# 300 Shooters Only!!



## poobear (May 14, 2008)

I measure 27.5 to 27.75 on most measurements. I shoot 28.25 the best. Varies a little but 28-28.25 depending on AtA


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## Tony Bagnall (Sep 8, 2012)

Wow ..... waiting to see how many 300 shooters there are here..... I dont shoot spots often... I do shoot 3d... This is an interesting post so although i an not a member of the 300 club here is my info .... My wing span is 67 inches my height 67 inches.. My draw lenght should be 26.8..... My elite e35 dl is 26.5 My pse drive is 27... Thats actual draw length of both bows as measured on a draw board......


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

at 6 ft. 1 in. long arms, long fingers,i shoot a hoyt target bow at 28 1/2,measured also by bernie pellerite too. i used too shoot 28 inch draw so i could get my hinge to go off easier, but bernie made me change to 28 1/2 draw.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I run shorter than what I'm measured at; but I shot a rather open stance and align to the target in a way that allows me to run a shorter dl with good success.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Actual DL= 31.5
Wingspan/2.5= 31.2
wingspan-15/2= 31.5
center of collar bones to wrist=31.5


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I don't entertain with AMO DL because the calculation is not accurate between brands.

My bow true DL was 27.2" and I just decrease it last week to 27.0"; 
Also I increased the d-loop to 1" and use softest material possible;
Wingspan 70" and 69.25" high and me 54 y/o.

I play rings only, right now is FITA/Field season, my focus is on long range shooting (currently averaging 685-691/720 at 50 meters);
I have most comfortable scores with this slightly shorter draw, holding weight 20.3 lbs at 56.2 peek DW (62.8% letoff down from 70%), using also a front and two side bars.

I am sorry if my details not entirely as the OP asked, but believe the OP DL calculations are basic and good to write statistics only.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, I just measured me again for the maybe 100th time over the years. My Wing Span is 72" and maybe a tad more. Others have measured my WS and came up just a hair short of 72". If by the 2.5 Formula, 28.8". If by Bernie's, WS-15/2, 28.5".

Measured draw length of my bow is 28 1/2" (apex of the string to the deepest part of the grip) and d-loop of 5/8", so 29 1/8"..... Normally, I set my bow draw length to 28 1/4", but usually with a longer ata bow. Now, if I go longer, as much as 1/8", say 29 1/4", I can feel it long. 29 1/8" works well with my ST360, Stan BlackJack hinge and Stan Deuce hinge. 

By the 2.5 formula, 28.8" plus the 5/8" d-loop, 29.425". If by Bernie's, 29 1/8" and what I have.

If shooting off the string of my UltraTec and using my Scott Mongoose index release my bow is set to 29" and I have successfully shot off the string with this bow set to 28 1/2" and same release, just that my bow arm is set a tad different.

Now, Tom is pretty good at just about everything archery and I know Tom, field14.... I like aggravating him  Still, releases, facial features, hands, fingers and so forth make for different draw lengths. And then bows with limb draw stops and cable stops have different effects....

You didn't note and I haven't read Tom's book. The release arm needs positioned so the ease of pivot point is present (hinge type release) and perhaps why the slightly longer draw length... Wish I could draw, like pictures. Release elbow out, add back tension, muscles draws the shoulder before elbow can come back around (most times why a hinge is hard to fire). Now, release elbow in line with power stroke, add back tension, muscles draw elbow back (pivot point active) and hinge is more easily fired.....Pretty easy to check. Pretend you're at full draw, but release elbow out. Have some one push your release elbow straight back. Feel the movement - like shoulder is moving. Same thing, but elbow in line with power stroke of bow string. What moves first?
Don't know if this will show exactly; Pivot point and release elbow ./ V direction of push. Pivot point and release elbow .__ V direction of push. I've got pictures some dang place.....

John Dudley has much on back tension and stabilization and probably draw length - About a ton 1/2 of reading and pictures if you read all
http://www.nockontv.com/article.

If I were to ask for a Sticky for this forum, the above would be it....


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Okay, I just measured me again for the maybe 100th time over the years. My Wing Span is 72" and maybe a tad more. Others have measured my WS and came up just a hair short of 72". If by the 2.5 Formula, 28.8". If by Bernie's, WS-15/2, 28.5".
> 
> Measured draw length of my bow is 28 1/2" (apex of the string to the deepest part of the grip) and d-loop of 5/8", so 29 1/8"..... Normally, I set my bow draw length to 28 1/4", but usually with a longer ata bow. Now, if I go longer, as much as 1/8", say 29 1/4", I can feel it long. 29 1/8" works well with my ST360, Stan BlackJack hinge and Stan Deuce hinge.
> 
> ...


And I bet you do a good job of aggravating, too. :darkbeer:

73" wing span, measured 29.25 to 29.375 dl depending on cams/firmness of stops


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

In terms of OR, I actually find the clicker to be an indirect device for figuring out a reliable DL. If you have an extended/ sight mounted clicker that can slide in and out. You can figure out the sweet spot (Is it too easy to pop? Or am I working too hard?) which is presumably right in the neighborhood of the correct DL, give or take the extension distance/ longer arrows (if you subtracted the extension off the arrow length that's probably close to the DL).


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

I have studied this for a while and use it way more than you can know. 
heres where I start with everybody.

armspan/2.5+= starter dl. put a 5/8" loop on and look at the back to see where the shoulder blades are, adjust as needed then read sight movement. 

On a broad range of people with skinny shoulders I have found most shoot best 1/4' shorter than caculated. With really wide shouldered people !/4 longer seems to be where they shoot best. Normal people with normal proportions hit real close to this method. I have shot a lot of 300's and I have also taught a lot of people to shoot a lot of 300's. 

Blue X


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I am 5'9" with an average frame. I have a 70" wingspan and shoot 28" AMO DL. 70"/2.5=28"... The original wingspan method of 70"-15 divided by 2 = 27.5" which is too short for me. I also shoot a .750 inside measurement loop.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I'll toss in my couple of 300 games because my measurements skew the usual formulas. Height 5'4" with a wingspan measurement of 64.5/2.5= 25.8". However, due to having broad shoulders and gorilla arms, my comfortable shooting draw lengths are 27 3/8" for field/fita and 27.5" for indoor spots shooting a hinge off cable stops--both with a 1/2" loop. BTW, notch of neck to wrist = 27.5" on the nose....:wink:


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

I am never exactly sure , Normally a couple pieces of fuzz under 31" - My actual wing span is written on a wall in some archery Guru's cave in the land of stock cars and cheap beers.

in the presure-less comfort of my own range I would venture to say I can shoot a 300 with my DL 1/2 too long or too short


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Once you all have your DL "close" do you 

a) keep adjusting the strings and cables and leave the loop length constant

b) adjust your loop (if using one) and leave the strings/cables alone (I see several different length loops listed)

c) combination of the two

until you are happy with the DL for your form?

Personally, I leave my loop pretty much the same and twist/untwist until I'm happy with the way the bow feels and shoots. I will also mess with the draw stops (size and position) to see if they make any difference.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

DL adjustments are primarily for the front end of our shooting platform (peep distance, string angle to face, touching nose to string, etc), while d-loop length primarily affects the back end (how the draw arm aligns with the arrow, the crispness of the shot, etc). While the two meet in the middle, they are very different beasts; thus the confusion that arises when people feel they can adjust a bow's DL simply by changing the loop length. 

If my DL needs tweaking I adjust string/cables or even use the limb bolts, but I do not alter my d-loop length unless I specifically wish to make some change to my anchor or alter the leverage for my release.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

not a 300 shooter any more...a stroke about 5 years ago took care of that problem. aside from that I still have my knowledge. 
my true draw length is exactly what my wingspan/2.5 comes out to and has been that way since I started shooting. most accomplished shooters really don't go by any other method of establishing the right length, other than what allows their release execution to run the best. by that, I mean they might use some formula to establish a base length and the tune by twisting to arrive where they need to be.
in most cases an twist or two can be the difference between really reliable and somewhat reliable. all of them have gone through the hoops of trying different lengths to find the exactly right spot.
all I can say, when asked what my draw length is, is that it's around 27 inches....truly "around" 27 inches, what it is exactly, I have no idea, all I know is that it is where my release execution works the best and that involves 27 inch modules with some tweeking on most bows.
we hear all sorts of stories about "drawlength has got to right for a good hold"....when you're after 300's, that is important, but i'll tell you that the real crux of the biscuit lies in the length that allows your release execution to run the most reliably, given the draw length is compatible to your anatomy. now of course, the more ingrained your release execution is into your sub conscious, the more critical that "exact length" becomes. this is because you need to operate at a certain "level of efficiency", that only the perfectly right draw length affords, to be a consistent 300 shooter. 
by that, I mean to say that it's safe to assume, that pretty much, all of the consistent 300 shooters, have draw lengths that are ultimately established by how well their release execution runs, within the small range that is "mechanically", their "good draw length".


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

montigre said:


> DL adjustments are primarily for the front end of our shooting platform (peep distance, string angle to face, touching nose to string, etc), while d-loop length primarily affects the back end (how the draw arm aligns with the arrow, the crispness of the shot, etc). While the two meet in the middle, they are very different beasts; thus the confusion that arises when people feel they can adjust a bow's DL simply by changing the loop length.
> 
> If my DL needs tweaking I adjust string/cables or even use the limb bolts, but I do not alter my d-loop length unless I specifically wish to make some change to my anchor or alter the leverage for my release.


Very well put-
And it should be no more difficult than that
2.5 will pretty much get every one in a functioning learning range , being off a 1/4 will not stop you from hitting 300 by any means - Humans are very adaptable creatures.
as Ron stated exact DL helps a shooter "operate at a certain "level of efficiency" -


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

300 on what target? NFAA 5 spot I've shot some 300's and my X count has been high enough where I ought to be able to shoot 300's on a Vegas face as well (I've been close but I always screw up). My highest x-count on a 5 spot to date is 55X. I have DL issues though, I've shot from 27.5-28.5" and shot roughly the same scores, it all depends on dloop length, ATA of the bow, which release you're shooting and the length of the head on that release etc. If I have learned anything from shooting it is that changing 1 thing on a setup changes EVERYTHING. If I'm going to shoot 3d or field and I'm worried I'll have steep angled shots I'll run a shorter DL by about .5". Indoors I can afford to stretch the DL out a bit more and that really steadies my float. Longer distance shooting outdoors I'd prefer a tighter float even if it is a bit fast moving. Technically I measure 28" wingspan divided by 2.5", but if you go by yardstick to throat to tip of fingers I'm 27.75". I'm still not sure on my exact DL or where I should be, I've been ridiculed about the high release elbow and that my DL should be much longer, but I've fought the pin or dot dropping low while executing the shot which is indicative of DL too long or too much mass bow weight. I believe I'm really around the 27.875" DL as measured from throat of grip to the string on a draw board not including the d-loop. I've changed and jumped too much from bow to bow over the last year and have been doing a lot of experimenting. I'll say it like Reo Wilde said it, and that is you have to do what works for you and feels right for you. I feel I've listened to too many peoples thoughts and opinions on my form or how I execute a shot or my DL was too long or short or whatever and I'll say that none of it has worked for me, and all the high level coaches I've contacted are either too busy and blow me off or want too much money.


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## 2little2late (Dec 25, 2006)

Quick question. Does this wingspan/2.5 equal true draw or AMO draw length? I always thought true draw length was throat to string while AMO was true draw plus 1 3/4 inch. That is a huge swing with everyone throwing all these measurements and terms around rather loosely.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I was assuming AMO


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

AMO DL is throat of grip to string + 1.75" I believe.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Add 32" for my "fist against wall- corner of mouth" method.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ArcherXXX300 said:


> I've fought the pin or dot dropping low while executing the shot which is indicative of DL too long or too much mass bow weight.


Shoulder expert here... don't discount a misalignment of your shoulders (collapsed) causing your pin/dot/reticule to drop out the bottom... :wink:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

2little2late said:


> Quick question. Does this wingspan/2.5 equal true draw or AMO draw length? I always thought true draw length was throat to string while AMO was true draw plus 1 3/4 inch. That is a huge swing with everyone throwing all these measurements and terms around rather loosely.


Wingspan/2.5 measures true draw length. Gotta add the 1.75" to get the AMO length.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

hdracer said:


> Once you all have your DL "close" do you
> 
> a) keep adjusting the strings and cables and leave the loop length constant
> once i get close on dl, dl being the key here, its adjusted and fine tuned only with harness lengths. if its "big" adjustments its through cables, if its truly fine tuning its through a twist or two in to/out of the cables
> ...


working harness lengths(string especially) are something to learn well; twist here and there can take you from going home empty to the podium


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

N7709K said:


> working harness lengths(string especially) are something to learn well; twist here and there can take you from going home empty to the podium


 To be honest I think to truly understand this you need to be shooting very , very solid scores - Very solid ( odiously you are there ) 
There is a finite tightrope walk , between archer , Dl , speed on the release that just works -


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

montigre said:


> Shoulder expert here... don't discount a misalignment of your shoulders (collapsed) causing your pin/dot/reticule to drop out the bottom... :wink:


as in front shoulder blade moving rearward toward the spine or as in high shoulder (deltoid) scrunching up towards trapezius?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> DL adjustments are primarily for the front end of our shooting platform (peep distance, string angle to face, touching nose to string, etc), while d-loop length primarily affects the back end (how the draw arm aligns with the arrow, the crispness of the shot, etc). While the two meet in the middle, they are very different beasts; thus the confusion that arises when people feel they can adjust a bow's DL simply by changing the loop length.
> 
> If my DL needs tweaking I adjust string/cables or even use the limb bolts, but I do not alter my d-loop length unless I specifically wish to make some change to my anchor or alter the leverage for my release.


What he said...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> Wingspan/2.5 measures true draw length. Gotta add the 1.75" to get the AMO length.


I believe you are mistaken... My wingspan is 70" if you divide 70 X 2.5 you get 28" which is my AMO DL exactly. My "True" DL is 26.25"


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> I believe you are mistaken... My wingspan is 70" if you divide 70 X 2.5 you get 28" which is my AMO DL exactly. My "True" DL is 26.25"


You may be right....I freely admit to sticking foot into mouth at times...lol! Anyway, just goes to show how terribly skewed the wingspan method can be if the shooter does not have the "perfect" anatomical ratios to work with...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

WS/2.5,... is based on AMO measurement. a quick way for a shop to establish what modules to throw on a bow being tested by a potential buyer. that's about as effective as it is and that's all.
i'm one of those guys that fits into the equation exactly. my actual shooting draw length is exactly what the equation derives. 

all this means is that my WS and my Height are "anthropometrically balanced", which really means very little. when a person is "anthrpometrically balanced', his height is the same as his wingspan. i'm sure, you've all seen that illustration of a circle with a human body draw inside it. that was devised by Leonardo D'vinche (SP?), way back when. it's purpose was to establish design parameters for the sizes of anything associated with the human anatomy....the rules he formulated, still remain the same and are applicable, today, because they are based on numerical ratio.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Wing span = 76"/2.5 = 30.4" 

39" ATA bow: 29.75" DL + 0.79" DLoop = 30.54"

37.5" ATA bow (still tweaking): 29.625" DL + 0.93" DLoop = 30.555"


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as with any numerical ratio, the application can only fully satisfy a specific range within the sample spectrum of it's application. most commonly, when samples reach either end of that spectrum, derived answers become somewhat inconsistent to the equations function.
at 6'4", you are approaching the higher end of the sample supply., just the same as someone that is maybe 5-4 or shorter would be approaching the lower end of the sample supply. here, derived answers don't always follow the equation's useful projection.
you also have to keep in mind that it is for only a starting point and further tweeking is most certainly, likely to be needed.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

montigre said:


> Wingspan/2.5 measures true draw length. Gotta add the 1.75" to get the AMO length.


Nope.
Not correct.

Wingspan / 2.5 = AMO draw length.

For example.

Wingspan = 75-inches...my wingspan

Wingspan/2.5 = 30-inches....for estimated AMO DL
(Wingspan-15 inches)/2 = 30-inches....for estimated AMO DL
Fist against wall, to corner of mouth....30.5-inches for estimated AMO DL

Wrist crease to button on shirt = 29-inches...new Coach Bernie method for estimating AMO draw length.




Soo,
if I add 1.75-inches to the "wingspan/2.5".....I would get 30-inches PLUS 1.75-inches = 31.75-inches.

Nope.
I shoot 29-inches AMO draw length or even slightly less.


If folks are using the math formulas,
for example,
the Wingspan/2.5....this is an estimate of AMO draw length...

the formulas give you an estimate for what size FIXED DL CAM to use on your bow
the formulas give you an estimate for what size DL module to use on your bow.




*Do not add another 1.75-inches to the math formulas.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AMO DL does not include d-loop length.

40-inch ATA DST 40 bow.
29-inch cams.

True DL measures out exactly at 27.25-inches,
from throat of the grip to the inside edge of the center serving,
between d-loop knots.

27.25-inches is the TRUE DL, or the tape measure reading, on a draw board.

AMO DL is the TAPE MEASURE reading, plus a bit of math...adding the 1.75-inches,
so a TAPE measure reading of 27.25-inches PLUS 1.75-inches...

means my DST 40 is set at an AMO DL of 29.00-inches.

So,
whether I use a 1/4-inch D-loop
whether I use a 1/2-inch D-Loop
whether I use a 3/4-inch D-Loop..

the BOW is still a 29-inch DL...regardless of the d-loop length.


When we talk about a SHOOTER's draw length
sure, you can include d-loop length if you like.


BUT,
when we are talking the formulas...

the Wingspan/2.5 formula.....this gives you the AMO DL setting for the bow,
for what size CAM to select
for what size DL module to select...

IF the labels for the AMO DL on the bow were correct....for fixed DL cam size
IF the labels for the AMO DL on the bow were correct...for DL modules size.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

General Archery Information One On One


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Weeel, when I first read the thread title I thought the thread was directed at folks that shot 300 _Vegas_ rounds!........ Obviously I was seriously mistaken. 

My draw length is solely based on how I shoot and I've never done any type of measuring other than drawing an arrow and marking it. My draw length has gradually decreased almost a full. 25" in the last 6 or so months. Why that is I am not sure other than to say I am now holding and executing shots better than ever!! Being as my draw length is almost nub like I sure would like to keep it s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d out to 26 inches!! I'm 5'4" when I'm feeling particularly boisterous and my draw length is 25.75" - 25 7/8" give or take a frog hair or two.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Kstigall said:


> Weeel, when I first read the thread title I thought the thread was directed at folks that shot 300 _Vegas_ rounds!........ Obviously I was seriously mistaken.
> 
> My draw length is solely based on how I shoot and I've never done any type of measuring other than drawing an arrow and marking it. My draw length has gradually decreased almost a full. 25" in the last 6 or so months. Why that is I am not sure other than to say I am now holding and executing shots better than ever!! Being as my draw length is almost nub like I sure would like to keep it s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d out to 26 inches!! I'm 5'4" when I'm feeling particularly boisterous and my draw length is 25.75" - 25 7/8" give or take a frog hair or two.



in my own defense , no distance was specified


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## toypar (Feb 7, 2008)

I have a question on the WS/2.5 method. If someone shoots with a bend bow arm and someone shooting with a straight bow arm with the same wingspan. Wouldn't they have different draw length?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yes, the important issue here, is that we have to realize that any formula you can find, for just about anything, will only be "absolute" within a small range of samples. there are way too many variables to simply rely on the WS/2.5 formula as a final definition of the correct draw length for anyone. it is meant to simply help you decide if 28 inch or 28-1/2 inch modules would be better than 27-1/2 or 29 inch modules. further refinement will always be necessary.
the reason some shops are so dependent on this formula, is because it is published and relatively well known. it allows them a simple and quick method, to put a set of modules on a bow and get it out the door, with what the buyer feels is the right draw length for him....period.
of course with so much variation in samples, there will always be the person who fits the equation more or less exactly....I happen to be one of those, but I realize it is simply by pure chance and has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the actually bow fits me, with the derived draw length modules I have on it.....IOW, it doesn't "prove" the equation.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

I use the wingspan/2.5 method pretty exclusively. When people come to see me I want them to be close enough that we can get to "the" draw length with cable adjustments. People fly and drive here from long distances and I am not cheap. You got to have something to make sure people dont show up with a bow 3" to long with not enough or no adjustment.

So far I have not found one single person that misses it by much when we get finished. . 

Blue X


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## dlutjen (Oct 7, 2010)

I happen to fit the WS/2.5 formula within 1/4" (AMO). I am 5' 9" with a 69" WS. However, there are so many variables with the human body's anatomical differences, shooting style and equipment. 

RonW's posts are absolutely spot on along with Nuts and Bolts (as always). 

These formulas help shops get archers and bowhunters within the correct range so they can sell the equipment. Once a person learns to shoot relatively well they will inherently start fine tuning things including draw lengths to get them to the next level of proficiency.

Your shot execution should ultimately dictate the fine tuning of your draw length.

After 30 years of archery, I am having more fun than ever!


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

For the love of God and Jesus as my mechanic !
Equations for draw length will get you in the ball park ! 
Some closer to center field than others ! 

Can some one give me the equation to shoot a 900 vegas with a 31" DL , hung over , with 7 escort services running my wifes credit cards ?


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

dua lam pa said:


> For the love of God and Jesus as my mechanic !
> Equations for draw length will get you in the ball park !
> Some closer to center field than others !
> 
> Can some one give me the equation to shoot a 900 vegas with a 31" DL , hung over , with 7 escort services running my wifes credit cards ?


Alka Seltzer, Gatorade, shoot with your eyes crossed and pray.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dua lam pa said:


> For the love of God and Jesus as my mechanic !
> Equations for draw length will get you in the ball park !
> Some closer to center field than others !
> 
> Can some one give me the equation to shoot a 900 vegas with a 31" DL , hung over , with 7 escort services running my wifes credit cards ?


Let's not forget, equations that get you in the ball park don't necessarily mean that the same ball park can be transferred to another brand or model of bow. Just might be a little right or left of center field  

Can't answer your question without further info....like what time did you get up, when is your shooting time, your wife brunette, red head, or blond?

How did we get to this? Intermediate-Advanced Competition Archery; 1+1 = 2. We get past Sandbox...Kindergarten's going to thin us out...


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