# Lots of Pulling...What About Pushing?



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

bgviii said:


> I see a lot of discussion about back tension and pulling through the release. I'm wondering what are the opinions on pushing into the bow? I currently push when I draw the bow but then forget about it and simply brace the bow while I aim and pull through the shot. I don't notice any drift one direction. However, I know some guys who consciously push the sight at the target. They say it makes them steadier. Does anyone else do this? I can always be steadier!


There are those that are very successful with a push I used to be one of them but was convinced a long time ago to just pull. I recently tried to add some push but decided that it was not working out for me. I found (for me) that pulling hard, but not abruptly, into the wall sets the bone to bone nicely. This Alistair Whittingham video has really helped me in several setup areas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&index=7&list=PLAVFmM4j7zpa1SLMJlmlJ1wtXexZtJS6S


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Done in a manner, a ever so slight "push" can steady the pin, but still back tension is kept. Consciously? I think work at a controlled push where it becomes second nature. I think most do it and don't know it. And where you see explosive shots. You push too hard and the shakes will invade all. Push too hard and not only the shakes, but you wear out yourself. Perhaps a misconception of how Terry Wunderle wants his students "pulling the bow apart." Terry notes "strong bow arm" and "90% of all bad shots stem from the bow arm." He doesn't say "push," but to "clean up" the bow arm.

"I think most do it and don't know it." All in place back tension or increase of back tension does steady the sight. Relaxed to get on target, pin floating on target, and then allowing back tension to come forth either on it's own or adding enough you know you have back tension < something on that order. I know I've tried consciously "pushing" and nothing worked. On the other hand, I've just shot a bow and put it down range because it didn't have a bow sling, so "push" or more like a strong bow arm had to be there. The owner wanted me to demonstrate how good his bow shot. I didn't think, just shot. Bow went skidding down range (no damage) and the arrow was in the bull's eye.

Just saw EPLC's reply. Yes, bone structure. Larry Wise touches on this also; "That means your shoulders must be level, your dominant-side scapula in position to begin back tension, drawing elbow slightly raised above level and your bow arm extended to allow the force of your tension to be carried by bone structure."


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it's pretty well established, currently, that the push element of a shot has taken the back seat with the bows of today, because of the very firm walls. those hard walls transfer input bias, pretty good. too much push and your steering the shot. years ago when bows weren't as hard walled, there was room for a little push. if you look back chronologically, I think you'll find that as the walls got better, the push idea, was abandoned.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

I have a slight push towards the target. Changed to that after a discussion with a 60x tournament shooter. He said guys that shoot a lot outdoors in wind like to have a little push as well.

Watch the Pros and it's pretty clear what they have going on up front.

It has added x's to my games.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

even with a firm wall you want to get in the habit of pushing the arrow into the target and pulling threw the shot , some like to tech you to explode into the target ,i like to finesse it a bit


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I've tried rewriting this several times and keep screwing it up. So here goes the last time

The "push" for me is part of the expansion...it's the last part of the firing process. If I do it right...arrow is always in the 10. Unfortunately I over think and it doesn't happen often.

What I do is basically "give up" the back. back holds the bow and when I'm ready to fire, the draw side goes one way, relaxed through the shot but the bow side "springs" or pushes to the target. 

crap, got to run...will come back to this


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Fury90flier said:


> I've tried rewriting this several times and keep screwing it up. So here goes the last time
> 
> The "push" for me is part of the expansion...it's the last part of the firing process. If I do it right...arrow is always in the 10. Unfortunately I over think and it doesn't happen often.
> 
> What I do is basically "give up" the back. back holds the bow and when I'm ready to fire, the draw side goes one way, relaxed through the shot but the bow side "springs" or pushes to the target. crap, got to run...will come back to this


To me this sounds like an alignment issue. I love this Alistair Whittingham video... has helped me more than I could imagine... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&index=7&list=PLAVFmM4j7zpa1SLMJlmlJ1wtXexZtJS6S


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I push and pull in same time, not sure what is a ratio but assume 50:50%, I would call this hanging the drawn bow between two points....
I have no solid backwall but the holding weight is 23-24 lbs and the DL is set to last 1 mm, my cams stops on cables only and here I have a precise creep tuned full DL....
I don't use the hinge but a cascade10, so holding the bow neutral in bow hand also holding the release hand neutral and without any motion in wrist or elbow or any muscles at all, I just relax the thumb and the timing will execute a cleanest shot in about 5-6 seconds...


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

EPLC said:


> To me this sounds like an alignment issue. I love this Alistair Whittingham video... has helped me more than I could imagine... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&index=7&list=PLAVFmM4j7zpa1SLMJlmlJ1wtXexZtJS6S


thanks for the link...will look at it shortly.

not really an alignment issue...they're both "in-line" just move in opposite directions...kind of like a split the bow in part. And if other issues don't creep in, it's a bull.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the push is there as an element of resisting the bows holding weight. again, this is an issue that is intertwined with form and draw weight . on expansion that resistance is immediately gone and turns into what looks like a deliberate push, directly at the target in form of follow through..


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> To me this sounds like an alignment issue.


No, fury doesn't have an alignment issue. What he describes is normal, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcNzmFbNO5M

Notice that the draw arm flies back and the bow springs towards the target. Some shooters, like this one, have the bow go a bit to the side on the follow through. But there's no "alignment issue" involved here in what fury is describing.

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

unclejane said:


> No, fury doesn't have an alignment issue. What he describes is normal, for example:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcNzmFbNO5M
> 
> ...


Not sure that closing both eyes on every shot is a good idea though


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Fury90flier said:


> thanks for the link...will look at it shortly.
> 
> not really an alignment issue...they're both "in-line" just move in opposite directions...kind of like a split the bow in part. And if other issues don't creep in, it's a bull.


The AW video is about the draw, not the release. EPLC is likely confusing your report of your follow through as who knows what. 

As for the notion of a "push", I've also never found it useful. I tried it at my coach's urging back when I shot Oly recurve, but it never really helped me so I never used the idea. I muchly prefer the idea of the front-end being simply an inactive, inert support for the force of the bow (that definitely is an AW concept of course), tho it's sort of the front side of "expansion" with the back muscles... But that's just my take on it and of course others' MMV.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> Not sure that closing both eyes on every shot is a good idea though



As for closing the eyes, it's a good bet everyone does it involuntarily on a surprise release, and it'd show up on slo-mo video as it does with this shooter. The arrow is away before it happens in this case and probably the same holds for all of us.

LS


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

I think of it more as a "reach" not a push. Shoulders down and relaxed while I reach for the target. Keeps the front half strong for me. 
To each their own though.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

i have been to terry wunderly for tune ups, and even though i dont do it he pushes you to explode into the target , pull the bow apart, wile there under his instruction i can do this flawlessly, he had me run 100 xs, but this style shooting wheres on my body, it takes a week to recover, i kind of scale this back to a more finesse style still pushing and pulling just not trying to explode


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Not sure that closing both eyes on every shot is a good idea though


Read this. I got a chuckle. field14, Tom, taken twice. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924&p=1063209359#post1063209359


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

closing your eyes on the break of the shot doesn't matter, by the time you close your eyes, the arrow is already out of the bow. it's a natural reaction to unexpected surprise.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> closing your eyes on the break of the shot doesn't matter, by the time you close your eyes, the arrow is already out of the bow. it's a natural reaction to unexpected surprise.


While that may be true for some (it certainly is for the guy in the video) it's not the best thing to do IMO. I believe that keeping your eye pinned on the spot until the arrow hits will produce much better results...


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I almost think the guy in n the video is exaggerating the "surprise" in the "surprise shot", it just seems too much. But as Ron noted, as long as the arrow is gone, it don't matter.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC, you misunderstood what I said......
you close your eyes,"a blink" when you experience an unexpected surprise. not close them for any length of time. the blink happens as a natural defense response that is built in to your physiology. your focus on the spot doesn't change or wonder, and your eyes simply pick up the process where they left off, after the blink. so you are continually focusing on the spot until the arrow is in the target. the reaction causes your eues to blink, but the arrow is already out of the bow.
it is however, true, that once the arrow is out of the bow, it really doesn't matter if you're seeing the shot or not. 
as a matter of intended influence and the fact that whatever you do to deliberately influence the shot after the shot breaks, starts before the shot breaks. if your intention is to see the arrow into the target, your subconscious does what it has been trained to do, by the link between conscious sight and sub conscious administration of shot command. if that link, knows your not going to watch the shot, it begins to close your eyes, before the shot breaks, so they are closed in time to "not" see the arrow's flight. the blink from your defense response allows your eyes to blink and then immediately, picks up where it left off, before the response and everything runs as it should.
it takes serious training to over-ride that defense response of blinking on the break of the shot. and is part of the process of training you body to react to the shot without influencing the outcome.
this issue is also, a crucial element of precision high power rifle shooting.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> EPLC, you misunderstood what I said......
> you close your eyes,"a blink" when you experience an unexpected surprise. not close them for any length of time. the blink happens as a natural defense response that is built in to your physiology. your focus on the spot doesn't change or wonder, and your eyes simply pick up the process where they left off, after the blink. so you are continually focusing on the spot until the arrow is in the target. the reaction causes your eues to blink, but the arrow is already out of the bow.


Exactly. It's not a matter of bad form, it's a normal reflex action. I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of shooters do the blink normally - I know I still do it when the release goes off, even tho I keep my eyes on the target for a couple seconds after the shot (a Michelle Ragsdale adoption of mine). Another example is Sarah Lance, who's an elite level shooter (she won Lancaster last year and placed high this year, I believe) - on release, her whole head rotates back visibly on the release and she probably blinks momentarily also. Don't know how she does it but she does LOL...

LS


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