# SAVING $$ with HOMEMADE..?



## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

It appears you have some bitterness towards DIY? Weren't you a DIY at one time when you created the Kwik-Shooter? You have to remember some people love to tinker (as I am sure you do) and take pride in DIY. Does it always save you money or time? Probably not if you put a value on your time. However, the satisfaction of standing back and looking at something that you built yourself is priceless!:thumbs_up Especially when it works! LOL!


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## pvoltmer (Aug 5, 2010)

yep! Well said. Nothing like building something and using it and saying "man, I made that! Looks good, works good, and a job well done!" Nothing like self-satisfaction.



Perry24 said:


> It appears you have some bitterness towards DIY? Weren't you a DIY at one time when you created the Kwik-Shooter? You have to remember some people love to tinker (as I am sure you do) and take pride in DIY. Does it always save you money or time? Probably not if you put a value on your time. However, the satisfaction of standing back and looking at something that you built yourself is priceless!:thumbs_up Especially when it works! LOL!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interesting thread. 

Since this has been directed at me (without specifically naming me), I will answer the question posted. 

1) People like to tinker. I'm one of those. 

2) As an engineer by training, the basis of the nicknamed "Ryobi Robo-bow" is using a base item that has the ability to handle far more punishment than a bow can handle.

3) any product starts off as a DIY project. I can guarantee that the OP went through countless number of prototypes before settling on the final design. 

With that being said, I'm going to state some other things. Some are personal commentary. 

A) I'm not selling the Ryobi Robo-bow. I'm offering up how to build one, for free. 

B) Many people don't have the welding and fabrication abilities or access to such. Even though I can weld and cut, I don't have access to stuff like that. Many archers are in a similar dilemma. 

C) Many people start off with COTS (common off the shelf) items to create their DIY projects. This is no different. 

D) The overall methodologies on creating a mechanical bow shooter isn't new. The Ryobi Robo-bow just simplifies it. 

E) I'm not competing with you. 

I await other's comments with interest. 

-Steve


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## ChristopherRus (Nov 15, 2010)

Is it possible to agree with BOTH? Of course there are times that common sense says spend some money and get a good finished product. I think even the hardest of hard core DIYers and Tinkerers (Beastmaster and myself included) would agree, as evidenced by the fact that he, his wife, and his son shoot production bows, and I bought a new bow instead of trying to make drastic DIY changes in an OLD compound that I was given. 

That said, there are times when availability or cost or any number of other factors mean that we "take matters into our own hands". I think that even Jim46ok would agree that there are times when DIYer justifyable looks at something and says.... I can do that better, or differently, or smaller, or easier, or for less money. Jim46ok... you probably fletch / build your own arrows right? 

Me I love tinkering... My son and I are gonna try to figure out a way to attach / build recurve limbs onto a old cheap compound bow that I bought for 20 bucks. the youth/toy compound bow my daughter (6) was shooting just got a little too easy to pull, and couldn't shoot the arrows as far as she wanted.... my solution. I backed the limbs with paint stir sticks from Lowes and electric tape. doesn't look to bad.. added a pound or to to the draw, and the arrows shoot another 3 or four yards. A big deal when you are shooting at 10 yrd targets. I am still pleased at my first fletch arrow... Did it by eye (no Jig) with gel super glue after I tore a couple of vanes. I smile when I shoot and it groups right in with the manufactured arrows I bought. But after all isn't that kind of what a hobby is about?


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## Sisco (Sep 23, 2010)

Did you really need to post this topic twice under slightly different titles? :/

I have seen some DIY items made with more quality than cheap manifactured products. If DIY isn't for you, then simply avoid the DIY forum.


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## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

No, Perry24, no bitterness. Almost every successful product started as “tinkering.” And, you are correct, in that I still stand back and take pride in what I build, constantly improving on the theme. (Thanks in advance for not taking what I say out of context.)

BEASTMASTER, I mean you no slander...and thanks for generously sharing your ideas with all. If I wasn't where I am today with KWIK-SHOOTER, I would be tempted to try one myself!

If you get the results you need from your machine, great. You are done. If you want more, you will keep changing, improving, sourcing better materials, etc. But, “if it ain't broke, don't fix it.” 

Please keep in mind when reading my post, that I offer an AFFORDABLE alternative to the $1300-2200 Shooting Machines available. Not to say it is for everybody, but those who don't have the “tinker” mentality, ability or desire. Some, including Competitors, other Manufacturers, and Tuners want a Commercially available Shooting Machine they can setup and use. And looks good in their shop. And has a Warranty.

Frankly, most of our sales are to Dealers, Shops, Pro Staff Shooters and other Archery Manufacturers. A few really serious Hunters and Target shooters want to take their Tuning to a higher level. Our endorsements prove it gives them what they want.

BEAST, if you run into ?s or dilemmas in your tuning efforts, I would be happy to answer what I can. You are free to download the .pdf INSTRUCTION MANUAL from www.kwik-shooter,com. 

Also, other Manufacturers (such as Spott Hogg) have made available Instructions on Shooting Machine operation, Safety, arrow Tuning, etc. In fact a good demo of Arrow Tuning is available on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETBidXgLLug

Don't worry, there are enough good ideas to go around! And FLAMING helps nobody.

Thanks, folks. Jim


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## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

Sisco said:


> Did you really need to post this topic twice under slightly different titles? :/
> 
> I have seen some DIY items made with more quality than cheap manifactured products. If DIY isn't for you, then simply avoid the DIY forum.


If I want to. I am a Supporting Manufacturer and an AT member. Thanks for noticing. As a new member to AT, it's for sure you will see a lot of Archers helping other Archers in one way or another.


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

jim46ok said:


> If I want to. I am a Supporting Manufacturer and an AT member. Thanks for noticing. As a new member to AT, it's for sure you will see a lot of Archers helping other Archers in one way or another.



Oh so because your a supporting manufacture and member your **** dont stink? you can do what you want, Well so can everyone else. Do you feel any better having two post the same? Hate to tell you but perhaps you need to learn a few things about marketing. Coming on here and throwing a fit Is NOT going to help you with sales from ANYONE on here, IMHO only thing you have done is ruined your chances for possable sales.


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## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

oneluckypops said:


> Oh so because your a supporting manufacture and member your **** dont stink? you can do what you want, Well so can everyone else. Do you feel any better having two post the same? Hate to tell you but perhaps you need to learn a few things about marketing. Coming on here and throwing a fit Is NOT going to help you with sales from ANYONE on here, IMHO only thing you have done is ruined your chances for possable sales.


Not at all. Level playing field for everybody...Actually, at 6 this morning my typing isn't so good. I thought I lost the first post, and re-typed it. By that time, I had responses to answer. So I didn't get the 1st edited before edit priveledges expired, to remove the first. And stating I am a Supporting Retailer just means I have a vested interest in the success of AT. And throwing a fit? hmmmmmm By the way, I believe substituting **** for a profanity is frowned upon....


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## oneluckypops (Feb 24, 2007)

jim46ok said:


> Not at all. Level playing field for everybody...Actually, at 6 this morning my typing isn't so good. I thought I lost the first post, and re-typed it. By that time, I had responses to answer. So I didn't get the 1st edited before edit priveledges expired, to remove the first. And stating I am a Supporting Retailer just means I have a vested interest in the success of AT. And throwing a fit? hmmmmmm By the way, I believe substituting **** for a profanity is frowned upon....


LOL accidental double posting is sometimes understandable. BUT FYI **** was not what I typed, If it would have actually showed what I typed then that would have been frownded on.


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## Sisco (Sep 23, 2010)

jim46ok said:


> If I want to. I am a Supporting Manufacturer and an AT member. Thanks for noticing. As a new member to AT, it's for sure you will see a lot of Archers helping other Archers in one way or another.


"If I want to. I am a Supporting Manufacturer" is a lot different song than "at 6 this morning my typing isn't so good. I thought I lost the first post, and re-typed it.". If you just explained that it would have been better understood. As far as me being new, who cares. I have a stick and string that shoots arrows too. I am also a member here too and obviously I have an interest in seeing any forum succeed that promotes one of my hobbies too.

Your original post came across as a little anti-DIY, but now with a bit of context, it appears a little more like "Why put the effort into making something when you can just buy it off me". Personally, most people in the DIY forum see what others make and want to do it for fun and education. Some may have been into DIY longer and have more 'tinker' skills, but we all started somewhere. If a product takes me longer to make, or costs me a little more to make with trial and error, it is still fun and a learning experience. If I don't think I can make a product as good or better than a manufactured product, I just just buy it, but to each their own.

Personally, no hard feelings, but a little professionalism would go a long ways.


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## Omega (Jul 5, 2004)

I make what I can and buy the rest. 

The bow press I'm making will save me hundreds of dollars and it's simple, inexpensive and durable. I do my own bow setups, tuning and fletch my own arrows. I won't try to make carbon arrow shafts or build a compound bow. The equipment and know how are out of my reach, so I buy things like that.

Not everyone on this board is "made of money", thus there is a need for some DIY equipment for some of us. It's a bit insulting to post in the DIY forum with an anti-DIY mindset, IMO. Your promotional efforts would be best exercised in helpfulness to others and education of the members about your offerings.


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## turkeytom (May 8, 2003)

jim46ok said:


> Wow. So many smart and creative folks out there and here on the forums!! All kinds of slings, stabilizers, stands, cases, targets, etc..... no end to what we will think of to enjoy our sport and save some $$.
> 
> The Dilemma comes when one weighs the cost, function and appearance of said HOMEMADE device against a MANUFACTURED, tried and true and ENDORSED product.
> 
> ...


I'm not even sure as how to take this post or reply to it.But I will give it a shot.
First paragraph,I will have to say is correct.
Second paragraph,I will have to say that your dilemma is a personal problem.Some, and as a matter of fact a lot of HOMEMADE devices are as good in function and appearance as said manufactured products.As far as weighing the cost.It will almost always be cheaper to make the product than it is to buy it from a manufacturer because the tinkerer wont have to pay overhead and your mark up,or profit margin.
Third paragraph,What on earth makes you think that someone can't produce something that has precision,adjustability,and consistency in their work?Better think again.
Fourth paragraph,I just considered what my time is worth.Darn,It's worth just as much as yours.Imagine that.Next,you make an insulting and ignorant remark assuming every one will be disappointed in their work,and possibly even make something that will damage your bow.Is that a scare tactic of some kind?Then you assume there is no alternative other than buying your product as an end result.What a joke.
Last but not least,The last line in bold print.The whole phrase STINKS.
One more thing.I am going to look at one of yours.Then I might make one exactly like it.EXACTLY like it.Stuff that in your arrogant pipe and smoke it.


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## Deer Eliminator (Jan 21, 2010)

Wow sales must be down! I'd better stop making diy stuff and help all the manufactures.


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## ZGun4n6 (Jan 11, 2010)

Most people who would rather spend big $$$ on new products prob dont even visit the DIY forum much. Personally, I am such a tinkerer and have fallen in love with this section of AT, I don't even go to any other areas of this site hardly ever.

I really do not think that you are losing many sales because of DIY posts. I typically build things that I would never buy new. Ghost Blind: Absolutely awesome product but I would NEVER be able to buy one, so me making my own does not take any business away from the company bc i would not have bought one in the first place. Drawing/shooting machine: also good product that I would NEVER be able to buy, so by building one myself I am not taking any business away from manufacturers. Camo Dipping: again I would never be able to spend ~$300 to have my shotgun professionally dipped, but i can pay $100 to dip my own (along with a ton of other stuff). If anything, people posting DIY methods for comercial products is raising awareness of the manufactured product. I am a DIY'er but most of my friends are not... when they see things that I have built, they ask about it and then many times, go out and spend their $$ (more than I have) and buy the comercial product.

Gentlemen --> Keep the DIY ideas coming!!!
I wonder if McDonalds gets upset with Food Network for informing people how they can make their own food? Or mad at grocery stores for selling the ingredients to people? hahaha


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## Deer Eliminator (Jan 21, 2010)

ZGun4n6 said:


> Most people who would rather spend big $$$ on new products prob dont even visit the DIY forum much. Personally, I am such a tinkerer and have fallen in love with this section of AT, I don't even go to any other areas of this site hardly ever.
> 
> I really do not think that you are losing many sales because of DIY posts. I typically build things that I would never buy new. Ghost Blind: Absolutely awesome product but I would NEVER be able to buy one, so me making my own does not take any business away from the company bc i would not have bought one in the first place. Drawing/shooting machine: also good product that I would NEVER be able to buy, so by building one myself I am not taking any business away from manufacturers. Camo Dipping: again I would never be able to spend ~$300 to have my shotgun professionally dipped, but i can pay $100 to dip my own (along with a ton of other stuff). If anything, people posting DIY methods for comercial products is raising awareness of the manufactured product. I am a DIY'er but most of my friends are not... when they see things that I have built, they ask about it and then many times, go out and spend their $$ (more than I have) and buy the comercial product.
> 
> ...


Well said well said!!!!!!!!!! I agree!!!!


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Love to tinker and love to make my own gear. Maybe I can't make it better or can I, but I can make it mine. Have spent twice the cost at times to make it myself.


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## donblood (Apr 13, 2010)

Agreed, I have tinkered, In the end I could have had a better product and cheaper if I wouldn't have been so cheap not to buy the one I wanted in the first place. I guess sometimes it feels better to spend $20 6 times than $100 all at once. That being said ... ooooohhhhh I love saying, I built it (my chest sticks out a little when that happens).


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## Kelleborne (Jan 26, 2009)

I like DIY stuff, but I'm not a rocket scientist, so fletching my own arrows and tree stand mods are about my limit. I havent the time or place to invent and improve.
but,
These guys on here that make the stuff like shooting machines and trail cams, are straight GENIUSES! 
They arent going to sit and buy products without question, when they can use their heads and hands to save some cash, and I dont blame them.
I wish I had the resources to make everything i need.I would.
The industry will take all your coins if you'll give them up
Rise up! DIY'ers

Wile-E Coyote would be proud...


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Wow, I really don't know how to take this thread either. But I do know if I ever get a shooting machine this has helped me to know which one to get............or not to get.


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## straddleridge (Apr 28, 2010)

One of the great things about DIY is like BeastMaster sharing his design and others making changes/improvements. His shooting machine is a great idea and I am sure many will build one and there will be improvements. Already done by LIArcher. Preliminary results on his original thread indicate that it already works pretty well. I know I am building one.


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## pernluc (Jun 18, 2006)

Really for some of us it isn't about saving money. More about the satisfaction of doing something yourself or improving something so that it works better for you individually. I tinker with everything, I have since i was a poor kid growing up. I dint get expensive things when I was a kid so i made them. I made my first climbing stand out of plywood and 3/4 metal conduit. Boy, that thing took some modifications over the years and i still have several of the final product and use them. I make swimbait molds and pour my own soft plastic fishing lures and last spring caught a nine pound walleye on one of them. And bows oh my that a whole other story. Every bow i've hunted with for the last 10 years has been a franken bow of some sort. The bow thing all started with the mathews pro shop guy telling me i couldn't put an 80% letoff cam on my new sq2, I did it with great results. Absolutely, I could have saved a fortune in time and money if I would just be content with the crap that manufacturers try to shove down our throats with clever advertisements. But I wouldnt have had the great times I've had tinkering.


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## deertracker (Aug 4, 2006)

Sounds to me like you need to read the sticky at the top of the DIY forum and then go get a tissue.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1224723

You're basically telling people to stop trying to make their own and buy yours. I think sales ads are supposed to be kept out of DIY.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

deertracker said:


> sounds to me like you need to read the sticky at the top of the diy forum and then go get a tissue.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1224723
> 
> you're basically telling people to stop trying to make their own and buy yours. I think sales ads are supposed to be kept out of diy.


exactimundo!!!!


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## buckbuster31 (Dec 3, 2009)

yea, u just better hope this thread doesnt get too public or u may never sell ur items again. People done like arrogant people typically


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I too like to create my own and I just made an arrow saw and it works great. Now I don't have to travel 15 miles and pay a shop owner 3 or 4 bucks to cut my arrows and glue in inserts. I do it at home and save.........can't beat that.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

yea, u just better hope this thread doesnt get too public or u may never sell ur items again. People done like arrogant people typically 
Yep, I am still waiting for some of my heros to see this one.........


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## shott8283 (Sep 20, 2007)

my personal experience, seldom do mass manufactured or even the so called "custom" manufactured products meet my expectations. i feel that those "engineers" out there may have recieved there degrees from a crack jacks box and most often I can and do come up with a solution to the problem home grown. 

not knocking your product there, OP, but just because you say "buy manufactured, don't waste your time DIY'ing" makes my want to home grow even that much more. 

I laugh at the cheaply and poorly manufactured items out there that don't last, do perform, or just plain suck. especially when someone as simple minded as myself looks at said product, laughs and says "is that all they could come up with?"

And I always live by the rule - "why buy it for $50 when you can build it for $100"


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Here is my perspective, Manufactures are a wonderful source of technology for all of us DIY people. We see what you have come up with, jim46ok, for a price tag that is so far into left field that you have alienated most of the general archers from obtaining one. Then we the, DIY people decide that we can make one of those and do so. Personally, I am a welder/fabricator/CWI and I have made my own equipment. One example is my linear bow press. Thank you Last Chance Archery for the wonderful design. I have not only made my own press but it is by far a better quality and revised design than LCA. There products cost around $600.00 and I am here to tell you that the parts/steel cost for that press is under $100.00. It only takes a good welder/fabricator less than an hour to fit and finish welding one out.

Why would you bother to start a thread, IN THE DIY FORUM, and put us down for doing what we enjoy doing?

You yourself have caused this problem by A) making the design to be copied and B) by making the cost so exorbitant that it assures that it will be copied. I personally thank you and every other manufacture out there for all that you have contributed to the archery community. You all have been great inspiration for our ability to own your products by fabricating, revising, and a better quality than yours.

The only thing you have done here is to reduce a future prospective market for your products.

Also, the free market has a way of fixing these things by themselves. Cost, supply, and demand. There are only so many archery shops in the USA but there sure are a lot more Archers and most of them are on AT.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

My thoughts here.

1) A business is here to make money. If it wasn't there to make money, there's no point in being in business.

2) Labor costs vary. The Kwik Shooter is also powercoated. I don't know how much PC is....

3) This is a specialized piece of equipment. 

4) Not everyone has the ability to make one. I have zero access to welding equipment, chop saws, or the like. I'm not willing to spend money on it either. Therefore, modifying COTS is more effective for me.

5) Not everyone is able to even do what I did. Hence, the Kwik Shooter and stuff like that is there for people unwilling to do the work.

6) We have zero idea on how much R&D cost the OP. Steel isn't cheap - and despite the fact that raw material costs "x" number of dollars, time is worth some money too.

Guys, let up on him. I think it was a gut shot post that I'm sure he's wanting to take off the board. Let it be and let this thread die. If a mod was willing to close this and the other thread that was a repeat, I'd support it.

-Steve


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that this a great educational tool for jim46ok. $549.00 for a tool that you can reasonably make for $160.00. When you are trying to market a product don't you think you would like to know this information. And instead of belittling the DIY community how about trying to gather info on how to revise your product to meet the needs of the target market, assuming it is the archer. If this was my company post #1 was a big mistake. Its not personal, it's business.

JT


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## deertracker (Aug 4, 2006)

You're alright Beastmaster, better character than most.

A business is in business to make money, but that is supposed to be kept out of the DIY section. For a business owner to come in here and try to crap on DIY'ers is just plain wrong. The majority of his posts on AT have something to do with his product. And he even puts his product name in all CAPS and highlights the text in another color to make it stand out. My opinion is that he's not here to help archers, but only to make a profit off of them.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

deertracker said:


> You're alright Beastmaster, better character than most.
> 
> A business is in business to make money, but that is supposed to be kept out of the DIY section. For a business owner to come in here and try to crap on DIY'ers is just plain wrong. The majority of his posts on AT have something to do with his product. And he even puts his product name in all CAPS and highlights the text in another color to make it stand out. My opinion is that he's not here to help archers, but only to make a profit off of them.


I agree.

I have no problem with trying to make money off of us or anyone else. It's not personal, it's business. Just don't come in here, like you said deertracker, and crap on us.

??????????????????????


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> My thoughts here.
> 
> 1) A business is here to make money. If it wasn't there to make money, there's no point in being in business.
> 
> ...


No thanks.........he was begging for it.


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## Jathinkysaurus (Oct 8, 2006)

Can't believe the nerve of this guy. Especially considering that his product is promoted as an 'affordable alternative' to a higher quality shooting machine. I did not see the slogan about the bitterness of poor quality remaining after the sweetness of low price is gone, anywhere on his website. Perhaps he is experiencing the bitterness of seeing a more affordable alternative than his own, which will remain long after the sweetness of undercutting his original competitor has gone.....

He has got me thinking though. I'm thinking that instead of getting targets without holes and shooting holes in them myself, I should buy targets with holes already shot in them by a professional. The holes would probably be of a higher quality, and after all, I should consider what my time is worth. And what is the point of all that hunting for deer when good quality venison can be bought from a professional?

Keep the great DIY stuff coming fellas. I haven't posted on here for a while, but this section of AT is one of my favourite things on the web.


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## tiuser (Mar 22, 2009)

If there were no tinkers out there, then there would be no new or improved products to buy. To the OP, you were a tinker and a DIY guy yourself, or else you would not have made your product.


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## MysticFlight (Feb 8, 2006)

Personally I DIY because I enjoy it. Doesn't matter to me how long or how many tries it takes. I take a design I like and make my own revisions to make it what I want not what the manufacturer tells me what I want. 

DIY PEOPLE POWER!!!!!


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## loveshootn (Dec 25, 2003)

tiuser said:


> If there were no tinkers out there, then there would be no new or improved products to buy. To the OP, you were a tinker and a DIY guy yourself, or else you would not have made your product.


Well said, I do believe the quik shooter is a copy of the hooter shooter, so at one point he was a DIY'er too. So what he is sayinhg is that chevy shouldn't have made cars because ford already did, but some think chevy makes a better car now than ford. (just an example, I am a ford guy) The problem with the people who manufacture is, they have to make money, the same way it would be if the original poster was going to market his Ryobi shooting machine. He would put a markup in the product and then try to sell it, not saying it would be 549.99 but it would be more than 160.00. If there were not DIY'ers on here we definately wouldn't have one bow manufacturer on here, because he thought he could do it better. I'm sure that this fella is saying "should have kept my mouth shut" but I think it is good that the diy community is letting him know that HE WAS ONE OF US AT ONE TIME.


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## Sisco (Sep 23, 2010)

First, I agree that jim46ok is only posting to discourage DIYers in an attempt to boost his sales, and I agree it is a crap thing to do, but we are now beating a dead horse. He isn't going to reply because he knows he made a detrimental mistake, so let's just let this thread go unless he does it again.



loveshootn said:


> (just an example, I am a ford guy)


Ohh no, I have to hijack the thread before I let it die.. Ford wasn't the first mass produced vehicle in America.. Oldsmobile was, which became General Motors. GM/Chevy rocks!!! So neaner neaner.  j/k


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## Highball (Jul 17, 2007)

jim46ok said:


> Wow. So many smart and creative folks out there and here on the forums!! All kinds of slings, stabilizers, stands, cases, targets, etc..... no end to what we will think of to enjoy our sport and save some $$.
> 
> The Dilemma comes when one weighs the cost, function and appearance of said HOMEMADE device against a MANUFACTURED, tried and true and ENDORSED product.
> 
> ...


There are always risk/reward conditions in any endeavor. There will always be things that are cheaper to buy than build one-off because those products are mass produced. There are also safety issues: I wouldn't build my own bow. I don't have the knowledge, or access to the neccessary equipment to safely build one
Then there's the issue of "I can make that just as well and cheaper because I'm not trying to make a profit on it." That's where the issue of your product would lie with me. I have the skills, abilities, and access to equipment to make what you offer for much less than you charge. I have numerous advantages: My homemade product would be no more likely to fail than yours, I don't have to pay for any business licenses or liability insurance, I don't have to pay for any "endorsements", I don't have to pay for and maintain a website, but mostly...I don't need to make a profit after covering material costs AND overhead.

Some people are willing to destroy their own equipment in the name of DIY, my only hope is that most people realize their limits and build/use their equipment safely. That's my take on what you seemed to be trying to ask.

BTW, it does look awful when a MFG comes in the DIY section and says, "So, consider what your time is worth, and when all done, when you are disappointed with the results, possibly even DAMAGING your bow, scrap your project and buy the MANUFACTURED product afterall." It is extremely condescending and assumes DIY'ers build nothing but junk, then, not being happy with themselves, go buy the manufactured product. I would hope you'll use more discretion in your future posts.


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

Highball said:


> There are always risk/reward conditions in any endeavor. There will always be things that are cheaper to buy than build one-off because those products are mass produced. There are also safety issues: I wouldn't build my own bow. I don't have the knowledge, or access to the neccessary equipment to safely build one
> Then there's the issue of "I can make that just as well and cheaper because I'm not trying to make a profit on it." That's where the issue of your product would lie with me. I have the skills, abilities, and access to equipment to make what you offer for much less than you charge. I have numerous advantages: My homemade product would be no more likely to fail than yours, I don't have to pay for any business licenses or liability insurance, I don't have to pay for any "endorsements", I don't have to pay for and maintain a website, but mostly...I don't need to make a profit after covering material costs AND overhead.
> 
> Some people are willing to destroy their own equipment in the name of DIY, my only hope is that most people realize their limits and build/use their equipment safely. That's my take on what you seemed to be trying to ask.
> ...


I've been watching this thread for a little bit and this is a perfect response to the original post. It could not have been said any more concisely. 
Highball...thank you sir!
Mods...??? at least move the thread somewhere more appropriate.
Everyone else...let this thread die. 
Cheers!


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Just one more comment from me about DIY......don't know about the rest of you guys but my home page IS the AT DIY page. The first thing I do when I turn my puter on is to check the DIY forum. I am constantly amazed and deeply interested in all posts. Just an example to put the quality of some DIYers to rest, take a gander at some of Rancid Crabtree's work, Iceman, or any of the fine knifemaking members here. Everyone!!!! Keep up the great work and make sure you show pictures!!!!!


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## loveshootn (Dec 25, 2003)

Ohh no, I have to hijack the thread before I let it die.. Ford wasn't the first mass produced vehicle in America.. Oldsmobile was, which became General Motors. GM/Chevy rocks!!! So neaner neaner.  j/k[/QUOTE]

Did not know that but it was an example. I will give you an A+ on your history lesson, good job Sir.


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## turkeytom (May 8, 2003)

rdneckhillbilly said:


> I've been watching this thread for a little bit and this is a perfect response to the original post. It could not have been said any more concisely.
> Highball...thank you sir!
> Mods...??? at least move the thread somewhere more appropriate.
> Everyone else...let this thread die.
> Cheers!


Maybe in you opinion it is the perfect response.Others also have opinions,and to them they may think their opinion is the perfect one.So yours means no more than theirs does.The guy that opened this thread gave his opinion,as arrogant and ignorant as it was.It was his opinion and crappy pitch.Now he gets to hear others opinions and thoughts.What's wrong with that?
And for you information,this IS the appropriate place for this thread and it should stay right here.Why should everyone else let the thread die?just because you said so,and you put your 2 cents in?Others may not have read it yet. When they do,they may might want to respond.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

rdneckhillbilly said:


> Everyone else...let this thread die.
> Cheers!


What are we supposed to say to this?...........Yes, sir!:icon_salut:


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

turkeytom said:


> Now he gets to hear others opinions and thoughts.What's wrong with that?
> And for you information,this IS the appropriate place for this thread and it should stay right here.Why should everyone else let the thread die?just because you said so,and you put your 2 cents in?Others may not have read it yet. When they do,they may might want to respond.


My thoughts exactly!


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

turkeytom said:


> maybe in you opinion it is the perfect response.others also have opinions,and to them they may think their opinion is the perfect one.so yours means no more than theirs does.the guy that opened this thread gave his opinion,as arrogant and ignorant as it was.it was his opinion and crappy pitch.now he gets to hear others opinions and thoughts.what's wrong with that?
> And for you information,this is the appropriate place for this thread and it should stay right here.why should everyone else let the thread die?just because you said so,and you put your 2 cents in?others may not have read it yet. When they do,they may might want to respond.




ditto!!!


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## Sisco (Sep 23, 2010)

loveshootn said:


> Did not know that but it was an example. I will give you an A+ on your history lesson, good job Sir.


I know man, I was just busting on ya.


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## tjb50cal (Jul 5, 2010)

if you dont like DIY way of doing things, then dont come to this thread area. the rest of us prefer the satisfaction of Doing It ourselves, not just for the expense but also the accomplishment.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

tjb50cal said:


> if you dont like DIY way of doing things, then dont come to this thread area. the rest of us prefer the satisfaction of Doing It ourselves, not just for the expense but also the accomplishment.


DITTO again!

JT


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## h3lman (Jan 9, 2010)

It is a basic necessity that most men have to be able to hold what they've created at the end of the day. This provides one with a sense of achievement that can't be replicated by performing some important task whose output isn't something tangible. If I total up the number of hours that I spend making something and multiply it by the hourly rate that I get at my job I would be far better off financially working extra hours and buying off the shelf. However the negative in doing this is that I am in a stressful job with nothing tangible to show for it at the end of the day and I get more money for the misses or kids to blow, I'm away from them more...all in all the financial cost is insignificant when compared to the benefits of being at home and being able to hold something that I created no matter how poor it may look to an outside observer. 

In short DIY does your soul good and you can't put a price on that.


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

h3lman said:


> It is a basic necessity that most men have to be able to hold what they've created at the end of the day. This provides one with a sense of achievement that can't be replicated by performing some important task whose output isn't something tangible. If I total up the number of hours that I spend making something and multiply it by the hourly rate that I get at my job I would be far better off financially working extra hours and buying off the shelf. However the negative in doing this is that I am in a stressful job with nothing tangible to show for it at the end of the day and I get more money for the misses or kids to blow, I'm away from them more...all in all the financial cost is insignificant when compared to the benefits of being at home and being able to hold something that I created no matter how poor it may look to an outside observer.
> 
> In short DIY does your soul good and you can't put a price on that.





Here, here!!!! Big applause! How eloquently said.

JT


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## messe93 (May 26, 2010)

Jathinkysaurus said:


> He has got me thinking though. I'm thinking that instead of getting targets without holes and shooting holes in them myself, I should buy targets with holes already shot in them by a professional. The holes would probably be of a higher quality, and after all, I should consider what my time is worth. And what is the point of all that hunting for deer when good quality venison can be bought from a professional?


Now that is funny :usa2:


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## OCDARCHER (Nov 24, 2008)

As far as im concerned u just black listed your self


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## harm_hunter (Jan 5, 2010)

referring to the OT,i built a ghillie suit last year,when i started bowhunting.if i put a financial value on the time taken me to do this i could have bought 3 or 4 commercially available suits.but using an off-the-shelf item would not have been as rewarding.
i am a custom knifemaker,and many times i have built prototypes to better understand certain concepts.i do that with my DIY stuff as well.but the pride of completing and using something you have made far outweighs the money saved.for me anyway.


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## purplewg (Sep 13, 2010)

I for one just like to build stuff. If you have several giga bytes of storage I can send you pics of my many projects from farm implements to art. My latest build was a bow press. It cost me a grand total of $32 including the paint. I looked at a lot of "manufactured" presses but I had my own idea of what I wanted from my press plus I just like building stuff.


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## Imnrcher (Mar 11, 2009)

I am serious here and this is not a shot at anyone. I am so envious of all you DIYers. I visit the DIY forum often to look at all the ideas and projects you guys (gals too) put together and just wish I has the skill set and talent to pull it off. Alas, I don't have either. Nor do I have the tools or the time. No kidding, I am 5 years into a basement bathroom remodel and I may finish by next spring. Although I will be proud of my work in the bathroom, I can only do so much. I am afraid I will just have to come here and dream about doing fun projects you all are so good at and then go buy a commercially made product. 

As stated by many of you, you should be proud and deeply satisfied in what you do. Congrats! :set1_applaud:


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## soberarcher (Nov 29, 2010)

Diy or die!


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## Stormforce (Jul 28, 2009)

...just made my own peep sight, styled on the G5 Meta Peep, after my normal peep rubber tubing kept coming off all the time.

The reason I made it is, I couldn't find a peep hole size that suited my ageing eyesight, especially in low light conditions. 1/8" was way too small a hole, 3/16" was just a tad too big, and I couldn't see the edges on both to line up with the sight ring, so I made a peep out of 12mm round stock aluminium alloy rod. Cut it 5mm wide, then after centering where the hole should be, I drilled a small hole, removed it, looked through it, and kept going up a size until I found a hole I was happy with, which is 6/32", placed an appropriate sized bolt through the hole and to secure it tight with a nut to stop it from spinning and placed it in the chuck of a normal power drill, then clamped in a bench-vice and cut a groove on the outside edge with a file for the serving and cut, by hand, the 45 degree angled groove for the string to go in with an appropriate sized file. Sprayed it with matt black automotive paint from a spray can, then heated it and mist sprayed it from a distance for a textured finish. Soon after, I made my own "Speed Stud" to align the new peep and keep it from rotating, same deal as the peep, all hand made with basic tools. 

Had to weigh the "speed stud" during the process to make sure I was able to match the opposite end of the draw string with nocks, it ended up at 40 grains, which exactly equated to 5 red large sized nocks and a short length of black heat shrink tubing.

Installed the peep, and "speed stud", then followed the installation instructions from G5 for their speed stud, and served in place. No peep rotation, I have a peep I can see through and align with the outside of the sight ring in low light conditions, the arrows fly flatter, so I assume they are now quicker, and gained a 5 metre increase in my distance settings (my 25 metre mark is now my 20 metre mark)

I had to sleep on the idea for a few nights to work it out in my head how to do it, but in the end, it only took a few hours to make, cost me nothing 'cause I already had the tools and material from other projects, and I made it, the way I wanted it, and the way I needed it.










Mick.


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*Diy*



jim46ok said:


> Wow. So many smart and creative folks out there and here on the forums!! All kinds of slings, stabilizers, stands, cases, targets, etc..... no end to what we will think of to enjoy our sport and save some $$.
> 
> The Dilemma comes when one weighs the cost, function and appearance of said HOMEMADE device against a MANUFACTURED, tried and true and ENDORSED product.
> 
> ...


Hello,
i,m new here so i would like to make a reply to this post , i can agree with the poster to a degree , if you have big idea's but only have a hammer & dremel for tooling to work with then your results will vary greatly with the end results . on the other hand if you still have big idea's but limited to your tooling or knowledge base then you seek out what you need and either become a friend /barter or pay for some of the services needed to achieve the end results . to all of your DIY plan out your projects 
use this forum and members here there is always someone willing to either help or become a mentor for somebody . there is pride when you look or hold something in your hands that you made . 

TS2


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## Stormforce (Jul 28, 2009)

In reply to the thread, I make what I can't buy, usually replicated from manufactured items I see on eBay, archery equipment websites and from reading archery and bowhunting magazines. I live out in the bush in Australia, so when seeing archery based items I think may improve my skills or make things easier. First, I usually think about it for a while, then search it out, on the web, to study and do more research in my mind, to see if it will do the job I hope it will, then discover the cost of getting the item delivered from overseas, because I can't get it in Australia, which is usually somewhere around double the actual cost of the item based on a forever fluctuating currency rate. Then, if I can justify the cost and have the finances to spare, I can wait 6 to 8 weeks for the item to arrive, if at all, and all of this based on an item I have never seen, let alone held or personally inspected before, to judge for myself whether it will do the job the advertising claims it will. So I usually buy on faith, based on previous customer reviews and recommendations. 

So many times, an item I've purchased does not live up to expectations, usually it is somehow flawed during the manufacturing process or not enough R&D has been done on the item to actually establish for a fact that it will do what it was designed for and then be the ultimate item an archer can not do without. It is then sold cheaply, on eBay as over or liquidation stock, but this is never disclosed or made aware of when I paid for it, and because of the distance and time it has travelled and the cost to get it here, I find the particular item is useless for my needs. This can be very frustrating. 

So, I have the preliminary skills, some tools and lots of patience to copy what I need, evaluate it's effectiveness, then either continue using it, or scrap it and chalk it up to experience or try again later if situations change. DIY is a neccesity for me, but as we all have come to the conclusion that when walking into or coming across an online store, it's like a kid in a lolly shop, we want everything we see, but rarely can afford it, so we evaluate between what we really need and what we want and discard the "wants" until finances permit. But we've discovered DIY as a possible solution to our "wants". 

DIY increases our skill level and makes us think outside the "square", things we learnt at school and we thought we'd never have a need of, can now be utilised, and that in which we don't know, we ask those that do know, via wonderful forums like this, and in the process, we make new friends, because we all have a common interest.

As said before, it's not usually about money, it's about pride in your own workmanship, sometimes it's a deviation from the drudgery of our normal lives, to bolster our self-confidence and self-esteem, especially when it seems that the world is falling apart around us, we can disappear into our own little world, that only we are in charge of, no one else but us can tell us we're doing it wrong, and if it is wrong, we can learn from it and ride the wonderful "learning curve", which makes us a better person and the next time we do it, heaven forbid, we might even improve on something we or someone else has already made!!! 

There is always a need to re-invent the wheel, sometimes it's just to make it a nicer looking wheel. DIY goes "hand in hand" with innovation, and without innovation, we will not improve and stride forward as we were intended, as a species, to do.

I have nothing against manufacturers, but sometimes the drive for profit and monetary gain sometimes outstrips the original desire to provide a service to our fellow man (or woman).

...just my 0.2 cents worth.


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## Wicked1Archery (Oct 2, 2010)

*Tinker with this...*

:high5: If it weren't for tinkering some of the world's best inventions wouldn't exist. I just saw some tinkering on TV by college students that saves babies lives by creating the first portable soft incubator wrap for $200-, what if these students had said to them selves, "But its already been done?" If someone isn't constantly tinkering around in their garage or shop some of the best archery products that are yet to come will never have been invented. Pick any product on the market today and I'll show you a tinkerer behind it.


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## Stormforce (Jul 28, 2009)

...also too, I am often ridiculed for making lots of "junk", but I am also one of the first people, my friends will go to when they need something improved, adapted or re-furbished. 

...and if I can't do it, I usually know someone that can. I'm friends with a few local engineering shops and fitter / machinists. In Australia, mates work on a barter system, which means we pay for services from friends in beer, then we are usually invited to help consume it !!!

You've gotta love this country and it's people !!!


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## bhuntin (Jun 19, 2009)

Can't we all just get along?


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## timberjak (Jan 22, 2010)

Hey OP ya catchin all this??? Good Job,what is your next move. Apologies go a long ways. But you are not the type or you would not of posted up in the first place. Hope your gettin an education on marketing how to,or how not to. lol You were a tinker your self now a big shot I guess. The rest of us lowlies will have to grovel at your abilities. Wow this has been stimulating and educational. Way to go Might have to check out your site and leave some praise for ya there since yer so good.


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## AndyVandy (May 9, 2009)

Wow an anti-DIY on the DIY section? Really? OK go back and look at how many people are viewing this section of AT. It is a super small fraction of the people on here. Now look at the classifieds and MFG emporium. At most times of the day they are the lions share of all activity. Go sell your product. I'm sorry if that hacks you off but this is a place to celebrate creativity not bash it.


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## AndyVandy (May 9, 2009)

OCDARCHER said:


> As far as im concerned u just black listed your self


Succinct and accurate.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

dw'struth said:


> Wow, I really don't know how to take this thread either. But I do know if I ever get a shooting machine this has helped me to know which one to get............or not to get.


I feel the same way......blacklist!:evil5:


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## f4irocket (Oct 20, 2010)

It really amazes me that this guy had the nerve to post this. If you look through some of the post on the DIY section some of the things we have built look to be higher quality than what he is even selling. For him to demoralize people who take pride in there on work just to promote his own product is poor business management let alone distasteful. A lot of the DIYers on here have the capabilities and the equipment to build what he is selling for a fraction of the price and probably improve it's design. When I first read through this thread I was expecting to get to the end and to see an explanation or an apology from this guy but for him not to even respond has really ticked me off. I hope to see him finally address this thread with an apology.


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## Mattlock (Nov 4, 2010)

I think that the OP may need to open his eyes a little when it comes to his marketing and his audience. While I personally don't DIY for everything there are times when the manufacturers cannot reasonably make a product of high quality or adjustability because of production costs and i am forced to make my own. some of the most useful jigs and tools i use for work are made by "ME"!!! I am always just a little more proud of these items and their quality than the inferior products that are manufactured. I think that maybe someone needs to re-evaluate where they came from and the steps they took to get where they are currently without leaving backhanded compliments that i would expect from someone who was a "tinkerer" himself.


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## Hanover Hydro (Jan 24, 2010)

To the OP,
I used to get mad about the DIY dipping thread too but you just have to get over it and move on. I am the owner of a hydrographic printing shop so I know how you feel. I go out and buy $50k worth of equipment so I can put camo on a bow or gun (professionally and for a living) and in a matter of weeks later, the company I purchased my tank from, and was trained by, came out with a $100 + kit that you can use in your bath tub. Was I going to get the business from these customers? No, probably not, but what it does is build awareness about your product, process, etc. As it is now, not many people know the details about the service that I provide or the product you manufacture. Look at the DIY guys as advertisers to your market. By seeing more of these shooting machines out there in the general public alone will increase your sales. There are always the guys that will buy manufactured equipment and there will always be the guys that tinker. Be thankful that the DIY guys in this thread make up a very small percentage of that market. On AT Be careful how you come across. The more people around here that respect you, the more sales you will see down the road. Archery Talk is a great tool but it is live or die by the sword. 
Good luck and Merry Christmas!
Jeff


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## BowhunterJT (Jun 4, 2009)

Nicely said! 

JT









Stormforce said:


> In reply to the thread, I make what I can't buy, usually replicated from manufactured items I see on eBay, archery equipment websites and from reading archery and bowhunting magazines. I live out in the bush in Australia, so when seeing archery based items I think may improve my skills or make things easier. First, I usually think about it for a while, then search it out, on the web, to study and do more research in my mind, to see if it will do the job I hope it will, then discover the cost of getting the item delivered from overseas, because I can't get it in Australia, which is usually somewhere around double the actual cost of the item based on a forever fluctuating currency rate. Then, if I can justify the cost and have the finances to spare, I can wait 6 to 8 weeks for the item to arrive, if at all, and all of this based on an item I have never seen, let alone held or personally inspected before, to judge for myself whether it will do the job the advertising claims it will. So I usually buy on faith, based on previous customer reviews and recommendations.
> 
> So many times, an item I've purchased does not live up to expectations, usually it is somehow flawed during the manufacturing process or not enough R&D has been done on the item to actually establish for a fact that it will do what it was designed for and then be the ultimate item an archer can not do without. It is then sold cheaply, on eBay as over or liquidation stock, but this is never disclosed or made aware of when I paid for it, and because of the distance and time it has travelled and the cost to get it here, I find the particular item is useless for my needs. This can be very frustrating.
> 
> ...


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## Krypt Keeper (Oct 10, 2007)

a lot has been said in this thread but also wanted to point out that a lot of things mass produced use cheap crappy parts simply because it puts more money in their pockets. 

I can build stuff myself and use higher quality parts. 

I have also built crafts for my wife and other family members for a 1/4 or less of what stores sell them for and those gifts mean a whole lot more than some store bought give. 

Other than that I enjoy building stuff and having my 6 yr old son asking me if I can teach him how to build stuff and do varies things makes sure its pasted on to the next generation.


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