel STRONGER through the shot.

Your analysis is DEAD ON 100% correct.

IF we make a minor change to HOW you get to full draw,
you will have MORE battery power remaining
to FINISH a STRONG shot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Wow very cool. It makes total sense of what is happening with that part of my form. Crazy how you find small things like that, that has caused me big issues. I'll be working on this tomorrow for sure. And I am still all ears for anything else you see that could use some work


Another example of the STYLE of shooting posture I teach.



Notice that even for a DOWNHILL shot,
this shooter has the TOPS of the shoulders, the collar bones
and the ENTIRE bow arm...

EVERYTHING is parallel to the arrow.

I can guarantee you that this female shooter,
her bow shoulder feels VERY STRONG during and after her shot.

THIS style of shooting posture is ONE style.

YES,
there are successful, VERY VERY successful PRO shooters who shoot BENT elbow style,
either a LITTLE bit bent elbow style
or
MORE than a LITTLE bit BENT elbow style.

BUT,
I am analyzing YOU.

YOUR bow shoulder feels WEAK through the shot.

YOU want your bow shoulder to feel STRONGER through the shot.

Sooo,
I provide the analysis
and some HINTS
to HOW to make your bow shoulder feel STRONGER through the shot.

YOur analysis
YOUR GUT instincts will take you a LONG ways in your shooting career.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Think of your two collar bones as DRAW BRIDGE PART 1.

THINK of your bow side upper arm as DRAW BRIDGE PART 2.

ANYTIME the angles for DRAW BRIDGE #1 and #2 do not match...your BOW shoulder is going to feel WEAK through the shot.



At this point,
your bow shoulder is saying OW....getting weaker.

MAJOR mis-match between DRAW BRIDGE #1 (two collar bones are STILL UP-HILL)
and
the bow side upper arm is getting CLOSER to horizontal

and

*your head / upper body has swung backwards 2-3 inches.*

LEFT armpit angle is now LESS than 90 degrees.

So,
rather than LIFTING the bow SOOOOOO SKY HIGH
and then,
TRYING to come back DOWN to final bow arm height...

I would have you try and raise bow arm no more than 2-inches ABOVE final shooting height

THEN,
start pulling back.

IF you cannot handle the weight,
by ONLY lifting the bow arm/hand 2-inches above FINAL shooting height...

DROP the draw weight.

*TRY really HARD
to keep the LEFT armpit at 90 degrees
and your BOW shoulder will be MUCH stronger through the ENTIRE shot

and your sight picture
will be MUCH MORE solid (hold more steady).*

Now,
if you can keep your HEAD motionless
(no more rocking backwards)

then
your sight picture will be REALLY REALLY rock solid
(no wasted motion)
no more boat rowing with the upper body.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I would work with you on posture
and customizing your bow draw length
IN between module sizes...

so you can keep your exact same anchor points,
and
with the change,
with the CUSTOMIZING of the bow draw length IN between module sizes

the armpit angle would automatically change
and your bow shoulder would also automatically FEEL stronger.

THE RED boxes
show you HOW much rowboat motion
your upper body goes through.

BURNS battery power.


----------



## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

This is good info..


----------



## MiniJCW (Apr 27, 2014)

Quote: 
I would have you try and raise bow arm no more than 2-inches ABOVE final shooting height

THEN,
start pulling back.

This action would make the shooting judges very happy also. The way i am thinking of what you have stated is that you cut out any chance of SKY DRAWING. If you maintain no more than 2 inches above final full draw height you have a very flat draw action indeed.
Thank you for the info this has been a great thread to watch. Time to go and find some flat drawing archer videos to watch now.
Cheers.


----------



## Guardian Shoote (Jan 11, 2007)

Great thread awesome OP


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Another example of the STYLE of shooting posture I teach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I understand. She has a sturdy looking form to me. That IS what I'm wanting to achieve and what I really think I need.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> I would work with you on posture
> and customizing your bow draw length
> IN between module sizes...
> 
> ...


How do you measure draw length? 

I measure from middle of my throat to the last crease in my wrist, before I get to my hand. 
This is with arms straight out and level. 

When doing it this way, I get 25" dead on. 
But I found that my pin likes to hold low at that DL.

So I played around with it and found that 25 1/8" holds very very well. 

Last night after shooting Vegas, the pin seemed to want to go on the right side of the yellow. So I'm not sure if that's part of my draw length or something else...

And I usually know my shooters but who is that lady archer in the last picture. Maybe I can find a video of her drawing and that might help as well.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> How do you measure draw length?
> 
> I measure from middle of my throat to the last crease in my wrist, before I get to my hand.
> This is with arms straight out and level.
> ...


You TEST draw length in my system.

Simple

20 yards.

FIRE a group of arrows.

I did just that for my DVD, that I am preparing.



NOT great.

$400 used target rig from ArcheryTalk Classifieds.
I wanted to show what happens when you TUNE draw length to the 1/4-inch IN BETWEEN module sizes.

Only a front target stabilizer.
No side rod.

LimbDriver Micro Elite Drop Away arrow rest.



So,
HOW do you TEST draw length with MY system?

Simple.

TAKE ONE of your arrow
remove ALL The vanes
remove the BASE of the vane as well.

NOW fire the bareshaft also at 20 yards
and AIM at the BULLSEYE.



I promise,
I aimed at the bullseye. I had one fella ask why my BARESHAFT miss all the way to the LEFT??
CUZ,
I am right handed,

CUZ, my draw length needs to grow LONGER than spec.

My USED target bow is IN SPEC,
with a 29-inch draw length.

So,

HERE is what happens with a BARESHAFT,
when the draw length is TOO SHORT for a right handed shooter

HERE is what happens with a BARESHAFT,
when the bow draw length is adjusted to fit you CORRECTLY

HERE is what happens with a BARESHAFT,
when the bow draw length is too long for you.




YOUR release arm is no different than a weather vane
YOUR release arm is no different than a compass needle
YOUR release arm is no different than a laser pointer.

The BARESHAFT flies WHERE-EVER your elbow to wrist (release side) is POINTED.

HERE is an EXTREME example,
from a How's My Form thread from YEARS ago.



Can you see WHY this fella's bareshafts will ALWAYS miss to his RIGHT of his FLETCHED arrows?

Can you see WHY this fella's fixed blade broadheads will ALWAYS miss to the RIGHT of his field points?

Pretty obvious, huh?


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
FIRE a bareshaft at 20 yards,
and I am pretty sure your bareshaft will MISS to your right of your fletched arrows.

MY bareshaft missed to the LEFT of my fletched arrows about 8-inches at 20 yards.

THAT seems like a lot,
but the FIX is very small.

SInce I am right handed,
since MY bareshaft missed to the LEFT 
about 8-inches LEFT of fletched arrows in the bullseye (9-10 ring)

the FIX is to grow the draw length IN BETWEEN module sizes, about 1/4-inch LONGER.

HERE is what happened NEXT.








BUT
my arrows Are HITTING TIGHTER

BUT
my arrows are now missing HIGH and RIGHT.

No worries.

When your arrows group THIS TIGHT
do not move your arrow rest..


ONLY move the sight WINDAGE
ONLY move the sight ELEVATION.



There.

ALL fixed.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> How do you measure draw length?
> 
> I measure from middle of my throat to the last crease in my wrist, before I get to my hand.
> This is with arms straight out and level.
> ...


I apologize.

I do not know her name.

I was searching for examples of what I consider excellent shooting posture
for a downhill shot.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> How do you measure draw length?
> 
> I measure from middle of my throat to the last crease in my wrist, before I get to my hand.
> This is with arms straight out and level.
> ...


Measuring bow draw length
from throat to your hands

is a very old method,
many recurve teachers were taught this way to measure folks this way.

I have my own methods,
and I ALWAYS test my students
to refine the bow draw length
to get BETTER results.

Your pin is holding low,
because your bow draw length needs work...

FINE tuning
to get you to your MAXIMUM, true accuracy potential.

You have solid technique,
but
you have MUCH more potential.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> How do you measure draw length?
> 
> I measure from middle of my throat to the last crease in my wrist, before I get to my hand.
> This is with arms straight out and level.
> ...


Your pin missing to right
has SEVERAL causes.

Poor fit of your bow draw length
is part of the reason.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> FIRE a bareshaft at 20 yards,
> and I am pretty sure your bareshaft will MISS to your right of your fletched arrows.
> 
> ...


Very neat! I'll have to try this at the shop today when I have a press to use. 

Until then I'm going to go to the barn and work on making my arms a broomstick and do the stress test. 

Thanks for the advice so far. You are a big help to all us!


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> I have another tool I use,
> to analyze your shooting technique.
> 
> I call it my STRESS test.
> ...


Here is my results from the Stress Test with NO form corrections YET.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

What distance?


LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Here is my results from the Stress Test with NO form corrections YET.
> View attachment 2111739


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

RCR_III said:


> What distance?


2 yards, 30 arrows


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

That's great shooting! But with it only being a single hole, there's no pattern or spread to critique float and execution. Go back to say, 5 or 7 yards and perform the test again. 

The one hole you have at 2 yards is great! It just shows the form and execution are very solid already. The stress test is designed to show a pattern of your float and execution to see what shape things take on your target face. I think it'll be safe to say you're an advanced shooter. So this means you'll have to keep going back further to see where things start to open up and see what patterns develop.


LadyBowhunter12 said:


> 2 yards, 30 arrows


----------



## duckdawg1 (May 4, 2010)

Nice job.


----------



## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

Great information as always Alan!! Right when you think you know archery get your mind blown cause there is soo much to learn!


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## Anchor Sight (Oct 17, 2005)

I'm not an expert on form but then I don't use a peep sight and shoot from where I am most comfortable and accurate. Which shoulder feels weak? The position of your peep sight will influence your form so I would try drawing the bow without aiming through the peep sight, just aim at something with your front sight and see where your eye is positioned in relation to the peep. You may need to move your peep to get in position for best form. If you do a little research you will find many videos that may help to answer your question.


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## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

You are going to be a force to be reckoned with very soon.


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## Bow Predator (Oct 19, 2010)

Tagged.


----------



## Jabr357 (Apr 2, 2013)

Way to go young lady; you are awesome! and great thread! I'm sure in the future you will teach us a thing or 2.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Here is my results from the Stress Test with NO form corrections YET.
> View attachment 2111739


PERFECT.



So,
we now DOUBLE the distance,
rest up your shoulder....

take your time on the stress test,
make sure you feel 100% recharged for EACH shot.

Post the distance on your NEXT stress test.

I suggest 4 yards.

The test is more difficult with EACH longer distance,
and I analyze how your pattern changes, with each test.

Based on how the pattern changes,
then,

I make suggestions for adjustments.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> 2 yards, 30 arrows


Most folks train BACKWARDS,
and train at TOO far a distance.

I train folks FORWARDS
and start at a BRAIN dead simple distance,
like 2 yards



EVEN for ADVANCED shooters like you...

for a reason!!!!

I want to build POSITIVE mental imagery.

We build on SUCCESS.
We build on ONE arrow hole performance.

We slowly increase your training distance
to PUSH your limits for ONE hole performance...FARTHER and FARTHER and FARTHER.

I want to keep you at ONE hole performance,
and we INCREASE your training distance
consistent with how fast your SKILLS improve.

So,
do NOT goto 5 or 7 yards right now.

Goto 4 yards,
and take your time.

*SINGLE HOLE accuracy is EXACTLY what I was looking for from you.*


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

One of my more advanced students.



BUT

*it's JUST a single hole.*

That's correct.

THIS student of mine was READY for my ULTIMATE test.
I knew he was ready.

I wanted my STUDENT to know how far he had progressed.

THIS test was at his CURRENT training distance. No, not 2 yards.

hehehehehehehehehe

HIS assignment,
was to fire his ONE arrow again and again and again,
over MULTIPLE days
and to KEEP GOING, until he MISSED.

That's right.

His objective,
was to try to break through PAST 100 consecutive ONE arrow hole shots, in the SAME HOLE.

After multiple days (he went three days in a row)
he hit 140 shots and stopped.

He realized the PURPOSE of this TEST.

He KNOWS how far he has come.

YOU are not ready for this test yet.

THIS is just a HINT at some of my TRAINING methods
and
WHY I want you to KEEP training at EASY distances for YOU.

We GROW the distance
where you maintain SUPER DUPER SOLID
one arrow hole performance.

MOST folks shoot the full 20 yards
and never break through hitting a 300 score.

I start my students at 30X on the Vegas target
and condition their mind to EXPECT ONE arrow hole performance
ALWAYS.



AFTER 60 shots...these are the LAST 5 arrows.



TARGET face after 60 shots.

ONE arrow hole accuracy training.

*Sooo
NEXT stress test

ONLY 4 yards.

Let's see what we get.*


----------



## MYMAXXIS (Mar 20, 2011)

Great thread....and he gives this all away for free.... That's more impressive thean the OP..who is impressive in her own right...


----------



## BoHunter0210 (Oct 3, 2011)

Great thread! OP how old are you? I have 15 year old daughter that I would love to show this to...hope to inspire her to shoot her bow more...


----------



## MYMAXXIS (Mar 20, 2011)

I am curious to see any discussion around growth. Both my boys really struggled when they hit their growth spurt..... It was ugly


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MYMAXXIS said:


> I am curious to see any discussion around growth. Both my boys really struggled when they hit their growth spurt..... It was ugly


I was talking to ghostbait exactly about this yesterday.
Last summer, his son grew 6-INCHES!

Since your boys are growing,
you have to constantly check for draw length SWeet Spot.

Do my draw length test,
and custom tune the draw length to the 1/4-inch
EVEN if this means in between draw length modules sizes.

Your RESULTS will be rather OBVIOUS,
when you find the draw length sweet spot...for each of your sons.


----------



## Smokeymtnbow (Jun 17, 2013)

At what point should you do the draw length sweet spot? After form cleaned up and shooting at 2 4 8 yards? Will 1/4 show up at 8 yards or more at 20 yards?


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> PERFECT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I will do it! I think I'll be able to try it again tonight at 4 yards. 

The test is kind of like a game to me. I really enjoy it! And yes I agree and understand that I should move back slowly and progress as I succeed, which I like doing. 

I also worked on my bow arm and head movement a little. I did have some strong shots that felt very good but I can tell I still need work on it. 

I NEED to film myself to see how it looks. So I'll have to do that after the 4 yard test as well.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> One of my more advanced students.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that's absolutely amazing. Since I'm on Christmas break now I'll have time to really put some work in on this. Great training exercise for sure!


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

BoHunter0210 said:


> Great thread! OP how old are you? I have 15 year old daughter that I would love to show this to...hope to inspire her to shoot her bow more...


I turned 18 last September! I started when I was 16 years old. I think I got most of my addiction from when I started shooting 3D and then hunting. If she hasn't shot 3D, I would highly recommend it to get the addiction going


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

Tagged to see how you make out! I have the same problem sometimes with my bow shoulder and am going to look into these suggestions as well.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Smokeymtnbow said:


> At what point should you do the draw length sweet spot? After form cleaned up and shooting at 2 4 8 yards? Will 1/4 show up at 8 yards or more at 20 yards?


Depends on your skill level.

Be bold, and try it.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Wow that's absolutely amazing. Since I'm on Christmas break now I'll have time to really put some work in on this. Great training exercise for sure!


This is one of BearArcher1980's training targets.
He worked with me COMPLETELY online for about a year, on and off.

I trained him, with these EXACT same techniques.

He posted a How's My Form thread several years ago.
We started at 2 yards. He had much LESS skill than you do...he was completely self taught,
and had only fired arrows in his backyard. 

FIRST stage of his training was shooting techniques. Form, stance, alignment, use this muscle, relax that muscle...the basics
which YOU already have mastered.

Then,
his Second Stage was to train his BRAIN, to get BearArcher1980 conditioned to EXPECT the arrow to DRILL out the middle,
so this became NORMAL at longer and longer and longer distances.

He won the State Championship 11 months later...or thereabouts.
That was his goal on DAY 1, on our first phone call.

SUPER dedicated student.

He fired a 300 60X in league, around month 11 from the time we started working together.
Then, he did it the 2nd time, the next week.
Then, he did it the 3rd time, the 3rd week at league.

Soo, his buddies put up the 3 spot target, on week four. BearArcher1980 had not tried the Vegas face before.
He fired a 300 23X, first try. He called me up, and asked if that was a "a good score".

I said yes, now get back to your regular training routine.

hehehehehehehehehehe.

He is the exception. MOST folks do not go from a self taught shooter in their backyard
to a 300 60X shooter in 11 months, and most folks do not fire a 300 23X on the FIRST try at indoor league.


Another thread,
a fella asked the DIFFERENCE between creep tuning
and BAREShaft tuning.

Well,
this is a training exercise I developed for BearArcher1980.

This is BARESHAFT TRAINING.





I train my students to TURN off their brain,
and
rely on their training..."muscle memory"....you get the idea.


----------



## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I turned 18 last September! I started when I was 16 years old. I think I got most of my addiction from when I started shooting 3D and then hunting. If she hasn't shot 3D, I would highly recommend it to get the addiction going


Very impressed with your shooting. Be fun to watch you develop over the next several years. 

Is that Hideaway Archery in Carthage by chance?


----------



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

You wouldn't be from up around troy would you and been being coached by a guy named mike?


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

bgreenlee said:


> Very impressed with your shooting. Be fun to watch you develop over the next several years.
> 
> Is that Hideaway Archery in Carthage by chance?


Yup that's it


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

573mms said:


> You wouldn't be from up around troy would you and been being coached by a guy named mike?


No but a guy named Mike helps me a lot haha


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> FIRE a bareshaft at 20 yards,
> and I am pretty sure your bareshaft will MISS to your right of your fletched arrows.
> 
> ...


Here are my fletched group with a bare shaft. Heard the bareshaft hit the arrows so I shot it by itself too
View attachment 2112001

View attachment 2112002


This is with form corrections! I also have new video that I will email. I think it looks better. It feels better for sure.


----------



## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Yup that's it


I grew up in that area, well, down the road into Oklahoma. We shot a lot of 3-d over that direction though. There used to be a great 3-d range at the Old Cabin Shop there a long time ago. 

You're a very impressive shooter. Can't wait to see where you are in the archery world in a few years. Best of luck to you.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

bgreenlee said:


> I grew up in that area, well, down the road into Oklahoma. We shot a lot of 3-d over that direction though. There used to be a great 3-d range at the Old Cabin Shop there a long time ago.
> 
> You're a very impressive shooter. Can't wait to see where you are in the archery world in a few years. Best of luck to you.


Thanks a lot! I know of the old cabin shop. Couple years ago they put a 3D shoot back over there


----------



## jschins (Apr 1, 2010)

Lots of great info in this thread. Alan always seems to out do himself. If I knew a 1/4 of what Alan knows I would be even more dangerous... ; ) keep up the hard work LB12


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## HOGG-IT (May 5, 2009)

Very informational thread. Tagged to see what's next


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

lots of uninformed comments, so far.....
your draw length is a bit long and your stance is too closed. opening your stance will turn your body towards the target and help develop a better condition of tension across the top of your back and shoulders, that will help your bow shoulder support the shot. it will also force you to shorten your draw length, which will also develop better tension in your rhomboids, for back tension.
go on line and do a search for pics of the top pros stances, you will see that most of them have a more open stance. 
if your coach thinks that your stance is good, as it is, I would be suspicious of your coach's qualifications as an "archery coach".
the good thing is that you are young and are interested in establishing good habits early in your shooting.


----------



## Mbmadness (May 19, 2009)

Learning alot on this great thread . Ladybowhunter your getting some great advice . Practice smart and don't over do it . Pace yourself . I just read this whole thread . Can't wait to see the end result .


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12.

Copying PRO shooters.
Cookie cutter advice.

I do not recommend cookie cutter, just copy a pro advice.

You had a specific request.
Your bow shoulder...not a SOMEBODY else's bow shoulder...

YOUR bow shoulder feels WEAK through the shot.
YOU want YOUR bow shoulder to feel STRONGER through the shot.

The OPEN stance will cause MORE strain on the supporting muscles for YOUR bow shoulder.

So,
your body will tell you if the changes we make to your shooting posture
are GOOD changes or NOT so good changes.

NEVER blindly copy some "pro shooter's" posture,
NEVER blindly copy some "pro shooter's" set the shoulder STYLE...
cuz, they are a PRO shooter.

ALWAYS find the "style" of getting a bow to full draw, that works for YOUR body
ALWAYS find the "style" of getting a bow to full draw, that makes YOUR bow shoulder feel STRONGER during the shot.

This is basic common sense.

Patient says....

DOCTOR
DOCTOR
my EYE hurts every time I drink coffee.

DOCTOR says...
then,
take the spoon out of your coffee cup.


Moral of Story.

A POSITIVE change for YOU, for LadyBowhunter12
will make YOUR bow shoulder feel STRONGER during the shot.

A POSITIVE change for YOU, for LadyBowhunter12
will make YOUR STRESS test results be ONE hole performance at LONGER and LONGER distances.

BLINDLY copying some "pro shooter's" posture will do you ZERO,
will have you spending LOTS and LOTS of time...trying this, trying that.

Rather than just COPYING this popular shooter or that popular shooter...

understand the HOW's and the WHY's your....YOUR bow shoulder feels WEAK during the shot
and
when you understand the HOW's and the WHY....YOUR bow shoulder feels WEAK during the shot

KNOWLEDGE is power

then,
you save TIME and can make small adjustments
to keep your EXCELLENT shooting

your MUCH MUCH BETTER than most shooters performance (one hole performance)
and we will work STEP by STEP to extend the distance that you can get ONE hole performance.

OPEN stance does NOT work for everyone...cookie cutter advice.

Cross body tension is only ONE style,
and also does NOT work for EVERY one.

As we continue your PUBLIC training...step by step..

I want to monitor how your bow shoulder FEELS during the shot.

The changes I have recommended to you,
are designed to make YOUR bow shoulder feel STRONGER.

We will monitor the effectiveness of the changes
by your SHOOTING results,
the STRESS test results.

EVERYTHING should always be TESTED.

GOOD advice gets you BETTER RESULTS.
STRESS TEST pattern stays TIGHT.
YOUR Bow shoulder FEELS stronger...(less damage to shoulder).


NOT so good advice, YOU do not get BETTER results.
STRESS test pattern gets worse.
YOUR Bow shoulder feels WORSE....(shoulder is being damaged...in cumulative, tiny and increasing amounts).


This is just common sense.

BASED on thousands of TEST results...
your 2 yard results are REALLY GOOD.

We will test how the changes are affecting you
at 4 yards.

SMALL steps.
ON purpose.


----------



## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Marked


----------



## Wichhart (Oct 2, 2014)

A lot of pro shooters do shoot open stance. I'm sure some shoot closed. Some shoot hinge some shoot thumb. Some even shoot triggers. Some shoot straight arm some shoot bent arm some lean some don't it's all in what works best for you. U have to be willing to experiment. And keep in mind that when u change the first shot aren't going to hit the x. Gotta give it some time.


----------



## Wichhart (Oct 2, 2014)

I know the feeling your having with your shoulder. I tried shooting straight for awhile. But had a terrible float. So I bent my elbow just a tad and brought my anchor back just a bit. Float got better but I defiantly felt it in my shoulder. I'll prob go back to straight arm but I need to get a press to play with my draw and hopefully fix the float


----------



## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

Good information as always Alan!! 

I am no pro but cannot tell you how much the "it feels right" applies. I just just started shooting indoor and when I started strugled and still do but I am starting to know based on feeling when its right and since raised my scores and feel solid and much stronger through out my shot! 

Excited to see more end re****s! Good shooting!


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> One of my more advanced students.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's my 4 yards, 30 shots. Two holes with X's in them are NOT apart of the test...


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It is good to see a good young lady really dive into shooting with the same desire to learn all the little lessons and not just pull a trigger, she told me that we needed to get together next summer and shoot some 3d so I am looking forward to shooting with her.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> LadyBowhunter12.
> 
> Copying PRO shooters.
> Cookie cutter advice.
> ...


I totally understand that. 
After watching a lot of World Archery on YouTube, I have noticed that none of the shooters have the exact same form. There seems to always be something unique with each archer's form or the way they shoot. This made me realize that I can try new things but I know it might not work for me.


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

Padgett said:


> It is good to see a good young lady really dive into shooting with the same desire to learn all the little lessons and not just pull a trigger, she told me that we needed to get together next summer and shoot some 3d so I am looking forward to shooting with her.


If she's anything like the young lady I coach she'll clean your clock. LOL.

I'm following this thread intently and learning more on how to be a better coach.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Padgett said:


> It is good to see a good young lady really dive into shooting with the same desire to learn all the little lessons and not just pull a trigger, she told me that we needed to get together next summer and shoot some 3d so I am looking forward to shooting with her.


Yea we really should! I could use some pointers on 3D stuff if you'll let me know your secrets lol


----------



## catchin' (Dec 9, 2014)

Tagged for my daughter just starting to shoot. Will order you video Nuts&Bolts.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I totally understand that.
> After watching a lot of World Archery on YouTube, I have noticed that none of the shooters have the exact same form. There seems to always be something unique with each archer's form or the way they shoot. This made me realize that I can try new things but I know it might not work for me.


Each shooter has to do the detective work to find out what will take you to the next level of shooting.
Your shoulder issues...bow shoulder, I want to monitor how your shoulder does.

Shoulder damage is a slow process, so adjustments to your technique,
can slow down or eliminate any further damage to YOUR shoulder.

You very OBVIOUSLY have significant experience, and shoot well.

So,
I see what it takes to extend your accuracy, your one hole shooting accuracy, AND CONSISTENCY
to farther and farther distances...

one step at a time.

For the more serious shooters,
I do NOT do a wholesale, tear your current shooting style apart, throw it away and start over from scratch.

I try to analyze your current shooting technique
and make small REFINEMENTS.

BUT
when we get into THIS body part hurts territory..

then,
I made any and ALL adjustments to fix that RIGHT away.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

catchin' said:


> Tagged for my daughter just starting to shoot. Will order you video Nuts&Bolts.


Thank you.

Send me an email.

[email protected]

1) need first and last name
2) need AT username
3) need full shipping address

no money at this time.

I need to upgrade my website for e-commerce,
but
I re-program my business website
AFTER I finish building 3 MASTER DVD discs.

Trying to stay organized,
and build my massive list of addresses
so I can pre-print the labels

while the replicating company is doing their work.


----------



## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Here's my 4 yards, 30 shots. Two holes with X's in them are NOT apart of the test...
> View attachment 2112498


Curious to know where your shots started? First couple hit central and then you drifted left and right? Start high right then drift lower/left, etc?


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

stromdidilly said:


> Curious to know where your shots started? First couple hit central and then you drifted left and right? Start high right then drift lower/left, etc?


Well the fourth shot was the bottom left one 

Shot 27 was the top right one. 

Around the middle of the session, around shot 10-20ish, I was nailing the middle. 

Then towards the end I started hitting to the right a little bit.


----------



## Dmack (Apr 5, 2011)

Tagged


----------



## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

Young lady, you are very impressive! We'll be hearing more from you I'm sure!!!


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Well the fourth shot was the bottom left one
> 
> Shot 27 was the top right one.
> 
> ...




Photo has been rotation corrected.

*Well the fourth shot was the bottom left one.

Around the middle of the session, around shot 10-20ish, I was nailing the middle. 

Shot 27 was the top right one. 

Then towards the end I started hitting to the right a little bit.*


4th shot...collapsing bow shoulder...we can get into the reasons WHY you sometimes collapse your bow shoulder (bow shoulder pops up).


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Photo has been rotation corrected.

_Well the fourth shot was the bottom left one.

*Around the middle of the session, around shot 10-20ish, I was nailing the middle. *

Shot 27 was the top right one. 

Then towards the end I started hitting to the right a little bit.
_
The purpose of my 30 shot stress test is MULTI-PURPOSE.

*My stress test gets you into a rhythm.*
MY stress test is DESIGNED to fatigue you.
MY STRESS test is designed to FORCE you to slow down.
MY stress test will show ME, if and where you have mental focus breakdowns.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Photo has been rotation corrected.

_Well the fourth shot was the bottom left one.

Around the middle of the session, around shot 10-20ish, I was nailing the middle. 

*Shot 27 was the top right one. 

Then towards the end I started hitting to the right a little bit*._

The purpose of my 30 shot stress test is MULTI-PURPOSE.

My stress test gets you into a rhythm.
*MY stress test is DESIGNED to fatigue you.*
MY STRESS test is designed to FORCE you to slow down.
*MY stress test will show ME, if and where you have mental focus breakdowns.*


As you fatigue,
you lean backwards

there is a reason you do this

related to your leaning backwards as you fatigue,
you will ALWAYS miss to your right.

Cuz your hips are tilted FORWARDS
and you compensate by leaning BACKWARDS...

the high right miss is going to be a recurring pattern for you,

that is,
until we make the NEXT change, minor TWEAK.

How's that sound?

All without VIDEO analysis.

IF we were working together,
I would CONFIRM my suspicions,
with a running video for your 4 yard test.

WE stick at 4 yards,
until we GET this TEST pattern
back to ONE arrow hole performance.

When you MASTER 4 yards,
then,

ONLY THEN,
when you GRADUATE from 4 yard shooting school...

then,
we go to the NEXT level...the NEXT distance.

See how this works?

hehehehehehehehe


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

THIS is where you are currently,
at my 4 yard shooting school.



I have FULL confidence
I can get you to THIS level.



140 shots in a row,
over MULTIPLE days....

and at MORE than 4 yards.

hehehehehehehehe

STEP by STEP.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

TIME and AGAIN...

folks ask me HOW can ONLINE training work?

THIS is how.


----------



## Mbmadness (May 19, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> TIME and AGAIN...
> 
> folks ask me HOW can ONLINE training work?
> 
> THIS is how.


I wish i lived closer to you . Would love to get some lessons . Can you pm me on costs to get your online coaching ?


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> TIME and AGAIN...
> 
> folks ask me HOW can ONLINE training work?
> 
> THIS is how.


Because it is performance driven and result based analysis. It's like a detective deconstructing a crime scene.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> THIS is where you are currently,
> at my 4 yard shooting school.
> 
> 
> ...


Okay sounds good. I want to have a better pattern at 4 yards. 

I believe I can get to that point in my shooting too with your help! 

After shooting awhile today with the straighter arm, I found that my elbow seems to be weak now. It's shakes quite a bit during the shot like it is taking all the pressure instead of my shoulder. 

Shoulder does feel good. Now it's my elbow that seems to be weak.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Okay sounds good. I want to have a better pattern at 4 yards.
> 
> I believe I can get to that point in my shooting too with your help!
> 
> ...


Shoulder was my primary concern.

Shoulder better is a good sign.

I need you to send me a video of you doing another 4 yard stress test.

IF the shot setup does not FEEL perfect to you,
let down.

If a little voice in your head says..."something is not quite right"...listen to the little voice in your head
and let down.

BREATHE in
BREATHE out
wait until you FEEL like your batteries are 100% charged again..

before you try again.

The goal of the 30 shot stress test,
ONE of the goals
is to also TEACH you MENTAL focus, MENTAL discipline.

So,
to FIRE 30 GOOD shots...

you might pull back the bow 30 TIMES, and fire 30 GOOD SHOTS...MUCH later in your training.

For now,
most likely,
you will need to pull back the bowstring, the d-loop and the arrow maybe 32 times, to fire 30 GOOD SHOTS
or

maybe you will need to pull back the bowstring, the d-loop and the arrow maybe 33 or 34 or more times.

The goal is to TRAIN your BRAIN
to be MORE sensitive to the FEEL of the PERFECT shot....which you saw the results of...during the MIDDLE of your 4 yard stress test.

Then,
your LITTLE voice becomes LOUDER and MORE SKILLED
at getting YOU to listen to your LITTLE voice in your head.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> Because it is performance driven and result based analysis. It's like a detective deconstructing a crime scene.


Perfect explanation.

Forensic analysis.
A criminalist looks at a crime scene. Clues. Evidence. Splatter patterns. 

I look at holes in a sheet of cardboard.

I look at videos of my more advanced students
and I look at trajectories (bow side)
and I look at trajectories (release side)

I analyze compass directions of the hips/pelvis

I analyze compass directions of the release side forearm
I analyze compass directions for the collar bones

I look at alignment of the forearm and upper arm, in relation to the collar bones.

LOTS of clues
when I do the FREEZE frame analysis.

YES,
a VIDEO I study the VIDEO frame by frame
and look for the changes in weight balance...

coronal plane and sagittal planes (left to right.....and....front to back).

EVERYTHING is test based...the tweaks, that is.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Okay sounds good. I want to have a better pattern at 4 yards.
> 
> I believe I can get to that point in my shooting too with your help!
> 
> ...


So,
next video
I will focus my analysis on what is going on with the BOW ARM elbow....I'm figuring you mean BOW arm elbow.

TAKE multiple videos, as needed,
to record the entire 30 shot session,
cuz I want to see how your shot process, posture changes,
as you progress through the stress test.

I will also check timing, cadence, rhythm
to see how your cadence and rhythm changes,
as you progress through the 30 shot test.

*I need your camera phone or video cam
on a tripod...

or sitting on a box*

to do a PROPER freeze frame analysis.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> next video
> I will focus my analysis on what is going on with the BOW ARM elbow....I'm figuring you mean BOW arm elbow.
> 
> ...


Awesome! I'm going to give myself a break for the rest of the day and then film myself tomorrow morning. 

I will make sure to get a good angle with the camera on a tripod as well.


----------



## Zalmo (Oct 6, 2014)

@nuts&bolts, in all the pictures she posted, she is shooting with a closed stance. In fact in the freeze frames from video, the front leg (her left leg) was slightly towards right more so than the back leg. Good form starts with feet position, for it supports the upper part of your body, and that causes the early onset fatigue she described.
It was painstaking to read this thread honestly.
So LadyBowhunter12, I can only contribute to your quest to improve your form, by giving you material to read, from United States Olympic training program as it is presented today by World Archery. Please lookup the basics of form starting with foot positions, try each stance on your own, and learn which one fit's you best. Form basics remain the same for recurve archers and compound archers so do no be confused by the fact that you see recurve bows in the pictures.

http://www.worldarchery.org/UserFil.../Coaches_Manual_Lev2/12_Recurve_Technique.pdf


----------



## juststartin08 (Jun 20, 2008)

Tag


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Zalmo said:


> @nuts&bolts, in all the pictures she posted, she is shooting with a closed stance. In fact in the freeze frames from video, the front leg (her left leg) was slightly towards right more so than the back leg. Good form starts with feet position, for it supports the upper part of your body, and that causes the early onset fatigue she described.
> It was painstaking to read this thread honestly.
> So LadyBowhunter12, I can only contribute to your quest to improve your form, by giving you material to read, from United States Olympic training program as it is presented today by World Archery. Please lookup the basics of form starting with foot positions, try each stance on your own, and learn which one fit's you best. Form basics remain the same for recurve archers and compound archers so do no be confused by the fact that you see recurve bows in the pictures.
> 
> http://www.worldarchery.org/UserFil.../Coaches_Manual_Lev2/12_Recurve_Technique.pdf


NTS is only one system.

I am very well aware of the bio mechanics of an open stance, neutral stance and a closed stance.

"painstaking".

hmmm.

Switching LadyBowhunter12 to an Open Stance,
as a cookie cutter solution
has many side effects...

none positive.

Better to learn the How's and Why's for each stance,
rather than prescribe NTS for all.


----------



## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

in for learning!


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

elkbow69 said:


> in for learning!


Excellent.

Soooo,
I'm waiting for the first person
to explain why..

LadyBowhunter12
adopted a "slight" closed stance
to shoot as well as she does.

There is a reason,
but probably not what you think.

Going step by step

forensically

to address the RESULTS of her shooting...

rather than a BLANKET follow this or that style.

Bow shoulder not feeling STRONG through the shot.
Made a modification to make the bow shoulder get BETTER, feel STRONGER through the shot.

NOW,
bow arm elbow is "shaking".

NEED to watch new video, to see what is happening
what is the ROOT cause for the elbow "shaking"....
when the elbow shakes...first shot...or 30th shot.

need to watch the follow through reaction, bow side and release arm side.

I see MULTIPLE things that LadyBowhunter12
could TRY...

but IN STAGES
and in GOOD TIME.

There is a method to the madness.

A process going on.


----------



## Zalmo (Oct 6, 2014)

"NTS is only one system"
So which one is the other system?


----------



## MIKEY CUSTOM-G (Oct 5, 2002)

You look great. I'd say your front shoulder is low and your back shoulder and arm are high. If you could balance them out, I think you might see more consistent shots while also distributing holding stress equally thereby spreading your strength out and possibly making your arm feel less stress.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I forgot to post new picture of how I look after getting arm straighter. Will help to show my progression with the suggestions from Nuts&Bolts!


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Ill bite,,,,IMHO opinion She's shooting a slight closed stance for these reasons:

she has the most stable bio-mechanical body position, foot to shoulders wise, for HER body.
she "FEELS" the most stable in this stance
she "SHOOTS" the best in this stance
she has developed that stance to suit HER style of shooting,
she has that stance because it is the most COMFORTABLE for HER! 
and last but not least, ARROW HOLES DONT LIE! LOL

did I hit close Alan?

Also just like REO leaning back some,,, He simply shoots the best and feels the best that way, he said so himself.


----------



## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Hmmm, just spit balling here but maybe elbow feeling a bit weaker/shaky due to recent change in position of the elbow height during the draw / completion, causing a bit more stress on the triceps muscle??? Muscle maybe not quite yet "learned" what its supposed to do. I dunno?
Something to do with DL???


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

A closed stance will change the load location on the bow shoulder. Both shoulders and bow arm are more inline.


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## c5mrr270 (Mar 3, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Soooo,
> I'm waiting for the first person
> ...


Just a guess, but you said her draw length was probably slightly too long. By closing her stance she is drawing farther acrossed her body.


----------



## kramster (Jan 19, 2014)

In to learn. Thanks for all you do Nuts&Bolts! You helped me get started and i learn every time I read your stuff. Great analysis!


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

c5mrr270 said:


> Just a guess, but you said her draw length was probably slightly too long. By closing her stance she is drawing farther acrossed her body.


Multiple compensations are going on.

LadyBowhunter12 use the nock of arrow on THROAT 
with front of hands on the front of arrow to select her bow draw length.

OLD method.
Got her in the ball park.

So,
she needs to work on stance discipline...

she is sometimes in a neutral stance,
and sometimes in a slight closed stance.

If you look very closely
she has multiple compensations going on at once
to try and USE up ALL that "extra" draw length

leaning the upper body back
hips biased towards the forward leg/ankle

dropping the bow side upper arm downhill, from bow shoulder to bow side elbow

these are all classic compensations to FORCE fit the shooter's body into a bow where the draw length setting
is NOT quite the sweet spot for her.

Hence,
the bow shoulder may collapse on occasion

so,
she was getting away with it at 2 yards...
but,
the inconsistencies in upper body alignment
are showing up at 4 yards.

So,
she is going to shoot, re-shoot the 4 yard test
and try a few things...

going to ZERO in on the bow arm elbow
and fix that up FIRST...

and continue to monitor the bow side shoulder

and
work on stance consistency.

She tells me that she usually shoots for neutral
and did not realize for the video #1,
she ended up in a slight closed stance.

So,
she is going to focus on stance consistency.

We are building a foundation,
block by block

pay a little more attention here and there.

I see MULTIPLE things
but...

MY goal is to train the shooter in the FORENSIC process,
HOW to spot things
so they LEARN root cause analysis...so they learn by ABSORPTION.

EVERYTHING in good time.

LadyBowhunter12 is a "FEEL" shooter.

She wanted her BOW shoulder to FEEL Stronger during the shot.

Now, she is feeling some instability in the bow side elbow.

Gotta see how Video #2 turns out
and stomp out that "FIRE" as soon as we can.

Once we have the BASICS for structure locked down...

then,
gonna start attacking the TEST pattern.

FIX the CG (center of gravity)
get the angles to a better sweet spot
to INCREASE her stability from the beginning of the STRESS TEST...(more attention to the details of the STARTING position)
to INCREASE her stability during the middle of the STRESS TEST...(she gets into a roll and finds her rhythm....muscle memory takes over)

and to INCREASE her stability towards the END of the STRESS TEST....(this part is designed ON PURPOSE....to fatigue the shooter).

THE best tuning for any shooter
is towards the latter stages of my STRESS TEST
cuz...

any WEAKNESS in her foundation,
the CRACKS grow LARGER
and this is where I tune the shooter
and this is where I tune the BOW

so that the shooter's FOUNDATION is made MUCH MORE stable
so that the SHOOTER's bow is MUCH more forgiving.

LEFT-RIGHT misses are the HARDEST to diagnose the ROOT CAUSE...

cuz there are SOOOOO many possibilities, for the WHY.

The HIGH-LOW misses are DEAD easy to fix.

So,
her HIGH RIGHT miss,
towards the LATER stages of my STRESS TEST...

the HIGH is easy to FIX.

IN this case,
cuz she is sooo early in her training
the HIGH RIGHT misses

are also an EASY FIX.

I don't want to SPOON feed her ALL The answers.

I want to see if she can tell me what SHE thinks
is the ROOT CAUSE for the HIGH-RIGHT miss

and why she can NAIL, can POUND the middle
during the MIDDLE stages of the STRESS TEST

and see if she can tell me WHY she misses HIGH RIGHT...as she gets tired.

A process.

I have my reasons.

I end up with a MUCH stronger shooter,
when I train them...especially the CURIOUS ones.


----------



## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

Is her stance helping to preload her core muscles to build a firmer foundation.?


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

multi-target said:


> Is her stance helping to preload her core muscles to build a firmer foundation.?


Here is a pic n&b posted earlier in the thread. Even though the pic is about bareshaft shooting, the pic can be use to show the effects of shooting form. Maybe it will help you understand what he is trying to help her accomplish with experimental exercises. Finding her sweet spot for consistency and comfort.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

multi-target said:


> Is her stance helping to preload her core muscles to build a firmer foundation.?


LadyBowhunter12 has established a particular shot routine, her own system.

So,
I test her and identify areas for room for improvement,
based on the TEST results.

Fix the more important issues first.
She wanted her bow SHOULDER to be STRONGER in the shot.

Sooo, took steps to take care of that.

NOW,
she is experiencing troubles with the bow elbow, and some shaking,
so going to take care of that next.

These are symptoms of an underlying issue.

I know the root cause
but,
I want LadyBowhunter12 to learn root cause analysis.

She is delivering one hole performance at 2 yards,
but
is not quite there at 4 yards....
so,

there are areas where her foundation needs SLIGHT tweaking to get her UP to 1 arrow hole performance, consistency
at 4 yards.

Her stance is variable,
and needs a little bit more attention to "address"
how you set your feet for the shot.

So,
that is an area of focus for her tomorrow.

*She spotted that herself*

so,
I suggested a way for her to work on that.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

multi-target said:


> Is her stance helping to preload her core muscles to build a firmer foundation.?


Here stance is variable
and she did not realize...

but she was compensating for a root cause issue in her system.

There are multiple areas we will address,
but in good time.


----------



## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

Correct I understand the pic. But as stated earlier each individual has there own thing going on and some people find that if they preload there core a bit by being open or closed it gives the impression of a firmer base. And some people make it work. Not trying to step on toes I'm in this to learn from it and was just a question.


----------



## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm all in on this thread. I cant wait for DVD..


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

multi-target said:


> I'm all in on this thread. I cant wait for DVD..


LadyBowhunter12 is progressing nicely for today's practice session.


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> LadyBowhunter12 is progressing nicely for today's practice session.


Women are usually easier to coach than men. Women tend to listen and are more open to suggestions. They don't let their egos get in the way. Just as long as you don't make them mad!!!!


----------



## multi-target (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree on women easier to teach I taught my girlfriend to shoot n she is good for only her second year. She places in local tournaments n does well in state shoots ..


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

fletched said:


> Women are usually easier to coach than men. Women tend to listen and are more open to suggestions. They don't let their egos get in the way. Just as long as you don't make them mad!!!!


This has got to be the truest and most sensible statement I've read all day on AT.


----------



## rlong (Jan 12, 2011)

Tagged


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

4 yard test today! Getting a little closer.. Made a few small adjustments to hopefully get some improvement for tomorrow.


----------



## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

What did Nutsand Bolts suggest for todays results. Just curious because i am following this along and doing it myself. Your 4yd. group looks better than mine


----------



## squish2519 (Dec 14, 2006)

In for the learning. Love the forensic RCCA going on with the teaching of how and why each action (good or bad) affects the exercise at hand. Hang in there Ladybowhunter12 and you will become a very dangerous opponent.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

chevman said:


> What did Nutsand Bolts suggest for todays results. Just curious because i am following this along and doing it myself. Your 4yd. group looks better than mine


Right now we are still working on my arm to get it feeling strong. My elbow felt weak yesterday but today it felt real good.

I'm paying more attention to drawing the bow back correctly so I don't have my shoulder popping up and messing the shot. I think this is where i having some misses

Pretty much just small adjustments right now


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

chevman said:


> What did Nutsand Bolts suggest for todays results. Just curious because i am following this along and doing it myself. Your 4yd. group looks better than mine


To find out...


www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
for CUSTOM coaching.

I am working with LadyBowhunter12 with my CUSTOM coaching program.

ALL of $25 for a week of my time,
unlimited back and forth emails,
and analysis.

She learns VERY quickly.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Right now we are still working on my arm to get it feeling strong. My elbow felt weak yesterday but today it felt real good.
> 
> I'm paying more attention to drawing the bow back correctly so I don't have my shoulder popping up and messing the shot. I think this is where i having some misses
> 
> Pretty much just small adjustments right now


Bow elbow is SOLID in today's video.
Stance is very consistent...from shot to shot.

Consistency in stance is MUCH improved.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

chevman said:


> What did Nutsand Bolts suggest for todays results. Just curious because i am following this along and doing it myself. Your 4yd. group looks better than mine


LadyBowhunter12 has MUCH more potential.

Seriously.

Making incremental adjustments...a progression, on purpose.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Stress test is working, as planned.

FOCUS was very solid in today's video.
AS planned. Natural side effect of the training.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Training LadyBowhunter12 to see what I see...

so, she is getting a crash course
in my style of forensic analysis.


----------



## ColoradoNick (Oct 15, 2014)

I just finished a week with Alan also. Worth every penny! I'll be sending him another $25 soon!


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Three 30 shot Stress Test sessions so far.
Making SOLID progress.

Building a SOLID foundation, one brick at a time.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Stress test is working, as planned.
> 
> FOCUS was very solid in today's video.
> AS planned. Natural side effect of the training.


This is really exciting. I was getting frustrated that I wasn't getting one hole group yet.

Seems like this should be easy! NOPE! 

I'm bad at having patience with time between each shot and being picky at choosing which shot to shoot.

I can tell that I am going to HAVE to do this if I want to pass 4 yards ever.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> This is really exciting. I was getting frustrated that I wasn't getting one hole group yet.
> 
> Seems like this should be easy! NOPE!
> 
> ...


PATIENCE with time between each shot,
is another SIDE effect of the TRAINING...on PURPOSE.

hehehehehehehe.

I am TRAINING your MIND as well,
with my STRESS test training.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Today's result
at 4 yards,
with only ONE change.

NEW foundation.
ONE brick at a time.....on PURPOSE.





PROCEEDING to the NEXT STAGE...

with another BRICK in the FOUNDATION...
with ONE more tweak again.

NOW getting into moderately "ADVANCED" training.


Sooo,
HOW does ONLINE training work again?

EXACTLY like this.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Well,
Seeing some more improvement in my form today! 

Played a lot with draw length and d loop lengths. Lots of tedious work with making small adjustments and then testing them out. Think I found a very good match! 

Going to shoot 6 yards, 30 arrows for tomorrow's practice. 

Excited to see what's next for the process!


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

What exactly did you do to your draw length?


----------



## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

Very nice changes. You looking more upright and balanced.


----------



## DedDeerWalking (Dec 10, 2009)

This is my favorite thread right now!


----------



## ThomasC4 (Nov 18, 2014)

After reading this thread I am getting signed up for a NandB DVD for sure. 

I know next to nothing about the form issues he is talking about. I have always just shot the way it felt natural.
I can’t wait to see how this will help my groups. 

Excellent..

Train up a child in the way that they should go and when they are old they will not stray from it.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ThomasC4 said:


> After reading this thread I am getting signed up for a NandB DVD for sure.
> 
> I know next to nothing about the form issues he is talking about. I have always just shot the way it felt natural.
> I can’t wait to see how this will help my groups.
> ...


I am training LadyBowhunter12 to see how I see, what I see.
I give her the tools, to identify what to experiment with
to make her get BACK to a one hole pattern, at each training distance.

HOW, WHAT and WHY.
LadyBowhunter12 did the work, the experiments, and she ended up in THIS shooting posture,
NOT cuz it FEELS a particular way

cuz this posture gets her RESULTS...that she likes.

She learns VERY VERY fast.

Soooo,
we goto the next level, and I am providing some "extra" tools
to help her continue her experiments.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Keep it up, i really liked the way you looked so confident in the last picture you posted. I have made some of my biggest gains becoming a solid shooter during my indoor training in the winter instead of just taking the winter off so keep positive and get the most out of the time you are training.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Well,
> Seeing some more improvement in my form today!
> 
> Played a lot with draw length and d loop lengths. Lots of tedious work with making small adjustments and then testing them out. Think I found a very good match!
> ...


I need to get a camera like yours. My camera's lens is messed up and makes my belly look big. lol


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## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

Outstanding shooting and results Lady. What was the adjustment that you made which tightened your group up at 4? I see you went from vertical oval to horizontal oval to almost single hole. Was the change from vertical to horizontal and decrease in draw and was the change from horizontal oval (error) to almost one hole also a decrease? Thnxs in advance for your details


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

stoneywv said:


> Outstanding shooting and results Lady. What was the adjustment that you made which tightened your group up at 4? I see you went from vertical oval to horizontal oval to almost single hole. Was the change from vertical to horizontal and decrease in draw and was the change from horizontal oval (error) to almost one hole also a decrease? Thnxs in advance for your details


I am teaching her how to "franken-stein" a bow, out of spec.

Like she said,
draw length and d-loop
and LOTS of hard work....try an experiment, shoot test shots...

try another experiment, shoot more test shots.

I am providing custom coaching ONLINE....so, LadyBowhunter12 is going to provide a "taste" of her results
as we continue to take her shooting to higher and higher levels.

Her results. A time series.


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

Great thread.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> I am training LadyBowhunter12 to see how I see, what I see.
> I give her the tools, to identify what to experiment with
> to make her get BACK to a one hole pattern, at each training distance.
> 
> ...


Alan,
Is shot analysis like you did for LadyBowhunter12 covered in the DVD?
Thanks,
Allen


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

aread said:


> Alan,
> Is shot analysis like you did for LadyBowhunter12 covered in the DVD?
> Thanks,
> Allen


I teach in the DVD,
the "KEYS" that I am looking for.

I upgraded the DVD SIGNIFICANTLY in the "form" section/chapter.

The DVD started as a summary of my very first in person seminar, the first One I did at Hitaga Archery, in Iowa.

Was going to compress a 2 day seminar into a 1 hr DVD disc.
$25 USD plus mailing costs.

Based on questions, requests....from you folks here on AT...

I added Target Panic
I added a HUGE section on Form...

and the ONE hr DVD disc..has grown into an interactive menu (VERY pricey software to do this)
has grown into a 3 hr 37 minute 31 second DVD.

Do I cover the FRANKEN-stein work that LadyBowhunte12 is doing?

ABSOLUTELY.

Do I explain the WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR....in the How's my Form photos?

ABSOLUTELY.

GET your PRE-ORDERS in quickly.

MASTER DISC #1 has passed all logic tests, for the interactive menu.....ready for TEST BURN.
MASTER DISC #2 has also passed all logic tests, for the interactive menu....ready for TEST BURN.

NOW,
going to put the final touches on MASTER DISC #3.

PRE-ORDER pricing ends SOON.
I spent WAY WAY WAY too much money on this ONE disc effort...
which is now a full blown, MENU driven...3 DISC set.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

As the distance increases,
the SHOOTING requirements increase.......obviously.

We do detective work.
I teach LadyBowhunter12 my forensic techniques.

WE attack the TEST pattern.

As she graduates each shooting school,
I disclose the NEXT layer of the onion....what area to experiment with.

Here is where LadyBowhunter12 ended up,
at this LATEST stage of the 4 yd shooting school.

Her results. A time series.







My coaching style.

I do not give away the answers
and just say DO IT.

To train an "advanced shooter"...

you give her the TOOLS
then,
you let her DISCOVER where she is going to end up...appropriate to EACH stage of shooting school.

2 yards?
4 yards?

Yup,
EXACTLY.

A SOLID foundation. Like GRANITE.

I knew where LadyBowhunter12 would end up, at the end of 4 yard shooting school.

SHE got there on her own.

hehehehehehehehe.


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

Great thread.
Nice to see Alan doing some more advanced stuff. Must be a nice refresher for him too. ;-)

One thing I noticed though; Those are some LONG LONG Arrows!!! Sure, whatever works and this surely seems to work, but man, why not go 2-3 spines weaker and cut them 6 inches shorter... I get that heavy arrows are more forgiving and all that, but so are shorter arrows in general...


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Unicron said:


> Great thread.
> Nice to see Alan doing some more advanced stuff. Must be a nice refresher for him too. ;-)
> 
> One thing I noticed though; Those are some LONG LONG Arrows!!! Sure, whatever works and this surely seems to work, but man, why not go 2-3 spines weaker and cut them 6 inches shorter... I get that heavy arrows are more forgiving and all that, but so are shorter arrows in general...


Yes I know haha. 

This is my first year shooting indoor so I didn't have all the equipment.

So a good guy named Steve gave me his arrows to use. He shoots a recurve now so he didn't need them. 

I'm planning on getting some arrows of my own though. 

I'm pretty lucky to have great people at my shop to help me out!


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Unicron said:


> Great thread.
> Nice to see Alan doing some more advanced stuff. Must be a nice refresher for him too. ;-)
> 
> One thing I noticed though; Those are some LONG LONG Arrows!!! Sure, whatever works and this surely seems to work, but man, why not go 2-3 spines weaker and cut them 6 inches shorter... I get that heavy arrows are more forgiving and all that, but so are shorter arrows in general...


Fatter shafts are permitted in the USA in NFAA competition. They act as "line catchers". Most who experiment find that they score a few points higher with the fat shafts than with more typical shafts. We are allowed to use the 2712 aluminum's from Easton and carbons of the same diameter from Easton and other manufacturers. To get a dynamically weaker spine, these have to be longer and have heavy points. This is especially true with short draw lengths and low draw weight.

Hope this answers your question.
Allen


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## Michigan Dave (Dec 28, 2005)

Only the Shadow knows ...

This is a great thread, as many others have said previously. I feel like our grandparents must have, running to the radio (or computer in our case) to catch the latest installment of our favorite series. Keep the progress coming, LadyBowhunter12. We are rooting for you. Keep the training coming, Nuts&Bolts. you have our rapt attention.

Merry, Merry and Happy, Happy to all.

Michigan Dave


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Alan, Thank You for all that you do to make archery a better experience for all of us who choose to listen, AND learn. 
Cant wait for the DVD. 

LadyBowhunter12 is the perfect example of a student that has a combination of all learning styles. Doer, Thinker, Feeler, Listener. 

I see many a 300 30x in her future.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

A quickie lesson into "FRANKEN-STEIN" work on your bow
for RESULTS based tuning.



This is ME shooting a basic target rig (used bow from AT classifieds)...at 20 yards
to DEMONSTRATE why IN SPEC...is only for BEGINNING shooters.

For my ADVANCED shooters, I teach them how to FRANKEN-stein their bow.

So,
when I franken-stein this used AT Classifieds target bow,
IN between DL module sizes...

you can see my STARTING...IN SPEC...20 yard group size

then,
you see the PROGRESSION of my forensic analysis,
where I do DETECTIVE work...

where I fire a BARESHAFT,
while AIMING at the bullseye
and you see the result.

I am a right handed shooter
and NO....

the BARESHAFT does NOT miss left due to ARROW SPINE...

the BARESHAFT misses LEFT cuz I have an alignment problem...also known as a SMALL draw length issue.

Sure,
BEGINNERS can HIDE a draw length issue with YOKE tuning..

sure
BEGINNERS can HIDE a draw length issue with pushing the arrow rest to POINT the arrow CROOKED LEFT or CROOKED RIGHT.

For more ADVANCED shooters,
I teach them my FRANKEN-STEIN draw length techniques.

As I tune the draw length in TINY TINY amounts...
(PS...you can ONLY tune to your SKILL LEVEL)
(Your MILEAGE will ABSOLUTELY VARY, based on your skill level)

(in the pictures above, you see what happens to my BARESHAFT point of impact, with TINY changes in DL)

When I have my alignment correct...

which means, when I have my BOW draw length adjusted correctly
along with a few other DETAILS...

hehehehehehehehehehe

the COMBO of the FINE TUNING of the draw length (in between DL module sizes)
and those other FEW DETAILS.....

the GROUP size drops dramatically...
(COMPLETELY depending on the skill level of the shooter).

So,
you see my FLETCHED arrow group size CHANGE...

at 20 yards,

using my FORENSIC techniques....

you also see the CHANGES in LadyBowhunter12..her TEST results
and you can see the POSTURAL changes....which are a direct result...a SIDE EFFECT...of the "FEW DETAILS".

*For the "ADVANCED" shooters.*

hehehehehehehehehe


When you have groups THIS tight....

a simple Sight Elevation tweak
a simple SIGHT windage TWEAK...

gets you to HERE.




LadyBowhunter12 is BARELY scratching the surface
of my ADVANCED training program.

ONE brick at a TIME...to build a GRANITE foundation.

*I have MUCH MUCH more to teach her....as she graduates from EACH shooting school.
ALL in due time.*


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> A quickie lesson into "FRANKEN-STEIN" work on your bow
> for RESULTS based tuning.
> 
> 
> ...


We are only scratching the surface? 

I feel like I have already learned so much!
Can't wait to see what's next. Going to shoot my first 6 yard test tonight. Did some more playing with my draw length and I think I have got it perfect.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> We are only scratching the surface?
> 
> I feel like I have already learned so much!
> Can't wait to see what's next. Going to shoot my first 6 yard test tonight. Did some more playing with my draw length and I think I have got it perfect.


MUCH MUCH more....to teach you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> We are only scratching the surface?
> 
> I feel like I have already learned so much!
> Can't wait to see what's next. Going to shoot my first 6 yard test tonight. Did some more playing with my draw length and I think I have got it perfect.


I will put together a "care package" for you,
and

you will be able to take your experiments a little farther.


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## gofast (Apr 15, 2011)

I shoot with ladybowhunter12. She loves archery and practices all the time and is a very focused and competitive young lady. Thanks to Alan she will be able to reach her potential. We have no real good coaches in our area that can teach this. Keep up the good work lady12 you will get there!!! Thanks Alan.


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## DJO (Dec 5, 2008)

Wow. Very informative post. Thanks for your time Alan, this info, is very helpful. ladybowhunter12, your attitude is great and you are a very fast learner. I think this thread will help many archers like myself. Thanks to the both of you.


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## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

gofast said:


> I shoot with ladybowhunter12. She loves archery and practices all the time and is a very focused and competitive young lady. Thanks to Alan she will be able to reach her potential. We have no real good coaches in our area that can teach this. Keep up the good work lady12 you will get there!!! Thanks Alan.


Who ever was helping her did a solid job of getting her going. It's been fun watching her develop and will continue to be a great girl to follow through her archery career.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bgreenlee said:


> Who ever was helping her did a solid job of getting her going. It's been fun watching her develop and will continue to be a great girl to follow through her archery career.


Agreed. The folks that have been working with LadyBowhunter12 gave her a good foundation.

Now,
I am going to transform her foundation into ROCK solid GRANITE...

then,
we keep her going, to more and more advanced level training.


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## Fenwayrick (Aug 19, 2013)

This whole thread has been a huge breath of fresh air. Thank you.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

This is starting to sound like an infomercial


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

gofast said:


> I shoot with ladybowhunter12. She loves archery and practices all the time and is a very focused and competitive young lady. Thanks to Alan she will be able to reach her potential. We have no real good coaches in our area that can teach this. Keep up the good work lady12 you will get there!!! Thanks Alan.


Hehe. This guy has contributed a lot to getting me where I am now! 

He has taught me a lot of things that I wasn't sure about at first. They all ended up making me better... 

Hate to admit it


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## Lu_45 (Oct 6, 2014)

Great thread, tagged.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Results for my first 6 yards, 30 shot test. Got some work to do tomorrow!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Results for my first 6 yards, 30 shot test. Got some work to do tomorrow!


Two Prong approach.

FIRST
we flatten the test results,
cuz this is the EASIER of the two things to fix.

AFTER we flatten test results...
then...

we see where we are...

and IF we need to make the test pattern
more skinny (address left-right miss pattern)...if any.

The CARE package...(which I need to build)
will help.


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## hitnmiss (Jun 10, 2014)

Tagged


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## alclark2 (Aug 3, 2014)

rohpenguins said:


> This is starting to sound like an infomercial


Change the channel if you don't like it.. This is the best AT post I've found in my limited time on AT.


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## BuckshutrJR (Feb 21, 2011)

Tagged


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## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

rohpenguins said:


> This is starting to sound like an infomercial


 well change the channel fella!


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## Smokeymtnbow (Jun 17, 2013)

So, what steps help in flattening the hole?


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Smokeymtnbow said:


> So, what steps help in flattening the hole?


Cam timing is one thing. I'm sure there are other ways to fix this to but I'm not sure.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Smokeymtnbow said:


> So, what steps help in flattening the hole?


cam SYNC work and cam TIMING are two different things.

CAm SYNC will help flatten the test pattern.

CAM SYNC is making the cam rotation positions DIFFERENT from each other, ON PURPOSE.
So,
when we work the SYNC....OUT OF SPEC, on purpose, only ONE cam moves...the TOP one
on a Hoyt or any hybrid bow.

When we TWEAK the SYNC out of spec,
when we CUSTOM TUNE the SYNC for each shooter...to get the BEST RESULTS....

not to match up a line on a cam (reference line for a good STARTING POINT)
not to match up "timing dots" (reference marks for a good STARTING POINT)

this is ADVANCED tuning, to take LadyBowhunter12 to the NEXT LEVEL of shooting...to further her one arrow hole performance at LONGER and LONGER distances.

WHAT does CAM sync work REALLY do?

When you are TUNING cam SYNC...OUT OF SPEC..ON PURPOSE
for LadyBowhunter12......we are going to TEST the sweet spot, by a half twist to confirm her sweet spot,
at EACH.....LONGER.....shooting school. 

TWEAKING cam sync
is taking the TOP HALF of the bow, and CHANGING by CONTROLLED tiny amounts,
HOW HARD we pull on the top axle.

TWEAK the cable ONE WAY...in MY system...we tweak the CONTROL CABLE ONLY.....(sure, other guys have other systems...that's fine)
half twist LESS
or
half twist MORE....

this pulls a TINY BIT HARDER on the TOP axle

we FINE TUNE the balance
of the top half of the bow
verus
the BOTTOM HALF OF THE BOW.

I don't use tape measures.
I only tune folks and their bows, based on their RESULTS.

So,
no lasers,
no reference marks (cuz we are working with an ADVANCED shooter here)...she ALREADY had the bow in a good STARTING POINT...

we are going WAY beyond BASIC tuning
and going for MAX results.

TWEAK your bow balance (upper half versus lower half)...is the MOST BASIC way to FINE TUNE and FLATTEN test results

at 2 yard shooting school
at 4 yard shooting school
at 6 yard shooting school.

NOTICE,
I do not TEST FOR "HOLD"...not measurable

I do not TEST for "FEEL"...not measurable

I do not TEST for "FLOAT"...not EASILY measurable...no need to TEST for "FLOAT".

I test for RESULTS....the stress test results.

This way, LadyBowhunter12 has a GROWING photo library of her own progress....

which you folks are following along on.

Can BEAT evidence.

BESIDES, the photo library is the FOUNDATION of my mental training program.
EVERYTHING in the training program has side effects...ON PURPOSE.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Cam timing is one thing. I'm sure there are other ways to fix this to but I'm not sure.


Yup,
we start for now,
tweaking bow balance,
with a cable.

OTher methods, come at later stages.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Smokeymtnbow said:


> So, what steps help in flattening the hole?





Bowtechforlife said:


> Cam timing is one thing. I'm sure there are other ways to fix this to but I'm not sure.


There is, a part of the piece and the piece of the whole, you can give someone a fish or give them a fishing pole and teach them to fish. A coach does not want to create a coach dependent archer but to create a self correcting archer.

N&B is training in a trail by fire method that allows the archer to put pieces of their form into strict performance based testing. It forces you to keep what is good and change what is bad and to eliminate what is unnecessary . If you follow and commit to it, you have no choice but to improve. You are forced to illuminate all the things that does not contribute to the piece of the whole. One thing does not stand alone because it is connected to something else. Fix one problem and it fixes many problems, (part of the piece).

The internet makes it a lot easier to learn so don't take for granted what it use to take years to learn by reading books and watching tapes. I see what N&B is doing and understand it. I have learned to do similar things in times past. It's about minimal effort, maximum results. Learning to use only what is necessary to produce results. Learning to use only the muscles that are necessary by using the bone structure to form a frame, Learning to turn off the mind and use your self built and self maintained sub-conscience shooting program. N&B knows what he is doing but does not have the time to explain it all because there is more than just what meets the eye here.. He would be writing an online book if he did and you would spend too much time reading instead of shooting. You will know in the end. 

I have broken both my ankles and my back. I can't shoot without restrictions. Time is not on my side. I have to be more efficient with my time. I have learned during my shooting session to get to peak quickly and hold my peak longer so as to get the most out of my time. When I go periods without shooting, I have learned to get back on track quickly. 
From my easy chair and from my knowledge and understanding I can tell you that N&B is teaching a good system. It is two-fold. One is physical and you will understand it as you experience it but the other won't be realized until enough pieces of the whole are put into place. Then BAM!!, you will see it. Practice does not make perfect but perfect practice does.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

Latest 6 yd picture does not show up.


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

> This is starting to sound like an infomercial


hehe yup great sales pitch though!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

xavier102772 said:


> Latest 6 yd picture does not show up.


Here you go.

6 yard stress test results for LadyBowhunter12.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Prior test results for LadyBowhunter12.


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

rohpenguins said:


> This is starting to sound like an infomercial


"well,, you can LEAVE,,, napoleon!" <-----if you dont know the movie you wont get this.....LOL


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Alan, just a quick question...? 
Being as you have the vids, How long of time is it from LadyBH12 getting to full draw to shot going off? Just curious


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Well said Fletched.


fletched said:


> There is, a part of the piece and the piece of the whole, you can give someone a fish or give them a fishing pole and teach them to fish. A coach does not want to create a coach dependent archer but to create a self correcting archer.
> 
> N&B is training in a trail by fire method that allows the archer to put pieces of their form into strict performance based testing. It forces you to keep what is good and change what is bad and to eliminate what is unnecessary . If you follow and commit to it, you have no choice but to improve. You are forced to illuminate all the things that does not contribute to the piece of the whole. One thing does not stand alone because it is connected to something else. Fix one problem and it fixes many problems, (part of the piece).
> 
> ...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

elkbow69 said:


> Alan, just a quick question...?
> Being as you have the vids, How long of time is it from LadyBH12 getting to full draw to shot going off? Just curious


I do my count,
when studying film for my students

I do my "slow count" the instant I see them reach full draw and they also hit anchor...(so the release elbow stops moving...bow arm/hand stops moving)

one-one-thousand
two-one-thousand
three-one-thousand...

four-one-thousand

somewhere between my slow three and four count
which is exactly what I am looking for.

At LATER stages,
I will get LadyBowhunter12 into my program for cadence, rhythm techniques.

She is doing just fine right now.

The STRESS test helps her get into a cadence,
automatically.

I explain that ALL shooters run on "battery power".

So,
prior to each shot, I want the shooter to be at 100% full charge.

WHY shoot and train with ONE arrow?

Cuz,
it forces you to put the bow down,
walk and pull the arrow,
walk back to the shooting line,
stuff the arrow into your quiver,
pick up the bow
load the arrow....

see how this establishes a shot routine
see how this SLOWS the shooter down

see how this teaches the shooter, subconsciously, 
to pay attention to address, where you position your feet, in relation to the shooting line.

My stress test is training LadyBowhunter12 at MANY MANY levels.


----------



## E. Johnson (Jan 17, 2009)

Great post, Great student and Great coaching. I have enjoyed this post more than any on AT in a long while.


----------



## Boatman71 (Jul 16, 2013)

E. Johnson said:


> Great post, Great student and Great coaching. I have enjoyed this post more than any on AT in a long while.


X2 thanks!


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## kanga (Dec 8, 2009)

Alan, you really are a very rare breed of human being. And I mean that in the most positive way. It's just a real pleasure reading all of this. It's not only 'LadyBowhunter12' who is the beneficiary of all this great information, it'll likely end up being many hundreds of archers. Of course a lot of the credit must go to 'LadyBowhunter12' for getting this thread off the ground in the first place and for being such a committed student. Well done the both of you!


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

Not to second gues any one but it is possible that your holding weigh is a bit high and you are allowing our bow shoulder to collapse uoward to take the load off. Then you have lost the full arm movement. May you should see if a lower poundage helps. Can also try drawing and holding at anchor whilr sitting in a chair . That exercise will expose the shoulder porblem quickly and ls acts as a strengthening exercise if you hold for 020 secons and then let down
MLC


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macdoc18 said:


> Not to second gues any one but it is possible that your holding weigh is a bit high and you are allowing our bow shoulder to collapse uoward to take the load off. Then you have lost the full arm movement. May you should see if a lower poundage helps. Can also try drawing and holding at anchor whilr sitting in a chair . That exercise will expose the shoulder porblem quickly and ls acts as a strengthening exercise if you hold for 020 secons and then let down
> MLC


Actually, you are guessing.

Do not under-estimate LadyBowhunter12.
NO bow shoulder collapsing since we made adjustments way back during 2 yd shooting school.

This is a progress report for Dec 23, 2014...she is halfway through testing at 6 yards.
we IGNORE fliers...and focus only on the GOOD shots.

So,
focusing on the GOOD shots at 6 yards....(she is running experiments)...
her results for EXPERIMENT #1.
20% reduction...so far.

She is going to run experiment #2.

TEST #1 results...comparative analysis, from yesterday's results to today's results.



No guessing.
JUST results...test results.

LadyBowhunter12 is doing just FINE.
Her OWN analysis for Experiment #1.

*"Most shots are in the same hole....3 total fliers.
Proceeding to Experiment #2."*

I agree 100% with her OWN analysis.

Experiment #1 is working quite well. We will confirm that Experiment #1 is the right direction to go,
when we have the RESULTS of Experiment #2 to confirm.

Photos for Experiment #1 are scaled to match,
for direct comparison,
and so I could do the MEASUREMENTS for the reduction in primary TEST results pattern.

20% reduction in ONE DAY.

SOLID performance.

LadyBowhunter12 is a very ADVANCED shooter.

ALL I am doing
is helping her tune HER BOW....OUT of spec...ON PURPOSE
to make the bow more...MUCH more forgiving...to custom fit HER bow to her EXCELLENT shot execution.

EXPERIMENT #1 is ONLY a half twist adjustment...."OUT of SPEC"....on PURPOSE.

YOU can ONLY TUNE to your CURRENT skill level.

WILL ALL shooters benefit from a HALF twist adjustment?

Nope.

Will a DEAD consistent ADVANCED shooter see results at just 6 yards,
with a HALF twist in ONE cable?

Yup.

Waiting on the results for EXPERIMENT #2 to confirm LadyBowhunter12's findings.

I am building her a custom set...MULTIPLE custom sets of control cables (range of lengths)...and buss cables (my own design...in multiple lengths).
THIS way, she can mix and match the variety of lengths...to continue with her experiments...in FRANKEN-steining a bow...OUT of spec...ON PURPOSE

(each control cable set, will be slightly LONGER than the other one....I will build several for her to work with)
(each buss cable, will be slightly LONGER than the other one...I will build several for her to work with)

to continue with her experiments,
to continue with her training
at each successive
LONGER shooting school.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I will address the three FLIERS with LadyBowhunter12
later, after she finishes experiment #2 for vertical pattern control (cam sync work).


the three fliers are HIGH LEFT,
due to a fundamental bow setup issue...dating back to before we started working together.

I left that alone, to see how far we could get,
with the bow at BASELINE...at 2 yard shooting school

and then,
we fixed the "weak feeling" bow shoulder during 2 yard shooter school

then,
progressed to FRANKEN-stein work to tighten up the 4 yard pattern

and now, we are fine tuning vertical control....with cable work, the control cable, just a half twist
to FLATTEN 6 yard vertical control....during 6 yard shooting school.

The fliers,
however...

that's another aspect of the bow setup,
will save that for the next step.

Need to finish up work with VERTICAL control, for 6 yard shooting school.

The fliers are a BOW issue...not a shooter issue.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Final TEST results for 6 yard shooting school
for LadyBowhunter12.

WE have the results from yesterday, at 6 yards...30 shot, one arrow STRESS TEST.

WE also have TODAY's TEST results....MINUS 1/2 twist, control cable...to TWEAK CAM SYNC
We also have TODAY's TEST results....PLUS 1/2 twist, control cable....to TWEAK cam sync.

NO guessing.

JUST results.

MINUS 1/2 twist is the BETTER test result.

LadyBowhunter12 is a very serious advanced shooter, completing the PLUS test multiple times, to confirm her findings.
EVEN the BEST looking PLUS 1/2 twist result....does not compare to the MINUS 1/2 twist RESULT.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Going to redo minus 1/2 twist test tomorrow. Going to take my time and see what I get. Can't wait to see how it turns out!


----------



## arhakl (Dec 18, 2014)

What does lady bowhunter 12 use for a rear sight when she's trying to shoot these type groups?


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

arhakl said:


> What does lady bowhunter 12 use for a rear sight when she's trying to shoot these type groups?


The usual.

Round ring inside the bowstring.

Commonly called a peep sight.

Very typical to use this round ring inside the bowstrring
when shooting a compound bow
with an aiming device mounted to the bow riser....pin sight or target sight.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Going to redo minus 1/2 twist test tomorrow. Going to take my time and see what I get. Can't wait to see how it turns out!


After you repeat the MINUS 1/2-TWIST test...(control cable)
Then

I will have you try one more thing
to FLATTEN your 6 yd shooting school results
EVEN FURTHER.

One more brick in your foundation.

As usual
I will tell you HOW and WHY it works.

Then you can run experiments to flatten your
6 yard results as much as you like.


----------



## arhakl (Dec 18, 2014)

Would a rear sight with a 0.005 inch crosshair allowing you to dead center align it on the center of the front sight fiber optic pin to an alignment accuracy of 0.002 inch make it easier? These do exist on the limited specialty archery market.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

arhakl said:


> Would a rear sight with a 0.005 inch crosshair allowing you to dead center align it on the center of the front sight fiber optic pin to an alignment accuracy of 0.002 inch make it easier? These do exist on the limited specialty archery market.


Nope.

Not needed.
She is doing just fine with her current equipment.


----------



## arhakl (Dec 18, 2014)

Good point that I can appreciate and understand! Thanks


----------



## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed in every pic that the bow looks like it's pointing uphill when at full draw, even though the arrow is parallel to the ground. It's really odd looking to me and not something I've noticed before. It's as if the nock is too high. 

She's shooting very well so it may be nothing, but i thought I'd put it out there. 

LB12 has a very bright future ahead of her and is in very capable hands. Alan helped me last year more than he will ever really know.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed in every pic that the bow looks like it's pointing uphill when at full draw, even though the arrow is parallel to the ground. It's really odd looking to me and not something I've noticed before. It's as if the nock is too high.
> 
> She's shooting very well so it may be nothing, but i thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> LB12 has a very bright future ahead of her and is in very capable hands. Alan helped me last year more than he will ever really know.


Yup.
Was gonna address that later.

D-loop was set ridiculously high,
so...

to get to LEVEL nock travel...

the arrow is always pointed towards LEVEL flight,
but
the bow riser is tilted BACKWARDS
and the sight is aiming UPHILL.

This is what happens,
when folks do the SHOULD do THIS....

and do not understand the HOW's and WHYs.

Soooo,
yes,
the bow LOOKS weird,
and yet

somehow,
we can compensate with JUST CAM sync and get PRETTY good results.

HOWEVER
there are SIDE effects....

I have not addressed d-loop POSITION...with LadyBowhunter12...NOT YET

cuz,
I wanted her to go through the experimental process
of STEP by STEP detective work

and
she is learning the INs and OUTs
of CAM SYNC work, to COMPENSATE for LESS then perfect LEVEL nock travel....also called SUPER DUPER FLAT groups.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed in every pic that the bow looks like it's pointing uphill when at full draw, even though the arrow is parallel to the ground. It's really odd looking to me and not something I've noticed before. It's as if the nock is too high.
> 
> She's shooting very well so it may be nothing, but i thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> LB12 has a very bright future ahead of her and is in very capable hands. Alan helped me last year more than he will ever really know.


So,
when you have SOMEBODY else tuning your bow
and setting the d-loop to what I call a SKY HIGH...TAIL HIGH d-loop...

cuz,
well,
somebody on the INTERNET says you are SU-PPOSED TO....

then,
we we FIX the cam sync
to get ONE Arrow Hole Performance.....thirty TIMES in a row...shooting ONE arrow again and again and again...


what happens,
the SIDE EFFECT of that SKY HIGH d-loop....for that SUPER DUPER TAIL HIGH d-looP...

whether we are talking a SUPPOSED TO....1/8th TAIL HIGH d-loop
whether we are talking a SUPPOSED TO....3/16ths TAIL HIGH d-loop


the NET side effect
is that when we get LadyBowhunter12..shooting ONE ARROW hole performance...at 2 yards....at 4 yards....at 6 yards...

we get SKY HIGH FLIERS...

cuz,
when you get the SKY HIGH d-loop setup bow, shooting DEAD FLAT...

the riser is tilted BACKWARDS
the grip angle is now RIDICULOUSLY STEEP..

and we get the THREE HIGH fliers....

cuz of the SKY HIGH d-loop.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed in every pic that the bow looks like it's pointing uphill when at full draw, even though the arrow is parallel to the ground. It's really odd looking to me and not something I've noticed before. It's as if the nock is too high.
> 
> She's shooting very well so it may be nothing, but i thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> LB12 has a very bright future ahead of her and is in very capable hands. Alan helped me last year more than he will ever really know.


I was WUNDERING....who would notice FIRST.

Not surprised that YOU are the first to notice.

Well done.


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> I was WUNDERING....who would notice FIRST.
> 
> Not surprised that YOU are the first to notice.
> 
> Well done.


I noticed that too. It really sticks out. I just figured with you having her making adjustments that it was a temporary thing to get them to respond. She said that someone is letting her use some arrows and was going to buy some of her own so I thought they may not be the best arrows for her set up.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed in every pic that the bow looks like it's pointing uphill when at full draw, even though the arrow is parallel to the ground. It's really odd looking to me and not something I've noticed before. It's as if the nock is too high.
> 
> She's shooting very well so it may be nothing, but i thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> LB12 has a very bright future ahead of her and is in very capable hands. Alan helped me last year more than he will ever really know.


I spotted this early, like you did.

I wanted to step LadyBowhunter12 through the forensic process,
so....

even with a bow that is "OUT Of TUNE"....as in a SKY HIGH d-loop, causing WEIRD grip angles, as in WAY too low of a grip angle...

we COMPENSATED with cam sync work,
to get her through my 2 yard shooting school
and through 4 yard shooting school

and only at 6 yard shooting school,
did LadyBowhunter12 get the THREE WEIRD high left fliers.

I know why,
but I WUZ going to tell her tomorrow..

AFTER she redid the cam sync test for 6 yards.

HERE is the FULL analysis, of WHAT, and WHY.



Sooo..

when someone has the D-LOOP SKY HIGH...

cuz,
they probably HEARD that this is the SUPPOSED TO DO...category...

there are SIDE effects.

AS you can see in the photo analysis,
the SIDE effects are NOT good for LadyBowhunter12.

She is shooting probably TOP ROW, indoor spots, 20 yards.

THIS is early in the process, a FREEZE frame video on Dec 18, 2014.

NOTICE the extension arm angle for her sight.
MORE uphill

than the LAUNCH angle of the arrow.

THIS is BAD.

The ARROW has to have a NEGATIVE LAUNCH angle with respect to the SIGHT EXTENSION arm.

Soooo,
if I re-LEVEL the PHOTO...
this will become even MORE CLEAR.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I noticed that too. It really sticks out. I just figured with you having her making adjustments that it was a temporary thing to get them to respond. She said that someone is letting her use some arrows and was going to buy some of her own so I thought they may not be the best arrows for her set up.


Arrows are doing just fine.

The NEGATIVE firing solution is from a TAIL HIGH d-loop.

This causes the load balance to SHIFT MORE weight to the TOP axle,
artificially loading the UPPER half of the bow MORE than normal.

So,
LadyBowhunter12 is ending up with a negative angle firing solution.



BOW is WAY out of balance.

UPPER half of bow is working too hard,
BOTTOM half of bow is not working HARD enough.

So,
the extension arm of the sight is AIMED 4 degrees above horizontal

and the arrow is nearly 2 degrees AIMED DOWNHILL...at 2 degrees above horizontal.

BIG DEAL, right?

Well,
what this does...

a SKY HIGH d-loop
is the bow riser GRIP gets even MORE LOW wrist....for grip angle

resulting in the 3 fliers, HIGH LEFT for LadyBowhunter12

so...

YES,
this is big deal for a shooter as SKILLED as LadyBowhunter12.

So,
another way of saying what I am trying to say....

I can FURTHER boost LadyBowhunter12's accuracy to LONGER and LONGER distances..

when I lower the d-loop on the bowstring
to put the bow BACK into balance...
so

I can BLUE PRINT her bow

so the arrow LAUNCH angle
and the sight extension arm LAUNCH angle are MATCHING for a BETTER firing solution.



Old Timers...
they call this READING the D-LOOP.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I noticed that too. It really sticks out. I just figured with you having her making adjustments that it was a temporary thing to get them to respond. She said that someone is letting her use some arrows and was going to buy some of her own so I thought they may not be the best arrows for her set up.


Better arrows will HELP..


but,
another indirect lesson for LadyBowhunter12...

shoot what you GOT
and I will let her know how far we can get
with her "BORROWED arrows".


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I noticed that too. It really sticks out. I just figured with you having her making adjustments that it was a temporary thing to get them to respond. She said that someone is letting her use some arrows and was going to buy some of her own so I thought they may not be the best arrows for her set up.


I can teach LadyBowhunter12 how to "read a d-loop"

cuz,
the SKY HIGH d-loop position,
is what is holding her back at 6 yards...

CAM sync work,
is HELPING to COMPENSATE...

but,
the ROOT cause of the three HIGH left fliers
is the LOUSY d-loop position...

whjch puts the bow WAY out of balance,
TOP half STRONGER than bottom half.

So,
when we FIX the d-loop to a BETTER starting position,
then...

we have to RE-DO the CAM sync work...

which she is becoming an expert in....already.


----------



## ColoradoNick (Oct 15, 2014)

Hey Alan,

Here's a question for you-

I've learned that when you change your setup (new stabilizer with side bar) your cam sync tuning can be out of wack again. I'm in the process of retesting at 4 yards +1/2 twist, +1 twist, -1/2 twist, etc. But my question is I will also have a quiver on my bow for hunting. Should I put the quiver on and load it up while doing this?

Unfortunately I can't shoot for a week or so, my bow slipped out of the bow master and chipped one of the limbs pretty good so I'm waiting on some new ones. I just got the phone call that my synunm came in too


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

streetdoctor said:


> Hey Alan,
> 
> Here's a question for you-
> 
> ...


Please start a new thread, with your question.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I noticed that too. It really sticks out. I just figured with you having her making adjustments that it was a temporary thing to get them to respond. She said that someone is letting her use some arrows and was going to buy some of her own so I thought they may not be the best arrows for her set up.




NEW HIGH SCORE for LadyBowhunter12.

299 43X.

Me thinks her arrows are doing JUST FINE!

*Woo hoo!! Shot my best score in league! 
299-43X
Missed in the blue early. I didn't feel tired really either which is definitely an improvement. *


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> NEW HIGH SCORE for LadyBowhunter12.
> 
> 299 43X.
> 
> ...


If I am seeing this right, you can see the high d-loop effecting her 2 top 5 spot targets. That is where she is aiming the highest and would be most effected by the high loop. The middle and 2 bottom look really consistent with an even float.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> If I am seeing this right, you can see the high d-loop effecting her 2 top 5 spot targets. That is where she is aiming the highest and would be most effected by the high loop. The middle and 2 bottom look really consistent with an even float.


The high d-loop
(my suspicion)
we will confirm tomorrow AM...

is causing the riser to rock BACKWARDS,
creating an artificially LOW grip angle.

So,
the riser becomes twitchy, for high-low misses...

I can see it in the video freeze frame analysis,
you will see it as a bow that has the BOTTOM end of the riser ROCK forwards,
during a LEVEL Shot, follow through reaction.

Soooo,
I want to build LadyBowhunter12's foundation BRICK by BRICK.

AS some old timers like to say....

some famous pro,
decades ago won Vegas with a WAY out of tune bow.

Yes,
it IS possible..
but,
WHY do this to yourself????

So,
I will have LadyBowhunter12 do the MINUS half twist control cable experiment again...

we will analyze the test results...

then
I want to analyze her d-loop position...

then,
we can go STEP by STEP
and restore the bow balance to EVEN...

confirmed by FREEZE frame work (follow through reaction)..after the arrow is fired...


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Follow through Pic #1.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Followthrough pic 4


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Followthrough pic 4


I see the rock back. Do you have her placing the 5 spot target at any particular height?


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Jeez! I'm ready to get this d loop in the right place! 

But I know it's a process that we have to follow.. Brick by brick. I'll be patient


----------



## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Marked great information.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I see the rock back. Do you have her placing the 5 spot target at any particular height?


I always try to have folks train on a LEVEL shot,
bullseye at shoulder height....makes diagnosis easier.

If we can make the bow follow through "better"...
I think the groups will only continue to IMPROVE.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Jeez! I'm ready to get this d loop in the right place!
> 
> But I know it's a process that we have to follow.. Brick by brick. I'll be patient


We keep building the photo library.

You are shooting GREAT...

so,
if you like, you do the MINUS 1/2 twist experiment again.

Then,
send me that d-loop photo,
so I can do my analysis.

Then,
we can play with the d-loop
and I can show you the HOW's and WHY's for balancing the UPPER and LOWER half of the bow.

MAIN thing,
when we have the bow MORE balanced...

it changes the grip angle,
when YOU are at full draw.

Your bow is TWITCHY right now,
so this is why you are seeing the HIGH fliers....

Your TEST patterns are SOLID..

but
you have SOOOO much more potential for dropping your group size,
even SMALLER.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

As I suspected....SKY high d-loop.



Even with a bow that is OUT of WHACK....meaning, NOT as forgiving as I would like....for LadyBowhunter12...

she shot a NEW high score.



299 43Xs.

Sooo,
what's the BIG DEAL then?

The BIG DEAL
is that with the SKY HIGH d-loop,
the bow is LESS forgiving than it COULD be for LadyBowhunter12...

and
I'm thinking 
that we can find LadyBowhunter12's TRUE accuracy potential...

with a little more foundation building...

a brick at a time.

MOVING the d-loop to something more "REASONABLE"....based on TEST results....
not just on LOOKS...

always BACKED up by TEST RESULTS...

then,
the scores and GROUP sizes should only get BETTER!


----------



## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

Awesome thread. In for current and future reference.


----------



## zick (Oct 26, 2004)

great info


----------



## hometownhero (Aug 27, 2013)

This is a really good thread. 

Just wish I had a facility to do this I would do this as well.


----------



## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> As I suspected....SKY high d-loop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm betting the bow is going to hold so much better for her when she gets that squared away. With that severe angle, she's basically got the bow pulling down on her bow arm on every shot. This could be a big reason for the tired shoulder, however I do agree with your analysis on her biomechanics. 

LB12 - congrats on the new PB! This has been a fun read - keep up the good work.


----------



## quickcat18 (Feb 23, 2010)

good info in here as i am working on my form as well right now. keep up the good work LB12


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

What exactly did you end up with draw length change from the beginning of the thread?


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

25 1/8" to 24 3/4"


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> 25 1/8" to 24 3/4"


The specs are secondary,
but you are going in the correct direction..

doing experiments,
letting results guide you.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## Ebaker538 (Nov 23, 2013)

Wow... Locked in on this one. Some great information!


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> The specs are secondary,
> but you are going in the correct direction..
> 
> doing experiments,
> ...



If I didn't already have it one order I'd sure want that tuning DVD in my stocking. Talk about a great gift!


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> I'm betting the bow is going to hold so much better for her when she gets that squared away. With that severe angle, she's basically got the bow pulling down on her bow arm on every shot. This could be a big reason for the tired shoulder, however I do agree with your analysis on her biomechanics.
> 
> LB12 - congrats on the new PB! This has been a fun read - keep up the good work.


Sooo,
what REALLY happens when someone TUNES a bow, SETS UP a bow with a SKY HIGH d-loop?



The VERY VERY BOTTOM LINE
is that I can help a shooter tune a bow with NEARLY ANY STARTING d-loop position.

WHAT"S the BIG DEAL?

Well
the BIG DEAL
is that we have to RE-BALANCE a bow,
when the D_LOOP is just PLAIN SKY HIGH.

Sooo,
when the bow is BALANCED, with cam sync work,
a bow with a SKY HIGH d-loop can still deliver a 299 with 43Xs.



But,
this takes a shooter with LadyBowhunter12's shooting skills.

During follow through,
the bottom of bow was kicking out
and
LadyBowhunter12 is experiencing high fliers, during 6 yd shooting school.

SKY High d-loop preferentially loads the UPPER limb, WAY out of balance
and ARTIFICIALLY converts the grip angle to a WACKY EXTRA LOW grip angle
cuz the riser is rocking BACKWARDS, at full draw

and forces a CRAZY negative angle firing solution, for 20 yards...

target sight arm is aimed UPHILL
and
the arrow, when at full draw, is aimed LESS UPHILL.

At 20 yards,
a PROPERLY setup bow
will have the arrow launch angle AND the target sight arm angle both an EXACT MATCH.

For LadyBowhunter12's bow
we have a NEGATIVE 1.9 angle of declination...with respect to the target sight arm.

*RIDICULOUS.*

AND yet,
she shoots a new HIGH score,
299 43Xs

cuz,
we have been FrANK-EN-steining draw length
(completely with cables)

and
we have also optimized the CAM sync....using RESULTS based tuning and testing and TRAINING.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> If I didn't already have it one order I'd sure want that tuning DVD in my stocking. Talk about a great gift!


I go over this procedure,
but NOT to this level of DETAIL.

So,
when you go through the DVD...

you will find a section on FRANK-EN-STEINING the draw length...
but,

in this thread,
you are getting a REAL WORLD example of the EFFECTS.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> If I didn't already have it one order I'd sure want that tuning DVD in my stocking. Talk about a great gift!


In another section of the d-loop,
I briefly mention...trying the SKY HIGH, TAIL high d-loop style

and
I briefly mention...TRYING the LEVEL arrow nock, d-loop style.

In this thread,
I go into MUCH more engineering detail
of the HOWs and WHY's for BOTH styles of d-loop shooting.

Old Timers, call it READING a d-loop.

They talk about a "balanced" angles d-loop
or
they talk about a POINTY d-loop, where the POINTY part is ANGLED UP
or
they talk about a POINTY d-loop, where the POINTY part is angled DOWN.

I explain what is really going on,
with an OUT of BALANCE bow (upper versus LOWER half)
when you use the SKY HIGH d-loop style.

BOTTOM line

a SKY HIGH d-loop changes the riser angle (top of riser is tilted towards your FACE)
and
this artificially makes the grip angle MORE LOW WRIST than the manufacturer was planning.

So,
at least for LadyBowhunter12...

I trained her the HARD WAY
and left the d-loop alone

and using RESULTS based tuning and TRAINING..

we took her to a NEW personal best score
with a POORLY SETUP bow (d-loop SKY HIGH)

with a freeze frame video, where the evidence showed the bow CLEARLY out of balance...Ned250 and fletched noticed....first.

You cannot TRULY UNDERSTAND a "TUNED".."or it NOT TUNED" bow...

until you shoot a NEW PERSONAL BEST score...with a "IT's NOT REALLY TUNED that GREAT" bow...
with the SKY HIGH d-loop

and then...

we have the same process,
the same franken-stein the draw length again

the same cam sync work AGAIN

with the d-loop in a MORE BETTER position...(A LOT lower)...like closer, MUCH CLOSER to level...d-loop STYLE
and then
we do the TESTING all over again....

and see the difference.

LadyBowhunter12 has already started her work again
and she KNOWS the difference now.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> If I didn't already have it one order I'd sure want that tuning DVD in my stocking. Talk about a great gift!


Soo,
I just MENTION in the DVD

try both styles...
SKY HIGH d-loop style
whatever amount SKY HIGH..FLOATS your boat

and

I say TRY the level D-LOOP style.

THIS thread really DISSECTS the difference in RESULTS.

I still say try both ways.

hehehehehehehehe.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NCBuckNBass said:


> If I didn't already have it one order I'd sure want that tuning DVD in my stocking. Talk about a great gift!


Firing solutions
angle of attack for arrow launch

i don't go into THAT much technical detail
in the DVD...that's a bonus just for this thread.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I think im going to be able to shoot a new test of 6 yards with new d loop position tonight!

Christmas had me a little busy tonight  

Merry Christmas Everybody!


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
LadyBowhunter12 has moved the D Loop to a NEW position on the bowstring.

The resulting GRIP ANGLE at full draw
is MUCH CLOSER to what Hoyt had in mind.

Sooo,
cuz the d-loop is in a NEW position, MUCH LESS SKY HIGH...much CLOSER to DEAD LEVEL

we have a NEW bow limb balance split
between the UPPER and LOWER limbs

and
this means,
the CAM SYNC work has to start ALL OVER...

and she did.

MASSIVE amount of adjustment....NINE adjustments
if you consider that a HALF twist in the control cable
USUALLY makes a NOTICEABLE difference for vertical control

at 20 yards.

Merry Christmas


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I think im going to be able to shoot a new test of 6 yards with new d loop position tonight!
> 
> Christmas had me a little busy tonight


Take your time,
and find your sweet spot...confirm your sweet spot for the control cable...

try your NEW, current control cable twists...as-is

and then,
see if a half twist in any direction is not as good
to confirm you have the control cable exactly where you want.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Take your time,
> and find your sweet spot...confirm your sweet spot for the control cable...
> 
> try your NEW, current control cable twists...as-is
> ...


Okay sounds likes a good plan. 

Pretty tired tonight. Might have to skip out tonight and get back to it in the morning when I'm fully charged.

I know I have got the cable close, but I think I can get it better 

I played with it a lot today and I believe I know which direction I need to go if it's not perfect at where I am.


----------



## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Stay with it and you get it worked out soon. My daughter still tinkers with her set up but knows that you can always go back to what was shooting the best. Sometimes the little things will add to added points. Looking forward to your next level of advancement. Have a Merry Christmas.


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Sooo,
> LadyBowhunter12 has moved the D Loop to a NEW position on the bowstring.
> 
> The resulting GRIP ANGLE at full draw
> ...


Did moving the loop down change the draw length much? How long of a loop has she settled on?


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> Did moving the loop down change the draw length much? How long of a loop has she settled on?


Tied new loop at arrow nock LEVEL...instead of SKY HIGH.

With LEVEL loop,
she needed 4-1/2 twists SHORTER on control cable,
which makes perfect sense.

That is a MASSIVE change in cam sync.

LadyBowhunter12 tied on a new loop.

So,
she will check and find the sweet spot for cam sync.

Just tied a new loop, at LEVEL...90 degrees to bowstring.

Franken-en-stein draw length has not changed.
She is free to experiment with franken-stein tweaks, as she feels is necessary.


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Tied new loop at arrow nock LEVEL...instead of SKY HIGH.
> 
> With LEVEL loop,
> she needed 4-1/2 twists SHORTER on control cable,
> ...


I seen a pic of one of your bows with the loop below the arrow as opposed to splitting the arrow. Did you do that for a particular release or do you like the downward force on your arrow?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I seen a pic of one of your bows with the loop below the arrow as opposed to splitting the arrow. Did you do that for a particular release or do you like the downward force on your arrow?


Blade arrow rest.
Has springboard effect.

To increase down pressure on the blade
to get DEAD flat arrow vertical control

The Torqueless Loop,
plus Beiter nocks
plus blade angle at 30 degrees
plus understanding that a BLADE is just a shock absorber

dialing the vertical height of the arrow rest by the 0.002-inches
gave me GREAT results.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Learning some great stuff in this process! 

My 6 yard test got a lot flatter tonight! Now to get it skinnier!

Merry Christmas!!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Learning some great stuff in this process!
> 
> My 6 yard test got a lot flatter tonight! Now to get it skinnier!
> 
> Merry Christmas!!


Merry Christmas.

The AT folks have NO IDEA...hehehehehehehehe


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## Smokeymtnbow (Jun 17, 2013)

Can't wait to see.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Haven't updated my progress in awhile! Been busy with Christmas stuff so haven't got to shoot as much but I'm still getting some work done.

I got time to shoot a 6 yard test tonight. Nuts&Bolts and I have been working on flattening the pattern. We have done a good job! Tomorrow I am going to try to skinny up the pattern and also try to flatten it even more. 

Here are my results from tonight:









I believe I can get it even smaller!


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## Hoyt_27 (Nov 30, 2013)

Tagged


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Haven't updated my progress in awhile! Been busy with Christmas stuff so haven't got to shoot as much but I'm still getting some work done.
> 
> I got time to shoot a 6 yard test tonight. Nuts&Bolts and I have been working on flattening the pattern. We have done a good job! Tomorrow I am going to try to skinny up the pattern and also try to flatten it even more.
> 
> ...


Excellent.


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## 3-d buster x4 (Feb 12, 2011)

That's GREAT shooting !


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

From 2 yards shooting school
to now 6 yards shooting school for LadyBowhunter12.

One arrow fired at the target,
hang up the bow,
walk to target,
pull the arrow,
back to the shooting line...

fire your one arrow again.

Total of 30 times.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Keep it up!


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## thwacker (Dec 25, 2009)

I see improvement


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## DedDeerWalking (Dec 10, 2009)

Possibly a stupid question but here it goes. When doing these close range tests does it matter where the arrow impacts in relation to where you are aiming?? I know a close shot will hit low, so is the main concern hitting the same hole over and over again weather it is in line with the Bulls eye or not?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

DedDeerWalking said:


> Possibly a stupid question but here it goes. When doing these close range tests does it matter where the arrow impacts in relation to where you are aiming?? I know a close shot will hit low, so is the main concern hitting the same hole over and over again weather it is in line with the Bulls eye or not?


Yes, the purpose of his stress test is to wear u mentally and physically and see where your float and poi opens up. Then correct issues that arise to keep a one hole arrow group. Or as close to that as the individual is capable of having at the distance they are at.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DedDeerWalking said:


> Possibly a stupid question but here it goes. When doing these close range tests does it matter where the arrow impacts in relation to where you are aiming?? I know a close shot will hit low, so is the main concern hitting the same hole over and over again weather it is in line with the Bulls eye or not?


Where you hit is not important.

Want the one arrow, fired thirty times,
to hit the same point of impact,
ONE arrow hole performance.

The walking back and forth,
pulling the arrow,
walk back to the shooting line
fire the arrow
hang up the bow

walk to the target
pull the arrow
walk back to the shooting line,
load up and fire the ONE arrow...

again and again.

THIRTY shots.

Increasing focus
gives shooter a chance to lose focus, get bored, allow mind to wander

also gives the shooter a chance to learn the FEEL of a perfect shot,
develop shot discipline, to LET down, if the shot setup does not feel PERFECT.

Shooter is MOTIVATED to get back to ONE arrow hole performance.

LadyBowhunter12 has developed EXCELLENT shot discipline,
and she is learning the FINER POINTS of my DVD tuning secrets.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DedDeerWalking said:


> Possibly a stupid question but here it goes. When doing these close range tests does it matter where the arrow impacts in relation to where you are aiming?? I know a close shot will hit low, so is the main concern hitting the same hole over and over again weather it is in line with the Bulls eye or not?


LadyBowhunter12 says the 30 shot stress test is now RELAXING.

PERFECT.

Her mental training is proceeding as PLANNED.

hehehehehehehehehehehe


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## trickpony (Jul 31, 2010)

Great thread! Definitely will have to get your DVD nuts&bolts.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

Love these threads! Every time Alan posts, I learn more and more. All of my kid's bows are as/is setup from the local shop. They're all 3/16" nock high. This is the most reputable shop in my area...with many great shooters on staff (including the owner). I asked them why the loops were set high, and they replied with: 

'Because that's how you setup a compound'.

Needless to say, I'm in for the DVD as well...along with being in to watch miss Bowhunter's progress .


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Cris Anderson said:


> Love these threads! Every time Alan posts, I learn more and more. All of my kid's bows are as/is setup from the local shop. They're all 3/16" nock high. This is the most reputable shop in my area...with many great shooters on staff (including the owner). I asked them why the loops were set high, and they replied with:
> 
> 'Because that's how you setup a compound'.
> 
> Needless to say, I'm in for the DVD as well...along with being in to watch miss Bowhunter's progress .


I teach you BEYOND the "that's the way it is done".

I show you WHY and HOW, and what happens.

LadyBowhunter12 had the SKY HIGH TAIL HIGH d-loop.

I spotted that RIGHT AWAY.

Fletched and Ned250 also observed the STRANGE riser angle, after she fired the bow.
I did not say anything,
cuz I wanted to see WHO would notice
and
I wanted LadyBowhunter12 to experience the FULL side effects of her AS-IS bow setup.

NOW,
LadyBowhunter12 is an EXPERT tuner
and FULLY understands HOW to FRank-en-stein a bow IN between draw length settings
and now FULLY understands WHAT happens to GRIP angle of the riser, when you GO SKY HIGH, TAIL HIGH with the d-loop.

So,
I taught her how to franken-stein her bow,
to get BETTER and BETTER results

to get her ONE arrow hole performance at LONGER and LONGER distances.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Cris Anderson said:


> Love these threads! Every time Alan posts, I learn more and more. All of my kid's bows are as/is setup from the local shop. They're all 3/16" nock high. This is the most reputable shop in my area...with many great shooters on staff (including the owner). I asked them why the loops were set high, and they replied with:
> 
> 'Because that's how you setup a compound'.
> 
> Needless to say, I'm in for the DVD as well...along with being in to watch miss Bowhunter's progress .


She made some more tweaks,
TINY tweaks today...and she is going to redo the 6 yrd test.

Sooo,
you HEAR...a bow is TUNED or it is NOT TUNED.

I say,
your bow is busting nocks at 20 yards....or your bow is NOT BUSTING nocks at 20 yards.

hehehehehehehehe


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## Michigan Dave (Dec 28, 2005)

LadyBowhunter - with all of the shooting that you are doing now, for 2 yard, 4 yard, and 6 yard repetition shots, how have your original issues of "weak" shoulder and elbow coming along? Has more shooting strengthened these, has different arm & shoulder form strengthened these?? Thank you.

Michigan Dave


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Michigan Dave said:


> LadyBowhunter - with all of the shooting that you are doing now, for 2 yard, 4 yard, and 6 yard repetition shots, how have your original issues of "weak" shoulder and elbow coming along? Has more shooting strengthened these, has different arm & shoulder form strengthened these?? Thank you.
> 
> Michigan Dave


The shooting exercises have really helped! After the first time trying the straighter bow arm, I felt weak in my elbow. After shooting for a few days, I really think I got stronger in my bow arm as a whole and/or I got more used to the new style. The elbow weakness then went away. 

So all in all, I don't have a problem with my bow arm anymore. I feel like I am aiming the bow with my whole body instead of feeling like I'm holding the bow up with just my bow arm. That's the best way I can explain how I feel with the new style haha


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## gettinold (Oct 23, 2013)

tagged. I don't know how I missed this thread.


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## Smokeymtnbow (Jun 17, 2013)

Anxiously awaiting any updates....


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Tagged


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## one66stang (Mar 25, 2009)

tagged


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Well today I fine tuned my bow a little bit more. 

After shooting 5-10 shots at 6 yards per tweak I did, I think I have found the best combination yet... With the help of Nuts&Bolts of course. 

My first pattern was flat and wide.

After another adjustment it went to tall and long

And then my last adjustment came to one arrow hole with 10 shots.

This was only 10 shots on the last adjustment so if I can keep my focus for 30 straight shots, then this combination should work for me. 

I'm excited to see results of a new 6 yard test and my score during league.

I am really starting to understand the tuning process and it is really helping me. 

I also played with my grip and made it where I am more consistent with where I place my hand. This was VERY helpful. Nuts&Bolts showed me a very simple Grip Training Technique to keep my hand placement consistent. 

Next step I believe is fine tuning the balance of my stabilizers. I can't wait to see how much this will help me out!

Going to be doing a new 6 yard test soon! After today's results, this should be my best 6 yard test so far... Hopefully will be good enough to where I can move on to 8 yards!

I'll post my results as soon as I complete the test. Thanks for cheering me on everyone!


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## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Well today I fine tuned my bow a little bit more.
> 
> After shooting 5-10 shots at 6 yards per tweak I did, I think I have found the best combination yet... With the help of Nuts&Bolts of course.
> 
> ...


I'm curious to know what your last adjustment was before your last 10 shots?


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

nuts&bolts said:


> Where you hit is not important.
> 
> Want the one arrow, fired thirty times,
> to hit the same point of impact,
> ...


6 yd pictures look the same to me, or at least within normal shot variation. The twisting of cables look as though they did practically speaking very little if anything to improve the shot pattern. I think that the close range work, the adjustment of her d-loop height, the shooting program and the technique fixes are where the any real results are coming from. Which all help to translate into more comfort and confidence in her shot. It's the same as is done in every sport. Start slow and start close and slowly build your skill and confidence. A simple and logical process. IMHO


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

If you look at the 12/22 test, it is like a telephone pole... Then after playing with cables, I got a shorter pattern on 12/23. And then the 12/26 pattern is all in all much rounder than the two previous tests..

I guess the pictures might be harder to tell with but with the actual cardboard patterns in my hand, there is actually a good difference in patterns. And we achieved what we wanted between the two tests so that was the biggest accomplishment for me anyways.


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## trickpony (Jul 31, 2010)

LadyBowhunter12, I'm interested in hearing what you use on your bow for sights and stabilizers? I'm new to target archery and can't tell from the pictures what accessories you've got on your bow. When you have some time and if you don't mind please share. Thanks


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

trickpony said:


> LadyBowhunter12, I'm interested in hearing what you use on your bow for sights and stabilizers? I'm new to target archery and can't tell from the pictures what accessories you've got on your bow. When you have some time and if you don't mind please share. Thanks


Well I usually shoot women's hunter in 3D so I have a 12" restriction for my front stabilizer. I just use this setup for indoor too for now.

So right now I have a 9" bar from Xtreme Stabilization on front and then also a 6" on the back. 

I'm saving for a longer front rod around 27" but I still need to play around with different lengths before I buy. I would then use my 9" as a back bar hopefully. 

My scope bracket is super heavy so the front stabilizer has no weights and the back has 6 oz on it. But the setup is not perfect yet...

I use a scope with a 4x lens for indoor as well. The bracket is sur loc... I'm eventually going to get something a little lighter. The scope is Viper.

I really like this setup but it can get a lot better im sure!


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> If you look at the 12/22 test, it is like a telephone pole... Then after playing with cables, I got a shorter pattern on 12/23. And then the 12/26 pattern is all in all much rounder than the two previous tests..
> 
> I guess the pictures might be harder to tell with but with the actual cardboard patterns in my hand, there is actually a good difference in patterns. And we achieved what we wanted between the two tests so that was the biggest accomplishment for me anyways.


Sorry, not trying to be a d$%# or anything, I just don't really see much difference. Honesty looks like natural shooting variation to me. Depending on the day and how I feel, my shot pattern will vary from round and tight one day to an angular pattern the next. To me it seems like it's your technique changes and the short range practice that are producing the majority of your shot improvement. The glaring issue with your d-loop was the only real problem with your bow tune/setup. The rest has been you getting better and better, not so much the bow.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> If you look at the 12/22 test, it is like a telephone pole... Then after playing with cables, I got a shorter pattern on 12/23. And then the 12/26 pattern is all in all much rounder than the two previous tests..
> 
> I guess the pictures might be harder to tell with but with the actual cardboard patterns in my hand, there is actually a good difference in patterns. And we achieved what we wanted between the two tests so that was the biggest accomplishment for me anyways.


As you move further back, you will see if the adjustments pays off. Most of the time it will if you are getting good arrow flight now. It is amazing how those 30 shots at 6 yards can be so mentally taxing. It helps build and sustain concentration.

Don't forget to let the guys win every once in a while as to not mortally wound their egos. lol


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## zick (Oct 26, 2004)

I'd be curious to see what Nuts and Bolts showed you on consistent hand grip placement.


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## Smokeymtnbow (Jun 17, 2013)

LB12-
Are the changes you are making twists/untwists to the control cable or d loop lengths?


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

zick said:


> I'd be curious to see what Nuts and Bolts showed you on consistent hand grip placement.


I was going to wait for him to explain to you but I'll go ahead and try. He also explained it in his bareshaft thread if you need better explanation. 

All you do is put masking tape on your bow, 
Then you just hold your bow normally.
You will then make a line that matches up on the tape and on your hand so you can repeat the hand placement everytime! 

It's really simple. Here's what mine looks like:


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

fletched said:


> As you move further back, you will see if the adjustments pays off. Most of the time it will if you are getting good arrow flight now. It is amazing how those 30 shots at 6 yards can be so mentally taxing. It helps build and sustain concentration.
> 
> Don't forget to let the guys win every once in a while as to not mortally wound their egos. lol


Yeah! It's really cool because I can see what the adjustments do at 6 yards right in front of my eyes. And the adjustments did exactly what Nuts&bolts said they would do.

I have definitely experienced the difference in my concentration during league night especially. It was awesome. The tests also slowed me down a TON. I was the last person on the line last week every time and I felt like I was just doing my normal pace that I would do for the tests. I think this really helped my score as well.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

xavier102772 said:


> Sorry, not trying to be a d$%# or anything, I just don't really see much difference. Honesty looks like natural shooting variation to me. Depending on the day and how I feel, my shot pattern will vary from round and tight one day to an angular pattern the next. To me it seems like it's your technique changes and the short range practice that are producing the majority of your shot improvement. The glaring issue with your d-loop was the only real problem with your bow tune/setup. The rest has been you getting better and better, not so much the bow.


Ah heck, I understand your thinking. But you'd be surprised!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

xavier102772 said:


> Sorry, not trying to be a d$%# or anything, I just don't really see much difference. Honesty looks like natural shooting variation to me. Depending on the day and how I feel, my shot pattern will vary from round and tight one day to an angular pattern the next. To me it seems like it's your technique changes and the short range practice that are producing the majority of your shot improvement. The glaring issue with your d-loop was the only real problem with your bow tune/setup. The rest has been you getting better and better, not so much the bow.


Sorry but I think this is a very bold comment considering all your doing is speculating from pictures. If LB12 says it's helping then it probably is. You can definitely tweak a bow to make it more forgiving for you I'm not sure why your saying it's all because of form differences. I've been following this thread and it's really cool seeing you progress through the tests!!


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## B-FOW14 (Sep 10, 2014)

Its crazy how much I have learned from your thread ladybowhunter12. I think we might have the next Erika Jones !!! On our hands guys . You will do great things if you stick with it...


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## zwalls (Apr 16, 2006)

I'm curious to know what your last adjustment was before your last 10 shots?


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## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Ah heck, I understand your thinking. But you'd be surprised!


Your demeanor in responding to doubters impresses me young lady. Nearly as much as your shooting. 

Alan knows what he is taking about. In a few weeks time I went from a 280 average and tossed up a 294 yesterday. It came from 2 areas. Form improvement and getting my bow out of "spec" to fit me. Yesterday was the first round I scored in weeks. All short work since Alan started coaching me. Sadly I had a shoulder surgery a few hours ago so I'm out for some time. But I will be following your progress daily. Keep up the amazing work kiddo.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

bgreenlee said:


> Your demeanor in responding to doubters impresses me young lady. Nearly as much as your shooting.
> 
> Alan knows what he is taking about. In a few weeks time I went from a 280 average and tossed up a 294 yesterday. It came from 2 areas. Form improvement and getting my bow out of "spec" to fit me. Yesterday was the first round I scored in weeks. All short work since Alan started coaching me. Sadly I had a shoulder surgery a few hours ago so I'm out for some time. But I will be following your progress daily. Keep up the amazing work kiddo.


I agree! And doing the different tests with the different adjustments proves that he knows what he is talking about haha. 

But gosh dang, that doesn't sound good. Hope you get well soon so you can get back to shooting!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

zwalls said:


> I'm curious to know what your last adjustment was before your last 10 shots?


The last adjustment was finishing touch on the cables!


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## RTILLER (May 4, 2009)

Great Thread!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Still working on my bow! It is shooting REALLY good right now. Best it ever has!

Since this is my first year shooting indoor spots, I'll be traveling for the first time to OK for an indoor competition on January 10. Not a huge competition but still a big deal for me!

I've only shot league at the shop I go to so its going to be a new setting and new people to shoot against. 

Like N&B said, I just have to let training take over and shoot each shot just like the tests. Still have to get lots of practice in so I can beat my high score [emoji4]


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## treestandnappin (Aug 5, 2012)

subbed


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## Michigan Dave (Dec 28, 2005)

Good luck, LadyBowhunter, at the OK shoot. Please let us know what you learned from the shoot, how it was different from shoots at your local bow shop, and if you were satisfied with your results. Happy New Year from one of your new fans.

Michigan Dave


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## Krash (May 29, 2012)

marked


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## CLA55IC (Nov 29, 2014)

Following


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Good luck to you on the 10th!


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

in for this. Amazing thread.

Amazing progress LB12. Looking forward to seeing your next results.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Still working on my bow! It is shooting REALLY good right now. Best it ever has!
> 
> Since this is my first year shooting indoor spots, I'll be traveling for the first time to OK for an indoor competition on January 10. Not a huge competition but still a big deal for me!
> 
> ...


Just remember this, how you practice is how you will perform. It's that simple. If you train properly working on form, shooting consistency and building a good mental shooting program, you will do as well as your skill allows at this time. Knowing what your skill level is will give you a benchmark to go by. Instead of relying on "feelings", you can rely on your training and skills to shoot the same score in competition as you do in practice. Having a benchmark will allow you to shoot with the confidence and surety to achieve what is realistic. As time goes on and you perfect your shooting skills and competition mindset, you can adjust your benchmark to your level. Each competition is a practice session of it's own giving you the opportunity to gain experience on the line. So don't look at a single competition as if it is a final performance but look at it as another learning session on the way to achieving something greater down the road when the time is right.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Very true! I have actually worked on my form a little bit more today. I'm making sure that I am drawing my bow correctly so that my bow arm is set correctly. Also have done some work with my stance. 

One thing I try to do during league is to only beat myself. Sometimes I let my competitive nature take over and I try to out shoot another person. This is when I struggle. I have learned if I just focus on my own target and my own shooting, that I perform a lot better. I'm not very good at handling pressure so I can't let myself feel pressured in the shot. That's where I find some of my fliers. 

I also try not to pressure myself too much into beating myself because it can have the same effects. 

It's hard to find the perfect balance of being focused but not trying too hard. But I am learning a few tricks to keep my focus only on the target.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Very true! I have actually worked on my form a little bit more today. I'm making sure that I am drawing my bow correctly so that my bow arm is set correctly. Also have done some work with my stance.
> 
> One thing I try to do during league is to only beat myself. Sometimes I let my competitive nature take over and I try to out shoot another person. This is when I struggle. I have learned if I just focus on my own target and my own shooting, that I perform a lot better. I'm not very good at handling pressure so I can't let myself feel pressured in the shot. That's where I find some of my fliers.
> 
> ...


I have a set of dvd's by Lanny Bassham called "With winning in mind". He was an Olympic target shooter and studied why 5% of competitors win 95% of the time. They are very informative dvds and plus I have another one of his dvd called "What every archer should now first about the mental game". I don't need them anymore and if you want them, I will let you have them. Just pm me you address and I will send them to you. I just as soon give them to you since you are making a valiant effort to improve your shooting. It won't interfere with N&B's coaching but just let him know about it.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

fletched said:


> I have a set of dvd's by Lanny Bassham called "With winning in mind". He was an Olympic target shooter and studied why 5% of competitors win 95% of the time. They are very informative dvds and plus I have another one of his dvd called "What every archer should now first about the mental game". I don't need them anymore and if you want them, I will let you have them. Just pm me you address and I will send them to you. I just as soon give them to you since you are making a valiant effort to improve your shooting. It won't interfere with N&B's coaching but just let him know about it.


Wow thanks! That's very nice of you


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> I have a set of dvd's by Lanny Bassham called "With winning in mind". He was an Olympic target shooter and studied why 5% of competitors win 95% of the time. They are very informative dvds and plus I have another one of his dvd called "What every archer should now first about the mental game". I don't need them anymore and if you want them, I will let you have them. Just pm me you address and I will send them to you. I just as soon give them to you since you are making a valiant effort to improve your shooting. It won't interfere with N&B's coaching but just let him know about it.


Actually..

I would prefer you NOT send her any mental coaching or archery coaching materials.

I have been training LadyBowhunter12 with my own mental training techniques all along.

Introducing other systems will definitely INTERFERE with my training program for LadyBowhunter12.

There are THREE foundations to archery.

1) tune the shooter...form...posture...follow through
2) tune the bow...franken-stein work for the most skilled shooters...beyond "IN-SPEC"

3) Mental discipline training...this last step is the real secret.

I have my own methods.
My program is not sequential...the pieces all WEAVE together.


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## hunting5150 (Dec 2, 2014)

I am new to AT, been lurking awhile, but am hooked on your thread and progress. Good luck, and keep us all informed of your progress.
I may be new here, but I can tell you have a a significant fan base growing, all rooting for ya!!!
Thanks for the thread and information given, please keep it coming.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Actually..
> 
> I would prefer you NOT send her any mental coaching or archery coaching materials.
> 
> ...


No problem N&B, I don't want to interfere with your training. I told her to let you know first so I wouldn't step on your toes.


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## gofast (Apr 15, 2011)

She will do just fine.


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## Monster11 (Jul 8, 2013)

Awesome thread


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## Musgrat (Oct 22, 2008)

In for a good lesson or 2.


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## nockthru (Oct 18, 2012)

Tagged. Amazing sharing of info. Thanks N&B


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## J7C7H7 (Mar 2, 2008)

I'm just wondering why all of the stress test groups are so far to the left? I'm assuming that the bow is sighted in at 20 yards. Is there something else going on that is making her group to the left up close?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

J7C7H7 said:


> I'm just wondering why all of the stress test groups are so far to the left? I'm assuming that the bow is sighted in at 20 yards. Is there something else going on that is making her group to the left up close?


No biggie. Not important.
Spends hours on training. Probably conserving cardboard.
Been doing lotsa training at 6 yards and doing long range testing at 20 yards.
Fine tuning the bow and her shot execution...to MASTER 6 yards...before we ramp up the difficulty again.

I have introduced LadyBowhunter12 to my "serious" level of training.

First stage of mental discipline techniques of my own design.
Been building a foundation for mental discipline all along....subconscious training...side effect of the
grueling stress test work.

Now...LadyBowhunter12 is using the first of my active...mental discipline techniques.
MOSTLY to improve focus...concentration.

CADENCE work is next.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Going to a big shoot is no different than going to your first local league night, you have to go to some of them and then you will get a feel for what to expect and your nerves will begin to improve. Just 3 years ago I was so nervous that I was shaking just shooting on the practice bags at my first asa tournament, now I can shoot a 2 thousand dollar shot for the win and be perfectly fine. So enjoy going to your first shoot and enjoy meeting people and shooting and use it as a learning experience that you soak up like a sponge.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Been writing down a lot of notes in my notebook. I have been learning so much lately. Going to be a late night practice tonight!


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

great thread.... lots of good info.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I did it guys! Scored my first 300 last night!








And yes, wrong date..


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Fantastic. Great shooting. You did an excellent job on the top left target. 

I am very glad that you posted to let us know how you are doing. You are one of nuts & bolts star students. Keep shooting and learning.


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## Yooper720 (Nov 25, 2009)

That's awesome congrats and great shooting.


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## B-FOW14 (Sep 10, 2014)

Nice!!!!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I did it guys! Scored my first 300 last night!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well done, Ladybowhunter12.

VERY well done.

I've got MORE things to each you.

hehehehehehehehehehe.


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## squish2519 (Dec 14, 2006)

Nice shooting LBH12! Patiently waiting for the forensic's of 8yd school. I'm sure there will be many that are going to comment on your pattern (300 target), but listen to N&B as he will for sure teach continue to teach one brick at a time. Great teaching's N&B!


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## DJO (Dec 5, 2008)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I did it guys! Scored my first 300 last night!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome - very impressive.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Congratulations and well done! 

It may be time to move to smaller targets


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Well done, Ladybowhunter12.
> 
> VERY well done.
> 
> ...


I am ready to learn more! I have learned so much from you already... it is amazing that there is even more that I get to learn!


Thanks everyone for cheering me on! Ill keep updating on my shooting status.


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## V-STROM 650 (Feb 23, 2010)

Nice target for your first 300! Good Job! My question is are most of your misses low or to the right? In other words, how was the target oriented when you shot it? (I know that sometimes pics get turned when they get posted) Just wondering if you need a sight adjustment or will do some more form/dl adjustment or training.


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## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

Awesome shooting! Trying to learn here....did the shots that went to the right and low feel any different?


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## Michigan Dave (Dec 28, 2005)

This is a wonderful achievement, LB12. CONGRATULATIONS.

I am in awe of your progress. Keep it going!!

I really appreciate your willingness to Pay IT Forward by sharing and updating all of the rest of us in/on your progress.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

V-STROM 650 said:


> Nice target for your first 300! Good Job! My question is are most of your misses low or to the right? In other words, how was the target oriented when you shot it? (I know that sometimes pics get turned when they get posted) Just wondering if you need a sight adjustment or will do some more form/dl adjustment or training.


The answer is NOT a sight adjustment.

If the PATH to 300 60X was as SIMPLE as a sight adjustment.

The PATH to 300 pts has been a LONG road for LadyBowhunter12.
LOTS of hard work...NO,
not just shooting lots of arrows at short range training.

NOT just "normal" variation in shot group sizes.

You folks have NO IDEA how hard LadyBowhunter12 has been working.
Been tweaking form,
been tweaking the bow settings, to dial it in
and
just started on the mental discipline training.

She is doing very well, obviously.


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

Great job lb12! Can she fix up those low and right misses with her stabilizers?


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## BMWrider (Sep 26, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I did it guys! Scored my first 300 last night!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congratulations and very well done! A great student with a great coach.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

After she shoots her first 60X game are you going to explain how you had her tweak the bow and what you have her doing for her mental game?

She is doing great. I know that you are happy for her. 



nuts&bolts said:


> The answer is NOT a sight adjustment.
> 
> If the PATH to 300 60X was as SIMPLE as a sight adjustment.
> 
> ...


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Bowtechforlife said:


> Great job lb12! Can she fix up those low and right misses with her stabilizers?


Stabilizer tuning comes at the VERY VERY END.

Not there yet.
Have not touched her current stab setup.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> After she shoots her first 60X game are you going to explain how you had her tweak the bow and what you have her doing for her mental game?
> 
> She is doing great. I know that you are happy for her.


www.nutsandboltsarchery.com

SOOO,
HOW does online coaching work?

ANSWER...see LadyBowhunter12 thread.

Sooooo,
Can you make me into a 300 60X shooter in your 3 day coaching program?

See LadyBowhunter12 thread.

Sooo,
can you make me into a 300 60X shooter in your 7 day coaching program?

See LadyBowhunter12 thread.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> After she shoots her first 60X game are you going to explain how you had her tweak the bow and what you have her doing for her mental game?
> 
> She is doing great. I know that you are happy for her.


LadyBowhunter12 is just STARTING my mental training program.

No,
I don't give away my training programs for FREE.

You get a TASTE.
You get to see the RESULTS...of RESULTS based tuning.

I spotted potential in LadyBowhunter12.

Sooo,
I am devising a custom program,
with ALL of my tools...bow tuning training...shooter execution training (FORM...SHOT process...MUSCLE MEMORY)...mental discipline training....the THREE foundations...

also sprinkied in some FRANKEN-STEIN tweaking the bow OUT OF SPEC...on purpose...training.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I did it guys! Scored my first 300 last night!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Current assignment is PATTERN analysis.

There are ANSWERS in the hole pattern.

I have been teaching LadyBowhunter12 PATTERN analysis, from DAY ONE.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You have given away so much information. I totally understand that there are some things that you need to be paid for. Thank you for helping so many archers.

I hope that the op will continue to up date about her progress over the year. It is a joy for me to see someone doing so well.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Current assignment is PATTERN analysis.
> 
> There are ANSWERS in the hole pattern.
> 
> I have been teaching LadyBowhunter12 PATTERN analysis, from DAY ONE.


It looks like all shots were center/right hits. Either the sight is off a touch or other things still at play. But for the most part, she is holding steady and shooting consistently which is the most important thing in order to track. She is doing very well. 41 x's is showing good concentration.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fletched said:


> It looks like all shots were center/right hits. Either the sight is off a touch or other things still at play. But for the most part, she is holding steady and shooting consistently which is the most important thing in order to track. She is doing very well. 41 x's is showing good concentration.


The sight windage would be a band-aid fix.

There are other, more FUNDAMENTAL issues that need work here.


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## Lu_45 (Oct 6, 2014)

Congratulations!! Thank you for sharing, have learned quite a bit from this thread. Thank you.
Lu


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## drturi (Jul 24, 2010)

Only thing I see is you need to level out your shoulders, your right shoulder is higher than drop left. This will force your bow hand down causing your sight pin to drop below the bulls eye.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> The sight windage would be a band-aid fix.
> 
> There are other, more FUNDAMENTAL issues that need work here.


Just curious, what scope or sight is she using?


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> The sight windage would be a band-aid fix.
> 
> There are other, more FUNDAMENTAL issues that need work here.


Agree, more likely a form issue,.. mental and/or follow through.


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## cmhall14 (Apr 8, 2013)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I did it guys! Scored my first 300 last night!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats! Awesome shooting!


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## sbbow (Jan 22, 2011)

very good read keep it up!!!


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## SW1WoodDE (Aug 10, 2004)

I just want to thank Ladybowhunter12 and Nuts & bolts for letting us follow along with this thread. The insight and amount of work I see being put forth is just awesome. Along with the hard work i see the results. Thanks for sharing your info and your practice progress along the way. I for one am greatly appreciative for what both of you are doing. Keep up the good work, the tools you are learning will last you a lifetime.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Congrats LB! How were your nerves for the last few ends?


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## Xmxer (Jan 1, 2007)

Tagged


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Ned250 said:


> Congrats LB! How were your nerves for the last few ends?


I was very jittery the few ends for sure! 

The stress test has really slowed me down in between shots. I really take my time to recharge my "batteries." And now, not purposely, I am the last one on the line to shoot. 

I usually have one arrow left after everyone is done. One round I had three arrows left to shoot all by myself. That was probably my most nervous moment. But my mental training came in to help and I kept my same pace and scored 25-5x that round. Those were some high pressured shots. I don't think I could've pulled that off without the training that I have been doing. I'm not going to lie, I was really proud of that!


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## flyfisher151 (Jan 4, 2008)

This has been a great thread to follow and watch the improvements. Congrats on your first 300. The information Alan has shared has been fantastic. Even though Alan says he doesn't give it out for free, he has given plenty for free to work with. Thanks to the both of you for sharing this journey.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

You should be proud of that! Performing under pressure is what seperates the best from the great. Glad to see your positivness and progression is coming along quite well!


LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I was very jittery the few ends for sure!
> 
> The stress test has really slowed me down in between shots. I really take my time to recharge my "batteries." And now, not purposely, I am the last one on the line to shoot.
> 
> I usually have one arrow left after everyone is done. One round I had three arrows left to shoot all by myself. That was probably my most nervous moment. But my mental training came in to help and I kept my same pace and scored 25-5x that round. Those were some high pressured shots. I don't think I could've pulled that off without the training that I have been doing. I'm not going to lie, I was really proud of that!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Welllllllll, I messed up today at the shoot... I accidentally shot one arrow into the top target on round 8. I was suppose to be shooting bottom. It was a really good shot at least though.

I finished with 293-42x. With the missed arrow it would've been 298-43x. So I made a new high score with my x count! 

The two shots in the blue I THINK were part of my endurance. They both happened towards the end. 

We warmed up with 10 arrows and didn't have a break at half time so I think my body was just not used to shooting so many arrows in a row without a longer break. But this will be something that I will just have to get used to. 

Other than the two bad shots, I felt very comfortable and relaxed today! I think finally get a 300 let some pressure off me. I didn't feel very nervous at all really. My shots seemed a lot more consistent and my focus on the target was right on. 

I'm really proud of where I am at right now with my shooting and form. I feel so comfortable in the shot and relaxed. I'm sure it will get even better too with the help of Nuts&Bolts. Just need to keep on with my training and constantly hit out the x. 

Here's my final target with my 10 extra warm up shots... My warm up shots didn't seem to be as good as my actual scoring shots.


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## BMWrider (Sep 26, 2014)

Very nice job! We're all rooting for you.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Keep up the good work, LB. You're just scratching the surface of your potential.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Welllllllll, I messed up today at the shoot... I accidentally shot one arrow into the top target on round 8. I was suppose to be shooting bottom. It was a really good shot at least though.
> 
> I finished with 293-42x. With the missed arrow it would've been 298-43x. So I made a new high score with my x count!
> 
> ...


I know N&B is working on what your target is telling you....

Looks like you need more rest between shots, top left in guessing is the first shot, looks strong. Than they start opening up progressively. 

I've done a lot of work on this subject and it's amazing what a target will tell you. 

Awesome job, keep it up


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Starting to think that I love indoor spots more than 3D shooting... I'm having a lot of fun with it!


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## Mennes (Sep 4, 2014)

Nuts and bolts is there a minimum age for an archer that you are willing to work with?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Mennes said:


> Nuts and bolts is there a minimum age for an archer that you are willing to work with?


Send me a pm message
or an email (see signature below)
and we can discuss details.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Check it out, my sister finally got her Christmas present in! Her first compound bow. Have a few things for her to work on but she looks pretty decent for her first time shooting a compound. She also had pretty decent groups at 5 yards. I'm so excited to work with her!









Just had to update yall with that hehe


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## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

That's awesome


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

You know the drill. Stand up straight, arrow level, and no bend in bow arm. New picture.

Haha jk it's great to see her involved!


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## Lu_45 (Oct 6, 2014)

That is great!!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Check it out, my sister finally got her Christmas present in! Her first compound bow. Have a few things for her to work on but she looks pretty decent for her first time shooting a compound. She also had pretty decent groups at 5 yards. I'm so excited to work with her!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You will be a GREAT coach.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Bowtechforlife said:


> You know the drill. Stand up straight, arrow level, and no bend in bow arm. New picture.
> 
> Haha jk it's great to see her involved!


Haha! Oops I forgot... My bad ;D


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

She looks like a natural! And she will have a top notch coach.


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## DedDeerWalking (Dec 10, 2009)

That's awesome. What release is that? Thinking about getting my daughter set up in the next year or so.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

DedDeerWalking said:


> That's awesome. What release is that? Thinking about getting my daughter set up in the next year or so.


Carter Target Master II. It's my old one and it's kinda big but it works for now until I find something smaller. She really likes it though! She does pretty well it too.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Check it out, my sister finally got her Christmas present in! Her first compound bow. Have a few things for her to work on but she looks pretty decent for her first time shooting a compound. She also had pretty decent groups at 5 yards. I'm so excited to work with her!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL this pic is magazine worthy


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

That picture is priceless. There are obviously a few things that need tweaking but who cares at this point. The picture is so damn cute i teared up a little. Kids are so precious.

It is so awesome to share something you love with someone you love.

Great work LB12 and N&B's.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

yanny said:


> That picture is priceless. There are obviously a few things that need tweaking but who cares at this point. The picture is so damn cute i teared up a little. Kids are so precious.
> 
> It is so awesome to share something you love with someone you love.
> 
> Great work LB12 and N&B's.


I totally agree! 
I won't rush her with making her have "perfect" form. I want her to have fun but I'll still correct bad habits when I see them. I think it'll make it easier for her when she's older and more serious about shooting. But yeah, my overall goal is for her to have fun!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I totally agree!
> I won't rush her with making her have "perfect" form. I want her to have fun but I'll still correct bad habits when I see them. I think it'll make it easier for her when she's older and more serious about shooting. But yeah, my overall goal is for her to have fun!


Balloons are my secret when working with kids your sister's age.

I put a LOT of balloon, all bunched together.

Kids, teenagers, adults,
even a whole group of corporate PhDs...(software types)..corporate group training events
have a boatload of fun, just popping balloons.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I totally agree!
> I won't rush her with making her have "perfect" form. I want her to have fun but I'll still correct bad habits when I see them. I think it'll make it easier for her when she's older and more serious about shooting. But yeah, my overall goal is for her to have fun!


Agreed. No rush.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Balloons are my secret when working with kids your sister's age.
> 
> I put a LOT of balloon, all bunched together.
> 
> ...


Oh very good idea. She will LOVE this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Oh very good idea. She will LOVE this.


When I work with BOYS your sister's age...

I shoot with them
and I make my arrow just SKIM the edge of the arrow to make the balloon WIGGLE.

I ALWAYS, somehow let the BOY student break the FIRST balloon
and I ALWAYS let them know that they are shooting JUST GREAT.

After the BOY student breaks maybe 2 balloons,
I might catch up and bust only 1 balloon. YOu know, to keep it exciting.

When they bust ALL of their balloons,
then,
I get the parents and have a KODAK moment, photo op.

Maybe even get the range owner to give out coupons/tickets for ice cream,
cuz the student shot REALLY REALLY well.


----------



## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

I enjoy popping bubble wrap.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

This has been a ridiculously informative thread.


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

My wife and 3 year old daughter won't shoot with me unless I bring a bag full of balloons. I have to admit I get a real kick out of shooting balloons at long distances. It never gets old.


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

There is nothing like watching a younger child pick up a bow and grow with it. My boys are 7 and 9...and have only been shooting since October...and I found the trick to correcting form is to pick one thing to work on...with only gentle reminders on anything else. In addition...as long as they're getting the arrows out of the bow safely, it was a good shot, lol. They've quickly gone from looking like half cooked pretzels while drawing and shooting...to an average 150 score for indoor 18m JOAD. It won't be long before they're out scoring me .

Their bows have been roughly tuned with Alan's modified method, for windage only...and I even got their draw lengths pretty close as you can see below .










Anyhow...I've been following this thread with intense interest, along with many other of Alan's threads, and I can't begin to express my gratitude for the knowledge he shares so freely. Its gone a very long way towards improving my tuning and shooting skills, as well as that of my entire family.

So, thank you LadyBowhunter for your post, and thank you Alan for letting us follow along. Its much appreciated!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Cris Anderson said:


> There is nothing like watching a younger child pick up a bow and grow with it. My boys are 7 and 9...and have only been shooting since October...and I found the trick to correcting form is to pick one thing to work on...with only gentle reminders on anything else. In addition...as long as they're getting the arrows out of the bow safely, it was a good shot, lol. They've quickly gone from looking like half cooked pretzels while drawing and shooting...to an average 150 score for indoor 18m JOAD. It won't be long before they're out scoring me .
> 
> Their bows have been roughly tuned with Alan's modified method, for windage only...and I even got their draw lengths pretty close as you can see below .
> 
> ...


Very very nice.
Better than many adults, I see at first.

18 meters is a LOOONG ways for their age group.

Shouldn't they be shooting 9 meters (10 yards)?


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## Cris Anderson (Oct 22, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Very very nice.
> Better than many adults, I see at first.
> 
> 18 meters is a LOOONG ways for their age group.
> ...


Thanks Alan! All things considered, I think they're doing pretty well also!

On the distance...the JOAD coaches told me my older son had to shoot from 20yds at 9yrs old. Being that their size, strength, and coordination is pretty close...and that my youngest would never accept shooting from a shorter distance than his brother...we decided to let him shoot from the same distance. He does alright I think. The first picture below was his 20yd, 6 arrow 'tuning' group (I find it easier to see trends in shot placement at their level with more shots lol) after adjusting his bow last night to account for growth. The second was his first two arrows after bumping the rest about 1/16 left, and the 20yd pin about the same down:



















He was soooo proud of himself lol! I made sure to stress to him that the additional concentration he used...along with getting his index finger wrapped around the release, then smoothly pulling through were major contributors to the shot. He nodded and told me he could 'feel' the difference...at 7yrs old! I thought it was pretty great.

Anyhow...I didn't mean to derail the thread at all. But thank you both again. I'm betting that if a guy like me, that just picked up a bow a few months ago (I only score 270 avg on a 300 Vegas target from 20)...can coach his kids to shoot this well this early...LadyBowhunter's sister should be breaking nocks daily in pretty short order .


----------



## strikerII (Feb 1, 2004)

chevman said:


> I hinestly dont know anything about your form or anyone elses for that matter. I have looked at alot of these hows my forum threads and Nuts and Bolts is good enough to help everyone out. The thing that i found interesting about your thread is...no one told you what kind of picture is needed for a good evaluation, yet you have a perfect picture right down to the tape on the wall. I have to laugh to myself how so many adults come on...are told what kind of pic is needed and yet they just dont get it. GOOD FOR YOU young lady. I am sure help will be on its way soon and good luck to you. P.S. Your forum looks perfect to me. How are you shooting?


Excellent comment and post from chevman for a younger archer. This is what I like about AT when there are positive posts like this to *HELP* fellow archers. 
I agree she looks good and if you are shooting well, keep at it!!!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Shot a 237-15x tonight! We shot a 450 Vegas...


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## MiniJCW (Apr 27, 2014)

237 does not sound right for a 450 round just by looking at your target face. If you were to shoot all 9's on a Vegas 450 then you would have a score of 405, and you would have none in the 10 ring, but you clearly have marks in the 10 ring and x ring. looking at your target i would assume if you shot a 450 vegas round then the score would be more likely 437 rather than 237?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MiniJCW said:


> 237 does not sound right for a 450 round just by looking at your target face. If you were to shoot all 9's on a Vegas 450 then you would have a score of 405, and you would have none in the 10 ring, but you clearly have marks in the 10 ring and x ring. looking at your target i would assume if you shot a 450 vegas round then the score would be more likely 437 rather than 237?


Correct.
Typo on LadyBowhunter12's part.

*She shot a 437-15X...450 round.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Shot a 237-15x tonight! We shot a 450 Vegas...


*LadyBowhunter12 shot a 437, with 15Xs.....for a 450 Vegas round.*


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

MiniJCW said:


> 237 does not sound right for a 450 round just by looking at your target face. If you were to shoot all 9's on a Vegas 450 then you would have a score of 405, and you would have none in the 10 ring, but you clearly have marks in the 10 ring and x ring. looking at your target i would assume if you shot a 450 vegas round then the score would be more likely 437 rather than 237?


Oh my, I always do that


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Fantastic, great, wonderful, and magnificent. That is some great shooting. I hope that you are still the last one leaving the line so that your muscles can re energize after each shot. 

You are a star.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

One thing that I really think has helped my consistency is this d loop kisser that Nuts&Bolts recommended to me. It's so simple but very effective. Some of you might want to try it out.


----------



## Finq (Jul 12, 2009)

How do you secure the position of the dloop-knot on the string? It doesn't look tied in?


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Finq said:


> How do you secure the position of the dloop-knot on the string? It doesn't look tied in?


I cinched it down real tight and then I also used serving and tied knots above and below it. That picture isnt of my bow. I can take pic when i get home to show what I did.


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## Finq (Jul 12, 2009)

Okay, I can picture it that way. 
I tried this last week and just assumed it would stay right there where I tied it initially, well it turned out it'd rather go up where my peep sits after each shot. ;D And I didn't take any serving thread with me to tie it in place. 
Off to a fresh start then, I always liked the idea of the dloop kisser button. The rubber ones I had always broke after a couple of weeks and at some point I got tired of replacing them.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Finq said:


> Okay, I can picture it that way.
> I tried this last week and just assumed it would stay right there where I tied it initially, well it turned out it'd rather go up where my peep sits after each shot. ;D And I didn't take any serving thread with me to tie it in place.
> Off to a fresh start then, I always liked the idea of the dloop kisser button. The rubber ones I had always broke after a couple of weeks and at some point I got tired of replacing them.


Yeah I couldnt ever find a comfortable kisser button. I like this one because its simple and not too big.


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## BigShow (Sep 4, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Shot a 237-15x tonight! We shot a 450 Vegas...


Excellent LB12, you are making great progress in a short time. Your hard work and effort now, will pay off for years to come. Not just in archery, these same principles of cause and effect can be applied throughout life. 

Congratulations!!


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

I have been using a kisser for years on all my rigs. It is just one more reference point that helps keep your anchor and site alignment rock solid. I don't use d-loop material though, I just use serving. I wax the serving material and tie super knots and cinch them down tight. I work from the d-loop side and work my way up towards the peep with roughly 5 super knots. I then start working my way back down tying new super knots over top of the old ones. The knot ends up much smaller than what I see in your pictures, adds next to no weight on the string and it is soft on your lips. When I am done tying it it doesn't move unless I force it to. Once it is set it stays put. It ends up just a little smaller than a brass knock set.

As a hunter, I always match my peep sight to my sight ring. This allows me to tell if I am misaligned. If the full sight ring isn't completely visible through my peep I know something isn't right. Just one more thing to help with consistency. Do Target shooters use peeps that match up with the ring on their scopes? I really know very little about target shooting and setups.


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

yanny said:


> As a hunter, I always match my peep sight to my sight ring. This allows me to tell if I am misaligned. If the full sight ring isn't completely visible through my peep I know something isn't right. Just one more thing to help with consistency. Do Target shooters use peeps that match up with the ring on their scopes? I really know very little about target shooting and setups.


That is one way to go about it. I tend to do it a little different; small housing (39mm), max extension, a peep so small I do NOT see the housing (usually orange / red, or I paint it that way). I kind of suck at it, but it aims better to actually start with the peep on target, then bring the dot down into the peep, keeping the peep centered.

With rifles, I bring the dot on target and then put the bracket into it. With bows, this absolute works poorly for me. My eyes don't mind a super tiny peep and it seems to help me aim better.

But as always, whatever works for you, don't try to rewire your brain too much, it will not help.

Congrats LBh12! That is great shooting!


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## yanny (Mar 7, 2011)

I bought a used bow that had a small peep years ago for hunting. A deer walked in a full half an hour before dark, I could not even attempt a shot because I couldn't see the deer or my sight through the peep. I switched to a much larger 1/4" meta peep and found it matched my sight ring perfectly. The difference in low light visibility was unbelievable.

Sorry to stray from the thread but thought this tid bit might help somebody.


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## biblethumpncop (May 14, 2004)

I used Alan as an on-line coach last year, right before I went to Vegas. His methods make sense! I was re-invigorated the past couple of days, reading this post. Excellent coach and an excellent student! 

It made me start the stress tests at 2 yards, then 4 yards. My 12 year old daughter wanted to try as well, so I had her working on 2 yards tonight. She was a little sporatic, but as LB12 stated, she got into a groove and calmed down. Her arrows began to punch the same hole. That got her pumped, until she started to fatigue around the 23 arrow mark.

Keep up the great work LB12! Alan, thanks for all your help! You are right- by training the student how to set up the bow, tweak the cables and focus, they can reproduce the techniques again and again. Great stuff!


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## jpoire (Sep 18, 2012)

Great thread tagged for later


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## dlehnert (Dec 17, 2014)

tagged


----------



## familyfriendly (Feb 26, 2012)

tag


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## Manitoulin (Oct 15, 2013)

Great post. Young lady you are well on your way in this sport! Someday you will be doing the coaching!


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## bowtech2 (Apr 7, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> As I suspected....SKY high d-loop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a stupid question. But u just move that d-loop up or down to level the arrow right? U don't need to mess with the rest do u?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtech2 said:


> This is a stupid question. But u just move that d-loop up or down to level the arrow right? U don't need to mess with the rest do u?


FIND a piece of print paper
FIND a business card
FIND a carpenter's square
FIND a speed square
FIND a drafting plastic square.

ALL of these things have a 90 degree corner.

USE the 90 degree corner
and see if the 90 degree corner FITS the arrow tube and the bowstring.

MOVE the d-loop UP and see if you get a 90 degree angle between the bowstring and the arrow.

MOVE the d-loop 2-inches HIGHER and see if you get a 90 degree angle.
NOT sure?

MOVE the d-loop up 4 inches HIGHER and see if you get a 90 degree corner.

IF moving the d-loop UP higher and higher and higher does NOT get you THIS result...

well
ummm
might try going DOWN.

You have a 50/50 chance to guess WHAT direction to move the d-loop

UP the string
or
DOWN the string

to get a 90 degree angle of separation
between the bowstring and the arrow.

You could also use a STRING level.



Balance a string level on the arrow tube.

When the bubble is in the middle of the lines on the string level,
that means your arrow tube is now horizontal....when you have BOTH limb pockets of your bow touching a VERTICAL WALL.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

bowtech2 said:


> This is a stupid question. But u just move that d-loop up or down to level the arrow right? U don't need to mess with the rest do u?


The ARROW rest...

we must pick a STARTING vertical height.

I explain ALL of this in GREAT DETAIL in my DVD.

I notice YOU have not signed up for my DVD.

You may want to sign up for my DVD.

See this thread...for instructions about how to get my DVD, a 3 hr, 37 minute shooting and tuning DVD,
for $25 USD, plus mailing costs...the PRE-ORDER price,
if you send me an email VERY VERY soon.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1979689&page=214


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

New X count high score today at the shoot!









299-47x. Had an additional warm up shot in the blue. 

Didn't have great focus and felt tense in the beginning. That's where I dropped one way in the blue on the 3rd round. I for sure wasn't going to let that happen again and came back with better shots and focus after my bad end. 









Had a great day Shootin though!


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

That is some more great, fantastic, and marvelous shooting. 

It is to late for you to be up get to bed and get that beauty sleep. You are going to need your rest to keep up this training pace. 

Have a good night.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> New X count high score today at the shoot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


woooo HOOOO!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

jim p said:


> That is some more great, fantastic, and marvelous shooting.
> 
> It is to late for you to be up get to bed and get that beauty sleep. You are going to need your rest to keep up this training pace.
> 
> Have a good night.


HA!

I got the day off Monday so I'll get plenty of sleep AND time to shoot!


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> HA!
> 
> I got the day off Monday so I'll get plenty of sleep AND time to shoot!


If it wasn't for 3 off rounds, you would have been on par for a 300 52x score. Your 299 47x is good but you shot better than your score reflects. You are now crossing the threshold. Your grouping is getting tighter and more consistent. Your second half was stronger than your first which means your stamina is strong. Start strong, end strong. You are doing very well and improving each time.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

very nice!


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## Eric.McCall (Dec 26, 2013)

tag


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## Bowguy867 (Nov 6, 2014)

I can only mirror what's been said. Maybe just maybe your draw is a touch long but your form looks great, someone has shown you right!


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## foland20 (Apr 8, 2012)

Tagged. Awesome thread gonna start a 2yrd stress test tomorrow


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

KC Pro Am this weekend! I feel pretty confident in myself and my setup. I don't know how I'll feel come Saturday afternoon when I'm on the line. Im hoping I won't be nervous and tense but rather relaxed and focused. I know all I have to do is focus on each shot and shoot it like in practice. 

One great thing that I believe my mental training has taught me to do is to move on from a bad shot and to bring my focus on to the next shot. 

This seems so simple but for me it's kinda difficult. I had trouble with worrying and getting frustrated with a bad shot while shooting a new shot. This would just destroy my focus for the next shot. Another thing that I would do is try harder on that next shot. Trying harder also destroys my focus on making a clean, relaxed shot.

So what I have found is that after a bad shot now, I will move on from it, but trust me, it still frustrates me. But I make sure on the next shot, that my brain is refreshed and clear, and then I shoot a brand new shot. A new shot that is relaxed and focused. 

This is just ONE of the great things I have learned. This was one of my biggest issues and now it is improving! Hopefully eventually I won't even have to worry about making a bad shot hehe


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

You have been taught well and your training has sharpened your skills. When you are on the line shooting, your training will take over and carry you. Have confidence in your training and let your light shine when you are on the line. You have been trained to destroy X's. Show no mercy.


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## v5cvbb (Feb 1, 2011)

Doesn't mater if it's a test or a championship you just do your thing just as you've done in practice. I'm crap with a bow but I've spent plenty of time on the line competing. Just execute and the results will be what they will be. It's not life or death. Best thing you can do during a competition is shut your conscious mind off and just observe. The following quote sums it all up. Best of luck with everything.

When you're betting for stones in an archery contest, you shoot with
skill. When you're betting for fancy belt buckles, you worry about your
aim. And when you're betting for real gold, you're a nervous wreck. Your
skill is the same in all three cases - but because one prize means more to
you than another, you let outside concerns weigh on your mind. He who
looks too hard at the outside gets clumsy on the inside.

-Chuang Tzu


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

Made it through page 9... tagged for tomorrow.


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> The ARROW rest...
> 
> we must pick a STARTING vertical height.
> 
> ...


I'm just going to ask here, for a spoiler on the DVD. (Yes I did sign up)

What if you shoot a blade? Your arrow will be pointing downwards, since more of the shaft is extending past the rest. You will never be able to fit a square angle, due to the flexing blade.
What if you shoot a drop away, that isn't at full extension at brace? (even when contained, e.g. a QAD) 

And I don't mean to get into the "correct rest height" just yet, because then it would be full on tuning. Wouldn't you need to evaluate this all at full draw on a drawboard? Without the square angle that is, since well, the bow string isn't straight and all that. In that case, a bubble level on the shelf and a bubble level on the arrow are the right way to go about this right?

Those things considered, what if you anchor relatively low, with a handheld release and pull the loop stretching a little upwards. Or are shooting a wrist release, pulling it slightly down, so the loop doesn't point to 3 o'clock with the arrow pointing at 9, but rather at the 4 position?


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I am pretty sure that nuts & bolts gave you some mental tips on how to shoot in competition. Just use his tips and all will be great.


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## mike hogan (Nov 22, 2007)

v5cvbb said:


> Doesn't mater if it's a test or a championship you just do your thing just as you've done in practice. I'm crap with a bow but I've spent plenty of time on the line competing. Just execute and the results will be what they will be. It's not life or death. Best thing you can do during a competition is shut your conscious mind off and just observe. The following quote sums it all up. Best of luck with everything.
> 
> When you're betting for stones in an archery contest,
> skill. When you're betting for fancy belt buckles, you worry about your
> ...


Good post


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Unicron said:


> I'm just going to ask here, for a spoiler on the DVD. (Yes I did sign up)
> 
> What if you shoot a blade? Your arrow will be pointing downwards, since more of the shaft is extending past the rest. You will never be able to fit a square angle, due to the flexing blade.
> What if you shoot a drop away, that isn't at full extension at brace? (even when contained, e.g. a QAD)
> ...


Please start a new thread about BLADE arrow rests.
See "splitting hairs with allen"...thread by 60435. I explain blade rests in that thread.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Ended today with a 344 for 5 spot which is tied for first in my class! Shooting Vegas face tomorrow


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Ended today with a 344 for 5 spot which is tied for first in my class! Shooting Vegas face tomorrow


Well done.
WOOOO HOOOO!


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## A-Max (Sep 20, 2011)

You shot well today Ladybowhunter. I stayed and watched the 3:00pm line thru 7 ends and your target looked good. When you miss an X, and it leaves a big black hole out in all that white of the five ring it can sometimes lead to subsequent arrows being drawn that way. Especially when shooting a pin like you are. It acts almost magnetic it seems. What you might want to try sometime is to fix that hole in the target. Fold the shot thru paper back to where it belongs and you will not be able to see that miss at 20 yds. Just a thought.

Great shooting.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

A-Max said:


> You shot well today Ladybowhunter. I stayed and watched the 3:00pm line thru 7 ends and your target looked good. When you miss an X, and it leaves a big black hole out in all that white of the five ring it can sometimes lead to subsequent arrows being drawn that way. Especially when shooting a pin like you are. It acts almost magnetic it seems. What you might want to try sometime is to fix that hole in the target. Fold the shot thru paper back to where it belongs and you will not be able to see that miss at 20 yds. Just a thought.
> 
> Great shooting.


Thanks for the advice! 

I do need to do that. My top left target either had arrows in the middle or low right. I had a big hole low right and I think that might be part of my problem for that target. I will try this out!


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

You might want to check with the people at the shoot about repairing target holes . Some shoots do not allow this. They will depending on the shoot allow you to replace the target and this can be another option.
Nice shooting today and good luck tomorrow.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

wv hoyt man said:


> You might want to check with the people at the shoot about repairing target holes . Some shoots do not allow this.
> Nice shooting today and good luck tomorrow.


Well I saw other people do it but I honestly didn't know why...

And thanks!


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I hope that you are having a great time. Stay positive and shoot X's.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

I added to my post some more info in that you may be allowed to replace the target also so that you may not be drawn to a hole or holes that will draw your focus too.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Well I choked today haha! Didn't shoot as good as I could've. Shot a 302 with two in the red :/ Ended up having a three way tie for second place and had to do a shoot off. I shot 11, 11, 10 for warm up shots and then choked and shot 9, 9, 9 and went into 4th place. I need some more practice on the Vegas target for sure! I actually was happy with my shooting just wish I could take back my two shots in the red. It was a great time anyways!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Well I choked today haha! Didn't shoot as good as I could've. Shot a 302 with two in the red :/ Ended up having a three way tie for second place and had to do a shoot off. I shot 11, 11, 10 for warm up shots and then choked and shot 9, 9, 9 and went into 4th place. I need some more practice on the Vegas target for sure! I actually was happy with my shooting just wish I could take back my two shots in the red. It was a great time anyways!


VERY good shooting.
It ONLY gets better.


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## dmoose66 (Jan 17, 2014)

Great shooting ! Don't be disappointed awesome shooting for your first year . Shows a lot of maturity , e specialy at your age .


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Archery is a mental game once you have the mechanics ironed out. You may have not done your best but you did not choke. You never allow yourself to entertain negative thoughts. You will do better in your next competition. You will build on your success and become even more successful.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.


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## dwilli05 (Dec 21, 2014)

ttt


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

So here's kind of an update...after playing with cables with my bow, we found that my control wasn't long enough for what I wanted to achieve. 

Soooooo I had the choice of getting a new control cable or playing with my grip thickness to get what I needed. So I decided to do the grip thickness for now.

One good thing out of this is that Dec 1 i got to order myself a new shooter bow! I chose to get a Nitrum Turbo... In purple ️ 

Anyways, the good part is that I got to use this bow to experiment with cables and to learn how to find the perfect match. SO when I get my new bow, I'll be able to do my tests and set it up where it needs to be pretty quickly and just shoot the dang thing.

Once I do get my new bow where it needs to be, you guys will be seeing my stress test results again and hopefully we all can start learning some more things from the results... 

Well that's kinda my explanation for a purple bow suddenly and why my stress test results haven't been on here in awhile.


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## Crapshot (Oct 18, 2013)

Sounds like your learning how to tune too. Looks like we got the up and coming Nuts&Bolts JR here. 

Love it and great thread Lady B. Think you got a lot of people pumped with your progress and great attitude. You did me.


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## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

Keep up the good work. This has been such a great thread. Thanks for sharing your journey.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Alright got the bow halfway setup tonight! Tomorrow I'm going to start testing my DL.


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## Trevor02TA (Sep 8, 2009)

YIKES!!! Stunning rig. Hope you get it all dialed in for yourself.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Fine looking bow! I happen to have one of these as well


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## Etheis (Sep 28, 2013)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Alright got the bow halfway setup tonight! Tomorrow I'm going to start testing my DL.


Sweet looking rig!


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## Bowtechforlife (Apr 17, 2014)

I thought you said your were getting a violet bow? Looks great though!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Alright got the bow halfway setup tonight! Tomorrow I'm going to start testing my DL.


Nice......VERY nice.

Now, go nail some x-rings!


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## hometownhero (Aug 27, 2013)

Bowtechforlife said:


> I thought you said your were getting a violet bow? Looks great though!


She was but they sent her that silver one so instead of waiting weeks for another one she opted to keep that one.


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

That silver is awesome!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Bowtechforlife said:


> I thought you said your were getting a violet bow? Looks great though!


Hoyt sent me wrong color about a week ago then told me they would send Violet in 2-3 weeks. I guess something happened bc now they're saying 5-6 weeks. I ordered December 1 and I feel like I have waited loooooong enough. So I decided to keep the silver! I was just ready to shoot it!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Nice......VERY nice.
> 
> Now, go nail some x-rings!


Yup, time to get this thing perfect and just shoot out targets!


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## TCClevenger85 (Dec 11, 2014)

Should we assume that this thread has seen its last days?


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## bgreenlee (Sep 16, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Hoyt sent me wrong color about a week ago then told me they would send Violet in 2-3 weeks. I guess something happened bc now they're saying 5-6 weeks. I ordered December 1 and I feel like I have waited loooooong enough. So I decided to keep the silver! I was just ready to shoot it!


One nice thing about living in Salt Lake, had they sent me the wrong bow I'd drive the three miles there to throw a fit! 

The silver looks super sharp. Can't wait to see the results.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

All I know is that I will still be working on my shooting and continuing my training! I'm learning so much and it's making me better so why stop? Guess I'm just more open to new things than others.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You are at a wonderful stage of life where your brain will absorb information like a sponge. Keep asking questions and seeking information about your shooting and about all the other things that are of interest to you.

Love God, stay positive, and have a fantastic life.


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## mike hogan (Nov 22, 2007)

TCClevenger85 said:


> Should we assume that this thread has seen its last days?


Why should we assume that? Because some people decided to bash? I've enjoyed this post and the advice n & b has had to say,,,keep shooting lady b and keep us up to date !


----------



## flyfisher151 (Jan 4, 2008)

mike hogan said:


> Why should we assume that? Because some people decided to bash? I've enjoyed this post and the advice n & b has had to say,,,keep shooting lady b and keep us up to date !


Yes please continue to post your success of scores and training.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I believe I'm about ready to start the tests up again with my new bow. Today I want to make sure I have my bow right where I want it and then I'll try a 2 yard test tomorrow if everything goes good today. 

This bow seems so much different from my last one so I believe I could get any result at 2 yards. This is why I want to restart the tests...


----------



## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

it's good to see how interested you are in getting better keep it up and hope to see ya on the big stage some day.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

Tag


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## dwilli05 (Dec 21, 2014)

Shes purrrty in silver


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Shot my first 5 spot tonight with my new bow and shot 300-42x... which is my second 300 ever! Looks like I'm going to have a good future with this bow! So far it is a fun bow to shoot.


----------



## BMWrider (Sep 26, 2014)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Shot my first 5 spot tonight with my new bow and shot 300-42x... which is my second 300 ever! Looks like I'm going to have a good future with this bow! So far it is a fun bow to shoot.


Giddy up!


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Outstanding!!!


----------



## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

Atta girl! Way to go!


----------



## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Great shooting and a very nice looking bow.


----------



## Wichhart (Oct 2, 2014)

Way to go.


----------



## A-Max (Sep 20, 2011)

Good shooting Bailey. It was a pleasure shooting with you all tonight.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks guys!


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

A-Max said:


> Good shooting Bailey. It was a pleasure shooting with you all tonight.


Yes it was a good night of shooting. I'm excited to see what I can do with that blade rest tomorrow! Hope to shoot with you again.


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You are doing great.


----------



## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I don't know who did it but thank you to whoever paid for my DVD. That is very nice of you!


----------



## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

great shooting and a sweet looking rig.


----------



## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

I dont know Baily...that bow looks sharp. I think you two are going to get along just fine.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Setup a blade rest with Nuts&Bolts kitchen table method today. I think I did pretty good! First time using a blade rest and I like it so far.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Go and tune it in for a few shots and then show us another great target all shot up.


----------



## DedDeerWalking (Dec 10, 2009)

Nice work!!


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

excellent looking bow, It will be an X burner!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Well here it is, my best Vegas target! Tonight we shot a Vegas 450 and I ended the night with 444-27x. I ended up second over all. Kinda fun to beat some of the guys hehe


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Well here it is, my best Vegas target! Tonight we shot a Vegas 450 and I ended the night with 444-27x. I ended up second over all. Kinda fun to beat some of the guys hehe


VERY well done.

It ONLY gets BETTER from here.


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You just keep getting better and better. Thanks for sharing. 

You are very talented and the other shooters are just going to have to improve if they want to keep up with you.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> VERY well done.
> 
> It ONLY gets BETTER from here.


Forgot to mention that on the top/center target, I shot pretty inconsistently when I shot bottom the first half. But after halftime, when we switched bottom target to the top, I didn't miss the ten ring on the top/center target at all. The bow held VERY good when I shot the second half. Thought that was pretty interesting. I think I MIGHT know why.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Forgot to mention that on the top/center target, I shot pretty inconsistently when I shot bottom the first half. But after halftime, when we switched bottom target to the top, I didn't miss the ten ring on the top/center target at all. The bow held VERY good when I shot the second half. Thought that was pretty interesting. I think I MIGHT know why.


Take video of yourself, shooting the bottom row, top center target
and you will SEE what you are doing.

Then,
try and fix it,
and see what happens.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Keeps getting better


----------



## crowinghen (Oct 2, 2011)

tagged for a great thread!


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

So I guess that the blade rest is working pretty good.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

jim p said:


> So I guess that the blade rest is working pretty good.


Yup! I think so. I'm doing a little work with my bareshaft but other than that, it seems to be doing its job!


----------



## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

good shooting keep up the good work.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dschonbrun said:


> Alan, what an archer is doing wrong may not always be visible to them, even on video. It's a matter of experience.
> 
> I think your advice here is missing the component of using a coach to review video, and live shooting, to help a Bailey improve.


You have no idea.
I am Bailey's coach...and I have been teaching Bailey privately, ONLINE....teaching her my methods.

She knows EXACTLY what to look for, and has told me privately, what she thinks she needs to improve.
We have already discussed her analysis, and I suggested she take another video of her shooting...to CONFIRM her suspicions.

Bailey and I regularly use Video for her private coaching with ME. I, as her coach, do freeze frame analysis...and I do my LINES on the still shots
from the FREEZE frame work, to TEACH Bailey how I see what she is doing...that can be improved...

and for Bailey, my philosophy is to teach BAILEY to see how I see a shooter. This is why BAILEY is improving SOOOOO rapidly,
because I have been teaching BAILEY my analysis methods.

Her analysis of what she needs to work on, was 100% correct, which she communicated to be privately.
YOu guys get to see the END results of her training.

So,
once again, Bailey does have a coach...namely ME.

I am guiding Bailey, steering her rapid development.


----------



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You and her seem to be working well together. I don't remember seeing any other coach and student posting such a thread on here. It sure has been inspiring to watch her progress.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> You and her seem to be working well together. I don't remember seeing any other coach and student posting such a thread on here. It sure has been inspiring to watch her progress.


LadyBowhunter12 is doing just fine.

I have been training her how to see, the way I see. I do not just give her...the do this, the do that to fix things.
I explain the how and the why this part of the bow works the way it does.

BUT,
I also have taken LadyBowhunter12 through the more advanced biomechanics of how a SHOOTER's muscles and bones work, and do NOT work.
At the beginning of this thread...

her FIRST question was her BOW SHOULDER did not feel solid. THat is a BIG warning sign. Fixed her form IMMEDIATELY, to get that on the right track ASAP.

After I cleaned up her biomechanics, to get the SHOULDER on the mend...

then,
started working with LadyBowhunter12 on the shot mechanics,
the drills,
and you guys see the RESULTS.

ALL of my methods,
are spread throughout my posts on AT.

With LadyBowhunter12....I ADD a bit more,
teaching her how to think...analyze, problem solve...on her own.

I agree with you.

LadyBowhunter12 is doing just GREAT.


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## wapitibowman (Jan 13, 2006)

dschonbrun said:


> Alan, Bailey is doing great.
> 
> You seem very confident. Can you name the World Champion Archer's you've taught from beginner to winner?


I don't know what your issue is with Alan. Someone asked for help, he is providing that help, and she is doing great! What is the problem? Sounds like you have an issue, not Alan.

If she isn't happy with the results, then she can freely change to a USA archery coach... Like yourself


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Did some experimenting with bareshaft today! I haven't ever done it before so I just did a lot of experimenting, reading here on AT, and some guidance from N&B. I started with this, 








Aiming at middle of target...
And consistently finished with this... Bow wasn't sighted in perfectly.








Learned lots from experimenting! Played with up/down and left/right adjustments on rest, yokes, and my control cable.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Did some experimenting with bareshaft today! I haven't ever done it before so I just did a lot of experimenting, reading here on AT, and some guidance from N&B. I started with this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WELL DONE, LadyBowhunter12...

very nicely done.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

wapitibowman said:


> I don't know what your issue is with Alan. Someone asked for help, he is providing that help, and she is doing great! What is the problem? Sounds like you have an issue, not Alan.
> 
> If she isn't happy with the results, then she can freely change to a USA archery coach... Like yourself


Wapiti, Alan is very competent as a bow tuner, and at giving advice on tuning. He's been very generous with his knowledge.
Equipment Tuning is only one component of coaching archery. Physiology, Psychology, and Nutrition are amongst the others. My feeling, based on everything I've seen and read, is that some of his posts and perscriptions extend beyond his training. It's my opinion.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dschonbrun said:


> Wapiti, Alan is very competent as a bow tuner, and at giving advice on tuning. He's been very generous with his knowledge.
> Equipment Tuning is only one component of coaching archery. Physiology, Psychology, and Nutrition are amongst the others. My feeling, based on everything I've seen and read, is that some of his posts and perscriptions extend beyond his training. It's my opinion.


Exactly.
Physiology.
Toxicology.
Vertebral surface anatomy, especially in the cervical area.
MRI and X-Ray and Scanning electron microscopy
Some of the work I have been doing lately.

Equipment tuning is just part of the equation.

Understanding, working with, communicating with your students,
my world-wide student base.

Sigh.

Sooo little understanding.
My students are doing just fine, thank you.

My students are quite satisfied with my understanding of physiology, psychology....

no,
I don't sell supplements.

No need.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I am extremely thankful with the help I am getting. I am better than I ever have been and my shooting keeps improving. I have learned SO much and I just keep on learning new things every day. I love to win and I love to learn... So yes, I am very satisfied with my online training and I want to continue with the work


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## jesses80 (Apr 17, 2011)

that's all that matters is your satisfied with the results your seeing keep it up.


LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I am extremely thankful with the help I am getting. I am better than I ever have been and my shooting keeps improving. I have learned SO much and I just keep on learning new things every day. I love to win and I love to learn... So yes, I am very satisfied with my online training and I want to continue with the work


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I went to coaches corner and asked about coaches certification process. The replies that I got was that there was no organization that certified coaches. 

If there are no organizations that certify coaches, then anyone with the knowledge and experience can be a coach.

I would much rather be coached by someone that knows what they are doing than to be coached by someone that thinks they are a coach because they went and listened to someone talk about coaching. 

The best coach is the one that helps you achieve your goals in the way that you want.

If I am totally wrong just pm me and I will research some more and get back to you. 

Sorry if I have hijacked the thread and I ask again that you pm me so that this thread is not hijacked any further.


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

jim p said:


> I went to coaches corner and asked about coaches certification process. The replies that I got was that there was no organization that certified coaches.
> 
> If there are no organizations that certify coaches, then anyone with the knowledge and experience can be a coach.
> 
> ...



USA Archery has a coaching certificate. Their certificate has 3 Levels. Most youth groups (4H, boy & girl scouts, etc.) require at least a Level 1 cert. Level1 is basic range safety & intro to shooting. Level 2 is more for coaching intermediate shooters. Level 3 is for coaching more advance shooters.


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## wsbark01 (Feb 26, 2009)

Yup I'm a 4H coach and I have my level 1 USA Archery certification.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

jim p said:


> I went to coaches corner and asked about coaches certification process. The replies that I got was that there was no organization that certified coaches.
> 
> If there are no organizations that certify coaches, then anyone with the knowledge and experience can be a coach.
> 
> ...


The advice you got is incorrect. USA Archery certifies coaches, and has a program that you can use to work up through the ranks and become an elite coach for the US national team.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Ray Ray said:


> USA Archery has a coaching certificate. Their certificate has 3 Levels. Most youth groups (4H, boy & girl scouts, etc.) require at least a Level 1 cert. Level1 is basic range safety & intro to shooting. Level 2 is more for coaching intermediate shooters. Level 3 is for coaching more advance shooters.


Incomplete. There are 5 levels. 1 and 2 are designed for group instruction. Level 3 is for indivuals and gets into the National Training System (NTS). Level 4 is for coaches who have experience supporting students who have achieved success on a national level, and may work with the National JOAD and Other programs. Level 5 is for US Archery National Team Coaches who work with the best archers in the world (Coach Lee, for example).


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## erichall84 (Aug 20, 2013)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Did some experimenting with bareshaft today! I haven't ever done it before so I just did a lot of experimenting, reading here on AT, and some guidance from N&B. I started with this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good job ladybowhunter!


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## erichall84 (Aug 20, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Exactly.
> Physiology.
> Toxicology.
> Vertebral surface anatomy, especially in the cervical area.
> ...


Alan, i give you big thanks and appreciate all that you do to help educate and coach so many of us. I know that you dont have to, and you catch a lot of flack for it, but you still offer your advice and try to help fellow archers everyday. Thank you Alan / nuts & bolts.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

dschonbrun said:


> Alan, Bailey is doing great.
> 
> You seem very confident. Can you name the World Champion Archer's you've taught from beginner to winner?


Recently on AT I feel Alan has been getting thrown under the buss and your last few post hit a nerve I guess. 

Alan has taught me everything I know about archery with his posts right here on AT. I paid for his online services once and he showed me how to use ubersense to diagnose form problems. A few weeks ago I had a problem with a new bow getting it to tune the way I wanted. I asked several pros what to do and none of them could or would give me the answers. Alan gave me two suggestions. First he told me to adjust the control cable. Second he said a stiff blade causing a trampoline effect. My daughter was using a 8 thousand blade. So I shaved the blade thinner and walla bare shaft flies with fletch. The very next vegas game she shot was a 299 22x vegas score. She recently shot a personal best 300 53x five spot. My daughter is 14 and just won $700 in scolar ship money in Vegas. Her scores would have beat the division above her. She may not be a world champ but she is doing pretty well thanks to everything ive learned with Alan's advice.

A short 2 second search on your screen name shows even you have relied on Alan's help. "How many twists (nuts and bolts)"

Can you name a student of yours that's a world champ?

Alan is a great asat on archery talk! I'd hate to see him run off


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

dschonbrun said:


> Incomplete. There are 5 levels. 1 and 2 are designed for group instruction. Level 3 is for indivuals and gets into the National Training System (NTS). Level 4 is for coaches who have experience supporting students who have achieved success on a national level, and may work with the National JOAD and Other programs. Level 5 is for US Archery National Team Coaches who work with the best archers in the world (Coach Lee, for example).


Yes it was. I should have said 5 levels, 3 of which you can take classes for.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Shot a 299-47x 5 spot today at the shoot. I went ahead and shot the second line also because it was hard to just watch everyone else shoot hehe. 
The second game I shot 300-47x.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Shot a 299-47x 5 spot today at the shoot. I went ahead and shot the second line also because it was hard to just watch everyone else shoot hehe.
> The second game I shot 300-47x.


GREAT job.

Keep up the good work.
We will get FURTHER into stabilizer setup.


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## wapitibowman (Jan 13, 2006)

The bottom line here - Bailey is doing great!! No need to further beat a very dead horse . . . Congrats to you young lady!


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

tagged


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Great shooting and great stamina shown by shooting two rounds.


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

dschonbrun said:


> Alan, Bailey is doing great.
> 
> You seem very confident. Can you name the World Champion Archer's you've taught from beginner to winner?



Now, that is a measure, isn't it?

So is your premise that only coaches who have taken archers from beginner to World Champion should be able to help archers improve?

How many coaches meet that standard? Not how many have taken archers from beginning to winning at some level -- winning "world" not "national" or "state" or even "club" championships? How many that are coaching world champions have taken those particular archers from the first time those archers picked up a bow?

My first teaching and coaching gig was in 1978. Been teaching both academic and motor skill related activities ever since. Credentials? Aptitude -- willingness to learn how to teach and coach to a wide variety of students -- all with different abilities to absorb information. Analytical mind -- willing to explore the issue to find the underlying root causes rather than just putting band aides on the symptoms. Degrees -- yep, got several of those along the way -- but remarkably, not a single degree from any "status" organization in teaching or coaching. "Certifications?" Yep. Got those too -- but none in archery. Some I earned after going through very competitive selection processes that served as entry barriers. Others, I earned by simply showing up and paying for the classes or after my organization directed me to go through the certification process simply because of the job I was assigned to do.

Have I made a difference (other than simply being a legend in my own mind -- eg possessing an overinflated opinion of myself). Yes, I have seen the lightbulb of understanding go on for students that others thought were lost causes. I have helped change mediocrity into excellence. As part of a huge organization governed at at the national level operating on the global stage and composed of close to a million people overall -- I have challenged the status quo of the way we understood, taught and applied complex guidance across that population. The feedback I've gotten -- "I've read the material hundreds of time over the past 30 years, and I never understood it this way. Thanks for putting it in terms that made it easy for me to understand how my staff and I have misapplied the guidance. Thanks for showing me exactly what we need to do and where we need to go to get better."

Now I think about your measurement criteria. "Can you name the World Champion Archer's [sic] you've taught from beginner to winner?"

And I think about the countless number of "certified teachers" out there with formal degrees in education. I wonder how many of those teachers have taken a student from pre-school to Pulitzer Prize or Nobel Prize.

I also think about the coaches like Butch Harmon, who was coaching Tiger Woods while Tiger was at the top of his game. I'm betting that Harmon wasn't coaching Tiger as he started down the road to the highest levels of golf.

But I will concede your unstated but underlying premise is correct. Not all coaches are equal in ability, and a student may outgrow his coach's ability to help him progress. So what limits the coach? Knowledge? Analytical ability? Keenness in observation? Ability to communicate? Lack of "helpful" equipment?

So, a coach must have the ability to take another's student and move that student into higher levels of performance. What are the chances that one of those "lessor" coaches might have taught the student a bad habit or at least a habit that doesn't mesh with the new coach's approach?

In a similar line of thought, what are the chances that a coach gets to capitalize on the underlying fundamental ground work done by one of those "lessor" coaches?

How easy is it for the coach if he has the freedom and privilege to work with a brand new student -- with no preconceived notions? How much more challenging if he has to "fix" a problem? Given "fixes" -- which is more valuable or enduring? A fix that the coach says, "Don't think; don't question; just do what I'm telling you!" Or a fix that the coach emphasizes discovering the how's and why's that help the student figure out how to fix the problems for himself?


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

tagged


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## gofast (Apr 15, 2011)

shogun1 that was a mouthful and well spoke.


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## MYMAXXIS (Mar 20, 2011)

Kinda like to see this thread get back on track. You guys can go start another coaching thread and battle it out


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## jrandres (Mar 5, 2010)

MYMAXXIS said:


> Kinda like to see this thread get back on track. You guys can go start another coaching thread and battle it out


I would also like this thread to get back on track so we can see more improvement.


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## dblungem (Dec 2, 2008)

The hyjacking and "pay to learn" has turned what was a great thread into a train wreck.

Ladybowhunter - I wish you continued success. Its great to see a young lady involved in our sport with as much talent and drive that you have. Best of luck to you


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## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

Wow, it sounds like you are off to a great start. I really wish I had got into archery when I was your age... but for me, that would have been over 40 years ago...

Listen to Nuts&Bolts... 

Question for others... is it normal for her cables to be at that angle? On most of the bows I've had, the cable slides moved out as I drew back and would move back in toward the bow when I shot, but the cables were always straight??? It also looks like there is another string that is slack. Is that a drop-away string? And should it be slack like that?

And, this is a question for Nuts&Bolts, is her anchor point too low?

Like others have said, great start, good luck and enjoy shooting.

thenson


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

jim p said:


> I went to coaches corner and asked about coaches certification process. The replies that I got was that there was no organization that certified coaches....


That is not correct. The first line of the 2nd post in that thread mentioned USA Archery certification. 

However, I agree with this statement:


jim p said:


> I would much rather be coached by someone that knows what they are doing than to be coached by someone that thinks they are a coach because they went and listened to someone talk about coaching.


Sorry to get off topic, but I don't want you folks to think the guys who post frequently in the Coaches Corner are a bunch of idiots.

Allen


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## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Shot a 299-47x 5 spot today at the shoot. I went ahead and shot the second line also because it was hard to just watch everyone else shoot hehe.
> The second game I shot 300-47x.


Just a couple of things...

First, I am very impressed. Not only with how you are shooting, but with the methodical and scientific approach you are taking. Any thoughts about going into Engineering?
Next, I might be asking you to coach me someday soon...
Lastly, I would like to know your name so I can watch for you when you win at the Indoor Nationals in Louisville. I might even be there to watch you shoot...

Congrats and continue working as hard as you are. Eli Goldratt once said, "The Goal is to Win... but the Race is Never Ending." So is the quest for perfection, never stop learning and always work to improve. When you reach your goal, then take time to teach others to enjoy this sport/passion as much as you do...

The only advice I would give you, and you may already be doing it... but keep a very detailed journal. Document the things you can measure from the setup of you bow, to what you shoot on certain days and certain times. How were you feeling, how did you think you shot. How the shots feel may or may not match what your scores show. Write down what you learn and be very specific on everything you change or try no matter how insignificant they seem at the time. Thing about "Lessons Learned"... What did you learn after you shot great... What did you learn when you struggle the whole shoot... What did you learn when you made this change... How was your mental state or focus during this shoot. Eventually you will learn the conditions under which you shoot the best and under which conditions you felt the best. These conditions could be from equipment, mental, physical or about the environment in which you were shooting. But also try to figure out what conditions give you the most joy...

This is one of the more refreshing and enjoyable threads I've read in a long time.

Thank You "LadyBowhunter12"...

thenson


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Thenson 
that's good advice. My kids equipment changes all the time. Their always playing with weights on their bars, draw lenght, d loop height, twist here twist there. Without notes you will get lost in whats good, whats not so good and what didn't do anything positive or negative. If you took notes it's easy to go back. I'd even suggest saving targets and writing dates, equipment, draw, weights this way you have visual proof.
Taking notes should also include your goals. Not nessarily score wise because that's out come based but goals of what you want to accomplish form wise or a certain feeling in your shot. Then after your game evaluate how you did on your goal. If you work on the goals your scores will improve.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

thenson said:


> Just a couple of things...
> 
> First, I am very impressed. Not only with how you are shooting, but with the methodical and scientific approach you are taking. Any thoughts about going into Engineering?
> Next, I might be asking you to coach me someday soon...
> ...


Thanks for the advice! I do actually have notebooks full of notes. I dont always write my own specs or results down in them though. I have wrote down some things like how many twists in a cable and how its affects the bow but i dont ever keep it. I really am going to start keeping track of all this. Im shooting league tonight so Ill see how my setup does. 
Thanks!


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## MYMAXXIS (Mar 20, 2011)

LBH ... N & B.. Where are you?


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## Brock Lube (Mar 4, 2012)

I was hoping for some updates as well.....


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

I'm shooting state this weekend so I'll be sure to update with my results for Saturday and Sunday. 

Lately I have just been shooting my bow and only tweaking minor, little things to get it where it needs to be. 

I'm feeling very confident in my bow right now. I played a lot with my stabilizers and it's amazing what you can achieve with them when you actually put some quality time into it.

I also worked quite a bit with my d loop. Same thing, it really makes a difference when you put time into it. I feel like I learned quite abit about a d loop's affect on shots. 

So all in all, Im feeling very confident in my bow and I feel that any bad shots that I might have will totally be on me. But I'm not expecting to make bad shots


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> I'm shooting state this weekend so I'll be sure to update with my results for Saturday and Sunday.
> 
> Lately I have just been shooting my bow and only tweaking minor, little things to get it where it needs to be.
> 
> ...


Best of Luck Bailey!


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Shot 297-38x Saturday. I was going good until the last 2 ends where I dropped 3 points. This was lack of focus on my part... finishing before I was actually finished. 

Good news is that I shot a 299-43x on Sunday which isn't my best score but I improved my focus until the end of the game. The fifth arrow shot hit blue which is disappointing. But after that, I had good scoring arrows... I didn't let the bad shot get to me. 

So I finished 4th in Women's freestyle and then my team got first place for the team shoot.


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## flyfisher151 (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for posting. I have enjoyed your progress and thread.


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## pabuck (Feb 8, 2006)

Tagged


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

This has to be one of the better/best threads on this site... guys being helpful and a hard working open minded young lady putting in the work and applying new things... good on all of you :thumbs_up


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## Maine Iceman (May 30, 2012)

grapplemonkey said:


> This has to be one of the better/best threads on this site... guys being helpful and a hard working open minded young lady putting in the work and applying new things... good on all of you :thumbs_up


This could not have been better said.


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

Little back tension: http://youtu.be/S1aHGQ4c5uY

Check out this video of my little sister shooting my back tension. She saw me shooting it and wanted to learn so I let her try it out on a practice rope. Tonight i finally let her try it out on her bow and i think she did pretty good! She obviously isnt totally comfortable with the new release so ignore her funky stance!


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## Dmack (Apr 5, 2011)

That was sweet.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Is this you Bailey? Nice shooting if it is! If it is I'd like to see what you'd shoot with an actual target bow. Could be scary good.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> View attachment 3580130
> 
> Is this you Bailey? Nice shooting if it is! If it is I'd like to see what you'd shoot with an actual target bow. Could be scary good.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Yes thats me haha! I have recently won Kansas City Pro am and the Iowa Pro Am in the female freestyle trophy division this year. So far everything has been going good and I have been meeting a lot of awesome shooters! 

I do have a Pro Comp Elite FX coming soon so we will see how it works for me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

My daughter shoots an FX I think youl like it. What cam did you go with

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> My daughter shoots an FX I think youl like it. What cam did you go with
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


GTX at 65%. It was a real hard choice considering i didnt get to shoot them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Gtx gives you a little bit bigger brace height so it might be more forgiving. My daughter shoots spirals and does well with them.








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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Did you have a chance to shoot the podium 37?

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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> Did you have a chance to shoot the podium 37?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Looks like she has awesome form! I actually did shoot the Podium 37 with Spirals a while back but decided to try the FX. I like the shorter axle to axle for the most part. It was hard to decide!

When i shot those spirals, my release arm was already aching. I think spirals would take me a while to get used to


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Good shooting B! Sky's the limit.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I think when your shooting spirals you need to go down 5 to 7 bow lbs then there not as hard on ya. You also need to shoot them everyday. My daughter shoots 40 lbs and shoots almost everyday in the winter. 

You can set the gtx cams up to feel just like spirals though. I'd actually like to have my daughter try the gtx cams set up in her draw and see which ones she shoots better. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Looks like she has awesome form!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nutts has had a hand in getting her draw length set over the years. She also shoots the stress tests at close range from time to time. We also tune her bare shafts the way nutts suggest. Cant go wrong following his instructions. 


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## dmoose66 (Jan 17, 2014)

Nice shooting Bailey , congrats on the wins !


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> I think when your shooting spirals you need to go down 5 to 7 bow lbs then there not as hard on ya. You also need to shoot them everyday. My daughter shoots 40 lbs and shoots almost everyday in the winter.
> 
> You can set the gtx cams up to feel just like spirals though. I'd actually like to have my daughter try the gtx cams set up in her draw and see which ones she shoots better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Ive heard that also, that you need to shoot them everyday. I do shoot just about everyday so i may want to get them a try in the future. Too bad you dont live close or else id let her try mine out at 25" draw!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LadyBowhunter12 (Jul 2, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> Nutts has had a hand in getting her draw length set over the years. She also shoots the stress tests at close range from time to time. We also tune her bare shafts the way nutts suggest. Cant go wrong following his instructions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Those stress tests sure do help! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

----tied for the lead in affs after first day of Indoor Nats with 300/56.


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

Just saw she took 1st with a 600 111x.


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## TMax27 (Nov 7, 2006)

Congrats, Bailey!!


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

Wow. Congrats!

Sent from my LG-LS995 using Tapatalk


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Awesome

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## Peter from AL (Jan 12, 2016)

Congo-Rats!!!


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## muskykris (Jun 2, 2009)

Right on good 4 you


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