# Form Check for Newbie



## Marballfire

Hi All,

I am new to archery and looking to start bowhunting. I've been a rifle hunter for years but recently got a hand-me-down bow from my father-in-law and am looking forward to bowhunting.

Being new to the sport, I thought it would be a good approach to try to get my form critiqued before I start developing bad habits. Below is a picture of me in my basement trying to get a picture to post here. The bow is a 1998 PSE Nova V4 with 29"DL. I took it to my local pro shop for a tune up before i started shooting.

I'm 5'8"and wingspan pretty close to the same. Based on the calculations I've seen, this would make my DL a bit long, but it feels comfortable. That being said, if it is having a negative impact on form, I'm open to changes. I am also using a Carter Quckie 1+ as my release, with the nylon cord shortened down just about as far as it goes. That puts my anchor pretty forward on my face compared to a cheap Tru-Fire release I was using previously. The fixed length of the tru-fire was too long and I felt as though I had to pull the trigger with the tip of my finger rather than down at the 2nd knuckle. 

Picture below - I appreciate any advice you folks are willing to give! Thanks in advance!

*Edit* I don't know why the picture won't show up as vertical and keeps turning sideways...any advice there is appreciated too! *Edit AGAIN* - I figured it out...sorry!


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am new to archery and looking to start bowhunting. I've been a rifle hunter for years but recently got a hand-me-down bow from my father-in-law and am looking forward to bowhunting.
> 
> Being new to the sport, I thought it would be a good approach to try to get my form critiqued before I start developing bad habits. Below is a picture of me in my basement trying to get a picture to post here. The bow is a 1998 PSE Nova V4 with 29"DL. I took it to my local pro shop for a tune up before i started shooting.
> 
> I'm 5'8"and wingspan pretty close to the same. Based on the calculations I've seen, this would make my DL a bit long, but it feels comfortable. That being said, if it is having a negative impact on form, I'm open to changes. I am also using a Carter Quckie 1+ as my release, with the nylon cord shortened down just about as far as it goes. That puts my anchor pretty forward on my face compared to a cheap Tru-Fire release I was using previously. The fixed length of the tru-fire was too long and I felt as though I had to pull the trigger with the tip of my finger rather than down at the 2nd knuckle.
> 
> Picture below - I appreciate any advice you folks are willing to give! Thanks in advance!
> 
> *Edit* I don't know why the picture won't show up as vertical and keeps turning sideways...any advice there is appreciated too! *Edit AGAIN* - I figured it out...sorry!
> 
> View attachment 6973353


Rotate bow hand so the knuckles are 45 degrees, like this.


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am new to archery and looking to start bowhunting. I've been a rifle hunter for years but recently got a hand-me-down bow from my father-in-law and am looking forward to bowhunting.
> 
> Being new to the sport, I thought it would be a good approach to try to get my form critiqued before I start developing bad habits. Below is a picture of me in my basement trying to get a picture to post here. The bow is a 1998 PSE Nova V4 with 29"DL. I took it to my local pro shop for a tune up before i started shooting.
> 
> I'm 5'8"and wingspan pretty close to the same. Based on the calculations I've seen, this would make my DL a bit long, but it feels comfortable. That being said, if it is having a negative impact on form, I'm open to changes. I am also using a Carter Quckie 1+ as my release, with the nylon cord shortened down just about as far as it goes. That puts my anchor pretty forward on my face compared to a cheap Tru-Fire release I was using previously. The fixed length of the tru-fire was too long and I felt as though I had to pull the trigger with the tip of my finger rather than down at the 2nd knuckle.
> 
> Picture below - I appreciate any advice you folks are willing to give! Thanks in advance!
> 
> *Edit* I don't know why the picture won't show up as vertical and keeps turning sideways...any advice there is appreciated too! *Edit AGAIN* - I figured it out...sorry!
> 
> View attachment 6973353


Peep is too low on the string, making the release hand TOO HIGH.
IGNORE peep and learn proper position for release hand. After you master finding the spot for your release hand, THEN, re-install the peep.



Index finger knuckle goes at the BOTTOM of the ear. New photo with SHOES, cuz SHOES changes how you stand.


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## Marballfire

Nuts& Bolts - thanks for the reply.

I've taken a new picture with shoes, and ignoring the peep sight. I could take a front-on picture if it is helpful, but I was consciously making sure my bow hand is angled as indicated in your post. I am taking these photos myself using a timer on my phone, but I can recruit my wife if anything different is needed. Thanks again!


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Nuts& Bolts - thanks for the reply.
> 
> I've taken a new picture with shoes, and ignoring the peep sight. I could take a front-on picture if it is helpful, but I was consciously making sure my bow hand is angled as indicated in your post. I am taking these photos myself using a timer on my phone, but I can recruit my wife if anything different is needed. Thanks again!
> 
> View attachment 6973889


Head appears tilted backwards. Lower your chin, so the nock lands 3/4-inch below corner of mouth. Try to imitate John Dudley.


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## Marballfire

Hi Nuts&bolts,

I've been working on trying to keep my knuckle down below my ear, but I'm finding that the way my hand relaxes with my knuckle that low, the nock ends up really low (not even on my face). It seems like if I anchor with my index knuckle right against my ear lobe the nock is in a much better spot on my face. I tried placing a kisser button on the string to get the nock in the right spot AND get my draw hand down, but I just can't seem to make both happen at once? Not sure if you have any thoughts on that? 

I also think my pictures LOOK a little worse than they are, as the camera was about chest height rather than level with the arrow. I'll try to rig something up to get a picture at a better height and will post back.

I really appreciate your insight.

Thanks,
Rob


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## Huntinsker

Marballfire said:


> Nuts& Bolts - thanks for the reply.
> 
> I've taken a new picture with shoes, and ignoring the peep sight. I could take a front-on picture if it is helpful, but I was consciously making sure my bow hand is angled as indicated in your post. I am taking these photos myself using a timer on my phone, but I can recruit my wife if anything different is needed. Thanks again!
> 
> View attachment 6973889


Your grip hand is turned closer to 45deg but your thumb is rotated too far back towards you and your pinky is too far forwards. It's too much like the bottom right illustration here. 









Rotate it more counterclockwise to get more thumb behind the grip and you'll be in better shape.


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## Marballfire

Huntinsker - thanks for the additional advice.

I've been trying to work on form the last few days, taking several videos just coming to and holding full draw. I took a few more pictures last night, and i think the one below is starting to look a bit better in terms of anchor position. I have some d-loop material o order as well, as i think i might benefit from a slightly longer d-loop. I ended up double-checking my draw, and it is in the 28" position in the cam, so that's where I am at right now. I think the nock is landing at a good distance back on my face, so I don't think a longer draw length is a good route, but i do feel my anchor is a little far forward. Let me know your thoughts.


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## Huntinsker

Marballfire said:


> Huntinsker - thanks for the additional advice.
> 
> I've been trying to work on form the last few days, taking several videos just coming to and holding full draw. I took a few more pictures last night, and i think the one below is starting to look a bit better in terms of anchor position. I have some d-loop material o order as well, as i think i might benefit from a slightly longer d-loop. I ended up double-checking my draw, and it is in the 28" position in the cam, so that's where I am at right now. I think the nock is landing at a good distance back on my face, so I don't think a longer draw length is a good route, but i do feel my anchor is a little far forward. Let me know your thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 6979013


Looks pretty good actually. Only thing I see is that you're leaning back slightly and have more weight on your front foot. You can see how your front leg is straight up and down and the back is angled backwards. Your left hip is also slightly outside your left armpit which is a good indication that you're leaning back a couple inches. If you get your posture straightened out by sliding your hips back and pushing your torso forwards, you'll likely feel like you're leaning forwards when you're standing straight up (for a while at least), I think your anchor will land right where you want it or you may find that you're even 1/2" long on DL. 

Before you change anything on the bow, get the posture squared away and then shoot for a while and see how your shooting is. Your groups and pin float will likely tell you what you need to change.


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## Marballfire

Huntinsker,

Thanks again - I actually looked at the picture again right after posting and saw that it looks like I was leaning backwards a bit. I'll be sure to keep working on that to get straightened out. I did some shooting yesterday and it does feel like I don't get my draw hand back far enough - my index knuckle sites on the side of my face instead of behind my jawbone. Based on where the nock sits on my face I think my draw length should definitely be no longer than it is, but I'm still thinking a longer d-loop might be the answer. I'll continue to shoot it as is for a bit to see if it feels any better. 

I also think that the other adjustments I've made to my form to fix my release hand placement and the form of my release hand out the peep much closer to where it should be. It doesn't feel super low any more and when I close my eyes, draw, and open them I don't think it's off even 1/4" from where it should be. I was noticing while shooting yesterday that it is too small - I can't get the full sight ring when looking through the peep. So if I do think I need to replace that after some additional time shooting, it may be time to lose that tube. I'm just waiting for the day it smacks me in the face...

Thanks again!

Rob


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## Really_frosty




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## Marballfire

Hi folks - 

Checking back in, as I've been shooting pretty regularly over the last few weeks and have gotten out in the tree stand a few times (to no avail). I did end up attaching a longer d-loop and putting in a new peep sight. My groups are pretty good and everything feels pretty comfortable. Let me know your thoughts!


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Hi folks -
> 
> Checking back in, as I've been shooting pretty regularly over the last few weeks and have gotten out in the tree stand a few times (to no avail). I did end up attaching a longer d-loop and putting in a new peep sight. My groups are pretty good and everything feels pretty comfortable. Let me know your thoughts!
> 
> View attachment 7011201


Experiment to push yourself to ever higher accuracy. You are better than 90% of folks who post a How's My Form photo.
If you want to see if you can do even better, the next experiment is to tweak what you do with bow hand position. Most humans on this planet will see improvement in their group size (smaller), by experimenting with more rotation on the bow hand knuckles.


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Hi folks -
> 
> Checking back in, as I've been shooting pretty regularly over the last few weeks and have gotten out in the tree stand a few times (to no avail). I did end up attaching a longer d-loop and putting in a new peep sight. My groups are pretty good and everything feels pretty comfortable. Let me know your thoughts!
> 
> View attachment 7011201


Marballfire. Here is a closeup of YOUR wrist, and for comparison purposes, jewalker's wrist.



Based on the angle of your bones in your wrist, I can SEE that you don't have enough rotation on the bow hand knuckles. More rotation on the bow hand knuckles that you have ever tried before, should reduce the sideways (horizontal) misses for your arrows. YES, if you rotate the knuckles to 45 degrees, PERFECTLY normal for the index finger knuckle to RISE ABOVE the arrow shelf. In fact, if you KEEP the pointer finger knuckle BELOW the arrow shelf, you do not have enough rotation on the bow hand knuckles.



When you rotate the bow hand knuckles to 45 degrees, the pointer finger knuckle will ALWAYS rise above the arrow shelf.


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## Marballfire

I'm glad to hear you think I'm at least starting with a strong base - thank you!

Of course I want to push to be as accurate as possible, so I'll work on this - I've found that when I TRY to rotate my wrist more, the bow tends to twist clockwise when i draw - is it as simple as holding my grip more tightly while drawing and then relaxing my grip once I'm at full draw? Or is there something else i may be doing wrong to cause that?


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## Marballfire

Figured I'd just post right back with regards to my question - I was rotating the riser when i tried rotating my grip hand because i have always been focused on getting my hand up as high on the grip as possible AND keeping both my thumb and index fingers BELOW the shelf. As soon as I allowed my index finger to go up above the riser, the problem fixed itself. 

I'll work on this and will post back if I come up with any more specific questions - thanks again!


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Figured I'd just post right back with regards to my question - I was rotating the riser when i tried rotating my grip hand because i have always been focused on getting my hand up as high on the grip as possible AND keeping both my thumb and index fingers BELOW the shelf. As soon as I allowed my index finger to go up above the riser, the problem fixed itself.
> 
> I'll work on this and will post back if I come up with any more specific questions - thanks again!


You are on the correct track. Experiment with the new bow hand position, fire at close range, and as you get more accustomed, increase the shooting distance.


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## dschonbrun

I like the improvement to your bow arm, next time open your stance to the target.

Imagine the line from the ball of your right foot to the bullseye is the "target line"; The toes of your left foot should be about 2 inches behind the target line. There are other steps in the "Set" part of the shot process to work on. We'll get to that in future.

To your original question of draw length; we need to see your shoulder alignment relative to the arrow line, and to your bow arm. Best to do this with a shot from directly overhead while at Anchor or better yet, as you are expanding.

Best,
David


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## Marballfire

Hi David - 

Thanks for the advice - i think the stance was more a result of hitting the 10-second timer on my phone then getting into position more than anything else - when i am actually shooting i make sure i am either dead square or slightly open to the target.

With regards to an overhead/above and behind picture - what do you mean by "as I am expanding?" Do you mean as I'm creating the back tension to release the arrow?


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## Marballfire

Good morning all,

I took a slow-mo video from above and behind myself (per recommendation by nuts&bolts) and was able to take a screenshot from the last frame before the arrow was released. Let me know if this is what you're looking for.

It looks like maybe i should try shortening my d-loop a hair based on the alignment of my forearm to the arrow? i do like my current anchor location - knuckle at base of ear against the back of my jawbone. It may be a matter of just consciously swinging my arm out a touch away from my body and getting used to that feeling. 

Before I overanalyze what might be nothing, let me know your thoughts...thanks!


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Good morning all,
> 
> I took a slow-mo video from above and behind myself (per recommendation by nuts&bolts) and was able to take a screenshot from the last frame before the arrow was released. Let me know if this is what you're looking for.
> 
> It looks like maybe i should try shortening my d-loop a hair based on the alignment of my forearm to the arrow? i do like my current anchor location - knuckle at base of ear against the back of my jawbone. It may be a matter of just consciously swinging my arm out a touch away from my body and getting used to that feeling.
> 
> Before I overanalyze what might be nothing, let me know your thoughts...thanks!
> 
> View attachment 7014699


Arrow is rotated counter-clockwise in your photo. So, I fixed the photo rotation, so the arrow is pointed STRAIGHT up in your photo, makes it EASIER to see the mis-alignment.



If you have room to shorten the d-loop, shorten the d-loop 1/4-inch and anchor FURTHER forwards.


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Good morning all,
> 
> I took a slow-mo video from above and behind myself (per recommendation by nuts&bolts) and was able to take a screenshot from the last frame before the arrow was released. Let me know if this is what you're looking for.
> 
> It looks like maybe i should try shortening my d-loop a hair based on the alignment of my forearm to the arrow? i do like my current anchor location - knuckle at base of ear against the back of my jawbone. It may be a matter of just consciously swinging my arm out a touch away from my body and getting used to that feeling.
> 
> Before I overanalyze what might be nothing, let me know your thoughts...thanks!
> 
> View attachment 7014699


Yes, you have the option to SWING the right upper arm, forwards of your upper body, to get the right forearm more in line. Simple exercise to learn the FEEL of the right forearm in line behind the arrow.
Go hug a wall. Make a paracord loop (practice loop), and put the forward end of the loop around your bow hand, between the "V" formed by the thumb and index finger. Tie a d-loop to the other end of the paracord practice loop. You can hook your release on the d-loop. Adjust the length of the loop, to simulate your draw length. If the loop is close but a tiny bit too long, just twist the loop into a figure 8, once or twice.

Get into the "full draw" position with the practice loop, and walk towards any wall. Place the bow hand on the wall. The practice loop simulates your arrow. Get the practice loop (your arrow), touching the wall. Release hand should also touch the wall. If your right elbow is cranked TOO far behind your head, your RIGHT elbow will NOT touch the wall in front of you.

So, SWING your right elbow counter-clockwise, until your bow hand, and your release hand, and YOUR ENTIRE right forearm/right elbow ALL touch the wall at the same time. This is the simplest way I teach all of my students, IN line alignment.


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## Marballfire

Once again - thank you.

I definitely have room to shorten my d loop 1/4". If shortening the d-loop will put me into a better position without having to "Consciously" move my arm or alter my form away from what's comfortable that's the route I'd prefer to take. 

I'm sure i could train my right arm to go where it is supposed to, but if I can force it by shortening my d loop a tad, I think that would likely make it more easily repeatable. 

I'll report back again after i have the chance to make the change and get a new picture to see how the alignment looks.

Thanks,

Rob


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## dschonbrun

nuts&bolts said:


> Yes, you have the option to SWING the right upper arm, forwards of your upper body, to get the right forearm more in line. Simple exercise to learn the FEEL of the right forearm in line behind the arrow.
> Go hug a wall. Make a paracord loop (practice loop), and put the forward end of the loop around your bow hand, between the "V" formed by the thumb and index finger. Tie a d-loop to the other end of the paracord practice loop. You can hook your release on the d-loop. Adjust the length of the loop, to simulate your draw length. If the loop is close but a tiny bit too long, just twist the loop into a figure 8, once or twice.
> 
> Get into the "full draw" position with the practice loop, and walk towards any wall. Place the bow hand on the wall. The practice loop simulates your arrow. Get the practice loop (your arrow), touching the wall. Release hand should also touch the wall. If your right elbow is cranked TOO far behind your head, your RIGHT elbow will NOT touch the wall in front of you.
> 
> So, SWING your right elbow counter-clockwise, until your bow hand, and your release hand, and YOUR ENTIRE right forearm/right elbow ALL touch the wall at the same time. This is the simplest way I teach all of my students, IN line alignment.


Alan, In terms of the archer's DL, I think the barrel of the gun isn't fully set and so we should resolve that before making equipment changes.

In the image from above, I like that your weight is on the balls of your feet, next time open your stance 20-30 degrees to the left and lock your knees to keep your hips open to the target. This will help engage your core during coiling (a.k.a. Set-Up/Draw to Load). I'd like to see an upper body rotation around your spine using your core muscles to help draw the bow, rather than just your draw arm/shoulder. At the moment, your shoulders are pointing a bit left of the arrow-line at Anchor, and if we fix that, it will have impacts elsewhere.

Best,
David


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## Marballfire

Hi all,

I haven't made any changes to my bow yet, so I took a new video tonight trying to open up my stance a bit, focus on my core, and try to see if I could feel where my right arm is in line.
I'll cull a picture out of the video tomorrow and see if I can do some analyzing to see if it's worth loading up here for you to look at.
One question I do have - I've been focusing on my bow hand being at 45°, but the fletching keeps hitting my index finger when I release. I'm wondering what I might need to do to stop that from happening? My index finger is above the shelf, but I'd say it's off the corner, not coming over on top of it. I appreciate all your ongoing feedback.

Thanks,

Rob


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## Marballfire

Good morning!

I took a crack at analyzing my picture from last night in nuts&bolts style - I'v drawn lines on the target line (yellow), right arm line (red), stance line (black), and my best guess at shoulder line (blue). I've also included the raw, unmodified image in case yu don't like my excel work!

So based on what I've learned so far - right arm still isn't as far out as it should be. Again - i haven't mad any change to my d loop, so that may be a needed change - i felt like i was pushing my arm pretty far out when i was taking the video. Forcing it straight may be a more powerful tool for learning the feel of the right position. Otherwise - stance is more opened to target per David's advice - let me know if this looks good or if i should aim to be more or less open. My shoulder line i think looks pretty close - I can't be 100% sure since I'm kind of guessing where the center of my front shoulder is.

Once again - let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,

Rob


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Good morning!
> 
> I took a crack at analyzing my picture from last night in nuts&bolts style - I'v drawn lines on the target line (yellow), right arm line (red), stance line (black), and my best guess at shoulder line (blue). I've also included the raw, unmodified image in case yu don't like my excel work!
> 
> So based on what I've learned so far - right arm still isn't as far out as it should be. Again - i haven't mad any change to my d loop, so that may be a needed change - i felt like i was pushing my arm pretty far out when i was taking the video. Forcing it straight may be a more powerful tool for learning the feel of the right position. Otherwise - stance is more opened to target per David's advice - let me know if this looks good or if i should aim to be more or less open. My shoulder line i think looks pretty close - I can't be 100% sure since I'm kind of guessing where the center of my front shoulder is.
> 
> Once again - let me know your thoughts.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rob
> 
> View attachment 7018677
> View attachment 7018679


Much better. Blue line seems to be the alignment of the collar bones (imagine an x-ray image).
Yellow line appears to be the arrow alignment. There are two bones in the forearm (radius and ulna). I will fix the red line. Not sure what the black arrow is doing in your photo. Red line should run from tip of elbow to the center of your wrist.


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## nuts&bolts

So, FIRST thing I did, is rotate your photo clockwise 2.9 degrees, so the arrow points straight up and down.



Now that the arrow is pointing straight up and down (dead vertical) in the photo, makes it MUCH easier for folks to see if the bones in your right forearm are also dead vertical in the photo.


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## nuts&bolts

So, you are now within spitting distance, for your ideal shooting full draw posture, which you should now adjust (wrist strap to trigger distance, d-loop length), based on shooting results. This very basic anatomy analysis (x-ray alignments), tell me things, but you should shoot groups, and tweak this or that, to see if you can tighten up groups.



So, what do all these lines mean? The lines mean absolutely zero, to folks with zero medical background. 
The BLUE line, I have touching your scapulas (shoulder blades). Blue line gives up a very good alignment picture for what direction your upper body is pointing. Basically, your rib cage is pretty much parallel to the arrow, while at full draw. 

The YELLOW line is your arrow alignment. I extended the yellow arrow, so anybody can see that your elbow (right elbow) is still slightly cranked more clockwise, so your latest photo is BETTER, but your right elbow is still cranked around the back of your head, a bit too far. Blah, Blah, blah, nobody has perfect form. Yeah, well, seems like you are interested to see how ACCURATE you COULD be, so these lines in your latest photo give you CLUES about what to tweak next.

The example photo with the KID, shows you a GREEN line that connects the elbow through the center of the sight pins. It IS possible to get in line alignment from right elbow to the sight pins.

So, what to try next, IF you want to see if you can bust nocks at farther and farther distances? Try anchoring a skosh farther forwards on your face. If you don't want to change your anchor, that's fine. Then, shorten the d-loop 1/8th inch or 1/4-inch, and LEAN FORWARDS when using that new shorter d-loop. Right elbow will crank counter-clockwise, with a shorter d-loop.

You can also thicken the grip. Use some grip tape and make a 1/16th inch layer around the grip. That will reduce brace height 1/16th inch, which will shorten the draw length 1/16th inch. Grip tape on the grip and a 1/4-inch shorter d-loop, COMBINE to create a 3/16ths inch shorter Draw length. Same exact same anchor, cuz the DL is reduced 3/16ths, you will have to lean FORWARDS 3/16th inch, and you get to keep the exact same anchor, and your right elbow will crank MORE counter-clockwise. You get the idea. Try one idea, try several ideas in combination, and see if you can bust nocks at a further distance than before. RESULTS based tuning.


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## Marballfire

That's great - thanks again. The black line i had in my picture was to show my foot alignment with relation to the target line, per David's recommendation that i open my stance up.

Unfortunately I'm limited in my shooting range most days to my basement - which is about 8-9 yards. I do shoot a handful of arrows at least a few times a week, one arrow at a time (arrows are too expensive to shoot true groups at that distance haha). I figure at this stage of the game I'm accurate enough out to ~35 yards that i know i'm going to hit the kill zone if i took a shot at a deer, so my practicing in the basement is mostly about getting in repetitions to tighten up form and stay consistent. I do get to bring my bow to my folks house every couple weeks and i practice at 20 & 30 yards. I know there is potential for better accuracy through practice, but I am confident that any shot i take hunting would be in the "pie plate."

Once again - I appreciate your input!

Rob


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## Marballfire

Sorry - following back up quickly again. I mentioned in my post last night that since rotating my bow hand more clockwise, I've been getting hit in my index finger by my arrow fletching when I shoot. My finger is not resting ON the shelf, but rather just off the corner. I'll see if I can practice a bit tonight to really focus on it, but I'm wondering if it's a common issue that people run into on compound bows and if so, what is the usual solution?

Rob


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Sorry - following back up quickly again. I mentioned in my post last night that since rotating my bow hand more clockwise, I've been getting hit in my index finger by my arrow fletching when I shoot. My finger is not resting ON the shelf, but rather just off the corner. I'll see if I can practice a bit tonight to really focus on it, but I'm wondering if it's a common issue that people run into on compound bows and if so, what is the usual solution?
> 
> Rob


Very unusual.



Try wrapping the index finger more along the outer edge of the arrow shelf. Side of the middle finger is under the shelf, along the wall of the riser. Pointer finger tight to the middle finger. Increase the distance between thumb and pointer finger, for a wider horseshoe shape (thumb and pointer finger).


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## Marballfire

Thanks - I'll see what I can do.

I took a minute this morning to take a picture from head-on as i took a shot - the camera is a little low because i actually released the arrow to see if it would hit my hand or not i this position. Don't know if you can tell from this angle if anything looks "off." I'm also wondering if it could maybe just be a tuning issue and the arrow rest/nock point are too low? I thought about taking a picture of where the arrow sits int he berger hole as a possible reference as to whether the arrow is sitting too low on the shelf, but that thought didn't occur until i was driving in. I can do that tomorrow morning if it might be helpful.


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## nuts&bolts

Marballfire said:


> Thanks - I'll see what I can do.
> 
> I took a minute this morning to take a picture from head-on as i took a shot - the camera is a little low because i actually released the arrow to see if it would hit my hand or not i this position. Don't know if you can tell from this angle if anything looks "off." I'm also wondering if it could maybe just be a tuning issue and the arrow rest/nock point are too low? I thought about taking a picture of where the arrow sits int he berger hole as a possible reference as to whether the arrow is sitting too low on the shelf, but that thought didn't occur until i was driving in. I can do that tomorrow morning if it might be helpful.
> 
> View attachment 7019373


Raise the whisker biscuit 1/4-inch, and raise the d-loop also 1/4-inch. One system is middle of arrow matching the height of the middle of the two arrow rest holes.
Other system is to have BOTTOM edge of the arrow matching the height of the middle of the two arrow rest holes. If you raise the whisker biscuit arrow rest,
so the BOTTOM edge of the arrow shaft matches the center of the two berger holes...also raise the d-loop, so the arrow is level, when the riser is vertical. This second system
will get you the vane clearance above your index finger knuckle. Bonus is you get a little extra leverage, to prevent the pin from dropping out the bottom.


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## Marballfire

I took a look at my bow this afternoon with an arrow on it to see where i currently am with regards to the berger hole. It looks like i am already a bit above center of the arrow through the center of the hole. I've got a vise and level kit on order so i can make any adjustments if needed, but I' starting to think the issue may be in the tune of the bow - the arrow rest's left/right alignment looks off to me, as the arrow is pointing to the left of straight when the bow is at brace. I took several pictures of my current set up to see if anything looks glaringly wrong to you. If there is anything that looks off in terms of the set up, I'd definitely be curious to know. I can also provide different pictures if more helpful. It is worth nothing that i don't see any issues with left or right misses at any distance i shoot from. 

As always I appreciate the help.

Alignment with the berger hole:








From above showing the arrow pointing left with regards to the stabilizer:
View attachment 7020357


Measurement of center of arrow away from riser (can also see that it is pointing left here):








Bottom Cam from behind:








Top Cam from Behind:


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## nuts&bolts

Two schools of thought for bow tuning. Just shove the arrow crooked enough, till the bow shoots good enuff. Kinda like tuning a car for front end alignment. Do ya want the steering wheel to point straight dead center? Is it GOOD enuff, if the car tracks crooked left, and just twist the steering wheel, to force the car to point straight when driving on the highway?

So, use my two arrow trick, to get the arrow rest pointing DEAD straight ahead.
Wrap a rubber band around the riser and shove a 2nd arrow through the ends of the rubber band. Might need to use a spring clamp as well, to hold up the arrow. Like this.



Now, with that 2nd arrow acting as a ruler (cuz your RISER is not twisted, right?). With that 2nd arrows as a guide, shove the arrow rest left or right, until the SAME slip of paper, just BARELY fits between the nock end of BOTH arrows, and that SAME slip of paper just BARELY fits between the POINTY end of both arrows. This is the definition of parallel.





Now, with the arrow pointing DEAD straight ahead...

1) tweak your grip until you get your paper tuning bullet hole
2) tweak the d-loop length until you get your paper tuning bullet hole
3) tweak the yoke legs (if you have yoke legs), until you get your paper tuning bullet hole
4) shim the cams on the top axle, until you get your paper tuning bullet hole
5) tweak your draw length, until you get your paper tuning bullet hole...Yeah, draw length matters
6) tweak your stance, until you get your paper tuning bullet hole...Yeah, stance matters.


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## nuts&bolts

since you are RIGHT handed....go LONGER on the d-loop, shorten the cables to shrink ATA and grow the draw length a skosh longer.
After you get the arrow rest pointing the arrow dead straight ahead,
after you try a little longer d-loop,
after you try shortening the ATA, to grow brace height 1/8th longer than current brace height..

as the final fine tuning step, add a twist to the RIGHT yoke leg, and you should be much closer to that paper tuning bullet hole....paper tune with a bareshaft
at multiple distances...5 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards and 20 yards.


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## nuts&bolts

One more thing. Play with the bow hand, the direction your bow hand thumb bone is pointing. Use a bic pen and make a reference mark on the back of your hand. Like this.



Use some masking tape and run the masking tape straight up and down the grip. Use a pen and draw a vertical reference line all the way up to the arrow shelf.



Grab the bow the way you always do, and make a pen mark that lines up with the masking tape pen mark, so you have a reference for how YOU hold your bow. Now, experiment with new bow hand positions. You are going to spin your bow hand, so your thumb points more to the RIGHT (pen mark on the bow hand will be left of the masking tape mark). See if this helps you get closer to a paper tuning bullet hole. I think you will get the most BANG for your buck, tweaking bow hand position.

When you find the new sweet spot for bow hand thumb pointing direction, make a NEW pen mark on the back of your hand, and keep using the masking tape reference mark. This will keep you honest and more consistent for bow hand thumb pointing direction.


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## Marballfire

Very helpful information - thanks again. I am a tinkerer by nature and i want things done RIGHT, not just good enough. I've got a vice and levels on the way, so once i have them I'll see if i can make those adjustments and get this bow shooting as good as possible.

Thanks,

Rob


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## dschonbrun

Rob, I like the improvement. For your grip, next time start with your hand a touch lower and pinch your index finger and thumb together before lowering the base of your palm down to hit the grip. This will help keep your fingers in the throat below the shelf.. should avoid arrow interference.

Best,
David


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## Thwapman

Good lord this was nice thread.


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## Marballfire

Hi all,

Posting back as I'm looking to switch gears a little bit - I've been shooting a lot and feel my form is pretty good and I'm good at repeating it. I now want to switch over to tuning this bow a bit.

I put new strings and cables on the bow a couple weeks ago built by Breathn. (these strings are great - great looking and quality seems awesome. Bow DEFINITELY picked up speed as i had to move all pins closer together and I'm not experiencing arrow drop from 10-20 yards as i was previously).

As my initial set up, I put the bow in a vise and tied in my nock sets and d-loop such that the arrow is level at brace. I also set centershot so the arrow is parallel to an arrow held flat against the riser. I put the bow into my home-made draw board and was able to get the top cam to no lean at full draw, but i CAN'T get the bottom cam to zero lean without either putting too many twists INTO one yoke, or taking too many OUT of the other. It is currently leaning AWAY, such that an arrow held flat against the cam would never cross the string. 

This leads me to my first question. On my bow, the cable guard is currently angled downward. I was looking to check into this to gain just enough clearance for the vanes, but was also wondering if there is any reason not to angle it UPWARD and still just enough for vane clearance. I was thinking this may reduce the torque on the lower cam enough to get it straight at full draw but figured I'd check here first to see if there is any reason not to do this. I've included a picture of the bow below (an old picture, but the cable guard has not changed).









Thanks in advance!
Rob


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## Marballfire

Posting back because I re-read my post and thought some clarification might be needed. I am talking about rotating my cable guard upward, as suggested by the yellow arrow in the picture below. I still want to maintain minimum clearance for he vanes, but was thinking rotating it up this way would reduce the lateral pull on the bottom cam.


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