# Tiller and Aiming



## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Just curious on the tiller setting that my fellow finger shooters use. It may sound odd but my bow tends to hold the steadiest with 1/2 turn increase on the top limb. that would mean less measured distance on the top limb. Anyone else use the tiller adjustment for better hold and aiming more steady? I shoot 2 under the nock of the arrow.


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

I always tiller tune my bows. A trick learned from Frank Pearson. It does wounders for your hold.
Charlie


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

3/16 positive tiller...... I always start with a flat tiller and go back to fifty yards and start shooting arrows and putting 1/8" of a turn on the bottom limb until I get what I want as hold. When the sight stops in the middle rather than bobbing up or down, I stop too.... Seems to have worked for me for around thirty years. I've seen the old pie plate Frank Pearson thing on his secrets of the Pros video a long time ago..


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Tiller*

I tune my tiller by (repeatedly) shooting 5 arrow groups at 40 or 50 yards. When its right, my groups are as tight as I can get them. Arrows grouped across the target face, its too close to even. Arrows grouped up and down the target face, too close at the bottom. This has always worked for me on a two cam bow. The bow seems easier to aim when its right, it usually ends up a smidgen over 1/8.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

unclegus,

So you have your tiller with the bottom limb stronger? Correct? When you say positive tiller, does that mean that the bottom limb is stronger?


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

IBBW

What do you mean a smidgen over 1/8? Is your top or bottom limb stronger?


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

My tiller measurement is longer at the top. When you change tiller, all you are doing is changing the relationship of the riser to the limbs as it sits in your hand... AT least that's the way I see it. If I'm wrong someone please correct me. One limb being tighter than the other is offset by the change in angle of the riser to the limbs , so the limbs are being pulled on equally  Any way, it works for me....


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*Angle of the dangle*

That is what I have always understood is that you are tuning the relationship between the angle of the riser and the limbs. I think that the way the archer grips the bow, low, high, med. etc can effect which tiller setting will be optimum. If you atake a recurve and darw you can change the way the limbs bend just by changing your grip. I shoot a low wrist grip, and I am shooting reverse tiller from the textbook, 1/8 less diatnce on bottom limb. My Martin Scepter held the best with 3/4 more turn on top limb. 

Unclegus,

What style of wrist do you shoot? High, low, med? Do you shoot split finger?


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I shoot a pretty low grip and split finger.


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

The string is closer to the bottom limb around a 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch (on a two cam bow), I shoot 3 split. BUT I let my long distance shooting determine where it is set, not a measurement. 

My Oneidas are even tiller shooters only. A whole other animal. I have never messed with it but I have been told tiller tuning CAN be done on one cam bows as well.


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## VintageGold (Apr 29, 2004)

*Tiller Tuning*

Wouldn't a possitive/negitive tiller adjustments mess with the cam/wheel timing?

Nick


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## jmoose77 (Apr 3, 2004)

Way back when dinosours roamed the earth and I was shooting Hoyt/Eastons :wink:.... I seem to remember Hoyt recommened a 1/8" tiller. Bows were more geared for the finger shooter then and now they call for a even tiller. 
I still seem to have around a 1/8" tiller after tuning also.


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## VintageGold (Apr 29, 2004)

I believe you’re right. If memory serves me correctly the bottom limbs were shorter than the top due to the riser design, I know that was a fact for take down recurves, but most of the bows manufactured recently have equal distance if measured from the pivot point.

I shot zero tiller on my recurve and didn’t experience the sight bobbing up or down when I drew it back with a one over two under release.

Nick


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*wheel timing*

I believe it does effect timing of the wheels/cam. If you find the tiller setting that is the best aiming you can time the cams there. I know David Hughes for stringwalkin will set his tiller even then adjust the wheel timing to compensate for walkin down the string to get the best balance in his crawls. The 1/8 less distance on the bottom limb or stronger bottom limb has been the "standard" for a split finger release. Many of the 3 under shooters, recurve and compound shoot more even tiller. 

I had heard that in the old days of recurve barebow and some of the compound shooters would reverse the limbs to get the top limb stronger for stringwalking. I find that with my top limb stronger I aim more steady. I know it is the opposite of the "textbook". I need to group shoot at longer distance to check different settings. I know if you change tiller it will move the nockset.

Jeff


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

dragonheart said:


> I believe it does effect timing of the wheels/cam. If you find the tiller setting that is the best aiming you can time the cams there. I know David Hughes for stringwalkin will set his tiller even then adjust the wheel timing to compensate for walkin down the string to get the best balance in his crawls. The 1/8 less distance on the bottom limb or stronger bottom limb has been the "standard" for a split finger release. Many of the 3 under shooters, recurve and compound shoot more even tiller.
> 
> I had heard that in the old days of recurve barebow and some of the compound shooters would reverse the limbs to get the top limb stronger for stringwalking. I find that with my top limb stronger I aim more steady. I know it is the opposite of the "textbook". I need to group shoot at longer distance to check different settings. I know if you change tiller it will move the nockset.
> 
> Jeff


I no longer tiller tune, just set the limbs even. I creep tune the cam timing like a release shooter. I have found that I get very good arrow flight when the top cam is two turns earlier than the bottom. I think this is because I shoot two finger under and kind of weak spine arrows. To me, at least on the newer bows, Tiller only fine tunes the nock set. The older two cams and single cam bows I tiller tuned. dd


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

*Tiller*



DDSHOOTER said:


> I no longer tiller tune, just set the limbs even. I creep tune the cam timing like a release shooter. I have found that I get very good arrow flight when the top cam is two turns earlier than the bottom. I think this is because I shoot two finger under and kind of weak spine arrows. To me, at least on the newer bows, Tiller only fine tunes the nock set. The older two cams and single cam bows I tiller tuned. dd


I also creep tune the cams also. When I get my Aspen rebuilt with cams on it, I creep tune at 40 yrds. With a Martin Sceptor and fury cams I had the cams primo tuned, both arrows hitting the dot creeeping all the way to front of the valley. 

Question: Have you found any rhyme or reason to twisting up one side of the buss cable or the other to effect the left right impact of the "creeped" shot arrow? I have always thought that if you added the twist to only one side when you get really close to being in tune, you could tune for up down and left right. What are your thoughts?


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

I creep tune, more or less, to accomadate my type of release. To me twisting one side of the buss cable evens out the limb tips if their is any twist in them which may help with right or lefts, but most of the time gets rid of cam lean because of a offset cable slide. However, I have read hear that tiller tuning is all about making the bow hold steadier at full draw. I have not investigated this very much. But holding steady is the key to both up & down and right & left fliers. I read that you start with both limbs even then 1/8" trun at a time on the top limb, but no more than full 1/2 turn off. If holding is still not steadier, then return it to even and do the same with the bottom limb. I think this may be old school because back in the day were you had to be a PRO shooter to have perfect matching deflections on both top and bottom limbs. Adjusting them slighty off from each other made them even on some cam system. Also, I was once told by a Local Pro back in 1992 that he tiller tune by shooting groups of arrows at 50 yards and adjusting limb as discribed above. But today limbs are better matched that I think this is no longer a issue. dd


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

thanks for the info!


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Here is a past thread on the tiller question.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

ttt


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## fingers (May 27, 2002)

Tiller determines the pressure as the bow sits in your hand. As you want your hand in the most relaxed state so that each shot is repeatable, you want the tiller to be set so that there isn't any "hand fight" involved in aiming.Each archer has their own skeletal structure thus it will be specific for each individual. That is what Frank Pearson's method is all about. Timing of the cams and wheels is an adjustment on nock travel, whether it raises or lowers or stays straight on the shot. It is not the same as the effects of tillering. I like to first adjust limb tilt by twisting the yoke, then timing by twisting the cables, then tiller by turning the limb bolts, then bare shaft tune by equally turning limb bolts(plus nock adjustments), then adjusting my sight setting.


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

I'll admit that I haven't read all the posts in the thread but... while at the range this past weekend I helped another archer tiller tune his bow for the purpose of holding steady.

The process;

#1. Place a pen-lazer on the end of stabilizer, draw & hold on a target while I watched the lazer-beam's movement on an unrelated spot on the bail, far enough away from the aiming spot so he wouldn't be influenced by the beam's movement. Let down.

#2. Make a tiller adjustment (one flat at a time) to the limb of your choice, positive or negative, re-draw & hold on the target again. Check results of that adjustment. If things got better, make another adjustment, worse, reverse directions on the adjustment, re-draw & hold again.

We did this until the movement the least.

Of course we went beyond each setting just to make sure the tiller setting that looked the best really was the one that worked the best.


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Whare did he wind up? Stronger on the bottom?


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## Boyd (Feb 7, 2003)

dragonheart said:


> Whare did he wind up? Stronger on the bottom?


Yes. Slight "Positive" tiller. (measurment from string to riser shorter on bottom)


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Here is a exerciser to try:

Instead of measuring from string to inside of limb; Try measuring to lenght of the riser, from limb pocket to limb pocket and find the center point of the riser (should be around the center point of the throat of the grip area). Mark that point with a very small felt tip marker. Now measure the top limb's axle (to the outside) to the center point grip mark and record that measurement, then do the same to the bottom limb. If both measurements are even Then its even tiller. I have been playing around with different setting and have measured several different bows and have asked their shooters how they hold this particular bow and if it is their best shooting bow. Most articles I have read say that it's trial and error kind of adjustment depending on the shooter's style, which it why I really haven't paid to much attention too, until now. But if this measurement is even them it seems that the bow like even hand pressure. In some cases the limbs measured even both on top and bottom when measured from the string to the inside of the limb ( the old way) I believe these bows had match limb deflection. I found one of my bows to be off by a 1/8" on the bottom limb, which caused me to have to shoot it high wrist, and not real steady. 

Anyway, Try it and see if I am right or wrong. dd


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

Guys.....I think you may be inspecting your black pepper for fly sh*%....

Jeff, I know you are a good enough shooter to hold where you want to when you want to! Shooting Barebow and walking the string, the tiller is re-adjusted with every shot! If all this tiller tuning was really something to take into account, how have archers, like David Hughes - Dennie Cline and several other notable barebow shooters managed to shoot the 500+ scores through the years. Set the tiller for best arrow flight, make sure it doesn't change from that setting (other than while you are actually manipulating the string) and LEARN that bow. I can hold steady as a rock just low of the dot on any NFAA target, but for the life of me can rarely get up to the dot and hold it THERE. I get close enough most of the time to shoot decently. Put your hand into the grip as consistently relaxed the same way every shot as you can and DO NOT worry about tiller. Learning to hold comes from practice and not accepting a mediocre level of accuracy from yourself. The bow will shoot in the same hole every shot if YOU can hold there. Sorry if this rains on someones parade....and...as always, your mileage may vary!


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

fuelracerpat said:


> Guys.....I think you may be inspecting your black pepper for fly sh*%....
> 
> Jeff, I know you are a good enough shooter to hold where you want to when you want to! Shooting Barebow and walking the string, the tiller is re-adjusted with every shot! If all this tiller tuning was really something to take into account, how have archers, like David Hughes - Dennie Cline and several other notable barebow shooters managed to shoot the 500+ scores through the years. Set the tiller for best arrow flight, make sure it doesn't change from that setting (other than while you are actually manipulating the string) and LEARN that bow. I can hold steady as a rock just low of the dot on any NFAA target, but for the life of me can rarely get up to the dot and hold it THERE. I get close enough most of the time to shoot decently. Put your hand into the grip as consistently relaxed the same way every shot as you can and DO NOT worry about tiller. Learning to hold comes from practice and not accepting a mediocre level of accuracy from yourself. The bow will shoot in the same hole every shot if YOU can hold there. Sorry if this rains on someones parade....and...as always, your mileage may vary!


Pat,

In stringwalking many of the former champions knew very well about tiller. There is no magic to it. They shot those scores, I would be wiling to bet by finding a tiller setting that worked for there set up. I agree with you that most any settting will work just to shoot an arrow. What is the optumun for accuracy, for your setup and how do you find that setting? 

I have a chart from years ago that all of the barebow champions from the late 80' early 90's. The tiller setting ranged all over the place from positive, even, to negative. The nock point and point-ons ranges all over the place. barebow is a very individual type of tune, due to the nature of taking the bow "into a differnt tune", everytime you crawl a different distance. You are right if you hold it there, it will shoot the same place, no doubt. If you can add or subtract weight from one limb or the other to find the setting that gives you the steadiest aiming, that is what we are looking for. In stringwalking everything is an average. Experimenting with tiller setting I believe can be beneficial, but once found, needs to be left alone for a given set-up. (I need to take my own advice here). 

Love the "black pepper" thing at the top. LOL!


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

Jeff ---
I would love to see that chart!


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## dragonheart (Jul 18, 2008)

Pat,

I have several articles and information about stringwalking. I will make copies for you and bring them to state. :thumbs_up


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

cool! I'll be there.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

dragonheart said:


> Pat,
> 
> In stringwalking many of the former champions knew very well about tiller. There is no magic to it. They shot those scores, I would be wiling to bet by finding a tiller setting that worked for there set up. I agree with you that most any settting will work just to shoot an arrow. What is the optumun for accuracy, for your setup and how do you find that setting?
> 
> ...


It seems to me that matching limb deflection or the lack of, has a biggest effect on tiller. Has anyone tried measuring it the way I have outlined? Just asking. I was suprised to find that not very many bows had even tiller when Just backing out limb bolts evenly as most Proshop do. dd


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## ceebee (Dec 3, 2002)

Does anyone have the old video tapes " Secrets Of The Pros" by Frank Pearson? I have vol. one and three, but number two is long gone. It deals with tiller tuning and I would like to get a copy of number two for our club library. I will buy it or a copy to complete the series. I still tiller tune my bows using this method. It is close to group tuning but a little better, I think. If anyone has this tape, please send me a message. 
Ceebee


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