# Bow Balancing



## nuts&bolts

cdebruler02 said:


> Does having your bow balanced make a difference. I have heard of people buy back stabilizer bars and extra weights. I have never seen a balancing machine and am unsure if it is necessary. Please give me your thoughts.


Tune your bow Front Heaviness balance so YOU get the BEST results. Balancing your bow on the point of a needle, really has ZERO meaning for how well the bow will perform in YOUR hands. CAse in point.



One of my student's homework assignments. I told him to leave the front stick weight alone. ONLY change the SIDE stick weight. MORE and MORE weight on the SIDE stick means the bow system is LESS FRONT end heavy. LESS and LESS weight on the SIDE stick, means the bow system is now MORE FRONT end heavy. THINK of FOC for an arrow. WORKS exactly the same for a bow stabilizer system. So, is my student's bow "balanced"? NO idea. Will my student's bow balance itself in a balancing machine? No idea and really don't care. I only care about RESULTS based tuning. I only care that my student gets TIGHTER group sizes. FIND the amount of weight on the front stick and the side stick, that gives YOU the amount of bow FRONT HEAVINESS balance, that gives you the RESULTS, the ACCURACY you are seeking.


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## nuts&bolts

cdebruler02 said:


> Does having your bow balanced make a difference. I have heard of people buy back stabilizer bars and extra weights. I have never seen a balancing machine and am unsure if it is necessary. Please give me your thoughts.


I have my students take ONE arrow and fire that ONE arrow 30 times at a target. I call this my 30 shot STRESS TEST. So, what you see, is that with 17 ounces of weight on the SIDE stick, the bow was NOT VERY MUCH front HEAVY. So, what you see, is that with only 14 ounces of weight ON THE SIDE STICK, the bow was the MOST FRONT HEAVY for the experiments. He did the SIDE STICK experiment at 14 ounces, the SIDE STICK experiment at 15 ounces, the SIDE STICK experiment at 16 ounces, and at 17 ounces. PICTURES are worth 1000 words and BEAT any "bow balancing machine". For MY student, 15 ounces of side stick weight gave the BEST group size.



Of course, we also have to play with SIDE stick angles, but you did not ask about SIDE stick angles.


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## nestly

cdebruler02 said:


> Does having your bow balanced make a difference. I have heard of people buy back stabilizer bars and extra weights. I have never seen a balancing machine and am unsure if it is necessary. Please give me your thoughts.


IMO, there's no point in "balancing" a bow except what's done by trial and error as you shoot the bow to see what gives the best results. Different bows have different geometry with regard to the grip and nock point height, so balancing at brace height with a "balancing machine" doesn't mean anything compared to how a bow balances while being held at full draw by an actual person.


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## bardman

NB 
Glad to see you post

Great info as usual


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## carlosii

That back bar presents so many options...swing out, swing in, mount low on riser, mount on higher on riser, swing lower, swing higher, add weight, drop weight...whew! So many choices and so little time. LOL


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## SonnyThomas

Where you been, Alan? Good to see you post up.

OP, to what level or event are you after? Like Alan noted you can get some outstanding results with the right weight on the front stabilizer. No machine, no balancing on a pin will give the balance you need. When adding a back stabilizer or two then weights have to be worked out. Do back stabilizers work? Yes. 

I don't know if Alan has as plan or formula for stabilizers, but George Ryals does, aka Griv. It works, but then people are different and so are bows, thus some adjustment may/will be needed.


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## EPLC

nuts&bolts said:


> I have my students take ONE arrow and fire that ONE arrow 30 times at a target. I call this my 30 shot STRESS TEST. So, what you see, is that with 17 ounces of weight on the SIDE stick, the bow was NOT VERY MUCH front HEAVY. So, what you see, is that with only 14 ounces of weight ON THE SIDE STICK, the bow was the MOST FRONT HEAVY for the experiments. He did the SIDE STICK experiment at 14 ounces, the SIDE STICK experiment at 15 ounces, the SIDE STICK experiment at 16 ounces, and at 17 ounces. PICTURES are worth 1000 words and BEAT any "bow balancing machine". For MY student, 15 ounces of side stick weight gave the BEST group size.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, we also have to play with SIDE stick angles, but you did not ask about SIDE stick angles.


There's a lot of merit to this exercise. I tend to vary from day to day so I'd like to see 4 or 5 iterations to really prove things out. In other words; if you repeat the same drill on day 2, 3 and 4, would you get the same results? I'd also mix up the order of things as well to eliminate any fatigue factors. I'd like to try it myself but my shoulder isn't up to it yet.


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## Padgett

I do my setup based on feel also and I got that good feel and performance from just putting in the time testing different combos. As far as a balancing machine I just use my fingers. If you pinch the sides of the grip you get the front to rear balance and if you pinch in the throat of the grip and a finger on the front of the riser you get the left to right.


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## Mahly

I see zero use for a balancing machine... others might have use for it.
None of my bows ever are set up for a neutral balance, ! always end up with a pretty front heavy set-up, and depending on the shape of the grip, I may end up with more or less side weight.
Examples
Hoyt Rectrix XL NO side weight
STrother Moxie Lots of side weight
Alpine Concorde very little side weight
Prime One Very little to zero side weight.

The Moxie has a much wider and flatter arrow shelf, that combines with XXL hands puts a little imbalance into the mix that the side weight eliminates.

It's all trial and error. Alan's method makes a lot of sense... Though ELPC brings up a good point. 1 test result may not be the do all end all... you may wish to repeat a couple of times. After you find what seems to work best, do NOT change for a few weeks...scores MAY drop in that time while you re-teach yourself how to hold the bow with it's new balance.


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## EPLC

nuts&bolts said:


> I have my students take ONE arrow and fire that ONE arrow 30 times at a target. I call this my 30 shot STRESS TEST. So, what you see, is that with 17 ounces of weight on the SIDE stick, the bow was NOT VERY MUCH front HEAVY. So, what you see, is that with only 14 ounces of weight ON THE SIDE STICK, the bow was the MOST FRONT HEAVY for the experiments. He did the SIDE STICK experiment at 14 ounces, the SIDE STICK experiment at 15 ounces, the SIDE STICK experiment at 16 ounces, and at 17 ounces. PICTURES are worth 1000 words and BEAT any "bow balancing machine". For MY student, 15 ounces of side stick weight gave the BEST group size.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, we also have to play with SIDE stick angles, but you did not ask about SIDE stick angles.


After thinking about it, this drill could very well be used to assess just about every aspect of your form, execution and equipment.


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## thawk

EPLC, I don't see how it shows anything, all 4 targets look good and it could easily be a 5 spot target shot by one person with no changes at all.
Going off that the archer will think that 15oz is his magic weight, what about the next day when he drops 4 points?
Had a shooter this year shoot 300 27x on wen night and 297 17x the next night.


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## EPLC

thawk said:


> EPLC, I don't see how it shows anything, all 4 targets look good and it could easily be a 5 spot target shot by one person with no changes at all.
> Going off that the archer will think that 15oz is his magic weight, what about the next day when he drops 4 points?
> Had a shooter this year shoot 300 27x on wen night and 297 17x the next night.


Like I said, I don't think one round of this proves anything. It "could" be useful for some if applied properly. For those that can't or won't see the value, simply don't use it. One thing I've found in archery is that every bolt doesn't fit every nut.


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> After thinking about it, this drill could very well be used to assess just about every aspect of your form, execution and equipment.


Maybe or maybe not. This is a valid example only if it was performed at a distance where such breakdowns in form, execution, and equipment can truly be assessed. If this was shot from 20 yards inward, it will not tell you very much beyond the very basics. Most competitive target shooters do not seriously evaluate their group tuning at less than 40 yards and most that I know prefer 60+ yards. 

Far too many inconsistencies in form, execution, and equipment can hide quite comfortably and completely at distances of 20 yards and less....


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## SILVERWOLF_73

For what's it's worth I have a dead center balancer I am not a staff shooter but have been shooting a long time at spots. This year I played around with my balancer and weights and finally shoot a 300. Which I never done in the past so I would half to say their is something to a balanced bow.


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## thawk

So do you think you're shooting better because of the balancer or have you changed anything else?

I have also been shooting a long time, and some times I get recharged about archery, and buy something new, weather it be a tool or bow or just about anything, and through the process of experimenting with my new toy I end up shooting more and thus have a good year.

My reason for not putting any confidence in a balancer is this, a balancer uses static weight to balance the bow, it can be balanced with a 20-36" front bar, with a 6-15" side bar, with 3 oz on the front or 30. It can be balanced with a high or low side bar mounting location non of these things matter one bit to the balancer but a shooter can see a huge difference in how each one of these things effects his aiming


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## SILVERWOLF_73

I will try to answer some questions for you. the only thing switched was going from an apex 8 which I shot for years and though that bow was very capable of shooting a 300 I only shot a 299 multiple times. this year I did switch to a 39 victory but everything else was the same except for weight placement on the stabilizers. yesterday I set up my new 37 victory for 3d with a 15 inch bar in front and a 12 inch bar in the back now today I'm going to shoot it in my basement at 20 yds I will post how I think it did. any other questions just ask. I have a dvd on balancing and stablizers I would send you if you promised to send it back. pm me with your address if interested


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## EPLC

SILVERWOLF_73 said:


> I will try to answer some questions for you. the only thing switched was going from an apex 8 which I shot for years and though that bow was very capable of shooting a 300 I only shot a 299 multiple times. this year I did switch to a 39 victory but everything else was the same except for weight placement on the stabilizers. yesterday I set up my new 37 victory for 3d with a 15 inch bar in front and a 12 inch bar in the back now today I'm going to shoot it in my basement at 20 yds I will post how I think it did. any other questions just ask. I have a dvd on balancing and stablizers I would send you if you promised to send it back. pm me with your address if interested


"The only thing switched" was the bow... too funny!


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> Maybe or maybe not. This is a valid example only if it was performed at a distance where such breakdowns in form, execution, and equipment can truly be assessed. If this was shot from 20 yards inward, it will not tell you very much beyond the very basics. Most competitive target shooters do not seriously evaluate their group tuning at less than 40 yards and most that I know prefer 60+ yards.
> 
> Far too many inconsistencies in form, execution, and equipment can hide quite comfortably and completely at distances of 20 yards and less....


While I might agree with much of what you posted, the assertion that "Most competitive archers" do anything the same way is a stretch. In fact; many very successful archers right here on AT have promoted various short range training routines, and many others rave about them. While I'm not a big fan of short range training, there are tools such as this example that "could" increase that value of it for some.


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## Matteo

This is quite interesting as I always try to get the bow to balance almost perfectly in my hand at brace height, and that's where I get my best results.


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## SonnyThomas

Bow balancer device. If anything it gives a starting point and nothing more. No different than Griv's formula. People are different, bows are different. There's the bow (sight) dropping and the bow (sight) rising during the shot sequence and different weight or positioning is required. Same with bow wobble (side to side), it needs weight addressed. These things don't show up until the bow in hand. Bow balanced on a balancer isn't going to show the person if the mass weight is correct for them.

Different combinations can give good results. Here's my MarXman, for 3D, with 3 different stabilizations systems and all made the bow shoot good enough for me. The one in the center, out of some 20 or more club and state sanctioned 3Ds my worst finish for 2014 was a 4th at a ASA State Qualifier. I didn't get to shoot in 2015, shoulder messed up.


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## erdman41

So which came first the set up or the formula? Common sense would tell me the set up and then develop a formula that would get you to that set up. Personally I think the formula route is useless at best and limiting at it's worst.

So my formula could be wing span - ATA = front bar length. Front Bar length divided by two to get front bar weight. Back bar is Brace Height times 2. Back bar weight is back bar length divided by 1.07.

Now I just made that up in about 30 seconds but it would get me to my set up.

What people should do is figure out what there hold is doing and what adding weight where affects it. That is going to be different for different people to depending on their personal shot execution. The only way to do that is to SHOOT YOUR BOW.

Like was said earlier this should be done at distance. Shoot close to work on execution. At 20 yards how many things can you do wrong and still hit the X? I would say for me I can do 50% of the things in my shot I should do and still hit the X? At distance you can also start to marry your hold to your execution. Execution at 20 yards that produces X's doesn't necessarily produce good results at 60 yards. However if it works at 60 it will work at 20. So figure out what execution doesn't mess with your hold at distance and then engrave that execution into your head at close range.

So bottom line if you want to start out with GRIV's formula great. But don't be afraid to venture far away from that starting point also. I'm glad I finally did. Your results may vary.


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## thawk

I agree with erdman, you have to shoot the bow to find out what works, and distance will show problems faster.

What I don't like about nut and bolts drill where 15oz was somehow the right weight for that archers setup is I have shot plenty of 60x rounds where one or more of the spots look like the 15oz target and the others look like a shotgun blast where many of my shots just cut the line.

Just wondering Sonny, what class do you compete in?


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> So which came first the set up or the formula? Common sense would tell me the set up and then develop a formula that would get you to that set up. Personally I think the formula route is useless at best and limiting at it's worst.
> 
> So my formula could be wing span - ATA = front bar length. Front Bar length divided by two to get front bar weight. Back bar is Brace Height times 2. Back bar weight is back bar length divided by 1.07.
> 
> Now I just made that up in about 30 seconds but it would get me to my set up.
> 
> .


Well, I just had to figure that.

72 - 37 1/2 = 34.5 length of front bar. I have a 30" front bar with a 1" long quick disconnect.
34.5 / 2 = 17.25 oz on the front. I have 7 oz on the front.
7.25 x 2 = 14.5 length of back bar (s). I have two 12" back bars, each with 1" long quick disconnects.
14.5 / 1.07 = 13.55 oz on the back bar. I have two back bars, 11 oz on the left and 6 oz on the right.

17.25 ounces on the front and 13.55 ounces on the back. Kind of dumb, isn't it? But then I watched a video the other day on Facebook. This from some training institute overseas, I believe. The author gave no length to the front or back stabilizers. He then gave of starting with a 1 to 3 ratio. Okay, 1 ounce up front, 3 ounces on the back. This would be fine, I guess, but then I could count the weights on his bow. He had a front 10 degree down stabilizer (at least 30") with 14 ounces on the front. His back stabilizer was maybe 15" long with 20 or 21 ounces on the end. This nearer to a 1 to 1.5 ratio.....I liked where he drew back and his release fired right before he was fully anchored. Great actor as he never gave any indication the shot got away from him.....

Beings Griv has been around the block more times than most I'll go with his formula and adjust from there...


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## erdman41

SonnyThomas said:


> 17.25 ounces on the front and 13.55 ounces on the back. Kind of dumb, isn't it?


To you maybe not to me but then again that was the point.


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> To you maybe not to me but then again that was the point.


Point being no one has stated the formulas or balance device is perfect. It's just a starting place....No different the draw length formulas and fist against the wall stuff.


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## erdman41

SonnyThomas said:


> Point being no one has stated the formulas or balance device is perfect. It's just a starting place....No different the draw length formulas and fist against the wall stuff.


And my point don't be afraid to experiment way far away from some arbitrary formula. 

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## SILVERWOLF_73

I liked your response EPLC about too funny but here's what I think is funny I have been shooting indoors for many years and have switched bows many times and never still could shoot a perfect now matter what bow I used now isn't it funny after using a balancer and trying different weight combinations I finally not only shoot a perfect but also have a improved x count. so in reality i'm the one laughing. good luck with your shooting


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## erdman41

SILVERWOLF_73 said:


> I liked your response EPLC about too funny but here's what I think is funny I have been shooting indoors for many years and have switched bows many times and never still could shoot a perfect now matter what bow I used now isn't it funny after using a balancer and trying different weight combinations I finally not only shoot a perfect but also have a improved x count. so in reality i'm the one laughing. good luck with your shooting


Now this might sound jerky but not intended to be. But if someone can't shoot a 300 with a variety of stabilizer combinations there are other form or mental game issues. Addressing those will raise your game way more than a stab setup.

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## montigre

EPLC said:


> While I might agree with much of what you posted, the assertion that "Most competitive archers" do anything the same way is a stretch. In fact; many very successful archers right here on AT have promoted various short range training routines, and many others rave about them. While I'm not a big fan of short range training, there are tools such as this example that "could" increase that value of it for some.


I was not saying short range training is not a good practice...what I was saying is you cannot establish if you're shooting the proper stabilizer weight combination (the topic of the post), or discern precise form or equipment issues from distances less than 20 yards as accurately as you can at farther distances... 

"Most competitive archers" pertained only to the subject of group tuning. Please read and digest the entire post before discounting what was stated.


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## thawk

Well silverwolf it would be very easy to show EPLC he is wrong for laughing.
If you still have your apex8 throw it in the balancer and go pound out a few 300's, if changing bows had nothing to do with you shooting a 300 after all your years it's that simple.


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> Now this might sound jerky but not intended to be. But if someone can't shoot a 300 with a variety of stabilizer combinations there are other form or mental game issues. Addressing those will raise your game way more than a stab setup.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I'll agree. I think shot my first 300 5 spot with my still have 8", 10 oz. NAP Shock Blocker or possibly my still have mixed 7 3/3" 10 oz. Hoyt Vexor/Apex.
Later, I shot 300s on the 5 spot with a 30" Cartel with 3 ounces and more and whatever a MaxJaX weighs. I have a IAA Plaque on the wall for winning the IAA Indoor Aggregate (combo 5 spot and Vegas) that has a 897 score and I know for sure I never shot a 300 in either. In fact, I don't remember shooting a 300 in any IAA event, 299 being my highest, but managed to place and win a handful of times (Illinois for you). I never went with back bars until 3 years ago... When I did go with a true back bar, a 10" Stinger with weights, I had what I thought decent, but not quite there. I had a ASA Senior Pro watch bow reaction throughtout (full draw through end of shot) and he made the decision to lighten the front stab. It worked....


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## SILVERWOLF_73

I really have never shot 5 spot I always shoot vegas style nothing against 5 spot now it's just no one around shoots that, and I still do have my apex 8 that bow could dirve a tac all day long I came really close to shooting a 300 vegas many times with it but just never could pull it off


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## EPLC

Still, you changed not only you stabilizer setup, you changed from your Apex to a Victory. These bows are like night and day. As suggested, setup the Apex in the balancer and see how you do.


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## bigHUN

I don't believe in the formula, any formula...you can eventually build one for yourself but useless in wide a spectrum. 
Why?
Because you preload your holding weight to some amount where you set the limit of your DL , that your back "wall" either is on a cables or on the hard limb stop....regardless if you use a hump in the valley or not, that will effect not only the front-rear balance but also your torque on the grip, then you start misinterpreting it or try to fix it with a side bar....

I do pre-balance all my new bows and it is a very good starting point.
I use the sidebars in same plane as the front rod, the L side is a bit more open then the R side, and the weight difference is +3 washers on L.
These are all OK bows in past several years, I like them L-R neutral balanced, the front-rear I trick with holding weight. 
Works for me
From day to day practice-training-tournaments I know there will be 1 or 2 washers difference somewhere and I have a small little bag washers in my quiver all the time.
And, I don't do any tuning on my equipment below 50 meters, 20 yards is definitely not long enough distance to read the most important errors or flaws.


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## SonnyThomas

Does anyone know who George Ryals, aka Griv, is? If you're better than he is, say so....

Formulas aren't formed from one bow or one person. They formed over a multitude of bows and people. No one has said the formula perfect, just a starting point from where one can go any direction they want.....You sure don't want some one starting out with 30 ounces on the just the front stabilizer or just the back bar.....

There's a formula for FOC, actually two formulas. One uses the full length of the arrow, point and all. One uses cut shaft length. Take your pick. Both say to balance the arrow for center. The entire arrow is balanced, but then the full length of arrow nock isn't used in finding lengths....The thing about FOC is it's your FOC, not some one else's. You work with what FOC you find. If wanting more, you adjust to get what you want or what gives the best for your set up.

Two draw length formulas exist. WS/2.5 varies from one end to the other. WS-15/2 remains even from one end to the other. Which is right? Neither, but both are starting points....


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## erdman41

About 10 minutes in.

https://youtu.be/a61APAeLjXU

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## jmclfrsh

I see the merit in the OP. Confidence is a huge part of this game and if the person thinks that 15oz will let him or her shoot great groups, it's worth trying for awhile.

That was 30 arrows at each one, and probably at 20 yards. If that is what that person is shooting all the time, who gives a hoot what it does at 40 yards. Give me a break. It's shooting bullet holes at the distance they felt was appropriate for the experiment. I doubt if they were five feet away.

Some people on here just want to criticize everything. When you are a national champion then your opinions might hold water. Otherwise it's just typed pablum. Me included.


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## erdman41

Those targets are from 7 or 10 yards per N&B instruction. If they are shooting that at 20 yards they are not working with N&B.

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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> About 10 minutes in.
> 
> https://youtu.be/a61APAeLjXU
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


10 minutes....You'll have to type it out. My stupid computer with Explore won't allow YouTube. With FireFox ten minutes is like 10 hours. Yeah, out in the country, down 220 feet, no DSL, all I have is Dial Up. Screw satellite, only $90 per month....


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## bigHUN

I am on a borderline nothing below 20 belong here @ IA and why we are still commenting......


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## Pete53

my 2 cents: I do like a side stabilizer 12 inch with 13 oz.`s of weight and a 36 inch stabilizer in front 2 oz.of weight I also have small weights extra on my bow, I shoot a old silver stano hinge,not many archer`s remember that old hinge but sonny does.because I shoot a hoyt podium bow and all hoyts kick so stabilization and weight is important for us old guys so our bows stay still better and don`t kick to much,my bow weighted the way it is would balance on a nail. and believe me taking alot of the kick out of my bow sure helps my old beat up shoulders a lot. hope you figure out what works best for you,Pete53


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## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> 10 minutes....You'll have to type it out. My stupid computer with Explore won't allow YouTube. With FireFox ten minutes is like 10 hours. Yeah, out in the country, down 220 feet, no DSL, all I have is Dial Up. Screw satellite, only $90 per month....


He's talking about loading the front to control horizontal and the back to control vertical movement, which is the exact thing I have found.

I have also found that it takes more to control the horizontal than the vertical, but then loading up the rear helps with aiming and follow through, The back then becomes dependent of the front, usually on a 2 to 1 scale, meaning, if I add one to the front, I will need to add two to the back to keep it from wanting to sink on me. That's not a small jump in weight at 3oz at a time, so I've also found that smaller adjustments can be made by adding mass weight to the riser. If I get up to 3oz, I move it to the bars. At the weight I'm at now, I seem to need three on the back to go up one on the front, so mass weight is a better way to fine tune.

That's how it works for me to keep it easy to aim, and very little movement at the shot. If I hold it out at brace, It will nose dive. It's not even close to balancing, either forward, or sideways.


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## nestly

SonnyThomas said:


> Does anyone know who George Ryals, aka Griv, is? If you're better than he is, say so....
> 
> Formulas aren't formed from one bow or one person. They formed over a multitude of bows and people. No one has said the formula perfect, just a starting point from where one can go any direction they want....


Formulas for stabilizer weight and stabilizer length don't work (even as a starting point), unless the initial balance of the bow is included in the formula. Easiest way to prove that is to take an old style target bow like Ragsdale and the other great shooters of that era used and bolt on a stabilizer using Griv's formula (or vice versa). Granted, the "formula" probably assumes the bow will be relatively well balanced even without any stabs, which was not the case for extremely deflexed and extremely reflexed bows in the past, but it still demonstrates that the bow design is a significant factor in how a bow needs to be weighted.


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## montigre

erdman41 said:


> Those targets are from 7 or 10 yards per N&B instruction. If they are shooting that at 20 yards they are not working with N&B. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


You can read the paper and tell they were not shot at 20 yards and I am really not sure why that post was made as an example here... That exercise in confidence building is going to bite that student in the arse when they move back to regulation shooting distances if their stab weight distribution is not re-evaluated.

I liked that Bow Junky series and set my weights up pretty much the same. When I get the hold and feel at the shot that I'm looking for, I will make a mental note of what the final ratio came out to be so if I do need to make a change (generally due to my endurance level on a particular day), I can maintain the ratio that works for my set up without throwing everything else off.

Finding the right stabilizer weight combinations is a dynamic process and I do not believe you can get the best results measuring for an arbitrary static balance point, especially if you shoot distance games.


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## Mahly

Not one to refer to what "the pros" do, but it is pretty apparent that just looking at some of the best archers in the world, you're not going to find a formula for placing weights other than "experiment and see what helps".

See some pros with a side bar almost straight back, some almost straight out to the side, some with no side/back bar at all

Trying to find a formula that would fit these guys...or even imagining what their bows would look like on a balancer...


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## thawk

erdman41 said:


> Those targets are from 7 or 10 yards per N&B instruction. If they are shooting that at 20 yards they are not working with N&B.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Post of the year


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## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> He's talking about loading the front to control horizontal and the back to control vertical movement, which is the exact thing I have found.
> 
> I have also found that it takes more to control the horizontal than the vertical, but then loading up the rear helps with aiming and follow through, The back then becomes dependent of the front, usually on a 2 to 1 scale, meaning, if I add one to the front, I will need to add two to the back to keep it from wanting to sink on me. That's not a small jump in weight at 3oz at a time, so I've also found that smaller adjustments can be made by adding mass weight to the riser. If I get up to 3oz, I move it to the bars. At the weight I'm at now, I seem to need three on the back to go up one on the front, so mass weight is a better way to fine tune.
> 
> That's how it works for me to keep it easy to aim, and very little movement at the shot. If I hold it out at brace, It will nose dive. It's not even close to balancing, either forward, or sideways.


Thanks, cbrunson. I've read of this and seen a short couple videos giving of the same. All give of a 1 to 3 ratio, but shooting gave to the ratio dropping as weight was added. One gave of a 1 to 2.2 ratio and the other 1 to 1.8 ratio. This adding more to the back to offset or correct that added to the front. So very much in line with what you've noted.....Satisfies the mind when several all go in the same direction......


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## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Thanks, cbrunson. I've read of this and seen a short couple videos giving of the same. All give of a 1 to 3 ratio, but shooting gave to the ratio dropping as weight was added. One gave of a 1 to 2.2 ratio and the other 1 to 1.8 ratio. This adding more to the back to offset or correct that added to the front. So very much in line with what you've noted.....Satisfies the mind when several all go in the same direction......


The main point being that yes you will have to experiment to find the best results "for you", but for the noob, just starting out, that ratio is a good starting point to get on the right track, when he doesn't really know what it needs. Anywhere in the 2:1, 3:1 ballpark will work depending on stab lengths.

My rule of thumb: Front controls movement, back controls aiming.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> The main point being that yes you will have to experiment to find the best results "for you", but for the noob, just starting out, that ratio is a good starting point to get on the right track, when he doesn't really know what it needs. Anywhere in the 2:1, 3:1 ballpark will work depending on stab lengths.
> 
> *My rule of thumb: Front controls movement, back controls aiming*.


Please explain this rule of thumb.


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## bigHUN

forget about pro's, if you would be that natural talent + very hard working (in my opinion = a full time job) then you would develop a perfect torque in your grip to counter-balance that single sided weight.
I am not that so perfect  and I need both sidebars for my long range shooting to calm down the sight picture. This is my setup for all weather conditions, and currently I have only one tournament bow so I am not going to play with take it down and put it back...
:set1_thinking: Seeing also recently more people with both sidebars...this only way if they want to play with me :icon_1_lol:


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## Longlost

Ok where/what is Grivs formula?


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## montigre

Longlost said:


> Ok where/what is Grivs formula?


Do a search over in general archery--it's been posted there many times.


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## Longlost

Searched here and only found this thread. Googled it - http://www.archerylearningcenter.com/blog/


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Please explain this rule of thumb.


Sorry, not here.


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## sharkred7

cbrunson said:


> Sorry, not here.


Dare ya!:wink:

Seriously though, I would like to know your thoughts on this. Shot me a PM or something.

John


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## Rick!

Just to add to the mix, it will save a lot of time to have at least three lengths of front stab and two rear stab lengths and a bunch of weights. Without a stable of bars, you can tune til you're blue in the face and only get halfway to a really good sight picture, hold, float, etc. There are also some fundamentals that need to be in place before tuning; namely a proper grip, proper form, know what soft hands means, and a DL within an 1/4" (long at this point is better than short, for me). I first set my bow up to have the nock point and cam timing where I get the steadiest hold with zero stabs. Then, if you know how to interpret your sight picture and feel, it takes about an hour to get dialed in at 20 yards. And just to throw more numbers out there, my long ATA bow is at 30" front with a 15" rear with almost a 1:1 weight ratio. My shorter ATA bow is 33" out front with a 12 inch rear at a 1:1.5 front to rear weight ratio plus a bit over 10oz added directly to the riser. Like Scott said, don't be afraid to experiment, phone a friend or borrow a stab or two to figure out what you're bow wants you to do.


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## SonnyThomas

I don't know of a lot shooters that has a stable full stabilizers. My one bow has now been setup in 5 manners; no back stabs, a Bernie's double dampener, a single back back and two back bars and weighted different with the two back bars. The bow just plain shoots. 

I took it down yesterday, not liking the weight. Had 23 ounces on and now 12 ounces. Getting towards evening I finished with some satisfaction. More shooting will tell. 
Using 1 shot drill, 13 shots in the ragged hole and the 2 upper right due to me.


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## grantmac

I definitely ran into too much mass last night. Was trying to get rid of a vertical movement and kept adding weight on the back without positive effect. Movement slowed but didn't decrease in amplitude.
As I added back weight the float did however get wider.

I think a shortening of DL might have been a better plan. The bow feels a bit long. Can anyone comment on movement as it relates to DL? It was really nice at the start of the float then just seemed to get worse rather than settling like usual.

Grant


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## redman

Any time I work on draw length and loop length I take all he stabilizers off


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## montigre

grantmac said:


> I think a shortening of DL might have been a better plan. The bow feels a bit long. Can anyone comment on movement as it relates to DL? It was really nice at the start of the float then just seemed to get worse rather than settling like usual. Grant


Generally, if your sight picture looks like a 2 year old coloring; small jerky movements that are all over the scoring area, your DL is likely too short. If the sight picture resembles a large figure-8 around the scoring area with a sudden shot off into the 8 or 7 ring then (maybe) back, the DL is too long. 

Also, when too long, the sight will tend to settle in below the dot, if it does settle at all. The greater your DL is off from your ideal, the more pronounced these effects will be perceived.


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## grantmac

More like a slow vertical figure 8 that wanted to drop out. It was like the float had momentum that wanted to carry it away from center.

I took all the stabs off and started with DL then D-loop. Ended up a bit shorter on both. Might be a trifle short on DL but that I can deal with. Float is definitely tighter with less dropping.

Added stabs back with less weight on both and the rear angled down a lot to give substantial forward bias since this bow likes that (VE with Spirals).

Part of the reason I started down this rabbit hole is that I went with more powerful lens on a shorter extension. My float looked very different but I liked how the sight picture came together. Good thing I'm only playing at indoor this year. Definitely not the setup I'd use outside.

Grant


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## EPLC

DL is critical, IMO much more so than stabilizer setup. I just changed my Podium over to Spirals from GTX and was experimenting with small DL changes. I felt I was a tad short because I was pulling my shot off center left (I shoot lefty). I went through a process of backing off my limbs 1/2 turn at a time until things settled down. I got to two full turns before the bow really settled down with each half turn showing improvement. Prior to this DL increase various stabilizer mods produced absolutely zero positive effect. Now with this change I think some playing with the bars/weights may just produce something positive.


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## erdman41

Wonder what formula he used?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1040160852730829&id=205638652849724

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## SonnyThomas

Wouldn't play. Had "Connecting" on my Windows Player, then Opening Media and Windows can't play.


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## duc

EPLC said:


> DL is critical, IMO much more so than stabilizer setup. I just changed my Podium over to Spirals from GTX and was experimenting with small DL changes. I felt I was a tad short because I was pulling my shot off center left (I shoot lefty). I went through a process of backing off my limbs 1/2 turn at a time until things settled down. I got to two full turns before the bow really settled down with each half turn showing improvement. Prior to this DL increase various stabilizer mods produced absolutely zero positive effect. Now with this change I think some playing with the bars/weights may just produce something positive.


Or did it settle down because you were decreasing draw and hold weight? Which I think is the most likely reason.


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## nochance

SonnyThomas said:


> Wouldn't play. Had "Connecting" on my Windows Player, then Opening Media and Windows can't play.


if i remember correctly he had 26 on the rear and 26 on the front. But increased the front to 32 oz to help in the wind. he also said it took him close to a year to get use to that kind of weight.


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## SonnyThomas

3.625 pounds of weights, plus, bow, plus sights. At my age I'd never get use to that.....


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## erdman41

nochance said:


> if i remember correctly he had 26 on the rear and 26 on the front. But increased the front to 32 oz to help in the wind. he also said it took him close to a year to get use to that kind of weight.


He had 26 oz on a 33" bar. For the wind went to a 27" bar with 32 oz on it.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## SonnyThomas

Dead Center Pro Balancer, $289.99. One of the archery shops I frequent now has one. Read what was on Dead Center's webpage, nothing really. Stick bow in and ?????? Bow is set how? Doesn't mention levels for the bow and I didn't see any on the device. Side weight isn't to offset the sight or sight frame. A sight or sight frame is just too close to the center of mass to warrant the huge amount of weight and leverage (length of stab or back bar (s)) some use. If I want tip forward how is this device to know?
The shop owner didn't help with description of; "The bow to sit square in one's hand during and after the shot."

No levels, no measurements taken, but ????
"Adjust stabilizer weight and mount position to achieve proper balance. Shoot the bow groups and return the bow to the Pro Bow Balancer as needed to make effective fine tune to the individual needs of the shooter."


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## dmacey

nuts&bolts said:


> Tune your bow Front Heaviness balance so YOU get the BEST results. Balancing your bow on the point of a needle, really has ZERO meaning for how well the bow will perform in YOUR hands. CAse in point.


Ah, good to see you posting again. You'll find I/A hasn't changed a bit - it's right where you left it .

DM


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## DedDeerWalking

Maybe I missed it but did anyone touch on the theory of putting the side bar on the same side as the sight ? I have been seeing it more and more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SonnyThomas

DedDeerWalking said:


> Maybe I missed it but did anyone touch on the theory of putting the side bar on the same side as the sight ? I have been seeing it more and more.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've never seen this done. Right handed, back bar on left. Left handed, back bar on right. I use two back bars, left with more weight and right with less weight.


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> I've never seen this done. Right handed, back bar on left. Left handed, back bar on right. I use two back bars, left with more weight and right with less weight.


Chris Bee runs a side bar on the right:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmVb8IZ2Nkc

DM


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## thawk

Scott Starnes also runs his on the right side


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## catcherarcher

Which side you run the back bar on depends on grip. I'm right handed and used to run mine on the right side, changed my grip and started having to run it on the left. It also depends on hand and grip shape.


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