# Instinctive Versus Point of Aim, Gap etc...



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I shoot instinctive and for me, as a bowhunter and target shooter - it is best. 1. it is much more enjoyable for me to shoot this way than to try and consciously aim and line stuff up. 2. I never have to think about distance or try to figure out how high or low on a given target I have to aim - I just look at the spot I want to hit and shoot. 3. You are much less likely to develop target panic issues shooting intinctively.

Remember though get the terms right - everyone aims - even instinctive shooters - the differences is that instinctive shooters aim completely at a subconscious level - whereas gap shooters and others aim at least at some level at a concious level.

Is one better than the other? It depends on the person - some guys have difficulty surrendering the shot to the subconscious (this is difficult to do), and some guys, like me - have a very difficult time judging distance (at a conscious level) and trying to line stuff up (arrow or sight).

If you want to shoot instictive - I would highly recommend the book - The The Mental Mechanics of Archery - this book really explains how the subconscious works. I would also recommend Instinctive Archery Insights by Jay Kidwell and Become the Arrow by Byron Ferguson - though he recommends you start out by shooting at a conscious level (gap sort of) and then over time relegate the entire shot to the subconscious - and this may be the way to go for some guys - I never did that - I just always looked at what I wanted to hit and shot.

No matter how you choose to aim - form is paramount - do not snap shoot and do all the funky bending at the waist and knees, etc... - get good solid form and work from there - once you have good form - you can take all sorts of shots from weird positions while hunting if you have too.

good luck


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I am an instinctive shot meaning I do not aim off the arrow but I am sure my mind sees the arrow somewhere in my preipheal vision 

I have found great success with this style for hunting Meaning shooting at unknown ranges and quick shooting 

With that said I have not seen many instinctive shots that could compete with a good gap or other sighting style.

There are guys that can but they are few and far between 

I think it was Howard Hill that said he had never seen a truly good instinctive shooter or something like that 

For me and my hunting style instinctive works well for me . If I where going to shoot a method that I needed to know exact distance I would shoot a sight 

If you are having luck stay at it only you will know what is best for you


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I focus on the target however I also gap shoot. what I do is look at my arrow tip at 35 yards plus outdoors (hunting or target) in my peripheral vision. I know from lots of practice with my hunting bow that where the riser starts to turn into my sight picture is 20 yards, I also know my gaps out to 30 from there from the edge of that riser, my point on is 50... so knowing my gaps from both the riser and my arrow tip I can make a good shot... so not sure what you want to call it, as I use the sight picture, or what the animal/target looks like in my vision and also then in peripheral use my gaps.... it is very effective for me. Not saying instinctive (really what is that but practice and knowing your yardages and points of aim?) isn't a good system, just I tend to use both. Some say it takes too long to use that, well I have shot lots of aerial targets using it, and it is fast and effective.


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input so far guys... the range/yardage thing is a big factor to me, as I would like to get good enough to do a few local 3D shoots with it this summer, even though compound will be my "main" thing.. for now at least!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

golf -

After a while you kinda realize that all the aiming systems, including using a sight, constitute a continuous spectrum, and are not solitary points. The difference depends on what you consciously focus on. 

As far as which is most accurate, that depends on the type of shooting you want to do.

The caveat is that the aforementioned spectrum works both ways. In most cases, the more defined the method is, the more conscious work is required and the more accurate/precise the end result will be. 

Viper1 out.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I aim...I shoot instinctive..and I snap shoot...and I can hit what I am looking at...pretty darn good...be it on the ground...and in the past quite often in the air..

My advise..is to get your bow/arrow combo tuned before anything...since you know how to compound shoot...this is a good start...It's not much different really than how you did it on your wheel bow..same principles..Have the correct spine/weight/length..and paper tune it..and bare shaft tune it as well..A good flying arrow is a must no matter what style of shooting you elect to use..or how you stand...or even if you just lean to shoot..You just have to do the same thing consistently...

You'll see a bunch of us guys here knock heads over which style of shooting is the best..but... the only person that can equivocally say what is "best" for you...is you.. Earl Hoyt Jr. told me when I got my recurve from him..was to find what worked best for me and stick with it..so...I will suggest the same thing to you..See what feels natural..and then use it..and don't be afraid of trying/doing something un-orthodox...cause there is always different ways of getting the same results..

Hitting way left of the target could very well be a tuning issue...it can also be a eye issue you have like with glasses..or something as simple as having your bow shoulder pointing way left of the target...so a simple correction of where your shoulder is when you raise your bow arm will cast your arrow left/right..Try a simple test and see if this helps..Set up to the target as you normally do..standing at right angle to your target..and lay your bow across your chest holding it up high below your shoulders and see where the tip is pointing...if it is pointing way left..rotate your shoulders..and or move your feet accordingly...to put the tip of the bow right at the target where you want it to go..memorize this shoulder angle to the target..cause when you raise your bow arm to shoot..your shoulder has to be pointing in this way..

Or if that doesn't work...you can draw and aim as you normally do...but before you release the arrow..close your left eye for a RH shooter...Right eye LH shooter and see where your point is in relation to the target...it could very well be a parallax issue with your vision or even from your glasses and that is causing you to shoot left...You could even a eye dominance issue since your not using a peep sight..and closing 1 eye will show this quickly...Since your trying to aim...then aim it...in time with enough shots down range..you will build a mental sight picture memory of where your hand has to be in relation to the targets at various distances..so that aspect of shooting various distances..will be more seamless...BTW...closing a eye *after* you have estimated the range..won't hurt..and you don't need your peripheral for targets..but...if you get in the habit of doing this...you will need to continue doing it..even when hunting...It's always beneficial to use your peripheral vision..as you know..but...I know a couple guys who wear a patch over 1 eye for doing this with a bow...and a bunch of guys who rifle shoot do the same thing..

Good Luck

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

actually agrees with viper's post - except the last part:

_The caveat is that the aforementioned spectrum works both ways. In most cases, the more defined the method is, the more conscious work is required and the more accurate/precise the end result will be._

This may be true at known distances - but not at unknown distances or at say - moving targets or shooting fast - like a pop-up challenge where you dont' know where the next target will be - how far or how close.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> actually agrees with viper's post - except the last
> 
> This may be true at known distances - but not at unknown distances or at say - moving targets or shooting fast - like a pop-up challenge where you dont' know where the next target will be - how far or how close.



That last part sounds like hunting


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

exactly


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

golfingguy27 said:


> What seems to be the choice of most accurate traditional shooters?


That depends on the type of shooting they're doing.

Point of Aim has it's advantages in target competitions that involve targets and situations similar to the NFAA 300 rounds. The closer the archer can get their Point On Distance (POD) set at the target's distance....the easier the aiming process becomes. 

Many competitors set up their bows and arrows with really long arrows, heavy points, shoot lighter bows, have higher anchors and shoot 3 Under to get their POD closer to their typical target distance of about 20yrds. so they can use their arrow point like a sight pin. Other archers take advantage of this also. Most archers will benefit by getting their arrow point closer to being on target....even archers who aim Instinctively. The problem is...if an archer wants to totally rely on their subconscious/unconscious mind to control some of the aiming processes....the closer the arrow point is to being on target...the harder it is to avoid having the conscious mind use the target point to adjust the archer's aim.

3D competitions where the targets are set at typical hunting distance doesn't seem to really favor any specific shooting style but when the target distances are set at longer distances, Point of Aim used by String Walkers and Face Walkers begin to show advantages.

Field Archery competitions seem to be dominated by String Walkers and Face Walkers.

Instinctive Aiming has it's advantages in many hunting circumstances where an archer needs to shoot fast and close such as moving targets where the archer basically needs to react fast or loose his chance of taking a shot.

All of this is said based on generalizations. There can be archers that are not the norm that use some other technique and do well with it.

An archer that dominates target competitions while using Instinctive Aiming has been blessed with a greater amount of hand and eye coordination and has developed that hand and eye coordination into an ability that not many can exploit or develop to that same level.

Also keep in mind...an archer doesn't have to choose just one aining technique.

I personally use Instinctive, Gap, Split Vision and Point of Aim depending on the shot. I realized that if I wanted to become the best archer I could be....I personally needed to learn all of those because my goals as an archer was to be able to shoot and hit just about any target and situation I may be in.

Not every archer shares my goals. Some archers just want to hunt and keep their shot distances close. Others just want to compete in NFAA 300 rounds...while I...want to be able to do it all.



golfingguy27 said:


> I guess I need to get some books and/or videos about both and learn more about them and figure out what works best for me??


ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

An aiming technique should be based on an archer's goals, personality and ABILITY and the way you find out what to use is by doing some research like you're doing and than trying the aiming technique out.



golfingguy27 said:


> My main issue so far with using the tip of the arrow as a sort of sight, is that I need to hold so far off of my target both in elevation and windage, that I am usually just aiming at some random point in space. I hit WAY left of where the tip of my arrow is pointing, which I don't know if is a tuning issue, a form issue, etc and am going to make another post about that to ask for help.


It most likely is an eye dominance issue but the other factors may be playing into it also.

Ray :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Well, in terms of the current top shooters in IBO and ASA the evidence is that a system of aiming is what wins. I can't speak to the past because I am not knowledgeable enough of the say top 10 guys in each class. Right now sharpbroadhead is the only guy shooting in the top 10 that shoots instinctively that I am aware of. Yes, Ricky Welch won an IBO World Championship shooting instinctive in 2008. Dave Wallace has owned the LB class for a long time and he gaps, Jim Powell has won several RU and TRAD titles and he gaps, Paul Vogel won last year and he gaps, DeWayne Martin won Indoor Worlds this year and he gaps (the top 3 gap), ASA just held their first shoot this year, Dan Haire won and Dewayne was second - both gap. Chris Schwandt won MLB at Trad Worlds and he gaps. I could go on. I'm not saying you can't shoot instinctively well. That simply isn't true. You can be very accurate. Also, it does work well for hunting, but estimating the distance is always made out to be the boogie man and it just isn't. Most folks that are critical have never gapped or used another system of aiming in their life. Most gappers shot instinctively before they developed a system. Use the system that gives you the accuracy you are happy with. My only point is that the evidence shows that having a system of aiming wins tournaments.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Something else to share - Yesterday at our local schools NFAA Archery After School program, where I volunteer and help on Tuesdays and Thursdays - the teacher, a friend of mine, asked me to give them some shooting advise. Now the kids have been shooting Matthews Genesis bows without sights and they were being taught to look down the arrow and use it as a sight of sorts.

When I talked to the kids yesterday - I asked them to give something else a try. I told them all to not pay any attention to the arrow at all and to just concentrate on the smallest spot in the center of the gold or the balloon that they could find and to keep looking at it till the arrow hit. Some of the kids asked me how they will know if they are lined up right then - and I told them to not worry about it - just worry about keeping your eye on that spot and to try it just for today and see what they think. 

Every single kid shot better - without exception - kids who were missing the entire target before started actually getting some arrows in the gold!

After the class some of the kids asked me more questions about why it worked so well - and I simply told them that your brain will do what you want done - if you don't interfere with it - and of course - as little kids they did not get it - so I put another way.

i said - if you are running up the steps and think about the steps and where your feet are going what happens - and they all said - "you trip" - I then said - do you get it now - and after they thought about it - they got it. I chuckled to myself and told the instructor that it is funny that these 10 years olds got it right away - but it is a constant debate in the trad community -


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ranger is right in what he says about the tournament shooters - but I suspect that the problem with guys who started instinctively and then switched to a "system" as Jimmy refered to it was not so much the aiming method that improved their shooting - but the "system".

Unfortunately many today equate instinctive shooting with snap shooting and form that looks like the guy in the photo. So they never get very accurate and then try other things and when they start gap shooting or whatever conscious aiming method - they also start to develop a system of shooting - ie: good form - and i suspect that this has more to do with the improved shooting than the switch in aiming methods.

In the end it really does not matter - if you get the arrow where you want it to go and it works for what you want to do - that is all that matters.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> View attachment 1280918
> 
> Unfortunately many today equate instinctive shooting with snap shooting and form that looks like the guy in the photo. So they never get very accurate and then try other things and when they start gap shooting or whatever conscious aiming method - they also start to develop a system of shooting - ie: good form - and i suspect that this has more to do with the improved shooting than the switch in aiming methods.
> 
> In the end it really does not matter - if you get the arrow where you want it to go and it works for what you want to do - that is all that matters.


You right...it doesn't really matter......and .....only you as far as I know your the only one that really have this issue with G.Fred's style of shooting...and slam him and his style when ever you get the chance to..Most other people don't...

Opps...I forgot...you have me ignored...too bad...

Mac


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

I think you need to check your eye dominance and then tune your bow first. As far as shootive videos check out Masters of the Barebow 3, probably the best form advice in a single dvd out there. I have shot with a lot of great shots and they all shoot either gap or string walk.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Between Sharp and Jimmy you have a bunch of sound advice from guys who get it done on the shooting line and in the field after critters . And I think Marc W has sen some pretty good shooters in his day ... by all accounts JRW and some of those lads are a fair hand at the range ... argghhhh matey ......

I'd suggest that form is a keystone to good shooting and maintaining the basics in a comfortable and repeatable shot sequence makes life soooooooo much easier ... aiming , and aiming systems are a choice that comes later . 
And I don't know why people restrict themselves to just one aiming style if they don't need to .... but its all needs dependant ... If I just hunted and shot 3d i'd probably just point and shoot instinctively as I do now because I do okay at shorter range [30and under ] ... but I also shoot field out to 80 yards and clout ..... and so I need a defined aiming syatem at those ranges .....

Form , form , form ..... then pick the aiming style you need and want to get the job done .....


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Also maybe get some coaching ... a good coach is worthe every penny spent ...

I spent two weeks with Rod Jenkins and it re invogorated my archery ... Ken trained with Ricky Welch and now ranks well in the IBO Trads ....... Jimmy goes from strength to strength in competition nad has been coached by some good coaches ..

note ... given the lack of real comp over here i vicariously live through you guys .......... lol !!!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey benofthehood - I never trained with Rick Welch or attended his school - I just was fortunate enough to have shot with him at 3 World Championships and he was gracious enough to give me tips and advise. I would love to go to his school - but right now I can only swing one big trip a year for archery - and it will be the IBO Worlds. I love watching the top shooters shoot - even when they beat me. I have never had a coach - pretty much a whole lot of trail and error - the only school I ever attended was Asbells - and if you watch me shoot - you will see that I don't shoot that style -


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

ooopss ... sorry Ken , I thought mistakenly that you had attended his clinic ...
again apols and thanks for setting it straight ...
Ben


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

This is all great information and I appreciate it all. I came home from work tonight and shot some in my basement. Shooting from 7 yards or so, I don't think the shooting left issue is caused by eye dominance. I will do some more experimenting when I get to the archery club and can shoot form 20 yards and don't need to worry about missing a bag target and putting an arrow into the drywall of my basement. I can't figure out what the problem is. I am shooting with three fingers under and anchoring with the tip of my index finger at the corner of my mouth. Should I be angling my head out or something to get my eye more over the arrow? The way I see it, either my eye is too far to the left, or the tip of my arrow is too far to the right if it is an aiming issue. One other note, I am not using any sort of a side plate or anything next to my arrow, it is all the way against the riser. I would think this would make the bow shoot to the right if anything, BUT the only possible question would be wether or not that is making the tip of the arrow so far to the right, that it is acting as if I had a sight moved all the way to the right, which would cause me to aim left??


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

Too many variables but I am betting your arrows are too stiff. Need to know draw weight of bow and spine of arrows to really give advice.
As far as aiming I also suggest many different methods. I shoot gap until I hit point on, then point of aim past.


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

marc weier said:


> Too many variables but I am betting your arrows are too stiff. Need to know draw weight of bow and spine of arrows to really give advice.
> As far as aiming I also suggest many different methods. I shoot gap until I hit point on, then point of aim past.


Seriously doubt the arrows are stiff. Shooting 43#, .500 spine Gold Tip Entradas, cut to 29", 125 gr in the tip right now.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

They sound way to stiff to me ... 

If those are a true .500 spine I'd read that as approx spining at 60# ... maybe just for giggles try 175 or 200gn head and see if that helps point of impact ... 

what is your actual draw length ?


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## ChadMR82 (Sep 22, 2009)

I would highly recommend a sight until you get your form and tuning issues taken care of. This is what I did and trad shooting became way more fun for me. Consistently hitting the target is a great confidence booster and lets you concentrate on form and tuning issues. You can alway remove the sight after you have the basics down. Just my .02.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chad -

A lot of people who get into "trad" are just happy flingin' arras and having a blast doing it - and that's cool. For the guys who really want to reach their potential with as few roadblocks as possible, an aiming system and a light weight bow are the best "guarantees" you can get. 

These days, I limit new new shooters to 30# or less at their draw length and start with some kind of aiming system (even a fabricated sight) as soon as basic form is down. After that, the sky's the limit to technique and draw weights. 

Good call.

Golf - 

Since there seems to be an number of opinions on your arrows, make sure the bow is set up according to spec and strip the fletching off a few arrows and bare shaft them. It solves the problem in no uncertain terms. (Yes, a temporary sight will help here too.) 

BTW - concerning the different opinions. Whichever path you choose to follow, just remember who said what after a year or so. It's not necessarily a right or wrong thing, it's a right or wrong thing for YOU.

Viper1 out.


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

FWIW I shoot the same shafts, an inch longer, at 50# on a metal ILF riser and I have to play with my plunger to get them weak enough to shoot 125 grain tips. If your riser isn't cut well past center I think you would you would need 600 entradas or add alot of tip weight.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

what?? 

ok - i am not going to say a thing - besides - TUNE - bareshaft and through paper and see what your arrows are doing before you go by internet recommendations.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

The reason I quit trying to shoot instinctive is:

1 I got tired of losing when I shot 3-D competitions
2 I run my own business and I've always got something running thru my head that would cause me to lose focus and the arrow gave me something to focus on during the shot.

3 I knew if I wanted be competitive against the best archers in the world I know I would have to be a great shot at the short and the long bombs like last year the alligator at 33 yards at the IBO worlds and the 32 yard coyote in cleveland..


Instinctive is great IF you can keep your mind clear I know of two good instinctive shooter but neither have won a World Championship...


Dewayne Martin


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ah -- it just depends on the person - you guys make it seem like instinctive is something extremely difficult - it is not - I am by no means anyone special and I have beat guys that have won world championships and if I can do it - anyone can - it just depends on the person and what they prefer and want out of archery.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Instinctive rules, but only when your shooting *true* instinctive like me...... :tongue:


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

ok.. new update. I haven't gotten to do much of any shooting the last day or two, but I did just accurately measure my draw length. I had 28" in my head, but that was from shooting my friend's olympic recurve. Much different anchor. My draw length shooting trad is 27". I then measured the draw weight at 27" and it is about 42#. I am definitely getting mixed input on the spine being right or wrong. I can't bare shaft tune yet because Lancaster is screwing around with me on my shafts. I ordered a dozen Feb. 1, the said they were backordered, but would ship on Feb. 3. They shipped THREE shafts and told me the rest won't ship until the 15th or 16th. So for now I have 3 arrows to play with. I am going to put a sight on the bow to mess with for a while. That way I should be able to shoot some good solid groups when it comes to bare shaft tuning, and I can focus on form for now.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

golfingguy27 said:


> I had 28" in my head, but that was from shooting my friend's olympic recurve. Much different anchor. My draw length shooting trad is 27".


When you say 'much different anchor' is that because you are actually anchoring differently as in below the chin with your friend's Olympic recurve?

The reason why I'm asking us just because you're shooting an Olympic style recurve does NOT mean you have to anchor below the chin. Either bow can be shot the same way. I just want to be clear in our communication.



golfingguy27 said:


> I can't bare shaft tune yet because Lancaster is screwing around with me on my shafts.


Actually...you can. All you have to do is remove the fletching from one of your current arrows...but maybe you feel your ruining the arrow by doing so.



golfingguy27 said:


> I am going to put a sight on the bow to mess with for a while. That way I should be able to shoot some good solid groups when it comes to bare shaft tuning, and I can focus on form for now.


That's not a bad idea :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> it just depends on the person


Ya got that right! :wink:



sharpbroadhead said:


> you guys make it seem like instinctive is something extremely difficult


That depends on the person and their goals so I would try to remember your previous comment before you say it's not hard :wink:



sharpbroadhead said:


> I am by no means anyone special


I would definitely have to disagree with you there. You're definitely special :wink:



sharpbroadhead said:


> and I have beat guys that have won world championships and if I can do it - anyone can - it just depends on the person and what they prefer and want out of archery.


There you go again....contradicting yourself. It either depends on the person or it doesn't.

IMO....not everyone can shoot at the same level while aiming Instinctively....and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Each one of us have been given certain blessings and talents...but the amazing thing about us is that we can often overcome challenges by doing something different....which is why it's great there are other aiming techniques an archer can investigate to see if they can improve their accuracy with them.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> *It depends on the person *- some guys *have difficulty *surrendering the shot to the subconscious (*this is difficult to do*), and some guys, like me - have a very difficult time judging distance (at a conscious level) and trying to line stuff up (arrow or sight).


See...this is exactly what I'm talking about. Kinda confusing when you are obviously trying to help others out...but you contradict yourself. AT one point you say it's difficult and in another post you say it's not and anyone can do it.

Hmmmmm....:dontknow:

Ray :shade:


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## golfingguy27 (Oct 15, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> When you say 'much different anchor' is that because you are actually anchoring differently as in below the chin with your friend's Olympic recurve?
> 
> The reason why I'm asking us just because you're shooting an Olympic style recurve does NOT mean you have to anchor below the chin. Either bow can be shot the same way. I just want to be clear in our communication.
> 
> ...


Yes, I anchored under my chin with the Olympic recurve. I did that because if I got into shooting Olympic recurves seriously, I would want to shoot FITA which means 100 yard shots. With my relatively short draw length, I would need a low anchor to get there without having to shoot ridiculous draw weights.

As far as bare shaft tuning, it isn't ruining an arrow that is stopping me, I fletch and refletch all of the time, no biggie, but when I am bare shaft tuning, I like to have at least 3 in each group (fletched and bare) so that I can compare the centers of the groups instead of just one arrow. Hopefully the rest of my shafts will get here soon.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

golfingguy27 said:


> Yes, I anchored under my chin with the Olympic recurve. I did that because if I got into shooting Olympic recurves seriously, I would want to shoot FITA which means 100 yard shots. With my relatively short draw length, I would need a low anchor to get there without having to shoot ridiculous draw weights.


I can definitely understand that.



golfingguy27 said:


> As far as bare shaft tuning, it isn't ruining an arrow that is stopping me, I fletch and refletch all of the time, no biggie, but when I am bare shaft tuning, I like to have at least 3 in each group (fletched and bare) so that I can compare the centers of the groups instead of just one arrow. Hopefully the rest of my shafts will get here soon.


Cool....let us know how it goes than when they get there.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've almost doubled my indoor scores going from instinctive to point of aim with heavy arrows. My 3D scores are also up about 50% going with a conscious gap, I think I could put another 20% on that with stringwalking.
Instinctive does work very well for some people in some situations, but I see those same people falling apart when they have an off day. The folks I see shooting with a definite aiming system seem to have less accuracy variation day to day.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

grant - I shoot instinctive and do not "fall apart" on an off day - I had a bad night tonight and tuesday at my leagues - Tonight I scored a 264 - I average a 274 out of 30 targets indoor from 15-35 yards. Tuesday we shoot 48 targets out to 25 yards I missed two targets completely - and thought my score was really going to suffer - but so far I average 479 - and I scored a 479 - even with the two misses on a bad day.

I still maintain that most guys who shot instinctive and then switched to a conscious aiming method - started out snap shooting and bending all over the place thinking that was the way to shoot instinctive - and then when it didn't work very well - they switched to some other form of aiming - but along with that switch - they gave up snap shooting and all the bending - and devolped a consistent form - and instead of giving the credit where it belongs - namely - to the consistent form - they instead give it to the aiming method.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Just some FYI for those interested in the different aiming techniques.

Judging distance is just part of the aiming technique. It doesn't necessarily define it.

An archer doesn't need to consciously analyze a target's distance to be using or not using a specific aiming technique.

An archer can determine that a target's distance as close, meduim or far...or they can determine it as 10.5yrds., 25yrds. or 47yrds. Some don't consciously think about it at all.

What aiming method an archer uses...does NOT necessarily determine how an archer judges distance.

It is true that many of the archers that aim while using one of the conscious aiming methods such as Gap, Split Vision, Point of Aim, String Walking and Face Walking will try to analyze a target's distance as accurately as they can....BUT...not every archer does that. Some just feel the distance based on recognizing and shooting from those distances over and over again...and if your typical target's distances are between 5 and 20yrds. an archer doesn't necessarily need to be as precise with their range estimation as a field archer needs to be.

I personally aim Instinctively, Gap, Split Vision and Point of Aim.

It really depends on the shot and situation which aiming technique I use and which way I determine the target's distance.

Archers, who primarily use Gap aiming such as myself...don't always think about a target's distance. Some of us are so focused on the center of the bullseye that we don't need to analyze the target's distance consciously.

In other words....just because an archer doesn't estimate distance...does NOT mean they are aiming Instinctively. There's more to an archer aiming Instinctively than just how they judge distance...and vice versa regarding the other aiming techniques.

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Grantmac, i think you are dead on!!!! Thats the same problem I had one day I couldnt be beat over 9 points per shot the next was awful,barely 6 points per shot. I just wasnt consistent enough to shoot instinctive...


Howard Hill Said it best "Ive known a few instinctive shooters but none of them were good".


Dewayne Martin


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Howard Hill - If he said that did not understand "instinctive" the way we use the term today in relation to archery - namely - aiming at a subconscious level - because it is quite obvious when Hill shot aspirins out of the air and baseballs and golf balls that were bouncing on the ground in front of him that he was shooting instinctive.

I have read people say that that quote of Hill is false because the term "instinctive" was not even commonly used in his day - I really don't know - but I know this - he was aiming at an instinctive level when he shot aspirin and moving and bouncing balls - so if he said he never saw a good instinctive shot - he did not understand "instinctive" as we do today.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabow - also - how can you say that that you have never seen a good instinctive shot - I shoot instinctive and shoot at the same level as you do and you are a good shot


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Howard Hill - If he said that did not understand "instinctive" the way we use the term today in relation to archery -


Really? Or could it be that he actually never saw an archer who truly aimed Instinctively that was good in any archery competition?

You obviously want people to take your word for it when you claim to aim Instinctively. Why not take Howard's word for what it is?



sharpbroadhead said:


> because it is quite obvious when Hill shot aspirins out of the air and baseballs and golf balls that were bouncing on the ground in front of him that he was shooting instinctive.


Yes...he most likely was aiming Instinctively with those shots.



sharpbroadhead said:


> he was aiming at an instinctive level when he shot aspirin and moving and bouncing balls - so if he said he never saw a good instinctive shot - he did not understand "instinctive" as we do today.


Maybe if you spent more time trying to understand someone rather than making false assumptions...you may in fact start understanding people better.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Howard Hill - If he said that did not understand "instinctive" the way we use the term today in relation to archery - namely - aiming at a subconscious level - because it is quite obvious when Hill shot aspirins out of the air and baseballs and golf balls that were bouncing on the ground in front of him that he was shooting instinctive.
> 
> I have read people say that that quote of Hill is false because the term "instinctive" was not even commonly used in his day - I really don't know - but I know this - he was aiming at an instinctive level when he shot aspirin and moving and bouncing balls - so if he said he never saw a good instinctive shot - he did not understand "instinctive" as we do today.


How is it you know this Ken ? He understood what is...and what isn't a instinct..The problem today...is many are trying to make how we shoot out as a natural one...which it isn't. 

Just as you get aggravated when folks try to say or tell you something about how you shoot......I think Howard said what and how he shot better than what anyone else could...No one besides Howard can say what if anything was going through the his mind while he was shooting..You can assume all you wish to..and in the end...it's only a opinion...nothing more..

While you may be 100% correct...you may also be 100 % wrong too...none of us really know...

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

as archers go?..i am probably the least knowledgable man walking the face of the earth when it comes to the life and times of Howard Hill..mainly cause my childhood archery hero was Fred Bear...and i wouldn't claim to know a whole lot about Fred The Archer but i just admired the man..probably cause him name was on my first bow..at 8 years old..in 1966..but this topic is begging me to ask a question about Howard Hill that's been bugging me for months since i've been reading quite a bit about him on my recent addiction to trad websites so here's the question...

If Howard truely was a "Gap Shooter"?...how is it that one of his big exhibitions was to collect an arrow from all these other archers and plant them all in the bull?..i mean surely all the "other arrows" varied in weight, length and spine so point-on gapping would pretty much result in an embarassing outcome the way i see it...personally?..i think Howard was like many of us..he used every tool in the box and the right tool for the right job..and then some.

and it's the.."and then some"..where many of us get left wanting. :laugh:

I probably aint cut out to carry Howard Hills quiver..and i love what he did for promotion of the sport..but my admiration for him stops where Hollywood Howard starts..and is probably why i stuck with Fred Bear..Fred was straighter than his arrows!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow Jinkster - I find myself in total agreement with you. 

_If Howard truely was a "Gap Shooter"?...how is it that one of his big exhibitions was to collect an arrow from all these other archers and plant them all in the bull?..i mean surely all the "other arrows" varied in weight, length and spine so point-on gapping would pretty much result in an embarassing outcome the way i see it...personally?..i think Howard was like many of us..he used every tool in the box and the right tool for the right job..and then some.
_

I read somewhere, but I cannot remember where - that this supposed quote of Hill is not true, but since I cannot remember where I read it - I cannot say for certain that it is not true, but it seems to be unlikely that he said it since the term "instinctive" was not widely applied to archery until after his prime - and some say after his death.

But the bottom line is clear - as you pointed out Jinkster - if Hill was truly a gap shooter - how is it that he could take anyones arrow and hit the bull - even short drawing for short arrows? How is it he hit aspirin out of the air - our bouncing, moving balls, etc...

I stand by my statement - that IF this statement was truly made by Hill - he had a different understanding of the term than we do today.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> as archers go?..i am probably the least knowledgable man walking the face of the earth when it comes to the life and times of Howard Hill..mainly cause my childhood archery hero was Fred Bear...and i wouldn't claim to know a whole lot about Fred The Archer but i just admired the man..probably cause him name was on my first bow..at 8 years old..in 1966..but this topic is begging me to ask a question about Howard Hill that's been bugging me for months since i've been reading quite a bit about him on my recent addiction to trad websites so here's the question...
> 
> If Howard truely was a "Gap Shooter"?...how is it that one of his big exhibitions was to collect an arrow from all these other archers and plant them all in the bull?..i mean surely all the "other arrows" varied in weight, length and spine so point-on gapping would pretty much result in an embarassing outcome the way i see it...personally?..i think Howard was like many of us..he used every tool in the box and the right tool for the right job..and then some.
> 
> ...


The answer isn't that difficult since Howard forgot more than most of us will ever hope to know about archery...He could look at the arrow..and adjust his draw for it..If it were a weaker shaft..he wouldn't full draw..Times were different when he was doing this..They didn't have the multitude of shafts around then for most common folks..and tip weights were pretty much standarized..

I remember as I growing up..we all learned to use what we had on hand..There wasn't alot of us kids who could afford to send off for a new dozen arrows every month..and short drawing was and is a very vital part to shooting for some of us..Broken/repaired arrows..mismatched ones..Now...everything has to be perfect...and you have to be at full draw...otherwise according to some around here you can't shoot accurately...

A lot of the old time "greats" did things and looked at things differently...and most believed in the KISS principle...What worked for them..can still work for us today..

Mac


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Actually, the reference to Hill wasn't him taking other peoples arrows and shooting them into a bullseye. It was him taking a box, laying it on the ground than gathering arrows from other people and shooting them into said box. There never was a reference to either the distance nor the size of the box...

I believe this was more of a demonstration thing than an all out accuracy thing. Keep in mind he had an helper spine his arrows from him by the gross and he was extremely picky about what he shot for hunting.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

i went from point of aim, to instictive, back to point of aim and now im back to instinctive. think im staying there this time


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

sawtooth - all that matters is that you enjoy it and accomplish what you want - there is really no right or wrong way - just the way that keeps you shooting and enjoying it


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> sawtooth - all that matters is that you enjoy it and accomplish what you want - there is really no right or wrong way - just the way that keeps you shooting and enjoying it


ya, i shot point of aim all summer, but lately its been instinctive and im liking it, esp at 30 yds


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Why is it so hard to believe that a gap shooter or point of aim shooter could not hit an aspirin or baseball thrown etc? Byron Ferguson's book and video shows you a way to become a good gapper yet he is the master of aerial targets. He shoots the dots until the gap is ingrained into his subconscious. The problem is that some people speak professionally about a subject matter that that they are ignorant of - using the point of the arrow to aim. To proudly proclaim that you have never seen the arrow when shooting and then go on to tell us what we can and can't do when we do see the arrow is absurd. It's like arguing with me about what the Pech Valley in Afghanistan looks and feels like when you've never been there. 

The other assumption in this thread is about Howard shooting other peoples arrows accurately. I don't know if he did or not, but at least two of you make the assumption that he would have to shoot instinctively to do so. That is also invalid. If I take 10 arrows from people, all spined differently and in different lengths and let you shoot each one and me gap with each one there will be no difference. They will all fly as they do from the given bow. How you aim them is irrelevant. Shooting instinctively has no bearing on the first arrow. Your brain has no idea where that arrow will go because it's never shot that arrow or one like it before. It's on the second, identical arrow, that your brain will make the correction. It received input on the first shot and will then move your point of aim subconsciously to hit where you are looking, but on the first arrow it's in the blind. Thus there could be no pattern. It's the same if you are using the point. You consciously don't know where to put the point. I will say this though. You give me 5 of your matched arrows and I'll group them for you using the point. They may not be in the X but they will group because I will aim them and and shoot them the same each shot and they will impact at the same point. That seems to amaze people when you shoot their bow and arrows, but it should not. 

I did not mean this to be derogatory in any way but I felt compelled to point out what I consider to be invalid assumptions in the thread.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sawtoothscream said:


> i went from point of aim, to instictive, back to point of aim and now im back to instinctive. think im staying there this time


Dont feel alone..i'm right there with ya and...yep..so far..because so far?..i havent attempted getting serious at ranges beyond 30yds and very little of that..and the bulk of my practice has been at 15 & 20yds...because the form i'm most natural with is split-finger and "V"ing the jawbone for anchor..which points the arrow point-on so low i'd almost hafta be picking a spot in the dirt. LOL!

However..i consider myself still in the "physical/form training" stages..so gapping "may" become a feasible method when i do get out beyond 30yds or so..but any closer?..instinctive has been the way to fly for me.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Ranger B said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that a gap shooter or point of aim shooter could not hit an aspirin or baseball thrown etc? Byron Ferguson's book and video shows you a way to become a good gapper yet he is the master of aerial targets. He shoots the dots until the gap is ingrained into his subconscious. The problem is that some people speak professionally about a subject matter that that they are ignorant of - using the point of the arrow to aim. To proudly proclaim that you have never seen the arrow when shooting and then go on to tell us what we can and can't do when we do see the arrow is absurd. It's like arguing with me about what the Pech Valley in Afghanistan looks and feels like when you've never been there.
> 
> The other assumption in this thread is about Howard shooting other peoples arrows accurately. I don't know if he did or not, but at least two of you make the assumption that he would have to shoot instinctively to do so. That is also invalid. If I take 10 arrows from people, all spined differently and in different lengths and let you shoot each one and me gap with each one there will be no difference. They will all fly as they do from the given bow. How you aim them is irrelevant. Shooting instinctively has no bearing on the first arrow. Your brain has no idea where that arrow will go because it's never shot that arrow or one like it before. It's on the second, identical arrow, that your brain will make the correction. It received input on the first shot and will then move your point of aim subconsciously to hit where you are looking, but on the first arrow it's in the blind. Thus there could be no pattern. It's the same if you are using the point. You consciously don't know where to put the point. I will say this though. You give me 5 of your matched arrows and I'll group them for you using the point. They may not be in the X but they will group because I will aim them and and shoot them the same each shot and they will impact at the same point. That seems to amaze people when you shoot their bow and arrows, but it should not.
> 
> I did not mean this to be derogatory in any way but I felt compelled to point out what I consider to be invalid assumptions in the thread.


Jimmy....just a thought here but..recently i read where Howard was questioned as to wether he would consider using the more modern aluminum shafts that came to fruition during his time and he said something like..

"No...i'm sticking with wood shafts"

and when questioned why he was sticking with wood shafts?..his response was something like..

"I don't really know..i guess you could call it sentiment"

and i'm thinking i do know why HH stuck with wood shafts..that "why" being...because HH was so familiar with wood shafts that much like drawing his bow he could "Feel How Limber Or Stiff" a wood shaft was and know exactly what to do with it once it was nocked on his bow where?...aluminum shafts were completely foriegn to him...just like..

I love wood limbed bows where i can feel and visualize what the arrows going to do with every inch of it's smooth predictable draw where once carbon is laminated into the mix?..it sorta takes away that "feeling" for me..and while i'm sure they're great performers for picture perfect form/draw shooting at dots?..they just don't give me the same level of feel and predictability that wood does...like Howard and his prefered choice of shaft material...wood.

Also?..i can remember as a kid in jersey..we had a salt marsh gully across the street..and i usta find old stone arrow heads sifting through the many rocks that covered the hill leading down to that gully..and one of my favorite things to do was spend hours throwing those rocks...some big and heavy..some small and light..some big and light..some small and heavy! LOL!...but i threw so many i developed and extremely acute "feel" for throwing rocks...i once hit a crow in flight coming straight towards me..dead in the chest...he tumbled through the air and hit the ground but recovered and flew off before i got to him..but still..i think Howard had that same feel for assorted arrows that i had for rocks..just a thought.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ranger B - Byron Ferguson says - and it is in BOLD in his book Become the Arrow and page 33:

*Don't become too dependant on gap shooting. Once you have become proficient, immediately begin concentrating more upon the mark and less upon the gap. This will begin your refinement of the clear focus aspect mentioned in the introduction, and this sets you on the road to becoming the arrow*

Ferguson is not a gap shooter nor does he teach gap shooting - he suggests that as a BEGINNER you use gap shooting so that you don't give up to quickly on the sport - but as your progress you get to a point where you pay no conscious attention to the arrow. And if you are paying no consicous attention to the gap or the arrow - or anything else - you are by definition - shooting instinctive - I cannot figure out what is so hard to understand about the fact that if you are not paying conscious attention to anything other than what you want to hit - ie: anyone that is shooting aspirin out of the air - or fast moving targets, for example - they are by definition shooting instinctive.

Regarding Hill and the various arrows - it was in a biography that I read about him - I think it was Hunting the Hard Way - but it might have been Tembo - I read a few books about him over the years that I got from the Library on inter-library loan.

Hill was a prodigy - the guy was just amazing - and I would agree with you that even an instinctive shooter would have difficulty being accurate with differing arrows - but somehow he did it - how I do not know, but according to the book I read it was a regular part of his shows to take arrows from audience members and randomly shoot them and that he was accurate with them.

When I brought this up - it was never in defence of "instinctive" shooting - it was to illustrate that a person can shoot an arrow that is not tuned accurately. This ability of his had nothing to do with whether he shot instinctive or with a sight for that matter.


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## scottranderson (Aug 9, 2009)

I shot gap when I was shooting bowhunter compound I found it much better, I could shoot no less then 495 to no higher then 505 out of 560 field/hunter ifaa/nfaa I could never dream to shot those scores instinctive.
10y to 80y marked gap all the way
10 to 40y unmaked instinctive is more equal but gap would still be my choice.
Moving target forget it instinctive all the way.

Another thing is it took me years to build a good gap system. Many people could not be bothed.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

It takes years to get good no matter how you choose to aim - at least barebow with a tradbow


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ferguson is not a gap shooter nor does he teach gap shooting -


I can't say for sure if Byron teaches Gap specifically or not...but I do know he does teach Split Vision by placing a dot below the target so the archer has a reference point to learn their gaps from as they shoot at a specific target from a specific distance.

The fact is....most every archer who aims barebow is gapping to some extent or another. The difference is how the archer uses the gaps they see.



sharpbroadhead said:


> he suggests that as a BEGINNER you use gap shooting so that you don't give up to quickly on the sport -


This sounds confusing. If he suggests Gap shooting for the beginner....my guess is that he probably teaches it in the beginning for some new archers.



sharpbroadhead said:


> And if you are paying no consicous attention to the gap or the arrow - or anything else - you are by definition - shooting instinctive -


True...but archers that set their arrows up so their arrow tips are basically on target when they aim like many of us point a finger at an object are not totally aiming Instinctively. Once an object enters the direct line of sight of an archer...there is no way an archer can consciously ignore it. When an archer is consciously focusing on the target and the arrow point gets closer to being within that direct line of sight...it becomes harder for the conscious mind to block it out...until it becomes impossible once that point enters the archer's direct line of sight.



sharpbroadhead said:


> anyone that is shooting aspirin out of the air - or fast moving targets, for example - they are by definition shooting instinctive.


Most likely...but not in ALL cases. I and some other archers I know can use Gap for some moving targets depending on the circumstance. 



sharpbroadhead said:


> and I would agree with you that even an instinctive shooter would have difficulty being accurate with differing arrows - but somehow he did it - how I do not know,


When an archer knows his bow and his abilities...inside and out...this is very possible. This really isn't that hard to do with a target the size of a shoe box and at a reasonable distance. My guess is that Howard most likely practiced it so that he knew how each arrow and situation needed to be shot.

Ray :shade:


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## 1111 (Feb 11, 2012)

Sorry to have to offer advise when I am just a new member here but I do have a lifetime of experience for what that is worth. I would recommend Byron Ferguson's, become the arrow.
I could go into great length as to what and why but Byron really cant be beat as to his ability and method in my opinion.
Check this book out because I have seen his techniques get more people good faster than most any other to date.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I think Byron's book is very good, but I think that there is more than one way to skin a cat - Jay Kidwell's Instinctive Archery Insights is very good and the Mental Mechanics of Archery - is by far the best book I have ever read explaining the role of the subconscious in archery.

To me the perfect archery book would be a combination of the following books:

Become the Arrow

The Mental Mechanics of Archery

Instinctive Archery Insights

Free Throw (a book written by Dr. Tom Ambery who broke the world free throw record by shooting almost 3000 free throws in a row)

Understanding Winning Archery

With Winning in Mind

and to add a bit of deep thought to the mix - Letters from a Stoic by Senaca would be nice mixed in with it all -


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

As I said I've added 60-70 points on a 300 round just rearranging my technique and equipment to get my point-on near 20yds. My closest competitor Rsarns has done the same and also picked-up ~20 points this year.
None of the local instinctive shots can run with us this year, last year it was give and take. Now on our worst night we are perhaps down 15-20 points on our PB, the results are much more consistent.
When gapping for 3D the same thing has happened. Some equipment and form changes have gotten us both a closer point-on and our consistency has greatly increased.

I should note that indoors and outside when very close to my point-on distance I close one eye. I still focus entirely on what I want to hit, as all gap shooters do, but I define the arrow a little better with one eye closed.

-Grant


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## Greenarrow1 (Jan 17, 2008)

"Ranger B - Byron Ferguson says - and it is in BOLD in his book Become the Arrow and page 33:

Don't become too dependant on gap shooting. Once you have become proficient, immediately begin concentrating more upon the mark and less upon the gap. This will begin your refinement of the clear focus aspect mentioned in the introduction, and this sets you on the road to becoming the arrow

Ferguson is not a gap shooter nor does he teach gap shooting - he suggests that as a BEGINNER you use gap shooting so that you don't give up to quickly on the sport - but as your progress you get to a point where you pay no conscious attention to the arrow. And if you are paying no consicous attention to the gap or the arrow - or anything else - you are by definition - shooting instinctive - I cannot figure out what is so hard to understand about the fact that if you are not paying conscious attention to anything other than what you want to hit - ie: anyone that is shooting aspirin out of the air - or fast moving targets, for example - they are by definition shooting instinctive."

Sharp,
Byron in his video "Become the Arrow" states that he shoots split vision and gives a demonstration how to use split vision as an aiming method.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sharp, I NEVER said I've NEVER seen good instinctive shooters I said I know two good instinctive shooters......You and Steve Mowles but I also said they have won world championships...

Ken, you've beat me every time I've shot against you,you are a good shooter but I don't belevie you are truly an instinctive shooter.I think you know ALWAYS where your arrow is.... And if you're seeing the arrow thats. Ot instinctive..


Dewayne Martin


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sorry meant to say have not won World Championships.

Dewayne


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

golfingguy27:

Do you recognize your thread anymore?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

I look at the target with my left eye and the arrow with my right eye useing both sides of the brain to bring it all together. Is that split vision or what? Instinctive split vision? Must be some name for it and some of the wise ones here can probably explain it. NOT!!!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> golfingguy27:
> 
> Do you recognize your thread anymore? [/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

hmmm - so even though I say that I shoot instinctive - and pay not attention to anything other than the spot - because I shoot well - that means I am not instinctive - I see now why Rick Welch does not bother posting on these forums and why he told me not to bother with it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I look at the target with my left eye and the arrow with my right eye useing both sides of the brain to bring it all together. Is that split vision or what? Instinctive split vision?


In order for it to be Split Vision...an archer must have a secondary spot they consciously place their arrow point on while aiming in order to hit the intended target.

If you're not doing that. You're NOT aiming using Split Vision.

Instinctive Split Vision? Now that's the first time I've heard that one :wink:

In order for an archer to aim Instinctively they have to allow certain aspects of the aiming process to be mediated below the conscious level. If you're not allowing your subconscious/unconscious mind to mediate those...than it's not Instinctive as the term applies to an aiming technique.



FORESTGUMP said:


> Must be some name for it and some of the wise ones here can probably explain it. NOT!!!


Most aiming techniques have a name for them to help explain and describe what exactly they are so they can be taught to other people.

If an archer doesn't know what they are doing or how they are doing it...their most likely not going to be a very good teacher. They don't need to know fancy terminology...they just need to be able to explain it enough to get the point across to their student. Some need more explanation and detail...while others may need less.

Ray :shade:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> I don't belevie you are truly an instinctive shooter.I think you know ALWAYS where your arrow is.... And if you're seeing the arrow thats. not instinctive


Instinctive is not deliberate aiming using a mark, pin, arrow point, etc. Subconscious aiming occurs with everyone, its the amount that determines whether you are instinctive or a deliberate aimer.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Destroyer - you are spot on - even Olympic shooters using sights are told to pay no conscious attention to the sight and focus only on the gold - anyone who is good at any sport is doing the vast majority of it at a subconscious level. There are actually guys on this forum that deny that the subconscious even exists - it is amazing and shocking at the same time.

I could make a much more sound argument that the good gap shooters are really instinctive shooters and just think they are gap shooters - LOL - but these guys claim the opposite towards intinctive shooters.

It is really silly in the end - and if people want to say that I "truly" don't shoot the way I know I do - well - what can you say to that - it is like trying to prove to someone that you are not thinking about robbing a bank when they claim you are thinking about robbing a bank - how do you prove or disprove what you are thinking about?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Destroyer said:


> Instinctive is not deliberate aiming using a mark, pin, arrow point, etc. Subconscious aiming occurs with everyone, its the amount that determines whether you are instinctive or a deliberate aimer.


EXACTLY!

And when an archer places their aiming reference within their direct line of sight to the target...they can not eliminate the conscious mind from being aware of it....which is why shooting 3 Under and placing the arrow tip as close to being on target makes it harder for an archer to aim totally Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## makingscents (Jun 9, 2011)

1111 said:


> I do have a lifetime of experience for what that is worth. I would recommend Byron Ferguson's, become the arrow.
> I could go into great length as to what and why but Byron really cant be beat as to his ability and method in my opinion.
> Check this book out because I have seen his techniques get more people good faster than most any other to date.


Ditto


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, I was just telling you what I think. If I'm wrong then I apologize. Maybe you are the only good "instinctive" shooter in the world, sorry but I will never believe that you don't even have a clue where your arrow is....but if you tell me then I will believe you.

Why do you always compare yourself to Rick welch????


Dewayne


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Take cover! 










If you hold your draw but for a brief moment, you are not shooting as "instinctive" as you might believe you are, and want others to believe you are.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> There are actually guys on this forum that deny that the subconscious even exists


Nothing surprises me about the people on this forum.



BLACK WOLF said:


> can not eliminate the conscious mind from being aware of it


And you know what happens when the conscious and the subconscious fight for control.........


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _And you know what happens when the conscious and the subconscious fight for control........._


You become dizzy and you faint?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Excellent point Destroyer

VAbow - well being that Rick Welch would kick both our butts on the range - you know more than one instinctive shooter who is good. I brought him up not comparing myself to him - but because there are people who claim that he is not instinctive either - even though he says he is.

I don't really care if you think I am a liar or if you are ignorant of what instinctive is - at this point I am tired of beating my head against a wall


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

If we were betting, which I don't. I'd put my money on you tow over Rick right now. The game has changed. He was a great shot at his peak but the face of 3D Trad Archery is quite different now..


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Although simple in theory, instinctive shooting can take awhile to master. Sure there are some that are naturals but most of the time people have to work at it. I define instinctive shooting as looking at what you want to hit... Target acquisition is the most important aspect of this style... Once the bow/arrows are properly tuned and you have your basic form down. Anyway, Stacy Groscup called it reflex shooting. I don't see the bow, arrow or anything but my target. 

Instinctive shooting is a very personal style, since all of us have different vision, hand eye coordination, etc.

My two cents.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Aspirin Buster said:


> Although simple in theory, instinctive shooting can take awhile to master. Sure there are some that are naturals but most of the time people have to work at it. I define instinctive shooting as looking at what you want to hit... Target acquisition is the most important aspect of this style... Once the bow/arrows are properly tuned and you have your basic form down. Anyway, Stacy Groscup called it reflex shooting. I don't see the bow, arrow or anything but my target.
> 
> Instinctive shooting is a very personal style, since all of us have different vision, hand eye coordination, etc.
> 
> My two cents.


When AB talks.....I listen!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

WindWalker said:


> Take cover!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah buddy,here we go.
What about this theory? Maybe a so called gap shooter is not really useing his concious mind to "measure" a gap and aim at a spot somewhere in space other than the spot he intends to hit. But in fact just simply allows his subconcious to remember the sight picture and make adjustments accordingly. Or is that called instinctive? Help,I'm getting dizzy and might faint.:darkbeer:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, I'm not saying Rick could or couldn't kick both of our butts right now. I do now I don't think he's the shot he was 4 years ago..

Rick has done a lot for traditional archey and I'm not going to bash him because I'm sure hes forgotten more about shooting a bow then most will ever know.

I've never called you a liar...


Dewayne


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> You become dizzy and you faint?


No, target panic..........


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Destroyer said:


> No, target panic..........[/QUOTE
> 
> EXACTLY!!!


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

WoW...someone pass the popcorn would ya...

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Destroyer said:


> And you know what happens when the conscious and the subconscious fight for control.........


That depends on the archer.

Sometimes the conscious mind wins and the archer takes conscious control over the shot. Othertimes the archer gives into his subconscious and allows it to do what it was trained to do...or as you previously stated...target panic develops and there is no winner.

The mind is an amazing creation...and the is no one specific outcome that applies to everyone under all circumstances as it applies to shooting a bow and arrow.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Aspirin Buster said:


> Although simple in theory, instinctive shooting can take awhile to master. Sure there are some that are naturals but most of the time people have to work at it. I define instinctive shooting as looking at what you want to hit... Target acquisition is the most important aspect of this style... Once the bow/arrows are properly tuned and you have your basic form down. Anyway, Stacy Groscup called it reflex shooting. I don't see the bow, arrow or anything but my target.
> 
> Instinctive shooting is a very personal style, since all of us have different vision, hand eye coordination, etc.
> 
> My two cents.



Soooo,where are all the people who normally argue that this is not true. Been waiting for an hour now. Very quite!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Soooo,where are all the people who normally argue that this is not true. Been waiting for an hour now. Very quite!


Who argues that this is not true?

What Frank said is true.

A basic definition on Instinctive shooting is looking at what you want to hit....but that can apply to almost any aiming technique. 

Frank goes on to explain it more by sharing that target acquisition is the most important aspect of this style and how Stacy Groscup called it reflex shooting, where an archer doesn't see the bow, arrow or anything but the target.

As a whole...that is basically what Instinctive Aiming is.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Yeah buddy,here we go.
> What about this theory? Maybe a so called gap shooter is not really useing his concious mind to "measure" a gap and aim at a spot somewhere in space other than the spot he intends to hit. But in fact just simply allows his subconcious to remember the sight picture and make adjustments accordingly. Or is that called instinctive? Help,I'm getting dizzy and might faint.:darkbeer:


You seem to be confused about gap and split vision. Gap is where you focus on the target and set a definite gap between it and the target. Split vision is where you aim at a secondary reference with the arrow.
Neither one is related to so called instinctive shooting, which is using an ingrained sight picture that is trained over many repetitions of making similar shots. That part of the reason when some instinctive shots don;t judge yardage and also why they don't do well past their usual maximum; they shoot basically the same sight picture for every shot.
Gap can be shot just as quickly as instinctive and I believe Howard Hill when he states that he always shot gap, even for the ariels.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Gap is where you focus on the target and set a definite gap between it and the target. Split vision is where you aim at a secondary reference with the arrow.


I agree.



grantmac said:


> Neither one is related to so called instinctive shooting, which is using an ingrained sight picture that is trained over many repetitions of making similar shots.


I have to partially disagree. A gap is basically used in all aiming techniques. An archer, who is aiming Instinctively allows the subconsious/unconscious mind to recognize and adjust the gap between the archer's aiming reference/references and the target within the archer's sight picture...if the bow and arrow are in front of the archer and within their sight picture.



grantmac said:


> Gap can be shot just as quickly as instinctive


I'm not sure about...'just as'. I believe Gap can be shot quickly but I really doubt that it can be shot just as quickly...especially when comparing an archer who truly has mastered Instinctive Aiming and shooting fast. A reflex action will almost always be faster than a consciously thought out one.



grantmac said:


> I believe Howard Hill when he states that he always shot gap, even for the ariels.


He stated the he ALWAYS shot Gap???

As far as I know...he definitely shot Split Vision.

Ray :shade:


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I should have added a disclaimer. I am not an advocate that everyone shoot instinctively. In tournaments, the GAP and Point of Aim archers can win tournaments, and at least for me my hunting is limited... instinctive shooting is a close range method of shooting. It's ideal for most whitetail hunting conditions but if you do alot of western state big game hunting where you are stalking game and may have a longer shot I am an advicate of encouraging folks to be able to use a pin or GAP for these longer shots.

I've hit game and targets at longer distances, but don't make a habit of it. I LOVE instinctive shooting and there are times when it is the superior method of shooting but it also has drawbacks and is not ideal in all situations. If an archer can master instinctive and a GAP system or blend them that would probably be ideal... tough to do but ideal.

I have my opininion that Howard Hill had to be able to do this... afterall, Doug Walker told me of seeing Howard Hill shooting an arrow behind a rabbit to make it run and then taking the rabbit with a second shot. I have witnessed a rabbit darting and running and I would think your attention would have to be on the rabbit not the bow or arrow. 

Anyway, whatever method you use have fun and enjoy our great sport.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Aspirin Buster said:


> I should have added a disclaimer. I am not an advocate that everyone shoot instinctively. In tournaments, the GAP and Point of Aim archers can win tournaments, and at least for me my hunting is limited... instinctive shooting is a close range method of shooting. It's ideal for most whitetail hunting conditions but if you do alot of western state big game hunting where you are stalking game and may have a longer shot I am an advicate of encouraging folks to be able to use a pin or GAP for these longer shots.
> 
> I've hit game and targets at longer distances, but don't make a habit of it. I LOVE instinctive shooting and there are times when it is the superior method of shooting but it also has drawbacks and is not ideal in all situations. If an archer can master instinctive and a GAP system or blend them that would probably be ideal... tough to do but ideal.
> 
> ...


You gotta love it when a master at this sport tells it like it is..


Thanks for your input Frank...

Mac


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## Hoyt (Jul 22, 2003)

I shoot recurves, split finger, anchor at the corner of my mouth, then make sure my right eye is centered over the top of my arrow. I then concentrate at the center of my target only seeing my arrow with peripheral vision. I don't use gap, snap shoot or cant bow.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

and suddenly?..it turns into a great thread when Mr. Addington lends his words of wisdom and experience bringing a level of sanity back into the mix! :laugh:

and i'm lov'in it cause of the fact that i can relate..as i'm just now returning to a strong enough physical condition that i can draw, anchor and hold and i'm finding here in this thread that i'm currently using a combination of split and instinctive with each and evey practice shot i take as now that i clearly understand split?..that's what i'm using as i draw and anchor..but once i'm solidly anchored?.the split goes away and i allow the instinctive to take over where i then see nothing but the spot..let the subconscious make the final adjustments and once it "feels right"?..the last thing that goes through my conscious mind is to execute a clean release..and done deal..some may disagree that i'm shooting instinctively due to the fact that i'm holding for a moment...but i find for me it is necessary to reassure i'm accomplishing consistant proper form with a repeatable length of draw and solid anchor and anything less would be...well?..less...but imho?..i begin the draw and anchor split and finish off the shot instinctively and?..

i'm finding this is nothing new to me..as a fingers, pin & peep compound shooter for decades i usta wonder why when i estimated a 3D target for 45yds my conscious mind would split my 40 & 50 pins..right in the middle..but what my subconscious mind knew was that 45yds was actually a little south of "middle" and at the last moment just before release my bowarm would raise a tad and my conscious mind would think i just blew the shot but then Bingo!..10 ring!..and that usta blow my mind for years as to why..now i know.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Frank,
Thanks for the contribution here. I have always used a blend as you state. It makes the most sense to me. It is interesting to me how many takes sides on this site. It's either this way or no way type of thinking that I find limiting. Just because someone uses some method does not mean it is the only method out there or the best application. It's up to you to find what works best for you. With that in mind, I feel using the Gap method to be the most accurate, why, it's what sight uses use. If you shoot a bow with a sight aren't you using the pin to help you set the gap right ? The relation to arrow tip to bullseye changes as you change pins to the yardage right. So if you knew the gap settings you wouldn't need the pin.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LongStick64 said:


> If you shoot a bow with a sight aren't you using the pin to help you set the gap right ?
> 
> Usually when setting a pin sight....the archer doesn't set it so there's a gap between the pin and the target...unless the target's distance ends up being between 2 distances. Most archers set their pins at 20, 30, 40 & 50 or 10, 15, 20, 25 for examples. If a target's distance falls between 20 & 30yrds. than there is going to be a gap. The faster the arrow the smaller the gap.
> 
> So if you knew the gap settings you wouldn't need the pin.


Correct...if you know the distance between arrow tip and target within your sight picture...you really don't need a sight pin.

A sight pin is generally more accurate because it can be set right on the target or really close. Using the arrow tip is generally less accurate because it is further away from the target and therefore creates more deviation of error. It's like shooting a target set at 60yrds with a 20yrds. pin or shooting at 20yrds. target with a pin set for 60yrds. This is also some of the reason why archers end up shooting 3 Under and changing achor points to get the arrow tip closer to being on target. It makes the aiming process easier.

Ray :shade:


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Stacy Groscup and I used to both joke that we weren't smart enough to learn any other method.. I am 100% instinctive but as I said I rarely encourage someone to learn just that method. I have watched trophy game walk away because I was just out of my range... You have to be willing to accept your limitations. In my mind, instinctive shooting is the very best close range method.. But I get out of my comfort zone past say thirty yards.

Fred Eichler's wife Michele once saw me do the luckiest shot of my career at the Union Grove,NC Bowhunter Jamboree in 1988 or so. I had a heckler and it was outside. They had a long distance deer target set up at maybe 80-90 yards away from where I was doing my show. He kept yelling "shoot the deer"... And in my shows I usually shoot 21 feet. Back then I did do a few stationary targets at about 20 yards but that was it. The guy kept interrupting my show so to get him to be still I decided to try one shot at the 3-D deer target way down there. The arrow went up, floated down range and nailed a perfect shot on the 3-d target. That audience couldn't believe it. 

Neither could I. It was a lucky shot and I knew it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> You seem to be confused about gap and split vision. Gap is where you focus on the target and set a definite gap between it and the target. Split vision is where you aim at a secondary reference with the arrow.
> Neither one is related to so called instinctive shooting, which is using an ingrained sight picture that is trained over many repetitions of making similar shots. That part of the reason when some instinctive shots don;t judge yardage and also why they don't do well past their usual maximum; they shoot basically the same sight picture for every shot.
> Gap can be shot just as quickly as instinctive and I believe Howard Hill when he states that he always shot gap, even for the ariels.
> 
> -Grant


Really? That's interesting.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

aint it forest :confused3:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> and suddenly?..it turns into a great thread when Mr. Addington lends his words of wisdom and experience bringing a level of sanity back into the mix! :laugh:
> 
> and i'm lov'in it cause of the fact that i can relate..as i'm just now returning to a strong enough physical condition that i can draw, anchor and hold and i'm finding here in this thread that i'm currently using a combination of split and instinctive with each and evey practice shot i take as now that i clearly understand split?..that's what i'm using as i draw and anchor..but once i'm solidly anchored?.the split goes away and i allow the instinctive to take over where i then see nothing but the spot..let the subconscious make the final adjustments and once it "feels right"?..the last thing that goes through my conscious mind is to execute a clean release..and done deal..some may disagree that i'm shooting instinctively due to the fact that i'm holding for a moment...but i find for me it is necessary to reassure i'm accomplishing consistant proper form with a repeatable length of draw and solid anchor and anything less would be...well?..less...but imho?..i begin the draw and anchor split and finish off the shot instinctively and?..
> 
> i'm finding this is nothing new to me..as a fingers, pin & peep compound shooter for decades i usta wonder why when i estimated a 3D target for 45yds my conscious mind would split my 40 & 50 pins..right in the middle..but what my subconscious mind knew was that 45yds was actually a little south of "middle" and at the last moment just before release my bowarm would raise a tad and my conscious mind would think i just blew the shot but then Bingo!..10 ring!..and that usta blow my mind for years as to why..now i know.


That's because you get it. Now if you can just stop fighting back and shoot.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> aint it forest :confused3:


Focus on the target and set a gap between it and the target???? And I'm confused.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Aspirin Buster said:


> Stacy Groscup and I used to both joke that we weren't smart enough to learn any other method.. I am 100% instinctive but as I said I rarely encourage someone to learn just that method. I have watched trophy game walk away because I was just out of my range... You have to be willing to accept your limitations. In my mind, instinctive shooting is the very best close range method.. But I get out of my comfort zone past say thirty yards.
> 
> Fred Eichler's wife Michele once saw me do the luckiest shot of my career at the Union Grove,NC Bowhunter Jamboree in 1988 or so. I had a heckler and it was outside. They had a long distance deer target set up at maybe 80-90 yards away from where I was doing my show. He kept yelling "shoot the deer"... And in my shows I usually shoot 21 feet. Back then I did do a few stationary targets at about 20 yards but that was it. The guy kept interrupting my show so to get him to be still I decided to try one shot at the 3-D deer target way down there. The arrow went up, floated down range and nailed a perfect shot on the 3-d target.  That audience couldn't believe it.
> 
> Neither could I. It was a lucky shot and I knew it.


Probably most of us would think it was a lucky shot but your brain knew that you could do it and the desire to make it happen was very strong.


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## Pikkuhannu (Apr 3, 2009)

I guess i use instinctive split vision :tongue:
With longbow i draw at corner of mouth, keep it half of second and let go. I use split fingers.
When i use Korean bow, i draw on my ear, keep it second and let go. I use thumbring.

Aiming take place when i draw so i can just let arrow go when i reach anchor. I focus on target, arrow and bow is blurry on my sight.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Pikkuhannu said:


> I guess i use instinctive split vision :tongue:
> With longbow i draw at corner of mouth, keep it half of second and let go. I use split fingers.
> When i use Korean bow, i draw on my ear, keep it second and let go. I use thumbring.
> 
> Aiming take place when i draw so i can just let arrow go when i reach anchor. I focus on target, arrow and bow is blurry on my sight.


I think we all do that among other things and call the process by different names. Gapping,split vision,instinctive etc etc. Hence all the arguing over what to name a simple act.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Pikkuhannu - if you are just concentrating on your spot and not thinking about distance or consciously holding the bow at a certain point for certain distances - you are shooting instinctive - I think this idea of "split vision" - was just a phrase that Hill used to describe what actually amounts to instinctive shooting - likely because the term "instinctive" was not even used in his day. Bottom line - if your aiming is done at a subconscious level without the aid of sights (you can aim with sights at a subconscious level too) - it is insinctive. 

I would submit - all kidding aside - that most - if not all of the guys that shoot well and claim to be "gap shooters" - really are aiming at a subconscious level - anyone who is good at anything has to be doing the majority of it at a subconscious level.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Pikkuhannu - if you are just concentrating on your spot and not thinking about distance or consciously holding the bow at a certain point for certain distances - you are shooting instinctive - I think this idea of "split vision" - was just a phrase that Hill used to describe what actually amounts to instinctive shooting - likely because the term "instinctive" was not even used in his day. Bottom line - if your aiming is done at a subconscious level without the aid of sights (you can aim with sights at a subconscious level too) - it is insinctive.
> 
> I would submit - all kidding aside - that most - if not all of the guys that shoot well and claim to be "gap shooters" - really are aiming at a subconscious level - anyone who is good at anything has to be doing the majority of it at a subconscious level.


I would bet that if shooting at an animal(or anything for that matter)that none of them are looking at some spot on the ground in that last critical second. If so I would name it "poke and hope".
That ,my friend,is when they go full auto and look at where they want the arrow to go. Fortunately their brain can use that opportunity to adjust for their mistake. It's called instinctive at that point.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I think this idea of "split vision" - was just a phrase that Hill used to describe what actually amounts to instinctive shooting -


I don't know where you get some of your information. Some of the stuff you come up with I think you just make it up as you go.

Howard Hill specifically described an aiming technique called Split Vision that was NOT meant in any shape or form to describe Instinctive shooting. All anyone needs to do is do a little...and I mean a little research into Split Vision and Howard Hill and they will know that there is a difference between what Howard describes as Split Vision and what Instinctive aiming is.



sharpbroadhead said:


> I would submit - all kidding aside - that most - if not all of the guys that shoot well and claim to be "gap shooters" - really are aiming at a subconscious level -


Yes...that it is true...BUT there is a difference between aiming TOTALLY Instinctively and Gap Aiming where the archer is aware of the gap but does not know what the exact size of the gap needs to be for a specific distance.

This is often where the confusion exists.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

The problem with all of this....is what some are describing what they are really doing...In that they are giving a part of their brain that has absolutely no reasoning power..the ability to reason..because some coach or therapist has elected to say so...

The simplest way to describe instinctual shooting.....is non-conscious aiming...where you really aren't making any conscious effort to aim or giving any conscious thought about doing so.....your simply concentrating on a spot and letting your memory of previous shots of how to execute that shot to take place..but one of the reasons they don't want to say this is because they are trying to say they don't aim...when in reality...they are..

Another reason this phrase ( non-conscious aiming ) is not used..is because some misguided fools have elected to take what was and was rightly so named..which BTW a phrase that in it's very meaning explains what it really is...( instinctive) ie...as in like a instinct...then apply some fuzzy logic to it that tries to change it's meaning..as in ie..a instinct..Also...it doesn't sound as good...or by calling it unconscious aiming..some are trying to relate it to a every day word about being either knocked out or asleep.. ( Word Association )

Since most here agree we don't consciously think about aiming..then some here in their fuzzy logic insist it has to be below conscious thought..and it isn't below anything..it is taking place right beside our conscious thoughts along the same neural pathways we have already established in our brains but at a faster speed since it is using multiple parts of the brain..not just were memories are normally stored..It's a higher level of activity..not a lower one that is constant like breathing..There is nothing SUB in it at all...


The subconscious does not reason...it does no aiming..or estimating..or any other action like this....it allows us to associate memories...hell the word is not even used amongst most neurologist and scientist because of this other group of people attributing these actions to it..Your conscious mind does this..it is what does all of our reasoning.....slowly at first...not as accurate at first...but with repetition...increasingly faster and faster...and with more accuracy *over time.*.The subconscious is nothing more than a collection of memories...past events..and our conscious brain which does all of the reasoning utilizes these memories in our day to day lives..and allows us to shoot...some better than others..just as with any sport today..It uses our innate instincts and our stored memories to do this ...This is also why when we learn bad habits..that have been reinforced by repetition over time we continue to do them..even when we know better...We use our memories to shoot..and if a bad habit is the strongest memory of how we shoot..then we continue using it..and the only way to break that habit..is to store more memories of doing it the correct way..and repeat doing over and over until the correct way is the strongest memory we have..but even then..we can go back to bad habits..because those memories are still there...

Scientist and neurologist know full well through using PET Scans..EEG scans..and other methods..that how the best in the sport fields and others fields are not using a lower function of their brain..but a higher function to be able to have the reflexes to do these things extremely well..Stacy Gossip was quite correct in calling reflex shooting...because in essence it really is just that..because we can condition our reflexes...but...it really is much more than that too...The great shots like the "Aspirin Buster"..Bryon Ferguson..Stacy Gossip..Howard Hill Fred Bear..and all those here that make incredible shots seem easy are doing the same thing..

One other thing....... "Sharp"...they knew damn well back then what the word meant..they just used it in it's proper context..it's only been in the last 30 years that some folks have been trying to change it's actual meaning..and..being used wrong by many people who don't fully understand how the brain actually works ...and... over time..has allowed it to become a common place misused word..Modern science/medicine has dispelled lots of these misconceptions...and this is one of them..wither you choose to ignore reality or not.There certainly is a sub-conscious...but it does nothing as you describe it..or what any new-age theorist describes it..


Look...it doesn't matter how we aim...only that we hit our mark..All methods work...some work well for others...Use the gifts our creator gave us at birth..and learn to enjoy them....and...be safe and have fun doing it..Life is too short for all of this bickering..

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

bet those venison munching indians didnt need neurological scans before they went hunting...wonder if thay sat around those small campfires in the teepees discussing such...would've loved to have been a fly on the teepee wall to hear stuff like..

Two Toungues:So tell me Running Deer...do you aim when you shoot?....

As the Cheif whacks Two Toungues across the back of the head with the peace pipe scolding him..

"Me thinks you think too much!..explains why you miss deer today and we go hungry..now pack a bowl and go get us dinner!"

:laugh:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL Jinkster - bet they didn't because they aimed at a subconscious level - so there was nothing to discuss - it would be like discussing how we walk or run - nothing to discuss - we just do it. There is an excellent book on this subject called The Mental Mechanics of Archery - it really delves into the role of the subconscious when shooting a bow. With most any activity we do - the subconscious does well over 90% of it.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL Jinkster - bet they didn't because they aimed at a subconscious level - so there was nothing to discuss - it would be like discussing how we walk or run - nothing to discuss - we just do it. There is an excellent book on this subject called The Mental Mechanics of Archery - it really delves into the role of the subconscious when shooting a bow. With most any activity we do - the subconscious does well over 90% of it.


WoW...how people can be so gullible is totally beyond description...



> This book was written after talking with hundreds of archers suffering from target panic and other concentration problems.


 lol...lol...lol...when I read this on their home page...I thought...the patients are running the nut house I think.......but hey...if it works and you want to believe it..go for it...as long as it helps...it isn't going to hurt...:wink:

But...why not utilize those that actually know something about what we use..instead of those that think they know..? 

Bill...don't be fooled by people who know absolutely nothing about the real mechanics of the brain..Talk to those..and read what those folks have to say..This is straight from Wikapedia..and is the easiest to find if your wanting to search out some good links to back up what is being said with real facts..



> The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as a definition-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings.


The reason they say this..is because of all of those like Ken and the rest..that want to believe they use their subconscious for doing what their conscious does..They can not accept this fact...even when it has been proved medically..They have gotten so used to saying it..for them to accept the fact they are wrong..is something they can't bring themselves to do..



> _The idea of the "subconscious" as a powerful or potent agency has allowed the term to become prominent in the *New Age and self-help literature,*_, in which investigating or controlling its *supposed knowledge or power *is seen as advantageous. In the New Age community, techniques such as auto suggestion and affirmations are believed to harness the power of the subconscious to influence a person's life and real-world outcomes, even curing sickness. Skeptical Inquirer magazine criticized the lack of falsifiability and testability of these claims.[1] Physicist Ali Alousi, for instance, criticized it as unmeasurable and questioned the likelihood that thoughts can affect anything outside the head.[2] In addition, critics have asserted that the evidence provided is usually anecdotal and that, because of the self-selecting nature of the positive reports, as well as the subjective nature of any results, these reports are susceptible to confirmation bias and selection bias.[3]


Now...when I stated this to Ken before...It's not Rocket Science...It's not Voodoo...It's not Magic...he just couldn't resist the bait..and took what I said completely out of context as he always does..This is where he is coming up with some of his weird statements ...Believe what you want..use what you want..that is all that matters..


Mac


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Here is an excellent commentary on instinctive shooting.



> _"I have since come to view “instinctive shooting” as a cancer of archery that is likely to lead to small problems which grow into major issues." -_ *H. Lee Robinson (Protégé Longbows)*


LINK:  Why I am no longer an "Instinctive Shooter."


LINK: Protégé Longbows


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

WindWalker said:


> Here is an excellent commentary on instinctive shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


uhmmmm...

_"Although I make my professional living as a science teacher, *I have been involved with traditional archery since 1996* and my family has enjoyed traditional archery for many years as well. More recently, with the help of Gary Sentman, *I have now become a professional bowyer*.."_

this "H. Lee Robinson"?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The issue people are over looking or confusing...is that while a person is conscious and doing something with purpose...such as aiming a bow and arrow...the conscious mind is always the first in command. In other words...the conscious mind basically dictates how the person responds to the situation.

What the conscious mind sees can trigger reactions based on the visual stimulis by either causeing a reflex action, which the subsconsious/unconscious has basically been allowed to control or the conscious mind begins to analyze the situation and actively is involved in most of the aspects with aiming a bow and arrow.

When someone says that the conscious mind is in control...and another person says the subconscious/unconscious mind is in control...they are BOTH correct depending on the specific task being discussed.

If people would make more of an effort to try and understand one another...rather than trying to force their views and opinions on others...maybe there would be a better understanding of each other.

Ray :shade:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _this "H. Lee Robinson"?
> _


Yep! Appears this is also him.

LINK: http://www.chimerakennels.com/aboutchimerakennels.htm


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Well all I can say is y'all have way to much time on your hands. Perhaps you guys should spent this much time on something productive like curing cancer!
You can go way back to 1996 when the LW started and every few days on that site and all the other so called Trad sights someone brings this up. Who cares!!! Instead of wasting brain cells debating such an asinine topic just go out and shoot your bows. No matter how you want to shoot you will improve a lot more by shooting than typing. If you really want to get better put a sight on the bow,learn proper form and get a qualified coach to help you.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Now I feel old... I looked at the article Windwalker posted a link for. If the author started shooting traditional archery in 1996, I had already been shooting instinctively 29 years. Wow... 

The instinctive, gap, point of aim debate has been going on for years. There are pros and cons to each style. My advice is to use what works for you.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

:happy1:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ignorance knows no bounds - but those who are willfully ignorant (dumb on purpose) take the cake


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ignorance knows no bounds - but those who are willfully ignorant (dumb on purpose) take the cake


Another perfect example of someone not making much effort in trying to understand somone else's different point of view...because they're so focused on trying to shove their opinions down everybodie's throat while strugling to prove how right they are. :thumbs_do :sad:

Ray :shade:


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

MAC 11700 said:


> The subconscious does not reason...it does no aiming..or estimating..or any other action like this....it allows us to associate memories.


So should we say 'associate memory shooting' or can we still use subconscious so everybody knows what we are talking about?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ignorance knows no bounds - but those who are willfully ignorant (dumb on purpose) take the cake


The irony of YOU of all people making that statement is delicious.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

A little more of this and I should at least understand how and why the human brain works.
What I will not understand is how some of the posters who are well educated about such complicated things still cannot spell or make very good sentences that make sense. The rest of us should not expect these complicated folks to understand simple things like arra flingin.:wink:
Seriously,it usually seems to me that the people who are doing all the arm wrestling and going to great lengths to try and explain to the rest of us, JUST DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.
Here's a tip guys. It's really pretty simple if you can find a way to stop complicating it in your own mind. Make a concious decision where you want the arrow to go. No need to think about anything else right now.Save that for later while you are doing brain surgery or something. Look to see if there is a fly on that spot you chose. Focus your eyes and thoughts on the fly. Now,draw the bow and kill the nasty little *******.

It will be easy to tell by the replies who gets it and who is in the dark.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

yep - that is me - dumb on purpose for accepting the fact that our subconscious brain exists and that it controls almost every aspect of the shot - I am just as dumb as numerous Olympic archery coaches, and numerous other sports coaches and experts, all of whom teach their students to surrender nearly all of what they do to the subconscious and not to interefere with it by conscious adjusments and thoughts.

Like I said - for those who are not willfully ignorant or at such a point in archery that they think the know everything there is to know - I suggest you obtain and read - The Mental Mechanics of Archery - this book is excellent on this subject.

If you are an instinctive shot and want to understand how it is that you are getting the arrow where it is going - and how to keep doing it shot after shot - read The Mental Mechanics of Archery - http://www.centervision.com/1881234029.html


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The subconscious mind is not something magical, though it is mysterious - and there are some fun things you can do to see just how it works or has worked in everyday life. Ever drive home and not remember the trip? Ever run up some steps and then start to consciously think about the steps you are taking? - what happens when you "think" about those steps?

The subconscious brain does so many things - and so much of it at one time it is impossible to even quantify. It is a filter - ever notice that when you buy a new car - suddenly you see that same model nearly everywhere and almsot everytime you are on the road. Do you think that suddenly all these cars were bought on the same day you bought yours? They were there before you bought your car - but you had no reason to take notice of them - your subconscious mind saw those cars - but did not bring them to the attention of your conscious because you concious mind had no interest in them - but after you have bought a new car - your conscious mind is doing a lot of thinking about that car - suddenly - your subconscious is now cued to that car - and it is no longer filtering it away - it is bringing it to the forefront.

When you are driving - do you consciously think about keeping the car in the center of the road - if an animal runs in front of you - do you concsciously think about hitting the brakes? If not - you are certainly not doing it when you are unconscious - so you are doing it at a SUBconscious level.

When you throw a ball - do you consciously calculate distance, speed, windage, elevation, etc.... - Those calculations are being made - and if you are not doing it at a conscious level - how are you doing it? You are certainly not doing it when you are unconscious - you are doing it at a SUBconscious level.

we use our subconscious all the time for nearly everything we do.

We can only consciously think and do a few things at a time - - actually - one thing - but since our brain works so fast - we can appear to consciously do more than one thing at time - but in reality we are just jumping between a few things very rapidly.

You can easily test this if you doubt it - get a book you have never read and try to read a page and have a conversation with your wife at the same time - see if you can comprehend both the conversation and the book at the same time? You cannot - either you will fully comprehend one or the other - or you will only retain parts of each.

Now think about how many times you have driven a car and held a conversation with someone - or were so intently listening to the radio that you don't even remember the ride home from work

Don't be decieved into thinking that this is magic - it is not - it is the way our Creator designed our brains - mysterious yes - magic - nope.

Anyhow - read that book - it is awesome and you will earn much about yourself and your shooting


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Good post OSB - no name calling or meanness - just your opinion stated. Let's discuss your thoughts on using this mind ability for tournament archery. Let's say that you can learn to turn your archery shot over to this. Is it reliable enough for stress on the line at say the Hunter Challenge 32-man shootdown or on the line at indoor nationals? What I mean is do you think you can get to the point that you can turn it on very easily and when the nerves are really bad and the stakes are high can you keep your conscious mind from interfering? Does it become more difficult to surrender to the shot?

I ask this because it seems that judgement becomes very difficult in high stress situations. ie. the guys that don't pick a spot on the deer - they just shoot at 'deer'. A aiming technique seems to help with the deer because they have to put their point some place. In the tournament shoot you have a crutch "system" so when you aren't thinking straight due to stress you can just apply the system and execute the shot and usually be pretty darn close even if the shot is executed a little fast. That is what I see most - shots executed too quickly under stress. I realize you may feel that you have learned to do this but you've had more time on the line to practice under stress. How about the average guy?


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Aspirin Buster said:


> Now I feel old... I looked at the article Windwalker posted a link for. If the author started shooting traditional archery in 1996, I had already been shooting instinctively 29 years. Wow...
> 
> The instinctive, gap, point of aim debate has been going on for years. There are pros and cons to each style. My advice is to use what works for you.


Frank, I've been shooting a while too, Wouldn't it be nice if our experience left us feeling something other than just old? or at least give us the wisdom to stay away from threads like this.... this debate will go one for eternity, but instead of losing.... everyone wins.....because when it comes down to it it's about individual choice of what style each of us determine is best for ourselves, and if it's best for us , well then why not others too.....and the fire is stoked for another lively debate.......it's not a bad thing, but wars have been started for less.......who really cares how, or why another shoots a certain way?, it's curiosity really , we're either scared or intrigued by methods different than our own, they all work or we humans would have been dust long ago, but wait I've stepped into the area of wisdom here, and there is no room for wisdom in archery.......archery is one of the few endeavors in our life where we can spend our lives learning, doing, and helping and all we get is old............


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ranger - I finished 3rd at the 32 Man hunter challenge last year and the year before I made a mistake and shot the wrong target - or I would have finished at least 3rd - aiiming at a subconscious level.

Ranger - I firmly believe that even you as a gap shooter are likely shooting your best when your concentration is focused soley on the spot and your subconscious is doing the "gapping".

I believe that no matter what sport we are in - if we are good at it - the majority of our actions in that sport are done at a subconscious level.

In archery - I think that the difference between a good instinctive shooter and a good gap shooter is basically in how they learned to shoot - but not so much how they are shooting. You can learn how to do something but after a while it can become a subconscious act - or instinctive.

Examples of this are typing - you may learn how to type, and practice at a conscious level typing - but eventually - the subconscious takes over and that is when you type the fastes and most accurate - when it becomes "2nd nature" - when all you do is want to do it and it is done. I never once in typing this post thought about what keys I was hitting - I just did it - no different than walking or talking.

Another example is driving a car or riding a bike - you may do some of it at a conscious level to begin with - but eventually the automobile or the bicycle become an extention of yourself - and you just do it without any conscious thought at all (or very little).

The same thing with archery - the bow becomes an extention of self for those who are good at it - there is no or little thought to the mechanics of the shot or even the aim when one is good with a bow - that is why they make it look easy - it is because they have reached a level where they are shooting almost completely at a subconscious level.

To be honest - I cannot undestand for the life of me how this is such a debate - we all do things like I used as examples above all the time - but suddenly with archery - it is as if everything is different - it's not.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have never heard anyhone say that someone is "cheating" because they used a conscious aiming method - other than "string walking" - and that is only if someone is using this method when it is not allowed - or in such a way that is not allowed - and in those cases it is cheating. In fact - it seems to me, from the posts in these forums and all the guys you all say gap shoot - that the majority of shooters at tournaments gap shoot - so I don't know why they would call it cheating.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ranger - I firmly believe that even you as a gap shooter are likely shooting your best when your concentration is focused soley on the spot and your subconscious is doing the "gapping".
> 
> I believe that no matter what sport we are in - if we are good at it - the majority of our actions in that sport are done at a subconscious level.


I agree with you. BUT, I don't think the debate is about instinctive vs. another style of aiming. The debate is about the brain, how it works, and the definition of an instinct. That is what the debate was on LW before it degraded to the gutter. I think MAC and others are arguing what is going on in the brain, what it is actually seeing, and whether that is instinctive or not. I don't think it matters all that much semantically. I think we agree that even Jay Barrs said he was shooting subconsciously and he was using a sight. The question is - what is subconscious? LOL


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The subconscious mind is not something magical, though it is mysterious - and there are some fun things you can do to see just how it works or has worked in everyday life. Ever drive home and not remember the trip? Ever run up some steps and then start to consciously think about the steps you are taking? - what happens when you "think" about those steps?
> 
> The subconscious brain does so many things - and so much of it at one time it is impossible to even quantify. It is a filter - ever notice that when you buy a new car - suddenly you see that same model nearly everywhere and almsot everytime you are on the road. Do you think that suddenly all these cars were bought on the same day you bought yours? They were there before you bought your car - but you had no reason to take notice of them - your subconscious mind saw those cars - but did not bring them to the attention of your conscious because you concious mind had no interest in them - but after you have bought a new car - your conscious mind is doing a lot of thinking about that car - suddenly - your subconscious is now cued to that car - and it is no longer filtering it away - it is bringing it to the forefront.
> 
> ...



Your right Ken...no one as far as I know has ever said the brain was magical...but only you have implied others have..in your rush to take what has been said out of context.

Everything you have mention is a direct action of the conscious brain...and what we can and can't focus on. It's not a subconscious action..and if you think all people are like this..well...you just haven't been around enough normal people..

Let's take you baseball statement...shall we...and break it down a little..

If we are throwing a ball..for the first time..now think about this..how well is it usually done ?...Very badly in almost every case......Over time..we normal humans..learn from what we do..We store memories of what we do..so..from this point on throwing a ball becomes easier for most if they have the physical aptitude to do so..We learn how much force to use...how to hold it..and if we are throwing it under handed..or over handed..We learn where to release the ball in order to get it to where we want it to go...Think about this...When we go to throw a ball..we are using memories..and we have made a conscious decision to do so..so our conscious brain sets our bodies into motion by sending electrical impulses to our muscles to move in the exact way we have stored as memories..This is where the term muscle memory comes from..

Now..if we become good enough..we can throw that ball to where we want it to go..and with good practice..continue learning how to manipulate that ball for different speeds..and moving it where ever we want..Can it become instinctual..yes...overtime...it certainly may indeed become instinctual...but if you meaning of the word instinctual is referring to the subconscious then no..it can not..because it has nothing to do with the subconscious part of the brain...when we are awake and utilizing our past memories...and all of the various input we get from the environment..and that is the key to all of this...


Ranger...

What is instinctual...to answer this..we must look at what the word is derived from...and it's definition.

in·stinct (nstngkt)
n.
1. An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli.
2. A powerful motivation or impulse.
3. A complex of *unlearned responses* characteristic of a species.

This is real important...unlearned responses...

The word instinctual...is a adjective of this word..and it's true meaning..so it is likened to it...It is not a different physical part..it has no region of the brain it emanates from...It is one in the same..

As long as we are awake..and there is nothing interfering with it..the brain is receiving stimuli..and it is being processed by the conscious..even if we are not aware of it taking place..The brain is not a 1 thing only machine..that can only process 1 thing at a time..Medical science knows this for a fact..and is why they call the human brain the worlds greatest super computer..

Ken...you talk about driving a car...and a deer running out into the road..what part of the brain do we use..simple...the conscious part of the brain..because if we did not receive any input..from our vision..our ears..from our touch..we would simply be oblivious to the deer...but if we react..it is from our learned danger induced reflexes that go into action..not to be confused by your continual misuse of the word subconscious..Adrenalin is being manufactured..and induced into our bodies..our heart rates are increased..our sensory perception is increased...This is not a subconscious action...but a conscious one..because the brain is functioning at a higher speed than normal.. 

Ask yourself something..or better yet..ask any doctor that isn't a theorist..and trying to describe what he thinks...instead of what is known...Where in the brain is the subconscious located ? If you can attribute anything to a subconscious...then it must be attributed to a conscious..therefore..it is the same thing..*but in varying degrees of amounts..It is not separate...it is one in the same..
*

You can not turn shooting a bow over to the subconscious..you can only vary the amount of stimuli you think about..but..the brain still receives it..and processes it..unless there is a physical or chemical impairment..

It would be so much simpler if folks would just use correct terminology in describing what they are doing...instead of embellishing it..We can just as easily say..we shoot instinctual because we aren't thinking about shooting..we are just concentrating on the spot and letting the arrow go..but Ken here..insist by his description of what he is doing..that he actually turns over his shooting to a part of the brain..that really doesn't have a physical place it emanates from ...It's his terminology..and those who choose to believe in theory..not physical science..

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MAC 11700 said:


> As long as we are awake..and there is nothing interfering with it..the brain is receiving stimuli..and it is being processed by the conscious..even if we are *not aware *of it taking place.


So if we are not consciously aware of doing something...don't you believe that means that we are doing something below the conscious level of awareness?

If we are doing something below the conscious level of awareness...than its done at a subconscious or unconcious level of awareness...even though the conscious mind is what triggers the muscle/motor memory into use.

The key words to take into consideration are 'aware' and 'awareness'.

Ray :shade:


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Time to move on.


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