# Who makes the "Fastest Recurve bows?"



## Abel

A super fast trad bow will shoot an arrow weighing 9 grains per pound of drawn weight at a speed of 190+ fps. Morrison makes a recurve called the Arapaho in a one piece or takedown that will shoot over 190. Also check out the DAS Kenetics takedown. It will accept the super performance olympic recurve limbs, but on a shorter 17" riser....perfect for hunting. Here are the links:

http://www.kineticbows.com/

http://www.morrisonarchery.com/


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## Arrowsmit

The Black Douglas w/Hex IV limbs (from Border Bows in Scotland) has tested to be a most efficient design & is rated among the very fastest of traditional bows. Now I much prefer a wooden riser (metal gets COLD during winter hunts) & so am happy that the Black Douglas equals or betters most of the metal risered 'target' bows in performance.

Border Bows 

PS; Tell Sid I said HI.

VicW.


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## JimPic

Another one for the Border Black Douglas w/ the HexIV limbs.My brother has one and this bow is screamingly fast!


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## Viper1

Swiper -

David A Sosa (DAS Bows). Number 2 would be Bob Gordon aka WARF. You can check both out at www.tradtalk.com. 

Both bows use ILF (Olympic) limbs; Warf uses old Compound risers, reconfigured to accept the Oly limbs, and Dave built a short riser from scratch, based on the Hoyt riser geometry. Both bows are dead in the hand and exceptionally fast. Be warned, the DAS with top flight limbs doesn't come cheap, but your getting an Olympic quality bow specially designed for hunting. The Warf bows, are a lot less expensive, and are no slouches. The Warfer I have is one of his slower bows and easily shoot over 200 fps. Not bad for a #53 bow.

Of course, you realize that speed, by itself, is totally useless. Both these bows are great pointers, and extreamely forgiving to shooter error.

Viper1 out.


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## Albertakid

*speed*

"Speed thrills accuracy kills!!"

That being said the DAS or Warf bows are probably your best bet for accurate controlable speed in a recurve.


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## Sagittarius

The Soverign Ballistik and Palmer are known as fast recurves.


Sag.


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## Ia Hawkeye

*Shawnee*

The Morrison bow Abel was referring to is the Shawnee with Arapaho limbs.(recurve limbs). I've been shooting one for two years now. Very fast and smooth drawing with no hand shock!


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## CM Sackett

The Black Swan Hybrid is one of the fastest "styk" bows on earth... period. And like some of the other fine weapons mentioned already, it does so as part of a total performance package (i.e. smooth, sweet, stable, quiet... ACCURATE).

BLACK SWAN HYBRID 

Whatever your choice, ENJOY!


As Always;

Sackett


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## martin

there's quite a few fast recurves. the top of the heap are the DAS, Border, Morrison arapaho, and when you change strings to equal the speedster strings those come with is perhaps the fastest of the lot, the horne's ridgerunner. i've tested many of the above and the hornes is my pick. the DAS is the most forgiving, but metal if that bugs you. it doesn't bug me. the border is fast but expensive in the DAS range, the horne's can be had for anywhere from roughly half the others up to around $900 bucks.


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## Arrowsmit

Hmmm...well if we're including longbows we'll certainly have to include Adcocks ACS CX too. :teeth: 

VicW.


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## deadeye

Rivers Edge


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## archerdave

Fedora makes a longbow thats been independently measured at 211fps
I should know i got one and it is awesome


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## DAS Kinetic

*arrow speed*

The problem with speed claims is that it is SO easy to "cook the books". In order to believe and compare speeds, bows would have to be tested according a strict protocol that included noise level on hunting bows. There would also have to be a truly independent testing laboratory to conduct the tests. Neither exists. Anyone who has done speed development knows that you can gain or lose 5fps with the bat of an eyelash. I have clocked speeds on my bows over 250 fps within the accepted operating envelope of the bow, and using a shooting machine. Does that mean you will see that speed?? NO! There is no way anyone would get that speed shooting fingers.
The other issue is stability. It is easy to push the limits of a bow to get a high chrono reading and have conditions that are unusable in the real world.
My best advise for anyone looking the fastest bow is to get the bows side by side and shoot them with YOUR fingers over a chronograph, listen with YOUR ears, and measure the groups YOU shoot.

The truly "fastest bow" is the one that delivers the highest speed, at a high level of stability, and hunting level noise. That narrows the field real quick!

The reason you will never see industry wide testing is because none of the manufactures want it. There is only room for one number 1, and that would leave everyone else being something less. It's much easier to cook up a sweet sounding number and then try to convince you it is true.

That, my friends, is the naked truth!


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## Janek

Hi guys
Check out those bows. Really fast!!!
www.grozerarchery.com

BR
Janek


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## GottaBustaBuck

fastest recurve? thats like saying the prettyest fat chick in the trailer park. yall need to get some good bows if your gonna bust a critter. if tanto was alive today hed hunt with a matthews.


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## CM Sackett

DAS,

Your post kinda surprises me.

The "naked truth" as to why there aren't any "independant testing labs" for conducting such comprehensive "standardized" speed/stability/db tests (speaking ONLY for the styk crowd now...) is because it's not a paying proposition... FOR ANY LAB. And such tests would be diminished in their overall relevance to the 'real-world' hunter because of the UNSTANDARDIZED myriad of personal choices each hunter brings to his rig... string and serving type style/silencer type and amount/arrow/fletch/nock/release aid (i.e. glove, tab, finger,etc.) and release style.

Do some "cook the books"? You bet yursweetbippy they do! Does their "chatter" stay on the air long?

NOPE.

DAS, I have nothin' but respect for the fine machines you produce (a cursory search of any/every post I've ever put forth will show I've never once badmouthed ANY man's work), and I'm proud for you on those numbers... we've gotten similar speeds from the Black Swan Hybrid, with

* T/D limbs
* On FITA riser (complete with elevated rest, plunger, etc.)
* Shooting FITA reg'd 6.5 gr./lb. from a 38# bow
* Shot at 30 inches AMO
* Shot from shooting machine w/ release mechanism
* Actual average speed... 253fps

You'll notice, we never waved any flags about it... and you're correct, NO ONE should expect THOSE numbers in a workable hunting configuration.

____________________________________________


"...The truly "fastest bow" is the one that delivers the highest speed, at a high level of stability, and hunting level noise. That narrows the field real quick!..."

That, my friend... IS the "naked truth".

In the T/D world, your fine weapons are definitely in contention for top honors in the OVERALL catagory. I congratulate you on pushing the envelope in your arena with such dedication to class, quality and total performance. Good luck with it in the future!


As Always;

Sackett


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## DAS Kinetic

*Yep*

Sackett,
Yea, there wouldn't be enough business to keep a lab in business, but there are many independent labs that do all sorts of testing for industry. Underwriters Laboratory is perhaps the best known.

I also agree that the test results are only for comparison, and not the only factor in picking a bow. Just like gas mileage is to cars.

One thing is for sure. There are a lot of good choices out there! I've never shot a Black Swann, but I 've never heard anything but good things about them too. There are also some pretty good vintage bows and limbs around. I got a hold of a set of old Hoyt carbon wood GM limbs awhile back. I thought they would make a good knockaround set of limbs, until I ran them through the chrono. Big surprise! They rank right up there with the best modern limbs.

Hopefully I'll be able to get to some of the big shoots this year and we can meet up. I'd love to see your work!  

David


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## CM Sackett

The honor will be mine, my friend!

BTW, I am looking forward to adding one of your top-of-the-line screamers to my personal stable next Spring (I've heard that much good about yours, as well...).


Until Then;

Sackett


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## Arrowsmit

I suppose the closest thing we have to an "independent testing lab" would be Mr. Norb Mullany & the testing he does. But then, he does seem pretty credible, doesn't he?

VicW.


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## martin

The only problem with norb's tests is that he doesn't standardize use of strings and that can have a huge impact on performance.


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## DAS Kinetic

Norb has a sterling reputation, but as I understand it, he tests the bows exactly as delivered. If a bowyer sorts through 20 bows to find the fastest one, then puts a light string on it with a 5" brace height, you could easily get "certified" results that are no where near what the average customer is likely to get. Norb also doesn't do any sound testing and stability or vibration tests in conjunction with the speed tests. You could have a bow that tests out wicked fast, and sounds like a .22 going off. By the time you silence it down to hunting level, the results could be much different. On the other hand, another bow that was a bit slower, might need only minor silencing, and in the end come out faster.

On the face of it, it seems like the bows should all be tested with the same string, but that is not actually true. If you did that, the string could favor a bow that is slower, and make a very fast bow seem so so. This is because the interaction between the bow and string is a dynamic one. The bows should be tested with the string that the manufacturer specifies as correct, but NOT a ringer string designed for a chrono queen. If stability, vibration, and noise are taken into account, you will get the most accurate assessment of a bows true performance.


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## CM Sackett

The standardization of Norb's tests come from the AMO standards for testing speed performance (as DAS mentioned, nothing about db or harmonic "afterplay" in the bow/limbs).

While it is true that Norb tests each bow with the string the bowyer sends with the weapon, keep in mind... THAT string and THAT "recommended" brace height are the bowyer's prerogative. Every test is done

* On the same shooting machine
* Drawn to the same 30 inch AMO draw length
* Utilizing 9gr./lb arrows
* Shot enough to give a 5-arrow average (I believe that's the number...) 

While it is true that there can be some measure of variance in the speeds achieved between two bows set up differently, 2 things remain...

* Each bowyer had every opportunity to setup and send the bow "best" suited from his stable for such a test (Norb's tests are basically about SPEED POTENTIAL...) BEFORE Norb touches it.

* Using a word O.L. is fond of, "horsepower"... is horsepower. I.E.... if Dodge, Chevy and Ford agree to a "Pike's Peak" pulling challenge, where each one hooks up to the same 2-ton sled and runs to the top of Pike's Peak in a clocked event... after the fact is a little late to be complaining about, "Oh yeah, well SURE! If I'd had THOSE tires or THAT paintjob... well, well... I'da done thus-n-such!!!".

Sending a 9gr./lb. arrow across the lights at (XXXfps) is far more about the marriage between design, materials AND craftsmanship... than about a string, or serving, or what color shorts a man was wearing that day... PERIOD.


It's been said to the point of adnausium (I've said it myself), that there's a hell of a lot more to "PERFORMANCE" than just speed.

But it DO come into play!


Have A Grand Evenin' All;

Sackett


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## Arrowsmit

Hmmm...maybe one reason we don't have 'standardized testing' is that ppl can't [wholeheartedly] agree on what _constitutes_ 'standardized testing'?  

VicW.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

*cronie tested*

Lots said but figures really tell the story . I have a hoyt gamemaster 50lb, with a carbon light speed arrow at 29" draw it shot 6 arrows through the cronie at an amazing 247 fps . Again this is a metal riser, glass limbed bow, this is a sweet shooting bow which can be shot off the shelf . Just a thought I like this bow so much I have 2 of these, one 45lber as well as the 50lb. These bows sit on the wall with the other 20 or so trad bows I own and love to shoot as well. Again we should quote facts or test result articles from magazines as answers to a good question put out to the rest of the forum.


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## DAS Kinetic

Vic,
Yea, that would be a problem for sure because everyone would want test parameters that favor their bow!

CM,
We agree again although your presentation is so much more colorful!  

This thread is about speed so that is what I'm focusing on. Personally, I think the obsession with speed takes the spotlight off of other more important aspects of bow performance in the real world. Who would want to drive a nitro burning funny car to work everyday?? Unfortunately, speed is one of the few things that we can put a hard number on, so that is where the attention goes. Really, everything I've written so far has been to send the subtle message that maybe we all need to look beyond that number to find the qualities we really want in a bow. It's like meeting a great lady with a law degree, who can cook and follow a blood trail, but all you're focused on is her boobs. Gotta look at the big picture, but I suppose we should start another thread on that rather than hijack this one from Swiper :teeth:


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## CM Sackett

"...It's like meeting a great lady with a law degree, who can cook and follow a blood trail, but all you're focused on is her boobs. Gotta look at the big picture..." :thumbs_up :tongue: 


I do hereby pass the "colorful" crown on to its new monarch!!!


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## martin

cm sackett, i agree it's every bowyers prerogative, however, the string is one of THE most important variables, both in diameter, weight, lack of stretch, no. of strands and how easily the arrow nock is released from the string. just the last variable i mentioned can affect arrow speed up to 10 fps. the string material can be that much or more so my point was to say that if you have some bow being 20 fps faster in the hand than another bow, the reality is the difference if on a level playing field might be less than 2 or 3 fps, if any difference depending on the bows in question. the importance of standardizing the string variable cannot be overemphasized. the adcock's imho are the benchmark and they are shipped typically with 10 strand d-97 strings so that's what i use to do all my tests.


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## LBR

> fastest recurve? thats like saying the prettyest fat chick in the trailer park. yall need to get some good bows if your gonna bust a critter. if tanto was alive today hed hunt with a matthews.


Actually it would be more like asking who is the prettiest girl in town that doesn't require a fancy dress, push-up bra, a ton of makeup, BOTOX, a Corvette, and rich parents to make her appealing. As far as the second part of your statement goes, you obviously don't know diddly about the history of archery or even current events. Every game animal that can be taken with a bow has been killed at one time or another with a recurve and/or longbow, including elephants, lions, Cape buffalo, Asiatic water buffalo, brown bear, black bear, polar bear, etc. etc. 

Other than the above, there's been a lot of great points made, but I find myself agreeing with DAS the most--and according to reports, this is a man that has every right to be in the bragging circle concerning speed (I haven't shot one of his bows myself, but I have read quite a bit about them).

As for the original topic of which is fastest, I really don't know. I haven't shot all of them, and some of the ones I have handled didn't appeal to me, even though they were fast. A few I've shot that were touted as being the absolute fastest at one time or another were very average. 

"If speed was my only objective in archery, I'd shoot a compound"--I'm sure you've heard that, and there is a lot of truth to it. If that is all you are after in a bow, you won't get the fastest in a traditional bow. I do like a bow with good speed, but there are many other factors that come into play. Since it's already been done, I'll use the lady scenario again. I like to look at a pretty woman as much as any man, but I've met several that, regardless of how nice they looked, I'd never want to be committed to because of their attitude. You get the bad right along with the good.

The attitudes towards speed have bothered me for a while--it seems to be THE selling point for some bows, and it seems that many--especially new archers or new converts from compounds--are eating it up. It worries me because these new guys may get frustrated and give it up completely when they can't control a bow that has been touted as THE best bow on the market, period. I've shot with guys that are among the best in the world, with bows and set-ups that were geared for the best speed, and when they make a little mistake it really shows up. Guys that are shooting machines--so where would that leave the average guy that doesn't spend hour upon hour working on form?

Another question I have is how do you measure "forgiveness"? Some of us that have several years worth of shooting behind us might consider a particular bow to be very forgiving, but for someone just getting started it might be very picky. We already know our weak points and what to watch for. We know what designs in general add to or subtract from a forgiving bow, but how do you really compare?

I have already forgotten who mentioned strings (and I'm not going to go back and look), but they do make a huge difference on some bows, and one bow may "like" a particular material better than another. For instance, I had a fellow tell me not too long ago that he picked up approximately 20 fps with a particular string material on a particular bow. If I didn't know him as well as I do, I wouldn't have believed it--that is an uncommon gain for just switching string materials. However, when he put a string from the same material on a different bow, he lost a few fps. I am starting to believe that, at least on some bows, the number of strands in a string can make more of a difference that I ever thought also. I don't like a tiny string, but there is a growing trend towards those on many bows, and the only benefit I know of is picking up a few fps.

I'll leave it at that, as the subject has been covered and there is nothing more I could add to the information given.


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## DwayneR

excellent post Chad....


Dwayne


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## DAS Kinetic

Chad,
Your comments about strings are exactly right. I've done hundreds of hours of testing with a shooting machine, chronograph, and sound measurement equipment to find THE string for my bows. I also compared notes with one of BCY's engineers to sanity check my findings. There are a lot of misconseptions about strings and the role they play. I put a rather lengthy post on Leatherwall yesterday if anyone cares to read it. The thread was called "? about 450 strings" or something like that. Thinner is definitely not always better. Certain strings can definitely favor one bow over another. That is why I am against any testing that uses one string for every bow. These tests have to include noise and string stability as well. Here is one example. When I compared my bow to one well known "fast" custom with bare strings, the difference was about 6fps. The "fast" custom, however was far noisier. When both bows were silenced to the same noise level, the difference was 13 fps!
If anyone was in a position to crow about speed, I would certainly be among them, but I honestly believe the arguement is pointless. If you took the ten fastest bows available today, they would all fall within a 10fps window, I'd be willing to bet. The problem is that many of the fastest bows are really not very shootable. What separates the very fastest bows are things like noise, handshock, vibration, consistency, forgiveness, and overall handling. That's why, somewhere back there I said the very best approach was to get the bows you are attracted to, and shoot them side by side. Don't listen to anybody's claims about their bows. Make up your own mind based one what it does for your shooting. The truth IS out there, but it doesn't end with speed numbers.


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## Swiper

Oh my God what have I started!!!! LOL
Well thanks for narrowing my choices  
You guys crack me up, but I have learned quite a bit from DAS & CM Sackett among others on this site. Your professionalism clearly stands out. 
Never thought I would get so much response.
Keep the Posts goin!!!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

*speed*

guys guys guys the question was what is one of the fastest recurves ! Try to stick to the point, and if you are a bow maker give some specs like poundage and draw length and weight of arrow used to obtain the speeds you have quoted. Also I would hope this is with the stock string you ship the bow with. THe truth sells best and use the kiss method, sometimes too much info and personal opinion just baffels your next customer. Again 20 or 25 replys by only 4 or 5 guys sounds more like a chat room than a forum thanks


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## Viper1

Classic -

The few guys involved in the chat session are probably some of the best people to be discussing this topic. I might debate things with them (and have), but I'll always listen to what they have to say; they know where they're coming from and have paid their dues. The points that were brought out are quite relavent to anyone who wants to know "whats the fastest recurve". This has also been one of the most professional threads on the topic I read in a long while. It's very easy for something like this to turn into a "my bow is faster than your bow" thread, it hasn't, that that speaks volumes.

I don't mean any disrespect, but this is one quality thread. :thumbs_up 

Viper1 out.


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## DAS Kinetic

Classichunter,
If I or CM came on here and posted a number of XXX, someone else would immediately come along and post a number of XXX+3, and then XXX+6. Look at any discussion in the archives and you will see what I mean. Pretty soon you have some guy with a 30 year old grizzly supposedly shooting 250fps. I know it sounds like double talk. Until I got into building and testing bows, that's what I would have thought too, but the best answer I can give you is none at all. When a customer calls and orders a bow, we discuss the performance level they are seeking. If I can meet or exceed that expectation, I tell them honestly; if not, I tell them ...honestly. When I ship a bow to a customer it is sent with complete test data on that bow with the proper string that will be used to hunt with. My bows always deliver what I promise in writing, but to start making claims on a forum like this is pointless. The numbers I posted above were with a shooting machine set at 30" draw, but those numbers cannot be attained shooting fingers with light arrows. Machine results are usually very close to real world once the arrow weight gets up around 10gr/lb, but light arrows cannot be released that efficiently with fingers. In fact, even a bad mechanical release will drop the speed 5fps. Sorry if that disappoints! I'll leave the optimistic posts for someone else.


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## LBR

> I don't mean any disrespect, but this is one quality thread.


I agree 100% Viper. This is the best, and most HONEST information I've ever seen posted concerning bows and speed. It's not kicking out a bunch of numbers and bragging about who is fastest; it's relative and pertinent information. Shoot, DAS has (almost) got me wanting to shoot a recurve! 

We many not be able to narrow it down to who actually does have the fastest bow on the market, but we have got some excellent information; and we can see that very often which bow is fastest depends on who tested it and under what conditions.

DAS, I'd love to see what you said about 450+, but I have not been welcome on that board for several years now. From what I've seen, it's not nearly as popular as it was a few years ago.


Chad


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## GottaBustaBuck

yous from mississip so yous ok with me hoss. wasnt trying ta rattle no one. didnt meen no disrespect neither. matthews even makes one of them old type bows now so they cant be all bad. never knew so much tech stuff went into them type of bows neither. how far away can you bust a critter with one?


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## DAS Kinetic

Chad,
Yea, I don't post over there much anymore. Truth is, I don't post anywhere much anymore  . I just sent you an email and pasted the LW post in for you.

David


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## LBR

No problem GBB--but honestly, do a little bit of research on traditional bows--my bet is you will really be suprised. They don't shoot 300 fps, but they will do the job. A whole lot less complicated, lighter, and once you get the hang of it, easier to shoot. My "modern" longbow will shoot faster than my old Hoyt Finalist II ever thought about.

Shot distance depends on the nut behind the bow. Personally, I don't care to take shots at animals much past 20 yards, but in most of the places I hunt you are lucky to get a shot even that far--way too thick. Ben Pearson, Howard Hill, Fred Bear, etc. are recorded making kills at well beyond 50 yds--sometimes past 100 yds. On the video "The Legendary Hunts of Ben Pearson", Ben kills several ducks and pheasants on the wing with his recurve, and a javalina at well past 100 yds. I'll shoot at targets at whatever range you care to put them at. Heck, let me pick the shots and I'll shoot a dollar a shot against a compound shooter--and I'll come home with extra money in my pocket.

Got is DAS--thanks! It's not so much that I don't care to visit the lw anymore (and actually I don't), I haven't been allowed there in several years.

Chad


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## CM Sackett

ON POSTING "NUMBERS"...

DAS got it right. 

Classic, we all (BLACK SWAN, DAS, ADCOCK, BORDER, etc.) have a passion for building the highest performing sweetstyks, # for #, in history. But with over 200 years of combined shared experience shooting, designing and building weapons of this type... every one of us KNOWS that "speed" is one factor among many that culminate in a "performance" bow that's apt to put a smile on generations of like-Passioned faces.

Can't speak for DAS on this, but the rest of us HAVE, in the process of dream, design, build and test, put together a rocket launcher or two, that gave speed beyond even our current offerings... that never made it into production. They were either unstable (limbs too flimsy at the tip for long, trustworthy service life), uncharacteristicly rough to draw (erratic draw curve... not the same as "stack"), inherently LOUD... or just plain UGLY once we got 'em in our hands.

Except for the above mentioned figure (which was part of an in-house test of a alloy-risered option... with a consideration for FITA shooters/specs.), I have never posted #'s partly for the reasons stated by DAS. My main reason however is because of what I mentioned above, the "unstandardized", almost endless individual nuances that each man brings to his setup.


One final NOTE:

Swiper, you can rest assured (directly COUNTER to what some may intonate...), that any one of the "performance" weapons from any one of the craftsmen mentioned above will NOT BE A DISSAPOINTMENT~~ in the realm of speed... OR THE REST OF WHAT MAKES TRUE PERFORMANCE. Each will deliver total performance...

* Blistering speed 
* Smooth draw
* Quick pointing
* Sweetness of shot (quiet, steady release of arrow)
* Consistently deadly accurate shot capabilities

The 3-piece T/D models will deliver the quieter, "deader" feel. This is due to their mass weight.

The one-piece models will be almost as "sweet", every bit as quick, and at far lighter weights (The Black Swan weighs in at a featherlight 17-19oz. TOTAL WEIGHT).

Who honestly makes the "fastest" bow on earth, recurve OR longbow?

Any one of us... at any given time (you see, we are ALL continually refining, tweaking and expanding our passion for TOTAL performance weapons, kinda like Ferrari, Lambourghini and Mazeratti) :thumbs_up 

Which one could please you?

Any one of us... at any given time (you see, we ALL put our very BEST into every styk we make so that you can get the MOST out of every shot).


As Always;

Sackett


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## ripantuck

*Speed*

If you want to upgrade your speed while retaining good shooting qualities and a quiet bow, you may very well be disappointed with any recurve out there. I've been shooting zippers for almost 15 years and have tried many touted bows without ever finding one that is as fast, quiet and stable a a Zipper. Your best bet may be to simply get a set of bamboo limbs for your Zipper. 

Otherwise, you may want to try a DAS, which is extremely well-engineered and capable of using any new limb designs that come along. The Borders seem to have a consistently good reputation for speed and shootability, but inconsistent on build quality and reliability.

I won't get in to the longbow argument. Pete Ward is in the process of doing reviews on the various ACS bows as well as the Black Swan's and he seems to be very reliable and fairly objective.

Of course, you may find a bow that just shoots really good for you and is very fast. The only way to find out if there is one like that out there that you will like better than the Zipper is to simply do a lot of trading and trying.

Don


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## GottaBustaBuck

chad, that dude busted a piggie at 100 yards with one of them bows? thats some fine shootin. were can i get a copy of that tape? sounds like some fun suff.


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## CM Sackett

Here's a couple of pics of the Carbon Classic "FITA" bow. Arvid utilized one of his old FITA risers. The bow came out 68 inch overall length, and 38# @ 30 inch AMO.









"Carbon Classic... FITA-style"




According to FITA specs, this 38# @ 30 inch... 68 inch cruiser... shooting 

* 6.5gr./lb. arrow
* 8-strand D97 string
* shot from elevated plunger-type rest
* drawn to 30 inches
* shot on shooting machine w/jaw-type release
* Averaged 5 arrow speeds

did the following...









"FITA speed"


DAS, can you put a couple of images up of your sweetstyks? I'd love to see a close-up!


Sackett

BTW, you'll notice the "backing wedges" between the limbs and the shoe... that was to create the proper/standard geometry used by the Hybrid limbs (he didn't want to screw up a perfectly good/beautiful riser just for a test...).


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## Arrowsmit

Great thread w/some interesting thoughts from all. 

- Good stuff!

VicW.

PS: CM Sackett, IMO your last post on page 1 of this thread is outstanding!


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## CLASSICHUNTER

*in response*

WELL WELL seems some of the responses where read. my point being is alot of run on , but the last response from cm sacket hit the nail right on the head well done facts ,specs ,figures and pics just what the original question asker was probably looking for plus now we really have bragging rights out there, and I`m sure that this is sweet acurate bow to shoot, excellent. Now the person can take this info and make a good non bias decision on what bow he wishes to purchase. I was not trying to run anyones product down but being in marketing and retail and having owned numerous businesses that where very succesful sticking to the point is the best point of sale. I`m looking forward to meeting some of you guys at either denton or michigan long bow shoot next year to share a cup or two of joy. TED


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## DAS Kinetic

*nice!*

WOW Sackett that bow is pretty enough to take to the dance!! :tongue: 

I'll see if I'm smart enough to load some pics of mine


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## CM Sackett

Sweet styks!!! For some reason, I'm drawn to the one on the right in the second image (like the lines of that grip!).


Have a great evenin' all;

Sackett


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## Swiper

DAS whats the difference in the three bows?
Is one more geared toward hunting than another?
I am still new at this and am always willing to learn. I am 6'ft tall and draw about 28inches or so?
Which one would you recommend for me?
I originaly started this tread and have been highly impressed your professionalism. 
If you don't feel comfortable addressing my questions here, PM me.


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## Hank

Sackett

If you take a piece of paper and line it up with the belly side of the limb butts in that picture, the deep part of the grip is ahead of that. Now thats the stable geometry I look for in a bow.

Kudos to Arvid for a bow that would not only be stable (and I bet that it is) and is getting excellent performance, as well. 

The DAS is another well designed bow that uses stability as its platform.

Chad said: *"I've shot with guys that are among the best in the world, with bows and set-ups that were geared for the best speed, and when they make a little mistake it really shows up."*

That right there says it all and confirms what I believed to be the truth. Unfortunately, in trying to have an honest discussion about performance, loyalty overrides truth any day of the week.

Hank


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## DAS Kinetic

Swiper,
All of my bows are built to be hunting bows. People are winning tournaments with them though. Most of the ones I've shipped to Europe are being used by competitive target archers. They are basically a hybrid between an Olympic competition bow, and a hard core hunting bow. The three pictured were all built for different customers. The black one was designed to shoot from a Double Bull blind. The green gripped one was shipped to a guy in Denmark who is a national longbow champion and worldwide hunter. The middle one went to a customer in Mississippi. I build them to meet specific needs. You can learn more about them at my website and forum: www.kineticbows.com . There is a link there to reach me as well. Thanks for asking!


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## DAS Kinetic

*3 alarm chili*

Hank,
It's a little like a chili cook-off. Every cook has an idea of what good chili is, and a recipe to get there. No matter how good the ingredients sound though, the proof is in the tasting


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## CM Sackett

... and sometimes it's wonderful to have lunch at the festival, because there's so many good cooks.

Eat to your heart's content... we'll all keep COOKIN'!


As Always;

Sackett


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## CLASSICHUNTER

*Now Your Cookin*

DAS nice bows , A picture is worth a thousand words. You`ve got my interest and will definetly look at your product for the future thanks


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## gregvisser

Those DAS bows sure do look good - especially the camo job. Just a silly question from my side: How far would you be off if you'd get a Hoyt matrix 23" riser (in Safari say), stick some ILF carbon limbs on it at say 50# and use that as a hunting bow? I have no idea how this would compare to a DAS in price, shootability and even speed, but surely you'd be swimming in the same pond?

Excuse my ignorance.

Greg


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## DAS Kinetic

Greg,
You could certainly hunt with a Matrix, but it would make an awefully long bow (64" minimum). The DAS can be had down to 58". You also can't get draw weights much over 50# unless you have a very long draw. The DAS can be had as high as 60#@28". I just put a post under the Gamemaster thread that explains a lot more.


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## gregvisser

Thanks for clearing that up Dave. Much appreciated - makes good sense. For some a Hoyt Matrix could work though - as you said, guys with long DLs. 

Cheers,

Greg


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## king 3933

*Fastest Recurve*

You can not go wrong with a Bob Morrison or Mike Fedora bow, both men are first class bow makers.


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## bownty hunter

*get a martin*

i say u should get a martin dream catcher its beautiful and strong it´ll fit u best


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## LBR

Just something I remembered to throw into the mix........

In Scott Antczak's video "Dead-On Traditional" he shows chrony speeds in the 240's with an over-the-counter Martin recurve shot with fingers. I didn't care too much for the video, but it's some food for thought.

Chad


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## fraeg

*B L A C K W I D O W*

Hi
I have an Black widow gray bark and I must say it is the fastest Bow I've ever see!!! I must shot an 2419 from easten or an Big Game 100 + from Gold Tip. I cant shoot wood because if I want do this the wood must have a spine of min 107!!!

hm.. I forgot.. my Bow 
Black widow 
60'' 66 lbs @29'' 
and a special fast flight String 

I think my English is to bad to write her.. but I would say this.. )

Greets from Germany

Frank (fraeg)


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## MickC

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Lots said but figures really tell the story . I have a hoyt gamemaster 50lb, with a carbon light speed arrow at 29" draw it shot 6 arrows through the cronie at an amazing 247 fps . Again this is a metal riser, glass limbed bow, this is a sweet shooting bow which can be shot off the shelf . Just a thought I like this bow so much I have 2 of these, one 45lber as well as the 50lb. These bows sit on the wall with the other 20 or so trad bows I own and love to shoot as well. Again we should quote facts or test result articles from magazines as answers to a good question put out to the rest of the forum.


You have two of these bows! wow that in itself is a very good recommendation. I have been thinking of getting a bow that I know is accurate but along with all the speed talk, I haven't heard anything about accuracy. When I use to rifle shoot, they would measure rifles in accuracy by grouping. Does this exist in archery? I know that arrow manufactures talk about grouping but doesn't the bow play a large role in that as well. 
My question to you is... how well do you group your arrows with your gamemasters and why do you have a 45 and a 50lb version? what are the applications you use them for i.e. one for hunting one for target shooting?

Thanks


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## J. Wesbrock

Posting speed figures without listing arrow weight is somewhat pointless. I'll bet I could shoot 250 fps with a 40-year old Bear Grizzly and a Dacron string if the arrow was light enough.


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## LBR

I agree 100% Jason--that was my point. With a long draw, shooting machine, tiny string, etc. the numbers look much more impressive than they will with the bow in the average archer's hands. Comes back to there being no set testing standard. Heck, I bet I could get 240 fps or better from my longbow, and I have a shorter draw length than you. 

After someone comes up with a standard for testing speed, I wish they'd work on some sort of scale to measure "forgiveness". Can't see that happening though....... 

Chad


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## LBR

Frank, I'm not meaning to slight your bow, but it does not really require such a stiff shaft. This is an illusion created by a shelf that is cut well past center. Build your strike plate out some and you will be able to shoot "normal" spined arrows. Built out properly, you should be able to shoot 75-80 or 80-85# spine with 125 grain points.

To prove this to yourself, simply shoot your bow through a chronograph and compare the speed with any other good bow. If your bow actually has the power of a 100# bow, then it should get the speed of a 100# bow. That would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 175-190 fps with 1,000 grain arrows, or over 200 fps with 700 grain arrows. My bet is it will fall short.

BW bows are reasonably fast, but pretty average when compared to any other well made bow. Lots of very fast bows on the market these days.

Chad


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## CLASSICHUNTER

*Why Two Mic C*

MIC C you asked why two , first these bows group arrows in a coffe cup at twenty yards if I`m on . Larry who shot at the trad shoot in west winfield can probably verify this to you as he saw the bow perfoirm and he owns a das bow whichw was the first I had seen. also the reason I have two is one is camo and the other black one 50 lb pounds for hunting and the 45 for 3-d in door and also I`m getting older and the 45 takes less out of me when we shoot 80 or more shots in a session . hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction


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## 3 stinky dogs

Don't mean to boot leg the thread but I noticed alot of custom guy's were mentioned. How about the the fastest among the big name bow makers like Bear, Marten, Etc.. Etc. or is there really any difference between there products when it comes to raw speed ?


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## Marshall Law

http://www.habubows.com/vk.htm

These are some sweeeet looking and very fast bows!


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## steve morley

Marshall Law said:


> http://www.habubows.com/vk.htm
> 
> These are some sweeeet looking and very fast bows!


That is a lovely looking bow but WAY out of my price range, think if I was going to spend that kind of money then a Stolid Bull Riser and Hex6 limbs would be my first choice, I can appreciate where the money went into R/D, building and materials a little bit more.

Makes me smile when guys get all excited when their bow shoots around the 230s, a Turkish Horn flight bow (that is primitive horn/sinew) shoots around 300 to 350fps depending on arrow, keeps it all in perspective for me


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## Marshall Law

steve morley said:


> That is a lovely looking bow but WAY out of my price range, think if I was going to spend that kind of money then a Stolid Bull Riser and Hex6 limbs would be my first choice, I can appreciate where the money went into R/D, building and materials a little bit more.
> 
> *Makes me smile when guys get all excited when their bow shoots around the 230s, a Turkish Horn flight bow (that is primitive horn/sinew) shoots around 300 to 350fps depending on arrow, keeps it all in perspective for me *



Yes but their arrows were in the 300 grain range and their bows were upward of 150#. Not an even comparison 
Drop those weights to 60# and add a 600 grain arrow and they wouldn't be as fast as a Bear Kodiak


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## Easykeeper

Marshall Law said:


> http://www.habubows.com/vk.htm
> 
> These are some sweeeet looking and very fast bows!


Yes they are indeed!


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## Chupacabras

Marshall Law said:


> http://www.habubows.com/vk.htm
> 
> These are some sweeeet looking and very fast bows!


$1950 for the bow/ $1200 for limbs, That would kill my wallet faster than any other bow for sure.


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## Beendare

Seems like we are witnessing a sea change right now with all of the static tip designs- and they are all very fast. 

It will be interesting to see if this design can stand the test of time. I look at the beginning of this old thread and remember my buddys Black Swan that the limbs just snapped on the 3rd draw- one of the early "Carbon" lam bows. Seems like the carbon guys have it down now.


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## bbakaitis777

Swiper said:


> I was interested in finding out who makes some of the fastest bows in traditional archery. I own a beautiful Zipper Bow and am looking to further my collection. Let me know what you think my next purchase should be!!!!!!


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## 1canvas

I think some of the regular people like MontanaMarine on you You-Tube do a pretty good job of checking speeds.


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## Kelvinsbow

Spent a lot on them too
Aside from the cash its more than worth it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Beendare

Funny seeing my comment back in 2013. 
Some of the custom guys were just starting to crank out those static tip recurves to try and compete with the up and comer Border. 

Now the Border big hook design is the Gold standard when it comes to pure speed. 

My Uukhas are pretty fast....but not quite Border or Morrison Max fast.


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## MikeD52

Anyone who makes a “super curve”. Border, Centaur, Zipper


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