# Why should someone buy a expensive stab.



## rstgyx (Apr 13, 2013)

Here's a helpful video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWR8RKJhBic

The main reason I purchased an expensive long rod (Doinker Plat Hi-Mod for $300 at my local store) was that I didn't want to buy another long rod in the future. It comes with all the weights I'll ever need, the material it is made out of is exceptional and can handle the weight I add on, you can adjust the amount of dampening in the Doinker, the brand itself is trustworthy, offers a great warranty service and is a pioneer in stabilisation. _These are just the things that I see_, there are a ton of other reasons why people prefer to purchase expensive stabilisation setups.


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## robin smith (Jun 6, 2011)

The only thing I can think of is if your are one of the people whom attach a large amount of weight. The less expensive stabs might get springy and actually make a steady hold more difficult. of coarse a doinker can make all the difference


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## joebehar (Nov 13, 2012)

rstgyx said:


> Here's a helpful video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWR8RKJhBic
> 
> The main reason I purchased an expensive long rod (Doinker Plat Hi-Mod for $300 at my local store) was that I didn't want to buy another long rod in the future. It comes with all the weights I'll ever need, the material it is made out of is exceptional and can handle the weight I add on, you can adjust the amount of dampening in the Doinker, the brand itself is trustworthy, offers a great warranty service and is a pioneer in stabilisation. _These are just the things that I see_, there are a ton of other reasons why people prefer to purchase expensive stabilisation setups.


I gotta play a bit of devil's advocate here....

Really, the only reason that you should have to buy a new rod is if it breaks. The only way I see rod breaking is if you sit on it by accident, and then a $300 rod will break just as easily as a $50 one.

It comes with all the weight I need...really? I can't add weights to any stabilizer 

Exceptional material...you MAY have a point here.

Adjust the dampening... you definitely have a point there

Trustworthy, good warranty, a pioneer in stabilization...seriously, its a stick with a screw on both ends, exactly what kind of warranty is needed? 

Having said all that, I'm a huge fan of "if it makes you feel better or even THINK you feel better and you can afford it" you should never deny yourself a shiny new toy. Notice, I said nothing about improving your scores


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I just made an excellent stabilizer for a student out of a piece of graphite golf club shaft, for about $10 worth of hardware and some epoxy. Works fine. For weekend archers, no, you don't NEED better rods.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Some people play best with Acushnet, some play best with Titleist. 


We shooters are no different. Some don't care what it looks like or who made it as long as it does it's job. For others it's about the quality a name has behind it, and still others feel better shooting with labels everywhere, it's part of how they work mentally. 


Will you ever notice the difference between a 200 and a 400 dollar stab? Probably not. Will you ever play up to the level of quality that a set of Titleist clubs were made for, probably not but the same mind set goes with them as does most 'high end' archery stuff. If You think you are or feel like a gamer/player, and tailor your gear around that mindset You potentially carry that confidence with you every time you play or shoot. 

I've seen this in every sport. If it wasn't prevalent there wouldn't be companies like Nike and Titleist and Hoyt and Mathews etc (random companies) wouldn't exist and we'd get all out stuff at Walmart and from the local sporting goods store. In some cases it can be proven that certain personality types actually perform better and have more confidence in higher end equipment. If that's you, so be it. 


I like my toys and am not shy about spending money on them, but only to a point and I don't upgrade every year to the best or newest. I use something until it wears out or breaks and replace it with another piece of quality gear, usually after several years of service.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

rob - 

Several reasons:

1. it makes you feel better / more important
2. you buy into the hype that if it's more expensive it's better
3. because <fill in the name> uses it
4. you don't really understand what a stab does
5. you hope to land a sponsorship
6. you have more dollars than sense 

Viper1 out.


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## Bowthrow (Nov 30, 2012)

One of the biggest reasons regardless of opinions already stated is simply confidence. People believe in quality and certain name brands. The more they believe in it the higher the confidence level. If I can get better scores cause I shoot better with x name brand bedside I believe in it then I'll buy it. Best example of this is rage broadheads.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

knotdodger said:


> I am sure in the history of this site, someone has asked this question....
> Why in the world would a guy like myself (strictly weekend archer), Or
> anyone else for that fact. Buy a 200 to 300 dollar long rod????
> 
> ...


I have a lot of weights on my stabs. Flexy bars don't cut it.
If you don't think it's going to do anything for you then it's just a distraction seeing ALL that money on the front of your bow.


Oh and why not?? I have a good job, I can spend the money. I get what I want for whatever the reason I want and it doesn't matter what certain smart-pants answers get put up here.


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## gjlama94 (Oct 11, 2013)

This basic question gets asked constantly around here.

What is really needed is for an elite archer to use a rig that an average Joe would use, possibly excepting the arrows since that seems to be the one thing most archers agree can improve scores.

Can Brady Ellison shoot 1300+ with a generic rig? Why not have limbwalker shoot one and see what happens?

Where does the skill of the archer yield to equipment quality? Vague statements about confidence are plausible but it would be nice to have a data point to work with.


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## tank69kma (May 1, 2013)

I don't buy into the hype, so I made my own. High quality CF tubing, machine my own ends and machine my weights out of brass. They work great and the local guys are very pleased with them. I even implemented a damping system. $4 an inch and I guarantee them on quality and craftsmanship.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

bowthrow, rharper - 

What I try to instill in my students is confidence in their ability and not some gadget. 
Just a different type of mindset.
When I tell them they "need" an upgrade, it's because they actually "need" it. 

Do they always listen? No, but the ones who get it tend to do better faster. 
Shinny toys are nice, as long as you realize they are just shinny toys.

Viper1 out.


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

Good deal. Thanks for the replies. Will stick with the cartel . Money saved 
can go for a riser for barebow.
Thanks again!!!


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

I shoot a blade, cause the chicks dig it! :shade: I shoot a blade cause I know it will get into my friend Robs head at the next shoot that I have better equipment. Lol jk Rob.

On a serious note I've seen "diving board" rods and no way I'm shooting something that does that. A rod isn't a rod, or changing from one to another wouldn't affect your tune. 
No disrespect intended John, but I'm betting you won't be shooting a golf club stab anytime soon? Shoot a few ends with it and your current one and let us know the results. Maybe a guy like you can shoot anything with great results?


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

If you use lot of end weight use stiff rod, if you use 1 or 2 end weights you will be much better using more flexible (usualy cheaper) ones.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys -

Lets talk about "a lot of weight up front" for a moment. 
I like a fairly quick bow roll after release.
That can be accomplished with about 6 ounces of head weight and in my case that's with an 8 ounce counter balance. 
The usual range for my students is between 4 - 8 ounces on rods between 28" and 32".
The cheapo Cartel rods handle that without breaking a sweat. 

Sure, more weight = greater inertia, but like anything else, it's all to easy to over do it. 
I see shooters struggling to hold their bow up and their upper torsos racking away from the target in release all too often (OK, more so with compounds than recurves)

And btw, when did a little flex become such a bad thing? 
I recall a few stabs in the past that were designed to shake like an epileptic hoola dancer. 

Viper1 out.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> I recall a few stabs in the past that were designed to shake like an epileptic hoola dancer.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Nice imagery


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Lets talk about "a lot of weight up front" for a moment.
> I like a fairly quick bow roll after release.
> ...


Viper, your reply got me thinking: 

1) if you typically have 4 ounces up front, is it a set rule that you always have 8 (one on each side of your side stabs) for counter balance or do you find it varies with the riser? i see folks shooting the formula risers and they tend to pack on a lot of weight up front in comparison to say, the carbon fiber Win & Win risers.
2) when do you recommend to students to try using a V-bar extension versus not using one?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

tunedlow said:


> i see folks shooting the formula risers and they tend to pack on a lot of weight up front in comparison to say, the carbon fiber Win & Win risers.


I think this is because the current trend in the US is to skip the extender and attach the V-bar straight to the riser. This requires more weight forward, because it's not as far away. So it might seem like the formula system requires this, but it's really just the stab setup.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

tunedlow said:


> Viper, your reply got me thinking:
> 
> 1) if you typically have 4 ounces up front, is it a set rule that you always have 8 (one on each side of your side stabs) for counter balance or do you find it varies with the riser? i see folks shooting the formula risers and they tend to pack on a lot of weight up front in comparison to say, the carbon fiber Win & Win risers.
> 2) when do you recommend to students to try using a V-bar extension versus not using one?
> ...


I've found that it depends on the shooter and the setup. I like to match total weight on my front and back, so if I have 8 oz up front, I run a total of 8 on the back but 4 on each side. This I have found works well for me in hold and follow through. The only thing I have to change for different designs of bows (GMX to CXT to HPX) is the length of the extension, or sometimes i remove it all together. Either way, it defintely depens on the shooter. One of my students has 6 oz up front, and only a total of 4 on the back with a 4" extension. When he shoots my bow he says the pin wants to rise on him....I can't keep the pin on his setup from dipping while expanding....everyone is different.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Suggestion: Shoot with a top end stab, then shoot with a low end stab. If you don't immediately notice where that extra money went, then no, you don't need a top end stab.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

tuned - 

The main factors involved with stab selection are total weight and rate of forward rotation. (The latter includes both before and after release - if that makes sense.) 
I try to use as much weight as I can be handle and as I said, I prefer a snappy forward roll.
Lateral stability, is a far second for most people. 
In my case the use of a face mounted counter weight does the trick.

How that happens is personal preference. 

However, the v-bar question is easy.
If any of my students ever show up with v-bars in any configuration, they can find another coach - period. 
Ditto for hoyt formula rigs.
They are told that day one - no one has broken either of those two rules yet. 

Viper1 out.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> tuned -
> 
> However, the v-bar question is easy.
> If any of my students ever show up with v-bars in any configuration, they can find another coach - period.
> ...


You teach students to only use the straight front bar (no side bars) and not use hoyt formula bows? sorry if I am misunderstanding the statement. what is your philosophy on this approach?


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## Sosius (Feb 5, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> tuned -
> 
> 
> However, the v-bar question is easy.
> ...


Why's that?


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm curious as well. I know that I saw score increases when I added v bars. Not big increases, but increases nonetheless. Is it just because that's how you've always done it, so you push it on your students, like the Koreans and their strings, or is there a good reason for it? Also curious about the formula statement. Seems unfair to not coach a kid because you don't like the equipment they use.


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

No offense meant, by the way. A long rod with a backweight obviously works great for you, but there is no one size fits all. I'm really curious as to your reasoning.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

S, gif and tuned - 

Because I personally feel v-bars typically do more harm than good for most shooters; more so for new shooters who don't know any better or aren't physically ready for the added weight. That added weight has little or no actual benefit (other than making a fashion statement), and frankly takes up way too much space when using indoor ranges good enough to provide bow racks. As I said above, I want my shooters to build confidence in their ability and not gadgets, because it's in vogue or "joe blow uses it". It really is a mind set thing.

I've made my thoughts on the formula rigs known before. They offer no benefits over a standard ILF coupling and has the assigned risk of having to use over-priced and usually under-performing hoyt limbs (with one exception, that has adapter plates). 

This is going to sound very snippy, but if one of my students wants either, then I have to believe they aren't smart enough for me to teach them anything - or we are on two separate wavelengths. 
Read what I said, they all have the option of working with other coaches, so far none have done so. 

edit -

gif -

Let me add something. I can't tell anyone what to do, it's not my place. However I do have a say in what "I" do. If some one wants me to work with them, then it's by my rules, not there's. I know that's not "PC" these days, but I guess I'm a dinosaur. 

Viper1 out.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Viper1, please explain in detail your distaste for Formula setups. It's very interesting.

Also interesting is your preference for snappy reactions from lots of weights in front. I would like to see how that translates to stable repeatable shots and then score.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> I've made my thoughts on the formula rigs known before. They offer no benefits over a standard ILF coupling and has the assigned risk of having to use over-priced and usually under-performing hoyt limbs (with one exception, that has adapter plates).
> 
> 
> Viper1 out.


Hmm, fair enough.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> Because I personally feel v-bars typically do more harm than good for most shooters; more so for new shooters who don't know any better or aren't physically ready for the added weight. That added weight has little or no actual benefit (other than making a fashion statement), and frankly takes up way too much space when using indoor ranges good enough to provide bow racks. As I said above, I want my shooters to build confidence in their ability and not gadgets, because it's in vogue or "joe blow uses it". It really is a mind set thing.


Are all your students beginners? If they are then your reasons are understandable. Musashi defeated his samurai opponent with a boat oar. But I digress.....


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## MJAnderson68 (Nov 15, 2013)

Viper,

Curious about this too. I'm a very novice shooter and picked up a used Vbar set that I have only used a few times (I needed a long bar anyway and snapped up a good deal on the package). I played with the weights such that I get a very slow dip down after my shots. It seemed to make sense that you would want the bow as stable as possible for as long as possible even after the shot. Although what makes sense to me is rarely the correct thing to do...


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The reason for a V-bar setup, is to maximise rotational inertia in the yaw axis. You could distribute the weight directly fore and aft the central plane of the bow, but chances are the after weights will get in the way of your string. That's why it's split down the middle. That's also why compound archers typically don't use vbars, because with a release aid, they don't have to deal with a laterally oscillating string. The yaw axis is the most important axis to consider for shot stability.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> S, gif and tuned -
> 
> Because I personally feel v-bars typically do more harm than good for most shooters; more so for new shooters who don't know any better or aren't physically ready for the added weight. That added weight has little or no actual benefit (other than making a fashion statement), and frankly takes up way too much space when using indoor ranges good enough to provide bow racks. As I said above, I want my shooters to build confidence in their ability and not gadgets, because it's in vogue or "joe blow uses it". It really is a mind set thing.
> 
> Viper1 out.


I wouldnt call twin vbars in vogue. That makes it appear like its a fad. They have been in use at all levels of archery since the 80s ( more than 30 years). You will find that the vast vast majority of the olympic recurve archers shoot with twin vbars. Some fixed, some dangle, some are long, some are extended. But used they are. It is more rare to still see a top level archer using a single rod with back weight. 

Even Butch Johnson changed to use them. John Magera i think still uses a single rod and back weight. But he is one of the few. 

Thats like saying carbon arrows are in vogue and i will only teach archers who will use aluminum arrows and build confidence with them. Or Carbon limbs are in vogue, and i prefer to only teach students who shoot wood limbs. 

Its all just a tool to help shoot the arrow. None of it is cheating. 

In the Korean archery system, they add the front stab in elementary school. They add the v bars by middle school. I cant imagine the harm you think it adds. 


Chris


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> S, gif and tuned -
> 
> Because I personally feel v-bars typically do more harm than good for most shooters; more so for new shooters who don't know any better or aren't physically ready for the added weight. That added weight has little or no actual benefit (other than making a fashion statement), and frankly takes up way too much space when using indoor ranges good enough to provide bow racks. As I said above, I want my shooters to build confidence in their ability and not gadgets, because it's in vogue or "joe blow uses it". It really is a mind set thing.
> 
> ...


Viper, thanks for your thoughts. I shot barebow and added the single front stab when I started gaining more interest in shooting the Oly style. The last thing I added was a sight because I had enough to learn with grip and follow through.

I have tried the Formula bows a lot of times to see if they would grow on me and it really hasn't. When I was in the market for a new bow, I considered the formula bow but shifting to formula was my deal-breaker. I have a couple ILF limbs that I really like and I didn't want to get a bow that didn't offer me a compelling reason to switch. I will say this about the formula bows though they are really light.


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## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

I use v-bars because my riser has no hole for a backweight... and I'm not skilled enough to tap one myself. That being said, I use 6 inch side rods, no extender, and just a simple cap weight on them..


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

tmd -

Actually, I have a few people who have competed nationally and did pretty well. 
The same rules go for them as well.

Your comment about rotational stability is of course correct. The flaw in the reasoning is believing it's a free lunch. 
My contention is that it isn't, and the risk to benefit ratio isn't positive - on both physical and psychological levels. 

Chris -

Perhaps "in vogue" was a poor choice of terms, it's more a matter of the "follow the leader" mentality, which is painfully prevalent. 
Kinda like following the korean women's technique, even if you build and physiology bear no resemblance to theirs. In simpler terms, it's like me trying to use NASCAR racing techniques on the highway in my wife's Toyota. The theories may be sound; the practice, not so much. 

Last time i checked, it's pretty rare that here in the US of A we follow the same "school archery programs" as in S Korea. 
Different culture, different mindset. Taking a kid and training him every day to become an Olympian is very different from the more typical weekend warrior programs we have here, both for kids and adults. Maybe that will change in the future, but I seriously doubt it. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Even Butch Johnson changed to use them. John Magera i think still uses a single rod and back weight. But he is one of the few.


Butch tapped his first Formula riser to accept a backweight, then eventually switched to W&W, where he used V-bars because they didn't have a backweight bushing, and you can't drill and tap carbon. Now that he's back to using the Formula risers, he may go back to a single backweight again. Not sure.

I used V-bars intially, until right after the 2004 TX Shootout. Then I switched to a single backweight after having shot with Butch for two events and seeing what he was doing without "annoying" V-bars. My average never changed. However, after a bit of a layoff in 2007-2009, I've been using V-bars, and used them at the 2012 Oly. trials to shoot all my PB outdoor scores, then a few weeks later at the TX State field event, to set two new state field records. I still use them today.

I put up with V-bars because I think they are good for a few points. Back in 2004, I really didn't know any different, and my inexperience was my greatest limiting factor, not my v-bars, or lack thereof.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

Sorry buddy, still willing to bet if you retuned without them, you're scores would still be within statistical error. 
Psychological effects not withstanding -yeah, you're human.

Kinda hard to disregard 10 years of experience on a number of levels. 

And if I might, you're making the same mistake most people make - and that's comparing a Olympic level shooter with a weekend warrior. The latter are the people reading this stuff and I guess keeping stab manufacturers and pro shops in business.

Viper1 out.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Im not saying they are right for everyone or will work for everyone. And im not saying i start out beginners with them. There is a time and place to add any stab on the bow for sure. 

What i am saying is i think its a mistake to exclude them completely and basing them to have no merit. Especially in the face of results in the last 30 years people shooting vbar stab setup. 

It is after all only a tool at our disposal to help shoot the arrow. 

And i was not comparing an Olympic level archer to a weekend warrior. I was comparing olympic RECURVE archers in general. All skill levels. Olympic recurve is with sight and plunger and clicker and stabilizer setups. 

Front stab and vbars is a classic setup and has been for the last 30 years. Once thing i can say for sure, is that while there is some follow the leader in evidence, top archers are very quick to get rid of something that doesnt work. And that also trickles down. 

That the v bars are still around while the top and bottom short stab setup is not, says alot about what works best on the bow. 


Chris


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## ghost_STi (Jul 25, 2010)

TONY! You and your distaste for V-bars and Formulas... Some things never change!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chris -

We're sorta agreeing.
Always helps to understand what the other person is saying. Your bend and my bend may not be the same. 

The twin stabs that Earl Hoyt introduced in the 60's was an attempt to increase inertia and dampen vibration (hence the use of the TFCs). The did very little for balance and my actually have hurt. That's why they died out. 

It's my feeling that the v-bars have lasted so long *because *they have become common place. A cart before the horse thing. Newbies use them because their coach told them to use them, and their coach's coach told them (or they saw it on youtube). It's at a point where few people actually think about it., they just accept it. At an elite level even the notion of anything adding a point to your score has to be taken seriously, whether real or not. That might be fine, However, there a trickle down phenomenon that carries all the way to the 6 year-olds with v-bars on wooden bows (with no slings). 

In my experience, their value is limited at best, and I only have two equipment rules that aren't negotiable. If that's unacceptable to some one, I really don't have an issue with them finding another instructor or coach. There are plenty out there. This is the way I teach, and I don't expect to be changing anytime soon, nor do I expect you to either - presenting choices is all good. 

ghost -

You did pretty well in Vegas a few years ago without them, IIRC. 
Need to get you outdoors this year.

Viper1 out.


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

This was informative. Thanks. 
If I can ever get close to a 1200 Fita, I may try some different gadgets. 
But for now, I still have to meet a goal of a 1150.....hehe

Rob B.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Let them fly ... to see if they work









Taken today by my daugther with her mobile phone while her brother was testing a new stab ...


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

I like how little input I have in my own choice of what gear to use. If I'm not being brainwashed by Brady Ellison, I'm just blindly following my coaches orders, or the advice of some archery forum, or the Koreans, or 30 years of tradition. Every time some new piece of gear becomes standard, I buy it without question, never evaluating for myself the benefits of its use. I am an enormous tool. 

That was sarcasm by the way.

Give the archery community some credit. Some of us are actually capable of thinking critically.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Lets talk about "a lot of weight up front" for a moment.
> I like a fairly quick bow roll after release.
> ...


Yes, most people do not need lots of weight so they do not need stiff rods (as most people do not shoot 45# OTF + with recurve)......I just said you need stiff rod if you use lots of weight.

little flex is fine, big flex is not IMO


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Well i can attest that cheapo rods can be poor performers. My buddy was shooting some generic long rod and his bow was a vibration machine. I loaned him a doinker fatty i had lying around and it made a very appreciable difference. Im not saying this is a normal thing but in this case it made a huge difference. Granted his long rod was an older model. We shoot a very similar setup and my bow is smooth as butter. His rattled and clanked alot at the shot. I helped him tune his gear up and it was better but not great. The long rod turned out to be the main offender. Now his bow shoots pretty darn smooth.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

I really not a fan of cheap rods, especially Cartels. they feel "twangy" after the shot and I find the threads are poorly cut and tend to come loose.

there is a significant difference in feel between rods, I suspect most people would be able to express a preference once way or the other if they shot them blind.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Ok, I have not verified this myself, but there was an account of how somebody sawed open a particular brand of stabilizer, CARBON, uh huh, and found some carbon inside. 

Powdered. Technically still counts as carbon rods. I'm not going to say which brand it is, but I think we all know the answer.

Reo Wilde was in Singapore for the Indoor World Cup and was presented with a set of the rods of the same brand as a prize from an equipment dealer. I was looking at Reo's expression the whole time and I couldn't stop giggling.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

So you're point is that it wasn't a a solid rod of carbon? or that they put a powered internal dampening system inside? 

I've had a number of brands of stabs - they are all carbon tubes. Not solid rods. from SF and easton, to doinker and Bee stinger.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Dacer said:


> So you're point is that it wasn't a a solid rod of carbon? or that they put a powered internal dampening system inside?
> 
> I've had a number of brands of stabs - they are all carbon tubes. Not solid rods. from SF and easton, to doinker and Bee stinger.


My wife told me this. Someone told my wife. And I do not know who told that person this, or if it was that person who cut open his rod, the point being this:

Carbon, is just another word, until it does what one expects it to do.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

I have no idea what you are trying to imply here. Is english your first language?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

It is not my native language. My native language is a dialect called Hakka.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FWIW, I broke 300 at 90M back in late 2003 using a 68" Hoyt GM riser, C+ limbs that were so old they had yellowed foam, A/C/C's (not A/C/E's!), a cheap Check-it 25 year-old sight, and a 36" TAPERED ALUMINUM STABILIZER that sounded like a gong going off every time I shot. 

I'm thinking that until an archer is breaking 300 at 70M, maybe even a little better, then it's not anything to really worry that much about.


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## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> FWIW, I broke 300 at 90M back in late 2003 using a 68" Hoyt GM riser, C+ limbs that were so old they had yellowed foam, A/C/C's (not A/C/E's!), a cheap Check-it 25 year-old sight, and a 36" TAPERED ALUMINUM STABILIZER that sounded like a gong going off every time I shot.
> 
> I'm thinking that until an archer is breaking 300 at 70M, maybe even a little better, then it's not anything to really worry that much about.


I totally agree, I also think I did better than you. PB 307 on 90m circa 1975 with this setup:
View attachment 1935791

No clicker, but I used mirror for draw check instead. 
Well I have to admit that it happened only once. Later on I was close quite a few times but never crossed 300 again. I loved to shoot 90m, and was able to train about 4-5 hrs a day, every day, mostly you guessed it 90m! I used bike to retrieve the arrows. So the hardware can help but dedication to the sport is the most important one. Now, if money is not the problem then why not have the best equipment? This way you will know for sure if new stab didn't help you gain the points then it must be you interfering with the bow.

George M.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

theminoritydude said:


> My wife told me this. Someone told my wife. And I do not know who told that person this, or if it was that person who cut open his rod, the point being this:
> 
> Carbon, is just another word, until it does what one expects it to do.


Do you have any idea how stabs are built? I mean any AT ALL?

-Grant


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

grantmac said:


> do you have any idea how stabs are built? I mean any at all?
> 
> -grant


no.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I know what it's supposed to do.


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

> I totally agree, I also think I did better than you. PB 307 on 90m circa 1975 with this setup:
> Click image for larger version. Name: gm1975.jpg Views: 8 Size: 75.1 KB ID: 1935791


Click image for larger version. Name: gm1975.jpg Views: 8 Size: 75.1 KB ID: 1935791

That's Awesome....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

theminoritydude said:


> no.


So why would you comment on it?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

grantmac said:


> So why would you comment on it?


I apologise for commenting on the comments of someone else when I had no idea on how the product being discussed was manufactured.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I guess people like Copernicus and Galileo DESERVED to be punished.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> I guess people like Copernicus and Galileo DESERVED to be punished.



No they didn't

BUT They had science, publishable evidence, and first hand measurements. Not something a friend of a friend, who told your wife that carbon stabilizers are just filled with carbon powder. Something you may be finding on this forum is that when arbitrary numbers or anecdotal evidence is used - it typically gets challenged and questioned... And it should. 

If you are going to draw conclusions that are not already being widely accepted then expect to be questioned on the origin of your thoughts, and what evidence you have. 

Being snarky in response to challenges and questions to your statements doesn't give credence to your arguments.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Dacer said:


> No they didn't
> 
> BUT They had science, publishable evidence, and first hand measurements. Not something a friend of a friend, who told your wife that carbon stabilizers are just filled with carbon powder.


Then I guess disclaimers and quotes can all go to hell. If I say I am going to tell a fairytale about an all knowing all powerful entity in the sky with noodly appendages, I am pretty sure you're going to debate me on the probability of the FSM existing.

And I think you may have totally missed the point of the post, which I may not have put forth clearly enough for you to see. That not all claims of materials being used, should be used to infer performance.

You're welcome.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Copernicus and Galileo were NOT the authority on heavenly bodies during their time. If you would like to discuss manufacturing processes, you're talking about the guys who claim expertise in the area, and that would be the church. 

These two jokers didn't have anything. Science wasn't the rule of the day, religion and the church was, and some might argue, still is.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

http://www.thearcheryshop.co.uk/967-2852-thickbox/win-win-cx2-carbon-v-bar.jpg

http://www.shibuya-archery.com/images/productTop/productList/sv_caruno_mv.jpg

For the benefit of the "discussion", if there is still one.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Here's a thought experiment. Supposed I sliced up the Caruno Vbar and inserted some "CARBON" in between and all around the original dimensions, would that make the Vbar more.....

Massive?


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> Here's a thought experiment. Supposed I sliced up the Caruno Vbar and inserted some "CARBON" in between and all around the original dimensions, would that make the Vbar more.....
> 
> Massive?


your question isn't clear. 

If you mean that you want to replace the aluminum vbar with carbon? then that depends on the resin content of the carbon material being used. But most likely it would have less mass.

You missed my point. But Thats fine.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

theminoritydude said:


> Here's a thought experiment. Supposed I sliced up the Caruno Vbar and inserted some "CARBON" in between and all around the original dimensions, would that make the Vbar more.....
> 
> Massive?


Educate yourself on some basic principles of stab design then get back to us. Because right now it's like trying to explain things to a 6 year old and we're all out of crayons.

-Grant


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Then get some more crayons.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Dacer said:


> your question isn't clear.
> 
> If you mean that you want to replace the aluminum vbar with carbon? then that depends on the resin content of the carbon material being used. But most likely it would have less mass.


Indeed. But the question directs the crowd in a direction which is redundant to the function of a V-Bar. It is very prevalent in marketing, but we all buy into it, and they know that, hence the market is flooded with all sorts of claims, and plenty of it has to do with carbon.

Having said that, I'm not saying that a lighter or a heavier V-bar is desirable either way. But apparently mass has become part of the sales pitch.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

grantmac, I'm sorry, I don't know what got into me.

I'm sure you use a pen like most adults do.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Even though a stabilizer is just a stick with weight in the end, a stick that doesn't break easily and doesn't rattle your fillings out of your teeth is better, I'd say. A good compromise is easy to get. I shoot with Kaya Soul stabs, they are cheap and good enough for me, also ones used to shoot 342 WR at 90m, so they definetely do the job if you know how to shoot. I think there are a lot of similar stabs, like Soma cex stabs and W&W hmc stabs, which are good enough. I think there might be very, very marginal gains if any on the most expensive stabs, and I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy them for that, but if you get stuff for free, why not.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

The question subject of this topic should be asked to Marino Bergna, Italian Archer, Master Class, that last Sunday was shooting as below... 









Few notes:
620 in qualification (60 mt) and 4th in finals
By Bernardini Mito riser and old W&W limbs
Is using this set up often when he shoots recurve, but usually he shoots Bare Bow.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

I use to shoot with a lot of weight but change to a lighter weight to 6oz front and
3oz on each side. Something I learned in Korean ladies archers just by watching
Them then worked on my form. I m more in line with the bow and shoot within
3sec. Or at least try to.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

Georgemay said:


> I totally agree, I also think I did better than you. PB 307 on 90m circa 1975 with this setup:
> View attachment 1935791
> 
> 
> George M.


Great picture George! If you still have that bow, bring it to Cedar Creek next week and I'll bring mine.

TAO


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> FWIW, I broke 300 at 90M back in late 2003 using a 68" Hoyt GM riser, C+ limbs that were so old they had yellowed foam, A/C/C's (not A/C/E's!), a cheap Check-it 25 year-old sight, and a 36" TAPERED ALUMINUM STABILIZER that sounded like a gong going off every time I shot.
> 
> I'm thinking that until an archer is breaking 300 at 70M, maybe even a little better, then it's not anything to really worry that much about.


I sold off my C+ limbs last year but I still have the riser, Chek-it sight and 36" tapered stabilizer (if you use a Beiter washer under the threads you can make the ringing go away). I hold that old riser up to the new stuff to show my JOAD archers that the basic geometry of risers hasn't changed much.

BTW some of my beginning JOAD archers are using some of my old tapered Easton stabilizers and Chek-it sights until they upgrade their set-ups. You can find the old stabs on eBay for $10 or so and the Chek-it tournament sights in the $50-$70 range ( they used to go for about $25 until people rediscovered them).

Use the money you save for a good riser and arrows.

TAO


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> The question subject of this topic should be asked to Marino Bergna, Italian Archer, Master Class, that last Sunday was shooting as below...
> 
> View attachment 1941631
> 
> ...


Very cool! 

I might try and make one of those. 
Bet a maple dowel or bamboo will work. 
I might try 1/2" copper pipe too.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

cc46 said:


> I might try 1/2" copper pipe too.


I bet it would look great if you oxidize it green!

TAO


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

theminoritydude said:


> It is not my native language. My native language is a dialect called Hakka.


Hmm. South China, small village, or at least away from the big cities..

Pretty good English for someone with that dialect as a first language.

And if you still drink Tea, you probably like it way stronger than most people's coffee.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Stabilizers are the number one cause of limb flutter.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

theminoritydude said:


> Stabilizers are the number one cause of limb flutter.


Then why don't the limbs on my barebow flutter?

-Grant


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## robin smith (Jun 6, 2011)

limb flutter what is this exactly? I do not want to interpret wrongly what you are saying.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I probably coined that term (or not). I use it to differentiate between in phase waveforms that travels from the two limb tips to the riser in a back and forth manner which I recognise as "vibration", as opposed to an out of phase synchronized movement of the limbs which results in an up/down movement. 

Some folks I know where I come from perform a kind of "stabilizer test" by holding one limb near the tip and aggressively pluck the string, observing what they call "vibrations" after that, and how long it take to die off, as a gauge of how effective their stabilizers are. I think that is a mistake, on more than one level. I think that is a gross misunderstanding on what stabilizers/dampers were each designed primarily for, and constitutes vibration which is of interest at an engineering level. What the archer observes after that plucking, is what I would term "Limb Flutter". It is nearly absent when the same test is done on a bare bow, something that contradicts the test itself, but as usual many people have different excuses for it.

All bows vibrate after the shot, with or without the stabilizer/damper system. Limb flutter on the other hand occurs because the stabiliser, a rigid rod, is working. The entire relationship paradoxical, one which not many people are aware of, and to a lesser extent talk about.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Of course, one might ask if limb flutter is totally absent on bare bows. It really says heaps about how we perceive our bows. Some of us see a bare bow as devoid of any stabilization, and that a strict segregation exists between a system attached with modular stabilization devices, and one without. I prefer to see it as the degree of stabillization that is present. Therefore, limb flutter is not exclusive to one system over the other, but is less observable on a bare bow. 

The apparent paradox is this: The more stable your system is, the more the limbs flutter. IF you bow is not properly tuned. The "cheat" here is the use of dampers.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Have a read:
www.tenzone.u-net.com/Equipment/stabilisation/pdfs/stab4a4.pdf‎


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Not Found

The requested URL /Equipment/stabilisation/pdfs/stab4a4.pdfâ€Ž was not found on this server.
Apache/1.3.33 Server at www.tenzone.u-net.com Port 80


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Why don't you just speak your mind?


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## BenConnor (Feb 15, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> I probably coined that term (or not). I use it to differentiate between in phase waveforms that travels from the two limb tips to the riser in a back and forth manner which I recognise as "vibration", as opposed to an out of phase synchronized movement of the limbs which results in an up/down movement.
> 
> Some folks I know where I come from perform a kind of "stabilizer test" by holding one limb near the tip and aggressively pluck the string, observing what they call "vibrations" after that, and how long it take to die off, as a gauge of how effective their stabilizers are. I think that is a mistake, on more than one level. I think that is a gross misunderstanding on what stabilizers/dampers were each designed primarily for, and constitutes vibration which is of interest at an engineering level. What the archer observes after that plucking, is what I would term "Limb Flutter". It is nearly absent when the same test is done on a bare bow, something that contradicts the test itself, but as usual many people have different excuses for it.
> 
> All bows vibrate after the shot, with or without the stabilizer/damper system. Limb flutter on the other hand occurs because the stabiliser, a rigid rod, is working. The entire relationship paradoxical, one which not many people are aware of, and to a lesser extent talk about.



After some initial, possibly language-induced, misgivings I'm considering the possibility TMD might know something about this.

If I understand this correctly some attribute of the stabilizer system, and to a lesser extent the rest of the bow, induces an out-of-phase component into the vibration of the limbs post-shot. So the questions that arise from this (for me) are:

- Is 'limb flutter' (the out-of-phase vibration) bad / dangerous / unpleasant?
- Assuming there is some reason to worry about it, what attributes of the bow / stab system mediate its effects? (I'm guessing stab placement on the riser, and maybe stab length / stiffness / end weight / mass distribution would be important)
- Again assuming it's an actual problem, what tuning measures can practically be taken to reduce limb flutter besides adding damping?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

BenConnor said:


> After some initial, possibly language-induced, misgivings I'm considering the possibility TMD might know something about this.
> 
> If I understand this correctly some attribute of the stabilizer system, and to a lesser extent the rest of the bow, induces an out-of-phase component into the vibration of the limbs post-shot. So the questions that arise from this (for me) are:
> 
> ...


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

dchan said:


> Hmm. South China, small village, or at least away from the big cities..
> 
> Pretty good English for someone with that dialect as a first language.
> 
> And if you still drink Tea, you probably like it way stronger than most people's coffee.


Dchan, you're a level 4 coach. If I asked a level 2 coach, what the function(s) of a pair of side rods are, what kind of answer(s) should I expect, and should I expect an answer at all?


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

theminoritydude said:


> Dchan, you're a level 4 coach. If I asked a level 2 coach, what the function(s) of a pair of side rods are, what kind of answer(s) should I expect, and should I expect an answer at all?


1) expect a well thought out answer. if they shoot a lot and shoot well, expect an answer that has been field tested.
2) yes, expect an answer. a coach provides information so i imagine you'd get that.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

theminoritydude said:


> Dchan, you're a level 4 coach. If I asked a level 2 coach, what the function(s) of a pair of side rods are, what kind of answer(s) should I expect, and should I expect an answer at all?


as a level 2 coach, i would reply

1. control the shot by reducing torque and pitch without making the bow front heavy
2. to counterbalance so the bow can be aimed easily at full draw
3. to absorb vibration and dampen the recoil of the shot


lastly, they prevent a rotation left and right ( like an airplane propeller) of the bow during the shot as the arrow leaves the string. 

Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

That's wonderful guys. Where I come from, the coaches are not divided into levels 1,2,3 or 4, but as Coach, Senior Coach, Master coach.

One senior coach had problems stringing up a bow during a demonstration. Another coach was once overheard saying something to the effect of "Elan is the best, the limbs don't need to be aligned."

Yet another one determined that the faster a bow dropped, the better it is.

Did I mention that one senior coach never shot 70M ?

I have never asked any of them the question that I had posted here. I think I'll try it one of these days. Once again, thanks guys.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

theminoritydude said:


> That's wonderful guys. Where I come from, the coaches are not divided into levels 1,2,3 or 4, but as Coach, Senior Coach, Master coach.
> 
> One senior coach had problems stringing up a bow during a demonstration. Another coach was once overheard saying something to the effect of "Elan is the best, the limbs don't need to be aligned."
> 
> ...


man, based on all those observations, i might take their advice with a grain of salt and ask for clarification of their views. the more you know WHY they say the stuff they do, the more you'll have an awareness of how to cherry pick advice as best as you can to make it work for you.

reminds me of a coach i've heard of that subscribes to the closed stance as the only way to get good bow arm alignment. thing is, i compete with tons of other folks that use a traditional stance and an open stance that get great bow arm alignment when they shoot.


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