# Any scores yet from Indoor Natls locations that shot March 6-8?



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Anybody have any scoring links yet for venues that shot USA Archery Indoor Nationals this weekend March 6-8?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

lksseven said:


> Anybody have any scoring links yet for venues that shot USA Archery Indoor Nationals this weekend March 6-8?


we stil haven't seen anything from MSU from LAST week let alone this week. normally its a couple days before the results from a weekend shoot are posted


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Tulare is way behind.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Jim C said:


> we stil haven't seen anything from MSU from LAST week let alone this week. normally its a couple days before the results from a weekend shoot are posted


Yeah, I know, big picture, big tent, let the current methodology stand, but geez, what other sports conduct national championships by comparing scores mailed in. Compete and in a month or so we'll let you know what happened in a gigantic yawn. It just sticks in my craw.


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## MIshooter (Sep 19, 2014)

Jim C said:


> we stil haven't seen anything from MSU from LAST week let alone this week. normally its a couple days before the results from a weekend shoot are posted


Could be waiting to compile both weeks together instead of releasing two separate lists


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

MIshooter said:


> Could be waiting to compile both weeks together instead of releasing two separate lists


yeah that is what I thought. I don't think they did that last year though but I could be wrong on that


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Yeah, I know, big picture, big tent, let the current methodology stand, but geez, what other sports conduct national championships by comparing scores mailed in. Compete and in a month or so we'll let you know what happened in a gigantic yawn. It just sticks in my craw.


It should be a condition of hosting that each venue compiles and provides scores to USArchery within a week. If they can go through the trouble to host, they can do this too. The only reason they don't is that it's not mandatory.


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## MIshooter (Sep 19, 2014)

Jim C said:


> yeah that is what I thought. I don't think they did that last year though but I could be wrong on that


Were there two weekends last year?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

mholz said:


> Tulare is way behind.


Tulare NEVER posts scores.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

As an FYI...(and stepping on my soapbox)

Doing a multiple site tournament and compiling the scores in real time or near real time is not hard to do. Both Ianseo and Rcherz have shown the software has the ability to do that.

Ianseo is free, but it requires a small bit of work to set the tournament up. Rcherz isn't free, but it has pre-set templates to set things up.

Both can import spreadsheets to create your master shooters list. Both will display the results easily. Both compile scores and shooters lists easier than making some poor office drone import the scores into a pre-formatted spreadsheet, then send it off to USA Archery, then a USA Archery office drone does a merge of the spreadsheets that have been sent in.

Disputing and verifying scores is the roughest part. But unofficial scores should be able to be posted.

There is a small debate on whether or not sites should post up scores to prevent later tournament venue attendees from dropping out. My take on that is - shoot the tournament. 

Anyways, I'm off the soapbox now...

-Steve


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> As an FYI...(and stepping on my soapbox)
> 
> Doing a multiple site tournament and compiling the scores in real time or near real time is not hard to do. Both Ianseo and Rcherz have shown the software has the ability to do that.
> 
> ...


Agree "shoot the tournament". To 'not shoot' because one of your peers shot well in a previous weekend ... what a pathetic mindset.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> There is a small debate on whether or not sites should post up scores to prevent later tournament venue attendees from dropping out. *My take on that is - shoot the tournament*.


Amen.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Agree "shoot the tournament". To 'not shoot' because one of your peers shot well in a previous weekend ... what a pathetic mindset.


But that has happened in the past. And that mindset has even been argued here on AT before.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

lksseven said:


> Agree "shoot the tournamnet". To 'not shoot' because one of your peers shot well in a previous weekend ... what a pathetic mindset.


I can't see anyone really dropping out for fear of being beat, I could see people being concerned about the later shooters having the advantage of knowing the numbers they need, but you still have to shoot it like anyone else, and I don't think most archers try and coast past a number, you can't control it that way.

Now, in theory a little brat and his mother could be pushing the scorer for every point they can get (knowing the necessary number) as happened to me over the weekend, but that's another story. It took several minutes to show them their kid shot fewer points than they wanted to hear and had calculated. That's the real issue but that's down to scoring integrity and I've found that at bigger events while people are reasonable points are not being handed out. You're not going to get the number unless you earn it.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Azzurri said:


> I can't see anyone really dropping out for fear of being beat, I could see people being concerned about the later shooters having the advantage of knowing the numbers they need, but you still have to shoot it like anyone else, and I don't think most archers try and coast past a number, you can't control it that way.
> 
> Now, in theory a little brat and his mother could be pushing the scorer for every point they can get (knowing the necessary number) as happened to me over the weekend, but that's another story. It took several minutes to show them their kid shot fewer points than they wanted to hear and had calculated. That's the real issue but that's down to scoring integrity and I've found that at bigger events while people are reasonable points are not being handed out. You're not going to get the number unless you earn it.


Agree, it's hard for me to conceptualize how p*ssified one would have to be to duck shooting because someone else shot well, but others talk about this phenomenon as something that really exists, so I defer to their observation and accept the existence of it (ugh).

And agree, I've never shot on a bale in a big tournament where the calling/scoring was anything but 'balls out straightforward/strict'. I have been on bales at local indoor tourneys where I could sense some desire for others to take a forgiving stance about 'did it catch the line or not?', and I then stepped in and set the tone that we were calling it strict today. Archery is about 'absolute reality' - that's one of the things I love about it the most - the clarity. Kids should be made clear on that point (and adults that need that lessons too) immediately and often.


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## TimZim (Feb 22, 2005)

ArcheryEvents.com can also handle this. AE has a series maker that the Host(USA Archery) can set up and each regional location can set up there tournament with templates. All scores and financials would be sent to USA Archery the day of the events. The Master shoot list is all done for the Host (Organizer). No work on their part but to publish the scores. Very easy. It is all free, unless they are doing on line registration. All scores at the end of the tournament can be publish in seconds with a flip of a toggle switch. The new SeriesMaker also has a built in feature that will authorize all USA Archery memberships too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess this is the season for "why aren't indoor nationals scores up yet?" threads. LOL. 

every year.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

That's what we need judges for sadly. We should be honest to a fault I believe.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

I did a search and found this same discussion in 2006.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Cephas said:


> I did a search and found this same discussion in 2006.


And probably 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010... LOL


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hmmmm, you would think with that much feedback some improvements could have been made? This tournament takes so long it even overlaps with NFAA Indoor Nationals. From Feb 20 to March 15. At least shrink the dates to just a couple of weeks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Hmmmm, you would think with that much feedback some improvements could have been made?


I wouldn't think that. Others might though.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I wouldn't think that. Others might though.


John, you're too young to be that cynical!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> John, you're too young to be that cynical!


Cynical sounds so negative. I think of it as experienced.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

lksseven said:


> And agree, I've never shot on a bale in a big tournament where the calling/scoring was anything but 'balls out straightforward/strict'. I have been on bales at local indoor tourneys where I could sense some desire for others to take a forgiving stance about 'did it catch the line or not?', and I then stepped in and set the tone that we were calling it strict today. Archery is about 'absolute reality' - that's one of the things I love about it the most - the clarity. Kids should be made clear on that point (and adults that need that lessons too) immediately and often.


The saving grace was the need to have the scores match. After several minutes we figured out the shooter's parent had counted a few dropped points as one more than accurate and there was the discrepancy. But before that it was rough, first they wanted to add their own cards like in some youth series, and I'm like, I may not be great but I have done this before, and had to get another adult to second me on that. Then since he also kept score there's the discrepancy, and it's like they're assuming I am wrong, and I used to be a mathlete as a kid. At that point I'm getting stubborn too because it's like, I make maybe one math error a season and I've already burned that this year. And then we went round by round and there it finally was. But until then it was misery and at least part of it, I am convinced, is a helicopter parent who thinks their kid is great and assumes you're some jerk out to get them. 

So, sometimes process is salvation.

In fairness, one of my buddies in senior recurve in state is the parent of a kid I once shot with, and so it can either go well or not sometimes.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

lksseven said:


> Agree "shoot the tournament". To 'not shoot' because one of your peers shot well in a previous weekend ... what a pathetic mindset.


Agree I can't imagine doing that. Demmer put up a monster score one or two weeks before I shot MSU that I have not even touched in practice. It was never even an option to not shoot. 

BTW I have it on good authority that MSU scores will be posted by the end of the week.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

SBills said:


> Agree I can't imagine doing that. Demmer put up a monster score one or two weeks before I shot MSU that I have not even touched in practice. It was never even an option to not shoot.
> 
> BTW I have it on good authority that MSU scores will be posted by the end of the week.


After Demmer's score, it should have made it easier for everyone else since the pressure of winning was off. LOL!


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I know why it takes so long.............................. someone is calculating the handicap for each venue 

CP


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Casualfoto said:


> I know why it takes so long.............................. someone is calculating the handicap for each venue
> 
> CP


Handicap in what? The only thing to really count on is lighting.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Yes you are correct. Everyone shoots with some sort of lighting.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I don't know if the contract with USA Archery to run a regional has a requirement to report at least unofficial reports within a certain period - but they should. 

I believe a local guy provided USA Archery with a program to merge all regions' scores (a couple of years ago) rather than having to enter them manually, though the scores I've seen on line seem to have been done with different software programs or formats. In any case, there's no reason for the results to take this long. Let the chips fall where they may, fer cryin out loud.

Would it even be helpful to know what socre you needed to shoot? If it's 10 points above your personal record, what would you do about it? Just shoot the best shot you can on each arrow and live with the results. If you do that, you can leave with a smile on you face, which is a good trophy in itself.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Lighting, room temperature, what kind of candy bars for sale at each venue - that's pretty thin differentiating criteria to carp about ... but if it's true that Michigan, by having two weekends offered because the first weekend was full up, allowed some shooters to shoot Nationals one weekend and then JOAD the other weekend (or vice versa), that's a different story. That would be a definite advantage for those shooters over the rest of the country that had to shoot it all in one weekend.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Lighting, room temperature, what kind of candy bars for sale at each venue - that's pretty thin differentiating criteria to carp about ... but if it's true that Michigan, by having two weekends offered because the first weekend was full up, allowed some shooters to shoot Nationals one weekend and then JOAD the other weekend (or vice versa), that's a different story. That would be a definite advantage for those shooters over the rest of the country that had to shoot it all in one weekend.


That exact scenario can be forced because you aren't allowed to turn anyone away. It's actually in the contract. And I do agree with you that having the ability to split weekends is an unfair advantage.

-Steve


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

My question would be this, fellas, how would Michigan shoot all in one weekend then? If we have so much participation, do we run 4 or 5 line times each day? So JOAD is strictly done one day (Friday) and then Nationals the following two days? Or that the kids shoot JOAD in the AM (Saturday) and then nationals day 1 the same day and then Sunday is day 2? 

For the other venues that manage to go in one weekend, (and not pushing people away) is it that these venues are larger? Or that they do not have the participation we have?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

rharper said:


> My question would be this, fellas, how would Michigan shoot all in one weekend then? If we have so much participation, do we run 4 or 5 line times each day? So JOAD is strictly done one day (Friday) and then Nationals the following two days? Or that the kids shoot JOAD in the AM (Saturday) and then nationals day 1 the same day and then Sunday is day 2?
> 
> For the other venues that manage to go in one weekend, (and not pushing people away) is it that these venues are larger? Or that they do not have the participation we have?


Before New Mexico went from their old location in Rio Rancho to the current one in downtown Albuquerque, they ran a PM JOAD line on Friday, a Saturday AM JOAD line concurrent with the AM Indoor Nationals line, a PM Indoor Nationals Line, then on Sunday, an AM and PM line. That was with 14 bales/28 lanes.

The current New Mexico location had 32 bales/64 lanes. They ran one large Friday PM JOAD line, then on Saturday/Sunday an AM and PM Indoor Nationals line.

Arizona's proposal for Indoor Nationals has 100 bales/200 lanes. We would have run one large Friday PM JOAD line, then depending on attendance, either an AB single line on Saturday AM or AB/CD line on Saturday AM, do a single AB Saturday PM line, then an AB or AB/CD Sunday AM line and call it a day.

Tulare last year had a huge barn. This year, they used two barns at the Tulare County Fairgrounds. Luckily, Tulare's venue had the space to be able to overflow into a second building.

Is archery growing? Yes. Is it outgrowing venues? Definitely.

-Steve


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Well that certainly puts some perspective on the MSU venue. I think Demmer Center has 15 or so bales? Er, 11 if the website is correct. It's been a few years since I've been there.


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Yeah, I know, big picture, big tent, let the current methodology stand, but geez, what other sports conduct national championships by comparing scores mailed in. Compete and in a month or so we'll let you know what happened in a gigantic yawn. It just sticks in my craw.


NCAA Men's Division 1 Basketball National Championship Tournament (aka "March Madness"). 
_68 teams are divided into four regions and organized into a single elimination "bracket", ... After an initial four games between eight lower-ranked teams, the tournament occurs during the course of three weekends, at pre-selected neutral sites across the United States_​


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## therick (Jun 16, 2008)

Mass venue added 9 pm lines Friday and Saturday nights to accommodate larger than expected turn out. We finished shooting around midnight.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

rharper said:


> My question would be this, fellas, how would Michigan shoot all in one weekend then? If we have so much participation, do we run 4 or 5 line times each day? So JOAD is strictly done one day (Friday) and then Nationals the following two days? Or that the kids shoot JOAD in the AM (Saturday) and then nationals day 1 the same day and then Sunday is day 2?
> 
> For the other venues that manage to go in one weekend, (and not pushing people away) is it that these venues are larger? Or that they do not have the participation we have?


The problem isn't having, in effect, two tournaments (one each weekend). The problem is not insisting that an individual archer only be allowed to shoot one weekend. If you want to shoot both Nationals AND JOAD, then you have to do it the same weekend; not allowed to shoot Nats and then show up the next weekend fresh as a daisy to shoot JOAD.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

_JR_ said:


> NCAA Men's Division 1 Basketball National Championship Tournament (aka "March Madness").
> _68 teams are divided into four regions and organized into a single elimination "bracket", ... After an initial four games between eight lower-ranked teams, the tournament occurs during the course of three weekends, at pre-selected neutral sites across the United States_​


That is a poor comparison. This is not a single elimination tournament. Nobody is ranked. You may never face your competition in the USAA event. Apples and oranges in my mind.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

lksseven said:


> The problem isn't having, in effect, two tournaments (one each weekend). The problem is not insisting that an individual archer only be allowed to shoot one weekend. If you want to shoot both Nationals AND JOAD, then you have to do it the same weekend; not allowed to shoot Nats and then show up the next weekend fresh as a daisy to shoot JOAD.


There are other issues as well. One year I had to shoot both scores in one day. Or as others have mentioned, you shoot late into the night, or perhaps early morning. There are issues which need to be addressed. I'm sure there are others.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I still don't understand why there is a separate JOAD indoor nationals, and then a regular indoor nationals with JOAD divisions. I mean, WTH? 

We don't do this for outdoor anymore (thank God).

And we put our youngest archers in a position to shoot 180 arrows in 24 hours. Really?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I still don't understand why there is a separate JOAD indoor nationals, and then a regular indoor nationals with JOAD divisions. I mean, WTH?
> 
> We don't do this for outdoor anymore (thank God).
> 
> And we put our youngest archers in a position to shoot 180 arrows in 24 hours. Really?


Money John, money. The same reason this event will never be in one place.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Lighting, room temperature, what kind of candy bars for sale at each venue - that's pretty thin differentiating criteria to carp about ... but if it's true that Michigan, by having two weekends offered because the first weekend was full up, allowed some shooters to shoot Nationals one weekend and then JOAD the other weekend (or vice versa), that's a different story. That would be a definite advantage for those shooters over the rest of the country that had to shoot it all in one weekend.


I know I'm splitting hairs but it's actually much more than just lighting. But lets start with lighting. A few years ago one venue had small windows riming the room just below the ceiling. At a particular time of day some shooter in a section of the room had to fight sun glare for the time it took to shoot a few ends. One venue we attended was bright in the center of the shooting line and darker on the ends. Others here have posted about dark venues, while I'm quite certain that some of the venues are extremely well lit to the point of being almost too bright. Some of the venues are flooded with sunlight, some are not. Later in the day, went the sun goes down those same venues have a dramatically different appearance. Some have fluorescent lighting, some sodium vapor, and some metal halide; all resulting in a slightly different perception of the target face. 

Moving to the targets. some have target faces mounted to black bales, some have target faces mounted to gray bales and some have target faces mounted to white bales. Some bales are on a stand, some are permanently mounted into a shooting wall. Some of the shooting walls are flush and seamless from end to end. Some have vertical frame-like pieces clearly separating each bale. 

Then there are the temperature fluctuations, 80 degrees in one venue, 65 degrees (maybe lower) in another. 

There's the personal advantage/disadvantage to shooting line start times. Some by choice and some imposed by the organizers. The early riser who is forced to shoot the 9 pm line, or the late riser who is forced to shoot the 9am line. Yes I'll remind you that I know I'm splitting hairs but there are issues with individual advantages and disadvantages. 

And lets not forget the distraction of roof leaks. 

So why do I think it's important to waste my time with this totally inane little dissertation? For the kids in the northern part of the country looking for a USAT slot or just a high ranking, this tournament may well be the most important competition of the year.

CP


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> I still don't understand why there is a separate JOAD indoor nationals, and then a regular indoor nationals with JOAD divisions. I mean, WTH?
> 
> We don't do this for outdoor anymore (thank God).
> 
> And we put our youngest archers in a position to shoot 180 arrows in 24 hours. Really?


The good coaches I know, make an effort to help the younger kids chose one or the other.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

One major observation, the growth of entries was not forecast and prepared for by USA archery. The regionals in College Starion were full and some were turned away. More growth is coming.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

One of the region disparities that I never understood was practice. Many have two ends, some 30 minutes, some have a practice room. But to be honest, I don't think I have ever seen any of the better shooters use that as an excuse.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> For the kids in the northern part of the country looking for a USAT slot or just a high ranking, this tournament may well be the most important competition of the year.


Very true. For Jr. USAT hopefuls on a limited budget, this is spot-on.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Handicap in what? The only thing to really count on is lighting.


not true. a few years ago, Norm Graham was expecting to be able to use the turf arena and the new Demmer center. MSU limited him to the Demmer center. On top of that, a fatal wreck on the main road coming into MSU halted traffic. at 6 o'clock he let walk ons shoot only to have at least a couple dozen other shooters who had been delayed also shoot. My son was 12 and his scores that year in other tournaments were above what won the bowman division in recurve that year. But he had to deal with extremely crowded conditions and the unheard of proposition of THREE LINES in the JOAD shoot at 6. Meaning A AND B would shoot-score-then C would shoot, the B &C would shoot, score then A. He and the other bowman ended up spending SIX HOURS on the line to shoot 60 arrows and almost every kid in that division started crashing at the time they would have been finished in any other venue. So in that case, those kids forced to shoot past midnight in a shoot that normally ends at 9.30 were clearly handicapped by the venue


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> After Demmer's score, it should have made it easier for everyone else since the pressure of winning was off. LOL!


What an absolutely arrogant and idiotic thing to say. Sheesh. The LOL just adds to this pitiful thinking. Maybe all the other barebowers should just find another style of shooting as we don't stand a chance of ever winning. Your love affair apparently knows no bounds, John. On second thought, I think I'll just show up to some of the barebow tournaments to pick up the leftovers.


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

itbeso said:


> What an absolutely arrogant and idiotic thing to say. Sheesh. The LOL just adds to this pitiful thinking.


Um...: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/humor


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

itbeso said:


> What an absolutely arrogant and idiotic thing to say. Sheesh. The LOL just adds to this pitiful thinking. Maybe all the other barebowers should just find another style of shooting as we don't stand a chance of ever winning. Your love affair apparently knows no bounds, John. On second thought, I think I'll just show up to some of the barebow tournaments to pick up the leftovers.


Hey man, you need to head down to Walmart and buy yourself a sense of humor. John made a joke and complimented Demmer's shooting. Settle down. It's so funny that you are always claiming Olympic Recurvers are so uptight, humorless and staid but lately you have been the most humorless, over-emotional, irrational and uptight member of this forum. You need to make an effort to occasionally be right about something. Your behavior in the thread you started when Brady Ellison won the 2014 World Cup showed all of us what kind of person you are... a person who just can't handle intelligent discussion and doesn't care about being polite, reasonable and right. A man takes responsibility for his words and actions. You do not. So grow up and become a man.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Maybe all the other barebowers should just find another style of shooting as we don't stand a chance of ever winning.


Against a 573 and a 566.5 average over two days for a combined 1133? Nope. No chance. Sorry but facts are facts. There are some of us who choose to live in reality. I was only half-joking. 

Every barebow archer in the U.S. should be in awe of those scores. We have never seen their equal and might never again. 

I told a few Oly. recurve archers the other day about his 573, and they literally could not believe it. They did not believe me. Then I told them about his 299 NFAA sectional score this past weekend, and again, they told me I was making that up. And these are good friends of mine.

A true fan of the sport and fellow competitor has to occasionally just sit back and go "damn, that's awesome" every now and then. 

I never feel personally offended when someone is amazed by another archer's shooting. Not sure why it should bother you. It's only archery after all.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

_JR_ said:


> Um...: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/humor


JR, I'm the original humor guy. I know and use humor everyday and this was not humor. It was a blatant attempt( ongoing) to put others down. It is about time John was called on it and I will be happy to do so. I am not the only person to have taken umbrance with Limbwalkers attitude towards us lesser human types.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

itbeso said:


> JR, I'm the original humor guy. I know and use humor everyday and this was not humor. It was a blatant attempt( ongoing) to put others down. It is about time John was called on it and I will be happy to do so. I am not the only person to have taken umbrance with Limbwalkers attitude towards us lesser human types.


Please take the animus off line.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Our shoot is this weekend and the final shoot of the Indoor series. At JMU in Virginia.

They also had to add an additional flight time, 8pm Friday and Saturday to accommodate the additional shooters.

I'm taking about 25 of my JOAD Club to this shoot and most are only shooting the JOAD tournament, some of my better shooters are shooting in both.

Wish us luck and good luck to all the other shooters as well. 

Hopefully the scores will be posted very quickly so everyone can know how they ended up.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

TER said:


> Hey man, you need to head down to Walmart and buy yourself a sense of humor. John made a joke and complimented Demmer's shooting. Settle down. It's so funny that you are always claiming Olympic Recurvers are so uptight, humorless and staid but lately you have been the most humorless, over-emotional, irrational and uptight member of this forum. You need to make an effort to occasionally be right about something. Your behavior in the thread you started when Brady Ellison won the 2014 World Cup showed all of us what kind of person you are... a person who just can't handle intelligent discussion and doesn't care about being polite, reasonable and right. A man takes responsibility for his words and actions. You do not. So grow up and become a man.


TER, for someone who has never met me or interacted with me, you sure know a lot about me. You seem to be the uptight one and judging from your post, you must be an Oly style recurver. I am one of the few who does take responsibility for my words and actions and I refuse to sugarcoat my observations just to soothe fragile psyches like yours. You do not have any history in this ongoing saga so wait until you have some facts before going on a rant. My behavior in a thread about Brady???? I'm sorry, does it take intelligence to post on these threads? Go attack someone else.


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## Eberhart (Sep 17, 2012)

Good luck X Force


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It was a blatant attempt( ongoing) to put others down.


No, Ben, it wasn't. I was simply pointing out the obvious, and everyone - including you - knows it. 

And your ego is showing again. 



> Please take the animus off line.


I agree. Ben you can PM me from now on if you have an opinion on anything I post here. Because I think folks are flat tired of you being so thin-skinned and taking everything so personally. It just wears us all out and sucks the fun completely out of what should be a fun sport.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> No, Ben, it wasn't. I was simply pointing out the obvious, and everyone - including you - knows it.
> 
> And your ego is showing again.
> 
> ...


Amen. Now where are those scores????


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Against a 573 and a 566.5 average over two days for a combined 1133? Nope. No chance. Sorry but facts are facts. There are some of us who choose to live in reality. I was only half-joking.
> 
> Every barebow archer in the U.S. should be in awe of those scores. We have never seen their equal and might never again.
> 
> ...


John, I am not a newcomer to barebow shooting. I started archery in 1969 shooting barebow and have been its biggest fan ever since. I have been fortunate to have been able to see just about every great barebow-bowhunter-recurve barebow performance in this country over the years. The fact is, that I have been, over the years, barebow shootings' biggest cheerleader, and that is still the case. No great performance by a competitor bothers me, John, because it is good for our style of shooting. It is also good in the sense that it makes the true competitor want to up his or her game to reach the same levels or higher. The performances by Mark Lynde, Dwayne Martin, And John Demmer this year should inspire all of us, I know they do me. The difference between your attitude and mine is that I never go to a competition expecting to be beat, no matter the resume of the other archers and I think that is the attitude of most of the top barebow archers I have ever known. We have our up days and down days, but that is what keeps us coming back. You are relatively new to barebow archery so you haven't been there over the years to see some of the scores that were shot without sights, compound and recurve. If you had been, you wouldn't be so easily impressed with some of the score that are now being shot, keeping in mind that the Nfaa indoor wasn't around in the early days of the barebow phenomenon and later on, the NAA indoor was just a shoot that to my knowledge, the great barebow archers of the 60s and 70s never attended. If the truth be known, I think that Demmer and Martin, among others would tell you that 573 is far from being the highest possible score that a recurve barebower will achieve. Actually, I almost forgot the scores shot overseas, so my last statement is a moot point. Lastly, you often reference the statement, " It's only archery after all". I have never made my living, nor attempted to,from archery. I have been fortunate enough to win some 6-7 thousand dollar checks from various tournaments but for the most part, it has been a passion, along with my 4 children, grandchildren, hunting, fishing, golf, and remodeling. All the coaching I have done has been for free because it pleases me to share my knowledge of the sport without making it a job. Trying to downplay The importance of the sport in the lives of people like Ellison, Broadwater, Morgan, Hyek, Gillingham, Demmer, Martin, et al is a slap in their face. That is not the way to, somehow, try to make yourself seem above all that.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You are relatively new to barebow archery


You know Ben, if you keep saying that enough times, you might even convince yourself it's true. 

And there's a PM feature on this site if you want to address me personally.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Nice I was bored with my usual soaps.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ten_Zen said:


> Nice I was bored with my usual soaps.


LOL. Leave it to Ben... God bless 'em.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> LOL. Leave it to Ben... God bless 'em.


Now we're bringing religion into the discussion?:eek2:


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John's comment was an oblique, light hearted accolade for Demmer's awesome performance (I've used the same technique many times ("Well, looks like we're shooting for silver!") after someone lights up the scoreboard). And that quip/technique never gets in the way with my internal competitor's belief on the line that "I can shoot a 10 on every arrow". 

Ben's rancorous response, and his aside comment to TER "...judging from your post, you must be an Oly style recurver." reveals much in the accuser, me thinks. 

But, back to the thread, why oh why can't USA Archery insist on a 48 or 72hour deadline for each region to post their scores? I actually kind of like the slow motion drama of seeing new scores come up methodically, but I don't want to sit in a quiet ball park unable to see the game and nothing's on the scoreboard until the game is over. Show me the box scores/scoreboard each inning as the game goes along.


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## D_Winslow (Mar 20, 2014)

lksseven said:


> But, back to the thread, why oh why can't USA Archery insist on a 48 or 72hour deadline for each region to post their scores?


My guess is because of the hand written scoring, adding, double and triple checking process.

In my opinion this tournament would be greatly improved by an online registration and payment process and at least scoring with a Scantron or Apperson type scanner and bubble scorecards. It seems the time required for the scoring process during a USAA tournament far exceeds the actual shooting time, which is then followed by people setting around double checking scores for twenty minutes after the line is finished, which is then followed by what I assume is more hand checking scores by the tournament organizers. Then it is up to them to get with their web person to post when(or if) they get a chance(providing they remember the password to get into their club website).

I think last year it took over a month for final scores and another few weeks for official results press release, then another few weeks for awards. A bit of an anti-climatic process for a National tournament.

Using a bubble scorecard could shave at least 30-45min off a line time, is 100% accurate(to what is bubbled in), and would allow results(.csv file) to be uploaded to a central USAA location (where registration took place) within 15 minutes after completion of a line.

By the time you put all your gear away and finish chatting with you lane mates you "would" be able to look on your phone and see your standings.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Just like how knowing Demmer's score affects your perception of whether or not you will win, knowing the scores of the already completed venues influences the morale of the archers who have not yet competed. If I saw 20 or so 1100's posted before I went to compete, my morale would have been impacted because I have never shot 1100 before and so I would be anticipating a score that puts me below the top 20. However, I would love to say that I am impervious to such blows to my morale, but more often than not, it is just the opposite. Every little thing ends up becoming an excuse for my failure. Something I (and hopefully most archers) are constantly working on improving.


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## D_Winslow (Mar 20, 2014)

Ten_Zen said:


> Just like how knowing Demmer's score affects your perception of whether or not you will win, knowing the scores of the already completed venues influences the morale of the archers who have not yet competed. If I saw 20 or so 1100's posted before I went to compete, my morale would have been impacted because I have never shot 1100 before and so I would be anticipating a score that puts me below the top 20. However, I would love to say that I am impervious to such blows to my morale, but more often than not, it is just the opposite. Every little thing ends up becoming an excuse for my failure. Something I (and hopefully most archers) are constantly working on improving.


Agreed. The tournaments we go to where results are posted at the completion of each line, I tell my archers to not look at the posted scores. The posted scores are for after you have shot. And to me, the scores and ranking only have significance for reflection near the day of or near the time they are shot. They seem somewhat meaningless a month down the road, since most archers are shooting a whole different game a month or weeks later.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

All you have to do is look at last years scores and know that your sub 1100 score puts you mid pack at best. I'm not sure why that would demoralize you. If you put your best foot forward and meet or exceed what you normally do in a competition, you've won.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> All you have to do is look at last years scores and know that your sub 1100 score puts you mid pack at best. I'm not sure why that would demoralize you. If you put your best foot forward and meet or exceed what you normally do in a competition, you've won.


Very well said.

But at least you're being honest Ten. That's a great first step in becoming impervious to others' scores.


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Once the scorecards are signed there's no double checking and no going back. I tell my archers make sure it's absolutely correct before you sign it.
And if you don't want to know what the competition has done don't look at the posted scores or threads regarding scores. Human nature says you gotta look though.

So let's just get those scores posted cuz we just gotta look!


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> All you have to do is look at last years scores and know that your sub 1100 score puts you mid pack at best. I'm not sure why that would demoralize you. If you put your best foot forward and meet or exceed what you normally do in a competition, you've won.


Actually by checking last years scores I anticipated to be in the top 20, and if last years scores are an indicator of this years, then I did. But I got second place with a 1030 in Cali state championship this year. That same score would have landed me in 7th place the year before that. So I don't think that last years scores are nearly as demoralizing as seeing this years scores before you shoot, especially because in Collegiate division people graduate out every year, so the top scores usually fall off after a while. Looking at last years scores is a good indicator of where you might be and I would say has almost no affect on morale. Looking at this years scores is more like looking at nails being pounded in your coffin. Especially if you see everyone placing higher than you expected, it can be disheartening.

That being said, I agree it is important to become impervious to these influences, but that is easier said than done. I cant seem to help picking out the best archers on my line and mentally comparing myself to them as time goes on. The greater the difference in our scores, the more it affects me. That can be a double edged sword. If they are beating me by a lot, I get down on myself. If I am beating them, I 'big up' myself. Either way is not good, their scores shouldnt matter to me. But they do.


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## yurmes (Apr 2, 2013)

what is the size of target for barebow shooters? 40cm or bigger?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

yurmes said:


> what is the size of target for barebow shooters? 40cm or bigger?



40 cm for indoor nationals. 


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Ten_Zen said:


> Just like how knowing Demmer's score affects your perception of whether or not you will win, knowing the scores of the already completed venues influences the morale of the archers who have not yet competed. If I saw 20 or so 1100's posted before I went to compete, my morale would have been impacted because I have never shot 1100 before and so I would be anticipating a score that puts me below the top 20. However, I would love to say that I am impervious to such blows to my morale, but more often than not, it is just the opposite. Every little thing ends up becoming an excuse for my failure. Something I (and hopefully most archers) are constantly working on improving.


No, that's an inaccurate generalization. Knowing the scores may impact _*your*_ morale, but that doesn't speak for everybody. Watching and cheering for people who are currently better than you are is a big part of the fun of this sport. We're all just performing our skill next to each other. 

I saw before I shot in College Station that Gary Yamaguchi had ripped an 1120. Well, I've never shot better than 1082 in competition, but was happy to see where I currently was versus the best of the Masters 50+ guys. Then, when I did shoot, I watched my good friend Tom Stevenson (who I'd outpointed by 3 points the weekend before at state, when he and his wife stayed with us over the weekend) give me a 27point beatdown en route to an 1124 in College Station, and it was one of the most enjoyable tournament experiences I've ever had. I was inspired by his great shooting and high score - I shot my PB Friday night and he bested it by 13 points. We had dinner together that night after and laughed like fools. Then the second round I bested my PB from the night before and still lost 14 more points to him! And we laughed about that, too - I told him I was taking partial credit for his score, claiming it was my wind that helped fill his sails to that score, and possibly would forbid him to stay with us ever again (that's a frivolous quip, for those of you out there who are quip-challenged). And I walked away with PB's in both rounds and overall - why would I deny myself those tests and rewards by freaking out over Gary's score?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry's attitude above is of course the right way to approach these events. 

When one can be happy for those who are scoring better than them, instead of focusing on the negative and being down on oneself, they will not only enjoy the sport more, but will also perform better over time.



> That being said, I agree it is important to become impervious to these influences, but that is easier said than done. I cant seem to help picking out the best archers on my line and mentally comparing myself to them as time goes on. The greater the difference in our scores, the more it affects me.


It is easier said than done, but it can be done. Since I began competing, I have not ever been a score watcher. If I see it, fine, but I never make a point to go look. It is what it is, and the only thing you can do about it is to step up to the line and shoot the best you can. Absolutely nothing you know about scores should ever change that. There is no "strategy" in archery. The goal for every arrow is the same. That alone should relieve the pressure. I know it does for me. 

I know some thrive on the pressure and pit themselves mentally against every other archer on the line. They will even tell you, if asked, that it works for them. I would maintain that if they ever got over themselves and stopped seeing the other archers as adversaries, but rather allies helping push them to achieve excellence, they would score even better. They'd probably have more fun too.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

I am competitive. I want to be the best at what I do. Even when I dont win, I still learn a lot and that makes it worth it. But that does not mean I enjoy losing. I agree it is important to have fun at competitions, but I do not agree that is the main objective. The main objective is to win the competition. Even if you know you dont stand a chance, if your goal is not to win, then why bother competing in the first place? If there are only 2 people in a competition and one of them doesnt care if they win, it kinda makes it not a competition anymore. Adding more people doesnt change the equation. I am friendly with my fellow archers, but when I am on the line my goal is to beat them, not be their friend. I am working on turning that inwards and "becoming my own opponent" as they say, but that conflicts with every natural fiber in my being to be the "biggest fish in the pond" as they also say. So anyway, thats a thing


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I want my kids to be competitive but when we go to Nationals they understand they cannot all win. Some compete against each other in the same class.
My hope for them us that they do their best and come away from the tournament with no regrets that they didn't try their best.
Deep down I think their goals are to win but, its not the end of the world if they don't.
Some of my group thrive on competition under pressure and others fall apart. The entire experience does just that, builds experience.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Ten_Zen said:


> I am competitive. me, tooI want to be the best at what I do. me, too. Even when I dont win, I still learn a lot me, too and that makes it worth it. But that does not mean I enjoy losing. me, either I agree it is important to have fun at competitions, but I do not agree that is the main objective. Who said it was? The main objective is to win the competition. "One" of the objectives is to win. Of course, with gray hair comes - hopefully - increased perspective. It was probably more difficult to use night vision when I was younger (that's a metaphor referring to oblique awareness and peripheral focus). Even if you know you dont stand a chance, if your goal is not to win, then why bother competing in the first place?Remember the Alamo! There are lots of worthwhile reasons to compete; of course wanting to win is a motivator. But I can't control who wins - I can only control me; how I perform under tournament conditions; how do I manage my adrenaline, nerves, concentration, and maintain my relaxed but engaged form? That's what I want to see. When I have past the point (due to the advances of age) of being able to increase my form and scores, I want to know with certainty that I absolutely butted up against my personal ceiling of capability, given my God given abilities (whatever those might be) and starting point (age 53) - that I gave everything I could (without being derelict to other responsibilities) to reaching my ceiling. Then, no matter what that ceiling turns out to be, I'll be satisfied. If that ceiling turns out to be high score at this tournament or that tournament, that is icing on the cake . If there are only 2 people in a competition and one of them doesnt care if they win, it kinda makes it not a competition anymore. Adding more people doesnt change the equation. I'm pretty sure each competitor wants to win. How each competitor reacts to winning or not winning is also a test worth having/passing . I am friendly with my fellow archers, but when I am on the line my goal is to beat them, not be their friend. When I am on the line, my goal is to execute perfect form and have perfect aim. That's all I can control, so that's my focus. What the guy next to me is doing is irrelevant to my primary task. I want my competitors to either push me upward to my best performance (I win), or pull me upward to my best performance (they win but I still performed up to my current limit) ... in that order. My competitors are my partners, not my enemies. I love my competitors - without them, where would be the joy, the honor, the glory of competition? I am working on turning that inwards and "becoming my own opponent" as they say, but that conflicts with every natural fiber in my being to be the "biggest fish in the pond" as they also say. So anyway, thats a thing


Watch this video starting at timemark 24:23 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wstdQCe364 ). This ending soliloquy by the narrator always gives me chills - he captures the romance and beauty of our sport ... we are - all of us competing archers - daring valiantly in our quest to be the best (we can be). There should be great joy in that.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I agree it is important to have fun at competitions, but I do not agree that is the main objective. The main objective is to win the competition. Even if you know you dont stand a chance, if your goal is not to win, then why bother competing in the first place?


I see this mindset a lot in younger folks. I think over time you will appreciate all the other reasons there are to compete. Winning is only a by-product of other goals. 

Top athletes do want to win, yes, but they will always have other goals they focus on and the winning will take care of itself. An athlete that is only focused on winning as a goal will not stay in this sport long. I've seen them come and go many times.

The "goal of winning" often reminds me of the story Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus would tell about being so caught up in beating one another, that some other golfer would pass them by and win the event. I've seen this in archery as well.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Lol you sound like an old man john! I think we are closer in age than you might think. I am 32


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I was 32 about 13 years ago. 

And in some cases, with age does actually come wisdom. Not always though. 

I mean, you can't fix stupid. ha, ha.


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## WDWILHELM (Jul 2, 2009)

"I want my competitors to either push me upward to my best performance (I win), or pull me upward to my best performance (they win but I still performed up to my current limit) ... in that order. My competitors are my partners, not my enemies. I love my competitors - without them, where would be the joy, the honor, the glory of competition?"

Larry,
I look forward to the day our archery journeys cross. I suspect I'll enjoy sharing the field of competition with you, and maybe even a beverage afterward.

Wyndell


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...iminary-Results-Released-for-Indoor-Nationals


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## D_Winslow (Mar 20, 2014)

Unfortunately USAA only posted preliminary from MA, GA, NM & TX. Which we've know for awhile. I think Tulare, MSU, Mankato and VA(this weekend) are the only sites not posted (at least I have not been able to find).


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## bone74 (Aug 15, 2010)

No Male or female JOAD bowman compound scores!


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## jharrowmom (Aug 20, 2005)

Yes, typo for Eleanor. No, she didn't score 1400+ points! I put her total score as the 2nd round.
Just emailed USAA to fix it.

Sorry about that!

If somebody can post this to the USAA comment page I would appreciate it. I don't have a Facebook account and it
won't let me add a comment.

Joan


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

D_Winslow said:


> Unfortunately USAA only posted preliminary from MA, GA, NM & TX. Which we've know for awhile. I think Tulare, MSU, Mankato and VA(this weekend) are the only sites not posted (at least I have not been able to find).


Ohio is not listed although they should have had ours last week. Unless it was delayed due to weather or being thrown in the trash by the USPS...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

WDWILHELM said:


> "I want my competitors to either push me upward to my best performance (I win), or pull me upward to my best performance (they win but I still performed up to my current limit) ... in that order. My competitors are my partners, not my enemies. I love my competitors - without them, where would be the joy, the honor, the glory of competition?"
> 
> Larry,
> I look forward to the day our archery journeys cross. I suspect I'll enjoy sharing the field of competition with you, and maybe even a beverage afterward.
> ...


Hey Wyndell! Your brother Wes pushed me about as hard as I wanted to be pushed at Senior Olympics in Cleveland. I don't know if I can handle a tag team of brothers! But you're on for both the shooting and the brewski.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

WDWILHELM said:


> "I want my competitors to either push me upward to my best performance (I win), or pull me upward to my best performance (they win but I still performed up to my current limit) ... in that order. My competitors are my partners, not my enemies. I love my competitors - without them, where would be the joy, the honor, the glory of competition?"
> 
> Larry,
> I look forward to the day our archery journeys cross. I suspect I'll enjoy sharing the field of competition with you, and maybe even a beverage afterward.
> ...


I like that quote as well. That should be a banner at the entry of every completion on earth from the Olympics to old men playing checkers in the park.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

wfocharlie said:


> I like that quote as well. That should be a banner at the entry of every completion on earth from the Olympics to old men playing checkers in the park.


Watch the medals ceremony of 2012 Olympics, starting at timemark 2:19:11 . 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VulfblKiAzY
The Korean's gesture is such a wonderful display of sportsmanship - acknowledging the achievements of his competitors before accepting accolades for his own achievement. Isn't it great? I show this to all my students and tell them that I will only coach archers who can conduct themselves as that kind of competitor, that kind of gentleman or lady. 

Marshawn Lynch could take a lesson from this, eh? The archery range or field should be an oasis of civility and joy, an escape from the realities and abrasions of living on such a harsh planet so much of the time.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

So, does anyone know of an archive I can look at that shows previous scores from national competitions? All the ones i have looked at so far have outdated links that no longer work. Im looking for scores from 2010 and earlier...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Ten_Zen said:


> So, does anyone know of an archive I can look at that shows previous scores from national competitions? All the ones i have looked at so far have outdated links that no longer work. Im looking for scores from 2010 and earlier...


Here is a link with some measure of information ... http://www.texasarchery.org/L1/results.htm


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## WDWILHELM (Jul 2, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Hey Wyndell! Your brother Wes pushed me about as hard as I wanted to be pushed at Senior Olympics in Cleveland. I don't know if I can handle a tag team of brothers! But you're on for both the shooting and the brewski.


Team Wilhelm to Nationals in 2016. I turn 50 that year


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

lksseven said:


> Watch the medals ceremony of 2012 Olympics, starting at timemark 2:19:11 .
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VulfblKiAzY
> The Korean's gesture is such a wonderful display of sportsmanship - acknowledging the achievements of his competitors before accepting accolades for his own achievement. Isn't it great? I show this to all my students and tell them that I will only coach archers who can conduct themselves as that kind of competitor, that kind of gentleman or lady.
> 
> Marshawn Lynch could take a lesson from this, eh? The archery range or field should be an oasis of civility and joy, an escape from the realities and abrasions of living on such a harsh planet so much of the time.


But unfortunately our sport culture (and society as a whole) doesn't necessarily agree. 

For example, here we are in an archery blog, in the FITA section no less, and we refer to the current Men's Olympic Gold Medalist as 'the Korean, starting at 2:19:11', but we talk about an athlete from another sport by using his name, apparently with the assumption that everyone has heard about him (I had to Google him, but then I remembered that he's YouTube famous from his "I'm here so I won't get fined" interviews).


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_JR_ said:


> But unfortunately our sport culture (and society as a whole) doesn't necessarily agree.
> 
> For example, here we are in an archery blog, in the FITA section no less, and we refer to the current Men's Olympic Gold Medalist as 'the Korean, starting at 2:19:11', but we talk about an athlete from another sport by using his name, apparently with the assumption that everyone has heard about him (I had to Google him, but then I remembered that he's YouTube famous from his "I'm here so I won't get fined" interviews).


That's a shrewd observation. I agree - it's lamentable that in the current age tantrums attract more attention and acclaim than good manners. Makes me sad.


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## therick (Jun 16, 2008)

Michigan scores are up..


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

waiting .... and waiting .... and ....


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Competition at the final venue is over and their scores are posted.......................SO WHERE IS TULARE ?? They have had close to a month to get their scores up, and nothing, while some sites had there scores posted within 24 hours. 

If this were a kids game I'd have a lot of questions....


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I can't think of a reasonable explanation (that doesn't cast a negative light) for the delay of this length of posting scores. Here's the link to the comment page to try and contact the tournament directors to ask them for a posting time frame ...
http://calarchery.net/about-sac/tournament-directors


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Keeping MY mouth shut.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Casualfoto said:


> Competition at the final venue is over and their scores are posted.......................SO WHERE IS TULARE ?? They have had close to a month to get their scores up, and nothing, while some sites had there scores posted within 24 hours.
> 
> If this were a kids game I'd have a lot of questions....


Tulare has NEVER posted scores on the internet. They do post a paper version of the JOAD scores in the entrance from their Friday session on Saturday/Sunday, and the only times that has been posted was when people at the venue posts it on Facebook.

I know I posted the 2014 JOAD Tulare Regional score on my Facebook page when an Arizona contingent went to Tulare in 2014.

I do want to mention that host clubs are NOT required to post up regional scores. It's not in their contract. They ARE required to send the final scores to USA Archery within a certain period of time, using a pre-set format template that they are required to use.

-Steve


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

"within a certain period of time"
Which is?


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

"Tulare has NEVER posted scores on the internet."

Should we send them a new chisel and stone tablet?


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## jharrowmom (Aug 20, 2005)

Yes but we are required to post a list of registered archers.

Joan


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I submitted a question about "where are the scores?" to Tulare, and the response was that that info could be found on USA Archery website. 
Which makes me wonder if the scores have been submitted to USA Archery, but for some reason that info hasn't been released by USA Archery. ???

to me 
These results are on the USArchery.org website
D

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 16, 2015, at 6:57 AM, SAC <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> This is an enquiry email via http://calarchery.net/ from:
> Larry 
>
> A lot of archers around the country are waiting on results from Tulare from last month. Do you have an expected posting date for scores from the Tulare regional?


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

I tried contacting Calarchery a while ago and was told they would notify the host club. Tulare archery club's website looks like it's been under construction for 3 years mow. This is the link to the registration info: https://webpoint.usarchery.org/files/Event_PDFs/2686_Event_Info.pdf


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

The latest feedback from Tulare. Apparently the lag is in the lap of USA Archery, not Tulare.

Yes. Charla submitted the scores via email and received a confirmation from sherry. I would have thought they would be up. You would need to contact them
Hope this helps
Denise


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Still no updates on the other venues for US Archery. Out tournament was 18 days ago with the results emailed a couple days later. There are promises in the comment section from US Archery that updates are forthcoming but still nothing. Things are very s-l-o-w...


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

Is it time for the pitch forks and torches?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, it happens every year. And every year there's talk about tar and feathers. And every year, nothing changes...


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm pretty close to Colorado Springs. I could go down and help. Just say the word I'm off this Friday.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

I think as the "shareholders" of the company "USA Archery" we should hold a vote of "no confidence" and remove the CEO due to piss poor performance. Maybe start a petition on Change.org calling for Parker's firing...:wink:

If the individual JOAD organizations are required to sign a contract with USA Archery to hold the tournament under strict guidelines then USA Archery should be held to providing results in a timely manner with a "drop dead date"...not dragging them out and working on them when they can find the time.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Huh? You actually think USArchery exists to serve the membership? 

Silly rabbit.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

hdracer said:


> I think as the "shareholders" of the company "USA Archery" we should hold a vote of "no confidence" and remove the CEO due to piss poor performance. Maybe start a petition on Change.org calling for Parker's firing...:wink:
> 
> If the individual JOAD organizations are required to sign a contract with USA Archery to hold the tournament under strict guidelines then USA Archery should be held to providing results in a timely manner with a "drop dead date"...not dragging them out and working on them when they can find the time.


Hm. And for pure discussion only - you want it to go back to the Brad Camp days style of USA Archery?

If one compares the Brad Camp days versus the Denise Parker days, Even you would prefer the Denise Parker days.


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

And the "Final Jeopardy" music plays on and on and......
Anyway I offered MY assistance.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> Hm. And for pure discussion only - you want it to go back to the Brad Camp days style of USA Archery?
> 
> If one compares the Brad Camp days versus the Denise Parker days, Even you would prefer the Denise Parker days.


Respectfully, you're constructing a false limit of only two choices. Are there no other possible alternatives beyond 'Brad Camp style' or the present non-communicative/non-timely leadership ?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

We will shoot the Arizona cup and possibly Gator cup before National Indoor score results are posted. Happens every year. We will be deep into outdoor season when they come out, and it will have been so long, that no one will care. Personally, it shows everything that is wrong with USAA. They can not handle even something this simple in a timely fashion. And do not let any of the members know what is the timeline, problem or holdup.

The members are just sitting in the dark. As usual.


I personally could have had the scores posted by Tuesday following JMU's shoot. This is not a difficult or time consuming thing to do. 

Chris


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Respectfully, you're constructing a false limit of only two choices. Are there no other possible alternatives beyond 'Brad Camp style' or the present non-communicative/non-timely leadership ?


Hehe. Brad's predecessors were worse. Brad negotiated 90 percent of the current United/Nike type deals that are coming to expire soon. 

I will say this much. Denise is employed at the pleasure of the Board Of Directors. The Board of Directors work for us - they are voted from the membership save for the "at large" member. 

Same with Coach Lee. He is employed at the pleasure of the Board. 

You want to make changes? Start at the top. There are three positions open this year for the Board of Directors. Judge, Grassroots, and At Large. Make the change there. 

You have 90 days before elections to make your classification change to vote for that category.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

And, to answer the question directly....

I cannot say that Denise has been running the organization into the ground, unlike her two predecessors. 

Can someone do better? Sure. How can they do better? Don't know. 

The problem we are seeing with indoor national scores are directly attributed to employees and the the mishmash of good vs bad host clubs.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I cannot say that Denise has been running the organization into the ground, unlike her two predecessors.


I will 2nd this, although I can't say Brad ran it "into the ground" since the NAA was still alive and kicking when Denise and Lee took over. 

We've seen some very positive changes with Denise at the helm, and I believe that in her heart she wants to do what's best for the organization. However, her idea of what's best, and what if any control she exercises over her staff, is subject to debate. But hey, healthy debate never killed any organization. It's usually when the discussion and debate stops that organizations are run into the ground.

Personally, I see this unacceptable delay as a failure of whichever staff was responsible for it. And if I were Denise, I would be holding them accountable.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

if the 10 regions had made their lists public and linked to this forum, we would have had a complete result list weeks ago. 



Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> Hehe. Brad's predecessors were worse. Brad negotiated 90 percent of the current United/Nike type deals that are coming to expire soon.
> 
> I will say this much. Denise is employed at the pleasure of the Board Of Directors. The Board of Directors work for us - they are voted from the membership save for the "at large" member.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, I was just commenting on a 'debate technique ("frame the parameters"). I didn't say, and don't think that Denise has 'run NAA into the ground'. Having said that, an explanation from USA Archery concerning the delayed results would be easy and impactful.


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Agreed, but there is one holdout thumbing their nose at everyone else. Ridiculous. Did anyone else bid in CA?


chrstphr said:


> if the 10 regions had made their lists public and linked to this forum, we would have had a complete result list weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

mholz said:


> Agreed, but there is one holdout thumbing their nose at everyone else. Ridiculous. Did anyone else bid in CA?


Tulare turned in their results weeks ago. 


last year the shoots were over 2nd weekend of March. It took USA archery until April 16th to announce the results list. 

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...-Congratulates-JOAD-National-Indoor-Champions

It looks like they will be just as late this year. 


Chris


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

mholz said:


> Agreed, but there is one holdout thumbing their nose at everyone else. Ridiculous. Did anyone else bid in CA?


I don't believe anyone else has the facility size able to handle something that large.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

In any successful athletic contest, the support group (refs, umps, governing bodies) should not be part of the conversation. When they become the conversation, something is wrong. In the NFL it was the 'Fail Mary' (GB v. SEA). Or perhaps the George Brett tarred bat, out call, in baseball. The contest is diminished because of something outside the athletic performances. It's unfortunate and entirely avoidable in the case of USAA. There has been ample evidence the current system is lacking. Chris is correct. This is not the case of one year being an outlier. This has been the way the tournament has been conducted for many years. 

So instead of congratulating athletes, looking at outstanding performances and celebrating the moment, we have an habitual anticlimactic moment. It is wrong on so many levels, not the least of which is casting a poor light on our organization from the many new participants, eager to participate in a 'national event'.


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## JoAnn (Jul 21, 2011)

Anyone who shot Tulare knows the final outcome of nationals since they will have their scores and all other 9 regions which have been posted online, someplace,
in one form or another. I am stunned that no one from Tulare has posted on FB or any other social media the scores. how is that possible?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

JoAnn said:


> Anyone who shot Tulare knows the final outcome of nationals since they will have their scores and all other 9 regions which have been posted online, someplace,
> in one form or another. I am stunned that no one from Tulare has posted on FB or any other social media the scores. how is that possible?


In 2014, I helped lead a group of archers from Arizona to shoot in Tulare. This is what they did in 2014.

Tulare results from Friday night's JOAD are generally posted in the venue on Saturday afternoon. They do not give out awards.

Nationals are not compiled at all while the shoot is going on. They then compile it and send it off to USA Archery.

They have never posted their results online, or at least in the past few years.

-Steve


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Again, per Denise at Tulare, the results were emailed to USA Archery weeks ago. The holdup is apparently on USA Archery's end.

Part of my communique with Tulare from Mar 15th ...

"Yes. Charla submitted the scores via email and received a confirmation from sherry. I would have thought they would be up. You would need to contact them
Hope this helps
Denise"


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## JoAnn (Jul 21, 2011)

Prelim results are posted


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

This is a problem I've had with a lot of shoots over the years. I'm glad there are things now like ianseo and bowjunky stepping up posting results or updates. I also love watching the live feeds of different shoots like lancaster ect. This grows archery.

There is no reason you can't have indoor nationals and joad nationals on the same freaking weekend!!!! No reason you can't have scores posted Sunday night of the same weekend!!! Total fail with today's technology!!! It's a reason archery isn't growing. I honestly can't think of one competition where you have to wait weeks to find about the results. It's not only a fail USA archery should be ashamed.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

JoAnn said:


> Prelim results are posted


They were posted and since they left out several areas it's junk data


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...andings-Released-With-All-Locations-Reporting


No, they really are up this time. 9:43 ET


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Still no scores official scores and they still haven't posted joad scores for the bowman classes. Heck 90% of the ties they have are the same shooter. Anyone could fix that in five minutes if they wanted. It's a pretty sad effort!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> Still no scores official scores and they still haven't posted joad scores for the bowman classes. Heck 90% of the ties they have are the same shooter. Anyone could fix that in five minutes if they wanted. It's a pretty sad effort!


I don't think they will become "official" until after April 6.

And - not only the Bowman scores are hosed/missing, there are a whole boatload of para scores that are messed up as well, regardless of which venue. I know Lee Ford shot Georgia, Eric Bennett shot Salt Lake, Jeff Fabry shot Tulare, and Corbin Beu shot New Mexico, and all of their scores have to be re-verified and entered in again.

Something is definitely messed up, and I don't know where. This is why I'm desperately hoping that the venues adopt online scoring for 2016.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> This is why I'm desperately hoping that the venues adopt online scoring for 2016.


That may knock out a lot of potential bidders though.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> That may knock out a lot of potential bidders though.


Maybe. USA Archery is supposed to be investing in a traveling scoring system that's wireless. If (note the if) it's planned properly, the system (that can be broken up to deploy to multiple locations) can go from place to place pretty easily.

It shouldn't be an issue.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> Still no scores official scores and they still haven't posted joad scores for the bowman classes. Heck 90% of the ties they have are the same shooter. Anyone could fix that in five minutes if they wanted. It's a pretty sad effort!


Someone literally copied and pasted all the results into one spreadsheet. Apparently no one in this organization gives a crap about their collective reputation, nor do they value the opinions and desires of their members. They dont take their jobs seriously at all. Its pathetic.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Maybe. USA Archery is supposed to be investing in a traveling scoring system that's wireless. If (note the if) it's planned properly, the system (that can be broken up to deploy to multiple locations) can go from place to place pretty easily.
> 
> It shouldn't be an issue.


So who with USArchery is going to travel to each venue? Becuase I'm not aware that's happening right now. If they sent a person to each venue to show the hosts how to set up the system, that would be great.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ten_Zen said:


> Someone literally copied and pasted all the results into one spreadsheet. Apparently no one in this organization gives a crap about their collective reputation, nor do they value the opinions and desires of their members. They dont take their jobs seriously at all. Its pathetic.


I wouldn't say "no one" but clearly there are some pretty simple jobs that simply aren't being done with a lot of attention to detail.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> So who with USArchery is going to travel to each venue? Becuase I'm not aware that's happening right now. If they sent a person to each venue to show the hosts how to set up the system, that would be great.


If the contract with Rcherz goes beyond the test stage in 2015, then it's pretty easy to set up. If you can plug a cell phone into a power outlet with an adapter, you're able to make it run.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

My thoughts are indoor nationals is really nothing more than a glorified mail in shoot. The way it's run makes it even less prestigious then it is. Just using this as an example and have nothing against Dave but Dave Cousins can shoot where ever he's shooting with a bunch of recurve shooters or 12 year old girls and shoot without any pressure and post scores high enough to win it. Having to actually shoot with your competition on the same day adds a different dimension to the game. 

Imho if their going to have indoor nationals and it's not going to be shot in the same building they need to run all the shoots on the same day and post results the same evening it's finished. It's not that hard of a task and it would make it actually worth shooting.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> My thoughts are indoor nationals is really nothing more than a glorified mail in shoot. The way it's run makes it even less prestigious then it is. Just using this as an example and have nothing against Dave but Dave Cousins can shoot where ever he's shooting with a bunch of recurve shooters or 12 year old girls and shoot without any pressure and post scores high enough to win it. Having to actually shoot with your competition on the same day adds a different dimension to the game.
> 
> Imho if their going to have indoor nationals and it's not going to be shot in the same building they need to run all the shoots on the same day and post results the same evening it's finished. It's not that hard of a task and it would make it actually worth shooting.


Except Dave didn't win - he came in 7th. Running against your competition can sometimes add pressure, but it can also inspire and propel you to your own record setting performance; it can be just as true that it's hard to run solo against the clock and set records.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

lksseven said:


> Except Dave didn't win - he came in 7th. Running against your competition can sometimes add pressure, but it can also inspire and propel you to your own record setting performance; it can be just as true that it's hard to run solo against the clock and set records.


I never said he won. I used him as an example because I couldn't think of a single guy in his division in that area off the top of my head that competes at his level. Like I said I have nothing against dave. He's a great shooter. 

I would also rather run solo against the clock any day of the week. Pretty much every body I watch shoot always shoots better in practice. I watch Bass shoot 450 45x games in practice. I watch gillingham shoot 29x 300 in practice. I watch steve anderson shoot 44x 450 rounds in practice, ect. I don't see them shoot the same scores in games with their competition. There always a few x's down. 

Besides you missed my point all together. Shooting in a mail in tornament on different days or months apart and comparing score isn't what I'd actually call a "prestigious" national shoot. I'll take vegas over indoor nationals any day of the week.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gotta agree somewhat with SWB on this one. It's tougher for most folks to shoot on the same bale with the strongest competition, than to shoot on the same bale with guys you're beating by 50 points. NFAA does a great job with this in Louisville, setting up the 4 most closely ranked archers on each bale. It really makes it a competition within a competition. And it shows. 

For indoor events in this country, I would say Vegas = 1, Louisville = 2 and USArchery indoor nationals = a distant third.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gotta agree somewhat with SWB on this one. It's tougher for most folks to shoot on the same bale with the strongest competition, than to shoot on the same bale with guys you're beating by 50 points. NFAA does a great job with this in Louisville, setting up the 4 most closely ranked archers on each bale. It really makes it a competition within a competition. And it shows. 

For indoor (recurve and compound) events in this country, I would say Vegas = 1, Louisville = 2 and USArchery indoor nationals = a distant third.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Glorified mail in. Lol. You guys crack me up. You know how many people cheat at mail ins? I'm kinda insulted that anyone would even link the two together. 
I hear some say how good shooters push each other to shoot higher, and I hear how too much stress drives the scores down. Here is what I do know. Everyone knows going into us national indoors, you have to shoot great to win. Simple as that. Sounds like a lot of pressure to me. The winner in either format is the one that handles everything the best. 
Actually Louisville is by far my least favorite shoot. It is such a slow shoot. Even though the time is about the same, the downtime is huge in between rounds. I've stood on the line waiting to shoot the bottom line for at least five minutes several times. We had 13 in the class I competed in. Kinda low for a national shoot. Also, there seems to be a class for everyone and age brackets everywhere for people to win bowls. For what it's worth, I shot up in Mass for US nationals. We had about 40% of what Louisville pulled in. Two years ago it was about 20%. Some of these venues might actually come close to Louisville in a few years.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Ttt 
Still no scores or updates.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

You might have noticed that this is a big country. If they held the National indoors in one city, it would be heavy with people from that area, plus wealthier and/or sponsored folks, leaving a lot of people behind. For many others, they'd look at the travel and housing costs and time off from work and decide they couldn't swing it. I attended the single-location Indoor Nationals when it was held in Harrisburg, PA (1978? In the Farm Show Building, a cinder block building). It was just within driving distance from where I lived at the time, and it was cool to see Pace, McKinney and Luann Ryon. If I lived in Calif., I wouldn't have been there.

Currently, there are about 4 USAT outdoor shoots in the US - none within 1200 miles of where I live now. The current plan for Indoor Nationals is not perfect, but it's the highlight of our season (more those of us who are newbys or middle-range enthusiasts), and you do get to compare your best with others'. The delay in scoring is absurd, I'll admit, but the whole thing is worth doing. USAA isn't going to fund the highest 10 scores to come together in a finals somewhere for a more "true" championship. 

We have to schedule our shoot (Sturbridge/Fiskdale MA) when the building can accommodate us. Maybe we should limit it to 3 weekends and somehow force sites to report within 2 days. It can be tweaked, but it serves a good purpose in its current format.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

In its current format the shoot did not draw its best shooters. Think about that for a moment. You hold a national championionship and your best shooters have other things they would rather do.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

You don't have to think too long and hard.... Money. That's what insures the best to come out. When people pay out, almosy everybody comes. In Louisville, only the pros get paid that I know of. For the rest of the classes, I don't think all the best shooters that are out there come. Its usually the case for every shoot no matter what the format is. No pay, no play.
Here's the flip side to the money. Usually money shoots are fairly expensive, well the good payouts are. Now you don't get everyone to come because they can't justify spending that kind of money when they aren't at the top of their game yet. Lancaster has the best format for that. Once you get in the shoot off, everyone has a better chance when its head to head.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Maybe, but I don't think that is the whole story. USAT status is no longer dependent on this shoot. That was big. The shoot apparently doesn't convey the prestige it once did. If it did, more of the talent would have been there. USAA has some work to do or this event will become less and less relevant.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> I never said he won. I used him as an example because I couldn't think of a single guy in his division in that area off the top of my head that competes at his level. Like I said I have nothing against dave. He's a great shooter.
> 
> I would also rather run solo against the clock any day of the week. Pretty much every body I watch shoot always shoots better in practice. I watch Bass shoot 450 45x games in practice. I watch gillingham shoot 29x 300 in practice. I watch steve anderson shoot 44x 450 rounds in practice, ect. I don't see them shoot the same scores in games with their competition. There always a few x's down.
> 
> Besides you missed my point all together. Shooting in a mail in tornament on different days or months apart and comparing score isn't what I'd actually call a "prestigious" national shoot. I'll take vegas over indoor nationals any day of the week.


Agree, you didn't say that Dave won. You did say that he can shoot wherever he is and "shoot without any pressure and post scores high enough to win it". Except, as I said, he didn't win it. So the magic of "not shooting head to head against Braden and Reo wasn't the magic pill. 

In male Masters 50+ recurve, at NAA shooting in College Station with only one other guy there in his division, Tom Stevenson placed 2nd nationally. Two weeks later at NFAA in Louisville, shooting on the same bale as his closest competition (the different dimension adder, as you put it), Tom finished .... wait for it .... 2nd nationally. 

I'm not saying that NAA format is better, or as good. We agree on that. And I didn't miss your point, nor do I disagree with your point. I'm only disagreeing with the insinuation that 1) NAA format is no different than shooting practice (Do you shoot NAA Nationals? It's a lot different than practice), and 2) that it's a slam dunk that proximity to your competition (same target butt) is always a negative. 

Finally, regarding my track analogy, I'd love to be shown where track records are set when the runner is by his/her lonesome, and not being pushed or pulled by competitors off his shoulder or breathing down his neck. Take all the time you need to find the hen's teeth.


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## MHoward (Aug 18, 2008)

The sad news is when the results finally come out...my daughter has pretty much forgotten about it. When I do tell her...its not Nationals...its "that shoot I shot in back when there was snow on the ground?" I feel bad for her as she spends most of indoor preparing for it. After a few weeks of shooting it she stops asking about it. She gets more excited about the smaller state shoots. My 2 cents.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

MHoward said:


> The sad news is when the results finally come out...my daughter has pretty much forgotten about it. When I do tell her...its not Nationals...its "that shoot I shot in back when there was snow on the ground?" I feel bad for her as she spends most of indoor preparing for it. After a few weeks of shooting it she stops asking about it. She gets more excited about the smaller state shoots. My 2 cents.


Agree. The worst part of it is the delay from shooting to posted scores, and there's just no good excuse for that. You could set up a simple system nationwide using Google Docs that would require only that one person at each venue have access to the Internet for about 10 minutes within 72 hours of that venue's shooting conclusion, costing nothing and requiring computer skills that any 10 year old has.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Maybe, but I don't think that is the whole story. USAT status is no longer dependent on this shoot. That was big. The shoot apparently doesn't convey the prestige it once did. If it did, more of the talent would have been there. USAA has some work to do or this event will become less and less relevant.


Bingo!


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## JoAnn (Jul 21, 2011)

Updated results have been posted. JOAD compound results are included


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Do you have a link I can't find them


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...andings-Released-With-All-Locations-Reporting

link is on this page. The link says updated the 26th but the version number for the file has changed.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

TTT

Reminds me of the old Kansas song, 'Dust In The Wind'

Who knows, maybe before Gator Cup.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> TTT
> 
> Reminds me of the old Kansas song, 'Dust In The Wind'
> 
> Who knows, maybe before Gator Cup.


My favorite version is Will Farrell singing it in "Old School" at Blue's funeral ... hilarious.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...-and-JOAD-National-Indoor-Champions-Announced

Finally done, still wrong, too late....


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

This just came in the mail - it appears that pending tasks from Indoor Nationals are being wrapped up.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Not bad I think it's a few months faster than last year. Sarcasim.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Nothing like live scoring. 

If they made all hosting clubs shoot on the same day this could all be avoided!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_JR_ said:


> This just came in the mail - it appears that pending tasks from Indoor Nationals are being wrapped up.


Congratulations!!!!


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