# PSE Coyote?



## yafayu (Apr 14, 2004)

Hi, I've been use my PSE Bruin(compound) for 2 years, and i just sold it today because i'm switching back to the recurve (love recurve bows)

Anyways, i've been looking around for a while and really like the PSE Coyote because it has the solid of a compound and the fun of a recurve, also this bow is easy to take apart so i decided to get it. I haven't try the bow yet but I have few questions to ask before i buy and thank you for taking time to read my questions!!

1. Anyone has experience on Coyote? how is it?
2. If I buy used on eBay can i still have the warranty?
3. I want to start at 45lb but can i buy heavier limbs later?


Thank you! and hope i'm not asking stupid questions here..


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## vermonster13 (Sep 18, 2004)

Actually they are all good questions. Your results with the Coyote will vary. Personally, if you want a metal riser and limb interchangability, take a look at the Quinns. For less than the coyote, you get a much better bow in my experience.


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## Beagle (Mar 26, 2006)

I've never owned one but I've read reviews---Solid bow, brace height a little lower than usual because of the riser so watch your arm, cut past centershot which should give you good fletch clearance and tunability. I've thought about one myself. Good luck


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

Mate,don't do it.
No kidding I have one,it's a pile of junk.
any other metal riser recurve would be a better buy.
They would have to be,the Coyote is a DOG.
I'm selling mine soon,an I feel guilty as heck about it.
I'll probably ask $50 an hope the new owner never catches up with me.
I bought this peice of rubbish sight unseen from a PSE cataloge,an now I'll never buy another PSE bow.
As far as I'm concerned PSE should be ashamed of themselves for doing this to people.


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## yafayu (Apr 14, 2004)

Thank you all for helping me! Yes, i've heard some negative review on PSE Coyote, include noisy, bad design and etc. Jack NZ, can you go more detail why Coyote such a rubbish? i don't hunt so noisy won't be a issue for me..

When you guys saying "limb interchangability" what does that mean? do you mean i can get heavier limbs from same company or i can get limbs from other company?:darkbeer:

Which brand make "Quinns"?


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

The Coyote doesn't have the right geometry to make a good shooting recurve bow -- for one thing the grip is too far behind the limbs (torque)

http://www.quinnsarchery.com there is the link for Quinn's Archery, it is THE best bow for the $ out there. Good workmanship, a few options, good performance and very accurate. tradtalk.com is a dealer.

I have a Stallion for hunting and 3D and a Comet XL for target shooting.

Hank


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## dgf41 (May 26, 2006)

I Have a freind that had one. It wasa noisy and one of the limbs started to 
crack. He called PSE and they sent a new set of limbs. They were cracked when they arrived, sent them back and got another set that cracked the first weekend. Sent them back and got two more sets that also had cracks in them right out of the box. Sold the bow. The cracks were from the bolt hole to the edge of the bow. this guy has been shooting recuves 40+ years and is one of the most knowledgable shooters around our here. He went back to a onr piece wooden recurve.


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## Beagle (Mar 26, 2006)

I guess that answers your questions Yafa--I won't be getting one either.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I shot a Coyote owned by the local Pro Shop off and on and there were a number of specific things I didn't like about it. The riser is a compound riser and does not have the feel or balance of a regular recurve. Of course, if you're use to shooting a compound, that may not be a negative for you. The grip/arrow rest portion of the riser is set way back towards the string. This combined with a very light string tension at brace (not draw) makes for an incredible amount of wrist slap close to your hand, worse than any longbow I've ever shot. This occurs at factory the recommended brace height, 5 1/2" as I recall. I tried twisting the string up to raise the brace height but then ran into a substantial amount of stacking in the limbs. The limbs felt like they stacked quickly at the recommended brace height and increasing brace was terrible. The bow didn't seem to shoot very fast, not that I dwell on that, although I didin't chronograph it. A lot of my favorite bows are far from speed demons but slow and sloppy just doesn't do it for me. There are a few good things to be said for the Coyote; 1) the price - good price 2) aluminum riser - seem like a really tough metal riser with lots of centershot for setting up an arrow rest and holes for stabilizers, sights, etc. 3) availability - don't have to wait a year to get one, any PSE dealer can get one quickly 4) lastly, I have read posts by some who like the Coyote and enjoy shooting it. If it looks, feels and shoots good for you, that's about all you can ask for. Other opinions don't really matter if you like it.


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## Ia Hawkeye (Mar 3, 2005)

*Pse coyote*

I agree with many others. The Quinn Stallion is a GREAT bow! I really like mine.You can get one to your door for right at $200. 
I tried the Coyote and compared to the Quinn, it's a piece of crap ! (sorry you Coyote owners)


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## zbangg (May 4, 2004)

*PSE Coyote*

I purchased a used PSE Coyote for $125.00 TYD from a seller. I received the bow as scheduled, strung it, put a shelf rest on it, step outside onto my personal bow range, fired one arrow, reset the brace height, fired another arrow, checked the results with a third arrow, and then went straight to Ebay and posted the bow the same night. Couldn't wait to sell it. I truely love PSE Bows, but not this one. This should be used only for bowfishing. 
This is my personal opinion and hopefully this will help you make a better decision.


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## yafayu (Apr 14, 2004)

thanks guys!! I think this's end of the story ---- PSE Coyote SUCKS::zip:

How about Hoyt Gamemaster? it seems better compare to PSE Coyote?


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

Game master is WAYYYYYYYYYY better from what I have heard. But for the price the Quinn is a MUCH better value. The game master is not much (If any) better than the Quinn Stallion.


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## yafayu (Apr 14, 2004)

yea, the gamemaster is litter more pricy but worth the money for sure


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

The limb angle on the Quinn is more straight up than the Gamemaster, so it is a better performing bow. The grip is still forward so you do not lose any stability. David Sosa who makes the DAS recurve said that the Quinn limbs are probably the finest wood/glass limbs being built today. He deals with alot of different Olympic limbs that he mounts on his risers (and tests them)

I shot a Gamemaster and liked it, but the Quinn is smoother and faster. Someday I would like to get a Gamemaster riser, put a set of Quinn limbs on it and jack the angle up a bit to tweak some more RPMS out of it.

Hank


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Say What*

PERSONALY the hoyt is the best for the buck . I have never seen any spec on the quinn for speed and what model are we talking about that is smoother and faster than the gamemaster, also look at fit and finish , the quinn does not compare from the pictures I`ve seen.... just my opinion, does any one have some crony specs with all of the info to back these , like arrow weight, bow weight and draw length. etc etc.... this is not a attack on the quinn but for a 200 dollar bow all that I`ve heard is good... :darkbeer:


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## yafayu (Apr 14, 2004)

one more question about the riser, let's say i buy any riser can i put Quinn or other hoyt limbs on my riser? how are they gonna fit are they have same platform. Sorry I shot recurve when i was 13 and went for compound i think i gonna relearn all this again!

I checked on Quinn's website but where can i buy or see their bow in Toronto, Canada? can i buy them online I really want one since everyone is saying is great i don't think i can go wrong with it!

Thank you all again, I'm learning alot of thing from you guys everyday!:tongue:


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

The Hoyt looks cooler for sure!! But from all I have read the Quinn is just as good if not better than the Hoyt. Now thats just what I have heard, I have never shot either one. But I am going to get one or the other and have been reading for about a month now on everything I could find on both bows. And the consistent theme is get a Quinn. And since its $200 cheaper its looking pretty good to me!:wink:


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

The Quinn has about a 2.5 pound per inch draw -- Pinelander tested a Warf (Bear Riser/Carbon Limbs) a Hoyt Gamemaster and a Quinn Stallion. The Quinn was very close to the Hoyt (couple fps off), but the Hoyt was #8 heavier. The Quinn was #46 (@29?) and the Bear had to be cranked up to #51 to hang with the Quinn and even then, the Quinn pulled away with heavier arrows.

The whole deal is the limb angle, when Quinn limbs are mounted on a Bear Riser, the weight usually drops #8 from what they are marked and need to be shimmed to up the weight. The Hoyt also has a lower angle that does not make it a screamer. 

Many who get the Hoyt switch out the limbs for some Oly Carbons and say the performance and shootability improve noticably. Dave of DAS offered a kit to change the OLY limbs to they would mount on a Gamemaster Riser, not sure if he still does.

The Quinn's daughter was the #1 female archer in the country back in the 90's and tied Denise Parker for 1st place at the USA Indoor World Trials. Parker was using the latest OLY setup, Terry Quinn was shooting a Quinn Stallion. Many have balked at the price and questioned the quality of these bows -- they are the real deal and are very well designed and made.

I should mention I shot my #45 64" Quinn Stallion through a chronograph last year (carbon arrows around 9 gr per pound) Thats [email protected] and was getting 188-189fps. I shot my buddies 60" Fedora that was [email protected] through the chrono right after shooting mine and it was shooting 183-184 fps, same arrows.

Hank


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Edward Vargas of Sure Shot Archery shoots a full decked out Quinn Comet XL, 68" and I think #37. The arrows he shoots out of that bow are to stiff for his other OLY set up that has Hoyt Carbon limbs and is #5 heavier in draw weight.

Edward took 2nd at the Texas State indoors last year with his Quinn.

I know it isn't possible because the more something costs and the cooler it looks, it just has to be better -- I mean isn't that the law?

Hank


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## hardgainer (Feb 25, 2005)

This is sure a interesting thread the Coyote must be among the most maligned shooter's around. I have had one (55# @ AUD $290) in my stable for about 2 years. After tinkering set at a brace height of 6.5 " fitted a flemish fastflite and layed a little chamois over the limb grooves. Set up with a Cavalier springy it sends those CXL2's out like a rocket for my field work . Guess I must be one of the lucky one's :wink:


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

yafayu said:


> Thank you all for helping me! Yes, i've heard some negative review on PSE Coyote, include noisy, bad design and etc. Jack NZ, can you go more detail why Coyote such a rubbish? i don't hunt so noisy won't be a issue for me..
> 
> When you guys saying "limb interchangability" what does that mean? do you mean i can get heavier limbs from same company or i can get limbs from other company?:darkbeer:
> 
> Which brand make "Quinns"?


Ok,first off,I really shouldn't of said exactly what I did,I could of been more diplomatic and I appoligise to any Coyote owners that I may of insulted.

My own experience with this bow has however been anything but happy,not by any means all the fault of PSE either.
I bought my bow from a cataloge sight unseen through a local dealer, that I'll no longer do business with.
I payed up front an was told I'd get a call as soon as it arrived.
Six weeks later I rang the shop to be told it had already been in for two weeks. 
When I picked it up I noticed it seemed to have a slightly twisted limb.
I mentioned this to the shop owner and was told it would be fine,I didn't like this an asked if I could get a replacement limb.NO!!
OK,so I take it home and try to tune it, first noisy is an understatement and I get my wrist with almost every shot.I think I can sort out the noise but the hiting of the wrist is a problem.I have three other curves an none of them do this.The next day I put on some limb savers and cat whiskers,better but I'm never going to hunt with it like it is.
Then I hear a crack as I draw it.
Great, the bottem limb has let go,not the one with the slight twist.
So I ring the shop,he tells me he will ring PSE an get back to me,after a week I ring him.He tells me he's getting another limb,should be here in a month.A month later I ring him again,he tells me he won't order the limb until he's seen the bow for himself.
Fair enough, but he could of said that the first time I rang him,he claims not to remember our previous conversation.
I ask him how he knows what I'm talking about then.
He tells me he doesn't like my attitude and doesn't want my business.
I jump on my bike an turn up at his shop an hour or so later "it's over 100kms from my place"
I march into the shop an ask if he still has a problem with my attitude,oddly enough he doesn't.
A month later my new limb complete with new crack finaly turns up.
We have a heated conversation because I want my money back.
He tells me he'll get another new limb but I'm not getting any money out of him.
After another month I ring him again,,,the phones disconnected.
I go to the shop,,,the shops disconnected,,,I ask around.
I find he has opened a shop in another town three hours away.
I march into the new shop an grab another Coyote he has on the shelf,remove the limb I want an ask him if he has a problem with this.
He doesn't.
So back home we go,still noisy as,still whacks my wrist,,an I now don't really like this bow much anyway.
It's hung on my wall for two years now an the only time I think about it,is when somebody on AT or a similar site asks a question about them.
When that happens I can't stop the the hair standing up on the back of my neck or the cold shiver that runs up my back.
I don't know why PSE still lists these things,after all they do make a couple of good recurves.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I should probably add that I'm a bit of a PSE fan. I think their Elite carbon limbs are a great deal. I had some limbs problems with a set of inexpensive PSE recurve limbs are they replaced them promptly. Their customer service is top notch and shouldn't be confused with local pro shop service. I think the PSE Intrepid riser is super. I've never shot the X-Factor but have heard good things about it. The Coyote is an inexpensive bow and I seem to enjoy their premium bows a lot better, but you pay for the experience. 

I have a GameMaster and think it's a lot of bow for the money. The factory limbs are just fine. You can get better limbs but the factory limbs will do most anything you want them to do. Remember, it's the person behind the bow, not the bow, that makes the shot.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Speeds*

MY GAMEMASTER 50 LB AT 28 INCHES WITH CARBON ARROWS, AND CHARLES MY FRIEND WITH 29 INCH DRAW we cronyed the bow at 247 fps for six arrows in a row maybe 1/2 fps difference stock limbs just a thought when you go looking for speed and no need to change limbs as these shoot sweet...


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Coyote's are not worth their weight in aluminum.

Though they shoot fine, they are some of the worse built bows I have seen... the noise is loud enough that if the arrow misses the deer, the deer will die from noise fright. (which could be an advantage for some folks  )

Dwayne


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## yafayu (Apr 14, 2004)

that's a sad experience...i used to go to a shop like that i feel the same thing:thumbs_do 

I also go to the PSE forum and it's funny that most people think Coyote is a good bow..lol


Jack NZ said:


> Ok,first off,I really shouldn't of said exactly what I did,I could of been more diplomatic and I appoligise to any Coyote owners that I may of insulted.
> 
> My own experience with this bow has however been anything but happy,not by any means all the fault of PSE either.
> I bought my bow from a cataloge sight unseen through a local dealer, that I'll no longer do business with.
> ...


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

*Classichunter*

Your GM was getting 247 fps????????? Man, how light was your arrow?? Thats about the fastest I have ever heard a recurve shoot. Thats one sweet GM if it really shoots that fast.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*the truth be told*

YES 247 AND i HAVE WITNESSES TO VERIFY THAT SPEED . MY 45 pounder with my 1614 which is what i shoot indoor 3-ds with, and I only pull 26 inches which makes it 38 to 39 lbs of bow shoots a amazing 188 fps for 38lbs this again is on a good chrony and shot at 2 different pro shops on 2 different cronys with the same speed. these puppies are fast and sweet to shoot, and durable as heck...... these are x7s with a 8% nibb and 3 inch feathers. all of you gamemaster owners shoot lighter arrows for 3-d and you`ll be surprised when your scores go up. Form is an issue here with 3 inch feathers practise practise practise..... and I even use stock string and beaver balls and off the shelf to boot.....


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Classic - 

We've been through this before. 188 fps isn't uncommon for a 6.8 gr/lb arrow from any decent bow, and the 247 fps you keep quoting is with a 5.1 gr/lb arrow - that's unsafe. If you've had luck with it, great, enjoy, but it's not a good idea telling others it's a safe practice as you're basically dry-firing the bow. Doubt you'll be replacing anyone's bow when it fails. There's a reason most reputable bowyers recommend a minumum of 8 gr/lb, some won't guarantee a bow if used with less.

Viper1 out.


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

Ok, now it makes more sense how you got 247fps. 5.1 gpp iws VERYYY light for a recurve. I was trying to find out about shooting light arrows a while back in another thread but I was wanting to go down to low 8's and I thought that was light. I have sense seen the light and I am shooting a 10 gpp arrow and its shooting sweet!!!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Don`t Quote Unless You Know*

VIPER
DID I MENTION THE WEIGHT OF MY ARROWS EVER NO NO NO PLEASE READ POSTS CAREFULLY AS STATED BY YOU IN PREVIOUS POSTS thanks the words Ithink I said where shoot lighter arrows . the only time I mentioned 5 grains per inch was when I said I shoot arrows over the legal limit for 3 -d which is 5 grains per inch , If you do the #`s I said my 45 lber which I pull to about 39 lbs with a 62 grain nibb would make the arrow feathers and nock only weigh in the neighbour hood of 139 grains , sorry I don`t think so . also I said shoot lighter arrows , I did not mention what weight. As you know fita shooters shoot pencils and equipement failure is very rare, as you also have the same old roughly 1972 easton arrow chart or a bit later the weights I quote aren`t far off. Please don`t take this as personal attack. but this what I shoot and have for over a year, no equipement failures and the 2 bows I have owned have at least no kidding here, 5 thousand shots and are quite fine.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Classic 

A 27" 1614 raw weighs 208 grs raw + 62 gr nibb, + 20 gr flect/nock etc = 290 gr. 290/38 = 7.6 (if your using a 26" arrow 7.3), is that closer? Again, what I said was that was not an unreasonable speed for an arrow that light. Pretty average for a decent bow set up correctly for target work. One of my FITA bows tuned for speed: #48 with a 365 gr arrow (also 7.6 gr / lb) chronos at 215, most are in the 190s. 

Now re: the 247, I was using your estimate from a previous post for arrow weight - and that was 5.1 grs / lb. You really have to stop relying on the IBO stuff, it was intended for compounds, not stickbows. 

Fita bows are a different animal (whether you chose to believe that or not) and most of the guys are in the 7 to 8 grs / ibs range, even with the skinnies. No one goes to 5 or 6. (Well, there might be one I haven't heard about - but you get the point.)

Classic, I don't take 5000 shots/yr as that much, I shoot around 5000 arrows a month. so do a lot of the serious target guys. That's not an exageration either. Again, if you want to take the chance, great - I wouldn't and I'd be very concerned about a new guy who doesn't know any better trying it. Even if the bow didn't fail (sooner or later), without some careful tuning the arrow, even a 1614 from a #38 bow, would go ballistic.

Viper1 out.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*your choice*

VIPER
AGAIN I SAID GO LIGHTER AND DID NOT SAY WHAT ARROWS OR WEIGHT. AND YES I DID THE CALCULATIONS ON SHOTS PER YEAR, so many per day per month per year and yes my bows probably have 3 times what i said more like 15 thousand shots. no failures. this is not a pi--ing match. but please don`t try to put words in my mouth as I did not say what you said thanks and please keep this in mind for the future. And again I ask are you going to DENTON as I would love to put a face to the voice and share a cup of joy.....


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Classic -- I have seen the Gamemaster numbers you have posted before (247 fps) and while I am not disputing them, it would be nice to know the particulars of the string material/strand count, arrow type and weight, draw length and tab/glove used. Just a good tab and release can gain 10 fps.

Like I have said, Pinelander tested a Gamemaster and a Quinn Stallion and the Stallion was only about 2 fps slower than the Gamemaster and the Gamemaster was #8 heavier. He used 4 or 5 different arrow types/weights to see how they both performed over that spectrum.

Nothing wrong with a light arrow, as I believe great arrow flight is the key to great penetration, not neccessarily heavy arrows, it would just be nice to know more about how you are attaining these speeds.

While performance is important, I primarily look for stability, forgiveness and accuracy in a bow. Some of that has to do with the archer, some with setup and some inherent in the bow design. The average distance of 3D ranges today -- speed is way over rated.

Hank


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## Recurvanator (May 25, 2006)

A question a little off topic but not really. One would think that even at 39#, wouldn't the shorter power stroke of a 26" draw rob some fps from the bow? Somewhat like a cross bow.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rec - 

Yes. The two biggest factors concerning arrow speed are arrow weight and draw length, not necessarily in that order. The interesting part is the shorter the draw length, typically the shorter the arrow and so a weaker static spined arrow demonstrates a greater dynamic spine. 

For example: for a #[email protected]" bow the standard choice for a 28" arrow is an 1816. Go down to a 26" arrow and a 1716 is possible, ditto with a 30" draw, you'd use a 1916. Those wood be first choice arrows. After some experimenting, you can play with other shaft sizes to fine tune the rig.

Classic - 

The only point I'm making is that, IMHO, the arrows you're suggesting (here and in other threads as well) are both under-spined and under-weight for the draw weights being discussed. Can they NOT work, obviously they can if your doing it, but again, I wouldn't take the risk, and I would never recommend it to some one I didn't have hands on experience with. It's the "well, I heard this guy on AT say he was doing it, so it must be OK thing". 

Bottom line, almost any arrow can be tuned to shoot out of almost any bow. There is however a "best practices" scenario that will give most people the greatest chance of success with the least effort and associated risk. As we never know who's reading this or any forum, I choose to err on the side of safety.

Viper1 out.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*We Will Get The Facts*

Hank

I Will Post The Exact Weight Of The Arrow, The String Was The Stock String From Hoyt That Comes On The Bow , Just A Simple 3- Dollar Tab And A 29 Inch Draw As Stated In My Previous Posts, By My Friend Charles Who Has Arms Long Enough To Do That. These Figures Where Witnessed By Numerous People And Aren`t Bogus Or Cooked Like With A Low Strand Count Etc... I Will Weigh The Arrow And Let You Guys Know For Sure..... I Love All The Action This Sweet Shooting Bow Is Getting. Again Viper I Did Not Recommend Any Certain Weights For People To Shoot. And If Thats The Case Then I Think People Can Make Their Own Decisions As What To Do.... Just A Thought..AS PER MY STATEMENTS AGAIN FORM IS AN ISSUE remmember practice practice practice was stated also...


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Att Hank*

HANK as promised the weight of the mystery arrow was 310 grains or about 5.9 grains per inch at the 29 inch draw length. thats on the fifty lb bow . light yes, do I shoot that no as I personaly only pull 26inches and shoot 1714 out of the 50lber, the mystery arrow was easton lightspeed 500`s I think my buddy said. Now we will hear from a few others...... but again I did not mention what these arrows weighed or where till now, SO THIS IS A DISCLAIMER I WILL NOT BUY YOU NEW LIMBS IF YOU CHOOSE TO SHOOT THESE ARROWS..... LOL HA HA HA HA . :darkbeer:


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

In CH's defense, that is a light arrow but..... he never said the weight and he NEVER recomended anyone to shoot an arrow as light as his UNDISCLOSED WEIGHT arrow. Anyway those are impressive numbers for the GM but that is a really light arrow. But anyway, I own a Coyote and mine is really not all bad, its a little loud and not really fast but its not a slouch, but I also think that I must have a pretty decent one out of the bunch from what I have read about them. I put some calf hair under the string in the grooves, put a pad in between the limbs and riser in the limb pocket and I have limb savers on it and that quitened it down a good bit. The only thing I dont like about it is the camo is very crappy looking, and scratches pretty easy. Its a really good bowfishing bow. Thats my .02


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello ReviveOurHomes,



> In CH's defense, that is a light arrow but..... he never said the weight and he NEVER recomended anyone to shoot an arrow as light as his UNDISCLOSED WEIGHT arrow. Anyway those are impressive numbers for the GM but that is a really light arrow.


 You may have missed the whole point. What Viper is saying, is people search through these threads and find the bow they are researching. (lets say the GameMaster). Then they read how a person named XYZ gets 245 FPS out of their bow... with only 40 pounds of pull. What goes through that persons mind? BUY GAMEMASTER! FAST bow. and there is proof out there on the INTERNET it goes that fast.

Then the problem begins... 

1. They are new to Archery... They don't know about Minimum G/LBS.
2. They do not understand why their bow only gets 188 FPS with their arrows.
3. They are unhappy with GM because they are losing 30 percent of the speed they read about.
4. They may (or may not) attempt fit very light arrows (exact same setup they read about) not realizing the damage that could be caused.


Now, IYO is it better to be safe and keep things on the up and up? Or is it better to post figures that are beyond the marginal safety area, and possibly allow a newcomer to read and implement something that is not the safest per se, along with possibly be out of the manufactureres recommended minimum?

Dwayne


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

I agree that he should have said something like " you shouldnt shoot arrows this light but I did and this is what I got"......IF....... he would have stated the the arrow weight. But he didnt and he didnt say that everyone should shoot that arrow. But I do see what you are saying about a newbie coming and reading that statement, but how would a newbie know to get a heavy arrow and use a chrony to tell it was going slower than the numbers CH had posted. Obviously he would have to have help and it would have been stated to him. But anyway Im not going to debate about about it. Thanks


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

ROH - 

I was going to let this go, as most folks have already figured out what the deal is. First, it's not terribly difficult to figure out arrow weight by knowing shaft size and basic components. Easton posts that info and components are a known quantity. As far as CH not recommending certain arrows, that's not entirely true either. He suggested to Simoin_Ed that he use an 1814 from a #47 bow with, IIRC, a draw length of 29, which would imply an arrow of at least that length. Also, an apparently "experienced" shooter stating he uses something is a tacet recommendation. 

I really don't care what anyone shoots, just don't want someone getting into trouble because they don't have the full picture.

edit: Another point not addressed as yet. In addition to weight, there's the issue of spine. A typical starting arrow for a #45-50 @ 28" bow would be a 1916, with a static spine of .623", an 1814 has a SS of .799" and a 1714 .963". Now, could I tune the 1814 or 1714 shoot sorta correctly from a #45/50 bow? Probably, but the rest would have to be so far off center to make it counter-productive, and frankly a waste of time, IMHO. Those arrows, even at the shorter draw / arow lengths are too soft for a properly configured bow of the weights mentioned.

Viper1 out.


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

I must have missed that post on this thread where he recomended Ed the arrow. And I agree with what you are saying, its just that I didnt see where he ever recomended the arrow


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*To Whom It May Concern*

Sorry Viper And Dwayne But If You Two Had Not Pushed The Post So Far These Weights Would Still Not Have Been Printed So The Newbie Would Not Think I Said This Or That ..... Honestly It Was Viper Who Said 5,i Grains Not Me So Please Again , Read The Whole Post And Retain Some Of It Before We Spout Off ..... This Is An Honest Observation On My Part And Again Please Read The Posts And Dwayne I Think Viper Can Speak For Himself Just As I Can.... These Are Not Attacks But Truths


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Classic - 

I don't think Dwayne and I are the ones with selective recall.

YOU said you said what you were shooting, not us.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=221879



> I don`t know about your gamemaster but as I stated before my 50lb bow at 29'' draw with light speed arrows shot a consistant 247 fps with small silencers on as well, my 45 lb gamemaster shooting 300 grain arrows shoots over 200fps sounds like your cronie is out of wack check batteries and lights , after that I don`t know unless you have boat anchor silencers and limb savers on as well good luck


300/50 = 6 gr/lb

So by you post the "other" light speed arrow must be lighter than 300 gr?

I seem to recall another post were you said it was a 270 gr arrow, (please don't make me have to find that one too, I just looked for this one to prove a point.)

270/50 = 5.4 gr/lb

And lastly it's 310, but now it's 26". (Yes, you said it was a friend shooting it)I guess I'm confused. 

You see among my other faults is an annoying memory.

Viper1 out.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Viper*

Viper
Why Don`t You Correctly Read The Posts Ishoot The X7s Out Of The 45 Lb Bow But I Only Pull 26 Inches Which Makes It About 38 Pounds Idon`t Want To Go And Shearch Back As To What I Really Said . I Guess You Have Selective Site And Quote What You Think And Not See. In This Post It Was If You Read The Post Again And Agin So It Registers Charles My Friend Has The 29 Inch Draw And Shot The 50lb Bow Please Retain Some Of The Quote As This Is Just Wasted Space From Here On In And You Have Quoted Wrong Again.. 1614 Came Out Of The 45lb Bow Please Get It Right Or Leave It Alone Admit For Once On This Forum You Are Wrong And Stop Making Yourself Look Bad In The Eyes Of The Readers . IF YOU CHECK YOUR QUOTE ABOVE THIS IT EVEN SAYS 300 GRAIN OUT OF MY 45LB BOW YOU DO STAND CORRECTED ALSO PUT IN MY 26 INCH DRAW AND THE WEIGHT IS THEN ???????????????????? USE A CALCULATOR .... PLEASE 300 INTO 38 =7.8 GRAINS THANKS AS PER TUNING THE ARROWS I SAID 8% NIBBS WHICH ARE ROUGHLY 60 GRAINS AND 3 INCH FEATHERS AND YES THESE ARE THE ARROWS THAT I JUST TOOK A PROVINCIAL TITLE IN BARE BOW AGAINST THE COMPOUNDS WITH, OH AND DID I MENTION THAT I TOOK A SILVER IN THE SAME CLASS NATIONALY WHICH MEANS FOR ALL OF CANADA, SORRY TRYING NOT TO RUB IT IN. BUT SOME OF US DO KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING BUT TRY NOT TO BE SO CONDISENDING TO THE OTHER POSTERS ON THIS FORUM .AGAIN MY GENERAL OPINION GOOD SHOOTING AND ENJOY THE SPORT NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CH - 

OOPs, my bad, yes, I did misread your post. Let's look at it again. I didn't argue about about the 188 fps thing (the arrows being under spined is a different story). My concern are your claims about this super natural (or unsafe, IHMO) GM. The GM is a fine bow, not arguing that either - but it's not magical. The speeds you quote are unrealistic for most specialty bow tuned for speed. What you are doing, again, IMHO, is using an under weight and underspined arrow and suggesting others do the same. I'm not looking up any more of your post, just don't have the patience, but here's one last one that abou7t sums up my concern:


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=212556&page=2


> --- my 50lb gamemaster hoyt at 29 inch draw with a light speed arrow at about 380 grains ran an amazing 247 fps and that was a total of 6 arrows just to make sure that it was working properly, and it was as we tested some other bows as well at the same time which we knew the speeds of in advance


. 

Using Eastons KE calculator the KE of that bow = 375gr arrow at 250 fps (rounded off) = 52.06 ft-lb

Bow efficiency = KE/bow weight = 52.06/50 or 104.12% - absolutely amazing.

A really good bow may approach 85-90%

Please help me with this because I'm getting really confused.

edit - just saw your post, unless there's something wrong with your bow or your scale, a #45 @ 28" should be about #41 @ 26"

Viper1 out.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*could be*

viper
seeing you don`t even own one of these bows and I have had 2 at the same time you seem to be quite the say conisour. so how do you not know that maybe it is 3lbs per inch on this bow.. just checking let it go buddy your grasping at straws, and maybe get a life at the same time. you are very confrontational and maybe should be banned as you seem to pick alot of fights and just bable on, even if the person owns one you know more than they do even though it is in their hands as we speak sorry can`t waste any more time on dribble hope ox your reading some of these posts, even when the other readers come to the defence or verify what has been said some people must go on and on and on. Again fellow readers enjoy the sport.........


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Classic - 

This isn't for you, but others might be interested.

The formula for weight variance is draw weight/brace height = number of pounds per inch a bow with gain or loose above or below 28". (Most people use DW/20, as it makes thr math easier and is close enough that most scales or shooters can't tell the difference.) If you're getting #3/inch or more from a #45 bow, it may be stacking 

As far as argumentitive, I'm usually not, but when someone posts potentially harmful or misleading information, I usually will say something. Any, been a slow night and as always, it's been real ...

Viper1 out.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Viper,



> Using Eastons KE calculator the KE of that bow = 375gr arrow at 250 fps (rounded off) = 52.06 ft-lb
> 
> Bow efficiency = KE/bow weight = 52.06/50 or 104.12% - absolutely amazing.
> 
> ...


  


Good one Viper... That is just too good... I guess some folks do have amazing bows. Thats better than my Hoyt compound. (Anyone want a Hoyt in trade for a GameMaster?)

Dwayne


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

Man Dewayne you crack me up, your nose could not be any browner'er!!:embara:


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello ReviveOurHomes,

ROH>>Man Dewayne you crack me up, your nose could not be any browner'er!!<<

Thats the new "Camo" I am trying out.:wink: 

I guess it doesn't work...because you can see me..<g>

Dwayne


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## Reviveourhomes (Jul 18, 2005)

LOL, Dwayne that was a pretty snappy come back. Nah im just razzing you a little bit. I guess you "Airplane avatar'ed trad archers" have to stick together huh?


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## 'Card (Apr 18, 2006)

Getting back to the original topic... 

I own a 55-pound PSE Coyote. I like it, and I hunt with it, but I wouldn't recommend it - especially for someone new to recurves.

As has already been stated, the geometry is... weird. Once I got it tuned and adjusted correctly, I found that it shoots great, but it took a _lot_ of tweaking to get it that way. I must have experimented with half a dozen different strings, three different types of arrows, different fletchings, and at least three rests before I found the combination that made it work right for me. To make a long story short, I like the bow now, but I sure as hell wish I would've started with something more user-friendly.


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