# Back tension pulling the bow apart?



## bonehed67

It is sheer repetition. Keep working at it until it is total muscle memory. I am doing the same thing right now with a Stan Element release. My forward pressure on the bow is giving me fits. I am shooting mainly at ten yards and trying to burn it in! Good luck!


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## Grayghost 202

I am no expert by no means but I'll give you my .02. I assume you are useing a BT release. Once you are setteled in you aim, at your spot. As you are aiming you start squeezing your shoulderblades togeather "pulling with your back" keep aiming, never stop aiming, before you know it the shot goes off, while you are aiming, did I say never quit aiming. If you cannot get the shot to go off with the squeezeing of your back the you may want to check your draw length, it may be too long. Bottom line is your aiming, anchor, bowhand everything should be SOLID until the shot goes off. I've been out of the game for a while but some things never change.


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## seafaris

Probably a tension type release (Element) is the most difficult to be consistant over 70 shots. I use a slight push (enough to keep my bow arm pointing to the target after the shot goes off) and a firm pull. On a hinge and thumb trigger it also depends on how hot/cold you set the release, and how much you relax your hand, and the amount of rotation of the hinge, and the amount of initial thumb pressure on the thumb trigger. The main thing is that you have to be in control, steady, and focused on the x through out the shot.


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## Tony Bagnall

Are you using hinge or thumb release?? On my thumb release I found that the thumb position and how hot the release was influenced the right by 2 -3 inches ...too hot it flew 2 inches to cold it went 3 inches... It is set now so that it goes off before I hit the full "contraction" of my back muscles...


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## Blue X

You know thats a good question and the answer is really simple. What you have asked about is a whole process and not just pulling the bow apart. The push and pull is made in the draw and set up stage before you go to your anchor and not so much in the release. Why you get left right misses is because you start like a limp rope and try to add all the pressure during the aim period and its very erratic. Thats the problem with the whole concept of the relaxed shot stuff you read about. Forget about that crap, there needs to be pressure from your bow arm elbow thru your tricep across your back and thru your release arm tricep to your release elbow. On both arms from the elbow to your finger tips should be relaxed and your bow arm elbow needs to be unlocked. 

Raise your bow slightly above shoulder level. 
Draw with your elbow up.
When you get to full draw add about 5 extra pounds into the wall by pulling your shoulder blades together. You should feel even pressure pushing on your bow hand and pulling on your release hand. 
set up and Go to anchor
Put the sight on your target but your not aiming yet
Start increasing the same pressure on both ends by pulling your shoulder blades together.
Aim


The conscious effort to shoot is made before you aim.
This keeps your mind in the aim for only a second and a half to a couple seconds and within the human attn span.
The last conscious thing you do is aim.

Note: your bow arm and hand are just like your finger when youre shooting a rubber band. the tip of your finger is above your knuckle, so your hand has to be above your bow shoulder. When the release breaks the forward pressure will launch your bows momentum straight forward after the arrow is done gone.

Let me know if it helps you out.

Blue X


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## Joe Schnur

Ok little more info. Yes I shoot a hinge release. Shooting consistent 300 and about 45 x nfaa games. 600-96x at indoor Nats T.R.U. ball ht3 and a scott black hole. Scott is set colder than the ht but pretty much the same result. Currently I draw and anchor put about a 2 pounds of front on the wall and pull through the release. The local pro's and upper level armatures are saying I need to pull the bow apart when I increase the push pull I get left 1.5 inches no rights just a shift of impact with the added pressure. But I can't see how I repeat the pressure when "pulling it apart" maybe I just need to switch to it and put a thousand shots through it just seems variable and susceptible to fatigue. I shot 2 leagues and 2 tournaments this weekend about 300 shots would think by the last game this push pull would start to vary a lot. With a static front well. Like I said I guess I just need to commit to it and shoot till it is second nature. Grrrrrrr back to the drawing board


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## CarlV

That "pull the bow apart" is not a repeatable thing and is probably causing your left shots.

Read BlueX's post again


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## montigre

I was also taught this same "pull the bow apart" method and admittedly, have never been ale to get the right and left halves working perfectly together. I'm really not sure that is a viable method to use with the modern compound bows that have very short valleys and more agressive cam systems unless you first learned that method using the old wheel bows and are able to carry that feeling over. 

Now that I'm in the process of relearning to shoot while rehabbing this blasted bow shoulder, I am no longer able to make even a vain attempt at pulling it apart...LOL, so I'm with you and am very seriously looking at other methods of engaging those elusive rhomboids....

I very much like what BlueX is prescribing. It seems it would be so much easier to get the shot off smoothly if you're already heavily preloaded in the back prior to starting the aiming process. I will give it a serious go when I get back to the range. 

Thanks, Joe for starting this thread!!


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## Bees

Blue X said:


> You know thats a good question and the answer is really simple. What you have asked about is a whole process and not just pulling the bow apart. The push and pull is made in the draw and set up stage before you go to your anchor and not so much in the release. Why you get left right misses is because you start like a limp rope and try to add all the pressure during the aim period and its very erratic. Thats the problem with the whole concept of the relaxed shot stuff you read about. Forget about that crap, there needs to be pressure from your bow arm elbow thru your tricep across your back and thru your release arm tricep to your release elbow. On both arms from the elbow to your finger tips should be relaxed and your bow arm elbow needs to be unlocked.
> 
> Raise your bow slightly above shoulder level.
> Draw with your elbow up.
> When you get to full draw add about 5 extra pounds into the wall by pulling your shoulder blades together. You should feel even pressure pushing on your bow hand and pulling on your release hand.
> set up and Go to anchor
> Put the sight on your target but your not aiming yet
> Start increasing the same pressure on both ends by pulling your shoulder blades together.
> Aim
> 
> 
> The conscious effort to shoot is made before you aim.
> This keeps your mind in the aim for only a second and a half to a couple seconds and within the human attn span.
> The last conscious thing you do is aim.
> 
> Note: your bow arm and hand are just like your finger when youre shooting a rubber band. the tip of your finger is above your knuckle, so your hand has to be above your bow shoulder. When the release breaks the forward pressure will launch your bows momentum straight forward after the arrow is done gone.
> 
> Let me know if it helps you out.
> 
> Blue X



In the red highlight: 
I draw like this, getting the draw weight of the bow on to my back early in the cycle and using the back muscle to draw the bow. 
I call it loading my back and I keep increasing the tension in the back and keep pushing the bow out in front.
through out the cycle. 


in the green highlight: I am pointing (pre aiming) my sight at the target
and I am starting to qualify my float on this setup.
if I like what I see( in other words if my float settles like normal) I will continue and start aiming
If I don't like what I see: It's coming down. Not going to shoot.

when I do it correctly: there are no steps, one thing flows into the other. 
like throwing a baseball.. 

when I shoot short distance this is what I practice: If I flow thru the shot I score it good.
if It didn't flow and I let down I score it as good.
if it didn't flow but I shot it any way I get a zero and I have to stand in the corner for 5 minutes
before I can resume my practice, I hate standing in the corner..


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## Slingshot

I don't believe you can push consistently.....

Proper shot execution give the elusion the bow is being ripped apart. I think it's misleading, you need to have a strong unyielding bow arm.

Now if the front side is strong it's the release side that's responsible for the rotation that makes the release fire. Everything in a straight line, strong shot execution. 

Now if you were going to add pressure to the grip during the shot, how could it possibly be repeatable? Sometimes it would be in a straight line other times it may go left or right a little, there is simply no way to always make it react the same.

Now you may also hear push your pin in to the target, this too is misleading. Same as above, unyielding bow arm and set front shoulder. If done correctly it will "feel" like pushing because you are drawing and executing your shots against a solid front side. It keeps you from collapsing at the shot and looks like your ripping the bow apart.


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## Joe Schnur

Now that is cool a thread where we discussed a subject did not argue and actually gave the poster the answers he was looking for thank you all for your time and contributions.


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## donjuan

Hold steady and firm back tension at full draw at your anchor as you let your hinge style release rotate.


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## Joe Schnur

Yup just what I am doing now just need to work on stability, and vision ability to see focus.


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## Blue X

I thought it was pretty cool myself. I always like seeing how different people describe the same thing in different ways. Your form discription and shot sequence description may be altogether different than every body elses. Wh 

300- 46x isnt a bad avg. Actually anybody who shoots a higher avg has all been at 46x avg at some point or the other and when we get old well all pass it again going the other way. Be careful not to miss the fun in archery as you learn. Always know your avg and be happy and content when you shoot it. Dont get drug into the trap of trying to beat everybody, the battle is within yourself. When you go to a big shoot, dont get tore up. 100 years from now nobody will ever remember if you won or lost or shot your avg. Get your moneys worth of relaxation and contentment from every arrow you shoot. If you put in 100% and you do your best, that makes you equal to every top shooter on earth, they all put in 100% and do their best. 

For me I got to 48x avg by learning more about form, shot execution and general bow tuning. I got to 56x avg by learning about my form and shot execution and my shot sequence. I got to 58x avg by learning to efficiently operating my form and shot execution and my shot sequence. I started shooting 60x rounds more consistently by printing my shot sequence, laying it beside me where I shoot and actually practiced just having a perfectly executed efficient repeatable shot sequence and learning to recreate it in my mind as a road map for every shot. 

You know what, we all continually go back to the drawing board. I think archery is like a too short hair cut, it will look better over time. Dont do the ol argh thing lol, going back to the drawing board at 46x avg is on the path to 50x avg. embrace it and continue learning. Archery is a journey to shoot better it forces you to become a more well rounded patient person. The peace and wisdom you can get from studying archery as a discipline is worth more than anything you will ever win imo. 

Blue X


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## Joe Schnur

Nominating this for best post if the year


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## subconsciously

A strong bow arm, high right rhomboid tension and execution thru expansion produce my best shots. 

There's no perfect way to shoot a bow. It's what works best for you. It's a continual process

Blue x. I like the way you think.


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## hoosierredneck

that's some good info, thanks for posting that up blue x


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## Ozzy17

This has been a great post guys, I've really enjoyed reading it! 

I struggle with getting my hinge off periodically because I can't consciously rotate my hand and keep the shot together, as soon as i do something goes off in my head and everything falls apart. And u tried pulling the bow apart for a long time and it just gave me a crazy frantic float and wore me out. 

So once I get to anchor, and I try to anchor smooth and quickly, with no extra movement so as to save energy throughout the shoot. I squeeze to the click. Once it clicks, I increase the flex on my shoulder blades concentrating on bringing the tip of my release elbow into the "barrel of the gun". I set my release to go off once my elbow reaches that point. Which I can't see or completely feel so it still surprises me. I doubt this would work with a vertical release hand which is how I used to anchor, but realized it was putting unnecessary pressure on my face, and actually pulling my index finger knuckle out from under my jaw slightly, which is my actual anchor point. I now just anchor with my release hand in what feels natural. up being maybe at 45° or so? I dunno ill have to check pictures. I should also say that I increase back and forward pressure throughout the shot still, just not pulling the bow apart amounts of pressure. 

Doing this has allowed me to speed up my shot process a good bit which helps greatly since life doesn't allow me yo practice nearly as much as I'd like. Might not be the best or most recommended technique, but it might help someone also who knows right
I'm just starting to get back into comp after a 10yr hiatus so I'm still fine tuning my form and re learning a lot of tuning techniques. Great to see posts like this, lots to learn and think about!


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## cfinn

Good thread y'all. i struggle with holding the bow on target for the split second the hinge goes off. lately i find my self either pushing so hard that the bow drifts left on release, or i find i am dropping off the taget in anticipation. i shoot a scott longhorn hunter. i was thinking setting it hotter might help stop the fatigue factor. 1 thing i really need to train myself is to let down if the shot doesnt feel right, rather than twisting my wrist and dumping the shot.


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## Joe Schnur

Interesting you should say that. John Fernandez , Cara's father and coach shoots league with us. I was talking to him one evening and in 5 minutes he completely changed my ability to hold steady. This is going to be hard to describe in text I will try to get pics posted. He said you need to drop your front shoulder at full draw and make sure it is locked in. It was amazing it cut my float from a 2" circle to a 1/2 inch circle. You put your arm out like you are holding a bow 99.99 % of you will lift your shoulder. With out a bow in your hand have someone push on your life line and feel how stable you feel repeat but this time lower your front shoulder. As far as it will go I usually had a slight bend in the front arm to acheive this. The shoulder blade rotates down and the joint will lock up now have hour partner do the same push if you don't feel a lot more stable you don't have the shoulder dropped. Everyone I have ever shared this with has felt the difference and agrees it makes them more stable . Many have difficulty making it part of their shot every time especially given the years of doing it differently . For some reason I had to cool down my release setting too as this position mad the release go off too quick. If this is unclear please let me know this will transform your shooting unless by some strange chance you do it naturally . P.s. I have not found anyone doing it naturally. Some think they do but when it happens right they go wow I missed that all this time? With Akkad the great answers this is a chance to pay it forward.


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## AT_X_HUNTER

The harder you try the harder it gets. Let the bow shoot the arrow and don't over think it. Keep it simple. Draw with a solid bow arm and then forget it. Don't worry about pushing because as you do you'll add more or less torque from one shot to the next. The proof is in your 1.5" left misses. The harder you push the further left it goes. Set it and forget it. On the release side, don't rotate the release in your fingers. Try this.. take your hinge and hook it to your finger sling or a piece of loop material. rotate the release and watch the string move with the head of the release. Now, try letting the release move by relaxing your index finger. The string won't move. That sting represents your D loop. Draw against your bow arm and let the tension transfer to your back. Don't try to pull it apart, just let it feel like you are hanging on the sting. Your back will hold the bow and keep tension. Then let your release hand relax and index finger give. That should be all it takes to set the release off.

Think about this... If you just draw your bow and hold it on the target without trying to execute you can hold rock solid. Or at least better than you do when executing. Why? Because you are not changing the pressures applied to the bow. When you add pressure on the front side you have to compensate in your aim because you are moving your bow off the target. Same thing happens when you pull hard. So, if the bow holds steady without adding a bunch of torque, why would you want to add pressure, move your sight all over the target, and panic yourself into punching as your pin sails past the X? Relax, hang on the release, let the bow sit, relax your hand, and let the bow shoot the arrow. That's my 2 cents. It works for me. Maybe it'll work for you.... or not. good luck.


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## skynight

Blue X said:


> Start increasing the same pressure on both ends by pulling your shoulder blades together.



I really liked this post, but this has never worked for me. Are you actually moving the bow arm shoulder blade? If I contract my bow arm shoulder blade the bow moves left. I don't see how it can't. Can you expand on this part of your shot process for me? For me, I contract the release side only to fire the hinge.


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## bhutso

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> The harder you try the harder it gets. Let the bow shoot the arrow and don't over think it. Keep it simple. Draw with a solid bow arm and then forget it. Don't worry about pushing because as you do you'll add more or less torque from one shot to the next. The proof is in your 1.5" left misses. The harder you push the further left it goes. Set it and forget it. On the release side, don't rotate the release in your fingers. Try this.. take your hinge and hook it to your finger sling or a piece of loop material. rotate the release and watch the string move with the head of the release. Now, try letting the release move by relaxing your index finger. The string won't move. That sting represents your D loop. Draw against your bow arm and let the tension transfer to your back. Don't try to pull it apart, just let it feel like you are hanging on the sting. Your back will hold the bow and keep tension. Then let your release hand relax and index finger give. That should be all it takes to set the release off.
> 
> Think about this... If you just draw your bow and hold it on the target without trying to execute you can hold rock solid. Or at least better than you do when executing. Why? Because you are not changing the pressures applied to the bow. When you add pressure on the front side you have to compensate in your aim because you are moving your bow off the target. Same thing happens when you pull hard. So, if the bow holds steady without adding a bunch of torque, why would you want to add pressure, move your sight all over the target, and panic yourself into punching as your pin sails past the X? Relax, hang on the release, let the bow sit, relax your hand, and let the bow shoot the arrow. That's my 2 cents. It works for me. Maybe it'll work for you.... or not. good luck.


I like this post, I can set the hinge of in a ton of different ways, I'm new to it so I've been trying everything I read, but the most consistant for me is to relax my hand consciously until it clicks, the I aim until it fires, there are gonna be pressures at work no matter what muscle you think about squeezing, say your pulling 60 lbs at 80% let off as I am, that's basically 12 lbs of pressure you are holding with out adding anything too it, so if you stop fighting that pressure with your hand your release will rotate and fire. The key for me has been focusing on the process and keeping my mind out of the release, focus only on the target and let the release happen as I relax. If it takes too long I let down and start again


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## Blue X

skynight said:


> I really liked this post, but this has never worked for me. Are you actually moving the bow arm shoulder blade? If I contract my bow arm shoulder blade the bow moves left. I don't see how it can't. Can you expand on this part of your shot process for me? For me, I contract the release side only to fire the hinge.


Read what joe said up in post 22. Its extremely hard to describe anything that shows no movement. Joe hit the nail on the head, your shoulder blades drop down and bottom out against the spine like a clam shell crane bucket.

When I draw I add a little pressure into the wall i feel it evenly in each hand. I drop my shoulder blades and arm just like joe described and pull them together this adds a tiny amount more tension on both ends. Then I set up my shot. My sight is a tiny bit off left but very stable. From this point on there is no perceived movement in my execution. Everything from the tricep on my bow arm thru my back and shoulders to the tricept on my release arm is holding tension. The shoulder blade squeeze or expansion or what ever you want to cause is very minimal, only enough movement to force the trigger into my thumb. I say very minimal is a over statement, it feel like no movement until the follow thru.

If you are setting up relaxed then your muscles have to create a lot of movement just to draw tight and more movement to cause expansion. Try setting up very firm and no slack and the release will seem to go off very clean for me


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## aread

In my experience, push-pull is more critical of draw length AND foot position than a more static bow arm. Since you are shooting a little left, either lengthen your DL by half a twist or close your stance by a tiny amount. Or stick with the static bow arm.

Really good stuff from Blue X above.

Allen


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## skynight

Thanks for the response, makes sense.



Blue X said:


> Read what joe said up in post 22. Its extremely hard to describe anything that shows no movement. Joe hit the nail on the head, your shoulder blades drop down and bottom out against the spine like a clam shell crane bucket.
> 
> When I draw I add a little pressure into the wall i feel it evenly in each hand. I drop my shoulder blades and arm just like joe described and pull them together this adds a tiny amount more tension on both ends. Then I set up my shot. My sight is a tiny bit off left but very stable. From this point on there is no perceived movement in my execution. Everything from the tricep on my bow arm thru my back and shoulders to the tricept on my release arm is holding tension. The shoulder blade squeeze or expansion or what ever you want to cause is very minimal, only enough movement to force the trigger into my thumb. I say very minimal is a over statement, it feel like no movement until the follow thru.
> 
> If you are setting up relaxed then your muscles have to create a lot of movement just to draw tight and more movement to cause expansion. Try setting up very firm and no slack and the release will seem to go off very clean for me


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## AT_X_HUNTER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx4PiGxoJDg

here's a quick video from Chance on the subject. there's also a really good one that Scott archery did at Vegas or the ATA show. not sure which. But the guys talk about how they use a hinge and trigger. Just a little insight from the Pro's on technique.


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## Inc.

Where is the "push " in "Pull the bow apart ? "


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## Blue X

Inc. said:


> Where is the "push " in "Pull the bow apart ? "


bow arm Tricep mostly as the bow side tries to resist oposing bigger muscle groups on the other side. it just happens I reckon. That could also be described as static i guess or push pull either way and it would be the same. I think 99% of people who shoot fair to good do almost the same things and describe part or all differently even though it is roughly the exact same.

I quit focusing on all this stuff in my own shooting. it was very valuable to me for learning and for learning to be consistent, but at some point in time you just got to shoot the darn bow. We use the muscles we do because there not as easily anticipated from what I can tell, then we spend years trying to educate ourselves about those muscles so we can anticipate them. I dont worry much about all that, I can set up with even tension and just think about opposing forces and my mind moves whatever it needs to move. Most of them hit really well now so I dont worry about all the technicalities as much as I once did and I am content with it all. But there still is people who are trying to learn basic good strong shot execution and to them all that stuff is important like it used to be for me. I went thru all the stages and cycles and missed every way you can miss and bought every archery supply you can buy and finally give up on all of that and just started shooting the darn thing and you know it wasnt nearly as hard as i made it be for years. 

I think it is weird how people look at archery different than other task anyway. Archery is basicly worthless in our everyday lives but we cant trust ourselves to do it. And driving is a necessity and can kill you yet we can drive for miles subconsciously. 

Scenario, wake up go to kitchen pour cereal sit down pick up spoon and start engaging muscles and relaxing stuff and pour cereal down your shirt. Why not just focus on the end result and let your mind do the work like when you eat cereal in the morning. And on muscle memory, what if you set down at a different chair at the tale and your hand started feeding the person who was sitting where you sit yesterday. TP, you look at the cereal and jamb the spoon down your throat and no matter what you try you just cant get any cereal. You have to go stand at a blank wall and practice putting your spoon in a empty bowl then into your mouth for 6 weeks. Finally you get the spoon in the bowl and throw cereal over your shoulder and onto the light fixture. 

Blue X


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## redman

Relaxing your index finger is how I get release to go off Hard on stops slight pull with relaxing your index finger


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## montigre

Blue X said:


> Finally you get the spoon in the bowl and throw cereal over your shoulder and onto the light fixture. Blue X


OMG, Blue, that was priceless and spot on!! :chortle:


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## Inc.

Blue X said:


> bow arm Tricep mostly as the bow side tries to resist oposing bigger muscle groups on the other side. it just happens I reckon. That could also be described as static i guess or push pull either way and it would be the same. I think 99% of people who shoot fair to good do almost the same things and describe part or all differently even though it is roughly the exact same.
> 
> I quit focusing on all this stuff in my own shooting. it was very valuable to me for learning and for learning to be consistent, but at some point in time you just got to shoot the darn bow. We use the muscles we do because there not as easily anticipated from what I can tell, then we spend years trying to educate ourselves about those muscles so we can anticipate them. I dont worry much about all that, I can set up with even tension and just think about opposing forces and my mind moves whatever it needs to move. Most of them hit really well now so I dont worry about all the technicalities as much as I once did and I am content with it all. But there still is people who are trying to learn basic good strong shot execution and to them all that stuff is important like it used to be for me. I went thru all the stages and cycles and missed every way you can miss and bought every archery supply you can buy and finally give up on all of that and just started shooting the darn thing and you know it wasnt nearly as hard as i made it be for years.
> 
> I think it is weird how people look at archery different than other task anyway. Archery is basicly worthless in our everyday lives but we cant trust ourselves to do it. And driving is a necessity and can kill you yet we can drive for miles subconsciously.
> 
> Scenario, wake up go to kitchen pour cereal sit down pick up spoon and start engaging muscles and relaxing stuff and pour cereal down your shirt. Why not just focus on the end result and let your mind do the work like when you eat cereal in the morning. And on muscle memory, what if you set down at a different chair at the tale and your hand started feeding the person who was sitting where you sit yesterday. TP, you look at the cereal and jamb the spoon down your throat and no matter what you try you just cant get any cereal. You have to go stand at a blank wall and practice putting your spoon in a empty bowl then into your mouth for 6 weeks. Finally you get the spoon in the bowl and throw cereal over your shoulder and onto the light fixture.
> 
> Blue X



Again , thinking too much ...
What I was getting at was , there in no "Push " in the phrase " Pull the bow apart " --- people some how translate this to "push- pull the bow apart " 
The only time I have ever herd reference to "pushing " is adding a small amount of pressure to your front end to settle the pin back down.

I agree 100% with what your saying and you deserve some sort of an award for the last paragraph ! 

Personally at the moment , I am tearing apart and rebuilding the front end of my shot. My shot was running on sub con , I just found a problem that breaks down about 5% of the time under "distress". I am simply looking for a solution in my shot sequence to take care of this problem ( bow shoulder being naughty ) After the solution is found blank bail it to death , go shoot - 
It is a lot like driving a new car , get used to , get on down the road -


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## aread

Blue X said:


> .... Finally you get the spoon in the bowl and throw cereal over your shoulder and onto the light fixture.
> 
> Blue X


That's FUNNY!!! 

Unfortunately, it also describes me when somebody starts writing down the score. I think I need to read your posts on this a little more carefully.

Thanks,
Allen


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## Joe Schnur

I found if you agree to call and just call the arrows make it clear you don't want to know your score it works great . 6 tournaments all 300 pre round at least 45x now learn to do it wile keeping the score and find the last 15 x's


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## Blue X

Inc. said:


> Again , thinking too much ...
> What I was getting at was , there in no "Push " in the phrase " Pull the bow apart " --- people some how translate this to "push- pull the bow apart "
> The only time I have ever herd reference to "pushing " is adding a small amount of pressure to your front end to settle the pin back down.
> 
> I agree 100% with what your saying and you deserve some sort of an award for the last paragraph !
> 
> Personally at the moment , I am tearing apart and rebuilding the front end of my shot. My shot was running on sub con , I just found a problem that breaks down about 5% of the time under "distress". I am simply looking for a solution in my shot sequence to take care of this problem ( bow shoulder being naughty ) After the solution is found blank bail it to death , go shoot -
> It is a lot like driving a new car , get used to , get on down the road -


Pm me and well trade shot sequences and see if anything in my shot sequence might help you out. Not saying it will but ive put in a lot of time to figure out a repeatable easy to set up and practice shot sequence. I know your pretty knowledgeable because ive read a lot of your post. Its super hard to find the little pieces that are missing when your looking for something that only breaks down 5% of the time. Really theres nothing anybody could tell you that would diagnose or fix something that only you can see or feel. 

Sometimes with little problems that are hard to find, I have found you can magnify them with distance. A tiny issue that was a line cutter x at 20 might be a 6 on a 70m target. I have used that method before to find my flaws that I couldn't find any other way. 

Were all friends here as far as I can tell. If something I can do to helps you today, a year from now you may be helping me find my misses. Nobody is here to make fun of or judge anybody, were all here because we all want to shoot better. 
Blue X


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## Joe Schnur

Thanks again Blue X all great input. The problem with the input I was getting from coaches and pros I shoot with is pull the bow apart put a few extra pounds of push on the front to steady your aim. I don't have a meter on my front side to determine what a couple of pounds is exactly and if it varies you get some left rights.


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## ride394

One thing I learned from watching a few videos with Chance in them is to grip your hinge deeper than you normally would. This takes away almost all of the perceived motion I get when trying to relax through the shot. With that also come with a much steadier pin.


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## Joe Schnur

I agree it goes all the way in the bottom of the finger web for me and the release is very autpmatic . Warning: the release acts much hotter with this grip please be very careful.


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## crazyhoyt

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> The harder you try the harder it gets. Let the bow shoot the arrow and don't over think it. Keep it simple. Draw with a solid bow arm and then forget it. Don't worry about pushing because as you do you'll add more or less torque from one shot to the next. The proof is in your 1.5" left misses. The harder you push the further left it goes. Set it and forget it. On the release side, don't rotate the release in your fingers. Try this.. take your hinge and hook it to your finger sling or a piece of loop material. rotate the release and watch the string move with the head of the release. Now, try letting the release move by relaxing your index finger. The string won't move. That sting represents your D loop. Draw against your bow arm and let the tension transfer to your back. Don't try to pull it apart, just let it feel like you are hanging on the sting. Your back will hold the bow and keep tension. Then let your release hand relax and index finger give. That should be all it takes to set the release off.
> 
> Think about this... If you just draw your bow and hold it on the target without trying to execute you can hold rock solid. Or at least better than you do when executing. Why? Because you are not changing the pressures applied to the bow. When you add pressure on the front side you have to compensate in your aim because you are moving your bow off the target. Same thing happens when you pull hard. So, if the bow holds steady without adding a bunch of torque, why would you want to add pressure, move your sight all over the target, and panic yourself into punching as your pin sails past the X? Relax, hang on the release, let the bow sit, relax your hand, and let the bow shoot the arrow. That's my 2 cents. It works for me. Maybe it'll work for you.... or not. good luck.


Great info here.! Years ago when I first started using a hinge I simply rotated it with my fingers. While this works, I found it not very consistent an would hang up a lot on me. Now I simply slightly relax my index finger an tighten back muscles ever so slightly, doing this makes me pull with my arm in a consistent pattern allowing a total surprise release very time. When I do it this way I have found that I can set the release a lot colder an still easy to shoot.


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## hunter 57

Great Thread !!!!!!!! Lots of good info .....


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## Covurt

I just started shooting a hinge this week. This thread has been very helpful! Thank you!


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## Joe Schnur

Glad we could help this has been one of the cleanest threads I have participated in got great answers and no arguments or silly disagreements even picked up a new friend in the mix.


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## Blue X

Hey I picked up 2 new friends as well. How did you do at the state shoot Joe?

Blue X


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## Slingshot

Blue X said:


> bow arm Tricep mostly as the bow side tries to resist oposing bigger muscle groups on the other side. it just happens I reckon. That could also be described as static i guess or push pull either way and it would be the same. I think 99% of people who shoot fair to good do almost the same things and describe part or all differently even though it is roughly the exact same.
> 
> I quit focusing on all this stuff in my own shooting. it was very valuable to me for learning and for learning to be consistent, but at some point in time you just got to shoot the darn bow. We use the muscles we do because there not as easily anticipated from what I can tell, then we spend years trying to educate ourselves about those muscles so we can anticipate them. I dont worry much about all that, I can set up with even tension and just think about opposing forces and my mind moves whatever it needs to move. Most of them hit really well now so I dont worry about all the technicalities as much as I once did and I am content with it all. But there still is people who are trying to learn basic good strong shot execution and to them all that stuff is important like it used to be for me. I went thru all the stages and cycles and missed every way you can miss and bought every archery supply you can buy and finally give up on all of that and just started shooting the darn thing and you know it wasnt nearly as hard as i made it be for years.
> 
> I think it is weird how people look at archery different than other task anyway. Archery is basicly worthless in our everyday lives but we cant trust ourselves to do it. And driving is a necessity and can kill you yet we can drive for miles subconsciously.
> 
> Scenario, wake up go to kitchen pour cereal sit down pick up spoon and start engaging muscles and relaxing stuff and pour cereal down your shirt. Why not just focus on the end result and let your mind do the work like when you eat cereal in the morning. And on muscle memory, what if you set down at a different chair at the tale and your hand started feeding the person who was sitting where you sit yesterday. TP, you look at the cereal and jamb the spoon down your throat and no matter what you try you just cant get any cereal. You have to go stand at a blank wall and practice putting your spoon in a empty bowl then into your mouth for 6 weeks. Finally you get the spoon in the bowl and throw cereal over your shoulder and onto the light fixture.
> 
> Blue X


Love the cereal example, so true and funny as hell

I don't get it either, shoot the damn bow and get over it. If all your worried about is making the release work how can you possibly hit the target where you want to.

The first hinge release I owned my mom bought for me as a Christmas gift, she knew I liked archery and went to the ship and asked what would be a good gift for me. I was excited until I opened it, I had no idea how it worked this was 1998 no internet to reference. So I just grabbed my bow and started shooting it. 

It wasn't until I started competing that I even thought about how I was firing it. I never thought about it until people started asking me about it and I still didn't have an answer. I kinda wish it never changed live would have been much simpler for me lol

I think there is far too much misinformation about the subject, too many people telling what your doing wrong. If you shoot it consistently your doing it right, anybody that tells you otherwise should shut up. 

I understand the power of knowledge, and how we seek perfection in this sport. That's why these threads are awesome. 

Start aiming and quit thinking, your scores will go up, I promise


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## skynight

I've been trying what you said, and so far I have to say I like it - a lot. My float is much tighter with tension from tricep to tricep as you described. I still have my biggest shooting nemesis creeping in when I get fatigued though. When I get tired I tighten my palm muscle under the grip and kick the bow to the left just as he shot breaks. I think I subconsciously fire the shot with this tiny bit of forward pressure. Drives me crazy when I do it - gives me a left miss at 60 of up to 6 inches. I've shot enough shots trying this out this week that it's going to take a couple ibuprofen to loosen up my back for todays 3D shoot.
Thanks Blue X for the posts.




Blue X said:


> Read what joe said up in post 22. Its extremely hard to describe anything that shows no movement. Joe hit the nail on the head, your shoulder blades drop down and bottom out against the spine like a clam shell crane bucket.
> 
> When I draw I add a little pressure into the wall i feel it evenly in each hand. I drop my shoulder blades and arm just like joe described and pull them together this adds a tiny amount more tension on both ends. Then I set up my shot. My sight is a tiny bit off left but very stable. From this point on there is no perceived movement in my execution. Everything from the tricep on my bow arm thru my back and shoulders to the tricept on my release arm is holding tension. The shoulder blade squeeze or expansion or what ever you want to cause is very minimal, only enough movement to force the trigger into my thumb. I say very minimal is a over statement, it feel like no movement until the follow thru.
> 
> If you are setting up relaxed then your muscles have to create a lot of movement just to draw tight and more movement to cause expansion. Try setting up very firm and no slack and the release will seem to go off very clean for me


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## Jaliv92

Tagged


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## Shrek XT3000

:zip::thumbs_up Great thread. This post shows me I'm on the right track to improve my form.
Jeff


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## Shooter6

Tagged to hungover to read this right now.


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## SonnyThomas

After reading all this....I think I've got Target Panic...or giggling too much while practicing  Good reading, much the same technique just told differently. Unyielding bow arm, yes. Even pressure at both ends of the draw, yes. And thinking too much, yes. And I ain't no more cereal as my wife could clobber me...
Most all of us know when we get off a good shot. The problem is duplicating it. Hard is defining the written process. Terry Wunderle; Heal the bow. I believe he means feel the riser grip fully as most add pressure and end up going from a low grip to a mid or high grip while shooting. Focusing on the "heal" part one learns to have full contact and with full contact you have the "unyielding bow arm. Not sure, but reading and practicing that's what I get out of it.


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## Joe Schnur

376 out of 420 still waiting till Monday for results it is spread over two weekends


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## Joe Schnur

Sky night the palm should not come into the game the bow grip should never touch the life line in your hand it should be from the v of the thumb to the base if the thumb and wrist. Never touching the life line this will stop the palm from affecting the shot


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## 2fingers

Pay attention to your peep and scope housing. if your rolling your head as you pull through you will get lefts as you are no longer centered in your peep.


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## Joe Schnur

Yup I agree sized my peep tight to the housing and made a big difference


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## trumankayak

2fingers said:


> Pay attention to your peep and scope housing. if your rolling your head as you pull through you will get lefts as you are no longer centered in your peep.


^ Money ^  took the words right out of my mouth.


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## skynight

Maybe my anatomy is incorrect but i didn't know the palm stopped at the lifeline. Maybe i should have said thumb pad. I do not put my hand into the grip as you must think. It is very easy to have hand position correct and change poi with thumb pad muscle tension.
3D went great, 26 up on 40 targets.



Joe Schnur said:


> Sky night the palm should not come into the game the bow grip should never touch the life line in your hand it should be from the v of the thumb to the base if the thumb and wrist. Never touching the life line this will stop the palm from affecting the shot


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## Joe Schnur

Well done sorry for the confusion. Many folks put the bow right down the life line and thus get a lot of variation from hand muscles. You are correct as usual completely relaxed hand no tension any where is the way to go. Any tension does change the poi. This is much worse if riser placement is incorrect I apologize for my assumption must have read into the post.

P.s. Damn nice shooting


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## cycler843

I've gotten some very good instruction from Padgett (Socket Man) in the General Archery Discussion forum. Setting up a hinge release, trying different styles of releases and trying different methods or engines to get the release to fire are all articles he has posted.


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