# Node tuning arrows



## ShawnRees (May 15, 2013)

Node tuning?


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## PB26 (Dec 31, 2006)

Based on GRIV's node voodoo I think you're just fine with that front node a little behind the rest. Doesn't he say you want it right at or just a little behind the rest? I think the net effect of cutting the shaft will be to move it back even further. 

But no question, the position of the node has to be rechecked with the table slap method if you change shaft length or point weight.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Personally, I wouldn't bother with node tuning a compound bow when shot with a release...just not critical to the tuning process.

the purpose of node tuning is to get the nodes in alignment with the target and bowstring...probably got that already. When shooting with fingers this becomes more critical due to the arrow tip being offset (archers paradox requirement). When shooting with a release, this tip offset isn't required so the nodes will stay inline with the target and bowstring. Since the nodes, arrow shaft, target, bowstring are all in-line, the node position with the rest isn't near as critical.


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## PB26 (Dec 31, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> Personally, I wouldn't bother with node tuning a compound bow when shot with a release...just not critical to the tuning process.
> 
> the purpose of node tuning is to get the nodes in alignment with the target and bowstring...probably got that already. When shooting with fingers this becomes more critical due to the arrow tip being offset (archers paradox requirement). When shooting with a release, this tip offset isn't required so the nodes will stay inline with the target and bowstring. Since the nodes, arrow shaft, target, bowstring are all in-line, the node position with the rest isn't near as critical.


Yes, they will stay in line on the horizontal plane, but that is not the issue here. You need to node tune when using a blade rest on a compound because the force of the release makes the arrow bend on the vertical plane. If the node is way in front of the launcher blade you'll get some super funky tears no matter what you do because the arrow will make the blade bounce like a trampoline. I've seen it in slow motion and it ain't pretty. Having the front node at or slightly behind the contact point with the blade is critical.


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## PB26 (Dec 31, 2006)

Sorry, I meant to say the front node should be at the launcher blade or in front of it, not behind it.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Node tuning...man I believe you find that by tapping the arrow on your finger or something holding it by the nock and feeling where the vibration in the shaft diminishes and that indicates where the node is yes? I believe you want that spot sitting directly on the arrow rest...because that is where the shaft will not flex?


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## PB26 (Dec 31, 2006)

GRIV has a cool method of finding the node in his DVD. He rests the arrow on an edge, like a table edge, and plucks it down with one hand, holding the nock end with the other hand. The arrow will pop off the edge until it's lined up with the node, then it will barely even move when you pluck.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

exactly what i was thinking about when i opened this PB theirs a vid somewhere around here too. ive seen it a few times. 

GOOD reminder for me as well since im setting up blade and indoor setup, playing with several arrow sized too....ill look to try and find that vid. its pretty cool


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

dwagoner said:


> exactly what i was thinking about when i opened this PB theirs a vid somewhere around here too. ive seen it a few times.
> 
> GOOD reminder for me as well since im setting up blade and indoor setup, playing with several arrow sized too....ill look to try and find that vid. its pretty cool


I'd like to see this video.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

PB26 said:


> Sorry, I meant to say the front node should be at the launcher blade or in front of it, not behind it.


What you are calling the front ?


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

foot powder on the arrow will tell you what your arrow to rest relationship is.


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## GazaShooter (Apr 3, 2013)

In Griv's video he says you want the front node on or a little in front of the rest. The only way to move the node forward is putting a heavier tip on. If you cut the arrow you will move the node further back from my understanding.


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## PB26 (Dec 31, 2006)

Inc. said:


> What you are calling the front ?


Closer to the target side of the launcher.

I guess in weird archaic archery-speak, closer to the "back of the bow side of the launcher."


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you want you node to be either on the rest or very slightly ahead of the rest...(towards the target). the shaft will always flex away from the point of support, so when the node is behind the contact point with the rest, you are making the arrow jump off it's guidance system, because the shaft flexes downwards from the node to the point first. the idea, is that the point that is the node, is where the shaft doesn't move dynamically when it resonates....this is the point you want to be sitting on the rest, because it doesn't change the height the shaft is sitting at, the instant it flexes. if the node is slightly ahead of the rest, when the shaft flexes, it moves up at the rest and the shaft drops down onto it's guidance system...nothing wrong with that, because when the shaft rebounds, it is being driven into the rest slightly harder.
cutting your shafts shorter will move the node back, further towards the string at full draw.....see if you can move your rest back towards the sting, a bit.
rule of thumb,...for any given length of shaft, the node moves the same direction as a change in length of the shaft.
the amount of change is proportional to the arrows FOC percentage.....if you have an arrow that is 10% FOC and you cut some length off that arrow, the node will move back roughly 10% of the amount you cut off.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

not sure how me to explain this slowest possible....a pictorial FEA would show 
yes, there are two nod points in everything straight (is that a line or tube or string or edge or whatever is straight), our interest is right now is just a basic - in arrow shafts
yes, there is a stiffness of the material what will vibrate or better call this oscillate along the two nod points...
the nod points we can not change in the native material, these are there between start point and end point of the "arrow" on certain percentage... 
we can "add heavier or lighter points" to change the FOC what will change the amount of oscillation along the nod points....
now,
answer to your question "where to put the nod point" have a very uncomfortable trade off....
what is more important to you? put a node point to right place or have a sweet spot in your ankle swivel?
because for the most accurate position where the arrow shaft sits on the launcher blade tip is closer to the wrist swivel centerline-axle.... 
that lesser possible swivel amount is directing the shaft tip...the arrow point where it is actually pointing....
because the arrow will "try" to follow that direction - line...regardless of the amount of oscillation along the node points....
and here is a trade off
so, we need to decide what is more important for us...
for me the swivel centerline is more important and I will try to alter the oscillation with selecting the closest possible "spine" better slightly on a stiff side....
I will change the FOC to front heavy to let the arrow follow the point of interest...
I will make sure the shaft gets the best steering possible so the "point" can follow the path...
the shaft will osccilate, but I wanted to oscilate the center and behind and not the front....the helical vanes will slowly transfer the oscillation into radial helical motion.... 
and I will do "french tuning" between let say 5 to 50 yards (Im doing up to 50 meters) so the oscillation amount will be within acceptable range
wow this got long and we didn't covered just a portion.....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

anyway, just a a short note...
find the best accurate spine, give it a higher FOC and best possible steering....
the best result for accuracy will be placing the shaft to launcher blade contact to your grip - swivel point center, so move the rest backwards as much you can


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

a simple experiment can bring us to decision point:
- find the two nod points on the arrow shaft
- mark with a very visible line on the shaft, some white marker lines can work
- find a buddy chiropractor
- draw that arrow in your bow him watching from the side
- chiropractor to mark with a black marker where is your griping hand swivel "axle" line @ a full draw - aim position
- somebody make a picture from a side view showing clearly the white line on your arrow and a black line on your grip hand
Where the two lines are in relation to the arrow rest point on launcher blade? Which one you need more?


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

bigHUN said:


> a simple experiment can bring us to decision point:
> - find the two nod points on the arrow shaft
> - mark with a very visible line on the shaft, some white marker lines can work
> - find a buddy chiropractor
> ...


You're quite an intelligent individual. Thanks for sharing.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

bigHUN said:


> a simple experiment can bring us to decision point:
> - find the two nod points on the arrow shaft
> - mark with a very visible line on the shaft, some white marker lines can work
> - find a buddy chiropractor
> - chiropractor to mark with a black marker where is your griping hand swivel "axle" line @ a full draw - aim position


Please explain further....this Swivel Axle line of the wrist.....pics would be great. Does this swivel axle line depend on shooting a medium, high wrist, or low wrist grip? I'm not understanding what you're saying, I understand my wrist pivots....I've been told the best place is for the front of the launcher tip to be at the point the wrist pivots, but the wrist can pivot in so many directions and to varying degrees...


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## Rage76 (May 9, 2009)

Add more weight to the tip of your arrow that will move it for u DO NOT cut it it will just move back farther


WhitBri said:


> I understand the premise and process. Now my question is I have some 2712s with 250 tips and node is about 1/2" behind rest now. Is there any chance that cutting them shorter bringing that node closer to point and will it come closer to point more so then the amount you cut off. My guess is no but wanted to check with AT. Any other expertise with node tuning 2712s appreciated.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Is torque tuning, finding the nodes, or to cancel out torque? Its just strange how it works with the sight twisting one way and the rest twisted the other, It does how ever work, Im just having trouble seeing it in my mind.


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## broadhead0706 (Jun 11, 2006)

with a drop away rest does finding the node even matter.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

yes. The arrow does not immediately fall when you trip the sear. But it all depends on the level of accuracy you have.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ArcherXXX300 said:


> Please explain further....this Swivel Axle line of the wrist.....pics would be great. Does this swivel axle line depend on shooting a medium, high wrist, or low wrist grip? I'm not understanding what you're saying, I understand my wrist pivots....I've been told the best place is for the front of the launcher tip to be at the point the wrist pivots, but the wrist can pivot in so many directions and to varying degrees...


TORQUE tuning the arrow rest.

THIS means,
find the FORWARD, BACKWARDS position of the arrow rest,
IF you have a LONG frame arrow rest.



This is the Brite Site ProTuner blade arrow rest,
with the EXTRA SUPER DUPER LONG frame, the Jesse Mount.

So,
we call the PERFECT, "swivel axle line of the wrist"
the instantaneous center of rotation...in engineering speak.

So, WHAT's That?

Well,
if you don't have a chiropractor friend handy

if you cannot come visit me in CALIFORNIA...

well,
there is a SIMPLE TEST.

Get a LONG frame arrow rest,
cuz this will not work, if the FRAME of your rest is not LONG enough,
if the FRAME of your arrow rest does not have enough FRONT-REAR travel...towards your face,...away from your face.

http://www.hamskeaarchery.com/shop-hamskea/products.php?id=36&p=1&cat=3

Hamskea has the VERSA overdraw, if you want to try "TORQUE TUNING" your arrow rest,
which simply means TEST different front-back positions for your arrow rest.

MOVE the arrow rest CLOSER to your face.
MOVE the arrow rest EVEN CLOSER to your face.

NO,
the instant center is NOT directly above the wrist joint.
The instant center of rotation, the SWEET spot for each shooter, will be SOMEWHERES, THERE-ABOUTS the wrist joint,
but not directly ABOVE the wrist joint.

So,
you shoot some 80 yard groups, with YOUR current arrow rest position (FRONT-BACK position).

NOW,
you shoot some 80 yard groups, with YOUR current arrow rest and the VERSA OVER-DRAW
and you move your arrow rest 1/16th inch TOWARDS your face. Are you groups tighter....LEFT to right?

Can't tell?

NOW,
you shoot some 80 yard groups, with YOUR current arrow rest and the VERSA OVER-DRAW
and you move your arrow rest 3/32nds TOWARDS your face. Are you groups tighter....LEFT to right?

Can't tell?

NOW,
you shoot some 80 yard groups, with YOUR current arrow rest and the VERSA OVER-DRAW
and you move your arrow rest 1/8th TOWARDS your face. Are you groups tighter....LEFT to right?

Can't tell?

NOW,
you shoot some 80 yard groups, with YOUR current arrow rest and the VERSA OVER-DRAW
and you move your arrow rest 5/32nds TOWARDS your face. Are you groups tighter....LEFT to right?


You get the idea.

When you get the ABSOLUTE most SKINNY groups of your life,
measuring your groups LEFT to RIGHT...

you have found the "swivel axle line of the wrist"...

what us engineering types in the medical devices field,
call the Instantaneous center of rotation....for one degree of freedom.

You can do Finite Element Analysis....fancy computer program, with really pretty Wire Frame pictures.

You can do very sophisticated 3D computer models.
Then, you build a prototype and do destructive testing.
Then, you whip out the medical grade alloy and machine a test piece, a DUMMY piece that has maybe just the BEARING surfaces and do more testing.
Then, you whip out more medical grade alloy and machine a REAL, to scale prototype, and you do the NON-destructive testing and hope you don't BREAK it.

Same for archery.

You can find the friendly local chiropractor,
or

just hit the range and go SHOOT lots of arrows
and move the arrow rest,
on the Hamskea Versa OVER draw
and find where your sweet spot is...how much CLOSER to your face, than usual.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> yes. The arrow does not immediately fall when you trip the sear. But it all depends on the level of accuracy you have.


TRUTH.

If a shooter is a 200 shooter on the Vegas FAce,
don't worry about node tuning. Won't help.

If a shooter is stuck at 295 and trying to break into the FIRST 300 score on the Vegas face,
don't worry about node tuning or torque tuning with the Hamskea Versa Over-Draw. Focus more on a consistent shot routine,
and discipline to let down, when the FEEL of the shot setup is NOT perfect.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Is torque tuning, finding the nodes, or to cancel out torque? Its just strange how it works with the sight twisting one way and the rest twisted the other, It does how ever work, Im just having trouble seeing it in my mind.



Sooo much I could teach you.

1) torque tuning the arrow rest will SKINNY up your 90 meter groups (100 yards)...if you shoot that distance.
Torque tuning the arrow rest (front back movement with an overdraw or a SUPER long arrow rest frame) will skinny up your 80 yard arrow groups (NFAA field archery).

2) torque tuning a target sight will SKINNY up your 90 meter groups (100 yards)...if you shoot that distance.
Torque tuning a target sight (front back movement with a sliding dovetail target sight) will skinny up your 80 yard groups (NFAA field archery).

The effects are small, but worth it, and ONLY noticeable for the REALLY advanced shooter...like YOU.

TORQUE tuning your sight, a sliding dovetail sight makes the SYSTEM more forgiving for an advanced shooter....like YOU.
TORQUE tuning your arrow rest, with an overdraw attachment or with a SUPER LONG arrow rest frame, makes the ENTIRE system more FORGIVING for an advanced shooter...like YOU.

When you Torque Tune your sight,
when you Torque Tune your arrow rest....

and 
you combine it with my Stabilizer in Three Steps,
(which includes my system of Torque tuning a STABILIZER).....THEN, we can REALLY skinny up your arrow groups,
at short, medium AND long range.

Works particularly well at 20 yards.

hehehehehehehehe.


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