# How to stop cheating at the local level?



## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

Ok, Ive got a range in west Arkansas. Ive been dealing with rumors of people cheating since I opened the range last year. Last year was a stagger start. That left the door open for a lot of cheating. 

On to this year. Ive went to a shotgun start. That helped a little. I keep hearing about the same guy running down and pulling arrows before anybody can get there. 

This is what Im doing now. Ive offered a $25 bounty to anybody that can PROVE someone is cheating. We are now using 2 score cards. Any arrows pulled before both score cards are recorded will be counted as a zero. I break groups up so there is less chance of two people working together. Any other ideas????


What really makes me mad is these guys are cheating to win a $3.50 award! If thats all they want Ill give them one and they can go home and tell everybody how great they shot! I will not tollerate anybody cheating on my range. If they are caught, they will be banned for life from my range. If you guys (and girls) have any other ideas please let me know. Thanks.


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## GoosebyFLuFLu (Aug 12, 2011)

IF you have enough people you could have someone with each group as the scorekeeper. I know it might be tough if you don't have a bunch of volunteers but that is what we do for shooting tournaments. Hope this helps.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

What you're doing is about all you can do.....The one thing I would do is to have a talk with that fellow who is suspected, and tell him if he hears anyone complaining about his conduct, he's no longer allowed on your range. I'd rather piss one customer off than piss 50......


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Build a gallows, install a sign, Cheaters Swing!


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

If it is just some token award, just get rid of the award. This seems to be disagreed upon by 3d shooters, but I think a lot of local shooters are doing it just to have fun and practice. They are competing with the buddies they happen to be shooting with that day.

I don't know your exact details. I don't know that any of the shoots I attend are scantioned in any way.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

If you are the good shooter in your area stop shooting with your buddies and shoot with a new group every week and show everybody what a good shooter is and it will be harder for a guy who is 40 points worse than you to turn in a card that is high when he shoots with you and shows you what he really shoots like. There are many good shooters that never shoot with anyone but their buddies and the other shooters in the shoot only guess how good you really are, so go show them and then they will know.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

keep mike vicent off your range


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I like the Bounty Idea!!

I am curious though, has changing to shotgun start effected your attendance any? 
We do shotgun starts for the State Shoots and for team shoots, shop vs shop.

I have a couple of folks I need to addressat the next shoot, I am probably going to split them up and see how that goes.
People seem to like it that I am strict with the rules at our shoots, they know I don't put up with any shannigans.

As for awards, I gave the option at my last shoot the winners could choose from, a medal, a free shoot, or a gift certificate. 75% took the Medal (cost me about $4), 25% took the gift certificate ($15 value) and 0 took the free shoot ($15 value).
I have heard folks on here say, don't do awards nobody wants them, I shoot for fun to get better at hunting, blah blah.

Sorry, I just don't see it. People want to win something.

Anyway, back to subject. 
If I had the help I would assign scorekeepers to each group. This seems to be the only way to prevent cheating 100%


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

How does shotgun start prevent cheating anymore then a stagger start?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Make a rule any pulled arrows before everyone in group see them is DG or there arrow is scored a zero
You club will grow with this your doing
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kale said:


> How does shotgun start prevent cheating anymore then a stagger start?


You dont get to shoot with who ever. Groups are busted I would hope.
DB


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Kale said:


> How does shotgun start prevent cheating anymore then a stagger start?


You can group people in peer groups and they cannot shoot with their buddies.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Peer grouping and double score cards are the best ways to keep the cheating out. It just amazes me what some one will do for a $4.00 prize.Lol


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## bowhunter_va_28 (Apr 28, 2003)

Set up a few targets in view of the clubhouse and have a shootoff between the top 3 shooters for a bonus prize(free round). Make it mandatory.

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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

you doing right... break up groups, no arrows will be pulled till scored...


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## Jargon (Apr 23, 2011)

You know in sporting clays at bigger events they have scorers at each station. Sometimes they have boy scouts or a local high school swim team (or whatever, you get the idea) to come in and do the scoring (have 1 or 2 scorers on each target). They are told that if anyone argues the call, to summon a field ranger on the course to straighten out any disagreements. They get "paid" or a donation is made to their organization for their help. Have a jug at registration for tips to go towards them, or have a fun side game (like shooting balloons or a moving cardboard targets, you get the idea) for a small prize. So, charge 2 bucks to get 3 shots at balloons at 20, 30, 40 yards. Get a raffle ticket for each broken balloon and winner gets 1/2 dozen arrows or something. Take that money and put that towards the scorers as well. Some have held bake sales from the scorers (in my example it was a swim team) so they made tips, got some money from a fun side game, and from the bake sale, truly making it worth their while.

How many times to schools or organizations need to fundraise for something or another. This would also expose archery to other people outside the sport currently (Hopefully, they have a positive experience). Usually have them show up the day before and have a 30 or 45 minute meeting on what to do and how to score and to make sure they call a Field Ranger if they don't agree with a score (they don't get enough money to put up with some jerk arguing a "line").

What do you think?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Jargon said:


> You know in sporting clays at bigger events they have scorers at each station. Sometimes they have boy scouts or a local high school swim team (or whatever, you get the idea) to come in and do the scoring (have 1 or 2 scorers on each target). They are told that if anyone argues the call, to summon a field ranger on the course to straighten out any disagreements. They get "paid" or a donation is made to their organization for their help. Have a jug at registration for tips to go towards them, or have a fun side game (like shooting balloons or a moving cardboard targets, you get the idea) for a small prize. So, charge 2 bucks to get 3 shots at balloons at 20, 30, 40 yards. Get a raffle ticket for each broken balloon and winner gets 1/2 dozen arrows or something. Take that money and put that towards the scorers as well. Some have held bake sales from the scorers (in my example it was a swim team) so they made tips, got some money from a fun side game, and from the bake sale, truly making it worth their while.
> 
> How many times to schools or organizations need to fundraise for something or another. This would also expose archery to other people outside the sport currently (Hopefully, they have a positive experience). Usually have them show up the day before and have a 30 or 45 minute meeting on what to do and how to score and to make sure they call a Field Ranger if they don't agree with a score (they don't get enough money to put up with some jerk arguing a "line").
> 
> What do you think?


I really like this idea, I work with the BoyScouts and the local 4H Clubs. They are always needing money for something or the other and wanting donations. This is a great way for them to EARN the money and learn something at the same time since most of them shoot bows.


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## buttspanker (Apr 25, 2008)

XForce Girl said:


> I am curious though, has changing to shotgun start effected your attendance any?


To be honest with ya, the shotgun start didnt effect the number of shooters. I like it better because Im not at the range all day.


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

All of these are great ideas! The hard part is realizing that the accusation without proof is an attack on the accused's integrity. I know a world renouned shooter that accused a youth shooter of being somthing he wasnt because he spanked all of his students and the fallout may be ugly. When you make this accusation your walking out on a limb that may be a little thin on someone elses word. Be sure that you have the puddin before you embarrasse yourself or get socked in the nose.
Now if the other shooter thats doing the accusing is willing to stand up and say it to the susposed cheater then by all means go ahead. Most ranges belong or are affiliated with a shop. If the accused's word is respected in the community and the accuser has made a mistake it not only will cost you his patronage but every one he knows business. Just a thought .......


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## Jargon (Apr 23, 2011)

you may always have some forms of cheating, but I think if you can stop the "pencil pro's" that is a big step. I know from when I shot sporting clays, the scores always seemed MUCH lower on the courses that had score keepers, and after a while the cheaters would avoid those shoots, and amazingly attendance would be much higher because everyone else (that doesn't cheat) likes to compete on an even playing field and seeks out shoots with score keepers. 

I've seen College Ag students (they were the best because of their love for the outdoors), boy scouts, cheerleaders, 4-H, and all sorts get exposed to a new sport, think its a win win.


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## rossing6 (Jun 7, 2008)

Another rule is that anyone in the group who does not report the cheating is also thrown out for good...puts peer pressure on them as well. We need to keep this fun for all, as shooters we have to do our part as well, so hold us accountable.


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## coastiehunter2 (Jun 27, 2011)

That is sad...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Hey Jargon?
What kind of pay do the scorekeepers receive?
I think this is a great idea but also don't want to go broke.
my local 4H kids would be up for this they were just in the other day asking if they could do something at my shoot to raise money.

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## Jargon (Apr 23, 2011)

The score keepers don't get paid at all by the club (usually all the money goes towards their organization, and they "donate" their time for it). They get paid with Tips (which typically is pretty good), and with a raffle or game (like the example I gave above, where people can shoot for raffle tickets, 2 dollars to do it, one towards the payment of the prize, in my example 1/2 dozen arrows and once the arrows are paid for, everything else goes towards the Score keepers), in the past they would also do a bake sale or whatever else they can think of (girl scouts selling cookies, boyscouts selling popcorn, cheerleaders do a bake sale). I think the raffle in which they need to do something (my example to break balloons) to get the tickets make people want to spend more $ towards it. People feel they are "earning" their ticket, and prize. Get people's ego going with a group of friends and they will spend more $ and all for a good cause.


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

I got sick of getting pencil whipped so I ususally just shoot a "fun round" with the wife or we just shoot at home on our 30 target range.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

salmon killer said:


> Peer grouping and double score cards are the best ways to keep the cheating out. It just amazes me what some one will do for a $4.00 prize.Lol


This works good but you must never return score cards to the shooters. Most cheating in this scenario is done after the shooting is over by changing scores before they turn them in. Have the score keepers turn in the cards. It is best to have volunteers travel with the grps and score. Cheating has been in this sport since the second bow was built. Manage it the best you can. Call out the folks suspected. 

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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Jargon said:


> You know in sporting clays at bigger events they have scorers at each station. Sometimes they have boy scouts or a local high school swim team (or whatever, you get the idea) to come in and do the scoring (have 1 or 2 scorers on each target). They are told that if anyone argues the call, to summon a field ranger on the course to straighten out any disagreements. They get "paid" or a donation is made to their organization for their help. Have a jug at registration for tips to go towards them, or have a fun side game (like shooting balloons or a moving cardboard targets, you get the idea) for a small prize. So, charge 2 bucks to get 3 shots at balloons at 20, 30, 40 yards. Get a raffle ticket for each broken balloon and winner gets 1/2 dozen arrows or something. Take that money and put that towards the scorers as well. Some have held bake sales from the scorers (in my example it was a swim team) so they made tips, got some money from a fun side game, and from the bake sale, truly making it worth their while.
> 
> How many times to schools or organizations need to fundraise for something or another. This would also expose archery to other people outside the sport currently (Hopefully, they have a positive experience). Usually have them show up the day before and have a 30 or 45 minute meeting on what to do and how to score and to make sure they call a Field Ranger if they don't agree with a score (they don't get enough money to put up with some jerk arguing a "line").
> 
> What do you think?


I have seen this done too. Problem is, if the scorers dont travel through the course and just score and give cards back to shooters to move on, the cheaters will change their scores while they have their cards moving to the next station. Cheating takes on a whole mindset of its own. It has been in our sport for years. Where there is a will, there is a way and they will find it.

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## PHSJason (Jun 3, 2007)

At our 'Money-Dot' shoot last year, we had 4h and Girl scouts on the course to verify money dot hits. We also had a few un-monitored dots. The monitored dots had payouts that were in some cases 10x what the un-monitored were. 
Having a non-shooting, unaffiliated, 3rd party in the group as the designated scorer is the way to go, but very difficult to get that many volunteers.


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

If it is that bad. Send a scorekeeper out with each group. You could also have a shoot off at the end for the top few places. The cheaters will crash and burn.


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## Green River (May 13, 2006)

The first thing you have to do at the local level is stop giving away money or prizes and shoot for fun, people will beat your eyes out for $5. One club I shoot at is having a drawing for a new Mathews bow at the end of the season, turn in your card and you are in the drawing, cheaters can write down what ever score they want if they think it helps. Local shoots are supose to be fun, getting beat by a cheater is not...and yes this means all you guys that think a rangefinder after the shot is not cheating.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

buttspanker said:


> Ok, Ive got a range in west Arkansas. Ive been dealing with rumors of people cheating since I opened the range last year. Last year was a stagger start. That left the door open for a lot of cheating.
> 
> On to this year. Ive went to a shotgun start. That helped a little. I keep hearing about the same guy running down and pulling arrows before anybody can get there.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're wanting to close down your range for nothing more than BS. So shut it down.

You've been opened only a year? Try our Establish Date 1964. Hell! We've run something of 14,000 shooters through our 3Ds in the past 12 years. Before a few industries shut down and the gas crunch we were averaging 1400 shooters per year. For the past 3 years we've averaged 140+ for each event. Our club is mentioned always of being the highest drawing club around.

Our club has nothing but walk-in shoots. We average 140 shooters at every shoot. We give out 10" to 17" tall stand up trophies. Rarely do we have someone even mention cheating and when it is we investigate. Those found are taken off to the side and given a good warning. We put others in place to find out what's going on and right off the offender is either caught or knowing he is targeted he just disappears. You up and crucify someone for all to see and you're cutting your own throat.

Giving out double scores cards and/or giving some form of pay to Boy Scouts or 4Hers is just taking money out of your pocket. Shotgun starts! I've heard this stuff so that I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired of hearing it. We have people come in from 7 am to 11 am and sometimes right at "be on the range by 12." What do you want, a few people who can make a 9 am shotgun or a bunch of people over a 4 to 5 hours start time? If you don't have the time you shouldn't be open anyway.


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## gen2teg (Jan 29, 2009)

we had alot of complaints at our local shoot, one was about a father and son using a rf on every target before they shot. .i watched them and they were confronted and they said they were getting ready for hunting season. they shot fifty points down with a range finder and dont use binoculars. how do you dq the lowest score for the weekend and a ten year old


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

In the state YHEC comp. , They had a score keeper at each station. We put an X under what they shot, then our int. in the other spaces. So the people had to have the int every one was using & what station they were at. The competitors have no idea what int would go where. It made it pretty hard to cheat.
Could have scorers punch the cards, makes it hard to cheat if there are 2 holes on 1 line, It becomes a zero.


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

I liked the cheerleader suggestion!

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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

hatchettjack said:


> I liked the cheerleader suggestion!
> 
> Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


That may bring the scores down to where the cheaters can compete.


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## rae.sams (Feb 2, 2012)

dont split the groups up that could cost you money in the long run. Most people shoot local shoots for fun and recreation with friends or family members. We usually have a big group with me, my husband, his dad, his brother, a couple friends and neices and nephews and shooting is something we get together and do for fun! We started going to a new shoot a few years back and we were winning so naturlly we are the new people beating the people thats used to winning so we were being accused of cheating so we just had the president of the club walk around with our group to pull arrows and keep the scores. we still won the same classes and that pretty much ended all the cheating talk. so if i was you just ask them to shoot with them and see first hand for yourself!


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Its easy to say that someone cheated when you just got beat.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

dont let groups of 4 friends shoot together, always have a stranger in the group. for the guy who is suspected of cheating, put a guy in his group who is a stickler for the rules and see what happens. if trophy is involved, have a shootoff of the top 5 scores.

if friends show up and want to shoot together for "fun", give them the option of doing just that, but their scores wont get posted and they cant win.. this creates a "competition" class and a fun class. personally, when I shoot with my friends, nobody has the option to cheat since bragging rights are more important than any trophy or gift certificate.

you will attract more shooters without the cheaters, by running an "honest" shoot.


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## dgirt (Jul 1, 2003)

Put a picture of them on the Club house wall with a sign calling them out!!!!!


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## la.basscat (Jan 16, 2006)

Just switched to the shotgun format. Work great in a bunch of areas. Our numbers were the same. We were able to have an awards ceremony. Our members enjoyed the social mixing while scores were tallied. We had more help cleaning up and pulling targets. We were done about 3 hours earlier!!! We did not split up groups and allowed the friend grouping. Not aware of cheating but I do know fun was had by many. The shotgun starts will stay as far as I'm concerned.


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## CEB (Jul 29, 2002)

Why don't you just pull the guy to the side and put the bug in his ear about what everyone is saying about him. Also politely tell him that pulling an arrow before they have all been scored is against the rules. More than likely he will change his ways to prove everyone wrong or hopefully you will never see him again.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

i liked the signs idea that dqirt added. i would make posters and a pic of the accused person. and show the world .....might even post ; if you are found cheating you pic will be here.......


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## Ohbowhunter815 (Jul 19, 2010)

CEB said:


> Why don't you just pull the guy to the side and put the bug in his ear about what everyone is saying about him. Also politely tell him that pulling an arrow before they have all been scored is against the rules. More than likely he will change his ways to prove everyone wrong or hopefully you will never see him again.


This seems to me like the most logical and mature approach. You dont have to call him out just make sure he understands that he cant pull arrows until all shooters and score keepers are present and scores recorded.


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## Tau44 (Nov 10, 2010)

I personally don't like shot gun starts. There is a 3d shoot a lot closer to me that does shotgun starts. I drive further to the next 3d shoot because thy are walk in and can shoot with buddies. It is not because we cheat most times we don't even keep score we just enjoy shooting 3d and shooting together.


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## bluerocker (Dec 24, 2009)

cheaters are gonna cheat, you just have to let them stink themselves out. I've saw some of the worst cheaters on earth and they always fizzle out . Here in my area we have one nicknamed Mr. PENCIL... Clubs shoot three to a group and double card and it don't slow him down. He shows up with two teenage boys that don't have a clue what he's doing, when they double card him he keep's all six cards.. Some has a shotgun start but they always pair him up with his buddy's so he can help them out!!!.. It got so bad at one clubs they have changed rules trying to catch him and ran most of the people off. One week he didn't turn in a card because someone asked to shoot with him. Next week he smoked it 20 up with his teenagers!!! I wish at every club there was a score keeper for each group, That you shoot and don't even walk to the target the score keeper does it all.. I've been in 3d archery since the mid 80's I love it more than anything on earth. I've been to many national shoots and just don't think 3d archery will ever go any where, Its about as big as it will get. IT need a complete change of rules from the ground up. If someone new shows up shoots good he must be cheating.. With a club appointed score keeper this wouldn't happen. I know several good shot that wont go to a tournament because they were accused of cheating.. Some just flat out quit


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

What we did at my local range with suspect cheaters is to send out someone with the group that you trust 9someone who needs a group to shoot with, etc) and let the suspect person do as they normally do (keep their own score , etc) and have the trusted person also keep their own score card but score the suspect shooters shots instead of their own. We've busted 3 or 4 guys this way.


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## Piranha_owns (Mar 13, 2012)

That would be a great sneaky way ill bring that method up at our next shoot


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## deerhunterrick (Mar 11, 2011)

You will never totally stop cheaters on a local level unless you post 2 score keepers at each target. We had the same thing happen 20 years ago. It starts at the youth level too. Parents will take their kids out,pad the score so they win something.Turn in some unreal scores too. This trains the kids to pad the score card as well. Your kid doesn't win they get discouraged by it,so to keep them interested every cub and youth received a token award. Old donated trophies work great, cheap $0.75 cent pin metals and ribbons. Something to have them feel accomplishment instead of failure. Void adult awards all together. Money shoots are a different story and most are done on the up & up because groups are busted by draw. We started cheating by cheating our kids from right & wrong when they start shooting,they expect to win so they pad the score card. 2 keepers at each target that relates to 60 score station posts. 1 left at the shooting stake 1 to walk to the target and score.each card then initialed at each score station. If that doesn't stop the cheaters nothing every will. It's not about the award as much as the 15 minutes of fame. Eliminate awards for adult shooters and give every kid something. It will pay you back 10 fold. And it is a great way to get club work hours in as well.


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