# NCFAA Indoor Championship



## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

*Great to see and shoot with you yesterday PRAG.....

and yes.....I like the idea of releases having their own timer.....:wink:

Thank you again for the "treat at the watering hole" afterwards....I needed it!!!

Hope to see and shoot with you and Prag Jr. real soon....*
.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *Great to see and shoot with you yesterday PRAG.....
> 
> and yes.....I like the idea of releases having their own timer.....:wink:
> 
> ...


Carter used to make one just like that called the X-it I think...

You can also set one of those SCAT TJS releases up like that...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Sarge, please send me the scores ASAP. I got a busy day in the making and need to get this done so I can "get to work".


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Sarge, please send me the scores ASAP. I got a busy day in the making and need to get this done so I can "get to work".


Probably not going to happen...busy morning for me (I just spent most of my empty time posting here...) oops...I've got meetings from here to lunch...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> Probably not going to happen...busy morning for me (I just spent most of my empty time posting here...) oops...I've got meetings from here to lunch...


Oh come on man, I've got the other scores, just need the Greensboro ones. Does Carson have them?


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Oh come on man, I've got the other scores, just need the Greensboro ones. Does Carson have them?


I've got them...I'll try...I need to work on the classes and stuff as well...try to get it to you today...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> I've got them...I'll try...I need to work on the classes and stuff as well...try to get it to you today...


My cell phone is in-op today (too many text messages over the weekend :wink, so if you need to reach me, please do it via PM or email.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Looks like it is going to be sometime later today before I can give official results. We have a question or 2 about them that I would like to resolve before posting the results (I don't want to have to take a Mulligan here...)


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> Looks like it is going to be sometime later today before I can give official results. We have a question or 2 about them that I would like to resolve before posting the results (I don't want to have to take a Mulligan here...)


10-4 - there's some folks asking about the scores in the Regional Shoots forum - that's where I got the Black Rock scores.


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## mason1958 (Mar 15, 2008)

*State indoor results*

hey can someone post the results for n.c state indoor,soon


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Sorry Mason, I got tied up at home last night and didn't get to verify everything. It should all be posted sometime today...You will be happy with the results I suspect...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> Sorry Mason, I got tied up at home last night and didn't get to verify everything. It should all be posted sometime today...You will be happy with the results I suspect...


Sarge, I think we all knew that once you left the office, there wouldn't be any more work done on the scores. :wink:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Congrats to ALL the winners!!! Let's do it again next year!!!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Way to go Treaton....Jarlicker....Lucky....and congrats to my man Prag on his first title :clap:

Now on to more pressing issues.....MacGOO.....What the heck happened?:noidea:

You lost to *PRAG **AND* *LUCKY*...

No OFFENSE to Prag and Lucky.....but come on man.....we are gonna have to send you off to archery boot camp or something.:embara:


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## mason1958 (Mar 15, 2008)

*Ataboys for all*

THANKS FOR THE SCORES GOOD JOB WITH ALL THE WORK YOU PUT INTO THE SHOOTS & ORGANIZING.CONGRATS TO ALL THE SHOOTERS THIS YEAR,HOPE TO SEE MORE TO COME.LETS ALL GET READY FOR THE S.E. SEC.& TURNOUT IN GRAND OL SOUTHERN STYLE.:wink:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Hold the phone folks...there is a chance these results will need to be adjusted. It appears that my results lists may have been incomplete, causing me to list 2 shooters as un-qualified, who in fact may have been qualified. I am working on getting to the bottom of this now...Sorry for the confusion...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

psargeant said:


> Hold the phone folks...there is a chance these results will need to be adjusted. It appears that my results lists may have been incomplete, causing me to list 2 shooters as un-qualified, who in fact may have been qualified. I am working on getting to the bottom of this now...Sorry for the confusion...


I was very close to posting the results on the NCFAA website yesterday, but had a gut feeling that things might get changed again. I'll wait till I have 100% confirmation from you before putting the results on the web page.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

psargeant said:


> Looks like it is going to be sometime later today before I can give official results. We have a question or 2 about them that I would like to resolve before posting the results (I don't want to have to take a Mulligan here...)


TTT 
I appears you need more than one.....


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Bees said:


> TTT
> I appears you need more than one.....


Actually this will be his 5th.  But I know it's hard to get all this in order especially with the shot being held in 2 locations over 2 days. Whose a paid up member and who is not - who has shot a qualifier and who hasn't? 

I've told them both personally, but would like to publicly express my appreciation to Sarge & Carson for all the work they did in Greensboro. Don't know who held the fort down at Black Rock, but my hat is off to you as well.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Bees said:


> TTT
> I appears you need more than one.....


You want the job Bees??? You're more than welcome to it..


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Actually this will be his 5th.  But I know it's hard to get all this in order especially with the shot being held in 2 locations over 2 days. Whose a paid up member and who is not - who has shot a qualifier and who hasn't?
> 
> I've told them both personally, but would like to publicly express my appreciation to Sarge & Carson for all the work they did in Greensboro. Don't know who held the fort down at Black Rock, but my hat is off to you as well.


*:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: 

They all did a great job!!!

Thank You again.......*


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Bees said:


> TTT
> I appears you need more than one.....


your doing fine mulligians are cheap enough..


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

What mistake? I don't see anything that needs to be redone :wink:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> What mistake? I don't see anything that needs to be redone :wink:


2 of the shooters listed as unqualified are in fact qualified. I had incomplete information in some of the results, so I missed them. I will have it fixed tomorrow, both of those shooters wound up winning their respective classes...


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

psargeant said:


> 2 of the shooters listed as unqualified are in fact qualified. I had incomplete information in some of the results, so I missed them. I will have it fixed tomorrow, both of those shooters wound up winning their respective classes...



:doh: Just let me know and we can get it fixed tomorrow.:wink:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

There is now also a question about one of the guests who may in fact be a member. This is really frustrating...I am waiting on a response from the NFAA (he joined by phone) so I don't know how long it will be before I can repost the results. I have asked for all of the previous results to be removed...

How many Mulligans is that now:noidea:...??? Sorry everybody...we will be learning from this and taking steps to make this more seamless next year...


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

psargeant said:


> There is now also a question about one of the guests who may in fact be a member. This is really frustrating...I am waiting on a response from the NFAA (he joined by phone) so I don't know how long it will be before I can repost the results. I have asked for all of the previous results to be removed...
> 
> How many Mulligans is that now:noidea:...??? Sorry everybody...we will be learning from this and taking steps to make this more seamless next year...


Keep your head up and good work, I'm thinkin without people like you the NFAA would just be dust on the road at the local and state levels.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Thanks for the words of encouragement, but I'm nowhere near as good at this as goatboy...


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

psargeant said:


> Thanks for the words of encouragement, but I'm nowhere near as good at this as goatboy...



yea he has a helmet..


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Bees said:


> yea he has a helmet..


But I'm beginning to think he should wear it more often. :wink:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

At least he put one on...imagine that story without the "i WENT AND GOT A HELMET..." part...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

psargeant said:


> At least he put one on...imagine that story without the "i WENT AND GOT A HELMET..." part...


I have yet to hear this goat story but I must admit, it just got a lot more intriguing. 

Keep your head up Sarge. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

OK, I am finally confident that I have all of the questions answered. These results are official results for the NCFAA indoor Championship:
Division	Name	NFAA 300 Vegas 300 Total Score Place	
AFBHFS	
Amy Ashe	294	41	269	3	563	44	1st	
Cindy Benton	282	20	259	3	541	23 
Pam Ashe	269	16	271	5	540	21 

AFFS	
Janice Smith	300	49	290	10	590	59	1st	

AMBB	
Roger Ammons	265	14	250	2	515	16	1st	

AMBHFS-A	
Tim Eaton	299	53	289	10	588	63	1st	
Bentley Robison	299	41	286	11	585	52 


AMBHFS-B	
Lee Stinnett	293	29	278	5	571	34	1st	
Tom Sweet	291	32	279	5	570	37	2nd	
Larry Phillips	290	31	280	2	570	33 
Mark Jones	278	24	288	10	566	34 
Bobby Burns	274	16	253	1	527	17 

AMFS-A	
Mark Mc Fayden	300	50	296	14	596	64	1st	
Joe Rozmus	299	50	294	13	593	63	2nd	
Mike Alexander 299	40	294	12	593	52 
Brad Wright	300	47	291	10	591	57 
Matt McNeill	293	45	297	20	590	65 

AMFS-B	
Travis Purser	299	38	286	6	585	44	1st	
Steve Carson	290	29	289	10	579	39 

AMFS-C	
Steve Smith	297	36	288	10	585	46	1st	

AMFSL R/L	
Bob Park	272	13	274	3	546	16	1st	
Pat Sargeant	270	13	228	2	498	15 

CMBB	
Alex Sargeant	202	0	188	3	390	3	1st	

CMFS	
Clay Sweet	261	14	240	2	501	16	1st	
Zeb Sweet	239	11	201	0	440	11 

MSMFS	
Bill McWhorter	289	23	283	10	572	33	1st	
Jim Purser	279	24	275	4	554	28 

MSMTrad	
James Kimbrell	208	8	219	3	427	11	1st	

SFFS	
Susan Mathis	288	21	279	5	567	26	1st	

SMBHFS	
Randall Davenport	277	17	265	3	542	20	1st	

SMFS	
Lee Peedin	299	40	288	8	587	48	1st
Dave Palmer	290	31	272	8	562	39	
Don Nelson	284	14	266	7	550	21	

SMFSL R/L	
Jack Oneill	246	8	226	0	472	8	1st

SMTrad	
Robert Painter	203	5	199	1	402	6	1st

YAMFS	
Cody Glover	299	53	295	17	594	70	1st

YMFS	
Mason Smith	299	41	286	9	585	50	1st
Ty Pruitte	287	23	288	9	575	32	
Anthony Bristow	292	39	279	11	571	50	

YMFSL R/L	
Miles Heyman	196	0	227	3	423	3	1st

Guest	
Mike Thomas	294	33	283	7	577	40	1st
Johnny Pruitte (unqualified)	291	35	284	6	575	41	
Wilburn Wooten (unqualified)	264	10	265	5	529	15	
Andy Ashe	243	8	254	1	497	9


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Just keep sliding farther and farther down the list.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> Just keep sliding farther and farther down the list.


Goose eggs will do that to you...


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

psargeant said:


> OK, I am finally confident that I have all of the questions answered. These results are official results for the NCFAA indoor Championship:
> Division	Name	NFAA 300 Vegas 300 Total Score Place
> AFBHFS
> Amy Ashe	294	41	269	3	563	44	1st
> ...




what does unqualified mean?????


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

OneBowTie said:


> what does unqualified mean?????


Did not shoot one of the State Secondary tournaments.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

OneBowTie said:


> what does unqualified mean?????


Maybe he was shooting a BOW and it TECHniquely blew up and spewed parts in every GENERAL direction and didn't let him finish the round?? :noidea:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

itchyfinger said:


> Maybe he was shooting a BOW and it TECHniquely blew up and spewed parts in every GENERAL direction and didn't let him finish the round?? :noidea:


Easy there Tiger...lets not turn this into a bash fest...I know someONE is :set1_fishing: right now, but let's keep it out of this thread...


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Spoon13 said:


> Just keep sliding farther and farther down the list.


*Ahhhhhh..... sorry Honey....slip on a dress and heels and you can come shoot with me....NO ONE would dare protest it.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.......because they would all be dead from *
.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

psargeant said:


> Easy there Tiger...lets not turn this into a bash fest...I know someONE is :set1_fishing: right now, but let's keep it out of this thread...


Sorry Sarg :doh: :zip:


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Easy there Tiger...lets not turn this into a bash fest...I know someONE is :set1_fishing: right now, but let's keep it out of this thread...


well what does unqualified mean???

did you see VA'S state shoots....open to any NFAA member....forward thinking dont you think....perhaps they will real in some more shooters.....

y'all still stuck on that you must shoot so many shoots to qualify to shoot the ncfaa states????


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

OneBowTie said:


> well what does unqualified mean???
> 
> did you see VA'S state shoots....open to any NFAA member....forward thinking dont you think....perhaps they will real in some more shooters.....
> 
> y'all still stuck on that you must shoot so many shoots to qualify to shoot the ncfaa states????


I know you have to complete the tourny for your scores to qualify. For example if you have to shoot two rounds but only complete one you are unqualified. Maybe that's the case. :noidea:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

itchyfinger said:


> Sorry Sarg :doh: :zip:


No problem...just wanted to nip it in the bud...



OneBowTie said:


> well what does unqualified mean???
> 
> did you see VA'S state shoots....open to any NFAA member....forward thinking dont you think....perhaps they will real in some more shooters.....
> 
> y'all still stuck on that you must shoot so many shoots to qualify to shoot the ncfaa states????


Answered that question already (post 40)

Va actually, historically at least, had a state open and a state closed one you qualify for one you don't...not sure how it is there since the VBA is out and the VFAA is in...

Yes as of now our constitution and by-laws require you to shoot and turn in a score in at least 1 secondary tournament to be eligible for the State championship. Not a particularly stringent requirement...

We do have at least 1 open tournament a year. This year it was our Vegas open tournament at Gander Mountain Gsbo...open to all...and we never turn away someone that wants to shoot, you should know that...


itchyfinger said:


> I know you have to complete the tourny for your scores to qualify. For example if you have to shoot two rounds but only complete one you are unqualified. Maybe that's the case. :noidea:


See post 40...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *Ahhhhhh..... sorry Honey....slip on a dress and heels and you can come shoot with me....NO ONE would dare protest it.....
> .
> .
> .
> ...




Just know that I ain't shavin NOTHING!!!

AFFS HERE I COME!!!


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> No problem...just wanted to nip it in the bud...
> 
> 
> Answered that question already (post 40)
> ...



VBA or VFAA you do NOT have to shoot a qualifer for.....(been involved in both for 7 years never heard of any qualifying tourneys) Seems to me a good way to turn away 1st timers who want to try the shoot only to find out they dont qualify for awards weather they had a chance or not.... Just my opnion seems i would want to be a OPEN as possible in an area struggling for shooters period... I am not in any way bashing or condeming what you do Pat or any of the others involved in the NCFAA just sharing another point of view...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> VBA or VFAA you do NOT have to shoot a qualifer for.....(been involved in both for 7 years never heard of any qualifying tourneys) Seems to me a good way to turn away 1st timers who want to try the shoot only to find out they dont qualify for awards weather they had a chance or not.... Just my opnion seems i would want to be a OPEN as possible in an area struggling for shooters period... I am not in any way bashing or condeming what you do Pat or any of the others involved in the NCFAA just sharing another point of view...


While I agree that archery needs to be as inclusive as possible and let people that want to shoot, shoot, I can still understand and completely support the way the NCFAA does things. If a shooter can't find it in his/her schedule to support not one of the member clubs by attending only ONE secondary shoot, there is NO WAY, as a paid up member of NCFAA, that I want that person being eligible for the State Championship. That just doesn't seem right to me.

And I want you to know that in no way am I trying to stir up a storm, just offering the other side of the coin.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

X Hunter said:


> VBA or VFAA you do NOT have to shoot a qualifer for.....(been involved in both for 7 years never heard of any qualifying tourneys) Seems to me a good way to turn away 1st timers who want to try the shoot only to find out they dont qualify for awards weather they had a chance or not.... Just my opnion seems i would want to be a OPEN as possible in an area struggling for shooters period... I am not in any way bashing or condeming what you do Pat or any of the others involved in the NCFAA just sharing another point of view...


I think Virgina has got it right, come shoot if ya win ya win. 

Heck if North Carolina opened up the State shoot, I'm thinkin I know where the Mens Free Style award would be... :zip:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

OneBowTie said:


> well what does unqualified mean???
> 
> did you see VA'S state shoots....open to any NFAA member....forward thinking dont you think....perhaps they will real in some more shooters.....
> 
> y'all still stuck on that you must shoot so many shoots to qualify to shoot the ncfaa states????


Whooooaaaaaa!!!!!!

I thought I was in the wrong forum for a second 

anyone can shoot in Va....but only as a guest:wink:

But then there are some that live in the state but are PROtesting....so they are gonna shoot as a guest also:mg:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Whooooaaaaaa!!!!!!
> 
> I thought I was in the wrong forum for a second
> 
> ...



Hornet according to this thread any NFAA member from any state can come and win the Championship. they ain't scared.... 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=853335


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Spoon13 said:


> While I agree that archery needs to be as inclusive as possible and let people that want to shoot, shoot, I can still understand and completely support the way the NCFAA does things. If a shooter can't find it in his/her schedule to support not one of the member clubs by attending only ONE secondary shoot, there is NO WAY, as a paid up member of NCFAA, that I want that person being eligible for the State Championship. That just doesn't seem right to me.
> 
> And I want you to know that in no way am I trying to stir up a storm, just offering the other side of the coin.


I see your reasoning....but not everyone has the schedule that will allow it......

Take me for example....there are a few shoots that are close (an hour or so) but I have yet to shoot one....just not gonna happen right now. 4 full indoor rounds for me this year is all that is gonna be shot..... ONE practice round over Xmas......then LAS....NAA States....and the other State shoot. Just because someone can't make it doesn't mean you shouldn't allow me to shoot.

Should I have not shot LAS or the other state shoot which are much bigger then the rinky dink shoots that I could have gone to those weekends?

States is still a VERY small event in the grand scheme of things.....:wink: I don't even think the ASA has you qualify for States anymore...and if they did I could see that before indoors. There is $$ on the line there and a bid for the Classic. You win states indoors and you get a $10 trophy or plaque.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> VBA or VFAA you do NOT have to shoot a qualifer for.....(been involved in both for 7 years never heard of any qualifying tourneys) Seems to me a good way to turn away 1st timers who want to try the shoot only to find out they dont qualify for awards weather they had a chance or not.... Just my opnion seems i would want to be a OPEN as possible in an area struggling for shooters period... I am not in any way bashing or condeming what you do Pat or any of the others involved in the NCFAA just sharing another point of view...


How many first time shooters show up and pay $70 to shoot for awards? ($50 Membership in NFAA/NCFAA and a $20 entry fee)? We don't turn shooters away, they shoot as guests (and shoot for the day for $15 and the possibility of an award)



Spoon13 said:


> While I agree that archery needs to be as inclusive as possible and let people that want to shoot, shoot, I can still understand and completely support the way the NCFAA does things. If a shooter can't find it in his/her schedule to support not one of the member clubs by attending only ONE secondary shoot, there is NO WAY, as a paid up member of NCFAA, that I want that person being eligible for the State Championship. That just doesn't seem right to me.
> 
> And I want you to know that in no way am I trying to stir up a storm, just offering the other side of the coin.


I didn't make the rules, but I believe, right or wrong, that was the thinking...



Brown Hornet said:


> Whooooaaaaaa!!!!!!
> 
> I thought I was in the wrong forum for a second
> 
> ...


Anyone can shoot in NC too...


Brown Hornet said:


> I see your reasoning....but not everyone has the schedule that will allow it......
> 
> Take me for example....there are a few shoots that are close (an hour or so) but I have yet to shoot one....just not gonna happen right now. 4 full indoor rounds for me this year is all that is gonna be shot..... ONE practice round over Xmas......then LAS....NAA States....and the other State shoot. Just because someone can't make it doesn't mean you shouldn't allow me to shoot.
> 
> ...


Come on Hornet...you couldn't have found a way to support your local club by going to one of their shoots...

For all of you, like I said above, I didn't make the rules, I don't really know what the prevailing attitude of our membership is, that is what should make this decision. At some point in the past, that is what they decided...Maybe it is something we should discuss this year when we have our meeting...


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> While I agree that archery needs to be as inclusive as possible and let people that want to shoot, shoot, I can still understand and completely support the way the NCFAA does things. If a shooter can't find it in his/her schedule to support not one of the member clubs by attending only ONE secondary shoot, there is NO WAY, as a paid up member of NCFAA, that I want that person being eligible for the State Championship. That just doesn't seem right to me.
> 
> And I want you to know that in no way am I trying to stir up a storm, just offering the other side of the coin.


See to me thats basically stating that your afraid of people other than the local bunch coming in and taking your spot on the podium... Hell as far as that goes you can come to VA and shoot the ASA state 3D (which supposedly you have to qualify for) I shot 3 of em and never shot a qualifer 



psargeant said:


> How many first time shooters show up and pay $70 to shoot for awards? ($50 Membership in NFAA/NCFAA and a $20 entry fee)? We don't turn shooters away, they shoot as guests (and shoot for the day for $15 and the possibility of an award)
> 
> I didn't make the rules, but I believe, right or wrong, that was the thinking...


Yea Pat your right but with it set up this way(having to join both) ( In VA youo can join just the state affiliate $14.50 i believe) you deffinatly turn away any 1st timers giving them the mindset that if they are not paying to play in your group then you dont want them to play at all...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> Yea Pat your right but with it set up this way(having to join both) ( In VA youo can join just the state affiliate $14.50 i believe) you deffinatly turn away any 1st timers giving them the mindset that if they are not paying to play in your group then you dont want them to play at all...


Sorry dude, but you're wrong. It is true you can joing the VBA only becuase they are no longer affiliated with the NFAA. I'm pretty sure you cannot join just the VFAA, you must also join the National org. (That, among other things, is one of the reasons the VBA is no longer the NFAA affiliate). I am going to check on that though.

As the president of the NCFAA, I would like to be able to give that option, I don't believe as the NFAA affiliate we can do that...Even in his thread the VFAA director said "All NFAA Members"...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Here is the VFAA membership form directly from their website:
http://www.vfaa.org/files/NFAA_and_VFAA_Membership_Form2.pdf

Says right in the middle "You must pay VFAA and NFAA fees"

Like I said, VBA is different now that they are not the NFAA affiliate...

VBA also requires 2 shoots to be able to shoot in "class" so unless you're a top shooter, you have to shoot at least 2 shoots to qualify...probably don't matter to you (a 550+ field shooter), but to me, putting me in AA class gives me exactly the same chance of winning as putting me in guest class...

The VBA also has a state closed where only VBA members can compete sorry...

I ain't a dummy and even though I'm a little on the young side, I've been around this archery block a few times...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> See to me thats basically stating that your afraid of people other than the local bunch coming in and taking your spot on the podium... Hell as far as that goes you can come to VA and shoot the ASA state 3D (which supposedly you have to qualify for) I shot 3 of em and never shot a qualifer


Not at all. It is not fear of an outsider coming in to steal the Championship that is the motivator. My stance is that it protects the membership. If you have people that can come shoot whatever event and win prizes and be on the same level as the membership without being members, what is the point in being a member?? There has to be some kind of separation between members and non-members so that the non-members are encouraged to join. It would be nice if there was some way to setup reciprocity among neighboring states so that once a member shooter was qualified in say VA, that would make them equally qualified in NC and MD or where ever to shoot the for the State Championship. That way shooters that choose to travel can shoot as members because we are all members of NFAA.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Spoon13 said:


> Not at all. It is not fear of an outsider coming in to steal the Championship that is the motivator. My stance is that it protects the membership. If you have people that can come shoot whatever event and win prizes and be on the same level as the membership without being members, what is the point in being a member?? There has to be some kind of separation between members and non-members so that the non-members are encouraged to join. *It would be nice if there was some way to setup reciprocity among neighboring states* so that once a member shooter was qualified in say VA, that would make them equally qualified in NC and MD or where ever to shoot the for the State Championship. That way shooters that choose to travel can shoot as members because we are all members of NFAA.


BINGO - we have a winner.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> Not at all. It is not fear of an outsider coming in to steal the Championship that is the motivator. *My stance is that it protects the membership*. If you have people that can come shoot whatever event and win prizes and *be on the same level as the membership without being members, what is the point in being a member??* There has to be some kind of separation between members and non-members so that the non-members are encouraged to join. It would be nice if there was some way to setup reciprocity among neighboring states so that once a member shooter was qualified in say VA, that would make them equally qualified in NC and MD or where ever to shoot the for the State Championship. That way shooters that choose to travel can shoot as members because we are all members of NFAA.


Exactly...


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Spoon13 said:


> Not at all. It is not fear of an outsider coming in to steal the Championship that is the motivator. My stance is that it protects the membership. If you have people that can come shoot whatever event and win prizes and be on the same level as the membership without being members, what is the point in being a member?? There has to be some kind of separation between members and non-members so that the non-members are encouraged to join. It would be nice if there was some way to setup reciprocity among neighboring states so that once a member shooter was qualified in say VA, that would make them equally qualified in NC and MD or where ever to shoot the for the State Championship. That way shooters that choose to travel can shoot as members because we are all members of NFAA.





pragmatic_lee said:


> BINGO - we have a winner.





psargeant said:


> Exactly...


sounds pretty reasonable.....so reasonable that perhaps somebody should put this on a agenda for next year.....

everyone in archery needs to wake up.....it aint growing...look at the numbers, they speak for themselfs....the nfaa numbers keep shrinking yearly....and its gonna take some forward thinking, along with some people to stand up and tell the others..... we need to do something different.....and perhaps on the states levels, something along the lines of what is discussed here.....

bottom line, there were plenty of shooters that didnt/wont attend VA/NC/MD and all the other state shoots.....not everyone is into collecting state titles anyway.....some simply enjoy shooting and have too much on the plate to attend qualifiers.....or some may even be injured and must pick and choose wisely what or where they will shoot

good discussions going on

but HORNET.....there is a thread that is openly stating that the VA STATE CHAMPIONSHIP welcome ALL NFAA MEMBERS TO SHOOT THE VA CHAMPIONSHIP......
i dont know the fine print, but it didnt look like if i wanted too, id have to join any other org to shoot it


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

OneBowTie said:


> sounds pretty reasonable.....so reasonable that perhaps somebody should put this on a agenda for next year.....
> 
> everyone in archery needs to wake up.....it aint growing...look at the numbers, they speak for themselfs....the nfaa numbers keep shrinking yearly....and its gonna take some forward thinking, along with some people to stand up and tell the others..... we need to do something different.....and perhaps on the states levels, something along the lines of what is discussed here.....
> 
> ...



That is perfectly fine, but I don't think that it is a requirement to be a member of NFAA/State org to toe the line. I didn't see anyone get turned away that wanted to poke holes in paper. I personally think those that use that excuse to not go to a shoot are just validating the fact that they didn't show. There were several people at the NCFAA State that shot as "Guests" because they wanted to shoot. I am sure that is the same in other States as well. I even tried to convince some of my chewie friends to come shoot but alas chewies are a fickle bunch. Maybe next year.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

OneBowTie said:


> sounds pretty reasonable.....so reasonable that perhaps somebody should put this on a agenda for next year.....
> 
> everyone in archery needs to wake up.....it aint growing...look at the numbers, they speak for themselfs....the nfaa numbers keep shrinking yearly....and its gonna take some forward thinking, along with some people to stand up and tell the others..... we need to do something different.....and perhaps on the states levels, something along the lines of what is discussed here.....
> 
> ...


OBT, you know me and even though we've bumped heads on a few issues, I think we can still call each other friends. :wink:

I am all for opening the lines of communications not only within the NCFAA but also jointly with our adjoining states; however, I really don't think this thread is the place to do it.

Yes, some may take exception with how the NCFAA State Championship was conducted, but it was done within the "existing" constitution and to the best of my knowledge every effort was made on Sarge's part to ensure that only those qualified as per the "existing rules" were/will be awarded.

Now, you've probably thrown away more trophies that I'll ever win, but I'm damn proud of the one I won this weekend and refuse to let it be belittled by anyone who don't like the way the game was played.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

OneBowTie said:


> sounds pretty reasonable.....so reasonable that perhaps somebody should put this on a agenda for next year.....


Here is where my inexperience comes in but, wouldn't a reciprocity agreement be the responsibility of the state level orgs and NOT the parent NFAA?? Now the State By-Laws may need tending to so that this could happen but there is no need to involve the NFAA and make this harder than it has to be. 

Just askin.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> Here is the VFAA membership form directly from their website:
> http://www.vfaa.org/files/NFAA_and_VFAA_Membership_Form2.pdf
> 
> Says right in the middle "You must pay VFAA and NFAA fees"
> ...



Im not talking about the VBA thats a im taking my ball and going home org IMO

I could be wrong on joing just the VFAA but i thought i seen that option on the application form last year


Now dont get me wrong on my view.. The whole qualifying thing is what has me wondering i believe you SHOULD be a member to recieve awards from the org but shooting a qualifer to recieve awards well you might as well count me out of most state shoots in VA( if we had them) cause i hardly ever shoot a what would be considered a qualifer because i have other agendas and most of my shooting occours during the week after work as it does for most(i think anyways) but as far as me cancelling plans to shoot a "qualifer" so i can shoot a state shoot count me out of alot of state shoots. Now dont take that as not wanting to support the local clubs casue i do i join 2 clubs every year put hours in at work parties and attend shoots when my scheudle allows it (allows it more during field season:wink

But back to my "hitch" on the whole "qualifying" thing if it was so necessary then how come your not required to shoot sectionals or states in order to shoot Nationals??


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> OBT, you know me and even though we've bumped heads on a few issues, I think we can still call each other friends. :wink:
> 
> I am all for opening the lines of communications not only within the NCFAA but also jointly with our adjoining states; however, I really don't think this thread is the place to do it.
> 
> ...


Lee please dont misunderstand my point i am in no way discreditng anybody that won awards this weekend cause you got to shoot in order to win so congrats on your victory and dont think for a second that its tainted in any way!!!!


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> Im not talking about the VBA thats a im taking my ball and going home org IMO
> 
> I could be wrong on joing just the VFAA but i thought i seen that option on the application form last year
> 
> ...


Here's my take on that one. The NFAA is solely concerned for the welfare of the NFAA and no one else. Therefore any current member of NFAA is allowed to shoot Nationals. The state orgs have more at stake (no pun intended), because it seems as though they are as equally concerned for the well being of it's member clubs as it is it's own health.

NCFAA only requires a shooter to turn in a score at ONE shoot before being eligible for the State Championship. There aren't designated Qualifiers like ASA does. Every shoot counts. It is an effort by the NCFAA to help the local clubs stay in business. It makes shooters participate at the local level.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

X Hunter said:


> Lee please dont misunderstand my point i am in no way discreditng anybody that won awards this weekend cause you got to shoot in order to win so congrats on your victory and dont think for a second that its tainted in any way!!!!


10-4 buddy - thanks. And I fully understand why you couldn't make it on Sat. :wink: BUT, Sunday is a different story. I'm thinking that after you saw my 5 spot score you knew you were going to lose that little wager. But you MOST LIKELY would have got it back on the 3 spot. :wink:


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> Here's my take on that one. The NFAA is solely concerned for the welfare of the NFAA and no one else. Therefore any current member of NFAA is allowed to shoot Nationals. The state orgs have more at stake (no pun intended), because it seems as though they are as equally concerned for the well being of it's member clubs as it is it's own health.
> 
> NCFAA only requires a shooter to turn in a score at ONE shoot before being eligible for the State Championship. There aren't designated Qualifiers like ASA does. Every shoot counts. It is an effort by the NCFAA to help the local clubs stay in business. It makes shooters participate at the local level.


But to joinn the NFAA you must join the state affiliate so it woould seem to me they have more to lose if people arent joing at the state level cause then less people will be at the national level shoots..... Right???


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> 10-4 buddy - thanks. And I fully understand why you couldn't make it on Sat. :wink: BUT, Sunday is a different story. I'm thinking that after you saw my 5 spot score you knew you were going to lose that little wager. But you MOST LIKELY would have got it back on the 3 spot. :wink:


Lets just say more of the same happened sat night


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

X Hunter said:


> But to joinn the NFAA you *must join the state affiliate* so it woould seem to me they have more to lose if people arent joing at the state level cause then less people will be at the national level shoots..... Right???


X Hunter, the requirement for "Regular" NFAA membership goes one step further. 

Regular - Affiliate through your *local* and state association and be eligible for all NFAA tournaments and programs. Fee for Individual member or the Head of Household is $35.00 plus State Association Dues (see chart on membership application screen) annually.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

X Hunter said:


> Lets just say more of the same happened sat night


Well, I'd like to shake your hand the next time we meet up - that is if you've washed it. :wink:


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> But to joinn the NFAA you must join the state affiliate so it woould seem to me they have more to lose if people arent joing at the state level cause then less people will be at the national level shoots..... Right???


Not really. Look at ASA. There is no State level organization and there are 800-1200+ shooters at each Pro/Am event. 

People that want to shoot at that level will shoot it no matter if there is a State level org and shoots or not.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> X Hunter, the requirement for "Regular" NFAA membership goes one step further.
> 
> Regular - Affiliate through your *local* and state association and be eligible for all NFAA tournaments and programs. Fee for Individual member or the Head of Household is $35.00 plus State Association Dues (see chart on membership application screen) annually.


True but my "local" affiliates i join are not NFAA affiliated and the main club i join shows up on my NFAA card is not a NFAA club but i still qualify that one has had me from the get go???


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> Not really. Look at ASA. There is no State level organization and there are 800-1200+ shooters at each Pro/Am event.
> 
> People that want to shoot at that level will shoot it no matter if there is a State level org and shoots or not.


True but the ASA dosent require you to join through a state affilaite to become a member.... The NFAA does


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

X Hunter said:


> True but the ASA dosent require you to join through a state affilaite to become a member.... The NFAA does


We'll have to sit down and hash all this out one day. I think there is a way to help protect the local clubs and State orgs and still encourage people to come out and shoot. 

I have been an ASA member for the last 3 years and have only been an NFAA/NCFAA member since December. I will say that NFAA seems to offer more support at the local level via the State orgs than the ASA does. Not having participated at the National level yet in NFAA I am reserving judgment.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> Im not talking about the VBA thats a im taking my ball and going home org IMO
> 
> *1) I could be wrong on joing just the VFAA *but i thought i seen that option on the application form last year
> 
> ...


1) you are wrong...showed you the form linked from their website...

2) That is exactly why this rule is in place, and exactly what is wrong right now...Sunday shoot just isn't important enough to show up at:dontknow:...without those Sunday (or Saturday or whatever day) shoots, how do the clubs survive? By holding a state shoot every 3-4 years? I don't think so...The state shoots are $$ losers thanks to the class system, we wind up giving 24 awards to 42 shooters....At my club, the only reason we have a field range is because I spent my $$ building it...It certainly isn't because there is a ton of money in hosting Field shoots...

I think we should stop having this discussion in this thread though...Its probably more appropriate for us to congratulate the winners here...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> True but my "local" affiliates i join are not NFAA affiliated and the main club i join shows up on my NFAA card is not a NFAA club but i still qualify that one has had me from the get go???


Some areas have a local Field archery association as well. In the Buffalo NY area where I am from, you Join WNYFA+B (Western New York Field Archers + Bowhunters), NYFA+B, and the NFAA just to play on a local level.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

psargeant said:


> 1) you are wrong...showed you the form linked from their website...
> 
> 2) That is exactly why this rule is in place, and exactly what is wrong right now...Sunday shoot just isn't important enough to show up at:dontknow:...without those Sunday (or Saturday or whatever day) shoots, how do the clubs survive? By holding a state shoot every 3-4 years? I don't think so...The state shoots are $$ losers thanks to the class system, we wind up giving 24 awards to 42 shooters....At my club, the only reason we have a field range is because I spent my $$ building it...It certainly isn't because there is a ton of money in hosting Field shoots...
> 
> I think we should stop having this discussion in this thread though...Its probably more appropriate for us to congratulate the winners here...


So by a person not having time in their scheudle to shoot a qualifer they will not shoot the state shoot because they didnt qualify which means even more loss for the the host club.... You dont have to tell me about the lack of money when running a range we deffinatly appreicate what guys like you do for our sport it wouldt be if if not for the few hard workers that keep the ball rolling...... 

Congrats to all who came and shot!!!



psargeant said:


> Some areas have a local Field archery association as well. In the Buffalo NY area where I am from, you Join WNYFA+B (Western New York Field Archers + Bowhunters), NYFA+B, and the NFAA just to play on a local level.


Got ya that make more sense


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> So by a person not having time in their scheudle to shoot a qualifer they will not shoot the state shoot because they didnt qualify which means even more loss for the the host club.... You dont have to tell me about the lack of money when running a range we deffinatly appreicate what guys like you do for our sport it wouldt be if if not for the few hard workers that keep the ball rolling......
> 
> Congrats to all who came and shot!!!
> 
> ...


Its simply an attempt try and get people out to the local shoots...Maybe worthwile, maybe not. I'm not sure. What I can say is the trend is for people (and some of them on this thread) to be more than happy to show up when their is some big draw, then go home. I ain't saying our way is perfect, but too many folks will only come to a "big" shoot and expect that this sport will survive. I got news for you, the "big" shoots do nothing to help the struggling club, state organization, etc survive...

Once again, I say Thank You and Congratulations to all who came out.


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Spoon13 said:


> That is perfectly fine, but I don't think that it is a requirement to be a member of NFAA/State org to toe the line. I didn't see anyone get turned away that wanted to poke holes in paper. I personally think those that use that excuse to not go to a shoot are just validating the fact that they didn't show. There were several people at the NCFAA State that shot as "Guests" because they wanted to shoot. I am sure that is the same in other States as well. I even tried to convince some of my chewie friends to come shoot but alas chewies are a fickle bunch. Maybe next year.


you obviously have not had any injuries...more specifically those that interfere with shooting a bow



pragmatic_lee said:


> OBT, you know me and even though we've bumped heads on a few issues, I think we can still call each other friends. :wink:
> 
> I am all for opening the lines of communications not only within the NCFAA but also jointly with our adjoining states; however, I really don't think this thread is the place to do it.
> 
> ...


Lee heck yes we are friends.....hopefully for a very long time....and congrats on your championship, in no way am i saying the results would/should be any different no matter how the field is set

i do believe that anywhere we can get communications like what is going on here is positive and good for the NCFAA

congrats to all those that attended and wish i could have myself....but until my shoulders change, i will be very selective on where or how i shoot a bow.....i definately would have come and shot as a guest or anyway if shoulders would have allowed......

i think its great seeing some new names and faces out there in the NCFAA....however, if you look at those, it appears that outside of the durham area, the state is losing participation levels......

and here is my view, as looking at it, maybe others are thinking that we've turned into a club type atmosphere where we arent welcoming in the rest of the state.....i might be wrong, and hope so.....

congrats to all the winners and to all those that shot a score......

hope to be out toeing the line with all y'all soon.....

here is the thread of VA and it looks like they are saying any NFAA member is welcome and can indeed compete and win whatever prizes they are offering...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1053950171#post1053950171



Spoon13 said:


> Here is where my inexperience comes in but, wouldn't a reciprocity agreement be the responsibility of the state level orgs and NOT the parent NFAA?? Now the State By-Laws may need tending to so that this could happen but there is no need to involve the NFAA and make this harder than it has to be.
> 
> Just askin.


i think you are correct here.....and i think its simply a state and membership desire or lack of for this type of thing....


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Its simply an attempt try and get people out to the local shoots...Maybe worthwile, maybe not. I'm not sure. What I can say is the trend is for people (and some of them on this thread) to be more than happy to show up when their is some big draw, then go home. I ain't saying our way is perfect, but too many folks will only come to a "big" shoot and expect that this sport will survive. I got news for you, the "big" shoots do nothing to help the struggling club, state organization, etc survive...
> 
> Once again, I say Thank You and Congratulations to all who came out.


Pat, i think that was the whole intent when this rule was put in place...to try to drive more attendance.....

but from looking at the results from the qualifiers and all....it appears that perhaps its not working.....and it may be time to try something else....

to all those who are supporting the state level shoots.....i admire you and hope that this continues...because not too long ago, we had about 0 participation in our state ......

great shooting to all at ALL of the state shoots.....


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

OneBowTie said:


> Pat, i think that was the whole intent when this rule was put in place...to try to drive more attendance.....
> 
> but from looking at the results from the qualifiers and all....it appears that perhaps its not working.....and it may be time to try something else....
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to take responsibility for the low attendance this year. Our schedule came out late, was not particularly coordinated, and was not promoted well at all. It is my first year doing this and I now fully understand why Joe was burnt out. I have learned some lessons for next year (since I doubt anybody else is going to volunteer to take over) and it should be better. The fact of the matter is there are precious few folks willing to help out, and that makes keeping this going especially difficult...I've got a wife, 2 kids, a demanding job, travel soccer (oldest son), a field range to maintain, etc...there is only so much time in the day.

Archery as a sport may be suffering in some parts of the country, but I suggest to you that here in NC, we are growing. Our state field shoot in 2002 was a total of 6 shooters. It has grown each year for the last several years (though it is still admittedly pretty small)...Our State indoor was small this year compared to last, but still significantly bigger than in say'02. We are lucky to have a group of dedicated individuals who are willing to try and make it happen around here, and that is the real difficult piece...


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

psargeant said:


> I'm going to have to take responsibility for the low attendance this year. Our schedule came out late, was not particularly coordinated, and was not promoted well at all. It is my first year doing this and I now fully understand why Joe was burnt out. I have learned some lessons for next year (since I doubt anybody else is going to volunteer to take over) and it should be better. The fact of the matter is there are precious few folks willing to help out, and that makes keeping this going especially difficult...I've got a wife, 2 kids, a demanding job, travel soccer (oldest son), a field range to maintain, etc...there is only so much time in the day.
> 
> Archery as a sport may be suffering in some parts of the country, but I suggest to you that here in NC, we are growing. Our state field shoot in 2002 was a total of 6 shooters. It has grown each year for the last several years (though it is still admittedly pretty small)...Our State indoor was small this year compared to last, but still significantly bigger than in say'02. We are lucky to have a group of dedicated individuals who are willing to try and make it happen around here, and that is the real difficult piece...


preaching to the choir Pat


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

I can say regardless of awards you will undoubtly see a few commonwealthers at more the a few of your shoots this spring!!!!:darkbeer:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

X Hunter said:


> I can say regardless of awards you will undoubtly see a few commonwealthers at more the a few of your shoots this spring!!!!:darkbeer:


Bring it on commonwelchers...its not like jarlicker, treaton and I haven't been up for enough of y'alls shoots in the past...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

OneBowTie said:


> you obviously have not had any injuries...more specifically those that interfere with shooting a bow


Oh but I have. I was fortunate enough to be able to get back on the string in enough time to qualify (turn in a score) myself for the State Championship and to attempt to gain that title. However, had I not been able to qualify I would still have toed the line and shot the tournament as a guest. I hate that you were unable to do the same.

My point was that the people that say "I'm have not qualified so I am not going." probably weren't going anyway and use the qualification excuse as merely that, an excuse and validation of them not going to start with.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> Oh but I have. I was fortunate enough to be able to get back on the string in enough time to qualify (turn in a score) myself for the State Championship and to attempt to gain that title. However, had I not been able to qualify I would still have toed the line and shot the tournament as a guest. I hate that you were unable to do the same.
> 
> My point was that the people that say "I'm have not qualified so I am not going." probably weren't going anyway and use the qualification excuse as merely that, an excuse and validation of them not going to start with.


Ding, ding, ding...We have a winner...:clap:


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

Spoon13 said:


> Oh but I have. I was fortunate enough to be able to get back on the string in enough time to qualify (turn in a score) myself for the State Championship and to attempt to gain that title. However, had I not been able to qualify I would still have toed the line and shot the tournament as a guest. I hate that you were unable to do the same.
> 
> My point was that the people that say "I'm have not qualified so I am not going." probably weren't going anyway and use the qualification excuse as merely that, an excuse and validation of them not going to start with.


i hear you...glad that you have recovered from your injury also

there are also some....and many in archery that simply dont get all involved like many on this thread......and they do tend to want to simply come out for the MAJORS......which in our state is the state or possibly a sectional shoot....

as soon as i can shoot.....ill come and QUALIFY for another shoot:wink:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Group Hug :wink:

Lots of GOOD POSITIVE COMMUNICATIONS here - I'll have more responses later, but pressed for time right now with the auction starting in about an hour.


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

People as you already know Archers are an extremelly quirky bunch. No matter what is decided by the majority present at said discussion their are always a very large amount of people that dont like what was just decided.

We keep throwing all this junk into a pot. The pot just continually get stirred, the heat keeps increasing, until all the tasty stuff just evoporates into the air, We are just left with all the substance in the bottom. We continue to stir and add more heat, then we just end up with mush.
Then guess what? No body wants it any more.

Cant we just simplify things. 
If you want to shoot archery, Show up at the scheduledplace and time, pay your fee, then shoot and have fun.


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## Prag Jr (Oct 16, 2008)

jarlicker said:


> People as you already know Archers are an extremelly quirky bunch. No matter what is decided by the majority present at said discussion their are always a very large amount of people that dont like what was just decided.
> 
> We keep throwing all this junk into a pot. The pot just continually get stirred, the heat keeps increasing, until all the tasty stuff just evoporates into the air, We are just left with all the substance in the bottom. We continue to stir and add more heat, then we just end up with mush.
> Then guess what? No body wants it any more.
> ...


I am with you JL. I just want to shoot my bow.


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