# Talking and discussing yardage after the shot rule!



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Has always been my thoughts that it was against the rules to discuss yardage after the target shot in ASA. 

I know guys in my groups often did this at pro ams. I was quilty of it as well.

With today's videos running with sound it been caught on video. 

How many follow this rule? Would you DQ someone in your group for asking? 

The fact is these are the rules and they should be followed to the TEE! Just a thought and discussion thread here.

DB


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## crashnburn715 (Jan 12, 2014)

I think the rule is silly excepting that needs to be done discreetly if done to avoid influencing others, judging is part of the game so naturally we occasionally like to verify what might of happened with a bad shot. I try not to make a point of it and typically don't ask unless shooting way out of it. Discussing yardage is a two edged sword as most people are honest but they are your competitors and at a national you are asking relative strangers to help you, I might be a touch jaded but given this game is so much mental there are people who will exploit that.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

known yardage, we discuss it before we shoot!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jimb said:


> known yardage, we discuss it before we shoot!


Better watch out for liars! Might get in your head! LOL

DB


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## Stickhunter97 (Feb 25, 2014)

On the way to the target we will ask what they put it for just because we like 2 see what everyone had it at and I don't think that's wrong


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Stickhunter97 said:


> On the way to the target we will ask what they put it for just because we like 2 see what everyone had it at and I don't think that's wrong


Even if you know the rules say no discussing yardage. 
DB


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## Stickhunter97 (Feb 25, 2014)

I don't know if the clubs we have around here follow ASA or not though... We have pretty big shoots here around spearfish and rapid city SD... I don't think it's a huge deal to talk about it after the shot. At the end of the day your going to win or loose and that's not going 2 make a huge difference...


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Has always been my thoughts that it was against the rules to discuss yardage after the target shot in ASA.
> 
> I know guys in my groups often did this at pro ams. I was quilty of it as well.
> 
> ...


I feel there is a fine line in EVERY rule. For example, (correct me if Im wrong) that after you release a arrow, your to walk away from the stake. However I see ALOT of pros that shoot, the immediately glass the target with there binos. Iv seen Levi, Gillingham, and Brooks do this on Bowjunky videos. (Theres prob more I just cant remember the names)

Would I disqualify someone for that NO. Would I disqualify or cause a stink about discussing yardage AFTER the shot....Nope. The arrow is in the target. If gives no advantage to the other shooters.

I do understand what your saying about it being a rule. Theres lots of rules that are not enforced. Everything seems to flow smoothly (for the most part).

I do feel like with the ASA having the recent rule change in the pro class that things are goin to get interesting.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I will sound like a stick in the mud here, but this casual, cavalier, informal approach to our sport is a part of why profesional archery will never go anywhere. It is absolutely the only pro sport that doesn't adhere precisely to the rules of the game and, in fact, gives the big finger to the rules. Personally, I have many times heard the yardage to my next target more than a few times.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rsw said:


> I will sound like a stick in the mud here, but this casual, cavalier, informal approach to our sport is a part of why profesional archery will never go anywhere. It is absolutely the only pro sport that doesn't adhere precisely to the rules of the game and, in fact, gives the big finger to the rules. Personally, I have many times heard the yardage to my next target more than a few times.


One reason I addressed this was a new archer to 3d told me it happened to him. I had told him to know the rules before shooting a larger tournament. He also mentioned the glassing rule as well being broken many times as well. Sometimes trying to help someone new to the sport I dont know what to say when things like this are asked. RSW your correct. I feel make the rules and abide by them.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

CMA121885 said:


> I feel there is a fine line in EVERY rule. For example, (correct me if Im wrong) that after you release a arrow, your to walk away from the stake. However I see ALOT of pros that shoot, the immediately glass the target with there binos. Iv seen Levi, Gillingham, and Brooks do this on Bowjunky videos. (Theres prob more I just cant remember the names)
> 
> Would I disqualify someone for that NO. Would I disqualify or cause a stink about discussing yardage AFTER the shot....Nope. The arrow is in the target. If gives no advantage to the other shooters.
> 
> ...


I disagree it does help one who is struggling on yardage that day. Example you let me glass the 3d target with my rangefinder after each shot and I will score better. When we practice at my buddies we dont use range finders until after the targets are shot for this reason. This IMO is why the rule is in place, it is an advantage knowing what the target you just shot was! PLus like RSW says often ranges are close and you could certianly over hear the group in front of you disscussing the yardges as you walk up.
DB
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I just watched a video of a Pro group and they discussed yardage as they walked back from the target........ 

Once I got decent at shooting it did me no good to talk about the yardage with others in the group. Also I've learned that how people judge and shoot a target is different. If I'm shooting with my training partners I could benefit from talking yardage after the shot because I know how they manage a target. Two archers can center punch the 12 AND shoot it for two different distances. Newbies and non-contenders may find discussing yardage after a shot helps them. If I could use _my_ rangefinder after shooting it could or may help if I'm having an off day. 

Personally, AFTER I shoot the arrow I know exactly how far the target is. If I shoot a real ugly shot the distance is not very important. The best 3D'ers, like pro's, don't get help from talking yardage after shooting since after shooting they KNOW the distance or should.

If you shoot 6" groups at a given distance then talking yardage _may_ somewhat help your confidence after blowing a shot, i.e. my yardage is good my shooting sucks or my shooting is good my yardage sucks. Those guys that are very good shots know within a yard after shooting a target.


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

Bow Junky Miced up Chance Beaubouef and you saw them talk yardage after shooting the target and while walking to the next target, a guy on the next target asked chance what he shot that target at and chance replied 5.5 referring to 25.5 yards. Chance knew when he shot he needed to move his pin 1 more yard to hit his spot, there is no need to talk yardage. talking technique is another story. i also heard the group talk where they aimed based on a reference point. Another guy in chances group also asked to look at chances scope to see his yardage after chance made a good shot. 

I dont see a problem talking yardage with your group but the group behind you may hear you talk about it and now know ok this target is between 25 and 27 yards based on your shooting technique. that makes it unfair. if guys want to look at the guys scope after they all shoot i dont see a problem with it because i would like to know if i judged poorly that target i wanna know how much.


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## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

Is the "intent" of the rule not to discuss before all have shot, or period? Not questioning, just curious.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Post that rule do we can see the wording of it


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

In all Unknown Distance competitions any form of range finding is prohibited: 
All distances will be judged by the naked eye. No equipment, including but not limited to sights, binoculars, or spotting 
scopes will be used in a manner inconsistent with this prohibition. Using any part of the shooter’s body is prohibited, 
which includes “gapping techniques” that may also use equipment, or the “stepping off” of the distance to, or from, any 
target. Shooters may carry “target cards” reflecting a picture or rendering of the specific targets being shot, but no 
marks or notations of any type may be made on these cards. In addition, the prohibition on marks or notations 
includes carrying, or making, any additional notes about yardages or features of any target on a competition range. 
Exchanging target information with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is also strictly 
prohibited. Violations will be referred to the Competition Committee. The first offense will result in disqualification of 
the shooter from the event. A second offense will result in a suspension for the remainder of the tournament season 
with no refund of any entry fees paid. 
• In all Known Distance competitions: 
For ranges designated for Known Distance competition, yardages will be provided  as measured within a one yard 
tolerance based on the equipment used. Shooters may elect to use range finders, but may not delay the time allowed 
and are required to share their information if requested by another competitor in their group. Using any part of the 
shooter’s body is prohibited, which includes “gapping techniques” that may also use equipment, or the “stepping off” 
of the distance to, or from, any target. Shooters may carry “target cards” reflecting a picture or rendering of the 
specific targets being shot, but no marks or notations of any type may be made on these cards. In addition, the 
prohibition on marks or notations includes carrying, or making, any additional notes about yardages or features of any 
target on a competition range.


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## C.morris740 (Nov 11, 2012)

It says while shooting, so technically discussing yards walking to target after group has shot is ok?


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## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

Exchanging target information with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is also strictly 
prohibited.

Another gray area...does "while shooting" mean that round that day...does it mean that target...kind of llike the you can't "re-adjust" your sight after using binocs rule...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

C.morris740 said:


> It says while shooting, so technically discussing yards walking to target after group has shot is ok?


It is interesting! I have been told there is another rule that says no discussions until arrows have been scored. It obvious that it happens alot and I for one would like to know is it OK or not. I have always been under the understanding there is no discussion of yardages.
DB


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Here's some that have been brought up, for the sake of everyone being on the same page and a few I see that are not followed regularly. lol

-After you set your sights and draw your bow, you cannot reset your sights after a letdown. Penalty: A score of zero 
for that target. 

-A group may not approach the next shooting stake until the group occupying that stake has fully cleared the area. 
Anyone advancing to the next stake and interfering with the movement of the other group will receive a score of zero 
for that target. Anyone found examining or touching the equipment of another shooter without permission shall be in 
violation of Competition Committee Rules paragraph D-1 “Unsportsmanlike Conduct.” 

-All arrows must remain in the target until all arrows are scored. The arrow shaft must be touching a portion of the next 
highest scoring line to be scored for the higher value. All scoring shall be done with the naked eye without the aid of 
any special magnification with the exception of prescription glasses or contacts. The status of any doubtful arrows 
must be determined before drawing any arrow from the target. The score is based on the status of the arrow while all 
other arrows remain in the target. Arrows may not be removed until a scoring judgment has been made and no 
changes may be made to the score after removal of any arrow. Targets may not be moved or dislodged for scoring 
purposes, and shall be returned to their proper upright position upon removal of the arrows. If both Scorers are in 
agreement, the score will stand. Should the Scorers be unable to reach an agreement, the Scorekeepers (except on 
a call of their own arrow) will alternate the responsibility of making the final determination before any arrows are 
removed. Groups will be responsible for calling their own arrows. ASA Range Officials will not make arrow calls 
except when a group has only two shooters or during special competitions and shoot-offs. . 

Reading the rules is key, enforcing them is key as well. At the end of the day I really enjoy my time at ASA events and really appreciate the hard work that goes into them.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

While shooting means.....you still have targets remaining. Once you have shot all of your targets you are no longer shooting. Until then, you are still shooting. The rule doesn't say shooting that target.

Enforce the rules or get rid of them.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

STRICNINE said:


> Here's some that have been brought up, for the sake of everyone being on the same page and a few I see that are not followed regularly. lol
> 
> -After you set your sights and draw your bow, you cannot reset your sights after a letdown. Penalty: A score of zero
> for that target.
> ...


The part in red came up a few weeks ago, and I was told I don't know the rules. If you are keeping score you only make arrow calls is the "scorers" can't agree on the score.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Yeah, I wanted folks to see some of these as when we are competing you always hear " I heard that if.....". It's much easier if we all actually read the rules, learn them and abide by them.

The two that stand out to me the most is folks using binos to make arrow calls (can't do it).....and people advancing to the next stake before the group in front of them has moved (This can often lead to the range official placing blame on the incorrect group for a bunch up or delay which results in your group being clocked the rest of the tourney).

Best thing to do is keep a copy of the most recent set of rules provided by the ASA in your quiver or seat and if there is any question you can reference them.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

I take it to mean on THAT target. You can't talk until that target has been shot.

Here's another. You shoot and hang the 12 line on the bottom. Next guy shoots and rides your arrow in just above you shaft and takes the line away. You can't see your arrow touching the line but you know if his arrow wasn't there you would be touching. Rules say you must be touching line of the higher score to attain it. 
if you call it out- then how is the 1st arrow different on a target that is shot up and there is a hole there. Both would be judgment calls.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I do think it is funny that some rules are ignored and treated as if they don't matter and then there are rules that god himself made and are enforced. I watched a pro shooter draw back this weekend and then let down and change his sights and nobody cared, I also watched a amateur shooter have to take a zero because he bumped his trigger and his arrow shot about 4 feet.

To me there are a bunch of rules that are just grandfathered into the rule book that nobody really cares about or follows and there are a few that people are picky about. To me more of the rules need to be taken care of by the group just like line calling. If you start to draw and only get back half way and the release fires and the group sees this happen why couldn't you be allowed one of these per tournament where it is voted on by the group. Secondly if you call letdown and it fires during the letdown this would also be something that is voted on by the group one time per tournament. 

The rules of talking yardage after the shot between the group members is just part of shooting 3d and it is fine because the shot is over but if you walk over and tell somebody on another stake that hasn't shot the target yet that is a different thing and unsportsman like conduct. I would love to sit on the committee as a amateur shooter and discuss rules sometime as a fresh look at them, sometimes it is the same people sitting on the same committee that keep us from moving on to a better set of rules.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

More out in the open...maybe the rule needs more refined;

"Exchanging* target information *with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is also strictly prohibited."

reylamb gave "targets remaining." Well, you have targets remaining after the first day, 20 the first and 20 second, so after the event you may discuss as you wish? And no discussion of target information period, not just yards....Blemishes, color or damage to look for or outside objects to align to the point zone (s).

For the day, close target lanes, discussing the target shot could be/might be/may be over heard by the grouping next to shoot the target.....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The best shooter is going to win and discussing yardage after the shot isn't going to chang much, this year in florida when I got to the end of the range we had a bear and a coyote that were exactly the same distance and right next to each other. the stakes were straight across from each other also, I stepped up and smoked the 12 ring with a awesome shot and so when it was time to shoot the coyote I used the same number and I got a 8. I had misjudged the bear by 3 yards to short and gotten lucky and smoked the 12 so when I used the same number on the coyote I made a perfect shot and hit low like I should have. Again the best shooter won that day and it wasn't me.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

LOL!! Have found out many times that my 12 was actually a bad shot gone lucky because of being off on my yardage. Bad feeling!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> One reason I addressed this was a new archer to 3d told me it happened to him. I had told him to know the rules before shooting a larger tournament. He also mentioned the glassing rule as well being broken many times as well. Sometimes trying to help someone new to the sport I dont know what to say when things like this are asked. RSW your correct. I feel make the rules and abide by them.
> DB


DB...the TIME LIMIT is violated constantly and if you watch the videos and check the time, you can clearly see in some cases, it is way over the one minute allowed...and upwards of one minute 10 to one minute 20 seconds...and the rule is RARELY enforced....for the Pros. In addition, the glassing the target after the shot is in the target is taking time from your competitor. HIS/HER time starts once your arrow is in the target...so get the heck off the stake...glassing it now won't do any good.
Those rules need to be enforced...regardless of whether Joe or Pro! Same with touching arrows in the animals before they are scored and tallied on the scorecards....You do NOT remove some of the arrows from the target and then score the remaining arrows! You do NOT touch those arrows to help "see" if they're in or out. It is on video....Oh, OH....
You all can go out and find those videos for yourselves; I don't have to and won't lead you by the hand. Lobbying to get your score changed needs to be curtailed, too. The rules are clear about how a group decides the score; once done that is the end of it...there is "no crying in archery."
field14 (Tom D.)


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## atennishu (Sep 24, 2010)

I was kind of surprised at how many people really didnt know the rules at all, I will have to admit the first ASA local tournament I shot, I didnt know the rules either, but took the time to read them before the next shoot, It was interesting to me as we had one guy in the group admonish another regarding one rule, while he himself was guilty of breaking another rule, wonder how many would actually be able to pass a quiz on rules


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bo Bob said:


> I take it to mean on THAT target. You can't talk until that target has been shot.
> 
> Here's another. You shoot and hang the 12 line on the bottom. Next guy shoots and rides your arrow in just above you shaft and takes the line away. You can't see your arrow touching the line but you know if his arrow wasn't there you would be touching. Rules say you must be touching line of the higher score to attain it.
> if you call it out- then how is the 1st arrow different on a target that is shot up and there is a hole there. Both would be judgment calls.


The arrow is scored as it NOW lies in the target...it matters not where it "used to lie"...This is not a judgement call at that point. This, "well it nicked the line on the way in" doesn't mean squat...it is NOT there now and again, the arrow is scored as it NOW lies in the target, period.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

We could do it like elementary school I guess. No talking what so ever after the command to "shoot 'em up" is given. The only times you are allowed to talk during the actual shooting times, are if you call "upper" or "break down". Any other occurrence of spoken words results in a 0 for the target you were on, and you must go put your nose in a circle on a "time out tree" for a 5 minute penalty. If your group advances to the next target before your 5 minute penalty is up, you are forced to take a 0 for that target as well. Then we could all walk single file to the range official when the round is through and turn our score cards in. If anybody gets out of the line or talks in the line, they will be given a N/S for the round. 

Yeah that would be real fun to go to.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I try to consider the spirit of the law and the letter of the law in forming my opinion on these things. I believe the spirit of the law is simply to prevent collaboration. 

I dont see anything I believe to be collaboration. These guys are competitors and in fact, I tend to see these discussions more as good sportsmanship. 

Since the let down/glass again thing was brought up, what's the spirit of the law? IMO, it is to prevent ranging or gapping. If I don't suspect this is being done, getting another look doesn't bother me in the least. 

Since the time limit was brought up, what's the spirit of the law? IMO, it is to keep the tournament flowing. If the shooter isn't a problem, what do I care if he takes 10-20 seconds extra?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I try to consider the spirit of the law and the letter of the law in forming my opinion on these things. I believe the spirit of the law is simply to prevent collaboration.
> 
> I dont see anything I believe to be collaboration. These guys are competitors and in fact, I tend to see these discussions more as good sportsmanship.
> 
> ...


Because the rule is explicit...ONE MINUTE...and your minute starts when the other person's arrow hits the target...ONE MINUTE is just that, ONE MINUTE, period. You ain't gonna get an extra 10 seconds at ANY target event, period. In some World Cup competitions...you have 20 seconds for that ONE shot...and it doesn't even mean 21 seconds...so YES! It does matter. Give 'em 10 seconds extra and that becomes 20 seconds, then 330 seconds. Nope, cannot agree with violations of the time limit and the "spirit of the rule." Get the shot off withing 60 seconds or take your ZERO for non-compliance.

Spirit of the rule? Yes to keep the tournament moving...but there have been cases where people have been busted for violating the one minute rule...only to find out that the PROS were violating it by a wider margin. When video was brought to the attention of the tournament committee with TIME STAMPED information on the video...those persons that were DQ'd for violating the TIME LIMIT...were reinstated, but nothing was done to the 'pros' that were on video as grossly violating the one minute time limit. 

I do NOT agree with violations of the rules with "what difference does it make?" If the rule is there...either enforce it to the letter...or get rid of it as excess baggage. So...now, we take out the TIME LIMIT..then what will be done WHEN people are taking 2, 3, 4 minutes to shoot ONE shot? Give 'em and inch, and they'll take a mile...Joe or PRO...give 'em an inch, and theyll take a mile (at least some of them, and one is too many.
Let's get rid of the ONE MINUTE time limit rule...and watch the chaos that happens when the 3-1 1/2 hours for only 20 shots doubles or triples!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Do you understand the difference in a "target event" and a 3d shoot? For environmental reasons, this doesn't work like those do. If the guys isn't slowing down the tournament, I don't care if he takes 10 minutes. 

Just this weekend, we intentionally broke this rule because all we would be doing is hurrying up to wait longer.... range designs cause bottlenecks. It happens all the time. If you actually shot 3d, rather than just griped about it, your perspective might be different.

heaven forbid we play these games with a reasonable man approach.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

This. /\


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## Trykon Mike (Aug 25, 2007)

I agree with this 100%


tmorelli said:


> I try to consider the spirit of the law and the letter of the law in forming my opinion on these things. I believe the spirit of the law is simply to prevent collaboration.
> 
> I dont see anything I believe to be collaboration. These guys are competitors and in fact, I tend to see these discussions more as good sportsmanship.
> 
> ...


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Do you understand the difference in a "target event" and a 3d shoot? For environmental reasons, this doesn't work like those do. If the guys isn't slowing down the tournament, I don't care if he takes 10 minutes. If you actually shot 3d, rather than just griped about it, your perspective might be different.


BAM!! That one dead centered the 12 ring. LOL


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> heaven forbid we play these games with a reasonable man approach.


Common sense is lost on some I have discovered. I haven't shot "national" events, but when I attend shoots it's to compete within myself and enjoy the company of others. If they want to take extra time at the stake and it's not disturbing other shoots/groups go ahead!


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

field14 said:


> The arrow is scored as it NOW lies in the target...it matters not where it "used to lie"...This is not a judgement call at that point. This, "well it nicked the line on the way in" doesn't mean squat...it is NOT there now and again, the arrow is scored as it NOW lies in the target, period.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Yea I get that you can't score it how it "was". My question is if the 12 ring in no longer evident because to the arrow on top, would you not have to treat this as a target that is missing a section (like the deal with the pros this past shoot). Would you not say, :"if the line was there he would or would not be touching it"?


If I'm hanging the 12 and the guys arrow above me is a 1/4 inch up and you can clearly see I'm touching the line, I get a 12.
If I'm hanging the 12 (same spot as scenario 1) and the guys arrow rides mine in and you can't clearly seeing the 12 line but do determine that if his arrow was not there I would be touching the line, I get an 8?

If you are clearly pushed out of the 12 I have no problem with that.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Love how some just think rules should be allowed to be broken if you think it OK! Thats the problem most the time. 



DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Do you understand the difference in a "target event" and a 3d shoot? For environmental reasons, this doesn't work like those do. If the guys isn't slowing down the tournament, I don't care if he takes 10 minutes.
> 
> Just this weekend, we intentionally broke this rule because all we would be doing is hurrying up to wait longer.... range designs cause bottlenecks. It happens all the time. If you actually shot 3d, rather than just griped about it, your perspective might be different.
> 
> heaven forbid we play these games with a reasonable man approach.


Reasonable is your idea of reasonable. May mean other things to others. Do you want rules enforced or not?
DB

Example

Your in a shoot down in windy conditions and you got one minute time limit. You be reasonable see no reason to not allow extra ten seconds. What it hurt or 20 seconds.

Shooter number two stands by the one minute rule and rush's his shot to make the one minute. 

Tony was just being reasonable due to very windy conditions.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

I can say every ASA I have shot yardage has been talked about on the way to pull arrows or when pulling arrows. There is always someone that has an aww chit shot and will be like what did you shoot that far. As long as it isn't loud to where another group can hear, it doesn't bother me.

The calling of arrows is another story usually at ASA it isn't to big of a deal with the targets, but local shoots is another story. Always holes and you have to envision the circle sometimes. Which it can get to be a big pain in the butt.....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Love how some just think rules should be allowed to be broken if you think it OK! Thats the problem most the time.
> 
> 
> 
> DB


I hope you know me well enough that you know that isn't what I'm saying.

Basically, I'm saying that we should choose our battles wisely. A lot of these issues are "zero-sum".... if there is no harm done by the infraction, we are really distracting ourselves from our own game....and the issues that could better the game as a whole.

The last thing our little game needs is a bunch of guys nitpicking each other over technicalities that don't affect the outcome of the tournament or the quality/integrity of the product. 

I don't go to tournaments to worry about how other guys play it. I go to perform to the best of my ability...and I know that it takes 100% of my focus being applied to what I'm doing... not what other people are doing.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Reasonable is your idea of reasonable. May mean other things to others. Do you want rules enforced or not?
> DB


I think I just answered this. I want rules enforced reasonably. I'm willing to trust it to that subjectivity.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I think I just answered this. I want rules enforced reasonably. I'm willing to trust it to that subjectivity.


I agree 100% with this.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Example
> 
> Your in a shoot down in windy conditions and you got one minute time limit. You be reasonable see no reason to not allow extra ten seconds. What it hurt or 20 seconds.
> 
> ...


The shoot down is quite obviously a more controlled circumstance like the "target events" that Field14 was comparing it too. Everyone is standing in the same conditions....everyone's clock started at the same time. An infraction here does (or very well could) affect the outcome.

This same infraction in the first 40 targets is not the same. Everyone on the range doesn't step to the stake at the same moment...their clock doesn't start at the same time. Their conditions vary greatly from stake to stake. It may be windy at the same moment on stake 11 and not on stake 9.... but the guy or group who just shot stake 11 had no wind.......

See where a little subjectivity...and reasonability goes a long way towards making the game MORE FAIR and more enjoyable for everyone......


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

rsw said:


> I will sound like a stick in the mud here, but this casual, cavalier, informal approach to our sport is a part of why profesional archery will never go anywhere. It is absolutely the only pro sport that doesn't adhere precisely to the rules of the game and, in fact, gives the big finger to the rules. Personally, I have many times heard the yardage to my next target more than a few times.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I think many of these rules were designed to keep these types of things in moderation. If it is done casually and occasionally, fine, but if it's abused, then enforcement needs to take place.

I see many rules broken, but not for ill pursuit or to cheat. When it becomes a matter of gaining an advantage or costing others points, then it needs to be addressed.

Glassing the target at the stake
Taking longer than 1 minute
Cell phones used to take pictures of the target (and selfies) on the range
Discussing yardage after all shots are taken

All of these rules have been put in place because someone took advantage of them to gain an edge or to cheat. That is when they should be enforced IMO.

For example, There have been thousands of arrow calls that have ben argued and discussed at the target, many times people not agreeing but going on. Now that one has happened that cost a person a spot in the shootoff or he felt it was a collaboration against him by rivals sponsored by the same company, a new rule has been made for the Pros. that is how these rules came in to effect. It doesn't mean they should be strictly adhered to at all times.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Time limits.....Club and national events are different. Shot Metro in 2010. 5 in our group, 2 + 4 = 6 minutes X 20 targets = 2hours. Figure time to target, scoring, timing back, time to next station. Space between targets was that safety was a concern. When everyone was done shooting you then approached the target... Rules say 3 hours 30 minutes.... we took 4 hours each day to finish off 20 targets. If at a club event we knock off 40 targets in something of 3 hours and walk three times farther. If shooting 30 targets, then something over 2 hours... All in all, one mile walk to range and 4 hours to shoot 20 targets and one mile walk back...I was really disappointed. Someone said we were lucky in 2010 as it wasn't as hot, only around 95 degrees.... 
Unless some condition comes up I doubt I'll ever shoot another national....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> The shoot down is quite obviously a more controlled circumstance like the "target events" that Field14 was comparing it too. Everyone is standing in the same conditions....everyone's clock started at the same time. An infraction here does (or very well could) affect the outcome.
> 
> This same infraction in the first 40 targets is not the same. Everyone on the range doesn't step to the stake at the same moment...their clock doesn't start at the same time. Their conditions vary greatly from stake to stake. It may be windy at the same moment on stake 11 and not on stake 9.... but the guy or group who just shot stake 11 had no wind.......
> 
> See where a little subjectivity...and reasonability goes a long way towards making the game MORE FAIR and more enjoyable for everyone......


So in your opinion if your group decides to be subjectivity on the rules its OK! The other groups if they decide to abide by the written rules are not on the same level playing field. I don't see how on a pro am level you can make the subjectivity ruling up as we go. I realize this has happened more than once and once others realized the rules were being bent it didnt go well for those who didnt bend the rules.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I think I just answered this. I want rules enforced reasonably. I'm willing to trust it to that subjectivity.


Reasonable and subjectivity is your opinion of the rules! One of these days when rules arent enforced and you lose a major event because of subjectivity ruling you might see it different.
DB


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

DB, being from up North here, I always enjoyed your picture threads while waiting for the snow to go away. Did anyone ever try to have you DQed for having your camera on a range? And did you ever use it to your advantage? Sort of the point some are trying to make here. No harm done. For allthose that think there should be no subjectivity in the rules; next time you are driving down the road and realize you are 3 mph over the speed limit, please look for the next police barracks and turn yourself in!


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## Tfox1 (Dec 11, 2008)

Don't ever trust any numbers someone tells you at a shoot for money, be it before or after the shot. 

That is one of the easiest way to mess with your competition. 

Best to just stay away from it.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

My experience is that the letter of the law is broken all the time. Yardages are discussed after the shot at all shoots I've been to, groups move into your shooting area and give you the evil eye if you haven't encroached on the next group yet, cell phones are used, range finders are carried in stools, groups don't move up towards the stake after shooting, too much time is taken by most, covers are not used in sight tapes, our pets heads are falling off, etc. etc. 

Does it affect the game or give anyone an advantage, nope. I'm not gonna be the guy who calls someone out on a rule that doesn't affect anyone or give advantage to anyone. I'm gonna do my best to keep the rules as they were written, I'm one of the few who reads the rules it seems.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

hrtlnd164 said:


> DB, being from up North here, I always enjoyed your picture threads while waiting for the snow to go away. Did anyone ever try to have you DQed for having your camera on a range? And did you ever use it to your advantage? Sort of the point some are trying to make here. No harm done. For allthose that think there should be no subjectivity in the rules; next time you are driving down the road and realize you are 3 mph over the speed limit, please look for the next police barracks and turn yourself in!


If you ever notice I dont take it on the range at a pro am. Pro ams are a compititive game and with rules. Ask me have I ever been DQ from an event. YES I have and broke a rule and it was enforced, I understood why! Have I ever been warned from an official on a range, yes I have and did speed up. Just like all sporting events play the rules.
Archery should be no different. IMO
DB


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

I will say rules are rules and should be followed but understand why some aren't. The one minute rule. I'm not going to stand behind everyone in my group and time them. Now a group in front of my is horribly slow and holding up the whole event is a different story. Taking an extra 10 seconds to wait for a gust to die isn't going to hurt nothing. I do think the discussion of yardage should be cleared up. It is unfair advantage between doing and not. Now I believe it should just be allowed as long as it stays in the group and after all in group have shot.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

So let's play this scenario out:

You're approaching stake 6 and the group you've been following all day is returning from pulling arrows. One shooter is obviously not happy with the result and talking with the group about their numbers. You can't hear the numbers but what they are doing is obvious. What do you do?

While I'm typing, let's tackle another. 

You're on the 18th target of the day. The sun is in your eyes from the stake. The shooter steps to the stake, runs his routine, draws, aims, let's down. He asks for an umbrella. A member of the group grabs one and gets situated. The minute is up. You win the tournament if he is penalized....or maybe even if he's just a little rushed or rattled by the mention of a warning or running out of time. What do you do?

I know what I do in each situation. In my opinion, making an issue of it and enforcing the rule literally is Busch league.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

After reading the rules I am not sure talking after the shot counts as breaking rules .i have shot asa for 27 years now.openc. Open b ,openA senior pro,and at every shoot every, group after the shot some one will ask what you shoot it for or what the number on that target .lets see some one this week end give some one zero after the shot on the way to the target,I think some on here need a life


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> So let's play this scenario out:
> 
> You're approaching stake 6 and the group you've been following all day is returning from pulling arrows. One shooter is obviously not happy with the result and talking with the group about their numbers. You can't hear the numbers but what they are doing is obvious. What do you do?
> 
> ...


Range official makes the call for you and rules are enforced. You win and rules were followed. 
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Range official makes the call for you and rules are enforced. You win and rules were followed.
> DB


I've never once seen a range official act independently. They respond to complaints.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> So let's play this scenario out:
> 
> You're approaching stake 6 and the group you've been following all day is returning from pulling arrows. One shooter is obviously not happy with the result and talking with the group about their numbers. You can't hear the numbers but what they are doing is obvious. What do you do?
> 
> ...


Busch league is my opinion also. Next month, the same scenario may be backward and would you want someone to call you out at 62 seconds. 

On the local level from all my time shooting, I have noticed that the people who are always hollering about every rule and know all the by laws of every club, is the guy who cant hit a bull in the butt. Just my opinion, but I can spot them a mile away. When you pull into the parking lot its the guy who immediately starts telling you whos done what wrong in the club meetings. I was always like who gives a crap take my money and let me shoot a few holes in your targets and stick them by laws where the sun dont shine. 

Same guy is also the guy who complains that nobody is joining the club and can never figure out hes the reason why. A new member is always a good fellow until he can shoot better than "that guy" the you automatically become one of the cheaters that hes always telling you about when he has you cornered and the people hes talking about is not around. 

I hate "That Guy" and for that reason I will never be a member of a archery club ever again in my life. Ill pay to shoot their targets and they can fuss and growl amoungst themselves.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I've never once seen a range official act independently. They respond to complaints.


Yeah you'd get a warning that you've been put on the clock. Enforcing the clock rule can't work with the current system, one guy has a problem or a call takes too long and the whole range is held up. The only time I've seen someone clocked is when there is an open lane between groups.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shootstraight said:


> Yeah you'd get a warning that you've been put on the clock. Enforcing the clock rule can't work with the current system, one guy has a problem or a call takes too long and the whole range is held up. The only time I've seen someone clocked is when there is an open lane between groups.


Agreed.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And the complaint comes from who, within the group or the group following? Time? Some step to the stake with all figured out and don't mess around getting off the shot. So the majority of the time the group moves within the time limit of the group?

Seems darned few time complaints are heard about time, so we're all letting off steam about nothing?

The women and the video field14 noted, I've heard that one before. A rare case.

Some one noted; "informal approach to our sport is a part of why profesional archery will never go anywhere." This is a bit off base. Who's watching to say archery doesn't deserve national recognition? Heck, I never knew about golf or watched it on TV until Bing Crosby got his name slapped a golf match. Palmolive (sp) was the next golf thing going. Can't remember any golf match called the PGA until way later in life...

And before Professional archery becomes big the matches will need cut to one day....Stock cars, baseball, football, basketball and done in a one in a few hours.... Most tennis matches are the same and the ones like Wimbledon are elimination matches getting to the Championship matches (there is more than the individual Championship). Golf matches are one day with exceptions of the big ones.... Mmm? 18 holes...20 targets... 20 targets for all regular nationals and then, like golf or tennis, a major national where two days would probably work...

Vegas rounds. WAF runs them off 30 shots per day. One day could work. Pros, bring your "A" game to the line for every shot.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Some one can have 30 seconds of mine on each target


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

JimmyP said:


> Some one can have 30 seconds of mine on each target


True, we could come up with something like the phone companies, roll over minutes.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

If the nit-pickers had their way there would have to be a clock on every target with a range official on every other target. 

I love spot shooting indoors but the some of the "rules guys" are ridiculous. I asked a range official at nationals a question and his response was "because we said so that's why". Shortly thereafter another "rules guy" started walking by the backstops tearing new, not yet shot targets down and throwing them on the floor. Absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly childish. We don't need that kind of attitude in the ASA or any where else in 3D. The people that like the "rules are rules" paradigm should stick to being scout leaders and spottie officials!

BTW, there have been a multitude of stupid, ignorant and out right immoral "rules" (laws) since the beginning of time. Historically, "rules are rules" folks have done some really bad things to other human beings. Obviously I'm not one to follow another blindly...........................


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## mjharp46 (May 7, 2012)

Rules are Rules. People are seeing rules being broken, but have no authority to enforce the following of the rule. Rules or laws are only as effective as you are able to enforce them. If you tell on someone for breaking a rule you are telling on them like, preschoolers. Would you walk up to a police officer and tell on someone for not wearing a seatbelt or for going 3mph over the speed limit as has already been mentioned? If not, why?? you could help save someone's life. We are talking about points not life or death. You could strike up conversation with someone to help educate them on rules if indeed you know them. Someone else breaking a rule has no effect on how you shoot individually, can it affect your outcome in comparative score, yes. So when someone gets to repeatedly break a rule after being addressed by other shooters it seems unfair, or they get the rap of a cheater, usually because they beat someone and that someone felt they "cheated". From my experience it basically comes down to the aggregate decisions of the groups you shoot with. Each target, each arrow is different and is what makes the interpretation very difficult in many cases. You don't like being called out then don't make it questionable, with other arrows in the target that can be difficult. You might make a perfect shot for if someone's arrow was not in the way. It's all part of the game. Talking yardage after the shot most likely comes from guys that shoot IBO also, where it states you can discuss yardage after arrows are scored within your group. If you know the rules and choose to break them, you can not be surprised when you are dealt consequences. Everyone that feels they can do something to their advantage and get away with it is going to, until they are called on it. And saying everyone else is doing it is not a valid argument either.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In oklahoma regions this weekend I saw a guy that plinked a arrow about 5 feet and was forced to take a zero on the hardest 3d course I have shot in years, he was just a amateur shooter and he was upset and unfortunately the thing that happened to him resulted in a zero. 

That weekend I watched pro shooters let down and then change their sights, we had groups walking up to our stake and getting in our way all freaking weekend, we had people glassing after shooting we had groups going both directions on the courses so you would be on the last arrow when they walked up and shot their first arrow and now you had to wait basically twice as long to go score your arrows.

The rules need to be clean up and updated, hopefully the organizers will step up and let some new blood sit in on the meetings and make our experience on the courses even better than they already are. I absolutely love the national shoots and the full three day shooting experience, once you accept that you are going to be on the course for at least 4 hours and then you get to go and have a big steak dinner life is good.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I think it is funny that this year every shoot is being zig zagged, I was just talking to d.short last night about these rules threads that have popped up lately and the zig zag thing is funny to me because it actually makes it easier to scout a course than before. Before when going straight around the worst two shots were when you started off a tournament and then jumped across the road to the other side because these were the only two targets that you hadn't been up to be able to look left or right. Now it just happens instantly because on the first target once you walk up to it you can see the two next to it and on the second target of the day you walk to the other side of the course and get to see the two on each side of it. zig zag has done nothing but cause us to clutter the transition from target to target especially when the zig zag is a weird one.

I found out the first year of asa that trying to look at the next target does nothing but make the day stressful, you are in a constant state of worrying and it doesn't help your ranging if you suck. The fact is you have to learn to range and step up and make a good decision.

My favorite one from last year was over flow from my open a class onto the semi pro class so that the two courses weren't changed from one day to the next, this allows buddies to help each other in the motel room over night.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Speaking of rules or changes that could make a cool change, I had this idea a while back and I think it could really be something cool.

What if you weren't allowed to step up to a target at all, your group waited for the next target to clear out and then you could move up and sit your stool down on the road. 

The first shooter when ready could take his stool up to the stake and then range and make his shot, when he backs off then the next shooter approaches the stake and makes the shot, and so on until all shots are taken. 

If you need a umbrella you can totally call for one when you are up there and if you already know one will probably be need have it ready.

Absolutely no shooter is allowed to approach a stake until it is his turn.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This little change I just listed above would be easy to do and would only require the ranges to be set up so that the stake is at least 5 ft off the road to you actually had to approach the stake, right now coming up to a new target is a many step ritual because as soon as you come to a new target you all go up to the target and spend up to 4 minutes all ranging and walking around left to right as a group. Then when everyone is done with their initial ranging the stake clears out and then the first shooter steps up and basically ranges again with his bow in hand for another couple minutes and takes the shot and each shooter after does the same. 


This current process makes getting to the next stake and doing the whole group ranging thing very important so many groups approach your stake early to get in extra time looking and walking around ranging. If you weren't allowed up to the stake until it was your shot we could eliminate the 4 minute per target group ranging. Secondly it would clean up the need to get to the next stake in a hurry because now the first shooter of that target wouldn't want to get there so quickly because he can't range until he approaches for the shot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Here you go, Padgett

http://www.asaarchery.com/IP/vb4/showthread.php?158-Shooting-Staggering-Stake-Methods


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## silhouette13 (Feb 26, 2007)

i believe that is the way IBO rules are worded.



Daniel Boone said:


> It is interesting! I have been told there is another rule that says no discussions until arrows have been scored. It obvious that it happens alot and I for one would like to know is it OK or not. I have always been under the understanding there is no discussion of yardages.
> DB


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## rodney c. (Mar 20, 2010)

Stillwater was my first Pro/am shoot and I loved it. Having said that the targets on the A and B range were stacked in there so close to the next one the we were all working to stay out of the way of the group on the next . So if the groups on stake 10 and 11 are having to wait on one another to pull arrows due to the targets being so close that its not safe for one group to score arrows due to the other still shooting, what would we accomplish by clocking each shooter. 

I'm not complaining about the range design as this is my first pro/am and for all I know they may all be configured in this manner.

There is a fine line between sportsmanship and " sorry bro those are the rules". Any archery organization that goes down the letter of the rule enforcement path will likely not last long.

Before we go down the road of well, in NASCAR or in Field or what ever, please remember we ain't in those sports. This is 3D archery.

RC


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

So where does the subjectivity end?

Suppose a group steps up to their target. The leadoff shooter looks down, judges the target, and shoots their arrow.....only to find out they shot the wrong target. Is it OK if the group decides the leadoff shooter should shoot another arrow into the correct target? Subjective and all.....should that be OK?

Can't happen? It has happened.

Either the rules should all be followed or throw them out. Where do we draw the line? Is it ok to speed just a little, I mean 291 really doesn't do much for a shooter that 290 doesn't do....so just a little over the line is OK?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

reylamb said:


> So where does the subjectivity end?
> 
> Suppose a group steps up to their target. The leadoff shooter looks down, judges the target, and shoots their arrow.....only to find out they shot the wrong target. Is it OK if the group decides the leadoff shooter should shoot another arrow into the correct target? Subjective and all.....should that be OK?
> 
> ...


I think one has to play by the written rules and guidelines. Over the years we have seen just the example Relamb describing. Honest mistake but the rules state how and what is suppose to happen when it happens. I was DQ for one feet per second to much one time on chrono, went right down to another chrono and it showed me legal. I didnt like the DQ but it how the rules are written. 
DB


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

reylamb said:


> So where does the subjectivity end?
> 
> Suppose a group steps up to their target. The leadoff shooter looks down, judges the target, and shoots their arrow.....only to find out they shot the wrong target. Is it OK if the group decides the leadoff shooter should shoot another arrow into the correct target? Subjective and all.....should that be OK?
> Can't happen? It has happened.
> Either the rules should all be followed or throw them out. Where do we draw the line? Is it ok to speed just a little, I mean 291 really doesn't do much for a shooter that 290 doesn't do....so just a little over the line is OK?


Rules and to be followed and not saying "bending" is bad... What takes place within the group, well, takes place in the group. If somebody wants to complain within the group then the rules apply. As for shooting the wrong target, that's kind of hard to over look.

Last year, the new speed limit was discussed. It was stated a rounding down and up. Like 280 plus 3% is 288.4, but 288 is final. 290 plus 3% is 298.7 , but 299 is final. I was at one national and never saw a chronograph... I understood the top few got checked...

I posted of the next in the ASA forums and it got left hanging. 2011 State Championship. My bow was turning 284, maybe 285 fps. Wrong chronograph and I would have been over. All are checked before going out and way before hitting the range (so?). 30" stabilizer on the bow I step up to the chronograph and the end of my stab back a good foot or more. I ask how the Checker wants me and says "right there is fine." I shot and 282 or 283 read out. No doubt in my mind my rig would have really been pushing the speed limit, maybe breaking the speed limit, if I had been checked as per how a bow is to be checked, about 4 feet closer. The thing is, everyone was being the checked the same, any distance back.... I guess I could have noted such to the Officials or club, but you dang well better believe I would have called for everyone to checked a second time....So the rule was bent/broken to begin with and really no unfairness....

Me, I'm not going to complain for discussing the target after it's been shot and the rule is not clear of; "that target, that day or the for the event. And then the Rules Committee takes over. They have the final word. Innocent, dropped, Guilty, DQed. Second time you're out for the remaining of the year... Discussing the target outside of the group I consider a no-no..... And any one who has followed what I went through at the State...knows I've had some run-ins with rules really busted.....


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> Rules and to be followed and not saying "bending" is bad... What takes place within the group, well, takes place in the group. If somebody wants to complain within the group then the rules apply. As for shooting the wrong target, that's kind of hard to over look.
> 
> Last year, the new speed limit was discussed. It was stated a rounding down and up. Like 280 plus 3% is 288.4, but 288 is final. 290 plus 3% is 298.7 , but 299 is final. I was at one national and never saw a chronograph... I understood the top few got checked...
> 
> ...


I actually told Mike last year, just put a chrony between targets 10 and 11 and 20 and 1 on the next adjoining range, and have every single shooter shoot through it as they made the turn. At most venues 1 Chronograph could be used for 2 ranges at the same time, and not be a major holdup for time...then everyone gets checked. Heck, I think it was Florida last year where K45 actually had 21 groups on the range, so you actually went to an empty waiting area after target 20 and waited...perfect place to check everyone's speed.

I saw one in Florida and somewhere else last year, and I have been checked before.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You know, it's really something about rules and how some one or some club handles them. I took in a M.A.C. several years back and at the entrance of each range they had some one checking for range finders and binoculars. Back then 8X was still the max....

Again, at a Sports Show, PSE truck and Sports Store thing. They had a line 3D going and I got checked for my binoculars having a range finder built in or marks on the barrel dial. I didn't, but just pointing the difference individuals and clubs can be....

State ASA Qualifiers...I can't remember Chronograph checks required. Championships, yes....


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

So do all you "rules are rules" guys send $50 to local treasured every time you look down and see yourself going 1 mph over the speed limit even when a police officer is no where in sight? I seriously doubt it! Is going 1 mph over the speed limit the same as going 30 mph over? No. Do you hard core "rules are rules" guys time yourself on the stake and if you go over by 1 second you give yourself a zero? I seriously doubt it! 

Many of the hardcore "rules are rules" guys only stand by the "rules are rules" IF they get caught. Well that's BS! Now not only have you broke a "rule" you have become a hypocrite. 

I know for a fact a LOT of rules including laws are total BS! Just because there is an organizational "rule" (or public law) it does NOT in any way shape or form make it actually legitimate nor morally right.

A kid is "caught" with a single Tylenol tablet at school and is suspended for 3 days.... That is simply wrong no matter how hard one hollers "that's the rule"!

"Whites Only"!?.......Taxation without representation!?!?!?!..... Creating a superior race?!?!?...... I know these are extreme examples but they are examples of "rules" that MANY people believed in and followed.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I am in Tony's camp on this issue, but I hold to my thesis that failing to adhere strictly to the rules in archery is just another reason why archery is a recreation and golf is a highly lucrative profession. As archers, we are totally different in our outlook than professional golfers who are playing every single shot for thousands of dollars or the local golfer playing for a few dollars. I can't explain that, but it is so. I have won international titles in both sports and played casually by the rules in archery and strictly by the rules of golf. It just works that way.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

"Exchanging target information with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is also strictly prohibited."

The number of different interpretations of that rule here on AT is pretty strong evidence that ASA competition committee needs to clarify this rule.

I would also submit that professional sports such as golf, auto racing, baseball, etc. also have rules that are routinely ignored due to the fact that they are more or less unenforceable. I would admit that the competitors in some professional sports are more likely to report the violations made by other competitors.

Any rule should have some rationale to it, otherwise it will be ignored or circumvented by the competitors.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rsw said:


> I am in Tony's camp on this issue, but I hold to my thesis that failing to adhere strictly to the rules in archery is just another reason why archery is a recreation and golf is a highly lucrative profession. As archers, we are totally different in our outlook than professional golfers who are playing every single shot for thousands of dollars or the local golfer playing for a few dollars. I can't explain that, but it is so. I have won international titles in both sports and played casually by the rules in archery and strictly by the rules of golf. It just works that way.


It hard for me to understand! We got rules but it Ok to ignore them if your group says it OK.
DB


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

carlosii said:


> "Exchanging target information with shooters in your group, spectators, or other groups while shooting is also strictly prohibited."
> 
> The number of different interpretations of that rule here on AT is pretty strong evidence that ASA competition committee needs to clarify this rule.
> 
> ...


Name one rule in Professional Golf, baseball, auto racing, or any other professionally organized sport that is ignored.

Heck, Craig Stadler was penalized years ago for putting a towel down on wet ground to make a swing, just so he didn't get his pants dirty.

I don't see any other professional sports that ignore any of their rules.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

reylamb said:


> Name one rule in Professional Golf, baseball, auto racing, or any other professionally organized sport that is ignored.
> 
> Heck, Craig Stadler was penalized years ago for putting a towel down on wet ground to make a swing, just so he didn't get his pants dirty.
> 
> I don't see any other professional sports that ignore any of their rules.


Okay...you got me...at least on golf (maybe). but not being allowed to put your towel down on the wet ground is a rule, the rationale of which totally escapes me. what's that all about?


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## eholguin13 (Nov 3, 2006)

I believe that the rules should be looked at and modified as needed to keep up with how the game is currently being played. They (rules) should keep the fun in the game and keep it fair for all following the rules. 99% of us posting here know the game well enough to know when a violation should be acted on and when an outdated rule should be looked over. That is why we flex, bend, or ignore some rules cheaters are easy to see and should be punished to keep the field level for all participants. So maybe its not us that need to be fixed but the rules themselves that should be modified. Rules should not make us petty, or have to hold a stop watch on someone. It has been proven many times in the recent years that cheaters will cheat regardless of rules or how they get enforced. But they will be caught eventually.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

carlosii said:


> Okay...you got me...at least on golf (maybe). but not being allowed to put your towel down on the wet ground is a rule, the rationale of which totally escapes me. what's that all about?


Improving the lie. Sketchy, but that was the interpretation.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Therein lies the point. A rule that has existed for years and years with no apparent rationale, yet it is a rule which was unknowingly violated and the violator was punished for doing so. That is precisely the difference between a professional sport and a recreation like archery. Golfers virtually always report their own violations if they recognize that they did so. Do you ever expect to see an archer do likewise? Not likely, and in fact many archers might knowingly violate a rule if they think they can get away with it. This is not to say that a golfer has never been found to have cheated, but those circumstances are extremely rare. I am not talking about the local golfers, but the very serious competitive or professional player.

I reported a one stroke penalty on myself in a world amateur golf tournament a few years ago when while trying to remove a stick against my ball, I caused my ball to move. The ball movement (perhaps 1/8") had no impact whatsoever on the upcoming shot. It happened when I was in the edge of the woods and none of the rest of my foursome could have seen it - it is simply the culture, tradition, and personal ethic that causes golfers to strictly follow the rules of the game, many of which seem to be without good reason. It is inherent in the game to report personal violations of the rules as well as violations by your competitors - the purpose of which is to maintain the integrity of game and to protect the field.

If archery were to become a true professional sport, the current atmosphere of "no harm, no foul" would have to cease absolutely and completely because the true ethics of the game would have to be ensured. I don't ever see that happening in archery so we live with what we have and consider to be "reasonable".


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## cnmodaw (Aug 3, 2008)

reylamb said:


> Name one rule in Professional Golf, baseball, auto racing, or any other professionally organized sport that is ignored.
> 
> Heck, Craig Stadler was penalized years ago for putting a towel down on wet ground to make a swing, just so he didn't get his pants dirty.
> 
> I don't see any other professional sports that ignore any of their rules.


Traveling in basketball....definitely not enforced. Also holding in football....lineman grab jerseys every single play. As long as it doesn't affect the play it isn't called.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

eholguin13 said:


> I believe that the rules should be looked at and modified as needed to keep up with how the game is currently being played. They (rules) should keep the fun in the game and keep it fair for all following the rules. 99% of us posting here know the game well enough to know when a violation should be acted on and when an outdated rule should be looked over. That is why we flex, bend, or ignore some rules cheaters are easy to see and should be punished to keep the field level for all participants. So maybe its not us that need to be fixed but the rules themselves that should be modified. Rules should not make us petty, or have to hold a stop watch on someone. It has been proven many times in the recent years that cheaters will cheat regardless of rules or how they get enforced. But they will be caught eventually.


dang, can't find that "LIKE" button...

I'm with you...well stated. i know ASA has a board, representatives, a competition committee, etc., and they usually listen to the shooters and act on their concerns. but this back and forth on discussing yardage after a target is shoot needs to be addressed. that rule is making most of us outlaws...


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

cnmodaw said:


> Traveling in basketball....definitely not enforced. Also holding in football....lineman grab jerseys every single play. As long as it doesn't affect the play it isn't called.


Both are called, both are enforced, neither are seen every play in the refs eyes....at least not on every play as they see it. I see holding called all the time that doesn't affect the play, holding by a WR on the side of the ball away from where the play was run, but it was still called. I saw a travelling call last night in the Brooklyn Nets game against Joe Johnson.

There lies another difference, actual judges/refs on the field of play enforcing the rules, or in the case of golf there to interpret the rules and advise on the rules for the players.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

rsw said:


> Therein lies the point. A rule that has existed for years and years with no apparent rationale, yet it is a rule which was unknowingly violated and the violator was punished for doing so. That is precisely the difference between a professional sport and a recreation like archery. Golfers virtually always report their own violations if they recognize that they did so. Do you ever expect to see an archer do likewise? Not likely, and in fact many archers might knowingly violate a rule if they think they can get away with it. This is not to say that a golfer has never been found to have cheated, but those circumstances are extremely rare. I am not talking about the local golfers, but the very serious competitive or professional player.
> 
> I reported a one stroke penalty on myself in a world amateur golf tournament a few years ago when while trying to remove a stick against my ball, I caused my ball to move. The ball movement (perhaps 1/8") had no impact whatsoever on the upcoming shot. It happened when I was in the edge of the woods and none of the rest of my foursome could have seen it - it is simply the culture, tradition, and personal ethic that causes golfers to strictly follow the rules of the game, many of which seem to be without good reason. It is inherent in the game to report personal violations of the rules as well as violations by your competitors - the purpose of which is to maintain the integrity of game and to protect the field.
> 
> If archery were to become a true professional sport, the current atmosphere of "no harm, no foul" would have to cease absolutely and completely because the true ethics of the game would have to be ensured. I don't ever see that happening in archery so we live with what we have and consider to be "reasonable".


Roberto De Vicenzo....1968 Masters....Walked off the 72 hole of the Masters tied for the lead, but signed his scorecard with an incorrect score. He actually signed for a worse score than he actually shot that day....but still signed an incorrect scorecard and was disqualified, missing the playoff.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

eholguin13 said:


> I believe that the rules should be looked at and modified as needed to keep up with how the game is currently being played. They (rules) should keep the fun in the game and keep it fair for all following the rules. 99% of us posting here know the game well enough to know when a violation should be acted on and when an outdated rule should be looked over. That is why we flex, bend, or ignore some rules cheaters are easy to see and should be punished to keep the field level for all participants. So maybe its not us that need to be fixed but the rules themselves that should be modified. Rules should not make us petty, or have to hold a stop watch on someone. It has been proven many times in the recent years that cheaters will cheat regardless of rules or how they get enforced. But they will be caught eventually.


Then we need to get the rules changes, not bent, ignored or flexed.

Who gets to decide which rules are enforced, and which are bent, flexed or ignored?

How about the time limit thing? So what if every archer goes over by 10 seconds per archer, no big deal right, it doesn't change the final outcome right......but if every shooter on every target took an extra 10 seconds we would be adding hours to the rounds.

If there are rules that we feel don't make sense, get them changed, have them removed, otherwise how can we equitable enforce the rules if we decide which to follow and which to ignore?


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## eholguin13 (Nov 3, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Then we need to get the rules changes, not bent, ignored or flexed.
> 
> Who gets to decide which rules are enforced, and which are bent, flexed or ignored?
> 
> ...



That is what I am saying change the rules to match the game. Its the same basis with law things change and laws change be it ever so slow to match current situations. So now how do we get the rules changed if we have no input?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

If not the discussing the target after the shot some one would have picked on some other rule... I'm not going to complain of some good-looking girl wearing shortshorts and small halter tops  and rules say what.....


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

eholguin13 said:


> That is what I am saying change the rules to match the game. Its the same basis with law things change and laws change be it ever so slow to match current situations. So now how do we get the rules changed if we have no input?


I'm with you on this issue, but as long as the rules are in place they need to be enforced. The last thing we need is groups arbitrarily determining which rules they decide to follow.....there would be no consistancy.

We have input, talk to Mike. Send him an email with specifics you would like to see addressed.

I did that several years ago after the Classic Rain fiasco when no one knew what was happenning after rain shortened the Saturday shooting. I sent Mike some recommendations for detailing exactly how to handle weather situations so everyone would know what would happen prior to ever walking on a range.

That year severe weather hit while most of us were on the ranges. Open A had all scores thrown out and everyone received a 200 for Saturday. Semi Pro was going to resume their round the next morning, and everyone was confused......

You now see the exact rules recommendations I actually sent to Mike, I mean it is like he just copy and pasted my Word Document directly into the Rules.

You might be suprised at how open Mike is if you just talk to him.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> If not the discussing the target after the shot some one would have picked on some other rule... I'm not going to complain of some good-looking girl wearing shortshorts and small halter tops  and rules say what.....


Unfortunately, that rule can't be bent to only allow good looking girls wearing short shorts and halter tops......before you know it folks would be wearing that outfit that have no business wearing that outfit....if you know what I mean!!!!!!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

3D archery doesn't need to be a tight @$$ police state....... The rules are rules folks have plenty of places where they can "pick" people apart.

Braden G. got screwed a few years ago when at a World Cup event an archery ref "thought" she saw a technical violation and threw the flag on him. "Ooops" they said, but you don't get another chance.......... That's BS! That was much worse than if he had _started_ to raise his bow before his time started.

A governing authority that abuses it's power is much worse than any individual that breaks _minor _ rules occasionally.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

rsw said:


> I will sound like a stick in the mud here, but this casual, cavalier, informal approach to our sport is a part of why profesional archery will never go anywhere. It is absolutely the only pro sport that doesn't adhere precisely to the rules of the game and, in fact, gives the big finger to the rules. Personally, I have many times heard the yardage to my next target more than a few times.


I fail to see cause and effect. it will never go anywhere because people are breaking rules that the casual observer doesn't even know exist in a sport they don't even know exists? 

"Hey ESPN, I have a great idea.... show 3D Archery!"
ESPN: "We have no idea what it is, and what we do know is you guys talk yardages between stakes and break your own rules."

Rules are made and then changed to follow the times and realities. If an obscure rule is constantly breached and has no bearing on the outcome, it needs to be looked at more closely by the rules committee. In this case, maybe it should be relegated as a note for "etiquette" as opposed to a hard rule that could DQ a competitor. Practically speaking, if someone told me or I overheard any distance I would still be quite leery of their judgment, or perhaps the possibility it is BS.


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I think a lot of this boils down to envy and jealousy. I really do. Some people just can't stand the thought that other people are better at something than they are, and thus to gain closure for it, they are convinced that the only reason they are getting beat so bad, is that the ones beating them must be cheating or breaking the rules. These are the same people that must have gotten participation awards for just showing up and now they are jealous of the ones walking off the stages with checks and plaques.

I've been beaten more than I've won anything. I've hit the podium twice in ASA shoots, but haven't won one yet. Do you know what that does to me? Makes me try harder. Makes me wanna get better. Makes me hungry for that #1 spot. As Ricky Bobby said...if you ain't first, you're last. But the one thing it does NOT do, is make me say "ahhh the only reason they beat me is they probably cheated". Geez.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

IMO, you shouldn't ask and you shouldn't tell. End of story. :zip:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Unfortunately, that rule can't be bent to only allow good looking girls wearing short shorts and halter tops......before you know it folks would be wearing that outfit that have no business wearing that outfit....if you know what I mean!!!!!!


Gloom! Despair!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And we're getting off track and I'm at fault also.... Poster; "against the rules to discuss yardage after the target shot in ASA."

Tackle this one, clarify it or fix it, and then tackle the next rule.... So, for that target, for that day or for that full event....


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> 3D archery doesn't need to be a tight @$$ police state....... The rules are rules folks have plenty of places where they can "pick" people apart.
> 
> Braden G. got screwed a few years ago when at a World Cup event an archery ref "thought" she saw a technical violation and threw the flag on him. "Ooops" they said, but you don't get another chance.......... That's BS! That was much worse than if he had _started_ to raise his bow before his time started.
> 
> A governing authority that abuses it's power is much worse than any individual that breaks _minor _ rules occasionally.


So who gets to decide what the minor rules are?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

reylamb said:


> So who gets to decide what the minor rules are?


IF it's a problem then you deal with it. You know why they don't generally write tickets for people going 5 mph over the speed limit on interstates? Because it's NOT a problem and it would cause a bigger problem than it would remedy. I'm sure there are many more analogies that would use.

Common sense goes a long ways.........


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> IF it's a problem then you deal with it. You know why they don't generally write tickets for people going 5 mph over the speed limit on interstates? Because it's NOT a problem and it would cause a bigger problem than it would remedy. I'm sure there are many more analogies that would use.
> 
> Common sense goes a long ways.........


In Atlanta I think you are fine as long as you are under 15 over the posted speed.

Part of the problem with common sense....most folks don't have it. If they did pulling/pushing lines wouldn't be a big deal.....or the reason I never will attend another IBO...shooting with a group of friends. Common sense says it shouldn't happen, but common sense ain't so common these days.

Common sense says if you use a RF bino you will eventually be busted....if you range the shoot down targets prior to the shootdown you will be busted.

I hate leaving things up to common sense, too many folks are willing to do too many things just to win and justify it as common sense.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Bucks: I wasn't referring to ESPN not wanting archery because of the rules situation. It is the archer's attitude with regard to the rules that is at issue. Archers just plain aren't into strictly adhering to the rules of the game as are "most" professional athletes. The passion about adherence to "rules of the game" differentiates the archer from a true professional athlete.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Every stinking one of my favorite athletes for the last 30 years was a stinking cheater:

1. Jesse Ventura

2. Arnold Swartsenager

3. Lance Armstrong

4. Sammy Sosa

5. George Hincape

6. Tiger Woods

7. Many nascar drivers

The list goes on and on of the pro athletes who cheat so please stop throwing archery under the bus as a sub par sport because you believe some other sport is cleaner and bigger than archery such as golf. Golf has the same stinking problems as archery, as a kid my brother and I played on the local course daily in the summer because we could play for a dollar a day and we watched the members suck and hit extra balls and hit into hazards and loose balls and break a variety of rules and then we put up with them picking on us because we werent rich boy member kids and then we had to look at their scores in the paper claiming they were shooting at or below even when they sucked.

Anytime you throw humans into the mix funny things are going to happen and that is what makes coming out on top so sweet when you are one of the people who is playing a fair game and you beat those who aren't. That is Priceless.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

One of the winningest archers of all time has been quoted as saying "Win if you can, lose if you must....but always remember to cheat."


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Rules ... we don't need no stinking rules.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

A lot of archers can't agree on how to call an arrow by the rules, much less know all the rules.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Has anyone on here shared their feedback with the ASA directly? 

The ASA seems to be a great organization, I am sure they accept any and all feedback as long as it's presented to them in a professional manner.

I for one really enjoy their events and think they do a great job. We all have areas of opportunity. Sharing feedback, excepting it and acting on it is what helps us all grow, personally and professionally.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I joined the asa forum last week and the last time I checked I couldn't post yet so I am still trying.

Tmorelli had the best post out of everyone, now I am mad that he had a better post than mine.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The ASA is a great organization.


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## Slabbro (Nov 4, 2012)

After reading some of the posts on here, I just don't know what to think.....

My son is going to shoot his first 3D this weekend. Here is my take. We are on the coarse, and he spines a target. According to some of you, if I discuss the shot that has "already" happened in order to teach him some of the points of learning to judge distance, some of you would have both of us thrown out for talking yardage. "Rules are Rules" What the hell ever. If it is a big money shoot then the rules should be held tighter I feel and agree with that. At a club shoot, get your head out of your ass and enjoy the shoot. But some of the hardliners in here would cause more harm than good for the sport. I don't know every rule, but most. And I have been telling them to my son. 

One person mentioned intent, and think he has a point to a point. The level of the shoot should accurately reflect the rules. Money shoots, tight rules. Club shoots, not so much. 

For you hardliners, if one of you got me and my son kicked because I was talking to him about a bad shot that had already happened when all I am trying to do is bring him in to archery, I'm about to have a problem with some childish temper tantrum rule stickler BS. Use common sense when applying rules, consider the situation, and act accordingly. And as for the pro's, I would say watch them like a hawk and enforce the rules. A guy and his kid there for just kicks, leave them the hell alone, they are just shooting for fun. 

And I am sure there are a couple foaming at the mouth right now and are going to say that I am the casual shooter that is the problem. Or that I am probably a rule breaker myself. Guess what, I don't have a denial problem and I will tell you that I shot my first one in almost 20 years over the weekend. Guess what.....I talked some yardage with my group, sure did. Haven;t seen a 3D target in two decades so yep, I was asking "hey, what did you shoot that at?" a few times. GET OVER IT. IT WAS AFTER THE SHOT AND WALKING AWAY. Most of the guys in this thread that would have me kicked for it, are probably in the same group that was pissed because joe blow out of nowhere came in shot better than 95% of people at that shoot  

Not wanting to make anyone mad here but man, there are some real whine asses in this thread. Spend more time practicing rather than whining and maybe you will be in the top percentage and not have time to worry what the other guy is doing all the time, just my opinions, your results may vary


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> 3D archery doesn't need to be a tight @$$ police state....... The rules are rules folks have plenty of places where they can "pick" people apart.
> 
> Braden G. got screwed a few years ago when at a World Cup event an archery ref "thought" she saw a technical violation and threw the flag on him. "Ooops" they said, but you don't get another chance.......... That's BS! That was much worse than if he had _started_ to raise his bow before his time started.
> 
> A governing authority that abuses it's power is much worse than any individual that breaks _minor _ rules occasionally.


Cant have it both ways IMO> It a competition and we all know why these rules are put into place. Archers will stretch any rule they can if it benefits them.
DB


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

reylamb said:


> Improving the lie. Sketchy, but that was the interpretation.


Talk about rule bending, google what Bubba Watson did a few weeks ago. The more I see of him the less I like him


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

You guys haven't played much golf or with many people. Talk about cheat. Only ones that don't are the pro's bcuz they're on tv


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Slabbro said:


> After reading some of the posts on here, I just don't know what to think.....
> 
> My son is going to shoot his first 3D this weekend. Here is my take. We are on the coarse, and he spines a target. According to some of you, if I discuss the shot that has "already" happened in order to teach him some of the points of learning to judge distance, some of you would have both of us thrown out for talking yardage. "Rules are Rules" What the hell ever. If it is a big money shoot then the rules should be held tighter I feel and agree with that. At a club shoot, get your head out of your ass and enjoy the shoot. But some of the hardliners in here would cause more harm than good for the sport. I don't know every rule, but most. And I have been telling them to my son.
> 
> ...


It a discussion thread and don't get your panty's in a wad. Most the guys here discussing this have shot 3d for many many years and we have seen it all. You mention the kids or youth class's it amazing how many parents get upset because parents break the rules in these class's as well. I myself understand that, some of these kids train hard and want a fair contest. It a competition, ASA Pro am is a serious tournament. Not your casual home town tournament. Parents have spent thousands of dollars to travel and bring the kids to shoot, they want things fair.
DB


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## Slabbro (Nov 4, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> It a discussion thread and don't get your panty's in a wad. Most the guys here discussing this have shot 3d for many many years and we have seen it all. You mention the kids or youth class's it amazing how many parents get upset because parents break the rules in these class's as well. I myself understand that, some of these kids train hard and want a fair contest. It a competition, ASA Pro am is a serious tournament. Not your casual home town tournament. Parents have spent thousands of dollars to travel and bring the kids to shoot, they want things fair.
> DB


I assure you they are not in a bunch. I am just a blunt person. I get what you are saying, cursed with being able to see both sides. But you imply it and many have referred to it. Not everyone attends 3D's in competition mode. I shoot for fun and hunting practice. The people In my group Sunday, just for fun. And for the record I was helping with and shooting 3D's 20 years ago so I am not a stranger to what people do on the coarse. Like I said, common sense, consider the situation, and act accordingly. Things are not a perfect fit across the board. Not everyone is in competition with everyone else. The big high end shoots, qualifiers, championships and the equal; tight rules because of the nature of the shoot. If you are competing/participating in that type of shoot then you should have the sense to know that rules matter. Local club shoots, not so much. As to your example, little extreme. I know that parents will go above and beyond and yes they deserve an equal chance also. But you want me to remain silent with my son so that someone else's son isn't "cheated" by a pair just out to learn about the sport? What it seems that many people are missing is the respect for those around you. If you are going to discuss yardage with your son as you show him the sport, THEN I WILL DO IT QUIETLY! That is just common sense. You don't know those around you, respect that. You don't want to give tips to the group behind you all day-common sense should prevail here again. 

If we are going to talk in terms of comp shoots then that should be separate from "weekend shoots" because they are not the same. No one is going to spend a grand to hit the shoots that many of us attend. Many of us have no interest in the big money shoots just because things are to uptight, though normally with good intention. Perspective I think has been lost in this conversation and would greatly benefit from clarification on the type of shooting being referred too. It's a tough subject because you have different reasoning for being on the coarse.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Slabbro said:


> I assure you they are not in a bunch. I am just a blunt person. I get what you are saying, cursed with being able to see both sides. But you imply it and many have referred to it. Not everyone attends 3D's in competition mode. I shoot for fun and hunting practice. The people In my group Sunday, just for fun. And for the record I was helping with and shooting 3D's 20 years ago so I am not a stranger to what people do on the coarse. Like I said, common sense, consider the situation, and act accordingly. Things are not a perfect fit across the board. Not everyone is in competition with everyone else. The big high end shoots, qualifiers, championships and the equal; tight rules because of the nature of the shoot. If you are competing/participating in that type of shoot then you should have the sense to know that rules matter. Local club shoots, not so much. As to your example, little extreme. I know that parents will go above and beyond and yes they deserve an equal chance also. But you want me to remain silent with my son so that someone else's son isn't "cheated" by a pair just out to learn about the sport? What it seems that many people are missing is the respect for those around you. If you are going to discuss yardage with your son as you show him the sport, THEN I WILL DO IT QUIETLY! That is just common sense. You don't know those around you, respect that. You don't want to give tips to the group behind you all day-common sense should prevail here again.
> 
> If we are going to talk in terms of comp shoots then that should be separate from "weekend shoots" because they are not the same. No one is going to spend a grand to hit the shoots that many of us attend. Many of us have no interest in the big money shoots just because things are to uptight, though normally with good intention. Perspective I think has been lost in this conversation and would greatly benefit from clarification on the type of shooting being referred too. It's a tough subject because you have different reasoning for being on the coarse.


Talk all you want but giving the kids yardages before he shoots happens from parents. (Example) One year a parent would walk ahead to next target and come talk to his kid, was obvious to the other parents what was going on. Have seen it time and time again. Im often at a lost for words when a parent mention it happens on the youth ranges. Hard for me to believe a parent going to break the rules to benefit there kid winning but yes it happens! We got rules in ASA and they should be followed IMO on all ages.
DB


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## Slabbro (Nov 4, 2012)

I think you miss understand me. I said talking to him AFTER the shot. Your example of the dad going ahead.....he should have been slapped right there on the coarse and his string cut. That is just blatant cheating with no regard for those around him and not what I have referred to. I have talked about teaching and mentoring, not teaching them to be a puke cheat! I am not saying what you suggest does not happen. I was a cubmaster for scouts, I have seen and caught parents doing some seriously ruthless things in the name of their child. Again, this is not what I have referred to.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Slabbro said:


> I think you miss understand me. I said talking to him AFTER the shot. Your example of the dad going ahead.....he should have been slapped right there on the coarse and his string cut. That is just blatant cheating with no regard for those around him and not what I have referred to. I have talked about teaching and mentoring, not teaching them to be a puke cheat! I am not saying what you suggest does not happen. I was a cubmaster for scouts, I have seen and caught parents doing some seriously ruthless things in the name of their child. Again, this is not what I have referred to.


I understand you aren't doing this but often this is the things that will happen on the youth ranges. This is what causes rules to be enforced at times! I was just giving an example. We had the same thing happen on adult ranges. Buddy will walk ahead and get yardages and give them to his buddy, amazing if there a way to cheat some will find it.
DB


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## Slabbro (Nov 4, 2012)

Point taken. I agree that there is the adage that those who wish to cheat will find a way. And we as ambassador's of the sport know it is happening, it is our obligation to either say something or tell someone of consequence. I am NOT saying we are obligated to be snitches, but we are obligated to attempt to protect the good name of the sport from blatant disregard and blatant cheating no matter who it is. 

I personally have no problem saying a damn thing to people and I can assure you I have the GM come to me personally because I can be a little "to honest and upfront". The thing that I have noticed in this thread, the thing that I have been pondering more than the conversation with you, is all the admissions of witnessing outright cheating and no one having the balls to say anything. Not one mention of a person who stepped up and called the person out. Maybe there is the problem.....


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Slabbro: 

Since you are likely calling me a whineass, I will respond. First, I have no intention of crying about the rules bending in 3D. I don't personally care one way or another; rather, I am simply stating facts in response to many who can't seem to understand why professional archery is overlooked when compared to other sports. I also am addressing purely the professional perspective. I doubt seriously that anyone has ever been offended by your working with your children to improve their 3D skills and I certainly would be the last to do so. I do however, feel that a national level event, such as an ASA tournament, is not an appropriate venue to "teach" because it is an actual breach of the rules at a competitive (in your terms) event. I would also seriously consider filing a protest against another competitor and parent if they were taking unfair advantage of my child in the tournament.

More than once, hearing a group discussing the yardage on their target has given me an edge on my next target and therefore, that rule is a valid regulation. Short of blatant cheating, I would never consider reporting a violation of rules in the open classes.

Padgett:

Again, I am referring to the professional athlete or golfer. There are occasional rules violations in golf, but almost always they are an error as opposed to a wilfull, intentional violation, and I guarantee you that 3D archery rules are a million times more simple, less complex, and appropriate than the complex rules of golf, or for that matter, FITA archery. The professional golfer has a much, much more difficult time playing within the rules than does an archer, but because they are professionals, they comply with each and every little one of them. I am not trying to glorify the pro golfer - simply defining the difference in attitude that exists.

We are all aware that the weekend golfer is just like an archer. Rules be damned.


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## Slabbro (Nov 4, 2012)

And this goes back to an earlier post of mine. There is a difference between the ASA Championship or Qualifier and say such and such's club shoot on the weekends. In terms of a professional level shoot and etiquette and why there is no professional level like golf or others.......watchability. I love to play golf and I do it WITHOUT a score card, just for the joy of the coarse. Love to play but I would rather slit my wrists than watch it on TV. And if you are serious about why archery does not have a channel, then look at almost all of the majors in archery, they are all two damn days!! How in the heck can you expect ESPN to cover the nationals for two days when the payouts are equal to less than 20 minutes of broadcasting costs? Viewers make ratings, ratings attract sponsors and advertisers, which create the money that drives the machine. There is not enough money in archery to justify it currently. 
AND for the record, I meant to single out no one when I referred to the whining. Nothing personal rsw.


rsw said:


> Slabbro:
> 
> Since you are likely calling me a whineass, I will respond. First, I have no intention of crying about the rules bending in 3D. I don't personally care one way or another; rather, I am simply stating facts in response to many who can't seem to understand why professional archery is overlooked when compared to other sports. I also am addressing purely the professional perspective. I doubt seriously that anyone has ever been offended by your working with your children to improve their 3D skills and I certainly would be the last to do so. I do however, feel that a national level event, such as an ASA tournament, is not an appropriate venue to "teach" because it is an actual breach of the rules at a competitive (in your terms) event. I would also seriously consider filing a protest against another competitor and parent if they were taking unfair advantage of my child in the tournament.
> 
> ...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Slabbro said:


> Point taken. I agree that there is the adage that those who wish to cheat will find a way. And we as ambassador's of the sport know it is happening, it is our obligation to either say something or tell someone of consequence. I am NOT saying we are obligated to be snitches, but we are obligated to attempt to protect the good name of the sport from blatant disregard and blatant cheating no matter who it is.
> 
> I personally have no problem saying a damn thing to people and I can assure you I have the GM come to me personally because I can be a little "to honest and upfront". The thing that I have noticed in this thread, the thing that I have been pondering more than the conversation with you, is all the admissions of witnessing outright cheating and no one having the balls to say anything. Not one mention of a person who stepped up and called the person out. Maybe there is the problem.....


Totally agree.
DB


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

rsw said:


> Slabbro:
> 
> Since you are likely calling me a whineass, I will respond. First, I have no intention of crying about the rules bending in 3D. I don't personally care one way or another; rather, I am simply stating facts in response to many who can't seem to understand why professional archery is overlooked when compared to other sports. I also am addressing purely the professional perspective. I doubt seriously that anyone has ever been offended by your working with your children to improve their 3D skills and I certainly would be the last to do so. I do however, feel that a national level event, such as an ASA tournament, is not an appropriate venue to "teach" because it is an actual breach of the rules at a competitive (in your terms) event. I would also seriously consider filing a protest against another competitor and parent if they were taking unfair advantage of my child in the tournament.
> 
> ...


It may give you a disadvantage when it's the wrong number and you don't no were they held on target


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

rsw said:


> Slabbro:
> 
> Since you are likely calling me a whineass, I will respond. First, I have no intention of crying about the rules bending in 3D. I don't personally care one way or another; rather, I am simply stating facts in response to many who can't seem to understand why professional archery is overlooked when compared to other sports. I also am addressing purely the professional perspective. I doubt seriously that anyone has ever been offended by your working with your children to improve their 3D skills and I certainly would be the last to do so. I do however, feel that a national level event, such as an ASA tournament, is not an appropriate venue to "teach" because it is an actual breach of the rules at a competitive (in your terms) event. I would also seriously consider filing a protest against another competitor and parent if they were taking unfair advantage of my child in the tournament.
> 
> ...


I agree "tolerances" are much tighter in national tournaments compared to local "fun" shoots as they should be. BUT I totally disagree that following the rules has anything to do with why archery is generally over looked compared to other sports! Archery has a LOT going against it for it to be generally popular the biggest being that a group of kids can't grab a single bow and arrow go into the back yard and cut loose from dawn to dark. Where/when I grew up kids between the ages of 7 and 15 would gather and play basketball in the drive way and football or baseball in the back yard. that's not going to happen with archery. Little kids played with older kids..... I could go on but not being concerned about trivial rules is has nothing to do with archery having a narrow audience. 

I laugh at the paper punchers the first time they see a group of archers walk up to a 3D target to score arrows and touch the target. The tightie ****** crowd puckers up at the sight of archers touching a target before all arrows are scored. God forbid if an unschooled 3D'er shooting his first spot game touches an arrow ANYWHERE on the bale before all arrows are scored! I know why this rules exists BUT there is no reason to make a big freaking deal of it if OBVIOUSLY no harm was caused.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

JimmyP said:


> It may give you a disadvantage when it's the wrong number and you don't no were they held on target


No kidding...... If you hear "I shot it for 8" and have no idea how he scored or where he held or whether his "range finder" is the same as yours or whether he aims the same as you, it can do much more harm than good.

A buddy and I practice together frequently. I shoot Known and he shoots Open A. My Nikon rangefinder reads differently from his Nikon rangefinder. We can both pin wheel the 12 ring at say 38'ish yards and do it using "different" numbers but we've also learned we must be aiming differently. Sure if you know someone is exceptional at both yardage guessing and shot execution and know how they shoot a particular target then hearing their "number" can help if you are weak at guessing yardage. But if the average Open B guy hears another Open B guy say he shot it for 43 it's not much help or rather it shouldn't be. The weaker your 3D game is the more talking yardage will help you.

BTW, talking yardage within my group used to help me more than it does now. I now have confidence in my shot and after making a decent shot I generally have a good idea of the distance.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Slabbro said:


> I assure you they are not in a bunch. I am just a blunt person. I get what you are saying, cursed with being able to see both sides. But you imply it and many have referred to it. Not everyone attends 3D's in competition mode. I shoot for fun and hunting practice. The people In my group Sunday, just for fun. And for the record I was helping with and shooting 3D's 20 years ago so I am not a stranger to what people do on the coarse. Like I said, common sense, consider the situation, and act accordingly. Things are not a perfect fit across the board. Not everyone is in competition with everyone else. The big high end shoots, qualifiers, championships and the equal; tight rules because of the nature of the shoot. If you are competing/participating in that type of shoot then you should have the sense to know that rules matter. Local club shoots, not so much. As to your example, little extreme. I know that parents will go above and beyond and yes they deserve an equal chance also. But you want me to remain silent with my son so that someone else's son isn't "cheated" by a pair just out to learn about the sport? What it seems that many people are missing is the respect for those around you. If you are going to discuss yardage with your son as you show him the sport, THEN I WILL DO IT QUIETLY! That is just common sense. You don't know those around you, respect that. You don't want to give tips to the group behind you all day-common sense should prevail here again.
> 
> If we are going to talk in terms of comp shoots then that should be separate from "weekend shoots" because they are not the same. No one is going to spend a grand to hit the shoots that many of us attend. Many of us have no interest in the big money shoots just because things are to uptight, though normally with good intention. Perspective I think has been lost in this conversation and would greatly benefit from clarification on the type of shooting being referred too. It's a tough subject because you have different reasoning for being on the coarse.


What is being discussed here is definitely the national level shoots. Local club shoots have historically been way more relaxed, and they should be. I see very few local clubs that run 100% in accordance with ASA rules.



Daniel Boone said:


> Talk all you want but giving the kids yardages before he shoots happens from parents. (Example) One year a parent would walk ahead to next target and come talk to his kid, was obvious to the other parents what was going on. Have seen it time and time again. Im often at a lost for words when a parent mention it happens on the youth ranges. Hard for me to believe a parent going to break the rules to benefit there kid winning but yes it happens! We got rules in ASA and they should be followed IMO on all ages.
> DB


Seen it first hand at an ASA....among other things.



Daniel Boone said:


> I understand you aren't doing this but often this is the things that will happen on the youth ranges. This is what causes rules to be enforced at times! I was just giving an example. We had the same thing happen on adult ranges. Buddy will walk ahead and get yardages and give them to his buddy, amazing if there a way to cheat some will find it.
> DB


I shot an IBO years ago and got in a group with a bunch of friends........on the first target they immediately started talking NASCAR....no big deal I thought, I like NASCAR.....and after about the 5th target I noticed, no mention of Dale SR or Dale JR???? Definitely some oddball NASCAR fans....and then I figured it out. They were referring to drivers and their car numbers for the distances they were thinking the targets were.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Kstigall: Once again I will repeat myself. It is not the fact that archers ignore the rules that precludes archery from becoming a real professional sport; rather, it is the casual attitude, manifested by the lack of regard for the rules, which defines the archer in comparison to other professionals such as golfers. Of course this is not the reason we can't get professional status, but the lack of passion to comply is a symptom of the difference in attitude. The compelling issue however, is lack of TV interest in covering miniscule prize money events. Until archery decides to determine a single winner in a tournament and create a million dollar pool, sponsor money will not be there - therefore no TV. Million dollar pots are what archery needs because audiences will watch anything that offers a big payday. It is the money that draws interest, not necessarily the activity - golf and tennis are good examples of that. Both are boring but draw monster interest on TV.


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

reylamb said:


> What is being discussed here is definitely the national level shoots. Local club shoots have historically been way more relaxed, and they should be. I see very few local clubs that run 100% in accordance with ASA rules.
> 
> Seen it first hand at an ASA....among other things.
> 
> ...


Phew, I'd rather shoot with cheaters than nascar fans


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## Slabbro (Nov 4, 2012)

rsw said:


> Kstigall: Once again I will repeat myself. It is not the fact that archers ignore the rules that precludes archery from becoming a real professional sport; rather, it is the casual attitude, manifested by the lack of regard for the rules, which defines the archer in comparison to other professionals such as golfers. Of course this is not the reason we can't get professional status, but the lack of passion to comply is a symptom of the difference in attitude. The compelling issue however, is lack of TV interest in covering miniscule prize money events. Until archery decides to determine a single winner in a tournament and create a million dollar pool, sponsor money will not be there - therefore no TV. Million dollar pots are what archery needs because audiences will watch anything that offers a big payday. It is the money that draws interest, not necessarily the activity - golf and tennis are good examples of that. Both are boring but draw monster interest on TV.


Still not buying that it is the attitude of the shooters, being casual and all. If the money and ratings are there, they don't give a damn about a little casual attitude. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. THE MONEY IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOING TO ELEVATE ARCHERY TO A PROFESSIONAL TELEVISED EVENT. 

My dad's friend is semi pro so I asked for a talk. He tells me that there would be MASSIVE cheating if they could get away with it. The issue that between 300 fans and couple cameras there is virtually 0 chance for them to cheat!!He says they are no different then who we are discussing in this thread. We don't have cameras watching our every move though. I know that what he says is "his opinion" but considering that he is semi pro and would probably have a better idea then we would, I am going to go with that. 

Your assertion that they are so much more "proper and rule following" may be true but is not by choice, it by presence of the camera only! Now I am not saying "every single professional golfer" is a cheater, just that your assertions may be a bit calibrated on a skew. 

Everyone have a good night and may karma be kind to you....peace


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Slabbro said:


> Still not buying that it is the attitude of the shooters, being casual and all. If the money and ratings are there, they don't give a damn about a little casual attitude. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. THE MONEY IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOING TO ELEVATE ARCHERY TO A PROFESSIONAL TELEVISED EVENT.
> 
> My dad's friend is semi pro so I asked for a talk. He tells me that there would be MASSIVE cheating if they could get away with it. The issue that between 300 fans and couple cameras there is virtually 0 chance for them to cheat!!He says they are no different then who we are discussing in this thread. We don't have cameras watching our every move though. I know that what he says is "his opinion" but considering that he is semi pro and would probably have a better idea then we would, I am going to go with that.
> 
> ...


Golf at the professional level was stringent about their rules way before the TV cameras were there.....


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Unfortunately, I have to call your buddy out on that. There is honor amongst nearly all golfers and I run with a few of them myself.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Please stop putting you and your golfing buddies on a pedestal, it really isn't working.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> I was quilty of it as well.


DB in no way shape or form am i harassing you about spelling.....this reminds me of funny movie....Lets go To Prison.... guy said "quilty" too LOL funny movie....

back to topic i do agree it shouldnt be allowed cus i know theirs times when someone has heard others talking ahead of them.....shouldnt be allowed really at any shoot


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

dwagoner said:


> DB in no way shape or form am i harassing you about spelling.....this reminds me of funny movie....Lets go To Prison.... guy said "quilty" too LOL funny movie....
> 
> back to topic i do agree it shouldnt be allowed cus i know theirs times when someone has heard others talking ahead of them.....shouldnt be allowed really at any shoot


If I overhear someone talking yardage ahead of me all it does is screw me up


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I guess integrity isn't that important to some, but when I see bull, I call it bull.


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