# Can some people not paper tune



## Darrel (Nov 9, 2004)

I had a similar problem. We shortened the draw length and the tear went away. The too long of draw was creating torque.

Darrel


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

If i was torqueing which i don't think i am wouldn't it show up somewhere else not just here. Every so often i look at the idler and cam at full draw and anchored ready to shoot and every thing looks in line.


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

im the reverse I can paper tune bare shaft perfect holes !! I JUST SHOOT LIKE CRAP  bow works fine !


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

1 BB, it's possible your arrows are underspined, but to give any educated info you need to list your setup. What rest you using. TM Hunter style, maybe your spring pressure is too much.


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## Smoke (Feb 4, 2003)

Yes, given the right set-up and the right archer you can have a combination that will result in it being impossible to get "paper tuned". I occasionally run into a set-up that shoots extremely well but won't shoot a bullet hole. 

Assuming their is no fletching contact it's often due to one of three factors: Archer induced torque, a weak spined arrow, nock travel. I've seen some set-ups shoot extremely well but tear up to a 2" tear. (shrug) 

Personally it drives me nuts and I do not have complete confidence in my set-up if it will not shoot a bullet hole through paper and bareshaft tune as part of the tuning process. In fact I will only live with this type of problem in a pinch and only for a very short period of time. But that's me. Plenty of others feel differently and shoot extremely well.


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## zmcgill (Jan 15, 2005)

I had similar problems, what type of a rest are you using? what size of arrows? what bow,poundage, and draw length? Try a different type of arrow rest if possible (I prefer spring steel). I had problems with a drop away rest. The prong style and spring steel worked better for me.

ZMc


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

hey thanks for help ,I'm on call this week and got called out right after posted this just got back to responses , as far as set-up, 82# Bowtech Liberty 29 in. draw Terminator Hunter Selects 6075 125 gr. tips Blazer vanes (right now) 27 1/2 inch arrow , new cobra fallaway with the big wings cut off about size of original trophy taker launcher pretty sure of no contact but gonna get lipstick or something tommorrow to make sure.


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*Now U Know!*

Now you know why you read all the post of the frustated paper tuners. It means nothing. Some swear by it and more power to'em. If you tune for paper then all your settings will change when you group tune.
If your walk back plumb bob is right on the string your center shot is perfect.
Move the nock or limb tune to get nice tight groups and forget paper.
The only paper your arrow tips should pass thru is a 122 cm face @ 90mtr. (or maybe a vegas face @ 18) LOL! 
And the only bullet hole you should see is in the rib cage of a Elk @ 300yds.
Really though check the pressure on your rest. It might be kicking the arrow up. If it is a twin cam creep tune it.
Dave!


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## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Every now and then you get that from the above reasons and sometimes from something else. One question, do broadheads hit with fieldpoints? If they do then the heck with it and enjoy shooting it, not working on it. Startin to remind me of a '64 Panhead I had  !


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## xring_assassin (Jan 1, 2005)

*I don't care much for paper myself.*

Persnally I've never had it carry much weight with me. What I do (as it made sense when I came up with the idea) is use a WIDE 2 blade broadhead of same weight as my field points. (well two actually...and two arrows) I align one broadhead on an arrow so it sits perfectly vertical, the other on another arrow perfectly horizontal while sitting on the bowstring. I figured these act as a "rudders" and if anything was out up or down, the one with the big wide blade laying horizontal would point it out in a hurry, left to right, the vertical one would. I've been doing this with all my bows for years now, and it seems to work GREAT for me. In the end I have broadheads flying right where field points do, and as of yet, with my long 30.5" draw length, I have YET to see a single one of my bows shoot anything looking like a bullet hole trying to paper tune. And in case some silly person thinks I am shooting two arrows at once....I mean I shoot with one AT A TIME!!! I'd figure out rest postion left/right, then grab the horizontal oriented bladed arrow, and go for up/down. Might be low tech - but I like it. In the end all I really care is the dang broadheads fly where the field points do. Am I wrong or would I be mistaken to say "if broadheads fly right - anything will." ??
My opinion - paper sucks. HAHAHA
John


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

You might be interested in my recent thread "So you think paper tuning works?". I have spent an average of an hour a day for the last 5 years paper tuning in my basement. I now believe paper tuning is a valuable starting point in bow tuning. Its most valuable contribution is in perfecting form- an hour a day shooting a blank bale really helps :teeth: Ask yourself why arrows have fletching.


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## Smoke (Feb 4, 2003)

Given your specs I would say that your arrow is *way* too weak to ever paper tune. For hunting I would step up the spine so that you get good clean arrow flight and maximum penetration energy at the animal (though from the sounds of it you have plenty of energy to spare!)

As I mentioned before I've seen some god awful arrow flight still be accurate on the range. I can't argue with success, but I equate it out to football... Some can throw a nice clean spiral, others throw wobbly passes. If both hit the intended target you can't say one is more accurate than the other. Just that one does it in style


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

In this case paper tuning worked very well. Left tear indicates a weak spine, and by golly, that's what you have!


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

*Weak spine????*

How do you get a stiffer spine than a 6075 th hunter select i thought those were some of the stiffest arrows made . a 100 gr. head will stiffen up some right"? i'm gonna go try it now be back momentarily


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## BowRegards (Jan 7, 2003)

You might try letting someone else shoot the bow and see if they get the same tear. That might eliminate operator error.


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

ok put on 100 gr. tips and it helped a little. what would be a stiffer shaft, and where is this info when buying shafts


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## Smoke (Feb 4, 2003)

Arrow manufacturers have spine charts for arrow selection. They aren't perfect but they will usually get you in the ball park.

"65-75" is the manufacturers rough suggested draw weight range for that arrow. While this is not the end all of shaft selection due to differences in bows, arrow length, draw length, and point weight, it's a start. Try a 75-95 spined shaft.


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

*you guys are good*

hey smoke you and the rest of these guys are a big help man, thanks so much i could not understand what it was. just went out and backed off wedge bolts 2 complete rounds and perfect bullet holes all of the high completely gone and only about 1/16 th inch of left which is probably due to my tinkering, get that out easy. But now mixed emotions, I love these 12 g.p.i. arrows. I will start searching , but if yall know of a stiff spine where i can keep my weight let me know, plus i got an 80# allegiance ordered what kind of shaft will be stiff enough for this thing. :teeth: :embarasse


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

where did you guys get the spine stiffness from carbon express i can,t find it on there site and what is the spine stiffness on 6075 th hunter. Easton suggested the new axis and the new camo obsession 300 is 11.5 per inch i like em i like em alot . anyone shoot these arrows and will they be tough to fletch with blazers due to small dia.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

From paper tear and guessing that 6575 meant "65 to 75#, I deduced that an 82 # peak weight was probably a little excessive for the arrow spine. I wish all arrow companies would number their arrows as to spine (i.e. 340, 400, 500, 690) as it would make it so much simpler.

DARREL:

By the way, the reason the shorter draw length worked was not because of any induced torque, but because with a shorter draw you reduced the dynamic deflection of the arrows (i.e. made them effectively stiffer).


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

on another thread i have just been told that spine deflection on 6075 is .290


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*Goldtip!*

Try a Goldtip 75/95. Stiff as a little boys PEE PEE!
I think darrel is right the long draw makes you swing left at the moment of release. (if you are right handed) A arrow shot from a mechanical release bends up and down not side to side. A very little amount of hand torque can make the bow jump sideways and nothing you do other than work on your grip will change it. Try moving the grip around on your palm just ever so slightly as you shoot and see where the tear goes. Your release has to be very consistant. If you pluck the string (and you can pluck with a mechanical release) or your hand flies away from your face instead of straight back to your sholder when you release the string will oscillate side to side as it moves forward and the arrow will leave the bow also side to side. The rip will always be there if the bow does not jump straight forward when you release the string.
A shaft has to be more than just one or two sizes to weak not to be able to tune it out. Shoot it out of a Hooter shooter and i bet it bullet holes. The only thing differant is the form. I have shot very weak shaft from my bow in the H/S and guess what. Thats right bullet hole. Some day soon I will post some pics of a piece of paper shot from my H/S with the bow perfectly tuned and then with it all jacked around and show what perfect form can do over and over.
Just my .02 ..Dave!


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I cannot paper tune to save my life. I'm a 300-50X indoor shooter in BHFS, and a 390+ shooter at 3D on 40 targets using pins and targets out to 50 yards. So there....LOL :beer: :beer: 

I don't waste my time anymore. I shoot for good visual flight (using a friend), a good walk back tune for center shot and monitor how good my groups are out to long ranges. For my hunting arrows I tune my broadheads and field tips to hit the same and call it good.

Too much time is wasted shooting paper when 99% of people's problems are their lousy form and lack of time behind the bowstring. STOP PAPER TUNING AND SHOOT!!!!


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*Yeah..What he said!*

YOU TELL'EM DOUG!
Thats my kinda guy..Ha! Ha!


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

OK i appreciate all input but if it is torque why is it that i dropped it down to 74 pounds and i can shoot 10 bullet holes in a row. I have two friends both with 30 inch draws and i paper tune both their bows with excellent holes. As far as form all the so-called pro shops around here try to talk me ito shooting tourney's. That little sling that goes on your wrist i could basically throw it away and never miss it, and i shoot open hand, i'm by no means trying to pull my own chain but i really don't think i'm torqueing the bow. This is just my first set-up with 84# so i never really paid that much attention to spine, i thought this heavy thing was as stiff as their was, way wrong. well i'll get some .280 to .300 and krank er back down to see, i'll let ya know how it turns out. again thanks for all input. I've learned more off here in3 months than i did in 9 years of trial and error. :smile:


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## Darrel (Nov 9, 2004)

Jabwa said:


> From paper tear and guessing that 6575 meant "65 to 75#, I deduced that an 82 # peak weight was probably a little excessive for the arrow spine. I wish all arrow companies would number their arrows as to spine (i.e. 340, 400, 500, 690) as it would make it so much simpler.
> 
> DARREL:
> 
> By the way, the reason the shorter draw length worked was not because of any induced torque, but because with a shorter draw you reduced the dynamic deflection of the arrows (i.e. made them effectively stiffer).


Jabwa, 
I have to disagree. I let three other people shoot the bow the way it was set up and they could shoot bullet holes all day. We tried various arrows with different spines and weights and nothing helped with "my" tear. The only thing we could find is my draw length was a little long. We shortened the draw and "my" tear went away. Even though you could not see it, I was applying torque to the bow due to the excessive draw length. 

So, I would have to say that dynamic deflection was not the problem. By the was, I was shooting X-cutters at the time. I don't think I needed a stiffer arrow.

Darrel


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## Jacob Wukie (Dec 18, 2004)

Okay, I don't think anyone on here is arguing that a bow with less than perfect tune will not shoot good. I think most people here that advocate paper tuning believe the bow will be more forgiving if it will paper tune perfectly (or very close to perfectly). I personally like paper tuning a little and I think it makes my bow more forgiving which will give me a higher score.
That being said I can't believe people are trying to get 1BB to play with his grip and work on his form without ever even seeing him shoot! I think that is bad advice. Yes he was having problems getting his bow to paper tune but there is nothing that suggests he needs to change his form. Sounds like you're doing pretty good now 1BB keep it up :thumbs_up


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

thanks man seeing how i turned it down 8 pounds and it tuned perfectly i'm pretty sure it is spine. I had no idea this big heavy arrow was that weak. I thought it was as stiff as you get . WRONG. But in a way i'm glad i done a lot of research in the last two days and learned several aspects i didn't know. and thats what it is all about ,I love archery and i want to learn everything i can. and this site is the best i've come across for info, but i learned already you got to know when to ignore the bad. As far as form i go to great lenghts not to torque. I think if your not a 3-Der some thing your shooting is sub-par and that's fine i'm not here to argue shooting skill. I'm here to learn fine tuning. But there are some ole hunters out there who can shoot pretty darn well :wink: I'll make a deal if you will get me a target that will spill a red liquid on the floor i'll come shoot with yall. :smile: and then i'll buy us a :beer: Thanks for help guys :thumbs_up


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Darrel:

With the added info I certainly agree with your assessment. This is another problem with paper tuning: individual differences in form, draw length, etc. enter in. Ever see anything about too long or too short a draw length in an arrow selection chart?  When my wife shoots her bow with a certain arrow she gets a left tear, when I shoot it I get a right tear (its too short a draw length for me). My question here is: is the arrow too weak or too stiff? In this case, as in your case, it is simply draw length. Oops! Nope, because it just so happens that weak and stiff spine reactions (left and right tears) are exactly reversed in my case for some unknown reason. You see how confusing this paper shooting can get?


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*Jw & 1bb*

Hey guys how are ya? Glad to see you got it shooting the way you want it.
JW no one "TOLD" him to change his grip or his form they were just suggestions that he ask for at the on set. 
You guys come on here looking for help and everyone has a thought or two and you tag them as "bad advise". No advise is bad. You either use it or you do not. These guys are drawing form ther own experiances.
In case you do not know draw weight has everything to do with proper form and bow torque. From the amount of pressure the bow puts in the palm of your hand to the way your individual muscles react to the amount of weight. When you go see a coach one of the first things he or she will do is make sure the bow fits you properly and that you are NOT pulling to much draw weight because they can not help you if you are. (not that it matters but I am a NFAA advanced level coach).
*When absolutly nothing you move on the bow does not change the way a arrow shoots thru paper 90% or more of the time it is the shooter.* My hooter shooter will bullet hole all day without a miss with arrows well over and well under spine for the bow I put in it. I would bet you $100that 1BB's bow would do the same @ 82# and his 60/75's. 
Now that being said it could very well be 1BB's arrows "are" under spine. Or his bow just likes to be shot @ 74#. Or his form likes 74#. Or his bow hand does not bend sideways as much (torque) @ 74# as it did @ 82#. ect, ect, ect.
You guys really need to get the slow motion video that Easton puts out so you can see for your self that a arrow shot with a mechanical release *DOES NOT BEND FROM SIDE TO SIDE THEY BEND UP AND DOWN* if the string is going straight forward and not oscillating from torqueing the release.
As I said in my previous post move the grip around in your hand and see what happens to the tear. Like you said..we did not see him shoot so all we can do is offer our "bad advise".
Advise is just that..advise. You either use it or you do not. Be carefull how you react you my not get any. :zip: 
Now lets get back to the fun stuff and talk about archery.  
Someone bring me a :beer: ......Bow-Zo!


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

*Bow-zo*

You are 100 percent right, I appreciate it when someone takes time out to post and try to help, not just saying it I sincerely appreciate it. and if i can ever do the same i will in an instant. I've said it over and over this site has helped me in ways you can't imagine. As far as poundage. have you ever shot a liberty?? 84 is like 70 on anything else. I can shot it 50 times straight with little effect. As far as experimenting i have shot every possible grip and holding style I can through paper. And documented what effects each have. Right now i am shooting off the riser,(no grip). The only thing that will tell is tommorrow when i get my .300 spines and krank-er back down. But i completely understand what you are saying. If you were in my area i would sign up for your coaching services tommorrow. :thumbs_up Again thanks to everyone,


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

*Bow-zo*

I got to thinking about the bad advice thing, so i went back and looked where i might have said it and what i found was i said you get alot of advise here you just have to ignore the bad. What i was referring to was another thread where i was told this spine was from .290 to .3895 thats a wide range and you gotta admit the wrong end of that was bad wrong whether it was given in error or what. So i just wanted to clear that up, I take everyones advice i don,t know enough not to. Again thanks for input from you and everyone. :thumbs_up


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

Hey 1BB,
Sorry if I made that sound like I was aim'in at you.. I was not.
It was JW or Jacob W. that did not appreciate the advise that was given. 
I can tell you know something about what you are do'in. When you ask for help on here you are going to get all kinds of input. Some good..some not so good but well intended. You just have to take what you think you can use. That is the good part about Archery Talk.."Archers helping Archers"
Glad you got it shoot'in straight.
C-ya..Dave!


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## Jacob Wukie (Dec 18, 2004)

My apologies. You're right, people are on here taking their time to give advice and I should not bash them for it.


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

*Bow-Zo*

Hey no harm no fowl, As far as knowing what i,m doing eehh eehh. I,m trying to learn though. I'm an info junkie, and bay gad i think i come to yhe right place. :smile: Hope you don't mind if I pm ya if I have any form or other questions. :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

My rule on the peak weight thing is this: for hunting, 5# under the most weight you can pull (you only need to shoot one shot well); for 3D, 10# under the most weight you can pull (you only need to shoot 40 shots well); for Field, 15# to 20# less than the most weight you can pull (you need to shoot 112 shots well).


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

Anytime 1BB, anytime.

jabwa, i use to shoot 70 - 75 # for everything then I learn speed is not the secret to accurate shooting. I can hold like a rock @ 50-55 # so my target bows are around 55 and my hunting stuff is 65. Just about the numbers you suggested :shade: 
My groups begin to open up after 50 or so arrows if I shoot more than 55# but I am no spring chicken either. :wink: 

You guys have a good day! Dave!


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## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

First of you are human and chances are out of 3 shots all will be just a little different,as will your arrows and so will the way the arrows fly at different distances from the paper,the amount you pull into your wall etc.Either walk back away from the paper as you shoot until you get a "bullet hole" or light a match and hold it up to the paper.
Go to a shooter school with Goerge Chapman or Alexander Krizlov...the first thing they will tell you is go home and get rid of your paper tuner!


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## 1horn (Jan 12, 2005)

try a cx400, i think I tuned a guy with a 29-80 liberty a couple months ago. The camo400 is a little stiffer yet.


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## eriesigtau (Dec 10, 2004)

I was getting a left tear like you said. I asked some guys for some advice on here and nothing was helping. Then I asked a local guy and he took a look at my bow. When I pulled back my bow my idler wheel was leaningvery slightly. The only way you can see it is if your outside in the sunlight and someone is standing 3 ft behind you looking at it when at full draw and anchored. He could see that the string was not in line with the wheel. To fix the problem I had to put twists in ONE side of the yoke. If your wheel or cam is leaning right at the top, put twists in the left side of the yoke or take out twists from the right. Do the opposite if its leaning left. Remember ... by doing that, it could throw your axit to axil measurement off tune so you may have to put twists in your string to bring that back. When I paper tune, I set the arrow in the rest and set the nock and arrow so they are flat through the berger hole. If your bow is tuned right with no cam lean you should get a bullet. 

Heres something else ... even though most guys dont like to hear this, you may want to shorten your draw up a little. When I shortened mine up, my tear got better even before I learned about the cam lean thing. The arrow spline theory was not a very effective way of getting a bullet hole (at least for me). I tried heavier splined arrows and still had the same problem. 

Hope this helped ... PM me if you need to know more.


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## 1 Bad Bowhunter (Feb 13, 2005)

*Thanks everyone*

Just got through testing the Gold Tip 100 +'s Awesome perfect bullet holes kranked down to 84 40 yard groups better than ever. Anyone in need of a stiff spine give-em a shot!!!! Gold tip :thumbs_up carbon express :thumbs_do


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