# Sticky  Various methods of Aiming the Traditional bow



## Str8 Shooter

With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.

Instinctive:









The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.

Getting into the reference methods... 

All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.

Split Vision:









This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.

Various Gap methods...

Gap at target:









This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.

Pick a Point: 









The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.

Short Gap (or Gap at Bow): 









This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.

Gapping with the Shaft: 









This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet. 

Gap at Riser: 









This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot. 

Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.










These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.

Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


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## Maxbks

Outstanding post...all of these gapping post lately have cleared up a lot of things for me. Thanks, Max


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## c-lo

Great post, thanks. Clarified some different points for me, particularly using the riser as an aiming tool which I've been trying, as you said by using a measurement from the plate.


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## mrjeffro

Very nicely done. . Thanks for posting :thumbs_up


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## LongStick64

Best post of the Year !!!
based on the above I'm in the Split Vision category, guess I read too many stories of Howard Hill.


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## GPW

Wow!! That is a Great explanation , with the visual reference ... Guess I’m Split vision too ...


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## Old Sarge

Very concise and well illustrated post. You will certainly help a lot of shooters with this information. Good job!


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## ncheels

Looks like I use split vision. Thanks for such a clearly illustrated post. Very informative.


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## ncheels

These illustrations are based on pre-draw. How many people aim from pre-draw (then simply draw and release) and how many aim while at anchor?


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## dx2

Bookmarked!


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## sharpbroadhead

Pretty much explains instinctive - don't know about all the rest

Ncheels - many people do not have a "pre-draw" it is all one motion


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## buffrider

I'm instinctive. Most def. awesome post


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## Str8 Shooter

Thanks for the positive responses! Glad it clears some things up.

These illustrations are based on a full draw position. I shoot an arrow that usually hangs past the front of the riser an inch or two so thats what my sight picture looks like. If you shoot shorter arrows the tip would sit further back into the riser.

Speaking of pre-draw aiming that is another method you can use. You simply choose a reference style and aim before the draw. Once the hold is correct you can draw back while focusing on the target. This method pretty much requires using a set bow arm and it better be rock steady. Also, it tends to work best on static targets. Once something moves (like a hunting shot) you better have practiced moving on target. I used to use a pre-aim method for several years until I began experimenting with other methods of aiming.

I will also add in a couple pics of facewalking and stringwalking styles when I get time.


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## Easykeeper

Nice post!


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## BLACK WOLF

Like I've said...a picture can be worth a 1000 words.

Great job Str8 Shooter for putting this together!

You did a great job of explaining and detailing the aiming techniques in your pics.

There are some other aspects to Instinctive Aiming that will determine if an archer is truly aiming totally Instinctively or not...and anyone who wants to research it just needs to dig deeper into how our minds and our bodies work together to utilize objects within our sight pictures.

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary

this is exactly what we need GREAT JOB !!!!!

Gary


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## Leafwalker

Wow, I had no idea there were so many different methods of gap shooting. Excellent post!


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## ncheels

Str8 Shooter said:


> Thanks for the positive responses! Glad it clears some things up.
> 
> These illustrations are based on a full draw position. I shoot an arrow that usually hangs past the front of the riser an inch or two so thats what my sight picture looks like. If you shoot shorter arrows the tip would sit further back into the riser.
> 
> Speaking of pre-draw aiming that is another method you can use. You simply choose a reference style and aim before the draw. Once the hold is correct you can draw back while focusing on the target. This method pretty much requires using a set bow arm and it better be rock steady. Also, it tends to work best on static targets.


AH, I was focusing on what looked like an un-drawn bow string and so I thought you took these pics before drawing. That string must be a shadow. Now that you reply, I see that your arrow is, of course, too far back to be pre-draw.


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## steve morley

great Job :thumbs_up


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## Moebow

Str8 Shooter,

That got the "gap at the bow/arrow question I had in the other post explained. Thank you! I took the liberty of saving those pictures for future reference. 

Arne


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## henro

Good info!


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## Greysides

Great explanation.


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## hmmngwy

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to post this. It helps tremendously.


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## sharpbroadhead

Without trying to start a huge argument - I think that your work is awesome here and to me - from my perspective - it shows pretty clearly that in the end - there is no way that anyone is going to be able to use any of those conscious methods of aiming a barebow soley at a conscious level - look at the sight pin of a sighted bow and how tiny it is - and guys have trouble lining that up on targets and they even use peeps on the string - and are taught to look through the sight and just focus on the target - rather than to try and consciously line up the sight - how much more must be the case when using such crude sighting methods as those conscious aiming methods you described that are used by barebow shooters.

I think in the end that there is a very fine line between how any good shot actually aims - and contrary to what many in this forum like to claim - I think that all good shots are actually instinctive shooters and that their subconscious is aiming the bow - these conscious aiming methods may get the bow in the general vicinity of the target - but to get really accurate - the fine tuning that would be needed by these conscious methods is just not even possible with such crude "sighting" methods - it has to be done at a subconscious level and your pics and clarifications of these different methods convinces me of this suspicion of mine more than ever.

Kinda funny - some guys think that everyone is a gap shooter - I think everyone that is good is an instinctive shooter -


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## Eldermike

The OP posts would make a great sticky post for future reference.


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## onlyaspike

Great post and thanks for taking the time taking and posting the pics.....


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## keb

I am a split vision/ instinctive shooter, I line the shaft up were I want start drawing and remain focuses on the spot. I guess that's what I am.


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## Wayko

Thank you for posting this.....I can see clearly now, the fog is gone...well at lease fer now anyway, lol


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## BLACK WOLF

Using a sight or an arrow as an aiming reference and looking through it...does NOT qualify the aiming technique as being totally Instinctive. The archer is most likely using the aiming reference at a lower level of conscious awareness...which can seem very instinctive like...BUT...it is NOT the same as how an archer aiming totally instinctively uses their aiming references and/or sight picture.

An archer can not use a sight or an arrow totally instinctively if they are placing it on a target in the archer's direct line of sight.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead

Black you constantly post this stuff - please post a photo of someone you think is shooting instinctively with a Recurve or Longbow that does not have the arrow in their line of sight - every archer has the arrow in front of their face and in their line of sight - unless you are shooting from the hip or behind your back - by your definitions - Fred Asbell is not an instinctive shooter - because his arrow is directly in his line of sight - just like mine is, Rick Welch's is, and all instinctive shooters who anchor on their face


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## Double S

a highly informative post!.


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## Str8 Shooter

Again, thanks for the all the postive responses. I know that many people, myself included a few years back, struggled to find good info on aiming methods. I've spent quite a bit of time trying different things, talking with archers and learning. Hopefully it will help someone else out who is looking to learn something new or try a different technique. 

Ken, to address your thoughts, there is a big difference between the shot being aimed at a subconcious level and someone who aims and allows the subconcious to maintain that aiming reference. The difference lies in the fact that a reference aimer knows where they have placed their aiming point even if it's on a rudimentary level. If you ask a shooter who gaps in some form or another what their point on distance is they will likely give you an answer. An instinctive shooter probably won't know this. If they do it would be something like, "Oh, maybe 40-50 yards, not sure cuz I can't see the target anymore." The point is, folks who utilize an aiming reference will conciously place their aiming reference on target as part of their shot routine. It may not be done at a fine level but there is a concious decision to set the aim. Once it is placed and the archer is satisfied it's correct they continue to execute the shot. Now during that process they focus on the target and in most cases the peripheral vision maintains and refines the sight picture. This is not the same as instinctive. 

The analogy with a sight is somewhat flawed. A sight is a very fine instrument that allows very precise adjustments. In the case of an Olympic shooter they are fully capable of walking arrows from left to right on target by making very minute adjustments to windage. The same goes for elevation. Once everything is set they can focus on the target while only maintaining peripheral focus on the sight itself. If suddenly the arrows starting hitting off center they will certainly check the sight to verify that nothing has moved provided the shot was executed with good form. Let me ask you this, if the Olympic shooter removed their sight and trusted the subconcious to run the entire shot do you think they would be able to hold the same groups... or even keep them on target? The answer is no. 

Furthermore, there are two schools of thought on aiming. One says you allow the subconcious to run the shot while focusing on executing with correct form. The other focuses conciously on the aiming and allows the subconcious to execute the shot. I know people who are in both camps and do very well. It really comes down to how your brain functions. There is no one right way to do something but there is a best way for each person.


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## sharpbroadhead

Str8 - the point that a sight is a very fine instrument that allows for precise adjusments is the point I was trying to make. According to every archery ballistics calculator that I have messed with - on say a 30 or 35 yard shot - a misjudgement of distance by just a few yards will make for a very bad shot with the speed that trad bows shoot - hence - very fine and precise adjustements are being made if we are shooting accurately at unknown distances - and with all of the barebow methods of aiming - such precise and fine adjustments are not possible - at least at a conscious level. They are most definitely possible at a subconscious level - but not at a conscious level as there is nothing fine and precise enough in any of the barebow aiming methods to line up for a difference of say 2 or 3 yards at 35 yards. 

I am going to attempt to illustrate this by setting my bow up in a hooter shooter shooting machine and zeroing it in at 30 yards and then shooting at a target that is 33 yards and one that is 27 yards to show just how much I would miss by if I judged the distance wrong. I can assure you, I am not a good enough judge of distances to tell you the difference between 30 and 33 yards - and I think very few people can - at a conscious level anyhow.


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## itbeso

Str8 Shooter said:


> Again, thanks for the all the postive responses. I know that many people, myself included a few years back, struggled to find good info on aiming methods. I've spent quite a bit of time trying different things, talking with archers and learning. Hopefully it will help someone else out who is looking to learn something new or try a different technique.
> 
> Ken, to address your thoughts, there is a big difference between the shot being aimed at a subconcious level and someone who aims and allows the subconcious to maintain that aiming reference. The difference lies in the fact that a reference aimer knows where they have placed their aiming point even if it's on a rudimentary level. If you ask a shooter who gaps in some form or another what their point on distance is they will likely give you an answer. An instinctive shooter probably won't know this. If they do it would be something like, "Oh, maybe 40-50 yards, not sure cuz I can't see the target anymore." The point is, folks who utilize an aiming reference will conciously place their aiming reference on target as part of their shot routine. It may not be done at a fine level but there is a concious decision to set the aim. Once it is placed and the archer is satisfied it's correct they continue to execute the shot. Now during that process they focus on the target and in most cases the peripheral vision maintains and refines the sight picture. This is not the same as instinctive.
> 
> The analogy with a sight is somewhat flawed. A sight is a very fine instrument that allows very precise adjustments. In the case of an Olympic shooter they are fully capable of walking arrows from left to right on target by making very minute adjustments to windage. The same goes for elevation. Once everything is set they can focus on the target while only maintaining peripheral focus on the sight itself. If suddenly the arrows starting hitting off center they will certainly check the sight to verify that nothing has moved provided the shot was executed with good form. Let me ask you this, if the Olympic shooter removed their sight and trusted the subconcious to run the entire shot do you think they would be able to hold the same groups... or even keep them on target? The answer is no.
> 
> Furthermore, there are two schools of thought on aiming. One says you allow the subconcious to run the shot while focusing on executing with correct form. The other focuses conciously on the aiming and allows the subconcious to execute the shot. I know people who are in both camps and do very well. It really comes down to how your brain functions. There is no one right way to do something but there is a best way for each person.


Str8 shooter, You did a great job with your photographs trying to illustrate the different aiming methods. I'm too computer illerate to post pictures on here. I do want to clear one thing up about gapping over the arrow. The camera can't capture the gap be cause the gap is the focal point and the tip of the arrow and the spot are in your secondary vision. . Consequently, the target and the tip of the arrow are references for the gap, but the whole focus of your aiming should be looking at that gap only. The great thing about this type of aiming is that it doesn't make any difference what you are aiming at, spots, muscles, feathers, etc., just pick out a place to hit and run the gap. never a guess on your first arrow. Again, great job.


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## Str8 Shooter

Let me get some more pics taken of face walking and stringwalking methods. I know from experience that a good stringwalker can definitely adjust the shot in fine increments and compensate for a yard or two difference. When I tried stringwalking I had references on my tab for 5 yard increments. I could easily split the differences if I thought a target was, say, over 25 but under 30. I kid you not, it is a precise enough aiming method that with rock solid form you can see the change in impact an 1/16" adjustment on your hold will make.

I also wanted to point out that one misconception with utilizing aiming references is you have to be able to judge distance down to the inch. Aiming references are simply ways to help your brain compensate for the trajectory of the arrow. You don't have to judge distance perfectly. Say you reference off the riser and you know the edge of your sideplate coincides with the target at 20 yards. One half inch down (or approximately where the top of the shaft is) you know that point is 30 yards. Now say you look at the target and it appears to be in between those two distances. I would look between the two aforementioned references which would give me app. 25 yards. At full draw I'd line that up and than allow the refinement of the sight picture at a less concious level. The difference, again, is I have chosen to set a rough elevation and my brain takes that information, the visual cues it picks up and refines that until everything looks right.

Itbeso, 
Right on. That's a good point to clarify. I wanted to adjust the camera to try to show how the target or reference can be clear or fuzzy depending on where you focus. But, it's just a cheapie and the dang thing always wants to auto-focus. Thanks for sharing the pointer.


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## Eldermike

One key to all methods, they are all learned, and then ingrained through pratice. You could say it's by habit.


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## sharpbroadhead

yep - we hone our instincts


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## Matt_Potter

Chris - great job.

Here is an interesting thought make of it what you will. I stringwalk and I have decent form - I can like you say see the difference when I split a stitch. When I am shooting I am looking past the tip to the spot I want to hit - tough to describe but, it is different than split vision as the tip isn't fussed out yet I am not focusing on it. 

Here is the interesting thing - if I step up to the stake and say OK that is 18 yards and I am right I'll stack it right in there - if it is actually 20 I'll shoot a little low. But, if I step up and shoot it for 18 and stack it in there and then step back to 20 or up to say 16 and shoot the same crawl odds are I'll shoot right with the other arrow my subconscious makes the minute changes that are necessary. I don't care if you are a aiming guy or a form guy I think there is a ton going on in the subconscious realm with our aiming - how else do you explain the float?

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF

sharpbroadhead said:


> by your definitions - Fred Asbell is not an instinctive shooter - because his arrow is directly in his line of sight - just like mine is, Rick Welch's is, and all instinctive shooters who anchor on their face


sharp...why do you twist people's words or ignore key words in a person's post?

First off...I've NEVER claimed the Fred Asbell is NOT aiming instinctively by my definition! That's a conclusion you've come to by not understanding what I'm sharing.

There's a BIG difference between what's in an archer's DIRECT line of sight and what's in an archer's PERIPHIAL vision.

There are also differences in how our brain will use those aiming references.

Learn to understand those differences and you will begin to understand what I'm sharing with others on this subject.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF

Matt_Potter said:


> I don't care if you are a aiming guy or a form guy I think there is a ton going on in the subconscious realm with our aiming - how else do you explain the float?


Exactly...which is why there is some confusion about Instinctive aiming and some of the other aiming techniques.

What you desribed is how alot of good shooters end up shooting. They CONSCIOULSY place or adjust their aiming reference in relationship to the target and than let that aiming reference float around the target. Just because an archer decreases their conscious awareness to their aiming reference after they have placed it where it needs to be...does NOT mean they are now aiming totally Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## gdpolk

Thanks for the tutorial. I've only been shooting for a couple of years and guess I do split vision shooting mostly unless I'm throwing out an arrow as quick as I draw. Some days I can shoot fairly decent and others not so much. I'm going to play around with these various forms of gap shooting and see if I can hone in on a more consistent point of impact at varying ranges.


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## Yewselfbow

Str8 Shooter
Thank you for an excellent post.
The instinctive explanation is a little new to me. I'ts not in any of the text books I own, and after 30 years in research, I own quite a few.
But it's a superb illustration and explation that I'm sure will help many many archers ... well done and thanks


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## BLACK WOLF

The Split Vision technique being referenced here is not the same as the one that Howard Hill described years ago in the book Hunting the Hard Way.

The way Split Vision is described on this thread is really not any different than how many seasoned Gap shooters aim.

The way Howard describes Split Vision is basically a combonation of Point of Aim/Pick a Point and Gap...where the archer places the tip of the arrow on a secondary aiming spot like an archer using Point of Aim does but the archer than moves their focus to the target while they are still aware of the arrow and the secondary aiming spot within their periphial vision.

Ray :shade:


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## gdpolk

Str8 Shooter said:


> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Thanks for this post. It has been very useful. Until today I've just kind of thrown up the arrow and let it go hoping it made contact. Today I tried all of the various methods at 10 and 20 yards. I found my groups to be consistently half of what they were before today using riser as a reference for gapping. Monday I'm going to play with that and see if I can hone in my skills with gapping using my riser as a reference point. I'm hoping that today wasn't just a good shooting day and that my results will be repeatable on Monday.


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## Lungwurm

Great Post!


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## Jefferlucywill

This is a good post. 
This is what instinctive shooting looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWUbgznN12k


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## BLACK WOLF

Jefferlucywill said:


> This is what instinctive shooting looks like.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWUbgznN12k


I basically agree!

Time plays an important roll on whether or not an archer is aiming TOTALLY instinctively.

An archer aiming TOTALLY instinctively will look similar to a pitcher throwing a ball or basketball player shooting a basketball.

The movements are very fluid...and little if any time is spent at anchor adjusting the sight picture.

The aiming is more of a refelx action to the target that happens very quickly and fluidly when the archer decides to shoot the target.

Ray :shade:


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## Hunter Dave

I *instinctively* look at the point of my arrow. :darkbeer:


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## BLACK WOLF

Hunter Dave said:


> I *instinctively* look at the point of my arrow. :darkbeer:


And...than what???? :wink:

Is this some how an attempt to share something of value in how you aim or are you just trolling to try and stir something up?

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow

Jefferlucywill said:


> This is a good post.
> This is what instinctive shooting looks like.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWUbgznN12k


Who the heck cares if that is "instinctive" or not. That is some damn fine shooting


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## Hunter Dave

BLACK WOLF said:


> And...than what???? :wink:
> 
> Is this some how an attempt to share something of value in how you aim or are you just trolling to try and stir something up?
> 
> Ray :shade:



Sorry, Ray, it was simply a feeble attempt to interject a little humor in the topic. :wink: No offense intended.


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## BLACK WOLF

Hunter Dave said:


> Sorry, Ray, it was simply a feeble attempt to interject a little humor in the topic. :wink: No offense intended.


:thumbs_up

It's sometimes hard to tell the difference between 'the pot stirers' and 'the comedians'.

I much prefer the comedians :wink: We all need to smile more, IMO :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Gurn

What goes on is the arrow is in front of the eye but not used for ah point of reference cause all the know concentration in on the spot.
Like your all into ah show on tv and your wife says somethin to ya. 
Yes her voice is totaly within your range ah senses but ya didnt hear ah word she said cause your full concentration is on the tv. Some but not all that shoot reference just dont understand that.... just like your wife wont. :wink: I wish I could shoot gap but somehow my simple mind will only let me see one thing at ah time. Anymore than that and I'm lost. :smile:
Black Wolf oh great defender of the poor misunderstood instinctive shooter, does that sound right??

On another thought your nose sticks out farther than you eye... do ya see it when you gap shootin? I'd havta bet not but how could that be possible unless you was ignorin it and concentratin on your gap.


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## BLACK WOLF

Gurn said:


> Black Wolf oh great defender of the poor misunderstood instinctive shooter, does that sound right??


Well...to be totally honest...I prefer 'educator' rather than 'defender' because it depends on what definition of 'instinctive aiming' we're discussing. :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rhust

Some focus more consciously and some more sub consciously. Everything is right in front of our face, we all see it. It is just how we use it.


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## centershot

Great Thread.


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## cttrailrider

Great post. I use what I call point of aim. I will hold at full draw for 5 to 6 seconds at times to make sure my point is where I want it at release. One thing I have to is make sure of is to hold on my point instead of releasing as I come accross it. If it is not right let down. Randy


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## Bucky460

Newbie here.....not to archery but to serious trad....I was looking at the pic and noticed that your arrow is directly under your target. I shoot 3 under and anchor bottom finger in the corner of mouth. I'm very consistent with the set up and can hit the vitals 90% of the time but after looking at these pics. My point of aim is way to the right Is this right or should I be looking straight down the arrow like the picture?


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## BLACK WOLF

Bucky460 said:


> My point of aim is way to the right Is this right or should I be looking straight down the arrow like the picture?


What is your dominant eye?

If your shooting right handed but you're left eye dominant, your arrow point will most likely be off target.

Some archers switch shooting sides to match their dominant eye.

You sound like you've learned to make it work.

Ray :shade:


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## Bucky460

I am right eye right hand dominant. Only reason I know this is 16 years of baseball. I have been bow hunting since I was 15(Im 30) and shot a recurve off and on since then but I really just now fully started to accept the full traditional archery scene. I just don't see how anybody could get directly over the arrow to see straight down it. I tried today after this post and could figure out a way to manipulate my body to see it the way the picture shows. I do shoot both eyes open and cantnthe bow a little. When I'm looking at my sight picture at 20 yards at full draw the point of my arrow is under the deers head and a little less than belly high on a 3d target. This is a dead deer everytime with proper release. If I was shooting like the picture it would be about belly high but directly under the vitals. Is this how everybody shoots. I could see how that would be a better option at longer yardages


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## Bucky460

I guess the cause of this is because I anchor on the side of my head so there is no way my eye can see down the staff. I guess I do a unorthodox version of gap shooting but I have to compute 2 sets of angles. Somebody please tell me I'm not crazy.


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## BLACK WOLF

Bucky460 said:


> Is this how everybody shoots.


No. Alot depends on facial structure, head placement and anchor point.

I personally believe being able to have the arrow positioned in an archer's view so it points directly at the target instead of one side or another...does make the aiming process easier...but many have learned to work around not being able to point the arrow as the picture represents.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF

Bucky460 said:


> I guess the cause of this is because I anchor on the side of my head so there is no way my eye can see down the staff.


Can you take a picture to show us exactly what the relationship is between your arrow and your eye?

Most of us do anchor somewhere on the side of our face...so it is possible to get the arrow to point directly at the target above, below or right on the target.

Ray :shade:

PS...you're NOT crazy :wink:


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## Bucky460

]the first is what i see in the pics at the beginning






this is what i see when i shoot my bow


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## Bucky460

the ball as the reference point


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## BLACK WOLF

Bucky,

Sorry I wasn't clear. I wanted to see a pic of you at full draw of your face, anchor point and arrow.

Ray :shade:


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## RdRcr150

This may sound a little dumb, but I was once asked how I aim and I was at a loss to explain. I had no idea how I aimed, so I decided to figure out how I aimed and after shooting about a thousand arrows my grouping went to crap. It got so bad that I began to have target misses. I took some time off and tried to figure out what was going wrong and came to the conclusion that I had no idea how to fix the problem. There were no books to read (this was in the late 50's) and I was a better shot that anyone in our club,so I was completely lost. As my problem became worse I became overwhelmed by the problem and ended up by quitting shooting. I was an archer by birth, it was in my blood and this problem was horribly depressing. 
After some time off, I went rabbit hunting after school one afternoon and with my first shot scored a rabbit...three rabbits later with three arrows I decided that I needed to quit thinking about how I aimed and just shoot the bow. 
A couple of months later, at our archery club meeting, Howard Hill spoke. He invited me to the stage to try and draw his bow and was properly amazed that a twelve year old boy could draw his longbow. When I told him that I used a Bear Kodiak #55 he said really and praised me. After the meeting ended and he was done speaking I asked him how he aimed after giving him the short story of my problem and he told me that he just knew where the arrow would go and had used that method his entire life. 
That was over 50 years ago and I still have no idea how I aim. I just know where the arrow is going to go and it has always worked for me.


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## BLACK WOLF

RdRcr150 said:


> I just know where the arrow is going to go and it has always worked for me.


There are left brain thinkers. There are right brain thinkers...and than there are those that have learned to use both sides of their brain equally.

What that basically means...is that you most likely don't need to analyze your aiming method and you shoot better by feel.

If an archer's aiming technique is working for them...there really is no need to know how they do it. Knowing how is really only important in teaching and coaching circumstances.

Confidence plays a HUGE roll in an archer's potential accuracy...and Howard was definitely confident. He also used a more specifc aiming technique in his earlier days and for certain shots. It was called Split Vision.

Ray :shade:


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## Logos

Yes, if you're doing well and start thinking about it........kiss it goodbye.

"Just do it" was never more appropriate.


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## RdRcr150

Oh good...there for a minute I thought I was going to be a no-brain thinker.


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## BLACK WOLF

RdRcr150 said:


> Oh good...there for a minute I thought I was going to be a no-brain thinker.


LOL...yep...there might be a few of those that exist...but you're not one of them :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## SS7777

This is probably an ignorant question, but is it helpful to close the non-dominant eye when gapping?


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## Logos

People have so many bizarre ideas about aiming that you may get a plethora of answers on this.....but I can tell you for sure that most people shoot better with both eyes open.

If your right eye is dominant, shoot right handed with both eyes open.

Left eye dominant, reverse it......but always keep both eyes open for best shooting.

:nod:


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## SS7777

Thanks, I appreciate the help.


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## joefire38

great post! very informative. I aim pre draw and then become instictive at anchor. If that makes sense.


ncheels said:


> These illustrations are based on pre-draw. How many people aim from pre-draw (then simply draw and release) and how many aim while at anchor?


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## BLACK WOLF

joefire38 said:


> I aim pre draw and then become instictive at anchor.


That makes sense...but clinically I would describe it more as...you are more consciously aware of your aim at pre-draw and than reduce your conscious awareness to a much lower level while you're at anchor. Not quite the same as an archer aiming Totally Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## TheWood!!

Awesome, as a new trad shooter, this will be a big help to me.


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## Colin.W

great post but I'm still not sure how I aim. after many hours in front of the butts I know to a fair degree of consistancy where my arrow will go, I am aware of tilting to raise or lower the trajectory of the arrow. I shoot english longbow so I also have to allow for thew arrow to bend around the bow but I dont do it consiously I think I did at first but perhaps I now do it without thinking


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## BLACK WOLF

Colin.W said:


> great post but I'm still not sure how I aim.


Colin,

There really is no need to know how you aim...unless you're trying to explain it to someone else for educative purposes. As long as you are happy with your results...that's all that should really matter.

Ray :shade:


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## ArrowCrazy

Great post, thanks!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


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## thejake

i pick out the smallest thing I can find on the animal in the vitals and shoot. I dont have an anchor point, I just pull to where it feels comfortable and let it fly. I have tried finding an anchor point but it doest work for me. Been shooting a recurve for 20 years and practice and feel is what makes you a good shot.


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## bshaver

thejake said:


> i pick out the smallest thing I can find on the animal in the vitals and shoot. I dont have an anchor point, I just pull to where it feels comfortable and let it fly. I have tried finding an anchor point but it doest work for me. Been shooting a recurve for 20 years and practice and feel is what makes you a good shot.


This is good. When I shoot at geese I would try to draw, anchor, and release. That is too hard. Now I will just draw and release, release when it feels right. Not sure this would be best for me when shooting non moving targets, but I'll give it a try. On non moving I'm a split vision shooter, although I don't look down the arrow shaft because I shoot right handed and am frequently left eye dominent. I always hold to the left, unless I want to miss by about 3 feet at twenty yards.


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## SGALVEZ

Great postings from everyone. As a new shooter (just doing it for a few weeks) I appreciated the detail in the posts. Although I'm not sure my setup is traditional (Martin Saber w/a whisker biscuit) - I think I may be an instinctive shooter since I didn't know any of the different aiming techniques documented by the original poster. I also tried anchoring against the side of my mouth - but after hitting myself more times than I want to admit - I now anchor my base thumb knuckle against my jaw bone. Once I get my consistency down, I may try aiming. .d;-)


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## Leon Hinton

We went to the STAR shoot in Va. the other week had a great time. They had a Zombie shoot at night. I shot better there than I did in the regular shoot. We were making head shots I couldn't see my arrow the distances were from 15 to around 30 yards. Sometimes we used a flashlight some times I shot the siloette from the faint light of the glow stick they had around the necks. LCH


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## airwolf

thejake said:


> i pick out the smallest thing I can find on the animal in the vitals and shoot. I dont have an anchor point, I just pull to where it feels comfortable and let it fly. I have tried finding an anchor point but it doest work for me. Been shooting a recurve for 20 years and practice and feel is what makes you a good shot.


for me anyways I have to somewhat agree with this. when I sw, gap, aim or any other of that nonesense I struggle , why make it harder then it has to be.


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## jaz5833

As a beginner, I gaped the target. Eventually, I developed a "FEEL" and crossed over into split vision.

After many many months of working at 10-20 yards, I eventually crossed over into instinctive......mostly......If I don't think too hard about it ahead of time, my first shot will be my best, and accomplished with little reference to the arrow or other external references. If I'm by myself this may continue for a set or two. If not, I'll drift back and forth between the two. I think after some more time the instinctive will get more prevalent.

At longer distances where I have less practice, I have to be more aware of the gap at the target.


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## DrakeLineous

At full draw, where is the string supposed to be? I either have it at the side of my face or in front of just my right eye, but in the pictures it looks to be dead center between the eyes. Should I also cant my bow and my head?


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## RedQuill53

Great post, now I understand why I can't remember anything but the shot itself.


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## RedQuill53

DrakeLineous said:


> At full draw, where is the string supposed to be? I either have it at the side of my face or in front of just my right eye, but in the pictures it looks to be dead center between the eyes. Should I also cant my bow and my head?


Hi Drake, I use a heavy cant when I shoot (almost 40 degrees) so I generally reference anchor points. If I am really thinking about it, my anchor point puts the fletch of the arrow roughly at the corner of my mouth which puts my fingertips about even with the curve of my lower mandible. This is the way I learned to shoot many years ago and it works for me. My mate, however, uses a different shooting style and her anchor point is about one inch in front of her face and more vertical. I tend to "relax" my head and neck, while she keeps hers a bit more stiff. I don't actually look at the string or use it as any kind of reference.

Hope my experience helps.


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## 337088

Pull string so finger is at your mouth(corner) then I'm with both eyes.


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## longbowguy

A late reply to Drake's question about where should the string be? -- Well, it varies among archers. But for most good ones I believe the string is somewhat to the right of the eye, and so is the butt of the arrow shaft. Some try to put the shaft directly under the eye but I think that is a mistake. It won't stay there - - as the string is released, it and the butt of the arrow will move the better part of an inch to the left before moving much forward. So it might as well start to the right. This is part of the paradox in 'archer's paradox'. The point of the arrow should be directly under the line of sight, but not the butt. So the arrow will point to the left at full draw; more paradox. From there it will curve around the bow, wig wag a while, and then fly straight down the target line; the rest of the paradox- how does it do it? We don't need to know.

Many good archers draw the string to contact the eyebrow. For those of us who wear glasses it is better to stop short of the string touching then. In either case, a bit to the right seems best. - lbg


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## longbowguy

Further, I want to respond to the posts about not knowing where you aim. I find this is a very good way to do it at hunting distances, and maybe out into the midranges. Further out, where the arrowhead rises to near the line of sight, it makes more sense to aim off it. - lbg


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## Brainflex

Cheers LBG, that answers one of my concerns.


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## 337088

longbowguy said:


> Many good archers draw the string to contact the eyebrow. For those of us who wear glasses it is better to stop short of the string touching then. In either case, a bit to the right seems best. - lbg


That relates to the Apache style of shooting, with the butt upwards. Just trust the butt of the arrow to the mouth and do what you need to do.


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## 337088

longbowguy said:


> Further, I want to respond to the posts about not knowing where you aim. I find this is a very good way to do it at hunting distances, and maybe out into the midranges. Further out, where the arrowhead rises to near the line of sight, it makes more sense to aim off it. - lbg


This is all real, everything shoots differently. Especially the draw weight. I shoot #55 "Hunter" by Martin and at 30 yards I aim about a foot and a half high, I guess, never measured it.


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## longbowguy

longbowguy said:


> Further, I want to respond to the posts about not knowing where you aim. I find this is a very good way to do it at hunting distances, and maybe out into the midranges. Further out, where the arrowhead rises to near the line of sight, it makes more sense to aim off it. - lbg


I meant to say not knowing HOW you aim. I know exactly where I aim: plumb center of whatever I intend to hit. - lbg


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## 337088

longbowguy said:


> I meant to say not knowing HOW you aim. I know exactly where I aim: plumb center of whatever I intend to hit. - lbg


Don't look down your arrow and line it up with target, the arrow drops, unless you have a 80 lb bow or something. Focus on the target. I hope this helped.


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## MAC 11700

Thanks for this thread..it has cleared up some things I have always wondered about. .

Mac


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## maineguide

I have picked up a few books on shooting instinctive but this seems to be the most help.. Thanks for the info.


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## marksman1122

This post is awesome. I just started the sport, haven't had my first lesson yet, but I had instinctive shooting explained to me by comparing it to throwing a ball. You don't have any way of aiming, you just focus on where you want it to go and your body does the rest subconsciously. Does that sound accurate to you guys?


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## andyb5

marksman1122 said:


> This post is awesome. I just started the sport, haven't had my first lesson yet, but I had instinctive shooting explained to me by comparing it to throwing a ball. You don't have any way of aiming, you just focus on where you want it to go and your body does the rest subconsciously. Does that sound accurate to you guys?


I'm far from an expert, but I see it like shooting a free throw, you don't "aim" really. The conscious mind doesn't tell you how hard to shoot the free throw, you see it, and knock it down in rhythm. The unconscious mind is much more accurate than the conscious mind when it comes to hand eye coordination.


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## L2fly

This explained SO much... thank you!


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## David Alford

I don't think that's necessarily true. Have you thought about this? If you wanted to thread a needle would you do it consciously or unconsciously? I think I could give you a zillion examples but I'll agree the subconscious mind can do quite well in certain things.



andyb5 said:


> I'm far from an expert, but I see it like shooting a free throw, you don't "aim" really. The conscious mind doesn't tell you how hard to shoot the free throw, you see it, and knock it down in rhythm. The unconscious mind is much more accurate than the conscious mind when it comes to hand eye coordination.


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## David Alford

David Alford said:


> I don't think that's necessarily true. Have you thought about this? If you wanted to thread a needle would you do it consciously or unconsciously? I think I could give you a zillion examples but I'll agree the subconscious mind can do quite well in certain things.


Particular those that require fast reaction...


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## BLACK WOLF

Instinctive Aiming can be very precise...but not everyone has the natural skill to execute it as accurately as other archers using other aiming techniques.

An archer's aiming technique should ALWAYS fit their Goals, Abilities and Personality :wink:

Each aiming technique will have inherent advantages and disadvantages under specific conditions for the majority of archers.

Instinctive aiming is more about taking a shot that requires a short amount of time to execute and the overall target is fairly large which in most cases is also at close distance...BUT when someone truly masters it....amazing feats of accuracy can be achieved such as hitting asprins out of the air.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

The problem with many if not most instinctive shooting is that the anchor, head position, and draw are too inconsistent and accuracy is very difficult. IMO, talent is overplayed. Even a person with talent cannot be consistent
if those problems are not solved. The best instinctive archers are those who shoot more of a tournament style with serious intent given to minimizing variation in form.


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## BLACK WOLF

The best instinctive archers are the one's who excel at their specific discipline.

An archer punching holes in paper will adapt a style more specific under those circumstances.

There's a reason why archers shooting off horse back, at moving targets or shooting very quickly look different than archers punching paper from a target line.

Ray :shade:


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## webster2

Great thread. But, I have to respectfully disagree with David A's characterization that most instinctive archers are inconsistent in their form (anchor, head position, draw, etc.). 

As with any shooting style there are shooters who get a bit sloppy with form, but to imply that the style itself essentially defines the shooters as bad is to imply that the style itself is inferior. Not true.

Form is a catch-all term for whatever mechanics are necessary for that shooter to properly direct the arrow. In point of fact, a "good" instinctive shooter pays just as much attention to form as a gap shooter does (when it comes to shooting style physics has no preference). Where an instinctive shooter's ability to 'finish' reaches it's greatest challenge relates more to distance to the mark. The ubiquitous 'they all have lousy form' allegation seems much more based on a false stereotype than perhaps it should be. 

While simplicity of form is the best friend of an instinctive shooter, distance to the mark is his nemesis (don't believe all that stuff you see in the movies). The farther the shot the smaller the spot...and the harder the shot, almost exponentially. Without a visual crutch (arrow tip or whatever) to adjust the sight picture/arrow arc there are fewer options for fine-tuning as shots lengthen. This is why shooting instinctively is and should be, from a practical sense, largely a short-range affair. It's also why it is often the BEST style for hitting the mark when fast shooting under less than perfect conditions is a necessity...which brings us to the question of shooter motives. 

If shooters want to be great on targets at longer ranges then a visual reference system (like gapping) might be the best choice. On the other hand, if shooters want to hunt in all manner of outdoor conditions or shoot at moving targets at close range (animals or paper) then a less "involved" style makes just as much sense. There is a certain challenge and sense of accomplishment in making shots without sights (including even imaginary gaps) that is hard to describe. In my mind, instinctive form/mindset is as close to 'pure talent' as you can get, or should I say pure mastery of using one's innate ability to apply the simplest of archery forms direct the arrow to where the mind wants it. 

With regard to the various style methods it's all good and they all have their place. We just have to be more open-minded/objective about the pros and cons of each style, and determine the best fit for the job at hand.


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## BLACK WOLF

webster2, 

:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

Instinctive archers can have rigorous and consistent form. Just my observation that most don't. There are advantages to instinctive archery, but disadvantages as well.


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## David Alford

I'll add that under the umbrella of instinctive archery, my most severe criticism is with the swing draw style esp. for hunting. Yet it is highly touted as the ultimate hunting method. Refutation in print would take a whole chapter but I'll leave it do the reader to contemplate a priori if swinging ones bow arm up with game at relatively close quarters makes any sense at all. And good luck trying it in the relatively tight quarters of a hunting blind.


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## BLACK WOLF

Something to consider...a bowhunter doesn't walk around the woods or sit in their treestands with their bow arm up and ready at all times. Every archer must swing or move their bow arm up into position to shoot. 

A good bowhunter knows how and when to lift their arm into position. 

A good bowhunter will also have learned multiple techniques on how to draw the bow for a specific situation.

The swing draw technique can be executed slowly. It doesn't have to be fast.

The swing draw technique can be very effective in hunting circumstances.

Ray :shade:


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## 337088

ncheels said:


> These illustrations are based on pre-draw. How many people aim from pre-draw (then simply draw and release) and how many aim while at anchor?


Remember: everyone has their own methods. Aiming while drawing then when you anchor everything should be lined up to shoot. Aiming while anchoring may lose time.


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## David Alford

Yes, you have to get the bow arm up at some point but one can do that long in advance. I usually hold the bow and bow hand close to my face and then slowly extend the bow toward the game before starting the draw. There is no other method that will produce as small a movement to get the arm up. This has the added advantage of hiding the face somewhat, esp. with a bow quiver. But the main point is there is a lot less movement than in swinging the bow arm up at the moment of the shot, even if that movement is slow. And if the bow arm is already extended before the shot opportunity, there is no bow movement other than the bending of the limbs. That's an advantage. Hunting is hard, I want all the reasonable advantages esp. those that are nonmechanical/nontechnical.

Yes, one can wait for game to be looking directly away, but that may not develop esp. if one is calling game. I'm not saying an experienced bowhunter can't be successful with a swing arm technique, it's just something that a priori (unnecessary movement) is a disadvantage esp. for movement sensitive game (e.g. deer).

Additionally, swing draw archers may find themselves having to use an entirely different method when hunting from a blind. If I had to put a number on it, I say the movement in the swing arm technique adds up to about a 20% disadvantage relative to getting the shot off or not on close game. Personally, I find this unacceptable, even if the disadvantage was less 10%. Yes, those are just my guesstimate numbers, others may disagree.

I hunt desert mule deer on public lands and it's arguably one of the toughest hunts in N. America. I may only get one short opportunity in a season, I can't be successful using techniques that unnecessarily handicap me. And take my advice when you do get a hard earned shot opportunity, don't miss...


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## BLACK WOLF

Any good and experienced bowhunter will know that there are specific ways to draw a bow under specific circumstances to become successful. The Swing Draw is just one of those choices that a bowhunter can choose from to be successful under a specific circumstance.

The more opportunities a bowhunter can make the more successful they can be if they have practiced effectively for those different circumstances.

It's as simple as that!

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

I will say using the swing draw along with a back quiver and handling the arrows by their nocks in the style of John Schultz is a beautiful free flowing method, esp. for shots at moving targets.


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## 337088

David Alford said:


> I will say using the swing draw along with a back quiver and handling the arrows by their nocks in the style of John Schultz is a beautiful free flowing method, esp. for shots at moving targets.


I agree, the hip side quiver gets in the way and it's a awkward set placing. When going through the woods it gets caught on the bushes.


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> The problem with many if not most instinctive shooting is that the anchor, head position, and draw are too inconsistent and accuracy is very difficult. IMO, talent is overplayed. Even a person with talent cannot be consistent
> if those problems are not solved. The best instinctive archers are those who shoot more of a tournament style with serious intent given to minimizing variation in form.


Inconsistent. ..perhaps to a shooter who has only learned how to shoot a bow in a very rigid manner.

While some like yourself feel anything less than picture perfect book written " _form_ " is inconsistency. .those like yourself forget your not shooting for score but to kill...and you don't need to shoot the highest scores to make a killing shot in the vital zone. While a heart shot as opposed to a lung shot may garner a higher score on a 3d shoot, a double lung shot suffices just as well on a game animal. .dead is dead...

Now...as to the swing draw being a handicap in tight places or a ground blind, I can tell you have not practiced that particular style in the proper fashion. ..The swing draw done correctly is 1 fluid motion from a relaxed position . It's not rigid, it doesn't need to be all prim and proper like most target archery styles to be deadly accurate on game.

Also..if you think you are at a disadvantage using the swing draw on a wary buck coming in from calling or rattling..you have never seen it executed properly by a stalking hunter..we to use calling methods..and are sometimes tucked into blow downs and ground cover...you draw and shoot as the shot dictates...sometimes very fast...sometimes more deliberately and slowly...but always without ridgidity...and tension. It's not in a herky jerky manner that spooks game and can be executed properly from any possible position the hunter is in at the moment. 

About target accuracy vs hunting accuracy...is a swing draw method of shooting the best for putting arrow after arrow into the smallest size group at 90 meters...hell no..No sane ethical hunter will every try to do this at a animal. ..this style is not ment to do this, even though there are some guys who can. .Target accuracy at that distance requires concrete repeatable form and a true aiming method to succeed to be accurate. and the name of that game is not hunting but scoring...2 vastly different events.

Lastly. ..and this is not a slam so please don't take it as such. ..

Those that have learned what many proclaim as proper form and how to execute a shot always try to transpose their style to the hunting feild.To them and I have heard this quite a lot. .mediocre shooting...by those who shoot differently...will never be as accurate and wound game mire often. ..because of what a few individuals do at a 3d shoot or someones score. ..Don't base the methods accuracy as a whole on this...why..because for those of us who primarily hunt...no 3d shoot, event, ,compitition will ever allow the mindset we need to succeed in the feild..just as taking a strictly tournament target archer on a stalk through varied terrain crawling through brushand vines shooting from thier knees...Bith individuals are out of their respective elements. ..and need familiarity to do their best. Both types of shooting as Ray has said and i fully agree are valid..both can take game if done correctly..learn both..and you are never at a disadvantage...where ever you are shooting. .the shot will dictate which method to use.

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF

Mac,

:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

"While some like yourself feel anything less than picture perfect book written " form " is inconsistency. .those like yourself forget your not shooting for score but to kill...and you don't need to shoot the highest scores to make a killing shot in the vital zone. While a heart shot as opposed to a lung shot may garner a higher score on a 3d shoot, a double lung shot suffices just as well on a game animal. .dead is dead...Now...as to the swing draw being a handicap in tight places or a ground blind, I can tell you have not practiced that particular style in the proper fashion..."

You are wrong on all accounts. I am primarily a hunter and I don't recommend stylized target archery form for hunting. I developed an entirely new method primarily for hunters. However, if one is so bold as to experiment with a target bow using sights as well as a peep sight after awhile something should become obvious. One simply cannot vary head and eye position by more than a fraction of an inch and expect consistent accuracy even at traditional bowhunting ranges. Ditto for torquing the bow. We still even haven't figured it other accuracy busters such as inconsistent draw and the problems of holding steady with bow hunting draw weights. Or the problem of getting a decent release when you can hardly feel your finders or back muscles due to the cold.

My experience in observing hunting accuracy or the lack of it goes far beyond watching a few mediocre trad. shots at a tournament. I first started in archery in the early 60's.

And, yes, I certainly have practiced swing draw in ground blind both constructed and pop up blinds of which I have nearly a dozen. I simply stated my considered opinion that it is not the best method and from what I've seen with other swing draw bowhunters, they usually revert to a static draw or compromised swing draw when actually hunting from a blind. Of course much depends upon how big the blind is and who big the shot opening is. And I certainly don't deny that some will argue these concerns don't apply to them.


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## David Alford

I wrote "the problem of getting a decent release when you can hardly feel your finders or back muscles due to the cold." 


Should read fingers not finders. 

I agree with the concept of real world bowhunting vs. stylized target form. But if one really is honest, there are many inherent problems in trad archery especially in real world hunting situations. Fortunately, almost every problem has a solution.


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> You are wrong on all accounts. I am primarily a hunter and I don't recommend stylized target archery form for hunting. I developed an entirely new method primarily for hunters. However, if one is so bold as to experiment with a target bow using sights as well as a peep sight after awhile something should become obvious. One simply cannot vary head and eye position by more than a fraction of an inch and expect consistent accuracy even at traditional bowhunting ranges. Ditto for torquing the bow. We still even haven't figured it other accuracy busters such as inconsistent draw and the problems of holding steady with bow hunting draw weights. Or the problem of getting a decent release when you can hardly feel your finders or back muscles due to the cold.
> 
> My experience in observing hunting accuracy or the lack of it goes far beyond watching a few mediocre trad. shots at a tournament. I first started in archery in the early 60's.
> 
> And, yes, I certainly have practiced swing draw in ground blind both constructed and pop up blinds of which I have nearly a dozen. I simply stated my considered opinion that it is not the best method and from what I've seen with other swing draw bowhunters, they usually revert to a static draw or compromised swing draw when actually hunting from a blind. Of course much depends upon how big the blind is and who big the shot opening is. And I certainly don't deny that some will argue these concerns don't apply to them.


No..I'm not incorrect...if you honestly believe you can not be accurate at " trad distances" if you vary your head angle or eye position a fraction of a inch..you aren't shooting pure instinctive..or you just haven't shot your bow enough from various draws in all manner of positions..

See..ive been shooting since 1963..and have been around enough to know exactly what my rig will do..Try shooting hunched over under a blow down with the bow horizontal..try it.see if you cant become consistent at 10 yards. ..no it's not a everyday shot..but I've taken deer before doing it..why..because I practice it..and am not trying to have perfect book form..

Why in blue blazes would I as a instinctive archer choose to put a damn peep and sights on my bow????????? To me that is ridiculous. .I might as well be shooting a frigging compound. .

If I choose to. .I can shoot all forms of aiming....but choose instinctively. .and don't need to be perfect to be successful at hunting. ..as to "holding steady with cold or numb fingers"...seriously. ..swing draw isn't about holding steady..it's about drawing smoothly....and releasing cleanly...fast or slow...but not holding and aiming...

Mac


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## Arrowzen

I've been getting back into my archery lately and searching around on the internet on the matter which is something I normally haven't done for this particular passion of mine. Anyways I've discovered this forum and it seems like a great meeting of the minds for a most excellent sport. I just shoot for the love of it, but personally strive for as much precision as I can gather in my shots.

Anyways I found this thread to be a really thought provoking take on the traditional aiming methods. I was kind of surprised to not see anyone mention using the bow hand or knuckle as a point of distance. I know traditional archery and the body mechanics that go into it are individual for the most part but for me I find the following aspects feel the most natural. I predraw and aim with both eyes open and on the target. When aiming or snap shotting I use my bow hand and my anchor point as a reference more than anything. My bow arm feels and appears more inline with my target than the appearance of my arrow. When I draw and release I am mostly pointing my bow arm at my target. If I move consistently which I feel I do a good job of most of the time I find my shots go where I am focusing, but I do not loose until my arm and bow hand knuckles are where I feel they should be in relation to the sight picture. Sometimes this is done by visual aiming or by feel at closer ranges.

Just getting back into archery after a few years I am working on ironing out my form using my 35# Howatt which has always been my favorite traditional brand and some premade easton target arrows because they were cheap. I am getting some decent groups (4"-6")with my non matched setup at 20-30 yards, not bad for something I haven't taken the time to make and measure myself I think.

I've tried shooting using the arrow point or shaft as my point of distance but for some reason it feels very unnatural. Like I feel much more tension in my string hand and wrist when I position myself to aim like that. However using my forward hand as if that is where I am thrusting the arrow seems totally natural, and when I am shooting longer distances (~60 yards) I still go mostly off of the feel and pitch of my bow arm. 

I suppose my addition to this thread would be to shoot in a way that takes both consideration of moving your body consistently and how you personally fit to your bow. For me this means that no matter how much logical sense goes into a method, it will not work if there is strain and unnatural resistance in a particular form.


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## 337088

I didn't see a question. But you said "my arm is in line with the target" I think you should have your arm bent a little to avoid the string.


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## Arrowzen

THEFOREVERMAN said:


> I didn't see a question. But you said "my arm is in line with the target" I think you should have your arm bent a little to avoid the string.


That is true. I do have a slight bend in the forward elbow. I should have been more clear on my meaning, rather "the plane or direction of projection of my bow arm" is what I notice and focus more on in my sight picture. It's a tip I picked up some time ago from watching Jeff Kavanaugh shooting tips, I'm sure he could explain it better. I take his tips as golden, he's my archery hero, and I just admire his style.
Nope no question, just talking a little bit about unorthodox aiming/shooting methods that work for some.


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## 337088

Kodos


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## David Alford

MAC 11700 said:


> No..I'm not incorrect...if you honestly believe you can not be accurate at " trad distances" if you vary your head angle or eye position a fraction of a inch..you aren't shooting pure instinctive..or you just haven't shot your bow enough from various draws in all manner of positions..
> 
> See..ive been shooting since 1963..and have been around enough to know exactly what my rig will do..Try shooting hunched over under a blow down with the bow horizontal..try it.see if you cant become consistent at 10 yards. ..no it's not a everyday shot..but I've taken deer before doing it..why..because I practice it..and am not trying to have perfect book form..
> 
> Why in blue blazes would I as a instinctive archer choose to put a damn peep and sights on my bow????????? To me that is ridiculous. .I might as well be shooting a frigging compound. .
> 
> If I choose to. .I can shoot all forms of aiming....but choose instinctively. .and don't need to be perfect to be successful at hunting. ..as to "holding steady with cold or numb fingers"...seriously. ..swing draw isn't about holding steady..it's about drawing smoothly....and releasing cleanly...fast or slow...but not holding and aiming...
> 
> Mac


Mac you're wrong in your accusation in your earlier post directed toward me. You seem to think I am strict form target archer who has little hunting experience. That is simply false.

Regarding my comment to try a sight and peep sight you missed the point. I wasn't recommending you use it for hunting; rather it will demonstrate what causes inaccuracy i.e. slight variance of head position, bow grip torque, etc. 

The criticisms of the swing arm instinctive method are not my pet theory. Many great shots agree. Even the top instinctive shots such as Rick Welch do, too. I will grant it works best for certain type of shooting, flying birds, running game, etc.


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## David Alford

And btw, re: "holding steady with cold or numb fingers" you misquoted me. I referenced holding steady with hunting weight bows.


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## David Alford

I'll make this analogy. Try shooting an accurate rifle with iron sights. One can be very accurate. Then start moving one's head position around so the sight picture is no longer the same and simply not using the sights. Why in the world would one try to hunt with a rifle swinging it up for a quick instinctive shot except in rare circumstances? It would not be a preferred method by even 10% of rifle hunters, but yet in archery this is supposed to be the holy grail method. I think not...


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## Derriick

Nice post, i shoot instinctive.


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> I'll make this analogy. Try shooting an accurate rifle with iron sights. One can be very accurate. Then start moving one's head position around so the sight picture is no longer the same and simply not using the sights. Why in the world would one try to hunt with a rifle swinging it up for a quick instinctive shot except in rare circumstances? It would not be a preferred method by even 10% of rifle hunters, but yet in archery this is supposed to be the holy grail method. I think not...


I've thought about this kind of relation myself when it comes to shooting in general, and I'd say you are right in principle. However the number one difference between a gun and archery shooting is the sheer amount of bodily movement that is required to shoot an arrow versus a bullet. We are talking about traditional bows here so there are no stabilizers, sights, pulleys...well not on my bows at least. Anyhow my point being that when shooting a gun accurately minimal to zero movement is preferred, when shooting a recurve bow alot of body movement is required to even ready your shot.

I think when dealing within the ranges that arrows are most effective and with the amount body motion it takes for one to shoot a bow it should be at least understandable that instictive shooting goes hand in hand with the bow. A traditional bow of any sorts is a fairly instintive weapon in essence, made from wood, resins, sinew, and fibers, all powered by your own muscles. It seems only natural to tune the bow to yourself.

I am in no way saying that an aiming system is bad. I shoot rifles, pistols, and bows so I can appreciate the different disciplines. I would say that you are correct when it comes to shooting a bow at long distances that a measured sight and aiming system would give the most consistent result, but I would also say that if I am shooting at things so far away that demand such accuracy I will use a different tool for the job. Like my AR15.


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## David Alford

Arrowzen said:


> I've thought about this kind of relation myself when it comes to shooting in general, and I'd say you are right in principle. However the number one difference between a gun and archery shooting is the sheer amount of bodily movement that is required to shoot an arrow versus a bullet.


No more movement is required to shoot an arrow than pull a rifle trigger/shoot a bullet. Yes, you have to load (draw) a bow, but that does not imply it has to be part of the shooting cycle despite the fact is is with the swing draw method. Not to forgot, one has to load a rifle and shoulder it.

The best archery and rifle shots are all about minimizing movement. Holding a bow steady is an elemental ingredient to accuracy, an element that is give minimal value in the swing arm draw because it is only given a minimal interval vs. a more deliberate interval. No surprise the holding interval is not minimized among the best instinctive shots. For example, Rick Welch's instructional mantra is "hold, hold, hold, hold..." Of course, one can hold too long and accuracy deteriorates, the same as in shooting a rifle.


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## Arrowzen

My main point of contrast between firing a gun vs a bow would be the muscle groups required to hold a drawn bow and those required to pull a trigger. Much less muscle intensive in all aspects was my point for saying.

Thanks for bringing up the deliberate holding interval. I really just like reading about all of the different methods and philosophies on aiming and shooting as I try to learn something from each one that I can do. Me personally the more I think about being accurate and aiming the more inconsistent my shooting is, sometimes it just goes way bad when trying new things. I believe in my case I am just over thinking things when trying something new.

I like to practice my look at something and shoot it style. It is what I am best at and I enjoy it. Of course this way works best for close to medium range shots at most. If I had a horse I would practice horse archery no doubt which obviously allows for no steady measured aiming. Now when it comes to long range accurate shooters, I am trying to pick up as much as I can from them as that is my weak point.


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## 337088

Have you read. Zen in the Art of Archery, Eugen Herrigel, with an introduction by D.T. Suzuki, translated by R.F.C. Hull, Vintage Books, 1989


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## Arrowzen

I'll give it a look, thanks.


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## 337088

I've never read it. It's on my list. I'm reading Hagakure: book of the samurai


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> The best archery and rifle shots are all about minimizing movement.


Maybe with unanimated, non-moving targets...but where the targets are moving or a quick shot is needed those archers are gonna fall behind.



David Alford said:


> Holding a bow steady is an elemental ingredient to accuracy, an element that is give minimal value in the swing arm draw because it is only given a minimal interval vs. a more deliberate interval. No surprise the holding interval is not minimized among the best instinctive shots. For example, Rick Welch's instructional mantra is "hold, hold, hold, hold..." Of course, one can hold too long and accuracy deteriorates, the same as in shooting a rifle.


Just a heads up...be careful when including Rick Welch as an example of a True Instinctive shooter. His explanation to his style of shooting is really no different than how many experienced Gap shooters aim, who focus only on the target. 

There's a difference in True Instinctive Aiming and the 'instinctive' aiming technique many try to describe.

There's also a reason why the swing draw and snap shooting techniques are effectively used with True Instinctive Aiming.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF

Arrowzen said:


> Now when it comes to long range accurate shooters, I am trying to pick up as much as I can from them as that is my weak point.


You can do what I and some archers have learned to do...which is...learn multiple aiming techniques....so you can choose the right one for the right circumstance.

I've taught myself how to aim True Instinctive, Gapstinctive (the name I use to describe what many believe to be Instinctive Aiming), Gap, Split Vision and Point of Aim.

You should also decide on what kind of archer you want to be.

I personally wanted to be able to shoot at just about any target and hit it...no matter what the circumstances were. Most of my shots are taken while aiming Gapstinctive because I'm primarily a bowhunter but as the target's distance gets closer to my POD (Point On Distance) I'll switch over to Split Vision or Point of Aim.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

Arrowzen said:


> My main point of contrast between firing a gun vs a bow would be the muscle groups required to hold a drawn bow and those required to pull a trigger. Much less muscle intensive in all aspects was my point for saying.


But pulling a trigger is not necessarily more muscle intensive that relaxing the fingers. Sure, some archers use back tension but not all. In fact with some of the release methods I've developed, there is a strong similarity to pulling a trigger.

Further, quite a few muscles are involved in shouldering a rifle and holding it steady whereas top archers use "bone on bone" in the draw so I'm not sure your argument has any merit at all especially in regard to the critical moment of the shot itself. Some top archery shots have virtually no movement during and after the release. Others more, it just depends...but w/o a doubt movement can really be minimized to the equivalent of pulling a trigger. In fact, why don't you try pulling your index finger as a release method from anchor...


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## David Alford

BLACK WOLF said:


> Maybe with unanimated, non-moving targets...but where the targets are moving or a quick shot is needed those archers are gonna fall behind.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a heads up...be careful when including Rick Welch as an example of a True Instinctive shooter. His explanation to his style of shooting is really no different than how many experienced Gap shooters aim, who focus only on the target.
> 
> There's a difference in True Instinctive Aiming and the 'instinctive' aiming technique many try to describe.
> 
> There's also a reason why the swing draw and snap shooting techniques are effectively used with True Instinctive Aiming.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Welch insists he is instinctive but otherwise I agree with your point.


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> Further, quite a few muscles are involved in shouldering a rifle and holding it steady whereas top archers use "bone on bone" in the draw so I'm not sure your argument has any merit at all especially in regard to the critical moment of the shot itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Aww and I thought we were talking with an open mind....sad. Ever fired a gun laying prone? Ever tried to shoot a bow laying prone? If you want to think that aiming and shooting a gun and a bow are one in the same that is fine with me. I'm not going to stray this thread off course any more with the comparison and contrast of the two.
Click to expand...


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## 337088

Aww and I thought we were talking with an open mind....sad. Ever fired a gun laying prone? Ever tried to shoot a bow laying prone? If you want to think that aiming and shooting a gun and a bow are one in the same that is fine with me. I'm not going to stray this thread off course any more with the comparison and contrast of the two.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should all watch my video I posted on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch_videos...UnevLGOj0,nGST0DorMwc,V1MpohqzgEg,jEGTXXjlLYw


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## Arrowzen

Ok a little bit of explanation on my part: The prone firing reference I made was to show how much more bodily movement and muscular action is REQUIRED to shoot a bow vs a gun which some have stated is quite the same. Back a few posts I was just saying that I believe this aspect made comparing measured aiming of a gun vs measured aiming of a bow a bad comparison.

A rifle in a prone supported position is the most steady firing position one can have without hard mounting a gun and only requires a single hand with barely any strength to perform. A bow always has to be drawn, moved to aquire aim again, and properly released, making it an ideal instictive weapon since it always takes a considerable amount of one's own movement to shoot. Of course hip firing a gun would be instinctive shooting as well.

Forgive me for trying to speak in absolutes of which one plainly takes more or less physical exhertion to fire.


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## David Alford

Arrowzen, it took a lot of muscular movement to get into a prone firing position, did it not? More so than raising a bow. My point is that firing a bow can take no more movement than typically raising and firing a rifle. FACT. I'm sorry if you think this is like pole vaulting. The best shots minimize movement and variance, and one can literally release the string by the slightest movement. Even when shoulder action is involved the movement to trigger the shot from anchor is perhaps 1/4-1/2"". Most trigger pulls on a rifle are about that as well.

Archery is not riflemanship, but those capable of thinking outside the box will learn something by the comparison. As a matter of fact, ditto for investigating just why compound archers are generally more accurate. Currently, trad. archers are on the lowest rung of the totem pole as far as accuracy, and it doesn't have to be that way. That said, nothing is free...complexity may necessarily be added, but the astute know how to minimize those elements so the purity of trad. archery can me retained.
There is a wide array of options...more so than the most know or have even been written about.


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> Archery is not riflemanship, but those capable of thinking outside the box will learn something by the comparison. As a matter of fact, ditto for investigating just why compound archers are generally more accurate. Currently, trad. archers are on the lowest rung of the totem pole as far as accuracy, and it doesn't have to be that way. That said, nothing is free...complexity may necessarily be added, but the astute know how to minimize those elements so the purity of trad. archery can me retained.
> There is a wide array of options...more so than the most know or have even been written about.


So far what I have picked up as learned knowledge between the two types of shooting are consistent sight picture and how to apply them to each. I would suppose the similarities one finds useful, and or connected are in the realm of opinion and preference. Which is all good. 
Since talking about this I've found that applying different techniques with the same concept as a rifleman's sight picture is a practical way of shooting of me. It makes sense and helps me with my consistency.

I have gained a little something from the talk. For me though I cannot feel a physical connection between the two. That aspect is totally different in my mind. What I feel and concentrate on while shooting a rifle is nothing close to where I place myself when behind a bow, but hey that is just me.

I found a really good reference to sightpicture and archery on this page from the 3 rivers site under Billy Stewart's advice. http://www.stickbow.com/FEATURES/SHOOTING/gap.CFM


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> Welch insists he is instinctive but otherwise I agree with your point.


And I believe him...based on 'HIS' definition of what he thinks 'instinctive aiming' is...but based on his video description...his aiming technique is almost exactly like my Gapstinctive method and those that have been Gap shooting for years and ONLY look at the target.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF

Arrowzen said:


> For me though I cannot feel a physical connection between the two. That aspect is totally different in my mind. What I feel and concentrate on while shooting a rifle is nothing close to where I place myself when behind a bow, but hey that is just me.


Keep in mind....there are some people who believe they are utilizing the 'best' techniques when compared to other archers and feel their techniques are far superior...but the truth is...there's a reason why there are so many different techniques and styles of archery. It's based on the Goals, Abilities and Personality of individual archers.

For me...it just seems like common sense why there are a variety of styles and techniques to choose from that don't necessarily follow a FITA target manual and why there isn't any one 'best' method for everyone. It's because a G.A.P. profile won't be exactly the same for all archers.



Arrowzen said:


> I found a really good reference to sightpicture and archery on this page from the 3 rivers site under Billy Stewart's advice.


That's a great article.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

Ray, true enough...


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> Mac you're wrong in your accusation in your earlier post directed toward me. You seem to think I am strict form target archer who has little hunting experience. That is simply false.
> 
> Regarding my comment to try a sight and peep sight you missed the point. I wasn't recommending you use it for hunting; rather it will demonstrate what causes inaccuracy i.e. slight variance of head position, bow grip torque, etc.
> 
> The criticisms of the swing arm instinctive method are not my pet theory. Many great shots agree. Even the top instinctive shots such as Rick Welch do, too. I will grant it works best for certain type of shooting, flying birds, running game, etc.


The swing draw works well on stationary targets as well. It takes training, just like any other type of shooting. ..and just like any other type of shooting. ..some are capable. .some aren't. 

Mac


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## steve morley

I think you guys should have started your own thread instead of watering down this informative sticky thread, just my 2 cents :sad:


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## BLACK WOLF

steve morley said:


> I think you guys should have started your own thread instead of watering down this informative sticky thread, just my 2 cents :sad:


I pretty much agree....but most of the really good meaty info is near the beginning of the thread. This is just more or less just the scrapes or minor details which still relates to some of the different aiming and shooting techniques.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

Mac, re: "some are capable...some aren't" I disagree. It seems to be typical to blame talent or the lack of it. The problem isn't us humans in all our "averageness", the problem is either the teacher's fault, the lack of a teacher, and/or a method that isn't user friendly. Take your pick. I get sick of people blaming lack of talent. I think TV remotes should be more user friendly as well...ditto for most instructions as well. How about some clear pics with clear instruction to assemble the gizmo you ordered...
do I digress, I think not...


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## David Alford

RE: "I think you guys should have started your own thread instead of watering down this informative sticky thread, just my 2 cents" - I prefer "organic" threads vs. linear one's myself as they often produce some unexpected nuggets of wisdom. Sometimes there is more insight in a handful of archery forum debates than the sum value of many skimpy archery books, as a matter of fact.


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## David Alford

I throw this out...one of the major problems not often addressed with both so called instinctive shooting as well as definite gap shooting is the diameter of the arrow tip. It gets even worse when a broadhead is at the end of your arrow. Have the proponents of these methods studied how imprecise a reference, directly or indirectly, such a blob is past 25 yes? Inaccuracy is virtually built in, so I wouldn't start blaming the archers so called "lack of talent". Good grief, that's not the real problem.


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## David Alford

If you want improvement, address the problem. List em' all out, as there are many...and all have solutions, btw.


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## David Alford

should read..."past 25 yds." And still a significant problem under 25 yds. as a matter of fact.


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## MAC 11700

Dave...the sad truth is some people can't walk and chew gum, let alone learn how to shoot a bow...so I'm sorry. ..I'll stick with some can and some can't instead of blaming the instructors or the method. 

The swing draw method is a lot easier to learn than dealing with a Olympic style and all that entails. .but folks can over complicate just about anything if they want. .

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF

It should be a no brainer to the more experienced archers...especially the archers who have actually tried aiming True Instinctive...that the advantages to aiming Instinctive are seen at distances of 30yrds. and under...generally speaking.

There are a few reason why many archers give up on Instinctive Aiming and learn a different technique.

Here are a few.

#1. They lack the hand and eye coordination to make it really effective.
#2. They are looking for more precision to be competitive
#3. They like accurately hitting targets much further than just 30yrds. or less.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

I'm still sticking to my claim that eye hand coordination is over rated in archery. The fact is the methods suk as well as the instruction. I'm on the side of the average human being, who in my opinion, has all the eye hand coordination necessary to be an excellent shot. The methods are inferior, not the human. Steve Jobs espoused a similar philosophy when it came to technology. It's not the humans fault, it's the idiots who don't make technology human friendly.

There are many ways the average archer will fail. But they are not what has failed, the methods and instruction have failed. Most don't even get proper instruction. Most don't even get excellent arrow flight. Most don't even tune properly, so how can the be expected to be accurate?

For that matter, how can the average archer even take advantage of what eye hand coordination he does have with an inconsistent anchor, draw length, inferior bow grip and so forth? The whole thing is a mess with Mr. Murphy lurking everywhere. 

Every problem of being accurate has to be shut down. Then and only then will the average archer begin to shine. I've had students that have jumped for joy, danced for joy when they solved their problems. They never thought they could even shot a stick bow accurately, but they had the necessary ability all along.


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## David Alford

Here's a short list of reasons why average archers fail:

1. over bowed
2. overly short bow - finger pinch
3. inferior tab or glove
4. inferior arrow rest
5. inferior tuning
6. inferior arrow flight
7. inferior constructed grip on bow
8. inferior applied grip
9. inferior stance
10. inferior grip on string
11. inferior draw mechanics
12. inconsistent draw length
13. inferior use of muscles at anchor
14. inconsistent anchor position
15. inferior anchor position
16. inferior release mechanics
18. inconsistent release mechanics
19..inferior head position
20. inconsistent head position

I'll stop at 20, trust me there are many more. The average archer does not solve even half of these and will not have a chance to realize his inherent potential until they are.


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> Here's a short list of reasons why average archers fail:
> 
> 1. over bowed
> 2. overly short bow - finger pinch
> 3. inferior tab or glove
> 4. inferior arrow rest
> 5. inferior tuning
> 6. inferior arrow flight
> 7. inferior constructed grip on bow
> 8. inferior applied grip
> 9. inferior stance
> 10. inferior grip on string
> 11. inferior draw mechanics
> 12. inconsistent draw length
> 13. inferior use of muscles at anchor
> 14. inconsistent anchor position
> 15. inferior anchor position
> 16. inferior release mechanics
> 18. inconsistent release mechanics
> 19..inferior head position
> 20. inconsistent head position
> 
> I'll stop at 20, trust me there are many more. The average archer does not solve even half of these and will not have a chance to realize his inherent potential until they are.


Boy...what chance do us mere mortal average archers have without your holiness' s help...might as sell off all my bows and take up the rifle....not

BTW...that's 19...not 20...learn to proof read

Mac


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## David Alford

Mac, you're interested in winning an argument not in identifying why many have a tough time with archery. For #20, I'd nominate blaming one's talent or lack thereof. The converse of this is problem solving, identifying the reasons for variance in results and finding solutions.


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## David Alford

And it's the holier than thou attitude of "they just don't have sufficient eye hand coordination" that is the hard blow.


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## MAC 11700

Personally. ..I don't believe that the average archer fails...I believe he has perhaps some minor issues to overcome, but..with sites like this one. .his chances of continually improving is greatly enhanced.

Are there archers who have poor eye hand coordination. .of course there are..There are also plenty who have poor balance as well..not to mention poor eye sight..Is this their fault, or the fault of a coach or method? I hardly think so..

Most archers I know can overcome minor faults..others can't. .Some people can take instructions and retain most of the lessons or guidance. .some can't. .

Don't blame the coach, or the methodology. .it's not always to blame.

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF

MAC 11700 said:


> Personally. ..I don't believe that the average archer fails...I believe he has perhaps some minor issues to overcome, but..with sites like this one. .his chances of continually improving is greatly enhanced.
> 
> Are there archers who have poor eye hand coordination. .of course there are..There are also plenty who have poor balance as well..not to mention poor eye sight..Is this their fault, or the fault of a coach or method? I hardly think so..
> 
> Most archers I know can overcome minor faults..others can't. .Some people can take instructions and retain most of the lessons or guidance. .some can't. .
> 
> Don't blame the coach, or the methodology. .it's not always to blame.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

Poor balance? I've never seen any archer lose their balance in shooting a bow. Poor eye sight? Well ok, at some point you can come up with valid physical reasons for an archer to have significant limitations, but in talking about the average person they have average eyesight, average coordination and so forth and it is completely sufficient to be an excellent shot.

Yes, I do blame methods and instruction - but keep in mind part of the problem is that some instruction never really gets through. For starters, what has the avg. archer really learned if he's not getting great arrow flight? One might say, it's his fault, not the teacher's. But if we're talking hands on instruction as a teacher I wouldn't let the student continue until that problem was fixed. And so on down the list until all the problems are annihilated. Talking about the solutions or reading about the solutions is insufficient for change. In my experience in sports, excellence is obtained step by step vs knowing about the steps.

As the Rev. Schuller was fond of saying, inch by inch anything is a cinch...the average plodder can obtain loftier heights of excellence than most suppose. If I had a sailboat her name would be RESOLVE...I never ever quit if I want something. Too many people today are quitters and they often blame their so called lack of talent rather than their lack of resolve. And what's needed is smart resolve. Narrowing the focus is a pleasure...find the problem precisely and fix it precisely.

All of this discussion aside, some methods are simply not user friendly. Again, I do not blame those who struggle on the basis of their innate physical abilities. It's the method that fails the human, not vice versa. We are the kings here, not some dvd or book.


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## BLACK WOLF

The technique an archer chooses needs to fit their G.A.P. profile. If it doesn't...it's of little value.

What may work for one person may not work for another.

Just because someone can't effectively utilize a certain technique does NOT make a bad technique for everyone.

Every technique has it's advantages and disadvantages.

It's up to the archer to discover which techniques will help them achieve their goals.

Ray :shade:


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## 337088

But the 'one' will develop the supreme technique...


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> Poor balance? I've never seen any archer lose their balance in shooting a bow. Poor eye sight? Well ok, at some point you can come up with valid physical reasons for an archer to have significant limitations, but in talking about the average person they have average eyesight, average coordination and so forth and it is completely sufficient to be an excellent shot.
> 
> Yes, I do blame methods and instruction - but keep in mind part of the problem is that some instruction never really gets through. For starters, what has the avg. archer really learned if he's not getting great arrow flight? One might say, it's his fault, not the teacher's. But if we're talking hands on instruction as a teacher I wouldn't let the student continue until that problem was fixed. And so on down the list until all the problems are annihilated. Talking about the solutions or reading about the solutions is insufficient for change. In my experience in sports, excellence is obtained step by step vs knowing about the steps.
> 
> As the Rev. Schuller was fond of saying, inch by inch anything is a cinch...the average plodder can obtain loftier heights of excellence than most suppose. If I had a sailboat her name would be RESOLVE...I never ever quit if I want something. Too many people today are quitters and they often blame their so called lack of talent rather than their lack of resolve. And what's needed is smart resolve. Narrowing the focus is a pleasure...find the problem precisely and fix it precisely.
> 
> All of this discussion aside, some methods are simply not user friendly. Again, I do not blame those who struggle on the basis of their innate physical abilities. It's the method that fails the human, not vice versa. We are the kings here, not some dvd or book.


If you have never seen a archer loose their balance. .then its apparent you have never done much hunting on foot in various terrains. Balance is critical in shooting and hunting in uneven terrain.... 

As to some methods not being user friendly...I agree...it's much easier to utilize the swing draw method than the Olympic method. .but unfortunately do to some archers inability to successfully let go of trying to control the shot they aren't able to utilize the method and choose to*scoof at how easy it is and put the blame for their short comings on either the method itself or those who teachtit or use it.*

Mac


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## David Alford

I've lost balance going up and down rough terrain, but never during a shot nor have I ever seen any other archer fall over or slip during a shot. I guess it could happen, but it would be a one off type of thing vs. a problem of lack of sufficient ability.

Back to the swing arm instinctive method, I really feel a lot of it's defense is based on the fact that for some strict tournament form is found undesirable for hunting and I appreciate that line of criticism. It's partly why I rejected both alternatives and developed alternatives. As I've stated above, the swing arm instinctive style does have superior application in some types of hunting and obviously many people prefer it all around. I find it lacking, but I also find strict archery tournament form/technique lacking in some ways. If I was limited to choosing one of these two, I'd lean towards the method used by most of the IBO world champs in recent yrs. which is pretty much high anchor and sighting down the arrow. Accuracy is nonnegotiable for me and these guys have proven they are the most accurate for now at least.


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## David Alford

And that's actually a third alternative given the differences vs. say Olympic tournament style. Very applicable to hunting, it really the so called Apache method revisited and slightly modified. Severely limited for longer distance shooting, however.


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> I've lost balance going up and down rough terrain, but never during a shot nor have I ever seen any other archer fall over or slip during a shot. I guess it could happen, but it would be a one off type of thing vs. a problem of lack of sufficient ability.


An archer being off balance doesn't mean they have to fall or slip. It can simply mean that they are swaying or unbalanced as they are trying to shoot. I've seen some archers, who were so out of shape or had other physical issues where maintaining balance and stillness during the shot was very challenging.



David Alford said:


> Back to the swing arm instinctive method, I really feel a lot of it's defense is based on the fact that for some strict tournament form is found undesirable for hunting and I appreciate that line of criticism. It's partly why I rejected both alternatives and developed alternatives. As I've stated above, the swing arm instinctive style does have superior application in some types of hunting and obviously many people prefer it all around. I find it lacking, but I also find strict archery tournament form/technique lacking in some ways. If I was limited to choosing one of these two, I'd lean towards the method used by most of the IBO world champs in recent yrs. which is pretty much high anchor and sighting down the arrow. Accuracy is nonnegotiable for me and these guys have proven they are the most accurate for now at least.


This is one of your first posts I like regarding your opinion on Instinctive Aiming and/or the Swing Draw method. You weren't really attacking it or belittling it as you seem to be in previous posts.

Again...pretty much all techniques have their advantages and disadvantages...it's up to the archer to find out which ones they can exploit to the best of their ability to fulfill their specific goals.

There's a reason why not everyone can exploit the advantages that Instinctive Aiming or the Swing Draw technique have to offer...and that's because those techniques may not fit the archer's G.A.P. profile :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Macdoc18

excellent post. Can you explain "string walking"?
mlc


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## BLACK WOLF

Macdoc18 said:


> excellent post. Can you explain "string walking"?
> mlc


String Walking involves adjusting your finger position up or down the string for a specific distance while maintaining the same anchor point. An archer is basically trying to achieve the same exact sight picture for different distances.

The archer often uses Point of Aim or Pick A Point as they aim the bow or in some cases there will be a gap but it's usually very small. The idea is to be able to use the point of the arrow like a sight pin or front sight and you use your string position as a rear sight.

They often refer to the finger position as the crawl.

Generally speaking...the closer the target is...the further the fingers will be below the arrow and the closer the arrow nock will be to the eye.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso

BLACK WOLF said:


> String Walking involves adjusting your finger position up or down the string for a specific distance while maintaining the same anchor point. An archer is basically trying to achieve the same exact sight picture for different distances.
> 
> The archer often uses Point of Aim or Pick A Point as they aim the bow or in some cases there will be a gap but it's usually very small. The idea is to be able to use the point of the arrow like a sight pin or front sight and you use your string position as a rear sight.
> 
> They often refer to the finger position as the crawl.
> 
> Generally speaking...the closer the target is...the further the fingers will be below the arrow and the closer the arrow nock will be to the eye.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Just to expand on Rays explanation, string walkers will generally shoot certain closer yardages with a higher anchor so they don't have to go down the string a long ways. Once they get to their point on distance, many drop down to a lower anchor to get the longer distances. Facewalking as well as stringwalking.


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## David Alford

Good posts by all even those who hold a contrary position to my posts. I'll leave with this thought: the giant "X" on the archery treasure maps lies in reducing variance. Variance is Mr. Murphy's playground and he needs to get kicked out of the archery park...let him mess with golfers, etc.


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## MAC 11700

Like I have said. ..if you believe balance issues are 1 off situations..you've never hunted in varied terrain..Try standing on a steep uneven slippery slope and be perfectly balanced..or..have perfect posture..You might if you are hunting or shooting on flat ground..Something else..I go to the animals I hunt..not sitting and waiting on them...I choose the method to shoot. .depending on the occasion. .not any other way. If I/we lock ourselves into 1 style of shooting...as a hunter..I/we won't be prepared to shoot if needed to be if the footing isn't perfect or if needing to shoot quickly...I refuse to say I have failed because I am not shooting in someone else's prescribed manner because I may or may not score higher in some tournament..based on percentages. Bow Hunting is just as much of archery as any tournament. ..and some here need to remember that it's not all primm & proper in it's execution. 


Mac


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> I'll leave with this thought: the giant "X" on the archery treasure maps lies in reducing variance. Variance is Mr. Murphy's playground and he needs to get kicked out of the archery park...let him mess with golfers, etc.


All I will say to that is the different schools of thought between people who operate in a controlled environment vs those who operate in the field will always be two different worlds. One side tries to remove all of the elements that make the other one what it is.

I will take advice from target shooters on how make my own actions as controlled as possible, and then I will borrow the rest of the advice from all of the instinctives and hunters out there who apply it outside of a measured range.


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## Arrowwood

It's not as if field ranges and 3D always have good footing available. And if you ever go to archery tournaments, you'll find that the vast majority are bowhunters too. All three of the last men's US olympic archery team are hunters.


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## Arrowzen

Arrowwood said:


> It's not as if field ranges and 3D always have good footing available. And if you ever go to archery tournaments, you'll find that the vast majority are bowhunters too. All three of the last men's US olympic archery team are hunters.


That's not really what I was getting at Arrowwood. More or less the point that under full form and firing critique while at a range every detail will be made out to be a statistic or correction or a flaw. Where as the very same aspects become a necessity in other usually outdoor locations. The thinking that this "one" thing (whatever that may be) you are doing wrong is causing your shots to be bad, when in another situation that would be a factor forced upon you: Be it stance, reaction time, visibility, room to move, the list goes on. Just being able to look at your target and shoot it without so much over analysis has it's perks.

That is what I mean. Just two totally different ways of thinking about and dealing with shooting.

EDIT: I acknowledge the obvious advantages of the various aiming techniques. Heck I am trying to get better at that myself. Just saying:Two sides of the same coin, we all like shooting bows here.


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## MAC 11700

Arrowwood said:


> It's not as if field ranges and 3D always have good footing available. And if you ever go to archery tournaments, you'll find that the vast majority are bowhunters too. All three of the last men's US olympic archery team are hunters.


Just because they are hunters doesn't mean a great deal since there are many different ways considered hunting...and in all of the 3d shoots I've attended. I haven't encountered one that has some of the hunting situations I encounter on a normal basis where I hunt....some...but if they had to shoot from some of my locations...there would be many claiming foul...and lodging complaints...

Many here only hunt from tree stands or blinds. ..and that is a world of difference between how some people hunt.

Knowing how to shoot in all styles is what works best for me..Like I said. ..I let the shot dictate the method....that's the pessimistic optimistic in me...

Mac


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## David Alford

MAC 11700 said:


> Like I have said. ..if you believe balance issues are 1 off situations..you've never hunted in varied terrain..Try standing on a steep uneven slippery slope and be perfectly balanced..or..have perfect posture..You might if you are hunting or shooting on flat ground..Something else..I go to the animals I hunt..not sitting and waiting on them...I choose the method to shoot. .depending on the occasion. .not any other way. If I/we lock ourselves into 1 style of shooting...as a hunter..I/we won't be prepared to shoot if needed to be if the footing isn't perfect or if needing to shoot quickly...I refuse to say I have failed because I am not shooting in someone else's prescribed manner because I may or may not score higher in some tournament..based on percentages. Bow Hunting is just as much of archery as any tournament. ..and some here need to remember that it's not all primm & proper in it's execution.
> 
> 
> Mac


No, I honestly have never slipped or fallen or lost significant balance on any shot in my entire hunting career which started a half century ago. I am primarily a hunter, not a tournament archer and my terrain experience is probably wider than average as I put in a lot of days afield and have been doing it for a long time. 

No, you haven't failed if you are happy with your skills. That's really the litmus test. 

However, I doubt more than 10% of trad. bowhunters are really happy with their accuracy. If one were to do a survey, the answer to such a survey question would be highly dependent on how the question is posited. Probably not many would admit they are inaccurate or simply can't shoot well. 

I have done a mini survey on the bowsite asking how many would drop the compound and switch to a recurve or longbow if they could be satisfied with their shooting accuracy and a high percentage said they would switch if accuracy issues could be solved to their satisfaction. A LOT of trad archers get target panic at one time or another or still have it, and that's another indication there is a significant problem out there in trad. archery land.


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## BLACK WOLF

Just for clarification....trad archer's aren't the ONLY one's who get TP. I've known plenty of archers who use compound bows who struggle with TP. I was one of them

Ray :shade:


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## jkm97

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just for clarification....trad archer's aren't the ONLY one's who get TP. I've known plenty of archers who use compound bows who struggle with TP. I was one of them
> 
> Ray :shade:


Very true. I'm pretty new to trad, but I spent 18 years with wheels and saw plenty of people with TP. Luckily I was never one of them.


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## DDSHOOTER

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just for clarification....trad archer's aren't the ONLY one's who get TP. I've known plenty of archers who use compound bows who struggle with TP. I was one of them
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray, glad to meet one. That is the main reason I now shoot BB. However, I still find I have the same aiming problems, but no TP with a recurve. Was told by a freind that if he feels any TP coming on He just gets out the recurve and shoot it for awhile. I really wanted to go back to a more natural aiming routine. With Compounds you can get to mechanical at times. 
DD
DD


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## grantmac

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just for clarification....trad archer's aren't the ONLY one's who get TP. I've known plenty of archers who use compound bows who struggle with TP. I was one of them
> 
> Ray :shade:


I punch triggers with the best of them. Just like I can have problems sight-picture shooting with a recurve, it's a constant internal battle.

Oddly enough no problem with guns, pistols or BT releases.

-Grant


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## David Alford

I haven't heard of that many Olympic style archers getting TP. Not necessarily those who are Olympians but the method itself which emphasizes the use of back muscles in the release. Certainly, many compound users punch the release and certainly a lot of trad archers don't use back muscles properly. So I believe this is where a lot of the problems begin and I'd say TP is most common in swing draw users out of all archers. 

Of course TP is a big topic with many varieties so it's all too easy to generalize.


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## DDSHOOTER

Grant just pointed out what TP was. Internal battle. Happen to all forms of archers.
DD


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## David Alford

DDSHOOTER said:


> Grant just pointed out what TP was. Internal battle. Happen to all forms of archers.
> DD


External factors may also be involved. Such as certain techniques for shooting the bow (take a guess) that lend themselves to TP. Even the bow itself may be a contributory factor.


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## DDSHOOTER

David Alford said:


> External factors may also be involved. Such as certain techniques for shooting the bow (take a guess) that lend themselves to TP. Even the bow itself may be a contributory factor.


Yes, that can be true. But, mine came from anticipation of the sight picture/shot. Jimmy Blackmon wrote about this problem on his web page and it is a internal battle. As I said above "I really wanted to go back to a more natural aiming routine." Sooner or later you have to been happy with all the external factors and let the shot happen. Less to think about. Let the shot feel and look right. That's all I am trying to say. 
DD


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> No, I honestly have never slipped or fallen or lost significant balance on any shot in my entire hunting career which started a half century ago. I am primarily a hunter, not a tournament archer and my terrain experience is probably wider than average as I put in a lot of days afield and have been doing it for a long time.
> 
> No, you haven't failed if you are happy with your skills. That's really the litmus test.
> 
> However, I doubt more than 10% of trad. bowhunters are really happy with their accuracy. If one were to do a survey, the answer to such a survey question would be highly dependent on how the question is posited. Probably not many would admit they are inaccurate or simply can't shoot well.
> 
> I have done a mini survey on the bowsite asking how many would drop the compound and switch to a recurve or longbow if they could be satisfied with their shooting accuracy and a high percentage said they would switch if accuracy issues could be solved to their satisfaction. A LOT of trad archers get target panic at one time or another or still have it, and that's another indication there is a significant problem out there in trad. archery land.


Hmm..never huh...well that tells me that you have never hunted on the ground in uneven wet steep terrain then and as far as I am concerned. .were done here..

Mac


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## David Alford

Mac, I'm just telling you the truth. My shooting style is very stable. raising the bow slowly and then drawing back is stable. The release is a small movement. So why in the heck would I loose my balance even standing on ice? I can see how a swing arm and squat could cause an unbalanced result. I have good balance, having been a pole vaulter, but like I said in an earlier post, archery isn't pole vaulting. If you're often losing your balance, I'd question the method you using but hey just my .02...


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## David Alford

Jimmy is correct on what he wrote, but TP is a big topic. Some archers get TP because the method they are using is conducive to TP, esp. snap shooting methods or those methods which don't use back tension. That said, there are some release methods that are valid which aren't triggered by back tension, but that's another topic.


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> Mac, I'm just telling you the truth. My shooting style is very stable. raising the bow slowly and then drawing back is stable. The release is a small movement. So why in the heck would I loose my balance even standing on ice? I can see how a swing arm and squat could cause an unbalanced result. I have good balance, having been a pole vaulter, but like I said in an earlier post, archery isn't pole vaulting. If you're often losing your balance, I'd question the method you using but hey just my .02...


I shoot all methods, not just swing draw.I always have. 

My draw is smoother than most, no herky jerky movement, even when snap shooting, and I'm confident to say I have shot in just about any position possible for a archer to take game, and know full well that for anyone who says that they have never been off balance when shooting...has not shot from steep slippery extreme angles...and is full of beans...I dont believe that. .Try shooting off a 75 degree slope on loose shale...or a 70 degree slope on wet forest litter..I have.....and I have excellent balance..and know precisely what anyone experiences for these extremes..where it is damn near impossible to even keep your feet under you...let alone stand upright....and it is very apparent you've never seen them when hunting. ...........

Mac


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## David Alford

Do a google search for Dave Roberts world record pole vault. I beat Dave time and time again when we competed. I alluded to archery not being pole vaulting, but I think I can claim to being balance oriented. Now buzz off I told you the truth.


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## David Alford

Do another search for "golfer slips" and you'll get a LOT. Now search for "bowunter slips" or "archer slips" and you get zero positive results. I guess it could happen now and then on a really steep incline or on unstable ground, esp. with a swing draw and doing the swing draw crouch some proponents use. Why would I slip even on such terrain when my draw and release have virtually zero balance infringement? It's not going to happen to me and never has in half a century of bowhunting. 

I guess someone will not complain I'm bragging, none of this had to come up I told you the truth from the beginning.


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## David Alford

"now complain"


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> Do another search for "golfer slips" and you'll get a LOT. Now search for "bowunter slips" or "archer slips" and you get zero positive results. I guess it could happen now and then on a really steep incline or on unstable ground, esp. with a swing draw and doing the swing draw crouch some proponents use. Why would I slip even on such terrain when my draw and release have virtually zero balance infringement? It's not going to happen to me and never has in half a century of bowhunting.
> 
> I guess someone will not complain I'm bragging, none of this had to come up I told you the truth from the beginning.


I don't need to Google anything bud..Swing draw or Olympic style from a steep slope wet or dry..your CG is not the same as standing flat footed on flat ground..and you don't have good balance. ..this isn't a opinion. ..it is a fact....Do you think everyone myself included are idiots? Apparently you must...or just gullible enough to believe you..

Sorry. ..I don't. ..

Mac


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## David Alford

I think you may have not met many honest people and/or are clumsy and/or just like to argue. You are now on ignore.


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## MAC 11700

David Alford said:


> I think you may have not met many honest people and/or are clumsy and/or just like to argue. You are now on ignore.


No...I'm actually a hunter who knows what he is talking about. .and have shot in my described places..unlike you who hasn't and cannot understand that there are times you have to shoot while being unbalanced. .

Have a nice day bud...

Mac

Mac


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## benofthehood

Mac, what makes you think David hasn't shot in the places you described ?
Just curious ...
I have only ever hunted by stalking , and mostly in mountains etc and never had a balance issue whilst taking a shot ... If my footing was that bad, or my balance was an issue ... I wouldn't take the shot. And I am a a swing drawing instinctor .... Wish I wasn't most of the time !
Hunting the Fiordland of Sth Island New Zealand all you get is steep slopes either covered in slippery muddy ground or ice and snow ..... Doesn't mean I ain't balanced when I drop the string ...


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## DDSHOOTER

David Alford said:


> *Poor balance? I've never seen any archer lose their balance in shooting a bow.* Poor eye sight? Well ok, at some point you can come up with valid physical reasons for an archer to have significant limitations, but in talking about the average person they have average eyesight, average coordination and so forth and it is completely sufficient to be an excellent shot.
> 
> Yes, I do blame methods and instruction - but keep in mind part of the problem is that some instruction never really gets through. For starters, what has the avg. archer really learned if he's not getting great arrow flight? One might say, it's his fault, not the teacher's. But if we're talking hands on instruction as a teacher I wouldn't let the student continue until that problem was fixed. And so on down the list until all the problems are annihilated. Talking about the solutions or reading about the solutions is insufficient for change. In my experience in sports, excellence is obtained step by step vs knowing about the steps.
> 
> As the Rev. Schuller was fond of saying, inch by inch anything is a cinch...the average plodder can obtain loftier heights of excellence than most suppose. If I had a sailboat her name would be RESOLVE...I never ever quit if I want something. Too many people today are quitters and they often blame their so called lack of talent rather than their lack of resolve. And what's needed is smart resolve. Narrowing the focus is a pleasure...find the problem precisely and fix it precisely.
> 
> All of this discussion aside, some methods are simply not user friendly. Again, I do not blame those who struggle on the basis of their innate physical abilities. It's the method that fails the human, not vice versa. We are the kings here, not some dvd or book.



Why do we archers need these then? http://www.dto.com/hunting/article/693 
DD


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## MAC 11700

benofthehood said:


> Mac, what makes you think David hasn't shot in the places you described ?
> Just curious ...
> I have only ever hunted by stalking , and mostly in mountains etc and never had a balance issue whilst taking a shot ... If my footing was that bad, or my balance was an issue ... I wouldn't take the shot. And I am a a swing drawing instinctor .... Wish I wasn't most of the time !
> Hunting the Fiordland of Sth Island New Zealand all you get is steep slopes either covered in slippery muddy ground or ice and snow ..... Doesn't mean I ain't balanced when I drop the string ...


Some folks can maintain balance...some can't. .to say balance is not a consideration as he has..tells me that he hasn't. You know as well as I do..if you aren't balanced..standing on a slop up top..you will soon be at the bottom. 

Mac


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## BLACK WOLF

There seems to be a communication breakdown.

What Mac has said or tried to say....is that hunting from the ground often requires that the bowhunter modify aspects of their form and/or posture to achieve balance and execute a shot effectively when compared to how most target shooters look while on the target line. IMO...it's as simple as that.

Ray :shade:


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## benofthehood

BLACK WOLF said:


> There seems to be a communication breakdown.
> 
> What Mac has said or tried to say....is that hunting from the ground often requires that the bowhunter modify aspects of their form and/or posture to achieve balance and execute a shot effectively when compared to how most target shooters look while on the target line. IMO...it's as simple as that.
> 
> 
> 
> Ray :shade:


Still doesn't really make sense to me ... I hardly ever have shot an animal from the 'upright' target stance ... I have nearly always been on my knees , laying down , aiming straight up nearly etc etc ... But the actual mechanics of the shot are pretty much the same as when I am on the field course or throwing arrows at FITA .....

It's a moot point IMHO and all seems kinda agenda driven to separate 'styles'


Should we move this discussion elsewhere , 
Seems to be blogging up a thread designed for something else ...


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## EVLDNA

Great post OP. I can see myself coming back and reading it as reference material, while I learn to use my recurve.


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## David Alford

DD, I'm nor not sure what your point is re: the treestand safety article. Perhaps you are asking why we need safety harnesses if humans are kings of their hunting world or similar? Or did you mean why we even need treestands? If so, you misunderstand my point. I'm saying the average human is what technology and methods need to address rather than some Olympic level athlete or similar talent (eye-hand coordination masters, etc.). 

This "human" centered philosophy" can be applied to just about anything. E.g., why should chairs or shoes be made super comfortable when they could be made cheaper albeit less comfortable? The fact that we are a bit soft is not the problem. The problem is making things user friendly. From the TV remote to archery methods, I see us as being the Kings to be served by our inventions and methods. This certainly applies techniques we use in our endeavors including aiming and shooting a bow.


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## DDSHOOTER

David Alford said:


> DD, I'm nor not sure what your point is re: the treestand safety article. Perhaps you are asking why we need safety harnesses if humans are kings of their hunting world or similar? Or did you mean why we even need treestands? If so, you misunderstand my point. I'm saying the average human is what technology and methods need to address rather than some Olympic level athlete or similar talent (eye-hand coordination masters, etc.).
> 
> This "human" centered philosophy" can be applied to just about anything. E.g., why should chairs or shoes be made super comfortable when they could be made cheaper albeit less comfortable? The fact that we are a bit soft is not the problem. The problem is making things user friendly. From the TV remote to archery methods, I see us as being the Kings to be served by our inventions and methods. This certainly applies techniques we use in our endeavors including aiming and shooting a bow.


Thanks, that helped. After posting and reading other replies on Jinkster tread on snap shooting. I would have to say our invention and methods are what make us happy.
DD


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> DD, I'm nor not sure what your point is re: the treestand safety article. Perhaps you are asking why we need safety harnesses if humans are kings of their hunting world or similar? Or did you mean why we even need treestands? If so, you misunderstand my point. I'm saying the average human is what technology and methods need to address rather than some Olympic level athlete or similar talent (eye-hand coordination masters, etc.).
> 
> This "human" centered philosophy" can be applied to just about anything. E.g., why should chairs or shoes be made super comfortable when they could be made cheaper albeit less comfortable? The fact that we are a bit soft is not the problem. The problem is making things user friendly. From the TV remote to archery methods, I see us as being the Kings to be served by our inventions and methods. This certainly applies techniques we use in our endeavors including aiming and shooting a bow.


If all of that is what you believe through and through, then why don't you shoot compounds? Clearly they are technologically and methodically improved over a recurve or longbow. Or is there some element of the "human centered philosphy" as you put it that you still cling to?:teeth:


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> I'm saying the average human is what technology and methods need to address rather than some Olympic level athlete or similar talent (eye-hand coordination masters, etc.).


You have a misconception on what is needed and involved with good Instinctive Aiming and shooting.

Most archers, who pursue that style and technique are not competitive paper punchers. They pursue it because it fits their G.A.P. profile.

A good Instinctive shooter does NOT need the hand and eye coordination of an Olympian to fulfill there goals...UNLESS part of their goals involve hitting asprins out of the air or scoring a 240 or higher on a NFAA 300 round.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

Arrowzen, are you just trying to give me a hard time or don't you see what I'm really trying to say? You might as well argue why our shoes need to be that comfortable when we don't have to walk far since we can drive just about anywhere.

Within any choosen category or niche, there generally is more happiness if things can be done as efficient and as well as possible. One of my hobbies is flamenco guitar and it's a difficult thing. Within flamenco there are specific techniques that give better results than other alternatives. For example, picado can be done by the method Paco de Lucia invented or the standard method where the hand is held higher. PdL's method gives a stronger attack and with less movement. It is fundamentally superior and more user friendly once one really understands the technique. So I prefer it.

In archery, I invented my own methods because I found the existing methods lacking. Sure, I could just shoot a compound bow or rifle but then I would be switching into a niche I didn't prefer. I could also just play a CD of flamenco guitar instead of having to struggle with an instrument. I don't mind some struggle (in the case of flamenco a decades long strong even for the world's best), but given an assortment of struggles I want the best overall pathway to my happiness and success. 

In inventing new methods for shooting the bow or in the case of choosing amongst existing ones, there is always the benefit vs. disadvantage vs. compromise scale. For example, one can make a longbow more accurate by attaching a stabilizer to it. Do we really want to do that? I don't. But I do shoot a longbow that has good mass and that helps a little. I even tried upping the mass by going to a micarta riser but there I found the benefit of the extra mass (at least 2x that over most woods) ran into an unexpected disadvantage. I found micarta, being harder, transmitted sound and vibration more. So I ended up with a preferred compromise of a wood injected with plastic that gave me mass (plus strength) and little if any sound and vibration increase.

I applied similiar choices with arrows, preferring carbon over wood as many do. Traditional archery has it's limits of form, function, and aesthetics. Many people argued strongly against carbon arrows at first (some still do of course), but generally the benefits are preferred over the slight disadvantages of being kinda' tech-y.

Ray, regarding you comments I think you underestimate me. I've developed new techniques and improved existing techniques for shooting instinctively. I am not "anti instinctive".


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## David Alford

I'll just add, I certainly don't disagree with archers having different goals and requirements. To the contrary, it seems to me the majority of trad. archer instruction as been overly influenced by the swing draw instinctive method and it just doesn't suit a lot of people so why should they end up feeling they have failed when the method and/or the instruction has actually failed them. Fortunely, in recent years guys like Jimmy Blackmon and the example of IBO world champs are showing there are bringing aiming more and more to the front as a viable alternative. I applaud this, but it doesn't mean I/they are anti instinctive. 

There are other alternatives, some not widely known but it could be that one of those alternatives or maybe even one not invented or known is the solution for a person who feels disappointed in their results and satisfaction so far in their archery journey. Many of these people many end up quitting or struggling year after year and that's usually unnecessary. I've hunted with guys who absolutely love trad. bowhunting but are sick and tired of missing too often and wounding too many animals despite all their efforts. It's good to have choices as I'm sure we all agree.


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> I'll just add, I certainly don't disagree with archers having different goals and requirements. To the contrary, it seems to me the majority of trad. archer instruction as been overly influenced by the swing draw instinctive method and it just doesn't suit a lot of people so why should they end up feeling they have failed when the method and/or the instruction has actually failed them. Fortunely, in recent years guys like Jimmy Blackmon and the example of IBO world champs are showing there are bringing aiming more and more to the front as a viable alternative. I applaud this, but it doesn't mean I/they are anti instinctive.
> 
> There are other alternatives, some not widely known but it could be that one of those alternatives or maybe even one not invented or known is the solution for a person who feels disappointed in their results and satisfaction so far in their archery journey. Many of these people many end up quitting or struggling year after year and that's usually unnecessary. I've hunted with guys who absolutely love trad. bowhunting but are sick and tired of missing too often and wounding too many animals despite all their efforts. It's good to have choices as I'm sure we all agree.


Good post, and yeah I suppose once I saw the "kings of the Earth" and techno talk type comments I was a little bit inclined to give you a hard time. Maybe it's just me but a traditional forum that promotes many ways of shooting many types of bows seems like a rough place to say "one way" is the outright best way or method of shooting. That's what I picked up from your posts and probably others did as well.

As for how well people who struggle with aiming and shooting a stick bow can stay with it I don't believe you can teach them some superior method that is universal and interchangeable between shooters. Archery, especially stick bow archery is mentally and physically demanding. It requires a cetain level of natural capability for whatever you are trying to do. Be that hitting targets at 20 yards, shooting tiny moving targets, or hitting olympic bullseyes, each and every facet of archery has a requirement and it is up to every individual to match their abilities to the requirements of what they want to achieve. It is all very individualized. The only true constant in this equation is the bow and arrow as they sit and as they are, as soon as they are picked up eveything changes.

Keep enjoying the bow, I can say now that this post joust is done from my end.


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> I've developed new techniques and improved existing techniques for shooting instinctively. I am not "anti instinctive".


Your comment makes me think that we may also have different opinions on what is Instinctive Aiming and what isn't. 

I'm curious to hear how and why these new techniques can help.

My guess is that it may help the archers who aim by looking at just the target while being less consciously aware of their aiming reference than how many Gap shooters first learn how to aim.

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter

Nice guys - Chris (Str8 Shooter) took a lot of time putting together the original post to help folks out. Great to see that you have tacked 4 pages of typical AT BS to the end of it.

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF

Why is it BS to you when it's a discussion about defining some of the more detailed issues on what is and isn't involved with Instinctive Aiming and some form issues related to it?

Or is there something else you feel is BS?

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter

It's a sticky - start your own thread if you want metal gymnastics.

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF

So a thread that's a sticky can not be more thoroughly discussed within that same thread?

The meat of this thread is at the beginning. If someone gets annoyed by further discussion of this topic...they can just ignore it.

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter

Yeah - Chris doesn't seem to be posting much any more, anyways - wonder why???

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF

I have no idea why Chris doesn't post much here but heaven forbid someone allows other people discussing a specific topic to keep them from posting.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

BLACK WOLF said:


> Your comment makes me think that we may also have different opinions on what is Instinctive Aiming and what isn't.
> 
> I'm curious to hear how and why these new techniques can help.
> 
> My guess is that it may help the archers who aim by looking at just the target while being less consciously aware of their aiming reference than how many Gap shooters first learn how to aim.
> 
> Ray :shade:


One doesn't have to work on the aiming side of things. Better release methods would help all archers but that supposedly is impossible.


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## David Alford

Arrowzen said:


> Good post, and yeah I suppose once I saw the "kings of the Earth" and techno talk type comments I was a little bit inclined to give you a hard time. Maybe it's just me but a traditional forum that promotes many ways of shooting many types of bows seems like a rough place to say "one way" is the outright best way or method of shooting. That's what I picked up from your posts and probably others did as well.


You missed my point entirely. The swing draw instinctive method has, in the opinion of many, caused more TP and more "I quit" results than any other method. I won't say it's a complete failure, but IMO it has overall had way too much of an influence. 

Re: "we are the kings" I hope you now understand I am arguing for the common man and virtually shouting at the top of my lungs that the average person has all the talent necessary to shoot well. Accuracy is about great alignments, not great talent. But it not easy to have great alignments especially consistently at the moment of release with the swing draw instinctive method. 

Other methods are more user friendly, and not just my own. I've consistently said Jimmy Blackmon's instruction as well as the example of the top IBO World Champs who use aiming are good examples to emulate.


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## David Alford

Matt_Potter said:


> Yeah - Chris doesn't seem to be posting much any more, anyways - wonder why???
> 
> Matt


He made an excellent post; however until some of us started debating philosophy as it were, there really wasn't much to add. Why let a continuing discussion bother you even one iota?


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## Arrowzen

David Alford said:


> Other methods are more user friendly, and not just my own. I've consistently said Jimmy Blackmon's instruction as well as the example of the top IBO World Champs who use aiming are good examples to emulate.


I agree with you there. I've been looking at Jimmy's youtube and advice since I've discovered this forum. I am enjoying learning the refined aiming style, plus I am wanting to become more proficient at hitting distant targets. Anyhow I think it would be great if he posted more stuff up on the forums, everything I've seen from him is either very good learning material or just ridiculously good shooting.


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## Matt_Potter

Arrowzen said:


> I agree with you there. I've been looking at Jimmy's youtube and advice since I've discovered this forum. I am enjoying learning the refined aiming style, plus I am wanting to become more proficient at hitting distant targets. Anyhow I think it would be great if he posted more stuff up on the forums, everything I've seen from him is either very good learning material or just ridiculously good shooting.


Jimmy is in Afghanistan right now serving our country - not much time to post.


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> One doesn't have to work on the aiming side of things.


That's for sure! :thumbs_up

An archer should learn how to walk before they run. Form is the foundation that can make aiming easier. I know it's often not realistic but if most archers could train similar to the Korean Olympic team where they work on form first before learning how to aim...I think allot of archers would shorten the learning curve.



David Alford said:


> Better release methods would help all archers but that supposedly is impossible.


Why is that supposedly impossible?

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

BLACK WOLF said:


> Why is that supposedly impossible?
> 
> Ray :shade:


Many people think in a sport as old as archery "it's all be done". I'm trying to avoid talking about my methods, so let's leave it at that.

Re: Jimmy Blackmon, I think he was skeptical of me but after we spoke a few times, I think he started to trust me more. As I've said, I like his methods, I like his videos, his writings, and the fact he is serving our country speaks for itself.


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## BLACK WOLF

David Alford said:


> Many people think in a sport as old as archery "it's all be done". I'm trying to avoid talking about my methods, so let's leave it at that.


C'mon, David...it's been YEARS since you've you first started telling people you had a revolutionary technique that could change the archery community.

Do you really think you risk loosing that much money or fame by telling us what they are?

I'm pretty sure just about everything has been tried and done before...from release aids, peep sights and even whisker bisquits to name a few.

If you're afraid to share your techniques with us based on ridicule...you may get some from some people...but from me and many others...we support every archer using whatever techniques make them happy. There will always be 'elitists' but I honestly could careless how an archer shoots...but I have allot of respect for those that share their techniques while trying to help others...even if only a few will benefit from it.

Ray :shade:


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## David Alford

I'm sorry this is again turning to my years of not revealing my techniques. There are MANY reasons and I've explained those reasons before. I have a patent attorney (Conley Rose in Houston) and they insist my position on this is the correct one. 

If you go to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL99x-YhkqA at 16:15, you can see a professional golf instructor and one of the real innovators in the the golf swing has a similar position. He can demonstrate and I can demonstrate but we limit who we show the good stuff to. And Mac has been ripped off in golf big time and now is in a much weaker position although he sastifsfied to some extent those clammering that he give them something. So a couple of hundred people have slightly increased respect for him, but in retrospect he said it was a mistake. Others got all the credit for Mac's decades of work and published books on it in their names not his. And it wasn't just about the name or any ego thing to the degree some think. Mac's techniques got *******ized and diluted with every telling and now many think his contributions were questionable advances.

I also am a golf innovator, being one of the inventors of a putting method that has probably made 50 million dollars in tour profits. With archery, it's not just about money, it's about doing things right. Mac O'grady may never publish as he also has been claiming "next year" for many years, but I know in my heart that I will and not before that much longer as I'm writing now (from the Philippines where I'd normally be doing other things)...

I'm sure even this reply to you will create even more criticism directed toward me. I didn't want this thread to be about me. I enjoyed the posts, but that's all. Good shooting.


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## ColdSpitRoast

Wow! A lot to take in but good info.


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## Wapiti Archer

I thank you for this post. It helped me understand a bit of what I was doing. I recently took the sight off and used what you called the "Gap at Riser" method. And my accuracy greatly improved upon doing so.









However, I'm not using the riser (hadn't thought of that). I'm using the base of where my sight was mounted. I'm glad to see that in doing so I'm not 100% incorrect and I can in fact continue to use this method.


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## Temper

Interesting... I've been referring to myself as an Instictive archer. After this post however I think I'm more rightly characterized as a "Split Vision" archer.


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## DJTJR

Perhaps the best trad thread out there. Thanks and well done!!!


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## coxral

Interesting and helpful! Thanks for the thread!


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## gamohunter

What I see here is the science has proven that instinctive shooting is much like wing shooting with a shotgun... 

I personally believe in that ALL shooting is instinctive... even with sights. Because if you shoot the common term "traditional" which is more accurately "barebow" and you practice and practice at yardages known and or unknown you are creating "aiming" points through sub concious triangulatiom no different than throwing a baseball Javelin or kicking a soccer ball or shooting a basketball.. 

Those aiming points exist... those tools are being used its not magic its physics plain and simple. I love the examples given here.

I also do not agree with arguments that one method is more or less traditional than the other... as it is embarrassing when one methodology used is berated by someone who uses another methodology when shooting a bow... its like the old harley vs. Yamaha vs. Honda vs. Indian vs. Victory arguements... doesnt matter they are all motorcycles and serve the same purpose... 

same with shooting the bow and arrow.. I started out shooting recurves no sights the year was 1976 I learned about sights in a copy of the Archer's Digest from the local library... come to find out... aiming systems were used for thousands of years in warfare competition and hunting. 

I am a bowhunter and the goal is always to ethically take game in as humane a way as possible... if using any one of these systems does not allow you to do that... then find another way and if they do then its just as good.

Using the riser as an aiming tool to me clarified that the riser can be used as a sighting device... and probably should be and that mounting sights to a bow is just an natural extension of that methodology. Very cool thread indeed thank you very much... BTW Happy Fathers Day to all the parents on here.


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## gamohunter

I think for the most part everyone has different definitions for the same thing and or the same definition for different things... I believe barebow shooters have some type of sighting reference unless you shoot blind folded and can hit a target you have never seen only described to you... but that being said we must always remember that what works for one doesnt alwats work for all... I agree it is impressive to see a point and shoot archer like watching a speed chess or pool game... I however believe that just proves they can process their preshot sequence and aiming method faster than someone who does not shoot instinctively... nit that they don'r aim... they are just faster and more fluid... like a baseball pitcher


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## WVbowhunter123

I shoot instinctive. Thanks for posting this. Helped me explain to a couple of sight shooters how I aim.


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## Damn True

This may be a silly question but....

When using any/all of the illustrated "gap" methods are you meant to have both eyes open or just the one above the arrow?


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## Arron

Damn True said:


> This may be a silly question but....
> 
> When using any/all of the illustrated "gap" methods are you meant to have both eyes open or just the one above the arrow?


I think it is personal preference. I have also read were some keep dominate eye open and squint the other. I would say give each a try and see which works best for you.


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## Jarrod Renaud

Great post


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## Damn True

To "sight picture": when aiming a firearm with open sights one focuses on the front sight and the rear and target are blurred. Is the same true if one is using the point of the arrow for "gap" or should the image of the target be crisp?


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## BLACK WOLF

Damn True said:


> Is the same true if one is using the point of the arrow for "gap" or should the image of the target be crisp?


It really depends on the archer and what definition you want to use.

Some archers will focus on the gap and the target will be blurred while others will focus on the target and the arrow tip will be blurred.

There are allot of similarities with different aiming techniques. In most cases...it's what the archer is consciously focusing on and aware of within their sight picture that determines what aiming technique is being used.

Ray :shade:


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## portablevcb

To be truthful, and being very new to this, I find the focus on terms to be not so interesting.

You can train to shoot any way you want. Your brain will adapt. All it needs is a reference and a target. The reference can be as simple as where your two hands are, which is why 'trick' shooters can do their thing. The hands do not need to be at an 'anchor' nor does the bow have to be held in a perfect position. It does make it easier for us mere mortals. A very few can be extremely accurate without using a standard form.

FWIW, if your arrow is in your field of view, you are 'aiming'. You may not be measuring a gap or sighting off the riser, but, your brain is aiming using the arrow and target as references.

Both eyes open? Depends. My right eye is dominant, but, not very. I have had trouble with a 'shifting' target as the left eye takes over. So, when I 'aim' (even if not using a sighting method) I will squint my left eye every now and then to make sure I am using the correct one  I have to do the same thing when shooting a pistol or long gun with open sights.


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## 782gear

You have solved one of life's greatest mysteries for me and I am very thankful. The graphics and word explanations are outstanding.


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## Harley D

Very helpful thread.


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## Chupacabra666

Fantastic post.. thanks for sharing. I have been using a sight but have wanted to go back to instinctive but still using reference points. I like the method of visualizing arrow shafts to determine distance. Combined with lining the string up as a rear sight with the tip of the arrow, may prove fairly accurate. Can't wait to test.


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## Mr. Roboto

Now for the fun question that has been completely danced around. When does one apply one of these gap sighting methods?

This question is in regards to shooting tournaments under NFAA, USAA, and WA target/field archery rules.

When a person approaches a target. Looks at the distance marker for that target. Then they decide which gapping method that want to use for that target.

At what point do they actually apply the gap method???????

Do they do it the instant before they loose the arrow? Do they raise their bow up to the target before nocking an arrow to figure out what gap or pick a point they should use when using the reference the riser/plunger/shelf/arrow_rest method? Do they nock and arrow, and raise the bow up 1 or more times trying to find the right gap reference point to aim at, and then finally raise the bow to shoot the actual arrow?

For USAA/WA rules, string walking solves a lot of this. But for field events, half the targets are unmarked, and thus a derivate of gaping method is used to estimate ranges. In range estimating, gap (or relative scaling) method with respect to the arrow/riser/plunger/shelf/arrow_rest can be used to get a good estimation of the target ranges. But then when is that determined? Is this done as a separate step before the shot execution is done. Then once the range estimate has been determined, then the process of determining the appropriate gap is done, then the shot execution is begun.

All of these rules say we cant use anything in the sight window for aiming. Well that is vague. It all depends on what the definition of these organizations define as "aiming" The arrow tip is in the sight window because I can see it every time I shoot.

I know some of you are hard core competitors under NFAA, USAA, WA rules, so how does these sighting techniques work and stay within compliance of the rules. Especially the whole process of getting that initial gap when you approach the target for the first time.

I use a combination of these depending on the situation/tournament. When I shoot field events, I spend more time trying to figure out where I need to aim before I loose the first arrow. Then I let one loose, look with the bino's to see if I picked the right gap, and then shoot the rest either using the same gap or a slightly modified one. If I don't know the exact point relative to the target when I get there, I raise my bow first to then figure out where I need to aim. There are no added marks to the bow. I have a shelf, there is a distance between the shelf and plunger, there is a plunger width, and there is an arrow rest width. All of these work fine for getting a point to aim at. But during the shot sequence, I just focus on the arrow tip, and my point on the target (or shed, or tree branch, or rock) and let them fly. There are other distances I just know, aim at the 3 ring at 6 o'clock. Then I just shoot.

But now, I am planning on taking up WA Field events, and now there is a whole new curveball to work on, range estimating. I am still debating on whether to try to become well versed in string walking since up here in Washington State, the most of the tournaments are in bed with the NFAA, and thus string walking is illegal.

Any insight from you experts on this and its compliance with NFAA/USAA/WA rules.

Thanks,

Pete


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## Chris1ny

Instinctive +1


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## DaemonXR

Hello fellow archers!

Its been a long since i post here @AT but since i started recurve bare bow shooting few months ago i feel need to express my self here, and not to argue with any of you pros and experienced archers but merely bcoz of constructive talk.
Archer cant dismiss his/her peripheral vision when shoot, at least at subconscious level.I mean you cant erase what you see in front of your eyes. Try put bandage over your eyes and shoot that bulls eye. All of you "instinctive" or better to use word intuitive shooters say that you do not aim but "your" brain is making corrections.Right?? But your brain is You at first place so this is how i see things after few months of training. 
At the beginning of dwelling in bare bow shooting i picked close enough distance at target in order not to miss whole target boss  and i start to shoot. I gaped at first but after only few moments of that shooting i stopped gaping and my brain made transition to subconscious level of aiming. I just draw and release with "both eyes" focused on bulls eye. After some time in ranging all my distances to target and gaping in first place my brain (aka me) adopted to that distance and made transition toward subconscious level of aiming. Now with all known distances i shoot, i do not aim at conscious level. I just draw and release and my brain is doing all calculations at subconscious level. If i am going on longer distance i didn't shoot before i gap few first arrows to see where they will actually hit. after some time i do not aim, just draw and release.
So it is, when you dumb and bore repetitively your brain with same thing over and over again, you will not think of what you are doing. You will just do that.
As of now i am still extensively training accuracy @20 meters distance (it is our indoor shooting range) and shooting FITA 20 faces.My yellow hit percentage (ring 9 and 10) is between 50-70% and it wary if i am rested well or not. I am shooting outdoor distances up to 40 meters (our outdoor range) and though yellow hit percentage is far worst but overall i am satisfied with my progress.
So going back to instinctive shooting and your eyes...i said your both eyes bcoz in instinctive shooting you need to look with both eyes on target. You need that stereoscopic vision in order to more precisely range that distance to target.So one cannot call himself instinctive shooter if looking only with one eye and other is detained full or litle.
Here i said it so please feel free to correct me if i am wrong in anything a wrote here.Anyway i am still beginner in instinctive shooting and i am open for advices on that matter.
And sory if my english is not good. Its not my language.

Cheers


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## Joe Hohmann

DaemonXR, I think most of us agree with you, which was why the term "split vision" was added to the list of shooting styles. It is what I use while I shoot with both eyes open and focused on the bullseye. Although this works well for me at 20 yards, I find that I need to shoot more of a "gap" method at 30 or more yards. A miss while shooting "gap" or "point of aim" really shows your form needs improvement. Your English is better than a number of Americans on other forums.


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## DaemonXR

Thanx Joe, though my "correct me while i type" is switched on at all time 
That`s my point precisely. When i found myself at greater distance i am gaping but after dumbing my brain out with several dozens of arrows at same distance i found myself stop gaping and just release without thinking. Though as of now l didn`t try greater distance than 40 meters with my W&W ExPrime and still extensively train at lower distances as well. I still have occasional 6-8 inch spread at 20 meters and it wary with my state of mind and current strength and stamina. My bow is 40#. Maybe i will pick same limbs but in 32-34# range.


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## Captainkirk

Not sure which method I would call myself...probably a gap-shooter. I possess the mixed blessing of being very strongly right-hand dominant with an extremely dominant left eye, and simply can't shoot with my left eye open, nor left handed. What this leaves me with is true 2D sighting, rather than a 3D scenario.
When I shoot with both eyes open, I 'think' I'm on the bull, then find I miss the whole backstop. It's not pretty.....
Are there others out there with the same problem, and how do you work around it?


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## DaemonXR

You are not the only one with that problem. Me being right handed with left eye dominance also, plus i need my glasses all time because i have mix of astigmatism and short sighting 
For me solution is to disregard doubled right picture of arrow and bow in my peripheral vision while gap shooting  after that starting period my zbrain adopt to that and i shoot intuitive (or split vision if you can call this).
Though i am still thinking to get The Eliminator Pro Elite or similar sight for my compound bows and test that out.


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## Captainkirk

DaemonXR said:


> You are not the only one with that problem. Me being right handed with left eye dominance also, plus i need my glasses all time because i have mix of astigmatism and short sighting
> For me solution is to disregard doubled right picture of arrow and bow in my peripheral vision while gap shooting  after that starting period my zbrain adopt to that and i shoot intuitive (or split vision if you can call this).
> Though i am still thinking to get The Eliminator Pro Elite or similar sight for my compound bows and test that out.


I too suffer from nearsightedness and wear glasses all the time. Maybe next season I will give your method a try and see if I can overcome the double-image demons. Right now I've only been shooting instinctive (without sights) for about two months, so I'm just trying to get the basics down. I think I've done pretty well shooting 2D, but I can see where using both eyes (3D) would give one a big advantage in a hunting situation.
I've also decided I may give another try to 3-under next season (first attempt really sucked!) but one thing at a time....


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## Jeremy M. Harri

Thanks, for posting it. Really a great blog. After reading it I can say that it has cleared lots of my doubts and problems which I felt to have at the time of my shooting practice.


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## Joe Hohmann

Since I last posted I got a vintage Hoyt 5PM with a sight. The nice thing about a sight is that if you are not ending up with a tight group you know to blame it on your form/consistancy. No "my aim was off".


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## virginmesa

USE THE FORCE...

Proper form really helps (stance, draw/inhale, anchor, release and follow thorough) and so does having the right bow with a correct brace height.

Chest out level head turned all the way to the right/left to isolate your visual plane and provide a consistent SIGHT PICTURE. Once you have this sight picture in your mind and have been able to shoot some tight groups then you can focus on hand lift for longer shots out to 60-70-80 meters with your recurve WITHOUT SIGHTS.


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## RobbJ

This is great! I just started shooting again, with an old Pearson Tourney compound. I got a Fuse Focus for Christmas and I'm really in to learning how to shoot it properly. I've had several great shots where everything just felt good and the arrow went right where I was aiming. I'm going back to study everyone's posts. Thanks for the info!


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## instintivebow

I have just a litle question that I don´t know if has already been asked...when gap shooting does the bow need to be completely vertical or can be canted??


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## ranchoarcher

Keep it vertical. If you cant the bow you would need to make sure it's canted the exact same amount each and every time since it will affect the gap distance. That's tough if not impossible to do. The only exception might be a longbow that has the site window cut such that canting will bring it vertical.


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## ElkParker

Excellent post!


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## Thin Man

In _Become the Arrow_, Ferguson discusses his procedure to obtain an ergonomic, repeatable, and torque-free cant, as well as aiming via the gap method with it. He also discusses the reasons that some bows may benefit by using a cant more so than others.

There are applications and techniques for both vertical and canted shooting. The aiming processes are simply adapted to the format employed. 

In many cases, however, vertical is a sound and efficient default position when getting one's initial technique under the belt.


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## Bone_Crusher

Well said


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## ismo131

Resent trad shootings i had moments when i aimed 1st with looking target but allso with thinking where target is. Like i do when im shooting icehogkey puck. Then i don't look target. I look somewhere between and i see target but not with that high vision sektor off my eye. Thats is owiesly a mistake when i didn't look target good enaf rather than just glansing it little pit. I'm not grate shot put i hit this way in same area that in another times.
With eyes close this not work so much. A few times i Did that from 5m i was ½ m off


----------



## whyatt

im really liking this info.. just what I was looking for... much appreciated


----------



## Zentrility

Just what I was looking for, thanks!


----------



## ismo131

Little progress. Disedays i don't notice bow and arrow so much. They are just there and i can consetrate only on target. Zen on trad...


----------



## Peleus

The split describes me quite well accept the tip is a couple of clicks right of target. So any suggestions will help here as I'm still a newbie. Love the post and puts into easy to understand terms. Thanks!!!


----------



## Captain837

I am really enjoying instinctive shooting. Your explanation was spot on regarding focus. I might add an analogy that is a little more helpful than the popular "throwing a baseball" one though. I think of my focus as the front sight, my subconscious thought as my rear sight. Both need to be focused on the target and the task at hand and nothing else if I intent to hit it. If I do this while executing proper form, I can feel it instantly and I know the arrow is going exactly where I wanted it. I get a slight euphoric feeling like my mind is giving itself a high five and taking notes for future use. Unfortunately getting all 3 correct at the same time is a real challenge in itself.


----------



## Pete_P

Maybe someone can help me??? I shoot instinctive right handed very well, I focus only on the target with both eyes open. If I gap with the shaft it goes far left because I am now losing sight in my right eye. I switched to left handed shooting, and gapping with the shaft very well. If I shoot instinctive lefty...I can't seem to judge the target and always miss it (too high, too low). Do I stick with righty instinctive, or stick with lefty gap shooting? Remember my right eye is going blind, but somehow I can shoot instinctive really well with both eyes open right handed. Thanks, -Pete


----------



## Va1981

tag


----------



## Alexanderigor

Very good post. Relearning Archery and have forgot more than I realized.


----------



## scraps1981

Very helpful! I'm a long time compound shooter who recently began trad. Shooting with a recurve bow. This has proved very helpful!


----------



## tnbn75

where's the like button?


----------



## Arrowflinger19

I think now i will use a silver marker and mark my riser for holds lol


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## Mr. Roboto

Arrowflinger19 said:


> I think now i will use a silver marker and mark my riser for holds lol


Just keep in mind that if you shooting a division/style/class with a bow that doesn't allow sights in a tournament, having marks on the riser/bow is not legal to shoot.


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## 40tude

Just wanted to say, this is a great thread!


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## m14h5

I think I utilize two different methods for two different parts of my shooting sequence. I use split vision as I raise the bow up to make sure I am lined up with my left and right and shift to a more instinctive focus on the target as I draw the arrow back. I have just started with archery but I am finding the more I focus on the form or anything other than the target the worse I do.


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## oldmand

I too never realized there are so many methods. Thanks for the info.


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## Pleco

I'm comfortable shooting instinctive for target. But a month before deer season I practice "barreling" (using the arrow to aim). I feel more comfortable shooting at game that way. It helps Me focus on the "spot" like a laser.


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## TRUE HUNT

Tagged awesome info


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## ARichard

This post is extremely helpful. I just bought a new Samick Sage 55# after a 20 year break form recurves. My shooting came back quickly I am now fine tuning technique. This helps a lot, thank you!


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## ARichard

This post is extremely helpful. I just bought a new Samick Sage 55# after a 20 year break form recurves. My shooting came back quickly I am now fine tuning technique. This helps a lot, thank you!


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## superkodiaks

Anyone else create a bow setup to be point on for hunting purposes? Sometimes a heavy arrow tuned properly can be setup to be point on at a typical hunting distance like say 20 yards. I shoot instinctive at 10, but point on around 20.


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## gamerdude535

My shooting style feels sort of a hybrid between instinctive and gap/split vision I would say


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## futuretrash

This makes a lot of sense, although I've done really well without any complicated gapping techniques.


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## 2rott

This is a great post. Helps me to understand quite a bit. I shot true instinctive befor I started to experiment with string walking & gap shooting. Still trying to get it down pat by combining the two. For the people who believe no one shoots true instinctive, I can only say as left eye dominant & a right handed shooter, I believe I never saw my arrow even in the periphery. If I even thought about it my shot was way off. Of course I have to close my left eye to gap shoot. I don't hunt so I find the loss of peripheral vision negligable.


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## Kris_H_97

I'm getting it for the most part, but I'm a bit confused on some of the wordage. Not sure what "point on" means exactly. For instance, the target is 20 yards but the point on distance is 30. Huh?


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## wood2212

Wish I would have seen instruction like this before I learned all of my bad habits!


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## Lowtide

I agree!


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## Str8 Shooter

Kris_H_97 said:


> I'm getting it for the most part, but I'm a bit confused on some of the wordage. Not sure what "point on" means exactly. For instance, the target is 20 yards but the point on distance is 30. Huh?


Your bow will have a distance where the tip of the arrow will cover the bullseye and the trajectory will meet. At that distance you draw back, cover the spot you want to hit with the tip and shoot and the arrow will hit that spot. Anything below that you will have to compensate by holding below the bullseye with the arrow tip, past your point on you hold above the bullseye. 

Does that help clarify the terminology?


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## cscribner1

If you can see straight down your arrow without tilting your bow is there still any benefit in it?


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## grantmac

cscribner1 said:


> If you can see straight down your arrow without tilting your bow is there still any benefit in it?


Benefit to tilting (canting)? Definitely not if you can avoid it.


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## webster2

No need for anyone to limit themselves to a vertical bow. No sights or arrow tip aiming allows you to shoot from a vertical to a flat-out horizontal limb orientation, a handy option for hunting or any shots where odd angles or cramped quarters are common. Key differences between the typical target style and hunting/instinctive style: one requires the shooter to conform to a fairly inflexible form regime designed to optimize accuracy under more or less 'easy' shooting conditions (such as stand-up shooting at wide open targets with known yardages and the sight pin/arrow tip/reticle clearly visible); the other easily adapts itself to the shooter's needs to let him/her adjust to the situation at hand, including leaning or canting to shoot around trees/brush or taking quick shots at close moving targets or in dim light. Each method has advantages, and drawbacks. Notwithstanding that the mutual objective is to direct the arrow, recognizing that from a practical standpoint they aren't really the same thing or of equal usefulness under all circumstances is pretty elementary.

Clearly then, depending on the circumstances there is a place for all types of sighting methods, we just need to collectively realize and communicate that shooting with sights is not universally better (or worse) than shooting without them, and vice-versa. Both approaches have demonstrated usefulness and effectiveness over the centuries. People, especially new inexperienced shooters, deserve the right to get straight answers to their questions about any particular method and deserve the right/opportunity to make their OWN decisions about which method best applies to them. 

Perhaps someday we as archers will all be able to discuss the various ways to aim an arrow with objectivity and with an eye towards respect for another's opinion...and not try to glorify or condemn one method over another simply because WE like it. Maybe someday our helpful and constructive assistance (to those specifically requesting help in understanding one method compared to another) will be the norm, rather than the exception. Maybe someday.

But probably not...it makes waaay too much sense. :box: :dontknow:


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## RecurveDenver

This thread is awesome!!! I have been instinctive for about a 7-8 months now, and instinct shooting costs $$ in arrows when you're trying to 'instinct' 30 yds :mg: 
I started off in archery by borrowing my friend's compound bow - those colored pins for distance are pretty awesome  Does anyone have some ideas, pics, or takes on marking the riser for shooting?


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## manderly42

This is an awesome and very helpful thread. I'm sorry if this has been asked before - is it possible to have a combination of these methods? I feel as though I have a combination of instinctive and pick-a-point. I'm very new to archery and I am trying to figure out the best way to aim... Thank in advance!


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## StephenAngelo

Thank you, great explanation.


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## StephenAngelo

Do you have to change your anchor point to do this?


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## StephenAngelo

I ask a question of the "barreling" post but it got put on the end of the list. My question is to you have to change your anchor point to sight down the barrel of the arrow?


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## grantmac

StephenAngelo said:


> I ask a question of the "barreling" post but it got put on the end of the list. My question is to you have to change your anchor point to sight down the barrel of the arrow?


It's very possible you will depending on the speed and length of your arrows.


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## BarneySlayer

grantmac said:


> Benefit to tilting (canting)? Definitely not if you can avoid it.


I'm one of the unlucky ones...

I feel slightly more comfortable vertical, but I'm discovering that the reality is that if I cant just a little, the back of the arrow is more under my eye.


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## grantmac

BarneySlayer said:


> I'm one of the unlucky ones...
> 
> I feel slightly more comfortable vertical, but I'm discovering that the reality is that if I cant just a little, the back of the arrow is more under my eye.


Cut outside center longbows I'm right with you. True centershot stuff I can just cant my head.


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## DDSHOOTER

Barney, I am with you. So let look at why we are different. Versions of aiming and here they are.
Dan


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## 5andro

Instinctive shooter looks only to the spot and almost ignore bowhand and arrow. This works great for distances the not require to rise your bow at the same level or above the spot, but how can you look at the spot when your bowhand covers it? That's what I'm struggling with when I shot more than 35 meteres, hope anyone can help me solve my doubts, Thanks.


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## djdav10000

Thanks for all the postings. I find this very helpful


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## snazy

Agreed, very useful.


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## Qed

A very good post of how to aim a bow with an arrow shelf a longbow without a shelf is slightly different as the hand placement supporting the arrow becomes critical to the draw of the arrow.
QED "quod erat demonstrandum"


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## Tom Sloniger

Thanks for sharing


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## mboustany

Thank so for posting. Very helpful for a newbie trying to learn traditional archery.


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## Roadsnakes

Novice here

If you were shooting using the string walking method. What would be the view?

Would you see the entire length of the arrow shaft as you look down it? Plus the center of the target?


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## valkamai

Great info here. Thanks.

Sent from my HTC Desire 626 using Tapatalk


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## 2BMX

Thank you. I just started shooting trad and this topic is helping me a lot.


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## Dgroves1

Nicely done!


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## mrcoachd

Wonderful set of information. I plan on coming back to this a lot!


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## mustangfan74

lot to this when you have been shooting with sites lol


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## bernardo0585

mustangfan74 said:


> lot to this when you have been shooting with sites lol


My thoughts exactly...lol


Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## Shleprock

Split vision recently explained to me as instinctive shooting while using peripheral vision to better line up the arrow right to left. I just started trying this a couple weeks ago. I'm trying to barely let myself see the arrow on the edge of where I'm concentrating. I have been doing it off and on with the hope that my mind begins to do this automatically without thought. Just like when I normally shoot which is instinctive. To me it is simply a honing of my instinctive shooting skills. It will become one. I'm not going to push it.


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## Dgroves1

Nice job!


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## Daryl Coda

Wow. What a thorough and informative post. Thank you.


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## ArchersParody

Wow - what a post! It's very helpful


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## Ken_Riser

Anybody know the most accurate method so accurate Yu sight downarrow shaft just like a gun called walking the string no legal most clubs. Or shoots but I do t see why it's still a sighting way and schould be called a sight no matter how it's used old Indian trick walking the string and Yu mark your string and nock on that mark that is the actual yardage Yu think targets at 

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk


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## Ken_Riser

How I post walking the string method sighting old Indian method most accurate I've seen yet and no sights but still it's classified as a sight I disagree no pins on bow no sight Yu must still judge yardage only sighting straight down arrow shaft like a gun sight they call it a sight I disagree no pins no sight did classification but not u aided shaft is still considered sight I still disagree

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk


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## Draven Olary

5andro said:


> Instinctive shooter looks only to the spot and almost ignore bowhand and arrow. This works great for distances the not require to rise your bow at the same level or above the spot, but how can you look at the spot when your bowhand covers it? That's what I'm struggling with when I shot more than 35 meteres, hope anyone can help me solve my doubts, Thanks.


What poundage you shoot with? I shoot +50m from time to time with a #55 wood bow and I never found that I can't see the target. As instinctive shooter the thing that will happen shooting this type of distances is to have the arrow tip in your face so to speak. And you will have to deal with it.


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## Thin Man

D, 

Click 5's name on the post you're responding to and take a peek at his posting history. 

Posted five times in 2009, and this sixth (and final) post in September of 2016. 

I've got a sneaky feeling he's left the building that he barely had a toe within in the first place.

FYI. 

I've accidentally posted to a few ghosts quite a few times. Nothing wrong with that, of course, for other readers can still benefit from the commentary as it may apply to their own shooting or interest.

Perhaps the poster will resurface and pick up where they left off without missing a beat within the time-displaced nature of our new digital frontier.


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## Draven Olary

Oh, my bad T Man. Will never happen again


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## Johnson17

Would someone be able to help me out and figure out why I am unable to see the pictures?... sorry to be "that guy" but I'd love to see them and can't for some reason. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thank you in advance!


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## Bill 2311

G Fred Abell thinks instinctive is the way to go.
I stared instictive, tried gap with 3 under, but find I really shoot split vision.
No right or wrong way, just the best way for you


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## AJ the TP Guru

Well, this thread is so long, someone has likely already posted this. But if not, I recommend the "push archery" youtube video explaining the fixed crawl. https://www.google.com/search?q=you...i57j35i39l2.4029j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Cool Manchu

Even without the pics (thanks, Photobucket), very informative.


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## ifrit617

Great thread. Awesome information.

Jon


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## slalomnorth

Great explanation. Thanks for posting.


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## Ken_Riser

slalomnorth said:


> Great explanation. Thanks for posting.


Yep 


Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## actibow

pre draw aiming maybe a slight tweek if it looks a little off


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## 013

I guess I'm a "Pick a point" shooter. Good to know. Thanks for the info!


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## darkchild4life

This was a great explanation to get, and I think the pictures really make the post way more understandable. Thank You for sharing


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## PGarland

Very helpful - thank you!


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## 1old buck

Eldermike said:


> One key to all methods, they are all learned, and then ingrained through pratice. You could say it's by habit.


Have to agree 100% Eldermike.
It's ALL bare bow shooting. NOT instinctive...unless you change Websters definition of "instinct" or "instinctive".
A buck goes into rut and instinctively looks for a doe in heat. Birds fly south in winter and don't get lost because of instinct. Salmon find there way back to the streams they were born in etc. etc.
No animal has to *practice* and hone his _instincts_ to get it right.

BARE BOW shooting just requires WAY more practice to remain on target and keep proficient in accuracy compared to shooting with sights.
Does Tom Brady rely on instinct to hit the Gronk at 30 yards running across or at 45 degrees or flat straight down the field or does he practice, practice, practice?

Call your style what you want but if you find a technique that works for you...do it and stick with it. And there is no substitute for practice when bare bow shooting.

But still great info to study and digest Str8.

Thanks


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## Tundra Extreme

Very helpful, thanks


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## sew

Excellent!


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## Oncorhynchus

Tagged, thanks for the great explanations


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## Yodes89

Being on the precipice of getting back into this, I'm so glad I stumbled on this article! It is awesomely detailed, and the pictures are amazing. Thank you!!


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## Jimmitch

Subcribed


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## rgriff

Great article. I shoot mostly split vision, but practice instinctive also.


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## 1eyebowman

that is really interesting , I think I may try it


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## gimmeryce

Thanks for this! Didn't realize I was already gap shooting because that's just what makes sense to me, but now I'm curious about instinctive. Very helpful!


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## lharcher95

Good read


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## AzadM

Great post and images, Thanks!!!


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## cookie914

appreciate the info and tips!


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## cookie914

Will be putting them to use very soon


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## Twlewis

thank you. I am a new to archery about 2 months and trying to figure out what type of shooter I am. I am strongly considering a couch for a few lessons.


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## hannman

Awesome explanation with great illustration.


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## Illini135

12317


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## Semperfisurveyo

Great post!

Tagged for future reference.


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## MikePhelps

Great post! Truly appreciate the time and attention in the explanation.


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## Jarredcmoore

This is an amazing help! great work!


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## SteelPoints

Good reference


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## akoch

This is awesome. Love the picture references.


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## blancharddm1

Yes, these pics are awesome. They've really helped me to explain some things to novice shooters.


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## mwitt07

Great post!


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## mwitt07

SteelPoints said:


> Good reference


agree


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## Wrin6868

Interesting


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## Sinemetu

This is very helpful. thanks!


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## Mrcapra

I have had one group lesson so far. We learned anchor point and relaxed grip. And I saw that my arrows landed about 5 feet higher than I intended. Is that the point on distance?


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## Mrcapra

Also I notice that I do not have good enough vision to see the target well. Which of these methods would be better for poor eyesight? Maybe gapping with the shaft?


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## rcmckitt

Interesting post. The images are helpful.


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## J31968

Good info and great work


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## Plandolfi

Nice


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## BDippold

Wow! Great post and very helpful!


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## schrocat

Seconding this from AJ this has been an immediate and complete game changer for me 20-30 yds are on within a very short period of time. I've set a second nock point that I use for my 20 with my three under index under this point ,for 30 yds same finger with the bottom part of the same index finger riding on that nock point gives me 30 yds. I'm shooting out at 40 as well but don't have it dialed in yet.

Because of everything I've learned from The Push movie I'm going to hunt with my recurve this year.



AJ the TP Guru said:


> Well, this thread is so long, someone has likely already posted this. But if not, I recommend the "push archery" youtube video explaining the fixed crawl. https://www.google.com/search?q=you...i57j35i39l2.4029j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## Trknick

Fantastic :thumbs_up:thumbs_up


----------



## DrZman

Very Helpful. Thanks much


----------



## Texas_Jeff

This thread has been really helpful. I’m fairly new in traditional archery and still trying to figure everything out. 

Does anyone put white tape on the end of their arrow shaft like discussed in the push? I can see how this would help with consistent aiming when using different tips/Broadheads but just wanted to see what everyone’s experience has been. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lameduck

I've been using the tip of the arrow for aiming and trying to find a way to aim for shots closer than 50 yards.
Thanks for this thread, and to the previous poster who brought this back to the top. This should be a sticky.


----------



## Jim Casto Jr

lameduck said:


> ...This should be a sticky.



 Been a "sticky" for about seven years.


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## oldmand

If you want an even better explanation of the various methods of aiming a longbow or recurve, I highly recommend a video by Clay Hayes, "Instinctive Archery vs Aiming a Recurve or Longbow". Available on Ytube. In it, the "PURELY instinctive" method is finally debunked. I think you'll find it interesting.


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## Altx

I chose for myself the first method of aiming, instinctive, I like it very much.


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## kreetz69

Great post. I am Instinctive shooter, but when teaching others, it's nice to be able to explain the different styles.


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## Braam

Excellent article.Well done!!!!👏

Sent from my D6603 using http://bit.ly/Archery_Talk_app


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## Vahti

I was told to start at 5' shoot away move back so on and on and my brain would pick it up. I have tried this method and it helps but I think I am going to a good teacher.


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## vinnielopez

Excellent post especially for someone like me that is just starting out shooting a recurve.


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## Arthor Morgen

WoW, Great


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## jonnybravo

Newbie here as well. Great read!


----------



## nitron125

Great help understanding different methods


----------



## Joe Hohmann

Not a method, just an observation. I have found that REALLY concentrating on the very center of the bulls-eye works for me. Not the arrow, or where it is in relation to the bulls-eye. Just "drill" a hole in it with your both eyes open. This may be why I do much better with the white center/blue target compared to the common multi-color one. The white area is easier to concentrate on because it is much more defined on the blue target.

I think this 20 yard target design is used as a scoring standard. It has 5 rings...5,4,3,2,1 and you use 5 arrows. So a perfect score for the 5 shots is 25. Then do this 12 times, for a possible perfect score of 300. The best I have done was 248, and believe me, it took a lot of work and luck to do that.


----------



## DCRICE1

Great read, Thanks.


----------



## Krik860

Thank you for al the information. I'm new to trad shooting and this is very helpful.


----------



## GigiSO

Getting back into it after a shoulder injury about two years ago. I’m not sure if I’m split vision or gap at target, but I’m excited to figure it out and then work on perfecting it.


----------



## thenitecafe

thanks for the helpful post!


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## drudd

So here is a question you might be able to help with. I haven't been as diligent at shooting regularly so I keep at a 10-15 yard shot. I've never done anything but stare intently at the target....that works for me now. However, if i do start to move further away from the target, will the "instinctive" style still work? Will my mind-body relationship adjust to the target being further away or will I have to start focusing above the target? Haven't got that far so I don't know but I have been thinking about it.


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## Sipsey River

Interesting post and comments


----------



## Clayphillips07

*Super Helpful*

Thanks so much for the various descriptions. This is by far the most detailed explanation of the various aiming techniques.


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## Clayphillips07

I would start by taking 1 step back at a time to see if there is variation in your shots, this will help answer your question.


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## Clayphillips07

You should check out "The Push: A Traditional Archery Film" on Youtube. In the middle of the film he offers some suggestions based on what you are shooting for and its super helpful for deciding.


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## Clayphillips07

I would check out "The Push: A Traditional Archery Film" on Youtube. It's super helpful.


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## crbrown68

Great post, gives excellent information


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## jkingw71

Thank you. Excellent read. Just started gap shooting and saw immediate improvement in elevation accuracy.


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## Chris1ny

Still outstanding after all these years.


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## Cobra Pilot

Being left handed and right eyed I guess the split vision is what I use.
Shooting in early or late light really is not a handicap nor is shooting at an aerial target....great post or a new member who since the mid-50's just called it instinctive. I didn't even know I was using the opposite eye until I taped a bow sight on my new Herters bow and missed the basketball by four feet to the left at 20 yards...45(?) years later I put a Peep Eliminator on my Super Short and could finally just use my right eye...I've gone back to a stick bow and ain't goin' back...


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## TUNAFISH

Thank you for Sharing
it Definitely cleared a few things up for me


----------



## Oceanseedfarm

Thanks for this!!


----------



## thamm

This is really a great overview of aiming. I have done several over the years, sometimes subconsciously, but it is nice to apply values to focus and attention to separate the methods. Thank you.


----------



## Marklite

Instinctive split finger, the rest I don't know.


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## MorrisZ

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Great post, well put together, it makes me glad I am able to shoot instinctive, because otherwise it is just too complicated for me. Luckily for me I have even learned that there is not need to have a "laser focus" or "hyper focus" on the target, just a focus, and a consistent draw, anchor and release, I have learned to shoot better (or should I say) more consistent by not over focusing. When I learned to relax, my instinctive shooting went up a level.


----------



## MorrisZ

Marklite said:


> Instinctive split finger, the rest I don't know.


Bingo. That is what drew me into traditional gear in the first place, I no longer need to know how far my target is. Which comes in really handy when you are hunting and the intensity level is up. Big bull elk comes in screaming and I no longer crap my pants like before. Before I would have to worry about "ranging" him first. Not now, just pick a spot, draw, anchor, release, watch the pointy stick hit where I looked!


----------



## ScottDiGi

This is the first I have heard of different shooting styles with a recurve. My teacher never even mentioned more than one.


----------



## Twotimer

Awesome post, I developed into an instinctive shooter many years ago after various gap shooting methods.thanks for a very informative post.


----------



## CBald1

Very interesting, I had heard about gap shooting and understood the concept but had never seen it laid out quite that explicitly. Thanks


----------



## SuperTrad_22

I shoot instinctive until my point on which is 40 yards!


----------



## DarthMazur

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


This is the best inatructo


Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


This is the best advice I've seen. Great stuff.


----------



## DarthMazur

CBald1 said:


> Very interesting, I had heard about gap shooting and understood the concept but had never seen it laid out quite that explicitly. Thanks


Yeah I second this. This is a really helpful post.


----------



## DarthMazur

Old Sarge said:


> Very concise and well illustrated post. You will certainly help a lot of shooters with this information. Good job!


Agreed. This is one of the better instructional I've seen.


----------



## Manx2020

instinctive where it's at for me.


----------



## swanny66

Gap here. Tried instinctive but just couldn't get confident and consistent.


----------



## Stijn_beeckmans

How do you guys measure your gaps?

With this i mean, you know the distance to the target and know what the gap has to be, but how do you estimate/measure the gap in your shot, tip of the arrow to the target. 

I know my gaps, but i have a hard time of measuring the gap in shot, which brings in doubt...

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A505FN met Tapatalk


----------



## Elitetech

Great post! Learned a lot of new techniques to try and find what’s the best for me.


----------



## c_m_shooter

Stijn_beeckmans said:


> How do you guys measure your gaps?
> 
> With this i mean, you know the distance to the target and know what the gap has to be, but how do you estimate/measure the gap in your shot, tip of the arrow to the target.
> 
> I know my gaps, but i have a hard time of measuring the gap in shot, which brings in doubt...
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A505FN met Tapatalk


Do you know the size of your target? In Field archery the target face is a given size for each yardage. When setting up your 3d rig, it can be good to shoot an arrow weight that keeps your gaps on foam at all distances on a normal deer target. A high anchor and a 30 yard point on distance will put all arrows in the kill zone from 10-25 yards holding where the front leg meets the body. Of course there are other targets, but that takes care of most of them.


----------



## MtnOak

I guess I’m more instinctive with one over and one under, my groups are way tighter if I leave my wring finger OFF the string.
I shoot 3 under every now and then just to compare accuracy, I tend to run about the same.... possibly more accurate with 3 under but I hate the way it feels at the shot, just doesn’t feel as natural as the other finger placement when I anchor my index finger under my cheek bone and my middle finger anchored at the corner of my mouth.


----------



## lucydad

Wow, a lot here. Trying to digest. New archer here. Doing ok, but trying to understand why sometimes I have "perfect feeling, natural targeting" and other times misses. I have a long way to go.


----------



## lucydad

Furthermore, there are two schools of thought on aiming. One says you allow the subconcious to run the shot while focusing on executing with correct form. The other focuses conciously on the aiming and allows the subconcious to execute the shot. I know people who are in both camps and do very well. It really comes down to how your brain functions. There is no one right way to do something but there is a best way for each person.
[/QUOTE]

I am very right brain oriented: patterns and shapes and art make my brain happy. As a new recurve archer, no sights, I have been paying attention to the shots that hit the yellow, and the feel. As an analog, shotgun trap/skeet shooting might have value? I focus primarily on the target, and secondarily on tip of arrow and do try to be consistent on aim and release and form. With time I may fully understand the process that is best for myself. I have had some superb groups, but of course there are arrows outside the yellow and red: why is that? I will keep working the concepts with my coach. I note that if I try too hard: poor groups. Relaxed focus seems to be the yellow brick road? Thanks.


----------



## mtnman57

Wow! Very informative! Thanks for your efforts here!


----------



## Markel

This really helps. Thanks for posting


----------



## Lawlor Coe

Great info, thanks!


----------



## Shrew Classic

I have noticed a lot of competition archers use string walking with great success. I tried it, but it didn't work for me. I am more of a gap shooter. Gets the best groups for me.


----------



## robbiegump

Very good info for a beginner like myself. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wolfmanjm

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Awesome summary ….. although you have my head spinning. I’ve been shooting for years and am not sure which method I‘m using - may explain why I’m not that good of a shooter. Will review a couple more times as it will help me figure it out. Thanks for putting all the effort into the post.


----------



## elboe805

Very helpful, thanks much!


----------



## Onski316

I've seen a lot of people say they're 'instinctive' shooters and I thought I was kinda too until I heard someone explain to me that if you can go out at night in pitch darkness and light up only your target and hit where you want, you're and instinctive shooter. As everyone else basically uses some reference point on their bow/arrow for aiming purposes.


----------



## CareyBrowning

Just making the switch from compound and this was VERY helpful


----------



## Gatorjaw

Just started shooting Trad, this was helpful. Thank you!


----------



## gobent

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Do you use the string for left/right alignment?


----------



## DvonD

Great info! I have shot instinctively for a long time, but have not been able to increase my accuracy at longer distances. I just started experimenting with referencing the riser so that’s awesome to know it’s a technique already in use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## playnsea

FIXED CRAWL=STRINGWALK+GAPSHOOTING


----------



## pade

Looking to start shooting trad, thanks for the info


----------



## zamani

Outstanding post... Thanks.


----------



## paytonfan73

What level of accuracy do most archers get at 10-30 yards with traditional equipment?


----------



## Sukach

Just what I needed to get started. Thanks.


----------



## RH1980

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


This is good stuff! Looks like I’m split vision.


----------



## PPeluso

Awesome information...


----------



## FJB

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Good stuff


----------



## Mortis Sagittas

I believe I just stumbled across the best explanation of aiming a traditional bow with no sights. I finally know that I'm actually a split vision shooter. I was never sure of the difference between that and instinctive but your pictures were perfect. Thanks!


----------



## inigo

I have been shooting for 10 years and in the last year I finally started to realize the importance of repeating the same draw sequence and anchor and paying attention to the sight picture and tip of my arrow. Doing that I am able shoot much more accurately


----------



## Va doe slayer

Great stuff!!!


----------



## Brando'

Yay!


----------



## Shane leonzio

Good post. Nice clarification


----------



## Busetim

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Thank you, this was really good information for me. I haven’t shot traditional for many years and I think I forgot just about everything I knew about sighting, so it was timely for me. I fired my first arrows in the past couple of days. Thanks again, Tim


----------



## kkilt967

Thanks for clarification


----------



## 988786

Amazing and detailed description of these methods.

As for me, I started out using compound as a gift from my father and tried to use the sights on the bow, but they never felt right and my shots weren't the most accurate.

I felt like I was concentrating too much on the sights and relying on the technology of the bow, when I should be concentrating on the target and listen to my intuition.

Once I got a traditional bow, everything just... made sense.

I believe I shoot instinctive, as I focus mainly or what I believe to be: fully, on the target. My shots are... very accurate and I can internally gauge distances without accurately knowing any real methods of measurements, i.e feet, meters or yards. 

I couldn't tell you or give you a good estimate of how far 10 or 20 meters is away from me without looking at the length of an actual meter stick first, but I can damn well put an arrow in the center of a target at relatively any range, short medium or long.

And it's hard to explain, but it's just an internal feeling. I just know how I need to arc/ angle the bow, tilt it, etc, I lease the arrow and boom, it either hits the target or if it is very far away and doesn't hit, it gets very close.


----------



## JasmyneD

This was really helpful; I’m newer to traditional archery (well, archery in general) and this will help a lot with being more consistently accurate. Thanks!


----------



## saintvrain

I had no idea there were so many ways to frame a shot -- great post.


----------



## jtsevits

This was helpful


----------



## ToddRvs66

I have invented my own system it is a cross between gap and instinctive, I call it Fling and sting... It works for me


----------



## Hunter35745

Always shot my best when I was only aware of the tiny spot I focused on.


----------



## tayb0w

I am going to try the “gapping with the shaft” method…I never thought of that before. Thanks for a great post.


----------



## Gunable

I didn't know there were that many methods. Some seem too complex for hunting situations


----------



## Rattus580

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


I shoot "instinctively" but I'm not certain it's purely instinctive... I use my arrow as a reference, which I think most of us do, but I'm not really an entirely gap shooter as much as I am a "learned" shooter of my practiced distances. I won't shoot at an animal over about 25 yards max anymore and my last sheep was taken from about 10 yards. Get way less shots but as of late, haven't lost an animal either as I have in the past... which made me sick. To me, you need to take the shots, but have a referenced sight picture to keep it likely a harvest.


----------



## oc_in_fw

Thanks for this. I am a new recurve shooter (intro in the appropriate section) and have been using gap at target.


----------



## mrwatts07

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
> 
> Gapping with the Shaft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
> 
> Gap at Riser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
> 
> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
> 
> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


Great info!!


----------



## 1old buck

"I shoot "instinctively" but I'm not certain it's purely instinctive... I use my arrow as a reference, which I think most of us do, but I'm not really an entirely gap shooter as much as I am a "learned" shooter of my practiced distances."

Shooting a bow has ZERO to do with instincts ( rocks are flying now) but as said "learned" by lots of practice. Animals do tings by instinct, like birds flying south for winter etc. etc. etc. They DON'T have to practice beforehand to do it.
That being said...shooting a bow without sights is simply BAREBOW shooting and there are many variations to figure out which aiming style works best for you. How do you find which variation is best for you?
Practice practice practice and then shoot some more. Tom Brady isn't a great passer because of instincts...he has to .....you know...practice practice practice. Some people just learn faster and have better muscle memory.


----------



## Mcmojoe

I am new to archery and still trying to find the best way to aim for myself. This is really helpful
Information. Thank you!


----------



## Ahhshoot348

I was just thinking about this today and specifically what I do to hit a target with my trad bows. I decided it was a combination of look and feel. I’m focused on the target exclusively as it pertains to vision. But compounded with that is the ‘feel’ of my body geometry as it relates to where I’m looking. At full draw I feel like I can tell when my body ‘geometry’ is ‘locked in’ to where I’m looking and that’s when the arrow flies. Is my body geometry and the concentration of energy aligned with the target in intending to hit? That’s pretty much what I’m feeling when shooting without sights. As one who also shoots a compound, which is almost entirely visual by comparison, using indicators and visual alignment, it is very different feeling. I almost feel like you’re better off looking at it like you’re concentrating the energy of the bow as closely to the direction of whatever you’re looking at, rather than ‘aiming’ or ‘aiming points’ when it comes to the traditional stuff. In other words, visually lock on to what you are trying to hit, and move your body alignment to match up to it. It takes practice but i think that’s the layman’s way of making it happen.

EDIT: yes I look at the tip of the arrow, but it’s not what I’m using primarily, it’s more of a verification to what ‘feels right,’ kind of like checking the level before firing off the compound etc.


----------



## tradesylver

This has been a great read. Now to take this info and try to figure out what method I've been using. Should be an interesting study in self awareness. Thanks


----------



## whiteshadow

They call it instinctive for a reason…Good info.


----------



## Larry Dean

A test, find your point on and start shooting. How long does it take before you are ignoring the arrow point and only focussing on the target? Then work in from point on, at first you will notice your gap growing, but with repeated 'work ins' your 'grooved in' automatic response will take over. Is that 'muscle memory, automatic response, instinctive or 'grooved in'? The terms really don't matter, but out hunting when quick or awkward shots are required, it certainly helps to not worry about the mechanical details.


----------



## smithca1988

Larry Dean said:


> A test, find your point on and start shooting. How long does it take before you are ignoring the arrow point and only focussing on the target? Then work in from point on, at first you will notice your gap growing, but with repeated 'work ins' your 'grooved in' automatic response will take over. Is that 'muscle memory, automatic response, instinctive or 'grooved in'? The terms really don't matter, but out hunting when quick or awkward shots are required, it certainly helps to not worry about the mechanical details.


I use the Howard Hill Split vison/instinctive Gap shooting as it is called right hand but left eye dominate. I have seen the more recent video the one part like you have on Inertnet and founf the 2018 book Howard Hills Method of shooting the Bow and Arrow by Jerry Hill and have used about 85--90% of the book to help with the method of shooting I use. I did not know I was using the flat handle grip on all my bows from day one the notched grip being my favorate for flat limb longbows/ASL as often the flat handle is made in a few styles that do not work for me, one is too deep for my small hands, and I can with notched grip and flat back still do a straight handle grip. Then with recurves I like to get as close of a grip as I can to the full straight handle grip as I can. I like these grips becuse they are more solid for me and using a target grip even when doing target stuff with a recurve seems to hurt my performance as the bow wants to go left or right on me with a finger sling and then with a recurve in other grips, I tend to torque the bow left or right depending on finger strength.

My brother he does a style of snap instinctive in that he is arming instinctively only at the target/95% on the target with 5% arrow at most but aims so fast he can snap as soon as he gets to his full draw, .5 seconds after at most. Also he has duel dominancy with nearly 20/20 and this is why he can't really even look at the arrow, both eyes are then fighting for the arrow and he will either miss the target or have the arrow flying into the ground before the target. The dual dominancy is a reason he has to with open V or bead sights on guns have the sight in such a way he is looking down the sight with both eyes, however any kind of scope or open ring sight including compound/target bow he can pick an eye as long as the other is open.


----------



## Larry Dean

smithca1988 said:


> I use the Howard Hill Split vison/instinctive Gap shooting as it is called right hand but left eye dominate. I have seen the more recent video the one part like you have on Inertnet and founf the 2018 book Howard Hills Method of shooting the Bow and Arrow by Jerry Hill and have used about 85--90% of the book to help with the method of shooting I use. I did not know I was using the flat handle grip on all my bows from day one the notched grip being my favorate for flat limb longbows/ASL as often the flat handle is made in a few styles that do not work for me, one is too deep for my small hands, and I can with notched grip and flat back still do a straight handle grip. Then with recurves I like to get as close of a grip as I can to the full straight handle grip as I can. I like these grips becuse they are more solid for me and using a target grip even when doing target stuff with a recurve seems to hurt my performance as the bow wants to go left or right on me with a finger sling and then with a recurve in other grips, I tend to torque the bow left or right depending on finger strength.
> 
> My brother he does a style of snap instinctive in that he is arming instinctively only at the target/95% on the target with 5% arrow at most but aims so fast he can snap as soon as he gets to his draw .5 seconds later at most. Also he has duel dominancy with nearly 20/20 and this is why he can't really even look at the arrow, both eyes are then fighting for the arrow and he will either miss the target or have the arrow flying into the ground before the target. The dual dominancy is a reason he has to with open V or bead sights on guns have the sight in such a way he is looking down the sight with both eyes, however any kind of scope or open ring sight including compound/target bow he can pick an eye as long as the other is open.


I also do not have a dominant eye, I shoot either left or right handed with guns or bows. The one I always tell beginners that do not have their inner aim working. Your eyes see what they see, you cannot stop that. For shooting right handed you will see two arrows. One slightly higher on the left and one slightly lower to the right. The higher indirect image of the arrow to the left is what your right eye sees. The reverse is true for shooting left handed. I use something bright as a general marker for newbies for a secondary, like a bright red kick ball. When they shoot I tell them 'do not look at the ball'. When they tell me that it is the wrong place, I kick the ball off to the side.


----------



## I-Am-Cornholio

Str8 Shooter said:


> With all the recent discussions about the different methods of aiming a trad bow I took the time to take a few pics and add visual references to help explain how each method is done. Hopefully they will make understanding the various methods a little bit simpler.
> 
> Instinctive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The instinctive shooter focuses on the target and nothing else. Visually, all that is seen is the desired target. Logically we know that the peripheral vision picks up external cues, however, the mind for all intents and purposes does not see them. Without getting into a variety of definitions the concious mind relegates these things to the subconcious and adjusting for windage and elevation are done without any direction from the concious mind. That is essentially the main difference between instinctive shooting and any reference aiming method. A reference shooter will be able to tell you, at some level, where the aiming reference they use was held. An instinctive shooter will not.
> 
> Getting into the reference methods...
> 
> All these methods are based upon learning the point on distance of the bow setup. The point on distance is the point where the shooters line of sight and the trajectory of the arrow meet. This will vary from shooter to shooter. Things like arrow speed, arrow length, anchor point, hold on the string (split finger or three under) will all affect the point on distance. This isn't an all inclusive list of factors. Many reference shooters will tailor the point on distance to the style of shooting done. Many short distance shooters like hunters, 3D and indoor archers will setup for a closer point on. Shooters who enjoy shooting long distance generally set up with a longer point on distance to minimize hold over on far targets.
> 
> Split Vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a step up from instinctive shooting in terms of conciously referencing an aiming point. For many shooters this it is based more on an acquired sight picture. There may not be any hard and fast gaps or references but they are aware of the arrow, riser, etc. These things are generally seen in the peripheral vision and things are lined up until the picture looks correct.
> 
> Various Gap methods...
> 
> Gap at target:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method involves the shooter knowing the amount of trajectory the arrow has at various points until the point on distance. They will generally pick a spot above or below the target that coincides with the amount of trajectory the have to compensate for and place the arrow on that spot. For example, say a shooter needs to hold 12" below the target at 20 yards. They visualize that spot and place the arrow at what they percieve to be 12" below the target. The focus remains on the intended target but they are maintaining that gap in their peripheral vision. This method is very similar to pick a point.
> 
> Pick a Point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The setup the shot is virtually the same as gapping at the target. The main difference is where the focus lies. If a gap shooter maintains 90% focus on the target and 10% on the gap the opposite would be said of a pick a point shooter. 90% of the focus would be on holding on the pre-determined spot with 10% the actual target. In essence, the shooter is using the point to try hitting a certain spot but the trajectory carries it to the spot above or below.
> 
> Short Gap (or Gap at Bow):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This method is a little different from the gap at target method. It involves the shooter visualizing the target as being a spot that is directly in front of the arrow. Almost like a painting and the arrow is the brush. The point on distance is known. Above or below that the shooter would see the arrow (as a brush for my analogy) moving in very small amounts to compenate for trajectory. The archer moves the arrow in fractions of an inch at the bow. A picture is easier to explain but it involves seeing the target as a two-dimensional object. This can be difficult for some people because the brain sees in 3D and you have to see it as a picture and see the actual amount the arrow moves directly at the bow. This can be hard because while the arrow may only move a fraction of an inch at the bow the tip in relation to the target may move several inches or feet.
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> This one's fairly self explanatory. The shooter utilizes the shaft as a measuring device for how much to hold over/under. Through practice a shooter will know how many shaft diameters above or below they need to hold. The advantage to this method is it breaks down the adjustments into easy to see units and do not require as much visualization. The downside is as distances grow the shaft becomes larger in relation to the target and makes fine adjustment a little harder. At 20 yards the tip may only cover a portion of the target. At 60 yards the tip may cover the entire bail and one shaft diameter may move the visual reference several feet.
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> This method utilizes various points on the riser as a rudimentary sighting reference. These references may be a side plate, a plunger, the arm of a rest, a lamination on the belly of the riser, the shelf of the bow or any point the shooter wants to use. A shooter estimates the yardage and at full draw will line up one of these references with the target. If the target is the correct distance and the correct reference is used the arrow will impact in the center of the intended target. This method may not be quite as precise as gapping at the target, short gapping or picking a point but it gives the shooter a concrete visual reference. You don't have to visualize arcs or trajectory, you simply line up the reference point and execute the shot.
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> Now, many of these methods may be used in conjunction with another. Perhaps you have a long point on distance. You may gap off the riser at shorter distances because the gaps at target are huge and you can't visualize a short gap. As the targets get further out you may transition to a short gap because you can see the difference between 1/4" and 1/2" or you gap at target. At point on you simply utilize the point directly on the bullseye. And once past point on you may transition to pick a point. You know how far the arrow drops past point on so you visualize a spot above the target the appropriate amount and aim at that, trusting the arrow will drop into the target.
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> These methods blur together. While one method will work for one shooter another may not be able to visualize the correct hold. This picture illustrates the actual hold remains the same but a shooter may utilize any of the above references to break down the aiming method into one the mind can use simply and effectively. That, in essence, is all these methods are. They are a means of compensating for the trajectory arrow and allowing the shooter to control the process. Some shooters will excel with the instinctive method because they aren't good at concentrating on a reference and the target. People like this are better off allowing the subconcious mind to take care of the aiming and allowing the concious to run the shot. Yet, for all the people that are good at instinctive there are just as many people who feel out of control without some type of referencing system. Without something to focus on they never develop confidence and never acquire the accuracy they desire. Shooters like this will do well to experiment with various aiming methods until they find one which suits there style.
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> Please, lets keep this from devolving into an arguing match with a million quotes and twisting of words. I want this to be a good thread to help explain aiming methods to new and old shooters alike. If you are learning feel free to ask for help and if you currently use on of these methods chime in and describe how you do it.


This is excellent. Do you or anyone in the comments know of any good videos or articles explaining how to do a crawl and also how to mark ranges out on a finger tab? I saw something about it on YouTube a long time ago and have no idea where I saw it


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## smithca1988

Only one the OP person forgot was the 100% no aim snap shooter becuse they want to be this way ether speed shooting due to Lars Anderson or they are using __ style of bow often unbacked on either side and they think snap shooting is the best way to preserve the bow, at least this is 90% of the reasons for wanting to snap shoot. This is other then few rare hunters who are so good at instinctive naturally the hunter wants to snap shoot for that 0.001 of a second the animal is in the right spot and the hunter has a very fast shooting a without release device bow like some type of performance recurve with carbon fiber backed limbs and fast flight string faster then D-97 like Spectra on up or a lever bow sans sight and finger drawing.


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## Larry Dean

smithca I would not jump to generalities on those skilled at snap shooting. When done properly there are a number of very finite things that go into the development. I snap shoot, even though if I want, I can delay the release. Beyond 25 yards I acknowledge the arrow. If one is on target when one reaches anchor and at a proper full draw, what is to be gained by a long holding time. A chance for the game to move or a chance for the archer to second guess himself. A static shooter will always have a hard time with the concept, I did until I could do it myself. A skill set that does not come automatically for many.


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## smithca1988

I-Am-Cornholio said:


> This is excellent. Do you or anyone in the comments know of any good videos or articles explaining how to do a crawl and also how to mark ranges out on a finger tab? I saw something about it on YouTube a long time ago and have no idea where I saw it


The Push YouTube channel is one of them with the first video, the one from 5--6 years ago that is a tick over 1 hour long. He has the time stamps in the description part. He does go over a crawl then does for hunters a fixed crawl. He has since gotten partnered with DAAS bows the 21 inch ILF bow riser made for hunters that want to do Barebow target and 3D hunter division with the same bow riser and possibly limbs.

I do not watch most of those videos from the Push but did on a more recent one that was just under or over 1 hours on the longbow since that and less aggressive styles of recurve limb bows in 1 piece/2 piece that function like a 1 piece are the two types I like best.


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## smithca1988

smithca1988 said:


> The Push YouTube channel is one of them with the first video, the one from 5--6 years ago that is a tick over 1 hour long. He has the time stamps in the description part. He does go over a crawl then does for hunters a fixed crawl. He has since gotten partnered with DAAS bows the 21 inch ILF bow riser made for hunters that want to do Barebow target and 3D hunter division with the same bow riser and possibly limbs.
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> I do not watch most of those videos from the Push but did on a more recent one that was just under or over 1 hours on the longbow since that and less aggressive styles of recurve limb bows in 1 piece/2 piece that function like a 1 piece are the two types I like best.


My Brother does instinctive Snap shooting where he does instincvie but so fast it is but it helps he has dual dominancy and very good near 20/20 at 25/20 Eyesight to where he does not need glasses for 90% of things, but for all accuracy sports he does.

Sorry I was basing off people who have worse vison like me but can do instinctive so well they can snap shoot at 0.5 seconds or faster. I can't do that and have always done some form of split vision.

I however am one of the few people who can hold for a while then get the arrow to the spot chosen, provided I am aiming correctly with a modified Howard Hill style that ends up more between split vison and instinctive gap without an extra aiming point/arrow point for the string in the way The Push the first movie video does the hunting version of Gap.


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## Larry Dean

On Dave Schulz instagram page, he has a video of him giving archery instructions. It is a short. He says 'corner of your mouth and hold it'. The hold is less than a second, Tom Schulz has a slight delay at anchor, when shooting left handed I find I need that intent on deepening my anchor to shoot tight groups. On longer shots it is a natural part of my shot. My normal 25 yards and less shot time from beginning of my draw to release is one full second, maybe a bit more at long shots with the deepening of the anchor tweak. If one develops a release issue, they need to slow that way down. People get all over themselves trying to define TP, that is not a cure to a sloppy or a jumped early release. If someone shoots fast, that is not TP. If someone cannot hold when shooting at a common backyard target, that is not TP. That is most often the brain taking a bit of a short cut on a boring repetitive motion, don't call it Tp. One of the most common errors when learning the Hill shooting method is to get ahead of yourself, then the anchor begins to get cheated. Keep it slow as John Schulz instructs, until full and proper form is ingrained. 
Your point on gap shooting or secondary aim, mechanically the same thing. Jerry Hill explains Hill's aiming method in his book. Bob Wesley explained a form of it in his little book, where he uses the term 'grooved in'. On secondary aimingI have noticed two reactions when people try it. One with new shooters that do not have years of varied experience, a light bulb goes off, the release gets smooth and stable as the aiming confidence kicks in. The other with full on yank and let go shooters when they attempt to mimic the hook in the draw that Jerry explained, when attempting to establish a secondary point, resembles a nervous breakdown. For new shooters, the learning curve can be shortened by understanding secondary aiming, it smooths out in time and becomes like Bob said, 'grooved in'. For those that are true snap shooters and are good shots on game, I think the aiming is still there it is simply on a more subconscious level. For those that are out of control sloppy, been there done that myself, it is important to man up and perfect every part of the form one aspect at a time, as John Schulz teaches. You may find that you may acknowledge the position of the arrow as you come to anchor, that is a good thing, but don't ever focus your vision on the arrow, keep it on the exact spot you want that arrow to go. The shot is not finished at the anchor, it is not finished at the release, it is finished at the end of the follow through. This needs to engrained at a large close target where one is only working on hundreds of shots for form and not aiming at anything, while working on only one aspect of form at a time. 
My bows are put away until the spring, it is my learn new music for guitar season, with maybe a couple of breaks to let my beagle harass a bunny or two. I will be using my 22 mag mares leg for that this year. Till spring time.


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