# Mathews is Mad



## Archeryboy (Feb 1, 2003)

Matt did make a cam and 1/2 before Hoyt. Matt has all the documnetaion to prove it. He just choose not to patten it.

But more to the point Hoyt is and will always be behind on the cam & 1/2. Because Darton made thier C/P/S way back in !996 and Pattented it # 5505185.

And I quote " Hoyt Usa & Darton have entered an agreement for Hoyt to Utilize on its Cam & !/2 bows some of the technology used by Darton C/S/P. "

So get over it!!!!!!!!!!


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## TopPin (Jan 18, 2003)

Grndzer

Mathews mad because Hoyt got the cam 1/2 to work and they did'nt ? I dont think Hoyt got it to work , it does'nt do what they say it does either !! Actually it is a two cam bow(if it aint round on one end it is a two cam bow) which they themselves said are dead ? Where do they go from here when things dont work ? Pretty much closed doors #1 and #2 !!!
Lets wait to see how they tune up with fixed position broadheads or shoot them when string and cable stretches!! 

Yeah, I'll bet Mathews has already called Serta Sleeper because they are are so upset !!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

First, I don`t know why people are still beating this horse? I am fairly certain it`s dead by now.

Second, for TopPin....I already have two different cam.5 bows slinging thunderhead 125`s in the 285-290fps range as sweet as any fieldpoint ever flew. It was easy to do.

It is equally easy to do it with a Mathews bow...they make fantastic bows too!


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## Grndzer (Jan 17, 2003)

I just like to see them whine! Its funny!


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Proving facts is hardly whinning....


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

actually if i remember right didn't martin try something like that many years ago. i thought i saw something about a cam and 1/2 but it wasn't called that and i wish i could remember what it was called. i know they were the first with a single cam so i am not sure when the other was sorry 
rob k


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

Matt's ad campaign is pathetic as he11, other than that I'm not saying anything. Got as much future as "Ford vs Chevy"....none!


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## bengalarcher (Apr 2, 2003)

*MATHEWS RIP OFF*

MATHEWS HAS RIPPED OFF IDEAS FROM OTHER MANUFACTURES. LOOK AT ARCHERYHISTORY.COM HE DIDNT INVENT THE SINGLE CAM. MOST OF WHAT IS ON THEIR BOW WASNT INVENTED BY HIM. HE IS GREAT AT MARKETING AND MAKING YOU SUCKERS BY HIS PRODUCTS BY COMING UP WITH NEW TWEEKS TO THE WHEEL EACH YEAR. ALL MANUFACTORS RIPP OFF EACH OTHER. JUST GO TO THEIR PLANTS THEY'LL HAVE THEIR COMPEITATORS BOWS THEIR SO THEY CAN STUDY AND ANALYZE EACH OTHERS PRODUCT.


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## loopone (Jan 18, 2003)

bengalarcher, hey man mellow out, the people that benifit are the archers, this is the way we ( archers ) get better products. if you want to get techincal, just about ( that's right just about ) every manufacture has a bow that looks like a Mathews bow in one from or another.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

bengalarcher......Did you know that Matt designed a bow for Martin back when he was in school....They dont ever mention that one...


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

skeletons in the closet?no... just the days of our lives.....lol


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Well my wife has been shooting PB's after PB's with her Cam 1/2 and her cams have not gone out of time at all, even when I've moved the cams on purpose, they still drill the X. My twin cam Protec has not moved out of time since I bought it second hand in March, and I shoot 3000 arrows a month. 
What does this mean? Don't believe the hype.


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## loopone (Jan 18, 2003)

Marcus, what it means is I don't believe your hype, two cams don't move or go out of time, give me a BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you got the bow in March and shoot 3000 arrows a month that's 9000 + shots and the string has not moved ???? what ever !!!!!!!!!!


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## bengalarcher (Apr 2, 2003)

YEAH, SO SAYS WHO. MAT. HE ALSO DENOUNCES TWIN CAM BOWS, BUT PETE OVER AT PSE SINGS THERE PRAISES. I trust 30 years in the biz better than mats johnny come lately status. dont get so wrapped up in hype of a mathews. i keep hearing that ar has the new bow to beat, but you know everybody loves mathews because they slopped all over the freaking tv and mags. i gave him credit for being a great marketer and innovator. but not an inventor. stealing ideas is not a inventor. did you ever think of that.


LX_Shooter said:


> *bengalarcher......Did you know that Matt designed a bow for Martin back when he was in school....They dont ever mention that one... *


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## loopone (Jan 18, 2003)

Don't even start about the stealing issue !!!!!!!!!! if I remember right didn't PSE come out with a bow that LOOKED JUST LIKE A MQ1 after the MQ1 was released in 1998 and the they released one that LOOKED JUST LIKE A ULTRA MAX. Matt has done more for this sport than anybody alive today !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Grndzer (Jan 17, 2003)

> Matt has done more for this sport than anybody alive today !!!!!!!!!!!!


Mathews is in it for the money, if there has been any thing done it was for the sake of money not the sport.

Besides we all know that The Nuge is the one that put archery on the map " At least according to his fans" LOL


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

If you honestly think that a 1 cam can't get out of time, then you don't know a ****** thing about bow tuning! Matt is just blowing smoke up your a**! If your string stretches your 1 cam will be off too. Or are the M bows immune to that too?


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## bengalarcher (Apr 2, 2003)

*mathews*

grndzer and hollowpoint10 hit it hard. mat is a money grubbin ****. if you think for a minute that he is in it for the archers, why dont you ask him for a bow. they spend more on advertising than they do any thing else. mathews sticks as many bows in the hands of these television archer as they can, and claim to be that make the greatest products. give me 2 pages in every freakin major hunting magazine and I could selldog terds. the reason the win so many tournaments is because they give their crap away to every pro shooter they can. he is ruining the sport. he is bring in the white collar week end warriors. He is helping to yuppize the sport. I wish mathews would go under. i love my parker. didnt have to spend half the money.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

truthfully guys they are ALL in it for the money...think about it...
some sell bows cheaper than others some more , but they all make a living at it. that is why most of them got started. sure they probably all love archery, but moeny is what the manufacturers strive to make, and i can't blame them. it is expensive to design prototype and market bows , employees, payroll taxes, buildings, insurance workmen's comp electricity..need i go on?
some companies choose to market more agressively than others.
some are a bit quieter. they all advertise just in different ways. 
who believes everything they see in a magazine ad anyways.
the fastest the smoothest etc etc.
go to your archery shop shoot what you want or support the company that best reflects your ideals and give it a rest....


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

loopone said:


> *Marcus, what it means is I don't believe your hype, two cams don't move or go out of time, give me a BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you got the bow in March and shoot 3000 arrows a month that's 9000 + shots and the string has not moved ???? what ever !!!!!!!!!!      *


Yep, have not even had to twist the srtings at all. And I check thenm just in case. Use decent string materials and it's not an issue. If you cams are creeping then you are using teh wrong materials or don't know how to make strings. Don't blame the cams because you don't know what you are doing.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

No the M bows are not immune to timming problems....But for the average its alot less compilacted.. ..Matts in it for the money.. ..Which company isnt ...Give me abreak they are all....But you guys make out like Matt is this all evil person that is bound on yourself destruction if you dont shoot his bow...He is a good person like most of his...And regardless what most think about him and his company he HAS done alot for the sport....And no I am not stupid enough to think the only reason the Pros for Mathews win is because of what they shoot (God knows they could when with anything) But I do give credit where it's due for Mathews still putting money into a sport where guys like them (Pros) can make money...No one is telling you, you have to like Mathews bows...I am not saying the are the best bows out there...But what I am saying is that Matt is not an evil or underminding person......ONE CAM SLAM IS HERE TO STAY....


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

*matthews*

i shoot a hoyt, and have for a few years now, they all have good guys, i dont understand why matthews is looking to slam hoyt, hoyt has nothing to prove, they have been a leader for many years. i think matthews needs to worry about their product and quite digging at hoyt because of sales. personally i dont like the matthews bows, hate the feel and the shot, but some guys like them and that alright,its nice to see variety out there, stop the slams, its not very grown up.


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## loopone (Jan 18, 2003)

Marcus, oh I forgot you live south of the equator and everything down there twist up not stretches out ( just joking ) lol !!!!!


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## PUG (Nov 3, 2002)

*What??*

"Matt has done more for this sport than anybody alive today !!!!!!!!!!!!" Posted by Loopone

What?!?.....2 words, 1 man.....Gail Martin..................PUG


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## bengalarcher (Apr 2, 2003)

*matts quality*

i have never questioned mats quality, but as they continue to go skyward in price so do the rest of the archery buisness. makes it hard for us little people to stay in the sport. m's are the best advertzed in the sport. I dont like the way m portrays him self as the god of invention. he, like other manufactors is idea theif. I have yet to his great contributions.
S/F


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Hollowpoint10 said:


> *If you honestly think that a 1 cam can't get out of time, then you don't know a ****** thing about bow tuning! Matt is just blowing smoke up your a**! If your string stretches your 1 cam will be off too. Or are the M bows immune to that too? *


Well, I'm a mechanical engineer and I know that a one cam CANNOT go out of time. It is physically impossible. One cam, get it, what is it going to go out of time with????????????? Your knocking point will change when the string stretchs. That's it. Mat is just saying that he has eliminated one aspect of bow tuning, cam timing!


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## Derbytown (May 22, 2002)

How many patents does Pete Sheply have in the archery industry? Be safe.
Shoot Straight
Derbytown


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

He states that he has about a million! He even has an ad in the archery magazine with them typed all over the page. I guess every one likes tooting their own horn. Did you know he is manufacturing Brownings and AR's in his shop? So is a Browning or an AR really just a different color PSE?


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

sagecreek said:


> *Well, I'm a mechanical engineer and I know that a one cam CANNOT go out of time. It is physically impossible. One cam, get it, what is it going to go out of time with????????????? Your knocking point will change when the string stretchs. That's it. Mat is just saying that he has eliminated one aspect of bow tuning, cam timing! *


 Sagecreek, when the string stretches and the knock point moves, so does the cam! Therefore it is no longer in the most efficient position (that it was set at by the factory). Call it what you will, but it is out of time (maybee tune is a better word). It cant get out of sync with the idler wheel, I agree with that, but it can move from where it should be. Would it still be as fast and accurate with the cam and knock moved by the string stretch? I dont think so!  Good Shootin'.


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

I know this will raise some questions, but there is no thing as a 1 cam bow. If it has one cam and an idler it will develop no energy. There is however, many bows with both cams on the same axel, refered to as a 1 cam.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I guess we are all right, and yes, the bow will be out of tune if ANYTHING moves in the harnessing of most bows. Someone needs to develop a string that NEVER stretchs.


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

Good point Jo! Sage, it truely would be a wonderfull thing if a string would "never" stretch! I'd buy 5 of em' for all the bows I got around here With "0" stretch, a 2 cam couldn't even get out of time. Cross your fingers Good Shootin'.


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## wrongpin (May 22, 2003)

Bengalarcher,
I dont know why you say mathews is priced so high. I work at a very large pro shop that deals with mathews and hoyt, last time I checked hoyt bows cost the shop much more than the mathews on their high end stuff ie. ultratecs. I would look into your info a little deeper than your local shops retail prices before I made the harsh statments you made.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

> Your knocking point will change when the string stretchs. That's it.


This is more dangerous than twin cams going out of time because your groups will move and you won't know till it's too late, I know exactly when my twins are out of time, I feel it straight away, and it has not happened on it's own with 450 Plus yet, but given my geographical location I draw my bow by the handle anyway.


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## wrongpin (May 22, 2003)

The basic differance between a 2 cam and the cam .5 is that you cannot tell by feel when the cams of the c.5 are out of time.


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## ReconVapor (Aug 26, 2002)

*WHO CARES who made or started what!*

Hoyt is a good bow. Point made

Mathews is a good boy. Point made

they have both been in this industry and proven themselves.

I do give the edge to Hoyt, better representation when going to IBO's or other events, you see reps there from corporate. None from Mathews, just the local dealers.

No one failed to mention that Hoyt has dominated in the IBO ranks so far. They cleaned house here at the 2nd leg in Erie.

But anyways, back to Mathews whining about the cam and a 1/2!
Anytime bad publicity is started, whether it is a tv star, singer, rock band, etc. it tends to work out for the accused. They get more press and advertisement Mathews making this big stink and magazine ads and even the VHS tape of the cam and a half will only bring more attention to Hoyt.
My main point is, did Mathews forget that over 85% of Mathews dealers are also HOYT dealers!!!!
Why shoot yourself in the foot?? If that archery shop sells both bows well and stays in business, why cry about your competitor?? That is just taking business away from that archery shop which Mathews is not a bread and butter, no shop could just survive on that line alone and nothing else in the store. If that archery shop does not stay in business, then what business will you have?
My opinion, if you can sell it, sell it, then I can still do business with you Mathews should say. Because if that archery shop is not in business, then neither will they.....


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Recon ...Good points....But I do know a shop the survives by selling only Mathews.... They had Hoyt & Pakers but after all was said and done more Mathews left the shop than anything....So they let the other lines go....No need for dead weight...


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

Mathews sales have dropped considerably around here. Where has their business gone? Hoyt. Why? Beacause the M shooters realized that Matt was just as full of s*** in his ads as everyone else is. They actually "THOUGHT" about it and realized that a 1 cam, (no matter who makes it), is just as prone to string stretch, knock point and cam position problems as any other bow out there. With the exception of a traditional bow. Overall I think all the ads have made us, (the archers), more aware of whats really going on with our bows. Thats a good thing too, IMO. Next year should be an interesting one, I doubt that any company is sitting still with the innovation after all the ruckas so far this year. The string/cable system on my Mathews is just the same as a 1.5 cam and so are the effects of string stretch on cam position and knock point. The only difference is that on a 1.5 you have a referance point, on a single you dont. If Matts had a tuning mark on the cam then maybee more people would realize that they can and do move, and stop this pointless chatter about how they are immune to any problems. No compound bows are! Thats a reallity check! Happy Shootin' to all...no matter what you shoot.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*I cam out of tune*

Bettter tell Spot hog that!!!! It took them longer to get a one cam back shooting right. go to the Spot hog web site.....They have no axe to grind and it took them almost twice as long to get a 1 cam shooting well comapred to a 2 cam.


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## ftshooter (Jul 26, 2003)

Who pays for all those matthews ADs anyway .I would rather buy a hunting bow and not pay an extra 200-300 dollars for ads .. 

Dynamo ..Martin was the first single cam bow ..I think .. 

"Catch Us If you can" .... No not really please don't ..


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

IS this all this forum has come to? All I ever see anymore is Mathews vs. Hoyt......I mean who really cares. 

With all this bow bashing do you guys & gals realize how many people may turned off on it? Heck I bet a lot of them read some of this B.S. and never come back. 

People shoot what they shoot for whatever reason, I am so sick of this stupid my bow company is better than your bow company stuff.  

Actually I am getting to the point I am tired of all bashing from anyone on any product (yes I have bashed too, now I regret it after watching this B.S. for the last month). I am actually rather tired of all these forums and the product bashing that goes on. 

cya


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## geronimo1172 (Jul 26, 2003)

So what andthe point is? Iam happy hopefully there will be competition now


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

The point is that product bashing is a put off for a lot of people and has in the past run people off of these forums. It's actually a rather childish activity if you ask me.

I would never tell you your bow was bad because I didn't like the companies marketing practice, you made the choice so that is fine. I have no need to say anything about anyones choice in equipment just like they have no right to say anything about mine.


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## geronimo1172 (Jul 26, 2003)

Some say the solo cam is hard to tune this is something I have never done TUNE any mathews or any solo cam sales around here haven't dropped for mathews if you really want to compare the two look at stats for this years tourny's


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## bowfever (Jan 13, 2003)

*Mathews Going Wrong Direction With Slam Ads!*

In my neck of the woods Mathews negative ad campaign is not helping them at all and these guys are Mathews shooters. They are also hard working honest people who do not agree on trying to hurt other people for gain. They are now purchasing other brands of bows because of Mathews ad nonsense.

It took me a year but I finally saw the light and sold my Mathews Legacy for a more compact and lighter weight hunting bow and I'm certainly glad I did. What was interesting, the Mathews dealer who I purchased my Legacy from told me all kind of negative things about my new Parker bow. Like it had to much "hand shock and vibration" and it wouldn't shoot at 40 yards or stay in tune or shoot broadheads. When I proved to him none of that was true he told me all that "shock and vibration" would eventually cause me health problems!?! I have hung around his archery shop long enough to hear him tell other perspective buyers simular stories over and over. To be very honest I see this with Mathews dealers more than the any other brand dealers. I really feel thier negative advertising campaign now and even before this promotes this type of trickle down effect to thier dealers. 

There are a lot of really great bow companies with superb products out there that do not stoop to this type of nonsense so shop around. Like me you might be glad you did! 

Put your over-weight , over-built and way over-advertised hunting bow on a diet buy a quality Parker or Diamond bow!


www.parkerbows.com
www.diamondarchery.com


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

No thanks my over paid bow is doing just fine....BTW what you give for your Parker


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Negative ads*

Lets turn it around. Please state what you shoot and tell us why you like it......without mentioning competitive names. Also bows are a lot like shoes. If the grip does not fit in your hand comfortly it will not shoot properly.....regardless of the brand. When I sell bows....I ask a price they want to pay.......show them one of each companies brand in that range and they tell me what feels right. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO BUY A BOW. A guy came in last night told me his friend told him yo buy a used XYZ bow it would be better then a new ABC bow......I told him that what happens when the used bow breaks if it breaks......there is no warranty.....then I asked him if the guy picked out his shoes also. He said NO so I replied how can he pick out your bow....Your hand may be a different size, So he picked up several NEW ones and found they did not all feel the same. Told me that a DEF bow felt great.....with a 10 year warranty!!!!! He said the XYZ bow did not feel good at all. No other way to buy or sell bows!!!!!!! Any bow will kill a deer or a moose at 30 yards providing the lbs are around 45-60!!!!!!! Archery always has been a close range sport. So back to the bows. Tell us the good things about why you like YOUR BOW.......leave the negative things out about the competition!!!!!!!! Just a thought!!!!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

With Hoyt's record sales on the cam and 1/2 - it is obvious that "they got it to work". Sorry Matt.


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## Archeryboy (Feb 1, 2003)

Bowfever-

I don't think nocking other bows is just a Mathews dealer thing.
I have a dealer close to me that knocks anything he doesn't sell. (He doesn't sell Mathews) 

I have shot a Parker bow and it did have some hand shock. I believe my Mathews Legacy, (WhhWhich is what I had at the time when I shot the Parker) Shot better. I liked the PArker but for me the Mathews was better. Parker has a good bow line. 

In your post aren't you using negative speak about the 
" put your over weight,................"

Saying something against, something then truning around and to the thing you said was wrong.

This is called Hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bowfever (Jan 13, 2003)

*Answers*

Archeryboy,

I visit almost every archery store I run across, and I feel the Mathews dealers seem to do the most "negative talking" of all the dealers. Yes, some of the others do too, but not near the extent the Mathews do. AND it has really gotten worse this year -wonder why? The Mathews' negative ads are a bad example for the entire archery industry. I can definitely tell you that! 

Again I shoot not only my three Parker 31 Ultra-Lite bows, but now also my new Diamond Stinger every bit as good as my old Mathews Legacy and that's saying something as everyone is well aware how well the Legacy shoots! In fact the Diamond Stinger is very smooth and quiet, hard to believe in a 28 inch axle to axle bow. (We shoot almost daily to 60 yards) However, my total bow weight is about 2 lbs. less and much more streamline than my old Legacy, which all adds up to a great hunting bow. 

No, I can talk negatively about hunting bow weight or bow products as I'm not a manufacturer of archery products and I'm not running any negative ads to effect the other archery manufacturers. I waited this past spring hoping Mathews would bring out a true lightweight and compact hunting bow, but they decided to build a speed bow with a very short brace height something most bow hunters don't really need!

If you're happy with your Legacy, stick with but just remember all those bow gimmicks on it add weight and is more stuff to go wrong. However,I know what bow I will be using on elk and whitetail this fall - an ultra lightweight Parker 31 !

Put your over-built, over- weight and over-advertised hunting bow on a diet - buy a Diamond or Parker! 

www.diamondarchery.com
www.parkerbows.com


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

You should all stop whining and buy a Merlin. I've heard the Max3000 is rocking. MY Quest 35 sends them like a bullet. 
Good shooting. 
Dylan


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

*give it a rest*

toxo has said it best, we all like what we shoot, its called confidence in our equipment. i dont agree agree with the whining or slams by some known companys. but when looking at new bows forget about name, (they all are good), go with what feels good and you will be confident in your bow. give it up on the ads, we all know they are false and are hurting some reputations.


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## Archeryboy (Feb 1, 2003)

Bowfever

I am now shototing a Mathews LX. I shot this bow for local and ASA tournaments. I shoot this bow with out a stablizer (IMO doesn't need one>no hand shock no vibration) I will be using the same bow for Hunting! I don't need to ad extra items to my bow to my bow because the LX (IMO) doesn't need it. The only thing I add is a sight! I have shot light weight bows, couldn't hold as steady with them. Each to there own!!!! 

As Mathews dealer I have never had any one from Mathews tell me or even imply that I should talk down another bow line to sell a Mathews. As far as the AD war between Mathews And Hoyt I see it this a way, It started with a star chart that showed that one cams are less forgiving than 2 cams and the cam & 1/2. I ask you BOWFEVER hows your one cam shooting, is it forgiving?

I sell bows this way( Shoot a Mathews bow go shoot any other brand and comapre them) 8 out of 10 times the customers come back and buys a Mathews! I can't speak for why other dealers need to knock other bows.

Take care and have fun shooting


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## northstar (Feb 25, 2003)

Since every opinion counts here.

This mathews Vs Hoyt crap is very childish in my opinion.
I just bought a mat, and went to shoot a Hoyt today.
Both bows are very solid, and feeel good.

Now Jennings is starting to slam mat from what the local dealer told me.

Ok thats all fine for a bunch of school kids, but what i want to know is if these people are going to grow up, and figure out that every archer out there is in it to shoot/hunt, and choose what fits them best?

My honest take if anybody cares is these people need to get over their PENIS ENVY, and grow the heck up!!!


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## bowfever (Jan 13, 2003)

*I Do Not Use A Stablizer On My Three Parker Utra-Lites Or My Diamond Stinger!!*

Archeryboy,
As you can see in the photo above I do not use any stabilizers on any of my three Parker Ultra-Lite bows or one on my Diamond Stinger either! No need as they shoot very smooth and quiet without them. Parker and Diamond build excellent hunting bows without all the unnecessary gimicks that add cost and weight and are more things to go wrong! We shoot them out to 60 yards and the bows shoot extremely well. 
Folks if my soon in law and I can shoot lightweight bows this well we feel almost certain almost anyone else should be able to as I have only been shooting a bow for about one year and he has been at it only a few short months. Try a compact bow with a more forgiving brace height you may be surprised and to top it off the speed with them ain't too bad either! 

Let me ask you Archeryboy who is paying for all those two page negative Mathews ads? I'll tell you who ... your customers what a shame! 

Put your over-built, overweight and over-advertised hunting bow on a diet buy a Diamond or Parker!

www.diamondarchery.com
www.parkerbows.com


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Why is it a shame if they use my money to advertize?????? I mean i paid no more for my bow than you or any other brand.So why should it bother me or you....


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## MQ1 (Feb 25, 2003)

Guys I wouldn't care if the bow I shot was pink with purple polka-dots and manufactured by a guy that was a little lite in the loafers. If I could hit what I was aiming at with it fling flam Sam I'd have one in my hand.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

If I was an archery dealer I would sell at least 2 brands of bows, Hoyt and Mathews. Many Mathews shooters I know are not huge fans of the way the Hoyts feel, and visa versa. Doesn't mean one's better than the other. Both are exceptionally well made machines, I could go over either with a fine tooth comb looking for faults and not find them. Like comparing a BMW with a Mercedes. 

Anyway who really cares, it's only a few months till the new models are released, lets start speculating on what they will come up with, where can any of these companies go that new and improved, seems almost impossible to me.


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## MrED (Jul 31, 2003)

Marcus said:


> *This is more dangerous than twin cams going out of time because your groups will move and you won't know till it's too late, I know exactly when my twins are out of time, I feel it straight away, and it has not happened on it's own with 450 Plus yet, but given my geographical location I draw my bow by the handle anyway.   *


Marcus, 
What do you think about 8125 for your strings?


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## Bruce (Apr 12, 2003)

In my opinion you people doing the slamming of whos bow is the best are acting like little kids.
If you like the sport as much as you claim you should stick together and not fight over who is doing what to whoever .
Because we as sportsmen need to stick together and protect what we have. There is a lot of antis out there who want to see are sprt gone .
As for the person that said that mattewes don't have timing markes yes thay do . thay are the two holes on the left hand side of the cam and to be in time thay need to be in line with string.



------------Hunt Hard and Hunt Safe------------------


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## Grndzer (Jan 17, 2003)

I honestly didnt know this post would cause this much Havoc or I would have donr it a long time ago, you guys are so brand loyal that the second someone talks sh*t on a mathews you jump to defend it.


Geesh... I had a mathews for a week and think it sucked so I sold it but I know guys that shoot Matts bows great, to each his own.

Did I mention Mathews sucks? LOL


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## Ozzy (Aug 6, 2003)

Having shot PSE's for years due to them having a distributor here in South Australia at the time, I got sick of all the American marketing bull**** & bought a Merlin (UK).
Then - I shot a ProTec 2000 c.5 & I was hooked ! 
I bought one, even at $1545 Aussie $
Hoyt are so good at taking an idea & making the most of it. 
These Tec c.5 bows are stunning!


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## Indychris (Sep 13, 2002)

*Adam B- WHAT???*

You obviously forgot the best manufactured gun on the market- KIMBER!


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## Bruce (Apr 12, 2003)

Grndzer most of us as archers don't care what you shot or what kind of bow any buddy else shoots.weather it be a hoyt matt. pse or what ever. Ithink we as archers are getting tierd of people slamming this bow or that bow Co. It seems to me you are not much of a sports person if you think it is funny to slam this Co. or that Co. I got news for you your bow is no better than the person next door. So I think you need to get a reality check and think about what you are saying . Because a bow is only as GOOD as the person behinde it.


NRA LifeMember
NAHC Life Member


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

AdamB, real bad analogy dude!

Mathews vs,. Hoyt? I might give you that one. Both great bows.

Ford vs. Chevy? You are joking right? Know how ford ext. cabs are made? I hook a chain to `em with my Chevrolet, and extend `em! 

Weatherby vs. SAKO? The only time a weatherby shows a tight group, is when I put one out at 400yds. and put a few into it from one of my Sako`s!


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Grndzer......Who is he kidding .....I seen his ICON...... ....Come on out of the closet we will only rag you for little while.... A Closet Mathews Owner....


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## Center Punch (Aug 18, 2003)

topin

How do you figure that hoyt is a 2 cam bow. I would just like to hear your reasoning. You must be an expertise engineer or something. It doesnt even matter. You know you like the hoyts so just get over it.


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

i remember an old guy i knew a long time ago and he said shoot what brung ya. makes sense to me and if your comfy with a certain bow then actually it shouldn't matter what anyone says. i have several bows mathews bows included and there are a couple of mathews bows that are okay in my book, and i have owned hoyt another great bow and a couple of them i like. i guess i am an old fart who believes it's not the shooter that sells it's the bow that sells. i shoot a run down old bow or did until this year and went witht he ar37 and haven't looked back.( not) i wish i had my old tbolt with me now as it is a great bow and the best selling bow in pse history and has sold more thna any other bow out and still is sold and is the longest lasting bow in the modern era meaning the 90's and more bows have been copied off of it including champion archery. but i do love the ar37. now being a man willing to try any bow at least once i am now working on a bowtech extreme solo 2002 model i haven;t heard any bad publicity on it and have heard great things about bowtech so i thought what the heck try one if i don;t like it then i will do some horse trading. a bow is a bow and they will out shoot us no matter what any of us think, and will show us up for sure if you put it in a hooter shooter and will consistantly bust up arrows and fletching where we as humans won't i don;t think there is any major company out there that makes a bad bow. the hype the lashing out against a company and trying to throw dirt out against them is not the way to do itand they still continue to lash out in their ads why? the bow is selling like hot cakes and nothign mathews or any other company will do to stop them. next year another member of the archery community will show uyp with something new and it will start all over again and heck i hear darton has improved their old cps system now and who knows maybe darton will be the winner next year. that is how close it coould be all and we are just bait for the archery companies and the one that shoots the best is what we will shoot
rob k


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

MrED said:


> *Marcus,
> What do you think about 8125 for your strings? *


Sorry MrEd have not looked at this thread for a while. 
I don't have an opinion. Looking at the specs of 8125 it has very low stretch. 450 has none. I am a believer in 0 stretch is best and thus I use 450 for my string and cables. No reason to change. 
However I see no reason why it won't work, the peep may not stay as still while it was shot in though. Cables though must be 0 stretch for me, even on Cam 1/2 and single cam.


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## Whack Master (Jul 14, 2003)

*Matt means sell it high*

Mathews has to sell a lot of bows and at a very high price just to pay for them 8 page ads in the hunting mags   I say shot what you like and don't follow the no brain crowd just to be like all the matt freaks out their Darton half the price and still kills a deer just as dead


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Very true Whackmaster but some people dont mind paying a bit more for that extra quality.


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## target x (May 27, 2003)

hoyt rules


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## savage1978 (Aug 31, 2003)

I WISH THEY WOULD GET IN A PRICE WAR. THAT IS WHAT WOULD HELP US. I AM PRETTY GOOD FRIENDS WITH A MATHEWS/HOYT DEALER. HE IS KINDA NEGATIVE ABOUT OTHER BRANDS OTHER THAN MATHEWS, BUT WHEN MATHEWS STARTED IN ON HOYT HE CAME UP TO THEIR DEFENSE SAYING THAT THE ADDS AR CRAP AND PROPAGANDA. HE IS GOING TO SHOOT A HOYT FOR INDOOR SEASON THIS YEAR TO SHOW HOW HE FEELS. ON A ANOTHER NOTE....ALL STRINGS STRETCH, ITS UNAVOIDABLE. ONE CAME BOWS HAVE 75% OF THEIR STRING ON ONE SIDE OF THE NOCK WHICH MAKES THE NOCK MOVE IN ONE DIRECTION MORE THAN THE OTHER. 2 CAM (CAM & 1/2 ALSO) HAVE EQUAL LENGTH OF STRING ON EITHER SIDE OF THE NOCK SO WHEN THE STRING STRETCHES THE TUNING PROBLEM IS LESS PERCEIVABLE. BOTTOM LINE......RE TUNE YOUR BOW AFTER THE STRING GETS BROKEN IN! WE DONT GRIPE WHEN WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE OIL IN OUR CARS......TUNING IS A PART OF ARCHERY AND THE TINKERING ASPECT IS FUN TOO. I AM ABOUT TO SAY TO HE11 WITH MATHEWS AND HOYT AND BUY A BOWTECH! I HAVE A PSE CARRERA NOW AND I WONT BE SELLING IT, JUST WANT A LONGER NEWER BOW FOR 3D SEASON COMING UP.


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## VAREBEL (Jan 5, 2003)

wouldn't it be nice if ALL bow companies spent their time filling orders in a timely fashion? why come out with new bows if people can't get them in a reasonable time?


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

Not to rain on the c.5 parade, but if everything is so great, how come they are going to drop it next year? Maybe cause they bogarted someones idea and got sued.
Not to be mean, but the whole idea was the basis of Hoyt's attack on mathews. Hoyt knew no one would buy a two cam and came out with this.
I do know what is next.....the cam and three quarters!!!!!!!!!!! Hoyt is the only one lame enough to try this and heck it would be funny!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Just out of morbid curiousity, where did get the info that Hoyt was dropping the cam.5 for 2004?

And, if they are so bad, why, for the first time in years are target records falling like autumn leaves?


Also, Hoyt knew no one would buy a two cam? Interesting!


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Hoyt*

I do not know where you get your info........but I can tell you from a VERY RELIABLE SOURCE.......THE CAM AND A HALF IS STAYING!!!!!


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Icon, I think you are a little off. You are the only one thinking the cam will be gone next year. As far as a law suit, Hoyt is paying royalties to Darton as they should. Two cam bows have been around for years and will continue to be around for many more. Me thinks you should check your facts before jumping in.
Big country, it is not the bow as much as it is the shooters. Every year that I can remember records have fallen. D. Price is still the only guy with 30Xs in Vegas, he did it with a two cam Martin. Was it the bow or the shooter???


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## savage1978 (Aug 31, 2003)

At my archery club here in west Texas I see alot of great shooters. It is my opinion that these awsome shooters and pros everywhere could make a bow out of an elm limb and whittle some arrows and still shoot great. Pro golfers can play well with cheap cheap clubs. I have a friend that is above average at things like golf, tennis, ping pong, basketball, volley ball, just about anything that requires coordination. I am trying to get him into archery........give him the fever cause I know he would be really good at it. My point is that some people are born with it and others have to work for it. Generally speaking , I think good shooters have shot lots of things in the past ...ie slingshots, bb guns, 22's, ect.... and have always been a good shot because they have a pssion for shooting. I'm sure equipment makes a difference, that it can give you a competitive edge, but if you can shoot with a 700$ mathews or bowtech or pse than you can shoot with a red fiberglass recurve from wal-mart and still hit your mark.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Ahhh, the good ole Barnett Diablo. Its a golpher popper. Just aim down the fork.


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## SPECTRE (Aug 20, 2003)

My screen name aside, both companies make excellent equipment. M does give away a lot of equipment. The #1 question I get in the shop is: "what's the best bow out there?"

Answer: the one that you shoot well. Still, I hate whining from either side. Unprofessional.

I still grin inside when I beat a Mathews shooter though. But I also grin inside whenever I beat anybody.

Y'all have fun no matter what you shoot. To me, that's what it's all about anyway.


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## va archery (Feb 17, 2003)

*re*

aman to that .


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## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

*tuning*

Harder to get back in tune, harder to get out of tune.


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## VICTOR (Sep 11, 2003)

archeryboy,
i see you know your stuff when it comes to mathews aND THE CAM & 1-2. IF THIS WAS SUCH A GREAT SYSTEM I ASSURE YOU THAT MATHEWS WOULD HAVE ONE ON THE MARKET. IF IT WAS NOT FOR MATT @ MATHEWS ARCHERY WOULD NOT BE WHERE IT IS TODAY. AT THE END OF EVERY HUNTING SEASON EVERYONE IS WAITING TO SEE WHAT MATT BRINGS TO THE TABLE FOR THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

IF THE CAM & 1-2 IS SUCH A GREAT BOW WHY AREN'T THE PROS WHO MAKE THERE LIVING IN 3D SHOOTING THE GREAT CAM 1-2

HAVE A GOOD DAY ARCHERYBOY


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Victor, I BEG YOR PARDON. You must be new to archery if you think Matt is why archery is is the way it is. He is the johny come latley. Guys like Fread Bear, Pete Sheply and many others are way ahead of Matt on the scale of archery leaders.


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## VICTOR (Sep 11, 2003)

I'M NOT NEW TO ARCHERY BUT I WILL REPLY IN A DIFFERENT WORDS. SINCE MATT HAS GOT INVOLVED IN ARCHERY THE INDUSTRY HAS TAKEN A BIG CHANGE. FRED BEAR, SAXON POPE AND A HUGE LIST OF OTHERS IS WHY ARCHERY IS WHERE IT IS TODAY. JUST WORDED IT THE WRONG WAY. I THINK IT IS FUNNY HOW MOST OF THE ARCHERY COMPANIES CANNOT INVENT SOMETHING ON THE OWN THEY JUST TAKE A NEW PRODUCT AND MAKE A CHANGE OR 2 AND SELL IT. I GUESS THAT IT WHY SOME MANY PEOPLE CALL IT THE RESEARCH AND COPY INDUSTRY. HOPE YOU HAVE A GOOD HUNTING SEASON AND SHOOT STRAIGHT


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## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

Joe

Leaders are out front. Bear, PSE, Hoyt, Pearson and Martin have all had their day out front in one way or the other. Fred had a winner when he was running the company as an archery company and not part of a conglomerate where the only thing that counts is the bottom line on the P&l Statement. Mathews has one owner and it seems that he wants to keep growning by producing a better product. In most cases the people that are knocking Mathews has never owned one or even shot one, they are following the leader with another brand which they can not afford to knock. Their are lots of companies out there but the one that keeps archery growing and making archers want more is the winner in my estimation. Five years from now the company that is still standing will be the winner and I'll put my money on Mathews.


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## VICTOR (Sep 11, 2003)

JOE,
YOU ARE100% RIGHT IN MY OPINION. MATHEWS WILL NOT BE GOING ANYWHERE BUT ON TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN. MATT MUST BE A GENIUS BECAUSE I HAVE HEARD HE IS COMING OUT WITH A AWESOME BOW IN JANUARY. BUT THAT IS ALL I HAVE HEARD.

GOOD LUCK HUNTING THIS YEAR


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

*matthews crap*

matthews might sustain its ranking somewhat, but alot of fans are rethinking after the whinning that came from leaders at matthews. hoyt is a leader and always will be, companies like martin and pse, will always be the innovators, long before and after matthews ever will. pete shepley has more patents then all the others combined, and he never whined about there sells or knock another company because his sells are down 30%. exspect the AR bows to go places. just so we are clear Hoyt is and will always be the rolex of this business.my 2nd chioce would be PSE or Martin, i have shot and would never look at anything Matthews has to offer.


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## VICTOR (Sep 11, 2003)

STEVE,


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## VICTOR (Sep 11, 2003)

STEVE,
MATHEWS HAS BEEN ON TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN FOR A WHILE NOW. IN YOUR OPINION WHAT DOES THE NEW AR LINE LOOK LIKE TO YOU? THEY ALL LOOK LIKE A MATHEWS TO ME!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD PETE COME OUT WITH A NEW LINE OF BOWS TO COMPETE WITH HIS OWN PSE LINE? THE BOTTOM LINE IS EVERYONE IT TRYING TO CATCH MATHEWS!, BUT NO ONE CAN OR SHOULD I SAY NO CAM & 1-2 CAN


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

You Mathews groupie pimps act like Mathews has taken over your whole being and has your soul by the short hairs.


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## VICTOR (Sep 11, 2003)

I DO NOT THINK WE ARE PIMPS. JUST STATING A FACT I GUESS THAT IS WHY WHEN I SHOT THE IBO WORLD,ASA WORLD 95% OF THE TOP SHOOTERS WERE MATHEWS. BUT I GUESS THEY SHOOT THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE BEST.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

sorry, maybe the term "working girl" is more appropriate.


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Gee, all this time I thought it took a person to shoot a bow. BTW, they can shoot anything good, it is not the bow but the money they recieve for contingency money. If another company offered more they would jump ship faster than a rat in a hurricane.


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## savage1978 (Aug 31, 2003)

If I were a pro I would shoot for what ever company paid the most because that is the means in which I would feed my family. 95% of tournaments are indeed won with a mathews because mathews pays the most. Mathews has an excellent product line. So does hoyt and PSE. And as far as copying is concerned....how many different ways can you build a bow?. It has a riser, excentrics, strings and limbs. All bows are functionally the same. Just because ford made the model T with a steering wheel does that mean that chevy copied them???? Bows and equipment are just like fishing lures, they are designed to catch fisherman not fish. Shoot what you like and leave other people alone! This bickering is poisoning the sport that I enjoy! Now I know where traditional shooters are coming from! Help eachother get their broadheads in tune and give eachother tips. Lets see where we can elevate our sport to and be more of a archery COMMUNITY!!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

VICTOR said:


> *archeryboy,
> i see you know your stuff when it comes to mathews aND THE CAM & 1-2. IF THIS WAS SUCH A GREAT SYSTEM I ASSURE YOU THAT MATHEWS WOULD HAVE ONE ON THE MARKET. IF IT WAS NOT FOR MATT @ MATHEWS ARCHERY WOULD NOT BE WHERE IT IS TODAY. AT THE END OF EVERY HUNTING SEASON EVERYONE IS WAITING TO SEE WHAT MATT BRINGS TO THE TABLE FOR THE FOLLOWING YEAR.
> 
> IF THE CAM & 1-2 IS SUCH A GREAT BOW WHY AREN'T THE PROS WHO MAKE THERE LIVING IN 3D SHOOTING THE GREAT CAM 1-2
> ...



Mathews will have a sticker that reads Endangered species next year.  

The Cam &1/2 will be sticking around. So will the Omega by Merlin. So will the CPS by Darton. 3 companies use it and not one of them has a single cam model anymore. I think that speaks volumes about Matts claims and bent truth about the cam & 1/2.

Make no mistake. Mathews has probably been hit hard this year in the sales category. By normal everyday joes going to something other then a single cam. 

Hybrid and Twin cams are here to stay. New string material means the single cam with is supremely long strecthing strings will fall in sales to the Doubles and Hybrids with less string and less stretch.

I believe alot of people have become alot more educated about this phantom subject that Matt McPhearson milked.

good shooting. 
Dylan


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Hoyt*

Funny ......I do not see Hoyt bashing Matt or Matthews. Ask any IBO Pro which company won the most this year. Some people havre to stoop low......others hold their head up. Take 2 metal barrels..hit them.....the one that is empty makes more noise. The one that is full makes almost no noise..People are like that also.


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## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

*Mathews and all archery*

I think that the real loosers are pleading their case to the best of their ability here on the net. It would be interesting to know where they come up with all these so called facts about these other company's rise and fall. But I guess that it is true that we do not have to respect their opinions but we do have to respect their rite to be ignorant.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

ICON300-60 said:


> *Not to rain on the c.5 parade, but if everything is so great, how come they are going to drop it next year? Maybe cause they bogarted someones idea and got sued.
> Not to be mean, but the whole idea was the basis of Hoyt's attack on mathews. Hoyt knew no one would buy a two cam and came out with this.
> I do know what is next.....the cam and three quarters!!!!!!!!!!! Hoyt is the only one lame enough to try this and heck it would be funny!!!!!!!!!!! *



How exactly is Mathews planning on keeping up next year, oh wise one?


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

*hoyt*

hoyts new slogan for 04 should be , we caught you,now keep up.funny how matt has to spend so much money on advertising to try to prove himself and their product, no other company has ever cried about others or spend so much on saying they are the best.think i would ever shoot a bow for a company who represents themselves on that fashion, they have alot of confidence in their bows, if they need to advertise in that fashion, I WOULD BE PROUD.


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## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

*Mathews and all archery*

I don't think that I have tried to put any other company's bow down. I do think that I can believe the Mathews ads much easier than the product knockers on this forum. Any company that is promoting their product has something to be proud of and at the same time they are promoting archery. Hoyt has a good product and some of the better shooters on the PRO tours but the fact that your product has to be conceived as the best is what really counts at the end of the year. The ads for both companys are based on the total dollars generated by sales which have a built in advertising budget. If a company does not use these dollars then they will be the loosers in the end, and I don't think that you will find many company's telling people that their competition has the best product. Get real you guys that think that you know more than the guy that is demonstrating his success not knocking his competition.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Well, I shoot a merlin. I have nothing against Hoyt or Mathews.
Mathews however needs to work on new innovation rather then advertisement. 

They aren't promoting archery with this childish advertisement. I had to see it first hand in a bowhunting magazine to realise it was an actual realistic, on the rack advertisement that anyone could read, bowhunter, archer or otherwise. 

JMO. 
Dylan


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## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

I am not a spokesman for Mathews or any other archery company but I must have missed the ad in question. I do recall last year on the IBO Forum one person that raised much to do about the Martin Girl being an offensive ad. He drew more attention to Martin Archery than the ad did. I'm sure that an ad agency is doing the Advertising for Mathews even if it is in house, I'm sure that they know what they are doing or at least it seems that way, it sure is getting some peoples attention. If it were an ad that was driving away potential customers I would say that it was worth changing however Mathews has had no spokesman say anything that I have been able to find other than they are backing up their claim in their ad. I don't think that it is worth a lot of effort, but it seems that Both companies have many people taking positions with no authorization or knowledge of the true technical findings.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Dylan I believe the two cams and hybrids were out long before Matt came around... ...But what makes you think the one cam is gone????..It to will be here for all that wants one.....And I still dont get how you guys call catching someone in a lie bashing....Now had it been Fred Bear himself that called a company out not have been by his side....To each his own...But for you guys that think Mathews is history keep dreaming..... ...Cause thats what I'll be shooting for the next ten years a new one every year...And has long as I care to shoot one Uncle Matt will make um.........


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

> Ask any IBO Pro which company won the most this year.


Since you mentioned the IBO...um, 2 out of 3 legs of the national triple crown were won by Hoyt shooters, the remaining leg and the world was won by Mathews shooters.

I don`t have a single problem with Mathews bows. In fact I own two of them, and really like them. That said, Mathews shooters should win the majority of the shoots, they have WAY, WAY more pros in their stable. That is not a bad thing at all, just fact.

I know some of you cyber shooters like to say that Mathews wins a kazillion shoots every year in the pro division. The fact is, there is only one heavyweight division...Mens Pro, period. You can only compare the top of the food chain.




> And I still dont get how you guys call catching someone in a lie bashing.


Please humour me here.......explain EXACTLY which part of the Hoyt ad was false.(a lie)

And don`t say level nock travel. Go play with one on a hooter shooter.

And don`t say timing issues. I have 6500+ arrows through a protec, without ANY change in performance marks, draw weight, or draw length.

Another thing to keep in mind is this....3-d, although it is my favorite venue for archery, is certainly NOT the only form of competition out there. Hoyt and Martin dominate just about every other form of archery there is.

How many records have tumbled this year by shooters using cam.5 technology? I lost count.

At the present time, for my shooting style, Hoyt makes the greatest bow in the world. I hope Mathews has something to match, or beat it next year. I think it is good for the sport. You can bet that all the major manufacturers are working overtime to come up with the next breakthrough.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

BC.....Yep I mean nock travel.... Seen it with my own eyes....Darton was waaaaaay for more level than the new Hoyt's...Heck even the 98 Mq1 was straighter than the new Hoyts.....Does that mean Joe bowhunter will know the difference?...Nope not at all......Its just not has staight has they claimed and Matt gets slammed for saying its not....Oh well thats already been beat to death..... ....And I really dont care just shoot what ya like and leave the reast alone....... ...


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

*matthews*

BC and LX, are smart guys, who have said it best, I like my Hoyt it shoots great, but cant knock Matthews also great bow. no reason for slamming any company, like BC said hopefully another company will set a new trend for 2004, this is what keeps all these companies selling bows, any bow that shoots good and gives us confidence in our equipment is a good bow.after all isnt that what we look for.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Bow , not shooter?*

I asked this before. Who and with what shot the first ever perfect indoor championship score? Was it the bow or shooter?


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

Terry Ragsdale 1200 Cobo Hall and 1200 Vegas PSE CITATION
Kirk Ethridge- 600 120x Martin Firecat XR NFAA NATIONAL
John Taylor 600 120x Pearson Classic (I think)NFAA NATIONAL

I think it is always a combination of the shooter with the right bow. Not all bows are created equal!


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## qkdraw (Sep 25, 2003)

Timing is everything, and nothing last forever,and... When it won't knock our nocks off anymore fix it! Matt, Billy, Tom...whoever just get out in the yard and shoot!  If the string stretches and the limbs get weaker and the humidity is not perfect ....I agree they are in it for the money, so am I. My work is not free. The business must MAKE contaversy so the interest stays alive. It is just like a carnival ...fun,loud,busy,challenging and alittle decieving. M and H and the rest of the companies want to find loyal customers with them. Some of those keep the wars going. I bet this Matt guy is sleeping well!


> For every action somthing happens


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

LX_Shooter said:


> *Dylan I believe the two cams and hybrids were out long before Matt came around... ...But what makes you think the one cam is gone????..It to will be here for all that wants one.....And I still dont get how you guys call catching someone in a lie bashing....Now had it been Fred Bear himself that called a company out not have been by his side....To each his own...But for you guys that think Mathews is history keep dreaming..... ...Cause thats what I'll be shooting for the next ten years a new one every year...And has long as I care to shoot one Uncle Matt will make um......... *



So, you'll be shooting a twin cam then?

To me having a enormously long string on a compound bow seems inferior. I think I will stick with the twin cams that i've always shot. 

They've never caused me a problem. 

You have fun and shoot your Mathews LX.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Terry Ragsdale*

Cobo Hall is right but the bow was a non center shot bow with wide nylon wheels no cable guard and going about 150 fps. He did it later with a citation but the first time was with a bow that the majority today would not even be seen with!!!!!!!


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## p8ntballnryan (Apr 5, 2003)

> Ahhh, the good ole Barnett Diablo. Its a golpher popper. Just aim down the fork.



sooo much fun! Did you shoot hte big bb's or the small ones?


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## silver24 (Jun 8, 2003)

What ever guy said a AR looks like a Matt is seeing something Im not, the AR looks nothing like any Matt ever made. To me there all great Bows In the past 12mos Ive had a CyberTec, SuperTec, UltraTec, SQ2, FX, Bowtech Pro40, Extreme Solo, Patriot, Kodiak Outdoors Ko32 (Wow! no wonder my wife shakes her head at me) The only reason I was able to have this many bows is because of the great people on this board to trade and buy from. Heres the Bows I kept- I hunt with the KO-32 wich is one of the most userfiendly, Best made bow on the planet. I use the Extreme Solo as back hunting bow and back up 3D Bow, And I use the Patroit for my main 3D Bow. The Hoyts are geat shooters but not fo me(The CyberTec was my favorite of the 3 Hoyts). Didnt like the SQ2 but I always seem to have a FX around I think its one of the best all around Bows ever made. Guys at the proshop and the hunt club ask me why I where a Matthews hat and have a Hoyt license plate holder and bowtech stickers on my truck I say thats easy they all make great bows and I like anything that slings a arrow.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Thats all?*

Rightnow I have 2 Prolines......3 Martin compounds, I Darton, 3 Pearsons, A Golden Eagle plus 2 Martin recurves, 2 Martin Longbows......2 Martin recurves.....A Bear Custom T/D .......a Samick T/D and a Bear Recurve.......HMMM what am I going to get next year? What is my favorite..........YOU WILL NEVER KNOW....i HAVE SPECIFIC USES FOR EVERY BOW.......AND i SHOOT EVERY ONE WITH FINGERS!!!!!!


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## paridgrunr (Oct 7, 2003)

*Re: Thats all?*



toxo said:


> *Rightnow I have 2 Prolines......3 Martin compounds, I Darton, 3 Pearsons, A Golden Eagle plus 2 Martin recurves, 2 Martin Longbows......2 Martin recurves.....A Bear Custom T/D .......a Samick T/D and a Bear Recurve.......HMMM what am I going to get next year? What is my favorite..........YOU WILL NEVER KNOW....i HAVE SPECIFIC USES FOR EVERY BOW.......AND i SHOOT EVERY ONE WITH FINGERS!!!!!! *


What??? No H or M  Can you really be into archery when you shoot these unnamed brands  ??? Would they be Prolines by Proline or Prolines by Darton? 

I myself happen to like Darton. Have shot one for over 30 yrs (can't be - I'm not that old  ) Have tried others but still like the feel and $$$. Like has been said before - shoot what feels best to YOU - not what someone else tells you is best.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*threads like this make me wonder.....*

how many note book manufacturers fought over which holes in the notebook paper they were going to use before they all agreed to sdandardize


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## coues (Sep 24, 2003)

Like many of you, I have owned several of each line mentioned. Personally, I could care less who's winning, and with what. Those guys make their living at shooting. They're going to shoot whatever puts the most change in their pocket and I don't blame them. 
It would be interesting to run a study with you guys who are the most adamant with your bow preference. Blindfold the shooter, place the top 5 bows in your hands WITH THE SAME GRIP, and see who can tell which is which. Accuracy doesn't count here because thats up to the shooter, not the bow.
I view Mathews ad as humorous. I don't feel like it's directed at me, or any other knowledgable shooter. Ford and Chevy have been slinging it at each other for a long time, and I bet none of us chose our truck based on the ads!


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## tomcat (Oct 23, 2003)

Here is my take on this whole affair, without over analyzing it too much.
Fact: Hoyt's sales are up 40%, Matthews and other single cam mfg's are down proportionally.
The myth that archers/hunters will remain loyal to a mfg "just because" is way overated as current sales stats are showing.
When something hits the market that has clear advantages, most of us see the light and at least get curious enough to check it out, maybe even buy one.

Fact: Matthews ads are obvously targeted at recovering these lost sales, by "directly questioning " Hoyt's honesty/credibility.
I have read no Hoyt ads claiming specifically HP cams etc are inferior or even suggest anything relational to Matthews at all. They clearly refer to "solo cams" as one cams generically, as in the industry, not matthews.

Fact: Matthews has lead the archery industry astray since day one with one cam technology, claiming no timing(which is false) maybe no synch but definitely had and still require more maintenance than your regular two cam setups.Common sense, 1 cable = twice the load = double the creep. thats why they had to come up with better materials resistant to stretch/creep. If the market was still using two cam bows we would all still be shooting fast flite.

Fact: Zebra strings(matthews) still require peep alignment tubing, no matter what was and is still claimed by them.

Fact: Matthews is the king of collecting statistics for marketing, such as how many wins etc. Hate to say this but, the archers win the tournament, not the bow's and the stats matthews uses are to convince buyers that matthews is best. i am certain you could put dave cousins in touch with a 10 year old high country bow and he would still shoot comparable to his level today.

Fact: matthews innovations have time after time fallen to the wayside, they claim they invented everything, they invented failing add ons which eventually dissapeared quietly, once these innovations were proven to have little effect on accuracy/performance.
Examples. Harmonic ballancer thingys, don't work near as effectively as PSE's NV, sims limbsavers,martin VEM etc.
Roller wheel cable guard - crap, enuff said.
"new" zero tolerance limb cups. lies, I can see the gap between the "rubber" and the limb in the photo, another example of "misleading the consumer"

Matthews bows are just like the ads they pound into every hunting magazine at 4 pages each all hype with arrows pointing at everything they have done to advance the archery industry, what a load of crap. They have added a bunch of "trinkets" to a riser and limbs as well as pockets that is far less advanced than the stuff they have bolted to it.
There are bows that had more innovate designs from early nineties/late eighties such as the onza by martin etc.

Matthews, invented nothing. Martin & Hoyt, even oneida have contributed more to the archery community that is still in use today than matthews could even claim they invented, and being matthews has been in business starting when? 
I ask you this...strip all the crap off your matthews and look at it, now carefully place all the "innovations" in your mind in a safe place, keep them there. Now look at the remainder of that bow,riser/limbs and grip etc. 1980's technology at best. Now remember all those trinkets, ok 5 years from now see if you can recall what they were cause they will be gone.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Fact you Do Not need peep tube....

Fact Mathews is spelled with one T.......


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

tomcat, how do you know for a fact that the Hoyt sales are up 40%? That number seems to me to be a bit high. I can see a company being up in sales, but that is extremem for any established company. Not saying you are wrong, but for that to happen that would mean that on average EVERY Hoyt dealer would have to be up 40% in sales, I can tell you that is not happing nation wide.


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## tomcat (Oct 23, 2003)

this is a common number from 2 separate dealers in my area...
They also noted that these would be higher throughout last year but the limiting factor was how far the new hoyts were behind in shipping and numerous sales were lost to other bows because of impatient customers etc.
No I do not have any statistical sales figures from both hoyt and mathews. For most of us we could go with the "figures" your local dealer states if you like.
Basically what i am saying is that Mathews archery has a "nasty" marketing dept, that has to continually attack the rest of the archery world, and in them doing so, the only thing they project is that they care more about recovering these lost sales, and they are willing to stop progress in the archery world by attempting to convince everyone that anything besides innovations from them are "false". The only problem is that the "secret is out of the bag" (to use one of thier slogans) and that too many people have shot the cam 1/2 and like it. The sad part is that, I will bet you they have to make one of thier own cam 1/2's you watch. Then that expose them for the hypocrites that they are...then who will be misleading. They play dirty pool and simply have an outdated product, instead of congratulating hoyt, they publicly have demonstrated thier imaturity, greediness, and how they have been the main culprit for taking archers down the 1 cam path to hell they started for thier own profit. 2 cams were in most peoples opinion just as good with about the same maint.
Getting 2 cams back to the market with better string materials is the wave of the future, wether or not it is the current design from hoyt or whatever, and marketed as cam and 1/2 or simply 2 cam, regular harness. Point is Mathews claim they invented this long ago..wrong again everyone had attempted thier own versions and Darton comes to mind as well as Martin. They simply didn't have the marketing dept to "push" this to people and people were not really ready for it either.
Of course all of this is speculation from my point, and I would love to see mathews go out of business, for 2 reasons, #1 they are the most false advertisers out there, and number 2 I am sick of thier 4 page ads of BS , which also leads to swayed reviews and product endorsements by magazines because of this.
Don't get me wrong, they make a fine product, and to each thier own, but why try to tear down anything new rather than just congratulate other mfgs on advancements, atleast for mathews they would be left with the option then to produce a 1/2 cam without eating their own words...


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

tomcat, first I would take what the two delears tell you with a grian of salt. No dealer in the country is going to tell the general public, friend or not, what goes on with their sales. I am not going to get into what companies do for advertising vs. another. Most advertising I read or see by major companies is off base to make the product look like superman culd not hurt it, that's part of big company marketing, don't lie but mislead. It reminds me of the old army T.V. spots, "We do more by 5 AM than most prople do all day", what they didn't say is "We get up so fricken early that we have to get up before we go to sleep". The one thing I see is that Hoyt has the world believibg the 1.5 was their brain child. Most hunters have no idea that it is a Darton cam modified.


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## tomcat (Oct 23, 2003)

very true, I am just happy to see the technology return to something more compatible with the current materials we have for strings/cables, and I definitely believe first hand that although the cables can be twisted out of whack and performance may be affected, the cam.5 concept is more tolerant of stretch than both 1 and reg 2 cams. To further enhance this, winners choice strings matched with cam.5 makes for an awsomely consistent rig...between shoots as well as hunts.
That is a win/win situation for the archery world.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Facts*

I attack no one but to look at thefacts of any Mfgrs claims in person and see if it is honest. I ask any of you out there to do to a Hoyt what Matthews said.....put one cam on the short side the other cam on the long side and tell me if it matches what Matthews showed in their ads.....We did and it looked nothing like the picture.....try it and let me know.


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## JayBuck (Oct 3, 2003)

I Think Mathews makes the best hunting bow hands down! Noting is more queit in the woods then a mathews. And please if you are going to bash them for goodness sakes spell Mathews right!!!


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## Whack Master (Jul 14, 2003)

*Mathews*

You sure can tell the brain washed Mathews boys if mathews said the sun come up in the west these guys would probably believe them


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## JayBuck (Oct 3, 2003)

No mathews "Boys" just love there bows! whats wrong with that??. They make a top notch bow...has nothing to do with what they say its how they shoot!!


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## jbhunter (Oct 25, 2003)

*Grow Up*

This is my first post on this website. I feel like I am in gradeschool again fighting over which superhero is the best. Let's grow up. It is pointless to debate which bow manufacturer is better. I don't really care what Joe Bob thinks bout my bow manufacturer. He can piss off if he doen't like it. All I care about is that I have a bow that I feel comfortable shooting and a bow that will fill my freezer with meat. Let's drop this discussion and talk about something more productive.


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## va archery (Feb 17, 2003)

*ya*

AMAN BROTHERS.shut up and shoot what you brought.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Buying shoes*

I tell people ALL THE TIME to buy what feels right....period. NO MATTER WHAT THE COST ....300.00 OR 900.00 IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!!!! I am not putting Mathews down just looking for honest advertising . I think every body wants that, no matter what the company. Jennings says,"Dare to compare." That is all I am saying. I just ask people to question EVERYBODIES CLAIMS!!!!......I DID NOT PUT MATHEWS DOWN OR INTEND TO.I always tell people to shoot what feels best whatever they can afford. A dead deer does not know if you paid 299.99 or 899.99 for your bow or if it was hit with a cedar shaft or 149.99 carbons.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

A dead deer does not know if you paid 299.99 or 899.99 for your bow or if it was hit with a cedar shaft or 149.99 carbons.



AMEN!!!!!


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## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

It is really funny how many experts there are here on the Mathews archery company who don't have the ability to shoot anything but their mouth. One thing that is outstanding about most of the these anti Mathews people is that while they are busy knocking the most succesful archery company of the last ten years, Mathews is moving forward and doesn't know that most of them even exist, or even better yet they don't care. All of this information that they are spreading is being misdirected here on the net when it should be sent to the other archery companys so that they can sue for false advertising where applicable. The reason that Mathews does'nt say much about this kind of negative publicity is that the people that you can believe making this trash talk help Mathews try to catch up on production because the sales keep burying them. All of these companys are good archery companys or they won't be around very long. It would seem that the anti M people would try to find a different drum to beat or at least spend a quarter to call somone who may believe you or even care. Instead of my bow is better than yours, lets start a "my score is better than yours" which will give meaning to something you do and say.


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