# Can't believe Hoyt's response



## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

So I ordered a silver Hoyt Invicta 37 with DCX 75% let off cam. Bow was delivered in about 5 weeks. Went to store on a Friday afternoon to pick the bow up. Dealer took bow out of box measured specs and then put a hamskea rest and d-loop so i could shoot it. Store does not have a range so shooting into a bag is all that is available.

Before I shot the bow I examined it carefully. This bow is well built and looks rock solid. I am very impressed with the quality. The bow was set at 60.6lbs. It has the small cam as my draw length is 26". When I drew the bow back I noticed it was a very smooth pull but very stout. It has edgy back wall (I been shooting a higher let off bow so that may just be my perception). I shot the bow 4 times. It felt like the let off was not 75% The dealer took the bow and put it on his scale. The let off was measured between 65% - 67%. The dealer again made sure the specs were correct. 

The CAM is supposed to be 75%. The dealer called Hoyt and told them what the let off was on the bow. Hoyt said it was possible the wrong module was on the bow so take a picture of cams and send to them.

After Hoyt received the pictures it was verified the right module was on the cam. The dealer told Hoyt that I was not happy with the let off. Hoyt transferred the dealer to customer service who proceeded to tell the dealer there was nothing wrong with the bow and the let off is what it is. The dealer told Hoyt that the bow was brand new and that it should perform as advertised and that I would not have purchased a bow that cost a small fortune if I had known the let off would be significantly less than 75%.

The Dealer ask Hoyt if the bow could be returned and that I was willing to pay a restocking fee. NOW THIS IS WHERE I CAN"T BELIEVE HOYT'S RESPONSE, Hoyt said since the dealer put a rest on the bow and the bow was shot in the store it was now a used bow and they could not take it back. This bow has never left the store, was shot 4-5 times and once the rest was removed looks just like it did when it came out of the box. *How can this be considered a used bow?* 

I understand let off will vary but 10% is way too much. Since I wasn't able to shoot the bow before I ordered it I believe I should be able to return it since it does perform as advertised. I would not have ordered this bow if I had known before hand that the let off in the small cam would not be close to 75%. Hoyt falsely advertised the specifications for this bow (at least in my cam size)

I will probably put the bow up for sale but right now its still at the dealer who is going to make another attempt to see if Hoyt will take the bow back. Very disappointed with Hoyt.


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## hildyarcher92 (Aug 27, 2017)

Did the dealer check timing on the bow? I have had hybrid cam bow where the timing was out even though axle to axle and brace height were in spec. In these instances, if the bottom cam was making contact first, let off percentage and valley suffered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mjduct (Aug 16, 2013)

ding ding ding...

put it on a draw board and check make sure the cams are hitting at the itdentical moment in the draw... even 1/8" difference will make huge impacts on the let off %%%


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## Deerhunter#1 (Dec 10, 2016)

Customer service by bow companies is horrific. It should I say from the big guys. Hoyt and pse specifically. To them you are just a number. Who cares if your unhappy. They will sell 5 less expensive bows from box stores to make up for your anger. I'm convinced this is there thought process. The people buying those bows never complain as they dont for the most part know better. Not slamming them in any way but most buying them are not intrested in extensive shooting but pick it up for hunting season and that's it. 
Yet buying a flagship bow we feel we pay a premieum and it should perform as specified. Not the case sometimes. I can honestly say they are to big for themselves and care less about customers being happy. I have 1st hand experience with it so not just speaking off key. 
Yet I have had great cs from the small to mid size companies. It still matters to them what every customer needs. And they ng eed every customer to be happy. I'm going to concentrate my purchases to where my experience counts to the company I'm dealing with. Hoyt, pse, mathews will never see a penny of mine for a new bow.


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## TexasCanesFan (Jun 23, 2005)

This sure sounds like a terrible dealer story. Measuring specs means almost nothing within reason. 

I’m sure a few twists here or there would have the bow exactly where you want it in a matter of minutes. The dealer should have been on the draw board and press instead of the phone.


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## bucco921 (Jan 2, 2012)

As others have said, I'd be willing to bet this could easily be fixed. Also, did you actually hear Hoyt say this yourself? 

I'm not a Hoyt fanboy, don't own one, but highly doubt that was really their response.


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## golfernash (Feb 6, 2007)

TexasCanesFan said:


> This sure sounds like a terrible dealer story. Measuring specs means almost nothing within reason.
> 
> I’m sure a few twists here or there would have the bow exactly where you want it in a matter of minutes. The dealer should have been on the draw board and press instead of the phone.


This x100


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## Deerhunter#1 (Dec 10, 2016)

Agreed dealer may have been able to do more. But he called and shoukd have received that help from cs while on the phone. Manufactures are pushing to make bows more user friendly and less need for shops. So with this lack of support this will only get worse. Have a local shop used to have knowledgable techs. I wouldn't bring them a bow now for anything. I did what the manufactures are pushing and invested in everything needed to service my own bows. I wonder if a smaller manufacture may have walked the dealer through fixing the issue. I dont know for sure but I bet there is a better chance of it.


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## Bearpawx4 (Apr 20, 2013)

Deerhunter#1 said:


> Customer service by bow companies is horrific. It should I say from the big guys. Hoyt and pse specifically. To them you are just a number. Who cares if your unhappy. They will sell 5 less expensive bows from box stores to make up for your anger. I'm convinced this is there thought process. The people buying those bows never complain as they dont for the most part know better. Not slamming them in any way but most buying them are not intrested in extensive shooting but pick it up for hunting season and that's it.
> Yet buying a flagship bow we feel we pay a premieum and it should perform as specified. Not the case sometimes. I can honestly say they are to big for themselves and care less about customers being happy. I have 1st hand experience with it so not just speaking off key.
> Yet I have had great cs from the small to mid size companies. It still matters to them what every customer needs. And they ng eed every customer to be happy. I'm going to concentrate my purchases to where my experience counts to the company I'm dealing with. Hoyt, pse, mathews will never see a penny of mine for a new bow.


Never once had an issue with PSE customer service, just saying...
As for OP, yes I agree with what others said about putting this hoyt on a draw board to verify cam timing etc.


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## Deerhunter#1 (Dec 10, 2016)

Sent a bow back to pse after issues and fighting with 2 different Cs people as they wanted me to pay shipping. It was a brand new bow and had no confidence in the dealer I discussed above serivecing it. They finally agreed to pay shipping. I got the bow back and there way of fixing the issue was they measured the bows specs. Dudnt shoot it or anything. And sent it back saying biw is good it's in spec. Pathetic. Now thats my experience and I understand others may have had better results.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

What's odd is that the same bow, delivered as part of dealer stock, could have a WB installed, be shot by a dozen different potential buyers, have several adjustments performed, then sold as new with warranty and everything... 

Agree with others though, could be as simple as a couple thread adjustments to get the let off desired. 

Interesting the shop hadto send a pic of the cams to Hoyt to have the correct mods confirmed- would have guessed the dealer would recognize whether they were correct or not...


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Just a guess. Manufactures don't test each module and cam combination for percent letoff. They probably take and average all the spec's and come up with a number.

Also a module for a shorter draw length can be used on some bows and then the limb stops can be used to set the letoff. I wouldn't give up on the bow yet. There are probably some timing adjustments and such that can be made to get the letoff that you want.

A few years back there was a thread on here where a hoyt riser was drilled off center and hoyt would not replace the riser.


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

TexasCanesFan said:


> This sure sounds like a terrible dealer story. Measuring specs means almost nothing within reason.
> 
> I’m sure a few twists here or there would have the bow exactly where you want it in a matter of minutes. The dealer should have been on the draw board and press instead of the phone.


Bingo. 

Make sure the cams are synced. 

Then, if you find out they are, put a few twists in the cables to up your let off. OR move the cable stops to the next position. 

Personally I wouldn't give up on the bow so easily....


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## trial153 (Nov 27, 2011)

Why not make couple adjustments and get a little more let off? I am not seeing an issue


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## Centerpoint (Sep 27, 2018)

bowhuntermitch said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Make sure the cams are synced.
> 
> ...


If it’s 60# limbs and it’s measuring 60# and draw length is correct, let off is not going to off by 10#. They put wrong mods on it. If it’s 67% with correct specs it’s a 65% mod. To the OP. Make them fix it and put 75% on it as ordered and don’t waste time twisting cables. That’s not the problem. But that sounds like Hoyt. I used to shot Hoyt and had so many issues with CS I went to Elite.


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

Centerpoint said:


> If it’s 60# limbs and it’s measuring 60# and draw length is correct, let off is not going to off by 10#. They put wrong mods on it. If it’s 67% with correct specs it’s a 65% mod. To the OP. Make them fix it and put 75% on it as ordered and don’t waste time twisting cables. That’s not the problem. But that sounds like Hoyt. I used to shot Hoyt and had so many issues with CS I went to Elite.


According to the OP Hoyt said the mods were correct for 75% let off. 

But I agree with you. If indeed the wrong mods are installed, the obvious answer would bet to put he correct ones in.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

I have no idea how Hoyt bows tune as I have no interest in them whatsoever. However I have shot and owned a number of different brands and models and agree that some slight tweeking could improve your letoff and valley. Case in point, I bought a used Xpedition Perfexion late this summer and have been playing with it on and off....mostly off due to hunting season. I downloaded the manual pages from their website and printed them off to verify that the bow was in specs and ready to tune after Mike at Catfish Customs built me a fresh set of strings and swapped cams for me. It was very close and only took minor adjustments to get a bare shaft to hit perfectly. However the draw was stiff and the valley was touchy. I weighed it on my AMS scale and adjusted the weight to 60.6 and then played a bit with the draw stop pegs. I'm just a tad outside their recommendations for a 29" draw, but it smoothed out the valley a whole bunch with like a 16th of an inch adjustment. 

Your dealer is either lacking knowledge or is not stepping up to really help you out. This is precisely why so many on AT have purchased used bows and invested their savings difference in tuning gear like a bow press, scale, bow vice, etc. I can do all this in my basement "man cave" now and it is priceless. No packing up for a trip to the dealer in hopes they can make it better rather than worse.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Deerhunter#1 said:


> Customer service by bow companies is horrific. It should I say from the big guys. Hoyt and *pse specifically.* To them you are just a number. Who cares if your unhappy. They will sell 5 less expensive bows from box stores to make up for your anger. I'm convinced this is there thought process. The people buying those bows never complain as they dont for the most part know better. Not slamming them in any way but most buying them are not intrested in extensive shooting but pick it up for hunting season and that's it.
> Yet buying a flagship bow we feel we pay a premieum and it should perform as specified. Not the case sometimes. I can honestly say they are to big for themselves and care less about customers being happy. I have 1st hand experience with it so not just speaking off key.
> Yet I have had great cs from the small to mid size companies. It still matters to them what every customer needs. And they ng eed every customer to be happy. I'm going to concentrate my purchases to where my experience counts to the company I'm dealing with. Hoyt, pse, mathews will never see a penny of mine for a new bow.


I'm surprised to hear this about PSE.... I've had nothing but good things to say about them!!!!


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Tallybowman said:


> ... NOW THIS IS WHERE I CAN"T BELIEVE HOYT'S RESPONSE, Hoyt said since the dealer put a rest on the bow and the bow was shot in the store it was now a used bow and they could not take it back. This bow has never left the store, was shot 4-5 times and once the rest was removed looks just like it did when it came out of the box. *How can this be considered a used bow?*


Because it was setup and shot. You only need to put one arrow through it to turn it into a used bow. That's the general rule of thumb that you should always follow with a NIB bow. As soon as that first shaft is in the bale, it's a "preowned" bow, and now worth 50% of it's new price at a bare minimum. If you can get 65% of new price for it, you're doing good, 75% or more, well... good luck with that.

Sad but true. But if it makes you feel any better, not just Hoyt, but all manufacturers treat it that way and they always have - they're not singling you out at all. But you have to keep in mind that once that first arrow has gone through it, neither Hoyt nor the shop can ethically sell it as a NIB bow. They either have to lie and try to hide the fact that it was actually shot, etc., or they have to put it on the used rack and sell it at a used price at a significant loss.

So what's going on there is the shop may have the resources to swallow the loss in value off a brand new $1800 bow or they may not. A big shop in good financial shape may be able to do that, but a smaller brick-and-mortar shop might not be able to stay in business doing that.

As for Hoyt, like I said, they've always treated shot bows that way and they probably always will. Other manufacturers may or may not, but if they do that's the reason why.

So let that be a lesson to you . Do NOT do anything to that bow other than pull it out of the box if you have even the SLIGHTEST doubt about something on it. Don't even take the tag off the thing until you're SURE it's what you want. Putting it on a scale to check the letoff won't turn it into a used bow, nor will checking the letoff through the entire DL adjustment range (letoff typically goes down at shorter drawlength settings on many bows, which may be the issue with yours). But putting a rest and d-loop on it and shooting a shaft out if it definitely WILL turn it into a used bow. 

IF you shoot it, treat that as having accepted the bow, unless there's an obvious defect, etc.

I know, I hate this too, but that's just how it goes....

lee.


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## Aliveandfree (Mar 28, 2019)

It is sad. Customer service is not what it used to be and that is why it is very important to only buy products from companies that have good customer service


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

Surely the experts on archerytalk can tell this guy how to twist his cables to raise his letoff....


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Centerpoint said:


> If it’s 60# limbs and it’s measuring 60# and draw length is correct, let off is not going to off by 10#. They put wrong mods on it. If it’s 67% with correct specs it’s a 65% mod. To the OP. Make them fix it and put 75% on it as ordered and don’t waste time twisting cables. That’s not the problem. But that sounds like Hoyt. I used to shot Hoyt and had so many issues with CS I went to Elite.


It's not totally outlandish for letoff to go down that far at shorter drawlength settings, especially near or at the shortest settings. Usually, letoff specs are "maximums", typically found at the longest drawlength setting. Similarly for brace height, which is usually "specified" at full poundage. This is how they can market low brace heights and high letoffs, even though both are usually higher or lower, respectively, once you set the bow up for you the way you want it. 

My old PSE's, a Shootdown and two supra max's (may they R.I.P.) had lower letoffs at my approx. 28.5" draw length than the rated 75%. Not by much, but at those settings and with my own strings, they weren't 75%. Really, closer to 70% and maybe even a little less. Same with the brace heights which were significantly higher than rated, as I shot them with the limb bolts all the way out for most of the time I had them.

So as I said earlier, be sure to check the letoff at all the DL settings. You'll typically find it close to the rated letoff only at the max DL. Check it at the DL you intend to shoot it at and if it's shorter than max, don't be alarmed if it's lower.....

If and only if after checking all that, then go back to the shop/manufacturer and dig a little further if it's just way off, etc....

lee.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> Surely the experts on archerytalk can tell this guy how to twist his cables to raise his letoff....


Just as his HOYT dealer should have been able to take care of.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

lees said:


> Because it was setup and shot. You only need to put one arrow through it to turn it into a used bow. That's the general rule of thumb that you should always follow with a NIB bow. As soon as that first shaft is in the bale, it's a "preowned" bow, and now worth 50% of it's new price at a bare minimum. If you can get 65% of new price for it, you're doing good, 75% or more, well... good luck with that.
> 
> Sad but true. But if it makes you feel any better, not just Hoyt, but all manufacturers treat it that way and they always have - they're not singling you out at all. But you have to keep in mind that once that first arrow has gone through it, neither Hoyt nor the shop can ethically sell it as a NIB bow. They either have to lie and try to hide the fact that it was actually shot, etc., or they have to put it on the used rack and sell it at a used price at a significant loss.
> 
> ...


 I know most people shoot several bows before they buy. Does that make every bow that they did not buy used?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Tallybowman said:


> I know most people shoot several bows before they buy. Does that make every bow that they did not buy used?


Absolutely. Like I said, that's why some shops are more reticent than others to let you shoot them without a commitment of some sort to buy it afterwards. It just depends on the shop - if they're in good financial shape and can swallow the loss of letting random customers turn all their NIB inventory into used bows, they'll tend to let you shoot them. if not, they generally won't. 

Same thing for other accessories like release aids, etc. But with bows, your dealers are going to be particularly sensitive to this. So, it's really best to be thoughtful on this issue. Don't go in there every day and shoot all their bows and then just leave without giving them a cent and arguing about the range fees and etc  I've seen it happen and so have they . They may ask you not to come back if you do that a lot . Anyway, you get the idea.. Don't abuse your shops and dealers; that's part of why they're disappearing....

lee.


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## 48archer (Mar 19, 2009)

Are you sure the dealers scales are correct, unless you backed the limb bolts out some I find it hard to believe a new bow came in untouched at 60.6 lbs, usually they are higher than that.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

TexasCanesFan said:


> This sure sounds like a terrible dealer story. Measuring specs means almost nothing within reason.
> 
> I’m sure a few twists here or there would have the bow exactly where you want it in a matter of minutes. The dealer should have been on the draw board and press instead of the phone.


The second time the dealer verified the specification on the bow, he did put the bow on his last chance draw board to make sure timing was set correctly and that the draw length was correct. He found no issues with timing or draw length. He told me that 10% difference in let off was extreme and it would be highly unlikely to get a 10% adjustment if the modules were correct. The modules have HL on them which he thought indicated high let off but since this was the first Invicta he has personally seen he called Hoyt to verify. He is very good and has always provided outstanding service. He did not find any reason for the bow to have such a difference in let off. I'm sure the dealer will keep the bow if I ask him to but I came to him and to order this bow based solely on the literature Hoyt is distributing.
It's not his fault the bow does not perform as advertised.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

48archer said:


> Are you sure the dealers scales are correct, unless you backed the limb bolts out some I find it hard to believe a new bow came in untouched at 60.6 lbs, usually they are higher than that.


Whether it was 60.6 or 63# the holding weight to peak weight would be the same.....It is a ratio.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

48archer said:


> Are you sure the dealers scales are correct, unless you backed the limb bolts out some I find it hard to believe a new bow came in untouched at 60.6 lbs, usually they are higher than that.


It's possible his scales are off but when I shot the bow I could tell the let off was substantially less than my current bow. I'v been shooting an 2011 alpha elite with fuel cams. If you've ever shot fuel cams you know they have an aggressive feel. His scales measure the let off on that bow at approximately 73% - 75% at about 59 lbs with a 26" module installed.


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## sneak1413 (Aug 15, 2007)

Tallybowman said:


> So I ordered a silver Hoyt Invicta 37 with DCX 75% let off cam. Bow was delivered in about 5 weeks. Went to store on a Friday afternoon to pick the bow up. Dealer took bow out of box measured specs and then put a hamskea rest and d-loop so i could shoot it. Store does not have a range so shooting into a bag is all that is available.
> 
> Before I shot the bow I examined it carefully. This bow is well built and looks rock solid. I am very impressed with the quality. The bow was set at 60.6lbs. It has the small cam as my draw length is 26". When I drew the bow back I noticed it was a very smooth pull but very stout. It has edgy back wall (I been shooting a higher let off bow so that may just be my perception). I shot the bow 4 times. It felt like the let off was not 75% The dealer took the bow and put it on his scale. The let off was measured between 65% - 67%. The dealer again made sure the specs were correct.
> 
> ...


I have not shot the new hoyt cams but I know in the past a small amount of timing can change the holding weight pretty substantially on especially the spiral cam. To get the most letoff you need to have the cams timed exactly the same. Double check that the mods where set at the same draw length as well. If one was set at 26" and the other at 26.5" that will make a huge difference as well. Also double check that the draw stop is in the right position(I think those cams have a draw stop).


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## TexasCanesFan (Jun 23, 2005)

Tallybowman said:


> The second time the dealer verified the specification on the bow, he did put the bow on his last chance draw board to make sure timing was set correctly and that the draw length was correct. He found no issues with timing or draw length. He told me that 10% difference in let off was extreme and it would be highly unlikely to get a 10% adjustment if the modules were correct. The modules have HL on them which he thought indicated high let off but since this was the first Invicta he has personally seen he called Hoyt to verify. He is very good and has always provided outstanding service. He did not find any reason for the bow to have such a difference in let off. I'm sure the dealer will keep the bow if I ask him to but I came to him and to order this bow based solely on the literature Hoyt is distributing.
> It's not his fault the bow does not perform as advertised.


So he didn’t tweak the bow at all to try and get the holding weight where you wanted it?? Just measured it, checked the timing and called Hoyt?

Putting some twists and tweaking the harness would seem very basic for almost any shop. Trying to return the bow instead of doing that makes no sense to me, especially on a model the dealer has never seen before.


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## soldierarcher (Feb 17, 2015)

Wow! Sorry to the OP. Ok AT'er's. Since I've never bought a target bow new, just how does a consumer do so and ensure he get's what he thinks he's getting? Damn!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

First of all bows don't come out of the box tuned at all, they make the strings and put them on the bow and that is it. It is your job to tune the bow. 

The thing I know about hybrid cams on hoyts is that they are highly tunable and you can change the holding weight a lot on them by knowing how to twist on the cables. Now if your dealer had actually synced the cams and then did those twists to the cables like he would normally to set the holding weight and the bow did not respond that is a bad thing. But I am getting the feeling he doesn't know how to do this type stuff.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

soldierarcher said:


> Wow! Sorry to the OP. Ok AT'er's. Since I've never bought a target bow new, just how does a consumer do so and ensure he get's what he thinks he's getting? Damn!


With the door open to fudge on other specs of a bow, I figure letoff % would be fair game too.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Tallybowman said:


> So I ordered a silver Hoyt Invicta 37 with DCX 75% let off cam. Bow was delivered in about 5 weeks. Went to store on a Friday afternoon to pick the bow up. Dealer took bow out of box measured specs and then put a hamskea rest and d-loop so i could shoot it. Store does not have a range so shooting into a bag is all that is available.
> 
> Before I shot the bow I examined it carefully. This bow is well built and looks rock solid. I am very impressed with the quality. The bow was set at 60.6lbs. It has the small cam as my draw length is 26". When I drew the bow back I noticed it was a very smooth pull but very stout. It has edgy back wall (I been shooting a higher let off bow so that may just be my perception). I shot the bow 4 times. It felt like the let off was not 75% The dealer took the bow and put it on his scale. The let off was measured between 65% - 67%. The dealer again made sure the specs were correct.
> 
> ...


VERY DIS-APPOINTED in your dealer ("pro" shop), who has no clue how to tune a hybrid cam bow.
So, let's say you have a 60lb draw weight bow.
Let's say your "pro" measured 62 lbs of draw weight.
So....the 75% letoff SHOULD get you 25% holding weight, and that means the scale SHOULD read 25% of 62 lbs = 15.5 lbs. Don't matter what the SCALE reads, you want more valley (less holding weight).
So....the "75%" letoff module, per your "PRO"...says the scale reads 67% letoff. Ok. That means the "PRO" says the scale is saying you are at a 33% Holding Weight = 20.46 lbs.

Regardless if the scale is CORRECT or reading HIGH or reading LOW...Bottom Line. You want 5 lbs LESS holding weight.
So, any REAL "PRO"...would know how to get you 5 lbs LESS HOLDING weight.

Simple. Just ADD a twist to the buss cable. The draw weight will go UP, and the holding weight will go DOWN. You have MORE valley. Will you get 5 lbs LESS holding weight, with one twist in the BUSS cable?
Nope.
So, let's DOUBLE the adjustment. Go back to the press and add TWO more twists to the BUSS cable. Draw weight will go up some MORE. Holding weight will go DOWN some MORE.
Did you get a total of 5 lbs LESS holding weight? Nope, but you SURE are a lot closer.
So, let's DOUBLE the adjustment, the PRIO adjustment. Go back to the bow press and add FOUR more twists to the BUSS cable. Draw weight is DEFINITELY higher. Holding weight will DEFINITELY lower.
YOu have LOTS more valley, maybe TOO MUCH valley. What's a "PRO" supposed to do, if you now have TOO much valley?

Go back to the bow press. Have your "PRO" REMOVE 1 twist from the buss cable. Maybe your "PRO" can REMOVE 1/2 twist from the buss cable. See how this works? This is how a REAL PRO (yourself)
can tune your valley to EXACTLY what FEELS good to you. After you FINE tune the buss cable twists, by the HALF twist, each time you goto the bow press, you can get your VALLEY feeling EXACTLY how you want. Ummmmm...maybe you should find a more EXPERIENCED "PRO" shop....to help you change the twists in the buss cable.

So, you dialed in the VALLEY to exactly what you LIKE...FEEL wise. But, your target bareshafts (always use a bareshaft) are DIVING LOW, or CLIMBING HIGH. Is my brand new "used" bow BROKE?
Clearly not. You might have noticed that your fancy schmancy bow has TWO cables. The OTHER cable...also needs some half twists added, to get to LEVEL nock travel.
What the heck is LEVEL nock travel? I paid all these $$$$$ to the "PRO" and the bow don't come with LEVEL nock travel straight out of the box?
Nope. Your "PRO" had to ADD twists to the buss cable, to get the VALLEY to FEEL like you want. 
So, now your "PRO" has to add enough half twists to the CONTROL cable to get back to LEVEL nock travel. So, keep going to the bow press and adding a full twist, or a half twist to the CONTROL cable,
until you get back to LEVEL nock travel.

You mean I gots to TWIST this and that to a bow? Sigh. Nobody told me this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Padgett said:


> First of all bows don't come out of the box tuned at all, they make the strings and put them on the bow and that is it. It is your job to tune the bow.
> 
> The thing I know about hybrid cams on hoyts is that they are highly tunable and you can change the holding weight a lot on them by knowing how to twist on the cables. Now if your dealer had actually synced the cams and then did those twists to the cables like he would normally to set the holding weight and the bow did not respond that is a bad thing. But I am getting the feeling he doesn't know how to do this type stuff.


Wait just ONE sec...there Padgett. You mean I cant benchrest my new Invicta straight outta the box? Ya mean, a "PRO" shop is supposed to TUNE a bow for ya?
I heard on AT that a bow is TUNED or it's NOT TUNED.....lol.
The fix is REALLY simple. For a "PRO" that knows how to tune.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Final step after you tweak the buss cable (add twists) and after you tweak the control cable (add some twists...less than what you added to the buss cable).
Final step, cuz to get MORE valley, you will have HIGHER draw weight....use the limb bolts to knock down the draw weight to what you can handle.
BUT...I heard that you have to shoot the Invicta with the limb bolts MAXED OUT. Nope, you don't.
Your bow ain't BroKE. You just have a "PRO" compound bow seller, who has zero idea how to tune....or has ZERO interest in after sales service (tune your bow).


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

5MilesBack said:


> Just as his HOYT dealer should have been able to take care of.


Are you kidding me, Hoyt was letting some Big Box stores carry their bows....

It is getting really scary for those who do not know how to fine tune their own gear.


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..I can say that I sure learned something new today!!!!!!!!!!!Thanks N&B


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

Padgett said:


> First of all bows don't come out of the box tuned at all, they make the strings and put them on the bow and that is it. It is your job to tune the bow.
> 
> The thing I know about hybrid cams on hoyts is that they are highly tunable and you can change the holding weight a lot on them by knowing how to twist on the cables. Now if your dealer had actually synced the cams and then did those twists to the cables like he would normally to set the holding weight and the bow did not respond that is a bad thing. But I am getting the feeling he doesn't know how to do this type stuff.


I assure you he knows his stuff. Why does everyone assume its the dealers lack of knowledge. He's sold Hoyt's for years and tunes bows every day. When he says 10% is a large amount to adjust I believe him. But everyone seems to keep missing the point of this thread and the point is h*ow can Hoyt call this a used bow?* If that is really true then almost all shops are selling used Hoyt bows or they are not letting anyone actually shoot before they buy.


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## Paul Payne (Apr 1, 2007)

I just got a new pse supra focus xl and when I took it out of the box there was a tag on the bow that said the let off was 70%...the bow had 75% mods on it and when I put the bow on a scale I measured the actual let off at 63 % .. the bow was set at 27 inch dl...when I changed the dl to 28 inches.[that fit me better anyway] the let off jumped up 5% to 68%...I called pse and they said after I told them the tag on the bow said 70% that the bow was 75% letoff..what they fail to tell the consumer is that most let offs are measured by amo standards at 29 inches..the letoff drops lower the shorter the draw length on bows with cams that are adjustable for draw length..I then ordered high letoff cams that are supposed to be 85%..after I installed the high letoff cams I finally ended up with 78% letoff and alot more valley..I've been shooting for 50+ years and I feel this bow is the best bow I've ever had...if you can order high letoff cams for you hoyt do so..you won't be disappointed.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Most tuners know that letoff changes in each DL slot. Impossible for the engineers to design a cam that has the same letoff at each inch of draw length....It's the reason some bows feel jumpy at say 28", and then you move it to 29" and it feels like a completely different bow. 

I haven't shot Hoyt hybrid cams in a few years but I did for a decade. Most people I knew that shot them know they felt completely different in the A slot than they did in the D or E slot.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> VERY DIS-APPOINTED in your dealer ("pro" shop), who has no clue how to tune a hybrid cam bow.
> So, let's say you have a 60lb draw weight bow.
> Let's say your "pro" measured 62 lbs of draw weight.
> So....the 75% letoff SHOULD get you 25% holding weight, and that means the scale SHOULD read 25% of 62 lbs = 15.5 lbs. Don't matter what the SCALE reads, you want more valley (less holding weight).
> ...


So why are you giving Hoyt a pass. Every time you twist the buss cable and then the control cable you change the specs of the bow, right? Axle to Axle or brace height or knocking point, etc. Specifications are there for a reason. I'm not saying you can't get the let off to increase but I am saying you should not have to make large adjustments. If the bow does not perform as advertised and its never left the shop, Hoyt should allow me to pay a restocking fee and return it. It looks no different after the rest was removed than it did before the rest was put on. I started this thread because I was shocked at Hoyt's response. I appreciate the instructions on changing let off but I'm very confident my dealer can get everything out the bow that's possible. I just think he should not have to manipulate and change the specifications significantly to do so.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Tallybowman said:


> So why are you giving Hoyt a pass. Every time you twist the buss cable and then the control cable you change the specs of the bow, right? Axle to Axle or brace height or knocking point, etc. Specifications are there for a reason. I'm not saying you can't get the let off to increase but I am saying you should not have to make large adjustments. If the bow does not perform as advertised and its never left the shop, Hoyt should allow me to pay a restocking fee and return it. It looks no different after the rest was removed than it did before the rest was put on. I started this thread because I was shocked at Hoyt's response. I appreciate the instructions on changing let off but I'm very confident my dealer can get everything out the bow that's possible. I just think he should not have to manipulate and change the specifications significantly to do so.


Specs are to GUIDE you and the pro shop, for a REASONABLE starting point. Did you calibrate the shop scale with 5 gallons of water? A gallon of water is 8.34 lbs.
So, 5 gallon bucket SHOULD weigh 41.7 lbs...about 42 lbs. The ONLY thing we know is that you FELT the valley was too short, the holding weight was too much for you.
What we DON'T know if how much the holding weight was off, cuz you didn't calibrate the scale.

SIGNIFICANT change in ATA? YOu have no idea. Put 3 twists in the buss cable, and maybe 1.5 twists (added) in the control cable. The valley will be NOTICEABLY longer.
Sigh. If you have no idea about tuning...if the Pro Shop has NO interest to add 3 twists to the buss cable, and 1.5 twists in the control cable...are you SURE you want to shoot compound bows?
Go back to the shop, and have these MINIMAL changes to the twists in the buss cable and control cable, adjusted, and then, get back to us about the FEEL of the NEW longer valley.

Tuning the twists in the cables is kindergarten level tuning.


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## Larry brown (Aug 17, 2013)

If you have a bow press and a draw board you can tune the bow to your specs. If the dealer had to order the Target bow he prob doesn’t carry target bows or doesn’t do many. 80% let off hunting bows work the same but you wouldn’t feel the difference as much as you would 65-75% let off. 

To your point about a used bow, would you wanna spend 1800 on a bow that joe bob had shot and sent back? 
This is why I will not buy one sight unseen and not shoot it first(at a dealer who carries the one I want or someone with similar specs as me)
Hoyt did what most every manufacturer would do so can’t fault them. May make you mad but they prob make a buncha people mad. 
I would “tune” the bow to you and shoot lights out with it. Specs they listed are a starting point, I am usually close but never right on with any bow I shoot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Tallybowman said:


> So why are you giving Hoyt a pass. Every time you twist the buss cable and then the control cable you change the specs of the bow, right? Axle to Axle or brace height or knocking point, etc. Specifications are there for a reason. I'm not saying you can't get the let off to increase but I am saying you should not have to make large adjustments. If the bow does not perform as advertised and its never left the shop, Hoyt should allow me to pay a restocking fee and return it. It looks no different after the rest was removed than it did before the rest was put on. I started this thread because I was shocked at Hoyt's response. I appreciate the instructions on changing let off but I'm very confident my dealer can get everything out the bow that's possible. I just think he should not have to manipulate and change the specifications significantly to do so.


I am NOT giving a pass to the scale readings at the Pro Shop, until you weigh a 5 gallon bucket of water.
What is NOT important is the scale reading.
What IS important, is that you want more valley (lower holding weight). If you need to drop the holding weight 2 lbs, or 3 lbs, or as much as 5 lbs....a few twists in the two cables, will give you as MUCH valley as you want.

Once you FIRE an arrow, the bow is USED.

What is shocking is YOUR response...and the description of what the "PRO" shop did. You can measure a bow draw weight and HOLDING weight on the draw board, without firing an arrow.
You can calibrate the scale with a 5 gallon bucket, to confirm that the scale is reading CORRECTLY.
After you confirm that the scale is reading correctly, or AFTER you figure out how much the scale is reading HIGH or reading LOW...then, you can ACCURATELY measure the draw weight and holding weight.
75% cams, delivering 65% letoff is EXTREMELY unlikely...if the cables are labeled correctly.

MORE likely, the draw stops are installed in the wrong hole (mis-matched draw stop position versus size of DL module). Check this before you do any more damage to yourself....as was previously mentioned.
If you have a particular length draw length module, and the draw stop is installed in the draw stop hole for the NEXT shorter DL position, the cam will UNDER-rotate and you lose valley (HIGHER holding weight).
*This is a VERY likely scenario. *


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## cheapbear (Oct 27, 2015)

Is everyone saying that if i buy a new bow, i have to bring it home, twist cables, sync cams, set ata, and draw weight??? Dang it bobby, and just think about the $1200 you just spent, and then have to come home, and work on the bow. Kinda like buying a brand new car, and having to take it from the dealer to the shop to get it aligned because it dont drive straight. Just my 2 cents 
I know you have to do "some" tuning, but i dont feel like i should have to do ALL thats said in this post on a NEW bow.


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..Then a thought comes to mind..So you have your brand new bow..You've done all the tweaking in the cables that was required to get to where you wanted to be..The cables are brand new then they stretch..Ouchy..you are right back in the same place where you started...


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

As others have said the problem is your pro shop and the fact that he has you believing that he knows what he's doing!! There is nothing wrong with that bow!! The ATA and BH are references that are not set in stone. The bow needs tuning and set up for YOU! N&B has explained it so maybe you should show this thread to your pro so he can learn something!

NC

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Nope, you do not have to do all that stuff when you buy a new bow. I got my first awesome bow in 2007 a bowtech guardian and I shot it for two years with the same bow string and never put a twist into it. I did check the poundage a few times with a scale but that was it. Yeah, I actually won my first few tournaments with it but moved onto a different bow before learning anything about tuning or setup. So to me that bow was perfect and a wonderfully tuned and set up bow when it actually was so screwed up it was pathetic.

Why do I know it was totally screwed up?

Because a another couple years later I learned all the fancy stuff such as timing and cam sync and brace height and ATA and specific draw length and during that season I snapped a limb on my target bow and I went into the garage and threw on my sight and rest to the old bowtech guardian to shoot for a couple weeks until my new limbs showed up. 

OMG, that bow the last time I shot it actually shot over 40 up and won a local tournament and had not been touched since. The cam sync was off by over a quarter inch and the brace height was over a 1/8 off and the ata was no where near correct. So I twisted the string set and tuned it really quick and for the first time ever I actually got to enjoy my guardian and it felt way better than it ever did when I was actually shooting it. 

The key here is you can be perfectly happy when you are blind to everything and have no idea that your setup sucks but if you want to be educated enough to know all the fancy terms and methods then you had better learn how to do them for yourself so that you can use them. Just knowing the terms exist isn't enough.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Chamacat said:


> Yep..Then a thought comes to mind..So you have your brand new bow..You've done all the tweaking in the cables that was required to get to where you wanted to be..The cables are brand new then they stretch..Ouchy..you are right back in the same place where you started...


Chamacat. This is why SOME of us build our own string and cables. Other folks? They BUY hand made, custom string and cables, from ANY of the custom string makers here on AT. BAM. Done.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

cheapbear said:


> Is everyone saying that if i buy a new bow, i have to bring it home, twist cables, sync cams, set ata, and draw weight??? Dang it bobby, and just think about the $1200 you just spent, and then have to come home, and work on the bow. Kinda like buying a brand new car, and having to take it from the dealer to the shop to get it aligned because it dont drive straight. Just my 2 cents
> I know you have to do "some" tuning, but i dont feel like i should have to do ALL thats said in this post on a NEW bow.


QUALITY PRO shop...a shop that actually KNOWS what they are doing, will doo all that COMPLICATED stuff for you.


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## TexasCanesFan (Jun 23, 2005)

Tallybowman said:


> I assure you he knows his stuff. Why does everyone assume its the dealers lack of knowledge. He's sold Hoyt's for years and tunes bows every day. When he says 10% is a large amount to adjust I believe him. But everyone seems to keep missing the point of this thread and the point is h*ow can Hoyt call this a used bow?* If that is really true then almost all shops are selling used Hoyt bows or they are not letting anyone actually shoot before they buy.


Hoyt will not take the bow back because there is no reason to. I am sure they understand the situation as most of us on here quickly figured out. 

The dealer should have that bow twisted up to where you want it and ready to go in under a hour and this is a non-issue.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

I only read a few posts here, but being a Hoyt shooter, target rigs for the past few years....and shooting the 75% letoff X3 cam...
Find a new shop. 

I'm actually surprised a Pro Shop, which...you have to be to sell hoyts, has nothing more than a target bag. NO range of any kind.
A couple of twists at most can get timing in spec and letoff correct.
Shame on them for putting you in the middle of this and they should have known/taken care of this themselves.

Sorry, the shop let you down with their lack of knowledge, ability and customer service.


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## onedawg69 (Sep 9, 2014)

OP, are the draw stop pegs large or are they the standard size smaller ones? Reason I ask is if they are the bigger ones that will make it have a higher holding weight and you can try the smaller ones which will bring the holding weight down a little for you. This is the way I was running my ProForce to get it to 75%


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## RTILLER (May 4, 2009)

Wow, I'm surprised at the lack of knowledge of the dealer, sounds like a kid in a big box store.


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## conservewild (Sep 24, 2019)

Not a Mathews vs Hoyt attempt but that is one of the many reasons I prefer Mathews they stand behind and IMO make a better product.


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## Ozz (Sep 19, 2017)

conservewild said:


> Not a Mathews vs Hoyt attempt but that is one of the many reasons I prefer Mathews they stand behind and IMO make a better product.


That's completely a Mathews vs Hoyt attempt or why post it? You think Mathews would take it back in the same situation? Mathews never sent me new Top Hats to even be able to tune the bows and I had to spend additional. Then I had to spend more to replace the useless grips. And buy new mods to change their half inch too long measurements.


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

conservewild said:


> Not a Mathews vs Hoyt attempt but that is one of the many reasons I prefer Mathews they stand behind and IMO make a better product.


Horse hockey!

NC

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Myco (Jul 17, 2019)

nuts&bolts;11113634.
You mean I gots to TWIST this and that to a bow? Sigh. Nobody told me this.[/QUOTE said:


> Word.


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## cheapbear (Oct 27, 2015)

I bought a new elite energy 35......it was pretty much dead on. The draw weight, ata, brace, and draw lenth.....i think what the op is saying, is that hoyt should make it good....they should twist this, and twist that to get letoff where it is advertised.


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## Ozz (Sep 19, 2017)

cheapbear said:


> I bought a new elite energy 35......it was pretty much dead on. The draw weight, ata, brace, and draw lenth.....i think what the op is saying, is that hoyt should make it good....they should twist this, and twist that to get letoff where it is advertised.


Sounds to me like he's mad Hoyt won't give him a full refund for a bow he had setup and shot then decided he didn't like. I do agree that it'd be nice if they did, but it still wouldn't change that letoff will be different at different mod settings. It would also add cost to the bow because of the increased time spent on each one at the factory, it's not a fast process to tune a bow, let alone the amount they put out.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ozz said:


> sounds to me like he's mad hoyt won't give him a full refund for a bow he had setup and shot then decided he didn't like...


bingo.


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

I'm starting to think it is buyer's remorse.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I didn't read any of the responses but letoff percentage is like IBO speed. They're always wrong and mostly they are exaggerated. If they advertise 75%, chances are when the bow is to correct specs, the percentage will be closer to 70% than 75%. Very few actually hit the letoff as advertised unless you can move the draw stop back in a slot on the cam. 

Personally, I'm not sure why anyone would want a heavy target bow with high letoff. The holding weight helps you hold the heavy bow up and stay steady at full draw. There's a reason most target shooters shoot low letoff.


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## Ak_Bowlife_Dad (Mar 25, 2019)

Check the Cam Timing!



Tallybowman said:


> So I ordered a silver Hoyt Invicta 37 with DCX 75% let off cam. Bow was delivered in about 5 weeks. Went to store on a Friday afternoon to pick the bow up. Dealer took bow out of box measured specs and then put a hamskea rest and d-loop so i could shoot it. Store does not have a range so shooting into a bag is all that is available.
> 
> Before I shot the bow I examined it carefully. This bow is well built and looks rock solid. I am very impressed with the quality. The bow was set at 60.6lbs. It has the small cam as my draw length is 26". When I drew the bow back I noticed it was a very smooth pull but very stout. It has edgy back wall (I been shooting a higher let off bow so that may just be my perception). I shot the bow 4 times. It felt like the let off was not 75% The dealer took the bow and put it on his scale. The let off was measured between 65% - 67%. The dealer again made sure the specs were correct.
> 
> ...


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## trucker3573 (Feb 14, 2010)

Yes it may be possible to tune it by twisting as many have said. The only problem is that your DL is going to go increase as well. If it out of the box is right where you like it you may have to drop to the next increment lower DL mod and twist/adjust upward. Can the bow lower DL?? I guess you could also twist the string to try to compensate for increase in DL. I have personally never had to do that so I dont know how effective it is.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Perry24 said:


> I'm starting to think it is buyer's remorse.


He fired the bow. Arrows miss bullseye. Blames the valley. "PRO" measures the valley and draw weight on the uncalibrated scale. Numbers don't sound good (holding weight too high). So, that's GOTTA be why the bow don't shoot good.
So, now wants a refund, and is absolutely ASTOUNDED that a bow needs tuning.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Invicta comes with the DCX cam or the Spiral SVX cam. The Spiral is only available in 65% letoff. The DCX cam can be 65% or 75% letoff.
NOTE. The DCX cam has an OUTER position for the draw stop (HARD wall), and has an INNER position for the draw stop (SOFT wall).
Here's a photo.



The draw stop is in the SOFT WALL position, in this photo. Try this position for the draw stop, and see if you like the FEEL now.


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## cheapbear (Oct 27, 2015)

Does bow companies not test fire their bows before sending them out the door?? Does that mean we are all buying used bows?? If companies dont test fire, maybe they should start


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

I wonder if it the first target bow OP has owned, first time I drew back spiral cams I assumed they were broke.


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## Ak_Bowlife_Dad (Mar 25, 2019)

Buy Mathews, better bows and better customer service lol, lets see how much crap I get for this post?


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

Kind of like you buy a vehicle as soon as you drive it off the lot it's used. it's just how things are. Don't give up on her do some twisting and you might get her up to 75%.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Ak_Bowlife_Dad (Mar 25, 2019)

I was thinking the same thing



RTILLER said:


> Wow, I'm surprised at the lack of knowledge of the dealer, sounds like a kid in a big box store.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

cheapbear said:


> Does bow companies not test fire their bows before sending them out the door?? Does that mean we are all buying used bows?? If companies dont test fire, maybe they should start


Does ANY manufacturing company do 100% QA/QC? Never. Costs for retail would go sky higher.
Do manufacturers test Prototypes? Absolutely. Early stage prototypes. Late Stage Prototypes. New bows are exactly that. Assembled NEW, and then, shipped. Bow manufacturers use a dealer network, called "PRO" shops to do retail sales, customer service, training of newbie shooters, and "TUNING". Some pro shops do more TUNING...and clearly THIS pro shop, does ZERO tuning.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

I appreciate the responses this thread has created. Many of you seem to think there is no issue with Hoyt's response (bow is now used due to rest put on bow and bow shot in store) and you may be right although I've never made a purchase of any value where the product was considered used having never left the store. The consensus believe the bow, if properly tuned can achieve 75% let off or close to it and that may be correct too. I'm very comfortable the dealer can tune the bow if that is really the problem. My dealer is well respected in our area and has sold Hoyt for many years. Several top shooters including at least one sponsored Hoyt shooter (currently shown on Hoyts website) have taken their bows to this guy so he definitely knows what he's doing. He could have told me there was no issues with the bow and he could tune it right up. What he did in fact tell me was *that in his opinion a new bow should not need this much adjustment. I appreciate the fact he was honest with me. He felt something was not right. Never having worked on an Invicta he wanted to make sure the bow had the correct modules so he called Hoyt. He knew any adjustments would be worthless if the bow had the wrong modules. Hoyt confirmed the modules were correct for 75% let off. He re-inspected the bow, checked the draw length and timing of the cams with a draw board and again measured the let off. At this point we stopped.

A bow that Hoyt advertises as its best target bow ever and sells for almost $2000.00 should not need major tune work right out of the box. If I had wanted a bow with 65% let off I would have ordered that. I asked the dealer to contact Hoyt and let them know I felt their literature on this bow misrepresented the truth at least in the small cam size and that I should be allowed to return the bow minus a restocking fee. I thought it would not be a problem for Hoyt. I was shocked by their response and hence this thread. Based on the majority of responses it would appear that I'm am being unreasonable to expect anything from Hoyt so I will not pursue it any further. The bow has been at the dealers all week and I ask him to let me think about what I would like to do if Hoyt did not change their stance. I will probably ask him to get as much let off out of the bow as possible and see how I like it. If it doesn't meet my expectations I will sale it on AT and someone who doesn't mind a low let off bow will get a deal. The bow is solid and except for the let off is everything I expected.

Thanks for all the responses and advice.*


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## bmook019 (Jan 31, 2017)

This is why the customer is not always right.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Re: confusion about mods. The 75% mods for the DCX cam are anodized black, the 65s grey, as they have been for some time. I would also expect they're stamped. Dealer should not have had to call anyone to be sure which mods they were.

As for "new" vs "used" yeah dealers see it all the time, and the fact the bow is/was used and Hoyt is unlikely to take it back because they can't sell it again as "new".


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## Done Right (May 13, 2012)

RTILLER said:


> Wow, I'm surprised at the lack of knowledge of the dealer, sounds like a kid in a big box store.


Couldn't agree more with this staement


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## Done Right (May 13, 2012)

conservewild said:


> Not a Mathews vs Hoyt attempt but that is one of the many reasons I prefer Mathews they stand behind and IMO make a better product.


You think Mathews would take it back in the same situation?Not


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

nestly said:


> Re: confusion about mods. The 75% mods for the DCX cam are anodized black, the 65s grey, as they have been for some time. I would also expect they're stamped. Dealer should not have had to call anyone to be sure which mods they were.
> 
> As for "new" vs "used" yeah dealers see it all the time, and the fact the bow is/was used and Hoyt is unlikely to take it back because they can't sell it again as "new".


Hoyt admitted the cams may be stamped wrong.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

TexasCanesFan said:


> Hoyt will not take the bow back because there is no reason to. I am sure they understand the situation as most of us on here quickly figured out.
> 
> The dealer should have that bow twisted up to where you want it and ready to go in under a hour and this is a non-issue.


Some of use are sure Hoyt has their heads firmly up their butts and are practicing CYA because they admitted some of their modules are stamped wrong.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

dajogejr said:


> I only read a few posts here, but being a Hoyt shooter, target rigs for the past few years....and shooting the 75% letoff X3 cam...
> Find a new shop.
> 
> I'm actually surprised a Pro Shop, which...you have to be to sell hoyts, has nothing more than a target bag. NO range of any kind.
> ...


Well, "sir", you clearly don't know what YOU are talking about, and shouldn't go around dissing your fellow shop owners. I certainly would never want someone with YOUR level of arrogance working on my bow.


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## laserbeam1001 (Jun 30, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> VERY DIS-APPOINTED in your dealer ("pro" shop), who has no clue how to tune a hybrid cam bow.
> So, let's say you have a 60lb draw weight bow.
> Let's say your "pro" measured 62 lbs of draw weight.
> So....the 75% letoff SHOULD get you 25% holding weight, and that means the scale SHOULD read 25% of 62 lbs = 15.5 lbs. Don't matter what the SCALE reads, you want more valley (less holding weight).
> ...


Thanks for the tip, don't know if the OP heeded your advice though I did. I have a bow that the let-off was not to my liking so I did what you suggested and bingo much better! [emoji106]

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

laserbeam1001 said:


> Thanks for the tip, don't know if the OP heeded your advice though I did. I have a bow that the let-off was not to my liking so I did what you suggested and bingo much better! [emoji106]
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


HIs brand new Invicta just needs a tiny bit of tuning, to get the FEEL to his liking...if he intends on shooting the Invicta.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Tallybowman said:


> I appreciate the responses this thread has created. Many of you seem to think there is no issue with Hoyt's response (bow is now used due to rest put on bow and bow shot in store) and you may be right although I've never made a purchase of any value where the product was considered used having never left the store. The consensus believe the bow, if properly tuned can achieve 75% let off or close to it and that may be correct too. I'm very comfortable the dealer can tune the bow if that is really the problem. My dealer is well respected in our area and has sold Hoyt for many years. Several top shooters including at least one sponsored Hoyt shooter (currently shown on Hoyts website) have taken their bows to this guy so he definitely knows what he's doing. He could have told me there was no issues with the bow and he could tune it right up. What he did in fact tell me was *that in his opinion a new bow should not need this much adjustment. I appreciate the fact he was honest with me. He felt something was not right. Never having worked on an Invicta he wanted to make sure the bow had the correct modules so he called Hoyt. He knew any adjustments would be worthless if the bow had the wrong modules. Hoyt confirmed the modules were correct for 75% let off. He re-inspected the bow, checked the draw length and timing of the cams with a draw board and again measured the let off. At this point we stopped.
> 
> A bow that Hoyt advertises as its best target bow ever and sells for almost $2000.00 should not need major tune work right out of the box. If I had wanted a bow with 65% let off I would have ordered that. I asked the dealer to contact Hoyt and let them know I felt their literature on this bow misrepresented the truth at least in the small cam size and that I should be allowed to return the bow minus a restocking fee. I thought it would not be a problem for Hoyt. I was shocked by their response and hence this thread. Based on the majority of responses it would appear that I'm am being unreasonable to expect anything from Hoyt so I will not pursue it any further. The bow has been at the dealers all week and I ask him to let me think about what I would like to do if Hoyt did not change their stance. I will probably ask him to get as much let off out of the bow as possible and see how I like it. If it doesn't meet my expectations I will sale it on AT and someone who doesn't mind a low let off bow will get a deal. The bow is solid and except for the let off is everything I expected.
> 
> Thanks for all the responses and advice.*


*

Your response seems to indicate this is your FIRST compound bow purchase. Seems odd your "pro" dealer did not even try to "tune" the cables to see how the letoff responds. VERY odd, for a "PRO" dealer. 2-3 twists on the buss cable is now where NEAR...a "Major" tune.*


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## bmook019 (Jan 31, 2017)

nuts&bolts said:


> Your response seems to indicate this is your FIRST compound bow purchase. Seems odd your "pro" dealer did not even try to "tune" the cables to see how the letoff responds. VERY odd, for a "PRO" dealer. 2-3 twists on the buss cable is now where NEAR...a "Major" tune.


It's also interesting to not shoot a bow more. I've never shot a bow ten times and wanted to return it. It might shoot amazing as is. It's like people that need a bow to tune a certain way before they think they can shoot it. Shoot the dang bow and you might find it shoots well.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


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## zambezi (Jul 14, 2006)

nuts&bolts said:


> Invicta comes with the DCX cam or the Spiral SVX cam. The Spiral is only available in 65% letoff. The DCX cam can be 65% or 75% letoff.
> NOTE. The DCX cam has an OUTER position for the draw stop (HARD wall), and has an INNER position for the draw stop (SOFT wall).
> Here's a photo.
> 
> ...


That is not the DCX cam.That is the SVX cam.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

zambezi said:


> That is not the DCX cam.That is the SVX cam.


K. Stand corrected. The hard versus soft draw stop feature is kinda nice for the SVX cam.


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## bmook019 (Jan 31, 2017)

nuts&bolts said:


> Nope. SVX cam does not have multiple draw stop positions.


The svx does have multiple draw stop positions. An inner and outer position. I have two bows with svx cams.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

Milo357 said:


> I find it amazing that the collection d#ldo's in a sack that completely ignored the OP's original question, but proceeded in absolute arrogance to attack the OP's Pro Shop Owner, a man of skill, knowledge, expertise, and KINDNESS, which the majority of respondents to this thread CLEARLY LACK.
> 
> Go pound sand. You are absolutely useless for anything else.


Then why don’t you order him another set of 75’s and see if it fixes the problem? Where’s your shop in Florida?


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## JPR79 (May 18, 2010)

I'm working at a second shop that has carried Hoyt and I will tell you first hand the Hoyt area rep and Hoyt dealer CS could honestly care less about the issue the op has described. They would push this back to the techs at the shop don't know how to setup the bow, and they could very well be correct.

I would have at least spent some time trying to get the cam timing/sync to line up as best as possible to produce a calculated 75% let-off. It should not be that far off unless the strings were just made sloppy at the factory, which is not unheard of.

The problem though with Hoyt as a company is they will absolutely push the blame on someone else first. They do not care about saving face at all... I guess they feel they have enough TV personalities, sponsors, and enough shooters worldwide using their equipment, that they will make sales no matter what.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

Your right, but a Hoyt rep should have coached the dealer on bow set-up specifics. I my opinion based on the OPs post, Hoyt failed both the dealer and consumer. I have a Hoyt that I really like, but definitely feel that Hoyt could have done more to appease the customer.


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## Had a Hoyt (Nov 28, 2006)

bdimaggio said:


> Your right, but a Hoyt rep should have coached the dealer on bow set-up specifics. I my opinion based on the OPs post, Hoyt failed both the dealer and consumer. I have a Hoyt that I really like, but definitely feel that Hoyt could have done more to appease the customer.


I agree with this.

Hoyt CS is pathetic. I had issues with the CD 34 #2 cam and Hoyt did not warranty the change to the 2.1 cam. Though did warranty the change for others... 

I also had a cam mod double stamped, so it would surprise me if the had the wrong cam mod.


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't get why the pro Shop Owner told Hoyt, that he installed the rest, and that you shot the Bow 4 or 5 times...Wouldn't he already know that, if you shot the bow it's considered a used bow...I think the Pro Shop kinda screwed you over..But I would take the bow to a different Pro Shop, and mess with the strings...Or you can do it, like said on here yourself....It's not that hard.


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## stampy (Jul 11, 2010)

I know having top cam ahead of bottom increases holding weight. I would have dealer watch YOU draw the bow , and come off the wall a smidge , then back to wall a few times with him watching.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Milo357 said:


> Hoyt admitted the cams may be stamped wrong.


Hoyt said that? Or that's what the shop said Hoyt said? Or is that what the OP said the shop said Hoyt said?
I'm fairly certain the mods aren't actually "stamped" as a separate process, the identification markings are likely cut into mod by the same CNC milled and shaped the mod.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Milo357 said:


> Well, "sir", you clearly don't know what YOU are talking about, and shouldn't go around dissing your fellow shop owners. I certainly would never want someone with YOUR level of arrogance working on my bow.


Yep, I'd hate to have all this arrogance fix a bow within 10 minutes...and prove this knowledgeable pro shop wrong.
I don't own a shop, I'm just a shooter who tunes their own stuff, like many on here.
I've learned to tune my own rigs because I enjoy it and I know what I like.

Luckily, the shop I shoot at has excellent customer service, actually knows and understands that a bow may have to have some twists put in to get timing and tune correct for a brand new out of the box bow.

Guess the OP, and now you, can't say the same...and resort to calling me arrogant for pointing out simple, well known facts.
By the way, the CAM, per the OP's post, does not dictate letoff on this setup, the rotating draw length mod does.

And...my opinion is NOT the minority here, guess we're all just arrogant, right?


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

For the record I've owned at least 7 brand new Hoyt bows and currently shoot a 2011 alpha elite with fuel cams so I know what to expect. This bow was nothing like I expected and it did not take me multiple shots to figure that out. I stopped shooting the bow almost immediately so it would not have any wear and tear on it. This thread was intended to solicit responses to Hoyts reason for not allowing the bow to be returned but it has turned into lets bash a dealer whom we never met but know he is worthless based on two paragraphs read on Archery Talk. Most of the so called Pros on AT seem to think its okay to demean others while touting how much they know. Why? This dealer is one of the most honest people I know and regardless of the opinions on AT knows Hoyt bows and how to tune them. He probably tunes more Hoyt bows in a week than most of you tune in a year. He did not waste time trying to tune this bow until he verified with Hoyt that everything on the bow was correct. It was Hoyt who asked him to send a picture. I was not able to hear what Hoyt actually told him but I did hear his side as I was there when he was speaking to Hoyt. What I heard my dealer say was "okay I will take a picture and send it to you in case the cams are marked wrong" and then he hung up. He turned to me and said Hoyt just told him it is possible the cams are marked wrong and seeing them would allow him to verify if they were correct.
I asked him to let me think about what i wanted to do before he put more effort into the bow. I don't claim to be a bow expert but I believe if you twist buss cables up you increase poundage and change the draw length. I am 60 years old and don't want to shoot a bow over 60 lbs or a bow with low let off.

I believe a company should stand behind their product. Hoyt advertises 75% let off. If the small cam does not get 75% let off then advertise "let off ranges will vary based on the size of the cams." I know the let off is inherently less than advertised in small cam sizes based on my previous experience with Hoyt bows but 10% is not acceptable. 

I posted this thread to see if I was being unreasonable about Hoyts response. Most of you seem to think Hoyts response was appropriate so I will not pursue trying to return the bow. I do appreciate getting that information


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

A. Is this your first target bow by Hoyt? I ask because the draw cycle and hold are much different than hunting bows, speed bows, etc.
B. Yes, twist buss cable will increase lb, there are also more methods to getting the draw weight down, several in fact. 
C. If you expect any bow to come in at exact specs, you're in for a disappointment. While I agree 66 or 67% letoff is unacceptable to you, and should be, there are several fixes as said. Now, the bow might pull at 62 lbs, possibly. There are a ton of bows out there, well known, that draw short or long, have limbs that pull, in good tune,a couple pounds over or even under. Matthews are well known for being 1/8 - 1/2 inch on the long side.
D. If Hoyt does in fact say their short draw cam rated at 75% will not do that, and 66 or 67% is the best they can do...then I'll agree with you.

When you don't hear Hoyt's side, just your dealers...that's an issue.
Speakerphone for one.

I've had several Prevails with X3 cams, the generation before DCX. Each one was 75% letoff. My draw weight was between 50 and 51lbs, holding weight was always between 12.4 to 12.6 lbs on the money when the cams were timed correctly.
And yes, sometimes it was tedious, half a twist here and there to get it right.

I hope somehow you're able to get resolution and satisfaction.
Best of luck.


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## Michshooter (Feb 21, 2016)

Tallybowman said:


> For the record I've owned at least 7 brand new Hoyt bows and currently shoot a 2011 alpha elite with fuel cams so I know what to expect. This bow was nothing like I expected and it did not take me multiple shots to figure that out. I stopped shooting the bow almost immediately so it would not have any wear and tear on it. This thread was intended to solicit responses to Hoyts reason for not allowing the bow to be returned but it has turned into lets bash a dealer whom we never met but know he is worthless based on two paragraphs read on Archery Talk. Most of the so called Pros on AT seem to think its okay to demean others while touting how much they know. Why? This dealer is one of the most honest people I know and regardless of the opinions on AT knows Hoyt bows and how to tune them. He probably tunes more Hoyt bows in a week than most of you tune in a year. He did not waste time trying to tune this bow until he verified with Hoyt that everything on the bow was correct. It was Hoyt who asked him to send a picture. I was not able to hear what Hoyt actually told him but I did hear his side as I was there when he was speaking to Hoyt. What I heard my dealer say was "okay I will take a picture and send it to you in case the cams are marked wrong" and then he hung up. He turned to me and said Hoyt just told him it is possible the cams are marked wrong and seeing them would allow him to verify if they were correct.
> I asked him to let me think about what i wanted to do before he put more effort into the bow. I don't claim to be a bow expert but I believe if you twist buss cables up you increase poundage and change the draw length. I am 60 years old and don't want to shoot a bow over 60 lbs or a bow with low let off.
> 
> I believe a company should stand behind their product. Hoyt advertises 75% let off. If the small cam does not get 75% let off then advertise "let off ranges will vary based on the size of the cams." I know the let off is inherently less than advertised in small cam sizes based on my previous experience with Hoyt bows but 10% is not acceptable.
> ...


Why are so against tuning this bow? Seriously we are talking about 15 minutes of work to put this bow where you want it.

The fact is bow strings from factory sometime are not perfect. This can be tuned out or get a custom set made. 

It does seem unreasonable that a high end bow would come with crappy strings but many/most do. I suggest tuning this thing up and then buying a new set. Keep the factory’s paper clipped together to keep the twists and save them for a spare.

You will like the new strings better anyway 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

dajogejr said:


> A. Is this your first target bow by Hoyt? I ask because the draw cycle and hold are much different than hunting bows, speed bows, etc.
> B. Yes, twist buss cable will increase lb, there are also more methods to getting the draw weight down, several in fact.
> C. If you expect any bow to come in at exact specs, you're in for a disappointment. While I agree 66 or 67% letoff is unacceptable to you, and should be, there are several fixes as said. Now, the bow might pull at 62 lbs, possibly. There are a ton of bows out there, well known, that draw short or long, have limbs that pull, in good tune,a couple pounds over or even under. Matthews are well known for being 1/8 - 1/2 inch on the long side.
> D. If Hoyt does in fact say their short draw cam rated at 75% will not do that, and 66 or 67% is the best they can do...then I'll agree with you.
> ...


Thank you for your response. I appreciate your questions and I will answer each one.
Here are the Hoyt bows I have purchased brand new;
1. 32' alpha max
2. 737
3. Contender
4. Alpha Elite with Fuel Cams (one I currently shoot was bought used)
5. Pro Edge Elite
6. HyperEdge
7. Prevail
8. Faktor(current hunting bow)

Until now I've never had any real issues. I know enough about tuning to be dangerous so I leave up to my Pro Shop. 
I really like the bow and have no buyers remorse but my first impression was terrible. I've known the dealer for 30 years and his honesty is beyond question. If he says Hoyt told him it's possible that the cam is marked wrong then that is what Hoyt said.
After the picture of the cam was sent and Hoyt confirmed it to be correct he again took measurements of the bow, put it on a draw board and checked the timing and draw length and measured the poundage and let off. At that point it was late on a Friday and I ask him to not doing anything else until iI gave it some thought. On Monday the store reached out to Hoyt and then everything occurred as I have previously written.

Having made many purchases from Hoyt from multiple dealers I know there is always some variation. I chose to order the 26" cam because I wanted to maximize the let off and the 26" goes from 24.5-26. I could have ordered the #2 cam that goes from 26.5 to 28 and used the grips Hoyt provides to shorten the draw length but I thought the let off would be better since 26" was the top of the #1 cam.

I know that the bow can be tuned closer to the specifications that Hoyt advertises and this weekend I will go the store and see what can be done. My original thread was started because I could not believe that putting on a rest and shooting the bow in the store made Hoyt consider the bow used. Since I've never wanted to send anything back there answer caught me off guard.

If AT is any indication of what others think then its clear my expectations for resolution with Hoyt were not realistic so I will not pursue returning the bow for a refund. Your post was refreshing to read because you did not instantly slam the dealer. He has done only what I asked so far.

In the event he can't get the desired let off at my desired pull weight and draw length then I will pay to have it shipped back to Hoyt and see what they can do.

Thank you and if you want to keep up with how this turns out let me know and I will PM with the final outcome.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

Michshooter said:


> Why are so against tuning this bow? Seriously we are talking about 15 minutes of work to put this bow where you want it.
> 
> The fact is bow strings from factory sometime are not perfect. This can be tuned out or get a custom set made.
> 
> ...


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts, but here are some of my thoughts: 

1. I would be taking the string/cables off and measuring them. I've messed around with/owned/tuned just about every Hoyt made since the mid 2000's. I've never encountered one that was 8% low on the Letoff rating. However, I have recently ran into a couple newer Hoyts with factory threads that were roughly 3/8" off the specs listed on the tune chart. If you're dealer has the means to check the string/cable specs accurately, I would do it. I don't trust factory strings on a target bow, so I would be changing them anyway for myself. 

2. Make sure the cables are routed properly thru the cable rod slide. 

3. An option you can try is to move the draw length on the cams to the 25.5" slot. Then ADD 4-5 twists to each cable, and REMOVE 4-5 twists from the string. Make sure the cams are synced, and try shooting it. It should end up being pretty close to your draw length, and probably have more letoff.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

I'm not really getting this whole ( used not used thing) , I can go into a shop today, shoot 4 different bows, buy the one i like best, then you come in right behind me, buy the other 3 i didn't choose and i bet you pay New price, most shops dont have a demo bow for every model. Seems to me if it never left the store or dealers supervision it would be sold as new to the next customer.


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

hildyarcher92 said:


> Did the dealer check timing on the bow? I have had hybrid cam bow where the timing was out even though axle to axle and brace height were in spec. In these instances, if the bottom cam was making contact first, let off percentage and valley suffered.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This. Have this checked. I doubt anything else is wrong with the bow.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

Allen cox said:


> I'm not really getting this whole ( used not used thing) , I can go into a shop today, shoot 4 different bows, buy the one i like best, then you come in right behind me, buy the other 3 i didn't choose and i bet you pay New price, most shops dont have a demo bow for every model. Seems to me if it never left the store or dealers supervision it would be sold as new to the next customer.


I asked the dealer if he would check with Hoyt and see if I could return the bow and pay a restocking fee since the bows let off was so drastically less than advertised based on Hoyt's printed literature. Hoyt told the dealer that once a rest was put on the bow and the bow was shot they could not take it back because it was used. They said the rest would leave an imprint which keep them from reselling it as new. We did take the rest off and there was no imprint. The bow looked no different than when it came out of the box. That is why I could not believe Hoyts response but after seeing all the comments I guess it makes sense. The Dealer is willing to keep the bow and give me back my money but I'm going to take the advice from AT and have the dealer try and tune the bow. He has not done anything to the bow other than what I've stated in this string of post.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

dajogejr said:


> And...my opinion is NOT the minority here, guess we're all just arrogant, right?


I like arrogance in a pilot.......I mean bow tuner. That just means we get it right.:thumbs_up


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

You weren't there. You didn't pull the bow, and if you believe experienced shooter's aren't able to know there is a problem with a bow right off the bat, then I question your abilities. If the cams are wrong, no amount of "twisting the cables" is going to fix that.

Yeah, I find a lot of people disgustingly arrogant. And stupid, considering the OP's original not had nothing to do with tuning the bow, but with Hoyt customer service. Unfotrunetly for him a bunch of self righteous no it alls had to pontificate on a different subject.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Tallybowman said:


> ... but I'm going to take the advice from AT and have the *dealer try and tune the bow*.


Not to pile on more questions about your dealer, but probably the most important part may be being slighted here. 

Nobody can "tune a bow" for you. *Only you* can tune *your* bow. Your dealer should know this and this should have been the very first thing they covered with you - that bow should have gone into your hands immediately after the intial setup, and never left them unless to go into the press, etc.

That said, of course someone else can rough it in for you - put a d-loop on it, set up the knocking point and rest with the bowsquare and put a shaft through it just to make sure something major isn't wrong with it.

But shafts 2 through end-of-life-of-bow must be shot by *you and only you*. That includes any and all tuning - meaning shaft selection, bare shafting, rest adjustments, DL and d-loop adjustments, the whole kit and kaboodle. Nobody else should be touching that bow on the line but you.

If your dealer didn't clarify this with you and didn't promptly put you on the line in front of the paper with that bow in your hands from the get-go and I mean while the blobs on the d-loop ends are still warm.... they failed probably responsibility #1 in customer support. Sure a shaft or two to make sure something isn't going to snap or fly off, etc. is ok. But you and only you should be the only one ever putting shafts through it after that until the bow is sold or worn out and retired...

So I'm afraid I have to join the chorus of folks questioning your dealer. Who's ultimately at fault for all that is another issue, but I'd consider this a major problem if it wasn't ever brought up, personally.
lee.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Tallybowman said:


> Your post was refreshing to read because you did not instantly slam the dealer. He has done only what I asked so far.


Actually, I did say find a new dealer in another post. I was called arrogant by someone else, not sure if they're one and the same person.
On your prevail, was it an X3 cam or SVX?

I have a 50lb, DCX number 3 cam 40ATA on the way. I'm going to measure it all up and see where it comes in on timing, draw weight and length.
I bought 2 of my X3 prevails brand new, 2 of them used. The 2 new both had to have a few twists to get the DL and letoff right...

I would accept if he could get your weight, length and let off within a few % points of spec. 

I use the cable stop peg on my X3 bows. I measure timing off the peg and when the cable bottoms out in the top cam groove.
If those aren't both dead on, DL and letoff are affected. Regardless if you use the peg or not, I use it for accurate timing.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

Allen cox said:


> I'm not really getting this whole ( used not used thing) , I can go into a shop today, shoot 4 different bows, buy the one i like best, then you come in right behind me, buy the other 3 i didn't choose and i bet you pay New price, most shops dont have a demo bow for every model. Seems to me if it never left the store or dealers supervision it would be sold as new to the next customer.


The bow was a special order. The dealer has not received his floor models yet. And yes, Hoyt is being a bunch off asses for not working with the dealer and owner due to the circumstances you noted above.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

dajogejr said:


> Actually, I did say find a new dealer in another post. I was called arrogant by someone else, not sure if they're one and the same person.


Nope, not one and the same. I'm just very defensive of my friends and a dealer that has bent over backwards to help me in the past. Even at a national even he went out of his way to help me when my rest broke and he only had a few minutes to get to his stake. The trash talking regarding him was unacceptable to me.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Milo357 said:


> You weren't there. You didn't pull the bow, and if you believe experienced shooter's aren't able to know there is a problem with a bow right off the bat, then I question your abilities. If the cams are wrong, no amount of "twisting the cables" is going to fix that.
> 
> Yeah, I find a lot of people disgustingly arrogant. And stupid, considering the OP's original not had nothing to do with tuning the bow, but with Hoyt customer service. Unfotrunetly for him a bunch of self righteous no it alls had to pontificate on a different subject.


Post removed.
You're not the dealer, you're not the owner, just a person who knows both people with no first hand knowledge.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Milo357 said:


> Nope, not one and the same. I'm just very defensive of my friends and a dealer that has bent over backwards to help me in the past. Even at a national even he went out of his way to help me when my rest broke and he only had a few minutes to get to his stake. The trash talking regarding him was unacceptable to me.



I'm think you're mistaking a very nice guy and good dealer, which...I'm sure this person is, with one who either made a mistake OR the fact the board is not getting enough info about.

I've bent over backwards to help plenty, taken parts off my own bow to help others... that doesn't mean I can't make mistakes. Of which, I make plenty.

So, other than being a third party here, you really have no first hand knowledge of said bow, it's not yours, you just know the dealer and the owner.

Noted and got it. Let the adults talk now.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Allen cox said:


> I'm not really getting this whole ( used not used thing) , I can go into a shop today, shoot 4 different bows, buy the one i like best, then you come in right behind me, buy the other 3 i didn't choose and i bet you pay New price, most shops dont have a demo bow for every model. Seems to me if it never left the store or dealers supervision it would be sold as new to the next customer.


I wouldn't.. And I don't know why anyone would.... I'd never pay new price for something with so much as a d-loop installed, and for darn sure if it's got a sight on it and there's wear on the loop showing that it's been shot. Hell you don't know if it was dry-fired by accident by that guy who always comes into the shop on a busy sat., sneaks back onto the range, hauls it back with his fist and lets it go when trying to let down. You know the one, we've all seen him: Kapow! <shop dog runs to the back of the shop and everyone suddenly stops talking>... We're busy as hell, so look it over real quick: ok it survived so back on the rack it goes and let's just keep that incident hush-hush.....

Seriously - I've seen that happen and if they're getting away with selling shot bows for NIB prices, they're probably not above selling a *really really* shot bow for a NIB price.

Personally, if it's got a d-loop or a rest on it, I'm careful to ask how much it's been shot. Then if I was serious about buying it, I'd politely make them an offer at some discount off new, pointing out that it ain't no new bow anymore.. 

Certainly, If *I* was the one who shot the bow from new, of course I'd pay NIB price. But not if it wasn't me and I didn't know who it was that put those shots on it and how many.

Yes, I know, all this is a catch-22 for the shop, I totally understand that. But it's a catch-22 for you the potential buyer too, so you also have to be careful especially when plunking down the piles of cash we typically have to drop....

And BTW, this is the same line of thinking that Hoyt does too, and they're right to do it. Plus or minus a "make it right" policy of course, but they need to stay in business like everyone else...

lee.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Dealer can do whatever they want, but "Hoyt" is not going to take back a bow a customer did not like because they can't just put it back in the box and send it to another dealer as though it was actually "new". 

OP and dealer are apparently going to work with the bow some more... I'd be interested in seeing some pics of the mods, particularly the identification marks and color of the mod.
I'd also like to see pics of it in a drawboard at peak weight and at full draw with the stops just touching the cables. The reported 60.6lbs peak would be 15.2lbs holding at 75% and 21.2lbs at 65%. X3/DCX cams don't transition to the valley like most other bows. For some reason, I think it's likely the cam is doing pretty much what it should be doing, it's just not what the user expected.

FYI, I have an Invicta37 w/DCX on order and I'm getting both the 65 and 75 mods. The one I shot prior to ordering had DXC cams with 65% mods, and the mods were grey/gunmetal, not black as mods are identifiable not only by the lettering, but also by the color.


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## Thompson316 (Mar 19, 2018)

Hoyts on its way to Walmart anyway.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

lees said:


> Not to pile on more questions about your dealer, but probably the most important part may be being slighted here.
> 
> Nobody can "tune a bow" for you. *Only you* can tune *your* bow. Your dealer should know this and this should have been the very first thing they covered with you - that bow should have gone into your hands immediately after the intial setup, and never left them unless to go into the press, etc.
> 
> ...


I think the beef is more about the bow not having 75% with the current mods. 
No need to continue tuning, if the desired hold weight isn't met at the get go.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

I bet I can go to a shop tomorrow and shoot 3 hoyts, if you think their going to be sold as used the next day then yall are crazy,


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

I can test drive 3 $ 60,000 trucks tommarow, they will not be sold as used the next day.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

^^^Yes you can.
Order it from xxx and have it delivered to the dealership, it's yours unless the dealership allows you to back out.

Rare to have dealer order a target bow for a customer to test drive.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Allen cox said:


> I can test drive 3 $ 60,000 trucks tommarow, they will not be sold as used the next day.


..... but you cant custom order a truck and when it comes in have the dealer put accessories on it then decide you don't want it and send it back to Detroit and ask for a full refund....



Tallybowman said:


> So I ordered a silver Hoyt Invicta 37 with DCX 75% let off cam. Bow was delivered in about 5 weeks......
> ......
> The Dealer ask Hoyt if the bow could be returned and that I was willing to pay a restocking fee. * NOW THIS IS WHERE I CAN"T BELIEVE HOYT'S RESPONSE*, Hoyt said since the dealer put a rest on the bow and the bow was shot in the store it was now a used bow and they could not take it back.


So we're not talking about what a dealer does or doesn't do with their inventory as far as "test drives". The issue is whether it's reasonable to expect the factory to "refund" and "re-stock" a product that had been custom ordered, delivered, shot/driven, and accessorized.

Personally, I'm skeptical about whether the letoff was measured/calculated correctly, either that or there's is actually something wrong with the bow, such as being built with the wrong string/cables for the base cam, or the bow is badly out of time, or the mods are not in the same position, and any/all of those mistakes could have even happened a the factory, but likely something simple that when corrected, will make the bow produce the expected amount of letoff.


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## mjydrafter (Sep 24, 2019)

Man, you "new bow" guys are funny.

Signed,
Happy "used bow" guy.

Serious part of post: Don't most strings and cables required some kind of break-in?


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

First of all I hope the shop isn’t measuring letoff against the stops . Maybe this will help 
Maybe not . There is an easier way if you have the right scale 

Pay attention to paragraph 5.2


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Allen cox said:


> I can test drive 3 $ 60,000 trucks tommarow, they will not be sold as used the next day.


It depends on how far you drive them. If you smoke the tires at every stoplight on the drive to a couple of states and back at 100mph + and 10 speeding tickets, the dealer might actually have a little trouble hiding that from the next potential buyer. Depending on the odometer and, like, cracks in the windshield and bald tires, etc. you might have brought it back with . 

So I agree with nestly. "used" can mean a fairly wide range of things, but any evidence of use of a supposedly NIB bow should be carefully noted and discussed with whoever you buy it from. 

Wolverine also makes a good point above about how letoff is measured. Literally, if a manufacturer is given an inch on that, they'll take a mile. For what it's worth my hoyt tributes (may they R.I.P.) were rated at 65% letoff, but even in the middle of the valley they were closer to 50% in actual practice....

lee.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

lees said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > I can test drive 3 $ 60,000 trucks tommarow, they will not be sold as used the next day.
> ...


 that is like saying the OP took the bow to some ASA shoots , then tried to return it at the end of season, nope, it never left the store.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Allen cox said:


> that is like saying the OP took the bow to some ASA shoots , then tried to return it at the end of season, nope, it never left the store.


Doesn't matter if the bow left the store. You fire an arrow, you mount an arrow rest (EVEN if there are no set screw marks)....the bow is now used and not returnable. If the bow was a custom order, pretty sure the bow is not returnable, even if you never fire the bow.


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## cruizerjoy (Dec 20, 2016)

When it comes to special orders, returns should be talked about upfront before money exchanges hands. Its one of the pitfalls that happen in life when you buy sight unseen. If the bow is defective that would be a different story. Some of the ridiculous scenarios people come up with to bolster an argument is funny. If you go into a shop are those bows hanging on the rack considered new? I mean they have been fingered by hundreds of people? Some have even been shot. Even if its pulled fresh out of the box and you have the shop tune it for you its not "new" to you anymore right? I mean see how silly this is. When I pull the trigger on something I consider it mine even if it ends up not being what I expected unless its defective. I then expect the manufacturer to make it right. It sounds like this bow can be tuned to satisfaction with some patients and know how. I hope it works out for the OP.


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## kicker338 (Nov 30, 2008)

Boy oh boy this thread sounds like the Trump impeachment fiasco he said she said, he assumed she felt. At least this thread is very entertaining.


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## LIL MAN (May 7, 2009)

And I was considering a new Hoyt, nah


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

kicker338 said:


> Boy oh boy this thread sounds like the Trump impeachment fiasco he said she said, he assumed she felt. At least this thread is very entertaining.


Not a fiasco - if you dump $1500 on a bow, you expect the dealer and manufacture to get it right. 

1. It’s Hoyt’s responsibility to ensure that they are utilizing competent pro-shops. They should ensure that the shop has techs that are qualified to set-up their bows. Hoyt should drop that pro-shop.... it’s a slop shop. Hoyt’s dealer rep should personally apologize to the OP and offer a brand him a new bow. 

2. The majority of pro-shops that I’ve been to are terrible. A slob technician with tobacco oozing down his face and shirt, wearing some ridiculous shooters jersey, taking advantage of new customers. Usually has an a little entourage of fat buddies, with there collection of dip cups at the end of the counter. No wonder that pro shops are closing. 

I prefer box stores because they are clean, and have management who can rectify issues. Some box store techs are avid shooters who can properly get your bow setup.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

kicker338 said:


> Boy oh boy this thread sounds like the Trump impeachment fiasco he said she said, he assumed she felt. At least this thread is very entertaining.


But your right - it’s fun to hear the incompetent pro-shop folks argue with argue with archery customers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

bdimaggio said:


> Not a fiasco - if you dump $1500 on a bow, you expect the dealer and manufacture to get it right.
> 
> 1. It’s Hoyt’s responsibility to ensure that they are utilizing competent pro-shops. They should ensure that the shop has techs that are qualified to set-up their bows. Hoyt should drop that pro-shop.... it’s a slop shop. Hoyt’s dealer rep should personally apologize to the OP and offer a brand him a new bow.
> 
> ...


We're hearing one side of the situation. I can easily imagine a CS rep in Utah sitting down to dinner with his family and recounting a conversation he had with a a dealer on behalf of a customer where the customer ordered a custom bow, had buyers remorse, and claimed there was something wrong with the bow, expecting to get a full refund. "I can't believe people would do something like that" he says to his wife and kids.

Obviously, it's Hoyt's position that the bow left the factory built to the specifications of the order, and the dealer as of yet has provided no evidence to the contrary. Customer obviously thinks otherwise, but the reality is that nobody really knows, including the OP, who as I understand it, did not personally verify the scale measurements for Peak and Holding, or verify that letoff percentage was calculated correctly, and also did not verify whether the mods were labeled 65 or 75, or their color. If the bow was in fact shipped wrong, I'm absolutely certain Hoyt will make it right. However, as of now, after 5 pages, I don't see any evidence that Hoyt has been provided any actual information to indicate that the bow is in fact defective or otherwise not meeting specs.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

nestly said:


> We're hearing one side of the situation. I can easily imagine a CS rep in Utah sitting down to dinner with his family and recounting a conversation he had with a a dealer on behalf of a customer where the customer ordered a custom bow, had buyers remorse, and claimed there was something wrong with the bow, expecting to get a full refund. "I can't believe people would do something like that" he says to his wife and kids.
> 
> Obviously, it's Hoyt's position that the bow left the factory built to the specifications of the order, and the dealer as of yet has provided no evidence to the contrary. Customer obviously thinks otherwise, but the reality is that nobody really knows, including the OP, who as I understand it, did not personally verify the scale measurements for Peak and Holding, or verify that letoff percentage was calculated correctly, and also did not verify whether the mods were labeled 65 or 75, or their color. If the bow was in fact shipped wrong, I'm absolutely certain Hoyt will make it right. However, as of now, after 5 pages, I don't see any evidence that Hoyt has been provided any actual information to indicate that the bow is in fact defective or otherwise not meeting specs.


That is an expensive bow. The bow shop has got to ensure that cams are correctly timed / tuned. The Hoyt should have their dealer rep (assigned to area) involved in this mess. Most buyers don’t have technical skill to ensure everything is set right. That’s why we have to buy proline bows at pro-shops. This is we are losing pro shops left and right. I kinda feel as though the tech was incompetent, and Hoyt is too lazy to figure out why they just lost a customer. 

I have a Hoyt, and it concerns me that they are doing nothing about it. At least have their local rep look into it. Shame on Hoyt. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pullmyfinger (Sep 1, 2019)

LIL MAN said:


> And I was considering a new Hoyt, nah


They are not on my Radar.

My list of brands to be considered in the future are:
Bowtech, PSE, Elite


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

cruizerjoy said:


> When it comes to special orders, returns should be talked about upfront before money exchanges hands. Its one of the pitfalls that happen in life when you buy sight unseen. If the bow is defective that would be a different story. Some of the ridiculous scenarios people come up with to bolster an argument is funny. If you go into a shop are those bows hanging on the rack considered new? I mean they have been fingered by hundreds of people? Some have even been shot. Even if its pulled fresh out of the box and you have the shop tune it for you its not "new" to you anymore right? I mean see how silly this is. When I pull the trigger on something I consider it mine even if it ends up not being what I expected unless its defective. I then expect the manufacturer to make it right. It sounds like this bow can be tuned to satisfaction with some patients and know how. I hope it works out for the OP.


Agree - hopefully Hoyt has their local rep get involved. They need to make that pro shop get the bow correctly set up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

bdimaggio said:


> That is an expensive bow. The bow shop has got to ensure that cams are correctly timed / tuned. The Hoyt should have their dealer rep (assigned to area) involved in this mess. Most buyers don’t have technical skill to ensure everything is set right. That’s why we have to buy proline bows at pro-shops. This is we are losing pro shops left and right. I kinda feel as though the tech was incompetent, and Hoyt is too lazy to figure out why they just lost a customer.
> 
> I have a Hoyt, and it concerns me that they are doing nothing about it. At least have their local rep look into it. Shame on Hoyt.


Again, you're assuming that everything the OP has portrayed is exactly how it is. As best I can tell, the dealer called Hoyt and didn't tell Hoyt anything to make them believe there is an actual "problem" with the bow. What I'm saying is that virtually no bow company would do anything different than Hoyt given the amount of info that was apparently provided to them. I'd love to examine the bow (and the original order form).... I'm betting the "problem" isn't really a "problem" at all, or it's something simple like the mod are not in the same position, for example, which may or may not have happened during assembly, but either way would not justify a full refund, it would be a simple matter of the dealer making them match.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

nestly said:


> Again, you're assuming that everything the OP has portrayed is exactly how it is. As best I can tell, the dealer called Hoyt and didn't tell Hoyt anything to make them believe there is an actual "problem" with the bow. What I'm saying is that virtually no bow company would do anything different than Hoyt given the amount of info that was apparently provided to them. I'd love to examine the bow (and the original order form).... I'm betting the "problem" isn't really a "problem" at all, or it's something simple like the mod are not in the same position, for example, which may or may not have happened during assembly, but either way would not justify a full refund, it would be a simple matter of the dealer making them match.


I don’t have a Mathews, but I believe Mathews would have a rep check it out. Seriously - I shoot (my Hoyt) a lot at a Mathews only shop. The shop only sells Mathews. The Mathews rep is always in there checking on things. Makes me want to buy the new Mathews bow. 

I agree, I get the feeling you are on your own with a Hoyt, PSE, and Bowtech. I love Bowtech bows, but dislike their marketing. 

I’ll never buy another PSE. Had one with a defected cable slide on a mid level bow. I could not get them to replace a $7 cable slide that had some rough burrs along the edge that was prematurely wearing the cable. I put a Hoyt cable slide on my PSE, and decided to never buy a PSE again. Again PSE lost an avid customer over a $7 dollar slide. 

I’ve had no issues with my Hoyt Hyperforce, but don’t trust the company after this post and others. Too many negative comments... 




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## dwolrey87 (Aug 2, 2016)

Thats amazing. You would think they could do better than that


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

bdimaggio said:


> I don’t have a Mathews, but I believe Mathews would have a rep check it out.


Just so we're on the same page here. It's my understanding that there was a single call made to Hoyt (tech support), and the purpose of that call was to confirm the mod on the bow was correct for the bow in question. With no additional info, the call was transfered to CS where the dealer conveyed the OP's desire to cancel the transaction, a request that was denied based on that one call to tech. 

Here are the details as I understand them:
At the time of that single call, neither OP or dealer knew how to identify a 65% DCX mod from a 75% DCX mod based on the markings or the color of the mod.
At the time of that single call, OP had not witnessed the bow being measured for peak or holding weight, and also doesn't know what those two numbers are to confirm whether the letoff calculation was done properly.
At the time of that single call, neither OP nor dealer had removed the strings/cables to verify their length.
At the time of the call, OP did not indicate whether both mods had been confirmed to be in the same position.

If any/all of that is true, I don't think this issue is even on Hoyt's radar. It does not sound to me like the dealer made a compelling case that he had checked everything thoroughly to make sure the problem wasn't something simple, and therefore was not assertive that there was definitely something wrong with the bow that couldn't be remedied at the dealer level. Had dealer made a compelling case that the bow was in fact performing very differently than expected, Hoyt would have suggested a remedy, whether sending new parts, or sending the bow back to the factory for them to examine themselves. 

IMO, a lot of people are assuming that dealer had performed a thorough check, was himself convinced the bow was defective, and Hoyt was simply not interested in helping. That's not the impression I get, I think the dealer had not yet thoroughly checked the bow, and the purpose of the call was simply to confirm what mod should be on the bow, and when it was confirmed the mod is the mod Hoyt said should be there, the troubleshooting portion ended and the focus became returning rather than diagnosing the actual problem.

OP can correct any of the above, but that's the scenario I've pieced together from the OP's information, and why I think it's not one bit unusual that Hoyt declined to cancel the transaction based on the information they were provided at the time.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

Update on Invicta Bow. Today I went into the store but the dealer was not in so one of the employees helped me. We took the bow, pressed it and took strings off and measured each one. They match the lengths specified on the bow. We measured axle to axle and the bow was 36 7/8, Not quite 37" but based on previous Hoyt purchases with the small cam that length seems normal. We put it on a draw board and checked to make sure that each cam contacted the string at the same time. The Top cam was hitting about 1/16' before bottom cam. The employee measured the draw weight and the holding weight on three different scales. 

Scale #1 Lancaster archery scale DW 62.9 Holding weight 22.2 Scale #2 X-spot DW 61.27 holding weight 20.81 Scale #3 (don't know brand but the store uses it to measure string tension when making custom strings) DW 60.50 Holding weight 22. One thing I confirmed today is that scales vary.

Some additional information. The cams do not have draw stop pegs. The top cam is marked DCX 1TR HL and the bottom cam is marked DCX 1 BR HL. The only adjustment on the cams that we could see were the draw length adjustments and we confirmed everything matched for the 26" setting.

I'm not stating any other facts because this is all I know. I did speak to the dealer on the phone and he said Monday he will make the bow his priority and see what he can do. He has been out all week.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

One more thing. We put d loop and rest back on and shot bow through chrono. The speed was 274 with no peep installed. My 2011 alpha elite at 60 lbs 26" Draw Length shooting same arrow measured 282 with Hamskea Peep and clarifer installed. Took rest back off and examine bow carefully and I could not find any marks. If Hoyt was not told the bow had a rest installed they would never know based on the bow itself.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

The bottom cam should have a draw stop peg.
It can be removed for a harder back wall.
The top cam will not have the peg.

This is direct from Hoyt's website regarding the DCX cam:
"The new DCX Cam is available in 65 or 75% let-off options with a built-in modular draw length adjustment system that features a removable rubber stop for an even harder wall."

Full disclosure, since this is the short draw cam, it may not have the peg. I can't see how that's possible...as hoyt advertises the Rubber stop.
It's predecessor, the X3, has the draw stop peg in all 3 sized cams. I owned them all.
You'll usually find slight variance in scales, same could be said for air pressure gauges.
You're getting between 33 and 36% letoff.
You have the 75% letoff mods on there, that's what HL means, high letoff.

Here's the issue, any one of these combinations.
1. Timing is off
2. Tech is pulling too hard into the end of the draw cycle.

If they took the time to remove the strings and measure them, why not twist the cable to get timing correct, you mentioned 1/16 off.
That's half or one twist. I can tell you from my own personal experience, I get the best timing tune going off the string bottoming in the top cam groove and the bottom hitting the draw stop peg. As soon as they both touch...and I mean as SOON as the both touch, that's your letoff.
If i crank our drawboard a single click more into the cams, my 12.5lb holding weight jumps to 15 to 16 lbs.

There has to be 4 holes on the bottom cam to screw this draw stop into, one for each length in that cams range, 25.5,26, 26.5 and 27.








Lastly, I don't know what the point of listing speed was, two completely different bows.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

I posted pictures of the cams from both sides so you guys are seeing what I see. Not sure where I would put draw pegs.
I listed speed because Hoyt touts this bow to be their best target bow to date yet my 2011 Alpha Elite with advertised speeds of 323 shoots faster than the 2020 Invicta with advertised speeds of 324. Same draw lengths, Alpha Elite slightly lower draw weight and higher let off as measure on same scales as Invicta. I believe advertised speeds are based on 70 lbs 350 grain arrow and 30 “ draw length but all things considered my 2011 bow out performs the Invicta at my draw length. Now the dealer will work on bow tomorrow so maybe things will improve. I only posted to tell ATers who responded to the thread what I saw yesterday.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > that is like saying the OP took the bow to some ASA shoots , then tried to return it at the end of season, nope, it never left the store.
> ...


 I get but I think most bows in a shop that are sold as new have been shot, just last week I watched a guy walk in, he told the owner what he liked, he shot 2 different Obsession bows, he purchased one, the other is still on the rack for sail as a new bow, it's been like that at every shop iv ever been to, now a custom order may be a little different, but then again dont owners order the bows they stock, in a sense isn't that custom, I just dont see why everyone thinks a bow is considered used if a rest is bolted on and shot a few times at the shop, iv never saw a shop that could keep demos for every model, and I seriously doubt anyone else has either, and iv never saw where anyone would be happy to buy a New bow from a shop that would not let them fire it a few times before. Jmo.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Allen cox said:


> I get but I think most bows in a shop that are sold as new have been shot, just last week I watched a guy walk in, he told the owner what he liked, he shot 2 different Obsession bows, he purchased one, the other is still on the rack for sail as a new bow, it's been like that at every shop iv ever been to, now a custom order may be a little different, but then again dont owners order the bows they stock, in a sense isn't that custom, I just dont see why everyone thinks a bow is considered used if a rest is bolted on and shot a few times at the shop, iv never saw a shop that could keep demos for every model, and I seriously doubt anyone else has either, and iv never saw where anyone would be happy to buy a New bow from a shop that would not let them fire it a few times before. Jmo.


Again, the issue is not whether dealers let customers test bows and then still sell them to someone else as new, it's about whether the factory should/would take back bows that have been shot, regardless of whether they are special orders for a customer, or shop inventory that the shop ordered and allowed to be demo'd by customers. The answer (regardless of brand) is "NO" The factory is not going to ever restock a bow that's been shipped out and shot by one or more potential buyers. 

If there is in fact an real defect with the bow that can't be remedied by the dealer, every bow manufacturer will make that right, including Hoyt. But we're not there yet, as I understand it, there's been only one call placed to Hoyt thus far, and the only technical information that was discussed was clarification about the markings on the mod.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nestly said:


> That's not the impression I get, I think the dealer had not yet thoroughly checked the bow, and the purpose of the call was simply to confirm what mod should be on the bow, and when it was confirmed the mod is the mod Hoyt said should be there, the troubleshooting portion ended and the focus became returning rather than diagnosing the actual problem.


Agree 100% with nestly - and this is why I normally don't follow these types of threads. Usually what the manufacturer sees at the end of these things is a customer simply trying to get out of a perfectly good bow because of Buyer's Remorse after a lot of fiddling with non-problems on a perfectly fine bow and no actual shooting at a target or an animal. Bow never leaves the shop or goes to the line, only back and forth to the press agonizing and hair-tearing over 2-3 lbs on a basically worthless bowscale, 1/4" of ATA or something like that. Again, I emphasize that's what the manufacturer *sees,* whether or not that's actually the case, including this one. 

However, that happens frequently enough that, if the dealer and customer don't make a compelling case *that there really is a problem with the product*, that's usually why a manufacturer turns down the return request and starts pushing back with troubleshooting user-error. Or begins offering other advice of things to try to remedy the apparent issue. 

Same thing with the aforementioned $7 plastic slide incident mentioned in a previous post. That's why plastic slides are little plastic bits, that only cost 7 bucks; they're essentially consumable items, like strings and arrows, not durable good warranty issues. Things like that are not grounds for labeling a now-used-and-shot-multiple-times bow as defective and forcing it back to the manufacturer for a full refund of the new price. Yeah, maybe it's kind of petty not to give you another $7 slide from inventory if the original one has a burr on it, but it's also not anywhere near the ballpark of grounds for claiming PSE produces defective bows that they refuse to support, etc.

So I have to side with nestly on this one too. Hoyt is well within their rights to make sure it's not just a Buyer's Remorse or otherwise a user-error issue before they swallow the loss of a $1700-1800 bow. No matter how big you are, you just can't stay in business putting perfectly good $1800 bows in the bin like that on a regular basis. That's why they're pushing back and asking for more information, etc. 

Of course, it may turn out that there's actually a problem, but at the same time it's up to the dealer and customer to do their due diligence that they're setting up and using the product correctly first. Then the issue of a defective return, etc., can be taken up. 

Anyway, that's the annoying, unglamorous truth of plunking down $1800 on a high-end target bow. The manufacturer assumes that for that kind of money on a high-end bow, the dealer and customer have at least a minimal level of competence in bow setup and tuning. If not, they push back and they have to in order to stay in business selling bows for that price. That's a lot of money for both sides, not just the customer. So you have to expect some back and forth when there's a claim of a problem....

lee.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

nestly said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > I get but I think most bows in a shop that are sold as new have been shot, just last week I watched a guy walk in, he told the owner what he liked, he shot 2 different Obsession bows, he purchased one, the other is still on the rack for sail as a new bow, it's been like that at every shop iv ever been to, now a custom order may be a little different, but then again dont owners order the bows they stock, in a sense isn't that custom, I just dont see why everyone thinks a bow is considered used if a rest is bolted on and shot a few times at the shop, iv never saw a shop that could keep demos for every model, and I seriously doubt anyone else has either, and iv never saw where anyone would be happy to buy a New bow from a shop that would not let them fire it a few times before. Jmo.
> ...


 I agree, that's not the issue, I do not agree that the bow should labeled as Used like some are saying it is because it was fired in the shop , like most others hanging on the rack.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Allen cox said:


> I agree, that's not the issue, I do not agree that the bow should labeled as Used like some are saying it is because it was fired in the shop , like most others hanging on the rack.


OK, so there's different levels of "new". In absolute terms, any bow that's been shot after leaving the factory is clearly NOT "new" in the eyes of the manufacturer, and that is easily confirmed if you try to get them to restock such a bow. At the dealer level however, there's really no limit to how much, or how many different people may shoot it, and it's still considered "new". My definition of "new" falls a lot closer to the first example, and if I'm going to buy a "new" bow, I generally want to be the first person that touched it after the box is opened, even if it means ordering the exact same thing the shop has hanging on the rack for "whoever" to test shoot. If the price is the same either way (which it is), why shouldn't I choose a pristine bow fresh out of a sealed plastic bag vs one that has the DNA of 50 random people all over it?

In other industries, there's usually discounts for "open box" and "display model", so why would that be unreasonable for archery equipment?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nestly said:


> In other industries, there's usually discounts for "open box" and "display model", so why would that be unreasonable for archery equipment?


Also agree. "Used" isn't a hard and fast category and you have to kind of play that by ear. And you'd also have to expect different manufacturers to have different ideas about this too. A smaller, less well-known operation trying to build a reputation in the industry may be a little more willing to swallow a loss on a bow, particularly if it's a high-profile scuffle that got splattered all over Facebook or AT, etc. It might be in their best interests in terms of PR, to just go ahead and take a hit to fire-fight a prominent incident. They might "make it right" even if it was already right to begin with and it was ultimately a user-error issue. That's ok, and it's a good policy in that situation, IMO. 

OTOH, a large, established outfit like Hoyt, who's been around for more than 40 years and has subsequently become pretty jaded by all the millions of attempts from the past that have been made to get them to swallow a big loss based on user-error may not be so inclined to "make it right" even if the customer and/or dealer is at fault. They might not need to do that, or are otherwise more meticulous about their P&L each quarter and so on. You might have to really do your work to prove to them that there's a problem. 

And you might find operations somewhere in between like PSE. They're good about making things right and preserving their appearance in the industry, but you also can't pull any wool over their eyes either over things like a $7 plastic slide. 

Speaking for myself, I'm not made of money so I'm usually pretty meticulous about what I consider "NIB" and "used". If it's got a d-loop and rest mounted, I'll at least mention it and ask if there's a discount available for it. If they insist on NIB, I may or may not push back depending on a close inspection of the condition of whatever I'm buying. 

All that said, I don't recall the last time I actually went all the way through with a buy like that, and paid NIB price for a bow that didn't I didn't actually pull out of the manufacturer's box myself. I normally don't buy used or off the new-rack. That's because I've not yet found a used bow for sale that I could physically handle. That possibly may strecth back to about 1990 and my old Hoyt ProStar. So i've always had to custom-order my compounds from a shop or direct from the manufacturer.

The supra focus XL I have on the way is the first exception to the custom order of a new bow I ever recall ever making, to my knowledge. It's a 50lb model I ordered from Lancaster. Last I shot a compound bow a few months ago, I was just coming up to being able to handle 40lb peak weight, so I think I can handle a "stock" 50lb non-custom order bow this time, backed all the way off. I'll see when it gets here. 

Anyway, that's off topic, but that's my .02 on that issue...

lee.


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## zambezi (Jul 14, 2006)

dajogejr said:


> The bottom cam should have a draw stop peg.
> It can be removed for a harder back wall.
> The top cam will not have the peg.
> 
> ...


The DCX cam does not have a draw stop peg on either cam.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

zambezi said:


> The DCX cam does not have a draw stop peg on either cam.


Understood.
What is the rubber stop listed by Hoyt?
Where's does it go, how does it work?
I don't see the holes for a peg either and I was taken into consideration they took this into the design from the X3.

Thank you for correcting me.





Sent via mobile


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

dajogejr said:


> What is the rubber stop listed by Hoyt?
> Where's does it go, how does it work?


I don't specifically recall seeing it on the DCX I shot, but I assume it's similar to what Hoyt has used in the past (such as the Z5 cam)


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

Interesting...
Thanks Nestly



Sent via mobile


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

The cams remind me of the cam 1/2's on the old ultra and protecs with no stops.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

nestly said:


> Just so we're on the same page here. It's my understanding that there was a single call made to Hoyt (tech support), and the purpose of that call was to confirm the mod on the bow was correct for the bow in question. With no additional info, the call was transfered to CS where the dealer conveyed the OP's desire to cancel the transaction, a request that was denied based on that one call to tech.
> 
> Here are the details as I understand them:
> At the time of that single call, neither OP or dealer knew how to identify a 65% DCX mod from a 75% DCX mod based on the markings or the color of the mod.
> ...


Nestly, the dealer appears to be uneducated on the proper set-up of this bow. They are supposed to be the expert... hence "pro shop." Hoyt has a responsibility to do two things:

1. Send the Hoyt dealer rep to that pro-shop to see if they know what the heck they are doing. Figure out if they have an untrained tech, etc. Maybe that shop isn't qualified to sell/maintain/set-up the bow.

2. Have the Hoyt dealer rep call the customer and apologize, and ensure efforts to make it right. The Hoyt rep should have the customer meet at the pro-shop to get it fixed in front of his eyes, so he walks away a happy customer. If the pro-shop is unable to do satisfactory work, Hoyt should refund the full cost of the bow to the unhappy customer... and provide training for the unqualified tech.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

Tallybowman said:


> Update on Invicta Bow. Today I went into the store but the dealer was not in so one of the employees helped me. We took the bow, pressed it and took strings off and measured each one. They match the lengths specified on the bow. We measured axle to axle and the bow was 36 7/8, Not quite 37" but based on previous Hoyt purchases with the small cam that length seems normal. We put it on a draw board and checked to make sure that each cam contacted the string at the same time. The Top cam was hitting about 1/16' before bottom cam. The employee measured the draw weight and the holding weight on three different scales.
> 
> Scale #1 Lancaster archery scale DW 62.9 Holding weight 22.2 Scale #2 X-spot DW 61.27 holding weight 20.81 Scale #3 (don't know brand but the store uses it to measure string tension when making custom strings) DW 60.50 Holding weight 22. One thing I confirmed today is that scales vary.
> 
> ...


Sad that you have to go through all of this. This should have been a more pleasant experience considering the money you just spent. Make the pro-shop/dealer and Hoyt make this right! You spent hard earned cash for Hoyt's product and and the pro-shop's service...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

bdimaggio said:


> Nestly, the dealer appears to be uneducated on the proper set-up of this bow.


That may or may not be the case... but it certainly has not been established IMO. There are probably dozens of authorized dealers that have never sold a Hoyt target bow, and only a small percentage of those who have will have seen the new DFC cams in person. 



bdimaggio said:


> They are supposed to be the expert... hence "pro shop." Hoyt has a responsibility to do two things:
> 
> 1. Send the Hoyt dealer rep to that pro-shop to see if they know what the heck they are doing. Figure out if they have an untrained tech, etc. Maybe that shop isn't qualified to sell/maintain/set-up the bow.
> 
> 2. Have the Hoyt dealer rep call the customer and apologize, and ensure efforts to make it right. The Hoyt rep should have the customer meet at the pro-shop to get it fixed in front of his eyes, so he walks away a happy customer. If the pro-shop is unable to do satisfactory work, Hoyt should refund the full cost of the bow to the unhappy customer... and provide training for the unqualified tech.


That very well may be, but my impression based on the content of this thread is Hoyt has no idea about the details of this situation, and there have been a lot of "conclusions" made in this thread that actual techs and actual customer care representatives would NOT have reached based on the info provided. If Hoyt (or any manufacturer) employed enough staff to send a rep to a shop everytime a dealer called on behalf of a customer, Hoyt's payroll would be 10x larger than it is. Im sure it will get resolved, but I frankly wouldn't expect Hoyt to start groveling based on that one call where nothing was established about the actual cause of the problem/concern.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

Some the dealer reps have linked-in accounts. I've found a couple just browsing linked-in, who appear to have responsibilities for the pro-shops in the state that I live in. If I ever have a problem with a bow service from a pro-shop, I will try and contact the dealer rep first. I have a feeling these folks can apply the right pressures on the HQs, as well as the pro-shop, in order to resolve problems quickly. I reached out to one just to see if i would get a response, and got a response within a few hours. Anyway, I appreciated reading your perspective on the OPs situation.


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## zambezi (Jul 14, 2006)

dajogejr said:


> Understood.
> What is the rubber stop listed by Hoyt?
> Where's does it go, how does it work?
> I don't see the holes for a peg either and I was taken into consideration they took this into the design from the X3.
> ...


The rubber stop is just a small rubber tube that slides into the draw stop that can be removed if you want a firmer back wall.


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## zambezi (Jul 14, 2006)

nestly said:


> I don't specifically recall seeing it on the DCX I shot, but I assume it's similar to what Hoyt has used in the past (such as the Z5 cam)


That is correct.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

zambezi said:


> The rubber stop is just a small rubber tube that slides into the draw stop that can be removed if you want a firmer back wall.


Does the top can have a groove as the stop or another post like the bottom?

Sent via mobile


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## zambezi (Jul 14, 2006)

dajogejr said:


> Does the top can have a groove as the stop or another post like the bottom?
> 
> Sent via mobile


Top cam has a groove.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

nestly said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, that's not the issue, I do not agree that the bow should labeled as Used like some are saying it is because it was fired in the shop , like most others hanging on the rack.
> ...


 i dont know why but it is- , I ( and you) have to pay a New price for all those new 2020 bows on the rack that are not sealed in a box, but I dont mind it, shop owners have enough to deal with now.


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

zambezi said:


> Top cam has a groove.


Thanks Zam.

Tally (OP) sorry for the misinformation, I simply assumed the DCX had similar traits as the can before it, X3.
Totally my bad.

Would like to hear how this turns out for the OP.
Mine will be here any day and I'm looking forward to tuning and shooting it.


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## Drkoster (Sep 10, 2016)

It's not a used bow. People shoot them all the time in the shop when trying one out and there are no "demo" bows. I recommend having the shop owner call the Hoyt rep to get things straightened out. They wouldn't do that to one of their pro-shooters. They shouldn't do it to a serious competitor or any archer for that matter.


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## OQuin (Nov 29, 2017)

lees said:


> Because it was setup and shot. You only need to put one arrow through it to turn it into a used bow.


Does this apply to floor models that they use for customers to try out bows?


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## Dafis (Jul 12, 2009)

My local Mathews/Hoyt/PSE dealer has a bag in which you had to shoot over the minnow tank, he has since moved the minnow tank for ease of access too the bag...I drive 50 miles for better service...


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## Lisavan (Nov 1, 2019)

So... you're telling me that Hoyt doesn't test fire their bows before they send them out to the customer?? If they do, then why don't they consider those bows used before they leave their warehouse? That's ridiculous, cars don't depreciate that fast driving off the lot! I had been considering Hoyt for new bow, but I'm thinking Elite is the way I'm going now. No one selling a product should expect someone to buy something they can't shoot first to see if it works for them. Thats plain insanity. You can test drive a car without this issue. A bow!!?? Seriously? Where the heck is basic common sense these days? I would never try to sell a product that a customer can try before purchase. That's just ethical rape. If one can test drive a car, that depreciated less than a bow apparently, what the heck are bow manufacturer'ers saying? That these things are so brittle and wear so fast that one arrow off the damn thing makes it that much more depreciated? Why would anyone want to spend $2k for a piece of metal with strings that can't take at least a hundred rounds before it "depreciates". That's the average break in on a new bow. I'm sorry but I'll find a company who knows how to value their product ACCORDING to CUSTOMER needs. I won't drive off a lot with a $30k car without driving it first, I sure as hell am not going to buy a bow that I can't test first. Period. Hoyt makes its money off political bs money exchange via competitions. It doesn't make its money from its product... that's how you know. Pathetic and shame on the bow industry if that's how they value their products. People have to shoot them or they mean nothing. Shaking my head...

buttrflygrl


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Lisavan said:


> So... you're telling me that Hoyt doesn't test fire their bows before they send them out to the customer?? If they do, then why don't they consider those bows used before they leave their warehouse? That's ridiculous, cars don't depreciate that fast driving off the lot! I had been considering Hoyt for new bow, but I'm thinking Elite is the way I'm going now. No one selling a product should expect someone to buy something they can't shoot first to see if it works for them. Thats plain insanity. You can test drive a car without this issue. A bow!!?? Seriously? Where the heck is basic common sense these days? I would never try to sell a product that a customer can try before purchase. That's just ethical rape. If one can test drive a car, that depreciated less than a bow apparently, what the heck are bow manufacturer'ers saying? That these things are so brittle and wear so fast that one arrow off the damn thing makes it that much more depreciated? Why would anyone want to spend $2k for a piece of metal with strings that can't take at least a hundred rounds before it "depreciates". That's the average break in on a new bow. I'm sorry but I'll find a company who knows how to value their product ACCORDING to CUSTOMER needs. I won't drive off a lot with a $30k car without driving it first, I sure as hell am not going to buy a bow that I can't test first. Period. Hoyt makes its money off political bs money exchange via competitions. It doesn't make its money from its product... that's how you know. Pathetic and shame on the bow industry if that's how they value their products. People have to shoot them or they mean nothing. Shaking my head...
> 
> buttrflygrl


I suspect you didn't read the whole thread. There's a huge difference between what dealers consider "used" and what the manufacturer does. Try to custom order a car from the manufacturer of your choice then after taking delivery of it, and driving it around some, try to return that car to the manufacturer for a full refund. Not gonna happen. Dealers will no doubt try to resell that car as "new", and exchange it with other dealers that will sell it as "new", but the factory isn't taking back a custom build car... the same way bow manufacturers wont accept return on custom built bows.


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## TiogaCB (Nov 13, 2016)

get a Matthews....I switched a few years ago from Hoyt and can't imagine going back!


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

Been busy so I haven't had a chance to post but here's update on bow. My Dealer worked on the Invicta last Monday. I went in and shot the bow and it definitely felt much better. He measured the axle to axle and brace height while I looked on and then showed me the 2020 Hoyt tune charts. The bow matched Hoyt's specifications exactly. The bow is pulling 60.4 lbs at 26"(verified with a draw board) The let off is still less than I expected coming in at approximately 69% but way better than when it was originally taken out of the box. The bow now has a very slight valley at full draw. The only thing that seems a little out of the norm is the bows limbs are not maxed out. They're backed out 3 full turns. I asked about that and my dealer told me his priority was keeping the bow at 60 lbs and getting as much let off as possible while matching the tune charts. He said taking the turns out of the limbs was necessary to achieve those results. He knew I did not want to pull more than 60 lbs draw weight and I wanted as much let off as could reasonably be expected. I now think I will like the bow if it's not to aggressive and since I've been shooting fuel cams it should be fine.

All that being said I will need to wait a little longer to shoot the bow as it's going back to Hoyt. The dealer, wanting to make sure he'd done everything possible said he spoke to the Hoyt technicians providing additional information about bow. After their discussions Hoyt asked to have the bow sent back. My dealer said he thinks Hoyt wants to do their due diligence and make sure the bow is indeed good to go. He said it was my call. I thought about not sending it back because it does feel much better but I've never owned a Hoyt bow where the limbs were not maxed out to achieve the stated max poundage. I think going back to Hoyt will at least give me piece of mind that the limbs are the correct deflection. A few more weeks not shooting the bow really does not matter plus Hoyt is paying the shipping both ways. Once it comes back I will wrap this thread up.


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## bmook019 (Jan 31, 2017)

Tallybowman said:


> Been busy so I haven't had a chance to post but here's update on bow. My Dealer worked on the Invicta last Monday. I went in and shot the bow and it definitely felt much better. He measured the axle to axle and brace height while I looked on and then showed me the 2020 Hoyt tune charts. The bow matched Hoyt's specifications exactly. The bow is pulling 60.4 lbs at 26"(verified with a draw board) The let off is still less than I expected coming in at approximately 69% but way better than when it was originally taken out of the box. The bow now has a very slight valley at full draw. The only thing that seems a little out of the norm is the bows limbs are not maxed out. They're backed out 3 full turns. I asked about that and my dealer told me his priority was keeping the bow at 60 lbs and getting as much let off as possible while matching the tune charts. He said taking the turns out of the limbs was necessary to achieve those results. He knew I did not want to pull more than 60 lbs draw weight and I wanted as much let off as could reasonably be expected. I now think I will like the bow if it's not to aggressive and since I've been shooting fuel cams it should be fine.
> 
> All that being said I will need to wait a little longer to shoot the bow as it's going back to Hoyt. The dealer, wanting to make sure he'd done everything possible said he spoke to the Hoyt technicians providing additional information about bow. After their discussions Hoyt asked to have the bow sent back. My dealer said he thinks Hoyt wants to do their due diligence and make sure the bow is indeed good to go. He said it was my call. I thought about not sending it back because it does feel much better but I've never owned a Hoyt bow where the limbs were not maxed out to achieve the stated max poundage. I think going back to Hoyt will at least give me piece of mind that the limbs are the correct deflection. A few more weeks not shooting the bow really does not matter plus Hoyt is paying the shipping both ways. Once it comes back I will wrap this thread up.


From what you just said, it sounds like it has 65 percent mods. Sounds like the dealer had to twist the cables to get more valley and that increases the peak weight. This would also explain only gaining 4 percent more let off.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I think it's likely the string and cables (and tune charts) are incorrect. Making peak weight 3 turns out is not normal. Either way, sending it back for them to check is the right call if no resolution was found on the phone. It should be near 60pounds maxed, and also near 75% letoff, and I'm sure it will be once they figure out what's not right. Sorry it was not right the first time.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

nestly said:


> I think it's likely the string and cables (and tune charts) are incorrect. Making peak weight 3 turns out is not normal. Either way, sending it back for them to check is the right call if no resolution was found on the phone. It should be near 60pounds maxed, and also near 75% letoff, and I'm sure it will be once they figure out what's not right. Sorry it was not right the first time.


It is normal. All of hoyts bows the last couple years have been coming in 3-4lbs hot when strings are built to ‘factory specs’. Most of the recent Hoyt bows require cables built 1/8th to 3/16 longer than ‘spec’ to get a true 50/60/70lbs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Tallybowman said:


> ...... The only thing that seems a little out of the norm is the bows limbs are not maxed out. They're backed out *3 full turns*.





jmann28 said:


> It is normal. All of hoyts bows the last couple years have been coming in *3-4lbs* hot when strings are built to ‘factory specs’. Most of the recent Hoyt bows require cables built 1/8th to 3/16 longer than ‘spec’ to get a true 50/60/70lbs.


3-4 pounds, yeah, that's normal.... Limb bolts backed out 3 full turns to make peak weight is outside of normal range, IMO


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

nestly said:


> 3-4 pounds, yeah, that's normal.... Limb bolts backed out 3 full turns to make peak weight is outside of normal range, IMO


They all come in 3-4 lbs heavy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

Lisavan said:


> So... you're telling me that Hoyt doesn't test fire their bows before they send them out to the customer?? If they do, then why don't they consider those bows used before they leave their warehouse? That's ridiculous, cars don't depreciate that fast driving off the lot! I had been considering Hoyt for new bow, but I'm thinking Elite is the way I'm going now. No one selling a product should expect someone to buy something they can't shoot first to see if it works for them. Thats plain insanity. You can test drive a car without this issue. A bow!!?? Seriously? Where the heck is basic common sense these days? I would never try to sell a product that a customer can try before purchase. That's just ethical rape. If one can test drive a car, that depreciated less than a bow apparently, what the heck are bow manufacturer'ers saying? That these things are so brittle and wear so fast that one arrow off the damn thing makes it that much more depreciated? Why would anyone want to spend $2k for a piece of metal with strings that can't take at least a hundred rounds before it "depreciates". That's the average break in on a new bow. I'm sorry but I'll find a company who knows how to value their product ACCORDING to CUSTOMER needs. I won't drive off a lot with a $30k car without driving it first, I sure as hell am not going to buy a bow that I can't test first. Period. Hoyt makes its money off political bs money exchange via competitions. It doesn't make its money from its product... that's how you know. Pathetic and shame on the bow industry if that's how they value their products. People have to shoot them or they mean nothing. Shaking my head...
> 
> buttrflygrl


 see, women do know best lol.


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## tsimmons (Feb 19, 2006)

Did 
they check the deflection on the limbs. Just a thought.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Lisavan said:


> So... you're telling me that Hoyt doesn't test fire their bows before they send them out to the customer?? If they do, then why don't they consider those bows used before they leave their warehouse? That's ridiculous, cars don't depreciate that fast driving off the lot! I had been considering Hoyt for new bow, but I'm thinking Elite is the way I'm going now. No one selling a product should expect someone to buy something they can't shoot first to see if it works for them. Thats plain insanity. You can test drive a car without this issue. A bow!!?? Seriously? Where the heck is basic common sense these days? I would never try to sell a product that a customer can try before purchase. That's just ethical rape. If one can test drive a car, that depreciated less than a bow apparently, what the heck are bow manufacturer'ers saying? That these things are so brittle and wear so fast that one arrow off the damn thing makes it that much more depreciated? Why would anyone want to spend $2k for a piece of metal with strings that can't take at least a hundred rounds before it "depreciates". That's the average break in on a new bow. I'm sorry but I'll find a company who knows how to value their product ACCORDING to CUSTOMER needs. I won't drive off a lot with a $30k car without driving it first, I sure as hell am not going to buy a bow that I can't test first. Period. Hoyt makes its money off political bs money exchange via competitions. It doesn't make its money from its product... that's how you know. Pathetic and shame on the bow industry if that's how they value their products. People have to shoot them or they mean nothing. Shaking my head...
> 
> buttrflygrl




Do you truly believe Hoyt, or any other company, actually mounts a rest and installs a loop on each of the thousands of bows they ship each year? 

And the $30k car off the lot isn't an apt analogy in the OP's case, based on the thread the bow wasn't bought off the floor, it was special ordered; and we're not talking abou the dealer taking the bow back, we're talking about Hoyt... Hoyt [or any other company for the most part] won't even take the unboxed bows the dealers buy as inventory back- that's how eBay ends up with so many new old stock listings. Dealer shouldn't be stuck with taking back the special order either, it obviously wasn't a rig they considered when they placed their new year stock. 

Now, it appears that specs weren't as advertised or what the OP expected, and every effort should be taken to at least get the advertised specs- if that eventually means a replacement then that's what it should be, but the story isn't to that point yet.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

nestly said:


> 3-4 pounds, yeah, that's normal.... Limb bolts backed out 3 full turns to make peak weight is outside of normal range, IMO





jmann28 said:


> They all come in 3-4 lbs heavy.


OP never said what the bow maxs out at, and he never said anything about being 3 pounds heavy, he said it's at 60lbs when the limb bolts are backed out 3 turns. 3 turns on a limb bolt is not equal to 3 pounds so it doesn't matter whether it's normal for bows to max out 3-4 pounds above stated peak weight or not, it's NOT normal for bows to reach peak weight backed out 3 turns..


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## skidmor3 (Jan 28, 2015)

OP, check out the review from archery supplies on youtube of the invicta 37. He does most of the review thinking the bow has the svx cams while it has the new cams. Seems like he is experiencing the same feels as your bow.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

skidmor3 said:


> OP, check out the review from archery supplies on youtube of the invicta 37. He does most of the review thinking the bow has the svx cams while it has the new cams. Seems like he is experiencing the same feels as your bow.


Seems like a nice enough guy, but perhaps a bit short on technical knowledge. Not sure how he didn't notice the grey mods (65%) and lack of draw stops, clearly indicating that it's not the "fast cam"


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nestly said:


> Seems like a nice enough guy, but perhaps a bit short on technical knowledge. Not sure how he didn't notice the grey mods (65%) and lack of draw stops, clearly indicating that it's not the "fast cam"


I'm pretty sure Steven Hann isn't an actual Hoyt dealer and doesn't want to be - he's made a lot of somewhat amusing allusions to that in many of his other videos - so it's not surprising he's not familiar with them. OTOH, it's also strange that he's got a new one that he's selling to a customer - he picks up used ones from time to time but not brand new, so not sure what the deal is in this case.

I've heard this too, tho, about the spiral cam and its descendents, that it gives a harsh draw with a low letoff no matter what's inscribed on the mod or written on the box. I've not had a chance to try one in recent memory so I don't know from personal experience. 

He's pretty good with the bows he deals in like PSE, tho. 

But yes it's good this bow is finally going back to Hoyt, that'll get everything "normalized" once Hoyt actually takes a look and determines what's on it, etc....

lee.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

nestly said:


> OP never said what the bow maxs out at, and he never said anything about being 3 pounds heavy, he said it's at 60lbs when the limb bolts are backed out 3 turns. 3 turns on a limb bolt is not equal to 3 pounds so it doesn't matter whether it's normal for bows to max out 3-4 pounds above stated peak weight or not, it's NOT normal for bows to reach peak weight backed out 3 turns..


They all come in 3-4 lbs heavy. If he’s saying that it needs to be backed out 3 turns to reach ‘peak weight’ then he’s assuming a 60lb bow should max out at exactly 60lbs. Which in reality maybe that’s how it should be, but it isn’t 

Backing the bow out 3 turns would be 4 lbs of draw weight 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jmann28 said:


> They all come in 3-4 lbs heavy. If he’s saying that it needs to be backed out 3 turns to reach ‘peak weight’ then he’s assuming a 60lb bow should max out at exactly 60lbs. Which in reality maybe that’s how it should be, but it isn’t
> 
> Backing the bow out 3 turns would be 4 lbs of draw weight
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Smells like he boosted the draw weight, to get lower holding weight (more valley). Then, to get back down to 60 lbs draw weight, he took turns out of the limb bolts.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

jmann28 said:


> They all come in 3-4 lbs heavy. If he’s saying that it needs to be backed out 3 turns to reach ‘peak weight’ then he’s assuming a 60lb bow should max out at exactly 60lbs. Which in reality maybe that’s how it should be, but it isn’t
> 
> Backing the bow out 3 turns would be 4 lbs of draw weight


Any modern Hoyt will drop way more than 4 pounds for 3 turns, they're typically 2-3 pounds *per turn*.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

nestly said:


> Any modern Hoyt will drop way more than 4 pounds for 3 turns, they're typically 2-3 pounds *per turn*.


They’re less than 2 per turn and don’t lose as much with each full turn. 3 full turns would probably just get over 4 lbs 


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## dnv23 (Feb 8, 2011)

nestly said:


> Any modern Hoyt will drop way more than 4 pounds for 3 turns, they're typically 2-3 pounds *per turn*.


I'm pretty sure jmann28 knows what the bow will do since he owns a Invicta. I know he has shot Hoyt target bows for years, builds string for his own bows as well as some friends bows which are VERY good strings BTW. Not to mention he is a very skilled archer/bow tuner. 

I've seen a couple bows for 2020 that only lose 1lb per 1 limb bolt rotation.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

dnv23 said:


> I'm pretty sure jmann28 knows what the bow will do since he owns a Invicta. I know he has shot Hoyt target bows for years, builds string for his own bows as well as some friends bows which are VERY good strings BTW. Not to mention he is a very skilled archer/bow tuner.
> 
> I've seen a couple bows for 2020 that only lose 1lb per 1 limb bolt rotation.


Who, me??


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## leomillan (Dec 27, 2013)

Kinda like a display model of anything on any store. If you buy the display model you typically get it at a discount even if it’s just been sitting on a shelf or display case. Seems as these larger bow companies should offer dealers a single display bow (at a reduced from full wholesale price) for every model they are going to market. The manufacturers can soak up the loss of revenue (in the spirit of marketing) much better than the individual ma and pa stores can. Customer service afterwards should be carried out to the fullest by the manufacturer for the life of the bow. Being the only owner of my current Mathews, I’ve had good CS even though someone mentioned above as not having the same experience..


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## Simplestman84 (Oct 22, 2019)

bucco921 said:


> As others have said, I'd be willing to bet this could easily be fixed. Also, did you actually hear Hoyt say this yourself?
> 
> I'm not a Hoyt fanboy, don't own one, but highly doubt that was really their response.


 You would be surprised. Had a different, but very similar experience with Hoyt myself last year and an RX three ultra that refused to tune. They aren’t afraid to have blunt horrible customer service directly to your face.


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

Simplestman84 said:


> You would be surprised. Had a different, but very similar experience with Hoyt myself last year and an RX three ultra that refused to tune. They aren’t afraid to have blunt horrible customer service directly to your face.


I’ve been lucky with my Hoyt and Bowtech. While I don’t personally own a Mathews, I can tell you that Mathews is very responsive to issues. Their dealer reps are very active in solving problems. It still appears that the manufacturer and dealer could have solved the issue for the OP


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

Tallybowman said:


> So I ordered a silver Hoyt Invicta 37 with DCX 75% let off cam. Bow was delivered in about 5 weeks. Went to store on a Friday afternoon to pick the bow up. Dealer took bow out of box measured specs and then put a hamskea rest and d-loop so i could shoot it. Store does not have a range so shooting into a bag is all that is available.
> 
> Before I shot the bow I examined it carefully. This bow is well built and looks rock solid. I am very impressed with the quality. The bow was set at 60.6lbs. It has the small cam as my draw length is 26". When I drew the bow back I noticed it was a very smooth pull but very stout. It has edgy back wall (I been shooting a higher let off bow so that may just be my perception). I shot the bow 4 times. It felt like the let off was not 75% The dealer took the bow and put it on his scale. The let off was measured between 65% - 67%. The dealer again made sure the specs were correct.
> 
> ...


After 194 comments, it would seem that Manufacturer would reach out to the OP to sort this out. Does anyone know if Manufactures checks AT postings? 


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## BobG88 (Mar 12, 2015)

bdimaggio said:


> After 194 comments, it would seem that Manufacturer would reach out to the OP to sort this out. Does anyone know if Manufactures checks AT postings?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Read post 173. Thanks, 

BG
Murfreesboro, TN


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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

BobG88 said:


> Read post 173. Thanks,
> 
> BG
> Murfreesboro, TN


That is great news for the OP. 


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## dajogejr (Dec 20, 2012)

I know this is an old thread, but thought I'd share my first hand experience as I just took delivery of my Invicta 40 yesterday.
Setup and tuned somewhat easy, I was surprised how many twists I took out of each cable to get it is spec.
I believe lower cable was about 10, upper about 8.
In the end, I got 50 to 50.5LB draw weight out of 50lb limbs. Holding weight is between 12.5 and 13lbs. The draw board I used has a scale in increments of .5 lbs.
The ATA measured dead on nuts (as dead on as you can get without using a micrometer) 40.5.
Took a solid 20 minutes or so to get the weight, let off and timing right, as I usually go no more than 2 twists at either end at a time.

Tally, sorry you had so much trouble and too bad...coming from a prevail this is a very, very nice shooting rig.
I have about 100 arrows through it, so I'm going to switch it from 3d setup to 27 series spot setup to compare it vs. my old prevails.
So far, I am really, really liking everything about this bow.


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## burls (Jan 15, 2008)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I'm surprised to hear this about PSE.... I've had nothing but good things to say about them!!!!



Same here


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## Pursuit5835 (Mar 4, 2018)

wowza


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## joon1911 (Nov 4, 2019)

Tallybowman,

I’ve read thru all 198 posts with a lot of interest. 

For frame of reference, I’m new to archery, having only shot a bow maybe a dozen times as a kid. Now in my 40s, my 12 year old son has been wanting to get into archery for a few years and when he decided to save for his first bow, I decided to also buy a bow so that we could learn together and hopefully my participation will help him keep interest up.

I think my relative ignorance in all things archery-related qualifies my observations as objective since I have no preconception as to what is normal and acceptable business practice for archery dealers or manufacturers

First off, by my estimation your dealer’s process with “special order” bows could have raised some red flags regarding the bow being out of spec prior to you shooting even 1 arrow if that process were more robust and thorough. 

Let’s assume that a bow manufacturer considers a bow non-returnable once it has been modified or used. We can get into semantics about whether this is reasonable or not, but this practice is fairly common for many types of products. The comparison I would give you is a firearm. You can’t test fire a pistol and then try to return it as new. You also can’t say change the factory sights to a different type of sight on an unfired & new pistol and get the manufacturer to accept a return since it is modified from factory spec, correct? I personally would consider the manufacturers rejection to the return of the firearm in either of the prior situations reasonable and healthy business practices for any manufacturer. 

I see the dealer’s decision to mount a rest and allow you to shoot even one arrow from the bow in a similar light to the above scenarios. Let me preface an alternate scenario which would be this: my dealer special orders me the latest greatest target pistol. He receives it, looks it over for defect, finds none and hands it to me. I dry-fire it to test the trigger pull and find it’s crappy, too heavy, out of spec, gritty & horrible. I’m terribly disappointed, let down by the hype & I decide that I want to return it, am willing to pay restocking fees, manufacturer takes it back because it is tangibly still new, and I’m happy to not have a gun that didn’t meet my expectations.

Let’s get back to my point about robust inspection process. I suspect your dealer knows the manufacturer considers modifying a special order bow or shooting it makes it non-returnable. Would you agree? You said in your first post that the dealer unboxed it, measured specs, then mounted a rest and handed it to you to shoot. 

My observation is that this was his first avoidable mistake. I would assume measuring specs would include measuring the draw weight (stated as 60.6 lbs.), draw length (26”), cam sync, let-off... here’s where we swerve off the path. Shouldn’t the dealer have noted the let-off at 22 lbs. was significantly off the specified 75%? This all could have been completed on a draw board with no mounted rest, no fired arrows. 

At that point, he could have handed the bow to you with no rest, no d-loop and you could have tested the draw cycle without firing the bow and thus rendering the special order bow non-returnable to the manufacturer. You could have noted the crappy let-off and valley and said no thank you, the dealer could have returned the bow and you could be done with the situation. Do you see any correlation to my dry-firing scenario above? 

You were thoroughly disappointed by an expensive bow that didn’t meet your expectations and felt totally let down. At that moment you didn’t want the bow so you felt it should be reasonable to return. But the problem is the bow is now doubly non-returnable by the dealer’s error. It’s been modified by adding a d-loop and mounting a rest & it’s been fired.

If I can return to my alternate scenario. If instead of dry-firing the latest greatest target pistol, I took it out to their range and fired 4 rounds. I’ve now found out about the crappy trigger pull but is it reasonable for me to want the manufacturer to take a now gently used pistol back? Probably not, but it would be reasonable to expect that that the manufacturer could make the trigger pull not crappy & heavy, yes?

If you accept my observations above as valid, now you are at the same point in my alternate scenario as with your Invicta. You dealer has done what he can to make the bow meet your expectations. Now he wants Hoyt’s experts to double check his work and make sure there isn’t anything else to be done. All this seems to support your opinion that he is a.) knowledgeable, b.) trustworthy, c.) honest, d.) humble enough to accept expert assistance and e.) honorable as he is looking out for your best interest. 

I hope that Hoyt finds that something is tangibly wrong with the bow and you & the dealer are given the option to return the bow to Hoyt. If that’s not the case and Hoyt sends the bow back to the dealer consider this.

I would argue that in the end, when the bow comes back from Hoyt, if it still does not meet with your expectations you should consider allowing you dealer to refund your payment to you in full. It was his responsibility to ensure the bow was in spec prior to modifying or shooting. He’s the Pro in this situation and he should have been thorough prior to you shooting it. He failed to note the let-off discrepancy, thus he’s ultimately responsible for the bow being non-returnable. I can sense your loyalty, so if it makes you feel better offer to give the dealer the restocking fee and take a partial refund. He’ll be able to eventually find a new home for the bow and probably not lose his shirt in the deal. If I were in the dealer’s shoes either of these solutions would be acceptable. 

If I recall correctly, he’s already offered to refund your payment regardless, so this seems feasible. If I’ve read anything wrong about your interaction with the dealer, well I wasn’t there and it’s all just my opinion anyway.

Don’t let your loyalty to the dealer cloud your judgement about ultimate responsibility. I hope this all ends in your favor, Tallybowman! Good luck and let me know how it turns out?


Sorry that this turned into such a ramble. 

Since I’m already way longer into the post than I intended, thanks to Nuts&Bolts for such detailed information on tuning strings and cables. For one as ignorant of bow technology as myself, it was enlightening. 

Other than that, man oh man, can’t we all just be a bit more civil with each other? The catty snarkiness of some of the previous posts is really embarrassing, guys & gals.




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## bdimaggio (Dec 28, 2017)

joon1911 said:


> Tallybowman,
> 
> I’ve read thru all 198 posts with a lot of interest.
> 
> ...


Too long to read - I think the issue was solved 


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

dajogejr said:


> I know this is an old thread, but thought I'd share my first hand experience as I just took delivery of my Invicta 40 yesterday.
> Setup and tuned somewhat easy, I was surprised how many twists I took out of each cable to get it is spec.
> I believe lower cable was about 10, upper about 8.
> In the end, I got 50 to 50.5LB draw weight out of 50lb limbs. Holding weight is between 12.5 and 13lbs. The draw board I used has a scale in increments of .5 lbs.
> ...


Not to pile on but... SMH here. Now, go ahead and take 4 turns out of each limb bolt - assume you need to drop your poundage for a tuning or injury reason. Or maybe you're just a little overbowed and want a little more comfortably low peak weight. All perfectly acceptable reasons to do that. Now, get out the micromenter and measure your ATA and brace height. Oh No! What happened? hmm... the ATA is still pretty close but the brace height... OMG!..... All that work with the micrometer has been undone. Is the bow bad? Do you try to RTM?

Hint: not no, but heck no you don't RTM or sell or throw it away. You go shoot your still-perfectly-good bow. The point being - there are two measurements that you must *never *make on your compound bow *except* for entertainment purposes: those are a) your brace height and b) your ATA. Threads like this one are the result when you try to get your new or used compound bow's brace height and ATA "back in spec". Please, for your own sanity, do not do this. Just Say No to brace height and ATA factory specs. 

I won't go into detail about all the variables that affect these, particularly brace height, but among them are the limb bolt positions and cam sizes. These cause ATA and BH to vary over a considerable range, especially on bows like Hoyt's target bows, where there is a variety of cam sizes available. 

Again, you will end up in the Rubber Room if you try to keep these "in spec". The only way to avoid the Rubber Room here is to just simply not measure these in the first place, and just trust that your bow was correctly designed and built by its maker.

For example, my last two hoyts, both bought new, were two hoyt tributes. Long story short, I ended up with one with the #2 wheels on it, the other the #3 wheels. Even with my own strings on each, which I made very carefully to within 1/16" of factory lengths, the ATA on the #2 model was, IIRC, 44.5" - 1/2" short of "factory specs". The #3 wheel model was right at 46" ata, an inch long of "factory spec". The brace height was even more catastrophically "out of spec": it varied nearly an inch from full poundage to minimum poundage (8 turns on the limb bolts) on both bows.

Both bows shot very well though both bows were an equal nightmare to tune for various design reasons. They're long gone and presumed dead now and I will miss them. But I only measured ATA and BH enough times to remember them well enough to report them here. And to also report that neither dimension made any difference in the shootability of the bows.

Please guys, leave your cables alone except to change your cam timing for tuning or creep-tuning reasons. It's easier to just not measure ATA and BH and go shoot - much less stress, wasted time and money, and more time shooting and enjoying your perfectly good bow.

That's all apart from the prior discussion about the dealer and whether he was incompetent and so on, which I've already commented on.

Finally, I have a pse supra focus xl sitting on the stand here in my room, which I also have no idea what it's ATA or brace height is. Both are currently approved by the TLAR method (That Looks About Right) and I've been shooting and enjoying it for a few weeks now. It has problems, but none of them are related in any way to whatever the ATA and BH measurements are. I've been shooting since the late 80s and I can't recall ever being bothered by an "out of spec" ATA or brace height on any other bow in that time either. 

As for letoff, that's somewhat more of a legitimate thing to measure if you think it's too high or low. Unfortunately, to change that, if it's not modifiable on the cams, you're going to have to let the ATA and/or BH go "out of spec" in one form or other..... 

So there you go.... You really can't win here..... Life bites and then you die, so go tune, and then shoot, your bow and enjoy.

Anyway, that's my story on that and I'm sticking to it.

lee.


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## joon1911 (Nov 4, 2019)

bdimaggio said:


> Too long to read - I think the issue was solved
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for even trying. I know it was a long post, really only trying to give the OP a different perspective. 

Not too many people were responding to the question he was asking. Instead seems like many people were trying to vilify him or his dealer and getting his bow functionally tuned up. Respectfully, that wasn’t what his post was asking feedback about.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

joon1911 said:


> Thanks for even trying. I know it was a long post, really only trying to give the OP a different perspective.
> 
> Not too many people were responding to the question he was asking. Instead seems like many people were trying to vilify him or his dealer and getting his bow functionally tuned up. Respectfully, that wasn’t what his post was asking feedback about.
> 
> ...


Your are correct. Most people never commented on my actual question. They just wanted to bash me or the dealer and profess how much they know about bows. 

The bow finally came back from Hoyt. They had it in their factory for over a month. The dealer called me and told me the bow was in. I asked him to wait until I arrived before he opened the box as I wanted to be able to document everything before the bow was removed. When I got to his store we opened the box. In the box was a document from Hoyt. The document listed the specifications when the bow was received. It read draw weight 60.2 lbs draw length 26". Nothing else was noted. Document stated specifications after technicians worked on the bow, draw weight 60.4 lbs, draw length 26" actual let off 69% effective let off 72%. Speed was 284 feet per second using customers arrows.(I provided them 2 of my black eagle arrows) The document stated the bow was within factory specifications.

After reading the note from Hoyt I pulled the bow back and immediately felt it was pulling more than 60 lbs. We measured the draw weight using 3 different scales. The range was between 64.8-65.4 lbs. We measured the draw length using the dealers draw board, it measured 26". We measured let off using 3 different scales hooked to his draw board so we could be as precise as possible. Ranges in let off were between 69% and 71%. We shot the bow through his chronograph and it was shooting 280 feet per second. We shot it several time and the speed never changed.

We reduced the poundage to approximately 60 lbs (let out about 3 full turns on the limbs) and shot through the chronograph again. Speed was 269 feet per second 3 different times shooting the same arrow provided to Hoyt.(the arrow came out of the bow box) 

I bought a bow based on specifications advertised by Hoyt. The bow looks great, has little to no vibration, has an awesome grip system and is probably very accurate. However it is not easy for me to shoot. The 3 main things I wanted was speed at least 280 feet per second, approximately 75% let off and 60 lbs or less draw weight. I thought this bow would provide all 3, plus with the longer brace height it would be more forgiving and therefore more accurate than my current bow(s). Bow did not give me what I wanted, period.

Now all the super tuners can tell me to twist this string or untwist that string or that the dealer doesn't know what he is doing but the fact remains that even after Hoyt worked on the bow they only achieved 69% actual let off and 72% effective let off.(not really sure what the difference is and I did not ask the dealer)

I don't know what scale they used to measure draw weight but the bow was way over 60 lbs when it was removed from the box and only shot 280 feet per second at the higher poundage. For known distance shooters or indoor shooters I can see where this bow could be a good shooter but even if I shot indoors the let off is still not what I want.

Companies need to be held accountable if the provide misleading information especially at today's prices, but unfortunately we as consumers don't have much recourse. Lessons learned don't buy a new bow unless you can shoot one first.


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep...Looks like Hoyt gives themselves an out with "Within Factory Specifications"


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## joon1911 (Nov 4, 2019)

Tallybowman said:


> Your are correct. Most people never commented on my actual question. They just wanted to bash me or the dealer and profess how much they know about bows.
> 
> Companies need to be held accountable if the provide misleading information especially at today's prices, but unfortunately we as consumers don't have much recourse. Lessons learned don't buy a new bow unless you can shoot one first.


Sorry to hear about the less than satisfactory resolution from Hoyt. It seem a lose, lose, lose situation for everyone. You’re left with a distasteful memory. Your dealer should not get a free pass, though. The dealer should own some culpability in the situation for not having better processes in place to protect your ability to return the bow that substantially misses the mark in advertised specs. Lastly, Hoyt has lost your good will.

I do understand Hoyt’s initial and final decision but that is the sort of direction given by middle management and lacks forward vision. This type of customer service is more than a bit cowardly and truly lacking in the spirit of “Customer Service”. I have worked in many service-oriented fields and have dealt with many leadership teams that have the same mentality. What these middle managers don’t realize is that their company is experiencing the “death of a thousand cuts” with this mentality. If they don’t find a better vision for the future, Hoyt will have some rocky days ahead when hundreds of previously loyal customers buy a different manufacturer’s bow because of poor experiences such as yours. 

Best of luck selling the bow if you decide not to let your dealer take responsibility. Thanks for sharing your lesson learned. I’ll take it to heart for the future. 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Tallybowman said:


> .... The 3 main things I wanted was speed at least 280 feet per second, approximately 75% let off and 60 lbs or less draw weight. I thought this bow would provide all 3, plus with the longer brace height it would be more forgiving and therefore more accurate than my current bow(s). Bow did not give me what I wanted, period.


1) if you expected a bow rated at 324 (Invicta37 DCX) to shoot above 280FPS at 60lbs and 26" DL, that's on you for not doing your homework. None of the bow manufacturers list actual speeds 4 inches and 10 pounds under their test specifications, and simply checking any of the speed calculators/estimators would have told you that bow wasn't likely to get 280 at 26". Not the manufactures fault.

2) Advertised letoff percentage is not precise or consistent throughout the entire range of draw weights and draw lengths for a particular model regardless of brand straight out of the box. I would consider +/- 3% perfectly normal, and +/- 5% not unusual. A decent tech/tuner could get that 3-5% back. 3-5% letoff variation from advertised is not unreasonable.

3) By your account 3 turns reduced the poundage 5lbs to a peak of 60lbs. You can go up to 8 turns on a Hoyt Target bow, so that bow is WELL within the draw weight range you wanted. Complaining that it doesn't meet your 60lb criteria is indicative that you're likely suffering from buyers remorse and grasping for reasons to justify your remorse.... IMO. 

I wasn't entirely happy with my Invicta37 DCX right out of the box either, but just like every other bow I've owned, now that I've got it mostly adjusted the way I like, I have no doubt I'll shoot it just as well or better than anything I've ever owned.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Agree with nestly. Unfortunately, I don't see enough basis to condemn the bow either. There may be somewhat of a basis to blame the shop for certain things, but at that price point and that level of bow in the Hoyt lineup - basically top of the line - it's reasonable to expect the customer to have at least some basic ideas about what's critical to have on a bow and what isn't.

An ATA measurement with a micrometer and even a BH within 1/2" of factory specs is definitely not a critical measurement and not required in any way at all to hit the target.

As for letoff, that's actually the least of your worries when it comes to your draw cycle. DL as well as letoff adjustments significantly change the profile of the cam and the draw cycle literally can become unrecognizeable depending on how much adjustmet you make. 

Letoff is another measurement that I also recommend that no one actually make. Peak weight is quite a bit more important, though, and I share the concern about the bow making peak weight at 3 turns out. Though that's easily adjusted with the cables; adjusting cable length is not unusual and definitely is a garden-variety, user-configurable adjustment that a manufacturer can certainly expect a customer of a high-end bow to know something about and be willing to do.

That said, on PSE's for example, where the limbs are a matched set only, variation in poundage between sets of limbs can be pretty significant. My old red pse supra max measured 2 to 3 lbs higher in full peak weight than the blue one, simply due to the different sets of limbs on each. That was with my own strings made to within 1/16" of factory lengths. But that's what they make limb bolts for.

Anyway, like I said there's stuff that's critical and there's stuff that's not. It can be really expensive and a lot of shooting time wasted if these things get confused....

lee.


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## Ruben 1969 (Feb 10, 2017)

Do what Dudley did.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Ruben 1969 said:


> Do what Dudley did.


Sell out?

J/K, I hope it all works out for Dud.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

nestly said:


> 1) if you expected a bow rated at 324 (Invicta37 DCX) to shoot above 280FPS at 60lbs and 26" DL, that's on you for not doing your homework. None of the bow manufacturers list actual speeds 4 inches and 10 pounds under their test specifications, and simply checking any of the speed calculators/estimators would have told you that bow wasn't likely to get 280 at 26". Not the manufactures fault.
> 
> 2) Advertised letoff percentage is not precise or consistent throughout the entire range of draw weights and draw lengths for a particular model regardless of brand straight out of the box. I would consider +/- 3% perfectly normal, and +/- 5% not unusual. A decent tech/tuner could get that 3-5% back. 3-5% letoff variation from advertised is not unreasonable.
> 
> ...


So this thread was started because of Hoyt's response to my request to send the bow back. I never ask anyone for an response other than that. The only buyers remorse I have it spending a ton of money on a bow that does not meet my expectations. 

You sound like a Hoyt fan boy whose mad because someone called Hoyt out. I never said the bow wouldn't go to 60 lbs, what I said was that at 60lbs it shot 269 through the chronograph. I sent the bow back to Hoyt and they did not get 75% let off out of the cam so based on you're comment I guess their technicians must not be decent. O

Finally, my 2011 Alpha Elite at 59 lbs, 75% let off shoot and 26" draw length shoots 14 feet per second faster than the Invicta at 283. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a $1800 bow with 2020 technology to be at least equal to the 2011 model.

As a consumer who could not shoot the bow before purchasing I certainly don't think its unreasonable to expect the bow the perform as advertised.


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## montanarancher (Nov 12, 2012)

Tallybowman said:


> So this thread was started because of Hoyt's response to my request to send the bow back. I never ask anyone for an response other than that. The only buyers remorse I have it spending a ton of money on a bow that does not meet my expectations.
> 
> 
> I think by definition that is "buyer's remorse".
> ...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Tallybowman said:


> So this thread was started because of Hoyt's response to my request to send the bow back. I never ask anyone for an response other than that. The only buyers remorse I have it spending a ton of money on a bow that does not meet my expectations.
> 
> You sound like a Hoyt fan boy whose mad because someone called Hoyt out.


I already weighed in on the subject of bow companies not being amenable to the idea of "restocking" a custom ordered bow that had been unboxed, had accesories installed, and had been shot based on the vague information they were provided at the time of the inital call (according to your own account) Those sentiments are not specific to any particular brand, the "Factory" is not taking that bow "back"... period. I would expect most dealers to make that right with the customer if they don't have the ability to adjust the bow to the customers preferences.





Tallybowman said:


> I never said the bow wouldn't go to 60 lbs, what I said was that at 60lbs it shot 269 through the chronograph. I sent the bow back to Hoyt and they did not get 75% let off out of the cam so based on you're comment I guess their technicians must not be decent.


Hoyt never said or suggested in any way that bow would shoot at or above 280FPS at 60lbs and 26" DL. You may have "expected" it to be faster, but that's because you made an incorrect assumption. None of the speed calculators nor any knowledgeable person would have told you that bow would do 280 or better at those specs, it's not the manufacturers responsibility to somehow make that bow faster it should be at those specs. 




Tallybowman said:


> Finally, my 2011 Alpha Elite at 59 lbs, 75% let off shoot and 26" draw length shoots 14 feet per second faster than the Invicta at 283. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a $1800 bow with 2020 technology to be at least equal to the 2011 model.


Again, your premise is flawed because bow prices are not based on FPS. You could have bought the "faster cam" for the same price but you ordered the slower option. Entirely on you, and if every person was allowed to return bows because they didn't produce as much speed as they "hoped" or as much as some freebie speed a calculator said it should, 3/4ths of all bows regardless of brand would get returned. 




Tallybowman said:


> As a consumer who could not shoot the bow before purchasing I certainly don't think its unreasonable to expect the bow the perform as advertised.


Your bow is well within spec for DL and DW, any assumptions about speed at 26" are yours alone as no manufacturer publishes speeds at your DL/DW, and actual letoff percentage is not outside of normal tolerances. The bow does not appear outside of spec, IMO so I wouldn't have expected Hoyt to respond any different than they did.


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## pnw-bowhunter (Dec 25, 2019)

Yeah it sounds like op learned the hard way that IBO speed is a theoretical max under perfect conditions. 

My mathews has an ibo of 330fps. The only way to get near that speed is with a super light arrow, 70lbs, perfect tune, and the longest draw cam possible. And even then you might not hit it.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

I was through with this thread but others keep bringing it back up. If someone’s going to keep calling me out then I’m going to respond. I have moved on bow has been sold.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Tallybowman said:


> Your are correct. Most people never commented on my actual question. They just wanted to bash me or the dealer and profess how much they know about bows.
> 
> The bow finally came back from Hoyt. They had it in their factory for over a month. The dealer called me and told me the bow was in. I asked him to wait until I arrived before he opened the box as I wanted to be able to document everything before the bow was removed. When I got to his store we opened the box. In the box was a document from Hoyt. The document listed the specifications when the bow was received. It read draw weight 60.2 lbs draw length 26". Nothing else was noted. Document stated specifications after technicians worked on the bow, draw weight 60.4 lbs, draw length 26" actual let off 69% effective let off 72%. Speed was 284 feet per second using customers arrows.(I provided them 2 of my black eagle arrows) The document stated the bow was within factory specifications.
> 
> ...


I know you sold the bow, but some additional info on actual vs effective let off....

Back in the day Pope & Young refused entry for any bow with more than 65% let off.....just about the time when the MFGs were coming out with higher let off or adjustable let off bows....so, said MFG went back to P&Y and said, hey, we need this changed.....

Actual let off is the amount of let off when measured at the bottom of the valley. For bows with adjustable DL modules the module has to be in the middle DL setting, although in theory actual let off shouldn't change at all, but, that is the "standard" for measurement.
Effective let off is the let off at full draw, basically what is on the fingers or release at full draw.

Why the difference? When you look at the draw force curve you will notice the DW drops down into the valley and then hooks back up some at full draw. In the bottom of the valley is actual, at the end of the draw is effective. Actual let off will vary wildly based upon the cams, how deep the valley is, whether there are DL modules on the cam, various cam sizes within a cam family, how hard the bow is pulled into the stops, etc, etc, etc. This is why most MFG advertise let off % based upon the actual let off at the bottom of the valley, and not the effective......the 72% actual is within the margin of error provided by the "standard".

Long Valley with a short increase in holding weight at full draw, the bow will feel closer to the actual let off advertised. It will also be less "jumpy" if you relax some at full draw.
Short Valley with a larger increase in holding weight at full draw, the bow will feel "heavier" at full draw than the advertised let off....it will also sometimes be referred to as a cam that wants to jump if you relax a tad at full draw....the original Spiral cam had this feel...

I wish all MFG would publish the actual force draw plot for their bows in the product literature......but...


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

reylamb said:


> I wish all MFG would publish the actual force draw plot for their bows in the product literature......but...


Heh. Great post.
In saying that, look at all the confusion that even a letoff specification produces - this thread being a great example. Imagine what a nightmare the bow companies, their dealers and their customers would be in for if they tried to publish draw force curves. If you think trying to figure out letoff is bad....... A similar idea I hear from time to time is the string angle spec., which would probably be just as confusing and nightmarish as draw force curves. Try to keep all that straight, your dealers trained and your customers in-the-know with a whole bunch of different mods and cams and models and.... Now I like the idea and you like the idea - I'd love that in fact - but most of us wouldn't know a draw force curve if it came up and bit us on the rear end; many of us wouldn't care to know and it wouldn't really affect their scores either.

Well, anyway you get the idea: if even the manufacturer can't keep a letoff specification straight, there's no way in hell we'll be able to do it. And sure enough we don't for the most part. Instead, we develop a general idea of "75% letoff" and expect a bow with 75% letoff on the tag to be in the 'hood of that general idea of "75% letoff". And not an absolute, precision measurement with 25 different variables surrounding it to verify that it's exactly whatever that 75% would occur at.

And don't even get me started (again) on ATA and brace height and getting out the micrometer on those dimensions. Any bow company should a) laugh and then b) proceed to tell you all the variables that can affect those dimensions. And what you should expect from the bow as a customer. 

And similarly for letoff, IBO speed and so on.

Yes of course it is possible to be let down by a bow, but even then you have to be circumspect about it. My supra focus xl is a good example. I admit it - I was kinda-sorta "expecting" an OMG awesome experience with it based on some of the reports out there about it. But so far my overall impression is kind of "meh". Turns out, at the end of the day it's just a bow. Now in saying that, I don't think that I can't do better and that there may be another bow I might like more, and even shoot possibly a little bit better. But the things about it that I'm finding to be goofy certainly aren't customer service issues and problems with the way PSE designed and executed the bow. It's the usual fitment/preference things that go along with any bow. And I could still rectify some of them with cable adjustments I believe, or even changing the shaft I'm shooting out of it.

So you have to always think of the big picture on these things. Modern compound bows are precision instruments, but then again, they're based on a weapon whose basic design is at least 20,000 years old. If not older. So we have to have expectations accordingly....

lee.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OMG. And limb deflection codes. What about frank-en-stein bows? Will that break my warranty (lol). and then, why publish string specs. That would just confuse all of us. DFC would be nice....would have to be grassroots. String angle at full draw, for whatever draw length module you have installed, again, another grassroots effort. Oh yeah. There is a grassroots spreadsheet for limb deflection codes and cam and draw weight...factory installed and franken-stein versions (non-standard hoyt cam on a hoyt bow).


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Tallybowman said:


> I was through with this thread but others keep bringing it back up. If someone’s going to keep calling me out then I’m going to respond. I have moved on bow has been sold.


Did you buy another bow? If so, which one?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

nuts&bolts said:


> OMG. And limb deflection codes. What about frank-en-stein bows? Will that break my warranty (lol). and then, why publish string specs. That would just confuse all of us. DFC would be nice....would have to be grassroots. String angle at full draw, for whatever draw length module you have installed, again, another grassroots effort. Oh yeah. There is a grassroots spreadsheet for limb deflection codes and cam and draw weight...factory installed and franken-stein versions (non-standard hoyt cam on a hoyt bow).


I do agree that some basic information on draw cycle, even a rough graph, could be a definite nice-to-have. Especially for target bows which, 99.856% of the time, must be bought and paid in full and then a 4-6week wait before you can even draw it back, much less put an actual shaft through it. Or you have to go to Steven Hann's shop in Adelaide Australia - the only shop on the planet that I know of that actually stocks target bows and will allow you to shoot one before you have to buy it. Maybe Lancaster has them in their shop too, dunno.

String angle wouldn't be a bad idea either, though only a very few guys actually know the angle they require for a bow to fit them well. Probably fewer than that actually know what draw cycle they like looks like depicted on a graph. Even I have no idea what my ideal string angle is. And not much about draw cycle either for that matter.

For me, the only truly critical dimension is the draw length range and minimum peak weight. As long as the DL can be adjusted between 28" and 29, and the peak weight can be dropped to around 40lbs, I can probably shoot it well. That's about all that's really critical for me.

If I ever got to a better shooting level that stuff may become more stringent, but the chances of that are pretty low, so..... 

lee.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

fletched said:


> Did you buy another bow? If so, which one?




PSE, because after the announcement that's the way it's supposed to go, right?


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