# Borders Covert Hunter (initial set-up & first shots)



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Well done Bill  

Bill embraced where he should start with setup with these bows and when that's done they are very easy to tune 

It's gonna grow even more on ya buddy 

The draw cycle for me at least is addictive 

The R & D limbs I'm shooting right now have me smiling every time I pick up the bow 

Anxious to see how you get on with it 

I bought a lot of bows in my days but my CH was what I was looking for and beside limb upgrades I do not see me ever shooting anything else again 

For my purposes it's the right hammer for the job


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## wbrogdon (Nov 16, 2010)

Nice!


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

Nice ,glad your liking it Bill


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Try a smaller diameter shaft like a Beman or Aftermath.
CH bows like a high nock point and true centershot if not just a tad under. Interesting that you found brace best at 7". 
And it looks like my scale is off by a #.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Really do love that carbon overlays...


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## crazyhoyt (May 30, 2011)

Sure looks like a great bow. I been looking at Borders for a while now but don't know anyone that has one to get any feedback. Thanks for posting.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Very nice!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bill 2311 said:


> Try a smaller diameter shaft like a Beman or Aftermath.
> CH bows like a high nock point and true centershot if not just a tad under. Interesting that you found brace best at 7".
> And it looks like my scale is off by a #.


Will do!...I'm gonna be shopping .340's at Bass Pro later today! 

and thanks everybody...I'm real happy I finally got my bow hand wrapped around one and now onto?...


*"The Covert Hunters Grip":*

When the Borders CH made it's debut a couple years ago and I first laid eyes on the stock grip profile of the CH risers?....(especially the 17"er)...my first thought was...

*"Oh He11 No!...there won't be any CH's in my future!"*

as the CH's grip profile didn't just appear fat...it was downright obese too my eyes and if I learned anything about myself and bows?....it's that...

*"If I don't get along with the grip of a wooden bow?...it'll hit the classifieds faster than it came out of the box it arrived in!"*

Furthermore and worse yet?...not only did I hear scattered rumors of folks expressing disdain for the CH's chunky little grip but I also had an online bud (I purchased a couple bows from) "Order, Wait & Buy" a CH where after receiving it?...sold it but a few weeks later citing that he just couldn't get along with the CH's chunky little grip...it was just too fat for him.

So it was with no small amount of apprehension that I purchased this CH from Mr. Strayer...but knowing the compact performance of these CH's is off the charts?...and that the $1,400 price tag of this well kept CH was approachable?....along with the fact I was a snakes hair away from purchasing a $2,269 In Stock Blacktail?...I figured if there was ever a time I could and should at least try a CH?...it was now and I jumped figuring if I didn't like it?...I wouldn't have much trouble at all offing it without taking too bad of a financial hit but getting back too..."The CH's Stock Grip"?...

In the short time I've owned this CH?...I've concluded that..

*"The Covert Hunters Stock Grip Profile Makes Perfect Sense"*

and here's my reason why...

"Stability": as this is where I (and competition focused archers) need to be mindful that the CH is NOT..."A Spot Bow"...and I can't emphasis that enough as it seems folks persistently like to compare the CH too "Competition Rigs" when in actuality it's a "Purebred Hunting Rig" being measured in a world where competitive archers regularly remove stock grips from their "Stab Rich" machined aluminum competition risers in an effort to....

*"Reduce Hand Torque"*

well?...when you're dealing with a bow that's 53"s Short when strung?....and 51"s from tip-too-tip at full draw?....

Your level of Stability isn't "COMPROMISED" by a wide grip with a rather large contact patch....

*IT'S...CAUSED...BY IT!*

Where here again we need to be mindful that...

*"The Covert Hunter Is NOT A Spot Bow!"* (you're gonna hear me say that many times cause it can't be stressed enough in these parts)

It's a Purebred Hunting Rig....a bow that may very well need to be put into action at a moments notice with arrows loosed in the blink of an eye...accurately...with?...."Stability"....that is achieved just as quickly and the stock CH grip profile?....affords that.

The 30deg diamond shaped bottom of the grip arrows it's way into the lifeline of my palm as the web of my bow hand slams home to an extremely positive register in the grips throat where once draw pressure begins to apply itself too my thumb palms sweet spot?...that thumb palm is met with a huge, flat (comfy for higher DW hunting rigs) contact patch that immediately....

*"STABILIZES THE BOW"*

We also need to take into account that despite it's stout fireplug appearance?...the CH is still a wood laminated bow and as such?...it's total weight (riser/limbs/string and all) weighs 1,100grams...(not even 2 1/2LBS)...so we can't really rely on "Mass Weight" to stabilze our CH's quickly and with "All That Feel" going on throughout the draw cycle of HEX7 series limbs?...we need something to help stabilize things and?...

viola...here's where the chunky looking stock grip profile of the Covert Hunter begins to make...

*"Perfect Sense"*










The Covert Hunters "Throat" Measured 1.230" across the narrowest area...

(where the small riser window makes it appear larger than life)










and if you think that's fat?...here's a pic of my old beloved Bob Lee TD Hunter back when I was preparing to attempt to shave it down close too "Hoyt Excel" sized profiles....it measured 1.400" across the throat making the CH's grip profile look like it's on the Jenny Craig program! LOL! 










Upshot?...I would have no other grip profile on a Covert Hunter as the one that it comes with?...was obviously and specifically designed FOR the Covert Hunter and?...."It's Intended Purpose". 

Hope you all enjoyed reading my thoughts and L8R, Bill.


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

Nice write-up Jinks. Look forward to reading more! Sweet rig


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Nice Jink's, congrat's. I will say, you really dig deep in all your bow's spec's, grip ect, which is a good thing !


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jinks, and those that like numbers.

Glad your seeing what we have put into the bow.

let me see if i can explain some of the scales of difference that this bow highlights.

your normal recurve will store 0.9SE/PDF at 28"
which means in normal language, for ever pound held at 28" of draw. the bow will store 0.90 foot lbs of energy.

when you dry fire a bow, you basically slam the bow with more energy than it can handle. which means your hitting it with more residual energy than it can take. so its all about energy, more than anything else.

so lets look at the energy levels.
A covert can store 1.25SE/PDF, so what does that mean to you and me.

lets run through a scene or two.
normal bow 8gpp [email protected]" = 45Ft/lbs of energy and a 400 grain arrow.
at 1.25SE/PDF the bow stores 62.5ft/lbs of energy for the same spec. which means if you use a 400 grain arrow. Same GPP, your compairing, 400grains/45ftlbs = 8.89grains per foot lbs.
400 grain/62.5ftlbs = 6.4grains per foot lbs.
those values are not comaprable, even though GPP is supposed to be a comparison.

If you flip those numbers on ther heads. to get 45ft/lbs of energy. from a covert, you would need to be holding closer to 35lbs on your fingers. this would mean your equalling the energy of the 50lbs bow. so what was 8gpp from the 50lbs bow from the 36lbs bow would be 11.1gpp from the 36lbs bow.

So, which every way you look at it. the minimum GPP concept simply doesnt compair. its not relevant. Its flat out wrong.

thats at 28".
the problem gets magnified with longer draws as that smoothness really starts to show a difference.
As the flat smooth DFC really starts to devide designs. the preload bulge gap looks even more exagerated it you equal the weights at 31" opposed to 28"

We have also been looking at stretch in bow strings and are realy starting to see how this high energy impacts the bow.
the compound cable replacement strings according to BCYs FAQ page to break some models of compounds.
the reduce creep/stretch in these strings seem to be showing as more problematic than the full dyneema stands.
the string materials have 30% less stretch. which is ok if you have 3x the string length to account for the total stretch available. (compounds have 3 strings)
the string debate is muddied by the number of twists in the string though. as more twists makes a string more spingy...

our advise is to avoid cable replacements strings.
8190 and the likes seem to work just fine.

before the nay sayers pop up. If your bow doesnt store much energy. by way of design, or by way of draw length or poundage. then the impact hitting the bow will be less. since there wasnt much in the first place.
thats not me slamming the competition. as it could acccount for a covert with 25lbs at 24" AMO.
then the string material will have less of an issue for you.
it your hauling a 60bs covert with a 31" draw, and using a 452X with 1 twist per inch. BE WARNED.

(Jinks, Sorry for the duplicate post from TT)


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Interesting Jinks.....

Does that Border riser come in any other config....with a larger sight window?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Beendare said:


> Interesting Jinks.....
> 
> Does that Border riser come in any other config....with a larger sight window?


Yessir...it most certainly does...matter fact?...it comes in (5) different riser lengths...

Ultra 17"

Swift 19"

Original 21"

Tournament 23" & 25" Models

Lots of folks prefer the longer versions with the larger sight windows but my thinking was with this possibly becoming my hunting rig?...(should I ever get the time and a chance to hunt again)...I wanted the shortest version...despite the fact I knew I'd wind up "canting it"...other archers with a super high cheekbone anchor have no need to do so but I'm not one of those and truth be told?....I actually prefer to shoot shorter bow with a cant...it's how I shot my 56" Thunderchild...my 13" risered Morrison...my 58" American Bushmen...my 55" Drake Hunter Flight and pretty much any other conventionally designed bow of AMO's less than 64".

Here's the link too the PDF info page.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4382577



Well?...I tried to capture a "Glamor Shot" and had to chuckle as I attempted to...*"Get The Bow To Stand Out"*...(think about that...LOL!)...and despite my meager photo editing skills?...this is the best I could do this morning...










it seems God doesn't make anything in a straight line and the only straight lines on this bow are the string and the arrow! LOL!

Also?...Not only will this Take-Down...Break Down...into a nifty little package that will easily tuck into a backpack or suitcase (whatever the case may be)?...Being the class act Borders is I found the riser and limb sleeves to be extremely well padded and secure.











And now?...I gotta shower up and go buy some .340 spine shafts...thanks for looking and L8R, Bill.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

Everything border makes and does is 5 star ..have gotten several bows and limbs from them and everything is always perfect


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Beendare said:


> Interesting Jinks.....
> 
> Does that Border riser come in any other config....with a larger sight window?


One of the cooler features on the customizable list is that you can have them cut the sight window, so long as it maintains enough meat there the limb bolts, to a particular size, _and shape_.

The grip won't go as thin as a metal riser. I keep toying with the idea to ask for permission to dremel out a small dip for my index finger knuckle, and maybe even the top of my thumb knuckle, just to see if I can make it _oh so perfect_, but the grip I've got, based on the Hoyt High Ortho (that I discovered via a Jinks post), is pretty darn comfortable, and doesn't seem to give me a noticeable torque problem. Most of my shooting issues seem related to forgetting to properly set and project the bow arm. When that goes right, the bow, for me, is pretty darn forgiving, at least compared to similar rigs.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Lots of folks prefer the longer versions with the larger sight windows but my thinking was with this possibly becoming my hunting rig?...(should I ever get the time and a chance to hunt again)..


Even if you don't hunt, it makes a good 'trad' target rig as well. I don't mean NFAA 'Trad', necessarily, which at higher levels of competition almost dictates a long riser, 12" stab, as as much weight as you can tolerate, but I mean the culturally 'trad' oriented shoots, where it is almost always unmarked, and the spirit of the game is to use your hunting tackle.

But, more important than the bow, I think, is that if you really do have any interest in hunting again, see if you can make some plans with somebody in your area, anybody, put aside the time, and get out there and do it. Even if you don't take anything home, even if you pass, even if you see nothing, it's a win!



>


Nice Picture!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> Even if you don't hunt, it makes a good 'trad' target rig as well. I don't mean NFAA 'Trad', necessarily, which at higher levels of competition almost dictates a long riser, 12" stab, as as much weight as you can tolerate, but I mean the culturally 'trad' oriented shoots, where it is almost always unmarked, and the spirit of the game is to use your hunting tackle.
> 
> But, more important than the bow, I think, is that if you really do have any interest in hunting again, see if you can make some plans with somebody in your area, anybody, put aside the time, and get out there and do it. Even if you don't take anything home, even if you pass, even if you see nothing, it's a win!
> 
> ...


I agree and Thanks Barney!...I do need to "Get In The Woods"! 

That said?...I just finished up recording the first arrows sent across the beams and here's the results...

in the videos "Comment Box".....

*Arrow: 29" Long GT5575 .400 spine weighing 420gr/9.3GPP w/ 145gr Screw-In Points.

Bow: 60"/45# Borders "Covert Hunter" (2015 HEX7 Limbs on a 2016 17" Riser) Braced at 7"s even. (The Max Recommended)

Archer: 27 1/2" Length of Draw/Shot 3-Under with a Glove.*

Using my scaled arrow?...I drew this CH too anchor 3x's with my eyes closed to verify that I am drawing 27 1/2"s as measured too the back of the 17" Riser.

It might be noted that the string is equipped with puff type string silencers and the ends are "Yarn Wrapped".

I apologize for the poor sound quality in the vid as I obviously have some "Setting Issues" to address as this is my first video recorded with my new Galaxy S7 smartphone which is but days old and I have a lot to learn about it.

Here's the Initial Chrono Results...420gr/9.3GPP, 27 1/2" DL....enjoy.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

That is awesome speed my friend out of that bow at your draw buddy


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> That is awesome speed my friend out of that bow at your draw buddy


Thanks Joe! 

It's definitely a game changer! LOL!

I'm not one for walking in woods where some creatures can hunt me with an anemic weapon.

Hypothetically?...if by happenstance I were confronted with an angry bear while holding a 45# recurve of conventional profile?...I be chitt'in my pants...but with this 45# CH pumping out the equivalent of a well sorted 55# conventional curve?...I'd smile knowing I'm about to be the proud owner of a real nice rug! :laugh:

Only downside?...I gotta shoot for the sides of my bales now cause if I aim for the center?...I'll blow right through'em! LOL!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I am very pleased that you are happy Bill 

When I first got my hands on a CH I knew it was something far from the norm 

All honestly if I were not a sentimental guy (shot some good deer with) the many bows in my collection I would be selling my conventional bows off . I have no interest in shooting anything else but the CH and the Hex series limbs 

Hopefully tomorrow I can get the time to shoot aa brief video on the R&D limbs I'm shooting and some setup info 

You have done a great job on this write up Jinks


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> I am very pleased that you are happy Bill
> 
> When I first got my hands on a CH I knew it was something far from the norm
> 
> ...


Thanks Joe!....I try. 

And now I understand why you were so jeeped up about the Borders CH a couple years back...and you had good reason to be!


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

JParanee said:


> I am very pleased that you are happy Bill
> 
> When I first got my hands on a CH I knew it was something far from the norm
> 
> ...


yeah you need to do a video 

been awhile since ive seen one from you


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> yeah you need to do a video
> 
> been awhile since ive seen one from you


Thx Ghosty 

I've been hammered all summer 

Missed all the shots 

My dogs got sick 

Kids sports 

Work 

Motorcycle accident  

New puppies 

My two youngest daughters are heavy into sports sometimes I'm at 4 games a weekend 

Like everyone life gets in the way 

I've done some sword videos for a remarkable blade smith friend and work related videos but not much archery stuff 

Well the leaves are dropping I'm seeing some good deer and these R&D limbs have me pumped right now 

I've been shooting a bit each night and I feel good coming into the season

I've got some days on the calendar to hunt and I'm getting that excited feel that the cool breeze and the falling leaves brings on 

I'm charging the camera battery tonight


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Go for it Joe!....I'm anxious to see what you got going on there! 

On the downside?...I just went to check out the classifieds and this Ch?...made them read like the funny papers. 

and too all those who told me I'd never find...

*"The Magic Bow"?*

You lied. :elf_moon:


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

How do you handle the finger pinch? 53" is extremely short. 

Even a 64" recurve pinches my fingers with a 28" draw. Makes it too difficult to get a clean release.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> How do you handle the finger pinch? 53" is extremely short.
> 
> Even a 64" recurve pinches my fingers with a 28" draw. Makes it too difficult to get a clean release.


I believe he's describing the 'operating envelope' so to speak.

For instance, my 62" Covert Hunter has a roughly 61" string, so at full draw, it has the string angle of a 64" conventional recurve bow, but it's shorter, undrawn, than my 60" recurve, end to end, because of the recurve of the limbs pulling itself in, vertically. I might have some pictures around here for comparison, but I'm sure Jinks could whip some out right quick....


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Hypothetically?...if by happenstance I were confronted with an angry bear while holding a 45# recurve of conventional profile?...I be chitt'in my pants...but with this 45# CH pumping out the equivalent of a well sorted 55# conventional curve?...I'd smile knowing I'm about to be the proud owner of a real nice rug!


If I were on the ground with an angry bear I don't think I would shoot at it unless I knew it was coming for me anyway. Just can't count on it dropping fast enough  Actually, my preference would be to have a friend next to me with something big, heavy, and LOUD ready to go....

But, yeah, my 46# Covert Hunter is dumping roughly the equivalent energy of my 54#, reflexed, relatively high performance conventional recurve, similar speed and arrow weight. I like it. On deer, so long as you're not shooting into a big hunk of bone, it's not a matter of getting a pass through, but finding your arrow. It certainly can't be true, but it _seems_ like the arrow doesn't much slow down. Definitely cool points.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JamesThom. said:


> How do you handle the finger pinch? 53" is extremely short.
> 
> Even a 64" recurve pinches my fingers with a 28" draw. Makes it too difficult to get a clean release.


What Borders has done here is stuffed a lot of limb into a "Short at Static" bow...where despite it only being 53"s from tip-too-tip at brace?....this 60" super recurve bow requires a 58 5/8ths" string length (as measured at a max recommended 7" BH)....where as the working area of the limb flexes reward towards the archer as they draw?...the big hook limb tips simultaneously project themselves outward from the bows center resulting in a bow that only loses 2"s at full draw retaining an overall length measurement of 51"s.



















as compared to limbs of conventional recurve profile that collapse inward towards the bows center as much as they flex rearward.

I feel zero finger pinch with this 60" CH at my full draw of 27 1/2"s which my bare shaft groupings soundly verify...




















I'll be posting up some "Shoot" vids tomorrow and will get a good side shot of how the limbs "Open Up" as they are drawn as opposed too "shutting down".


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

62" covert hunter next to a 60" conventional recurve.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Nice pics Jinkster. 

I don't even know if I would feel comfortable stringing that bow, the limb photos almost look photo shopped!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JamesThom. said:


> Nice pics Jinkster.
> 
> I don't even know if I would feel comfortable stringing that bow, the limb photos almost look photo shopped!


I was a touch intimidated about that myself at first but after stringing and un-stringing it a couple times?...I actually find it easier to string than any bow I've owned...once you realize the act is more one of sliding the loop end up rather than outward to engage the tips string nock.

That coupled with the fact that it's a bow of comparatively low BH that requires string that's only 1 1/2"s shorter than the bow?...easy as pie.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

They do string very easy 







There is no finger pinch at all 

This is a 60 inch CH


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> View attachment 4941241
> 
> 
> 62" covert hunter next to a 60" conventional recurve.



Barney?...in speaking with Joe yesterday?...I made this comment too him...

*"Performance wise?...I feel the Covert Hunter is too a Conventional Recurve what a Conventional Recurve is too a Longbow."*

it's a whole different animal and the recurve bow as we knew it?....has officially evolved!


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Looks like you found your Super Bow Jinkster, congratulations!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Barney?...in speaking with Joe yesterday?...I made this comment too him...
> 
> *"Performance wise?...I feel the Covert Hunter is too a Conventional Recurve what a Conventional Recurve is too a Longbow."*
> 
> it's a whole different animal and the recurve bow as we knew it?....has officially evolved!


That's a good way of looking at it, I think. It's different. It isn't for everybody, just as it's not for everything, like anything else.

In 'converting' from my prior recurve, the biggest adaptation I had to make was to learn to relax my finger proportionately more. Part of it was that it was less holding weight, but part of it was the lack of stack. You can't expand to pull the string off your fingers, since the draw weight doesn't increase very much. For me, it took some time, but the adjustment period was worth it.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi Jinks , Love your write ups and videos , They always seem to get the thinking processes going. I was wondering, You are getting 196 FPS with a 400grain arrow at 45 on the fingers. Is that 400 total grains for the arrow complete and ready to shoot? I mention this because of the chronograph results at my local archery shop with my bow. I shoot and old 68 inch Hoyt Avalon plus with Winex limbs 35 pounds on the fingers at 27 1/2 draw with 29 inch .600 spine shafts and a 330 total arrow weight. That is about 9.4 GPP and average 198 on the chronograph. This seems very close to your results but in all my reading The Borders are supposed to be faster at an equal draw weight with similar arrow weight. I guess the video surprised me , I was expecting something in the 210 range with your set up. Does a longer aluminum ILF type riser have different shooting characteristics than a shorter wood riser bow? I am basically a target shooter also so the length of bow is not critical to me. Also I am getting a bit older (62 in January) so possible poundage options are in my future. Not criticizing just wanting to learn.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Corene1 said:


> Hi Jinks , Love your write ups and videos , They always seem to get the thinking processes going. I was wondering, You are getting 196 FPS with a 400grain arrow at 45 on the fingers. Is that 400 total grains for the arrow complete and ready to shoot? I mention this because of the chronograph results at my local archery shop with my bow. I shoot and old 68 inch Hoyt Avalon plus with Winex limbs 35 pounds on the fingers at 27 1/2 draw with 29 inch .600 spine shafts and a 330 total arrow weight. That is about 9.4 GPP and average 198 on the chronograph. This seems very close to your results but in all my reading The Borders are supposed to be faster at an equal draw weight with similar arrow weight. I guess the video surprised me , I was expecting something in the 210 range with your set up. Does a longer aluminum ILF type riser have different shooting characteristics than a shorter wood riser bow? I am basically a target shooter also so the length of bow is not critical to me. Also I am getting a bit older (62 in January) so possible poundage options are in my future. Not criticizing just wanting to learn.



Corene?...if you have a 68"/35# ILF Target rig that pushing 330gr/9.4GPP arrows at 198fps?

Either your chrono is well towards the happy side or you're a Tuning Goddess with a very special bow.

For comparison?....My 68"/35# Stolid Bull Black Thunder riser with Kaya KStorms puts 270gr/7.7GPP arrows across the beams at 202fps.

How you're getting 198fps out of 9.4GPP arrows?...is well beyond me....sorry.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Thanks. That is definitely a possibility as it is the shops chronograph.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Looks like you found your Super Bow Jinkster, congratulations!


Thanks EK! 



BarneySlayer said:


> That's a good way of looking at it, I think. It's different. It isn't for everybody, just as it's not for everything, like anything else.
> 
> In 'converting' from my prior recurve, the biggest adaptation I had to make was to learn to relax my finger proportionately more. Part of it was that it was less holding weight, but part of it was the lack of stack. You can't expand to pull the string off your fingers, since the draw weight doesn't increase very much. For me, it took some time, but the adjustment period was worth it.


I agree Barney...I just spent the afternoon sort of struggling somewhat in an attempt to tune in some new shafting as follows...

Well I'm so excited with the new CH?...I to to Bass Pro and got some new arrow shafts.

It's ironic that my old 29" Long GT5575/.400's tuned in so well, so quickly with 145gr points but there's two things I've learned over the years...

1. Once I realized how much more consistently accurate I was with full length arrows?...I never again chopped up any perfectly good arrows with the mindset of..."The Longer The Better"...it's gives my mind and eyes a longer sight radius to peer down and there was just no denying the advantages of such so if I want to optimize my accuracy with this CH?...chopsticks weren't on the dinner table....full length for me baby! 

and?...

2. I'm also a firm believer in exploiting the benefits of "High FOC"...especially when it comes to wielding shorter length Hunting Rigs...I was looking for at least 200gr points up front.

The combination of which?...drove my purchase decision of a dozen new...

*"Carbon Express 350 Mayhem Hunter Shafts"*

where all 12 weighed either 326gr or 327gr (w/ Bulldog Nocking System) prior to installing their 12gr inserts.... 










here's the spec sheet on'em...


*Product Description
• Innovative Built-in Weight Forwardâ„¢ Technology
Superior Down Range Accuracy with a Broadhead
• Patented BuffTuffÂ® Plus K-360Â°â„¢ Weave Technology â€“ Excellent
Strength and Spine Consistency for Complete Performance
• BuffTuffÂ® Arrow Finish in Mossy OakÂ® Obsessionâ„¢ Camo Pattern
• Shafts Include BullDog Nock Collars, Nocks & Inserts
• Straightness: Â± .0035â€�
• Weight Tolerance: Â± 1.0 grain
• Spine Selection Tolerance: Â± .0025â€�
• Available Sizes and Weights:
250 - .418 Spine (8.9 gpi)
350 - .347 Spine (9.8 gpi) *

I installed an insert in just one of the shafts and with 200gr point it weighed 539grs.... 











But?...I've since bumped it up too 250gr...and also played with 175gr, 145gr, 125gr, 100gr and even 85gr points and it pretty much shot weak with everything I tried but does best with the 250gr points...not sure if I need to cut them an inch or if I'm getting "A False Weak" out of everything as I also went through 3 different strike plat thicknesses...122", .060" and .100".

I stopped because after about 100 well executed shots out of a 45# bow?...it was time to.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Corene1 said:


> The Borders are supposed to be faster at an equal draw weight with similar arrow weight.


Probably, if you're talking relatively heavy arrows, but faster at an equal draw and arrow weight is probably the wrong way of looking at them. my 54# conventional recurve I once clocked at 220 fps, if I significantly overdrew. 

They're 'fast' bows, for sure, but that isn't really special, and 'fast' is relative. What they do really well is give you more arrow weight at a given holding weight without slowing down the arrow, or the same arrow weight and same speed with less holding weight, etc. Getting a conventional recurve near or even above 200 fps isn't such a big deal. if you only want speed for unmarked 3D or something like that, you're not getting too much out of it. 

However, if you jive well with the smoother draw, and that helps your accuracy, that could be of benefit. Whether or not the smoothness of the draw helps or hinders is an individual case. I and many others like it, some other don't.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Corene1 said:


> Thanks. That is definitely a possibility as it is the shops chronograph.


I don't know about that shop, but there used to be a shop that clocked some amazing speeds. They also had overhead florescent lighting, which I believe is actually flashing at around 120 Hz. They can screw with readings. Hank/Steve has an entire protocol regarding reading chronographs. They're interesting, and fun, but unless you're verifying results across multiple times, across multiple machines, you kind of have to take them as 'kinda sorta probably.... kinda'.

With my Predator Velocity, which is a reflexed riser with a 6 5/8" brace height, and a 432 gn arrow, 54#, measured at my 28 1/2" draw length, I was averaging about 200 fps on my chronograph.

With my Covert Hunter, a deflexed riser, with the same 6 5/8" brace height, and a 418 gn arrow, 46#, measured at same draw length, I was averaging about 198.

If I'm running calculations correctly, I was holding 54# to deliver 38.4 Ft# of kinetic energy, versus holding 46# to deliver 36.4 Ft#. 15% reduction in holding weight, lost 5% of the kinetic energy, and 2 fps, I'll take it.

If you scaled the Covert Hunter's results up to a 54# holding weight, that would be 42.7 Ft#, as opposed to 38.4 F# for the Predator, an 11% increase in energy given the same holding weight. On top of that, the Border bows are actually more efficient at higher weights, so you'd likely get even more out of the CH, if it were apples to apples, or less out of the Predator, given actual equal draw weights.


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## nmlongbow (Nov 13, 2007)

Jinks, it loooks like you're really shaking on the hold with that bow. I didn't notice any shaking before or after the shot while handling the bow so you may just be over bowed. I imagine hunting or competition would even magnify that instability.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

nmlongbow said:


> Jinks, it loooks like you're really shaking on the hold with that bow. I didn't notice any shaking before or after the shot while handling the bow so you may just be over bowed. I imagine hunting or competition would even magnify that instability.


Yeah...I get that a lot...but there's one thing folks don't understand and another thing they typically don't take into consideration when they suggest that I'm possibly over-bowed where?...

*The Thing They Don't Understand Is:* My camera is set at a 3X magnification and I'm standing right beside it...so the view they/you are seeing?...is as though your head is positioned at my elbows distance away from the bow...bottom line?...my shaking is no where's near the level one might think watching the magnified video's but?...that's not to say I don't shake because?...

*The Thing They Don't Take Into Consideration Is:* I'm a 58 year old diabetic with high BP who just had a stroke a year ago...I have good days and not so good days...

(which BTW is often times why I don't pursue hunting opportunities as often as I typically used to as the depression associated with the realities of my sketchy health affects my decision making there)

but regardless of what sort of day I'm having?...I don't allow it to stop me from shooting my bows or participating here as much as I can as both help keep my spirits up and?...sometimes I think I buy that next bow just to give me something to look forward too and?...whatever keeps me looking forward to another tomorrow. 

I uploaded this vid on the 6th of last month...(a little over 5 weeks ago)....it a very stout bow with a ton of preload designed in where I'm drawing this 63 1/2#@26" monster too...26"s

Do I look like I'm "Shaky" at that 63 1/2#s?....






and to support my claim that I'm not "Over-Bowed" at this CH's 45#s?...

How many over-bowed archers are capable of shooting....195fps/195fps/196fps...over a chrono?

Not trying to be a smart azz here or demean you in anyway...only trying to explain myself and what I deal with so that others might better understand but?...

Thanks for trying to look out for me! 

I may have suggested the same had the shoe been on the other foot.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

New day...fresh mind....and what I'm know thinking is....

Going from .400 too .350 spine really isn't much of a jump now is it?

Then consider the new full length shafts are a full 2"s longer and?...

If the object was increased point weight?....the increased length countered that! 

Time to hit the saw.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Corene?...if you have a 68"/35# ILF Target rig that pushing 330gr/9.4GPP arrows at 198fps?
> 
> Either your chrono is well towards the happy side or you're a Tuning Goddess with a very special bow.
> 
> ...


I have made a couple self bows that shot a 9 grain per pound Arrow 192 feet per second so it's not outside the realm of possibilities

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Draw lengths make a difference with chronos and spine choice. But a small observation is that longer draws add speed to any given draw length.
We have been coming accross quite a few archers who measure to the throat of the grip. While arrow spines and bow recomendations are amo. (Thoat of the grip plus 1.75")
That 1.75" is a big deal when it comes to bow performance.
At 30 yards. Point on for point on. Most archers shoot their existing arrows about 2feet higher when shooting thier bow with a covert.
We havent seen a bow yet that isnt about 2foot lower point on for point on. Same anchor same archer.
Chrono or no chrono. Point on with tue same anchor same distance. Same arrow will show you what bow is faster


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Borderbows said:


> Draw lengths make a difference with chronos and spine choice. But a small observation is that longer draws add speed to any given draw length.
> We have been coming accross quite a few archers who measure to the throat of the grip. While arrow spines and bow recomendations are amo. (Thoat of the grip plus 1.75")
> That 1.75" is a big deal when it comes to bow performance.
> At 30 yards. Point on for point on. Most archers shoot their existing arrows about 2feet higher when shooting thier bow with a covert.
> ...


Bingo.


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Demmer said:


> I have made a couple self bows that shot a 9 grain per pound Arrow 192 feet per second so it's not outside the realm of possibilities
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


What kind of wood did you use? I have never seen anybody shoot an arrow out of a self bow that looked like it was going over 165fps. Might be because I never see anyone pull them more than 26". 192 fps is good speed finger shot with laminated bows.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Borderbows said:


> Draw lengths make a difference with chronos and spine choice. But a small observation is that longer draws add speed to any given draw length.
> We have been coming accross quite a few archers who measure to the throat of the grip. While arrow spines and bow recomendations are amo. (Thoat of the grip plus 1.75")
> That 1.75" is a big deal when it comes to bow performance.
> At 30 yards. Point on for point on. Most archers shoot their existing arrows about 2feet higher when shooting thier bow with a covert.
> ...


Not quite understanding what you are saying , My current point on is 42 yards Gap at 25 yards is 1.25 in the window of the riser and back of the shelf is 80 yards. Would the border bow tighten the gap and lower my point on to say 35 yards and still carry 80 yards at the back of the shelf? I shoot mostly NFAA field and hunter rounds. 10 to 80 yards.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Chris Hill said:


> What kind of wood did you use? I have never seen anybody shoot an arrow out of a self bow that looked like it was going over 165fps. Might be because I never see anyone pull them more than 26". 192 fps is good speed finger shot with laminated bows.


An aggressive design and hard maple. If I'm around 165, it's usually 50# and 540 gr arrow. I didn't say they held together long, but they did hit that speed. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Corene1 said:


> Not quite understanding what you are saying , My current point on is 42 yards Gap at 25 yards is 1.25 in the window of the riser and back of the shelf is 80 yards. Would the border bow tighten the gap and lower my point on to say 35 yards and still carry 80 yards at the back of the shelf? I shoot mostly NFAA field and hunter rounds. 10 to 80 yards.


Put a mark on the centre of a target. Point on with one bow hits centre.right where you aimed. Repeat with a covert. And the arrow will hit the top of the target. Not where your looking.
All bows shoot flat over 10 yards. Fast bows shoot flatter for longer.
Meaning that you can aim lower at longer distances.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I think the confusion comes in by way of differentiating the difference between....

*"FAST BOWS VS POWERFUL BOWS"*

One doesn't necessarily equal the other...in some instances by a large margin where vast differences in trajectory are obsrved.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Demmer said:


> An aggressive design and hard maple. If I'm around 165, it's usually 50# and 540 gr arrow. I didn't say they held together long, but they did hit that speed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Id expect that from a hill style bow at 30" draw. And hills are faster than self bows.
You can get about 165fps from 11gpp from a widow at 28"
Id expect a widow to beat a self bow hands down.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well folks?...it took a bit of doing to get where I'm at in 3 days of owning this bow but every step of the many processes I cycled through were well worth the effort whereby?...

I knew what I wanted to make of this bow...a balls out, meat collecting killing machine.

I also knew I wanted arrows of standard diameter to provide a suitable amount of surface area to accommodate 3X5" Shield Cut Feathers...why?...because I want perfect flying monster sized broadheads even when conditions and execution may be less than perfect where 3X5 feathers will offer up a wealth of...."correction".

I paid attention to a lot of what's being said in the latest CH threads and listened closely to the folks who've owned and shot them awhile now as they have far more experience than I to offer up where it seems that an arrow attitude of "Center-Shot" comes highly recommended and here's what I've achieved...










Now contrary to me hearing some claim that the CH riser is cut 5/16ths (.312") past center?...by my measurements I got quite a bit less than that where placing the quiver side of my riser on a dead flat rock surface?...I got a measurement of exactly 1" up too the strings center....then I measured the riser wall thickness and got .775" (bare wood/no strikeplate)...this means I had a measured .225" between my strings center and the hard wood riser wall...which imho?...ain't bad at all and plenty enough as that would provide for center-shot of a .450" diameter shaft! (sans a strike-plate) and what this meant for me was....

I had .225" to work with and with my .305" diameter shafting?....that left me with .070" to work with for a strike-plate where last night I got...










and if the color tone of that strike-plate leather looks familiar?...it should...because it was cut from the back strap of an old Damascus glove I had laying around and Thank God because my double-sided mounting tape is .040" and the glove leather was about .030 "thin"...










I was all disappointed my new dozen Carbon Express .350 Mayhem Hunter shafts were flying wildly weak at their 31" full length with 250gr, 200gr, 175gr, and even the 145gr that tuned in my 29" .400's and these .350 Mayhems didn't even come close to flying straight until I got down too a measly 85gr point so today?...I thought?..

*"Hey dumbazz!...they are only .050 deflection stiffer...CUT THEM DOWN!"*

and I did...loping a full 2"s off taking them down too the same 29"s as my .400's that wouldn't handle more than 145gr points and then?...

I pulled the same routine I first did with the .400's...

3 bare shafts...each one with different point weights of 175gr, 200gr and 250gr and only had to shoot those 3 shafts one time to clearly see?...

*"I HIT PAYDIRT WITH THE 200GR POINTS!* 





















I'm a very happy archer at the moment!


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Bill,
You won't have an issue with BH flight. 
I can get Zwickey Deltas to fly with field points on 4" feathers. However, like you, I still prefer 5".


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Demmer said:


> An aggressive design and hard maple. If I'm around 165, it's usually 50# and 540 gr arrow. I didn't say they held together long, but they did hit that speed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Thanks, post up a pick of one sometime.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Borderbows said:


> Put a mark on the centre of a target. Point on with one bow hits centre.right where you aimed. Repeat with a covert. And the arrow will hit the top of the target. Not where your looking.
> All bows shoot flat over 10 yards. Fast bows shoot flatter for longer.
> Meaning that you can aim lower at longer distances.


 There are only 2 shots at 10 yards on a 28 target field round most are between 20 and 65 yards. It sounds as though the border bow would increase the distance of my point on and would also increase the gap at targets in the 20 to 40 yard range, essentially making me have to aim lower at the medium distances. The bow I am shooting is pretty fast by some standards . Checked it again this evening on another chrono and got a 198 average over 10 shots. My quest is to tighten the gap between 15 and 40 yards making them easier to shoot consistently while still having an arrow that will carry 80 yards using the shelf as a sight reference. No stringwalking allowed in my division. Finger must be touching the nock and only one anchor point. For longer distances past point on, I use the various parts of the plunger button and arrow rest for distance references. Doing it his way gives me 9 reference points for distance between 44 and 80 yards. I do appreciate your input though.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

The easiest way to flatten out your trajectory between 15 and 40 yards (or any distance) is to use the least amount of fletching possible and go with the most narrow arrow possible to maintain that downrange velocity.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Corene1 said:


> There are only 2 shots at 10 yards on a 28 target field round most are between 20 and 65 yards. It sounds as though the border bow would increase the distance of my point on and would also increase the gap at targets in the 20 to 40 yard range, essentially making me have to aim lower at the medium distances. The bow I am shooting is pretty fast by some standards . Checked it again this evening on another chrono and got a 198 average over 10 shots. My quest is to tighten the gap between 15 and 40 yards making them easier to shoot consistently while still having an arrow that will carry 80 yards using the shelf as a sight reference. No stringwalking allowed in my division. Finger must be touching the nock and only one anchor point. For longer distances past point on, I use the various parts of the plunger button and arrow rest for distance references. Doing it his way gives me 9 reference points for distance between 44 and 80 yards. I do appreciate your input though.


This is where cnc made wooden risers struggle to keep flexability in manufacture. Custom sight windows are possible. Where the user can tell the manufacturer to cut the sight window. To a certain size. Giving them a sight mark for the bunnie shots. This distance is dependent on your anchor.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

the top of the window is cut at a distance above the arrow that reflects the eye to anchor, as to allow parrallel arrow flight (line of sight vs flight of the arrow) meaning the 10-25 yard shots are sightmarked.
this distance can be from the shelf, or from the button location.
choose a riser length that suits the size of window you need.

this gives the gapper a close in sight mark. while the point on can be tuned to a usable distance as per normal tuning methods. giving you a longer sight mark.

then the archer can bisect the differences between the two known upper and lower "sight marks". 

this was a techneque used in european archery in the 1970s. cant speak for american archery. cultural methods are what they are, but CNC and mass production prevents these methods.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

All of this has me thinking about another set of limbs.
Hex 7.5H, mediums, 53#.
It still counts as only one bow even if I have 2 sets of limbs, right?


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I am sure Sid has something. ..


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Hey Mr. Bill...I liked the glam shot in the tree. That's one dangerous lookin' rig! Enjoy, Rick.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bill2311.
We have 2 pairs of 53lbs and 1 pair of 54lbs hex7.5 H limbs waiting to be finished with no customer. Meduims


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> the top of the window is cut at a distance above the arrow that reflects the eye to anchor, as to allow parrallel arrow flight (line of sight vs flight of the arrow) meaning the 10-25 yard shots are sightmarked.
> this distance can be from the shelf, or from the button location.
> choose a riser length that suits the size of window you need.
> 
> ...


Sid, won't moving the rest shelf up halfway up the sight widow and then tiller the bow according? Well that's how I got 101 yards out of my compound without moving only to part as I can remember? Now on the recurve its smaller changes so I just move the nock up or down to get a different point on. Never worked it out to 80 tho. Well that's why I ask. 
Dan


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bill 2311 said:


> All of this has me thinking about another set of limbs.
> Hex 7.5H, mediums, 53#.
> It still counts as only one bow even if I have 2 sets of limbs, right?


Sounds good to me....I like the performance, power and handling of my new too me 60"/45# CH so much?....I deemed it a top choice for 3D/Plinking and stumping as well and just bought a used set of 37# medium Hex7's to make it...

_*"MY EVERYTHING BOW"*_

This (1) bow...is going to make a couple of my bows hit the classifieds. 

The only one I'm keeping besides this CH with two sets of limbs is my Kraken Longbow. 😎


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

That is awesome Bill 

Bill 2311

I have 2 bolt down CH Risers and 5 sets of limbs that fit them plus the ILF CH and a set of ILF limbs 

I also have Hex 5,6.5 and CV limbs 

My bolt down CH's are the only bows I shoot these days unless I'm Bowfishing


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rickstix said:


> Hey Mr. Bill...I liked the glam shot in the tree. That's one dangerous lookin' rig! Enjoy, Rick.


Thanks and it really is a neat little bow that even though only measures 53" tip-to-tip when strung?....feels like I'm loosing a longer than 60" bow and coming off the string nice and clean....despite it's < 4 1/2' length...it's a dream bow for the Hunting/3D woods! 



JParanee said:


> That is awesome Bill
> 
> Bill 2311
> 
> ...


Thanks Joe!...BTW?...you do realize this is all your fault right? LOL!


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

How much can you torque the limbs?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> How much can you torque the limbs?


in 1999 we came out with a limb called the XP10 limb, it ran carbon at 45 deg to the line of the limb. This was our breakthrough in limb evolution.
XP10 stood for Cross(X) Ply 0.010" thick. the hint was the X. every limb we had seen ran carbon at 90 degs to the limb.
indoing so we noticed a massive increase in Torsional stability.
this was the start of the hex program. in that in 2002 we had a hex3 limb, in 2004 we released the hex4. 2007 the hex5. etc etc
All top teir limbs now have enhanced TS.
all using the same method we adopted in 1999. 

here is an old video now but it comes with a MASSIVE WARNING. DO NOT DO THIS TO YOUR BOWS. 

this is a hex6 limb, but what i can say is, we have come along way since 2011, when this video was taken

http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/Borderbows/media/00048.mp4.html

ps, Photobucket seems to have taken a real dive speed wise.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Borderbows said:


> in 1999 we came out with a limb called the XP10 limb, it ran carbon at 45 deg to the line of the limb. This was our breakthrough in limb evolution.
> XP10 stood for Cross(X) Ply 0.010" thick. the hint was the X. every limb we had seen ran carbon at 90 degs to the limb.
> indoing so we noticed a massive increase in Torsional stability.
> this was the start of the hex program. in that in 2002 we had a hex3 limb, in 2004 we released the hex4. 2007 the hex5. etc etc
> ...


You guys are obviously doing great work over there. The recurve I have shot thus far is noted for being more difficult to torque than most other recurves but I can still torque it using just my thumb and forefinger which is one of the main reasons why I prefer shooting a longbow over a recurve (I'm more accurate with a longbow). 

Have you ever thought about making any longbows or very long recurves (66-70")?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> You guys are obviously doing great work over there. The recurve I have shot thus far is noted for being more difficult to torque than most other recurves but I can still torque it using just my thumb and forefinger which is one of the main reasons why I prefer shooting a longbow over a recurve (I'm more accurate with a longbow).
> 
> Have you ever thought about making any longbows or very long recurves (66-70")?


They make long bows and long recurves  






They make ILF limbs and risers also


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

We make longbows. The hawk is our reflex deflex short longbow. Maxing out at 66", pete ward has a review of it.
And our Harrier Which comes in 2 grip types. Our long bows have taken world podium places and have had a glass fiber free construction since 2006.
On the other hand. You can get a covert hunter in 25,23,21,19 and 17" lengths. With extra short, short meduim long and extra long length limbs. We have had this range available in the black douglas range since 2001 through an evolution of limbs. Xp10, xp30. Hex4 hex5 hex6 and now a more advanced hex6 derivative.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

To add to what Jinks has noted about atrow diameter and centershot. ..
I have 5/16 and 18/32 arrows. Same length, same spine, same points.
The 5/16 arrows shoot better for me. I am confident it is just the combination of strikeplate thickness and resulting centershot.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JParanee said:


> They make long bows and long recurves
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Joe, I think you need some anti-inflammatory supplements for your poor swollen arms....


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bill 2311 said:


> To add to what Jinks has noted about atrow diameter and centershot. ..
> I have 5/16 and 18/32 arrows. Same length, same spine, same points.
> The 5/16 arrows shoot better for me. I am confident it is just the combination of strikeplate thickness and resulting centershot.


Bill....Thanks for bringing that up because?...I think I only mentioned that particular observation on TT and never shared it here where now seems like a great time as shamelessly copied and pasted... 

***************************************

Here's how my Covert Hunter tuned with 29" GT.400's and 145gr points....










And it also tuned well with 29" CX Mayhem Hunter .350's w/ 200gr points...











and the one thing BOTH OF THESE Shafts have in common is?....

*"They Fall Into The...STANDARD DIAMETER...Class Of Arrows"*

now why do I embolden that?...because?...

as I sat at work today mulling over Bowmania's tuning dilemma?...the thought crossed my mind that maybe...(just maybe)...he's using a smaller diameter shaft...as my mind reflected back of how while I experimented with several strike-plate thicknesses?....I was sort of stunned by the size of the....

*"Rather Large Corner Radius Of The Covert Hunter Riser"*

where I found myself doing something I don't recall doing much of on other bows where I found myself having to vigorously rub the bottoms of my (several) strike-plates down into that huge corner radius where the very bottom portion of my strike-plates took on the curvature of that radius where I then thought?...

"Ya Know what?...if a guy were to use a small diameter arrow?...there's a good chance it could be...

*"ROCKING IN THAT CRADLE"* (so to speak)

in which case?...you could attempt tuning till the cows came home and accomplish nothing but frustratingly inconsistent tuning results...so?...

When I got home from work?...I went to work...first with my Starrett Radius Gauges where had I put my readers on?....I'd of seen that the 7/32" (.218") Radius gauge was actually a bit small and that the corner radius of my Covert Hunter riser is actually closer too 1/4" (.250")....










now?...with due respect too Borders?...I can clearly see why they would lean towards a larger radius like that as since they did cut these wood risers so far past center?....

*"The Larger Radius Yields Greater & Much Needed Corner Strength"*

But?...if the savvy tuner doesn't either compensate for this by using a thick shelf plate annnnd?...."Standard Diameter Arrows"?....there's a great chance....

*"THE ARROW DIAMETER CENTER POINT WILL WIND UP BELOW THE RADIUS TANGENT POINT"* 

and as a result?...be left "Rocking In The Cradle" rather than being consistently abutted up against the riser wall itself!....and?...NOT GOOD!

Here I have a fat yellow line (indicating the radius tangent point)

a thin yellow line (running through the witness mark of my standard diameter shafts)

and a red arrow pointing out how my strike-plate is left wrapping that radius at the far end.....











and just a glory view from the side opposite....











Do the math?...with a .125" shelf plate?...you need at least a 9/32" diameter shaft to get above that radius tangent point where if you're running 9/32" shafting with a thinner than 1/8th" shelf plate?

or?...

using skinny shafting such as VAP's without seriously jacking that shelf plate?...

you could be trying to tune this bow while shooting out of the risers corner radius and if so?....

Keep your hat on or you'll be pulling your hair out.

Hope that "might help" at least some of my Covert Hunter shooting brothers out there and L8R, Bill.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Well in my first chrono test of this 60"/45# Hex7 equipped Covert Hunter I used..

GT5575 (.400 spine) arrows cut too 29"s that hit tune with 145gr screw-in points that weighed 420grs for a 9.4GPP and got 196/195/195FPS for (3) shots loosed.

Not too shabby for a 45# bow drawn too my 27 1/2" length of draw but?...

I just felt the level of lethality could be greatly enhanced out of this Hex7 Covert Hunter by increasing arrow weight which IMNSHO?...increases Kinetic Energy which is why I went with a stiffer spined arrow to support a heavier point weight with...

Carbon Express Mayhem Hunter shafts spined .350 and also cut too a length of 29"s that hit tune with 200gr points and weigh 520grs (exactly 100gr more) for an 11.5GPP and got?...






And I'm real happy with a 45# bow that's throwing 520gr arrows at 180FPS+!


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Off topic question but where do you guys get your leather and double sided tape to make your rest/side plate at?

You have damn good form to be able to consistently hit within 1-2 fps on each shot through that chrono Jinkster.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> And I'm real happy with a 45# bow that's throwing 520gr arrows at 180FPS+!


I'd say you're good to go kill something 

Now, to arrange the free time to get out of your poor wife's hair!

Who's close enough to Florida to peer pressure Jinks into a Field Trip?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> Off topic question but where do you guys get your leather and double sided tape to make your rest/side plate at?
> 
> You have damn good form to be able to consistently hit within 1-2 fps on each shot through that chrono Jinkster.


I use soft sided Velcro or calf hair for side plates ... both come with adhesive on them 

For shelf material I exclusively use seal skin and barges cement to keep it on


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

The double sided tape I get at my local Ace Hardware store. I get the exterior grade. 
The leather comes from old tabs and gloves. Work boot tongues work well too.
Some guys like velcro, but I find it wears quickly.
Currently I have a Bear plate and Bearhair shelf. So far, so good.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Joe,
Are they my 53# limbs?


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