# Coaching levels



## Bignutarcher10 (Jul 28, 2021)

Honestly these days when someone on range spouts that they are a level _ usa archery coach, it only raises my skepticism on whatever they are about to say. 

All the good coaches and athlete mentors I know never bring up their usa archery level certification. Most of the time their own form and performance speaks for itself.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nick728 said:


> I've come to believe that a level 1 or 2 shouldn't be allowed to teach or instruct JOAD anything other than safety unless under the supervision of a leveled up that actually knows what they're doing.
> Without making this a rant or finger pointing I'm sure that there's an up and down side to the level system. However, I as much as I do apricate the time devoted to teaching children what I don't understand is if what's being taught or suggested is misleading or nothing more that an ego trip from underperforming, limited ability pretenders I strongly suggest more oversight is needed.
> Buying a level isn't the same as earning a level and the questions remain, are you a coach at level one or 2 & if you don't understand what the children problems are how the hell can you pretend to know how to correct them! Just my opinion from what I've been seeing.
> Nick


JOAD parent post?


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

There's alot of Level 4's who know barely anything, and alot of level 1's and 2's who know quite a bit. Don't judge a book by it's USAA Coach level, lol.


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## OldSticks (9 mo ago)

Bignutarcher10 said:


> Honestly these days when someone on range spouts that they are a level _ usa archery coach, it only raises my skepticism on whatever they are about to say.
> 
> All the good coaches and athlete mentors I know never bring up their usa archery level certification. Most of the time their own form and performance speaks for itself.


That's true of many professionals in my experience. I have an MBA and never mention it, don't even include it in my email signature. Whenever I see someone that mentions their "MBA" I just laugh and I know they paid for it online. I went to a private school and can attest 100% as long as your check clears you get the degree. Some of my friends never even completed undergrad and they're some of the smartest people I know.


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## SimonRL (Mar 26, 2017)

lower lv coaches being clueless isn't the big issue. archery is a niche sport and high lv of archery knowledge & coaching skill are rare first of all. certification processes do not provide any real lesson either. they only have surface level archery knowledge and leave any meaningful lesson on coaching at the mercy of course instructors who paid for the paper years before.


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## Flyinhawaiian (Nov 2, 2018)

Technically Level 1 and Level 2’s are designated by USA Archery as Instructors, not Coaches. The focus is on training a group of students. You don’t become a Coach until you have attained Level 3. At this level you are moving into training individual students.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

This post is a question about JOAD “Instructors” that claim to train children without having the skills or proper background or training to do so. Just wondering how that happens and if it should be happening at all.
N


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Sometimes if it wasn’t for those parents volunteering and paying for their own certification classes, there wouldn’t be a JOAD club for someone to bitch about. 

If you don’t like how the current coaches are coaching, stand up, volunteer, and become a coach yourself, if you feel you know more than the existing coaches.

To be honest if your JOAD club only has one or two coaches and 20 kids, there really ain’t much coaching happening anyway. As the coach, in that scenario, all you trying to do, is keep someone from accidentally shooting someone else.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Nick - 

Unfortunately, there's really no way to stop it, unless the guy running the JOAD program sees it and and takes it seriously enough to get rid of the guy. The problem there is that most JOAD programs around were we are are usually short on staff, much less qualified staff, so a (any) body is usually better than no body. 

Also remember, that a lot, probably the majority of JOAD kids are there just to fling arrows, so as long as safety is maintained their job is done . But I do understand your concern about the few that are serious and have talent.

Obviously, I know exactly what and who you're talking about 

Viper1 out.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

OldSticks said:


> That's true of many professionals in my experience. I have an MBA and never mention it, don't even include it in my email signature. Whenever I see someone that mentions their "MBA" I just laugh and I know they paid for it online. I went to a private school and can attest 100% as long as your check clears you get the degree. Some of my friends never even completed undergrad and they're some of the smartest people I know.


Just so you know - I never saw this anywhere until I worked for a US organization. You can directly correlate the inclusion of MBA in the signature (or worse) to employee most likely to brown-nose and least likely to be able to get something done with real people. Job-titles and qualifications wielded like swords! Now I will not get started on how even the best MBAs still teach 1980s attitudes…

But yes, most qualifications are not realistically linked to any kind of competence - focussed on knowledge not capability.

Stretch


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

My understanding of the levels are: 

1: Able to safely setup and run a range. Can run camps and beginner archery programs.

2: Able to run long term group classes (JOAD, AADP, Collegiate). The focus is on instruction, not development.

3: Able to provide focused individual instruction catered towards athlete development.

4-5: Able to feed Lee’s ego.

Really, when you look at levels 2 and 3, they’re pretty low bars. They’re not meant to really be an indication of skill. They’re more of an organizational tool.


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## mtbman (Jun 16, 2014)

erose said:


> Sometimes if it wasn’t for those parents volunteering and paying for their own certification classes, there wouldn’t be a JOAD club for someone to bitch about.
> 
> If you don’t like how the current coaches are coaching, stand up, volunteer, and become a coach yourself, if you feel you know more than the existing coaches.
> 
> ...


Well said !!!!! 
To add, sometimes level 2's are the people that made something out of nothing. They found a place to have a range, purchased target matts and equipment, completed safesport training, had a background check and paid for their certification out of their own pockets. To them I say, bravo. Level 2's are the ones that get the kids interested and engaged while teaching the basics. At least that is the intention of the certification. I'll take a level 2 or 3 over a youtube coach any day and there are plenty of those around.


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## mtbman (Jun 16, 2014)

mtbman said:


> Well said !!!!!
> To add, sometimes level 2's are the people that made something out of nothing. They found a place to have a range, purchased target matts and equipment, completed safesport training, had a background check and paid for their certification out of their own pockets. To them I say, bravo. Level 2's are the ones that get the kids interested and engaged while teaching the basics. At least that is the intention of the certification. I'll take a level 2 or 3 over a youtube coach any day and there are plenty of those around.


One thing to add - When I certify level 2's, I always stress that JOAD instructors need to be transparent about their abilities and experience. That way student/parent expectations stay in line with the limits of the instruction. I wish every program had a lv.3 or 4 experienced coach. However, given the time and cost of those certifications, that's just not the reality.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nick728 said:


> This post is a question about JOAD “Instructors” that claim to train children without having the skills or proper background or training to do so. Just wondering how that happens and if it should be happening at all.
> N


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and act as if you really don't know the answer to this. 

Volunteers who are hit with a ton of regulations and requirements just so they can work with other people's children, often while those same children's parents think they know more than the volunteer does or while they are actively critical of the volunteer is how this ends up happening.

For starters, most people won't ever even step into this thankless role because it's too much work just to be judged, disrespected and criticized by a bunch of adults who aren't willing to do the same job. The ones that do often don't last long. The ones that last a long time often don't have the resources or time to develop their coaching skills and certainly don't have the resources or time to devote to one student long enough to develop that archer. In some very rare cases, some idiot with mad skills will tolerate the parents and their ill-behaved children long enough to actually make a difference with the very few kids who are willing to actually put some work in. And in even fewer cases, that's enough for those rare coaches with mad skills to keep going year after year.

My asst. coach and I finally handed off our JOAD program to a group of parents and students we had trained up to the L2 instructor cert. He and I both had L4NTS certs and had produced one hell of a list of accomplished JOAD and Adult archers over the previous 8 years, including Jr. USAT and Jr. World team members, national champions, record holders and medalists. I had three students go on to train at the OTC from the two small town club JOAD programs I ran over the course of 15 years.

But after the third set of parents accused me of neglecting their precious and all sorts of things I was not responsible for, then demanded (literally demanded) that I give their child more time, attention and even in one case demanded (literally) that I kick other kids out of the club so their precious could get more time, I said enough is enough.

Some day I'll post the letter that one parent emailed out to all the other JOAD families about what an awful person and coach I was because I was giving my daughter all the attention and not hers. The other families and I probably laughed about that letter for a month because everyone knew my daughter almost never practiced archery since she was so busy with swimming, band, church and her academics. It was the most ridiculous letter you've ever seen. Her daughter had developed a terrible case of target panic with a previous coach (that charged a ton of money) and so she brought her to me to "fix her" (free of charge) and neither her or her daughter would ever admit she had target panic and refused to work on the problem because they wouldn't admit she had a problem. 

This is the kind of thing JOAD instructors and coaches are up against literally every day. I'm sure it's worse in big cities (that's where all my problems came from by the way) than it is in small towns like ours. It just isn't reasonable to expect someone to donate hundreds or thousands of hours of their time to help other people's children for no reward, and still take the criticism and abuse they get by exposing themselves to liability and the whims and opinions of modern day parents.

Anyone with half a brain will never get a certification beyond the L2 instructor cert. without having a serious personal fee schedule, liability insurance and then have their travel comp'd if they do travel to events to help kids trying to make Jr. USAT or international teams. It took me a dozen years and about 10,000 donated hours to figure that out. But I am quite dense so I'm sure others have picked up on that much quicker.

I chose not to renew my USArchery membership this year for the first time in quite a while. Why USArchery requires Olympians and World Championship team members to pay annual membership fees is to me one of the most idiotic examples of narrow-mindedness I can think of, but that's another topic for another thread. I didn't renew because USArchery will take, take, and take some more from every volunteer they can get, and if a volunteer complains, they will just wait for the next new archery parents to step up and volunteer. There is an endless supply of new parents every year who think their kid is going to be the next Brady or Mac. and who are hypnotized by those five rings, so it's not a problem for USArchery so long as they continue to be the governing body of archery for the USOC. 

Anyway, you asked.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Nick728 said:


> I've come to believe that a level 1 or 2 shouldn't be allowed to teach or instruct JOAD anything other than safety unless under the supervision of a leveled up that actually knows what they're doing.
> Without making this a rant or finger pointing I'm sure that there's an up and down side to the level system. However, I as much as I do apricate the time devoted to teaching children what I don't understand is if what's being taught or suggested is misleading or nothing more that an ego trip from underperforming, limited ability pretenders I strongly suggest more oversight is needed.
> Buying a level isn't the same as earning a level and the questions remain, are you a coach at level one or 2 & if you don't understand what the children problems are how the hell can you pretend to know how to correct them! Just my opinion from what I've been seeing.
> Nick


Putting aside that this post comes off as pretty butthurt, it also shows that you didn't even look at the definitions for the coaching levels. 

Level 2 (from USA Archery) is defined as being qualified to be an instructor for a long term group program, such as JOAD. It's literally the first sentence of the description. Now, you can say that the requirements should be tougher, or that a particular coach shouldn't hold the certification, but to say that L2 coaches aren't qualified to do exactly the thing the qualification is for is dumb. 

Level 1 Instructors shouldn't teach anything other than safety (and the basics to beginners) unless under the supervision of a Level 2 or higher coach. That is, in fact, the description of the certification. It's also why children can get L1 certifications. 

Frankly, from what I've seen, it's the "advanced" levels that are ego driven. I surmise that that is why World Archery doesn't have them. The qualifications for a high level coach aren't certifications: they're the success of the coach's students.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

mtbman said:


> Well said !!!!!
> To add, sometimes level 2's are the people that made something out of nothing. They found a place to have a range, purchased target matts and equipment, completed safesport training, had a background check and paid for their certification out of their own pockets. To them I say, bravo. Level 2's are the ones that get the kids interested and engaged while teaching the basics. At least that is the intention of the certification. I'll take a level 2 or 3 over a youtube coach any day and there are plenty of those around.


Thank you for adding this. My post above only talked about instruction. I didn't even get into finding shooting facilities, applying for grants to secure bales and equipment, building stands, laying out fields, arranging food and water and bathrooms and all the other things that are required to have a successful JOAD program.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Putting aside that this post comes off as pretty butthurt, it also shows that you didn't even look at the definitions for the coaching levels.
> 
> Level 2 (from USA Archery) is defined as being qualified to be an instructor for a long term group program, such as JOAD. It's literally the first sentence of the description. Now, you can say that the requirements should be tougher, or that a particular coach shouldn't hold the certification, but to say that L2 coaches aren't qualified to do exactly the thing the qualification is for is dumb.
> 
> ...


What? Merit-based certifications? What a crazy concept!!! LOL


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

erose said:


> Sometimes if it wasn’t for those parents volunteering and paying for their own certification classes, there wouldn’t be a JOAD club for someone to bitch about.
> 
> *If you don’t like how the current coaches are coaching, stand up, volunteer, and become a coach yourself, if you feel you know more than the existing coaches.*
> 
> ...


I coached/taught kids for 12 years before I went and got "Certified". Our new insurance carrier required at least 1 Certified Instructor or we had to stop GIVING (free) instruction to the kids of other club members.

I don't know the OP or the Instructors their kids have but.... there is no shortage of "experts" who think they know more than the instructors. I had a member loose his mind because I reduced the DW on his kid's bow. He DEMANDED that his son shoot 35# because that is the minimum DW to hunt here in PA. He even pulled the "My grandfather was a founding member of this club" card...as if that somehow made him an expert. He didn't want to hear anything about "working his way up to 35#". 

The bolded part above is the attitude I see every week and it's not just coaching/instructing it's every facet of Archery Club operations. From setting up 3D courses to managing club funds to the food offered at events. Everyone has a opinion but no one is willing to help.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> What? Merit-based certifications? What a crazy concept!!! LOL


L1 and L2 are for insurance purposes and getting hired by Parks and Rec departments, schools, or similar institutions. 
As a parent or archer trying to find a coach, anyone looking at certifications is approaching it the wrong way. 

What success have this coach's or program's students had? How recently?
What success has the coach had as a competitor? 
What is the turnover rate for the coach's or program's students?

And then there are the nebulous personality and communication style factors which are pretty important for long term success and enjoyment but are very difficult to quantify.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> I had a member loose his mind because I reduced the DW on his kid's bow. He DEMANDED that his son shoot 35# because that is the minimum DW to hunt here in PA. He even pulled the "My grandfather was a founding member of this club" card...as if that somehow made him an expert. He didn't want to hear anything about "working his way up to 35#".


I'm so sick of people thinking that hunting minimums equals starting draw weight.

It turns out that you (or your freaking child) don't automatically/inherently have the ability to provide enough physical force to consistently ethically kill an animal.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> L1 and L2 are for insurance purposes and getting hired by Parks and Rec departments, schools, or similar institutions.
> As a parent or archer trying to find a coach, anyone looking at certifications is approaching it the wrong way.
> 
> What success have this coach's or program's students had? How recently?
> ...


Not sure if you caught the sarcasm (merit-based certs are something I've been arguing in favor of for over 15 years now) or if your response was just for the benefit of the audience.

I agree that looking for certs is completely the wrong way to go about searching for a coach for a child or adult. But there is no way for people new to the sport to know this. And USArchery promotes certs and coaching because it's a money-maker for them, and plenty of people with egos to feed are happy to let USArchery take their money.

There are several world-class archery coaches who have never earned more than a L2 cert. and some of those have let their certs lapse since all the new CYA pay-for-training has been required.

The idea that it should cost someone money to volunteer to help USArchery recruit, train and retain archers is absolutely absurd. Especially considering the amount of money that the sponsors and USOC contribute to sending kids with half-a** work ethics on paid vacations overseas to "represent" the US in archery, not to mention the adults that travel with them.

Before we spend thousands of dollars sending another archer to an international event, they should be required to shoot a world class score in competition at least twice, within a two to three month window ahead of that event. Sending archers who can barely make the top 64 "for the experience" is an insult to all the volunteers who are working their backsides off to operate events that benefit USArchery by drawing in paying members.

And don't get me started about coaches who charge a ton of money for private lessons but can never seem to find the time to help run events where their kids are winning medals and titles that they then turn around and use to promote their business. There are plenty of archery coaches nationwide who subsidize their business on the backs of volunteers.

Stupid is as stupid does. It took me about a week to realize the whole Olympic game was an industry manipulated by a privileged few to keep from having to work for a living as long as possible. That's not just archery. It's most sports. The true "elites" in Olympic sport are the ones who voluntarily return back to the sport at least what they spent in other people's money while traveling the world playing a game. In archery, that's people like Pace and McKinney and Meyers and Dykman and a few others. But it's not that many.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Not sure if you caught the sarcasm (merit-based certs are something I've been arguing in favor of for over 15 years now) or if your response was just for the benefit of the audience.


For the benefit of the audience.

Frankly I think merit based certs are a good idea in theory that break down in practice. I've seen them tried in other sports. I think what it comes down to is: archery is not that difficult to teach to beginners (from never having shot to shooting local tournaments). Ideally when the quality of coaching starts to actually matter then the archer (or their family) should know the community well enough to be able to identify the highly skilled coaches based on the success of their archers.


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## mtbman (Jun 16, 2014)

FerrumVeritas said:


> L1 and L2 are for insurance purposes and getting hired by Parks and Rec departments, schools, or similar institutions.
> As a parent or archer trying to find a coach, anyone looking at certifications is approaching it the wrong way.


Hmm, gonna have to disagree there. To me, If a parent is looking for a JOAD for their young archer, then an L2 is appropriate provided that the "instructor" isn't relying solely on the L2 cert. Some experience is required. If the parent is looking for a "Coach" to train their archer to a high level, then a more experienced coach is appropriate where private lesson can be done, say I. Again, expectation vs. transparency. The truth is, I don't have time to give 1 on 1 lessons during a JOAD with 12 students. Most of my tournament archers see me separate from the JOAD class.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

mtbman said:


> Hmm, gonna have to disagree there. To me, If a parent is looking for a JOAD for their young archer, then an L2 is appropriate provided that the "instructor" isn't relying solely on the L2 cert. Some experience is required. If the parent is looking for a "Coach" to train their archer to a high level, then a more experienced coach is appropriate where private lesson can be done, say I. Again, expectation vs. transparency. The truth is, I don't have time to give 1 on 1 lessons during a JOAD with 12 students. Most of my tournament archers see me separate from the JOAD class.


I think every JOAD parent should be required to earn the equivalent of a L2 instructor cert, know how to select and purchase their own kid's equipment, assemble and fletch arrows, tune a bow and register for events before their kid is allowed to return for a 3rd year. Those not willing to do that or able to because of work obligations, should then have to pay another parent who can. 

The lack of parent's investment in the most basic things is what eventually wore me down. It took me years but I had to finally admit to myself that I was investing more in my archers than most of their parents were. That was a sobering admission.


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## mtbman (Jun 16, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> I think every JOAD parent should be required to earn the equivalent of a L2 instructor cert, know how to select and purchase their own kid's equipment, assemble and fletch arrows, tune a bow and register for events before their kid is allowed to return for a 3rd year. Those not willing to do that or able to because of work obligations, should then have to pay another parent who can.
> 
> The lack of parent's investment in the most basic things is what eventually wore me down. It took me years but I had to finally admit to myself that I was investing more in my archers than most of their parents were. That was a sobering admission.


Don't get me started on registration. Always a train wreck.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

mtbman said:


> Don't get me started on registration. Always a train wreck.


Sorry. Obviously this topic touched a nerve with me. LOL


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

From the perspective of a parent: My son became interested in archery through Scouting, with very minimal input from the "instructor". As a parent of an enthusiastic son, we found a local JOAD program that had a very large number of youth. For my son it was not only about the archery and instruction, but the friendships and the very positive encouragement of the instructors. I think the positive attitude and encouragement of the instructors was as important as the instruction. I'm grateful to have had such dedicated instructors, giving their time to help. Was the actual instruction top notch - I'm not qualified to say. Eventually, my son found a coach with whom he worked with very well. I think the OP was too overreaching and overreacting. YMMV

I was a High School teacher and college adjunct for 39 years. It is not always about the "instruction".


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> I think every JOAD parent should be required to earn the equivalent of a L2 instructor cert, know how to select and purchase their own kid's equipment, assemble and fletch arrows, tune a bow and register for events before their kid is allowed to return for a 3rd year. Those not willing to do that or able to because of work obligations, should then have to pay another parent who can.
> 
> The lack of parent's investment in the most basic things is what eventually wore me down. It took me years but I had to finally admit to myself that I was investing more in my archers than most of their parents were. That was a sobering admission.


I agree, John, if the intent is really to develop the archer into an athlete. But many kids are just there to play at it. In that sense the O in JOAD is just marketing, and a true program to develop Olympic athletes could have that kind of requirement for the parents. For most it would severely limit participation in the programs. No reason a coach could not require it on their own, though, if they expect that level of committment from the archers and their parents.

In general, I agree with most of the criticism of the "ticketing system" we have. But as someone said earlier, merit based systems are a nice idea but hard to put into practice. The system we have is really about participation, not performance.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

It's a loaded topic and the only relevant answers for volunteers are: 'Thank you very much for volunteering your time' , or, 'What can I do to help?' Other answers don't help solve problems. I've got some opinions about certifications, but instead of grinding an axe, help make it better, or create something better.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

Just so we understand where Nick is coming from. The JOAD groups we have in our area are sponsored by clubs or commercial ranges, so there's no need to make targets or get equipment. Insurance isn't that hard to get and safety is usually handled well. Most of the groups I'm familiar with are fairly relaxed about organizational standards or rules, and are there to let the kids safely have fun. 

The concern is well-meaning, but incompetent instruction. Again, not an issue for the arrow flingers, but for the kids with the desire (and hopefully talent) to take it to the next level. The problem is what I call textbook or parroting instruction. Some guy with limited shooting experience (and some of it from watching YouTube videos), not being able to read the cause and effects the shooter is experiencing. 

Viper1 out.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Viper1 said:


> The concern is well-meaning, but incompetent instruction. Again, not an issue for the arrow flingers, but for the kids with the desire (and hopefully talent) to take it to the next level.


Then it's incumbent on the archer or parent to find a coach that can do that. Complaining that a coach who is qualified for an "arrow flinging" program can't produce an elite athlete is just lazy.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i didnt teach NTS so i didnt have a need to go beyond level 2 which was required to have a JOAD. When i decided to withdraw from USA archery entirely, i gave my JOAD club to another since i knew letting my level 2 lapse would endanger the JOAD club existence.

Had i not been required to have the Level 2, i would not have had it at all. Worthless certification in my view. The background check is good, but the constant safesport certification stuff was a lot of hoops which i felt were unnecessary.

I have been a coach since 2010 and I was never an "instructor". Insulting really for USA archery to designate me not a coach, when i donated time, money, equipment, held a JOAD and for years was the only one setting up USA archery tournaments in the state.

Stopped my memberships 3 years ago and never looked back. I don't have to look for students, they come to me regularly. My track record and reputation as a coach is there for people to see. When i see someone raving about their certifications, i know right away its all they have. Easy to sit in a class for 30 minutes and get certified. Much harder to understand what an archer is doing and the most efficient way to solve the issue when you don't have the experience from shooting, solving form issues and competing.

I am not a level anything at this time. But i do happen to be a "Youtube coach" or internet coach, and i would say a fairly successful one in teaching.

To name a few, I wonder what level Rick McKinney, Darrell Pace, Butch Johnson, Dick Tone, Jay Barrs are? anyone???

YMMV

Chris


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

This is a tough topic. I command all who volunteered their time, especially the ones who have no kids in the program.
I teach 4h archery & we have a good crew of volunteers. Our parents are pretty practical about what expectations are.

When I got my level 1 in 2008, I was the only one in a class of 7 that shot.They were there so they could open the range at summer camps. Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts etc.
Their only expectation was the kids could have some fun & not get hurt.


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## mtbman (Jun 16, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> i didnt teach NTS so i didnt have a need to go beyond level 2 which was required to have a JOAD. When i decided to withdraw from USA archery entirely, i gave my JOAD club to another since i knew letting my level 2 lapse would endanger the JOAD club existence.
> 
> Had i not been required to have the Level 2, i would not have had it at all. Worthless certification in my view. The background check is good, but the constant safesport certification stuff was a lot of hoops which i felt were unnecessary.
> 
> ...


What org do your archers now participate in? Not a flame starter, just curious.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

What interesting comments! The problem is as in all things, no "learned" person is equal to another. It's like doctors, service repair people, etc. There are good ones and there are bad ones. Taking the time to get to know who the instructor. Deciding if it is a good fit is easy by asking questions from others. Also, trial by error. If it doesn't work move on to another. 

I have taken a different approach than what John has. I charge for my time. It isn't that I need the money, it is that I or any instructor or coach is worth it. My job is to help teach the kids how to shoot but also it is to search and recruit "volunteers". The money I get is usually put back into the program one way or another but it's not the parents or archers business of where the money goes. My recruited parents are usually the ones who have a vested interest in seeing their kid develop into a competitive archer or even an elite. Usually they pay the fees, learn about SafeSport, get background checked and take the L1 and L2 courses. Some of the kids who are dedicated to shooting volunteer to help me work with the new kids. I teach them how to get started with a new archer. They do simple tasks when I am busy with other kids, like keeping score and teaching the kids how to score or focusing on just one fix at a time. They keep an eye on the safety issues and help educate the newbies on etiquette, how to add, how to sign their score cards. I even warn the kids if the scorecard is wrong, they do not get a pin even if they did shoot the score. My job is to teach the kids on all aspects of the sport, not just to shoot a bow. These young volunteers apply and earn the L1 when they are of age. It is very easy for them because they have been taught what to do before they get there. I do this because I personally believe it gives these kids a better belief in themselves. They learn how to communicate so when I work them on a one-on-one basis they understand how important it is to communicate what they are thinking and/or feeling. Once they get the L1, they earn a shirt that has their name just after "COACH". This is an honor that they strive for and are eager to volunteer to help on Saturday mornings. I also have 3 parents who have earned their L1 and/or L2 as a volunteer. They do not have to pay a monthly fee and I give them pointers during classes when I get a chance. So in essence they pay as a volunteer so they can get free tips from me to get better. We are just getting ready to increase this to several parents wanting to get their level 1 as well as all of the other requirements to help the kids. 

I don't believe that USA Archery gets as much as people have been led to believe off these programs. They charge because money has to be spent on insurance, monitoring and even paying a full time person on the SafeSport program. Don't forget, SafeSport is being required by Congress so the cost of dealing with that increased substantially when our government stepped in. The insurance companies require specific steps to take in order to be compliant in case something does happen. We are fortunate that safety has been a key issue in archery and we have very few incidents, but still a bow and arrow is a weapon and can cause serious injury. The background check is due to SafeSport. 

I really don't care what USA Archery does at the elite level. Since I was a part of that as an athlete, as a board member with USA Archery, USOPC and World Archery and in charge of the USAT training camps in the past I fully understand the balance that is required to keep everyone happy which is very difficult if not impossible. The elites create a lot of revenue from sponsors, USOPC, etc. That's why the money is there but the balance is to spend some of the money on developing the JOAD, Collegiate and local level clubs. I am not saying that the elites earn all of the funds but they are a very big part of it. Unfortunately those who have not been involved with the internal workings of USOPC, WA and USA Archery can only speculate on what is real and what is imagined. Most perceive the worst, thus USA Archery, WA and the USOPC are the bad guys. They have their faults but they do work to improve the sport. Just not like some people would like them to. If you want to make changes, get involved. I did and made a lot of good changes (I think...). I wasn't liked then because I made hard decisions but I still made the effort, not just complained about it. 

As for parents who complain about my methods. I just give them a few other clubs that might be a better fit for them (and for me). I really don't care about how they feel. I care about the kids who make the effort to train or the kids who come for fun and enjoyment. The fun and enjoyment is monitored closely so we don't have clashes with the dedicated ones who are training their hearts out to get better. Most parents are so pleased they have even agreed to raise the fees for the program so we can spend more money on equipment needed to grow. 

Merit based certification. Not a big fan of this. I have watched smooth talking coaches talk kids into moving over to their program because the kid is good. Some coaches have based their accomplishments on one top archer and after that others follow although they were just getting to a point to blossom. The creed of some coaches is "if you shot good, then you listened. If you shot bad, you did not listen". I think merit can have its place but certification is necessary and what you do with it is entirely up to you. I am an old Level 4 coach. I have refused to switch over to the new coaching program because I see so many problems with it. They are slowly working their way back to original coaching techniques with added enhancements. Once they get to a point to where I am comfortable again I will be happy to go back to "school". I have been to several of Lee's seminars. Will this help my way into the national and international scene? Not interested. My main goal is to teach the kids to be self-sufficient and not dependent on anyone. If I have done my job the kids will be head strong enough not to be talked into cheap magic that will cause their downfall. My volunteer coaches are aware of this and have followed my lead. We strive to get the kids to think on their own. Even if they make mistakes it is more a lesson than a mistake. Sorry for the long post....


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

chrstphr said:


> To name a few, I wonder what level Rick McKinney, Darrell Pace, Butch Johnson, Dick Tone, Jay Barrs are? anyone???
> Chris


I think Darrell is Level 4, Dick is Level 5. I worked with Jay to get his Level 2 but not sure if he has moved up to higher levels or not. I know nothing about Butch but he is probably a high level as well. Not sure if these coaches have kept their certification but my argument is that once you have received the level the education doesn't go away unless you don't use it. Darrell, DIck, Jay and I think Butch still use their knowledge working with kids today. I don't think any of them jumped on board with the newer NTS version. But I can assure you they studied it to know if they could find something useful with it.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Never apologize for sharing your thoughts, Rick. Time spent reading them is well spent.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

mtbman said:


> What org do your archers now participate in? Not a flame starter, just curious.


World Archery, USA archery, NFAA etc. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> It's a loaded topic and the only relevant answers for volunteers are: 'Thank you very much for volunteering your time' , or, 'What can I do to help?' Other answers don't help solve problems. I've got some opinions about certifications, but instead of grinding an axe, help make it better, or create something better.


Why do some people classify sharing bad experiences as "grinding an axe?" I think it can be useful to do so and especially to people getting ready to make the same investments. They need to know what they are getting themselves into and how easy it can be to overcommit. 

I am not interested in giving USArchery any more of my time or energy these days, so I try to refrain from even commenting on threads like these anymore. You've probably noticed I don't post nearly as much as I used to when I felt it was still important to "give back" to the sport that has given me quite a lot in my lifetime. Sharing my experiences is for the benefit of those who are running JOAD programs or looking at pursuing higher certifications to take kids further in the sport. Call it a cautionary tale if you will. Or a "shame on me" if you prefer.

I spend so little time thinking about USArchery these days that I really don't even recognize the person I was 10 years ago when all of this seemed so damn important. LOL It's easy to get caught up in seeing these kids work hard and compete for things that are important to them and their parents at the time. What has helped me get some perspective is working with kids long enough to see them grow into adults that, for the most part, don't even shoot archery anymore and frankly JOAD was just one blip in their life among many blips. When I run into former JOAD students anymore, it's rare we even talk about archery.

I used to think I could change things and "create something better." People even told me I could. Not only do I know better now, I wish I had half that time back for more productive and enjoyable pursuits. If nothing else, I could have spent a lot less money and caught a lot more fish.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> What interesting comments! The problem is as in all things, no "learned" person is equal to another. It's like doctors, service repair people, etc. There are good ones and there are bad ones. Taking the time to get to know who the instructor. Deciding if it is a good fit is easy by asking questions from others. Also, trial by error. If it doesn't work move on to another.
> 
> I have taken a different approach than what John has. I charge for my time. It isn't that I need the money, it is that I or any instructor or coach is worth it. My job is to help teach the kids how to shoot but also it is to search and recruit "volunteers". The money I get is usually put back into the program one way or another but it's not the parents or archers business of where the money goes. My recruited parents are usually the ones who have a vested interest in seeing their kid develop into a competitive archer or even an elite. Usually they pay the fees, learn about SafeSport, get background checked and take the L1 and L2 courses. Some of the kids who are dedicated to shooting volunteer to help me work with the new kids. I teach them how to get started with a new archer. They do simple tasks when I am busy with other kids, like keeping score and teaching the kids how to score or focusing on just one fix at a time. They keep an eye on the safety issues and help educate the newbies on etiquette, how to add, how to sign their score cards. I even warn the kids if the scorecard is wrong, they do not get a pin even if they did shoot the score. My job is to teach the kids on all aspects of the sport, not just to shoot a bow. These young volunteers apply and earn the L1 when they are of age. It is very easy for them because they have been taught what to do before they get there. I do this because I personally believe it gives these kids a better belief in themselves. They learn how to communicate so when I work them on a one-on-one basis they understand how important it is to communicate what they are thinking and/or feeling. Once they get the L1, they earn a shirt that has their name just after "COACH". This is an honor that they strive for and are eager to volunteer to help on Saturday mornings. I also have 3 parents who have earned their L1 and/or L2 as a volunteer. They do not have to pay a monthly fee and I give them pointers during classes when I get a chance. So in essence they pay as a volunteer so they can get free tips from me to get better. We are just getting ready to increase this to several parents wanting to get their level 1 as well as all of the other requirements to help the kids.
> 
> ...


Good stuff Rick. Great perspective. You did stick with it long enough to make some positive changes.

I never charged for our JOAD classes because I never wanted to exclude the families who couldn't afford to pay a fee. I wouldn't have been one of the kids who could when I was young. If my mother had to pay a fee for me to join a JOAD club, it never would have happened. City league soccer was cheap and school sports were even cheaper so that's what we played. I had a lot of kids through my JOAD program that came from families barely getting by. The good news they were welcome in our club. The bad news is that those families were quickly limited on how far their kid could go because of the expense associated with travel and good archery equipment. So at the end of the day, the families who stuck with JOAD ended up being the ones who probably could have afforded to pay a fee in the first place, so that gets us back to your scenario. I just don't have it in me to charge people that I know can't afford it because I know what that's like.

I have no idea what the "right" answer is. Archery at the national and international level is a very expensive sport. Not compared to some, but definitely compared to school sports which is what most kids play for a reason. I'd be real curious to know what the average household income is for a family of a Jr. USAT archer compared to the national average. And archery is one of the more affordable Olympic sports!

Your points on merit-based certs are well stated. No perfect system for sure but I think we can all agree that there have been a ton of paper coaches with L4NTC certs walking around selling their services even though they couldn't find gold with both hands on a calm day.

BTW Rick, I do charge these days and I have individual students that I work with. Much less stressful than dealing with JOAD parents and I only take students that I know will put in the work when I'm not standing there watching them shoot. Probably should have done that all along but I really thought I could make a difference through JOAD and maybe I did. Only time will tell.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Just to be very clear, I’m not butt hurt, I have concerns for children trying to better themselves and not getting proper guidance. Before I posted this I did ask several retired JOAD instructors if my concerns were justified. I had no dog in this hunt, no personal steak in any decision or outcome.
I totally respect those that give their time and that’s not the issue. i have concerns that a gifted 14 year old was being steered into a different style because the L1 didn’t know anything about what what the child was learning and doing very well at. My exposure to JOAD is limited to locals and some close friends have been involved for decade. My first questions about this were directed to them. There should have been oversight and the L1 should have asked higher levels before suggesting what he did was their answer and their unanimous opinion.
Is it my business? Insofar as it involved a child trying to become good at the archery I love, it certainly is my business. It’s also my own responsibility to ask if my apprehension is justified.
I came to ask here knowing instructors, , coaches and teachers for all over would have a broader understanding of exactly what my concern was.
I certainly didn’t intend to start a controversial discussion, my question may not have been proper articulated and for that my apologies are offered.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Leave organizations or coaching certs out of the conversation and ask yourself how to improve any group which may have lost its way, or you want to see change for the better. We all get lost in the weeds and the central point is there is a group of kids who want to learn something. Ask yourself what you can do. Griping solves nothing. Roll up your sleeves. Support those whose sleeves are rolled up, or find another situation.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nick728 said:


> Just to be very clear, I’m not butt hurt, I have concerns for children trying to better themselves and not getting proper guidance. Before I posted this I did ask several retired JOAD instructors if my concerns were justified. I had no dog in this hunt, no personal steak in any decision or outcome.
> I totally respect those that give their time and that’s not the issue. i have concerns that a gifted 14 year old was being steered into a different style because the L1 didn’t know anything about what what the child was learning and doing very well at. My exposure to JOAD is limited to locals and some close friends have been involved for decade. My first questions about this were directed to them. There should have been oversight and the L1 should have asked higher levels before suggesting what he did was their answer and their unanimous opinion.
> Is it my business? Insofar as it involved a child trying to become good at the archery I love, it certainly is my business. It’s also my own responsibility to ask if my apprehension is justified.
> I came to ask here knowing instructors, , coaches and teachers for all over would have a broader understanding of exactly what my concern was.
> I certainly didn’t intend to start a controversial discussion, my question may not have been proper articulated and for that my apologies are offered.


good response. Sounds fair enough.

Whether a 14 year old is "gifted" or not should not matter. They all deserve good support and often times it's the less gifted ones that actually stick with archery long-term because it's a sport they can excel in while other sports require more natural athletic ability. None of my best long-term students would have been described as "gifted" by any coach that saw them early on. Their gift was their love of archery (which you can certainly help encourage) and their work ethic. Without those two things, it doesn't matter if the child is superman and wonder-woman's baby. 

Also, I would encourage you to be careful with how involved you get with other people's teenage kids. Unless you are close personal friends with the parents, it's best to keep your distance, be professional and limit your expectations. I had my heart broken by more than one teen and/or their parents after investing a ton in them over a years-long period. After the second time I promised myself to keep some distance. 

As I said before, in the moment, it's easy to get sucked in by a talented enthusiastic teen who shows promise in this sport. Just keep in mind that 10 years from now, there is about a 90-95% chance they won't even own a bow.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Nick728 said:


> Just to be very clear, I’m not butt hurt, I have concerns for children trying to better themselves and not getting proper guidance. Before I posted this I did ask several retired JOAD instructors if my concerns were justified. I had no dog in this hunt, no personal steak in any decision or outcome.
> I totally respect those that give their time and that’s not the issue. i have concerns that a gifted 14 year old was being steered into a different style because the L1 didn’t know anything about what what the child was learning and doing very well at. My exposure to JOAD is limited to locals and some close friends have been involved for decade. My first questions about this were directed to them. There should have been oversight and the L1 should have asked higher levels before suggesting what he did was their answer and their unanimous opinion.
> Is it my business? Insofar as it involved a child trying to become good at the archery I love, it certainly is my business. It’s also my own responsibility to ask if my apprehension is justified.
> I came to ask here knowing instructors, , coaches and teachers for all over would have a broader understanding of exactly what my concern was.
> I certainly didn’t intend to start a controversial discussion, my question may not have been proper articulated and for that my apologies are offered.


It would help us to know what specifically you think the L1/L2 Coach did that was so "wrong" to justify coming on AT for advice? Without that bit of information, when I read your posts in this thread, I can't help but picture one of my softball parents complaining to me between games that her daughter didn't get enough innings in the first game....

Your concerns could be completely warranted OR it could just be the coach sees your 14yr old without the "parent filter"....


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> good response. Sounds fair enough.
> 
> Whether a 14 year old is "gifted" or not should not matter. They all deserve good support and often times it's the less gifted ones that actually stick with archery long-term because it's a sport they can excel in while other sports require more natural athletic ability. None of my best long-term students would have been described as "gifted" by any coach that saw them early on. Their gift was their love of archery (which you can certainly help encourage) and their work ethic. Without those two things, it doesn't matter if the child is superman and wonder-woman's baby.
> 
> ...


I voiced my concerns directly with the L1
She was shooting Barebow very well and he wanted to transition her to Recurve. He doesn’t shoot Barebow, never shot Barebow and he decided the he wanted her to shoot Oly and spots. He has only shot compound and Oly, nether extremely well just barely well. 
i suggested that it wasn’t in her best interest to take away her natural instinctive ability to satisfy his own idea of what he thought was best and have her parents think that he was a coach and knew what the hell he was doing!
We argued, he finally agreed after being assured that I did ask instructors and coached if my take was proper and if I was correct in assuming he was dead wrong.
He told me what he did, I politely suggested he was wrong and it blew up from there. I didn’t need to be right, I had no dog in the hunt but my not saying anything would be totally against my nature. Not a knock on JOAD or the wonderful people that give their time, money and knowledge freely, it’s about right and wrong and the welfare of a child’s development.
Even this guy, nice guy, unselfish with his time and enthusiasm but what kind of world would we leave behind if we allowed mistakes or outright stupidly to go unchecked or unnoticed where children are involve! 
I’m a great grand father, I can overlook a lot of things that people do but a child’s well-being isn‘t one of them.
One level 2 buddy said when he taught JOAD they would past on a student to a different instructor that had skills in the style the child had inter in. Made more sense than “change to what I do or what I only know”. Hence my question, shouldn’t decisions like that have oversigh!
Nick


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

I guess I don't understand. If you did not like this coach, why didn't you just go look for another one that you would like? I am unsure how blowing up at him was some kind of solution. As far as I know, shooting OR has not been a life-threaten pursuit for a child. If he forced her to go BASE jumping in a wing suit without guardian permission, then I would be upset. But that is not the case.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not getting what they want and learning to deal with adults that don't have their best interest in mind is also part of a child's development. 

Again, if it's not your kid I would tread carefully. IMO you may already be outside of your area of responsibility. 

As for "steering" a kid away from barebow, it's incredibly common. There is a bias (whether conscious or not) against barebow with many instructors - mainly for the reason you mentioned - they don't understand it and don't think its' a "serious" discipline.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Not getting what they want and learning to deal with adults that don't have their best interest in mind is also part of a child's development.
> 
> Again, if it's not your kid I would tread carefully. IMO you may already be outside of your area of responsibility.
> 
> As for "steering" a kid away from barebow, it's incredibly common. There is a bias (whether conscious or not) against barebow with many instructors - mainly for the reason you mentioned - they don't understand it and don't think its' a "serious" discipline.


Thank you, your view and advice is well recieved.
N


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

BTW, the archery world is pretty small, especially locally. Your behavior can have repercussions for the child.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Hikari said:


> BTW, the archery world is pretty small, especially locally. Your behavior can have repercussions for the child.


I have no interaction with the child or the family


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Nick728 said:


> I have no interaction with the child or the family


And yet you thought you knew what was best for them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> And yet you thought you knew what was best for them.


It's not uncommon these days for a total stranger to know what's better for a kid than their own parents. I mean, have you seen parents lately? LOL


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

There are a lot of coaches who do not know one or two of the three disciplines. This is very disconcerting since they push the kids to the discipline the coach is an expert at. I have a Compound coach and I handle the barebow coaching along with one of my world record holders who is now shooting recurve. She has a talent for both disciplines and loves them equally. Most of the other coaches are recurve oriented. We have sessions so they can learn more about the different disciplines but I have prefaced that it is not their job to get a kid to the elite level. They are there to help them with their form and to enjoy shooting. Once the kid starts putting in the extra time then we make a plan for them. 

As for the economical challenge, I have kept an eye out for those who cannot afford much. I probably have more equipment out on loan right now than ever before. Fees can be waived. We make exceptions for those willing to put in the time. I have told all parents that I will put in as much as the kid. No more, no less. If the kid is there to have fun, I will do my best to have fun with them. If they are there to train and get to the next level I will be there for them and encourage them. What I have found out is that most kids are there to better themselves but mainly to enjoy others' company. The competitive drive comes later. 

As for individual coaching with a minor. I never have any minor alone. One of the parents has to be present while I am coaching them (or an older sibling). I push SafeSport on the parents to encourage them to see what to look for and to make sure we are in agreement that their child should never be alone with any adult other than family no matter what. I have had parents say they will sign anything so that I could spend alone time with their child and I tell them no. The law does not allow it and I think it is important that the parent is committed. What I say any kid should be heard by the parent.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

My club wanted me certified for whatever reason, only local coach could get me a level two, A third grader could get a level two!

Not sure what more is involved in the higher levels but I only claim my status with USA archery for the parents so they know I went through that safe sport BS.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

dtrkyman said:


> My club wanted me certified for whatever reason, only local coach could get me a level two, A third grader could get a level two!
> 
> Not sure what more is involved in the higher levels but I only claim my status with USA archery for the parents so they know I went through that safe sport BS.


Actually a Level 2 requires that you be 18.  (This is a point of consternation for some of the teenagers at my club)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

dtrkyman said:


> My club wanted me certified for whatever reason, only local coach could get me a level two, A third grader could get a level two!
> 
> Not sure what more is involved in the higher levels but I only claim my status with USA archery for the parents so they know I went through that safe sport BS.












The Level 3-NTS Coach Certification Course moves away from a group instruction and focuses on individual athlete development.

Students in the Level 3-NTS Coach Certification Course will be introduced to coaching philosophy, event preparation, mental skills, training cycles and plans, equipment tuning and receive advanced instruction on the National Training System (NTS) for Recurve and Compound.

*COURSE INFORMATION*
*Course Length: *20-24 hours (Dependent on class size)

*Course Cost: *Varies depending on Instructor

*Certification Period: *Three years from the date of course completion

*PREREQUISITES*

Minimum age is 19
Must hold a current Level 2 Instructor certification
OR pass the Level 3 Test-in Exam* AND Verify 3 years of documented archery instructor/coaching experience

*CERTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS*

Membership to USA Archery* or the National Field Archery Association (NFAA)
USA Archery Background Screening
U.S. Center for SafeSport Training
Must successfully complete the Mental Management 101 Course (Effective January 1, 2016)
Mental Management Course FAQ
*BENEFITS*

Qualified to instruct Level 1 Instructor Certification Courses.
Eligible to apply for Level 2 Instructor Trainer Certification.
Qualified to be the lead Instructor for an Explore Archery Program, JOAD Program, Adult Archery Program and/or Collegiate Archery Program Club**
Eligible for USA Archery insurance coverage.**
Access to exclusive video content in the USA Archery Membership Dashboard.
*Instructors or coaches may also test-in to the Level 3-NTS course if they are not a Level 2 USA Archery Instructor if in addition to the prerequisites, at least one of the following must be met: 


Competed in the Olympics, Paralympics or World Championships
Trained in the USA Archery Resident Athlete Program or
Current Level 3 or Level 4 Coach (Non-NTS)
**USA Archery membership required; NFAA membership will not satisfy the membership requirement.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

I actually think USA/World Archery taking the responsibility to have a coaching training program is good. At a bare minimum, it defines standards, whether someone ends up being a good coach/instructor or not. (Being a good teacher is a different issue.) For the most part this is an amateur sport and it needs people shooting and volunteers to support it. If you don't like a particular coach, you can simply look for another.

There is a different approach in which there is no governing body and it is just whatever anyone wants.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> I actually think USA/World Archery taking the responsibility to have a coaching training program is good. At a bare minimum, it defines standards, whether someone ends up being a good coach/instructor or not. (Being a good teacher is a different issue.) For the most part this is an amateur sport and it needs people shooting and volunteers to support it. If you don't like a particular coach, you can simply look for another.
> 
> There is a different approach in which there is no governing body and it is just whatever anyone wants.


This is both an amateur sport and a professional sport. The fact that there are very few professionals doesn't change that fact.

USArchery is essentially a marketing dept. for Hoyt/Easton and team facilitator for the USOC. Let's not get carried away here.

The old NAA was a true amateur sport organization. Unfortunately it's long gone now with only a few left who even remember those days.

I'm just sorry I came along too late to spend my best years in the NAA.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> This is both an amateur sport and a professional sport. The fact that there are very few professionals doesn't change that fact.
> 
> USArchery is essentially a marketing dept. for Hoyt/Easton and team coordinator for the USOC. Let's not get carried away here.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of that. Many organization need money. Those with money are looking for influence. Industries are looking for customers or they don't make products. The vast majority of archers are amateur. A few of them will become professional. I also imagine the professional archers are not seeking out L1 or L2 instructors. 

I am sure the system can be better. And there are those that believe they are doing that, whether anyone agrees with them or not.

I guess when you look at the system in its totality on purely a cost/benefit basis, does the benefits outweigh the cost? For you it might not. Form my POV as an amateur, it gives organization to the sport that allows me to enter and participate. And even from my POV, it is not perfect. Yet, there are more upsides than down. 

As far as whether it has just been a downward trajectory, I am not in a position to tell. The only thing I know is people like John Demmer has created a viable space for my interest, barebow archery. (I do enjoy OR and at least from the outside, there is a functioning profession circuit--looking forward to the gold finals in Korea.)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If you want a list of names of the people who created a space for Demmer's interest in the organization, there are a few still around who could tell you. Lots of battles were fought to create that stage. 

Ty Pelfry and Mark Applegate will always be my barebow heroes. Never heard of them? Yea, most folks who shoot barebow today haven't.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> If you want a list of names of the people who created a space for Demmer's interest in the organization, there are a few still around who could tell you. Lots of battles were fought to create that stage.
> 
> Ty Pelfry and Mark Applegate will always be my barebow heroes. Never heard of them? Yea, most folks who shoot barebow today haven't.


Very few things are built on one person's shoulders. I am new to the sport and still learning. (I very much enjoyed your interview on the Push podcast, BTW.)

That is one thing that has struck me about archery, it is pretty open in being able to see so many archers at so many stages of their careers. There are few disciplines that allow that. 

I have heard of Mark Applegate. He was in the men's team finals in the World Field Championships in Gothenburg in 2006:






_(Sometimes being an "internet archer" has its rewards...)_


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> Very few things are built on one person's shoulders. I am new to the sport and still learning. (I very much enjoyed your interview on the Push podcast, BTW.)
> 
> That is one thing that has struck me about archery, it is pretty open in being able to see so many archers at so many stages of their careers. There are few disciplines that allow that.
> 
> ...


Applegate was shooting barebow in NAA events when nobody else was. Shooting 90 meters barebow. How many people today can even say they've done that, much less alongside recurve archers at nationals? Damn few.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Nick728 said:


> I voiced my concerns directly with the L1
> She was shooting Barebow very well and he wanted to transition her to Recurve. He doesn’t shoot Barebow, never shot Barebow and he decided the he wanted her to shoot Oly and spots. He has only shot compound and Oly, nether extremely well just barely well.
> 
> The kid could've mentioned to the coach that she wanted to shoot in the Olympics... I had a shooter tell me during a lesson that his goal was to compete in the Olympics. (His mom was within earshot) I explained that there aren't compound bows in the Olympics. I also suggested that he switch to OR. (Hell, I even helped his parents sell the compound and found him a suitable recurve) I guess this makes me a horrible person and worse coach!!!!
> ...


My responses in RED.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> The kid was on the spectrum and was NOT interested in changing coaches. I ended up splitting fees with the other coach for 6 months so the kid could "get to know him" before he started taking lessons with him.


Brilliant! And thank you for that type of consideration. Teaching/coaching is challenging enough, but to understand how neurodiversity can add to that challenge is not that common.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Hikari said:


> Brilliant! And thank you for that type of consideration. Teaching/coaching is challenging enough, but to understand how neurodiversity can add to that challenge is not that common.


No thanks are necessary!!! He's a great kid!!! I'm not even remotely understanding how any of that neurodiversity works... I just new that the kid saw the number "10" on the floor and had to shoot in lane 10 EVERY time. When I tried to have an outdoor session with him his dad drew a "10" on the concrete pad with a piece of chalk.

Rather than put the kid in an awkward/uncomfortable position, I just "went with it"... This is also why the kid has never shot a tourney because we couldn't reserve lane 10...


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Whew, I sure am glad I'm totally devoid of any natural ability or athletic talent - threads like this, and I'm thinking I was one of the lucky ones... 

That said, I've been on the other side - the learning profession - most of my entire adult life, so I have more than ample time propped on that end of this particular stick.

My experience there has been that the best teachers are the ones that have shown me how to teach myself. Gasp! Why not full dictatorial control and "knowing whats best for me"? Well, it turns out that nobody knows what's best for me better than I do. Strange but true: if I do or don't want to do something, chances are greater that I'm right than someone else who wants me to do that something or not. And if I just don't know what I want, nobody else does either.

The only exception to this that I'm aware of is flight training. That's the only activity that I've engaged in where there is no survivable way to DIY. You must be instructed by another individual with some (appropriately high) bare minimum of qualification in how to fly, and instruct in, an aircraft. If you try to DIY flying, you either die, or you wish you had. So DIY is not optional in this particular activity.

Other than that, I think the best teachers are the ones who teach us how to DIY. They know where the error bars are, and they keep you away from them, but once you're inside those error bars, they simply show you how to make the world your oyster. And not their oyster.

This is a rare commodity in the learning business and I've only known a rare few. None in archery so far, but certainly in other endeavors that involved learning motor skills or sports, etc.

YMMV, but that's what I always look for when I look for instruction in something.

lee.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

lees said:


> My experience there has been that the best teachers are the ones that have shown me how to teach myself. Gasp! Why not full dictatorial control and "knowing whats best for me"?


+1

I have been in the ed-biz for a long time too. It is basically helping the student to solve problems and giving an environment to experiment and practice. For many things, there is not one approach, but rather there are efficient and inefficient solutions. Part of that equation is the person and the person's objectives. But it is also a layered cake. You need a starting point and then build from there. Now, there is a thing as good practice or rules, but most students will figure out those have limits or there are other solutions to the same thing. Even given the very similar form top archers use, there are slight variations and different approaches that lead to high performance, none better than another. There are also plenty of things you cannot seen that are unique to a person.

That flight thing is tricky. It can be done, but a failure might not be something you can recover from (nor the person you are sharing the vehicle with). Rock climbing is similar, but not as structured. It takes someone with the right discipline to prevent your learning curve to terminate. (It's not the fall that kills you, it is the sudden stop at the end.)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There is always a lot of talk about what's "best" for a kid. Lots of people think they know what that is or isn't. At the end of the day, nobody really knows. Not even the kid. They don't have a full grasp of all their options and are usually not very self-aware, so how are they supposed to judge what's "best" for them? Even the parents, who know the kid better than most adults, still don't know everything about the kid. There is a lot a kid won't tell their parents about their motivations (or lack thereof). In a lot of cases, the parents are trying to live vicariously through their kid or think the kid needs certain "accomplishments" on their college resume or to give them self-confidence when in fact, they don't. 

I really wish people would dispense with the idea of "what's best for" a kid. As coaches, we give them options. That's all. Don't oversell it. Don't overvalue our contribution. At the end of the day, it's about 99% up to the kid to take what we offer and run with it, or not. Not the coach or the parent or anyone else can get them to reach their potential in any activity. It's on them and them alone. 

Like Rick, I told my students for 15 years "I'll work as hard as you do." Sounded good and I meant it, but when I was finally honest with myself I was working far harder than all but a small handful of my students and parents. To keep an active JOAD program going, you have to work your butt off - especially in a small town with a small club. There is just too much that needs to be done and too few qualified people to help. 

Lee, I agree with you completely on teaching them to coach themselves. The idea is we should be working ourselves out of a job if we're doing it right.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Learners are self-correcting systems. They will figure out how to achieve a goal. Guidance is good because it shortens and simplifies the process, but it is the learner that needs to do the work. (And your passion and goal might not be their's (it is almost if they have a mind of their own, go figure...).)


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Hikari said:


> +1
> 
> I have been in the ed-biz for a long time too. It is basically helping the student to solve problems and giving an environment to experiment and practice. For many things, there is not one approach, but rather there are efficient and inefficient solutions. Part of that equation is the person and the person's objectives. But it is also a layered cake. You need a starting point and then build from there. Now, there is a thing as good practice or rules, but most students will figure out those have limits or there are other solutions to the same thing. Even given the very similar form top archers use, there are slight variations and different approaches that lead to high performance, none better than another. There are also plenty of things you cannot seen that are unique to a person.
> 
> That flight thing is tricky. It can be done, but a failure might not be something you can recover from (nor the person you are sharing the vehicle with). Rock climbing is similar, but not as structured. It takes someone with the right discipline to prevent your learning curve to terminate. (It's not the fall that kills you, it is the sudden stop at the end.)


Yes, having said what I said, I do know of one guy who completely DIY'ed himself how to fly and lived. He managed it in a single-place Quicksilver UL somehow; he didn't tell me what the ultimate repair bill was or how much repair time/effort was involved during the course of it. But at the time I spoke to him he'd been flying almost 20 years and estimated that he had more than 1000 hours in UL type aircraft. Held no certifications of any sort and had never gotten any dual at all from anyone in anything. Gobsmacked. But he was telling the truth.

That's the only survivor I actually know of that still had a functioning, financial future. All the rest of em are dead or wishing they were.

As for archery, the only instruction I ever got that I still use to this day was from Frank Thomas at TAMU. And that was on Olympic style. I was severely injured at the time, tho, as well as the aforementioned total vacuum of shooting talent and ability, so he very quickly lost interest. By the end of the semester, he no longer even knew who I was. Sadly for me, it was the right choice for him to make, to put his efforts elsewhere lol.

On compound, I'm completely DIY. And I guess it shows at the target... and when I draw my bow you'll see it too... 

Barebow is still a distant possibility, but I haven't made any decisions yet. Lately for other reasons I've hardly been shooting at all, so in whatever case I'll likely be starting over from scratch if it's not just going back to compound/release aid...
Barebow is the funnest group of shooters tho by far, tho all of em are great folks....

lee.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> No thanks are necessary!!! He's a great kid!!! I'm not even remotely understanding how any of that neurodiversity works... I just new that the kid saw the number "10" on the floor and had to shoot in lane 10 EVERY time. When I tried to have an outdoor session with him his dad drew a "10" on the concrete pad with a piece of chalk.
> 
> Rather than put the kid in an awkward/uncomfortable position, I just "went with it"... This is also why the kid has never shot a tourney because we couldn't reserve lane 10...


I think it is really good that you are meeting the kid where he is. 

I wonder for tournaments if you could take a cue from dad. I wonder if when hanging the target you could also write a 10 in the corner to indicate it is _his_ lane ten. Perhaps just start with him writing a ten on the target when he shoots. You could then take him to another range he has never been to, put him in a different lane, but have him mark his target with the ten. It might work--naturally, I would not force anything. He might not like tournaments anyway.

Autistic people can be so socially isolated, it is great to get ways where they can be part of something with others. And archery is the perfect sport for autism. (I see a lot of autistic traits in the archery community.)


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

lees said:


> Barebow is the funnest group of shooters tho by far, tho all of em are great folks....


I can't really argue with that...even the ones that don't shoot so well.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Hikari said:


> I can't really argue with that...even the ones that don't shoot so well.


I think it's because barebow is the Holy Grail of approachable archery for beginners. It's the easiest to pick up - just a stick with a string on it and the arrow only has to be long enough to not fall off the rest when you pull it back. No sights, no tuning no fiddling with releases and drawlengths, etc. Pull it back, kinda point it down there and let er go. What could be simpler?
Also, recurves are available in poundages that beginners can shoot too, unlike the compound where only the Mathews Genesis can really be shot by beginners. Everything else is at least 30lbs too heavy even for adults who've not shot a bow before. And they instantly explode in a dry fire, unlike the club 14lb recurve which can take that literally for years with no injuries or issues.

That's why I always gravitated over to the BB section of the line even when I was truly training on compound. That's where all the kids, soccer moms and dads experiencing the fun of shooting for the first time were. The other folks were all gritting their teeth and cussing their bad shots, etc.

Anyway, dunno. I have to just get back to shooting anything period at this point...

lee.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Ty Pelfry and Mark Applegate will always be my barebow heroes. Never heard of them? Yea, most folks who shoot barebow today haven't.


Applegate whetted my appetite for tournament barebow. I used his scores and those of Skip Trafford as gauges to show me how far I had to go in my pursuit of barebow competition.

I don't know if it's still available, but I recommend Ty Pelfry's DVD "Modern Traditional."


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> There is always a lot of talk about what's "best" for a kid. Lots of people think they know what that is or isn't. At the end of the day, nobody really knows. Not even the kid. They don't have a full grasp of all their options and are usually not very self-aware, so how are they supposed to judge what's "best" for them? Even the parents, who know the kid better than most adults, still don't know everything about the kid. There is a lot a kid won't tell their parents about their motivations (or lack thereof). In a lot of cases, the parents are trying to live vicariously through their kid or think the kid needs certain "accomplishments" on their college resume or to give them self-confidence when in fact, they don't.
> 
> I really wish people would dispense with the idea of "what's best for" a kid. As coaches, we give them options. That's all. Don't oversell it. Don't overvalue our contribution. At the end of the day, it's about 99% up to the kid to take what we offer and run with it, or not. Not the coach or the parent or anyone else can get them to reach their potential in any activity. It's on them and them alone.
> 
> ...


Ah, maybe that was my problem... I just kept coming back and coming back no matter how bad I sucked. I kept showing up until they couldn't stand it anymore . I was so obsessed with shooting I couldn't stop even when I knew I should - that was how I got my original shoulder injury in fact.

That's still my current situation. I just can't put the damn stick down; I just keep on with it trying every variation I can think of with my recurve to see if something will finally freaking work. I think I'm up to plan CXZZ by now. It just won't leave me the hell alone .

When I lived in NM I was on a first name basis with everybody who worked in the shop in ABQ and half of the folks who shot there. It was like I had moved in. I helped sweep the floors in the range and I even applied to work there as a tech. They got used to it I think....

That's why I'm pretty sure my current non-shooting status will be temporary. The recurve is still lying there in the press, so it's just a matter of time before it jumps back in my hand....

lee.


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## Hobby Shooter (May 4, 2012)

Lees, I agree with a lot that you wrote, however, I think you may have overlooked a couple of things. While I agree that the DIY method is, perhaps, one of the better methods, a potential drawback with that approach is that you don’t know what you don’t know. Sometimes a coach/teacher/guide – whatever you want to call them, can point you to options you weren’t even aware existed because of your total focus on DIY. That approach has tremendous benefits, and may even be the preferred way to learn, but it, like any other method, works well for some, but not for everyone. There are those who don’t have, or take, the time, or put in the effort to make DIY work. For those who lack that motivation or drive, there may be other methods that work more effectively. There are also those who want/need more guidance/coaching than others and asking them to rely on DIY when they may not be amenable to it, or ready for it, can be very limiting the them.

You mention that nobody else know what’s best for you better than you do. That may be to some point, but it may not be accurate in a lot of cases. There are many times/cases where one’s blind spots are a real handicap to knowing what’s “best” for oneself, without an openness to at least hearing about other options or ways of doing things, it can be easy to go merrily on one’s way and going blindly down a path that may be detrimental instead of beneficial. 

Coaching/teaching/guiding, doesn’t have to be dictatorial or directive, though there are times for those approaches, but it can often be very helpful just to ask some questions. I have found that asking questions like: “I wonder what would happen if?”, or “is there another way to get to where you want to go?”, “what have you tried, and has it helped?”. These types of questions get the “student” thinking about other possibilities that they can then explore.

As Hikari wrote, a positive approach is to give the “student” an open environment in which to safely experiment and practice in to see what works. He also pointed out that part of that is having a starting point (which is what you meant with the error bars, I think,) which helps the student with some basic guideposts. As he said, learners will probably figure most of it out on their own, but sometimes a coach/guide can shorten the learning curve.

Like both you and Hikari, I’ve been in the ed field for a long time and have found that perhaps, one of the more important things is to remain open and flexible. Doing that, allows me to learn along with my students as their approach may be, and often is, different than mine, but I can then learn from them as well. 

I like where I see you coming from, but I thought I’d point out a couple of things that I’ve dealt with as well. As an aside, the fellow who self-taught himself to fly, IMO, is certainly not a role model I would want anyone else to emulate. Having had my own ticket for a number of years, I’m very glad I had my IP with me while I was learning. There are times when being so DIY borders on foolishness and is fraught with danger that need not be experienced. I’m all for learning on my own, but I try not to be foolhardy about it, trying to teach oneself to fly, to me, borders on being reckless and foolhardy.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

A "qualified" coach will accelerate the learning process, to help the student reach their full potential. The lessons learned go way beyond just how to shoot the barebow. Reaching goal after goal, which the student may not have believed was possible. Busting thru a plateau, thru diligence, thru discipline, thru the scientific method. Causation. Analysis. Problem solving. Stick to it stubborness. Self confidence. All valuable lessons, that we coaches impart to the students, the one sometimes, that goes way beyond even the student's expecations.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Hobby Shooter said:


> Lees, I agree with a lot that you wrote, however, I think you may have overlooked a couple of things. While I agree that the DIY method is, perhaps, one of the better methods, a potential drawback with that approach is that you don’t know what you don’t know. Sometimes a coach/teacher/guide – whatever you want to call them, can point you to options you weren’t even aware existed because of your total focus on DIY. That approach has tremendous benefits, and may even be the preferred way to learn, but it, like any other method, works well for some, but not for everyone. There are those who don’t have, or take, the time, or put in the effort to make DIY work. For those who lack that motivation or drive, there may be other methods that work more effectively. There are also those who want/need more guidance/coaching than others and asking them to rely on DIY when they may not be amenable to it, or ready for it, can be very limiting the them.


Agree on all points. I notice variation in my own learning when it comes to different subjects or activities, etc. Some I take to like the proverbial duck-to-water and all I need is someone to show me where the water is. Others, I encounter the opposite extreme, where I have to be pedantically, ploddingly shown every step of the process and I have virtually no creativity that I can bring to it. What I do for living is a prime example of this (software engineering). I have no IQ for it and "thinking outside of the box" is worse than a root canal. How I made it through 30 years of it was just pure blood, sweat and tears. Obviously this is a memoir of my work experience running in my mind as I approach retirement, where one wonders if he wasted his entire life on a bad career choice. Be that as it may, it does highlight that the way I learn things has to be tailored to what I'm trying to learn.

Archery is somewhere in the middle of that. The only reason I can operate even the compound bow was I just couldn't put the damn thing down for 30 years. That didn't work on recurve at all, but on compound I did at least learn to execute a shot, and somehow taught myself to do it. I have nothing like the "natural talent" that you see in a shooter with a true championship potential. OTOH, I've put probably 20x more arrows through bows than most of the other guys around me with 20x the talent and physical fitness. That brought me up some, not a great deal, but a lot more than otherwise.


> You mention that nobody else know what’s best for you better than you do. That may be to some point, but it may not be accurate in a lot of cases. There are many times/cases where one’s blind spots are a real handicap to knowing what’s “best” for oneself, without an openness to at least hearing about other options or ways of doing things, it can be easy to go merrily on one’s way and going blindly down a path that may be detrimental instead of beneficial.


What I'm expressing there is it's often not clear what someone actually wants, and I see that glossed over in a lot of instruction/coaching, etc. in voluntary activities like archery. Does the kid really want to shoot Olympic style? Or do they really want to shoot barebow instead? But more importantly, how sincerely are (rhetorical) you looking for an honest answer from the kid about that?

"Helicopter parents", and the coaches who love them, , seem to go into a panic when their kid says they want to do something other than what the adults want them to do. I saw that a lot in the archery shops on the weekends when the kids and their moms/dads were there. In many cases it was just soooo clear that the kid was having a lousy time. Even I could guess he didn't want to shoot the club recurve. He was sullen, quiet, petulant, but watching the compounders do their thing... but the adults just assumed the kid was just throwing a tantrum or something. Nobody honestly seemed alert to the fact that the kid wasn't interested, displayed absolutely zero curiosity about what the kid might have wanted instead, and saw nothing wrong in forcing him to do it anyway.

That wasn't true in every case, but it was a hell of a lot more common than one would have thought. Archery is supposed to be fun, I wanted to tell them.

That's what I mean by you're your best judge of what's "best for you". That doesn't necessarily correspond to what's the best way to get what you *do* want - that's where instruction comes in of course - but I think at the end of the day we're the final arbiters of what we want. We just need to be shown where the water is if we do want it.


> Coaching/teaching/guiding, doesn’t have to be dictatorial or directive, though there are times for those approaches, but it can often be very helpful just to ask some questions. I have found that asking questions like: “I wonder what would happen if?”, or “is there another way to get to where you want to go?”, “what have you tried, and has it helped?”. These types of questions get the “student” thinking about other possibilities that they can then explore.
> 
> As Hikari wrote, a positive approach is to give the “student” an open environment in which to safely experiment and practice in to see what works. He also pointed out that part of that is having a starting point (which is what you meant with the error bars, I think,) which helps the student with some basic guideposts. As he said, learners will probably figure most of it out on their own, but sometimes a coach/guide can shorten the learning curve.
> 
> ...


I was truly gobsmacked that the guy survived like I said. I was an ultralighter for many years (still my favorite form of flying) and you'd be amazed at what comes down out of the sky in the ultralight world. But that was the first case of a truly fully self-taught pilot that actually could prove he never got any dual at all lol.

There's always the guy out there with 2500+ hours, 1000 of it multi, 200 hours of IFR in actual and been flying 30 years but never got anything past his student pilot certificate (my CFI's A&P was one), but I'd never met an actual survivor of completely learning on his own.... My jaw still goes to the floor thinking about it...

lee.


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## Flyinhawaiian (Nov 2, 2018)

My whole reason for beginning down the coaching certification path began because I had not one, but two different L4 coaches training me as an OR archer, that would give me limited information so that I would keep coming back for more private lessons. (It was like the dermatologist…you’re never really cured, there’s always that next appointment.) As a result, I chose to pursue my own study path of self improvement that has included shooting tournaments (practical knowledge), L4 Coach Certification (perceived knowledge, lol), L2 Certified Judge (book knowledge), and discussions with credible top archers (absorbed knowledge). I try never to forget being that archer who’s Coach wouldn’t help them learn to tune their recurve bow (thank you Simon Needham for helping me learn), and I train all of my archers to be as self-reliant as possible. If something happens on the line during a tournament they are on their own anyway, why would you not want them prepared to handle it? I shoot OR, barebow, and compound because I feel as a coach it is my job to know all three, but here’s the secret…I know my specialty and my archery limitations in other disciplines, and have no ego about any of it. You need to know when your student has outgrown your ability to coach them effectively and know who to refer them to for the next step forward in their archery journey. Most top level archers have been coached by multiple people along the way. Our main function as a coach is to prevent injury in our athletes while teaching them the fundamentals, followed by the nuances of the sport. Know when you are reaching your limits, and it is time to pass the torch to benefit the archer. Fake it till you make it doesn’t work in our sport. If, as a parent, you see this scenario unfolding and your archer has goals that are not being met, know when it’s time to change coaches. Stepping off my soapbox now.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> The old NAA was a true amateur sport organization. Unfortunately it's long gone now with only a few left who even remember those days.


I was at the Vegas shoot about 5 or 6 years ago and had to go to the USA archery booth to get an answer about the JOAD i was taking over ( from the shop going out of business). I was wearing a jacket with an NAA patch on the shoulder ( i am nostalgic and like the look of the logo) And it was still the NAA when i joined. The lady at the booth looked at my patch and said " Oh no, is that ANOTHER archery organization starting!! "

I felt a little embarrassed for her to have to explain it was the original name for the organization she was working for at the Vegas shoot. To be fair, there was a new archery org that had just started, but still. How do you work for USA archery as a spokesperson for the organization at shoots and have no idea what the history of the organization is?

That spoke volumes to me and i still remember her shock and the patch and her finding out NAA became USA archery.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> I was at the Vegas shoot about 5 or 6 years ago and had to go to the USA archery booth to get an answer about the JOAD i was taking over ( from the shop going out of business). I was wearing a jacket with an NAA patch on the shoulder ( i am nostalgic and like the look of the logo) And it was still the NAA when i joined. The lady at the booth looked at my patch and said " Oh no, is that ANOTHER archery organization starting!! "
> 
> I felt a little embarrassed for her to have to explain it was the original name for the organization she was working for at the Vegas shoot. To be fair, there was a new archery org that had just started, but still. How do you work for USA archery as a spokesperson for the organization at shoots and have no idea what the history of the organization is?
> 
> ...


USArchery has had a ton of turnover. Again, it's an industry. Now it's just another org. under the USOC and people wanting a career in the Olympic industry just bounce around from sport to sport. Easy come, easy go. A lot of the USArchery staff I worked with in the past 10 years weren't even archers. The whole thing is just odd if you ask me. My first trip to the OTC kinda made it all clear in my mind what I was looking at. A big machine operating on donations from people hypnotized by those five rings and a place for young people to escape reality for as long as possible.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Rylando said:


> There's alot of Level 4's who know barely anything, and alot of level 1's and 2's who know quite a bit. Don't judge a book by it's USAA Coach level, lol.


Here is the post of the thread. I am a Level 2 Instructor Trainer. I was coaching JOAD kids long before I got those certifications. I ran a competitive club long before I got those certifications.

Now, do I want to invest the money and get my L3........ Hmmmmm......


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> USArchery has had a ton of turnover. Again, it's an industry. Now it's just another org. under the USOC and people wanting a career in the Olympic industry just bounce around from sport to sport. Easy come, easy go. A lot of the USArchery staff I worked with in the past 10 years weren't even archers. The whole thing is just odd if you ask me. My first trip to the OTC kinda made it all clear in my mind what I was looking at. *A big machine operating on donations from people hypnotized by those five rings and a place for young people to escape reality for as long as possible.*


Very, very sad but very, very true.


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## mtbman (Jun 16, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Not getting what they want and learning to deal with adults that don't have their best interest in mind is also part of a child's development.
> 
> Again, if it's not your kid I would tread carefully. IMO you may already be outside of your area of responsibility.
> 
> As for "steering" a kid away from barebow, it's incredibly common. There is a bias (whether conscious or not) against barebow with many instructors - mainly for the reason you mentioned - they don't understand it and don't think its' a "serious" discipline.


I agree and I do see more coaches these days embracing barebow and students wanting to stick with it. 
it's quite a spectacle to see the younger divisions shoot off in barebow at JOAD Nationals.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

mtbman said:


> I agree and I do see more coaches these days embracing barebow and students wanting to stick with it.
> it's quite a spectacle to see the younger divisions shoot off in barebow at JOAD Nationals.


Indeed that's where the final drama came from that led me to hand over my JOAD program.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

Although this thread is about training at the JOAD level, I cannot help but wonder about archery training and coaching at the college level. I live next to a major university and have some minimal idea about the archery "club". There are roughly 100 members. It is entirely student run, without a faculty advocate and certainly without a paid or even volunteer coach. Student members help each other, sort of. I have observed that level of training and it pretty much stops at basic safety and absolute introductory skills.

It seems a shame that there are so many interested students but they are left to flounder. I would guess this happens nationally.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jim - 

That "issue" is being addressed, and may be corrected as soon as this summer, providing the kids want it corrected.

Guys - 

You do realize this thread has gone completely off track, from the OP's original question, right?

Viper1 out.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Viper1 said:


> Jim -
> 
> That "issue" is being addressed, and may be corrected as soon as this summer, providing the kids want it corrected.
> 
> ...


What question? OP was opining. There’s not a single question mark in the entire post.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

camperjim said:


> Although this thread is about training at the JOAD level, I cannot help but wonder about archery training and coaching at the college level. I live next to a major university and have some minimal idea about the archery "club". There are roughly 100 members. It is entirely student run, without a faculty advocate and certainly without a paid or even volunteer coach. Student members help each other, sort of. I have observed that level of training and it pretty much stops at basic safety and absolute introductory skills.
> 
> It seems a shame that there are so many interested students but they are left to flounder. I would guess this happens nationally.


A lot of valuable learning looks like floundering for a long time.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

camperjim said:


> Although this thread is about training at the JOAD level, I cannot help but wonder about archery training and coaching at the college level. I live next to a major university and have some minimal idea about the archery "club". There are roughly 100 members. It is entirely student run, without a faculty advocate and certainly without a paid or even volunteer coach. Student members help each other, sort of. I have observed that level of training and it pretty much stops at basic safety and absolute introductory skills.
> 
> It seems a shame that there are so many interested students but they are left to flounder. I would guess this happens nationally.


A number of universities have student run clubs but the ones I am familiar with have to have a non student coach- either from inside or outside the university. The one you speak of sounds like an insurance case waiting to happen. I agree that a lot of interested students are not getting the best experience too bad indeed.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

It does not take much experience to learn basic range rules. There are experienced student archers who monitor range safety. But they do very little in regard to coaching beyond the very basics.

I am not sure about the valuable learning. Students with no archery background sign up for the club and I suspect often give it up. Other students have had some experience, maybe even some previous coaching, but they are on their own with no input, no help, no coaching, little or no competition, no goals or direction. I call that floundering.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

camperjim said:


> It does not take much experience to learn basic range rules. There are experienced student archers who monitor range safety. But they do very little in regard to coaching beyond the very basics.
> 
> I am not sure about the valuable learning. Students with no archery background sign up for the club and I suspect often give it up. Other students have had some experience, maybe even some previous coaching, but they are on their own with no input, no help, no coaching, little or no competition, no goals or direction. I call that floundering.


If you want to see floundering, stop by a 4-H archery practice sometime. LOL

I'm just glad to know they still allow archery clubs in college. Wish my college had one when I was in school.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jim -

This is off topic, but it's being worked on, so PM me, if you want more details.

FV -

I've deleted responses to this thread about three times already, as I personally know the situation and really can't go into specifics. Suffice it to say the "question" was how do you/can you deal with a fellow shooter or "instructor" who repeatedly gives unsolicited and typically inappropriate advice to people who don't know any better. (I thought that's what the Internet was for.)

Viper out.


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## spruis (Jan 15, 2015)

Rick McKinney said:


> What interesting comments! The problem is as in all things, no "learned" person is equal to another. It's like doctors, service repair people, etc. There are good ones and there are bad ones. Taking the time to get to know who the instructor. Deciding if it is a good fit is easy by asking questions from others. Also, trial by error. If it doesn't work move on to another.
> 
> I have taken a different approach than what John has. I charge for my time. It isn't that I need the money, it is that I or any instructor or coach is worth it. My job is to help teach the kids how to shoot but also it is to search and recruit "volunteers". The money I get is usually put back into the program one way or another but it's not the parents or archers business of where the money goes. My recruited parents are usually the ones who have a vested interest in seeing their kid develop into a competitive archer or even an elite. Usually they pay the fees, learn about SafeSport, get background checked and take the L1 and L2 courses. Some of the kids who are dedicated to shooting volunteer to help me work with the new kids. I teach them how to get started with a new archer. They do simple tasks when I am busy with other kids, like keeping score and teaching the kids how to score or focusing on just one fix at a time. They keep an eye on the safety issues and help educate the newbies on etiquette, how to add, how to sign their score cards. I even warn the kids if the scorecard is wrong, they do not get a pin even if they did shoot the score. My job is to teach the kids on all aspects of the sport, not just to shoot a bow. These young volunteers apply and earn the L1 when they are of age. It is very easy for them because they have been taught what to do before they get there. I do this because I personally believe it gives these kids a better belief in themselves. They learn how to communicate so when I work them on a one-on-one basis they understand how important it is to communicate what they are thinking and/or feeling. Once they get the L1, they earn a shirt that has their name just after "COACH". This is an honor that they strive for and are eager to volunteer to help on Saturday mornings. I also have 3 parents who have earned their L1 and/or L2 as a volunteer. They do not have to pay a monthly fee and I give them pointers during classes when I get a chance. So in essence they pay as a volunteer so they can get free tips from me to get better. We are just getting ready to increase this to several parents wanting to get their level 1 as well as all of the other requirements to help the kids.
> 
> ...


I dropped my USA Archery membership and, along with it, my Level 4 certification because I got tired of having to pay (and jump through hoops) to volunteer to work for free. Despite having been a L4 coach for many years, I am now frozen out from helping with any of the local JOAD programs because I am not currently a L2 or better. So, they are serious about their policy of "Want to volunteer for us, you have to pay." I also did not jump upon the NTS bandwagon as I saw a system not open to criticism (well, I also found more than a little to criticize, but I was dissuaded from even asking questions).

I also am not a fan of merit based certification because there is no basis for it. We can't even settle on a performance based system for evaluating classroom teachers based upon their student's performances. The UK is making more than a few changes in their certification system. One begins a [email protected], for instance, and passes the course and then goes through a probationary period after which they are evaluated while they are coaching at the end before getting their final certificate. It is an interesting idea . . . but . . . it also puts greater barriers between volunteers and their roles in local programs.

I made the suggestion some time ago that it seems that we never ask people why they are taking certification courses. In my case, I had no desire to be a USA Archery team coach. I just wanted to learn the information. I actually became a coach because of the demand (and very low supply), but that was not my motivation when I took the courses. It seems to me we could make L1-L4 course informational. You do not learn to be a coach by being an archer, so at some point one needs to learn about coaching. (Much of coaching knowledge should never be shared with athletes, because thinking about such things can impair performance. Please somebody take the LAN2 concept out and drown it.) If it some point, L3 or L4 level a coach gets serious about coaching for USA Archery, there should be a graduate program available to teach them how USA Archery wants to coach people. Those programs could be by invitation only. We educate doctors in much this way. You need an undergraduate degree, but the topic of it is quite open; you just need to pass the course and get a diploma. Then your doctor training begins. Dentists are trained the same way, lawyers, etc.

Rick, I sincerely appreciate your level of engagement. I am in awe of your stamina. me, I am tired and getting more so, and am retreating to my scribblings.


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## Arrowbender (Nov 7, 2018)

Nick728 said:


> I voiced my concerns directly with the L1
> She was shooting Barebow very well and he wanted to transition her to Recurve. He doesn’t shoot Barebow, never shot Barebow and he decided the he wanted her to shoot Oly and spots. He has only shot compound and Oly, nether extremely well just barely well.
> i suggested that it wasn’t in her best interest to take away her natural instinctive ability to satisfy his own idea of what he thought was best and have her parents think that he was a coach and knew what the hell he was doing!
> We argued, he finally agreed after being assured that I did ask instructors and coached if my take was proper and if I was correct in assuming he was dead wrong.
> ...


You've apparently got some local thing going on where you and viper know the specifics to some specific situation or not or whatever, I can't help with that.

I can only say: does the coach help improve the scores of the pupil or not? 
If so, good, regardless of certification.
If not, any certification is pretty pointless anyway.

Just to play devil's advocate on the absurdity of certification in the abstract:
I've no nts certified coaches here, cause it's a national acknowledgement system, and I don't live in the US. This does not imply no one here (or there, or wherever else) knows how to put an arrow where it should be.


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## G.Lizard (3 mo ago)

Any certification is just to keep a measure of uniformity. I KNOW I am a better coach than many Level 3-4. I KNOW some folks without an official certification that can out shoot and out coach me. That makes me want to improve as a shooter (lead by example), a coach, and a person. Its about character and apptitude for instruction, not a NUMBER. I think it is the best USAA can do with the way the America works and I don't think it is too bad. Like government cannot solve social issues, it is up to the individual and communities. I will eventually go on to get another level IF I come to the conclusion it will benefit my archers or provide more opportunity for them. 

If anything USAA should make it more accessible for the RIGHT people.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Nick728 said:


> I've come to believe that a level 1 or 2 shouldn't be allowed to teach or instruct JOAD anything other than safety unless under the supervision of a leveled up that actually knows what they're doing.
> Without making this a rant or finger pointing I'm sure that there's an up and down side to the level system. However, I as much as I do apricate the time devoted to teaching children what I don't understand is if what's being taught or suggested is misleading or nothing more that an ego trip from underperforming, limited ability pretenders I strongly suggest more oversight is needed.
> Buying a level isn't the same as earning a level and the questions remain, are you a coach at level one or 2 & if you don't understand what the children problems are how the hell can you pretend to know how to correct them! Just my opinion from what I've been seeing.
> Nick


How long have these coaches been shooting. There really is no substitute for experience. I know of people been shooting 20 plus years, had their level 4 but let it go. Think about that. Does having a degree mean more than life experience? Some times experience can mean more. Just my opinion.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> I coached/taught kids for 12 years before I went and got "Certified". Our new insurance carrier required at least 1 Certified Instructor or we had to stop GIVING (free) instruction to the kids of other club members.
> 
> I don't know the OP or the Instructors their kids have but.... there is no shortage of "experts" who think they know more than the instructors. I had a member loose his mind because I reduced the DW on his kid's bow. He DEMANDED that his son shoot 35# because that is the minimum DW to hunt here in PA. He even pulled the "My grandfather was a founding member of this club" card...as if that somehow made him an expert. He didn't want to hear anything about "working his way up to 35#".
> 
> The bolded part above is the attitude I see every week and it's not just coaching/instructing it's every facet of Archery Club operations. From setting up 3D courses to managing club funds to the food offered at events. Everyone has a opinion but no one is willing to help.


There is a name for those parents. They are called "helicopter parents" 😇


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

Rylando said:


> There's alot of Level 4's who know barely anything, and alot of level 1's and 2's who know quite a bit. Don't judge a book by it's USAA Coach level, lol.


Exactly


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

starchaser said:


> There is a name for those parents. They are called "helicopter parents" 😇


I long for helicopter parents ever since the snowplow parents came along.


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## starchaser (May 10, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> A lot of valuable learning looks like floundering for a long time.


No replacement for years and years of trial and error. Lot of hidden jewels out there


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