# Hoyt Formula X and Velos Limbs - Warning



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

moomooholycow said:


> (I'd love for people who have this combination to chime in here).
> 
> This week, I was working with a friend who has two new Formula X risers with Velos limbs. His arrows have been striking the plunger and back is the rest for months, so we took an entire day to try to figure this out. He's a 330 shooter, so he had the requisite skill to ensure a clean release, etc. Long story short, we tired everything and never truly got all of this arrows to come out of the bow cleanly. He began contacting other shooters with this combination (all pulling around 48 lbs.) and lo-and-behold, three others reported the same problem.
> 
> ...


Velos listed weight/length?
DL?
Brace?
Arrow make/model/length/point/spine?


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

I believe 40 lb (measured 48.5 at draw), 380 X-10 at around 31.5-ish, 120 gr tungsten, anywhere from 8.75 to 9.5, center shot anywhere .75 cm in to 2 cm out nominal as viewed from behind.

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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

We tried limbs wound all the way out to all the way in, no love.

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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

Had a similar problem with a combination of Winex riser and older W&W limbs (can't remember their names) with BCY-X years ago.
When i finally switched to FF no contact anymore. Also the bow was unusual loud regardles on tuning with tiller an brace height.
I never found out why. Maybe the string was too harsh for this combination. (never shot bcy-x again btw.)

So, which string material is used?


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm fairly sure 8190

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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Which part of the arrow was striking the ....... did you say plunger?


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

Anywhere from about 2 inches in front of the vanes to .5 inches from the front tape of the vanes. 

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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

theminoritydude said:


> Which part of the arrow was striking the ....... did you say plunger?


Also the back of the rest, which is a Shibuya. There would be tape jammed down in the set screw hole.

Not only "strikes," but it often looked like the arrow often dragged along the plunger for perhaps inches.

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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

moomooholycow said:


> Also the back of the rest, which is a Shibuya. There would be tape jammed down in the set screw hole.
> 
> Not only "strikes," but it often looked like the arrow often dragged along the plunger for perhaps inches.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


I should say either dragged along the plunger or back of the rest where the set screw is.

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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Which part(s) of the arrow?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Did you try any other arrows with different spine?


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

lksseven said:


> Did you try any other arrows with different spine?


One down clearance problems, too weak. Didn't have anything stiffer, but seems like we should have been just about dead-on to slightly stiff with what we had..


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## Mika Savola (Sep 2, 2008)

Sounds weak arrow, also the Chart suggests 350 with those specs...


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## tim.long (Jul 4, 2015)

I found this channel useful for qualitative diagnostics on arrow spine: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmVczwYUfq6sQQjCmKd2q5Q/videos

stiff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeL4xes384M
okay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8XVW4H90g
weak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osXcQqc1XkA


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Around 2 sizes too stiff, if back continues to hit the rest and plunger. As usual, bare shaft will tell you ...


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)




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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

Vittorio said:


> Around 2 sizes too stiff, if back continues to hit the rest and plunger. As usual, bare shaft will tell you ...


Under normal conditions, this would be about right, but we suspect that something else is going on here.


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## Captain Kirk (Sep 11, 2016)

So, was some testing & tuning be done before the considerations?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

moomooholycow said:


> Under normal conditions, this would be about right, but we suspect that something else is going on here.


I suspect something else is going on here as well.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Dynamically stiff arrows don’t do that. Arrows from finger release typically displace to the face side and launch off from there in a parallel, if you’ve setup the plunger to cater for finger release (about one full turn of the plunger) then for a shaft matched for the poundage, it should not be causing the shaft to scrap the riser or plunger housing so badly even if it is too stiff.

This may sound counterintuitive. I think your spine is too soft. If you have some 100gr points lying around maybe you could see if it clears? 

The bow. It’s pretty darned fast, isn’t it? Have you put any shots through a chrono yet?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

What’s the brace height?


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## Ryp (Mar 28, 2017)

Agree with TMD. Had a very similar problem with my arrows with Uukha Vxs. The narrower profile and more aggressive recurve of the Velos limbs resemble the VXs a bit. Likely to be imparting more energy for the same weight off the fingers, so weakening the spine relative to the older limbs. Agree with trying lighter points, but also it may be a back end weight issue. Excess weight on the back end can really exacerbate rear clearance.

Try switching from pin nocks (I think that's what I see on your arrows) to outnocks to drop a few grains, but more significantly, consider switching to spinnies, (or elivanes, spiders, or gas pros) in order to drop quite a bit more back end weight relative to what appear to be flexfletch type of vanes.

Hope this helps



I have never felt
So free, as when trapped between 
My bow and its string


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Is it so complicated to shoot a couple of Bare shafts and see what happens, instead of guessing and guessing only?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Vittorio said:


> Is it so complicated to shoot a couple of Bare shafts and see what happens, instead of guessing and guessing only?


^^^


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## waxyjaywalker (Apr 10, 2013)

And just one more quick thing to strike off the list, the nock tightness has significant impact on the arrow's exit behavior. A too small nock on a too fat string may cause many weird things. Just do the tap test and make sure the nock's not forced onto the string. But seeing all the high end gear mentioned, this is not likely the root cause.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

moomooholycow said:


> (I'd love for people who have this combination to chime in here).
> 
> This week, I was working with a friend who has two new Formula X risers with Velos limbs.


Who's your "friend"?
I'm just curious.......


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> Who's your "friend"?
> I'm just curious.......


I'm guessing Harvey Elwood.


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## MrPhil (Aug 14, 2017)

Ryp, the Velos do not have a more aggressive recurve. It is exactly identical to the recurve of the Xtours.


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## tim.long (Jul 4, 2015)

I always found it funny that in these conversations you'll always get both answers - some people say weak and some people say stiff.

The bareshaft shot is a simple enough test, but you would think with so many experienced archers on this forum that there would be a consensus by now on predicting arrow behavior for a given weight, spine, and draw length.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tim.long said:


> I always found it funny that in these conversations you'll always get both answers - some people say weak and some people say stiff.
> 
> The bareshaft shot is a simple enough test, but you would think with so many experienced archers on this forum that there would be a consensus by now on predicting arrow behavior for a given weight, spine, and draw length.


If those were the only variables, then perhaps one could.


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## Ryp (Mar 28, 2017)

MrPhil said:


> Ryp, the Velos do not have a more aggressive recurve. It is exactly identical to the recurve of the Xtours.


Ahh. My mistake. Just going off a brief eyeball and a few shots of a club mates x/velos setup that I got to play with a few weeks ago. For some reason I came away with the impression that the curve was a bit more aggressive, but didn't directly compare the limbs side to side. Very nice shot feel incidentally.

Would also love to hear further opinions of those who are now shooting this as their primary setup, especially in comparison to the prior X tour limbs.



I have never felt
So free, as when trapped between 
My bow and its string


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Ryp said:


> *Try switching from pin nocks (I think that's what I see on your arrows) to outnocks to drop a few grains*, but more significantly, consider switching to spinnies, (or elivanes, spiders, or gas pros) in order to drop quite a bit more back end weight relative to what appear to be flexfletch type of vanes.


Would not do this until after my clearance issue is corrected. If the outnock hits the plunger it will shear it off. Been there done that.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> If those were the only variables, then perhaps one could.


No kidding! Take my release (PLEASE!) - eliminate my constantly mutating alignment, vascillating between back expansion vs finger pressure expansion, reflex reaction timing. I can make an arrow act 2 spines stiffer just futsing up my finger squeeze to break the clicker, and no one can see the cause, only the result. 

How easy things would be to diagnose if an arrow dynamic was as pristinely addressed/measured as bullet ballistics.


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## Washimesensei (Dec 28, 2018)

hmmmm this is interesting as i find the same issues.


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## chase128 (May 29, 2015)

moomooholycow said:


> Under normal conditions, this would be about right, but we suspect that something else is going on here.


Hi, was there any update on this? Were you able to get the arrows to clear / tune well? (Were the arrows too stiff or too weak?)

Thanks!


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

Ok..the only fix that this person was able to find thus far was to ensure his string hand was as parallel (vertical) to the riser as possible. This had seemed to fix most of it.

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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

moomooholycow said:


> Ok..the only fix that this person was able to find thus far was to ensure his string hand was as parallel (vertical) to the riser as possible. This had seemed to fix most of it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


So... you started a thread telling people there’s a potential problem with a (now well proven) bow because... your friend had a form error?


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

>--gt--> said:


> So... you started a thread telling people there’s a potential problem with a (now well proven) bow because... your friend had a form error?


Nope.. Reading skills:; they're important..

"He began contacting other shooters with this combination (all pulling around 48 lbs.) and lo-and-behold, three others reported the same problem."

Others were reporting it to him, and others have retorted our here (heaven forbid a thread draws together people with similar issues). If this "error" would cause this problem on a widespread basis from other bows, it would have been suggested early on (I'm fairly certain that most of us have done this at one time or another but didn't have massive tail strikes because of it). It MIGHT be that hand positioning is particularly problematic with this combination, but it also might be that this fix only worked for him. I don't own this combination, so I'm not overly concerned about what may or may not be going on; I simply wanted to pass along information that MIGHT have been useful to others in one way or another. I forgot that few good deeds go unpunished around here...


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Whut Vittorio sed!

Tuning is a matter of getting the amplitude and frequency of oscillations of the arrow to properly match the bow and vice versa. Almost universally if you're getting the nock end of the arrow to whack the bow riser/rest, state of tune is off, badly.

Now FWIW in my experience it is possible to have a weak arrow that whacks the bow with the nock end. BUT it has to be VERY weak. Odds are that it is from a stiff arrow. That is the most common cause.


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

Vittorio said:


> Is it so complicated to shoot a couple of Bare shafts and see what happens, instead of guessing and guessing only?


Showed massively weak, but that was WITH heavy tail strikes so unreliable test. Doubt massive weakness in this case.

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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Some barebow archers have been saying that Velos require weaker spines FWIW.

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