# Hoyt excel or Martin Jaguar risers for ILF bow!



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

lozzano said:


> Wich riser would make a good, fast, not so expensive ILF bow?
> I know you can convert the jaguar to ILF, I like the excel riser, but the reflex jaguar riser seems it would make a faster bow, what do you guys think?


Personally, though I own a Jaguar, if YOU LIKE the Excel that is what I would be buying. Fast doesn't equal accurate or satisfaction. I like my Jaguar and with all the talk about ILF limbs and all, may also go that route just for grins, but I already own the dang thing and if I was choosing.... I pick what I liked best.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think the Excel is at another level than the Jaguar, no brainer - Excel.


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Though I've never shot a Jaguar...I'd go with the Excell...from what I hear.


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## lozzano (Feb 17, 2009)

If I was using the same limbs on both risers,
Is the jaguar reflex riser going to make a faster bow? 
Thanks for all your comments, they really help!


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I have a PSE Coyote, which is similar to the Jaguar in being very reflex. I also have an Excel with Trad Tech limbs. Both are drilled and tapped for all kinds of accessories, although the Excel a bit more so. The Excel also has many more grip options. The Coyote is fun to knock around and hunt with, but the Excel is far more flexible - I have shot mine in full FITA target setup and am now shooting barebow, and everything in between.

Yes, for a given weight, the reflex riser will shoot faster if you also use shorter arrows. Reflex is faster because you can shoot lighter arrows. The Excel is distinctly deflexed.

However, I would describe the Coyote as "a bit squirrely". The reflex riser makes it distinctly more difficult to shoot accurately. It's good enough for hunting distances, but gets gnarly beyond that. The low brace height also tends to beat the snot out of your arm - the Coyote definitely "bites", more similar to a longbow than a recurve in that regard.

The Excel is more "stable" and forgiving, with the deflex riser. It seems like it "sits in the groove" and is less sensitive to torque. The Coyote feels to me like it's always slightly out of control and I must be mindful to be accurate with it. The Excel feels like an old pair of hiking boots - fits perfectly and you almost forget you're wearing them, yet they will take you anywhere.

The Jaguar looks to be similar to the Coyote. At least for me, a fun knock-around bow that I don't worry about. The Excel, however is more adaptable and I spend most of my time shooting with it. If I could have only one bow (God forbid!), it would be an Excel.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

j.conner said:


> Yes, for a given weight, the reflex riser will shoot faster if you also use shorter arrows. Reflex is faster because you can shoot lighter arrows. The Excel is distinctly deflexed.


Yes, a lighter arrow will be faster, but the amount of deflex or reflex would not change any requirement on arrow length. The same arrow that fits one has the same riser/hand clearance as on the other, as the distance between your bow hand and your draw hand never changes - your draw is a fixed length, or should be.

What does change for reflexed riser is that now your limbs start pulling from a different angle to bow hand anchor point in the draw cycle. This comes at a cost of stability, as the load's center of gravity is now behind the load. Think of trying to steer a shopping cart with the front axle behind the wheel instead of the front. The lack of castor of the wheel causes steering instability - same with the reflexed riser.


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## Jackthecat (Jan 26, 2010)

I think you should go with the Excel. I have a Jaguar and the finish is horrible.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

For the sake of speed, reflex/deflex does make a difference. It is in the brace height which is directly related to the power stroke. The shorter brace height bow (reflexed like the Martin) will have a longer power stroke and therefore be faster given equal limbs, strings etc. The longer power stroke comes at a price, typically the reflex designs take better form to shoot well.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

centershot said:


> For the sake of speed, reflex/deflex does make a difference. It is in the brace height which is directly related to the power stroke. The shorter brace height bow (reflexed like the Martin) will have a longer power stroke and therefore be faster given equal limbs, strings etc. The longer power stroke comes at a price, typically the reflex designs take better form to shoot well.


Such could or could not be the case, as we have to remember that power stroke changes are related to limb travel changes and not the position of the riser grip. BH (limb travel and power stroke included) is changed through string length. Just because the BH is lowered by having the riser more behind the limb tips doesn't mean that the limb travel will be any more or less than that of a deflexed bow using the same string length.

Yes, for a given string length, the reflexed bow will have a lower BH, but the effective angle of the limb butt is where the added speed/power comes in. If you had a 20-degree limb pad angle on a straight riser, the effective angle of the draw against the limbs would lower as you move the grip location forward of that angle (deflex) and rise as you move behind the angle (reflex) - all assuming a "given" comparison of variables between bows, i.e., the same bow length, string length, etc.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Doesn't all that presuppose a straight limb?

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Doesn't all that presuppose a straight limb?
> 
> Much Aloha... :beer:


That is why using BH as a criteria in a decision process of bow performance is not correct, IMO. First, BH is a functional setting and will be what it will be for arm clearance and tuning. The Jaguar is recommended at 7" - 7.5" from Martin - not much different for its bow length than any other bows require. Makes sense. If not, why wouldn't I just set my deflexed bows to a very low BH and get the best of speed and riser stability?

Second, yes, there is also limb geometry at play from straight to super-recurve, and the required BH for each group will be comparatively the same ranges depending on shooter and tuning requirements.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

There are two reasons for a reflex riser - (1) reduce the brace height and (2) improve the balance of the bow. The reflex riser balances the bow my moving the center of gravity to back towards the shooter.

I see both features in my Coyote and Excel. The Coyote is amazingly well balanced - it stands straight up in my open hand, but my Excel would roll back hit me in the forehead without a stabilizer, counterweight, or wrist strap. The Excel assumes that you will be using a stabilizer or counterweight to balance it. The Coyote is tapped for a stabilizer but is rarely shot with one - it usually is used for a bow fishing reel instead, being an excellent bowfishing rig (as is the Jaguar, I believe).

If I lay both bows strung and face-down, the strings are very nearly the same height from the floor, but the Coyote handle is clearly higher. You'll readily see that the brace height of the Excel is about 9" while that of the Coyote is a bit over 5".

Reducing the brace height increases the power stroke (all other things equal) but also reduces the time the arrow has to clear the riser, making it tougher to tune. PSE deals with this by cutting the Coyote riser way past center - this takes the riser more out of the picture in terms of fletching clearance. I use the NAP Centerest Flipper on mine and it is a gem. Very easy to carry a spare and replace it in the field if you ever had to.

Subjectively, I would say that, at the same draw weight, my Coyote has more "pop" than my Excel, but is more difficult to control and readily punishes any form errors. And the Coyote will almost certainly "bite" my arm if I shoot without an armguard, whereas I can easily shoot my Excel without an armguard (especially if using the Ortho high wrist grip, which is not an option with the Coyote).

I would also finally mention that the quality of limbs you can put on the Excel are far greater than those on the Coyote. In the ILF world, you can get short limbs, long limbs, fast limbs, slow limbs, heavy limbs, light limbs, cheap limbs, expensive limbs, new limbs, used limbs, etc. With the Coyote, you get the standard PSE Coyote limbs - they are decent, but even the least expensive ILF limbs are probably better. One saving grace, though - you can readily get replacement Coyote limbs in all their standard weights, so you can get a pair of 40# for shooting target and perfecting your form, plus some 55# for hunting.


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## lozzano (Feb 17, 2009)

Thank you guys for all the info!

You really know your archery science. I found a jaguar riser to try the Jaguar ILF mod with maybe TT blackmax limbs and see how it works, if I don't like it I'll switch to an excel riser. Do you guys have any comments on this mod?


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

That's the beauty of the ILF world - you can readily switch limbs, risers, and accessories. 

I predict that you will probably find the reflexed Jaguar riser to be a bit twitchy compared to a typical ILF riser, although it should be OK with a 7" brace height. Sanford is correct that is a more "normal" brace height, not crazy low like the Coyote.

Another option is to get a less expensive ILF riser to experiment with, like a Samick Candidate ($75) or KAP T-Rex ($90). You can get the riser and limbs camo dipped later too, if you like. That would also make a really good knock-around bow.

One word of caution on the Trad Tech limbs... they rate their weights based on the length of the corresponding riser (17" riser in the case of the Black Max limbs). You will need to convert that to whatever length the Jaguar riser is, or whatever other riser you may choose. The actual draw weight is -1# for every riser inch longer than 17" for those Black Max limbs.

Similarly, ILF limbs are usually rated for weight on a standard 25" riser, so 40# ILF standard limbs on a 23" Excel riser will pull 42#. Note that the Samick limbs (Trad Tech limbs are made by Samick, BTW) tend to be a bit heavier than marked, usually by a couple pounds.


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