# Draw Elbow?



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Not really catching what you're saying about knuckle in the pocket behind the ear lobe.... My index and middle finger hand knuckles ride on the corner of my jaw and my finger lay along the jaw line. So sort of bone to bone and repeatable...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that knuckle in the pocket behind the earlobe, is a pretty far back and high anchor point.
what is happening, is that with the anchor that far back, it also misaligns your elbow left and right in the vertical plane, causing the left of center misses.
you probably have to "push" some shots off, up front, as well. assuming you're right handed, that results in left misses, too.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Have you asked your coach what he/she thinks may be going on? If the point of your draw elbow is too high (way above the plane of the arrow), it causes you to lose the effective use of your back muscles and added tension develops in the draw arm as a result as you load up the deltoid and traps instead of the back muscles (a draw elbow that is too low can also cause these same issues). This can eventually lead to injury of the shoulder.

So, if your elbow swings a little right as it is raised and you do not have the strong support of your back muscles in play, your arrow will go a little left--the arrow generally follows the path that is in line with the draw elbow.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Sasquech said:


> Shot a small tournament and one of the line judges took some video and showed me my dead centers elbow was perfectly in line with the arrow up and down. He could call my arrows and for 3 ends with another line judge. Elbow down 2 inches shot goes left 1/2 ,3/4 inch from dead center. How do I fix this I can't feel the difference the anchor is not varying knuckle in the pocket behind the ear lobe. I will post videos of the two forms maybe one of you can see the difference. All advice welcome. It feels like I m finally on the track of the little things that are robbing 5 or 6 pts. A round if I can fix two I will be there.


You say your draw elbow is even with your arrow line? I will go out a on limb and say your draw is too long. I would find it much easier to get the proper rhomboid tension and follow through with draw elbow at least slightly above the arrow line. 

If your elbow is down below the arrow line it will be the natural tendency to pull the hand away from the face and send the arrow left. 

Of course there could be other factors involved.

This would be a great question for the Coaches Corner - as much of the discussion in this forum is "theory".


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

As an advocate of whatever works for you, I do have to agree with the others on this one. Too long on the draw length, or you aren't keeping your bow arm straight. If you shoot with it bent slightly, you could be letting it back too far. My opinion is that you shouldn't be able to rotate your release arm past 90 deg at anchor.

I've also found in the past, that a high anchor will generate more left/right misses. I had to move my anchor below my jaw and learn to keep my head straight and down, nose to string. That set up has worked very well for me. The recent addition of a kisser cleaned up some very small vertical issues as well.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> As an advocate of whatever works for you, I do have to agree with the others on this one. Too long on the draw length, or you aren't keeping your bow arm straight. If you shoot with it bent slightly, you could be letting it back too far. My opinion is that you shouldn't be able to rotate your release arm past 90 deg at anchor.
> 
> I've also found in the past, that a high anchor will generate more left/right misses. I had to move my anchor below my jaw and learn to keep my head straight and down, nose to string. That set up has worked very well for me. The recent addition of a kisser cleaned up some very small vertical issues as well.


What do you use for a kisser? I've never found a really good solution for this.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't shoot anywhere near ya'lls level, but I'm very very experienced with random lefts (and rights) lol - in my case, it was too firm of an anchor. I really discovered this when shooting oly recurve, and then rediscovered it coming back to compound. I found that pressing my hand onto the jaw with even a light force could disguise a misalignment on the back end - the elbow wasn't in a repeatable place and could be ever so slightly around a little more each time. That usually makes me go sporadically left. If the arm rotates back on the release, rather than popping straight back, that's how I know I've done that.

Now I barely have an "anchor" - the knuckles eeever so slightly touch my jawbone - only just enough for me to confirm I'm at anchor and that's all. The entire thing is suspended between the pocket on the front end and the draw elbow. If Im too far around there's too much pressure on the face, not far enough and the knuckles don't touch.

Now my problems are just everything else lol, but that really has helped me with random lefts....

LS


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> What do you use for a kisser? I've never found a really good solution for this.


Just a tru glow one from Lancaster. Easy on easy off.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Something else to add into the mix is checking your wrist alignment. You could be putting a different or slight bend in the wrist causing the release arm elbow to be higher or lower.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me you are entering into that I know what I need to do but I don't have the thousands of shots to notice when things aren't right category, I see this with decent shooters all the time usually in their grip or their foot placement. Every shot looks slightly different and even though they shoot ok there are these flyers and they have no idea why they are happening, well I totally understand why it is happening because they aren't using the same form from shot to shot.

To me the changes in your rear elbow are probably from:

1. sometimes you extend your front arm out pushing on the bow which changes how your rear elbow sets up.

2. lack of a consistant anchor, I would put a eliminator button on the string as a nose kisser.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

EPLC said:


> What do you use for a kisser? I've never found a really good solution for this.


I use a Speed button or a clove hitch. The clove hitch for me works best.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I was just going to ask about kissers, this is very timely.

I've heard (Oly) of people using a thin strip of masking tape which is then soaked in CA but I always worry about what the CA is doing to the string fibers.

-Grant


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

PSE Archer said:


> I use a Speed button or a clove hitch. The clove hitch for me works best.
> 
> View attachment 2131710


That is what I plpan to go to. I tried the other one first to see if I liked using one. It was cheap and quick to put on.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Since we've gone off on kissers, may I propose another question?

How do you deal with change in anchor at various distances? I assume set it like your peep for a mid distance but any other input would be great.

-Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

PSE Archer said:


> I use a Speed button or a clove hitch. The clove hitch for me works best.
> 
> View attachment 2131710


What is a clove hitch? Never mind found it...


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Guess I have more work to do bad angle but shows the anchor


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

People are different. Styles are different. Picture is for reference only.

Just note his anchor and draw elbow posistion. The string is in front of his face. Not on the side. Your slighlty bent arm could be debatable by some...but one of my students won 2 national indoor championships with a slighlty bent arm.


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## Bowdant (Nov 9, 2011)

PSE Archer said:


> I use a Speed button or a clove hitch. The clove hitch for me works best.
> 
> View attachment 2131710


I plan on trying this out when I get new threads. Anyone know what kind of peep that is?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Bowdant said:


> I plan on trying this out when I get new threads. Anyone know what kind of peep that is?


Looks like a Jim Fletcher hooded peep.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Peep looks like the old papeep


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

unclejane said:


> I don't shoot anywhere near ya'lls level, but I'm very very experienced with random lefts (and rights) lol - in my case, it was too firm of an anchor. I really discovered this when shooting oly recurve, and then rediscovered it coming back to compound. I found that pressing my hand onto the jaw with even a light force could disguise a misalignment on the back end - the elbow wasn't in a repeatable place and could be ever so slightly around a little more each time. That usually makes me go sporadically left. If the arm rotates back on the release, rather than popping straight back, that's how I know I've done that.
> 
> Now I barely have an "anchor" - the knuckles eeever so slightly touch my jawbone - only just enough for me to confirm I'm at anchor and that's all. The entire thing is suspended between the pocket on the front end and the draw elbow. If Im too far around there's too much pressure on the face, not far enough and the knuckles don't touch.
> 
> ...


I just discovered the same thing last night while shooting...If my anchor was to tight against my jaw bone my arrows were going left. It must have been causing an alignment issue on the back side.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Could very well be, redman. Is the Papeep still in production?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, "Fletcher"... that's what it looks like to me, also. the guy in that picture has been shooting for long time....he's probably got a shoe box full of them !.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

TDS said:


> I just discovered the same thing last night while shooting...If my anchor was to tight against my jaw bone my arrows were going left. It must have been causing an alignment issue on the back side.


I also had the same problem when I shot recurve; I would really dig into my face with the string for no apparent reason (probably poor alignment in the arm). I never got over it on recurve, tho. Then I saw one of GRIV's thing-a-week's where he was talking about it which reminded me of that. Now I just baaarely touch the string to the side of the face and that seems to help a bunch with lefts and rights for me.

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sometimes a high anchor will get you into that left right miss trouble, because with a high anchor, you have to somewhat tilt your head to get peep,-string,- sight alignment. when you have to do that, your eyes are now not level, and it skews the superposed view of the target, through the peep and sight, on the target picture your non-dominant eye sees.
that's wht we see most good archers with a lower anchor and their head held nice and erect and why the standard has come to be known as "string at corner of mouth and in contact with tip of nose. that sets the eyes essentially level and straight forward, looking directly at the target.
for most people, this condition is best achieved with the typical, "valley between first and second knuckle, on the crest of the jaw bone" anchor.
the biggest problem with this standard anchor, is that as the bows have become shorter, their high string angles have moved the peep, far enough away from the face, that focus through the peep, is sometimes difficult......hence the popularity of relatively large peep orifices, with these short bows.
the typically popular remedy, is to move the anchor back and up, ie,.... high anchor point. this actually moves the anatomical alignment of draw arm and arrow askew and causes problems in other areas, such as making it difficult to attain good tension across the top of the shoulders to facilitate decent "back tension dynamics". hence the common complaint that "Back tension doesn't seem to work for me". and the difficulty associated with getting decent rotation, out of using rhomboid tension to develop hinge rotation.
call me a writer instead of a shooter, all you want, boys.....what i'm posting is fact and I challenge anyone to disprove it.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I actually agree with every part of your post ronw. Wherever you read it from this time was a good source.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> I actually agree with every part of your post ronw. Wherever you read it from this time was a good source.


Minor point: I believe "back tension dynamics" is an original.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Brunson, for your information, I have never read one single book about archery or anything related, in my life,..... except Lanny Basham's "With winning in Mind"....which has nothing to do with archery specifically.
what knowledge I have about archery, is my own, learned and developed through years of shooting. as I've said before, I may not shoot much, any more, but that doesn't change what I know. 
let me ask you a question.....have you been shooting for 40 years ?. 
EPLC, "back tension dynamics" is an issue you would only understand, if you used back tension and had a decent fundamental basis, for it's use.

you guys are...... aahhhh,.... well,..... lets just say......"funny". 
why is it you're both all upset about someone who knows a little about the issues. ?. 
am I saying things that are contrary to something you're telling the guys you are trying to teach...and it makes more sense ?. maybe those guys are calling you out, on the stuff your trying to tell them....is that it ?.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Upset? Hardly. I find it more amusing now than anything. What has 40 years of shooting awarded you? ...... other than words?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

what "awards", was/am I after ?. 
I shot because I liked archery, not because I am trying to get something for doing it.
the awards, if any, are simply the irrefutable knowledge I have of the sport. if that knowledge is wrong, I certainly don't see too many people disagreeing with what I post,.... do you ?.. 
as I said before, around 8 thousand active members, almost 2 thousand currently on the sight, and two are disagreeing with me,........ pretty insignificant , isn't it ?.

to top it off, one of those two, recently admitted he agrees with everything I posted..... so lets see,.... that brings it down to "one out of two thousand"....even more insignificant, don't you agree ?.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

There's plenty more than two. From what most of my PMs indicate, most have just gotten better at ignoring you. You seem to be missing the point completely. We (many more than two of us) agree with having solid fundamentals before branching out and experimenting with minor tweaks. That's not the argument. Anytime someone suggests anything beyond those fundamentals you comment arguing against their idea to the point of name calling and such, then get even more belligerent to the point your posts have to be edited by the moderator. 

The fact of the matter is that many of us that are well beyond what you "know" about competitive target shooting, can bring some new things to these conversations that may, or may not help someone else. These little tantrums you throw only derail very good topics and turn them into garbage. 

I could speak for myself and at least a dozen more who frequent this forum when I say that it has become tiring watching you pick fights with everyone over trival subjects. I think we all would agree that if someone is struggling with the basics that we could send them to you. You would have that plethora of regurgitated information to cram down their throats, and it would be a great place to start. Now that we are trying to talk about the next level stuff, we would appreciate it if you would let the guys actually doing it have their voice.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

^^^^ What he said. :set1_applaud:


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Back on topic....


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

redman said:


> Peep looks like the old papeep


Yeah it does. I still have a couple in my box from the late 70's. Most notably a 1/32" one. Talk about DARK.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

OK, so back on topic. Nobody has said it that I'm aware of but from the pics on posts 17 and 18 the drawing elbow is not what I would call "in line with the arrow'. The elbow is low compared to the wrist, suggesting that the shooter is stretched out too far. Now, not being too technically savvy I would ask if this has anything to do with his problem?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'll agree about the elbow alignment. whether or not he is "stretched out" is debatable as he does have some bend in hi bow arm.
that low elbow will for sure, negatively influence the shot.
as some say, "find what works for you and if you do it consistently, it will be fine" , doesn't always apply. in this case, that low elbow is a fundamental form issue that will produce inconsistent POI, in most cases. it simply has a propensity to influence the shot in a negative manor that would not exist, if it were in better alignment.
given the bend in his arm, I would say the flaws that exist, could be worked out potentially with out a draw length adjustment,...just a rearrangement of alignment and balance between front and rear of his form, to eliminate the low elbow.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

ron w said:


> i'll agree about the elbow alignment. whether or not he is "stretched out" is debatable as he does have some bend in hi bow arm.
> that low elbow will for sure, negatively influence the shot.
> as some say, "find what works for you and if you do it consistently, it will be fine" , doesn't always apply. in this case, that low elbow is a fundamental form issue that will produce inconsistent POI, in most cases. it simply has a propensity to influence the shot in a negative manor that would not exist, if it were in better alignment.
> given the bend in his arm, I would say the flaws that exist, could be worked out potentially with out a draw length adjustment,...just a rearrangement of alignment and balance between front and rear of his form, to eliminate the low elbow.


Precisely why I didn't mention a draw length adjustment. It could be that all he needs to do is push the bow forward (straighten the bow arm) and get used to it. An overhead shot would be helpful in this case.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Barry, ron, note the Poster's release hand. Just about anchoring in his "ear." That was my first concern, post #2. The comparison picture by PSE archer shows a bit. The Poster's and Jesse's bow arms are almost identical. Jesse well seems to have the correct stance where the Poster seems leaning back, bowed backwards. Almost seems his knees are bent.. Jesse is anchored in more of the classic, which appears splitting his index and middle finger to the corner of his jaw. If line were draw off the top of Jesse's draw foreman it would seem to run parallel to his arrow. Can't see his elbow so... If a line draw off the Poster's forearm the line would seem to run up hill from his arrows.

So a little correction here and there.......


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Kisser. Apparently you can use D loop material and make a half hitch. Padgett suggested to me to get an eliminator button, slit it open and slide over string then glue back together. Works really well. I just bought a pack from eBay for $5 and free shipping


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