# Three fingers under release



## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

at first i loved it and it worked great. But on farther shots i kept hitting low. Then i switched to 1 up two down. This i'm actually doing better with and the arrow seems to fly a little bit cleaner since the string is pushing more evenly behind it if that makes any sense. UP close it works great....30 and beyond i found that more traditional way was better for me. I'd work on both. Sighting down the arrow is much easier with 3 under and if you're a gap shooter i think it's the better way to go.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

Thanks for the advice. I have only tried it short distance for indoor shooting. It will be interesting to see what happens outdoors. The snow is almost gone. I wonder if using both would confuse the aiming process. I don't gap shoot with either method at least not that I am aware of. 

Sei Hei


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I too switched to shooting 3 under and thought i was shooting better - i even ordered a new bow tillered for 3 under - but in time i realized it is bad - heres why

1. It is hard on the bow - because you are drawing more on the lower limb than the upper you are messing with the balance of the bow - and the bow is very hard to keep quite -no matter what you do.

2. Shooting 3 fingers under makes it nearly impossible to tune a bow for perfect arrow flight. When i shot three under i could never get my arrows to fly consitantly good bare shafted or through paper - the only ways to really test your tuning. 

3. When i shot three under i had to knock incredibly high - 7/8" above center - now that i shoot split finger - i nock 2/8" above center - and my arrows fly perfect and consistenly.

4. I shoot leagues all year long - and when i switched back to split finger my scores improved dramatically.

5. The vast majority of great archers always shot split finger - Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Fred Asbel, Byron Fergesson, the Olympic shooters, etc..etc..etc... 


Now that being said - there are a handful of guys who make it work - there is even one guy who shoots with two fingers under - and from what i understand he is pretty good - Scott something or another, but i would never go back to that inferior method of shooting.


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

Inferior? Are you serious? Just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean its inferior. 

There are thousands of people who shoot 2/3 fingers-under and can get perfect arrow flight. IMHO paper tuning when shooting fingers is not a good idea. It'll get you in the ballpark, but its hard to eliminate tears at all distances. For fingers, bareshafting is a better indication of arrow flight. 3-under might require a high nocking point, but what's wrong with a high nocking point if you can get perfect arrow flight? 

fredwalker108,

From what I've noticed there really isn't too much of a difference between 3-under and split in terms of the actual shot mechanics. You can get clean releases using both methods. And for the record Olympic shooters mainly use split fingers to bring their point of aim farther out since they're shooting out to 90M. A lot of people use 3-under to gun barrel the arrow and to shorten their gaps if they gap shoot. But you can also get the same effect by using split fingers and anchoring higher up on your face. I gap shoot so I use 3-under to get the arrow under my eye. If I didn't have glasses on I'd probably go split and anchor higher. 

On my FITA bow I've played around with the tiller and I've noticed that the closer to even tiller my bow is the higher my nocking point is. 3-under can be louder on some bows, but that just seems like something you have to try out on your bow. If your bow is louder with 3-under try using some limbsavers (if you're not already) to stop the limbs from rattling/vibrating. 

BTW, for some 3-under may give you less string pinch than split if that's an issue.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

the pinching of the nock is what i was trying to get rid of with my 3 under release and that it did...and my bows ata was obscenely short...now i don't worry to much with my 69" longbow. Lumis is right on...the nocking point was raised on mine as well and it did work great. All in all i "feel" more confident at longer distances with split than 3 finger. I'd try both and see how it comes out.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

Hi Lumis 17,
I have a custom made modern long bow by Don Jackson. Don is a past olympian in 1972 . He shoots 3 under in 3D shoots as well. My point is that his bows are built to consider 3 fingers under and not affect the performance so I guess I am safe in this area. I too wear glasses.
I guess it is too early to tell for me but I did find I was shooting low when I switched but after a week of daily shooting I seem to be adjusting and finding the tarket again. I shoot at blank butts most of the time at this point to focus on technique noting the flight of the arrows and ease at which the process comes together. Am I on the right track???


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

Performance-wise I haven't seen a difference between 3-under and split on bows. The main difference seems to be that 3-under makes the limbs rattle a lot more on some bows. That's what I've noticed at least. There are tons of others who've been shooting longer than me, though, so someone else might have better knowledge of performance. 

Using the same anchor point, your sight picture is going to vary between 3-under and split. With split you're arrow is lower down in your sight picture than with 3-under. So when you go to 3-under your mind puts the arrow in the same place in your sight picture, which is too low. That's my theory at least, I'm sure others will disagree. I have the opposite problem if I try split fingers, I'll shoot high. 

It sounds like you're on the right track. What I would suggest is that you either use a sight (since you're using a longbow you might have to tape something to your bow) or use the point-of-aim method. Doing one of those will really tell you if you're form is consistent. To me there are two factors in shooting a bow, form and aiming. If you really want to see how your technique/form is, then use some type of reference point to take the aiming variable out of the equation. If you can shoot tight groups with a sight then you know your technique is working.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Lumis - in my experience - it is an inferior method of shooting.

You actually help make my point. You claim that paper testing with fingers is not a good idea - well - maybe not if you shoot 3-under - it never worked for me when i shot three under either, but now that I shoot split finger - i can shoot every arrow through paper perfectly (obviously after tuning them) - as can my wife, and my kids. I would love to demonstrate for ya, but that would not work well in this forum. 

My method of tuning is the following - i start with silencers that i can move up and down the limb without letting the bow down. Then i begin with a bare shaft in the correct spine range and dip and crest it as i will the rest of my arrows. I move the silencers close to the limb tips, but not all the way up - so i have some room for adjustments. I being with my nock about 5/8" above center and then start shooting - I cut the arrow as needed, and or change the point weight, or in the case of a carbon, add mass wieght to the nock or tip end as needed. Once i have the bare shaft shooting as perfect as i can tell - i then fletch my arrows. After they are fletched i shoot them through paper and do the really fine tuning by adjusting the silencers to either speed up or slow down the bow and make the arrows punch a "bullet" hole through paper. After I have done this - i can shoot a "bullet" hole through paper with every shoot at ranges from 6 feet from the paper to 20yards.

Now regarding string pinch - I draw 30" and shoot a 60" BW TF and have no problem at all - if you one is experiencing finger pinch - i suggest a longer or different style bow - perhaps one that is more deflexed. Also - you can start your draw with your fingers slightly apart - so that as you draw they are "pinched" together where they should be.

I believe that there is a reason that Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Byron Fergesson, Fred Asbel, etc... all shot with split fingers.

But again - i am not saying that a person cannot make 3-under work - obviously there are some that can - and do, but why mess with something that only a minority of shooters seem to be able to get to work well?

I am sorry if i sound soooo negative about this, but man - i wasted a year of shooting experience by messing with this method, and i was as hard-headed about it as the next 3-under shooter, but when i finally listened to another voice of reason - i found out that they were indeed correct - and my shooting scores improved quite a bit, my bow quited down dramatically, my tuning went from a nightmare to a joy, and, due to all of the above, i am a better archer for it. I just hate to see someone go down the path that i went - so i am a little emotional about it - what the heck - as long as you are having fun and the arrow is hitting the target to your satisfaction - what does it matter??


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## Slowbow (Jul 17, 2003)

I see nothing inferior with three fingers under.I have been building flat bows,longbows & recurves for several years now.I personaly use three under and will never do anything else.I tiller my personal bows this way.I know a lot of people who shoot slpit fingers ,it is whatever works for you. As far as finger pinch I think you get more with the split finger style.The only problem I have bare shafting at 20 yards is keeping nocks on my arrows.Just my 2 cents worth .Slowbow


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

Thank you for the input. 2 for 3under being fine
1 dead set against it.
1 says do both. 

It is great to hear the opinions of other experienced shooters. I realize that split finger is the most popular and I didn't use anything else until a week ago I just felt like experimenting and I was taken back by the way everything in my draw arm and back and shoulders seem to unify and relax. Although I shoot low because I do use the arrow for aiming, it has only taken a week of daily shooting to get things moved up.
I am not sure why shooting long distance should affect this form of release like was suggested but we are still in snow and freezing weather up here to try outdoor shooting with any comfort so I will have to wait a month to get outside.
I am gathering that it is really a matter of choice and that if it is most comfortable and natural this is what should be done. The bowyer that makes my bowes is a 3 finger under shooter so I am sure my bow (I call it Thunder Wolf) will not be negatively effected. It would be nice to hear from a few more shooters and I sure appreciate the time and experience shared by those who have made contact. 
Fred


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

If you can get perfect bullet holes while paper tuning all the way out to 20 yards then you must be doing something right. My experience, and virtually everyone I know, has been that trying to paper tune to get perfect bullet holes from a wide range of distances is almost impossible. I can get bullet holes with split or 3-under at one distance, but as soon as I take a step back there's a slight tear. Take a few steps and the tear is gone, then another and its back, etc. I mainly rely on bareshafting out to 30 yards. Before I bareshaft I paper tune my arrows until I get 1" tears from 5 yards to like 10 yards. I just do that so my bareshafts won't go flying off at 20 yards. 

But anyway, 3-under and split are both worth trying out. Twice actually, once in the beginning when you're starting out and then later on when you have your form all set. You never know if something you've changed in the beginning is the reason why you never got something to work when you first tried it.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

I paper tune almost exclusively and find with the proper combo of point weight, length, and spine I can always get bullet holes. I would tho advocate that you start your paper tuning no more than six (6) feet from the paper. You want to see exactly what the arrow is doing the minute it comes off the rest and before the fletchings have had an opporturnity to correct arrow flight. Once you get a bullet hole at six feet, you'll probably have bullet holes all the way back, provided your points are aligned properly, which can be confirmed with a simple spin test.


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

I just got into traditional shooting in October..so I dont know much. Most of my recurve shooting is 20 yard indoor and hopefully some 3D this year. Id never shot fingers before and started out split finger. My problem is that at 20 yrads and under..I had to aim a good foot below what I wanted to hit. The problem is that I like to see what Im trying to hit..in order to hit it. Staring at an "aiming point" sort of works...a few shots would hit the bullseye. But many shots would get sucked into hitting my "aiming point" Ive always found that if I stare the hell out of what I want to hit..I hit it. So by concentrating on somehting 12-14 inches low...my arrow was coming down and trying to hit, not the bullseye..but my aiming point. I fumbled around until I found 3 fingers under and managed to at least see what I wanted hit in my sight picture. This shot my scores way up in the SCA league shoots Ive been doing this winter. I went from about 110 to 168 in one shoot. In the one tournament Ive entered I shot 444 using 3 fingers under. I dont belive I could have come close to that by aiming way off the bullseye. If I cant see what I want to hit..I generally cant hit it. In terms of 3D..the shots will be 10-30 yrads mostly....which is not a big problem 3 fingers under. For the outdoor SCA stuff at 30 and 40 yards. I change my anchor from cheekbone..to 2nd finger in the corner of the mouth. This is still 3 under..but puts 30 yrads pretty much at the tip of the arrow. My problem with that style for all my shooting was that I kept cuttng my nose with the string..as I turn my head a fair bit when I shoot.
So...for me, 3 fingers seems to be working ok for the way I shoot. But as I said..I need to see waht I want to hit..in order to hit it. Im always amazed at the guys who can shoot bullseyes while looking at the 2 ring on a target face. I cant do it.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

if you keep aiming at the same location..i.e. aiming point and some hit the bull and some drop below, you're either collapsing on the shot or not coming to full draw. In my experience they are one in the same. Also make sure all your arrows are the same. I almost went out of my skull when i got some arrows with 85 gr. tips mixed in with 125's. Couldn't figure out why some were hitting high while the others were on the money. 

Today i learn what my body at full draw feels like...i know that sounds dumb but try to get intune with what's happening. That way you can assess certain problems as they arrise! 
hope that helps ya fin.


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

Nope...arrows all the same and draw is pretty much the same..Ive found the same thing shooting compounds with a hard back wall and a release aid for years. Even shooting 35 yard pin at a 30 yard target..20 yards at a 28 yard target..same deal...If Im concentrating totally on what Im looking at..I hit it..even if Im not aimed properly at it..or if my form is poor etc. Its like when you shoot a 3D and your arrow gets sucked into someone elses bright nock. Your pin may be on the 10 ring..but your eye and mind are on the nock...bingo..the arrow goes to the other arrow nock.


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Ever thought about going instinctive? I just stare at what I want to hit and shoot - no aiming (like throwing a rock). Sounds like you could do it fairly well with a bit of pratice (probably more consistent that what you describe) since you already hit what you are concentrating on.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

i shoot that way. if you get into guessing yards...it makes you second guess yourself more. Having faith in your shot is key in traditional archery in my opinion.


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## strcpy (Dec 13, 2003)

Yea, its nice shooting a round of 3d and not having to think about distance. Also can take some, hmm, interesting shots at the targets that are much harder if you aim.

Say, laying down on the ground, through brush while squatting or leaning around a tree, tons of different things. 

We play a game we call "Follow the leader" where someone picks a target and shooting position, closest to the target picks the next. Try to get as funky a position as you can think of. It gets quite interesting (Lay on this log, one foot on this fern, other on this branch, shoot head on turkey). Since some of the positions are horizontal aiming typically is quite difficult 

The game has actually improved my archery a great deal, kinda like shooting while someone is pestering you to learn to ignore what's going on around you.


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## Lancaster (Apr 19, 2003)

I've shot three under for the past few years and love it. Great consistancy and arrow flight.


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

You never hear about anyone shooting 3 over....makes you wonder.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

that's more compensation than most people want to deal with...lol...but now that you mention it yeah, it does make you wonder


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## 45-70cannon (Feb 10, 2004)

Ah, yes, the ol' instinctive "zen" method. Works, doesn't it!


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

I shoot 3 under and wouldn't change for anything.
Rick Welch is the greatest Traditional shooter who ever lived (15 world titles) (70 state titles) and shoots only 3 under.
I ordered my first recurve from Rick, followed his advice to shoot 3 under, and will never look back.
Shoot what you want but it's 3 under for me exclusively. 


Sag.


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

different strokes for different folks


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## Thunder Wolf (Mar 21, 2004)

When I started this thread I was looking for feedback and can see that it depends on what u find works. HMMMM guess many of you have said this already. At least now I am comfortable with shooting this way for a while. I am more comfortable with 3 under and until I find a good reason to change I guess it is 3 under for me. My mentor Don Jackson a 50 year experienced shooter shoots 3 under and has tried them all over the years he is a Candian Olypian 1972 but shoots more than target. He hunts shoots 3D builds the best bows in Canada so I am in good hands even though he also says "do what feels comfortable. Thanks all for sharing. My uncertainty is gone and will dig in with my new found assurance. It is great to read everyone's opinions
Maybe there will be a few more.

Thunder Wolf (Previously fred walker108)


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would really debate that Rick Welch is the greatest traditional archer that ever lived. I think that title belongs to Howard Hill - BY FAR!

I have never heard of Ricky Welch shooting apples off of peoples heads or cigs out of peoples mouths.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying he is bad or anything like that - but I don't buy that he is the greatest.


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

Is it just me, or is someone running around with an apple on their head just asking to have it shot off???

Personally, I have no trouble shooting an apple off someones head at up to 30 yards. It only gets really tricky if you include the monitor and the keyboard. Damn Mac users are so smug anyhow.  

A big factor to me, in terms of shooting 3 under is bow length. I cannot get comfortable split finger with my 52 or 58 inch bows. I can get comfortable enough using a tab shooting my 62" recurve. I cant hit anything shooting split finger..but I am "comfortable" holding the bow drawn. The shorter bows split finger give me a bad case of pinched fingers..but thats just me.


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## bluefletch3 (Jul 29, 2003)

*3 Under*

Do what works for you! Sharpbroadhead ain't too sharp by stating 3-under is inferior...this is like saying the people from Florida shouldn't vote this year cause they can't poke out a chad. Just cause it didn't work for them doesn't mean voting doesn't work. You gotta be smarter than the equipment! There's a ton of archers out there shooting excellent scores 3-under....stop trying to be Fred Bear....you ain't! Be yourself! Paper shooting a recurve? Still floating them shafts in the tub? Get out of here! You guys slay me! Never diss what doesn't work for you...seek to understand how and why other archers do what they do...and like a cafeteria...take what you want and leave the rest!


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## bluefletch3 (Jul 29, 2003)

*Apples?*

Oh yeah....by the way....I'm not volunteering for the apple gig but my boss might be interested!


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## Ossage (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm on both sides of this. On the one hand, I haven't met anyone who shoots three under with sights. I have met a few who shoot two under or even one under with very short compounds in classes that require fingers. But in general the Olympic crowd doesn't seem to feel there is a lot of point to 3 under. i don't see that it wins as a release, for instance take something like flight shooting, does 3 under have a smoother release, and win all the comps (or is it banned)

The people who do shoot three under seem mostly to prefer it because they find it "sights" better. So on one side of the argument one can say don't knock 3 under, if you really try you can get good arrow flight and a quiet bow. On the other side they can say try split finger, if you work at it you can learn to hit what you are pointing at.

I also don't think it maters how Howard Hill shot, since the archery tradition of the day was for split. I basiclay prefer his style, but I recognize it was heavily culturaly influenced. Also, Hill is famous for among other things some pretty long shots. That being the case, I fail to see the advantge of 3 under. There are many reports of his shooting deer at from 60 to 160 yards. The modern 3 D guy with a 35 yard limit can well justify shooting at targets with 3 under.

Poor technique is what causes pinch, unless you are just way too short in bow length for a particular design. The key is to place the finger on the side without the nock, against the arrow, to help hold it in position. Hill nocked the arrow above the point, while modern archers generaly nock below, but whichever, just place the opposite finger lightly against the arrow for security. Place the other finger about 1/8" away from the arrow, 1/16', or whatever. As you draw back, the string angle will compress your fingers, unless they start a tiny bit loose, they will pinch against the shaft. You must maintain your finger spacing despite the string pressure. This is the technique used by Olympians or Hillians alike.


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

I just cant see down the arrow shaft with split finger. If I shot with a sight, like in olympic...this wouldnt be a problem. I know I shot my fiberglass longbow with split finger when I was a kid..but now I cant get comfortable with it in terms of aiming and anchor point.


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## Thunder Wolf (Mar 21, 2004)

I have been shooting 1000 arrows a week in the last two weeks and have been using 3 under. I am finding that my drawing hand is working more as a single unit, if this makes any sense. My hand is relaxed with all fingers evenly involved which seems to translate down the arm into the back which assists with the shoulder and back lining up and relaxing. Too early to tell. Maybe another month or two of this volume of shooting will be more conclusive especially if I try shooting split finger again at that time to compare. HMMMM    


Thunder Wolf


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

If Howard Hill were here in his prime and shot 10 matches against Rick Welch, Rick would beat him 10 to ZERO.
...And do it quite easily.
GUARANTEED!!! 

Sag.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

Hill or Welch. Hummm Given the circumstances equipment and other variables, it may be a case of comparing apples to oranges. Never heard of Rick Welch but I am from Canada Ontario.

This thread on 3 under vrs split has created some very interesting opinions and a large volume of hits. Fun aye 
Sure enjoy reading about approaches. I am learning a lot and going shooting with advice in mind. It is great to have so many years of experience shared freely from such a wide range of individuals. I am sure there are still more out there but probably little to add to the subject. I am still on 3 under and so far the only thing that concerns me is longer distance shooting. I have not tried it yet but most are saying 3 under will not work of 35 to 40 yards which is not that importand if you is hunting, but why use a limited method, if this is really so. Soon as the weather permits and I can get outside I will find out. Anyone out there address this problem with 3 under and shooting long distance???
sure would like to hear  

Thunder Wolf


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Fred - 

It depends on how, and where, you anchor. The closer the arrow (nock) is to your eye, the small the gap, and so you reach your point on distance closer. That could limit distance. There have been postulates about 3under upsetting the tiller on some bows, I guess it's possible, but hasn't seemed to hurt any of the folks I've seen to it. 

I shoot split finger, index finger in the corner of my mouth and thumb web under my jaw. It's pretty solid. The idea of a nock failure, that close to my eye, is something I just don't want to have to deal with. Not sure if it's a rational fear or not, but I stay where I am, for now.

Viper1 out.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

nock failure!!!!!!  


That is a new one to think about being so close to the eye. 

I don't look down the arrow when shooting at least not consciously. I look at the target but I guess the distance of arrow point from target is internallized subconsciously. Havn't got that far yet with my shooting still working on technique but don't want to have to change anchor soon as I move to aiming.

Thanks interesting observations.

Fred


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Fred -

Happily nock failures aren't too frequent, probably experienced less than a dozen in 35 years of shooting. But when they happen they are tantamount to a dry fire, occassionally with a nock ear flying off.

Can just be a bad nock, too much glue or most often one that's been hit by another arrow, and sustained some undetected damage.

Something else to think about.

Viper1 out.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

What do you mean too much glue??? I do my own assembly. Perhaps I am doing something wrong. Better to know before the fact. 

Fred


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Fred -

Glues like fletch tite (or even duco cement, I guess; never used it oon nocks) can soften the butyrate that most nocks are made out of. That "may" weaken them. I just put a small loop around and deep to the mouth of the nock, then twist it on, aligning it to the cock feather. I'm talking about aluminum arrows or aluminum inserts here. I guess if you see the sides of the nock dimpling, you've used too much  .

Most folks who are careful about waht they are doing, shouldn't experience this, but there's always the "more is better" crowd  .

Viper1 out.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

Thank you viper1 for the information. Really appreciate your sharing. I am aware of how valuable information is as well as time saving. Your experience and willness to share is commendable. 

Have a fantastic day.

Thunder Wolf ( Fred)


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Fred - 

douitashimashete sensei

(misspelling intentional to bypass the sites's filters)

Viper1 out.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Most of the reasons I've heard for shooting 3-under involve aiming.

I'm just starting to have success aiming 'by feel', rather than 'by sight'. That is, seeing the arrow is becoming less important. Feeling pressure points on my bow hand and string hand is a good way to aim -- just align them with what you are looking at. Thus, the choice to shoot 3-under or split-finger is no longer determined by how easy it is to aim -- it is determined by how clean a release it gives you.


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## fredwalker108 (Mar 12, 2004)

Byron Ferguson says and I am sure most everyone agrees, that having the arrow closer to the eye makes for less adjustment on the part of the brain. It would follow that 3 under lifting the arrow closer to the eye would assit in learning and precision. Some gun barrell shoot consciously and others subconsciouly. Peronally if one gap shoots or barrel shoot s,I think it interfers with the "instinctive" or intuitive skill development but this does not have to be the case just because one is using 3 under. Maybe it is me but having all 3 fingers together allows a more relaxed hand and easier to apply pressure to the individual fingers if need be. The "pull through" on release is earier for me with 3 finger also. I keep playing with both split and under ,and end up with 3 under and 2nd finger ancher as my position at this time in development. The greatest complaint I have heard is the distance shooting the bow hand will get in the way but I think moving to the index finger anchor will help in this department without changing to split finger. HMM  

Thunderwolf. (FRED)


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Haven't seen a post to this topic since indoor season.

I just tried 3-finger under outdoors -- it moves my point-blank range from 70 yards split-finger to 45 yards 3 fingers under. All of a sudden, aiming is easy.

Haven't tried it enough to know how tight the groups are. However -- if 3-fingers under allows you to hit more consistently with your first arrow, it may be better even if the groups are a bit larger.


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## longbowman43 (Jun 29, 2004)

I 'm looking for some clarification on this shooting 3 under. This is the first three fingers hooking on the string below the string nock? I shoot one finger above the arrow and two below. Thanks for your response.

longbowman43


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Yes.

It is an attempt to solve the problem of the point of the arrow being way below the target. When you shoot without a sight, about the only reference you have is the arrow -- 3 fingers under is one way to bring it close enough to what you are shooting at that you can use it as a reference.


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## longbowman43 (Jun 29, 2004)

Thanks ArcCaster for the information.

longbowman43


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello 

>>I understand the 3 finger under position for the draw is referred to as the apache style. I have recently adopted this form of shooting and would like some of you more experienced (which means just about everyong) to give me some feedback on the pros and cons of this method compared to the split finger.

I find it somehow more unifying. My hand is more relaxed and thus my drawing arm but I have only been shooting this way for a week.

Any advice would be much appreciated.<<<


Well IMO it works like this.... There are MANY things that will work for MANY different Archers. And there is NO single thing that will will work for all.

For me, I shoot both styles. When I hunt, I shoot 3 fingers under. When I shot indoor FITA Blackface, I shot 3 fingers under. In fact... MOST all barebowers that shoot indoor blackface and FITA shoot 3 fingers under. I shoot a 270 to 275 on barebow. There is a guy that shoots a consistant 280 to 285 barebow...I have shot next to him... amazing. But one thing is for sure... 3 fingers under is rule for indoor barebow. It helps with a "Point of Aim" and less of a gap. On my Conquest, I have a approximate 2 foot "Gap" when I shoot. I have some friends that are dead on with no gap. But shooting barebow indoors is a whole different ball game. I also shoot 6 5 inch feathers on my arrows with 175 grain tips on a 2315. to "bring up" point of reference or Gap.

Now...Outdoors... I shoot split fingers outdoors for range. I hunt 3 fingers under because I am less than 20 yards.

Thus, I am fully capable of switching from one to another without any problem... I have good releases both ways... and I pick the situation that I use it with.

Now to sum it all up... Pick the method that you hit the best with...the most accurate. Don't be afraid to try a different way, because sometimes that different way can be the ticket for you....but not for someone else. Sometimes you may have 2 different ways that work well for you...

I can nock with my index finger at my mouth corner, or I can nock with my middle finger there....Granted I am not as accurate with my middle finger, but I have been practicing it and can shoot fairly accurate with it... I probably shoot a 240 or so with middle finger on mouth corner. Not real good, but better than most folks can do. 240 is not competative, but it is a fun score to shoot for a barebower.

Go shoot! have fun... try everything... with seriousness and a ample chance. It may not work for me... but it may be the ticket for you.

Dwayne


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

What DwayneR said. Don't discard anything until you've tried it for awhile.

I will add one thing. I've found that shooting 3-under for long ranges (like field, hunter, or animal rounds) isn't as bad as I thought it'd be. Shooting past your point-on with both eyes open you can still find reference points to aim with. At 50 yards I put the spot between the arrow rest and the shelf. At 60 yards I put the edge of the shelf on the spot. At 70 yards I put my knuckle of my index finger to the right of the spot. That was before. Right now I moved my point-on closer and I'll probably need to use more of my hand as a sight at the longer distances. 

This is probably not "traditional" for a lot of you guys, but barebow is barebow and I'm still shooting within the rules!


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Holding the string with all his fingers under the nock seemed to work for this guy, whether he was winning the NAA National championship or hunting brown bears in Alaska.


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## Thunder Wolf (Mar 21, 2004)

Wow the discussion continues!!!! Well a few more thousand arrows have gone by since I started this thread and I am still using 3 under. While sorting out many other technique problems, 3 under has served me well. Still feeling that the relaxed form I am attempting is enhanced with this position. Like Rick Welch I find it more forgiving. You all down there in the big USA know Rick right. 15 world championships and 70 state. Up here I am being assisted by a past olympion and still at 72 years old nocking off provincial and national championships. DON JACKSON is his name and he too uses 3 under after over 50 years of experience and experimenting so I guess I will stick to it and see if I can give him a run for his money some day. Wow 72 and still at the top of the tournament circuit. Guess there is hope for us all. Great thing about archery aye. 

Thunderwolf (fredwalker108)


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## turkeyfoot22 (Apr 2, 2004)

Thunderwolf......got a good friend here in Ohio that has won your Ontario Trad Championships several times and even Pa's Denton Hill in 2000.....all with the a 3 under style in combo with point of aim shooting. A deadly system that most instinctive shooters find it hard to compete with May not be everyone;s cup of tea but works wonders for him....it may just be what the Dr ordered for you too....TF22


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## longbowman43 (Jun 29, 2004)

Wow! This is great information and now my next question is shooting three under do you have your string double nocked one above and one below the arrow? Or how do you have your string nocked shooting 3 under. I shoot 76" ntn longbow.


longbowman43


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## Thunder Wolf (Mar 21, 2004)

I shoot long bow laminated 66", only nock one on the top. Some like two for hunting to ensure the arrow stays where they want it while waiting for their shot. In my opinion as limited as it is, one is enough the second one only serves to slow things down and possibly affect your accuracy. Every bow is different and can be tuned to accept the second knock without too much problem. Just don't see the need.  
Going to Pennsylvania this month to the ETAR for the first time. Here it is a great weekend with lots to do and see. Will be camping with my wife (she shoots too)
Thunderwolf


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## coveredwagon (May 18, 2004)

I shoot 3 under with nock tied on top. This helps me feel the bottom of the arrow and ensure that the arrow doesn't fall or rise up the string when drawing.


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

I only shoot with 1 nock, but I know a few really good barebow shooters who say that you should use 2 nocks. They say that a nock on the bottom will keep the arrow from sliding down the string right after you release and it will give you a good reference for putting your fingers on the string at the same place everytime. 

If you do add a 2nd nock don't put it directly under the arrow. Leave room between the arrow and the nock point so that when the bow is drawn back the string angle isn't causing the bottom nock to pinch the arrow.

When I first switched from split to 3-under I was having the problem of spreading out/opening up my fingers after the release and it was causing my ring finger to take a beating against the string. For me I seem to have a better release when all my fingers stay together. It might be something to keep in mind if you're trying out 3-under.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

hello Longbowman,

LBM>>Wow! This is great information and now my next question is shooting three under do you have your string double nocked one above and one below the arrow? Or how do you have your string nocked shooting 3 under. I shoot 76" ntn longbow.<<

Another tough question to answer...and there is no right answer to this one.

First... you must look at the kind of shooting you are doing.

In barebow (when the last time I shot comp.) The rule was that your finger (or one of them) *must* touch the arrow. This kept archers from "String Walking" on the arrow. Now if you could somehow devise a way to "string walk" and keep at least one finger touching the arrow.....go ahead <g>. That was ok.


Now about the Nocks...I use one above. Thats it... I also do NOT use ANY kind of nock that "Clicks" on the string. Anything that clicks causes different release off the string. My index finger "holds" the arrow on the string. It holds it enough to keep it there... no more. When I release, it will always have a smooth flow off the string...because the nock does not "grip" the string...This works for *ME* it may not work for others. What I am saying, is try it... if you don't like it... fine...Try someone elses way... until you find what works BEST for you.

I used to use my own homemade nocks... I would use string, and half-hitch it to about 3/8 of a inch... then half-hitch over that to make it thicker...

Dwayne

Dwayne


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## pigpopper (May 21, 2004)

I finally took the time to read through this whole thread, and came to a conclusion: We all otta be sitting around a table with a pot of coffee and a tray of doughnuts, this has been one of the most amiable (hope I spelled that right) discussions of a subject I've seen on this site.

Years ago, before I started shooting recurves, my brother and I both shot compounds with fingers.He was having some tuning problems with a new bow and different arrows. We went to the local archery guru in his town, an old guy that probably was the lead longbowman at Agincourt. They tried this, that, something else, and nothing would make that bow shoot correctly. On a hunch, he had my brother try shooting three fingers under the nock, and everything came together. He didn't know why. I started shooting my compounds three under, didn't shoot any better, but it felt more comfortable. 
When I went to recurves, I just naturally kept shooting three under. I had to switch to a release for the compounds, to help keep my form correct with the two styles of bow, but that's another thread sometime. Anyway, during my learning curve, one of our customers that knows everything there is to know about archery (just ask him), told me it's not possible to shoot well with three under. The proper way was one over, two under, and at the release, the hand must come back and touch the shoulder(??). I tried it his way, tried some other suggestions from other traditionalists, finally got my mind straight, and started shooting the way that worked for me. 
And that is the point of this whole rambling post. I have a whoooole lot to learn yet about this traditional stuff, but one thing I know to be true about this whole archery game, whether compound or real bows: Archery is a very precise sport--you do precisely what works for you.
Now, would somebody pass me a doughnut, that chocolate one with the sprinkles? Thanks. Toodles. Pigpopper


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Pigpopper,

PP>>I tried it his way, tried some other suggestions from other traditionalists, finally got my mind straight, and started shooting the way that worked for me. 
And that is the point of this whole rambling post. I have a whoooole lot to learn yet about this traditional stuff, but one thing I know to be true about this whole archery game, whether compound or real bows: Archery is a very precise sport--you do precisely what works for you.
Now, would somebody pass me a doughnut, that chocolate one with the sprinkles? Thanks. Toodles. Pigpopper<<<

What you have done my friend, is learned one of the biggest lessons in Archery. If *anyone* tells you the only correct way to do such and such is....They know nothing about archery. The only know how to throw arrows with a bow at a target and hit sometimes.

Each of us have different body makeups. And each of these makeups produce different things on bows.... Best example that I can point out to you???? Don't Laugh!!! But Womens Breasts. (And some mens too!). Now you can't tell them to shoot like some men do....It hurts them.

My idea is this... Try each persons idea with the attitude that it *will* work. And give it a *honest* try. If it doesn't work... fine! Do something else. If it does work, or work better... Great!! what you have done, is learned a techique that works better for you, and when some other archer comes around with questions, you can say "Hey!... I tried this, and this worked for me". Why don't you try it??... And what you have done, is enlightened and enhanced the sport of Archery, to allow someone else to enjoy being a better Archer themselves.

Here, I am passing you a Chocolate covered Vanilla Twist donut...enjoy and thanks for listening.

Dwayne


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

If I listened to all the people who said that their way was the only way or the proper way I'd still be stuck at 20 yards trying to get all my arrows in a pie plate.

MMMMMMMMMM, dddddoooooonnnnnnnuuuuuuuutttttsssss....


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## longbowman43 (Jun 29, 2004)

This has definitely been a valuable discussion. Last nite I when out and tried the three under method and at ten yards the first shot was at the outer edge of the bull's eye. I was very pleased. I mounted the arrow under the nock and held it in place with my index finger, worked well. Please, pass the Boston creme donut and a cup of coffee . Thanks! But I couldn't stay out too long for the mosquitos were having a buffet on my account , but i will try it again. Thanks so much for all the all information.


longbowman43


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## longbowman43 (Jun 29, 2004)

I forgot to add my longbow is an English style with no arrow rest, you shoot it "off hand", as the English say.


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## starhawk (Jun 29, 2004)

After reading this post, I decided to try three under. I always shot split finger with a glove, but when I tried three under, my groups got consistently closer at 10 yards ( and closer to the bulls eye). I'm still just getting used to the new bow (Hatfiled Takedown 65#) and tuning and perfecting my form, but I think I'll stick with 3 under for awhile. I also noticed that the pain in my fingers is more consistent across all three with 3 under shooting, so it seems like I'm applying more consistent pressure across all three fingers; could also be contributing to the tighter groups. I also find it is easier to aim with 3 under. Haven't noticed any difference in noise or vibration.


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

I spent Nov-Dec learning traditional archery and struggling with split finger and not hitting with any accuracy. I switched to 3 under and have shot 443/600 in my first target event as well as two 4ths and a 3rd in 3D and several wins and top 3's in Medival target events....I really have tried split finger..but unless Im shooting sights and anchored on my chin..I just cant hit a danged thing.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Starhawk and Fin,

Fin>>I spent Nov-Dec learning traditional archery and struggling with split finger and not hitting with any accuracy. I switched to 3 under and have shot 443/600 in my first target event as well as two 4ths and a 3rd in 3D and several wins and top 3's in Medival target events....I really have tried split finger..but unless Im shooting sights and anchored on my chin..I just cant hit a danged thing.<<

Do not be surprised, if you find that on different bows, you will be shooting different releases. A Good example could be your Medival bow compared to your FITA. I have a couple of bows that I shoot differently. One I will shoot split, the other 3 under. Thus I am comfortable both ways, but will definitely shoot better if I use 3 under in BlackFace shooting. 

Enjoy yourselves... If it works for you... great... if not REMEMBER it!... because someday a person may be having problems, and that technic that is worthless to you, will be the answer for them!.

Dwayne


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

i got beat like a drum by a 3 fingers under shooter yesterday at state. He used it for aimin via split vision. I can see where it's easy with 3 under but split finger when i tried it was tough!


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## Wonderboy (May 17, 2004)

Three fingers under provides easier pull, hold, and release. Very clean on the release, provided you hold your backtension and don't pluck.

TFU, is used generally by the "gap shooters" and point aimers. While split is used mostly by the "instinctive" shooters. It all boils down to what works best for you.

Me, I'm a three finger under all the way!


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## Fin (Mar 20, 2004)

Ive tried both ways on the 62" Victory recurve...52" Shakespeare....54" Howatt....58" Chek-Mate...and my longbow. I shoot what I consider to be a mostly instinctive style (I do best when not thinking about the arrow tips placement..just the spot to hit). I simply cannot find a comfortable anchor or clean release with split finger. I like to look down the arrow and feel like Im tossing a ball to the target (If that makes sense) and I simply cant do it split.


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## ks_stickbow (Apr 22, 2004)

I've been shooting 3 under for about a year now. I shot split for as long as i can remember, but was having problems with consitancy in my release. I was always either applying to much or not enough pressure with my index finger and causing arrows to go high and low. On occasion i could get it right, but not all the time. Using 3 under i find all my fingers kind of apply equal pressure to the string. 

Yes I shoot lower using 3 under, but it's something that can be worked out easily. I shoot a HHB5 @ 43lbs, and it's deadly quiet. So is my mosshorn. I do have a short 26.5" draw


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## NDTracer (Jun 16, 2003)

Thanks all for the informative responses. I have tried both ways and am confused on what I am having happen. When I shoot 3 under I get good groups (for me anyway) out to about 20 yards. When I get beyond 20 the split (1up 2under) seems to be better. Now I would assume the nock location should change for one method over another but don't know. Why would these two techniques work for different ranges? 

BTW my nock is level which is probably way low to begin with. I am shooting a shorter recurve, don't know the length but believe it is a Browning Backpacker II.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

How do your arrows fly? Absolutely straight? Do they porpoise (kick up or down when they leave the bow)?


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello NDTracer

NDT>>Thanks all for the informative responses. I have tried both ways and am confused on what I am having happen. When I shoot 3 under I get good groups (for me anyway) out to about 20 yards. When I get beyond 20 the split (1up 2under) seems to be better. Now I would assume the nock location should change for one method over another but don't know. Why would these two techniques work for different ranges? <<

The reason why, is because the distance from the arrow nock is greater split fingered than it is 3 fingers under... The greater the distance between the ArrowNock and your eye, the more upward Angle your arrow will be shot at...

I use spit fingers for 3 yards and hit dead on... I shoot 3 fingers under for 20 or less and hit dead on. I will try to draw you a picture and attach it.

PS I hope you love my professional Artistic abilities...<g>

Dwayne


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## NDTracer (Jun 16, 2003)

Sorry about not explaining the arrow flight.

With 3 under they tend to porpose or fishtail (can't recall which) at longer distances. With split the feathers (5") seam to straighten it out beyond 20 or so.

As for the picture I am not saying the location of the group to the bull I am saying the size of the groups change. Neither is consistantly where I would like them to be.

What do you all find is a reasonable nock height to start tuning? I shoot off the shelf with bear fur cover using a glove.


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## K_N (Mar 14, 2003)

The winners of this years National IBO Triplecrown in the MTRD "Longbow" and the TH "recurve" classes. Ken Reading and Todd Skogen both shoot split finger so it cant be that bad.

I have tried 3 under and find I can shoot pretty good with it but it feels uncomfortable not beeing able to grip that arrow between two fingers at need. When hunting I leave my arrow nocked and grip the arrow incase I need to make a sudden movement.

If you want to string walk, 3 under is the only way you can do that with. It also works real good for point of aim shooters who sight straight down the arrow and aim higher or lower on the target depending on yardage. To much yardage calculating for me.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Ideally, you do not want the arrow to porpoise at any distance. It should fly like a dart.

Split finger, I would start at maybe 1/4 inch above level (that is really too low) -- shoot a couple at 20 yards, watch them porpoise. Tighten the string maybe 6 twists -- try again. Repeat until the pospoising disappears, which will probably be about 1/2 inch above level.

3 fingers under -- I'd move the nocking point up about half an inch higher -- you'll be almost an inch above level. As with split finger, work up to it gradually.

The best way to do this is with a couple of fletched shafts and a bareshaft. If your nocking point is off, the bareshaft will hit above or below the fletched ones. If it hits low, lower your nocking point -- if it hits high, raise it.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

> The winners of this years National IBO Triplecrown in the MTRD "Longbow" and the TH "recurve" classes. Ken Reading and Todd Skogen both shoot split finger so it cant be that bad.


Personally, I think split finger is great! 

The problem is that if you shoot with a low anchor, the arrow is too low to make a good aiming reference point. So, to bring the arrow point up to where you can use it as an aiming reference, you have three choices:
shoot split finger with a high anchor
shoot 3 under with a low anchor
or, if you shoot mostly really short range, shoot 3 under with a high anchor

I bet Ken and Todd have high anchors.


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## NDTracer (Jun 16, 2003)

Thanks
I will try playing with the nock location. I knew it wasn't right but didn't know where to start and my compound is level. I could see bad flight but couldn't find a good starting point.


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