# Form Check



## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

Any advice on form? I recently installed a d loop about an inch longer than previous. I felt like my draw was too short.

I’ll take any thoughts on anything you see that might be an issue. 

Thanks










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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

Looks pretty good. Are your groups ok? I would suggest not sticking your thumb up in the air where a broadhead can chop it off and BTW tuck in your shirt.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ryder2014 said:


> Any advice on form? I recently installed a d loop about an inch longer than previous. I felt like my draw was too short.
> 
> I’ll take any thoughts on anything you see that might be an issue.
> 
> ...


1) release hand too high. When you move the peep HIGHER up the bowstring, release hand SHOULD land at bottom of ear. See photo of John Dudley.
2) nock too high, which means the peep is too low. Want the nock to land about 3/4 inch below corner of mouth.



Yeah, yeah. String gotta touch nose. Well, your shoulders are extremely open, you have a large bend in the bow arm, and your hips are extremely open.
So, get your shoulders much LESS open, get shoulders more square (parallel to the arrow) while at full draw, and YAY....you get to try a LONGER draw length.

3) TOP of bow hand thumb is WAY too high. GEt the top of bow hand thumb (the joint) at the SAME height as top of two level shoulders.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I would have you square up your shoulders, MORE parallel to the arrow, when at full draw.
With a 1/2-inch LONGER draw length, you can still TOUCH your nose, AND move the peep UP the bowstring, so the arrow can land LOWER on your face, more like Dudley.



RED triangle is your currently draw length, with your bow hand thumb pointed STRAIGHT up, with nock at the corner of your mouth...ok, just BARELY below corner of mouth (see detail of your HEAD).
So, in the doctored photo, I got your thumb DOWN to horizontal,
so, in the doctored photo, I moved your peep UP the bowstring, so the nock NOW lands about 3/4 inch BELOW corner of mouth, more like Dudley,
so, in the doctored photo, I moved your release hand, all the way to the BOTTOM of your ear, more like Dudley (release hand LOWER, will have you more MUCH more steady at full draw).

You want the bottom of the thumb (joint), and you want that horizontal thumb, to be at the same height as the tops of your shoulders, again, for holding MUCH more steady.

In your original photo, your bow hand thumb is SKY high above your shoulders. Lousy for holding steady at full draw.


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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

That’s great info. I just started opening up like that because if I tried to square my shoulders up my bow hand elbow was really bent.

1. Anchor down/ Peep Up
2. Moves Sight up
3. Then bow arm can lower down

You are correct my pin float is greater than I’d like. I wonder if lowered bow arm would help with the sensation of my bow feeling heavy.

I may look at a bow with easily adjustable draw length. Current bow needs new mods and I’m not sure I want to mess with that. Until that happens I’ll work on the other stuff.

I’m impressed with your ability to dissect that much with just a pic!


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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

Does this look better as far as anchor point and bow arm height? It takes me 20 seconds to get set up there.

At this lower anchor it felt like the string was a mile away from my nose. I assume longer draw length or longer length bow would correct that.


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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ryder2014 said:


> Does this look better as far as anchor point and bow arm height? It takes me 20 seconds to get set up there.
> 
> At this lower anchor it felt like the string was a mile away from my nose. I assume longer draw length or longer length bow would correct that.
> 
> ...


Yes, go longer on the draw length. New photo is better. Try 1/2inch longer on the draw length, and adjust the rotation of your upper body (rotate shoulders more parallel to the arrow, while at full draw).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ryder2014 said:


> That’s great info. I just started opening up like that because if I tried to square my shoulders up my bow hand elbow was really bent.
> 
> 1. Anchor down/ Peep Up
> 2. Moves Sight up
> ...


Used to work in a medical devices startup company. That means looking at lots of x-rays, lots of MRI images, understanding how bones and joints should "really" line up, and how bones and muscles interact with each other.
That's actually what I am doing, with the photo. Doing a "digital dissection" and re-arranging your parts into better alignments. I figure where your shoulder joints are in the photo, the angles of your bones, and then, chop up the photo and re-assemble the parts of the photo, into a much better position, better angles, better alignment.


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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

I did my graduate studies in biomechanics. I mainly focused on the lower body. I worked in sports medicine for many years and focused on baseball and did very similar film work on breaking down throwing mechanics.

I’m fairly new to archery so I am trying to learn more about the most efficient body positions. I’ve read some of your other posts and I’m getting there but I have a ways to go.

I really do appreciate what you do on here and hopefully i can make these changes.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ryder2014 said:


> I did my graduate studies in biomechanics. I mainly focused on the lower body. I worked in sports medicine for many years and focused on baseball and did very similar film work on breaking down throwing mechanics.
> 
> I’m fairly new to archery so I am trying to learn more about the most efficient body positions. I’ve read some of your other posts and I’m getting there but I have a ways to go.
> 
> ...


Excellent. I was working on artificial discs (prototypes) for cervical discs and lumbar discs. So skeletal alignment, optimal leverage angles...biomechanics is where it's at.

So, the bow hand, this hand configuration seems to work most efficiently for most humans.



The idea is to rotate the knuckles to 45 degrees. WHY? To get the thenar emminence mostly off the grip (thumb muscle). Keep thumb bones horizontal, and keep the thumb pointed parallel to the arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ryder2014 said:


> I did my graduate studies in biomechanics. I mainly focused on the lower body. I worked in sports medicine for many years and focused on baseball and did very similar film work on breaking down throwing mechanics.
> 
> I’m fairly new to archery so I am trying to learn more about the most efficient body positions. I’ve read some of your other posts and I’m getting there but I have a ways to go.
> 
> ...


Bow arm, and the collar bones, keep both all parallel to the arrow, in terms of height.
So, now your upper body (collar bones) are really open. Would like to see you in a longer draw length, so you can rotate your upper body (collar bones) more parallel, for better "biomechanics".



Green hat photo, his shoulders, his collar bones are severely open. This really "open" posture (compass needle direction for the shoulders) is way out of parallel to the arrow, and is biomechnically weak. The blue t-shirt photo, the shoulder blades, are much closer to parallel to the arrow, for a biomechanically stronger posture. A more "narrow" triangle, from a camera / video angle pointing straight down. For you to do this, you would need a longer draw length module. The blue t-shirt posture, relies on more skeletal resistance to hold steady at full draw. The Green Cap photo, due to the severe angles, requires much more muscle involvement. You want the least muscle involvement, and more skeletal alignment involvement.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Ryder2014 said:


> I did my graduate studies in biomechanics. I mainly focused on the lower body. I worked in sports medicine for many years and focused on baseball and did very similar film work on breaking down throwing mechanics.
> 
> I’m fairly new to archery so I am trying to learn more about the most efficient body positions. I’ve read some of your other posts and I’m getting there but I have a ways to go.
> 
> ...


This resource is pretty good. https://www.pioneerarchers.com/Member Portal/Info/Biomechanics.pdf


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## fgignac (Aug 21, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> This resource is pretty good. https://www.pioneerarchers.com/Member Portal/Info/Biomechanics.pdf




Wow, that document looks really interesting. Thanks for posting it. I look forward to reading it


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

fgignac said:


> Wow, that document looks really interesting. Thanks for posting it. I look forward to reading it


Yeah you'll see a lot of the same info all over AT in one format or another. It's been around quite a while but this is one of the earlier compiled sources, that's freely available on the internet anyway, that I've seen.


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## Mineisbigger27 (Jan 3, 2012)

Nuts and Bolts,

I really enjoyed your breakdown of that photo. I have been measured for drawlength so many times it makes me wonder what it actually is. I was measured at 30.5" and shot that for years but it never felt right, then was measured at 31" with the same results, was then measured at 31.5" by a known and respected coach and shot that for years. Looking at my pictures it seems that my form and draw length is still out of wack. I have two questions

1. Do you know any quality archery coaches that you trust in NY 
2. If I send you pictures by PM could you disect them and help me tune my form and draw length? I would pay you for you troubles. I bought your DVD years ago and it has been a great source .

Thank for the help
Bret


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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

nuts&bolts said:


> Bow arm, and the collar bones, keep both all parallel to the arrow, in terms of height.
> So, now your upper body (collar bones) are really open. Would like to see you in a longer draw length, so you can rotate your upper body (collar bones) more parallel, for better "biomechanics".
> 
> 
> ...













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## Ryder2014 (Mar 8, 2016)

Ryder2014 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk












Disclaimer this is a 2” shorter bow (30” ata) than last pics, I’m using a handheld resistance release, and Draw length is .5” longer.

So I feel the 2nd picture is ‘better’ form. I lowered my anchor point to where it seems it probably should be. However my anchor feels very un-anchored and I can’t hold steady. This anchor raises my poi 12” or more at 20 yards.

1st pic anchor feels much more natural with nose touching the string but string angle is steep so it runs behind corner of my mouth. I guess due to short ata. This position gets my sight really low and bow hand way above my shoulders. Similar issues to before. Although I’m shooting quite well at 20 & 30 with resistance release. Not sure how it will be further back as bow arm gets even higher. 

Should I work on the lower anchor point to get it more natural? Or any other suggestions? Like get a longer bow


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