# Hoyt Quatro limb



## hoytshooter15 (Aug 13, 2012)

So, I noticed today on Lancaster that the new Hoyt Quatro is already back ordered in the Extra Short length. Just curious but how often do you see a really good shooter using extra short limbs? Or short for that matter? And how short is extra short? In most cases don't only *kids* use shorts?? So call me insane but looks as though maybe enthusiastic kids just getting into target recurve are seeing the new quatro and thinking that they can only be good with that limb and either nagging or buying their way into a pair. If I'm terribly wrong with that theory, I apologize but it's just something I thought about. I know that with soccer, when I help my Aunt in her store, these over excited kids come in looking to buy cleats with their parents, however they refuse to leave the store without the most expensive pair that all the pros wear. They won't compromise for anything cheaper (although anything works just as well unless you are Leon Messi or Neymar da Silva  ) So I'm wondering if the same thing kids do with soccer cleats is happening with the new Hoyt limbs because all the extra shorts are already sold out. Plausible theory?


And please, no negative comments about this. The snarky comments on my threads are getting annoying.


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## Basilios (Nov 24, 2012)

From what it looks like is they got a small limited stock and are waiting for a larger order now.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

hoytshooter15 said:


> So, I noticed today on Lancaster that the new Hoyt Quatro is already back ordered in the Extra Short length. Just curious but how often do you see a really good shooter using extra short limbs? Or short for that matter? And how short is extra short? In most cases don't only *kids* use shorts?? So call me insane but looks as though maybe enthusiastic kids just getting into target recurve are seeing the new quatro and thinking that they can only be good with that limb and either nagging or buying their way into a pair. If I'm terribly wrong with that theory, I apologize but it's just something I thought about. I know that with soccer, when I help my Aunt in her store, these over excited kids come in looking to buy cleats with their parents, however they refuse to leave the store without the most expensive pair that all the pros wear. They won't compromise for anything cheaper (although anything works just as well unless you are Leon Messi or Neymar da Silva  ) So I'm wondering if the same thing kids do with soccer cleats is happening with the new Hoyt limbs because all the extra shorts are already sold out. Plausible theory?
> 
> 
> And please, no negative comments about this. The snarky comments on my threads are getting annoying.


It's your snap judgments and comments like these that get you all the snarky comments..

Recommended bow length for a person with a 25-26" DL might be a 64-66" bow. With a 25" riser, short's would give you a 66" bow. I know a lot of very good archers that fall into this category.. 
Even someone that is modest enough to claim that their 1226 FITA is nothing special.. She's shooting short limbs and judging by her sense of humor and comments, She's not a kid (in chronological terms anyway, Maybe at heart)

If the demand is not normally there, then the shops will not stock a lot.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Not just kids with Xshort limbs at 50 I enjoy them on a 25" riser for a 64" speedy bow. Perfect limb size for a 27" riser, oh wait, Hoyt no longer makes a 27" GMX,,,hmm, perhaps in their future, put the limb ahead of the riser.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Looks like someone here has never heard of Japan...


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

hoytshooter15 said:


> my threads are getting annoying.


fixed for you. :thumbs_up


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

There are many ways to skin a cat. 

23" riser / longs
25/ mediums
27" / shorts

All make a 68" bow. 

A fella with whom I shoot uses a 27/ short combo, and is a phenomenal shooter.
I currently shoot shorts /25", and have tried 25/ mediums, as well as 23/ mediums.

It's all where you want to shoot in the comfortable draw/ speed ratio.


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

hoytshooter15 said:


> And please, no negative comments about this. The snarky comments on my threads are getting annoying.


Wait... Didn't you get banned from AT...


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

you seem to be posting but because you want to post something not because you have a question or an actual topic to discus.

And use paragraphs please.


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## Basilios (Nov 24, 2012)

Also we all know the best soccer cleats are the copas. Can't change that.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Prefer knee length shorts myself, extra shorts fit nicely on the younger college girls however.


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

hoytshooter15 said:


> So, I noticed today on Lancaster that the new Hoyt Quatro is already back ordered in the Extra Short length. Just curious but how often do you see a really good shooter using extra short limbs? Or short for that matter? And how short is extra short? In most cases don't only *kids* use shorts?? So call me insane but looks as though maybe enthusiastic kids just getting into target recurve are seeing the new quatro and thinking that they can only be good with that limb and either nagging or buying their way into a pair. If I'm terribly wrong with that theory, I apologize but it's just something I thought about. I know that with soccer, when I help my Aunt in her store, these over excited kids come in looking to buy cleats with their parents, however they refuse to leave the store without the most expensive pair that all the pros wear. They won't compromise for anything cheaper (although anything works just as well unless you are Leon Messi or Neymar da Silva  ) So I'm wondering if the same thing kids do with soccer cleats is happening with the new Hoyt limbs because all the extra shorts are already sold out. Plausible theory?
> please, no negative comments about this. The snarky comments on my threads are getting annoying.


Oh. The irony.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

>--gt--> said:


> Looks like someone here has never heard of Japan...


If that's the main reason, it took a certain company a long time to realise too, albeit they seem to be first to do so.

Not being familiar with that part of the world, it seems the Koreans should likely be of similar build/size and they have been manufacturing their own limbs for a while.

If there was a big market, would they not have satisfied it themselves?


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

They have, by selling 23" risers.


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## ortabr (May 25, 2013)

> Also we all know the best soccer cleats are the copas. Can't change that.


Can confirm best cleats are the copa mundial.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

straat said:


> They have, by selling 23" risers.


I suppose that means the extra-short limbs are being targeted at youngsters?

Maybe just another option for those with shorter draws.

From the catalogue: 

At Hoyt we are always striving to ensure that shooters can get the best possible fit from our bows. 

That’s why we are introducing an extra-short limb option on all limb models for 2014. 

On a 25” riser, an extra-short limb yields a 64” bow length, suitable for shooters between 21 and 26 inches in draw length. 

With a 27” riser, the resulting 66” bow provides more speed and a very snappy shot reaction for shooters looking for maximum performance at up to 27 inches draw. 

Extra short limbs are a great option for shorter draw shooters.


Reminds me of Rasyad's thread where he put extra-short limbs on a 27" riser and got some great speed figures at his 27" draw with hunting weight arrows.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

The primary purpose for the ES limbs is not youngsters. Many accomplished shooters in Japan have draw lengths between 21-26". 

This certainly isn't the first time Hoyt has made extra-short limbs.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Will have to break out the chronograph and take some readings with my old Xshort Medalist limbs on the GM4td 25" riser. Already have done DFC on the limb/riser combination just never sent the info to Mr. Thoreau. Pulling the limbs to 29" showed no stacking beyond 27" with this setup. I did run some arrows through a chronograph back in the early nineties which I believe were 2014's at 44# in the range of 215-220fps, will have to confirm this! My simple DFC showing lack of stack on Xshort limbs.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

>--gt--> said:


> The primary purpose for the ES limbs is not youngsters. Many accomplished shooters in Japan have draw lengths between 21-26".
> 
> This certainly isn't the first time Hoyt has made extra-short limbs.


Okay, on that note, why do we not see a 27" ILF riser. Certainly there are more than a few gorillas out there that could benefit, as there are no x-long limbs in the Hoyt line-up?


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

>--gt--> said:


> The primary purpose for the ES limbs is not youngsters. Many accomplished shooters in Japan have draw lengths between 21-26".
> 
> This certainly isn't the first time Hoyt has made extra-short limbs.


How are these extra short limbs being used in Japan, Is it to create an extra short bow using a 23" riser or are they being fitted to 25" risers? and if so is there any real world advantage to using these to make a 64" bow with 25" riser over the more conventional route?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

toj said:


> How are these extra short limbs being used in Japan, Is it to create an extra short bow using a 23" riser or are they being fitted to 25" risers? and if so is there any real world advantage to using these to make a 64" bow with 25" riser over the more conventional route?




shorter limbs are faster. So if you can use a shorter - because of a short 25" DL - it will get you more speed at that draw length at a given poundage than a longer limb.


Mind blowing huh.......


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

I understand the theory, but from experience a 66" bow and a 68" bow at the same poundage gave me identical sight marks so no noticable speed difference but the 68" felt a lot better.

I know Gt does a lot of work in Japan and specifically mentioned they are using these, so I'm hoping there will be more to it that just a theoretical speed advantage.
This kind of information could be very useful to coaches, especially those coaching smaller archers.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

hwjchan said:


> Oh. The irony.


Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

toj said:


> I understand the theory, but from experience a 66" bow and a 68" bow at the same poundage gave me identical sight marks so no noticable speed difference but the 68" felt a lot better.
> 
> I know Gt does a lot of work in Japan and specifically mentioned they are using these, so I'm hoping there will be more to it that just a theoretical speed advantage.
> This kind of information could be very useful to coaches, especially those coaching smaller archers.


He already mentioned that it was due to shorter draw lengths. The reasoning behind matching draw length to a bow height is that you want to get the maximum power stroke out of the limbs with minimum stacking. You also need to take into account the string angle (a short bow might pinch the finger more at full draw) and face geometry (getting the string to touch the nose and the chin).


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

MickeyBisco said:


> There are many ways to skin a cat.
> 
> 23" riser / longs
> 25/ mediums
> ...


What's your DL? I draw 28" AMO and considering dopping down to 66" bow (from 68"). The sting angle would fit my face better. Not sure if I could get away with using short limbs on the 25" riser (would they stack?) or if I would be better off going to a 23" riser and keeping the mediums.


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## hoytshooter15 (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm probably gonna stop using this forum. Can't get a shred of respect here


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

hoytshooter15 said:


> I'm probably gonna stop using this forum. Can't get a shred of respect here


You need a new signature HS15, try '_Illegitimi non carborundum'.
_
You'll probably need to look that up. 

I saw no need for any negative comments in your OP but I wasn't looking for any.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Jeb-D. said:


> What's your DL? I draw 28" AMO and considering dopping down to 66" bow (from 68"). The sting angle would fit my face better. Not sure if I could get away with using short limbs on the 25" riser (would they stack?) or if I would be better off going to a 23" riser and keeping the mediums.


We should talk! I've been shooting 25/shorts for about 9 months with a 27" draw. Recently expanded to 28", and really considering mediums. String pinch isn't an issue. 14 strand, and 2 more under center serving to help. I'm beginning to stack a bit. I'm going to miss the speed of shorts, but I'll be moving to mediums over the next months. I'll save one rig in case I can't transition comfortably before state indoor.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

hoytshooter15 said:


> I'm probably gonna stop using this forum. Can't get a shred of respect here


Mr Bishop. 

The problem isnt that you are a kid but that you are a kid trying to fit in with adults - 20 somethings to middle aged men. 

I know what thats like. When I started playing online games back in the early 2000s I was the 15-16 years old playing with 20 somethings and middle aged men and I would say things from time to time that were ill thought out, naive, and frankly stupid. 

The way you should have phrased your OP; " So i noticed that the x-short Quatro limbs are already on backorder at LAS - why do you all think they are so popular? whats the purpose of x-short limbs - do any elite archers currently use such a set up?

Literally, that was all you needed to say. The rest was Fluff and completely derailed your own thread by presenting a bias that was ill thought out.

Also - you could have just as easily posted this in the other thread about the new Hoyt products that you already had going.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

w8lon said:


> Not just kids with Xshort limbs at 50 I enjoy them on a 25" riser for a 64" speedy bow. Perfect limb size for a 27" riser, oh wait, Hoyt no longer makes a 27" GMX,,,hmm, perhaps in their future, put the limb ahead of the riser.


Staten Holmes and Ashley Kamuf-two former world team members who used 21" PSE risers to obtain 62" bows for more cast at the long outdoor distances. Having seen those bows I would note that I find the shorter limbs might have some advantage because the sight windows on Staten's Bow made it difficult to get all four FITA distance sight pin placements in the window


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

hoytshooter15 said:


> I'm probably gonna stop using this forum. Can't get a shred of respect here


awesome!

if nothing else, it may be a life lesson respect is commanded by your actions. you'll probably need to come back to that one in a few years to appreciate it, but perhaps one day.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Dacer said:


> Mr Bishop.
> 
> The problem isnt that you are a kid but that you are a kid trying to fit in with adults - 20 somethings to middle aged men.
> 
> ...


Then you should understand the situation better.

Give the lad some slack and answer the question.

It's easy enough gloss over the extraneous and read the kernel.

There's an element of bulling here I don't like. It wasn't called for and it's derailing the thread.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Never give up! Never surrender!


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

MickeyBisco said:


> We should talk! I've been shooting 25/shorts for about 9 months with a 27" draw. Recently expanded to 28", and really considering mediums. String pinch isn't an issue. 14 strand, and 2 more under center serving to help. I'm beginning to stack a bit. I'm going to miss the speed of shorts, but I'll be moving to mediums over the next months. I'll save one rig in case I can't transition comfortably before state indoor.


Thanks for the input. I wonder if mediums on a 23" riser would also start to stack at 28"?


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Jeb-D. said:


> Thanks for the input. I wonder if mediums on a 23" riser would also start to stack at 28"?


It's hard to say. When I began, that's the rig I was using, and scoring fairly well. While at a 27" DL it was a softer, smoother draw, I switched to a 25/ shorts on the advice of my coach at the time. The increased speed was gratifying! I never noticed stacking, and I doubt I would were I to return to a 23" now at a 28" DL. It's entirely speculation but I think the power curve of mediums would be a bit gentler with a bit of overdraw than the snappy shorts. I'm actually fighting the idea of a 68" bow in my head a bit.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

hoytshooter15 said:


> And please, no negative comments about this. The snarky comments on my threads are getting annoying.


You ask for it, or at the very least, make it really easy to dish it to you on a golden platter. If this weren't fact, you wouldn't be getting as many enthusiastic comments as you usually do.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

kshet26 said:


> He already mentioned that it was due to shorter draw lengths. The reasoning behind matching draw length to a bow height is that you want to get the maximum power stroke out of the limbs with minimum stacking. You also need to take into account the string angle (a short bow might pinch the finger more at full draw) and face geometry (getting the string to touch the nose and the chin).


Thanks for that, but it doesn't answer my question.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

toj said:


> Thanks for that, but it doesn't answer my question.


Beyond theoretical speed advantage, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to make a 64 inch bow with a 23 inch riser. As illustrated in another current thread, most manufacturers are simply not offering 23 inch risers... At least not in the selection and volume of years past. ES limbs bridge that gap nicely.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

toj said:


> Thanks for that, but it doesn't answer my question.


Found on the Easton Discover Archery site

Examples of Average Youth Recurve Bow Measurements 
age: 6 to 12 size: 54″ to 64″
age: teen to adult size: 64″ to 70″

Recurve Bow Length to Draw Length Chart 
up to 25″ - 54″ to 62″
up to 27″ - 64″ to 66″
up to 29″ - 66″ to 68″
up to 31″ - 68″ to 70″
31″ and over - 70″ to 72″

I shoot a 70" bow. To get a 70" bow and to get most efficient energy out the limbs, I use a 27" riser and medium limbs. If I had a shorter draw I could choose a 27" riser with short limbs (I believe GT mentioned that he was shooting a 27" riser with short limbs).

The current thinking is longer riser, shorter limbs which makes a lack of 23" risers make sense.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

Does that mean were going to be seeing far more 27" risers in the hands of the avearge draw shooter?

I can see how a 27" riser with shorts will feel and shoot different from a 25" riser with mediums but both make a 68" bow.
What I'm wondering is are short draw shooters (specifically the ones GT has first hand experience of) using the extra short limbs to make 62" bows (using a 23" riser) or are they swapping the 23" riser for the extra shorts to keep a 64" bow.

I'm assuming some of these would be better suited by the charts to a 62" but if they're opting for a 64" bow with extra shorts I'd like to know what if any performance gain is to be had?, ie are they gaining speed by using shorter limbs but keeping some stability and string angle by still having the longer bow.
Is there any evidence to support this or are they going of what is theoretical

A lot of the stuff I was told when I started shooting I found to make little to no difference to me so when things like this crop up I like to hear first hand accounts of whats gone on, there is always a chance they've just become fasionable.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

A question for TOJ,

You mention that it did not affect your sight settings to switch from one design to another.

What were the parameters for your "test"? While theoretical speeds, etc are great on paper, It's a fair question from you to try to understand this. For us to understand what your parameters were, it would be good to hear what your tests consisted of.

at 18 M for instance, we would probably see very little difference. There's not enough time to for an arrow to be affected by much. At longer distances however .5fps may be a big difference.

another part is for those that may have "long" facial structures, the need for a longer sight window may facilitate the need for a 25" over a 23" riser but with a short draw. 

if you were not drawing a long limb back to where it's in it's "optimum power stroke", using a longer riser and shorter limbs may do just that. This will be based on a persons DL. Your experience may vary because either configuration you are using may both not quite get into that slightly higher power area of the limbs thus you may not see the difference in the configurations.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Some of what you are asking is probably a "fashionable" statement as well. Most of us will never get to the ranks were we can really quantify the differences. I have a 29.5" AMO DL and my ILF rig is a 70" (25"/longs).
My teaching and play rig is a 66" Rolan. If I build up the ILF rig to have the same lbs on the fingers, it will be faster because of it's faster more efficient limbs and stiffer riser. I gain about 4fps on the chrono. At 60M I barely make the target with the "shorter" bow slower bow. The longer ILF bow reaches 70 no problem.

If I switch the ILF limbs for Mediums set for the same poundage OTF I gained about 1-2FPS and about 5 more meters of cast.. and it feels totally different. I have a harder time expanding through the clicker as the mediums start to stack just as I get to full draw.

All this around the 24lb OTF and cheap limbs. 

If I did the same test all at 18M-30M while I know my 18M sight mark doesn't change by much. Maybe one or 2 clicks, I didn't test at 30M. Ran out of time and was not particularly interested in exact numbers.

Take it to high quality limbs with less "stack" or smoother draws and your experience will change.

poundage will make a big difference as well.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

dchan;1068599571
Take it to high quality limbs with less "stack" or smoother draws and your experience will change.
[/QUOTE said:


> I think if someone were changing a 25" riser/short set-up for a 27" riser/extra-short set-up (or comparable mixture) they'd want to look to their limb choice.
> 
> The limbs would want to be of a quality they would not be entering into the area of stacking at their draw-length. This may remove some cheaper limbs from the mix.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Greysides said:


> I think if someone were changing a 25" riser/short set-up for a 27" riser/extra-short set-up (or comparable mixture) they'd want to look to their limb choice.
> 
> The limbs would want to be of a quality they would not be entering into the area of stacking at their draw-length. This may remove some cheaper limbs from the mix.


Very true.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

hoytshooter15 said:


> I'm probably gonna stop using this forum. Can't get a shred of respect here


Use the ignore feature of this forum. Life is


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

hoytshooter15 said:


> I'm probably gonna stop using this forum. Can't get a shred of respect here


you don't "get" respect -you earn it by giving out the same treatment you expect to get back. standard life lesson.


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