# Punishing The Better Shooter!!!!



## 1DevineShooter (Apr 13, 2008)

Amen! We have this same discussion at our local range all the time!


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

I have thought about this before as well. In 3-d I think you should always break ties with a shoot-off if at all possible. If a shoot-off is not possible then give it to the shooter with the least misses, then the least 5's, then the least 8's in that order.

In your senerio shooter "C" would win.

But, that's not how "we have always done it" as I've been told:sad:


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

I agree 100%.... 
They've already got awarded by catching up to the other shooter, why give them the win too???:sad:

I guess I'm just too old school, when there wasn't any 12's....


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## luvcamogirl (Apr 8, 2008)

I agree, the one that shoots consistant should be classified the best shooter and winner. On the other hand, think for a moment, some people make a bad shot and know for a fact that they must shoot more twelves or fourteens to get back on top and do so, does that classify them as a better shot? Can really go both ways. Just my opinion.


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## IBBW (Mar 29, 2005)

*Hmmm*

They shoot off most of the places I've been to. I did a coin toss one time. I remember losing a tie once after a score card check, I had a 5, the other shooter did not and I lost because of it. I cannot remember anyone winning a tie for having the most 12's. You could look at it two ways, either is a good arguement. The most perfect shots or the most consistent. I'll take the third option, shoot off. :darkbeer:


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## Paul S. (Sep 14, 2003)

We don't use 12's around here. We shoot 10's and 10x, and if its a tie, the most X's win.


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## BeachBow (Jan 6, 2008)

The score card says "how many" not just "how". That's why they start with the highest single target score first. Personally I prefer a shoot-off. If you're club doesn't do it that way, then it's you're club, get the rules changed! Otherwise, shoot more 12s and win it. 

Cry yourself a river, build a bridge, and get over it! LMAO!!
:wink:
:tongue:
:zip:


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Me and my buds have had the same conversation several times. We don't think the current system is wrong, persay, but it is a very interesting point. I can understand rewarding the highest 12 count, but obviasly in a tie score the lower 12 count was more consistant. I guess they are offering a reward for taking more chances.


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

Worse than that, IMHO are the "jerkamatic" 14's To me, it's like being awarded extra P&Y points for a high gutshot. :darkbeer:


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## Paul S. (Sep 14, 2003)

FOBsKILL said:


> Worse than that, IMHO are the "jerkamatic" 14's To me, it's like being awarded extra P&Y points for a high gutshot. :darkbeer:



Its TARGET archery...not hunting. Also, the person with the most 12's should win, because they hit the 12. The 12 is a lot smaller target than the 10.:wink:


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

Paul S. said:


> Its TARGET archery...not hunting. Also, the person with the most 12's should win, because they hit the 12. The 12 is a lot smaller target than the 10.:wink:



I understand it's target archery... my point is why award 2,4,6 or 9 bonus points for an obvious foot high right or left miss. In the case of 12's, most 3D shooters will freely admit they shoot for a center 10 and hope to fall into the 12. They only missed their intended 10 by mere inches, and are awarded only 2 more points.

There are those brave enough and flat out good enough to intentionaly shoot at and hit 14's, got no issue with those. 

IMO, 14's should be reserved for shootdowns or have to be "called" anywhere else.


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## Varbogen (Apr 6, 2007)

*This ones usually a fight !*

Well this one is usually the sour grape of shooting competitively .

The More consistant shooter , the one with the most X's is the common sense winner , However in fairness ( and since I do not know the whole story)
A Shoot off should be in order . I would file a grievance and make sure you are heard to guarentee it does not happen again .


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## boaritupya (Jul 28, 2004)

*Just a thought!!*

"A" 5x12, 13x10, 2x5
"C" on the other hand has 20x10's but no 12's
This could mean "C" has jar licked his or her way through
the range but "A" has been able to 12 at least 5 out of 18 
So,"A" has "maybe" shot better!!
Like I said, just a thought 
Over here in OZ we have shoot offs


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## wlw723 (Feb 10, 2008)

#1 show me a guy with 20 10's with no x's ,and 2nd if you aint got the yarbles to shoot for the 14 so be it , the 14 was designed so people would not go for the safe zone of the ten .. it gives the shooters something to go for .....most local joe shmo shoots dont score the 14 if you would like to shoot where it is not scored ... quit whinin and step up your game .....these boo hoo posts are worthless..........wouldnt the better shooter be the one who can hit the bullseye the most on average??? you cant win any 3d tourny with 30 8's :darkbeer:why is he better than me??? , cause he put more time and effort in than you.....sorry just had to vent this post is not aimed at anyone in particular , just my general picture of things...


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## Rimfire Kid (Jun 3, 2006)

*shoot off*

Agree with the others...sounds like a shoot off's in order! Forget about that most most 12's.


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## mrfingers (Feb 15, 2008)

I think the 12 system for tie breakers works fine if you have a large enough circuit of shooters. If you have a lot of shooters that perform about same then some of these shooters will go after the 12 ring to try and pull away. So you take a shooter thats shooting 40 or 50 yards going after 12's and happens to fall short on a couple long shots and gets 5's (ASA) but at the end of the day has the same score but more 12's than anyone else then he/she should be the winner. I'd say this same person would win if It came down to a shoot off do to him/her being a more precise shooter. I've been beat by the twelve system and I'll say I got beat by a better shooter on that day. I say this cause I can look back on the tournament and think, "damn I missed that one 10 ring!" At the same time the guy that beat me is thinking how he just barely missed a smaller 12 ring by a hair at 40 yards! 

Now if it's a small group people that can't really shoot; like 230 on 25 targets at 40 yards then a shoot off might be best.

Just my $.02


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

*Around here*

We shoot center 11s (IBO Scoring) and if there is a tie it is broken by the most 11s. If there is still a tie then you have a shoot off. I personally like this scoring system, even though you can have more 8s than someone else and still beat them. It rewards those who make more shots in the center of the kill which is what everyone is shooting at. I guess you can look at it either way.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

We don't use X counts at all. We score 10, 8, 5, 0. Because it hard to have shoot offs (shooters not always there at same time) we went with the most 10s. If tied, we then go with first point dropped. Another club goes with longest string of 10s. -- this is on regular club shoots --


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## YankeeRebel (Dec 30, 2005)

At some of the clubs I shoot at if there is a Tie it is decided by who dropped the first point and the other shooter is awarded winner. Like say both shooters were even till target #5 and shooter #2 shot an 8. Shooter #1 would get the win in case of a Tie. Not a bad idea but I like the Shoot Off idea. It would be neat to see em' shoot off in front of everyone too. The old adrenalin would be pumping then.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

I can see your way of thinking and have thought about this in the past BUT the object to the game IMO is to hit the highest scoring ring possible and who ever has the highest number 12's,10's,8's,5's for tie breakers cuz its the person with the best number of shots should win.so it looks like shooter a had the best # of shots in the tournament so he should be the winner.I kinda look at the better # of shots rather than the BAD # of shots


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## hutchies (Jun 8, 2005)

1DevineShooter said:


> Amen! We have this same discussion at our local range all the time!





Same here.........I didn't shoot extremely well at Paris but I tied for 33rd....ended up 35th. We all shot 388 on the weeked. The two guys in front of me had 8 and 7 X's...................I had 6. Said to me that they hit more 8's.............If we had finished 1,2, and 3rd it would have bothered me more but them are the rules so I play by them:wink:


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## red1691 (Jun 8, 2007)

*Punished!!!*

Thank's For your Replys, 
Yes, I agree a Shoot off would be in order, BUT as we all know, on a 2 day shoot, some will shoot all Sat. (so they can go to another shoot on Sun.!!) and someone shows up Sun. to shoot it all !!! 
I know this is the Rules at most clubs, I have no problem with it. But As an Officer of our Club , and involved in the State Org. I listen to the members and shooters out there!!! I want everyone to have a good time :wink:when they go to a shoot no matter were it is!!! 
Too we all know, for a shooter who shoots all 10's will get some 12's any way and win out right!!!!
Thanks Ricky


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## red1691 (Jun 8, 2007)

*12 ring*

Let's take this a step fether, If you think the 12 ring should be the tie breaker, why not have it in the middle of the 10? Not in the bottom corner of the 10, were it is a gamble shot, if you are off a cople of yards! The 12 ring was Originally added as a way for shooter to try and make up for the 8's they may shoot, and 14 ring were added for the pro shootdown round to spice it up for shooters and spectators.
Of corse that was when everyone shot real yardages:wink:, not this 40 & 30 yard max classesukey:, were the avarge shot is shorter than that!!


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## rhustek (Jul 14, 2008)

red1691 said:


> Let's take this a step fether, If you think the 12 ring should be the tie breaker, why not have it in the middle of the 10? Not in the bottom corner of the 10, were it is a gamble shot, if you are off a cople of yards! The 12 ring was Originally added as a way for shooter to try and make up for the 8's they may shoot, and 14 ring were added for the pro shootdown round to spice it up for shooters and spectators.
> Of corse that was when everyone shot real yardages:wink:, not this 40 & 30 yard max classesukey:, were the avarge shot is shorter than that!!


There are really only two different scoring criteria that make sense to me. IBO which is 11-10-8-5-0 and ASA at 14-12-10-8-5-0. 

The tie breaker using the most 11's or 14's ABSOLUTELY makes sense. Lets say someone does make a mistake hitting an 8 or a 5. That means in order to win they have to be MORE accurate and hit MORE 11's or 14's to catch up.

The offset ring inside the 10 that scores a 12 is used for ASA scoring as well as that risk/reward 14 ring. Those inserts are geared for clubs that lean towards ASA events.

IBO geared inserts place the 11 or 10x ring directly in the center of the 10 scoring area and is 25% of the total 10 area.

To me the problem seems to be that you are using a mix of inserts at your club, some are in the middle and others are offset, decide which scoring your club would prefer and make sure you are getting the insert you desire.

To explain my view in another fashion using IBO scoring and your examples that started this thread:

total score 20 targets x 12 max possible per target = 240 points, your guys were at 200:

(A) hit 5(12's hit) / 20(12's possible) = 25% accurate aiming at 12's
(B) hit 3 / 20 = 15% accurate
(C) hit 0 / 20 = 0 % accurate for 12's

This actually shows that the guy with 0, 12's, didnt hit a single thing he was aiming at all afternoon!


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## builditall (Mar 24, 2006)

This has happened to me twice already this year. Dropped a spot b/c of someone shooting more 12's in a tie situation. My goal it to eliminate the 8's and 5's from my game. Generally I try to stay safe on shots when the yardage is iffy to me. If I can do this I can't grumble too much. 

All in all I'm OK with the 12 tie breaker - it has to be done some way.(Kinda like an X):wink:


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

rhustek said:


> There are really only two different scoring criteria that make sense to me. IBO which is 11-10-8-5-0 and ASA at 14-12-10-8-5-0.
> 
> The tie breaker using the most 11's or 14's ABSOLUTELY makes sense. Lets say someone does make a mistake hitting an 8 or a 5. That means in order to win they have to be MORE accurate and hit MORE 11's or 14's to catch up.
> 
> ...



The new inserts only come with one scoring setup from mckenzie the offset 12s..the center 11 and 14ring are to be on all targets. 
just an fyi for all that did not know this


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## SANDBAGGER (May 10, 2005)

I can see your point both ways, but IMO I think the more consistant shooter should be awarded the win. If it came down to a shootoff he'd 99% of the time would win anyway right???? Change the scoring to 15, 10, 8, 5, 0 and do the math, you would eliminate ties in most cases......JMO


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## rhustek (Jul 14, 2008)

bhtr3d said:


> The new inserts only come with one scoring setup from mckenzie the offset 12s..the center 11 and 14ring are to be on all targets.
> just an fyi for all that did not know this


Thank you for the info on the targets I wasn't aware. Makes sense to have both scoring setup's!


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## pooter (Jul 8, 2008)

Paul S. said:


> Its TARGET archery...not hunting. Also, the person with the most 12's should win, because they hit the 12. The 12 is a lot smaller target than the 10.:wink:


Amen brother Paul...it`s just common sense that the 12 ring is the hardest to hit than just playing it safe and aiming at the center 10 every time and hoping that the person going for the gusto makes mistakes.


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## red1691 (Jun 8, 2007)

pooter said:


> Amen brother Paul...it`s just common sense that the 12 ring is the hardest to hit than just playing it safe and aiming at the center 10 every time and hoping that the person going for the gusto makes mistakes.


Hi Pooter, 
glad to see a Georgia shooter reply, thanks! Hope to see you at the GBAA State 3-D Aug. 2 & 3, at Fort Gordon, Agusta, GA. A few of us are driving up from outside Savannah,and will shoot all on Sunday. Only 40 targets, nothing to it!!!


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## pooter (Jul 8, 2008)

*Ga. Boy*



red1691 said:


> Hi Pooter,
> glad to see a Georgia shooter reply, thanks! Hope to see you at the GBAA State 3-D Aug. 2 & 3, at Fort Gordon, Agusta, GA. A few of us are driving up from outside Savannah,and will shoot all on Sunday. Only 40 targets, nothing to it!!!


 Hey Red

Yeah i`m actually the gbaa tournament director and my wifes the Secretary,Right now were trying to find someone to take our positions so we can just shot and stay out of the drama part, HELP! its will be a good shoot to attend,

make sure you bring tim Boykin with you. Steve


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## whitetail101 (Aug 10, 2007)

I have noticed around here that most of the bellyhooing about how ties are broken is being done by those that are not at the level of shooting that those with the ties are. I see more ties occuring in the top 5 places, than any other spot in the standings. Those that shoot the National circuits know that is how the ballgame is played and deal with it.

On a course where they are counting 11's then the most 11's wins, if you are counting 12's then the most 12's wins. If there is still a tie at that point then a shoot off occurs.

At my club for the outdoor shoots we count only 10's(will be transitioning to a traditional IBO scoring format next year) and break ties by who dropped the first score, for my indoor shoots we use the ASA scoring format and break ties with the most 12's.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

You have to have a way to break ties. At the large shoots such as the ASA ProAms the ladies who do the book work process over a 1000 shooters scores in a short time(ya I know there are some of you jerks out there who think your class's scores should be posted 5 minutes after you finish). They don't have time to go through each card for the first miss, etc. Most of the time especially at local shoots people leave before all the scores are posted. How can you have shootoffs without folks there? I agree shootoffs are great especially when you can get someone who is a pencil pusher involved. It is fun to watch someone who turns in fake scores have to "prove" themselves.


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## pooter (Jul 8, 2008)

*Atm*



Bubba Dean said:


> You have to have a way to break ties. At the large shoots such as the ASA ProAms the ladies who do the book work process over a 1000 shooters scores in a short time(ya I know there are some of you jerks out there who think your class's scores should be posted 5 minutes after you finish). They don't have time to go through each card for the first miss, etc. Most of the time especially at local shoots people leave before all the scores are posted. How can you have shootoffs without folks there? I agree shootoffs are great especially when you can get someone who is a pencil pusher involved. It is fun to watch someone who turns in fake scores have to "prove" themselves.


 One day there will be score cards that you can scan through a machine then veiw it on a screen 2 seconds later,...but then what will all the hiney whiners whine about? LMAO


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## pooter (Jul 8, 2008)

*smartest man in the world*



pooter said:


> One day there will be score cards that you can scan through a machine then veiw it on a screen 2 seconds later,...but then what will all the hiney whiners whine about? LMAO


 we can just punch out the 14,12,10,8,5 and zero!wow


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

IMO

There should always be a smaller ring (X ring)of zero point value inside of the highest point ring. That way any ties are of same consistency, and x ring tiebreakers show better consistency. When you start counting x rings at a higher value, you have to break ties with the better consistency of lower x count, or else a shootoff.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

*Shooter A wins hands down!*

Smaller target, Bigger Reward! Shooter A beats you hands down. He got behind shooting at the 12, but came back and beat you shooting at the 12. No question, he's a better shooter than B or C.​Shooter B tried hard, just fell a little short, but definitely better than C.​Shooter C wants to play the safe game and shoot at a 5 inch circle all day instead of a 12 the size of a 50 cent piece (or smaller). I say, Shooter C should grow a set or quit complaining. Just an opinion.​


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

3-D Quest said:


> Smaller target, Bigger Reward! Shooter A beats you hands down. He got behind shooting at the 12, but came back and beat you shooting at the 12. No question, he's a better shooter than B or C.​Shooter B tried hard, just fell a little short, but definitely better than C.​Shooter C wants to play the safe game and shoot at a 5 inch circle all day instead of a 12 the size of a 50 cent piece (or smaller). I say, Shooter C should grow a set or quit complaining. Just an opinion.​


I agree with this whole statement with the exception of the highlighted segment. It's 3d competition for those shooting for 12's and 14's. These guys are not just getting in some practice before hunting season, they are there to win. For the guy/gal that shoots for 10's all day and gets them, congrats to him/her :thumb: 
I think the first line of my signature applies here. :wink:


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

*True...*



RxBowhunter said:


> I agree with this whole statement with the exception of the highlighted segment. It's 3d competition for those shooting for 12's and 14's. These guys are not just getting in some practice before hunting season, they are there to win. For the guy/gal that shoots for 10's all day and gets them, congrats to him/her :thumb:
> I think the first line of my signature applies here. :wink:


My apoliges Shooter C and Good Shooting.​


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

*True...*



RxBowhunter said:


> I agree with this whole statement with the exception of the highlighted segment. It's 3d competition for those shooting for 12's and 14's. These guys are not just getting in some practice before hunting season, they are there to win. For the guy/gal that shoots for 10's all day and gets them, congrats to him/her :thumb:
> I think the first line of my signature applies here. :wink:


My apoligies Shooter C and Good Shooting.​


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## pooter (Jul 8, 2008)

3-D Quest said:


> My apoligies Shooter C and Good Shooting.​


 I feel like shooter D sometimes.LMAO


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## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

the best shooter, imho, in case of a tie is not the guy with the most 12's; but the guy with the fewest bad shots.....x's(misses),5's and 8's. there are far toooo many lucky 12's and 14's for this to be the decider. the x INSIDE CENTER TEN is also fair, just like spotties. the guy shooting for center 10 is going to luck into a few 12's by MISSING what he's aiming at. the guy that pin wheels the center 12 has got his yardage perfect and has made a perfect shot. it just takes the guesswork out. as i say just my little .02.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

Marksmanship events have used most X's to decide a tie for about as long as I ever heard of them. In this case, 12's are the X. 
Those are the rules, and you should stop whinning about it. If it was the other way around, so would the arguments be by the losers.

Don't you guys have more important things to concern yourself with beside complaining about losing. Shoot better, practice more, anddecide the rules in advance as being most 12's, most consecutive twelves, or whatever.
But you know what the standard is. if you want special rules, agree in advance.
Shootoffs aren't always possible, especially with lots of shooters over several days to a week.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

most bullseyes makes sence to me to be the tie winner


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## hawkmoon (Dec 18, 2006)

If shooter C was aiming at the 12 ring and missed every time why should he (or she) be rewarded for a 100 percent miss rate?


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## bjbarker (Dec 31, 2006)

*tiebreaker*

Some clubs go in the order of first person to drop points <10 would be in third, then whoever was next to drop would be second.


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## brianerwin (Dec 3, 2008)

*Shoot-off*

From what I gather in this thread I agree that the winner should be the consistant shooter. So if there is consistancy then why not try this?

Let's say for conversation that shooters A,B & C all get 200 pts at the end of the run.

Let's have a shoot-off.

Let's make it interesting though. Lets use a Vegas 3 shot target set up at let's say 40 yrds. - 3 Shots!

The winner who is most consistant will hit the center ring or at least stay in the yellow and should win. 

This would seem like a fair test of ability - Don't you think?

This is just my opinion that would be on a level playing field.


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## N2RCHRY (Feb 12, 2005)

brianerwin said:


> From what I gather in this thread I agree that the winner should be the consistant shooter. So if there is consistancy then why not try this?
> 
> Let's say for conversation that shooters A,B & C all get 200 pts at the end of the run.
> 
> ...


No, the winner is the shooter with the highest score and when there is a tie, the shooter who shoots the most 12's wins. As they should. He/She shot more higher scoring shots. Who's gonna be remembered? The shooter who shot even with 2 twelves or the shooter who shot even with 6 twelves? Who's "going for it" more? Safe gets you an "also ran" award. NO GUTS. NO GLORY!

As far as the spot target shoot off. Apples and oranges. The game is 3D. I would venture to say most of the people participating don't want spots brought into the equation. Different game all together.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Lucky 12's...........wait a minute the 12 is inside the 10......so you are saying that it is lucky to hit it. I suppose if the 12 was not marked and your arrow hit there you would not want a 10. Hey put me down for an 8 cuz I was shooting for the middle and didn't hit it. The IBO has always been a game where 400 was perfect....the first year they scored the X a 12 their minds got messed up with how high the scores were. I believe Hopkins shot something like 440 at Nelsonville(you know Nelsonville IBO's Death Valley where no one scores high). The next year they dropped the 12 and just made it an X for tie breaker. Eventually ended up with giving you 11 for it.

Like I said on an earlier post....shootoffs are cool, but how many people stick around till the end of a shoot to see where they stand. At local shoots most folk leave as soon as they are done. When shooting an ASA Proam how many of you stick around for the awards???? A lot of folks don't even stay for the Pro shootdown.

Another point to interject in this who the best shooter is. If shooter A is shooting at the 12 and is a 1/2" out he scores an 8. If shooter C is shooting for the center 10 and is a 1/2" low he is still in the 10. If not for those 1/2" "mistakes" in yardage shooter A blows C out of the water.


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## brianerwin (Dec 3, 2008)

N2RCHRY said:


> No, the winner is the shooter with the highest score and when there is a tie, the shooter who shoots the most 12's wins. As they should. He/She shot more higher scoring shots. Who's gonna be remembered? The shooter who shot even with 2 twelves or the shooter who shot even with 6 twelves? Who's "going for it" more? Safe gets you an "also ran" award. NO GUTS. NO GLORY!
> 
> As far as the spot target shoot off. Apples and oranges. The game is 3D. I would venture to say most of the people participating don't want spots brought into the equation. Different game all together.


Fair enough - I am not that experienced in 3D shoots and was not aware of 
way things go. I guess you never learn anything if you don't ask stupid questions.


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## whiteflag (Apr 7, 2008)

brianerwin said:


> I guess you never learn anything if you don't ask stupid questions.


As they say no such thing as a stupid question, but I have seen some pretty stupid answers!


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## Kill Shill (Sep 23, 2008)

shooting 3D with ASA scoring is like playin poker with 10 wild cards.


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## steelhead.8 (Feb 23, 2009)

i shoot at a local club that has scoreing 10x,10,8,5,0 .at the shoot i scored a 296 with 22 x's [out of a 300 score] i was beet by a 298 with 4 x,s . thats just the way the cookie crumbles.


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## AAarcher (Aug 29, 2005)

I think 12 count works, but there is nothing more fun than being in or watching a shootoff! when you have everyone standing around and your shakin like a dog.... Its just more fun and rewarding to be able to work through the nerves and beat the other guy!


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## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

yo steelhead,

he did beat you by 2 points. to shoot that many 5's and so few x's is rare, but doable. you seemed to be more accurate, but again you made more BAD shots.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

The # of Center tens should be the tie breaker (MO). Many twelves scored are the result of a ten attempt that missed. My stradegy is always center ten, the 12's show up enough to win quite a few events for me. 
Shoot for twelves all the time?, Mr 8 is nearby.


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## steelhead.8 (Feb 23, 2009)

i shoot at a local club that scores 10x,10,8,5 i shot a 296 out of 300 with 22 x's and i was beet by a guy that shot a 298 with 4 x's bummer for me. but oh well thats the way it goes


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## steelhead.8 (Feb 23, 2009)

im knot shure how i dobble posted sorry. yes i did shoot good but im use to our club scoring 11's for x's .so maybe my nose got broke a little. its ok i need it once in a wile


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

N2RCHRY said:


> First let me say I think shooter A should win. Why punish the shooter that hit the higher scoring ring, whether it was "accidental" or not? He made more GREAT shots and should be rewarded for it.
> 
> Second, I think on the local level or whatever, SHOOT OFF BABY!
> 
> Finally, why is it "whining" or "crying" when a guy asks a simple question and gives a opinion just for the sake of argument? Some of you are a A-holes...


So who makes more great shots.....

A guy that shoots 20 10's for 200, i.e. nothing less than a 10 and a bonafide kill shot.

Or a guy that shot *10 *8's for 200...that's a total of 10 wounding shots. 

It doesn't make sense and why ASA scoring is messed up.


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## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

*Last Out*

This is easy to overcome just make your 1st tie breaker last out of the ten wins or in another words first out loose's second out loose's shooter C wins and if there was still a tie after that, then count X's


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

archerm3 said:


> So who makes more great shots.....
> 
> A guy that shoots 20 10's for 200, i.e. nothing less than a 10 and a bonafide kill shot.
> 
> ...


You are speaking as a hunter, not a tournament 3D shooter. 
On the McKenzie targets the 8 ring is Kill area, the 5 is wound.
Now Rinehart targets have an 8 ring that is as big as a cloud.(hate those)
The rings on 3D targets are for scoring not noted killing area for tournament shooters.
If you're hunting real live animals, I've had 8 to be better killing shots than center 10s plenty of times. 3D targets are for scoring not killing. Always shoot for center ten, your averages will climb.


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