# Archer's Mark



## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

Is there any program available where I can put in the sight marks from "Archer's Mark " and get a tape that reflects the exact same sight marks I have from Archer's Mark ? When I use On Target or Archer's Advantage I get different sight marks than Archers Mark. The marks I get from AM are the most accurate so I want to use them. I would like list my numbers and run a tape with them not generate new numbers.
Thanks,
DFA


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I doubt there is anything better out there then those three. If they don't match up your putting in bad info some how. You can also force OT2 to give you the marks you need...you just have to play with things a little. 

I have friends that would struggle with OT2 and would use AA....I could put my info in their computer and get the same marks from both. But helping them with AM I could also get them good marks. 




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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

If you use a CBE sight, you may as well just write down your marks for every yard and do it that way. AM, AA, OT2 don't work with CBE sights.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

>>OT2 don't work with CBE sights.

OT2 pretty much will make tapes for any sight, including CBE...just use the Pin Gap method instead of the Sight Scale Marks method to calculate a velocity and make a tape. All you need is an accurate measuring tool. 

If you don't own a dial caliper or micrometer ($19.95 @ Harbor Freight Tools), you can just gang print a sheet of tapes using the Create Spread function and pick the closest tape to your shot-in marks.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> >>OT2 don't work with CBE sights.
> 
> OT2 pretty much will make tapes for any sight, including CBE...just use the Pin Gap method instead of the Sight Scale Marks method to calculate a velocity and make a tape. All you need is an accurate measuring tool.
> 
> If you don't own a dial caliper or micrometer ($19.95 @ Harbor Freight Tools), you can just gang print a sheet of tapes using the Create Spread function and pick the closest tape to your shot-in marks.


I have OT2 on two different computers and I didn't know that tip!!!!!!! 

Shoot in two marks, put in the peep to pin, peep height, arrow model and weight and stuff and then do the Pin Gap method?


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

I had to be taught all kind of different tricks and "lies" to get any of them to remotely work. You have to use a certain pin bushing type and fib to get it even in the ballpark.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

years ago I was in same paint as you now until realized (and thanks D*thmar):
-place a black electrical tape and shoot the ranges (20-30-40-whatever), try to hit consistently the top edge (ie), shooting dots is a cra*p
-shoot several arrows on each to eliminate the human errors
-write down the sight marks
-take a vernier/digital caliper and measure the distance from your sight, ie 20y=3.7 and ie 80y=36.6 (in my case the distance was 1.367")
-open OT2 in example and don't type anything, no equipment, no nothing...
-go to Calibration tab, on left side select "Sight Scale Marks" 
-and enter your numbers in open fields...........watch it, if you have let say 5.7 you will enter 5+14
-enter all your sight marks (let say you had 20-35-50-77) and check the cross check
- will calculate whatever calculates
-beside velocity will show the speed, you have there the "=" sign and right beside the " ˄ " click on it
-go to Make Marks tab and enter the Min/Max mark (in my case 15-120), but don't forget right above the dimmensions for the sight tape (0.28 and 3" in my case)
-right below there is a default check mark "no 20 to ???" uncheck that
-a new space will be available "20 to ... (in my case 80) 
- enter your number what you have measured (in my case it was 1.367) and hit the "=" sign
and go and print....
I just did a minute ago, spotless
compare your printed sight "paper" to the sight, its amazing, right?
:wink:

-


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

edgerat said:


> If you use a CBE sight, you may as well just write down your marks for every yard and do it that way. AM, AA, OT2 don't work with CBE sights.


Why won't OT2 work on CBE sights?


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

bigHUN said:


> years ago I was in same paint as you now until realized (and thanks D*thmar):
> -place a black electrical tape and shoot the ranges (20-30-40-whatever), try to hit consistently the top edge (ie), shooting dots is a cra*p
> -shoot several arrows on each to eliminate the human errors
> -write down the sight marks
> ...


That is very close to what I was shown. The thing that always throws me off on any of these programs is I had "assumed" that you plugged in all the actual data that you had in order to get the most accurate sight tape. That isn't the case. If I had a SpotHogg or Axcel or even SureLoc, I would just use Archer's Mark. Hopefully the new release of AM will fix the bug with the CBE sight.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

what I figure, if you want to rely on the program,
is the pitch on the elevation screw
every manufacturer is listing, let say one turn on knob is 0.002
but is not true
it is 0.0020057 or something like that, I don't have it open right now so talking offhead.
to generate the accurate sight tape you must input the equipment accurate sizes. In example sight radius, or peep height and things like that...
isn't just simplier ignore all and work on sight tape "size"
assume you have accurate shoot in distances.....aim on a line never on a circle or those painted 2" dots 
first easier aiming on line because concentrating on one (horizontal only) item, 
second, you can generate the sight tape in 3 minutes, but to get accurate 20-30-40---70 y marks you may need to get a tired a lot 
accuracy....if I have a good day I can hit a 1/2" electrical tape from 50y with all dozen arrows, an other day I can not come close even from 20y .....


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

Praeger said:


> Why won't OT2 work on CBE sights?


TEK target + Mathews Hyperlite worked well for me. Had 3 distances down to the mm, tape was fairly accurate.

Now I have the same CBE on a PSE Evo Max, with a peep-height that cannot be entered in OT2 (7" Seems the limit for some reason, mine is at 9), on an unavailable index (but I want to use this one for my scope+peep-size!) And I have it up the top mounting holes as to reach over 100 yards, and this combination is just something you cannot enter. In the same aspect I have my rest about level with the nock, which is also something that just doesn't work out well in OT2.

Ended up doing it myself in Excel / Illustrator of my own measurements, OT2 would just not work for me.

Heard the same about a Heli-M with a Quad lite and a Supra 2011 singlecam and the 3D (full size) CBE. Just couldn't get the peep / index right on it. Top-click is also something that you just cannot enter on a clickless ruler like the Tek series or HHA single pins.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Praeger said:


> Why won't OT2 work on CBE sights?


Most people won't get it to work unless they have the newer Elite version. Reason for that is because the others don't have a scale on the bar and there are no clicks in the sight. 

But as was stated you can still do it you just need to measure them or print out a MFG scale and use that as a reference. 


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

edgerat,

>>Shoot in two marks, put in the peep to pin, peep height, arrow model and weight and stuff and then do the Pin Gap method?

Yep....or "cheat" as outlined by bigHUN.. ;-)

Either method 20-80 uses a measured gap..

Pin Gap method..lets OT2 calculate FPS on the Calibration tab Pin Gap method..which generates a velocity that matches the measures gap, and is used on the Make Marks tab to make a tape.

or

Measure and Force method..shoot 2 marks, measure the gap, enter your measurement in the 20-? field on the Make Marks tab and force tape to the measured dimension.

Results will be the same.


Unicron,

>> Had 3 distances down to the mm
1mm = 3/64" = 0.046875"..Not good enough. That's the equivalent of 23 clicks on a Sure-Loc...O.. 1 full Mark on the MFG scale + 3 clicks.

>>with a peep-height that cannot be entered in OT2(7" Seems the limit for some reason, mine is at 9)
I doubt your Peep Height is 9"...that sounds like you're measuring "Peep to Nock Set along the string".

The Peep Height measurement is taken "*Center of Peep to Centerline of Arrow while at full draw*". There is a pic in the User Guide. Normal Peep Height for an average person with a "normal" anchor point is around 3"-4". Anchoring under your chin might be ~5". 

Brown Hornet,

>>Reason for that is because the others don't have a scale on the bar and there are no clicks in the sight. 
Good point, but even though a sight might not have "clicks" OT2 will assign a default "click value" that can be used. 

>>you just need to measure them or print out a MFG scale 
One of the tape print options is printing a MFG scale. Which can be used as a "cheesy micrometer". You can use it like a ruler off the sight or on the sight bar and estimate your Mark + Click value. IE with a MFG scale generated at 20 clicks per mark..half way between 2 marks = 10 clicks


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

Brown Hornet said:


> Most people won't get it to work unless they have the newer Elite version. Reason for that is because the others don't have a scale on the bar and there are no clicks in the sight.
> 
> But as was stated you can still do it you just need to measure them or print out a MFG scale and use that as a reference.
> 
> ...


OK, I've used it for my CBE Elite Target and 3D sight and it worked fine. I see the issue with the CBE TEK line or earlier versions - and [email protected] has described work-around.

I'll echo what other OT2 users have said, the program works very well - provided you spend some time reading the manual and get accurate measurements. You can get to a granular level using the "Spread" feature on the print tab which allows you to print a spread of tapes in increments of .1 fps up and down from a base velocity. This allows you to creep into a set of known marks without re-entering a slightly different velocity.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Sorry, my comment was for the Elite Target sight. It gets you close if you go by the numbers, so to speak but, not dead on. Archer's Mark has an issue with the algorithm that they use on the CBE sights. 3yd-20y dead-on, 65y-101y same, everything in between 20 and 65'ish for me, was off enough to keep me out of the dot on a Redding-type course. There are methods to get them to work with OT2, like the ones BigHun outlined but, I have not been able to figure out a way around it on Archer's Mark or Archer's Advantage.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

That's exactly what I was talking about....regarding printing a scale. I have done it in the past as I have two Quad Lites. It works great that way. 


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

Does anyone still use AA anymore?


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> edgerat,
> 
> Unicron,
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Reply!

to the mm was actually to the 10th of a mm. So indeed, about 2~3 clicks of a Sure-Loc. I never get them perfectly fine down to the click, I'm just not consistent enough. I could do it on a hooter shooter, but there is no point since I'm not a machine, I make mistakes. And this is my 3D setup with the Tek Target... For the Challenger it works fine.

I set the program to metric, since that is what my precision tools are. I wanted to have my peep at 9.48 Cm (peep center to top of shaft at full draw - ok, might have messed that up I see here now). Entered both 3.73" and "9" -> 7, both didn't get me usable tapes.
Using the pin gap method, my 60# Evo is estimated to shoot 354 fps, while the 3 chrono's I've shot it over gave me 308 ~ 317 (all three with 0-1 fps variation in 10 shots, I know which one is hot ;-) ) These tapes are too widely spaced on the close marks, too far on the further ones...

Since I excelled myself a functional scale, I'll try again to see if I can find a matching one by doing it right in OT2!


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

Unicron said:


> I wanted to have my peep at 9.48 Cm (peep center to top of shaft at full draw -


The proper measurement is center peep to center of arrow shaft. 

Here's the section from OT2 Manual: 



> Peep Height and Sight Radius
> These data are key to obtaining good results when making sight tapes or charts. They should be as accurate as you are capable of measuring. Using a dial caliper or other ultra accurate measuring device is a good idea. Peep Height is measured from the centerline of the peep to the centerline of the arrow shaft. Sight Radius is measured from the centerline of the peep to the plane of the scope lense or pin(s). Both measurements must be taken while at full draw. If you shoot without a peep sight, substitute "your eye" for taking the measurements..."eye to plane of scope lens/pins" and "eye to centerline of shaft".


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

one worst data is working with "velocity", you better keep the speed for yourself. anyway, we tried to compare 3 chrony's, no two the same...
not accurate even to use as a cross check only, so I would better just skip that option.

better use the "arrow drop", you got 20 and 50 y i.e. and measure that distance....

the best and accurate is entering sight marks, that is a trigonometry, calculates numbers what you enter....
eventually you can use both above as a cross check.

you folks talking about entering bow, sight, peep data, believe me you can skip all that and leave it blank. fancy stuff, for entertainment only.
me, Im spending 5 hours getting my distances right and I want my sight tape in 3 minutes, done
(yes, Im using OT2 since beta time, also had AA and can't remember what was the name for 3rd but the last two buried in my old computers HD, print out so much wrong tapes until realized, whatfor to spend this much time with it  I just want my tape bangon


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

bigHUN said:


> you folks talking about entering bow, sight, peep data, believe me you can skip all that and leave it blank. fancy stuff, for entertainment only.


The sight radius and peep height are required for sub-yardage marks.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Praeger said:


> The sight radius and peep height are required for sub-yardage marks.


this is not needed if you have your all own measured distance values (distance and/or pin drop values)


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

Unicron,

>>I set the program to metric

Probably contributing to the problem. The METRIC setting is for the distances only. All the inputs are still standard inches and pounds.

Your marks/clicks or pin gaps are being resolved for distances in meters..that's most likely reason for the high FPS result.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

*Sub-Yardage Sight Marks*



bigHUN said:


> this is not needed if you have your all own measured distance values (distance and/or pin drop values)


I think you're wrong on this one. Arrow drop is virtually non existent for 35 feet in to 20 feet. My understanding is that sub-yardage is strictly a function of sight parallax - the distance between the line of sight and the path of the arrow before the first point where they cross. For that to be accurate, you need to know the distance from the peep sight to the arrow. It's apples and oranges comparing how the program determines sub-yardage to any distance farther than what the program determines to be your High Pin - as shown in the Mark Refernce Chart/Sight In/HighPin field. If you look at the Ballistic Data Tab, the arrow flight graph shows where the arrows passes through your line of sight. Considering the differences in distance between 35 feet and 20 feet (the longest and shortest sub-yardage "Bunny" shots in field) are very small, the relative sight adjustment in terms of clicks - is huge. 

On my field set up, my mark for 15 yards is 15+0. At 35 feet that jumps to 13+0. At 20 feet, I'm at 26+3. And those marks are spot on. If I leave the the Sight Radius and Peep Height fields blank on the Equipment Tab it defaults to a Peep Height of .5" and a Sight Radius of 14" which results in a 35 foot mark of 11+7 and 20 foot of 6+7. Those marks wouldn't even be close.

If you look at the Ballistic Data Tab, the graph shows when and where the arrow will pass through your line of sight as it rises and falls. Which is why I believe these data tabs are not just frivolous extras, but useful tools to better understand how your setup responds to tuning changes. 

I absolutely agree with you that if you want accurate sight tapes past your High Pin, then it is as easy as you have described. Nothing wrong with that. Do you want to see how small changes will and won't affect your set up, then invest some time, read the manual and play around with the values and see how it would affect your rig. I'd rather spend 30 minutes with OT2 changing bow DL, DW, sight position, arrow length, point weight, etc . . . than hours making those changes on my bow, shooting, and recording results. I'll save that time for shooting and getting stabs, cam timing/sync, and DL just right.

This thread should probably be renamed OT2 now.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

bigHUN said:


> this is not needed if you have your all own measured distance values (distance and/or pin drop values)


Slays me when you get responses from the person that wrote the program...and you choose to ignore him and do it "your way."

(See post #4 for starters)....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

field14 said:


> Slays me when you get responses from the person that wrote the program...and you choose to ignore him and do it "your way." (See post #4 for starters)....


..........sorry, I didn't meant to conflict with anybody's ideas........
this week two of my bows were completely torn down all parts on floor, twisting/winding cables, I had to do it because in one setup I lost a control over Cam timing. So, shoot many hours, tweaking things, and I just didn't want to entertain with programs longer than printing sight tapes asap. I am not saying these programs won't make you shoot better, definitely shall take part of our education, and that shall never end


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Tried every method set forth here by the developer and bigHun, no go on the CBE Elite sight. Still between 5-10clicks off on several different Field ranges.


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## 60xar (Mar 30, 2006)

There is a sight tape maker on rcherz.com similar to Archers Mark. I haven't used it yet but plan on trying it soon. You can also print cut charts off of there.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

at this point it would be cheaper to buy a sight that is compatible with Archer's Mark, rather than buying more software. I have used the RCherz tapes, same same as all the others.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

Why don't you e-mail me a copy of the user record giving you problems. Address is on the website.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Will do! I know you work hard on that program and you want people to be able to use it effectively, I just can't figure it out


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

edgerat,

Which trajectory calc method are you using...Liston or Siacci ?


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Siacci. I haven't got my new bow's marks yet so I apologize for not getting the user record to you on that.


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## 60xar (Mar 30, 2006)

Do any of you have any issues with the speed portion of Archers Mark? My sight marks seems very close but it shows I am at 230fps when the chrono shows 255. As long as the marks are on I feel good with it but it seems weird. My measurements are all measured precisely with a caliper/scale so I know those are close.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I have the same problem with OT2 archers mark is right on and OT2 is way off I wish I could get archers mark to print out sight tape


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Interesting....I have both OT2 and Archer's Advantage AND I use a calculator based system...and ALL THREE agree with one another very, very, very closely and are pretty much dead on! Of course the calculator based system doesn't print a sight tape, haha...But I have made and excel spreadsheet that will give me the placard that I used for site marks as opposed to a sight tape. FOR ME, the site tape is only a backup. I even use the OT2 setting "numbers" on the placard and those Numbers are the ones etched into the vertical site bar, plus the correct number of clicks.
Garbage in = garbage out, and with both OT2 and AA, you MUST zero the knob and you must count the clicks.
When I do print a tape, however, I much prefer OT2 because it offers way more versatility as to how the site tape and also the cut chart are printed out (way more customization available).
"ProActive Archery" Chapters 32-36. Google "ProActive Archery"; you'll find it.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

FoggDogg said:


> Does anyone still use AA anymore?


All the time, and even AAPalm.3 weeks ago switched from X10 450's to X10 pro tour 420's. Got a mark at 20 and 60. Enter into palm. checked a few distances and printed out a sheet of marks from AA. Most are spot on, but a few are just 1 click off...no biggie. Shot a 559/80 the following weekend. Only program I use!!! If I'm on hills, I use my inclinometer and AAPalm for marks.


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## 60xar (Mar 30, 2006)

Maybe I am measuring something wrong then. I measure center if peep to my pin on my draw board the. With a caliper the top if arrow to center of peep with a square and caliper. Should this be measured to center if arrow? I thought that being you give it arrow diameter that is why you give it the diameter but maybe I am wrong


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

You measure peep height at full draw from the center of the peep to the center of the arrow. You measure your site radius at full draw from the center of the peep to the pin/center of lens.
In addition, if you are not counting those clicks that are there between numbers and "rounding things off", you are really throwing things out. Of course, if you are using site pins this is a bit more tedious than simply writing down the "numbers" getting that gap between pins is tedious work, but it sounds as if you do have the correct tools to do the measurements.
Check out the Help area in OT2 and use the ? marks on the screens; you'll learn a lot.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## 60xar (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks I will change my peep height measurement and see if its closer.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I HAVE ots pinwheel software and I can not get the right marks for axcell sight they are way off put in 20y and 80y mark and the system wount give me them to marks the same can some one help me archers mark works get for me put I need a sight tape


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

edgerat said:


> Tried every method set forth here by the developer and bigHun, no go on the CBE Elite sight. Still between 5-10clicks off on several different Field ranges.


That's odd...you shouldn't have to do anything special with the Elite. It has a scale. You just have to enter the values correctly. If your off on one field range your marks are off probably because of what you put in for a given yardage. 

If you put in that your 40 yd mark is 28+10 and it's actually 29+2 then all of your marks are going to be off. You will need to fine tune your marks by adjusting your needle to get things dialed in. But this also needs to e done with pre printed tapes and marks generated from any program. 


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

redman said:


> I HAVE ots pinwheel software and I can not get the right marks for axcell sight they are way off put in 20y and 80y mark and the system wount give me them to marks the same can some one help me archers mark works get for me put I need a sight tape


Unless you have a GREAT mark for 80 or your a top tier shooter I wouldn't use or recommend using an 80 mark for making tapes....I also wouldn't use a 20. Your margin for error and still hitting the dot or X for that matter is too large. I generally use 35-40 and 60-65 for my marks. 


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

redman said:


> I HAVE ots pinwheel software and I can not get the right marks for axcell sight they are way off put in 20y and 80y mark and the system wount give me them to marks the same can some one help me archers mark works get for me put I need a sight tape


When you set up your bow's profile in OT2, what are you using for velocity - a chronograph, calculated from sight marks, calculated from arrow drop, or program estimate?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

redman said:


> I HAVE ots pinwheel software and I can not get the right marks for axcell sight they are way off put in 20y and 80y mark and the system wount give me them to marks the same can some one help me archers mark works get for me put I need a sight tape


For what it is worth, I have two Axcel sites on two different bows, and also have used OT2 with Sur-loc sites...and never had a problem with tapes on any of them.
You definitely have got to select the correct bow site, however and make sure your "clicks" are matched up to that bow sight.

Are you sure you have selected the Axcel Site in the Equipment - Data base Selections Screen?
You should then have: 32x20 20 0.001562 1.0
Which are: Sight manufacturer/Model, Clicks per mark, and the click value. Those are correct above for the Axcel 2000; 3000; and 4500 and the Axcel FITA sites.
If you haven't selected Axcel and went with another site brand...therein lies your big problem to start with.

You need to set up your Equipment before you do anything else, and then, of course click on APPLY in each area. Once that is done, save your file to the user record so you don't lose it. Then, when you come back in, be sure to load your usr record! Many people make that mistake when they come back in to enter site marks and just start right in on the site marks screen. IF they aren't in the user record for their equipment then everything is out of kilter.

Don't know if you've done this or not, and not accusing...just trying to make sure that you did select Axcel site and not some other site in your equipment setup screen...
Axcel is above:

BUT:
Sur-Loc: 24 20 0. 0002075 1.0
Copper John: 32 20 0.00156 1.0
CBE Elite Target: 16 30 0.0020833 1.0

HUGE differences there, and again, if you don't have the correct site in your database..your site tape will not match your "numbers" no matter what because of this error on setup.

Hope this helps you. I've never had a bad tape as a result of the PROGRAMS, regardless of which one I've used...but I have had bad tapes as a result of me not checking that I was on the correct "page" before putting in those "numbers" from a sight setting session. Easy to do, easy to mess up, too.
Each screen and sub-part pretty much guides you through the process.
One more thing....about not using an 80 yard mark unless you are an expert....

IF you use the system and use 5 marks to enter in for sight settings (including those clicks!) you need to use "Site Scale Marks" in the upper left corner of "Determine Velocity" METHOD: which opens up the area to enter 5 sight settings. THen you enter as accurately as you have them FIVE site settings, click on the "Cross CHeck" box in the lower left area of site scale marks. You do not have to enter FIVE marks, but the more you do, the better the comparison for those sight settings.
After you have selected "Cross CHeck", you then go back to the upper left of the screen under Determine Velocity METHOD...and click on the "=" sign which will run the iteration to determine the velocity value based upon those 5 sight settings (or however many you have entered in). It is most interested to watch how this works and it will also show you after the comparison what the "speed" is based upon your entered site marks. If those are way off against each other, then you have some bad sight settings!!!
For example some time back when I was writing "ProActive Archery" I used three in one of my usr records: 30, 50, and 80 yards: I ran the cross check, and here are the velocity comparisons for those 3 marks as determined by OT2: 252.9; 253.46; 253.96...THOSE are some danged good site marks, and I"m no longer a top echelon shooter, so imagine how close they'll be with a shooter that is rock solid.

I do agree, however to either not use a 20 yarder, or if you do, then be darned careful with that sight setting. FOR ME...from the top of the x-ring to the bottom of the x-ring at 20 yards is 32 clicks on my Axcel site...that is a WHOLE NUMBER on the etched scale! NOT even barely close enough to generate a site tape from.
Now...check out "ProActive Archery" Chapters 32 & 33 for a better "system" for getting those hard to get sight scale values before going on to Chapters 34-36. 
Always remember, too, those sight settings are only as good as the shooter can hold, and the sight tape depends completely upon getting the data entered correctly and accurately into the programs....Garbage in = Garbage out.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Thanks for info will give OT2 a call


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

field14 said:


> IF you use the system and use 5 marks to enter in for sight settings (including those clicks!) you need to use "Site Scale Marks" in the upper left corner of "Determine Velocity" METHOD: which opens up the area to enter 5 sight settings. THen you enter as accurately as you have them FIVE site settings, click on the "Cross CHeck" box in the lower left area of site scale marks. You do not have to enter FIVE marks, but the more you do, the better the comparison for those sight settings.
> After you have selected "Cross CHeck", you then go back to the upper left of the screen under Determine Velocity METHOD...and click on the "=" sign which will run the iteration to determine the velocity value based upon those 5 sight settings (or however many you have entered in). It is most interested to watch how this works and it will also show you after the comparison what the "speed" is based upon your entered site marks. If those are way off against each other, then you have some bad sight settings!!!
> For example some time back when I was writing "ProActive Archery" I used three in one of my usr records: 30, 50, and 80 yards: I ran the cross check, and here are the velocity comparisons for those 3 marks as determined by OT2: 252.9; 253.46; 253.96...THOSE are some danged good site marks, and I"m no longer a top echelon shooter, so imagine how close they'll be with a shooter that is rock solid.
> 
> I do agree, however to either not use a 20 yarder, or if you do, then be darned careful with that sight setting. FOR ME...from the top of the x-ring to the bottom of the x-ring at 20 yards is 32 clicks on my Axcel site...that is a WHOLE NUMBER on the etched scale! NOT even barely close enough to generate a site tape from.


What Tom is describing here is probably the primary reason some OT2 users get sight tapes which are slightly off. If you use marks from 20 yards, you could probably add or subtract 10 clicks and you'd still be in the X-ring. Take your time and take your marks from 30 yards out. At further ranges, a click or three will make a difference and you can get much more precise marks. If it wasn't a steady shot - don't use it. If you aren't at the point where your hold is steady, shoot a group and use the middle - it won't be perfect, but it will be close.

To build on what Tom has pointed out, in OT2's Calibration/Sight Scale Marks there is a Cross Check feature. When you check that box, and have entered three or more marks, OT2 simulates a shot and compares mark 1 against mark 2, then mark 1 against mark 3, and so on . . . Look at the results, the velocities should all be close. If one isn't, un-check one of your marks and see if it was a "bad" mark. This will help you find an inaccurate mark which needs to be eliminated or re-shot.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Brown Hornet said:


> That's odd...you shouldn't have to do anything special with the Elite. It has a scale. You just have to enter the values correctly. If your off on one field range your marks are off probably because of what you put in for a given yardage.
> 
> If you put in that your 40 yd mark is 28+10 and it's actually 29+2 then all of your marks are going to be off. You will need to fine tune your marks by adjusting your needle to get things dialed in. But this also needs to e done with pre printed tapes and marks generated from any program.
> 
> ...


A combination of things seems to have cured my ails in Archer's Mark. For whatever reason, my pro-shooter buddy figured out that if you run the peep-pin at 30" and the peep height at 3", and input your actual arrow weight, and diameter, it will get you a pretty reliable set of marks. It also spits out a pretty close velocity, not that I care about that. I had a set of arrows that I was trying a heavy 3deg helical on and they acted like a parachute out past 60y. Those were the only arrows I had at the time for field and I have since tossed them and gone back to a more conventional 2deg offset. I set up a new Dom3D Max yesterday and plugged in my 20 and 50, and 30" and 3" along with everything else and was dead bang in the middle at 88 and 93y(bet with the wife) as well as everything from 6y on out. Now to transfer that info to OT2 to get the same set of numbers and I should be good. I didn't expect this much of a learning curve to getting these programs to work but, a couple of dedicated pro shooters that have been around a while walked me through it. It was not a plug and play thing for me, GIGO is true but, when you put in hard numbers that you have, and marks that you know are on, it is really frustrating to see the shot break in the middle and the arrow sail low or hit high or whatever. 
Isaac


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## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

I guess I don't understand how putting in 30" and 3" vs your actual specs would give you accurate results. I'm not saying it wouldn't I just don't know why it would work.
DFA


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

From looking at, and realize I am about the worst person to ask about mathematics, is the peep to pin number combined with your marks and the program can spit out velocity, that velocity is very close to what my bow and my buddies bow shoots, right around 270fps for our field arrows. Just something he had happened to hit on from many many hours spent tinkering with these programs.


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## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

I beleive the peep to pin and peep to arrow numbers are tied into the equation to provide the speed and correct sight mark numbers. I'm going to try the 30" and 3" as you sugest and see what happens.
DFA


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## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

Just tried it on Archer's Mark. It reduced my speed from 292 to 280. My chrono says 259fps. 
DFA


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

AA, as well as the others will all give perfect results, but it requires perfect input. A simple divider with a short period of experimentation will provide a perfect sight tape with any program and any sight. It totally escapes me why problems exist for some???


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

*Archery Software*



DFA said:


> I beleive the peep to pin and peep to arrow numbers are tied into the equation to provide the speed and correct sight mark numbers. I'm going to try the 30" and 3" as you sugest and see what happens.
> DFA


In OT2 (and I suspect in any archery software) the Sight Radius (Peep to Pin) and Peep Height measurements are used to calculate sub-yardage marks. These are the marks for printed in the sight tape footer for 20 feet, 25 feet, 30 feet, 33 feet, and 35 feet. Remember, these are the shots where the arrow is still rising in it's flight curve and has not yet passed through the shooters line of sight. The program needs to know the offset (parallax) from the line of sight to the center arrow shaft. It is not used to calculate velocity. 

What matters most is determining the arrow velocity. OT2 gives several options to determine that speed; a program estimation based on the bow, DL, DW, and arrow weight, from a chronograph, from arrow drop based on two distances, from your known marks. They are all different roads to the same place - arrow speed. If you use one of these methods, you'll probably be in the neighborhood of the correct speed. The next step is creeping into a precise speed. This is a step a number of people seem to be skipping. Some might be close enough and others who find the marks are a bit off, then start from scratch. 

Here's my suggestion. Once you get close, just manually change the velocity by 1 fps and see if it moves your marks in the right direction. If you find you are hitting your known 30y and 40y marks, but are off on your 50y - then recheck your 50y mark. The arrow doesn't pick up speed, or suddenly decelerate. It's probably your mark _or_ you are making some subtle form change that affects the point of impact. 

A second suggestion. As mentioned by others in this thread, don't use a 20 yard mark. I know why so many do, it's because at 20 yards you feel you are most consistent. And you are. But, as Tom (field14) illustrated by example, you are so close to your target that you could move your sight up or down 10 clicks and still be in the dot of Vegas 3 spot or NFAA 5 spot target. Even if you are shooting as a strip of 1" tape, you can still squeeze a few clicks in up or down and your arrow (compound bow) will still be in, or mostly on, the tape. 

Shoot at 1" tape a 30 yards. Use only clean shots, or the average of 3 pretty good shots. Disregard outliers even if it splits the tape. Then do it at 50 yards. Your groups will be bigger. That's fine. Just use the average of three good shots. 

With a ballpark velocity and two good marks, you will be able to creep into a set of sight marks that will be as accurate _as you can shoot_. If you've got OT2, just use the spread feature. It'll take your speed and marks and go 10 steps up or down in increments as small as .1 fps. Alternatively, take your Mark Reference Chart at your beginning velocity, print it, and just go back and add or subtract 1 fps and see how the marks change. Keep adding/subtracting until you get a Mark Reference Card that matches your two known marks.

As to those who have stumbled upon a recipe not based on velocity and marks that work, you probably have some variable errors that by luck canceled each other out. Nothing wrong with getting lucky, but I wouldn't rely on it as a system or protocol to consistently get accurate marks for different bows or when changes are made.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The chrono method is NOT the most recommended choice to use in either AA or OT2 for getting decent site marks. _In fact both of them recommend that you do NOT use the chronnie method for accurate site tapes_.Your personal chronnie, or even the one at the shop is obviously NOT "calibrated" to an s-1 standard, so it isn't going to give you very accurate results. However, in a pinch, you can enter this to get you a site tape that at least will get you on the target face and then you can get more accurate results. I would find this a waste of time, but others may want to use it.

Again, as I've mentioned and was mentioned above...don't shoot at "circles" or the target face for "accurate" site marks. Use a horizontal tape across the target face at a width that you can hold on without tensing up. Use only the good shots and toss the ringers...and use the "clicks", too. For 30-40 yards I use a 3/4" tape on good days, or a 1" wide tape when I'm not holding so well. For the longer yardages, 1 1/2" or 2" wide tape works for me. I used to be better than this, but not anymore.
You shoot until all your good arrows are solidly on that tape. Myself, I sited in so that all the arrows were on the upper half of the tape, because my tendencies were to shoot low when I tired. Each shooter has to make their own decisions.

Just remember, similar to what rsw said above..."AA, as well as the others will all give perfect results, but it requires perfect input. A simple divider with a short period of experimentation will provide a perfect sight tape with any program and any sight. It totally escapes me why problems exist for some??? "

The problems come in when people try to do things "their way" or the easy way...and/or worse yet, start to use all sorts of "corrections" and get fancy by messing with the programs...when the messing really should be with their form and also not trying to get the system to give you better results than what you are plugging into the system. The "system" is already BETTER than you are, ha.

I've yet to have to use any of the "fancy correction factors" on either program; I'm simply very careful about my measurements, do NOT trust any chronnie method, and painstakenly shoot in those site marks, using the scribed numbers on the vertical bar, making sure I have the correct site selected, and counting those clicks.
Sure it takes time, but a rushed site tape is worse than a rushed shot...but both give the same result...a MISS.

field14


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Is ot2 a member on archery talk


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

redman said:


> Is ot2 a member on archery talk


Absolutely. He has posted several things on this thread alone...but as usual...nobody seems to listen to him! [email protected] is his AT Handle...Check page #1, along with other posts.

I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this early in this thread, Redman....

The other thing is apparently few people even check out the help portion of AA or OT2 to get the "straight skinny" but rather go out and experiment on their own making this and that "adjustment" and when that doesn't work...it is the program's fault in not being "accurate."

I've never, ever had to make any fancy adjustments to anything in AA or OT2 to get accurate site tapes. Accurate measurements and accurate "numbers" entered in are all it takes, and NEVER using the chronograph method and expect decent results.
In addition, Larry Clague is a reviewer of my book, _"ProActive Archery"_....so he obviously paid a LOT of attention to the Chapter in my book that deals with OT2...and it passed his muster....so..... Google _"ProActive Archery"_; you'll find it easily. The Chapters on AA and OT2 have detailed "print screens" of how to accurately get proper site tapes.... Of course, that accuracy is only as good as YOU, the shooter's capabilities in getting good numbers to enter into the programs in the first place.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

All this talk is making my head spin. Maybe I'm missing something but I use AA and shoot a CBE sight. I set mine up like so. Enter all the data for the arrow, enter the data for the measurements sight to peep etc. I then shoot my bow through a chronograph. Next I enter in numbers randomly with distances of 20 and 80 yards until my speed on AA shows the same as my chronograph. I can do the above with any scale setting entered. I then print out my sight tape which is out to 100 yards in one yard increments. Been doing it this way for years and have never had any issues. My sight tapes are always dead on. Never understood using a scale. After all there isn't anybody who can hold better than half a yard. Those who have AA try this before you tell me I'm wrong.


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