# ASA Rule Changes



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

ASA rule changes for 2019 are up on the ASA web site. Some new classes including Senior Master Known which pleases me to no end.

New Classes: Olympic Recurve, Barebow Recurve, Crossbow 45, Senior Known 50 and Senior Masters Known. We eliminated the Women's Traditional class.

Changes: ASA will no longer offer 1/2 & 1/2 classes. Open B, Open C, Womens Open B are ALL UNKNOWN. Hunter, SR Hunter, High School Open Male & Female and Middle School Open Male & Female are ALL KNOWN.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

carlosii said:


> ASA rule changes for 2019 are up on the ASA web site. Some new classes including Senior Master Known which pleases me to no end.
> 
> New Classes: Olympic Recurve, Barebow Recurve, Crossbow 45, Senior Known 50 and Senior Masters Known. We eliminated the Women's Traditional class.
> 
> Changes: ASA will no longer offer 1/2 & 1/2 classes. Open B, Open C, Womens Open B are ALL UNKNOWN. Hunter, SR Hunter, High School Open Male & Female and Middle School Open Male & Female are ALL KNOWN.


Thanks Carlosi! I know your  !

I kinda like the SK50 idea!


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

No Senior Pro Known- curious as to why this is? Kind of contradicts the ASA direction with the popularity of known....


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Totally agree with you!


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## lazyhubby70 (Jan 10, 2012)

I shoot OC and like that it is all unknown now.


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## Sir SickALot (Jun 19, 2014)

Thank you ASA! Love the Sr Bowhunter being all known!!!!


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## jtelarkin08 (Nov 24, 2009)

I feel like the change to known will make Hunter one of the biggest classes in ASA


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

I would expect that making any class known has the potential to grow that class, as well as make it more competitive. Seems like a win/win for all.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

Except Senior Pro- really puzzled as to why they resist this. I'm sure some of our other "in the know' posters can explain this thought process. Are there a select group of old pros that are able lobby Mike T. and others to not do this? Whats the logic in not having it? I know of quite a few top seniors from other disciplines- i.e. Dots, Field, FITA- who would gladly compete. Look at all the "non 3D" professionals that came into the Known Pro ranks. Its a win win. Who is holding this back? And why? It reeks of IBO mentality based on the latest news from that fiasco.


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## Bishop#74 (May 6, 2018)

So is the only changes to hunter class being all Known? I was thinking about going to that class this year but didn't know if i was going to go to it. Not that good at judging yardage.


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## Bishop#74 (May 6, 2018)

I joined the asa this year and shot in the Bow Novice class and was thinking about going to the Hunter class next year before the rule change but now with the change I will be shooting the hunter class.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

vahylander said:


> Except Senior Pro- really puzzled as to why they resist this. I'm sure some of our other "in the know' posters can explain this thought process. Are there a select group of old pros that are able lobby Mike T. and others to not do this? Whats the logic in not having it? I know of quite a few top seniors from other disciplines- i.e. Dots, Field, FITA- who would gladly compete. Look at all the "non 3D" professionals that came into the Known Pro ranks. Its a win win. Who is holding this back? And why? It reeks of IBO mentality based on the latest news from that fiasco.



Many said that Known distance 3d would never succeed. But coming out of the gate Known distance 3D exploded in popularity and has continued to grow over the last *10* years (K45 began in 2009). Regardless of the proven popularity and growth there are folks with influence that still fight against Known distance 3D. It isn't unusual for people to fight change even if the change is a proven positive. Extremely successful and supposedly highly intelligent business executives have let their businesses fall so far behind there was no coming back before they would acknowledge their mistake and change. American auto manufacturers are a perfect example but fortunately they had a safety net. I would not be surprised if one day the IBO makes a come back but that is not to say that they couldn't be MUCH better right now.

I think the ASA is doing the right thing by starting with a Semi-Pro Senior Known 50 rather than going straight to "Pro". But only as long as they let the successful spot shooting Senior Pro's in this Semi-Pro class. Otherwise it should be an amateur class! I doubt very many Senior Known archers voluntarily move up to Semi-Pro Senior Known.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

The issue still remains though- there is no marked yardage class for a full fledged senior Pro. I don't see current ASA senior Pros going "down" to a semi-Pro class. Why even call it semi pro- is that just to appease a very select, small group of individuals fighting this senior Pro class. Its totally out of character with the general direction of the ASA. You for one- would seriously consider a move into such a class- correct?


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## NP Archery (Jul 29, 2008)

This is likely a "test" to gauge the interest in the development of a Sr. Known Pro class. Something the ASA has been very good at is to first crack a door and see what all comes through it.

As a current Sr. Known guy, I will watch the "new" class and see how it goes.


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Many said that Known distance 3d would never succeed. But coming out of the gate Known distance 3D exploded in popularity and has continued to grow over the last *10* years (K45 began in 2009). Regardless of the proven popularity and growth there are folks with influence that still fight against Known distance 3D. It isn't unusual for people to fight change even if the change is a proven positive. Extremely successful and supposedly highly intelligent business executives have let their businesses fall so far behind there was no coming back before they would acknowledge their mistake and change. American auto manufacturers are a perfect example but fortunately they had a safety net. I would not be surprised if one day the IBO makes a come back but that is not to say that they couldn't be MUCH better right now.
> 
> I think the ASA is doing the right thing by starting with a Semi-Pro Senior Known 50 rather than going straight to "Pro". But only as long as they let the successful spot shooting Senior Pro's in this Semi-Pro class. Otherwise it should be an amateur class! I doubt very many Senior Known archers voluntarily move up to Semi-Pro Senior Known.


according to the current rules, there is no mandatory move-out for any of the Amateur Senior classes. (+) so, anyone who enters Semi-pro Senior Known 50 from anywhere but a Pro division will be volunteering to shoot the class.


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## vahylander (Dec 6, 2007)

allxs said:


> according to the current rules, there is no mandatory move-out for any of the Amateur Senior classes. (+) so, anyone who enters Semi-pro Senior Known 50 from anywhere but a Pro division will be volunteering to shoot the class.


So what marked yardage class can a senior pro from another discipline or organization, or from the current senior pro class move to?


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

idk... i would suspect that a NFAA, FITA, IBO, ETC Senior Pro that wanted to shoot known distance at ASA would be eligible for the Semi-Pro Senior Known 50 ASA class. ??? Where else could they put them? excellent question.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

vahylander said:


> So what marked yardage class can a senior pro from another discipline or organization, or from the current senior pro class move to?


I would think it falls in line with the Womens K45...pro target archers from other organizations are allowed to shoot there...kinda like K-50 allowed pros before the Known Pro class was formed


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## jonfinnell (Nov 26, 2008)

Bishop#74 said:


> So is the only changes to hunter class being all Known? I was thinking about going to that class this year but didn't know if i was going to go to it. Not that good at judging yardage.


 All other stipulations for Hunter class are the same as last year with the exception of being all known now. It’s a fun class with lots of great guys shooting in it. Made a lot of good friends this year, but ended up shooting out and have to move up this year. 
Go for it and have a ball. 


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

jonfinnell said:


> All other stipulations for Hunter class are the same as last year with the exception of being all known now. It’s a fun class with lots of great guys shooting in it. Made a lot of good friends this year, but ended up shooting out and have to move up this year.
> Go for it and have a ball.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yep Hunter is a great class, lots of fun, should be even better with the boost of added participation that all Known could bring.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

allxs said:


> according to the current rules, there is no mandatory move-out for any of the Amateur Senior classes. (+) so, anyone who enters Semi-pro Senior Known 50 from anywhere but a Pro division will be volunteering to shoot the class.


I feel confident that it is simply an oversight and they will have a move up rule. For example: When I won out of K45 the way the rules were written at the time I technically could NOT move to Senior Known. I would expect that a move up rule will be in place by the time the season starts. I expect few guys will voluntarily move up since some manufacturers (Mathews is one) pays out so well in Senior Known. 

I'm hoping the manufacturers move at least some money _out_ of Senior Known and into Semi-Pro Senior Known. I know that is going to make some guys angry at me but it only makes sense. Otherwise the best Senior Known archers will stay in Senior Known and the guys that are angry at my statement still won't win any more money or glory.



vahylander said:


> So what marked yardage class can a senior pro from another discipline or organization, or from the current senior pro class move to?


I fully expect that the ASA will let most any Senior Pro shoot in Semi-Pro Senior Known if he hasn't recently won much money in a *3D* Pro class. There are rules in place for archers to move down a level even from Pro to semi-pro. 



allxs said:


> idk... i would suspect that a NFAA, FITA, IBO, ETC Senior Pro that wanted to shoot known distance at ASA would be eligible for the Semi-Pro Senior Known 50 ASA class. ??? Where else could they put them? excellent question.


In the past they have let _some _senior Pro's shoot in Senior Known so I feel confident they will be allowed to compete in Semi-Pro Senior Known.



Semi-Pro Senior Known is the top of the food chain for those archers over the age of 50 that shoot known distance 3D or would like to shoot Known distance 3D. I very much hope the ASA has a fairly generous policy when it comes to allowing archers to compete in this class.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

ASA allowed legit Pros to shoot K50 class before actually created the Known Pro class, so I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't allow Senior Pros to move into Senior Known as Senior Known will no doubt become the premier class for Seniors, just as Known Pro has become the premier class for pros under 50yrs


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## AngusMoss (Sep 25, 2018)

I’ve never shot an ASA and was wounding If there are any other limitations besides the 290 FPS In the semi-pro class? I’ve Been outta the game for a few years now and was wondering if anyone had any information regarding semi-pro rules and/or requirements for signing up and shooting. I visited the website but didn’t find what I was looking for. And what is up with this “known pro” & “unknown pro” thing I always thought it was 20 shots known and 20 shots unknown?

Thanks,
Angus


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

The rules are posted on the asa web site
Semi pro is 50 yd 290 fps all uknown with open equipment ( adj sight, long stabs etc)
As for signing up that should open back up about November you can do it online or at the tournament
Semi will shoot sat and sun


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

AngusMoss said:


> I’ve never shot an ASA and was wounding If there are any other limitations besides the 290 FPS In the semi-pro class? I’ve Been outta the game for a few years now and was wondering if anyone had any information regarding semi-pro rules and/or requirements for signing up and shooting. I visited the website but didn’t find what I was looking for. And what is up with this “known pro” & “unknown pro” thing I always thought it was 20 shots known and 20 shots unknown?
> 
> Thanks,
> Angus


Known Pro - all targets are known distance
Unknown Pro - actually it's "Open Pro" and all targets are unknown distance. 

Half and half (known-unknown) targets have never been a part of the higher level classes (Open A and up). This year there will no longer be _any_ half and half classes. For example, there is an Open C (unknown) and K40 (known) that are both 40 yard max and considered a novice class. Novice classes do not have a SOY and are immediate move-up classes in that you can "win out" of the class during the season. In the non-novice classes you are not required to "move up" during the season and there is a SOY awarded.


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## lazyhubby70 (Jan 10, 2012)

Kstigall said:


> Known Pro - all targets are known distance
> Unknown Pro - actually it's "Open Pro" and all targets are unknown distance.
> 
> Half and half (known-unknown) targets have never been a part of the higher level classes (Open A and up). This year there will no longer be _any_ half and half classes. For example, there is an Open C (unknown) and K40 (known) that are both 40 yard max and considered a novice class. Novice classes do not have a SOY and are immediate move-up classes in that you can "win out" of the class during the season. In the non-novice classes you are not required to "move up" during the season and there is a SOY awarded.


Has something changed for 2019? In the past just K40 and K30 (bow novice) has been considered novice with immediate move out. I have shot OC for last 2 years. It wasn't immediate move up and had SOY. I like the fact that it is all unknown next year. I was considering going OA to get away from the half/half headache.


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

OC still has soy and move-up is after the complete season , bow novice and k40 are immediate move-up classes.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

why does the asa have a speed limit in known classes?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

J Name said:


> why does the asa have a speed limit in known classes?


Don't have a specific answer, but I will speculate that it's mainly a matter of simplicity and consistency. 
NFAA also has speed limit (which applies to 20yd indoor and outdoor archery alike)
OPA (known distance) has the same speed limit as ASA (299 FPS)


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## jonfinnell (Nov 26, 2008)

J Name said:


> why does the asa have a speed limit in known classes?


 That’s a pretty good question for sure. About the only guess I could come up with might be target life. 
A lot of those targets get pretty blown out by Sunday at an event, I’m betting it would be even worse with very many at 300+. 
Or just for simple consistency among the organization. 


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## Braves-01 (Dec 16, 2015)

Interesting that they are no longer allowing 1/2 and 1/2. Thought ASA was going all known before too long!!


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## Braves-01 (Dec 16, 2015)

I think that target life has a lot to do with it.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Let's hope we have a great year!!


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

So...are there TWO master senior classes...one known, one unknown?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Davik said:


> So...are there TWO master senior classes...one known, one unknown?


Yes sir.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Davik said:


> So...are there TWO master senior classes...one known, one unknown?





sagecreek said:


> Yes sir.


I know why you're surprised


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

nestly said:


> I know why you're surprised


Lol...yeah lied to by ANOTHER archery organization...go figure!


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## Shooters Edge (Feb 6, 2005)

I have heard that the manufacturers view the unknown as being the best of the best and want to maintain that while seeing other classes add known options to grow attendance. There is not enough seniors willing to have both known and unknown senior pro classes. So keeping the one senior class the best of the best makes sense. Follow the money, look at the difference the bow companies offer in the pro known and unknown. Just a theory, but from a good source.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Shooters Edge said:


> I have heard that the manufacturers view the unknown as being the best of the best and want to maintain that while seeing other classes add known options to grow attendance. There is not enough seniors willing to have both known and unknown senior pro classes. So keeping the one senior class the best of the best makes sense. Follow the money, look at the difference the bow companies offer in the pro known and unknown. Just a theory, but from a good source.


The senior shooters make up at least 25% of shooters in attendance and have the income stability to shoot the season. Senior Known was over 100 Super Seniors known around 65 now throw in the Masters and all the 50+year old shooters who are still shooting other classes other then the senior specific ones. We have Known and Unknown in Super senior and Masters.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

I believe a lot of the senior shooters would go to a pro class if they had a senior known pro class


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## agwrestler (Dec 31, 2010)

In theory, no 1/2&1/2 should make the known course flow a lot faster. (Glass, Range, Glass to confirm spot, make shot) x 4-5 shooters should shave an hour off some events.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Shooters Edge said:


> I have heard that the manufacturers view the unknown as being the best of the best and want to maintain that while seeing other classes add known options to grow attendance. There is not enough seniors willing to have both known and unknown senior pro classes. So keeping the one senior class the best of the best makes sense. Follow the money, look at the difference the bow companies offer in the pro known and unknown. Just a theory, but from a good source.


That is what the guys that shoot Senior Pro and Senior Open (unknown) and those that do not like Known distance 3D say. The fact of the matter is that Known distance classes have a much higher attendance than unknown classes even in the Senior class. The reason there is not a Senior Pro Known class is because it would decrease participation in the current Senior Pro class. While at the same time a Senior Pro Known class would *increase* the number of archers over all that compete a hand full (or less) of Senior Pro's have a lot of pull with the ASA and manufacturers. 

A Senior Pro Known class would bring some of the world's finest senior pro archers to ASA tournaments that currently do not compete in the ASA. I am certain many current ASA Senior Pro's absolutely do not want to go up against MORE high end competitors especially those that _know_ their chances of finishing in the top 10 would decrease substantially in a Senior Known Pro class. It is a FACT that any Known distance 3D draws more archers than the same unknown distance 3D in ALL classes including Pro classes. A quick glance at the results of the Senior Pro classes at the LAS Classic and the NFAA and the USA archery national championships will show you why some ASA Senior Pro's do not want a Senior Known Pro class.





vito9999 said:


> The senior shooters make up at least 25% of shooters in attendance and have the income stability to shoot the season. Senior Known was over 100 Super Seniors known around 65 now throw in the Masters and all the 50+year old shooters who are still shooting other classes other then the senior specific ones. We have Known and Unknown in Super senior and Masters.


Anyone that says they do not support a Senior Known Pro Class because the market doesn't support it is either full of crap or completely out of touch with the ASA's _current _customer base!!!!!!!! 


I know ALL of the better current ASA Senior Pro's would do as well or better in a much bigger and across the board more popular Senior Known Pro class. The current ASA Senior Pro's that occasionally come close, maybe, possibly might shoot a decent game would drop another notch or 3 in a Senior Known Pro class because there would be many more quality archers for them to compete against.


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## Bump10 (Dec 13, 2018)

It's a shame that quite a few of us have so stinking far to travel or I would shoot in as many ASA shoots as possible!


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## BStokes (Dec 10, 2008)

ASA does not determine the pro classes. The manufactures do. If they decide to pay pro contingencies in SR. Known Pro you can be assured ASA would have the class.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

BStokes said:


> ASA does not determine the pro classes. The manufactures do. If they decide to pay pro contingencies in SR. Known Pro you can be assured ASA would have the class.


Just wondering how big that manufacturers pie actually is. Some are not only paying the pro classes and semi's, they're spreading the wealth around to some non-pros as well. Just wondering when they might start cutting back. Not that any of it will ever make it down to me.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm thankful for all of the manufacturers support of our sport.


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## bowjoe1800 (Sep 8, 2008)

sagecreek said:


> i'm thankful for all of the manufacturers support of our sport.


amen


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

T&A said:


> I believe a lot of the senior shooters would go to a pro class if they had a senior known pro class


That'd be nice... I'm tired of gett'n my butt whooped. :wink:


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## BStokes (Dec 10, 2008)

carlosii said:


> Just wondering how big that manufacturers pie actually is. Some are not only paying the pro classes and semi's, they're spreading the wealth around to some non-pros as well. Just wondering when they might start cutting back. Not that any of it will ever make it down to me.


They are paying in amateur but the contingencies in pro cost them almost ten times as much. They cannot have a lot of pro classes to pay. I don't think you will ever see more pro classes than there is now, certainly no more than maybe five.


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## Nockonater (Oct 8, 2007)

I like the fact that the Open C and B classes are unknown and the other are known K40,K45,K50. This is a good idea. I always preferred the old days when it was all unkown, but also like that you have a choice if you want to know the distance.


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