# Reducing Point On and Gaps



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Hi all

I've been watching the threads lately and have noticed some discussion on "point on" distances, "gap" measurements, archor points, arrow weights and lengths. I'd like some input on my current condition. I've been gap shooting for my 3 year recurve career and have not been able to get my gap/point to a reasonable number for hunting and 3D without collapsing my form and short drawing the bow. My current setup is as follows:

43# Dorado at 29" Draw
31" 465gr Arrow
3 Under
Middle finger to corner of mouth w/thumb behind jaw bone anchor (cannot anchor higher on my face due to string interference with my glasses)

Point on: 38 Yards
Max Gap: 21" at 20 yards

I'd love to try a 6-8gr/lb arrow but my point on and gap numbers would probably go from barely acceptable to down right stupid. The current setup works OKish for deer sized targets but I get into some really awkward hold under situations for small 3D targets. I have not played with the nock point since the bow is currently tuned to shoot field points and broadheads in exactly the same group. Any other suggestions or ideas?

Thanks!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jcs - 

You'll get other suggestions, I'm sure, but for hunting the only way to functionally reduce your gap and maintain reasonable speed is to raise your anchor point. You may need to get the tail of the arrow very close to your eye though - I'm not a fan of doing that...

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Longer arrows.
Higher nock-point.

Unfortunately finding a longer arrow that isn't way to heavy, expensive and/or overspined is a real pain, I keep searching for one myself. I've got a 41yd PO with my 3D arrows and there is no way I can get a higher anchor consistently, I'm already shooting thumb-up.

-Grant


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Whoops, I messed up in my earlier post. My arrow specifications are as follows:

31" 445gr Beman ICS 500 w/50gr brass inserts, 125gr Magnus II Broadheads

I'm not a heavy arrow or high FOC advocate. I ended up with this combination by trying to utilize a relatively inexpensive and readily available ICS 500 shafts at almost full length for hunting. I've thought a couple times about getting some weight tubes to try and further decrease the point on and gap values. But I'm already over 10gr/# and the idea of it seems almost silly.

I've tried anchoring with my ring finger to the corner of my mouth (with my thumb behind jaw bone) but the string touches my glasses. So unless I switch to contact I cannot raise it. I'm not comfortable with the nock that close to my eye anyway.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

shoot a can't pinch tab it will reduce your point 3 to 5 yds depending on how thick the can't pinch is
using your second finger as your anchor point the can't pinch is raising the arrow about 1/4" closer to your eye. if you shoot a glove glue a 1/4" thick piece of leather on the middle finger of your glove it will work just like the can't pinch. Don't laugh till you try it

Gary


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think you've covered the bases pretty well already. Long arrows and high anchors are the normal ways to reduce gaps. My gaps with faster bows are very similar to what you are getting. I kind of like it as the 21-22" range is the distance from the feet of deer and 3D critters to the middle of the kill zone from 15-25 yards. One thing that I find that helps with smaller/closer targets is starting with my point at a determined point prior to drawing, then drawing into the gap.


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## Buck13 (Dec 13, 2011)

Three ideas:

1. Get smaller glasses. Unless you're already wearing tiny frames, you can buy extra facial real estate for a higher anchor.

2. Get contacts. I wore them full time for 20 years, had to switch to glasses for daily wear, but I still wear them infrequently for kayaking and scuba.

3. Get lasik. I won't do it myself for fear of poor correction or side effects (halos, etc) but the few people I know who've had it done are happy.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

centershot said:


> I think you've covered the bases pretty well already. Long arrows and high anchors are the normal ways to reduce gaps. My gaps with faster bows are very similar to what you are getting. I kind of like it as the 21-22" range is the distance from the feet of deer and 3D critters to the middle of the kill zone from 15-25 yards. One thing that I find that helps with smaller/closer targets is starting with my point at a determined point prior to drawing, then drawing into the gap.


You've pretty much nailed the way I have been deer hunting the last couple years. Both of the deer I've killed have been approximate 15 yard shots that I was able to use the technique you described. If I'm only shooting at deer or deer sized targets from 10-25 yards my current condition actually works quite well. Things can go haywire really quick when I'm trying to hit smaller targets at odd distances. 

Thanks for the suggestions all!


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I guess I'm not following--sorry if I'm missing the point, but what's the problem? A wide gap isn't a problem. Dave Wallace, the IBO longbow champ of several times (and an avid hyunter) has a gap of about three feet at twenty yards, and Steve Morley has a point on of over fifty yards. Sounds more like a form problem, caused by either too much weight or target panic if you're collapsing.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> I'd love to try a 6-8gr/lb arrow but my point on and gap numbers would probably go from barely acceptable to down right stupid. The current setup works OKish for deer sized targets but I get into some really awkward hold under situations for small 3D targets. I have not played with the nock point since the bow is currently tuned to shoot field points and broadheads in exactly the same group. Any other suggestions or ideas?


Like others have said....you've pretty much covered most of the options and the only thing I would suggest is to play with your anchor point and/or you could learn an aspect of String Walking and move your grip on the string further down from where you originally had it. 

As far as gaps being to big...it's all relative and how you choose to deal with it.

I have a 95yrds. POD and my gaps at hunting distances are large to say the least and the way I have compensated is to use my riser as a partial frame around my target and gapped off the riser while also using my arrow. 

Yes...it does make the aiming process easier having the arrow tip closer to being on target but it's really amazing what the mind and eyes can do if you let them.

Ray :shade:


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## Hunter Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

jcs, the gap you describe seems quite manageable and it sounds like you're very satisfied with your tune. I'd suggest you not attempt to change anything and instead just concentrate on practice, practice, practice to gain confidence on those closer distances. Focus on drawing the bow the same each time, no matter what distance to your target. It will come together for you given enough practice. BTW, did I mention practice? :darkbeer:


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I guess I'm not following--sorry if I'm missing the point, but what's the problem? A wide gap isn't a problem. Dave Wallace, the IBO longbow champ of several times (and an avid hyunter) has a gap of about three feet at twenty yards, and Steve Morley has a point on of over fifty yards. Sounds more like a form problem, caused by either too much weight or target panic if you're collapsing.


Thanks for the input all. Most of what is driving these questions is 3D shooting a small targets. I often find myself trying to hit a very small 10 or 8 zone by holding 18" or more below the target in the grass. And yes I can live with the current condition and do shoot fairly well in state level tournaments. Guess I just have "gap envy" :wink: when I here of guys having a 20-25 yard point on with a maximum gap of 12" or less. 

As far as my form I believe it is pretty solid (but can always be improved), I've had some coaching, practive form multiple times a week and shoot consistent 240s in a NFAA 20 yard 300 round with my hunting rig.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think when the gaps get to 12" or so at 20 yards the bows are very slow and arrows very heavy - as in dedicated 20 yard barebow rigs or anchoring very high with the nock way up by your eye. Something that helps me on the little critters is determining my gap by the size of the critter. ie, 10 yards at a woodchuck, I'll draw from point on where I want to hit, draw to a full woodchuck low then shoot. With a little work you can figure out what the typical size of the smaller targets are then use thier size to assist with your gap.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

For distances 15 yards or less, try forgetting about gaps and just point and shoot. The trajectory of the arrow should be flat enough to hit where you point.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Depending on the bow, you can use the riser for in close shooting IE 20 yards... on my Sapphire Hawk LB, where the riser starts its turn into the sight picture is a perfect 20 yards with my setup.... I can then gap shoot off the riser for in close targets, 15-30 yards. After 30 yards I then use my point as a reference for gap shooting. I am trying to find a good arrow combo with raising my anchor point for a closer point on with my ILF bow.


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

Is there a good website or book that explains gap shooting. I am new to this and trying to figure out aiking a longbow. I have read a little about "gap" shooting and what I think what I means is that your 'point on' is the distance that when you aim your arrow tip at a target it hits that exact spot. If you move closer to the target, your arrow tip will be aimed slightly below and even lower as you get closer. As you move further from point on, you will have to aim arrow slightly above point on to hit that spot. Is that what the basis of gap shooting is? From what I've seen, you measure the distance the arrow impact is above or below point on and that is the distance you aim above or below based on the yardage your shooting?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Pretty much. I know my Point on say it is 45 yards, shorter distances I know that lets say bottom of the deer target at 35, and for farther say 55 the back of the deer target. It is really knowing the gapo distance between the tip of the arrows and the spot you wish to impact at various distances. AS I stated earlier in this thread, for close shots, I gap off my riser "sight window" out to 30 yards. At that point I now start gapping off my arrow tip. Black Wolf made the same comment earlier. Takes lots of practice to find your gaps... and once you do it will help your game immensely


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## benzy (Oct 23, 2006)

Hi Jerry!!! I'm back. :0) What do you want to shoot better for? You get a bigger wood shed or something? 

If you can't raise your nock, or anchor would lowering your rest, or removing it ( and shooting off the shelf ) accomplish the same thing? While maintaining basically the same string angle around your glasses... ???

You shooting Sunday?

pooch... You got it. Check out Masters of the Barebow III


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

pooch - that is the idea. A real general way to get your gaps is to find your point on - say 30 yards. Take half of that 15, find your gap there and know that is the max gap you will have from 0-30 yards. At no time should you ever hold lower than your 15 yard hold. From that point you gaps will be smaller. Halfing is not exactly accurate, but gives a good reference. An example of typical gaps - my bow shoots about 170 fps - I have a point on of 32 yards and my gaps are 10 yds -18", 20 yds -20", 25 yds -18", 30 yds -4", 32yds point on. As you can see all shots from 10 to 25 yards are basically the same gap. At ranges over 32 yards I have to hold over. 
I like to use a piece of masking tape about 30" long ran vertically on a target but with several 8" horizontal pieces at 8" intervals to 'sight in'. Aim at the top cross, check your arrow point at the lower crosses to determine your gaps. It seems kind of complicated at first, but is quickly memorized and becomes second nature. I find this method of aiming the most reliable and accurate way to shoot. Opinions vary, kind of depends on how you think - try it and see if it works for you. Remember, no aiming system is worth a hoot if your form is not consistant. Good luck with it.


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

If I understand this correctly...to reduce your point-on-distance you have the options of:

A slower arrow/bow combination
A higher anchor position
A longer arrow shaft
A higher nocking point
A lower hand postion on the string

Does a change in arrow shelf height or moving to an elevated rest have any effect? Are there any other alterations or considerations I am missing? 

Thanks for the advice and direction.

Big Dog


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

AAA - that pretty much sum's it up. Shelf vs. Elevated rest has no effect on gapping under the point on distance because you use the top/tip of the arrow to aim off of. When the ranges get beyond your point on distance then the shelf can get in the way where an elevated rest allows for some vision below the arrow.


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## benzy (Oct 23, 2006)

True, I should have explained further sorry... The OP does have an elevated rest and if he removes it or lowers it, without changing his nock height. It should act as if he just raised his nock point and that may still leave him a string angle that can accommodate his glasses.

BUT reading back through the posts he hasn't attempted a nock point change because of field point / broadhead tune. So my post made little sense and would be like filing down the front bead on a shotgun when you could just raise the rear sight...

So I completely withdraw my reply and suggest he instead, just burn down that dang wood shed. :0)


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

centershot said:


> pooch - that is the idea. A real general way to get your gaps is to find your point on - say 30 yards. Take half of that 15, find your gap there and know that is the max gap you will have from 0-30 yards. At no time should you ever hold lower than your 15 yard hold. From that point you gaps will be smaller. Halfing is not exactly accurate, but gives a good reference. An example of typical gaps - my bow shoots about 170 fps - I have a point on of 32 yards and my gaps are 10 yds -18", 20 yds -20", 25 yds -18", 30 yds -4", 32yds point on. As you can see all shots from 10 to 25 yards are basically the same gap. At ranges over 32 yards I have to hold over.
> I like to use a piece of masking tape about 30" long ran vertically on a target but with several 8" horizontal pieces at 8" intervals to 'sight in'. Aim at the top cross, check your arrow point at the lower crosses to determine your gaps. It seems kind of complicated at first, but is quickly memorized and becomes second nature. I find this method of aiming the most reliable and accurate way to shoot. Opinions vary, kind of depends on how you think - try it and see if it works for you. Remember, no aiming system is worth a hoot if your form is not consistant. Good luck with it.


So at 32 yards, your arrow tip is aimed at bullseye should hit. At 10 yards with your PO being -18", you would aim arrow 18 under target spot you would want to hit? So if you wanted to hit heart of deer at 10 yards you would have arrow tip aimed at 18" under heart?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

You got it. Now I don't look at the tip when I shoot (that is true gap). Instead, I check the tip location and focus on the spot I want to hit. More of a split vision type of shooting - seeing the whole site picture is the key. Checking the gap prior to releasing gives me assurance that my arrow will hit where I want, the finer I gap the better the shot. Hope that helps.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

WHen I make changes to my bow or arrow cahnge I start over learning my gaps. First I find my point on, and once again lets say 45 yards. I shoot a group at 45 yards on a vertical piece of cardboard with blue tape running down it. I then go to 40 yards and aim at the center again, it should now be about 4-5"s higher, I now have established my 40 yard gap. I do the same at 35 yards... etc through 30 yards where I switch to my riser sighting... find my 20 yard spot on the riser, what this does is eliminates me holding my tip in the grass below the target, then move back to 25 yards it should hit lower, I then use my riser 20 yard spot, aim it a bit higher until I find where it has me hitting 25 yards. Then out to 30 and do it again. I also go out to 50 yards using my 45 point on and figure my gap as I did for shorter yardages. When I shoot below 30 yards I rely on the sight picture of my riser as my "point on" instead of my arrow tip as for me it is easier than aiming at the ground or way below the target. For example on my field bow, I know my elevated rest is a perfect 70 yards, and the shelf is 100 yards. Of course with that bow my arrow tip point on is a bit farther than 45 yards.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm an instictive shooter (pick and shoot), but I'm tinkering with gap and dreaming for point on at 20 yds.....66", 80#@30 recurve 35" 2514... 100gr. tips.............I can't seem to get either one..... granted point on is freakin dreaming with this setup... but gap should be achievable it's just that the gap is just too great to judge consistantly...........I can hold this bow at full draw(steady) for 30 seconds so weight shouldn't be a problem.....I am just so use to picking a spot....... but I can't seem to do that effectively due to the lighting and a touch of macular degeneration.......I am going to try yellow shooting glasses to see if that may indeed help as I've been told....any suggestions?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Another very simple way to learn gap is to use a sight - shoot with it for a while see where it aligns with the riser etc - get used to the overall sight picture, then remove the sight. You should be able to imagine where the pin was and use that. You must be in excellent shape, holding an 80# bow for 30 seconds! - 10 seconds with a 45# bow has me shaking like a leaf.........Use that holding ability to slow down your shot and really aim. Should make for a deadly method.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> but I can't seem to do that effectively due to the lighting and a touch of macular degeneration


Damn! You can't win for losing.

Yep! Instinctive and gapping accuracy (referencing) can suffer in low-light conditions, which includes gray days and shade. Depending on how advanced your macular degeneration is, and whether wet or dry, you are also going to experience diminished depth perception, distance vision, and judging size of objects at certain distances. It just may be, dare I say it; "optic-fiber sight pin" time for you.










As for "Yellow" shooting glasses; spot on! I have always carried yellow wrap-around shooting shooting glasses and goggles in my butt-pack and regularly use them for low-light conditions; always as the sun begins to set. BUT; though I wear prescription glasses I do not need them for the field. If you wear glasses and have to at all times, find the yellow clip-ons. 










Another method I use on my shafts to assist in visually picking up the shaft point when taking a shot in low-light is I wrap the end of my shafts with a 1" to 1-1/4"" wide section of florescent yellow self-adhering thin wrap I purchase at a shop that sells RC aircraft and accessories.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Deleted duplicate post.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I Got it!...I Got it!!!...........ok here's what I did, I swapped out my 80+# hunting limbs for a set of Trad Tech carbonwoods that I got from Mr. Castro up above, they are 45 on a 17" riser and my warf is 20", I haven't scaled them yet as my scale is over to the shop but I'm guessing with the added deflex they are running about 50#......I bare shafted with my 35" 2514's/ 175gr. and they were weak, so I changed to 100gr. and it was perfect......also switched to two under and now my point on is exactly 20 yds..... the same distance as my league distance........the only other point on I've ever did was during long distance shooting and it's usually 75-90 yds depending on the bow, now even if it's still a bit blurry I can just AIM for center of the blur........now I'm hoping this is so different from my instictive that I'll still be able to do both as I've spent a lot of my life keeping my instictive shooting up and hate to lose it, but this is the chit right here, super easy and nothing to worry about, heck maybe I'll just keep doing this even hunting....this should really improve my scores,can't wait to see.......Thanks for this thread fellas!!!!, and Jim Thanks to you too, and don't fear, I haven't forgot you!!


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## pooch692000 (Dec 28, 2011)

centershot said:


> You got it. Now I don't look at the tip when I shoot (that is true gap). Instead, I check the tip location and focus on the spot I want to hit. More of a split vision type of shooting - seeing the whole site picture is the key. Checking the gap prior to releasing gives me assurance that my arrow will hit where I want, the finer I gap the better the shot. Hope that helps.


I've been just shooting at 3-7 yards now and I just aim where I want to hit and it seems to work pretty well. I focus on where I want to hit and then give a quick look at tip to make sure it is under target point. Guess it is instinctive. I just pull to same anchor point, take deep breath on pull back to get full draw, and and release. Barely hold onto draw at all. Works better and more accurate then when I hold on target point. Figure I need to learn gap once I get outside after breaking in bow and get a bigger target than 2ftx2ft.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Anytime you use the tip of your shaft to gauge or double-check your point of aim, you are gap aiming.

Gap aiming is when the spot you want to hit is in clear focus and the the tip of your arrow is blurred and observed within your peripheral vision. What degree the spot is in focus vs. what degree the tip of the arrow is or is not in clear focus depends on what the shooter has determined they prefer and shoot the best with.

To be accurate gapping you have know what amount of gap between the tip of your arrow and the "spot" is required for a particular distance for the particular setup you are shooting. Hence, you have to be able to accurately estimate the range of the target, or know the range. When bowhunting from static positions I have all the ranges in each field of fire marked in some manner to the max distance I will shoot. Might be a marker I have placed or one that is already in the area(s).

Different shooters have different definitions of "split-vision." My definition of "split vision" is when I pick or place a separate spot on the target other than my actual point of aim to reference my arrow tip. Though the spot I want to hit is in clear focus, the point of my shaft on the second spot is observed in my peripheral vision. About the only time I actually use the "split vision" method is when I am tuning and shooting in.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> Anytime you use the tip of your shaft to gauge or double-check your point of aim, you are gap aiming.
> 
> Gap aiming is when the spot you want to hit is in clear focus and the the tip of your arrow is blurred and observed within your peripheral vision. What degree the spot is in focus vs. what degree the tip of the arrow is or is not in clear focus depends on what the shooter has determined they prefer and shoot the best with.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Split Vision is a specific aiming technique where as splitting your vision is what many Gap shooters do while Gap Aiming.

Ray :shade:


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Well, I thought I had it...shot the same exact crappy score tonight as I did on monday, but having not shot this way before , I'm thinking my scores will improve as I get use to it.....


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