# Bear vs. Martin



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Mine have mostly been painted, but I'd be happy to take pictures of them for and post them here later today.

I've had both bear and martin bows. Most everyone broke on me. I've had several kodiaks that broke and so bought martin hunters, mamba's, and finally got traded out to a hatfield which did not break. I recently had a bear takedown as well that never gave me problems either. My draw length is 31" and I think that is what caused most of my grief over all. For longer draws, for some reason, takedowns haven't created any problems for me, and limb profile is my guess.

Martin gave me a hatfield and two sets of limbs in exchange for all my cracked bows, and I just sorta hung out with them since, buying three more longbows from them that are used regularly... two of them now a decade old.

When it comes to the bows themselves... I loved the Kodiak... just too short. The takedown might be fine. The SuperMag is an interesting looking bow as well, a little like my first browning.

When it comes to Martin though, they've always as long as I've known them, to be in the traditional marketplace with well crafted bows. Their overall selection gives something for everyone and they have very beautiful bows.

I like both manufacturers, but my money's gone to Martin.

Aloha...  :beer:


----------



## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

Martin,their the more progressive company.
In my area at lest,they have more dealers and of course,exellent back up.
Now days in NZ, virtualy nobody under 30 years old even knows who Fred Bear was,and the company doesn't push themselves.
Martin bows are also cheaper here,which is a biggie when you consider our prices are often twice what a person will pay in the USA.
I currently own 2 Martin bows bought new,my one bear was bought second hand over 25 years ago and both Martins are also faster and better looking than the bear.


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

Martin and Bear both make some great bows. I've never had any breakage problems but then I only draw 28" or so and I pity the poor souls who know little about Fred Bear. I think the two brands are pretty even as far as performance goes. I use to shoot occassionally with a friend who preferred a Hatfield T/D and I've always preferred the Bear T/D. We swapped bows occasionally and I came to the conclusion that the two shot about the same but felt much different. The Hatfield handle is relatively large and squarish. The Bear handle is very narrow and thin. You may want to try both before you decide which you prefer. Larger grips make me tend to torque the bow so I like more narrow ones. The Bear T/D is a no tool take down which can be very handy but comes at a high retail cost. It's also a deceptively heavy riser, which I find very stable. I also prefer 64" recurves and few of either brand are available in this length. The Hatfield only comes in 62". The Bear T/D is generally a 60" bow with the standard B riser but 3-Rivers is selling the #3 limbs that make a 64" bow. I also like the Super Kodiak and Grizzly bear bows but they are too short for me to shoot comfortably, as are the other Martins.


----------



## Howattman54 (Mar 19, 2006)

Ok, let's start with a HUGE clarification. Martin (Howatt) bows ARE NOT MASS PRODUCED!!!! They are made by hand, one at a time. No CNC machines, no replicators, none of that crap.

Now that that's out of the way......I prefer Martins (Howatts). I started with a Bear bow back in the early 1970's and shot it for many years. By the time I decided to retire my old bow and get another one, however, the quality of the Bear line had gone dramatically south. No more exotic hardwoods, no more innovative designs....just cookie cutter bows that were made as fast as the replicator machines in Gainesville could spit them out. It was then I purchased my first Damon Howatt bow. I've owned or shot many other brands over the years, but I decided pretty quick that Howatts were for me.

Howattman


----------



## Lanny (May 4, 2005)

Are Damon Howatt bows Martin bows? I'm confused on this point. Are all Martin traditional bows handmade? 

Sorry to hear about your breakage problems Rattus58, had no idea a 31" DL would have such an effect!  I pull 27" so don't figure on having to deal with that. I like the Super Kodiak, but it's as pricey as some customs.

I've always admired the Martin recurves in a local outlet, they're certainly good-looking. Glad to hear their performance sounds up to snuff as well.

AKRuss, how can the bows be "too short" with your 28" DL? Are we talking finger pinch here? Or something else?


----------



## Howattman54 (Mar 19, 2006)

Damon Howatt began making bows for himself and his friends in his garage in 1938. His bows were highly sought after, so in 1944 he started Damon Howatt Archery in Yakima, WA. Mr. Howatt was killed in a car accident shortly after selling the company to another local businessman (Bob Paisley) in 1964. Gail Martin (Martin Archery) purchased the Damon Howatt Archery Company from Mr. Paisley in 1976. 

Up until the mid 1990's, Martin sold the Howatt bows under the Damon Howatt name, but many people were confused so they started marking them with the Martin logo and name in 1997-1998. All recurves and longbows sold by Martin are and always have been made BY HAND at the Damon Howatt Plant in Yakima, WA. (So are the majority of limbs for Martin compounds, by the way!). 

Howattman


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I don't think anyone said Martins or Bear trad bows are "mass" produced. They both make great bows at a good price. However, they're certainly not made to order like a Black Widow or Blacktail. There is lots of hand work that goes into all bows, I guess some more than others though I hardly see that it makes any difference. I think the current production Bear bows are as good as they've ever made, from a fit, finish and "shootability" perspective. Yes, I miss the rosewood and phenolic SuperKs and Tamerlanes of yesteryear as much as anyone else and keep mine out just to look at them from time to time. It really is best to shoot the different bows instead of listening to everyone defend their favorites, although I guess that's the point of the thread. 

Lanny, I like to shoot everyday, if I can. Even 62" recurves create finger pinch for me once in a while. I shoot a glove and this probably wouldn't be a factor if I shot a tab. I can shoot a 64" recurve all day, everyday and not experience any pinch.


----------



## NDTerminator (Nov 6, 2006)

I have a Martin Mamba and a Bear K-Mag. Both are well made bows and you really can't compare a 52" brush/ground blind bow to a 58" general purpose bow, but the Martin is the better performing and more asthetically pleasing bow, hands down.

I wrote/posted this before, but at #55 with a 525/530 grain arrow, the Mamba generates 195FPS and leaves all my other bows in the dust.

I have a couple Kotas and when I told Tim (Finley) my astonishment at the performance of the Mamba, he advised that he borrowed some aspects of the Mamba in the design of his Prairie Swift recurve (which I have).

I'll see about posting a picture of them later...


----------



## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

I've owned both Martins and Howatts over the years and they've always proven to be good shooters.


----------



## Joel C (Nov 23, 2005)

AKRuss said:


> I don't think anyone said Martins or Bear trad bows are "mass" produced. They both make great bows at a good price. *However, they're certainly not made to order like a Black Widow or Blacktail.* There is lots of hand work that goes into all bows, I guess some more than others though I hardly see that it makes any difference. I think the current production Bear bows are as good as they've ever made, from a fit, finish and "shootability" perspective. Yes, I miss the rosewood and phenolic SuperKs and Tamerlanes of yesteryear as much as anyone else and keep mine out just to look at them from time to time. It really is best to shoot the different bows instead of listening to everyone defend their favorites, although I guess that's the point of the thread.


What makes you think that a Martin is not as 'custom' as a Black Widow? Black Widow bows are made on a CNC machine...all Martin bows are hand shaped and laminated as they are ordered. Depending on model there are wood, glass and grip options for a nominal fee. If you want a personal message or a Gail Martin signature there is no additional fee. Martin is also the only company using a double taper limb design.


----------



## Joel C (Nov 23, 2005)

Howattman54 said:


> Ok, let's start with a HUGE clarification. Martin (Howatt) bows ARE NOT MASS PRODUCED!!!! They are made by hand, one at a time. No CNC machines, no replicators, none of that crap.
> 
> Now that that's out of the way......I prefer Martins (Howatts). I started with a Bear bow back in the early 1970's and shot it for many years. By the time I decided to retire my old bow and get another one, however, the quality of the Bear line had gone dramatically south. No more exotic hardwoods, no more innovative designs....just cookie cutter bows that were made as fast as the replicator machines in Gainesville could spit them out. It was then I purchased my first Damon Howatt bow. I've owned or shot many other brands over the years, but I decided pretty quick that Howatts were for me.
> 
> Howattman


Not to mention the staff of Howatt's has decades upon decades of experience!


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

*I'm not an anti-Martin guy ... gimme a break.*

Well ... I'm not sure I'd put either Martin or BW in the "custom" category, whatever that is. I believe I can call 3-Rivers or some other retailer and get a Martin or Bear bow sent the same or next day in nearly any model and weight I desire. For a number of reasons, some of which are marketing strategies, you generally can't do that with a Black Widow. The wait for a BW, which is made to the customer's order, is a few months. The wait for say a Blacktail is several months; approaching a year. I guess I could order a Martin, or Bear for that matter, directly from the company but I'm not sure why I would. Alternately, I guess I could order a Black Widow or Blacktail from a retailer, but again, I'm not sure why I would. I think there is a difference. I'm not saying it's good or bad and I'm certainly not bashing anyone's bow. I think Martin makes great bows and the people are tops. If Martin made a 64" Dream Catcher, I'd have one. Could I call them have have one made? I've asked Bear if they would make a new 64" Super Kodiak (so I could retire my old one) and they would not. I called Black Widow several years ago and asked for a 66" MAB recurve with all phenolic riser and they did, at no extra charge (the riser was a prototype). There are no Martin or Bear dealers in my neck of the woods but there are lots of their bows around. Again, I'm not bashing any brand - I love 'em all. 

Joel, let me know if I'm all wet ...


----------



## Lanny (May 4, 2005)

So from the responses here there's little argument that Martin recurves are fast and pretty. Are Bear bows slow and ugly? Personally, I like the looks of the Mambas, Hunters, Super Kodiaks and even the "working man's" Grizzly (yah, I know, subtle marketing ploy). Anyone able to post pics for an online comparison?

BTW, I had no idea you could order woods and shaped risers from Martin. Dealer never mentioned this, so maybe he doesn't know either.


----------



## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

AKRuss said:


> Well ... I'm not sure I'd put either Martin or BW in the "custom" category, whatever that is. I believe I can call 3-Rivers or some other retailer and get a Martin or Bear bow sent the same or next day in nearly any model and weight I desire. For a number of reasons, some of which are marketing strategies, you generally can't do that with a Black Widow. The wait for a BW, which is made to the customer's order, is a few months. The wait for say a Blacktail is several months; approaching a year. I guess I could order a Martin, or Bear for that matter, directly from the company but I'm not sure why I would. Alternately, I guess I could order a Black Widow or Blacktail from a retailer, but again, I'm not sure why I would. I think there is a difference. I'm not saying it's good or bad and I'm certainly not bashing anyone's bow. I think Martin makes great bows and the people are tops. If Martin made a 64" Dream Catcher, I'd have one. Could I call them have have one made? I've asked Bear if they would make a new 64" Super Kodiak (so I could retire my old one) and they would not. I called Black Widow several years ago and asked for a 66" MAB recurve with all phenolic riser and they did, at no extra charge (the riser was a prototype). There are no Martin or Bear dealers in my neck of the woods but there are lots of their bows around. Again, I'm not bashing any brand - I love 'em all.
> 
> Joel, let me know if I'm all wet ...



OK---just to be fair, I have to back Joel up and clarify a few things for you, AKRuss. I _have_ owned a Martin Hunter (which was recently sold on eBay) which I had made to my specs. I ordered it from Pat's Archery in OK, and I was able to get the draw weight I desired at my draw length (60#@30"), my name inscribed on the riser, stabilizer insert, and quiver bushings installed at no extra charge. Apparently, I could have gotten different grip options as well, but stuck with the regular medium wrist grip. So while there may be other independent bowyers that may offer more "custom" options (like Chek-Mate, for example), I think it's a little...simplistic to state that you can simply "call a dealer and have one shipped to you off the shelf" when you _do_ have the option of getting certain custom choices---if you're dealing with a dealer that has his head on straight


----------



## dcwhite55044 (Nov 6, 2003)

It only matters to the guy or gal behind the bow. Custom or mass.....who cares as long as you like it. They will all "perform" inn the right hands.

Must of us who have ordered a "custom" bow do so because it makes us feel unique and we can add those "personalized" touches (woods, antler tips, inscriptions, etc.) that make it feel special to us. Thats really what you are paying for.

If you are looking for pure performance get an Olympic high-tech recurve with specialiized limbs. Then you are paying for pure performance.


----------



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

*Custom Martins*

OK, I give ... Martin recurves are as made to order as Black Widows, LOL. I have no idea why we belabor the point or even of what the possible value it is but I'll concede; maybe to get inserts and writing. I'm still not ready to call either custom but that really depends on how you define the word and chances are we don't agree on that point either. To whom do I place the call for the 64" Dream Catcher with phenolic and inlaid Brazilian Rosewood riser? I'm only kidding ... Martins are super bows. If I didn't have so many old Bear and Wing bows, I'd buy some Martins. I'm going to hug my old SuperK when I get home, sniff ...


----------



## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

I still find the bears to stack less and shoot smoother, though the martins are better looking (lately)

I have yet to find a recurve, old or new, that shoots as smooth as my Super Kodiaks. Of course I havent tried them all, so the search continues....


----------



## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

archerm3 said:


> I still find the bears to stack less and shoot smoother, though the martins are better looking (lately)
> 
> I have yet to find a recurve, old or new, that shoots as smooth as my Super Kodiaks. Of course I havent tried them all, so the search continues....


I've owned relatively recently made Martins (2007), older Martins, and even older Damon Howatts, and I must say that the newer Martin I had didn't have the stacking past 28" that a lot of the older Martins and Howatts displayed, and I have heard others say the same thing about the newer models as well. Apparently Martin is continually progressing...


----------



## SCS (Jun 27, 2005)

AKRuss
Go to tradtalk and send a PM to Larry Hatfield. Maybe you'll be suprised what they will build for you.
Steve


----------



## tpoof (Dec 18, 2005)

My Martin sticks include.. Hatfield takedown with 55lb and 45lb limbs, Mountaineer longbow, X200 recurve, Bushmaster longbow and a old Mamba recurve... although Bear bows I'm sure are great,, its alsways been Martins for me,, I have had no problems.


----------



## Chris Wilson (Aug 16, 2005)

> I still find the bears to stack less and shoot smoother,


 Funny, I've found just the opposite to be true.


----------



## Apex Predator (Jan 27, 2007)

I'm a big fan of Martin/Howatt and have owned quite a few over the years. They have all been outstanding performers, and very beautiful to boot. Here are a few:










58" Hi-Speed










Savannah










Second generation Super Diablo










Dream Catcher, that is still built on the Super Diablo forms










Newer Hunter










Older Hunter


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I had half a dozen bears over time and I still have 3 Martin's and have owned pretty much every one of their older bows, mamba, hunter, diablo,etc, and three of their longbows... including a new bamboo viper recently, and the hatfield. I've not shot the savanah, but Martin used to consider it their best shooter till the bamboo viper and venom came along.

I've sold dozens of Bear bows over the years and wouldn't hesitate for a moment to deliver one if I was still selling them, but bear isn't quite the same as Martin. Martin still embraces the traditions of longbows and recurves and has not gone through any "cylcles" of their products, they've been there... steady eddy.. producing longbows and recurves along with their hightech compounds, but never at the expense of the traditional lines as has happened in my opinion with Bear. 

Would I recommend one over the other.... I only own Martin's right now.

Aloha...  :beer:


----------



## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> I had half a dozen bears over time and I still have 3 Martin's and have owned pretty much every one of their older bows, mamba, hunter, diablo,etc, and three of their longbows... including a new bamboo viper recently, and the hatfield. I've not shot the savanah, but Martin used to consider it their best shooter till the bamboo viper and venom came along.
> 
> I've sold dozens of Bear bows over the years and wouldn't hesitate for a moment to deliver one if I was still selling them, but bear isn't quite the same as Martin. Martin still embraces the traditions of longbows and recurves and has not gone through any "cylcles" of their products, they've been there... steady eddy.. producing longbows and recurves along with their hightech compounds,* but never at the expense of the traditional lines as has happened in my opinion with Bear.*
> 
> ...


Seems like---at least judging from the newer items offered in Bear's 2008 traditional line---you may be right, Tom. I noticed that the longest AMO length recurve that Bear is offering this year is 60" How's that gonna help a guy with gorilla arms like me? And many of Bear's newer recurves look...umm...exactly alike. I think Martin may have the edge as far as variety goes, and a better selection of recurve and longbow sizes to fit everyone from the shorties to the tree-tall gorilla armed freaks like me:wink:


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi Alan,

Same here, 31" draw and single piece bow is hard on the limbs... the bows and mine... my schnozz too as it turned out... :grin:

Aloha...


----------



## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

I don't shoot a lot of recurves but like the Martin longbows pretty good.I have never shot a Bear bow that I know of but some of the older ones look nice.


----------

