# A discussion on the failure of competitive archery in Ontario



## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I have recently come back to the sport of competitive 3D archery after a 10 year hiatus, and i still see all the same problems in this province that existed 10 years ago. To be blunt when a competitive shoot comes up (or one that is meant to be competitive i.e. not your local rod and gun club shoots) we generally have two types of archers, people that dont show up, even though somehow at the local shoots they tear it up handing in 400 plus scores on a regular basis, and people that show up to shoot but do not shoot competitive classes (open money class for instance) even though they hand in 400 plus scores. Do you guys honestly prefer a plastic trophy to real competition in a money class? I just dont get it. 
I have heard theories that guys are just too afraid of their real score to be grouped with other shooters that score honestly, i have heard the magic pencil theories and all that, though i find it tough to beleive. perhaps it is true though, are cheaters the real reason we cant have a decently competitive shoot with real rules like "All groups must be busted"? Come on guys.
I know there are good shooters in this province, certainly enough to have a showing better than 3 in the money class at the "provincial" champs. Why arent guys shooting this? bad attitudes? Afraid of your real score? Cant handle shooting with anyone not your friend? The "im not going to win so why try?" attitude? Give me a break.
Although at the end of the day i am not the top dog, i still step to the stake every time with the attitude in my mind that "im better than anyone at this and there is no way they will beat me". I come WIN. And i come to do it against the best. That is my attitude, call me arrogant if you want, i call it gamesmanship. And if you cant compete with that attitude, well i just feel sorry for you. Yes we are suppose to have fun too, but any kind of "championship shoot" is not your kids house league T-ball game. 
I have a lot of respect for how the americans run their shoots (ASA IBO) and i feel the OAA needs to step up and follow suit with their rules the same way. Untill we do, competitive archery in the province of ontario is destined to fail IMO. 
Some will slam me for this and thats fine, if you think i am calling guys out, well i am. hopefully the good honest guys will stand with me on this. I just feel some light needs to be shed on the subject in order to start in the right direction. We shouldnt have to go out of province to find real honest competition, and we honestly should see greater numbers at provincial events. Am i right?


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Put up the money and I am there!!! It's pretty simple come to the P&P shoot next weekend and you will see very good archers shooting it out for a 1200$ purse! I go head to head with scope shooters while I use fixed pins. Ted is trying to bring out the best and class them together!!! the competition is always tight. If it was 10 years ago you left the sport you will find the game has changed a fair bit, 10 years ago you could win with a 365, not gonna happen these days. As far as open, who wants to shoot it when you are shooting by yourself, then you get accused of entering the class just to win because nobody shoots it and it is also not worth the extra money if you are in it by yourself. Come shoot MBR we show up and lots of competition in that class trust me )


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## cheaplaughs (Mar 27, 2005)

Welcome back. Bring your friends also


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Bring lots of friends that want to shoot for money! I am in


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

as bow bandit states come to p and p next weekend 3rd and 4th 1200 in cash class and 300 in trad class ....and I peer group second day in cash categories so no pencil wins or gimmmies and cash class will get bigger if guaranteed monies covered..... then half of each entry will be turned over to winners as well....other half to charity....one of the best shoots around .......and defiantly best door prizes to be won ....


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Guys dont want to travel. To be honest, imho, its more fun to travel to 'big' shoots in the states and often its the same or even less driving time to hit those vs. Something across ontario. Michigan ibo triple crown shoots pull more than oaa champ shoots. Its just the way things are in ontario. Sucks but true.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

"Who wants to shoot open when you are shooting by yourself" this is exactly the counter productive attitude, how many people say that at each shoot? And "its not worth the extra money", seriously? 20$ is too much over the top for a competitive money class? Nnnahh. To me this all sounds like excuses.
I am very glad to hear someone out there is hosting a shoot with a money pot and structured rule systems, my hats off to you sir and keep up the good work. I would be there in a heartbeat, unfortunately in that regard my baby is to be born in the next few days so i dont see me taking off to a shoot within the week being possible haha. 
As well, michigan IBO draws more shooters because of the rule structure and organization of the IBO, it can be like that in ontario but for some reason the competitors here refuse to make it happen. I really want to see those numbers here in ontario, but continueing the way we are will not make it happen


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Mi ibo draws more shooters as they follow an established rule and shoot 'structure' laid out by its established and popular governing body, the ibo. There are 10x the shooters in mi and the usa and the highways are better and more direct saving time and gas is cheaper. Competition is tougher. Ontario is just too spread apart to draw what few competitors that feel like going. Face it, ontario is born to lose in this regard.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Btw, on this topic, search function is your friend. Beat to death this topic is in the 12 or so years i been on at.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I have to say, I'm guilty of supporting iBO over OAA every time. For me its all about depth of classes. If I'm going to drive 5+ hours for a shoot, I want good competition and a busy shoot.
I think we all need to think about supporting the OAA and growing 3D but I'm not sure how we can help really.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

We have the ability to change the system. PM the OAA President or email him off the OAA site. Mike is open to all ideas and I know he acts on them. So you can continue to beat the worn out dead horse or step up and help do the work. Simple.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Topper1018 said:


> "Who wants to shoot open when you are shooting by yourself" this is exactly the counter productive attitude, how many people say that at each shoot? And "its not worth the extra money", seriously? 20$ is too much over the top for a competitive money class? Nnnahh. To me this all sounds like excuses.
> I am very glad to hear someone out there is hosting a shoot with a money pot and structured rule systems, my hats off to you sir and keep up the good work. I would be there in a heartbeat, unfortunately in that regard my baby is to be born in the next few days so i dont see me taking off to a shoot within the week being possible haha.
> As well, michigan IBO draws more shooters because of the rule structure and organization of the IBO, it can be like that in ontario but for some reason the competitors here refuse to make it happen. I really want to see those numbers here in ontario, but continueing the way we are will not make it happen



Well it sounds like you have all your excuses in a row! While you have been off for the past ten years I have been shooting so you should probably get out and shoot a little to find out what is really going on. Like others have said in this post this horse is long gone. Some are trying to make some change you just need to pay attention for a bit and you will figure out who they are. The numbers are out there but they are wide spread, Ontario is as big as three states. Quality events that create a reason for archers to attend will be the only way 3D archery will be sustainable, especially with great events a short drive away in the US.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Topper1018 said:


> "Who wants to shoot open when you are shooting by yourself" this is exactly the counter productive attitude, how many people say that at each shoot? And "its not worth the extra money", seriously? 20$ is too much over the top for a competitive money class? Nnnahh. To me this all sounds like excuses.
> I am very glad to hear someone out there is hosting a shoot with a money pot and structured rule systems, my hats off to you sir and keep up the good work. I would be there in a heartbeat, unfortunately in that regard my baby is to be born in the next few days so i dont see me taking off to a shoot within the week being possible haha.
> As well, michigan IBO draws more shooters because of the rule structure and organization of the IBO, it can be like that in ontario but for some reason the competitors here refuse to make it happen. I really want to see those numbers here in ontario, but continueing the way we are will not make it happen



Well it sounds like you have all your excuses in a row! While you have been off for the past ten years I have been shooting so you should probably get out and shoot a little to find out what is really going on. Like others have said in this post this horse is long gone. Some are trying to make some change you just need to pay attention for a bit and you will figure out who they are. The numbers are out there but they are wide spread, Ontario is as big as three states. Quality events that create a reason for archers to attend will be the only way 3D archery will be sustainable, especially with great events a short drive away in the US.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

I am just wondering if Topper actually shot at Pronvincials this year, and what class he shot.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Call it an excuse if you want, but tending to my wife and my days old first born child is a good reason not to be at an archery shoot. God forbid someone has a legitimate "excuse" not to shoot eh? Dont be foolish.
And yes I did shoot the provincials Robert! I had the balls to step to the plate and shoot OPEN money class too! Although i got my hat handed to me by 2 other awesome shooters, i would do it again in a heartbeat, because i beleive the shooters here can change the system by doing so and legitimately competing. My second shoot in 10 years. I wear an Athens Factory Staff shooter shirt and shoot a black an orange Excell, come talk to me anytime! Wouldnt it be nice to see more shooters with my attitude? for the good of us all? What class did you shoot? and were you satisfied with your tin medal or plastic trophy? I dont beleive this horse is long gone or dead guys, i just wanted some support and i get atitudes like "thats just the way it is". I refuse to accept that. I love this sport and will do my damndest to help it in every way i can.
As for, "while youve been gone for 10 years Ive been out shooting", you go back and live my life for that 10 years buddy then we can talk. I dont feel the need to speak any farther on that subject so let it alone.


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

the reasons times are tough in Ontario now are the same reasons times have been tough for the past 7 or 8 years. Many courses have closed, no one wants to volunteer, clubs don't want to spend money on new targets of build good courses and the "target" people don't show up because (add excuse of the day here).
...not to mention the price of fuel.

the exception is Durham, Halton, YCB and P+P.

IMO if you build a good course and run a good event all the other stuff will fall into line. K50 won't help and calling people out won't help. what will help is to volunteer at your local club and bring people out to events.

btw, I think Durham had 7 people in cash class this past weekend.


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

now if you want to discuss truly competitive archers who travel that's another discussion. These days they cant give away a spot on the OAA travel team. Ontario has never sent any of its best 3d archers anywhere. I know I might ruffle a few feathers but fact is fact. We have the IBO Worlds in our back yard, folks from Ontario placing in the top 5 year after year and Ontario pays no attention whatsoever.
Look at Quebec who sends and entire team down...
When I put this discussion out to our general archery population here in Ontario I get the same people rolling their eyes and turning up their noses So until we all get on board, together and united things stay the same.


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Hey Topper.Sounds like you have had a hard run.
But. If you are just gonna come on here to stir the pot, just don't.
That is what I'm getting from this thread.
If you are not having fun maybe you came back to soon.
If the money class is your thing then s##t or get off the pot.
We don't need more BS p**sing and moaning on here this is for helping archers.
Not driving them away.
Go and shoot and have a good time or stay home IMO.

Cheers Shawn


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Quote - "And yes I did shoot the provincials Robert! I had the balls to step to the plate and shoot OPEN money class too"

Perhaps a little less hostility Eric, I was just trying to assess if you are speaking out of ignorance or that you had an informed opinion. Attacking or calling out your peer group is probably not the best approach.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Oh, I should also mention that I am sure Athens Archery is thrilled with your attitude and how you are representing their brand.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

As for, "while youve been gone for 10 years Ive been out shooting", you go back and live my life for that 10 years buddy then we can talk. I dont feel the need to speak any farther on that subject so let it alone.

Everyone has problems, yours don't really carry any weight with me, everyone has different priorities and that is your prerogative, but you should have probably got out and met a few more people before opening this can of worms! Good for you you shot money class! Does that make you the big man on campus! You should probably look at what the competitors in some of the other classes shot before calling them out, it could get embarrassing for you on the range. 

I am all for money class if it is worth shooting! p&p is a perfect example and people show up to compete for the money because it worth the Drive. Get you local club to put up that kind of coin and I am all over it, good luck your gonna need it with this crowd


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

My apologies for coming off hostile guys, not my intention. I'm a passionate guy who wants to see things change for the good of the sport, I see my frustrations have shown in the way I have written an again apologies for that, but I'm not trying to come off as the big man on campus as it has been put. I feel the only way to have the opinions I have is to have been in the open category an experienced it, I'm not embarrassed by my score. To me that means little, I know guys can shoot and I want to see them competing for real in the top class, whether I rank first or last. I leave my heart in everything I do including shooting, if I don't win I have to get better, I still go in with the attitude and intentions of winning and I want to see other guys do the same. I know a few that are excellent shots that don't and won't compete in Ontario and I would just really like to see that change


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Many of us are with you on the Change topic, search some of the old threads here about the OAA and you will find piles of info on this topic, the reactions are from some who have beat this topic to death without great results, but like others have noted contact the OAA or local clubs and see if they are on board with your ideas. 

There a very few more passionate about 3D archery than me around here, the problem i have is the amount of competing I do gets in the way of volunteering time to organize something better. I have mad lots of suggestions to the powers that be over the years but it seems if you really want any sort of change you have to take the bull by the horns and do it yourself. 

Contact Dave the guy you shot with at the OAA and he may be able to bring you up to speed on this topic.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

We don't have to attack each other here, I will admit I am as guilty as anyone, I didn't want this to become a slamfest on any particular person. If that's all we can do I will ask the mods to please remove this thread. As shooters I feel it is on us to make things work here at home and we need to do it together, not at each others throats. 
Very glad to hear of the turn out at Durham as well guys, I would have made it 8 in the category but the babies due date was moved up to last Sunday. He still is waiting to be born and the anticipation is killin us. Once the dust settles I promise you will see me out there again.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Ah, but Slam fest makes the day go by faster  I kid I kid, good luck with the little one. You have now finished your initiation to AT and the OAA topic!!!!


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Haha I suppose so indeed man. Whatever the consequence it IS good to be back everyone. Perhaps next time I should make an attempt with the search function after all. Lol


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Ok, so here's a question. Why will guys in the states drive 8,9 or more hours to compete in legs of the iBO triple crown. Or why will guys from Ontario (me included) drive the same distances to compete over there but not here. All I heard from guys this year is "I will shoot York and Halton but no way I'm going all the way to the Soo for a one day shoot", I can't figure it out.
I didn't do the provincials because of bow style issues but I admit, I wouldn't have gone to the Soo anyway, yet I happily drove 9.5hrs to go to the iBO Trad Worlds.
I think the key is to try and make these big shoots here actually matter to the guys, hold them near more dense areas of population and ensure the courses are up to scratch.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Because we are crazy of course!!!! And I went to the Soo


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

*can't shoot if no money ?*

hey sponge bobs, looking 4 fun? 
August 10-11 Lambton-Kent is hosting the Ontario Field Championship, see ya there....


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

There are people who travel long distances to go to shoots in Ontario.

...just not enough.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

JDoupe said:


> There are people who travel long distances to go to shoots in Ontario.
> 
> ...just not enough.


frickin' big country, hah?
"right person in right time" will win whatever we miss :set1_applaud:
I can't also afford a Nationals 3d/FITA/Field, 1300 km door to gate and 120 bucks per night for 5 days


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Hey keep the name "Bob" out of this, I am busy building target butts right now so some money shooters new born kids will have a place to shoot with targets to shoot at in Ontario. It's not all about me! LOL


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

What the hell are you wearing Attila?


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

JDoupe said:


> There are people who travel long distances to go to shoots in Ontario.
> 
> ...just not enough.


And that's the problem. I keep out of compound stuff so can only comment on proper bows  but look at the Trad and RU classes for the TC, non existent. When i won the TC in 2009 there were 4 people in Trad that year. I think people will travel to compete in a top class field but not to shoot against one or two guys.
I have started dialogue with an iBO exec member to host an Ontario Trad champs here like they have in CA and TX, I think it would be great for archery here to try this next year.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Bow bandit said:


> What the hell are you wearing Attila?


U can lift me up with a magnet


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## cheaplaughs (Mar 27, 2005)

Who's the guy with the cute smile. Sponge bob square pants ???


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## doc2931 (Feb 9, 2010)

Ideas are great, but posting them on a forum will not get anywhere. As I have said time and time again on here I am very open to any ideas that people may have. I can't say that every idea will be implemented but the more ideas that are presented the better chances of finding those that will work with what we have in Ontario.

Those that know me, know that I am very open to anything that will promote and increase archery in the Province. Those that don't have no idea of my background and what I am about. The OAA as a Provincial Sport Organization must work within certain guidelines prescribed by the Government because we rely on the base grant funding that we receive from them. Although many think that the OAA has endless amounts of money the fact is that budgets are very very tight and some money is earmarked by the Government as to where and how it can be spent. This we have no ability to change. We also are required to send teams to tournaments such as Nationals, Ontario Summer Games and Canada Winter Games to continue receiving the amount of money that we do, which has been decreasing over the past few years. If we were to stop sending teams to these events we would lose what funding we get all together. The Government recognizes only specific events when it comes to calculating funding and support, unfortunately for those that are not recognized funding must come directly from OAA general revenue. So the OAA would love to be able to support more teams and more archers going to tournaments all over but we are limited by the funding and money that we have. It is things such as this that many people do not understand or are not willing to accept. 

So if anyone has ideas on how archers as a whole can help promote the sport in the Province I am all ears. Please feel free to email them to me anytime [email protected], everyone talks about making changes but lets see how many actually step up and present ideas to the OAA to work with and move toward change where they are needed.

Michael Martin OAA President


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

GenesisAlpha said:


> Hey keep the name "Bob" out of this, I am busy building target butts right now so some money shooters new born kids will have a place to shoot with targets to shoot at in Ontario. It's not all about me! LOL


I'm not sure if I'm just not getting the joke or what.. But what point are you trying to make with this comment?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

mike as stated gov`t funds only certain venues ....well its time for oaa to educate them and switch their way of thinking ...so now its the exec`s turn to do something... you guys work with the sporting divisions of the gov`t nows the time to make changes its not all about fita and I do shoot fita as you know....and where are stats as per membership for personal venues have not seen yet ...on oaa site this is input that I hope is constructive and not oaa bashing thanks the oaa should attend the pand p shoot this weekend and they mite pick up some pointers.....


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

The involvement doesn't fall under the OAA's duty, other than to put in place a rule stating something along the lines that if you're submitting top level scores all the time (400+), you should be entered into the competitive class and made to pay the extra $20 at the end of the weekend. If the OAA were to instill some sort of rule regarding that, it would help to weed out those "Gimme" point takers and the friend groups that shoot such close scores on the Saturday that they are grouped together on the Sunday. Obviously that would cause some guys to complain, but that's what needs to happen in order for the competitive class to stay alive and actually get some involvement. It's more or less an issue with the competitors themselves and having the gall to make the changes THEY need to make in order to change the sport. It's obvious that these rules work for IBO - and there WOULD be viable money to compete for if the guys in MBO and MBR were made to submit their high scores into the money class. They're all shooting from the same stakes with the same equipment - What difference does it make??? WHY, if you can shoot a 404 and 414 on a two day shoot would you have ANY problem at all with the extra $20? According to the OAA rule book they top up to $100, and the pay out is 50/35/15 (This is going by the letter received by the OAA for participating in the last open cash class. If anyone wants to see a copy of that I have no problem scanning and posting it.) - So if you're submitting scores at that level, you SHOULD be guaranteed to walk away at a maximum $5 loss, if not part of your tournament entry fee back. It really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to have the mentality that "the $20 isn't worth it".. How about changing that attitude by BEING the person that says you know what - it IS worth it- regardless of who is here. I can't even comprehend how somebody can sit there and say "well I'll be accused of being the only guy in the class". It doesn't even make a little bit of sense. And I think that's what Topper is trying to get across here - Regardless of whether 1 or 10 people enter the open class, if you're capable of shooting at competition level, whether it's in Ontario or somewhere in the states for IBO, you should be making a conscious effort to enter that class so that others will be the money pot contributors, otherwise every shoot in Ontario is going to continue to maintain low standards and poor turnouts because there is never going to be any pot larger than $100. There's always going to be someone better than you, and there's always going to be someone worse than you, so why are you limiting yourself to a plastic trophy or a tin medal for $20? Bypass Tim Hortons on the next 5 hour drive and it makes up for it, and might encourage some of the other guys who are shooting 385 and 395 to at least TRY!


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I kind of view it as the great George Chuvalo has spoken about the modern popularity of boxing. "The success of boxing has always seemed to pivot on the success and popularity of the heavyweight division..." 
The way I see it, people both in the sport and spectators of the sport, enjoy seeing the 'heavyweights' (in this case the OPEN shooters IMO) slug it out (shoot it out as it were). not to say i dont enjoy watching the trad guys shoot either, some of those guys are spectacular. When i was involved in the fight game, i always found competition inspired competitiveness. When shoots can play out like the ASA does with thier top 5 shootdowns at the end, man that makes for a fan friendly experience that gets everyone into it. I love watching great shooters shoot, it inspires me to want to be better, to want to be competitive with these guys. If we as shooters can put together a decent size open class with a decent pot at the end, guys will strive for it. And if im right, we gain popularity for the sport, even create a competition that people outside of the game are interested in knowing the results. This falls on us as shooters i think, the way that Ali and frazier gained momentum for the golden days of boxing. I know the OAA works hard for us. mike was in it back when i went to winnipeg and halifax with ontario on my back. but they are limited with what they can do and provide right now, my idea is we look to ourselves to build this sport up. Only then can the OAA and organizations like them have the pull they need to forward the sport the ways they can. Its a working together project that wont happen over night but i think it starts with us.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

This might be an appropriate moment to remind everyone that "the OAA", in the sense that people are using the term, is a small group of unpaid volunteers, most of whom have full time jobs and families as higher priorities. These individuals cannot be expected to take on such an undertaking as seems to be the goal of people posting here. 

It's not fair to compare the OAA, a volunteer-run, sparsely funded not-for-profit organization with a few hundred members scattered over a million square kilometres, to the IBO and ASA, which are professionally (your opinions may vary ) run, profit-making businesses with paid staff, and the advantages of probably 100 times the archery population base and hundreds of national manufacturers (most of whom don't usually look past their own borders) as potential sponsors.

A Canadian or Ontario ASA/IBO equivalent association will have to spring from private or corporate roots, with the goal of building a profitable and self-sustaining business. It will not now and never will come from a volunteer association like the OAA.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't know why people are still focused on the OAA as being the pointed target of this post. It's not fdirected at the OAA at all, it's directed at tournament archers. Nobody has said anything about the OAA being the cause of any of these issues.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I agree, this isn't about the OAA it's about what all of us can do to promote this sport.
Archery hasn't been as popular as it is now for decades, we should be out there promoting it every chance we get.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

bigjono said:


> i agree, this isn't about the oaa it's about what all of us can do to promote this sport.
> Archery hasn't been as popular as it is now for decades, we should be out there promoting it every chance we get.


finally!!!


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

As I see it, a guy who has been out of the sport for a bit posts basically calling out other archers for cheating and that reflects a non competitive pool of archers in Ontario and that is why the money is not there to be had by the heavy weight shooters who would rather go to the states and play with IBO rules instead of the OAA. He then gets called out to bring it on at some p&p shoot that in some eyes should be the model for all OAA events. Some fingers are pointed about who attends shoots and those who have excuses not to. The pot boils over and it becomes a how can the heavy weights who do not have the time to volunteer in the OAA or their nearest club can somehow make the sport better for us all. So what I gleen form this is if I bust my slim bank account from which I have to buy the next lot of new targets from to put up some major cash I will get all the heavy weight shooters down to my end of the province an that will help me build archery back up in my neck of the woods and draw in the other divisions............................maybe.
Sorry but starting two years ago with only three volunteers and a bit of work we now have a beginner class of 22 youth (Olympic) and about another 10 to 20 kids at our regular open shoot on a Monday night, also with an average of 10 to 15 adults. Thursday night has over 40 kids and 20+ adults for the open shoot. Our once a month 3D brings in 30+ shooters and we are seeing more of those entry level shooters coming out to those. We have two classes this month to teach private organizations the sport and we will be setting up and running a 3D for two different Native groups in Aug. All on the backs of volunteers. This is where archery is coming back across the province.
I would love to see some of the heavy hitters that bypass our events and youth programs to run over to the states to stop in just once a year to help promote the sport and help teach kids. But I can not count on that, can I.
Sometimes I think egos get in the way of what is growing archery in Ontario, the provincial orgs are doing the job they can and are held as stated by what the government will and will not support. And they will not put it in the pockets of heavy weights I assure you. So maybe the answer here is to look to the clubs around you, show up and compete at their events and when word gets out where you are going to be in this province "they will come".
Maybe I missed the point here but seeing only 4 or 5 heavy weights in this thread thinking the future of archery in Ontario rests on their shoulder is to be frank, cute. Have a good one guys I hope you find what you need or your pot of gold.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I dont think we were saying anything about guys busting their own bank accounts here, simply that the pot needs to come from the involvement of all great shooters, who top thier classes regularily now. If clubs put up money as a pot thats spectacular, and good on them for their efforts, but we have the abilities to build the pot ourselves too. your obviously running a great program and its forwarding the sport there at the begginner level fantastic, you deserve credit for that. But my goal is building the sport at the tournament end. If you will please go back and re read my post with an open mind, i didnt specifically call guys out for cheating, i talked about haveing heard the opinions about cheating and sandbagging and stated that i find them hard to beleive but that maybe they are true? a long line of questions that were not meant for arguments sake but for each of us to ask ourselves. I did not rear my head and claim i am the best and no one can beat me, simply thats the competitive attitude i bring to stake every time and i beleive more success of the sport hinges on guys haveing similar attitudes. If you dont agree with me thats fine, thats why its a discussion. I will be more than honest in saying i would have been happy to be knocked down to 8th or 9th at the provincials (this is an example) by guys thats are BETTER shooters than me. I know they exist, hell look at the scores. I would have loved to see those guys in our open division, we may have had enough to warrant something like a shoot down at the end of the day. Wouldnt that have been great? I think so. Now granted frustrations boiled over in the next few posts on this thread and i issued my apologies for that and am trying to head it in a different direction now.


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## doc2931 (Feb 9, 2010)

It would be fantastic to see growth in the Open Division, and one of the reasons that the OAA puts in the extra money for it. As many of you have said change is up to the shooters but if and when the OAA can help we will do all that we can within our means. At the last IBO Triple crown from what I understand there were single classes with more entries then our Provincials, we just don't have those kind of numbers to work with. Again any ideas people may have where the OAA can help, please forward them on to me. We can make change if everyone works together in a positive manner. - Michael Martin, OAA President - [email protected]


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## doc2931 (Feb 9, 2010)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> mike as stated gov`t funds only certain venues ....well its time for oaa to educate them and switch their way of thinking ...so now its the exec`s turn to do something.....


The OAA has been trying for years to do just that, I will be meeting with our Sport Consultant to discuss that very topic. Ontario is unique in the diversity of its shooters, unlike other sports who are very International Discipline based. The government unfortunately only recognizes those sports that are Internationally Recognized which is mainly the Olympic disciplines but also include Indoor FITA the World 3D Championships and the World Field Target Championships. We stress every year that Ontario is different and that we have world class shooters in other events that should also be recognized, but to date with no avail. This is an ongoing struggle we have as it has a drastic effect on our grants.

Switching their way of thinking is not an easy task, its would be like telling them that we no longer want to pay taxes. The government has laid out their procedures and requirements and to receive any funding we have to follow that model as it is. But we keep trying to make those changes.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

:happy1: :cheers: :deadhorse
Just waiting to see where this goes... But I know the answer already... Lets hope I'm wrong.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hey Genisis have you shot anything outside your local area? Probably not Would be my guess! If so maybe you should and you might understand why some people think that we can do better with the sport in Ontario! Now you absolutely do not no me or most of the people you are talking about to pose any sort of educated opinion. My local club already does everything and more that you so proudly listed. So thanks for finally catching up to the rest of the province! Kudos's to you for helping with the kids, if that makes you feel whole inside good for you! I help out dozens of people a year with archery related problems as well as shooting a heavy schedule and helping out my sponsors at trade shows which to be honest takes up almost every spare moment I have right now and that is my choice, it makes me happy right now! Like I said before when time allows I will be the volunteer but that does not make my or any others opinion any less valid right now! I can clearly see by your post that you to are caught up in the Olympic bug yourself, which makes you suspect like others in the province with that same flu. I believe most of your distain for the competitive archers who would like to see some change is just routed in jealousy and not fact as you dont even know most of them, you know what they say those who can't, teach! That is just my opinion! To bad that some of our coaches don't need any credentials, might be bad for the up and coming archers! Just saying, oh and I don't know you so that is just a general statement on how I feel about some of these so called coaches! Not all just some. I am only me, a person who loves shooting their bow to compete and hunt! Bigger events appeal to me because I choose to put the time in and try and be competitive at them, travelling in the summer is also great because it beats sitting on the couch. It really does not matter to me anymore if anyone changes anything because we have other options down south but it would be nice if it grew here too. Have a great day


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Hi Chris


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Mike, I'm very happy wih the OAA's top up idea for the money division. I have already spoken to guys who did not know about it and may be willing to compete in that class in Ontario again. This is a step in the right direction and I'm glad we can be on the same page with our goals. It will work. I know it can. We do have world class shooters here and it's time we admit it to ourselves and challenge ourselves on that kind of level wih each other. IMO opinion this is the best way to start, at the root. It's just takes all of us.


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

araz2114 said:


> :happy1: :cheers: :deadhorse
> Just waiting to see where this goes... But I know the answer already... Lets hope I'm wrong.


:user:


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Bow bandit I see you and I are coming to be on the same page too, I'm happy this is a step in the right direction as well. Your right we do have other options down south. And they will be there still, we just can't give up on home. Cross your fingers for me, maybe if my baby is born today I may on the slim chance be able to challenge you at p and p after all haha. Here's to hoping guys.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

BTW, Chris is a good teacher  I have seen his work first hand, the kiddies learn good things with him. 

Hope you get to make it topper it is a great shoot and lots of fun after the Saturday. You must have and understanding wife if she let you go


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Bowbandit,

You and I agree on a lot of things.....but your take on GenisisAlpha is way off base.

Shoots compound, has coaching training, has shot out of his area, and has done a ton for archery in and around his area (this coming from me, who is 8+ hours away from him).

I'm not defending him, as I know he will respond if he feels necessary, I just think that you have voiced an opinion regarding someone you know nothing about and have never met. (I know this last sentence is not grammatically correct.....but I cant figure out how to fix it this early in the morning. Maybe Araz2114 can fix it for me while he enjoys the show?)

Respectfully,

JD


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

How I feel about all this....sorry but when I see conflict like this I want to inject humour. 
Coping mechanism I guess.


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

:icon_1_lol:
ARAZ can't help with grammar.
He's a shop teacher. LOL!
Have to agree with Bandit on his teachings though.
One of the best!


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

Bow bandit said:


> BTW, Chris is a good teacher  I have seen his work first hand, the kiddies learn good things with him.
> 
> Hope you get to make it topper it is a great shoot and lots of fun after the Saturday. You must have and understanding wife if she let you go


He DOES have a very understanding wife who wants him to go and shoot the P+P shoot, and also wants him to go and shoot Running Bear.. However, being that his baby may be only a couple of days old, others have made him feel pretty guilty about going so he has chosen to be with us instead - Pretty stand up if you ask me. If I didn't think both sets of grandparents would skin me like I cat, I would be at both of those shoots as well!! Unfortunately time and priority don't allow for that. I can tell you though, if he were there (And if he does go) His money WILL be in the open class pot, so there is no excuse otherwise. (I think, personally, that the one he has is a pretty rock solid one too.)


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## joshwebb (Feb 23, 2011)

Jeeebuz!!!! Did Shawn and Blake just agree on something??? Lmfao


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Like I said in my post Jay I don't know him, the same as he does not know me! just pointing out some general observations than may or may not apply to him, That is his choice to make. 

Hey topper Dave and I have been discussing your idea and we may have a way of making this money thing fly at the local club level, I would rather discuss it with you and Dave face to face before presenting it. After the little one comes along and you have some time to get out contact us, we can go shoot and throw around some ideas.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

bigHUN said:


> hey sponge bobs, looking 4 fun?
> August 10-11 Lambton-Kent is hosting the Ontario Field Championship, see ya there....
> View attachment 1721466


 Pretty cool piercings Atilla, I assume the pain stopped after the first 3 or 4.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

joshwebb said:


> Jeeebuz!!!! Did Shawn and Blake just agree on something??? Lmfao


No! Bad grammar made it appear that way


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Bow bandit said:


> No! Bad grammar made it appear that way


:lol3:


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

BB. To your first shot at me, no I have not in a long time................Why? Busy trying to get the numbers back up in my area so all forms of archery will be here in the future. Your second point, I agree with we need to work together to get all of archery to better levels from entry into the sport to the competitive level in all disciplines. Third point on knowing you I will leave alone. Fourth point, I read and evaluate and have been though archery since 19, now 54. Owned a shop, had staff shooters with cooperate sponsors and directed clubs for a few years so before you call me stupid please refer to point number three. Back to catching up thanks for the slight on our area, still we would welcome you here. Point five, I enjoy 3D and have for over 25 years so please don't assume where my loyalties are in this sport. If you knew me as I you, I have supported all forms of archery during all my years being involved. Also please do not discredit my ability as an archer, sorry I forgot I am not equal to you as a person or an archer. You are an elite archer and I should hold your opinion above mine as a low life coach who by your direction need your approval to be in archery or talk about it. 
My point was and still is that we need two things in archery, youth and education and the other aspects will follow. Individuals decide which part of the sport they will enter and where those numbers are the best is where we should direct funds through our provincial associations. We as one person stated have seen an upswing in the interest to get involved with archery. Imagine that a young women in a movie is driving the new generation of archers in a lot of north America over the cooperate driven end of the sport. As another here stated maybe you should step up and create a private business that your hands are not tied to government funding and the rules that apply. I actually agree with that and here I will help, call it the OPAA...........................Ontario Professional Archery Association. You could make donations to clubs to help us shorten the distance in Ontario between competitive (high end) shoots that would be the model for other provinces and states. You might find though in running this that there is little time for a shooting career or sometimes even shooting for fun.
I love to hunt with a bow, 3D and teach archery. And I am proud sir of my involvement. It is not about bragging it is about laying the truth out for all to see on the commitment we all make to this sport and receive no pay to do it. God Bless you my friend and have a nice life.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Bandit your speaking my language now. Ill meet up with you guys sooner rather than later.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Like I said Genisis, mostly general opinions that I cannot direct right at you as I have no idea who you are! Just my take of the situation based on the tone of most of your posts when it comes to competitive archers. Since you responded to most of the comments I made there must be some level of truth as you feel compelled to defend yourself on something that I said was a general comment. I think you miss the point of what I or others are looking to do! I get around and see more than the average archer in this province and I have had dealings with people in most organizations, some are simply run better! I have a job and I do what I do because I can afford it. If people would leave the personal attacks aside "me included" we might get to know each other and a find common ground that brings everyone together to make this sport great in what ever form you choose. 

The old guard will always defend what they have built, I don't blame anyone for that, not callin you old BTW, but sometimes the teachers can be taught by others experiences. Sometimes what is written is also lost on translation, such as toppers first post here, Dave and I both had different opinions of his context just based on his choice of words. I am not a novelist and sometimes things just get lost in translation, but make no mistake I love this as much as anyone and I will always deal with personal attacks with both barrels. Obviously we rub each other the wrong way so I will leave it alone now and have a nice life as you suggested as your experiences are obviously different than mine.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

[QUOTE
The old guard will always defend what they have built, I don't blame anyone for that, not callin you old BTW, but sometimes the teachers can be taught by others experiences. Sometimes what is written is also lost on translation, such as toppers first post here, Dave and I both had different opinions of his context just based on his choice of words. I am not a novelist and sometimes things just get lost in translation[/QUOTE]


Definately true. Haha they never taught us how to communicate on the Internet out here in the backwoods brother lol.


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

there are lots of good points being raised here and I give kudos to anyone spending the time investing in our sport, including coaching, volunteering etc but most of you have strayed away from what topper initiated.

for the past few years I have shot money class at every venue it has been offered. I generally have shot with pins because that's what I do.
But why criticize a guys who wants to shoot the equipment class he is in? I don't want to speak for blake but the guy shoots pins and has always shot pins so why should he not shoot in a pin division?

that said, I think blake and a few other guys are more open to the idea of shooting a cash class but Only if there is a decent number of guys in that class. And I think that was Blake's POINT. I don't really want to shoot Open in the OAA if its only me and one other guy because if I win a class of 2 I miss out on actually Competing.

so, for the folks running future events. Add a cash class....if there are less than say 5 guys the money gets returned and they go back to their respective equipment classes.
....this is exactly what Randy did at Durham last weekend where we had 7 guys (I think) and it worked out perfect.

problem solved


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

So why not have a cash class in the Trad classes then? Recurve or longbow..off the shelf or elevated rest..no stabs or sights and finger release. Just saying there are a lot of top shooters there as well. Ted has a cash class at his P&P shoot for the trad guys.

And how do you go about keeping these cash classes alive. It is all fine that the OAA will kick in $100 to the pot, but I would suspect that is only at an OAA event...Triple Crown, Provincials etc. What about all the other club shoots? There are a lot more of them that could be the catalyst to getting this going for you guys if the interest was there to support it.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Bow bandit said:


> Like I said Genisis, mostly general opinions that I cannot direct right at you as I have no idea who you are! Just my take of the situation based on the tone of most of your posts when it comes to competitive archers. Since you responded to most of the comments I made there must be some level of truth as you feel compelled to defend yourself on something that I said was a general comment. I think you miss the point of what I or others are looking to do! I get around and see more than the average archer in this province and I have had dealings with people in most organizations, some are simply run better! I have a job and I do what I do because I can afford it. If people would leave the personal attacks aside "me included" we might get to know each other and a find common ground that brings everyone together to make this sport great in what ever form you choose.
> 
> The old guard will always defend what they have built, I don't blame anyone for that, not callin you old BTW, but sometimes the teachers can be taught by others experiences. Sometimes what is written is also lost on translation, such as toppers first post here, Dave and I both had different opinions of his context just based on his choice of words. I am not a novelist and sometimes things just get lost in translation, but make no mistake I love this as much as anyone and I will always deal with personal attacks with both barrels. Obviously we rub each other the wrong way so I will leave it alone now and have a nice life as you suggested as your experiences are obviously different than mine.


BB, I agree lets take the personal stuff out. But like anyone when you get poked with a stick we feel the need to respond. There is common ground here but I like you remember the old days where 3D ruled. We used to get 125 archers to a shoot, give out trophies and hell those were the days to get money classes going. Now reality is we get between 30 to 35 3D while we get all told over 60+ to the paper open nights we do. Mind you we put out 3D targets for folks to shoot also. So how do I get your class of shooter here to start. I would love to offer a money class but I have to decided do I buy targets or line pockets..............if I offer the money and everyone goes to the states I am out the cash and looking at having to run with less than viable targets. My point is we need your class to take the first step and then we can build on it. My hope is we are on our way next year to achieve that goal. Tops first post was a slap to most of the folks I know that are out there to enjoy the sport and to get the feel of what real competition is like. He may not have thought it came off that way but it did. The you and a few others jump on the money issue and the just show bravo but make it worth my time. To anyone looking in why would I want to compete in Ontario, sounded like a bunch of ego's doing battle. Again maybe it was not intended but sure did to me.

Please don't take this wrong but in two years of bringing in a lot of new archers into the sport not one has said "I want to be as good as Bow Bandit". So again where do I put my funds when I am rebuilding with hope the sport I love most. It would be nice to see some of the top archers in our area come out to the open nights to give that inspiration to young archers with their talent and to help with issues. On the weekend we had a top archer for years at our shoot and I personally went on his facebook to thank him because people came back and asked lots of questions because they saw his level of shooting. Most of those folks were new archers on recurves.............makes you wonder how many are online now looking at compounds and where the next 3D is.

Yep you and I have different takes on a few things but the solid thing is we want to make the sport better for all. Takes a leap of faith to get results. You say you have some ideas to help the clubs, my hope is those ideas trickle down to those of us in this area so we can see if they work. But if the past is any reflection we will have to stay the course we are on now because we are moving forward.

Take Care


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Cash class is run what you brung class! Lets say the club puts up 100 dollars and then adds ten dollars from every entry fee in that class to the pot, the 100 bucks is covered with 3 and a bit archers at say 30 dollars in that class. This moves the very competitive archers out of all the other divisions so the up and comers can get a piece of the pie in Thier respective class. This should help bring out more new archers or maybe some old ones that did not have as much time to practice as others. 

No reason why this could not work with a trad class as well if there was the extra entry fee and the numbers to support it. This should give more people a piece of the Pie with archers of the same caliber. 

Durham threw one together last week with a pretty good response for something that was not advertised.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Genesis, people generally shoot what is put in their hand first or the form of archery that is most common in their area, I have never really been to many shoots west of Kitchener, why I don't know but there must not have been any reason or anything promoted well enough for me to go. I drive all over the province but never that way. Like I said before we don't know each other and why would we if we only cross paths here. I am not very good at archery so I would not expect some random beginner with a recurve to know me or anyone else for that matter. But would it not be nice to have an organization that could develop the next Levi Morgan, he might even be shooting at your club right now! But you will probably never know if he is never challenged to shoot at that level or maybe does not have financial assistance to gain that experience.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Bow bandit said:


> Cash class is run what you brung class! Lets say the club puts up 100 dollars and then adds ten dollars from every entry fee in that class to the pot, the 100 bucks is covered with 3 and a bit archers at say 30 dollars in that class. This moves the very competitive archers out of all the other divisions so the up and comers can get a piece of the pie in Thier respective class. This should help bring out more new archers or maybe some old ones that did not have as much time to practice as others.
> 
> No reason why this could not work with a trad class as well if there was the extra entry fee and the numbers to support it. This should give more people a piece of the Pie with archers of the same caliber.
> 
> Durham threw one together last week with a pretty good response for something that was not advertised.


This is progress, a fantastic idea. Personally i would like to see an end of the day shoot down at bigger tournys, the way the asa runs.(not saying we need to BE the ASA, but they make for a good model IMO) This brings up the argument of shoot structure so everyones done on time during the day so its not a laborious task, but we can chew that food when we have to. 
Genesis, i think younger kids and beginners alike WOULD say i want to shoot like "Bow Bandit" (or insert shooter of the days name here lol) if they were to see them in such a way like a shoot down. Hell i still say to myself, when i watch guys like Levi Chance and McCarthy duke it out, that "I want to shoot like those guys". This is exciting, it draws people in, shooter and non current shooters alike. If you want to promote a fight card you make the main event a championship fight, you market the high profile guys, people WILL watch the under card. This is just the model i use but it makes sense, give me something (and SOMEONE) to be a fan of and aspire to be like.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

hey rockin johnny come to pand p we guarantee $300 for the trad class plus a 140 dollar trophy in crystal for the trad class


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I know I'm going to take a beating for this, but from a compound perspective, the new shooters at our club find the sheer number of classes way too daunting. I have to say I agree. I can't see the need for more than 3 classes, Barebow compound, limited and unlimited, that's what we had in the UK, it was simple, worked fine and everyone new where they belonged. Going to shoots like Halton where Josh tries to lay on all the classes it just gets daft. 2 in this class, 3 in that class etc. bigger classes make better competition.
Being able to shoot with your buddies every week doesn't help either. Mix people up, keeps scores honest and enables new shooters to get the chance to shoot and learn from us experienced guys.


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

I am working on it Ted. But then I will have to go against Waneman :teeth:


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

Bigjono said:


> I know I'm going to take a beating for this, but from a compound perspective, the new shooters at our club find the sheer number of classes way too daunting. I have to say I agree. I can't see the need for more than 3 classes, Barebow compound, limited and unlimited, that's what we had in the UK, it was simple, worked fine and everyone new where they belonged. Going to shoots like Halton where Josh tries to lay on all the classes it just gets daft. 2 in this class, 3 in that class etc. bigger classes make better competition.
> Being able to shoot with your buddies every week doesn't help either. Mix people up, keeps scores honest and enables new shooters to get the chance to shoot and learn from us experienced guys.


I agree 100% Jono. Way to many classes. Which in the end causes way to much confusion and a lack of competitive classes


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

rockin_johny said:


> I am working on it Ted. But then I will have to go against Waneman :teeth:


too funny LOL there are bigger fish than me to worry about, like mr Florent, he has dominated the trad class for longer than I have been alive. aaahh don't tell him I said that.


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

regarding classes. Yes we should eliminate a few. So which ones? because the class that gets scrapped is the class that will cry loudest about it.
IMO if there isn't 6 in a class than those guys move up.

when I run my first shoot I want to see 150 archers, I will run a cash class and everyone else shoots from the 30 max, 40 max or 50 max stakes and they all shoot for Fun because I wont have trophies (maybe pins or something?).
I will build the most challenging course and everyone will have a blast. 
...and all that will happen as soon as I am done competing...when ever that is.

as for genesis...you have a pile of questions and if you truly want answers I suggest you reach out to those with Experience. It is a big archery world and it gets bigger the further South you drive from Toronto. Once you experience it you gain something that most on this thread don't have...Perspective. IMO that's sort of where Topper was coming from In the beginning???

now for my 2 bits, the biggest problem with 3D here in Ontario is that running a shoot is both cost and labor intensive. It isn't about classes or kids or who shoots what. If we want to BUILD 3D than people need to Gamble and put together quality events. If you can get the man power and the property and the targets (and the stand-out example here is Ted) then you have the opportunity to run a shoot that folks Want to attend. Then you take the constructive criticism and make the event better for next time.
Right?
and then you multiply that and you have real growth.

So those of us who are truly dedicated to making 3d work here in Ontario have to get together in a room and start working this stuff out instead of doing what most of us are doing which fighting amongst ourselves.


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

XTRMN8R said:


> as for genesis...you have a pile of questions and if you truly want answers I suggest you reach out to those with Experience. It is a big archery world and it gets bigger the further South you drive from Toronto. Once you experience it you gain something that most on this thread don't have...Perspective. IMO that's sort of where Topper was coming from In the beginning???


What?


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

XTRMN8R said:


> as for genesis...you have a pile of questions and if you truly want answers I suggest you reach out to those with Experience. It is a big archery world and it gets bigger the further South you drive from Toronto. Once you experience it you gain something that most on this thread don't have...Perspective. IMO that's sort of where Topper was coming from In the beginning???


What? Please explain?


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

you people still talking about......what again?
about last year, I guess, I offered to "a club" I will collect more than double hundred people for that shot, will attract people from far away
put my offer (my money) on table to be advertised ahead of time with a return from entrance fees
Mr.President came to me saying ".....nonono that would be the clubs money than...."
well, what I wanted to say is...
we, you, people shall make a money pot, step by step, months to years and build up a budget, and you will see our southern brothers will start coming to your shot....
so, here is my first $50 contribution to our game
so can call it ...gambling? nah....its just a game


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Did you know that just a short few years ago getting over $300 for a 5th place finish was not uncommon, that getting over $1200 for a first place was finish routinely done, That the Open class got over 40+ shooters and paying $40 over the registration not the $20 they do today, so what happened its easy the guy that did all the leg work to prop up the base money stopped doing it and since nobody stepped up to the plate to take it on we are now left with 1-3 entries. When I proposed the Open class I did it for 2 main reasons 1 to put some hype on the usual high score winner along with some cash and 2 to hopefully get the top shooters out of the Unlimited class, the open class was and still is a shoot what you bring class. Its main down fall is no different than any other class once a pecking order was established and the same guys won a few times the lower scoring guys said why should I give my money to so and so, that still happens today. If they could get a 150-200$ payout for a 5th place maybe they would come back but some one needs to step up and do it, this is no different than any other argument that happens on AT about archery or the OAA or some class etc, it needs people to step up and do the tangible work, it really is that easy


Sean


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Rockin johny i think the point he was making is that when is started this thread i have something a few guys on this thread do not, and thats perspective to what competitive archery CAN be but currently isnt up here because i have travelled and put miles under my belt, generally south, to shoot with the big guys at big shoots and extremely well run and well structured events. I think he was suggesting genesis converse with some guys that have similar experience to gain a knowledge of actually why we set a goal for a dream higher than what currently exists.
it sounds like a catch 22, we need guys to do the leg work definately but for that to work we need archers to come to the plate and shoot for what those guys have worked for. in turn the guys who have done the leg work will be happy their hard work pays off and continue, archers should then continue in suit. A big round about, but it has to start somewhere. I just see that beginning with the shooters from my POV. This thread wasnt made to solve all the problems of the world but more so just to put the ball in motion and at the very least get guys thinking about what can and should be done and why it should be. In order to find gold, one must first dig up the ground.


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

Topper1018 said:


> Rockin johny i think the point he was making is that when is started this thread i have something a few guys on this thread do not, and thats perspective to what competitive archery CAN be but currently isnt up here because i have travelled and put miles under my belt, generally south, to shoot with the big guys at big shoots and extremely well run and well structured events. I think he was suggesting genesis converse with some guys that have similar experience to gain a knowledge of actually why we set a goal for a dream higher than what currently exists.
> it sounds like a catch 22, we need guys to do the leg work definately but for that to work we need archers to come to the plate and shoot for what those guys have worked for. in turn the guys who have done the leg work will be happy their hard work pays off and continue, archers should then continue in suit. A big round about, but it has to start somewhere. I just see that beginning with the shooters from my POV. This thread wasnt made to solve all the problems of the world but more so just to put the ball in motion and at the very least get guys thinking about what can and should be done and why it should be. In order to find gold, one must first dig up the ground.


I totally understand your original post Topper, and agree with most of what you asked and said. I attend tourneys and I see it. 

What I was asking for an explanation from XTRMN8R for was his comments towards AlphaGenesis. There was no basis for those comments and if he had read back through the thread or knew him at all he would see that there is no thought put into that response as experience and perspective is one thing he does have.

Continue the fight guys. a top notch cash class can only make you all better shooters in the long run. You only get better when challenged.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks Johnny. Support like that is what I have been looking for from the start.


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

> now for my 2 bits, the biggest problem with 3D here in Ontario is that running a shoot is both cost and labor intensive. It isn't about classes or kids or who shoots what. If we want to BUILD 3D than people need to Gamble and put together quality events. If you can get the man power and the property and the targets (and the stand-out example here is Ted) then you have the opportunity to run a shoot that folks Want to attend. Then you take the constructive criticism and make the event better for next time.
> Right?
> and then you multiply that and you have real growth.
> 
> So those of us who are truly dedicated to making 3d work here in Ontario have to get together in a room and start working this stuff out instead of doing what most of us are doing which fighting amongst ourselves.


I agree with this 100%

As for not understanding Competition, Having launched a couple of arrows over 35 years and a few in competition I understand what top was saying about padded scores and the things done to place better before groups are broken up and real scores are shown. My problem was directing it at Ontario archers only and then relating it back to the OAA. Again he may or may not have wanted it to come off that way, but to me it did. My point is if we want competition to build you have to show up. I am not saying you should have before but when we as clubs reach out now, help us by taking that leap of faith. To show we are willing to take the step as a club we would be willing to run a cash class but I have to be sure some top bows will show from Ontario. If it works we will make it a part of every shoot. We have a pot of around 150 right now on a distance target shot that is not being used. On our Aug 25th shoot I will put it up as and open class, Cash Class. BB, would a setup be a minimum of 10 to shoot the class before payout and what should be the charge to enter looking at we want the next pot to be higher and it has to grow from a separate fund built on its own.

I keep hearing about my lack of experience, I have run a few things in other areas of life that were less than a cake walk. There is no secret formula here. Just the numbers to attend to do bigger and better things.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I keep hearing 3d....3d....3d....well, isn't archery shooting arrows?
why don't we/you put up an "open class" from full 3d + full Field + full FITA scoring, there is a whole weekend, so let see the total score who is going to win. 
I believe it will be an eye opener to see how the big names will rank all over the list. 
I have seen also "no names" shooting amazing scores without a single complain whatever they aim being that a foam or a ring, and giving them an opportunity to make some cash .... ? would be interesting to see 
Which clubs in Ontario/GTA have capacities to combine the events? also a willingness to organize? 
or shall that be a private property, no boards no members to chew the story...my money my rules? 
I wish I have some acres down there in the bush so we can play some serious game


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## joshwebb (Feb 23, 2011)

Attila, I'm in!! 
I think York used to run a triathlon / biathlon!! Caledon also has the facilities for that


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Just a quick clarification, I can see how it may have been interpreted that I was pointing fault at the OAA for "cheaters", but what I meant is a good step for them would be to step up and introduce such a rule structure as to eliminate any basis for accusation of cheating. I mean that perhaps there isn't a sole that straight up turns a 8 to a 10 or whatever, but the issue there is there is basis for accusation because the rules allow you to only shoot with friends or whatever the case may be. This doesn't point direct fingers at anyone person or group of people but more addresses the issue as the problem. Hopefully I am being clear what I mean. I think the rule structure is up to the OAA so that's why I brought them into it. As stated before I do think mike works FOR us as best he can.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Umm, Atila that sounds fun but the serious 3d guys will have no trouble shooting good scores at the target stuff as most already do! But they will really separate themselves on the 3D side making it a little lop sided plus we already have this, it called the Grand championship. It might be cool if I club like Elmira ran a 20 target 3D in the morning and 14 field in the afternoon competition.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

We could do a mixed 3D and Field at Hamilton too if there was the interest but most serious Trad and longbow shooters tune their bow to the game they play so arrows are tuned for 25-27yds, arrow flight could suck at 90m


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Mixed 3/D and target will never make everyone happy. There's no way to fairly compare scores from 3D to paper, so no matter how you pro-rate or skew the scores, someone will feel they got ripped.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

Stash said:


> Mixed 3/D and target will never make everyone happy. There's no way to fairly compare scores from 3D to paper, so no matter how you pro-rate or skew the scores, someone will feel they got ripped.



That, unfortunately, has everything to do with human nature and nothing to do with Archery.. There's always going to be the person that whines and moans because they didn't get their way. It's usually the one that didn't perform too.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

my scoring rules for a money class would be:
# 1 - in or out, no touching, kissing, almost braking, the shaft is either in or outside of the line regardless if a paper or foam target
# 2 - independent judge on every target
# 3 - I don't care you shoot barebow, compound or throwing darts
did I miss anything? :set1_thinking:
I guess this would be all 
$ ? somnething nice in four digits
lets see how many would nock on a door ?


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Put down the bottle Attila!


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

Bow bandit said:


> Put down the bottle Attila!


And the stogie. LOL!


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

so tell us more about the Aug 25th shoot. I think I'm open that weekend,
btw. when topper answered on my behalf earlier...he was spot on.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

:violin:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

waneman do I actually have to practise an hour a week and come back out and kick your ass and mr florents like I did 2-3 yrs ago I might even put my glasses on lol lol


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

XTRMN8R said:


> so tell us more about the Aug 25th shoot. I think I'm open that weekend,
> btw. when topper answered on my behalf earlier...he was spot on.


I will second the part about more on the aug. 25 shoot. Id also like to add, genesis your thinking productively towards us now and i like it. More progress. We are getting somewhere, if nothing else. it works when we work together.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

well ted the glasses may definitely help, and yes you did very well 3 years ago when I was new to the sport. however moving forward its important to focus on your time on things you are really good at so keep up the good work with putting on a kick ass tournament, :smile:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

wanemann said:


> well ted the glasses may definitely help, and yes you did very well 3 years ago when I was new to the sport. however moving forward its important to focus on your time on things you are really good at so keep up the good work with putting on a kick ass tournament, :smile:


Perhaps I will have to take my stab off and see if I can keep up with you too then


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Bow bandit said:


> Umm, Atila that sounds fun but the serious 3d guys will have no trouble shooting good scores at the target stuff as most already do! But they will really separate themselves on the 3D side making it a little lop sided plus we already have this, it called the Grand championship. It might be cool if I club like Elmira ran a 20 target 3D in the morning and 14 field in the afternoon competition.


Im on on this one!!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

well waneman you have progressed quite a bit better take home some crystal this weekend and off the shelf ....now remmmeber sunday is peer grouped at least 2 drinks before you leave the hotel room lol lol lol see ya on the weekend


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

Was just on P&P website and they had this handy simple little chart. 
I think this is perfect and a chart like this should be included in the OAA rule book. 
A handy quick reference....









There is a pdf you may download here.
http://pandparchery.ca/docs/OAA Equipment Divisions.pdf


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

I'm pretty sure that chart has been in the OAA tournament guide every year as long as I can remember.
Not sure about this year's edition as I don't have it here...


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

thunderbolt said:


> I'm pretty sure that chart has been in the OAA tournament guide every year as long as I can remember.
> Not sure about this year's edition as I don't have it here...


I need to buy the guide then. I could not find it on the website. 
I think it's something that should be included in the rule book as well.


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

rdneckhillbilly said:


> I need to buy the guide then. I could not find it on the website.
> I think it's something that should be included in the rule book as well.


I will check but I am fairly certain that it is in the rule book too. 
Plus if you were a member of the OAA you would already have yourself a tournament guide


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

rdneckhillbilly said:


> Was just on P&P website and they had this handy simple little chart.
> I think this is perfect and a chart like this should be included in the OAA rule book.
> A handy quick reference....
> 
> ...



If you have a copy of the 2013 OAA Tournament Directory that they mailed out, it'son page 8 and 9. There's another page to this one as well- One lists Target and Field divisions, one lists 3D divisions.


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## Jbooter (Dec 9, 2009)

I just printed the rule book off today and I don't see it. The one on P&P's site is a nice graphic though and it outlines the divisions very well for those that get confused with the equipment rules.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

it been in every tournament directory for nearly 20years now, its a quick reference chart designed by Stan I believe, the details of the chart are listed in the rules book, which it also says


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Hey, not just the quick reference guide - the whole idea of a Tournament Directory, listing shoots and with maps to clubs, and dealer advertising to pay for some of it, was my idea. Before then, nobody knew about shoots unless they heard from someone else, and you had to follow someone who had already been there if it was your first time going to a specific club.

Just one of my innumerable contributions to the good of archery in Ontario and in general.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Guide has it all.... Age and category spec you have to be a member to get guide includes tourny listings and club contacts ..... Much better this year and improving yearly .....


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## cheaplaughs (Mar 27, 2005)

Thanks for everything Stan.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I only planted the seeds...those who followed in my footsteps made them bloom


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Stash just got tired of telling everyone how to get to the ranges..

🙊


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

hey guys was checking my signs for classes and noticed that on page 9 of tourn directory that x bow is not mentioned in the distance section at top of page .... under stakes and colours .I will send mike a pm so hopefully will be corrected ......we know orange pegs 50 yds .....


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## doc2931 (Feb 9, 2010)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> hey guys was checking my signs for classes and noticed that on page 9 of tourn directory that x bow is not mentioned in the distance section at top of page .... under stakes and colours .I will send mike a pm so hopefully will be corrected ......we know orange pegs 50 yds .....


Noted down, will be corrected in next years edition


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Topper1018 said:


> I will second the part about more on the aug. 25 shoot. Id also like to add, genesis your thinking productively towards us now and i like it. More progress. We are getting somewhere, if nothing else. it works when we work together.


Shoot is at our ERCA property, will put more details here asap. Putting in a hardwood floor right now. I want to see archery in Ontario number one on every ones list!


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Love the attitude man we all want the same thing. Looking forward to some more info in your shoot. Just a side note the baby is in the midst of being born as we speak! Wish us luck!


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## GenesisAlpha (Jun 26, 2009)

Just saw hope all are fine!


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