# How do you learn to keep you bow-shoulder low??



## RafaPolit (Jun 26, 2006)

I am a grown up 29 year old man starting to shoot (just 4 months). From that perspective, I have a little more understanding of my body than very young people. I have achieved what I believe is a good starting routine to keep my bow shoulder down.

a. After correct stand (I use an open stand) I pre-tense the bow (just one or two inches) with the bow resting in my right thigh (a little lower realy). This allows me to start the shot with a level upper body, not tilting toward the target.
b. I then rotate both collarbones (left down, right up) so that the left collarbone (with the shoulder) goes down, rising the right shoulder. I achieve this by pushing the bow towards the ground. I have to be carful only to tilt the shoulders keeping the head straight.
c. I rotate the right elbow so that the articulation is not facing to the sky but facing right (paralel to the shooting line)
d. I then rise the bow arm to aiming position breathing in and without drawing!!! I bring the bow a little higher than normal and (* this is very important for me *) I bring the right hand almost to my eye level. This accomplishes two things: the right arm has no other choice but to be in-line with the arrow; the left shoulder has to be lowered for the bow to be higher than normal.
e. I then let go of my breath taking particular care on relaxing the right shoulder (sometimes its just a tad high)
f. I finaly draw making a somewhat downward movement to reach the chin.

This is, of course, not to be credited to me, but to every person and book that has chipped in my technique, and of course is not a proven method that will work on everybody. It just works for me, for the moment.

Hope it helps, and if someone has a comment that will help me improve, please let me know, Im more than open to other ideas.

Nice topic!
Rafa.


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## krfoss (Aug 25, 2006)

Another option would be a mental approach. While focusing on the body is important, especially with physical memory in position, it leads to more muscle tension and general stress than the desired movement/ relaxation. 

Approach the stance (Feet, knees, hips, trunk, shoulders, head). Then pull the shoulders down HARD (with bow in hand) like you are flexing and lifting weights (this imagined action is important). Then relax because you cant shoot tense. Then, dont _lift_ the arms from the shoulders, _push_ the bow out from underneath the arm and lats. I know its physically impossible to push and extend with a flexor muscle, but thinking the push is key. Furthermore, imagine you are scooping the bow and bow arm up to position. 

This could work for you. Mentally moving yourself, rather than physically, can have a huge effect on the shot. It gets your mentally into the form and fully focused.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

And you cannot forget: never pull a poundage greater than that which you are use to. i can tell you that one of the biggest ways for your shoulder to kick up is shoulder fatigue from having to hold it down when the poundage is too heavy.


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## Duss (May 23, 2006)

*Breathe your shoulder low*

Along the lines of RafaPolit's post.

I breathe in while elevating the bow arm trying and keeping the shoulder as low as possible and then breathe out, which actually brings the shoulder down.

Does two things at once : breathing and posture


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Do not tell them to tense up muscles, we don't want tense muscles. Tell them to set their shoulder low. Have them practise without a bow for a while, and then with an elastic band. Most people are not flexible enough to lift their arm and not their shoulder, so they need to develop that flexibility. 
Some of my students won't shoot for weeks getting this right.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

There you go Marcus! Talking about about people hurting themselves again  

This is super hard to do and especially for older folks with joints that are basically already set in stone 

I've been working on it for almost three years now and am just barely in the ball park. It's taken super hard work, lots of ice and advil to get to where I am and I've still got a ways to go. I used to argue with Marcus that it was impossible for adults to pick up this part of the technique as it's simply just painful to get.

It's not just something you pick up and do over night. Having someone show you how to use a theraband the ridged strap will speed up this process quite a bit. Though you'll probably need something better than advil for the first few weeks. Just ask all the folks who go to see Coach Lee for the first time  

Cheers,
Pete


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Don't expect to be able to do anything in sports correctly c3 if you have not developed the flexibility to do so yet. Like saying "well I want to be a runner but you are telling me I need to become flexible in the legs to do so? That sucks"
Spend some months making yourself flexible and then try it. Nothing worth doing is either fast or easy. 
If you are too old to become flexible then buy a compound. 

Sorry I posted. :zip:


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

c3hammer said:


> It's taken super hard work, lots of ice and advil to get to where I am and I've still got a ways to go.


Glad to hear I'm not the only experiencing bow shoulder pain trying to incorporate this into my shot routine. I guess it's encouraging to keep trying when others are feeling the pain. :wink:


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## ALASKA MIKE (Jul 13, 2002)

i tell the archer to put the bow down for a second, then i tell them to picture their shoulder as a hinge, i then demonstrate lifting the bow arm while the shoulder stays in place. then i have them do it, if they still dont get it, then i have them goto a wall and put their fist against the wall the same way they would hold the bow, then lean against the wall slightly so they can get feedback from their muscle groups. doorjams work even better. if they still dont get, then i whip out the genisis bow, cuz its obvious they arecurrently overbowed. the genisis is much light which allows the archer to raise the bow with the proper muscles rather than tensing up the deltoids and causing a higher shoulder. i alsouse the tap method oncein awhile.

mike


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

*What I see*

For me and what I see in my students is the inability to raise the bow-arm up into position using the correct muscles. Because of this they employ the (I think they are called )deltoid muscles. Those that run at the rear of the shoulder joint to the back of the neck.

These muscles being stronger the student compensates and uses these to raise the bow-arm. In doing so however they then cannot use the lats to keep the shoulder down in a stable shoulder joint set-up. Add to this then the poundage weight of the bow and there is a formula for a high, weak shoulder.

It is the specific strengthening of the correct muscle that runs over the top of the shoulder to the neck area that I'm currectly focusing on. As one sterengthens this muscle and uses this muscle correctly to raise the bow-arm you can start to use the lats to help hold the shoulder down. Creating a mores stable shoulder joint. 


Regards,


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## leos61 (Mar 13, 2006)

*High/low bow shoulder*

I seem to have a chronic problem with the high shoulder as well and, as noted, it is tres difficult to correct.

So Massman, what are the exercises that you are focusing on to address this problem? TIA.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

This issue is one of "flexible strength". As you move to the edge of you mobility, your strength goes way down. It's not about how strong you are in the end of the day, but how strong you can be way out at the end of the range of motion in the bow shoulder.

Lift your bow arm up and back as far as you can with no weight or bow in hand. Most people won't be able to keep the shoulder down and even get their bow arm up to level and inline with the shoulders. 

After working on it for 6 months very seriously, I can now move my bowhand about 2 or 3 degrees behind the line of the target and about 6" above horizontal with no weight. All the time keeping that bow shoulder down with a very distinct v-notch. Add the mass weight of the bow and I can now barely get to horizontal and not behind the line at all.

The lat muscles have no effect on this at all. They are counter productive as Marcus was pointing out. They won't help in this flexible strength in any case. You can squeeze them all you want and it won't help that bow arm go up and back simultaneously at all. What you find is that while you may think you're moving more, what's actually happening is that the bow scapula is simply sliding around behind your rib cage more. This isn't really what we're trying to get to though.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

good post c3
Most archers do no work on their flexibility, yet it is essential to getting some aspects correct, such as pulling the shoulder down. 
Spend some time each day lifting your arm to the side without lifting the shoulder and you will soon find it easier. Many newer archers can not even lift their arm more than halfway while keeping the shoulder low.
Remember, good recurve archery is not about brute strength, it's about efficient use of your body. That is why my small wife can shoot 70lb recurve bows and do it easier than many men can shoot 45#.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

*cont...*

Agreeing with Pete & Marcus,... the extent to which you can lower your shoulder and or raise your bow-arm is subject to the archers "flexability". However included within that is also the strength in the correct muscle group to perform the task at hand.

When I suggest some level of strength training I like to find ways to allow students to train without having to go out any buy specialized equipment. For this exercise I like to suggest using a six pack of soda. Preferably the 20 oz sized containers in a plastic harnes. A student can remove one bottle from the pack. Start by learning the correct motion with the correct muscles without any weight. Once you are comfortable (2-5 days) you can add one bottle in the bow-hand. Repeat the exercise with very light weight until this again becomes comfortable (1 wk). Then add a second bottle to the plastic harnes. Over the course of a few weeks you can then build up gradually. I stress not pushing adding weight to fast to avoid injury. 

It took me one month to get to all six bottles (app. 6 pounds) doing this exercise two to four times daily, with 10-15 reps per time.

Take is slowly. This will allow you to work on using the correct muscles to raise the bow arm helping to promote a more stable bow shoulder. You then need to incorporate light bow poundage to continue the process.

Regards,


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Here is a slightly different way to look at the issue. Don't lift the bow up. If you go back to your copy of "The Simple Art of Winning" one of the steps in the draw cycle is to set the bow. What that means is to set your grip hand properly, grasp the string and apply a little pressure so the bow stays "set" in your grip hand and some pressure in your shoulders. All of this is done with the bow pointing down and you should be leaning forward a bit. As you straighten up and start drawing, the bow will come up naturally without having to lift it. Proceed smoothly into a low draw and your shoulder will set low natually as you come to anchor. Your bow shoulder should stay relaxed during the whole process and do no work.

There is no lift the bow step. Just a straighten up step. If you lift the bow your shoulder will rise. And for god's sake don't lift your bow hand way up in the air to get some extra strength into the draw.


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## Duss (May 23, 2006)

*Not bad, Geoffrey ;-))*

Yes indeed, Geoffrey, you have given the nail a good hit.

The real point is never to consider any part of the body as being an independent part. Everything should be considered as an "ensemble".

Another point in keeping the bow shoulder low is in raising the bow arm : don't overdo it. No excessive motions, either before the shot or afterwards.

This bow is not a majorette's baton.

Minimum efforts for maximum results == efficiency


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Here is what we teach at our JOAD club.

I have my new archers get into their stance and then take their bow arm and push down and out as you raise you bow arm. This keep you arm straight, it helps engage the proper muscles and it keeps the shoulder low. 
In fact raise your shoulder and then do this movement. Your shoulder goes back down. You can not make this movement and keep you shoulder up. 

I have them push on my hand with the shoulder up and then down. This shows how when it is low there is skeletal alignment. With is High they are holding with their rotator cuff.

Then we have them use the stretch bands.

After a little time doing that we have them keep their shoulder low and I push on their hand. Then I have them raise their shoulder and push on their hand. I then ask them if they feel the difference. You can see they can tell the difference just by the look on their face.

After a few times we have them raise their arm and while their arm is up we then push on their hand to let them know how the bone to bone alignment feels. 
We then have them raise their shoulder and push again to show them.


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

I keep my shoulder down by starting out with my weight shifted to my front foot. Then I put the bow straight out with my sight on the target. I set my shoulder where i want it and draw straight back. I just keep my shoulder in the low position while drawing. I think that if you start in the wrong position you are going to have a tough time correcting it at full draw.


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## RafaPolit (Jun 26, 2006)

You guys (specialy Marcus and c3Hammer) make it sound so difficult to accomplish this, that I am almost certainly sure I am not making it right.

How can I verify if my shoulder is where it should be and if I am using the right muscles (I am not a native english speaker, so Ill have to look at a translation of which muscles you are talking about).

Is there something like a method for verifying correct shoulder posture?

Thanks,
Rafa.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

If you don't have a coach you simply have to look at pictures of the top archers to see their posture and alignment. Take video and draw a light poundage bow in a mirror. If you are honest with yourself, you can say "that's not right" then go about sorting the flexibilty, strength and dexterity to get there.

Here's a couple of pics of Park Kyun Mo that should get you well on your way to having correct posture 



















Cheers,
Pete


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

c3hammer said:


> If you don't have a coach you simply have to look at pictures of the top archers to see their posture and alignment. Take video and draw a light poundage bow in a mirror. If you are honest with yourself, you can say "that's not right" then go about sorting the flexibilty, strength and dexterity to get there.
> 
> Here's a couple of pics of Park Kyun Mo that should get you well on your way to having correct posture
> 
> ...



good pics PETE but will CMJOAD get upset over the QUIVER :wink:


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

*How about a BAD example*

OK, we have the picture of a good example, now how about a picture of what not to do for direct comparison.....


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

bsu_beginner said:


> And you cannot forget: never pull a poundage greater than that which you are use to. i can tell you that one of the biggest ways for your shoulder to kick up is shoulder fatigue from having to hold it down when the poundage is too heavy.


Absolutely right! I found this out the hard way. As soon as I dropped my draw weight, I dropped my elbow. Turned out to be a little noticed shoulder injury. After 6 months at lower poundage, and resting the shoulder, I'm back up to more than I was before.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

hockeyref said:


> OK, we have the picture of a good example, now how about a picture of what not to do for direct comparison.....


I have thousands of those type of pictures and almost as much video of all sorts of shoulder and alignment issues. We don't want to look at them though. 

The name of the game is to picture perfect and then perfect it further from there. Looking in the mirror or at film of ourselves shows us easily all the wrong ways 

Cheers,
Pete


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## DMerry (Mar 13, 2006)

This is one of the best threads I have read on AT to date. Thanks to everyone for writing so frankly about a common problem and the painful results of incorrect shoulder position. At this rate all 12 steps of the KSL Shot Cycle will be discussed on AT in no time at all! I find this feedback and discussion so very helpful now. I recently injured my shoulder as a result of improper form, so thanks to all again.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

*Begin Low Versus Lowering it*

OK let me get this straight. You draw with your shoulder ALREADY in the low position. Do any of you lower it some more while you are at full draw, or do you leave it alone?


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I'm not good enough to be anybody's role model but I am old enough (58) to have some problems with this. I get a lot of crunching and grinding sounds from the shoulders while I'm drawing. Bow shoulder usually ends up too high. As I settle into my anchor and begin my back tension, one of the steps in my shot sequence is to settle the bow shoulder. Never thought I was pulling it down but I might be. Feels like I just let it "settle" down.

YMMV, Dave

PS: This may be aggrivated by the fact that I'm a Barebow Recurve shooter. The high anchors I use (face walker) put my shoulders in different geometry than the Olympic recurve shooters I see.


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## Miika (Jun 29, 2003)

c3hammer said:


> Here's a couple of pics of Park Kyun Mo that should get you well on your way to having correct posture


Interesting (to some, maybe...), Mr Park has changed his stance:

http://www.miikaaulio.net/athens_2004/park_km.php


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Reverend said:


> OK let me get this straight. You draw with your shoulder ALREADY in the low position. Do any of you lower it some more while you are at full draw, or do you leave it alone?


I don't think you can get it to settle more once you've applied pressure. You are just tying not to activate any muscles in your sholder because you are likely to cause it to rise up if you do. You'd really like your bow side to be dead from your finger tips back to your spine. Once you are at full draw the only active muscles should be your fingers so you don't let go of the string and the big muscles in your back to get the arrow through the clicker. Everything else should be as relaxed as is feasably possible.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

Here is a PDF file what you want to look for when your bow shoulder is in the correct position.


Raise only the bow arm and bow, not the shoulder.
Raise and extend the bow arm as if reaching for the target and feel as though you are raising the arm from underneath by activating the latisimus dorsi
Look for the acromial notch (dip or groove) in the shoulder as a sign of correct position and extension

Hope this helps.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Hey Miika, I think that was very interesting as well. Here's a better view. He's also extended out on the bow shoulder a tiny bit more than before. I'll bet his draw length is 1/2" or so longer now.

He also shot another 119 in Shanghai, so it must be working pretty well 


cheers,
Pete


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## x10 (Sep 7, 2004)

If all else fails, ELECTRO-SHOCK therapy :mg: 

Very good ideas, now to go work on the low shoulder


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## ERdept (Oct 25, 2006)

I just came upon this thread. 

The strange thing is, I always keep my bow hand shoulder cocked up near my jaw. No one ever told me any different. Lowering the sholder feels odd to me.

I guess that's what I get for being self taught.


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