# Future Silver SENIOR Pro Division



## Pete53

first thing i would like to mention is get your NFAA director`s inolved in this change and there is one diector helping me already and i do thank him. my first comment is this ,once you reach the age of 60 your muscle mass is just not that good anymore and health issues are starting to be a facter in alot of us ,specially if you had a physical job as i did.so competing with 50 year olds most of the time they are going to shoot much better.also alot of people that retire around 60 years of age my want to start shooting archery either more or may think this would be a great hobbie to start and may want to do the silver senior pro thing, by now they have a little extra money and this just might be the sport they may want to do.so maybe its time for the NFAA to consider silver senior pro division,they just may pick up more members and more people joining and paying the fee to be in the pro division.
why not its a win-win situation. Pete53


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## FV Chuck

Pete53 said:


> Let`s all take another look on how we can convince the NFAA to start a Silver Senior Pro Division soon maybe even by January 2014 . Let`s try to be positive and respect everyone`s comments too . I do plan on making a couple of comments also in a respectful manner. thank you,Pete53


Totally respectful response here Pete - 

Keep in mind for a rule change like this, it goes to the Board of Directors for the meeting in February. If they vote favorably, it would become a rule in June of 2014.
Not trying to dash your hopes of a January change, just putting it out there..

Sounds like your off to a good start by getting Directors involved and gathering support, hopefully it goes in a good direction. 

Best..
Chuck


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## coachbernie

Sounds like an idea that deserves some thought....hope you can get enough support to get an agenda item submitted in time for 2014 season. It's not like the NFAA has any shortage of classes...one more can't hurt!!


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## 2413gary

coachbernie said:


> Sounds like an idea that deserves some thought....hope you can get enough support to get an agenda item submitted in time for 2014 season. It's not like the NFAA has any shortage of classes...one more can't hurt!!


Just my opinion to many classes are what's killing the NFAA adding one more will hurt.


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## Pete53

this maybe the class that can support itself,it does deserve its chance.now i am going to be nice about it but there are some other NFAA classes that are not supporting themself,and i will not mention what classes they are . Pete53


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## field14

I well remember that for the amateur classes, there used to be a rule concerning the number of participants in the class and how many places were awarded: I don't recall the exact name of the rule...but....To award only first place, there had to be 3 participants. To award two places, there had to be at least 5 participants; and to award 3 places, there had to be at least 7 participants in the shooting class. Thus, if there were only one or two participants in a class or style...NO award was given.

I'm thinking perhaps that 3-5-7 rule needs to be reapplied; especially in light of Silver Bowls having gone out to Classes where only ONE person was in it. I won't name those that I know about (I've seen those persons' Silver Bowls that were the only participant in their class/shooting style), but it has gone on in the past.
Some shooting styles have been eliminated due to lack of participation, but IMHO, not enough of them. Of course, the Pros eliminated the FS Limited, and that lasted all of six months, and it was reinstated effective June 1, 2013.
We gotta get real, and in the amateur classes, we need to stop giving awards to people for just showing up to shoot. 
In the Professional Division, the money payout table pretty much takes care of how many get paid, what percent they get paid, and it IS based upon number of participants in each Shooting Style in the Professional Division.
Of course this depends upon whether or not the host site USES the NFAA Payout Table or not, or if they make up their own.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## 2413gary

Be not afraid if we don't fix the problem NFAA will die. This is where I would start combine freestyle limited and Bowhunter freestyle limited. Then combine Barebow and Bowhunter. Only two senior divisions 50 to 60 and 60 and up. For all classes including pro.
Gary


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## Pete53

i really like field 14`s "3-5-7 rule" that will take all the problems with classes for trophies and money.gary you are very right about some of those classes.the only problem i see with these great ideal is how do we handle the 70 years of age an up ?? many of those 70 something people have probably been shooting a long time we do need to keep them shooting and again that 3-5-7 rule may work i just don`t want them thrown under the rug. maybe for the kid classes with low numbers give them a $5.00 medal for shooting in the event to go along with the 3-5-7 rule. i do like both ideals and i hope the NFAA director`s are taking notes.Pete53


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## field14

Pete53 said:


> i really like_ field 14`s "3-5-7 rule" _that will take all the problems with classes for trophies and money.gary you are very right about some of those classes.the only problem i see with these great ideal is how do we handle the 70 years of age an up ?? many of those 70 something people have probably been shooting a long time we do need to keep them shooting and again that 3-5-7 rule may work i just don`t want them thrown under the rug. maybe for the kid classes with low numbers give them a $5.00 medal for shooting in the event to go along with the 3-5-7 rule. i do like both ideals and i hope the NFAA director`s are taking notes.Pete53


Not "my" rule at all. When I first started NFAA competitions in the later 1960's and through the 1970's that's the way it was. Then something changed and the everyone makes the team, everyone gets to bat, and everyone gets something just for showing up syndrome started and caught hold.

The problem is that even with a 3-5-7 rule in effect, if a club has to purchase enough awards to cover all the shooting styles and classes...they'll go bankrupt, and in addition have tons of awards lying around that never get used...because the classes/styles are there but either have only one or two competitors (wouldn't qualify for an award), or none at all.
Once again, with regard to money payout for the NFAA Pros, the payout table pretty much solves this problem, excepting the determination of which shooting style/class gets what with regard to participatory level of that particular style/class among the entire "Pro" Division. If you have 100 "Pros", and 40 of them are Men's Senior Freestyle...then common sense dictates that first...ALL of their registration monies for the 40 of them goes to Men's Senior Freestyle and nowhere else. Then, it would seem that if there are 'other monies' to be distributed...the Men's Senior Freestyle should get 40% of that money added in, since their participatory level of the 100 total Pros is 40%. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is fair and equitable to all. 

So, if we have a Silver Senior, then the above would hold true based upon how many SS Pros there are at a given event. If there are only a few, then obviously the % of the extra monies (besides registration payback) will be lower.


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## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Once again, with regard to money payout for the NFAA Pros, the payout table pretty much solves this problem, excepting the determination of which shooting style/class gets what with regard to participatory level of that particular style/class among the entire "Pro" Division. If you have 100 "Pros", and 40 of them are Men's Senior Freestyle...then common sense dictates that first...ALL of their registration monies for the 40 of them goes to Men's Senior Freestyle and nowhere else. Then, it would seem that if there are 'other monies' to be distributed...the Men's Senior Freestyle should get 40% of that money added in, since their participatory level of the 100 total Pros is 40%.


For NFAA Pro/Money events... this is already the current model. Payout Pots are determined by number of participants in the class..pot is divided according to existing chart in NFAA CBL


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> For NFAA Pro/Money events... this is already the current model. Payout Pots are determined by number of participants in the class..pot is divided according to existing chart in NFAA CBL


Works out beautifully, easy to calculate, and everyone knows how it was done, so few, if any questions are raised about it.


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## FS560

The "Unit Rule" has been around for a long time. Some states use it (VA does) and some do not. For 1, 2, or 3 shooters, there is 1st place award. For 4, 5, or 6 shooters, 1st and 2nd place awards. For 7 shooters or more, three places are awarded.

I just cannot believe what they did at the Feb 2013 directors meeting regarding additional styles, divisions, etc. It is like they were living a "small pond wet dream". Serves me right for going on a 50th wedding celebration cruise instead of the directors meeting. I doubt if a 50th wedding celebration directors meeting would have been tolerated, likely would not make it to 51 years.


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## Pete53

does anyone have an ideal how many more senior pro`s came into that class when they change it down to 50 years of age? did some of the older senior pros quit or just not show up anymore? are the winner`s of that senior pro class now mostly the younger 50 year olds ? does many of the 60 year olds seem able to compete with 50 year olds ? these are the questions that kinda need to be answered, this just maybe is the reasons why a silver senior pro class is needed ? when i was 50 years of age i know i shot much better but at 60 years of age and i also know i can`t anymore .it really would be interesting to know if these questions could be answered ?? and not a guess. Pete53


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## Rolo

Pete53 said:


> does anyone have an ideal how many more senior pro`s came into that class when they change it down to 50 years of age? did some of the older senior pros quit or just not show up anymore? are the winner`s of that senior pro class now mostly the younger 50 year olds ? does many of the 60 year olds seem able to compete with 50 year olds ? these are the questions that kinda need to be answered, this just maybe is the reasons why a silver senior pro class is needed ? when i was 50 years of age i know i shot much better but at 60 years of age and i also know i can`t anymore .it really would be interesting to know if these questions could be answered ?? and not a guess. Pete53


Since the change only became effective on June 1, it's a wee bit early for any realistic answer to those questions...


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## wa-prez

2413gary said:


> Just my opinion to many classes are what's killing the NFAA adding one more will hurt.


Well, adding Pro Silver Senior isn't adding one more class, it would be six (Male and Female, Freestyle, Freestyle Limited, and Freestyle Limited Recurve).

I'm curious how many Pro's NFAA actually has? We only have 2-3 in Washington. Is there an active campaign to recruit more pros so they are similar in number to the non-pros?

AND, since the rationale for Silver Senior Pro is they (folks age 60 and up) are not competitive against the 50-59 year old Senior Pros ... Maybe it would be time to drop back to non-pro. I think it is legal to do that when you reach an older age cagegory without the year sit-out penalty. And the folks this would affect probably meet the low-winnings threshold anyway.

A PROFESSIONAL is someone skilled and expert in a field!


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## Pete53

really if you are only competing for money and use the rule 3-5-7 does it matter how many silver senior pro`s show up ? i think at the bigger shoots at least the male free style silver senior pro division will have plenty of shooters,maybe as many or more than the now 50 year old senior pro`s division .there are alot of classes or divisions as some of us have said with only a few shooters now.that`s why the 3-5-7 rule should always be used and thats just a great way to police low volume classes.maybe us 60 year olds still want to compete a little for money and not be put in the corner or put under the rug.those other 5 silver senior classes nobody seems to be asking for them.i am asking for one class the silver senior male freestyle pro class age 60-70 and just use the 3-5-7 rule " very simple" glad field 14 let us know that a rule like that is possible. Pete53


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## field14

Pete53 said:


> really if you are only competing for money and use the rule 3-5-7 does it matter how many silver senior pro`s show up ? i think at the bigger shoots at least the male free style silver senior pro division will have plenty of shooters,maybe as many or more than the now 50 year old senior pro`s division .there are alot of classes or divisions as some of us have said with only a few shooters now.that`s why the 3-5-7 rule should always be used and thats just a great way to police low volume classes.maybe us 60 year olds still want to compete a little for money and not be put in the corner or put under the rug.those other 5 silver senior classes nobody seems to be asking for them.i am asking for one class the silver senior male freestyle pro class age 60-70 and just use the 3-5-7 rule " very simple" glad field 14 let us know that a rule like that is possible. Pete53


Pete,
_The MONEY class does NOT need a 3-5-7 rule, nor in my opinion should a 3-5-7 rule ever be placed for MONEY shooters._. You cannot take away money from those that have paid money into their purse, now can you?
Can you imagine the wrath that would fall about your head and shoulders if you advertised a 75% payback of registration fees and only TWO "Pros" show up, pay their fee and shoot. Then, at the end of the tournament you say, "well, there weren't 3 people in the class, so we aren't going to payout any money back." OMG....THAT would go over like a lead baloon, and is IMHO also unethical.

Check out the NFAA Constitution and By-Laws:
The money payout table takes care of this very, very well (page 40 of the NFAA CBL). I'm NOT proposing the 3-5-7 rule for PROFESSIONAL classes; but rather reinstituting it for the "Open" or the "Amateur" classes that do NOT shoot for money.

For open/amateurs, there is a flighting chart on page 93
For MONEY PAYOUT, there is a standard payout chart for use that is based upon the number of competitors in each of the MONEY classes. It gives the number of places to pay out based upon that participation level, and the % of the money available for that class to pay out to each place.
That is on page 40 and works very well for MONEY payout. 
http://nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/1401-2013611-Constitution & By-Laws 2013-2014.pdf
There is also a "Pro Points Distribution Table on page 41 for the distribution of 'Pro-points', how many are available based upon the amount of money in the purse, and what percent is paid to each person. However, right now, I don't see a mention of "Pro-Points" given for anything but ONE "class", so I"m assuming that the Pros are ranked OVERALL regardless of "Shooting style" and the points are paid for the event accordingly, I guess. I could be wrong, however since the application asks for a breakdown by shooting style for the esitmated payout for each of them.
Thus, "Pro Points" would apply to SS, Senior, MS, and "regular", but only if those finished the ranking


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## blueglide1

OK here is the first test of the younger SMPFS at this years Wis State outdoor.I ended up third behind the two new guys.But I kinda expected that.I was 25 points behind after Saturdays Field and Animal round.But I was behind Mike Hendrikse who only missed four points on Sat,and now the Pros include the X counts as an extra point also.He had a 556 on Sat and a 559 on Sun. I had a 549 on Sat and a 546 on Sun .He also killed me on those darn animals,LOL But He is almost 55,so really the age isnt that much difference there.He is just a great solid shooter.Actually, it helped me concentrate a little harder,knowing I had alot to make up.And then the other new entrant,Jeff Button.He just turned 50,and he and I really ran neck and neck both days,but those darn animals killed me,LOL He shot the same both days and I was 3 points worse on Sun.So that was the diff,plus he had a few more Xs. So having a Silver Pro classs here wouldnt have helped me because I would have been the only one.If there were three or four guys in it then I would have made the jump,but untill there is a class Ill shoot the regulars and take my lumps.I had great sucess when I joined at 55 and its just somebody elses turn the way I see it.I can still push most but there are going to be some guys that just can run away from you with great,great scores.Just shows you how tough the Senior Pro class is now with guys like Mike and Jeff coming in.Im sure it will be that way in all the shoots.I cant wait for indoors now,its going to take 60x to win for sure,and alot of shoot offs,LOL So I guess the big question is do I endorse a Sliver Seniopr Pro class? Sure but the big question is will the manufacturers, and sponsors get behind it.If the regular Senior Pro class is the farthest they will get behind then Ill stay where Im at untill they no longer see me as an asset to their programs,and drop me for someone else.But if they are willing to go with me up the ladder then I would go.
Don Ward


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## Pete53

field 14, thank you for explaining the 3-5-7 rule that the pro`s use a different form ,so really there is no reason not to have the silver senior pro class ,its only about money taken in on each pro class. just maybe some of the 60 year olds will start shooting again ?


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> OK here is the first test of the younger SMPFS at this years Wis State outdoor.I ended up third behind the two new guys.But I kinda expected that.I was 25 points behind after Saturdays Field and Animal round.But I was behind Mike Hendrikse who only missed four points on Sat,and now the Pros include the X counts as an extra point also.He had a 556 on Sat and a 559 on Sun. I had a 549 on Sat and a 546 on Sun .He also killed me on those darn animals,LOL But He is almost 55,so really the age isnt that much difference there.He is just a great solid shooter.Actually, it helped me concentrate a little harder,knowing I had alot to make up.And then the other new entrant,Jeff Button.He just turned 50,and he and I really ran neck and neck both days,but those darn animals killed me,LOL He shot the same both days and I was 3 points worse on Sun.So that was the diff,plus he had a few more Xs. So having a Silver Pro classs here wouldnt have helped me because I would have been the only one.If there were three or four guys in it then I would have made the jump,but untill there is a class Ill shoot the regulars and take my lumps.I had great sucess when I joined at 55 and its just somebody elses turn the way I see it.I can still push most but there are going to be some guys that just can run away from you with great,great scores.Just shows you how tough the Senior Pro class is now with guys like Mike and Jeff coming in.Im sure it will be that way in all the shoots.I cant wait for indoors now,its going to take 60x to win for sure,and alot of shoot offs,LOL So I guess the big question is do I endorse a Sliver Seniopr Pro class? Sure but the big question is will the manufacturers, and sponsors get behind it.If the regular Senior Pro class is the farthest they will get behind then Ill stay where Im at untill they no longer see me as an asset to their programs,and drop me for someone else.But if they are willing to go with me up the ladder then I would go.
> Don Ward


I think that Mr. Duane Price also "hit the big FIVE-ZERO" too, but don't know if Duane is gonna take the jump to Seniors or not; I'm sure there are others, too.

It would be interesting to see how many 60+ are willing to take a "jump" to the SS Pro if it was offered. Of course that cannot be found out for sure until it is offered....and then given a chance of more than one or two years to "take hold" before deciding to eliminate it. Problem is that you never know until you try it! Just to up and say the "numbers wont' support it" or something like that doesn't seem adequate, or "watering the division down" either. 

I only shot "Pro" for a few years in my much younger days, and it is indeed a different world. I don't have the prowess or the drive to even attempt it anymore, however; it would be like me signing a check and handing you guys the money as a donation. In fact, my scores are lower than whale dung, haha, but at least I can still hit the bale most of the time. As much as I would like to shoot well again, the struggles of the past 13 years have been tough to take, and until you've walked a mile in my shoes (and others that have had physical problems), you just don't have a clue as to the rhyme or reason behind things. Nonetheless, I get bad-mouthed by some people that flat don't know me or understand.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> The "Unit Rule" has been around for a long time. Some states use it (VA does) and some do not. For 1, 2, or 3 shooters, there is 1st place award. For 4, 5, or 6 shooters, 1st and 2nd place awards. For 7 shooters or more, three places are awarded.
> 
> I just cannot believe what they did at the Feb 2013 directors meeting regarding additional styles, divisions, etc. It is like they were living a "small pond wet dream". Serves me right for going on a 50th wedding celebration cruise instead of the directors meeting. I doubt if a 50th wedding celebration directors meeting would have been tolerated, likely would not make it to 51 years.



you are right . I think Ginny would have had you head. 
How ever, "we've come a long way Baby" from BB,FS, & heavy tackle. Do you remember. Hmmm ,sounds like a song


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## field14

brtesite said:


> you are right . I think Ginny would have had you head.
> How ever, "we've come a long way Baby" from BB,FS, & heavy tackle. Do you remember. Hmmm ,sounds like a song


Ah, but yes...heavy tackle! I competed in all three of those classes in my younger days and before the iterations and breakdowns became like the WWF, ha.
Score is score regardless of what the archer's equipment is...but...getting THAT changed is never going to happen. However, some of the classes out there could easily be combined....Bowhunter Freestyle Limited and Freestyle Limited could be combined, for example...but of course, just my opinion on that one.
A good research through 5 or 6 years of the Nationals, Vegas, and the NFAA Outdoor Nationals should be conducted to check out just how many participants are shooting in each and every "style" or "class"...and those with perpetual low participation levels should be eliminated. My thoughts are 5 or less = elimination. 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## blueglide1

field14 said:


> I think that Mr. Duane Price also "hit the big FIVE-ZERO" too, but don't know if Duane is gonna take the jump to Seniors or not; I'm sure there are others, too.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how many 60+ are willing to take a "jump" to the SS Pro if it was offered. Of course that cannot be found out for sure until it is offered....and then given a chance of more than one or two years to "take hold" before deciding to eliminate it. Problem is that you never know until you try it! Just to up and say the "numbers wont' support it" or something like that doesn't seem adequate, or "watering the division down" either.
> 
> I only shot "Pro" for a few years in my much younger days, and it is indeed a different world. I don't have the prowess or the drive to even attempt it anymore, however; it would be like me signing a check and handing you guys the money as a donation. In fact, my scores are lower than whale dung, haha, but at least I can still hit the bale most of the time. As much as I would like to shoot well again, the struggles of the past 13 years have been tough to take, and until you've walked a mile in my shoes (and others that have had physical problems), you just don't have a clue as to the rhyme or reason behind things. Nonetheless, I get bad-mouthed by some people that flat don't know me or understand.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom you are correct that Duane Price is now 50,but he is shooting Senior Pro ASA shoots most of the time now and really doesnt shoot much field here. No money in it,like there potentially is down south.But Im sure that Vegas ,and Indoor Nats,Iowa P.Am will have some interesting line-ups for this coming year.Like I said its going to take a perfect score now to place or win.Tough, tough class Tom.


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## Pete53

really since they dropped the age to 50 years of age in the senior classes in the NFAA maybe the NFAA should have went down to 45 -- 55 years of age and called that class semi-seniors and just left the senior classes alone ?? its a heck of an advantage to be 50 years of age in the senior class and an big disadvantage for people close to 60 years of age and older.i sure hope the floor`s soft when they put me under that rug ! Pete53


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## archer_nm

Pete lets not push it too far.


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## Pete53

i got a little carried away,sorry.anyway,back to the Silver Senior Pro Division i do hope more of the viewer`s post on this issue just maybe someone would have some more great ideals .if you viewer`s feel this is a valid issue please contact your NFAA Director`s i am sure they are all willing to help this issue.thank you,Pete53


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## kjwhfsd

Pete53 said:


> really since they dropped the age to 50 years of age in the senior classes in the NFAA maybe the NFAA should have went down to 45 -- 55 years of age and called that class semi-seniors and just left the senior classes alone ?? its a heck of an advantage to be 50 years of age in the senior class and an big disadvantage for people close to 60 years of age and older.i sure hope the floor`s soft when they put me under that rug ! Pete53


It went to 50 to be online with the rest of the archery world.


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## kjwhfsd

Pete53 said:


> i got a little carried away,sorry.anyway,back to the Silver Senior Pro Division i do hope more of the viewer`s post on this issue just maybe someone would have some more great ideals .if you viewer`s feel this is a valid issue please contact your NFAA Director`s i am sure they are all willing to help this issue.thank you,Pete53


Then we need a young pro division for the under 21 pros. It's not fair for them to compete with the 30 year old's. they have so much more experience.


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## FV Chuck

.....lol

Now where did I put that 10 foot pole?

hmmmm


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## Pete53

no we you do not need a younger pro division for the under 21 year olds my son when he was 17 and shooting alot did just fine with older shooter`s in tournaments. his problem along with all normal young man is booze and women ! at that age i was the same way and don`t tell me that ain`t normal !


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## blueglide1

OK here is an observance from looking at the Outdoor National numbers.Its quite interesting.36 SSMFS,18 SMFS. Double the regular senior participants. The women were even at 9 each. Senior Pros that attended 12.So now if there were a SS Pro class that would roughly break down to 8 SS Pros and 4 S Pros. Niether one would be elegible for any contingency money because they need at least 10 in their class for contingency payouts.Im not sure how many S Pros are elegible to go to SS class but it would be detrimental to do it unless substantial numbers attend.


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> OK here is an observance from looking at the Outdoor National numbers.Its quite interesting.36 SSMFS,18 SMFS. Double the regular senior participants. The women were even at 9 each. Senior Pros that attended 12.So now if there were a SS Pro class that would roughly break down to 8 SS Pros and 4 S Pros. Niether one would be elegible for any contingency money because they need at least 10 in their class for contingency payouts.Im not sure how many S Pros are elegible to go to SS class but it would be detrimental to do it unless substantial numbers attend.


Point well taken, Don. But there is really bad news contained in those numbers as reflected from the first major even held under the new Senior Age Limits. The entire participatory group is AGING, and there are hardly enough "new" or younger people attending!! More competing at over 60 than at 50-60 tells you that the senior division is actually showing a majority at over age 60, and not so much at 50-59. You see the same thing in the amateur too.
That spells bad news for the future. Somehow it has to be turned around to bring the numbers up from ages 10 to 18!!!! NASP apparently isn't bringing in those numbers to bolster the future of the sport.

Sad, very sad indeed.

Since the pros don't have a SS, we also won't see that breakdown either and without any numbers to go on for PROS, any decision would have to be on those numbers in the amateurs and that could be really skewed and inaccurate.


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## blueglide1

Agreed Tom,the numbers for the Pro division in general was down I think. But with the World cup and other things going on the same time,took alot of them down to Columbia.3 women Pros? wow.and only 18 mens? Would be interesting to see how many reguar SSMFS would jump to Pro status given there was the class to go to in the Pro div.Its a trend that is dissapointing with the seniors growing and the reg mens dwindling down.Maybe we need to pay more attention to the seniors instead of taking things away from us? Just saying,LOL


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> Agreed Tom,the numbers for the Pro division in general was down I think. But with the World cup and other things going on the same time,took alot of them down to Columbia.3 women Pros? wow.and only 18 mens? Would be interesting to see how many reguar SSMFS would jump to Pro status given there was the class to go to in the Pro div.Its a trend that is dissapointing with the seniors growing and the reg mens dwindling down.Maybe we need to pay more attention to the seniors instead of taking things away from us? Just saying,LOL


Ya know, it has been YEARS and I do mean YEARS since I recall any sort of membership drive conducted by the NFAA! I think, in fact, the last one I recall was right after the releases aids were voted in as being legal sometime around 1971 or so!
I also recall that I haven't seen any membership drives by any local clubs I"ve belonged to since I was in Iowa as a member of the Waverly Archery Club, and we had two of those while I was a member from 1978 -1988. I think that sometime during that time frame the Iowa State Archery Asssocation also conducted a Membership Drive with awards given to the ISAA members that generated the most new members.

I think the NFAA is down as a result of a lack of promotion for FIELD shooting. There is a lot of promotion for Vegas, The Classic, and the Indoor Nationals, but anything else seems to have fallen off. There just doesn't seem to be that excitement and gusto that there was when I first started shooting back in the later 1960's. The focus has definitely shifted to more about money, winning, and tournaments only.
Wish I knew the answer, but I do think lack of promotion at all levels is a lot of the problem.
field14


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## FV Chuck

I just want to point out that using Darrington as a benchmark could easily lead to an improper summary.

Historically it is the worst attendance of any location...it's going to skew the curve.
It's beautiful and amazing, and full of awesomeness...but not many people go. It's a fact. and it's been that way for quite a while.

Additionally I agree with the World games pulling shooters away on the Pro side. Mens, Womens AND Seniors. Typically the shooters who were there can be found on the roster for the OD Nat's when there is no schedule conflict.

Further... the Senior Games scheduled right on top of us this year. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is keep it in perspective when discussing the overall picture in Darrington. There was a hecuva lot of things going on in the archery world that detracted from it this year.


Chuck


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## blueglide1

I realize that Chuck thats why I pointed it out.But being the first real tournament with the new rules in effect it was all I had to go by.But yea I know what your saying.I was trying to point out that SS Pro might not be a viable class.At least on the Pro side. It was a big hit on the amature side though.I think there might be a few older Pros that would go back to amature status with the new class if they new they just couldnt keep up with junior seniors.LOL
By the way ,are we going to be subjected to your mug on Nock Out every week? LOL


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## FV Chuck

blueglide1 said:


> I realize that Chuck thats why I pointed it out.But being the first real tournament with the new rules in effect it was all I had to go by.But yea I know what your saying.I was trying to point out that SS Pro might not be a viable class.At least on the Pro side. It was a big hit on the amature side though.I think there might be a few older Pros that would go back to amature status with the new class if they new they just couldnt keep up with junior seniors.LOL
> By the way ,are we going to be subjected to your mug on Nock Out every week? LOL


LOL... yep, hopefully 

Yeah ... I was really just trying to add support to what you had already wrote


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## blueglide1

I knew that I was just trying to enter the MUG line with a lead in,hahahaha
Good for you,geezer TV,just what we need,hahaha


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## kjwhfsd

field14 said:


> Point well taken, Don. But there is really bad news contained in those numbers as reflected from the first major even held under the new Senior Age Limits. The entire participatory group is AGING, and there are hardly enough "new" or younger people attending!! More competing at over 60 than at 50-60 tells you that the senior division is actually showing a majority at over age 60, and not so much at 50-59. You see the same thing in the amateur too.
> That spells bad news for the future. Somehow it has to be turned around to bring the numbers up from ages 10 to 18!!!! NASP apparently isn't bringing in those numbers to bolster the future of the sport.
> 
> Sad, very sad indeed.
> 
> Since the pros don't have a SS, we also won't see that breakdown either and without any numbers to go on for PROS, any decision would have to be on those numbers in the amateurs and that could be really skewed and inaccurate.


Then the rest of the country bring the youth to the shoots. One local club had 14 cub to young adult shooters there.


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## Pete53

the NFAA needs to change and not make it mandatory on membership too ? promote a membership drive ? here in minnesota maybe loosen up the percentage of state members who need to be a NFAA member like 20%." the NFAA did loose over 500 MSAA members who were also NFAA members untill their ruling change a few years back" plus some other states as well had their memberships removed .also now with what don showed that there was more older seniors shooting,that shows me there is a problem, something has got to change in the NFAA numbers don`t lie ! ? what and how and soon ? i want the NFAA to be bigger and stronger but we must change these ways .


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## Ditch Pickle

what the nfaa and the rest of the archery clubs need is very simple. every one of them need a good and i mean good motivated promo adviser.......................................then you and i will see archery grow.........


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## Ditch Pickle

every one kids men women and the old would try archery or shoot archery if thay new of archery. thats the problemo advertise..........


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## USNarcher

I apologize for not reading this complete thread but I will inject this thought and please take it with respect because I am in no way being disrespectful, just honest.

The only way to add a SS Pro division is to have full support from the manufacturers. Lets face it the pro division is there to sell bows and quite honestly there is not a lot of manufacturer support for a 60+ pro. Sure there is some contingency thrown out there for seniors but not nearly as much as the adult pro's now cut that way down for SS. Honestly it just doesn't make practical sense. I talked extensively to Allen and a few others at Darrington and I understand all the concerns and bitterness but I just don't see it happening without full manufacturer support.


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## blueglide1

USNarcher said:


> I apologize for not reading this complete thread but I will inject this thought and please take it with respect because I am in no way being disrespectful, just honest.
> 
> The only way to add a SS Pro division is to have full support from the manufacturers. Lets face it the pro division is there to sell bows and quite honestly there is not a lot of manufacturer support for a 60+ pro. Sure there is some contingency thrown out there for seniors but not nearly as much as the adult pro's now cut that way down for SS. Honestly it just doesn't make practical sense. I talked extensively to Allen and a few others at Darrington and I understand all the concerns and bitterness but I just don't see it happening without full manufacturer support.


Thats kind of the way I see it also. If the manufacturers are behind it than great,but I doubt that will happen.Then on the other hand alot of the Pros arent spnsored by factory contracts either.They just stay loyall to the brand they shoot regardless of a signed contract and stay in the division for the competition it has to offer. I would love to see it but Im not holding my breath.


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## Archery Power

In 1977 Clemson S. C. We had 162 Mens Pro Free Style Shooters, 14 Mens pro limited Free Style shooters, 13 mens pro bowhunter shooters, 3 mens pro bowhunter freestyle shooters, 
1 mens pro bearbow shooter, 25 womens pro freestyler shooters, 1 womens freestyle limited shooters for a total of 219 This was the first year we used the new target.


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## Archery Power

In 1989 Watkins Glen N. Y. We had total Pros that shot was 82. What happened?


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## Archery Power

1977 Clemson S. C. Total Archers 1028, 230 Pro, 11 pros did not shoot 219 pros shot.


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## Pete53

the numbers that archery power has showed us i wonder what the answer is ? here in Minesota the MSAA that i belong too had 962 registered state indoor shooter`s this year 2013 our state continues to grow in numbers at our MSAA state indoor, the MSAA is no longer affiliated with the NFAA either.here in Minnesota we do have another organization called the MAA they have poor numbers at that MAA state indoor and the MAA is affillated with the NFAA ,i also belong to this organization.the only reason i bring this up do we have a problem with to many organizations, is this part of the problem in archery ? i do also feel that the NFAA should really study every state in the union and work this out somehow.that`s how to increase membership and raise the amount of shooter`s at archery shoots of the future. bow manufactures also need to wake up and support all age shooter`s ,there is a piece of pie they are miss`n to make more money. retired people do buy archery bows and equipment, so manufactures aren`t looking at the big picture,only the fast quick easy buck.


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## field14

Archery Power said:


> In 1989 Watkins Glen N. Y. We had total Pros that shot was 82. What happened?


Well, by then, after many years, the "pecking order" had been established. I was at the 1989 Nationals at the Glen. If I recall correctly, Terry Ragsdale shot a 557 on one field round, and maybe a 559 on one of the hunter rounds that week? The weather that week was near perfect, albeit the week before it had rained, so some of the targets were mucky...as in the 35 fan on the West Virginia being a mess big time.
It just seems like the enthusiasm of the pros is way down from what it was, and also the enthusiasm of the "younger set" with regard to having to work so hard to shoot well has taken a hit, too.
It is so very much easier to go whallop some foam and only shoot one arrow at a time than it is to have to shoot 4 shots at each target and....well, you know where this is headed. 
Something about shooting foam is just so much more appealing than shoot holes into spots, I guess.... Make a terrible shot and have big left/right errors and you still get "points"; on a spot target...you don't necessarily get a lot of points with a huge miss.


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## blueglide1

Way more Pros in the ASA IBO circuits Im thinking.They dont have to belong to the NFAA to shoot those formats,and yes the wear down factor in field is alot greater than 28 foam shots.84 more arrows on field side.Payback per arrow is probably greater to not shoot field.Lot more hunting related sponsors with the hunting side of the industry throwing money out there.Target is such a small portion of the equation in archery in the US.Europe however is totally target.Wish it would rub off a little here. LOL But I fear that the money in foam shoots are the drawing factor away from target archery.I think the ones who do both just do it to keep the muscle memory going and its something to do in the winter months.


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> Way more Pros in the ASA IBO circuits Im thinking.They dont have to belong to the NFAA to shoot those formats,and yes the wear down factor in field is alot greater than 28 foam shots.84 more arrows on field side.Payback per arrow is probably greater to not shoot field.Lot more hunting related sponsors with the hunting side of the industry throwing money out there.Target is such a small portion of the equation in archery in the US.Europe however is totally target.Wish it would rub off a little here. LOL But I fear that the money in foam shoots are the drawing factor away from target archery.I think the ones who do both just do it to keep the muscle memory going and its something to do in the winter months.


Actually, Don,
I don't think there are "way more" Pros on the ASA/IBO cicuits than there are in the NFAA Pros. In fact, I've read a lot recently about the "low payouts" as opposed to how they used to be only a few scant years ago. Of course, I would assume that the "Semi-Pro" created by the ASA may have had some effect on this, too, but don't have the numbers to stand up to scrutiny, ha.
We know that the formats of the Face2Face at Nimes, and the other European Tour events are starting to draw more and more USA "Pros" over there to shoot those events. In addition, the FIELD events overseas are also starting to draw more USA Pros that are getting interested in competing. However, a couple of the FIELD events in Europe are by invitation only, so a Pro cannot just galavant over there and compete without earning some "whiskers" so to speak.
There is also an increasing amount of prestige, awards, and MONEY becoming involved in the World Tour events...and "real" world records being garnered, which is yet another prestige thing. Erika Anschutz Jones is reeling in the wins and/or podium finishes as are Reo Wilde, Braden Gillenthein, and Rodger Willett. Jesse B also has started looking into those events, too.

IMHO...the USA is quickly losing ground to those overseas venues because of perhaps better promotion, more prestige, tough competition, and just the way the tournaments are run???

Don't have any answers, but it sure would be nice to see the "perking up" or "waking up" of the USA with regard to pro archery.


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## blueglide1

Tom, you have the guys that dual shoot formats,paper and foam.Plus those guys that only shoot foam.Combined they make up a large number that actually show up for their tournamanets.Target tournaments have too many conflicting shoots at the same time.Where ASA and IBO manage to " get it " and spread them out as to not run into each other.We target archers never get to go to half of the shoots because they guys who run them never get together with each other for scheduling.Thus spreading the numbers out between them,and lower turn outs.I counted up my attended shoot this past year,starting with Presleys.I have shot 40 tournaments since Dec. With two more to go till hunting season.Thats counting the locals, and state, and USA.It could have well been 50 or so if not for the conflicting shoots that I had to make a choice of going to one over another.I think it would help greatly to find the weekends that there are no shoots going on,"like this next weekend " LOL and spread them out a little.I have gotten a little off topic here,and put out there some of my frustrations with the scheduling of shoots but now I feel better,hahaha.


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## field14

blueglide1 said:


> Tom, you have the guys that dual shoot formats,paper and foam.Plus those guys that only shoot foam.Combined they make up a large number that actually show up for their tournamanets.Target tournaments have too many conflicting shoots at the same time.Where ASA and IBO manage to " get it " and spread them out as to not run into each other.We target archers never get to go to half of the shoots because they guys who run them never get together with each other for scheduling.Thus spreading the numbers out between them,and lower turn outs.I counted up my attended shoot this past year,starting with Presleys.I have shot 40 tournaments since Dec. With two more to go till hunting season.Thats counting the locals, and state, and USA.It could have well been 50 or so if not for the conflicting shoots that I had to make a choice of going to one over another.I think it would help greatly to find the weekends that there are no shoots going on,"like this next weekend " LOL and spread them out a little.I have gotten a little off topic here,and put out there some of my frustrations with the scheduling of shoots but now I feel better,hahaha.


You are correct, Don. However, this isn't anything new either. There are only so many weekends available (especially during the spring and summer), so the "schedules" are going to have conflicts. In addition, even for indoor events, no matter which date is selected for a tournament, there is something wrong with it for some "group" or individuals.
It is also uncanny how IBO and/or ASA events are scheduled in close proximity and on the same weekends as some of the bigger "target" tournaments, too.
Now what with more notoriety, prestige, and competitiveness of many World Tour events and events in Europe and now even Asia and Central America becoming more popular, this tightens up the picking and choosing for a lot of the top echelon Pro Archers. I think that what we are seeing is that the "Money Purse Total" isn't all there is for the Pro and Amateur archer anymore.
There is a lot to this "Trying for a new World Record" and its prestige and challenge that really is a motivator for those able to try for it.
Competing on a World Level is far more challenging and perhaps more meaningful that a "World Champion" from some of the other organizations...when it isn't on a real International Level of competition, know what I mean?

Scheduling tournaments and trying to coordinate with several groups or clubs just hasn't worked the best over the years I've been in competitive archery. This has been tried over and over and over again; works for a couple of seasons, and then off it goes on its own again with clubs/hosts scheduling against each other more often than not. I say again, no date is good for everyone, and there are only a certain and limited number of dates available. 
In the Winter time, if you look at Jan-March...just try to pick a date for a "good event" that doesn't conflict with the biggies; you'll see what I mean.


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## blueglide1

I know what you mean Tom, I was just venting because there wasnt anything to do next weekend,hahahaha. Guess Ill shoot some trap.LOL


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## Pete53

does anyone think maybe its time to change the format to save field archery ? i do like field archery but it appears we have a losing battle too . maybe the target size ? colors ? less arrows ? its just a suggestion , maybe you archery veterans have some ideals ? maybe at the field instead of paper animal targets use some 3-d targets ?


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## field14

Target size was changed in 1977. Yes, the 5-ring was made smaller by quite a bit for each of the 4 target sizes...however, the overall diameter of each of those targets, to still get a "3" was INCREASED, and instead of a small miss getting you a "3" like it did on the old face, you get a "4" instead. Yes, scores went down for quite some time, but of late they are pretty darned good. Funny thing, however is that scores are NOT up substantially even with the use of the electronics and dependency upon said items becoming so prevalent.

The mixture of 3-D animals and field faces is something that has been tried over and over and over again. It doesn't bring on the "bow hunters"; it doesn't bring on the 3-Ders either.
Fewer arrows? Nope...same thing...Shoot an International round of 60 arrows, 20-65 yards, 3 arrows per target....does NOT bring on the bow hunters; does NOT bring on the 3-ders. The International round is an official round of the NFAA.

The NFAA also has the Lake of the Woods Round as an Official round, too; colored targets. It does NOT bring out the bow hunters; it does NOT bring out the 3-Ders.

All that stuff is out there to utilize. What isn't being utilized, IMHO comes down to PROMOTION of FIELD archery by the National FIELD Archery Association, from the top down, there simply isn't any of the enthusiasm or advertising to support FIELD archery.

The "money" is made with the Vegas Shoot (WAF/NFAA), so that is promoted to the hilt. There is money to be made and the Indoor Nationals, so that is Promoted to the hilt. When it comes to the Sectional and NFAA Outdoor Nationals, however...there is really very little promotion for that...and in most areas there is almost zero promotion of FIELD archery period.
You can see it from the participation levels at the past several National Outdoor Field Tournaments. The SENIORS from age 50 on up are the largest age group out there, and we are not seeing much of an influx on the Cub, Youth, Young Adult, or even Adults.
Used to be you would see 150 or more PROS at the NFAA National Outdoor...now? Less than 100 and falling.

The shot in the arm that FIELD shooting needs isn't from changing the format; it isn't from reducing the number of arrows; it isn't from shortening up the distance; it isn't from "color" or adding 3-D's into a field round. It is IMHO simply a lack of emphasis by the members of the NFAA and right on up to the National FIELD Archery Association not really putting more emphasis on FIELD shooting.

ASA, IBO are advertised up the ying yang; stuff is plastered all over the place. 3-D events are advertised and promoted up the ying-yang and up front and personal. FIELD shooting, on the other hand is more like word of mouth and a hidden range here and there and hidden flyers here and there, but nothing up front and personal to get people's attention.

Now, we are also seeing a real push with World Tour, World Cup, and International competitions; face2face formats, and the European Field Tour, and other overseas competitions are gaining on PROMOTION and gaining on attendance, too.
The FITA format and the 70 meters competitions are gaining impetus at a very rapid rate. Outdoors, long distance, and lots of arrows, too.

Please do not take this as a bash of the NFAA; that is not the intent. I'm very passionate about field shooting and much prefer it to even indoor shooting; however, I call the kettle black, too, and the PROMOTION of the Field archery game is just not there and has been lacking for a long, long time!

field14 (tom D.)


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## blueglide1

I also think that a lot of participation "indoor vs outdoor" has to do with the fan base.Indoors the whole family can sit down and watch their contestant shoot the whole contest. Its a lot harder when outdoor venues are not exactly fan base friendly.That cant just trudge around and watch like they can indoors.Much easier to get from the rooms to the indoor arena, vs going outdoor with their kids or other family archer.


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## Pete53

NFAA does stand for National Field Archery Association so why not try and support the field shoots also. do some advertising ,maybe do more promotional things towards field archery.now the issue on not being able to watch the shooter`s there must some way of watching parts of the field shoots they do in golf ?? on this post there is now over 1,000 views someone must have some more comments or even ideals on how to fix these problems in field archery ? don and tom have been very helpful .


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## blueglide1

I think the golf gallery style would be cool.The only thing I think the NFAA would have a problem with is figuring out how to go about it the safest way to protect the gallery.But if you could get those kind of numbers that would justify the expense of putting up bleachers for observers,I know those golf gallery tickets are expensive I dont know if you would get the spectators to purchase them for this type of venue.Maybe if Tiger took up archery,LOL


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## huteson2us2

Being 66, I was also upset about NFAA's decision about the changes to the senior divsion. Being 50 might make you a senior in Fita and 3D, but it doen't make you a senior in ability. You can't live in my community unless you are 55 and over. You can't buy a senior hunting or fishing license untill you are over 70. Try getting a senior ticket to get into the movies at 50.

One of the archers that placed in the top three in Darrington in the adult FS class was over 50. My scores were competitive in the adult FS class untill I reached 60 then it immediately dropped 15 to 20 points almost over night. I believe that some very important directors in the NFAA must have just reached 50 and didn't want to wait untill 55 to become a senior like the rest of us had to. I say this because I had talked to three directors including a councelman and they assured me that the senior class would not change yet I heard that the vote was 100% for the change. I would love to hear what was said to make everyone change their mind.

As far as a silver senior pro class. Why not. I can't compete with the 50 year olds and I give up on the NFAA and their 100s of classes. Don't forget about the master senior class. I'm sure they would like to be pros again without competing with us 60 to 69 year olds. I would love to say that I placed third at the Nationals and I just wouln't mention that there was only three in my class.


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## blueglide1

I just got done competing in the Minnesota Cup 50 meter shoot this past weekend.You shoot two qualifying scores of 36 arrows,then get seeded by total score.I ended up seeding 6th.I had to compete in the mens open,because there wasnt any Senior Class.I woud have been the only one.Well thats no fun beating yourself,LOL I had 10 to 40 years on my class. Danny Button being 16 was the youngest,so I had 43 years on that young stud.Well in the head to head I managed to get into the second round.That match in the second round I came up against the eventual

winner, Mark Franklin, I had 20 years on him.I got beat by 9 points in the wind.But that was the margin that I beat the first guy.I still had fun against the young guys and they had fun too.Thats what its all about to me.Of course the 2500.00 would have been nice,LOL I ended up with a big fat zero payday.I can see that the young definitly have the advantage,I think I proved that this past weekend.But did it keep me from shooting? No, I knew what I was getting into when I signed up.


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## carlosii

blueglide1 said:


> I just got done competing in the Minnesota Cup 50 meter shoot this past weekend.You shoot two qualifying scores of 36 arrows,then get seeded by total score.I ended up seeding 6th.I had to compete in the mens open,because there wasnt any Senior Class.I woud have been the only one.*Well thats no fun beating yourself,LOL* I had 10 to 40 years on my class. Danny Button being 16 was the youngest,so I had 43 years on that young stud.Well in the head to head I managed to get into the second round.That match in the second round I came up against the eventual
> 
> winner, Mark Franklin, I had 20 years on him.I got beat by 9 points in the wind.But that was the margin that I beat the first guy.I still had fun against the young guys and they had fun too.Thats what its all about to me.Of course the 2500.00 would have been nice,LOL I ended up with a big fat zero payday.I can see that the young definitly have the advantage,I think I proved that this past weekend.But did it keep me from shooting? No, I knew what I was getting into when I signed up.


when that happens i always say, "I beat 'em all, whether they showed up or not!"


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## blueglide1

carlosii said:


> when that happens i always say, "I beat 'em all, whether they showed up or not!"


HAHAHAHA good one!!!!


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## 2fingers

I would just worn about not getting enough people in the 50-60 class and losing out on contingency money. I don't know if anyone would put up contingency money for a silver senior class depending on participation.


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## deadx

Contingency money is going away for Senior Pro class anyway.


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## Pete53

contingency money ya that is to bad,but part of that problem is because of how the NFAA does its promotion and advertisement.to me with all the retirements now and coming up you would think somebody or group would be smart enough to grab that piece of pie ,its there for the taking ,i bet in archery sales that could be 100,000 retiree`s more or less new archer`s a year ? and they got money ! anyone want to go on the shark tank ?


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## field14

deadx said:


> Contingency money is going away for Senior Pro class anyway.



Don't understand this, but....if the SENIOR Pros should ever have a higher number of competitors there then the SENIOR payout should be higher, not lower than the others.
The SENIOR pro ranks should be growing as everyone ages...don't know what is coming "in" at the younger end of the Pro Division, however. Is the growth upward in age and the younger guys' numbers declining?

Those payouts should, IMHO, be based upon % participation in each Pro Class and not always the lion's share going to Men's Pro Freestyle just cuz it is Men's Pro Freestyle.
That might put a burr under the saddle of some of the younger guys, but the fact remains....How this works in the minds of the companies giving contingency money, I'll never figure out, however.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

...continually shaking my head at the total misunderstanding of an Org, and then the misrepresentation by two that takes place here.


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## Pete53

yes, some may not like what people have said on here and they may not like what i wrote .but here `s the deal there must be a problem within the NFAA,why would so many agree with most post`s on here and just look at the views 2,200, common its time for some changes in our organization to help all age shooter`s including the pro`s plus their pay outs for all ages. let`s stop tippy toe`n and headshake`n and do something positve to get these ideals addressed ! there are a couple of director`s that would like to help with changes too and that just might be a very good start. those director`s know who they are and i thank them,i also think its great people have brought up their ideal`s and i thank them too ! if anyone has any more positive ideal`s please post them i won`t headshake only thank you for your great advise.thanks again,Pete53


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## field14

As Nicholson says in "A Few Good Men" when told that Cruise wanted the truth. Nicholson says, "You can't HANDLE the truth." This same thing with regard to pro division isn't new...the only newness is the changing of the guard...same scenario, different people at the younger end of the spectrum; that is all. Those that were at the younger end of the spectrum back then are now at the older end of the spectrum and see things quite differently based upon their experiences good and bad.
Hopefully this set won't make the same mistakes that the last two have.... some old farts are trying to prevent those mistakes and trying to get those trying to make the changes from going down the same down-trodden and beaten path that didn't work years ago, and certainly won't work today. There isn't any misrepresenation - - that is only in the eyes and interpretations of those that haven't experienced the changes over the years and how history is repeating itself. This same ole debate was held back in the early 1970's with the "vote" on the release aids, repeated again only a few years later with the NFAA target change to the 5-4-3- scoring and has continued on and on, same points made and lost, same arguments, but with different younger people. No big deal. The unwillingness to listen, and to change is deeply ingrained and tough to accomplish either of them.
I tire of this chatter, the abuses, the innuendo, accusations, insults, directly or indirectly, etc by those in supposed positions of authority. Agree to disagree and get on with whatever it is "they" are going to do. The price to pay is only your own.
field14 (tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

Pete53 said:


> yes, some may not like what people have said on here and they may not like what i wrote .but here `s the deal there must be a problem within the NFAA,why would so many agree with most post`s on here and just look at the views 2,200, common its time for some changes in our organization to help all age shooter`s including the pro`s plus their pay outs for all ages. let`s stop tippy toe`n and headshake`n and do something positve to get these ideals addressed ! there are a couple of director`s that would like to help with changes too and that just might be a very good start. those director`s know who they are and i thank them,i also think its great people have brought up their ideal`s and i thank them too ! if anyone has any more positive ideal`s please post them i won`t headshake only thank you for your great advise.thanks again,Pete53


My headshake was not your idea.... 
It was how factually incorrect post #67 was.


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## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> I tire of this chatter,
> field14 (tom D.)


if only you were tired enough to stop fueling the fire


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## Pete53

post #67 is me Pete53,i am not incorrect ! but i will be nice about it and not be a nasty keyboard person. the NFAA does need to make some changes and i do hope its soon . YES, promotion is very important ! also field14 has been very positive and helpful he seems like a real honest helpful person ,i want to personally thank him too. please try to be helpful and considerate when we post.Pete53


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> if only you were tired enough to stop fueling the fire


You see it as fueling the fire; I see it as keeping this subject open for discussion and other opinions. Changes do need to be made and suggestions should be asked for - - not thru intimidation or innuendo when said opinions don't fit the "mold". Gotta be for thinking out of the box, because the "old stuff" hasn't worked, and isn't working now either.
To keep trying the same ole stuff in the same ole manner, and expecting different results doesn't hack it. Sometimes the groups have to get right out and try to help themselves instead of expecting everyone else to do the groundwork for them.


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## FV Chuck

Pete53 said:


> post #67 is me Pete53,i am not incorrect ! but i will be nice about it and not be a nasty keyboard person. the NFAA does need to make some changes and i do hope its soon . YES, promotion is very important ! also field14 has been very positive and helpful he seems like a real honest helpful person ,i want to personally thank him too. please try to be helpful and considerate when we post.Pete53


Not sure how you got the idea I was nasty in one sentence, but...whatever.

You need to understand that Im not anti to the idea, I just would prefer the disdain and energy coming forth regarding the fact that it hasnt happend yet be redirected into people learning the process of actually making it happen and grasping an understanding of the process and the hurdles that lie in front of you. No one is necessarily telling you no.

Start with this one simple premise. NFAA makes no changes....the membership does.


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## Pete53

THE MEMBERSHIP IS THE NFAA ! or SHOULD BE ! there has been some very nice post showing problems that needs changing soon or that`s how club`s die out. now for the nasty rude comments and we all know who makes them,i do hope the NFAA PRESIDENT MR.CULL HAS READ EVERTHING AND TAKES CARE OF THIS PROBLEM ! and sponsor please help also, most of us are tired of it . thank you,steve peterson


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## Rolo

Pete53 said:


> THE MEMBERSHIP IS THE NFAA ! or SHOULD BE ! there has been some very nice post showing problems that needs changing soon or that`s how club`s die out. now for the nasty rude comments and we all know who makes them,i do hope the NFAA PRESIDENT MR.CULL HAS READ EVERTHING AND TAKES CARE OF THIS PROBLEM ! and sponsor please help also, most of us are tired of it . thank you,steve peterson


I'm really confused...The NFAA President, whomever it is, cannot unilaterally "take care" of whatever 'problem' you think there is. Going by the thread title, that would be the lack of a Silver Senior Pro division. A 'problem' that you have, but I have yet to see it as a 'problem' that the NFAA has. If this thread is the exemplar, there doesn't seem to be a large groundswell for what you desire, and it may not be a problem at all. Personally, I think the creation of the Silver division may have been the 'problem' or at least a 'problem' itself. 

To further the confusion, the answer to the issue has been posted:



field14 said:


> Sometimes the groups have to get right out and try to help themselves instead of expecting everyone else to do the groundwork for them.





FV Chuck said:


> Start with this one simple premise. NFAA makes no changes....the membership does.


So, where is the 'group' that wants a SS Pro division? What is that group doing to help itself? Where is the desire of the membership, who will ultimately decide (or at least should) for this new division? But yet, rather than pursue it that way, it is apparently up to Bruce Cull to fix the problem, and he doesn't even have a vote.


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## Pete53

no its up to people in charge including mr,cull to fix problems for the betterment of the NFAA,but i see that when you sit back and want no change and just leave it as is that`s why the membership increase does not happen.that`s why field archery is dying.maybe its time for new blood or at least some that want to improve things small and large problems.i just want to help so do others but we can just quit too,there`s other archery organizations who would take our money too or maybe like what has happened here in Minnesota i was at all the meetings and the legal crap so i know what really happened.the MSAA is still having strong membership and always over 1000 indoor shooter`s at our state indoor shoots and we no longer belong to the nfaa but the MAA that belongs to the NFAA has less than 75 shooter`s at their state indoor,so whats the problem the NFAA !how many other states have that many state indoor shooters ? there are some other states that no longer belong to the nfaa too ,lets sad ! i just want to see it be one big happy organization and the youth of this country to have great archery.like i said some of us can just nicely quit !


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## Rolo

^^^You do understand that Bruce, or whomever the President of the NFAA, can't really do all that much without the consent of the Directors right? He can't even personally advance an agenda item to fix whatever problems there might be.

So again, where's the group that wants the SS Pro Division? What is that group doing to get the support from the Directors for that division? What are the problems that you see? What are you doing to fix them?

Could the NFAA run better? Arguably, it sure could. The best way for it to do this would be to gut the Constitution and make it bottom down...but the members don't want this to happen, and since the members control the organization, that's the way it is...


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## Ditch Pickle

I see chuck is still mr right and dont like it when some one has a open mind to the great spot of archery,This belittleing needs to stop you are not the chairmen correct? as a mader of fact i think my pants and just about every ones out here go on the same way as yours.Havent been on here for awile and thats why and good bye again this needs to stop and we all need to work together and the ones that just want to run there traps need to buckup and start doing some thing about it in the right chanels. good day bob christle:nixon:


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## carlosii

Ditch Pickle said:


> I see chuck is still mr right and dont like it when some one has a open mind to the great spot of archery,This belittleing needs to stop you are not the chairmen correct? as a mader of fact i think my pants and just about every ones out here go on the same way as yours.Havent been on here for awile and thats why and good bye again this needs to stop and we all need to work together and the ones that just want to run there traps need to buckup and start doing some thing about it in the right chanels. good day bob christle:nixon:


:thumbs_up


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## TNMAN

Ditch Pickle;1068231240[B said:


> ----again *1. this needs to stop* and *2. we all need to work together* and *3. the ones that just want to run there traps need to buckup and start doing some thing about it in the right chanels*----


^^^ Agree on these 3 main points.


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## brtesite

Pete53 said:


> no its up to people in charge including mr,cull to fix problems for the betterment of the NFAA,but i see that when you sit back and want no change and just leave it as is that`s why the membership increase does not happen.that`s why field archery is dying.maybe its time for new blood or at least some that want to improve things small and large problems.i just want to help so do others but we can just quit too,there`s other archery organizations who would take our money too or maybe like what has happened here in Minnesota i was at all the meetings and the legal crap so i know what really happened.the MSAA is still having strong membership and always over 1000 indoor shooter`s at our state indoor shoots and we no longer belong to the nfaa but the MAA that belongs to the NFAA has less than 75 shooter`s at their state indoor,so whats the problem the NFAA !how many other states have that many state indoor shooters ? there are some other states that no longer belong to the nfaa too ,lets sad ! i just want to see it be one big happy organization and the youth of this country to have great archery.like i said some of us can just nicely quit !


Pete, as I remember most of the problem was that Minn. did not want to require NFAA membership to shoot in the two required NFAA sanctioned state championships . it is no different than wanting to belong to a club ,but not wanting to pay dues. The MSAA uses the rules & games from the NFAA but won't support It. It really is a shame that the two can't get together just as a few other states have the same problem.


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## Pete53

the past is past you and i can not change that ,there were some promises made that day that did not happen ,i was there sitting with the attorney.that`s over. now what does need to happen is for the NFAA start trying to change some rules ,get the MSAA and these other states back in.there has to be a way to do this in a positive way?? these old rules need to change to help the future of archery period ! back to the lose of the MSAA that was sued by the newly formed MAA that got the nod by the NFAA to begin a new club when this happened,did any of you people ever hear the final verdict reached by the Minnesota state court ,all rulings went in the favor of the MSAA so who is wrong ?? so we have people donating time,giving money,helping our youth,and this list goes on. its dam shameful money and time gets wasted by archery politics !


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## field14

I don't belong to the MAA or the MSAA, but do belong to the NFAA.
Since what we are hearing and reading that the MSAA (non-NFAA affiliated) has 1,000+ participants at their State Indoor, and the MAA (NFAA Affiliated, correct?) only has 75, as an NFAA member, I'd sure want to have this investigated as to what the heck is going on in the MSAA (and other associations in other States) that make it work?
Obviously, something is amuck concerning the "affiliation" with the NFAA that isn't working.

I think the same type of situation was happening in the early to mid 1990's in PA, wasn't it? PA pulled out of the NFAA over a somewhat similar situation...???? I do know that lot of PA participants joined the NYFAB and competed in NYFAB State tournaments. I was a member of NYFAB from the late 1980's until 1994 and competed with a lot of PA archers. Also ventured into PA to shoot a lot of indoor and field tournaments. I don't know the participation levels of the PA "non-NFAA affiliated events" was, however, since I competed in State events in the NYFAB.

Burrs under saddles; lowered participation, fewer clubs, even fewer NFAA field courses, lowered membership, little new blood coming in...and not much is going on concerning membership drives, re-vamping the rules, directives, by-laws, way of thinking, or upgrading the system of the NFAA.
Something is amuck and needs fixing; thinking out of the old box is in order, and seeking input is really needed soon.
The thread is about the SS Senior Pro Division; but the problem runs deeper than that.
Offering input or insight or asking to think out of the box doesn't bring anything but grief, innuendo, insults to those that try, however. Said grief, etc comes only from a few people that talk change but always waffle it back to the "rules" and the "Way things are"...which both are in need of change...and change comes about by doing something.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Pete53

the silver senior pro division ,this post has over 3100 views.there has been alot of positive post and some great ideals.ya, and you always get some negative stuff too. but on the up side i think we tried to make a difference, it looks like this year the NFAA state directors just are so busy they could not help the older generation.well i guess there is always next year or the next year???thank you for all the positive comments,Pete53


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## Rolo

Pete53 said:


> the silver senior pro division ,this post has over 3100 views.there has been alot of positive post and some great ideals.ya, and you always get some negative stuff too. but on the up side i think we tried to make a difference, it looks like this year the NFAA state directors just are so busy they could not help the older generation.well i guess there is always next year or the next year???thank you for all the positive comments,Pete53


Here's the issue...if there is no desire amongst the membership of a State, the State Director probably shouldn't do anything that would create a new division. Not so much as the directors not wanting to help, but a lack of support, or a need to do anything from the members they represent. If there was a great groundswell for a SS Pro division among state members, I would expect the directors to get behind it. But, there does not seem to be this large group that wants this. (There may be a larger group that wants to completely get rid of the SS division all together.)

So, my suggestion: if there is a large group of SS division shooters that want a SS Pro division, those folks need to start lobbying their directors and state members to get it put on the agenda. Otherwise, it is a 'meaningless' thread on AT.


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## archer_nm

*Silver seniors*

It is not a lost cause yet, make sure you tell your Directors that if this comes from the floor at the Directors meeting you want them to vote for it. Something that has had this much press here has been seen by the powers to be and may very well come up. Pete Don't Give Up!!!!!!


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## Pete53

ok when i see mr. hakle this winter i will bring it up.getting a group of 60-69 year old shooter`s together to get this done ,and ya i am 60,when you reach this age its easier to just let it be for most older shooter`s .but i will try with the state director now.i do hope other`s in this class do ask their director for some support.thank you ,Pete53


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## aussiearcher

Rolo said:


> Here's the issue...if there is no desire amongst the membership of a State, the State Director probably shouldn't do anything that would create a new division. Not so much as the directors not wanting to help, but a lack of support, or a need to do anything from the members they represent. If there was a great groundswell for a SS Pro division among state members, I would expect the directors to get behind it. But, there does not seem to be this large group that wants this. (There may be a larger group that wants to completely get rid of the SS division all together.)
> 
> So, my suggestion: if there is a large group of SS division shooters that want a SS Pro division, those folks need to start lobbying their directors and state members to get it put on the agenda. Otherwise, it is a 'meaningless' thread on AT.


Precisely the way this should happen, possibly with one inclusion. As a NFAA Professional archer, I believe your first step would be to present your petition, with all of the supporting signatures to your State Pro. Representative. Your petition should contain your signature and those of your fellow Senior Professionals seeking the inclusion of this new division. 

While on the subject of procedure, I strong urge those of you in the Mid-West to get together elect a Sectional Pro Representative. This position provides a direct link to your Sectional Councilman and has been vacant for some time, overflowing with missed opportunities I suspect.

Cheers

Randall Wellings/Your NFAA Pro. Chairman.


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## Pete53

personally i have great faith in the director`s helping with the silver senior pro division.really just because a person pays a few bucks they call themselves a pro archer ? and you want those people to make this decision ? the director`s have been around awhile i think they would have a better solution .would a young pro have any ideal what happens to a person at 60 and older ? NO-WAY ! so should myself pay the pro fee and become the sectional pro represtative ? at least then the senior shooter`s in the pro class would have a future.


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## aussiearcher

Pete53 said:


> personally i have great faith in the director`s helping with the silver senior pro division.really just because a person pays a few bucks they call themselves a pro archer ? and you want those people to make this decision ? the director`s have been around awhile i think they would have a better solution .would a young pro have any ideal what happens to a person at 60 and older ? NO-WAY ! so should myself pay the pro fee and become the sectional pro represtative ? at least then the senior shooter`s in the pro class would have a future.


No argument from me...I am all for the Directors, directing the affairs of the Association and not for a moment was the suggestion otherwise. I suggested the Mid-west fill in the vacancy of the Sectional Pro rep in order to add representation. Representation on issues that are pertaining to the "NFAA Professional Archer"...there is a mountain of discussion on the forum about Pro issues...many topics being presented in good faith...only to be scuttled by NON profession archers.
My suggestion is to go to www.professionalarchers.com, register and present your case to your peers, other professional archers who do actually have a vested interest.
Cheers
Randall Wellings/NFAA Pro.Chairman


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## field14

aussiearcher said:


> No argument from me...I am all for the Directors, directing the affairs of the Association and not for a moment was the suggestion otherwise. I suggested the Mid-west fill in the vacancy of the Sectional Pro rep in order to add representation. Representation on issues that are pertaining to the "NFAA Professional Archer"...there is a mountain of discussion on the forum about Pro issues...many topics being presented in good faith...only to be scuttled by NON profession archers.
> My suggestion is to go to www.professionalarchers.com, register and present your case to your peers, other professional archers who do actually have a vested interest.
> Cheers
> Randall Wellings/NFAA Pro.Chairman


I thought that Jeff Button was the Great Lakes Sectional Pro Rep? I don't know who the Midwest Sectional Pro Rep is, however.

Could you be so kind as to post the names of the Pro Reps for each Section? I don't think anyone, including myself even knows who they are, let alone how to get ahold of them.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## aussiearcher

field14 said:


> I thought that Jeff Button was the Great Lakes Sectional Pro Rep? I don't know who the Midwest Sectional Pro Rep is, however.
> 
> Could you be so kind as to post the names of the Pro Reps for each Section? I don't think anyone, including myself even knows who they are, let alone how to get ahold of them.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


*YOUR NFAA PROFFESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES*
NORTHWEST - *Vacant* (Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming)
SOUTHWEST - Jonathon Pemberton (California, Hawaii, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico)
MID-WEST - *Vacant* (North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Minnesota and Missouri) 
GREAT LAKES - Jeff Button (Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio)
NEW ENGLAND - Chris Deston (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine and Europe)
MID-ATLANTIC - Kendall Woody (West Virginia, New Jersey, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania and New York)
SOUTHERN - *Vacant* (Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas and Mississippi)
SOUTHEAST - Diane Watson (Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee.)


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## field14

So, it isn't JUST the Midwest Section that is lacking a pro rep. Didn't know this.
Maybe some "Pros" will realize this and step forward now that it can be seen what is lacking?

Thanks for posting this information!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## aussiearcher

field14 said:


> So, it isn't JUST the Midwest Section that is lacking a pro rep. Didn't know this.
> Maybe some "Pros" will realize this and step forward now that it can be seen what is lacking?
> 
> Thanks for posting this information!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom...I was amazed as much as you...and this situation does need to be rectified.
I have an article in the next NFAA publication...identifying how we...as a group can make a difference, once we have our ducks and geese travelling in the same direction...
Here is a line from that article...I think it says it all.

*Once we have representation in all eight Sections and all 50 States, the NFAA Professional Archers will have a powerful lobby!* 

Certainly what I'm working towards.

Cheers
Randall Wellings/Pro Chairman


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## Wyattwithabow

Pete53 said:


> the silver senior pro division ,this post has over 3100 views.there has been alot of positive post and some great ideals.ya, and you always get some negative stuff too. but on the up side i think we tried to make a difference, it looks like this year the NFAA state directors just are so busy they could not help the older generation.well i guess there is always next year or the next year???thank you for all the positive comments,Pete53


Could not help the older generation? Help them what?


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## Wyattwithabow

Only reason I ask is are we trying to change for good of all or just trying to make it easier to medal for a group? Just askin please don't blast me. Just thinking when I read that, if we have the mentality we are going to change the rules every time it gets hard or stale then we might as well make an age class from 1-99 and metal the top 3 in each. I came into this convo a little late and might be barkin up the wrong tree.


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## brtesite

Wyattwithabow said:


> Only reason I ask is are we trying to change for good of all or just trying to make it easier to medal for a group? Just askin please don't blast me. Just thinking when I read that, if we have the mentality we are going to change the rules every time it gets hard or stale then we might as well make an age class from 1-99 and metal the top 3 in each. I came into this convo a little late and might be barkin up the wrong tree.[/QUOT
> 
> Need one for 80 year olds.. waaaaaaaaaaa


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## Pete53

been gone awhile, the silver senior pro division is a money class so there will not be any medals,they already have silver senior medal classes and so on .what we are trying to do is have a pro class for only money.if you really want a medal there are alot of amatuer classes for a medal just pick one with not to many people in them,and we have all seen it done before.


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