# Judging yardage



## Cody_Groce30X (Dec 11, 2014)

After returning to archery from a few years off, I am struggling with judging my yardage. Being a successful hunter and competition archer I thought it would be like riding a bike. Boy was I wrong, what are some things that you guys use to judge . I know practice is the best, just curious what you guys use to help if your not exactly sure of yourself. Example randy ulmers flipping the 20 yard pole, thanks guys can't wait to hear your suggestions!


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## Kenro287 (Feb 12, 2014)

I take my range finder to work with me. I'll randomly stop look at something guess the yardage, then check with my range finder how close I am.


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## yeroc (Jan 11, 2007)

for me i find 20 yds fairly easy then after that 20 i find 10yds after that and so on.it works for me


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Elite_Bowhunter said:


> After returning to archery from a few years off, I am struggling with judging my yardage. Being a successful hunter and competition archer I thought it would be like riding a bike. Boy was I wrong, what are some things that you guys use to judge . I know practice is the best, just curious what you guys use to help if your not exactly sure of yourself. Example randy ulmers flipping the 20 yard pole, thanks guys can't wait to hear your suggestions!


I'm of the belief that judging yardage isn't the real problem in 3D misses. It's actually a lack of confidence in the estimate causing a bad shot. If you make an estimate and make a good shot the arrow will hit where it hits, high or low if the estimate is off. In very short order the brain will recognize the error and make better estimates as you go... if you continue making good shots. If you make bad shots and blame the estimate you will never improve. My advise is to make the estimate, set your sight and forget about it. Then make the best shot you are capable of. All will turn out just fine.


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## Cody_Groce30X (Dec 11, 2014)

All great advice! Ep I see what you are saying, I will apply this next time and see how it works. Maybe I should just have fun with it and all will fall into place!


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

I can say from experience sometimes my yardage estimation is way way off! However, I shoot in such a manner that it is usually not a huge deal (aiming at top line of asa 12 ring) unless I am off by several yards. What I do is find my 20, and add 10 and so on to get my estimate. Example of 34 yards. That tree looks 20 yards. That tree is 10 yards beyond my 20yard tree. the target is 4 yards beyond that tree. Padgett has went into detail in this subject before, surely he will be on soon to help you further.


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## strandbowhunter (Jan 6, 2010)

I was really struggling early in the 3d season with my judging also. I was trying to find my 20yd mark and I would be 3-4 yds hot or short every time. So I went back too finding my 10yd mark and flipping it to the target and my scores have increased in the past few weeks. That's just what I had to do hope it helps. 

P.S. don't worry it will get better 

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Thread on 3d forum about this. And use search for yardage some good stuff all ready here.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think there's a little element of both, having trust in your estimation and making a good shot. one actually reinforces and supports the other. the ironic aspect, is that if the "good shot is established", but accurate estimation is not, the shot will still be off. the only difference is that you can essentially eliminate one source of the miss, if you know you are shooting well. if the conditions are reversed, there is still a chance of hitting the mark, provided the "good shot" is occasionally made.
flipping the 20 yard pole, is exactly how I got to be known, in my club as, "the human range finder". a lot of that comes from my 30+ years in construction, but as I got started shooting 3d, it was the basis of the method I used to establish my yardage estimating.


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## Cody_Groce30X (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks fellas. I done some shooting today and I gotta say it was the best I have shot in a while. Didn't shoot much wanted to leave it on a good note. I have been trying everything you guys have talked about, Im feeling pretty confident for the tournament this Sunday. thanks again and wish me luck!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, I'll wish you luck. You ought to shoot with me. Yeah, I tell all in my group what the distance is. I keep it pretty simple, either 19 1/2 yards or 37 1/2 yards


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I'd go with 19 1/2 as it's an easier shot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Note to self; Confuse EPLC. Tell him it's 23 yards, 6 inches  

I ain't joking. Yep, I happily tell people how far it is. So we get going and everyone is telling anywhere from 12 yards to 43 1/2 yards. So me a A. were discussing perhaps we needed 3 inches more and his little girl ups and calls us liars. Can you imagine that? 
D.H. is the courteous one of our group. Yep, he'll tell the group behind us that if they're tired of shooting 12s they can join us


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## Cody_Groce30X (Dec 11, 2014)

Haha that's good stuff... Bet you finish on top right regular in ur group hahaha


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, sometimes. If we had taped some of our excursions Jeff Foxworthy would have paid dearly for them. "Hey, that's cheating, tying your right shot tighter before the shot." And some of those just plain do it all wrong. I mean screaming out; "God!" after the shot. Hey, you pray before the shot, not after and God isn't deaf so you don't have to scream."


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

As suggested above, shoot your number with confidence. Or, once you've got a number, shoot it like its perfect. But how to get confident in your number? Sometimes the way our personality is wired drive the best judging process. Some folks are very intuitive and can use the "just look at it and get a number approach". Or, start narrowing down the distance, ie. "It's less than 40 but more than 30, less than 38 but more than 33" etc until you get a range that you can live with. Some need a more technical process like flipping 10 to the target or going from the target to the stake in 10 yard increments. And, there are more ways to discover. OP, have you considered how your personality influences your judging? And, good luck "because real men don't shoot known." LOL.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, I know what 20 yards is. Walked it, ranged it, studied it. 6 of my steps equals 5 yards. 20 yards I can break down to 10 and 10 I can break down to 5 and 5 I can break down in yards. So waiting for the wife doing her shopping every car, ever lamp post gets judged. I'll walk or range finder in the car I use it. Brain working well I can get within yard. I find something in the lane that I believe is 20 yards and work my way to the target. Number found, I judge back from the target and numbers close I'll go with the longer and I aim dead center. Numbers matching I'll go for the ASA lower 12, but even then I'll stay to the strong sides of the 12 ring (better a 10 than a 8 or worse). I like judging from both sides of the lane to give that little extra look in judging. I also take in consideration the size of the 3D target. Okay, it doesn't take much time once you get it in your head.
For ASA, Super Senior class, 40 yards max. For NFAA Silver Senior is 45 yards max. I keep it in mind. 
Range management. Know your maximum distance dead on shot and what target/lighting will give you that. A coyote at 35 yards might be easier than another coyote at 30 yards.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Over the last few years I have competed in a few hundred 3d shoots and learning to be confident in where you set your sight is something that I mastered about 1.5 years ago and it is a very important thing to do because it takes away a lot of stress as you try and aim at the 12 ring. If you are not 100 % committed to the yardage that you chose then you will have trouble with making a clean shot.

With that said I totally got my butt kicked by the semi pro ranges this weekend because I simply couldn't see the truth! For example I remember shooting a target yesterday for 34 yards and I shot out the bottom for a 8, I actually thought that the target was 33 yards and I added the extra yard and shot it for 34 to hit the top of the 12 ring or slightly high for a nice safe 10 but the problem is that when I stepped it off it was at least 37 or maybe 37.5 yards. I got back to the stake and stood there and looked at it and it still looked like it was 33 yards.

For me I don't own a range of asa targets so attending a couple of asa tournaments is where I get to see them and begin getting a feel for target size and distance. I really do see the difference in the guys that drop the money on a range and set it up at home and work on their target size when I shoot with them, it is the final key to being really solid shot after shot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last year I have a friend who had about 16 targets that he put up in his yard and every wednesday I drove about 40 minutes and we shot for a couple hours on his little course usually making it around twice, I easily won out of open a within the first 4 tournaments and got on the podium and shot in the final group at the classic for shooter of the year.

In my area we only have one tournament with makenzie targets and they don't have all the ones on the national courses and the shoot only happens basically once a month so for me the wednesday night shooting with my buddy is a huge thing for seeing the targets. To me the difference between me and the guys in my classes that are better than me is that they are seeing the targets more than one day a week.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> 1.If you are not 100 % committed to the yardage that you chose then you will have trouble with making a clean shot.
> 
> 2. For me I don't own a range of asa targets so attending a couple of asa tournaments is where I get to see them and begin getting a feel for target size and distance. I really do see the difference in the guys that drop the money on a range and set it up at home and work on their target size when I shoot with them, it is the final key to being really solid shot after shot.


1. This could not be a truer statement. As I mentioned early on in this thread, trust in your estimate is critical to not only making a good shot, but also in getting the mind adjusted to the course and animals you are shooting. 
2. This is especially true when shooting unfamiliar animals and/or courses. If you don't just trust your estimation your brain will never make the adjustments needed to get it right.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last summer we did the entire superman week at metropolis and then I made it to my buddies house every week for the wednesday night asa target shooting and we shot a bunch of local tournaments and by the time I went to the asa classic I was seeing the targets really nicely. About a week or two after the asa classic I went with Dshort to a couple local end of year tournaments and both of us were within a yard on every target for the two shoots that we attended and it was a sweet feeling. Of course the season ended as bow season began and almost 5 months of no makenzie targets has allowed that feeling to leave and we are stuck ground judging again.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Padgett said:


> Last summer we did the entire superman week at metropolis and then I made it to my buddies house every week for the wednesday night asa target shooting and we shot a bunch of local tournaments and by the time I went to the asa classic I was seeing the targets really nicely. About a week or two after the asa classic I went with Dshort to a couple local end of year tournaments and both of us were within a yard on every target for the two shoots that we attended and it was a sweet feeling. *Of course the season ended as bow season began and almost 5 months of no makenzie targets has allowed that feeling to leave and we are stuck ground judging again*.


Talk to me about this. I'm a long time field shooter who's dipping his toe into 3D this year. Aside from the obvious judging across a valley issue, what's wrong with ground judging? As you've pointed out, if you're reliant on knowing/seeing the size of the target to be accurate, why is that the preferred method? You either have to shoot A LOT of 3D shoots or drop $5,000 on targets to scatter all over your yard.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I shot 3d for a few years starting in 2007 and I finally ran into a really good semi pro shooter and he was the first person that told me that ground judging shouldn't be the only method of guessing distance and he explained to me that he could just look at a target and guess the distance within a yard every time. I totally called BS on that claim and thought that he was just bragging or something. He said that you could think of the process as taking a mental picture of a large alert deer at every yard from 20 to 50 yards and you just flipped through those pictures mentally until you found the right one.

Last summer probably after metropolis I actually began doing this as my primary method and ground judging was a check to compare and then make a final decision along with all the other little tricks. For me i didn't really have all these mental pictures like my buddy explained it to me but basically I could walk up to a shooting stake and just take a look at the target and I could tell that it was 42 yards or 47 yards and I was within a yard every stinking time. In fact I aim directly at 12 rings so I need to be a little long on my guess and I got to the point where it was calibrated into my brain so if the target was 42 yards actually I would guess by first look the target being 42.5 or 43 yards.

This is why when you talk to tim gillingham and levi you will hear them mention having your own range and working on judging the targets by looking at them. I have walked around with range finders hundreds of times ranging trees and rocks and bbq grills and cars and mail boxes and in the end it helps but without a range you just can't polish off your guess.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Judging can take years....maybe the 10,000 hour rule applies well.

Or, you could be more deliberate and learn WHY and HOW you misjudge targets. You could also learn methods that prevent being tricked and that increase precision in your judging from a coach who has taught many successful 3d'ers.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Well damn if that ain't de-motivating as all hell (not meant as a poke at either of you).


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If I can get the yardage down I am expecting to do well on dots.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> Well damn if that ain't de-motivating as all hell (not meant as a poke at either of you).


It shouldn't be... I simply meant to say there is a hard way and an easier way. Mass exposure....trial and error.... Or a more deliberate approach to ramp up much, much quicker. 

How good do you want to be?


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> It shouldn't be... I simply meant to say there is a hard way and an easier way. Mass exposure....trial and error.... Or a more deliberate approach to ramp up much, much quicker.
> 
> How good do you want to be?


I doubt any of us want to sink five grand into targets or invest 10,000 hours if there's a smarter way of going about it. In the few times I've shot 3D, I've always ground judged. I haven't done this enough to know how or why I've misjudged targets, so I'd love to hear your thoughts.

ETA: I didn't answer your question! I want to win.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm not going to tell you exposure to targets, and time, are not required.

Dan Hart teaches judging. He teaches you new methods (ground and target judging), teaches you to understand how/why you misjudge when you do so you can learn more quickly from the exposures you do have and with practice you recognize the factors before they affect you.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Padgett said:


> Over the last few years I have competed in a few hundred 3d shoots and learning to be confident in where you set your sight is something that I mastered about 1.5 years ago and it is a very important thing to do because it takes away a lot of stress as you try and aim at the 12 ring. If you are not 100 % committed to the yardage that you chose then you will have trouble with making a clean shot.
> 
> With that said I totally got my butt kicked by the semi pro ranges this weekend because I simply couldn't see the truth! For example I remember shooting a target yesterday for 34 yards and I shot out the bottom for a 8, I actually thought that the target was 33 yards and I added the extra yard and shot it for 34 to hit the top of the 12 ring or slightly high for a nice safe 10 but the problem is that* when I stepped it off* it was at least 37 or maybe 37.5 yards. I got back to the stake and stood there and looked at it and it still looked like it was 33 yards.
> 
> For me I don't own a range of asa targets so attending a couple of asa tournaments is where I get to see them and begin getting a feel for target size and distance. I really do see the difference in the guys that drop the money on a range and set it up at home and work on their target size when I shoot with them, it is the final key to being really solid shot after shot.


Stepping off targets is illegal in ASA...probably others too...:wink:


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

jim p said:


> If I can get the yardage down I am expecting to do well on dots.


Just don't get caught steppin' off the yardage! :whip2:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am good and I want to be better, these are the areas that I think a 3d shooter has to address:

1. equipment

2. shooting form

3. shooting execution

4. judging yardage

5. course management

6. asa game

For me being a 4th year asa shooter I have attacked all 6 of these areas individually and what I have learned to win out of open a and earn the right to battle and shoot in the semi pro class are things that I offer to anyone anytime they ask and anyone that has shot with or traveled or been around me knows this to be true. There will never be tricks up my sleeve that I have paid for from some so called coach that I use to win and keep to myself. I want to win on a even playing field where I beat my competitors shooting my best and to me that takes a lot of guts that most people don't have.

The fact that we have started these yardage judging threads and some of the top 3d shooters in the world don't give a list of tricks or methods if they actually exist is simply pathetic, there is no pride in believing that you have knowledge that only you and the entitled are allowed to have and win. There is pride in being honest and just working hard to master the methods that are out there and simply being better.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Padgett, if that is a jab at me or my post, you might want to rethink it. I'm not going to too my own horn.... And I'm also not going to give what is not mine to give. 

I can't believe you'd stoop to say that paying for coaching is a bad thing....or imply that a coached shooter's success is of less value than a non-coached shooter's.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> Stepping off targets is illegal in ASA...probably others too...:wink:


Chuck, walking off the target from the target to the stake ain't illegal...as long as you keep it to yourself. But then I've been known to the tell the next group what the distance is, 37 1/2 yards


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> Padgett, if that is a jab at me or my post, you might want to rethink it. I'm not going to too my own horn.... And I'm also not going to give what is not mine to give.
> 
> I can't believe you'd stoop to say that paying for coaching is a bad thing....or imply that a coached shooter's success is of less value than a non-coached shooter's.


I'm with you, Tony. Using a shooting coach is okay, so? And I know one that went to Judging Coach. That man could tell to the yard and me checking him with a range finder. Just outstanding...


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Padgett said:


> I am good and I want to be better, these are the areas that I think a 3d shooter has to address:
> 
> 1. equipment
> 
> ...


sorry padgett. if you think some pros don't have tricks that they don't talk about, you really need to think again. Have you read the USA archery rule book. Particularly the field section? Did you know there is a whole day that is unmarked distance? Did you know they tell you how to judge distance in there? Maybe they don't talk about their tricks because thats how they make their living. 

Also, having a coach that has "been there," done well, and can teach you what you aren't seeing, or why you are seeing something some way is INVALUABLE! 
Theres more than one way to skin a cat...just sayin


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I know that some our upper level shooters are not willing to tell us their little secrets and it irritates me to death that they are so stinking weak minded, I personally believe in hard work and that the pro shooters that are really good have put in the hard work to get to their level. I think that you could totally show 99% of the people out there every trick or method and they simply can't and will not ever show up to vegas and make the shoot down or smoke levi morgan at a asa. The fact that any shooter walks around seeing a shooter struggling with their hinge shooting or judging and they keep methods to themselves is absolutely stinking pathetic and I will absolutely never be that person.

A good coach is a good coach because he has the ability to look at his player and lead that player in a positive direction and teach the solid methods that are proven and yeah as time goes by there are going to be a few new tweeks to the standard methods that a coach may discover and for a while showing his players those new thoughts might give his players a advantage.

If I ever get to the point where I become a paid coach it will not be because I have a secret bag of tricks that you can come to my seminar and pay $375 dollars to get them, it will be because spending the weekend with me where I look at your shooting and spend some time getting to know you and seeing the things that you need to get rid of in your mind and form and execution that you will be paying for.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just getting the info is only one key, I see this with my buddy Ken. He talks to me on the phone and I email him and he has been to my website where all my archery articles on shooting are located and a month or two will go by where I hear him struggle with things and we talk but until he shows up to my house or a 3d tournament and actually spends a couple days with me things don't really take affect. But when i can spend those two days with him and actually work on ranging or firing his hinge or his shooting form or tuning then by the end of the weekend all the things we talked about on the phone and in emails starts taking affect.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This weekend for example even though we had many short shots scattered through out the two courses for the weekend I did get to use one method for shooting one certain type of shot and it worked every time but once.

"DANG, THATS MY MAX"

This was my first shoot in semi pro and I knew that I would see a good number of targets right at my max of 50 yards, one way to deal with them is to learn how to walk up and with your first glance just notice that YEP this one is out there and a max yardage shot. So on these I simply set my sight to 50 yards and I aimed directly at the 12 ring and shot the shot. 

Now why does this work because if the target is that far it is obvious that it isn't 40 yards and that it is probably 47.5 or 48 or 49 or 50 yards and by setting your sight to 50 yards and aiming directly at the lower 12 ring your are going to hit the 12 if it is 50 yards and if it is 49 or 48 or 47.5 you are going to progressively hit above the 12 ring in the 10 ring for a safe 10 on your max yardage shot.

It worked everytime for the weekend on all my max yardage type shots except for a coyote on the first day and it got me out the bottom because I talked myself out of shooting it for 50 yards because the coyote is so small that I thought it might look farther than it really was so I didn't want to shoot over the top for a zero. I shot it for 49 yards and held dead on the 12 ring and I hit 2 inches low for a 5 straight under the 12 ring.

This little method was something I had been really looking forward to using for two years, in open a and open b it really didn't work because we had a 45 yard max but because we shot on the other course than the semi pro shooters there could and many times were targets that were well beyond 45 yards so you couldn't see a max target and just set your sight on 45 and be safe. I had personally shot a zero and seen many other shooters over the three years shoot zeros out the bottom because of shots out to 50 yards on a 45 yard max course.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Padgett, I'd encourage you to withhold judgment based solely on what you see on AT. Helping archers and posting things on AT are not synonymous or necessarily proportionate. 

If a shooter wants help, it is available.... And most that REALLY want help, don't stop (or maybe even start) looking on AT.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Padgett said:


> This weekend for example even though we had many short shots scattered through out the two courses for the weekend I did get to use one method for shooting one certain type of shot and it worked every time but once.
> 
> "DANG, THATS MY MAX"
> 
> ...


This got me to thinking.... I'm in IBO country, so it's a bit different, but are we stressing on judging a bit too much? Shouldn't this be more of a "sight and target management' process?

My setup is shooting 306fps. In OT2, I can analyze the trajectory and see that from 30 - 40 my arrow is dropping 6.61". Is there a table showing the size of every 10 and 11 ring, per target type? I know the 11 is supposed to be ~25% of the 10 ring. 

In the above example, why would I ever want to set my sight on 50? Setting it to 50 runs me a higher risk of shooting out the top of the 11. If I set it to 49, that gives me 1yd to play with cold, but it gives me about 3 yards hot. So essentially setting my sight at 49 covers me from 47-50. it's essentially hedging my bet that it's 50 max.

47 = +1.75"
48 = +0.90"
49 = 0.00"
50 = -0.94"


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Padget, I am a nobody, but In my opinion I will offer up this. (no disrespect intended at all, just discussion not intended to hijack Or step on anyone's toes)
Pro archers may not others help due to a couple things.
Here is my reasoning: Top level Pro shooters or Top Level athletes in any sport got the way they are due to intense training, good coaching, good equipment, and repeated good performance. (equipment and themselves)

Top 3d or target archers are just that Top Archers. There are some that are not coaches, but some can never be coaches, some are, or were. They are all shooters. They have figured out what works for them and what does not work. They have spent the time, effort and thousands of shots at 3d targets, NFAA field events, or spots, the $ going to shoots, and taken their lumps and gotten they bows handed to them along the way (as in getting beaten badly). One can see this in just about any single person performance aspect sport. 
That said, I figure that some don't really have the time or want to spend the time helping others as this will take time away from themselves and what they are continually working on. This also comes down to personality. Some people's personalities are not suited for being instructors. They can feel it, they can do, they an see it, it but they just can't teach it, it's just not in their personality type. 

Also people learn in different ways. Remember the: Thinker, Doer, feeler concept of personalities. Some archers are are thinkers and doers. They think about something they are told or were instructed, and then simply do it. 
There are others that are feeler/ doers, you need to complete a task or '"feel" the task or what is going on and to grasp the concept. 

Then there is the factor of "job security". Top-level archery shooters probably didn't get to where they are by giving away all the secrets or "nuggets of Knowledge Gold" along the way. In a sense "Kings don't get to be Kings by giving out the gold".
Is this a selfish personality trait? possibly, is this irritating to some people, possibly. Is it understandable that a top-level 3d archery shooter will keep some of the gold nuggets to themselves. Definitely! 

Then there's the part of humility. Just in the videos and things that you see on the Internet, or tournament footage, I see these top-level shooters as being pretty humble people. Kind of quiet in the way and maybe even a bit introverted. But definitely holding a wealth of knowledge and ability that is just oozing out in the way they shoot. 

Then there are guys like Chance, Bowjunky, Levi, REO, GRiv, and the TAW, and a few other pro shooters that put out short video clips on you tube, answer questions to actually help others. 

Help IS out there, just like TMorelli said. Sometimes it's not just sitting out there blaring loudly for all to see. You gotta hunt for it, seeking out, wade through it, view it, listen to it, learned it, feel it, apply it then DO IT. 

Another thing we have to remember is AT this kind of like a sponge with the Scotch Brite on the other side. It seems pretty soft and squishy on the outside, but once you get down and in there's pretty abrasive at times. There has been a lot of comments on why more PRO SHooters, don't post in here, or used to but don't now. It only take so many times getting the "Scotch Brite treatment" that you just kind of stay away. I believe most are willing to help but just don't on these social media things because there's always somebody out there to say something different or pooh-pooh on what they say. We see it all the time in here, this particular thread and many others are not apart from that. 

Anyway enough of my Im just a nobody, backyard champion shooter Rambling. One who has aspirations of going to Redding and shooting 3d with and around the top-level pros, while being a fly on the wall and learning something. 

OH,, and Padget, Thank You *AND* all the others, for offering up your insight, experience and tips for others. 

Kevin


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

At the end of the day I have a few good years left in me to keep progressing and I have won my self into semi pro and I would love to get better and win into the pro class and if and when that happens I will still share every little bit of information that i have used to get there with archery talk. I am someone who owes a lot to archery talk because it is what has gotten me to the level that I am at right now and I am not going to turn my back on it just so that i can walk around the course with some secret tricks.

I actually don't think there are any tricks other than the ones that I have already listed out in that yardage thread in the 3d forum, I think those methods or little tricks along with a full set of targets set up in your yard where you can shoot and see them at a variety of distances hundreds of days through out the year is the key to becoming a really good yardage guy. Along with becoming a asa shooter, spending one weekend a year where you show up on friday morning and spend three days in a row on practice ranges and scoring ranges and getting three days of looks at targets and shooting at low back 12 rings teaches you tons of the asa 3d game that you simply don't get at a local shoot.

With that said guess what I don't have? A stinking full range of stinking targets. What is cool though is that I have learned the asa game pretty good and once I get to the point financially where I can afford a range I may make a big jump within months of getting it which is really freaking exciting.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Padgett said:


> I actually don't think there are any tricks other than the ones that I have already listed out in that yardage thread in the 3d forum....


I bet you thought you knew everything you'd ever need to know in high school....And looking back, I bet you're glad you didn't stop learning when you thought you had all the answers. 

I've never seen any judging info posted on AT that was above elementary. There is much more to understanding how/why/when your basic methods don't produce the desired results and overcoming it....before you give up the points.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In august when my best season of asa ended and I was excited for my wife to win her election as prosecutor after spending around 15,000 dollars on our election so that we could continue earning her 133,000 dollar salary and as soon as we recovered from the sticker shock of running a election I had talked to her about getting a range so that I could have one in my back yard and make shooting lanes on my 5 acres. Well we got beat and we have lost her salary and now I had to sell a set of my stabs to even go to ft benning and enjoy my weekend shooting. So not only is it going to be a while before I have the money to come to shoots it is going to be a while before I buy a range or drop a few hundred dollars for some coach to tell me the things that apparently you and other people already know and have no intentions of sharing.

The fact that you are claiming to have all the knowledge and that you have read the threads that we are trying to use to actually get better and you are posting on here knowing that you have things that could help a fellow archer and you are openly admitting that you are not going to share any of the good stuff because you are trying to win says tons about who you really are. My mom and dad raised me to be a man and work hard and again I refuse to walk around a asa tournament or a local tournament and pretend to be somebody I am not and I certainly will not withhold information that might help me guess a target at 43 yards. 

The beautiful thing about being human is you can totally find people just like yourself that you can hang around and find comfort in your choices weather you are on the good side or the bad side. 

Now, just to be clear on where I stand on this whole subject. I am a average shooter that has been learning to shoot competitively since 2007 and I have never had a coach and I only have access to a couple good shooters in my area on a very limited basis, I have used archery talk to mold my thoughts starting with a couple years of lurking and then joining in 2010 and in the beginning was a sponge just trying to get a grasp on things and learn the methods being thrown around such as back tension or floating and yardage judging. I have progressed and have been fortunate enough to win out of some classes and move on to a higher level and can actually be more a leader in the discussions rather than just a sponge. This year even though things have slowed down personally as far as learning because I am on top of things I did learn some really good stuff from n7709k especially using a soft hand when shooting a hinge. 

I can still remember my first asa I got lucky and Hopkins was my pro and I was excited to have him because I knew he was a champion, I asked him a few questions about yardage and his response was I am probably the best in the world at it and always have been and don't really know why. I'm just good. Last year I was ranging targets after the team shoot at one of the asa tournaments and there were lots of pro shooters around doing the same thing and I walked up and heard him telling one of the pro women how he judged targets and from about 10 ft I just stood and listened and he went through ground judging and some other things that I had heard many times and i could tell he didn't like the fact that I was standing there. Personally I hope I can win out of semi pro but if I don't I just don't want to be this kind of person, I don't know what else to say.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

You don't seem to grasp the difference between posting on AT and helping archers. 

You know how I spent my weekend before Ft Benning? Guess what... It wasn't judging on my course.... It was helping coach 7 archers who asked. I didn't get a dime. 

Know how I spent the two weekends before that?... Inviting two groups of archers to my range for practice. In each case, I spent my time helping them get better.... Judging, shot execution, course management, etc. Again, I didn't take a dime...not even for wear and tear on my targets.

So, bottom line here, get off your high and mighty horse. I don't feel one damn bit guilty for not putting judging info that isn't mine to give out on a public forum.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Ned250, You asked a great question and I don't shoot ibo so hopefully somebody will chime in. You are right that the game you play is a big factor right along with guessing the yardage and at your max yardage since the 12 ring is in the middle there might be a cool way to approach that shot. 

For me I play the exact same game all day long on all shots except for my max yardage shot, I guess the yardage exactly and then I add a little safety yardage to it because I aim directly at the 12 ring on every shot. This allows me to hit some of the 12's and on most targets I hit slightly high for a 10 and on a average weekend where my yardage is decent I will get a few 12's and a bunch of 10's and shoot a competitive score. On a good yardage weekend where I can basically guess the yardage perfect and not add much safety yardage I will shoot more 12's and still not shoot 8's and that is when i find myself on the podium. That is the game that I play and it is so simple and I do it every target which makes my decision making very consistant, I notice that guys that aim directly on some targets at the 12 and then other targets they aim at the connector and then some targets that are long they aim center ibo and some targets they call uppers, to me these guys are playing a much harder game that forces them to stay much more focused on which style shot they are going to shoot from target to target and I hear them struggling with it after things don't work out.

With my game plan I don't see it as "Gunning for 12's", I hear that a lot where guys say that they aren't going to go for them today and when I ask them about it I hear them saying that they aren't going to aim at them at all directly. Just because I am aiming at the 12 doesn't mean I am gunning for it, I am just giving myself a chance to hit the 12 but in all reality I am just trying to stay in the 10 ring just above the 12 and through out the day if I am judging good I will accumulate 9 or so 12's and if I am not dropping out the bottom getting 8's I am going to have a really competitive score.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It is just nice to see where myself and the rest of the guys here on archery talk stand with you, i mean you didn't have a problem telling me numerous times to contact your dad or buddy who ever that guy was and pay him to get the information and he would be happy to work with me but obviously there are other people that you are willing to not receive a dime and you will spill your guts to them.

My horse is a little harley custom 1200 that I spray painted with a can of krylon from walley world and I am a pretty big guy for a little hog but I like my horse and ain't getting off anytime soon.

Whatever you do, don't ever ever ever tell me the tricks because they will be used and told to everyone.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm good with that and feel no need to justify it to you.


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

I hear ya there Padgett, Im dreaming and scheming on a range here at my place too. I got big plans but low dollars! Too bad them 3d foamies are so stinkin expensive! 

I was just out in my 2.2 acres just yesterday evening ranging off trees, looking for new shooting lanes, pounding stakes to get ready for some targets to be placed. These will be homemade 3d, (wood box and shrink wrap stuffed), and a few real foamies, and the rest those $69 compressed blocks of foam from Cabelas. I can shoot to about 100 yards on a couple angles, flat, side hill up and down. I am anxious to get it going but gotta buy a new lawn mower first as my existing one is on an IV and dying. Here in the PNW the grass just grows too danged fast.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I'm so lucky here in little old Rhode Island to have a club with indoor, a 15 target 3D and a 14T field course at my disposal 24X7... We also have monthly 30T 3D shoots and 28T field shoots monthly. Leagues, indoor shoots during the winter. Lucky me! There are also an abundance of other clubs within a 70 mile radius.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, off subject, but maybe helpful.

You know, clubs do sell off targets from time to time, shot out, busted up. And maybe not so much today with the replacement centers. I joined a club shortly after getting into archery. Back then, 2000/2001, repair kits were available for about $50.00. A kit repaired a bunch of targets. From around 2001 to 2003 I repaired a "on record" 135 targets. Target shot out, broken in a dozen pieces, I could put it back in action. To date, maybe 500. At one time I had 19 in my back yard I know I didn't have $250 in. 

Foam kits today suck for cost, but cost can be cut down. You know the rear sections that usually get thrown away? Same foam that's in the point zone. Yep, cut down to sort of press fit, like a core, leave X amount to be filled over with the kit foam. Foam that leaks down around the core will glue it solid. 

14" inches of good Rinehart foam is in the center of this Buffalo. Didn't even have it painted and it sold.


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## elkbow69 (May 7, 2010)

Man Sonny that buff's seen some action! 
Your right, targets can be found occasionally. 
Craigslist has them from time to time. The clubs around my area seem to hold onto them though till they are tattered foam chunks that resemble an animal of some sort, then sell them.


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

Elite_Bowhunter said:


> I know practice is the best, just curious what you guys use to help if your not exactly sure of yourself. Example randy ulmers flipping the 20 yard pole, thanks guys can't wait to hear your suggestions!


I know you want suggestions for _legal_ methods for range estimation, but I'll toss out one that is probably used but never talked about…bracketing.

I would guess that some top shooters use a bracketing system to support their yardage estimates. This would be similar to what is used in unmarked FITA field shoots in Europe. With a good bracketing system you aren't guessing, you know within a yard or two what the distance is. People that "bracket" won't admit to doing it..wink, wink..it's not legal. But unless the person is really obvious, it's impossible to tell if the method is being employed. 

The Amateur bracketer will guess the distance, set their sight, draw, bracket/aim, let down, change their sight setting, draw again, and then shoot. The Pro bracketer will guess the distance, set their sight, draw, bracket/aim, and if the sight isn't set for their initial guess, they will "hold off" (aim high/low to adjust for the amount their guess differs from the bracket), and shoot. The "pro bracketing method" is what is used in Europe because they have a "no sight change on 1st arrow letdown" rule. 

People will say you can't bracket 3D targets because they are all different sizes. This is only true if you try to bracket the entire animal, but with the exception of the really small animal targets, the majority have a fairly standard sized 10 ring..~5". If you use binos to locate the 10, or are blessed with good vision, bracketing the 10 ring is fairly simple. Much easier than the FITA guys have it in Europe where they have to deal with multiple sized paper target faces.

Yes, I'm being cynical about the top pros. I mean heck…with thousands in prize money, sponsorships, and prestige on the line nobody would ever do something like bracket. Would they? ;-)

http://www.papagoarchery.com/forms/Field_Guidelines-e.pdf


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I always think it is important to find out why you just misjudged that target. It was 44 and I shot it for 40.5. What caused me to miss that far? I seldom do miss more than a yard or so, but the occasional miss keeps me out of the winner's circle. One thing I do in practice that I don't see many talk about is not looking at a target and judge it all the time. I like to pick a yardage and then pick the spot that is that distance to the target. It is a different way of thinking that seems to help me. I don't usually do the ground thing, or the tree thing, but rather judge based on target appearance. If I feel a little confused, I will try "walking" in the distance to the target to confirm.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I love when guys say these guys are bracketing. Its illegal to draw let down and move your sight. And if you think you can remember the gaps on all those targets wo writing them down your nuts. Which btw is illegal to write anything down on cards. I can show you pages of range practice cards that I average .5 yards off and no more than 2 yards off on 20 targets that I range daily. The key is you have to own or have access to the targets and look at them daily.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I would think, being that "archery is a person's "profession", and there is income being made with it, the targets can be classified as "tools" and there is some amount, if all of the expense of buying them, that can be amortized on taxes, as "expense of the profession",....just the same as I could write off purchases of tools and work clothes/shoes, etc. that I made, when I was working as a professional carpenter.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It is funny, last summer we were getting our butts kicked every week by Blake Allen at my buddies house shooting our wednesday night buddy shoot with makenzie targets and the guy that owns the targets decided to change things up a little so we could possibly beat Blake. He is a semi pro shooter and I have shot with him for a couple years and he is always claiming that he is guessing within a half yard or even to the tenth of a yard when we are shooting local tournaments and I always felt like he was just screwing with us and exaggerating.

Well, we decided to step up to the target and write down our guess on the score card before taking the shot and then after taking the shot we shot the target with the range finder and if you:

1. Were within a yard you got zero points

2. From 1 to 1.9 you got one point

3. From 2 to 2.9 you got two points

And so on.


So we shot the 30 target course and by the end of the night I was pretty excited about my score because I had accumulated about 26.5 points total for the evening and I had probably 8 targets where I had guessed within one yard and the other targets I had guessed just over a yard or two and I only had a couple targets where I had missed by 3 or 4 yards. Just as I got done adding up my card Blake said his score and he had gotten 6 points for the 30 targets. and two of the six points came from one target and he had missed 4 targets by right at one yard and the rest were within a half yard. That comes to 25 targets that Blake ranged within a half yard, blake is a target size judger and just looks at the target for his primary guess.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I know you want suggestions for _legal_ methods for range estimation, but I'll toss out one that is probably used but never talked about…bracketing.
> 
> I would guess that some top shooters use a bracketing system to support their yardage estimates. This would be similar to what is used in unmarked FITA field shoots in Europe. With a good bracketing system you aren't guessing, you know within a yard or two what the distance is. People that "bracket" won't admit to doing it..wink, wink..it's not legal. But unless the person is really obvious, it's impossible to tell if the method is being employed.
> 
> ...


I think this method of judging would be completely legal in ASA as long as you don't change your sight after letting down (they too have a rule about that). I question whether time spent on that would be better than time spent with a rangefinder, but maybe if a guy gets good at both, he could certainly use this is a double check. I still think if you practice enough at your chosen method/methods, you will be more accurate by just judging the distance. There are numerous examples of top 3d shooters being within 1 yard per target on an entire range when they only carried a rangefinder.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Just my 2 cents so take it for what its worth. There are various methods, procedures, and systems for estimating distance for 3D archery. Regardless of what secret you attain from Dan Hart or other yardage gurus the bottom line is there is no quick way to eliminate an individual's tendencies. There are good, better, best scenarios in every aspect of 3D whether it is our setup, shot execution, or range estimation. To make your good become better there is only one way. HARD WORK! 

Padgett, you say you want to improve you range estimation skills. What part of your range estimation do you want to improve? Have you begun to isolate your tendencies? I mean when you misjudge a target are there any patterns? Do you over judge uphill targets? Do you under judge downhill targets? Have you ever shot a 5 due to poor range estimation? If so what was the shot scenario? was it uphill, downhill? What was the lane condition? Was it an open shot, wooded shot, tunnel shot, over a knoll shot where the feet of the animal were not visible etc.? What was the lighting condition? Was the sun behind you, in front of you, or straight up? Of the last ten bedded buck targets you shot what was your average +/- yards in regards to the actual target distance? Were you always hot on yardage or cold on yardage for the bedded buck? if it was a mixture meaning sometimes you were hot and sometimes you were cold then isolate your hot estimations. Is there a pattern? Is there a common that the bedded buck was set when you judged it hot? For instance if the 5 times you judged the target hot say the actual range of the target was 32-36 yds. for those 5 targets. From that data you can understand your tendencies. In this case your tendency would be that on a bedded buck target set in the ranges of 32-36yds. your tendency is to over estimate the range by plus 2 yards. Not that this is your tendency I'm just using examples for the sake of conversation but I think you understand my point. Once you learn or isolate the data of the targets that cost you points you can start to place more effort in getting better in these areas. Practicing without an agenda or practicing just for the sake of practicing will not guarantee improvement. Practicing to or working to improve a specific area of your game and the points lost in that area is what needs to happen to see results.

I bet most people in 3D could not answer the questions I asked above yet they still say they want to get better. Newsflash, if you can't answer the questions in regards to your tendencies how can you expect to get better? So as you can see improvement is a process that requires lots of time and dedication. This is why the top pros are good at what they do. While the majority of us are at our 9-5 jobs they are refining their processes and learning ways to minimize their misses.

Remember the hardest part about getting better is getting started.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Irish, you're talking Range Management, right? A seldom spoke of subject.....


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

If that it what you want to call it. 

My beliefs are different from most in so far as I don't believe you can truly change how you perceive things or how your brain processes information. I believe it is better to judge as you always do and collect enough data so that you can make educated decisions based on the data. 

I mean if my target log shows that I have judged the last 20 boar targets I shot cold t
Anywhere from 2-3.5yds then based on the data I would judge the target the same way I always did and add 2.5. My belief is this is easier than trying to change how or why my brain or eyes consistently sees this target for less than it is.

Bottom line is collect enough data and find a common denominator amongst the targets you are losing points on if the points lost are directly related to range estimation. If it is a form issue then start with the big 3 and find out what the problem is.


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## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

I saw "bracketing" brought up in this conversation. And I had no idea what that was so I looked it up. Knowing the maximum and minimum distance. Correct? Buy then what I'm still stumped on is why someone gains advantage by drawing back and bracket, then let down and reset there sight? Could anybody enlighten the newbie on why/how that works?


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## tadpole (Oct 10, 2005)

One of the problems with a lot of local shoots is they won't set up very many long shots for the open shooters because they don't want to make shooters mad and they won't come back! And that kills a bunch of guys when they get to a big shoot they haven't seen anything over 40yrds and they either judge wrong or not able to hold on the right spot and make a bad shot.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

swampy_44 said:


> I saw "bracketing" brought up in this conversation. And I had no idea what that was so I looked it up. Knowing the maximum and minimum distance. Correct? Buy then what I'm still stumped on is why someone gains advantage by drawing back and bracket, then let down and reset there sight? Could anybody enlighten the newbie on why/how that works?


Bracketing is taking your pins and finding the gap that the animal or core or something fits in. So as you move back the animal appears smaller so the gap changes. The problem is several fold with this 1 there are too many different sized targets to keep track of the gaps. You can't write it down so you can't keep track of gaps. Also the accuracy of this is at best to the 5 yards. You could tell if its closer to 40 or 45 yards at best. Dont waste your time. You can be way more accurate with your eyes just looking at how far a target appears. I routinely judge on average close to 1 yard with my goal to be no more than 2 yards off. It takes practice but its not that hard. The real key os to hsve the targets and look at them daily.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Just for the record....although tough to enforce, bracketing is completely, totally, 100% ILLEGAL in ASA.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

Ton of very good responses. I use the find the 20yd tree or bush or fallen log method then go from there. It takes a lot of practice so here's something a few of us who shoot together do to practice. Take a rangefinder with you to your 3d matches. Each of you shoot the stage keeping your guessed distance to yourself. When you are done shooting everyone declares the distance they shot at, then use the rangefinder for the actual distance. The guy closest wins the stage and gets a point. If there's a tie everyone with that distance gets a point. Mark the points on your scorecards in the margin. Guy with the highest number of points wins and the others buy him lunch.


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## Whitetail424 (Jan 31, 2009)

well, sounds like all you guys have your shooting game in check. #d and all. I'm just a back yard shooter and out to around 45 yards. When I starting bow hunting I was faced with the same thing so it held my confidence back. Alot of confidence can be aquired by never shooting alone but with a buddy or two. It's not only funner but it adds a competitive edge to it. also I tried the plastic bottle theory once I got in the woods and actually started hunting. I had a certain spot that I always placed trail cams cause it always had the most deer activity. While in my tree stand I would pick out certain trees 360% around me and mark the with a plastic Pepsi bottle. If a deer came in close to one of those bottles I could easily say well that deer is 20 yards, or 25 yards, or even 15 yards. Yes don't ever think that 10 or 15 yards is a gimme shot. Probably the hardest shot you will make is of a deer right under you. This not only gained me confidence, but now I dont use the plastic bottles out to 30 yards. Also never try and be Robinhood, cause only he couls make the arching 100 yard shots... Find your comfort long shot, and anything closer will fall in place.


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