# Problems of Pennsylvania



## Wholaverj (Jan 22, 2005)

Im not here to tell you about the deer herd god knows we hear enough of that. I am going to give you my 2 pennies on what I feel is wrong in PA.

Pennsylvania is overhunted, period. Too many hunters are in the woods shooting too many deer for big mature bucks to have a chance to grow to full potential. Now dont get me wrong I live in a place where genes and antlers are pretty nice and that but they still dont get a chance to reach maximum potential. I feel that the Anter Restrictions did a hell of a job in Pa and that no one not even youngsters or elderly should be allowed to shoot anything under alloted tine count. I also would like to see 4 point to a side statewide. Another problem is the lack of Game wardens. I hunted in Pa going on 8 years now and have 1 time to see a vehicle from a PGC employee. Poaching is out of control here in PA and sadly thier is no one to stop it. I wish their was some scientific data to back up the management of the deer in PA, and I can honestly say I am thrilled we get a black Bear hunt even though our chances are slim as heck. The bear population is pretty good here in PA. I have seen a huge increse in Black Bear over the past few years and even ran into a mother with 4 cubs back on Friday the 13th while going bowhunting. All in all something needs to be done to grow bigger bucks and the only way to do that is stricter antler restrictions or allocated buck tags.


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## Bonecrusher (Nov 9, 2004)

I agree 100%, with everything you said.


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

You will like this then! My uncle is a retired GC warden. He helps out every year during the Deer and bear season. I live in Western PA and he lives in Venango COunty. He told me that the commission went out on the first and second day to the processors and aged bucks that were legally killed. 72% of the bucks killed were 1 1/2 years of age. We have good genetics but nothing to protect the young bucks. How about them apples!


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## Wholaverj (Jan 22, 2005)

backs up what I was saying, I tell ya if we had a way to protect younger deer, we would be a booner state, and thats no crocket.


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

you have to also stop and think about the 2 week long antlerless season also .how many of the so called Doe's being shot are yearling button bucks that may have the growth potential to be a 150 class deer 

i feel this was ,they should take it back to the 3 day season after the 2 week buck season and no 2nd anterless tag period 

oh and the farmers that post there land every 5 feet and not allow anyone on it too hunt period should not be allowed to claim crop damage thru the year and shoot as many as they wish either .
i feel if they have deer population problem and they are hurting there crops then they need to open there land for atleast a cpl days to clear some off 

just my .02


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## Chevrolet (Apr 18, 2003)

Just my .02 but I agree with what you guys said. Too many doe and button buck being killed. They did an independant study on a deer count up north and came up with a deer population of 3 per square mile. That is pathetic!!!!


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

If you have read the booklet you get with your license ,it has a article in there about waiting too shoot and making sure the anterless deer your taking is infact a doe and not a button buck ,but who in there right mind is going too look and look and look some more to see if it has 2 little nubs on its head ,be realistic here i would assume say 75% maybe higher of the hunters when it is getting close to the end of season look at it this way and i have heard it all too often 
Brown and its down 
and also the little report card that is too be mailed in after harvesting your buck or doe, how many ppl actually send these cards in for the PGC to actually go thru them and see what the harvest rate was and in what county it was taken in ?
if the ppl are not sending them in then the PGC is thinking or guessing as to the amount of whitetails harvested and they always guess low from what i have been told .
The Whitetial population in PA does suck esp on public lands and the deer season in general needs revamped and back to the old days when it was 2 weeks and then 3 days and thats when it was if you did not get you Buck then you got to go for the 3 day anterless not harvest BOTH 

i have honestly know ppl that hunt different county's and have as many as 4 different tags 1 buck and 3 anterless how is this possible?
its just not right ,the meat is getting eaten i am sure but it just isnt right to be allowed to take this many animals 
Too me thats greed but thats my opinion 

ok i am done ranting and raving


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## Chevrolet (Apr 18, 2003)

Yep, that's about it. They are not getting my money anymore.


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

i honestly have not carried a rifle into the woods for many years simply for the reason of the brown and down theory many ppl have ,i thought i was in a war zone when just 3 deer crossed a dirt road while hunting public lands in the licking creek area ,had a tree limb shot with in inches above my head and yes i had a full coverall set of orange camo no excuse !!!

only recently have i gotten back into archery and now i am planning on hunting this coming season thanks too a gentleman in here .
i love small game hunting squirrel mostly and its almost as fun hunting for a huge fox squirrel as it is a huge buck ,just being in the woods is very relaxing 

i will continue to buy my license but if they do as they are talking about noone will be buying them if the raise the cost once agian and for what ,to hire more ppl as wardens 
I hope so ,then maybe we will have the poaching slowed it will never be stopped reguardless how many wardens we have .

and as you stated chevy that just 3% per mile is just wrong we need to act or our hunting here in Pa will continue to deminish severely and we will have nothing but inferiour spikes and scrub racks because of the Button bucks being shot


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## Chevrolet (Apr 18, 2003)

I don't even like hunting archery on public lands, there is no more respect for others that are hunting. You flash guys that are coming to you and they continue to come and climb a tree 75 yards from where you are. I think the true hunter pool in PA has diminished as well. We are going out of state to hunt. My daughter begins hunting next year and there is no way I'm taking her into the PA woods to hunt.:sad:


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## Chevrolet (Apr 18, 2003)

by the way, that was 3 deer per square mile


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## Maine-Archer (Dec 26, 2005)

*Old school laws*

Back 20 years ago P.A. as we all know had either sex for archers, followed by firearms BUCKS ONLY then came three day "Doe Days".
The average hunter just wanted to put meat the freezer. Most archers tagged out and were *done *by Oct10-20..Firearm hunter probably got a spike or four pointer on the first or second day and they were *done*. On Dec 15-17 *some* hunters would return for Does but the majority had their meat and called it a season
Now everyone has a buck and doe tags and the shooting just continues until they are all gone....


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

Chevrolet,i knew it was a square mile just forgot to add that in ,sorry 
and i know exactly what you mean about the flash thing ,when i did rifle hunt many times i had permission to hunt privately owned land or hunted my grandfathers lands and either went to my stand and someone was with in a cpl yards or they were actually sitting in the exact spot i had gotten ready weeks before  

Maine-Archer,thats my point back before they started adding more anterless tags and then put everything together it was decent hunting 

I personally have only ever shot 1 deer and that was a doe about 12 years ago .
had a few bucks walk within archery range 20 to 25 yards but never presented me a good shot so i passed 

but they need to rethink the regulations and do alot more research on the whitetail population in Pa because there are not near as many whitetails as they think there are and it needs to change or it will soon be 1 deer per square mile if even that


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

Guys, 
I hear all of you and agree with all of you on many points. One thing you have to remember is that the GC has their hands tied. I am not going to sit here and say I love the GC but they answer to the elected officials that make up the fish and game board. Those are the big wigs that call all of the shots. They make the GC look bad and let them take all of the heat. We need our voices to be heard to those people that make and impose the rules to the GC. There are 8 people on the board and some of them do not even hunt the ones that do hunt are crooked. The GC wanted to pass a law the banned anyone who had a fine or was arrested in another state for breaking hunting laws. The law breakers would not be able to buy a liscence or hunt in PA for 5 years. The fish and game board voted it down because some of the members had been arrestd out of state. Therefore that would have had to sit out hunting in PA for 5 years. What do you think about that. Crock of $h** if you ask me. Voices need to be heard. Go to the Harrisbug show and talk to the GC and let them know your views. First Ammendment right allow you to do that.


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

Go to the Harrisbug show and talk to the GC and let them know your views. First Ammendment right allow you to do that.


sounds like a plan to me !!!!!

:darkbeer:


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## Chevrolet (Apr 18, 2003)

No hard feelings but I disagree with the game commission not knowing views. They do know our views and have neglected to do anything about them. Actually, the license hike was repealed, not by the GC but by the 8 people you say are tying the hands of the GC. The board takes what the GC says to heart not the other way around. The GC is the one that wanted all the bonus tags to be issued and the board just OK'd it. You can talk to them in Harrisburg but good luck. There is a deeper agenda here and the GC knows there are few deer in the woods, that's the way they want it. Game Wardens are told to keep their mouths shut, that's coming from two Game wardens personally. The GC doesn't want to listen, bottom line.


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## Dan Seitz (Nov 6, 2006)

*Pa. Deer Situation*

Opinions are all over the board on the Pa deer situation. If you hunt on private land with lots of deer and opportunities, you might shake your head in disbelief and puzzlement of all the "complaining" going on. You're seeing bigger bucks and can't imagine why anyone would not support the Game Commission in what they are doing.

If you hunt public land, however, and have seen the deer virtually disappear in the last few years, the last people you want to give an increase in funding to is the Game Commission. People in this category think hunting stinks in Pa and for them it really does.

There are too many hunters in Pa to have good deer hunting with the current herd reduction program ongoing. There are just too many deer being killed. BUT this overly generous hunting opportunity with concurrent buck and doe seasons lasting for 2 weeks and inline muzzleloaders for a week on doe during the archery season is not an error in judgment by the Game Commission. They are not going to say, "Oops, sorry" and make a correction to bring the deer back on public land. What has happened is exactly what they planned to happen. The barren public lands are exactly what they were shooting for to address "habitat" issues.

So, in a lot of areas, hunting stinks and will stay that way. What you see is what you get.


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## trophyhuntin69 (Jan 9, 2007)

Well i feel for you guys in PA. My dad used to own and run a hunting ranch in southern Illinois. Out of all the hunters at least 35% of them came from PA. I think u guys are right about having too many seasons for the amount of deer you have. I wish Illinois would do the 4 point to a side rule. One thing we did around here was bought hunting rights to sections of ground from farmers and told the wardens anyone without a permisson card was to be arrested. It really cut down on the tresspassing. But we also dont have the rifle season which i think kinda helps. Not trying to interject on ya'lls issues but i hope it all works out for you guys. Happy hunting


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

I think that antler restrictions work modestly at best. With decent genetics, there are going to be alot of 1 1/2 yr old 8point bucks. The only real way to shoot bigger bucks is to let the age class structure mature. We are in the same situation where I live in KY. The bucks will never have a chance to grow old in my state of KY and I assume it is the same in PA because it would require a prohibition on bucks for 2 years. It would also require a rifle season that is not in the peak of the rut. KDFWs just wants to sell licenses. KY has decided to try to kill every deer in the state (trying for a 1:1 BD ratio). With alot of counties allowing unlimited doe harvests. I still see the same scrub bucks as I used to when we had alot of deer. But, now it is a chore to even see a mature doe in my county. 

Sorry to hijack but, I think that if states wanna have big bucks and attract hunters, then follow the lead of the midwest states and they will get what they want.


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## Chevrolet (Apr 18, 2003)

Habitat- now there's a good one. I've hunted the same area for 30 years, they fenced in areas to keep deer out and the only difference in 30 years are pine trees growing in the area they fenced off. I have one word for the PA Game Commission. *BANKRUPT* There aren't enough deer in the area we hunted to damage the habitat. If they are so worried about the habitat why did they introduce elk to the same area they had all the deer shot off of. An elk is a huge deer, they graze and eat what they can to survive. It's a big game for them to see how long they can lie and get away with making money doing it. You wait and see over the next 10 years if it lasts that long. You better protect those private grounds you hunt on, the GC wants them shot off too. Why do you think they are so frustrated with the amount of deer on private grounds, thus the "private doe tags" they gave several years back. We need to wake up.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

well i tried to stay out of these PA threads and i knew i shouldn't have opened this one but since i did here is my 2 cents. i was born and raised in PA i have hunted there for many years and have watched it go straight to hell. we all got what we asked for though. for years we complained we wanted BIG bucks and needed to do something to increase the size of the bucks. this is the price we have to pay. all the problems that the state has is due to the pgc's plan to produce bigger bucks through out the state. and trust me this is in no way me defending the pukes of the pgc.

here are the facts. antler restrictions amount to a puddle of p!ss. the only thing they did acomplish by them is to slightly decrease the number of bucks being shot. but of the ones that are shot a vast majority of those are still 1 1/2 year old bucks no different than before. we're just killing off the good genetics. all of the 1 1/2 year old six and eight points leaving the inferior genetics in the gene poll to produce the next generation of deer. just because they set anter restrictions the bulk of the hunter didn't all of a sudden become better hunters more capable of out smarting more mature animals so that that on antler restrictions they save a few but hurt the gene poll more than they help.

then on to the next step in creating bigger bucks. a balanced deer herd. or in the eyes of the pgc kill all the does. we we did that you think it might be time to stop? they say no there are still too many does state wide. why you ask? because the worse hunting gets in the state the more private land that gets closed now the population on the private land gives off false info for the rest of the state because the population there is still outragouse. but that same outrageouse poulation still gets factored into the over all number of the population for the entire wmu that the doe tags are broken down into. so because 40% of the wmu is over populated private ground they hand out 40,000 doe tags for that unit where only maybe 400 hunters are even allowed on the over populated grounds to hunt. the other 90% are stuck on severly under populated public ground where if you see a doe you had better shoot it because it may be the last deer you see all season. make sence?

now what you have is the 90% stuck on public land are complaining and rightfully so that there are no deer left and hunting pretty much sucks. while the 10% who get to hunt private ground are like "you guys are crazy. this plan is great we see monster bucks and tons of deer every day. you guys just need to learn how to hunt or hunt harder." 

the fact of the matter is PA has too many hunters. wich would not be a bad thing if half of them were responsible. in PA hunting is more of a contest he who kills the most wins and size don't matter. hunters will take full advantage of every tag issued and then some. and us true hunters (the ones with a love for the sport not the kill) are left to pay the price.

does anyone remember what it was like 15-20 years ago when you only got 1 deer tag and you applied for a doe license if you shot a doe in archery season you forfited your buck for the year? i think an off shoot of something like that would be very benificial for the state.

with out a doubt the 2 week doe season has to end. all bonus tags need to be made for private land only the way they were a few years ago. because that is where the excess does are. i think buck tags should be on a draw basis and just do away with antler restrictions all together. if you get lucky and draw a tag and want to use it on a 1 1/2 year old spike go for it. then that 1 1/2 year old eight point will make it to breed another year and hopefully another few years till he reaches his pontential.

i don't ever really want to see the population get back to as unbalanced as it was 10 years ago but i would like to see it get back to where you actually see deer when you hunt.

again this thread is not to defend or take anyones side just my opinion on the matter i think we're all wrong.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

oh and the one other thing i forgot to mention.

mandatory game checking stations need to be implemented. where any and all deer or other big game for that matter has to be checked in at one of these checking stations. where you will be issued a possecion tag at that point.

that's the way it is here in west virginia. you can't even take your deer to be proccessed with out a posseccion tag. because if the game commission check at a deer proccessor and they have deer there with no posseccion tags they get hung out to dry. as well as any one who has been turned in or under suspicion the game commission can come in and check their freezer if it's full of deer meat and they don't have the tag to prove it was leagally shot and checked in they are done for.

this would serve 2 purposes. first off the PGC would have actual numbers to go off of when estimating harvest. and 2 jump up the number of poachers brought to justice. now days it's so hard to prove a deer was shot illeagally unless they are actually caught. this way you could easilly turn someone in the pgc could check up on it if there is no posseccion tag well your @ss is grass.

and before someone comes in with the argument of there are not enough officers or people willing to run check stations i already have the soloution to that. all licesning agents would be required to run checking stations. and for thier trouble they will also be permited to charge a 2 or 3 dollar issueing fee for all license sold. in a state with over a million hunters that alone would make it worth their trouble. esspecially for little mom and pop shops. that's could easilly be an extra 10,000 dollar income


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

Bowgod ,
yes i remeber the days when if you shot your deer,buck or doe then you forfieted the right to hunt .

and i hole heartedly agree with all you said and the manditory check stations would work also ,but there would still be that percentage that will do there own deer up themselves to save the money .

poaching is way out of hand simple as that .we need more wardens to patrol plain and simple 

very well put bowgod


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

bluemagic66 said:


> Bowgod ,
> yes i remeber the days when if you shot your deer,buck or doe then you forfieted the right to hunt .
> 
> and i hole heartedly agree with all you said and the manditory check stations would work also ,but there would still be that percentage that will do there own deer up themselves to save the money .
> ...



thank you now to adress the problem of guys skipping the check station and doing their own deer. even though that number is very small compared to the number of hunters in the state. i do all my own deer and have been doing so for years just because it cost so much to have it done. but i do have to check all my deer in anyway. for the simple fact that if for any reason the wvdnr suspects that i have deer that were not checked in weather someone would call and report me or any other reason they would suspect me. they can come into my house and check my freezer. if it's full of meat and i can't prove that it was leagally killed i'm toast. even the deer i shoot in pa i keep all those tags on top of my freezer until the meat is gone. so if they were to come and check i have proof of where the meat came from.

this would not stop all guys but it would deter some and make it easier to bust the others. now days you can report someone for poaching but if the pgc doesn't actually catch them they can't prove the deer was illeagally taken. this way if we were to report someone for poaching the pgc could go in and check if they have a freezer full of meat and no posseccion tags or proof of where the meat came from well then it was apperently poached or illeagally harvested and the proper actions can be taken.


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## cjsholes (Dec 14, 2006)

*bowgod*

well put. 

I have noticed that certain regions of the state are suffering with extremely low populations, while other regions seem to be doing great. I have had a tremendous year, hunting public land. I had several days that I saw well over 30 deer and no hunters. And, I got my money's worth on those new hiking boots. If you want to be successful, you need to adapt your approach to the pursuit. Also, I have seen multiple mature bucks this year. 
While I don't agree with everything the PGC does, some things are working...


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## Dredly (May 10, 2005)

- 4 pts to a side will do nothing but increase the number of abonded deer.

- PGC is outmanned, disband them and make the Police in charge of poaching. Your talking about an armed felon with a high powered rifle, 
poachers pose a risk to society and violate multiple laws, we don't need a "security force" of people when we already have one. 

- Checking stations won't do any good, as stated, people will just abandon the deer. 

- Population explosions in many counties are making hunting difficult and forcing people onto already overpopulated public land. The number of hunters who only hunt 2 weeks out of the year is insane.

- If people DON'T post their land they are swarmed with people who are a danger to other hunters and themselves. Also, the gov has not passed that "land owner protection" act yet so if somone shoots somone while on their land the landowner is responsible. Why would you open yourself to that?

so I'm going to suggest some alternatives:

- 3 days of rifle season for PA residents ONLY
- after first 3 days out of state hunters may come flood our woods.
- 2 weeks of "rifle season"

Shotgun / Inline only. No more 30-06 rifles or .308's!

The first thing we need to do is stop the rifles.


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## bluemagic66 (Nov 28, 2006)

Dredly said:


> - 4 pts to a side will do nothing but increase the number of abonded deer.
> 
> - PGC is outmanned, disband them and make the Police in charge of poaching. Your talking about an armed felon with a high powered rifle,
> poachers pose a risk to society and violate multiple laws, we don't need a "security force" of people when we already have one.
> ...


why would anyone abandon food they are going to put on the table?
that would be like going to the steak house ordering sirlion tips and setting it on the table with a free sign !!

disbanning the PGC will never happen we need more of them in the field period.

if i am not mistaken without opening my booklet ,a mistaken kill (buck without correct points) is a fine of 25 dollars and they keep the horns 

shotgun/inline only will never happen ,why discredit the high powered rifles ?
they are not the ones killing too many deer the ppl that carry them are or any gun for that matter .

as has been stated earlier and i will agian ,the rifled deer season needs to be returned to the 2 week antlered/3 day anterless 

as for the check stations excellent idea they do it for bear why not whitetails also ,and if the a person is reported for poaching or not checking there whitetails ,the PGC honestly has more rights then that of a State Trooper where search and seisure is concerned if i am not mistaken a conservation officer does not need a warrant too search your freezer and if you are found to have venison in your house whether it be frozen canned (needs to have person whom canned name on jar) you had better be able to provide proof you legally shot it with this years or last years tag on it and they will check and see if you handed in your report card for taking the said animal and if not then you will be fined for not doing so 

Dan Clark was at the juniata county sportsmans club this past week for there monthly meeting ,i did not know he was going ot be there or i would have gone ,but my son asked him about the possibility of changing the season back to the old ways and he said it will NEVER happen 
kinda makes you wonder what they are thinking


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

*one more thing to add to my previous post*

one of the biggest yet over looked factors contributing to the problems in PA is the simple fact that there is no way you can properly manage an entire state based on one generalized management plan. quality deer management works great when properly employed. just look at the ranches in south texas. but the key word is properly employed. you can not write up one plan to cover an entire state. that makes too big and diverse of an area. the only way qdm can work is seperate management plans for each different area. and the current wmu system for breaking down the state into areas is still too large of an area. the only way they could even come close to making an idea like that work would be to break it back down to counties and i fear that even in alot of cases through out the state that a county by county break down would still be too large.


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## archerever (Dec 15, 2006)

*many things well said, but*



BOWGOD said:


> well i tried to stay out of these PA threads and i knew i shouldn't have opened this one but since i did here is my 2 cents. i was born and raised in PA i have hunted there for many years and have watched it go straight to hell. we all got what we asked for though. for years we complained we wanted BIG bucks and needed to do something to increase the size of the bucks. this is the price we have to pay. all the problems that the state has is due to the pgc's plan to produce bigger bucks through out the state. and trust me this is in no way me defending the pukes of the pgc.
> 
> here are the facts. antler restrictions amount to a puddle of p!ss. the only thing they did acomplish by them is to slightly decrease the number of bucks being shot. but of the ones that are shot a vast majority of those are still 1 1/2 year old bucks no different than before. we're just killing off the good genetics. all of the 1 1/2 year old six and eight points leaving the inferior genetics in the gene poll to produce the next generation of deer. just because they set anter restrictions the bulk of the hunter didn't all of a sudden become better hunters more capable of out smarting more mature animals so that that on antler restrictions they save a few but hurt the gene poll more than they help.
> 
> ...



why should the private land owners, i happpen to be one, have the bonus tags only, i don't think that is a good idea, we have spent the time and money in food plots, deer management, cooperation with other local landowners to make our hunting situation better. we like seeing lots of deer and a couple of p&y deer every year, starting to get as exciting as ohio, next deer my be a monster. i understand you other ideas but you need to rememeber who killed all of the does off of the public ground, the public hunters not the private land owners, we saw what was coming and decided to take action so we could preserve what we had. bonus tags for private land owners not a good idea, i think if you have a doe problem, chances are it is being taken care of with crop damage tags. the check stations are a good idea, don't think it will solve all of our problem but would help, problem is with the search, i have worked in law enforcment and have a degree in criminal justice and you cannot just go in a search someones house because you think they did something you have to have more than just reasonable suspicsion, a ohone call does not consititute that, as it stands now you would still need to catch them red handed, the idea is good but it will need support from legistature, i don't know how that would go over. slug guns only a great idea, no spotlighting great idea, something needs to change in the way pa is managing there deer seasons, so far we did what we said we wanted to do, less deer bigger bucks, that HAS happened all you have to do is look at the record book entries over the last 20 years and you will see an increase, also the number of bigger bucks being killed, and they are not all being killed on private land trust me! just my 2 cents


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

archerever said:


> why should the private land owners, i happpen to be one, have the bonus tags only, i don't think that is a good idea, we have spent the time and money in food plots, deer management, cooperation with other local landowners to make our hunting situation better. we like seeing lots of deer and a couple of p&y deer every year, starting to get as exciting as ohio, next deer my be a monster.


that is the exact reason why bonus tags should be private land only. private land owners have control over what gets taken on their property. the problem with bonus tags is they keep dishing them out. because some areas of each wmu are still way over populated. and i can assure you that these areas are not public land. private land only bonus tags would eliminate the over harvesting on public land and give some relief to some of the over populated private ground. not to say that all private ground is over populated some property owners have done a great job of responsibly manageinng the heard. but still others are over populated and when the pgc comes up with their est. number for each wmu these over populated properties factor into that number ******ing the number of tags issued for that wmu. and i think we all know that there are not anywhere near enough responsible hunters in the woods to think "well this place is under populated i better not shoot 3 does just because i have 3 tags"

trust me on this i have seen waay worse than PA is right now but at the rate PA is going they're catching up quick. .


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## archerever (Dec 15, 2006)

*ya i understand where your coming from*

i guess just because they allow the private land owners the option to buy a bonus tag doesnt mean we have to. why not just not give any bonus tags period, the only problem i see with the private land owners having tags is it will make it very hard to keep people off, it is a donting task right now, let alone people think all the deer are there and were are the only ones who have tages, i just think it will cause more problems than i already have, my vote goes to just no bonus tags at all.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

archerever said:


> i guess just because they allow the private land owners the option to buy a bonus tag doesnt mean we have to. why not just not give any bonus tags period, the only problem i see with the private land owners having tags is it will make it very hard to keep people off, it is a donting task right now, let alone people think all the deer are there and were are the only ones who have tages, i just think it will cause more problems than i already have, my vote goes to just no bonus tags at all.




i'd be all for that too. the only problem with that is that it still don't solve the over population of said areas. and as long as wmu's contain over populated areas the pgc is going to continue issueing tags to solve the over population. the only soloution is to get the population in check in these areas. thus the need for bonus tags. it's quite simple. bonus tags for private land only. if your private land is not over populated don't use them if it is over populated take use of the tags and even possibly allow a few extra hunters in for antlerless hunts only. if everyone is not willing to work together hunting is going to continue going down hill. 

the point is the pgc will not decline the tags until the population in each wmu is in check. if they continue to give all the general bonus tags there will be nothing left on public land then the private land owners will have their hands full. trust me on this. where i live now it's about 95% private and 5 % public land. and since it's so much private land and access is about impossible to come by the population is way too high for the most part. therefore everyone is allowed a bunch of does every year. i tried hunting the public land here in 2 years i saw exactly 2 deer and i am no slouch of a hunter i do alot of leg work and hunt hard and my tract record will back that up. but back to the point public land has next to no deer and private land owners spend more of their season chasing off tresspassers than actually hunting. for the simple fact that if you want to shoot a deer here you either have to own land or sneak into someone elses land. 

PA has got incredible potential if everyone were to get on one page. this is the reason i don't point fingers at pgc or anyone else. we are all to blame but instead of doing anything about it we would rather point fingers and blame others. 

private land owners point fingers at the less fortunate for tresspassing and shooting their deer. less fortunates point fingers at the pgc for killing off all the deer. and pgc points fingers at the over populated areas as the reason to shoot off even more deer.
and to an extent all above mentioned are right. private land owners have every right to be pissed about spending all their time chasing unwanted hunters out. 
public land hunters have every right to be pissed about spending their entire season and possibly never seeing a deer.
and the pgc's job is to make sure the heard is at it's healthiest number state wide.
they are just doing their job.

now to reverse it and point out the faults. pgc need to acknowlege that this over population is not occuring on public land and in many cases the population on public ground is dangerously low. 
public land hunters need to realize that they are just as responsible for the decreased numbers as anyone else. and stop shooting as many deer as they can get tags for. and deture others that they know from doing so as well.
private land hunters need to sympathize with the rest of the state and do their part to help the problem rather than holding on to the aditude of "we still see a ton of deer there's nothing wrong with the population you guys just aren't hunting right.........." i know it's your land and your right but on the other hand private land owners need to get over the need to see 30 deer a day and help cut back the numbers on their land as well. not saying to anialate the population just bring it down to a healthy number and in many cases on private land they are not at healthy numbers. if your seeing 30-40 deer a day your over populated and a big part of the reason the pgc continues to issue soo many tags.

it's a vicious cycle that PA is stuck in and sadly i don't see anyone changing any of it.


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## archerever (Dec 15, 2006)

*i agree*

it is a cycle that there seems to be no end. we all do need to get on the same page, and yes if you are seeing 30 deer a day then yes we are back to being overpopulated, in our situation the reasons we are seeing that many deer the first day of deer season is because we are the only hunting group in the are that does not drive, we still hunt and let the deer come to us. On an average day archery hunting you can expect to see 5-10 deer. what do we do will the areas like allegany, bucks counties that no one seems to want to hunt, the pgc need to realize that just because that there are pockets of overpopulation that the enitre states doe allocation needs be increased. yes there are many areas that need to be address, but the areas with no or little deer far outweigh that areas with an abundance of deer. for example they did that deer pop survay and a local state park was chosen (blue knob state park) they found 4 deer per square mile, wow, thats pretty pathetic. yes something needs to happen but it seems like our pleads seem to fall on deaf ears as far as the pgc is concerned, that is was is scary, i don't think it is the game warden on the road who will not listen it is on up above, they are on the street everday and know what is going on. we can complain and whine all we want but there is no one listening, the pgc all they are intrested in doing seems to be increasing fees. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that people are not going to pay more for less, that only seems to harbor the poaching and illegal hunting, therfore tresspassing. that does no one any good.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

archerever said:


> it is a cycle that there seems to be no end. we all do need to get on the same page, and yes if you are seeing 30 deer a day then yes we are back to being overpopulated, in our situation the reasons we are seeing that many deer the first day of deer season is because we are the only hunting group in the are that does not drive, we still hunt and let the deer come to us. On an average day archery hunting you can expect to see 5-10 deer. what do we do will the areas like allegany, bucks counties that no one seems to want to hunt, the pgc need to realize that just because that there are pockets of overpopulation that the enitre states doe allocation needs be increased. yes there are many areas that need to be address, but the areas with no or little deer far outweigh that areas with an abundance of deer. for example they did that deer pop survay and a local state park was chosen (blue knob state park) they found 4 deer per square mile, wow, thats pretty pathetic. yes something needs to happen but it seems like our pleads seem to fall on deaf ears as far as the pgc is concerned, that is was is scary, i don't think it is the game warden on the road who will not listen it is on up above, they are on the street everday and know what is going on. we can complain and whine all we want but there is no one listening, the pgc all they are intrested in doing seems to be increasing fees. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that people are not going to pay more for less, that only seems to harbor the poaching and illegal hunting, therfore tresspassing. that does no one any good.




i'm sending you a pm let's chat


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## archerever (Dec 15, 2006)

*ok sounds good*

sounds good


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## Ed Bock (Apr 1, 2006)

*Poaching ----*

a bit off point, but if you want to see some horrible poaching cases get a copy of the PA Game News - we have some really nasty dudes out there.


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## ruger27077 (Jan 6, 2005)

Very well put BowGod!!!I personally would like to see spotlighting banned also.I think that would be the first step to "help" curb poaching.Both the 130 class bucks I was watching this year where shot under spotlight.(found them in the Field the next morning on different nights)I did call the GC but I feel there a little out manned when you figure how many miles each warden or deputy are trying to cover.


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## mpetrozza67 (Jan 9, 2005)

*No Food*

you know I agree with a lot of the comments especially about the check stations. but I have not seen one comment on the fact that there has not been any logging or any type of food plots put in on any of the public lands in over 25 years on a very large percent of public land. If you are not going to log out some trees every now and then you have to do some kind of food plot to keep the deer in the area. Its not that the deer population is down its the fact that there is no food for them on public land. its really simple. if you go to your refridgerator every night and there is no food in it eventually your going to head to a restaurant. well the deer have gone to the restaurant. and it is on private land. that is not the private land owners fault, that is PGC fault. I am so sick of hearing how broke they are when all they have to do is some selective logging and they can earn millions of $$$$, and the best benifit is that there would actually be some food for the deer to eat. But the number one thing that we need to do is follow the lead of Ohio, Illinois, Indiana. NO RIFLE HUNTING PERIOD and I don't care how many rifle hunters this upsets. Look at the deer population in Allegheny County where ther is no rifle hunting allowed, I only drive 7 miles to work and I see at least a half dozen deer every day, and now with the cold weather its even more than that.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

rmcchef said:


> you know I agree with a lot of the comments especially about the check stations. but I have not seen one comment on the fact that there has not been any logging or any type of food plots put in on any of the public lands in over 25 years on a very large percent of public land. If you are not going to log out some trees every now and then you have to do some kind of food plot to keep the deer in the area. Its not that the deer population is down its the fact that there is no food for them on public land. its really simple. if you go to your refridgerator every night and there is no food in it eventually your going to head to a restaurant. well the deer have gone to the restaurant. and it is on private land. that is not the private land owners fault, that is PGC fault. I am so sick of hearing how broke they are when all they have to do is some selective logging and they can earn millions of $$$$, and the best benifit is that there would actually be some food for the deer to eat. But the number one thing that we need to do is follow the lead of Ohio, Illinois, Indiana. NO RIFLE HUNTING PERIOD and I don't care how many rifle hunters this upsets. Look at the deer population in Allegheny County where ther is no rifle hunting allowed, I only drive 7 miles to work and I see at least a half dozen deer every day, and now with the cold weather its even more than that.




this is true and untrue at the same time. the efforts i have seen from the pgc to aid the habitat have been minimal. in some areas there has been some clear cutting done but in alot of other areas they haven;t done much if anything. on the other hand on alot of public land the dcnr paired with the n*** have gone the extra mile and put in several food plots. the purpose is mainly for turkey habitat but the turkeys are not the only ones benifiting form these efforts. 

PA has way too many problems to settle it with one fix. you can't narrow it down to one problem or one group of people. the entire state has more issues than TIME LIFE. like i stated earlier you can't blame everything that's going on on anyone because just about everyone has their involvement in the way things are. it's easy to point fingers at the problem areas that don't involve us but with out sacrifice on the part of all parties i just don't see these problems ever getting fixed. when it all boils down the way i see it is first off the state is way to big of an area to ever be properly managed as a whole. qdm works great when properly implemented but each property has is very own set of characteristics and needs. there is no way to set a managememnt plan to fullfill the needs and characteristics of a single piece of property as big as the state of PA. the second problem is the number of hunters in the state. first off with that there are too many hunters (or people who hunt i won't call some of those hunters:zip: ) the numbers when broken down into a hunter/huntable land ratio is astronomical i have the exact numbers here somewhere i will try to find those and post them here for everyone to see. second problem with the number of hunters is there is no way to ever get that many hunters on the same page to follow any guidelines set forth by any management plan. too many of those that i won't call hunters take to the woods every year if you know what i mean. so even if it was possible to set a qdm plan for a property the size of PA it would never work. becaus ethe only reason qdm works on the qdm properties like in IL,TX,IA,OH is those plans were built to taylor to the needs of those paticular properties and every one who hunts those properties follow very strict guidelines and follow them to the T.


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## mpetrozza67 (Jan 9, 2005)

I do not disagree with you on the fact that PA's problems are numerous but we need to start somewhere and logging seems like a very sensible and profitable start that has been overlooked for way to long now.and I dont even want to get started on the rifle season because I could write an entire book on my complaints about that. But it is time for PGC to step up and start making PA a better place to hunt, and it is our responsibility as hunters and conservationists to do our part as well. I am just tired of having to pay for non resident licenses and drive to Ohio to have a real shot at a quality whitetail when we have the genetics to produce those kind of deer in PA


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## goosehunter2118 (Jan 24, 2007)

"Shotgun / Inline only. No more 30-06 rifles or .308's!

The first thing we need to do is stop the rifles."
What are you talking about??? PA is mostly woods so it wouldn't make a difference if we went to inlines that shoot 200 yards anyway. Let's get real here. Getting rid of rifle is a flat out dumb idea. Sorry, but it is the honest truth. Why don't we cut out some bow time too if you wanna play that game? 
Right now I hunt in 5c, 5d, and 3c. The deer population in the SE part of the state is beyond help. Seems like there is an endless supply of does around here. As for the dreaded nothern zone, yes, there is a SLIGHT problem. The deer numbers have declined, but we have taken the 4 biggest deer in camp history since AR has started. In fact, I have proposed that we go two 3 points to one side excluding the brow tine this up coming year to let those small 6's walk. People who deny that AR is working either don't scout enough, or simply aren't in the woods enough. As for HR, yes, I believe we have gone too far and the simple answer is to let a doe walk and MANAGE your property. For the guys that hunt on public land, scout, scout, and scout some more. That stand you killed the "big one" 15 years ago isn't any good anymore. C'mon, we all think it is, but it isn't. To the person who said the reason why there are so many deer in the SE part of the state is because you can't use rifles, I guess you don't live here. The reason is NO ONE will allow you to hunt, period. My slug gun can kill a deer at 150 yards or more, so slugs do not really limit your range or inlines for that matter. So here is my ideas. Limit the doe tags in counties where hunters complain. Go to a 3 day concurrent season, but still run the buck season two weeks. 4 points to one side state wide would help too. Alright, I am done. Time for bed because I got to get up early and scout for the September opener this year.:wink:


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## VA HEAD HUNTER (Aug 27, 2006)

there is no doubt about it that the ARS has been the best thing for pa and its hunters, but the sad fact and truth is that there is still too many people no abiding to those laws, you still have more people that shoot anything then you do people that follow the restrictions, you can also ask the question why dont they log to help with hunting, the truth to that is that believe it or not to logg off enough land to make a difference state wide would cost more then the state makes off of hunting, its a sad fact that as hunters we are not as powerful as we think we can be when it comes to the state and federal levels. there is no fix for the issues if everyone isnt on the same page and i hate to say that it doesnt look like thats gonna happen, he11 take us for example here in va we have one of the longest seasons if you include our urban seasons and we are so over populated with deer but we cant hunt on sundays, therefore how can the numbers of deer come down if the average hunter can only hunt one day a week? but look on the bright side for pa, you guys are producing some big bucks now and good job to those following the ars and shame on you for those that arent,


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## jim570 (Jan 23, 2006)

goosehunter2118 said:


> "Shotgun / Inline only. No more 30-06 rifles or .308's!
> 
> The first thing we need to do is stop the rifles."
> What are you talking about??? PA is mostly woods so it wouldn't make a difference if we went to inlines that shoot 200 yards anyway. Let's get real here. Getting rid of rifle is a flat out dumb idea. Sorry, but it is the honest truth. Why don't we cut out some bow time too if you wanna play that game?
> ...


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## goosehunter2118 (Jan 24, 2007)

I am sorry that your son did not see anything. It is a shame when you don't see any deer, but I remember being a young pup and having many deerless days with my father, but we still had fun and even talk about some of those hunts now. I will not deny that the herd is down, but the local farmer saw 28 deer on the opener on stand! He lives there, so I think it is cheating.:wink: If we simply stop shooting some doe, the numbers should come back fairly quick. We could have the best of both worlds if we do this right, big bucks and a good amount of doe, but who knows what will happen.


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## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

For those that say the farmer or landowner that posts his land shouldn't be allowed to claim crop damage and has to let people in to keep the numbers in check. Get a life and learn what it's like to try and make or supplement your income from the land. Letting people on your land leaves you open to lawsuit city. Over half the people we give permission to hunt the land are so stupid and ignorant that I'm surprised they have enough higher brain function to breath. We've had people STAND in our yard, 50 yards from the house and give my wife a disgusted look when she let our dogs out. Shoot a beautiful 140" class 8 point in extended muzzleloader season and be too lazy to walk up and see if you hit it, it then goes 75 yards in the SNOW and dies. Ray Charles could have followed that blood trail. We found it when during some late corn picking. Yeah, that makes me want to give some moron permission to hunt. That stunt with the muzzleloader BANNED ALL muzzleloading hunting from our property. Have treestands stolen from your own property and then find where someone had the guts to build a permanent stand in a white oak or a black cherry. Drive thru an alfalfa field so they didn't have to walk as far to the treestand. Leave the hide and head and legs from a deer on the property so that their upitty city dwelling neighbors didn't get all upset. We come from a long line of people that have worked the land and every year this land gets closer to having "NO TRESSPASSING" signs on every tree. Stop and ask permission and let me know you're from the big city and I guarantee you will be told NO! Respect for the landowner no longer exists. We never anymore have people stop by during the summer to help out with baling to say thanks for letting them hunt. They act like it's our duty to give them free reign of our land. Try it from the landowners end and you'll see a different picture.


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## redracer_6 (Feb 19, 2007)

*real reasons for decline in #'s*

i personaly beleive that if they would not have introduced coyotes,and mountain lions and such into pa then the deer herds would be drasticly higher.the big decline in habitat because of {people}and all of the smaller farmers going out of biseness has not helped. the greater number of bears in the state also hurts the deer population. auto insurance companies lobbying to have the deer hurds dropped.the game com. wanting to be in total control and charge huge amounts to hunt and making it a rich mans sport. all are reasons and real reasons the deer hurds have dwindled.but it is up to everyone who loves to hunt to protect our deer hurds but noone knows exactly what would be the best way.each individual piece of property is different.let the game com. run public land with elected officials and let land owners manage their own. just my .02$

also i do not own only 4 acres but i feed the deer inthe winter and have water for them in the summer . i rely on farmers to graciously let me hunt;and i do respect the landowner but also understand that a few are ruining it for those of us that are thankful!!!


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## goosehunter2118 (Jan 24, 2007)

redracer_6 said:


> i personaly beleive that if they would not have introduced coyotes,and mountain lions and such into pa then the deer herds would be drasticly higher.the big decline in habitat because of {people}and all of the smaller farmers going out of biseness has not helped. the greater number of bears in the state also hurts the deer population. auto insurance companies lobbying to have the deer hurds dropped.the game com. wanting to be in total control and charge huge amounts to hunt and making it a rich mans sport. all are reasons and real reasons the deer hurds have dwindled.but it is up to everyone who loves to hunt to protect our deer hurds but noone knows exactly what would be the best way.each individual piece of property is different.let the game com. run public land with elected officials and let land owners manage their own. just my .02$
> 
> also i do not own only 4 acres but i feed the deer inthe winter and have water for them in the summer . i rely on farmers to graciously let me hunt;and i do respect the landowner but also understand that a few are ruining it for those of us that are thankful!!!


I believe coyotes and mountain lions are NATIVE. I also believe that bears don't kill many deer at all. In the end the decline in the population is from hunters. It is up to you to decide in your area if you need to take some doe out of the herd. In my area of 3C, we need to let some doe walk for a few years. In my area of 5C and 5D, we need to kill every deer we can. Just my opinion.


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## redracer_6 (Feb 19, 2007)

a freind of my dads watched coyotes take 36 fawns in a 3 week period.yet the game commission and others tell me black bears harvest more.hard to beleive considering it was only one pair of yotes.yes hunters are the ones who will ultimately decide by letting doe walk by and also lowering the #of predaters. as far as yotes and mountain lions being native well that is a whole new debate.that could be argued for years!


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## goosehunter2118 (Jan 24, 2007)

redracer_6 said:


> a freind of my dads watched coyotes take 36 fawns in a 3 week period.yet the game commission and others tell me black bears harvest more.hard to beleive considering it was only one pair of yotes.yes hunters are the ones who will ultimately decide by letting doe walk by and also lowering the #of predaters. as far as yotes and mountain lions being native well that is a whole new debate.that could be argued for years!


You have a good point with those song dogs. We have a trapper that traps them in our area and he does pretty good from what I hear. I think we need to kill every coyote we can because they will get out of control if they go unchecked.


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## myrmidon (Aug 24, 2005)

*Geeeze ! Really !*

Charge another $5.00 a license and that should get ya all the coverage we need ! to get ya to the 4 tine limit ! and that's what ya need !


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## cjsholes (Dec 14, 2006)

*my thoughts*

I know that many areas of PA are struggling, but many areas are doing well also. I work 30 miles from where I live, and the people that hunt around where I work have seen very few or no deer the past 2 years, and many of them hunt every day. I hunt near where I live, and I have seen several deer, and many bucks. I actually saw a string of over 30 come through the woods single file this year, which is something I haven't seen for about 10 years. I invite people to come hunt these areas with me, and they would rather stay where they are seeing nothing, and kill the one deer that they might see. I think that people need to quit overhunting some of these areas and let the numbers begin to grow again.
As for the bears, I have a friend who took part in a fawn study 2 or 3 years ago. Bears were the #1 killer, followed by yotes, cars, and bobcats.
And the last thing I wanted to voice my opinion on is the success of the antler restriction. I am very happy with the quality bucks that I have been seeing (although I would be happier seeing them in the freezer and on the wall.) Last year, I got trail cam pics of 5 bucks, all at least 9 points and at least 17 inch spreads (we had an unusual # of 9 points last year for some reason...) All of these pics were taken the month before archery season on about 13 acres of land, primarily surrounded by houses and roads. Meanwhile, less than a mile away, you will find 30 cars on opening day, at the local game lands. Which goes back to my first point, that people need to change the way they are hunting. While I am sure the antler restriction has caused the increase in quality bucks, I also feel that the decrease in doe population has helped the dominant bucks tend to the majority of the does, rather than the scrappers spreading their seed. The decrease in population has also helped the deer attain better antler growth because they get more nutrient rich food, as it is not all eaten as it begins to grow.

I am not saying that things are going great here in PA, or that our bucks are at full potential, but I am saying that although there have been some serious drawbacks, there have been some serious benefits to the changes that have been made here. Now, where do we go from here?


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