# Beginner's English Longbow?



## Campbell91 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hello all,

I'm looking to buy a more primitive style longbow for target shooting. Do you know how the bows from these companies compare to one another?

woodbows.com bows
rudder bows
3 rivers archery primitive bows
kustom king archer tri lam ELB
barbones bows
crows head outfitters bows

They all sell english style longbows (which is what I'm looking for) in about the $100-$250 dollar range. It is very difficult to tell the difference between them from the pictures and descriptions alone. Has anyone here had experience with any of these companies and any advice on which would be the best for someone looking for a decent beginners target bow? Thanks!

P.S. I'm not interested in modern style or take down traditional bows from PSE, Martin etc...


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Where do you live? Do you have any previous archery experience? Do you have any woodworking experience? Are you wanting to shoot under any particular rule set BLBS, etc?

These questions will make a lot of sense after you answer them.

-Grant


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## Campbell91 (Apr 6, 2011)

I go to school in New York but I'm from Utah. I have no previous experience with archery or woodworking and I don't really want to get into bowmaking (I might consider getting a "you finish" bow that only requires some sanding and staining). I am not looking to shoot under any rules or in a competition, just in a backyard at a target.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I personally feel that your first ELB is a stepping stone, you will find you either really like it and start looking for more or not like it.

All of the cheap linen-backed red-oak ones probably come from the same place. I'd get the 30lbs one from woodbows, finish it with some wipe-on polyurethane and get to shooting!

Warning though: if you like shooting them you will eventually want to make them. Its not terribly hard and it adds a whole other dimension of satisfaction to archery.

-Grant


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## Campbell91 (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks for the advice. Is there an appreciable difference in performance between red oak and hickory, or even bamboo backed hickory, longbows, or would I probably not notice the difference at this stage?


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## Nam Nguyen (Jan 29, 2011)

*14 Dollar bow.*

Are you willing to take a little time and build a long bow. Costs relatively cheap.

I bought a straight grained PINE 1"x2"x6'. I know pine is a not a good bow wood but hell its cheap to experiment. Then for all tillering I used a small hand plane from lowes. String is B50 I made.

Total spent on this bow ($3 board + $10 hand plane + $0.50 string) about 14 dollars. And if you take a little time and care for tillering you can have a shooting bow in a few days.

Mine finished at around 40-45lbs at 28" and 71" nock to nock. I spent about 4-5 hours total on the bow but worked on it over a period of a week. I didn't want to rush tillering because it never ends well.

Technically its an ELB. The belly is rounded...not flat. I opted to see how elastic the pine was and it was surprising. The whole process was very exciting seeing what pine could do because many will say it will break unless made light weight.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Campbell91 said:


> Thanks for the advice. Is there an appreciable difference in performance between red oak and hickory, or even bamboo backed hickory, longbows, or would I probably not notice the difference at this stage?


Hickory is more tension strong and responds best to being kept in a dry area, not really good for NY or anywhere coastal.
Both woods have been successfully used to make the fastest self-bows in the world (flightbows). I'd go with the oak.

Honestly you wouldn't notice at this stage. Just get a bow under 30lbs and some arrows that shoot well from it (probably 25-30 spine depending on draw length). 
English bows aren't really known for their speed or smoothness, its not their nature.
I prefer when I make them from flexible, lightweight woods like yew. I absolutely love the feel of shooting a yew ELB or Holmegaard, fantastic!bows.

I would avoid any laminate that uses a heavy wood like Ipe in the core, Ipe works awesome for ELBs; but not on the back or in the core. Its a belly wood.

-Grant


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Do you want a cheap ELB or one you'll be happy with?

Most of the cheapo ELB style bows I've seen just beg to be redesigned. Some are trying to meet criteria for certain competitions, but frankly it comes at a high cost. Too high a cost to justify their cost, actually.

ELB's, or really just any long D bow (as that's what you're really buying, not a true ELB), are rather easy to make well if you apply the same rules that you would with any other higher-than-average performance selfbow/all wood bow. 

Heavier woods don't make for the best low weight ELB's. I love hickory, but I would never make a 72" D bow that only draws 50# or less. The outer limbs would be very heavy... and heavy limbs make for more hand shock and less speed. Personally, I'd look for a bow made from medium density wood (preferably ash or elm), around 66" nock to nock (for 27-29" draws) with very narrow tips (less than 3/8"). The resulting bow wouldn't need to be too wide across the handle to make it uncomfortable either, at most 1 1/4" if you're careful. Even a good one wouldn't run you much because they take so little time to make- especially with power tools. Even with hand tools it usually only takes me a few days of work (not counting dry time for the wood of course) to make something like that. If interested PM me. Even if you're not keep those points in mind as you look around.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

kegan said:


> competitions, but frankly it comes at a high cost. Too high a cost to justify their cost, actually.
> 
> ELB's, or really just any long D bow (as that's what you're really buying, not a true ELB), are rather easy to make well if you apply the same rules that you would with any other higher-than-average performance selfbow/all wood bow.


We probably should be more explicit about what a "D" longbow is. There are two different definitions. Traditionally (dare I use that word?) a "D" long bow refered to the cross section of the limb. Traditional English Longbows had a flat back (the part that faces away from the archer) and a curved belly, hence the "D" shape. For someone wishing to connect with a certain period of history or tradition of archery, from medieval times through Victorian target archery and beyond, a "D" cross section English longbow fits the bill. For modern competitions the British Longbow Society has rules that are considered the standard for English Longbow competitions.

Next, there is the idea of a long bow that *braces* to a "D" shape. Where the string forms the flat part, and the smooth curve of the bow forms the curved part of the "D". This is a way of defining a later form of longbow, the American Flat bow, that also includes ELBs. Bows that brace to "D" are more traditional in design than modern reflex-deflex longbows that do not brace to a D, but are more efficient than D braced longbows. D shaped bracing is critical only for IFFA longbow competition, AFIK, which is not very common in the US.

I think Kegan makes a good point about quality. You can get a cheap, machine roughed "longbow" out of red oak and backed with linen, but it won't be a great shooter. My theatrical troop bought one to fill out the ELBs we used for our Robin Hood production. It was ugly, but worked, more or less. It had a lot of string follow and very little cast. And the indifferent quality of the make took out some of the aesthetic pleasure of shooting a nice, traditional bow.

I can say, though, that I've shot some hickory ELB selfbows under 50# that had very little handshock. Maybe the secret is in the tillering :wink: But I also wouldn't go against a good bowyer's own recommendations for what he is good at making.


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## Campbell91 (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks a lot, I'll make sure to keep this advice in mind when looking around. I have absolutely no experience in woodworking, woodworking tools, a space to do it or interest in making a bow in the first place. I'm definitely looking to buy a finished or almost finished product that just requires sanding and staining. I was mostly looking to keep this bow at home in Utah and use it while I'm on vacation, so it should stay dry (I go to a military academy so I don't really have the permission/free time to pursue archery while at school).

Here are 3 "u-finish" style long bows of around the same price from woodbows (red oak), crowshead and rudder bows (both hickory) that I've sort of narrowed down my search to:

http://www.crowsheadoutfitters.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_37&products_id=566

http://www.woodbows.com/rcustom.html

https://rudderbowsarchery.com/shopp...ducts_id=464&zenid=7prt54jh5ossapiuffuk524b23

Any idea as to which one of these would be best for target shooting/which company is most reputable? Or would they probably all be about the same thing?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Whoops. I was refering to what selfbow builders refer to as D bows- a bow whose handle matches the limbs in cross section. This includes almost all Native bows (not the Sudbury) including the West coast short bows, Cherokee hunting bows, and many of super-long bows of South America (and Africa). The modern "D bow" refering to the non-D/R shape of Hill style bows, to me, is just an exercise in confusing everyone. They're straight bows. ELB's are D-section D bows. Anyway, sorry about that!

Warbow also makes a good point- different bowyers have different tricks and preferences. I have certain prejudices against some D bow handles and don't always shoot 10 grains per pound- meaning I spend more time carefully trimming my bows down to my liking. Other folks know they'll be using heavier arrows, or don't mind a little thump in the hand, or accept a little stacking for low handshock (whip tillered). 

The basic idea is that unless you go to someone who really knows these bows, like Bickerstaff (sp?), you'll be taking a shot in the dark. These bows aren't mainstream, so don't have to compete on the same level in terms of speed and low shock. If you're trying to save money on them by buying from a company... no matter where you get it from it'll be a cheap bow. You get what you pay for.


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## Campbell91 (Apr 6, 2011)

Are there mainstream, and thus competitive in terms of quality, primitive style longbows, or are all the mainstream bows going to be more of the modern style, like the PSE Sequoia?

I would like a Bickerstaffe of course, or even the cheaper (around 85 pounds) longbows from other British Bowyers like the entry level Steve Ralph's bows, but importing those bows will cost 100s of dollars with customs and extra long package requirements etc...do you know of a Bickerstaffe of the United States so to speak?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Campbell91 said:


> I would like a Bickerstaffe of course, or even the cheaper (around 85 pounds) longbows from other British Bowyers like the entry level Steve Ralph's bows, but importing those bows will cost 100s of dollars with customs and extra long package requirements etc...do you know of a Bickerstaffe of the United States so to speak?


I shoot a 40 or so pound, 72" Bickerstaffe Select. It is Hickory, Yew, Yew and Lemonwood (4 lams). Bickerstaffe used to have a "stockist" (retailer) in the US named Chris Stanley who ran Saxon Fox Archery and I bought it off of him without having to pay the ridiculous 5 bow-minimum shipping charge. That company has disappeared and AFIK Bickerstaffe has no US agent anymore. It is a good ELB, but not a magically sweet shooter, and the horn arrow plate is positioned two flat and far forward such that it doesn't take any of the wear. I used to think the bow had no hand shock, and I used to tell people that. Then I switched to modern longbow and recurve. Next time I shot the ELB I discovered I was dead wrong about the handshock--I just hadn't noticed it back then. So warn people to take all claims about hand shock with a grain of salt, even mine


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## dayrlm (May 20, 2010)

I sell the "Robin Hood" model that Kustom King carries that Bearpaw out of Germany supplies. In the past couple of years between their 58" 29# and 68" 40 pound I have close to 4 dozen of them to members of the Society for Creative Anachronism members and they have help up well and shoot nice as well. I even sold some to the local archery shop but when he had to close for a while I bough tthe last one back. They had left it strung for 3 months. It did drop from 40 to 35# because of the set it took. So don't leave them strung when not in use unless you want to lower the poundage. Either model is under $100.00. I have had some of the linen backed red oak bows that some of the other places sell. They were okay but I like the feel. looks nad shot characteristics of the Kustom King one better. I even stock and offer them on my website www.dmerrill.com as well.


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## Campbell91 (Apr 6, 2011)

I emailed Rudderbows (who were very courteous and prompt in their response btw) and they recommended for a beginner looking to get an english longbow either their solid hickory narrow style longbow or their ipe belly, hickory or bamboo backed longbow for better perormance:

https://rudderbowsarchery.com/shopp...oducts_id=21&zenid=7prt54jh5ossapiuffuk524b23

I read above that it was recommended ipe be used for the belly, and here's one that does that. Do you think it makes much of a difference whether you choose the hickory or bamboo backing?


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