# Bad target panic



## 4D4life

I had the same problem I started out just taking the target down and shooting at a black bale and focusing on form I ended up having to change releases in the end though and that cured the issue


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## da white shoe

I don't believe that anyone on this planet could've ever had a worse case of target panic than I did. I had everything... all at the same time! I was doing everything that you can do to bring on TP... all at the same time!
I was trying to shoot a bow that was 2" too long in draw length, it was set at 80lbs, I aimed with one eye closed through a very small peep and I was timing my release to the pin moving across the target. Does any of this sound familiar to you?
Being this is the internet and I don't know you, I can't say for sure what it will take for you to get past this thing, but I can tell you how I did it. 

I'm not sure where the light bulb came from, but at some point I realized that I had been wrong in my method all of those early years in archery. I had always just naturally assumed that I needed to shoot the bow. 
To use every muscle and all the hand-eye coordination that I could muster to draw, hold and fire an arrow. What helped me the most was finally understanding that I needed to let the bow shoot itself! I needed to just stay out of the way
and try my best to NOT influence the shot. However, I still needed a plan to learn how to trust myself.

The first thing I did was buy a new bow that actually fit and I dropped it down to 65lbs with an 85% let-off. Then, I committed myself to learning how to aim with both eyes open. 
Finally, I bought a hinge release and set about learning... or, I should say, re-learning how to shoot a bow. The hinge was used because I knew that I could not be trusted with a trigger... in the state I was in.
These are the steps I followed. I did it by myself, all alone with no one around to help... no mentor, no coach, not even the internet. 
Strangely enough, it really wasn't that hard for me to completely rebuild the way I shot a bow. Once I decided to relinquish control of when the shot would happen... then, I was free to direct my total concentration on the place I wanted the arrow to go.

From what you've written, I can't be sure what problems you are having or what your process has been for shooting a bow.... so, I'll just include everything that could matter.

.............................. .........THE GRIP.......................... ........................
Before drawing the bow, position your hand on the grip and start pulling with your release hand to put pressure on the string. You are trying to find the exact position for your bow hand to be in. You want to feel all of the pressure from the bow handle on one point of your palm... right from the start of your draw. I have always remembered Randy Ulmer’s description of it. He said to pretend that there is a steel rod running parallel and exactly between the two bones inside your forearm. Where that rod would exit your palm is where this point is. If you find this spot, it will help keep you from torqueing the bow handle.

You will clear a path for the bowstring and negate torque at the same time if you position the elbow of your bow arm out, away from the bow... not down toward the ground. Also, rotate the bottom of your bow hand away from the bow so that your knuckles are at a 45 degree angle to the floor. Learn to find your grip before you draw the bow on every shot, but once you start your draw, do not move your bow hand AT ALL.

.............................. .............................. ...............ANCHOR......... .............................. ..............
There is no universal anchor point that will work for everyone, but there are some things that make a great anchor point. Having at least two solid, easy-to-repeat points of contact with your face is recommended. For instance, the string just touching the end of the nose.. with a knuckle of the release hand dug in behind the jaw bone. The perfect one would have your head held straight with the rest of your spine, shoulders level, release-side forearm in a straight line with the arrow at full draw and no part of the string in heavy contact with any part of the face.

As long as these things are kept in mind, whatever feels comfortable will be OK, but remember that the higher your anchor is, the lower the peep is in the string. The closer you have the peep to your nock on the string, the lower your sights will have to be. At some point that can make it impossible to shoot at a decent distance... what that distance ends up being depends on the bow and the arrow used. Peep height should be perfected by drawing with your eyes closed. When you open them, the peep should be right there... every time.


.............................. .............................. ................BACK TENSION AND THE SURPRISE RELEASE....................... .....................
In order to use back tension to achieve a surprise release, you must trust the bow, your form and the arrow. In order to become that trusting, your form, concentration and execution have to be very consistent. That takes a lot of work... and enough time and repetition to make it automatic! You have to be able to completely focus on the spot you want to hit and let go of control... control of the bow, the sight pin and the moment of release. You’re brain isn’t going to be able to do that without a lot of re-programming! You have to do it in steps and you can’t take any shortcuts.

Learning to give up control is far easier using a back tension release aid. I'm not saying you can't use a trigger release to get a surprise release, but it is a lot easier to cheat with a finger-triggered release. After you have mastered this technique, it will be fairly easy to learn to do the same thing with your hunting release. 

To shoot using back tension, you flex or squeeze the release-side muscles of your back... sort of like you are trying to make one shoulder blade touch the other one. To find these muscles, have someone stand facing you while you pretend to hold a bow at full draw. Have them grasp your elbows and try to gently force you to give them a hug while you resist, all the while keeping your arms relaxed. The back muscles you feel resisting are the ones you need to flex to trigger the shot.

.............................. .............................. ..............MUSCLE RELAXATION.................... .............................. .............................. ..
Your muscles have to be relaxed at full draw... and remain relaxed... in order for your sight pins to be steady. At full draw, your release hand as well as your bow hand, should be completely relaxed. You don't want to be grasping or squeezing the barrel of the release or the grip of your bow handle. Also, do not force either of your hands open. Your fingers should be hanging limp and relaxed. I lightly touch my first finger and my thumb together around the bow handle, but some like to use a wrist sling. Use the bones in your arms and the muscles in your back to draw the bow. Use the same bones and back-muscles to hold as much of the weight of the bow at full draw as you can and I would recommend drawing the string straight back to your anchor point. Hold the bow out, pointed at the target, draw it straight back using your back muscles and without lifting it any higher. Once at full draw, relax every muscle in your arms that you don't need to use to stay at full draw. That goes for the muscles in your shoulders, torso and legs, too. Always remember; it's the tension in your muscles that causes your sights to wobble and jump around. If you can learn to relax everything that isn't needed to hold at full draw, your sight pins will barely even move. Almost like a bench rested rifle! It is very important that your bow is set at the correct draw length. If it is too long... or too short, you will have a very hard time relaxing fully. The same importance applies to peep height... it has to be perfect.


............................ ..............THE FOLLOW THROUGH....................... ...............
When you "follow through" after the bow goes off, people say you should try to keep the pin on the target or keep aiming until the arrow hits. I've always felt that that was a bad way to describe it. You can't keep aiming or even see the pin once you shoot. 

What I would say is... keep your T form until your shot reaches it's conclusion, (the thing that you have designated in your shot sequence to mark that moment), do not drop your bow arm or move your head, stay relaxed and let the bow go where it wants to go without grabbing for it. Good follow through takes practice to perfect and regular maintenance to upkeep.


.............................. ..............THE FIRST STEP.......................... ...................
It's tempting to just go right out and try all of this on a target at 20 yards, but DON'T DO IT! When you start trying all of this for the first time, it is very important, and it will speed up the learning process... if you completely eliminate the aiming part of shooting the bow. Work on relaxation and a surprise release before you ever have to worry about aiming. In order to better feel what is happening, you need to do this with your eyes closed at first. 

To get a feel for this, your target needs to be at the same height as your arrow at first. I hang my target from a rafter and stand close, so that the tip of my arrow is about 3 1/2 feet away from the target at full draw. After you reach full draw and have lined everything up, close your eyes, relax and think through every step of the shot. The first few times the bow goes off, it will scare the heck out of you. Keep at it! You will get used to it and at the point that you start breaking arrows because they're hitting each other at 20 or even 30 yards... you'll begin to crave that feeling! Just remember that it's important to never be able to anticipate exactly when the shot will break. You need the surprise... just like a benched down rifle shooter does. No cheating! 
This step is only meant to teach you how to make the release trigger with back tension... within the span of time that you can hold steady with full concentration on aiming. Only you will know when you've reached that point. Don't rush it. You need to be consistent before you move on to the next step. If the release doesn't fire before you start to lose concentration, let down and start over again.

.............................. ...............THE FOUNDATION.................... .....................
When the surprise release feels VERY comfortable, move to a blank target that is 3 yards away and start shooting with both eyes open, but use no spot and try not to aim for a spot on the target... in fact, it would be better to just take the sight off your bow or cover the pins with tape for this step. You need to ingrain the feel of the shot process so that it becomes automatic... as in the term, "muscle memory." This step might take a couple days or a couple weeks... just make sure you do it until it feels very comfortable. Only then is it time to learn to do it while aiming.

.............................. ..............AIMING.......... .............................. ..............
To aim, reach full draw with a perfect T form, line up your bubble level, pick the right pin and center it all in the peep. Next, move your whole upper body to get on target. You don't want to just move your arm up and down or side to side. That introduces torque. Your upper body and arms should at all times form a perfect T shape at full draw.
When everything is lined up, start consciously relaxing muscles. Hold the bow back with your back muscles. Start with relaxing your hands and work your way up your arms and through the shoulders. When you've shot this way long enough, you won't have to even think about this step. 
Then go into aiming mode. Your full concentration switches to the spot and only the spot. Keeping both eyes open is very important. Your binocular vision will let you focus on the spot with out the sight pin covering it up and blocking your vision of it. The pin will be blurry and it will seem to be floating around the spot, but you need to forget about the pin. You will naturally try to keep it on the spot without even thinking about it. You should be focusing on the spot and nothing else. Keep your concentration while slowly squeezing through the shot, making sure to follow through after the release.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv CONTINUED BELOW vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


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## da white shoe

.............................. ....................THE BRIDGE........................ .............................. ..........
At this point, you’ve learned how to trigger the shot with back tension and a surprise release. Only now, with this last step... will you tie your new shooting process in with the aiming process. 
Move to 5 yards with a target that has a big spot to aim at. A six inch square of duct tape or a paper plate will work nicely. 

Begin shooting. Let the shooting process you've instilled run on auto-pilot... all you should have in your head is that spot. Nothing else matters. Trust the bow to do it’s job. Keep in mind that at this stage, where the arrow ends up in the target isn't important. What you are trying to do is capture the feeling of the perfect execution of the shot... while aiming at the same time. Shoot one arrow with full concentration on the spot, walk up, pull it and repeat. If your concentration slips at any moment during the shot, let down. Do not let an arrow go downrange that doesn't have your perfect execution behind it. If you find that this is hard to do, you are either starting to wear out and should quit for the day... or you need to put more time in at the 3 yard, blank target.

At some point, all of your arrows will start to find the center of the spots. When that happens... keep doing it. Do it until you don't even have to think about it. Do it until you absolutely know that arrow is going to be dead center. Then, do it some more. 
You get the point, right? When it is almost too much to bear, move back to 10 yards and do it all again... one arrow at a time. Do it at 10 yards until you're ready to take up golf... then, use a slightly smaller spot to aim at and do it all over again at 10 yards. Go from a 6" spot, to a 4" spot, then to a 2" spot. 

Repeat the process at 15 yards, a 6" spot, then a 4" spot, then a 2" spot. Same thing at 20 yards. Do not ever be in a hurry to move back! Take your time and make sure it is all working like a Swiss clock before you move back. If something doesn't feel right, move closer again. As always, it is very important to quit shooting when you start to loose your focus... that's when bad things happen. It's a good idea to begin and end each practice session at the hanging target with your eyes closed... shooting 10 arrows with your form foremost in mind.

From the time you first begin this program to when you finish at the 20 yard mark, it should have taken you at least 2 months ... longer would be better. If you rush it or cheat, you'll be hurting yourself and there's not going to be anyone around to correct you. You need to make this stick... a couple weeks won't do it. There is a reward at the end of all of this. It defies logic, really, but at some point in all of this learning process you will definitely know you are doing it right.... arrow after arrow will keep going dead center of the bull's-eye... even when you know the pin was not on the spot at the time your release triggered. Like some kind of Zen-master ninja-jedi... no kidding!

One word of warning.... once you begin this program, there can be no 5 spots, Vegas, 3D shoots, target practice with your buddies, hunting rabbits... nothing but this. Spend the 3rd month working out past 20 yards... and then you can go have fun!

You can do this. Take it one step at a time, follow it to the letter and don't cheat.

I hope this helps, Zane


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## Ray Ray

Well said Zane.
I had TP so bad, I would dump the release as soon as I reached full draw. I spent a winter shooting in my basement at 3 yards. I had to learn back tension & a shot sequence that I could follow. When the weather got nice I move outside to bridge what I learned. DO NOT rush the process, or you'll have to start over. I now shoot better that I ever have. I went thru basically what Zane is talking about.


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## aread

Do exactly what da white shoe posted. Don't skimp on anything. Take down the target, get close and re-learn to shoot. If in doubt, continue to blank bale until you can't do it wrong.

My TP wasn't as bad as Zane's, but it prevented me from shooting anything more than mediocre scores. I think that this made it more difficult to get over since I really wouldn't admit that it was TP. This summer I decided to get over it and shot a blank bale from March 27 until 2 weeks ago. Then I started the bridge. The time on the blank bale has made the bridge a lot easier. 

I kept in mind a statement from ron w "each practice arrow should be shot with all the seriousness of a tournament winning round". This really is one of the important concepts for anyone who wants to get better at archery. It isn't easy to maintain the discipline & focus to do this when you are shooting at a blank bale that's only 3 yards away, but it makes all the difference.

Somebody will probably post that all you need to do is send him money and let him whisper in your ear every night. But most serious archers don't buy it. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. The methods that we outline here are the tried and true and have been around for centuries.

Good luck, you can do it,
Allen


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## subconsciously

Superb advice above!

Remember, you are building a new habit. Not breaking an old one. Our brains are better served at making new paths, not breaking old ones. Put all your focus in building the new habit. Take your time and don't cheat. Neurological paths are built slowly. I fought it for 7 years and beat it in a month and a half. Wish I had started sooner. 

Few tips:

Stay off auto pilot- keep your mind focused on your skill set you are learning. 
Use visualization- it is a very important tool. 
improvement is about absorbing and applying new information, and the best source of information are the pro's. Watch them and learn. You-Tube!!
Take notes. Keep a log of your daily activity. 
Don't measure your practice with a clock, but with the amount of quality shots you shoot. 

Good luck.


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## Fury90flier

step up to the target...about 10 yards...take the sight off your bow and blank bale for a couple weeks. After 500 shots or so, move to 12 yards...another 500 or so shots...still no sights. Keep doing this til you get back to your normal distance--no sights...you'll stop your target panic.


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## AJ the TP Guru

Been there, done that.... actually, I was just about the OP's age when it first reared its ugly head, and indeed, it did force me to give up competitive archery.

The second time, some decades later, I knew how to fix it.... and it din't have anything to do with blank (or blind) baling. So yeah, there's a lot of disagreement about what the best approach is, and I'm not going to say one is wrong and another is right. 

What I do know is that I have talked with literally hundreds of archers who got bored with blank baling, or else said it simply didn't translate successfully in competition. Maybe they didn't use the right "bridge," or use it long enough, but guaranteed they did the very best they knew how to do, and remained frustrated. Moist of these guys are once again happy with their archery lives.
V
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## mike 66

where is Josey Whales when you need him ?? last time i saw him he was showing a elixir sales man just what he thinks....


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## Rugby

"One only sees what one looks for,
one only looks for what one knows."
Goethe


AJ has a money back guarantee. Where is the harm and why knock it....


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## Chopayne

Conflicting opinions ive seen on closing one eye or not. Does closing one eye really matter?


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## aread

Chopayne said:


> Conflicting opinions ive seen on closing one eye or not. Does closing one eye really matter?


Both eyes open is better, but some of us just can't do it. If you can, keep both eyes open. If not, don't sweat it.


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## Fury90flier

Chopayne said:


> Conflicting opinions ive seen on closing one eye or not. Does closing one eye really matter?


What shooting with both eyes open does for you is give you a wider field of view and depth perception (you have very little depth perception with one eye). On that one, you'll just have to see what works for you. For the people that it doesn't, I feel that they haven't spent enough time breaking the squinting habit...it takes 6 weeks to break a habit. If you try shooting with both eyes open, give yourself time to relearn how to see in that situation.


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## mike 66

aread said:


> Do exactly what da white shoe posted. Don't skimp on anything. Take down the target, get close and re-learn to shoot. If in doubt, continue to blank bale until you can't do it wrong.
> 
> My TP wasn't as bad as Zane's, but it prevented me from shooting anything more than mediocre scores. I think that this made it more difficult to get over since I really wouldn't admit that it was TP. This summer I decided to get over it and shot a blank bale from March 27 until 2 weeks ago. Then I started the bridge. The time on the blank bale has made the bridge a lot easier.
> 
> I kept in mind a statement from ron w "each practice arrow should be shot with all the seriousness of a tournament winning round". This really is one of the important concepts for anyone who wants to get better at archery. It isn't easy to maintain the discipline & focus to do this when you are shooting at a blank bale that's only 3 yards away, but it makes all the difference.
> 
> Somebody will probably post that all you need to do is send him money and let him whisper in your ear every night. But most serious archers don't buy it. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. The methods that we outline here are the tried and true and have been around for centuries.
> 
> Good luck, you can do it,
> Allen


this is why..... tried and TRUE and have been around for centuries, concepts given by the best coaches in the world that work.......if its worth doing its worth doing right


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## AJ the TP Guru

aread said:


> Somebody will probably post that all you need to do is send him money and let him whisper in your ear every night. But most *serious archers* don't buy it. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. The methods that we outline here are the tried and true and have been around for centuries.
> 
> Good luck, you can do it,
> Allen


No _serious arche_r, huh? (bold in above quote is my own)

What do you call a 5-time world champ?

What do you call a guy who has been on eight bowhunting trips to Africa with multiple trophies to show for it?

What do you call two state champs (Oregon and Texas)?

What do you call a 900-shooting Las Vegas champ?

What do you call a trad guy who had won a lot, but found himself in the depths of TP, and so spent thousands of dollars on personal instruction, but without transfer to tournament shooting?

And then there's the Ben Pearson staff guy whom you told some time back to do the usual - shoot blank bales for months on end. He declined. I made a personalized message for him recently which incorporated the specifics of his problem just as he had related them to me. He won a big regional tournament a few weeks back after having listened only two times to my message.

Are all these guys on my REVIEWS page? No, but some are. The others choose to retain their privacy. However, there are plenty of average archers there as well.

But wait! Sorry, I forgot . . . you're only a _serious archer_ if you're prepared to spend weeks and months blank baling (with the appropriate "bridges," of course).

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mike 66

are all these guys on my review page NO .................


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## aread

Not only am I prepared to spend months on a blank bale, I am in the process of doing it right now. From March 27 until about 2 weeks ago, I shot bland bale the way that Len Cardinale taught me to. Then I started a bridge. Most of the better tournement archers & coaches I've asked about it, told me that I should spend part of my practice time on the blank bale for the rest of the time I'm trying to win archery tournements.

Why does blank bale work? When humans perform a repetitive task, new physical pathways are created in the brain. The more the task it repeated exactly the same, the stronger the pathways become. This isn't the MD / Phd professional version, just the one that works for the slightly educated sorts like me. First you build the pathways (habits) on the bale, one part at a time. Then you take it to the bridge where the real work starts and you ingrain the good habits to the point where you can't do it wrong.

I just don't see how subliminal messages can help in the building of pathways in our brains. I've tried this technique with weight loss and I actually gained weight when I was listening to the tapes.

One of the top archers from the 60's, Shig Honda, wrote some great stuff on the mental game. One of the things he said was that to win, it helps to believe that you deserve to win. It's certainly not the only thing that matters, but it is one part of winning in any sport. Listening to subliminal messages is a shortcut and doesn't give an archer the feeling that he has done enough to deserve to win. As Al Henderson wrote, you have to be honest with yourself.

A few weeks back, you posted a bit of what you say our subliminal message. Paraphrasing, you said to draw to a spot off of the target then move your pin onto the target. This is wrong. I don't know what other bad information you are putting in your message. I only know that the one bit that I read was wrong.

Your method may work for some people, it may even work for many people some of the time. But I don't think that it will work for most archers who are suffering from actual target panic. As for the people you listed, I have no way of knowing if their problem was target panic or something else. I believe you when you list them and that they think that they have gotten help from your program, but neither you nor I have a means to do an objective study of their real long term results. From the little I read on the subject, the serious studies show that effectiveness is minimal and temporary. That's not what archers with target panic need.

Target panic is the bane of archery. On one hand it's really simple, the archer has a missing or out of sequence step in their shot sequence. On the other hand, it's a complicated problem with many faces. From the few posts of yours that I've read, I don't think that you really understand it. If I'm wrong about this please set me straight.

AJ, I don't want to do you or your business harm, but I also don't want you to do harm to archers with problems with target panic. I don't want them to waste money on unproven, shortcut methods that may do more harm in the long run. 

I just don't think that your methods pass the if-it-sounds-too-good-to-be-true... test.

With respect,
Allen


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## subconsciously

One would ask - Why should I have to do a physical excercise (blank baling) to fix a mental problem (TP). As I discussed in an earlier post it is easier to learn a good habit than it is to break an old one. It has been proven that a repetitve excersice will build the "myelin sheath" around the pathways from the brain. Everytime you do a rep, another layer of myelin is added. Over time these pathways become faster and faster. --Which can also be bad over time, as this can cause a plateau effect. Which is no nore than being complacent in your shot. 

I will not say that "subliminal" messages will work or that it will not. I dont know. If it can help someone then great!! I do know that the blank bale process when applied as it should be - works. To many archers will not go thru the steps and stick to it. Those that do stick to the process, enjoy shooting more than ever.

The myelin sheath cannot be undone -"Bad habits are hard to break" (ever heard that one). That is why a good habit it easier to build. The stronger the good habit, the more suprressed the bad habit.

I could go on but thats my .02 on this subject.


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## AJ the TP Guru

Mike and aread are both in bigtime need of a good reading comprehension course.


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## aread

AJ the TP Guru said:


> Mike and aread are both in bigtime need of a good reading comprehension course.


I guess so. I don't understand that comment. Care to explain?


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## AJ the TP Guru

aread - I searched several posts by me trying to find whatever it is you had misinterpreted, and could find nothing close. With that said, here is the exact text from one of my messages relating to covering the spot with the pin.

_You will begin the shooting process at full draw with your pin slightly above or below the spot from which you ultimately wish to release the arrow - it does not matter from which side you acquire the target. Then you will slowly adjust the pin's position until it minimally floats while covering the spot where you intend it to remain. 
_
Some guys tell me they only want to do it one or the other. For them I record a personalized message.

Ok, enough about what I did or did not say. I think I now understand why you are so adamant in your opposition to subliminal learning. Your quote from above:

_I've tried this technique with weight loss and I actually gained weight when I was listening to the tapes._

To me, that speaks volumes. On my site, there is a page called THIS TARGET PANIC CURE MAY NOT BE FOR YOU.

If that doesn't say that I don't want to hookwink anyone, then there is no use of continuing this conversation.

I have been doing similar messages for over 40 years, and my experience shows that about 2% of all subjects do not respond well (some say as high as 10%).

Perhaps you are one of that small minority between two and ten percent. *OR*, maybe you were listening to a lousy message. *OR*, maybe the person delivering that message was inept. Doesn't matter. You have fixed your opinion, and I have fixed mine.

Mike - the only reason I don't put you on "ignore" is that I want to know when you make another incredibly stupid and insulting comment like the one you made several months back which got you a warning. Another one, and I suspect AT management will take harsher steps. But feel free - AT will be better off for it.


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## aread

AJ the TP Guru said:


> ....._You will begin the shooting process at full draw with your pin slightly above or below the spot from which you ultimately wish to release the arrow_....


Yep, that's the one. It's far, far better to draw on the spot. Drawing off and then moving onto it, leads to added tension and less stability. I originally heard this from Larry Wise. Then subsequent conversations with and observations of some excellent archers and my own experience lead me to understand that it's much better to get on the spot as part of your draw to anchor. The general rule is that things that are set together tend to hold together. 

That is the only bit of your program that I've read. Since that's all that I have to go on, your program is giving out really bad advice on shooting a bow. I'm sure that other parts are better, but I don't see how it can help an archer.

Can you point to any objective studies that show that subliminal messages have more than minimal and temporary benefits? Everything I've read seems to say that it's only effective when it encouraged the subject to do something they wanted to do anyway or acted as a reminder. I don't see how it works for target panic. Simple visualized rehearsal would be at least as much effective. You claim a 98% success rate. How many of these have you actually followed up on. Or are you just basing that on the number of people that ask for a refund? 

The Coaches Corner forum is for actual coaches giving advice to archers who need help. In my opinion, you don't know enough about an archery shot to be posting advice here. The only thing you are doing is trying to make money out of archers who are desperate for help. I know that you've paid for the right to post your advertisements here, but I would prefer if you would leave the coaches corner to actual coaches.

JMHO,
Allen


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## AJ the TP Guru

If you were struggling with target panic, I would suggest you go to my site as there is almost nothing I could say here that I don't say there. But of course, that is not the case. You want to play "gotcha," and I'm not interested in playing that game.

As to the wording (above) in my message, I have found it works well for just about everyone. Even those who have me record a personalized message tend to want similar wording relating to coming on-spot. And yes, that includes all the pros I mentioned early on as satisfied users. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Rugby

Aread, in your opinion is there any other remedy to overcome TP other than blank bale shooting?


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## aread

Rugby said:


> Aread, in your opinion is there any other remedy to overcome TP other than blank bale shooting?


No, not a permanent means to control it. That's not just my opinion. It's the opinion of people with far more experience and knowledge than me. And it's not just blank bale. That's just the first part. The bridge is as important as the bale. 

There are variations on the program, such as GRIV's 10 yard game, but it's all about reprogramming your shot sequence and building new habits. Find a distance where you can execute a good shot without TP and gradually build on that success. For most the distance is the blank bale. For others it may be somewhere between 3 & 10 yards.

Allen


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## Rugby

Thanks for the reply. TP is something which afflicts many. I like to find out what people/coaches do to rid this from others.

Blank bale and bridge would appear to be one combined method some use, AJ has another. Some say using a BT release is the answer.

Blank bale and bridge takes time to complete it and from what it appears easy to either rush it or get lost in it for some doing it alone. AJ has a solution which appears to work (I have no knowledge of his product but accept his word it does).

Are there different forms of TP? Different causes my require a different solutions?

I would be interested in what people thought.


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## Ray Ray

Rugby, When I was getting rid of TP. I did the blank bail & bridge, While learning to shoot with BT. You can shoot any release with BT. When I did it, I found it difficult to learn with my old release. I did go to a hinge & then to a tension release. 
Now I only shoot the a hinge & a thumb release with BT.I shoot a lot better now, than I ever did when I was a puncher & command shooter.


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## Ray Ray

Rugby said:


> Are there different forms of TP?
> Yes, I feel there different types. They all stem from the same cause, a lack of a proper shot sequence or not believing in your shot sequence.
> 
> Different causes my require a different solutions?
> I feel they all can be solved with a proper shot sequence that is subconscious(thus the blank bail) & believing in it (thus the bridge) This with BT allows you to do your shot sequence subconsciously & aim with your conscious mind. (thus leading to better shooting)
> 
> These are my opinions. I went thru it & they work.
> 
> I would be interested in what people thought.


Ray Ray


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## da white shoe

Rugby said:


> Thanks for the reply. TP is something which afflicts many. I like to find out what people/coaches do to rid this from others.
> 
> Blank bale and bridge would appear to be one combined method some use, AJ has another. Some say using a BT release is the answer.
> 
> Blank bale and bridge takes time to complete it and from what it appears easy to either rush it or get lost in it for some doing it alone. AJ has a solution which appears to work (I have no knowledge of his product but accept his word it does).
> 
> Are there different forms of TP? Different causes my require a different solutions?
> 
> I would be interested in what people thought.




Sure, of course there are different forms and degrees of target panic and there are certainly different causes.

If the ONLY problem is trigger punching, then a BT release would completely solve the problem.
That's almost never the case though. Punching is usually only a symptom of a faulty aiming process.

Some who are afflicted, as it was in my case... are doing just about everything wrong. I seriously doubt that a little voice whispering in my ear would have changed anything I was doing.
Something I haven't mentioned before... the day I went down and bought a new bow that actually fit correctly... I still had *years* left in my fight with TP.
If someone would have walked up to me at that time and handed me a sheet of paper with the program I have outlined in this thread written on it... I would have only had months left in my fight.

OK, that said... some people are doing everything right. Perfect draw length, peep height, back tension, form, surprise release, aiming and follow through... and they still have a problem!
The truth is, they are not really doing everything right. They are lacking in one or more of these areas and they don't know it. 
Now, if that one thing happens to be purely mental... well, who knows. A little voice may actually help. Or, it may not. I don't know.
I would think that it would depend on what type of individual we're talking about and what his problem actually was.
Some people are really bad at self-diagnosis... some are very good at it. 

The problem I see arising... what if it's more than one thing causing the target panic? 
When you combine a slight mental breakdown in concentration with a consistent glitch in form, you could be chasing your tail for a long time just listening to a voice.


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## [email protected]

My apologies on aj s ignorance and insulting knowledgeable coaches. A read, mike do not take offense to stupidity. Aj id love to hear your opinion on len cardinale who knowledge is unsurpassed on the archery shot.sell the snake oil somewhere else these guys help people with proven methods and hard work.


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## mike 66

aread said:


> yep, that's the one. It's far, far better to draw on the spot. Drawing off and then moving onto it, leads to added tension and less stability. I originally heard this from larry wise. Then subsequent conversations with and observations of some excellent archers and my own experience lead me to understand that it's much better to get on the spot as part of your draw to anchor. The general rule is that things that are set together tend to hold together.
> 
> That is the only bit of your program that i've read. Since that's all that i have to go on, your program is giving out really bad advice on shooting a bow. I'm sure that other parts are better, but i don't see how it can help an archer.
> 
> Can you point to any objective studies that show that subliminal messages have more than minimal and temporary benefits? Everything i've read seems to say that it's only effective when it encouraged the subject to do something they wanted to do anyway or acted as a reminder. I don't see how it works for target panic. Simple visualized rehearsal would be at least as much effective. You claim a 98% success rate. How many of these have you actually followed up on. Or are you just basing that on the number of people that ask for a refund?
> 
> The coaches corner forum is for actual coaches giving advice to archers who need help. In my opinion, you don't know enough about an archery shot to be posting advice here. The only thing you are doing is trying to make money out of archers who are desperate for help. I know that you've paid for the right to post your advertisements here, but i would prefer if you would leave the coaches corner to actual coaches.
> 
> Jmho, quote......the coaches corner forum is for actual coaches giving advice to archers who need help . In my opinion you don t know enough about an archery shot to be posting advice here. The only thing you are doing is trying to make money out of archers who are desperate for help. I know that you paid for the right to post your advertisements here, but i would prefer if you would leave the coaches corner to actual coaches...
> Allen


:roflmao:


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## Rugby

Hi da white shoe,

Thanks for the reply.

I have digested your post and have summarised what you have said re the causes of TP

1)	Trigger punching on its own
2)	A faulty aiming process which trigger punching is usually only a symptom of
3)	Being Over bowed
4)	DL wrong
5)	Peep height wrong
6)	Having a bow perfectly fitted will not cure TP
7)	A mental problem
8)	A combination of the above, (_some people are doing everything right. Perfect draw length, peep height, back tension, form, surprise release, aiming and follow through... and they still have a problem!)_ 

Would you be able to answer a couple of things for me to help me understand the causes and fixes/cures for them? 

What is a faulty aiming process?
What are the reasons which make people punch?

Can a cause and fix for TP be self-diagnosed?

How often is it more than one thing which causes TP? (_The problem I see arising... what if it's more than one thing causing the target panic?)_
Is this common? (_When you combine a slight mental breakdown in concentration with a consistent glitch in form_).

From experience what are the mental glitches?

I am a little confused as 3,4 and 5 can cause TP but fixing them doesn’t fix TP. Am I wrong to include 3,4 and 5 in the list of causes?

Many thanks.


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## ron w

you guys have to understand....it is NOT "blank baling" that cures target panic. blank baling is just the tool that allows you to learn the release process that you can apply to the 10yard baling, that builds and reinforces the "bridge", or "mental link" that the release process travels on, that cures target panic. the problem is NOT in the release process and Not in the aiming process, but in that link or bridge, between aiming and the decision...either conscious or sub conscious to release the arrow, that target panic resides. 
blind baling teaches your shot execution to run the release process with out conscious thought...that moves the generation of the release process into the area of your brain that runs the most reliably...your sub conscious brain activity....because it is there that certain muscular commands are given in the most reliably repeatable form of communication with your muscles. that form of communication does exactly the same thing time after time,....with no question about whether it should or shouldn't. once the message is in that arena, the shot goes on default, so that you can now apply that default message to the picture of consciously seeing the sights aligned with the X-ring, or bulls eye. then as a control, youteach your conscious aiming process to let down on anything that is not perfect in the sight picture, so that the default message doesn't fire an arrow that isn't going to go where it should. 
the idea, is that it takes the decision to fire, off the release process's shoulders and puts it squarely on the conscious sight picture's shoulders.....where you can logically justify an aborted shot execution. this allows the shot process to run with the confusion of, "why didn't the release process run as it should" and preserves that confidence and mental sequence in your release process that "blind baling" developed. 
doing one without the other, will not cure Target panic.....if you offer a dog a treat, and then take it away, when he comes to get it, he will eventually learn not to come when you offer the treat. target panic, is that dog learning to not come when you offer the treat because he has learned that he might not get it anyways. the 10 yard shooting, is the same as, after the dog learns to come on the offer of a treat, if he comes, he will most assuredly get that treat. and learns to come faithfully, happily wagging his tail. 
the dog's faithfully coming, happily waging his tail, is the same as your shot execution running with what seems like no effort.


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## blackxpress

This is great stuff! Very helpful. I recently developed a case of TP and it's been driving me nuts. My main problem is rushing the shot. I get to full draw, get my anchor points and let it fly before I get my pin steady on the target. It's maddening. I do have a coach and his cure goes along these same lines. He has me trying to turn myself into a robot (he doesn't call it blind bailing but it's essentially the same thing) by shooting a bag target at 10 feet without actually trying to aim. I'm only concentrating on my anchor points and release. The idea is to get the anchor points and release hammered into muscle memory so that all I have to think about consciously is the aiming process. I am making some progress but boy is it ever slow going. Once I back up and actually start aiming at a target if I start rushing I have to move back to 10 feet and start all over. I don't know if there's another cure but somehow I doubt it. My problem is obviously mental but it's very difficult to separate the mental part from the mechanical part without lots and lots of repetition. 

Something happened yesterday that illustrates this. I was out on the bag targets and was struggling. My coach happened along and was watching me and he handed me an arrow and told me to take a shot while holding that arrow between my knees. Seemed pretty weird to me but at this point I'll try anything. I did what he said and, VOILA! Perfect 20 yard shot. I guess the reason was that my mind was so preoccupied with not dropping that arrow and trying to shoot without losing my balance that I executed the shot on auto pilot. What that tells me is that I need to spend a whole lot more time at 10 feet so that when I get back to 20 yards and beyond I can do the same thing without having to hold an arrow between my knees. In other words, I'm over thinking everything and my brain is getting in my way. The only way I can see to overcome it is to take the anchor and release process completely out of my conscious mind so that they run automatically. I wish there was some kind of post-hypnotic suggestion that would speed up this process but, frankly, I doubt it.


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## aread

Ron's got it right, da white shoe has it right & blackexpress, your coach has it right.

The goal of bale & bridge is to get to the point where you are free to immerse in aiming without giving your execution any conscious thought. 

You are building habits. It only seems like good habits take months and thousand of arrows and bad habits only take 3 arrows to ingrain.  

To be free to aim, you have to trust every part of your execution to run without conscious attention. This is not an easy chore. It takes a lot of repetition. Then when you think you have it, you add a little pressure by putting up a target at very close range. If that works out ok and you never let your conscious mind think about execution, even for a fraction of a second, you add a little more pressure by increasing the distance. If any arrow is "less than" it should be, you've just found out what part of your shot that you don't trust & you should go back to the bale to build trust in the part of the shot that failed. Len told me that he had seen only two archers run an honest bridge to 20 yards without having to go back to the bale. That's out of several thousand archers that he coached over the years. 

The bale just gets you to calm down and re-build your shot sequence. It's the bridge where the hard work takes place. Time on the bale is not wasted, but without the bridge, you aren't getting the full benefit.

Note: you don't have to have target panic to use the bale & bridge. You can use it to make improvements to your form. 

Allen


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## BOWjunky45

my TP was not as bad but it was still a form of it i was having trouble bringing my pin up to the target i talked to Dan McCarthy on fb and he suggested a hinge style release switched to a tru ball ht 3 with no click and within a week my TP was gone and my scores and groups got higher and tighter!!! hope this helps


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## da white shoe

Rugby said:


> Hi da white shoe,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I have digested your post and have summarised what you have said re the causes of TP
> 
> 1)	Trigger punching on its own
> 2)	A faulty aiming process which trigger punching is usually only a symptom of
> 3)	Being Over bowed
> 4)	DL wrong
> 5)	Peep height wrong
> 6)	Having a bow perfectly fitted will not cure TP
> 7)	A mental problem
> 8)	A combination of the above, (_some people are doing everything right. Perfect draw length, peep height, back tension, form, surprise release, aiming and follow through... and they still have a problem!)_
> 
> Would you be able to answer a couple of things for me to help me understand the causes and fixes/cures for them?
> 
> What is a faulty aiming process?
> What are the reasons which make people punch?
> 
> Can a cause and fix for TP be self-diagnosed?
> 
> How often is it more than one thing which causes TP? (_The problem I see arising... what if it's more than one thing causing the target panic?)_
> Is this common? (_When you combine a slight mental breakdown in concentration with a consistent glitch in form_).
> 
> From experience what are the mental glitches?
> 
> I am a little confused as 3,4 and 5 can cause TP but fixing them doesn’t fix TP. Am I wrong to include 3,4 and 5 in the list of causes?
> 
> Many thanks.


Just so we're clear on this... target panic is *always *a mental problem. That is why even the person with perfect form and the perfect fitting bow can still have a bad case of TP.
Correcting flaws in form *might* help the mental aspect of some ones shooting... only because a form flaw leads to inconsistency and inconsistency leads to sagging confidence. 
The same can be said of correcting an ill-fitting bow. Nothing will boost confidence like a sight pin that is barely even moving.
Doubt is target panics friend.

Trigger punching is rarely the root cause of TP... and a person that's punching doesn't automatically have TP. Some people can shoot quite well... purposely punching the trigger. 
Trigger punching is normally a warning sign of impending TP... but, usually this is only because the shooter that's punching is more than likely using a faulty aiming process.
One such aiming method is when you try to time the release of the arrow to the moment the pin moves across the spot you want to hit. 
You can't aim that way without dividing your attention and focus between the pin and the spot. 
The pin moves away from the spot and you move it back toward the spot... but you cannot make it hold still completely. This causes more and more tension, stress and, eventually... panic.
You try to trigger the release as fast as you can while the pin is crossing the spot, which leads to flinching and rushing the shot.
You change the way you aim... purposely moving the pin... either up to the spot or lowering it down to the spot... thinking it'll make it easier to time the shot.
That helps for a short while, but then everything gets even worse than it was before. Soon, you're triggering the shot before the pin even gets to the target.
There are other variations of this, but suffice it to say that focusing on the pin is a bad idea. Timing the shot is a bad idea. Dividing your focus is a bad idea. Thoughts drifting during the aiming process is very bad.

It is possible to self-diagnose and self-treat some forms of TP. The reason I know this is... I did it. I did it with no help what so ever. It took years to fix. Probably would have took months or even weeks if I had had help. 

In most cases, there is usually more than one symptom of TP occurring by the time the person realizes there is a problem. The first problem brings on the second one and it quickly snow-balls.
That doesn't mean that there are multiple causes. It only takes one thing to push the snow-ball down the hill. 
The trouble is... even if you correct the one and only *cause*, you're still left with correcting all the *symptoms* that have popped up.

Mental glitches or break-downs are usually related to lack of focus. 
Lack of focus is usually brought on by boredom... when you're talking about accomplished, proven shooters. 
With just your average bowhunter guy, loss of focus probably results from fear... some part of his shot that he doesn't trust.

It's possible that correcting 3, 4 or 5 could fix TP. 
It's just that... it might not.
Even if 3, 4 or 5 was the root cause of the TP in the first place, there may still be symptoms that have to be overcome... something that was brought about by the original 3, 4 or 5.


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## Rugby

Thank you for taking the time to reply da white shoe. Very much appreciated


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## mike 66

Easttnhunter01 said:


> I'm new to the forum but I've been shootin bows since I was 12 an I'm 21 now so 9 years. The past 3 years I've been fighting target panic and at this point I don't think it could get any worse I've never been a pro but I used to always have a even score at the bow range for the last few years I've got worse I'm dropping 30 and 40 points now I don't really know what started it but its gettin really old I'm almost ready to quit all together im currently shooting a Scott silver horn release. Any body that has any input it will be greatly appricated. Thanks


i see your in e.tennessee i will be glad to invite you here im just outside st .louis mo i will offer you a FREE T.P program and free 2 hours of help ....please let me know when -if your coming so i can fit you in my program..you can PM me anytime.... coach mike


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## Chopayne

Fury90flier said:


> What shooting with both eyes open does for you is give you a wider field of view and depth perception (you have very little depth perception with one eye). On that one, you'll just have to see what works for you. For the people that it doesn't, I feel that they haven't spent enough time breaking the squinting habit...it takes 6 weeks to break a habit. If you try shooting with both eyes open, give yourself time to relearn how to see in that situation.


This depth perception is what doesnt make sense to me. Before you've pulled up your bow, you should have ranged it, that thing isn't moving, why do you need depth perception?


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## da white shoe

Chopayne said:


> This depth perception is what doesnt make sense to me. Before you've pulled up your bow, you should have ranged it, that thing isn't moving, why do you need depth perception?


Speaking for myself, keeping both eyes open allows me to totally focus on the exact spot I want to hit... while the pin appears as a halo-graphic image over the top of the spot.
In other words, I can look right through the pin to the spot I'm aiming at.
With one eye closed, the pin is going to block out whatever part of the target it is on.
This doesn't sound like a big deal, but it can lead to target panic issues.


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## ron w

shooting with both eyes open superposes the view of you dominent eye's alignment with the pin and target against the real life view of the entire target, it is that bias of views that keeps your dominant eye in focus with the pin's alignment as the pin floats. if you look aim with one eye, you are more apt to turn your focus on the pin and your aiming eye then sees only a stationary object,...the pin...and doesn't realize it's floating around in or out of the bull's eye. you then switch your focus to the target, and your aiming eye has no clue where the pin is. this goes back and force and eventually, you hammer the release.....guess what happens........
that is what creates the tension that distracts your aiming process that people talk about that creates target panic.


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## Papagallos

Great thread. I have a lot to learn.


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## Old Man Archer

Gentlemen, I very rarely post on these threads for several reasons 1) not everyone that you have diagnosed with T/P actually had T/P many have just had poor training and bad habits. 2) Most will not stick with a long drawn out blank baling regimen without hands on support so the big super long post that looks and is somewhat knowledgable is overwhelming to many who read it and will make the decision to quit other than go through that much work and or frustration. Fact is your cure has caused archers to quit unnecessarily . 3) All the Top or Great coaches have their own variation of different fixes for differing problems , none of you offer your version only one of theirs. 4) They in other words the great coaches always keep an open mind when listening to new techniques that they might be able to employ to fix an inflicted archer. While most of the time the 3-4 of you will insult and say it is only your way that is the right way. I'm not trying to insult any of you but imploring that you keep a more open mind , I may never try or send anyone to see AJ but it doesn't mean it may not work heck each one of you has been bombarded with subliminal suggestions every time you turn on your TV. Who knows what all you have bought because of it. Have any of you tried AJ's way? I will say this his way can be no riskier than trying to diagnose an archers problem on an archery forum without seeing the archer in person to actually see what is going on. I have helped many who came on here and self diagnosed or were told by someone on here that they had target panic or other maladies and the cure wasn't working for them . The cure doesn't work if it's a different problem. I hope I haven't upset anyone because that wasn't the purpose of this post you should all broaden your coaching abilities by incorporating more of your own thoughts and techniques into the mix. The ones that you all quote did just that as they were becoming who they are do you think they found the best answer for all the problems ,,,, Maybe one of you will come up with a better cure or fix. This is just my 2 cents on this and I really don't care if you like it , agree with it or not. OMA


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## Old Man Archer

Oh and when it comes to shooting with both eyes open , while it may be good for hunting it will not always work well when shooting targets with a 6 or 8X scope most of the time not. It also is not a great suggestion with far sighted person that has an astigmatism or any one who has 1 eye that either looks up or down which when looking through a peep becomes exaggerated and they see 2 images talk about creating T/P. You really need to ask questions before giving your advice know who you are talking to and what possible issues they may have. If you are going to teach , instruct or coach you can't give pat answers because there are no pat answers. While shooting with both eyes may be preferable to some it is not to others. I myself find it very unnerving since I have 1 eye that looks up and 1 that looks down. I can shoot with both eyes open when hunting but I generally don't it is easier to concentrate on 1 animal than 2 and then try to make your mind believe it does not see the 2nd one. Sorry for my interruptions I will shut up and leave now.


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## Rugby

Excellent contribution OMA, couldn't agree more.


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## ron w

there are always exceptions......
it is generally agreed by any shooting sports "authority", or coach of upper level that both eyes open is best, for anyone with more or less normal vision, regardless of lens power. "normal vision" includes anyone with astigmatism , near sightedness, or far sightedness. 
what both eyes open does is reduce the tendency to focus on the pin or dot. it does still require a bit of training, but once established, and your eyes are used to the superposed picture, it can only benefit your aiming. it really has nothing at all to do with depth perception. during aiming with both eyes open, you brain functions much the same as a piano player playing two separate tunes on either end of the key board.


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## da white shoe

I know very well that self diagnosis is not for everyone. A forum-type platform can only go so far... in diagnosis or treatment.
Many times in the past, I have recommended "one on one" coaching rather than a do-it-yourself approach.

I don't believe I ever said my "super long post" is the only way... or that it will cure everyone... no matter what.
My post was meant to be used as a roadmap for those that have the discipline for it. 

I don't believe I ever said that AJ's way would be a waste of time for everyone.
What I* did *do is lay out, for everyone to see... what my problems were and what I did to fix it.
Yes, some are overwhelmed by such a long post. However, some are *not* overwhelmed by it. It simply has to be taken one step at a time.
I have dozens of PMs from people who have been helped by my post... and I didn't charge them a dime for it either. Ha!

What I do know for sure is... *my TP *has been gone, without a trace... for 15 years. I simply do not have *any* problems with it anymore.


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## aread

OMA,
I wish that AJ's subliminal technique worked. It would save me a lot of time and frustration. Unfortunately, it's something that has been thoroughly studied and shown to be of little or no benefit. It's been around for several decades, so it's not some new revolutionary idea that hasn't been given a chance. 

On the other hand, blank bale & bridge has been around for hundreds of years and is a proven technique. I read a translation of a Chinese archery master from 600+years ago. He was ranting about archers not spending enough time on the bale before running to the target to see the results. His sentiments were exactly the same as modern coaches who are frustrated by the lack of patience and discipline required to control target panic and improve scores. 

If an archer becomes frustrated at the time & discipline required to control TP, then he needs a coach to explain the reasons why and provide encouragement. We've all noted that participants in almost every other sport go to coaches to learn the sport, but archers think that they don't need coaches. Somehow they can be good without learning the basics of the sport.

If I thought that there was even the slightest chance that AJ's method would work, he would have had my money long ago. Unfortunately, real improvement takes effort and discipline. It can't be learned by someone whispering into your ear every night at bedtime. 

Allen


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## Rugby

I like to keep an open mind to my knowledge base and while when I coach or work on a bow I have definite views, these do not stop me adopting new methods of doing both or adding to both.

I have been interested in the blank bale/bridge concept for some time and have been interested to see how it is and has been applied to archers to improve their shooting. Blank bale is not something I teach as I feel it is onerous and for the most part the person who subjects themselves to months of shooting at nothing do not appear to be told the whole picture in regard to what blank bale/bridge is looking to achieve in regard to their issues around shooting. 

To me the issues around someone’s shooting should determine the process required to get them back on track. I have asked about the various forms of TP out there and what causes them on the forum and some have been kind enough to reply. From this and my own experience I see two causes of TP. The first is anxiety around success, hitting the target and the pressure of having to do this again and again. The second and the one we see the most of; is using the sight pin as the trigger. 

The first one I can see how the blank bale and bridge could help build confidence and help the shooter overcome their anxiety. The second one, where most afflicted with it are either unable to raise their bow arm to place the pin onto the target or with punch the heck out of their trigger as their sight pin races past the target (up or down) can be fixed in as little as a few minutes. No need to sentence someone to months of banality when they can get back on track in a few coaching sessions.

In this forum all I keep reading when someone has a TP issue is they should blank bale and bridge. It is a solution but not the only one and perhaps not the appropriate one for the person asking. It is hard to diagnose from a question on a forum and I realise everyone is just trying to help. I do however find it a bit annoying when AJ gets hammered by those who only seem to have only one solution to the TP issue. Just because you haven’t used a technique should not allow it to be dismissed. Archery is a mind game and perhaps AJ has found a way to assist the mind in overcoming a form of TP. 

I teach my staff to look at their archery knowledge as never being complete, always evolving, always looking for better ways to tune bows and teach people how to shoot. The policy in the shop is we will discard any method of doing something previously used if a better method is found. 

Many on this forum may have a lot more coaching experience and success than me. I wish to learn as much as possible about coaching techniques and methods. A new and better way to teach the same thing is invaluable. I don’t wish to offend anyone but there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## mike 66

im NOT scared here it is the post you loved the most.


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## ron w

rugby, 
different ways to "teach" is completely different than "teaching" the wrong thing.....

it has long been established that the blank or blind bale and bridging at 10 yards is the most effective way to cure TP. the actions of doing these two routines are the "facts" that fix the problem. the reason the problem arose is actually a moot point, once TP has infiltrated the shot execution. applying those "facts" is what matters and everyone needs to learn those same "facts" in order to overcome TP. it is the way our brain operates that these "facts" need to be consistent, because everybody's brain processes these facts the same way. the cause of the panic doesn't matter, once there.... it is there... and it needs to be taught these "facts', to make it go away. because everybody's brain works the same way, there are no shortcuts and the material needed to fix the problem is the same for everybody.
if a history teacher finds a different way to present some facts to his students, it's still the same facts that the kids need to learn. if he changes those facts in order to make the kids learn easier, he taught the wrong material, he didn't change the way the kids learned and the kids didn't learn the right material. they aren't "smarter, they just know something different and the TP is only subdued, or distracted, only to return later.


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## Rugby

Hi ron w,

The majority of those with TP who I see have developed it by using their sight pin placement/position as the signal to release the arrow. They punch that trigger when the pin is on the target and after a while they cannot put their pin on the target. 

Would you also agree that once you have developed TP you will always have it if you continue to use your pin as the trigger?
The fix for this is to stop them from using the pin as their trigger and have their shots go off by them shooting the bow, a process rather than visually. Would you not agree? 

How this is done I suspect where the “blank balers” and I disagree. I have no doubt that the blank bale methods works for many as there are numerous people on AT who have used it successfully.

What I see blank baling doing is teaching the shooter to use the process of shooting the bow without the interference the sight brings to their shooting process. What I don’t see though is the shooter understanding what their problem actually is. This is highlighted with the bridge portion which has the shooter going back to the blank bale if there is a reoccurrence of their TP while shooting at a target.

As we all shoot at targets I see the lack of a target an issue when blank baling for weeks if not months. The target is why we shoot, it is a good thing. I do see the need not to have one up all of the time when a shooter is focussing on the process but I will look to introduce one as soon as possible.

My system of teaching a shooter to forget about the pin and focus on shooting the bow has worked well. Some have been fixed in one 30 minute session, others have taken much longer. It just depends when you get them.

I tell shooters the “facts”, if you use the pin as a trigger you will more than likely get TP, if you shoot a process you won’t. 
I do not believe I am changing the facts to “teach” better rather I give the “facts” to the shooter and we work together from there to get them shooting trouble free. 

At the end of the day the result is hopefully the same no matter which method is used. Mine however is a lot quicker and far less than mundane.


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## ron w

the whole point is that, "blank baling", or "blind bailing",.... by itself,..... will do nothing for target panic. and anyone who "teaches" that , as the cure, is that teacher,.... "teaching the wrong facts". yes, you learn something, but it's not what should have been taught, as a "cure" for target panic. TP is not cured at the blind or blank bale.....it is cured at the 10 yard bale and blind or blank baling is the tool that teaches what is needed, so that the 10 yard baling can cure TP.
it is the same misunderstanding that is so common with the idea that switching to a "hinge" will cure target panic. the use of a hinge itself will do nothing for target panic. it is only that learning the proper use of a hinge is the same tool, or facts that need to be taught, so that the 10 yard baling can teach the facts that are needed to cure target panic. target panic doesn't care what release you are using and it can be cured with any release you use because it isn't at the release end of the shot that target panic develops. it is in the "bridge, or the communication" between your aiming process and your release process that target panic resides. you can have a good aiming process and a good release process and still get panic because they haven't learned to communicate dependably and clearly. it is the proper use of 10 yard baling that teaches this. and to be taught correctly, both the release process and the aiming process need to be running properly......it is a "process problem", not an equipment problem...and contingent on the clear and dependable communication going on in your head when the shot is being executed.


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## ron w

Rugby said:


> Hi ron w,
> 
> The majority of those with TP who I see have developed it by using their sight pin placement/position as the signal to release the arrow. They punch that trigger when the pin is on the target and after a while they cannot put their pin on the target.
> 
> Would you also agree that once you have developed TP you will always have it if you continue to use your pin as the trigger?
> The fix for this is to stop them from using the pin as their trigger and have their shots go off by them shooting the bow, a process rather than visually. Would you not agree?
> 
> How this is done I suspect where the “blank balers” and I disagree. I have no doubt that the blank bale methods works for many as there are numerous people on AT who have used it successfully.
> 
> What I see blank baling doing is teaching the shooter to use the process of shooting the bow without the interference the sight brings to their shooting process. What I don’t see though is the shooter understanding what their problem actually is. This is highlighted with the bridge portion which has the shooter going back to the blank bale if there is a reoccurrence of their TP while shooting at a target.
> 
> As we all shoot at targets I see the lack of a target an issue when blank baling for weeks if not months. The target is why we shoot, it is a good thing. I do see the need not to have one up all of the time when a shooter is focussing on the process but I will look to introduce one as soon as possible.
> 
> My system of teaching a shooter to forget about the pin and focus on shooting the bow has worked well. Some have been fixed in one 30 minute session, others have taken much longer. It just depends when you get them.
> 
> I tell shooters the “facts”, if you use the pin as a trigger you will more than likely get TP, if you shoot a process you won’t.
> I do not believe I am changing the facts to “teach” better rather I give the “facts” to the shooter and we work together from there to get them shooting trouble free.
> 
> At the end of the day the result is hopefully the same no matter which method is used. Mine however is a lot quicker and far less than mundane.


 exactly....my post following yours was being typed as you posted, not intended to be a reply to your post, but there are elements in it, that are in reference to your post.
yes the idea that the bullseye is a good thing, is exactly what the 10 yard baling teaches.....exactly. and it must be understood by the shot process that , that "good thing" is the reason a good shot execution should be rewarded with an "X", or an arrow to whatever you happen to be aiming at. 
at the 10 yard bale, the x-ring is large and easy to stay in, so the shot process calmly learns that is what it is supposed to do, and the blind or blank baling teaches the release process to run by itself, as it realizes the aiming process is floating calmly in that big x-ring. ...Pavolog's dog at work here....the shot process learns that a good float will run a smooth release execution and reward it with an X. but the release process has to run by itself, just as pavolog's dog had to learn to ring the bell, because our capacity to run both at the same time is limited.... we can't aim sub-consciously, it is a conscious process, but we can run the release sub-consciously, just the same as we can find our cake hole without consciously telling our hand where it is. so the blind or blank baling only teaches our release process to run by itself.....the necessary part, or "facts", our shot process needs to learn what it does at the 10 yard bale.
if done correctly, each element becomes a counter-supporting process that strengthens the shot process to the point that target panic is overcome, but the procedure has to be done in the right sequence with the correct facts taught at the right time....ie, no shortcuts.


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## mike 66

ron w said:


> the whole point is that, "blank baling", or "blind bailing",.... by itself,..... will do nothing for target panic. and anyone who "teaches" that , as the cure, is that teacher,.... "teaching the wrong facts". yes, you learn something, but it's not what should have been taught, as a "cure" for target panic. TP is not cured at the blind or blank bale.....it is cured at the 10 yard bale and blind or blank baling is the tool that teaches what is needed, so that the 10 yard baling can cure TP.
> it is the same misunderstanding that is so common with the idea that switching to a "hinge" will cure target panic. the use of a hinge itself will do nothing for target panic. it is only that learning the proper use of a hinge is the same tool, or facts that need to be taught, so that the 10 yard baling can teach the facts that are needed to cure target panic. target panic doesn't care what release you are using and it can be cured with any release you use because it isn't at the release end of the shot that target panic develops. it is in the "bridge, or the communication" between your aiming process and your release process that target panic resides. you can have a good aiming process and a good release process and still get panic because they haven't learned to communicate dependably and clearly. it is the proper use of 10 yard baling that teaches this. and to be taught correctly, both the release process and the aiming process need to be running properly......it is a "process problem", not an equipment problem...and contingent on the clear and dependable communication going on in your head when the shot is being executed.


very well said ron. w............. nice job


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## ron w

this small...if you can call it that....area of archery has become my favorite subject to discuss...I think mainly because there is so much misunderstanding and general lack of understanding about it. I was lucky when 40 years ago, to be taught about it, by a guy that really understood how it worked. and then several years ago, when some of the biggest names in target archery were regular visitors on here and I started back into the sport, I was again fortunate to get some good refreshers on the subject. I feel, that because of these two circumstances, I have a good grasp of the "evil demon" and thoroughly enjoy forwarding what I know.
as I get older, I am finding that my knowledge in certain areas of equipment, hasn't kept pace with the changes that are present these days, but this area, has and will remain the same as long as people pull a bow string. 
thanks for the compliment!


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## mike 66

dont feel bad ron i quit trying to keep up with all the new stuff a few years ago. i wish i had a dollar for every time i heard.... just get a hinge it will cure you. or just stay on the bale till it goes away... it dont work like that... its nice to see a guy who understands it and how works and can relate so well on paper .once again awesome post .


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## aread

Rugby, I agree with much of what you posted. Pin-on-target as a trigger to release is a sure recipe for TP. And Ron is right, blank bale will never cure TP by itself.

The purpose of the bale is to develop trust in each & every part of your shot. Then the bridge is used to test and confirm this trust.  Going from the bale to a large close up target is a baby step on the bridge. Another baby step is each time you back up an extra yard or two or reduce the size of your target. Pretty soon the baby steps add up to shooting full distance. It sounds easy, but it's not. It takes a lot of discipline to stick to this regimen. And even more to go back to the bale when you find a part of your shot that you don't trust completely.

It's all about developing good habits and reinforcing those habits. TP is a learned habit. Controlling it depends on developing new habits. The guys who can get over it in 30 minutes are very strong willed and disciplined individuals. More power to them for controlling their TP impulses. 

I think we are mostly on the same page on this with relatively minor differences in our approach.


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## ron w

I think allot of the problem is that guys that shoot only occasionally, start shooting and discover they have TP, the find out they have to get a little more involved in archery to get rid of it and don't want to other putting in the effort, so they continue shooting to the point that they get discouraed by the hard time they're having and quit. 
the longer you go with TP in the way, the harder it will be to permanently eliminate. you have to jump on the fix, as soon as you question whether you might have it or not. that's the reason all the pros do a regular maintenance 10 yard shooting regimen. it keeps even that question away.


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## subconsciously

I had TP for seven years. Fixed it in a month. Blank bale and bridging. The biggest reason shooters get TP is they are not taught correct form and process from the get go. Archers must be trained in process, not outcome. We are all naturally outcome oriented. The same with golf and a lot of other sports. Consistent process = consistent results. You don't have to do it perfect, just them same every time. 

.02


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## ron w

very true, and I think that point is the reason I've never had much problem with TP and why it is that I understand the process as well as I do. I was taught "proper back tension and the hinge release" from the very first arrow I shot with a compound some 40 years ago, by one of the country's top shooters at the time.....I was extremely luck, because the fellow just came up to me out of the blue and took me under his wing, after seeing me purchase a complete target rig at the shop I was in....right place - right time. I seriously don't know any other way to shoot a bow!
it can be fixed in a reasonable amount of time, it's all about the shooters' attitude and the order in which the process is taught. I have always thought that a little time spent understanding the... "why".... about the.... "right process".... goes a long way in shortening the learning time. that's where I try to concentrate my posts about the issue. 
yep, golf and tennis, another two that is all about the process and "literally seeing the ball come off the club or racket"... if you can't get to that level, you won't do well.


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