# W&W or Hoyt



## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

Looking at buying a new riser in a few weeks, it's between W&W Sebastian Flute Ultimate Carbon Riser, or a GMX... pro's and cons? Or if you have another suggestion in the 5-600 range I would love to hear them. 

Thanks yall, 

Beefstew


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Theres a reason it's called win & win


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

I'd take a good look at the Win&Win Winex riser, save yourself a few bucks to spend on other pieces and parts. It's been around a while, it's proven. Unless you're really hung up on carbon, which I'm guessing you're not if you're considering GMX.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

W&W winex is really top notch unless you want to blast bucks for a top of line riser. It is one of those risers which are used at the very top level but still are reasonably priced.


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

It's interesting to see that the carbon fiber risers, which have now been on the market for while, haven't really caught on.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Hoyt GMX riser with Win&Win limbs.. I have the Inno EX Power limbs on my GMX and it will out shoot my Formula RX or HPX with F7 limbs..


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

How does it it "outshoot" it? Little bit faster with comparable weighted limbs?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

rick11743 said:


> It's interesting to see that the carbon fiber risers, which have now been on the market for while, haven't really caught on.


They have with me . I have an RCX-100 and I don't see that I'll ever want or need another riser again lol. I chose it mainly for its lightness, just a hair over 2lbs - I couldn't find a metal riser with weight that low that I liked so went with the RCX-100. 
But I've only met one other shooter who has one of these (by PM here on AT), so no idea why it's so unpopular. But that's fine, more leftover for me if I ever need to buy a spare lol...

LS


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Winex is as good a riser as they get. Carbon risers just offer something different, a bit more dampening and more dead shot.

Hoyt risers used to be good, when you could be sure that you always get a straight one. These days there seems to be so many twisted ones around that that doesn't count anymore. So there's really no redeeming features for them.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I have an Inno CXT that I really like a lot....great shot and vibration is controlled....no way I would change...

I did shoot a HPX with F7's the other night....WOW! That is a smooth bow!!!! Quiet and easy to shoot...

Try whatever you can and see for yourself, but at that level, I don't think you can go wrong...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

unclejane said:


> They have with me . I have an RCX-100 , I couldn't find a metal riser with weight that low
> so no idea why it's so unpopular.
> 
> LS


Most archers at the top level do not want a light riser. On the contrary, they want a heavy riser. Holds better in the wind and in the shot. If you watch any of the 2012 olympic archery, the Korean men all added weights directly to the top and bottom of their risers to make them heavier and sit better in the hand. I shoot an aerotec and one reason is that its a heavy riser. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Guess I'm not completely sold on carbon risers just yet. I like the heft and the feel of good solid aluminum in my hands. 

Of the two, I'd lean toward the GMX, or I'd recommend you look at the new W&W AL-1 aluminum riser. That's as good looking a riser as I've seen in a long time.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Guess I'm not completely sold on carbon risers just yet. I like the heft and the feel of good solid aluminum in my hands.
> 
> Of the two, I'd lean toward the GMX, or I'd recommend you look at the new W&W AL-1 aluminum riser. That's as good looking a riser as I've seen in a long time.


Any particular reason why you are not sold on carbon risers? I've found them to be excellent. They produce a soft, active shot and are light weight.


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

W&W introduced the AL1 because a lot of the top archers in Korea do not like the feel of the CXT. They prefer to have a lively riser that jumps out of the hand.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

My Inno X lite produces a very lively shot.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Any particular reason why you are not sold on carbon risers? ...............They produce a soft, active shot and are light weight.


Asked and answered.


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

The Inno X-Lite has a completely different feel than the Inno even though it has the same shape. The inner makeup is different. The CXT has a different feel comparted to both.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> Most archers at the top level do not want a light riser. On the contrary, they want a heavy riser. Holds better in the wind and in the shot. If you watch any of the 2012 olympic archery, the Korean men all added weights directly to the top and bottom of their risers to make them heavier and sit better in the hand. I shoot an aerotec and one reason is that its a heavy riser.
> Chris


Fortunately I'm not top level, hardly even at n00b level LOL. But yes I've heard heavier risers tend to be preferred, for me for some reason the lighter the riser the better. That may also be because I'm shooting such low poundage. 

And also because of my level and light poundage I can't tell any difference in terms of feel over against my Elan riser, tho it was years ago when I shot that one. It's very dead dead dead after the shot which I tend to really like. It's straight too....

LS


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

Between the GMX and the Winnex or AL-1 which bows are more forgiving, and which ones are the most adjustable? Also, any recommendations for limbs?

~Beefstew


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You could argue the WinEx and AL-1 are "more" adustable than the GMX because you have infinite levels of alignment adjustment vs. one shim at a time with the Hoyt dowel system. Having said that, they both work fine and are both solid adjustment systems. Tiller adjustment is the same on both. I'd shoot the GMX over the W&W risers for one reason primarily - the fact that it has a backweight bushing. This is something I require on my risers so I can customize the weight and balance to my preferences.

John


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

So the W&W has no bushings for weights or doinkers on the back? I've always used a doinker with a weight on the back of mine. How is the grip on the GMX compared to the W&W, I want something that fits well into my hand, I have big hands, but can't stand the grip on my Gold Medalist or my Eclipse.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

At the moment Hoyt make some of the best risers out there but their limbs aren't doing it in 2012 some may argue for a while now. Carbon risers just not ready because all the good tech for carbon fiber is mostly classified because of the use in military applications and until something better comes along for the military to use we have to wait for the tech to be declassified.

Metal risers have a proven record recurve and compound so thats the way to go for the moment.


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## huytheskigod (Aug 7, 2012)

DWAA Archer said:


> Carbon risers just not ready because all the good tech for carbon fiber is mostly classified because of the use in military applications and until something better comes along for the military to use we have to wait for the tech to be declassified.


Now I wouldn't say that. There is tons of carbon research happening in the private sector. Just look at bicycle industry and car industry. The amount of advances in carbon fiber bicycles alone in the last 10 years is staggering. the less than 16 pound carbon Specialized road bike I ride is stiffer and more efficient than any I've ridden in the past. Heck, BMC even puts carbon nanotube in the epoxy matrix that holds their bikes together. Carbon fiber is a great material for the appropriate application, but is it suited for risers? Time will tell.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

There is nothing special in Carbon heavy risers, as they react and perform as Alumimun ones. So, at the end it is just marketing and some added weights that make the difference.
One carbon riser only is really different, and shows in full the possibilities of carbon technology in archery, and is the Fiberbow 6.3 (and the 5.99 before). Riser is a 25" one, and is just a little over 600 grams, only, so average 1/2 of the risers already considered "light". 
Of course, is not for those that like heavy bows, but it is unbeatable for archers that really need a light bow.
Oscar De Pellegrin, Gold Medallist at London Paralympics with Fiberbow 6.3 riser and Fiberbow S3 stabilizers, is a clear example of what I mean. For wheelchair archers, the initial action to rise statically the bow is more complictated than for other archers, and a light riser helps a lot.
Same of course for all those that don't have a strong structure and nend something really light to manage properly a good shot. And, in any case, when you need more weight you can add it to the stabilizers at any time.

There is nothing of classified in carbon technology, but for sure there is a lot of technology in carbon products manufacturing. So you know it, or you don't. You own it, you buy it or simply you don't do it at all.


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## DIV (Apr 12, 2012)

ksarcher said:


> Hoyt GMX riser with Win&Win limbs.. I have the Inno EX Power limbs on my GMX and it will out shoot my Formula RX or HPX with F7 limbs..


That's the combination I'm after...I already have the GMX riser and I love it...I have to train and work my way up to the Inno Powers, but that's my goal. I saw more than a couple Olympians with this same set-up.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, that's a pretty deadly setup. Unfortunately, no Hoyt ILF limbs can compete with limbs like SKY, Border, W&W or Samick. I understand the F7 Formula limbs are pretty good though, and certainly Brady's bow shot well and sounded superb in Texas last weekend. So I am thinking they have something useful in the F7 limb. 

John


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

So, what makes W&W or Samick limbs better for ILF limbs? Is it just quality? Technology in the limbs?


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

zal said:


> Hoyt risers used to be good, when you could be sure that you always get a straight one. These days there seems to be so many twisted ones around that that doesn't count anymore. So there's really no redeeming features for them.


So you are saying they came from the factory twisted already. A cast and then machined riser and/or completely machined riser came already twisted from the factory? Or are you saying that they twist over time?


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

beefstew27 said:


> So, what makes W&W or Samick limbs better for ILF limbs? Is it just quality? Technology in the limbs?


I believe the opinion is that they shoot a few fps faster and they have a particular feel that those stressing they are better is good for them. I'm probably missing something.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

my samick extremes always outshot my Hoyt G3's. Hands down, more fps, smoother and overall I felt the samicks had a better feel to the shot. Now i am shooting the MK Vera wood core limbs. Its taking a little getting use the the feel of the wood vs the foam. 


I did not try the Hoyt formula series because they did not take ILF and i was not going to upgrade riser and limbs all in one hit. Besides there is nothing wrong with my Hoyt Aerotec, so i see no need to replace it at the moment. However i do like the look of the MK Korea risers. I may try one of them next year for a backup bow, and get another Aerotec as a backup backup. 

I want limbs and risers that fit in with all my existing gear, not something that is unique to itself and will not swap out. That was a deal breaker for me. There were tons of the Formula risers and limbs at the Olympics and i have seen several at my local range. They are nice, quiet and accurate bows, and proven on the top world level. But until they give me one, i have to buy gear that works with the other limbs and riser that i have. 




Chris


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Not the first I've heard about Hoyt's twisted out of the box risers. How does one know the riser is twisted?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Either fit with straight limbs (a lot of people keep one extremely straight set at bay for testing), measure with laser or use the old school glass surface. Or buy a Best Zenit, which will be straight.

All makers have twisted risers, earlier carbon risers were horrible in fact. Hoyt used to do pretty straight ones after elan, but these days they seem to have at least same amount of twisted risers as others. Some of their limbs (900's) were horrid. In my eyes Hoyt lost a lot of respect after nearly all 900's had that crack at limb butt top side, where limb butt laminations start. Whether it mattered or not, their solution to fix it was to fit that hideous metal plate to cover that area...

Still shoot the axis, though.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanx zal.... I have a glass top coffee table, so if I set it on this glass and eyeball, I should be able to see a difference if twisted?

Since my order didn't happen, (was going to buy a Horizon), am back on the fence of a GMX or Horizon but afraid to get a twisted Horizon.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

huytheskigod said:


> Now I wouldn't say that. There is tons of carbon research happening in the private sector. Just look at bicycle industry and car industry. The amount of advances in carbon fiber bicycles alone in the last 10 years is staggering. the less than 16 pound carbon Specialized road bike I ride is stiffer and more efficient than any I've ridden in the past. Heck, BMC even puts carbon nanotube in the epoxy matrix that holds their bikes together. Carbon fiber is a great material for the appropriate application, but is it suited for risers? Time will tell.


In the UK millions is spent on R&D of carbon just by F1 teams alone. Anyone selling carbon nanotubes dumped in epoxy is not making use of what they can actually do and what you are buying is at the moment a bit of a gimmick. When they start selling materials where the nanotubes have been organised into structures then you will see improvements and trust me there are.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Zal, I'd really like to see how many ACTUAL risers you've confirmed are twisted (I'm talking aluminum) and how you really tested them. And of all you've measured to confirm, what process in creation of those risers have been the most common (ie forged, machined, etc.) that have been twisted. 

There's a much better chance that either statically or dynamically, the limbs are twisted or slightly twisting in tension to give the riser the feel of being twisted.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Same here - I went into full Hoyt boycott mode when they came out with the Formula stuff. Vendor lock-in + too expensive == me going to Win&Win lol.... 

I'm kind of a bottom feeder on limbs and patronize the cheapest possible limb market - my skill set doesn't justify really good limbs at this point - and there W&W wins over Hoyt basically in cost, availability and general overall quality. I.e. my SF Axioms only cost 80 bucks a set and yet their fit and finish are actually better than the $200 Hoyt woodies I had on my first target bow. Also, the W&W limbs tend to be in stock; Hoyts usually are not and you have to wait weeks to get them. Finally, the W&W cheap woodies seem to stack less than the Hoyts I shot. 

So just better bang/buck ratio overall on the W&W. And now that W&W has a riser that fits what I want (lightest possible weight), I'm all Win&Win at this point...

LS


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

rharper said:


> Zal, I'd really like to see how many ACTUAL risers you've confirmed are twisted (I'm talking aluminum) and how you really tested them. And of all you've measured to confirm, what process in creation of those risers have been the most common (ie forged, machined, etc.) that have been twisted.
> 
> There's a much better chance that either statically or dynamically, the limbs are twisted or slightly twisting in tension to give the riser the feel of being twisted.


We had a college age shooter at our range order a new hoyt riser and limbs last year. when she got them I helped our range/store set it up. The riser, limbs and stab were way out of alignement. We couldnt get it to line up. We then put MY limbs and stab on her riser (since on my Aerotec they are perfectly aligned). We put her bow together, still couldnt get it to line up. We sent the riser back to Hoyt (her limbs on my bow and stab lined up perfectly). 

Hoyt sent a replacement. That replacement was just as out of wack and we spent a day trying to get everything to line up even remotely close. We couldnt. We sent the replacement riser back. The third riser Hoyt sent though still out of wack, was much less so than the other two. We elected to keep the third riser so she could start shooting. I believe the riser was a GMX, but it could be one model earlier. regardless, it was a top of the line riser, not a cheap one and a milled aluminium one. It was embarrassing to have her buy the best and it wouldnt line up. 

For what its worth. 

Chris


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## yeeha (Nov 23, 2007)

Hello All I shot A GMX for 4 years and liked it alot and bought a Winex as a backup. As I shoot the winex more this summer and got to like it much better than my gmx.Shoot both with winex limbs med. 38 and 40 lbs limbs to me it just has a better feel . Just my 2 cents worth


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

Zbone said:


> Thanx zal.... I have a glass top coffee table, so if I set it on this glass and eyeball, I should be able to see a difference if twisted?
> 
> Since my order didn't happen, (was going to buy a Horizon), am back on the fence of a GMX or Horizon but afraid to get a twisted Horizon.



I'm right there with you Zbone


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Hmmmm, now you guys have me leery of the GMX.... For $600 the thing oughta be straight wouldn’t ya think...

Do the W&R risers have interchangeable grips?

Thanx


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Define out of whack. We talkin an inch, half inch, eighth of an inch. What type of measuring device did you use to confirm just how "out of whack" it was?
I could see how the plug for the stab might be slightly out of alignment seeing how it's pressed into place. A long stabilizer would make a small misalignment look like a lot. Both the GMX and HPX I have, have plugs that sit proud of the riser.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, the W&W risers have replaceable grips. Custom grips are readily available for them too, just like the Hoyt risers.

I wouldn't worry too much about whether your GMX will be straight or not. Hoyt makes great risers. I can't believe this is a regular issue for them in their high end risers. Entry level? Yes, I've seen it myself. But not the GMX.

John


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

rharper said:


> Define out of whack. We talkin an inch, half inch, eighth of an inch. What type of measuring device did you use to confirm just how "out of whack" it was?
> I could see how the plug for the stab might be slightly out of alignment seeing how it's pressed into place. A long stabilizer would make a small misalignment look like a lot. Both the GMX and HPX I have, have plugs that sit proud of the riser.


 the stab was more than an inch left. and when we set the string centered on the limbs and riser, her arrow point was not straight, but pointed to the left. We tried changing the alignment washers to no avail. We had the beiter alignment clips at our disposal as well as several people who have setup many olympic recurve bows, and none of us could not get the string to split limbs and riser and line up with the stab. Once we have the string and limbs aligned to the riser, the stab pointing more than an inch left. 

what measuring devices do you use? Im glad your riser sits proud. So does my Aerotec. That riser did not. And I wasnt the only person working on that bow trying to get the limbs, string and stab to line up centered. Hoyt was awesome to send out a replacement riser twice with no questions asked and did so in a timely fashion. Funny how her limbs and stab lined up on my Aerotec. 

Several here have posted that risers are not lined up from Hoyt, i gave an example when it appeared you didnt believe it. Maybe in your neck of the woods all the Hoyt products are perfect. Or perhaps we, at our archery range dont have the technical ability or measuring devices to properly setup a bow and we sent back a perfect bow twice. 


Chris


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Straightness wouldn't be an issue if more people would send their twisted risers back for a straight ones rather than try to live with them. I bet you'd see more emphasis on quality control if manufacturers were getting 20% of their stuff back.

I no longer keep twisted gear, if it's not 100% straight back it goes. I'm not going to pay the amount of money things cost these days for an inferior product. As a result, I have 3-4 risers and 6 pairs of limbs I can put in any combination and end result is a perfectly straight bow.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Chris:

So the plug that holds the stab was recessed into the riser on both the ones you sent back?

Tool wise, I can use a milling machine table and then fixture blocks, indicators, etc to measure. To me, just eyeballing it wouldn't be satisfactory. Used to have access to a cmm machine. But obviously, not everyone has access to precision tools like that. It would be very interesting to see the machining process and gauging that goes into the production of the each model of the ILF risers. Tighter the tolerance, the more the cost goes up. Retail 240 for a Horizon versus 600 on a GMX, other then the obvious extra machining steps needed for the GMX, I'm guessing there is more that goes into checking tolerances as well.

Glad Hoyt set your friend up with different risers


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

zal said:


> Straightness wouldn't be an issue if more people would send their twisted risers back for a straight ones rather than try to live with them. I bet you'd see more emphasis on quality control if manufacturers were getting 20% of their stuff back.
> 
> I no longer keep twisted gear, if it's not 100% straight back it goes. I'm not going to pay the amount of money things cost these days for an inferior product. As a result, I have 3-4 risers and 6 pairs of limbs I can put in any combination and end result is a perfectly straight bow.


The reason for this is probably that most can't tell if there's a twist or not, at least not so bad that it'll affect the shot. Eyeballing it, in fact, can result in a false positive where there's actually not a problem. 

Most folks, including myself, simply adjust the centershot to suit and go shooting; it probably thereafter simply gets forgotten about and the archer goes about his/her career with the riser the way it is, as it shoots bullet-holes in the paper and tunes properly on the bare shaft as-is. 

As for Hoyt, as much as I dislike Hoyt the company, I never saw any detectable twist in my Hoyt risers. My Elan for example looked lined up quite fine and there was plenty of center-shot adjustment in case it was off. Maybe it was, but I couldn't tell. Same with my Gold Medallist. String went right down the center and had plenty of center shot. I don't recall any other GM owners worrying about twists in theirs either.

And under no circumstances do I ever get out precision measuring devices on a bow. We're talking about a stick with a string on it here - that leads to the rubber room rather than out to the field for a fun day of shooting. YMMV, but I'd prefer to reserve my sanity for learning how to shoot.

As for a bit of an offset in the stabilizer, I can't possibly see how that would affect the shot unless it's just way way off. My Beiter Centralizer setup is about a 1/2" off to the right at the end with respect to the plane of the string/arrow. Probably a bend in the stabilizer, could be varying thickness in the washers, could be a slightly off insert in the riser. Doesn't bother me a bit; it stabilizes the bow perfectly.

Anyway, the point being: please go shoot the bow first before you get out the calipers, laser levels and dial indicators. Go have some fun first, _then_ start measuring and cutting if the bow just won't behave.... 
10:1 tho, the bow will shoot just fine and the archer will never worry about whatever problem there might be for as long as they own the bow.

JMHO, of course 

LS


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

unclejane said:


> Anyway, the point being: please go shoot the bow first before you get out the calipers, laser levels and dial indicators. Go have some fun first, _then_ start measuring and cutting if the bow just won't behave....
> 10:1 tho, the bow will shoot just fine and the archer will never worry about whatever problem there might be for as long as they own the bow.
> 
> JMHO, of course
> ...


Some of us aren't in this really for the fun of it, rather we have to worry that the archers we coach get the best tools to be able to be successful in international competitions.

I agree, very few know how to measure things and even for them, most only measure under brace, rather than through the whole draw length range as you should. There was a limb model in past that was always fine at brace but could be really off center at full draw.

Beiter knows how to measure things, if you are unsure, take a trip there, like almost all national teams in the world do.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

zal said:


> Some of us aren't in this really for the fun of it, rather we have to worry that the archers we coach get the best tools to be able to be successful in international competitions.
> 
> I agree, very few know how to measure things and even for them, most only measure under brace, rather than through the whole draw length range as you should. There was a limb model in past that was always fine at brace but could be really off center at full draw.
> 
> Beiter knows how to measure things, if you are unsure, take a trip there, like almost all national teams in the world do.


Well maybe so, but you'd have to prove to me that modern equipment is so defective that sending it back to Hoyt for exchange 3 times at least is required, or that this supposedly defective stuff can't be made to shoot properly. 

My slightly off Beiter stab is just fine and I've already forgotten that it's on the bow.

I don't buy it, sorry. In fact, zillions of gold medals have been won and who knows how many perfect scores have been shot over and over down through the decades with, comparatively speaking, ancient equipment, much of which I'm sure wasn't given a lot of thought to. Most was simply adjusted until a proper tune was achieved and thereafter forgotten about.

All I'm saying is, we have a LOT more other stuff to worry about when we're at full draw. There're lots of things we can spend time doing in archery - we can spend 2 or 3 hours in the shop obsessing over an 1/8" somewhere, or we can get out the paper, do a tune and spend that time working on our shooting. 

It's up to you. If that's what's required for you, than knock yourself out. But I personally don't want to sit for 3 weeks without a bow because I had to send it back to Hoyt because it looked a little cockeyed even tho it shot perfectly well once adjusted. I'd rather take my "twisted" bow out to the field and work on the _real_ problem which is my form and shooting lol.... 

LS


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Bow that is not straight will be slower than one that is straight. Even that, all other things forgotten, is enough for competitive archers to look for straight ones.

And if I pay a bow with my own money, I will make very sure that it is as it should be. It would be rather silly for me to buy a car and live with one door fitted wrong way around as "you can still drive with it".


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

zal said:


> Bow that is not straight will be slower than one that is straight. Even that, all other things forgotten, is enough for competitive archers to look for straight ones.
> 
> And if I pay a bow with my own money, I will make very sure that it is as it should be. It would be rather silly for me to buy a car and live with one door fitted wrong way around as "you can still drive with it".


How much slower and why? Was it so far off that it couldn't be tuned properly or you were running out of adjustment somewhere? If not, drop 4 strands on the string and/or add a little peak weight - problem solved. I've seen it work, Scout's honor.

But if the latter case, I'm in full agreement that there's a problem with the bow. OTOH, it really does have to be way off for shooting it to get to that point. You should see my longbow - the shelf was cut so far off that the string lines up over an inch to the right when sighting directly down the shelf. That's at brace height. But it shoots far far better than I do, and even when I'm on, the bow dutifully puts the arrow right where I point it. That tells me it's quite good enough at full draw and during the power stroke.

As I remarked a moment ago in another thread, we hear all the time that "it's the archer, not the bow". If precision measuring equipment and hours of inspection, fiddling and work on the bench (at the cost of dear shooting practice) are required to detect whatever the problem is, you don't really believe that. Too much worry about the bow and what are really non-problems, then about the archer and his/her form, shooting, etc. 

Like I said, if you can't get a good tune period or there's really something about the bow that affects your score, I'm with you. But if only seems a little wonky when you look at it but it otherwise shoots a bullet hole, you're not going to convince me that there's a problem, and certainly nothing worth wasting an afternoon chasing about the shop. 

In fact, send me your messed up risers and I'll shoot em. I need a good backup bow anyway....

LS


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Unclejane, I agree with Your logic, and for all practical purposes, Your right.... but I will say that if I bought a new riser, especially at the current prices of top end risers, then I'd send it back over and over again until I got a good riser, since that's what I had paid for...twisted, beat up, and not 100% functional is for the category labeled "Used, and Factory Seconds"...Not to be confused with new, and top of the line...If it's true that Hoyt is having issues with their risers, then they better get their heads out of their butts, and fix this issue, Hoyt's reputation of building a good riser is still a pretty common opinion, but it seems that more and more of Archers are choosing NOT to spend their money on Hoyt limbs, since in a dollar to dollar comparison, there are numerous better Limb options available today...Maybe another reason that Hoyt has produced the new Paralever limb mounting design, perhaps??....Not bashing Hoyt, as I type this, I'm looking at my Formula RX rig right here beside me, contemplating doing some shooting outside, and deciding if it is going to rain any minute, or not....Take care............Jim


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

unclejane said:


> But if only seems a little wonky when you look at it but it otherwise shoots a bullet hole, you're not going to convince me that there's a problem, and certainly nothing worth wasting an afternoon chasing about the shop.
> 
> LS


You assume too much. Those risers we returned wouldnt shoot a bullet hole. her arrow came off the riser pointed to the left giving a false right tear. 

secondly, i feel if you buy a $600 plus top of the line riser, it should be right and should line up out of the box with straight limbs and a straight stab. 

Thirdly, you wont find any bows at the Olympics on the line that have a stab pointed an inch to the right or left. It may be fine for you to shoot sub standard gear that doesnt align, but most will want to be able to compete and have their gear correct.

And honestly, if you want to shoot with your bow not set up to the basic alignments, then thats on you. As you said, you are only shooting for fun. The days of someone showing up to a regional or national event with a sub par bow setup or mismatched arrows et and being competitive are long gone. The gear and the archers have gotten too good. Sure i have watched world championships on youtube from 1969 where the winners shot an 1190 for a Fita. Thats no good anymore. I dont believe there is a coach anywhere that doesnt put importance on a bow being setup correctly giving the archer the best possible possible shooting consistency. And so far you are the only person arguing that the shooter does not need that. I would be interested to know if you are a top level shooter since you state the bow setup doesnt need to be aligned. I would find that enlightening and surprising from a world class shooter.

Chris


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Note that I'm not saying to accept something that really truly _is_ beat up or twisted to the point that it's not 100% functional. I'm only talking about the _degree_ of the problem here such that it actually _is_ a problem. Sending a riser back to the manufacturer up to 3 times involves a lot of time without a bow and money too for shipping, etc. So do all those measurement tools - dial indicates and whatever else are expensive tools and their use is expensive too.
Finally, chasing the bow around the shop with a set of micrometers and magnifying glasses for a morning is a morning that could also have been spent out at the range shooting. 

So you want to be absolutely sure you're really chasing a _real_ problem if you're going to go to all that trouble and expense.

And I just don't think 1/16" of an inch here and there, or a stabilizer 1/2 or 1" off at the end justifies sacrificing that shooting/training time in exchange for chasing microscopic defects in a bow. Especially if the archer can tune and shoot the bow fine. You just don't have a problem there.

Again, we have mountains of evidence that micrometers are just not necessary to diagnose a problem with a bow. Like I said, archers have been winning gold medals and popping arrows into the same hole over and over for decades now with magnesium risers that have never had a straight-edge put to them. 

Maybe, _maybe_ at the very very elite level you're going to start to be able to tell the difference if something is off 1/16". But until then, if you can't see the twist and you're not running anything up to the stops somewhere to get a good tune, I call it wasted time and money to call it problem big enough to worry about.

Finally, I'm an aficionado too and I love well-made and nice looking equipment. Even I spent part of the farm on my Win&Win. But whether it was "twisted" or not was about priority #20 when I bought it. I was much more concerned with a) how much does it weigh, b) does it have the right geometry and size, c) what adjustments does it have, d) does it have all the AMO attachments... and so on. I don't think I've even checked it for a twist till this morning when I encountered this thread. I discovered my Beiter longrod sits about 1/2" to the right. But I've gotten a good tune by now and any leftover difficulties are now with the arrow rather than the bow. Uh oh, am I going to send the bow back to Win&Win and the Beiter off to Germany? Forget it! I'm going to go shoot in a little bit instead...

Anyway, just FWIW and as always YMMV....

LS


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

rharper said:


> Chris:
> 
> So the plug that holds the stab was recessed into the riser on both the ones you sent back?.
> 
> Glad Hoyt set your friend up with different risers


We assumed the pug was not aligned right on the risers we sent back, but we also had an issue with her arrow pointing to far left when the string was centered on the limbs and riser. Everything was left. The second riser the limbs, string and arrow lined up but the stab still pointed left. The third riser the string, limbs and riser lined up and the stab was only slightly left so we kept it. Hoyt was great though the whole process. And the shooter absolutely loved the riser and could not wait to get shooting with it. She is at college now still shooting it. I last saw her during summer break at our range. The next riser she gets will probably be a Hoyt. Not bashing Hoyt, there are numerous issues that can happen in manufacturing with any company. 

I just returned my easton stabilizer system as my bow was vibrating the stabs out of the end pieces that screw into the bow. One side arm and the front stab came out. THe epoxy that held them didnt. Easton is replacing them. Doesnt mean the line is bad, just i got one that had an issue. 

And i just had a thread on my MK Vera limbs developing a chip in them, and MK replacing them a month ago. I still shoot the Veras and would buy them again. 

Chris


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> You assume too much. Those risers we returned wouldnt shoot a bullet hole. her arrow came off the riser pointed to the left giving a false right tear.


Ok, now that's different, like I said. If the bow is that far out of whack that it affects the tune, I'm 100% on your side in calling the bow a problem. Now that you've cleared that up I'm with you that you're doing the right thing by treating the bow...



> secondly, i feel if you buy a $600 plus top of the line riser, it should be right and should line up out of the box with straight limbs and a straight stab.
> 
> Thirdly, you wont find any bows at the Olympics on the line that have a stab pointed an inch to the right or left. It may be fine for you to shoot sub standard gear that doesnt align, but most will want to be able to compete and have their gear correct.
> 
> ...


Like I said before, it's up to you whether you want to fiddle or whether you want to shoot. That's purely an individual decision and I respect whichever choice you make in that regard. And as I said, in case it's blatantly a problem - something that affects arrow flight or the score or the fit to the archer - I'm with you 100%

But my BS detector goes right off as soon as the microscopes and micrometers appear in search of a problem. And it's usually right - it usually indicates the archer looking for a problem in the equipment instead of where it really is - in the archer, or in his/her training in setting up the bow and selecting components. Again, it's a matter of degree and willingness to waste time and money (especially if it's other people's time/money). I tend to err on the conservative side in that case and try to rule out the archer first. _then_ I grab the tools and credit card and go after the bow if the problem doesn't turn out to be the archer. 

But that's just me and the way I do it. You're free to do it in any other way you please for as long and for as much money as you like.

I prefer to shoot and work on me and my skills before I take a hacksaw to the bow. The latter is very rarely necessary, tho I agree with you that yes it sometimes is....

LS


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I never said we used microscopes and micrometers. That was another poster (rharper) who wanted to know how we had discerned there was something wrong with the riser and the alignment. He didnt seem to think using our eye was definitive. That was what HE used. 

I said we had the beiter alignment clips. 


And the shipping was paid by Hoyt. The range returned the risers. And Hoyt is in Utah and we are in Nevada, so the time was a few days from return to get back. The college shooter shot a shop bow until hers was in. She only shoots at 20 yards indoors at the moment. 




Chris


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> I never said we used microscopes and micrometers. That was another poster (rharper) who wanted to know how we had discerned there was something wrong with the riser and the alignment. He didnt seem to think using our eye was definitive. That was what HE used. I said we had the beiter alignment clips.


He was right, in my view, to press you for that information. If I had been your student and it was my bow, I'd have been similarly demanding of hard evidence that it was the bow that was the problem and not me and my shooting. If you saw the quality of my shooting, you'd understand immediately the reason for my skepticism. But sounds like it turned out alright and was the bow after all. 

Still the amount of pushback one gets on things like this is amazing. I've had guys show me their bows and absolutely insist that they were twisted and were pieces of junk and yet the twist or defect was hardly visible or only visible with a really detailed description. And while they were waiting for their new ones, they were on the line still shooting the old one and just obliterating the gold with it. 

I never understood why the need to keep changing equipment when the current stuff works perfectly fine.... But that's just me...

LS


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Sorry, not to imply that I use these devices all the time to measure. If something was off, that's what I would use to see what exactly is off such as limb pockets, stab plug etc. In any case, sorry if I sounded rude about the whole thing. 

Back out to cut some new target lanes and get some more shooting in today.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

unclejane said:


> I never understood why the need to keep changing equipment when the current stuff works perfectly fine.
> LS


Exactly the reason i still shoot my 2004 Hoyt Aerotec as my main bow. 


Chris


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> Exactly the reason i still shoot my 2004 Hoyt Aerotec as my main bow.
> Chris


Yepper... and if I'd never been stupid enough to sell my gold medallist to get 16mb of memory for my old crap DIY 486 back in college, I'd still be shooting it today with my Axiom student limbs lol.... My Win&Win is lighter tho, so I'm better off and probably shouldn't complain. 

Now if I could just find a Pro Vantage with light enough limbs on it, I'd be set on compound also....

LS


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