# Are Fivics Polite Care tabs illegal release aids?



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

The Fivic's Polite Care tabs have hooks for one or two fingers that are designed to allow those fingers to help share the load on the tab. (Presumably based on the idea that the friction of the string on the leather allows some of the force to be taken up through the metal plate, and thus by the fingers on the hooks.)



> This invention was designed to draw and release strings by using your index and middle fingers only and apply the force by your ring and little fingers effectively so that the finger tab for archery to be able to shoot arrows accurately and distribute the force effectively can be provided for you.


http://www.fivics.com/fivics2013/product/product_fingertap_1.html








So, the idea is, with the 2 finger tab especially, that you can hold the force back with all of your fingers. That sounds like a release aid to me. The metal tab is being used not for anchoring purposes but as an aid. 



> 11.1.8. Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape, to draw and release the string is permitted, *provided they do not incorporate any device that shall assist the athlete to draw and release the string*.
> 11.1.8.1. A separator between the fingers to prevent pinching the arrow may be used. *An anchor plate* or similar device attached to the finger protection (tab) *for the purpose of anchoring is permitted.* On the bow hand an ordinary glove, mitten or similar item may be worn but shall not be attached to the grip of the bow.


I don't know if WA has ruled on this one way or another. Clearly the hooks aren't for "finger protection" (a two finger tab should have a plate 2 fingers high, I'd think), nor are they just rests, like the pinky hook on the Saker could be argued to be. I'd rule against it if I was on the technical committee (not that I'm qualified, though :dontknow: ), but I also know that the technical committee can rule in was that seems surprising given the written rules (eg. smartphones allowed at the target for arrow plotting)


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Looks like it says "draw and release", not "draw or release". Is there a release mechanism?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

MickeyBisco said:


> Looks like it says "draw and release", not "draw or release". Is there a release mechanism?


Nothing in the rules limits prohibited release aids to a "mechanism". Many golden era release aids have no moving parts. A leather flipper release is nothing but leather, but it is a release aid (though one allowed in flight archery where *other* types of release aids are prohibited).

Also, not getting your point about and vs. or. The 2 finger Fivics Polite Care tab claims to distribute the weight over *all* of the fingers, but limit the string interference to just two, which aids drawing _and_ releasing (easier to draw with the weight on all of your fingers rather than just two). :dontknow:


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## zephus (Apr 28, 2012)

This post is worrying me, I was about to grab one of these so perhaps I should wait and see who else chimes in about these tabs.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

mechanism or not, it appears to be more of a holding aid. I don't see how this could be considered a release aid because the fingers are holding the load. Not a leather thong, string, caliper or thumb ring. If it's a release aid, how does it aid release? I have no dog in this hunt as I don't use this tab, I'm just curious.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

MickeyBisco said:


> mechanism or not, it appears to be more of a holding aid. I don't see how this could be considered a release aid because the fingers are holding the load. Not a leather thong, string, caliper or thumb ring. If it's a release aid, how does it aid release? I have no dog in this hunt as I don't use this tab, I'm just curious.


I'd say it is a release aid in a related, but not identical, fashion as a flipper release (a leather strip that folds over the string and is pinched by the thumb and forefinger), and can be hooked over the pinky - it lets you hold the weight with your hand by transmitting the load through the leather (at least I *think* that is how it is supposed to work - can't tell from the translations on the Fivics pages). Regardless, the Fivics Polite Care tab purports to let you do something you can't without it, which is hold the string load back with all of your fingers, but without out all of your fingers on the string. The more fingers on the string, the worse the release, mechanically speaking. It aids you to use fewer fingers, but without the normal trade off of having to hold the full load on just those fingers. It is an aid. It is designed, marketed and sold as an aid.

To me, there are two questions, none of which is weather or not the tab is made to be an aid. It is. My questions are 

A) does it actually work for it's claimed purpose - that is, does it actually allow the fingers not on the string to bear some of the load?

B) will it skate through a FITA technical committee ruling (as the Hoyt Steath Shot string stop did) or will they actually call it out based on the rules?

Ok, make that 3 questions:

C) will a judge prohibit one at a shoot prior to a technical committee ruling?


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Please explain how any fingers not wrapped on the string can assume any of the load of the string.

Does the metal plate of the tab have any ledges, bumps, projections, etc. that, in any way, hold the string in a rearward position?

The answers to the above statement and question provide the overall answer of whether it is a tab or release.

Furthermore, this tab will promote unwanted tension in the draw hand and be counter productive, somewhat like locking the thumb behind the shooter's neck. The end result is plucking the string.

Years ago, Check-It had a tab with a two under leather mounted to a dowell. First and fourth finger around the dowell and the second and third fingers holding the string. It was not popular and did not last very long. I have one laying around somewhere.


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## zephus (Apr 28, 2012)

Warbow said:


> B) will it skate through a FITA technical committee ruling (as the Hoyt Steath Shot string stop did) or will they actually call it out based on the rules?
> 
> Ok, make that 3 questions:
> 
> C) will a judge prohibit one at a shoot prior to a technical committee ruling?


Perhaps to answer these two questions, have we seen any shooters in any of the FITA circuits using this tab in competition yet?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

FS560 said:


> Please explain how any fingers not wrapped on the string can assume any of the load of the string.


Well, that is the question, isn't it? 

First off, sharing the load with all the fingers is what the tab *claims* to do. The tabs use the metal to form a **pistol grip**, not merely to aid anchoring - so on that basis *alone* they could be baned, regardless of whether the actually work as claimed as a holding and release aid.

I think it is highly likely if you choked up on the leather before taking a deep hook you could load up the leather with some tension - but I don't know if that would work very well. 

Does the metal plate of the tab have any ledges, bumps, projections, etc. that, in any way, hold the string in a rearward position?



FS560 said:


> The answers to the above statement and question provide the overall answer of whether it is a tab or release.


Sure, it has up to *two* finger hooks that are supposed to aid those non-string fingers in holding, and releasing the load. (You are supposed to release *all* the fingers on loose). I should point out that a flipper release has no "ledges, bumps, projections" yet is unequivocally a release.



FS560 said:


> Furthermore, this tab will promote unwanted tension in the draw hand and be counter productive, somewhat like locking the thumb behind the shooter's neck. The end result is plucking the string.


That's what I thought initially until I saw the Fivics video of the tab in use. You are not supposed to keep the tension on the lower fingers, but rather relax them along with the two on the tab - you don't hang on to the tab like a pistol with the bottom two fingers. This may actually be better ergonomically than the way we normally shoot with tension on 3 fingers, and a relaxed pinky. Relaxing all the fingers from tension may actually be more ergonomic and natural than trying to keep tension on just three and then relax them.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

zephus said:


> Perhaps to answer these two questions, have we seen any shooters in any of the FITA circuits using this tab in competition yet?


That would be helpful, but ultimately I'd think there would need to be a Technical Committee ruling to get a dispositive answer.

Think of it this way. If someone told you about a tab with a metal *pistol grip*, would that sound legal to you? My thinking is that there is no valid, WA legal purpose for the metal pistol grip. (But, I'm not saying that WA couldn't find it legal - who can guess what they will rule. Perhaps they have already, but I haven't found such a ruling yet, only one that Terry tab type palm extension attachment is legal as long as it doesn't extend past the wrist - which I don't think should necessarily be legal, either, since they are a hand brace, but judging them would be a pain if they were banned since it would be hard to define the ban.)


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Apparently, someone hasn't been paying attention to Sakers I, II, and III. And W&W.


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## zephus (Apr 28, 2012)

Well the Sakers are still quite standard as tabs go. The Polites are truly something else entirely and Warbow has some cause for concern that probably can be addressed by either WA or even Fivics.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

So any tab with a pinky hook would be illegal?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

theminoritydude said:


> Apparently, someone hasn't been paying attention to Sakers I, II, and III. And W&W.


The pinky hook on the Sakers is more of an after thought - a pinky rest. The pinky rests on the Saker 1, Saker 2 and Saker 3 tabs are specifically not load bearing. Each tab is explicitly designed for *all* of the load to be on the three fingers that hook the string, in varying proportions: 










30+50+20=100% on the string fingers.

The metal pistol grip on the Fivics Polite 2 Finger Care tab is made and sold as load bearing. The design and marketing of the Polite Care tab is fundamentally different:








Fivic's own claims are why, I think, the Polite Care tab is not, or should not be, WA legal. (But, again, I'm not convinced that it actually does work as claimed - regardless, I think the metal pistol grip has no WA legal finger protecting or anchoring purpose.)


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

i dont know if you are being serious or just trying to point out the flawed sales pitch...


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

b0w_bender said:


> So any tab with a pinky hook would be illegal?


See above.

However, yes, I think metal pinky hooks serve no WA legal finger protection or anchoring purpose, whereas a ledge, for example, does. And, again, that doesn't mean that the Technical Committee would not rule, or has not ruled them legal, but I think such a ruling would contradict a plain reading of the current rules. Also, pinky hooks and pistol grips are pretty easy to define, and ban. Just ban any extensions below the draw fingers. Nothing below the draw fingers is for anchoring purposes they way a ledge above them is.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dacer said:


> i dont know if you are being serious or just trying to point out the flawed sales pitch...


It's just something that caught my eye. What is your take? Do you think that metal pistol grip tabs are consistent with the rules I posted? If so, why? :dontknow:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

this what I found in WA rules, by the way
Book3 Target Archery under the recurve section:
11.1.8. Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape, to draw and release the string is permitted, provided they do not incorporate any device that shall assist the athlete to draw and release the string.

11.1.8.1. A separator between the fingers to prevent pinching the arrow may be used. An anchor plate or similar device attached to the finger protection (tab) for the purpose of anchoring is permitted. On the bow hand an ordinary glove, mitten or similar item may be worn but shall not be attached to the grip of the bow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Using the slippery slope logic you have there any tab which attaches to the hand with something more solid than elastic would also be illegal.
It's just a tab, maybe not even a good one. Results will tell us whether it offers any advantage to anyone except fivics accounting department.

Grant


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

b0w_bender said:


> this what I found in WA rules, by the way
> Book3 Target Archery under the recurve section:
> 11.1.8. *Finger protection* in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape, to draw and release the string is permitted, p*rovided they do not incorporate any device that shall assist the athlete to draw and release the string*.
> 
> 11.1.8.1. A separator between the fingers to prevent pinching the arrow may be used. *An anchor plate *or similar device attached to the finger protection (tab) *for the purpose of anchoring is permitted*. On the bow hand an ordinary glove, mitten or similar item may be worn but shall not be attached to the grip of the bow.


Right, the rules I quoted in the OP.

The Fivics Polite Care tab is specifically designed and sold to aid the drawing and releasing of the string by distributing some the string tension to the fingers holding the metal pistol grip - to do with the tab's pistol grip what you cannot do without it.

Someone posted that the difference between recurve and compound rules is that with compound, if the rules don't say you can't, you can, but with recurve, if the rules don't say you can, you can't. The tab rules do not allow for a metal pistol grip tab, nor does such a pistol grip serve either of the two purposes for such tabs: finger protection, anchoring.

:dontknow:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

I could see how some one ,might be able to argue it is a "mechanism" so it probably depends on if you shoot better than someone who is willing to argue the point. If the tournament organizers are in jeopardy of disqualifying 70% of the tournament participants then I bet it would be ruled legal until WA has an official ruling on it.

As far as the pinky hook not being load bearing how much load would there need to be in order to consider it to "assist" in the drawing process?


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## zephus (Apr 28, 2012)

Warbow said:


> The pinky hook on the Sakers is more of an after thought - a pinky rest. The pinky rests on the Saker 1, Saker 2 and Saker 3 tabs are specifically not load bearing.


I wouldn't call it more or less a pinkie rest because I and a couple of other shooters I know actually use the hook to "bear weight" on anchor as we aim. You can call this an 'aid' of sorts, but it would be a very minimal impact to our shooting if we were going without it. 

I would lose the hook if there is a real ruling, but if it works for me and a few shooters I see no reason to give it up lol.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Warbow said:


> It's just something that caught my eye. What is your take? Do you think that metal pistol grip tabs are consistent with the rules I posted? If so, why? :dontknow:


the tab plate isnt holding the load from the string. There is no loading of tension in the leather face that isn't trivial compared to the actual load from the string. The string fingers are holding the load.

thus its a tab like all other tabs and is therefore not a mechanical release aid or anything not acceptable.

It advertising. 


my text books would say i came to the conclusion the other figers dont hold a load, by inspection and common sense.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

grantmac said:


> Using the slippery slope logic you have there any tab which attaches to the hand with something more solid than elastic would also be illegal.
> It's just a tab, maybe not even a good one. Results will tell us whether it offers any advantage to anyone except fivics accounting department.
> 
> Grant


Tape is explicitly allowed as finger protection, therefore a secure attachment of finger **protection** is allowed. Pistol grip? That, I think, isn't. It isn't protecting the string fingers, providing separation for split finger, nor for anchoring purposes.

BTW, I have no concerns that someone with a magic pistol grip tab will beat me based on tab performance alone. I don't have any illusions that any deficiencies in my archery could be magically fixed by a tab. But, I do think that an archer with one of these could, based on the published rules, have their tab DQd. Better to consider this in advance than find out at an inopportune time at a shoot.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dacer said:


> the tab plate isnt holding the load from the string. There is no loading of tension in the leather face that isn't trivial compared to the actual load from the string. The string fingers are holding the load.
> 
> thus its a tab like all other tabs and is therefore not a mechanical release aid or anything not acceptable.
> 
> ...


What do you think, though, would be the WA legal purpose of a metal pistol grip? Tabs are limited to certain allowed functions, finger protection, finger separation, anchoring. What is the expliclitly allowed function that a metal pistol grip would fall into?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

zephus said:


> I wouldn't call it more or less a pinkie rest because I and a couple of other shooters I know actually use the hook to "bear weight" on anchor as we aim. You can call this an 'aid' of sorts, but it would be a very minimal impact to our shooting if we were going without it.
> 
> I would lose the hook if there is a real ruling, but if it works for me and a few shooters I see no reason to give it up lol.


I don't think anyone should stop using equipment based on whether I think a plain reading of the rules would prohibit it.  WA has ruled a lot of things allowed that seem a bit surprising. So I know enough to know that I don't know how WA would (or, maybe, has) ruled on this. All I can say is how the rules come off to me and why.

But, it is interesting that some archers do feel that pistol grip tabs (or at least pinky hooks) can distribute a functional amount of tension off of the string fingers. I don't know any easy way to measure that load objectively, but I am curious as to if and how much tension the pistol grip fingers could take up. The Fivics claims could be ad hype, but Korea does not lack for very smart engineers in archery, so those numbers could all be the real deal.

As for your pinky hook, I can't imagine any reason you shouldn't use it, if you like it, as long as it is isn't prohibited by actual rulings or judges.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the argument could be made that having my two lower fingers in a consistent place would aid in anchoring. I don't think the argument could be made that it assists in release. Well, an argument _could _ be made but I don't think it has any merit. It's a huge stretch to call this a release aid, I'm sorry. It's a stretch for Fivics to market it as such, if that's what the translated ad implies. Certainly it aids in holding and perhaps even drawing.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Warbow said:


> Right, the rules I quoted in the OP.
> :dontknow:


LOL, ya my rules post was a post straight from the department of redundancy department...


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Loads of tabs have finger hooks and have done for years.
This is nothing new.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

toj said:


> Loads of tabs have finger hooks and have done for years.
> This is nothing new.


Come on man you are making it hard to stir up a discussion :cheers:

As to how much those "extra finger hooks" can aid in the string load I'm not sure I could measure it... However, as long as the leather finger "protection" is wrapped around the string it could accept load even if it is just friction. So... so long as your fingers that are holding the string are also holding the leather around the string the non string fingers could pickup some of the load via the leather and in so doing "assist" in drawing the bow. Having said that I doubt the pinky hook or the pistol frame is likely to be disqualified anytime soon.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Quoting from the actual rules it says assist in drawing *and *release. Doesn't really seem like an either/ or kind of thing. The argument keeps being made that it might aid in the drawing/ holding, but I don't see how it's going to aid in the release. "Aiding the release" seems like a salient point if we're discussing this as a release aid.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

toj said:


> Loads of tabs have finger hooks and have done for years.
> This is nothing new.


Can you think of any examples of a WA legal tab with a metal pistol grip for *two* fingers below the string fingers? The Fivics Polite 2 Finger care seems new to me.

Now, I think the Technical Committee sometimes seems to err on the side of letting the status quo slide, and your point that *single* finger hooks have been around for years (at least 9) could cause them to want to grandfather them, and make it harder to ban the dual hook pistol grip. The more logically consistent thing to do, IMO, would be to follow the plain text of the rules and ban all hooks as they don't meet any of the explicit purposes of tabs under the rules.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

MickeyBisco said:


> Quoting from the actual rules it says assist in drawing *and *release. Doesn't really seem like an either/ or kind of thing. The argument keeps being made that it might aid in the drawing/ holding, but I don't see how it's going to aid in the release. "Aiding the release" seems like a salient point if we're discussing this as a release aid.


The advertised point of the Polite Care 2 finger tab is that you get a better mechanical release with fewer fingers. The Polite Care tab purports to allow the benefit of two finger release without the normal disadvantage of having to hold back the full string tension with just those two fingers. That is, I'd say, a release aid. Letting you do with the tab what you can't do without it, and what you can't do with a normal tab without a pistol grip.

I can see that this is a penumbral argument - that it the rules don't define release aid, so this doesn't come off to many as clearly being a release aid since it also uses the draw fingers as well as aiding them. However, it is clear that the design and marketing of the Polite Care tab is to aid in a type of release that you can't do with a normal tab. The rules prohibiting release aids are there to prohibit just that kind of mechanical _advantage_. Nowhere does the definition of release aid (the one that isn't there) say a release aid has to be perfect to be prohibited.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

This is hilarious .


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Hey! You guys know what? This thread just have me an idea! What if we could modify the tab into a mechanical release for compound? Another new product?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Do you people seriously believe that it lets you hold 30% of the load from the bow.......... on fingers that are not even on the string?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dacer said:


> Do you people seriously believe that it lets you hold 30% of the load from the bow.......... on fingers that are not even on the string?


I'm skeptical, but its not theoretically impossible because there is leather attached to the tab that goes to the string. Some tension could be transmitted through that leather. Do you have proof that it can't?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Warbow said:


> I'm skeptical, but its not theoretically impossible because there is leather attached to the tab that goes to the string. Some tension could be transmitted through that leather. Do you have proof that it can't?


Yes, but it doesn't matter what kind of explanation I give you. Be it analogy or literal. You've got your bone and you're going to chew on it. 

Given a 50lb bow; If you think the leather of this tab holds 15lbs of tension - and furthermore that the thumb that is literally just relaxed, gingerly touching the side of the plate is holding 0.5lb of that. You're being foolish, or a troll


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Warbow said:


> The advertised point of the Polite Care 2 finger tab is that you get a better mechanical release with fewer fingers. The Polite Care tab purports to allow the benefit of two finger release without the normal disadvantage of having to hold back the full string tension with just those two fingers. That is, I'd say, a release aid.


No, that's a load bearing aid. Do you relax the two fingers on the pistol grip when you release (*/me imagining flying tabs *)? Is there any mechanical aid that releases the pressure from the two non-string fingers?

The way I look at the rules and this tab:
- You hold the string using two fingers
- Those two fingers are protected by a leather face
- There is no aid to releasing the string, you just relax the two string fingers holding it

Anything else you do with the tab (outside anchoring) may not be an advantage, like stretching the leather to take the load on the two non-string fingers.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

you're allowed to draw the string with as many fingers as you've got - all that's happening is that two of them are no longer on the string.

move on, nothing to see here.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dacer said:


> Yes, but it doesn't matter what kind of explanation I give you. Be it analogy or literal. You've got your bone and you're going to chew on it.
> 
> Given a 50lb bow; If you think the leather of this tab holds 15lbs of tension - and furthermore that the thumb that is literally just relaxed, gingerly touching the side of the plate is holding 0.5lb of that. You're being foolish, or a troll


I asked you if you had any proof. You say yes and then you don't produce it. An ad hominem is not proof.

Again, I've said I'm skeptical of their claims and I've said so throughout the entire thread. I'm open to evidence. Even though it seems unlikely to work as advertised I can't actually rule out the possibility that there is some distribution of tension. Intuitively it seems unlikely, yet intuition can be wrong.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Warbow - it do not matter if there is load (there is not any in this case) on resting fingers as far as you holding string with finger/s and releasing it by these fingers.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Warbow - it do not matter if there is load (there is not any in this case) on resting fingers as far as you holding string with finger/s and releasing it by these fingers.


Is there any shape to the metal plate of the tab that you think would be against the rules? What WA legal reason do you believe the metal pistol grip serves, given that the rules explicitly are for finger protection, finger separation and anchoring?


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Warbow said:


> Is there any shape to the metal plate of the tab that you think would be against the rules? What WA legal reason do you believe the metal pistol grip serves, given that the rules explicitly are for finger protection, finger separation and anchoring?


1. - There is no mention of tab shape, so any shape is allowed.
2. - Probably the same as: pinky hook, elastic/cord straps, palm plate etc.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

OK, a video can be worth a thousand words. What I am demonstrating here is that just having a minor amount of pressure holding a tab around a string will allow the tabs leather to effectively transfer the draw weight to the tab. Some details for those that care the bow is set to 30 pounds so I have not doubt you can easily transfer at least 30 pounds of pressure from the bow string to the tab simply by applying a very small amount of pressure from the hook fingers. Interesting to me that there is even a debate that the non draw fingers are helping with the load so long as that leather is wrapped around the string the tab can be used to assist in the draw and holding of the weight. If there is any question about this walk out to the garage and try it for your self.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

if you loop the leather around and pinch the leather together, like you did in you video, then yes you are putting tension in the leather.

that is however not like,at all, how you hold the string in actual practice.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Dacer said:


> if you loop the leather around and pinch the leather together, like you did in you video, then yes you are putting tension in the leather.
> 
> that is however not like,at all, how you hold the string in actual practice.


So you think the fingers pressing against the leather and wrapping around the string is actually putting less pressure on the leather? 
I assure you there is a hole lot more holding that leather in place when your fingers are wrapped around it than me gently pinching it.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

This thread is ridiculous.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

If you want to believe that the leather of your tab is holding 30% of the bow weight....Then enjoy.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Arsi said:


> This thread is ridiculous.


Yes it is.

But to explain why the design does not go against the rules:
1) WA has deemed it legal. 
2) For the pinky( or indeed the ring finger, heaven forbid) to have been deemed to contribute to drawing the string, it must be proven to have been that finger drawing that 30%. We could EASILY verify this by having an archer missing his or her middle and index finger draw 30% of a 36lbs bow until about 11lbs using the 2CARE tab, without covering the ring finger and pinky with the leather.

Let's see what that does.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dacer said:


> If you want to believe that the leather of your tab is holding 30% of the bow weight....Then enjoy.


As b0w_bender demonstrated, all it takes for the tab leather to hold the *full* weight of the bow is fairly light friction. While that doesn't prove the Fivics Polite Care tabs work as advertised it does at least demonstrate that it is plausible, even though the hooking of the tab in normal us isn't a perfect analog to the single flipper demo b0w_bender posted.

I've been quite up front from the beginning that I'm skeptical of the claims by Fivics. I don't know if they are true - I know I don't know for certain one way or the other. You, though, claim to be certain, yet you haven't demonstrated proof that merits that certainty.



theminoritydude said:


> Arsi said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is ridiculous.
> ...


Citation needed. It is certainly possible that the Technical Committee has ruled on this - though my quick searches have not uncovered any rulings on the Fivics Polite Care 2-finger metal pistol grip tab. If WA has ruled on them, as you explicitly claim, then please provide a link to the ruling. It seems surprising you would say WA has ruled them legal without providing such a citation.



theminoritydude said:


> 2) For the pinky( or indeed the ring finger, heaven forbid) to have been deemed to contribute to drawing the string, it must be proven to have been that finger drawing that 30%. We could EASILY verify this by having an archer missing his or her middle and index finger draw 30% of a 36lbs bow until about 11lbs using the 2CARE tab, without covering the ring finger and pinky with the leather.
> 
> Let's see what that does.


No, it does not have to be proven that the non-string fingers are holding 30% for the Polite Care tab to be **contributing**to the drawing of the string. You are doing a rather blatant bait and switch. Nor does you proposed testing method make sense since the tab claims to perform it's load transfer with the string fingers providing friction between the tab leather and string.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

For the video to show any kind of resemblance to how this tab operates, the tab would need to have its leather affixed to either the tab plate or the archer would have to hold the other side of the leather.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Arsi said:


> For the video to show any kind of resemblance to how this tab operates, the tab would need to have its leather affixed to either the tab plate or the archer would have to hold the other side of the leather.


The video doesn't prove that the Fivics Polite Care tab works as advertised. It's not a perfect analog. However it does demonstrate that it doesn't take a lot of friction to let tab leather hold string tension. There is friction on the leather from the force of the bow as the string squeezes the tab leather against the string fingers when a normal hook is used. This means that it's at least plausible that's the Fivics tab leather could transmit some tension. Does it? I don't know. But I find this interesting from both a technical and a rules perspective.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

A better example is a shooting glove. The wrist straps that hold the glove dont get loaded with weight because its the fingers pulling back the bow, not the glove. This is my last reply. Im losing brain cells in this thread.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Arsi said:


> A better example is a shooting glove. The wrist straps that hold the glove dont get loaded with weight because its the fingers pulling back the bow, not the glove. This is my last reply. Im losing brain cells in this thread.


This is an empirical question. The fact that we are all having to make educated guesses even though it is a fairly simple engineering question makes it, in my opinion, an interesting question to try to answer. This is the kind of question that is within the realm of backyard engineering to try to put some evidence based answers to. b0w_bender has taken the first step in demonstrating some plausibility.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

b0w_bender said:


> OK, a video can be worth a thousand words


I'm convinced the leather can take the load so the pistol-grip fingers have something to do. The question is, do you want to rely on it for consistent releases?
The main load is carried by the index- and middle finger, why introduce another variable (pistol-grip finger pressure, stretching leather) that does nothing for the release of the string?

I use the pinky hook on the Saker I, but not to pull on, just a reference point so I know the tab isn't moving in my hand. I think the pistol grip is there as a place to put you fingers consistently, but not to pull on.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ThomVis said:


> I think the pistol grip is there as a place to put you fingers consistently, but not to pull on.


Well, you certainly could use it that way, though, especially on the 2 finger version, I'd think you'd be getting unwanted potential torque (pitch and roll) more than wanted stability. However, the Polite Care tabs are made and marketed specifically as distributing the load across all the fingers, as shown in the Fivics load distribution graphic in post #14.

Your points about potential variability if the tab does work as advertised seem quite likely - that is, it could cause more problems than benefits.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Warbow said:


> Citation needed.


Citation denied.



Warbow said:


> No, it does not have to be proven that the non-string fingers are holding 30% for the Polite Care tab to be **contributing**to the drawing of the string. You are doing a rather blatant bait and switch. Nor does you proposed testing method make sense since the tab claims to perform it's load transfer with the string fingers providing friction between the tab leather and string.


My god you're right! Have you submitted your concerns to the technical committee? I, and many others here, are very concerned about this, and are eagerly awaiting the answer from you.......


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