# Report on the new W&W CXT and EX limbs



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I just received W&W’s new INNO CXT with the new EX Power Limbs. It is a bit cleaner looking than the regular INNO system due to less swirly prints all around the riser. I read the advertising statements and to be honest I was really skeptical with the comment, “The string never hits your arm”. I even told Mr. Park, President of W&W that I don’t believe it. He kept say, “No! Really!” I have hit my arm for years (mainly on the return after the arrow has left the string) but still it has always been a pain. I have felt that it was due to the hand torque in the bow hand and the easiest way to fix that is to file the grip down on one side to get the torque back in the right plane. As a matter of fact I was planning on doing just that with my Apex but the new bow arrived so I decided to shoot the new CXT quickly to see if it was true. It is. I am shocked and am impressed. I used the same grip to make sure it had the same feel to my Apex when shooting it. I am not sure if it will give me better grouping but I did not hit my arm. I even took my arm guard off to verify and sure enough the bow string stayed in the same plane during the shot and after the shot. 

I read the statements that W&W wrote in their “owner’s manual”, which does explain that it is a combination of the riser and limbs they have developed, so next I plan to put the Apex Prime limbs in the riser to see what happens. I will let you know after my tests. 

Disclaimer: I did receive the bow from W&W at no charge.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

*Win & Win*

I can't wait for your complete critque. I have been shooting a Win & Win bow for about five years and currently contemplating the purchase of the new Win & Win bow; riser and limbs. 


Regards,


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> I even took my arm guard off to verify and sure enough the bow string stayed in the same plane during the shot and after the shot.


Interesting. Could you define this further please Rick? 

For this statement to be interpreted as 100 percent correct, there are some serious implications to the physics that need to be overcome. Not least the effect on arrow spine and the phenomena of the string moving off the sighting line string plane as it moves sideways around the fingers during release. 
And the forces of momentum as it passes through the plane it would occupy at rest.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Rick McKinney said:


> I just received W&W’s new INNO CXT with the new EX Power Limbs. It is a bit cleaner looking than the regular INNO system due to less swirly prints all around the riser. I read the advertising statements and to be honest I was really skeptical with the comment, “The string never hits your arm”. I even told Mr. Park, President of W&W that I don’t believe it. He kept say, “No! Really!” I have hit my arm for years (mainly on the return after the arrow has left the string) but still it has always been a pain. I have felt that it was due to the hand torque in the bow hand and the easiest way to fix that is to file the grip down on one side to get the torque back in the right plane. As a matter of fact I was planning on doing just that with my Apex but the new bow arrived so I decided to shoot the new CXT quickly to see if it was true. It is. I am shocked and am impressed. I used the same grip to make sure it had the same feel to my Apex when shooting it. I am not sure if it will give me better grouping but I did not hit my arm. I even took my arm guard off to verify and sure enough the bow string stayed in the same plane during the shot and after the shot.
> 
> I read the statements that W&W wrote in their “owner’s manual”, which does explain that it is a combination of the riser and limbs they have developed, so next I plan to put the Apex Prime limbs in the riser to see what happens. I will let you know after my tests.
> 
> Disclaimer: I did receive the bow from W&W at no charge.


Who would think that a three time world champion and one of the greatest archers in known history would get a free bow Somehow I don't think you can be bought that easy Rick. Sounds interesting.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Jim. ☺ 

Whiz-oz. Actually, you are correct, it doesn’t stay in a particular plane 100% of the time. However, it recovers to within the plane a person is seeking far better than anything I have shot and I have shot quite a few bows over the years. The riser and limbs appear to recover quickly in one direction or at least far better than any bow I have ever seen. I know you are a “black and white” kind of guy (at least I hope that’s why you brought up this concern) but also, I hope you do not get too bogged down into the “finite” details that really have very little relevance to the end result. It is sort of like getting an A. You don’t have to have a 100% to get the A, just at least a 90% and I believe I am within that realm here. 

Just to clarify, when a person releases the string, the string does move in towards the archer’s arm, chest or whatever. This creates the archer’s paradox thus bending the arrow (column loading I believe that’s what it is called). The string oscillation due to this paradox creation can be quite a problem if it does not diminish quickly. What W&W has done is cut the oscillation down so quickly it does have an effect on the reaction of the bow and thus a positive effect on the archer’s form. Some setups increase the oscillation instead of cutting it down. What I am saying is that the new W&W CXT riser with the EX Prime limbs appears to cut it down far greater than all of the 100+ bows I have shot over the years. I would know since I have ALWAYS hit my arm no matter what I did. I was able to cut it down a lot by working on the grip as I mentioned before but it may not be necessary with the new W&W bow. 

To clarify hitting the arm: there appears to be three (major) ways to hit the arm. First is that your arm is sticking in the way and the string hits the arm while traveling down it’s range. Not good. Doesn’t feel good and the end results are really bad! Next, you can hit your arm by plucking the string rather poorly. Not good and very inconsistent. Both of these are not good and most people will try to fix the problem by form changes. The third way is when the string hits the arm after the arrow has left the string and it is “returning” to it’s “resting place”. Although this last one does not normally affect the arrow flight it does have a residual affect on how you shoot your next shot. Most archers move their arm to keep this from happening without knowing it. Although the archer’s movement is meant to happen after the arrow has left the string, it will eventually happen before and your consistency will be less and less. This is what I had to deal with over the years. I was able to cut that down by finding the right pressure point on the grip and filing down the grip in order to get that pressure point just right. That takes time and some extra work but worth it. 

Now, back to some more results shooting the new bow. ☺

I put the Apex Prime limbs on the bow to see if there were any different results and I could tell that the string was slightly brushing my arm guard. Not much, but enough to know there was a slight bit of difference. Then I took off the weights that were just below the grip to see if there was a difference and yes there was a difference. I noticed that the string was touching my armguard consistently but still not as bad as with my Apex setup. Then I put the new EX Prime limbs on and kept the weights off to see if there was any difference and found that the string hardly touched my arm again. Then I put three weights on each side of the bow in this new weight attachment area (originally I had just 1 weight on each side which appears to be the way it comes) and found that the string did not even come close to hitting or touching my arm. Thus, there really is some merit to this system. 

Next, I want to tune the bow to see what difference there is between the Apex and the new system. I am holding near 39# and I am using the McKinney II 650’s. The plunger is near middle tension. Unfortunately I will have to wait a few days because we have a major weather front coming in. I hope to test the two limbs and weights to see if there is any affect to the tune. I normally shoot the bare shaft at 30, 50 and 70 meters. This will give me a good indication on whether or not this lack of side oscillation changes the spine needed for the tune of the bow. 

And finally, the ultimate is to see if it groups any better than the Apex I was shooting. I really enjoyed shooting the Apex and felt it was one of the finer bows I have shot since the WinEx setup. I really didn’t want to change bows but like all archers we have to keep trying new technology and the latest and greatest if we can. Will it help my shooting? I doubt it since my biggest problem is more “mental” at this stage than equipment or form. However, it is really fun to play! ☺


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

What were the string specs (material, number of strands) you used, did WW specify that and are you going to play with different materials? 

Thanks

Viper1 out.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper 1. I am using BCY’s 8125 material with 14 strands. I am using the BCY Halo material .019” serving. I may need to put two more strands in to eliminate creep. But so far the creep is very minor with 39#’s. ☺

I probably will not test too much on the string material at this time. The 450 type material is too harsh for me and it is slower and makes the arrow react weaker. I see no advantage when using it. However, I may try Dynaflite 97 eventually. 

I have set the brace height at 9” for my 70” setup. I may bring that up to near 9.25” but right now it appears to shoot ok. 

Reading the W&W manual all they say is to have a brace height between 9” to 9.75” or near those specs in mm.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

your findings are really interesting rick...enough for me to contemplate trying out this set-up which is a big deal--for me--as i am really happy with my x-factor/borders set-ups..

and not because my string hits my arm--it doesn't--but it seems to indicate that W&W has discovered a way to improve the torsional stability of their limbs even further..

i have always felt that borders and W&W are way ahead of the others in the area of torsional stability and this seems to be further proof of that...

looking forward to your further findings as you get to shoot it more!!


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> I know you are a “black and white” kind of guy (at least I hope that’s why you brought up this concern) but also, I hope you do not get too bogged down into the “finite” details that really have very little relevance to the end result.



Oh, I'm very black and white when it comes to the physics of the natural world. 
I'm also very aware that what you describe in general terms is correct for your meaning and context. 

However, there is a tendency for anything written by Rick McKinney to be treated as absolute gospel. 

If some of your statements are presented out of context, they become contrary to that which we know to be true. 

And in this fashion, unknown and uncontrollable by you, someone will say "Rick says that these limbs make the bowstring stay in the same plane!"
Anyone who doesn't know this thread would regard this presented fact with either wonder, or wonder what you've been smoking.

In Australia, we have "1400 Opinion Syndrome" which I am sure exists in the rest of the world. It infers that the closer you have shot to 1400, the more you must know about archery. 

The unfortunate thing is that it's rarely displayed by the actual archer. It's displayed by their fans. 

So I'd just like to remind you that you're seen as a creditable repository of knowledge and experience, whether you want to be or not.

This makes it hard for you to write generalisations without lots of care.


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

I asked Juan Serrano at AZ cup why he still wears an arm guard with the new inno he said it still hit his arm.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

whiz...you make some good points but am pretty sure rick doesn't have to be reminded of his responsibilities as a poster....

he has always shown his professionalism and objectivity in all his past posts and i for one am grateful for all his inputs and look forward to many more of the same in the future...


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

There are too many factors influencing the possibility of the string hitting the arm after the release, some of them:

1) String elasticity
2) Brace (limbs pre-charge, limbs slenght)
3) "hard" release
4) bow rotation on vertical plane (riser, stabilizers, limbs mas distribution)
5) arrow spine /tuning
6) size of the forearm 
7) rotation of the bow elbow
8) starting angle to riser between fingers and arm 

and probably I'm forgetting others...

As in any case it happens after the arrow leaving the bow, it might be considered an indicator of poor tuning, but not really so important. A good solution to it, instead of buying a full new bow, is usually ... to use an armguard. 

While testing for many years W&W limbs and risers with my son, we have never understood why W& W was so concerned about this point, that has very few relationship with the consistency of the limbs (agin, everything happens after the arrow leaves the string...)


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Whiz, if the "1400 opinion syndrome" seems to be a marketting ploy that needs to be red flagged as you say, then why are there so many 1400 opinion spouters about other "NEW" bow designs out there.
Is it so that the Fans of these spouters will follow a not so good bow? 1400 opinion sells more bows that real data...

Rule for one and not a rule for another here!

Sounds like from this logic that there is a good possibility, the bow with the most 1400 spouters is the least good... just thinking out loud here.

Sounds like the spouters are paid employees of the company they are spouting about???

sponsered archers are in essence salesmen, and we all know salesman have good info but are baised. The problem with the internet is that you dont know who the salesman is. 

Whiz, How come your cynical of Non-Hoyt innovation, even to the point of belittling the persons crediability when commenting on non-hoyt product observations, Ricks credentials are open to see, and his motives are clear...
Are you trying to "attack" the point or the person, because there is no tangable data to address the main point, so you "attack" Ricks motives and ability by putting 1400 shooters under scrutiny by the implications of the words you used.
("Attack" is the wrong word as its too strong a meaning, but it highlights the direction of the questions/statements)


We personally didnt see the lack of arm strike as the biggest improvement in torsionally stiff limbs, we think there are bigger, Whiz, Maybe you should try some non-hoyt bows and see what this is about, before blindly questioning all non-hoyt improvements. (though im sure you have tried alot of bows, :wink

Though several club archers here have started to not use an arm guard, so this thread did make us wonder how much torsional stbility is in these new limbs.

Whiz, your posts are normally very thought provoking, and i think we all have a right to extract more information from people to assess the the credability of the claim. Rick tried to Address your question, and we try to give as much info too, i think its a little off to question the credability of 1400 shooters by insunuating that the info might be duff, but your entitled to ask for more info and ignore what you read... 
Im sure the rest of the AT'ers all know to follow this rule without you needing to point it out.
Afterall, that means we also need to Ignore/censor/moderate/belittle, most of what Jake Kaminski, limbwalker, and asprin busters say, as they are acheivers in archery, and have had finicial gain to get from the industry. Who else do we get wise words from then???
I dont know your Archery CV, but your quite definatly Pro Hoyt....


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> Whiz, if the "1400 opinion syndrome" seems to be a marketting ploy that needs to be red flagged as you say,


Interesting. Where exactly did I say that?




Borderbows said:


> Whiz, How come your cynical of Non-Hoyt innovation, even to the point of belittling the persons crediability when commenting on non-hoyt product observations,


Where did I question the Non-Hoyt Innovation? Did you think that Rick's description was accurate? 



Borderbows said:


> Are you trying to "attack" the point or the person, because there is no tangable data to address the main point, so you "attack" Ricks motives and ability by putting 1400 shooters under scrutiny by the implications of the words you used.


No tangible data? I love it when you really go off Sid. You totally miss the point. 



Borderbows said:


> Maybe you should try some non-hoyt bows and see what this is about, before blindly questioning all non-hoyt improvements.


BLINDLY questioning ALL non-hoyt improvements..

Interesting. I believe I questioned Ricks description of something which wasn't possible. And I believe that he said that I was right. Can you actually show me ANY posts where I have BLINDLY questioned anything? regardless of it being ANY improvement? I guess, if you could support this statement, you could search across four Internet Archery forums and put links up to my posts. But I know with absolute certainty that you can't. 

So your statement is a total lie and you'll conveniently ignore that I've called you out on it, but don't worry. jmvargus will likely wade in with an equally unsubstantiable claim of support.



Borderbows said:


> that means we also need to Ignore/censor/moderate/belittle, most of what Jake Kaminski, limbwalker, and asprin busters say, as they are acheivers in archery, and have had finicial gain to get from the industry. Who else do we get wise words from then???
> I dont know your Archery CV, but your quite definatly Pro Hoyt....


I have actually met Jake and neither he, limbwalker or asprin buster make statements that I know confuse opinion with fact. 

My archery CV is immaterial. I am financially disadvantaged by my involvement in Archery. Surely you're not equating ability to think with archery achievement?

And how ironic that you say that I'm quite definately Pro Hoyt. 
Hey! Aren't you a part owner of Border Bows? 
The Border Bows who's representative, ie, you, who recently bagged out the design innovations of the Hoyt Formula RX and then turned around to produce a set of limbs based on the same principles?

Hmmm. How about that? 

Don't worry. Non pro anything jmvargus will just happen to step in so that you can conveniently ignore this post. 

Sorry Rick. There's pretty much no chance of you being able to finish your report of this undisturbed.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

Thanks buddy. "1400 syndrome" or not, it's pretty easy to tell who the gentlemen in the game are.

Viper1 out.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Interesting. Where exactly did I say that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, i miss read your post, My appologies...

The only comment would be, that the Paralever only has one advantage in our view. We have doubled the limb butt re-enforcements to eleminate the limb butt flex as its a parasitic loss in efficency in our view. No parralever from us. just a long ILF. (different topic) We use the same former, with the same geometry, with the same taper, and limb widths as our normal ILFs to make the set of RX compatable Hex5's. we just left the limb butt long and stiffened it up, 100% effort to remove any Parralever effect from us. No copy, just a fit.
Sorry to Rick if i derailed the thread, wasnt the plan.

Im not hiding my part ownership of Border Archery. My name/location/avitar is clear. 
Your free bow test/review isnt something random Joe gets!!! Does Hoyt not have enough staff to test and review bows? Rick Happily stated he did get his bow for free.
But either way, If ive stepped on your toes you have my appologies.

Edit: didnt adress anything else quoted as is didnt want to derail this thread any further than i already had. Whiz, i will address any thing in another thread or PM is you want me to.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Geezzzzz….. I really didn’t mean to poke a hornet’s nest…. ☺

Let’s get a couple of things straight. First off, I think those who are staff shooters, sponsored shooters or even a lover of a particular product, you need to think before you jump in on a discussion of a competitor’s product. Your comments will always be suspect when you point out issues that are on the fringe of attack. Whiz…you were on the edge but not enough for me to call it out and I think we understand where we both are coming from. You made a legitimate question and it appears I answered it to your satisfaction. Jake, your comment could imply I am a liar, however, after considering this I am willing to believe that you just wanted to put in another comment from another W&W shooter. Just keep in mind since you are a Hoyt AND Easton staff shooter and since Easton who owns Hoyt sponsors the RA program anything you say about a competitor’s product will be highly suspect. Choose your words carefully. I will always wear an arm guard since I can still do something to hit my arm that I normally would not do. 

Sid thanks for the comments I think many are thinking but not willing to say. It is extremely hard to present information on this board without someone having ulterior motives. To me, your comments were just a build up of past discussions and it appears it came to a head on this last issue. 

Vittorio. I fully understand your comments, however, I wonder if you or Michele ever hit your arm as frequently as I have over the years. To not hit the arm is a wonderful feeling for me. I emphasize this “FOR ME” so you understand I do not know for sure how other archers react to hitting their arm constantly but I have always hated it and did everything I could to eliminate it but always had to deal with it. My belief is that I have had a very straight line with the arrow and this created the arm hitting. However, I cannot be 100% sure on this, just a speculation. 

I was asked to write this report at the AZ Cup from an archer who thought it would be good to read and he wanted my opinion and felt it would be good for others who are thinking about this type of bow. As I have said several times now, I had strong reservations about a claim that this bow would not hit your arm. However, that is not the underlying point of this report. I personally want to know if it matters for performance. After all, we all want to shoot better, no matter what age, what level we are at and type of discipline we shoot.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Rick, 

Thank you for your perspective and insight. It was great seeing you shoot at the Arizona Cup earlier this month. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Greg Bouras (Nov 17, 2006)

Thanks for the information on the new W&W bow Rick. It sounds as if a portion of the engineering budget at W&W has been allocated to implementing clever ways to dampen the natural response of the bowstring. If that is of some benefit to the archer then great job and keep up the good work. 

Several years ago when I was setting up my INNO bow the description from W&W indicated varying wall thickness throughout the length of the HMC stabilizer which indicated to me that the rod will have more than one natural frequency.
In addition they were among the lightest in mass weight among the stabilizers and rods I was considering. 
HMC stab and rods on the INNO bow combine to make a one of a kind shooting experience. That bow in my opinion is a tack pounder.

No doubt that W&W understands vibration. I am anxious to compare my new HMC plus stabs and rods when they arrive in a few weeks.


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

Rick I did not imply you were a liar I was giving input from Juan. I asked him in a jokingly mannor why he wears an arm guard and gave him a hard time about it. He just laughed and said it still hits his arm. I thought it was funny and wantedto share it with you guys. I just found it funny that w&w said it will never hit your arm in their ads yet a good shooter for them still hits. 


Didn't mean to stir the pot. 

Jake


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## ppayne (Jul 13, 2007)

I for one would love to get a chance to introduce myself to Rick Mckinney and thank him in person for the great help he's provided me either through his postings on AT and his prompt responses to my PMessages. Re-reading these private messages, I now realise I must have sounded like a total idiot, being new to the sport and full of " I-don't-know-how-to-do-this" / "how-do-I-find-out-about-that" inquiries. Yet, none of Rick Mckinney's patient answers had the slightest tone of condescension or preciousness attached to them. For this, I am very grateful for it isn't always easy to take up a new sport later in life and as such I very much appreciate having received support from a big gun. 

My own experience to be sure but I should add as well that Rick Mckinney's opinions are very much esteemed on this side of the border ( as told to me by experienced archers/coaches in the last few years ). Therefore I am very interested in reading his views on the new Win and Win bow ( which is quite the looker by the way, the bow not Rick ) In anycase, Rick Mckinney readily disclosed the fact the bow had come to him free, so there all is above the table as far as I am concerned.

PPayne


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Vittorio. I fully understand your comments, however, I wonder if you or Michele ever hit your arm as frequently as I have over the years. To not hit the arm is a wonderful feeling for me.


Rick, if we take high sped motion videos of the string after the arrow has left it, you will see how much the string is oscillating sideway, thus normally hitting the amguard. This oscillation can be reduced by tuning (everything included) , by increasing the strands in the string and by changing the design of the limbs, of course, but some oscillation will remain and if the sting wil hit the arm or not after release will at the end be related to the size of the forearm and the clearance you have from forearm to string at the relaese. Having somethinh less than 1" for clearance is quite common, and in this case you will EVER get the string hitting the arm, and more if you are using a 14 strands string ... try a 22 strands string and you will surely get a better results, but still string wil hit the arm after the relaease, if you don't have a very large distance between arm and string. 
Yes, my son has a big forearm, so he needs an armguard and will ever need it, independently from limbs. With very good releas eand bow jumping out from hand the problem is limited, but if the relaese is less than good, the string will ever hit his armguard. 
Yes, my daughter has less than 1" clearance and her string is constantly hitting the armguard. 
Yes, all archers in my club and all archers I'm coaching in Ireland are having the string hitting the arguard in different amount. May be because all of them are using a close angle to the forearm at the relaese. 
No, I don' think this is a matter that merits too much attention, if you are sure that the bow is fine tuned to your needs.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

ppayne said:


> I for one would love to get a chance to introduce myself to Rick Mckinney and thank him in person for the great help he's provided me either through his postings on AT and his prompt responses to my PMessages. Re-reading these private messages, I now realise I must have sounded like a total idiot, being new to the sport and full of " I-don't-know-how-to-do-this" / "how-do-I-find-out-about-that" inquiries. Yet, none of Rick Mckinney's patient answers had the slightest tone of condescension or preciousness attached to them. For this, I am very grateful for it isn't always easy to take up a new sport later in life and as such I very much appreciate having received support from a big gun.
> 
> My own experience to be sure but I should add as well that Rick Mckinney's opinions are very much esteemed on this side of the border ( as told to me by experienced archers/coaches in the last few years ). Therefore I am very interested in reading his views on the new Win and Win bow ( which is quite the looker by the way, the bow not Rick ) In anycase, Rick Mckinney readily disclosed the fact the bow had come to him free, so there all is above the table as far as I am concerned.
> 
> PPayne


I would like to add my thanks to Rick as well. He has taken time to answer a thread question in a PM to me. It was above and beyond....and very much appreciated.

Rick, you are a heck of a resource and thank you for making yourself available to many of us!

Gabe


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

On the subject of arm-hitting, I've always had to wear an armguard as the string has always grazed my forearm, though it seems to be after the arrow has already gone. Not long ago I got some of the Apecs Prime limbs and noticed instantly that there was a lot less string contact. Something W&W had done to the limb design was having some effect on the string. Going back to my other bows and shooting either Innos or Samick Masters limbs and the contact returns. So it doesnt surprise me that the "whatever-it-is" they did in the Primes has been improved upon in the new range.

I also don't really think string contact is too much to worry about if everything else seems ok, but its a nice secondary bonus to reduce wear on strings or centre servings - or forearms


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

would like to echo everyone's appreciation of rick's willingness to help...

......he always answered all of my emails promptly with excellent insight and professionalism whenever i asked him for advice...

his book is still my archery bible......

thanks again rick!


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## RaptorX (Dec 28, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> his book is still my archery bible......


Ditto! (Hi Mari!)

Thank you, Rick, for your generosity. This is really interesting to me as I have a CXT riser on the way, and a set of Apecs Prime limbs sitting here waiting for it (hopefully the Volcano didn't swallow the plane and the riser will be here soon /^\....er...)

As you can see above, your observations and opinions in this thread are quite interesting to me, especially since you went ahead and tested it with Prime limbs as well. What wonderful timing and luck for me to be able to read such an evaluation and personal experience about products I will be experiencing myself soon (HMC stabs will go on this also). To have such information reported by someone who's opinion I value greatly, is just, well, really cool.

Will it matter to me if the string continues to occasionally hit my arm? No.
Yet, your description of a few ways it can hit "your" arm (I read that as a personal experience) coupled with Vittorio's reminder that there are many other factors why someone may have issues with this and may still even when shooting this settup, was also of value to me. I've done it due to poor tune, I've done it due to poor form and many other reasons. And though I have eliminated most all of them through practice, improvement, coaching and a better understanding of tune, occasionally (and oddly), I still find myself left with the one where it didn't affect the arrow flight and the string comes back and sticks under my arm guard (doesn't hurt, but it's annoying when it happens). So hearing you describe that one, was enlightening. It would be a plus if it was reduced, but I suspect it's something about me that is the cause. I will certainly look at this more closely with new eyes when it happens again, however. 

The bow can do funny things when the pressure points are off for whatever (form/grip/etc..) reasons. My favorite is when the bottom limb tip ends up in my LEFT SHORTS POCKET...er..a bit embarrassing...

Can't wait to try the new riser myself. I didn't buy it for the claim that it may not hit my arm so much, but because I thought it was well designed and the weight adjustments under the grip is very interesting to me and may offer more adjustable feel options. Also, because I had to sell my second riser earlier this year, and when I had the chance to replace it, I wanted something new to try and the CXT was the ticket for me (I admit, I too am bias to Win equipment, though I doubt anyone cares much about my opinion).

I'm quite grateful for your review, Rick. Thanks so much.

Brian


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Mr McKinney, I guess you only have yourself to blame for shooting so well all these years and gotten us so jealous.


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## Mertz (Jul 15, 2005)

Rick, I too would like to express my gratitude for you post and subsequent findings about the CXT Inno and the EXPower limbs.

Yes, it's true that the manufacturers tend to be a bit hyperbolic about their new products, which is exactly why we could use some objective and honest reviews as possible-- unfortunately Consumer Reports doesn't test archery equipment and we have to rely on 'sponsored' opinion--but I think I speak for a great many of us here on AT that you have earned the trust to speak to such matters. Even if you DID get the set up for free, I'm quite sure that Mr. Park would want you to be as objective as possible with your results as it wouldn't exactly benefit his company if you were not. I have the same issues with the string hitting my arm after shot and it is annoying if only for the extra noise it makes. And so, I for one am really interested in your results and hope you continue to post on this. 

I saw Serrano's CXT at Arizona Cup (Jake, I think it's Rene not Juan) and a friend asked him about it and he (Serrano) said he was very impressed with it, he'd only been shooting it for only a week! I have to admit it is a sweet looking bow aside from anything else W&W claims it to be. And I am very curious as to how it shoots.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Rick

Thanks as ever for the interesting observations.

One question - have you tried the Ex Power limb/Apecs combination?

It's the chicken/egg question. Riser, limbs or the combination. The CXT/Prime result suggests at least partly the riser - but maybe W&W have just fluked the perfect R.M. grip


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

*Report on Win & Win*

I sincerely appreciate the comments and expert advice from Rick, Viper 1, Vittorio and others.

I am looking forward to Rick's comments on the Win & Win CXT and EX limbs.

As for the negative stuff it doesn't reflect well on the individual and adds absolutely ZERO. 


Regards,


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Rick,

I realize that this is early in the process, I would appreciate your take on arrow selection for the W&W CXT and EX limbs. Specifically, do you find a need for an arrow spine that is stiffer/weaker than expected, based on your
past experiences.
We all will have to judge for ourselves what works.
Thanks so much! Butch


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words. Sharing your experiences can only give more knowledge for those who seek it. I was starving for knowledge when I started in archery and for some reason this caused me to want to give all I have to those who want it. Is the knowledge perfect? I doubt it. But at least it is available for those who ask. 

Jake. As I said it was a fleeting thought and since you PM’ed me, all is well with my world.  Vittorio. I did make a new string – 16 strands. The nock really clips on the string a bit harder than I want but it eliminated the elongation issue. I cannot imagine using 22 strands. I presume you recommend a Beiter nocking point? My 12-2 nocks just barely fit on this string, it has a harsher snap than I would really like. I will probably get some thinner serving than the .019” I am using right now.

The rains are still coming down here in Sacramento but hopefully it clears up late today. (In my old age, I am a fair weather shooter!) There have been some good comments and questions yesterday and I felt I could at least answer them to the best of my knowledge and give you sort of what my plans or for testing. 

1. I do plan on checking the tune differences between the two bows. I also plan on adding and deducting the weight just below the grip to see if there is a difference in tune. We already know that when changing the weight on the end of the stabilizer the nocking point changes so this will be a new area to see what happens. I would think that the arrow might get stiffer as you add weight to the lower part of the grip. Theory is that the less the bow moves the weaker the spine you need to shoot. So that will be my hypothesis to see if it works. Either way it will be fun to play! :wink:

2. As I said before, I took the grip off the Apex riser and put it on the new CXT to keep variables as limited as possible and as I mentioned earlier the riser performance was remarkable. I continuously hit my arm with the Apex and just purchased a new set of wood files so I could work on the grip. Using that same grip on the CXT the string did not hit my arm. This was amazing to me and refreshing as stated. I put the new grip back on the CXT and hopefully today I will shoot it and see if there is any difference. 

3. I did not think about testing the Apex riser with the new Inno EX Prime limbs. Good idea and something I will do to see if the arm gets hit – more or less. 

4. The interesting thing I was able to see was the plunger. I took the same plunger out of the Apex riser and put it in the CXT. The depth of plunger was the same. This was a bit unique for me. Normally when I switch risers I have to readjust the depth of the plunger a little in or a little out. However, these two risers had identical thickness in this area. I used my Beiter gauges to make sure the riser, limb, plunger, stabilizer and arrow were all aligned right and they were. This is very normal with the W&W products I have used in the past. A lot of this is due to who finishes the product. I am not sure if many know that W&W hires many “retired” archers. These are archers who can still shoot over 1300 but really are just average in Korea. These archers take pride in their work and look at each riser and limb as one they would shoot. 

5. I will use the same sight, same stabilizer system with just one change. I will add weight back to the end of the long stabilizer since there is no TFS on this new system. 

I think that does it for now. If you have questions feel free to ask.


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## aob (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi Rick,

I wasn't aware about adding weight at the end of the long rod will affect the nocking point. 
What effect will have nocking point by adding weight on the long rod?

Thanks,
aob


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

aob said:


> What effect will have nocking point by adding weight on the long rod? aob


Aob. Through random testing one day I took a couple of weights off my end stabilizer and found that the nock point had to be readjusted. It was only a small amount but enough for me to always check my tune once I move my weights around. 

My theory on this is that the nocking point is based on the limb tips hitting at the same time so that the nock leaves the string at the center point. This is called dynamic nock point. If the top limb hits first I think the nocking point would be high. If the bottom limb hits first then the nock would be low. When you add weight to the end stabilizer, this causes the limbs to arrive slightly different than before, therefore a need to readjust the nocking point. At least that is my theory.


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## tohjin (May 20, 2003)

I tried the CXT w/ innoEXpower just the other day at the club.

I realised the feeling is somewhat similar to the TFs.

fast dampening, solid limb action with a 'quick-stop' vibration siliar to that of a APECS prime on TF.

and it's kinda heavy, similar to that of TF again.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Rick McKinney said:


> Aob. Through random testing one day I took a couple of weights off my end stabilizer and found that the nock point had to be readjusted. It was only a small amount but enough for me to always check my tune once I move my weights around.
> 
> My theory on this is that the nocking point is based on the limb tips hitting at the same time so that the nock leaves the string at the center point. This is called dynamic nock point. If the top limb hits first I think the nocking point would be high. If the bottom limb hits first then the nock would be low. When you add weight to the end stabilizer, this causes the limbs to arrive slightly different than before, therefore a need to readjust the nocking point. At least that is my theory.


Thats pritty much what we think too. If the long rod pulls the top pocket forward, due to its weight, then the top limb will be stressed up a tad more.
This is one more reason why tiller cannot be zero for all archers. Those with back weights and V bars will have slightly different limb timing, and all things effect each other, so nocking point would need to be revisited. the final flick on the nocking point will differ as one limb will be differently timed at the point where the bow closes will change the NP position at launch.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Sid. I am glad you agree. Also, the pressure point in the grip will determine tiller and nocking point. I know that some believe that tiller can just be set at zero and you can work it out, but I think the easier way is for the archer to play with tiller to find the best dynamic system for the limbs to reach their forward momentum. These items are minor and yet you can fix them to get a few more points out of the bow. When the bow is in good harmony (little vibration, little jerking movements eliminated and a well balanced feel) then your body stays as relaxed as possible in order not to interfere with the arrow being launched. I know it sounds Zenistic but you do want the bow to become part of you or better yet, you become one with the bow. I think I have read that somewhere…. :wink:


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## scriv (Jan 31, 2008)

*agree*



midwayarcherywi said:


> I would like to add my thanks to Rick as well. He has taken time to answer a thread question in a PM to me. It was above and beyond....and very much appreciated.
> 
> Rick, you are a heck of a resource and thank you for making yourself available to many of us!
> 
> Gabe


I agree. Rick is a Champion in every sense of the word. Thank you. 
Dave


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> If the long rod pulls the top pocket forward, due to its weight, then the top limb will be stressed up a tad more.


It's absolutely what happens. Often the subtle can be easily seen if you extend things to the ridiculous. 

The greater the weight on the front of the longrod, the more the archer has to compensate to hold the bow level. And that weight is being borne by the top limb. Correspondingly, it's also unloading the bottom.

It would be possible (if you could hold the combined weight of the bow up by the handle) to put so much weight on the longrod so that at full draw the top limb would hold all the load and the bottom limb would be totally unloaded.

Mind you, holding the string at your normal anchor point would be rather interesting.

Releasing the string at this point would show in the most dramatic way possible what must happen in a proportionally smaller way when there is any torque caused by weight on the long rod.

Most people don't realise this, so it wouldn't be surprising that someone who knows their own shooting ability back to front will pick up the differences in tune if they play around with stabiliser weights. 

This effect is being appreciated more with the compound shooters who are investigating nock path travel using jigs so that they can see what is happening to the nock when they release. 

Some of the weights being used by the compounders move their CG out to 130mm forward and 30mm down from the contact point of the grip

That's quite a bit more stress on the top limb than the bottom and it will play hell with nock path plots. 

Being that recurves are more sensitive to spine changes, once again, it's not surprising that someone who is attuned to their own performance can notice the difference with longrod weight changes. 

The picture below shows how far out the CG can be on a heavily weighted Compound. The black mark just above the knot in the plumbob string shows where the two stringlines crossed and therefore the Center of Gravity.

Next time the opportunity presents itself, I'll try taking some photos of the vertical movement of the nock after the realease on a recurve with 10 pounds of weight on the end of a 33 inch longrod.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Adding weight in front of the bow (moving COG in front) makes :

1) The point of pressure moving up on the grip
2) The draw lenght incresing therefore slightly
3) The arrow reacting slightly stiffer
4) The dynamic front rotation increasing in speed

Therefore, to keep the bow in tune, you will need:

1) to pull in the clicker a bit
2) to weaken the botton a bit
3) to lower the nocking point or (not suggested) to decrease static tiller

All above parameters are interrelated, so for instance:

Pulling in the clicker a bit makes:

1) The point of pressure moving up on the grip
2) The draw lenght increasing of course slightly
3) The arrow reacting slightly stiffer (yes, stiffer, not weaker)
4) The dyinamic front rotation increasing in speed

Therefore, to keep the bow in tune, you will need:
1) to add a bit of weight in front
2) to weaken the botton a bit
3) to lower the nocking point or (not suggested) to decrease static tiller

Changing the shape of the grip from low to hight makes:

1) The point of pressure moving up on the grip
2) The draw lenght increasing of course slightly
3) The arrow reacting slightly stiffer (yes, stiffer, not weaker)
4) The dinamic front rotation increasing in speed 

Therefore, to keep the bow in tune, you will need:
1) to remove a bit of weight in front
2) to weaken the botton a bit
3) to lower the nocking point or (not suggested) to decrease static tiller

I can go on, but other possible combinations are more hesotheric than real. 

This interrelations are the reason why I don't like to play with static tiller, and have limbs working from zero to natural tiller only. If inside all these interrelations (and there are others, like rest angle to the shaft) you also introduce an alteration of the dynamic of the limbs, you will easily end up in a loop with too many possible/impossible critical solution. 

Compound works exactly the the same way. Adding/removing front weight usually generates the need to use ... a bow press to change draw lenght . Only, compound people has a more mechanical approach to tuning, quite often forgetting the human factor in the shot (an Hooter Shooter will ever have diffculties in simulating the exact position of the pressure point of the archer using that specific set up and draw lenght combinations). So, they go on with high speed videos to analize travel of the shaft on the rest, while sometime a recurve-like approach will solve tuning faster.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> ...
> Pulling in the clicker a bit makes:
> 
> ...
> ...


Please explain.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Rick McKinney said:


> Sid. I am glad you agree. Also, the pressure point in the grip will determine tiller and nocking point. I know that some believe that tiller can just be set at zero and you can work it out, but I think the easier way is for the archer to play with tiller to find the best dynamic system for the limbs to reach their forward momentum. These items are minor and yet you can fix them to get a few more points out of the bow. When the bow is in good harmony (little vibration, little jerking movements eliminated and a well balanced feel) then your body stays as relaxed as possible in order not to interfere with the arrow being launched. I know it sounds Zenistic but you do want the bow to become part of you or better yet, you become one with the bow. I think I have read that somewhere…. :wink:


Rick, i have little hobby horses that i jump on from time to time, and tuning tiller with grip pressure points has been one ive been on before.
Not all risers have the same pressure point, so tiller again cannot be zero for all archers.
Here is a thought. if the pressure point is like a wheel base on a 4X4, and the 4x4 is on the flat the centre of gravity remains within the wheelbase, and the steeper the angle you go at, the shorter the wheelbase becomes to the COG. so there gets a knife edge point where the balance is delicate.
With a very high grip and a lower throat, will push the centre of push (COG on the 4x4) of the bow closer the a knife edge, but a low grip will be more like the flat level 4x4.
Does this make any sence or am i jibbering???

What would you want, a bow that forces you into a more balance position, and is knife edge, or one thats more tollerant and vague? 
No idea, but it might highlight the thought process behind grip pressure points and tiller...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> It's absolutely what happens. Often the subtle can be easily seen if you extend things to the ridiculous.
> 
> The greater the weight on the front of the longrod, the more the archer has to compensate to hold the bow level. And that weight is being borne by the top limb. Correspondingly, it's also unloading the bottom.
> 
> ...


ah... nice info...


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

All this is extremely dependent of the archer and his/her body structure, form etc, such as draw length and preference of grip height.

To keep things simple, what we want is a bow that returns from dynamic tiller, in full draw to static tiller in brace in such way that nock travel (nock path) stays as straight as possible from full draw to brace (viewed from side). Plus a spine tune that allows the bow to shoot arrows straight (sight pin when viewed from behind stays adjacent to string, both in full draw and brace, THA has a nice picture of this one)

So to keep things as minimal as possible, what you want is 

a) a tune that allows the nock travel to be as little as possible (tuning dynamic tiller in full draw to be as close as possible to static tiller, with no change of riser angle or balance change of top/bottom limb stress, plus tuned to fit that archers release or nock up-down movenment in release)

b) tune, or limb characteristic that allows minimal movement and quick recovery from sideways movenment caused by paradox, plus the actual power stroke to work in parallel line to bow center, so its case of making arrow work and tune with bow rather than bow to work and tune with arrow. (ie. don't try to make the arrow work in any cost, move up/down in spine and length until you get one that tunes for that bow.)

c) of course you can't work any of these unless you have high-speed camera and/or a lot of time and patience

Hope I didn't make simple thing even more complicated :wink:


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

To mess with your minds a little bit more, here is how I personally think about the tuning when I start working:

a bow has "dynamic" preferred spine, that is not only affected by pounds and speed, but also power curve, limb recovery "torsional stability etc" and such. You can work with this by changing poundage, string mass etc. Anything that affects vertical axis (distance from pressure point to plunger, weights, etc.) affects nocking point, (so poundage does little to that if tiller and centre of gravity stays exactly the same, but string change may if i.e. serving length differ). Anything that works sideways affects spine.

Arrow has its own "dynamic" spine, that variates from static spine, and you can change this by altering foc, mass, length, and even actual arrow wall material. Of course you can affect nock point and nock travel too, in ways such as changing from asymmetric nock to symmetric nock.

So what we want is a tune that blends these two dynamic spines, the bows potential to arrows actual dynamic spine, in such way that nock travel is even and bow shoots arrows in parallel path to bow center. In this case the fletched and bareshaft should impact in same place in distances in which other forces have minimal effect to it (bareshaft is a bit lighter in weight and a bit stiffer in dynamic spine, so going back in distances it should impact on left hand side (rh archers) and a bit up).

So you can change arrow dynamic spine or bow dynamic spine, and arrow-affecting nock travel and bow-affecting nock travel. Not to mention power stroke (from full draw to brace, with brace changes) which creates an another dimension and its own variables to these calculations. (I prefer not to change brace height at all and work around it, just as Vittorio prefers not to change tiller, and keep one variable static)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that the path is right :tongue:


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Vittorio. You and I will probably always disagree with tiller. That’s a good thing. This does show the many different results a person can get and they do need to experiment to find what gives them the most consistency. Over the years of my testing I have found that getting my tiller set right allows me to aim better. It also allows my bow hand to stay very relaxed while aiming and when I make the shot, the bow literally feels as an extension of me. The results gave me years of high level shooting. However, as you have explained with your thorough explanation you have had excellent results as well. Although these two extreme differences appear to be confrontational they actually prove the point that there are many ways to find the best results for the individual. Again, I preface that it is important you find what gives you the most consistent performance. Zal’s explanation is another good reason to experiment to find what will work for you. 

Now it’s off to shoot on a fine sunny day!


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Well, after wearing myself out I really could not come to any conclusions. What I did find out is that playing with the weights just below the grip had no affect on nocking point or tune. This is good since now a I can play with the different amount of weights to see how they group without having to retune the system each time I change it. 

As for tune compared to my Apecs system, the CXT appears to make the arrows tune weaker, about two complete turns on the Beiter plunger. Although the bow scales state the bows are within .5 pounds of each other the Inno EX Prime limbs feel stiffer or possibly stacks a bit more than the Apecs Prime limbs. There is a noticeable difference. I am really not set up to do a draw force curve. Living in three different states has played havoc on my equipment tools! 

I plan to go out tomorrow and work on a couple of things. First is setting up the CXT like I did the INNO. Since I have been shooting the Apecs I forgot that I put a shorter v-bar extender on the bow. This did cause a bit of balance problems for me. Not much but noticeable. Secondly I plan to lower the poundage on the CXT system. At 50 meters the groups were about 2” vertically. However, they were over 1 foot spread across horizontally. Most of this I attribute to the arrow being weak thus a bit sensitive or critical. 

At this time, I still like my Apecs better than the CXT. But I mentioned this before. That’s also cool since I can shoot whichever one I want to since I am not a “sponsored” shooter! ☺ I plan to put the Apecs Prime limbs on the CXT to see how it tunes and use the Apecs with the Inno EX Prime limbs. As you can see, there is still a lot to do.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Today’s session was far better than yesterday’s. Last night I went over parts of the bow I felt needed to be changed to fit my form. I put a 6” v-bar extender on the set up instead of the 4” I had on the Apecs. I added weight to the end of the stabilizer to get a balance I had similar to the INNO I used a few years ago. I moved the plunger in about ½ turn due to bare shaft reaction at 30, 50 & 70 Meters. There was a slight curve to the flight of the bare shaft (left to right). This indicated the plunger was out a bit. Due to the action of the bow, which caused the arrow to act weaker, I took 20 grains off the point weight to stiffen the arrow (120 down to 100). Also, I lowered the poundage about 2 pounds to get a similar feel to the Apecs. And finally I put an older modified grip on the bow to get it to feel the way I like it to. 

The bare shaft hit in the gold consistently an inch below the 10 ring at all three distances hitting about 7 O’clock. The performance of the bow is about the same as the Apecs. I did touch my bow arm sometimes with the string but it was far less than what I was experiencing with the Apecs. I played with the weights below the grip using all three on each side to using none. There is definitely an advantage when using more weights. I figure this is due cutting down torque during the shot. The weight was noticeable but not as much as I thought it would be. I even put two weights on one side and one weight on another to see what would happen but it wasn’t enough to notice any improvement. 

The sound of the bow is great. The reaction is excellent. I will shoot it a few times more to make sure but it definitely is a good system. Will it give you more points? No…I don’t think any bow will give you more points other than your form. The more consistent you are the better the possibility of good grouping. Key issues that I noticed is a good grip, a good balance and a good tune.


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## Mertz (Jul 15, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Will it give you more points?


HELL YEAH...for two weeks...but I want one anyway.:teeth:



Rick McKinney said:


> Key issues that I noticed is a good grip, a good balance and a good tune.


Even better!

--Ron


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Rick McKinney said:


> There is definitely an advantage when using more weights.


Looks like the olympic recurve is at long last catching up with the barebow.



:shade:


It would be interesting to hear from anyone who may have tried one 'arco nudo'.


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## Archer-8 (Jun 24, 2009)

*Question for Rick*

Thanks for posting your info about the CXT riser, it is much appreciated. 
I was wondering where the riser was made, China or Korea? 

Also if you were going to get a smaller center serving thread I find the 62XS Braided works well, it comes in .018 size and if you need smaller, the Angel Majesty comes in .015.


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

Archer-8 said:


> I was wondering where the riser was made, China or Korea?


As far as I know, that CXT riser is made in China.
But there EX limbs are still made in Korea.

jx


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Archer-8. All of the carbon risers made by W&W are made in China. His system is quite unique and it does take a tremendous amount of labor to make them. The painting process alone takes a lot of labor to get the quality they have. All of their high end limbs are made in Korea. 

I will look for some Majesty braided material. It appears to be far less abrasive than the material I am using currently. 

Shooting the bow today, there is no question it is a well built bow. The CXT is at least equal to the Apecs. Each has it’s uniqueness. The TFS with the Apecs and the weight just below the grip with the CXT. Bow sets of limbs are good. I still have some testing to do with the Apecs Prime on the CXT but once I lowered the poundage with the Inno EX Primes I was quite happy with them. Bow appear to perform great. And both riser and limbs of the Apecs and CXT are far better feeling than the original Inno. 

Again, this is all personal. Each of you need to decide what you are looking for. If you are looking for the latest technology of carbon risers you cannot go wrong with the CXT or the Apecs. It’s a great improvement over the original Inno system.


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## me2 (Apr 18, 2010)

Rick,
Are the Apecs, CTX, and Inno grips interchangeable?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Me2. The Inno grip and screws attached to it are different than the Apecs and CXT. The Apecs and CXT grips appear to be extremely close. They use larger screws than the original Inno grip. The Apecs grip was just about 1/16th of an inch off to fit perfectly in the screw system but close enough to work. I am not sure if I have a slightly damaged grip or not. However, they work close enough for me. 

The biggest problem I found with the Apecs and CXT grip is that they are a bit wide to my liking and not low enough. The throat is good enough to start with (nothing a wood file can’t fix). The place where you put your fatty part of your hand (just below the thumb) is a bit wide which I believe can cause torque. The higher angled grip causes me to raise my front shoulder, which is a bit of a problem for me. Although I hate to use the overused term we appear to be enamored about, but Biomechanically when my grip is too high my shoulder automatically rises when pressure is applied at full draw. A low grip keeps my shoulder down. I use an old GM+ low grip. Although the grip I use does not fit perfectly, when I put a bit of bond-o inside the grip it forms a good fit.


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## Blacky (Jun 21, 2004)

Hey Rick,

there's nothing wrong about that good old "******* Engeneering" using Bondo, a file and sanding paper. If the grip doesn't feel right, everything else is getting out-o-whack.

C ya
Blacky


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, 

As always, thanks for chiming in. It still amazes me that someone with your credentials will bother posting here like you do but many of us are glad you are willing to take the time. 

You stated clearly in your book that you had become good friends with Mr. Park, so I have always expected and understood the fact that you would be testing and using his equipment - and frankly yours is one of the opinions I look for when it comes to W&W products. There just aren't that many experienced U.S. archers using their gear, so sometimes it's tough to get a read on it.

Ever since I watched that video on their website, I've been intrigued by this concept of "not hitting your arm." Even if it doesn't affect the score, anything that makes a bow more fun to shoot is alright by me. I can only see this as a good thing and I'm glad you took the time to report on it.

As for the sniping that ensued, it's part of the reason I've not been posting much lately. We have some fairly new participants here that just don't know when enough is enough.

Thanks for taking the time. Lots of great info up there about tuning too. Folks would do well to copy many posts in this thread for future reference.

John.


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> The higher angled grip causes me to raise my front shoulder, which is a bit of a problem for me. Although I hate to use the overused term we appear to be enamored about, but Biomechanically when my grip is too high my shoulder automatically rises when pressure is applied at full draw. A low grip keeps my shoulder down.


Same here. The GMX grip is about as high as I can go and still shoot well before my shoulder becomes an issue. I have tried lower angled grips (well, ones I have modified to be lower) and although the shoulder is certainly better I have struggled to get the bow reacting as well and the grouping suffers a little. Perhaps I just need to experiment with the grip a bit more, but its good to hear its not just me who struggles to shoot well with high grips


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Acehero. What you might want to try (if you haven’t already) is play a little with your tiller. Usually when you use a low grip there is more pressure on the lower limb. In order to counter this put the tiller between 3/8” to ½” and it might help some. Play a little with it and see if it helps with your groups. 

Also, I went back and checked the two grips of the CXT and the Apecs. Originally I put the Apecs grip on and it was a tight fit but worked. I could not screw in the two screws completely (one went in and the other only went in a couple of turns). I put the new CXT grip on the Apecs last night and found it to be quite loose. It would probably work but you will need to shim it to keep it from moving around.


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## Blacky (Jun 21, 2004)

The INNO CXT and the APEX share the same grip, whith the *same outside shape and dimensions*. Since the CXT riser is 2 Millimeters (5/64") thicker in the grip area than the APEX riser, the inside dimensions of the grips are manufactured accordingly. That means the Apex grip may break, when it is forced onto the CXT and the CXT grip fits really sloppy on the APEX and would need some shims, as Rick mentioned. When comparing the two grips, I could see that the side walls of the CXT grip are thinner, since more material had to be taken off. Other measurements were the same.
Hope that helps.

Blacky


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## Blacky (Jun 21, 2004)

Here's a little teaser picture. More pictures, performance data and a f-d curve will be on BowReports.com within the next two days.

Blacky


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> Acehero. What you might want to try (if you haven’t already) is play a little with your tiller. Usually when you use a low grip there is more pressure on the lower limb. In order to counter this put the tiller between 3/8” to ½” and it might help some. Play a little with it and see if it helps with your groups.



Thanks I shall give it a try. I have played with tiller before with the result that my bows have held steadier with a neutral or even slightly negative tiller. This was always shooting medium grips though. I'm lucky to have a spare bow at the moment so I'll set that up with a lower grip and try it out with a good amount of positive tiller. Thanks very much for the suggestion.


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## RaptorX (Dec 28, 2007)

MY Inno CXT riser arrived Friday. I spent the whole evening putting it together (hours went by in a flash, no doubt many understand this). I got it up to setting the nocking point in the garage that night. I spent over 4 hours since early Saturday morning (no wind) tuning and tweaking and adjusting and....(you know the drill). I truly have fallen in love with this bow all together. Serious "new gear rush" surely attributed to some tight groups and fine shooting this weekend (hope that continues on). Up early again this morning to a different range (out to 90m) to continuing the tuning and tweaking just trying to get the most out of it I can (I kept wondering, "can it get even better?").

I was shooting with a friend today and just before we left he asked if I thought the riser made a difference with the string hitting my arm. I too have always had the string hit my arm occasionally (as mentioned in an earlier post on this thread). However, not even thinking of this in the combined 9 hours of shooting the new riser (Apecs Prime Med limbs), I suddenly realized that never once did the string even TOUCH my arm (weird, seriously weird).
Now, I can't shoot as well as Mr. McKinney and probably never will. But perhaps, for a person who's form may not be so perfected, the torsional aspects of this riser may actually help with string contact issues (but for someone with a golden repeatable form, perhaps nothing will ever change that). So far, something seems to be preventing string contact shooting this riser. I have only shot it for two mornings however, so it could still happen but I hope not.

I really like what Win is doing with their grips. This one is perfect the way it is currently (takes a lot for me to NOT mess with it). I prefer a lower grip any way (if it's to high it also lifts my shoulder as well).

My friend shoots a TFApecs which I have shot before (again today). I had been impressed with the feel of that riser. It seems to gently "leave the hand without notice (no jump feeling) and then it would just fall and roll. The CXT riser has similar feel (or should I say "lack of feel") coming off the hand. It doesn't "bounce off" or "Pull off". When the bow is shot it's just not in my hand anymore but it definitely seems to have a bit more action than the TFApecs which I like, personally. If I compared them to cars, the TFApecs would be the "Bentley", while the Inno (I still have one) would be the McLaren and the CXT Inno would be (in my opinion) the "Bugatti Veyron". 
Yes, I watch Top Gear, and no, I have never even ridden in any of those cars. 
It's just a simile.

Forgive my praise of this riser, but I really love it (here's a few pics )....
- ps, I had made a new string for it a few days before I got the riser. The blue and yellow string and serving materials you see in the pics are new colors of Majesty (Angel) available this year. There is also a PINK available which I don't have, but it looks cool...

-Brian


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

RaptorX said:


> The blue and yellow string and serving materials you see in the pics are new colors of Majesty (Angel) available this year. There is also a PINK available which I don't have, but it looks cool...
> 
> -Brian


A bit off topic, I ordered some ready-made(I'm too lazy) Majesty in pink. I was confused with there yellow/green color. On your picture the yellow looks a bit green. Would you call it fluo-green?
jx


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

One of my other hobby horses....

There are 3 planes of error in limb alignment.
There are also 3 planes that a aircraft can manuver in.

Yaw. pitch and roll.
Yaw is controlled by lateral adjustment
Pitch is by limb bolt (weight/tiller adjustment)
roll. is well ignored.

For example, CNC machining is only as good as the operator. The program can be exact, the machine precise, but the billet put in slightly off and you have a rubbish bow.

I dont see an reason why a bow would ever be out of alignment. other than to accomodate for sloppy riser manufacture. Afterall Bernadini dont need it.

So why do you, the archer need the Yaw control?
Limb pad angles can be random as the limb bolt adjustment will absorb the slop.
at least W&W have now addressed the Roll adjustment in the riser pocket. Nice touch.


Though, i would have thought that the rocker point would be where the dovetail sits and not further down.

For example, limb wound right in, would push the dovetail in, and wound out would pull the dovetail out. if the rocker point was placed where the dovetail is would mean that no matter where the bolt position was, the limb would rest in the same place?

Still, Alan Wills through Naomi Falkard, stated in Bow International that this bow, shoots 3.5lbs of weight faster than his previous bow.
Someone might correct me here, but it was the 990TX/GMX setup.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

RaptorX,

Those Apecs Prime Limbs look great on the new Riser!!

Stan


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## RaptorX (Dec 28, 2007)

lorteti said:


> A bit off topic, I ordered some ready-made(I'm too lazy) Majesty in pink. I was confused with there yellow/green color. On your picture the yellow looks a bit green. Would you call it fluo-green?
> jx


Yep, well, sorta. I never know whether to call that color yellow or green, but it's both I think. Angel calls it yellow, but (especially in the sun) it looks like a bright flou-yellow/green, something.....:embara:.
Has a greenish hue, that "Fire Engine" yellow/green that almost glows in the daylight....(uh, that would be dayglo, similar to the tennis ball green) gosh, I don't know what to call it? But you're right. I like it actually and on my other bow I twisted it with some black and it looks like a dayglo bumble bee....(yikes).
I didn't have the Pink as a choice when I bought the new colors, but I want some (would go good with the blue riser). Angel's new colors (blue, yellow and pink) when put together looks like the theme of my 3 year old Daughters room.....(baby colors? Maybe not for everyone...).
Perhaps though, since she was born, I'm more partial to those colors (she'll probably out shoot me by the time she's 5 so I should get used to it). 



ksarcher said:


> RaptorX,
> Those Apecs Prime Limbs look great on the new Riser!!
> Stan


Yes they do, Stan! Thanks so much the limbs are brilliant!
Straight as can be, and so smooth and fast!
Thanks so much!
-Brian


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## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

Sorry to revive this thread, but I'm thinking of picking up one of these for myself. 

I'm curious to know if anyone has tried the CXT with non EX limbs.
I just bought Hoyt 990 TX's and I'm loving them, and would hate to buy new limbs because of this riser.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I dont see an reason why a bow would ever be out of alignment. other than to accomodate for sloppy riser manufacture. Afterall Bernadini dont need it.


Perhaps you meant BEST risers instead of Bernardini? Bernardini has alignment adjustment, and possibly one of the best alignment systems I've used IMO... BEST risers - both that I've owned - were perfectly straight and good shooters too. Probably shouldn't have sold mine the more I think about it...

John


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