# less popular NFAA classes



## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Keith, I am a member of the less popular classes, msfsl. and the group get smaller every year. Most of our group doesn't shoot for awards, couldn't care less, we have sacks full of patches, pins, trophies I just go to enjoy my friends. Some of us still shoot well enough to compete but most just came to be with friends and talk and meet and greet.
The other item you responded to: You can set up classes by scores shot. Back in the old days it was done this way. Your class by your score shot in at least three club or state shoots. Didn't make any difference type of equipment. just average of scores in the spread. A two eighty shot by a AMFS is the same as a two eighty shoot by an AMFL. 
Charlie


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Charlie,

I am just curious. Since the awards are not the main motivator for your shooting in the sport, I have a question. If the NFAA eliminated master senior and went back to only senior division, would it really matter to you?


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

ceebee said:


> Keith, I am a member of the less popular classes, msfsl. and the group get smaller every year. Most of our group doesn't shoot for awards, couldn't care less, we have sacks full of patches, pins, trophies I just go to enjoy my friends. Some of us still shoot well enough to compete but most just came to be with friends and talk and meet and greet.
> The other item you responded to: You can set up classes by scores shot. Back in the old days it was done this way. Your class by your score shot in at least three club or state shoots. Didn't make any difference type of equipment. just average of scores in the spread. A two eighty shot by a AMFS is the same as a two eighty shoot by an AMFL.
> Charlie


I agree, a lot of us do not shoot for awards. But I think that it is kind of silly that you can win a national or state award and be the only one shooting in your class.
I am also concerned about entry fees going up to help pay for all the awards. Here in TX last year the TFAA had to buy 50 State Champion belt buckles for 192 participants. That's one buckle for every 3.8 people!

Keith


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Jeff, It would not matter to me and Yes I will still go. I go to the Vegas shoot about every other year, and they have never had a master senior limited class. I shoot senior division when there. I don't gamble or drink, but I still have a lot of fun. I get to look at all the new equipment, meet old friends make new ones, watch the new hot shooters. Fall in love with every new bow I see.
Charlie


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Cool. Thanks for your response. It is easy to REALLY like all the new "toys".


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Kieth, I thank it's silly to award a first place award in this case. However I have never been a member of any club that didn't. We just ate the cost and went foward. Making money was never the aim of our clubs, unless we had a project in mind, and then we would start having club shoots novelty shoots. donation or whatever until we reached our goal. If we make enough for club insurance, target faces. replace a few 3D targets and butts and upkeep on the range we were good. 
Charlie


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## Robert58 (Oct 5, 2002)

KStover said:


> I agree, a lot of us do not shoot for awards. But I think that it is kind of silly that you can win a national or state award and be the only one shooting in your class.
> I am also concerned about entry fees going up to help pay for all the awards. Here in TX last year the TFAA had to buy 50 State Champion belt buckles for 192 participants. That's one buckle for every 3.8 people!
> 
> Keith


16 of the 50 Belt Buckles went to Cubs, Youths and Young Adults. The Backbone of our sport.

Every person that got a Buckle payed for it and the rest of us payed for the tournament. I don't understand what the big deal is about Awards. Our State treasury gets bigger every year. We are not loosing any Money.

Robert Richardson
4th Place MSMFSL


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## Ogredude43 (Jun 11, 2006)

This is a post right in the thick of things here in NY at the moment. We are not watching our membership grow or our treasure flowing over either. I agree with the above statement that the shooters pay for their awards several times over when the shoots are a weekend long or more by their application fees to shoot and the peripheral fees associated with a long distance weekend from home.

I also agree that the awards could be made less costly and spread further in am attempt to gain more participation.

We have watched participation wane for the last several years and hear several reasons for it but the result is still the same; we have older shooters and younger shooters but the middle ranks are thinning dangerously low.

Any thoughts?


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

*Awards?*

Then how do we get more shooters?
I am one of the solo shooters.. I shoot a recurve in the BARE BOW adult male class. 
I am one of two in the sectional shoot?
IS that my fault? I enter, send my money, and show up. No Less than 2 hour drive to get there, to find out I am The only BB shooter? 
I shoot decent scores and shoot constantly when I am home.. I pay my 
NFAA DUES, I pay my club dues, There are other shooters in the area, why don't they Shoot? 
I think that it is a total problem For the NFAA, to shoot the way I shoot it takes a lot of time, to shoot the PRO division takes a ton of time. We are a hurry and get results society. 
HOW DO WE GET MORE SHOOTERS?


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

Robert58 said:


> 16 of the 50 Belt Buckles went to Cubs, Youths and Young Adults. The Backbone of our sport.
> 
> Every person that got a Buckle payed for it and the rest of us payed for the tournament. I don't understand what the big deal is about Awards. Our State treasury gets bigger every year. We are not loosing any Money.
> 
> ...


Robert your right, giving out the buckles is not a big deal. And who cars if the kids get a lot of trophies. 

I guess, on a personal note, I want more folks to compete against. I love to win, but it does not mean anything to me to only beat 1 or two people. I started back into archery about a year ago after a 22 year layoff. As most of you know 20+ years ago there were a lot more NFAA/target shooters. Most of the classes had numerous people shooting in them and the competition seemed a lot more intense. So the numbers have dropped but the classes remain the same, which dictates less people in each class and less competition. Last years TX state outdoor did not have a single adult finger shooter’s class with more than 3 people in it. Dropping some of the classes or combining them is about the only why to get more into each class, sure improving attendance would help but that’s another issue. As an example, I shoot FSL but I’m willing to swap to BHFSL if it would mean more competition, but to make it work all the FSL shooters would need to convert also. This may not be the answer but the conversations need to start now and hopefully someone will find the answer. Most of you may be happy with the status quo, if that’s the case then I’ll shut up. I strongly believe that the majority should rule. 

I love to meet with old friends at tournaments and enjoy making new ones, but I also love the competition and I miss it.
Competition is what drove me to become the shooter that I am.

I also think that it would be cool to have a few real state/national champions. Say if there was someway to tell who was the best shot, in each age group, with the style of shooting considered into the equation. No I am not saying that the current winners are not real champions. A good example is Bob Gentry’s 544, shooting FSL at last years nationals. To me it’s just as or more impressive as Jesse Bs 560. Yet Gentry’s 544 got little attention. There is also a cub that shoots our indoor league each week that shot a 300 and backed it up with a 299 with fingers! At tournaments he will be the only shooter in his class and he will not get the attention/recognition that he deserves. All the glory is in AMFS, but in reality there are many folks that have just as much talent that chose to shoot in other classes. Guess that I’m a dreamer. I believe that they also deserve some of the glory.

Keith


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

KStover said:


> Robert your right, giving out the buckles is not a big deal. And who cars if the kids get a lot of trophies.
> 
> I guess, on a personal note, I want more folks to compete against. I love to win, but it does not mean anything to me to only beat 1 or two people. I started back into archery about a year ago after a 22 year layoff. As most of you know 20+ years ago there were a lot more NFAA/target shooters. Most of the classes had numerous people shooting in them and the competition seemed a lot more intense. So the numbers have dropped but the classes remain the same, which dictates less people in each class and less competition. Last years TX state outdoor did not have a single adult finger shooter’s class with more than 3 people in it. Dropping some of the classes or combining them is about the only why to get more into each class, sure improving attendance would help but that’s another issue. As an example, I shoot FSL but I’m willing to swap to BHFSL if it would mean more competition, but to make it work all the FSL shooters would need to convert also. This may not be the answer but the conversations need to start now and hopefully someone will find the answer. Most of you may be happy with the status quo, if that’s the case then I’ll shut up. I strongly believe that the majority should rule.
> 
> ...


Keith,

The release classes dominate the sport because a higher score can be shot, and for many that is all they care about. The method is not as important as the result. It really sounds like you have a competetave spirit and long for the days gone by of many finger shooters to shoot against. What does it take to shoot the score Bob Gentry did? In the 40's with fingers? I have a clue, you have a clue, but there are many folks who really do not know just how difficult that accomplishment is. 

With that said, if you really want to compete with lots of competition then FS or BHFS are the most competative by the sheer number of shooters. If that is what you are looking for, then getting a hook and learning to shoot that style will give you a level of competition that is basically always there. I have shot FS and BHFS and BHFSL, and the list goes on. I know that if i would have stuck with one class, I would have excelled much further in archery. It really comes down to what "you" want to do. The classes that exist are the classes that exist. 

Why shoot fingers today, really? I mean there are soo many bows that are built for releases and there are so many more people to compete against. It is a choice, your shooter identity. It may be what you started with, it may be the way I know to do it, it may be I just like it. The recognition in the sport, at least in the NFAA has gone to the hook shooters. It has since the hook was made legal. They shoot the highest score, and for many archers out there, that is all that matters. There is some point of acceptance of that. You can join them, or you can enjoy shooting your personal best in the method of your choosing. 

With hope for positive change,

Jeff


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

dragonheart
I'll swap to a recurve and leave the NFAA/TFAA and shot FITA before I pick up a hook. 


My question to the group would be - Would you rather combine/drop a few finger classes and have more competition or leave it as is? Example BHFSL/FSL one class, say either one could be eliminated. Please respond, I would really like to know your thoughts.


Thanx 
Keith


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

*Finger shooting ?*

So what if they made the finger shooters w/ sights shoot in 1 class, How many adjustments are actually made w/ a sight at the shoots? , and even the fixed pin guys w/ the sights they have now can slide up and down, in and out w/out loosing the tune?

BHTR freestyle limited
fingers 
A sight 
peep
stabilizer ok?

But , what about TRAD/ BareBow 
I shoot a Recurve , but I like to compete against the compound guys, no advantage in my book.
I like the bars, 
Like the elevated rest
Like to string walk a little as an adjustment at different ranges.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Keith,

I understand your commitment to shooting with your fingers. It is how "you' shoot the bow. I think the answer is in the combination of classes. This discussion has been goin on for many years about the NFAA. When you go back in time and look at popularity, in the 1980's BHFSL was the most popular class. That is how most people hunted and that was what much of the NFAA was composed of at that time, bowhunters. Today, many of the bowhunters that used to shoot NFAA shoot 3-D, it is just more suited to there taste for their chosen archery interest. 

BHFSL has very little participation in the last few years. I think it is the hardest way to shoot a bow IMO. Bowhunter class at one time was popular many years ago. Rolling the classes back to the classes that the kids have now, would give you the promotion of the competition and the reduction in awards. FS, FSL, BB, HUNTER, AND PRO. I wonder if it will ever happen? It hasnt so far and this discussion has been going on for years. The IFAA has more classes than the NFAA. I believe that they have fewer divisions (senior adlt). I remember shooting the world and there were different rules for the IFAA and NFAA. Like you can have a bubble or not in BHFS, BHFSL. If the NFAA were to change, I believe there is a fear of loss of membership. I have nothing to back that up, it is just a hunch so could be off base.


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

dragonheart
Our local NFAA reps are trying to change it. Check out item #17 on this NFAA link.

http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/news/75-News_28.pdf

Keith


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## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

What i would like to see is instead of eliminating classes is: Cubs, recurves,and longbows shoot from the cub stake. Then all other fingershooters(FSL,BHFSL,BB and BH shoot with the youth at their stake. And all release shooters from the adult stake.

All scores will be tabulated in just two classes, Men and Women


That way you compete against everyone at the tournament


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

barebow52 said:


> What i would like to see is instead of eliminating classes is: Cubs, recurves,and longbows shoot from the cub stake. Then all other fingershooters(FSL,BHFSL,BB and BH shoot with the youth at their stake. And all release shooters from the adult stake.
> 
> All scores will be tabulated in just two classes, Men and Women
> 
> ...


If you tabulate all scores into just two classes, how would that not eliminate classes?
I no sabe.
Keith


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I shoot barebow NAA and NFAA (with recurve). I am less interested in awards than being able to shoot my class and compete for a personal best. I prefer to have my score reported in the correct class, that way I do not always show up on the bottom of a list of folks shooting with sights. Unfortunately, with the internet we have to recognize that everything is available on line. I would rather show up as a fair barebow shooter than an awful Olympic recurve shooter.


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## KStover (Jan 24, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I shoot barebow NAA and NFAA (with recurve). I am less interested in awards than being able to shoot my class and compete for a personal best. I prefer to have my score reported in the correct class, that way I do not always show up on the bottom of a list of folks shooting with sights. Unfortunately, with the internet we have to recognize that everything is available on line. I would rather show up as a fair barebow shooter than an awful Olympic recurve shooter.


So you would vote to leave it as is, which is OK. 

I believe that the majority should rule, just curious what the majority thinks.

Keith


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

*scores*

I agree with Hank,,
Well stated and how I feel..


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Guys, there is an answer to the classes system. We could go to the NASP style of shooting. Every one, male or female, young or old, shoot the same equipment and style. Same bow, same arrow, same distance. Then you could truly have one champion, but it would take days for for the shoot off. the subject of classes has been around almost as long as I have, and there has been different systems tried, but they all have a few bugs in them. As Kieth suggested, combine some classes. but it not going to change much. In the old days the classes were set by the score you shoot, not method or style. I don't remember the brackets, but every one was classed by the score they shot at club or state shoots or as we called " Registered" shoots and they had to have three registered scores, signed by club personal. You shot against those that shot scores in the same bracket as you, reguardless of equipment. However there were a few problems. If you didn't have three signed scores you shot open class, also there were a few that worked the sandbagger route. Nothing is perfect for all.
Charlie


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## skydog (Sep 20, 2004)

*my side*

Ok just make the decision already just drop finger classes all together we all know that’s what is going to happen. With every passing year us old geezers that shoot fingers become less and less and there are not enough new blood coming in to sustain a solid class. All I ask is that when I show up to your tourney and you post the results is it too much to ask that you put an asterisk by my name to indicate shot with fingers? 
For years I have tried to keep target archery alive here, I would beg people to shoot a 300 league only to be disappointed when only 10 people showed up. I finally gave up.
What I am saying is how long can we carry this “burden” before we get the point that we are extinct? And the only group that can save us is the nfaa & the local clubs by keeping the finger classes open at their shoots. I can’t say how many finger shooters will show up all I can say that 1 will and that’s me.

Bare bow & proud of it!


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## Robert58 (Oct 5, 2002)

skydog said:


> Ok just make the decision already just drop finger classes all together we all know that’s what is going to happen. With every passing year us old geezers that shoot fingers become less and less and there are not enough new blood coming in to sustain a solid class. All I ask is that when I show up to your tourney and you post the results is it too much to ask that you put an asterisk by my name to indicate shot with fingers?
> For years I have tried to keep target archery alive here, I would beg people to shoot a 300 league only to be disappointed when only 10 people showed up. I finally gave up.
> What I am saying is how long can we carry this “burden” before we get the point that we are extinct? And the only group that can save us is the nfaa & the local clubs by keeping the finger classes open at their shoots. I can’t say how many finger shooters will show up all I can say that 1 will and that’s me.
> 
> ...


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## ghostofsherwood (Apr 6, 2005)

I have joined late but i have heard all the arguements.I myself shoot in the adult male BHFSL. and it has pros and cons,i myself do not want these combined classes,I was shooting BHFSL in the FSL class when i was a cub all the way to young adult.needless to say i lost all the time.I would like to see BHFSL in the younger age groups(sorry off topic).
The TFAA and the NFAA my have to do something different if they want to improve the amount of shooters at there tournaments. Archery mag. had an article in it in the june/july issue and it talked about promoting your club.How come no one promotes these two groups on radio,newspapers,and signs.the club in Houston buffalo field archery club used to promote shoots in the local sports newspaper and if i can remember correctly it didnot cost them a whole lot.
if you promot this sport more people will hear about it and we might get more people shooting,including more people shooting in our outdated classes.


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## Ogredude43 (Jun 11, 2006)

Our home club is growing but we have the advantage of a dedicated bunch of people. There are only a few finger shooters but that is not to say that the others do not recognize the differences. We have a bunch that are going to try "fingers" regardless of the class, trad, BHFSL BB or FSL for some of our home shoots. Maybe that is the way to get some new people started by having some days to gain from our experience.


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