# Advice on arrow spine



## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

I'm shooting an Ion-x with Quattro 28# long limbs, 27# OTF, 29.5" draw. 900 Carbon ones at 29.5". The Easton guide says I should be at 700, but bare shaft at 20 yards puts the bare shafts left by about 4 to 6 inches, so too stiff. So one thing tells me one thing and the other tells me something else. Now I want to buy some Victory VAP V1 arrows, their guide recommends 700 or maybe 600 spine.

What to do! What to do?


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## remyrw (Jun 7, 2017)

Easton and Victory (and probably others, but I was just looking at both this weekend) show several steps stiff on their charts at lower poundages. Check Easton's youth chart, it's closer to correct at these weights.
You're probably not THAT far off with the 900's though, maybe just need a heavier point and lighter on the tail if you've got wraps and heavier vanes. I was checking for 28# with 28" draw and 28-28.5" total arrow length and SFA put me at 1000 or 1150 depending on point weight and exact details of draw vs arrow length. I started digging into it when SFA gave a very different spine suggestion than the chart. I was also looking at the VAP's, specifically the VAP Target Gamers, and Carbon One's. I'm shooting way over spined XX75's right now because it's what the shop had in the right length and ready to go. If I ever decide to shoot a 60lb recurve I'm all set.

I think Victory just used Easton's chart for that section, converted to their products.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Charles - 


Ah, 900 C1's are 28.75" full length.
If the C1 900's tune correctly, stay with them. 
If they act a little weak (they might due to your DL), drop to an 810. 

Then tune the bow to the arrows.

Viper1 out.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Charles A Smith said:


> I'm shooting an Ion-x with Quattro 28# long limbs, 27# OTF, 29.5" draw. 900 Carbon ones at 29.5". The Easton guide says I should be at 700, but bare shaft at 20 yards puts the bare shafts left by about 4 to 6 inches, so too stiff. So one thing tells me one thing and the other tells me something else. Now I want to buy some Victory VAP V1 arrows, their guide recommends 700 or maybe 600 spine.
> 
> What to do! What to do?


I've shot VAP1 indoors and out. I have a 29" DL and to tune 600 VAP I have to hold 38# otf. I mostly shoot 700 @ 35.5#. 700 arrow length groove to tip is 29 1/4", raw shaft is 28 1/16". The 600 were 1/2" longer and still needed 38#. Rule out 600 and 700. I did find 800 to be a little too weak to tune at 35.5#. You can buy VAP one shaft at a time from Lancaster for testing.


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

I'm shooting .900 spine CX medallion xr, 110 g points, 30.25 draw, 27# on the fingers. The arrows are currently about 6" stiff at 18m. 
I dont know how Victory arrows compare with others. The only spine chart that is close to working for me is: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2037374&page=2
This is a sticky thread at the top of the FITA page, info to include when you want help, page 2, Mageira's CX spine chart.


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## remyrw (Jun 7, 2017)

Lancaster has 2016 VAP Targets on clearance right now. That made my decision for me.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

ButchD said:


> I'm shooting .900 spine CX medallion xr, 110 g points, 30.25 draw, 27# on the fingers. The arrows are currently about 6" stiff at 18m.
> I dont know how Victory arrows compare with others. The only spine chart that is close to working for me is: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2037374&page=2
> This is a sticky thread at the top of the FITA page, info to include when you want help, page 2, Mageira's CX spine chart.


Vaps are about 1/3 spine on the stiff side.

Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

teebat said:


> Vaps are about 1/3 spine on the stiff side.
> 
> Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


So, If the OP is anticipating an increase in poundage, perhaps the .900 would work. A bit stiff for now, better with more draw weight.


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

You guys are fantastic!
Thanks for the guidance. I’ve almost decided on 800 spine.

PS The OP is a feeble old man and is not intending to up in poundage.


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## ButchD (Nov 11, 2006)

Charles A Smith said:


> You guys are fantastic!
> Thanks for the guidance. I’ve almost decided on 800 spine.
> 
> PS The OP is a feeble old man and is not intending to up in poundage.


.800 were needing about 32# to tune for me.


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## Lentz (Mar 14, 2010)

So......i have had a similar experience with Carbon One shafts. I went off the easton chart and it showed i needed the 810 spine, so i got them along with 70-90gr points. When the bare shafts were shot they were 7-8" left of the fletched, making them stiff. I maxed out my limb bolts but this did not change the where the bare shaft shot. After spending hours trying to find a solution, i made the trip to LAS pro shop and spent some time with a tech...trying to find a solution. When we went to the next spine down(weaker) the bare shaft when 4-5 FEET left of the fletched group, the tech said it was so weak that it was giving a false reading. Then we we up in spine and the bare shaft was still left and it flew very badly. 

We ended up using my original C1 810 with Top Hat 110gr points, this gave the best arrow flight out of all our tests. The closest we could get the bare shafts was 4-6" (to the left of the fletched group). We tuned my bow with the fletched shafts and i am VERY happy with the tune and arrow flight. It makes me wonder HOW accurate the bare shaft test is. I may not even bother with it, just tune my bow to the fletched arrows.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Lentz said:


> So......i have had a similar experience with Carbon One shafts. I went off the easton chart and it showed i needed the 810 spine, so i got them along with 70-90gr points. When the bare shafts were shot they were 7-8" left of the fletched, making them stiff. I maxed out my limb bolts but this did not change the where the bare shaft shot. After spending hours trying to find a solution, i made the trip to LAS pro shop and spent some time with a tech...trying to find a solution. When we went to the next spine down(weaker) the bare shaft when 4-5 FEET left of the fletched group, the tech said it was so weak that it was giving a false reading. Then we we up in spine and the bare shaft was still left and it flew very badly.
> 
> We ended up using my original C1 810 with Top Hat 110gr points, this gave the best arrow flight out of all our tests. The closest we could get the bare shafts was 4-6" (to the left of the fletched group). We tuned my bow with the fletched shafts and i am VERY happy with the tune and arrow flight. *It makes me wonder HOW accurate the bare shaft test i*s. I may not even bother with it, just tune my bow to the fletched arrows.


Bare shaft testing tells you a lot, but only if your spine is within tuning "range". Once you get out of that range you can get false readings.


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## Lentz (Mar 14, 2010)

So what is considered to be with in "Range"?


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

Wow! 4 feet would catch my attention!

You shooting 27 to 32 pounds OTF? I’m at the low end of that range.

Suddenly I’m mistrusting the bare shaft testing. When I do my job I’m enjoying the group size with the 900 spine arrows.

Maybe I just want an excuse to buy new arrows.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Lentz said:


> So what is considered to be with in "Range"?


I look at it as an arrow that is tune-able. If you already have a bare shaft set up, shoot it through paper from 3-5 yds and if the tear is three inches or more it would questionable that you could tune it without significant changes to the arrow or your holding weight. If you get a two inch tear, for example and tested that with a medium plunger setting, use the plunger spring stiffness to adjust arrow flight. Most folks here say to adjust holding weight, but I believe a plunger has quite a wide working range before you have to change your holding weight. Someone will have to prove to me that a Beiter range of 4.0 to 7.0 is not a good working range for tuning. A bare shaft will move a couple inches left or right at 20 yds with those settings. 

"How do you pick an arrow that is tune-able?" is the obvious next question. Hypothetically, the charts should do that. Personally I always recommend Archer's Advantage or similar software to get in the ball park. However, to use the software programs you need to know what your draw length and draw weight are. For draw length, what you really need to know is how long the raw shaft is, ie carbon to carbon, that you will use, as well as the point weight. That is what the software programs use. From there the software will show you what arrows and what spine should work. With the software, you can also play with arrow length and point weight and all the other inputs to see what affect that has on spine selection. For me, $50 or whatever they cost now, is well worth eliminating 90% of the guess work.


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## Lentz (Mar 14, 2010)

I am shooting 28.9# off the fingers.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Charles A Smith said:


> I'm shooting an Ion-x with Quattro 28# long limbs, 27# OTF, 29.5" draw. 900 Carbon ones at 29.5". The Easton guide says I should be at 700, but bare shaft at 20 yards puts the bare shafts left by about 4 to 6 inches, so too stiff. So one thing tells me one thing and the other tells me something else. Now I want to buy some Victory VAP V1 arrows, their guide recommends 700 or maybe 600 spine.
> 
> What to do! What to do?



You should be in the 1200-1100 spine range. Thats why your 900s are still stiff. 





Lentz said:


> So......i have had a similar experience with Carbon One shafts. I went off the easton chart and it showed i needed the 810 spine, so i got them along with 70-90gr points. When the bare shafts were shot they were 7-8" left of the fletched, making them stiff. I maxed out my limb bolts but this did not change the where the bare shaft shot. After spending hours trying to find a solution, i made the trip to LAS pro shop and spent some time with a tech...trying to find a solution. When we went to the next spine down(weaker) the bare shaft when 4-5 FEET left of the fletched group, the tech said it was so weak that it was giving a false reading. Then we we up in spine and the bare shaft was still left and it flew very badly.
> 
> We ended up using my original C1 810 with Top Hat 110gr points, this gave the best arrow flight out of all our tests. The closest we could get the bare shafts was 4-6" (to the left of the fletched group). We tuned my bow with the fletched shafts and i am VERY happy with the tune and arrow flight. It makes me wonder HOW accurate the bare shaft test is. I may not even bother with it, just tune my bow to the fletched arrows.
> 
> I am shooting 28.9# off the fingers.



The bare shaft test was very accurate. At 28 lbs, you should be in the 1200-1100 spine range, regardless of your draw length. Not anywhere near 800 spine. 

Thats why when you went weaker, it flew even further left. 

And why you cant get the bareshafts in with the fletched now.

And why maxing out the limbs didnt help. 4-6 inches is a complete spine at 20 yards. 

Heaven knows the tune you have to get them work within 8 inches of the fletched. Your bare shafts werent so weak they were giving you a false positive. Your shafts are too stiff period. Way too stiff. You would need to shoot 32-36 lbs to get 800 spine correctly. 


An LAS tech told an RA i know that 11-13% FOC was ideal for shooting at 70 meters. 


Chris


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## Lentz (Mar 14, 2010)

Curious as to why Easton's charts suggested i use 810's...several techs at Lancaster suggested i use them as well. It is frustrating when the EXPERTS suggest this and i pay $150 for arrows that are completely useless. I am not confidant on the information that Lancaster is providing me.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Lentz said:


> Curious as to why Easton's charts suggested i use 810's...several techs at Lancaster suggested i use them as well. It is frustrating when the EXPERTS suggest this and i pay $150 for arrows that are completely useless. I am not confidant on the information that Lancaster is providing me.


While LAS has some awesome and knowledgable staff, not everyone knows everything. Charts are just starting points, and the Easton chart and others have been off for many archers. The Easton charts NEVER worked for me.

You would be surprised the number of people who cant tune a recurve bow or spine correctly arrows with a setup. It is a field all by itself. I know coaches who cant tune a recurve. But to be honest and fair, i know nothing about tuning a compound, and timing and cams etc. So i am a coach who cant tune a compound. 

But i have tuned many recurve setups through my JOAD club, from kids to adults. Your results are accurate for your specs. 


here is a quick rundown that is from John Magera that works for me when spine-ing in JOAD archers. 


_Arrow Selection "rules of thumb" for Oly. recurves
I get about 3-5 PM's a day here, and another 2-3 emails a week about selecting arrows for recurves and barebow rigs.
I thought it may be helpful to post some general "guidelines" I have stored in my head, based on many setups I've tuned for students and fellow archers.
Just like arrow selection charts, remember, these are starting points. Nothing else. YMMV is a given when it comes to tuning arrows from a bow shot with fingers.
So here goes:

2500 spine (1214 Jazz) work from bows that are about 22# @ 22"

2000 spine Medallion XR's or 1413 Jazz/Tribues work from bows that are about 24# at 24"

1500 spine Medallion XR's and A/C/C's work from bows that are about 26# at 26"

*1200 spine CI Ultra Fast (5/15 Super Clubs) and 1150 spine A/C/C's work from bows that are about 28# at 28"*

*1000 spine Victory VAP's, 10/20 Super Clubs and CX Nano SST's work from bows that are about 30# at 30"*
(do you see a pattern there?)

800 spine 15/25 Super Clubs, Victory VAP's and Nano SST's and Nano Pro's work from bows that are about 32# at 30"

600 spine A/C/E's, X10's, NPX and SST's work from bows that are 40# at 30" (Rick McKinney gave me that little nugget in 2006, and I've never forgotten it).

500 spine A/C/E's, X10's, NPX and SST's work from bows that are
about 45# at 31"

450 spine (what I use) A/C/E's, X10's, Nano SST's and Nano Pro Xtremes work from bows that are about 47# at 32"

These are some rules of thumb for recurve archers with normal stabilization. Barebow archers can expect to be on the slightly weak side with these arrows, and will need to lean toward a slightly stiffer solution (shorter shaft length, lighter point weight, stiffer shaft, less draw weight, more nock-end weight, etc.)_


You can see that at 28 lbs, you will be 1200-1100 spine. 

And i cant tell you the $1000 or so i spent on X10s until i finally got the correct spine for my poundage and release. Once i did, it was very easy to then get the correct arrows anytime i went up or down in poundage, or up in draw length. 

Chris


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## Lentz (Mar 14, 2010)

Thanks for this information, i will be sure to print and save it. I called LAS to order the suggested spine arrows, i ended up give the customer service(who happened to be an experienced recurve shooter) the whole story and ended up being the phone for 25 minutes. They are going to send me 2 1000 spine carbon ones under their warranty policy, he asked that i report back with the results....i am VERY impressed with the customer service.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Lentz said:


> Curious as to why Easton's charts suggested i use 810's...several techs at Lancaster suggested i use them as well. It is frustrating when the EXPERTS suggest this and i pay $150 for arrows that are completely useless. I am not confidant on the information that Lancaster is providing me.


Arrow choice: A problem every archer faces at some time or another. You have an unusual opportunity, however. Right now at LAS, you can buy one shaft each of 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 for a total of $30.33 plus shipping. I recommend doing exactly that and keep these as reference shafts. Also get a doz 110/100/90 gr pts (only avail by doz) and break them off to test each spine at the three point wts. Cut the arrows so that the full length is 1 3/4" (same as your DL) or as much as 2 1/4" past the plunger. It seems most WC comps show arrow lengths that extend beyond the target side of their risers. Ymmv. 

I would keep these arrows as bare shafts and shoot them through paper to determine which will give you the best tune. Arguments prevail on this board on the value of paper tests, but at 3 to 5 yds, you will see what the arrow is doing as it leaves the bow.


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## stevebster (Feb 5, 2018)

Chris,

Just wondering, when you state 24# at 24" for example are you talking about 24" arrow length or draw length?


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## stevebster (Feb 5, 2018)

Seattlepop said:


> Arrow choice: A problem every archer faces at some time or another. You have an unusual opportunity, however. Right now at LAS, you can buy one shaft each of 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200 for a total of $30.33 plus shipping. I recommend doing exactly that and keep these as reference shafts. Also get a doz 110/100/90 gr pts (only avail by doz) and break them off to test each spine at the three point wts. Cut the arrows so that the full length is 1 3/4" (same as your DL) or as much as 2 1/4" past the plunger. It seems most WC comps show arrow lengths that extend beyond the target side of their risers. Ymmv.
> 
> I would keep these arrows as bare shafts and shoot them through paper to determine which will give you the best tune. Arguments prevail on this board on the value of paper tests, but at 3 to 5 yds, you will see what the arrow is doing as it leaves the bow.


Which brand/model shafts are you referring to?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

stevebster said:


> Chris,
> 
> Just wondering, when you state 24# at 24" for example are you talking about 24" arrow length or draw length?


draw length

Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

stevebster said:


> Which brand/model shafts are you referring to?


Sorry, I thought VAP shafts were discussed earlier. Those are some of the on-sale shafts. They vary by v1, V3 and v6. The 1000 and 1100 spine are v6 @ $3.50; the 1200 is v3 @ $4.99; or you can get those three as v1 for $6.65 ea. The 800 and 900 shafts are v6 @ $9.17 ea-much higher demand for the lower spine numbers. For testing/reference shafts it shouldn't matter whether v1,v3,v6. They are only for testing spine and tunability. I currently shoot both v1 and v3 mixed and I can't tell the difference. But I'm not shooting them to 70m.


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

OK I ordered three victory vap shafts in 800, 900, 1000 spine. Bracketing what I’m using now. And a dozen points in 90 - 110 gr. And a glue gun from Harbor Freight.

So to clarify my process I see if I can use the paper frame at the range I use and shoot at least three arrows, unfletched, at 3 yards. With the arrows full length or cut to 29.5”? Then if they were full length, and why not it doesn’t cost anything, cut them to 29.5 and repeat. Then cut three points down and try again. The range is from 90 gr. Points on 29.5 shafts to 110 gr. Points on full length shafts. Someplace in there we’re hoping for a sweet spot.

Is the test going to be precise enough to specify a point weight? Seems to me that group size of six arrows at 20 yards would be a more precise test. But I need them to be fletched to do that.

So, assuming the paper test defines a spine for me I order a dozen, or maybe only 9, and then worst case I have to buy another dozen points and repeat with 140 gr. points. $20, I can afford that. Then I know the optimum spine and point weight. Build ‘em up and shoot them.

Is that right?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

personally, i would fletch one and leave two bareshaft in each spine that are cut to your length. I would put in the point with the highest weight first 110 gr. you can always break off some later. 

shoot those at 20 yards. 

See what you get. You may have to tune the bow. 

my money is on the 1000 spine. and probably 100gr because of the arrow length. If your arrow was shorter, i would go 90. 


Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

probably will still be stiff, but the 1000 should fly and group better than the 800 and 900.


Chris


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

OK I ordered three VAPs in 800, 900, and 1000 spine. Bracketing the C1s I’m using now. And a dozen 90 or 110 gr. points.

So, ... guidance.

I figure leave them full length, unfletched, with the points as delivered, and shoot at a, borrowed, paper frame at 3 yards. Then cut them down to 29.5” and repeat. Is this going to be precise enough a test to try again with the points down to 90 gr.?

Hopefully, someplace in there is a sweet spot and I can order nine or a dozen and get them fletched.

Have got this right?

Charles


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

chrstphr said:


> personally, i would fletch one and leave two bareshaft in each spine that are cut to your length. I would put in the point with the highest weight first 110 gr. you can always break off some later.
> 
> shoot those at 20 yards.
> 
> ...


i would skip the paper at 3 yards. See above. 


Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I was suggesting one shaft of each to do some paper testing as an economic first step. Since you bought three of each, I agree with Chris that 20yds is the best for indoor bare shaft testing, but we will disagree on the value of paper testing, explained below. 

Going outdoors 30m is better and then out to the farthest distance that works for you. At 27# OTF, 70m might be doable, but in the Masters Division, you only need to shoot 60m maximum for most competitions anyway IIRC. 

How to proceed can be suggested differently depending on who you talk to. I approach shaft selection/testing/tuning differently I think.

First is to decide how long you want you arrows. In order to this, you need to know what points you will use since they can differ in length. For VAP, the 110/100/90 grain pts are a little over ¾”. Next is your nock system. Pins and pin nocks? G-nocks? Beiter? Beiter nocks are a little longer than G-nocks. The difference between any of them probably does not exceed 1/2”. 

Over-all length: If you watch any World Cup comps on youtube or elsewhere, you will see that with rare exception, the world’s top archers all shoot arrows that extend at least to and almost always beyond the target side of the riser. 

At 29 ½” DL and 29 ½” arrows, I’m guessing that your arrows come to the front edge of your riser or a little more at full draw depending on riser. If your clicker plate is long enough, you can have arrows that extend as much as 2 ½” past your plunger button. 

Putting all that together should give you an idea as to how long to cut your arrows and get the groove to tip length you want. You just don’t want to be the guy who says, “I cut them twice and they’re still too short!” 

A lot of advice on AT addresses adjusting limb weight to tune arrows. That doesn’t work if you know what you DW is going to be already and you seem to know what you want/need. If you have decided on how long you want to cut your shafts, do them all exactly the same. You want to compare apples to apples as it were. With three arrows of each I would do like Chris suggests and fletch one and bare shaft two of each spine. To choose which is which, sometimes the two bare shafts won't group together in so I would suggest shooting all three as bare shafts and choose the two that group best as the bare shafts for your testing. 

Start with the same 110gr pt in all of them. At 27# I would set my plunger between 300 and 400 grams. The Beiter light spring goes up to around a pound or 450 grams, the medium spring goes up to approx 700 grams. The light spring should do fine at 27#. Others can give more precise data here, I’m just comparing to my own specs to guess at an ok spring tension to start. You want some overhead to play with on spring tension. 

Shooting them at 20yds is good, but here is where I find paper testing to be valuable. At 20 yds, arrows (bare and fletched) can group well but have bare shafts slant to one side or the other. What that does not tell you is that at 20 yds, the bare shaft has enough room to rotate from one side to the other. A bare shaft slanting nock right (stiff) may well be a weak arrow because it left the riser slant nock left (weak) but had enough distance to rotate to the right and show a false stiff. This is one reason to 1. always bare shaft at 30m if possible, and regardless, shoot through paper at 3 to 5 yds to see what the bare shaft is doing *as it leaves the bow*. Emphasis added. The example given above is precisely why. Too many folks bare shaft test through paper while standing too far away. This does, as the example above demonstrates, give the bare shaft enough time to rotate and mid-rotation hit the paper leaving a bullet hole, which is of course a false result. That is why you never should stand more than 5 yds away. Both Tuning for Tens and Easton’s Arrow Tuning Guide use paper testing as a valuable tool. These are people who understand how an arrow works. Who am I to argue? I have posted some graphs that show why paper testing works and why a 1" hole may be perfect. I can repost if necessary.

Another misconception comes from calling it “Paper Tuning”. No. It is paper testing, not tuning. You can’t tune your bow shooting through paper, but valuable information is available doing so. It is primarily designed to test whether or not the arrow is tune-able and I think that is what we are attempting here. 

Some added thought about point weight. If you are decided that 27# is your DW and you will most likely be shooting between 20 yds and 60m, 110gr points may be more than you need in order to reach all distances effectively, meaning good arrow flight with a reasonable FOC. If it were me, I would try 110 just to see how they fly, but ultimately I would have a goal of tuning with a 100gr pt for best compromise. Given a chance to shoot outside, I would shoot a fletched arrow with 110gr, 100gr, and 90gr to see which gives me the best arrow flight to 60m. That actually has more to do with front weight and arc, not tuning. Remember that changing point weight has the least affect on tune compared to shaft length and draw weight. When you break the tab off a 110gr point to 100gr, you stiffen the arrow, but the shortened shank will weaken the shaft and tends to offset the stiff affect of less point weight. 

Glue gun? Under no circumstances would I recommend it. Get Easton hot melt. In 17 yrs of aluminum, carbon aluminum, and all-carbon shafts, I have never lost a point using it. Clean the inside of the end of the cut shaft with alcohol with pipe cleaner or other brush (gun cleaning kit has great tools for this). Removing points that have been hot-melt glued can be done easily by holding in enough boiling water to submerge the point and shank for 10 to 20 seconds. Not flame-heating the points to remove them prevents possible damage to point and arrow shaft. Try it, it works. 

That is enough verbiage, hope it helps at least understand some of the issues. I have to go celebrate a 282 at the Sectional on Saturday which is a PB for this old fool and yes, alcohol of another kind may be involved.


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

Well, serious congratulations on that 282! I intend to hoist a glass to all the help you’re giving me. I predict more questions when my LAS order arrives.


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

Well, I’m doing something wrong.

My four arrows (I added one more to the order) came from LAS and I cut them to 29.5” nock valley to point, same as my Carbon Ones. Spines of 800, 900, 1000, and 1100.

The point glue I ordered won’t go through my glue gun. In spite of the fact that it’s the right shape and size. Moving on.

I set up the paper frame, and during warm up I noticed the bare shafts were maybe 6” under the fletched arrows at 10 yards. So I screwed the nocking point down from about 1/2” and tried again. Repeat until they coincide and then try the four bare shafts. The nocking point is at 1/4” now.

Some thrash but the results at 10 yards are:

1000 spine - 3” tear angled at 45 degrees lower right to upper left
900 spine. - 2” tear angled as above
800 spine. - 3/4” tear horizontal right to left.

So there you have it. That says go buy some 800 spine arrows. I know that’s wrong but ... dunno.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

One last try here on this

While i suggested to skip the paper test, why are you at 10 yards with it? Tuning for 10s recommends being close to the paper. Usually you shoot at the paper stabilizer length away. If you move the paper further away, again, it changes the test and will give you incorrect results.

Did you shoot the arrows with fletched and bare shaft as i suggested at 20 yards? 


Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Tuning for Tens: "The nock point must be set so the thrust of the bowstring pushes the arrow neither up nor down
but rather straight forward. *Stand 5 to 6 meters* from the tuning frame." Emphasis added. Personally I like to start at 3 yds from the paper. Please redo the tests and let us know the results. 

A glue gun is simply not suited for this kind of work unless you can get Easton Hot Melt to go through it and that would still be serious over-kill. Go to Home Depot or such and get one of these. It will make working with pts much easier: 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-WK2301-Propane-Torch-Kit-333084/202539561

I change pts several times a year and I think the last tank lasted five years. It stands up so hands free. Put it on very low flame, hold the the point in pliers and warm the shank in the flame, then touch the glue to the flame to soften a dab and swipe it on the point shank. Heat the glue on the shank briefly (I wait until it starts to bubble) and insert the point while twisting the arrow shaft to coat the inside of the shaft until fully seated. I like a little excess to spill over. Wait 10 minutes and the excess will peel right off. When putting points into a shaft that has already been glued, I find heating the new shank enough to warm the residual glue in the shaft makes it easier to insert the newly treated shank. 

When you say "right to left" do you mean nock left, etc., i.e. weak?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I checked and Chris must be referring to the Easton Guide and not T for T. Easton shows standing just four to six feet from the paper. I do think it is primarily referring to compound bows: 

"The Paper Tuning Arrow Test is the most commonly
used bow tuning test for archers using compound bows
with release aids. This test also works well for finger
release:
1. Firmly attach a sheet of paper to a picture frame type
rack approximately 24" X 24" (60 x 60 cm).
2. Position the center of the paper about shoulder height
with a target mat about six feet behind the paper to
stop the arrows.
3. Stand approximately 4 to 6 feet (7.8-1.5 m) from the
paper."

Here is the reason I don't recommend recurve archers stand that close to the paper. I shot a bare shaft that I know is somewhat stiff for this particular set-up. You can see standing close (left tear) that the arrow's nodes appear to be perfectly aligned. Backing up to 15' (right tear), shows a stiff arrow. Faint red mark indicates arrow tip.


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

Well 
I’m learning but all the wrong stuff. The point of the whole exercise is to determine spine so I can buy some arrows. Right now I have four VAPs in 800, 900, 1000, 1100 spine. Plus my Carbon ones in 900 spine, 2 bare shafts, 10 fletched.

I need to put lipstick on my arrows so I can tell more easily which is the point end. [Lipstick on a pig, ...]

I need to learn how to put pictures up here. You can.

When I started shooting through the paper I got tiny holes at 2 yards, biggish (4 inch) tears at 10 yards, and smaller tears at 20 yards. So I used 10 yards since that appeared to be where things were happening.

I’m doing this with bare shafts. I can’t do fletching. I had hoped that I could use my four, five if you count my Carbon Ones, to determine the correct spine, and order a dozen. 

Right now the “winner” is the 800 spine. But I suspect that the reason for that is that it’s the stiffest so it just goes through the paper like a fence post and never bends. My 800 spine holes at 10 yards look like your left one. I think the arrow is starting in at the right side of the tear. Yours looks like the point goes in the center. Lipstick ...

For what it’s worth the VAP arrows feel heavier than my present C1s. If I ever figure out this spine thing I’ll try going down in point weight. You know a lighter point would make the arrow seem stiffer. If I ordered some lighter points and broke them off maybe a weaker arrow would be the right spine. 

I trust group size, but I’m struggling with this paper testing deal. But ordering enough arrows to group, with fletching, is gonna get pricey fast. I hoped ...


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

VAP are a couple tenths of a grain per inch lighter, not sure why the C1 feel lighter in comparison. 30' seems to be working for you through paper, don't discount the results. I haven't tested it, but it is possible at 27# OTF, the arrows are reacting slower. Just a guess. Also, the 800 are actually closer to what Archer's Advantage would pick for you, fwiw. I would take the 800 and shoot through paper at multiple distances, i.e., 10', 15', 20', 25', 30' and see if you get 1" tear at all distances (and less at some), 2" at the most. Do that with each of your spines all with the same point weight, shaft length, etc. A 1" to 2" tear is fine as this graph may show regarding paper testing. The red line indicates shaft oscillation or flexing. You can see how a shaft can leave a small tear and still be flying straight along the target line. Assuming you can get one of the spines to fly ok, and you ink the tip to leave a mark, you should see the mark move across the tear at different distances due to catching the flex at different states of flex as in second graph. I can't tell how far back you would have to go to get a complete sweep of the mark, but you get the idea. 















+


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

Clarification:

At this point, as per your advice for econmy’s sake, I have four VAP arrows, 800, 900, 1000, and 1100. All with 110 grain points, all cut to 29.5”, all bare shafts. And, of course, my original 900 C1s.

The VAPs feel heavier than the C1s. I don’t know the point weight on the C1s. I am notoriously insensitive and I am sure that I can’t feel the difference of a few grains. Maybe a further forward FOC when I’m taking them from my pocket quiver and shooting them?

Going forward: 

My granddaughter is visiting so I’ll be visiting for a few days.

I like the idea of testing at 3’, 10 yards, and 20 yards. Should 3 yards be in there? With lipstick on the point. In terms of methodology I could shoot into the backstop and set the sight and then shoot through the paper. To conserve paper and to avoid putting an arrow into the 2x4 frame. If the different spines shoot fairly close to one another I could do all the spines at one distance then change to another distance.

As a positive result I’m hoping for a spine that makes the smallest set of holes, right? Then buy a dozen and see how the fletched arrows group.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Charles A Smith said:


> Clarification:
> 
> At this point, as per your advice for econmy’s sake, I have four VAP arrows, 800, 900, 1000, and 1100. All with 110 grain points, all cut to 29.5”, all bare shafts. And, of course, my original 900 C1s.
> 
> ...



I tried do a simulation with 27.5# OTF (the lowest I could 28# Samick Uni's) at 29.5" DL with little success. I have 800 VAP cut to 27.5" carbon to carbon and 1000 VAP uncut at 31.5" carbon to carbon. I put 110 gr points in both and stood in front of the paper and got bullet holes. Then at 12' and 15' which I still recommend now that I see that it works with 27# OTF. I got 6"+ stiff tears with both. With 140 grain Top Hat points I could get a 4" weak tear out of the 1000's, but that is the best I could do. I got slightly better results all around when I put the Beiter med spring at its weakest settimg, but that won't solve the over-all problem. 

When you say you cut them to 29.5", is that full length or carbon to carbon?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

When you say you cut them to 29.5", is that groove to tip or carbon to carbon? Are you cutting these yourself or is LAS cutting and mounting pts for you? 4" to 6" stiff at 20yds would most likely be corrected if the raw shaft was 3/4" to 1" longer. 

With the C1 at 28.75" raw shaft and a 29.5" DL, you can add 3/4" or perhaps a full inch to the 900 VAP and still be on the clicker plate with around a 30.5" arrow groove to tip. Cutting the *raw* shafts to 29.75" or even 30" and start from there, cutting back a 1/4" at a time until you get a good tune. Knowing about your plunger would also help. Plungers do have a working area, not just one setting at the middle. The pros seem to like a fairly stiff button, but most of them are also pulling in the 40# to 50# range. 

Like Viper, I would tend to recommend the 900 and cut LONG and work back. 900 seems to be a safer bet given the information we have.


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## Charles A Smith (Dec 9, 2014)

Bunch of clarity on Thursday. I put some lipstick on the points of my four bare shafts and tried them at various distances. My favourite is from 20 yards and show:

800 spine, 1 3/4 tear, nock left
900 spine, 1” tear, nock left
1000 spine, 3/4” tear, nock right
1100 spine, 3/8” tear nock right

I loved the transition from stiff to weak at about 1000 spine. Exactly as you predicted! 

Then I went away for the weekend to do granddaughter stuff. When I got back I tried removing the points with boiling water. It worked! I sure didn’t expect that. I broke off the weights on two points, from 120 to 90 grains, and reinstalled them on the 1000, and 1100 spine arrows.

Both make tears that are less than an inch but now they are more than 2 inches nock upwards. I started cranking the nocking points down and ended up with just about 1” tears withe nocking point at level with the rest. That can’t be right can it?

The good news is that either 1000 or 1100 spine arrows will be tuneable and Lancaster has them (with 2016 graphics) on sale. Whoohoo!

I want them with pin nocks and that’s going to make my nocking point issue worse.

Thanks all. I’m making progess.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

From the OP, it's assumed you are RH: nock left would be weak, rendering your results inconclusive. I tested paper tears w/ 27# OTF and will repeat that at 20yds you are not getting reliable results. That is too much distance since arrows can rotate enough to give false results. How are you measuring your arrows? Is 29.5" carbon to carbon or groove to tip?


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