# Lens in front of or behind the pin?



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Code.Mafia said:


> I thought that you wanted the lens behind the pin, but I'm wondering why so many scope manufacturers put the lens in front of the pin. Maybe I've got it backwards? What are the pros/cons of each?


Fact is many and most put the pins behind the lens. I like the fact that removal of lens if pins in front doesnt effect the sight tape. It basicly a personal thing and both work. If I was designing a scope, I would make it possiable to have it either way. Wouldnt be that tough. Diffiantly more have the pin behind the lens, Both work! 
DB


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

I thought there was a reason not to have the lens in front. Something about the curvature that altered the actual position of the dot vs perceived position or something like that. Maybe it was that the curvature moved the dot slightly and if you take out the lens because of rain or something then your dot is now in a slightly different spot which would throw off your point of impact slightly. Versus if the lens is behind the pin the spot is always in the same spot regardless of whether the lens was in or out. I don't remember exactly, I just remember something about wanting the lens behind the pin. That's why I'm asking.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

I think there is a mis-interpretation of in front/ behind. Almost all manufacturers have the pin behind the lens. That is you see the pin first and the lens is past or on the other side of it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

CBE the pin is in front of lens. CR scope picture it can done either way. Viper the pin is diffiantly behind the lens

Top two pictures is my Vipor scope.


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

Bowtechie said:


> Almost all manufacturers have the pin behind the lens. That is you see the pin first and the lens is past or on the other side of it.


How are those two sentences the same? The first says pin behind the lens the other says lens behind the pin. Is the "front" of the scope not the side closest to the shooter at full draw? And if the pin is closer to the shooter than the lens at full draw, then wouldn't that be called "lens behind the pin"?


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

Daniel Boone said:


> CBE the pin is in front of lens. CR scope picture it can done either way. Viper the pin is diffiantly behind the lens
> 
> Top two pictures is my Vipor scope.


I thought the Viper had the lens behind the pin but I called and talked to them yesterday and they said it's in front of the pin. I'm looking at the CR, Classic and Specialty Archery scopes now. Going to call them today.

I really like the pins on the Viper scopes. Same as the Classic's which I like also.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Code.Mafia said:


> I thought the Viper had the lens behind the pin but I called and talked to them yesterday and they said it's in front of the pin. I'm looking at the CR, Classic and Specialty Archery scopes now. Going to call them today.
> 
> I really like the pins on the Viper scopes. Same as the Classic's which I like also.


I got a smaller size housing CR scope. Be glad to send it to you to try.

You wont be dissapointed with either of those scopes. Classics and Vipors are the two most popular in are area.

Classic with a LP blue light is hard to beat. Little tricky to set the pins (Not cheap at all). Vipors are great values and hard to beat. I just switched to CBE, I shot the Vipor pictured there at the state shoot. I think Im going back to smaller housing next year.

I do agree the steel up post pins are the best. But you can buy an extreme steel pin and mount on any scope. Just drill and tap it with a 8/32 thread I believe is what it is.
DB


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

Code.Mafia said:


> How are those two sentences the same? The first says pin behind the lens the other says lens behind the pin. Is the "front" of the scope not the side closest to the shooter at full draw? And if the pin is closer to the shooter than the lens at full draw, then wouldn't that be called "lens behind the pin"?


No the front of the scope is the end away from the shooter. Think of a rifle scope do you look through the front or the back of the scope? And if the lens is in the front then like I said almost all manufacturers put the pin to the rear of the front which is behind.


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## paheadhunter (Apr 12, 2011)

I never knew the viper was behind the lens. all my setups I have ever shot have been in front of the lens. Does it change your sight picture / viewing window?


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

paheadhunter said:


> I never knew the viper was behind the lens. all my setups I have ever shot have been in front of the lens. Does it change your sight picture / viewing window?


I think that's the problem, what you and I consider 'in front' of the pin is what everyone else calls 'behind' the pin. Apparently the broadhead end is the front end. I understand that on an arrow, but when I'm talking 'in front' (when discussing sights), I'm talking closest to my eye. So I think its a confusion in terminology.


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

OK, back to my original question. Why would you want the lens in front of or behind the pin? Pros/cons of each.


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## isaacdahl (Feb 27, 2010)

Yeah, I'm confused too. On the scope that came with my Sword Titan, it has the lens behind the pin. Why would you want it in front? I want to magnify the target, not the pin.


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## LHpuncher (Apr 12, 2004)

Code.Mafia said:


> OK, back to my original question. Why would you want the lens in front of or behind the pin? Pros/cons of each.


for me in front of the lens works best, that way if I take the clairifer and lens out my point of impact will stay the same


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

LHpuncher said:


> for me in front of the lens works best, that way if I take the clairifer and lens out my point of impact will stay the same


Same reason I like the pin in front of the lens. But honestly both work great. This is the only reason I see any difference.
DB


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

Just to clarify. When you guys (DB and LHpuncher) say you like the pin in front of the lens, do you mean having the lens closer to you at full draw or the pin? I think you mean the pin closer and if so I agree, this is how I want mine. But I sent some emails to the scope manufacturers, and Steve Mack at Classic Archery said "why do you want the pin in front of the lens?" (and I explained what I meant by 'in front'). I figured a scope manufacturer would have all those answers.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I modified my classic scope to have the pin in front of the lens. (pin is closest to my eye) The lens is in the back (closest to the target). 
All I had to do is flip the housing around and then add a sight ring (bright color ) to the part facing me.

To be totally honest, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. But in my mind it does. I didn't want the pin magnified, just the target.


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

Here's what Steve Mack @ Classic Archery had to say for the reason to want the the lens behind the pin (closer to the shooter than the pin):

"By design, the lens is in front of the pin and level. Anything that is on your side of the lens can cast a shadow or bounce a reflection into the lens that you will see. If this were to happen on the back side of the lens it would bounce away from you and you will not see. Also, in bad weather there is nothing you can do to keep your string from throwing water qat the lens. With all devices on the back side of the lens they are not in the way so you can easily clear the lens."


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Code.Mafia said:


> Here's what Steve Mack @ Classic Archery had to say for the reason to want the the lens behind the pin (closer to the shooter than the pin):
> 
> "By design, the lens is in front of the pin and level. Anything that is on your side of the lens can cast a shadow or bounce a reflection into the lens that you will see. If this were to happen on the back side of the lens it would bounce away from you and you will not see. Also, in bad weather there is nothing you can do to keep your string from throwing water qat the lens. With all devices on the back side of the lens they are not in the way so you can easily clear the lens."


Did Steve mention anything about the lens distorting the pin at all? or magnifying it?


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

I replied to his email and said what LHpuncher said about not changing the point of impact when clarifier and lens were removed. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to get a reply from him.


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

I also replied again and told him what you said about the target magnified and not the pin. I gave him a link to this thread.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Code.Mafia said:


> Just to clarify. When you guys (DB and LHpuncher) say you like the pin in front of the lens, do you mean having the lens closer to you at full draw or the pin? I think you mean the pin closer and if so I agree, this is how I want mine. But I sent some emails to the scope manufacturers, and Steve Mack at Classic Archery said "why do you want the pin in front of the lens?" (and I explained what I meant by 'in front'). I figured a scope manufacturer would have all those answers.


When your facing the scope housing from bow. The lens is behind the pin. Only a few manufactuers do it this way. If you really 
unsure buy a CR scope. But look at all the archers shooting scopes and Classics and Vipors are pins behind the lens when facing the 
scope housing from the bow. Many have no problems showing you there scopes. Best value for you is a Viper Scope. If you going to do 
the LP light go with a Classic. Next time your at Lukes or at a shoot look at everyone set on practice bags and ask to look through them.

If you want the pin in front go with a CBE. Im learning I like a steel up pin for my fibor this year. I went back to my viper scope.


What you got to do is see what works best for your eyes. Only good reason for pin in front is you could remove lens and it wont change the 
sight tapes and you can still hit the same spot. If it raining just remove it.


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## CLASSIC ARCHERY (Feb 13, 2009)

Code.Mafia brought this thread to my attention and asked me to comment. Many years ago when we started making classic scopes our purpose was to design a housing that protected the lens better than those that were available at that time. Some of you will remember the plastic screws that held lenses in plastic scope housings.
Our contribution was the aluminum housing with the threaded lens retainer. We also benefited from the expertise of ZEISS engineers. Code.Mafia correctly stated my comments to his question. In addition, the lens does not magnify the pin, because it is too close to the lens. A good way to demonstrate this is to lay your lens on some news print and slowly lift it up, noticing how far the lens will get before you see noticeable enlargement of the letters. Our competition at the time we introduced our scopes, copied the threaded lens retainer idea, finding comfort in using the idea and reversing the placement of the lens to in back of the pin. Thus they were able to claim they had not copied our idea. To defend that decision, they claimed they did that so the lens would not magnify the pin. It does not matter where the pin is relative to the lens when you decide to shoot without it. The important thing is that the optical center of the lens is in the mechanical center of the lens. If so you will not see any change.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

That is great news. 

See guys now it's settled.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

XForce Girl said:


> That is great news.
> 
> See guys now it's settled.



Different Scope manufacturer have there thoughts and views. Classic makes a good scope. Just like many on the market. Your 
going to find so many different points of view with scopes on the net and every where. You got to just try a few and find what works for you. Just go buy a few and try them for yourself. You be the judge. I assure you if I go put my lens in my Viper scope it will 
impact differently through my eyes.
DB


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## Code.Mafia (Sep 8, 2010)

Daniel Boone said:


> Just go buy a few and try them for yourself. You be the judge.
> DB


That's the problem. I don't want to buy more than one. I want to make sure I get the right one the first time which is why it's taking me so long to make my decision, otherwise I would have bought one a month or two ago.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Code.Mafia said:


> That's the problem. I don't want to buy more than one. I want to make sure I get the right one the first time which is why it's taking me so long to make my decision, otherwise I would have bought one a month or two ago.


Tough call. I have owned just about ever scope made. Most would do the job well. Still comes down the archer.
DB


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

I shoot a Viper. My lens is between me and the pin. I shoot a .10 size pin. I can also remove my lens and have the same point of impact, 
because the lens is in front of the pin. I shoot a 3 power lens without a clearifier and I like this setup.


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