# fast forgiving recurve limbs



## Kickapoo (Jun 15, 2007)

From the people that I have spoken to that use Border limbs, they swear that they are by fast the smoothest and fastest limbs out there.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

The Win Win limbs are great too. There was a comparison done recently between Boarder, Win Win, Uukha, samick--don't recall exactly which company involved. If someone can provide a link, it may help the OP with his question.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Border Hex-6bb2 hand down for speed....nothing can even get close (I tested them against Ex-primes and they were 14fps faster). From normal limb profile limbs W&W ex-prime/power are fast limbs.


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

If you searching for the for the fastest and flattest shooting comercially available recurve combination, order Border Hex6H BB2 limbs, which are properly sized in length exactly to your accurate draw length, and then combine them with appropriately spined Carbon Tech McKinney II arrow shafts. 

Mark


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

AdAstraAirow said:


> If you searching for the for the fastest and flattest shooting comercially available recurve combination, order Border Hex6H BB2 limbs, which are properly sized in length exactly to your accurate draw length, and then combine them with appropriately spined Carbon Tech McKinney II arrow shafts.
> 
> Mark


Not sure, but this will not be possible as for minimal arrow weight recommnded by Borders......and it's not really need for it, even with x-10 (with HEX-6 )are very, very fast....


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Border Hex-6bb2 hand down for speed....nothing can even get close (I tested them against Ex-primes and they were 14fps faster). From normal limb profile limbs W&W ex-prime/power are fast limbs.


My 27 inch HPX / Medium Border Hex6 BB2 bow with 290 grain Carbon One 730 arrows, 30 inch draw, 36 pounds on the fingers yields 208 feet per second with bolts all the way out and brace height of 6 1/2 inches.

With bolts all the way in the draw weight on the fingers increases to 38 pounds and the speed is 218 feet per second.

With McKinney II 650 arrows the speed in the latter case would likely be over 225 feet per second.

However, unless you are shooting unmarked distances for field in light wind, arrow speed isn't really a factor. Wind drift, also a consideration for field archery, is minimized mostly by reducing the area of the point and the surface area of the arrow shaft and fletching and slightly by choosing a very heavy point.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

HikerDave said:


> My 27 inch HPX / Medium Border Hex6 BB2 bow with 290 grain Carbon One 730 arrows, 30 inch draw, 36 pounds on the fingers yields 208 feet per second with bolts all the way out and brace height of 6 1/2 inches.
> 
> With bolts all the way in the draw weight on the fingers increases to 38 pounds and the speed is 218 feet per second.
> 
> ...


Agree. All you have to do is watch the world's top female archers shooting X10's out of 37-40lb bows (and much of the time outshooting the men) to realize that arrow speed is down the priority list for getting arrows in the gold. 

All other things being equal, then sure, faster limbs at the same DW would be helpful.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> However, unless you are shooting unmarked distances for field in light wind, arrow speed isn't really a factor.


How about shooting distances ranging from 7 yards to 80 yards, with uphill and downhill shots, without a sight and without stringwalking?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I have a set of Hex6 and they are very nice limbs, they have a different feel to other limbs and performance is very good, I don't see a huge increase over other brands but it is noticeable.

One of the top Swedish BB shooters gave a good report on various limbs and compared 60m scores on TT in that report he talked about SF Elite plus limbs, on the back of that report I decided to get a set, Alt Services has them on sale and I got a set as backup limbs, they look quality and for the price they're outstanding performance, not as fast as the Hex's but very smooth/stable shooting limbs, I'm impressed.

out to 50 yards I'm using the same crawls with the Hex6 and Elites, after that you see the Hex's have the edge. I think the Elites are more forgiving of Form errors. I will use the Elites for Indoors this season.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

then you need to be very good at range estimation...20fps isn't going to help with that.



ArcCaster said:


> How about shooting distances ranging from 7 yards to 80 yards, with uphill and downhill shots, without a sight and without stringwalking?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

ArcCaster said:


> How about shooting distances ranging from 7 yards to 80 yards, with uphill and downhill shots, without a sight and without stringwalking?


Again, all other things being equal, more speed is a benefit. But not at too much expense of 'the other things' - consistent form, forgiving tune, etc. 

If I get 20fps for free, then great (at least, once I then get new arrows and tune them properly to the new speed reality)! If there's a tradeoff, then maybe the speed benefit still overcomes the cost, maybe not. Only your time with the different setups will give you the answer.

If you want to shoot the faster arrow speed 'just to know', then by all means do it. It's not a tatoo, just knowledge/experience gained. No harm in that - and it may be a very productive move.


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

HikerDave said:


> My 27 inch HPX / Medium Border Hex6 BB2 bow with 290 grain Carbon One 730 arrows, 30 inch draw, 36 pounds on the fingers yields 208 feet per second with bolts all the way out and brace height of 6 1/2 inches.
> 
> With bolts all the way in the draw weight on the fingers increases to 38 pounds and the speed is 218 feet per second.
> 
> ...


Interesting that the hpx geometry only gives you a 2# swing with the borders.

My inno cxt gave me a 4.5# difference from backed out to cranked down with the hex 6


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

DruFire said:


> Interesting that the hpx geometry only gives you a 2# swing with the borders.
> 
> My inno cxt gave me a 4.5# difference from backed out to cranked down with the hex 6


I am guessing that the 36# is not with the bolts backed off all the way, the HPX should have the same amount of adjustment as any other hoyt riser.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Border Hex series, or if you want a conventional geometry then the Border CV or SF Elite Plus.

-Grant


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Fury90flier said:


> then you need to be very good at range estimation...20fps isn't going to help with that.


http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Equipment/ArrowSpeed.html

20 fps is going to change your cast by quite a bit.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

As others have already said, Border HEX6 limbs seem to be the fastest available. More importantly, once you get the tune right (which requires you to leave your preconceptions about tuning at the door) I have found them very forgiving of release errors.

That being said, there are many mass-produced fast limbs available, such as the W&W/SF range.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

lksseven said:


> Agree. All you have to do is watch the world's top female archers shooting X10's out of 37-40lb bows (and much of the time outshooting the men) to realize that arrow speed is down the priority list for getting arrows in the gold.
> 
> All other things being equal, then sure, faster limbs at the same DW would be helpful.


I would like to see a proof for that  What you probably meant was Korean women archers often outscore best men archers.....but generally top guys still shooting higher scores then girls...


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

gif said:


> I am guessing that the 36# is not with the bolts backed off all the way, the HPX should have the same amount of adjustment as any other hoyt riser.


Bolts out to bolts in on my HPX / Hex6 abomination gains only 2 pounds, but the speed increases from 208 to 218.

Formula risers have less adjustment range than ILF risers because the distance between the tiller bolt and the dovetail is less.

My Border limbs only gain one pound between 29 and 30 inches. If I move the limb tips forward an inch by cranking down the tiller bolts would expect an equivalent weight gain -- these limbs act differently as compared to the classic Hoyt design.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Borderbows said:


> http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Equipment/ArrowSpeed.html
> 
> 20 fps is going to change your cast by quite a bit.


not at all. The only thing 20fps changes is where you hold.

I believe you misunderstood the information you posted. Your link really dosn't have anything to do with the discussion...a 180fps arrow is just as accurate as a 200fps arrow


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Fury90flier said:


> The only thing 20fps changes is where you hold.
> 
> a 180fps arrow is just as accurate as a 200fps arrow


Maybe the question isn't about accuracy -- maybe it is about forgiveness. If you arrowr is coming down at a 45 degree angle, being off a tad will affect where it hits more than if your arrow is flying flat and you are off by a tad.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

not sure I do misunderstand the information I posted, I posted it to show the sightmark distance different with 5fps difference.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

ArcCaster said:


> Maybe the question isn't about accuracy -- maybe it is about forgiveness. If you arrowr is coming down at a 45 degree angle, being off a tad will affect where it hits more than if your arrow is flying flat and you are off by a tad.


and while your up that extra 6 foot in the air, you might be picking up more side winds...
but while your also up in the air, your also subject to more air time... That's probably why all the top bows advertise more speed in every iteration of limb released


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> I would like to see a proof for that  What you probably meant was Korean women archers often outscore best men archers.....but generally top guys still shooting higher scores then girls...


To expand on what I _meant_ - in many of the gold medal matches I've watched in world cup competitions on youtube, a noticeable/significant amount of the time the women - at 70meters - are shooting more 10's than are the men in their gold medal matches. It's anecdotal observation to buttress the general assertion that X10's fly just fine out of 37-40lb draw weight setups. 

If arrow speed were the only or the dominant determinant, then why aren't the men shooting lightweight arrows at 240fps? The answer's obvious. 

And the larger point is that these women - X10's shooting X10 arrows out of 37 - 40lb draw weight bows - are shooting many more 10's and MUCH higher scores than anyone on this forum shoots, and diminishes the comparative relevance of a discussion here of whether higher draw weights and/or faster arrow speeds = higher scores. Like I said previously, faster arrow speeds are a benefit, all other things being equal - which they almost never are.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Fast AND forgiving don't always come in the same package. Look what top Olympians and field shooters use to give you perspective. You will see a wide variety there.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Bigjono said:


> Fast AND forgiving don't always come in the same package. Look what top Olympians and field shooters use to give you perspective. You will see a wide variety there.


...i take what the olympians and professional archers use with a grain of salt...most if not all get their equipment free or almost free..

i would rather refer to opinions/tests made by elite amateur archers i respect who have similar physical traits as myself and shoot similar poundages and draw lengths----but that's just me.

PS: btw i DO agree on the Borders...look at my signature.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

jmvargas said:


> ...i take what the olympians and professional archers use with a grain of salt...most if not all get their equipment free or almost free..
> 
> i would rather refer to opinions/tests made by elite amateur archers i respect who have similar physical traits as myself and shoot similar poundages and draw lengths----but that's just me.
> 
> PS: btw i DO agree on the Borders...look at my signature.


SO your saying that if the top Olympic archers could shoot a different limb and get better scores (hence wins) then they would NOT because the had to pay for it? LOL *NOW THATS JUST FUNNY*! There is a reason that the top OLY archers are not shooting fast UNFORGIVING limbs. I can tell you I sold my super recurve fast limbs that are mentioned here and use a almost as fast, but forgiving limbs (SF ELITE PLUS). Besides I like customer service that the companies first reaction isn't that it is the customers fault.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

rsarns said:


> SO your saying that if the top Olympic archers could shoot a different limb and get better scores (hence wins) then they would NOT because the had to pay for it? LOL *NOW THATS JUST FUNNY*! There is a reason that the top OLY archers are not shooting fast UNFORGIVING limbs. I can tell you I sold my super recurve fast limbs that are mentioned here and use a almost as fast, but forgiving limbs (SF ELITE PLUS). Besides I like customer service that the companies first reaction isn't that it is the customers fault.


....YES...plus they would probably lose whatever perks they presently get from their sponsors..


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

HikerDave said:


> Bolts out to bolts in on my HPX / Hex6 abomination gains only 2 pounds, but the speed increases from 208 to 218.
> 
> *Formula risers have less adjustment range than ILF risers because the distance between the tiller bolt and the dovetail is less.
> *
> My Border limbs only gain one pound between 29 and 30 inches. If I move the limb tips forward an inch by cranking down the tiller bolts would expect an equivalent weight gain -- these limbs act differently as compared to the classic Hoyt design.


Not trying to get off topic here, but my RX has almost 6# of adjustment with my F4s. Could it just be the smoothness of the border limb that causes the low amount of adjustment? If so that could be a downside to an otherwise very good limb.
I can't see how the HPX riser geometry could affect limb adjustment that much, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

to the OP. yes the Hex6H BB2's are fast, I got a whopping 6 FPS faster than my standard limbs, but to do that I had to use a 6 3/4 BH and I IMHO did not like the groups I shot in comparison to my other limbs. I will give up speed all day for a more forgiving limb. My indoor Barebow scores have jumped 7-10 points per round since switching back to my other limbs, not bad on a 30 arrow Vegas round. So if its that big of an impact at 18 meters, I can imagine how much better it will be at 90 M's. I will say that there are those who shoot these limbs outstanding and you cannot argue with their success, I just did not get that comfort level in them.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

Has anyone compared the SF Elite Plus to the Samick Extreme or Uukha EX1's? I have some Lancaster gift cards to unload. These 3 are all priced the same.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I have both the SF Elite Plus and the Uukha UX 100's, totally different feel, but I can tell you the SF Elite Plus are on my bow and the Uukha's (which are great) are not. Now I just received a set of the SF Ult Pro's and have not spent enough time with them, but they are considerably faster (point on about 4 yards farther) than the Elite Plus, but the Elite Plus are smoother at my 30.5" DL.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

steve morley said:


> I have a set of Hex6 and they are very nice limbs, they have a different feel to other limbs and performance is very good, I don't see a huge increase over other brands but it is noticeable.
> 
> One of the top Swedish BB shooters gave a good report on various limbs and compared 60m scores on TT in that report he talked about SF Elite plus limbs, on the back of that report I decided to get a set, Alt Services has them on sale and I got a set as backup limbs, they look quality and for the price they're outstanding performance, not as fast as the Hex's but very smooth/stable shooting limbs, I'm impressed.
> 
> out to 50 yards I'm using the same crawls with the Hex6 and Elites, after that you see the Hex's have the edge. I think the Elites are more forgiving of Form errors. I will use the Elites for Indoors this season.


Steve,

Are you using the same arrows for both? I've found my Hex6 have some very different spine characteristics.

-Grant


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

lksseven said:


> If arrow speed were the only or the dominant determinant, then why aren't the men shooting lightweight arrows at 240fps? The answer's obvious.
> 
> [/U]


I am not sure it IS obvious. I have heard that light arrows are 'twitchy' -- they pick up and react to any imperfection in your shot. Same if you go from an 18-strand string to a 14 strand -- the 14 strand is faster, but again, it also reacts more to any shot imperfections.

I am not sure fast limbs are in the same category as light arrows and low-strand strings.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

ArcCaster said:


> I am not sure it IS obvious. I have heard that light arrows are 'twitchy' -- they pick up and react to any imperfection in your shot. Same if you go from an 18-strand string to a 14 strand -- the 14 strand is faster, but again, it also reacts more to any shot imperfections.
> 
> I am not sure fast limbs are in the same category as light arrows and low-strand strings.


I've clearly stated in three posts on this thread that "sure, more arrow speed is a benefit, all other things being equal - but they almost never are." Not sure how I could more clearly contend that arrow speed isn't the 'end all'. Your post seems to start off disputing my contention by saying you're not so sure that it _is_ obvious why the Olympic guys aren't shooting a light arrow that could be propelled at 240fps. But then you go on to talk about the drawbacks to light arrows - twitchy, less forgiving .... which, ahem, is seeming to agree with the "speed isn't the end all" position. ??? 

It's certainly obvious to many why the Olympic guys aren't shooting light arrows to max their speed - everything is subject to a cost/benefit calculus. The fact that the world stage archers aren't all trying to shoot 240/250fps reveals that the cost/benefit calculus doesn't favor what it takes to get to 240 or 250fps.

How are 'fast limbs' not in the same boat as light arrows or skinny strings? More speed derived from "fill in the blank" would be beneficial, if all other things/factors are equal. But the reality is that all those other factors are almost never equal/unchanged/unaffected by whatever gained the speed. If speed is gained from: More draw weight - has the archer lost some control/domination at the higher weight? Is his 72nd draw as controlled as his first arrow? Skinny strings - less forgiving. Light arrows - less forgiving, bleed off speed quicker and carry less punch downrange, thus more affected by wind at distance. Faster limbs through whatever technology/design variation - a lot of people shooting fast brand X limbs might love them, but a lot of other people may find that the extra speed comes with a cost that is greater than the speed benefit - less forgiving maybe, or less stable, or ??? 

So, isn't the question "Is there any cost to the gain?" And isn't the followup question "If there is a cost to the gain (and there always is), then will the gain offset the cost?" Plug in whatever variable one wishes to plug in (limbs, arrows, string, poundage, stab weight, NTS vs Korean vs Italian form methodology) and those questions are relevant.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

rsarns said:


> SO your saying that if the top Olympic archers could shoot a different limb and get better scores (hence wins) then they would NOT because the had to pay for it? LOL *NOW THATS JUST FUNNY*! There is a reason that the top OLY archers are not shooting fast UNFORGIVING limbs.


What, like the Hoyt FX limb, which even a Hoyt representative at a public seminar told the room was a twitchy limb if you were off your game?

Additionally, I have been told by a sponsored three-time Olympian and world championship medal holder that he would shoot limbs made by a small manufacturer if he could (and in fact used to before he was sponsored), but that his main sponsor would withdraw all his funding if he did.

Finally, I have shot with and even had coaching from some extremely talented archers and coaches. Not a single one has criticised my choice of limb (Border), and in fact several have praised them, including Mr Park of W&W.

Granted this is all just hearsay, but the logic is fairly simple: there isn't much money in archery, so if you want to compete at the top level you work on perfecting your form and mental game - which is what actually wins medals - and get the best equipment you can that will come with financial support.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

lksseven said:


> To expand on what I _meant_ - in many of the gold medal matches I've watched in world cup competitions on youtube, a noticeable/significant amount of the time the women - at 70meters - are shooting more 10's than are the men in their gold medal matches. It's anecdotal observation to buttress the general assertion that X10's fly just fine out of 37-40lb draw weight setups.
> 
> If arrow speed were the only or the dominant determinant, then why aren't the men shooting lightweight arrows at 240fps? The answer's obvious.
> 
> And the larger point is that these women - X10's shooting X10 arrows out of 37 - 40lb draw weight bows - are shooting many more 10's and MUCH higher scores than anyone on this forum shoots, and diminishes the comparative relevance of a discussion here of whether higher draw weights and/or faster arrow speeds = higher scores. Like I said previously, faster arrow speeds are a benefit, all other things being equal - which they almost never are.


I agree with what you say about arrow speed Regards women shooting better than men in H2H is more to archers - for me ranking rounds say more, but its dosn matter really....

The reason top men shooting higher poundage than top women is generaly DL...they need more poundage to get similar speed because their arrow weight more IMO.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

John_K said:


> What, like the Hoyt FX limb, which even a Hoyt representative at a public seminar told the room was a twitchy limb if you were off your game?
> 
> Additionally, I have been told by a sponsored three-time Olympian and world championship medal holder that he would shoot limbs made by a small manufacturer if he could (and in fact used to before he was sponsored), but that his main sponsor would withdraw all his funding if he did.
> 
> ...


Please don't forget not all top archers are living from sponsors money, some teams are fund by their goverments (or are on pro team like koreans) and I'm sure they shoot what's working best for them ..... and still yet to see these archers to shoot HEX series limbs.

Saying that I liked the Hex-6 very much and if they lasted I will probably still shoot them.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Steve,
> 
> Are you using the same arrows for both? I've found my Hex6 have some very different spine characteristics.
> 
> -Grant


I was using 610 Navs 100g points Arizona vanes for both limbs, just for comparison but the Elites will be shot with a Moon riser 3D setup using Lightspeeds and the Hex6's will be used with new Stolid Bull Vanquish Riser for Field with the Navs.

Iksseven faster limbs give you the option to shoot a lighter draw and heavier arrow, which is what I did with the Hex6, Pro limbs I had before were 43# set at max preload the Hex6 42# with one turn in and I still gained 5yards on my point on. I have a smoother more controlled draw and still have more speed, the other benefit was they are very smooth in the last inch of draw which was my main reason for getting them. 

I have not shot every limb out there but I have shot a few the Hex's win hands down on performance, we all shoot different disciplines so the goals of a Target archer my be different to a Field Archer so having a choice of limbs the have slightly different qualities is a good thing for all of us.

If money is no object then the Hex limb is I feel the fastest you can get, if you're on a tight budget then the Elite plus limbs are in my opinion almost as good as any of the other high end limbs that cost twice as much. Two options both ends of the scale.:thumbs_up


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

jmvargas said:


> ...i take what the olympians and professional archers use with a grain of salt...most if not all get their equipment free or almost free..
> 
> i would rather refer to opinions/tests made by elite amateur archers i respect who have similar physical traits as myself and shoot similar poundages and draw lengths----but that's just me.
> 
> PS: btw i DO agree on the Borders...look at my signature.


I agree up to a point. Oly archers only stay in national squads based in results so will use whatever advantage they can get away with.
For us, the top field shooters may be a better yardstick. They buy their own gear so choose the best tools for the job based on no financial incentive. I am sure someone can spirit up equipment lists from the last couple of big field champs for us to judge by.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Please don't forget not all top archers are living from sponsors money, some teams are fund by their goverments (or are on pro team like koreans) and I'm sure they shoot what's working best for them ..... and still yet to see these archers to shoot HEX series limbs.
> 
> Saying that I liked the Hex-6 very much and if they lasted I will probably still shoot them.


Good point. However, sponsorship isn't just on a personal basis. National teams are often given discounted or free equipment. This, for example, may well explain why some members of the Italian team shoot Italian-made risers.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Bigjono said:


> I agree up to a point. Oly archers only stay in national squads based in results so will use whatever advantage they can get away with.
> For us, the top field shooters may be a better yardstick. They buy their own gear so choose the best tools for the job based on no financial incentive. I am sure someone can spirit up equipment lists from the last couple of big field champs for us to judge by.


..i also agree with you on this...

i only shoot olympic archery myself but will always value the opinion of those who pay for their equipment more vs those who do not...


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

John_K said:


> Good point. However, sponsorship isn't just on a personal basis. National teams are often given discounted or free equipment. This, for example, may well explain why some members of the Italian team shoot Italian-made risers.


Maybe, but countries as China or Russia do not need this....what they want is medals.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Jeb-D. said:


> Has anyone compared the SF Elite Plus to the Samick Extreme or Uukha EX1's? I have some Lancaster gift cards to unload. These 3 are all priced the same.


There is a comparison of Uukha, Samick/Win Win, Border---can't find it...maybe someone here can help. I believe the thread was on tradtalk, but I can't locate it.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Please don't forget not all top archers are living from sponsors money, some teams are fund by their goverments (or are on pro team like koreans) and I'm sure they shoot what's working best for them ..... and still yet to see these archers to shoot HEX series limbs.
> 
> Saying that I liked the Hex-6 very much and if they lasted I will probably still shoot them.



....the only archers who can shoot whatever is working best for them are those who pay 100% for their equipment...

there are some manufacturers who will jump at the chance of giving free equipment to elite archers who ask for them but there are some who won"t...

BTW i see this being done in other sports too--ie--golf..athletics..shooting..triathlon..practical shooting..etc....

most elite athletes--or their agents--will shop around for the best deal for them and it will normally include getting free stuff plus some cash and will discount other companies who will not give that deal to them...even if that company has proven better performing products..

...and i don't blame them one bit---i would probably do the same if i were in their shoes..


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_Iksseven faster limbs give you the option to shoot a lighter draw and heavier arrow, which is what I did with the Hex6, Pro limbs I had before were 43# set at max preload the Hex6 42# with one turn in and I still gained 5yards on my point on. I have a smoother more controlled draw and still have more speed, the other benefit was they are very smooth in the last inch of draw which was my main reason for getting them. _

Steve,

Agree that faster limbs provide a number of upsides (and congrats on happening on such a good match for you!). My caveat to others reading this is just that there may well be a draw back to particular limbs that are faster (not that there 'has' to be a drawback, but there usually is - the trick is whether the drawback more or less counters the advantage of the faster limb) - that 'faster' isn't the only or even the most important variable. Is the faster limb 'whippier' and thus less consistent? Is the faster limb less substantial in its design, and thus more likely to fail/break before its time? Does the faster limb stack at a spot in _your _draw length/hold that is uncomfortable/off putting for you (maybe, but maybe not - maybe it begins to stack at exactly the spot in your draw/hold that you want it to, which would be sweet)? Questions that anyone should try to get answers to before jumping in. And as you say, the speed gain in your case was secondary to the smoothness of the draw in the last inch ... that's exactly the kind of calculus I would hope everyone reading this thread would incorporate into their figuring.

Two years ago I was shooting Hoyt F3 38lb medium limbs - smooth, consistent, and slow. Worked up to 42lb F3 limbs (bought them from a very good archer who was selling them because they were too slow for him) - very consistent limbs, but kind of slow. Switched to another brand of limb, 42lb - gained 7fps ... wow ... Nice - like Viper1 would say, Free Horsepower! But the new limbs, while smooth and fast, didn't let me shoot the same scores consistently as did the F3's ... I think they were a little whippier/less torsionally rigid and thus less forgiving to some of my ham-handed releases.

Then I decided that I was too old (57) to keep shooting 42lb limbs, and that my draw length needed to be spread out more. So dropped to 40lb limbs (but not F3's - went with a newer, faster limb design), dialed the limb bolts out to 39lb draw weight, lengthened my draw length over an inch, and shot the best scores of my career the last half of the outdoor season. And my last setup also included getting a superb 'arrow setup/bow setup/me setup' tuning match, so maybe most of the fuss benefit was just about the 'almost perfect marriage of arrows to bow to me' ... I don't know for sure.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Look at the NFAA Indoor nationals, of the 40 some in the Traditional category, 1 had a set of other than standard geometry limbs. At the Outdoor championships, not one pair of non-standard limbs. These all are people who pay for their own equipment, not a pair at Vegas (World Archery Festival either). There were owners of those style limbs there but they all decided to shoot other limbs and they do not have sponsors. Look at the comparison done by Martin and see what he said about the consistency of these limbs...


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

IKSseven I agree, you have to look at the whole package when selecting a limb and I looked and read up as much as I could on a short list of 5 different limbs and asked Archers their opinions on their current limbs and what other limbs they used in the past. I'm not tall so I doubt I will ever see the blistering speed some Hex6 owners talk about, I'm pleased with the whole package that limb gives me, it's a good match.

I haven't really had enough time to seriously compare the Elite plus against the Hex6 but my first impression was the Elites shot more consistent and although the groups were nice they never gave me that feeling on release (before arrow even left the bow) "I've nailed the X", the Hex's do but they also punish me more for a less than perfect release, lucky for me I have solid form so I don't see it as an issue. If I have an off day I'm not going to win anyway (regardless of limb), if I'm shooting well the Hex's bring out the very best in my shooting. 

I've had the Hex6's a few months now, the first 4 weeks I shot them, 3 National records, took 2nd at Euro Fields and missed Animal WR buy 8 points on a very tough up/down course


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

jmvargas said:


> ....the only archers who can shoot whatever is working best for them are those who pay 100% for their equipment...
> 
> there are some manufacturers who will jump at the chance of giving free equipment to elite archers who ask for them but there are some who won"t...
> 
> ...


well there is problem with this bit......how you want to prove it in archery?

also ....so you saying that chinese team members will refuse "superior" limbs which can help them to win a olympic gold??


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

The over 50 group at the NFAA Outdoor Nats broke that record by a ton. The champ shot a 530 in the Animal round on the toughest course in the US, Darrington. He was shooting F7 limbs, the 2nd place finisher was shooting a wooden riser and wood limbs he made and shot a 503. They broke all the previous Nat Field records in field, hunter and of course the animal round. I won't mention the archers name, but his user name ends in 2314....LOL 

My biggest issue was the accusations when my first set came apart after one month that it was my fault, ad believe me I followed all of the recommendations for these limbs, BH, arrow weight, used their provided stringer etc... and they splintered anyway. It took several emails before Sid finally admitted they might have been bad. They then sent me a 2nd set, I sold them immediately. After trying many different limbs, Sid suggested I buy another set, which I did, including a set of 5W's for Indoors. The HEX6H BB2's although fast I could not get to shoot consistent. Sid emailed me to help, then after one email he posted a tread on TT pretty much slamming me for using the Beiter gauge to align limbs, and then set me an insulting email regarding my ability to setup and tune a bow. Heck, if we are listing accomplishments, 4 Nationals, and hold 9 state records. However, I apparently cannot setup a freaking bow? Then when I put the limbs up for sale, he posted crap about selling them close to the purchase price... heck I am saving someone the ridiculous $80 shipping he charges. SO if all you want is speed and poor customer service.... you know where to go.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Ren. not sure it reads that way from my email list.
Slamming you?
insulting you?...

i gave you my private personal email so we could correspond over the weekend when i wasnt in the office to get your emails.

why. simply why would i go out my way to insult you?
i did say i wouldnt trust beiter guages. i wouldnt use them to align a bow.

did i appologuise profusly for any insult that wasnt intended?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I wouldn't use a beiter gauge either...no need to. I use a carpenters square--simply measure from the edge to the string--get all 4 distances equal--much more accurate way to get alignment.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Fury90flier said:


> I wouldn't use a beiter gauge either...no need to. I use a carpenters square--simply measure from the edge to the string--get all 4 distances equal--much more accurate way to get alignment.


yes. because your working on the limb face and not an elevated surface.
a ridge of varnish on one side or the guage not put flat on the limb surface can cause the high off the surface of the guage to be on the squint. causing a miss reading.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> well there is problem with this bit......how you want to prove it in archery?
> 
> also ....so you saying that chinese team members will refuse "superior" limbs which can help them to win a olympic gold??



...assuming there is complete objectivity i believe it will not be that difficult to determine which product will perform better for an individual----based on their own criteria..

the chinese--or any other sponsored/funded team--will use whatever equipment is made available to them..

.....and the truly elite ones will make it work......for them.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> I wouldn't use a beiter gauge either...no need to. I use a carpenters square--simply measure from the edge to the string--get all 4 distances equal--much more accurate way to get alignment.


I followed John Mageras thread and instructions of making sure the bow was "on plane" and it works well.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

rsarns said:


> I followed John Mageras thread and instructions of making sure the bow was "on plane" and it works well.
> 
> Sid, I m so done with you and your spin doctoring of everything. Your quote here says it all - did i appologuise profusly for any insult that *wasnt intended*? So the others were intended?


if you done with it... why drag it up again... you post was more about personality than the OPs post.

yes. pick on the symantics. read more into something that was intended.
Sorry i cause offence. im sorry.
i did not intend to.
it was not what i meant to do.
i do not want to insult you.
ive said this before by pm.

it is possible to have an alignment issue if you focus on one aspect of bow alignment. limbwalkers post is about the string tracking through the centre of the riser.
it is possible to have a setup where the limbs are not able to track straight even though the string runs through centre.
if both limb pads are rotationally out. then you can have all sorts of problems.
but. i was trying to explore this with you to see if i could help.

lateral adjustment will never cure rotational alignment issues.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

jmvargas said:


> ...assuming there is complete objectivity i believe it will not be that difficult to determine which product will perform better for an individual----based on their own criteria..the chinese--or any other sponsored/funded team--will use whatever equipment is made available to them..
> 
> .....and the truly elite ones will make it work......for them.


Yes no dispute there....so for different individual will be differen result....but if you want to claim "proven better performing products" with out any results at top competitions?

re - the teams.....you still not getting my point....they have enough money to buy the best and their goverments want medals, not sponsorship deals...if there were superior limbs which give you 5-10 points on Fita-70 they would shoot it...


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

rsarns said:


> the ridiculous $80 shipping he charges.


$80 for 3 day shipping from Scotland..

Try to send a package back to him 3day and see what it cost you. 

Cost me 65$ for a 10day delivery.
Quotes were 170-340 for 3day.

His shipping charges are fine.

The rest of the conversation I'll stay out of.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

rsarns said:


> The over 50 group at the NFAA Outdoor Nats broke that record by a ton. The champ shot a 530 in the Animal round on the toughest course in the US, Darrington. He was shooting F7 limbs, the 2nd place finisher was shooting a wooden riser and wood limbs he made and shot a 503. They broke all the previous Nat Field records in field, hunter and of course the animal round. I won't mention the archers name, but his user name ends in 2314....LOL
> 
> My biggest issue was the accusations when my first set came apart after one month that it was my fault, ad believe me I followed all of the recommendations for these limbs, BH, arrow weight, used their provided stringer etc... and they splintered anyway. It took several emails before Sid finally admitted they might have been bad. They then sent me a 2nd set, I sold them immediately. After trying many different limbs, Sid suggested I buy another set, which I did, including a set of 5W's for Indoors. The HEX6H BB2's although fast I could not get to shoot consistent. Sid emailed me to help, then after one email he posted a tread on TT pretty much slamming me for using the Beiter gauge to align limbs, and then set me an insulting email regarding my ability to setup and tune a bow. Heck, if we are listing accomplishments, 4 Nationals, and hold 9 state records. However, I apparently cannot setup a freaking bow? Then when I put the limbs up for sale, he posted crap about selling them close to the purchase price... heck I am saving someone the ridiculous $80 shipping he charges. SO if all you want is speed and poor customer service.... you know where to go.


I sadly no longer shoot Hex-6, but never expirienced customer service like that - it was always very good a fair. I would say there must be miscomunication or something lost in translation (to Scotish  ).


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

With HEX6 limbs the Beiter gauges alone are not sufficient to ensure perfect alignment. You need to give consideration to the position of the limb nocks. 
This isn't a problem with conventionally shaped limbs as you can see the limb tips while using the gauges but with the HEX6 limbs you can't.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

the best limbs i ever shot were Samick Masters, then Samick extremes and now MK Korea Veras. All made by the same company and guy. 

Fast, smooth and accurate. Very dependable limbs and always high quality. 


Chris


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Greysides said:


> With HEX6 limbs the Beiter gauges alone are not sufficient to ensure perfect alignment. You need to give consideration to the position of the limb nocks.
> This isn't a problem with conventionally shaped limbs as you can see the limb tips while using the gauges but with the HEX6 limbs you can't.


That is a valid point Grey, but a quick question if they are aligned (or should I say in alignment) at several points along the limb, should the rest of the limb not be in alignment?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

there are three dimensions to alignment.
yaw pitch and roll.

pitch is covered by the limb bolt amd is adjustable.
yaw is covered by lateral adjustment
roll is not covered at all.
since the limb shape is 3d. 
tiller checks out limb pad angles/ tiller.
beiter guages check out lateral adjustment.
and limb walkers post makes sure riser deflex puts the grip in this same plane.
but like the leaning tower of piza. from certain angles looks upright.
but you still have to check the tips are standing upright.
the problem sits in ignoring this last feature means the limb tracking is out.
and using lateral adjustment to make the limb more central means it would then fail the beiter guages.

as you would need to push the limb to one side to get the tip to stand up.

like a fork lift truck must keep itsweight inside its wheel base. lateral adjustment would be like moving the pallet to one aide to counteract the ground not being level.
beiter guages only account for looking at the fork lift side on.
there is a chance that the ground is not level from a front view.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

If speed is a big consideration then Border Hex 6 bb2 limbs are pretty much the ultimate answer right now. With my two set ups I saw a very big and real difference. My Samick Athlete Carbon Foam limbs gave me 200 fps on the dot with 45 (ish) lbs @29.75 inch draw, 350 grain (calculated, not measured) carbon one 500 spine. The arrow was a little bit longer than my draw length, perhaps about 3/4 of an inch (all details there are IIRC)

Current set up with Hex 6 S bb2 limbs gives 220 with 47 (ish) lbs on the fingers for the same arrow, though I had to cut off the excess so nock to tip of point was equal to my draw length. Fractionally weak - bare shafts right by about a foot at 70 meters. Have it set up to shoot 2315 x7s with 200 grain pro pins at the moment. Had to leave those long to spine. 183 fps with those at about 580 - 590 grains (calculated, not measured). When finances allow, very much looking forward to shooting something like x10 arrows from them as I just have fantastic fun shooting these limbs every time I do.

Much more stable than the athletes. The difference is quite remarkable in how much less they want to move in any direction other than forwards. I have found they are more forgiving generally of a release error but this is very subjective. 
They are "a different animal" though. You need a bit of time to get used to the new tuning criteria.

Expensive limbs yes, but if you like how they feel and the extra speed makes you smile you wouldn't look back. They do feel very different. The words "compound" and "let-off" get thrown around a lot when other people try them


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

rsarns said:


> That is a valid point Grey, but a quick question if they are aligned (or should I say in alignment) at several points along the limb, should the rest of the limb not be in alignment?


As I understand the question, no. As much of the limb as you can see may appear to be, and be, in alignment but a limb tip (the beak) may still be to one side. 

In other words the limb is slightly twisted along it's length. You can't see the 'beak' when you're behind the riser checking due to the extra curvature.

You'd need to look along the back side of the bow and check the 'beak' is central and not deviated.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Yes no dispute there....so for different individual will be differen result....but if you want to claim "proven better performing products" with out any results at top competitions?
> 
> re - the teams.....you still not getting my point....they have enough money to buy the best and their goverments want medals, not sponsorship deals...if there were superior limbs which give you 5-10 points on Fita-70 they would shoot it...



...as part of our national olympic archery committee with a tight budget we have been tasked of providing new equipment to our archers...

although there have been individual requests for specific brands/models from the athletes we cannot always provide what they want unless they are willing to provide part of the cost..

some are able to do that and some cannot..

those who cannot are limited to using the old equipment they already have---or use the free equipment provided..

most opt to use the free stuff and try their to make it work----and they do.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

jmvargas said:


> ...as part of our national olympic archery committee with a tight budget we have been tasked of providing new equipment to our archers...
> 
> although there have been individual requests for specific brands/models from the athletes we cannot always provide what they want unless they are willing to provide part of the cost..
> 
> ...


Yes, same in most western countries think, it's why I said russia/china as there are countries where athletes are paid by goverments very well (compare to their countrymen) so they have freedom to choose what they want.


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