# Dowels as arrows?



## sniperjim (Aug 28, 2010)

5/16 will let you hunt every up to Deer and Hogs.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

looked on line at lowes and home depot poplar or aspen is all i found on there? which would be better?


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

IMO...negative…negative…negative...Please! Without first having a very keen working knowledge of wood there would be no way I would support undertaking this approach. My background is decades of experience with wooden arrows and decades spent making a living working with wood, which compels me to give the same answer to anyone who should ask the question…if, for no other reason than the apparent need to ask. Trying this out with a 55# bow only ups the ante…small game or large, your bow is unable to distinguish the difference...nor will it minimize the consequences. 

I’ll not go into writing a chapter, or even an introduction, as to what makes a decent wooden arrow, but let me just state that the average store-bought dowel supply of today simply cannot stand beside what existed many years ago. That said, one might find a few exceptions, especially in the hardwood category, but even at that the supply is not apt to be reliable/consistent…and getting more than a few reasonably matched candidates is virtually out of the question. I have bought unspined shafts of the same diameter a hundred at a time (far more than you’ll find in a lumber yard) and after sorting them by spine and weight the results end up all over the map.

Anyhow, if you still want to go wood, the difference in cost between something that was intended to be made into an arrow and something that wasn’t is well worth it. Also, if you can find someone nearby, who makes a truly good wooden arrow, getting a little assistance would be priceless. Ultimately, wooden arrows are high maintenance...they have to be constantly checked for straightness, straightened, and inspected frequently for any minor defect...and you can take that from someone who's been hospitalized for skipping an inspection. Since then, I break more wooden arrows so that they never get shot again than break from actual shooting. 

If you are otherwise open to suggestion, I would recommend keeping your eyes open on ebay; I see a lot of good arrows, new or used, wood or aluminum, selling dirt cheap or just slipping away. Please, don't view wood as just a means of getting it done "on the cheap." Once you let go of the string there is a missile cruising past your body...hopefully...and hopefully you have some assurance that everything is as safe as can be.

Lastly, the challenge with small game is having a much smaller target; not the animal itself, but exactly what it takes to end the chase, i.e. head shot, boileroom...anything else and the chase is on (not the highlight of my day to be chasing my lunch through the woods). IT IS CRITICAL that the arrow HAS TO BE a performer. 

Good Luck and Happy Hunting. Rick.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

rickstix said:


> IMO...negative…negative…negative...Please! Without first having a very keen working knowledge of wood there would be no way I would support undertaking this approach. My background is decades of experience with wooden arrows and decades spent making a living working with wood, which compels me to give the same answer to anyone who should ask the question…if, for no other reason than the apparent need to ask. Trying this out with a 55# bow only ups the ante…small game or large, your bow is unable to distinguish the difference...nor will it minimize the consequences.
> 
> I’ll not go into writing a chapter, or even an introduction, as to what makes a decent wooden arrow, but let me just state that the average store-bought dowel supply of today simply cannot stand beside what existed many years ago. That said, one might find a few exceptions, especially in the hardwood category, but even at that the supply is not apt to be reliable/consistent…and getting more than a few reasonably matched candidates is virtually out of the question. I have bought unspined shafts of the same diameter a hundred at a time (far more than you’ll find in a lumber yard) and after sorting them by spine and weight the results end up all over the map.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I'm following you here, but I've a friend who introduced me to Ramin wood dowels not long ago and pointed out several things to me... One is that Ramin at 3/8" spines out at 85# plus. You're right about the wood not being consistent, but he showed me that if you can bend the dowel without it breaking, it spined. He sanded his dowels to "fit" a particular shaft need (55# sand it down to maybe 5/16ths or whatever... but he had a spine tester for the arrows. $100 for a box of arrows is wayyyyy better than anything available at the market....

So assuming you throw away even half your dowels, you're ahead with Ramin. As for straightening, he showed me a straightener he made that essentially was a big wood hook... I use the handle of a large crescent wrench... and both work amazingly well. After what I've seen, I'm up for Ramin as an arrow wood. I use ash, cedar, and other woods as well when I can get them, but I'm certainly up for using and experimenting with Ramin as well.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

good luck with non spined arrows. Send us the photo of a piece of wood in your arm. They may break due to not having the spine to recover from the push of the bow string.

I purchased a full 6 doz raw shaft wood cedar for less than a 100 dollars from someone on AT. These were spined arrows for my 50 lb martin bow.


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## GoatHammer (Nov 9, 2010)

sweet old bill said:


> good luck with non spined arrows. Send us the photo of a piece of wood in your arm. They may break due to not having the spine to recover from the push of the bow string.
> 
> I purchased a full 6 doz raw shaft wood cedar for less than a 100 dollars from someone on AT. These were spined arrows for my 50 lb martin bow.


LMAO :darkbeer:


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

As long as you can ensure the spine, you might be able to get some use out of them. But keep a close eye on them.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Spined or not, REALLY watch for grain run-off's anywhere near the middle of the shaft...No grain run-off's would be ideal, but as long as it's close to the end of the shafts, it MIGHT be O.K., or try to trim as much off as possible......Jim


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Sounds penny-wise and pound-foolish to me.
Besides the possibility of an accident, you are introducing another uncontrolled factor to your arrow fllight, as your arrows will not be alike.
Good luck with that!
I'll stick with my precision-made Eastons, thank you!


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

If you are going to use store-grade wood dowels for arrows on a heavy draw-weight bow, also purchase one of these...










and make sure you wear the gloves to avoid this....


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I really like how everyone and their uncle is terrified about using dowels. Yes, you have to be careful in your selection. But using dowels for arrows is not a big deal.

First of all, use a hardwood. Rattus mentioned Ramin, which is around .55 specifc gravity. Birch works a lot like Ramin in terms of spine and weight, but has more run offs. If you're buying dowels either buy lots, or hand pick them from a store. Ash, maple, HICKORY, and white oak all work great. Hickory is the toughest natural shaft out there, and is tougher than even some aluminum or cheaper carbons too.

Most hardwood dowels will be around 70-90# at 3/8", and so around 40-50# at 5/16". Tapering and sanding will reduce the spine on 3/8" dowels slightly, but not a great deal. A 5/16" hickory or white oak arrow with straight grain will spine heavier than most others, going up to 60# or so. Avoid red oak, it's an especially weak arrow. Must be the porus nature, it never worked well for me.

Expect half of your dowels to be either garbage or spine/weight wrong. No dowel with serious grain run off should be used. They'll break easily, sometimes when firing the arrow, and will never be consistent or accurate. After you've sorted out all the straight grained arrows, go ahead and straighten them using a candle or heat source. I've done alot by hand, but harder woods are such a pin in the kiester about it that I just gave up. More because I'm lazy than because it doesn't work.

Once straightened and cooled spine them and sort into groups. Then, if you're looking for serious accuracy or big game hunting, sort out the serious weight variations. A 50 gr difference is usual.

Once sorted like this I usually go ahead and taper them. Really straight grained arrows can be tapered with a sharp hand plane set to take fine shavings, but I made a jig using sandpaper on thin slats screwed to the top of a board. An arrow is chucked up in a power drill and sanded into a taper. It tapers most of the length from 23/64" down to 5/16". Most hardwood arrows are really heavy and this helps get acceptable FOC with normal weight points (125-200 gr).

At this point the arrows are sanded and burnished, then finished out and fletched into arrows. You'll have a good bit of variation between your arrows, but depending on your wood selection and the distances you like to shoot this may or may not be a great way to make arrows. I've used these out of bows up to 90# and shot them into trees and rocks and all that good stuff. They break, but at $0.50 an arrow it's not a big deal.

And for the record, I'd take a well made dowel arrow over any POC arrow. I hate POC with a passion. If you're goingt o spend an arm and a leg on arrows I don't see why you wouldn't just get aluminums or carbons. To each their own however, and that should include dowel arrows.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Keg:

You have greatly surpassed what most were responding to in the negative; a person who apparently is not that familiar with arrow woods and building. and simply walking into Lowes or Home Depot and snatching some wood dowels from the box, not knowing what type of wood he may be purchasing, the quality of the dowel, are they from the same run, have they been inspected and culled, etc,; and then expecting him to know how to properly finish the shaft, index the grain to the riser, and so on.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

WindWalker said:


> Keg:
> 
> You have greatly surpassed what most were responding to in the negative; a person who apparently is not that familiar with arrow woods and building. and simply walking into Lowes or Home Depot and snatching some wood dowels from the box, not knowing what type of wood he may be purchasing, the quality of the dowel, are they from the same run, have they been inspected and culled, etc,; and then expecting him to know how to properly finish the shaft, index the grain to the riser, and so on.


Ahh, my apologies. I clearly misunderstood what the objection was. I thought it was to dowel arrows in general, rather than the process.


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## archer756 (Aug 10, 2009)

I know of a great hospital that is wonderful on removing lumber yard shafts from person!


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Ahh…this is great guys. Thanks for making my points. You need an understanding of wood and you need to apply that understanding to each shaft. Also, the common scenario in typical lumber yard/hardware store/hobby shops is that there is rarely enough choices in any given size for me to considered them much of a worthwhile source (…never mind the disturbingly high percentage I’ve broken on the spot and put back in the box).

I certainly have no objections to what type of wood anyone chooses. I shoot several myself and usually have a few bundles that still have the bark on them…can’t get the wood any cheaper than that but they are a long way from successfully becoming arrows.

It’s not the first time the question has come up from someone who is unfamiliar with what they are going to find at such sources and the possibilities, good or bad. That, alone, starts painting a picture of someone in need of a bit more hands-on expertise/experience than I am presently able to provide, in this format…plus, it can be expected that there’s more than one curious reader following along to be considered.

That any magazine just throws it out there as “buy a dowel shoot small game” harbors on the irresponsible, IMO. Yup, great gig to fashion an arrow and make meat…a mind-blowing concept from its first inception and one that places maximum value at each end of the equation; not to be minimized, IMO. Personally, the only thing that will ultimately make one of my arrows “small game” is the business end. Once again, the taking of “small game” does not imply that there is an acceptable level of excuses…it warrants GREATER accuracy and a high level of confidence in your equipment.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Keep shootin’. Rick.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

For pure safety's sake, all "traditional" shooters should be using carbon or aluminum. I mean, sourcing material from nature, or even a shortcut to the lumber yard, is just too dangerous. I mean, if it has not been inspected, culled, and sorted by someone in a factory uniform and certified as safe for bows, it can't be safe??? Of course, as Kegan demonstrates, there are those who choose the more traditional aspect of the hobby, and even pre-sorted, pre-conditioned shafts don't suit him as well as what he can produce. Some with the itch and starting their learning curve come here and ask first, maybe even seeking the same path of knowledge, which Kegan pointed to very well on the subject. 

I remember the first MTO POC arrows I ordered from 3-Rivers. First one I pulled from the box, flexed slightly, and snapped it into two pieces. That one must have missed Quality Control Center.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> For pure safety's sake, all "traditional" shooters should be using carbon or aluminum. I mean, sourcing material from nature, or even a shortcut to the lumber yard, is just too dangerous. I mean, if it has not been inspected, culled, and sorted by someone in a factory uniform and certified as safe for bows, it can't be safe??? Of course, as Kegan demonstrates, there are those who choose the more traditional aspect of the hobby, and even pre-sorted, pre-conditioned shafts don't suit him as well as what he can produce. Some with the itch and starting their learning curve come here and ask first, maybe even seeking the same path of knowledge, which Kegan pointed to very well on the subject.
> 
> I remember the first MTO POC arrows I ordered from 3-Rivers. First one I pulled from the box, flexed slightly, and snapped it into two pieces. That one must have missed Quality Control Center.


I love the mentality here. Carbon must be the only arrow you all are satisfied with... maybe something virtual even... that's safe I'm sure.

I always thought, since our education system here produces carpenters that have to go back to school to learn how to measure before joining the trade unions here, that everywhere else folks would want to learn about what they are doing before they done did it. I mean, even I read everything I could about arrow building and then there was no internet... how did I do it.... dang.... I spent literally thousands of dollars on learning. I've had my share of potential catastrophe's too.... and not only with arrows, bows as well. 

Mark Victor Hansen was want to say, A S K to G E T. Life's words.... Chicken Soup for the Soul. You learn by asking... and experimentation is a form of asking too, is it not... How does this work.... will *this* work?

As for Ramin, I'm convinced that the process that I exampled is as valid as ordering anything from 3 rivers or Rose City or anywhere else for that matter. And you all here seem to not read before making pronouncement... well... so be it.

For my money.... I'm going to be experimenting with Ramin. Tools? SPINE TESTER.... Tools? Straightener. Tools, sand paper and tapering jig. I explained what this gentleman did to initially "spine" his dowels.... he bent them and they broke if weak... if they didn't he spined them. As for all the technical stuff like runout, I have no idea what you're talking about... how did I not have an arrow in my wrist.... dang that's scary... 

As for Lowes, I don't know anything about them nor would I be ordering or buying from them anyway.... I'd order the dowel from the maker.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

rattus58....Re Msg #18

English is the preferred language spoken (written) here. :wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

crispy7229 said:


> I have heard of this before but read it in ky outdoors magzine bout using dowels as small game arrows. I was wondering what exactly would I have to have for a 55# recurve 125 grain tips wanting them bout 29-30 inches long. Can you guys help? Would lowes have them, Home depot? Dia.?


SCARY! Makes me wonder how many people will get hurt using an article like that as a reason to go el sheapo.
No that such things cannot be done. DIY is one thing. Serious lack of good sense is another. I will stick with something designed,tested and manufactured by people who know what they are doing using proven materials. I hate those ugly pictures.Ouch!!!!


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

This is one of those questions thats best answered yes and no. Yes you can use some wood dowels for arrow shafts. And; no you can't use them until you know why you can, and well enough to answer your own question.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Eldermike said:


> This is one of those questions thats best answered yes and no. Yes you can use some wood dowels for arrow shafts. And; no you can't use them until you know why you can, and well enough to answer your own question.


I would have to ask, and I didn't read the article in question, so I don't know what was suggested, recommended, nor offered as a meaningful alternative, but I would pose this as a question to ANYONE.... When you buy an arrow shaft, what is the first thing one would do to assure yourself that you are using the right arrow? Wouldn't one want to "spine" that arrow? How did anyone ever get to shoot a cane arrow? How did anyone ever get to take a branch and shave it down to a roundish arrowshaft and shoot it with a stone point? How did.... Wood arrows are my only source of shafting anymore and I've learned that you have to spend a bit of time in learning how to make wood shafting perform properly. But a wood shaft is a wood shaft, and spine is determined physically with wood. In my estimation, spine is not much different than "tiller" in process and if you're going to do it at all, you need to do it right.

That being said, Ramin, the doweling I will in fact be experimenting with now, has proven to be with a friend of mine, an adequate shafting material that he uses. Yes, a good number are unsatisfactory, but those are determined immediately in his case by bending the arrow with both hands. Those that break, are trashed, those that don't are spined. Even at 50% loss ratio, the cost is half what it costs me from Rose City for Cedar and a third what it costs me for Ash.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

I find this strange - you can buy 100 Surewood shafts spined within 5 grains (50-55 or 55-60) 23/64th diameter for 150 bucks - I don't think this is a huge expense for shafting material. If your option is 3/8 ramin dowles from home depot, you would rather pay 89 cents (I just looked it up) than $1.50 and throw half of the dowles out - your loosing money. I will put 100 of my Surewood shafts up against 500 3/8" dowles any time. This may be an avenue to supply your 4 year old a small handful of shafts until he's older but would be silly (IMHO) to use them on adult equipment. Don't believe everything you read, they need to have articles in the magazines you read, maybe that month there was a shortage LOL


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

rraming said:


> I find this strange - you can buy 100 Surewood shafts spined within 5 grains (50-55 or 55-60) 23/64th diameter for 150 bucks - I don't think this is a huge expense for shafting material. If your option is 3/8 ramin dowles from home depot, you would rather pay 89 cents (I just looked it up) than $1.50 and throw half of the dowles out - your loosing money. I will put 100 of my Surewood shafts up against 500 3/8" dowles any time. This may be an avenue to supply your 4 year old a small handful of shafts until he's older but would be silly (IMHO) to use them on adult equipment. Don't believe everything you read, they need to have articles in the magazines you read, maybe that month there was a shortage LOL


My friend bought 600 shafts for $150. http://www.rosecityarchery.com/POC_Shafts.htm $242 without the cost of shipping to Hawaii.... So... Say again?

http://www.americanwoodcrafterssupply.com/wooden-products/dowels.htm#dowels 

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

rraming said:


> I find this strange - you can buy 100 Surewood shafts spined within 5 grains (50-55 or 55-60) 23/64th diameter for 150 bucks - I don't think this is a huge expense for shafting material. If your option is 3/8 ramin dowles from home depot, you would rather pay 89 cents (I just looked it up) than $1.50 and throw half of the dowles out - your loosing money. I will put 100 of my Surewood shafts up against 500 3/8" dowles any time. This may be an avenue to supply your 4 year old a small handful of shafts until he's older but would be silly (IMHO) to use them on adult equipment. Don't believe everything you read, they need to have articles in the magazines you read, maybe that month there was a shortage LOL


http://surewoodshafts.com/prices.html


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## bearauto11 (Apr 7, 2010)

rraming said:


> I find this strange - you can buy 100 Surewood shafts spined within 5 grains (50-55 or 55-60) 23/64th diameter for 150 bucks


Are these the Mill run Shafts here? http://surewoodshafts.com/prices.html
Thanks,
--Tom


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

bearauto11 said:


> Are these the Mill run Shafts here? http://surewoodshafts.com/prices.html
> Thanks,
> --Tom


The spined within 5# were a lot more expensive than $1.50 when I looked....


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

Well tons of opinions here but WHO HAS DONE THIS SUCCEED OR FAIL???. I am tryin to be a bit cheap but I work full time ,go to college full time and have 2 kids so money is kind of an issue on my end. I know there was a safety factor that is wy I ask it is feasible but I have had 2.5 inches of carbon removed from my wrist in the past so there is that factor in any arrow IMHO. I am not looking to deer hunt just wanting to use for rabbits and am sure I will break a few and lose them in the brush.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

I have a 59# longbow I am willing to trade for some new arrows if anyone wants to help. need 29-30" for 55# recurve.


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

http://surewoodshafts.com/overstock.html

he has them listed under "Bargain" overstock (think that means no one buy them) bought 100 last winter - they are a nice shaft


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## ripforce (Feb 15, 2010)

Check out Twig Archery he always has deals or closeouts on shafts! My son has bought a lot of Ramin shafts from him with good results!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

PM sent.


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Doesn't the whole issue first have to deal with what the purpose of the arrow is? I use my 3Rivers arrows for competition shooting, field and target. But for fun things, such as SCA shooting, I use my home made poplar dowel arrows ( and yes, half were junk, and I gave them to the cross bow guys who could use them at the shorter lengths) however, the bow is either my old Pearson at 66" and a pull of 25#and the other is 38#. I sure would not use them on my 45# bow. So the orginal issue was, I thought, using cheaper store brought dowels knowing that they would be shot at bunnies, and knowing that a miss will probably break the shaft, so why not break a cheapie rather than a expensive one. I can see using the dowel for that reason, but I wouldn't be using a heavy bow.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I think the big thing here, and definately where I first misunderstood, is that there's obviously a difference.

If you go to the hardware stoe and grab some dowels for arrows, no it won't work.

If you get a bunch of dowels and sort/grade/spine them like you would normal wooden arrows, yes they will. However the amount of time will make them valuable, at least if you value your time and care.

The only real middle ground would be simply to select straight grained hardwood dowels of sufficient stiffness and make them into fluflus. I've done this before with the "left overs". It worked fine for me out of bows up to 80# but I quit because I was still too cheap to waste fluflu feathers shooting up into trees. As soon as you start putting time into them they become no less valuable than any other shafting, but aren't really as safe or reliable until you do.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

crispy7229 said:


> Well tons of opinions here but WHO HAS DONE THIS SUCCEED OR FAIL???. I am tryin to be a bit cheap but I work full time ,go to college full time and have 2 kids so money is kind of an issue on my end. I know there was a safety factor that is wy I ask it is feasible but I have had 2.5 inches of carbon removed from my wrist in the past so there is that factor in any arrow IMHO. I am not looking to deer hunt just wanting to use for rabbits and am sure I will break a few and lose them in the brush.



I have not and never will. I value my hands and arms too much to endanger them in that way. If you have had an arrow stuck in your arm before I would have thought you would not either. 
Everyone understands trying to be economical,I do the same,but won't sacrifice safety for it. Rather not shoot at all. 
I would rather have 3 aluminum arrows with judo points and flu flu fletching(big natural turkey feathers) than 1000 questionable woodies. At 30"long from a 59lb bow,wow,maybe you should watch some more slow motion archery shots and observe the arrow very closely. 
BTW the arrow does'nt care if you are shooting at a 'bunny' or an elephant. It's about arrow length and bow weight. If it is too weak or any defects it will break. Then YOU really pay the price.
Maybe you're just tough.:noidea:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I have not and never will. I value my hands and arms too much to endanger them in that way. If you have had an arrow stuck in your arm before I would have thought you would not either.
> Everyone understands trying to be economical,I do the same,but won't sacrifice safety for it. Rather not shoot at all.
> I would rather have 3 aluminum arrows with judo points and flu flu fletching(big natural turkey feathers) than 1000 questionable woodies. At 30"long from a 59lb bow,wow,maybe you should watch some more slow motion archery shots and observe the arrow very closely.
> BTW the arrow does'nt care if you are shooting at a 'bunny' or an elephant. It's about arrow length and bow weight. If it is too weak or any defects it will break. Then YOU really pay the price.
> Maybe you're just tough.:noidea:


You're becoming hysterical. Wood arrows have been around for quite a number of years now, and although I don't have one available myself, I've got it on good authority that the american indian had a sophisticated spine system and chart for their wood or cane arrows. If them primitives were capable, I'm amused by your abhorrence of a traditional arrow....


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

I love how I ask a simple question"Is this possible?" Now it comes down to I'm gonna die i'm and idiot for thinking bout it.blah blah blah. If you haven't done it then you can't answer my question thanks for your concern but as rattus stated woodies been around for many many years.I see no more possiblity for injury that I do with carbon, I been on that end when I had my wheels. I knew there would be some work involved in find a dowel that could work but i cannot afford to go drop 150 + bucks on shafts and componens.UHHHHHHH I'll stop now.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

crispy7229 said:


> I love how I ask a simple question"Is this possible?" Now it comes down to I'm gonna die i'm and idiot for thinking bout it.blah blah blah. If you haven't done it then you can't answer my question thanks for your concern but as rattus stated woodies been around for many many years.I see no more possiblity for injury that I do with carbon, I been on that end when I had my wheels. I knew there would be some work involved in find a dowel that could work but i cannot afford to go drop 150 + bucks on shafts and componens.UHHHHHHH I'll stop now.


Crispy, there will always be the "you'll put your eye out" club around. As for the wood dowels at Home Depot, they are mostly aspen. As for aspen for arrows, here is from some history on arrows: _"By documentary evidence, the most common wood for war arrows seems to have *aspen* (Populus tremula). Indeed, a statute of 1419 reserves aspen solely for arrows." _ Other documentaries state that aspen, by the King's decree, was to be solely used for arrows and could not be wasted on other uses. I assume 3-Rivers wasn't around then to supply them with safer arrow materials.

So, it's not that the materials are insufficient. It gets down to others assuming you don't have the common sense to _not_ shoot too thin and too light a material for a given bow weight and for safety's sake. That should apply whether you shoot carbon, wood, or aluminum, though. 

I say, if you are into traditional archery, and have a good common sense, there is no reason you have to shop arrow shafts from any archery shop. A wood shaft is a wood shaft and a wood arrow is made from a wood shaft. Use common sense and you can source your arrow shafts from trees, from river banks, from Big Box lumber yards, or from someone who has prepared them ahead of time. DIY is kinda the whole point of "traditional" for some folks. For others, DIY is OK to a point.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

Thank you sanford. I have read, researched, and studied more than the average person would. My wife will tell you when I get into something I tend to over do it. Was the same when I shot competition compund. I guess some people just asssume that since I post a question on here I lack the general knowledge involved to progress with my intentions. I was just wanting to know who had tried this and if it was worth trying. I had full intention on over spining the woodies to start and working them down slowly( sanding ect.) to find what would work.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> At 30"long from a 59lb bow,wow,maybe you should watch some more slow motion archery shots and observe the arrow very closely..:noidea:


I am shooting a 55# 70's model Kodiak hunter. I was offering the 59# longbow as trade for arrows.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

crispy7229 said:


> I have heard of this before but read it in ky outdoors magzine bout using dowels as small game arrows. I was wondering what exactly would I have to have for a 55# recurve 125 grain tips wanting them bout 29-30 inches long. Can you guys help? Would lowes have them, Home depot? Dia.?


I have shown the first post to highlight the fact that it does not exactly appear to be made by an expert wood arrow builder. In fact,more like someone who knows nothing about wood arrows and wants to buy cheap at a building supply store and go shooting. That is where the 'bad idea' comes in.

I don't remember saying that wood arrows in general are bad. Yes,I do seem to recall that wood was used for centuries before the other, better materials existed. I also have no way to know how many injuries took place way back when.

I am glad to learn,by following this thread,that you do in fact know what you are doing with this and plan to do it properly. Have fun!!!!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I have shown the first post to highlight the fact that it does not exactly appear to be made by an expert wood arrow builder. In fact,more like someone who knows nothing about wood arrows and wants to buy cheap at a building supply store and go shooting. That is where the 'bad idea' comes in.
> 
> I don't remember saying that wood arrows in general are bad. Yes,I do seem to recall that wood was used for centuries before the other, better materials existed. I also have no way to know how many injuries took place way back when.
> 
> I am glad to learn,by following this thread,that you do in fact know what you are doing with this and plan to do it properly. Have fun!!!!


If you were to take a dowel and had a penchant to make an arrow out of it, and heretofore had no experience with wood arrows, what would be your first act in your endeavor of learning what to do?

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm convinced carbon arrows are 100% more dangerous than any wooden arrow. Wooden _arrow_, not just any stick of course. A wooden lathe devoid of grain run offs or knots may fly wide of the mark if it's too weak, but it won't explode on you unless you're seriously pushing the common sense limit, like shooting a 1/4" willow dowel from a 60# bow. 

If wooden or primitive arrows were so dangerous, pimritive cultures wouldn't have risked killing a capable hunting by jamming a stick through his hand. Especially with no Neosporin!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> I'm convinced carbon arrows are 100% more dangerous than any wooden arrow. Wooden _arrow_, not just any stick of course. A wooden lathe devoid of grain run offs or knots may fly wide of the mark if it's too weak, but it won't explode on you unless you're seriously pushing the common sense limit, like shooting a 1/4" willow dowel from a 60# bow.
> 
> If wooden or primitive arrows were so dangerous, pimritive cultures wouldn't have risked killing a capable hunting by jamming a stick through his hand. *Especially with no Neosporin*!


:grin:


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

Glad to notice that some of you guys understand that I am using this as an educational purpose.Thanks Guys


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

crispy7229 said:


> Glad to notice that some of you guys understand that I am using this as an educational purpose.Thanks Guys


:thumbs_up


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Glad to notice that some of you guys understand that I am using this as an educational purpose.Thanks Guys


For safety purposes I would include all opinions as educational rather than some.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> For safety purposes I would include all opinions as educational rather than some.


How is fear mongering educational?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _How is fear mongering educational?_


Fear mongering? Appears you have a reckless attitude regarding facts and safety.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

I don't see it as a reckless attitude but installing fear in someone is not helpful.I understand I needed to be aware of the possible negative factors involved but lets say I was a newbie by installing fear in this it might has went as far as for me to lay it down entirely. There are dangers involved with any shooting sport, well anything in life if you wanna look at it that way and I may be adding just another varible to the equation but as anyone involved in are sport the possiblity is always there for injury. But there are ways ( starting large and wrking down the shaft dia. slowly) such as doing this( using dowels) to way it in your favor and do it safely.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Fear mongering? Appears you have a reckless attitude regarding facts and safety.


Really? How so? Maybe you'd care to actually elucidate on your comment here instead of just making assertions... 

On the other hand, to have folks adamantly say that dowels or wood arrows are dangerous..... and no no no.... is absolutely fear mongering. Let me ask you a germane question, as opposed to your unqualified charge of recklessness..... I have a 75 pound recurve at 28" and I have an over 30" draw length.... what arrow do YOU recommend?


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> . I have a 75 pound recurve at 28" and I have an over 30" draw length.... what arrow do YOU recommend?


:set1_thinking: .............landscape timbers lol


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> to have folks adamantly say that dowels or wood arrows are dangerous.....


I do believe that the core of the messages have been that caution should be the rule. As for fear; fear promotes caution.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

crispy7229 said:


> :set1_thinking: .............landscape timbers lol


Hahahaha..... :grin: Pretty much.... but the point to Windwalker, who I notice didn't answer the question, is that most would go to a spine chart of some sort, whether a newbie or not and when it came to wood arrows, to have them spined or batched with a home made spine tester, some of which can be made for about $4.00, the one I've got the pieces for with a dial indicator, less than $30.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> I do believe that the core of the messages have been that caution should be the rule. As for fear; fear promotes caution.


Fear promotes no such thing. One needs to respect ones equipment. As for caution, that is a life event.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> Really? How so? Maybe you'd care to actually elucidate on your comment here instead of just making assertions...
> 
> On the other hand, to have folks adamantly say that dowels or wood arrows are dangerous..... and no no no.... is absolutely fear mongering. Let me ask you a germane question, as opposed to your unqualified charge of recklessness..... I have a 75 pound recurve at 28" and I have an over 30" draw length.... what arrow do YOU recommend?


I'll answer the question. 2117 175gr point.:icon_1_lol:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> I do believe that the core of the messages have been that caution should be the rule. As for fear; fear promotes caution.


Yep.Looks like the op still did not read his first post,which does'nt exactly indicate lots of experience with wood arrows.And that's why others were promoting some caution in that area. Oh well,live and learn.:walk:


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

I don't think being made aware of the danger of going to the local hobby store or Lowe's and trying to make arrows out of the inferior dowel wood found there is "promoting fear". If you know what you are doing (or have a teacher or book to learn the technique) and buy quality wood shafts and the other equipment you need, then have at it! Whether you save any money for a limited number of arrows seems questionable to me, and that seemed to be the major goal of the original poster, not the challenge (fun) of learning a new skill.

But to buy cheap dowels and NOT know what you are doing is, IMHO, potentially dangerous and quite possibly a waste of money that could go toward a quality set of arrows that would fly correctly enough to hit those small targets he wanted to hunt.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

IAIS604 said:


> I don't think being made aware of the danger of going to the local hobby store or Lowe's and trying to make arrows out of the inferior dowel wood found there is "promoting fear". If you know what you are doing (or have a teacher or book to learn the technique) and buy quality wood shafts and the other equipment you need, then have at it! Whether you save any money for a limited number of arrows seems questionable to me, and that seemed to be the major goal of the original poster, not the challenge (fun) of learning a new skill.
> 
> But to buy cheap dowels and NOT know what you are doing is, IMHO, potentially dangerous and quite possibly a waste of money that could go toward a quality set of arrows that would fly correctly enough to hit those small targets he wanted to hunt.





crispy7229 said:


> I have heard of this before but read it in ky outdoors magzine bout using dowels as small game arrows. I was wondering what exactly would I have to have for a 55# recurve 125 grain tips wanting them bout 29-30 inches long. Can you guys help? Would lowes have them, Home depot? Dia.?


Here is the original post. Can you help? What exactly would I have to do for a 55# recurve with 125 grain tips....

What would you do? I would go through the steps I and others have suggested. Wood is wood... you need to go through the same process whether using a dowel, a guava branch, rose branch, or shaft. His question should be *read*, I think before one goes into hysteria.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I'll answer the question. 2117 175gr point.:icon_1_lol:


Remind me to *always question* your recommendations for me in the future... :grin:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Wood is wood..._


 :mg:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> :mg:


You look startled.... is this a revelation? :grin:


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Revelation? No. 
Miss-leading for a new arrow builder? Quite possibly!
If "wood is wood", why buy your Ramin shafts? 
I'm sure Hobby Lobby has some cheap pine ones ..... 

BTW, you have a strange concept of "hysteria". 
If you read my post, it just said to learn what to do before going off half-cocked.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

IAIS604 said:


> Revelation? No.
> Miss-leading for a new arrow builder? Quite possibly!
> If "wood is wood", why buy your Ramin shafts?
> I'm sure Hobby Lobby has some cheap pine ones .....
> ...


Ok.... so what is misleading? Why would a rosebush branch make an acceptable arrowshaft? Why would a cane stalk? Are you saying you cannot make an arrow from pine? Who would think that anyone making their own arrows wouldn't look into it first? You? Did you read the gentlemans first post?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> Remind me to *always question* your recommendations for me in the future... :grin:


You probably won't be getting any recommendations from me. Remember,live and learn? Well I've learned quite a bit from this thread. Learned that some people will argue till they are blue in the face without ever really reading the original post,or maybe just ignoring what it says and does not say.

Maybe you would have liked this better. OH YEAH, those things make perfect cheap arrows. Just run on down and grab a hand full,make some arrows and go shoot some rabbits. Oh,don't worry,it aint gonna break,trust me.

No,that sounds a little rediculous does'nt it?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> You probably won't be getting any recommendations from me. Remember,live and learn? Well I've learned quite a bit from this thread. Learned that some people will argue till they are blue in the face without ever really reading the original post,or maybe just ignoring what it says and does not say.
> 
> Maybe you would have liked this better. OH YEAH, those things make perfect cheap arrows. Just run on down and grab a hand full,make some arrows and go shoot some rabbits. Oh,don't worry,it aint gonna break,trust me.
> 
> No,that sounds a little rediculous does'nt it?


Cost? Oh I don't know, it could be a factor. Utility? Curiosity? Why do people try things? 

How many arrows do you break every year? How many do you lose on hunt? It is almost a badge of honor to me to shoot until I break something... and I carry 4 blunts on every hunt... usually coming home with only one intact... sometimes none.

How many woods can you make arrows from? How do you know? If a spagetti string spined out at 70 pounds would you shoot it? No? Why not? Point is, I'll look at anything that will spine, and I'm of the impression that most who make their own arrows would as well. Am I wrong here?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> Cost? Oh I don't know, it could be a factor. Utility? Curiosity? Why do people try things?
> 
> How many arrows do you break every year? How many do you lose on hunt? It is almost a badge of honor to me to shoot until I break something... and I carry 4 blunts on every hunt... usually coming home with only one intact... sometimes none.
> 
> How many woods can you make arrows from? How do you know? If a spagetti string spined out at 70 pounds would you shoot it? No? Why not? Point is, I'll look at anything that will spine, and I'm of the impression that most who make their own arrows would as well. Am I wrong here?


I rest my case.:walk:


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

Well thanks rattus for the help. Keagan is actually sending some shafts my way to play with. AGAIN to everyone if you have not tried or have some experience in tryin to help someone with there post ask before assuming gentlemen it is rather confusing on our end when tryin to make sense of all the nonsense.


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

FG - I agree - "The man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

Josh - good luck with the arrows - glad Kegan is helping out.

I'm off this thread.


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## max hunter (Dec 19, 2008)

Why dont you just buy wooden arrows from Three rivers archery. Lots cheaper than a
hospital visit.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

max hunter said:


> Why dont you just buy wooden arrows from Three rivers archery. Lots cheaper than a
> hospital visit.


Love it.... you guys just can't stand to not FEAR MONGER.... can you....


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Crispy yes it can be done. I tried it. I'll accept that you have some degree of intelligence and caution, and have an IQ that can be measured using a positive number. No problem there. Lets also accept that you have a spine tester, and a grain scale. When I tried the return rate on the amount of necesssary to get a dozen usable arrows was really dismal. I understand that $ is tight, but if you place ANY value on your time, then dowels from the hardware store is probably a losing proposition. Even thoug they may be for small game, what you are considering is still hunting none the less. I really don't think you want to be flinging any ol' piece of junk. In order to hit that silly wabbit you will wind up putting in all that necessary time and effort to build a decent arrow.
Here's a question for you, have you ever built ANY sort of wood arrow, even from quality shafting that was purposefully selected to become arrows? Consider this. When I build woodies from quality, purpose intended shafting, I average a little over 1 hour per arrow by the time I'm done with a dozen. I have set myself some rather exacting standards. When I tried bulk dowels, that time pretty much tripled, but then again it also kind of went infinite as I never was able to get a full dozen finished to my standards. 
If you're serious about pursuing wood arrows then any money spent on tools and supplies will not be a waste. So as painful as it may be to the wallet, I suggest that the first woodies you build should be built using quality arrow shafting. You'll learn a lot, begin to develop your technique and various arrow building protocaols while still having a high likelihood of finishing with some arrows that can actually be used and will probably be accurate enough to actually hit what you're aimimg at.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

I love how people continue to post when it is the same questions that have been answered previously. They just jump straight to the last page and think they understand the conversation. I hold no grudge against anyone I enjoy a good debate. And for the most part I have seen just that and it was also informative.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

crispy7229 said:


> Well thanks rattus for the help. Keagan is actually sending some shafts my way to play with. AGAIN to everyone if you have not tried or have some experience in tryin to help someone with there post ask before assuming gentlemen it is rather confusing on our end when tryin to make sense of all the nonsense.


You were correct. There is plenty out there in traditional and primitive archery on the subject. Here's a good tutorial on dowel prep: 
http://www.stickbow.com/FEATURES/ARROWMAKING/straightening.cfm


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks Bender. very helpful


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

crispy7229 said:


> Thanks Bender. very helpful


From the economical standpoint, I could not agree more. A straighter and smoother finished product is worth a few pennies more for me. Consitency in weight and spine also being the goal there. Now, if I were to be shafting at a more base level of stone heads and self nocking, consistency on shafting might not be as much the issue.


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## Nam Nguyen (Jan 29, 2011)

I love my dowel arrows. They shoot fine and are durable. Some poplar some maybe ramin...not sure what wood. But grain is the most important factor.

There is not much danger with wood arrows. People have been using them for thousands of years. A dowel is just wood.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Nam Nguyen said:


> A dowel is just wood.


That may be. However what some of us are getting at is that an ARROW is not JUST wood.
Come on guys. Think about it. How many greats, in any sport, got to BE great by half assing it?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bender said:


> That may be. However what some of us are getting at is that an ARROW is not JUST wood.
> Come on guys. Think about it. How many greats, in any sport, got to BE great by half assing it?


Do tell... and just what is the half assed difference between a birch dowel, a ramin dowel, a homemade dowel of .... name your hardwood... and a cedar arrow?


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## Nam Nguyen (Jan 29, 2011)

What is half assing about a wood shaft? There is no difference in quality and durability of a dowel made for "arrows" and hand selecting straight grain dowels from the store. I've heard of ppl buying "premium" wood shafts with very questionable grain...grain I'd never touch for arrows.

I buy shafts and make arrows...I have no spine tester...just my hands. I shoot the arrows and keep the ones that fly straight for whatever bow I'm making them for.

Seems like some here are terrified of wood arrows. Its part of shooting them...I constantly check my arrows for damage.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Nam Nguyen said:


> What is half assing about a wood shaft? There is no difference in quality and durability of a dowel made for "arrows" and hand selecting straight grain dowels from the store. I've heard of ppl buying "premium" wood shafts with very questionable grain...grain I'd never touch for arrows.
> 
> I buy shafts and make arrows...I have no spine tester...just my hands. I shoot the arrows and keep the ones that fly straight for whatever bow I'm making them for.
> 
> Seems like some here are terrified of wood arrows. Its part of shooting them...I constantly check my arrows for damage.


I've been shooting only wood for years, and I've tried all sorts of wood shafts and several varieties of dowels. I'm now into making my own arrows out of local hardwoods mostly for grins and hunting.... Dowels are wood... exactly right. I'd like any of the "experts" here to show me where any dowel that spines with any of my "acceptable" arrows is inferior.

You mentioned grain. I can't tell you how many of my "spined and weighed" arrow shafts ... the acceptable ones that is.... can't hit the same spot as other shafts in the box. Which is why I buy arrows by the gross and why buying dowels at 6 times the number for the same delivered cost and even if I toss half of the dowels (and my friend says roughly 1/4 goes on the spine test you also employ) I get to shoot a lot more. I rove, I shoot, I shoot at almost anything when I shoot, and I destroy almost 100% of my blunts whenever I go "hunting". Good stuff.... and good fun.

Oh grain.... some of my cedar arrow shafts, one of which I am staring at as we speak and is on its way to becoming a chew toy for my doberman/shepherd puppy, has NO DISTINCT grain. I don't know about or exactly what runout is, many have tried to explain it to me on bow woods, but reality is it is the same for an arrow shaft, and if you can't have a real defined grain in wood, what do you have... really? A chew toy? A tomato stake? You may not have a safe arrow for sure and one thing for sure, is that if the arrow spines, it may still not shoot to point.

You say you don't have a spine testor... I haven't had one all these years either, and shoot and mark arrows to where they hit on a target to segregate them. However, i've now all the pieces to make my own and have a dial guage for my scale, but the wire pieces I have I accumulated for $8. The dial indicator and pieces about $30. So i'll have two within a week or two and I'll be able to see if they agree... one, but there is a lot of benefit to a spine tester with wood arrows when you're shooting bows that are not centershot... and on that scale, I'm learning more and more why one arrow can work for large discrpancies in weight range between bows... 

Wood is fun. My goal is to have both a homemade bow, homemade arrows, meaning from a branch I cut myself, and homemade broadheads to go hunting with.

Aloha... :beer:


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## Nam Nguyen (Jan 29, 2011)

IAIS604 said:


> Revelation? No.
> Miss-leading for a new arrow builder? Quite possibly!
> If "wood is wood", why buy your Ramin shafts?
> I'm sure Hobby Lobby has some cheap pine ones .....


Pine will make a good arrow...being the spine is correct along with the weight. Many have say pine will NOT make a bow but it can. Many used to say kiln dried lumber will never make a reliable bow....but it does.

I say go explore and see what works.

As for grain...I just look for grain that runs the full length of the shaft...same grain rules apply for bows and arrows.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Do tell... and just what is the half assed difference between a birch dowel, a ramin dowel, a homemade dowel of .... name your hardwood... and a cedar arrow?


Yeah, I think one can make arrows from much more than what the "arrow store" offers. Finished up reading Saxton Pope's "Hunting with the Bow and Arrow" last night on Kindle. He tested many woods from pines to hardwoods and found all to be suitable material but found birch the best. His suggestion was to buy bundles of 250 from commercial dowel stock - door and sash shops carried them, and cull them down. In lieu of that, dowel cut your own from sawed wood. He mentions nothing about a having a spine tester but did have 80# bows to test them on. Different breed of archers/bowhunters back then, I guess.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Sanford said:


> For pure safety's sake, all "traditional" shooters should be using carbon or aluminum. I mean, sourcing material from nature, or even a shortcut to the lumber yard, is just too dangerous. I mean, if it has not been inspected, culled, and sorted by someone in a factory uniform and certified as safe for bows, it can't be safe??? Of course, as Kegan demonstrates, there are those who choose the more traditional aspect of the hobby, and even pre-sorted, pre-conditioned shafts don't suit him as well as what he can produce. Some with the itch and starting their learning curve come here and ask first, maybe even seeking the same path of knowledge, which Kegan pointed to very well on the subject.
> 
> I remember the first MTO POC arrows I ordered from 3-Rivers. First one I pulled from the box, flexed slightly, and snapped it into two pieces. That one must have missed Quality Control Center.


How closed minded and vrey untrue this statement is! There is absolutely nothing wrong with wood arrows as long as they are properly prepared and are safe. We have heard from one extreme to the other in this thread. But sorry I cant disagree with the negative comments, because all I can see is someone walking into lowes or HD and just picking out some dowles, cutting them to legnth and trying to shoot them. I also beleieve someone mentioned it prior that the minor savings you might get will be quickly erased with problems down the line. Yes I preach about FOC, spine and properly tuned arrows because I like to be accurate and safe. I cant for this life of me understand how someone can walk into a hardware store and simply pull wodden dowels to shoot them not knowing what spine they are and what type of wood they are? If you do own the equipment to properly spine them and group them by wieght, you might as well just pay the little extra and get that done for you ahead of time. The common theme I also see in many of these posts is "hey who needs safety, these guys in years past did it, it must be safe!" you all scare the hell out me! Good luck with that!


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## GreyGhost83 (Jan 30, 2011)

When I had my Dream Catcher I was shooting port orford cedar 23/64" 55-60 spine 125 grain points and shot zwickey 135gr 2 blades for hunting and they worked really well. Of course I never killed anything with them but they were super strong and work great for just walking through the woods and having some fun stump shooting.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BowmanJay said:


> How closed minded and vrey untrue this statement is! There is absolutely nothing wrong with wood arrows as long as they are properly prepared and are safe. We have heard from one extreme to the other in this thread. But sorry I cant disagree with the negative comments, because all I can see is someone walking into lowes or HD and just picking out some dowles, cutting them to legnth and trying to shoot them. I also beleieve someone mentioned it prior that the minor savings you might get will be quickly erased with problems down the line. Yes I preach about FOC, spine and properly tuned arrows because I like to be accurate and safe. I cant for this life of me understand how someone can walk into a hardware store and simply pull wodden dowels to shoot them not knowing what spine they are and what type of wood they are? If you do own the equipment to properly spine them and group them by wieght, you might as well just pay the little extra and get that done for you ahead of time. The common theme I also see in many of these posts is "hey who needs safety, these guys in years past did it, it must be safe!" you all scare the hell out me! Good luck with that!


Sorry for the confusion in my post. I was trying to be facetious/sarcastic to the fact that one should ask about a DIY project in a "Traditional" forum. Wood is safe. Safe wood for bows and arrows abound in places other than arrow supply shops. That's all.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

I get caught up in school work over the last week and you gys are still going.....lol


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow.
What I'm getting at is that just running out and getting a bunch of sticks (dowels) and jamming points point and feathers on them because "wood is wood" is half assed. And that is because an an arrow isn't just a stick with a pointy end and some feathers. However one arrives at the finished product, and regardless of the actual wood species, a properly crafted wood arrow is a time consuming piece of art and engineering.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bender said:


> Wow.
> What I'm getting at is that just running out and getting a bunch of sticks (dowels) and jamming points point and feathers on them because "wood is wood" is half assed. And that is because an an arrow isn't just a stick with a pointy end and some feathers. However one arrives at the finished product, and regardless of the actual wood species, a properly crafted wood arrow is a time consuming piece of art and engineering.


Who is saying ANYTHING like that? Who is suggesting jamming points and feathers on a dowel. Wood IS wood, by the way, and wood has properties that need to be respected, whether ash, cedar, or ramin, or as I found out the other day is a great arrow shaft according to my source of information, *birch*.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Wood IS wood_


That is like saying that cotton is cotton and wool is wool. As someone who is a quasi-seamster (tailor) and used to working with cotton and wool fabric, I know for a fact that all cottons and wools are not the same nor of the same quality and durability, and that where and how the fabric was processed can make a huge difference in quality and durability. 

*Wood Properties*

The core warning of someone going to Lowe's, Home Depot, etc, and grabbing a handful of wood dowels to use as arrows has been _primarily based _on the knowledge and skill of the person intending to use the wood dowels for arrows.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> That is like saying that cotton is cotton and wool is wool. As someone who is a quasi-seamster (tailor) and used to working with cotton and wool fabric, I know for a fact that all cottons and wools are not the same nor of the same quality and durability, and that where and how the fabric was processed can make a huge difference in quality and durability.
> 
> *Wood Properties*
> 
> The core warning of someone going to Lowe's, Home Depot, etc, and grabbing a handful of wood dowels to use as arrows has been _primarily based _on the knowledge and skill of the person intending to use the wood dowels for arrows.


Do tell... and wool from one sheep is different than wool from another sheep you're saying? or that Cotton in one field is different that cotton from another? Ok... I can buy that... but I don't know that I understand anything that you're saying here. The core warning is the knowledge and skill of the person intending to use the wood dowel for an arrow???

Let me ask *you* a question. Do you make your own arrows? Do you make wood arrows? Do you "make" your own arrows or do you buy your "arrows" or arrow shafts? When you buy arrow shafts, what are criteria of purchase? What was that again? Oh spine... I see... and just what is spine? Really.... how much the arrow bends... and why do I need to know that again? I see.... and are you saying that a "spined" 50 pound shaft will work with my 50 pound bow? REALLY.... to coin a phrase of a two in the bush lady on GEICO... 

I find it comical that their are members of this forum that make their own arrows out of a 2X4. There are others, like myself, who are intent on making arrows from plants growing on my property, mainly guava. There are those who make selfbows and arrows who are very very accomplished at their craft would recommend a box of dowels for arrow making. I find it also comical that you and others seem to be warning that there is a difference between a wood dowel and a cedar shaft. Would you mind telling me again what that difference is?


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Wood dowels are made to be cut into short pieces to join other pieces of wood. I doubt any dowel manufacturer checks them for grain runout, because it's irrelevant to how dowels are generally used.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Rattus:

If you were a home builder and you told me that "wood IS wood," I wouldn't contract you to build me a doghouse. :smile:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Rattus:
> 
> If you were a home builder and you told me that "wood IS wood," I wouldn't contract you to build me a doghouse. :smile:


Ok.... tell me the differnce in cotton. Tell me the difference in wool. I happened to be piqued by your statement and google doesn't support your contention... so show me... 

If you couldn't differentiate the point I was making by saying wood is wood, I'm sorry for you. So tell me, since you are in the *know*, what is the difference between a 70# spined cedar shaft, a 70# ramin dowel, and a 70# birch dowel for arrow making referring to SAFETY... That is what we're talking about here isn't it?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Ok.... tell me the differnce in cotton. Tell me the difference in wool. I happened to be piqued by your statement and google doesn't support your contention... so show me... _


You have now reached a point of being ridiculous.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> ....warning that there is a difference between a wood dowel and a cedar shaft. Would you mind telling me again what that difference is?


It's a misplaced warning. You are correct. Spine measurement is just a measure flex and is not a guarantee of durability or suitability. Cedar is one of the most brittle woods out there. Take a cedar shaft from 3-Rivers POC and a birch or ramin dowel from Home Depot. Bend both to the breaking point and one will find out quickly how brittle that POC is. That's a durability or suitability test if we are talking as to what is safer. The fact is, both are safe enough for what we do.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> You have now reached a point of being ridiculous.


How so.... You made the suggestion.... :grin:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> what is the difference between a 70# spined cedar shaft, a 70# ramin dowel, and a 70# birch dowel for arrow making referring to SAFETY... That is what we're talking about here isn't it?


The cedar one is going to break first? :lol:

I'm making a small set of birch dowel arrows for a couple selfbows I'm building (wanted something heavier in physical weight than my carbons). They're coming along great but so far it's quite a bit of work. Come spring I might try to add some sourwood shoot arrows and maybe even split-timber hickory arrows. Don't have the money for any more dowels.


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## Nam Nguyen (Jan 29, 2011)

lets agree to disagree.

Same grain rules apply for bows and arrows...wood is still wood.

No one ever said just go grab some dowels and make arrows. I know the hand spine of an arrow for my bow pretty well. Out of 100 dowels at lowes/wal mart/home depot/menards maybe 6-10 are good enough for an arrow. We aren't saying go in with blind eyes. 

Same as not any board will make a bow but maybe 1 in 50 in the stack.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> The cedar one is going to break first? :lol:
> 
> I'm making a small set of birch dowel arrows for a couple selfbows I'm building (wanted something heavier in physical weight than my carbons). They're coming along great but so far it's quite a bit of work. Come spring I might try to add some sourwood shoot arrows and maybe even split-timber hickory arrows. Don't have the money for any more dowels.


That is probably quite correct. My ash arrows take/took a beating where my cedars destroy themselves on contact it seems. I'm not experienced enough with other woods to make an offering, but I'm in the process of changing that... with, of all things.... homemade arrows from scrach.... (branches and shrubs) and dowels of various stripes...

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Nam Nguyen said:


> lets agree to disagree.
> 
> Same grain rules apply for bows and arrows...wood is still wood.
> 
> ...


My mentor on guava bows and arrows from same, uses Ramin dowels for everyday grins.... and he loses about 20 to 25% of a box of 600. Others have told me that the same will be true of birch... so I'm heartened.... and hand spining seems to be quite the means of spining for centuries past.... 

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> My mentor on guava bows and arrows from same, uses Ramin dowels for everyday grins.... and he loses about 20 to 25% of a box of 600. Others have told me that the same will be true of birch... so I'm heartened.... and hand spining seems to be quite the means of spining for centuries past....
> 
> Much Aloha... :beer:


A quarter culled seems about right for the birch arrows I've used too. Closer to 50% on small batches though(less than 50 dowels).


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> A quarter culled seems about right for the birch arrows I've used too. Closer to 50% on small batches though(less than 50 dowels).


I wonder why a box of 600.... and how do they come up with 600 anyway.... 50 dozen.... never mind.... :grin:.... got it... I just saw Birch, http://www.bearwood.com/DOWELS-BIRCH.HTML
$179.00 for 600.... 

Rose City Archery for but 100... $242. So.... lets say 50% of the Birch dowels are bad.... 300 shafts for $180.... 300 Cedar.... $720. Hmmmmmm

Option cost chart
(Please order from drop down boxes below this chart)Item & Options 1 Dozen 100 Count 
Bare Shaft $37.35 $242.95 
Clear Lacquer $43.35 $292.95 
Stain & Lacquer $43.35 $292.95 
Grain Weigh- Bare $43.35 $292.95 
Clear Lacquer & Gr. Weigh $48.35 $332.95 
Stain, Lacquer & Gr. Weigh $48.35 $332.95 


Prices include Federal Excise Tax.

For those with desire to experiment with arrows and who like myself shoot incessantly, the alternatives are attractive... and a SPINE TESTER is cheap investment.

Much Aloha.. :beer:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

That's pretty much why I just used dowels/shoots, or just bought carbon/aluminum. If I want a wooden arrow there are plenty of cheap ways to get them, and if I want to pay for consistency I'll just use more mordern shafting and get strength too.

Port Orford cedar arrows will always remain a mystery to me, they're so fragile compared to other types of shafting and yet people take such great pains to craft them into such beautiful works of art. Guess they just take better care of their arrows than I do. It always broke my heart making somehting really nice (and never as nice as the ones I've seen made by others) and have it break or lose it.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> That's pretty much why I just used dowels/shoots, or just bought carbon/aluminum. If I want a wooden arrow there are plenty of cheap ways to get them, and if I want to pay for consistency I'll just use more mordern shafting and get strength too.
> 
> Port Orford cedar arrows will always remain a mystery to me, they're so fragile compared to other types of shafting and yet people take such great pains to craft them into such beautiful works of art. Guess they just take better care of their arrows than I do. It always broke my heart making somehting really nice (and never as nice as the ones I've seen made by others) and have it break or lose it.


I spray, dip or polish my arrows and put shields on em with nocks if I have them, cut them if I don't. I shoot blunts when I hunt at anything I can. To come home with 1 of 4 blunts is a measure of the level of my enjoyment...

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## stiknstring (Aug 27, 2008)

Well you guys keep buying all your expensive arrow shafts and bust em up on bunnies...I will keep sorting my poplar dowels like I have been for 30 years and doing just fine with saving my hard earned money for hunting trips instead. If you know what you are doing you can save a lot and still shoot safely


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> If you know what you are doing......


The magic words! _Thoroughly _know is paramount.


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## Foxrod5.0 (Sep 3, 2010)

I remember using hardware store dowel rods as shafts for a recurve I had when I was a kid(30-35#). Used electrical tape for flethcing and press-on field points. Took out many a varmint using them. Must've been operating under the "what you don't know can't hurt you" principle.


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## archer756 (Aug 10, 2009)

Here is one for you to think about, wood has to be shoot in the longbow class for any IBO. So wood must be bad, wood :embara: scores are sometimes higher than CARBON / ALUM Must be that the wood just does't know that it is not to shoot those scores!:wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

crispy7229 said:


> I have heard of this before but read it in ky outdoors magzine bout using dowels as small game arrows. I was wondering what exactly would I have to have for a 55# recurve 125 grain tips wanting them bout 29-30 inches long. Can you guys help? Would lowes have them, Home depot? Dia.?



Just could not resist the urge.:focus: Even though I have really enjoyed this thread a lot, I still have to point out for those who either cannot read or have some comprehension problems,that it's not about 'wood is bad' or 'wood is good'. 

If you just read the original post,it's easy to see that the person has limited knowledge about the subject. If that were not true, then he probably would have already known that it is possible to make arrows from 'some of these dowels'. IF you know what you are doing. Otherwise,not such a great idea.
Maybe he will be so kind as to let us know how it worked out.


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## crispy7229 (Jul 10, 2007)

I ended up gettin some help from Kegan he sent me a batch of shafts they are working great.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

crispy7229 said:


> I ended up gettin some help from Kegan he sent me a batch of shafts they are working great.


Yeah, that Kegan is a good boy. If only there was a demand for good boys,we could sell him.:angel::wink:

Really glad to hear that it worked out well. And now you know that you do have friends here willing to help,if you are willing to sort out the bs along the way.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _IF you know what you are doing. Otherwise,not such a great idea._


:thumbs_up


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> IF you know what you are doing. Otherwise,not such a great idea.
> :thumbs_up


Let me ask you a question. Would you grab any carbon shaft or aluminum shaft out of a box and make an arrow with it if you were new to the sport? By the way, have you ever had a carbon shaft *explode* out of a longbow? The only failure I've ever had with a "true" longbow was because of this... This has never happened with a wood shaft for me, and though I've had arrows "disintegrate", they were, oddly, all storebought "arrowshafts". How do you square your obvious bias against wood dowels with that?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Would you grab any carbon shaft or aluminum shaft out of a box and make an arrow with it if you were new to the sport?"


Huh!



> How do you square your obvious bias against wood dowels with that?


The same as I do not use certain after-market parts on my vehicles if safety or greater odds of breakdown is an issue.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Huh!
> 
> 
> The same as I do not use certain after-market parts on my vehicles if safety or greater odds of breakdown is an issue.


Why don't you answer the question? Ok... more directly... would you pull a handful of assorted aluminum or carbon shafts from a box and make arrows with them?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Why don't you answer the question?_


Just did.....


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Just did.....


No you haven't, you've ducked the main point... or is "HUH" your sum total of experience with this? Maybe it is... then.... and that would explain the totality of your answer......


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Rattus:

If I recall correctly you have professed to have had about every bow you have ever owned, which you alleged included high-quality bows....and the number was many.... break or fail in some manner in very short time; in fact, a Guinness World Record amount, as I recall. Do you suppose shooting crap arrows might have contributed to the failure?

Regardless, I can't put much credence on much of what you have to say in that if your stories about most of your bows breaking is factual, most of what you have to say regarding safety and maintenance...to me....mostly goes in one ear and quickly out the other. In my 48 years of owning and shooting all types of bows, I have never had one fail, I have never had an equipment failure, and many years ago I had but 1 wood shaft shatter as it left the riser. 

Sorry!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Rattus:
> 
> If I recall correctly you have professed to have had about every bow you have ever owned, which you alleged included high-quality bows....and the number was many.... break or fail in some manner in very short time; in fact, a Guinness World Record amount, as I recall. Do you suppose shooting crap arrows might have contributed to the failure?
> 
> ...


What does anything you say here have to do with the question? I'm beginnig to think you're a fraud.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _I'm beginnig to think you're a fraud._


Based on...?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Based on...?


Ummmm look at your response Windwalker.... you're not answering the obvious... so why don't you do that.... You're doing the typical deflection by bringing up the irrelevant.... What does my having bows break have to do with anything? Are you besmirching Bear Kodiaks, Wing, Browning bows? New Martin bows.... someone as expert as you should have an inkling of an idea why these bows failed given my experience at the time, my drawlength and shooting style. What does that have to do with dowels? Or wooden arrows, for that matter, and, you nitwit, I was shooting arrows provided by a well respected archery shop.. and for your information, I've never shot anything but 2219's when it came to aluminum.

You are not answering the obvious because it would expose your argument as being a frivolous one.


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

Ok guys be nice.... all forum rules apply to this section as well.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> so why don't you do that....


I already have...several times. It's just that my opinions and my answers do not meet _your_ criteria and _your_ approval. Now, there are others that have the near-same opinions; give me a break and go pick on someone else.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> Let me ask you a question. Would you grab any carbon shaft or aluminum shaft out of a box and make an arrow with it if you were new to the sport? By the way, have you ever had a carbon shaft *explode* out of a longbow? The only failure I've ever had with a "true" longbow was because of this... This has never happened with a wood shaft for me, and though I've had arrows "disintegrate", they were, oddly, all storebought "arrowshafts". How do you square your obvious bias against wood dowels with that?


I don't understand exactly how you cannot 'get it' on this. But,I suppose that most have 'grabbed' an aluminum or carbon arrow out of a box and made an arrow.Actually,my friend,it had already been made into an arrow by experts in arrow making long before I reached into the box. Passed inspection by pro arrow gurus etc. 
On the other hand,a plain wood dowel, made for some other purpose than arrows,has not been through that process. That is all that we have tried to get across here. Just the facts maam,just the facts.
Now you can argue that fact till you turn blue in the face if you like. I like to wrestle in the mud sometimes,but it still will not change the facts.

I'm not so sure about someone who considers it a badge of honor to bust up all their arrows in a single outing.:moped_mazeguy: To each his own I guess. But the fact still remains that if a person doesn't know what he is doing with wood dowels,then he should not attempt to shoot it from a bow.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Yeah, that Kegan is a good boy.


Score one for public schools:wink:


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

archer756 said:


> Here is one for you to think about, wood has to be shoot in the longbow class for any IBO. So wood must be bad, wood :embara: scores are sometimes higher than CARBON / ALUM Must be that the wood just does't know that it is not to shoot those scores!:wink:


True, but I wonder how many of those woody shooters who can do that do it using dowels from the hardware store? Hmmmm. 


rattus58 said:


> Ok... more directly... would you pull a handful of assorted aluminum or carbon shafts from a box and make arrows with them?


We see that all the time with new archers. They do that exact thing because they just don't know any better yet. Which is a big part of why using wood dowels from the hardware store, although technically "doable" is just not the brightest idea, especially for a newby. The original poster, crispy is a newby. Everybody who advised him against it was providing good advice.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bender said:


> True, but I wonder how many of those woody shooters who can do that do it using dowels from the hardware store? Hmmmm.
> 
> We see that all the time with new archers. They do that exact thing because they just don't know any better yet. Which is a big part of why using wood dowels from the hardware store, although technically "doable" is just not the brightest idea, especially for a newby. The original poster, crispy is a newby. Everybody who advised him against it was providing good advice.


You're making my point for me. If a newby doesn't get help, learn which arrow shaft is proper for his bow, learn how to affix the feather and the point properly, he's likely to run into difficulty for a lack of inquisitiveness or interest. I think that those are in an exteme minority, but I could be wrong. I think, given the public school system even, that those who wish to embark on making their own anything, will seek advise from others who have been before them.... I don't know this for certain, just sayin ... you know.

As for dowels versus wood arrows, I'm of the opinion that there is a bias based on a lack of knowledge. Wood arrows, I've ALWAYS been counceled need to be spined. There are lots of ways to do this, the most accurate of course is a spine tester. Barring that, how do you do that? You bend your shafts, and if they break straight away.... probably not usable. If they don't, it's worth a try. I've heard this from so many people as of late that I'm inclined to think that there is something to it. It was demonstrated to me on Ramin, just about a month ago, that out of 10 dowels, you lose about 25% of them to breakage straight away. The rest all spined over 70-75. This particular gentleman told me that he sanded his shafts to a proper spine. I've since been suggested to that I should look into Birch dowels as well, and someone here or maybe on primitive archer... paleo... don't quite remember, suggested that a 3/8 Birch dowel was an average 80-85 pounds... if it didn't break straight off. I know Kagen has played with Birch too... soooo 

I call it fear mongering when the advise is given with warnings. This is not only silly, it is harmful, in my estimation, to the overall education of anyone here. Education comes with knowledge. Knowledge is best imparted impartially. Don't say a wood dowel is bad, say any shaft will have the potential to fail if not properly cared for. Part of that care is to assure yourself that the bow will not bend the arrow shaft, and an arrow shaft is not just Rose City Cedar, it can be cane, it can be, as I've also seen, be a branch or bush shaved to dimension and put on a string, excessively.

Part of that care is to make sure you have your arrow straight... part of that care is to seal the arrow... how do we know or learn this? What happens to an arrow that is not sealed that is shot into a wet environment? Will that arrow weaken? Will it break? How do you know yes or no?

When you get into wood arrows, there is a lot you need to learn. You have to be committed to a wood arrow, unlike probably carbon and certainly aluminum, which I started with... wham bam... with them. Not so wood. Wood also takes investment, moreso than aluminum or maybe carbon. Wood is fun. Much more so than either or any of the alternatives for me. And wood lets me shoot with abandon.... not so with aluminum, and from what I'm hearing, never with carbon.... 

I say, educate and have fun. Never mind the No/Never/Watchout Syndromes that seem to permeate these threads whenever someone is trying to learn something new... and especially when those who are using scare tactics haven't been part of the experience.

My thoughts and opinions... as usual...

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)




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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


>


wow what a mugshot!


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## archer756 (Aug 10, 2009)

Bender, good point we select shafts:thumbs_up:thumbs_up very carefuly. Good point


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Barbossa: So what now, Jack Sparrow? Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle until Judgment Day and trumpets sound?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

archer756 said:


> Bender, good point we select shafts:thumbs_up:thumbs_up very carefuly. Good point


I'm very interested in this. Tell me how you go about selecting shafts from Home Depot... 

Aloha... :beer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I'm very interested in this. Tell me how you go about selecting shafts from Home Depot...


Wait one! I thought you already knew how......


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

Thanks to all the "experts" on this threat, I finally finished making six poplar dowel rod arrows. These are 5/16 at 29inches with 125 field tip. I used the screw driver trick to straighten them, and the hole of the crescent wrench, and found using the plumber's torch and heating them the best way to straighten them. I sealed them in minwax. I sprayed them with polyurathane, dressed them up with white wraps, used four inch feathers. I shot them today at ten and twenty yards and they grouped well, at least as long as I did not send them wide or over the top. I had fun with them and they're holding up just fine. Course, my bow is only 38#, but I had fun with them. I would not use them in competition, or 3D, but for form work and just playing at 10 to 20 yds, I'll use them. After reading all the things on this thread, and using the "what to look for, and what to avoid, and which to pitch" I think I did a good job. So I'll use these home made specials and save on my expensive 3Rivers "good ones" by using the home made ones for skills practice. Many thanks to you all.


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