# Arrow Penetration Tests!!!!!



## Santa Closs

Here is the results of a few tests theroguett and I performed this weekend with varying arrows. Next will be broadhead accuracy tests.

Arrow comparison tests

Carbon express. Total arrow weight with 100 grain tip

Mayhem hunter 430.2
Maxima hunter 450 dual spine. 418.2
Maxima hunter 350 dual spine with blazer wrap. 405
Maxima hunter 350 dual spine no wrap. 402.8
Maxima hunter blue streak 350 dual spine. 373.5

Easton axis n fused carbon. 432.1

Victory archery VAP 350 373.5


All arrows were shot from a Mathews Z7 extreme with a 29.5 in. Draw at 70 lbs. 
Distance to target was 20 yards

Test one:

9 phone books stacked together thickness of phone books was 3/4 inch each. 

Test two :

A brand new Glenn del full rut 3 d target that had never been shot

Test three was a 3/4 treated piece of plywood 4 ft by 4 ft. Tilted back at an 80 degree
Angle : 

All shots fired at 20 yds. Results in inches of penetration. 

Phone books penetration 

Mayhem hunter at 430.2 grains. 3 3/4 in penetration 
Maxima hunter 450 dual spine at 418.2 grains. 4 7/8 in penetration
Maxima hunter 350 & blazer wrap 405 grains 4 in penetration 
Maxima hunter 350 no wrap 402.8 grains. 4 1/2 in penetration
C/x blue streak dual spine 373.5 grains 4 1/16 in penetration
Easton axis n fused carbon 432.1 grains. 4 7/8 in penetration
Victory VAP 350 at 373.5 grains. 6 1/4 in penetration


Glen del target penetration foam

Mayhem hunter 430.2 grains. 10 1/2 inches penetration
Maxima hunter 450 dual spine 418.2 grains. 10 1/4 inches penetration
Maxima hunter 350 with blazer wrap 405 grains. 10 inches penetration
Maxima hunter 350 no wrap. 402.8 grains. 11 1/2 inches penetration
C/x blue streak dual spine 373.5 grains. 11 inches penetration
Easton axis n fused carbon 432.1 grains. 10 3/4 in penetration
Victory VAP 350 at 373.5 grains. 13 3/4 in penetration

3/4 in treated plywood 4 x 4 sheet tilted back at 80 degree angle at 20 yds

Mayhem hunter 430.2 grains. 11 inches
Maxima hunter 450 dual spine 418.2 grains. 9 1/2 inches x 3 shots
Maxima hunter 350 with blazer wraps 405 grains 11 3/4 inches
Maxima hunter 350 no wraps 402.8 grains. 13 inches
C/x blue streak dual spine 373.5 grains. 11 1/2 inches
Easton axis n fused carbon 432.1 grains. 12 1/2 inches
Victory VAP 350 at 373.5 grains Complete penetration went into ground 4 ft behind target


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## alarmguy38

Go Victory!


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## freefall619

I have been a believer for a long time. Victroy VAP is my hunting arrow of choice.


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## henro

I have a feeling the OD on the VAP's had more to do with it than anything. That's the shaft I'll be shooting this year. You should post what the FOC was on each arrow as well.


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## bow_hunter44

henro said:


> I have a feeling the OD on the VAP's had more to do with it than anything. That's the shaft I'll be shooting this year. You should post what the FOC was on each arrow as well.


Good comment. If the arrows were all the same length, since the VAP was the lightest it would have the highest FOC.


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## doegirl

Test after test those VAP's really shine for penetration.
I'm might just cave in and get some for myself.
I can play with point weight, fletching, and wraps, and lighted nocks to alter the FOC and see what difference it makes, if any.


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## burner11

have you tested any easton fmj ?


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## JParcher

What about the a/c/c arrows? Interested in VAP 350's although they might be a little light for a ~70 lb bow looking to rig up for elk. Thoughts?


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## JParcher

Will say the jump in penetration with the VAP's is impressive though...that in itself can allow for a lighter arrow and weight can be gained with wraps or a heavier point.


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## BLACK WOLF

Santa Closs said:


> Here is the results of a few tests theroguett and I performed this weekend with varying arrows. Next will be broadhead accuracy tests.


Was each arrow bareshaft tested to check to see how in tune they were with your set up?

If you didn't bareshaft tune...what tuning method did you use?

Can you measure the outside diameter of each arrow?

One of the BIGGEST factors that determines an arrow's penetrating potential is how ell it is tuned to the bow. ANother can be shaft diameter.

An arrow that isn't tuned properly or as exqually as another arrow will loose a lot of energy when it comes in contact with a target do to the archer's paradox and how bad the arrow is fish tailing. Even slight differences can make a difference.

Ray :shade:


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## MIKEY CUSTOM-G

BLACK WOLF said:


> Was each arrow bareshaft tested to check to see how in tune they were with your set up?
> 
> If you didn't bareshaft tune...what tuning method did you use?
> 
> Can you measure the outside diameter of each arrow?
> 
> One of the BIGGEST factors that determines an arrow's penetrating potential is how ell it is tuned to the bow. ANother can be shaft diameter.
> 
> An arrow that isn't tuned properly or as exqually as another arrow will loose a lot of energy when it comes in contact with a target do to the archer's paradox and how bad the arrow is fish tailing. Even slight differences can make a difference.
> 
> Ray :shade:


I happen to agree that an arrow will always penetrate better when it is tuned to the bow,one of the best ways is paper tuning a bullet hole. If the shot arrow has any sort of wiggle,kick or porpoising it will cause a loss of penetration being it is not going in a straight and direct line but instead goes with a wobble.

Also penetration can be hampered if on the shot,the bow is moving up,down or left and right,this also will cause the arrow to kick.


I would have to say the best way to do this test might be with a Hooter Shooter in order to take the human element out of it after the bow has been paper tuned with each arrow.

A test like this might takes days to do to eliminate alot of the variables.

not saying anything about Victory arrows,,,but they might be the last arrow I personally would pick to hunt with from the aforementioned tested arrows. I have HEARD,have not EXPERIENCED i might add some horror stories with quality control with victory arrows. Not saying they are not good,,,,just saying I have heard some issues. Victory very well might be the best of this bunch for penetration,,,,but I would say the blue streak is a hard arrow based on +/- tolerances to beat.

In any event ,,,thank you guys for your hard work and long hours to try to find some answers for us hunters.


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## Mxracer532

I would agree with the pos above! The BlueStreak took it to ALOT heavier arrows.


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## jpeeps1

Just wondering but what about k/e vs speed. Indians did it in the beginning taking big game without speed and a well placed shot. I still don't get the hype on arrow speed when accuracy is the most important thing. I'm a short draw guy shooting maybe 220 fps at 27.5 dl with my easton eclipse arrows at less than 60 lbs.


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## flyinguy18

I shoot VAPs and can confirm great penetration. I haven't shot them outside enough to check this but have been told that they fly very well in wind (less drift) due to smaller diameter... Another big plus is that the VAPs are cheaper... (Only $8.50/arrow fletched including field point where I bought mine)


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## theroguett

burner11 said:


> have you tested any easton fmj ?



In all honesty no, I am not advicate of Victory archery, I only tried to disprove that I should consider Victory arrows, becasue I am a carbon express hunter for many years, however I feel that the Eaxton axis infused carbon shaft, is a fair arrow diameter in comparison to the victory, so that is why i chose, it also, the easton axis, was much heavier that the victory, yet the victory out penetrated it. In answer to the question about the FMJ. I looked at this arrow, I may be incorrect but the bow shop explained to me that this arrow is part aluminum, & part carbon. I chose only as a personal preference not to use this arrow, because once aluminum is bent however slightly, it's bent. I wanted to use all carbons for my testing. To me carbon is either broke or straight. Thanks for your question


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## theroguett

henro said:


> I have a feeling the OD on the VAP's had more to do with it than anything. That's the shaft I'll be shooting this year. You should post what the FOC was on each arrow as well.


I will go back & do some FOC calculations, of these arrows, As i may have mentioned, I have used carbon express arrows for many years, So i was trying to prove to myself why I should even consider another shaft, but in test after test, The victory arrow, out penetrated every arrow, I believe that the easton axis n fused carbon shaft, was a fair apple, to apple comparison, If shaft diameter is the biggest consideration. Also, the Easton axis, was much heavier in arrow weight, which in my mind should retain more momentum, & be harder to stop, however the lighter Victory outpenetrated. All arrows tested. In regards to tuning, my bow was papertuned at 5, 10, & 15 feet with the carbon express arrows, SO the easton axis, n fused carbon, & the victory arrow I test were actually probably coming out of the bow, nock high, & entering the target the same way, Had I tuned to the smaller Diameter shafts, I may have actually had even more penetration. Hope this helps.


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## theroguett

JParcher said:


> What about the a/c/c arrows? Interested in VAP 350's although they might be a little light for a ~70 lb bow looking to rig up for elk. Thoughts?


I too was worried about shooting a light arrow because I am a mid west whitetail hunter, & i care the most about accuracy, & penetration, NOT speed. I wanted to see how a light VAP a V6 would perform compared to other arrows, I have used carbon express for years. After testing, I purchased the V1 with the new ICE coating, which are straighter, & slicker, like buff tuff. I too have been a skeptic about change, but if you could seen my face after shooting a 4X4 Sheet of 3/4 in. treated plywood tilted back to approx. 80 degrees, & that VAP was a complete pass thru, I had no vanes left, I don't know of any deer shoulder out there that can handle that. 
My V1's at 28.5 inches, plus the 5/16 insert, which is 10 grains heaver than the insert i test on my test, my total arrow weight is now 392 grains. Out of my Mathews Z7 extreme, at 70 lbs. 29.5 in draw, My chrony says 294.5. my momentum factor is .511 KE 75 fp of KE. To answer the question about ACC arrows or FMJ's I think they are great arrows, I just don't like the idea that both arrows if i am correct are part aluminum, & part carbon, I am afraid of the part alumium aspect, because slightly bent, for me, means accuracy issues. So for me all carbon shafts, just as my personal preference, to me carbon is either broke or straight. But it's personal preference.


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## theroguett

BLACK WOLF said:


> Was each arrow bareshaft tested to check to see how in tune they were with your set up?
> 
> If you didn't bareshaft tune...what tuning method did you use?
> 
> Can you measure the outside diameter of each arrow?
> 
> 
> 
> One of the BIGGEST factors that determines an arrow's penetrating potential is how ell it is tuned to the bow. ANother can be shaft diameter.
> 
> An arrow that isn't tuned properly or as exqually as another arrow will loose a lot of energy when it comes in contact with a target do to the archer's paradox and how bad the arrow is fish tailing. Even slight differences can make a difference.
> 
> Ray :shade:


No i'm sorry i do not do raw shaft tuning however I can say that I had tuned the carbon express arrows to shoot bullets at 5, 10, & 15 feet, the easton axis, & the VAPs were probably coming out of the bow nock high, & hitting the target the same way, Had i adjusted height of the rest, I would think that I may have had even better penetration. What sold me was shooting an arrow into a 4X4 sheet of treated 3/4 inch plywood tilted back to approx 80 degrees, & blowing all the way past it, & hitting the ground 4 feet behind the target, No vanes left. & insert was not bend I spun it on my spinner after the shot.


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## theroguett

MIKEY CUSTOM-G said:


> I happen to agree that an arrow will always penetrate better when it is tuned to the bow,one of the best ways is paper tuning a bullet hole. If the shot arrow has any sort of wiggle,kick or porpoising it will cause a loss of penetration being it is not going in a straight and direct line but instead goes with a wobble.
> 
> Also penetration can be hampered if on the shot,the bow is moving up,down or left and right,this also will cause the arrow to kick.
> 
> 
> I would have to say the best way to do this test might be with a Hooter Shooter in order to take the human element out of it after the bow has been paper tuned with each arrow.
> 
> A test like this might takes days to do to eliminate alot of the variables.
> 
> not saying anything about Victory arrows,,,but they might be the last arrow I personally would pick to hunt with from the aforementioned tested arrows. I have HEARD,have not EXPERIENCED i might add some horror stories with quality control with victory arrows. Not saying they are not good,,,,just saying I have heard some issues. Victory very well might be the best of this bunch for penetration,,,,but I would say the blue streak is a hard arrow based on +/- tolerances to beat.
> 
> In any event ,,,thank you guys for your hard work and long hours to try to find some answers for us hunters.


I shot a buck in Illinois with a 28.5 inch Carbon Express Blue streak at 8 yds. my total arrow weight was 373.5 grains of arrow weight my KE was well over 74 ft. lbs of KE. It was paper tuned to shoot bullets. The animal I shot was broadside, & I harvested the animal but got poor penetration, even though I hit only ribs. I too love carbon express & their QA however, trying to have an open mind, & trying to prove to myself why I should even consider another arrow, I purchased one of every arrow at different weights for this test, I tried to be as fair to carbon express as I could, I also chose the easton axis n fused carbon with the smaller diameter to be a more apple to apple comparison. & despite my best efforts the VAP out penetrated in every test i did. Is their QA as good I cannot say, They say that shaft weight wont vary more than a half a grain per arrow, I must say that is better than carbon express, at Plus or minus 1 grain. but this is a small detail. I do not work for Victory, I am just a consumer that wants to hunt mid west whitetails, I care about accuracy & penetration. I do not own a mechanical shooting machine, however, as listed in my thread, all tests were fired from same bow, at 20 yds. using, 70 lbs. at a 29.5 inch. draw. I encourage you to do as I did, purchase one of any arrow on the market that u think is good, perform these tests for yourself. You too will be amazed & what you find & be forced to ask yourself some tough questions.


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## theroguett

jpeeps1 said:


> Just wondering but what about k/e vs speed. Indians did it in the beginning taking big game without speed and a well placed shot. I still don't get the hype on arrow speed when accuracy is the most important thing. I'm a short draw guy shooting maybe 220 fps at 27.5 dl with my easton eclipse arrows at less than 60 lbs.


I agree with you accurcy & penetration, are the two most important things to me as a bowhunter. Speed is nice but KE is a calculation based upon total arrow weight, & FPS. However not too many archers take the time to look at the Momentum factor, to see where it is. IF you are driving down the interstate & Jump out in front of me & I hit you with a ford focus, then, repeat the same secanario with a semi truck, the heavier truck would be harder to stop, You can find calculators for momentum at www. archeryreport.com then click on calulators. I have read that as a rule of thumb, that a momentum factor of .5 is good for penetration, & most mid west whitetail set ups.
You can kill an animal with a practice tip, if you hit it correctly, but the purpose of my thread, was simply as a consumer, just say do some testing of your own, see what u find. you could be surprised.


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## theroguett

My Friend Jason & I posted this thread, as consumers, we work for nobody, just a couple of guys, who probably read too much & watch too many You Tube videos. HOWEVER, was every aspect of human error removed from each test no, was every FOC exactly the same no, I did this test to prove to my friend Jason why Carbon Express arrows were better, than VAP's. I feel that using multiple arrow weights from carbon express with dual spine, & using the same bow, same distance, & new targets for the three test performed was fair. After testing for the common man, the results are clear, the easton axis n fused carbon, & the Vap out penetrated every other shaft test. I understand that they are smaller in diameter, BUT the VAP was also much lighter, at 373.5 grains with tip. Where as the easton axis tested was much heavier at 429 grains with tip. So all things considered, It was hard for me to stay with the highly promoted carbon express arrow line. Also to call Carbon express arrow weight forward users, try this test, get out your digital scale, find the exact middle of your arrow, then cut in into two, then weigh the front of the arrow, & then weigh the back of the arrow, if it's true that the there is more weight in the front of the arrow as promoted by carbon express then the front of the shaft should be heavier. I tried this & found that the back of the shaft is actually a little bit heavier. This makes no sense to me. I loved my carbon express arrows, I have used maxima hunters. blue streaks, & mayhems, But after the test on the 3/4 inch treated plywood tilted back to approx 80 degrees, & seeing how much more penetration I go using the VAP's i had to ask myself some tough questions. Good luck to all, Thanks for you questions. Try it for yourself


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## bowdawg hunter

what VAP arrows? 

the ones with the penetrator end? or V1, V2, etc?

thanks


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## Santa Closs

bowdawg hunter said:


> what VAP arrows?
> 
> the ones with the penetrator end? or V1, V2, etc?
> 
> thanks


The VAP tested was the V6 with the 9/32 penetrator insert. I called Victory Archery to see and told them about our test we were going to do and asked them if it would make a difference if I used a V6 and saved the money instead of buying a V1 since we were just going to smash it. He said for our purposes a V6 would suffice. We bought two V6's for our tests. For our hunting arrows we went with the V1's and the 5/16 penetrator inserts.


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## mtnmutt

Thank you for taking the time to do the test and post your results.

Now I am thinking about getting some Victory arrows because the Easton FMJ may not last long. My GT arrows would either be ruined from either Robinhood or missing a 3D where they broke in half. I only had to fix fletchings. I guess Easton FMJ (carbon/Aluminum) will end up bent and I don't have the funds to keep replacing them. I bought the Easton FMJ to get a higher KE for elk hunting.

Although you didn't post your KE for each arrow, here is something to help others
KE = ((arrow grains) x (fps x fps)) / 450,240
speed (fps) squared times arrow weight (grains) and finally divided by 450,240.
bowsite has an online calculator.

bowsite for elk says minimum 42 to 65 KE ft lbs, but an article by Chuck Adams said women 45 to 50 KE and men higher. I failed to note what he said for minimum men KE hunting elk. I think the article was in Bugle (RMEF magazine).


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## theroguett

For those who are interested I will post in the future from my testing, all FOC calculations, as well as Ke from each arrow shot from bow & velocitys from arrows shot through my Chrony, I will go one step further & list the momentum factor of each arrows. Which most archers pay NO attention at all but is very important, you can find a calulator for this at www.archeryreport.com & click on calculators, there you can list your total arrow weight, your velocity in FPS from your chrony, & it will calculate your Momentum factor for you. 
Many people quote where they believe their KE should be for various animal species, Not too many will post what their Momentum factor numbers are. I spoke to Mike Larson from archery report, his recommendation is a momentum factor of .50 for Mid west to larger game species.


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## andy6228

Interesting test. I was surprised by how much difference there was between the 350 Maxima hunter with wrap and without wrap.


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## theroguett

theroguett said:


> For those who are interested I will post in the future from my testing, all FOC calculations, as well as Ke from each arrow shot from bow & velocitys from arrows shot through my Chrony, I will go one step further & list the momentum factor of each arrows. Which most archers pay NO attention at all but is very important, you can find a calulator for this at www.archeryreport.com & click on calculators, there you can list your total arrow weight, your velocity in FPS from your chrony, & it will calculate your Momentum factor for you.
> Many people quote where they believe their KE should be for various animal species, Not too many will post what their Momentum factor numbers are. I spoke to Mike Larson from archery report, his recommendation is a momentum factor of .50 for Mid west to larger game species.


Many people use the blazer wraps to add additional weight to their arrow, I am not saying that this is good or bad idea. If you weigh them they weigh around 23-26 grains, this is 3 blazers including the wrap material. So only other question you may want to consider is if your Front of Center is where you want it or not. The disadvantage of using the wrap is you can add additional total arrow weight to your shaft, & this is what we did, to add weight, & also just to compare it for archers who commonly use these wraps, again not to say they are good or bad. Just that we used them to add weight.


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## LvToHunt

Curious what the results would be if you stepped back further, say 40yds. Good job onthe test BTW. I'd like to do simlar testing but am working waaay too many hours.


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## badbow148

Thank you for the tests and good info.


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## Santa Closs

We tried out some Arrow Dynamic arrows and here are the results:

1 st arrow that was never shot weighed 435 grains. With tip vanes all of it. 2 nd arrow & this one was shot weighed 368.8 grains it was compared to the VAP at 367 grains. The FOC On the arrow dynamics was still slightly above 12 % when compared to the VAP. At 14.94% FOC. Both arrows were shot at 20 yds at same mediums as prior testing phone books, glen del target, & 3/4 in osb plywood tilted back to approx 80 degrees. Bow used again was a Mathews Z7 extreme at 29.5 in draw set to 70 lbs draw weight at 80% let off.

Results from testing was that the arrow dynamics arrow performed as well as the VAP in all tests & actually went into plywood about an inch deeper. However the arrow dynamics arrow had a flaw. This company uses a brass insert for their practice tip or Broadhead to insert into. We found that it mushroomed slightly & was unable to unscrew practice tip at the end of testing. I would recommend this arrow as a competitor to the VAP. The arrow dynamics enables the hunter to get around the penetrator insert issue with the VAP however the brass insert used by the arrow dynamics arrow has its own issues. Both of these arrow would be an excellent choice for the bow hunter who is looking for the ultimate in penetration in their hunting setup !!!!


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## rupejosh

mtnmutt said:


> Thank you for taking the time to do the test and post your results.
> 
> Now I am thinking about getting some Victory arrows because the Easton FMJ may not last long. My GT arrows would either be ruined from either Robinhood or missing a 3D where they broke in half. I only had to fix fletchings. I guess Easton FMJ (carbon/Aluminum) will end up bent and I don't have the funds to keep replacing them. I bought the Easton FMJ to get a higher KE for elk hunting.
> 
> Although you didn't post your KE for each arrow, here is something to help others
> KE = ((arrow grains) x (fps x fps)) / 450,240
> speed (fps) squared times arrow weight (grains) and finally divided by 450,240.
> bowsite has an online calculator.
> 
> bowsite for elk says minimum 42 to 65 KE ft lbs, but an article by Chuck Adams said women 45 to 50 KE and men higher. I failed to note what he said for minimum men KE hunting elk. I think the article was in Bugle (RMEF magazine).


so women can kill elk with lower ke than guys can huh? ke this ke that. how bout you just take better shots i know things just happen but what was the ke on a longbow an indian used to take down buffalo? how many people really NEED huge amounts of it? dont get me wrong its nice to have but people ke overboard.


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## Santa Closs

rupejosh said:


> so women can kill elk with lower ke than guys can huh? ke this ke that. how bout you just take better shots i know things just happen but what was the ke on a longbow an indian used to take down buffalo? how many people really NEED huge amounts of it? dont get me wrong its nice to have but people ke overboard.


Indians put 5+ arrows in buffalo. I like to just shoot once.


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## panther2307

if you happen to get the chance i would like to see how well some of the gold tip arrows perform.i am interested in buying some of them but would also consider the victory arrows as well,thanks.


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## buckdeer13

Gold tip!!!


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## RGV hunter

I have used Victory 300s V3 with my set up and have never been disappointed. I really like them and are very affordable.


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## RGV hunter

I have used Victory 300s V3 with my set up and have never been disappointed. I really like them and are very affordable.


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## Pete53

very nice tests, and I have done some testing myself also on deer over the years hunting,even shot one with a carbon express with a flattened spoon and sharpened by hand to prove a well placed shot is the most important part.over the years using both expandables- fixed heads and hand sharpened heads like zwickeys and with the zwickey head I used 2219 aluminums they were slow 240 fps at 65 lbs but they were very quiet and accurate .the one comment or what I did find over many years bowhunting was a hand sharpened fixed blade broadhead always put more blood on the ground than the other heads and did seem to kill them somewhat quicker too. I do wish you all a great safe hunting season too !


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