# Cartel Fantom Fiber Limb Failure (TWICE!)



## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

I just had my second set of Cartel Fantom Fiber Limbs fail. One set was only 6 weeks old and used daily, the other set was 3 months old but stored "off-bow" until a few days ago. Both sets failed in the exact same way immediately after release. The black plastic tip reinforcement breaks where the string makes contact with the limb tip. When this happens, the plastic separates from the limb tip leaving a sharp, jagged edge which immediately cuts the string, causing the bow to explode LOUDLY in your hand. Both limbs go flying about 20 feet forward and the arrow cartwheels in front of your face! Side note: from now on, I will be wearing eye-protection regardless of sunny/overcast conditions. If this has never happened to you, I can tell you that it is a very scary experience. The first time this happened I got a nice "string lashing" across my bow hand. But the biggest damage is psychological. Now that this has happened twice, the possibility of it happening again is lingering in the back of my mind during my shot... especially at release.

After the first incident, I emailed the dealer, Alternative Services, with pictures and a narrative explaining what happened. And to their credit, they responded with some questions and have shipped a replacement set free of charge. This second time, I did the same, explaining that I was somewhat afraid of shooting these limbs anymore. Here is their response:

"Hi John

We sell thousands of pairs of Fantom limbs and we have had very few problems with failures, certainly not limb tip failures, so we can only assume it is the way you are treating them.
Incorrect storing or incorrect stringing, along with many other things can cause early failure.
One failure we were prepared to accept as being a manufacturing fault two from the same customer is not real!!
If there was a real design or manufacturing fault in this area we would know about it by now.

Regards"

I can understand their reasoning but I would really like to determine if it is something I'm doing wrong or just bad luck with a cheap product. Since I shoot every day, I leave my bow strung and store it on a recurve bow stand. I've read here on ArcheryTalk that this should not be a problem for modern Olympic recurve bows. The first set was using a Kaya 8125 string, the second set used an Angel ABS Dyneema. These limbs are relatively inexpensive so I'm not as concerned with recovering the $$$ investment as I am with preventing this from happening to me again. And perhaps I can also help prevent this from happening to somebody else by possibly identifying something that I'm doing wrong and sharing it on this forum.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's just a bad product. Plain and simple. Not a good material to reinforce the limb tips with, or robust enough for the heavier limbs or both...

I've had good luck with a few Cartel products (risers and tabs and SOME plungers), but frankly, would never use their limbs. Seems anything they make that's designed to move (sights, limbs, arrows, etc.) just don't work all that well...

John


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Keep us posted what you find out. My daughter's bow has these limbs (24# short length) and I'd prefer to not have her get whacked. We've had these limbs for about 6 months. She's shot thousands of shots on them with a BCY452 string made by our local shop. Fortunately we have not seen this happen.

Is it always the top or bottom or did you have one of each fail?


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

First time was top, second time was bottom... so, one of each (short 30#, short 40#). I still have a set of medium 30# I've been using until my SF limbs arrive. I've been unstringing them after each practice and inspecting the tips under a magnifier lamp to see if there are any cracks, etc.

The only thing worse than getting "whacked" would be missing my daily practice! :smile:

John


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

In the past, I remember that entry level limbs specifically said that they should be used with Dacron strings and not Fast Flight. The problem was located in the limb tips. It looks to me that you are experiencing something similar.


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

The Cartel Fantom Fiber limbs, and Fantom riser for that matter, did not come with any documentation whatsoever. So, there were no warnings/cautions regarding string material. And nothing on their web site:

http://www.doosungarchery.co.kr/eng/product/product01.php?ptype=view&prdcode=1212210004

If there is a limitation on their limbs they really need to give the customer some way of knowing that before somebody gets seriously injured. 
BTW, these are advertised as "Highly recommendable for beginner and intermediate archer".

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed, based on the appearance of those limb tips, that only Dacron should be used on them. Pity.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Agreed, based on the appearance of those limb tips, that only Dacron should be used on them. Pity.


Out of curiosity, what makes you say that, John?


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## ninevalleys (Apr 8, 2007)

Had that happen to me with the same limbs last year. I just put them aside and bight some k1s instead. They were so cheap it wasn't worth dealing with Alts customer service.
There was another archer at my club who had both tips fail on the fantom limbs and is still shooting them, much to everyone's concern.
So it is definitely not a user error.

Nv


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mulcade said:


> Out of curiosity, what makes you say that, John?


Limb tip reinforcements look very thin at the string groove, and that's where they broke. Material looks like some kind of molded plastic instead of laminations of phenolic resin or glass overlays.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Limb tip reinforcements look very thin at the string groove, and that's where they broke. Material looks like some kind of molded plastic instead of laminations of phenolic resin or glass overlays.


Ok, that makes sense.


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## DanZ (Feb 17, 2009)

Linen phenolic would not break like that. If you know any traditional bowyers or are at all handy with wood working it would be easy to fix-- and make better than new if they won't take it back. You can order a small piece of phenolic from Bingham Projects.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Looks like they have employed a cost cutting measure in that proper limb tips are tedious to make. The injected molded plastic will not hold up! Phenolic is the way to go as well as reinforcement with a layer of bowtuff glass. Looks like a failed experiment in economy!


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

It is definitely a very light weight, one-piece, molded plastic. Also looks like very minimal glue used to hold them on... you can see where they scuffed a small area on the very tip and a bit across the bottom to get some adhesion. Sad, really.

John


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## TeamKru (Jan 31, 2013)

OK Now I am panicking! I have 26# Cartel Fiber limbs...using 8125..hope this does not happen to me. Me thinks I will be looking for an alternative. Any advice for a new recurve archer on 28-32# INEXPENSIVE limbs? As I am new to the sport and getting the form down still, Not looking to break the bank on equipment. Should I go for an entry level carbon? or just a better quality glass/wood? Any help is appreciated folks


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Because my daughter has these limbs, I'm thinking it might be a good idea to retire them before they explode (if they're going to). I've been looking at Kaya K1 and the new SF Axiom Plus. I'm hoping that the people that have seen failures are just an unlucky group. These limbs my daughter is using have thousands of shots on them. I'm hoping that means that they're not going to do this, but you never know!


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

Guys, Norman2 suggests that this failure may be less likely to occur in the lighter weight limbs (< 30#):

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1973588&p=1066808794#post1066808794

Mine were short 30# and short 40#. I've replaced them with medium 34# SF Premium Carbon that should be arriving TODAY!!! 

John


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## gumibears (Jun 1, 2008)

It was a good thing we didnt start suggesting these Cartel limbs to our archers. Weve had terrible experience with just about every Cartel item that had to do with the bow themselves. The only things decent were tabs and bow stands.

If you guys are looking for decent cheap limbs, I suggest getting anything from SF, Samick, W&W, Hoyt for around < $120. At least we havent had any problems with them yet. They are all ILF and good enough to shoot for a long while.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Cartel make great bow stands, and some of their bags are not bad. the Fantom riser appears to be a decent budget product, if badly spelt.

but do spend your hard-earned cash on quality brands for stuff like limbs...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Guys, I wouldn't panic. I'd just suggest anyone using these limbs use a dacron string. For 90% of archers out there, they will never know the difference anyway. A simple switch from 8125 or fast flight to dacron won't change most archer's scores one single bit. But it just might save your limbs.

I agree that some of the stuff Cartel makes is a darn good buy and worth the price. But for entry level limbs, my recommendations start with SF Axiom's (if you can ever get any), then Samick Universals, then the next step up would be a carbon limb. Samick Universals are still my most-recommended entry to mid-level limb.

For those who shoot indoors almost exclusively, don't overlook the Trad Tech (Samick) Black Max limb. They are a superb deal for the money. If a person bought those and wanted to paint them silver or white, they would have a pretty darn good outdoor limb for very little $.

John


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

Shot my new medium 34# SF Premium Carbon's yesterday (replaced short 30# Fantom Fiber) on the Fantom riser. Pulling exactly 34# on fingers and getting 187 fps with Carbon One 810's cut to 28". The 30# Cartel Fiber limbs (32# on fingers) were giving me 172 fps. One thing to note with this combo, if the tiller bolts are more than two turns out from bottom, the limb base does not contact the front of the riser. Meaning, the dovetail fit does not allow very much pivot... so, there is limited weight adjustment with this combo (two turns out from max). Surprisingly, the Carbon One 810's bare shaft tuned with no weight adjustment required... I was thinking I might have to move to 730's. Also, I re-centered the limb alignments before putting the SF limbs on the riser and they were pretty close to dead center right out of the box! So far they seem very smooth and quiet at 8.5" brace height. I was shooting the Cartel Fiber limbs at 9" brace height.

John


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

So, now I have a pair of new-in-box 30# short Cartel Fantom Fiber limbs from the warranty replacement. Do you guys think it would be ok to sell these along with a 66" Dacron string and/or a disclosure statement saying why I'm selling? I'm just not sure it's worth it if something were to happen after the sale.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

John, I think that's more than fair. In fact, I don't even think you have any obligation to do that much, since Cartel certainly doesn't offer any disclosure to their customers, and ultimately, it's their liability and not yours.

John


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

Here is the latest from Alt Services (my email followed by their response):

[My email to them]:
*It would be interesting to know the failure rate of these limbs for 30# and over vs. under 30#. Based on some feedback I've received, the lower weight version of these limbs do well in large numbers, as you said. Others with more archery knowledge/experience than I have looked at the pictures and suggested that the reinforcement material appears to be some sort of molded plastic instead of the more durable phenolic used in other brand limb tip reinforcements. They also suggested that this material, combined with the use of a Fast Flight or 8125 sting (vs. Dacron), could be a problem at higher draw weights. Given that this is an inexpensive, entry-level limb, it would make sense that more of the lighter weights are sold to beginning archers. But if, in fact, these limbs should only be used with a Dacron string at higher weights, then Cartel should say so in the packaging.
*
[Their response]:
_The comment made are not born out by practice
We have sold hundreds of pairs of these limbs, I would say 90% of them use Fastflight or equivalents string material, The failure rate is VERY SMALL, in fact as a percentage both W&W and Hoyt have a higher failure rate.
If the failure rate was high we would not sell them even though they sell at a budget price.
There is certainly no correlation between higher poundage or low poundage limbs. These are a very good low priced limbs, that serve archers very well. 
Whilst I am sure this comment will be dealt with denial, because the failure rate is so very small, for you to break two pair of limbs would suggest you have, in some way, mistreated them.
We are talking to Cartel with regard to this matter, and I expect that we will simply send you yet another replacement pair of limbs
_
Is is just me or or they calling into question my veracity toward the end there? I suppose it's possible that they are suggesting that I "unknowingly" mistreated the limbs. I've been keeping my side of the discourse very civil and courteous so this kind of pisses me off.

John


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

John Hall said:


> Is is just me or or they calling into question my veracity toward the end there? I suppose it's possible that they are suggesting that I "unknowingly" mistreated the limbs. I've been keeping my side of the discourse very civil and courteous so this kind of pisses me off.


It's not just you. That's the way they are, I'm afraid. It's why I no longer give them my custom.


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## TeamKru (Jan 31, 2013)

I agree. Does note seem very professional from their end. I have dealt with them on only one order, and getting information or advice on equipment choices was difficult to say the least. At least they did not close the door on supplying you with replacements. SO that being said - it seems they are not placing 100% of the blame on you. Separate from you jamming the tips in your car door and slamming the tips, I cant see how they can separate and snap like that. Just a bad manufacturing batch likely? Is there a lot # on the limbs? Maybe contact Cartel direct? I have in the past to ask about brace height and tiller adjustment and they responded within 48 hrs.


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

I have not contacted Cartel directly. If they do replace the second pair then there will be TWO new pairs of limbs for sale... I won't use them any more. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

John


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

What was your brace height before this happened? Have there been any weird or large temperature/humidity swings near where you live?

Did the tip break in half first, or did the entire thing fall off first then break as it hit something? (I realize this one may be hard to answer)

Glad you're okay and that AS is owning up to what looks like a poor manufacturing job.

AN


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## John Hall (Jan 10, 2013)

The brace height was 9". Yes, there have been some pretty dramatic temp. swings during my ownership of these limbs. I shot the 30# in an International round where the morning temp was 35 degrees F. with rain and 65 degrees F. in the afternoon. But the 40# limbs were very little used, stored indoors, and then used only in moderate weather. So I'm not sure there is any correlation there. I'm pretty sure that the reinforcement breaks first and then separates from the tip, causing the string to get cut. But I can't be 100% certain of the order of failure.

John


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