# Limb alignment



## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Use Tuning Forks to get your riser and limbs working properly and centershot relative to the true bow plane. If the stabilizer or other accessories don't fall in plane, well, what does it matter? They aren't moving parts of the dynamic shot process.

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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

The stabilizer is used as a 3rd-axis reference. It's similar to what Tuning Forks do. The problem is that adjusting everything to the stab is backwards. It's like getting new tires and adjusting everything on the car to align with the tires (instead of aligning the tires to the car)

Like was mentioned above, the long stab is a passive component of the shot process and has no correlation to the 3D flex plane of the limbs. Using the stab as a ref might actually mis-align the limbs/introduce limb twist (but it would still look "right" with gauges). *If you have no other option for reference,* *it's better than just using gauges and bolt holes though.*

Tuning Forks make the limbs the priority, everything should line up to them (as best as possible within a dynamic system) since they launch the arrow. Align the limbs to get a unified limbplane, then adjust grip/sight/stab to match.

This is more important for non-elites though as shooting machines (read: Brady, Mackenzie) will still drive tacks with terribly matched equimpment.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The tuning forks you designed are one of the very best innovations I've seen in quite a while. Kudos to you!


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

There are so many tolerancies involved in searching one plane only , that you must be sure that all reference parts are close to perfect to look for a plane on all of them combined.
Anyhow, while for BB the plane including the long rod is less important, for recurve is a critical element as reaction at release may be very bad if LR is not on the plane and perpendicular to limbs. Serious Recurve shooters will ever include the Long rod in the align process (after making sure it is a good one), and when we check and align our risers, we ever include LR in case of doubts. 

If you say "Some stabs might not be dead straight or their bushing might not be in perfect alignment with the riser, they should be but often they're not" you are by definition accepting parts that are not as good as they should be for their purpose....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

For most instructional videos, it's better to use a simple concept that people can understand and easily follow. Telling people to line things up with the stabilizer isn't bad advice. Its something that makes sense and is easy to see. As those archers get deeper into the sport, they can make their own decision about what reference points to use. 

There is at least "some" logic in lining things up with the stabilizer, since the mass weight at the end of the stabilizer will resist torque and is by design intended to provide direction for the system as the string is released. 

But I think we all know that it's illogical to simply assume a stabilizer is going to be straight and on-plane. That just shouldn't be expected when you consider how many things would have to be perfectly milled, drilled, manufactured and glued for everything to come out straight.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Imma show this to Ms Brown *chuckle* ^_^


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

This has been an FAQ for a long time on the compound also; it still comes up there from time to time even today.

The short answer is you're not missing anything.
The long answer is as follows: your intuition about the imprecision of the longrod alignment is correct. Long rod bushings, mounting holes and faces, and long rod faces too, are not precision surfaces and their alignment, in general, shouldn't be relied on. If they were and were advertised as aligned to such and such precision, our handles and longrods would cost at least an order of magnitude more than they do right now. And given how hard it is already to keep selling new bows every year, I don't see manufacturers offering up this particular feature any time soon.

I agree with the others that the long rod is only a fair to middlin' poor-mans alignment tool, and reliable only to get a really out-of-whack bow into a ballpark whack and that's about it. 

To really get everything lined up the way you want it, my personal experience is disregarding the stabs or even slap taking them off the bow altogether, has given me the best results. A longrod a little off does no harm in shooting, but it can mislead your eye when checking the alignment of your setup on the bow itself.

That's of course my compound experience. On the recurve, it's literally years down the road for that level of meticulousness on my bow to make even the slightest difference in where my arrows go. Though my groups out in the woods are finally starting to improve a bit, I have to be sticking them in the bale on at least a semi-regular basis before I can even be trying to think about this one at full draw....

lee.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)




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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

"Woah."

Haha yes, in a dynamic system with tolerances and material properties subject to the influence of the biomechanical properties of us _meat bag finger flingers_, there is no "plane" but you need a starting point for system unity. Like limbwalker said, there's varying levels of complexity that different abilities need to surface. Stab is easy. The limb/bow plane stuff is a little harder to understand. Your intentional-offset method is galaxy-brain. :wink:


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## drolander1 (Aug 8, 2016)

I think alignment of the limbs to the riser is the foundation you need. The tuning forks are a step above the Beiter blocks and a fantastic tool for limb alignment. I found this guid which addresses the alignment of the limbs to the bow with the use of a level, plumb bob and Beiter Blocks. 

https://understandingarchery.wordpress.com/2019/08/16/recurve-string-alignment-a-better-method/

Ian uses Beiter blocks but I think Tuning forks would make the process more precise.

Cheers,


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

Vittorio said:


> There are so many tolerancies involved in searching one plane only , that you must be sure that all reference parts are close to perfect to look for a plane on all of them combined.
> Anyhow, while for BB the plane including the long rod is less important, for recurve is a critical element as reaction at release may be very bad if LR is not on the plane and perpendicular to limbs. Serious Recurve shooters will ever include the Long rod in the align process (after making sure it is a good one), and when we check and align our risers, we ever include LR in case of doubts.
> 
> If you say "Some stabs might not be dead straight or their bushing might not be in perfect alignment with the riser, they should be but often they're not" you are by definition accepting parts that are not as good as they should be for their purpose....


This. Also, it’s hard to fix a stabilizer or bolt hole that may not be straight. I find my arrows often end up pointing a little further left of the LR (right handed) on almost all of my setups. I use Tuning forks and Beiter blocks. 


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

Thank you, your replies are much appreciated and as always very informative.
Nick


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Gregjlongbow said:


> Also, it’s hard to fix a stabilizer or bolt hole that may not be straight.


Someone told me about this years ago to bring a stab inline:

Buy an adjustable (or small angled) stab mount and rotate it a little to bring the rod inline. You might also be able to add a washer or two to adjust the angle of that stab as well.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

kshet26 said:


> Someone told me about this years ago to bring a stab inline:
> 
> Buy an adjustable (or small angled) stab mount and rotate it a little to bring the rod inline. You might also be able to add a washer or two to adjust the angle of that stab as well.


I like this idea Keith - I'll have to try it as it is a little disconcerting when adjusting center shot and not being able to use the long rod as a reference. Any brand suggestions?

My son has been using my rods all summer for competition as he managed to slightly bend the mounting bolt on his - likely just crappy grade 3 bolt that I now need to swap for a grade 8. Think about the leverage on a 5/16x24 bolt holding a 36" v-bar system if it ever taps the ground after a shot...I use a shorter breaker bar to swap my winter tires out at 115 ft/lbs so I'll bet it's a lot of torque on that poor bolt!

ps: I'm in love with your forks and am so glad I bought 2 sets in the initial funding drive a year or two back...they are used with every limb swap and tuning setup I do! It always surprises me how much more they show than the Beiters...I've tried both side by side and there is no comparison at all. Well done!


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Maggie - I haven't tried this technique so I don't have any 1st-hand experience with it. A quick search of Lancaster shows a couple of angled quick disconnects. These are typically used on compounds but should be OK on a recurve? Note that they're quick disconnects, so I wouldn't rotate them too far. I think 8 degrees was the smallest angle I saw which may be too much, not sure. Depending on the direction/severity, washers might be better.

And glad you like the TFs. Thanks for backing.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

kshet26 said:


> Someone told me about this years ago to bring a stab inline:
> 
> Buy an adjustable (or small angled) stab mount and rotate it a little to bring the rod inline. You might also be able to add a washer or two to adjust the angle of that stab as well.


much easier to heat the end cap of the stab that is not straight to loosen the glue. Remove the end cap at the end where it attaches to the vbars/ bow. clean and reglue the end cap and align the rod correctly and let it dry. Most two mix epoxy will work. I use JB weld. 

I have done this with a number of stabs over the past years in my JOAD that were not straight. You just have to be sure to heat the end cap and not the carbon rod. It is similar to removing a point from a carbon arrow. If you just reglue it straight, it will then be straight on other risers/ bows. 

That is of course, if its the long rod that is not straight. If its the extension, you need to reglue that. or change the bolts etc. First step is to find what exactly is not straight. I deal with this briefly in my tuning video on Youtube. 



dealing with washers and angles and such usually are adding more muck to the problem. 

Chris


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I like that! Never thought to do it like that. Thanks Chris!


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Chris is right, many problems come from bad assembly of stabilizers. If too loose when glued, they may end up to be very far to be straight to their end- 

How to find if center bushing is properly aligned:

1) Use 3 long rods (checked to be as stright as possible) 
2) Screw in the long rods in the 3 front stabs bushings
3) Check if all 3 long rods end up to be on same plane (may be also swapping them in different holes)
4) usually the 3 front hole for stabs are made in the same phase of the process, so they should be aligned each other 
5) If everything is fine, then check if the outside of the window is also parallel to the lcente long rod (one of the 2 other long rods can do the job) 
6) Do not expect everything perfectly parallel or on plane, but close to it, yes. 
7) then you can do the alignement by the usual system with limbs gages /tuning forks or marking on limbs
8) the result should be an "AND", with limbs aligned to back of the riser AND to center stab 
9) if AND is not verified, milling planes of pockets are not perpendicular to the plane of the front rods

This AND function verified is what makes a good riser a perfect one for shooting any style (and our nightmare in QC) 

P.S : G1-25, G1-27, GQ-25, GT-25, GT-27, GT-29 risers have center long rod bushing with one mm offset, so this must be considered when aligning bow using center stabilizer 
G2-25, G2-23, GQ-23 have center bushing with no offset.


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## ibboone (Nov 10, 2015)

I’m a barebow shooter. 
I have been experimenting with limb alignment. Hers a picture of what I tried This makes the limb tips inline with the riser. If you were to draw a line from the tip of the limb down or up to the limb bolt locking screw. Everything looks good while looking at one limb at a time, but from tip to tip the center is correct, but the limb locking screws seem to be off to one side or the other. 

I attached arrows to each end of the limb tips so they would travel straight inline, or that’s my thought anyway. 

Dan


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As also a tolerance in strightness of the risers exists, supposing that the 2 limbs bolts are exactly aligned to the center axis of the riser is what it is, just an idea. Longer the riser, more the tolerance can be. The align system is needed for this, more than for limbs. This was stated by Earl Hoyt, first.. if i well remember ..


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I’d like to see Mackenzie do this video with a FAKTOR.......


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

"1) Use 3 long rods (checked to be as stright as possible)
2) Screw in the long rods in the 3 front stabs bushings
3) Check if all 3 long rods end up to be on same plane (may be also swapping them in different holes)"

For the budget minded: I use 1/4" threaded rod and metal ruler from Home Depot for this alignment check. Use a 1/4" nut to set the rods.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

From the photo perspective, the top limb needs to go to the left a milimeter. The bottom limb is about 1/4 inch out. Both are off. 

The arrows arent parallel really so i think they have no bearing on the riser limb alignment that i can see and i think dont add anything to the equation. If this was my bow, i would reset the limb shims to center (either 2 shims or 2.5 shims, whatever the manufacturer says) and then realign. 

This bow isnt centered with the limbs to riser or on plane. Of course photo could be skewing the perspective. But in the photo, the bottom limb in the pocket looks like its angled to the left. It doesnt look square in the pocket. Line the string up to the riser holes. 



Chris


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

theminoritydude said:


> I’d like to see Mackenzie do this video with a FAKTOR.......


I just looked at my inno a little while ago... against my better judgement, but.... And it's perfectly lined up, string centered and right through the bolt holes in the handle. Groups are still out in the woods, tho. Except for that time I got it in the target stand not too long ago but maybe my groups on the ground are getting a little tighter....

lee.


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## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

Im excited to try the tuning forks... Just ordered a set today.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Just used my "old" prototype Tuning Forks to check a setup. So simple. Only reason to continue using Beiter blocks is because you don't know tuning forks exist and you already have Beiter blocks.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

chrstphr said:


> much easier to heat the end cap of the stab that is not straight to loosen the glue. Remove the end cap at the end where it attaches to the vbars/ bow. clean and reglue the end cap and align the rod correctly and let it dry. Most two mix epoxy will work. I use JB weld.
> 
> I have done this with a number of stabs over the past years in my JOAD that were not straight. You just have to be sure to heat the end cap and not the carbon rod. It is similar to removing a point from a carbon arrow. If you just reglue it straight, it will then be straight on other risers/ bows.
> 
> ...


here you go 

https://youtu.be/fwSEaRx6dJc


Chris


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## Matt Zumbo (Jan 15, 2011)

We have developed a bow plane and limb alignment tuning system. Patent pending. All parts remain on the bow while aligning and shooting in the limbs. Super simple. Conventional techniques do not apply with this system. No more relying on and hoping your stabilizer is straight. We are still in the manufacturing phase, but do to all the recent posted we thought we would put it out there.

More photos to follow.









Matt


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> here you go
> 
> https://youtu.be/fwSEaRx6dJc
> 
> ...


Thank you Chris, your videos are very helpful and informative.
Nick


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