# whats the deal with crossbows and hunting??



## OH_Hunter24

jetthelooter said:


> I am not looking to start any arguments. i am new to archery and have never hunted with a bow before. my question is why are crossbows disallowed in most states unless your disabled?? i have never liked crossbows but i have never understood why they cannot be used to hunt with. what i am looking for is the reason why. * i owuld appreciate an answer without starting arguments.* or a link to an answer will suffice


That wont happen :zip: :wink: :tongue:
I wish I could offer up an answer. However, PA just got crossbows legalized and if I'm not mistaken NY is not far from that either...so I'm sure more states will follow. Here in Ohio they've been legal since I can remember, so I've grown up with the notion that crossbows do not hurt the herd. 

In my opinion, it will mean more hunters, which is a great thing. In this past month's American Hunting magazine there was a statistic that showed big game hunting declining 26% (I believe the time frame was 1996-2006). If crossbows can get a few more people into the woods then I hardly see a down side.


----------



## idrawfirstblood

*Let em hunt*

I agree let them hunt, imho its the bag limits that control the herd. Weather you shoot it with a recurve or a .50 cal sniper rifle (which i'd love to do) who cares.


----------



## fredbear1969

jetthelooter said:


> I am not looking to start any arguments. that is not going to happen with a crossbow post.i personaly dont care how ya hunt as long as ya hunt but if you raise this question on certain trad sites or this sight for that matter and the roof will blow off with people loosing their minds about crossbows.i agree with the above posts the more people hunting the better off we all are as hunters


----------



## jetthelooter

i really dont see the difference between the two other than one device shoots a bit faster than the other. 

i am just trying to find out why they are illegal to hunt with in most states. i am wondering what the lawmaker rationalization is. i spent a good bit of time and the only thing i found was that some pope in the 1100's made them illegal to hunt christians with. i do not think that has much bearing on the modern world and laws in the US. 

i even shot off a missive to my state representive and one to the DNR here in wisconsin asking why they were. the only thing i found on the forums here was a bunch of angst on one side or the other with no information as to why. neither the anti x-bow crowd or the pro-side from my searches had any info on it that i could find as to the real reason why they are illegal to use or even when the trend in the lawmaking started.

i can understand why poisoned arrows and explosive arrows are illegal to use, its self evident. but i have yet to find out why x-bows are illegal.


----------



## jetthelooter

i just did an online chat with a representive from the DNR here in wisconsin. they consider it unsportsmanlike (which i dont want to argue the merits of i am just repeating their stance) which is why it is illegal in wisconsin. they make exception for the disabled so they can at least hunt. and i guess that answers my question.

thanks to those that posted.

the mods can lock this or delete the whole thread if they wish as i got my answer in regards to wisconsin law.


----------



## rocklocker2

*speed*

my Iron Mace is just as fast as my Horton 150 lb crossbow.And i am as accurate at 50 yds with the mace as the Xbow.and the Horton sounds like a 22 rifle going off so no advantage there either.i also have one of the original Whammo Xbows .fun to shoot,SOB to cock at 200 lbs.the laser sight is deadly on critters in the garden tho


----------



## wis_archer

To be honest I'm not quite sure....they don't impose any much more of an advantage than a veritcal bow. Yes they are already cocked, but yes they are VERY VERY loud.


----------



## aceoky

> what i am looking for is the reason why


The "real" reasons why are quite interesting IMO

You have state bow clubs and orgs that have fallen for the bunk and downright false information being spewed by orgs which exist solely to fight crossbow inclusion (NABC and PBS to name two) 

Most times the officers of these groups take on the stance to fight for all they are worth without bothering to even ask their own bowhunting membership! 

Another "reason" is pure selfish greed not wanting to share "their season":mg: with others who wish to use another archery weapon (sad as it is, it's true)

These are by no means "all " of the "reasons" some want to fight other fellow hunters (and would be hunters) but I think you can get the "gist" of it and WHY you were told what you were told (and now you know where that came from as well) 



> with a representive from the DNR here in wisconsin. they consider it unsportsmanlike


Just so you KNOW.......

There is over 30 years of REAL Data proving crossbows have the same hunter success rates as compounds.....same effective range........

SO ..........IF they were being honest I would have to question WHY one is allowed (and used by most bow hunters) while one is "unsportsmanlike" .......

Now you see how they "buy into" totally false information provided to them by the above........had they done ANY real research on the issue they'd KNOW better than telling anyone that load of....._________


----------



## I like Meat

Crossguns are looked down on because of the ease of their use. It takes time to become a competent archer. But any one can pick up a crossgun and use it in seconds. Archery only seasons are just that ARCHERY ONLY....that means verticle hand held BOWS .....now if crossguns are to be used, keep them in gun seasons or the late season and let the early archery stay verticle....a crossgun hunter is NOT a bowhunter. Here in Indiana they are already in the gun seasons and late seasons..and are ok for true handicapped use.....fine let them stay there.... but keep them out of my early archery season.....


----------



## millerarchery

I agree, I think they have there place if someone cant physically pull back a compound, but i think a lot of people that are not willing to practice and get proficiant with a compound would hunt just because they didnt have to spend time practicing. To be a good archer takes time and i just think a x-bow would take away from the sport of it. I am not saying i am right or wrong , this is just my opinion.



I like Meat said:


> Crossguns are looked down on because of the ease of their use. It takes time to become a competent archer. But any one can pick up a crossgun and use it in seconds. Archery only seasons are just that ARCHERY ONLY....that means verticle hand held BOWS .....now if crossguns are to be used, keep them in gun seasons or the late season and let the early archery stay verticle....a crossgun hunter is NOT a bowhunter. Here in Indiana they are already in the gun seasons and late seasons....fine let them stay there, but keep them out of my early archery season.....


----------



## superbuckeye

Personally, I have nothing against someone else using a crossbow, but it is NOT for me. There is just something about taking the time to practice and become proficient with your wdeapon that makes it that much more fulfilling when you harvest an animal. With a crossbow anyone can go to the store, purchase one, sight it in and be at the woods ready to hunt in a matter of hours. Archers spend much more time learning their equipment and becoming proficient with it use before they take to the woods. Yes this is a generalization, but you will find it to be true more times than not.


----------



## Cold Weather

I like Meat said:


> Crossguns are looked down on because of the ease of their use. It takes time to become a competent archer. But any one can pick up a crossgun and use it in seconds. Archery only seasons are just that ARCHERY ONLY....that means verticle hand held BOWS .....now if crossguns are to be used, keep them in gun seasons or the late season and let the early archery stay verticle....a crossgun hunter is NOT a bowhunter. Here in Indiana they are already in the gun seasons and late seasons..and are ok for true handicapped use.....fine let them stay there.... but keep them out of my early archery season.....


stupid comment..

looks like someone is too lazy to use a real bow-a stickbow. Someone using a high tech compound with release, sights, etc..

claiming someone else who uses a crossbow is "lazy" is so uneducated it is hardly worth a response.

Cold Weather


----------



## BigBirdVA

Cold Weather said:


> stupid comment..
> 
> looks like someone is too lazy to use a real bow-a stickbow. Someone using a high tech compound with release, sights, etc..
> 
> claiming someone else who uses a crossbow is "lazy" is so uneducated it is hardly worth a response.
> 
> Cold Weather


+1

When the original archery season was diluted down with compounds it changed. As they became much improved the line between xbows and compounds got even closer. With today's gear it's much ado about nothing. 

I'm guessing in another 5-10 years they'll be accepted and legal for most of the US. If we're still even hunting. :zip:


----------



## I like Meat

Now who said Ive never used long bows or recurves ?....I may prefer a compound...but that is besides the point....crossguns ARE easier to use than any verticle bow and that is a fact.....:wink:


----------



## Cold Weather

I like Meat said:


> Now who said Ive never used long bows or recurves ?....I may prefer a compound...but that is besides the point....crossguns ARE easier to use than any verticle bow and that is a fact.....:wink:


first off, it's called a crossbow. You shoot an crossbow? I own one-and I do not shoot any better than my compound.

But, that's besides the point. It doesn't matter if one is easier than the other. Recreational sport.

you think those who shoot compounds are dedicated and not lazy? Then you haven't a clue.

I work part time for one of the largest outdoor retailers in their archery dept. I see guys coming in all the time with compounds and they are too lazy to learn how to shoot.

I've had guys come in with 30 year old compounds-said because they only go out bowhunting-they did not want to make the investment to better equipment.

as I said, you comments reflect an incredible amount of ignorance. Tell you what..

go make a bow following Saxton Pope's "Hunting with a Bow and Arrow"-a self bow. Make your own arrows, and hunt as they did.

that's real archery, and real bowhunting

I have doubt you seriously bowhunt-if you did you would know that there is much more than the type of bow-crossbow, compound, recurve, longbow, selfbow-that goes into it.

Cold Weather


----------



## Guest

your IRS taxes crossbows as archery equipment. If they were so easy to use, one would think the harvest rates would be higher but since they are about the same, the ease of use and accuracy and draw in the presence of game go right out the window.


----------



## sawtoothscream

its easier to kill with i guess. idk. i could care less if people used them though. i reather stay with my regular bow. unless there was a seperate season for crossbow i will nevre own one.


----------



## I like Meat

Dosnt mean diddly squat....I have been in the archery/outdoor business for over 20 years selling guns, bow, archery equipment, clothing and yes, *CROSSGUNS.*They still do not belong in the early archery except for a true handicapped hunter....I am also a hunter ed instructor and have helped set up many bowhunter ed classes.....*CROSSGUNS*,do not belong in early archery....simple as that...:wink: Now as for me being a serious bowhunter....you *REALLY DONT KNOW DIDDLY SQUAT !!*. I'm not going to get into a pissin' match over the POS things, or who has done what....Bowhunting and deer hunting is more than "recreation" to me...it is a life style.....*KEEP IT VERTICLE !!!*


----------



## Jim C

I like Meat said:


> Dosnt mean diddly squat....I have been in the archery/outdoor business for over 20 years selling guns, bow, archery equipment, clothing and yes, *CROSSGUNS.*They still do not belong in the early archery except for a true handicapped hunter....I am also a hunter ed instructor and have helped set up many bowhunter ed classes.....*CROSSGUNS*,do not belong in early archery....simple as that...:wink: Now as for me being a serious bowhunter....you *REALLY DONT KNOW DIDDLY SQUAT !!*. I'm not going to get into a pissin' match over the POS things, or who has done what....Bowhunting and deer hunting is more than "recreation" to me...it is a life style.....*KEEP IT VERTICLE !!!*


What a moronic comment. Only an idiot would call them "crossguns"

as a long time olympic style recurve competitor I find it funny that someone who uses a wheelbow with a mechanical release would whine about crossbows being too easy.

Stop worrying about other people and what they use in what is a RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. Its you lifestyle whackos who cause most of the problems. Its not a religion to me so keep your faith-based rants and anti hunting elitism out of here


----------



## I like Meat

You may be a coach...but you dont know squat.......I love to see guys get bent out of shape over these damn things....LOL.....and yes, we here call 'em crossguns....see ya "coach" !!


----------



## Jim C

I like Meat said:


> You may be a coach...but you dont know squat.......I love to see guys get bent out of shape over these damn things....LOL.....and yes, we here call 'em crossguns....see ya "coach" !!


I bet I have forgotten more about archery than you will ever know. I know its a Crossbow not a crossgun. You are the one bent out of shape because your ego is bruised by the thought that some other guy might shoot "your buck" and he might have practiced a few minutes less than you did. 


The only people who worry about what other hunters use in terms of archery gear are those who have serious self-esteem problems and think that their worth as a hunter will be diminished by what another bowhunter uses.


Grow up-people like you are going to ruin or eliminate the sport-PETA loves people like you who call other hunters "lazy" or "unskilled" or "cheaters".


----------



## BigBirdVA

Jim C said:


> I bet I have forgotten more about archery than you will ever know. I know its a Crossbow not a crossgun. You are the one bent out of shape because your ego is bruised by the thought that some other guy might shoot "your buck" and he might have practiced a few minutes less than you did.
> 
> 
> The only people who worry about what other hunters use in terms of archery gear are those who have serious self-esteem problems and think that their worth as a hunter will be diminished by what another bowhunter uses.
> 
> 
> Grow up-people like you are going to ruin or eliminate the sport-PETA loves people like you who call other hunters "lazy" or "unskilled" or "cheaters".


Maybe it's not esteem but something much smaller.


----------



## I like Meat

"Coach".......touchy.... aint we....ROFLMAO !!:zip:....:darkbeer:....ukey:


----------



## aceoky

Cold Weather said:


> first off, it's called a crossbow. You shoot an crossbow? I own one-and I do not shoot any better than my compound.
> 
> But, that's besides the point. It doesn't matter if one is easier than the other. Recreational sport.
> 
> you think those who shoot compounds are dedicated and not lazy? Then you haven't a clue.
> 
> I work part time for one of the largest outdoor retailers in their archery dept. I see guys coming in all the time with compounds and they are too lazy to learn how to shoot.
> 
> I've had guys come in with 30 year old compounds-said because they only go out bowhunting-they did not want to make the investment to better equipment.
> 
> as I said, you comments reflect an incredible amount of ignorance. Tell you what..
> 
> go make a bow following Saxton Pope's "Hunting with a Bow and Arrow"-a self bow. Make your own arrows, and hunt as they did.
> 
> that's real archery, and real bowhunting
> 
> I have doubt you seriously bowhunt-if you did you would know that there is much more than the type of bow-crossbow, compound, recurve, longbow, selfbow-that goes into it.
> 
> Cold Weather


Careful or you'll confuse the "better than thou" folks with facts .......:darkbeer:


----------



## Dchiefransom

Why are some streams artificial flies only?


----------



## Jim C

Dchiefransom said:


> Why are some streams artificial flies only?


a false analogy. as a long time fly fisherman I know damn well a mepps spinner or a worm is a far more effective bait than a fly and trout that won't touch even a Lee Wulf cast dry fly will jump on a live worm. You labor under the delusions that a crossbow is a more effective hunting tool than a compound bow. It is only for a novice. even moderately skilled compound archers can shoot as accurately as crossbow archers and shooting the arrow is only one of many skills one needs to successfully hunt deer. 

You take say my student who is world crossbow champion but who has never hunted and put him in the woods with say a guy who has hunted for years but cannot shoot above a 240/300 on a NFAA indoor, who is going to get the deer?


----------



## Jim C

I like Meat said:


> "Coach".......touchy.... aint we....ROFLMAO !!:zip:....:darkbeer:....ukey:


Nope-I just laugh at people whose logic is so pathetic they have to use lie filled terms like "crossguns". You are the touchy one-you are losing all over the USA and the anti crossbow nonsense is becoming extinct.


----------



## Jim C

BigBirdVA said:


> Maybe it's not esteem but something much smaller.


True-that could be the source of his problems:wink:


----------



## Tenpoint TL-7

*Crossbows*

I'm glad that crossbows are allowed in archery season in PA. My compound bows was'nt getting the job done. The crossbow is what I need to kill those deer. Good thing I was useing the crossbow or that 8 point buck will still be alive today. :wink:


----------



## Jim C

tenpoint tl-7 said:


> i'm glad that crossbows are allowed in archery season in pa. My compound bows was'nt getting the job done. The crossbow is what i need to kill those deer. Good thing i was useing the crossbow or that 8 point buck will still be alive today. :wink:


lol.


----------



## grizzl

*Difference*

*FOR FREE RANGE AND/OR PUBLIC LAND HUNTERS THE DIFFERENCE IS CLEAR
*
1) Draw in the presence of the game vs pre-cocked and shoot. Can HOLD on target FOREVER. Less Movement..sight a deer in at 100 yards and hold...

2) Result= higher kill per shot taken. Bag limits are set to harvest #'s (where the even count it). Be prepared to have lower bag limits per hunter (in free range public land) People who think bag limits control the herd must think driver licenses are relational to drunk driving accidents. Law of probability - bad driver more accidents- easier to execute a shot (see #1) = higher kill ratio per shot ergo eventual adjustment of bag limits (downward) for higher harvest numbers

3) Scoped Xbows encourage longer shot attempts- Logical result is higher wound rate and deer not recovered- human nature

4) Its all about the retail sales of xbows and money grubbing states.

*Boycott bows and all products made by Xbow manufacturers pushing Xbows in early archery only season.*

I hunted pre and post Xbow in Virginia and the quality of the herd HAS suffered based on my personal observation and data collected at my game station. Higher harvest #'s the first couple of years then a precipitous drop in P&Y and mature bucks

Vote with your dollars boycott or buy...I choose to boycott .

Use them in general season where they belong


----------



## Jim C

grizzl said:


> *FOR FREE RANGE AND/OR PUBLIC LAND HUNTERS THE DIFFERENCE IS CLEAR
> *
> 1) Draw in the presence of the game vs pre-cocked and shoot. Can HOLD on target FOREVER. Less Movement..sight a deer in at 100 yards and hold...
> 
> 2) Result= higher kill per shot taken. Bag limits are set to harvest #'s (where the even count it). Be prepared to have lower bag limits per hunter (in free range public land) People who think bag limits control the herd must think driver licenses are relational to drunk driving accidents. Law of probability - bad driver more accidents- easier to execute a shot (see #1) = higher kill ratio per shot ergo eventual adjustment of bag limits (downward) for higher harvest numbers
> 
> 3) Scoped Xbows encourage longer shot attempts- Logical result is higher wound rate and deer not recovered- human nature
> 
> 4) Its all about the retail sales of xbows and money grubbing states.
> 
> *Boycott bows and all products made by Xbow manufacturers pushing Xbows in early archery only season.*
> 
> I hunted pre and post Xbow in Virginia and the quality of the herd HAS suffered based on my personal observation and data collected at my game station. Higher harvest #'s the first couple of years then a precipitous drop in P&Y and mature bucks
> 
> Vote with your dollars boycott or buy...I choose to boycott .
> 
> Use them in general season where they belong


sadly for you your spewage is without merit. 

I did tests where we put a camera on a McKenzie and an archer in a tree stand. Drawing the compound bow was no easier to see than raising a crossbow and aiming it at the target


Selfishness is what motivates the anti crossbow crowd. I laugh at compound archers who whine about crossbows being too easy. Only a moron would say a crossbow is closer to a rifle or shotgun than a compound bow.

You guys might check the scores at the NFAA indoors-and the compounds in the bowhunter unllimited classes are about the same as hunting bows while the crossbows are far more sophisticated than the hunting rigs.

The top crossbow score won't place in the top compound divisions-not anywhere near the top. So if world championship level crossbow archers cannot outshoot world class to very good compound archers, how do you suppose guys you people call lazy have an advantage over experts who practice hours each day like you


----------



## Tenpoint TL-7

grizzl said:


> *FOR FREE RANGE AND/OR PUBLIC LAND HUNTERS THE DIFFERENCE IS CLEAR
> *
> 1) Draw in the presence of the game vs pre-cocked and shoot. Can HOLD on target FOREVER. Less Movement..sight a deer in at 100 yards and hold...
> 
> 2) Result= higher kill per shot taken. Bag limits are set to harvest #'s (where the even count it). Be prepared to have lower bag limits per hunter (in free range public land) People who think bag limits control the herd must think driver licenses are relational to drunk driving accidents. Law of probability - bad driver more accidents- easier to execute a shot (see #1) = higher kill ratio per shot ergo eventual adjustment of bag limits (downward) for higher harvest numbers
> 
> 3) Scoped Xbows encourage longer shot attempts- Logical result is higher wound rate and deer not recovered- human nature
> 
> 4) Its all about the retail sales of xbows and money grubbing states.
> 
> *Boycott bows and all products made by Xbow manufacturers pushing Xbows in early archery only season.*
> 
> I hunted pre and post Xbow in Virginia and the quality of the herd HAS suffered based on my personal observation and data collected at my game station. Higher harvest #'s the first couple of years then a precipitous drop in P&Y and mature bucks
> 
> Vote with your dollars boycott or buy...I choose to boycott .
> 
> Use them in general season where they belong


grizzl youre' number 3 is wrong for me. I shot at deer with a compound bow at 25 yards and in and the bow was just wounding them. The compound bow that I was useing did'nt work so I bought a crossbow and the now and the deer are droping like flyes.


----------



## OH_Hunter24

grizzl said:


> *FOR FREE RANGE AND/OR PUBLIC LAND HUNTERS THE DIFFERENCE IS CLEAR
> *
> 1) Draw in the presence of the game vs pre-cocked and shoot. Can HOLD on target FOREVER. Less Movement..sight a deer in at 100 yards and hold...
> 
> 2) Result= higher kill per shot taken. Bag limits are set to harvest #'s (where the even count it). Be prepared to have lower bag limits per hunter (in free range public land) People who think bag limits control the herd must think driver licenses are relational to drunk driving accidents. Law of probability - bad driver more accidents- easier to execute a shot (see #1) = higher kill ratio per shot ergo eventual adjustment of bag limits (downward) for higher harvest numbers
> 
> 3) Scoped Xbows encourage longer shot attempts- Logical result is higher wound rate and deer not recovered- human nature
> 
> 4) Its all about the retail sales of xbows and money grubbing states.
> 
> *Boycott bows and all products made by Xbow manufacturers pushing Xbows in early archery only season.*
> 
> I hunted pre and post Xbow in Virginia and the quality of the herd HAS suffered based on my personal observation and data collected at my game station. Higher harvest #'s the first couple of years then a precipitous drop in P&Y and mature bucks
> 
> Vote with your dollars boycott or buy...I choose to boycott .
> 
> Use them in general season where they belong


This entire statement almost doesn't deserve a comment, but I just have a couple points to make.

#2 is wrong. Since Ohio started allowing crossbows, our bag limits have been going up and our herd is still far superior to VA. There has to be some other factors involved in the poor quaility (in your opinion) of the herd.

#4 is not completely wrong, but mostly. Sure, more people getting involved will mean more money. Money for things like conservation, wildlife management, and numerous other benefits for ALL hunters (even elitist/anti-crossbow hunters). The important part that you're not focusing on is that this does mean MORE PARTICIPATION. Participation is already down and it is very wrong for elitist hunters to look down upon crossbow hunters, muzzleloader hunters, and shotgun/rifle hunters.

I've never owned a crossbow, but I assume that I will when I eventually get up there in age. Luckily, I live in a state with logical regulations which will allow me to use one whenever I feel necessary. In my circle of hunting buddies, I've never heard anybody whining about crossbows... I guess that comes from experience and years of knowing that crossbows have not hurt our hunting even a little bit.


----------



## ButchA

I have shot a crossbow once. I didn't care for it. I'm not knocking it though. I mean, if you want to shoot a crossbow, then go for it.

But in my opinion, only someone who is handicapped should really use a crossbow. Once they started allowing them for everyone, then tons of people were at the archery stores buying them. 

But then, like I said, if you or anyone else wants to shoot one, fine... go ahead. I tried shooting one, and don't care for them.


----------



## BigBirdVA

ButchA said:


> I have shot a crossbow once. I didn't care for it. I'm not knocking it though. I mean, if you want to shoot a crossbow, then go for it.
> 
> But in my opinion, only someone who is handicapped should really use a crossbow. Once they started allowing them for everyone, then tons of people were at the archery stores buying them.
> 
> But then, like I said, if you or anyone else wants to shoot one, fine... go ahead. I tried shooting one, and don't care for them.


Have you seen tons of people in the woods with one? I've been on a few public hunts where it was only open a few days and there just wasn't tons of xbows there. I see people using them but they're not out there every day either. They may add some hunt days to the total time new to archery hunters are in the woods over the year but it didn't turn it into a free for all.

And just like you didn't like it a lot of others don't either. It's a nice option for those that want it or need it but don't fit the typical medical requirement or feel the need to jump through hoops to use one. With VA giving more bow days to ML it's almost a pointless argument here. Between hounds and ML the last 2 weeks are lost to archers anyway.


Hey maybe they could make Sundays xbow days!:wink:


----------



## crockett dp

*its starts fights between hunters*

It all comes down to one thing a quick clean ethical Kill I would rather see people out there with X-bows then out there with bow they picked up the night before the hunt or somebody like my dad who is not handicaped but just cant pull a bow back but wants to get out there hunting or my son and daughter who cant pull the right amount LBS to make a quick clean ethical kill its people ukey: I LIKE MEAT that are the instigators who do not have a clue and it is X-bow not X-gun get it right and that X-bows have been around just as long as vertical bows its like saying do you use a release aid or a compond bow it opens up so many argument that we as hunter dont need to have between us again it comes down to yousing what you need to make a quick clean ethical kill the criter you are after doesnt know the diff.


----------



## grizzl

Jim C said:


> sadly for you your spewage is without merit.
> 
> I did tests where we put a camera on a McKenzie and an archer in a tree stand. Drawing the compound bow was no easier to see than raising a crossbow and aiming it at the target
> 
> 
> Selfishness is what motivates the anti crossbow crowd. I laugh at compound archers who whine about crossbows being too easy. Only a moron would say a crossbow is closer to a rifle or shotgun than a compound bow.
> 
> You guys might check the scores at the NFAA indoors-and the compounds in the bowhunter unllimited classes are about the same as hunting bows while the crossbows are far more sophisticated than the hunting rigs.
> 
> The top crossbow score won't place in the top compound divisions-not anywhere near the top. So if world championship level crossbow archers cannot outshoot world class to very good compound archers, how do you suppose guys you people call lazy have an advantage over experts who practice hours each day like you


Yea..call names....that's all you got... a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.

I believe my own eyes and data that *I* see. Check the deer kill #'s in Va for Xbows vs vertical. Google it...The number of deer killed in early archery season doubled...

Forgive me for not taking you seriously. You sell them don't you?

If you like to push crossbows..buy the product. If you are like me..google the xbow manufacturers pushing this. Look under Registered Agents at registeredagentinfo.com

*find out the holding company and partnerships..google all the products sold under those names and boycott all the products..bowling balls..ski's...motorycycle goods..camping stuff* spread the word through all the archery club members . Worked in Texas so far...got it shot down this season with this ground swell by BOWHUNTERS.

I am.....I got 5 kids who won't spend a dime with those companies.

Look em up...write them..tell them...then boycott.

Put your money where your mouth is...vote with your dollar.


----------



## grizzl

Tenpoint TL-7 said:


> grizzl youre' number 3 is wrong for me. I shot at deer with a compound bow at 25 yards and in and the bow was just wounding them. The compound bow that I was useing did'nt work so I bought a crossbow and the now and the deer are droping like flyes.


Thats true. Xbows shot at normal ranges are deadly. Thats what I meant by a higher kill per shot ratio. Xbows are efficient.

My point is that *2 more months* of *modern weapon hunting* increases hunter success (which is good on MDA or Damage tagged areas)

On private land, MLD, DMAP...use whatever/whenever. In national forests and public land where deer herds are more susceptible to pressure and herds are not managed, I'd like to keep the seasons as it with Xbows used during general season.

Look at the stats..harvests are way up. I trophy hunt and mature deer sightings are down. I think the next step is antler restrictions if this keeps up and the herd's average age gets to 3 years or less..

If they OK crossbows then impose anter restructions so bucks can attain the 4-5 year age that I hunt. Too many young bucks are shot off now in Va

at replace xxx with w's xxx.scribd.com/doc/6360222/fundaments-of-crossbow-dynamics-and-usagepage


----------



## grizzl

grizzl said:


> at replace xxx with w's xxx.scribd.com/doc/6360222/fundaments-of-crossbow-dynamics-and-usagepage


Look at the harvest tables and usage for Virginia -not the rehetoric. 
61,495 archery went to 75,000 trending up. Simple fact is this is not new hunters just hunters moving from general season into archery only= longer modern weapon season. They don't/won't show total harvest numbers which are up.

More deer killed. Less deer reaching maturity. 

Good to some..not good for others.


----------



## grizzl

*Archers-did you know*

Bear, Jennings, Golden Eagle, Brave, and Satellite Archery Crossbows were aquired by Escalade Sports sold through Cabela,Gander Mountain.
Escalade Sports also makes;
Pools
Basketballs
Boardgames
Fitness equipment
Table Tennis
etc

Lots of products. See their web page for a product listing.

Then there is PSE and Barnett.....:wink:

Know where your dollars are going.


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> Look at the harvest tables and usage for Virginia -not the rehetoric.
> 61,495 archery went to 75,000 trending up. Simple fact is this is not new hunters just hunters moving from general season into archery only= longer modern weapon season. They don't/won't show total harvest numbers which are up.
> 
> More deer killed. Less deer reaching maturity.
> 
> Good to some..not good for others.


LOL !!! Basically unlimited does for the whole state, 3 bucks and we're going short of deer because of a few thousand xbow kills? What are you smoking? Gee maybe if we get 75,000 additional archery license sales VDGIF might quit giving bow season to the ML hunters.


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> Bear, Jennings, Golden Eagle, Brave, and Satellite Archery Crossbows were aquired by Escalade Sports sold through Cabela,Gander Mountain.
> Escalade Sports also makes;
> Pools
> Basketballs
> Boardgames
> Fitness equipment
> Table Tennis
> etc
> 
> Lots of products. See their web page for a product listing.
> 
> Then there is PSE and Barnett.....:wink:
> 
> Know where your dollars are going.


Don't forget Bowtech they make the evil xbow too. And a mighty fine one I might add. I have 2 of them.
And we sure don't want any sporting goods companies to make a profit and stay in business to continue making goods for us to use. Nope we don't want any of that!


----------



## bigbuckdn

OH_Hunter24 said:


> That wont happen :zip: :wink: :tongue:
> I wish I could offer up an answer. However, PA just got crossbows legalized and if I'm not mistaken NY is not far from that either...so I'm sure more states will follow. Here in Ohio they've been legal since I can remember, so I've grown up with the notion that crossbows do not hurt the herd.
> 
> In my opinion, it will mean more hunters, which is a great thing. In this past month's American Hunting magazine there was a statistic that showed big game hunting declining 26% (I believe the time frame was 1996-2006). If crossbows can get a few more people into the woods then I hardly see a down side.


for this reason alone I gave up my fight against xbows I used to say give them there own season but most of the pro xbow people in states like N.Y. are guys that only gun hunt these guys think that a xbow is a gun and it will get them in the woods during bow season. half of this group don't even want a bow season. But again we all need to stick together for the greater good of the sport so i for one still don't support xbow during bow but i don't oppose it either. In pa I am going to give it a try just to see what it is all about. 
my fear is not what the xbow will do it is what some of the slob hunters from the city (new york city) that hunt state land around me during gun the woods are not safe I go upstate. what will the woods be like


----------



## grizzl

BigBirdVA said:


> LOL !!! Basically unlimited does for the whole state, 3 bucks and we're going short of deer because of a few thousand xbow kills? What are you smoking? Gee maybe if we get 75,000 additional archery license sales VDGIF might quit giving bow season to the ML hunters.


Escalade's stock has sunk to the level of toilet paper. If only 30% of registered vertical Archers boycott and talk down these products we can put them into insolvency.

At 3-d shoots, Clubs..etc talk down, down,down. This company has to ask itself if its worth it to mess with the season *I* fought for and risk the fate of Smith and Wesson.

Remember when S&W joined Clinton's gun control...we drove the BRITs to sell it back to 'mericans by boycotting THEM

Guess what..Barnett is a Brit company too

PSE is owned by a Faster Company that does Aerospace Mill work..
just so happens I'm an engineer with a Aerospace company...ya know..Source Selection..DSOR...all that "choosing" companies and or designing in a product or designing it out...

These companies flood these forums with mouth pieces to talk up thier product and talk down people who disagree...calling me names and elitist.

Well...I'm through talking to mouth pieces. Anybody who wants to PRESERVE Archery Only Season as Vertical Bows only...here is the roadmap...

Vote with your dollars...email Escalade. If you don't know who to email or write or know WHAT ELSE Xbow Lobbyists Company produce...contact me...

Hey ESCALADE...How many Xbows do you have to sell to equate to the profit margin on one POOL?????

I'm talking........BIG TIME.


----------



## grizzl

*Freedom of Chioce*



BigBirdVA said:


> LOL !!! Basically unlimited does for the whole state, 3 bucks and we're going short of deer because of a few thousand xbow kills? What are you smoking? Gee maybe if we get 75,000 additional archery license sales VDGIF might quit giving bow season to the ML hunters.


Escalade's stock has sunk to the level of toilet paper. If only 30% of registered vertical Archers boycott and talk down these products we can put them into insolvency.

At 3-d shoots, Clubs..etc talk down, down,down. This company has to ask itself if its worth it to mess with the season *I* fought for and risk the fate of Smith and Wesson.

Remember when S&W joined Clinton's gun control...we drove the BRITs to sell it back to 'mericans by boycotting THEM

Guess what..Barnett is a Brit company too

PSE is owned by a Faster Company that does Aerospace Mill work..
just so happens I'm an engineer with a Aerospace company...ya know..Source Selection..DSOR...all that "choosing" companies and or designing in a product or designing it out...

These companies flood these forums with mouth pieces to talk up thier product and talk down people who disagree...calling me names and elitist.

Well...I'm through talking to mouth pieces. Anybody who wants to PRESERVE Archery Only Season as Vertical Bows only...here is the roadmap...

Vote with your dollars...email Escalade. If you don't know who to email or write or know WHAT ELSE Xbow Lobbyists Company produce...contact me...

Hey ESCALADE...How many Xbows do you have to sell to equate to the profit margin on one POOL?????

I'm talking........BIG TIME.


----------



## grizzl

*freedom of chioce*



BigBirdVA said:


> Don't forget Bowtech they make the evil xbow too. And a mighty fine one I might add. I have 2 of them.
> And we sure don't want any sporting goods companies to make a profit and stay in business to continue making goods for us to use. Nope we don't want any of that!


I don't use "their" goods and won't spend any money with "them" either. There are plenty of manufactures who don't want to encourage this kind of hunter infighting for a profit. I'll support THOSE products and talk UP thier Products. If type 1 goes out of business..so much the better


----------



## grizzl

BigBirdVA said:


> LOL !!! Basically unlimited does for the whole state, 3 bucks and we're going short of deer because of a few thousand xbow kills? What are you smoking? Gee maybe if we get 75,000 additional archery license sales VDGIF might quit giving bow season to the ML hunters.



Not letting deer attain age maturity...killing off too early..if its brown its down....
Its all about #'s killed vs a balanced herd. Thanks for spelling out your position! Why don't you propose eliminating the restrictions on Killing deer with Spots!!! More killed....good thing right?


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> Not letting deer attain age maturity...killing off too early..if its brown its down....
> Its all about #'s killed vs a balanced herd. Thanks for spelling out your position! Why don't you propose eliminating the restrictions on Killing deer with Spots!!! More killed....good thing right?


Waaaaaa........ You're not going to get squat without laws. Might as well give up on that. Besides it's hard to judge a deer with 15 hounds on it's behind isn't it? :mg:

But it's all the xbow hunters fault. :iamwithstupid:


----------



## 20ftup

the x bow is a primitive weapon, but what I fear most from them is people thinkin they are easy, I see people every year grab there rifles and head to the deer woods, they havent fired a shot since last season I fear the same with x bow, to be efficient with any weapon you must shoot it and often
The x bow is no more a modern weapon than a compound if someone wants to learn to shoot one and its legal I'll put em in a stand I got no issues with the weapon just those who think they dont need to practice


----------



## grizzl

BigBirdVA said:


> Waaaaaa........ You're not going to get squat without laws. Might as well give up on that. Besides it's hard to judge a deer with 15 hounds on it's behind isn't it? :mg:
> 
> But it's all the xbow hunters fault. :iamwithstupid:


*Antler Restrictions = Good* thing when ya'all keep killing fawns.

Divide an conquer..appeal to lowest common denominator. Those that don't want to put in the effort to learn the animal or develop a skill. No use arguing with those folks. Like asking a crack addict to give up his addiction. 

Go for the dealers....pushers

Expose them...talk about it at every 3d shoot or camp fire. Confront them at Product and Trade shows at their tables. Avoid the vertical bow brands and accessories of Xbow manufacturers because of the xbow intrusion into OUR season

If you want BOW only seasons...Buy from BOW only suppliers. This is a growing movement in my circle of archers....a storm is coming.

There are allot more Archers than Xbow'ers. VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS!

Wasn't BigBird a 6ft Mentally challenged Yellow Animal? Just wondering


----------



## ShootToKill10

I have been wondering the same thing? it just doesnt make sense to me


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> *Antler Restrictions = Good* thing when ya'all keep killing fawns.
> 
> Divide an conquer..appeal to lowest common denominator. Those that don't want to put in the effort to learn the animal or develop a skill. No use arguing with those folks. Like asking a crack addict to give up his addiction.
> 
> Go for the dealers....pushers
> 
> Expose them...talk about it at every 3d shoot or camp fire. Confront them at Product and Trade shows at their tables. Avoid the vertical bow brands and accessories of Xbow manufacturers because of the xbow intrusion into OUR season
> 
> If you want BOW only seasons...Buy from BOW only suppliers. This is a growing movement in my circle of archers....a storm is coming.
> 
> There are allot more Archers than Xbow'ers. VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS!
> 
> Wasn't BigBird a 6ft Mentally challenged Yellow Animal? Just wondering


Define "ya'all" would you? Back it up with some numbers and facts and not just "I think, I feel, therefore I am". 

*Note* "Think" a term used loosely here for obvious reasons. 

Bow only suppliers? Uh xbows are legal here. You lost get over it. Lets see how do xbows get here? UPS? Lets boycot UPS and everything else no matter how it fits in. Lets boycot VDGIF they allowed it. So don't buy a license and hunt here. There problem solved. 

"Grizzl" Isn't that a failed attempt at spelling Grizzly by someone that didn't finish grade school?


----------



## grizzl

BigBirdVA said:


> Define "ya'all" would you? Back it up with some numbers and facts and not just "I think, I feel, therefore I am".
> 
> *Note* "Think" a term used loosely here for obvious reasons.
> 
> Bow only suppliers? Uh xbows are legal here. You lost get over it. Lets see how do xbows get here? UPS? Lets boycot UPS and everything else no matter how it fits in. Lets boycot VDGIF they allowed it. So don't buy a license and hunt here. There problem solved.
> 
> "Grizzl" Isn't that a failed attempt at spelling Grizzly by someone that didn't finish grade school?


http://www.investorguide.com/stock.cgi?ticker=ESCA

*Escalade Incorporated *. 52 week High WAS $9.15 a share.
Today its worth *.44 CENTS* a share

Going...going..GONE SOON

Jennings...Bear..Satelite... DON'T BUY THEM!!! (If for no other reason than you won't have a warranty soon)

Who is next...BowTech Aka EXTREME TECHNOLOGIES, INC. Diamond Archery

Company Name: Extreme Technologies, Inc
Address: 90554 Hwy 99 N, Eugene, OR 97402-9624 
Alt Business Name: Bow Techs
Location Type: Single Location
Est. Annual Sales: $22,800,000
*Est. # of Employees: 200*
Est. Empl. at Loc.: 200
Year Started: 1999
State of Incorp: OR
SIC #Code: 3949
Contact's Name: John Strasheim
Contact's Title: President
NAICS: Sporting and Athletic Goods Manufacturing

Just Xbow Manufacturers..they are the ones flooding these forums with talkers and messing with a tradition.

Remember Smith & Wesson (British owned at the time)..they signed on with Clinton on gun control in 1995....they were boycotted too...went insolvent and had to sell the company before any body bought from them again.

An avalanche starts with a single pebble


----------



## Jim C

20ftup said:


> the x bow is a primitive weapon, but what I fear most from them is people thinkin they are easy, I see people every year grab there rifles and head to the deer woods, they havent fired a shot since last season I fear the same with x bow, to be efficient with any weapon you must shoot it and often
> The x bow is no more a modern weapon than a compound if someone wants to learn to shoot one and its legal I'll put em in a stand I got no issues with the weapon just those who think they dont need to practice


I was a staff pro in a huge shop for 5 years, then along with my wife and a couple of friends ran a smaller pro shop with the biggest range in SW Ohio for another 4.5 years. I cannot tell you how many people showed up in the three day period before opening day with COMPOUNDS that needed new cables or to buy new arrows. If you think those people were practicing before the season you are sadly mistaken


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> http://www.investorguide.com/stock.cgi?ticker=ESCA
> 
> *Escalade Incorporated *. 52 week High WAS $9.15 a share.
> Today its worth *.44 CENTS* a share
> 
> Going...going..GONE SOON
> 
> Jennings...Bear..Satelite... DON'T BUY THEM!!! (If for no other reason than you won't have a warranty soon)
> 
> Who is next...BowTech Aka EXTREME TECHNOLOGIES, INC. Diamond Archery
> 
> Company Name: Extreme Technologies, Inc
> Address: 90554 Hwy 99 N, Eugene, OR 97402-9624
> Alt Business Name: Bow Techs
> Location Type: Single Location
> Est. Annual Sales: $22,800,000
> *Est. # of Employees: 200*
> Est. Empl. at Loc.: 200
> Year Started: 1999
> State of Incorp: OR
> SIC #Code: 3949
> Contact's Name: John Strasheim
> Contact's Title: President
> NAICS: Sporting and Athletic Goods Manufacturing
> 
> Just Xbow Manufacturers..they are the ones flooding these forums with talkers and messing with a tradition.
> 
> Remember Smith & Wesson (British owned at the time)..they signed on with Clinton on gun control in 1995....they were boycotted too...went insolvent and had to sell the company before any body bought from them again.
> 
> An avalanche starts with a single pebble


You're having a bad dream on BT. Pinch yourself and get back to reality. 

BTW, Savage owns BT now. You're a little behind. Oops! 

Got to love it when someone that thinks they know it all doesn't.

Stryker came out with a new model xbow this year and sales are booming ! Guess their single Stryker pebble turned into a $$$ avalanche for them. Xbows are here to stay, get used to it.

http://blog.kingsoutdoorworld.com/2007/10/15/savage-sports-buys-out-bowtech-archery/


----------



## grizzl

BigBirdVA said:


> You're having a bad dream on BT. Pinch yourself and get back to reality.
> 
> BTW, Savage owns BT now. You're a little behind. Oops!
> 
> Got to love it when someone that thinks they know it all doesn't.
> 
> Stryker came out with a new model xbow this year and sales are booming ! Guess their single Stryker pebble turned into a $$$ avalanche for them. Xbows are here to stay, get used to it.
> 
> http://blog.kingsoutdoorworld.com/2007/10/15/savage-sports-buys-out-bowtech-archery/


One loser purchasing another loser. A firearm Mfg'r in Taxachusettes...HAAAA! 

You sure keep up to speed on Xbow stuff don't ya. Like I said..a plant..a mouth piece..company rep whose job is to talk up the trash. Hope you got a day job too  


Watch and wait...you'll see. Add Savage to 'THE" list. Thanks 'bird. I'll make sure to mention you to Ron Coburn in the mailing.


----------



## grizzl

BigBirdVA said:


> Xbows are here to stay, get used to it.


They have their place. General season..even own dedicated out of general but NOT concurrent with Early Archery. Ya'all got GREEDY! We beat ya back in Texas this year!

LSBA polled Texas archers and 95% were VIOLENTLY against it for early archery. That's where the boycott got rollin....

It stopped xbows 2 years running...Florida too. OK on PRIVATE LAND..who cares if you own the land...stay off PUBLIC

Virginia is a sellout. Snuck it in....its NOT the Virginia I lived in from 62-2001.

May take a awhile to fix it back legislatively...but in this economy it may be much easier to bankrupt the sob's.


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> They have their place. General season..even own dedicated out of general but NOT concurrent with Early Archery. Ya'all got GREEDY! We beat ya back in Texas this year!
> 
> LSBA polled Texas archers and 95% were VIOLENTLY against it for early archery. That's where the boycott got rollin....
> 
> It stopped xbows 2 years running...Florida too. OK on PRIVATE LAND..who cares if you own the land...stay off PUBLIC
> 
> Virginia is a sellout. Snuck it in....its NOT the Virginia I lived in from 62-2001.
> 
> May take a awhile to fix it back legislatively...but in this economy it may be much easier to bankrupt the sob's.


It finally went forward, it's not going back. Pinch yourself again. Just more useless hate talk. :thumbs_do


----------



## crockett dp

*hey grizzl*

grizzl Are you working for peta because you shure have someukey::beer::angry::angel::teeth::smile: like I said before its all about a quick clean ethical kill not about what you use to get the job done the critters your after dont know the diff and if you keep fighting other hunters we all will give up huntin then it will be all on YOU


----------



## AKRuss

Local hunting politics seems to suggest that adding crossbows to archery season somewhat limits archery season. I've never been convinced that's much of an argument as we really don't have all that many archers up here. In recent years we've added black powder to a "primitive weapons" season. I've never had a problem with an individual's methods as long as there's enough critters and seasons to go around. Further, I don't think using a 30-06 is any better or worse (?) than a bow - just different tools. 

I've always thought I'd give crossbows and black powder a try but never had. There's only so much time!


----------



## oakridgehunter

grizzl, Barnett, as far as crossbow sales and manufacturing, is an American company with components made in a few western states and Michigan. They are then assembled in Florida and then distributed for sale. The Corporation headquarters are also in Florida. I am very much considering the Wildcat C5 because it is one of the very few that fits my requirements as a bowhunter that has Parkinson's Disease and other disabilitating injuries and afflictions. I have had to miss 5 years of bowhunting because I could no longer use my Darton compound but finally have received my permit and hope to get some hunts in with my daughter and grandson before my circumstances require me to give up bowhunting altogether. I have bowhunted for over 30 years and I will very much miss it when I am forced to do so. I am very thankful that a crossbow will allow me to hunt for the little time I have left to do so.


----------



## twiant

If you shoot a crossbow and dont have a medical reason then i have no respect for you as a hunter and ur admitting defeat. Then people go on how its there tag they can do what they want with it, good for you. Just because you have a scope and a 70yard mark doesnt mean you can kill a deer that far. And if you dont agree then p.m. me


----------



## crockett dp

*Wow*

another anti hunter here (twiant ) maybe there should be a seperate seasons for compound bows too think about what your wanting fight about we are all hunter lets respect that some what


----------



## OH_Hunter24

twiant said:


> Just because you have a scope and a 70yard mark doesnt mean you can kill a deer that far.


Doesn't that kind of hurt the anti-crossbow argument from the archery elitists? Thank you for admitting that crossbows do not mean an automatic kill if you do not practice.


----------



## BigBirdVA

OH_Hunter24 said:


> Doesn't that kind of hurt the anti-crossbow argument from the archery elitists? Thank you for admitting that crossbows do not mean an automatic kill if you do not practice.


You can't make a winning argument out of a loosing one no matter how you twist it. The days of the emotionally based "my season" are coming to an end. And it's because states finally see past things like the post you replied to.


----------



## Cold Weather

Agreed

I never knew the archery season was MINE.

Let those who want xbows use them. I enjoy all archery and bowhunting, and even though I do own and use an xbow, this upcoming season I plan to bowhunt with a recurve bow, Black Diamond broadheads, and alluminum arrows.

But if the next guy wants to use a xbow, he has my blesssing and support.

It's all archery and bowhunting..

Cold Weather


----------



## Oceans12

Let them hunt, but adjust the season so as to maximize the opportunity that the public is allowed to hunt. In Alabama, for example, you can kill 2 deer per day with a rifle including a doe. The herd has been under a tremendous amount of pressure there. Low deer numbers are starting to evidence themselves.


----------



## grizzl

crockett dp said:


> grizzl Are you working for peta because you shure have someukey::beer::angry::angel::teeth::smile: like I said before its all about a quick clean ethical kill not about what you use to get the job done the critters your after dont know the diff and if you keep fighting other hunters we all will give up huntin then it will be all on YOU


I'm sure you are a looker

No.. its about keeping Greed and money out of MY American tradition. Keep them out of *early Archery Season* is My stance and I will fight AGAIN to keep it that way or get it back anyway I can

People think the battle is one dimensional..buy an xbow or not. These companies have stuck their fist into the heart of the most fanatic sports group there is...That group fought and won the Archery only season They are older, more affluent and MANY hold positions of power and authority where subjectivity can determine whether a supplier company gets millions of dollars and they patronize friends and boycott enemies. 

The Xbow can be used in General season and anytime on private land. Public land is for the PUBLIC and *not for sale* by politicians.

Point to ponder. PSE is owned by Precision Castparts Corp that machines MilSpec fasteners. They compete for work in the aerospace industry

Google the referenced articles for a complete rendition.

*(Bloomberg, 3/03) *
Factory worker Paul Bartholomew shapes titanium in one of the first steps of building each fighter jet. Jobs like his may be in peril Co-workers at Precision Castparts Corp.’s Wyman-Gordon forge, a 1 million-square-foot plant 40 miles west of Boston, ask him about their future. Precision Castparts books $3.5 million in sales on each fighter, said he just hopes that “people in Washington make the right decision.” 

*(Reuters, 3/02)*
"We are working with the Air Force to understand their plan forward," he added. XXXXX last month notified some suppliers that the company would start shutdown activities on March 1, but Grizzle gave no further details on Monday. Pentagon spokesman Chris Isleib said the fighter was part of a strategic budget review now underway. "The future of all programs will not be decided until the review is complete and the budget has been rolled out," he added. 

Thats all I have to say in an open forum. *You can bet your 401K "we" are networking..talking and fighting back.*


----------



## grizzl

oakridgehunter said:


> grizzl, Barnett, as far as crossbow sales and manufacturing, is an American company with components made in a few western states and Michigan. They are then assembled in Florida and then distributed for sale. The Corporation headquarters are also in Florida. I am very much considering the Wildcat C5 because it is one of the very few that fits my requirements as a bowhunter that has Parkinson's Disease and other disabilitating injuries and afflictions. I have had to miss 5 years of bowhunting because I could no longer use my Darton compound but finally have received my permit and hope to get some hunts in with my daughter and grandson before my circumstances require me to give up bowhunting altogether. I have bowhunted for over 30 years and I will very much miss it when I am forced to do so. I am very thankful that a crossbow will allow me to hunt for the little time I have left to do so.


*You meet every criteria set to use the Xbow in any season now*! I would welcome you and help put you on animals! Please do not think my message pertains to you or older hunters who cannot physically use a vertical.

I am happy you can continue to hunt! If I Inadvertently offended you, please accept my apology.

In my early post I postured that the xbows have expanded their niche out of Greed by offering those not willing to put forth *ANY effort to conform to the rules*. Instead, the seek to change the rules with lobby $$ to suit their profit desires.

I'm pointing it out to them that the consequences of this action may be prohibitive in areas they NEVER considered.


----------



## Cold Weather

> No.. its about keeping Greed and money out of MY American tradition. Keep them out of early Archery Season is My stance and I will fight AGAIN to keep it that way or get it back anyway I can


great position. Keeping archery equipment out of archery season.

Cold Weather


----------



## BigBirdVA

grizzl said:


> I'm sure you are a looker
> 
> No.. its about keeping Greed and money out of MY American tradition. Keep them out of *early Archery Season* is My stance and I will fight AGAIN to keep it that way or get it back anyway I can
> 
> People think the battle is one dimensional..buy an xbow or not. These companies have stuck their fist into the heart of the most fanatic sports group there is...That group fought and won the Archery only season They are older, more affluent and MANY hold positions of power and authority where subjectivity can determine whether a supplier company gets millions of dollars and they patronize friends and boycott enemies.
> 
> The Xbow can be used in General season and anytime on private land. Public land is for the PUBLIC and *not for sale* by politicians.
> 
> Point to ponder. PSE is owned by Precision Castparts Corp that machines MilSpec fasteners. They compete for work in the aerospace industry
> 
> Google the referenced articles for a complete rendition.
> 
> *(Bloomberg, 3/03) *
> Factory worker Paul Bartholomew shapes titanium in one of the first steps of building each fighter jet. Jobs like his may be in peril Co-workers at Precision Castparts Corp.’s Wyman-Gordon forge, a 1 million-square-foot plant 40 miles west of Boston, ask him about their future. Precision Castparts books $3.5 million in sales on each fighter, said he just hopes that “people in Washington make the right decision.”
> 
> *(Reuters, 3/02)*
> "We are working with the Air Force to understand their plan forward," he added. XXXXX last month notified some suppliers that the company would start shutdown activities on March 1, but Grizzle gave no further details on Monday. Pentagon spokesman Chris Isleib said the fighter was part of a strategic budget review now underway. "The future of all programs will not be decided until the review is complete and the budget has been rolled out," he added.
> 
> Thats all I have to say in an open forum. *You can bet your 401K "we" are networking..talking and fighting back.*


I only have one thing to say to that.............













BTW your tradition died when Allen invented the compound. I heard PCC make some really nice Tinfoil hats too.


----------

