# Bow press fingers



## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

I would like to know myself. I can't see how the fingers would be under a patent law being that there are numerous different configurations.


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## orarcher (Jun 3, 2006)

I was contacted by last chance archery after i started selling them here and was formally sent a letter from a atty. with a order to cease production or i would be sued. So i stopped. The patent not only patents the design but also the process in wich the fingers are used so it doesnt matter what you change in the design if its used at the end of the limb to press the limbs its covered.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

orarcher said:


> I was contacted by last chance archery after i started selling them here and was formally sent a letter from a atty. with a order to cease production or i would be sued. So i stopped. The patent not only patents the design but also the process in wich the fingers are used so it doesnt matter what you change in the design if its used at the end of the limb to press the limbs its covered.


Man, I wouldn't think that could stand. A patent on how they are used?? I don't blame you for not fooling with it, though.


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## orarcher (Jun 3, 2006)

dw'struth said:


> Man, I wouldn't think that could stand. A patent on how they are used?? I don't blame you for not fooling with it, though.


I know its been discussed 1oooo's of times here but it is what it is


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Was it any kind of device that pushed on the end of the limbs or was it just fingers?
Don.



orarcher said:


> I was contacted by last chance archery after i started selling them here and was formally sent a letter from a atty. with a order to cease production or i would be sued. So i stopped. The patent not only patents the design but also the process in wich the fingers are used so it doesnt matter what you change in the design if its used at the end of the limb to press the limbs its covered.


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## mailman (Jul 25, 2007)

How about the BowMaster Bow press the application is the same you are pressing the end of the limbs, i think what Last Change archery's doing is stop the sell of home made fingers because they loosing revenue. Why should we buy their expensive press while we the public can make one for a lot less cost. So if i design my own fingers and not sell it but share the process in making one would i get a letter from them?????IMO


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*fingers*



mailman said:


> How about the BowMaster Bow press the application is the same you are pressing the end of the limbs, i think what Last Change archery's doing is stop the sell of home made fingers because they loosing revenue. Why should we buy their expensive press while we the public can make one for a lot less cost. So if i design my own fingers and not sell it but share the process in making one would i get a letter from them?????IMO


 i went and looked at his patent's he filed two of them , the last one Jan of this yr 2010
in general a patent is good for 20 yrs . he never filed the fingers but they are clearly part of his patent and in his last patent he filed he does call them by name fingers . it would be nice if he would go ahead and just market the fingers for the DIY folks in the USA , 
there will always be people making their own product to save themself either time or money , i have to give him credit either it was his idea on the press or he took it form some other DIY person and ran with it and files a patent on it . as long as there is no product (finger) put on the market for sale by name in the USA then you should be safe as no money has crossed hands for a product . I'm not a lawyer so dont take my comment here as fact im just assuming it . i went and looked at his press it is in the upper price range in the press market that's out there . 
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7644708.html#show-page2

but there will always be fingers made and some will even be on the market for resale 
it just the American way we are DIY by nature 
have a good day and press on

i dont remember what board i was on a hunting or fishing board but some one was selling 4 pcs of scrap steel (junk), damn things were drilled and threaded even "" lol ""


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## swardlow (Dec 9, 2010)

if read carefully someone can find a way around any patent. the wording in them has to be specific so they do not get a blanket to cover everything that could even remotely connected to it. one only needs to find the flaw.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Good luck I read it and it seems pretty vague to me. but I hope someone finds away around it since it seems they aren't overly interested in licensing (their) the idea. I'm also frustrated by their lack of low cost options. $600 dollars is a lot to pay for a press, they are nice and I have no doubt the number of hours that go into making one warrants that price but the design level is clearly for pro-shops and really more than Harry homeowner needs. Make an inline like mine and don't paint it and sell it for 200.00 at least archers would then have a choice.

Oh and don't be too angry with them in order to benefit from the patent they must defend any intrusion that can be proven they know about. Failure to defend can cause their patent to be infringed. If I went through the trouble of getting a patent I would want to profit from it. The difference is I would likely license the hell out of it. Get paid for doing literally nothing.


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## mbw (Oct 11, 2010)

So is this guy in with Apple Archery? Cause they are now using the same "finger" design. I think it's bs. They are probably trying to stiff arm the little guys.


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## jlnel (Dec 22, 2009)

Let's call them "Toes". Now can I get a set???


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## sngehl01 (Apr 23, 2006)

now I wish I would have bought a set two years ago when they were everywhere for cheap.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Do you think it would fly if someone built them for ppl and didn't sell them? The ppl that get the fingers could just send a donation to the person that made the fingers.
Can't get in trouble for patent infringment that way.
Don.


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## lkmn (Feb 28, 2006)

mbw said:


> So is this guy in with Apple Archery? Cause they are now using the same "finger" design. I think it's bs. They are probably trying to stiff arm the little guys.


The only one he will liscense to is apple. I had a design specifically for the destroyers all drawn up with some interest in purchasing, when I got the same letter from him. I asked about liscensing as a possibility. I was pretty much told they only deal with apple, and that my design was useless and was worthless. I to wish someone could find the loophole and exploit it!


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## mbw (Oct 11, 2010)

lkmn said:


> The only one he will liscense to is apple. I had a design specifically for the destroyers all drawn up with some interest in purchasing, when I got the same letter from him. I asked about liscensing as a possibility. I was pretty much told they only deal with apple, and that my design was useless and was worthless. I to wish someone could find the loophole and exploit it!


You should talk to a patent attorney if your serious. I'm pretty sure ther would be a way to build a slightly different style without infringement.


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## Brian from GA (Aug 15, 2002)

Ya'll all seem upset with someone having a great idea and wanting to profit from it. I don't understand. Before Leon's Last Chance press no press looked anything like this. At the first ATA show in Atlanta his booth was packed with people checking out his new design. It was revolutionary. I respect that. I know several people that have come up with great archery innovations only to be copied by everyone and their brother and never even break even on a product.... all the R&D, all the trial and error. I like to tinker as much as the next guy.... Sure you can copy it easily and cheaply once it comes to market but do you have the $1000s of dollars wrapped up in creating the very first one? So we have a person, a really nice guy, came up with an idea, built it, put together a staff of folks to help polish it, work out kinks, patent it, market it, so in my opinion he has the right to make a lot of money off this very good idea!


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

I like that he is profiting from it. I applaud him, I encourage him and I think it is a great idea!
I would like him to earn a lot more money by licensing the idea so we could see some more innovation and better pricing. I'm sure Mr. Allen made a tone of money with the compound bow patent but I don't think he made any bows past the early 80's


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## Brian from GA (Aug 15, 2002)

Classy comeback. And I agree with you.... If you can make one, make one. Copy away.... However, if you make one and try to sell it then you have to pay the piper... which is what this thread was all about.


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## mailman (Jul 25, 2007)

Very well explain!!!


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## ManHunterUSMC (Sep 13, 2010)

OK so no one commented on these two things... Make them and paten them as toes... or Teeth... Heck why not name them Talons... That would be sweet!! Now the next step would be to start a DIY fund! People could invest money... 75 bucks... and recieve a free set of Talons. We could donate 5% of the extra money in the DIY fund to a charity! Like the Semper Fi fund or something... Whats the consensis here


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## preacherjack (Aug 23, 2005)

I guess that one guy has all the market wrapped for stabilizers then too. Wow! The problem is not in his design or patent. It is in his selfishness to license. He should offer parts for sale here in the US. If he does not then people will continue to make them and even sell them. Patents are nice, but very expensive and very vague. Personally it is not worth the trouble to prove one wrong on a small scale.


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## Shootin Jim (Dec 27, 2010)

In reading that patent, it would appear the issue is in how the fingers are manipulated. If you had some other form of attachment, I don't think he'd have a case. Oh, and I have just the design in my head too...


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## Vortex69 (Jul 8, 2007)

Brian from GA said:


> Ya'll all seem upset with someone having a great idea and wanting to profit from it. I don't understand. Before Leon's Last Chance press no press looked anything like this. At the first ATA show in Atlanta his booth was packed with people checking out his new design. It was revolutionary. I respect that. I know several people that have come up with great archery innovations only to be copied by everyone and their brother and never even break even on a product.... all the R&D, all the trial and error. I like to tinker as much as the next guy.... Sure you can copy it easily and cheaply once it comes to market but do you have the $1000s of dollars wrapped up in creating the very first one? So we have a person, a really nice guy, came up with an idea, built it, put together a staff of folks to help polish it, work out kinks, patent it, market it, so in my opinion he has the right to make a lot of money off this very good idea!


Very well said and enuff said cause right now I'm in the middle of building and marketing a khevulay Silverado. 

By the way, have the old steel fingers for an EZ for sale.....$40 to your door.


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Guess I've been out of the loop...you mean that NO ONE is allowed to sell a bow press that uses an attachment mechanism like fingers except Last Chance and Apple?? There are no other press manufacturers using something similar? 

If so, then someone ought to come up with an easy way to make some (no plasma or torch or water jet or CNC cutting) to give us DIY guys additional options when making a press. Like square rod, heated with a plumbing torch and hammered over in a vise or something easy like that.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If you want a bow press. Just make the $20 bow press on this DIY Equipment and be done with it. If everyone starts using this diy press for $20 the need for the greatest patten ever filed for will be pretty small.

If I came up with a patten and everyone just wanted to copy it, I would be upset. But if they come up with something that makes my patten worthless then I am really upset. So make the guy really upset.


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## ruttnwapati (Sep 22, 2008)

*Press fingers and the Patent*

Once or twice a year this issue comes up. Nothing new here...Nothings going to change with the patent, finger making/selling or finding a legal way around it. :deadhorse


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## millipede (Nov 15, 2010)

If you change the original design by more the 10% and do not use the trade name they use, you too can patent a nearly identical device. It is very difficult to prove infringement if the design and name are not identical.


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## harden13 (Oct 20, 2006)

If you read the patent closely, there is a loophole. The patent applies to pressing solid limb compound bows. By the nature of the specificity perhaps a split limb bow would not be party to the patent. If, in the product information, users were required to use the product on only split limb bows, I think the patent would be difficult to enforce. If the end user chooses to use the product for purposes for which it was not designed, it would be at their own risk.

Marc


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## edthearcher (Nov 2, 2002)

to me that brings up a question, i have a caution bar press that has served me well. but i hear with the new bear bows 2011 the fingers wont work??? thats also a question. so now if thats true can one of you thats more intovated than me contact me if they can build a set and how much [email protected]


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## Dorafo (Mar 2, 2008)

There is nothing that can stop someone from makeing them for there own use( even tho its illiegal ) just dont tell ppl about it and dont try and sell them.


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## Mich.bowhunter (Jun 29, 2007)

How about he drops the price on his press and sells a lot more of them? Then people wouldn't have to build their own.


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## Dorafo (Mar 2, 2008)

I'm sure he sells alot of them most dealers would rather spend the money and buy one and do a tax write-off then build there own. If someone wants one of his than they can save up the money to get one otherwise build one.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I like bows that don't need a press. Just take a hex wrench and back the limbs off. It takes a little more time but the hex wrench is very portable. If you get real innovative you can use a battery powered drill and do repairs faster. I hope this catches on more and the manufacturers start using barrel nuts in the risers so that there is no problem with riser threads wearing. It seems to me that someone got lazy and that is why we need presses on some bows.


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## FLDartonGuy (Jul 23, 2008)

From what I understand, Last Chance is coming out with a new press for the do it yourselfer. Price is around $300.00. Not really sure what the differences are but if I can find out before the ATA I will post it on here. The local shop near me has the new catalogue that it is in and next time I go up there I will see if I can get a few pix of it.


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## Dorafo (Mar 2, 2008)

Not sure about a press for the diy crowd but I know that they are comming out with one that goes from horizontal to vertical.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

hunt123 said:


> If so, then someone ought to come up with an easy way to make some (no plasma or torch or water jet or CNC cutting) to give us DIY guys additional options when making a press. Like square rod, heated with a plumbing torch and hammered over in a vise or something easy like that.



Check out the last page of my 50$ no weld press.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1321214


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## lkmn (Feb 28, 2006)

Brian from GA said:


> Classy comeback. And I agree with you.... If you can make one, make one. Copy away.... However, if you make one and try to sell it then you have to pay the piper... which is what this thread was all about.


The piper doesn't seem willing to play with anyone but Apple though as I asked him about it in beginning of 2010!


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

I had mine listed as coat hooks but they didnt buy that..lol..Got a message from them real quick.


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## Vortex69 (Jul 8, 2007)

Vortex69 said:


> By the way, have the old steel fingers for an EZ for sale.....$40 to your door.


Sold.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

How about if they were just listed as free and it was $30 to cover just the shipping?
Nuttin being sold that way.
Don.


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## mrbillbrown (Sep 30, 2009)

That's no different than the way people "pad" thier sales on eBay with inflated shipping charges. They might as well give you the item because your paying way over what actual shipping costs. Just my .02


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

Since I cant sell them Maby I could get ez press to buy the fingers I have left..lol


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## lc12 (Jul 30, 2009)

I know a lot of people that ended up having to use some manufactured items for "coat hooks"! Just put a nail through the threaded hole that was used for the adjustment bolt and there you go! Works great and can handle a heavy coat too!
I even used the hole that was for the support rod to hang things from.
In fact, if you get two of them, you can put a dowel through the hole, from one to another, and you can hang various items from them.
My "coat hooks" have all kinds of uses. You just got to use your imagination.
I don't have the means or equipment to make my own, but I know of some that do.
I also noticed on the ATA show site that EZ Press now has their "green press" at a more reasonable price. Come down in price a shade more and I bet they would sell a bunch of these!!!


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

lc12 said:


> I know a lot of people that ended up having to use some manufactured items for "coat hooks"! Just put a nail through the threaded hole that was used for the adjustment bolt and there you go! Works great and can handle a heavy coat too!
> I even used the hole that was for the support rod to hang things from.
> In fact, if you get two of them, you can put a dowel through the hole, from one to another, and you can hang various items from them.
> My "coat hooks" have all kinds of uses. You just got to use your imagination.
> ...


i would think a person could get some 1/2" or 5/8" square mild steel rod, clamp it in a vise, heat it up with a torch and hammer the curve into it. Then quench it so it hardens back up. I'm going to try if I can get hold of some. Anyone have an idea if it would hold the pressure of pressing a bow?


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## bigbubba2001 (Sep 19, 2010)

why not "give"the fingers to a person and charge 30-40$ shipping cant see where that is a crime


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

T-shirts on sale for $35.00 With purchase receive FREE metal type coat hangers.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

EZ press let me know they had the patten on my coat hooks also..lol


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## Mich.bowhunter (Jun 29, 2007)

Glad I had my coat hooks made months ago.Dont know when I will have time to use them though.


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## edmondsmatt (Dec 17, 2010)

Found these while surfing, look a little expensive though. Here


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

edmondsmatt said:


> Found these while surfing, look a little expensive though. Here


They dont look very tall.


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## mailman (Jul 25, 2007)

No they don't and it's a little bit pricy my friend bought one and i'm going to help him build a linear press like mine, i have to cut the rest of the hardware and just save the fingers, also the base of the finger is a bit little bit too long. Will post finish press with these fingers..


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## calvin94 (Jan 21, 2010)

I always kinda of thought they looked like shelf holders to me :wink2:


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## swardlow (Dec 9, 2010)

how about this. make the coat hooks attach them to a 3 foot long peice of oak so that you are now selling a hallway coat rack. he pattened them in the use on a bow press not coat hooks. this makes it a novelty item for guys with a man cave.


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## McDragon (Oct 30, 2011)

Has anyone heard of Prior Art in Patent Law? What that applies to is if you can show that the item in question was in use before someone patented it, then the patent on that particular item is null and void. This has been happening in the software industry for years. Another thing is you can't patent an process or an idea.


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## Mineisbigger27 (Jan 3, 2012)

My uncle invented a device to use with fume hoods in chemistry 
LAbs by the time he had the device done and corrected he was 100k in to it. The patent for 10 yrs was almost 400k. I'm not sure how much a patent in this instance but to make that much money back to pay it off he has to charge alot. I kcal kind of understand where he is coming from but I would still plasma cut some out and I will and use them when I build my own press. Just my .02

Cool thread tho got me thinking


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## HawgEnvy (Mar 2, 2011)

The dude and his attorney can B***h all they want. I'll build them if I want to. Unless of course they want to hand out freebies and save me time. I don't buy anything I can build. They can't do jack about it. All threats,guaranteed. That would mean you couldn't do much of anything DIY since something is being copied


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

HawgEnvy said:


> The dude and his attorney can B***h all they want. I'll build them if I want to. Unless of course they want to hand out freebies and save me time. I don't buy anything I can build. They can't do jack about it. All threats,guaranteed. That would mean you couldn't do much of anything DIY since something is being copied


The letters he has sent out have nothing to do with making parts for your own use,Its for selling them.


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## SeeMont (Jan 18, 2011)

Just finished my press with Coat Hangers I found somewhere. About making them our of 1/2 " key stock or square hot roll steel, not a problem. With the pipe press, I am compressing my Mathews with 70 lbs pull with 3/8" steel with out problem. You are not putting that much pressure on the fingers. I am going to bend and weld my own next time.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

We did some testing with my 1/2" aluminum fingers and you will break your bow before fingers will even think about giving.So 3/8" steel will be fine.


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## kc hay seed (Jul 12, 2007)

there will always be a black market for things like this.what good is the patent if no one buys the ez press? the pro shops can only buy what they need.if everone went to selling them ez would go broke sending out letters.if they would drop the price on them and sell more they would not need to pay for a full time lawyer.


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

All it would take is a person to throw some $ at some attorney fees. I never thought of the bowmaster, that little press right there could void the finger pressing part of the patent. Same threads over and over until someone with $ and knowledge stands up against the LCA threats.

Challenging is only way to test the durability of the patent.


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

I am waiting to hear back from my attorney who works with an actual attorney specializing in patents, but after talking with a couple friends that practice basic family law, they seem to think that the actual item in question has to be patented. Seeing that the patent is not for the actual finger but a press using adjustable fingers, they think anyone making fingers for a bow press would not have much to worry about. But like I said, I am waiting for the advice of an expert.

I would not want to call a certain person out and they could have a patent (I am not saying they do or don't because I don't know either way), but there is an individual on this forum that is making and selling a similar style press, basic concept is the same, that basically uses a set of "fingers" (or at least they do the same thing and they are somewhat adjustable) that compress the bow from the limb tips. I should add that it is a very nice bow press.

I think that LCA's biggest problem is that they sell and hold a patent on an item (bow press) that is super easy for the DIYer to build. I am not down on them for wanting to make money and protect their product, but maybe they should just start selling fingers and call it a day. They could make more money that way. They could even sell DIY kits if they wanted.


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

protonvx said:


> I am waiting to hear back from my attorney who works with an actual attorney specializing in patents, but after talking with a couple friends that practice basic family law, they seem to think that the actual item in question has to be patented. Seeing that the patent is not for the actual finger but a press using adjustable fingers, they think anyone making fingers for a bow press would not have much to worry about. But like I said, I am waiting for the advice of an expert.
> 
> I would not want to call a certain person out and they could have a patent (I am not saying they do or don't because I don't know either way), but there is an individual on this forum that is making and selling a similar style press, basic concept is the same, that basically uses a set of "fingers" (or at least they do the same thing and they are somewhat adjustable) that compress the bow from the limb tips. I should add that it is a very nice bow press.
> 
> I think that LCA's biggest problem is that they sell and hold a patent on an item (bow press) that is super easy for the DIYer to build. I am not down on them for wanting to make money and protect their product, but maybe they should just start selling fingers and call it a day. They could make more money that way. They could even sell DIY kits if they wanted.


Yeah, I was wondering how they get away with it too??? Or do they just ignore the letters/emails???


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

Maybe even LCA does not want to pony up $ to actually defend there "claim", allowing those that have the male fortitude to continue? 

I wonder if letters are cheap, and so far seems a pretty effective scare tactic?


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

I can say that to hire a good attorney in another state and then have your current attorney work with the out of state attorney gets pretty darn expensive.


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## bucktowntrotter (Mar 25, 2011)

So, if there were these coat hangers to be had, where would a poor man find them, craigslist, ebay, PM? Just wondering where all these lawless scoundrels are lurking. Surely it wouldn't be done Privately, through secret Messages. Sure would be weird to get a Message Privately from someone who actually makes a little money out of their hard work. I'm sure they would never read these threads and contact anyone Privately about something they have for sale. Good day. By the way, I am building a bow press myself, just need something to grab the bow on the ends of the limbs, some sort of gripper........ oh well, just thinking out loud. Good day to everyone.


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Pretty soon the fingers will be classified as a schedule 1 narcotic...


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

Crack dealers are more open about what they sell. But I guess they don't have the bow press finger police watching over them.


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## justhunting (Jan 15, 2009)

Can you purchase the EZ press fingers from them direct and just build the rest of it?


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

justhunting said:


> Can you purchase the EZ press fingers from them direct and just build the rest of it?


They wont sell you just the fingers.


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## cncjerry (Jun 28, 2011)

Does the patent have a numbered claim that says something like:

8. A device (as in drawing 1) that is mounted so as to transfer force from the whatever to the bow limb. 

They need to have specifically called out in a claim, as broadly as possible, a reference to the mechanism in this case the finger. Doesn't matter if he called it a finger or not; better for him if he didn't. Also, if he did call out a specific design (as in drawing 1) in the utility patent application then that can be circumvented with a new design. Actually, I think the specific design drawing can be copyrighted. I doubt that is the case (that they patented it broadly enough) otherwise nobody but them would be able to sell a press that matched their claim. One other point: just because it might be represented in a drawing in the utility patent application, if it isn't in the claims, so-what (unless they add it within a timeframe that I can't remember but it is only a few years from the provisional filing date). 

Lastly, I guarantee you he spent more money on one letter than anyone in AT made selling fingers.


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

Patent # 7,597,094

Patent # 7,644,708

Search link:

http://patft.uspto.gov/

Or use google.

I was going to copy and paste, but it was too much. The second patent which is the newer of the two specifically refers to "fingers".


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## McDragon (Oct 30, 2011)

Looking at this patent, one item that becomes blatantly obvious. He has patented the word "Finger"!!1 Sorry folks, Fingers and the word "Fingers" have been around way to long to put a patent on. Ask Bill Gates @ Microsoft about patenting the word "Windows"!!! He lost the battle in court. No contest. No different then attempting to patent "wheel". Fingers don't cut it. All it takes is him to challenge someone and they stand up to him in court. The cost to him would be huge. He would not only have to pay his lawyer, but the other guys as well, plus all court fee. And Microsoft he ain't.

He does have a nice product and the electrical customization is the cats axx, but only bow shops can afford that type of stuff.

just my .02c


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## PowerLineman83 (Nov 15, 2009)

McDragon said:


> Looking at this patent, one item that becomes blatantly obvious. He has patented the word "Finger"!!1 Sorry folks, Fingers and the word "Fingers" have been around way to long to put a patent on. Ask Bill Gates @ Microsoft about patenting the word "Windows"!!! He lost the battle in court. No contest. No different then attempting to patent "wheel". Fingers don't cut it. All it takes is him to challenge someone and they stand up to him in court. The cost to him would be huge. He would not only have to pay his lawyer, but the other guys as well, plus all court fee. And Microsoft he ain't.
> 
> He does have a nice product and the electrical customization is the cats axx, but only bow shops can afford that type of stuff.
> 
> just my .02c


I would agree with this! Also, who gives a didly crap if some guys on some forum make some "fingers" and build themselves a press?!?!?! I'm quite sure that those of us lurking in the DIY threads on AT are NOT the only people that might purchase his product. In fact, I would say those of us who would rather make our own vs. buy are in the vast MINORITY. You either have DIY inside you or you don't.... it's more like a curse actually!

That being said, I do NOT agree with someone making a killing off people selling "fingers". I'm not opposed to covering costs and putting a little jingle in your pocket but lets not get excessive. This is in no way directed at anyone in particular I just wanted to lay out how I felt on the matter.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

PowerLineman83 said:


> I would agree with this! Also, who gives a didly crap if some guys on some forum make some "fingers" and build themselves a press?!?!?! I'm quite sure that those of us lurking in the DIY threads on AT are NOT the only people that might purchase his product. In fact, I would say those of us who would rather make our own vs. buy are in the vast MINORITY. You either have DIY inside you or you don't.... it's more like a curse actually!
> 
> That being said, I do NOT agree with someone making a killing off people selling "fingers". I'm not opposed to covering costs and putting a little jingle in your pocket but lets not get excessive. This is in no way directed at anyone in particular I just wanted to lay out how I felt on the matter.


You couldn't make money on fingers unless you could get $100 a set. Its the time that goes in them.Aluminum is high now.When I was making them it takes three operations on a cnc mill.plus the de burring or an hour in a tumbler. When I made them if I busted but it takes 6 hours to complete 5 sets..Figure that out guys at $125 per hour cnc time plus your labor plus another hour in the tumbler.Or it takes about 2 hours on a water jet, then you have to ream and drill and tap each one.de burr..Just saying any guys that still make them unless they are getting at least $100 a set they aint making squat. Dont get me wrong,I never had to pay cnc or water jet time.I am lucky in that dept..


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## BowHunter4Lif (Jul 23, 2009)

ymurf said:


> They wont sell you just the fingers.


Yes they will, they are $250 a set. Not including the extra draw stop finger.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

BowHunter4Lif said:


> Yes they will, they are $250 a set. Not including the extra draw stop finger.


No kiddin? I was told they wouldn't sell them. Wow,Thats STEEP!


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## cncjerry (Jun 28, 2011)

ymurf said:


> You couldn't make money on fingers unless you could get $100 a set. Its the time that goes in them.Aluminum is high now.When I was making them it takes three operations on a cnc mill.plus the de burring or an hour in a tumbler. When I made them if I busted but it takes 6 hours to complete 5 sets..Figure that out guys at $125 per hour cnc time plus your labor plus another hour in the tumbler.Or it takes about 2 hours on a water jet, then you have to ream and drill and tap each one.de burr..Just saying any guys that still make them unless they are getting at least $100 a set they aint making squat. Dont get me wrong,I never had to pay cnc or water jet time.I am lucky in that dept..


here, here! I agree. Minimum two operations if you helically bore the .5 hole and profile the outside. Even then, there isn't enough demand or profit to even bother to read the patent, especially on forums where everyone wants them for free. I did take the time to see how much they charge for a press and those things are a ton of money. They definitely have the archers by the short hairs assuming someone doesn't get bold enough to fight it out and give them competition. I might go read the claims anyway. They had to have limited their scope since the finger is really just an L-bracket and the press is nothing more than a clamp no matter what you call it, finger/L_bracket, press/clamp. So how did they patent an L-bracket bolted to a clamp? So they must have outlined the process in the claims. I'm curious now.


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## PowerLineman83 (Nov 15, 2009)

ymurf said:


> You couldn't make money on fingers unless you could get $100 a set. Its the time that goes in them.Aluminum is high now.When I was making them it takes three operations on a cnc mill.plus the de burring or an hour in a tumbler. When I made them if I busted but it takes 6 hours to complete 5 sets..Figure that out guys at $125 per hour cnc time plus your labor plus another hour in the tumbler.Or it takes about 2 hours on a water jet, then you have to ream and drill and tap each one.de burr..Just saying any guys that still make them unless they are getting at least $100 a set they aint making squat. Dont get me wrong,I never had to pay cnc or water jet time.I am lucky in that dept..


I was more implying that they were ticked that someone else was making any money at all rather than them. At any rate, the money they are getting for their stuff coupled with cost being less producing in volume makes their profit margin a helluva lot larger than Joe Schmo the machinist's. But if Joe Schmo is a DIY guy worth his salt, he's not looking to get rich off his fellow tinkerers anyhow.

I wish I were a machinist I would have known more the input costs of making a set of fingers. I'm glad you posted that, I had no idea what some fellas would have invested in fingers if they themselves don't have access to the machinery you mentioned and have to pay to have the work done.


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## cncjerry (Jun 28, 2011)

if you think about it, as ymurf above says, $100 or so a set is break even. I don't know if he is including CAD/CAM (CNC programming time) in his estimate and just machine not fully-loaded factory overhead. So a markup of 150% for a set from the manufacturer isn't bad. I spent about 3 hours in another thread taking a look at the stresses on a finger, that time isn't cheap if you have to pay for it. You also have to source the aluminum and right now getting it shipped to the door for under $4 per lb is not happening. Then you have to pack them up and drive them to UPS or USPS, wait in line, etc. So $250 isn't bad, another $100 in parts and you have a press for about half the cost.


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## Hoyt1977 (Jan 22, 2009)

A local company will cut them for me on there CNC plasma for $100 bucks for one set. I didn't ask them what it would be if I had multiple sets cut but I know it would be cheaper as there was set up in that first run. It's like anything the more you buy the cheaper it gets.


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

Find someone locally to you who will laser cut them for you, that is what I have done and only need to touch the 1/2" hole to ream out the taper from the laser. Much cheaper than prices mentioned above.


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

I can make them for a heck of a lot less than $100 a set. I use a waterjet and mild steel. I literally just cut 32 of them in 3 hours, reamed them in 15 minutes, 10 minutes of my time in a vibrator, 10 minutes of my time in a tumble blaster, 1 hour to drill, tap, and debur the 1/4-20 holes. 

With that said, those are my times and methods that work for me. Everyone will do it a little differently which means costs will vary.


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## Chaz2582 (Mar 16, 2010)

I had a set made locally to me, and it only cost me $40. I only ordered 4, but they gave me 5. They quoted me $10 a item, and it was also only in 1/2 in steel. The only thing I had to do was get them a CAD drawing of the item and they laser cut them. I did not have them drill or tap the adjustment hole due to not knowing exactly where I would need it on the item. So I am doing that myself during the build. I got the dimensions from a post here in the DIY section, made a few modifications to the measurements and let them do all the work for me. The rest of the press is being made from scrap square tubing, and metal, that my neighbor had laying around and an old jack that I took the threaded rod out of. I got everything measured, and that is where it has been sitting for the past 6-8 months. I have not had time to get it finished.

My question would be could that company that I had cut my items with the design that I gave them get in trouble for selling them to me? Or would I get the brunt of it for giving them the design to cut? But as stated before on here, I just think it is going to take someone with a little cash to continue selling them and go to court and fight to see what happens with the whole patent thing. Patents are great in protecting something you came up with, and I agree with trying to protect your investment. But if you are not willing to sell rights to other people to offer a more competitive price almost makes it like a monopoly in my eyes. Looking from the outside in, he has the market cornered for this style of press and "fingers", and I thought there were laws against being able to do that. I am not familiar with all that kind of stuff though, just thinking out loud.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

protonvx said:


> I can make them for a heck of a lot less than $100 a set. I use a waterjet and mild steel. I literally just cut 32 of them in 3 hours, reamed them in 15 minutes, 10 minutes of my time in a vibrator, 10 minutes of my time in a tumble blaster, 1 hour to drill, tap, and debur the 1/4-20 holes.
> 
> With that said, those are my times and methods that work for me. Everyone will do it a little differently which means costs will vary.


Yea,You can do it cause you have the water jet,Like me,I have 4 jets and 11 cnc mills and a multis machine at my disposal.And 3 big tumblers. Your not figuring the price it actually takes if you figure the per hour time for machine and labor. And I seen some guys getting laser or plasma ones that work but look like crap. Depends on what a person wants.The ones I use to make are within .005 tolerance or better.Holes are exact,All are tapped and chanfered. If someone goes to a shop,Has fingers made on a cnc I bet its probably going to be over $100 a set. I did it just for the DIY guys on here.I never got close to $100 a set.I figured I just break even after my time,Material,Shipping costs.If I was to charge $125 per hour for cnc time,And like mentioned in another post by someone above thats not even the cad or programming costs figured in they would be high.


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

Ymurf- One set would cost $100 or more if quoted correctly. I have only made them in multiple sets at a time which saves on programing and setup costs. Like I said, I made 32 and it took roughly 5 hours start to finish for all 32. But I already had the drawing and programing done. Even at running 32, I would not make any $.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

protonvx said:


> Ymurf- One set would cost $100 or more if quoted correctly. I have only made them in multiple sets at a time which saves on programing and setup costs. Like I said, I made 32 and it took roughly 5 hours start to finish for all 32. But I already had the drawing and programing done. Even at running 32, I would not make any $.


Thats what I am talking about.At 5 hours for 8 sets.At at least $125 an hour machine time for the 3 hours and $65-$100 labor on the rest of the time and thats not even material or shipping..


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

The only way I break even is that I do the work on my time and the material is leftover from another job and UPS gives us a good discount. The only way that I can see to get the costs down would be to by the cheapest material possible and laser them in at least 100pc lots. But they still require manual labor, reaming, drilling, tapping, chamfer, etc.

$250 from LCA is high though. 

After using my press on a few different bows, I don't see it necessary for the adjustment screw; I think they would work fine with just a fixed finger. That would cut down on the cost some. I am going to make some fixed fingers and test them to see how they compare.


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## ymurf (Feb 4, 2010)

protonvx said:


> The only way I break even is that I do the work on my time and the material is leftover from another job and UPS gives us a good discount. The only way that I can see to get the costs down would be to by the cheapest material possible and laser them in at least 100pc lots. But they still require manual labor, reaming, drilling, tapping, chamfer, etc.
> 
> $250 from LCA is high though.
> 
> After using my press on a few different bows, I don't see it necessary for the adjustment screw; I think they would work fine with just a fixed finger. That would cut down on the cost some. I am going to make some fixed fingers and test them to see how they compare.


Wont work on most Mathews with fixed fingers unless you take the string damper brackets off every time and that would suck with the small screws.one finger has to adjust back for the bracket.
And you are write,I think thats what most people on here are saying.Nobody makes anything on fingers cause you cant figure your time and material or you lose your butt.I just did it as a favor for the DIY people on here.


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## protonvx (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up on the Mathews. I obviously haven't pressed one yet. I have my Carnage and Diamond, a friend's Hoyt, and my brother's PSE, all of which have or will be getting new strings. I have a couple more lined up, but neither are Mathews bows. I wish I would have found this forum a while back. I have been using a bowmaster portable press for a couple years now; it got the job done, but was obviously more time consuming.


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## robm8806 (Jan 11, 2012)

Keep an eye out for a full DIY write up on how to make your own dirt bike clutch levers. Total time 2 hours. For a total of 4 clutch levers


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## gcampbell (Jan 28, 2009)

Waiting for the dirt bike clutch levers


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## caveman72 (Feb 16, 2010)

I went by a local fabricating shop this morning and had drawings of fingers and brackets to get a price on getting them made and the place wanted $250 to make 2 brackets and a set of fingers. What gives I am in process of build and cannot find any that are affordable. I need some help please!!!!!!!


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## robm8806 (Jan 11, 2012)

I run cnc machines for a living and seeing what these parts are used for its not really.worth using a cnc for like preciously said.I use a band saw and finish them with a dremel. Then.strap all 4 together lined up and drill the pivot hole with a Bridgeport.that's really the only critical aspect of this part. The adjusted holes don't really have to be dead nuts perfect I just make sure they are drilled square with the bottom.


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## helim83 (Aug 31, 2014)

ManHunterUSMC said:


> OK so no one commented on these two things... Make them and paten them as toes... or Teeth... Heck why not name them Talons... That would be sweet!! Now the next step would be to start a DIY fund! People could invest money... 75 bucks... and recieve a free set of Talons. We could donate 5% of the extra money in the DIY fund to a charity! Like the Semper Fi fund or something... Whats the consensis here[/QUOT
> 
> Darn sure an idea i can get behind. Maybe find a way to get some of the $ to the wounded warrior foundation as well. This idea has my vote. Everyone wins and great charities will profit as well. Im all about free enterprise but we are community of sportsman. Lets act like it!


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## ridgeway (Aug 31, 2008)

I have about 2.5-3 hours in my fingers. All manual...trace, cut, machine, sand and dip. Should have bead blasted before I dipped...oh well.


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