# Has anyone heard if the rules committee made a ruling on protest at Alabama in Semi's



## t8ter

Might take awhile DB,this situation is sticky 4 sure.I would not want to b on the committee 4 this.


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## Daniel Boone

t8ter said:


> Might take awhile DB,this situation is sticky 4 sure.I would not want to b on the committee 4 this.


I think we will hear something the first of the week. Im told the decision has been made. Rules committee simply listens to the protest and make the call. Not really that hard at all.
DB


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## sagecreek

Waiting on the O-fficial announcement.


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## carlosii

Since it doesn't concern me its none of my business.
I have no interest in stirring the pot. I'm sure ASA will deal with the matter.


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## osagebender

carlosii said:


> Since it doesn't concern me its none of my business.
> I have no interest in stirring the pot. I'm sure ASA will deal with the matter.


It concerns all of us, like it or not


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## Daniel Boone

osagebender said:


> It concerns all of us, like it or not


Anytime there anything that happens at a ASA event it is news. Just like any other sport in America! ASA will make its decision and we all will know eventually one way or another. 
DB


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## bucco921

What was the dispute about? Seems some of the threads were pulled that pertained to this.


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## Daniel Boone

bucco921 said:


> What was the dispute about? Seems some of the threads were pulled that pertained to this.


In Alabama there was a protest filed in the semi pro class against a archer who some felt was cheating. Word got around the event like a wildfire. ASA Rules committee has now to make the decision if the protest is worthy! Thread got pulled here because it got heated and many felt it shouldn't be discussed. Well hopefully we will hear the decision of the rules committee. Cheating is a serious thing and is news worthy to be discussed IMO! Im fully confident in the ASA rules committee will make a fair ruling for all those involved. 
DB


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## bucco921

Yeah, its an archery discussion forum, how dare we discuss a hot topic in the archery world....Thanks DB.


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## wpk

So what was said person accused of breaking


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## carlosii

I agree cheating can't be tolerated. However, I think judgement should not be made until the facts have been reviewed by the ASA committee and their decision has been made.

I usually agree with DB and respect his opinions. Hope others can see my point that we should not jump on people until the decision has been made.


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## sagecreek

I think the discussion was fine until names were mentioned. Details/hearsay fine, but leave the reputation out of it until an official ruling.


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## 12sonly

I requested the thread be pulled. person is innocent till proven guilty. I hate a cheater also, but the committee hasn't ruled yet.


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## Daniel Boone

12sonly said:


> I requested the thread be pulled. person is innocent till proven guilty. I hate a cheater also, but the committee hasn't ruled yet.


Committee has made it ruling. Some members here called and got the info direct from ASA. Not sure if ASA will make a statement but either the archers score will remain or be removed eventually. Hopefully we will all know something soon. 
DB


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## 12sonly

Daniel Boone said:


> Committee has made it ruling. Some members here called and got the info direct from ASA. Not sure if ASA will make a statement but either the archers score will remain or be removed eventually. Hopefully we will all know something soon.
> DB


No need to post anything negative until decision is made public.


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## bucco921

12sonly said:


> I requested the thread be pulled. person is innocent till proven guilty. I hate a cheater also, but the committee hasn't ruled yet.


I do understand what you are saying because I get worked up over the "I heard this buck was poached" threads in the hunting section. I don't mind the thread just when people start calling for a hanging without facts is what I dont like. Still don't see why it can't be discussed, but then again the AT mentality is to call for the hanging with 0 evidence. I guess I would have needed to see the original thread


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## tkhunter

I would be surprised if they say anything public. We had a similar situation at an ASA event in Ronoake in the semi division years ago and the shooter was privately DQed and nothing publicly was said about it. I think they may fell it puts a black eye on the sport they are trying to grow.


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## 12sonly

Names were posted, it really got nasty.I think in the u s you are innocent till proven guilty . I'm sure the ruling will be out Monday or Tuesday. If he is guilty post away. Just watch asa website. I can't see asa just DQing him if he is guilty they will make an example out of him. But like I said innocent till proven guilty.


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## Tallcatt

It is definitely a done deal. If ASA wants the public to know the results I am sure they will make an official announcement.


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## mainehunt

How would you know if the ASA ruling was accurate or not. What if they say he's guilty and he wasn't?


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## Daniel Boone

tkhunter said:


> I would be surprised if they say anything public. We had a similar situation at an ASA event in Ronoake in the semi division years ago and the shooter was privately DQed and nothing publicly was said about it. I think they may fell it puts a black eye on the sport they are trying to grow.


If they DQ him they will remove his score. I dont see ASA posting anything other than that. 
DB


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## sagecreek

mainehunt said:


> How would you know if the ASA ruling was accurate or not. What if they say he's guilty and he wasn't?


Really???

Give the committee some credit.


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## wpk

What was the rule or rules that where said to be broken


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## ncsurveyor

Pencil whipping


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## Daniel Boone

mainehunt said:


> How would you know if the ASA ruling was accurate or not. What if they say he's guilty and he wasn't?


Rules committee is the final ruling. Thats the way the game is played. If you dont like the ruling I would think you best find another assc.
DB


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## Blue X

in my opinion
That example setting thing can go two ways. 
I am not sure a asa committee or any committes findings would stand up in a court. I am not sure the evidence the need to make their decision is the same type of evidence it would take to convict someone in a real court. If they arent convicted then they may not be legally guilty. No matter what their findings, I think someone or some people or some organizations could very well end up in a defamation of character/slander law suit and lose really easy. Its a pretty big deal to globally trash someone's reputation unless you are going on facts that are written in stone and are in the public record. 

It aint backyard stickball where ur calling your cousin names, it a real live person. And you dont know anything unless you were there, and if you were, most of what you can testify to is not hard provable factual evidence. 

A written protest acusing someone of wrong doing and given to someone else if not proven to be 100% true is most certainly defamation of character. 

The only question remaining, Who might, will or could be the example.


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## Daniel Boone

Blue X said:


> in my opinion
> That example setting thing can go two ways.
> I am not sure a asa committee or any committes findings would stand up in a court. I am not sure the evidence the need to make their decision is the same type of evidence it would take to convict someone in a real court. If they arent convicted then they may not be legally guilty. No matter what their findings, I think someone or some people or some organizations could very well end up in a defamation of character/slander law suit and lose really easy. Its a pretty big deal to globally trash someone's reputation unless you are going on facts that are written in stone and are in the public record.
> 
> It aint backyard stickball where ur calling your cousin names, it a real live person. And you dont know anything unless you were there, and if you were, most of what you can testify to is not hard provable factual evidence.
> 
> A written protest acusing someone of wrong doing and given to someone else if not proven to be 100% true is most certainly defamation of character.
> 
> The only question remaining, Who might, will or could be the example.


It an archery competition with rules and guidelines. Seems that is what was done here. You can sue for any thing today but doesn't mean your going to win.
DB


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## Blue X

That dont mean anything. I have rules and guidelines at my house but if I crack someones head with a baseball bat for breaking them, that dont make it legal.


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## Daniel Boone

Blue X said:


> That dont mean anything. I have rules and guidelines at my house but if I crack someones head with a baseball bat for breaking them, that dont make it legal.


Whats your point. You can sue for anything today. ASA doing ever thing they can to give archers the best possible fair game. You got to set the rules and go by them. 
What not legal about having a contest with rules? We all agree when we sign up we will play by the rules and guidelines of ASA. Im a betting man and bet ASA has lawyers that can fight any law suit you throw at them. Not like they have not been the big show for many years and this is there first time enforcing the rules.
DB


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## ncsurveyor

It's not ASA's fault if someone gets trashed on AT. They can't get sued for that. If they choose to remove someone from their organization I'm sure they can without fear of lawsuit. ASA can't control the fallout that follows.


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## slammin12

looks like ASA has made their ruling...the accused score has been thrown out for one day...


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## 3rdplace

I guess this answers the question http://www.asaarchery.com/IP/index.php/scoring-system/current-tournament-scores


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## sagecreek

Thanks guys. I had just checked it early and found no change.


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## Dwiley

Did the CC ever determine what happened?? Did they DQ anyone? If the shooter didn't change score on card somebody sure did and who ever that someone is should be DQ'ed. I can understand not keeping the score because it was manipulated. 
But does this ruling make an easy way for 'someone' to manipulate another's scorecard to get their score kicked out???


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## ncsurveyor

slammin12 said:


> looks like ASA has made their ruling...the accused score has been thrown out for one day...


One day?


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## ncsurveyor

The name is gone from the scores, I wonder if there was a ban handed down?


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## sagecreek

ncsurveyor said:


> The name is gone from the scores, I wonder if there was a ban handed down?


Name is still there, close to the bottom of the list. Saturday score was not protested apparently.


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## klshooter

You know what, I'm sick of people that were not there saying some one else changed his score card I was in the group I can tell you only 3 people handled those score cards the two score keepers and the accused no one wanted too file a protest ,when we saw the score card was changed we asked a range official what to do and then they sent Don from the ASA I'm not sure who filed the protest but it was warranted I had nothing to gain from getting this guy dqed and too insuate Dicky deeitt or jay moon was out to get him is totally inaccurate any one who knows these two knows that


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## sagecreek

klshooter said:


> You know what, I'm sick of people that were not there saying some one else changed his score card I was in the group I can tell you only 3 people handled those score cards the two score keepers and the accused no one wanted too file a protest ,when we saw the score card was changed we asked a range official what to do and then they sent Don from the ASA I'm not sure who filed the protest but it was warranted I had nothing to gain from getting this guy dqed and too insuate Dicky deeitt or jay moon was out to get him is totally inaccurate any one who knows these two knows that


Don't let any of these AT Lawyers get under your skin. What was done, had to be done.


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## klshooter

Sorry dicky dewitt


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## nccrutch

"I heard" the official letter will arrive at his house today. He will not like it...


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## Daniel Boone

klshooter said:


> You know what, I'm sick of people that were not there saying some one else changed his score card I was in the group I can tell you only 3 people handled those score cards the two score keepers and the accused no one wanted too file a protest ,when we saw the score card was changed we asked a range official what to do and then they sent Don from the ASA I'm not sure who filed the protest but it was warranted I had nothing to gain from getting this guy dqed and too insuate Dicky deeitt or jay moon was out to get him is totally inaccurate any one who knows these two knows that


ASA and you guys did the right thing. Most here understand completely. Thanks to rules committee for doing there job!
DB


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## sagecreek

It's a hard thing to do for sure. The worst part of it all is someone putting you in that perdiciment in the first place.


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## 12sonly

klshooter said:


> You know what, I'm sick of people that were not there saying some one else changed his score card I was in the group I can tell you only 3 people handled those score cards the two score keepers and the accused no one wanted too file a protest ,when we saw the score card was changed we asked a range official what to do and then they sent Don from the ASA I'm not sure who filed the protest but it was warranted I had nothing to gain from getting this guy dqed and too insuate Dicky deeitt or jay moon was out to get him is totally inaccurate any one who knows these two knows that


The right thing was done that's the reason we have ruled. I commend the people that done this


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## ncsurveyor

This type of thing is already happening WAY too much in local shoots by more people than we even realize. It needs to be stamped out and people who are caught should be made an example of. It's going to ruin the sport and will put a bad taste in the mouth of honest guys. It already is making a lot of guys quit going to local shoots. It's rampant in some clubs and is only getting worse. And these people who are legitimately cheating for a few bucks in their pockets are nothing but lowlife theives.


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## sagecreek

ncsurveyor said:


> This type of thing is already happening WAY too much in local shoots by more people than we even realize. It needs to be stamped out and people who are caught should be made an example of. It's going to ruin the sport and will put a bad taste in the mouth of honest guys. It already is making a lot of guys quit going to local shoots. It's rampant in some clubs and is only getting worse. And these people who are legitimately cheating for a few bucks in their pockets are nothing but lowlife theives.


Couldn't agree more. I wrote my first letter to a participant a couple weeks ago. I hate doing things like that, but we have to to keep our clubs healty.


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## jimb

That all lines up with the rumors I have been hearing. Lots of people stepped up to defend the rangefinding binocular guy also.


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## ncsurveyor

jimb said:


> That all lines up with the rumors I have been hearing. Lots of people stepped up to defend the rangefinding binocular guy also.


What did they do to that guy?


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## archer1234535

let's review the whole situation. Four out of five guys in the group had their names, date, and ASA number filled out in blue ink. 1 guy had his name information filled out in black gel pen. The scores for both cards were filled out in blue ink pen. The 12 that was written over top of a blue 8 was in black gel pen. So in the day was over the score keepers we're going over the running total. They're running totals matched. The accused was standing over the shoulders of the score keepers.when they were done with a running total the accused instantly pointed at the 12 written in black gel pen and said what's this. that's when the score keeper looked at the accused and said I didn't write that 12 over top of the 8. that's when the accused started denying that he even had a pen. so at this point you have the score keepers word verse the accused's word. forgot to mention, the semi pro class was peered up on day 2 because on day 1 the accused had two extra 12 s on his scorecard where the other score keeper had him written down as 10s. The group didn't remember what he shot so they gave him the higher score. So he was suspected of cheating on day 1 but no one filed a protest. Can this kid shoot? Yes. Could he win without pencil pushing? Probably. But sometimes being the best at something gets in the way of someone's integrity and they will do whatever it takes to win. Look at the players in the MLB. They will do whatever it takes to gain an edge and when there caught there reputation gets ruined. So all of his cronies on here should stop sticking up for him and instead help this kid with his problems. You can believe who you want to believe. The score keeper with a clean as a whistle background or the young man who has been suspected of cheating for over a year now. There were a bunch of good archers that got bumped from semi-pro to pro last year; Nathan winters, Chad Chenault, Matt Varnes, Andy Calloway ect. Did anyone ever try to sabotage the guys? Tyler Marlow is shooting great right now. Has anyone fudged with his scorecard to try and get him disqualified? No. This kid is trying to deny his wrongful actions and put the blame on someone else. Wake up people!


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## sagecreek

archer1234535 said:


> let's review the whole situation. Four out of five guys in the group had their names, date, and ASA number filled out in blue ink. 1 guy had his name information filled out in black gel pen. The scores for both cards were filled out in blue ink pen. The 12 that was written over top of a blue 8 was in black gel pen. So in the day was over the score keepers we're going over the running total. They're running totals matched. The accused was standing over the shoulders of the score keepers.when they were done with a running total the accused instantly pointed at the 12 written in black gel pen and said what's this. that's when the score keeper looked at the accused and said I didn't write that 12 over top of the 8. that's when the accused started denying that he even had a pen. so at this point you have the score keepers word verse the accused's word. forgot to mention, the semi pro class was peered up on day 2 because on day 1 the accused had two extra 12 s on his scorecard where the other score keeper had him written down as 10s. The group didn't remember what he shot so they gave him the higher score. So he was suspected of cheating on day 1 but no one filed a protest. Can this kid shoot? Yes. Could he win without pencil pushing? Probably. But sometimes being the best at something gets in the way of someone's integrity and they will do whatever it takes to win. Look at the players in the MLB. They will do whatever it takes to gain an edge and when there caught there reputation gets ruined. So all of his cronies on here should stop sticking up for him and instead help this kid with his problems. You can believe who you want to believe. The score keeper with a clean as a whistle background or the young man who has been suspected of cheating for over a year now. There were a bunch of good archers that got bumped from semi-pro to pro last year; Nathan winters, Chad Chenault, Matt Varnes, Andy Calloway ect. Did anyone ever try to sabotage the guys? Tyler Marlow is shooting great right now. Has anyone fudged with his scorecard to try and get him disqualified? No. This kid is trying to deny his wrongful actions and put the blame on someone else. Wake up people!


I've heard both sides. It's pretty ovious what happened. Seems like a cut and dry case.


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## blucky

So as far as the ASA rule says, is it considered to be "unsportsman like conduct" and should be disqualified from the shoot. Second offense is disqualified for the season. Is this correct or is there more to it than that. Other than getting a bad name, sounds like the accused got of with a slap on the wrist. I thank those of you that stood up and did the right thing. I only make a couple of shoots a year, but I don't like the idea of taking 2 days off work, drive 8 or more hours to a shoot, pay for motels, entry fees, etc. To have to compete against a pencil pusher or any other means of cheating . I get enough of that a local shoots. Again, thank you to all those who stood up, and thanks to the ASA for trying to making this a respectable organization.


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## ncsurveyor

Does anyone know if not counting the Sunday score is the only disciplinary action taken?


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## 12sonly

No, there is more coming.


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## blade37defender

I'm not going to post what I've "heard" the actions to be taken are, but I believe my source.

Even if ASA doesn't post anything, but when he gets a letter in the mail today, tomorrow, or whenever from the ASA, he'll let it be known on Facebook I'm sure.


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## 12sonly

blade37defender said:


> I'm not going to post what I've "heard" the actions to be taken are, but I believe my source.
> 
> Even if ASA doesn't post anything, but when he gets a letter in the mail today, tomorrow, or whenever from the ASA, he'll let it be known on Facebook I'm sure.


Same here


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## zyxw

blade37defender said:


> I'm not going to post what I've "heard" the actions to be taken are, but I believe my source.
> 
> Even if ASA doesn't post anything, but when he gets a letter in the mail today, tomorrow, or whenever from the ASA, he'll let it be known on Facebook I'm sure.[/QUOTE
> I hate this happened for all those involved. I've read all the post on this and would really like to know what's probably gonna happen. Wouldn't hurt a thing to post what you think the consequences are gonna be. Most like me have no clue. Just courious


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## ncsurveyor

Wonder if he'll lose his sponsors? If so, that was an expensive four point gamble.


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## sagecreek

Him and I are friends. We've talked on the phone about it a lot. He is a very talented young man, but I think he has made some wrong decisions lately, and don't care to speculate why. If he reads this, I hope he makes a public apology and turns his life around. I will do anything I can to help him.

He has really burnt a lot of bridges in the last year or so.


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## Kstigall

I offer a big "THANKS!" to all those that did what they had to do. No decent person really wants to be the one that brings a man down and that is something cheaters and scammers count on. 

The word on the street is that this has been a _long _time coming. The young man played one too many extra cards. 

We can only hope that this starts him down the road of understanding that his perception of reality is seriously skewed. But changing is not something one does over night or even over a year. I hope no one leads him to believe otherwise.


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## Joseph McCluske

sagecreek said:


> Him and I are friends. We've talked on the phone about it a lot. He is a very talented young man, but I think he has made some wrong decisions lately, and don't care to speculate why. If he reads this, I hope he makes a public apology and turns his life around. I will do anything I can to help him.
> 
> He has really burnt a lot of bridges in the last year or so.


Nicely said, he's lucky to have a loyal friend when he'll need one the most..


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## Kstigall

I hope he comes to terms with the situation but he may never. 

He owes those that he burdened with exposing him a mature sincere apology.
He owes that he ruined the game for an apology.
He owes the owners and employees of ASA an apology.
He owes all of those whose money he took while manipulating their trust an apology. 
Finally, he owes EVERY member of the ASA an apology for tainting the game in general! Next time there is a conflict in scores we may wonder if it was by design.


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## blade37defender

Sage, I understand that you'd do anything to help him, but unfortunately there are some people that will take advantage of that. You can only help someone is willing to accept said help and make a change. If that person doesn't want help, think they need to change, or just doesn't want to change, it doesn't matter what you do.

I've had this one on a personal level, as I'm sure many of us have, and that was something I had to come to realize for myself. In this scenario, you know as well as I do, that archery should be the least of his concerns. He has much more important things, in my opinion, that need to be taken care of...including himself.


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## Blue X

Daniel Boone said:


> Whats your point. You can sue for anything today. ASA doing ever thing they can to give archers the best possible fair game. You got to set the rules and go by them.
> What not legal about having a contest with rules? We all agree when we sign up we will play by the rules and guidelines of ASA. Im a betting man and bet ASA has lawyers that can fight any law suit you throw at them. Not like they have not been the big show for many years and this is there first time enforcing the rules.
> DB


My point is you missed the point. 

When you write a protest against someone and give it to someone else and you cant prove it is true, that is defamation. It has nothing to do with the asa or what ever any rule is in any game you play, it is still defamation. 

For instance I file a protest against you for cheating by writing down my protest accusing you of cheating and i then hand that written statement to another person and i can not prove 100% for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that you infact cheated, that is defamation of character. Then you could sue me for defamation of your character and win probably. Because I would be guilty of defaming you by writing the protest and turning it into the asa aka another person. It dont make no difference if your playing archery or checkers or foos ball, defamation is defamation. When you shoot a sanctioned tournament, the states laws apply above any rules or regulations of any game sanctioning rule book or regulation. The asa wouldnt get sued because they did no wrong, but the guy turning in the written protest sure could if he didnt have 100% clear proof that the accused did what you accused them of doing. 

I am sure the asa does have lawyers, but they wont help you one bit if you defame somebody, you would have to hire your own. A protest filed over a measley ol $15,000 at a archery tournament could very well cost you almost everything you have got. 

I know if someone falsely accused me in a written statement id drop $150,000+ in a heart beat to make sure it hurt the acuser way more than the accused. I wouldnt care 1 bit if i never got a dime of it back. 

Do you not see that point? I hate cheaters as much as anybody else but unless there is video or a confession, I dont see how a written protest filed is not defamation of character. 

I am not a lawyer, I own a pipe welding business. I can tell you that my rules in my business dont trump the states laws. Neither would the rules of any game trump any state laws.


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## Daniel Boone

Blue X said:


> My point is you missed the point.
> 
> When you write a protest against someone and give it to someone else and you cant prove it is true, that is defamation. It has nothing to do with the asa or what ever any rule is in any game you play, it is still defamation.
> 
> For instance I file a protest against you for cheating by writing down my protest accusing you of cheating and i then hand that written statement to another person and i can not prove 100% for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that you infact cheated, that is defamation of character. Then you could sue me for defamation of your character and win probably. Because I would be guilty of defaming you by writing the protest and turning it into the asa aka another person. It dont make no difference if your playing archery or checkers or foos ball, defamation is defamation. When you shoot a sanctioned tournament, the states laws apply above any rules or regulations of any game sanctioning rule book or regulation. The asa wouldnt get sued because they did no wrong, but the guy turning in the written protest sure could if he didnt have 100% clear proof that the accused did what you accused them of doing.
> 
> I am sure the asa does have lawyers, but they wont help you one bit if you defame somebody, you would have to hire your own. A protest filed over a measley ol $15,000 at a archery tournament could very well cost you almost everything you have got.
> 
> I know if someone falsely accused me in a written statement id drop $150,000+ in a heart beat to make sure it hurt the acuser way more than the accused. I wouldnt care 1 bit if i never got a dime of it back.
> 
> Do you not see that point



Just like I said anyone can sue for anything they want. I garantee you in this instance any jury or judge would laugh you out of court if you tried to file a lawsuit. This attitude I would sue doesn't impress me at all. Actually think it what wrong with alot of society today. If I file a protest against you for cheating it would be because I thought you were cheating. Nothing more or nothing less and would have nothing to do with defaming you or your name. If the rules committee came back and didnt think the evidence was enough I would always accept there decision and thats how it should be, no lawyers. In most these instance the two parties have never even met before. 
DB


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## klshooter

So another words if someone is cheating and you have evidence that points towards that person but you never saw him or video taped him doing so you shouldn't say something becuz thats defamation of character , we should just let it keep happening I guess I'm glad we're only shooting for hundreds of $ not thousands with all the lawyers running around the archery ranges


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## Daniel Boone

sagecreek said:


> Him and I are friends. We've talked on the phone about it a lot. He is a very talented young man, but I think he has made some wrong decisions lately, and don't care to speculate why. If he reads this, I hope he makes a public apology and turns his life around. I will do anything I can to help him.
> 
> He has really burnt a lot of bridges in the last year or so.


This is how it should be! This is a such a good gesture on your part and I do believe most archers are compassionate. 
DB


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## Rolo

Blue X said:


> My point is you missed the point.
> 
> When you write a protest against someone and give it to someone else and you cant prove it is true, that is defamation. It has nothing to do with the asa or what ever any rule is in any game you play, *it is still defamation*.
> 
> For instance I file a protest against you for cheating by writing down my protest accusing you of cheating and i then hand that written statement to another person and i can not prove 100% for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that you infact cheated, that is defamation of character. Then you could sue me for defamation of your character and win probably. Because I would be guilty of defaming you by writing the protest and turning it into the asa aka another person. It dont make no difference if your playing archery or checkers or foos ball, defamation is defamation. When you shoot a sanctioned tournament, the states laws apply above any rules or regulations of any game sanctioning rule book or regulation. The asa wouldnt get sued because they did no wrong, but the guy turning in the written protest sure could if he didnt have 100% clear proof that the accused did what you accused them of doing.
> 
> I am sure the asa does have lawyers, but they wont help you one bit if you defame somebody, you would have to hire your own. A protest filed over a measley ol $15,000 at a archery tournament could very well cost you almost everything you have got.
> 
> I know if someone falsely accused me in a written statement id drop $150,000+ in a heart beat to make sure it hurt the acuser way more than the accused. I wouldnt care 1 bit if i never got a dime of it back.
> 
> Do you not see that point? I hate cheaters as much as anybody else but unless there is video or a confession, I dont see how a written protest filed is not defamation of character.
> 
> I am not a lawyer, I own a pipe welding business. I can tell you that my rules in my business dont trump the states laws. Neither would the rules of any game trump any state laws.


There's a bit more to it than that...starting with it has to be a known falsehood to begin with, which under the events you describe, it is not...

Being incorrect (wrong) about an accusation is not defamation, a whole lot different than intentionally falsely accusing someone. Then, there's the whole damages thing...


----------



## Blue X

Daniel Boone said:


> Just like I said anyone can sue for anything they want. I garantee you in this instance any jury or judge would laugh you out of court if you tried to file a lawsuit. This attitude I would sue doesn't impress me at all. Actually think it what wrong with alot of society today. If I file a protest against you for cheating it would be because I thought you were cheating. Nothing more or nothing less and would have nothing to do with defaming you or your name. If the rules committee came back and didnt think the evidence was enough I would always accept there decision and thats how it should be, no lawyers. In most these instance the two parties have never even met before.
> DB


Your still missing the point. Why do you think they make you file a protest in writing?

If you files a written protest because you "THOUGHT" I was cheating, is way different than if you could prove I was cheating. What you "THOUGHT and WROTE DOWN and HANDED TO ANOTHER PERSON, if not provable by you, is DEFAMATION. Id say file all the protest you want to file against anybody you "THOUGHT" was cheating and it wouldnt get laughed out of court but either way you would be out of a lot of money. I never seen anybody on law and order pleading a case about what they thought, it was mostly what you can prove. If you can prove it, then then your free to write down and talk all you want. 

File away with the written protest with unprovable accusations, someone could sue and win. I know if I was innocent and you "THOUGHT" I was cheating and you made a written protest and accused me, id sue you without ever losing a minutes sleep. Then id see what you "THOUGHT" about falsely accusing people. I bet the next time you would "THINK" twice before writing down a accusatory unprovable statement about someone.


----------



## J Whittington

lol 



blade37defender said:


> I'm not going to post what I've "heard" the actions to be taken are, but I believe my source.
> 
> Even if ASA doesn't post anything, but when he gets a letter in the mail today, tomorrow, or whenever from the ASA, he'll let it be known on Facebook I'm sure.


----------



## bucco921

Blue X said:


> My point is you missed the point.
> 
> 
> Do you not see that point? I hate cheaters as much as anybody else but unless there is video or a confession, I dont see how a written protest filed is not defamation of character.
> 
> I am not a lawyer, I own a pipe welding business. I can tell you that my rules in my business dont trump the states laws. Neither would the rules of any game trump any state laws.


This makes absolutely no sense. People are convicted every single day in every single city in the country with no confession or video, only witness testimony. If you witness a crime but don't video tape it you don't report it???


----------



## 3rdplace

Physical evidence goes a long way.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Blue X said:


> Your still missing the point. Why do you think they make you file a protest in writing?
> 
> If you files a written protest because you "THOUGHT" I was cheating, is way different than if you could prove I was cheating. What you "THOUGHT and WROTE DOWN and HANDED TO ANOTHER PERSON, if not provable by you, is DEFAMATION. Id say file all the protest you want to file against anybody you "THOUGHT" was cheating and it wouldnt get laughed out of court but either way you would be out of a lot of money. I never seen anybody on law and order pleading a case about what they thought, it was mostly what you can prove. If you can prove it, then then your free to write down and talk all you want.
> 
> File away with the written protest with unprovable accusations, someone could sue and win. I know if I was innocent and you "THOUGHT" I was cheating and you made a written protest and accused me, id sue you without ever losing a minutes sleep. Then id see what you "THOUGHT" about falsely accusing people. I bet the next time you would "THINK" twice before writing down a accusatory unprovable statement about someone.


Wish I had a dime for ever time someone said they was going to sue me. I understand anyone can sue for anything. Proving it and making it stick is a whole different discussion. If I see you cheating Im going to file and and then you can file your lawsuit and will see who wins in a court of law. Its a archery contest and the rules of the contest are clearly written down. If your stupid enough to try and sue over someone filing a protest when they saw what they felt was a clear violation of ASA rules as written then you got a problem, of course those who are guilty and do cheat would most likely be the first to file a lawsuit. I rest assured if Im going to sue someone it not going to be over a archery contest where someone thought I was cheating. Maybe you could file against the ASA and everyone trying to prove a conspiracy theory and they were all out to get you. Because this is something that involve's more than just one person.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

3rdplace said:


> Physical evidence goes a long way.


And multiple witness's! Maybe we need lawyers sponsors with us at ASA! LOL
DB


----------



## archer1234535

dear blue x, 

if this was you in this situation and the same string of events happened. i would file a protest in a heartbeat. go ahead and take me to court for defamation of your character. could i take you to court for stealing then? from the likes of 75 semi pros? is it really defamation of character when your guilty of the things i protest about? there is not a doubt in my mind who wrote the 12.


----------



## WTM

Blue X said:


> Your still missing the point. Why do you think they make you file a protest in writing?
> 
> If you files a written protest because you "THOUGHT" I was cheating, is way different than if you could prove I was cheating. What you "THOUGHT and WROTE DOWN and HANDED TO ANOTHER PERSON, if not provable by you, is DEFAMATION. Id say file all the protest you want to file against anybody you "THOUGHT" was cheating and it wouldnt get laughed out of court but either way you would be out of a lot of money. I never seen anybody on law and order pleading a case about what they thought, it was mostly what you can prove. If you can prove it, then then your free to write down and talk all you want.
> 
> File away with the written protest with unprovable accusations, someone could sue and win. I know if I was innocent and you "THOUGHT" I was cheating and you made a written protest and accused me, id sue you without ever losing a minutes sleep. Then id see what you "THOUGHT" about falsely accusing people. I bet the next time you would "THINK" twice before writing down a accusatory unprovable statement about someone.



I am going to sue you for threatening to sue me! Hey lets sue everyone, I am sure that will fix society. 

Get a grip! You actually used "Law & Order" as a legal example. There is a lot more to defamation than just writing down that person X saw person Y cheat. Good luck


----------



## ncsurveyor

Nobody still has said what is the likely outcome from the letter he is going to receive. What do the ASA rules say? Will he be suspended for a year? One shoot? For life? Will they do anything other than what they've already done? Does anyone know?


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## Jerald Barris

I'll sue. This attitude is what is wrong with the gold ole USA.


----------



## Daniel Boone

ncsurveyor said:


> Nobody still has said what is the likely outcome from the letter he is going to receive. What do the ASA rules say? Will he be suspended for a year? One shoot? For life? Will they do anything other than what they've already done? Does anyone know?


First offense wont be that bad. 
DB


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## jimb

here's the answer to the whole situation, don't do anything stupid and no one will file a protest against you.


----------



## 3dbowmaster

So with an ASA decisions made.....Will the local clubs do anything about him showing up at their shoots??? It would be hard for me to enter a class that he was in now. Fun round would be ok but a money class is a different story regardless if you walked the course with him....


----------



## Blue X

jimb said:


> here's the answer to the whole situation, don't do anything stupid and no one will file a protest against you.


thats right and dont file any stupid protest against any innocent people.


----------



## ncsurveyor

Blue, do you know him? You seem to think he's innocent. Do you have reason to believe so? Just asking...


----------



## Tallcatt

ncsurveyor said:


> Nobody still has said what is the likely outcome from the letter he is going to receive. What do the ASA rules say? Will he be suspended for a year? One shoot? For life? Will they do anything other than what they've already done? Does anyone know?


I would say the sanctions levied match the violation. That is all I can say about it.



Daniel Boone said:


> First offense wont be that bad.
> DB


True Dan....but I would not want to be him....especially at future events.


----------



## bucco921

Blue X said:


> thats right and dont file any stupid protest against any innocent people.


You have me confused, where did anybody talk about filing a protest against innocent people? You started all the lawsuit stuff when others were discussing whether they would file protest if they thought somebody was cheating. This whole thread is about a person who clearly has been suspected of this for a while now, confirmed by his own personal friend right in this very thread.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Blue X said:


> thats right and dont file any stupid protest against any innocent people.


You saying this archer was innocent?
DB


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## sagecreek

3dbowmaster said:


> So with an ASA decisions made.....Will the local clubs do anything about him showing up at their shoots??? It would be hard for me to enter a class that he was in now. Fun round would be ok but a money class is a different story regardless if you walked the course with him....


I've talked to most of the presidents with the Blue Ridge Circuit and some of the neighboring clubs. It will be dealt with.


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## J Whittington

Not saying who because I dont want to be sued LOL. But I recently received a mesaage that someone is coming to ky to kick our ass, if they can find a ride there!


----------



## Daniel Boone

J Whittington said:


> Not saying who because I dont want to be sued LOL. But I recently received a mesaage that someone is coming to ky to kick our ass, if they can find a ride there!


Ill be watching the scoreboards! Something tell me the guys in that class wont be intimidated.
DB


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## J Whittington

Oh we wont be.


----------



## Blue X

Daniel Boone said:


> You saying this archer was innocent?
> DB


no buddy i am not saying that, i do not know whether or not he is. Actually from what i have read, nobody actually knows. There is nobody that act seen anybody do anything from what i have read on here. There are millions of pens sold every day and nobody actually seen anybody do any writing from what i read. A mysterious mark showed up on a score card and made it to the end of a round before it got noticed as far as what I have read. Nobody seen any body do anything on either of the two days from what I read on here. 

I cant stand cheaters any more than anyone else. If all someone has do it file a protest and you get plastered all over the internet, that could be any one of us, and we could be innocent. You know just because a rule committee deems someone innocent or guilty, doesnt mean they actually were either innocent or guilty. You could leave your house with perfectly good intentions and someone could file a protest against you and you could have your name trashed just because someone filed a protest. You may be 100% innocent and lose your whole archery career, for lack of better words. 

If it were you mr boone that had a protest filed against you and you were infact innocent your name could have already been drug around here for a week now and the deleted and a new thread started about what you had supposedly done. And you would always be remembered for what the protest said happenned and youd have no ways to prove your innocence than the protester would have to prove your guilt. 

How would you feel if it were you and you were actually innocent?
Why do you suppose the asa makes you file a protest in writing?
Why do you suppose the asa dont seem to actually make a statement about this issue?

I think because its not actually provable and they have a signed written statement and they have never said anything about anybody to not have the liability of accusing people without absolute provable evidence. I think the signed written protest is accusatory by an individual and blameless to the asa. All information on a protest would be heresay or he said/she said evidence. I think it is a law suit waiting to happen and thats my opinion. I dont see how by now that nobody hasnt filed one. 

I have never filed a suit, but been in a few thru other business there no fun and cost a lot no matter where you stand in it. I cant see anyway a man could prove what he writes on one of them protest without video or a signed confession from the person that got accused.

From this event I have learned that peer groups have the potiential to actually work against you, I have learned that anybody can file a protest about anybody without actual evidence. I have learned that your name can be trashed with little reguard to whether you are innocent or guilty. I have learned that you folks could care less if your name is on a statement with no provable evidence against another person. You folks n get on a open forum and type all about a man with absolutely no way to ever know if a man is guilty or innocent. At anytime, any man or woman can file a protest and ruin your life. 

I for one have gained a lot from this ordeal.
The most important thing i have learned is I no longer want to participate in any asa events,it seems to be more stressful than fun. You folks aint my kind of people, I dont need any friends like yall. You people can just keep it and in 2015 ill just keep my $7,000 I had earmarked to blow on your sport and blow it somewhere else. Work is enough drama for me and inlaws are enough people to have work against you with no regard to whether they know what their talking about or not. I dont need yall soap opera archery game in my life.


----------



## Daniel Boone

Blue X said:


> no buddy i am not saying that, i do not know whether or not he is. Actually from what i have read, nobody actually knows. There is nobody that act seen anybody do anything from what i have read on here. There are millions of pens sold every day and nobody actually seen anybody do any writing from what i read. A mysterious mark showed up on a score card and made it to the end of a round before it got noticed as far as what I have read. Nobody seen any body do anything on either of the two days from what I read on here.
> 
> I cant stand cheaters any more than anyone else. If all someone has do it file a protest and you get plastered all over the internet, that could be any one of us, and we could be innocent. You know just because a rule committee deems someone innocent or guilty, doesnt mean they actually were either innocent or guilty. You could leave your house with perfectly good intentions and someone could file a protest against you and you could have your name trashed just because someone filed a protest. You may be 100% innocent and lose your whole archery career, for lack of better words.
> 
> If it were you mr boone that had a protest filed against you and you were infact innocent your name could have already been drug around here for a week now and the deleted and a new thread started about what you had supposedly done. And you would always be remembered for what the protest said happenned and youd have no ways to prove your innocence than the protester would have to prove your guilt.
> 
> How would you feel if it were you and you were actually innocent?
> Why do you suppose the asa makes you file a protest in writing?
> Why do you suppose the asa dont seem to actually make a statement about this issue?
> 
> I think because its not actually provable and they have a signed written statement and they have never said anything about anybody to not have the liability of accusing people without absolute provable evidence. I think the signed written protest is accusatory by an individual and blameless to the asa. All information on a protest would be heresay or he said/she said evidence. I think it is a law suit waiting to happen and thats my opinion. I dont see how by now that nobody hasnt filed one.
> 
> I have never filed a suit, but been in a few thru other business there no fun and cost a lot no matter where you stand in it. I cant see anyway a man could prove what he writes on one of them protest without video or a signed confession from the person that got accused.
> 
> From this event I have learned that peer groups have the potiential to actually work against you, I have learned that anybody can file a protest about anybody without actual evidence. I have learned that your name can be trashed with little reguard to whether you are innocent or guilty. I have learned that you folks could care less if your name is on a statement with no provable evidence against another person. You folks n get on a open forum and type all about a man with absolutely no way to ever know if a man is guilty or innocent. At anytime, any man or woman can file a protest and ruin your life.
> 
> I for one have gained a lot from this ordeal.
> The most important thing i have learned is I no longer want to participate in any asa events,it seems to be more stressful than fun. You folks aint my kind of people, I dont need any friends like yall. You people can just keep it and in 2015 ill just keep my $7,000 I had earmarked to blow on your sport and blow it somewhere else. Work is enough drama for me and inlaws are enough people to have work against you with no regard to whether they know what their talking about or not. I dont need yall soap opera archery game in my life.


Honestly it is your loss. I have shot several assc. and all have there pros and cons. Good luck in archery where ever you choose to shoot. Just keep it fun and realize thats what most important. I have enjoyed all my years shooting ASA but I enjoy NFAA just as much. Good folks in both and I have enjoyed meeting archers from both
DB


----------



## J Whittington

I know the accused. Do I think he is guilty? Yes I do. 

HOWEVER, I believe in mercy and forginess more. Whats done is done and cannot be retracted. He has a lot on his plate now, so I ask ya'll to let this rest now. He is a human being. God loves him just as much as he loves anyone else. We all make mistakes and intentionally do wrong. He has the tallent to become a top elite pro archer.


----------



## 3rdplace

J Whittington said:


> I know the accused. Do I think he is guilty? Yes I do.
> 
> HOWEVER, I believe in mercy and forginess more. Whats done is done and cannot be retracted. He has a lot on his plate now, so I ask ya'll to let this rest now. He is a human being. God loves him just as much as he loves anyone else. We all make mistakes and intentionally do wrong. He has the tallent to become a top elite pro archer.


Well said Jerry.


----------



## Tallcatt

J Whittington said:


> I know the accused. Do I think he is guilty? Yes I do.
> 
> HOWEVER, I believe in mercy and forginess more. Whats done is done and cannot be retracted. He has a lot on his plate now, so I ask ya'll to let this rest now. He is a human being. God loves him just as much as he loves anyone else. We all make mistakes and intentionally do wrong. He has the tallent to become a top elite pro archer.


I agree. In our world (3D archery) its going to be tough enough to face his peers. We surely do not need to make it any worse for him.


----------



## smokin12ring

I don't want to come off really rude about this but he might have the talent to be a top elite pro someday but I am pretty sure he made his own bed on this and it will never be ok in most peoples eyes that do shoot against him. I feel sorry for this guy and all his sponsors


----------



## smokin12ring

What gets me is what does cheating in semi pro get you? You win out of semi and go to the pro ranks and get your butt kicked or cheat again? What would this discussion look like if it was the pro ranks?


----------



## sagecreek

smokin12ring said:


> I don't want to come off really rude about this but he might have the talent to be a top elite pro someday but I am pretty sure he made his own bed on this and it will never be ok in most peoples eyes that do shoot against him. I feel sorry for this guy and all his sponsors


It's not rude, I believe most feel this way. Like I said early, if he ever wants to put this behind him, I think he needs to make a sincere public apology. People will forgive, but they won't forget.


----------



## wpk

J Whittington said:


> I know the accused. Do I think he is guilty? Yes I do.
> 
> HOWEVER, I believe in mercy and forginess more. Whats done is done and cannot be retracted. He has a lot on his plate now, so I ask ya'll to let this rest now. He is a human being. God loves him just as much as he loves anyone else. We all make mistakes and intentionally do wrong. He has the tallent to become a top elite pro archer.


He might have the talent .
But if he cheats he does not have the integrity.
Zero respect for cheaters.
In my opinion changing the score to place higher.
Is no different then using a rangefinder before you shoot in a unknown class .
The end result is the same for both trying to place higher by deception and cheating.
If he has the talent then why does he feel the need to cheat?


----------



## Padgett

My wife is a prosecutor and my favorite thing that she says on a regular basis when dealing with the thousands of decisions just like this one is 

GOOD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS ALL THE TIME.

I have shot with this guy on a couple of occasions at asa events and I have had a great time with him each time and I consider him to be a good person, I hope to shoot with him again and when I do he will not touch the score cards and I will enjoy his company just like before. I am not offering a opinion of his guilt or not guilty, the guys in his group and the asa has had to deal with that just like my wife has to make tough decisions all day long every day.

I will say that on sunday at the same tournament we started on stake 1 and ended on number 20 and I had the highest score in my group and when we got the cards all signed and finished I walked over and handed them to the official taking them before I even put my stuff in the stool. From now on I will be asking one of the group members to walk with me to hand them in if I finish first in my group and if I don't finish first I will be offering to walk with the guy who did to turn them in to protect the top shooter of the day weather it is me or him.

Secondly in your group when you are a scorer I would not give the score card out to anyone during the day to look at it individually, if he wants to see it he can totally take a look any time but it really shouldn't leave your hands to protect you and him.

These things will protect everyone in the group and not hurt anyone.


----------



## Kstigall

I wonder if he'll eventually take charge of this or just walk away from it all.


----------



## JimmyP

Man up and show up.they catch them cheating all the time in nascar no one quits.we all are just one decision away from stupid.it can happen fast.


----------



## Deer Slayer I

JimmyP said:


> Man up and show up.they catch them cheating all the time in nascar no one quits.we all are just one decision away from stupid.it can happen fast.


Really WOW this isnt nascar Im sure this wasnt his first time pulling this trick. Makes you wonder how he won all the other shoots in the asa. just saying


----------



## JimmyP

He will be watched now want he.


----------



## smokin12ring

You can compare it to NASCAR and say that people don't care about cheating but also let's compare it to bass fishing. You ever get caught cheating in a bass tournament good luck ever trying to fish any event again


----------



## DeepFried

Blue X said:


> no buddy i am not saying that, i do not know whether or not he is. Actually from what i have read, nobody actually knows. There is nobody that act seen anybody do anything from what i have read on here. There are millions of pens sold every day and nobody actually seen anybody do any writing from what i read. A mysterious mark showed up on a score card and made it to the end of a round before it got noticed as far as what I have read. Nobody seen any body do anything on either of the two days from what I read on here.
> 
> I cant stand cheaters any more than anyone else. If all someone has do it file a protest and you get plastered all over the internet, that could be any one of us, and we could be innocent. You know just because a rule committee deems someone innocent or guilty, doesnt mean they actually were either innocent or guilty. You could leave your house with perfectly good intentions and someone could file a protest against you and you could have your name trashed just because someone filed a protest. You may be 100% innocent and lose your whole archery career, for lack of better words.
> 
> If it were you mr boone that had a protest filed against you and you were infact innocent your name could have already been drug around here for a week now and the deleted and a new thread started about what you had supposedly done. And you would always be remembered for what the protest said happenned and youd have no ways to prove your innocence than the protester would have to prove your guilt.
> 
> How would you feel if it were you and you were actually innocent?
> Why do you suppose the asa makes you file a protest in writing?
> Why do you suppose the asa dont seem to actually make a statement about this issue?
> 
> I think because its not actually provable and they have a signed written statement and they have never said anything about anybody to not have the liability of accusing people without absolute provable evidence. I think the signed written protest is accusatory by an individual and blameless to the asa. All information on a protest would be heresay or he said/she said evidence. I think it is a law suit waiting to happen and thats my opinion. I dont see how by now that nobody hasnt filed one.
> 
> I have never filed a suit, but been in a few thru other business there no fun and cost a lot no matter where you stand in it. I cant see anyway a man could prove what he writes on one of them protest without video or a signed confession from the person that got accused.
> 
> From this event I have learned that peer groups have the potiential to actually work against you, I have learned that anybody can file a protest about anybody without actual evidence. I have learned that your name can be trashed with little reguard to whether you are innocent or guilty. I have learned that you folks could care less if your name is on a statement with no provable evidence against another person. You folks n get on a open forum and type all about a man with absolutely no way to ever know if a man is guilty or innocent. At anytime, any man or woman can file a protest and ruin your life.
> 
> I for one have gained a lot from this ordeal.
> The most important thing i have learned is I no longer want to participate in any asa events,it seems to be more stressful than fun. You folks aint my kind of people, I dont need any friends like yall. You people can just keep it and in 2015 ill just keep my $7,000 I had earmarked to blow on your sport and blow it somewhere else. Work is enough drama for me and inlaws are enough people to have work against you with no regard to whether they know what their talking about or not. I dont need yall soap opera archery game in my life.


Excellent post


----------



## JimmyP

I take it you don't want him to ever compete again .people make mistakes yea bad ones.but we can learn from our mistakes.i don't even now the guy but put your self in his shoes now.how hard would it be to show up in Texas ,should you be ashamed or embarrassed ..


----------



## Daniel Boone

I want to commend everyone here for keeping this a good thread. Everyone posted without being insulting to the archer in question and each other. I just think it good to get this info out to the guys shooting ASA and it a reminder this happens and how it should be handled in the future. It certianly not a feel good thread by no means.

I commend ASA and the rules committee for doing a thankless job. I want to say the guys in the semi pro that filed the protest on suggestion of range officials you guys did well. We all can learn from this in the future and it reminds those out there if you cheat dont think you wont be caught. Archers are watching and policing the shoots. Especially if your winning there going to be watching you closely. 
DB


----------



## NYS REP

About the best thing this young man should do is contact Mike at the ASA. Request that prior to shooting in Texas the Semi-Pro class gathers and this young man make a public apology to the class. I know myself I would accept his apology and move forward. He wouldn't have access to any scorecards and I think moving forward more than one person should return the official scorecards to the range official at the conclusion of a round. The person with the highest score from the group along with one of the scorekeepers. The ASA official should also read off the scores so that those two people agree to the numbers read. I think this day and age to much temptation occurs amongst some individuals. The integrity of the sport is on the line and more so with social media, so a more proactive approach to scorekeeping must come of this occurrence.


----------



## alanspse1

It wouldn't be so bad but this guy has been accused of cheating at every local range he's shot at around home, and the really sad part about it is he can flat out shoot. I've been competing for 25 yrs and I've seen this way too many times, I think what happens is if a guy is shooting for a spot on a sponsors pro staff and he's not winning then he may loose his spot so he's gonna help himself all he can. That's why I've always said that prize money has ruined our sport. Just saying


----------



## bhtr3d

I believe the verdict been cast......shows on the final score listing


----------



## Kstigall

The reason punishment needs to be severe for this kind of rules violation is that it is a major burden on other competitors to "prove" the rules violation. Generally, score "tweaking" does not get a competitor busted because for the most part it's very hard to prove that a person intentionally cheated. Unlike NASCAR where the governing body finds the violation it is up to other competitors to gather evidence and prove that a fellow archer is cheating them out of money, success and simply ruining "their" game. Big bold cheating like what has occurred must be dealt with harshly to show others that may be thinking of boldly cheating their peers to think twice about forcing their peers to call them out.

Knowingly manipulating a score card for your own benefit and then basically calling others in the group liars (unsportsmen like conduct) is a heinous archery rule violation. Throw in continual denial by the perpetrator and it gets even uglier. I wonder how many times he pressured and embarrassed the other score keeper into giving in to him?

If the ASA catches someone running 3 fps over the speed limit it's not a really a big deal as we all know it is most likely inadvertent and that 3 fps doesn't help. Yet 1 fps over gets you DQ'd as it should.

The best and ONLY thing Brandon can do at this point is to personally talk to all those that were forced to stand up to him and to apologize. I am not just talking about his Sunday group but also his Saturday group and all those he "played" in the past. He owes all his sponsors a serious apology. He owes the ASA and _especially _Mr. T an apology! He damn sure owes all those that called him a friend an apology. The moment he does this it will immediately start becoming a part of his past and not his present. Even if he completely drops out of archery if he doesn't deal with the problem it will always be part of his "present".


----------



## Kstigall

alanspse1 said:


> It wouldn't be so bad but this guy has been accused of cheating at every local range he's shot at around home, and the really sad part about it is he can flat out shoot. I've been competing for 25 yrs and I've seen this way too many times, I think what happens is if a guy is shooting for a spot on a sponsors pro staff and he's not winning then he may loose his spot so he's gonna help himself all he can. That's why I've always said that prize money has ruined our sport. Just saying


A lot of people cheat more for the recognition of being a winner than for money. Why else do folks cheat for a $5 first place trophy? Pride causes folks to do things that are not acceptable too often.


----------



## mainehunt

Kstigall said:


> A lot of people cheat more for the recognition of being a winner than for money. Why else do folks cheat for a $5 first place trophy? Pride causes folks to do things that are not acceptable too often.


Absolutely true.


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## JimmyP

When we shoot local turn. We normally pay for a practice round they guys I shoot against are all good and we normally all shoot together .we call tight like at a Asa turn. It is funny how you go to a shoot and a local boy shoots lights out but when you see his Asa scores always at the bottom ,that's a red light to me.


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## bhtr3d

JimmyP said:


> When we shoot local turn. We normally pay for a practice round they guys I shoot against are all good and we normally all shoot together .we call tight like at a Asa turn. It is funny how you go to a shoot and a local boy shoots lights out but when you see his Asa scores always at the bottom ,that's a red light to me.


Thats not always the truth.....pressure on needing to do well....is a big deal on a major event....as to just b/sing around


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## 48archer

JimmyP said:


> When we shoot local turn. We normally pay for a practice round they guys I shoot against are all good and we normally all shoot together .we call tight like at a Asa turn. It is funny how you go to a shoot and a local boy shoots lights out but when you see his Asa scores always at the bottom ,that's a red light to me.


I see that a lot also.


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## slammin12

I totally agree...I see it also...buddies get together and shoot up at a local and can't break the top 50 at an ASA...total BS...


JimmyP said:


> When we shoot local turn. We normally pay for a practice round they guys I shoot against are all good and we normally all shoot together .we call tight like at a Asa turn. It is funny how you go to a shoot and a local boy shoots lights out but when you see his Asa scores always at the bottom ,that's a red light to me.


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## jimb

who did this guy shoot for, there should be an opening at that company


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## bamajk

JimmyP said:


> When we shoot local turn. We normally pay for a practice round they guys I shoot against are all good and we normally all shoot together .we call tight like at a Asa turn. It is funny how you go to a shoot and a local boy shoots lights out but when you see his Asa scores always at the bottom ,that's a red light to me.


I feel like I shoot well at my local clubs. However, I total had a mental break down at my first ASA and shot real bad. The pressure is a little higher at an ASA than shooting a round with buddies at a local event.


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## JimmyP

Same pressure for me I really don't want to loose to my buddies.


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## blade37defender

I typically perform better at an ASA event. Simply because I put more focus on every shot and I'm not kidding around. Not to mention, the lanes are typically flat with not much deception on the ground and fairly level footing at the stakes. Be careful about grouping those who do better at Nationals than they do local shoots into a "must be a cheater". Some people just perform better when the lights come on.


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## JimmyP

I just said its a red light ,which just means we watch a little closer ,not that there cheating


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## ccwilder3

Some of the replies on here crack me up. The truth is that if this guy can win after all of this, all will be forgiven. It really doesn't matter what he's done. Heck, he may even become the competition director for a major arrow company.


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## SonnyThomas

I don't know. It just seems everyone wants to pile on when a "bad" topic comes up. I don't know how well it holds true, but over in Europe, England, I think, publicity of a wrong doing can get a case dismissed.... Something about fairness being subjected to... I guess a fair trial being impossible.
Of this and other threads of this nature, people hounding for a ruling and the underlying crying for "blood."
I do hope the ruling committee wasn't pressured into making a decision....


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## 3rdplace

The ruling was consistent with the other time that it has happened.


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## Kstigall

JimmyP said:


> When we shoot local turn. We normally pay for a practice round they guys I shoot against are all good and we normally all shoot together .we call tight like at a Asa turn. It is funny how you go to a shoot and a local boy shoots lights out but when you see his Asa scores always at the bottom ,that's a red light to me.


Be real careful about going there! A lot of folks never get over the "nerves" so their scores generally suffer in serious competition. Others struggle when shooting with strangers. A lot of local tournaments around here have their targets set in almost the same spot every month. It would not be hard to get very good at managing these courses. 

I know a little about shooting indoors spot tournaments. It is not at all unusual to see scores seriously dive when someone shoots an "official" round at a different club. I've seen consistent 300 55 X guys turn in an UGLY 298 with 45 X's at the first "away" games. The same applies to 3D.

I've shot 15 points under my average and 15 points over my average the same week in 3D. I've had a run of weeks where I was smoking hot and then suddenly post a below average score. If someone _wanted_ to they could point at the low score and say I must have "cheated" at the previous shoots. Indoors this year I had a run of all 59 and 60 X games for about 10 -12 days and then pooped a pair of 55's one weekend.............it happens!


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## J Whittington

This will be my lost post on this topic.

1. I am NOT taking up for him, NOR, do I approve of his actions. He received a really good butt chewing from me and others.
2. Its OVER. No matter how much we trash, smash, and gash him, what is done is done. Nothing can be done to remove the facts. Simply, He cheated.
3. He has been punished. IMHO, its pretty severe. A. He lost all winnings from Alabama, ( I know he needed the $) B. His name is now mud. Every one will suspect and probably accuse him of stuff in the future. C. He is going to lose his sponsors. D. NO time in the immediate future is any archery person going to trust him. D. He knows that he is a marked man and that he has to prove himself.
BUT PLEASE REMEMBER HE IS A HUMAN BEING.

He currently has a lot on his plate. He has been out of work, car broken down, girl friend is expecting, and he lost a lot of friends. Archery friends, ITs time to give it a break. Pray for him, and show mercy. 

Jerry Whittington


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## mcharles

So can someone tell his name without a lawsuit being filed?


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## Mark1976

I do wish him the best and hopefully he gets his crap together...however, if he is in such rough fancial distress, maybe he should sell his archery gear, save his gas money and entree fee, hotel room fees,...ext! Instead of spending it all just to try to cheat someone else that has spent the same! I have personally sold everything I own at one time or another to provide for my family!! It comes down to priorities, and his priorities are clearly his problem! If he seeks forgiveness, he and he alone will have to ask for it and not from us, but a much higher power!


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## tdawg21

I've not followed this closely but as others have said, we all make bad decisions at one time or another no matter how hard we try not to. It sounds like this guy may have had a fairly long pattern of bad decisions and needs to make a complete lifestyle change. Especially if he plans to have a future in an integrity-based sport like ours. I'm not sure if he's an AT'er or not but this would be a great place to start rebuilding his character by admitting his wrong doing and issuing a public apology. I'm sure it would be a difficult thing for him to do but he needs to know that it would be a big step towards getting him on the road back to where he aspires to be. It's absolutely amazing how compassionate people really are when you can admit/own your mistakes. And that is a VERY good thing!

Dawg


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## wpk

J Whittington said:


> This will be my lost post on this topic.
> 
> 1. I am NOT taking up for him, NOR, do I approve of his actions. He received a really good butt chewing from me and others.
> 2. Its OVER. No matter how much we trash, smash, and gash him, what is done is done. Nothing can be done to remove the facts. Simply, He cheated.
> 3. He has been punished. IMHO, its pretty severe. A. He lost all winnings from Alabama, ( I know he needed the $) B. His name is now mud. Every one will suspect and probably accuse him of stuff in the future. C. He is going to lose his sponsors. D. NO time in the immediate future is any archery person going to trust him. D. He knows that he is a marked man and that he has to prove himself.
> BUT PLEASE REMEMBER HE IS A HUMAN BEING.
> 
> He currently has a lot on his plate. He has been out of work, car broken down, girl friend is expecting, and he lost a lot of friends. Archery friends, ITs time to give it a break. Pray for him, and show mercy.
> 
> Jerry Whittington


Then how about he stop going to tournaments and find a job then
That not an reason to cheat


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## ncsurveyor

Unfortunately this is probably gonna follow him around the rest of his life. It's going to be hard to overcome...


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## sagecreek

ncsurveyor said:


> Unfortunately this is probably gonna follow him around the rest of his life. It's going to be hard to overcome...


Probably should have thought of that beforehand. lain:


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## Kstigall

ncsurveyor said:


> Unfortunately this is probably gonna follow him around the rest of his life. It's going to be hard to overcome...


Especially if he continues to deny wrong doing or god forbid, blames others! If he doesn't own it he may never get past it.


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## treeman65

ncsurveyor said:


> Unfortunately this is probably gonna follow him around the rest of his life. It's going to be hard to overcome...


Good and that is what cheaters deserve. I really don't care what kind of reasoning he has cheaters are nothing more than thieves
Cause they steal from people that really deserve it and earned it


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## stark815

He said he won't be in Texas but will be in Kentucky to show everyone he is a shooter and not a cheater...


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## Daniel Boone

stark815 said:


> He said he won't be in Texas but will be in Kentucky to show everyone he is a shooter and not a cheater...


He in for hard road with that kind of denial. Seems he showing no remorse. Bad mistake on his part because no one will ever forget.
DB


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## SonnyThomas

stark815 said:


> He said he won't be in Texas but will be in Kentucky to show everyone he is a shooter and not a cheater...


First hand or second hand information... Some of your thoughts put to words? I can see one stepping up and showing he is a good shooter.



Daniel Boone said:


> He in for hard road with that kind of denial. Seems he showing no remorse. Bad mistake on his part because no one will ever forget.
> DB


Until proven, DB, just about like a I noted above, the second hand stuff. Kid wants to step up to bat, I wouldn't stand in his way or cut him down because of second hand knowledge..... Just saying.....


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## 3rdplace

Sonny I can see you haven't seen his FaceBook posts.


Best thing we can do is let it lay. He is serving his punishment per ASA. There is no sense in convicting him all over again.


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## Daniel Boone

SonnyThomas said:


> First hand or second hand information... Some of your thoughts put to words? I can see one stepping up and showing he is a good shooter.
> 
> 
> 
> Until proven, DB, just about like a I noted above, the second hand stuff. Kid wants to step up to bat, I wouldn't stand in his way or cut him down because of second hand knowledge..... Just saying.....


Sonny it sounds like you want to take up for him. i think ill take the words of many who know him and have stated the truth. apparently he made plenty of comments.
DB


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## SonnyThomas

Not a Facebook Fan and on Dial Up, it's a real pain...

Nope, I ain't sticking up for him. I was just going by the information on this thread. And I won't go by second hand information. It'll get you in hot water in a heart beat.... And if he is blowing off on Facebook, he needs some serious chewing, like shake the chit out of someone who desperately needs it....


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## Daniel Boone

Im going to go ahead and ask the mods to close this one. Only time will tell how this all turns out. 
DB


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## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Im going to go ahead and ask the mods to close this one. Only time will tell how this all turns out.
> DB


Rule is, or at least should be in situations of this nature: "If you mess up, then fess up." Apparently, this individual is not fessing up for his messing up and/or is blaming someone or something else instead. Not wise and how can people respect anyone that won't fess up? He has been found "guilty" by the ASA and should just suck it up, shut up, make his apologies, and get on with it. Apparently the evidence the ASA has was well beyond reasonable doubt; otherwise the ruling wouldn't be what it is.
This cheating crap is getting way out of hand; it has been there for years, but of late, it has really come to the forefront and is giving a black ey to ALL archers in every venue, not just 3-D. 
Of course, anytime money is thrown on the table..."money is the root of all evil" comes to mind.
There have been other archers that were caught cheating, paid their price...fessed up, but they never ever regained a "trusted status." Fact of life. One in particular I can think of has been in the "doubt cast" for over 20 years!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## ncsurveyor

I think it shows the increasingly fast pase of the deterioration of any morals in this country. We caught a guy at our local club last week cheating. He always keeps score and has been a suspect for a while. So the club sent a couple guys with him and allowed him to keep score, but they secretly kept score on another card in their pocket. At the end of the day everyone's scores matched except the cheating POS and his son's. He had a 9 point difference and his son had a 5 point difference. 5s were written down as 8s and 8s written down as 10s. And all the club ended up doing is telling him he has to shoot a fun round from now on. Until the club authorities start cracking down with harsh punishments its going to continue.


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## hitman846

I think this has run it's course now.


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