# Form review and help for son



## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

My son is starting to shoot a little more seriously and I am trying to help him do things as close to right as possible. He is working on form now and I am looking for feedback to provide him. He is 12 yo with a 26.5” draw shooting 40 pounds. I see that he is sticking his front hip out but would like feedback on whatever else he needs to focus on. in the past he was anchoring too far behind his ear in order to get the peep sight closer to his eye so it would fit around the front sight so I am going to have him a bigger peep installed to fix that problem. Does the draw length look right? Thanks for the help and hopefully he can be ready to try some 3D this spring. I know he has a ways to go but want to focus on the right things and be consistent. 

Here are a couple pics to critique. ..


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## BearArchery1991 (Jun 23, 2013)

He’s leaned backwards. Draw length is too long. He also isn’t anchoring. Looks like his face is just floating to the side of the string. Get him a kisser button or nose button to help train him with a consistent anchor. Also needs to change his grip. He’s gripping the bow. Needs to be relaxed with knuckles at a 45.


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## BearArchery1991 (Jun 23, 2013)

Also just noticed he’s torquing the bow pretty good. That has to do with his grip.


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## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

For a kisser button or nose button, won't his anchor need to be further back to allow the string to touch the corner of his mouth or nose?


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## Chipalexander (Mar 30, 2017)

outdoorsman89 said:


> For a kisser button or nose button, won't his anchor need to be further back to allow the string to touch the corner of his mouth or nose?


His front hip is kicked out to the left, he is leaning backwards and bow shoulder is up. All a result of incorrect draw length. Once his DL is corrected his release side elbow will also be higher instead of below his ear. In addition, his grip needs to be adjusted for proper location and pressure. Peep will probably need to be adjusted after everything is dialed in. Search for correct posture and hand placement on this site and you will find all kinds of good info, pics and diagrams.


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## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

Would a shorter release also help? It looks to me like there is a lot of room between his right hand and the D-loop. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks again.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

outdoorsman89 said:


> My son is starting to shoot a little more seriously and I am trying to help him do things as close to right as possible. He is working on form now and I am looking for feedback to provide him. He is 12 yo with a 26.5” draw shooting 40 pounds. I see that he is sticking his front hip out but would like feedback on whatever else he needs to focus on. in the past he was anchoring too far behind his ear in order to get the peep sight closer to his eye so it would fit around the front sight so I am going to have him a bigger peep installed to fix that problem. Does the draw length look right? Thanks for the help and hopefully he can be ready to try some 3D this spring. I know he has a ways to go but want to focus on the right things and be consistent.
> 
> Here are a couple pics to critique. ..
> 
> View attachment 7538167












MASSIVE leaning back onto heels.
THIS means 40 lbs is too much draw.
DROp the draw to 30 lbs or even less, so he can put the weight on the balls of his feet, get
weight off the heels of the Crocs and onto the forwards 1/3 of the Crocs.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

outdoorsman89 said:


> Would a shorter release also help? It looks to me like there is a lot of room between his right hand and the D-loop. What are your thoughts on this?
> 
> Thanks again.


Draw length is actually fine. Peep needs moving down, so the nock rises UP to the same height as corner of mouth.
Like this.

Get your son to have his ankles only 6-inches apart
and drop the draw weight to 30 lbs or 25 lbs.

With a draw weight he can actually handle, then, he can stand like THIS.










GRaB the right corner of his pants, top of pants
and PULL his hips away from the target.

With peep set LOWER in the bowstring,
then, the nock can rise HIGHER, the nock can land on the corner of his mouth. With nock higher, cuz peep is LOWER, the string will touch tip of nose.

Same exact draw length, in the doctored photo on the left.

Your son has long arms, so the bow draw length is actually correct.
The HUGE heave forwards on the hips,
is cuz your son has very low upper body strength, near zero core strength,
so he has to HEAVE hips forwards, to swing upper body backwards
to get thru the 40 lb peak draw weight.

DRop draw to 30 lbs or 25 lbs, and then, he will not have to heave ho, with the hips anymore.


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## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

Thanks nuts and bolts and everyone else.

We tried dropping the draw weight, lowering the peep, adjusting grip and raising the nock towards mouth level. It was quite a few changes but overall said he felt fairly comfortable. It is starting to look a little better and I could tell he felt more confident.










Do you see any glaring issues to fix or is this solid enough form to start practicing with and then tweak as we go?

Would a shorter release help? His seems like it may have too long of a stem on it. 

Thanks again.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

outdoorsman89 said:


> Thanks nuts and bolts and everyone else.
> 
> We tried dropping the draw weight, lowering the peep, adjusting grip and raising the nock towards mouth level. It was quite a few changes but overall said he felt fairly comfortable. It is starting to look a little better and I could tell he felt more confident.
> 
> ...


So, if your son absolutely MUST bend his left elbow,
drop the draw another 1.5-inches shorter, to kill the massive leaning backwards.

If your son can shoot a ZERO bend elbow,
then, only drop the draw 1/2-inch shorter, with a STRAIGHT bow arm elbow.

Here is what he will look like,
with the peep even LOWER, so the nock hits corner of his mouth
with the draw 1/2-inch shorter
with a ZERO bend elbow.










If you poke your son in the right armpit, so he cannot lean backwards even more
have your son slide his ankles 12-inches away from the target.

I froze his head in space.
I kept his right armpit in the same spot,
and I oiled his feet, so his feet can slide on the carpet
and pulled his feet 12-inches to his right.

Yellow triangle is the string angle with a half inch shorter draw.
MOving peep down, will bring the nock UP HIGHER
and the shorter draw, will have the string touch tip of nose,
if the nock lands on top of the corner of his mouth.

HALF inch shorter draw
requires the DEAD ZERO bend left elbow
and the shorter draw moves his RIGHT hand CLOSER to the riser,
which is a good thing
and when the RIGHT hand slides FORWARDS, closer to the riser...

tell your son to LIFT his right elbow UP MUCH higher...than before.

Like this.


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## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

Thanks again for the info. We are going to work on it again tomorrow...he was getting tired and a little frustrated especially with getting his right elbow higher by the end of the night. I can def see how shortening the draw a little can help with that. Still working on getting a comfortable anchor with his knuckle at front of ear lobe...he naturally wants to put his hand a good bit lower behind his jaw. We will continue trying to make small improvements.

He appreciates your input and help.


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## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

Should the nock be at the corner of his mouth or should the string cross the corner of his mouth like the last picture that was included above (the one with American flag in the background) or the pic below. 










With the nock at the corner of his mouth, wouldn’t it be impossible to use a kisser button and it seems like the higher the nock is on your face, the harder it is going to be to get your draw arm elbow higher. Just curious because I know having a consistent anchor is obviously very important. Just trying to understand so j can help him better.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

outdoorsman89 said:


> Should the nock be at the corner of his mouth or should the string cross the corner of his mouth like the last picture that was included above (the one with American flag in the background) or the pic below.
> 
> View attachment 7541200
> 
> ...


So, Levi Morgan. Does your son wear the same cap size as Levi Morgan?
So, if we measure the distance from the bottom of chin for Levi to bottom of Levi's nose,
does your son have the same distance from bottom of your son's chin to the bottom of your son's nose?

We are talking skull dimensions here.

Then, Levi Morgan's bow. Is the ATA for Levi Morgan's bow the same as the ATA for your son's bow?










So, I design my advice based on the specific geometry for the shooter, to fine tune the string angle for your son's compound bow, with the skull shape and skull dimensions for your son. Your son has a skull smaller than Levi Morgan, and the ATA on your son's bow does not match the ATA for Levi Morgan.

Levi Morgan is using a HINGE handle release, with a very very short release neck.
Your son is using a wrist strap release with a REALLY LONG release head, so the distance from the knuckles and the wrist is a REALLY LONG distance, between wrist and the trigger.

So, basically the geometry (angles and lengths) for the release hand to the arrow nock is completely different
that for Levi Morgan...not only a different style of release, but a completely different string angle
and a completely different SKULL shape and size.










So, let's look at skull sizing. Levi has the larger head (front to back dimension, and top of skull to bottom of chin).
Your son has a smaller skull volume that Levi.

Levi's bowstring angle is larger slightly, when Levi's bow is at full draw (BIGGER triangle).
Your son's bowstring angle is smaller, slightly, than Levi's bow (sharper angle triangle).

So, when you compare a LARGER skull volume with a LARGER string angle at the d-loop
and
compare to a SMALLER skull volume with a SHARPER string angle (shorter ATA bow)
if the string is gonna touch the tip of nose, the arrow nock has to be HIGHER up the face,
closer to the corner of mouth,
and the draw length (horizontal distance) from d-loop to the riser has to be shorter,
for this geometry to work.

So, for your son's photo,
I would move the peep even LOWER, so the nock rides HIGHER,
so the string can cross corner of mouth, 
combined with the LOWER peep height
would cut the draw length another 1/2-inch SHORTER, and possibly even 1-inch SHORTER,
cuz of the FULL picture analysis.










If your son wants to keep the bend in the elbow,
then, cut the draw 1.5-inches shorter, maybe even 2-inches SHORTER for the draw length.


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## outdoorsman89 (Nov 23, 2003)

Thanks nuts&bolts for the detailed answer. That makes sense. With him starting to shoot, I will likely start back son we can do this together. When I shoot, he watches what I do to see if it is the same as what I tell him. Lol.

Thanks again and I hope we will have some time and decent weather to shoot this week and make some progress.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

1) drop the draw length 1-inch shorter, even more than current photo.










2) head and hips needs to swing FORWARDS, closer to the target 14-16 inches. The 1-inch shorter draw length will help with the massive leaning backwards.

3) with the 1-inch SHORTER draw length, string will not cross corner of mouth. This does NOT mean that the draw length is now too short. With shorter draw length, must also move the peep DOWN the string, and now, magically, the string will cross corner of mouth, with the LOWER peep position, when you drop the draw length another 1-inch SHORTER...to fit the geometry of your son's SKULL, cuz your son's SKULL case is smaller than Levi Morgan's skull case.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

outdoorsman89 said:


> Thanks nuts&bolts for the detailed answer. That makes sense. With him starting to shoot, I will likely start back son we can do this together. When I shoot, he watches what I do to see if it is the same as what I tell him. Lol.
> 
> Thanks again and I hope we will have some time and decent weather to shoot this week and make some progress.


He will get there. It's a learning process to get the bow to fit him.
When bow fits him better, the shooting will automatically get better as well.


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