# VAP SS insert question



## Equinox86 (Jul 28, 2011)

Earlier this year I bought some Victory VAPs without the Penetrator inserts. 

Had the bright idea to try the HT-1 Harvest Time Stainless steel inserts in them. Didnt work.

So now that I have some VAP penetrator inserts on the way, I have an interesting problem.

Either I A) Use some goat tuff impact glue on the inserts and pray to God that they hold alongside the epoxy or...

B) I flip the arrow around, and put the inserts into the back end where the nock would normally go.

Any thoughts as to why plan B wouldnt work?


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

Plan B would work, the VAPs are the same regardless of the end. Not sure I quite understand your dilemma though. Are the old inserts glued in? Goat Tuff sucks as an insert glue. Use either a two part epoxy or Insert Iron for inserts.


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## Equinox86 (Jul 28, 2011)

After i had 3 inserts come out, i pulled out the rest by hand and set the vaps aside until later.

Havent gotten penetrator inserts in yet. 

Kinda debating on the Firenock aero outsert now however...


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## Longbow42 (Oct 31, 2008)

I use the SS inserts and they work great and have not had any come out and my bow has over 100# KE. I use Bohning Insert Iron though. It is the best insert glue that I have found. I also have some of the new Firenock outserts, They are great as expected from Dorge. I just hate outserts and hate the look of them on my shafts. The SS outserts at least taper into the shaft and look better IMO. Weight is the other difference between the two; SS weigh around 90-93 grains, Firenock are in the 30-33 grain range depending on the size for both.


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## monsterbuckrick (Aug 14, 2009)

I use the Firenock outserts on mine and use Insert iron. haven't had one bend, break or pull out since I put them on. I bent 7 out of 12 from the original Pentrator inserts shooting into a hard foam target. My bow shoots 330 fps so the inserts don't hold up for me. I believe the originals were 33gr aluminum.


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## Equinox86 (Jul 28, 2011)

Talked to Jerry at southshore archery for a while today. He gave a nod towards the firenock outserts. 

Says a lot about them when the guy doesn't even carry that product. 

Plus, with my setup the stainless may wind up making me underspined.

There any difference in penetration with the firenock outsert?


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Penetrator from victory is a Half out-insert design, which means the piece is half out and half in. The weakest link is size of the hole of the shaft, 0.166" and it is made of what I believe is 6061-T6 AL. None of the component over laps each other which means the concentricity of each components (point, insert, shaft) all rely on the half-out ability to hold up perfectly.

Firenock AeroOutsert as the name stated, is a full outsert so its strength is fundamentally large as it is a larger tube. And it also protects the arrow shaft as it covers the shaft from the outside. Not to mention, when you over lay all 3 majors (point, insert, shaft), the actually overlap each other in this design for about 5 mm. Last with 7075-T5 Aluminum to start, and use a gold forge process, the material is closer to a T6 which is about equal to the strength of stainless without the weight penalty. The Outsert system only added 17 mm to the overall shaft length, but due to the outsert design, you should add 13mm to your over all arrow length to clear the outsert. Unlike other outserts, Firenock AeroOutsert has Pat Pending Blood_Channel™ blood and air relief grooves which make it a whole lot easier to remove comparing to the traditional outserts.


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## Equinox86 (Jul 28, 2011)

Have you had a chance to do any side by side penetration tests yet Dorge?

Just curious. And thanks for your input!


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

What tests would you consider? Or you need technical spec comparison?


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## stkline81 (Dec 28, 2008)

> Have you had a chance to do any side by side penetration tests yet Dorge?
> 
> Just curious. And thanks for your input!


If someone wants to send me the different penetrator inserts I can do a ballistic gel test against the Firenock outserts & post the results.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Equinox86 (Jul 28, 2011)

Specifically?

I'd like to see steep angled shots. 
That, in my opinion is where I'd think the highest likelihood of a bend would occur.

A side by side would be pretty cool as well in the ballistic gel, but I'm curious to see them vs bone.


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## stkline81 (Dec 28, 2008)

My season starts in 2 weeks. I'll be able to get some bone from my deer or a butcher & test them against bone & into the gel. Again, I'd need the VAP Penetrator inserts to test against Dorge's outserts.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## BOWHUNTER-74 (Dec 16, 2008)

(My season starts in 2 weeks. I'll be able to get some bone from my deer or a butcher & test them against bone & into the gel. Again, I'd need the VAP Penetrator inserts to test against Dorge's outserts.)



I'VE GOT SOME OF THE INSERTS, I CAN SEND YA. I'M SHOOTING VAP 300'S. MY QUESTION FOR DORGE IS WHAT SIVE OUTSERTS DO I NEED, THE 6.06 OR 6.15. THE TIPS SAID TO GET THE SMALLER ONE AND LIGHTLY SAND THE SHAFT FOR A TIGHTER FIT.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

For VAP 300, the 6.06 is the correct one, below is the list of the size of the AeroOutserts


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## stkline81 (Dec 28, 2008)

BOWHUNTER-74 said:


> (My season starts in 2 weeks. I'll be able to get some bone from my deer or a butcher & test them against bone & into the gel. Again, I'd need the VAP Penetrator inserts to test against Dorge's outserts.)
> 
> 
> 
> I'VE GOT SOME OF THE INSERTS, I CAN SEND YA. I'M SHOOTING VAP 300'S. MY QUESTION FOR DORGE IS WHAT SIVE OUTSERTS DO I NEED, THE 6.06 OR 6.15. THE TIPS SAID TO GET THE SMALLER ONE AND LIGHTLY SAND THE SHAFT FOR A TIGHTER FIT.


Thanks, I'll PM you my info.


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## stkline81 (Dec 28, 2008)

I have some VAP aluminum 5/16 inserts on the way for testing. Anyone want to donate a stainless or two to test against the Firenock outsert & the VAP aluminum insert?

I'll test all 3 side by side into ballistic gel & then angled shots through bone (with the Ramcat broadhead).


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## gruen99sg (May 7, 2009)

This is all you need Firenock outserts


Steve Gruenwald 
www.stevearcheryarrows.com
815-830-2191


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## BOWHUNTER-74 (Dec 16, 2008)

stkline81 said:


> I have some VAP aluminum 5/16 inserts on the way for testing. Anyone want to donate a stainless or two to test against the Firenock outsert & the VAP aluminum insert?
> 
> I'll test all 3 side by side into ballistic gel & then angled shots through bone (with the Ramcat broadhead).


let me know when u get them. sent them out on mon.


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## FirstFreedom (Dec 3, 2006)

I'd say firenock aero outserts - I just ordered some - they look win-win-win to me (price-strength-performance).


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## stkline81 (Dec 28, 2008)

BOWHUNTER-74 said:


> let me know when u get them. sent them out on mon.


Finally got them... USPS had been REALLY slow for me recently. I have some stainless on the way too. Once I get those in I'll go ahead & test them all together!


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