# Arrow Tuning Challenge - Spine



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - also - some guys think that when you paper tune that if you shoot from different distances you will get different tears - this is simply not true - I have experimented with this many many times - because to be honest - it seemed to make sense that the tears would be different depending on where in the paradox the arrow impacted the paper. But I found that no matter where I stood starting at say 6 feet all the way back to 20 yards and on - the tears were the same.

I tried to wrap my head around why this would be - and what I came up with is that if the arrow is tuned - the tail will always follow the tip over the length of the arrow - so no matter where in the paradox the arrow enters the paper - over the length of the arrow the tail will follow. 

I am not sure if this is the reason - but it is what I came up with - and i drew a little chart to explain my thoughts. If this is not the reason - and you know the reason - let me know.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

anyone? this is really simple to do - just get a box - take the back out and stretch some paper over it


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

I like where your going with this, I have always preached safety first and severly under-spined arrows are unsafe no matter how you look at it. I know there are those out there that will never listen and there is nothing any of us can do about this. Great effort on what your showing! I dont agree that the spine charts are spot on, (atleast for woodies), I look at them as a starting point and tuning goes from there. I have seen multiple times that shooters can shoot woodies that are much higher spine than the bow weight or what the charts show.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I dont' know about wood or alloy - I have not used either for decades - but in regards to carbon - I have found the arrow makers charts to be pretty much spot on. But you are correct- they are just a starting point - nothing replaces actual tuning - not an arrow makers spine chart - and certainly not an internet spine calculator. But it seems to me that guys are taking this spine calculator gospel and are shooting underspined arrows based on it - to date - none of them have shown me that these arrows that the charts would consider underspined actually are flying right (again - I am speaking about carbon arrows). 

I can't say for certain that they won't fly right for some guys - I am just asking one of them to show me.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

lol - not decades - over a decade would be more accurate - I am old, but not that old -


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Personally, I don't know any shooters, compound or recurve, who give much credence to paper tuning - it's just not that great a tool when shooting bare can tell you all you need to know about how a shaft performs "before" you add fletch to correct.

Personally, I don't care how you tune. Have at it. If you think all those free and high dollar calculators are misleading folks, well, good luck on that one trying to show such off something as rudimentary as a paper tear.

Heck, the free one, Stu Miller's, help me dial in the purchase on these. They tune the distances as well, but are too weak for you, so no need for specs. If it gets straighter than this, let me know, I'll be ears  Otherwise, I would prefer to just leave you to your own desires.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

umm = it gets straighter - I see lots of holes in that target in the white - paper tuning tells it stright up - there is no way to not see it right - or anything - it is what it is and if your tears through paper are not "bullet holes" your arrows are not tuned to the bow - simple as that.

I can take a bunch of underspined arrows - and as long as they are all the same weak spine - I would be able to shoot them consistently given time - but why would I want to do this? Howard Hill demonstrated this quite well - he would take arrows from audience members at his shows and randomly shoot them and he shot them all accurately - but does that mean that they were tuned to the bow?

I want my arrows to be as tuned as possible for maximum penetration - and the least chance of other issues


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

nobody? For all the grief I get for my arrow recommendations - you would think that there would be guys in line posting videos of them shooting through paper to prove that these light spined arrows that they shoot and recommend to new guys really are tuned


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> nobody? For all the grief I get for my arrow recommendations - you would think that there would be guys in line posting videos of them shooting through paper to prove that these light spined arrows that they shoot and recommend to new guys really are tuned


Sharp, I don't recall anyone giving you grief about your arrow tune, only you trying to constantly prove others are wrong about their recommended choices and set ups. Same thing as in this thread., though pretty transparent motive. Look, you want to argue. No problem. No one wants to argue with you. Seems like a problem, for you. Looks like you may need to find a less mature forum to hang in if that is your need. Personally, again, I am happy you tune where you do. It works for you and some others. Others are happy where they tune, it works for them and some others. If someone recommends a spine you think is off, give your recommended try. Simple, ain't it?


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Ken, 
Allow me to correct you on a couple points. First, an arrow will not always show a perfect tear at all distances. Now, if you are getting a bullet hole at 6 ft. as you back up you shouldn't really see much deviation but that isn't always the case. Having a personal singular experience doesn't constitute that rule being incorrect. You can have a slightly limber arrow that will show a slight high-left tear at 6 ft., go slightly right at 15 ft and at 25 ft have a bullet hole. You can also have a bullet hole at 6 ft. turn into a slightly stiff tear as you go back.

The reason for this with finger shooters is simple. Everyone has a different release. Depending on how smooth your release is will affect what type of tear you get. Someone with a butter smooth release can get away with shooting a more limber arrow spine. The fingers deflect the string minimally and the arrow has less paradox to recover from. Someone with a harder, rougher release may have to shoot a stiffer spine because the fingers induce more string deflection and causes a greater amount of arrow paradox. If someone has a particularily nasty release they may have to shoot a much stiffer spine to get a relatively clean bullet hole up close and that arrow will show it's stiffness as you back up.

I can tell you this. After working with literally hundreds, if not thousands of people, on a paper tuning station I've learned that finger shooters who get bullet holes up close are the exception rather than the rule. It's more a starting point than the end all.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Sharp, I don't recall anyone giving you grief about your arrow tune, only you trying to constantly prove others are wrong about their recommended choices and set ups. Same thing as in this thread., though pretty transparent motive. Look, you want to argue. No problem. No one wants to argue with you. Seems like a problem, for you. Looks like you may need to find a less mature forum to hang in if that is your need. Personally, again, I am happy you tune where you do. It works for you and some others. Others are happy where they tune, it works for them and some others. If someone recommends a spine you think is off, give your recommended try. Simple, ain't it?


My feelings exactly! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Ken,
> Allow me to correct you on a couple points. First, an arrow will not always show a perfect tear at all distances. Now, if you are getting a bullet hole at 6 ft. as you back up you shouldn't really see much deviation but that isn't always the case. Having a personal singular experience doesn't constitute that rule being incorrect. You can have a slightly limber arrow that will show a slight high-left tear at 6 ft., go slightly right at 15 ft and at 25 ft have a bullet hole. You can also have a bullet hole at 6 ft. turn into a slightly stiff tear as you go back.
> 
> The reason for this with finger shooters is simple. Everyone has a different release. Depending on how smooth your release is will affect what type of tear you get. Someone with a butter smooth release can get away with shooting a more limber arrow spine. The fingers deflect the string minimally and the arrow has less paradox to recover from. Someone with a harder, rougher release may have to shoot a stiffer spine because the fingers induce more string deflection and causes a greater amount of arrow paradox. If someone has a particularily nasty release they may have to shoot a much stiffer spine to get a relatively clean bullet hole up close and that arrow will show it's stiffness as you back up.
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I do agree that regardless the shaft is made of carbon, wood, alloy, glass; the danger of shooting a severely underspined shaft supersedes all other considerations. 

Arrow spine charts are not the last word; they are a starting point...a guide. It is just not possible to calculate spine charts to precisely cover all the variables that exist with every bow, with every arrow setup, and with every individual shooter. Nevertheless, the proposed testing (challenge) is greatly lacking too many variables that can affect (stiffen/weaken) "dynamic" spine, and beyond being briefly entertaining will demonstrate but little and questionable evidence for either side of the debate.

As for paper-tuning a traditional bow, the person utilizing the tuning method had better be experienced with the method and be able to correctly deduce whether the off-tear is actually indicative of a problem of some type, is spine related, is bow-tune related, is form related, or all of the above; or the tail will wag the dog and the individual could end up making changes that makes matters worse.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Straight 8 - If you start out with a bad tear - of course it will get better as you step back - I thought that was stating the obvious - as you step back the fletching corrects poor flight. What I was refering too was that people claim you can have a good tear at 6 feet and then move back a foot or two and then get a bad tear due to the change in distance and at what point in the paradox the arrow impacts the paper. If you start with a good tear at 6 feet and then move back - that tear will remain good - if you start with a bad tear - it is, or should be obvious that as you step back the tear will improve.

I think i stated that the tail will follow the tip on a TUNED arrow - so if you are starting with a bad tear - you are not shooting a tuned arrow.

I have helped many - certainly not thousands - being that there are not even thousands of trad shooters in the state where I live - and I have been able to help every single one of them get bullet holes - as long as they are not snap shooting and doing all the weird bending and stuff - if a guy has consistent form - I can get them tuned to shoot bullet holes - I have yet to fail at this.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Heck on Thursday night at my league this week - a new guy just started shooting with my team and he has a recurve - YIPEE - finally - anyhow - after we were done shooting - I had him shoot through paper and he had nock high - we made a few adjustments and like magic - he had bullet holes just as good as the ones you see in my video. If you would like I can bring a camera Thursday night and video him shooting through paper and getting perfect bullet holes. If one knows how to paper tune and has the right spined arrow to begin with - they can get perfect bullet holes through paper - finger shooter or not.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Does Rick Welch paper tune? I don't know whether the information is valid but I once read where Welch doesn't bareshaft tune.


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## rezeen6.5 (Aug 14, 2009)

No Rick doesn't he watches the flight of the arrow out of the bow thats what he told me anyway.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well?..me being one of the folks sharp called out by-the-numbers in his video?..(54#, 30", 145gr, 3555's)..my knee jerk thoughts where..meet his challenge..however...like others here have already mentioned there's simply too many variables such as..

1. How far past center is the bows riser cut?..they all *VARY*...some slight...some a lot..when you're speaking "tuning".

2. But then we attempt "Strike Plate Tuning"..which sharp himself mentioned in his vid..and again..obviously..they *VARY*.

3. Of course sharps cheetahs punched a clean hole..they are tuned to his bow..but where his 500spine beemen ics the same diameter as the cheetahs?

4. Are all risers cut as far past center as a pinnacle riser?..cause if not...those bows would "require" a weaker spine..as sharp himself said.

That said?..I realized back in the late 80's that i could punch bullet holes through paper only to shoot crap groups at 40yds..but if i bareshaft tuned?..they grouped together too the next zip code..so...i wouldn't be the first one in the history of archery to make the claim that "paper tuning can lie"..and i can recall a day i usta giggle inside watching anal types pull their hair out at the paper rack trying to get that perfect bullet hole only to watch themselves loose points off their average at the next shoot.

My best coach and mentor once told me..if my form is well executed with a clean release and my arrows are properly spined?..and i see a bunny at 20yds?..i should be able to reach into a quiver of fletched and bare shafts and not care wether it had fletchings on it or not and know..that's one dead bunny..and i believe his words to this day.

Which is why i have no inclination to find a box..cut the bottom out..rubber band and clip printer paper, video, upload and post the results to meet sharps challenge and discover again the hard way what i already knew 25+ years ago...i don't paper tune..i bareshaft. (that would be a period)

Now the only thing i have left to address is?...

The "UNDER-SPINED SAFETY" Issue: as for me?..there isn't any..as my GT3555's are well within their respective respective rating..and i don't know about today but from what i recall?..many (if not all) spine charts used to * (2) things..those being...

*THESE SPINE RECOMMENDATIONS ARE JUST A SUGGESTED STARTING POINT

annnnnd?...

*SUBTRACT 10LBS OF DRAW WEIGHT FOR RECURVES AND LONGBOWS

So?..i'm well within..actually?..right in the middle..shooting GT3555's off my 54# Recurve..to boot?..i dont draw a full 28"s and my hold weight is 51LBs..and for the second boot?..justa make a pair?..LOL!....I've shot these GT3555's off my compound..a 2010 PSE Omen..(arguably the worlds fastest production speedbow) at 54#[email protected]"s with 100gr points and no problem..so?..i'm purty dang certain my 54# Bob Lee aint gonna blow'em up! LOL!...as those numbers were originally rated for compounds..not stick bows...and just to reassure everyone?..I've also shot 28 1/2" long RadialXWeave 100's..which are like a 500 spine as well (grantmac claims closer to 530 spine) with 100gr points off my Omen set at 54#s and again...no problem..actually?..they shot great. 

So there ya have it folks..me..for one.."not"...meeeting.."sharps challenge".

Sorry sharp..just got better things to do..still love ya though and L8R, Bill.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Sharp, 

I'm interested in your challenge, but it'll take me a while to get the time to experiment with paper tuning and create a video. When I am able to do so, I'll try to show the same batch of arrows from the same bow with both bare shaft and paper results. 

Cheers,

Patrick


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

jinxter - the bottom line is this - you said that the arrows you are using are tuned ot your bow and fly well - shoot them through paper and show me - the paper does not lie or make errors - it simply tells it like it is - and btw - the two arrows are the exact same diameter.

Rezeen - Rick does not tune arrows at all in any conventional way - what Rick does is take an arrow and then adjust his strike plate until the arrow goes where he is looking. With his level of skill in shooting - I suspect that he is getting the same results - if the arrow is underspined he is building up the strike plate and or the other way around.

BUT... Like I said - if you have a set of arrows that are all the same spine - you can get them to all shoot well for you - our brians can adjust and put almost any arrow where we want it. As I said above Howard Hill demonstrated that numerous times by shooting other peoples arrows just as accurately as his own.

But that does not mean that the arrows are actually tuned as well as they can be.

As I said - the paper tells the story - there is no way to not see it right, for your brain to make adjustments, or whatever else - the paper does not lie - it is simply a clear record of what the arrow is doing in flight.

As I said before - regarding Jinxsters post - he shows all sorts of hypothetical variables - and one can tune for all those variables - all I want him to do is how me that his bow is tuned - or someone to show me a bow that is being shot off the shelf without building out the strike plate that is shooting one of the arrows that the spine charts would say is too weak.

I have advised many who have questioned in these forums to use a given spine - and other than a few guys - virtually everyone else is recommonding a weaker spine than the charts or I would recommend - all i want is to see if these weaker spines actually are tuned to these bows - I am not denying that they can be - I simply have never seen it - so if it can be done - Show me

Show me

I do not want to be giving bad advise to new guys - if a weaker spined arrow can be tuned to bows that I think they cannot - I truly want to KNOW that - so that when people ask - I can say - for example: "for some people a weaker spine will work" - but I cannot say that - since nobody has ever been able to demonstrate to me that they can be tuned. I have helped several people and never once have I been able to get these weaker spined arrows tuned to the weight bows that guys are suggesting they will work out of.

This is really a simple request - get a cardboard box remove the top and bottom - stand it on its side and tape a piece of paper to it and shoot through it from 6-8' - (i shot at 6 feet) and film it and show us the tears, the arrow and the bow.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

thorwulfx

THANK YOU - but if you arrows are tuned - there is really no experimentation that needs to be done - just shoot through paper and the tears will show it.

What is your set up - bow weight, rest, strike plate, string material, draw length, arrow length and spine, tip weight, and if you are using a weighted insert.

Thanks - and be sure to include all that stuff in the video

I am very curious to see your results.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh also - let me know if you had to make any minor adjustments when you went from bares shafts to fletched through paper. Sometimes I have had to make minor adjustments to silencer position or nock locator position when I fletched them and then shot through paper.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Sharp, 

I'll do my best to be scientific. The main thing for me (I shoot outside) is getting the time to do the test while it's light enough to capture the footage.

As to the arrows being tuned...yes, for a given definition of tuning, as in they appear to be flying well and consistently. Within my admittedly limited ability to shoot, I'm pretty happy with the setups I have for all my bows at this time. That said, I'm sure that there might be some improvements that could be made.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I do not want to be giving bad advise to new guys -


That's good...than the BEST advice you can give any archer is to use the calculators and spine charts to narrow down their choices for an appropriate spine and than have them tune to the best of their ability if they have developed some consistentcy with their form.

You can't give any better basic advice than that.



sharpbroadhead said:


> if a weaker spined arrow can be tuned to bows that I think they cannot - I truly want to KNOW that -


Ummmm....can't you just accept that your results may vary from others...or do you believe that if you haven't witnessed it or experienced that it's not possible?

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

thorwulfx - good luck - can't wait to see your video - and whatever you do - always test stuff out for yourself.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

very interesting article: http://gma.yahoo.com/why-people-believe-misinformation-even-corrected-162943705--abc-news.html


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Curious: Should an individual paper-tune shafts in a non-scientific manner and that person shoots anything but all bullet holes, what is to be the message to the entire hunting/target archery community?



> _very interesting article_


Well, here we go...again. If we don't totally agree with Sharp, we are "nuts." Give me a break!


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

I being an old long time compound shooter do believe in paper tune. It works. today's bows are so wound up in terms of compounds that it is hard to get the dang things to shoot well so paper tune is getting more rare and people are just happy to get them to group and shoot. The issue of cut past center is real I am sure of that. Sharp you will need to get an older bow that is not cut to center and then a weaker arrow than the chart shows will likely wiggle past the riser and shoot well. I have enough arrows lying around that I can try several different stiffness arrows and tip combinations and get the one that matches the bow. Paper doesn't lie simple as that. It shows what the arrow is doing. There is no magic that made the 500 arrow look weak it is weak. The bows that are not cut past center may well need a weaker spine but that is the only reason I can see for it. My abilities with the recurve may not allow me to get the perfect bullet hole I can with a compound and release but I won't have something making an obvious rip in the paper either.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Sinister, 

Is the answer to your sig zero? Just having fun trying to puzzle it out.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## AReric (Mar 6, 2010)

Ken, I think your video was well done. I'm going to begin paper tuning this year, have bareshaft tuned in the past, and see what my tears look like. My bows are 45 and 46 lbs at my DL, and I use 400's. I've tried 2016's (500) last year, and they were weak even cut down to 1 1/2" ahead of my DL. I just want a good shooting set-up, and don't care what number is on the shaft.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

It is the old fish christian symbol with a "cross" in the center.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Okay sharp..i havent papertuned a bow in 25 years..i bareshaft tune exclusively..and will continue to due so..but since it seems you're truely on an honest qwest for answers to your questions regarding your inability to even fathom why some would suggest going to weaker spines or heavier points?..and since ya called me out?..i figured the only honorable and gentlemenly thing to due was answer that call..heck..poor Patrick stepped up as my 2nd..so..LOL! Thanks Thorwulfx! 

Now Ken?..there's a few things i'd like you to take into consideration (maybe even accept a few excuses) before viewing this menageri of a paper test..

1. I haven't "Paper-Tuned" a bow in 25+ years.

2. My "paper-rack"... :laugh: ...wasn't the greatest..wound up shooting at a square surface at a steep angle..prolly should've got on my knees but..

3. I'm suffering from a recent and severe spider bite on my right ankle..possibly a brown recluse..killed one in my house last night..

and finally?..

4. Due to a recent bout of diabetic neuropathy in my legs?..i only shot about 30 arrows one night in the past 7 days..and that was off my 44# longbow..and i could see in the vid..i'm "grabbing" my recurve..it doesnt have finger grooves like my longbow that remind me to keep my hand lightly wrapped.

That said?..there didnt appear to be any Left/Right issues..so spine is fine in my book..just nock high tears that could be tuned out by lowering my nocking point but..like i said..could've been the steep angle of the arrow in relation to the paper..and i shoot my Bob Lee a little nock high..nevertheless..i know you try to do a lot to help the new folks here Ken..and you are to be commended for that..outside of that?..get ready for a laugh..i think you'll enjoy my..

*"Swamp-People Paper-Rack"*

http://Jinkster.vidmeup.com/view?q=4f32f40cddaac.flv

Edit/PS: Please folks oh please..dont anybody ever tell my wife i used her kitchen chair and parchment paper and i pray to God she never sees this. LOL!

L8R, Bill.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MrSinister said:


> It is the old fish christian symbol with a "cross" in the center.


dang..and i was just trying to puzzle it out after Thorwulx mentioned such and came up with..

"LESS THAN PLUS GREATER THAN IS LESS THAN"

and that had spiritual meaning to me and my warped mind but..ya just turned it religouse and blew it away for me. LOL!


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## mmorton (Aug 17, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> My feelings exactly! :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ok, in all the time I've been reading posts here, it seems that Black Wolf, walks the walk _And  talks the talk...so my question as noob traditional shooter and as an advanced compound shooter is this - if my arrows go where I'm looking, consistently, do I follow a chart that says my arrows are wrong or do I go shoot my wicked custom bow and have some fun and / or catch some dinner? I think spine is critical with a compound and maybe with a high draw weight trad bow but...if it ain't broke....don't fix it... I'm just saying here, not criticizing or hating...that is what I've taken from Black Wolf's and Viper's posts in the past. IMHO_


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL Jinkster - I love your set up!

honestly - I think it is quite possible that your nock is too low and that is what is causing that tear, but I could be wrong. Play around with your nock point and see what happens. If it is that the nock is too low - there is no way to tell what is going on with the spine.

Good luck with your leg - I was one of the lucky ones to get adult onset type one diabetes - I am on an insulin pump now and that has made life easier and my sugars are better - but I am sure I too one day will be facing issues with either my legs, kidneys, or eyes.

thanks for taking the time to make the video - if you get time play with the nock locator and see what happens and post it - along with all the specs of your arrows, your bow, and your shelf and strike plate.

btw - I am telling your wife on you!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

mmorton - actually spine is more critical with a trad bow than with a compound. I do not recommend going by any chart or internet spine calculator - i recommend actual tuning.

You ask why would you want to shoot a tuned arrow if an arrow that is not tuned is going where you look - well - there are several reasons - 1. increased penetration 2. more forgiveness - you will shoot a tuned arrow better more often, 3. your bow will be quieter and have less vibration, 4. broadhead flight will improve, 5 wind will have less effect on your shot, and for me - it is piece of mind.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

thanks to the guys who complimented the video - i sort of just slapped it together


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Jinkster,

That was my thinking: 

Less than (a positive), greater than (less than nothing...I.E. a negative number), which would seem to mean that the only answer would be zero.

See, I was having that sort of profound thing with just the mathematical signals, too. 

I have taken a lot of hits to the head, though...

Cheers,

Patrick


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL Jinkster - I love your set up!


Why thank you Ken...and i dont mind saying..i was quite proud of myself for whipping that one up. LOL!



sharpbroadhead said:


> honestly - I think it is quite possible that your nock is too low and that is what is causing that tear, but I could be wrong. Play around with your nock point and see what happens. *If it is that the nock is too low - there is no way to tell what is going on with the spine.*


My nocking point is at 3/8ths above the leather shelf..which it doesnt really sit on top of..it "nestles down in a groove" i created between the leather shelf and the strike plate..my arrow is visably jacked in the rear..besides..i guess you missed what i was hoping folks might take note of...which is..while my fletched shafts tore straight up nock-high?..my bareshafts didn't..they were pretty much on the money..but at 10, 15 & 20yds?..they all group together which is why i value bareshafting over paper-tuning.especially when shooting fingers off the shelf..it's been my experience that fletching contact can have a dramatic effect when attempting to punch bullet holes in paper at 6-8 feet...i've seen in the past where trad shooters switched from the cheapy gateway died feathers to the expensive real barred turkey feathers and they were so thick and stiff it threw their tune out..almost unshootable..might as well been trying to shoot plastic veins..i might also add that i took note in your vid that the feathers on your beeman500's were about an inch longer than those on your cheetah400's..i'd be very interested to see how your tune goes with both of them "Bare"...but as long as my bow is grouping bare with fletched out to 20yds? (and it is)..that nock point aint going nowhere...despite what that paper says..besides..i aint never killed anything at 6-8 feet anyways. LOL!



sharpbroadhead said:


> Good luck with your leg - I was one of the lucky ones to get adult onset type one diabetes - I am on an insulin pump now and that has made life easier and my sugars are better - but I am sure I too one day will be facing issues with either my legs, kidneys, or eyes.


Watch going on any airline flights with that pump..i hear they can get wacky on commercial jets.



sharpbroadhead said:


> thanks for taking the time to make the video - if you get time play with the nock locator and see what happens and post it - along with all the specs of your arrows, your bow, and your shelf and strike plate.


Arrows: GT3555 XT Hunters, 30"s Front of shaft to back of shaft, GT Premium Nocks, 145gr GT EZ-Pull Points, 4" Shield Cut Feathers

Bow: 62" Bob Lee TD Hunter 54#@28", 14 Strand B50, Strike Plate .062 BLK Rubber, Leather Shelf, Tip Of Arrow is just to left of string when centered up...Damascus Glove shooting split finger. 



sharpbroadhead said:


> btw - I am telling your wife on you!


go ahead...she'll act the same either way and she's heard far worse. LOL!

L8R, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

B50 - ok - that can explain part of it - by not using a fast flight string it is like reducing your bow weight by 10lbs - I notices the different tears - but paid no attention - I never saw a reason to shoot barehsafts through paper - and you are correct - that the fletching can effect arrow flight - but since you are shooting a fletched shaft - shouldn't that be the shaft that you have fine tuned verses the bareshaft - you have actually illustrated why I paper tune -and I was hoping you cought it - but you took a different approach to it - that seems odd to me.

You rightly said that the paper tuning showed that your fletched shafts were not flying correctly - so instead of fixing them - you just say you don't believe in paper tuning? I don't get it - my logic is - since I don't hunt or shoot bareshafts - I want my fletched shafts to be flying as good as I can get them - and the only way to do that is by paper tuning.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I still think paper tuning is a great way to check your arrows/tuning . 

. 

The Easton alloy chart seems pretty spot on for my centreshot and past centre cut recurves for alloys .

Don't know much about carbons .......


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have found the same thing - the arrow makers charts are now made for modern recurves - some specify recurve or longbow - and they are based on a centershot or slightly past center bow with a fast flight string - and to me they are a far better starting point than the calculator.

It seems to me that guys are taking this "dynamic spine calculator" and that is it - they are not tuning - I cannot tell you how many times I read guys say my arrows fly great and they are exactly what the calculator said - and then you ask if they bareshafted or paper tuned and they say - NO! What????


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> B50 - ok - that can explain part of it - by not using a fast flight string it is like reducing your bow weight by 10lbs - I notices the different tears - but paid no attention - I never saw a reason to shoot barehsafts through paper - and you are correct - that the fletching can effect arrow flight - but since you are shooting a fletched shaft - shouldn't that be the shaft that you have fine tuned verses the bareshaft - you have actually illustrated why I paper tune -and I was hoping you cought it - but you took a different approach to it - that seems odd to me.
> 
> You rightly said that the paper tuning showed that your fletched shafts were not flying correctly - so instead of fixing them - you just say you don't believe in paper tuning? I don't get it - my logic is - since I don't hunt or shoot bareshafts - I want my fletched shafts to be flying as good as I can get them - and the only way to do that is by paper tuning.


Well Ken..this spins us right back to the age old debate of "Bareshaft VS Paper Tuning" when your primary question at hand was "Proper Spine"..and by putting two bareshafts through that thin cheesy paper pretty much spot on i figure that's just one of the examples of how weaker arrows than "you" would think or shoot actually work well for others..and i for one found long ago when i did paper-tune my compounds that the weaker arrows were more forgiving and easier to tune..especially for finger shooters...extra especially for finger shooters shooting off a hard shelf where fletching contact is imminent..and i could flip the question and ask..

"How do you know your arrows are properly spined when your tuning out fletching contact for a bullet hole through paper at 6'?"

and one way to prove that out would be to show us all how well your fletched and bare shaft arrows group at 20yds..hey..

i did what you requested. 

And tell ya what Ken..you keep your bow tuned right where it's at and put 3 bare and 3 fletched in a coffee cup sized group at 20yds?..and i'll move my nocking point and give ya a perfect bullet hole through paper at 6'...how's that? 

But remember Ken...this was not about tuning methods...this was about how you couldnt understand why others suggested spines and point weights that work for them that you felt were too weak..and basically?..you called me out on that and i believe i just proved beyond a fletch..mine aren't..and that "Subtract 10# for B50"?....BS..maybe 10fps but not 10#s.

Here's wishing you luck from a guy named Jinkster and L8R, Bill.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, it's pretty obvious one should be tuning for dynamic spine of the shaft and not tuning for fletch, but by reading your explanations, you seem to have no problem with the concept


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jinkster - at 20 yards I can pretty much do that - I score in the 270's in 300 rounds

Regarding the 10 pounds of bow weight - check it out - it is not BS

Also - I have said in NUMEROUS posts regarding these arrow spine questions - that of course if you are shooting a dacron string - things are different - or if you are building out your strike plate etc... - things will be different.

I did call you on it - and you have to fix you nock height issue before we can tell what is going on - but being that you are using a Dacron string - I would not be surprised that a weaker spine is needed. The standard today is not Dacron - it is fast flight - and when new guys come on here with the bows that they just bought - they almost always come with a FF string Even the very inexpensive Sage from Samick comes with a Dyna Flight String - so to advise new guys to use arrows that fly right out of a bow with Dacron on a bow with FF is wrong.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm with jinkster:

Walkback and group tuning has proved to me that a slightly weak shaft is a better option for finger shooters. Paper tuning favors a stiffer spine, so it will always validate choosing a spine which is stiffer than required.
Its easy to get beginners tuned using paper because it accepts a pretty wide range of acceptable tunes, they all just happen to be on the stiff side. Of course we've been down this road before.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - paper tuning favors a stiffer spine - LOL - that is hysterical - I am going to have a talk with my paper and let it know that favoratism is not right. That darn slow motion camera favors a stiffer spine too - heck my wife favors a stiffer spine - glad I use stiff spined arrows.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jinkster - at 20 yards I can pretty much do that - I score in the 270's in 300 rounds
> 
> Regarding the 10 pounds of bow weight - check it out - it is not BS
> 
> ...


Oh well...i can see where this is headed...so before it goes to the locker room i'll just end of with this..same bow, same arrows, same everything....at 15yds..

http://Jinkster.vidmeup.com/view?q=4f0cc8a841797.flv

and just think...if ya ever get caught in a sudden, shortlived downpour (like we have so many of here in florida) with your wet feathers?...having a bareshaft or two in your quiver can be a beautiful thing..but only if your bareshaft tuned. 

Peace, Out..Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jinkster - I think i have said ad nauseum - that arrows that are not necessarily tuned can be shot accurately - so I guess I don't see what your are trying to prove


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - paper tuning favors a stiffer spine - LOL - that is hysterical - I am going to have a talk with my paper and let it know that favoratism is not right. That darn slow motion camera favors a stiffer spine too - heck my wife favors a stiffer spine - glad I use stiff spined arrows.


We've been around this before, you were wrong then (and proven); your wrong now. Paper tuning does not provide enough feedback to tune a bow shot with fingers, getting perfect bullet holes generally results in a stiffer tune then optimum. Otherwise you would not being able to use it with a new archer, if it was as sensitive to tune as you claim then they would not be consistent enough to have repeatable results.

Paper tuning makes a fine rough start or gut-check, bareshaft makes a decent second step. Ultimately walk-back and group tuning is the only way to really know whether you have an optimum set-up.

-Grant

P.S. I've never even heard of paper tuning being mentioned in the FITA forum, it doesn't even enter in discussion for a reason.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I was proved wrong - really - hmmm - I seem to remember you challenging me to film how my bareshafts grouped with my fletched and I seem to remember you admitting that you were surprised. Paper does not lie and does not have favorites - it simply shows arrow flight simple as that.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

for those who do not know what grant is talking about by walk back - he seems to think that the only way to tune an arrow is to shoot bareshafts and fletched arrows at 100 yards and see if they group. Guys- you can all believe and do what you want - but if a bareshaft is flying straight at 20 yards - it will still be flying straight at 100 - and if a fletched shaft is making perfect bullet hole tears at 6 feet - before the fletching has a chance to correct flight issues - it will certainly be flying perfect at 20 yards or 100 yards - so for those of you who do not have a range where you can shoot 100 yards - don't worry - you can still tune your arrows and tune them just fine.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> for those who do not know what grant is talking about by walk back - he seems to think that the only way to tune an arrow is to shoot bareshafts and fletched arrows at 100 yards and see if they group. Guys- you can all believe and do what you want - but if a bareshaft is flying straight at 20 yards - it will still be flying straight at 100 - and if a fletched shaft is making perfect bullet hole tears at 6 feet - before the fletching has a chance to correct flight issues - it will certainly be flying perfect at 20 yards or 100 yards - so for those of you who do not have a range where you can shoot 100 yards - don't worry - you can still tune your arrows and tune them just fine.


Actually I said nothing of the sort and seeing how you are one to get your feathers ruffled about being called a liar I'll kindly ask you to rephrase that.

I specifically stated that walkback and group tuning would show you the most forgiving tune, neither one of those uses bareshafts. Perhaps you would like to review Tuning for Tens (which is free on the internet and widely considered an excellent resource) to familiarize yourself with these techniques, because you don't seem to know what they are.

As for your bareshafts: shooting a bareshaft at close range will tell you about as much as paper tuning, backing up to the maximum distance you are comfortable (in stages) will tell you a lot more. However sometimes an optimum tune doesn't result in the bareshaft landing precisely in the group, this is also covered in Tuning for Tens. For me I generally get a slightly weak tune once I've done my walk-back, which I prefer for 3D for a few reasons.

-Grant


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Wait one! Just saw the statment:


> by not using a fast flight string it _is like *reducing your bow weight by 10lbs*_


If I remove the FF-type string off my new 45# recurve and install a B50 string I stand to lose an efficiency of stored energy equivalent to *10# * of draw-weight, turning my recurve into a 35# draw-weight bow?????

I need to see the paper on the testing because I am considering removing the FF and installing a B50 string.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

mmorton said:


> if my arrows go where I'm looking, consistently, do I follow a chart that says my arrows are wrong or do I go shoot my wicked custom bow and have some fun and / or catch some dinner?


That depends on a number of questions you will need to ask yourself. 

Is maximizing your arrow's penetrating potential a primary goal of yours?

If the arrow charts or Stu's Calculator recomends an arrow with a .500 spine for your set up and you're using an arrow that's a .300 spine...chances are... your arrows are to stiff and you won't be able to exploit your arrow's penetrating potential if it's fishtailing all over the place.



mmorton said:


> if it ain't broke....don't fix it...


For the most part...I agree...but some archers don't realize how bad their arrows are fishtailing because most of us can't see what the arrows are doing as they fly towards the target. In some cases it's not that bad...and in others it is.

A tuned arrow is also a more forgiving arrow and has the potential to be more accurate for an archer.

It doesn't hurt for every archer to eventually do some experimenting with their gear by using some type of tuning technique.

If your arrows are going where you're looking...they may still go where you look even after tuning...and in the long run...you'll be better off with a tuned arrow.

The other scenario to consider is when you tune your arrow and they no longer are going where you look. You than have to decide if you want to modify your aiming technique or if you can live with shooting arrows not properly tuned but they hit where you look.

In most cases...compromises may need to be made to achieve the prefered result.

Ray :shade:


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## makingscents (Jun 9, 2011)

WindWalker said:


> As for paper-tuning a traditional bow, the person utilizing the tuning method had better be experienced with the method and be able to correctly deduce whether the off-tear is actually indicative of a problem of some type, is spine related, is bow-tune related, is form related, or all of the above; or the tail will wag the dog and the individual could end up making changes that makes matters worse.


:thumbs_up


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"but some archers don't realize how bad their arrows are fishtailing because most of us can't see what the arrows are doing as they fly towards the target."

Lighted arrow nocks seem to work great for this...at least they do for me..especially at dusk and on nights with a full moon......... and this thread reminds me... it almost time to get my fishing gear ready.......looks like you already caught a couple whoppers there sharpy...Congrats!,lol,lol........


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

this is the 59th post on this thread...24 are sharpbroadheads posts...lol you sure like to listen to yourself, dont ya


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

*paper test video*

http://youtu.be/uahj4o2_pRQ 
here is my video and having an issue. I shoot a martin L-100 longbow, 62" @28", 55# draw weight.. my DL is 29" Arrows-Easton xxx75 gamegetter, 400 spine cut to 30.5" with 125 tips 5.5" shield cut helical feeathers. Shot 6 feet from paper rack. Did test last night and saw that tear was slightly up and a bit right (like in last 3 shots in video as that was same set-up as last night). Spine, arrow length and tip weight is good according the the charts(I think). 

From what I read, if the tear is up, lowering nock point slightly would help. Did that and the first shots, as seen to the left on paper, were worse that the original tune. Last 3 shots shown on video are with original setup I have been using for a month with nock height 5/8" above square. The first 2 shots (only paper result shown) I had lowered nock to 1/2"above square with worse results, but did not have actual shots on video. Thoughts on getting a better paper result. For a goof, I shot a 500 spine full length arrow with 100 grain tip last night with same nock point and tear was huge and up (6 inches at least)


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

pooch - if your nock is too low - like I was saying to Jinkster - you can get a tear that looks nock high and does not give you any idication of spine because it gives false readings. Try moving your nock locator up just a little more and see if the tears are still like they were before - (slightly to the right) - if they are - then the arrows are reading stiff, which would not surprise me out of a traditional longbow. They don't seem too bad - you could probably correct the flight with a heavier point.

Just make sure that the issue is spine and not that the nock locator is still too low. Some guys, epecially if they shoot three under need to nock pretty high.

good luck


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - pooch - one more thing - if you are not using two nock locators - you might want to consider it - one under the arrow and one above the arrow - because - if the arrow is sliding down the serving after you release - you could be getting nock low flight no matter how high you raise your nock locator


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Pooch, 

I agree with Ken. That tail right tear (assuming you shoot right handed) is indicative of a stiff arrow. A heavier tip should reduce that some. Your tail high could be the result of a couple things. It could be the nock is too low. When I setup a new bow I generally start with the nock point higher than I believe is needed. I than begin to work it down to reduce the tail high. Say you start with a 3/4" nock point and have a 4" tear vertically. As you bring the nock down your tear should begin to get smaller. At some point as you bring the nock down your tear will start to get worse and the tail high will begin to increase again. That's the point where your arrow is bouncing off the shelf and causing a porpoise. When you figure that out bump the nock back up to the point where you had the smallest vertical tear. 
Now, if you do all this and still have some tail high issues you may need to look at your form. Excessive heeling of the grip can certainly cause the arrow to porpoise off the shelf. Uneven finger pressure on the string is another culprit. If you shoot three under this may not be much of an issue but it could be if you load all the pressure up on your ring finger. If you shoot split make sure to keep the pressure equal on the fingers or have slightly more on the middle finger. I've seen a lot of people shooting split put the majority of the weight of the string on the index finger and this tends to push the arrow down into the shelf. On the release this vertical torque of the arrow manifests itself as nock high by causing the arrow to rebound off the shelf. One other thing could be the material used on the shelf. A hard piece of leather on the shelf may look cool but I've found a softer material on the shelf like a piece of velcro tends to absorb a little bit of the inconsistencies from our releases and tends to result in cleaner flight. 

And, Ken, again, you are giving biased information again. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean somethings false. Your definition of perfect tuning is a bullet hole. That's great for a compound but for decades the the gold standard for finger shooters was a slight nock high-limber tear through paper up close. This generally results in a forgiving tune and straightens out easily. I've had people get bullet holes at 6 ft only to have a 2" right tear at 20 ft. Sometimes a persons got such a poor release that it takes a super stiff arrow to get a decent tear close up but as the distance increases the lack of paradox will begin to affect the arrow flight and cause stiff arrow reactions. 
Also, I've said this before, but a bareshaft that hits with fletched shafts at 20 yards doesn't always continue to do the same as the distance increases. I've personally bareshafted out 50 yards. I've had setups that would group bare and fletched shafts at 20 but at 40 would have bareshafts that would be over a foot or more off target. When you get to that distance very minor changes in brace height, nock point, etc will allow you to really fine tune the arrow. You won't see much change at shorter distances but they will affect the forgiveness and groups as you progress further back. For a person who bareshafts the rule is to normally tune the bareshafts as far as you normally shoot or your form will allow. I have to wonder if you've ever shot a bareshaft out past 20 yards. If you have and the continue to impact the same you've got a great tune. If you haven't than you should try it.

Chris


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

This stuff has to be confusing to new shooters, so for those that have no clue which of these methods to follow I offer the following.
I hate tuning, that the reason I don't shoot wheel bows with sights very often.
The more you shoot the less you tune, the more you tune the less you shoot. The simpicity of the stick and string is what turns my crank. As soon as I see a bare shaft I am looking for my glue and feathers. 3555's in carbon, 1916's in Al (you can refine this to 1816's for the lower and 2016's for the higher) or 45/50-55's in wood, full length with 125 to 145 heads and 5 inch feathers for any bow between 40 and 50 lbs and you are setup. Go shoot.
When you can put them all together at 20 yards back up. When you put them all together at 25 yards, back up. If a feather falls off glue it back on. That's how you tune a stick bow shooter and that's all that matters. Shoot more tune less, it's cheaper and yields maximun available time to the actual problem, the shooter.


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

I do use double nocks and when arrow is on string, maybe a 1/16" gap between arrow nock and lower string nock. Original setting of 5/8" above square saw the slight up and right tear as shown in last 3 shots in video. To correct it, I moved nock lower as per what I read, and it got worse (original 2 shots on paper in video was result). guess I will try try to move higher than the 5/8 " and see if that helps as I had not done that yet. I do shoot 3 under now and the anchor point is consistent. Have no heavier tips than the 125's so if the nock up adjustment doesn't work, will go buy some heavier tips and then try to change the riser pad change to bear hair (got some left)



sharpbroadhead said:


> pooch - if your nock is too low - like I was saying to Jinkster - you can get a tear that looks nock high and does not give you any idication of spine because it gives false readings. Try moving your nock locator up just a little more and see if the tears are still like they were before - (slightly to the right) - if they are - then the arrows are reading stiff, which would not surprise me out of a traditional longbow. They don't seem too bad - you could probably correct the flight with a heavier point.
> 
> Just make sure that the issue is spine and not that the nock locator is still too low. Some guys, epecially if they shoot three under need to nock pretty high.
> 
> good luck


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Straight8 - really - show me where I can read this decades of "gold standard" paper tuning for recurves saying that the tear should be high and "limber" - I assume that means weak - also show me any evidence that if you get a bullet hole at 6 feet somehow magically at 20 yards you get a tear that is different. Please site some sources of this. Here is a video from several years ago that I made - where I shoot through paper from 6 feet all the way back to 20 yards - and this was made long before I ever heard of your "gold standard" - just in case you think I falsified the video in some way - this video was made in 2008 - odd that my tears are perfect from any distance.

I must be the most amazingly unique shooter in the world - because I, along with all of the people I have helped tune go agains all these supposed "gold standards":


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Pooch:

A bit of constructive assessment and advice; get off the paper. In fact, don't rely _too much_ on bareshaft tuning at your point in time of learning to shoot the longbow. 

Upon viewing all of your videos it clearly obvious that aside of some tuning issues you have not yet resolved, you have some major form issues that start at the time you lift your bow, through your entire shot cycle. These issues are common for new shooters. 

As I and others have warned, paper-tuning is a method that you had better fully understand, as well as bareshaft tuning, or you and your setup can easily end up being worse off than when you started, and leave you completely frustrated. Paper tuning and bareshaft tuning _is primarily_ used to tune your equipment, not your form. 

Also, as I viewed your videos I detected that your snap shooting (fast release) may be partially due to possibly being overbowed.


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

Agreed on the snap shooting due to overbowage. Have slowed down and try and do 2 seconds at anchor consciously now. Shooting 3-4 dozen arrows 6 of 7 days for last few weeks is getting my stronger and shoulder is hurting less now. will be easier to hold longer once my 45# samick sage limbs come in comes in. I found three finger is much more consistent as far as shooting tighter groups and aiming better. Also, it easier for me to find consistent anchor point. At 6 yards, I am wokring on form, consistent anchor and shooting at the 5 different spots on my target. I do like to have the arrows as true as can be so trying paper tests with fletched arrows as I have no bareshafts. Not going to obsess, just wanted to test it out to get proper nock height. Will do one more video or test to see if I can get the tear smaller by raising the nock above the 5/8" that I've been shooting with. 



WindWalker said:


> Pooch:
> 
> A bit of constructive assessment and advice; get off the paper. In fact, don't rely _too much_ on bareshaft tuning at your point in time of learning to shoot the longbow.
> 
> ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have done some checking here - and though there are same slight variations to the methods of paper tuning for recurve bows - I have yet to find one that says the tear should be high and "limber"

here is what I found - and they all say that a bullet hole or single hole is ideal:

http://www.texasarchery.org/BoardMembers/RickStonebrakerPages/TuningForTens/TuningForTens.html

http://www.tenzone.u-net.com/Equipment/tuning/pdfs/tuning01.pdf

http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/basic1.htm

http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downloads/software/tuning_guide.pdf

I spent about an hour surfing the net to find anyone that recommends that when paper tuning a recurve the tear should be high and limber - not a single one. If there is such a recommendation - please let me know where to find it - i would be interested in reading the logic behind it.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _just wanted to test it out to get proper nock height. Will do one more video or test to see if I can get the tear smaller by raising the nock above the 5/8" that I've been shooting with.
> _


Righteous; but be aware that what you are reading on paper or bareshaft may also, or mainly, be the direct result of poor form.

Poor arrow flight is not always and just the result of improper arrow or arrow setup or bow tune. It is not uncommon for someone to adjust a tune that compensates for bad form or an improper setup, only to find his or herself back at first base when their form improves and their setup/tune is now correct. As result, the person again starts changing or tweaking things they should or need not change or tweak; Catch-22!

Ya putting the cart in front of the horse, pooch.

PS: Here is an example of a tidbit of info that many do not know regarding alloy shafts but can be a factor when properly matching arrow spine to bow and tuning same: An XX75 alloy reacts _dynamically weaker _than an XX78 alloy regardless both may have the same deflection rating.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Pooch - if you are new to archery - don't worry about tuning at all until your form is consistent - you will just drive yourself nuts.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Anybody have any bullet holes to show with arrows that the arrow makers spine charts would say are too weak? Again - without using a dacron string or pushing your plunger or strike plate out?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

This arrow spine thingy rampage, same or similar, is not the first time, here and on other sites, nor will it be the last. No matter how many experienced shooters send Sharp to the ground in flames, he comes right back for more.

*LINK:* Dem mfg arrow charts always be spot on....maybe not :wink:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

WindWalker said:


> This arrow spine thingy rampage, same or similar, is not the first time, here and on other sites, nor will it be the last. No matter how many experienced shooters send Sharp to the ground in flames, he comes right back for more.
> 
> *LINK:* Dem mfg arrow charts always be spot on....maybe not :wink:


wow...that was both confirming and enlightening..and sad...Semper Fi WindWalker!...i guess some folks love guiding others down their garden path cause only they know where all the snakes are...like i said...sad.


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

*final paper tune test...happy now. back to practice*

Here is new video: http://youtu.be/h3iycm8MQtg

Sharphead- I am not new to archery, just traditional bows. Been shooting/hunting with compounds for 20 years and paper tune them every season. Here is today's video with nock point adjustments. First two shots are 3/4" to bottom of top nock point and still tear up. Second 2 shots are back to just a hair higher than 5/8" that I had shown yesterday and they are perfect as far as I'm concerened now. As you can see, much better and done playing with nock point now. Happy now. Did bring up lower nock so that it was a true 1/16th" below the arrow when nocked and since I had bow strung up for last two days, the BH creeped to to 7 1/2" from the 7 5/8" I had been shooting it at. Maybe the combo of adjusting the BH and the nock point made it right. As far as space between arrow nock and lower string nock, I think there was a bigger gap when I shot almost same nock height as seen on video yesterday that made the tear. Who knows. 

@ Windwalker- I think my form is much better than it was from first videos, even overbowed as I may be.... I'll try and post another video with my new 3 under technique next..... and another one where i hit the frame of the paper tuner.....oops.

QUOTE=WindWalker;1063293703]Righteous; but be aware that what you are reading on paper or bareshaft may also, or mainly, be the direct result of poor form.

Poor arrow flight is not always and just the result of improper arrow or arrow setup or bow tune. It is not uncommon for someone to adjust a tune that compensates for bad form or an improper setup, only to find his or herself back at first base when their form improves and their setup/tune is now correct. As result, the person again starts changing or tweaking things they should or need not change or tweak; Catch-22!

Ya putting the cart in front of the horse, pooch.

PS: Here is an example of a tidbit of info that many do not know regarding alloy shafts but can be a factor when properly matching arrow spine to bow and tuning same: An XX75 alloy reacts _dynamically weaker _than an XX78 alloy regardless both may have the same deflection rating.[/QUOTE]


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

oops.... yesterday's oops from paper tuning. http://youtu.be/6o6Bfi5hybg


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> This arrow spine thingy rampage, same or similar, is not the first time, here and on other sites, nor will it be the last. No matter how many experienced shooters send Sharp to the ground in flames, he comes right back for more.
> 
> *LINK:* Dem mfg arrow charts always be spot on....maybe not :wink:


A part of me feels embarressed for people when they think they got all the answers when they're only basing it on the little boxes their lives have created with just their personal experiences and personal knowledge....when the reality is...life doesn't revolve around them...and there is a whole other world out there besides the one they have put limits on.

A HUGE mistake for anyone is to convince themselves that if they haven't experienced or witnessed something first hand....that it must be impossible. In many cases these people feel privilaged to feel they some how have the right to belittle or berat anyone else who may have a different expereince.

Question each other? YES!...There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with having doubts...BUT don't try to pass your opinions as the end all and act like everyone has to be wrong because they don't share the same experiences as you have.

In some cases there is a definitive answer and in others...there are just generalizations.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I LOVE THE OOPS video - LOL

For being new to trad and still working on your form - I think your doing great and would not mess with tuning now for a few months - don't even give it a 2nd thought - but I do think they are still a tad stiff - but that is ok for now - just work on your form and shooting for a month or more and then maybe revisit the tuning and see what is up.

good luck - and most importantly have fun


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

pooh - actually - seeing how consistent your tears are - try one more thing - try moving your silencers closer to the limb tips and see what happens - that might get rid of that slight nock right you are getting.


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> pooh - actually - seeing how consistent your tears are - try one more thing - try moving your silencers closer to the limb tips and see what happens - that might get rid of that slight nock right you are getting.



Thanks... Will consider trying that, but don't want to mess with it too much more for now....


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

3 under form... peace out to all for today... http://youtu.be/VwjKkPvdrsU


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Sharp, 

Okay, so I just tested every arrow I could easily lay hands to, everything from 2016's to .500 carbons, to .400 carbons, to 2117, with both bare shaft and paper. Even the .400 carbons with 100 grain tips spined weak (full length) with my Sage at 44# draw weight. Both .400 spine arrows bareshafted reasonably well from 10 yards, with, paradoxically, the 2117 doing the best in this regard (with plastic vanes...just had them hanging around) at 30.5 with 125 grain tips. I didn't paper test that one, as I'd run out of paper by that time. I have a lot of video, and no time to edit it down to something that makes sense. In point of fact, I'm a little nonplussed by the whole thing right now. I suppose I'm down to testing 340s next, to see if anything reads as if it is strong enough. 

The weird thing is...the worse the arrow tested, the more accurate I am with that particular setup. The one thing I did find was that my nocking point was too high. So, something came of it. I'll be back around with more when I have time to analyze results, but I will be at a convention for the next few days, and thus out of contact.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

thorwulfx said:


> Sharp,
> 
> Okay, so I just tested every arrow I could easily lay hands to, everything from 2016's to .500 carbons, to .400 carbons, to 2117, with both bare shaft and paper. Even the .400 carbons with 100 grain tips spined weak (full length) with my Sage at 44# draw weight. Both .400 spine arrows bareshafted reasonably well from 10 yards, with, paradoxically, the 2117 doing the best in this regard (with plastic vanes...just had them hanging around) at 30.5 with 125 grain tips. I didn't paper test that one, as I'd run out of paper by that time. I have a lot of video, and no time to edit it down to something that makes sense. In point of fact, I'm a little nonplussed by the whole thing right now. I suppose I'm down to testing 340s next, to see if anything reads as if it is strong enough.
> 
> ...


340 spined arrows off of a 44 lb bow ?????????

Good luck with that

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

well folks..initially i declined sharps challenge where he sorta just plain called me out in his vid by the numbers (and even admitted so in a later response)..but then i felt bad about being called out and not answering that call...so i did..and conducted an honest, off the cuff vid of me shooting 5 of my 30" GT3555 XTHunters (3 Fletched/2 Bare) Tipped w/ 145gr points off my 54# Bob Lee TD Hunter..through very thin parchment paper..stuffs just this side of rice paper..so thin you can actually see through it..my 3 fletched shafts all tore straight-up and alike showing about 1 1/2" nock high..while my 2 bareshafts pretty much bullet holed through with exagerated tears due to the parchment paper..as seen in this vid..

http://Jinkster.vidmeup.com/view?q=4f32f40cddaac.flv



and?..the results were all news to me cause "i don't paper tune shooting fingers off the hard shelf of a stickbow"..and that vid above is probably the only time in my life i ever will..and it was just to appease sharp..cause what i do is this..

None of my shafts ever see a fletch until i tune them "ALL" in "Bare"...for example: 

1. these shafts came from the factory right about 31"s long so i had about a 1/2" cut off both ends..

2. Then i make sure the ends are trued on a G5 squaring tool..glue in the inserts and insert the nocks.

3. Next i set a "rough" nocking point and selected tip weight by shooting 3 bareshafts using different weight tips each time..in this case with my 30" GT3555's?..I started out with 100gr points and they struck tail right/slightly high..then 125gr points and still just a touch right/slightly high..then installed 145gr tips and viola..shafts hit in line just slightly high..lowered the nock point about three wraps of serving and Bingo..featherless bullets..and now that i got the proper tip weight and nock point established?..

4. I "Clock The Nocks" by shooting all my shafts "bare"..i leave the main group in the target and pull the fliers..then turn the nocks 1/4 turn at a time untill they group with the rest..then repeat the process all over again..until all of'em group together repeatedly acknowledging when it was a shoot execution failure on my part and pull for a re-shoot and then?..

5. I finally fletch all but 2 per dozen (which i leave bare for testing and form practice)

afterwards i do the final tune by bareshaft testing at 10, 15 and 20yds.

but ya know what?..i feel like a schmuck for having ever bothered paper testing to appease sharp as i did yesterday..cause i knew it would be like winning the lottery if i did get a perfect bullet hole with fletched arrows and if i did win those odds?..then i'd be worried! LOL!..cause as far back as i can recall?..when it came to finger shooting?..wether it be compounds or stickbows?..we considered paqper tuning as a practice reserved only for the most anal of those with wheels, cables, 3' stabs, levels, plumb bobs, magnified sights and a trigger..for us?..while it may serve as a good starting point for a rookie attemting to select proper spined arrows?..it was "Tuning 1.0"..in other words?..just a place to "get in the ballpark"...and the real tuning came when the fletchings come off a couple..cause as i've said before..i've paper tuned and shot bullet holes only to shoot crap groups at 40yds..but if i bareshaft?..they stay together to the next zip code..and tonight?..i'm even more aggravated with myself cause as i shot my longbow trying to relax?..it was haunting me..the paper test and sharp claiming my nock point was too low so my results were skwed..so i went inside and grabbed the Bob Lee one more time just to re-assure myself and at 15yds?... 



















I aint changing a dang thing no matter what sharp or the parchment paper says! LOL!

Thanks for watching and reading and L8R, Bill.


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Mac,

I know! Cats chase dogs, it's the end of the world.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

.340's are going to be too stiff - It is more likely that your nock locator is too low and you are getting false readings through paper - which is also an indication that your arrows are not tuned.

The bottom line is this - if you arrows are tearing the paper to heck - they are not tuned or your form needs improvement - it is a simple as that.

If you form is not consistent - tuning should be put off until your form is consistent


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

pooh - you form looks great in that video - it seems to me that you are very consistent - and that is the most important thing in archery


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> well folks..initially i declined sharps challenge where he sorta just plain called me out in his vid by the numbers (and even admitted so in a later response)..


Ya should have gone with your gut. That was your first mistake :wink:



JINKSTER said:


> "i don't paper tune shooting fingers off the hard shelf of a stickbow"..and that vid above is probably the only time in my life i ever will..and it was just to appease sharp..cause what i do is this.


Most trad archers don't need to...and your bareshafting test partially explains why.

Not everyone can get a super clean release or needs to....as long as it's consistent....so paper tuning is generally left for those that are anal or don't trust bareshaft tuning that much.

The key...as with most of our archery choices...is to find what works best for us that meets our goals and abilities.

Some of us just don't need to be super anal about our choices....yet I know I personally can be.



JINKSTER said:


> None of my shafts ever see a fletch until i tune them "ALL" in "Bare"...for example:
> 
> 1. these shafts came from the factory right about 31"s long so i had about a 1/2" cut off both ends..
> 
> ...


Looks like you take your tuning seriously....and it seems to work well for you.

but ya know what?..i feel like a schmuck for having ever bothered paper testing to appease sharp as i did yesterday.

2nd. mistake. No need to appease sharp when he doesn't do the same.



JINKSTER said:


> I aint changing a dang thing no matter what sharp or the parchment paper says! LOL!


Now your talking!!! :thumbs_up 

You can only tune to the best of your ability...and it seldomly hurts to try out new things...generally speaking.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is what I call a tuned arrow: 









This is what Jinkster and those disagreeing with me call a tuned arrow:









I asked for someone to show me a light spined arrow that is tuned through paper - and the above is what I got - you be the judge. Also - note that in the two bottom tears - where the nock locator was lowered - the tears are both showing nock left - a weak arrow.

I am not an exceptional or magical archer - I just have learned how to tune and have consistent form. Anyone can get bullet holes through paper if they have consistent form and arrows tuned to the bow - ANYONE - I have helped several people to do it.

If you can't get good tears and your form is consistent - then you simply are not using arrows that are tuned to the bow - and all the protestations aside - the facts are the facts and the paper does not lie or play favorites - it is what it is - the paper is simply a record of how your arrow is flying - nothing more nothing less - and some of these guys can say all sorts of things - but the fact is - the tear is exactly how the arrow is flying - it is up to you to figure out why the arrow is flying like it is.

I am more than willing to help anyone I can to get their arrow tuned - sometimes without actually being there and watching someone shoot - it is not possible - but if there is anything I can do to help - I will be more than happy to share what I have learned over the years.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> This is what Jinkster and those disagreeing with me call a tuned arrow:


Are you sure about that?


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## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

Sharp,

On my first round of testing, the primary indication was nock high--straight vertical tear. I lowered the nock somewhat and retested with my first batch of arrows. From there, I got consistent tears with .500 spine arrows that went high and left. .400s made shorter tears, with the carbons making the shortest, and straight left, rather than high and left. 

When I did a secondary check with each batch of arrows, I got marked nock left with bareshafts on both the .500 spine arrows, along with impact to the right. The .400 bare shafts hit slightly off kilter with nock high and a little left, but grouped with the others. The fletched arrows of all varieties hit the target straight and grouped up normally. I will mention that the process took its toll on my arrow stash, as I ended up killing my bareshafts for both .500 carbon and 2016 in the fracas.

I was not seriously contending that a .340 would be in any way reasonable for a 44# bow, I primarily found myself wondering at what juncture I would end up experiencing a stiff arrow reaction. 

I feel okay about my form at this point. It's not competition-worthy, but the paper tears were replicated identically, shot after shot. At this point, however, I'll have to do more testing, as well as trying a slight elevation of the nock locator on the Sage to see if that cleans things up a little. I am in no way the personality type to get hung up on tuning, but I do find it interesting to experiment. Thus far, the findings I have seem contradictory. 

For the moment, I am going to say...apparently, my arrows are not tuned, and I'll leave off giving any specific advice about arrows until I can satisfy myself as to why not. I never had a particular axe to grind or point to make on this thread, but if I had, I would feel compelled to concede it now.

More to come (in a few days),

Patrick


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

ill have to build one and try it out. i just been bare shafting to 20 yds then seeing how the broadheads fly. just need to find a box and ill give it a shot tomorrow seeing how im in the process of tuning the bow kegan made (which is a speed demon BTW). 

just for the heck of it. my one bows is 47# @ 26" (my draw is 26") im using full length 3555, 50 gr inserts and 200gr tips 5" feathers, think its cut to center. string is a SBD 6 strand these seem to fly great. Kegans bow is 50#@26" my full length cx heritage 90's (500 spine) with the standard insert and 200 gr tips and 5" feather are showing weak (dont know the center shot or strad count). These sound under or over spined given my set up?


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Ken,
My point was misconstrued by you ( a surprise... I know). A bullet hole is ideal if you can achieve it. However, not everyone can tune their bows to get a bullet hole especially when tuning off the shelf. Read through the links you posted. Two of them specifically state this. They also state a tear up close of less than one inch is acceptable as long as it straightens out as you progress further back. As far as the the "gold standard" (love the sarcastic quotation marks, btw) that comes from experience and not something written in books. Now, I know, it's preposterous that something that isn't written in books can be true but bear with me. I was the retail manager at an archery only store here in South-Eastern WI for app. 3 years that sold over $1,000,000 in archery gear and well over 1,000 bows a year. We had a policy that if you bought a bow from the store it was guaranteed that we would get the customer and bow tuned. The store owner is a huge believer in paper tuning so that was the method we used. We had every arrow that we sold, spined at the shop, racked from most limber (weak) to stiffest and we had one of every arrow from full length down to 26" in one inch increments. Now, who do you think did a very large portion of the paper tuning while working there? It wasn't the owner...

So, in my time I tuned more people than I can honestly remember. From fully decked compounds to primitive bows and wood arrows. As the only guy who shot traditional equipment, by default, I got every paper tune appointment that came for customers with recurves and longbows. Now, how the "gold standard" ties in (there's the sarcastic quotes again :wink. You see the owner was in business since the early eighties when alot of folks still actually shot fingers. He always preached that for a finger shooter a bullet hole is all well and good but if you can't get it the next best thing would be a slight tail high-weak reaction up close at say 6-8 feet that straightened up at 15 feet. That slight rip up close ensured the paradox cleared the shelf and that 99% of the time broadheads would impact very close to fletched shafts. When I say a slight tear I mean less than a half inch in either direction. It goes without saying that a 2" tear in any direction isn't really tuned well. I'm talking the very, very minimal tears. The other reason a slight high-weak tear was ok was for the hunting archer. Lots and lots of guys hunt out of tree stands and in the fall when the weather turns cold. Sharp angled shots tend to reduce the drawlength a little. So does being bundled up and cold. Both of these things tend to make the arrow react a little stiffer. With a slightly weak shaft it'll stiffen up very marginally and the broadheads should still impact very well. On the other hand an arrow which slightly stiff will have a greater negative reaction and the arrows are more likely to plane off a greater amount. 

I'd address some of the other stuff you've mentioned but I need to get some sleep. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering because you've been barking up this tree online for a few years now and no matter how many people explain things it just never gets through. 

Btw, I have three bows tuned to shoot broadheads. What arrows should I use according to the charts. It's been a longtime since I've looked. First is a string follow longbow. 68", [email protected], cut outside of center. Second is a Fedora 560 hunter, [email protected] 28, 58", cut I believe to center or a hair past. Last is a Whippenstick Inferno, 62" [email protected], again cut to center ( I think). All bows drawn 28", all have non-stretch (FF type) strings, simple stick on velcro for an arrow rest. I'd prefer an arrow that is 29-30". Tip weight is 100-145 grs. Do you think either of the bows will be able to shoot the same arrows and if so which bows and which arrows? Serious question.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ok - "gold standard" was in quotes because they were your words - I put them in quotes so that people would NOT think i was being sarcastic towards what you said not the other way around. I really don't want to go round and round with this - all I know is that without exception - every single person that I have helped set up was able to achieve bullet holes - without acception. I few times it took some time and thinking on both are parts to figure out what was going on - and some really fine tuning - like moving the silencers on the string - or adjusting the brace height - but in each case we were able to achieve bullet holes.

Now I can tell you that neither myself nor the guys I helped set up were special in any way - we are just average guys and we all managed to do it - yet you and a few others on here seem to make like it is some exceptional thing for a recurve shooter to get bullet holes - it's not - if it was - there would be no way that I would have been able to get several different people doing it.

Regarding your bows - I have said several times that I am talking about recurves - I don't know much of anything about longbows - other than that I would suspect some of the modern design longbows with fast flight strings would be shooting pretty much the same as a recurve - but I could be wrong on that too - I really have n experience with longbows - every person I helped was shooting a recurve, with the exception of one who shot a Black Widow Longbow and that I was able to help tune the same as the recurves for him.

Regarding the charts - my only point was that with recurves - I beleive that the arrow makers charts are giving a much more accurate starting point for tuning than the "spine calculator" that is floating around the net - not that the arrow makers charts are the end all - tuning is always necessary and primary.

How many guys in here have said "stus calculator" got me set up and my arrows shoot great -and then when I ask them if they bareshafted or paper tuned - they say no! I believe far more people are blindly following this caclulator than are blindly following the arrow makers charts - and both would be wrong - tuning is a must.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Guys...you know..IMHO...there is just way to much bickering over this.


Both methods should be used..and both methods only reinforces the others findings for spine..I have always used both.....so...I guess that has made me double anal I suppose...but... how I was taught many many years ago..was...you bare shafted tested first to find the suitable range of spines and weights for the types of shafts you will want to use.....and like Jinkster said..adjust the nock...then...paper tune second to make sure your arrow componets are suitable for your bow set up...and then tune the bow if needed for what your trying to use...This is especially true if you are going to experiment with different size fletchings nock pressure..tabs..gloves..rest..strings...Paper tuning is valuble tool to use...but...they go hand in hand...and it's a complete process...There really isn't any short cuts if you want to do it completely..but you don't need to paper tune first just to find the range of spines that will work off your bow..but..if you want to be 100% sure of what you have done..it will show you real quick if it works or not..


Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

*For anyone new to this sport or wants to improve the tune of their current set-up.*

*Both* methods can help an archer tune their equipment...BUT....there needs to be some steps that come first.

Before ANY archer starts the tuning process....they need to have developed some consistentcy with their form.

Once some consistentcy has developed in their form...they need to research the different tuning methods so they will know which one best suits their needs and what to do with the results they get.

Most trad archers use one of the bareshaft tuning methods or broadhead tuning...if that tells you anything.

*NOT* everyone will be able to get perfectly flying bareshafts or bullet holes in paper.

The *KEY* is to tune to the best of your ability...and as your ability gets better...you can tune better.

It's really just as simple as that!

Ray :shade:


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Well, I checked a few of the spine charts and the results were more or less like I expected. Out of both of the recurves using 100-145 gr. tips and either a 29-30 inch arrow the charts show I should be using a 400 spined arrows. Easton's chart showed I should be using a 340 spine out of the Fedora. The charts are mixed for the longbow. A couple show that I should use a 400 spine and a couple say I could use either a 500 or 400.

Ironically, the arrows I shoot out of these bows aren't really close (with the exception of the longbow). With that bow (the Whippenstick Classic- string follow Hill style longbow) I shoot a 30" Victory V-force 500 spine with 145 gr. pts. I can shoot that bow with tips up to 200 grs. and have the broadheads impact with the fletched shafts. The Fedora 560 Hunter at 55 pounds shoots the same arrow. It shoots anything stiffer terribly. The Whippenstick Inferno shoots a 29" Beman ICS Bowhunter shaft with 100 gr. tips. I can go up to a 400 spine but I have to bump the tip weight up considerably to get the arrow flight to be acceptable. 

Unbelievable, right... http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v85/str8shooter/Video/?action=view&current=100_3737.mp4

I don't papertune or bareshaft much these days. I have a general idea of the arrow I need. I shoot fletched shafts and make the large adjustments until the arrows aren't wiggling around in flight. Once I have relatively clean flight I start backing up and shoot groups. I make very small adjustments to get the arrows impacting down the center at around 40-50 yards. Once I'm there I screw in broadheads and shoot them. Normally, they are pretty close and require little to no adjustment but not always. After I get broadheads and field points hitting together I may throw a few arrows through the paper or a bareshaft downrange. I do this more as a method so I know how the arrows are flying but I sure as heck won't stress if they aren't perfect according to some manual. Ironically, more often than not, I end up with an arrow that is generally very slightly on the weak side for tune. Through paper I normally have either a bullet hole or a slight high-weak tear.

Like I said, before a bullet hole is great but not achievable by everyone. It isn't the end point in tuning. Paper tuning is simply a method that gives you a snapshot of your arrow flight at a particular distance. If you have a bullet hole close up than normally they will continue to fly straight as you back up... but not in every case. It's harder for a traditional bow shot with fingers to have this happen because by the time you get an arrow stiff enough to do this normally it's crashing off the shelf and giving false weak readings. If you get a good hole at 6-8 feet go back to 15-20 and confirm. If it's good there you're done paper tuning. There is no need to go back further. Why paper test at 20 yards? The only way you'll get tears at twenty yards is if you have horrible arrow flight and you should be able to see that with the naked eye. Pretty simple.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

How far were you standing from the paper?

The Hill style bow is what I would expect - the Fedora - is not what I would have expected - if you are using a fast flight string and not building the strike plate out - so that is my question on that bow - is it a FF string and is the strike plate not built out? The other bow - I don't know about and could not comment.

But if you were standing 6 feet from the paper and shooting a 30" 500 spine arrow out of a recurve bow that is 55lbs at 28 or 29" with a 145 grain tip and the strike plate doesn't have a tooth pick behind it and it is not built out - that I must say does suprise me.

Thanks for taking the time to film this


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

All bows were shot from app. 6 feet kneeling on the floor in my basement. That's the only way I can get level with the paper without cracking my limbs on the rafters. None of the bows have the shelf built out at all. Just a simple piece of stick on velcro for the shelf and side plate. All bows equipped with 10-12 str. modern, non-stretch strings. Like I said, the bows are all cut to center with the exception of the longbow. 

There are other factors that play into how an arrow may tune and things like the draw force curve and shooter are big factors on how stiff or limber of an arrow you'll need. I can explain more if you're actually interested in learning but I have to get off to work now.

Later...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Str8 Shooter said:


> There are other factors that play into how an arrow may tune and things like the draw force curve and shooter are big factors on how stiff or limber of an arrow you'll need.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Am always interested in learning


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

it would seem to me then that your 55lb fedora is not as efficient as my 47lb Tradtech - because if my bow requires a stiffer spine - then it is putting more energy out than the Fedora - all else being equal - or is this thinking wrong


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> it would seem to me then that your 55lb fedora is not as efficient as my 47lb Tradtech - because if my bow requires a stiffer spine - then it is putting more energy out than the Fedora - all else being equal - or is this thinking wrong


It's not that it is necessarily wrong. It's an educated guess...BUT...they are other factors that could be involved. It's NOT necessarily that cut and dry.

Ray :shade:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Curious: Do Olympic archers paper tune?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Curious: Do Olympic archers paper tune?


no, not beyond very basic set-up.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well folks...kinda chuckled to myself today wondering why it is that we do what we do here..some may view it as arguing and bickering..some may view it as the the rancid self-comsumed egotistical ramblings of others..while others yet may veiw it in a more postive light..such as info sharing, learning experiences, and bottom line for me?..

cause it's simply "fun"...interacting with other like minded archers..provided you keep things in positive light and we are all truely blessed to have such a community where we can come to share our thoughts, experiences annnd?..at times "opinions"..and suddenly the world aint so bad..al biet ther are times a good pair of rose colored sunglasses can come in handy. :laugh:

That said?..another thing that can come in handy (as far as staying positive goes) is "an open-mind"..so this evening?..i decided to crack the door on mine just a tad and try something i've tried many times before..but since things have changed for me over the past 6 months or so?..things such as "increased upper body strength"..and?..."better form with a fuller, probably slightly longer draw"?..i decided to re-visit some of my old testings of arrows..and took 5 of my 29" long GT5575 (.400 spine) arrows (2 bare/3 fletched w/ 2" razor feathers) that i made up for my PSE Omen Compound and pulled the 125gr points and replaced them with 145gr points for bareshaft testing off my 54# Bob Lee Recurve..to be compared against my prefered 30" GT3555 arrows w/ 4" shield feathers and again 145gr points...this bareshaft testing was done from exactly 10yds..(as from last i recall any further and the GT5575 bareshafts would be slapping the target sideways) and?...here are the results...



















Now...i dont know how many of you might agree with me on this but..me?..shooting .400 spine arrows with *2" FEATHERS* with a damascus glove?..despite the angular results of that top group of .400 spine GT5575's?..i think that might conclude that i'm not having any "release issues"..including the fact that there was zero audible "clacking of shafts against the bow" on all shots taken...and i do believe it's conclusive that my nock point just might be somewhere's in the ballpark..but i'm sure there may be some that would dispute that but hey..it's all part of the fun...right?....now..

The one thing i have gleened from this thread is this..a few weeks ago i had a phone call with Rob Lee..during which I was surprised to discover that Rob claimed my old 2001 TD Hunter Model "IS" DynaFlight Compatible..(where from my best recollection at time of purchase they warned heavily against use of anything other than Dacron)..and since it will boost the performance of my Bob Lee Hunter?..I'm placing an order tomorrow to upgrade my string to dyna97..maybe at least that will enable me to drop some arrow weight on my GT3555's by dropping down to a 125 or maybe even 100gr points giving me a 45gr savings on overall arrow weight. 

Anyways..hope ya'll have a great weekend and enjoy some good shooting..i know i will! L8R, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Do olympic archers paper tune - well - here is a tuning guide for Olympic Archery:

http://harrogate-archery.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/archeryref.pdf - this guide was put together by gold and bronze medalist - Murray Elliot


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Do olympic archers paper tune - well - here is a tuning guide for Olympic Archery:
> 
> http://harrogate-archery.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/archeryref.pdf - this guide was put together by gold and bronze medalist - Murray Elliot


As usual Sharp your reading skills seem to be VERY selective. That guide mentions paper tuning twice, both times all it says is that it is useful for setting nocking point and determining if the spine is correct. The guide specifically states that it is for basic tuning and that fine tuning must be done at greater range.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> As usual Sharp your reading skills seem to be VERY selective. That guide mentions paper tuning twice, both times all it says is that it is useful for setting nocking point and determining if the spine is correct. The guide specifically states that it is for basic tuning and that fine tuning must be done at greater range.
> 
> -Grant


LOL....imagine that! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL....imagine that! :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Quoting references is part of what I do for a living. The first rule of quoting a reference is reading it thoroughly enough to make sure that it actually supports your view-point. Otherwise you stand there looking like an idiot.

-Grant


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Being that Sharp alleges he has me on permanent "Ignore," somone should inform Sharpy that he should not try so hard to be the No.1 fab archery Guru. He gets all rattled when he is opposed and just starts thowing out more junk without really evaluating what he is offering up.

The question was: *"Do Olympic archers paper tune?"*

Sharp offers:


> Do olympic archers paper tune - well - here is a tuning guide for Olympic Archery...this guide was put together by gold and bronze medalist - Murray Elliot


First of all, the compiled tuning guide is not meant to be a training manual for "Olympic" archers .....not Olympic competitors/contenders. The guide is a tuning guide for beginners and for experienced recurve archers with the emphasis restricted to _Olympic-type_ bows and shooting ...target shooting, 

**The Archers Reference (a great guide to archery *compiled* by Paralympics archer; Murray Elliot).

*Editor:* Murray Elliot 



> All of the information in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources including: Other archers, books, and (probably most of all) the internet. *I take no credit whatsoever for the content and wisdom contained herein.*..Archery is a science, and an art. Much has been written about archery down the years and there are many schools of thought regarding the right technique, but there is no right technique.-Murray Elliot


In a forum consisting of primarily (serious) target shooters, a forum where Murray posts, a member said "Murray and Joe (Tapley) in their guides, mentioned that paper tuning for finger releases is *contraindicated*."

*Contraindicated: to indicate the inadvisability of; inadvisable*

According to several that read and use Ellitot's and Tapley's guide advised that Elliot and Tapley have said


> "If you're a recurve archer substitute the paper tuning method for bareshaft tuning."


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

gee - hmmmm - we use paper tuning for nock locator height and arrow spine - imagine that - what a shock

Lets look at this Olympic Guide for tuning:

It says to begin, and I quote:* "Refer to the spine chart for the supplier of the arrows"* I wonder.....who on this forum has been saying that all along

Then the FIRST method recommended for nock locator positioning - is Paper tuning - and contrary to what grant claims - it says ntohing about this being only basic and that you have to do it at greater ranges.

Then it talks about bareshafting being better than paper tuning for finger shooters - which is the opinion of the writer of this paper - I do both and recommend both - but again - it says nothing about greater range or paper only being a basic tuning method. And Oddly enough - the author of this article never recommends shooting a bareshaft for tuning farther than 20 yards - I think someone in this forum also said that there is no reason to shoot further than that - i wonder who that was....

then the article goes on to quote the following: 

_Tune for tens (a complete tuning guide from Rick Stonebraker)_ - of which the article states: 

_Rick’s achievements in the archery world speak for themselves. Rick holds several Texas state records
and 15 or so state field, target and indoor titles. He is on the national archery association board of
governors, is an NAA level 4 national instructor, national judge, and Olympic judge. This list is not
exhaustive!
I have included his guide here in its entirety, and with his original wording._

Oddly - what is the first tuning method you think Rick Stonebraker instructs in his guide? Big shocker here - PAPER TUNING and guess what - NOWHERE DOES HE SAY THAT THIS IS BASIC TUNING 

he does go into "fine tuning" - but this is done WITH SIGHTS on a bow - and again - I seem to remember someone on this forum saying that these walk back methods and shooting past 20 yards for tuning is something that would only be beneficial if one shoots with sights and that this type of tuning is pointless for a guy shooting a barebow because we simply cannot shoot accurately enough for this sort of tuning without sights.


This is really silly - everything that I have said from the very beginning is right here and you twist it and misrpresent it to try and say that this is contrary to what I have said from the beginning!

Whatever

I learned one thing in this thread so far - that it is possible for a .500 spine arrow to be shot tuned out of a heavier bow than I would have thought possible - and for that I am thankful for Str 8 taking the time to make the video - and I look forward to his reply on why he thinks that is and what factors he has come to understand contribute to this.

Can't wait to read what you have learned about this Str8Shooter


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _"Refer to the spine chart for the supplier of the arrows" I wonder.....who on this forum has been saying that all along_


Where else would you look to start with? Sounds like things are coming full circle and about to start over. LOL!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sharp:

Read it again. Not only is it a guide for beginners, it also doesn't say what you are indicating it says.
The first refence to paper tuning is under the title of: "3.3.3 Step 3- nocking point". It is not mentioned in that section again.

I quote directly from "Tuning for 10s":
I have included his guide here in its entirety, and with his original wording. Some of the advice included
here mirrors that of previous sections, *but this system is devised as a start-to-finish process and
therefore to break it up would detract from the system.*

Paper tuning is mentioned only at the very beginning, at the roughest state of tune. It is not mentioned again.
The section "Tuning for perfection" indicates that fine tuning should be done at the maximum distance that you can hold a recognizable group. It makes no mention of sights.

The only person on this forum who is "saying that these walk back methods and shooting past 20 yards for tuning is something that would only be beneficial if one shoots with sights and that this type of tuning is pointless for a guy shooting a barebow because we simply cannot shoot accurately enough for this sort of tuning without sights." is you!

Tell this to the FITA barebow archers who regularly shoot 90m, you think they do that without tuning at that distance? I suppose they just paper-tune their arrows and assume they will group well at 90m.
The 18m bareshaft you see referenced at the end of that section is a baseline to allow you to speed set-up of that particular bow if you have to change the string or something.

Rick Stonebraker's Tuning for 10s is actually where I get most of my tuning information from, so I know it quite well. You might benefit from giving it the same attention.

-Grant


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Being that Sharp alleges he has me on permanent "Ignore," somone should inform Sharpy that he should not try so hard to be the No.1 fab archery Guru. He gets all rattled when he is opposed and just starts thowing out more junk without really evaluating what he is offering up.
> 
> The question was: *"Do Olympic archers paper tune?"*
> 
> ...


Fighting nonsense with logic will never work here, you have to get all those authors and experts to make Youtube videos before their point is proved


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

How's the weather where all of you are ?

This seems a lot more benificial for those looking for positive answers & queations on this thread...than all of this bickering..

Use both methods..damn...how frigging hard is that to say...

Mac


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Ken,
You asked if your 47 pound Pinnacle with Extreme BF limbs is more efficient than the 55# Fedora? To be honest, I'm not sure. You're comparing a set of limbs with cross-woven carbon and foam composites to basic wood glass limbs. If I had to guess I'd say your limbs are probably more efficient but Fedora's are no dogs when it comes to speed. A very critical factor in why you are able to shoot a stiffer spined arrow with 8 pounds less draw weight is because you draw nearly two inches further and your bow is likely cut a bit further past center. You're lucky to have a long draw. You get more horsepower out of a given poundage because you're applying that work over a greater amount of time and distance. I've helped tune guys with legitimate 26" draw lengths shooting 60+ pounds who had to shoot 500 spined arrows left a few inches long and heavy points. On the flip side I've tuned a few guys with legitimate 31-32" draws and had a very hard time finding arrows that were stiff enough even at lighter poundages. One of the toughest guys I ever had to help out shot a Black Widow MA that pulled app. 78# at his true 32" draw. There was no room to cut anything. He seriously pulled a full length 32.5" arrow with a broadhead all the way back until it touched the shelf. We shot the stiffest carbons available at the time and after a lot of messing around managed to get an arrow to fly well through paper and with a broadhead. Not bullet hole perfect at 6 feet but clean tears at 15 ft. The point is drawlength plays a very large part in your arrow selection.

I mentioned the draw force of a bow. Think about this. If you have a set of very high end ILF limbs with alot of early pre-load but drop to a very smooth 2 lbs per inch at full draw and compare them to a bow with a much softer early draw weight but gains more weight in the middle and just starts to stack at full draw and they both are the same poundage will they tune the same? Chances are they will not. The first set of limbs releases it's energy more gently when released as compared to the second bow which slams forward more violently at release. The impulse the arrow takes as the string is released is different. Chances are the first bow setup will tune to a softer spined arrow. A perfect example would probaly be something like the new Border Hex 6 limbs. From the reports of people shooting these limbs it seems they tend to tune to a more limber arrow than expected. Border says it is due to the high levels of torsional stability (and it may factor) but I'd think way the limbs react has a greater effect. Those limbs have very aggressive hooks and the string is taken up very smoothly. The impulse at release isn't very harsh because the limbs only gain a couple pounds an inch at the end of the draw cycle. Furthermore, those limbs are shot with a relatively low brace height. If you draw 28" and the limbs are braced at 6.5" the energy transfer takes place over 21.5". Smooth acceleration over a long period, less affect on the paradox of the arrow. 

The opposite would be a bow with say an 8.5" brace that gains alot of weight at the end of the draw cycle. When released there is a greater impulse initially which starts flexing the arrow more than bow 1. The brace height is also higher so for the 28" drawlength of the hypothetical archer that energy is transfered over only 19.5". More intial energy transfer over a smaller distance... usually means a slightly stiffer arrow may be required.

These aren't hard and fast rules because there will always be exceptions. But, just because two bows have the same poundage doesn't mean the react the same or tune the same. This doesn't even take into consideration factors like strings, tiller, type of rest material, etc. And, even with all these things the biggest factor will always be the archer. We used to say that a good tune meant the bow, arrow and shooter all work together. 

I'll post more tomorrow if this is still of interest. I gotta get to bed.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

*"I'll post more tomorrow if this is still of interest. I gotta get to bed."*

I'm with ya Str8..i'm pretty much played out on this..when i'm shooting off a hard shelf and bust'in nocks bareshaft on bareshaft & bareshaft on fletched and visa-versa from 10 & 15yds and i have (1) person telling me my bows out of tune and my arrows are mis-spined?...because i get a nock high tear through paper with fletched arrows and dang near bullet holes with bareshafts at 6'?....

it's time to move on...and ya know?..if i were shooting a metal riser oly bow with gobs of centershot clearance with a plunger type rest where fletching contact could be completely eliminated?..and doing it to punch paper competitively?..i may certainly want both clean holes through paper and great bareshaft test results but other than that?..obcessing over clean holes through paper at 6' with a wood riser trad bow?..I just got better things to do..(like enjoying shooting and polishing up form)..especially when my bareshaft test results are coming out just dandy. :laugh:

And now i wonder how many newbie trad archers here are going to run out and blow hundreds of dollars buying shafts, points and weights in an attempt to get that perfect bullet hole through paper at 6'. :laugh:

L8R, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Str8 - keep it coming - very interesting - I am actually printing your posts and keeing them with my archery books. The draw length I knew would be an issue - but I have never known exactly how much of an issue - and I guess in some of these posts where guys talk about their setups they just mention arrow length and not their draw lenght - and I (probably at times wrongly) assume if they are shooting a 30 or 31" arrow that they have a draw length at or past 28" - and that is not necessarily true. I make my arrows a bit longer so that if in the excitement of a hunt - i pull back futher and then come back down to my anchor - I am not slamming a broadhead into my hand or the bow - but I guess some guys shoot really long arrows to aim with.

I have played with brace height on several bows - and I have always found that the manufacturers highest recommended setting is the quitest and feels the best - so what I do is set the brace height at that mark and then tune around it - only once or twice with other guys did I use the brace height for tuning.

Again - thanks agian and please keep the posts coming - this is very interesting.

oh - and Jinkster - this forum is not just for beginners - so if you don't like the advanced conversations - just to comment on them. I think that myself and many others have said numerous times that beginners should not worry about tuning much at all until their form is consistent.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh - and Jinkster - this forum is not just for beginners - so if you don't like the advanced conversations - just to comment on them. I think that myself and many others have said numerous times that beginners should not worry about tuning much at all until their form is consistent.


LOL!..nice one sharp!..i almost blew coffee all over my keyboard :laugh: 'ing...

and in my own defense?..and only for those of you who may believe sharps inference that i'm a "beginner"?...

From the mid 80's too the early '90's i was a State Level Compound/Fingers shooter who at one time was Club Champion of Treasure Coast Archers several years running and recieved a letter of invitation to the NFAA Nationals..there was but two men who could beat me in this state and their names were Frank Gandy and Gary Giddens and i've shot with and competed against them numerous times..and they always beat me by a few points but then again?..their scores usually toppled that of the top release shooters..and in my younger years before settling down and raising a family?..i used to assist Brian Terpos on youth nights at our club acting as an aid and a coach..i also assisted local Boy Scout Troop Leader and Olypic Archer Burt Barber by educating and coaching Boy Scout troops to attain their "Archery Merit Badges" where Burt had me conduct an exhibition by me shooting ping pong balls dangling from sewing thread at 40yds to show the Scouts what could be achieved with a properly tuned bow and arrow and good form.

When i realized i just didnt have the time or goods to ever beat Frank Gandy or Gary Giddens?..I began coaching a young close hunting bud of mine..who also competed in NFAA BHFSL...his name was Steve White and he could hold rock steady...just needed some fine tuning and polishing...and Steve went on to become Florida NFAA State Champion several years running and upon winning his first state title?..he and his wife took my whole family out to dinner as a tolken of their appreciation for what i had done for him..a week later?..His Parents flew down from indiana to do the same thing and meet me where they insisted i come up to hunt their family farm in indiana as a tolken of their appreciation for what i had done for their son...and with all due respect and honesty?..i do believe that Mr. Frank Gandy had left the state by then..but Steve did manage to best Gary Giddens..how do i know?..i was there..i came in 3rd.

To me?..the only differences between me shooting compound/fingers and a tradbow are..

1. I'm holding 50lbs at my lip instead of 25 (i liked low let-off compounds for a clean more consistant release) and..

2. Getting a grip on gap/instinctive aiming methods.

Outside of that?..





























i think i'll let you all decide for yourselves wether or not i'm truely "a beginner" as sharp so abrasively infers. L8R, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - Jinkster - are the pics really necessary? I never said YOU were a beginner - I was refering to your last post in which you were compaining about our discussion and that it would mess up beginners. I could post a lot more pics of trophy's than that - but I would have to go through the boxes of them in my basement - I also know that Sr8Shooter could do the same. I don't know about St8Sooter -but I don't even accept trophies anymore from shoots because I have nowhere to go with them. You don't need to post a few pics of trophies to assure us you are not a beginner because no one said you were - except maybe you - when you told us a few months ago that you were brand new to traditional archery.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh - and Jinkster - this forum is not just for beginners - so if you don't like the advanced conversations - just to comment on them.


Your right sharp...you didnt call me a beginner..my bad..but i guess it was the "you telling me to shut up" part that got my goat as it sorta comes real close to bordering on a personal attack..with real poor sentence structure..and more than likely on purpose as your also a master baiter aren't you?..welcome back to my ignore list bud...and as i understand it that's s huge club.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> when you told us a few months ago that you were brand new to traditional archery.


Therein lays the misconception..i said i was brand new to trad sites and getting serious about trad..i've shot stickbows off and on since i was 8 years old..and i will admit i'm a returning archer from a long lay-off..and by my standards?..i currently $uck at it..but maybe next year?..or maybe even the year after..i'll be looking forward to meeting you in person..as i'm almost certain you're a much nicer guy than your wording depicts here.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I did not tell you to shut up - I said if you don't like certain converstations - don't comment on them - if you view that as a personal attack - or even close ot a personal attack - I just don't know what to say - are your sugar levels high - when mine are high I get really tense and take things the wrong way sometimes - maybe that is what is going on here - check your blood gluccose - we diabetics need to help each other out.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Drawlength is a very large factor in determining your arrow spine. First off, a guy with a shorter draw length has a lot more options for selecting and tuning an arrow to the bow. You want a light fast arrow? You can tune a lighter spined arrow with a light tip cut very close to your riser and make it work. Want mid weight? You can tune a little stiffer, longer arrow with a heavier point. Want something much heavier? Get some really heavy points and find an arrow that is stiff and heavy and leave them long and tune until the arrows fly great. But, if you have a longer draw you are more limited. As you shorten the arrow the spine reacts dynamically stiffer than a longer arrow (assuming the same spine... say a .400 deflection). Now, with a longer draw you are more limited because you can't shorten the arrow as much without the risk of overdrawing it. You are already starting with a longer arrow that will behave a little bit more limber, you have a draw that is longer than the average guy and you're bow is putting out more energy for the pounds pulled compared to someone with a shorter draw and identical weight. All these things factor into why a stiffer spine may be required for the draw weight you pull.

This is just fairly general info and nothing special but without having access to a lot of different arrows and bows it's not as easy to understand sometimes. I know before I started at the bow shop I thought I had tuning and shooting all figured out and man, was I wrong. I knew very specifically how to tune my particular bow but not how to tune others.

The individual factors become important as well. Tuning in general is simply getting all the parts of the system working together so the end result is clean, accurate arrow flight. The bow, the arrow, the shooter... that's the system. A basic traditional bow has relatively few things you can adjust to tune it. String type, brace height, nock point, shelf thickness, silencers (type, placement or lack thereof). On a more adjustable, modern setup you can adjust tiller, preload, rest and plunger which gets more involved. But still relatively simple compared to a modern compound and the accessorries that accompany it. The arrow can be manipulated by spine, length, tip weight, fletch size and type. You can finetune with small things like adding wraps or unibushings, nock type and groove diameter, etc. 

And all this has to be configured to the shooter. Everyone has different quirks and small variations in form and bow handling can make big changes in arrow flight. I can take my bow, which I shot bullet holes in the paper on my previous vid, and change finger pressure or grip pressure or switch from three under to split or even just change to a different tab or glove and get very different results. You ever wonder why guys will switch something that seems very small and have a very off day of shooting? 

Even when you tune for great arrow flight you still have to make sure it hits where you're aiming, whether instinctive or gap or whatever. Here's an example. In the vid I posted I shot my Classic through the paper with a 30" Victory arrow (.500 spine) and 145 gr. tips. With that combo I got a clean bullet hole. However, at the range I find that setup to be on the edge of being stiff. As I back up to 30-40 yards the arrows definitely have tendency to group to the left. They fly great but don't group down my line of sight without some correction. I can shoot 200 gr. points and they fly without and kick or wiggle but they group just to the right. Optimally, I'll need to shoot 160-175 grs. up front to keep the arrows going straight down the center line. Through paper they won't be perfect tears any longer but I also won't have to deal with lateral deviation which is more important than a hole in paper at 3ft.


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## rhust (Oct 8, 2002)

I have used all the different methods of tuning over the years, and they all work. There are a lot of variables when it comes to tuning. I agree that if you are shooting bullet holes in paper, your bow is tuned. The things you have to take into account are all the variables. The reason most can get weaker shafts to fly out of their bows, is because most recurve/longbow shooters I have met think their draw length is a lot longer than it really is. I have heard a lot of guys say they have a 30 inch draw. Their arrows are cut to 30 inches, and they have 3 inches hanging over when they shoot. For me this explains why they get good flight from the weaker shafts. I am not saying this is alway true, just what I have observed over the years.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rhust said:


> There are a lot of variables when it comes to tuning. I agree that if you are shooting bullet holes in paper, your bow is tuned. The things you have to take into account are all the variables. The reason most can get weaker shafts to fly out of their bows, is because most recurve/longbow shooters I have met think their draw length is a lot longer than it really is. I have heard a lot of guys say they have a 30 inch draw. Their arrows are cut to 30 inches, and they have 3 inches hanging over when they shoot. For me this explains why they get good flight from the weaker shafts. I am not saying this is alway true, just what I have observed over the years.


Those are some definitely good and valid observations :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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