# On Crossbow legalization..



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

awesome comments

I kept saying

on one side we have people who want choice-a choice that no one can demonstrate causes any harm

on the other side we have people who say their feelings and a need to exclude count more than the others to participate

the burden on the latter to establish their merit is huge and insurmountable


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

On one side we have those who cannot be bothered to learn to shoot a real bow but still covet a bowhunter's season and those who would switch to a crossbow to gain tactical advantage over the deer and existing hunters.

On the other, we have bowhunters, led by P&Y and all the great bowhunting organizations, trying to protect the honor, integrity, and tradition of hunting with a bow and arrow.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> On one side we have those who cannot be bothered to learn to shoot a real bow but still covet a bowhunter's season and those who would switch to a crossbow to gain tactical advantage over the deer and existing hunters.
> 
> On the other, we have bowhunters, led by P&Y and all the great bowhunting organizations, trying to protect the honor, integrity, and tradition of hunting with a bow and arrow.



a tactical advantage-brings back images of Rambo 
store bought longbows-people who couldn't be bothered to make their own gear
compounds-people who couldn't be bothered to train to hold the weight
releases-people who couldn't be bothered to learn how to develop a proper loose

worship at your cult the way you want but we need separation of religion from game department decisions because that is all we have here-the imposition of a warped faith on those of us who don't believe in the bs

source-you have to stop worrying about other people-its a recreational activity and your desire to keep others out is bordering on obsessive compulsive
you have the "We got ours-screw the rest" attitude

This is why crossbows will ultimately win. the "tradition of bowhunting" never was the legal basis for archery seasons and ceased to exist even as a colorable argument when compounds dominated the season

since most of the public and the vast majority of archery season hunters don't worship that tradition, not only does it not have a legal basis for apartheid, it doesn't have and relevance to most bowhunters


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> This is why crossbows will ultimately win. the "tradition of bowhunting" never was the legal basis for archery seasons and ceased to exist even as a colorable argument when compounds dominated the season


The traditions, integrity, and heritage of bowhunting is very important to a great many people, regardless if it was the legal basis for archery seasons. A half century of bowseasons have developed the tradition and heritage of bowhunting, and it is most bowhunters' desire to protect and preserve bowhunting. Compounds have become part of that history - crossbows have not.

The opposition to crossbows is predominantly based upon bowhunters' love of bowhunting and not the greed, selfishness, or eltism that you bash bowhunters about.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> The traditions, integrity, and heritage of bowhunting is very important to a great many people, regardless if it was the legal basis for archery seasons. A half century of bowseasons have developed the tradition and heritage of bowhunting, and it is most bowhunters' desire to protect and preserve bowhunting. Compounds have become part of that history - crossbows have not.
> 
> The opposition to crossbows is predominantly based upon bowhunters' love of bowhunting and not the greed, selfishness, or eltism that you bash bowhunters about.



BS-its based on selfishness and greed and elitism. Look at your posts source where you call xbow archers cheaters and lazy and "polluting" bowhunting 

crossbows will become part of that history and in Ohio are a part of that as they are in several other areas. In europe, crossbows were the bowhunting weapon

BTW keeping traditions while excluding others was the main argument of the Klan too


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Keep it clean guys.. I hate to see another one of my informative threads get locked..

Thanks..


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Informative?

LOL.....what a joke.

It is crossbow propaganda, and its intent is to stir the pot. You guys are funny - you snivel and whine about opposing posts, but look who starts all the controversial threads.... 

There is NOTHING informative about it. It is just another opinion, worth no more or no less than the next guy's.


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## awshucks (Mar 4, 2006)

Source: While the majority of your posts are nothing more than repititious and mildly irritating, you have the ability to constantly out do yourself in lowering the bar. Your recent post on another now locked thread regarding xbowers under wear is a prime example. I for one was offended by that and I'm sure I'm not alone. In all seriousness, is there no way you can understand that there are numerous hunters out there that have ethics and the same high standards that you claim to possess that just plain like using another form of archery equipment to hunt with?


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

thesource said:


> Informative?
> 
> LOL.....what a joke.
> 
> ...



I would sure put CJ's opinion *WA-A-A-A-A-Y-Y-Y-Y* above yours..

His words strike home don't they?


.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

awshucks said:


> Source: While the majority of your posts are nothing more than repititious and mildly irritating, you have the ability to constantly out do yourself in lowering the bar. Your recent post on another now locked thread regarding xbowers under wear is a prime example. I for one was offended by that and I'm sure I'm not alone. In all seriousness, is there no way you can understand that there are numerous hunters out there that have ethics and the same high standards that you claim to possess that just plain like using another form of archery equipment to hunt with?


I understand that there are crossbow hunters out there who are decent folks of fine character. On these message boards, they are few and far between. I have been villified from the start simply because I oppose crossbows in bowseason. I have grown increasingly antagonistic, its true... but crossbowers have been horrifically obnoxious all along.

If you are one of those who is (and I will admit that you are one of very few who has yet to attack me personally), then I apologize for offending you. I would be more convinced that you are a person of high character if you took the time to chastise your side for their offensiveness as often as you do the other side.

I have no problem with you or anyone hunting with a crossbow. I have a big problem with you invading bowseason to do it.

If crossbowers were lobbying for their own season, I would assist them with their efforts. But they don't. They insist on cramming themselves into bowseasons and claiming themselves as bowhunters.

WRONG. If you want to be a crossbower - be one, and be proud of it. If you want to be a bowhunter - get a bow, become a bowhunter, and be proud of it.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> I would sure put CJ's opinion *WA-A-A-A-A-Y-Y-Y-Y* above yours..
> His words strike home don't they?


Not really. Sounds like recycled JimC trash - flowered up a bit with the rough edges ground away. More of the same - all you paid crossbow guys have the same talking points anyway. 

By the way - wanna guess how concerned I am of where you rank my opinion? Wanna guess how much weight I give to your opinions?


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## spec (Dec 13, 2005)

Thanks willie for finally admitting something- that what YOU posted is merely anothers opinion. You have every right to believe as you wish, but believing the opinion of one held in high regard(even if only to you) it is still an OPINION- not to be confused with fact. Thanks for not confusing the two. Print all the opinions you wish, from whomever you wish- but they still are only one person's OPINION.


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## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

I have no problem with crossbows in a bowseason or archery season because they are bows,

I really don't understand why a nonbowhunter and archer even cares.

I tend to think thesource's posts assist the crossbow archers in getting into archery season.

we really should thank the source for his contributions.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

spec said:


> Thanks willie for finally admitting something- that what YOU posted is merely anothers opinion. You have every right to believe as you wish, but believing the opinion of one held in high regard(even if only to you) it is still an OPINION- not to be confused with fact. Thanks for not confusing the two. Print all the opinions you wish, from whomever you wish- but they still are only one person's OPINION.


I think if you would ask 100 hunters who's opinion they would believe more - yours, the source or CJ Winand I do believe that you and thesource would be neck and neck for dead last WA-A-A-A-A-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y BEHIND CJ Winand.

CJ is a universally well respected whitetail deer biologist, hunter, conservationist and bowhunter.

*From FHFH….*

C.J. Winand is a wildlife biologist and regularly pens the "Huntin' Whitetails" column for Bowhunter magazine. In addition to his writings, CJ is highly sought after as a seminar speaker on deer management and biology and answers white-tail deer questions on www.Bowsite.org. As CJ calls a "Mission from God", he currently is the National Promotions Director for FHFH.

http://www.bowsite.com/CJWinand/
http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/features/armchair_biologist/immunocontraception/PILL1.htm

The Fall By C.J. Winand at http://www.bowhunter.com/Newsstand/WT2004/

http://www.indianadeerandturkeyexpo.com/show_features/seminars.htm

CJ is a wildlife biologist and an outdoor writer for Bowhunter Magazine and North American Hunter. Internet users can find CJ on two of the largest hunting web sites: www.hunting.net and www.bowsite.com. CJ is also on the hunting advisory staffs of Scent-Lok and API Treestands. He has served on the Educational Review Committee for the National Rifle Association’s Whitetail Deer Hunter Clinic Program and is a featured seminar speaker on the NRA’s Great American Hunters Tour. In addition, he has worked on a Masters of Science degree in Wildlife Management at West Virginia University under Dr. David Samuel (Conservation Editor for Bowhunter magazine). CJ also manages and guides on several quality deer management programs around the country. Additionally, CJ serves as the National Promotional Director for Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry (FHFH), Conservation Committee member for the Pope and Young Club (P&Y) and on the Board of Directors of the National Bowhunter Education Foundation (NBEF).

All the scientific information presented during his talks is based on actual field research conducted by himself or other prominent wildlife biologists. CJ translates this biological information so everyone can understand and utilize the latest scientific results. Hunters that use these findings can readily adapt or modify their hunting techniques to harvest quality bucks. CJ’s seminars are data packed and will elevate even an experienced hunter’s savvy. Come prepared to take notes on what some people call a whole college course in “Advanced Deer Hunting 101

*Yeah, we really believe you guys more than CJ..*


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> CJ is a universally well respected whitetail deer biologist, hunter, conservationist and bowhunter.


Well ..... he WAS.

Willie - its still just one man's opinion. No one really cares. 

Here's an opinion from a well repected expert. Let's see how you respond to this one.....
_Mr. Norb Mullaney, a professional engineer, is recognized as the leading authority on the physics of bows and endows. He states that "The hand held bow has one characteristic that distinguishes it from a crossbow or any type of firearm. The internal ballistics are a function of the shooter, his or her physical geometry and capabilities, shooting form, consistency and reaction to stress and trauma. In the crossbow and firearms, the internal ballistics are fixed. The action of the shooter in triggering a release of energy does nothing more than initiate a process that is consistent and repetitive. The hand held bow is different. Every action of the shooter contributes something either positive or negative to the interior ballistic process. As the interior ballistics vary, so do the exterior ballistics. Shooting the hand held bow and arrow is much more complicated than aiming a fixed system of ballistics and touching off the energy discharge. The total energy to draw, hold and release the bow must come directly and unassisted from the shooter's muscle power."_


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

what it comes down to is a question of the primacy of competing desires

One group wants to engage in a wholesome recreational activity with a weapon that -in terms of all aspects that legitimately matter to an objective decisionmaker-is no different than weapons currently used in all 50 states.

On the other side we have people who can demonstrate no objective harm yet claim their feelings are upset by others joining what is a public season to enjoy what is a publicly owned entity. They pretend to be guardians of a tradition-a tradition that has no place in the legislative decisionmaking process and which- if valuable -should be maintained by the cultists-not imposed on others whose reason for wanting to hunt may have nothing to do with this pseudo religion

given those two choices, the balance is not even close. prohibiting honest citizens from enjoying a public resource merely to salve the egos or cater to the mental illnesses of others has no legitimacy whatsoever and yes, it is a mental illness that motivates Poop and Dung etc

In reality, society as a whole is not better or worse if crossbows become the dominant form of hunting archer tackle just as society was not harmed when traditional equipment was almost wiped out by compounds 30 years ago.

so the bottom line is should be be able to enjoy bowhunting or should they be sacrificed for the emotional well being of people like source and the Poop and Dung snobs?

the answer is clearly no and it would be difficult-if this matter ever became the subject of a lawsuit-for someone to advance a legal argument persuasive to an object trier of fact that supports the anti xbow nonsense we see pushed by the odious NABC etc


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Well ..... he WAS.
> 
> Willie - its still just one man's opinion. No one really cares.
> 
> ...



Mullaney -who was paid by anti crossbow sources to try to create a report that at least wasn't patently false (like the lie filled Marlow Manure)-wasn't able to discuss the one thing that legitimately matters to a law making body-what is the bottom line difference

it is none


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> In reality, society as a whole is not better or worse if crossbows become the dominant form of hunting archer tackle just as society was not harmed when traditional equipment was almost wiped out by compounds 30 years ago.


Agreed - society is unaffected.

But bowhunting will be affected, ruined, in fact, if crossbows were to dominate.... and THAT is exactly why crossbows are the biggest threat to the future of bowhunting.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> so the bottom line is should be be able to enjoy bowhunting or should they be sacrificed for the emotional well being of people like source and the Poop and Dung snobs?


Everyone IS able to enjoy bowhunting....Grab a BOW and let's go get 'em!


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## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

Thesource makes alot of sense. You guys should listen to him.


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## Silver Pine (Dec 9, 2005)

*How does banning crossbows increase the numers of hunters?*

_"But bowhunting will be affected, ruined, in fact, if crossbows were to dominate.... and THAT is exactly why crossbows are the biggest threat to the future of bowhunting."_

How can you make such a statement with a straight face. You can't possibably believe that to be true. Are you really willing to trade "No crossbows during YOUR bowhunting season" for "MORE HUNTERS"? Are you willing to jepardize huntings future so that YOU can have a little more elbow room in the woods?

WE NEED MORE HUNTERS. 

WE NEED MORE HUNTERS WHO VOTE.

WE NEED MORE PUBLIC LAND.

WE NEED MORE CONSERVATION PERSONAL.

WE NEED TO KEEP UP OUR UNITED LEGAL DEFENSE AGAINST THE antis.

If you could channel your energy towards INCREASING our numbers, we would all have more public land and you wouldn't feel so crowded.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Silver Pine said:


> How can you make such a statement with a straight face. You can't possibably believe that to be true. Are you really willing to trade "No crossbows during YOUR bowhunting season" for "MORE HUNTERS"? Are you willing to jepardize huntings future so that YOU can have a little more elbow room in the woods?
> 
> WE NEED MORE HUNTERS.
> 
> ...



Make you a deal. You come back here with some *data *that shows legalizing crossbows leads to MORE HUNTERS and we can talk.

I'll wait .......................


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## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

Source

you are intelligent and well versed on this issue. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I am learning alot how things work here when we can all get along and when we can't 

Who wants gum?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Agreed - society is unaffected.
> 
> But bowhunting will be affected, ruined, in fact, if crossbows were to dominate.... and THAT is exactly why crossbows are the biggest threat to the future of bowhunting.



1) no more than when compounds joined the season-so tell me-what societal good comes about depriving thousands of recreational activity just to keep something "pure" when it hasn't been pure for 30 years?

2) as I said why should society care about your phobias of purity when it deprives other citizens and your exclusions don't help society


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Everyone IS able to enjoy bowhunting....Grab a BOW and let's go get 'em!



crossbows are bows-just as compounds are bows
you have yet to come close to making a legally sufficient argument on which to base the establishment of laws. keep trying


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Wrong, Jim.

WHY should we allow fundamentally different weapons into bowseason just because YOU want an easier method to kill deer?

Perhaps you are one of those guys who chokes at the moment of truth...a crossbow sure would be an advantage ....is that why you are such a big advocate?! lol.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Make you a deal. You come back here with some *data *that shows legalizing crossbows leads to MORE HUNTERS and we can talk.
> 
> I'll wait .......................


Here's source's hangups-he doesn't want those evil gun hunters infringing on "his" season. the fact is people who don't have any vested interest in bow season will not fight as hard for it as people who do. ideally, all hunters would fight for a hunting season or type of hunting that they don't personally enjoy but that is sadly not often the truth. source believes that the only people who join bow season due to a crossbow are already gun hunters. This a moronic lie because there are many municipalities that are opening up bowhunting-you can't use a gun in many of them-and landowners often choose crossbows to hunt on their own suburban property. 

source has the false opinion that gun hunters are lazy and cheaters and allowing them to use crossbows is unfair to purists like source

Pine said it all-it brings more people into archery season and that is good


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> crossbows are bows-just as compounds are bows


Wrong again.

Compounds require archery skills to shoot - draw, hold, anchor, aim, release, follow through.

Crossbows - NO archery skills. GUN skills - point, shoot.

Cut and dry, dude.......If you don't need bow skills, then it is not a bow. Simple.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> Here's source's hangups-he doesn't want those evil gun hunters infringing on "his" season. the fact is people who don't have any vested interest in bow season will not fight as hard for it as people who do. ideally, all hunters would fight for a hunting season or type of hunting that they don't personally enjoy but that is sadly not often the truth. source believes that the only people who join bow season due to a crossbow are already gun hunters. This a moronic lie because there are many municipalities that are opening up bowhunting-you can't use a gun in many of them-and landowners often choose crossbows to hunt on their own suburban property.
> 
> source has the false opinion that gun hunters are lazy and cheaters and allowing them to use crossbows is unfair to purists like source
> 
> Pine said it all-it brings more people into archery season and that is good


That's actually NOT what he said. He said it would bring more HUNTERS - as in NEW hunters. Not recycle the existing hunters into a season where they could already be if they had the fortitude to grab a bow and hunt but instead are whining and complaining until they get a gunlike option like the crossbow so they can take advantage of an early bowseason without being bothered to do anything like lkearning to shoot a bow.......phew.

New hunters. I am still waiting for data...............


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Wrong, Jim.
> 
> WHY should we allow fundamentally different weapons into bowseason just because YOU want an easier method to kill deer?
> 
> Perhaps you are one of those guys who chokes at the moment of truth...a crossbow sure would be an advantage ....is that why you are such a big advocate?! lol.



1) they are not fundamentally different in effect, range and bottom line impact on the herd

the closest analogy I can think of is a bait casting reel compared to spincast gear. I remember it took me a fair amount of time to learn how to use a bait rig without getting zapped with a backlash. Now my 8 year old sonwhose prior fishing experience was limited to cane polls was able to master that zebco spin cast rig in a few minutes.

you could keep alot of people out of fishing by saying that couldn't use spinning or spincast rigs on the grounds that they should be forced to learn how to "thumb" a bait rig but the bottom line is that a SC rig is no more "deadly" than abait rig

2) once again what do you care-I had a rather good record in shootoffs when I was a world class skeet shooter and the only time I ever missed a deer with any type of bow was a deflection off a twig that was on a fallen tree -a tree that fell during a storm over night that I couldn't see in the early morning light

3) i guess you want someone to "choke" and wound the deer don't you

since you have conceded xbows don't affect society-tell me why society should deprive some of its productive members from hunting just to salve your mental issues source?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Wrong again.
> 
> Compounds require archery skills to shoot - draw, hold, anchor, aim, release, follow through.
> 
> ...



given I am a professional archery coach whose credentials in that area are easily verified and you have no such standing I deny your cliam. drawing , holding, aiming are not 'archery' skills that really need to be developed with compound. Neither is pulling the trigger and you need a follow through with a crossbow.

But lets for the sake of taking your position apart a bit more-assume you are right

tell me why it matters to a lawmaker or society


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

The first 3/4 of your post is the normal outgassing of hot air that we are all accustomed to by now. I could respond point by point.... flyfishing only, if its too dark to see the fallen tree then why the hell are you shooting?, and no, I want all hunters to limit themselves to the ranges that they are proficient at ..... but what's the point? You will just respond with more hot air.



Jim C said:


> since you have conceded xbows don't affect society-tell me why society should deprive some of its productive members from hunting just to salve your mental issues source?


That's the problem with your story, Jim. NOONE is being deprived. EVERYONE can bowhunt under the existing rules. Only those who are too UNMOTIVATED (lazy) to learn to use a bow are missing out, and it is there OWN fault. Why should society kowtow to those too lazy to meet the requirements of the season they wish to join?

Why?


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> given I am a professional archery coach whose credentials in that area are easily verified and you have no such standing I deny your cliam. drawing , holding, aiming are not 'archery' skills that really need to be developed with compound. Neither is pulling the trigger and you need a follow through with a crossbow.


You may be a great coach but you are a crappy bowhunter if you think that drawing, holding, and aiming are not archery skills that need to be developed with a compound. (actually, how could you shoot if you do not draw, hold and aim? )

Here that flushing sound? All that credibility you love to talk about just went bye-bye. You sound like a doofus right now.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> The first 3/4 of your post is the normal outgassing of hot air that we are all accustomed to by now. I could respond point by point.... flyfishing only, if its too dark to see the fallen tree then why the hell are you shooting?, and no, I want all hunters to limit themselves to the ranges that they are proficient at ..... but what's the point? You will just respond with more hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


back to your smarmy arrogance and false airs of superiority

I Can prove flyfishing is a less effective means of catching fish-you cannot prove that a compound bow is less effective in harvesting deer-even F Lee Wulf is going to be at a disadvantage with a fly rod vs a kid with a worm and a spin rig while an expert compound archer has advantages over an expert crossbow hunter.

You still haven't told me why society is helped by forcing people to learn how to shoot a compound or not hunt because they don't want to spend extra time with a compound bow-what about those landowners-now they can hunt-they might not care about archery

other than massaging your ego tell me why they shouldn't be able to hunt in their archery only suburbs on their own property

you have to explain why society is better off forcing people to shoot a bow just to deal with your mental issues


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> You may be a great coach but you are a crappy bowhunter if you think that drawing, holding, and aiming are not archery skills that need to be developed with a compound. (actually, how could you shoot if you do not draw, hold and aim? )
> 
> Here that flushing sound? All that credibility you love to talk about just went bye-bye. You sound like a doofus right now.



You know nothing about archery. I ask again-name one person on this forum who can vouch for you. you don't need any proper form with a compound to consistently hit deer. its basically-at hunting distances-a point and shoot weapon which is why so many people buy them and kill deer without much practice.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> other than massaging your ego tell me why they shouldn't be able to hunt in their archery only suburbs on their own property


Simple. They do not own the deer. You do not get to make your own rules simply because you own more land thn the next guy. They already *can *hunt in archery season in all 50 states with 1 simple option - a bow.


If they want deer removed from there property, they have 2 choices.

1) Learn to bowhunt.

2) Call somebody who already knows how.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> You know nothing about archery. I ask again-name one person on this forum who can vouch for you. you don't need any proper form with a compound to consistently hit deer. its basically-at hunting distances-a point and shoot weapon which is why so many people buy them and kill deer without much practice.



Blah blah blah. More compound bashing.

If they are SO easy, any and all arguements you have for crossbows are irrelevant. If they so easy, why do we see so many "missed again" threads? If they are so easy, what is keeping all of these would be crossbowers from getting up off their lazy rears and hunting?

Everyone here knows that anyone is capable of becoming proficient with a compound. Everyone here also knows that doesn't mean they will have 40 or 50 yard range, this year, next year, or possibly ever, because while its not tough, its not easy.

Everyone here knows that shooting a crossbow well is like falling off a log....easy.


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## spec (Dec 13, 2005)

Is that why "they" tout the crossbow expansion as a benefit for beginners, young hunters and women?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Simple. They do not own the deer. You do not get to make your own rules simply because you own more land thn the next guy. They already *can *hunt in archery season in all 50 states with 1 simple option - a bow.
> 
> 
> If they want deer removed from there property, they have 2 choices.
> ...


you are showing ignorance again-bowhunting is not the same as learning to pull the trigger on a compound instead of a crossbow-all the other skills are the same

you are unable to purvey a rational argument why society has an interest in the matter. It appears the only people who care are you and those who have the same mental issues. society doesn't care if you are skilled with a compound bow, a trad bow or a crossbow. That is not a legislative issue and should play no role in the deer season.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> The first 3/4 of your post is the normal outgassing of hot air that we are all accustomed to by now. I could respond point by point.... flyfishing only, if its too dark to see the fallen tree then why the hell are you shooting?, and no, I want all hunters to limit themselves to the ranges that they are proficient at ..... but what's the point? You will just respond with more hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you have to make a more rational argument. we could say everyone has to wear a tutu to hunt deer. No one would be deprived by such a law but the first question would be-what good is accomplished by that. 

Your laziness argument merely proves you have mental issues dealing with your self esteem problems/ tell me why society cares given that we have no way of proving compound archers actually practice


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Blah blah blah. More compound bashing.
> 
> If they are SO easy, any and all arguements you have for crossbows are irrelevant. If they so easy, why do we see so many "missed again" threads? If they are so easy, what is keeping all of these would be crossbowers from getting up off their lazy rears and hunting?
> 
> ...



once again-so what-lets assume your stupid argument has merit-anyone can be capable of being proficient with a legal weight compound. Most people who use compounds could be proficient if they trained 4-5 times a week for a year-with a recurve

once gain, so what-where is the interest in society to make people choose a more "difficult bow"? gratifying your ego doesn't count

tell me why it helps society 

you have already admitted that society isn't harmed and there is no deleterious affect on the herd by legalizing crossbows

now tell me what good is realized by forcing people to use a slightly harder to utilize bow


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> you have to make a more rational argument. we could say everyone has to wear a tutu to hunt deer. No one would be deprived by such a law but the first question would be-what good is accomplished by that.
> 
> Your laziness argument merely proves you have mental issues dealing with your self esteem problems/ tell me why society cares given that we have no way of proving compound archers actually practice


You constantly pyschoanalyze me and my motives, but the stuff you say is whacked.
:crazy: 

Why would compounders need to practice at all - according to you its simple. You are bipolar, dude.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> You constantly pyschoanalyze me and my motives, but the stuff you say is whacked.
> :crazy:
> 
> Why would compounders need to practice at all - according to you its simple. You are bipolar, dude.


even the people who run this forum think you have mental problems source

can you answer the question of how society is helped by adopting your "I AM MORE WORTHY" nonsense.

I don't need to practice with a compound-after shooting a recurve a few hundred thousand times its easy  to get hunting accuracy out of a compound.

I still await your argument as to why making people use a slightly more difficult to use bow (for that sake alone) is actually better for society as a whole and will strengthen conservation of natural resources. Guess what-that is the only legitimate grounds for game laws and your apartheid desires fail that

your purist blather is a joke given compounds and there is absolutely no single argument that a society that hunts with only trad bows is somehow better than one that only uses xbows. both are recreational tools with NO INTRINSIC societal value superior to the other

you have to explain why putting ARTIFICIAL barriers up to prevent fellow citizens' CHOICE is good since you have already CONCEDED there is no objective argument based on societal harm that can justify crossbow exclusion


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## awshucks (Mar 4, 2006)

Source: I'm not a skilled computer user or debater. I'm relatively the new kid w/ a xbow on the block so to speak and do not feel it's my place to chastise anyone on either side. I have a few questions for you. Where would you have the xbow crowd put their own season? Bearing in mind the effective ethical ranges are nearly identical. I for one do not want to have to hunt w/ xbow during gun seasons, as the patterns are changed, the big boys are heading nocturnal ect. Why should I be penalized because of which platform I choose to launch basically the same arrow as your side of the debate?? Do you have any idea of how many xbow hunters there are? I've been told that roughly 7% of archery hunters use an xbow, and I have also been informed by two xbow mfg reps that the total number of xbow hunters in North America is between 450,000 and 500,000, w/ 100,000 alone in Ohio. This would come out to about 7 1/2 million archery hunters total. While I freely admit these are estimates and hence fall under your opinion category, it is a huge number to ever paint broadly w/ any kind of brush.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

awshucks said:


> Source: I'm not a skilled computer user or debater. I'm relatively the new kid w/ a xbow on the block so to speak and do not feel it's my place to chastise anyone on either side. I have a few questions for you. Where would you have the xbow crowd put their own season? Bearing in mind the effective ethical ranges are nearly identical. I for one do not want to have to hunt w/ xbow during gun seasons, as the patterns are changed, the big boys are heading nocturnal ect. Why should I be penalized because of which platform I choose to launch basically the same arrow as your side of the debate?? Do you have any idea of how many xbow hunters there are? I've been told that roughly 7% of archery hunters use an xbow, and I have also been informed by two xbow mfg reps that the total number of xbow hunters in North America is between 450,000 and 500,000, w/ 100,000 alone in Ohio. This would come out to about 7 1/2 million archery hunters total. While I freely admit these are estimates and hence fall under your opinion category, it is a huge number to ever paint broadly w/ any kind of brush.


here is what you are dealing with

most of the opposition comes from people who think more bowhunters will decrease their chances of getting the big buck "they deserve". this is usually the average xbow hater-they are basicall greedy and lack confidence in their own ability. they worry about other people having an "unfair advantage". these people-while selfish-are basically easy to understand

the others are more complex. they couch their hatred in lofty terms of "tradition" the purity of bowhunting and other noble sounding nonsense-sort of like the "concerned citizens" in the Jim Crow era who hid racism behind appeals to the late great antebellum southern society

these people have a couple motivations

1) some are merely greedy but are a bit more subtle in their actions or realize that greed looks bad so they try to convince themselves that their exclusionary policy are actually based on proper reasons

2) then you have the cultists. these people measure their self worth by their status as a "bowhunter". its more than a hobby to them its a LIFESTYLE (this comes directly from the PBS -a lie filled xbow bashing cult of elitists). By allowing xbows, you reject their creed and undermine their very sense of self worth


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## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

Jim

you should listen to source. the guy has wisdom


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Love Bowhunting said:


> Jim
> 
> you shouldn't ask Source those questions because he cannot deal with them.
> 
> I've taken pity on this poor person. He is not responsible for what he says.



its taken a few thousand posts but source has now made the following admissions that pretty well doom him from having an ability to formulate an argument that has any merit to an objective decision maker

these admissions are

1) crossbow legalization does not have a deleterious impact on the state of the herd

2) there is no societal interest in keeping xbows out of bowseason

based on those admissions all he can argue is the SUBJECTIVE feelings of people who feel like him

that's a losing argument


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## Oxford (Jun 26, 2002)

*here we go again...*

hey guys -- remember when we told you that we are not going to allow the "merit if crossbow" debates? 

Guess not 

30 days in the hole for the next shot fired 

Have a nice day.

Yer bud
OX


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