# Need a Junior Archery sub-forum?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm beginning to think this board could use a sub-forum where those who want to obsess over Jr. archery can do so to their heart's content. I'd be interested to see what % of posts in the past few months were directed toward Jr. archery topics. I think it would be surprising.

What say you?


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## xcreek (Aug 31, 2007)

John, not sure I understand your post but your entitled to your opinion. It is my belief that Jr archery programs and Jr archers are the future of our sport. Just the title of this forum alone (FITA,NAA, Collegiante Archery, and JOAD) seems to be an invitation to the proper place. Do not want this to sound negative just puzzled over your post.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Guess it's just a tongue-in-cheek reference to the overwelming drama that overtakes every thread here that's focused on (or even touches on) junior archery. 

Just mention kids and the claws come out. Yes, I recognize that it's really just a few chief offenders, but it seems to be some of the same tired arguments over and over again about who made what team and why... Sometimes I'd swear I'm sitting at the little league ball fields the week after the all star team was selected, right in front of two moms whose kids either got picked, or didn't (take your pick). 

One of the reasons my kids aren't as involved in youth sports as many others of similar backgrounds is the sheer drama. I can't take it, and neither can my kids. I don't remember things being like this when I was a kid. The "uber"-competitive parents bragging, fighting, cursing and then covering their vehicles with stickers so that everyone in the world would know THEIR kid made the "select" ball club. It's truly made-for-TV nonsense if you ask me, and it SERIOUSLY takes away from the sport and the fun that most kids should be having shooting archery.

It's not enough to just practice when you can, where you can, show up, and have fun with kids your age. No, no. Now you have to be trying to qualify for this or that, hoping to attract the attention of him or her, or waiting for your chance to "wear the shirt." 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but I wish sometimes that it would just go away and we could get back to helping each and every young archer 1) enjoy the sport, and 2) be the best they can be.

I just think we've gone too far with all the teams, shirts, etc. that's all. Some of this needs to get reigned in, and I guess I see the rule of having kids shoot in their own division as a small step in the right direction.

The second thing I'd do is have a rule that prevents archers under the age of 18 from wearing sponsors logos or elite team shirts at official events. I think it's very divisive and corrosive.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> It's not enough to just practice when you can, where you can, show up, and have fun with kids your age. No, no. Now you have to be trying to qualify for this or that, hoping to attract the attention of him or her, or waiting for your chance to "wear the shirt."
> 
> Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but I wish sometimes that it would just go away and we could get back to helping each and every young archer 1) enjoy the sport, and 2) be the best they can be.
> 
> ...


I like your suggestions, and they are interesting coming from someone I assume is very competitive, or you wouldn't have gotten where you have in archery.

It isn't an entirely new thing, either. I remember doing little league in 1s grade. They had **tryouts**. For **first graders**. And then the coaches picked their teams based on the tryouts. And not to make the teams even. Even as a 7-year-old I knew that was just wrong.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

John, here's a kid's view of it. My name is Adam Stringham, I'm a Cadet Compound archer this year, and I shot at AZ cup and the EJN this year, and I'm also signed up for So Cal. You can look up the results if you wish. I wanted to make the World team this summer. I didn't end up making it, but I came close. I woke up every morning at 6 (which kind of sucked in the summer lol) to practice and hit the gym before the Phonenix heat came in. I worked my butt off to reach my goal, even though I didn't get there. But that's the thing, is that it was my goal. I wanted to say "I've been to the World Championships" and be able to wear the shirt that comes with it. It's not because I was pressured to do it by all the other shirts or my parents or my coach. I worked because it was something I wanted. I realize you are probably taking about the kids who do it because somebody else told them it was something they need to do. I just want to remind you that there are some kids out there who want to shoot with the big boys not for the shirts, but because it is their goal and their dream. 

I hope this isn't taken offensively. I tried not to take any swings with this. Btw, good luck to team America in Poland. They better tear it up over there.


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2006)

John, I see your point regarding a sub-forum for the JOAD group. I think it might be a good idea.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

I guess all the drama coming from the collegiate world doesn't warrant a sub forum.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Guess it's just a tongue-in-cheek reference to the overwelming drama that overtakes every thread here that's focused on (or even touches on) junior archery.
> 
> Just mention kids and the claws come out. Yes, I recognize that it's really just a few chief offenders, but it seems to be some of the same tired arguments over and over again about who made what team and why... Sometimes I'd swear I'm sitting at the little league ball fields the week after the all star team was selected, right in front of two moms whose kids either got picked, or didn't (take your pick).
> 
> ...


I love that last comment. You saw my PM i suspect

6 years ago one of my cadet girls was the cadet entry on Jr USAT. she won the NFAA indoor twice set an IFAA record and was runner up at JOAD nationals and US nationals. at one shoot she was next to a girl who had more sponsors on her shirt than say Michelle Ragsdale. My recurve archer was within a couple points of this girl shooting compound. She asked me how this girl got so many sponsors. I just laughed and said welcome to recurve archery However it does intimidate some other kids. And there are kids with USA shirts who never really won a trials-they got them by being picked for JDT or sent on a JDT trip. If a kid earns a spot on the Junior World team that is one thing. But I think some of this creates an US(A) against them and while it has got much better, I have seen some pack attacks on non "members"


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gairsz said:


> I guess all the drama coming from the collegiate world doesn't warrant a sub forum.


I was hoping for a Hoyt v Mathews forum or a Doinker v B-Stinger one as well if you really like Drama since the crossbow haters have pretty well thinned out after all the losses they keep suffering in state hunting laws


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## Nockhuntin88 (Dec 31, 2010)

There is already a young archers forum...


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Jim C said:


> I think some of this creates an US(A) against them and while it has got much better, I have seen some pack attacks on non "members"


You think its bad if you aren't on the JDT, its much worse if you leave it.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> I love that last comment. You saw my PM i suspect
> 
> 6 years ago one of my cadet girls was the cadet entry on Jr USAT. she won the NFAA indoor twice set an IFAA record and was runner up at JOAD nationals and US nationals. at one shoot she was next to a girl who had more sponsors on her shirt than say Michelle Ragsdale. My recurve archer was within a couple points of this girl shooting compound. She asked me how this girl got so many sponsors. I just laughed and said welcome to recurve archery However it does intimidate some other kids. And there are kids with USA shirts who never really won a trials-they got them by being picked for JDT or sent on a JDT trip. If a kid earns a spot on the Junior World team that is one thing. But I think some of this creates an US(A) against them and while it has got much better, I have seen some pack attacks on non "members"


I have to say that as an outsider to highly competitive JOAD I was confused to the JDT shirts worn by competitors and coaches at the nationals (our local JOAD program is non-competitive so I'm not up on all the politics and sponsorships) since they aren't a JOAD team per se. And the winner of the male recurve cadet wore a humble shirt with just his and his dad's archery tab company logo on it, no fancy stuff all over his shirt. I thought that was impressive for some reason.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gairsz said:


> You think its bad if you aren't on the JDT, its much worse if you leave it.


so i have heard-I just remember the Barbie Cyn Brittany Sonke debacle at Chula in 07


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Warbow said:


> I have to say that as an outsider to highly competitive JOAD I was confused to the JDT shirts worn by competitors and coaches at the nationals (our local JOAD program is non-competitive so I'm not up on all the politics and sponsorships) since they aren't a JOAD team per se. And the winner of the male recurve cadet wore a humble shirt with just his and his dad's archery tab company logo on it, no fancy stuff all over his shirt. I thought that was impressive for some reason.


when one of my kids won cadet national target a couple years ago he was wearing his club shirt and his High schools during the competition.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> when one of my kids won cadet national target a couple years ago he was wearing his club shirt and his High schools during the competition.


I only know your club from what I read about it in your posts, but I'm pretty convinced that they don't rely on fancy shirts to prove themselves. I, on the other hand, will have to go the fancy shirt route


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Warbow said:


> The winner of the male recurve cadet wore a humble shirt with just his and his dad's archery tab company logo on it, no fancy stuff all over his shirt. I thought that was impressive for some reason.


Thank you. We are both very proud of our tab. I would like to say that Win&Win and Rick McKinney have supplied my son with two of the finest bows he has every shot, and Doinker has been very generous as well. He could not have won without the high quality equipment his sponsors have generously made available to him.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> I have seen some pack attacks on non "members"


Then there are those pack attacks on JDT kids as well. I will speak up for my once JDT archer who never spoke against non-JDT archers, was and still is friends with many of both JDT and Non-JDT archers on FB and life. My kid quit archery because of politics and because someone else was always deciding what was best for her. Like John constantly saying here on AT that she should not be allowed to shoot where she wants to shoot is a perfect example. She respects John to no end but it hurts when he can't respect her back. She is a mature young woman and can make decisions for herself. She does not disrespect others and does not understand why others disrespect her for her choices and her wanting to represent her country properly (that goes both by being allowed or not allowed) to wear a shirt and by USAA violating the Ted Stevens Act repeatedly. So yes there is drama in Jr Archery, there is drama in college archery and there is drama in Adult archery. It is a never ending cycle.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> so i have heard-I just remember the Barbie Cyn Brittany Sonke debacle at Chula in 07


I remember that too, but it was not because she was not on the JDT...it was because she was down right to mean to the girls on the JDT. Not trying to justify what they did, but it had nothing to do with the fact that she was not on the JDT.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Landed in AZ said:


> Then there are those pack attacks on JDT kids as well. I will speak up for my once JDT archer who never spoke against non-JDT archers, was and still is friends with many of both JDT and Non-JDT archers on FB and life. My kid quit archery because of politics and because someone else was always deciding what was best for her. Like John constantly saying here on AT that she should not be allowed to shoot where she wants to shoot is a perfect example. She respects John to no end but it hurts when he can't respect her back. She is a mature young woman and can make decisions for herself. She does not disrespect others and does not understand why others disrespect her for her choices and her wanting to represent her country properly (that goes both by being allowed or not allowed) to wear a shirt and by USAA violating the Ted Stevens Act repeatedly. So yes there is drama in Jr Archery, there is drama in college archery and there is drama in Adult archery. It is a never ending cycle.


I think you make a powerful, personal argument for your position. I'm wondering, though, if you think there is an age when kids should be free of encumbering sponsorships? Even some of the youngest bowmen are sporting manufacturer's "Staff Shooter" shirts these days.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Warbow said:


> I think you make a powerful, personal argument for your position. I'm wondering, though, if you think there is an age when kids should be free of encumbering sponsorships? Even some of the youngest bowmen are sporting manufacturer's "Staff Shooter" shirts these days.


Actually I don't. If it were not for Shoot Straight in Apopka, FL, Kiley would not have been able to get to where she was. When the staff there heard that my husband and I were donating blood plasma twice a week just earn extra money for her to go to tournaments, they bent over backwards to help her. She was a bowman when they started helping her out. She is a great kid and they enjoyed having her on their staff. She would "pay" them back by working their sale weekends and she would usually sell more bows on those weekends then the regular staff. We were dirt poor and could not afford much but we did whatever it took to support her archery dream (just as we are doing now in her new adventures). So I think it is great that sponsors are out there willing to help. But it has to be an individual's choice, because it can in fact have a negative affect on kids by putting added pressure on them. If that is the case, then no. But it is the family's choice, not USAA and not AT's choice. Leave them to make their own choices. But yes those of us who make those choices need to live with our own decisions. I made several mistakes through the years with archery in the choices we made. But when we recognized those mistakes we moved on and learned from them. And we did not blame others for those choices. I recently commented on a thread about listening to a coach last year about a decision we made and both Kiley and I were on board with the decision and we knew later that it was the wrong one. But we are not blaming anyone for that. So it goes both ways. Don't make a decision and then blame someone else for it.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I think you make a powerful, personal argument for your position. I'm wondering, though, if you think there is an age when kids should be free of encumbering sponsorships? Even some of the youngest bowmen are sporting manufacturer's "Staff Shooter" shirts these days.


What you need to keep in mind is that anyone can buy a Hoyt, PSE or Bowtech shirt. Patches are free from MFG of misc. parts, and embroidery can be had at home, or not too expensive. I have my suspissions whether or not many of those shooters are actually sponsored. I really wish mfg's would have a custom shirt for their truely sponsored archers. It might make things a little clearer as to who is sponsored, and who is just proud as heck to shoot their equipment.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Huntmaster said:


> What you need to keep in mind is that anyone can buy a Hoyt, PSE or Bowtech shirt. Patches are free from MFG of misc. parts, and embroidery can be had at home, or not too expensive. I have my suspissions whether or not many of those shooters are actually sponsored. I really wish mfg's would have a custom shirt for their truely sponsored archers. It might make things a little clearer as to who is sponsored, and who is just proud as heck to shoot their equipment.


Yeah, I wasn't sure if the little kid I saw with the staff shooter shirt really was, but I asked the Hoyt rep and he told me a bit about the sponsorship program, which is all based on supporting sales channels, with discretion and funds being available at several levels, and about how good one of the younger female sponsored shooters was, even against adults. So, there are multiple ways JOAD kids can wind up with Hoyt sponsorship and the kid really was a sponsored shooter, but as you noted, I still can't easily tell at what level the kid is sponsored--member of a shop sponsored JOAD team, a Hoyt sponsored training facility's JOAD team or directly sponsored by a sales rep or the the home office--or however it works.

But I think you could be right about some other shirts.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Landed in AZ said:


> Actually I don't. If it were not for Shoot Straight in Apopka, FL, Kiley would not have been able to get to where she was. When the staff there heard that my husband and I were donating blood plasma twice a week just earn extra money for her to go to tournaments, they bent over backwards to help her. She was a bowman when they started helping her out. She is a great kid and they enjoyed having her on their staff. She would "pay" them back by working their sale weekends and she would usually sell more bows on those weekends then the regular staff. We were dirt poor and could not afford much but we did whatever it took to support her archery dream (just as we are doing now in her new adventures). So I think it is great that sponsors are out there willing to help. But it has to be an individual's choice, because it can in fact have a negative affect on kids by putting added pressure on them. If that is the case, then no. But it is the family's choice, not USAA and not AT's choice. Leave them to make their own choices. But yes those of us who make those choices need to live with our own decisions. I made several mistakes through the years with archery in the choices we made. But when we recognized those mistakes we moved on and learned from them. And we did not blame others for those choices. I recently commented on a thread about listening to a coach last year about a decision we made and both Kiley and I were on board with the decision and we knew later that it was the wrong one. But we are not blaming anyone for that. So it goes both ways. Don't make a decision and then blame someone else for it.


Well, I have to say that is that I admire your dedication to your kids. 

I think you and John both have good points.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> I remember that too, but it was not because she was not on the JDT...it was because she was down right to mean to the girls on the JDT. Not trying to justify what they did, but it had nothing to do with the fact that she was not on the JDT.


it was nasty and it looked really bad to some parents who witnessed the entire thing. I wasn't blaming anyone but it was a bad scene. yelling one girls name and banging on gongs when the other girl is shooting should have resulted in some bans of people (and both sides did this at some point)


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> it was nasty and it looked really bad to some parents who witnessed the entire thing. I wasn't blaming anyone but it was a bad scene. yelling one girls name and banging on gongs when the other girl is shooting should have resulted in some bans of people (and both sides did this at some point)


But only in America do we treat archery as if it were golf.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I think that this kind of interest and the opinions expressed here support having a JOAD sub-forum....but I thought we should have an indoor forum as well!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I think that this kind of interest and the opinions expressed here support having a JOAD sub-forum....but I thought we should have an indoor forum as well!


Well, I don't know if we should have a JOAD sub-forum or not, but it isn't like this combined forum is so full up with threads that it is over run. And I think if a forum doesn't have a certain number of posts it seems dead, which leads to fewer posts. So, if anyone is seriously considering a sub-forum, I wonder if such a forum would get enough posts to warrant it?


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Banning people is never the answer.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Warbow said:


> Well, I don't know if we should have a JOAD sub-forum or not, but it isn't like this combined forum is so full up with threads that it is over run. And I think if a forum doesn't have a certain number of posts it seems dead, which leads to fewer posts. So, if anyone is seriously considering a sub-forum, I wonder if such a forum would get enough posts to warrant it?


Interesting points....perhaps we would get more JOAD shooters and parents posting if there was a specific place for it?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Interesting points....perhaps we would get more JOAD shooters and parents posting if there was a specific place for it?


If we build it they will come? Certainly possible, but would it be for parents and JOAD organizers? Or for the kids? Or both? Is there someplace they hangout now? I expect a lot off the kids are already on-line in social media other than dedicated archery web-forums. I don't know if they are interested in one or in what they'd want it to cater to if they did.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gairsz said:


> Banning people is never the answer.


depends on the transgressions. but its not worth arguing over Gary.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Banning people isn't the answer, but maybe penalizing people for overexcessive celebration, might be. They do it in the NFL, and we all know when we're rooting for *our* team, there's no such thing as over the top celebration, until that little yellow flag is thrown.


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

> The second thing I'd do is have a rule that prevents archers under the age of 18 from wearing sponsors logos or elite team shirts at official events. I think it's very divisive and corrosive.


Where do you draw the line on that? Do you prevent a 17 year old who made a World Team from wearing their USA shirt at Nationals? What about a kid with a Mathews contract that requires them to wear the shirt? Or the one advertising gear he makes in his basement and sells?

Or is this just about JDT? (I do agree though, there should not be sponsorships for kids under age 18)


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

titanium man said:


> Banning people isn't the answer, but maybe penalizing people for overexcessive celebration, might be. They do it in the NFL, and we all know when we're rooting for *our* team, there's no such thing as over the top celebration, until that little yellow flag is thrown.


Who gets to decide what is over celebration? Does it depend on whether or not someone's feelings get hurt? Archery is a sport, there are winners and losers. The winner is supposed to feel like the winner and the loser is supposed to feel like the loser. I do not understand why archers are so sensitive. When a batter gets a clutch hit they pump their arm. A basketball player hits the thee pointer they pump their arm. Tiger woods pumps his arm after a good put. Even in tennis a great shot is celebrated. Nobody is whining in those sports about over celebration. In archery, if a kid pumps his arm for a 10, or a great end, people come unglued. These people need to get over themselves. Archery is unwatchable for the most part. Nobody is cheering for anybody. The archer needs to cheer for themselves. Archers should love every 10 they shoot. Showing passion for a sport is not poor sportsmanship.

Nobody seems to complain when a coach or spectator calls an arrow a 9 or a 10 when it is actually an 8 while the other archer is a full draw. This happens all the time and is done for only one reason, to try to affect the outcome of a match. It is unsportsmanlike, and is very poor form.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Mithril said:


> Where do you draw the line on that? Do you prevent a 17 year old who made a World Team from wearing their USA shirt at Nationals? What about a kid with a Mathews contract that requires them to wear the shirt? Or the one advertising gear he makes in his basement and sells?
> 
> Or is this just about JDT? (I do agree though, there should not be sponsorships for kids under age 18)


Maybe it's just because I AM sponsored, but I disagree with this. As a minor in high school with no real job, working for my shop and getting the associated benefits is the only way I can pay for my equipment. Maybe I don't need to be shooting the best stuff that I do, but necessities like arrows and new string/cables have to be paid for either way, and there is no way I would be able to do that without my sponsorships. I'm sorry, but I don't think it's corrosive. I am helped out by the whole deal and I am able to better compete because of it, and it puts me in a better position to help other archers working toward their goals. And so what if my wearing a shiny red Hoyt shirt makes the other kids want one too. Wouldn't that just motivate some of the kids to work harder? Should we draw the motive for becoming the best into question? I'm sorry, but I think limiting sponsors at any age will hurt those, like myself, who can't afford it, and I believe that's a good number of the shooters out there.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Some commentary....

Regarding sponsorship - this is a really slippery slope. 

I will state that my son is partially sponsored. He has a string contract, a release contract, and has equipment support from a local shop and with B-Stinger via some extremely informal agreements. They are very loose, considering that my child is only 9 years old. Basically, he has to use the items, give occasional reports back, and make the odd appearance on places like ArcheryTalk or other archery forums. 

I will NOT lock him into a bow contract. He's been approached before, and I'm very thankful that I did not go that route, mainly because I personally feel that locking a kid into a bow contract is bad for the kid. I firmly believe that you use the best equipment that they can shoot AND that you can afford. Yes, he is shooting a specific brand now (Hoyt), but that is thanks to lots of experimentation and testing before settling down on that brand. As he grows, what shoots best for him may and will likely change. Locking him into a specific bow brand will be detrimental to him long term.

Archery at a higher level is extremely expensive. Even at a Bowman level, equipment to eek out that last bit of performance gets costly. I can see why parents look to sponsorships because of it. Encumbering both the parent and the archer can be a bad thing. 

Regarding Hoyt/PSE and sponsoring kids -

Hoyt and PSE both have methods for sponsoring kids and getting them on their pro staffs. Hoyt tends to do theirs through shops via a staff shooter program. The shop gets incentive for that, and will place youth shooters into their staff program if the shop feels that they can effectively promote the shop. The shop I work for has two youth staffers under that program. 

Hoyt will put older kids who accomplish a lot (read - win) directly on their national staff. 

PSE has a similar program, both via a shop shooter slot, or directly via a Field Staff slot. One Cadet shooter in Arizona is doing the Field Staff route. The Field Staff route does encumber the shooter - they HAVE to make appearances at various shops in their home area, along with working a PSE booth (or their partner's booth...read, the shop) if they have one set up at an event.

So, if a shooter's parents have a very good relationship with a shop, there is a likely possibility that a very young shooter can be put on a shop staff position for a specific bow company, get the pro staff shirt via that program, customize it and wear it. Age is irrelevant. 

Regarding shirts - 

I find that shirts are a personalized thing. Wear what you want, providing it's okay in the rules. There is one exception to that (for me) - wearing a shirt that you didn't earn. I saw one young male running around at the 2011 EJN wearing (and shooting in) a JDT shirt that belonged to his older sibling. I find that extremely offensive - you didn't earn the shirt, you shouldn't wear it. However, technically it's not against the rules....it's just in poor taste.

Regarding noise -

I will agree with Barb in that we somehow treat Archery like Golf. I find things have a bit of a double standard - you want quiet in the ranking round, but you want ruckus and noise during team rounds? Please - noise is noise. Archers have to adapt and overcome. Even when the club that I teach for has scoring - I have background music and commentary just like a tournament. You train your kids to the environment they will be shooting in. That environment includes noise. Picking on the NFAA - the Vegas Shoot always is noisy. There's people talking, you have the slap of arrows in those oddball bales, and whatnot. I don't see people complaining about that.

-Steve


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## DBrewer (Jul 17, 2010)

I remember the good old days of JOAD when we just showed up and shot every week for our PB’s, working toward the next achievement level or getting ready for the next tournament. We had our club shirts that were littered with achievement patches instead of sponsorship patches. (Personally I liked the old patch system better than the current pin system). There was no JDT, just Jr. USAT which was called the Jr. Elite Team back then. Vic and Rod were on it in the early 90’s, they got jackets as I recall, not sure about shirts. There weren’t a whole lot of sponsorship deals back then (to my knowledge). I do recall one night when Rod was shooting a new set of Super Slams and he managed to Robin Hood three of them that same night. I remember thinking, it’d be nice to have a sponsorship deal if I was blowing through arrows like that.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Gary,

I suspect that this has come about due to the oddball evolution of sports and youth.

I used to be heavily involved in little league baseball. (I still maintain my certification in it). Young kids start off playing games that have no score. Yet, the kids know when they won, or when they had their backside handed to them on a silver platter. The satisfaction of winning or the character building of losing is lost in this "feel good" society that we somehow have built over the years.

The Darwinian process is brutal. Shielding kids from it (in my view) is harming them more than helping them. 

-Steve



gairsz said:


> Who gets to decide what is over celebration? Does it depend on whether or not someone's feelings get hurt? Archery is a sport, there are winners and losers. The winner is supposed to feel like the winner and the loser is supposed to feel like the loser. I do not understand why archers are so sensitive. When a batter gets a clutch hit they pump their arm. A basketball player hits the thee pointer they pump their arm. Tiger woods pumps his arm after a good put. Even in tennis a great shot is celebrated. Nobody is whining in those sports about over celebration. In archery, if a kid pumps his arm for a 10, or a great end, people come unglued. These people need to get over themselves. Archery is unwatchable for the most part. Nobody is cheering for anybody. The archer needs to cheer for themselves. Archers should love every 10 they shoot. Showing passion for a sport is not poor sportsmanship.
> 
> Nobody seems to complain when a coach or spectator calls an arrow a 9 or a 10 when it is actually an 8 while the other archer is a full draw. This happens all the time and is done for only one reason, to try to affect the outcome of a match. It is unsportsmanlike, and is very poor form.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

titanium man said:


> Banning people isn't the answer, but maybe penalizing people for overexcessive celebration, might be. They do it in the NFL, and we all know when we're rooting for *our* team, there's no such thing as over the top celebration, until that little yellow flag is thrown.


We have found that over excessive celebration is defined by whether the people making the claim like the archer. A high performance coach put up slides at a coaches symposium in Colorado Springs of different archers celebrating their wins. It was okay for Brady to yell out and pump his arm in the eyes of those coaches but was completely unacceptable for Matt Zumbo to do the same thing. It clearly showed the bias that folks have. So how do you regulate it when you have clear bias in the span of a 30 minute presentation in front of a wide variety of coaches? This is not GOLF! Let them celebrate. In Mexico my daughter celebrated her bronze medal win in the Pan Am Championships but because she is well liked by coaches it was okay. It was not okay for Matt however. I want to add that there is a youtube video out on the net of the crowd noise during the ORs in Mexico. If someone has it please post it here. I recommend for folks to watch it and understand this is normal archery in other countries. Only in America do we act as if it is GOLF. Kiley's coach, when she was ten, used to throw coke cans at her, clap his hands in her ear when she was at full draw and yell out unexpectedly, he also would bump into as if he was someone coming off the line. It taught her focus. So again, I ask how can it possibly be regulated?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mithril said:


> Where do you draw the line on that? Do you prevent a 17 year old who made a World Team from wearing their USA shirt at Nationals? What about a kid with a Mathews contract that requires them to wear the shirt? Or the one advertising gear he makes in his basement and sells?
> 
> Or is this just about JDT? (I do agree though, there should not be sponsorships for kids under age 18)


If you restrict sponsorships to only those who are of a majority age, you effectively create the argument that John was talking about in another thread - those who play can do so because they can afford to do so, and you don't necessarily find the best out there.

I will also play a Devil's advocate position with this next statement. I am stating it merely to provide a viewpoint that some people may bring up, not because I hold this position. 

The position is this - as a parent, how dare that you restrict me from doing what I feel is best for my child?

Flip side position - if the rules exist, play within them or don't play at all.

-Steve (who has been told many times by others that he should have been a Lawyer instead of going into Engineering).


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Landed in AZ said:


> Kiley's coach, when she was ten, used to throw coke cans at her, clap his hands in her ear when she was at full draw and yell out unexpectedly, he also would bump into as if he was someone coming off the line. It taught her focus.


To add: Good training systems will teach the students lots of possibilities of what may occur while the shooter is on the line. The program I work for will do everything from electronic noisemakers, to paper airplanes, to slapping wood pieces together.

Next focus seminar we are doing, I'm adding a radio controlled car to the mix to simulate the low slung cameras that FITA uses in their events.

-Steve


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> If you restrict sponsorships to only those who are of a majority age, you effectively create the argument that John was talking about in another thread - those who play can do so because they can afford to do so, and you don't necessarily find the best out there.
> 
> I will also play a Devil's advocate position with this next statement. I am stating it merely to provide a viewpoint that some people may bring up, not because I hold this position.
> 
> ...


This is exactly right. Kiley would have been out of the sport early had it not been for the help we got from the local shop helping her. You can only donate so much blood plasma a week (restricted to twice a week). 

Anyone on here read Denise's book? How about what Easton did for her when she was sixteen. Folks here would go ape if that happened now a days. But I say good for her and good for Easton. I thought it was freaking awesome given her accomplishments up to that age. She worked harder for that then anyone and deserved it.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

titanium man said:


> Banning people isn't the answer, but maybe penalizing people for overexcessive celebration, might be. They do it in the NFL, and we all know when we're rooting for *our* team, there's no such thing as over the top celebration, until that little yellow flag is thrown.


I would say I've hit a sore note for some reason, and I agree, celebrating _*after*_ the victory is a right of every champion, so I'm a bit confused at the reaction of parents. If the other shooter is finished, the last arrow is shot, celebrate by all means. What's the crisis?? If the celebration is done prematurely, before other shooters are given the opportunity to finish their round, I would see it as ill-mannered and unsportsmanlike. 

I remember watching Richard McKinney shoot the second 1300 in the United States, and when he came off the line, smiling and greeted by hand shaking well wishers, he was reserved and considerate of the archers still shooting. It's obvious we live in a different day, with a whole different set of standards and ethics. So whatever situation is being inferred, and whether it's 1977 or 2011, we still have an obligation to doing the right thing, and showing people the respect we in turn expect from them.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

titanium man said:


> I would say I've hit a sore note for some reason, and I agree, celebrating _*after*_ the victory is a right of every champion, so I'm a bit confused at the reaction of parents. If the other shooter is finished, the last arrow is shot, celebrate by all means. What's the crisis?? If the celebration is done prematurely, before other shooters are given the opportunity to finish their round, I would see it as ill-mannered and unsportsmanlike.


Very well said!


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

The gold medal match at the 2010 world cup finals. A great moment for Brady, Mel, and the USA. Go to time stamp 8 minute to see the last three arrows. Listen to the anouncer. Talking while brady's competitor is at full draw. It's all part of the game now.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Back to the original question - is or isn't there enough overlap between FITA and JOAD right now? Discussion wise, that is.

-Steve


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

That sound in the background is Limbwalker banging his head against the wall.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, ha, ha. Yea, something like that. 

Look, the biggest problem I see in our sport is those that take themselves too da*# seriously. The patches, bowling shirts and attitudes are really just sad. This ain't life or death folks. Just relax a little and remember it's supposed to be fun. Nobody is getting rich or famous from archery, and I doubt anyone ever will in our lifetimes. It would serve MANY folks involved in JOAD and youth archery to just remember that.

I've seen some junior archers and junior coaches strutting around like they had just discovered a cure for cancer. All I can think is, really?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2011)

Gary, 

The thing that you are failing to understand is that Brady waits until the other archer is finished shooting all of his arrows before he celebrates. Your son, however, is known for his excessive cussing on the line, his total lack of respect for the other archers, and for his "fist pump"( which just happens to be while all of his opponents are at full draw). 

Although Brady does have a huge celebration in this video clip, he immediately congratulates the other archer and shakes his hand. I have NEVER seen your son do this. That is a total lack of sportsmanship and in my humble opinion, is "very poor form".


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

G.O.A.T said:


> Gary,
> 
> The thing that you are failing to understand is that Brady waits until the other archer is finished shooting all of his arrows before he celebrates. Your son, however, is known for his excessive cussing on the line, his total lack of respect for the other archers, and for his "fist pump"( which just happens to be while all of his opponents are at full draw).
> 
> Although Brady does have a huge celebration in this video clip, he immediately congratulates the other archer and shakes his hand. I have NEVER seen your son do this. That is a total lack of sportsmanship and in my humble opinion, is "very poor form".


I do so tire of anonymous posters taking cheap shots at people who have the guts to have a real profile

Let me tell you what I know-as a long time coach of JOADS including some who have competed against Matt Z, a Judge, an archer, a father of a kid who has won a couple nationals, and a professional referee in one of the toughest sports to judge-squash.

IN 2009 three of my kids went to the Jr World Team Trials. MZ won the FITA and the OR in the SI CUP, one of my kids won the trials and was on the team with MZ. One of my three (I wasn't there) made a less than complimentary comment about MZ when he got back to our club. The other two did not concur. So at Dowlington where I was coaching I kept an eye on things Didnt see anything that indicated any problems even when top seed MZ lost to another kid in the semis. Then on to Hamilton Nationals-where I was judging. No problems there. Then on to Des Moines where I also judged. I was judging the team rounds and MZ was stuck with an Asian kid from the west coast who was missing almost every shot because he shot through his clicker. MZ asked me to tell the boy which I did The kid didn't listen to me. MZ told the kid I was a top coach and I was not telling him anything wrong. The kid kept missing as his clicker kept ripping up his vanes. after this kid missed like 8 shots matt and the other boy on the team said DON"T USE YOUR CLICKER. after the match Gary and Matt came up to me and asked if that was out of line I said I didn't think so but Matt still apologized to the kid.

Every time one of my kids does well the first people to send me an email or call me to congratulate my kids its Matt or Gary

If you have something bad to say about this boy, be a man and say it to his face and don't hide behind some sock puppet on the internet. As I said, I coach three boys who have all shot against him at the highest levels of junior archery and this boy has never been anything but completely respectful towards me


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

G.O.A.T said:


> Gary,
> 
> The thing that you are failing to understand is that Brady waits until the other archer is finished shooting all of his arrows before he celebrates. Your son, however, is known for his excessive cussing on the line, his total lack of respect for the other archers, and for his "fist pump"( which just happens to be while all of his opponents are at full draw).
> 
> Although Brady does have a huge celebration in this video clip, he immediately congratulates the other archer and shakes his hand. I have NEVER seen your son do this. That is a total lack of sportsmanship and in my humble opinion, is "very poor form".


I will concur with Jim. Be a man (or woman) and post your profile! As for Matt's celebration, he always shakes hands with opponents and coaches. Who congratulates Matt when he wins? Certainly not his competitors and certainly not the coaches. That was one of the major problems on JDT was that JDT coaches stood behind each and every archer who shot against Matt and NEVER Matt and always failed to recognize his well deserved wins. Who exactly was on the practice range at JOAD Nationals this year after the ranking round besides Matt. You ask how I might know this since I was not there? Well I happen to call Gary while they were still on the range. I asked who else was practicing and the response was they were alone. Matt wins because he works hard for it. So why exactly is it okay for other country archers (in every country but the US) to celebrate while other archers are on the line and it is not okay when Matt Zumbo does it? I want to also point out that Matt clearly has grown up a lot in the last few years and he is now 17 years old so it really does not matter that he shows respect on the line now because others already formed their opinion and won't let it go. And tell me exactly how pumping his fist to celebrate a ten is bad form? You think he should not reinforce his own success? It has nothing to do with the performance of any other archer on the line, be proud of the fact you shot an awesome shot. It affects no one else, remember that. I for one am sick of the attack Matt and hate Matt mentality. Grow up!


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

Unfortunately for those arguing in defense of what appears to be a shooter who behaves in an unpopular manner, GOAT is absolutely right with respect to Brady's behavior. Brady behaves appropriately. Always. That might be why Brady is respected and liked worldwide (I heard the Korean gold medal match shooters were even watching and loudly cheering for him in his Bronze match at worlds) while some other people seem to need to defend their behavior.

Where there's smoke there's fire... Seems some other people need to take a more honest look at why they're unpopular.

Or do you really expect us to believe that every JDT coach and shooter is wrong and the person in question is right?

Now, if the behavior really has improved, great. Unfortunately, once a poor reputation is established, it can take a lot of effort to overcome it. I will point out the fact that long, windy defensive posts don't help that cause...It's usually better to demonstrate through deeds not words.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Mithril said:


> Unfortunately for those arguing in defense of what appears to be a very unpopular shooter, GOAT is absolutely right with respect to Brady's behavior. Brady behaves appropriately. Always. That might be why Brady is respected and liked worldwide (I heard the Korean gold medal match shooters were even watching and loudly cheering for him in his Bronze match at worlds) while some other people seem to need to defend their behavior.
> 
> Where there's smoke there's fire... Seems some other people need to take a more honest look at why they're unpopular.


I am glad that you where there to watch Matt shoot and come to your own conclusion. It is obvious you don't know Matt, he is very popular.


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## underdog145 (Dec 6, 2009)

TIn California, i was in the gold medal match for the Cadet Male Compound and on my last arrow after it was shot, i exuberantly shouted YES and fist pumped as i walked off the line. Not only did my competitor not discourage me for doing that, he was the first person to congratulate me. I think that there is something to be said about Matt. I think that you are a great competitor and I almost look up to you in a way. I enjoy spending time with you and i KNOW that you are a good person and that you dont do anything to discourage or tear down your fellow archers and opponents. I also know that none of all this BS that is floating around is going to discourage you either, but that it will serve as a motivator. Keep up the good work Matt.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

G.O.A.T said:


> Gary,
> 
> The thing that you are failing to understand is that Brady waits until the other archer is finished shooting all of his arrows before he celebrates. Your son, however, is known for his excessive cussing on the line, his total lack of respect for the other archers, and for his "fist pump"( which just happens to be while all of his opponents are at full draw).
> 
> Although Brady does have a huge celebration in this video clip, he immediately congratulates the other archer and shakes his hand. I have NEVER seen your son do this. That is a total lack of sportsmanship and in my humble opinion, is "very poor form".



As I sit here in the fire station I have been thinking about what to say. I am going to thank you for sharing your opinion. You are obviously a member of the Zumbo haters club. It’s ok, because there are many and the club is growing. Not because there is a reason, it is because you and your members spread lies and untruths, and I stand up to you bone heads and shine a light on how pathetic you are. I like that you used the name GOAT. You obviously know that years ago I gave Matt a goat pin that he wears on his chest guard, and you probably know the meaning of it. It is a reminder of my admiration for him. You are somebody close to us and you don’t have the guts to let people know who you are. You are a coward and a cry baby. I have seen many archers step off the line and pump their arm or high five their friends or coach. That is the way it is. Feeling good about the end or shot, or just feeling good it’s finally over is ok. I watched a girl last weekend shoot a 30 and walk off the line and high five her dad. It was awesome. People that really know Matt and I know that we always encourage others and try to help anyone who asks.

As for Matt distracting his opponent in a match at full draw, that has happened, only once. It was two years ago at the Arizona Cup. Matt was 15 years old shooting a single arrow shoot off against a shooter from the Mexican National team in the senior division. Matt shot about a second before his opponent and nailed the X. He stepped off the line and yelled yeah. It was right at the time the other shooter released. He also shot a 10 but not an X. I talked to Matt and told him to wait next time. It was a mistake, it was not done intentionally. It was a great shot and you could understand the excitement of a 15 year old boy. He has expressed his emotions a number other times in shoot offs, but they were after his opponent had already shot. He lets his opponent shoot first now. He went like 7 or 8 single arrow shoot offs in a row hitting the 10 ring. He just lost recently with and 8 in Puerto Rico and was happy for his friend that moved on to the gold medal match.

Matt has listened to the advice from Brady, Jake, and Guy; He respects them and he stayed quit all weekend and waited until the last set of the gold medal match like he was told to do. Matt was up 5-3, and his opponent has just shot a 28. Matt had a 10 and 9 on the target. He let down and let his opponent step off the line. He shot what looked like a ten, which was a 9 just out, to win the match. He stepped off the line and yelled yeah. It was well deserved since the haters cheered for every opponent he faced that day. I understand that one of the other shooters in the bronze medal match was at full draw. If that was the case Matt will apologize, it was not done to intentionally affect the bronze medal match. He was shooting for gold and in his world at that moment he was on the line alone. This is more of problem with the tournament. They should not be running the gold medal and bronze medal matched at the same time. I stood back about 30 meters and watched my son through a scope. I didn’t want any of the JDT coaches accusing me again of trying to affect his opponents. That has never happened. I always stay quiet and most of the time I don’t even watch matt shoot, unlike the people last weekend yelling great shot, good job, and so on for Matt’s opponents while Matt was at full draw. That is just pathetic. You know who you are, you know what you are doing, and I hope you know that you are just making him a better archer. He said to me, “Dad, it happens all the time, I am use to it, it doesn’t bother me, I still win”. If you don’t know, he won the ranking round, the team round, the OR’s and the team trials without losing a single match. So if you going to say that he doesn’t deserve to be on the world team, where were all the other shooters after the ranking round when Matt stayed back in the hot sun to practice for an hour and a half? He was the only one there. Every morning Matt was the first shooter on the practice field getting ready. Hard work equals success, not winning. Winning is something that just happens sometimes. I received a threatening Facebook message after the tournament stating, we will see if your son is even on the Poland team. I just thought, WOW, people have gone off the deep end.

Matt, like many of the other top young shooters has expressed his emotions and frustrations in many different ways. Yes, he has cursed, and he has pouted. So has every other young boy I have ever met. Say that he does it excessively is a lie. I have seen some kids even cry, and I have heard other parents and coaches ridicule them for doing it. The lack of compassion for young people is astonishing sometimes. One of Matt competitors at JOAD nationals this past weekend started to have some problems. He lost a couple of matches. It happens. After one set, he stepped off the line and said something like this, “F*** this, I can’t shoot worth S***. This was loud enough for everyone to hear. It happens, kids get frustrated. That boy was under incredible amount of pressure to win, so I understand why it happened. I can tell you this, I didn’t start passing around a petition to have the boy banned from archery. Those of you who have participated in this disgraceful display of poor sportsmanship should be ashamed of yourselves. The JDT coaches that allowed it to happen should be fired. We know who the two faced haters are that signed that petition and who started it. It will all be public knowledge soon enough. Your energy is directed in the in wrong direction. Just practice more and beat him, so I don’t have to hear your whining anymore. Someone needs to take charge of the JDT and shake the S*** out of it. It has become cliquish and elitist. Even some of the coaches act like they are better than everybody else. Matt left the team already, why so much drama? He doesn't where the shirt, and he doesn't support the team. He will not be wearing USA on his back in the US anymore. We have decided that we are all from the USA not just the kids on the JDT. Archery is an individual sport, so Matt is standing alone now. Well, that’s really not true, there are many supporters out there and we appreciate each and every one of you. He stands with everybody else in the USA that is not on the JDT.

Saying that Matt does not congratulate his competitors is a flat out lie. Countless times competitors have just walked away after he has won. I have told him to go out of his way and be a better person then the haters. Some of my most proud moments watching Matt shoot is when he loses. He has acted like a champion in some of the toughest moments.

We knew there was going to be a problem at JOAD nationals. The talk at the Nor Ester Tournament of kicking Matt’s butt got back to us. That wasn’t going to happen, so of course people lost their minds. Matt was threatened by another competitor after he won, which is a clear violation of the code of conduct. Matt responded with what I would call a few appropriate choice words and that matter was settled. No reason to file a complaint, but we could, they did. The problem is that people really don’t know what he is capable of, and they keep underestimating him. Having high expectations can lead to disappointment. I guess Matt should not have been shooting down with the cadets.

Well, after all that, Matt will be shooting with the seniors from now on, so you sore losers can find another cadet male recurver shooter to hate. Either way we won't have to deal with the cry babies anymore. Now the seniors can kick the crap out of this kid until he either makes the jump to their level or quits. They will either learn to respect him for his hard work and passion for the sport, or they won’t. He has the same dream all of the other great archers in this country have or had, and is learning how hard you have to work to reach it. It’s not given to you, you have to take it. And you don't make friends by winning, you make friends by being a good person. Matt has many friends.

Gary


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Landed in AZ said:


> I for one am sick of the attack Matt and hate Matt mentality. Grow up!


It's ok Barb. It has become ok to hate the zumbos. He is not going to leave the sport, so I guess if they don't like him they don't have to watch him.

Gary


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Jim C said:


> Every time one of my kids does well the first people to send me an email or call me to congratulate my kids its Matt or Gary


Thanks Jim. Congratulations to the two McLaughlin boys in Venezuela, and congratulations to Daniel for making the world team again. He is doing very well. He has broken at least two new junior national records this year. Out shooting Matt's 30 meters with a 353. That is awesome.

Gary


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Mithril said:


> Unfortunately for those arguing in defense of what appears to be a shooter who behaves in an unpopular manner, GOAT is absolutely right with respect to Brady's behavior. Brady behaves appropriately. Always. That might be why Brady is respected and liked worldwide (I heard the Korean gold medal match shooters were even watching and loudly cheering for him in his Bronze match at worlds) while some other people seem to need to defend their behavior.
> 
> Where there's smoke there's fire... Seems some other people need to take a more honest look at why they're unpopular.
> 
> ...


Since you don't know anything about what you are talking about you shouldn't talk. Not every JDT coach has a problem with Matt, only the ones with shooters he is beating. You don't need to point out anything to me. Its bows and arrows for god sake. If my son quit tomorrow I wouldn't miss it for a second.

We have nothing to lose. Why would I lie, we don't have anything to protect. Matt left the JDT, end of story. They look bad for letting their best male shooter get away. People are taking it out on a boy because his dad stands up to the archery machine in America that is grinding up young kids and spitting them out the other side if they don't perform. Some of the coaches on the JDT have hurt more kids, literally, than they helped. Others are outstanding. I can't help that others don't stand up and demand better treatment and coaching of these kids given all the money parents spending trying to develop a world class athlete.

Coach Lee and his wife are still working with Matt. They are very nice people, and frankly, I don’t know why they put up with me. I have no problem with what they are trying to do; it’s the coaches that put their personal athlete before others on the team. Poor coaching, poor bow tuning, and a plain disregard for some kid’s feelings. My kid left and is much happier for it. Others have expressed the want to leave, but are afraid because of what is happening to Matt. 

You can make all the assumptions you want. Neither Matt or I give a rat’s ass what you think.

Gary


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Mithril said:


> Unfortunately for those arguing in defense of what appears to be a shooter who behaves in an unpopular manner, GOAT is absolutely right with respect to Brady's behavior. Brady behaves appropriately. Always. That might be why Brady is respected and liked worldwide (I heard the Korean gold medal match shooters were even watching and loudly cheering for him in his Bronze match at worlds) while some other people seem to need to defend their behavior.
> 
> Where there's smoke there's fire... Seems some other people need to take a more honest look at why they're unpopular.
> 
> ...


who are you again?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gairsz said:


> Thanks Jim. Congratulations to the two McLaughlin boys in Venezuela, and congratulations to Daniel for making the world team again. He is doing very well. He has broken at least two new junior national records this year. Out shooting Matt's 30 meters with a 353. That is awesome.
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary. Both of the twins have been working hard. If they are in town they are at my house shooting shooting shooting. A lot of credit goes to Pat and Lisa who support their dream. They are as good a set of parents I have ever had in our program-Pat built our range 9 new target stands and wouldn't take a dime for them.


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I love that last comment. You saw my PM i suspect
> 
> 6 years ago one of my cadet girls was the cadet entry on Jr USAT. she won the NFAA indoor twice set an IFAA record and was runner up at JOAD nationals and US nationals. at one shoot she was next to a girl who had more sponsors on her shirt than say Michelle Ragsdale. My recurve archer was within a couple points of this girl shooting compound. She asked me how this girl got so many sponsors. I just laughed and said welcome to recurve archery However it does intimidate some other kids. And there are kids with USA shirts who never really won a trials-they got them by being picked for JDT or sent on a JDT trip. If a kid earns a spot on the Junior World team that is one thing. But I think some of this creates an US(A) against them and while it has got much better, I have seen some pack attacks on non "members"


When you go to World Ranking Events in foreign countries you MUST have a shirt with your name and country code on the back. We have taken the JDT to WRE's including the Pan/Am Championships and when those young archers compete they they almost sweep the medals in the Adult and/or Junior categories. Most of those archers are cadets. Anyone can put USA on their shirt and if you are from the USA I think you should be proud enough to put your country code on your shirt, even if you are wearing it in the USA.

Coach Angelo and I are taking 5 archers (recurve and compound) to Costa Rica in August. Self-funded for everyone, including the staff, and it's an open World Ranking Event. As many archers from the USA can go as want to. It's a cheap trip, about $1400.00 all-inclusive. But, you have to have uniforms, team shirts, names and country codes, matching shorts. My boggle is why more people don't go to the WRE's in Central and South America and get some experience and a nice vacation. You don't have to wait to make a team. Pick a tournament and tell Robby that you want to go.

At the 2009 Youth Worlds we realized that most of the archers who made the team had never been to an international event. Even though we were in Ogden, UT the enormity of the event and the schedule and logistics was overwhelming some of the archers who didn't know what to expect. When we took the JDT to El Salvador in 2009 We wore the same uniforms that we wore in the Youth Worlds. The team members who weren't on the Youth World Team (Coaches Terry and Linda, archers Joe Fanchin, Mackenzie Brown and Josh Smith) bought their own uniforms. When we took the JDT to the Guadalajara in 2010 we wore our JDT uniforms. We already had USA on the shirts so we had to put names on the backs of them. This year in Venezuela the Red Team again wore their JDT uniforms.

It's not a crime to put USA on a shirt. Nor is it a crime to put USA and your name on a shirt. The "Team Uniforms" now have the team name or affinity group stenciled on the sleeve. The sponsors that are stenciled on the sleeves of the JDT and RA shirts gave money or product to USAA to support those programs. It is only fitting and respectful that their logo should be on the shirts. The crime is that more archers from the USA don't go to World Archery Americas open World Ranking Events and get some experience and vacation time. When you go to these events you are treated very nicely by the organizing committees. Transportation is provided to the delegation. The organizing committee does everything possible to make you feel welcome and the venue and level of tournament organization is first rate. Pluse the entry fee is usually around $100.00.

My humble suggestion is to quit griping about those who "do" and start "doing" yourself. There are as many slots open for the Costa Rica Cup (August 11-19) as needed if people want to go. There is still a day left to get your registration in. I'm making all of the administrative coordinations so if you want to go call Robby, and you'll end up with a cool team shirt (purchased on your own) after it's all over...you may be able to trade one to someone from another country if you're lucky...and you'll have a great time.

I know I got a little off-topic. But banning sponsor shirts for under-18's is not realistic. Outlawing shirts with Name and USA on the back is not realistic and not very patriotic. Let's get with the program and start having fun instead of all this jealous anti-shirt movement. Plus I don't think we need an extra sub-forum.

BTW, Matt Zumbo is a great competitor and graduated from the JDT this past summer. I mention him because he, along with Daniel McLaughlin, Nathan Yamaguchi, Forrest Blakely, Aaron Henlsin, Peter Kelchner, Josh Smith, Michelle Gilbert, Kiley Larrick, Miranda Leek, Mackenzie Brown, Holly Stover, Heather Trafford, Lauren Clamon and other great young archers, who are/were JDT Members, are pioneers who are making strides and competitive advances that our sport hasn't seen in decades. They are seasoned initernational competitors with many international events under their belts. They have the experience that is making them the champions of today and tomorrow. You don't have to be on the JDT to be great, but you do have to get the experience necessary to be comfortable stepping off the plane in a country/town whose name you can't pronounce and be ready to shoot like you were in your own back yard.

Go buy a shirt and put your name and USA on the back...you'll feel beter about yourself and your country.


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

gairsz said:


> Neither Matt or I give a rat’s ass what you think.
> 
> Gary


Well, at least we know where the real problem lies here.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

ldfalks said:


> When you go to World Ranking Events in foreign countries you MUST have a shirt with your name and country code on the back. We have taken the JDT to WRE's including the Pan/Am Championships and when those young archers compete they they almost sweep the medals in the Adult and/or Junior categories. Most of those archers are cadets. Anyone can put USA on their shirt and if you are from the USA I think you should be proud enough to put your country code on your shirt, even if you are wearing it in the USA.
> 
> Coach Angelo and I are taking 5 archers (recurve and compound) to Costa Rica in August. Self-funded for everyone, including the staff, and it's an open World Ranking Event. As many archers from the USA can go as want to. It's a cheap trip, about $1400.00 all-inclusive. But, you have to have uniforms, team shirts, names and country codes, matching shorts. My boggle is why more people don't go to the WRE's in Central and South America and get some experience and a nice vacation. You don't have to wait to make a team. Pick a tournament and tell Robby that you want to go.
> 
> ...


AMEN Dee!!


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

ldfalks said:


> When you go to World Ranking Events in foreign countries you MUST have a shirt with your name and country code on the back. We have taken the JDT to WRE's including the Pan/Am Championships and when those young archers compete they they almost sweep the medals in the Adult and/or Junior categories. Most of those archers are cadets. Anyone can put USA on their shirt and if you are from the USA I think you should be proud enough to put your country code on your shirt, even if you are wearing it in the USA.
> 
> Coach Angelo and I are taking 5 archers (recurve and compound) to Costa Rica in August. Self-funded for everyone, including the staff, and it's an open World Ranking Event. As many archers from the USA can go as want to. It's a cheap trip, about $1400.00 all-inclusive. But, you have to have uniforms, team shirts, names and country codes, matching shorts. My boggle is why more people don't go to the WRE's in Central and South America and get some experience and a nice vacation. You don't have to wait to make a team. Pick a tournament and tell Robby that you want to go.
> 
> ...


AGREED, AGREED, AGREED!!!!!!

Dee....I wish that USA Archery would sell a "replica" shirt with USA and our name on it and sell it with the proceeds going to a fund to support people attending the WRE events! 

Also, is there a calendar online on WRE events that you could put as a link up here? I would guess it would be on the WorldArchery.org page.....


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ldfalks said:


> When you go to World Ranking Events in foreign countries you MUST have a shirt with your name and country code on the back. We have taken the JDT to WRE's including the Pan/Am Championships and when those young archers compete they they almost sweep the medals in the Adult and/or Junior categories. Most of those archers are cadets. Anyone can put USA on their shirt and if you are from the USA I think you should be proud enough to put your country code on your shirt, even if you are wearing it in the USA.
> 
> Coach Angelo and I are taking 5 archers (recurve and compound) to Costa Rica in August. Self-funded for everyone, including the staff, and it's an open World Ranking Event. As many archers from the USA can go as want to. It's a cheap trip, about $1400.00 all-inclusive. But, you have to have uniforms, team shirts, names and country codes, matching shorts. My boggle is why more people don't go to the WRE's in Central and South America and get some experience and a nice vacation. You don't have to wait to make a team. Pick a tournament and tell Robby that you want to go.
> 
> ...


Dee -

That little "project" that you and I have been talking about may come to fruition by this very method. Thank you for the idea...and the work!

If there is any way to publish the schedule, that would help tons.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mithril said:


> Unfortunately for those arguing in defense of what appears to be a shooter who behaves in an unpopular manner, GOAT is absolutely right with respect to Brady's behavior. Brady behaves appropriately. Always. That might be why Brady is respected and liked worldwide (I heard the Korean gold medal match shooters were even watching and loudly cheering for him in his Bronze match at worlds) while some other people seem to need to defend their behavior.
> 
> Where there's smoke there's fire... Seems some other people need to take a more honest look at why they're unpopular.
> 
> ...





Jim C said:


> who are you again?


+1 on what Jim said. If you're going to bolster your viewpoint for or against anything, putting up who you are definitely helps. Call it street credibility, if you will.

Keyboard jockeys hiding behind a monitor without having the brass ones to show who you are merely hurts your standpoint.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Scott.Barrett said:


> AGREED, AGREED, AGREED!!!!!!
> 
> Dee....I wish that USA Archery would sell a "replica" shirt with USA and our name on it and sell it with the proceeds going to a fund to support people attending the WRE events!
> 
> Also, is there a calendar online on WRE events that you could put as a link up here? I would guess it would be on the WorldArchery.org page.....


Scott,

I think you're right, we need to hit the worldarchery page.

The catch is that we need some sort of coordination if we're going to create teams and invade (loose term used).

-Steve


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> Scott,
> 
> I think you're right, we need to hit the worldarchery page.
> 
> ...


I did a little search over there and was able to find the Costa Rica event just by looking for WRE events. Lot's event listed, but I think we would need a little more info from someone like Dee to get it put together....

SB


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It seems obvious to me that there is extraordinary division in our sport that is created by 1) impression of "exclusivity" that surrounds the OTC programs, and 2) other's reactions to this impresson. I saw this even back in '04 when some folks were talking about beating the "RA's" in order to prove something. I didn't understand this then, and still don't understand it. 

In '04, some of the RA's (Schull, Krueger and Burkett) were the first archers I got to know and they were very friendly and supportive to me. Their behavior was EXCEPTIONAL in my view and I can't ever remember them being anything but gentlemen when I shot against them - when I made the team, they all congratulated me even when they knew what it meant for them. I was very impressed with the sportsmanship they showed.

However, these young men were adults and had obviously learned how to conduct themselves. 

Throwing teenagers into similar situations is a whole other ballgame. 

Many of our young archers simply lack the emotional maturity to deal with either being or not being on a "select" team. I have seen this from both sides - as one of the original JDT coaches, and later as the coach of archers competing against JDT archers. 

I can think of few times when I was involved with the program that the JDT archers didn't conduct themselves appropriately. Maybe that's changed, and admittedly I've been much less involved in archery the past few years, so who knows. But the bigger issue I've seen is the "us vs. them" attitude that's fostered by the NON-JDT and Non-RA archers, their families and friends. 

When I was competing, I had several friends and family members who were aware of the RA program and wanted to see me beat the "full time archers." I never bought into that. That's not motivation, that's just negative thoughts that have no place in a world class competitor's head in my opinion. And it's not sportsmanlike or Christian either. 

There are things the OTC programs could do to lessen the grief their archers get, and things they could do to discourage the "us vs. them" game playing that goes on. But let's be honest, it's also the responsibility of all the USArchery members to be respectful of the archers selected in these programs just as they are of all their competitors. It goes both ways. Taking cheap shots at an archer just because they have been selected to a program, or are sponsored, is a sign of weakness in my opinion, and it's the mark of a person looking for excuses. 

At the same time, flaunting your status as a select archer or sponsored archer is also a sign of weakness and if it were up to me, I'd limit the display of sponsor logos and team clothing to certain events and also to archers under the age of 18. It can only help bring people together, because the proliferation of select team clothing and sponsorship logos have certainly taken their toll on the larger group of youth archers in the past few years.

And Dee, if we're not going to limit when team shirts are worn, then I agree with your suggestion that if the USA shirts bother some folks, then they should get their own team USA shirt and wear it. And I couldn't agree more with the WRE participation. My brother James did exactly what you suggest a few years ago and it was a huge learning experience and confidence booster for him. He now has a couple of WRE medals that he can share with his kids and grandkids for years to come. I also don't know why more archers don't take advantage of this opportunity. I plan to myself someday, just for a fun vacation with my wife.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mithril said:


> Well, at least we know where the real problem lies here.


I'm very confused.

I don't know Matt or Gary personally. In fact, I've seen Matt only compete a handful of times. The closest that I am to them is that I'm a Facebook friend with both of them.

Bringing a debate point into play (and I love debating....), Matt has:

-Skill and Talent
-Support system
-mental attitude to succeed

Why is that an issue? I know people do not want to see others succeed. But if someone adapts and overcomes (apologies for the military term here), what's wrong with that?

Archery is a very brutal darwinian sport. You have a clear group who comes out on top, period. 

Speaking as a parent and speaking VERY bluntly - even as recent as the 2011 EJN, my son was subjected to verbal abuse from other competitors, was trashed by other parents (and a coach) for helping out another competitor stay in the game, and even had his equipment tampered with. He's 9. Did it get to him? No. In one case of verbal abuse during the Olympic rounds, my son merely proceeded to outshoot his competitor and leave him in the dust by over 20 points.

I can see where Gary has his view point. I personally could also give a rats behind to those who think ill of my child. It's a parental reaction.

As a parent, we are here to defend our children. Period. If you DON'T defend your children, you're not doing your job as a parent.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Taking cheap shots at an archer just because they have been selected to a program, or are sponsored, is a sign of weakness in my opinion, and it's the mark of a person looking for excuses.


John,

You hit a nail right on the head. Excuses. In today's day and age, there is distinct lack of personal responsibility overall in society. But that's because people don't want to fail in order to succeed. They want instant success.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> As a parent, we are here to defend our children. Period. If you DON'T defend your children, you're not doing your job as a parent.
> 
> -Steve


I guess I would put this another way... As a parent, it's one of my jobs to help my child learn and develop. Protect them when they need it and cannot defend themselves, sure, but sometimes you have to let them learn to take a few lumps on their own too. Defending a kid is fine so long as it doesn't become an irrational bias that won't allow you to be objective. Being too subjective in the defense of a kid send them a message that they can behave in a biased manner too. 

Gets back to the personal responsibility thing Steve mentioned. Kids have to learn to take responsibility for their own actions, and having a parent swoop in and "rescue" them from the firestorm they themselves created isn't really a good way to learn valuable lessons.

If a young archer behaves badly or does something wrong, the parent has the responsibility in my view, to be the first one to say "well, you screwed up and now you have to live with the consequences." Otherwise, the child learns that they don't have to take full responsibility for their actions.

And this only works if parents are objective, and are paying attention instead of "checking out" under the shade tent reading a book or talking gossip with the other parents...

Too often I've seen a parent get bent out of shape late in the game becuase they weren't paying attention all along, and don't know the whole story. Then it all hits them by surprise once little Johnny or Mary comes crying to them about how they've been "wronged."

Get both sides of the story. Show your kids responsibility by giving each party to the indescretion an equal opportunity to explain things the way they saw it. TALK to the other parents and don't get into a defensive position at the outset. 

These steps would go a long way in heading off some of the issues we're having today.

John


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> +1 on what Jim said. If you're going to bolster your viewpoint for or against anything, putting up who you are definitely helps. Call it street credibility, if you will.
> 
> Keyboard jockeys hiding behind a monitor without having the brass ones to show who you are merely hurts your standpoint.
> 
> -Steve


Just went back on all of Mithril's posts and there has been some bad blood between him and Gary, none of which seems to have been started by Gary.

In terms of "street cred", Mithril seems to only make posts when he can point out that someone is wrong on a subject or to push his own opinion. I've seen all I need to see....

SB


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

I keep getting PM's that say "ignore the playground bullies"... 

It's really amazing how 6th grade behavior manifests itself in supposed adults.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Mithril said:


> I keep getting PM's that say "ignore the playground bullies"...
> 
> It's really amazing how 6th grade behavior manifests itself in supposed adults.


The only thing I know about you is what you have written here on AT. Your posts pretty much say it like it is....feel free to PM me if there is something that I am not seeing....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ldfalks said:


> When you go to World Ranking Events in foreign countries you MUST have a shirt with your name and country code on the back. We have taken the JDT to WRE's including the Pan/Am Championships and when those young archers compete they they almost sweep the medals in the Adult and/or Junior categories. Most of those archers are cadets. Anyone can put USA on their shirt and if you are from the USA I think you should be proud enough to put your country code on your shirt, even if you are wearing it in the USA.
> 
> Coach Angelo and I are taking 5 archers (recurve and compound) to Costa Rica in August. Self-funded for everyone, including the staff, and it's an open World Ranking Event. As many archers from the USA can go as want to. It's a cheap trip, about $1400.00 all-inclusive. But, you have to have uniforms, team shirts, names and country codes, matching shorts. My boggle is why more people don't go to the WRE's in Central and South America and get some experience and a nice vacation. You don't have to wait to make a team. Pick a tournament and tell Robby that you want to go.
> 
> ...


Don't need to buy one Dee, I have a 1980 USA team vest in skeet and got another one in 93. I actually earned those vests. I also have a shirt and tie from the USSRA (Squash) Lapham-Grant Cup International Team as well. I was talking about kids wearing USA shirts when they are not representing the USA-like at JOAD nationals.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Mithril said:


> Well, at least we know where the real problem lies here.


Gary is correct--If you don't believe enough in what you post here to put your name or identity behind your thoughts, no one else either should give a rat's ass about your opinion. 

Seriously, if you aren't brave enough to stand for what you say why should anyone else give a damn about your opinion? I might not agree with Dee or Scott or John all the time but at least I respect them for not hiding behind a sock puppet


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## Beakerx10 (Apr 9, 2011)

On a side note, I think this shows that archerytalk could actually use a Jr Archery sub forum. It could be used to discuss JOAD, Jr archery, JDT, and everything in between. I'm not trying to say this in a bad way but I'm pretty sure that everyone who comes in here looking for advice on FITA and Olympic style archery could really care less about threads dominated by Jr Archery politics. 

I'm sure there's people who could talk about the politics all day...that's fine, but is the sub forum that's meant to help archers become better FITA and target shooters the place for that? I really don't think so...
That's my thoughts anyway


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> Don't need to buy one Dee, I have a 1980 USA team vest in skeet and got another one in 93. I actually earned those vests. I also have a shirt and tie from the USSRA (Squash) Lapham-Grant Cup International Team as well. I was talking about kids wearing USA shirts when they are not representing the USA-like at JOAD nationals.


I watched the JOAD nationals because I've never seen one, this last one was relatively close by and I wanted to see how other JOAD groups shoot. As one of the few spectators at the JOAD nationals (someone who wasn't a parent, coach or sibling of a participant), I have to say that I found some of the team shirts to be confusing--I'm an outsider to competitive JOAD but more educated on it than the general public. So I expected that everyone's shirt was representative of the team they came with. I don't remember how many shirts said USA on them, but I was thrown by the JDT shirts. I figured the JDT must have put together its own JOAD team since there was a cluster of JDT coaches and a bunch of JDT archers wearing JDT shirts at the nationals (it's not something I know, so I just thought of what might be possible). So I was surprised to find out that the JDT shirts had nothing to do with the JOAD teams the kids are on. So that just seemed sort of wrong for the context of the shoot. But, since there are almost no outside spectators at such events like myself who don't know the context of the JDT, I suppose that isn't such a big deal.


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

> but is the sub forum that's meant to help archers become better FITA and target shooters the place for that? I really don't think so...


You might be right, but prepare for the hoary old "don't click on it if you don't like it" whine...



> Gary is correct--If you don't believe enough in what you post here to put your name or identity behind your thoughts, no one else either should give a rat's ass about your opinion.


Then why do you keep commenting on it? Your repeated (obsessive?) actions - posting the same thing, over and over- are hardly consistent with your statements on this. If you don't give a rodent's posterior, _don't comment_. Real simple!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow, I agree that the shirt can be confusing and at times misleading. 

I've learned that there are as many different motivations for wearing "team" or sponsor clothing or accessories as there are archers to wear them. Some do it out of pride of accomplishment for having made the team or earned the sponsorship, some do it as an attempt to intimidate their competition, some do it because a coach or parent told them to. I think it just depends on the archer.

My personal opinion is that the scores should speak for the archer and if they need a shirt to wear to make them feel better about themselves or to try and intimidate the other archers, then their focus is just in the wrong place. I can more easily understand those who wear sponsor's clothing or patches as a way to say "thanks" to that sponsor. I've done this myself. Having said that, I still think it's inappropriate for kids (under 18) to be wearing sponsor's logos. They just aren't mature enough yet, and I think it sends the wrong message about why we shoot. Heck, some adults aren't mature enough to wear sponsor's clothing responsibly. ha, ha. 

Sponsorship clothing and team jerseys are kinda like alcohol in a way. They bring out the person's true personality.

John


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Mithril said:


> Well, at least we know where the real problem lies here.


We sure do...with cowards like you who aren't man enough to post your profile and take pot shots at those of us who do. Your opinion makes no difference to anyone.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Mithril said:


> You might be right, but prepare for the hoary old "don't click on it if you don't like it" whine...
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do you keep commenting on it? Your repeated (obsessive?) actions - posting the same thing, over and over- are hardly consistent with your statements on this. If you don't give a rodent's posterior, _don't comment_. Real simple!


I get tired of cowardly attacks on people I know by those who hide behind a facade. As a trial attorney I deal with expert opinions constantly and the opinion's value is often determined by the credentials of the person making it. For example if the issue is how to handle the pressure of being in the lead or close to the lead in an Olympic or world games in archery Darrell Pace, Jay Barrs or Rick McKinney's opinion is going to mean alot more than mine or other middle of the road archers. If the issue is on how to coach world champions, then someone Like Vittorio Frangilli's advice matters more than a guy whose students have never won even a regional event. And if the issue is an engineering matter concerning machined risers, I am going listen to say George T etc.

If you hide behind a facade it says alot about your opinion


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

I thought this was an internet forum, not a court of law.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Mithril said:


> I thought this was an internet forum, not a court of law.


no matter the forum, if you are going to make charges or accusations against other people they have a right to confront their accusers and if you hide behind a facade because you don't have the intestinal fortitude to own up to who you are you have deprived the target of your attacks from having his constitutionally sacred right of confrontation

Here is the rule I would suggest

sockpuppets, blank or fraudulent profiles etc should not be able to attack other posters

period


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## Beakerx10 (Apr 9, 2011)

Jim C said:


> Here is the rule I would suggest
> 
> sockpuppets, blank or fraudulent profiles etc should not be able to attack other posters
> 
> period


Jim, 
That sounds like a fair rule, but wouldn't a better one be any poster cannot attack any other poster regardless if they have their profile filled out or not. And instead work on making the archery community better by staying on subject?

I'm not trying to single you out in anyway here, just using your quote. I can understand people want to prove points and the insults seem to come from all sides but look at what's happened: another thread turned into arguing with no solutions. 

People are going to have different views on everything, let's try to treat people and their views with the same respect you want to receive back without adding a personal element into everything.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> no matter the forum, if you are going to make charges or accusations against other people they have a right to confront their accusers and if you hide behind a facade because you don't have the intestinal fortitude to own up to who you are you have deprived the target of your attacks from having his constitutionally sacred right of confrontation
> 
> Here is the rule I would suggest
> 
> ...


Hmm...well, preferably no poster should be "attacking" any other poster. And nobody should be able to reserve the right to attack other posters on the basis of whether their profile is filled out or not. And I bring this up on principle, not out of agreement with anything Mithrill has alleged.

I think we should separate out a few issues. There is no constitutional right to "confront" someone you disagree with in a web forum--which is something you as a trial lawyer know full well, so you are being a bit over the top. That is an argumentative flourish, not a real argument. Nor does, say, Daubert apply, here in a web forum, this not being a court of law.

But, I agree that real-life reputation can and does play an important role here in the forum. Knowledgeable posters who use their real names can have more credibility in some areas because of their known expertise. Vittorio and Rick and Limbwalker all fit those categories--all people I know of from outside this forum. But other people who use their real names I know primarily through their posts, people such as you, Jim. I've come to respect you not because of your name but because of the thinking, consistency and quality of your posts. I think I'd do the same even if you didn't post under your own name.

Anonymity isn't inherently good or bad in a poster. If the poster makes good arguments that stand on their own, then the anonymity is not relevant to the argument. And an anonymous poster has a body of work to judge them on that may give you a better idea of who they are as a person than merely knowing there name. If I gave you my name, would you really know me better? A blank profile can be an honest and truthful one.

Likewise, if an anonymous poster makes un-supported arguments then those arguments would likely be unsupported even if that poster's name was known. I don't think Mithril's posts would be any more credible to you if you did know that person's name. If Mithrill is a negative person then maybe that's all one needs to know about him or her? And if Mithrill did have a profile, how would you know if it was true or not? Folks shouldn't assume that a filled out profile equals honesty. Many a sockpuppet has had a lovely, filled out profile.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

it is amazing how many twists and turns this thread has taken in 3 pages. From JOAD subforum, to Junior Dream Team Bias or not, from sportsmanship to noise while shooting, 
from Sponsor shirts or not (earned or not), to Matt haters or not ( whom i do not know and can not comment on any JOAD kids actions), to posters who are making accusations at people hiding behind the internet facade of invisibility. 

all i can say is just wow.... 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, the direction of this discussion has confirmed in my mind the nature I would expect of a proposed "jr. archery" forum. At least if we had one, it may re-direct a lot of the toxic debate to a place besides the general fita discussion. Of course, the life expectancy of at junior target archery sub-forum would probably be measured in weeks, if not days or hours...

Seems to me that this phenomenon of ultra-competitive junior sports is fairly recent, although I may have only become aware of it since being a coach and parent myself. I'd expect that it all ties back to money and ego (usually the source of angst in society) that are more available in youth sports than ever before... Who would have thought that 20 years ago, a twelve year old would walk up to the shooting line, competing for "national championship" with the shirt and logos of multiple programs and sponsors competing for the right to use that child's accomplishments to promote their business...

That's the point we've sunken to in this society. Where a corporation will even claim a 12 year old's "National Championship" title as yet even more proof that their product or program is superior. 

It all makes me a little sick. But then, I've been accused of being a "purist" a time or two also... Guess that's a label I'll just have to live with...

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, this just illustrates the point I was trying to make in the first place. Nothing drives emotion these days like youth sports. It is quite sad, if you ask me.

I think, in a way, living through one's kids is a way of re-directing pressures away from the parents for ever having accomplished anything significant in their own lives...

Vanity of vanities. All is vanity...

John 




chrstphr said:


> it is amazing how many twists and turns this thread has taken in 3 pages. From JOAD subforum, to Junior Dream Team Bias or not, from sportsmanship to noise while shooting,
> from Sponsor shirts or not (earned or not), to Matt haters or not ( whom i do not know and can not comment on any JOAD kids actions), to posters who are making accusations at people hiding behind the internet facade of invisibility.
> 
> all i can say is just wow....
> ...


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Glad my Cadet aged son does not frequent AT. Here's a thought, let's shoot some arrows and have fun!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Who would have thought that 20 years ago, a twelve year old would walk up to the shooting line, competing for "national championship" with the shirt and logos of multiple programs and sponsors competing for the right to use that child's accomplishments to promote their business...
> 
> That's the point we've sunken to in this society. Where a corporation will even claim a 12 year old's "National Championship" title as yet even more proof that their product or program is superior.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what to think. Barb told how sponsorship made it possible for her kid to compete when she and her husband were cash strapped. But I'm wondering about all the other parents who feel they have to buy more gear to compete with sponsored kids like her daughter? Sponsorships generally exist to sell product--to make the company money by giving a little away. To make money they either have to take away market share from other manufacturers or make people feel they must have the latest product to be competitive. So while some deserving shooters like Barb's daughter are undoubtedly financially aided by sponsorships, to what degree may those sponsorships wind up costing other parents a lot more money in the aggregate?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I was talking about kids wearing USA shirts when they are not representing the USA-like at JOAD nationals.


Jim, I should probably add here and make a comment about this. The JDT, JR / SR USAT are required by the powers to wear their team shirt at certain events. It's a bit of a controvercy at times, becasue some of these archers can not represent their own sponsors except on practice day (or wear what ever they want for that matter). We get emails all the time explicitly stating that shirts must be worn.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> Jim, I should probably add here and make a comment about this. The JDT, JR / SR USAT are required by the powers to wear their team shirt at certain events. It's a bit of a controvercy at times, becasue some of these archers can not represent their own sponsors except on practice day (or wear what ever they want for that matter). We get emails all the time explicitly stating that shirts must be worn.


Interesting. I can see why people who pay $$$ to have their companies on JDT shirts want kids wearing that. But I worry about junior archery turning too stratified.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Chris, this just illustrates the point I was trying to make in the first place. Nothing drives emotion these days like youth sports. It is quite sad, if you ask me.
> 
> I think, in a way, living through one's kids is a way of re-directing pressures away from the parents for ever having accomplished anything significant in their own lives...
> 
> ...



Well said John!! You've said it all in a few short sentences.:thumbs_up


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> I'm very confused.
> 
> I don't know Matt or Gary personally. In fact, I've seen Matt only compete a handful of times. The closest that I am to them is that I'm a Facebook friend with both of them.
> 
> ...


Steve, we have experienced all of that and more. Matt has taken more crap than anyone I know, and he doesn't complain. I do that because I am just fed up. Keep up the good work. Thanks again for your understanding.

Gary


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Interesting. I can see why people who pay $$$ to have their companies on JDT shirts want kids wearing that. But I worry about junior archery turning too stratified.


Not really stratifying, more like team building. I understand to a degree though. The new approach ceters on team building, which is what the uniform thing is about.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> Not really stratifying, more like team building. I understand to a degree though. The new approach ceters on team building, which is what the uniform thing is about.


I can see that-if you are one of the team members. As you well know I have all sorts of kids. I have two of the top JDT kids- I had another boy who turned it down for academic reasons, and I have kids who will never be asked to be on it. I guess I am lucky that I can see at least three sides of the issue. And I don't know exactly what the answer is. If parents feel that their kids cannot compete unless they earn or are asked to be in this exclusive "club" its not going to be good for archery in the long run. and the recent developments of having more Jr USAT events favors the kids who can attend more events. I also have seen more than a few people who have the attitude that the only people who ought to represent the USA are those who sacrifice school and work for archery. Maybe at the Olympic level that has some merit, for HS kids I think its very shortsighted. and if the powers that be are suggesting to kids that if they don't put school on the secondary position to archery they really are not dedicated, that is malignant


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Isn't the title of this particular forum: F.I.T.A., N.A.A., COLLEGIATE ARCHERY AND J.O.A.D.?
What is the big deal?
If one wants to look for a J.O.A.D. specific thread, then you look for J.O.A.D. subject matter!

Also, I do believe that sometimes we all let words fly that discourage or anger each other, and sometimes shoot barbs that are nasty, and unnecessary, I have fallen victim of that a time or two, but have gotten all my ducks straightened out with those individuals.

Our (archery) community is small, and we just have to remember that we see each other a few times a year and it is a pleasure to see friends, at tournaments! Happy to come and, happy to leave, we all know that feeling! 

Part of the trouble is the hyper-competitive nature this world has taken. Just look at who our kids are competing with for spaces at colleges. If you are umemplyed and looking for a job, you are competing with all those college graduates, and the graduates are competing with seasoned, experienced individuals. 

I don't know what the answer is to combat the uber-competitive nature we seem to have, but always remember DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU! Then I think we would seem to see a turn around and an understanding of human nature also helps, as nobody likes to be disrespected, because when one deals it out they should expect it to come back 10 fold. (I'm on my soap box!)

As far as a J.O.A.D. sub-forum, not needed IMHO!

I do not post on here often, only because I don't like to see the barbs people throw. I have to agree with the "archery is fun" statement, isn't that why we all shoot? We enjoy shooting. I enjoy competing as well, but honestly, it doesn't break my heart that we are not going to National Target Champioships this year! Maybe next year.

That is my two cents worth.

Barb, I'm sorry to hear your daughter has given up archery, that makes me sad.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I also have seen more than a few people who have the attitude that the only people who ought to represent the USA are those who sacrifice school and work for archery. Maybe at the Olympic level that has some merit, for HS kids I think its very shortsighted. and if the powers that be are suggesting to kids that if they don't put school on the secondary position to archery they really are not dedicated, that is malignant


That attitude is indeed out there, and in varying degrees, but most ppl you talk to strongly disagree with that theory, especially me. Miranda did sacrifice some class time last year, but it only made it harder on her as she still had to do the work and get the grades......of which I'm proud to report that she excelled at. Dedication is required, but which level still seems to be an individual choice.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Nobody is getting rich or famous from archery, and I doubt anyone ever will in our lifetimes.
> 
> Well, let's see you can ask Darrell about the rich thing! One thing I'll have to say when W.A.F. (formerly F.I.T.A.) awarded Darrell with the Athlete of the Century he deserved every accolade! Rick McKinney even said that as well, I believe! D.O.P. os famous in his own right, with those who know him, and with the archery world who knows him!


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Mithril said:


> Well, at least we know where the real problem lies here.


See this is the type of thing we don't need here! DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU!
Also, granny always said, if you cannot say anything nice, then don't say anything at all!

BTW, no need for a separate J.O.A.D. sub-forum! IMHO! This is the original purpose of this thread...WHY do people always have to take a thread off topic? C'mon people! Be civil, answer the questions, and let the politicians be political. We don't need politics in archery, we need to shoot more arrows, not shoot barbs at people on a forum!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lizard said:


> Well, let's see you can ask Darrell about the rich thing! One thing I'll have to say when W.A.F. (formerly F.I.T.A.) awarded Darrell with the Athlete of the Century he deserved every accolade! Rick McKinney even said that as well, I believe! D.O.P. os famous in his own right, with those who know him, and with the archery world who knows him!


I don't know about the public in general, but the only archers I can remember hearing about about before I took FITA Recurve up were Howard Hill, Justin Huish and Geena Davis. 

I get the impression that being a competitive US FITA Recurve archer is mostly a money sink, and that the more you compete the more it costs you, even if you win.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I can see that-if you are one of the team members. As you well know I have all sorts of kids. I have two of the top JDT kids- I had another boy who turned it down for academic reasons, and I have kids who will never be asked to be on it. I guess I am lucky that I can see at least three sides of the issue. And I don't know exactly what the answer is. If parents feel that their kids cannot compete unless they earn or are asked to be in this exclusive "club" its not going to be good for archery in the long run. and the recent developments of having more Jr USAT events favors the kids who can attend more events. I also have seen more than a few people who have the attitude that the only people who ought to represent the USA are those who sacrifice school and work for archery. Maybe at the Olympic level that has some merit, for HS kids I think its very shortsighted. and if the powers that be are suggesting to kids that if they don't put school on the secondary position to archery they really are not dedicated, that is malignant


Oh, what is the ever famous quote from Darrell Pace, Jim Coombe (N.A.A. 2010 Volunteer Coach of the Year) and the whole CJO coaching crew....goes something like this 
"School first, archery second." Why you may ask?! 
Because and education will get you a better job than shooting a bow. 

Back on topic...NO J.O.A.D. sub forum needed! Just going back to John's original post :wink:


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

lizard said:


> Barb, I'm sorry to hear your daughter has given up archery, that makes me sad.


Thanks for that. She likes you and your husband and has respect for you all.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

lizard said:


> Well, let's see you can ask Darrell about the rich thing! One thing I'll have to say when W.A.F. (formerly F.I.T.A.) awarded Darrell with the Athlete of the Century he deserved every accolade! Rick McKinney even said that as well, I believe! D.O.P. os famous in his own right, with those who know him, and with the archery world who knows him!


Lizard...I have a funny story about Darrel. When he was announcing the ******* Round Up at the SI Cup, a family was on their way home from church and they stopped to watch. Someone told them that Darrel was an Olympian. I was near by and the woman shook her head as they left and said "there is no way that guy was in the Olympics." I about fell out of my chair laughing. 

For those that were not there...Darrel really played up the ******* Announce part really well...maybe a little too well. :wink:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> Thanks for that. She likes you and your husband and has respect for you all.


trust me the feeling is quite mutual-I sure hope to see her again shooting one day


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Landed in AZ said:


> Lizard...I have a funny story about Darrel. When he was announcing the ******* Round Up at the SI Cup, a family was on their way home from church and they stopped to watch. Someone told them that Darrel was an Olympian. I was near by and the woman shook her head as they left and said "there is no way that guy was in the Olympics." I about fell out of my chair laughing.
> 
> For those that were not there...Darrel really played up the ******* Announce part really well...maybe a little too well. :wink:


Yea, that was a good day for JOAD archery. I remember it well. He had me laughing so hard in the OR finals that I could barely hold on the target. Now that was pure archery fun that day... We could use a lot more of that in JOAD archery IMO...

Barb, tell Kiley howdy for me and that I completely understand. I have a 16 year-old son that never shoots anymore and while I sometimes wish he would, I completely understand and respect his decision not to. He (like Kiley) excells at many things, and archery was just one of those things. Kiley has a world of opportunity ahead of her, and I'm honored to have been a part of her archery adventures. 

John


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, that was a good day for JOAD archery. I remember it well. He had me laughing so hard in the OR finals that I could barely hold on the target. Now that was pure archery fun that day... We could use a lot more of that in JOAD archery IMO...
> 
> Barb, tell Kiley howdy for me and that I completely understand. I have a 16 year-old son that never shoots anymore and while I sometimes wish he would, I completely understand and respect his decision not to. He (like Kiley) excells at many things, and archery was just one of those things. Kiley has a world of opportunity ahead of her, and I'm honored to have been a part of her archery adventures.
> 
> John


Thanks John. I will pass it on because she likely will not log back onto AT after the crap of this week. It is too bad that politics play such a huge roll in this sport. Kiley learned at 14 what politics is all about and put up with it for 4 years and finally just couldn't take it anymore. I don't blame her a bit. She is doing great and we are holding on to her equipment because if she wants to start shooting again in a couple of years it would be too expensive to do so on her own.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Landed in AZ said:


> Thanks John. I will pass it on because she likely will not log back onto AT after the crap of this week. It is too bad that politics play such a huge roll in this sport. Kiley learned at 14 what politics is all about and put up with it for 4 years and finally just couldn't take it anymore. I don't blame her a bit. She is doing great and we are holding on to her equipment because if she wants to start shooting again in a couple of years it would be too expensive to do so on her own.


This should give everyone involved with youth archery pause. How and why do we loose youth archers? JimC talks about losing the male youth archers to the "three W's" , work, women and wheels. But I fear we have entered a whole new realm and we are running kids off. We have made it a zero sum game and we have too many casualities.

The PGA first tee program has the philosophy of getting a kid to try golf and they have them for life. Take a look at their mission statement: "To impact the lives of young people by providing educational programs that build character, instill life-enhancing values and promote healthy choices through the game of golf.". If we substituted "archery" for "golf" in this mission statement, would that characterise what we do in youth archery? Not by a long shot. We are too focussed on making world teams, sponsorships and Olympic medals. My perspective is a little jaded right now because I have entered a whole new dimension of youth archery. I am working with special needs youth archers and you have never seen such an appreciative group. They have no chance and no desire for sponsorships, world teams or Olympic medals. Their goal is to be able to one day acquire the skill set to be able to compete. They truly do it for the love of the sport.

We should be doing exit interviews for every kid who does not come back to archery year after year. If they have found something more fun than we can accept that. But if they running away from archery rather than towards something more fun, then we need to fix our processes and systems that are running them off. Not all is well in JOADville.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Barb:
I am so sorry to hear about Kiley, she is such a nice young lady, you have done well. I still have the G3s of hers I bought from you several years ago. I no longer shoot them but I have them hanging, along with a picture of Kiley I took in Hamilton, on the wall of the club house for the In The School Program I help with. All the best to her, I am sure she will come-out above all this.

Fritz


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, well said. All is not well in JOADville and again, is part of the reason I started this thread - to illustrate how much drama has overtaken youth target archery in the past 5 years. It has not been good for the sport IMO. The JDT was a good idea, I still believe, but I think there are some things about it that need to be given serious review. The kids of the age to be considered for JDT and Jr. Worlds are NOT mature enough to police themselves as a group. So what that means is that ALL the adults involved in those programs have to be on the same page. Not saying they aren't now, but it just illustrates how important it is to head this stuff off at the pass.

I know less than a year ago, I had to go all the way to Denise to correct the (mis)behavior of one JDT archer, and have recently been involved in the diciplinary actions of another JOAD archer. Some of it is just how bold the kids are these days, and some of it is internet forums like these. But these things aren't going away, so solutions need to be found, and fast.

John


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

Interesting thread. Jay Barrs told me he trained with distractions, made him a better shooter. I suspect the Koreans do as well. I have shot with Matt Zumbo on several occasions and seen him at many tournaments. I have never heard of him blaming anyone else if he didn't make a good shot (which he usually does), nor have I heard his dad complain about other archers making noise (which some do). Matt does what needs to be done on the field, hits the gold and it seems the only way jealous coaches and competitors can beat him is by keeping him off the line. That is the beauty of our sport, the winners are determined in the open. The losers ought to be left to figure out how to train harder, or smarter. They shouldn't sit around conspiring how to beat someone after the arrows are shot. 

The JOAD program is troubled ship and maybe the only way to fix it is for it to be out in the open. If folks want to keep up with the latest scandal they can tune in, if not just keeping scrolling. USA archery had serious issues in the past and the postings help keep folks informed. If people don't have information they can't act. Those with a vested interest in the status quo would be happy to have the issues hidden away in a sub-forum.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Interesting... Houston news station is running a program right now about youth sports and disputes between parents and coaches. Apparently a 10 year old is in a contract dispute. "what is the future of youth sports" they ask...

I'd like to know the same thing. I think we're headed in the wrong direction. Too serious too soon. We're going to have a generation of kids that resent their years in youth sports if we're not careful.

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I'd rather have 100000 kids who have fun from archery than turning out a couple more gold medalists and making 1000 kids despise being in JOAD because if kids love the sport the medals will follow


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

pencarrow said:


> Barb:
> I am so sorry to hear about Kiley, she is such a nice young lady, you have done well. I still have the G3s of hers I bought from you several years ago. I no longer shoot them but I have them hanging, along with a picture of Kiley I took in Hamilton, on the wall of the club house for the In The School Program I help with. All the best to her, I am sure she will come-out above all this.
> 
> Fritz


Thanks Fritz. Kiley just walked in the door from work (her apartment was flooded last night by the guy in the apt above her) when I read this so I read it to her. Very kind words and they are much appreciated.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

TomB said:


> This should give everyone involved with youth archery pause. How and why do we loose youth archers? JimC talks about losing the male youth archers to the "three W's" , work, women and wheels. But I fear we have entered a whole new realm and we are running kids off. We have made it a zero sum game and we have too many casualities.
> 
> The PGA first tee program has the philosophy of getting a kid to try golf and they have them for life. Take a look at their mission statement: "To impact the lives of young people by providing educational programs that build character, instill life-enhancing values and promote healthy choices through the game of golf.". If we substituted "archery" for "golf" in this mission statement, would that characterise what we do in youth archery? Not by a long shot. We are too focussed on making world teams, sponsorships and Olympic medals. My perspective is a little jaded right now because I have entered a whole new dimension of youth archery. I am working with special needs youth archers and you have never seen such an appreciative group. They have no chance and no desire for sponsorships, world teams or Olympic medals. Their goal is to be able to one day acquire the skill set to be able to compete. They truly do it for the love of the sport.
> 
> We should be doing exit interviews for every kid who does not come back to archery year after year. If they have found something more fun than we can accept that. But if they running away from archery rather than towards something more fun, then we need to fix our processes and systems that are running them off. Not all is well in JOADville.


Tom, I cannot be open about the politics that drove Kiley from archery right now but I will soon. I will say that Kiley loved this sport, she loved making teams, she loved traveling and she was proud to wear USA on her back. She grew up in a Marine Corps household and even painted a wall in her room like the American Flag, so of course she wanted to wear USA on her back. She will never forget being down 4-0 in the Pan Am Championships against a girl from Mexico and coming back and winning it 4-6 to progress to the next round. She credits her training on the JDT but more importantly the awesome coaching she got on the line that day from Coach Dee Falks. She almost fell apart and he kept her head in the game. It is times like that, that these kids understand how that can translate into real world success in life. These are life long lessons. Her archery got her the current job she has. We did up her resume of her archery career and the cover letter stated that while she does not have job experience, the fact that she has been training 6-8 hours a day 6 days a week for years was evidence that she has what it takes to be a dedicated worker. Her current boss loved that attitude and hired her after a 20 minute interview.

I will agree that all is not well in JOADs but all is not well in USAA so how could it be. 

I agree that archery has to be fun or the archers will leave. If the kids find it fun to shoot up, like Matt and Kiley and Spencer Yee do, then they should be allowed. If brand new archer Mandi Zachery, age 14 cannot reach 50 meters then she should be allowed to compete at some other level. If Sean Curtin does not want to join JDT because of school, then we embrace his choice. But if Kiley and Mackenzie chose to be home schooled because they want to train at higher level, then why can't we also embrace that? If JOAD team B thinks that JDT is a bunch of snobs and that they should not be allowed to wear JDT team shirts, then why can't JOAD team B coach get with the JDT coaches and ask them to have a group dinner at an event so that kids get to know each on a different level and how about JOAD team B coach arrange for shirts for their team that also has USA on the back of them so that they don't have to have a hang up about the USA being on the back of shirts?

There are solutions out there but we as parents and coaches need to be creative about finding the solutions. No one else will do it for us.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

tjk009 said:


> If people don't have information they can't act. Those with a vested interest in the status quo would be happy to have the issues hidden away in a sub-forum.


Amen.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Interesting... Houston news station is running a program right now about youth sports and disputes between parents and coaches. Apparently a 10 year old is in a contract dispute. "what is the future of youth sports" they ask...
> 
> I'd like to know the same thing. I think we're headed in the wrong direction. Too serious too soon. We're going to have a generation of kids that resent their years in youth sports if we're not careful.
> 
> John


We have a close friend of ours with a child in youth football, and baseball and I guess I missed out, because I didn't have my first broken bone until I was 39. This child is thirteen, and not only has he suffered a broken bone and shoulder issues, but he's also suffered a concussion. He takes ibuprofen on a semi regular basis for his aches. Wow!! What is he going to feel like when he gets to my age. Now I know why he doesn't feel like shooting archery too!! If it were me, I'd just want to go home and rest, as well as finish growing.


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

*On the subject of shirts....*

Just so all of you know, the new JDT shirts no longer have "USA" on the back. People at the top have been listening, and decided to remove "USA" from this years shirts. I believe part of the reason is that some higher ups in USAA heard athletes chanting "World Domination" and thought it was inappropriate behavior. The kids got a lecture on appropriate behavior, and the shirts were changed for this year. The trouble is, a coach lead the kids in that chant. He still wears "USA" on his back. The coach really is a good guy, but he got carried away. We all make mistakes.

The point is, adults should lead by example. Inappropriate behavior by parents and coaches have no place either on or off the field. If the adults can't behave themselves, how can we expect our kids to be good sports? Kids will be kids. They make mistakes. It is up to the adults to model the behavior we want from our kids and correct them if they mess-up. If our kids are not behaving, then perhaps we should take a closer look at ourselves first.

And, just to get back on topic, no I don't think we really need a separate Junior Archery sub-forum. I think we would see too many adults behaving badly in one place. I don't think I could stand all the drama.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

JDT dad, well put. Agree on all counts. 

The kids model the behavior of the adults, which is why EVERY coach and EVERY senior archer needs to conduct themselves with dicipline and respect. There are many, many eyes watching and learning from what we do.

I wonder if some of the sense of "urgency" that I see in the junior ranks to make teams and gain international experience isn't due to the fact that there are very few opportunities available for them once they head to college. A "do it now before I leave home" sort of thinking...

And then there's the ability of parents to subsidize their kids archery until they go to college, then tuition takes over...

I agree with those that think the transition to college kills a lot of our up and coming archers. They are unfortunately faced with a very tough choice about where to put their focus at that time of their lives.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

titanium man said:


> We have a close friend of ours with a child in youth football, and baseball and I guess I missed out, because I didn't have my first broken bone until I was 39. This child is thirteen, and not only has he suffered a broken bone and shoulder issues, but he's also suffered a concussion. He takes ibuprofen on a semi regular basis for his aches. Wow!! What is he going to feel like when he gets to my age. Now I know why he doesn't feel like shooting archery too!! If it were me, I'd just want to go home and rest, as well as finish growing.


This is an interesting deviation that I'd like to comment briefly on. 

We are seeing a physical maturity in kids that does not translate to mental maturity. 

You also have the issue of late boomers to gen X and gen Y members who did not get a chance to explore sports due to a changing educational environment that eliminated opportunities for sports. 

And, you have an increase in medical technology to where common injuries can be cured for a short term effect. 

All that combines to where kids are being pushed too hard in some sports. 

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> This is an interesting deviation that I'd like to comment briefly on.
> 
> We are seeing a physical maturity in kids that does not translate to mental maturity.
> 
> ...


especially sports where parents are banking on a college scholarship

have you seen that funny advertisement where the parents have taught their five year old to dunk with the hope of getting a scholarship

I have always believed that the only way to truly grow JOAD and to keep kids in archery is if archery has a major factor in helping a kid get into or pay for college

example-squash-another sport I coach. There is not much of a pro career for squash players in the USA in terms of a pro tour. There is no Olympics for squash. Yet Cincinnati supports three professional squash coaches because kids with top 20 National rankings are given consideration at top schools like Stanford (women) Navy (men) and the Ivies and Trinity College. You might not get any financial aid but if you are a top squash player your chances of getting into Princeton or Dartmouth go way up. 

of course this had increased the number of obsessive overbearing parents. I watched some boarish nutcase from Cleveland videoing a couple girls I coached (both of whom had top grades and didn't need squash -one plays for Brown the other goes to Duke where they don't have a varsity team-to get into college) so her daughter could get some kind of edge. This woman bragged that her then 14 year old daughter was going to "Play for Princeton" 

but until colleges start treating good archers the same way Harvard treats good squash players or stanford treats top junior tennis players or george-Gymnasts. you really aren't going to see JOAD or Junior FITA archery grow. end of story


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

From personal experience:

I played some sort of contact team sports up until my freshman year in college. I was fully well planning on walking onto ASU's football team when my orthopedic surgeon at that time basically gave me a choice - play sports and run the risk of my thrice repaired left knee to totally blow, or have a "normal" life and choose something else to play. I chose to walk normally (within reason) and gave up contact sports.

When I was coaching baseball for the local Cal Ripken organization, you could see the jealousy in some parent's eyes when they found out that I even played up to only the high school level. You can tell that they had NEVER one chance to play, and they didn't have the mental capacity to know that they can play now. With medical technology (read - really good professional level knee braces), I can play again if I so wanted to in the MSBL. But - I don't. I made my choices to go from Baseball/Football to shooting sports, and I haven't looked back since.

Archery is one of those sports where I try and get the parents to understand the basics of shooting. A case in point is a former teen gymnast who my wife coaches in archery. I got her dad involved (one to get him out of my wife's hair, the other was to show him the basic concepts to look for so that he could continue reinforcing what Susan was teaching). Now both of them shoot. 

With certain sports, we are unable to get the overbearing parents to participate. Luckily, in archery, we can do so. When doing so, you likely end up converting multiple people to take it up.

Putting my former elected school board member hat on (yeah, I was a politician for a while....not one of my proudest moments), I have to comment on three areas.

One - a bachelor's degree is becoming what a high school diploma was 20 years ago. It's a bare minimum requirement showing that you are trainable. Nothing else. The cost to show that you are "trainable" is going up. So, parents (in desperation for some) will look to seek out whatever advantage that they can so that their child can get a free ride, or as close to it as they can come to a free ride. 

Two - colleges will NOT embrace sports such as archery in a good light until they bring in one small thing. Money. There's no money in it for the college. 

Three - Title IX. Enough said. I personally feel that thanks to Title IX, smaller sports like archery get killed off at the collegiate level and are forced to go the club route.

-Steve


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## Hoytfamily5 (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm amazed at people these days. Archery is a sport. In sports the goal is to win something, when the goal is to win something, then obviously someone has to lose. I've known the Zumbo's since I started shooting. They have always been extremely nice and supportive to me and other competitors just the same. Matt goes to tournaments to do one thing: win. If people can't handle their kids losing, then don't go to tournaments with them. When a kid loses, great, it gives them something to work harder for next time. Now I'm extremely new to the recurve world, but not so new to the competing world in archery. Matt displays himself with 10 times more grace and honor than most of the people I've shot with at big tournaments. Fellow recurve archers understand (especially if you've shot a compound as well) how much more work goes into a shot and how satisfying it is when you make a good shot. Let them celebrate. At JOAD Nationals a couple weeks ago during team rounds and such we were cheering and celebrating and everyone seemed to be having a great time, I did for sure! Nationals should be a blast this coming week, and I quite frankly can't wait to cheer Matt on and watch him kick some more serious ass like he did at JOAD Nationals. And you can bet I'll be watching scores and cheering from home while he's in Poland doing what he does best, winning! 
Allison


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

I’ve been following this thread with quite a bit of interest. It has indeed taken quite a few twists and turns, and I not sure where to even begin to add my views to the topics that have been brought to light. I suppose I can start by saying that I really don’t think that adding Junior Archery sub-forum is necessary. I don’t think the traffic on this topic overwhelms that of other topics. I find the mixture of different topics and traffic volume quite satisfactory as it is. People should be thankful that there is a forum such as this one, where disagreements can be brought to light and discussed openly. Next, in my view, archery is too small a sport for any further splintering. It is important to understand that in the grand scheme of things, we are still considered a fringe sport. Archery is not football or basketball, or even swimming. There is not a lot of money involved. There are no full-ride scholarships to be had. As a fringe sport, I believe that strength in unity is required for the sport to grow. There ideally should be an unbroken line of development from JOAD, to collegiate archery, to senior competition. It was very upsetting for me to see collegiate archery leave the USAA family because, in my opinion, that continuity was broken. However, archery is still alive and well in the collegiate arena. I can tell you that the UC Berkeley club is very aware of who’s who in the JOAD ranks, and we are very accommodating of any JOAD archers who may be considering UC Berkeley as their college of choice. We have one of the largest collegiate clubs in the country. Although we have a serious competition team, the majority of our club members practice for recreation only. If anyone out there would like to come visit us, I can arrange for a personal tour, and perhaps talk about college admissions.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

DK Lieu said:


> I’ve been following this thread with quite a bit of interest. It has indeed taken quite a few twists and turns, and I not sure where to even begin to add my views to the topics that have been brought to light. I suppose I can start by saying that I really don’t think that adding Junior Archery sub-forum is necessary. I don’t think the traffic on this topic overwhelms that of other topics. I find the mixture of different topics and traffic volume quite satisfactory as it is. People should be thankful that there is a forum such as this one, where disagreements can be brought to light and discussed openly. Next, in my view, archery is too small a sport for any further splintering. It is important to understand that in the grand scheme of things, we are still considered a fringe sport. Archery is not football or basketball, or even swimming. There is not a lot of money involved. There are no full-ride scholarships to be had. As a fringe sport, I believe that strength in unity is required for the sport to grow. There ideally should be an unbroken line of development from JOAD, to collegiate archery, to senior competition. It was very upsetting for me to see collegiate archery leave the USAA family because, in my opinion, that continuity was broken. However, archery is still alive and well in the collegiate arena. I can tell you that the UC Berkeley club is very aware of who’s who in the JOAD ranks, and we are very accommodating of any JOAD archers who may be considering UC Berkeley as their college of choice. We have one of the largest collegiate clubs in the country. Although we have a serious competition team, the majority of our club members practice for recreation only. If anyone out there would like to come visit us, I can arrange for a personal tour, and perhaps talk about college admissions.


If I may, I'd like to add one more point to this. With JOAD being in this forum, it sees the traffic of everyone interested in the FITA forum. That's a great thing. How many of you have stopped in to see what the kids are doing in the kids forum? I bet nearly none (I know I haven't in a long time). It can be good that these issues, both good and bad, gets seen by the people interested in FITA. Without the traffic, I think a JOAD forum would be absolutely dead and probably rather pointless.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

G.O.A.T said:


> Gary,
> 
> The thing that you are failing to understand is that Brady waits until the other archer is finished shooting all of his arrows before he celebrates. Your son, however, is known for his excessive cussing on the line, his total lack of respect for the other archers, and for his "fist pump"( which just happens to be while all of his opponents are at full draw).
> 
> Although Brady does have a huge celebration in this video clip, he immediately congratulates the other archer and shakes his hand. I have NEVER seen your son do this. That is a total lack of sportsmanship and in my humble opinion, is "very poor form".


Here is another great moment for Brady, and Miranda as well, in Ogden this past week. These pictures were sent to me from a friend at the world cup that said Brady pumped his arm and yelled yeah. They just shot a 40 and tied the mixed team world record. A release of emotion in that thrilling moment of victory. I guess in this situation it doesn't matter that his competitor, as well as others on the field, is at full draw. The celebration with Miranda just behind the shooting line while the match is still in progress is absolutely appropriate in this situation, while Matt's celebration off the line by the spectators tent giving a high five to his friends unsportsmanlike. Another anonymous poster not know what they are talking about and looking stupid once again.

Congratulations to Brady and Miranda for their awesome shooting. Thanks Brady, for growing this sport in the USA and making it exciting to watch. Your passion for what you do is inspiring.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

What is it about a picture being worth so many words... 

Good contribution to set the facts straight.

Never hurts one's argument to have facts in hand...


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

I guess that G.O.A.T does't have anything to say.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gairsz said:


> I guess that G.O.A.T does't have anything to say.


It is probably feeling rather sheepish now:wink:


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Yup! That thar sounds like Darrell Pace!



Landed in AZ said:


> Lizard...I have a funny story about Darrel. When he was announcing the ******* Round Up at the SI Cup, a family was on their way home from church and they stopped to watch. Someone told them that Darrel was an Olympian. I was near by and the woman shook her head as they left and said "there is no way that guy was in the Olympics." I about fell out of my chair laughing.
> 
> For those that were not there...Darrel really played up the ******* Announce part really well...maybe a little too well. :wink:


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

gairsz said:


> Here is another great moment for Brady, and Miranda as well, in Ogden this past week. These pictures were sent to me from a friend at the world cup that said Brady pumped his arm and yelled yeah. They just shot a 40 and tied the mixed team world record. A release of emotion in that thrilling moment of victory. I guess in this situation it doesn't matter that his competitor, as well as others on the field, is at full draw. The celebration with Miranda just behind the shooting line while the match is still in progress is absolutely appropriate in this situation, while Matt's celebration off the line by the spectators tent giving a high five to his friends unsportsmanlike. Another anonymous poster not know what they are talking about and looking stupid once again.
> 
> Congratulations to Brady and Miranda for their awesome shooting. Thanks Brady, for growing this sport in the USA and making it exciting to watch. Your passion for what you do is inspiring.
> 
> ...


Gary, thanks for those photos. Brady and Miranda did an awesome job and should be allowed to celebrate, as any archer should be allowed to celebrate their win. I find it interesting that USAA is currently ignoring this Thread.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> It is probably feeling rather sheepish now:wink:


Or is choking on all the garbage he is eating. :mg:


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