# UNDERSTANDING BRACE HEIGHT - PSE X Force



## 88 PS190 (Sep 26, 2006)

How does an STS drastically effect nock travel? are you claiming that just in the final moments post impact because of the bending of the string that the nock travel has been thrown off?

Assuming you have fair nock fit it should matter after the thing hits.

I do not dislike PSE

But I strongly dislike their comparisons to other popular bow systems,
reasons.

1. The bows IBO differently for a reason, anyone familiar with the draw of a mathews solo cam knows how smooth they are.

2. accuracy, pro archer, then Pete shepley as an everyday archer??? please

Advertise by putting emphasis on its qualities compared to other speed bows with similar IBO, with point out noise levels at those speeds with other bows that make that speed.

And to have Pete say that he's not aware of other bows that are that fast, then he must not be that in touch with the world of speed bows.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I've seen some pretty fair reviews of this bow here...far from close minded.


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

BigBuck Man said:


> I was reading the X Force reactions and noticed two things. First, this is the most closed minded web site I have ever read. Everyone just wants to trash everyone that doesn't shoot the bow they shoot.
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.
> For example, if anyone is open minded enough, the X force dynamic brace height when shot on a high speed camera is actually within a 1/4 inch of the other bows tested, even though they have up to 1 1/2 inch higher brace height.
> The other historical problem with short brace height bows is that the arrow is on the string longer. That is eliminated by looking at the dynamic brace height and speed.
> Hopefully someone will read this that actually wants to learn something and note just trash what they personally shoot.


No one is making you read anything here so if you don't like it then don't bother.

STS effects nock travel in a negative way?


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## machinegun74 (Jul 24, 2005)

Why is PSE so deperate to sell these bows? I mean I dont have a thing against PSE and all but Ive seen them spamming archery sites, with X Force this and X Force that. Im brainwashed, I must own one. Since I can now shoot at stuff with two pins one for out to 50 and one for 100 since Im just an average Joe.


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## spaz 85 (Mar 7, 2007)

88 PS190 said:


> How does an STS drastically effect nock travel? are you claiming that just in the final moments post impact because of the bending of the string that the nock travel has been thrown off?
> 
> Assuming you have fair nock fit it should matter after the thing hits.
> 
> ...



They are comparing each of the top manufactures bows that they choose to produce and tout as their "top" or big bow for that year. So the comparison of PSE's top bow vs Mathews top bow is what it is. Just because the Dren was outperformed in the ballistic gel test all the Mathews guys are whining about unfair comparisons if they dont like it then Mathews should go the other way next year. I'm sure that when Mathews first come out with the Blackmax they took the same approach comparing it to other companies.


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

My mind is closed?I learn nothing,and that goes for everyone else here?
I detect some negativity.


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## BigBuck Man (Feb 23, 2007)

*Not everyone is close minded.*

I shouldn't have said everyone. I'm sure there are some people who are open minded. I just get sick of everyone bashing. And half the time they don't understand what they are talking about.
Sorry for those I offended.


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## heavy dart (May 4, 2005)

Not offended. I'm not interested in speed bows,but love PSE.They got some hot shooting bows,as seen at Vegas.


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## BigBuck Man (Feb 23, 2007)

88 PS190 said:


> How does an STS drastically effect nock travel? are you claiming that just in the final moments post impact because of the bending of the string that the nock travel has been thrown off?
> 
> Assuming you have fair nock fit it should matter after the thing hits.
> 
> ...


First question is the about the STS system. When you look at these on high speed photos you will see that the string is dramatically effected because it drastically moves the nocking point down up to 1/2 inch as it wraps around the STS system. Even a 1/4 inch of compromised nock travel is a lot in the archery world. It has nothing to do with "nock fit". It is nock travel. If a bow needs to be dampened to that degree, it is better to go with the dampners attached to the bow limbs at the top and bottom like the Matthews and the Browning Illusion. These at least counter act each other. 
As for Pete's statement. There is no other major bow company that makes a real 350 fps bow and especially one that is quiet and vibration free. The Black Max didn't and it sounded like a gun going off. I promise you Pete Shepley isn't out of touch with anything in the archery market.


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## marforme (May 30, 2006)

BigBuck Man, ya like working for PSE? :wink:


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## xxSPOTTSxx (Mar 4, 2007)

Theres a bow company about to lose its free rain maybe thats what everyone is upset about? (certain fan boys)
Nickel size 10 rings on indoor animal league targets at 326 fps from a joe pretty accurate for 6 inch brace height.
What speed bow could PSE compare to the X force somebody would just say it was biased wouldnt they?
Great shooter well worth the money i spent would buy competition color if it was available.


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## 88 PS190 (Sep 26, 2006)

How about APA's or are the too scared of opening up competition?

here's the forum link where the video of an STS is, I don't see it throwing off nock travel....

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=29975


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## spaz 85 (Mar 7, 2007)

88 PS190 said:


> How about APA's or are the too scared of opening up competition?


The latest video I saw compared x-force - guardian - dren - and vectrix. mainly the big bow companies or as PSE may see it their biggest competition. Yes the x-force and black mamba would be a good comparison to see however PSE may not see them as a major competion in a corperation sense. Anyway PSE couldn't compare its bow to all the companies - it would be a two hour infomercial. Although I would watch it I doubt many would as most people get bored rather quickly


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## xxSPOTTSxx (Mar 4, 2007)

spaz 85 said:


> The latest video I saw compared x-force - guardian - dren - and vectrix. mainly the big bow companies or as PSE may see it their biggest competition. Yes the x-force and black mamba would be a good comparison to see however PSE may not see them as a major competion in a corperation sense. Anyway PSE couldn't compare its bow to all the companies - it would be a two hour infomercial. Although I would watch it I doubt many would as most people get bored rather quickly


I would hold a carry in at the shop shoot a few rounds and enjoy Pete talking about this awesome speed bow. As long as they shot a few animals.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I have slow motioned that video on the Mathews website and can find ZERO vertical nock travel issues on that video. Hell, even at full speed you can see it. Thanks, 88 PS190, I learned something today....and I'm not even a big STS fan...talk about being open minded :darkbeer:


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## stackin pins (Apr 21, 2006)

*What.....*



matforme said:


> BigBuck Man, ya like working for PSE? :wink:


DID I HEAR YOU OR WAS THAT A PPPPPSSSSSEEE BIRD OF THERE..:wink:


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## BOXER01 (May 24, 2006)

BigBuck Man said:


> First question is the about the STS system. When you look at these on high speed photos you will see that the string is dramatically effected because it drastically moves the nocking point down up to 1/2 inch as it wraps around the STS system. Even a 1/4 inch of compromised nock travel is a lot in the archery world. It has nothing to do with "nock fit". It is nock travel. If a bow needs to be dampened to that degree, it is better to go with the dampners attached to the bow limbs at the top and bottom like the Matthews and the Browning Illusion. These at least counter act each other.
> As for Pete's statement. There is no other major bow company that makes a real 350 fps bow and especially one that is quiet and vibration free. The Black Max didn't and it sounded like a gun going off. I promise you Pete Shepley isn't out of touch with anything in the archery market.


Not meaning this in a bad way but look at elite my impulse is shooting 340 @ 30" 70# and 380gr with a peep loop and E-supressor and is no shock and queit. Not blowing elites horn or any thing I have a Bowtech,Diamond and Bear bows and just apreciate good bows no matter what the name. Seems pretty open minded to me.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

I'm waiting for the X-force and the Envy to arrive, I had the Drenalin and Iron mace, enough said, I don't want to rubbish any bows. 
I still have the Guardian and Synergy, so I guess I'll be doing my own evaluation.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

BigBuck Man said:


> I was reading the X Force reactions and noticed two things. First, this is the most closed minded web site I have ever read. Everyone just wants to trash everyone that doesn't shoot the bow they shoot.
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.
> For example, if anyone is open minded enough, the X force dynamic brace height when shot on a high speed camera is actually within a 1/4 inch of the other bows tested, even though they have up to 1 1/2 inch higher brace height.
> The other historical problem with short brace height bows is that the arrow is on the string longer. That is eliminated by looking at the dynamic brace height and speed.
> Hopefully someone will read this that actually wants to learn something and note just trash what they personally shoot.


You come on here whining about bashing and then bash the STS yourself. Get real.


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## new guy (Apr 1, 2005)

machinegun74 said:


> Why is PSE so deperate to sell these bows? I mean I dont have a thing against PSE and all but Ive seen them spamming archery sites, with X Force this and X Force that. Im brainwashed, I must own one. Since I can now shoot at stuff with two pins one for out to 50 and one for 100 since Im just an average Joe.


this is funny...a mathews shooter complaining about a company trying to get a new product info out to everyone...


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

machinegun74 said:


> Why is PSE so deperate to sell these bows? I mean I dont have a thing against PSE and all but Ive seen them spamming archery sites, with X Force this and X Force that. Im brainwashed, I must own one. Since I can now shoot at stuff with two pins one for out to 50 and one for 100 since Im just an average Joe.



You notice that question does not get answered...:zip: 

Their advertising gets more truth in it as we go. When I watched that video, I know a couple things for certain: The Vectrix was not timed correctly, the Dren was out of spec, as the Guardian may have been as well, since I know that it is quieter than the Dren and X-Force. I know for a fact that the Vectrix is about 8fps faster and the Dren can exceed its IBO as well. You notice the whole time PSE emphasizes that 32fps difference, even when their bow does not hit IBO speed.

Also on the grouping of the 60yd shot, that was about a 6" group, which is very respectable, but your are going to tell my Mr. Shepley took a 102yd shot with grouping like that... I sure as would not. You may want to get out a tape measure next time to measure those groups, that first 20yd group by the Professional shooter was about 1" maybe a little less, not close to being in the same hole...:embara: 

I think, instead of trying to talk their bow up, that they need to do normal advertising. I know that they are going after Manufacturers Flagship bows, but the fact that when they do these types of comparison's, the truth is stretched. 

I want PSE to compare their bow to the Envy...:darkbeer:


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## JOE PA (Dec 13, 2003)

*Stop complaining!*

I get the comparisons using each of the other manufacturers "flagship bows." Makes sense, you are trying to sell against them. I think the "dynamic brace" thing you speak of is a possibility. I actually thought the second video was pretty well done, especially compared to the first. My only nitpiks were doing the speed and KE as separate tests, when if you know the speed and arrow weight, you know what the KE is going to be anyway. The other one is the removal of string suppressor, quieting stuff. Still, all the bows were pretty quiet, and the PSE is very quiet considering the performance. I think the whole thing boils down to a pretty competitive market. You have to do something to sell you bows, and in making them look good, the hype often gets out of control, so people are going to be sceptical, and/or defend the bow they already purchased. You are getting your attention. People are noticing the bow. Many are buying, a few are quibbling over the tests in the videos. Goes with the territory. Some like lots of advertsing, some don't. I once took a trip across the country for a month. I am proud of the fact that I did not once stop at a McDonalds.


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

new guy said:


> this is funny...a mathews shooter complaining about a company trying to get a new product info out to everyone...


Give me a break...ukey:


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

I heard Eric Griggs shot one of these at Indoor Nationals...how did he do?


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## new guy (Apr 1, 2005)

Jeff K in IL said:


> You notice that question does not get answered...:zip:
> 
> Their advertising gets more truth in it as we go. When I watched that video, I know a couple things for certain: The Vectrix was not timed correctly, the Dren was out of spec, as the Guardian may have been as well, since I know that it is quieter than the Dren and X-Force. I know for a fact that the Vectrix is about 8fps faster and the Dren can exceed its IBO as well. You notice the whole time PSE emphasizes that 32fps difference, even when their bow does not hit IBO speed.
> 
> ...



what are you talking about...NORMAL advertising?should they tell people how the single cams are the only good cam of archery and that others are inferior...was that normal? is it normal to brainwash a herd of sheep into thinking they have the only real bow on the planet....the fact is that this is one hell of a bow and you fanboys dont like that it was compared to your greatsest bow on earth...i agree that the truth was a little streched on this video because i have shot all of these bows and the mathews was the loudest and the bowtech was the quietest...put a string supressor on the pse and it would be equal...not bad for a hunting bow that shoots 348fps.


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## new guy (Apr 1, 2005)

Jeff K in IL said:


> Give me a break...ukey:


sure thing fanboy


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

new guy said:


> what are you talking about...NORMAL advertising?should they tell people how the single cams are the only good cam of archery and that others are inferior...was that normal? is it normal to brainwash a herd of sheep into thinking they have the only real bow on the planet....the fact is that this is one hell of a bow and you fanboys dont like that it was compared to your greatsest bow on earth...i agree that the truth was a little streched on this video because i have shot all of these bows and the mathews was the loudest and the bowtech was the quietest...put a string supressor on the pse and it would be equal...not bad for a hunting bow that shoots 348fps.


Far from what I said, I never said Single Cams were the best.

I am confident that if you compared those bows again, when set in spec, on quietness it would follow in this order..

Bowtech
Mathews/PSE
Hoyt

I am not the one being a fan boy, I am just bringing up the real aspects of the tests. It is kind of like that Easton Bow Mapper that was posted by the Dave Hall guy.. I have not seen one thing that was completely truthful, that was done by PSE so far in their advertising schemes, and in no way am I saying that Mathews or anyone else has been truthful.

Once an independent archer, does testing on each bow (Norb Mullaney for example) and does decibel testing, with the bows in spec; then just maybe I will give props...:darkbeer:


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## new guy (Apr 1, 2005)

Jeff K in IL said:


> Far from what I said, I never said Single Cams were the best.
> 
> I am confident that if you compared those bows again, when set in spec, on quietness it would follow in this order..
> 
> ...


i do not agree with the "dave hall" post either but i do agree with the video when it comes to how quiet the pse is...i cant argue with the speeds because i didnt chrono all of the bows...maybe the other bows arent tuned in the video...who knows but what i do know is that the pse is a very nice bow that is amazingly quiet for the speeds its producing...i never said you said the single cams are the best...i was refering to the comment you made about real advertising and how mathews advertises...
i am not a fanboy...look at my past post and tell me what brand i shoot...then tell me im a fanboy...im only responding like i have because so many people are crying because they put the x-force up against their pride bows and are saying its not a fair test...who cares...this bow is just as quiet and alot faster...so what...does this mean its the end of the world???no,it just means pse came out with a real nice bow.people should be happy about it because now that the other companies have seen the responce from this bow,the speed guys may see more speed bows from their brand of choice...

maybe i just dont understand all of the bashing....


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## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

machinegun74 said:


> Why is PSE so deperate to sell these bows? I mean I dont have a thing against PSE and all but Ive seen them spamming archery sites, with X Force this and X Force that. Im brainwashed, I must own one. Since I can now shoot at stuff with two pins one for out to 50 and one for 100 since Im just an average Joe.


ITS CALLED ADVERTISING !!! And your just noticing PSE. Your not looking out side the box. No one advertises more than Mathews and Bowtech. Heck, Bowtech use's UFC's Tim Sylvia to promote. And Orange County Chopper's to build them a bike. Though it's cheesy and corny as hell. They get there point across.... 
Pse isnt doing anything that the other companies arent doing.


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

Doc said:


> I heard Eric Griggs shot one of these at Indoor Nationals...how did he do?


I shot a 300/57x the first day, but I did get a 300/60x the second. I was shooting 2613's going 283 fps. I shot really well, but I just made three bad shots the first day and they would have been out regardless of what bow I shot. I shot a 300/58x round a few days ago with ACE's going 338 fps too. 

I know there's a lot of hype going on around the X Force. The only thing I can tell all of you is that I've been really impressed with this thing. For what it's worth I have yet to shoot ANY bow that aims as good as this X Force. Is it the limbs....the cams...the riser...heck, I don't know but this thing just aims incredible and shoots just as well. It's a lot more than just a speed bow. I wouldn't know what to think either if I hadn't experienced it for myself, so get out and try one and you can make your own decision. :wink:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BigBuck Man said:


> I was reading the X Force reactions and noticed two things. First, this is the most closed minded web site I have ever read. Everyone just wants to trash everyone that doesn't shoot the bow they shoot.
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.
> For example, if anyone is open minded enough, the X force dynamic brace height when shot on a high speed camera is actually within a 1/4 inch of the other bows tested, even though they have up to 1 1/2 inch higher brace height.
> The other historical problem with short brace height bows is that the arrow is on the string longer. That is eliminated by looking at the dynamic brace height and speed.
> Hopefully someone will read this that actually wants to learn something and note just trash what they personally shoot.



Sounds like the new PSE X-Force is a pretty sweet rig!:darkbeer: 

And, you are correct....to a point, you will find differing opinions here on AT. Sometimes those differing opinions can get aggressive unfortunately. 

While taking these aggressive into consideration, it seems as though you can be pretty bold in your statements as well. 

Everyone here does NOT want to trash every bow that they do not personally shoot. In fact, those among us that act this way are a small minority for sure.

As to your closed minded comment.....I can understand how it seems that way at times, but you must remember one thing..........Archery Talk has BY FAR the most hits, posts, views, of any website related to target archery and bowhunting on the net.

That is why manufacturers absolutely love to display/show off their products here................

Whether they are paying sponsors.....or not.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

EGriggs said:


> I shot a 300/57x the first day, but I did get a 300/60x the second. I was shooting 2613's going 283 fps. I shot really well, but I just made three bad shots the first day and they would have been out regardless of what bow I shot. I shot a 300/58x round a few days ago with ACE's going 338 fps too.
> 
> I know there's a lot of hype going on around the X Force. The only thing I can tell all of you is that I've been really impressed with this thing. For what it's worth I have yet to shoot ANY bow that aims as good as this X Force. Is it the limbs....the cams...the riser...heck, I don't know but this thing just aims incredible and shoots just as well. It's a lot more than just a speed bow. I wouldn't know what to think either if I hadn't experienced it for myself, so get out and try one and you can make your own decision. :wink:


Thanks for the input:thumb: I was over looking at this bow and the guy working the booth told me you chose this to sling arrows and I hadn't heard how it went....nice shooting. What kind of weight did you have on it for balance....rest type?


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## poppa5685 (Jan 29, 2007)

just compare apples to apples. don't play the brace heigth game. all things being equal is the only complete and fair way of comparing anything.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

BigBuck Man said:


> I was reading the X Force reactions and noticed two things. First, this is the most closed minded web site I have ever read. Everyone just wants to trash everyone that doesn't shoot the bow they shoot.
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.
> For example, if anyone is open minded enough, the X force dynamic brace height when shot on a high speed camera is actually within a 1/4 inch of the other bows tested, even though they have up to 1 1/2 inch higher brace height.
> The other historical problem with short brace height bows is that the arrow is on the string longer. That is eliminated by looking at the dynamic brace height and speed.
> Hopefully someone will read this that actually wants to learn something and note just trash what they personally shoot.


Let's get a few things straight here.

Administration of this site knows who you are, and where you are posting from. We do not appreciate the recent spamming of PSE products on this site, especially when there is imbedded criticism of AT within the post. This is bad form to say the least.

We are going to take a hard look at the recent manufacturer spammings on this site, and we are going to strictly enforce our rules. We absolutely will not allow further spamming in the General Archery Forum, and we may consider limiting posts from non sponsors in the Manufacturer's forum as well if we determine that actions are or have the impact of spamming.

I highly encourage you to consider purchasing an AT sponsorship. Given the attempt to leverage your presence here, it would only be fair.


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## moose68 (Feb 9, 2007)

wow, you should do some research before you speak, ever heard of Elite, APA, HCA, just because it doesnt say mathews , hoyt , or bowtech on it , doesnt mean its not legit. just means the others didnt spend bookoo bucks on ads, and then sell their bows at higher prices to compensate. do a fair compairison, to other high energy bows like the mace,envy, mamba,synergy , ect. three of those bows have better BH to boot and come within a few feet a second of the x. i shot the x, great bow, but not "the " bow. matter of fact , shoot it against the envy,bet its luster will faid a little


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

moose68 said:


> wow, you should do some research before you speak, ever heard of Elite, APA, HCA, just because it doesnt say mathews , hoyt , or bowtech on it , doesnt mean its not legit. just means the others didnt spend bookoo bucks on ads, and then sell their bows at higher prices to compensate. do a fair compairison, to other high energy bows like the mace,envy, mamba,synergy , ect. three of those bows have better BH to boot and come within a few feet a second of the x. i shot the x, great bow, but not "the " bow. matter of fact , shoot it against the envy,bet its luster will faid a little


Agree moose...Pse X-Force vs Elite Envy vs HCA Iron Mace vs APA Black Mamba....hop to it fellas there are enough of you posting...get to testing:wink:


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## selectarchery (Oct 12, 2002)

BigBuck Man said:


> There is no other major bow company that makes a real 350 fps bow and especially one that is quiet and vibration free. The Black Max didn't and it sounded like a gun going off. I promise you Pete Shepley isn't out of touch with anything in the archery market.



I shot this bow at the ATA show. I liked it, but you can tell it's a speed bow. It's not vibration free - no bow is. It has the vibration of a speed bow and the draw of a speed bow, but that's what you get if you want something to go that fast (from the bows I have shot that have huge speed claims). To say it's quiet and vibration free just isn't true and cheapens what may be alluring about the bow. 

Jim


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## machinegun74 (Jul 24, 2005)

new guy said:


> this is funny...a mathews shooter complaining about a company trying to get a new product info out to everyone...


Im a paying customer, just like Mathews pays to put those ads in magazines. Do I buy into it, no not really, I think they leave it open to interpretation. Read RK's post about PSE spamming, theyve done it here and on the Mathews forum. Thats all Im saying, Im actually happy with where the Drenalin landed in the tests I think it fared pretty well myself.

By the way sign any PSE contracts lately?:zip: :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

I shot this bow in Louisville last weekend and can say without a doubt the best speed bow I have ever shot. The vibration wasn't anymore than any other bow and it doesn't have any dampeners on it, and was very very quiet. The draw cycle was to be expected for a 350 bow but I found little difference from it to my Slayr I have now. I have shot many speed bows and this is so far removed from them a direct comparison would be pointless.

As far as apples to apples comparison I doubt you will find it since we can only compare what is produced. I have to agree with PSE not comparing with the likes of a Black Max, APA, Black Knight it would be pointless since none of these are even in the ball park except speed. Most likely the Elites and Iron Mace would be a closer comparison.


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## new guy (Apr 1, 2005)

machinegun74 said:


> Im a paying customer, just like Mathews pays to put those ads in magazines. Do I buy into it, no not really, I think they leave it open to interpretation. Read RK's post about PSE spamming, theyve done it here and on the Mathews forum. Thats all Im saying, Im actually happy with where the Drenalin landed in the tests I think it fared pretty well myself.
> 
> By the way sign any PSE contracts lately?:zip: :wink:


10 of them...:wink:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

*
Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.*

Hmmm.. I guess I’m pretty ignorant then. My understanding of Brace height is all things being equal. The less brace height a bow has the more power stroke it has as well.. More power stoke means more room for potential error and More room for potential error means the archer needs to keep slightly better and more consistent form .

BUT I guess somebody more knowledgeable like your self thinks NONE of this matters and that DYNAMIC brace height is what truly matters.. 

Please enlighten the rest of us ignorant fools on the Merits of DYNAMIC brace height compared to the KNOWN and PROVEN facts surrounding static brace height 

You PSE boys are doing a HUGE disservice to what probably will be a solid and nice BOW out of the PSE stable this year,, Ya’ll should leave the advertising and facts to the REAL pro’s


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

centerx said:


> *
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.*
> 
> Hmmm.. I guess I’m pretty ignorant then. My understanding of Brace height is all things being equal. The less brace height a bow has the more power stroke it has as well.. More power stoke means more room for potential error and More room for potential error means the archer needs to keep slightly better and more consistent form .
> ...


Sometimes the truth hurts....


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## john09040 (May 15, 2006)

*ttt*

I dont care about the tests but my X-Force shoots great very quiet shock free holds great.What more do you want.I think if you actually shoot one you will see this is one great bow.I sold my Prestiges to get one and it shoots just as good with 15fps more speed and much less shock and noise.Anything this great will draw in some opposition.If you hate it dont buy one its that simple


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## hawgdawg (Sep 8, 2002)

poppa5685 said:


> just compare apples to apples. don't play the brace heigth game. all things being equal is the only complete and fair way of comparing anything.


The other three companies don't have bows with the short brace height this year. So what do we compare the PSE with. Maybe the three will follow suit and produce one next year. Pse only took what was available as they felt was the main competion to test. Good marketing in my opinion. I may have to try the xfacto but it'll have to super sweet to replace the tribute.


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## machinegun74 (Jul 24, 2005)

new guy said:


> 10 of them...:wink:


Aleast we have that out in the open.:darkbeer: 



hawgdawg said:


> The other three companies don't have bows with the short brace height this year. So what do we compare the PSE with. Maybe the three will follow suit and produce one next year. Pse only took what was available as they felt was the main competion to test. Good marketing in my opinion. I may have to try the xfacto but it'll have to super sweet to replace the tribute.


I think Hoyt did a bang up job this year with the Vulcan, that said Id love to see Mathews do a major rework of the Black Max. I think its overdue.


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## BigBuck Man (Feb 23, 2007)

stackin pins said:


> DID I HEAR YOU OR WAS THAT A PPPPPSSSSSEEE BIRD OF THERE..:wink:


I live in Louisiana, not Tucson and I'm not a rep for them.


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## BigBuck Man (Feb 23, 2007)

ccwilder3 said:


> You come on here whining about bashing and then bash the STS yourself. Get real.


I'm not baxhing the STS. I said it had some problems. That is much different than coming on here and talking badly about a bow they have never even shot.


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## spaz 85 (Mar 7, 2007)

[. I know for a fact that the Vectrix is about 8fps faster and the Dren can exceed its IBO as well. 


Now Im not bashing but you might want to get your chrono checked or you are using really really light arrows.
My buddy shoots a Dren and it IS A REALLY NICE BOW. I dont shoot a Mathews but I like his Dren alot it is extremely smooth. We chrono'd it and although we were using a heavier hunting arrow - from what I saw I doubt that the Dren will exceed its IBO of 320fps. That being said it is a shooter and will wreck arrows if you try to shoot groups.

Also why is it unbelievable to so many that PSE could produce a good bow?


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## tinman1 (Jan 29, 2006)

*Too Bad*

I'll just stick with my ratty ole Crackerized Allegiance. Slow and noisy, but it will do. LOL


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

I'd like to see some manufacturers STEP UP and send an independent test group a "SUPER TUNED" sample of thir best bow. Have a test group of say 50-100 lucky AT members as 'testers' and let the average Joe decide!! 


My Elite e500 will spit out some serious speed and it doesn't have the feel of a speed bow.


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

MoNofletch said:


> I'd like to see some manufacturers STEP UP and send an independent test group a "SUPER TUNED" sample of thir best bow. Have a test group of say 50-100 lucky AT members as 'testers' and let the average Joe decide!!
> 
> 
> My Elite e500 will spit out some serious speed and it doesn't have the feel of a speed bow.



I volunteer.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

BigBuck Man said:


> I'm not baxhing the STS. I said it had some problems. That is much different than coming on here and talking badly about a bow they have never even shot.


For me, whatever point you were trying to make about the X-force was lost in your attack on the STS. 
PSE is better served by people like E. Griggs and D. Watson than someone like you. They extoll the virtues of PSE Bows without badmouthing others.

Fanboys like you do more damage than the critics of the products you love so much.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

hawgdawg said:


> The other three companies don't have bows with the short brace height this year. So what do we compare the PSE with. Maybe the three will follow suit and produce one next year. Pse only took what was available as they felt was the main competion to test. Good marketing in my opinion. I may have to try the xfacto but it'll have to super sweet to replace the tribute.



Not accurate....Hoyt has a bow called the Vulcan. 6" brace Height. It will NOT compete with an X Force as the IBO is only 325, but it would be closer than the Vectrix.

I feel the REAL issue here is NOT the fine PSE bow itself, but the presentation of the bow.

Someone from the PSE factory has presented us with this thread, and in the proccess has slammed........

AT
STS


BTW, while I have no doubt that BigBuck Man is fairly knowledgable concerning compound bows, I am more than surprised that he would make accusations towards the STS when a hooter shooter does NOT back up his claims.

I am even more surprised that he would bash a website that he is using free of charge as a vehicle to advertise for his place of employment.:sad:


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## outdoorattic (Feb 25, 2006)

How can anyone come on here and bad mouth AT. We all get to read about anything and everything archery. Some of the things aren't even about archery but the great people of AT have a opened mind and created a place for that to. They are very good about people posting just about anything. If you are jealous of all the posts the other bows are getting or the slamming your line takes, guess what.... go someplace else! I for one love AT and reading the good and bad of everyline. Some guys can take the my bow is better than your bow to far but guess what.....don't read that thread!


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## Jeff K in IL (Nov 4, 2005)

BigBuck Man said:


> I live in Louisiana, not Tucson and I'm not a rep for them.


Does your IP follow that statement...


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## justabowdude (Nov 9, 2005)

*Incredible !!!!!*

Now, the only people that have anything good to say about the X-Force ALL work for the Manufacture !!!... Pitifully priceless.


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## Dean Lawter (Feb 15, 2005)

*True Test*

Will we see them on the Pro course at Augusta? That would be proof that these guys really think the brace height and ATA does not matter.

I'm sure it is as great of a speed bow as we have seen and I would love to shoot one to see for myself. Maybe Norb could explain the difference between static and dynamic BH. For now I'll hold to my ignorance on BH and forgiveness.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

I Shot the X-force last week at Walnut Creek Arcery in Upland Indiana. This was the shop owners Bow,set up at 29" draw and 65#.I was keeping them in the white and getting 326fps with a 360 grain light speed. Bill then cranked it up to 70# still in the white at 332fps.I shot this Bow a dozen times or so and I was impressed.The draw cycle was a bit more harsh than my Pro 40 at 30.5" drawat 70# but not that bad.I think it is a very good bow and if I had the money I would own one.:set1_applaud:


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## rogbo (Jan 2, 2004)

Recordkeeper said:


> Let's get a few things straight here.
> 
> Administration of this site knows who you are, and where you are posting from. We do not appreciate the recent spamming of PSE products on this site, especially when there is imbedded criticism of AT within the post. This is bad form to say the least.
> 
> ...


If the implication of this is true (and I have no reason to believe the it is not....Then it is completely inexcusable and you, friend, should be on the soup line. I hope that Pete S. knows NOTHING about what you are doing. If he does (or finds out) he should do the "donald trump" on you himself. IF you are a PSE employee posting like this on this site, the shame you have brought upon a historically great company is immense. I use to have a carrera that I loved but if this is the type of chacanery (sp) that goes on, I will never own another PSE. I think all that shot vibration has loosened a screw for a stunt like this to be pulled. Maybe an STS would have helped.


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## machofelix (Apr 6, 2007)

*Hahahaha*

I hear all you guys whinning about PSE should have compared it to this bow or that bow. They can't compare it to every hunters favorite bow. How's this for an idea......YOU COMPARE THEM AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK!!!! Bottom line is I have shot this bow and I have shot the Drenalin. In my opinion the Drenalin is a smoother draw, but I found liitle to no difference in noise and very little difference in hand shock. I won't mention the speed difference because there is no comparison. I hit a 6 pt. buck in the shoulder this year (first time ever)lost him, I know for a fact that if shot the same arrow with the X Force instead of my AR-34, I would have had alot of steaks. And that's all I have to say about that.


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## Limey (May 6, 2005)

Anyone noticed that the Xforce riser looks a bit like the Martin Slayer:wink: 

Crumbs I sound like Mr Chuggaukey:


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## tsilvers (Nov 16, 2002)

centerx said:


> *
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.*
> 
> Hmmm.. I guess I’m pretty ignorant then. My understanding of Brace height is all things being equal. The less brace height a bow has the more power stroke it has as well.. More power stoke means more room for potential error and More room for potential error means the archer needs to keep slightly better and more consistent form .
> ...


 Centerx..... One queston... In theory what if a shorter brace height bow generated more string speed and actually released an arrow free and clear before a higher brace height bow with a shorter power stroke did or does??? what then is more forgiving or more susceptable to error... There is a time element or variable that can not be ruled out... Food for thought...

As far as after market STS's systems go... Remember most seem to be made up of one rubber bump stop located centrally in the path of the string... Assuming one is shooting in controlled environments and constant temps my experience(s) have been all positive... However factor in fluctuating temps (ie.hot to cold) and physical properties change in those types of stops.. Cold temps lead to a harder durometer or rubber hardness and not necessarily consistent throughout the body or mass of the stop... The end result has the potential of negatively effecting accuracy as the string can be adversly effected or influenced totally dependent upon it's reaction when making contact... I witnessed it once on a friends setup during a 3d round... After sighting in indoors and shooting indoor 3d leagues all winter we made an early february outdoor shoot and as we shot his bow got colder and his impact started dropping.... We speculated at the time and reaffirmed our thoughts when we went back indoors and everything warmed up... His impact came back.. Still pure speculation still on my part but certaintly believe this was the cause as his bow spec'd out everywhere else to his marks.. Would have loved to have a slow speed camera to test this.. I have heard that Mathews has tested this on the dual limb tip type stops and they perform fine due to the duality and location of the stops.. Would like to know if some of the guys here who make the single centrally located types have ever tested them for consistency in different changing temps...


Cheers
Tim


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

88 PS190 said:


> How does an STS drastically effect nock travel? are you claiming that just in the final moments post impact because of the bending of the string that the nock travel has been thrown off?
> 
> Assuming you have fair nock fit it should matter after the thing hits.
> 
> ...


Did your mom drop you on your head again!!


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

centerx said:


> *
> Second, nobody even understands brace height. Most importantly, the static brace height of a bow is not what matters. The real test is the dynamic brace height. That is simply how far the string moves forward on the shot. This is why STS systems are popular. The problem with the STS system is that it dramatically effects nock travel and not in a good way.*
> 
> Hmmm.. I guess I’m pretty ignorant then. My understanding of Brace height is all things being equal. The less brace height a bow has the more power stroke it has as well.. More power stoke means more room for potential error and More room for potential error means the archer needs to keep slightly better and more consistent form .
> ...


ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey: ukey:


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

machinegun74 said:


> Why is PSE so deperate to sell these bows? I mean I dont have a thing against PSE and all but Ive seen them spamming archery sites, with X Force this and X Force that. Im brainwashed, I must own one. Since I can now shoot at stuff with two pins one for out to 50 and one for 100 since Im just an average Joe.


Belly full of vinegar and water.....


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

xxSPOTTSxx said:


> Theres a bow company about to lose its free rain maybe thats what everyone is upset about? (certain fan boys)
> Nickel size 10 rings on indoor animal league targets at 326 fps from a joe pretty accurate for 6 inch brace height.
> What speed bow could PSE compare to the X force somebody would just say it was biased wouldnt they?
> Great shooter well worth the money i spent would buy competition color if it was available.


I agree, I am bashing the five spot with an X-force right now!!! Shooting it better at 314 than my 40" mojo!!!!


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

EGriggs said:


> I shot a 300/57x the first day, but I did get a 300/60x the second. I was shooting 2613's going 283 fps. I shot really well, but I just made three bad shots the first day and they would have been out regardless of what bow I shot. I shot a 300/58x round a few days ago with ACE's going 338 fps too.
> 
> I know there's a lot of hype going on around the X Force. The only thing I can tell all of you is that I've been really impressed with this thing. For what it's worth I have yet to shoot ANY bow that aims as good as this X Force. Is it the limbs....the cams...the riser...heck, I don't know but this thing just aims incredible and shoots just as well. It's a lot more than just a speed bow. I wouldn't know what to think either if I hadn't experienced it for myself, so get out and try one and you can make your own decision. :wink:


Hey Eric, are you shooting this bow at any 3d's this year...like IBO??


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

Limey said:


> Anyone noticed that the Xforce riser looks a bit like the Martin Slayer:wink:
> 
> Crumbs I sound like Mr Chuggaukey:


Ohh, without a doubt!! Mirror images!! Limbs and cams are the same also!!


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## Bonehead1 (Oct 20, 2005)

outdooratticinc said:


> How can anyone come on here and bad mouth AT. We all get to read about anything and everything archery. Some of the things aren't even about archery but the great people of AT have a opened mind and created a place for that to. They are very good about people posting just about anything. If you are jealous of all the posts the other bows are getting or the slamming your line takes, guess what.... go someplace else! I for one love AT and reading the good and bad of everyline. Some guys can take the my bow is better than your bow to far but guess what.....don't read that thread!


He didn't bad mouth At, just some of the narrow mided idiots that post here!! What's wrong with that, hate realism???


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

Bonehead1 said:


> Hey Eric, are you shooting this bow at any 3d's this year...like IBO??


You bet I am!!!:thumbs_up Bedford, IN can't get here soon enough. 

This is what my X Force has been doing for me at 50 yards shooting 338 feet per second. :wink: I started shooting at 40 yards the other day and I moved back to 50. I moved my sight down a "few" clicks :tongue: and this was my first group (8 arrows).

Anyone who is even thinking about this bow really owes it to themselves to at least go try one out.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

EGriggs said:


> You bet I am!!!:thumbs_up Bedford, IN can't get here soon enough.
> 
> This is what my X Force has been doing for me at 50 yards shooting 338 feet per second. :wink: I started shooting at 40 yards the other day and I moved back to 50. I moved my sight down a "few" clicks :tongue: and this was my first group (8 arrows).
> 
> Anyone who is even thinking about this bow really owes it to themselves to at least go try one out.


Wow! That's impressive!

Eric, you need to crank that thing down to 60 pounds and come shoot some FITAs with us!:thumb:


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## jcmorgan31 (Nov 9, 2005)

EGriggs said:


> You bet I am!!!:thumbs_up Bedford, IN can't get here soon enough.
> 
> This is what my X Force has been doing for me at 50 yards shooting 338 feet per second. :wink: I started shooting at 40 yards the other day and I moved back to 50. I moved my sight down a "few" clicks :tongue: and this was my first group (8 arrows).
> 
> Anyone who is even thinking about this bow really owes it to themselves to at least go try one out.


I guess when you come to my registration tent at Bedford, and I ask if you want to be checked for speed or weight, you will be shooting through the chrono right??????????:wink: :wink: :wink:


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## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

Unfortunately when some of you come up with statements like, 
"I know for a fact the bows were out of tune" I know for a fact this or that how do you expect anyone to pay any attention to anything you say. Were you there ?? :zip: These negative, bashing type threads are getting real old. I don't care what bow or company you're bashing it's unnecessary and childish. If you have first hand experience, in other words you have actually shot the equipment then I would be more than interested in what you thought. But when all you can say is, I know that can't be true, I know for a fact that that's not possible, I know, I know, I know, but you have no experience to base your "FACTS" on maybe you should post your information on a "Fantasy Forum". 
I really enjoy and respect the thoughts of those people who make statements like: "I have not shot the bow, it does have a short brace height which I don't like, but I have shot the Dren, Vectrix or Guardian and in my "OPINION" I liked or disliked this or that about them. I'll wait to make a judgement on this or that piece of equipment until I have personally shot it". Those types of statements are believable, non-confrontational and have value.
I am very pro-PSE, and am not afraid to admit it. I believe this year's line up of new PSEs is the best in quite a few years. :darkbeer: I will not put down other manufacturers or their products. I like some and some I don't but that is only my opinion, of which I'll keep to myself. If I have the experience with a product and I believe in it I will be the first to give it a thumbs up :darkbeer: 
Please remember it is only my opinion. If for some reason I don't care for the product.....:zip: Again it's only my opinion. If you PM me and ask me directly what I feel about a product I have experience with I will answer you candidly with my feelings but I will not say anything about it on a public forum. I could be 100% off base and don't want to be unfair to anyone.
This rant is not meant to bash anyone in particular I just felt it needed to be said.
Thanks for listening,
DFA


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