# there isn't a quick fix



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

With some of the recent threads and more the responses in them is seems that the lines are being blurred between what should be done to fix the shooter and what should be done to fix the bow. When to decide upon those changes also seems to be causing some trouble for some.

What i've found in the time ive spent around the sport and how i've gotten to where I am today is that fixing the shooter to a level of CONSISTENT repeatability is what is needed to progress shooting to a higher level. What ends up happening is a series of inclines in level of shooting and then a plateau; just keeps going until you are plateaued at the high end of your skill set. Also with this will be declines in score as the personalities learn more or less how to reshoot at 18m, "for score". The declines happen; every time a change is made to form and shot process the scores are going to dip and then rebound once the change has been mastered.

With close work, i cannot stress this enough, do not change the bow to try and instill a better representation of 18m. Its up close for a reason. Don't change lenses to give a smaller sight picture, don't change dots/rings/pins/etc, don't scale target faces(this one is totally pointless if you don't also scale the arrows accordingly as well); just shoot the damn bow and work on fixing the shooter. Believe me, I totally understand how boring and repetitive shooting at 5yds and ONLY shooting the good shots goes... i've been there and have had days where 75% of shots were let down for a number of reasons. Its hard to disconnect from shooting 18m for score and get into the mindset of starting a fresh process that the end result will be better scores. It gets harder when you as a shooter have obligated yourself to shoot 18m scores while trying to work through things on the close bale and your scores are dropping lower than your previous average; at this point is where you need to decide if you want your shooting to get better for the long term or for right now...

When I started I was happy to shoot 300's on a vegas face; then it was above 21x's, then it was 24x's... now its a 28x avg when i'm actually shooting; between the different plateaus the scores dipped and there were changes made and a commitment made to learning the shot and learning the process (you gotta really be set on getting your shot down when you'll more or less time yourself out and pop one off instead of shooting a weak shot). Between one of the last couple plateaus (don't really remember which its been a while and i made a few changes in a shot period) I would either shoot inners or big 9's- that was it. The shots either were on the money or way gone; it took a while to figure out, but more I went from a consistent 300 shooter to now shooting 297's and 296's, but with more inners... after a few weeks as the changes set in and things tightened up i went right back to hitting all the big ones too but now with more x's than before and a more consistent avg.

As you progress your shot to a higher level you increase the certainty that an issue is or isn't yourself. If i put my dot in the middle and shoot a strong shot; it should be in the middle. If i put my dot in the middle and a strong shot is out... then its time to look at equip. But before you can tune away some of the issues the shot has to be there; nock tuning for example, you need to be consistent to accurately nock tune a setup for you... or group tuning... or checking dynamic spine.... the list keeps going. On the close bale while learning your shot you can run more or less any setup and get consistent single hole clean scores; there is no need to play with arrow for shooting up close. Dots, pins, rings-- I've been there as well, different sizes work better for different games and different personalities... BUT when you find one that works for EVERY game, thats when you stop playing for a while (lenses are the same too; It took me 5 years before I played with a different mag lens... my dot covers the same amount of target in my 6x as it does my 3x, getting the clarity the same isn't difficult, my dot still moves the same with each, but i've kinda found I prefer the 3x for an all around setup.... that said I think the 6x might be making a comeback this indoor season) and see how your shot and your setup mesh.

There isn't really a right or wrong for the majority of how to shoot the bow- the important part is doing it the SAME every time.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Great post, Jacob!!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There are a few times when I read a post here on archery talk and I really take it to heart and listen and reading n7709k's post in this thread is one of those times.

It reminds me that he has been a sub 300 vegas guy and then he became a 300 vegas guy and then he made it to a 300 28 vegas guy, to me that makes him ahead of the game compared to me and someone I want to listen to.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Yep. One of the few I pay attention to. Thanks


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

N7709K said:


> ..... just shoot the damn bow and work on fixing the shooter....


I didn't think that this kind of good sense was allowed on AT  

This is one of the better posts I've ever read on AT.

Thank you, Jacob!!!


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

what I was going to add to the subject and not be a funsucker but I remember a arcticle jesse broadwater was interviewed in a few years ago kinda sums archery up for me.

It was to the affect with coaching and directing people shooting how to shoot.This was about helping his wife shoot.

Don't ya think that it would be for his best interest to help his spouse or kids out to shoot perfect scores?

So the point in this is no matter how much JesseB,DaveC,Scott S and all other world class shooters help their spouses out on their shooting some will be aways from shooting perfect shots and that's ok.

So all in all there isn't a quick fix for a very individual sport otherwise the shooters whom have figured it out cant rub off even to their closest family memebers.We are all human and make mistakes.

I think we get on this forum and some think they are gonna get some answers well that's not the case.Good Luck All


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Great post often the op's don't want to hear it is the Indian 99% of the time of course setting up the rig is expected other than sight alignment. A hooter shooter can out any bow in the same hole over and over. It is again as stated so eloquently above the Indian.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes, a excellent post.... Each person being different, different results come as they come. I don't know of any one that shoots perfect everyday, I know I don't. The big thing is to get over it....

Spots drain me. Our NFAA chapter burned me out with the Vegas face. Here, everyone is shooting 30 shots and scoring. Our IAA had us always shooting a 60 shot Vegas from day one. Only when some yo-yo wanted to make our Two Day Indoor Championship the Vegas face did the members howl. Imagine the Vegas face and 60 shots one day and 60 shots the next day.


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## chilipowder (Nov 1, 2012)

Jacob, thank-you for the straight to the point post. Each and every post you make has been very valuable to my progress. I have just recently realized (the very hard way) that I need to stop 'optimizing my bow' and focus on ingraining the level of consistent repeatability. I can tell you that at 50m I can slam 57's with my bow "out of tune" or very much "in tune with arrows singing at 90m". I can take 4 ounce off the back and put them back on and get the same results. Scores have recently plunged since I walked away from 'maybe all try a 2mm dot today' to 'today I train my subconscious how to execute the release'. I can FEEL things starting to develop with my shot routine and I can tell you my confidence is starting to grow. Never had this feeling before when I spent all my waking time attempting to optimize my bow daily (when my overall scores were much higher and was anxious at every comp trying to achieve the scores). Now I know what I can achieve without even consciously thinking about it and I can tell you things are on the move for me. Thank-you once again for all the assistance and advice you have been providing.



N7709K said:


> With some of the recent threads and more the responses in them is seems that the lines are being blurred between what should be done to fix the shooter and what should be done to fix the bow. When to decide upon those changes also seems to be causing some trouble for some.
> 
> What i've found in the time ive spent around the sport and how i've gotten to where I am today is that fixing the shooter to a level of CONSISTENT repeatability is what is needed to progress shooting to a higher level. What ends up happening is a series of inclines in level of shooting and then a plateau; just keeps going until you are plateaued at the high end of your skill set. Also with this will be declines in score as the personalities learn more or less how to reshoot at 18m, "for score". The declines happen; every time a change is made to form and shot process the scores are going to dip and then rebound once the change has been mastered.
> 
> ...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

good post, Jacob !. 
there things in there that no-one eveer talks about....like leaving the bow/sight alone, when you do close work.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks for the great post. Sounds like I've got work to do.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

"Thanks!"


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## Labs (Jun 3, 2004)

great post...I need to hear this from time to time...thanks...


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

Home run Jacob....thanks.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Great post.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Priceless!


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## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

Uff da, I'm gonna go practice now... Good post man thanks


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## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)

N7709K said:


> With some of the recent threads and more the responses in them is seems that the lines are being blurred between what should be done to fix the shooter and what should be done to fix the bow. When to decide upon those changes also seems to be causing some trouble for some.
> 
> What i've found in the time ive spent around the sport and how i've gotten to where I am today is that fixing the shooter to a level of CONSISTENT repeatability is what is needed to progress shooting to a higher level. What ends up happening is a series of inclines in level of shooting and then a plateau; just keeps going until you are plateaued at the high end of your skill set. Also with this will be declines in score as the personalities learn more or less how to reshoot at 18m, "for score". The declines happen; every time a change is made to form and shot process the scores are going to dip and then rebound once the change has been mastered.
> 
> ...




This is the best post I have read in a VERY long time. Hats off to you sir.

It is all about the plateaus, and the steps to reach the next plateau. Indeed there is no 'overnight' fix. Or a week, or a month. You mentioned it was a 5 YEAR PROCESS for you. I hope everyone that reads this post spotted that.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Think like a gardener, work like a carpenter. It's that easy.


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