# Warning to Binary Cam Owners



## Guest

Thanks for the info Dave. I don't own a BowTech but I know people that do and this information is worth passing on.


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## Bellows1

Dave, what effect (if any) will changing the draw wt or draw length have on these bows?
It seems if adding a DA rest changes the cam timing changing DW and DL would also have an effect. Yes, No??

Thanks, Bill


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## shermo

*Fallaway rest????*

How is a Fallaway rest going to change let off  

It's not going to change anything


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## Dave Nowlin

If you say attaching a fallaway doesn't change anything, you know more than Mike "Crackers" Carter, the folks at Trophy Taker and myself all put together. I'm sorry I can't help you. I can only help those who have an open mind and are willing to listen. I won't bother to argue with folks who have their mind made up.
Regarding the other persons question. I haven't found changing the draw weight to cause problems with timing. I time these bows with draw weight at max. Regarding draw length, these cams are draw length specific. That is a 27 inch draw length cam is only for a 27 inch draw individual. You can change draw length very slightly as I have mentioned before, especially if you have added both a fallawy and a Windstalker cable guard. Instead of adding twists you could remove 4 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and shorten the draw length a little. Conversely you could add 4 twists to the cable for the top cam and lengthen draw length a little. Then again as I have said before, when adding these two you could add 2 twists to the cable to the top cam and remove 2 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and keep your draw length the same. Hope this helps.
Dave Nowlin


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## Marcus

> If you say attaching a fallaway doesn't change anything, you know more than Mike "Crackers" Carter, the folks at Trophy Taker and myself all put together. I'm sorry I can't help you. I can only help those who have an open mind and are willing to listen. I won't bother to argue with folks who have their mind made up.


Wow the guy asked you a question and this is your response. Try actually explaiing the reason and not expecting everyone to take your word as gospel. :thumbs_do


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## grouse

Marcus said:


> Wow the guy asked you a question and this is your response. Try actually explaiing the reason and not expecting everyone to take your word as gospel. :thumbs_do


Look like he was asking a hypothetical to me and then making blanket statement. Dave's posts are the best on AT.


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## Dave Nowlin

Go back and read his post in it's entirety Marcus. He started by asking a question, then emphatically stated it wouldn't change anything. Let's see him tie a fallaway rest into the down cable and let's see what happens. I'll be around to help him get it all together when he can ask for help. Not basically tell me I don't know what I am talking about.
Dave Nowlin


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## Marcus

Perhaps he could have changed "not going to" to "shouldn't".

You will always have people who require an explaination why before they believe/understand what you are saying. That's reasonable. Perhaps he doesn't have a drop away to try it on. However if you could explain it fully perhaps he will agree and share this information with others. 
Believe me, he may have said it, but I bet there were hundreds reading it thinking the same thing. 
Educate or dictate, it's up to you. 

BTW thanks for the information. These cams are excellent and sharing information helps us all get the most from them.


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## Jerry/NJ

shermo said:


> How is a Fallaway rest going to change let off
> 
> It's not going to change anything


Dave, it would have been easier to just ask him why it doesnt change let off....

And I didnt see anything wrong with your answer BTW. Must be a down under thing.


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## Jerry/NJ

Also Dave, I forgot to mention this is an excellent thread!! You might have saved someone some injury and/or damage! :thumbs_up


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## Dave Nowlin

These bows are very sensitive to any pressure applied to the cables. (1) When installing a fallaway on a binary cam bow it MUST be timed to rise at the last 1/2 inch of draw cycle. (2) When tying into the down cable you need to tie in 6 inches below the rest to avoid distorting the path of the cable which will cause nock travel problems (3) After you have tied into the down cable and timed the rest check the Peak draw weight and holding weight of the bow. I think when you do the math you will find the letoff percentage is about 65%. When you then spread the cam timing where the top cam is ******ed 2 twists compared to the bottom cam 80% letoff will return. This timing can be done in one of three ways. If you would like to slightly lengthen your draw add 2 twists to the cable to the top cam, if you would like to slightly shorten it remove 2 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and if you are happy with your draw length add 1 twist to the cable to the top cam and remove 1 twist from the cable to the bottom cam. That's about it. The folks at Trophy Taker have set up some of their rests on Allegiances and found the same thing to be true as has Mike Carter. In fact it was Mike who first suggested the idea to me. He was and is right.
Dave Nowlin


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## JAVI

I haven't fooled with the Bow Techs much... but anything that has the effect of shortening the buss cable on a Hybrid cam bow will have an effect on the timing...


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## Marcus

excellent, thank you.


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## Bellows1

Thanks Dave, Great info.

Bill


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## Top Cat

Dave, does all this hold true for a QAD drop away as well?


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## goldtip22

Dave,
I haven't heard anything about the extra twists for the Windstalker until today. Maybe I missed it somewhere else. Does the Windstalker pull on the cables the same way a dropaway rest would? Also, since we have pretty similar set ups (whisker biscuits and Windstalkers) what do your cams look like after you've made your adjustments? In other words, where are your posts in relation to the limbs? My lower cam has the post about 1/16" away from the limb and my top cam has the post about dead even with the limb. Thanks for all your help regarding the timing issues with the binary cams.


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## Stash

Seems to me that any bow which is that sensitive to such tiny adjustments might not be worth the bother. 

Why would anyone want to spend that much time and effort to try to shoot a bow that seems to be both dangerous and hyper-critical? There are plenty of top models that shoot just as well without being so hard to tune.

Not a bash - just enlighten me about what's so special about this particular bow that warrants this amount of critical adjustment.


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## Marcus

Stash so far I have found the Binary cams to be the easiest to maintain and tune. My bow is shooting better than my previous bows and has not had any problems. I have changed the strings twice through wearing them out (normal) and it always puts them back into the 10 straight away. 
I have not yet in 5 months had it go out of time and start grouping badly, which was a problem with the Cam 1/2 and the twin cams. 
Far less hassle than the Cam 1/2 was.


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## Stash

I haven't shot or even closely looked at one, so the original post kind of made me wonder...I'd be very wary of a bow that needed that much tinkering and expertise to simply keep from having "...locked up bows and destroyed limb...".


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## curs1

Stash it sounds alot more complicated then it is actually. I Know you want all the performance you can ge t out of any bow you shoot and to get the best over all performance in any bow the timing has to be right. And these cams shoot their best at 80 % letoff.


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## Dave Nowlin

When you put the Windstalker on your bow check your maximum draw weight and holding weight. If the numbers don't show 80% letoff and I doubt they will, you will have to take 2 twists in any of the 3 ways I mentioned to get your 80 % letoff back. But what the heck, try 1 twist first and then check letoff and if it is still shy of 80% add the other twist. These extra twists aren't taken just for the heck of it. They are taken to restore 80% letoff and your valley to your draw stroke.
Regarding the other fellas question about why would anybody want a bow which is so critical. These bows are very tolerant of differences in arrow spine. Take a properly tuned Allegiance or Old Glory. Now go to an indoor range where there is no wind. Take a selection of arrows with you. Some underspined for your draw weight, some overspined for your draw weight and some correctly spined. Take some fat shafts, some skiny shafts and just for fun throw some aluminum shafts into the mix. Now shoot the lighest of these arrows high in the target and attach a string with a weight on it. Return to your original position and one by one shoot each of the arrows at the arrow with the string tied to it. Now examine the arrow grouping. Notice how the arrows are all dispersed in a vertically elongated group, with very little horizontal dispersion. Now try this same trick with any other bow you own and then tell me why these binary cam bows are such a joy to shoot. They are simply more forgiving than most other bows in the marketplace. I confess the lock up issue is particular to this bow but if you follow the instructions I have given you shouldn't lock up your bow. As far as the tuning goes these bows aren't hard to tune. I expect I can tune one of these bows as quickly as Javi can tune a Hoyt. That's not brag or a jab at Javi. It is simply stating these bows aren't that hard to tune if you have a plan going in.  
Dave Nowlin


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## PA.JAY

whats the math for determing letoff ? mine is holding 26 pounds ?


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## grouse

What is your draw weight?


Draw weight minus holding weight divided by draw weight


70# draw, 26# holding wieght

70-26=44 44/70= 62.8% let off.

I think thats right


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## shermo

Dave Nowlin said:


> These bows are very sensitive to any pressure applied to the cables. (1) When installing a fallaway on a binary cam bow it MUST be timed to rise at the last 1/2 inch of draw cycle. (2) When tying into the down cable you need to tie in 6 inches below the rest to avoid distorting the path of the cable which will cause nock travel problems (3) After you have tied into the down cable and timed the rest check the Peak draw weight and holding weight of the bow. I think when you do the math you will find the letoff percentage is about 65%. When you then spread the cam timing where the top cam is ******ed 2 twists compared to the bottom cam 80% letoff will return. This timing can be done in one of three ways. If you would like to slightly lengthen your draw add 2 twists to the cable to the top cam, if you would like to slightly shorten it remove 2 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and if you are happy with your draw length add 1 twist to the cable to the top cam and remove 1 twist from the cable to the bottom cam. That's about it. The folks at Trophy Taker have set up some of their rests on Allegiances and found the same thing to be true as has Mike Carter. In fact it was Mike who first suggested the idea to me. He was and is right.
> Dave Nowlin


I appreciate your explanation :thumbs_up


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## LongDraw1970

Guys,

I thunk I know where you all went wrong. You guys probably removed the "do not remove" label that was on your string..... It reminded you about the potential problem there.


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## bill_rollins

Dave what about if youn put the da cable into the hole in the cable slide. 
does that change anything? just wondering and what about the drop zone arrow rest do they change anything.


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## ScottyBow

*When Is the Recall Being Isued*



Dave Nowlin said:


> These bows are very sensitive to any pressure applied to the cables. (1) When installing a fallaway on a binary cam bow it MUST be timed to rise at the last 1/2 inch of draw cycle. (2) When tying into the down cable you need to tie in 6 inches below the rest to avoid distorting the path of the cable which will cause nock travel problems (3) After you have tied into the down cable and timed the rest check the Peak draw weight and holding weight of the bow. I think when you do the math you will find the letoff percentage is about 65%. When you then spread the cam timing where the top cam is ******ed 2 twists compared to the bottom cam 80% letoff will return. This timing can be done in one of three ways. If you would like to slightly lengthen your draw add 2 twists to the cable to the top cam, if you would like to slightly shorten it remove 2 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and if you are happy with your draw length add 1 twist to the cable to the top cam and remove 1 twist from the cable to the bottom cam. That's about it. The folks at Trophy Taker have set up some of their rests on Allegiances and found the same thing to be true as has Mike Carter. In fact it was Mike who first suggested the idea to me. He was and is right.
> Dave Nowlin


I shoot a W.B. but i'v tried D.A.'s on my Allegance mounting them to the cable slide it self.
I allso went up & down with twist's after the strings & cables broke in lining up the stringposts with the limbs & getting the poundage right.
Never had any problems, let off never changed. w/ the draw stop in, and the cams in sink with each other it seems to me it would be physicaly impossible to draw it past or short of the set let off.??
If your right this blows there whole cliam in promoting the cam system.
And I want to know what date the RECALL is scheduald for.

Sincerly Scott  :secret:  :cocktail: :cocktail:


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## Dave Nowlin

There still seems to be some confusion here. It doesn't matter what the brand of the fallaway is. When they are tied into the down cable they exert pressure and therin lies the gremlin. To put this in simplest possible terms you must add twists to the top cable or subtract them from the bottom cable until 80% letoff is restored. DON'T GO PAST 80%. When you go 2 or 3 twists past 80% lockup occurs. Comprende!!! Now as to tying to the cable slide I haven't done that but if it ends up ******ing the cable slide and reduces letoff you will have to restore the 80%. The real key folks, if you haven't caught on yet, is establishing 80% letoff without going past that point. So proceed with your eyes wide open and with caution. Make sure you are in a situation where there will be no distractions when tuning these bows. The way my bow is presently set up the string post on the bottom cam is 1/16 inch outside the limb face and the string post for the top cam has the edge barely under the limb face. If the bow is very far outside those measurements don't draw it. When in doubt don't draw a binary cam bow. Get someone to help you who knows more about these bows. They are a joy to shoot but must be set up correctly to get the maximum efficiency out of them. Then again isn't that true of all compound bows?
Dave Nowlin


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## Top Cat

Stay with us Dave we just want to make sure we got this right. 
I just a couple weeks ago installed a QAD on my sons bow. It is a 60 to 70 pound Allegience. I lowered the poundage to 60 and I tied it into the down cable. I then went out and shot it. No lock up. But if I understand you right the letoff will now be only 65%, is that correct? 
One other thing, I stuck the dropaway cord through the middle of the down cable and drew the bow as it states in the instruction. It says this will put the rest in the proper position. As I drew the bow the cord from the rest slid in the downcable till I got to full draw and thats where I tied it in. Do you think using this method would screw up the letoff also. I would check it but he lives on the other side of the state from me. 
OK another question. I turned it up to 70 pounds before I returned it to him but didn't shoot it at that poundage.(old body thing) What happens at that poundage,same thing,letoff will be 65% but no lock up to worry about? Thanks for your patience,Tim


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## RobVos

I have not yet played with this to see for myself, however if what is posted is indeed the case, if your bottom cable creeps a little (equal to 2-3 twists, which is not very much) your bow will lock up????? :mg:


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## Guest

This may sound like a stupid question but what do you do *IF* the bow locks up on you ? Throw it down and run ? Try to get to a press before it comes unlocked in you hand ? I'm not trying to be smart but what is the procedure if you see someone on a range with a locked up BowTech ? I wouldn't get close to it but I could stand back and yell the information to them.


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## MQ32Lover

It may help to explain exactly which is the "top" cable since there are two cables connected to each cam. The last explanation I read was confusing.
thanks


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## Unk Bond

*Reply to post*

Hello Dave nice tread.

Dave your subject is relating to Bowtech Binary cams
Don't mean to leave the subject.But since i have a BowTech Wheelie bow .I halft to ask. Dose this explanation use of the drop rest with Binary cams.Also apply to this Wheelie bow.Since it is a two cam bow .And iam relating back to your explanation of the BowTech Binary cam bow.

Thanks
Later Unk :angel:


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## Rugby

Lets go back a bit, how does a bow "lock up"?


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## Dave Nowlin

RobVos, you asked what if it creeps a little and locks up what then. Frankly I'm not sure what should be done in the event of a lockup. I have read 2 posts in the past where lockup occurred and the person was trying to put the bow in a press and it unlocked and dry fired and damaged the bow.
Unk Bond, There is no comparison between a Binary Cam bow and any other variety.
Preacher, I am unsure what must be done in the event of a lockup.
MQ32Lover, Please refer to some of my past posts. I have explained the nomenclature of these cams many times in the past.
As I said before THE KEY WHEN ADJUSTING THESE BOWS IS TO ACHIEVE 80% LETOFF & NO MORE.
Dave Nowlin


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## grouse

Dave, ONe more question about WS install. Adding twists to the cables shortens ata and increases holding weight, right? You suggest adding 2 twists to teh top cam cable. Will you then be forced to back the limb bolts out to go back to original poundage?


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## Guest

I think before any Dealer is allowed to sell BowTechs that they should be required to go to the Factory and attend a seminar on the proper way to tune these bows. The average dealer has no earthly idea on the Do’s and Don’t of Proper tuning and they never read Threads like this. I guess it’s going to take someone getting killed and their family suing BowTech before BowTech will even make this tuning information available on their web site.

Thanks Dave for posting Threads like this. :thumbs_up


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## AKDoug

I see a market for a new tool  The Bowtech lockup support so you can get the bow to the press safely.


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## Dave Nowlin

Grouse, Go back and read through this entire post. The thing that must be done is to ****** the top cam 2 twists relative to the bottom cam. I said this can be done by any one of 3 means depending on what you want to do with your draw length. One method would very sligthly increase draw weight, one would very slightly decrease draw weight and one would leave it the same. Should the very slight increase bother you, then back off your limb bolts sufficiently to restore the original draw weight. Forgive me if I missunderstand, but aren't we nit picking?
Dave Nowlin


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## breiner11

I swear reading these posts on here just make me paranoid. Wasn't the reason they made the binary cams was so the bow didn't get out of time. I talked to my Bowtech dealer and he said he had never heard of anything like this, that's not saying it isn't so, just that if these bows are so complex I think the dealers setting them up for people need to be trained how how to properly do it so disasters don't happen. I went back to my manual and it says not to make any such adjustments and then I read that many people here are doing just that. I better just ignore these bowtech posts until after the season! There are less than 40 days til the opener and I have a hard enough time sleeping at night in anticipation to be worrying about by my bow breaking during the best time of the year.


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## Dave Nowlin

It is funny that you should mention the fact dealers should know these things yet some don't. I agree that some dealers don't as one AT member had his bow locked up by a BowTech dealer while making adjustments. I'm not a dealer so I can't really say what info has been given to the dealers. My guess would be that the info is available to them from BowTech but some dealers don't bother to avail themselves of it. You can't blame BowTech if dealers don't use the information given them. This thread wasn't meant to educate dealers. It was meant to help do it yourselfers to keep them from having problems. I suspect the reason BowTech hasn't released this information to the general public is some will make adjustments contrary to what has been advised and damage their bows and blame BowTech. The only dangerous thing I can see about this is folks are going to add fallaway rests and other devices to their bows and they need to know what to do when their letoff gets messed up and their valley disappears. It's kind of a catch 22 in these days of product liability law suits.
Dave Nowlin


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## BowDean

*This might work*

I had a simular problem with the trophy taker
rest and a hoyt with command cams. I noticed
when i drew my bow with the tt not connected
to my cable the roll over of top and bottom
cams were in sync but when i connected the
tt they went out of sync and you could feel it when
you drew the bow. What i did was take a short
piece of surgical tubing off my grandsons sling
shot about 5" worth and rolled it back as much
as i could and put one end of the tt cord in it
that i had also tied a small knot in. I tied the
tubing to the down cable and the other end
of the tt cord to the tt and that solved my
problem it seems the tubing was enough to
pull the tt up but had enough give not to pull
the cam out of sync. For someone without
a press this might work for them. Hope this
helps... Dean


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## Top Cat

DAVE,did you see my post? If so and you are ignoring me fine. If you missed it please go back to page one and address my questions.


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## Bellows1

Top Cat said:


> DAVE,did you see my post? If so and you are ignoring me fine. If you missed it please go back to page one and address my questions.





> Regarding the other persons question. I haven't found changing the draw weight to cause problems with timing. I time these bows with draw weight at max. Regarding draw length, these cams are draw length specific. That is a 27 inch draw length cam is only for a 27 inch draw individual. You can change draw length very slightly as I have mentioned before, especially if you have added both a fallawy and a Windstalker cable guard. Instead of adding twists you could remove 4 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and shorten the draw length a little. Conversely you could add 4 twists to the cable for the top cam and lengthen draw length a little. Then again as I have said before, when adding these two you could add 2 twists to the cable to the top cam and remove 2 twists from the cable to the bottom cam and keep your draw length the same. Hope this helps.


Top Cat, he answered before you even asked. Now that's good.


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## Dave Nowlin

Top Cat, I may or may not have answered your question. You asked several and I know I answered some maybe not all. If you still have a question and want my help please restate it. While I try my best to help, I don't enjoy recovering old ground. I made this post because I sincerely want to help people and it is obvious that many people are having problems figuring these bows out. I don't make money in the archery industry. I just do this to help. So please humor me and I will try to do the same for you.  
Dave Nowlin


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## Top Cat

Ok, I stuck the dropaway cord through the middle of the down cable and drew the bow as it states in the instruction. It says this will put the rest in the proper position. As I drew the bow the cord from the rest slid in the downcable till I got to full draw and thats where I tied it in. Do you think using this method would screw up the letoff also?
In a nutshel lI was wondering if the cord sliding in the down cable would end up in a position that would not put undue stress on that cable.
Thanks for your patience :smile:


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## Dave Nowlin

I'll go through this step by step (1) the cord should be tied in 6 inches below the rest to keep from distorting the route of the cable. Think about it like this if you pull the cable sideways 1/2 inch toward the riser when you come to full draw it will act like your cable is shorter than it truly is . Then when you release the arrow and tension on the down cable is relaxed as the arrow travels forward it becomes a significantly longer cable. This brings about vertical nock travle issues and will cause you to have to set the bow up nock high to get it to shoot halfway decent. These bows have very level nock travel so you really don't want to distort the route of the down cable and induce problems. (2) The arm on the rest is supposed to be timed to bring the arrow all the way up 1/2 inch before full draw. If you bring it up sooner you will really create serious tuning issues. This is true of all fallaways and I know from talking to the folks at Trophy Taker they have experienced the same thing setting up an Allegiance. This is true of all the binary cam bows. (3) I believe you will find after all this is done you will need to establish 2 turns of additional ******ation to the top cam in order to establish proper letoff. To check this have your son go to a bow shop and have them check his peak draw weight and holding weight. If the bow is a 70# bow maxed out to 70#, the holding weight should be 14# if it is 24.5# it is at 65% letoff. How much the cables need to be adjusted is dependent on what the holding weight is. I'm assuming we are talking about trying to achieve 80% letoff. Didn't mean to write a book but want to make myself clear.
Dave Nowlin


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## Top Cat

Thanks for your patience and I think I got the whole picture now.


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## Twang!

Anyone who buys this cam and a it's problems deserves it. There is no reason a shooter should want to deal with all the critical tuning. It has got to be the worst designed cam ever. There have been some in the past that were a tuning problem but not any that will lock up at full draw. Bowtech will change this cam for next year. There are so many better cams on the market today.


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## Champion Shootr

This cam is not as critical as everyone would have you believe it to be. My Old Glory is set up with a trophy taker and it comes up in the last 1.5 inches of draw. I have not touched the cables from the factory settings and I have a holding weight of 12.5 lbs on a 61 lb max bow. I don't know where 2 twists would make a hill of beans difference. It definitly won't change your letoff from 80 to 65. I can see a small change in letoff, but nowhere near that much. 2 twists will not change the cable length that much.


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## grouse

Oh brother, here we go again. Dave, just relax, breathe, it will be OK.


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## Dave Nowlin

I'm breathing brother and all is well here in Savannah tonight. I share with people to help them avoid pitfalls. But hey, if they still want to jump in the pit, I'll get out of their way. Especially since the Trophy Taker people just last week told me you need to bring it up in the last 1/2 inch on these binary cam bows. Oh well. 
Dave Nowlin


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## Champion Shootr

Sorry, but I can't believe it to make that much of a difference. You have your opinion and the others have theirs. I would like to know about the people who attach their cord to the cable slide. Does this affect the bow the same way? If you'd like to pm me and explain exactly how 2 twists takes a bow from 65 to 80 percent letoff I'd like to hear it. I do believe you're right about not attaching it too short so it pulls on the cable, but I can't believe my bow will lock up if I put 4 twists into the cable leading to the top cam.


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## Dave Nowlin

Tell you what. Let's keep all this out in the open, sleeves rolled up, both hands on the table. Take your own bow put it in a press and adjust it so that the string posts on the top and bottom cams are 1/16 inch from the front face of the limbs. Now get a good scale and check peak draw force and holding weight. Do the math and see if you don't get 65% Now add 2 twists to the cable attached to the top cam. Now go back to the scale and repeat the exercise and do the math. Then come back here and tell us all how much you have learned. Nuff said.
Dave Nowlin


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## Jerry/NJ

I know both of my binary cam bows (Allegiance and Defender) were at 70% let off after I put my dropaways on....as Dave said, I added some twists and I have 80%. The man knows what he is talkin about!


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## Champion Shootr

Well, that's not what I'm coming up with. I asked him to pm me and explain his thought behind this, but as of yet no pm. If he can get my bow to shoot better than it already is I'm all for it. I'm open to anyone who can help, but the numbers I come up with are different, and were viewed first hand by the shop owner tonight. thanks


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## Dave Nowlin

As I stated previously, I have no intention of discussing this off this thread. I have nothing to hide. These findings of mine have been found to be true by Mike "Crackers" Carter, Jerry/NJ, Buckfeverben, and countless others I have helped tune these bows. Much of what I have learned has been with the help of Mike Carter. It's simple with both cams timed identically you have no valley and 65% letoff. When you then ****** the top cam by 2 twists you have a valley and 80% letoff. I didn't design the cams so I won't pretend I fully understand exactly why these cams behave this way. By the way, some of the people I have advised about these bows have been engineers and although my advice worked for them I'm not sure they fully understand why these cams work this way. I don't understand all there is to know about electricity either, but I have learned better than to stick my finger in a receptacle.  
Dave Nowlin


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## Champion Shootr

I really would like to discuss this with you further. You state what you have stated from the beginning, but give no proof of what you say. If it is true, and you know something the rest of us don't fine, but you are the one who brought this up now please provide some proof other than dropping names of people who supposedly agree with you. I have nothing to hide either, just prefer not to drag this stuff through the forum, I would rather do it in private. Like I said before, if you can make my bow shoot better than it does now fine I will listen with both ears, but if not please don't try to scare people into thinking their bows will lock up on them if they don't do as you say. 
Bowtech will be at DU's great outdoors festival this weekend and I will ask them their opinion on this subject.


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## JAVI

That's pretty much how all hybrid cams work... two twists in one cable can have a huge effect... I would think the let-off issue is from histeresis more than the valley created by ******ing the cam...


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## Dave Nowlin

Please do and talk to Jamie Coleman or Todd if they are there. But will you believe them if they don't appeal to your preconceived notions? I gave you a test to do, a test others have done and it worked for them. I can't teach you anything. You have a closed mind. So I told you how to prove it to yourself. If that doesn't work ,God help you my friend, I can't. 
Dave Nowlin


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## Champion Shootr

I have a closed mind? I already told you I set up bows from the factory with drop aways and haven't seen this effect. How am I the one who's wrong here. Sorry I have a different opinion than you. I still have 79 percent letoff with a trophy taker and I haven't twisted any cables. Once again, please show me how this works. I don't know how you think these are preconceived notions, I had no previous experience with the binary cams before this year either. I'm on the same learning curve as everyone else. If someone can show me different I will greatly appreciate it. Don't assume people are closed minded just because they do not agree with you, if we all agreed all the time, there would be nothing to discuss. thank you and good night.


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## swampfox

*Bowtech tuning*

VERY GOOD THREAD DAVE

I made the mistake of giving my allegiance to a non bowtech pro shop. Who installed a windstalker and proudly anounced. "Oh I tuned your bow for you also." :mg: Dont let this happen to you! :mg: I shot the bow and tried to work around what they had done. I was afraid I was approaching a lock up before finally sending it to Carters archery. It is on its way back after being crackerized and new strings/cables. :teeth:


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## Top Cat

One last question and then I will shutup :wink: 
I have a Constitution recently purchased from Matt / Pa and it is 30" draw. I am going to have the cams changed to 28" draw cams. Can I use the same string and cablesor will they need to be changed also. 
Sorry Dave I just want to be sure I don't lock this thing up :mg:


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## NJDiverDan

Dave,

I have a constitution with a 33" dl. I have a TT rest on it as well. I believe I am experiencing the same effect (no valley, low let off). On inspecting the bow the top cam string post is a little closer to the limb than the bottom cam. Should I still put the 2 twists in the cable, or start with just one and see where it is at? Can putting 2 twists in cause the let off to go past 80% and possibly lock up the bow?

Thanks,

dan


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## buckfeverben

Dave, 

Let me just begin by saying your knowledge and advice are sincerely appreciated by myself as well as many others on here as well. 

I have taken Dave's advice for restoring 80% letoff with binary cams on my allegiance, and also passed on the info to others I know shooting the same cams with dropaways. Do I fully understand why this works? No, I don't. But I can tell you it definately does work. What I think Dave is trying to do here is educate the people who like to tinker and hopefully avoid somebody locking up their bow. These cams are not as high maintenance as some might think reading this thread. They do not go out of time, they shoot fantastic, this entire issue is only regarding letoff % for binary cams and dropaway rest that tie into the down cable. Simple as that. 

Maybe the reason these cams are so critical of any added pressure on the cables is because the cables themselves work in unison with both cams. Hence the name, Binary. BINARY CAMS are not anchored to some other part of the bow, they're anchored only to each other, so they function as a smooth and seamless single unit. 

Here's some reading for those who want to learn more about how this cam system works and why it's probably the best dual cam bow on the market right now. 

http://www.bowtecharchery.com/whats_new/BinarySys.htm


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## preyquester

i would think the safe thing to do for lock up would be stick a allen wrench in the cam till you find a press at least it wont let go & eat a finger or blow up...


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## Dave Nowlin

Top Cat, The draw length is controlled 100% with the cams. The string and cable length should be the same regardless of the cam.
NJDiver Dan, I would go 1 twist at a time and always check your letoff before going further. That way you will be completely safe. Regarding your question about lockup. If you are shooting a Binary Cam bow with a Whisker Biscuit or other fixed rest and using the stock cable guide rod I would expect lockup of the bow to occur somewhere around 4 to 5 turns past the point where the cams are timed exactly the same. I haven't proved this and won't as I will not lock up my bow just to prove a point to anbody. What I am doing here is just extending a known. When both cams are tuned exactly the same with string posts 1/16 inch from the limb face the bow is at 65% letoff. When 2 twists are added to the top cam the bow goes to 80% letoff so it gained 15% in 2 twists of the top cable. If this gain is linear and I'm not truly sure but will assume so to err on the side of safety, then 2 additional twists would put the bow at 95%. Remember this is with no further influence on the cables. No Windstalker or fallaway rest. When these things are added and letoff goes down, not up, we must compensate carefully to return the bow to 80%. Please, let no one reading this thread experiment to try and see how far past 80% you can go without having problems. Disaster is waiting in the bushes just around the bend in the trail. DON'T GO THERE.
Dave Nowlin


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## terrym

Dave Nowlin,

I presently shoot an 03 Patriot and am thinking of an Allegiance next year. I want to thank you for sharing your expertise here and above all for your patience. Lots of people wouldn't bother to put up with some of the grief. I think I still want an Allegiance since I only draw 27" and these seem particularly fast at the shorter draw lengths. I must admit though that I might go back to a Wisker bisquit for that bow, I'm primarily a hunter anyway. Thanks again for all your help.


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## alain

I know you can lock your bow if you are putting to much twist on the cables but if you take off some twist on the cables to shorten your DL it is dangerous to lock it too?


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## grouse

Doesn't look linear to me.


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## Dave Nowlin

alain, I must begin by saying the draw length on these bows is supposed to be changed by going with different modules. While some draw length changes can be made with the cables we are only talking about + or- 1/4 inch at best. These modules are available in 1/2 inch increments. The problem with trying to make significant draw length changes with strings and cables is you will throw the bow so far out of spec you will lose a significant amount of it's efficiency. Let me give you an example. Let's say we begin by timing the bow so that each of the string posts is 1/4 inch out from the front face of the limbs and then we add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam. This bow should give no locking up problems because the top cam is only ******ed 2 twists relative to the bottom cam as before. The draw cycle will now be shorter as the top cam rotates less before the draw stop peg hits the limb. The problem here is that you use less of the available cam and lose energy. Will the bow be safe to shoot that way. I believe so. But I have to ask a question, if you didn't want to use all of the available energy produced by one of the most efficient cam systems on the planet, why did you buy a Binary Cam bow? There are many bows you could have bought for far less money, if the energy and the speed it produces weren't important to you. Also when you do the above experiment your A to A will increase and your poundage will change by a small amount. Of course we could get ridiculous and time it so the string posts are 1/2 inch from the limb face then add 2 twists to the top cable. I just don't understand why we would want to do that.
Dave Nowlin


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## alain

Thanks for the reply. Dave when you check for the lobe (1/16 or even) and limb the bow must be at its makimum weight? Mine at 67 pounds the top is even and the bottom one is about 1/16 . At 70 pounds the top one will be i bit inside and the bottom one will be even does its sound right.

Thanks!


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## Dave Nowlin

alain, mine is abot a 1/16 on the botom cam and the top cam just the edge is barely below the limb, however you must take into account that I have a Windstalker Cable Guide on my bow which requires 2 additional twists. Yours is just a little off, not much. Do you want to put it in a press and get it perfect? Only you can answer that. Should you do that turn your limb bolts all the way in first.
Dave Nowlin


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## alain

So Dave how can i put it perfect? I put my bow at 70 pounds and the top lob is like yours its a bit inside the limb and the bottom one is even.


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## Scottie

Dave,

I have an Old Glory . I installed a Windstalker on it. For 3D season, I shot a TT drop away and did nothing to the bow. The peak draw weight stayed the same and let-off did not appear to be any different. I'm not saying it wasn't, I just could not tell if it was or not and never have checked it.

It was and is now 61 lbs. I just took the TT and off and put a WB on it for hunting season. Seems to be fine yet. It sure does shoot straight anyway. Do you think I need to check it out?

If I am getting this, I should probably be at around 70% let-off if I have the Windstalker installed and should consider twisting the upper cable 2x (1 twist at a time)to get back to 80% ???

What if the bow seems to be shooting fine. Do you think a fairly good shooter (not pro level by any means)will be able to notice a performance difference in the bow from 70 to 80%? 

I've talked to a Pro Shop and they don't seem to be "up to tune" on this topic so to speak. Any advice/help very much appreciated!


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## bry2476

*I have the solution Get a Mathews, Trophy Ridge Drop Zone, throw away windstalker*



Dave Nowlin said:


> Let me begin by saying, this is not a bashing thread. It is being posted for informational purposes. As I have stated many times before, when timing these bows it is necessary to get the string posts 1/16 inch from the face of the limb and then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam. If you don't add the 2 twists the bow will be at 65% letoff, even though the draw stop peg is set at the 80% position. Now stop and think for a moment. The letoff was increased by 15% by establishing a difference of 2 twists between the cams. When someone adds a fallaway rest 2 more twists must be added to restore proper letoff and when someone adds a Windstalker 2 more twists are generally needed to restore proper letoff. Now let's say this person decides to remove the Windstalker and changes rests to a Whisker Biscuit and does not remove these 4 twists. Instant lockup and at least 2 have recently had limbs destroyed and cams damaged by forgetting to do these things. Folks these are great bows but they require we put on our thinking caps when we make adjustments to them. Enjoy your bow but please use care when adjusting it. As they say"this ain't your daddy's bow" and it can't be adjusted with the reckless abandon he could have gotten away with. Another thing is this, when you change strings and are installing new ones make sure your timing measurements are correct before drawing the bow, as if they are far out of spec you might lock it up. Remember you can adjust all you like with it out of spec, but don't draw it until your measurements show it to be in spec. Then many of these threads about locked up bows and destroyed limbs will go away.
> Dave Nowlin


  

Just kidding guys, Seems kind of dangerous, bow locking up, go with a simple setup and you can't go wrong.

This thread has turned me against bowtech, windstalker, and any rest that uses a cord. :sad: 

Good luck guys


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## Champion Shootr

Scottie said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have an Old Glory . I installed a Windstalker on it. For 3D season, I shot a TT drop away and did nothing to the bow. The peak draw weight stayed the same and let-off did not appear to be any different. I'm not saying it wasn't, I just could not tell if it was or not and never have checked it.
> 
> It was and is now 61 lbs. I just took the TT and off and put a WB on it for hunting season. Seems to be fine yet. It sure does shoot straight anyway. Do you think I need to check it out?
> 
> If I am getting this, I should probably be at around 70% let-off if I have the Windstalker installed and should consider twisting the upper cable 2x (1 twist at a time)to get back to 80% ???
> 
> What if the bow seems to be shooting fine. Do you think a fairly good shooter (not pro level by any means)will be able to notice a performance difference in the bow from 70 to 80%?
> 
> I've talked to a Pro Shop and they don't seem to be "up to tune" on this topic so to speak. Any advice/help very much appreciated!



Scottie, you can call or stop by and visit The Archery Shack in Neenah, Shaft Sports in Waupun or Black wolf archery in North FondduLac, and they will give you the answer you're looking for. All 3 are good shops who know what they are talking about and will be able to put it on a scale for you to let you know what your letoff is. Mine is 79% with the TT rest attached, and I didn't do anything to my cables.


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## 1smoothredneck

Stash said:


> Seems to me that any bow which is that sensitive to such tiny adjustments might not be worth the bother.
> 
> Why would anyone want to spend that much time and effort to try to shoot a bow that seems to be both dangerous and hyper-critical? There are plenty of top models that shoot just as well without being so hard to tune.
> 
> Not a bash - just enlighten me about what's so special about this particular bow that warrants this amount of critical adjustment.


Uh, yea. I'm with 'ya Stash. Anything this critical has got to be over a country boys head! 
Throw it down and run!!! :mg: Too funny!


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## Scottie

Champion Shootr said:


> Scottie, you can call or stop by and visit The Archery Shack in Neenah, Shaft Sports in Waupun or Black wolf archery in North FondduLac, and they will give you the answer you're looking for. All 3 are good shops who know what they are talking about and will be able to put it on a scale for you to let you know what your letoff is. Mine is 79% with the TT rest attached, and I didn't do anything to my cables.


I called a shop near my office today (not one of those above) and asked about the concerns on this thread and they said they never heard of any needed cable twisting to adjust the let-off % on the binary cams and not to worry about it. But this thread has started for a reason, right? Even I know that twisting the strings/cables will effect let-off and draw length.

I tried explaining the Windstalker concept to this shop and then realized that they did not even know what I was talking about. Never heard of a Windstalker Cable Guard; and this wasn't a Gander Mountain, it was Pro Shop. 

I get to the Valley once a month or so so I'll just wait and stop by Todd at The Archery Shack next time I get up there. It's been awhile since he's rolled his eyes at me anyway. 

Since my bow is shooting good, I never really worried about any of this until I read this thread, now I can't stop thinking about it. TINKER, TINKER; here we go again.


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## Bertsboy

*Constitution binary cam not timed the same as allegiance*

Just a quick word, because I saw someone asking about he Constitution. The Constitution cam is not timed the same as the Old Glory or Allegiance. If you put the string lobes 1/16 th away from the limbs as the allegiance and Old Glory, the pundage of your bow will dramitically increase. The timing was changed to allow for longer draw lengths on the Constitution. The top cam should still be retarted, just differnect positions on the cam.

I wish I had pictures, but I do not. I found this out when someone had changed out the cams, strings and cables on a Constitution and tried to time it like an Old Glory. Bow went from 60lbs to well over 70lbs. I called Bowtech and talked to Jaimie to get it figured out.


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## Top Cat

Bertsboy, I will get your view first then I would like Dave's opinion. I really want to get this right. I am taking my Constitution to get the cams changed Thursday.
What is the measurment Jaimie gave you for the posts on this bow. Also after I set it at that measurment do I still put 2 twists in the cable to restore 801% letoff.


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## Bertsboy

*Measurements*

I don't have the info with me now. I am going to the shop tonight, I will try and find the measurements and post them. Dave may already know.


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## Dave Nowlin

I haven't ever had any experience with the Constitution, but I bet you still have to ****** the top cam 2 twists as the cams are the same. I can understand they may be timed different. Check with Mike " Crackers" Carter he can tell you exactly how to time them. In fact he just might be able to tell you more about them then anybody.
Dave Nowlin


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## PA.JAY

I read every post on here But I still did'nt read were a starting point would be ? 
I'm puttin new string & cable on my OG. I picked up 5 different bows @ the shop all the post were in different places ! what might take 2 twist in one would take 6-7 on another? were is the ideal marks before twisting begins ?
a picture would help alot.


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## Dave Nowlin

Begin by getting you A to A correct, then take whatever twists are necessary in your cables to reach a point where the post the string attaches to is 1/16 inch from the front face of the limb top and bottom, then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam. That is the post closest to the riser and it is attached to the center track on the cam. Is that word picture sufficient. I hope so as it's the best I can do and it has worked for many others.
Dave Nowlin


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## Bellows1

here ya go.


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## Scottie

*Dave Nowlin*



Scottie said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have an Old Glory . I installed a Windstalker on it. For 3D season, I shot a TT drop away and did nothing to the bow. The peak draw weight stayed the same and let-off did not appear to be any different. I'm not saying it wasn't, I just could not tell if it was or not and never have checked it.
> 
> It was and is now 61 lbs. I just took the TT and off and put a WB on it for hunting season. Seems to be fine yet. It sure does shoot straight anyway. Do you think I need to check it out?
> 
> If I am getting this, I should probably be at around 70% let-off if I have the Windstalker installed and should consider twisting the upper cable 2x (1 twist at a time)to get back to 80% ???
> 
> What if the bow seems to be shooting fine. Do you think a fairly good shooter (not pro level by any means)will be able to notice a performance difference in the bow from 70 to 80%?
> 
> I've talked to a Pro Shop and they don't seem to be "up to tune" on this topic so to speak. Any advice/help very much appreciated!


Dave Nowlin, I appreciate your free advice on this. If you get a minute could you answer my previous post. Thanks much.


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## Bowdoc

*Beware of what?*

Gentlemen, I have just read all of the posts that have been written on this subject and now I have some questions 1. Since when does a binary cam system have a module? 2. Since when does the definition of a Hybrid cam fit the binary cam? 3. by twisting both cables on this system will do nothing but increase or decrease the poundage and will equalize the cam timing. I have sold approx 200 binary cam bows this year alone and have not experienced any lock-ups on any of these bows ( Must have gotten a good batch). I have installed probably 2/3 of these bows with trophy takers and have not experienced any excesive let off changes. 2 twists on the cable for the cam with the stop will ever so slightly change poundage and let off but I have not seen enough change to worry about it. The talk here that it is dramatic and can cause a serious problem is unfounded in this shop so until someone can prove this to me I personally will have to regard this info as bull pucky. I will be having a meeting with Pat from Bowtech here at my shop on Thursday and I will discuss this at lenght with him. But until proven wrong (and we tried it tonight) I stand as NO CHANGE, NO WORRY.


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## JAVI

Bowdoc said:
 

> Gentlemen, I have just read all of the posts that have been written on this subject and now I have some questions 1. Since when does a binary cam system have a module? 2. Since when does the definition of a Hybrid cam fit the binary cam? 3. by twisting both cables on this system will do nothing but increase or decrease the poundage and will equalize the cam timing. I have sold approx 200 binary cam bows this year alone and have not experienced any lock-ups on any of these bows ( Must have gotten a good batch). I have installed probably 2/3 of these bows with trophy takers and have not experienced any excesive let off changes. 2 twists on the cable for the cam with the stop will ever so slightly change poundage and let off but I have not seen enough change to worry about it. The talk here that it is dramatic and can cause a serious problem is unfounded in this shop so until someone can prove this to me I personally will have to regard this info as bull pucky. I will be having a meeting with Pat from Bowtech here at my shop on Thursday and I will discuss this at lenght with him. But until proven wrong (and we tried it tonight) I stand as NO CHANGE, NO WORRY.


Never called it a hybrid cam… I was just comparing the similarities… but if it walks like and quacks like……..

Call it what you want…. 

As to the cam timing and sync issues that Dave reported (well less the lockup, which I believe is warned about on the Bow Tech website) the similarities in adjustment and effects are many… and anything that has the effect of shortening one of the cables will affect the timing (however minutely) on any BINARY, Hybrid, or 2 cam bow.... True or not...???


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## Champion Shootr

Yes, Javi I believe you are right. It will minutely change the letoff, but 2 twists will not change it by 15%. I am very interested to see what Pat has to say. Hopefully I'll get a chance to talk to him at DU in Oshkosh this weekend.


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## Scottie

Bowdoc said:


> Gentlemen, I have just read all of the posts that have been written on this subject and now I have some questions 1. Since when does a binary cam system have a module? 2. Since when does the definition of a Hybrid cam fit the binary cam? 3. by twisting both cables on this system will do nothing but increase or decrease the poundage and will equalize the cam timing. I have sold approx 200 binary cam bows this year alone and have not experienced any lock-ups on any of these bows ( Must have gotten a good batch). I have installed probably 2/3 of these bows with trophy takers and have not experienced any excesive let off changes. 2 twists on the cable for the cam with the stop will ever so slightly change poundage and let off but I have not seen enough change to worry about it. The talk here that it is dramatic and can cause a serious problem is unfounded in this shop so until someone can prove this to me I personally will have to regard this info as bull pucky. I will be having a meeting with Pat from Bowtech here at my shop on Thursday and I will discuss this at lenght with him. But until proven wrong (and we tried it tonight) I stand as NO CHANGE, NO WORRY.


I was wondering when you were going to get in on this! I know how busy you guys can get so I don't like calling. I was planning on stopping in soon to get your opinion/feedback on this one.

I can understand minute changes, but what is being discussed here just seems a little overbearing. I'm stopping in tomorrow so you can check my let-off and make sure everything is OK. Just need to have you give me some "peace of mind again". I feel good though, knowing my OG throws darts while still out of tune!

One question that has not been asked though; "If the let-off on these binary cams is _*designed*_ to be adjusted from 65 to 80%, why do we need to make sure we are shooting at or near 80%." It does not make sense to me that Bowtech would allow us to shoot a bow in a range that will not provide optimal performance. That, to me, takes away from the concept of this binary design. 

I understand Dave Knowlin is trying to make sure we do not go past 80%, or it could lock up. My question goes the other way. If by putting the Windstalker on my let-off dropped to say 70%, why would that not work for this bow in thoery as good as shooting it at 80%?

- Scottie


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## JAVI

Champion Shootr said:


> Yes, Javi I believe you are right. It will minutely change the letoff, but 2 twists will not change it by 15%. I am very interested to see what Pat has to say. Hopefully I'll get a chance to talk to him at DU in Oshkosh this weekend.


I have my own theories on the let-off issue… On the HYBRID cams putting them out of sync or draw stop timing will cause what I call a false valley… and if you do not allow for the increased hysteresis it could account for the readings being reported..


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## Champion Shootr

Are you saying that the increased pull from a drop away cord will distort a cable so much that it will not return to its original dimensions? That's what your considering as hysterisis I assume. If I'm following correctly here you're stating that the cord from a dropaway is somehow causing the cable not to go back to its original state and causing false letoff readings. Please feel free to correct me here, but I can't see how a fall away will place that much more stress than is already placed on the cable.


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## Dave Nowlin

If you go back to the original design the 65% is achieved by short stopping the cam. That is you move the draw stop away from its maximum setting and stop the draw stroke a little short. This takes away the valley. Basically you simply pull had into the wall much like on a Hoyt Spiral Cam. When you add the 2 twists it allows you to reach 80%. Why was it designed this way? Beats me. With the bow set up this way you can always adjust the draw stop and get 65% if you like. Regarding Scotties question posed earlier. Check your letoff, if your draw stop is at maximum setting and the math shows 80%, you don't need to do a thing. I will note that as you near 80% your valley gets bigger. If it is less than 80% add 1 twist to the top cable and check again. When it reaches 80% don't go any farther. I'm afraid some have failed to get the point of these posts. The main thing I am trying to warn against is going past 80%. If some of you have somehow gotten different results, than some I have stated from my observations, that's fine. That doesn't bother me one bit. Some have failed to get the point of the post even though I have stated it over and over again, I'm simply trying to get folks to proceed with caution and check yourself as you go when adjusting these bows. I've ended up covering many other things, but only in response to questions some of you have had. Strangely many of you agree with my observations from personal experience and some feel I am more full of hot air than a balloon. Oh well , I'll be 63 in October and I have observed in all these years you can never please everybody. So my advice to anybody would be,"follow your conscience."
Dave Nowlin


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## JAVI

Champion Shootr said:


> Are you saying that the increased pull from a drop away cord will distort a cable so much that it will not return to its original dimensions? That's what your considering as hysterisis I assume. If I'm following correctly here you're stating that the cord from a dropaway is somehow causing the cable not to go back to its original state and causing false letoff readings. Please feel free to correct me here, but I can't see how a fall away will place that much more stress than is already placed on the cable.


The hysteresis is from creating a valley by purposefully setting the cams out of time...

And no you missed the point about the cable; as the bow is drawn, the cord from the rest ******s the buss cable; causing the cams to be out of time. If you timed it with the cord tied in, the draw stop timing would be correct, but the cam sync could be affected. The degree will depend on how short you have the cord tied... Either way the performance of the bow will be degraded. And yes I've tested this several times on my own Hoyts, since I use and recommend the TT for hunting. I will however admit that I don't get overly concerned with let-off on my hunting bow; actually I use spirals and like 60% or so. At the draw weight I shoot, I find it more accurate than the lesser holding weights.


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## harleyryder

I think I understand it all now and thats one of the reasons why I sold my 2 bowtechs and bought a Switchback, I gave Bowtech a very serious try and I'm not going to sit here and bash them,I'm just going to pick up my Switchback and go out and shoot (no fuss,no muss)


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## curs1

Just a word of advice not knocking anyone. If your not sure of your setup send crackers a pm . Some of this information is correct but some of it is a little misleading and could be the cause of screwups. I hate to see any one have problems from misunderstanding the information in this thread.
If I can help feel free to drop me a pm any time
Evan


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## Bertsboy

*Constitution set up*

In the following picture, there is a lobe with a hole in it to the left of the string lobe. The bottom of this whole should be even with the top of the limb. Once this is done with top and bottom cam, then , as Dave says, but two twist in the top cable. This should put you at 80% let off on the Constitution.


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## Bowdoc

This bow is what Bowtech calls it and that is an equalizing binary cam system. Equalizing which means that it times it self by equalizing the rotation of the cam or balancing the cams. This is done by taking the limbs out of the timing equation. Binary meaning 2 cams. This does not have a string, a control cable and a power cable that are all different lengths, this has a string and 2 matched cables (matched as close as man can make them). As I see it, let off is the only issue here and I believe that this has been blown way out of proportion.


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## curs1

Bowdoc
I agree 100 percent though let off is important. This thread is kinda misleading in part.


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## elk stalker

Very informative thread. Thanks. 
You shouldn't have let off issues with a fallaway rest that does not connect to the cable, ie a trap door or a fallaway like this. Am I right on this?


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## Dave Nowlin

As long as no pressure is applied to the cables you shouldn't have to make any corrections. However I will say again, if you have any doubt whatsoever check your letoff. It will tell the story. If it's O.K. all is well. If not correct until you reach 80% and no more. The key words are"80%."
Dave Nowlin


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## Doehunter

The binary cam system sounds like alot of garbage to me.Why would anyone want a bow that is so sensitive.Not everyone owns a press or can run to the pro shop crying when something isnt just right.Buy a Mathews and forget about it.


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## Top Cat

Doehunter said:


> The binary cam system sounds like alot of garbage to me.Why would anyone want a bow that is so sensitive.Not everyone owns a press or can run to the pro shop crying when something isnt just right.Buy a Mathews and forget about it.


Opinions are like ... holes. Everybody has one


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## Doehunter

True top cat and everyone is entitled to one.


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## Dave Nowlin

I think what you are failing to understand doehunter, is that once the bow is timed correctly, it will stay that way until you need to replace your string and cables. I don't wish to bash but I printed out a very detailed thread on tuning the Mathews Switchback. This thread was very informative but definitely indicated the Switchback needed to be set up correctly in order to perform well. Guess what the binary cam bows do too, so where is the difference? By the way I simply read that thread rather than post and bash. Could you do the same favor for those who own binary cam bows?
Dave Nowlin


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## LA Archer

I haven't had a lot of time to try to learn everything I can with the binary cam since I bought them a couple of months ago. However, Javi and I were talking the other night and I told him that my Allegiance has a completely different feel than my Constitution. After looking at them my Allegiance has both string posts on top and bottom cam the same distance from the limb face. On the other hand my Constitution does not, the top cam is ahead of the bottom or the string peg is closer the the limb face. I don't know how many twists in the cable difference, but I do know it is a great deal of difference in the feel of the cam. I also know that it doesn't take many twists in the cables at all to significantly change the let off and valley. All of this to say Dave,,,you ROCK!! I think you are right on. I will further investigate this week and weekend.


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## powderfinger

I have a couple questions and please forgive me if I missed the answers somewhere in here.

1. Dave stated that a dropaway needs to be tied 6" inches below the rest. Is that at full draw or let down? I hope you mean fuill draw because 6" seems like a lot of string...

2. Nevermind #2, brain fart...

I love this crap!


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## steve hilliard

*Good one Evan*



curs1 said:


> Just a word of advice not knocking anyone. If your not sure of your setup send crackers a pm . Some of this information is correct but some of it is a little misleading and could be the cause of screwups. I hate to see any one have problems from misunderstanding the information in this thread.
> If I can help feel free to drop me a pm any time
> Evan


I would add , that most of this is good advice but its not rocket science so dont let it discourage you. It is really quite simple.  and I would like to add I would be more than happy to help out if I can as well.


----------



## strungout

What!, not a single "buy a Hoyt" comment? How disappointing is that..

I just wanna know what law is going to be written to protect second hand buyers of these things. Human nature surely does not support a predisposal safety plan in this disposable world we live in...

Seems just about criminal to make such adjustments without a big waterproof warning label being attached.. :zip:


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## GWN_Nuge

First off Dave I'd like to say a big thank you for your patience and detailed descriptions. A buddy of mine is going to be very happy with learning about this behaviour. This thread explains a lot with regards to the behaviour of the following scenario:

One friend (Brian) has an old glory with a 28" draw length and 70 lb limbs with a cobra dropaway tied into the down cable. The dropaway lifts at around the last inch of the draw cycle.

Another friend (Sammy) also has an old glory with a 27 1/2" draw with 60 lb limbs with a lizard tounge for a rest.

Neither bow has been tweaked with regards to bus/string length i.e. they're set up the way they came from the factory. Guess which bow has the proper valley and letoff? You guessed it, Sammy's bow. Brian's bow has a relatively low letoff as compared to Sammy's bow as well as the valley is very short thus explaining the low let-off in the first place. As well, repositioning the draw stop is set on Brian's bow produces very little effect.

Now that I have some detailed information for him at least now we can properly diagnose the source of the problem, pull the dropaway rest off to ensure that's the source of the problem, reinstall the dropaway properly and then go through Dave's steps to get it back to snuff.

Thanks again Dave and what you're saying makes perfect sense as I've seen the problem your describing first hand however we were unsure as to what the source of the problem was.

Cheers,


----------



## Dave Nowlin

strungout, I know we don't all approach things in the same way, that said, if I bought a used bow I would attempt to obtain a manual for it before making uninformed adjustments. In fact a couple of years back I scolded BowTech because they had shipped out new bows with no instruction manuals. I wasn't saying their bows were no good in that thread. I was saying it was irresponsible to be shipping all those bows without instructions. Many here made fun of me at the time. In fact some commented, "who reads the instruction manual anyway." I do for one, when I can obtain it. It just makes good sense. I have 3 BowTech bows a 2003, 2004 & 2005 and in my left hand top desk drawer there are 3 BowTech manuals.
GWN Nuge, Just glad I could help. That was the whole purpose of this thread. A sincere desire to help others. Maybe I could coin a catchy phrase like, "archers helping archers."  
Dave Nowlin


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## grouse

harleyryder said:


> I think I understand it all now and thats one of the reasons why I sold my 2 bowtechs and bought a Switchback, I gave Bowtech a very serious try and I'm not going to sit here and bash them,I'm just going to pick up my Switchback and go out and shoot (no fuss,no muss)



Lastnight I shot my Ovation, my hybrid cam newberry and my binary cam bow. There is no question that the draw with the binary cams is better. Smooth as butter. Where can you find a "2 cam" bow with 80% let off, smooth draw and the kinds of speed that the binary cams produce? They are just awesome.


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## Dave Nowlin

Yep, the binaries are awesome. Wait til November 1st and the second generation binaries. I've got a feeling you might not be able to lock up next years binaries. It will be another story of the best just keeps getting better.  
Dave Nowlin


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## Doehunter

Hey Dave I wasnt bashing,sorry if you (or anyone else) took it that way.Honest.Just saw a chance to be a smart***.I honestly dont beleive one high end bow is any better than the other.In my opinion its all in what you as an individual have confidence in whether it be Mathews,Bowtech,Hoyt,etc.For me its Mathews,and the guy I do my business with shoots foe them.So Im pretty confident that when I leave his shop my equipment is set up right.Im getting of the subject here.I wasnt bashing.


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## Dave Nowlin

Doehunter, I had a conversation with a fella just today who shall remain nameless as what he told me was in confidence. He is shooting a Switchback and told me he had it in and out of his press at least 12 times last night replacing his string and cable and getting everything tuned properly. He has also worked with binary cam bows and assured me the binary cam bows are no more difficult to set up than his Switchback. This isn't meant to question your choice of bows. Although the Switchback does require some maintenance to keep the idler properly aligned, which does in fact require a bow press. It is meant to question your choice of words and your choice to insert them in this thread. As has already been mentioned, the purpose of this thread was to provide a service to owners of Binary Cam bows. Period!!!
Dave Nowlin


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## Dave Nowlin

Don G, regarding you question about your A to A being a little longer and your draw weight having dropped, try taking 2 twists in your string and then retime the bow and see what that does for you. As I mentioned before, BowTech says A to A is plus or minus 1/8 inch. It sounds as though you may have had a little string stretch. I'm surprised it had that great an effect on your draw weight. Another thought is it might not have been properly timed when you got it. Another fella posted on here that he went to a BowTech shop to measure to figure out how to time his bow and every one of the new bows he checked was set up different.
Dave Nowlin


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## walks with a gi

Dave Nowlin said:


> Don G, regarding you question about your A to A being a little longer and your draw weight having dropped, try taking 2 twists in your string and then retime the bow and see what that does for you. As I mentioned before, BowTech says A to A is plus or minus 1/8 inch. It sounds as though you may have had a little string stretch. I'm surprised it had that great an effect on your draw weight. Another thought is it might not have been properly timed when you got it. Another fella posted on here that he went to a BowTech shop to measure to figure out how to time his bow and every one of the new bows he checked was set up different.
> Dave Nowlin


 Dave, he needs to put twists in his cables to gain draw weight, twisting the string will further decrease weight and shorten draw length,, if enough twists are applied.


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## Dave Nowlin

Gimp, He PMed me first. You didn't read about the whole thing. He wants to gain draw weight and shorten his A to A by 1/8 inch. If he shortens it with cables alone his bow won't be properly timed. He will therefore need to take twists in his string and cables to accomplish what he wants. He has apparently experienced some stretching in his cables and strings.
Dave Nowlin


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## walks with a gi

You're right,, I didn't read the whole thing


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## ZA206

*Answer to someone...*

Whoever asked the "why would two twists make a difference?".... here is your answer.

These cams get their let-off by the amount they rotate. That' what the simple draw stop peg is for... it's adjustable... let the cams rotate futher into the draw cycle, the more let-off & valley you get. Less rotation, less valley, less let-off. SIMPLE!

BTW, I'm one of the ones that Dave reffered to that had locked up their Allegiance and FUBARED it. This was NOT COOL! As Dave has also said, it didn't take too many twists to get it to this point. I used the wrong reference points (the word "lobe" was being used instead of the proper word "string POST"..... there was confusion on my part).... and made adjustments using a "lobe" on the cam and NOT the string post. Bad news...

The mechanical mode that increases the letoff w/o moving the draw stop is by changing the cam rotation angle. When you add twists to the top cam, you "pre rotate" the cam... thus adding let-off and valley... it doesn't take too many more twists to go from 80% to 100% REAL FAST! 

When my bow dryfired, I think it was at about 98% letoff.... and we were cranking down on it in the bow-press. :mg: 

Do I still love my Allegiance.... YOU BET! Would I buy another one... IN A HEARTBEAT! Can you be an idiot and play around with the cables.... NO WAY!

-ZA206


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## Don_G

Thanks, Dave.


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## Dave Nowlin

Hey folks one of the folks this thread is dedicted to came out today and told you why this post was created. He is a ggod guy and a mechanical engineer but still had problems. 
Dave Nowlin


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## karday

*Wow*

Dave, I just aquired an Old Glory. Installed a Windstalker and an STS. I had to take it to a dealer (today)to get the cams changed to get the right DL. Talked with the dealer and he had never seen a WS on any bow yet. He installed the new cams ( E2's yielded ~31.5" DL) and I shot the bow and it worked fine. Never any mention about any of this string compensation. We did discuss the LO as a function of the position of the cams stop. This bow does seem to have a very short valley as compared to my other bows. Is this a function of the WS an/or fallaway rest? As I understand your discussion, unless I want 80% LO I do not have to make any potentially risky cable adjustments?


Does Bowtech acknowledge any of these impacts or even know about them? I also learned that not all bow presses are suitable for these and any other VLT type bows.


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## Dave Nowlin

Go to a bow shop and have your peak draw force and holding force checked and do the math. Then only you can decide. If your letoff is 70% or less you really need to add a twist or 2 to the string to realize the potential of these bows. If you are slightly uncomfortable do 1 twist at a time shoot it a little to let the string settle and check again. Stop when you get to 80%. You'll thank me later.
Dave Nowlin


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## IMADMAN

*? on let off*

Hey Dave,
For those of us that don't have access to a draw board. Is there an equation to use, to determine let off?( Post #24 By Grouse has a formula is this correct?) Also can all the work needed to be done, be accomplished with a bowmaster press or similar portable press?Thanks in advance. :wink:


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## JAVI

Dave Nowlin said:


> Go to a bow shop and have your peak draw force and holding force checked and do the math. Then only you can decide. If your letoff is 70% or less you really need to add a twist or 2 to the string to realize the potential of these bows. If you are slightly uncomfortable do 1 twist at a time shoot it a little to let the string settle and check again. Stop when you get to 80%. You'll thank me later.
> Dave Nowlin


Dave I just have to ask... What if you like the increased holding weight offered by 65% let off; is the bow going to perform at less than optimum? It seems that is what you are implying... 

Have you mapped the speed increase available from the bow at both settings? And if so, which is the more efficient?


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## pdq 5oh

No, the Binary cams don't shoot less efficiently at 65% let off. To say they do is wrong. Some people, myself included, prefer less let off. Tying the lifting cord for a TT rest 6" below the rest is not necessary. Have any idea how long the cord would be? I've had no problems with drop aways causing tuning issues, other than rest adjustments as normally needed. If the rest is installed so as to put enough pressure on the down cable that it binds, it's not done properly. I can see where the Windstalker might cause some issues. And I think I'll stay away from them. A good slide has worked for quite some time, and will continue to work well.

IMADMAN, you can use a Bowmaster to work on these bows.


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## Deer Tat

*imadman*

Grouse is correct with the equation for % letoff

Draw weight minus holding weight, then divide by draw weight, then multiply by 100. 

Example. 70 pound bow holding 14 pounds

70 - 14 = 56 
56/70 = .8
.8 x 100 = 80 so 80%  
Hope this helped.


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## SCtrkyhntr

Has anyone experienced let-off differences by installing a Muzzy Zero effect rest? There are no chords that attach to the cables but the cable slide that comes with the rest pulls the cables farther to the right than the factory cable slide. The rest is rising the last 1" of my draw. I am getting the string replaced next week and I will check mine on the scale then. It does seem there is not much of a valley on my bow.


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## IMADMAN

Thanks Guys,
I really suck at math.


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## PA.JAY

not being a smart ass but you said in your first post 


> Let me begin by saying, this is not a bashing thread. It is being posted for informational purposes. As I have stated many times before, when timing these bows it is necessary to get the string posts 1/16 inch from the face of the limb and then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam
> 
> now you said
> 
> 
> 
> If your letoff is 70% or less you really need to add a twist or 2 to the string to realize the potential of these bows.
> 
> twist in cable or string ? I twisted the cable & feel no difference. still no valley
> should i of twisted the string ?
> like i said not being smart but i messed with it for couple of hours & nothing.
Click to expand...


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## Dave Nowlin

Javi, May I answer your question with one? Are you aware that these bows have an adjustable draw stop that can be used to set the bow at 65% while the bow is tuned properly. All you are really doing is shortstopping the cams rotation with the draw stop and you are using the portion of the cam the designer envisioned. Now if you don't ****** the top cam and simply set both cams the same you will have 65% letoff and utilize a slightly different portion of the cam to do it. If Kevin Strother had thought this was the right way to achieve 65%, then why didn't he make the draw stop peg fixed and tell people to remove 2 twists from their string to achieve 65% I don't honestly know, but if BowTech had thought that the acceptable and preferred way to do this why didn't they say so? It would have been simpler to make the cam with the draw stop peg nonadjustable. It would have taken away from their worries about folks removing the draw stop had it been permanently attached. I'm not trying to be augmentative here, simply throwing out some ideas.
Dave Nowlin


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## Ewolf

Here is my opinion on the 65% letoff. 
1. It is slower. In my bow 5 FPS
2. I would recommend taking the twist out of the cables. When the cams are not in time together, these bows do not have level nock travel. Anytime my cams are out, the way they were designed, my bareshaft will go low.
3. Why would bowtech not recommend taking twist out to get 65%? The same reason they say these bows don't have to be timed. Its all about what the customer wants. Many customers don't want to twist cables to get 65%. Riddle me this. 

Why didn't they put timing marks on these bows? IMO because if they are on the bow that means that bow needs to be timed (which it does). They don't want the customers to think of timing a bow. They want them to be easily adjustable.


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## Scottie

PA.JAY said:


> not being a smart ass but you said in your first post
> 
> 
> 
> Let me begin by saying, this is not a bashing thread. It is being posted for informational purposes. As I have stated many times before, when timing these bows it is necessary to get the string posts 1/16 inch from the face of the limb and then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam
> 
> now you said
> 
> 
> 
> If your letoff is 70% or less you really need to add a twist or 2 to the string to realize the potential of these bows.
> 
> twist in cable or string ? I twisted the cable & feel no difference. still no valley
> should i of twisted the string ?
> like i said not being smart but i messed with it for couple of hours & nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just thinking the same thing!
> 
> Dave,
> 
> My cams are timed. My LO peg is at 80%, but it is actually around 72%. I have a windstalker and a WB on and Old Glory. Recommendation to get to 80%? I want to make sure what I am 'spose to twist/untwist. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## mhammer

I am sooo glad people are talking about this... (regarding the Constitution)



LA Archer said:


> I haven't had a lot of time to try to learn everything I can with the binary cam since I bought them a couple of months ago. However, Javi and I were talking the other night and I told him that my Allegiance has a completely different feel than my Constitution. After looking at them my Allegiance has both string posts on top and bottom cam the same distance from the limb face. On the other hand my Constitution does not, the top cam is ahead of the bottom or the string peg is closer the the limb face. I don't know how many twists in the cable difference, but I do know it is a great deal of difference in the feel of the cam. I also know that it doesn't take many twists in the cables at all to significantly change the let off and valley. All of this to say Dave,,,you ROCK!! I think you are right on. I will further investigate this week and weekend.


I discussed this with Crackers via PM for a while, and then he must of grew tired of me and stopped responding to my questions.

I bought a Constitution this year, 29" , 70# and TT. Could NOT get this bow to shoot right. Anyhow, it turns out the even though the draw stop was set to 80% letoff, I wasn't getting it.. Not even close. Well after reading this I see that this is not uncommon.

Here's where it gets interesting- after setting this bow up and tearing it down several times with the TT installed, I finally decided I would need to take twists out of the bottom as well as add to the top AND I wanted to start at a reference point. So I removed the TT cable, and decided to go back to factory spec on the string, cable and ATA lenghts. Set this bow up again, and guess what? with TT removed and everything set to factory spec, letoff was not even close to 80%

What gives? Why not ? this is the published specification for the bow, right? I sent this bow back to Bowtech asking them to please fix it so that it meets the published specifications. I'll let you know how this goes as I will be getting it back sometime this week.

Anyhow, here is my opinion on what's the deal with the Constitution- #1 The cams sets are the same regardless of which binary model bow you get. #2 The binary cam sets are designed to work BEST with the very parallel limbed bows, ie allegiance, etc...these make up the majority, why not? what I mean to say is, the draw stop position works well with bows of that particular geometry. If you look at where the top cam stops rotating when the draw stop is set all the way out, you'll notice it's still in the power stroke and NOT the valley. The top cam can never physically get to the valley. The pre-rotation of the top limb is required on this bow (out of the box) because the bottom cam is providing all the felt letoff.
Therefore- this bow, (in this draw length?) is required to be MORE ******ed than any other bow in the lineup... hence a very different feel.

Conclusion... I don't like the idea of the top and bottom cams being in such a state of disimilarity (call it ******ation or whatever) I can't see this bow shooting well while one cam starts pulling from the power stroke and the other from the valley...this seems to me to be by definition "Out of Time"? Hopefully Bowtech will do something meaningful to fix this. I'll post here when I get the bow back.

Any thoughts from other Constitution owners are welcome :smile:


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## Dave Nowlin

Scottie, Take 1 twist out of the cable to the bottom cam and I believe you will be where you need to be.
Dave Nowlin


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## Top Cat

mhammer, I recently purchased a Constitution with 30" draw. I had the cams changed to 28" draw cams. Bow had no where near 80% letoff.
PM'd Crackers and 2 others on here and by going back to spec,then twisting up the cable that hooks to the top cam , got close to 80% but not spot on. I'm calling it close enough though, the bow shoots great,not a speed bow but accurate :smile:


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## pdq 5oh

One thing to remember re: valley on the E cam bows. With the draw curve, such as it is, the "perceived" valley is narrower than cams with the draw force curve building more at the end. With no "hump" to pull through, just before the valley, it may seem to be non-existent, or very narrow. People need to shoot these bows, and realize the draw curve is very different than what we're used to in single and dual cams. Some may not find it to their liking. Personally, I like the weight more at the front end. The bigger muscles are doing more work at that point. It's getting over the "hump" that cam present problems when cold and stiff from sitting in the cold, IMO. I feel this also aids in being able to draw the bow back smoothly and slowly, with no sudden movements.


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## mhammer

Top Cat said:


> mhammer, I recently purchased a Constitution with 30" draw. I had the cams changed to 28" draw cams. Bow had no where near 80% letoff.
> PM'd Crackers and 2 others on here and by going back to spec,then twisting up the cable that hooks to the top cam , got close to 80% but not spot on. I'm calling it close enough though, the bow shoots great,not a speed bow but accurate :smile:


Why is it not good enough just to go back to spec to get the 80% LO?
Why does this bow require dramatically different cam positions to get the published LO spec?

When I did my testing, I measured the poudage peak vs. holding with a scale. It wasn't just a short valley or a perception...it's not there.

I really like Bowtech, I've shot very well with my old Bowtech bow, but they have to address this.


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## Top Cat

mhammer, I'm sure they will address it. It will probably be a way different cam system for 2006. I'll bet the lock up thing will be a thing of the past.
I don't think the letoff is that big of a deal if you get a dealer who knows what he is doing.
I'm looking at the bright side,maybe I can pick up an allegence for cheap next year from someone who is afraid of it


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## Ewolf

The problem with the constitution goes deeper than simply getting your let off. They have unlevel nock travel when the cams are out of time. 

Solution: DON'T try this if you are a novice. It will lock your bow up if not done properly and slowly. Put the cams in perfect time on the constitution. Once there remove the draw stop. Remove some of the material on the 80% side of the hole. Then remove some of the material on that side of the nut. DO THIS IS SMALL AMOUNTS. Once you get to 80% you are done. The cams rotate the same as on the allegiance. Problem solved. Note:This will slightly lengthen your draw. 

Thats what I did.


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## mhammer

Ewolf said:


> The problem with the constitution goes deeper than simply getting your let off. They have unlevel nock travel when the cams are out of time.
> 
> Solution: DON'T try this if you are a novice. It will lock your bow up if not done properly and slowly. Put the cams in perfect time on the constitution. Once there remove the draw stop. Remove some of the material on the 80% side of the hole. Then remove some of the material on that side of the nut. DO THIS IS SMALL AMOUNTS. Once you get to 80% you are done. The cams rotate the same as on the allegiance. Problem solved. Note:This will slightly lengthen your draw.
> 
> Thats what I did.


You're going to get all the flack for saying it, but that is exactly what I was thinking!

I came very close to doing this myself before realizing, if this is the solution then Bowtech should do it, not me!

Geeeeez... I'm always wondering though, how so many others are able to make this bow shoot so well for them with making such a radical (throw out your warranty) change? 

How much material did you end up removing?


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## CHIMO

*Left Hand Shooter*

I looked at my bow (left hand Allegiance , Trophy taker drop away) and I can't see what you are talking about. My bow has the draw stop peg on the bottom cam. The drop away cable is attached to the cable which pulls to ward the bottom cam. I draw the bow back to the draw stop nothing timing wise changes unless I pull on the upper cable. Maybe the problem is having the draw stop on the top cam and the drop away cable pulling from the bottom cable. 



Chimo.


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## VorTexan

harleyryder said:


> I think I understand it all now and thats one of the reasons why I sold my 2 bowtechs and bought a Switchback, I gave Bowtech a very serious try and I'm not going to sit here and bash them,I'm just going to pick up my Switchback and go out and shoot (no fuss,no muss)



Harley?

Anybody else see the irony here? Where's the wrench?


Hey Dave, you sure know how to open a can of worms! Fastest growing thread on AT!


----------



## karday

*Roger the Math*

]Go to a bow shop and have your peak draw force and holding force checked and do the math. Then only you can decide. If your letoff is 70% or less you really need to add a twist or 2 to the string to realize the potential of these bows. If you are slightly uncomfortable do 1 twist at a time shoot it a little to let the string settle and check again. Stop when you get to 80%. You'll thank me later.
Dave Nowlin[/QUOTE]

Dave etal:

I checked the Old Glory last night and since I went from the E-4 cams to the E-2 cams the bow now produces 67# at the same limb bolt setting. The let off according to my scales is 20#. Math:

x.y
___ = %letoff 
y 

y-(x.y)=letoff poundage (what you should read on a scale)

where x=desired let off as a percent (e.g .80) 
where y= is the measured poundage of bow

.80 x 67=53.6#
53.6#/67=80% letoff
67-53.6=13.4# actual letoff poundage at full draw.
Using a Windstalker
Using a Trophy Ridge Guide series fall away rest with down cable activation

If I interpret these posts properly then I would 
a) draw bow and have someone check the position of the string posts as described in earlier posts.
b)Press the bow
b)remove the top cam cable 
c)rotate it in the tightening direction (depends on how the string was made) two turns or one turn **at a time if caution is your team mate
d)reinstall the cable and put on scale to see how close to 13.4# I get.

** I am assuming a turn is equal to a 360 degree rotation of the cable loop vs a 180 degree rottion which would be 1/2 turn.

If this sounds like a correct procedure that should allow me to achieve (actually sneak up on ) 80% letoff then let me know. I am not hard over on the 80% letoff as much as I am on getting the maxium valley possible on this bow. Right now the valley is way to shallow and it seems the slighest creep results in a jerk to maintain the existing wall or letoff.


----------



## Ewolf

mhammer I cannot tell you how much material I removed. It was take a little and test... However I can tell you that the further you go, the faster the letoff increases. So once I got to 75% I did 2 file pushes at a time. Once the monsoon is gone I will be able to test this extensively. However, I'm 100% sure that it is going to work with no problem. As for why bowtech doesn't do it? The mighty dollar my man. that would take a different cam, and more money to produce. Or maybe simply they didn't have time to fix it for this year. I have talked to some of the head guys at bowtech, and they said that this is not recommended but that it would work. I think it is the way that it should have been designed. The limbs are just too different for the same cam to work on them all.


----------



## mhammer

I'm getting the feeling that we should start a new thread since this one no longer has anything to do with safety. Well it sort of still does...

Got my bow back from Bowtech today. No real changes. Just a new set of cables and strings with a few degrees of pre-rotation in the top cam to get it close to 80% It's about 77-78% The valley is EXTREMELY small as well. It want's to pull your arm off. I'm not happy.

Interesting thing... If you purchased a Bowtech bow, it came with a 2005 owners manual... I have to give credit to my wife as I did not notice this myself at first. Look at the photographs of all the binary cam bows, they all have a very different design than what shipped (or at least what I received). *They all have an infinitely adjustable draw stop groove AND a second draw stop installed in the bottom cam*.

I know! I'm thinking, this has to be the way the engineers originally concieved this design. It makes more sense! A second draw stop will prevent over-rotation, allow perfect cam timing, provide a hard-wall, and most importantly GET YOU TO 80% LO w/o playing with the cables!!

Ok, How does this tie in with safety? I'm sure you've already figured it out. The draw stops are designed to be "end-user" adjustable. Any end-user could move both draw stops too far out and get lockup. A legal liability? Since the cables are set from the factory AND it says in my manual (several times over) NEVER adjust the string length or cables, you basically take it upon yourself to make this adjustment AGAINST Bowtechs recommendations. In court, if you were to admit this, you and only you would be responsible for damage, injury, or destruction.

In my opinion, the design that they turned to in light of the possible legal difficulties is inferior to the original.

I'm going out on a limb here (no pun intended)- I'll bet that in 2006 they will introduce a very sophisticated draw stop limited by the angle of the limb... maybe even top AND bottom.

I don't know. I'm going to call Bowtech tomorrow and see where I can get with this...I'll probably end up either selling the bow or elongating the draw stop hole myself as you suggested ewolf. It just seems wrong.


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## Dave Nowlin

Then again, you said they added a few degrees of pre-rotation. You also stated that you have 77 to 78% letoff. Have you considered adding 1/2 a twist to the cable to the top cam. That should leave you at 80 to 81% letoff. I wouldn't go any further. But if it indeed yields the magic 80% and it will, what will your complaint be then? You want 80%, I have told you how to get it.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## walks with a gi

mhammer said:


> I'm getting the feeling that we should start a new thread since this one no longer has anything to do with safety. Well it sort of still does...
> 
> Got my bow back from Bowtech today. No real changes. Just a new set of cables and strings with a few degrees of pre-rotation in the top cam to get it close to 80% It's about 77-78% The valley is EXTREMELY small as well. It want's to pull your arm off. I'm not happy.
> 
> Interesting thing... If you purchased a Bowtech bow, it came with a 2005 owners manual... I have to give credit to my wife as I did not notice this myself at first. Look at the photographs of all the binary cam bows, they all have a very different design than what shipped (or at least what I received). *They all have an infinitely adjustable draw stop groove AND a second draw stop installed in the bottom cam*.
> 
> I know! I'm thinking, this has to be the way the engineers originally concieved this design. It makes more sense! A second draw stop will prevent over-rotation, allow perfect cam timing, provide a hard-wall, and most importantly GET YOU TO 80% LO w/o playing with the cables!!
> 
> Ok, How does this tie in with safety? I'm sure you've already figured it out. The draw stops are designed to be "end-user" adjustable. Any end-user could move both draw stops too far out and get lockup. A legal liability? Since the cables are set from the factory AND it says in my manual (several times over) NEVER adjust the string length or cables, you basically take it upon yourself to make this adjustment AGAINST Bowtechs recommendations. In court, if you were to admit this, you and only you would be responsible for damage, injury, or destruction.
> 
> In my opinion, the design that they turned to in light of the possible legal difficulties is inferior to the original.
> 
> I'm going out on a limb here (no pun intended)- I'll bet that in 2006 they will introduce a very sophisticated draw stop limited by the angle of the limb... maybe even top AND bottom.
> 
> I don't know. I'm going to call Bowtech tomorrow and see where I can get with this...I'll probably end up either selling the bow or elongating the draw stop hole myself as you suggested ewolf. It just seems wrong.


 If you elongate the draw stop slot, you will not have much more valley or draw length, just more let off. You will still have to pull into and shoot off the stop. The way the cams are designed makes for an extreme fall off of the peak draw weight near the end of the draw cycle. This might sound to some like it's a bad thing but if you try these bows,, you'll realize where they get their speed and are still user friendly. I could tell you what I've done with mine but then I'd get a ton of e-mails that I don't have time to answer.

Simply time the cams to look identical at brace and then add a twist or two to get 80% let off if you want it and it isn't there already.


----------



## mhammer

I want to start by saying- I think you guys ARE helping people tune these bows, and keep them safe. 

However, with all do respect, I don't think you understand the difference between the Allegiance and the Constitution. The Constitution has a much more 'traditional' angle to it, requiring the top cam to rotate further than it is allowed to do presently. It doesn't require one or two twists... It was several twists. 

I just received this bow back from Bowtech. I can post pics if you like. It comes from the factory with the top cam much further forward than the bottom... as I stated earlier, the top cam is still in the power stroke regardless of what you twist. It is physically stopped from getting to where it needs to be by the draw stop.
It is the bottom cam providing almost all the letoff.

It is my opinion and belief that a bow with top and bottom cams in different positions will not shoot as well as one that has them remaining in perfect synchronization thoughout the entire draw cycle.

I am not disputing that many people may get this bow to shoot well for them using the work-around techniques described... I just believe that the bow will shoot better if the cams are synchronized.


----------



## Harley Rider

When I saw the title Binary Can Owners I though it was for the originators of the binary cam, Oneida.


----------



## walks with a gi

mhammer said:


> I want to start by saying- I think you guys ARE helping people tune these bows, and keep them safe.
> 
> However, with all do respect, I don't think you understand the difference between the Allegiance and the Constitution. The Constitution has a much more 'traditional' angle to it, requiring the top cam to rotate further than it is allowed to do presently. It doesn't require one or two twists... It was several twists.
> 
> I just received this bow back from Bowtech. I can post pics if you like. It comes from the factory with the top cam much further forward than the bottom... as I stated earlier, the top cam is still in the power stroke regardless of what you twist. It is physically stopped from getting to where it needs to be by the draw stop.
> It is the bottom cam providing almost all the letoff.
> 
> It is my opinion and belief that a bow with top and bottom cams in different positions will not shoot as well as one that has them remaining in perfect synchronization thoughout the entire draw cycle.
> 
> I am not disputing that many people may get this bow to shoot well for them using the work-around techniques described... I just believe that the bow will shoot better if the cams are synchronized.


 The next time I get a chance to look at a Constitution I'll make note of the cam rotation and sync at brace (I've only seen one). My wife's Defender has less parallel limb geometry than my Allegiance and the cams are static timed perfectly. I can actually see a bit of daylight under the bow string post, through the string loops and above the limb surfaces. If I had a very small needle, I could run it through the string loops above the limb surfaces and not touch the string posts.
I do have a question for you, are you sure your limbs match? Have you checked the tiller on the top and bottom limbs with the cams sync'd at brace? Something seems definately wrong with your bow..


----------



## Top Cat

I put my Constitution back to spec and then put 2 twists in the cable going to the top cam. I don't have much of a valley and about 70% letoff.
This being said the bow hits right where I aim if I do my part BUT, my arrow flight is lousy at best.


----------



## harleyryder

not being a smart alec but I really feel that maybe Bowtech needs to hire somebody with a lot of experianace and knowledge to help them out. I tried real hard to like their bows for personal reasons but decided I rather spend my time out shooting rather then tinkering round with the bow, I wish them well But I'm going out to shoot my switchback.


----------



## walks with a gi

Since I've had my Alklegiance and the wife's Defender,, I've spent maybe 5 minutes on each "tinkering" with the string or cables. The wife's was for installing her peep sight and mine was to super tune the static balance of the cams.

Go shoot you're Switchback


----------



## Techy

Dave,

Thanks for the info.

Would the MZE have the same effect?


Obviously not tied to down cable.


----------



## Dave Nowlin

I can't tell you about the Zero Effect. I don't have one, don't want one & haven't shot one.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## Ewolf

I have seen what many other have seen with the EBC on the constitution. It took 7 twist in the top cable to get 80 % let off. I really think they need to be in TIME (yes it is TIME, not optimal position). It is hard to shoot these bows at 65%, so I really suggest moving the position of the draw stop. This is the best way to fix the problem IMO. I have measured my modification, I had to move the draw stop about 1/4" to get to roughly 80% let off. I used a .325 size round file, it fits almost perfect. Then simply grind the nut so that the draw stop can advance. If you do this please do it slowly.


----------



## harleyryder

Thinking that me,walks with a gi, and his wife are the only ones out enjoying our bows !(maybe we got something figured out )


----------



## PA.JAY

I love my OG without a doubt the most accurate bow I ever shot! 
I tried playing with the cables got the 80% letoff SHOT LIKE CRAP! 
I'm puttin it back the way bowtech wants it. going to Home depo to look for a small round nut for the draw stop.


----------



## Techy

Dave Nowlin said:


> don't want one
> Dave Nowlin



Sad  you're missing out. :tongue: :wink: :shade: 

I am very close to 80% right now without varying from factory settings. I was just curious.

Thanks for the info again, as I install a lot of rests on BT bows.


----------



## MOBUCK

*Whooa*

I've been following this thread for several days now and I've got some concerns with the Binary Cam System. I really like Bowtech's(don't have one) but I'm worried with a system that if you twist the string's up only 3 turns :mg: you might have 100% let off!!!!!!! Seems a little Ticky to me. Not knocking the system, but I just want to shoot and not have to run to Crackers to make sure its right  maybe I will wait and see if BT comes out with a Module Binary Cam system. Maybe I'm just confused here. Please convince me on this System :secret:


----------



## PA.JAY

> but I'm worried with a system that if you twist the string's up only 3 turns you might have 100% let off!!!!!!! Seems a little Ticky to me.


THATS not true I COULD'NT LOCK MINE UP ! I twisted got the cams out of balance made my cables long over 80% letoff ! As long as the draw stop is in I could'nt make it lock up.
I put it back in time it shoots awsome ! The only bow that i replaced the string & cable and did'nt even have to adjust my sights! every thing was as it was before i changed them! this is without a doubt the best bow I ever shot!


----------



## pdq 5oh

Dave Nowlin said:


> Then again, you said they added a few degrees of pre-rotation. You also stated that you have 77 to 78% letoff. Have you considered adding 1/2 a twist to the cable to the top cam. That should leave you at 80 to 81% letoff. I wouldn't go any further. But if it indeed yields the magic 80% and it will, what will your complaint be then? You want 80%, I have told you how to get it.
> Dave Nowlin


That's getting a little anal. 2 or 3%? You'd never feel the difference. I'm with gimp. Set them up, they shoot fine.  SHOOT THEM.


----------



## Champion Shootr

pdq 5oh said:


> That's getting a little anal. 2 or 3%? You'd never feel the difference. I'm with gimp. Set them up, they shoot fine.  SHOOT THEM.



Thank you, I've been trying to avoid posting on this thread, but its nice to finally hear some common sense. These bows flat out shoot and if you are avoiding trying one because of what you've read hear you are short changing yourself.


----------



## ArchersParadox

*The TRUTH.....*


http://www.bowtecharchery.com/whats_new/BinarySys.htm


....


----------



## walks with a gi

*Instructions for BowTech bow set up*

1- remove bow from box.
2- install sight arrow rest nock set or loop
3- install peep, No Peep and or kisser button
4- install stabilizer (optional)
5- nock arrow on string
6- draw bow fully
7- take careful aim
8- squeeze shot off
9- repeat steps 5 through 6
10- recieve praise from all your shooting buddies
11- leave settings on bow alone


As in the wise words of a very well known gunsmith and trap shooter;

JUST SHOOT THE DAMN THING LIKE IT IS!!! :wink:


----------



## MOBUCK

*Thanks Gimp*



walks with a gi said:


> 1- remove bow from box.
> 2- install sight arrow rest nock set or loop
> 3- install peep, No Peep and or kisser button
> 4- install stabilizer (optional)
> 5- nock arrow on string
> 6- draw bow fully
> 7- take careful aim
> 8- squeeze shot off
> 9- repeat steps 5 through 6
> 10- recieve praise from all your shooting buddies
> 11- leave settings on bow alone
> 
> 
> As in the wise words of a very well known gunsmith and trap shooter;
> 
> JUST SHOOT THE DAMN THING LIKE IT IS!!! :wink:



You have convinced me now   :beer:


----------



## Jerry/NJ

walks with a gi said:


> 1- remove bow from box.
> 2- install sight arrow rest nock set or loop
> 3- install peep, No Peep and or kisser button
> 4- install stabilizer (optional)
> 5- nock arrow on string
> 6- draw bow fully
> 7- take careful aim
> 8- squeeze shot off
> 9- repeat steps 5 through 6
> 10- recieve praise from all your shooting buddies
> 11- leave settings on bow alone
> 
> As in the wise words of a very well known gunsmith and trap shooter;
> 
> JUST SHOOT THE DAMN THING LIKE IT IS!!! :wink:


I wish it was that easy! Dam shame we cant do that ALL the time.......When I got my Allegiance, it was so far out of tune and I saw it brought out of the box so the dealer never messed with it. It came from the factory out of synch., no valley, and 68% let off, shot lousy! Being a new system (this was in early Jan. as I used it on my hunt in Texas in Feb.) I was learning alot about the new binary as we all were. After twisting cables I finally got it right and it shot sweet!


----------



## Dave Nowlin

As I said when I begun this thread, I don't want to slam BowTech. I do know however that many of these bows were shipped that were far from optimally tuned. I also know that folks will try to fix the problem when they know their bow isn't exactly right. I also know some dealers are absolutely excellent and give great service. I also know some aren't and don't. Every bow manufacturer has some bad dealers who don't represent them well. Sadly folks who deal with the bad dealers or dealers who simply don't know have to try and fix these problems on their own, often with inadequate instruction. This thread was intended to help those gain direction and prevent them form doing harm to their equipment and/or themselves. I believe it has accomplished that purpose. I have gotten many E-mails and PMs regarding these bows and I have tried to answer them all to the best of my ability. Possibly some are still dissatisfied, but I know I have been able to help many and for that I am grateful.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## grouse

Thanks Dave for all your help.

One thing that i ws thinking about the other day. I hear guys from lots of manufacturers say that bows arrive out of spec. I wonder if this has anything to do with bows being transported for several days in hot weather. everyone knows that its abad idea to leave your bow in the trunk of your car, but thats essentially what shipping contractors do.


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## Dave Nowlin

Good point!!! :thumbs_up 
Dave Nowlin


----------



## TradTech

Geesh - and I was seriously thinking of buying an old glory with the binary system. Sounds like a nightmare.

Here's a question I haven't seen yet: Is it necessary to shoot a drop away rest with the binary system?


----------



## Bellows1

TradTech said:


> Geesh - and I was seriously thinking of buying an old glory with the binary system. Sounds like a nightmare.
> 
> Here's a question I haven't seen yet: Is it necessary to shoot a drop away rest with the binary system?



TradTech, the "warning" should probably have been an FYI. As long as the cam stop peg is in place there are no problems. 

And no you don't need a drop away rest.  The Binary cams system works great.


----------



## WR

*Draw length??????????*

If the binary cam is tuned in the 80% postion, will the draw length change (shorter) when moving the peg forward to the 65% postion?????? 

Good information Dave.........Thank you for your time & help.........WR


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## Dave Nowlin

Yes sir, it will just a little, as you stop the draw stroke just a little shorter than on the 80% setting.
Dave Nowlin


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## VorTexan

harleyryder said:


> Thinking that me,walks with a gi, and his wife are the only ones out enjoying our bows !(maybe we got something figured out )



C'mon Dave, the same arguement could be made with your choice of ride. 

Tinker with a Harley go out and enjoy brand X.....any brand X.

Note* Not knocking anybody's choice just something that we all notice.


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## Dave Nowlin

Durocab, that beats anything I ever saw. At the bottom of your post it says"Durocab Staff Shooter". When I bought my Durocab it didn't come with a "Staff" to shoot. Did I get ripped off?
Dave Nowlin


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## WR

*Binary Cams.*

I did a little testing today between fletching.

Declaration II....E-5 cams........50-60 lbs.......41 1/8" ATA......7 5/8" Brace (center of string) 59 lbs.

GT 22 series.......320 grain
CX 200's............310 grain

Cam settings........I haven't touched the timing on these cams.

Bottom Cam


----------



## WR

Top Cam


----------



## PA.JAY

whats the letoff on that bow ? any valley ?

after reading all the threads I took my time started over and now I got a small valley & my letoff went to 75 from 61 pounds still got a little more playing to do! but it's comming in nice.


----------



## WR

MoBUCK says my scales are 2 pounds lighter than Crackers digital scales......Shouldn't matter, all test were done on my scales.

Keep in mind I done these measurements by myself with out the aid of a crank board.......Close at best.

Draw peg set all the way back 80%

True draw ........29 1/4"
AMO................31.0"
59 lbs........holding 12 lbs======79.66% let off
CX 200.....310 grain======300 fps
GT 22.......320 grain======297 fps


Draw peg all the way forward 65% 
true draw..........28"
AMO.................29 3/4"
59 lbs holding 30 lbs=======49% let off
CX 200.....310 grain=======297 fps
GT 22.......320 grain=======291 fps

Draw peg centered on third line from the back 80% line.
True Draw.........28 3/4"
AMO................30.5"
59 lbs. holding 20 lbs.======= 66.10% Let Off
CX 200......310 grain========300 fps
GT22........320 grain========294 fps

The draw seems to change quite a bit from back to front setting, the valley is gone at the front.......the bow seems quiet in all postion's and shock free, speed really doesn't seem to change all that much.

I hope my math figures out alright?
Would there be any way to get these cams at 65% or a little less and still keep the valley and speed at 30" draw???????

This bow is a shooter, has it all, great balance, no vibs or hand shock, smooth cams......it's got enough of my attention to ask question's about it, BowTech is not what I keep hanging around the house all the time.

The good news is........I'm only an hour & half from Mike (Cracker's) the bad news is..........How do I get him to stop working on y'alls bows long enough to get me going??  

Ohhhhhhhhh Cracker's..............lightly Chilled :mg:


----------



## PA.JAY

after reading your thread i went down stairs to try to get the 80 let off . I got 80 took one twist out of the bottom cam . 
BUT I took off my TT rope because it got turned & I pulled it back without the rope & WOW the rope is the problem! it was robbing me of letoff it was stopping the cam of rolling over! I checked the letoff without the rope 85% :embarasse with the rope 80% ! is 6 inch rope the only answer ? 
DAVE ??


----------



## Bellows1

WR, where did ya get that pretty thing? 



> Would there be any way to get these cams at 65% or a little less and still keep the valley and speed at 30" draw???????


Maybe a 1/2" longer cam at 70% would work out for ya. Just a thought.  Since the stop post sets the let-off and valley, I'm not sure if you can.  
Bill


----------



## harleyryder

Laffing with ya durocab, trouble with Harleys and mine is 23 years old is that most people when they buy one thinks that they're all of a sudden HD mechanics and tinker with the dang things til they don't work right  .Good thing us bow hunters aren't that way(3 weeks to go til opening day !)


----------



## Dave Nowlin

WR, if you go to BowTechs web page you can see a video of the Binary sytem complete with how it works at both 65% & 80%. You will see in the representation that there is no way to get the valley you desire without the 80% letoff. Regarding the fallaway, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have talked with the TT folks and their findings have been the same as mine. Bring the rest full up at the last half inch of the draw cycle and tie the cord in 6 inches below the rest to minimize the effect on the down cable. When excessive pressure is put on the down cable you will decrease your letoff and induce vertical nock travel issues.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## WR

Dave Nowlin said:


> WR, if you go to BowTechs web page you can see a video of the Binary sytem complete with how it works at both 65% & 80%. You will see in the representation that there is no way to get the valley you desire without the 80% letoff.
> Dave Nowlin


Thanks Dave, I have been to the BowTech site and couldn't see anyway to do it either.
I traded another bow for the Declaration, as soon as I know everyone is happy with the trade I'll get the cams changed to my draw length and give it a good trying out.
Thanks for all the information Dave, it's been great learning about the binary cam system, I'm sure it's helped several people understand their bows better..........been lots of lookers for sure.......WR


----------



## PA.JAY

Thanks Dave !


----------



## ZA206

*Maybe..... but probably not...*

One MIGHT be able to get a valley at 65% let-off with this system, but they'd have do something crazy to get it. Like mixing cams, E3 top and an E2 bottom for example. This is not something that I'd want to try but if Crackers had some free time to tinker (yea right)... he could investigate.

The major downside to this arrangement is that it probably would effect nock travel, cam timing and other issues.... you might be able to get 65% with a valley, but you'd be locked into that set-up. Probably wouldn't be worth it.... but it'd be interesting to see.

-ZA206



Dave Nowlin said:


> WR, if you go to BowTechs web page you can see a video of the Binary sytem complete with how it works at both 65% & 80%. You will see in the representation that there is no way to get the valley you desire without the 80% letoff. Regarding the fallaway, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have talked with the TT folks and their findings have been the same as mine. Bring the rest full up at the last half inch of the draw cycle and tie the cord in 6 inches below the rest to minimize the effect on the down cable. When excessive pressure is put on the down cable you will decrease your letoff and induce vertical nock travel issues.
> Dave Nowlin


----------



## Dave Nowlin

I think the real problem in trying to achieve a valley at 65% is the fact that this was really designed as a 80% letoff cam and it is simply stopped short of any real valley in order to achieve 65%. I believe a new cam would have to be designed to trully have both 65% letoff and a valley.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## Dave Nowlin

It's funny that folks are starting new posts that are covered somewhere in this post. So even though this has slipped back to page 2 the issues are still coming up.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## CHIMO

*Does A Left Hand Bow Have This Problem ?*



CHIMO said:


> I looked at my bow (left hand Allegiance , Trophy taker drop away) and I can't see what you are talking about. My bow has the draw stop peg on the bottom cam. The drop away cable is attached to the cable which pulls to ward the bottom cam. I draw the bow back to the draw stop nothing timing wise changes unless I pull on the upper cable. Maybe the problem is having the draw stop on the top cam and the drop away cable pulling from the bottom cable.
> 
> 
> 
> Chimo.


 HOPING SOMEONE CAN ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

CHIMO.


----------



## Dave Nowlin

Chimo, This is a question you can answer yourself. Check your letoff and if it is at 80% you don't have a problem. If it is less than 80% you do.
After all if you read back through this thread, it is all about establishing prpoer letoff on these bows. It's not about anything magic or any kind of slight of hand. It simply attempts to help folks get these bows set up right without going overboard and locking up their bow.
Dave Nowlin


----------



## karday

*Well it worked the binaries are in sync*

Dave and others:

Dave after we spoke the other night I continued for my quest for cams that exist in some parallell universe. I got a response from Bowtech that tracked with your inputs but probably got another kackazillion dealer comments that were 180 degrees out. 

I was waiting for the new bow press I bought from TOAD 400 on AT to make any changes since my existing one didn't fit the Old Glory well. However, I couldn't stand it any longer so I pressed it and made equal turns on both the upper and lower cable. 4 full 360 degree turns in all on each end. Bam got the ~15# letoff I was looking for with the limbs maxed out on a 70 # bow. I started with the string posts equadistant from the limb. I saw some but minor increase in poundage but the let off went from 20 to 15 # and the valley is much better than before. I checked the paper tune and made a minor rest adjustment to get a 3/4 to 1" right tear out. I chronographed with my 352 gr Carbon Tech Cheetah arrows and got a solid 307 fps. All is well in the universe and the parallell one the Old Glory was in has been abolished and the stars are now in alignment. (damm 60's) I might note for alcon that I do have a Windstalker installed and also an STS on this bow. :smile: :shade:


----------



## Champion Shootr

Seeing the windstalker affects both cables that sounds like what I got from bowtech. 4 full turns in both cables got you about 7% more letoff than you had before. How do you like your windstalker cable guide anyway?


----------



## rmw

I have been considering getting a Bowtec and have liked the MZE .Does anyone know how they work with the new cams ?


----------



## karday

*windstalker on Bowtech*

To be perfectly honest I do not notice much difference between the WInstalker cble guide and the OEM one. I started with two turns in each cable end and worked to four doing one at a time until I got to ~15#. The STS makes much more noticable difference but it is a noise perceived improvement. If it has really tightened my groups I can't be 100% sure since I still am like everyone else in that I make small human errors. I am shooting the new 2XJ Turbine Tops and frankly do not see much difference over regular target tips. If they do make a difference in accuracy it is so slight that it does not overcome human flaws. Now I was able to shoot the Bowtech this morning and I was like a kid in a candy shop. With the let closer to 80% and the valley much "bigger" it was surely a sweet shooting bow and very accurate and very fast.


----------



## CHIMO

*Does Someone Have The Answer?*



CHIMO said:


> I looked at my bow (left hand Allegiance , Trophy taker drop away) and I can't see what you are talking about. My bow has the draw stop peg on the bottom cam. The drop away cable is attached to the cable which pulls to ward the bottom cam. I draw the bow back to the draw stop nothing timing wise changes unless I pull on the upper cable. Maybe the problem is having the draw stop on the top cam and the drop away cable pulling from the bottom cable.
> 
> 
> 
> Chimo.


HOPE SOMEONE KNOWS ! I LIKE THE BOW.

CHIMO.


----------



## ex-wolverine

*Get a whisker bisquit...*



PA.JAY said:


> after reading your thread i went down stairs to try to get the 80 let off . I got 80 took one twist out of the bottom cam .
> BUT I took off my TT rope because it got turned & I pulled it back without the rope & WOW the rope is the problem! it was robbing me of letoff it was stopping the cam of rolling over! I checked the letoff without the rope 85% :embarasse with the rope 80% ! is 6 inch rope the only answer ?
> DAVE ??


No strings attached


----------



## PA.JAY

just put a TT lizard tounge on yesterday best thing i ever did !


----------



## Dave Nowlin

Ex-Wolverine, if you took the fallaway off and now have 85% letoff, I would remove 1 twist form the top cam. You really don't want more than 80% letoff. Have you noticed how many folks have replied on this thread telling me a fallaway doesn't affect your timing? But then there are some grown folks who still seem to believe in the tooth fairy! :argue: 
Dave Nowlin


----------



## Champion Shootr

:deadhorse


----------



## gwmican

If all of this is too much to take in, send it to Crackers and then you won't have to worry again untill you wear out your strings and cables. Then, send it to Crackers again! :shade:


----------



## bigdogmastiff

*I went home and used your advice Dave*

I retimed my TT 6" below the rest and to come up @ 1/2" before full draw

Checked my letoff and it was 74% added 4 turns 1 at a time to the top cam
and got the desired 80% letoff

when I paper tuned I cannot get rid of a 1/4" low tear - is this a big problem?

The first group i shot with it was really good and the arrows appeared to fly well

Should I just forget the paper tuning and group tune?

Thanks,
Eric


----------



## karday

Paper tuning is a great start but not and end all solution. Many archers prefer a slightly high or even a little left tear which helps clear the fletch. I have had paper tuned bullet holers I had to readjust to get good arrow flight. If you read most tuning guides they will tell you getting a bullet hole is often not atainable for many. 3/4" is considered satisfactory. If the arrow is clearing and grouping well then you are golden. Usually low tears are not as acceptable as high tears since it could still cause contact with something. SO if you have to have some error a high tear (3/4" or so is better). The beauty of the micro elevation adjustments on the higher end rest is you can set your nock to spec. Say 1/4" above level and than make the remainder of any nock high/low adjustments with he elevation setting on the rest. E.g. if the nock is tearing too high then you can lower the nock or raise the rest. I usually set the windage by taping a piect of string to the center of the limb bolts and then, using a short scrap piecy of arrow like I am shooting, align it using the windage adjustment to center the arrow onthe string. Then set the nock height, tie the loop, and start paper tuning. In rare occasions do I need to redoo the loop because the adjustment is within the capability of the rest. Some fellows tie their D-loop below their nock point to facilitate adjustment later but I haven't had to do that and besides I want my D-loops tight on the string after the peep is settled. Even had a D-loop come un done during a draw? Talk about surprise release!


----------



## thndrr

I've read this entire thread and I have to say, "very interesting". Dave, what I get from this, is
1. A cord type drop-away effectively shortens the down cable (although only 
very minutely) (they do on all bows)
2.You should therefore shorten the top cable (very minutely) to keep 80% 
let-off and keep everything timed properly......
3. The only reason these are so "touchy", for lack of a better term, is 
because they aren't connected to a limb, only each other

If I'm thinking correctly, aint all that complicated, just have to be thinking
a bit on the mechanical side. Am I correct? Thanks, Jim


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## karday

Dave N, is on target on this and I verified the methodology to get back to 80% with Bowtech. Now Bowtech never commented onthe original cause of the issue being the Drop Away cord from such a rest but that is also what I had on mine. For ever twist I added to one cam I removed the same from the other. I never would have minded the loss of let off, but I certainly didn't like the valley about the thickness of freeze dried butterfly nostril. All is well now and the bow shoots very well. Hope I get a chance to introduce a few does or a buck with a hernia from carrying around a rack that would put a Las Vegas show girl to shame, to the business end of an unusually sharp broadhead.


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## Stimey

*Aint got a clue*

Gentlemen I am so new at this I still got milk on my lips. I been a machine mechanic for 30 years worked on everything, and have absolutly enjoyed this thread. I dont have the bucks to own such fine Bows as the botech line, or any of the other upper end bows. Now that I have appoligized for being a tight butt with my money, my question is, I have a reflex with the cam and a half set up. Is this considered a binary cam, and can the fall away rest have the same affect on the length of the valley if not set up correctly? I will say again I admire everyone of you and your patients with each other, this is a great sport dont stop what you are doing, keep on teachen us youngsters. Thanks


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## qkdraw

O.K. I have read enough. This problem seems to be a real problem...maybe...someday...without warning. I have been looking hard at the bianary cams for my next bow. I have shot and like best this style so far. This thread however had led to some concern about lock up. I have never heard of this problem on other bows before. It seem this is an issue that needs to be solved for the weekend hunter. Is the normal amount of string stretch enough or close to enough to cam lock up? I would imagine that if throughout a strings breakin and life it could stretch and cause this problem is going to be a real issue.


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## Marcus

I have added 10 twists to one of my cables and not had lock up. 
I have yet to see it happen. 
Don't worry about it


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## Champion Shootr

qkdraw said:


> O.K. I have read enough. This problem seems to be a real problem...maybe...someday...without warning. I have been looking hard at the bianary cams for my next bow. I have shot and like best this style so far. This thread however had led to some concern about lock up. I have never heard of this problem on other bows before. It seem this is an issue that needs to be solved for the weekend hunter. Is the normal amount of string stretch enough or close to enough to cam lock up? I would imagine that if throughout a strings breakin and life it could stretch and cause this problem is going to be a real issue.



If you go back and read the posts the only person to lock up his bow didn't time it right at all. It wasn't even close to being right seeing he used the lobe on the cam for timing instead of the string post. I've got 2000 shots through my old glory and neither cam has moved yet so I don't think string stretch is anything to worry about. Best shooting bows I've ever had. I haven't had a single problem with having to retune or time these bows and also can't seem to set up my dropaway to make the bow lose more than 2-3% letoff. I thought this thread had finally died, but obviously people still need to beat a dead horse.


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## qkdraw

I agree that there is only a limited problem. I will probably buy a bianary cam bow. I did get in late on the thread and agree with the dead horse comment due to the number of post supporting the bianary concept. I did however never hear the problem existed until the horse got ressurected while I was here a couple of days ago. I found the bow I shot to balence noticable better. It shot well and from the first shot I had very good repeatable accuracy. I do get that from the bow I shoot now, but the speed and comfort are not near as nice. AM MAY THE HORSE NOW DIE!...FOREVER!


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## Seth the XSlayr

> can the fall away rest have the same affect on the length of the valley if not set up correctly?


Yes...it's putting pressure on the down cable which will affect your letoff slightly...

I do not believe your cam system would be considered binary, it is a hybrid...with the binary cams your strings and/or cable don't connect to the limbs, it's cam to cam.....


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## bowhuntrrl

*Some info to add*

First, let me state a few things for the record the first being that I'm new to the Binary cam system. I recently purchased an '05 Allegiance that came equipped with a Trophy Taker rest. The bow has 70 lb limbs but is currently set at 61 lbs. I've read this thread and the others that are associated with it. On one of those, I've asked some questions that Dave apparently will not respond to. Let me say that I'm asking these questions to learn, not to contradict.

Anyways, today I took the Allegiance to my local shop(not a Bowtech dealer) to sight it in. Second shot with it gave me a Robin Hood, so I guess the bow shoots well. The shop owner was watching and he thought it looked fast, so he moved his exotic $1200 Easton draw force curve/chrono with IR conversion up to the shooting lane. Bow is at 61 lbs (backed down from 70) and 28.5" draw. The arrow weight was 338 grains using 3 fletch straight with Blazer vanes. Three shots yielded 294 fps average. So far we've established that it's both fast and accurate.

I wanted to remove the TT rest but after reading this thread I was afraid to for fear of locking up the bow. Since we had this Easton tool, we decided to do some testing. First thing I did was take 3 pulls with the Easton hand device and measured peak force and letoff poundage.With the Trophy Taker on, average of 3 pulls was 61.8 peak weight and 16.5 holding weight. This calculates out to 73.4 % letoff. This was with the TT served to the down cable. Next I disconnected the pull cable from the TT rest and took another 3 pulls. The average was 61.2 lbs peak draw weight and holding weight was 12.2 lbs, which calculates out to 80.1 % letoff. So my take on all this is that Dave Nowlin is kinda right, but not totally. Obviously the TT served into the down cable *does* rob you of *SOME *letoff, but not the 15% as he states. Next he states that if I remove the TT without removing twists, my bow may lock up. Certainly not in this case since the bow was only at 73.4 %. The net change in letoff with/without the TT was 6.7%. I suppose it would be possible if the bow ended up at 86.7 %, but I would have to see it to believe it. I still can't see how that could happen with the draw stop in place, which physically inhibits over rotaton of the cam, which I believe is the issue to cause lockup. I would appreciate it if someone could clarify this point. We did this work only about 2 feet from a Sureloc X-Press, just in case it did lock up.

So from reading other posts in this and other threads, it seems that tieing a fall away to the down cable of an Allegiance ('05) costs an average of 5-6% decrease in letoff (fact), and *NOT 15 %* (fiction) as I believe has been stated.

Of course I realise that this is only one case, but others seem to verify the 5-6% decrease in letoff. I have been literally afraid to shoot this bow since buying it and reading about exploding limbs, limb pivot and pocket upgrades, and this thread about possible cam lockups. You know what, after today, I'm just gonna shoot the damn thing and not worry about it !! Viva La Bowtech !

:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## Bellows1

bowhuntrrl said:


> So from reading other posts in this and other threads, it seems that tieing a fall away to the down cable of an Allegiance ('05) costs an average of 5-6% decrease in letoff (fact), and *NOT 15 %* (fiction) as I believe has been stated.
> 
> :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


I think it may depend on how much tension you put on the down cable. I think Dave mentioned that if the rest was tied in to high on the down cable it puts extra tension on the cable. That would require more twists to even out to get the 80%. If you take the rest off then, there may be a risk of over rotation, there is no stop on the bottom cam. 
I could be wrong, but that is how I read it. I agree with you, Just shoot it. It is a pleasure. :thumbs_up


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## YBSLO

Bellows1 said:


> I think it may depend on how much tension you put on the down cable. I think Dave mentioned that if the rest was tied in to high on the down cable it puts extra tension on the cable. That would require more twists to even out to get the 80%. If you take the rest off then, there may be a risk of over rotation, there is no stop on the bottom cam.
> I could be wrong, but that is how I read it.


I agree it's how much tension you apply to the down cable. When checking poundage & let off I use a digital scale. I think Cave Nowlin is right on the money. I know I had to add the 2 twist to mine as Dave predicted.
I think you are only fooling yourself, if ignoring the lock up issue. Just my opinion. Good Luck!! :thumbs_up


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## Jhorne

Could someone please post pictures of the cam positions on their '05 Constitution and tell what is used for a reference point on the cams. Thanx


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## ZA206

*Been there, done that....*

Having been one of the only people in America to have locked up an Allegiance with the draw stop IN, I can attest that it can be done. 

The draw stop eliminates the lock-up if the bow is to SPECS! If it's not in spec., then it can be locked up with the draw stop in place. The let-off occours at a spot on the cam where the slightest change in cam rotation angle makes wild differences in letoff. Twisting the cables/strings to get the proper letoff (with and without drop away rests installed) basically "pre-rotates" the top cam.... if gone too far you'll pre-rotate the cam to the point of no return when you draw it. My local shop and I figured this out the hard way! 

Adding more twists to accomodate for drop aways is acceptable, as long as you know exactly what the ramifications of doing so are. I.E.... don't go twisting cables if you have no clue what you are doing! Also.... as Dave and Crackers have mentioned... take your time and only add 1 twist at a time to get to your optimal setup!

-ZA206


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## dillio67

I can tell you to reinforce Dave a little and yes it does affect other type cams such as nitrous or nitrous x.Tie a drop away cord in a down cable in a timed bow and you will have to re time the bow.


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## Shooters Edge

*Wow....you guys!*

Well, maybe I did not read every single post on this thread, but I think I have read enough to a least throw my two bits in. One, never tie a drop away rest in to any cable. If that is the only way your rest ties in, get a new rest. If your bow does not have a standard cable rod and you want to shoot a drop away rest, get a new bow! We sell only Bowtechs in our retail division, and after 10 years of making my living as a bow mechanic and in the manufacturing side of this industry I can say that these [Bowtechs] are by far the simplest bows to work on and tune. Any qualified mechanic will tell you the same. The only time real bow mechanics seem to have a problem is when using after market strings and not understanding basic "Industry Variances" in finished lengths. If you are paying attention to axle to axle specs. before you tear the bow down and after you put it together, and look at thimble to outside cable relationship, you will have no problems.
OK now....let me have it!


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## FBR_5

*Attaching Fall away rope to cable slide?*

Excellent thread - Lots of good information.

Has anyone tried to tie the fall away rope to the cable slide. I have noticed such products as the Sims Cable Slide that have a hole for the drop away rope. Does this work? Will this solve the problem of unequal pressure on the buss cables? Kind of new to this and just wanting to learn.

Here is a link to the Sims cable slide

http://www.limbsaver.com/limbsaver/archery/cableslide.aspx

Thanks


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## TailChaser

I just really dont think it has much to do with uneven pressures. It's just about shortening the cable up.

The difference between having a loop on or not is because you are pulling lower down on the string. Trying pulling it back very low or high and you have no letoff. If the cams are exactly the same, then you'd have to pull in the very center of the string to get 80 percent.

But you don't. You're really about 1" above the center with your nocking point. Thus the need to rotate one cam, so they come back just the same.


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## LeTuB

*E-Cam position at full draw*

I haves read this thread (and some other) dealing with allegiance cam timing, :thumbs_up all this informations are very interesting.I have tuned my allegiance in order to have the right ATA (the string have stretched , and I had to add something like 6 turns) I have tuned the cable to have the correct distance between the string post and the outter side of the limb(flush on the top cam and 1/16 on the bottom) as I use a Windstalker and an Ultrarest.
My concern is about the position of the cam at full draw, I notticed that le bottom cam is over-rotated vs top cam, could anybody indicate the relative position of each cam at full draw to obtain the 80% let-off and where is the point of no-return where the bow locks.


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## Dave Nowlin

When you reach 80% letoff the top cam will be rotating slightly behind the bottom cam. In other words the top cam is slightly ******ed. The top cam has a draw stop and therefore cannot be over rotated. The bottom cam has no such protection. If the bottom cam is set too far in front of the top cam you can rotate it past the point of no return while the top cam is shy of this point and the bow will lock up as one cam wants to rotate in one direction and the other wants to rotate in the opposite direction. I might be willing to set your bow up that way for a photo op, but not mine.:wink: 
Dave Nowlin


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## BowHunterBri

Dave Nowlin said:


> When someone adds a fallaway rest 2 more twists must be added to restore proper letoff
> Dave Nowlin



does this make true for every bow? or just this one in question i have a Q.A.D pro on my switchback and now im nervous about that it was put on at the shop should i ask him if he did that? thanks so much 
__________________


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## Bellows1

BowHunterBri said:


> does this make true for every bow? or just this one in question i have a Q.A.D pro on my switchback and now im nervous about that it was put on at the shop should i ask him if he did that? thanks so much
> __________________


Yours will be fine, It's just the Binary cam system. I don't think your top cam can over rotate.


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## bowtechog70

*binary cams and fall away rest*

thanks dave for the information I did not know this because the pro shop set it up for me. You said the fall away rest should be tied in 6 inches below rest is that at full draw or undrawn. Maybe this sounds stupid but Im just an archer not a pro shop owner.


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## Dave Nowlin

Undrawn. Some disagree with me on this, but your rest will fall faster when tied in this far down.
Dave Nowlin


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## Fischer

*Shooting my new 2006 Bowtech Allegiance*

First, let me say that I'm brand new to this excellent forum - this is my first post. This particular thread has been unbelievably informative and of particular interest, since I just bought the 2006 Allegiance. Special thanks to Dave Nowlin for sharing your expertise. 

I have to confess that after reading all of this and before actually shooting my new bow, I was a little concerned, especially since I planned on using a fall away rest. 

I shot a lot of bows before deciding on this one, including examples from all the big name manufacturers. I can't speak about the 2005 and earlier Bowtechs, but my bow shoots like a dream with almost no tuning or tinkering. It's a 70/29 with 317 fps on the birth certificate. I've owned and tuned a lot of bows in the last 28 years of shooting and this one was by far the easiest to get shooting. I put on the rest, tied it to the cable slide (there's a loop on the slide, apparently for this express purpose), set it to cock at the last 1/2" of draw. Put an arrow on it and centered it up, put on the sights and stabilizer from my old bow and shot it. 

First 4 arrows strung horizontally about 3" at 20 yards all at the same height. I moved the rest a bit and shot again. Arrows banging together now. Adjusted the sight and shot at 30 - very tight group. Shot at 40 - a slightly larger than golfball sized group with 2 arrows touching. Not bad for a bow basically right out of the box. I never even got to use my paper tuner, but I may in a few days. Not sure why though...

I've always looked forward to the tinkering and tuning ritual associated with getting a new bow to shoot, so I almost didn't know what to do with myself. So, I just enjoyed shooting the bow, which is remarkably smooth and fast. In fact, I can't get the 30 and 40 yd sight pins quite close enough together on my Tru Glo fiber optic sight. I think I'll have to grind them down a little. What do the rest of you guys do for sights on these fast bows?

There is one problem with the bow - the draw stop, when adjusted to it's maximum letoff position, doesn't come close to touching the limb. It's probably 3/16" away. This is exactly the same with or without the rest tied to the slide. Although I have seen a little bit of stretch after a day of shooting, the timing looks good, but I suspect that the letoff is a few percent under 80. I did weigh it at the shop and came up with something like 75%. I'll go back through this thread in a few days and see if I can get it up to 80%. 

Anyway, if you enjoy spending a lot of time tinkering with your bow to make it shoot properly, this is probably not the best choice for you. I think I can learn to live with it. I haven't owned as many bows as some of you guys - I guess I might have owned a dozen. Honestly though, this is the easiest and most fun bow to shoot and the most accurate hunting bow I've ever owned. I can't wait to get this thing out hunting. Deer season's over...maybe I can find a hog...or a spring gobbler...

I got a pretty cool hat with it too. But no owner's manual.

Thanks again for sharing the info!

Todd Fischer


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## Bellows1

Todd, welcome to AT, you'll find a ton of great threads like this one. 

My 05 allegiance shot the same as yours right outta the box. No problems at all with the drop away. Haven't checked the let-off, but it's good enough for me as is.

I'm sure they will get the manuals done soon, they always seem to be behind with them. 

Good shooting,
Bill


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## Fischer

*Thanks*

Thanks Bill. There is a wealth of information here. Yeah, this Bowtech is so easy to shoot and so quiet, it's almost surreal. And the speed...wow!

Todd


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## TributeHunter09

which cable is the one going to the top cam?


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## pdq 5oh

bowhuntingkid, the cable to the top cam (the one to twist on RH bows to increase let off) is attached to the outside track, not inside at the axle. With your TT rest do this. Put the lifting cord through the down cable about 2 1/2" below the rest. Leave it longer than necessary. Pull the bow to full draw. The cord will slip through the cable when the rest is fully lifted, and the bow is at full draw. Cut the excess leaving enough to fray and ball the end. Pull the cord back through some after cutting so you can burn the end without damaging the cable. Pull to full draw to be sure the cord is the right length. Serve five or so knots above the cord to keep it from slipping up. You'll be fine, and not need to worry about let off changing. Hope this made sense to you.


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## Tax Lawyer

ttt


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## juano2001

Champion Shootr said:


> Sorry, but I can't believe it to make that much of a difference. You have your opinion and the others have theirs. I would like to know about the people who attach their cord to the cable slide. Does this affect the bow the same way? If you'd like to pm me and explain exactly how 2 twists takes a bow from 65 to 80 percent letoff I'd like to hear it. I do believe you're right about not attaching it too short so it pulls on the cable, but I can't believe my bow will lock up if I put 4 twists into the cable leading to the top cam.



Nowllin is absolutley right and I just proved it. I bougth a used 05 that previoulsy had a windstalker and a dropaway. Totally forgot the windstalker was taken off and sold. Drew it back and locked up. Interesting thing is at 60# the bow didn't lock but had way too much let off. At 70# lockup. Guess how mant twists to get it back to normal...- 4 twists off the cable going to the top cam. Exactly as Nowlin predicted...take offf a windstalker and drop away = lockup on alleigiance. Wow, I was lucky, but people need to know about this when fooling with bianry cams.


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## pdq 5oh

Well, think about it. When the limbs were backed off 10#, what was the result? The cables were relaxed, as in untwisted. When the limbs were cranked down, the cables were put under more tension, as in twisted. Thus increasing let off. All this the result of someone setting it up, and someone changing it. Without proper knowledge. Not the fault of the bow. 
What did you expect when there was "too much let off" at 60#, when you cranked it to 70? Was let off ever measured? The information is out there to aid in setting the 05 BowTechs up properly.


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## juano2001

pdq 5oh said:


> What did you expect when there was "too much let off" at 60#, when you cranked it to 70? Was let off ever measured? The information is out there to aid in setting the 05 BowTechs up properly.



Well Ive certainly heard lots of foolishness from fanboys who can see no wrong in their chosen bow brand but this takes the cake. What did I expect? I most certainly did not expect to be holding a live grenande while I was running around my house looking for a bow press to diffuse it but that was how it sure felt. This was the result of a bow that *was* *properly set up * and then had its windstalker and and drop away removed and the strings not returned to the proper specs for no windstalker and no drop away. Was the let off ever measured? Ya it sure was...on the very second time I pulled it back I measured it ....IT WAS 100% LETOFF. As if anyone would think of that happening.


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## pdq 5oh

You completely miss the point. Not surprising. You should know the changes necessary for the previous set up. After removing Wind Stalker, you never considered the necessary changes NOW required. Add the variables; getting the picture? I'll grant you, some bows are above the technical skills of their owners.


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## grandpawrichard

Dave and Javi,
This is a fantastic topic and I sure have learned quite a bit from it, but I am still scratching my poor old bald head and wondering if a dropaway rest attached to ANY bow will change the letoff. I can see most of your point, but my thick skull isn't letting me totally understand and absorb it.:sad: 

Could you please post more of the Theory and cause/effect on the bows for me? If you would rather do it in an email, that would be perfectly alright with me!  It would be like me having a personal tutor!  I highly respect both of you Gentlemen and I always learn from the both of you! 
My email address is: [email protected]

Thanks for your time and awesom information! 

Dick


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## Champion Shootr

Not to mention how much the cables stretched after being locked up. 4 twists to get it back to normal means nothing without a point of reference to start from.


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## juano2001

pdq 5oh said:


> You completely miss the point. Not surprising. You should know the changes necessary for the previous set up. After removing Wind Stalker, you never considered the necessary changes NOW required. Add the variables; getting the picture? I'll grant you, some bows are above the technical skills of their owners.


Actually you completely missed the point...I didn't remove the wind stalker or the dropaway. The previous owner did. I just opened the box, gave a brief inspection then pulled her back and voila!! Lockup. 

You fanboys are too eager to defend bowtech when you don't even understand the problem. Either that or reading is too technically challenging for you.:wink: 

Anyway you misinterpereted an informational post as a slam against bowtech cause I have already come to realize:


- bowtech makes perfect bows
- all sights and rest will fit bowtechs bows
- bowtech does not have limb problems..people having pressing problems
- bowtech is better off without strother


Happy now?


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## grouse

juano2001 said:


> Anyway you misinterpereted an informational post as a slam against bowtech cause I have already come to realize:
> 
> 
> - bowtech makes perfect bows
> - all sights and rest will fit bowtechs bows
> - bowtech does not have limb problems..people having pressing problems
> - bowtech is better off without strother
> 
> 
> Happy now?



LOL . funny stuff


----------



## juano2001

Champion Shootr said:


> Not to mention how much the cables stretched after being locked up. 4 twists to get it back to normal means nothing without a point of reference to start from.



My cables never stretched. My cams did not over rotate like in the video on the bowtech site. I had my draw stop in. It actually looked exactly like a normal draw. Nowlin is dead on right. I am now exactly at 80% letoff by taking 4 turns out and removing a windstalker and dropaway. The average guy would not know what even happened to him in the situation I was in, they would have let go and blew up the bow. I was just lucky I had read about cam lockups on AT re Bowtechs. I admittedly didn't realize how sensitive they were and was sceptical that it could be done with the drawstop in, however I will never draw another bowtech without looking at the lobes for the string posts. Even a visual inspection of the cams did not alert me to what was about to happen. Specific knowledge would be required for these cams. I looked at my cams and thought they were timed off a little. The only clue I had was the high letoff at 60#, but even that could have been missed if I would have cranked the limbs down right away. Long story short these cams need to be handled with care.


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## Champion Shootr

juano2001 said:


> You fanboys are too eager to defend bowtech when you don't even understand the problem.
> 
> You're right, I don't understand the problem because from all the testing I've done with these bows I have only seen a 1% change in letoff for every twist put in the top cable.
> 
> Take a close look at those cables, if the bow locked up they did stretch at minimum and are probably in need of being replaced.
> 
> You're right though, these bows need to be handled with care. Preferably by a bowtech dealer. The problem is solved for '06 though with the upgraded draw modules having slots which the cables ride in at full draw preventing overdraw.


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## juano2001

Champion Shootr said:


> juano2001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You fanboys are too eager to defend bowtech when you don't even understand the problem.
> 
> You're right, I don't understand the problem because from all the testing I've done with these bows I have only seen a 1% change in letoff for every twist put in the top cable.
> 
> Take a close look at those cables, if the bow locked up they did stretch at minimum and are probably in need of being replaced.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe this make more sense, 100% letoff was acheived but he cams looked like they were rotated in a normal draw, they did not look over rotated. I can't explain it any better and I ain't gonna replicate it to send you a pic....sorry. If you want to try it put your draw stop at the 80 position and keep adding twists and yanking her back, 4 or so twists should do it
Click to expand...


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## juano2001

Champion Shootr said:


> Yes, these cams do need to be handled with care, preferably by your local dealer. The problem has been taken care of for '06 though with the update to the mods the cables rest in a slot now so they can not slip past and lock up.


OK, good do the K8's look similar cause my allegiance is gone away right now to get some


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## Dens228

Juano, is the Allegiance you have on E-Bay the one you locked up?


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## juano2001

Ya one and the same...its not for sale though now I just mailed it out to Elite today...forgot to end the auction, thanks for the heads up...UHH wait I mean no I have 2 of them...wanna buy one?


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## Dens228

No thanks :wink: 

I already have my 05, I was getting some prices for a friend.


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## juano2001

Dens228 said:


> No thanks :wink:
> 
> I already have my 05, I was getting some prices for a friend.


If you shop right you can get em for under 400$ bare.


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## Champion Shootr

juano2001 said:


> If you want to try it put your draw stop at the 80 position and keep adding twists and yanking her back, 4 or so twists should do it



Been there, did that and nothing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but like I said before without a good reference point your 4 twists mean squat. You don't know where the bow was when you started, locked it up and then added twists. Sorry it happened, but you can't compare apples to oranges.


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## juano2001

Your confused I never added any twists...I took 4 out, exactly as nowlin predicted. Let me guess...you got in a peeing contest with nowlin and he mopped the floor with you and now you lurk here looking for anyone who agrees with nowlin so you can fight with them. I've noticed Nowlin can no longer be bothered with you..haha.:wink: 

As if the cable would have stretched...winners choice no less. Your funny.


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## Champion Shootr

Dosen't matter what you did for twists. Nobody mopped any floor with me, because nobody has ever proven that 2 twists equals 15 percent letoff. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but you have no solid evidence of any problem with the bow, only the set up. I could really care less what you or anyone else thinks, because I know and can prove what works and dosen't. Thanks for skirting the issues as in all your posts.

Have any idea how much pressure is on those cables when locked out? .................I thought not. By the way I never said you added twists or took twists out, just pointed out that 4 twists put in or took out didn't mean anything if you didn't know where you were when you started out.


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## juano2001

I was where I am now...perfect, as long as I don't put a winstalker and drop away on, then I would need to add 4 twists as Nowlin has pointed out to you. I can prove it too...No windstalker, no drop away = 100% let off. Remove 4 twists and back to 80%. I don't think Dave or I could explain it any more clear so I'm gonna leave you with a little advice....don't mess with your binary cams you obviously don't understand them. PM me or nowlin before adjusting....oh their is also this cracker jack fellow I heard about who has a rep for being good with BT cams:wink:


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## Champion Shootr

Yeah, I thought that would be your reply. I will offer you the same challenge I offered Mr. Nowlin. Which by the way he never accepted either. Meet me and we'll prove who's right once and for all. I'll even bring the bow, brand new off the shelf. Dosen't matter to me because I've set up way more bows than you have being I shoot for a bowtech shop and never locked one up yet. Funny how anytime someone has information to contradict dave or yourself you jump all over these people, but you have admitted in your previous posts you had no idea what had been done to the bow before you got it. Come on down we'll put 4 twists into a brand new bow and I'll shoot it for you anytime you'd like. Other than that, I'm done with this thread. If this was a thread about Martin bows it would have been pulled a long time ago, but seeing as its Bowtech we will just let the bashing and back biting go on forever. Good luck with whatever bow you choose.


----------



## pdq 5oh

C Shooter, you're talking to a Nowlin "fanboy". He's loaded with "knowledge", and is now the other authority. Those of us that have actually *worked* on the Binary cam bows have practical experience. Not internet savvy.  :wink: It's kind of like trying to convince Chihuahua he's smaller than a Rottweiler. They just don't get it.


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## Takeum

Dave,,, I personally appreciate the help you've given here on aol concerning these binary cams,,, I really like the cams but, man do they give you a hard time when trying to tune these bows so they shoot straight and fast,, not to mention the fact if you do the wrong thing,, you can LOCK up a customers bow and break a few iteams that could costs hundreds,,,I now use a whisker Biscuit on my 05 Alleginace,,,but I have been shooting a few indoor shoots lately and would like to change over to a drop away if it's not a whole lot of trouble for my" wannabetechs out there,,, Not that they don;t know a few things, but as far as learning how to add twists , and learning to time a bow by taking out twists there,, and adding some there, They are quite lost,,, Perhaps the people at Bowtech should do like the automotive business world has done, and come out with a service book of some kind and help the folks out who have to service these bows,, sure would be of some great value to not only techs out there,,, but we backyard mechanics as well,,, Hey Dave,,, Perhaps you should start yourself up a service center for guys like me,,, i surely wouldn't sending my bow to someone that knows alittle something, something,, and get it " Nowlinized",,, Keep up the great would Dave,,
Takeum


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## grouse

Champion Shootr said:


> Good luck with whatever bow you choose.



I thought he already chose a bowtech. Isnt that what this was about? If I am not mistaken Dave still shoots bowtech, so how is there any bashing?


----------



## 3DZapper

"You're right though, these bows need to be handled with care. Preferably by a bowtech dealer. *The problem is solved for '06 though with the upgraded draw modules having slots which the cables ride in at full draw preventing overdraw.*"

WHEW!!! You guys had me nervous. I just ordered an '06 Constitution, my first Bowtech. 

All I could think of while reading this was my bow locking up, not knowing what to do, my heart racing, my Zapper going off and the bow blowing up. Not a pretty picture. :scared:


----------



## Champion Shootr

grouse said:


> I thought he already chose a bowtech. Isnt that what this was about? If I am not mistaken Dave still shoots bowtech, so how is there any bashing?


Not talking about bow bashing, just bashing a person who has come to a different conclusion about these cams. My experiences with the binary cams are not the same as what some others have obviously experienced. I have not been able to draw the same conclusions about 2 twists equaling 15% letoff no matter how many bows I try it on. I let people know what I have seen with these bows, but there seem to be some who can not believe this to be true. I am bowing out of this thread because I do not want to jeopardize my position on team bowtech.

By the way, zapper you'll love the constitution. I got mine a week and a half ago and the last 2 rounds I have shot with it have been 300 57X and 300 56X. Great shooting bow.


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## grandpawrichard

Dave called me today on his nickle and talked to me at length about this problem. He explained it in terms that I totally understood very quickly and easily!  I thank him for that call and I Highly Respect him and Crackers for readily sharing their knowledge, even tough it falls on deaf ears and eyes sometimes! 

Thanks again for the call Dave! I totally enjoyed our 2 hour phone call and I sure did learn a lot from you. Plus it was great talking Bass fishing with you!  :wink: :tongue: 

Dick


----------



## LastCall

I read this article and was a little confused at first, but I PMed Dave and he sent me a better explanation related to my problem. I wasnt getting 80% letoff, twisted the cable just like he said and got it back to 80%.

It worked for me!

Thanks Dave!:thumbs_up :beer:


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## living1512

I've got a question, lets say you change from a 30" module to a 29" module and don't move the draw stop post, would the bow potentially lock up at full draw on an 06 model. Not bashing or any evil intent just curious. Most probably a dumb question but interested just the same.


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## Dave Nowlin

It is doubtful due to the draw stop built into the module. Now for my question, why would you purposefully do that? It would not only effect letoff but also draw length.
Dave Nowlin


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## bowtech_babe

pdq 5oh said:


> C Shooter, you're talking to a Nowlin "fanboy". He's loaded with "knowledge", and is now the other authority. Those of us that have actually *worked* on the Binary cam bows have practical experience. Not internet savvy.  :wink: It's kind of like trying to convince Chihuahua he's smaller than a Rottweiler. They just don't get it.


Oh that is the best way I have heard it put:thumbs_up 

Samantha


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## Viper69

I really wish I would have read all this crap before just ordering a 06 Tribute. Am I to understand that the new 06 models don't have this problem anymore? Because if it still a problem why would anyone spend $700 on a bow that is this crazy to tune. Thanks for the help.


----------



## pdq 5oh

Viper, the 06s have a stop built into the draw length module. So no, they won't lock up. Don't fret over the musings of Archery Talk's misinformed. The 05s were only a problem for people fooling around where they shouldn't have been. I doubt a very few bows actually did this. If you've shot the Tribute, you know how fine a bow you're getting. If not, you'll see when it arrives.
As to tuning, set your bow up as you would any other. Tuning is not a problem. The potential for problems arise when people start messing where they shouldn't. But then I've seen bows from every manufacturer messed up by people that didn't know what they were doing. There's plenty of knowledgeable people willing to help you out, should the need arise. 

Sam, glad to see you back and doing well.


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## Viper69

Thanks for the help. I just got really upset after I just ordered the bow and then I read this post. I've bought alot of new bows over the past 20 years and I never heard of a top end bow that required such tuning. I've put drop aways rests on several bows and never had to put twists in the cables before which in itself isn't a big problem but then to hear that the bow could lock up and even the limbs could break if its not done right. I was hoping to put on a Trophy Taker rest and just do the regualr rest tuning without messing with the cables and let off and twists ETC ETC.


----------



## bowtech_babe

pdq 5oh said:


> Sam, glad to see you back and doing well.


I'm glad to see you setting the record str8 on this thread:thumbs_up 

BTW, how are the kiddos doing?

Samantha


----------



## jagger

here is my situation I just bought a tribute 29 dl weight is set at 60lb holding weight is 21lb post is set to were chart recommends. dealer pretty much says this is the way they are.I called bowtech and they said to get an ra number and send it back that this is definetly not right has anyone else had to do this?2006 model


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## pdq 5oh

The dealer is wrong. Did anyone try moving the draw stop? The post settings are a starting place. You can make small changes by moving them. Also, unless you have a pretty accurate scale, measuring exact holding weight might be tough and inaccurate.


----------



## OlMossyHorns

*Question*

I dont know if this has been brought up but, I just bought a Hoyt Trykon XL and Bought a Hoyt NAP quicktune dropaway for it, now being this is a hybrid cam, does the same apply??


----------



## alabama_slamer

*Where do I measure for the 1/16 of inch.....*

As I have stated many times before, when timing these bows it is necessary to get the string posts 1/16 inch from the face of the limb and then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam. If you don't add the 2 twists the bow will be at 65% letoff, even though the draw stop peg is set at the 80% position. Now stop and think for a moment. The letoff was increased by 15% by establishing a difference of 2 twists between the cams. 

I had my defender setup at the archery shop and want to verify the 1/16 inch . Thanks


----------



## Rabbit

*jagger*

I'll bet your draw stop is in the wrong place...see attached chart.

Also, I bet some potential Bowtech customers are going to be misled be this thread, (unless they read every post) even though it started out as really just a heads up for a potential but, unlikely problem for most people.

With all that said, I could ot be happier with my new Tribute, (bullet holes from 3' out) it's solid, quiet, super fast and was very easy to tune.  

Also, Dave knows his Sh**.:wink:


----------



## gwmican

Dave, I know you have been answering way too many questions so I don't mean to bother you but I have one for you If you can answer it for me. I have been shooting my 05 Old Glory now for a few months. I don't frequent here very often, so I just came across this post. I have noticed my bow doesnt seem like it has 80% let off, feel like much less. I have a Trophy Taker fallaway and a Windstalker on it also. My local pro shop here installed them for me and they didn't do any string adjustments at all when they put these items on. After reading this entire thread, I looked at the string posts location on the cams and both of them are dead even with the limbs. I also have the post for the letoff set at 80%. By reading this thread I came to the conclusion that I need to add 4 twists to the top cam to bring it back to 80%.Am I right? I will try posting some pics for you so you can see where my string posts are right now. Thanks for your help Dave! :wink:


----------



## gwmican

ttt


----------



## ARCHERTC

*My two cents*

The original post only applies to the '05 Binary system. The information on the original post has nothing to do with the '06 models. If you have questions about '06 bows contact Bowtech direct and ask for technical assistance. They DO NOT have any such problems with Binary in '06 that I have personally come across. In fact it's one of the nicest cam systems I've ever worked with in the last ten years.

ARCHERTC
BOWTECH DEALER
PITTSBURGH,PA


----------



## ELKhuntR

pdq 5oh said:


> Viper, the 06s have a stop built into the draw length module. So no, they won't lock up. Don't fret over the musings of Archery Talk's misinformed. The 05s were only a problem for people fooling around where they shouldn't have been. I doubt a very few bows actually did this. If you've shot the Tribute, you know how fine a bow you're getting. If not, you'll see when it arrives.
> As to tuning, set your bow up as you would any other. Tuning is not a problem. The potential for problems arise when people start messing where they shouldn't. But then I've seen bows from every manufacturer messed up by people that didn't know what they were doing. There's plenty of knowledgeable people willing to help you out, should the need arise.
> 
> Sam, glad to see you back and doing well.



Make sure your 06 has the new module, mine didn't and that was last week. I would call ask them.


----------



## ELKhuntR

ARCHERTC said:


> The original post only applies to the '05 Binary system. The information on the original post has nothing to do with the '06 models. If you have questions about '06 bows contact Bowtech direct and ask for technical assistance. They DO NOT have any such problems with Binary in '06 that I have personally come across. In fact it's one of the nicest cam systems I've ever worked with in the last ten years.
> 
> ARCHERTC
> BOWTECH DEALER
> PITTSBURGH,PA





yes they do, TRUST ME. Call Bowtech


----------



## ARCHERTC

*Taken care of ELKhuntR*



ELKhuntR said:


> yes they do, TRUST ME. Call Bowtech


I already did and talked to Kevin Duffy.....He's my rep and I'm his dealer.


----------



## gwmican

ttt


----------



## boots

*book*

:wink:


Dave Nowlin said:


> Let me begin by saying, this is not a bashing thread. It is being posted for informational purposes. As I have stated many times before, when timing these bows it is necessary to get the string posts 1/16 inch from the face of the limb and then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam. If you don't add the 2 twists the bow will be at 65% letoff, even though the draw stop peg is set at the 80% position. Now stop and think for a moment. The letoff was increased by 15% by establishing a difference of 2 twists between the cams. When someone adds a fallaway rest 2 more twists must be added to restore proper letoff and when someone adds a Windstalker 2 more twists are generally needed to restore proper letoff. Now let's say this person decides to remove the Windstalker and changes rests to a Whisker Biscuit and does not remove these 4 twists. Instant lockup and at least 2 have recently had limbs destroyed and cams damaged by forgetting to do these things. Folks these are great bows but they require we put on our thinking caps when we make adjustments to them. Enjoy your bow but please use care when adjusting it. As they say"this ain't your daddy's bow" and it can't be adjusted with the reckless abandon he could have gotten away with. Another thing is this, when you change strings and are installing new ones make sure your timing measurements are correct before drawing the bow, as if they are far out of spec you might lock it up. Remember you can adjust all you like with it out of spec, but don't draw it until your measurements show it to be in spec. Then many of these threads about locked up bows and destroyed limbs will go away.
> Dave Nowlin


u need to pick up a publisher and get a book out on that seriously. very well said:wink:


----------



## ftshooter

is this on 06 bows as well?


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## CagomoC

*Help is Here!!*

Sorry for you guys... let Bi cams be Bi cams and Solo cams be Solo cams. Let Experience and Karma do the jobs that is needed. Why be open minded and Close minded when willingness take over inpulse added due to financial debate. We all can not be blind folded by the Benjermins... "Yes">>>------> MONEY.. Is What rules your Disisions on opionions....Religist or Non-religist can't!!!! Rule over MONEY for it is the First Highest POWER!!!.. Ask Jeeves? or Ask The friendly Goverment?....


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## ChappyBoss

Hi All,
Quick question, I have a 06 equalizer, I have changed the strings for 452x made to factory spec lengths and prestreched. My problem is the draw length is about right. But the draw weight is down to 56lb. I tried putting a couple of twists in to the cables, but this doesn't seem to help much. I would like to know either know the string and cable lengths for a 60lb 26.5" equalizer. I rang bowtech and the guy I spoke to was trying to help-but didn't really seem to know what he was talking about, couldn't really give me any useful information.
Regards ChappyBoss


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## nuts&bolts

*Sounds like your bowstring is slightly short*



ChappyBoss said:


> Hi All,
> Quick question, I have a 06 equalizer, I have changed the strings for 452x made to factory spec lengths and prestreched. My problem is the draw length is about right. But the draw weight is down to 56lb. I tried putting a couple of twists in to the cables, but this doesn't seem to help much. I would like to know either know the string and cable lengths for a 60lb 26.5" equalizer. I rang bowtech and the guy I spoke to was trying to help-but didn't really seem to know what he was talking about, couldn't really give me any useful information.
> Regards ChappyBoss


ChappyBoss:

Sounds like you unknowingly short strung your bow.
Try taking some twists out of your bowstring, and then, retime your cams and check brace height and ATA.


----------



## ChappyBoss

Hi Nuts,
Do you happen to know what the ATA for an Eqaulizer should be. Bowtech couldn't give the measurement. Their site says 32", but they seem to be longer than this when the ship them. Any ideas?
I will try making the string longer and then correcting the cam rotation.
Regards ChappyBoss


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## nuts&bolts

*Sorry, don't know...just take out some twists and measure DW*



ChappyBoss said:


> Hi Nuts,
> Do you happen to know what the ATA for an Eqaulizer should be. Bowtech couldn't give the measurement. Their site says 32", but they seem to be longer than this when the ship them. Any ideas?
> I will try making the string longer and then correcting the cam rotation.
> Regards ChappyBoss


Hey there ChappyBoss:

I would just take out a few twists, and then remeasure the DW.
I have read through all of Dave Nowlin's posts many times, and just be careful. Take out a few twists on the bowstring, and then check the cam timing per all of Dave's warnings. Tweak the cables as needed.

Do you have a crank board? It's pretty simple to make.

Here is a picture of a very nice one made by TBailey.


----------



## ChappyBoss

Hi Nuts,
Your the man. I was working with the idea that the string should be the factory spec length-wrong. Put the cables on at spec and then worked the string length out a couple of twists at a time-result 60lbs 6 dots showing on the cams and getting 78% let off with the post in the factory spec position. I wish bowtech would put a little more information out, ie string charts for each module size. Big Thank-you to you Nuts for taking the time to point me in the right direction.
Regards ChappyBoss


----------



## nuts&bolts

*Glad to be of help*



ChappyBoss said:


> Hi Nuts,
> Your the man. I was working with the idea that the string should be the factory spec length-wrong. Put the cables on at spec and then worked the string length out a couple of twists at a time-result 60lbs 6 dots showing on the cams and getting 78% let off with the post in the factory spec position. I wish bowtech would put a little more information out, ie string charts for each module size. Big Thank-you to you Nuts for taking the time to point me in the right direction.
> Regards ChappyBoss


Anytime. Glad to be of help.
nuts&bolts.


----------



## northshoremb

*I have a 2005 Constitution and need to make a new string but like someone said before about Bowtech not supplying us with any info on there website about string length or cam timing as well as specs on past models. Does anyone know the exact BH and AtA for the 2005 model along with the cable and string lengths?? Like in an earlier post by someone should the lobe with the hole in it just be showing, or should the hole just be showing? I want 80% letoff and whatever is the most accurate.*


----------



## eugene1e®

Try this


----------



## ManHunter

*Not exactly...*



Marcus said:


> Wow the guy asked you a question and this is your response. Try actually explaiing the reason and not expecting everyone take your word as gospel. :thumbs_do


The guy didn't just "ask a question"; he asked a question, then stated that Dave was wrong. If you doubt what Dave said is true, check with Bowtech; they agree...

Maybe a question without a follow-on editorial of "By the way, you're nuts" would have been treated a bit differently.


----------



## tinman1

*Bowtech Binary*

Thanks for all of the great info Dave. To all of the smart ellecky ones, if you're not smart enough to own a Bowtech, don't buy one!


----------



## Saphire

Dave Nowlin said:


> Let me begin by saying, this is not a bashing thread. It is being posted for informational purposes. As I have stated many times before, when timing these bows it is necessary to get the string posts 1/16 inch from the face of the limb and then add 2 twists to the cable going to the top cam. If you don't add the 2 twists the bow will be at 65% letoff, even though the draw stop peg is set at the 80% position. Now stop and think for a moment. The letoff was increased by 15% by establishing a difference of 2 twists between the cams. When someone adds a fallaway rest 2 more twists must be added to restore proper letoff and when someone adds a Windstalker 2 more twists are generally needed to restore proper letoff. Now let's say this person decides to remove the Windstalker and changes rests to a Whisker Biscuit and does not remove these 4 twists. Instant lockup and at least 2 have recently had limbs destroyed and cams damaged by forgetting to do these things. Folks these are great bows but they require we put on our thinking caps when we make adjustments to them. Enjoy your bow but please use care when adjusting it. As they say"this ain't your daddy's bow" and it can't be adjusted with the reckless abandon he could have gotten away with. Another thing is this, when you change strings and are installing new ones make sure your timing measurements are correct before drawing the bow, as if they are far out of spec you might lock it up. Remember you can adjust all you like with it out of spec, but don't draw it until your measurements show it to be in spec. Then many of these threads about locked up bows and destroyed limbs will go away.
> Dave Nowlin


I have the 2006 Equalizer would I still have to put 2 twists in the cable if I am using drop away, it is attached to the cable guard.


----------



## pdq 5oh

You won't need to add or subtract twists assuming you don't make the lifting cord too short, binding the cables. The thing with attaching to the slide is it'll bind both cables when too short. Let off won't change, but binding both cables will raise draw weight a bit.


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## Saphire

Thanks Phil. I am not bothered about the extra bit of weight just concerned that after reading all through this post that I have things set up correctly. I am having a few problems but that is in another post in bowtuning.

Christine


----------



## Cottonmouth

Erh.. Ok so I just read all this umm.:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: 
So in other words I shoot a whisker biscuit. Leave the bow alone and if I need to change the string or work on my Tribute. Let Crackers do it. I think i got it.


----------



## lazy8

Hi Dave.

New to archery, addicted to it, and there is a lot for me to learn. I can't begin to understand how a post setting could change letoff. Maybe if I see all the cam modules, it might help. I don't even know what all needs to be done to tune a binary cam bow, or just to even make it quite. Fortunately for now my bow is lot more accurate that I can shoot it. 
Thanks for all the info on how a binary cam bow can get out of symetry, and how to return it. As much as love my bow, I have a lot of respect for it.

Lazy8


----------



## Casts_by_fly

lazy8,

The post setting is easy. As you draw the bow, the string on the cam is unwinding from a curved surface (the cam groove). The draw curve will be based largely on the curve of the cam groove. To get a letoff, you have to suddenly change the curve that the string is unwinding from to a straight line to suddenly pay out a little extra string and to decrease the force the cam can exert on the string (thus how much force you hold on the cam to keep it in place). It is easiest to think of a traditional hatchet cam (Maxis from PSE or the old XI cams). The string starts on the really curved end of the hatchet. As the hatchet unwinds the string comes to the flat part of the hatchet and you feel the bow jump into the valley. The valley is caused by the flat side of the hatchet cam. That is also the jump you feel when you let go of the string. That flat side of the cam sucks up a bunch of string and the steep spiral of the round side rips the string away.

Now instead of using a super flat hatchet, lets say you leave just a slight curve to the flat side of the hatchet. As soon as the cam rolls over you start to get letoff. The further you roll the cam over the more the curve flattens out and the more letoff you get. The draw peg stops you from getting to the full letoff position. As you lengthen the peg, you allow the cam to continue giving letoff. Thus why if you remove the peg you can overdraw the bows to 100% letoff. The string has no moment arm to pull on the cam, even though you have two tons of energy stored in the limbs.

There was a nice draw curve (at least the last few inches of it) on the bowtech website that illustrated how the letoff increases with the increased draw length. I can't find it, but I'm sure someone here has it.

For tuning, check your critical specs against the factory standards. Check ATA, brace height, peak draw weight and letoff. If any are out of spec, go through the various tuning guides posted here on AT to fix it.

Thanks,
Rick


----------



## NCBuckNBass

Dave Nowlin said:


> As I stated previously, I have no intention of discussing this off this thread. I have nothing to hide. These findings of mine have been found to be true by Mike "Crackers" Carter, Jerry/NJ, Buckfeverben, and countless others I have helped tune these bows. Much of what I have learned has been with the help of Mike Carter. It's simple with both cams timed identically you have no valley and 65% letoff. When you then ****** the top cam by 2 twists you have a valley and 80% letoff. I didn't design the cams so I won't pretend I fully understand exactly why these cams behave this way. By the way, some of the people I have advised about these bows have been engineers and although my advice worked for them I'm not sure they fully understand why these cams work this way. I don't understand all there is to know about electricity either, but I have learned better than to stick my finger in a receptacle.
> Dave Nowlin



Are you saying I can't stick my finger in the top and the the bottom receptacle or both? Please be more specific.

If I use a Limbdriver rest (or a fixed rest like a Wisker Bisquit for those who may be wondering) can I forget about adding or subtracting cable twists in that the pull of the cord on the upper limb has no effect on the timing like it would on the down cable?

When will this thread be out as a movie in a theater near me and who will play Dave now that Viacom canned Tom Cruise?


----------



## marforme

NCBuckNBass,
That is correct, if the bow is currently tuned correctly and you add a whisker biscuit or a limbdriver you do not need to subtract 2 twist from the top cam cable because you have nothing attached to the cable to pull them slightly out of time. I talked to Dave this morning and the only drop-away rest he will use or reccomend is the Limbdriver.


----------



## roadapple

Preacher said:


> This may sound like a stupid question but what do you do *IF* the bow locks up on you ? Throw it down and run ? Try to get to a press before it comes unlocked in you hand ? I'm not trying to be smart but what is the procedure if you see someone on a range with a locked up BowTech ? I wouldn't get close to it but I could stand back and yell the information to them.


I know its a serious situation, but almost fell out of my chair when I read it!
Too funny!


----------



## fire-archer

Vapor trail limb driver 

this will solve all your problems


----------



## gs123

*what a difference*

Just got a 06 allegiance off at and it had a trophy taker installed on it but it was the 1st design with the small launcher.So decided to switch it with the the pronghorn launcher for hunting.After reading all this I thought lets pull the bow back before hooking up the string WOW what a difference very noticeable holding change,more valley, more let off.Number 1 it is attached 4 inches tops below the rest I also think maybe the strings to short not a pro but something is not right.I've tried to soak up all this info and I'm going to the local bowtech dealers ,there the pros I'm not.I will mention what I've heard here from Dave and every one else.Thanks


----------



## DixieBoy

*Tomkat*

So I just bought a tomkat last week, i left the w.b. on it but wanted to change to a drop away and now youve got me worried. so goin to the d.a. ups your letoff over 80%? and then the cams lockout at full draw or wont draw? i just havent heard of this and want to make sure i do the required things to keep my new bow, which i love, operating properly. thank you for the info, very important stuff.


----------



## powderfinger

You got it backwards dixieboy, tieing in to your down cable DEcreases your letoff. But it is minimal if you tie in low like Mr. Nowlin suggests.


----------



## greywolf44

*Binary cam timing*

I noticed that the last post in this thread was a year ago so I thought I'd share my experience of the past few days on this topic. What is in this thread is certainly relevant to all versions of the binary cam system.

My local Bowtech dealer is a good friend who only recently acquired his BT franchise. I took him my newly acquired 2005 Constitution for a cam/draw length change. After the change the bow had no valley and was trying its best to pull my arm off at full draw. I left the bow at the shop, came home and jumped on AT. Today I took the information from this thread back to the shop: I was one day less blind. We figured it out together. When this highly competent old time bow mechanic realized that everything he thought he knew about tuning compounds did not apply to binary cams his eyes got big as silver dollars. Gadzooks!

Thanks to Dave for starting this thread. The battle is not quite won because I still have to deal with the dropaway rest issue and I've got 76% letoff at 50 pounds. My instincts tell me that this beauty will soon shoot as good as it looks.

Greywolf


----------



## sneak1413

this thread kind of makes me wonder because i have two 06 allegiances and i now own a guardian and i have never seen one locked up or ruined because of timing. i have purposely over rotated my cams on my allegiance aka i put extra twists into the cable and according to this thread my bow should have had limb problems and locked up. i never had any problems with it. my draw was actually a half inch long compared to where they should be. i had 27 inch modules with a 27 and a half inch draw length. if i understand this thread right i should have had some major issues yet i never did. i did however have to adjust my timing on my guardian after tying on a drop away, which is understandable and i totally agree with the fact that that will change as well as let off. but i don't understand the cam lock up scenario. someone want to fill me in here on what im missing?


----------



## Dens228

The 06's and later have stops built into the cams to prevent the over rotation and lockup.


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## Just 1 More

YOU guys must be tying your drop cords in putting a lot of stress on tyhe down cable or ??? I have set up a few Synergys so far, Most with TR drop Zones. I press the bow, split the down cable and put the cord through and un press.. Draw the bow and let the cable and cord kind of work themselfs out. Sometimes I have to press and adjust due to the twist as the cord slided up in the cable,, but none have had any timing issues after.


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## sneak1413

Dens228 said:


> The 06's and later have stops built into the cams to prevent the over rotation and lockup.


thats what i thought cuz i also shot my allegiance without the draw stop on it with my carter evo and never had any problems. the modules alone will act as a back wall its just a little spongy but no more than some other bows i've shot. thanks for the info that clears up the statment a lot. i just started working on the bows last year and have done a lot of playing but i started when the new 06 came out so i never played with the 05 or earlier ones except for new strings, cam swaps and what not at our shop. but ill keep that in mind for future works.


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## siucowboy

don't know about the bowtechs, but I wouldn't rely on the cable stops on the cams on an Elite to stop your draw. Not to mention it's hard on your cables and you'll see the wear spot in short order....they're really meant as a last resort safety option, not something you want to ever have to use, but there if you need it.


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## lineape

Dave, you are the man when it comes to Bowtechs.


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## karday

*OLD Glory Lockup*

Someone asked what to do if their Bowtech Binary Cams lock up. Well I was trying the Dave Nowlan and Bowtech directions for new strings I made. I made the strings like I normally do with about 1/4" extra length and then twist them to exact dimension before installing. Bowtech direction was to reverse twists on the opposide cam for what you do on the upper cam. I was trying to get the letoff at 80% and sneaking up on it. Paaaatwang....locked up as did my skivvies when the arrow didn't release. Fortunately I was next to my press and I immediately put the bow in the press and relieved the tension. (My personal tension needed a touch of Johnny Walker Black and a new pair of underwear) I removed the strings and cable and put them on the string jig and reset the length to factory specs and reinstalled them on the bow. Fortunately the limbs and riser were not damaged after close inspection. I checked the clearances of the string etc and all seemed to spec. But can you imagine the abject fear in trying to draw the bow again after lock-up. Equivalent to Osama Bin Laden in a cave with a dialysis machine and no power. I had to let it sit for 2 days until I got the nerve to try it again. When I completed the first draw and the arrow fired fine I could breath again. I had bought the Easton device to measure poundage and letoff and the bow was back to normal. The letoff isn't a full 80% but I just reduced the draw to 60# and I am going to leave it as is as it shoots fine and plenty fast. Oh yea my underwear are now Rhorshock targets. 

My guess is that after the initial Binary Cams and this fearsome lock-up situation the folks at Bowtech said, "Whoaa" potential liability issue and then went to modules and stops onthe follow-on design. I am sure the market pressure to come up with something new every year to be able to sell bows creates this "dare to be different and great" mentality in the engineers and they possibly could accelerate things a little.


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## BOWHUNTER2727

*Thanks,*

This article has helped me so much, I have had so much trouble tuning my bowtech tribute, I think this may be part of my problem.

I def agree with the earlier comment about dealers not knowing how to tune these bows, my local dealer is a great guy, but I think he needs to read up on these bows


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## bigiron

*Great Instruction*

Talked to Mr Nowlin today about timing issues,drawing boards etc.What a nice person he is.I got most of it but at some point will have to talk to him again.Someone here said he should publish a book,what a great idea and w/ lots of "good" photos.I'm going to build or buy a drawing board,anyone have photos or plans they could post?


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## macworkz23

*Darton Pro3000 may be different.*

(


> 1) When installing a fallaway on a binary cam bow it MUST be timed to rise at the last 1/2 inch of draw cycle. (2) When tying into the down cable you need to tie in 6 inches below the rest to avoid distorting the path of the cable which will cause nock travel problems


My Darton Pro3000's tune a bit differently. I have a 60lb and 70lb version. They both use QAD pro series rests. The rests are set to come up about 2 1/2 inches before full draw.


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## Anubis

*Applying Dave's suggestion to a Bowtech Guardian [long]...*

Hi All,

I have exchanged a few emails with Dave (he's a really great guy!) because I have a Bowtech Guardian which was slightly out of specs. Despite the fact the Guardian uses the Binary Cam system, it has some differences so what Dave says it not immediately applicable. What I am going to describe now are my findings, hopefully those information may be useful to someone else and I hope that Dave will be able to confirm (or deny) what I am going to describe. I have also added a few pictures. Sorry for the long mail!!!

The situation: Bowtech Guardian, RH, 70#, 33.65" ATA. 75% let-off (should be 80%). As you can see the ATA is slighly shorter but still within specs (according to Bowtech, ATA is 33.75 " +/1 1/4 ") and I would like to achieve 80% let-off.

My findings:

1) I have looked at both cam and the draw-stop peg is located on the bottom cam; the rotation of the cam is stopped when the cable gets in contact with the draw-stop peg (so, unlike other binary cams, the draw-stop peg does not get in contact with the limb). See the first picture, which is taken from the left side of the bow, looking down from the riser. 

2) When the bow is drawn, the cam rotates being pulled by the string and so does the stop-peg, until it hits the cable and stops the rotation. See the second picture, the red arrow means the string which is pulling the cam. Note the initial position of the peg and the final position in contact with the cable (black line).Also this second picture is taken from the left side of the bow.

3) I have to increase the let-off from 75% to 80%, so the bottom cam has to rotate a bit more, so the peg has to have a different initial position, closer to the outer limb. To do that, I have to increase the tension on the cable that defines the initial position of the bottom cam. See the third picture, which shows where the stop peg should go to have an higher let-off and how to do it: increasing tension on the cable marked by the red arrow.

4) Increase tension should be simple, I have to add one or more twists to the cable described before *BUT* if I just add one or more twists to one cable I will also increase the pre-load on the limbs, shortening the ATA and increasing the peak draw weight. Since I want to keep my bow in specs, I will have to add twists to the cable which is "pulling back" the bottom cam and at the same time subtracts an equal number of twists to the cable "pulling back" the top cam, so the overall pre-load will remain the same but the cams will have different initial positions. See the fourth picture: it is again the bottom cam, seen from the left side of the bow.

If all of this makes some sense, I should therefore restore the 80% let-off. What's your view?

(Dave if you see this, let me know what do you think ).

Cheers,

Anubis


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## HoytBoy3000

that's why we call em BOWRECKS!!!!!


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## Bellows1

Anubis said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have exchanged a few emails with Dave (he's a really great guy!) because I have a Bowtech Guardian which was slightly out of specs. Despite the fact the Guardian uses the Binary Cam system, it has some differences so what Dave says it not immediately applicable. What I am going to describe now are my findings, hopefully those information may be useful to someone else and I hope that Dave will be able to confirm (or deny) what I am going to describe. I have also added a few pictures. Sorry for the long mail!!!
> 
> The situation: Bowtech Guardian, RH, 70#, 33.65" ATA. 75% let-off (should be 80%). As you can see the ATA is slighly shorter but still within specs (according to Bowtech, ATA is 33.75 " +/1 1/4 ") and I would like to achieve 80% let-off.
> 
> My findings:
> 
> 1) I have looked at both cam and the draw-stop peg is located on the bottom cam; the rotation of the cam is stopped when the cable gets in contact with the draw-stop peg (so, unlike other binary cams, the draw-stop peg does not get in contact with the limb). See the first picture, which is taken from the left side of the bow, looking down from the riser.
> 
> 2) When the bow is drawn, the cam rotates being pulled by the string and so does the stop-peg, until it hits the cable and stops the rotation. See the second picture, the red arrow means the string which is pulling the cam. Note the initial position of the peg and the final position in contact with the cable (black line).Also this second picture is taken from the left side of the bow.
> 
> 3) I have to increase the let-off from 75% to 80%, so the bottom cam has to rotate a bit more, so the peg has to have a different initial position, closer to the outer limb. To do that, I have to increase the tension on the cable that defines the initial position of the bottom cam. See the third picture, which shows where the stop peg should go to have an higher let-off and how to do it: increasing tension on the cable marked by the red arrow.
> 
> 4) Increase tension should be simple, I have to add one or more twists to the cable described before *BUT* if I just add one or more twists to one cable I will also increase the pre-load on the limbs, shortening the ATA and increasing the peak draw weight. Since I want to keep my bow in specs, I will have to add twists to the cable which is "pulling back" the bottom cam and at the same time subtracts an equal number of twists to the cable "pulling back" the top cam, so the overall pre-load will remain the same but the cams will have different initial positions. See the fourth picture: it is again the bottom cam, seen from the left side of the bow.
> 
> If all of this makes some sense, I should therefore restore the 80% let-off. What's your view?
> 
> (Dave if you see this, let me know what do you think ).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anubis



Very nice explination. :darkbeer:


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## PA.JAY

agree with everything but what is your max poundage at the specs..?


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## deerhunter81

ttt


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## BoTec1

Dave, thanks for the info! Is this the reason you say the "limbdriver" is good for the binary cam bows?


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## Fortancient

Dave if I send you my Guardian can you set it up for me? I just had a limbdriver put on it yesterday. Guy who set it up had no ideal what I was talking about when I brought up some of these issues of Binary cams.

Oh for a good bowtuner around here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SOmeone in a previous post told me to do it myself after I told him that it was a little out of my scope so I am still searching.


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## bowhuntermike89

*Awesome!!!*

This is an awesome thread. I have learned so much about the binary cam systems and their proper tuning. I will continue to use DA rests and am looking forward to getting my Elite bow with the binary cam system. I am new to the tuning world of archery, but the information I gathered from this thread has intrigued me with the little details that can change the bow's performance and efficiency. I am very excited to start tweaking my bow to get maximum performance. Thank you guys for all the information.:smile:


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## varcher

I concur!


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## StickyString

This sounds like way too much hassel for a bow.


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## fletched

StickyString said:


> This sounds like way too much hassel for a bow.


It only sounds that way. Binaries are no more of a hassle than any other cam system. In fact, I find them easier to tune and set up.


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## mecca

StickyString said:


> This sounds like way too much hassel for a bow.


The nice thing is---you can't over rotate one cam by pulling harder on the bow like I could with my trykon (even using a peg)--when it stops it stops.

Tuning is not any more difficult than the cam and a half system or any dual cam bow for that matter.

And the two I've got don't even need a stabilizer or dampning to be dead in the hand not to mention how quiet they are.


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## tracy bullock

shermo said:


> How is a Fallaway rest going to change let off
> 
> It's not going to change anything


Thank you!!The let off is the same with or without a rest of anykind.This guy want never touch my equipment...:mg:


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## switchraph

tracy bullock said:


> Thank you!!The let off is the same with or without a rest of anykind.This guy want never touch my equipment...:mg:


this guys is a hundred time more knoledgeable than you'll ever be
common dropaways will add pressure on the down cable and will change the sync of BINARIES cams


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## a1shooter

*2008 X force 6 HF*

I've been out of shooting for quite some time and was looking to get me a new bow. I got the X Force 6 HF, 2008 model. Used bow and I havn't been to a pro shop yet. There has been an awfull lot of advancements in technology since the 90's which is when I last shot a lot. I thought it was a two cam bow but I think I was wrong about that. Could someone please tell me what type of cam system this is. How many cam systems are there now? One cam, binary, 1 1/2 cam, and two cam? Any more? Also was looking for a fall away to go on the X force HF. What about the Spot Hogg whammy. It seems that this rest wouldn't do what was being discussed at least at the start of this thread since it seems to me to work opposite of most fall aways. (I think- never actually looked them over yet. Some help for me in the fall away rest selection please. I liked what I saw in the video I watched on the Whammy.)


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## a1shooter

*ttt*

Any help here? Thanks


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## vulcan320

Pretty sure that the X-forces use the same setup as Hoyt's cam &1/2. They should tune the same. Check the sticky at the top about creep tuning Hoyts, or search anything by Javi.


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## TimberMan49

tracy bullock said:


> Thank you!!The let off is the same with or without a rest of anykind.This guy want never touch my equipment...:mg:


I think this is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read. :doh:


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## tracy bullock

TimberMan49 said:


> I think this is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read. :doh:


Yeup....Here's there sign...LOL


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## tracy bullock

switchraph said:


> this guys is a hundred time more knoledgeable than you'll ever be
> common dropaways will add pressure on the down cable and will change the sync of BINARIES cams


Here's your sign!!!!!!!!:mg:


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## tracy bullock

switchraph said:


> this guys is a hundred time more knoledgeable than you'll ever be
> common dropaways will add pressure on the down cable and will change the sync of BINARIES cams


I've have probably forgot more than you will ever know....Your'e still shatin' green....Lay down fanBOY...


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## totalcomfort

ttt for great info


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## totalcomfort

ttt easy to find when i get home


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## completepassthru

i put a drop zone on my Allegiance and the let off is the same as before. I just set it up to come up in the last 1/2 in. or less of the draw. I do not know it all but i have never had a problem changing rests and have not put in or removed twists to the cables. If this works for some people that is great. I personally think we complicate things way too much.


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## completepassthru

StickyString said:


> This sounds like way too much hassel for a bow.


It is not that much of a hassle. You do not have to go overboard on every little thing. I have seen the cams out and someone put up a good score. Just put the rest on you want to use and time the cams and shoot. I was kind of scared off the binary cam bows at first but not anymore. You can complicate things by obsessing over every little thing.


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## Just 1 More

completepassthu said:


> i put a drop zone on my Allegiance and the let off is the same as before. I just set it up to come up in the last 1/2 in. or less of the draw. I do not know it all but i have never had a problem changing rests and have not put in or removed twists to the cables. If this works for some people that is great. I personally think we complicate things way too much.


:set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud:


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## SpotShy

Seems like this whole drop away rest interference thing has been beat to death but I'll add my two cents: If you set any drop away rest up properly on a binary it will work flawlessly. The keys are where you install the cord to the down cable and do it with use of a draw board and a digital scale. This way you can check to see if the cord is placing undue tension on the down cable and affecting the cam sync. You also can double check by measuring the let-off. Most times when I see bad set-ups it is due to too short of a cord and it causes side pressure of the down cable or the rest is set-up to rise too quick. The idea of the drop away is to be gone after the release. An arrow rest serves one purpose, to hold an arrow at full draw at a predetermined elevation off the shelf. After that it has no purpose. Shoot more, stress less.


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## jdcamo

Need some advice. I have a 09 BT Sentinel. I had a proshop put on some strings and cables. The proshop said it was perfectly timed and ready to go. When the bow is at rest it shows 5 dots on the top and 1 dot on the bottom cam. I dont have a draw board but when I draw in front of the mirror it seems that the top cam is a little behind the bottom cam when going to full draw. Do you think I should change anything or is it good to go?


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## switchraph

tracy bullock said:


> I've have probably forgot more than you will ever know....Your'e still shatin' green....Lay down fanBOY...


i'm no fanboy at all, i never stated i know more than anyone else, i'm still learning everyday but honestly your postings sucks, get arguments when you want to argue.


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## tracy bullock

switchraph said:


> i'm no fanboy at all, i never stated i know more than anyone else, i'm still learning everyday but honestly your postings sucks, get arguments when you want to argue.


:beer::elf_moon::crybaby2::elf_moon::whip2::crybaby2::icon_1_lol::set1_rolf2:


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## Bowtech_Fan

That is pretty mature Tracy. And the fact of the matter is that if you install a drop away rest in such a manner that it puts too much force on the cable it changes the timing of your cams which directly affects the let off of your bow. So I advise that you do a little more research on the topic before you start bad mouthing other members.


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## tracy bullock

Bowtech_Fan said:


> That is pretty mature Tracy. And the fact of the matter is that if you install a drop away rest in such a manner that it puts too much force on the cable it changes the timing of your cams which directly affects the let off of your bow. So I advise that you do a little more research on the topic before you start bad mouthing other members.


I have forgot more than you will ever know...I didn't ask for your advise..We all have our own opinions......And by the way If anyone can't set up a fallaway proper on Binary's,Single cams,Double cams etc. give me a shout I can.Some are trickier than others..99% of the time it's not the rest, but how it's set up....


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## Bowtech_Fan

tracy bullock said:


> I have forgot more than you will ever know...I didn't ask for your advise..We all have our own opinions......And by the way If anyone can't set up a fallaway proper on Binary's,Single cams,Double cams etc. give me a shout I can.Some are trickier than others..99% of the time it's not the rest, but how it's set up....


Saying that you have forgoten more than I will ever know is a pretty bold statement since you know nothing about me or my background.


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## a/c guy

jdcamo said:


> Need some advice. I have a 09 BT Sentinel. I had a proshop put on some strings and cables. The proshop said it was perfectly timed and ready to go. When the bow is at rest it shows 5 dots on the top and 1 dot on the bottom cam. I dont have a draw board but when I draw in front of the mirror it seems that the top cam is a little behind the bottom cam when going to full draw. Do you think I should change anything or is it good to go?


I'd set it up so they hit the stops at the same time.


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## tracy bullock

a/c guy said:


> I'd set it up so they hit the stops at the same time.


Set to stops as stated..Always set time at full draw...Most of the time you can feel it in tour cams...Since you don't have a draw board have some lookat your cams for you.Go one twist at a time on the cable that needs to rotate cam...


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