# Recurve only: Tabs and Slings



## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Lots of folks make slings out here. I recommend Xforce Girl. Just a regular finger sling will work.

The thing between the fingers is just a spacer so there is less string pinch. You can use anything really. Some tabs come with them. Some folks make their own.


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

SHPoet said:


> Lots of folks make slings out here. I recommend Xforce Girl. Just a regular finger sling will work.
> 
> The thing between the fingers is just a spacer so there is less string pinch. You can use anything really. Some tabs come with them. Some folks make their own.


Those are nice slings! Are they for recurve though? My coach said to get something made of cotton.


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm moving this to FITA forum so you can find more info on the tab in the pic.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jaykayes said:


> Hello
> 
> -Can anyone tell me what tab this is? Used by Ki Bo Bae. Sorry this is the best shot I could find.
> 
> ...


Cotton shoelace

Leather shoelace

550 paracord

3 mm accessory cord
http://www.rei.com/product/716686/pmi-utility-cord-3mm
$0.18 per foot

Tie a loop
with the cord or shoe lace (make a knot)
and then
fold into a finger sling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX0iNyXdis0


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

Adding more pics for the tab (sorry for the bad quality):


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i will ask a few Korean National archers if they know the tab she uses.



Chris


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jaykayes said:


> -Also, instead of a cotton shoelace, can anyone recommend a good finger sling I can buy?
> 
> Thanks!


A flat shoe lace distributes the weight of the bow over your fingers better than commercial paracord slings, and shoelace slings are the choice of top Recurve archers world wide. You can make a hybrid shoelace finger sling that you won't have to tie each time you put it on by using some vinyl tubing to hold the sling hitches in place.

http://www.goldengatejoad.com/2013/...-archery-finger-sling-you-dont-have-to-retie/









The shoelace finger sling, including the hybrid version, are self tightening (the weight of the bow gently cinches the sling hitches), unlike the standard commercial paracord slings.


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> i will ask a few Korean National archers if they know the tab she uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


That's wonderful Chris. Thanks so much! 



Warbow said:


> A flat shoe lace distributes the weight of the bow over your fingers better than commercial paracord slings, and shoelace slings are the choice of top Recurve archers world wide. You can make a hybrid shoelace finger sling that you won't have to tie each time you put it on by using some vinyl tubing to hold the sling hitches in place.
> 
> http://www.goldengatejoad.com/2013/...-archery-finger-sling-you-dont-have-to-retie/
> 
> ...


Thanks so much! I was just looking at something like this!


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

jaykayes said:


> Adding more pics for the tab (sorry for the bad quality):


...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i am waiting to see if i get any answers, but from the photos, it appears to be a AAE elite finger tab ( bottom pic) . The shelf has been sanded? to metal removing the black color. The finger spacer is another brand attached, and she seems to use an elastic tie ( pink in this photo, greenish in other videos) with the finger loop threaded through the holes in the tab instead of the loop holes and blue string. 


Chris


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

They all use Cavalier Elite tabs. And they are all modded to make them more comfortable and fit their hands better. 

So first rule of buying a tab always go to an archery shop and check to see which size is best for you. That means that there is only just enough leather to cover your fingers when they are hooked on a string. also the metal plate should be the same width as your first 3 fingers.

when modifying the cavalier tab take the supplied finger spacer and store it in the garbage. try a no pinch spacer or some of the K1 offerings.
as for the loop wide elastic is good but try different things until you find something comfortable.

as for finger slings try different flat shoe laces what ever colour you like


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Not all use the cav elite.


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> i am waiting to see if i get any answers, but from the photos, it appears to be a AAE elite finger tab ( bottom pic) . The shelf has been sanded? to metal removing the black color. The finger spacer is another brand attached, and she seems to use an elastic tie ( pink in this photo, greenish in other videos) with the finger loop threaded through the holes in the tab instead of the loop holes and blue string.
> 
> 
> Chris


Thanks Chris!


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

DWAA Archer said:


> They all use Cavalier Elite tabs. And they are all modded to make them more comfortable and fit their hands better.
> 
> So first rule of buying a tab always go to an archery shop and check to see which size is best for you. That means that there is only just enough leather to cover your fingers when they are hooked on a string. also the metal plate should be the same width as your first 3 fingers.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much!

I can't seem to find the elastic loop though, where would you buy them?


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Elastic is not a good solution. Nearly all top Korean shooters who use a Cavalier tab (and indeed, it is a majority, but not all, of the top ranked Korean women, especially those coached by Ms. Lee, Eun Kyung) use a solid nylon strap.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

jaykayes said:


> Thanks so much!
> 
> I can't seem to find the elastic loop though, where would you buy them?


The loop you would have to make your self. 

GT has posted saying it's not a good solution but not given a clear reason why. Some archers do and some don't it's your call on that I say try different things to see what works best for you.

I use black 20mm wide nylon clothing elastic you can buy from any craft shop selling sewing materials. I had to widen the holes in the leather tab face to thread it through. I screwed the face plate back on to the tab face and backing with the ends of the elastic held in between the leather and the metal face plate. The ends should be long enough for them to be protruding from the bottom of the tab plate trim them up a little then melt the ends together with a lighter making a permanent loop.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

DWAA Archer said:


> The loop you would have to make your self.
> 
> GT has posted saying it's not a good solution but not given a clear reason why. Some archers do and some don't it's your call on that I say try different things to see what works best for you.
> 
> I use black 20mm wide nylon clothing elastic you can buy from any craft shop selling sewing materials. I had to widen the holes in the leather tab face to thread it through. I screwed the face plate back on to the tab face and backing with the ends of the elastic held in between the leather and the metal face plate. The ends should be long enough for them to be protruding from the bottom of the tab plate trim them up a little then melt the ends together with a lighter making a permanent loop.


From the sound of it I use the same material, but used the compression spring device that was previously on the stock cord (so it comes out the back like normal). I can adjust the tension in the elastic if I want. I like the elastic because I can have it snug and yet still spin it around easily when I pull arrows, and holds in place when I am shooting while distributing the pressure on the finger. I certainly am not a world class archer, but I know what I like.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

2 problems I've notice with elastics (don't know if these are the same things GT has in mind): 

- they tend to break down very suddenly
- on the release, because the elastic had 'give', the string tends to pull the tab with it


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

kshet26 said:


> 2 problems I've notice with elastics (don't know if these are the same things GT has in mind):
> 
> - they tend to break down very suddenly
> - on the release, because the elastic had 'give', the string tends to pull the tab with it


Just like you said.

You can take your chances that the changes in the elastic over time wont cause inconsistency that effect your shot, or go with what has proven to work every time. Elastic is not a good solution on any tab. Period.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=576489069067970&set=vb.153741084676106&type=3&theater


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

kshet26 said:


> 2 problems I've notice with elastics (don't know if these are the same things GT has in mind):
> 
> - they tend to break down very suddenly
> - on the release, because the elastic had 'give', the string tends to pull the tab with it



I'm pretty new but I've never felt my KSL tab get pulled with the string on release. Its pretty snug. I can wave my hand up and down like dribbling a basketball and even then I don't feel the elastic give or the tab move away from my hand. 

Just my experience. I don't think people can make definitive statements like "this is a bad solution. period. " I see the video that was posted above - but I would be much more convinced if it was the same person shooting - to rule out physical differences and differences in form. 

This is simply a personal preference on feel.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

gairsz said:


> Just like you said.
> 
> You can take your chances that the changes in the elastic over time wont cause inconsistency that effect your shot, or go with what has proven to work every time. Elastic is not a good solution on any tab. Period.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=576489069067970&set=vb.153741084676106&type=3&theater


I looked at the clip in the link you have put up is this a comparison between elastic and nylon because the video is not clear enough to show that. If it is then the comment I would make the demo is of two different archers with two different release styles. The clip of the release where the tab moves looks like the archer is opening the hand rather than relaxing this would be bad form rather than a tab issue.

Also if you are a competitive archer you would keep up with maintenance of equipment including tabs. I always have 2 identical shot in tabs ready to go so if I do have a problem I can just switch out.

When I shoot I cannot feel any movement of the tab but I will check it the next time I do some high speed video work, also when I was last videoed it was reviewed by 5 national level coaches who have spent time with Coach Kim, Kisik Lee and other international coaches they did not pick up on the tab having elastic although they did comment on my footwear but thats another thread


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

This is quite helpful. I will try to make my own when I get the chance.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Elastic is not a good solution





> Elastic is not a good solution on any tab. Period.


Ah, this would explain why, after switching from the blue cord to a wide elastic strap on my Cav. Elite tab, I only shot all my personal best scores - both indoor and outdoor - including a 341 with my first 36 arrows in matchplay at 70 meters to start day two of the Chula Vista trials event, a 296 30-arrow pass to tie one of Vic Wunderle's state records, and three state field records in two years.

Carry on folks.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Ah, this would explain why, after switching from the blue cord to a wide elastic strap on my Cav. Elite tab, I only shot all my personal best scores - both indoor and outdoor - including a 341 with my first 36 arrows in matchplay at 70 meters to start day two of the Chula Vista trials event, a 296 30-arrow pass to tie one of Vic Wunderle's state records, and three state field records in two years.
> 
> Carry on folks.


just think what your scores would have been like if you had a nylon strap instead - probably would have set a world record.

Snarkiness aside. 

I'm sure a strap like the ones on the venom tabs is pretty secure and I would even give it a try if they sold the strap and buckle separately.

However, like I said before, making definitive statements with out well thought out comparison tests is just marketing, or personal bias.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Dacer said:


> making definitive statements with out well thought out comparison tests is just marketing, or personal bias.


I think if you look at the top 50 shooters worldwide (or just people who have actually medaled at a world event, for instance), 90% of them use solid straps (leather or nylon or some other inelastic material). Not bias, just observation. The issue is what happens over time. Elastic changes in behavior faster than other solutions.

In my experience most of the good shooters I know who do use elastic change it very frequently- even every couple of weeks, in some cases.


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## jaykayes (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm keen to try out the elastic actually but have no experience buying them. Are the elastics sold separately from the spacer? Where would I go to buy them online? Pretty sure the archery shop in my range doesn't carry them.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

If you do want to try them, they do come on the KSL tab.

To replace a standard paracord with elastic go to Jo-Ann Fabrics, Beverly's or your local fabric store and ask for 1/2" elastic web or band..

I agree that the rigid flat straps would be more "secure" and less likely to stretch or fail than elastic bands but wide elastic band, they are sooo comfortable and do the job for me.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Ah, this would explain why, after switching from the blue cord to a wide elastic strap on my Cav. Elite tab, I only shot all my personal best scores - both indoor and outdoor - including a 341 with my first 36 arrows in matchplay at 70 meters to start day two of the Chula Vista trials event, a 296 30-arrow pass to tie one of Vic Wunderle's state records, and three state field records in two years.
> 
> Carry on folks.


Just out of curiosity how often do you change the elastic on your tab?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

jaykayes said:


> I'm keen to try out the elastic actually but have no experience buying them. Are the elastics sold separately from the spacer? Where would I go to buy them online? Pretty sure the archery shop in my range doesn't carry them.


what dchan recommended is the less expensive method if you want elastic on your tab. 

But AAE recently added spare parts to their KSL tabs on their website as well - including the elastic band. I don't know if its price reflects a better quality or not but its there.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

>--gt--> said:


> I think if you look at the top 50 shooters worldwide (or just people who have actually medaled at a world event, for instance), 90% of them use solid straps (leather or nylon or some other inelastic material). Not bias, just observation. The issue is what happens over time. Elastic changes in behavior faster than other solutions.
> 
> In my experience most of the good shooters I know who do use elastic change it very frequently- even every couple of weeks, in some cases.


I agree.

It doesn't seem like anyone else is listening.

It seems like the prudent thing to do is to go with what is consistent and proven. You can make the elastic secure enough, but your fingers will turn blue before the end is over. I am pretty sure that is not a good thing. You can make the tab heavier and heavier to try to stop the movement of the tab, but then the weight of the tab forces you to tighten the elastic even more. Back to the blue fingers problem.

A strap binding one, two, or three fingers in my opinion is always better than elastic regardless of the tab.

Gary


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

DWAA Archer said:


> I looked at the clip in the link you have put up is this a comparison between elastic and nylon because the video is not clear enough to show that. If it is then the comment I would make the demo is of two different archers with two different release styles. The clip of the release where the tab moves looks like the archer is opening the hand rather than relaxing this would be bad form rather than a tab issue.
> 
> Also if you are a competitive archer you would keep up with maintenance of equipment including tabs. I always have 2 identical shot in tabs ready to go so if I do have a problem I can just switch out.
> 
> When I shoot I cannot feel any movement of the tab but I will check it the next time I do some high speed video work, also when I was last videoed it was reviewed by 5 national level coaches who have spent time with Coach Kim, Kisik Lee and other international coaches they did not pick up on the tab having elastic although they did comment on my footwear but thats another thread


There are other videos on our web site and on youtube.

Do you think that someone that makes a tab with elastic tell you that it is not good, or any of the people that work for him as well?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

gairsz said:


> There are other videos on our web site and on youtube.
> 
> Do you think that someone that makes a tab with elastic tell you that it is not good, or any of the people that work for him as well?



And someone that promotes, and manufactures a strap instead of an elastic band would of course tell you that the strap is better. 

Goes both ways. 

I Think there is a strong bias to your statements.

It would be like GT saying hoyt makes the best bows...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> but wide elastic band, they are sooo comfortable and do the job for me.


This ^^^ 



> Just out of curiosity how often do you change the elastic on your tab?


I have replaced it exactly one time in the past 18 months.  

Gary, I hate to disagree, but yours is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Your video is quite compelling, but I think if you took the same video of an elastic band, you'd find that the tab moves precisely the same amount every shot, so the consistency is still there. 

To me, this is a topic that really isn't even worth discussing. Great scores have been shot with nylon straps, leather straps, chains (yes, chains) AND elastic bands. Use what works for you and worry about your arrow count or mental game, or how you're going to afford to get to that next tournament. In other words - much more important things than this.

But I'll warn ya' - if you try a wide elastic strap, you won't go back


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Dacer said:


> And someone that promotes, and manufactures a strap instead of an elastic band would of course tell you that the strap is better.
> 
> Goes both ways.
> 
> ...


You're are right. I have a bias in making a better product. I said any tab, not just ours.

There are plenty of people on AT stating their favorite tab is better than the rest with out testing or even trying other products. There was entire thread devoted to testing a new vane for a month which ultimately end as spin wings are better. Just like bows, arrows, stabilizers and vanes, tabs have to be tested over time and compared to past results. Nothing will add 100 points to you score just by changing. At the highest level you trying add just a few points each round.

My son pushed me to bring his tab to market because he truly believes it helps people shoot better. We have plenty of feedback to support that. While other make statements with no proof, we provide video. If that is not enough to convince someone elastic is not stable nothing will. Shoot any tab with strap, it won't let you down.

I am not trying to convince anyone to buy our tab. I just agree with what GT Said.

By the way, have you shot out tab?

Gary


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

gairsz said:


> You're are right. I have a bias in making a better product. I said any tab, not just ours.
> 
> There are plenty of people on AT stating their favorite tab is better than the rest with out testing or even trying other products. There was entire thread devoted to testing a new vane for a month which ultimately end as spin wings are better. Just like bows, arrows, stabilizers and vanes, tabs have to be tested over time and compared to past results. Nothing will add 100 points to you score just by changing. At the highest level you trying add just a few points each round.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you believe and stand behind your product , and from all accounts the tabs you make are great. I'm still of the opinion that it is more of a personal preference on feel than anything else when it comes to the $50 + price point tabs. I've seen to many really good archers using a variety of different products on youtube videos of World cup matches, and indoor finals to say other wise. 

I have not tried any of your tabs - not that I haven't been curious - its just not in my archery budget at present. However, the Axios figure spacer in on my LAS wishlist with the idea that I will one day give it a try. I'd also gladly try out a nylon strap on my KSL tab too to see if i like the feel for it - and probably will one day. 

So again let me be clear that I am not saying your product isn't a great product - plenty of posts have been made on its quality, and your great customer service.

The video you posted is compelling enough to say that it is more "secure" - however to get a fair test on its superiority one would have to take a large statistical sampling of archers, from say intermediate to all the 1300+ shooters one could get their hands on, and test the different tabs. Or have them test a single tab - one with and with out elastic. 

That's really the only way to provide strong evidence for the arguments of whether or not it actually effects performance - and even then keeping the individual archers own bias from effecting the results; how comfortable they think it feels, maybe they just don't like it so they shoot bad - is near impossible to do with human beings.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Really good thread. It raises the issue of empirical evidence with at least an attempt at controlling variables versus anecdotal claims. Gairzs and gt are basing their claims on, at the very least, attempts at compiling empirical evidence, which is actual evidence, unlike anecdotal claims. Things like high-speed video and a survey of the most accurate archers in history are real evidence that bring us closer to the truth. Anecdotal claims of an individual are interesting, but not evidence. Archery, as is science, is primarily about controlling variables. The more equipment can move, the more variance in how much it can move.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Dacer said:


> I'm glad you believe and stand behind your product , and from all accounts the tabs you make are great. I'm still of the opinion that it is more of a personal preference on feel than anything else when it comes to the $50 + price point tabs. I've seen to many really good archers using a variety of different products on youtube videos of World cup matches, and indoor finals to say other wise.
> 
> I have not tried any of your tabs - not that I haven't been curious - its just not in my archery budget at present. However, the Axios figure spacer in on my LAS wishlist with the idea that I will one day give it a try. I'd also gladly try out a nylon strap on my KSL tab too to see if i like the feel for it - and probably will one day.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. 

We do not recommend using our AXIOS finger spacer on the KSL unless you remove the palm plate. The palm plate can pushed the tab plate so far out of alignment with the target that even our spacer can dig into the web of our fingers, see photo. Even with the rubber overmold, which helps, we don't want people thinking our spacer is uncomfortable. Our spacer was designed for a typical tab plate. It seems to when the spacer is on a 45 degree angle away from the target there might be a problem with the design. Why have such a long spacer when almost half of it is even being used?

The angle of the Long AXIOS Spacer may not overcome the situation and may not prevent you from pinching the nock. Remove the palm plate.









Is it just me, or is the elastic in two of the pictures on the left cutting off the circulation in the fingers of those shooters?

Gary


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> This ^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks

The reason I went over to elastic was to stop the movement in my tab!!! Although to be fair I know now that is was a form issue and how I hooked the string that was causing the movement.

You are right though wide 3/4" elastic is very comfortable.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Yea on some people the KSL spacer twists like that. It he middle pictures looks like its a custom cut spacer and not the stock one. The lower picture is distinctly Joe Fanchin - who has a deep hook from what I can observe and I suspect that causes part of that. 

However it doesn't do that to everyone. There is considerably less twist in the way it fits Jake Kaminisk's hand - that said the Axios spacer is more ergonomic in how it follows the fingers


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> This ^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Didn't you tell everybody to buy wave vanes and then tell them they weren't as good as Eli?

Two years ago my son gave you a tab to test and you chose to take the very expensive Horween leather off and put it on you AAE tab. We asked you to pass it on to someone else to try if it did work for you. You never even bothered to spend a month or two like you did for your vane test. Its ok, we have had plenty of great shooter insist on paying knowing it helps Matt.

The two most important things in archery are the bow hand and the release hand, but you think it's your vanes. The tab and the grip are the most important. If those are screwed up the rest doesn't matter. Go out and buy a KSL, a Fivics tab, a win&win 360, and find the parts to our tab, and shoot a couple thousand arrows out of each one. Don't forget to tune your bow for each tab first. Plot your arrows and find the tab that shoots the best scores. Saying I like something does not make it the best way to go. Matt and I believe the same thing, its not what you like its what shoots the middle. He has been told numerous times his arrows are garbage while his scores keep climbing. While he was on the JDT they told him to shoot a different tab or change his to look like theirs while he broke every cadet record that could be broken.

When Matt and I started building a tab for him, what ended up being the prototype to what is on the market today; we never considered how it would look aesthetically. That is why it is so simple. We were looking to make a tab that worked better for him. It didn't have to be shaped cool or have a bunch of added accessories, it just needed to work. We tried elastic, but for it to be secure enough his fingers turned blue. Trying to thread the strap through the plate for the top two fingers was difficult so we put it through the spacer. So simple. We weren't trying to build the space shuttle just a simple secure tab. Matt shot great with it. Others liked it so we made a bunch. They have sold all over the world. Top shooters are using it, and we have nothing but good feedback. Most of our customers come back and buy a second tab. I guess they liked the first one.

Having Serrano accept a tab from us on the practice field at the Arizona cup two years ago at the end of the first day, and showing up the next day with it to shoot and he has not shot with another tab since is good enough for us. He ranked second with a 1340 and won an individual silver medal at a world cup event. Having people come up to us and thank us for making such a good product and telling us they are shooting better makes is all worth it. Giving you a tab to try and reading on AT that you took the leather off to put on your favorite tab says more about you than our tab or what we are about. 

John, I don't really care if you disagree with me. You like to do that. Why don't you design what you think is a better mouse trap, spend the money and bring it market and see if you like someone with no stake in the matter saying you have a solution for a problem that does not exist. You don't have any data to back up your claims. You haven't designed anything, just criticized. You would think that you would want to help a young american archer fund his archery career knowing how expensive it is instead of trying to turn people away. We have about 800 tabs out in the world. We listened to what shooters wanted and we upgraded our product and expanded our line. I know this for a fact; your mistakes are your mistakes with our tab. There is no way a tab as secure as ours with the top of the line cordovan leather we provide be the problems with your shot. Having the tab slide back and forth at a minimum just causes unwanted calluses on the fingers. In previous posts you said paracord was good enough now it’s fat elastic. Which one is it?

If the things people are talking about on AT don't interest you then you could just go back on your break. How would you like it if someone said we should get back to more important things every time you rambled on and on AT. You have posted about a million times and most of it is how everything you do is so great.

We stand behind what we make. We deliver a high quality product made in the USA at a reasonable price. We do everything we can to make our customers happy. We will not deviate from our philosophy. Quality, Stability, Consistency. Did you notice it doesn't say we have to care what you think?

Gary


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

We have really derailed the thread from its original post... rather spectacularly too.


So what is the best shoe to wear when shooting?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gary, the personal attacks don't suit you very well. I've supported your son. You know this, and he knows this. So back off. 

If you think that I enjoy disagreeing with you personally, then all I can say is that's an interesting perspective you have there. I think everyone here knows what to expect from you if they openly disagree with you.

Please show me where I told "everyone" to get the WAV vanes. I don't recall ever doing that.



> The two most important things in archery are the bow hand and the release hand, but you think it's your vanes.


Actually, the two most important things in archery are a strong mental game, and proper conditioning. The rest is just details.

And dude, this is just archery equipment we're talking about here. Mere tools for a sport that we PLAY. 

Get some perspective, please, and calm the He!! down.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Dacer said:


> And someone that promotes, and manufactures a strap instead of an elastic band would of course tell you that the strap is better.
> 
> Goes both ways.
> 
> ...


If the tab maker in question wanted to make an elastic tab strap he could probably do it in three seconds. Cheaper and easier than sourcing whatever solution he uses now.

As for your personal comment, I don't work for Hoyt. I can shoot whatever I want to. So, stow the cheap shots, 'm'kay?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

>--gt--> said:


> As for your personal comment, I don't work for Hoyt. I can shoot whatever I want to. So, stow the cheap shots, 'm'kay?



Ehh?

Better let Hoyt know then....

From the Hoyt Recurve site:

2012 World Cup Season Preview

World Archery Olympic commentator, world field archer, and Hoyt engineer George Tekmitchov previews the 2012 World Cup season


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Welcome to 2013. Soon to be 2014.

Do try to keep up.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Greysides said:


> Ehh?
> 
> Better let Hoyt know then....
> 
> ...


Actually on the shooting staff page GT is listed as a pro staff shooter,

"Occupation:
Hoyt Senior Recurve Engineer & International Staff Manager,
Easton International Technical Advisor"

and under equipment/sponsors
=======================
George Tekmitchov, Usa
GEORGE USES A HOYT FORMULA HPX/F7

GEORGE TEKMITCHOV
USA
Coach: Dick Tone
Sponsors & suppliers:
Hoyt, Easton, Shibuya Archery, Cavalier/AAE, Beiter, Asahi Archery K.K., HASCO, Angel Ltd., Leica GMBH

Equipment:
Bow: Formula HPX 27/F7 short, 48.6#
Arrow: Easton X10 410, 100g Aerojet/Easton W-Point, Beiter 02 I/O Nock, 1.75 Spin Wing Vane
Rest: Shibuya Ultima
Clicker & Plunger: Beiter (custom)
Stabilizer- HASCO QD V-bar set at 35 x 5, FUSE Carbon Blade Stabilizer System 27" main, 5" Carbon Blade SS ext, 11" sides
String- Angel Majesty 20
Sight- Shibuya Ultima RC
Aperture- Shibuya fiber optic 12 mm ring
Tab- Cavalier Elite Cordovan w/Cavalier spacer

===========================


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

>--gt--> said:


> Welcome to 2013. Soon to be 2014.
> 
> Do try to keep up.




Congratulations on your new job.




dchan said:


> Actually on the shooting staff page GT is listed as a pro staff shooter,



Must be out of date. Do try to keep up Hoyt.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

>--gt--> said:


> If the tab maker in question wanted to make an elastic tab strap he could probably do it in three seconds. Cheaper and easier than sourcing whatever solution he uses now.
> 
> As for your personal comment, I don't work for Hoyt. I can shoot whatever I want to. So, stow the cheap shots, 'm'kay?


The fact of if he can or cannot produce/source out a elastic band was never the point whatsoever, but you know that. 

Also it wasn't a cheap shot. It was a simple succinct point. When you work for or own a business you are typically expected to endorse that companies product - especially if you have a hand in designing the products. And thus presents an understandable Bias - But again I think you realize what I was getting at. 


My sincere apologies for not keeping up with your current employment - certainly a glaring oversight on my part.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Certainly not the only website with out of date information. I use Zeiss these days.

(And therein lies the issue. When you get your "knowledge" from the internet, and not from direct experience.)


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

How could they let such an eloquent ambassador for the company go?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

The Salt Lake Tribune
First Published Nov 07 2013 08:18 am • Last Updated *Nov 07 2013* 10:13 pm :


Tekmitchov worked for Hoyt for 12 years before transferring to fellow Jas D. Easton Inc. subsidiary Easton, which is also based in Salt Lake City and manufactures Everdeen’s Easton X7 Cobalt arrows.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57086997-78/bow-archery-says-recurve.html.csp


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Greysides said:


> The Salt Lake Tribune
> First Published Nov 07 2013 08:18 am • Last Updated *Nov 07 2013* 10:13 pm :
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know. We shouldn't believe everything we read on the internet.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

>--gt--> said:


> Certainly not the only website with out of date information. I use Zeiss these days.
> 
> (And therein lies the issue. When you get your "knowledge" from the internet, and not from direct experience.)


No argument there.

Just stating "a" source.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> Certainly not the only website with out of date information. I use Zeiss these days.
> 
> (And therein lies the issue. When you get your "knowledge" from the internet, and not from direct experience.)


Right, so what you are saying is that the Hoyt Website should be considered an untrustworthy source of information...interesting claim for their former Senior Engineer and International Staff Manager. And even as you imply that about Hoyt, the only thing you dispute as inaccurate (other than your now being a former Hoyt employee) is that you now use different optics.

As with many of your posts the information you deliberately withhold is often more informative than what you say. You say you can shoot whatever you want, but, if the Tribune article is correct, 1) you still work for a related company to Hoyt 2) you haven't said Hoyt is no longer a sponsor 3) you haven't said if you have any no disparagement clauses like some sponsored shooters seem to have.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Eat a snickers, Warble.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> Eat a snickers, Warble.


There's that avoidance I was talking about. You didn't address any of the points in my post. You don't claim that you are no longer sponsored by Hoyt. If you are sponsored by Hoyt then it seems unlikely you can what ever you want without loosing that sponsorship. And you avoid the issue of whether you are subject to any non-disparagement clauses, whose existence might even be subject to the NDA clause in one of your employment or sponsorship contracts or agreements. You could easily settle many of the questions people have if you wanted to but instead you make avoidant snipes like the one above.

I just wish you'd engage in these threads in a forthright manner and at the level of knowledge you are capable of. You are arguably one of the most knowledgeable people here, with ties to the industry at the highest level, yet one of the least informative and, at times, IMO, one of the most misleading. 

Back a tad more on topic, some people like the way a nice wide strap of elastic works, some like a secure cord, that has to be manually cinched. Both have advantages and disadvantages. And both are used by world-class athletes. 

The video by Venom is great, but not quite apples to apples since they apparently didn't use the exact same tab and threading with a nylon strap and and then with elastic at the same tension level. I suspect the results will still be similar, but when doing a test to show the difference in material performance the only difference should be the material. Instead, the video seems to have some other variables. Not 100% sure because the FB description wasn't specific on all the points.

It is certainly the case that elastic can loose its elasticity over time, but then again *everything* wears out over time. That isn't necessarily a case for not using it at all. And sometimes things that look incredibly flimsy can work to exceedingly high tolerances in practice. I think that if nobody here had ever seen a Hoyt Super Rest, or the foam adhesive, that not a single person here would think that flimsy piece of plastic would have a chance in hell as working in the same league as a machined aluminum/stainless steel wire rest bolted securely to a riser. Intuitively there's no way it could work remotely as well, certainly not at the tolerances needed to Shoot at 70 and 90 meters. No way. But they do. And I suspect the same may be true of elastic, though, perhaps, to a lesser degree. Even so, the Venom marketing video is an effective sales tool, far more so than the personal sniping in the thread against Limbwalker. (I'm not a marketing expert, but usually going unnecessarily negative against people others like and respect isn't a good marketing move and even if you think you are in the right.)


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Cool story, bro. Looking forward to the part where you stop typing.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I dunno Warbow. If I was making a product and sent it off for someone to evaluate but they just took the parts off they liked I'd be pretty upset. Especially if that person also could have let other people try it.
As for GT: out of the left pocket, into the right.

-Grant


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

>--gt--> said:


> Cool story, bro. Looking forward to the part where you stop typing.


I bet it gets exhuasting being so awesome.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Wow I've come back to look at this thread after a few hours and it's turned into a forum version of a bar room brawl 

GT good luck in the new job. 
I would like to make a request for a new line of target arrows that are so tightly matched and come complete with 
matched points (yes a selection of weights will be needed) so that they do not require any additional tuning to compensate for any variation in carbon thickness. nock'em, fletch'em and shoot'em.

garisz offer both types of strap and then you'll have a win win situation (no pun intended  everyone will be happy.

and to every one else go shoot some arrows and enjoy


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

John, you don't think that when you decided to add your two cents to the discussion, and you stated basically our entire reason for making our product was a waste of time, that was not an attack on us? Mainly me. You added nothing to the discussion except our solution is worthless, and that you use fat elastic and everyone should do the same. Every time our tab is mentioned on AT you have to say something to diminishes our products importance or value. I would appreciate it if you just don't say anything unless you have some information on how to improve the product. Why don't you put yourself out there and bring us a better product. I promise you we will test it until the elastic falls off.

To everyone else, thank you for listening. Matt will be competing at all of the USAT shoots this next year. If anyone would like to try a tab he always has a couple demos with him.

As for marketing. There are people and institutions that think we actually have a good product.

Bow International's review.

http://www.blackmambaarchery.com/images/bow%20international.jpg

Gary


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

DWAA Archer said:


> GT good luck in the new job.


22 years for the same company and 14 months back at the arrow division isn't quite "new" but thanks anyway


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

grantmac said:


> I dunno Warbow. If I was making a product and sent it off for someone to evaluate but they just took the parts off they liked I'd be pretty upset. Especially if that person also could have let other people try it.


Whether it happened or not, whether he is upset or not if he is a professional (or wants to act like one) he shouldn't unnecessarily pick a public fight while trying to promote his product. Gairsz is starting a public spat with Limbwalker. Not good marketing, IMO.

Here's how he could have made it a positive:



> How good is the Horween Cordovan we use for our tabs? We gave some to 2004 Olympian John Magera. He started using it right away. And he wouldn't give it back. Yeah, it's that good. And it's standard on every Venom tab.


Instead he's bringing himself and his product down to the level of picking public fights because, it seems, he feels personally slighted. Personal feelings shouldn't come into it at this level. Venom makes great tabs and, from all I've head, offers good customer service. There social media presence should match that level of professionalism. And picking unnecessary public spats is the exact opposite of being professional.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> 22 years for the same company and 14 months back at the arrow division isn't quite "new" but thanks anyway


So, when you wrote this:



>--gt--> said:


> As for your personal comment, I don't work for Hoyt. I can shoot whatever I want to. So, stow the cheap shots, 'm'kay?


...you were being disingenuous. You still work for the same company, just a different division. And it seems unlikely that Easton would be happy if you shot a bow other than one of theirs from their Hoyt division, and certainly so if Hoyt is still one of your sponsors as an archer.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

No, it's not gairsz who started the spat and is looking bad here.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TER said:


> No, it's not gairsz who started the spat and is looking bad here.


I'm gonna opt out and just glue my tab to my fingers. No elastic, no strap. :dontknow:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gary, you might want to read and consider the advice from Warbow above. 

There was a much better way to handle my experience with your (or is it your son's, it's hard to tell) tab. Warbow is correct, I quickly realized that the tab material you are using is superior to the legendary Cavalier Elite tab cordovan, and more consistent. I have my own reasons for sticking with the Cavalier tab - mainly personal preference - and that should be good enough for you. You asked me to test it and if I didn't decide to use it, pass it along to a student. Well, I decided to use the face material. So...



> and you stated basically our entire reason for making our product was a waste of time


 That is nothing more than your interpretation. And we're talking about one component of your product. If you are going to say that the straps are what sets your tab apart, then you're not giving credit to the rest of the design, which is also very good.

Until and unless you can learn to stop taking everything so personally - and every disagreement or difference of opinion as a personal attack, I really have nothing else to say to you, whether here, or the next time we meet. You sir, have really fumbled the ball here and are doing nothing but making yours (or Matt's) product look bad. 

I could stoop to your level and make some snarky comments, but out of respect to Matt - for whom I have a great deal of respect - I won't.

This thread has unfortunately degenerated to a point where it has reminded me why I was taking a break from AT in the first place.

If anyone needs me, I'll be in a tree stand, with a Trad Tech recurve in my hands.

Goodbye


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Warbow said:


> I'm gonna opt out and just glue my tab to my fingers. No elastic, no strap. :dontknow:


Chinese finger traps should suffice!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Is there a really low barometric pressure center hovering over the USA right now?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

w8lon said:


> Chinese finger traps should suffice!


I'll use those to keep my trad glove on tight. I hate always having to poke my fingers into my chest to re-seat it before every shot (I call it the trad archer's salute).


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

With large knuckles from many years of abuse as a Carpenter the only thing thing that works for me is elastic. Have tried paracord and the nylon strap robbed off an old Pentax camera strap with the buckle and they are way too loose if made to slide over my knuckles. The only thing else that worked was the original chain bead set up on my late eighties Cavalier. If the fingers turn blue with elastic straps that is easy enough to make another hole and loosen. Also would rather not mess with tightening a buckle or moveable bead with the paracord.


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