# Custom recurve suggestions



## Edizkan

AT folk;

I need suggestions based on personal experience, both good and bad. I've been shooting recurves for a long time now, but have been in the low end, mass produced bows that are basically all look like manufactured by the same Asian company (you know where I am going with that, so I'll stop right there).

I haven't shot too many custom recurves other than Black Widow and Bob Lee, and recently got a Black Widow. I love it. Bob Lee, was okay. Nothing wrong, shoots good, but wasn't a love at first sight like Black Widow. Now I am eyeing for another recurve to add my inventory and boy are there so many great bowyers. Here is what I want:

I want a hunting takedown recurve, not a target. So it shouldn't be longer than 64", ideally 60-62". 
I am comfortable 50# to 60# draw weight @28".
Performance of the bow - smoothness, speed, noise are most important about the bow than the looks. But hey, we don't want an ugly duck either, right? 
A still in business bowyer/company where I can send the bow for refinishing or get additional limbs.

Blacktail bows look amazing, and people seem to really like them. How do they stack up to other custom recurve bows as far as performance goes? Let's say them vs Blak Widow and Bob Lee (2 bows I can relate to). I've been researching them and other companies like Schafer Silvertip, Stalker, Great Plains, Wapiti, Blackriver, Acadian, Border, Foley, etc. Any information on those? I know Bighorn as a company doesn't exist anymore, but the bows are out there. Would you buy them? 

Thanks in advance


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## Easykeeper

Well, I've never had neither a Black Widow or a Bob Lee, but I own several Blacktails and Silvertips. I can't compare them to the BW or BL, but I can say that either a Blacktail or Schafer Silvertip is a very fine bow indeed.

I could say the same thing about my Wes Wallace, Dale Dye, McCullough, Rose Oak, or Robertson recurves.

I prefer the Blacktail over anything I've tried, you might not. There are so many quality bows being made that it really just comes down to personal preference. I don't think there's much performance difference (speed) between the top of the line bows, unless you throw Border in the mix. Border definitely is the performance leader at this point, and from what I've seen they make a beautiful bow too.

There are so many nice bows out there I doubt anybody has tried them all. I'd go out on a limb and say you really can't go wrong with any of them, but the other side of that coin is that even though it's beautiful and performs great it might not be for you. The grip can make or break a bow and it's tough to judge that from photos.

I always say the best way to explore customs is in the classifieds section. Before I ever ordered a new Blacktail or Silvertip I owned one or two of each that I found in the classifieds. Buy used, then you can sell or trade without loosing much if any money. Buy new and decide it's not for you and you will lose up to 50% when you sell it. If and when you find the "right one", then order one just the way you want it.


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## Greencb

Go to a Trad event and shoot them all is the best you can do. Bow and Bowyer likes and dislikes are very personal. If you cant do that buy used on the forums and try them out and re sale until you find the ringer. 


Quietest recurve bows Ive personally shot- DAS anything that is tuned
Fastest to date WF-19 with Dryad Limbs
My favorite wood or "trad" recurve is a Bear TD
Best metal hunting bows to date- WF-19 or DAS Tribute 
Best shooting wood or Trad longbow- Fox TC or A&H

I have shot most that you have listed "have not shot blacktail or Border" I have a Border on order. It would be difficult to buy a bad bow from any of the folks you have listed. I would include Dryad in your test list as well as Fox Archery. I dont know how old you are but as someone who is 40 I am now buying bows that I want to shoot in the later years. Lower poundage would help with that, just something to think about.


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## bushcraftbrandon

Dan Toelke. Period. Best bows I've ever shot. Quietest too. http://montanabows.blogspot.com/?m=1

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## keb

Stalker stickbows


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## camo_deerslayer

I shoot Stalker Stickbows!!


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## JParanee

There are so many great bows out there that it's a very hard call 

I have bob Lee , widow , Silvertip , fedora and all kinds of Ilf setups 

I have shot the rest you mentioned also 

All very nice 

But if I had to pick one 

Border


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## FeatherFletch

I have a Toelke Chinook in the Mail right now. I just bought it from the classified here on AT, can't wait. I did a lot of reading and didn't read anything bad about Toelke. There are a bunch of talented bowyers out there now. Good luck on your search.


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## Edizkan

I was hoping you'd respond. I appreciate your expertise and experience with traditional archery.

I am trying to get either bows -Blacktail and Schafer, used and unfortunately they don't come up as often as BWs, and they are definitely not that cheap when they come around. Someone is selling a Schafer on stickbow website and he is asking $650, which is the best deal I found around. The only problem is, the bow is over 60#. I can handle that weight -but that doesn't mean I will truly enjoy it. RMS has a couple of Blacktails, and only one is the newer Elite VL, which they ask $945 for. I guess that's why I'm asking around first to find out which bow I can drop the money and don't have to sell it in 3-4 months. But from what I see, and as you said, I probably won't have to wait weeks for any of these bows to sell if I don't like it.

Thanks



Easykeeper said:


> Well, I've never had neither a Black Widow or a Bob Lee, but I own several Blacktails and Silvertips. I can't compare them to the BW or BL, but I can say that either a Blacktail or Schafer Silvertip is a very fine bow indeed.
> 
> I could say the same thing about my Wes Wallace, Dale Dye, McCullough, Rose Oak, or Robertson recurves.
> 
> I prefer the Blacktail over anything I've tried, you might not. There are so many quality bows being made that it really just comes down to personal preference. I don't think there's much performance difference (speed) between the top of the line bows, unless you throw Border in the mix. Border definitely is the performance leader at this point, and from what I've seen they make a beautiful bow too.
> 
> There are so many nice bows out there I doubt anybody has tried them all. I'd go out on a limb and say you really can't go wrong with any of them, but the other side of that coin is that even though it's beautiful and performs great it might not be for you. The grip can make or break a bow and it's tough to judge that from photos.
> 
> I always say the best way to explore customs is in the classifieds section. Before I ever ordered a new Blacktail or Silvertip I owned one or two of each that I found in the classifieds. Buy used, then you can sell or trade without loosing much if any money. Buy new and decide it's not for you and you will lose up to 50% when you sell it. If and when you find the "right one", then order one just the way you want it.


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## Edizkan

Interesting bows there. I've heard of DAS before but not WF-19. I found out that I like the traditional wooden bows better. ILF bows are definitely not my thing because I wouldn't know how to tune them, and there is no pro-shop in or around my state that is experienced with ILF bows. I had a PSE Ghost with ILF limbs, and ended up giving it to a good friend of mine because nobody knew how to tune it, nor there is good enough information on the web about them either. 

I am 43, and for now I am in the best strength of my life. My compound bows are all 70 pounders, no sweat and I can shoot an 85 lb compound. For recurves, I am trying to stay in the mid 50s. 



Greencb said:


> Go to a Trad event and shoot them all is the best you can do. Bow and Bowyer likes and dislikes are very personal. If you cant do that buy used on the forums and try them out and re sale until you find the ringer.
> 
> 
> Quietest recurve bows Ive personally shot- DAS anything that is tuned
> Fastest to date WF-19 with Dryad Limbs
> My favorite wood or "trad" recurve is a Bear TD
> Best metal hunting bows to date- WF-19 or DAS Tribute
> Best shooting wood or Trad longbow- Fox TC or A&H
> 
> I have shot most that you have listed "have not shot blacktail or Border" I have a Border on order. It would be difficult to buy a bad bow from any of the folks you have listed. I would include Dryad in your test list as well as Fox Archery. I dont know how old you are but as someone who is 40 I am now buying bows that I want to shoot in the later years. Lower poundage would help with that, just something to think about.


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## Edizkan

Yes, Border does come up a lot for praise. Finding them used for a good price is a different issue. If I can, I definitely want to try one. 




JParanee said:


> There are so many great bows out there that it's a very hard call
> 
> I have bob Lee , widow , Silvertip , fedora and all kinds of Ilf setups
> 
> I have shot the rest you mentioned also
> 
> All very nice
> 
> But if I had to pick one
> 
> Border


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## Edizkan

Any info on Wes Wallace? There is one available that looks really nice.


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## marcelxl

Dryad was my first "step up" in quality and performance, I have the ILF ACS in bow longbow and recurve flavours and I can't say anything but good things.

So much so that now I am in the market for a "legal" competition bow I went straight back and should have that one early in 2017.

I have drawn and shot other high end bows and been left smiling and maybe a little disappointed sometimes but it's very subjective. I can't and won't knock anybodies work out there…..I shot with the owner of Cari-bow and saw and sampled his wares and I believe them to be the absolute nicest looking bows out there as well as excellent shooters but I now compare all to my Dryads and so far I haven't shot anything that is that much better if at all…….

I would love to one day attend one of the big events stateside to really have a good look out there at high level customs to sample each one in a configuration that suits me rather than some opportunist, chance shots of a bow on the range!


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## vtbowhntr

I love Zipper Bows. Bill and Tracey are great people and the bows are even better. Oh and the bows are beautiful


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## GEREP

Here's the way I see it. Some will agree, some will not.

First, if you're looking for eye candy, there are about as many quality candidates as there are bowyers. It's all personal preference in terms of what you find attractive and what you are willing to spend. You'll know what you like when you see it.

Second, if you are shopping the used market, I no longer consider any bow "custom." It might have been "custom" for someone but it's just another production bow for subsequent owners.

Third, if you are expecting a "custom" bow to significantly improve your shooting long term, you will probably be disappointed. Once the initial euphoria wears off, you are still the same archer you were before you bought the pretty "custom." 

Lastly, if you are talking about true customization to you and your particular style of shooting, you might just find that some production models, particularly ILF models, can be much more "custom" than the customs. 

Most custom bows are just production bows that you get to pick the woods that are used and the draw weight. Aside from that, it's the same bow, and the same design as every other one that came out of that form. To me, it like making a vanilla layer cake with vanilla frosting. You can make each layer of the cake as well as the frosting any color you want by adding food coloring, but at the end of the day, it's still a vanilla layer cake with vanilla frosting and that's the way it will taste. 

KPC


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## huntergreene

I love my Stalker !!!


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## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> I was hoping you'd respond. I appreciate your expertise and experience with traditional archery.
> 
> I am trying to get either bows -Blacktail and Schafer, used and unfortunately they don't come up as often as BWs, and they are definitely not that cheap when they come around. Someone is selling a Schafer on stickbow website and he is asking $650, which is the best deal I found around. The only problem is, the bow is over 60#. I can handle that weight -but that doesn't mean I will truly enjoy it. RMS has a couple of Blacktails, and only one is the newer Elite VL, which they ask $945 for. I guess that's why I'm asking around first to find out which bow I can drop the money and don't have to sell it in 3-4 months. But from what I see, and as you said, I probably won't have to wait weeks for any of these bows to sell if I don't like it.
> 
> Thanks


That's the problem with custom bows and the used market, they are often a heavier weight than most people want. If one does show up in a moderate draw weight it's gone fast. And yes, Blacktails and Silvertips are never cheap.

Blacktail has an "in stock" page on their website. They are new bows but there is no wait. What shows up is a crap shoot, there seem to be a lot of the Sitka series which are shorter overall than the Elites that I have. 

You mentioned Wes Wallace. I have a 64" one piece Mentor recurve and it's a very nice bow. There are some similarities between the Wallace and Blacktail bows, the bowyers had some shared experience a ways back. In my opinion the Blacktail is a more elegant bow than the Mentor with a little nicer feeling at the shot. I'm splitting hairs there though, I have no intent to sell my Wallace recurve even though I don't shoot it very often.


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## Edizkan

Some interesting info. Thanks.

I think "custom" term for a used bow still applies. I haven't come across with a mass produced bow that comes with different grip options (low, med, high) and definitely not with the amount of wood choices. When I search for a custom bow I can eliminate a lot of variables. For example, I like a heavier bow (at hand, not draw weight). Some wood specimens are definitely heavier than others. Most exotic woods are very dense and heavy and they make excellent dead in hand shooters. I have worked in a big hunting retail store's archery department and shot almost every commercially mass produced bow and none have specs I like that the custom bows have. 

I like the concept of ILF but as I mentioned in my previous response, I have no resource in and around my state to help me setup and guide. If there was and I could get educated about it, it's not a brainer. There are so many limb options out there for ILF bows, I can try out as much as I want without breaking the bank.



GEREP said:


> Here's the way I see it. Some will agree, some will not.
> 
> First, if you're looking for eye candy, there are about as many quality candidates as there are bowyers. It's all personal preference in terms of what you find attractive and what you are willing to spend. You'll know what you like when you see it.
> 
> Second, if you are shopping the used market, I no longer consider any bow "custom." It might have been "custom" for someone but it's just another production bow for subsequent owners.
> 
> Third, if you are expecting a "custom" bow to significantly improve your shooting long term, you will probably be disappointed. Once the initial euphoria wears off, you are still the same archer you were before you bought the pretty "custom."
> 
> Lastly, if you are talking about true customization to you and your particular style of shooting, you might just find that some production models, particularly ILF models, can be much more "custom" than the customs.
> 
> Most custom bows are just production bows that you get to pick the woods that are used and the draw weight. Aside from that, it's the same bow, and the same design as every other one that came out of that form. To me, it like making a vanilla layer cake with vanilla frosting. You can make each layer of the cake as well as the frosting any color you want by adding food coloring, but at the end of the day, it's still a vanilla layer cake with vanilla frosting and that's the way it will taste.
> 
> KPC


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## GEREP

*"I have worked in a big hunting retail store's archery department and shot almost every commercially mass produced bow and none have specs I like that the custom bows have."* 

Such as? Aside from cosmetics, can you be a little more specific in terms of the exact specs you are looking for?

This is not an attempt to put you on the spot, it's just a matter of trying to find out the specific features you are looking for.

KPC


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## GEREP

*"I think "custom" term for a used bow still applies. I haven't come across with a mass produced bow that comes with different grip options (low, med, high) and definitely not with the amount of wood choices. When I search for a custom bow I can eliminate a lot of variables. For example, I like a heavier bow (at hand, not draw weight)."*

Yes, I fully understand what you are saying. My point was that in order to find those things on the used "custom" market, it's really no different that seeking those same things out on the new production market. Unless it was made specifically for you and your particular shooting characteristics, it's just a used bow that was made custom for someone else.

KPC


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## crazyhoyt

Big Jim Desert Bighorn. In my experience shooting different types of custom jobs Iv found it's mostly personal preference. If I had to choose a custom bow it would be a Desert Bighorn, Or a Dale Dye Good medicine.
I can't speak for Blacktail as Iv never had the pleasure, but would sure like to try one some day.


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## Chris Hill

If you want a nice bow that keeps its value and shoots great and easy to find used and has great customer service and easy to send back for refinishing I would go Black Widow all day long. 

If you want a super high performance bow that is extremely well built and had has great customer service but would be costly to send back for finishing I would get a Border Covert Hunter. 

Blacktail bows are gorgeous and well made but not any different than Fox or Wes Wallace and Stalker. They all feel and look the same.


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## keb

The stalker improved my shooting allot, had to do with his grip.


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## grantmac

I like the concept of ILF but as I mentioned in my previous response, I have no resource in and around my state to help me setup and guide. If there was and I could get educated about it, it's not a brainer. There are so many limb options out there for ILF bows, I can try out as much as I want without breaking the bank.[/QUOTE]

It's like tuning a regular bow just easier.


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## camo_deerslayer

keb said:


> The stalker improved my shooting allot, had to do with his grip.


I agree. I like the way the arrow lays basically on my hand. It's like simply pointing your finger at the target!


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## Edizkan

Hi Gerep; all very good questions, and I truly have one answer, but it's a long one (because I like to write long paragraphs)

Maybe we are over emphasizing on what custom for an archer is. There are not too many variables in traditional archery -which here we narrowed it down to recurves, and specifically takedowns with static limbs lets say. When a buyer orders a custom bow, other than the wood choices the options are: 2 types of finger placement -split and 3 under that defines the tiller, 3 types of grip styles -low, med, high, a fair amount of riser and limb lengths (48" to 66") and the remaining is cosmetics. So someone like myself, 5'10", with a 28" dl, (bow lengths 58" to 64") split finger shooter, standard grip... I can find a lot of bows that'd fit me with those basic specs both custom and commercial. However, those specs don't make a bow perform better or worse alone. We are undermining the value of exotic woods by saying they are just eye candy. There is a significant difference in the density and weight of Desert Ironwood, or Kingwood vs the common woods that are found in commercial bows. The heaviest commercial bow I handled is probably the PSE Mustang (which is a really nice bow btw), which uses black walnut and cherry. Both woods are in the mid to upper 30 lbs/ft3 average weight while the Desert Ironwood my Black Widow is made from is in the 70 lbs/ft3 average weight. Such density and weight in a riser definitely makes difference in the performance end. So if I find a used bow that is within the specs I want (above) and made with bubinga or cocobolo, it's not just for looks, but it's also performance wise fits custom to me. 

As far as the commercial metal risers with ILF limbs go, that's a totally different animal, and it's a mental choice, which I have nothing against. I am currently in the market for a wooden bow, made by a bowyer custom for someone else, that also fits me too.




GEREP said:


> *"I think "custom" term for a used bow still applies. I haven't come across with a mass produced bow that comes with different grip options (low, med, high) and definitely not with the amount of wood choices. When I search for a custom bow I can eliminate a lot of variables. For example, I like a heavier bow (at hand, not draw weight)."*
> 
> Yes, I fully understand what you are saying. My point was that in order to find those things on the used "custom" market, it's really no different that seeking those same things out on the new production market. Unless it was made specifically for you and your particular shooting characteristics, it's just a used bow that was made custom for someone else.
> 
> KPC


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## Edizkan

* Blacktail has an "in stock" page on their website. They are new bows but there is no wait. What shows up is a crap shoot, there seem to be a lot of the Sitka series which are shorter overall than the Elites that I have. *

Don't I know that... hahaha. I feel like a cat staring at liver on a butchers window when I go to that site. Now, there is a egg or chicken debate about the riser lengths. A shorter riser will use a longer and more working limb vs longer riser will give better view, shorter and faster, but non-smooth stacking limb... Seems like the difference between the Sitka and Elite is 3". Black Widow PSA and Blacktail Sitka have same size 16" risers. I haven't tried 18" or 19" riser, but I assume I'll like them even better since it means more wood material and heavier the risers are, with more opening in the shelf window.

The Wes Wallace bow that was listed here is sold btw


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## BarneySlayer

I think GEREP summed it up well, from a functional standpoint. A lot of the custom bows are more of 'artisan' bows, in that they are hand crafted, and made with a lot of care. That's definitely worth something, and you definitely pay for it. Some of the 'custom' bows can be highly customized, from a functional standpoint, but in the best case scenario, they might rival the customization capability of an ILF aluminum riser. And, if you want to take advantage of that, you better have an idea of what you want those customized parameters to be.

If you want a work of art, or you know of a 'custom' bow that you just groove with, that's a pretty darn fine thing. If you want to buy and sell and try things out, for the experience, or as a means to find what works well for you, that's good too. But, if you want to customize a bow to what works best for you, the first trick is to find out what works for you, and an ILF rig is probably one of the most direct steps on the fastest route, because you can modify/adjust so much of it to see what really gives you what you want, in terms of grip, mass, balance, limb combinations, stacking behavior, whatever.


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## GEREP

Thanks Barney, you probably said it clearer than I did.

KPC


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## JParanee

You certainly can't go wrong with a custom ILF rig


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## Edizkan

I don't understand the ILF pitch on a custom recurve question on specific bowyers, not "Would you recommend machine cut aluminum bows and their fits to everything -including moms washing machine, limbs mainly made in Korea or China over a bunch of fine American bowyers I asked a question about?" but if you guys are all satisfied with high fives, can we get back to the topic? 

Thanks


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## JParanee

I shoot a bolt down but Ilf customs can be wood just like any other custom 

Ilf is a limb attachment method .... that's it 

Here is an Ilf custom CH from Border 







Here is a bolt down version 

I prefer the bolt down 

6



You really can't tell the difference between the two in the looks department 

What people were trying to tell you is that there are many different high end bows out there and that Ilf is just a way to hook limbs to a riser 

They can look the same as any classic wood recurve 

What they were also trying to say is that many custom bows are built on an Ilf platform 

Morrison , dryad , border , acs , Bigfoot , etc 

What they were also trying to say is that on average most of the bows you mentioned widow etc are old limb designs that do not perform as well as today's better limb options and many of those options could be using an Ilf limb mounting platform 

I prefer a bolt down Border CH made to my specifications 









But if I were not shooting that bow I would be shooting a custom Riser with a set of Hex 7.5 Ilf limbs


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## Edizkan

I understood what they are saying, but it didn't seem like my not preferring ILF over static understood clearly. I've heard nothing but good things about the Border bows. If I could afford one, I would like to buy one. But isn't Black Douglas accept static limbs or ilf?


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## Edizkan

Also, since I hunt with compound bows, and they are nothing but adjustable and customizable, I'm trying to have a bow that's adjusted once and done as far as the traditional bows go. The main reason I'm not going with one piece recurves is, if the limb gets damaged or twisted significantly, the whole bow is gone (I had a Bear Super Kodiak, and that's what happened). With takedown, I can replace the limbs if they get damaged.


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## Edizkan

Going back to the original topic, I've had 7 commercial bows and weren't happy with them. Sold 4, gave away 3 as gifts. One of them was an ILF, one was an aluminum riser, others wood. I am tired of dumping money in to cheaply made, mass produced, machine cut bows. However, I am also cautious about spending a lot of money on bows I don't know too much about, that I don't have any experience with. So, this topic is also some kind of a market research for myself. I'm trying to find out what people prefer and what they are willing to buy if I decide the bow is not for me and sell it without losing too much money. When I search these forums for the names I mentioned in my original post, they don't come up too often and if they do, some don't last couple of hours. I hope this clears out the air a little bit. 

By the way, the only used Border bow I can find is this one: http://www.rmsgear.com/bows/recurves/?brand=158448 which is $1250 for 2 sets of limbs. 

Since I mentioned RMS Gear, looks like they have their own riser/limb combinations called Hawk. Any experience on those?


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## BarneySlayer

Edizkan said:


> I don't understand the ILF pitch on a custom recurve question on specific bowyers, not "Would you recommend machine cut aluminum bows and their fits to everything -including moms washing machine, limbs mainly made in Korea or China over a bunch of fine American bowyers I asked a question about?" but if you guys are all satisfied with high fives, can we get back to the topic?
> 
> Thanks


It goes to what you mean by 'custom'.

Now we explicitly know what you're talking about. That's fine. 

I like my Border Covert Hunter bolt down. I had it customized to fit my specific requirements. If you give them specifics, they can do the same for you, as much as any bowyer who works in the realm of wood risers can, so far as I know. If you like a smooth draw, and the ability to chuck some pretty hefty arrows compared to the holding weight at pretty reasonable speeds, and know specifically what you want in a riser, in terms of weight, grip shape, sight window, cut past center, as well as various possible insert options, they might be worth checking out. They are made in Scotland, which disqualifies them from the American Bowyer group, but even still, I'd put them on the list for consideration.


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## BarneySlayer

Edizkan said:


> Going back to the original topic, I've had 7 commercial bows and weren't happy with them. Sold 4, gave away 3 as gifts. One of them was an ILF, one was an aluminum riser, others wood. I am tired of dumping money in to cheaply made, mass produced, machine cut bows.


What did you have, and what didn't you like about each of them. Some of the guys here might have some common experience and be able to better point you in directions. Without specific information you're going to get a list that'll only grow, and you'll have not a whole lot more than a random sampling of those bows which are already popular and relatively known. It's very much a matter of personal fit and subjective appreciation. Some bows I like, others don't, and vice versa. The bow I really like seems to be pretty good for me, for what I do with it, but that doesn't mean it will make somebody else happy, or it will even work well for them.


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## sawtoothscream

I bought, sold and traded many bows. Had a few pretty bows with fancy woods. Still own one but ilf is what I'm liking the most. Stupid simple to tune, can change the grip to find what I like and limbs all over. 

That said, if I was going to buy a American made non ilf, I would probably get a dryad Orion. Loved the epic limbs I had for my titan, imagine the ACS would be better then those.


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## TGbow

Gerep makes some really good points. I've owned several custom bows in the past.
Today, I would not buy any bow without the option to return if I didn't like the bow.
What one person likes another may not. Never owned a Blacktail or Black Widow. Without naming the custom bows I've owned or shot, I will say that you come to a point to where you are paying for cosmetic appeal and not shootability.
I now have a Samick Sage and 2 Bear Grizzlies of the mid 70s era, one of which I bought new when I was in high school. The bows I have shoot as good and better in some cases as custom bows.
I say all that to say...buy what you want but with the possibility you may not care for what you get if you cant shoot the bow or try it before you buy.
It's personal preference but I hate to see somebody stuck with a $800 bow that really dont fit them from a personal standpoint.
Nothing wrong with a custom bow but you can get shootability without the price tag if you prefer.
There are some bowyers out there that will take returns if you're not pleased with your purchase.


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## bjjofco

I have a bighorn ,they are good shooters . Check out Belcher bows. Good looking but shoot Evan better

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## 47909Hunter

Interesting thread.

I'm also about to purchase a non-mass-produced ("custom") traditional bow, and for me it's just a mental/emotional connection with something "artisan produced" vs. mass produced. Yes, I know the people at for example Bear or Martin hand-build the bows, but still...


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## OKArcherynut1

Palmer custom recurve. Mike has a new limb design that is one of the smoothest out there.


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## Edizkan

During researching the custom bows and bowyers, I came across with the 50s style recurves and found them to be quite interesting. Their grip and riser length are similar to longbows but curved instead. People seem to like them a lot. There are current manufacturers who still offer these 50s style bows, like Toelke, Caribow, Kota, even Black Widow... Yestereday I missed 2 Toelkes, in great shape while I was researching for 3 piece takedowns.

I'll keep this thread open, so we can learn more about these great bowyers.


----------



## Easykeeper

I've always had a soft spot for 50s style recurves. I've had two, a Robertson Peregrine and a McCullough '59er. The '59er in particular is based on the 1959 Bear Kodiak, probably the quintessential bow of that genre.

I still have the McCullough, if you can find one I'd buy it fast. They are a bit of a cult bow and hard to find since he is no longer making them (to the best of my knowledge).

Add the Fox Breed to your list, I've never had one but have read very positive things on that 50's style recurve.

And of course there is the original, Bear reintroduced the 1959 Kodiak a few years ago so you can buy a brand new one from them.


----------



## Edizkan

Easykeeper, thanks for the suggestions, I will definitely look for them as well. I found a Great Northern Ghost, have you heard about those?


----------



## ChadMR82

Big Jim just starting making a 50s style recurve. You can email him for more information. I think he calls it the Mountaineer. He had it on his FB page last week


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan, I also have a Black Widow (PCH) that I like. Ever think of trying out a different style of widow? Or a different handle (like the Asbel)? They have a test drive program. Just a thought. Another thought is a Bear T/D. I know, not a "custom" bow, but worth a test drive IMHO.


----------



## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> Edizkan, I also have a Black Widow (PCH) that I like. Ever think of trying out a different style of widow? Or a different handle (like the Asbel)? They have a test drive program. Just a thought. Another thought is a Bear T/D. I know, not a "custom" bow, but worth a test drive IMHO.


I am thinking of looking into the BW PSR. However, there are so many options -which is good, I am hunting for the best deal I can find around. Right now it feels like a toss between a Black Widow PSR and a Toelke Chinook for 50's style, and a toss between a Border Black Douglas and either a Schafer Silvertip or a Blacktail Elite VL for 3 piece takedowns. As most repeated here, I don't think I can go wrong with any. I am very impressed with the recreation of the Bear 59 Kodiak.


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> I am thinking of looking into the BW PSR. However, there are so many options -which is good, I am hunting for the best deal I can find around. Right now it feels like a toss between a Black Widow PSR and a Toelke Chinook for 50's style, and a toss between a Border Black Douglas and either a Schafer Silvertip or a Blacktail Elite VL for 3 piece takedowns. As most repeated here, I don't think I can go wrong with any. I am very impressed with the recreation of the Bear 59 Kodiak.


Shop near me has a PSR at 41-44#/28 I think. 550-575 was the price. Heck of a deal, I saw it before Christmas. Let me know I can find the number and PM it. If you can hold out for a big trad show you might be able to shoot a lot of those bows to narrow it down. I'm waiting to try a Border and a Blacktail myself, but I can't make K-zoo this year and since we are so remote i'll keep waiting.


----------



## Slambo

The Wapiti bows are awesome. I traded for a Wapiti TD recurve that was a little heavier than I was looking for but it is a smooth, quiet, fast bow. I also recently shot a 1 piece made by a Texan by the name of Bob Sarrells; verrrry smooth.


----------



## TGbow

There are custom bowyers that have a return policy like 7 Lakes. There are others that do offer returns.
Speaking from experience, I wont buy a bow that I cant return.
Hate see somebody stuck with a bow that dont fit them.


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## Edizkan

Looks like there is a Traditional Bowhunters Expo in Michigan this January. I am considering to drive up there if the weather permits. http://gnqco.com/p/expo Confirmed vendors:

3Rivers Archery, Ace Archery Tackle, BCY, Benefit 4 Kids, Black Widow Custom Bows, Farr West Leather, Grayling Outdoor Products, Great Northern Bowhunting Company, Great Northern Quiver Company, Java Man Archery, Michigan Bowhunters, Michigan Longbow Association, National Wild Turkey Federation, Pine Hollow Longbows, Rhino Products, Safari Tuff, Selway Archery Products, Sparrow Designs, The Archers Collection, Traditional Archery Products, Traditional Bowhunter Magazine, Traditions Leathercraft, Yumi, Michigan Broadhead Collectors, True North Arrows, St Joe River Bows and Thunderbird Epoxy, Lost Nation Archery Company, Poison Dart Bows, C. Mally Concessions, Compton Traditional Bowhunters, Northern Mist Longbows, TradArchers' World Magazine, Hill Country Bows, TimberHawk Bows, 
Bearpaw USA, OMC Bowyer Supply, G Fred Asbell, Sitka Gear, Emerald Traditional Archery, Bear Archery, NewWood Longbows, Wirwicki Primitive Archery, Zipper, Safari Tuff, Predator Bows/Hunters Niche, Blacktail Bow Company, A&H Archery, Ron LaClair's Traditional Archery, Kustom King Traditional Archery,Backcountry Hunters Anglers, Michigan Flint Knappers, Arrow-Fix, Sauers & Company Veneers, Backwater Legacies


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## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> Looks like there is a Traditional Bowhunters Expo in Michigan this January. I am considering to drive up there if the weather permits. http://gnqco.com/p/expo Confirmed vendors:
> 
> 3Rivers Archery, Ace Archery Tackle, BCY, Benefit 4 Kids, Black Widow Custom Bows, Farr West Leather, Grayling Outdoor Products, Great Northern Bowhunting Company, Great Northern Quiver Company, Java Man Archery, Michigan Bowhunters, Michigan Longbow Association, National Wild Turkey Federation, Pine Hollow Longbows, Rhino Products, Safari Tuff, Selway Archery Products, Sparrow Designs, The Archers Collection, Traditional Archery Products, Traditional Bowhunter Magazine, Traditions Leathercraft, Yumi, Michigan Broadhead Collectors, True North Arrows, St Joe River Bows and Thunderbird Epoxy, Lost Nation Archery Company, Poison Dart Bows, C. Mally Concessions, Compton Traditional Bowhunters, Northern Mist Longbows, TradArchers' World Magazine, Hill Country Bows, TimberHawk Bows,
> Bearpaw USA, OMC Bowyer Supply, G Fred Asbell, Sitka Gear, Emerald Traditional Archery, Bear Archery, NewWood Longbows, Wirwicki Primitive Archery, Zipper, Safari Tuff, Predator Bows/Hunters Niche, Blacktail Bow Company, A&H Archery, Ron LaClair's Traditional Archery, Kustom King Traditional Archery,Backcountry Hunters Anglers, Michigan Flint Knappers, Arrow-Fix, Sauers & Company Veneers, Backwater Legacies


Kalamazoo, January 27-29.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> Kalamazoo, January 27-29.


Yup


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## wapitidon

Man you owe it to yourself to take a trip to Colorado and visit Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear in Wheat Ridge. They are great people with more bows than a guy could ever dream about. I think he said about 500-600 at one point. On top of that he encourages people to come shoot them before they buy them. Try the grip, feel it at draw shoot it and feel it is dead in hand and then buy. On top of that Tom and his boys and staff are top notch coaches and can help with selection and shooting tips as well as other gear needed to match with your new "meat rocket launcher" Just saying it is a trip worth taking to shoot them and handle them all in basically one spot. Everyone on AT is going to have a personal favorite. I believe your personal favorite should be what ever you shoot best and suits you best. I too have been on the search for a couple of years now and have tried many different recurve bows looking for my perfect bow. I think I found mine and am no longer looking, I hope you find yours as well.


----------



## Edizkan

wapitidon said:


> Man you owe it to yourself to take a trip to Colorado and visit Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear in Wheat Ridge. They are great people with more bows than a guy could ever dream about. I think he said about 500-600 at one point. On top of that he encourages people to come shoot them before they buy them. Try the grip, feel it at draw shoot it and feel it is dead in hand and then buy. On top of that Tom and his boys and staff are top notch coaches and can help with selection and shooting tips as well as other gear needed to match with your new "meat rocket launcher" Just saying it is a trip worth taking to shoot them and handle them all in basically one spot. Everyone on AT is going to have a personal favorite. I believe your personal favorite should be what ever you shoot best and suits you best. I too have been on the search for a couple of years now and have tried many different recurve bows looking for my perfect bow. I think I found mine and am no longer looking, I hope you find yours as well.


I'm a frequent visitor of their website and I like their inventory. For some reason though, finding that sweet spot draw weights (50 - 55#) is very hard with used bows. Most of the bows that I seem to go for are either over 60# or in the low 40s. As you said, it would be ideal to try a bow before buying it however; taking a trip from Rhode Island to Colorado for any reason other than an elk or antelope hunt is not happening. I wish, but can't.


----------



## Edizkan

Hahaha... Wife yells from the living room: "Let's go in spring. Colorado is beautiful..." Never say never I guess.


----------



## Paddlepro

I have had used and new Black Widows and they are very fine bows. However, a friend let me shoot his Border Black Douglas once and I ordered one the very next day. My shooting has improved greatly. So much that I now have a Border Raptor longbow on order.


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## ShrtRnd

Easykeeper said:


> I've always had a soft spot for 50s style recurves. I've had two, a Robertson Peregrine and a McCullough '59er.


+1 on the Robertson Peregrine, believe that line of '50 style Bow is the Tribal Styx now. Closest I've seen to the original Peregrine is the Toelke Chinook/Super Static Recurves.


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## Edizkan

I just talked to Dan Toelke over the phone, and he will be building a custom Chinook for me. Everything I have read about "what a nice guy he is" are underrated. His knowledge and suggestions were spot on to what I need, and what I want to use the bow for and his expertise is invaluable. I highly recommend him. I'll post the picture of the bow once I receive it (3 weeks)


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## Yooper-travler

I've shot one. Great bow. I'm thinking hard about the lynx with both the longbow and recurve limbs. I think you'll love that bow.


----------



## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> I just talked to Dan Toelke over the phone, and he will be building a custom Chinook for me. Everything I have read about "what a nice guy he is" are underrated. His knowledge and suggestions were spot on to what I need, and what I want to use the bow for and his expertise is invaluable. I highly recommend him. I'll post the picture of the bow once I receive it (3 weeks)


Never shot one but I know it's a good choice. His bows have a great reputation and I've never heard a bad thing about any of them, just glowing reviews.

What woods did you get?


----------



## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> I've shot one. Great bow. I'm thinking hard about the lynx with both the longbow and recurve limbs. I think you'll love that bow.


I'm hoping so. I haven't heard anything negative about these bows and having a bow built for me is pretty awesome. Sending him my hand outline. I think I am going for Texas Ebony riser with Myrtle veneers on limbs.


----------



## Easykeeper

Nice!


----------



## bushcraftbrandon

Toelke Chinook. Done.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Never shot one but I know it's a good choice. His bows have a great reputation and I've never heard a bad thing about any of them, just glowing reviews.
> 
> What woods did you get?


Same here. He recommends Texas Ebony with Myrtle limb veneers. I was originally thinking of Cocobolo with quilted maple but myrtle seems to be a better choice with dark woods. I like the weight of cocobolo, which is pretty close to ironwood, but the difference between Texas ebony and cocobolo is very small. I like dark walnut colored woods. Cocobolo is a hit or miss in that department since they vary from red to brown.


----------



## Edizkan

bushcraftbrandon said:


> Toelke Chinook. Done.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Brandon, do you have pictures of your Toelke's that you can share. Katalox is one of the heaviest woods out there and can be very nice when it's done.


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## Edizkan

I love my wife. I told her that I ordered a Toelke Chinook and this is her response:

Wife -Did you nay Border from Scotland (referring to my interest in the Border Black Douglas)
Me -There is a $500 difference. I have the money for Toelke since I sold the recurve (Hoyt) and the pistol.
Wife -You know, Scots are big hunters. There is something romantic about a bow from Scotland. I think you should go for Border too. 
Me -(after a brief silence) I love you. 

Hahaha. I swear, she shocks me from time to time. She hates touching meat, and the fact that I process the deer in the garage freaks her out every time. But a while back I was debating about replacing the Mercury Grand Marquis we had at the time, her response "It's all paid for. Besides, I like the fact that you can put a deer in the trunk..." I made a touchdown dance with tears of joy. 

FYI. Current wait time for a Border Black Douglas is 14 weeks.


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## bushcraftbrandon

Edizkan said:


> Brandon, do you have pictures of your Toelke's that you can share. Katalox is one of the heaviest woods out there and can be very nice when it's done.












Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Edizkan

Wow! That Katalox has more character than the pictures I saw on the internet. Nice bows Brandon.


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## Edizkan

That wood sinks in water like a rock. Katalox wood (Mexican Royal Ebony) in wood database


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## TC209X50

Jordan Stalker by John Jordan in Ohio. John has been building recurves since 1989 and builds some of the smoothest shooting recurves around at a fair price for a custom built bow out of exoctic woods. A lot of his bows go to Italy, I own four of them. This one I had built this spring is Cocobolo and Bacote with Wenge and maple stripes and Bacote limbs.


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## rsarns

Check out Bigfoot bows, his SS is an amazing bow


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## DDSHOOTER

marcelxl said:


> Dryad was my first "step up" in quality and performance, I have the ILF ACS in bow longbow and recurve flavours and I can't say anything but good things.
> 
> So much so that now I am in the market for a "legal" competition bow I went straight back and should have that one early in 2017.
> 
> I have drawn and shot other high end bows and been left smiling and maybe a little disappointed sometimes but it's very subjective. I can't and won't knock anybodies work out there…..I shot with the owner of Cari-bow and saw and sampled his wares and I believe them to be the absolute nicest looking bows out there as well as excellent shooters but I now compare all to my Dryads and so far I haven't shot anything that is that much better if at all…….
> 
> I would love to one day attend one of the big events stateside to really have a good look out there at high level customs to sample each one in a configuration that suits me rather than some opportunist, chance shots of a bow on the range!


So far, I am with Marc. 














Dan


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## rsarns

Bigfoot SS TD
Not only are they works of art, they are amazingly fast and efficient. Lots of great bowyers and suggestions in this thread, I know Kirk Lavender and he is not only a great Bowyer but a really great guy


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## marcelxl

DDSHOOTER said:


> So far, I am with Marc.
> View attachment 5348697
> 
> View attachment 5348713
> 
> Dan


And that would be a beautiful example too!

I am so stoked about my Orion coming, being the big tart I am, I have got a 19" riser coming in the same woods as my 17" Epic. 

In other news I just took delivery of a Toelke Whip I traded for, 62" and 43#@27" which I hope to be my go to hunting bow particularly on long hike hunts through the bush. I managed a half dozen shots in my shop last night and I like it a lot. My strength is down now so I did not over do it but looking forwards to getting to know her better. But I definitely see why Toelke have their fans


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## Edizkan

rsarns said:


> Bigfoot SS TD
> Not only are they works of art, they are amazingly fast and efficient. Lots of great bowyers and suggestions in this thread, I know Kirk Lavender and he is not only a great Bowyer but a really great guy


I couldn't agree more. This thread has been a very educational journey, and knowing the amount of good quality bowyers, seeing their work is awesome. I am getting more and more into traditional shooting and knowing myself, I will be having a collection of these bows sooner or later. I am going hunting tomorrow morning with my Black Widow, putting her to the test. Send some prayers towards my way for success. The Muzzy Phantom 125gr broadheads look like they will do a mean job on the deer.


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## Edizkan

These 2 arrived today. Bob Lee Elite Signature and Great Plains Sr. Swift. Getting there.


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## sawtoothscream

Nice looking bows, congrats


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## Edizkan

sawtoothscream said:


> Nice looking bows, congrats


Thanks.


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## JParanee

Nice bows and a nice rug


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## Edizkan

JParanee said:


> Nice bows and a nice rug


Hahaha... It's from Lowes. Wife bought it for the dining room, but didn't like it there so my office inherited it.


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## Yooper-travler

Well, run any arrows out of them yet? I'm curious about the feel of the BL vs the GP. I've been tempted by the Bob Lee bows for a long time.


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## WabanakiWarrior

Wind warrior from white wolf archery


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## ChadMR82

Let us know what you think of your bows you got. I am pretty partial to my Bob Lee bows. A BL was the first "custom" bow I ever owned and I keep coming back to them because they shoot quiet, simple and well, I like them. Been shooting my ILF rigs alot this winter and recently went back to my BL wondering why I ever tried anything else. I don't like to tinker once I have a good setup so I am not the biggest ILF fan. I like to set it and forget it, sounded like an info commercial didnt it, lol. 

Lots of good custom bows, ILF rigs etc out there to be had. Once you find the one that gives you the best mojo, then stick with it because you will compare every other bow to that one.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> Well, run any arrows out of them yet? I'm curious about the feel of the BL vs the GP. I've been tempted by the Bob Lee bows for a long time.


I sure did. But I don't think it's fair to compare the Bob Lee to Great Plains. The differences are stark:

AMO length -> BL:62" GP:58"
Riser length: -> BL:19" GP:16"
Draw weight -> BL:54# GP:50#

Physical weight of Bob Lee was also a lot heavier than the Great Plains. Also, Bob Lee came with string dampeners and Great Plains didn't, and I believe they had the wrong strand string on the GP (looked way thin). I loved the grip of GP vs BL. It's very nicely sculpted and fits my hand like a glove. 

That being said: Bob Lee shot dead in hand, no vibration, quite and fast. Great Plains had some significant vibration after the shot, a little louder but surprisingly seemed faster too. I found no difference in the feel between Bob Lee and Black Widow. They are very comparable, but I think BL is faster than the BW. My 3D score went 100 points up since I start shooting Black Widow. I will bring BL to 3D next week to see how it stacks up. My custom order Toelke Chinook should be arriving at the same time I will be doing those tests, so we'll have somewhat an idea. 

I will do an actual test of these bows once I set the GP with the correct string and dampeners. I will also purchase a chrono to check out the speed of each bow and post the video here. I am currently using Gold Tip traditional 55/75 (==400 spine) arrows at 32.5" (need to shorten them to 31" to stiffen a little more), 75gr weighted inserts and 125gr tips. Overall weight of the arrow is over 500gr. Planning to buy Beman White Out arrows with brass inserts and 5" right helical feathers. 

I also would like to give a huge thumbs up to RMS Gear. Bought the Great Plains from them and their shipping and service was excellent. They even told me that if I end up not liking the bow, I can send it back for a full refund as long as it's in the same condition I received. nicest people to deal with.


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## Edizkan

While at it, I wanna ask you gents opinion about recurve string. Great Plains came with 2 sets of limbs 50# and 60# at 28". Recommended brace height @ 58" amo is 8" to 8.5". Would a 14 strand flemish twist good enough for both limbs or should I get 12 and 14?


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## sawtoothscream

Send champion custom string a email and he will set you up right. Great guy and makes a great string.


----------



## Edizkan

sawtoothscream said:


> Send champion custom string a email and he will set you up right. Great guy and makes a great string.


Thanks for the referral.


----------



## Lowtide

A big bag of money!!


----------



## Edizkan

My Toelke Chinook arrived today and I'm sorry but I have to say this: It's absolutely, 100%, crazy good. I am very excited and happy so I will try to collect my thoughts to share some information.

I placed my order right after I talked with Dan Toelke over the phone on Jan 10th. I have mentioned what a great guy to talk to in my previous comments in this thread. So, between my initial contact until delivery today, it's been only 32 days. In the custom bow world I believe this is considered lightening fast. The process is very simple and Dan is the easiest to deal. You call him, email him, describe him what you want, and as soon as you hang up, the process starts. He picks up the wood and starts working on your bow, asks for you to send a tracing of your hand (if you want the locator grip), and you send him the money prior to shipping. I hope he keeps on working like this and nobody tries to burn him after all that hard work he puts through. Truly a great guy. 

Let's talk about the bow...
Some boring specs:
Toelke Chinook One piece recurve
58" a.m.o. right handed with locator grip
55# draw weight @28" draw length.
Tillered split finger
Wood: Texas Ebony with Myrtle accents and limb veneers

The real deal:
The craftsmanship on this bow is truly top notch. I originally inquired about cocobolo and quilted maple as my wood choices. While he was in approval of my choice, he recommended me to consider Texas ebony with myrtle. His recommendation wasn't too far from my inquiry, but I have to say this: the pictures for this wood combination in his website doesn't do justice to this bow. Texas ebony is really nice, dark brown -like dark walnut tone with beautiful grain to it. He picked up a sweet quilted myrtle for this bow. Bow's look and finish is excellent. Along with the bow he included a leather bow sleeve, 2 strings with silencers and nocks pre-installed, and a stringer. Everything looks and feels top quality.

I immediately string the bow, took it to my basement and shot 3 dozen or so arrows through it. I don't know why but I don't think I have ever held a bow that fits me so perfectly. Oh, wait a second! I know why; This bows grip is exclusively made for my hand (remember, I send him the trace of my hand?). So, if you ever complain about a bow grip too big, too small, I suggest you to give Dan Toelke a call. The bow pulls and stacks smoothly. It's a quiet and dead in the hand bow. However, don't compare this skinny 50's style bow to a big and heavy Bob Lee. As far as quietness and dead in hand goes, Bob Lee pretty much takes the cake. However, I haven't put them through a chronograph yet, but this Toelke Chinook felt like it's the fastest bow I have ever shot. I think so, because I was aiming the same way I was aiming with my other bows, and I shot couple of inches high with this bow compared to others. Now I really want to make a speed comparison between the 4 bows I currently have. 

I am a very happy camper with my Toelke and don't expect to see it in the classifieds. Great American bowyer, great product, great service. I recommend Dan Toelke and his bows without a reservation.

Pictures to follow...


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## Edizkan

Here are some pictures of my first truly custom to me bow: Toelke Chinook.


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## Easykeeper

Beautiful bow, nice way to start out with the customs! Thanks for the write up.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Beautiful bow, nice way to start out with the customs! Thanks for the write up.


Thank you very much. She is a beauty. I think this is all the bow that I need, but I am still very curious about Schafer Silvertips and Blacktails.


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## Edizkan

Before I forget, I want to add a note from my conversation with Dan. His company, Montana Bows -as you can guess, is in Montana where he and his fellow hunter friends do a lot of elk hunting. Testimony to this bow, he hunts elk with a 50# bow and 550+ gr arrows.


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## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> Thank you very much. She is a beauty. *I think this is all the bow that I need*, but I am still very curious about Schafer Silvertips and Blacktails.


Theoretically true, but...:chortle:


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Theoretically true, but...:chortle:


Hahaha... I said "but" didn't I?


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> Thank you very much. She is a beauty. I think this is all the bow that I need, but I am still very curious about Schafer Silvertips and Blacktails.


Ahhh the lies we tell ourselves! I'm trying to get my paws on a silver tip myself.


----------



## sawtoothscream

Edizkan said:


> Hahaha... I said "but" didn't I?


It's never over lol. Love my bows and don't need another. That said the hoyt satori riser may find its way to my house.


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## JParanee

Beautiful bow 

Congrats


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## BOHO

a chinook will be mine at some point in the future as well. I had one that was way to heavy for me but I knew then it was one awesome bow. if I dont get a used one, mine will also be 58" but mine will be around 40#


----------



## ChadMR82

Check out timberhawk bows. Scott makes some fantastic bows. I love my bob lee but timberhawks are awfully nice also.


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## Pete53

my son has purchased two black widow bows and think`s they make the best recurves and longbows .


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## Edizkan

ChadMR82 said:


> Check out timberhawk bows. Scott makes some fantastic bows. I love my bob lee but timberhawks are awfully nice also.


There is really no end to it. So many good bowyers -past and present. During this thread I gathered this many bowyers that grabbed my interest (my interest... it's not even close to a full list):

Black Widow
Bob Lee
Blacktail
Schafer
Great Plains
Dale Dye
Cari bow
Stalker bows
Timberhawk
Wapiti
Toelke
Javaman
Border
Bighorn
Dryad
Foley
Fedora
Palmer
Morrison
Pronghorn
Robertson
Great Northern
.
.
.
The list goes on and on.


----------



## Edizkan

Pete53 said:


> my son has purchased two black widow bows and think`s they make the best recurves and longbows .


They truly do. I was at one point debating between the Black Widow PSR and the reintroduction Bear 59 Kodiak and Toelke. Found a PSR at the Stickbow classifieds but that turned out to be a scammer selling a $1200 bow for $400 -which turned out that he stole images of a psr that was on sale here and posting them in the stickbow classifieds. When it's too good to be true, generally it is. Besides, I liked the fact that Dan made this bow specific to fit in my hand. It doesn't get better than that.


----------



## Edizkan

We can check the Border Black Douglas out of the list as well. After making an artful deal, I managed to acquire a used one from a member of this site this morning. I should receive it before the weekend.

One thing I realized while hoarding these wooden sticks: They hold their value much better than firearms or sometimes even gold. Especially when you buy a used custom bow from any of the brands we've been talking about, you are almost certain to get your money back if not make a couple of buck on top. Seriously, it wouldn't be a stretch to list a Bob Lee Signature Elite in excellent condition in these forums for $750. Am I right?


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## Edizkan

Blacktail, checked.


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## Edizkan

I took the Chinook to the league this Tuesday, and bunch of guys shot it and they shot it really good (some better than me. Unacceptable!). The Axis Traditionals fly excellent with this bow.


----------



## sawtoothscream

Edizkan said:


> Blacktail, checked.


Damn dude, you move fast. Congrats on another fine bow


----------



## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> Blacktail, checked.


You are cutting a swath through the classifieds, good for you!


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> Blacktail, checked.


You may need an intervention.


----------



## Edizkan

sawtoothscream said:


> Damn dude, you move fast. Congrats on another fine bow


Thanks. The collection is coming to a completion (for now)...


----------



## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> You are cutting a swath through the classifieds, good for you!


I have couple of items that I constantly check. I have lost some good deals in the past,now I am acting as quick as I can.


----------



## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> You may need an intervention.


Nah! I'm replacing one addiction with another. A hint: One German WW2 Mauser I sold to the local store was enough to cover a high end custom bow. This is my testing period to see what I really like and would like to keep. You may end up seeing at least half of these bows back here for sale.


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> Nah! I'm replacing one addiction with another. A hint: One German WW2 Mauser I sold to the local store was enough to cover a high end custom bow. This is my testing period to see what I really like and would like to keep. *You may end up seeing at least half of these bows back here for sale*.


Oh I'm counting on that my friend!:darkbeer:


----------



## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> Nah! I'm replacing one addiction with another. A hint: One German WW2 Mauser I sold to the local store was enough to cover a high end custom bow. This is my testing period to see what I really like and would like to keep. You may end up seeing at least half of these bows back here for sale.


I've been there an done that with used bows. I found out two main things, there are lots of really nice bows out there and that a few of them really resonate with me. It's a fun thing to do and not very expensive if you do it right.


----------



## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> I've been there an done that with used bows. I found out two main things, there are lots of really nice bows out there and that a few of them really resonate with me. It's a fun thing to do and not very expensive if you do it right.


:thumbs_up

Exactly. Now, I only need to get my hands on a good Schafer Silvertip. I found one on another site (the scammer paradise), but it was 62# and had a name on it. I don't mind 62# for myself but not for a bow I'm trying out for the first time in case I decide to turn around and sell it. 

PS. There is little to no difference in pull stack between 50# and 60# limbs on a Great Plains S.R Swift recurve. Now that's pretty impressive. I can feel there is a difference in the arrow flight and impact but not in draw.


----------



## ShrtRnd

Congrats on the Toelke Chinook, some fine looking craftsmanship there. 

I have been on the fence between one of Dans' Whips or a Stalker Dingo FXT as my next 1pc Lonbow, seeing your Chinnok & the workmanship makes it even harder to decide now..


----------



## Yooper-travler

ShrtRnd said:


> Congrats on the Toelke Chinook, some fine looking craftsmanship there.
> 
> I have been on the fence between one of Dans' Whips or a Stalker Dingo FXT as my next 1pc Lonbow, seeing your Chinnok & the workmanship makes it even harder to decide now..



My whip should be done in a week. I went with the 2 piece option. You can't go wrong with either choice.


----------



## Edizkan

ShrtRnd said:


> Congrats on the Toelke Chinook, some fine looking craftsmanship there.
> 
> I have been on the fence between one of Dans' Whips or a Stalker Dingo FXT as my next 1pc Lonbow, seeing your Chinnok & the workmanship makes it even harder to decide now..


Since I don't have a Stalker (for now.. lol) I can not compare the two. As far as the whole experience goes, Dan is the man. I suggest you to give him a call. He is very helpful.


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## Edizkan

Now that I acquired bunch of them, I am getting a sense and it's not what I was expecting. I'm going to leave the Toelke Chinook out of the comparison since it's a 50s style, one piece recurve that is built specifically for me. I promised to post some technical information, but I need to put together the correct equipment and arrows. The below is purely how I feel about each bow and how they perform for me.

Black Widow PSA V. 60" 49#@28" -> I have always wanted one and now that I have it, it's staying in the family. The bow shoots excellent. It improved my 3d league score by 100 points. Very quite and vibration free. Very smooth draw. I believe the reverse limb pockets give this bow the extra brace height that helps with the forgiveness. I contacted Black Widow prior to buying this bow and their customer service is excellent. Very helpful folk.

Bob Lee Signature Elite 62" 55# -> This is a weird one. It's overall the best bow I ever owned. It improved my shooting even better than the Black Widow. I love a heavy weighing bow, and this is the heaviest I have (physical weight, not the draw weight). One thing I find very uncomfortable is the grip -it's a bulky grip, but I don't think it matters after seeing how I shoot it. People in the range are already making offers to buy it. Not anytime soon 

Great Plains S.R. Swift Cazador 58" 50# & 60# -> I have to admit, this is one of the nicest looking bows I ever owned. The cocobolo and Honduras rosewood are a delightful combination. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't feel too much difference when pulling either the 50 or the 60# limbs. When stringing them yes, the 60# takes an extra Ughh, but not bad at all. The bow is fast. At first it had some vibration, but I ordered a 14 strand flemish twist string and made my own puffs with yarn I stole from my wife's stash. After that, the vibration was totally gone. I haven't taken this bow to 3D league yet, but will soon.

Border Black Douglas 62" 55# -> I just received this bow and I am not sure if it was setup correct. The string it came with looked too long (62 inches) and I felt strong hand shock after the shot. I wrote to Sid at Border archery and he confirmed my suspicion. The string needs to be 59" for the 62" bow, 14 strand (preferably fast flite plus) and 7" - 7.5" brace height (lower better). I just ordered a flemish twist string with those specs and I shall know better. But even with the setup it came with, I blew up a nock already. The bow groups really fine. Sid also suggested me to consider getting the newer Hex 6.7 limbs. I am pretty sure the new string will suffice. 

Blacktail Elite VL 60" 53# -> Stuck in the post office due to Presidents Day. I'll come back to this one once I receive the bow. 

I think this is all for now, unless a Silvertip comes along the way. I just saw one for sale on eBay, drop dead gorgeous, but it's asking price is $1800. I'm not sure if the seller realizes that is too high for a pre-owned bow. I know bunch of high-end custom exotic wood bows sitting in people's inventory for $1250 with 2 sets of limbs. Let me know if you guys have a Schafer Silvertip you may consider aparting or even trading.


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## Edizkan

Update: Shot Great Plains in the traditional only league last night. Scored my second highest, right after Bob Lee. To put it in perspective about this "scoring", I have never shot these bows before. I've been taking each bow for the last couple of weeks for the first time to the range. I score the 3rd or 4th best among 12 or so shooters. And I hand my bows to other shooters to hear what they think about them. Great Plains proved to be one smooth and dead on shooter. Everybody loved the grip of the bow. 

Picked up the Blacktail Elite yesterday as well and boy-o-boy. What a beautiful bow. Guys in Blacktail do know how to make a bow. It's got Bubinga and Rosewood riser with birdseye maple limbs and accents. Bow is fast and dead in hand, pretty much like the other bows. I believe it stacks a little harder and I assume it's the long 19" riser and short limbs that gives overall 60" amo to the bow. I realized a 19" riser shoots better with 62" or longer limb setup while a 15-16" riser shoots great at 58 and 60 inches. 

Guys at the range didn't have a favorable or negative opinion between the two bows (GP and Blacktail). They liked them equally. Next week I will be taking the Border to the league.


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## Edizkan

PS. I got an ultimatum from the wife. I'm forbidden to sell the Blacktail. Hahaha...


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## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> PS. I got an ultimatum from the wife. I'm forbidden to sell the Blacktail. Hahaha...


OK, lets see some pictures.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> OK, lets see some pictures.


As you wish...


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## Edizkan

All 6 of them. I don't know you, but 7 sounds better, right? I'll call them 7 Deadly Sticks.









Top to bottom:

1- Toelke Chinook
2- Great Plains S.R. Swift Cazador
3- Blacktail Elite VL
4- Black Widow PSA V
5- Bob Lee Signature Elite
6- Border Black Douglas
7- ???


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## ghostgoblin22

you got one hell of a stable mate, and that's an understatement


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## Edizkan

ghostgoblin22 said:


> you got one hell of a stable mate, and that's an understatement


Thank you.


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## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> All 6 of them. I don't know you, but 7 sounds better, right? I'll call them 7 Deadly Sticks.
> 
> View attachment 5575201
> 
> 
> Top to bottom:
> 
> 1- Toelke Chinook
> 2- Great Plains S.R. Swift Cazador
> 3- Blacktail Elite VL
> 4- Black Widow PSA V
> 5- Bob Lee Signature Elite
> 6- Border Black Douglas
> 7- ???


Kudos. I am eagerly awaiting your thoughts the recurve Dan made for you. And yes my friend, *9 sounds better*.


----------



## Easykeeper

Very nice!


----------



## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> Picked up the Blacktail Elite yesterday as well and boy-o-boy. What a beautiful bow. Guys in Blacktail do know how to make a bow. It's got Bubinga and Rosewood riser with birdseye maple limbs and accents. Bow is fast and dead in hand, pretty much like the other bows. I believe it stacks a little harder and I assume it's the long 19" riser and short limbs that gives overall 60" amo to the bow. I realized a 19" riser shoots better with 62" or longer limb setup while a 15-16" riser shoots great at 58 and 60 inches.


I'm not sure what your draw length is but Blacktail recommends their 60" Elite TD recurve as best suited for a 24"-27" draw. If you are over that it would explain the slight stacking you are reporting.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> Kudos. I am eagerly awaiting your thoughts the recurve Dan made for you. And yes my friend, *9 sounds better*.


I actually posted my thoughts on the Chinook couple of posts back with pictures. I love the bow. Excellent craftsmanship, top notch quality and service. Bow performs flawless. It is definitely going to be my hunting bow. Fast, quite and at 55# it is still smooth. The only thing I tell people to consider when buying a one piece 50's style bow is the fact that these bows are very light in physical weight. For a hunter, that is a positive, for a competition shooter, not so much -and that applies to compound bows or Olympic recurves. It is not as stable in the hand as a 60+ inch long takedown bow with a heavy riser. That's one of the reasons I stepped up my workout regimen (the other fact that I am tired of my doctor and every digital scale calling me "fat") so that I can be more steady with these bows. I am feeling the difference in the leagues and in the range.

Yeah, nope, 9 is not better


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> I'm not sure what your draw length is but Blacktail recommends their 60" Elite TD recurve as best suited for a 24"-27" draw. If you are over that it would explain the slight stacking you are reporting.


A-ha!... My draw length is 28". That explains it. Thanks for the info. Very very helpful.


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> I actually posted my thoughts on the Chinook couple of posts back with pictures. I love the bow. Excellent craftsmanship, top notch quality and service. Bow performs flawless. It is definitely going to be my hunting bow. Fast, quite and at 55# it is still smooth. The only thing I tell people to consider when buying a one piece 50's style bow is the fact that these bows are very light in physical weight. For a hunter, that is a positive, for a competition shooter, not so much -and that applies to compound bows or Olympic recurves. It is not as stable in the hand as a 60+ inch long takedown bow with a heavy riser. That's one of the reasons I stepped up my workout regimen (the other fact that I am tired of my doctor and every digital scale calling me "fat") so that I can be more steady with these bows. I am feeling the difference in the leagues and in the range.
> 
> Yeah, nope, 9 is not better


Keep telling yourself that! I just received Dan's email. My whip is on it's way.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> Keep telling yourself that! I just received Dan's email. My whip is on it's way.


:thumbs_up Congrats mate.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> I'm not sure what your draw length is but Blacktail recommends their 60" Elite TD recurve as best suited for a 24"-27" draw. If you are over that it would explain the slight stacking you are reporting.


I am probably going to order a new set of limbs. I know you had good experience with Blacktails. How are the limbs valued and do they sell fast? There is a name on the ones the bow came with. Trying to get a sense before I list them here.


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## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> I am probably going to order a new set of limbs. I know you had good experience with Blacktails. How are the limbs valued and do they sell fast? There is a name on the ones the bow came with. Trying to get a sense before I list them here.


If it were me, I'd order a new bow to the exact specifications you want. I know if you want a new set of limbs you have to send in the riser. I don't think I've ever seen a set of Blacktail limbs for sale separate from a riser. It's probably cheaper to sell what you have and put the money toward a new bow than to send in what you have for a new set of limbs.

For an Elite VL like you have, limbs start at $595 and go up a bit if you want them footed or a couple exotic wood options...http://www.blacktailbows.com/pricing.html

Of course all that depends on if you click with the bow. Blacktails are my favorite of what I've tried but there are lots of nice bows out there and comes down to personal preference. The grip can be a deal breaker even on a bow that is in every other way fabulous.

For what it's worth, I have a 29" draw and prefer the 64" length.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> If it were me, I'd order a new bow to the exact specifications you want. I know if you want a new set of limbs you have to send in the riser. I don't think I've ever seen a set of Blacktail limbs for sale separate from a riser. It's probably cheaper to sell what you have and put the money toward a new bow than to send in what you have for a new set of limbs.
> 
> For an Elite VL like you have, limbs start at $595 and go up a bit if you want them footed or a couple exotic wood options...http://www.blacktailbows.com/pricing.html
> 
> Of course all that depends on if you click with the bow. Blacktails are my favorite of what I've tried but there are lots of nice bows out there and comes down to personal preference. The grip can be a deal breaker even on a bow that is in every other way fabulous.
> 
> For what it's worth, I have a 29" draw and prefer the 64" length.


That makes sense. Thank you very much for the input. I'm listing the bow for sale here. If it doesn't sell here for the price I want, I just saw a used Sitka sold on eBay for $1000.


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## Edizkan

And it's available here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4805217


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## carmanusa

Edizkan said:


> Since I don't have a Stalker (for now.. lol) I can not compare the two. As far as the whole experience goes, Dan is the man. I suggest you to give him a call. He is very helpful.


Glad to hear how much you've enjoyed your experience with Toelke, I had been looking for some time buying trading used bows then last year went with Dan for my 1st custom from scratch for me, small hands short draw and 3 under, more $ but best decision so far beautiful Pika I shoot everyday and is my whitetail turkey bow, and this year a present to myself again a heavier Chinook trimmed down to fit my hand (also 2pc) for a future elk trip, should arrive next month or two, so glad to read thru your thread and see the continued enthusiasm about the Chinook! 

For me getting to pick out the woods fit to my hand and have my name on it just makes it special, I hit that stage in life where I'm now willing to put out a couple extra $ to have it my way! But all that trading and selling sure helped me figure a lot of things out!

Next I think I may need low lb 1pc whip for fun shooting at the farm!


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## Edizkan

carmanusa said:


> Glad to hear how much you've enjoyed your experience with Toelke, I had been looking for some time buying trading used bows then last year went with Dan for my 1st custom from scratch for me, small hands short draw and 3 under, more $ but best decision so far beautiful Pika I shoot everyday and is my whitetail turkey bow, and this year a present to myself again a heavier Chinook trimmed down to fit my hand (also 2pc) for a future elk trip, should arrive next month or two, so glad to read thru your thread and see the continued enthusiasm about the Chinook!
> 
> For me getting to pick out the woods fit to my hand and have my name on it just makes it special, I hit that stage in life where I'm now willing to put out a couple extra $ to have it my way! But all that trading and selling sure helped me figure a lot of things out!
> 
> Next I think I may need low lb 1pc whip for fun shooting at the farm!


Right on! I'm glad the topic is helping out. It sure has helped me to collect some nice bows. There is one quote I truly appreciate: I am not rich enough to buy cheap things. It proved true time and time again.


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## ShrtRnd

Nice collection you have acquired. I'm seeing a trend in your choice of Riser colors tho.. haha


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## ibehiking

I really liked the Blacktail that I had, until I wasn't comfortable with the draw weight. I also the RER recurve that I had, and one of my current favorites is an Eaglewing Talon II stati8c tipped recurve. Like many have said. It seems to really come down to your interaction with the bow. I have had several bows that were very well made, had good performance, but the experience of shooting them was just "OK". Others put a smile on my face every time I let an arrow fly. Your comment about the difference in your "experience" between the Black Widow and the Bob Lee describes it well.


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## Edizkan

ShrtRnd said:


> Nice collection you have acquired. I'm seeing a trend in your choice of Riser colors tho.. haha


Coincidental, a happy one


----------



## Ringlight

Look at Bodnik (Bearpaw) Bow's custom Mohawk. You can get it almost any way you like.


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## TGbow

Check out Sierra Blanca recurves by Jess Stuart.
Great bows modeled after the Rocky Mt recurve.
You wont have to spend $700 to 800 to get one.
Think his base bow is $550.
Great guy to deal with.


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## Edizkan

TGbow said:


> Check out Sierra Blanca recurves by Jess Stuart.
> Great bows modeled after the Rocky Mt recurve.
> You wont have to spend $700 to 800 to get one.
> Think his base bow is $550.
> Great guy to deal with.


Thanks for the recommendation. His exotic wood bows are indeed less expensive than most.


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## Edizkan

Shooting Toelke Chinook one piece recurve.

This bow loves long range. I took it out to 30, 40 and 50 yards. I was on paper at 40 yards, missed 2 at 50 but was still on the target without lifting the bow too much up. This things is a little freak.


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## Edizkan

Great Plains SR Swift Cazador

This bow keeps on surprising me -positively. I purchased it with 2 sets of limbs, paying a lot for my taste and wasn't impressed in the beginning. But once I put on the string silencers, this bow has been shooting like a dream. Believe it or not, I shot this bow the best among the 3 I took out to the range.


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## Edizkan

Bob Lee Signature Elite.

Not a good day with the Bob Lee. It shot the worst out of the 3 today. After this shot, I shot another group, it was worse than this. I switched back to Great Plains and shot my tightest group. Wish I had that on camera. Than switched between Chinook and Bob Lee again and Bob Lee wasn't connecting with me today. I'll shoot it again another time. But pay attention to the quietness of the bow.


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## Edizkan

I'm glad I recorded these. I can see all my mistakes and times I shot good. Seems like I fail a lot on the follow through's with my right hand and sometimes I drop my bow hand too quick. I'm also going to change my arrows to Easton traditional. They shot very good with my bows.

I don't have videos of Black Widow, Border and Blacktail today. The string I had with Black Widow was sticking on the limbs and making all kinds of vibrating sounds. It wouldn't be fair to the bow to record it. Blacktail is on sale so I it's wrapped and stored away and still waiting for Border's string to arrive.


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> I'm glad I recorded these. I can see all my mistakes and times I shot good. Seems like I fail a lot on the follow through's with my right hand and sometimes I drop my bow hand too quick. I'm also going to change my arrows to Easton traditional. They shot very good with my bows.
> 
> I don't have videos of Black Widow, Border and Blacktail today. The string I had with Black Widow was sticking on the limbs and making all kinds of vibrating sounds. It wouldn't be fair to the bow to record it. Blacktail is on sale so I it's wrapped and stored away and still waiting for Border's string to arrive.


Nice shooting. The toelke is looking good. Too much snow here to shoot in my yard. What's wrong with the widow string?


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> Nice shooting. The toelke is looking good. Too much snow here to shoot in my yard. What's wrong with the widow string?


There is some wax material on the loop that has been sticking on the limbs. When I pull the bow, it sounds like limbs are cracking while it's the sticky wax making the sound. I cleaned it once and the sound was gone, but it came back again.


----------



## TGbow

I would also recommend buying with the option to return.
I've been burnt that way more times than I want to think about.
I say that because my Samick Sage shoots better than some custom bows I've had ir shot.


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## Edizkan

TGbow said:


> I would also recommend buying with the option to return.
> I've been burnt that way more times than I want to think about.
> I say that because my Samick Sage shoots better than some custom bows I've had ir shot.


With a new bow that may be the case but all the bows I have with the exception of the Chinook are preowned, so the return option is not there. However, with preowned custom bows you loose little to none when you resell it.


----------



## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> There is some wax material on the loop that has been sticking on the limbs. When I pull the bow, it sounds like limbs are cracking while it's the sticky wax making the sound. I cleaned it once and the sound was gone, but it came back again.


Your widow is just being jealous of the other ladies in your stable. Keep shooting her and it will quiet down. There is a price to pay for owning some many lovelies.


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## Edizkan

Border update: I took the Black Douglas to the 3D league this week with the new string and scored my personal highest, moving up to the 2nd place in the league. That was a pleasant surprise. 

So this is how I did in the league with my bows:
1st - Border Black Douglas - 426 points
2nd - Bob Lee - 401 points
3rd - Great Plains - 388 points
4th - Toelke Chinook - 356 points
5th - Black Widow PSA - 348 points
Didn't shoot with the Blacktail in the league. 

Next week I am going backwards with these bows, because the scores also reflect from the last to the first bow I shot in the league. First bow was Black Widow (lowest score), then Bob Lee, > Chinook > Great Plains > Border (highest score). So next week is Great Plains, the bow I enjoy shooting the most. That list goes very different than how I shoot. Great Plains > Black Widow > Chinook > Border > Bob Lee. We'll settle this one soon I hope.


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## Yooper-travler

It's nice to have that particular problem.


----------



## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> It's nice to have that particular problem.


It's actually becoming a bit annoying. I am trying to find out which bows I connect with best and the ones I connect don't perform as well as the one's that I don't. I seriously don't want to own too many bows, and lately have been scaling down the gear that clutters my basement, particularly my gun safe. I am also letting 2 of my compound bows go, but having a hard time deciding between the two: Bowtech RPM 360 or Hoyt Nitrum (Prime is already earmarked for a friend). 1 xbow, 1 compound and hopefully no more than 2 recurves will be my ideal.


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## Yooper-travler

I hear you brother. My son just took my widow away after he bonded with it squirrel hunting. So in 2 more months a new MAX should be in my paws. I tend to try out as many as I can stick with what "feels" good to me. I don't compete, but I do like the occasional 3D shoot or stumping get together. If I may, don't be in a hurry to find what works best. Enjoy the ride. That being said, I wish you shot lower poundage so I could buy your leftovers.


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## Easykeeper

I know exactly what you mean about figuring out what you like. The trouble is it's hard to let a nice bow go, even if it isn't quite my dream bow. I think I have either 10 or 11 custom recurves hanging on my wall and I really only shoot one. The others are there because they are so nice I hate to let them go. Not a bad situation to be in but even though I bought most of them used it's still a bunch of fun money tied up in wall decorations. 

I'm really tempted at the moment to sell a couple and pick up one of the new Blacktail three piece longbows. 

One thing I have found is that only time really tells me which one I like. I need to get them tuned up and shoot them for a while to see. The right ones just keep feeling more and more comfortable and the others, not so much. It's usually a grip thing for me, some are not only more natural in the way they fit my hand but if my grip is off it's instantly noticeable. For me a big fat grip feels nice at first but there's too much room for getting off one way or another. I really like more of a narrow grip, but still prefer a large riser like in a three piece recurve.

My favorite grip is what's on my Blacktails followed closely by what's on my Silvertips.


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## Edizkan

I should go lower poundage for 3D shoots. I like to keep a 55er for hunting, but all others don't need to be over 45#.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> I know exactly what you mean about figuring out what you like. The trouble is it's hard to let a nice bow go, even if it isn't quite my dream bow. I think I have either 10 or 11 custom recurves hanging on my wall and I really only shoot one. The others are there because they are so nice I hate to let them go. Not a bad situation to be in but even though I bought most of them used it's still a bunch of fun money tied up in wall decorations.
> 
> I'm really tempted at the moment to sell a couple and pick up one of the new Blacktail three piece longbows.
> 
> One thing I have found is that only time really tells me which one I like. I need to get them tuned up and shoot them for a while to see. The right ones just keep feeling more and more comfortable and the others, not so much. It's usually a grip thing for me, some are not only more natural in the way they fit my hand but if my grip is off it's instantly noticeable. For me a big fat grip feels nice at first but there's too much room for getting off one way or another. I really like more of a narrow grip, but still prefer a large riser like in a three piece recurve.
> 
> My favorite grip is what's on my Blacktails followed closely by what's on my Silvertips.


I agree regarding the Blacktail grip. It's got a very comfortable grip. It still isn't moving on eBay btw. I may end up keeping it. Somebody is selling a set of 64" Elite limbs, but your point was dead on. If I send the bow to Blacktail for new limbs, it will cost me more than a brand new bow when all said and done. And if I do end up ordering one, I think I will go with the Sitka riser.


----------



## Edizkan

Last night 3D league: 412 points with Great Plains.


----------



## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> I agree regarding the Blacktail grip. It's got a very comfortable grip. It still isn't moving on eBay btw. I may end up keeping it. Somebody is selling a set of 64" Elite limbs, but your point was dead on. If I send the bow to Blacktail for new limbs, it will cost me more than a brand new bow when all said and done. And if I do end up ordering one, I think I will go with the Sitka riser.


I've read a lot of good things about the Sitka.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> I've read a lot of good things about the Sitka.


Short risers with long working limbs work great for me. 

Btw. The Elite is not moving on eBay either. Somebody offered $750 but turned out he had 29" draw length, and someone from China offered $600. Then I realized "Make an Offer" was checked. I'm not going to let that bow go less than $800. Decisions, decisions.


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## Easykeeper

Yeah, sometimes it takes a while for the right buyer to come along. Even a used Blacktail is significant chunk of change. 

Good luck with your sale.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper, I found one of your Blacktails


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## Edizkan

Been a while since the last time I updated this thread. But not that long for all the stuff I did in between. 

For starters I sold my Bob Lee to the local archery range owner Al. He already had a Bob Lee similar to mine but he and another guy have been offering to buy the bow. So I sold it and regretted it the same night. It was one of the best performing bows I had. 
My heartbreak must have been felt, because a gentleman from this forum offered his Bob Lee to trade with my Border Black Douglas. So we did. While I shot very good with the Border, I couldn't connect with the bow. Now Al wants this Bob Lee too... Nah. Not gonna happen. It's a mistake if you do it once but stupidity if you repeat the same mistake.

With the money I got from Bob Lee sale I ordered a Black Widow PCH X (Kingwood) from RMS Gear. Should be getting it this week. Tommy is a bery nice guy to deal with. It's a 58" bow with a 14" riser. Will be interesting to see how it performs. My Great Plains SR Swift -current most favorite bow, is also 58" with a 15" riser. 

Just sold the Blacktail and replaced it with a Wes Wallace Mentor with 2 sets of limbs. It arrived today and man what a nice bow. It is a beautiful with all the eyecandy -checkered grip, antler tips, footed limbs... It's tillered 3 under and I shoot split finger. I gave it a try shooting 3 under and the arrows went where I pointed them. I'm going to shoot this way in the next league to see how I score. I even called and had a brief chat with Mr. Wallace himself, asking information about the bow. Very nice guy like all the other bowyers I talked to. 

For some reason I'm not improving my scores with the Black Widow PSA. I ordered a new string directly from the company (DynaFlight 97) and see how much of a difference that makes. 

Still have the Toelke Chinook and it is still my designated hunting bow. I've been taking 50 yard shots with that bow and it throws the arrows like darts. Speaking of which a buddy captured the arrow in flight last time we were shooting 3D.


----------



## Edizkan

Bob Lee Elite Bicentennial. 60" AMO, 50#@28" 
Wes Wallace Mentor. 62" AMO 50&55# @28"


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## Edizkan

And being naughty at the traditional 3d league.


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## pepper46

Great Plains S/R Swift..


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## Edizkan

pepper46 said:


> Great Plains S/R Swift..


Excellent bow.


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## Edizkan

Before I forget, I also called Mr. Dale Dye -"D" to inquire about his bows. He too was a very classy gentleman like all other bowyers I talked to. I almost bought one of his bows -The Good Medicine. I think for me the best experience was actually getting to talk with these great bowyers and traditional archery folk of our time. Dan Toelke, Wes Wallace, Gregg Coffey (Java Man), Alan Pope (Blacktail), Sid (Border Archery of Scotland), and guys from Bob Lee and Black Widow (forgot their names). And with most of these guys I talked about a bow I bought used. They talked to me as if I was their customer, all very helpful and insightful. I learned a lot within the couple of months compared to all those years I've been shooting.


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## marcelxl

My new one is somewhere in delivery purgatory! not exactly sure where but through in the country apparently!

Refreshing my tracking daily but Canada post like to keep things exciting.


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## Easykeeper

It's interesting how many people take a spin through the current generation of custom bows and the used market (mostly) and differ on their final choice. We have such a huge selection of great bows that nobody can really try them all, but it's fun to try at least a few. They all have their own personality and most of them can be that perfect bow for somebody.

Enjoy your trip to Blacktail bows on Friday!


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## azscorpion

No love for the Black Widows?


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> It's interesting how many people take a spin through the current generation of custom bows and the used market (mostly) and differ on their final choice. We have such a huge selection of great bows that nobody can really try them all, but it's fun to try at least a few. They all have their own personality and most of them can be that perfect bow for somebody.
> 
> Enjoy your trip to Blacktail bows on Friday!


? I'm not going to Blacktail bows. I would love to.


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## Edizkan

azscorpion said:


> No love for the Black Widows?


Moi? J'aime les Black Widow. Got 2.


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## Yooper-travler

Edizkan said:


> And being naughty at the traditional 3d league.
> 
> View attachment 5905033



More pics of the lovely ladies! Less of the ugly dude lol!!


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> More pics of the lovely ladies! Less of the ugly dude lol!!


There are 2 "dudes" in the picture. Which one did you call ugly?


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## Yooper-travler

The ugly one lol! Good to see you living the good life. Ladies and top notch curves.....


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## mdierker

As other have said shoot as many as you can. 

Go to etar and shoot them.

I went with RER xr with 62" @50 and [email protected] 










Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Edizkan

ETAR is definitely in my radar. I don't see Java man in the vendor list. I hope he, Chad Holm and others join as well.


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## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> ? I'm not going to Blacktail bows. I would love to.


Sorry, I was thinking of another current thread.


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## Atilliator.

I suggest you paint al your bows pink, like my favorite color and put hello kitty stikers on it :thumbs_up


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## Edizkan

Atilliator. said:


> I suggest you paint al your bows pink, like my favorite color and put hello kitty stikers on it :thumbs_up


Uhm.. Ok. Where is this coming from?


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## Atilliator.

From the bottom of my heart


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## Edizkan

Atilliator. said:


> From the bottom of my heart


Are you sure? It sounded more like it's coming from the bottom of something else. Curious why would you go out of your way and post a random weird comment to a random threat you have no contribution to...


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## Atilliator.

Ok you got me, bored.


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## Edizkan

Atilliator. said:


> Ok you got me, bored.


Now that's something I sympathize with. We're cool.


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## Atilliator.

:cheers::thumbs_up


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## Edizkan

This thread has been cooled down for a while, but I have not. Slowed down, yes, but not totally done.

There has been some changes in my selection of recurves recently and all are pleasant. 

1st, I sold the Bob Lee Signature, regretted it and traded the Border Black Douglas for another Bob Lee Bicentennial. It's the same bow as the previous Bob Lee I had, just 2" shorter (60" AMO) and 5# lighter @ 50#. I like the new bow much better. This length seems to be fitting me better than the 62" (for Bob Lee bows). I called Bob Lee bows prior to the trade and confirmed that 60" AMO with the 19" riser is perfect for 28" draw length. But one thing was confusing for me and it was the tiller. The general consensus I've been hearing from trad bow shooters and most of the bow makers is zero tiller means 3 under and 1/8" is split finger. According to Bob Lee bows, yes, 1/8" is split but 3 under is not zero, but 1/4". Regardless, the bow shoots fantastic and I am looking forward to grab an Ultimate at some point. Also, the seller (trader) told me this was one of the bows Mr. Lee made himself. 








2nd, I sold the Blacktail that wasn't fitting me right and replaced it with a Wes Wallace Mentor. A piece of advice on that: Definitely make a little research on the bow before you jump on the gun. Especially the bow AMO length and how it relates to draw lengths. Just this week I almost send money to a seller who had a Schafer Silvertip but remembered my experience with Blacktail and checked the website -the bow was short for my draw length. Wes Wallace is a really nicely made bow. It's got all the bells and whistles of a high end custom bow with cocobolo riser, osage and footed cocobolo limbs 50# and an extra set of curly maple limbs 55#. Was one of the best deals I had. I didn't have too much time to play with it but even as is, it's a great shooter. One of the guys I shoot with at the 3D tried it out and robin hooded my arrow at 20 yards. Not too happy about it but it's a good testimony to the bows performance. 








3rd: With the money from the Bob Lee sale, I got myself a nice Black Widow PCH X (Kingwood) 55# @ 28". The tiller measured zero, so I took it as a 3 under and trained myself to shoot that style. It was pretty good. The Black Widow bows are definitely a class of their own. I love the Kingwood. Even though this bow has a short 14" riser, thanks to the weight of this wood, it is very stable and solid at hand, whisper quite and very accurate. i am very tempted to complete my Widows with the addition of a PMA (18" riser) for just shooting at the league.








4th: I have a change of heart about my Toelke Chinook. I start to think that the 50's style recurves are not for me. I personally never liked longbows, and can't shoot them straight for the life of me. 50's style recurves are basically longbow risers with curved limbs. They are very light and not too forgiving. Any hand move sends the arrows in to the woods instead of the target (like this past weekend). By the way, I am comparing my own experience with heavy weight takedowns vs lightweight one piece 50's style recurves -not brand specific. I was thinking of looking into getting a Java man Tanjavur or a McCullough 59er but I am going to hold on to that idea for now. I am indecisive about keeping the bow and trying to adjust to it. 

5th: A shout out to D&M Custom Arrows of Connecticut for making me some wicked cool looking arrows. Gary Hall is a really great guy to deal with and his workmanship is spectacular. Unfortunately I broke one in the target, and lost the other in the woods. Expensive losses. 








6th: My Great Plains Swift S.R. (Cazador) reigns as my most favorite bow and moved up as my primary hunting bow for the upcoming season. It is the most accurate, dead in hand and quite bow even at 60# weight. 

So the count is still 6 - 3 out, 3 in. 

I'm still in the hunt for a 60"-62" Schafer Silvertip, and a Blacktail Elite VL 62 - 64" or a Sitka at 58 - 60"
Other recurves that grab my attention and possibly checkout at some point: RER, Marriah and Timberhawk.

If you have any of the recurves above for sale or consider a trade with my Toelke, send me a PM. 

Please also keep sharing your recurve pictures in this thread too.


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## Yooper-travler

I'm also always looking for those bows but at a much lower DW. I'll bump you if I see one. With my widows I seem to favor a 62" PMA over my 58" PCH. My Whip is perfect at 62" and I shoot my 60" bear better than my 64". My DL is 27 ish. Go figure. I will agree that BW's are in a class al by themselves. I have a PMA black and white ebony that is just as much fun to shoot as it is look at.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> I'm also always looking for those bows but at a much lower DW. I'll bump you if I see one. With my widows I seem to favor a 62" PMA over my 58" PCH. My Whip is perfect at 62" and I shoot my 60" bear better than my 64". My DL is 27 ish. Go figure. I will agree that BW's are in a class al by themselves. I have a PMA black and white ebony that is just as much fun to shoot as it is look at.


It's interesting that we favor a longer bow in one brand and a shorter in the other. Right now I kind of favor my 58" PCH over the 60" PSA. Just got a new string for the PSA from Black Widow. I'll see if that makes a difference. 

What Bear are you shooting?


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## Yooper-travler

I have a TD with three sets of limbs. Hard bow to not enjoy.


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## Edizkan

Yooper-travler said:


> I have a TD with three sets of limbs. Hard bow to not enjoy.


Nice. 

Anybody have a Cascade? Particularly Night Hawk or Black Hawk. They seem to be very solid bows. Curious how they perform. People generally buy those bows 60# and over. Cascade bow lineup


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## Edizkan

Another bowyer that I will be looking forward to seeing at the E.T.A.R this year: Wengerd Archery


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## Easykeeper

Great looking bows Edizkan, the BW is especially nice. 

I've got a Wes Wallace too, mine is a one piece. It's 64" 52#@28", cocobolo riser with an ebony stripe and yew or osage limb veneers (not sure which) and elk antler overlays and tips.


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## Edizkan

That's a gorgeous bow Easy. I need to get myself some antler knobs. Black Widow sells for their bows but was curious if there is a cheaper alternative.


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## Edizkan

Ugh! Apparently Cascade Bows stopped making bows in 2014. Trying to see if I can get a leftover stock bow. Has anybody own one? What do you guys think about them? I am particularly interested in the Night Hawk or the Super Black Hawk.


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## Edizkan

Come to papa...


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## Easykeeper

Nice! What are the specs on that baby?


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Nice! What are the specs on that baby?


Easy, this a T2 Special edition with the Elite VL riser, 66" AMO, 56#@30" (assuming it will be around 49-50 lbs @ 28"). Macassar ebony with bloodwood accents and quilted maple limbs veneers. The gentleman I bought it from is a friend with Norm Johnson and had 8-9 Blacktails from time to time. He just bought a Blacktail Columbian longbow and decided to sell from this beauty. I'm getting it with couple of strings and a Selway bolt on quiver. A very good day for me


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## Easykeeper

It's...just...plain...gorgeous...:thumbs_up

I love the wood combination, especially the quilted maple veneers.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> It's...just...plain...gorgeous...:thumbs_up
> 
> I love the wood combination, especially the quilted maple veneers.


Apparently it's just been refinished by Blacktail too. So it's in mint condition. I was bummed when I recently lost a bid for an award winning Elite Snakebit due to a hangup in ebay bidding. This is making it up.


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## Easykeeper

Yea, I think that one will do nicely. I love my Snakebits but the one you got is just as nice.

The reverse footed limbs are really growing on me. I think they look especially nice with the dark wood on the butt like yours.


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## sinko

Look at Tall Tines. I have two of the recurves.


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## Edizkan

sinko said:


> Look at Tall Tines. I have two of the recurves.


Yes, they seem to be nice too. I will try to see if I come across one at ETAR. They are not attending as vendors but some shooters may have them since they are a popular brand as well.


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## Edizkan

Had a chance to chronograph two bows yesterday. used a 500 gr Beaman ICS whiteout carbon arrow with my draw length being 28". None of the bows are put on a draw board to see the exact draw weight. That is in my bucket list (the green press with draw board attachment)

Great Plains S.R. Swift 60# => 199 fps 
Blacktail Elite VL 52# => 191 fps (52# is assumption. The limbs are listed as 56#@30". I deducted 4# for 28")

For compound bows, each +/-10 lb draw weight was equal to +/-5 fps in speed. If that is true for the recurves, Great Plains would be shooting around 195 fps at the same draw weight as the Blacktail.

I have my eyes on a 52" Turkish horse bow for a long time now and according to Grozer archery in Hungary who makes them, they reported 300+ fps speeds with their bows. I am not sure the weight and length of pull, but assume a lot.


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## Edizkan

Going to ETAR tomorrow (7 hour ride) and hoping to check out some nice bows.

A&H
Big Jim's
Black Widow (wanna try PMA)
Blacktail (want to try a Sitka)
Chise's bows
Dryad
Fedora
Great Northern
Great Plains (SR. Swift is excellent, so makes me wanna try the other models)
Java Man (Wanna try the Assyrian)
Palmer
Stalker
Timberhawk (Want to check out Strike XTS one piece)
Wolf Paw
Wengerd (Ibex 15)

Since RMS Gear will be there too, they will have a lot of stuff. I'm hoping that they bring the Schafer Silvertip they have on the site. I will hopefully post some pictures here as well.


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## herd1

Cool. Looking forward to your insights. Safe travel.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Easykeeper

I'd like to hear what they say and what you think if the Blacktail Sitka.


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## penumbra

There are some beautiful bows out there, like my Black Widow plx, and the Blacktails turn me on as do most bows mentioned here. However when it comes to a go to bow, I am going to eventually have a Omega Imperial made to my specs, hopefully sooner rather than later. You should get in touch because you can get a lot of bow for your money from Kegan. And it would truly be custom made.


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## DeerTrax

bjjofco said:


> I have a bighorn ,they are good shooters . Check out Belcher bows. Good looking but shoot Evan better
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Bighorn are good shooters and they don't stack like some bows do


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> I'd like to hear what they say and what you think if the Blacktail Sitka.


I made it to the event Saturday afternoon after a 7 1/2 hour drive. One of the tasks was to find the gentleman I bought the Java Man Tanjavur recurve at stickbow.com. We got in touch while I was an hour away to the event location and didn't think to describe what I looked like and where we should meet. Once my wife and I arrived the park, it was obvious that the attendance was big. There were cars/trucks parked along the highway. Both camping ground lots and the lots for the lumber museum across the road were full. As soon as we got out of my truck we asked a gentleman if they had facilities in the event better than the porta potties. And we marched to the ski lodge where we were supposed to call him and get my bow. The location was tucked between hills like a bowl and there was no cellphone reception. So from 1pm till 5pm it was a stressful 4 hours to find a way to reach him. I left the park and drove 4-5 miles with no luck. Found a motel and they were nice enough to let me use the phone, but my fear "hey, if it's not working for me, what are the odds he may not have any reception" came true. Went back, and literally right around 5 PM, I asked a stranger if I could use his phone to re-try. And this time it worked. We met, and son-of-a... twisted faith, he turned out to be the same gentleman we asked about the facilities 4 hours ago the moment we arrived at the park. Why I tell this? Since us trying to find him ate up a lot of my time where I couldn't try out some of the bows Saturday, and the vendors -didn't know at the time, packed up Sunday morning. But I did try some at least and very glad I did. Here are my observations:

The event:
If you are into traditional archery, this is a must-go event. I didn't have a chance to shoot in the courses, but the park, the hills, everything was so beautiful, no wonder this area is called "God's country". My wife and I were in Italy 2 weeks ago, and my wife was so impressed to see the trees, the mountain ranges and the clouds that she thought were exaggerated in Renaissance paintings were actually real. But after seeing this park and the whole ride from Rhode Island to northwest Pennsylvania, it's a great confirmation that we have it really good here.
There were a lot of traditional archery and other types of vendors in the event. You saw the bow manufacturer list I posted earlier. In addition to that, knife makers, 3D target makers, tribal arts and crafts, arrow makers, jewelry makers, soap and beauty products manufacturers, maple syrup producers, paintings and sculptures... and many more were there.

What I couldn't try (because of time):
Black Widow PMA/PSR, Stalker, Fedora, Palmer, Dryad, Wengerd 

What I tried:
Java Man Assyrian, Blacktail Sitka, Timberhawk Strike, Great Plains B Model One piece and Takedown models.

I'm not going to go one by one about my experience with each bow. What has always been true for me was no different here. I tend to like bows that are made with denser and heavier woods, with sculpted grips. That's why Great Plains won my heart and I ended up buying their B-Model takedown recurve with the "Estacado" style -Birdseye maple with Bolivian Rosewood flare and Curly maple limb veneers. I'll post the picture once I have some time. The bow had a ding in the grip which allowed me to grab it for a nice discount (Yup, Shane was pretty cool and upfront about it). Now, that doesn't mean I didn't like the other bows. I almost went for a Blacktail Sitka with tier 2 wood combination, since that combo was nice and heavy, but it was the catalog model, so I couldn't try it and I really didn't want to drop that much money on a bow I couldn't try. When I tried out the Great Plains, all my shots at 20 yards were on or around the bulls eye. No hand shock, smooth, quiet and accurate. Everything I wanted from a bow. If you do order from Great Plains, please mention my name "Edizkan" from Rhode Island to Shane. I told him that I'd recommend his bows to anyone. 

I tried the Tanjavur recurve as well. It needs some fine tuning since it slapped the heck out of my forearm multiple times. I think the brace height was wrong. But that didn't prevent me doing some trick shots at a deer target at 50 yards and a bear at 40. The deer target had a plastic bottle on his head, and the bear target had a "BFF" heart attached to it. The bow draws very smooth and shoots pretty fast. 

Next year, I will try to go there a day earlier and enjoy the shooting as well. 

So, to perhaps wrap up this thread, I found out Great Plains is overall the best bow I liked and shot the best. The next would be a toss between the Bob Lee Bicentennial and the Black Widow. I finally have the 9 great bows (possibly -2 in the near feature) in my arsenal and that's really it boys. A family photo of these great bows is due. But first some pictures from the show.


A lot of campers








Vendor tents








3D practice range








Let me help you with that plastic on your head








Nope. You are not my BFF


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## Edizkan

Great Plains tent








B-Model one piece. The one on the left has some sweet wood combination








SR Swift Takedown








New 2 piece long curves.


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## herd1

Cool. Thanks for update

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Edizkan

herd1 said:


> Cool. Thanks for update
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No problem. I am hoping I will have much better insights next time when I dedicate more time to actually tryout more bows.


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## herd1

Edizkan said:


> No problem. I am hoping I will have much better insights next time when I dedicate more time to actually tryout more bows.


Did you shoot the long curves? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Edizkan

herd1 said:


> Did you shoot the long curves?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Unfortunately I haven't. We were really limited in time and I grabbed the B-Model minutes before they started packing up.


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## Edizkan

Shot the Great Plains B-Model last night in the 3D league and scored a nice 423 points. 4 other guys shot the bow and all were very impressed. 

Now, the saying goes: Don't blame the tool, blame the carpenter... But, what if the tool is so good it makes the user of the tool more proficient? I used to experience that when I used to play the guitar. I always had crappy guitars (off brand, knockoffs) when I was young and they never sounded or handled the way I needed them until I played a Gibson Les Paul and buying a Jackson Dinky later on. They sound and felt great, which in return motivated me to play more and be better at it. I believe it's the same with shooting equipment -whether it be a primitive bow or a high grade firearm. 

Any thoughts?


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## Edizkan

I forgot this, didn't I? Pics of my Great Plains.


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## herd1

Nice

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## Easykeeper

Good looking bow!


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## Edizkan

She is. Kinda looks like it's the reverse version of Blacktail. Day and Nigth.


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## Edizkan

Curiosity again.

4 (or more) bows resemble each other a lot (in construction at least): Bob Lee, Palmer, Foley and Wapiti. I heard somewhere that Bob Lee and Palmer were partners at one point, which may explain the similarities between the two. I own a Bob Lee and it's a fantastic bow. Have you guys had a chance to explore couple of these and prefer one over the other? 

Also, would appreciate any info/comparison on Fox High Sierra takedown recurves.

Thanks


----------



## flytru

I owned several Fox High Sierras and found them to be sweet shooters with small high wrist grips. They had small narrow throats with a real ergo kinda grip.
Apparently Fox, Blacktail , WesWallace and Stalker are said to be similar [or so I have read] and besides all being Pacific NW Bowyers there was a connection through Jim Brackenbury.
I envy your road of discovery !!


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## Edizkan

Thank you very much for the input. I wasn't aware of the Brackenbury connection. I already have a Blacktail Elite and a Wes Wallace Mentor, so I'm wondering if it would it be a moot point to pursue a Fox High Sierra if it's similar to those two? But the way you described the grip, it is spot on the type of grip I like. 

Nothing to envy about my ridiculous journey really (or the hoarding for better word). Spending too much money and time with this. I thought the bows would sell easy but they really don't. 




flytru said:


> I owned several Fox High Sierras and found them to be sweet shooters with small high wrist grips. They had small narrow throats with a real ergo kinda grip.
> Apparently Fox, Blacktail , WesWallace and Stalker are said to be similar [or so I have read] and besides all being Pacific NW Bowyers there was a connection through Jim Brackenbury.
> I envy your road of discovery !!


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## mobertoky

I talked to a guy in Oregon and he suggested wengerdarchery, New full time bowyer, He is a good guy and has some beautiful bows and pretty reasonable on price and wait time. The guy in Oregon said he thinks he is one of the top bowyers out there, in his opinion. If I had the money I would have him build me a bow. At least you might want to check out his web site and face book page. His name is Trent Wengerd. (wengerdarchery.com)


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## Edizkan

I met him and saw his bows at ETAR last month. His bows are really good looking.
I wish I had the time to try them out to see how they perform. They do remind of Blacktail.



mobertoky said:


> I talked to a guy in Oregon and he suggested wengerdarchery, New full time bowyer, He is a good guy and has some beautiful bows and pretty reasonable on price and wait time. The guy in Oregon said he thinks he is one of the top bowyers out there, in his opinion. If I had the money I would have him build me a bow. At least you might want to check out his web site and face book page. His name is Trent Wengerd. (wengerdarchery.com)


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## Edizkan

Recieved this gorgeous Foley yesterday. Got it from the same guy I bought the Javaman at ETAR. It's a 62" on a 19" riser. 60# @ 28". Tillered split. Macassar ebony and cocobolo and cocobolo veneers on the limbs. I don't have the brace height and nock height info yet. Will call Ron Foley tomorrow. Bare shaft was okay.


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## Easykeeper

Nice looking bow!


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Nice looking bow!


It truly is. I love the shootability of Bob Lee bows and this definitely feels like a Bob Lee and very close to my favorite bow, Great Plains. I'm not sure about the wrap in the grip. Original owner must have kept it in the basement for a long time because it smelled mold. Took care of it with diluted bleach, cleaned the wood with Murphy's oil soap. I'm pretty sure the wrap is glued to the wood and it will be a pain in my neck to remove the glue residue if I remove it. PS. They say mayonnaise works good for removing good, but it doesn't. Afraid to use goo gone. Are there any special products you recommend to clean up and protect the wood? Murphy's oil soap is the only one that comes to my mind. I love the Orange Glo, but again, not sure if these are recommended to use on bows.


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## Edizkan

Current lineup. 9 total. From right to left: Toelke Chinook, Great Plains SR Swift, Black Widow PCHX, Black Widow PSAV, Bob Lee Bicentennial, Wes Wallace Mentor, Great Plains B Model, Foley and Blacktail T2 Elite

Couple of bows came and went: Border Black Douglas, Bob Lee Elite Signature, Blacktail Elite VL, Java Man Tanjavur, Hoyt Gamemaster II, PSE Ghost.

So, I got somewhat an idea about what I personally like and what not. I put these 9 bows through chronograph and they all ranked pretty good with the 60# Foley being the only one that broke 200 fps. The draw weights range from 47# to 60# at 28", brace heights from 7 1/2" to 8 3/4" and amo from 58" to 66". Other than Bob Lee and Black Widow PCH, all bows are tillered split and were shot split. 

Averages (3 arrows) with Gold Tip Traditional 400s, 31", 3x4" feathers, 12gr nock, 125gr field point, 62gr insert weight, total 495gr arrow weight.

From fastest to the slowest. Also pay attention to contributing factors - brace height and poundage. 

Model - AMO - Poundage @ 28" - Brace height - Speed

Foley - 62", 60#, 7 3/4", *199* fps (2 shots were 200 fps)
Great Plains SR Swift - 58", 60#, 8 1/2", *193* fps _(haven't tested with the 50# limbs)_
Toelke Chinook - 58", 55#, 7 1/2", *191 *fps
Wes Wallace Mentor - 62", 55#, 7 3/4", *189 *fps_ (haven't tested with the 50# limbs)_
Blacktail T2 Elite - 66", 52#, 7 1/2", *183 *fps
Bob Lee Bicentennial - 60", 50#, 7 7/8", *181 *fps
Black Widow PCH X - 58", 55#, 8 1/2" *179 *fps
Black Widow PSA V - 60", 49#, 8 3/4" *178 *fps
Great Plains B Model - 62", 47#, 8 1/4", *174 *fps

So, no surprises here. The heavier bows with the shorter brace height shot faster while the lighter bows with generous brace heights shot slower. All bows were whisper quite and vibration free. 

Let me know if you guys want to know more about these bows.


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## Easykeeper

That's a fine group of bows. Aren't the classifieds fun?


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> That's a fine group of bows. Aren't the classifieds fun?


Thanks. They are way too fun. I had to stop looking or this would have been twice as much. Still looking for a Schafer to complete my collection though. Signed up for Facebook fan page and they have been posting some nice ones, just not my specs.


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## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> Thanks. They are way too fun. I had to stop looking or this would have been twice as much. Still looking for a Schafer to complete my collection though. Signed up for Facebook fan page and they have been posting some nice ones, just not my specs.


Here's a little tease, a matched set (almost) of TD and one piece Silvertip recurves. I sent them blocks of cocobolo and koa, they sent me back a couple of bows. I did have to kick in a few bucks...:wink:


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Here's a little tease, a matched set (almost) of TD and one piece Silvertip recurves. I sent them blocks of cocobolo and koa, they sent me back a couple of bows. I did have to kick in a few bucks...:wink:


Man, those are the most beautiful Silvertips I have seen. Now that I am staring at the Silvertips more often, I can see one distinct feature - the way the shelf window is cut. Most other bows are tapered and narrower while Silvertips have wider shelf windows. More pronounced in the takedown than the one piece.


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## herd1

Outstanding. Nice rack!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Edizkan

Saw a gentleman post a recurve bow for sale in Facebook. The brand is Black Ram Traditions and the bowyers name is Paul Schwartz. They look amazing. What do you think?


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## comprar

I love my bob lee but timberhawks are awfully nice also.


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## Easykeeper

Nice looking bow but I don't know anything about them.


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## Edizkan

Easykeeper said:


> Nice looking bow but I don't know anything about them.


Apparently the gentleman has been doing this for a while and gave a long break. He is back building them again.


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## Belicoso

Edizkan said:


> Saw a gentleman post a recurve bow for sale in Facebook. The brand is Black Ram Traditions and the bowyers name is Paul Schwartz. They look amazing. What do you think?


Nice.
Always wanted one.
He is building bows for many years.
I think he advertised in TBM in the early 90's.


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## Edizkan

Belicoso said:


> Nice.
> Always wanted one.
> He is building bows for many years.
> I think he advertised in TBM in the early 90's.


And he says the prices are from $600 to $1500. Not bad for a brand new custom bow.


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## Halfcawkt

Look into cleland stickbows. His static recurve is awesome! I also shoot with Paul. I can vouch for the fact he is a great guy and I would rather support a guy like him than many bigger outfits. He is just a guy that has been making bows for a while and just quit his day job, which was at Rocky Mountain specialty gear btw, to make bows full time while trying to support a family. I would not talk him up if I wasn't familiar with his bows.


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## oldmand

I'd like to second the suggestion to visit the Wengerd Archery site. Met Trent at ETAR this past summer. Besides being a very personable young man, he makes one beautiful bow. If I wasn't into longbows at the current time, he'd be making me a custom recurve right now. Shot one of his bows at the time and had everything I could do to not open my wallet and purchase that one. He had a lot of lookers at his booth, right across from Greg Coffey.
I predict he'll have a long bowyering career. He is quite a hunter also. Has taken many of the western big game species. Knows what a hunter wants in a recurve.


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## Edizkan

oldmand said:


> I'd like to second the suggestion to visit the Wengerd Archery site. Met Trent at ETAR this past summer. Besides being a very personable young man, he makes one beautiful bow. If I wasn't into longbows at the current time, he'd be making me a custom recurve right now. Shot one of his bows at the time and had everything I could do to not open my wallet and purchase that one. He had a lot of lookers at his booth, right across from Greg Coffey.
> I predict he'll have a long bowyering career. He is quite a hunter also. Has taken many of the western big game species. Knows what a hunter wants in a recurve.


I was at ETAR this summer as well and met with Trent. Very nice guy and definitely makes beautiful bows. 

I feel like I need to repeat this over an over again, which is a good thing, all the bowyers I have met or interacted with are some of the greatest people. I don't really know what it is, working with wood and building a masterpiece equipment must give them some kind of peace and tranquility.

I originally asked for recurve suggestions 10 months ago, received tons of them, researched, called the bowyers, bought and sold a significant amount of bows, went to ETAR and I have not one single custom bow maker that I wouldn't recommend. if you know what you like, what type of bow fits you the best, then you can't really go wrong with any of the suggestions people have posted here.


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## Easykeeper

Edizkan said:


> I was at ETAR this summer as well and met with Trent. Very nice guy and definitely makes beautiful bows.
> 
> I feel like I need to repeat this over an over again, which is a good thing, all the bowyers I have met or interacted with are some of the greatest people. I don't really know what it is, working with wood and building a masterpiece equipment must give them some kind of peace and tranquility.
> 
> I originally asked for recurve suggestions 10 months ago, received tons of them, researched, called the bowyers, bought and sold a significant amount of bows, went to ETAR and I have not one single custom bow maker that I wouldn't recommend. if you know what you like, what type of bow fits you the best, then you can't really go wrong with any of the suggestions people have posted here.


I've found the same to be true, a very fine bunch of people.


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## ChadMR82

I saw you were interested in shooting a Timberhawk. I love my Timberhawk and would never get rid of it. I have had a lot of custom bows, but my Timberhawk will always have a place to call home with me. It is average on speed, but SMOOTH and quiet. The grip is very repeatable and fills the hand nicely. Closest thing I would compare it to out of your current stable would be the Great Plains but with a better grip, and smoother.


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## Edizkan

ChadMR82 said:


> I saw you were interested in shooting a Timberhawk. I love my Timberhawk and would never get rid of it. I have had a lot of custom bows, but my Timberhawk will always have a place to call home with me. It is average on speed, but SMOOTH and quiet. The grip is very repeatable and fills the hand nicely. Closest thing I would compare it to out of your current stable would be the Great Plains but with a better grip, and smoother.


I shot one in ETAR -one piece. It was a nice bow. The one I shot had this on the limb: Genesis 27-3


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## Edizkan

Well, it's been a while I haven't posted anything new here, for a reason. Right before the new year I broke my hand and literally got screwed -as in, I had surgery and they put a permanent titanium screw in my hand. When I broke my hand, I also messed up my wrist, knuckles, tendons, nerves... etc. So the recovery has been very slow and painful. Still can't make a good fist with my right (dominant) hand. Started therapy couple of weeks back and what a reality shift that has been. Before the incident, I was working out, -not like a body builder, but healthy and strong. Lifting 30lb dumbbells pulling 60# recurves, 70#+ compounds like there is nothing. Now, I can not wrist lift a 2lb dumbbell for more than 4-5 times. 4 weeks into therapy, I can only squeeze 46lb of pressure while with my left hand 95lb. 

So I decided to let go of my bows and listed and already sold a couple here, and I don't know when I will be able to go back to shooting a bow. I am most likely going to hunt with a rifle or a crossbow this year -if I can hunt at all. I hope I can recover from this as soon as possible.


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## herd1

Man that's aweful. Here's to a speedy, healthy recovery. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## sawtoothscream

Dang, sorry to hear about the hand. Wish you a quick and full recovery.


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## Yooper-travler

Sorry to hear this. I was hit head on in January and suffered a fractured elbow and neck. Titanium is now a close friend. Today I worked up to 38 pounds. I hope you get there brother. Good luck. Bump me if you want to borrow a set of 25# ers to help you work up.


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## Easykeeper

That's bad news, sorry to hear it. I saw one of your adds and had an idea you were hurt.

Good luck in your recovery. The good thing is you can always come back, even if it takes a few years to do it.


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## kentsabrina

Edizkan said:


> AT folk;
> 
> I need suggestions based on personal experience, both good and bad. I've been shooting recurves for a long time now, but have been in the low end, mass produced bows that are basically all look like manufactured by the same Asian company (you know where I am going with that, so I'll stop right there).
> 
> I haven't shot too many custom recurves other than Black Widow and Bob Lee, and recently got a Black Widow. I love it. Bob Lee, was okay. Nothing wrong, shoots good, but wasn't a love at first sight like Black Widow. Now I am eyeing for another recurve to add my inventory and boy are there so many great bowyers. Here is what I want:
> 
> I want a hunting takedown recurve, not a target. So it shouldn't be longer than 64", ideally 60-62".
> I am comfortable 50# to 60# draw weight @28".
> Performance of the bow - smoothness, speed, noise are most important about the bow than the looks. But hey, we don't want an ugly duck either, right?
> A still in business bowyer/company where I can send the bow for refinishing or get additional limbs.
> 
> Blacktail bows look amazing, and people seem to really like them. How do they stack up to other custom recurve bows as far as performance goes? Let's say them vs Blak Widow and Bob Lee (2 bows I can relate to). I've been researching them and other companies like Schafer Silvertip, Stalker, Great Plains, Wapiti, Blackriver, Acadian, Border, Foley, etc. Any information on those? I know Bighorn as a company doesn't exist anymore, but the bows are out there. Would you buy them?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Bodnik Hunter Recurve from Bearpaw
http://www.bearpaw-blog.com/new_bodnik_hunter_recurve_is_online/

literally an updated n refined version of a Bear Grizzly, with pistol grip n speed kill bamboo limbs, high performance string compatibility...but cheaper in price not quality.

https://www.thelongbowshop.com/products/bodnik-hunter-recurve-field-bow-custom


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## destroyer 259

If you want a one-off custom bow that really shoots well you should look up Leon Stewart at Stewart archery.com he will make you what you want and nobody else will have the same bow


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## Don_Parsons

Stay positive my friend, life sometime sucks, so we adapt to these challanges that come along. 

I've battled 4 major set backs, a left Elbow, splinter left wrist. 

Right shoulder rotto cuff mussel, and broken clivical / collar bone on the right side,,, oh,,, and 7 back injuries. 

Yes, I ain't pulling back the 80 lb compound bow no more, but I'm not going to give in on something I enjoy. 

If I have to adapt, then so be it. 

My 35 lb recurve is giving me a work out, my new bow is coming with 30 lb'er limbs, and if I have to,,, I'll drop less than this "if" I have to. 

Archery is my source of therapy and exercise, it forces us to push forward. And visiting and sharing some of of skills with others keeps our minds fresh on tasks worth sharing. 

Take it 1 day at a time Ed.

All of us see challanges in life, some of them we don't expect,,, but if the Zen of archey is deep with in,,, then we slug forward the best we can. 

PS: I shared this on another thread the other day,,, no one said that we can't shoot our bows from either side of our bodies. 

We learned to throw a baseball at the age of 4 with our dominant arm,,, just happens to be that with the right mind set that we can do this with our other arm just as well. 

We won't know this until we try. 

From ambidextrous shooter Pal Don


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## Edizkan

Tanks for the support and good wishes. Much appreciated.


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## flytru

Well Ed. its been interesting to follow your journey for sure !!
Have ordered a WesWallace with envy and I really hope it will be the one for me.
Follow the Dr's orders regarding rehab and let the 3/6---12 month situation dictate what you need to do, I bounced back from spinal surgery [titanium reinforcing rods/cables] ,sold all my bows , moved up to 35# and now back to 48&50#
ILF is a good way to get multiple weights cheaper which works well in rehabbing
Cheers from Australia, get well
>>>---flytru--->


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## kentsabrina

Edizkan said:


> Well, it's been a while I haven't posted anything new here, for a reason. Right before the new year I broke my hand and literally got screwed -as in, I had surgery and they put a permanent titanium screw in my hand. When I broke my hand, I also messed up my wrist, knuckles, tendons, nerves... etc. So the recovery has been very slow and painful. Still can't make a good fist with my right (dominant) hand. Started therapy couple of weeks back and what a reality shift that has been. Before the incident, I was working out, -not like a body builder, but healthy and strong. Lifting 30lb dumbbells pulling 60# recurves, 70#+ compounds like there is nothing. Now, I can not wrist lift a 2lb dumbbell for more than 4-5 times. 4 weeks into therapy, I can only squeeze 46lb of pressure while with my left hand 95lb.
> 
> So I decided to let go of my bows and listed and already sold a couple here, and I don't know when I will be able to go back to shooting a bow. I am most likely going to hunt with a rifle or a crossbow this year -if I can hunt at all. I hope I can recover from this as soon as possible.
> 
> View attachment 6419921




didn't catch the injury update, sorry for recommending u a bow at this point without knowing.

I used to train very hard in kyokushin karate n boxing, so I am not a stranger to hand injury.

Did u try to rice massage method to speed up hand's recovery? its a common practice in boxing~for fractured hand rehab, some use beans/corns, but I personally feel rice is much much much better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P344cJRjBvw

at normal time, u can tie a bundle of hemp rope and use it as a grip training tools, just grip and relax, grip n relax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dol99aqhivA
just like the hay bundle in 5:53


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## kentsabrina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26jo_r1UQew

**do not do the rest of the conditioning in the video**

~but 0:36 - 1:03 is also a good rehab exercise for fractured hand (do it much slower n adjust the grip intensity @ ur comfort, and dont flip out the fingers that harsh like the karateka did in the vid)

~the rock bucket of course is the same concept of the rice massage method, but with abrasive purpose of conditioning, so of course u cant use rock, just use rice.


if u concern the risk n effectiveness of those methods, u can show them to ur surgeon or therapist for advice, but as far as I understood from years of combat sports training, modern physiotherapy shares many same/similar methods.

BTW I am not a professional medical personnel...but ur scan seems a bit weird ~ why the two pieces of fractured bone weren't join back on a same alignment but offset like it does now? Is it a more solid way of attaching bones?

To good health.


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## Edizkan

kentsabrina said:


> didn't catch the injury update, sorry for recommending u a bow at this point without knowing.
> 
> I used to train very hard in kyokushin karate n boxing, so I am not a stranger to hand injury.
> 
> Did u try to rice massage method to speed up hand's recovery? its a common practice in boxing~for fractured hand rehab, some use beans/corns, but I personally feel rice is much much much better
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P344cJRjBvw
> 
> at normal time, u can tie a bundle of hemp rope and use it as a grip training tools, just grip and relax, grip n relax
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dol99aqhivA
> just like the hay bundle in 5:53


No worries. I'm glad you did recommend a bow, since this is at this point more about suggestions and showcase to a general audience than myself. 

Thanks for the videos and suggestions. I do have a rice massage - grip and carry to another bucket for my therapy regimen along with wrist strengthening, tendon and scar tissue massage, stretch exercises and playing with putty (my favorite). 

Ah, that scan is killing me too and asked it a dozen times to the surgeon. The best answer I get is that it is "better" that way and that the bone will form around it, eliminating jagged edges within 3 to 6 months. From the side angle, the alignment looks perfect. I am seeing him in 2 weeks and we should be looking at new x-rays. The major problem I have is the stiffness of the pinky finger because it was in cast and then splint for a month. Trying to regain the flexibility and strength back on that one, plus the wrist is not bending back like it used to. So, I got multiple stuff going on and one hinges the recovery of the other, so I am attacking them all at once. 

Thanks again


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## Edizkan

flytru said:


> Well Ed. its been interesting to follow your journey for sure !!
> Have ordered a WesWallace with envy and I really hope it will be the one for me.
> Follow the Dr's orders regarding rehab and let the 3/6---12 month situation dictate what you need to do, I bounced back from spinal surgery [titanium reinforcing rods/cables] ,sold all my bows , moved up to 35# and now back to 48&50#
> ILF is a good way to get multiple weights cheaper which works well in rehabbing
> Cheers from Australia, get well
> >>>---flytru--->


You won't regret ordering a Wes Wallace. I am selling mine right now for the obvious reason. Shooting that bow was amazing. It's a top performer and great craftsmanship, plus Wes is a great guy to talk to. I let a gentleman try it when I first got it. His second shot was a Robin Hood at 20 yards. It was the first time he did it, despite that he is an older retired police officer who have been shooting hunting most of his life and almost always wins the indoor tournaments he attends to. He is still asking me about the bow but not willing to pay for it  

I am going to take it slow and easy. I have decided not to rush getting back to archery. This year I probably won't hunt deer, even with a crossbow, since the actual workout is carrying the animal out the woods, or climbing on a tree. But my wife decided to treat me with a guided hunt, so I booked one down in Missouri. Hoping to put my Weatherby Vanguard in good use. And I sure will be hunting waterfowl and turkey.


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