# 18m indoor target height



## travelbug (Feb 9, 2014)

i want to setup a small range as close as possible to the 18m indoor target range. ive done searches and all i find are disctances and target sizes; i cant seem to get info on the actual height of the target faces for 18m. can anyone help me out?


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## travelbug (Feb 9, 2014)

nevermind found it


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## TargetOz (Jan 16, 2013)

What was the height anyway?


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Shot indoor Nationals this weekend. 4- 3spot, triangular orientation targets installed with single spot up, lower spot down, the horizontal edge between the faces at 4' 3 1/4", and about 4" between the left and right pair of targets.
If one spot target is used, the center of the spot is level with the top spot on the upper three face target, or about 12" above 4' 3 1/4", and level with the bottom two spot on the lower target, or 12" below 4' 3 1/4". The one spots were also spaced 2" either side of center, or 4" between. 
First time this was rigorously applies at a shoot I have attended. We usually put the inside corner of the faces on the 4' 3 1/4" spot and go.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

51.25" is about 130 cm which is the middle mounting height of a single or group of 3 or 4 target faces. 4" which is about 10cm space between left and right side faces is good practice if the target matts and stands allow. However many stands have verticals that can be struck by pass thru arrows. As a result the target face is moved to avoid hitting wooden uprights.


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## travelbug (Feb 9, 2014)

130cm as others mentioned

http://www.worldarchery.org/UserFil...ules/01 C&R Book/Book 2010/2010_Book3_NEW.pdf


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## gonehuntin (Dec 2, 2004)

Serious Fun said:


> 51.25" is about 130 cm which is the middle mounting height of a single or group of 3 or 4 target faces. 4" which is about 10cm space between left and right side faces is good practice if the target matts and stands allow. However many stands have verticals that can be struck by pass thru arrows. As a result the target face is moved to avoid hitting wooden uprights.


Not any more... no moving targets in any way.... adhered to very strictly this past weekend at Indoor Nats....


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Judges have latitude. Sounds like this particular judge chose to not exercise the latitude he had. Either that, or he likes pulling arrows from wooden stands. BTW, Bob Pian is in a position to know the rules.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

gonehuntin said:


> Not any more... no moving targets in any way.... adhered to very strictly this past weekend at Indoor Nats....


I think this is the problem with having so many sites is inconsistency. Target faces shouldn't be moved unless there is a good reason to move them. The problem is that all the venues are different with different targets, stands as well as different lighting and facilities. The biggest inconsistency is people, we are all human after all. 
At the world championship I heard that the time to shoot time was extended due to strong winds. Most would not imagine making such a drastic timing change. However the leadership and archers must have come to the conclusion and that to have a meaningful competition time must be extended. "Strictness" is great when there is no other reason than to be correct. However, all must be measured with providing a fair, effective, efficient and meaningful event for all. I have found that its best to explain and get input from everyone when making changes so that all have a chance to be heard, have issues considered and have questions answered.


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## gonehuntin (Dec 2, 2004)

I think the real problem is that the organization makes changes and the customer base gets to find out after decisions have been made.....

Now that you mention inconsistencies.... a new wrinkle came up this past weekend....

Our kids (as has everyone elses Im sure) prepared hard all winter for indoor nationals.. their parents spent a ton of money in support... the parents sacraficed a whole bunch of their time in getting their kids to and from archery for ongoing lessons, hours and hours of practice... traveled to many local tournaments to gain the necessary experience for this event...they really put their hearts and souls into what they respected as a most honored sport event... it certainly was a very big deal in our world... Indoor Nationals! 

Of course... they were doing what they loved... as we all do in any sport we play in... we do it for the love of the game... first and foremost...but realistically........

So... first... when we arrived, and were advised of the changing of target position without prior notice so that we could acclimate ourselves to that is just one issue.... the disadvantage for a small child with light weight bow to have to aim so high off of the ground for a full event... while others stayed shoulder height for the entire event is yet another issue.... 

*Then.... to be told that there would be no awards or pat on the back of any kind to be given was quite another....*

Many families traveled many miles to attend this event... right at the beginning of each day it was announced to us by the owner of the store that this was a "record attendance" for them for any event they had ever held... (plenty of money was made?)... only to find out that in the spirit of attempting to "eliminate inconsistencies" that all of the host venues were directed by USAA to not provide awards for the particitpants at any of the locations is unbelievable. 

Needless to say.... we had several very disappointed kids that shot their personal best... in their first year of archery... at their first ever national competition....finishing in the top three for their region... and they went home completely emptyhanded. Talk about a bummer.

I am not a believer in giving awards just to give awards... I do believe in recgonizing the kids for their hard work and subsequent successes... in enjoying the past few years of record growth in archery... one would think that the powers that be might be just a little more sensitive to their customer base and what it is that drives them to us. This on top of the decision this year to ask the parents for even MORE money to participate in their organization...

Again... very disappointing on many levels...


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I hear you. Many of us feel many of the same sentiments you've described. I spoke to the mother of one young man who won his division last year. They received a plaque some time later. The young man asked his mom, what's this for? 

A multi venue National Championship is just....well....let me be charitable and call it unwieldy.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I hear you. Many of us feel many of the same sentiments you've described. I spoke to the mother of one young man who won his division last year. They received a plaque some time later. The young man asked his mom, what's this for?
> 
> A multi venue National Championship is just....well....let me be charitable and call it unwieldy.


I fear that if we (We the membership are USAA after all) decide to go to perhaps just one venue per region that provides regional awards and perhaps lower target stands for Cub and Bowman, we will have less participation and be counter to our big tent, all are welcome encouragement. I think a real national championship could be two stages, first a qualifier held in multiple sites, then a championship where the top 16 archers in each category compete in a round robin match competition for the national championship. I think round robin matches for the championship would work for Master, Seniors, Junior and Cadets recurve and compound, but not for bowman, cub, barebow, and traditional. That's where having the single regional championship would be key.

On a personal note, we experienced the lack of awards, lack of attention to detail and customer needs when starting our as a JOAD family. We quickly learned who cared and didn't. The lesson learned led to our family helping to host tourneys so they could be run the way the archers and families deserve.
I suggest to all the new families our there that if you think a tourney can be run better, you are right and you can do it! I speak from personal experience with I say that hosting a quality event is one of the most rewarding things you can do to contribute to the sport we all love and enjoy! Steps are, join USAA, become an active club member, volunteer at tournaments, become a judge and then host a tourney and do it better. Like minded archery families become your friends for life.
I think the idea of low target stands for Bowman and Cub come from the source of all things that are good, Tom Barker.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I have liked the idea of getting all the people vying for a championship in one place. That it has never gained traction with the policy makers escapes me. Your way keeps most revenues to USAA in place and allows for a meaningful competition.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> I think the idea of low target stands for Bowman and Cub come from the source of all things that are good, Tom Barker.


Sounds like one of those ideas that is a nobrainer - well, at least once someone says it out loud. I hadn't though of it before...but, yeah, we don't make small kids use adult sized bows, why should they have to shoot at adult height targets...


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I have liked the idea of getting all the people vying for a championship in one place. That it has never gained traction with the policy makers escapes me. Your way keeps most revenues to USAA in place and allows for a meaningful competition.


I am looking forward to seeing the Easton Foundation SLC in person some day. I understand that it will be big enough to host large indoor and outdoor events. With good airport access, SLC is a great place to host national events and they know how to do international events like World Archery Cups and the Olympics!


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Easiest set-up I've ever seen at 18M on a Whitetail butt is to secure the 4 faces to a piece of cardboard that is cut (round) to the same size as the butt. Then a single screw or nail is used to hold this cardboard at the center of the butt. If needing to move (especially in compound) because of a soft spot you can rotate the butt 15-20 degrees and then reposition the cardboard so the faces are in the same plain/relationship as previously shot.

Regards,

Tom


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

massman said:


> Easiest set-up I've ever seen at 18M on a Whitetail butt is to secure the 4 faces to a piece of cardboard that is cut (round) to the same size as the butt. Then a single screw or nail is used to hold this cardboard at the center of the butt. If needing to move (especially in compound) because of a soft spot you can rotate the butt 15-20 degrees and then reposition the cardboard so the faces are in the same plain/relationship as previously shot.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom


Interesting. I can see rotating around that central pin, but were there other pins to secure the cardboard and keep it from rotating?


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## gonehuntin (Dec 2, 2004)

Serious Fun said:


> I fear that if we (We the membership are USAA after all) decide to go to perhaps just one venue per region that provides regional awards and perhaps lower target stands for Cub and Bowman, we will have less participation and be counter to our big tent, all are welcome encouragement.


I can safely say that the experience of the past weekend didn't do much to make some people (especially the new ones) feel welcome.... its a pretty safe bet that if we continue changing rules and formats without notice and without thoughtful reflection of the impact on ALL of the people that are spending money, time, and effort to participate, if we create an impression of taking away from people for the sake of equality....instead of giving fair and equal return to them as we put our hand out to take more of their money.... there is a real danger that they will reconsider competition archery. 

In this day and age...with so many activities for families to choose from... and also considering the financial difficulities that so many families are facing right now... we would be well served to be mindful that as we grow, and our numbers get bigger and bigger... we should always be considering how we can best insure that those new people feel as they have made the right choice to "join up" in archery... we want everyone to stay around and enjoy being a part of our archery community for years to come!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few comments regarding awards...and I'm going to straddle both side of the debate fence here.

1) National Indoor Regionals are not required to provide awards. Many do because it's not very expensive. Doing first/second/third plaques average 300 dollars for JOAD positions for all categories/classes, and one region (Rio Rancho) handcrafts their awards. 

2) Going to a National Indoor Regional means you're competing for a NATIONAL title, not a regional one. It's nice getting a regional award, but frankly, you're going for something bigger.

3) In prior years, it's not in the bid packet to require the need for regional awards. Some regional tournament directors follow things to the letter. Some regional tournament directors go the extra mile. 

4) It's up to you to decide which region to go hit. If a regional award is that important, then go to a region that presents an award for the region.

5) With regards to getting the National Indoor Championship and National JOAD Indoor Championship plaque after a while - this is normal. It took a good 3 months for Spencer to get his National Indoor Championship plaque when he won it last year. We're so used to long times of delivery that it's expected. 

6) From personal experience, we also learned early on where our archery family felt welcome, and where we felt that we were just a number. In the early days of Spencer's shooting career, we migrated towards places like that. As Spencer's matured as an archer as well as advanced in school grades, his needs have migrated to one of convenience and timing with school. 

7) I'm not really crazy about the modified Mail In Tournament method to this tournament. I realize it's impossible to find one venue that would fit everyone. But - having it on multiple stages with a MQS and a centralized locale might be the way to go in the future.


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## gonehuntin (Dec 2, 2004)

Beastmaster said:


> A few comments regarding awards...and I'm going to straddle both side of the debate fence here.
> 
> 1) National Indoor Regionals are not required to provide awards. Many do because it's not very expensive. Doing first/second/third plaques average 300 dollars for JOAD positions for all categories/classes, and one region (Rio Rancho) handcrafts their awards.
> 
> ...


Boiled down to three simple thoughts....

First, Im guessing that many participants do indeed compete to see where they stack up "in both the top regional and national standards".... naturally expecting that if they do measure up to top performance on regional and/or standards....there will be some kind of recgonizion.... at the very least... if not an award... then a little public recgonizion....a pat on the back would be better than nothing....

Second.....A national competition is supposed to be a very big deal... it should rank just under internation competitions.... and be just as respected.... its format should be structured to represent a national competition... not a mail in.... if you are going to go to the trouble of providing a National competition (and just totally ignore regional consideration)....then at least make it a true national competition environment....have everyone shoot in the same environment... (maybe they should offer a totally seperate regional event as well... complete with awards.) 

No... it is NOT impossible to find a venue big enough to fit everyone.....If other national organizations can come up with a place big enough to handle HUGE crowds... and the manpower to run the thing efficiently... so can anyone else... it is proven every single year at a couple of really respected events (Vegas... NFAA) .....this is not an impossible task....

And third... and maybe most important....no participant and their family should be expected to have to search down a venue that makes them feel welcome... as I have said before, in consideration for the relativity new people... they should not have to become seasoned competitors via a "trial by fire" search to find a reasonable place to compete on any level........ 

All national and regional events (actually this is so for ALL tournaments) should be neutral ground for every single competitor... it is reasonable to expect the host to provide a fair place for everyone to feel comfortable to compete in.... on a level playing field for all competitiors.... with recgonizion for those that produce above average achievements... just as we do in all other archery events.....to insure that the people that they are competing with on a regional and national scale are competing under the same advantages and disadvantages... that is the essence of sport.

As long as it is continued to be spread out all across the country year after year... from one venue to another...(heck...there isnt even any physical inspection of all of the venues to insure even the minimal equal standards are met)...for many participants it quite likely remain the feel and view of a gi-normous mail in... with a National label....


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few replies, interspersed. And, as normal, I will be posting responses that hit on both sides of the fence.

-Steve



gonehuntin said:


> Boiled down to three simple thoughts....
> 
> First, Im guessing that many participants do indeed compete to see where they stack up "in both the top regional and national standards".... naturally expecting that if they do measure up to top performance on regional and/or standards....there will be some kind of recgonizion.... at the very least... if not an award... then a little public recgonizion....a pat on the back would be better than nothing....


Two sides to this. One - you're going after a National Championship. Using a real time set of scores here from 2014 Indoor Nationals, should a 567 (outer 10) for a Cub Compound Male in the West Region (who was first place in his regional) get an award compared to a 596 (outer 10) for the same category/class and they DON'T get an award for the East region, but they wait until the whole tournament is done in hopes they got a placement? 

On the flip side - Should we (as a collective) reward both for their performance? 



> Second.....A national competition is supposed to be a very big deal... it should rank just under internation competitions.... and be just as respected.... its format should be structured to represent a national competition... not a mail in.... if you are going to go to the trouble of providing a National competition (and just totally ignore regional consideration)....then at least make it a true national competition environment....have everyone shoot in the same environment... (maybe they should offer a totally seperate regional event as well... complete with awards.)
> 
> No... it is NOT impossible to find a venue big enough to fit everyone.....If other national organizations can come up with a place big enough to handle HUGE crowds... and the manpower to run the thing efficiently... so can anyone else... it is proven every single year at a couple of really respected events (Vegas... NFAA) .....this is not an impossible task....


Under the current bidding system, USA Archery bids out the process to clubs and organizations. Every National Indoor, National Outdoor, and some USAT events (Like the SoCal Showdown) is actually run by a JOAD club who provides the manpower and other infrastructure for the event. 

USA Archery is NOT in the position (based upon their current structure) to effectively rent out something on the line of South Point, or the Louisville Convention Center, or anything similar, because the bid process pretty much puts the financial bearing onto the club that wins the bid.

So, in order to achieve what you're proposing, the masses have to ask for change to occur. 



> And third... and maybe most important....no participant and their family should be expected to have to search down a venue that makes them feel welcome... as I have said before, in consideration for the relativity new people... they should not have to become seasoned competitors via a "trial by fire" search to find a reasonable place to compete on any level........


Because every venue has a different club or organization running it, there is a distinct difference between some venues versus others. Using these as examples - I know from personal firsthand experience that those that run Rio Rancho (Roadrunner NM JOAD), Ohio Regional and Outdoor Nationals (CJO JOAD), and the Arizona Cup (USA Archery - Arizona and a USAT Qualifier), these locations bend over backwards to ensure that the archers and the spectators have a good time. Others may have a different concept of what a "good time" is for the archers and the spectators. I know that the three locations that I've mentioned have turned out excellent tournaments.



> All national and regional events (actually this is so for ALL tournaments) should be neutral ground for every single competitor... it is reasonable to expect the host to provide a fair place for everyone to feel comfortable to compete in.... on a level playing field for all competitiors.... with recgonizion for those that produce above average achievements... just as we do in all other archery events.....to insure that the people that they are competing with on a regional and national scale are competing under the same advantages and disadvantages... that is the essence of sport.


This is a misnomer. There will always be SOMEONE that has home field advantage. Does this mean that Las Vegas residents have an advantage over everyone else for the Vegas Shoot? Yes. Do people complain about it? No...this is a competition - suck it up and shoot.



> As long as it is continued to be spread out all across the country year after year... from one venue to another...(heck...there isnt even any physical inspection of all of the venues to insure even the minimal equal standards are met)...for many participants it quite likely remain the feel and view of a gi-normous mail in... with a National label....


I will disagree with that statement totally. As one of the officials and judging/technical delegate crew for a lot of various national and regional Indoor tournaments in the past, there are set standards done by FITA for lane size, target height, and other factors. I agree with you that National Indoor is a huge mail in, but there are set standard minimums that the judges strive to ensure that are met. 

Your argument would technically null and void Star FITA registered tournaments that had someone score a national or world record - standards are there, and the judging crew is there to ensure that the standards are set.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> Under the current bidding system, USA Archery bids out the process to clubs and organizations. Every National Indoor, National Outdoor, and some USAT events (Like the SoCal Showdown) is actually run by a JOAD club who provides the manpower and other infrastructure for the event.
> 
> USA Archery is NOT in the position (based upon their current structure) to effectively rent out something on the line of South Point, or the Louisville Convention Center, or anything similar, because the bid process pretty much puts the financial bearing onto the club that wins the bid.


I was under the impression that the JOAD Outdoor Nationals in Sacramento were run by the convention and visitors burro or some such, in association with a local club, rather than just by a local club that bid on the event? I don't recall the details, I just remember being surprised by a non-archery organization seeming to have been behind it.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> I was under the impression that the JOAD Outdoor Nationals in Sacramento were run by the convention and visitors burro or some such, in association with a local club, rather than just by a local club that bid on the event? I don't recall the details, I just remember being surprised by a non-archery organization seeming to have been behind it.


You are able to partner with other entities. I believe that CJO partners with the Butler County Visitors and Convention Bureau to put on Outdoor Nationals. Liz or Jim could answer that in greater detail, but Butler County does help coordinate a lot of stuff with the club.

-Steve


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## gonehuntin (Dec 2, 2004)

_I will disagree with that statement totally. As one of the officials and judging/technical delegate crew for a lot of various national and regional Indoor tournaments in the past, there are set standards done by FITA for lane size, target height, and other factors. I agree with you that National Indoor is a huge mail in, but there are set standard minimums that the judges strive to ensure that are met. 

Your argument would technically null and void Star FITA registered tournaments that had someone score a national or world record - standards are there, and the judging crew is there to ensure that the standards are set. _

Not all Star Fita's that are offered are put forth as a National event.....while they are advertised on USAA's website....and their purpose is to make their score eligible for National records.... they are not necessiarly touted as a sanctioned National competition for the purpose of declaring a National Champion...

As to your view of the Home Field Advantage.....I really dont see much of a "Home field advantage"... in an indoor archery venue... as long as all judges and hosts can be relied upon to maintain the same "set" standards....(without any monitoring... that's a BIG if) 

In a mail-in format (USAA Indoor Nationals) .....the missing ingredient that you cant provide when everyone is in a different location is the actual face to face competition with ones own peers... and all that that brings to the game.... 

Really... all that I was trying to express here in the beginning was.... I struggle to see the value in denying any competitior recgonizion for their hard earned success, on ANY competition level....if we feel a need to equal things in a competition environment for all, lets do it in a spirit of celebration for a "Job well done" and provide recgonizion for success.... for all of the venues that voluntarily bid to hold this event...

Playing the devil's advocate here... how come we only wiped out the regional award... why not the whole award system.... starting with Nationals... all the way down to the JOAD pins.... that way no one would feel slighted when they show up somewhere and others have lanyards loaded with pins... and Gold, Silver, Bronze JOAD award pins on their quivers and jackets, etc.....and they do not........

Denying people the reward for work well done for the sake of insuring no one feels slighted (standardizing) is like taking 3 giant steps backwards....

Maybe we should focus on insuring that we provide the hosts of the national events with what they need in order that ALL hosts will be able to offer the earned awards for the regional part.....awards that we all expect in ALL other sport activities... THAT would be equal... right?

Fianlly... the last I have to say on this.....I bought my kids a picture frame... a package of paper certificates.... and then designed a little "atta boy/girl" on the certificate.. printed it out... put it in the frame... and gave them out at our weekly club meeting....recgonizing their achievements... cost me a total of a whopping big 12 Dollars....... so simple...

Sure went a long way toward a warm and uplifting moment for those that worked so hard... and their so supportive parents....

and what from the others, you ask? All the others said "wow... how cool... Im gonna work hard next year to get one of those"!

I have had my say.... we at my club will move on now....each of us are entitled to our own viewpoint.... I was just expressing mine here on behalf of my JOAD kids....I felt like I owed them that....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

TargetOz said:


> What was the height anyway?


center of target butt=130 CM

single spot-high position 160CM max
bottom single spot 100 CM at least


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I hear you. Many of us feel many of the same sentiments you've described. I spoke to the mother of one young man who won his division last year. They received a plaque some time later. The young man asked his mom, what's this for?
> 
> A multi venue National Championship is just....well....let me be charitable and call it unwieldy.


years ago the North Region gave medals for those who shot the North region and lived in the North Region. Norm Graham gave VENUE awards for the JOADS who shot at MSU. back in the days when the only JOAD line was Friday Night-he would give the awards out between the 9 AM and 1PM NAA event line the next day. Over the years, JOADS shot at all different times and while he still gave awards, they no longer could be given out at the venue but were mailed out. Our last year at MSU, Ian won the Bowman event but a kid was shooting the JOAD event the last line on Sunday.

we did JOAD venue awards at Fairfield a couple years-this year we had to add a second line due to lots of kids from the South Region coming to Cincinnati rather than going to Georgia so liz decided not to do the awards this year-after all its a national tournament-just like outdoors were sometimes 100 kids are competing for 3 awards.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> You are able to partner with other entities. I believe that CJO partners with the Butler County Visitors and Convention Bureau to put on Outdoor Nationals. Liz or Jim could answer that in greater detail, but Butler County does help coordinate a lot of stuff with the club.
> 
> -Steve


yes Butler County (Stephanie and Jason are well known to the USAA staff) are our partners in bot the outdoor and indoor. Great people to work with-they found us a much bigger venue for indoor nationals next year


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Here is a good item from book two:

“7.1.1.4. The height of the centers of the target faces in a line of target butts should look straight at all times.”
Outdoors the ground can vary and a target here and there can be in a relative “hole” In such cases the “…target faces in a line of target butts should look straight at all times.” That means the target face may not be at 130cm above the ground at a particular place. A stand might need to be shimmed to get the target faces to look in line. I think this shows that the rules best applied with the intent of the rule in mind.

A lot of the rules are based on intent more than literal interpretation. For instance, the 10 seconds to get to the line has been extended when a muddy field made it challenging to get to the line in 10 seconds. I would say that extra time to get to the line would not take away from a world record score. However shooting at 65 meters vs 70 would likely not be applicable for a record. 

Another circumstance might be non-compliant target faces. If all the scoring areas of the faces were uniformly to large, the competition could still take place since all have the same advantage. However a record could not shot. On the other hand if the faces were too small a record could be shot because is more difficult to shoot a record on a smaller than spec face. I would think the same would apply with regards to the 80 cm shooting line spacing, about 32”. Many ranges have a 24” per archer spacing. I would suggest that a world record shot on a smaller than specified space would still be a record because there is no advantage to shooting in a smaller space.

The rules have several purposes, primarily fairness so that one has an advantage over another and effectiveness, where, as an example, there is a shooting time limit so that the competition can end at a reasonable time to be able to make it to the airport in time.

Oddly enough I find that archers and coaches can be some of the most punitive when it comes to rules application. The joint information from the Coaches and Judge committee is a great example sharing and collaborating to be helpful. http://www.worldarchery.org/HOME/Rules/Info-to-Coaches-Judges


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

As a comparison and FYI - Tulare West Regional did not give out awards to the JOAD kids. 103 kids registered and shot from 4pm to 8.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The lack of venue awards may or may not affect JOAD families perception of the event. Over the years, the feedback I've gotten is that the event didn't feel all that different from our state championship. There wasn't a big tournament feel. It wasn't inspirational, or aspirational. Our national championship should be a celebration of archers. When you get to the site, there should be a buzz. Fathers, mothers and their kids should be shown the best of the best in our sport. It should be big, bold and a showcase for USAA.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I think all can be solved by requiring JOADs awards and raising the entry fees to fund the JOAD awards. Are families willing to pay higher entry fees?


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

If the idea is to maximize entries and openness by using the regional sites, why couldn't you use some sort of qualification or flighting approach where the highest x number of scorers per age group and category move on to a final championship tournament at one site, while the non-qualifiers finish at the local round? Even the people who miss the cut get a national rank, starting the spot after the cut.....eg, 17th, 33rd, 65th....in order of scores. The championship could be straight to knockout, a further 600 + knockout, or even another 1200. That gives you your rank within the top 16, 32, 64, whatever. Modified FITA, in a way. Regional access + a controlled national championship with the drama of direct competition at one place.

Far as awards are concerned, there should be a consistent, publicized standard. If people who go to one region get something thoughtfully handcarved people going to another location should get at least a certificate. At the regional or national level of competition, I think there should be something at the other end reflecting the seriousness of the event. If you'd get a bigger "something" for some local or state tourney then the national event is not being given sufficient gravitas. It's not just the professionalism of the event and the quality of the competition, it's the idea that winning that event (even if just a regional) is a big deal. If the best person at the site gets nothing because all that matters is national rank then I think you defeat some of the point of the inclusiveness incentive. You might as well have everyone in one place then.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Bob Pian has forwarded a similar idea. It is excellent and deserves to be implemented.


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