# Ignore pin while aiming?



## buckshot087 (Mar 18, 2010)

I have always aimed by looking at the target but also keeping up with where my pin is. Some say to focus ONLY on the spot you want to hit. Sometimes this works great for me, other times I shoot way low because I let my pin drop if I'm not focused on keeping it on the spot. Who completely ignores the pin and who focuses on both?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The meaning is lost in translation... For those that focus on the target the pin is part of the whole sight picture. Okay, you can't just focus on the target and totally ignore the pin... And the same difference for those that focus on the pin. Here, the pin is kept centered in the peep and aware of where the target is in relationship. And each of us has their own description of either...


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

As the mind is self centering and a passive aim is allowed.......the shot will be more relaxed and executed accordingly. The biggest problem I have had with my students (and even myself) is over-aiming. Many start aiming too soon. Sighting starts early in the shot, but aiming should only be for a few seconds (after transfer). It is important to understand the mechanics of the shot so that the shooter recognizes the set-up is incorrect giving them a wider "float". The shooter will then try to control the pin (passive aiming is lost) and eventually the process will break down. Once aiming has started the mind must stay on the target. If the mind leaves the target that is the first signal to let-down.

Thats my .02. Opinions will differ.


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## bopo2 (Dec 7, 2008)

I find for myself if I just focus on the dot I seem to miss more . But if I acquire the dot then focus just on the pin it seems to lessen the amount of float I see on the target just my opinion


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

subconsciously said:


> As the mind is self centering and a passive aim is allowed.......the shot will be more relaxed and executed accordingly. The biggest problem I have had with my students (and even myself) is over-aiming. Many start aiming too soon. Sighting starts early in the shot, but aiming should only be for a few seconds (after transfer). It is important to understand the mechanics of the shot so that the shooter recognizes the set-up is incorrect giving them a wider "float". The shooter will then try to control the pin (passive aiming is lost) and eventually the process will break down. Once aiming has started the mind must stay on the target. If the mind leaves the target that is the first signal to let-down.
> 
> Thats my .02. Opinions will differ.


Agreed and well put. I put the pin just above the bullseye as part of setup and let it float down about the time I hear the click on the Backspin, then I'm focused on the target while relying on muscle memory to relax my hand while pulling through with my back until the release fires. I stay focused on the target watching for the arrow to impact through the sight ring. I find that if I focus on the target, of course the pin is in the sight picture, but stay focused on the target, my body "automatically" tries to center the pin on the bullseye. If the float is jerky or moving out of the black, it's a signal to let down.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you can't simply "ignore it", you have to establish that it is the "secondary focus" in the shot process. 
one of the ways to do this is by experimenting with dot size and boldness , or ring size and boldness, that puts your aiming process at ease...iow, easy to see and keep track of, but not attention getting.
variations in dot size and boldness and variations in ring diameter, line thickness and color/boldness, is what needs to be experimented with, in order to find what works best for you.
it is an element that runs in the "background" of your shot execution, you will recognize what works best, within a few shots, when you find the right combination.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For me I find that when you concentrate on either the pin or the spot to much you get tunnel vision to everything else that is going on and you end up sending poor shots to the target and after the shot you realize the problem was right there in front of you and you were so focused on the spot that you didn't see the problem.

This is why I wrote the SPECTATOR SHOOTING article, I started spectator shooting myself by accident after talking on a thread just like this one and then just a few weeks later I wrote the article and ever since it has been something special to me. The more I do it and the more I have success with it I am seeing that it is the way to go and very few people have ever approached it this way, most people focus on the target and let everything else go into a fog so that they can run the shot subconsciously and this creates the tunnel vision that allows things to creep up on you and send a bad arrow. Spectator shooting allows you to be focused but you are aware of everything from the spot you are trying to hit to your pin floating to your good form and the wind in the trees but since you are just a spectator you aren't influencing any of them. YOU ARE JUST AWARE OF THEM. This awareness allows your brain to float on the spot and it allows you to run your firing engine with the muscle memory from months of training.

For me and most people who have never spectator shot before they don't realize how much command they have over the pin when they are a coach or student who is told to really focus on the spot you want to hit and don't look at the pin, look through the pin. There are many different ways to present this kind of approach but almost all of them lead a shooter into commanding the float even though the coach isn't wanting that to happen, the presentation creates the tunnel vision that gives the student to much focus on the float and that leads them to grabbing onto the pin and commanding it. The other thing is leads to is pausing the firing engine based on the commanding not being ready for the engine to finish the job. All of this leads to so much focus on the spot and the engine that the shooter loses the smooth firing engine and when they try to add some pressure to the wall the pin gets pulled off the spot and they miss.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Spectator Shooting

“Spectator Shooting” is something that I envisioned in August 2013, I was becoming a hinge shooter but I was still hanging on to some to the issues of being a puncher for so many years. That month I asked myself a question; "Does Reo Wilde hope or pray or force himself to hit a bullseye? My answer was hell no, he is the best freaking shooter in the world and he already knows he is going to get an x. He has an awesome small float and a good firing engine and he just lets them do their job and he gets to watch through the peep as it happens. I thought to myself I wish I could watch through his peep and see what his float looks like and what his firing engine feels like and just watch the arrow fly to the bullseye.

That is when I envisioned “Spectator Shooting” for the first time because I decided to do exactly that with my own shooting, I know that I am not Reo Wilde but why the hell can't I act like him. I study my float all the time and I know what it looks like and I have a very good float, I also have a good firing engine that fires my hinge in around 3 to 5 seconds every shot. I decided to just draw back and settle in and then just spectate through the peep and watch my float without touching my pin or influencing it, I really do just watch it do its thing and at the same time I run my engine and yes I can feel it running but I don't mess with it I just watch my float and I feel the engine running and then the arrow is on its way and I watch it hit the bullseye. 

This is “Spectator Shooting” and to me it is the ultimate goal of letting go of commanding the shot in any way, “Spectator Shooting” is very relaxing and stress free because you aren't controlling the pin and you aren't pausing and restarting the firing engine so you are really just watching through the peep.



Aiming and Floating 

Aiming and float in many respects are the same thing and the way I think of aiming is that it is the downloaded app inside your brain that has the ability to re-center the pin on the bullseye without you doing it, your brain really will center the pin on the bullseye over and over again but you have to learn to let the brain do its job without you grabbing onto the pin and trying to force it to happen. Float to me is what the pin looks like as you are actually aiming, I study my float all the time in practice sessions and my float goes left to right at 20 yards inside a 5-spot x inside the x from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock, I have balanced my bow so that my float doesn't bounce up and down and it doesn't want to drop out the bottom it just moves nicely from left to right.

In fact I study my float enough to know even more about it, my float starts right when I start aiming and for 1.5 seconds left to right inside the x and then the pin comes to a dead stop in the center for about 1 second and then it floats for about 2 more seconds inside the x from left to right. After that it progressively gets worse and may or may not be inside the x and I get shaky and pathetic every single time and there is no chance of recovering.

Now why in the hell would I try and force my pin when for the first 5 seconds of my float it is inside the x, if the hinge fires during that time period I am guaranteed an x every single shot so again why in the hell would I force the pin to do anything. Secondly why in the hell if I know that my float is going to be poor after 5 seconds would I knowingly allow myself to shoot, well I don't. I simply let down and take a couple deep breaths and get my bullseye on the second attempt during the 5 seconds of optimal float.


Forcing, Touching, Commanding, and Pausing

The following four things simply have to leave your shooting forever, they have no positive purpose in your shooting. 

Forcing and Commanding: They are very similar and they involve grabbing the pin and strangling it when it is perfect and then firing when the pin is perfect.

Touching: This is when you have started your firing engine and the pin floats off the bullseye for some reason and you grab the pin and try and move it back to the bullseye, many times this extra muscle tension causes the hinge to fire and you miss the bullseye.

Pausing: This is when you float off the bullseye during your firing engine running and you put on the brakes and pause until you can touch the pin and bring it back to the bullseye and then fire up the engine again. It causes freezing up and poor shots.

All of these issues must leave your shooting forever because they lead to many bad shots every day and even when you are lucky and have a good day they will kick your butt tomorrow. I personally shot over 10 60x rounds of 5-spot last year commanding and forcing every shot and it was simply the most stressful shooting I have ever done. Right now I am not doing any of these things and I am so much better that my future goal is to be an everyday 60x guy instead of a guy that accidentally shoots a 60 x once every few weeks or only during a really good week.
Socket Man


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Reading that spectator shooting article is so hard for me because the first half of the article where I explain spectator shooting it seems like I have left so much good stuff out and that there needs to be more. Then the second half of the article gives the definitions of the aiming, floating and commanding and forcing. I still like the way I wrote that little article and haven't changed it much over the last year. I still have a feeling I need to expand the first half a little and add something else to the explanation of spectator shooting but I just don't know what it is yet.

Here is the target panic article that is kind of a supplement article to the spectator shooting article.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Target Panic
In the 1980's when I was a finger shooter I had it and didn't even know what it was called, last year I became a hinge shooter and shot around 10 five spot rounds with a perfect score of 300 60x and I had it. Target panic can be something that brings your shooting to a halt or it can just sneak up and nibble at your ankles and screw up a good score with one miss for that day. Right now for the first time in my life I am shooting with absolutely no target panic for the first time and it is a awesome experience to say the least, my shooting sessions are so fun and relaxing and I can enjoy my shooting weather it is a perfect day or I miss a few. Eliminating target panic isn't a guaranteed perfect round but it is the peace of mind that you are going to make a good shot every time you draw the bow and at least give the arrow a chance to find the bulleseye. So lets get started and take a look at how I have gotten there. 

1. THE DECISION: About three months ago I made the decision to never send a arrow to a target again that didn't feel right, I don't care if it is my footing or my firing engine or my eyes blurr or there is some glare on my scope lens. If something isn't right I let down and take a few breaths and then draw again. For most guys at some time during a bad shot something isn't working out and they force the shot to go ahead to happen and they pray that they make a good shot. This is when target panic likes to jump up and bite you in the azz and send the arrow 7 inches away to the right or something. Simply make the decision to never do this again.

2. STUDY YOUR FLOAT: For most of us shooting the arrow is what we want to do all the time but stepping back and not shooting can bring more in return, at least 2 days a week you need to study your float. I personally do this during warm up when I get to the range and I simply draw back and watch my pin float inside the 5-spot x and I look for patterns that it has and I learn what it likes to do during the first part of the float and the middle and when I am running out of breath. Then I let down and take a few breaths and I draw back and shoot the arrow and now I am studying my float to see if it looks the same as when I wasn't shooting, this is really important to develop a firing engine that runs so smooth that your natural float pattern isn't affected by the firing engine. 

3. WELL DEFINED PRACTICE SESSIONS: You must think about each part of your shot and that means your firing method and your floating and your form and your aiming, to many guys preach that your shot must be subconscious and yes it should be but you must develop a good firing engine and let your muscle memory build up so that you can let it become subconscious and that means training. There are three main practice sessions you must cover and they are floating, firing engine, scoring rounds. When you are practicing one of them absolutely do not think about the other two so when working on floating you aren't thinking about firing or scoring a good score, you are only studying your float. When you are shooting a scoring round you aren't thinking about firing or aiming you are only spectator shooting and enjoying the good score.

4. SPECTATOR SHOOTING: Spectator shooting is my second favorite article I ever wrote and probably the most important one, my hinge setup routine is my favorite and first article I ever wrote but you absolutely must read the spectator shooting article and become a spectator. Just pm me and I will send it, it speaks for itself.

5. INTERNAL ARROGANCE: I guarantee you have some but you need to learn to use it to your advantage instead of letting it hurt you, the second that arrogance turns into a pride thing where you are worried about missing a shot you should totally smoke the bulleseye you are letting your arrogance work against you. We all have a feel for what our personal shooting ability really is and what bulleseyes are easy for us to shoot, therefore having the internal arrogance to know that the bulleseye is already mine and now I am going to simply spectator shoot and get the bulleseye and write it on my score card. I don't have to force the shot or hope the arrow hits the spot or pray that the arrow hits the spot because this shot is within my ability to smoke it every stinking time. This is using your internal arrogance to help you instead of hurt you.

6. I SIMPLY DO NOT CARE: Sooner or later you are going to figure out that caring when the release fires or wanting to know when the release is going to fire is the thing that creates target panic, so stop caring. The key here is to realize that you can develop firing engine that runs like it is on cruise control and fires your release within a window of something like 2 to 5 seconds, then you tie it together with your float pattern and time them so that your firing engine is going to fire within the optimal good float window. The key here is if your release fires withing the optimal float window then you are guaranteed a bulleseye so why in the hell would you care when it fires, that is why I simply don't care.
Socket Man


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Too much thought into it. Relax and center up the circles. If you overthink it, you will over correct it.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

cbrunson said:


> Too much thought into it. Relax and center up the circles. If you overthink it, you will over correct it.


Good comment. My coach says I over think my shots and says to trust yourself. He doesn't say it, but he's describing Padgett's spectator shooting, but how do you make your float consistent? On some shots my pin seems to settle into the X with very little movement, other times my float is larger but the motion is smooth, at other times the float is jerky. I start by looking at form issues, good grip, relaxing wrist, rolling shoulders down and back, ... , but still can't get it into a single mode.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For me studying my float has many layers:

1. Stabilizers and rear bar and weight combinations.

2. Firing engines all affect float patterns differently, sitting in the valley and yielding compared to pulling into the wall hard to rotating etc.

3. Commanding the pin when it isn't doing what you wanted it to do 

4. irregular grip and form

5. poor footing on a 3d compared to flat indoor footing

To me all of these issues have to be addressed and most of them are permanent things that once you take care of them they are no longer a problem except for the poor footing one during 3d. It is something you need to be aware of and deal with on a regular basis instead of ignoring it.

I personally think the stabilization one is the one that everyone is aware of and puts effort into but the rest of the issues I listed people just ignore them and continue shooting with a poor float that drops out the bottom or jumps around. To me the grip and how to do it properly has made a nice improvement to my stability of my float, I don't think it shrunk my float but it is very reliable about staying consistant and not dropping out. The one that really is amazing is the different firing engines and how they affect your float, I teach hinge shooting all the time and I use many different firing engines and there is a reason that i have one that is my competition choice because it is very very reliable when it comes to not screwing with the float where many of them introduce a problem that is going to show up during the day.

Good luck and if you want to discuss any of this stuff just pm me.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Strodav said:


> Good comment. My coach says I over think my shots and says to trust yourself. He doesn't say it, but he's describing Padgett's spectator shooting, *but how do you make your float consistent*? On some shots my pin seems to settle into the X with very little movement, other times my float is larger but the motion is smooth, at other times the float is jerky. I start by looking at form issues, good grip, relaxing wrist, rolling shoulders down and back, ... , but still can't get it into a single mode.


The thing that I feel most of us overlook is strength. If it isn't holding you often fight it, and try to force it to hold. The longer you fight it, the weaker you get. (fatigue). It's better to recognize quickly that the shot isn't there and get out of it. Rest a little longer and try again. There are a lot of little tricks and adjustments to help it hold better but ultimately it comes down to you knowing it can hold. Confidence is huge. Knowing you can hold it there and it will hit the X is the game.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

In terms of aiming consistency, I think it helps when you have a smooth, practiced shot that you can calmly but quickly get to sight on target. When you get rusty the clock ticks faster, you spend more time just finding the middle. Stamina starts to come into play.

I don't think there is a strict rule on pins, it can be necessary with a huge aperture to narrow down the space to where you want to hit. It can be useful in a relaxed aiming process. But you don't want to tire out and stress out trying to line up "just so." It can be a fine tune benefit or it can muck things up. I know many recurve people who just have a tube, and not even necessarily a skinny one.


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