# Does cast vs forged REALLY make a difference with risers?



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

d - 

You are asking a lot of really good questions that wont make one bit of difference in your shooting at this point. 

Regarding the casting v "forged" (machined), well, maybe. If both specimens are "perfect" then the differences are minor, but casting introduces the possibility of inconsistencies in the metal, hence the failure you witnessed. Tolerances are typically better with machined risers, but again, how much of a difference does that make, probably zero at this point. If you stay with it, after a few years, you'll be able to make your own decisions.

BTW - ditto on the limbs. The Axiom Plus limbs shoot as well as the Premium wood/glass and wood/carbon limbs. 

Viper1 out.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> d -
> 
> You are asking a lot of really good questions that wont make one bit of difference in your shooting at this point.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Yes I do realize that at my noob status these differences, if there are any, are probably irrelevant... but I am interested in the science behind it, and separating fact from fiction. I'm a product designer/engineer, heavily involved in DFM (design for manufacture), so this stuff interests me. If an absolutely equivalent product can be manufactured with a cheaper manufacturing process, that's pretty cool.....

So if you assume no manufacturing defects (let's be honest that's incredibly rare), would ANYONE notice a benefit from the Premium? How so?

And to your comment about "machined", both are machined as a secondary operation, nearly identically.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Although not a factor at beginner draw weights, both become rather unpleasant to shoot long before you hit the rated "maximum" limb weight. This is more of a problem barebow vice Olympic.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

grantmac said:


> Although not a factor at beginner draw weights, both become rather unpleasant to shoot long before you hit the rated "maximum" limb weight.


How so? They flex too much?

And is the forged better than the cast in this regard?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

d - 

If we assume no structural defects, then weight and balance become issues, as does fit and finish. 
I'm not a metallurgist, but how cast magnesium or aluminum respond to heat, humidity and pressure v "forged" may factor in at some point. 

As we go higher in price, the differences become more of personal preferences, and when you get to that stage, those preferences may just matter more than the technical differences. 

BTW - actually the earlier cast risers (think Hoyt Gold Medalist) was one of the stiffest risers ever made, due both because of the material and "I" beam construction. Unfortunately, it had a few issues that make it less than optimal by today's standards. 

There's nothing "forged" about the SF Forged riser. It's just made from a billet of aluminum, so machined is probably a better term. 

Viper1 out.


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## wolfsblood (Jul 19, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> There's nothing "forged" about the SF Forged riser. It's just made from a billet of aluminum, so machined is probably a better term.
> .


Just to be clear, this company calls something forged aluminum but it's not actually forged aluminum? Is this a trend, do other archery companies do this as well? Or is it just something SF does? 

SF website: "Single piece forged"
Lancaster: "Computer-aided forged aluminum riser"

http://www.sf-archery.com/index.php/en/risers/premium-riser-detail
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/sf-archery-forged-plus-25-recurve-riser.html


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

wolfs -

To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing "forged" about the SF Forged Plus riser. With Forged meaning "heated and beaten into shape".
While the billet may have been pounded into submission, the riser wasn't. 
It's just CNC'd. 

Viper1 out.


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## wolfsblood (Jul 19, 2016)

I only have an elementary understanding of metal working processes, but we share the same definition of forged.

It's hard for me to imagine forging a riser (or anything super intricate / precise) without additional CNC work after the forging. At least some of the precise surfaces and cut outs. But I really don't know. It's not my field.

Maybe that is were the lines are blurred?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Yes...it does make differences...many.


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## wolfsblood (Jul 19, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> Yes...it does make differences...many.


Could you please expand on what those differences are?


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Well the billet is forged...then machined making for a more consistent product. I will take the product from a forged billet every time. 

The cast is just a cheaper manufacturing process. I have a lot of experience with forged and cast Compound risers and you never see flaws in the forged billet risers...but it happens with the cast riser all the time. I know of one guy that broke 6 cast Oneida risers [my buddy was the rep] 

I think Grant is right...it won't matter at lower weights....and you won't notice a difference....but if it were me....i spend the extra $50 in a heartbeat.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Forging will produce a superior product but whether it will actually perform at a higher level is the question here, and I sincerely doubt it.

If the riser in question is simply machined from a billet of aluminum, that isn't forged. Even if the billet goes through a forging process prior to machining I don't think it's the same thing. You will loose much of the surface grain structure that accounts for the advantage of a forged article. 

The advantages of forging are found in products that are formed into their final shape (or very close to it) through the forging process.

Some of the advantages of forging, where compressive force and sometimes heat (aluminum is usually cold forged) are applied to get the product into the desired physical shape has the main advantage is increased strength due to internal changes in the materials grain structure. A good forging will also require less finish machining and will have a finer surface finish. On the other hand, since the material is harder after forging, final machining is more difficult and some of the work hardening of the surface is removed.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that there are more failures with a cast riser. I'd also think the forged riser will be more attractive and have a finer finish.

I wouldn't worry about the failure rate, it's probably so low as to be insignificant. I like a nice looking piece of gear, so if there is a significant difference there I'd probably spend the extra money. At least in the compound world a cast riser is usually a bit of an ugly duckling compared to it's more expensive cousin, even though it does perform as well when it comes to launching an arrow.


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## teenarcher36 (Dec 17, 2006)

Milling a riser from a forged block will in fact provide a "stronger" riser when compared to a cast aluminum riser that is finished off by the same milling process. The molecules will be "arranged" more uniformly in the forged block as opposed to the cast riser in which the molecules will be more random. Now, to say that someone will be able to tell the difference while shooting each bow I highly doubt it. It would more than likely take some very accurate strain gauges to tell the actual difference.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

It's not just the the riser itself but also the extremely low quality hardware that comes with such and you won't need any special gauges to know the difference the first time a threaded limb bolt hole get stripped out.

I'm all for new archers enjoying economy limbs when they are first starting out but the riser?....is the foundation of their rig where if the intent is a serious run at sticking with it?....why waste money on a cheap riser that could very well sour the initial experience and offers zero growth room going forward?

The SF Forged + is a well liked and highly acclaimed riser for just a few bucks more.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> It's not just the the riser itself but also the extremely low quality hardware that comes with such and you won't need any special gauges to know the difference the first time a threaded limb bolt hole get stripped out.
> 
> I'm all for new archers enjoying economy limbs when they are first starting out but the riser?....is the foundation of their rig where if the intent is a serious run at sticking with it?....why waste money on a cheap riser that could very well sour the initial experience and offers zero growth room going forward?
> 
> The SF Forged + is a well liked and highly acclaimed riser for just a few bucks more.


I'm pretty sure that all of the hardware is the same between the Axiom Plus and Premium Plus, and I haven't read of any issues with either. Do you know of a specific example? 

The SF Forged is higher end still, another $100 beyond the Premium.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've seen the video (but can't find it now) of the forging process, it starts with an extruded billet of 6061 aluminum. It's a single hit using a very large drop hammer and a set of dies. It forms the basic shape of the riser in one step, then it's transfered to the CNC and finished.
The cast riser is molded using liquified aluminum forced into a mold under vacuum, then finished with a CNC process.

Higher priced risers are machined directly out of the bullet which tends to create a bit straighter riser than either of the other processes. However my Forged+ was as straight as I could measure.

It's worth keeping an eye on the FITA classifieds and buying used.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> why waste money on a cheap riser that could very well sour the initial experience and offers zero growth room going forward?


I've read many reviews of both of these risers and have yet to find evidence of a "soured experience". Please find me examples that support what you're saying.

Assuming the riser and hardware aren't defective (again, when has this happened?), how does it offer zero growth room? I'm starting at 24# and it can certainly handle more than that.

Sorry to be pushing back, and I mean no disrespect, but without any real evidence of what you're claiming it just sounds like high-end-gear snobbery. By all other accounts I should be very happy with either of these risers for some time. Please show me examples and prove me wrong. I'm more than happy to change my tune if provided with evidence. Heck I might even return the Axiom riser for a different one if you can really convince me that I've made the wrong choice. 

Thanks


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## Daniel L (Nov 23, 2013)

It comes down to budget and having confidence in your gear. I note that the riser you purchased (SF Axiom+ Light) says it's suitable for up to 36#. It covers the manufacturer's liability.
But frankly 36# for target work in the beginning is more than ample.

If you have the $$ to spend, sure return it and upgrade to SF Forged+ (the more expensive upgrade). Will you shoot it any better? .... unlikely. But you might feel better about owning it  

What you want right now to find a bow you like that you can get your form settled into. Don't get too hung up on the gear... I know we all like our shiny toys. Ask other archers if you can shoot their bow. Most folks are ok with it. This is the beginning of your journey of finding out what you like.

So at a technical level, the answer is correct - forged is more expensive process and produces a stronger riser (as you can shoot 40#+ without voiding a manufacturer warranty)

But will it matter?

Personally if I had the money and was pretty committed, I'd go with the SF Forged+. As mentioned, well regarded and will see you through quite a while before you consider upgrading.
If you wanted to keep to a tighter budget and test the waters, the SF Axiom+ Light is a solid value buy. Use it for a couple of years and sell it for $100 if you look after it.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

d - 

A little bit of blunt reality - don't over think it. 
For a new shooter, as long as a bow is light enough in draw weight to allow adequate practice, long enough to be drawn smoothly, reasonably comfortable in the hand and doesn't structurally change during a shooting session, your initial requirements should have been meet.

The risers mentioned satisfy those requirements and allow for a small amount of experimentation, more than enough to last you a few years. Beyond that, it becomes a matter of what you want or think you want. After a few years of shooting however, what you want or think you want should be more valid - for you. 

In that regard most of this thread has been a waste if bandwidth. 

If you're longing for a first bow that will last you forever, you're either not going to be shooting very long or taking it too seriously. 

Shoot what you have. If you really get into it, you'll start saying "I wish the riser (or limbs or anything else) could do this" or "wasn't doing that". Then you can upgrade your choices. And if you're serious about target shooting, the FITA forum will get you better answers.

And btw, some of your assessments are spot on.

Viper1 out.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

dnelsen said:


> I've read many reviews of both of these risers and have yet to find evidence of a "soured experience". Please find me examples that support what you're saying.
> 
> Assuming the riser and hardware aren't defective (again, when has this happened?), how does it offer zero growth room? I'm starting at 24# and it can certainly handle more than that.
> 
> ...


I purchased a 21" Axiom riser when they first came out...the length and basic geometry appealed too me and?...for $139?....such a deal...it was during a time back when I figured...

*"Why spend a bunch of dough on a riser when all they do is hold the limbs?"*

where I also thought it slick of me that I had a set of $650 Sky TR7 Double CF/Boo core custom ordered limbs laying around doing nothing and figured for less than $800 I'd have a killer rig...shown here...










I also conducted my little forum mini-review of it where I expressed some concerns because the limb bolts felt like they were made by mattel toys...very light in the hand...pretty much pot metal casting flashed with chrome plating...and then they stuck SS dovetail expansion/locking screws in them....










which is when I had a couple friends PM me right away telling me to be real careful and make certain that anytime I make a limb bolt adjustment?...that I make dang sure those dovetail locking screws are real loose or?...even the cheap pot metal limb bolts would cut a new set of threads in my riser effectively stripping the original threads out.

Now I'm not going to play Sherlock Holmes here for you and try to search the net for hard evidence of this but I do have this pic here where I was measuring limb pad angles and the pic shows some home-made cup and saucer type limb bolts a friend sent me to replace the original stock ones...you just can see them here...with the socket head sticking up...










And my dismay with the riser didn't end there..it had this rather light, cheap feel too it that seemed to amplify after shot vibes rather than absorb and dispense with them.

And don't get me wrong here....I definitely got what I paid for and was quite amazed anyone could market such a product at such a low price point...especially when one takes into account they come with their own flipper rest and cheapy plunger....I think any new archer would be thrilled with one...for about a month or two...or?...until they shot any other riser priced at $50 more.

But hey...it's your money...your adventure...I was just offering up my opinion and suggestion...BTW?...welcome too the passion.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> I purchased a 21" Axiom riser when they first came out...the length and basic geometry appealed too me and?...for $139?....such a deal...it was during a time back when I figured...
> 
> *"Why spend a bunch of dough on a riser when all they do is hold the limbs?"*
> 
> ...


Thanks Jinkster! I really appreciate all of the input


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

dnelsen said:


> Thanks Jinkster! I really appreciate all of the input


You're very welcome.

Economy priced cast risers are in this world for a reason...My Axiom riser got sold too a friend who asked to buy it for his son who was young and just starting out...and I have other elderly friends who are on fixed incomes that get by with such just fine by making do...my point here?...I truly feel if you have the financial capability to drop and extra $50-$100 and upgrade just a touch into something forged & machined?...it will make for a much more pleasant initial experience for you.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Thats good info Jinks....


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## wolfsblood (Jul 19, 2016)

Thanks Jinkster! I really appreciate the detail. 

I'm a beginner... I know, I know, I can't outshoot a cheap riser. I get it. I really do. But I absolutely despise crappy hardware on anything. Every time I buy a cheap tool, I end up regretting it. So if low budget hardware results in a big compromise with setup, tuning, and longevity, I don't want to deal with those frustrations. I'd rather spend a bit more for something that works better. Life is too short for crappy tools.

My first bow as an adult, it's one of the popular recurve bows that you can get for $120-ish. One of the limb bolts had bad threads, so I warrantied it. Replacement riser developed a crack. No big deal, it's a cheap bow, and warranty was good. Not going to bash it. I think I was just unlucky. But it was clear to me this purchase was not likely to deliver long term satisfaction.

I decided to go ILF and picked up a Hoyt riser. I've since discovered it is not perfect, of course nothing is. It isn't exactly what I want as far as size and balance. There are some minor flaws with it that I've worked around. But the key is, it's not a piece of junk. I can work with it. The hardware does not suck. Aside from scuffs on the finish, it should last forever. The threads are clean and the hardware is quality. I absolutely do not regret this purchase. 

Sometimes cheap things are just too cheap.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

wolfs -

You can certainly buy cheap junk and get what you pay for. Unfortunately, I've seen too many $800+ "customs" blow and $1,500+ brand new Oly rigs fail. The crap that's cheap gets a reputation pretty quickly and is either corrected by the manufacturer or falls off the market. 

Most of the bows we (or at least I) recommend have pretty good reputations and are generic enough to work for their intended audience. 
Overthinking is as common as over-bowing with newbies, and one can be as harmful as the other. 

You did well with the Excel riser, and it will let you figure out what (and when) your next up\grade should be.

Viper1 out.


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## Kali4 (Jan 3, 2016)

Forging is a much stronger and refined process than casting; however, most suspension parts on today's vehicles, including High End vehicles, are made of cast aluminum. These parts hold up to some pretty demanding scenarios that a bow riser will never have to be subject to and they hold up very well! That being said, for an additional $50 I would by a forged riser just because I am materialistic and it seems like such a minimal amount.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Kali4 said:


> Forging is a much stronger and refined process than casting; however, most suspension parts on today's vehicles, including High End vehicles, are made of cast aluminum. These parts hold up to some pretty demanding scenarios that a bow riser will never have to be subject to and they hold up very well! That being said, for an additional $50 I would by a forged riser just because I am materialistic and it seems like such a minimal amount.


Dropping an 800 ton hammer on a chunk of warm aluminum is more refined than pouring molten aluminum into a shaped sand mold? Ok, I guess.
If the cast riser folks can tell you it's made out of 356-T6 stuff, you'll most likely never have an issue.

Most performance or highly loaded suspension arms are forged aluminum. Lightly loaded one are cast. K-members are cast and have a ton of cool 3D features to make up for lower alloy strength. There are also HPDC alloys that approach the strength of forged but require hella expensive dies. 

Knowing what I do about cast and forged Al alloys, it's a no brainer for me which to choose.


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## Kali4 (Jan 3, 2016)

Rick! said:


> Dropping an 800 ton hammer on a chunk of warm aluminum is more refined than pouring molten aluminum into a shaped sand mold? Ok, I guess.
> If the cast riser folks can tell you it's made out of 356-T6 stuff, you'll most likely never have an issue.
> 
> Most performance or highly loaded suspension arms are forged aluminum. Lightly loaded one are cast. K-members are cast and have a ton of cool 3D features to make up for lower alloy strength. There are also HPDC alloys that approach the strength of forged but require hella expensive dies.
> ...


You are correct, refined was not the word I was looking for, I was typing quickly trying to get my daughter off to school. Most lower control arms, upper control arms, strut towers and trailing arms and multi link arms are cast aluminum parts. Not sure which parts you are referring to as forged suspension parts?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Kali, et al - 

By being technically accurate, you're making a very common mistake, both with risers and cars. 
The real question is when is something strong enough, and what does making it "stronger" buy you? 
We know what it does for the manufacturer, for the consumer, the jury is still out. 

I won't argue that there are advantages to a forged riser, I will argue that very few people will be able to exploit the difference. 

Viper1 out.


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## Kali4 (Jan 3, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> Kali, et al -
> 
> By being technically accurate, you're making a very common mistake, both with risers and cars.
> The real question is when is something strong enough, and what does making it "stronger" buy you?
> ...


I agree with you and that was the point I was trying to make, obviously I failed. Forging is a stronger process but a cast riser will be plenty strong and resilient enough for what the average archer will put it through. I don't believe there will be any difference in performance or longevity between the two. 

Correct me if I am wrong but magnesium risers used in the past were all cast, weren't they? Its what makes you feel better, do you buy the new truck with Steel wheels and wheel covers or do you spend a little extra for a truck with chrome alloy wheels? The will both perform the same but some people like knowing they have alloy wheels beneath them. 

If I were spending the money on a riser and the difference were only $50.00 I would just do it for the unsubstantiated piece of mind it gave me, I can afford to do this juncture in my life. If I were on a budget I would buy the cast knowing that it would perform just as well as the forged riser.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

kali -

Apologies for missing your point, my bad. That's exactly it. As long as the "tool" was designed around the material's strength and weaknesses, the rest is marketing, and we see a lot of that these days, and not only in archery. The cool thing about our sport is that you really can't buy points. 

The thing that does matter, is that as we improve, OUR personal preferences come into play, both physical and psychological. Manufactures can satisfy those needs or play on them. 

Viper1 out.


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## norton850 (Feb 4, 2010)

forged aluminum or steel is always the best way to go . In casting the metal is just metal and pour or injected into the mold and allowed to cool and then lightly cleaned up and edges milled or some holes drilled and tapped.

Lets clear a few things up , you can have a cast billet or chunk of metal that is melted poured in a square block or molded shaped and then machined , the metal tends to be pourous and not as strong as metal that is heated and compressed.

Now with a forged piece of square metal would be a cast metal block that has been heated and sent thru metal presses that compresses the metal and makes it structually stronger than the original raw cast block. If you take a block of billet forged metal and machine it , it will be stronger than cast and equal to a forged metal shaped object.

Now if you take a block of cast metal (non compressed under heat and pressure) and machine that item into a desired shape it will be just as weak as a cast molded item and definitely weaker than the billet or forged identical part.

The key thing to remember when they say forged metal , is the item forged or pressed into the desired shape and what is the quality of the metal.

If they say the item is machined from a forged billet that also very strong metal product.

A lot of companies use the word "billet metal" in the product and you can create billet metal at home by melting lead and pouring it into a coffee cup let it cool and you have technically a billet of lead. Now you make lead fishing sinkers out of it and the end product you have are lead sinkers made from a billet of lead. So now you could technically market and sell them as "Billet Sinkers" or even bullets and you have " Billet Bullets".

This is the reason as a rull always by the forged metal item or cast metal, there are good articles on cast VS forged metal on firearms specially colt 1911 and ar15's and anyone buying any of the 2 guns with a brain would only buy the forged product.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

for purposes of practical application, forged, whether forged to to billet then machined, or forged to near finished then machined, will yield a stronger more durable product. 

For our purposes here, with the forces we deal with, is there a practical, applicable difference between forged and cast?

Probably not. 

UNLESS the casting contains an internally hidden void or crack, or grain discontinuity that will become a crack.

If we're going to use the automotive industry as a source to draw examples from, then consider this. I can now, 25 years later, no longer keep track of how many different auto manufacturers have had to issue Service Bulletins and recalls for cracks, voids, and porosity issues in their cast aluminum engine blocks and transmission housings.

Yes, ALL OF THEM, American, Japanese, European, have had to deal with these issues, and STILL do, to this very day.

Now of course the part I find most amusing is that often the "fix" entails nothing more than taking the car apart far enough to gain access to problem area, cleaning it up, slather it with JB Weld, and then sending it on its way, hoping that the car makes it to end of warranty before it becomes necessary to replace the engine.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

The real question is what is good enough and what is overkill......I would venture a guess that Brady could whip any of us with the cheapest little cast ILF rig in the Lancaster's catalog. 

FWIW, I shoot a 30 year old cast magnesium riser that began life as a compound bow.


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## dunninla (Oct 17, 2018)

I am resurrecting this because it is a subject still relevant to those taking up target archery. I will try to summarize the points above that are indeed relevant to newer archers and their experience actually using a riser--

As far as I can tell, the heart of the issue isn't about cast vs. forged, but about about quality of design, machining and finishing in the manufacturing of either kind of billet.


- Grip: I've heard so many say the most important aspect of a bow is angle and shape of grip. 
- Balance & weight: of the overall design. again nothing to do with cast vs. forged billets.
- Threadings: For stabilizer and whatever else you screw in, I have read some cast risers have misaligned treads -- not b/c they're cast, but because they're built to a lower price point with fewer quality control checks. For example somebody wrote the Decut riser has sight attachment holes that are oddly angled.
- Rest hole: one or two holes above the shelf? Two allows for a screw in rest.
- Quality of limb attachment bolts, and limb adjustment design: again, nothing to do with cast vs. forged billets, but I have read the lower cost risers have had issues with adjustment bolt/screw quality and design.
- Vibrational shock while shooting: not sure if cast vs. forged billets matter here 

To me, after reading all this, if you're shooting target under 36# for a number of years, and you don't hunt, then you care about manufacturing quality, not about how the riser's raw billet was formed. So the question isn't cast vs. forged, but learning about real users' experience actually setting up and shooting with inexpensive cast risers to find which ones are designed, machined and finished *well enough* to allow for good shooting for several years.

Lastly, does a new archer need to spend $165 for a beginning ILF Riser/limbs/string (e.g. Junxing F165) or $155 (Decut Basha + Bamboo limbs from Alternativess.com) , or should that be a second step after spending about $85 on a beginner setup for the first six months or so (e.g. Junxing F155).


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## DaveHawk (Jul 16, 2009)

Coming from a diecasting background, a bow's riser is not an ideal candidate for the diecasting process. Diecasting is best suited to thin-wall castings and especially not good for thick castings like the handle portion of the riser. There is shrinkage and porosity that is found in these areas, thus making them prone to catastrophic failure. Remember the old PSE cast risers? (Pieces Scattered Everywhere) I was standing next to a guy whose PSE broke clean in two at full draw. We looked at the broken section (just above his grip) and you could see the voids that were there from this manufacturing process defect. These defects always migrate to the center of the largest mass, thus not visible from the outside.


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