# D-shaped Longbows VS RD Longbows VS "Rulings"?



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Was just wondering if anyone else thought like me in that certain organizations mandate "D-Shape Only" in their longbow class...i mean the way i hear it?..D-shapes are actually a touch more forgiving than an RD longbow while the RD longbow may be arguably a touch faster so to me?..it's a wash and just depends on what the individual archer prefers/buys/selects...yet there's governing bodies out there that choose to segragate the two?..which ultimately to me (an RD longbow owner) simply means "i won't be participating" as it's the only longbow i own and/or probably will ever own...so here's the rub...the way i figure?...these governing bodies are supposed to be PROMOTING not causing a lack of participation cause an archers personal longbow has a subtle RD design as the way i hear it?...the only criteria for a longbow is supposed to be that the string leaves the nock ends sans any limb contact..and 1/2 or better of the longbow offerings i see are of the RD flavor..so that means all those guys get to stay home cause they're not HH zealots or longbow purists?...or?...buy a new D-shaped longbow they wouldn't normally choose?...so unless it's to promote sales?...i don't get it...as i've not yet met a fellow archer in person who was so anal that they'd elect to segragate themselves from those lowly no good scoundrel RD longbow guys for reason of any unfair advantages so?..whazzup with that?...am i to be left believing that these governing bodies are more interested in serving the manufacturers bottom lines than the archers actual participation?..i mean it's not like we're tripping over fellow trad archers as it is...we're not a dime a dozen...our numbers are few and getting fewer with each passing decade so..why would any archery based organization invoke such a ruling?..as i find it rediculouse and ultimately self defeating in purpose..am i alone on this?

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## EnglishKev (Aug 8, 2009)

Over here, the two types of longbow have their own seperate classes.
Not a lot of help to you, but I thought you might like to know anyway.

Kev


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

EnglishKev said:


> Over here, the two types of longbow have their own seperate classes.
> Not a lot of help to you, but I thought you might like to know anyway.
> 
> Kev


Hey Kev....yeah..but the difs are night and day..as Steve Morley tells it like 90+% euro's shoot trad and less tha 10% shoot wheelbows..and those are shocking figures here as here?..it's exactly opposite..and since my fathers of english decent?...i'll share a lil saying he'd laugh and tell to me when i was young entitled...

*"Oh Those Crazy Americans!"*

First?...they heat their tea to make it hot...

Then?..they put ice in it to make it cold..

They put sugar in it to make it sweet..

Then lemon to make it sour..

They belch and say..."excuse me"...then?..

Fart and laugh like he11! :laugh:


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

It is their organization and they can set the rules! Oh and btw you can shoot a R/D bow but it just has to be made so it doesn't show any reflex at brace.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

It is another shining example of those making rules that have no real clue what they mean or their implications. That in my eyes is just plain foolish. As a LB shooter I agree and think it is silly. I understand that the traditional "D" shaped LB's perform less than most R/D LBs do, but they are still longbows.


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## Bowbodger (Apr 7, 2011)

Dont know why they came up with some of those restrictions either Jinkster. And if the rule says D-shaped only then that rules out the Hill style longbows like the one I own also as it is technically an American Flatbow type longbow and not the traditional English D-shaped or selfbow type longbow. 

Flatbows and R/D are each a bit faster and more efficient than a D-shape. I personally dont mind shooting 3-D and such with even compound guys. But then I am in it mostly for fun even though I try to improve constantly and beat my previous scores. I can see making the field somewhat even, but dont know if the guy with an R/D longbow really has much if any equipment advantage over the guy with a flatbow. Everything else being the same the R/D may shoot a wee bit flatter but part of the game is learning your equipment and where to hold at different ranges so cant see where that matter a whole lot. If I have to hold 3" higher at 30yards then the guy with the same draw weight and length R/D bow so what.


Jeff


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

marc weier said:


> It is their organization and they can set the rules!


so the dues paying general membership has no voice in the matter? 



marc weier said:


> *Oh and btw you can shoot a R/D bow but it just has to be made so it doesn't show any reflex at brace.*


That's even more comical! :laugh:

So who's eyeball gets to determine if said R/D bow is "showing" or not? :laugh:

sorry but it's just so rediculous to me it's laughable...but on the other hand?..it kinda pi$$es me off cause imho?..

it's definantly not in keeping with the promotion and best interests of trad archery.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Some orgs distinquish between traditional and modern longbow. I have seen traditional specify D shaped, but then I have also seen traditional as off the hand. I shoot one longbow tournament a year and shoot the modern class with a D shaped longbow with a shelf. Maybe we need 6 classes like compound has in NFAA. Anybody, want to start a committee to study this?


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> so the dues paying general membership has no voice in the matter?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since D-shape and hybrid longbows exist on a continuum, isn't there bound to be some that straddle the line? Maybe they need a third category, one for bows with perfectly straight limbs at brace.

I'm a recurve shooter so have no skin in the game but it seems arbitrary to me too. Maybe someone will post up a rational that makes sense, wouldn't be the first time I missed an important point.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Some orgs distinquish between traditional and modern longbow. I have seen traditional specify D shaped, but then I have also seen traditional as off the hand. I shoot one longbow tournament a year and shoot the modern class with a D shaped longbow with a shelf. Maybe we need 6 classes like compound has in NFAA. Anybody, want to start a committee to study this?


Only if you agree to be the Chair! :laugh: and if you do?...here's my offerings to the study...

It's come to my attention (via a thread on another site) that since days of old?..when a person referenced a "D-Shaped Longbow" they were actually making reference to the shape of the limbs cross-section and NOT it's braced profile..add the curved part of the D to the other side?...and ya have an ELB...take away the curve of the D and you have an american flatbow...but if they keep these segregating, pidgeon holing rulings going?..pretty soon there'll be just one guy showing up...the last one to make the rule that described his bow to a "T"! :laugh:

wasn't just separating longbows and recurves enough?...then again?..if 12 archers show up to 6 different classes i guess they get to save on trophies! :laugh:


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## Bowbodger (Apr 7, 2011)

I could see more divisions if there are a ton of traditional shooters, but at my local club the last four 3-D shoots I shot I was the only one shooting BB or barebow class, so if I turn in a scorecard I automatically win the class. We have some JOAD kids that shoot recurve and a one or two that shoot recurve but not Barebow on indoor but everyone else shoots compound and most shoot releases. There are a couple of guys that shoot fingers on compound but thats it.


More classes costs them more in trophies as I stated above all I have to do is show up and turn in a scorecard to win Barebow division.

Jeff


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bowbodger said:


> I could see more divisions if there are a ton of traditional shooters, but at my local club the last four 3-D shoots I shot I was the only one shooting BB or barebow class, so if I turn in a scorecard I automatically win the class. We have some JOAD kids that shoot recurve and a one or two that shoot recurve but not Barebow on indoor but everyone else shoots compound and most shoot releases. There are a couple of guys that shoot fingers on compound but thats it.
> 
> 
> More classes costs them more in trophies as I stated above all I have to do is show up and turn in a scorecard to win Barebow division.
> ...


Well?...i guess i'm being a little hinky here cause in reality i have several bows to choose from..and could just shoot a different class but...my thoughts are with those working men out there with families who hafta scrimp and save every dollar justa feel guilty about treating themselves to a bow at all...then show up to discover the rules changed and their spiffy new RD longbow ain't legal?..that ain't right.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Which org are you refering to?

If its NFAA then the rules follow IFAA. Those rules were decided by a majority of members, specifically because a heavily R/D bow with a heavy riser really shoots just like a recurve. Same reason they don't allow take-downs (although I'd personally like to see 2-piece bows allowed for travel).
Buying a bow which isn't class legal for your local org and then complaining about it is silly. Fit the equipment to the class or shoot with the class it will be allowed in (trad for NFAA).


-Grant


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I think people are conflating two separate "D-Shapes", one being a limb cross section and the other being the braced tiller.

The British Longbow Society requires that people shoot traditional English longbows, whose limbs have a D-shaped **cross section**.

The IFAA Longbow division requires a bow with limbs that form a continuous curve with no flat spots or reflex--a D-shaped **tiller**.

Competitive sports have to have rules, other wise they are just hobbies. So we all agree that we have to have rules. But everyone wants the rules to favor their favorite kind of bow and rule out any bows they think have a competitive advantage over them. 

Arguing that the D-tiller rule make no sense makes no sense. To have a longbow division at all is an arbitrary rule based on a an old design of bow. You have to define it somehow. Why have it if you are just going to let in R/D bows that are just recurves with longer areas of reflex?


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

JINKSTER said:


> the way i hear it?..D-shapes are actually a touch more forgiving than an RD longbow while the RD longbow may be arguably a touch faster


Same could be said for hybrids vs. recurves, so just shoot in the trad class. It would also allow you to keep shooting synthetic arrows (in most organizations at least).


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

And then there are traditional longbows that have been reflexed during construction (Perry reflex) , making them much faster like a R/D longbow , yet showing no visual difference from a regular straight limbed longbow ... Clearly a violation of somebody’s rules ...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> *"Oh Those Crazy Americans!"*
> 
> First?...they heat their tea to make it hot...
> 
> ...


LOL...so true! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Was just wondering if anyone else thought like me in that certain organizations mandate "D-Shape Only" in their longbow class...as i find it rediculouse and ultimately self defeating in purpose..am i alone on this?


I can understand if an organization is trying to make room for archers who basically like to shoot equipment to reinact a certain erra...but other than that I think the rules are ridiculous.

The way I see it...archery organizations should make classes based on 2 primary mind sets. Target Archery and Bowhunters and than subclasses such as Compound Target, Compound Bowhunter, FITA Style with sights, Trad Target Barebow, Trad Bowhunter and Primitve (no fiberglass).

Ray :shade:


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

We just shot 2 3D classes for many years ... Training wheel bows or “other” bows ... Simple ...


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Personally, they should keep it simple. Kind of like Ray's thinking on it. Trad Bowhunter could be a 3D class with any type of longbow or recurve with no additional equipment (no sights, etc...), shoot off the shelf, etc... As far as I'm concerned some knucklehead could show up with a tricked out ILF recurve set up, and still be stomped by some oldtimer shooting a selfbow with wooden arrows. Its not the equipment its the archer.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

GPW said:


> We just shot 2 3D classes for many years ... Training wheel bows or “other” bows ... Simple ...


Simple? Absolutely! But I don't think you would get many people to attend a competition nowadays...unless it was PRIMARILY geared to just target archers.

In Target Archery...you will primarily see archers using the most advanced and top rated equipment they can afford...because believe it or not...equipment does play a roll in an archer's score. How much improvement is determined by exactly what we are comparing. In some cases it may only be an increase of only 1% and in others it maybe as much as 20%. A target archer is generally shooting to win and will use whatever they can that may give them an advantage. Bowhunting and reinactment archers don't necessarily do that.

If we were all shooting machines...than equipment becomes less important....but because we're human we can make minor shooting mistakes and our choice in equipment can reduce the effects of shooter error to some extent or make it easier for an archer to become more consistent.

There's a reason why we don't see primitive selfbows and arrows in today's Olympics.

Bowhunter's or reinactors on the other hand choose equipment for different reasons and generally practice at distances they will shoot at an animal from. Some archers even base some of their equipment choices based on the added challenge of it.

Years ago...in Howard Hill's day...they were shooting at animals at a 100yrds. away...which would be considered highly unethical today...so for todays bowhunter...it doesn't make sense to shoot targets at such long distances or anything much beyond the distances they will be shooting from while hunting.

When we factor all that into a bowhunter's mind set....at those distances...equipment becomes less important and really shouldn't be nit picked apart into different classes. 

An archer shooting in the Bowhunter's Class....should use whatever is determined to be typical hunting equipment...and in the Target Class...equipment will be chosen based on how well an archer can exploit those choices in equipment.

Ray :shade:


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

The Key word to all this commotion is “Competition” ... Notice there was no mention of FUN in there ... Some guys just like to hang out, "shoot the Bull" ,drink Beer and shoot arrows ... Winning is Nice , but it’s Not Everything ...  In the past we’ve seen a Lot of seriously competitive guys , get really frustrated because they couldn’t win every time , and just give up and go away , never to be seen again ... The old Fun “other” crowd was always there early . laughing it up , and having a really great time ... The only rules , have Fun , don’t get Stupid !!!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

GPW said:


> The Key word to all this commotion is “Competition” ... Notice there was no mention of FUN in there ... Some guys just like to hang out, "shoot the Bull" ,drink Beer and shoot arrows


I totally agree....and some bowhunters like myself love to compete. I love to compete against anyone even archers shooting compound bows, sights and releases...but at the same time...I acknowledge the advantages and disadvantages that certain equipment choices may have.

If I'm going to compete and my only goal is to win...than I'm going to use whatever I can that gives me the greatest advantage under the current class rules...BUT... I also like the idea of competeing with other bowhunters...under similar hunting circumstances...with bowhunting gear.

There is a difference in mind sets between Target Archers and Bowhunters...and I believe we are doing a disservice to the archery community by not acknowledging or recognizing that fact.

Ray :shade:


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

"There is a difference in mind sets between Target Archers and Bowhunters...and I believe we are doing a disservice to the archery community by not acknowledging or recognizing that fact.” 

True Dat !!! :thumbs_up


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## EnglishKev (Aug 8, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Hey Kev....yeah..but the difs are night and day..as Steve Morley tells it like 90+% euro's shoot trad and less tha 10% shoot wheelbows..and those are shocking figures here as here?..it's exactly opposite..and since my fathers of english decent?...i'll share a lil saying he'd laugh and tell to me when i was young entitled.


Hey Jinkster, I would estimate at our NFAS open shoots, more like 70% trad/30% compound and crossbow.
We have 6 traditional (Primitive, 2 Longbow, 3 Recurve) classifications, and 4 for the others (3 compound, 1 Xbow).
If you shoot a compound with a release (as I do) you have one class only available, our top class, Unlimited.

The longbows are divided into 'Longbow' and AFB (American Flat Bow).
The Longbow has to have D section limbs and when unstrung, the limbs have to be straight, or at least not angled away from the archer.
The AFB limbs must form one continuous curve when braced, no curving away from the archer is allowed.
If they do, you have to shoot them in one of the recurve classes.
Also, both LB and AFB must be one piece, no takedowns allowed.

Kev


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Kev -

I like those longbow class designations !

Looks like my Abbott would be AFB class.

How are the recurves divided ???


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

The IBO rules are the same for LB class with the exception of Trad Worlds..there is a MLB class in Trad Worlds and not in all other events.

*IBO Trad Rules*

2. Longbow (LB)
a. Bow – One-piece, or two-piece take-down at all IBO events.
b. Arrow – Must be wood, bamboo or cane.

A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers,
archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and
anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot.
The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No
sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring
(intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker
may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood and shall be identical in length, weight, and color
(allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. No
soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or
strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a
hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. The shelf may not be built up in a manner that
will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is that the shelf meets
the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and
separation from the bow riser. Archers will shoot from the White stake.

A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications:

1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow.
2. The riser should be cut no closer than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, however, if
a riser is cut less than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, a pad may be added so that the
arrow rests on a surface no closer than 1/8 inch outside the centerline of bow. To measure 1/8” out of
center mark the center of the top and bottom limb then line the bow string up on both lines. The
outermost edge of the strikplate, located in the sight window, must be 1/8” left of the string when
centered for a right handed bow and 1/8” right of center for a left handed bow.
3. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a
bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows.
4. A longbow may have a draw weight of up to 90 pounds (measured at the face edge of the bow at the
arrow shelf at 28 inches draw).


3. Modern Longbow (MLB)
a. Bow – Can be of any design as long as string only touches string grove or bow tip.
b. Arrow – an arrow of any material may be used. Aluminum or carbon arrows must have
screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue on points. All arrows must have at least three (3)
feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long.

A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers.
Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and
anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot.
The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No
sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring
(intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be
allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of
any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows
shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1)
inch above the arrow. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to
build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side
of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. The shelf may not be built
up in a manner that will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is
that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that
provides clearance and separation from the bow riser. Archers will shoot from the Orange stake.

*IBO Rules other than Trad Worlds*

15. Longbow (LB)
A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted.
17
No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood and shall be identical in length, weight, and color (allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. LB archers will shoot from the white stake.
A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications:
1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow.
2. The riser should be cut no closer than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, however, if a riser is cut less than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, a pad may be added so that the arrow rests on a surface no closer than 1/8 inch outside the centerline of bow.
3. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows.
4. A longbow may have a draw weight of up to 90 pounds (measured at the face edge of the bow at the arrow shelf at 28 inches draw)

There is no MLB class in the standard 2012 Rules on the IBO website it does appear in the Trad world rules as cited above.



*Compare that to the rules of ASA (I shoot ASA too)*

Traditional 25 yards

Bow must be either recurve or longbow without wheels or cams. No release aid, no sights, a single stabilizer up to 12” in length measured from the point of attachment, no overdraws, no draw checks, must have one finger touching the arrow nock, and must use one consistent anchor point. No marks on the sight window, string, or bow to use as an aiming or judging reference. All arrows must be identical in size, weight and construction.

So in other words if you want to use a longbow in ASA, you will be competing directly with Olympic style bows with stabilizers..which I did in Paris TX this spring.


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## EnglishKev (Aug 8, 2009)

Dewey3 said:


> Kev -
> 
> I like those longbow class designations !
> 
> ...


Hey Dewey,

I described them as 'recurve classes' but all three actually say ''A bow of any draw weight but not compound or Xbow''.
Hunting Tackle is no sights, rests allowed, wooden arrows fletched with natural feather, 1 finger above/2 below. 
Barebow is no sights, rests allowed, single stabalizer, any type of arrow, split or 3 under.
Freestyle are allowed sights (including adjustable) and complete freedom of choice in rests, stabs etc.

Kev


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Ray:
How would you deal with Scott Antczak or Ty Pelfrey showing up to shoot in the bowhunter class? Their hunting equipment is exactly the same as their competition rigs, just a different paintjob. Would you exclude them because they don't follow your definition of bowhunting?

This is where people have to realize that its competition FFS. The rules (which I don't necessarily agree with) are put in place to create a playing field which is as level as possible. The serious competitors will always rise to the top of every class, no matter what name or limitations you place upon it.

When the NFAA adopted (basically) then IFAA longbow rules I was somewhat disappointed. I had a few nice hybrids and to be honest its a lot easier/cheaper to find a high-performance hybrid then a IFAA legal bow. But then I realized something: if you want to compete at anything you need to match your equipment to the limits of the rules of the class. So if your LB doesn't meet the rules then just shoot it with the recurves, simple as that.

GPW: I'm not sure where you are coming from, but modern equipment is a devistating advantage. Since I picked-up a good ILF rig I have yet to lose to ANYONE shooting anything but a BB specific riser and good limbs. Thats at indoor and 3D, I get my self beat all the time at Field.

-Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Ray:
> How would you deal with Scott Antczak or Ty Pelfrey showing up to shoot in the bowhunter class? Their hunting equipment is exactly the same as their competition rigs, just a different paintjob. Would you exclude them because they don't follow your definition of bowhunting?
> 
> This is where people have to realize that its competition FFS. The rules (which I don't necessarily agree with) are put in place to create a playing field which is as level as possible. The serious competitors will always rise to the top of every class, no matter what name or limitations you place upon it.
> ...


Grant...you know i love ya brother...you've shared a lot of straight up info with me and you remind me of well?...a younger me (back when i was a state level compound/fingers shooter) but..you're sort of making Ray & GPW's point...as some are "in it to win it" and others?..well?...we're just happy to be there and our primary goals are fun and relaxation...and to be honest?..i almost veiw the "fun & relaxation" part as moving up a level..not down...as i typically do my best shooting when i'm completely relaxed and having fun.

Some of us have realized that the trouble with being "excrusiatingly accurate" is?...it's excrusiatingly stressful...and at times?...not really all that much fun...and while i fully agree with your statement of..._"The serious competitors will always rise to the top of every class, no matter what name or limitations you place upon it."_...it doesn't mean i wanna spend the day with'em..matter fact?..i saw a prime example of that today as 2 other trad shooters joined fatzboys and i at todays club 3D..one of'em was a well hearsed trad archer...the other?...a friend that came there with him?...wasn't..and while the well hearsed and very serious competitor was the one who darn near insisted we keep score and shoot from the appointed stakes got his way?..fatzboys and i both smoked him on the first round both of us besting him by 10+ points (and i had a clean miss)...as the serious competitor stressed himself right out of the game..the sad part?..it didn't end there as his somewhat newby buddy was struggling a little bit...so what did the "serious competitor" do?..(thinking he was helping him out by coaching him) started quietly (sidebar) hammering him about all the things he was doing wrong...the end result?...the poor guy did even worse...and went on to lose 1/2 his arrows at one point clean missing 5-6 targets in a row..i thought he was just gonna give up and go home but since he rode there with the "serious competitor"?...i guess his options were limited.

true story...happened today..just this morning...and put a very sad spin on what otherwise could've been a real fun shoot but..

we had (1) "very serious competitor" join us...and i'm left wondering if the newer archer will ever join us again as it was an extremely stessful...if not flat out embarassing day for him...with much thanks to his buddy...the "serious competitor".

so..how would i deal with scott or ty?...or any other "serious competitor"?...

I'd do my utmost best to make sure i was assigned to another group! :laugh:

That said?..there are "serious competitors" out there that i'd bend over backwards to join them...like Steve Morley, Jimmy Blackmon, Moebow (aka Arne) and even Ray here...as these are prime examples of the "Seasoned Serious Competitors"...who fully understand that many are there on any given day with a wide variety of goals in mind but still manage to keep fun first..and I like that! 

There...said my peace...and probably needed to vent after the BS i watched go down today! :laugh:

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

Having shot with Scott you should try to shoot with him! He is a great archer and great guy and will share info of asked.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

grantmac said:


> How would you deal with Scott Antczak or Ty Pelfrey showing up to shoot in the bowhunter class? Would you exclude them because they don't follow your definition of bowhunting?


I personally would NEVER exclude anyone from shooting under those circumstances!

Every competition or organization tries to draw some kind lines to some degree or another to try and make the classes some what fair. It's nearly impossible if not impossible to make everybody happy, so organizations should look at majorities to help them seperate the classes.

I personally think that if an archer honestly hunts with a full blown FITA rig...than they could shoot in a Bowhunter Class but that's me. I just don't believe their style or equipment has that much of an advantage under typical hunting circumstances and distances.

If it was up to me...I would set up a Bowhunters Class where some of the targets could only be shot in awkward positions such as having to kneel or crouch while shooting under branches or where an archer may have to cant their bow. I would also include some moving targets.

If they didn't like it....they could always shoot in the Target Class where there would be no moving targets or where they needed to shoot the targets from awkward positions.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Whatever rules you make somebody somewhere wont like them. Bill you shoot whatever Longbow you want in Miami, nobody minds that it's not 'D' shape.

IFAA are about to vote on relaxing Longbow rules, seems most Archers are for allowing a degree R/D when strung but still would like wood arrows shot in this Div.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"Whatever rules you make somebody somewhere wont like them." 

You aren't kidding!!........just be glad that archery shoots aren't like the car shows we have.................some have 100 cars... and 125 awards..............gotta keep everyone happy........


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm happy to shoot whatever rules, Fita 3D worlds I shot my IFAA legal 'D' shape Longbow against R/D Longbows and guys shooting 3 under, with 33yards max I didn't feel at any real disadvantage.

Only issues I've had with rules is IFAA and WA3D cant seem to make up their minds and keep changing stuff, pretty frustrating when all my Recurves (even the Pinnacle) now dont meet WA3D rules, I'm lucky that a German Bowyer TFK is making me a free WA3D legal Recurve bow. I just dont have the funds to buy a new bow every year.:thumbs_do


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> I'm happy to shoot whatever rules, Fita 3D worlds I shot my IFAA legal 'D' shape Longbow against R/D Longbows and guys shooting 3 under, with 33yards max I didn't feel at any real disadvantage.
> 
> Only issues I've had with rules is IFAA and WA3D cant seem to make up their minds and keep changing stuff, pretty frustrating when all my Recurves (even the Pinnacle) now dont meet WA3D rules, I'm lucky that a German Bowyer TFK is making me a free WA3D legal Recurve bow. *I just dont have the funds to buy a new bow every year.*:thumbs_do


which is exactly one of the several primary factors that drove me away from wheelbows...it became more about the products than the sport or the archers participating in it...and my only problem with "the rules" is why the he11 are there so many of'em?...cause of whiners?...cause as i understand it?...the basic definition of of longbow is rather simple...the string doesn't touch the belly of the limb...and that definition is waaaay older than any of the folks who thought it a good idea to bestow upon themselves the right to disqualify bows based on strung or unstrung profiles...to me it's rediculouse and don't quite understand why the masses tolerate such micro-managed, feeble minded hoopla...so is to cater to the whiners or the manufacturers?..cause the only ones paying for it are the silent masses...yet another prime example of the squeaky wheel gets the grease?...well..time for us average joes to start doing a lil squeaking of our own! :laugh:

and Steve..more than likely?...i'll be shooting the excel in miami!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Anyone who claims that there is a wash between a D shaped longbow and a R/D longbow has never shot both. I am not even a longbow shooter - But I have shot a Howard Hill Big Five a few times and a Martin Viper Longbow - and there is a HUGE difference - the Viper can be shot just like my recurves with an open hand and little or no handshock - it is center cut and it is as fast as most recurves - the Hill on the other hand is not center cut, it is loaded with hand shock and has to be gripped with a death crip and it has nowhere near the speed of most recurves.

If you want to argue that there is no or little difference and should not be a class distinction - then there should be no class distinctions between any trad bow - selfbows, longbows of any type and recurves should all be in the same class then.

I know that I could pick up a martin Viper and immediatly shoot at as well or nearly as well as my recurve - the same was not true when I tried to shoot a Hill longbow.

This whole "debate" is silly - the IBO has the best and most reasonable class distinctions for traditional hunters and the whiners will never be satisified and will always look for something to complain about - there is no perfect system - but the IBO system is as good as it can get.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

WA3D shooters have no say in rules,so dont see where the whining is there,IFAA allow R/D Longbows as long as they show 'D' shape when strung, Hill bows do shoot well with little or no handshock, they just shoot with better feel using heavy arrows. 

A modern Hybrid Longbow is a lot closer to Recurve feel than Longbow feel, I'm not quite sure where they fit in most tourney rules but the line has to be drawn somewhere, that line isn't always to everybodies likeing.



JINKSTER said:


> and Steve..more than likely?...i'll be shooting the excel in miami!


We will shoot together then :thumbs_up


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

I don't know about the Viper, but looking at IBO rules, it seems that my r/d Abbott could compete against a Hill, as both are "D" shaped (string touching only nocks) when strung ???


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

grantmac said:


> How would you deal with Scott Antczak or Ty Pelfrey showing up to shoot in the bowhunter class? Their hunting equipment is exactly the same as their competition rigs, just a different paintjob. Would you exclude them because they don't follow your definition of bowhunting?
> -Grant


That’s an excellent question and a prime example of how some of these “simple” ideas for shooting classes fall flat on the details. How does anyone propose to enforce separate shooting classes based on participants’ mindsets? Do we have them fill out questionnaires and take polygraph tests prior to registration? Do we split things up by draw weight? A friend of mine shoots a Fox longbow off the shelf and is not a bowhunter, so I guess he goes into the target shooter category. Scott shoots a decked out Spig 650, Winex limbs, elevated rest, plunger, counterweights, and a clicker for his hunting rig. So he goes into the bowhunter category. Yeah…that makes sense.

One other thing: why is it always the guys who claim to not care about serious competitive shooting (or outright disdain the practice) who complain the most about shooting classes and rules? My guess is either they do care and somehow think changing the rules will finally allow them to win something (see Voodoo’s post about car shows), or they have some sort of masochistic tendency that compels them to torture themselves by going to shoots.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Any archery organization has the responsibilty to try and draw more members or participants to their shoots or risk ending up becoming obsolete because of a lack of members or participation.

They can do that by making ridiculous classification rules to try and appeal to everyone or they can *simplify* it by trying to appeal to the *majority*.

Anyone can figure this out by putting in some time and research into what the majority of archers use for equipment and what their maximum shot distance typically is based on a simple survey. They do NOT do this to determine which class an archer belongs in at the day of the shoot. They do this *prior* to setting rules and regs for classes prior to the shoot.

IMO....splitting up classes based on draw weight is pretty much a moot point when you consider that most target archers use draw weights that are considered legal bowhunting weights....so IMO....as long as the draw weight is legal within the state that the competition is being held in...it qualifies for the Bowhunter Class.

One other thing: why is it always the guys who complain about archers trying to promote archery to further it's popularity that don't offer any suggestions on how to exactly do that?

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ray I dont think it's the rules.........I had some Danish Friends visit last Summer, they only shoot WA3D (max 33 yards) for them to shoot IFAA Field was very hard,most had never shot past 50 yards, they were all good 3D shooters and were always tight with me on 3 rounds but I was at least 100 points per day ahead of these guys on a Field course, Not that I was better than them just that their Bows were set for short range 3D and not long range Field,it is in my opinion IBO/Bowhunting that has killed NFAA Field and not the rules,it seems to me everybody is set for short range 3D and dont want to adjust their Form or bow setup for anything but IBO/Bowhunting.

No IBO and very little Bowhunting in Europe,Field is thriving and never been stronger. You can make whatever changes you want to the rules and it wont make a difference,even reducing distaces to 50y max in NFAA did nothing to help increase numbers.

Maybe one day it will come full circle and people will figure out again that NFAA Field is a cool challenge and not just for the wheelie guys.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

steve morley said:


> Hill bows do shoot well with little or no handshock, they just shoot with better feel using heavy arrows.


That may be true of many American flatbows, but most of the Howard Hill brand flatbows I've seen and shot (which is not many) have enormously thick limbs and small risers. I've found them to have a lot of handshock. O L Adcock made some Hill-style bows with this thin limbed ACS cros section. I expect they had no appreciable handshock.

You've shot way more longbows than I ever will, but I think whether a Hil style bow has handshock depends on the individual bow as well as the weight of the arrow.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

IMO...comparing Europe to America is like comparing apples and oranges.

I definitely believe we could learn something from Europe...but because bowhunting is so much more prevalent here in the USA it factors into many archers mind sets....so to appeal to that crowd...archery organizations here need to recognize and consider the different mind set that exists when compared to the mind set of many typical target archers.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> the basic definition of of longbow is rather simple...the string doesn't touch the belly of the limb...


Actually the oldest definition was that the bow be at least the height of a man. The current IFAA rules were created by the competitors when heavily R/D bows with massive risers that shot just like recurves were introduced and caused all sorts of havok among the Hill shooters, so it was 100% a member-driven decision. From what I can see NFAA/IBO rules are just following suit.
Plenty of classes to shoot your LB, just not in any LB-specific ones unless you shoot WA3D.



Dewey3 said:


> I don't know about the Viper, but looking at IBO rules, it seems that my r/d Abbott could compete against a Hill, as both are "D" shaped (string touching only nocks) when strung ???


Only if its a continuous curve towards the shooter when braced, it can't show any R/D at brace.



J. Wesbrock said:


> That’s an excellent question and a prime example of how some of these “simple” ideas for shooting classes fall flat on the details. How does anyone propose to enforce separate shooting classes based on participants’ mindsets? Do we have them fill out questionnaires and take polygraph tests prior to registration? Do we split things up by draw weight? A friend of mine shoots a Fox longbow off the shelf and is not a bowhunter, so I guess he goes into the target shooter category. Scott shoots a decked out Spig 650, Winex limbs, elevated rest, plunger, counterweights, and a clicker for his hunting rig. So he goes into the bowhunter category. Yeah…that makes sense.
> 
> One other thing: why is it always the guys who claim to not care about serious competitive shooting (or outright disdain the practice) who complain the most about shooting classes and rules? My guess is either they do care and somehow think changing the rules will finally allow them to win something (see Voodoo’s post about car shows), or they have some sort of masochistic tendency that compels them to torture themselves by going to shoots.


Seems that way sometimes doesn't it.

-Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

well this discussion is getting pretty good here so (self included) let's focus on the principles and not the personalities..shall we?.....

so here's my contention..and what i would call a prime example of extremes...

First?...my bushmen longbow....arguably?...an "american flatbow"...ironically the bowyer even chose the model name of "American Native"...it's 64"s long and very slender throughout the riser area and extremely lightweight yeilding some rather harsh hand shock (especially with lighter weight arrows) yet it's action-boo limbs are of a rather dramatic RD design..but we'll call this modern longbow?..MLB?

Next?: The Fox Triple Crown...oh it meets the D-shape profile rule (when strung) but...has a riser who's mass would rival or surpass that of many wood TD recurves with a pistol grip that puts my Bob Lee recurve to shame?...yet because it has a D-shape profile when strung?...that's a "real longbow" and mine aint? :laugh:

and?...the rules would infer that my RD designed bushmen in some way has an advantage over the Fox TC?

and since a pics worth a thousand words?...here's 6K worth...

here's a pic of my bushmen unstrung...










here's a pic of the Fox TC unstrung...










here's my bushmen strung...










here's the Fox TC strung...










here's a crossview of my bushmen riser..










here's a crossview of the Fox TC riser...










and i'm just trying to get a grip on what's going on here cause i'm finding it hard to believe that separate classes were generated whereby a guy with a Fox TC could opt to shoot in MLB yet it would be against the rules for me to compete against him because due to my bows RD limb design i somehow have an advantage over the guy shooting s Fox TC? :laugh:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> We will shoot together then :thumbs_up


Very much looking forward to it Steve! 

But i may have told a fib...cause if i can come up with the funds between now and then?..i might show up with a much higher end target rig than my current excel...but if not?...the excel will do!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Very much looking forward to it Steve!
> 
> But i may have told a fib...cause if i can come up with the funds between now and then?..i might show up with a much higher end target rig than my current excel...but if not?...the excel will do!


Excel is a fine riser, I was beaten by a guy with an Excel Riser and Border limbs at last years European champs, I'm currently setting up my Nilo for Field as well as 3D,it will make life easier for me not having to swap bows for different tourneys.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Jinx, it's the reflex that starts about mid limb on your lb that seperates the two. That's why I ordered the 21st.. strung and unstrung pic. I'm not saying the rules are right, it's just how it is 

View attachment 1418740


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

As evident in the many posts, the rules were probably made in response to certain complaints or instances....if there was one longbow class, and a guy with a reflex-deflex longbow outshot the d-shaped, Hill, or flatbow, or whatever...there was probably grumbling and complaints about unfairness...so they made Modern Longbow and Dshaped....it would be nice to just have recurve, longbow, etc...but Jason is right....those shooters who lost would find some excuse or reason why....hence the different classes.....

It reminds me of the Eagle Eye shoot at Denton Hill....you can qualify with any type arrow..but for the finals on Saturday, everyone must shoot wood.....you can't believe the amount of *****ing....but rules are rules, and are made for a reason or a reaction to a situation....


As far as what I shoot...whatever I take to a shoot...whatever class that puts me in, so be it......I won't change equipment to meet classifications...too many of them....

As far as field shooting here....in PA....longbow is any type, as long as string does not touch belly of limb, no elevated rests, and wood arrows....sooo, if I want to compete in longbow, I must conform.....no big deal.....

Lee


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> Jinx, it's the reflex that starts about mid limb on your lb that seperates the two. That's why I ordered the 21st.. strung and unstrung pic. I'm not saying the rules are right, it's just how it is
> 
> View attachment 1418740


I agree moose..and i really like the 21st century LB's...but i also like bamabow LB's and ozark mountain LB's and numerous others that have "other than" a D-shape profile when strung..some of'em are really wild looking with like a double dip RD profile and i think those look real cool in an almost mid-evil sort of way..but do folks truely believe they really offer up an advantage level worthy of class segregation?...i don't...and from what i see?..the difs in riser designs are far more performance enhancing than are any wiggles and jiggles in limb design...such as the Fox TC...both your 21st century and the TC meet the D-shape profile deal..but do i think it's fair that you be pitted against the TC with your 21st century?...nope...why?...cause while the TC is basically a one piece heavy mass, pistol grip recurve riser with longbow limbs laminated on?...your 21st century is all longbow baby..but the city fathers will turn a blind eye to longbows doning gargantuan recurve like riser designs yet hiss at the archer with an RD limb design labeling it a "hybrid"? :laugh:

and moose...to me?..it's not just the affect it has on private owners but...what about all those cottage level bowyers who poured their heart and soul into those RD designs?....now they get to lose sales over a ruling?...that makes absolutely no sense?

I dunno...guess the best thing to do is just let it go and shoot what i got..i just figured it would be nice if we could all shoot together.

and btw...i think the Fox TC is probably one badbutt bow but i also think it's riser design pushes the limits of what i'd call or envision as a longbow..to me?...the Fox TC is the epitomy of a MLB based on it's massive recurve like riser and despite it's strung D-shape profile.

jmho & L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

fotoguy said:


> it would be nice to just have recurve, longbow, etc...but Jason is right....those shooters who lost would find some excuse or reason why....hence the different classes.....
> 
> As far as what I shoot...whatever I take to a shoot...whatever class that puts me in, so be it......I won't change equipment to meet classifications...too many of them....
> 
> ...


I like your attitude and outlook there Lee...think i'm begining to adopt the same.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Jinx,

I think it would be next to impossible to get all three major organizations on the same page...I wouldn't feel at all at a disadvantage shooting the 21st against any hybrid, or longbow that had reflex in the limbs. The mass weight you mentioned is a small advantage but not anything I'd call class changing. In the end, it's still up to the shooter regardless of the equipment in hand. I also feel the takedown longbows that are 1/8" past center should be viewed as the same as equals as well. It's a simple portability issue..nothing more. I can't say I don't feel disadvantage when shooting an ASA shoot..I feel their rules are too lenient in the definitions. I have to shoot my 21st against recurves, with the options of 12" stabs. I do it anyway, and it doesn't affect the fun. I feel the ASA should have a LB class and recurve class.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

PS...I also feel what defines a longbow in both IBO and NFAA should include all limb profiles and risers..the rules in IBO say the string can only touch the nocks on either end..I think that pretty includes the Hybrids..the exception is Trad worlds where MLB can shoot carbon or aluminum arrows rather than wood only. I had a couple friends shoot at Trad Worlds and they placed in the top 10 over the weekend. I know one of them has a R/D longbow..I'll call him and ask what class they put him in after a while. A guy out of Columbia MO. won the MLB Championship title.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Personally I like the D shape ruling ... I also like competitions that allow wooden arrows only . Just as I like comp's that are open slather on 'longbow' and its definitions . 
IFAA longbow is king of the kids ... As I think that there needs to be a definable line that distinguishes a 'longbow' from its variants .... 

IMHO its kinda silly having a fella shooting a Hill style Longbow or ELB flinging woodies vs a 3 pce carbon laminate metal risered "longbow' that spits 300gn carbon arrows and suggesting that they are playing the same game . So at the bginning there does , I believe, need to be a pretty stringent ruling defing bow dimensions as the alternative is a free for all as long as the string doesn't touch the limbs , all in the name of "inclusion"


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The IFAA and IBO rules have been around for plenty long and NFAA just added the class this year (following those rules). If some cottage bowyer wants their bows to be shot in the IBO/IFAA or NFAA then they can make them conform to the rules. If they want them to win then they will make them as high performing as possible within those rules like the Fox Triple Crown, Zeta Trophy or Border Harrier Royale.

Jinks for someone who repeatedly claims to be not interested in competition you get pretty bent out of shape when asked to shoot in a category you feel puts you at an equipment disadvantage. Shoot in NFAA or IBO Trad class with your LB and have fun, let the serious LB shooters worry about building perfect matched woodies and getting a bow that conforms to the rules.
All the guys who shot LBs in the NFAA Trad class around here are mostly having to get new bows and wood arrows. Many have $1000s in bows they can't shoot in the new class. They aren't upset, they have been merrily shooting against ILF rigs for years now and taking home their share of the trophies. 
Its us recurve shooters who are concerned about being able to cut-it in the new class, mainly because the playing field is so level.

Whiners gonna whine, winners gonna win. Some things never change.

-Grant

P.S. I've got a Fox Triple in the mail to me as we speak. Complete with carbon limbs and micarta riser.


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

well said, ben and grantmac.....if I am going to shoot a competition shoot, and I read the rules and classes, I have two choices....participate and follow the rules for the class, or don't shoot.....plain and simple....whatever class I fall into with whatever bow I am shooting is where i shoot.....perhaps if I was a serious competitor, the different rules would be confusing and annoying, but those competitors are not usually the ones who complain and moan about it......they go into it with that understanding.....


lee


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Right on Lee,

Its not like they have multiple sets of rules and then just pull them from a hat on the day of the shoot (at least not the ones that follow national Orgs). Not looking them up before you buy some shiny new piece of kit and then complaining when you get bumped into another class is pretty weak.

-Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

hey fellers...i'm reading, i'm listening, i'm keeping an open mind..just tossing stuff out there that doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me, my eyes and my mind...and?..i've always had a bad habit of questioning authority and truth be known?..kudos to you guys for keeping up on all these rulings from all these orgs...me whine?..maybe a lil bit....but only because i don't quite understand why some of these rulings are in place..and like others i would like to see just the longbows and recurves separated..then again?..i fully agree with bens statement of...

_"IMHO its kinda silly having a fella shooting a Hill style Longbow or ELB flinging woodies vs a 3 pce carbon laminate metal risered "longbow' that spits 300gn carbon arrows and suggesting that they are playing the same game ."_

i dunno...but rather than getch'all riled up i'll just go where ever, shoot what i got and enjoy myself cause..

i don't need no stink'in rules!


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Good post about Scott, JRW and Marc and others...Scott hunts with the same setup that he shoots competition with, only paints the limbs and risers black on his hunting rig.....same arrows, poundage, rest, plunger, stabilizer, everything.....and by this picture he sent me....he seems to have the "bowhunter" thing down pretty well for a target shooter! 













Lee


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

> As far as field shooting here....in PA....longbow is any type, as long as string does not touch belly of limb, no elevated rests, and wood arrows....


Pretty sure there's no requirement for wood arrows for field in PA...


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

arrowwood....you are correct, it is not just wood arrows., i was mistaken, .but my point was that rules are made by organizations, and if a person intends to compete..then they should either accept the rules and compete with whatever their equipment dictates, or just not shoot.....


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Foto ... The Sole voice of Reason !!!!! :thumbs_up Also a good reason to have a number of different bows...


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## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

I've got a couple of 1959 Bear Alaskans. Bear described them as "semi-recurved" bows in their catalog. The string does not touch the limb except at the nock, and they have less R/D than my 2008 Martin Savannah "longbows"... 

My [email protected] Bear Alaskan semi recurve, Bear Tigercat recurve, Martin Savannah "longbow", and Kaya Khan horsebow all fling the same arrow about the same speed (less than 5 fps spread among 'em). The way the risers feel in my hand make more difference to how well I shoot them than the limb designs. As different as they look, they are all in the same class. I understand why, and it doesn't bother me. 

I have two old [email protected] Ben Pearson solid glass bows that would be longbows: D shape tiller at least when strung. About 60 fps slower than the bows above, but if they were all I had, I would be smiling when I shot them. Could probably beat some of youse guys w 'em too!


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