# Switchback Tuning problem? PLEASE RESPOND!



## apbarton (Oct 14, 2005)

BY nature I am an incurable perfectionist. When I first got my SB, I used the laser tuner by EZ-EYE to adjust for perfect center shot. I have a Trophy Ridge Drop Zone Rest and center shot has my horizontal mark on my dropzone rest all the way to the very right where it doesn't go any farther. Since this is supposedly center shot, looking at my vanes they seem to be contacting the riser. I have paper tuned w/ field tips and BH's and am getting a left tear about 8 o'clock 3/4"-1" long consisently. Thinking that my fletching was causing a kick off the riser to make this tear I went off Mathews center shot inline grip (and the moved rest to the left), that made the tear even worse. I put a lighted nock on to see if that would help me w/ tuning. The arrow comes off the bow like a left-handed curve ball, starts at the left then cuts to the right. I want to watch my arrows fly as straight as possible for the best point of impact, I owe it to the game I pursue. My arrow is well centered with the plunger hole and the nocking point looks level with the drop zone arm. My arrows are spined correctly (Easton axis 400, 27 1/4" long, approx weight = 400 grains) Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and taken into serious consideration.


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## gabe branscum (Dec 6, 2002)

*right tear is weak*

i believe left tear is too stiff try a weaker spined arrow and move knocking point just my .02


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

The SwitchBack is an outstanding shooting bow, but requires a little effort to get it this way. First of all set the "Idler wheel lean". Place an arrow with a field point flush against the idler wheel, twist the yoke cable until you get enough "lean" so that the arrow's field point is touching the string at your nocking point. You also have to be sure your axle to axle is 33 inches on the side opposite your shelf. If this is set properly your brace height should be 7 inches. The last thing is cam rotation. There is quite a few discussion about this here, but basically if you run a thread up the 2 holes in the Cobra Cam, the thread should be parallel with your string. These adjustments require a little bit of work, but it'll pay off tremendously in the long run. My SB was shooting great out of the box, but after 100 shots, the problems began. After searching here on AT and the Mathews forum, I got her driving nails 3 zipcodes away. Good luck to you.


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## apbarton (Oct 14, 2005)

(First of all set the "Idler wheel lean". Place an arrow with a field point flush against the idler wheel, twist the yoke cable until you get enough "lean" so that the arrow's field point is touching the string at your nocking point. You also have to be sure your axle to axle is 33 inches on the side opposite your shelf. If this is set properly your brace height should be 7 inches. The last thing is cam rotation. There is quite a few discussion about this here, but basically if you run a thread up the 2 holes in the Cobra Cam, the thread should be parallel with your string.)

What are you taliking about, I am not quite sure I understand any of this? Tune this tune that, its a mathews solocam it shouldn't have to be freaking tuned!


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## 2thepoint (Jul 30, 2004)

"What are you taliking about, I am not quite sure I understand any of this? Tune this tune that, its a mathews solocam it shouldn't have to be freaking tuned!"[/QUOTE]


You ask for advice in the "Bow Tuning" forum and someone was considerate enough to take the time to respond with a suggestion. You reply to that response that your bow shouldn't have to be "freaking tuned". 

I'm confused??? :embarasse


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## RicknKansas (Jul 2, 2005)

What are you taliking about, I am not quite sure I understand any of this? Tune this tune that, its a mathews solocam it shouldn't have to be freaking tuned![/QUOTE]

If you want help, you'll have to listen.
First the SB is NOT a center shot bow. Good advice was given before before.
Set the center of your rest 13/16" from the inside of the riser. Make sure ATA is 33" measured on the opposite side of the limb from the sight window. Set cam timing ( as mentioned before). 
Then check idler lean ( described before ) it should look like this. Keep in mind this picture was taken at an angle to show arrow shaft and it's on a left handed bow, so it might look a little backwards to you.
If you haven't shot your bow more than 300 times don't bother doing this yet. you need to let the string stretch and settle in or you'll be doing this all again soon.

Rick


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## Mo/ Bowhunter (Apr 2, 2005)

The lazer will not work on a Mathews bow. Measure from berger hole on the riser to center of arrow while its on the rest, Should be 13/16 and then fine tune from there.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

Also, make sure the sun is shining and the wind is out of the east!


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

I can understand his frustation ! all the hype about mathews bows and it's out of tune out of the box ! Sad part is every bow needs some tuning out of the box! anyone that says different is just blowing smoke or just don't know better!


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## apbarton (Oct 14, 2005)

*apology*

Hey Rick and others,
I apologize if I came off rude, I was just stating the obvious about my confusion and frustration. I was open and am still open for words of wisdom, I apologize if I offended anyone on behalf of my frustration. Accept my apology, and thank you for your help. AB


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## Keith Thompson (Jul 17, 2005)

*Switchback tuning*

I have had my Switchback for about 3 months now. Getting it to shoot consistently was frustrating at first but now I am doing really well. Everyone seems to agree that these bows are sensitive to hand torque. It took me over a month to get a method of hand placement that allowed me to shoot consistent. Try different hand placements and see how that effects your shots. Let another shooter try your bow and see if they get the same results.


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## Midlife Crisis (Mar 24, 2004)

A basic tuning/setup sequence for a Switchback

String: 91 ¾”; Cable: 35 ½”; Serving: 0.025” 62 braid interlocked

All measurements will be done with the bow weight maxed out. 

Before the limb bolts are moved, the brass allen-head bolts on the right side of the bow will be backed off one turn. The brass allen-head bolts will be tightened before the bow is shot.

If the lower roller bars press against the riser (instead of the limbs), prior to the bow being put in a bow press, the limb bolts will be backed off seven full (360 degree) turns. This is not necessary for the Sure-Loc bow press, which presses against the limbs with both rollers on each side of the bow.

The objectives of tuning are to end up with:
(a)	an ATA length of 33"
(b)	Brace Height (BH) at 7" [measured to the back of the string (closest to the shooter) from the center of the burger hole] or 6 7/8 to the front of the string.
(c)	cam rotation that is perpendicular to the riser at full draw (not tilted).

#1. Check ATA - If it is too long twist the cable loop clockwise until ATA is exactly 33". If it is too short, twist the cable counter clockwise. It's not desirable to untwist the cable and unless someone put too much twist in it (and it is doubtful that this occurred).

Check ATA on both sides of bow. If they are not the same, see step #4.

#2. Check Cam Rotation/Timing - Run a straightedge across the two small holes in the cam, it should be parallel to the bow string. 

If the alignment of the two holes points towards the bow string (from the outside cam hole to the inside cam hole), add an equal number of twists to each end of string. 

If the hole alignment points towards the riser, add twists to cable at cam end.

#3. Check Brace Height (BH) -If steps #1 & #2 are set to spec, BH should be 7" from the center of burger hole to back edge of the string. (Shooter side of string).

#4. Check idler wheel for lean - The top of the idler wheel should be perpendicular to the upper limb at full draw. 

If idler wheel is leaning to the right, twist left yoke cable; 

If the idler wheel is leaning to the left, twist right side yoke cable. 

This check must be done at full draw. It's possible for the idler wheel to be perpendicular to the upper limb at full draw and not when the bow is at rest and visa versa.

#5. Install the arrow rest - Starting point for the center of the arrow while on the rest is 13/16 from the center of the riser. Appears 11/16 or 3/4 may final position....

#6. Install a string loop or nock - arrow should be in line with the burger button hole and 90 degrees to string. Mathews suggests starting the nock 1/8” high on the string.

#7. Shoot approx. 200 arrows and then check all of the above measurements for movement. Correct as required.

#8. Attach all accessories, i.e., Peep, stabilizer, sight, etc. Installing the peep: rather than separating the string between colors, separate right down the center of the string so there are an equal number of strands on both sides of the peep. 

#9. Paper tune - With fletched & bare shaft arrows. Make adjustments as required. This has been difficult for a lot of people to do, with many getting a left tear. Some have resolved the left tear issue by adding a twist or two to the left yoke of the cable. The limb will have some flex from the cable guard but I feel that if you straighten out both sides of the harness and then put 8 full twists on the right side and then 7 full twists on the left side most of these left tear problems would vanish.

#10. Final Tune - Shoot groups at 40+ yards or at a distance you're proficient at. Try Walk-Back method. Also, see how field points and broadheads group at 40-60 yards. 

=============================
Setting ATA (per Vince on Mathews Inc chat):

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/bulletinboards/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11710

There has been much discussion about ATA and setting it properly. I have had many Switchbacks that needed tuning and one thing I have noticed is that rarely is there any consistency in how the idlers are aligned. This is due to the harness knots settling during the shipping procedure. Every single bow that I've tuned has allowed me to obtain a bare shaft bullet hole with the centershot set at 13/16" with the following method: Keep in mind that this is for a RH bow ant the opposite sides would be used for a LH bow. The right and left are used as you're looking at the bow like you're holding it to shoot.

I max out the limbs to take my spec measurements. I back out the limb bolts 6-7 turns (7 usually but 6 if I feel too much thread resistance) and then press the bow. I take the cable loop and twist until the ATA measurement on the right side measures exactly 33" from the centerlines of the axles (31.5" for Outbacks). Once this is set with the limbs maxed out I look at the cam to see where it's orientated. I adjust accordingly until the timing holes run parallel to the bowstring putting equal twists in both loops of the string to maintain the balance of the factory twist. After this is done I set my nocking point directly inline with the center of the berger button so my arrow sits perpendicular to the string. I then set my centershot to 13/16" at the berger button.

Once this is accomplished I use a carbon arrow shaft (no bending) with a field tip to set my idler. I take the shaft and run it along flush on the left side of the idler wheel at a length that permits the field tip to end at the nocking point. I then twist the left side cable harness so that the field tip point touches the string at the nocking point. At rest the idler is canted outward from the riser on the top and inward at the bottom (the idler is canted at the top to the left and at the bottom to the right), but at full draw it's straight up and down.

Every Switchback and Outback I've done this to, along with setting the rest at 13/16" centershot has enabled me to shoot a bare shaft bullet hole through paper and arrow flight at longer distances has been superb. I use this same method for the forum members who have sent their bows to me with the same stellar results.
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Response 2: (Bob Jenkins): here at the factory we set the ATA on the arrow side of the bow only and adjust the yoke system to make sure that the string tracks off the idler wheel straight at full draw……. how the bow fits in YOUR hand will determine the amount of twist that go into the yoke system and your axle to axle may or may not be the same on both sides ...........
You may have to twist the cable quite a bit to get the brace height measurement right. Then the string will take even more twists to get the cam timing right. A general guideline is for every twist you put in the cable (cam end) put two in each end of the string.

Do not add more than four twists to the cable at a time and do not twist the cable to the point that you exceed the factory spec., or bad things could happen. After each twist series, take the bow off the press max the limbs out and check the brace height and cam timing. If they are not correct back the limb bolts out 7 turns and put the bow back in the press and repeat until you get the bow in spec. Once the brace height and cam timing are right the axle to axle will fall in place. Do not be too concerned if the axle to axle is off by as much as 1/8 of an inch.
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Lining up holes on cam: if the inner hole tips towards riser twist up cable and if inner holes tips towards bow string put EQUAL twist into the string on each side of the cam... Twist the cable at the cam end, and the string equally at each end.
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The idler wheel lean is key! Take an arrow (preferably carbon) and lay it flush along the left side of the idler wheel with the bow at rest. The tip of the field point on the arrow should be at the center of the string when it is near the nocking point on the string. This means at rest the wheel is leaning with the top of the wheel leaning slightly away from the riser. If the arrow tip is to the left of the string (away from riser) when you measure it, add twists to the left side of the yoke until you get this alignment. This allows the string to feed into the wheel properly. If your cam lean is set properly, the ATA on the right and left side will not be the same, that's why you should just measure it on the right side and only adjust the left side of the yoke.
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## RicknKansas (Jul 2, 2005)

apbarton said:


> Hey Rick and others,
> I apologize if I came off rude, I was just stating the obvious about my confusion and frustration. I was open and am still open for words of wisdom, I apologize if I offended anyone on behalf of my frustration. Accept my apology, and thank you for your help. AB


Apology accepted!!!!
You have to have a bow press to tune a SB. Follow the recommendations above and it still won't be completely tuned, it will be close but you can get better out of it.
The only way you will get a bow that doesn't need to tuned is if you invent it. Other than that we tweak the best we we can......
Do the above and report back, we'll step you through the rest of it.

Rick


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

apbarton said:


> ... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and taken into serious consideration.


Obviously not the case.


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## skidmark (Nov 3, 2005)

Get a Sureloc x for that $600 SB
and have at it....


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## stain (Jan 6, 2004)

*single cams*

need to get a dually. they tune much easier.


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## Fitch (Oct 6, 2005)

*Questions?*

My Switchback is starting to loose accuracy, it has around 200 shots in it I suppose. I thought maybe it was the hand torque everybody has been talking about but now I think may it is the bow. I have a few questions from the above statements.

What is the berger hole?

Some say check for idler and cam lean at full draw, yet if you use the arrow method shown above the bow is at rest? Which one?

How do you check for lean at full draw, just by eye?

Could I use a small square to check for lean?

When you guys say back the Switchback out 7 full turns, I assume you max the weight out first? Another words I have a 60 to 60 pound bow that I shoot around 63 pounds, do I just back out 7 full turns from there or max the cams out first?

Has the post Mathews models had this much problems with idler lean and or cam lean? I know keeping the bow to specs is important for a solocam so I usuall do that. This is going to a first having to worry about things leaning.

Thanks guys!! Good info!!


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## shadowdrak (May 21, 2005)

Fitch said:


> My Switchback is starting to loose accuracy, it has around 200 shots in it I suppose. I thought maybe it was the hand torque everybody has been talking about but now I think may it is the bow. I have a few questions from the above statements.
> 
> What is the berger hole?
> 
> ...


The berger hole is the hole that you thread the screw in to attach your rest. You can measure draw lenght and brace height from there, as well as a few other things.

As for checking for cam lean, to get it more accurately, draw the bow and have someone look at your idler while your drawn and have them see if the idler is leaning to the side. If so, by twisting and untwisting the various cables attached to the side of the limbs, you should be able to correct it.

Always max out the limb bolts before trying to get it the maximum weight down (tighten up as much as you can). From there, you can back it out. Usually every full turn equals about 2-3 pounds up or down, depending on the way you are moving the limb bolts.

Hope this helps.


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## GMM (Jun 19, 2004)

I would have to say it is the way you grip the bow.


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

I ran into the same problem and by setting my "idler wheel lean" without drawing the bow is as described previously. I placed an arrow against the idler wheel on the arrow side of the bow. Adjust the yoke cables until the field point of that arrow is touching the string at the nocking point. I did not use the full draw method as described, I use this one and haven't had a problem since. I have shot it out to 80 yards with unbelievable results.


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## pblawler (Apr 7, 2005)

*Tuning guide*

http://www.lawleroutdoors.com/Artic... Tuning&Call=Hunting/Hunting.asp?Game=Archery


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## txdukklr (Jan 9, 2003)

lovely

I understand almost none of that . . . . .


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## pblawler (Apr 7, 2005)

*Understand*



txdukklr said:


> lovely
> 
> I understand almost none of that . . . . .



Explain and I can help. Twisting cable and string to reduce axle to axle length, and increase brace height. Twist cable to rotate the cam clockwise, twist the string to rotate the cam counter clockwise. Horizontal rest and vertical nock adjustments away from the direction of the tear, tear dirtection is from the point to the fletching part of the paper tear.


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## BRONZ (May 15, 2005)

*13/16??*

I bought a Switchback in January and out of the box I could drive sewing needles with it at 20 yds. Now I'm shooting 2-3" groups. I'm trying to put some of the advice given above to work, it seemed to me like the 13/16" measurement from the berger brought the arrow out to the left quite a bit. Is it supposed to be this way? I was also looking at the idler wheel lean. Based on what people are writing with the field point touching the nocking point; is the cam supposed to tilt somewhat when the bow is at rest?

Also, I switched to a whisker biscuit from a prong style. Any feedback on this decision with a switchback.

Lastly, I'm considering putting a wrist sling on to help with hand torque. Anybody else doing the same?

Thanks...


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

> I have paper tuned w/ field tips and BH's and am getting a left tear about 8 o'clock 3/4"-1"


 Your nocking point is too low,should be 9o'clock.


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## pblawler (Apr 7, 2005)

*Tuning*



PurpleVane said:


> I bought a Switchback in January and out of the box I could drive sewing needles with it at 20 yds. Now I'm shooting 2-3" groups. I'm trying to put some of the advice given above to work, it seemed to me like the 13/16" measurement from the berger brought the arrow out to the left quite a bit. Is it supposed to be this way?
> 
> *Yes*
> 
> ...


No Prob


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## lefteye (Oct 24, 2005)

*ATA "approximately"*

I'm curious. The superb expert tuning advice in this thread encourages twisting SB cable "until ATA is exactly 33"". Mathews site, brochures & ads always state the ATA is approximately 33". Please help me understand this. Is Mathews simply being cautious because the people assembling their bows and the people working on them at pro shops are imperfect humans?


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

PurpleVane said:


> I bought a Switchback in January and out of the box I could drive sewing needles with it at 20 yds. Now I'm shooting 2-3" groups. I'm trying to put some of the advice given above to work, it seemed to me like the 13/16" measurement from the berger brought the arrow out to the left quite a bit. Is it supposed to be this way? I was also looking at the idler wheel lean. Based on what people are writing with the field point touching the nocking point; is the cam supposed to tilt somewhat when the bow is at rest?
> 
> Also, I switched to a whisker biscuit from a prong style. Any feedback on this decision with a switchback.
> 
> ...


Good info exchange here! :thumbs_up 
Here is my take on your questions and no disrespect to others.

13/16" is a starting point, it varies from shooter to shooter.......

NO, the cam NOT supposed to tilt at rest or full draw. I, too, use the arrow touching the nock method to get it right. Sounds like your string(s) may have stretched a tad. Is your cam still in synch? 

I personally dont like the WB's but that is not to say they are not good, a gazillion people cant be wrong  I prefer a good dropaway rest like the MZE or TT.


As far as wrsit slings are concerned......remember the reason why people use them to start with.....with proper back tension shooting, it keeps you from gripping the bow and/or dropping it. Some guys have no clue why they have a wrist strap. And some have it TOO tight and that in itself can create torque!


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## Huntnjerms (Nov 2, 2005)

*Grip*

Any sugestions on keeping the SB grip from sliding up in your hand when it's wet?


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## timboj (Mar 9, 2004)

*Great reference!*



pblawler said:


> http://www.lawleroutdoors.com/Artic... Tuning&Call=Hunting/Hunting.asp?Game=Archery


:thumbs_up


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## sjb3 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Huntnjerms*

it would seem me that if your hand is slipping when wet, then your current hand position might not be right and you might be inducing hand torqe. Just a thought.


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## arclite2 (May 4, 2005)

According to Art at mathews laser tuning one of their bows is next to impossible because of offset limb pockets etc and to measure 13/16 out from riser and paper tune.I myself wished i knew this before hand because I wasted 27 bucks getting laser tuned.:teeth:


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## Huntnjerms (Nov 2, 2005)

*tiller?*

One adjustment i don't recall seeing is tiller. Does this adjustment still matter with the switchback? If not, why?


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## johnnymel (Nov 10, 2005)

why would you ever spend all that money on a bow that needs constant tuning. Isnt the purpose of buying expensive equipment so that you dont have to mess with it all the time. Just a thought. Nowone I have talked to, not even Mathews shooters speak highly of the Switchback. My advice is to shoot another bow maybe Outback similar but with less tuning issues or the LX if you want to stay with Mathews.


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## txdukklr (Jan 9, 2003)

Listen I know I'm an idiot for not knowing but let me tell you I really want this bow to shoot awesome and frankly I'm about to go get my old hoyt from a buddy and shoot it instead cuz i'm not confident.

First, out of the box, tack driving. Then string stretches, I get it put back, few hundred more shots and darn it if it didn't stretch again. Someone says bad cables on the SB so I go and get a stone mountain, all seems good in denmark again as my peep is perfect no rotation blah blah.

This weekend I shot it through paper and seriously a four inch right tear. I'm about to freak, I shoot a dozen arrows have someone watch me to make sure I"m not tourqing every shot same result big four inch tear. I read the tuning chart and start moving my rest, I have a dropzone, and it gets better and better until I run out of room to move it anymore. about a half inch right tear, I'f I used feathers they'd probably hit the riser, not completely sure that my blazer aren't clipping em on the way out.

I look at the two timing marks and they're off, not much but they are not parallel with the string. I don't have a bow press and don't know *** i'm doing anyway. 

I love the bow and now has sentimental value, (fiancee bought it) but I'm about to throw the sob int he river and go get a hoyt.


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## Huntnjerms (Nov 2, 2005)

I have wanted to wrap my sb around a tree several times myself.....it's an addicting bow for some reason...anyways i had a matthews tech suggest a rest thats not a drop away and that has helped me out quite a bit. Anyways just a simple suggestion that might help you out. good luck


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## pblawler (Apr 7, 2005)

*SB tune*



txdukklr said:


> Listen I know I'm an idiot for not knowing but let me tell you I really want this bow to shoot awesome and frankly I'm about to go get my old hoyt from a buddy and shoot it instead cuz i'm not confident.
> 
> First, out of the box, tack driving. Then string stretches, I get it put back, few hundred more shots and darn it if it didn't stretch again. Someone says bad cables on the SB so I go and get a stone mountain, all seems good in denmark again as my peep is perfect no rotation blah blah.
> 
> ...



Try indexing your arrow nocks while paper tuning, (rotate them 5 degrees at a time). The slightest contact using Blazers will do it. Also idler lean is a possible cause.

Sorry my tuning guide will be out of commission until my tommorrow, server maintenance.


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## BRONZ (May 15, 2005)

I've been reading about all the problems that some people are having with the Switchbacks. Last night I took mine to the shop to have it looked at. The proshop guy looked it over and found nothing wrong. He took it back to see how it was shooting and drove 3 bullet holes from 10, 7, and 3 ft!!! I took the bow from him are showed him the tears I'd been getting. He gave me a 30 min. lesson on shooting form, we changed my release, and I punched an X . I'm also going to try a TT Shakey Hunter instead of the whisker biscuit.

In short, it wasn't the bow... it was all me!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Im amazed*



txdukklr said:


> Listen I know I'm an idiot for not knowing but let me tell you I really want this bow to shoot awesome and frankly I'm about to go get my old hoyt from a buddy and shoot it instead cuz i'm not confident.
> 
> First, out of the box, tack driving. Then string stretches, I get it put back, few hundred more shots and darn it if it didn't stretch again. Someone says bad cables on the SB so I go and get a stone mountain, all seems good in denmark again as my peep is perfect no rotation blah blah.
> 
> ...



First of all do you have a Mathews dealer in the area? Yes a good set of strings would be a good start. Now Im using the oringinal set on mine. I have tuned alot of Mathews. Im betting ten the one your nocking point is the promblem. I have several dealers in my state that love a challenge and yet to solve any promblems with a Mathews bow tuning it. After season send it to Crackers and Ill garnatee it comes back like a well tuned oiled machine.
DB

PS
I shoot mine off the risor with no wooden handle. Works great for me.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Johnnyme*



johnnymel said:


> why would you ever spend all that money on a bow that needs constant tuning. Isnt the purpose of buying expensive equipment so that you dont have to mess with it all the time. Just a thought. Nowone I have talked to, not even Mathews shooters speak highly of the Switchback. My advice is to shoot another bow maybe Outback similar but with less tuning issues or the LX if you want to stay with Mathews.


Switchback has sold like wildfire here in my state. We dont have anyone bringing them back in. Switchback sure works well for me and plenty of the guys I have set them up for.
DB


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