# Double jointed elbow and coaching proper form



## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

I should have thought to post this here instead of the general forum...

Finally bought my daughter a new bow and we now have a biomechanical problem to work around. I need suggestions on how to describe\train a nice straight bow arm when the shooter is double-jointed. Sometimes she does it right, but when she does it wrong the string bites her hard. She's getting frustrated because she says, " I can't help it or control it - that's how my arm naturaly goes"..... Some of it could be fatigue - or plain slopiness - as she did realy well initially. OR, it may be related to the death grip she has with the bow hand. I've discussed the "shot routine" with her and related it to what she does during rifle matches. 

Before the issue popped up she was getting ~4" groups at 15 yards.... now she's frustrated so we're taking a few days off. BTW - my smaller one told her, "My arm does that too... I just don't let it bend like that." Lot's of stuff to consider... draw length changes, open her stance up, etc...... It's one big puzzle and I don't want to make huge changes in form or equipment as there may\will be unintended consequences. Like I said, I think it's all starting with her poor grip...

She doesn't look too bad here, but has more elbow bend than I would like - and looks like she's choking the life out of the bow:










This is a closeup of her problem:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Steve - 

The picture is very telling, but not because of what you're describing. 

First step is to back to basics, her arm isn't rotated clockwise enough. Even if she wasn't "double jointed" (misnomer), having the arm in that position will cause a string bite on the fleshy part of the forearm. See below:









Simply rotating the arm so it can only bend parallel to the floor, may be enough to help straighten it out, but if not, you'll have to enforce the "straight, but not locked" principle. For someone her age, that may have to translate into a slight bend. Just make sure that her bow is light enough so she can control it and her interaction with it. 

People with hyper-extensible joints may need to make a conscious effort to correct the problem. 

Hope all is well,

Viper1 out.


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## dwong (Sep 7, 2010)

I got the same issue. Thanks Viper for the Easy to understand description.
Thanks for bringing it up hockeyref.


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Viper,
Everything is going ok... it's been better, but that's for another discussion.

On my daughter, definitely agree on going back to basics... probably too many things for her to think about transitioning to this new bow..... She definitely is rotating the arm too much.... I'm liking an emphasis on the "straight but not locked" principle. Her arm seems to naturally go to this hyper\locked position when her hand angle and placement are not quite right or when she really grabs the bow so I need to address that as part of the fix. I'm thinking back to the blank bale. I'll re-measure the draw wt on the compound - peak was supposed to be set at 25# and, IRRC the letoff has her holding maybe 10#.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Steve -

Try the rotation thing first, a lot of times that alone will straighten the arm enough to solve the problem. Please let us know know it goes. 

Take care, buddy,

Viper1 out.


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

I just remembered....Is your book sill available? I was not making any purchases when you brought it out....


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## Flehrad (Oct 27, 2009)

Our national head coach ran a seminar and had someone ask almost exactly the same thing. Their advice for hyperflex joints is quite simple. It is a matter of humerus orientation, as the elbow joint is reliant upon the rotate of the upper arm, so joint flexion will be in the plane out of the way of the string. 

Get your daughter to relax her arms by her side completely, so if you lift the arm and let go, the arm will drop. Then, lift the arm up, so the arm is straight, but without tension (so you're doing all of the lift) so that the palm of her hand is facing straight downwards. At this point the rotation of the elbow isn't set because there is no pressure on the joints. Still with her arm relaxed, just gently push her hand so that the hand comes up like against a grip (but the hand position will be incorrect for holding a bow, the knuckles will be in a flat line, not angled) and there is pressure down the arm through the joint. At this point, this will give you a good idea of the elbow position and rotation as this is the lowest energy state of the arm (you're applying energy, she is just letting her natural bone and joint structure take the load). The arm should not collapse in. If it does, then the joint alignments are not correct, and you will need to start 'rotating' the arm until it doesn't collapse.

Once she is comfortable with you pushing onto her arm so that it locks straight, it is simply a matter of changing the wrist and hand rotation (but not the arm and elbow) to get a grip onto the bow. If she is gripping the bow, or had a incorrect hand position (too much hand on the grip) then it encourages the elbow to be in the wrong position, thus hitting her elbow. From the look of the picture it does seem she may have too much hand on the bow.

I've attached a diagram in regards to what I have been taught (and also what I advocate to my club members) on a good hand position.








In addition to this, you can also put a slight forward lean (only in as much as getting her head position so that it is above the balls of her feet) as it will open the shooting triangle a little to give better arm clearance.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm not saying that you shouldn't shoot with a properly aligned bow arm, but I just want to note that she seams to make the double-jointed thing work out pretty well... 

http://s4.assets.usoc.org/assets/images/article/photo/39063/full/IMG_4687.jpg


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Yep... It also looks like she has pretty large incentives :embara::zip::to open her stance up a bit and make it work....

What I cannot tell from that pic is whether her arm also bends inward a couple inches )the way my daughter's does) when it does that.


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## 3Three (Jan 24, 2009)

Like you mentioned before, i would look at the grip. One thing i noticed is that it looks like she is really heeling the bow in the picture. I have a similar problem (except my elbow doesnt bend quite that far in) but what seems to help me is getting my hand rotated around a little more, getting the bow to set more on the inside of my lifeline. The pressure point on my hand is directly between the lifeline and my thumb joint closest to my palm.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Thi is a quite common problems mainly in girls. 
Solutions possible are strictly related to the kind of grip style you are using/you can use. Unfortunately, in compound shooting you usually only have a low grip only, so solution is only one: open more the angle between arm and drawing line (shorten draw lenght). The arm slightly bent downward will also help a little bit, but is better to avoid it .
In recurve , first solution is to open the angle same as suggested but reclining a little bit more the head to the side, in order to keep the shoulders aligned with the bow arm. If this is not enough, then only possible solution is to switch to high grip profile and use the inner rotation of the bow shoulder as basic technique for the front shoulder position at the beginning of the traction. Then, the arm will follow and the elbow will rotate outward and up. Pls note thatthis technique is easily dangerous 
Simple half rotation of the elbow is not a solution, as will never give a stable position to the elbow joint and to the front shoulder.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Solutions above are certainly worth trying. However the VERY FIRST THING I would do is get the poor girl a full-length armguard!!! You need to remove all chances of the string causing her pain. This should be a primary consideration. Both my wife and my two daughters have this same issue and they WILL NOT SHOOT without a full-length armguard. And yes, they know all about rotating their arm and proper grip position. (my oldest would actually rotate her arm without moving her hand position just to freak boys out at school ! ha, ha.)

After you get the full-length armguard for her, then follow the advice above...


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Vittorio,
I have heard this elbow issue is quite common in women - as is having a cross dominant eye (which she and my wife have, the youngest is ALL LEFTY). Is there any reason NOT to buy (or make if need be) a custom grip for her compound that is higher wrist - Especially considering that at some point I will also be getting her a recurve. I personally dislike the low\nonexistent grips they have on compounds these days, but maybe that's just my own bias.

Limbwalker - the full length armgurads are already on their way from Lancaster for all three of my girls.... Placed the order Monday....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Limbwalker - the full length armgurads are already on their way from Lancaster for all three of my girls.... Placed the order Monday....


Glad to hear it. It's made all the difference with my girls. The difference between just enjoying thier time shooting, and not wanting to do it at all...

John


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

hockeyref said:


> Vittorio,
> I have heard this elbow issue is quite common in women - as is having a cross dominant eye (which she and my wife have, the youngest is ALL LEFTY). Is there any reason NOT to buy (or make if need be) a custom grip for her compound that is higher wrist - Especially considering that at some point I will also be getting her a recurve. I personally dislike the low\nonexistent grips they have on compounds these days, but maybe that's just my own bias.
> 
> Limbwalker - the full length armgurads are already on their way from Lancaster for all three of my girls.... Placed the order Monday....


Low wrist position for compound is a necessity, while for recurve is a choice. 
The reason comes to the need to balance bow/stabilizer weight with holding force at full traction. Compound hold can go from around 12 to maximum 35 (if you go a lot in the wall), but for girls it remains in the very low range. Recurve is from 30 to 40 average. Compound bow is basically 0.5 to 1kg heavier than recurve, without stabilizers. Moving mass in a lower position to the holding point helps to balance it with lower holding force, and this is felt immediately by the archer, that easily perceives a lower grip as the most stable to keep a bow in the line. With high grip, things go opposite. The bow is immediately felt to be heavier and the archer immediately tends to reduce masses on stabilizers, but while in recurve is possible to get a proper balance of the bow with lighter stabilizers, with compound bow you will easily end up to stbilizer(s) almost without weight, that will practically be useless. 
Situation will change a little bit when light carbon riser compound will be commercially available (<1.4 kg ), but now those 0.5 kg more still favour a low grip choice.
Anyhow, you can surely modify the hand position on the compound by making a dedicted (low) grip slightly moved to the outside: I have done it for my Hoyt compound in order not to touch the back bridge with the wrist. It is a "ball style" grip and it works. But adjustement of the final point of pressure is quite critical and I do not suggest to go this way as a solution for your daughter.

Limbwalker, when I started archery in the 70's the basic teaching was including elbow rotation. I was teched to go to shooting position against the border of an open door and to (try to) rotate the elbow outside and keep it steady while pressing body weight against it. It took some time, but then we all all were able to do so wihtout too much effort, and even now I can rotate my elbow without rotaing the hand like your doughter does.
But many many years after I have found that this is NOT a good solution for shooting. Under the pressuru of the bow at full traction, it is extremely difficult to keep the the elbow inner part at least parallel to the string. Angle will ever change a little, even if you train a lot, and unstability in many shooting situation will easily take over.
So since years I only coach low wrist/elbow/shoulder shooting with some few exception to high wrist/ouward rotated up elbow/inner rotated low shoulder specifically for young ladies that have hokeyref's doughters problem. Of course, with a long armguard for them...


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

FYI, when needed a long arm guard can be easily made using 2 normal sized arm guards and some, YES "DuckTape". Tape the two guards together allowing the area where they butt together to flex for a joint on the elbow. Tape used on the outside and inside surfaces works well.

Regards,

Tom


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## zaphod2002 (Dec 18, 2010)

I am by no means an expert, but my daughter (10) beat this (mostly) with about 6 weeks of concentrating on arm position daily with a stretch band. It does not hurt as much when it pops you. She would get the arm in the position - then raise it to simulate shooting, then check her arm position (or I would while watching her) before concentrating on the release. If she was not in the correct position she would let down and start over. She now does not think about it. We were told by her JOAD coach that you do not want to make the correction at full draw as it can lead to shoulder problems.


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## Allelbows (Aug 30, 2021)

hockeyref said:


> I should have thought to post this here instead of the general forum...
> 
> Finally bought my daughter a new bow and we now have a biomechanical problem to work around. I need suggestions on how to describe\train a nice straight bow arm when the shooter is double-jointed. Sometimes she does it right, but when she does it wrong the string bites her hard. She's getting frustrated because she says, " I can't help it or control it - that's how my arm naturaly goes"..... Some of it could be fatigue - or plain slopiness - as she did realy well initially. OR, it may be related to the death grip she has with the bow hand. I've discussed the "shot routine" with her and related it to what she does during rifle matches.
> 
> ...


It's the grip. I have this issue. Our arms don't bend right but if you get her to adjust her grip on the bow she can avoid the sting.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

her problem is she is holding up the bow.This causes her to grip the bow with the wrist up and down which in turn leaves the arm with the elbow in a down position and puts the arm in the strings path. She should be pushing the bow away and orienting her arm and hand the same position as she would push a refrigerator away. This will put the wrist at a 45 degree angle and rotate the bow arm in a way that gives her maximum strength. This will rotate the arm out of the way of the string.

I spend quite a bit of time on this in my seminar.






pertinent part starts at 54:34


Chris


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