# So what is the "Worst thing to happen in ARCHERY"?



## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

I'd suggest...THE COMPOUND BOW.

Think on it a moment. Yes the compound is better for hunting. But what was happening in archery before the compound was introduced and what happened after.

To start, before the compound, archery was the NUMBER 1 most popular family sport in the USA. Archery was the NUMBER 1 fastest growing family sport in the USA.

Why? I can remember being a kid and when men went to their local sportsman's club to pracitice they brought along their kids and their wives. It didn't take long until the whole family was shooting.
Mom and the kids would shoot their target gear and dad shot his hunting bow. Then dad would end up moving to a target bow and you had the whole family shooting.

Dad wanted to shoot because he had to practice to be good enough to hunt with some hope of hitting what he was shooting at. Bow hunters hunted not only deer but usually also many forms of small game. You hunted the small game to be able to scout out for hunting deer season.

After the introduction of the compound, shooting to practice started to deminish. Then the compound was merged with the release aid (which was used prior to the compound coming on the scene.)
Practice became even less valuable. Archery went from the fastest growing family sport in the USA to the nitch it is today. Today after 30 years, archery has for the most part in the USA become something dad does for a few dozen arrows. Making sure the sight wan't bumped when the compound bow was stored from last years hunting. 

"Yup, I can still hit a plate sized group. I'm all ready for Monday. Opening day of deer season."

I wonder what archery would be today if the compound had been determined to be a "mechanism" instead of a bow with most/all state Fish & Game departments. Being consider not a bow would have excluded it from what became it primary use. Hunting

Your thoughts? 

My best,

Tom


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

If you're going down that road, the release made compound shooting much easier. Not the early ones (I still have some bad memories from using a Ledge) but by the time releases became mass market the average shooter didn't have to do too much to hit the pie plate. Practice became less necessary and then.......3-D and the long decline of target shooting.


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## Waknstak6 (Dec 27, 2008)

Marketing products.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I would have to agree with you. The kids in our JOAD that start out on compound, rarely stay with it, and have the worse form/punch the trigger etc,. They reach a level of hitting the target quickly, with said worse form and soon get bored with it and dont come in that often. The recurve starters we have tend to stay with it as its harder to master and takes longer. The curve is much slower, but more rewarding when they attain each new pin. At our range, the JOAD recurve shooters far outweigh the JOAD compound shooters. We are very happy currently with the turnaround, even though the majority of the adults shoot compound. But our adult recurve shooters are growing in numbers. We are looking forward to this trend continuing. 

Of course Hunger Games has really helped bring in the young ladies, and promote the recurve. Im just glad she didnt shoot a compound in that movie.


Chris


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

massman said:


> So what is the "Worst thing to happen in ARCHERY"?
> I'd suggest...THE COMPOUND BOW.
> 
> Think on it a moment. Yes the compound is better for hunting. But what was happening in archery before the compound was introduced and what happened after.
> ...


I don't think the compound bow killed off archery as a sport. I think you are conflating correlation for causation. I could say that "before disco archery was the number one most popular family sport", but that doesn't mean disco killed archery (And I'd like a citation to the number one claim, not that I don't believe it, but I'm curious as to exactly when that was the case, for how long, and how the numbers compared to other sports--and how small a class is "family sport"? Bowling, lawn darts and archery?) I think archery became less popular because people had other stuff to do. All sports are subject to waxing and waning interest levels. We've seen archery wax and wane before, back in the 17 and 1800s, and there were no compound bows back then to blame it on.


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

Gunpowder.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

gma said:


> Gunpowder.




You win an internet!

I think the crossbow would also be high on the list.


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## valastroa (Sep 20, 2010)

Archery Talk...

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


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## twistedmetall (Aug 3, 2012)

gma said:


> gunpowder.


 amen!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

In my view, this entire thread is extremely counterproductive to archery.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

massman said:


> To start, before the compound, archery was the NUMBER 1 most popular family sport in the USA. Archery was the NUMBER 1 fastest growing family sport in the USA.


Out of curiosity, I'm wondering how this was measured. 

For instance, what is the current most popular family sport for participation in the USA today? How about over the last 10 years? How would you possibly measure that? Headcount? Family Count? Money spent?

Youth baseball is massive, but Mom doesn't play on the same team. Same for soccer, football, etc. NASCAR is a family outing, but the family minivan doesn't get a spot in the starting grid.


I would bet (having no hard numbers) that most family-based sporting activities like shooting sports, bowling, skiing, horse competitions, etc all suffered in the 70s and into the 80s as the demographic shift pushed more people toward individual activities and away from family-unit based activities. 

And many other distractions arose to fulfill/cause the new drive for individual instead of family activity. (1972, 1977, 1985) The compound bow can't possibly have caused -all- of those things...

It's not as though keeping all archery difficult would have retained -more- people in target archery than have been retained.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I started on a Matthews Genesis when my kids joined the NASP archery team at their school. Now I'm deep into the thousands with stickbows of all types. One son graduated to a regular compound, the other shoots a Hill longbow. So, in a way, I'm indebted to the compound for getting me into the sticks. (I've shot a release compound four times in my life ... into the ten ring at twenty yards each time ... found the sights and machinery to be boring ... I'd rather miss with my woodies!)

Some have speculated that electronic keyboards killed the interest in regular pianos. I maintain that one will gravitate towards what is ultimately desired. Technological advance merely allows for more stepping stones along the way. Perhaps the sheer variety of equipment engages even more people than would ordinarily take up a hobby. 

The current backorder problem with entry level archery equipment would seem to indicate an increased interest in archery as we speak. No stats to back up this observation, but obviously the archery suppliers got caught off guard this year. As Warbow points out, there is a waxing and waning afoot!


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

Thin Man said:


> I maintain that one will gravitate towards what is ultimately desired. Technological advance merely allows for more stepping stones along the way.


Sounds right to me. 

When technology causes a change, the desire for the change was already in place. The tech isn't usually the problem. To be fair, it's usually not the solution, either...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Urbanization and the legal system has had more of an affect on archery than the compound ever could.

More and more and more people live where they have no place to safely shoot a bow. And fewer places are open to the idea of archery than before. Gone are the days you could shoot at a city park or a vacant lot without being proned out by the local swat team.

It's not because people don't WANT to shoot. It's because they have no place to do it.

Archery is still considered "very cool" even by the cool kids. Trust me, when I shoot balloons at 70 meters for high school kids, even the coolest among them admit that archery is cool. But where are they going to go shoot?

Yes, I admit that students that begin with a recurve tend to stay with the sport longer, but it's the rush to suburbia that's affected our sport more than any other single thing.

John


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Personally, I don't like compound bows any more than some of you like baiting or hunting deer with dogs. Real hunters shoot real bows and compounds are machines that launch arrows...they are NOT bows. I'm going to start lobbying my congressman to get some laws passed against these arrow launching machines. If I can't bait, you don't get 60% let-off.
BTW, the cross-bow has been around an awful lot longer than the compound...but, of course, you knew that.


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> Personally, I don't like compound bows any more than some of you like baiting or hunting deer with dogs. Real hunters shoot real bows and compounds are machines that launch arrows...they are NOT bows. I'm going to start lobbying my congressman to get some laws passed against these arrow launching machines. If I can't bait, you don't get 60% let-off.
> BTW, the cross-bow has been around an awful lot longer than the compound...but, of course, you knew that.


This will work wonders in an industry that needs more exposure as opposed to restrictions! Some of us have no real interest (I am curious and may end up with one soon) in stick bows so you'd loose a large portion of shooters, try hosting a 3d shoot with just traditional shooters and see how long that club lasts in the 21st century.


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## ArcherFletch (Jul 8, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Urbanization and the legal system has had more of an affect on archery than the compound ever could.
> 
> More and more and more people live where they have no place to safely shoot a bow. And fewer places are open to the idea of archery than before. Gone are the days you could shoot at a city park or a vacant lot without being proned out by the local swat team.
> 
> ...



I agree with this guy... I am constantly on the lookout for places to shoot, in a very suburban environment that's hard to do safely.


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## EABB (Sep 23, 2012)

MGF said:


> Personally, I don't like compound bows any more than some of you like baiting or hunting deer with dogs. Real hunters shoot real bows and compounds are machines that launch arrows...they are NOT bows. I'm going to start lobbying my congressman to get some laws passed against these arrow launching machines. If I can't bait, you don't get 60% let-off.
> BTW, the cross-bow has been around an awful lot longer than the compound...but, of course, you knew that.


The traditional bow is also a machine that launch arrows, if you don't like machines, then start throwing arrows whit your bare hands. Whit that out of my mind, to my point:

The lack of practice venues and lack of high profile marketing is probably the reason that archery is not as popular as it should be, and the compound bow, if anything, have made the sport more popular. Shooting a FITA round 50m whit a compound is as challenging than shooting 70m whit a recurve, shooting "good" might be faster and easier whit a compound, but shooting top scores is equally challenging, the difference being a)Compounds require a much higher score to really start being competitive and b) a bad arrow in compound means you are out of competition since the scores are almost always so tight is a matter of X's more than a matter of points, whereas on a recurve whit a bad arrow you still have the chance to recover a bad shoot whit consistent good shooting.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Limbwalker speaks a truth. 

I would add to this that there also exists a growing bias against weapons within the general society ... mainly towards guns, but leaking towards the periphery to include anything that can be used as a weapon. As we urbanize, we "de-survival" a bit, and the grocery store takes the place of the utility of a weapon to produce food. Likewise, organized law enforcement reduces the perceived need for self-protective skills in the urbanized setting. We ride in cars, not on horses, and the trail-side ambush is diminished in the cultural thought (though still very real in a variety of ways). 

Many schools disallow the artistic rendering of any form of weaponry at all. 

My dad and his buddies shot cigarettes out of each others mouths with rifles within the city limits (legally!) where I grew up. We would later go to quarries on the outskirts of town to target shoot with rifles and pistols. 

Now I have a massive archery backstop in my backyard and hope the neighbors maintain their patience. They are aware and seem content, but one never knows when the desist order will come. 

Otherwise, as Limbwalker points out, it's a tedious and costly trek across town for a casual fling of the arrow.

Oddly, the concussions and broken bones continue with ever-increasing fervor every Friday night at the local high school stadium ... while my boy's archery team remains self-funding and relegated alternately to the gym between basketball practices and the long-trek archery shop.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Urbanization and 'no place to shoot' .....

John, I agree that the lack of 'supply' of archery venues has dramatically curtailed the 'demand' by the general public. But reading your comment gave me an idea - why wouldn't it be a good idea for bowling alleys to include some archery lanes on one end or the other, separated from the bowling lanes by plexiglass (A happy coincidence is that the bowling lane is 60'). It would just be 'additional revenue' for bowling alleys - they're open anyway; the staff is there anyway; maybe they could encourage a biathlete type category of a participant skilled at both archery and bowling, with combination competitions (archery events to precede the bowling events, as a nod toward the requisite beer consumption that usually attends bowling, even in tournament play  ). The investment would be minimal. Of course, it would probably only interest bowling alleys that are not usually full - can't imagine that a busy lane isn't more profitable as a bowling lane than as a shooting lane. 

Interestingly, this wiki entry about bowling describes a quasi similar historical timeframe for wax and wane patterns in bowling as well as archery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-pin_bowling ). 

Warbow, disco didn't kill off archery, but I'm pretty sure it did kill off 'camp town races' back in the late 1800's.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

think there is a lot of truth in every reply. TY.

So understanding that there is an impact with the compound bow, shooting venue's and the general polulation's misconceptions...

What can be done? I do not see ay national authority NAA, NFAA or anyone else tackling these issues. How can we get this done?
How can we ge local authorities to provide resources as they do for other sports? Irecently went to a youth footbal game at my local high school
Ref's phoyographers. Most likely thousand spent for about 200 youth to play football. Great.. but what about another sport?

Archery in the schools was/is a good first step. But there needs to be more...

Add to this I also see where those running the sportsman's clubs in my area do not realise how they contribute to keeping people away. Instead of bring in people. Case in point is MOUNTS. My local club hasa number ofmounts on the walls. Please I used to hunt. But most families do not want to see this.

Regards,

Tom


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## LJOHNS (Dec 14, 2004)

Good point - our local high school in nowhere WV just spent almost 1 million on a new football field - yes just the turf! Oh yeah they have lost every game but two this year. Too bad some of that cash doesn't get spread to academics, arts, and archery!


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

LJOHNS,

Gee you got off cheaply.

We're building a new HS. Had to build rather than refurb to get state funding. So for some reason the tear up the parking lot, lower the field leve bu 4 feet, Build a new field with running track. Bleaches on either side, Concessions, A field house & 4 new tennis courts. Frankly an excellent facility. But it had to be done and included to get the state funding.

Cannot get archery even discussed. Good old Mass.

Tom


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

valastroa said:


> Archery Talk...
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


this and the OP's intent.


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## SpiritArcher (Aug 18, 2011)

Wow. I can't believe what I am reading here. The compound bow is the worst thing to happen to archery? I thought I was reading posts from the AT Crossbow Forum and had to remind myself that I was in the target archery forum. 

An early post in this thread described the compound bow as a "machine." Well...let's take a look at this for a second. Webster-Merriam Dictionary defines "machine" as "an assemblage of parts that transmitt forces, motion, and energy one to another in a predetermined manner." So, by definition, yes, the compound bow is a machine. However, if you look at a target recurve (riser, limbs, arrow rest, clicker, bow string, stabilizers, and sight), a traditional recurve (riser, limbs, bow string), and if you go as far back as the English War Bow (made from a single piece of yew and a bow string), you will see that they all types of bows meet the definition of a "machine." So, if you are going to ban compound bows because they are machines, you may as well ban all archery equipment.

I don't see a decline in the popularity of archery as a sport. In fact, as an archery club executive and as a coach I have seen the exact opposite. I have seen an explosion in interest in our sport. In fact, was Brady Ellison not treated like a bit of a rock star / celebrity at the London Games? 

Throughout history, participation in our beloved sport has ebbed and flowed. I am certain that the current popularity due to the exposure in popular media will cool off eventually too. 

Why isn't target archery as popular as other forms? Marketing, plain and simple. The bowhunting community is a marketing juggernaut with nearly half a dozen magazines devoted to it in North America alone. It is not suprising that most new archers are going to be drawn to the sport because it gives them an extended hunting season and nothing more.

In terms of it being easier to shoot a compound? Not neccesarily true. The size of the 10 ring for compound at 18 m is about the size of a quarter and it takes a lot of practice to hit that 10 ring consistantly. The amount of work a high performance compound archer puts into developing and maintaing good shooting form and a near flawless release is tremendous. Archers such as Reo Wilde shoot at a minimum 200 arrows per day to maintain a high level of precision. 

Just my two cents.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Ironically, the decline in archery in the US may correlate with the re-introduction of archery into the Olympics. I think a lot of factors have led to the decline, as mentioned by folks above, including urbanization, alternative activities, and the cyclical nature of people's interests. But I wonder if the Olympics actually reduced interest in archery by making archery follow FITA conventions?


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi, I started my archery experience with a recurve bow 25 years ago, I then switched to a compound bow having used
at least 5-7 different brands and models. However my first love was recurves so 5 months ago I decided to sell all
my compound equipment and started Olympic Style shooting. I believe the compound bow helped the archery scene
in the US and Europe more than any other factor. True, Marketing had a lot to do with it but the availability of so many
different models and brands, The let-off feature. adjustability of draw length in the cams made it very desirable, not to
even mention the hunting advantage it has with its speed. Americans have always had ups and downs with sports
that are not team oriented but that is the nature of our culture and I doubt if it will change. I-pads will be traded in
for XYZ gizmos 10 years from now. I am 72 years old and have never had more fun than shooting my Recurve bow and
will continue to do so. All forms of archery are beautiful to watch and participate in. Regards
Norman2
PS. I still think the compound is easier to tune and to shoot. i wish limbwalker would chime into this thread as his views
are very wise and objective. If I lived near him he would be my coach.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Warbow Said.....
conflating correlation for causation.

WHAT?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Norman2 said:


> PS. I still think the compound is easier to tune and to shoot.


And therein lies the rub, how much challenge do you want? Archery provides a wide range of challenge, from primitive bows to compound bows with 80% let off and mechanical releases, from a stick with a string to a high tech carbon fiber machine with cams, vibration dampeners, inertial stabilizers and sights. Each archer gets to choose what appeals to them.

All sports are about doing something the hard way--if I just wanted arrows in an X-ring I'd walk up to a target and tap them in with a mallet. Archery is about getting them there the hard way.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ArtV said:


> Warbow Said.....
> conflating correlation for causation.
> 
> WHAT?



It means that just because two things happen around the same (correlation) time doesn't mean that one caused the other to happen (causation).

Long hair became popular in the 70s and, it seems, archery became less popular. So, does that mean long hair caused a decline in the popularity of archery? No. Same goes for the popularity of compound bows. Just because they were introduced at a time when the popularity of archery seems to have declined doesn't mean that their is a causal relationship between the two.


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

Warbow said:


> And therein lies the rub, how much challenge do you want? Archery provides a wide range of challenge, from primitive bows to compound bows with 80% let off and mechanical releases, from a stick with a string to a high tech carbon fiber machine with cams, vibration dampeners, inertial stabilizers and sights. Each archer gets to choose what appeals to them.
> 
> All sports are about doing something the hard way--if I just wanted arrows in an X-ring I'd walk up to a target and tap them in with a mallet. Archery is about getting them there the hard way.


Hi Warbow, Right on. That is why I changed to Olympic Recurves. The correct reason was the challenge. You are so right. Thanks
Norman


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## itsthewoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Warbow said:


> It means that just because two things happen around the same (correlation) time doesn't mean that one caused the other to happen (causation).
> 
> Long hair became popular in the 70s and, it seems, archery became less popular. So, does that mean long hair caused a decline in the popularity of archery? No. Same goes for the popularity of compound bows. Just because they were introduced at a time when the popularity of archery seems to have declined doesn't mean that their is a causal relationship between the two.


That's not the appropriate use of the word "conflating." Conflating means you're combining two ideas into one. You mean to say that he's "confusing correlation with causation."


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itsthewoo said:


> That's not the appropriate use of the word "conflating." Conflating means you're combining two ideas into one. You mean to say that he's "confusing correlation with causation."


I think your correction is half right in this case. People often conflate correlation and causation as if they are one. So it is appropriate to use conflate. However, I wrote "I think you are conflating correlation for causation." In that specific wording, you are correct, I should have used "confused".


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## itsthewoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Warbow said:


> I think your correction is half right in this case. People often conflate correlation and causation as if they are one. So it is appropriate to use conflate. However, I wrote "I think you are conflating correlation for causation." In that specific wording, you are correct, I should have used "confused".


I suppose you're correct. They could be conflating it if they don't see the difference. Anywho, I don't think most of the forum cares so much about proper word usage as we do, haha!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itsthewoo said:


> I suppose you're correct. They could be conflating it if they don't see the difference. Anywho, I don't think most of the forum cares so much about proper word usage as we do, haha!


 I think that one is 100%.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Seems most of us no doubt have facilities initially organized and funded by hunt clubs and that means gun and compound bow hunters. I can't help but think we are hugely indebted to those who vigorously exercise their 2nd Amendment rights for hunting and sport shooting. If it weren't for them we would probably need rubber cups on the end of our arrows. 

Perhaps there will be some incentive to build recurve facilities with the likes of Katniss and now the "Arrow", but will someone please show me how to nock an arrow from back-quiver to string in one fluid non-stop motion? Darn that's cool (insert roll-eyes here).


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Here you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
Though I think she is shooting about 15#.
ECL


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> Perhaps there will be some incentive to build recurve facilities with the likes of Katniss and now the "Arrow", but will someone please show me how to nock an arrow from back-quiver to string in one fluid non-stop motion? Darn that's cool (insert roll-eyes here).


No problem, SP:








Edit: 
bobnikon beat me to it by a minute!!! Doh!


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Hey Warbow seems like "great" minds think alike.


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## aaronthesun (Oct 13, 2011)

As a target compound archer who is hopeless at recurve, the OP's remarks are really disheartening. I probably would have stopped shooting a while ago if not for the fact that I absolutely love compound. 

I do think there is a much greater physical challenge for recurve shooters but when everyone in compound division shoots near perfect groups and scores the pressure to compete is intense and provides a challenge of its own. 

While my opinion might differ from the purists who say that archery should only be olympic recurve or barebow traditional, and that compound archers aren't true competitors, I think the sport should be as open and inclusive as possible. 

Just my two cents.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Compound bows have a mixed effect. Plenty folks shoot because of them but so do plenty of numb skulls.

Shoot, work, shoot!


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I would like to apologize to SpiritArcher for my loose usage of the word "machinery" in reference to my comments about the compound bow. I was pointing out my preferences towards the stickbow, and certainly did not mean to malign another person's tastes towards the compound. I agree with the "machine" definition and should have phrased my remarks with more precision.

I support and appreciate any and all projectile hurling mechanisms (including the old "rubber band off the finger in math class" trick) and understand the personal tastes involved with the selection of a device that will bring satisfaction to the user. 

(Did you know that, when you take off the slide, a trombone lead pipe makes a most marvelous and accurate spitball shooter?)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've thought about this for a while, and I have the good fortune of having experience shooting alongside some of the best archers in the world, of every dicipline.

Here's what I have learned: Every dicipline, whether it be barebow, recurve or compound, is equally as difficult as the other if the goal is to compete at the highest level. In other words, different people simply choose to challenge themselves in different ways, but that doesn't mean the challenge is any less.

I can assure you that the top barebow archers are just as serious, train just as hard, and are just as tough competitors as the top recurve archers, and both are as competitive as the top compounders. It's great that in our sport, we have an avenue for every interest - from primitive equipment to the most sophisticated. But the competition has never changed.

Along with urbanization, one of the greatest threats to archery is the same as any other outdoor sports. We have a whole generation (maybe two by now) that do not think about going outdoors to recreate or to compete. And in my line of work, that's just depressing.

John


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## agillator (Sep 11, 2011)

The worst thing to happen in archery? That's easy: It's its recent surge in popularity. We now have less access to our instructor, less access to ranges, overcrowded JOADs no longer worth attending, all without a single new archery shop or new shooting venue. Of course if you are an instructor, archery shop owner/employee, or equipment manufacturer this probably seems good to you. 

I'm actually very grateful for compound archers-- One of the best local (and free) ranges is maintained by a club the vast majority of whose members are compound shooters.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

bobnikon said:


> Here you go.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
> Though I think she is shooting about 15#.
> ECL



Wow!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I agree. My post was a little on the sarcastic side. I don't have any problem with compounds but I don't have any problem with baiting either.

It is harder to find places to shoot but it's also harder to find good places to hunt. A reasonable chance of success helps keep people interested and different people enjoy different aspects of the sport.


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## Mikej45 (Dec 2, 2007)

Archery decline is not new, - A long time ago, a Scotish king outlawed playing Golf, because people were playing too much Golf and not practicing Archery enough.
good shooting.
Mike.


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

I can see not being to have archery in a park, but in an empty parking lot at a strip mall? C'mon that's just sad. Who the HELL are you going to hit in an abandoned strip mall? Thin Man, CAN they call the pigs and have them tell you to stop doing Archery in your OWN back yard? Is that even possible? If one of my neighbors told me to stop doing archery, I would tell them to F-off and mind their own business.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

ArtV said:


> Warbow Said.....
> conflating correlation for causation.
> 
> WHAT?


confoundingly, constantly creating ceaseless conflict seems to be his only cause.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"Pigs" ??? What? Is it 1969 again, 'maaaaaan'?

My favorite remembered slogan from that era was something along the lines of "If you hate police, the next time you get mugged call a hippie." :mg:


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

I would completely disagree with compounds ruining archery, and to me that doesn't make sense at all. It may be "easier" to hit the 10 ring or x, but that the same time, it is by far harder not to miss. You shoot a recurve, and it is acceptable to drop point after point after point after point... You miss 1 in most of the compound divisions and you have no chance. So although it may be easier in practice and when relaxed, if I know I can drop 20 or more points in a tournament and still win.. how could that be harder? I have frequently shoot with a number of recurve archers, and I can give the same arguement as the second or third poster stated. The come in and their form stinks, just like some that shoot compounds. Maybe instead of stating that compounds have ruined archery, there should be more instructors that know how to teach better form.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

What I do not read people considering is that archery in the past (60's) was a FAMILY recreation sport. When it became easier for the AVERAGE archer (not those seeking excellence...not even your average target archer ) to hit what he was aiming at, the time needed to practice deminished greatly. -- SO there was no need to include the family in practice. So family recreation in archery deminished greatly.

In this way you loose generations to other activities and it's very difficult to recover. Funny that a movie would help so, I do not remember such a bump when RAMBO came out...

How about talking about how we keep the ball (so to speak) rolling?

Regards,

Tom


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## itsthewoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Whether or not the compound bow caused a decline in archery doesn't change the fact that compound bows are here to stay. I think it's an interesting thought experiment to point out that people tend to get more complacent with compound because of the ease of forming tight groups, but simply pointing that out isn't going to cause an influx of new archers for any of the disciplines.

I, personally, prefer the challenge and "zen" of recurve archery. However, even Olympic-style archery involves using a bunch of gadgets and doohickeys in order to get better groups.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

I have had the opportunity to speak with several senior people at Hoyt over the years and one thing that was conveyed to me was how the tables are turned here in the US. In many countries the recurve and compound popularity and availiability are reversed. Many of these countries hunting is a extreme luxury and in other compounds are not easily available for various reasons. Athough I'm a die hard Olympic Shooter, I feel that 'WE" as a nation are very fortunate to have wat we do.


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## SpiritArcher (Aug 18, 2011)

I realize that my post may have sounded a bit biased because I compete in the compound division but I come at this from a bit of a different perspective. I presently own and shoot regularly 6 bows - a compound set-up for target; a compound set-up for 3D and Field; a traditional recurve; a longbow; an Olympic recurve; and a yumi (Japanese longbow). My compounds I shoot for competition; my trad bows for fun; my Olympic recurve to keep up mys skills because its what I use to teach beginners; and my yumi for personal growth as part of a form of moving meditation known as Kyudo. For me, each of these weapons, despite their distinct differences, are the same. The shot process is the same; the muscloskeletal requirements to shoot them are the same; and the discipline required to shoot them well is the same.

The archery club I belong to has a mandate to support archery in all its forms. As a result, we have archers from all disciplines using our facility without fear of ridicule. This is not true in the case of most clubs in our area - clubs started by bowhunters for bowhunters and anyone on the shooting line with something other than a camo painted bow is chastised. I remember visiting one such club and was flat out told that I was a p#&sy because "you can't eat paper." 

There is something inherently beautiful about watching the flight of an arrow. In slow motion videography, you get to witness the archer's paradox as the arrow bends itself around the riser, the oscillation of the bow string, the wave of energy as its transfered through the archer's forearm, and the spin of the arrow as it clears the riser. All of it is very poetic and has been the stuff of imagination from time immemorial.

My apparent objection to the use of the word "machine" was intended to illustrate just how blind we can be. I have gone to traditional archery jamborees and have been looked down upon by the so called purests because I also happen to shoot a compound. In addition to the 6 bows I own, I also own and shoot a crossbow and when it got out that I own one and shoot one for fun, I was chastised by everyone, compound archers and traditionalists alike. 

Really, all of these discussions about the so-called decline of archery is a moot point and where is the data to support it? We have JOAD and NASP in U.S. NASP is starting to become popular in the education system here in Canada. Our local club membership is at an all time high and we don't just have individual members but families who shoot and compete together. Yes. I agree that the amount of land available to shoot outdoors is dwindling. However, this has been the case throughout history. Historically famous British archery societies such as the Royal Toxophilite Society and the Finsbury Archers eventually folded because of urban sprawl in late 18th century London. Archery clubs have come and gone for the last 400 years and this trend will continue.

Right now, we should celebrate the exposure we're getting because archery is "cool" again. We should be celebrating the fact that kids are putting down the video game controllers and picking up bows in greater frequency. Instead of fighting about what archery discipline is better, maybe we should put that effort into continuing the high level of promotion of target archery as a sport. I know that World Archery is. Anyone see the promo video "Arcus?" 

What was that proverb? Together we stand, divided we fall?


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## tmark (Oct 21, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Urbanization and the legal system has had more of an affect on archery than the compound ever could.
> 
> More and more and more people live where they have no place to safely shoot a bow. And fewer places are open to the idea of archery than before. Gone are the days you could shoot at a city park or a vacant lot without being proned out by the local swat team.
> 
> ...


makes sense, growing urbanization, smaller suburban lots ... no place to shoot


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## EBK (Sep 24, 2012)

I don't think that the compound is the worst thing to happen to archery, it might be the worst thing to happen to recurve archery. That being said, I am a 100% Olympic recurve shooter only, but I think the compound has it's purpose in archery and in our society. I think archery is competing with guns and more entertaining hobbies and essentially we are doing something created probably as far as man can remember. I guess compounds are an evolution of our times and the demands of consumers. While I prefer to shoot recurve and slowly obtain results and am willing to try hours and hours at a time, the compound shooters may not have as much time to try and master archery, plus often the high speeds of the arrow might make it appealing to hunters and those seeking a more "aggressive" feeling bow. 

Will I ever shoot a compound, probably not. But they aren't the worse thing to happen to archery. A compound archer might not have ever wanted to shoot a recurve and left without an option might be shooting a shotgun or rifle. Most people want immediate results and compounds fill that demand.


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## ArcherFletch (Jul 8, 2012)

bobnikon said:


> Here you go.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
> Though I think she is shooting about 15#.
> ECL


The uploader commented that it is a 40# bow.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

Let us look to high schools and college's to promote.Let us find more corporations like Microsoft,Pixar,or Goggle to help. Let the art of repetition apply to all forms of archery. Each has a purpose for someone. Let us move forward and give as many young men and women a chance to learn not only the sport but perhaps to get an education from it. There has never been a better time. Let's not find fault with the past,,,but find a solution for the future. There has to be a way to do this.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

spangler said:


> confoundingly, constantly creating ceaseless conflict seems to be his only cause.


Attacking me personally seems to be yours. I think you are demonstrating confirmation bias. You are seeing what you want to see out of my posts.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

The only thing that hurts archery is when people like the original poster come out with these kinds of ideas through a venue where lots of people can be introduced to such rubbish. 

I'm a little concerned someone with a license to coach has these kinds of detrimental opinions, and I hope this kind of negative attitude doesn't come across the wrong way to anyone he coaches.

If the compound bow has been detrimental to archery, then I guess all of the huge world championship compound wins by American archers has been a horrible, bad thing for USA Archery, right? I'd like to see just how many times recurves have medaled to bring home hardware compared to our compounds in the last ten or twenty years.

I took an injury to my hand due to poor coaching advice that left my fingers unable to release a string without pain going through them. I was forced to get a surgery that might work or cause more damage, or just switch to compound to remain in archery. I switched to compound out of a love for just watching arrows fly, but I've ended up having far more success with it. 

I've shot compound for about a year and a half now, and I shot recurve for a solid four years. Once you've actually tried both (or all three) kinds of shooting with an open mind, you'll realize they're all different, and all have their own challenges. Some people (like our lovely original poster) seem to enjoy hating what they don't understand, I guess.

The way to keep the ball rolling, OP, is not to come onto huge venues calling one type of shooting the death of archery, while proclaiming another type is beyond holy.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Archer 4 Life said:


> I took an injury to my hand due to poor coaching advice that left my fingers unable to release a string without pain going through them.


Speaking of keeping the ball rolling, can you tell us the bad advice that led to your injury? Injury prevention is important to all of us and I'd like to hear what went wrong for you to help keep it from happening to others.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

I believe that media obsession (television, movies, celebrity gossip) enhanced by the internet and related gadget obsession has definitely had a negative impact, while simultaneously adding greater access to archery information. I wouldn't say it's the worst thing that has happened to archery but it has to have had a negative impact. If you're zombie-fied, glued to your Facebook page or your smartphone, you're not very likely to be picking up a bow to shoot some arrows. I guess you could use your iPad to shoot some crappy quality video of someone else shooting arrows...

I also agree with limbwalker's assertion that people have a tougher time finding a place to shoot. Another side effect to this urbanization issue is the cost of actually shooting. You can only shoot at a range in many locations, and shooting at a range costs money. When it costs you potentially hundreds of dollars per year just to use the equipment you shelled out the bucks for, it's definitely going to lead to people putting their bows in a closet and not using them. I'm not advocating that range owners not charge fees, but not having access to a free place to shoot as an alternative to for-pay ranges must be affecting archery's accessibility. 

Another issue I've personally experienced is the big box store mentality applied to equipment sellers. It's pretty tough to find a place to acquire equipment that actually knows what they're talking about. When all that consumers have access to are big box stores with generic, untrained staff, then they're naturally going to receive a lot of bad advice that can frustrate them to the point of driving them away from archery. The guy selling you a fishing pole should probably not be the same person advising you on what archery gear would be good for your ambitions. "Jack of all trades, master of none."


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Archery became popular as a tournament or recreational shooting...then as the compound came on board more and more States were creating special archery "only" hunting seasons. Archery has always been about hunting. The compound made it easier for hunters to enjoy an extended season. They didn't need to put in the practice time traditional archery gear demands....most have no desire to shoot tournaments so tournaments attendance fell off a cliff...then 3D came on board and there was a hugh increase in tournament activity from the hunting community. Orgs like the NFAA, NAA, FITA couldn't keep up with the change and they fell flat. Today I attend 4 or 5 all traditional tournaments (no compounds allowed) per year. They have on the high side 6 to 7 thousand participants to a lower amount of 6 to 7 hundred for local shoots. Only national level events with the NFAA or NAA can draw close to this. Two of the largest are not competitions..just fun shoots that the whole family can participate in. Archery took a different direction. There are more shooters out there than ever...more equipment is being sold than ever and it is still a full family entertainment.

A few years ago, Lancaster ARchery invited the head honcho for Samick to come over at the Eastern Traditional shoot up in PA. The walked around "round" eyed as they witnessed 8,000 participants at the event which was a no competitive shoot. The couldn't understand why so many people would show up for an event that wasn't a competition. Very funny to observe.

Art


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ArtV said:


> Archery became popular as a tournament or recreational shooting...then as the compound came on board more and more States were creating special archery "only" hunting seasons. Archery has always been about hunting. The compound made it easier for hunters to enjoy an extended season. They didn't need to put in the practice time traditional archery gear demands....most have no desire to shoot tournaments so tournaments attendance fell off a cliff...then 3D came on board and there was a hugh increase in tournament activity from the hunting community. Orgs like the NFAA, NAA, FITA couldn't keep up with the change and they fell flat. Today I attend 4 or 5 all traditional tournament (no compounds allowed) the have on the high side 6 to 7 thousand participants to a lower amount of 6 to 7 hundred for local shoots. Only national level events with the NFAA or NAA can draw close to this. Archery took a different direction. There are more shooters out there than ever...more equipment is being sold than ever and it is still a full family entertainment.


Archery has been, and still is, about a number of things. Archery has three primary uses: military, recreational and hunting. Recreational archery, target archery, in the west has been primarily an outgrowth of practice for military archery, hence the long distances. It is only more recently in the 1900's that archery based on hunting distances and conditions became more common, as field archery became a codified sport.

I do think you bring up a good point, though. Which is how do we define the "popularity" of the sport of archery? Is it how many people show up to target archery shoots? How many people hunt with bows? How many bows are sold per year? I don't think there is a single answer to that.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Another side effect to this urbanization issue is the cost of actually shooting. You can only shoot at a range in many locations, and shooting at a range costs money. When it costs you potentially hundreds of dollars per year just to use the equipment you shelled out the bucks for, it's definitely going to lead to people putting their bows in a closet and not using them.


Good point, and one I overlooked. Case in point, look at the cost of an introduction to the sport in Phoenix vs. our small town in rural SE Texas. Hundreds/year vs. about 50 or less.

Also, when archery was "the fastest growing sport in the US" there were a lot of low cost or free places to shoot if you didn't have your own property. Not anymore.

John


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Archer 4 Life *** I think it is too bad to take an opinion and turn it in a personal attach. To bad for you.

I'd still like those to share their ideas on how to continue thw currect surge.

Tom


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## kwboom (Oct 28, 2012)

I know that I am new here but I have been around guns and bows all my life. 

Why is everyone fighting over the one word "ARCHERY". We are all trying to do the same thing we take a stick (arrow), place the back end of it on a string, pull it back and release it at a target of our choice. The only thing different is the bow we are using. Some people prefer to use just a twig with twine tied to the ends, and others prefer to use a very thought out piece of engineered technology. We are all doing the same thing. 

The term "Archery" is so vague now that everyone has a form of it that they will enjoy. If I said that Drag racing was not real "RACING" because the cars are highly modified and there are no turns in the track you would call me an idiot. Same with Golf.... that is now not real golf anymore because of all the new advancements in the balls and clubs, it is only REAL golf if you use old wooden clubs. 


I know that I am gong to have a hard time in my area because of all the hunters, I have no intentions on hunting :mg: Yep even though my dad was a big time hunter, and a very good gunsmith and well known in the gun and hunting community, I am not interested in guns as much as archery, and even less interested in hunting. I really enjoy shooting a compound as I do a recurve, but for me I like compounds, I like my targets and 3D's (hoping to get back into shooting more).

But for everyone saying that this type of bow or that type of bow is not ARCHERY is just plane ******ed. There is different classes for all types of sports INCLUDING ARCHERY for a reason, you don't see a open wheel outlaw buggy racing in formula 1 but they are both considered AUTO RACING.


Instead of us sitting here fighting on what is archery and what is not, why can't we be fighting with ideas on how to get others involved...

Why on every forum you go to there has to be one thread like this, Why do people have to look for all the negatives in everything they love to do. I know for me I would love if there was a range in my area/ town and with the winter quickly approaching something indoors would be great, and for me I would not care if someone was beside me shooting a recurve or a horse bow or even a stick with twine tied to it. We would all be there having fun shooting what we like to shoot and I would be the first to ask if I might be able to try there's, who knows I might just fall in love with the stick and twine....:teeth:


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

Personally, I am very tired of all the banter about recurve, compound, trad, unlimited blah blah. I shoot fingers, release, compound, recurve barebow, and longbow. I hear in every venue how "those" guys are not in the know, not good sports, dont understand, you know if I let it all bother me I would just go fishing, I wonder how many have? Gar.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, we're lucky here. Three ranges to shoot on. All on State land, but maintained by local archery clubs. Anyone can shoot without being a member.

Art


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## tmark (Oct 21, 2006)

TwilightSea said:


> CAN they call the pigs and have them tell you to stop doing Archery in your OWN back yard? Is that even possible? If one of my neighbors told me to stop doing archery, I would tell them to F-off and mind their own business.


Yup, not sure what it means though ... a couple of years ago the cranky old fellow who lived next to my brother yelled from his porch ... "what are you doing, you're going to put somebody's eye out" ... seriously, we couldn't stop laughing for hours. Same guy called the fire department each time we lit a fire. That was amusing too; mostly because when the fire truck arrived the kids would get to clamber all over the truck while the firemen sat and chatted. Karma eventually got the old, guy; he had a fight with his room mate, stormed off into his bedroom, locked the door and up and died in his chair. His room mate was pissed off enough he didn't bother checking on him for 3 days after which ... well it was all kinda disfunctional.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Did someone seriously just call the police "pigs?" 

You obviously have no idea what it's like to wear a badge every day. You get the "joy" of dealing with the lowest forms of the human race on a daily basis, and are thanked by being called "pigs." 

I guess I expect a little more on this forum.

John


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Did someone seriously just call the police "pigs?"
> 
> You obviously have no idea what it's like to wear a badge every day. You get the "joy" of dealing with the lowest forms of the human race on a daily basis, and are thanked by being called "pigs."
> 
> ...


Yup, I work at night. My neighbors think I am a drug dealer because they do not even realize I am gone. They see my car in the driveway in the daytime and assume I do not work. Little do they know I am rounding up Little Johnny Rotten while they sleep. 

Shoot, work, shoot!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Did someone seriously just call the police "pigs?"
> 
> You obviously have no idea what it's like to wear a badge every day. You get the "joy" of dealing with the lowest forms of the human race on a daily basis, and are thanked by being called "pigs."
> 
> ...


This thread was doomed from the word go. 


Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Perhaps we can get back on subject and discuss ways to keep the current influx of interest going??

Tom


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

massman said:


> Perhaps we can get back on subject and discuss ways to keep the current influx of interest going??
> 
> Tom


Had that actually BEEN the subjet of the thread that would be lovely  How bout we close this thread with what you have to admit is a pretty inflammatory title and first post and then open a new thread discussing that excellent topic?

Andrew


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

The worst thing are thin skinned AT members...


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Naw, the worst thing is rude people with no manners.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I would have said, the wind....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed. All fruit of the poisonous tree unfortunately.

John


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Worst thing to happen in archer


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

ArtV said:


> Worst thing to happen in archer


How did that happen? :mg:


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

There was a plan to do just that! It was started by Fred Bear and had buy in from all the other major bow manufacturers at one time. The plan was that they would give 11% of their sales to the government for the building of facilities and promotion of archery nationally. The bill made it through congress as written and when it got to final passage the wording was changed from "funds shall be used for" to "may be used for" and viola! Our FET tax is now just allocated to the general fund of the governing body. U.S. Fish and Wildlife as I understand it. Now we have to beg for those funds to be used for what they were initially intended for. Isn't that just a kick in the soft parts!


massman said:


> think there is a lot of truth in every reply. TY.
> 
> So understanding that there is an impact with the compound bow, shooting venue's and the general polulation's misconceptions...
> 
> ...


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Worst thing...******* bowhunters.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Worst thing...******* bowhunters





> Proud to be a Snob


Love to see someone live up to their namsake! ha, ha.

Art, if that photo didn't get this thread pulled, then I'm not sure what will. 

By the way, spreading photos like that one around the 'net isn't exactly helping our cause here... 

Just sayin'

Hopefully the mod's will pull this one soon. It was DOA.

John


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Love to see someone live up to their namsake! ha, ha.
> 
> 
> John


OneBowTie, once gave me the name of White Pant Snob, I guess it kinda stuck.


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## Carbon Sniper (Nov 13, 2011)

Rifle Season


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## JMiller222 (Jul 8, 2011)

Though some may be losing interest in this thread, or may be dismissing it as negative, for some reason it strikes me as real and more relavent to archery and life than many. The OP, which many may have taken offense to, is not much different than some of the responses. This as some may take offense to returning questionable statements with questionable reponses, instead of simple dialogue. As I read through every post ( often times I am skimming for tuning, form, or product advice ) the entire thread may have struck me differently than some. 

When reading the original post, I did not find myself taking offense or sides (not that I don't do that, as I can get sucked in as much as the next guy ) instead I was taken in by the description of a Father taking his family to the range to get some practice for hunting to help provide food for his family, while his family shot beside him, then joining in with his target setup and interacting as a family. If the OP and others have had that experience, than maybe that is where part of the answer to the original question lies.

The next part of the OP, describing the compound as making it easier to achieve pie plate proficiency in less time, seemed consistent with modernization and technolgy. One may agree, modernization and technolgy with all of its benefits, can foster less of a need for hard work and discipline, to achieve the same results.

Having starting out shooting compound, then some traditional, and now shooting Olympic Recurve, all while my wife shot and still shoots compound, archery in any and all forms has been positive. Limbwalker's perspective and experiences with most all styles of archery, and the discipline and character it takes to be among the best in any style, should go a long way in removing the blind spot that may lead to taking sides. 

So in a long winded way, within the answer to the "worst thing to happen in archery" question, may also ly the answer to how both society and the archery community can make the most of this renewed interest in archery. That answer possibly being the most simple yet complex part of life..............renewing a sense of Family.

We all can agree many families can see the benefits in the discipline and personal interactions that can come from sports and clubs. Whether hockey, softball, baseball, football, gymnastics or any other organized sport. 

Archery may have some inherent advantages to go along with the disadvantages we have all listed in this thread.

Archery seems to be the easiest to taylor to the entire family. From the 2 year old shooting a nerf bow, to the child in 4H or the scouts, JOAD, the Olympics, to NAA and NFAA with divisions and shooters into their eighties still competing in compound hunter, freestyle, barebow, and traditional. How many can say that about the other sports. Sure dad or mom may have been amazing back in the day, whether at hockey, football, softball or any sport. They may even still be able to coach, support, and lead there family in or to these sports. But a sport that the whole family can actively take part in, and the children actually see Dad, Mom, even Grandma and Grampa in some cases, enjoyiing, practicing, and even competing in right now with them, seems pretty relavent. 

I am going to go pretty far out on a limb here, so I remind people that this statement is based on my perspective from my personal experience, and is a positve I see in the archery community and not negative towards any other. This as many if not most of the archery community is also part of and included in other sporting communities. But having been involved, even if only in some small way, in many different organized sports, the cross section of people that I have met in the archery community , may very well be the best suited to have a sport grow and not get lost in some of our human pitfalls. Whether the pitfalls be an ultra competitive need to be better than others, or have the best equipment, or matching clothes, or best team, club or coaches. If we live archery as a family sport and promote it by action and deed as such, who knows what could happen?

Just some more food for thought. Guess I better post before the thread gets pulled:mg:


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

SpiritArcher said:


> What was that proverb? Together we stand, divided we fall?


Amen.

Archers are the worst for archery. Archers ridiculing other archers for not having a [fill in equipment name] in their hand or on their bow in good fun should be just that, good fun. But like other brand-bashing jokes some take it too serious and/or are really offended, and that is not helpful.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Jmiller 222, THANK YOU.

Tom


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Urbanization and the legal system has had more of an affect on archery than the compound ever could.
> 
> More and more and more people live where they have no place to safely shoot a bow. And fewer places are open to the idea of archery than before. Gone are the days you could shoot at a city park or a vacant lot without being proned out by the local swat team.
> 
> ...


In my town Archery is no longer allowed in "Archery Park". As well as not suppose to shoot in your own yard if within city limits no matter what your yard looks like.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

erdman41 said:


> In my town Archery is no longer allowed in "Archery Park". As well as not suppose to shoot in your own yard if within city limits no matter what your yard looks like.


Doh!

In my area I've heard there are some cities where **indoor** archery is illegal, even in your own property. :mg:

And let me add that I don't think negative threads are necessarily a bad thing. If there are good things about archery then the converse will generally also be true, and it would be silly to only allow conversations about the good things in archery. The issue isn't in whether we discuss the challenges to archery or not but in *how* we discuss them. I think the most important thing is for the discussion to be free of personal attacks on people. There are lots of ideas to debate and we can have meaningful conversations if we keep them about the issues and don't make it personal--that that goes both ways, that is, not making personal attacks and not taking everything one disagrees with as a personal attack.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

Warbow said:


> Speaking of keeping the ball rolling, can you tell us the bad advice that led to your injury? Injury prevention is important to all of us and I'd like to hear what went wrong for you to help keep it from happening to others.


My then coach thought it might be a good idea to build up the spacer with putty on my old Cavalier tab rather than just buy a bigger spacer, so I puttied it up about two or three months before Indoor Nationals last year. It ended up putting too much stress on my middle and pointer finger, but I didn't realize it until a shoot down in Victoria, TX, where my fingers began really bothering me during holding and especially during release. 

My options were a surgery to repair any damaged tissues in my fingers due to the weird, slanted curve the spacer had put my fingers into, which might not work, or just switch to training wheels. I switched one or two weeks before Indoor Nationals after debating over whether to shoot through the pain or not.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Archer 4 Life said:


> My then coach thought it might be a good idea to build up the spacer with putty on my old Cavalier tab rather than just buy a bigger spacer, so I puttied it up about two or three months before Indoor Nationals last year. It ended up putting too much stress on my middle and pointer finger, but I didn't realize it until a shoot down in Victoria, TX, where my fingers began really bothering me during holding and especially during release.
> 
> My options were a surgery to repair any damaged tissues in my fingers due to the weird, slanted curve the spacer had put my fingers into, which might not work, or just switch to training wheels. I switched one or two weeks before Indoor Nationals after debating over whether to shoot through the pain or not.


Wow! Good to know that a large spacer can lead to injury. I'm curious about what things we can all do to avoid the same issue.

So the issue was the angle the spacer, and the string angle, forced your fingers into? Do you know for certain that the same thing couldn't have happened with a commercial spacer? Was the issue specifically the way you made your spacer? Or is the issue big spacers in general? Are *any* of the commercial tab spacers orthepedically approved?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

A lot of things can lead to injury. When I was attempting to shoot the "BEST" method back in 2007, I developed severe tendonitis as a result of changing the way I was gripping and hooking the string with my fingers and wrist. It was so bad I had to take 4 months off from shooting, and it resulted in my missing the trials for the 2008 Olympics. I eventually went back to my old tab and way of hooking the string and everything was all better, in time. 

Our bodies tell us things. We're wise to listen to them. Pain is the result of your body telling you it doesn't like what you're doing to it. This is why I believe everyone need to find a reasonable style that works for their body. Because we're not all built alike. 

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Our bodies tell us things. We're wise to listen to them. Pain is the result of your body telling you it doesn't like what you're doing to it. This is why I believe everyone need to find a reasonable style that works for their body. Because we're not all built alike.
> 
> John


Comes down to that old Henny Youngman joke. ""I go to the doctor. I sez "Doc, it hurts when I do this. " "Don't do that.""


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Comes down to that old Henny Youngman joke. ""I go to the doctor. I sez "Doc, it hurts when I do this. " "Don't do that.""


Yea, well that's it in a nutshell. Where we see problems is with people - usually kids, but not always - who think they need to "work through" pain as if its some kind of payment for excellence or something. Usually, they're to scared to say anything because they think 1) they must be doing it wrong, 2) the pain will go away 3) they might lose their spot on the "magenta" team, or something like that. 

Folks need to listen to their bodies. 

Archery should NOT be painful.

John


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Yes, but Henny also used to say... TAKE MY WIFE.....PLEASE!!

Tom


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I like Rodney Dangerfield's joke:

"Yeah, yeah, ya know, my wife complains a lot, always complaining. Last night she was complaining that I never take her anywhere different to eat.

So I took her to the kitchen."


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Folks need to listen to their bodies.
> 
> Archery should NOT be painful.
> 
> John


True. In fact, I'm down again with a pulled something-or-other in the right shoulder. Fortunately, it's not the original injury that put me down the last time, but I'm still weeks or maybe months away from picking my bow up again. I was trying to draw the bow the "right" way, i.e.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCd7YBiV1U8

and it was just ripping something apart in the right shoulder at the joint, without me knowing it at first. No idea why it kills me but works for so many others. Before I put all my gear in storage, I tried a different draw method, where I draw while raising the bow. That stopped tweaking whatever was tearing me up, but by then it was too late and I had to put the gear away and go find another hobby. 

As for finger tabs, I too have never been able to shoot any kind of tab with a finger separator. It instantly comes out of the tab and goes in the trash for some reason; now I just use the little Kantpinch tabs with the fur liner and the inner rubber spacer removed. But I never have problems with the drawing fingers, so I'm good with that.... 

Hoping I can resume shooting in a couple months.

LS


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

lksseven said:


> I like Rodney Dangerfield's joke:
> 
> "Yeah, yeah, ya know, my wife complains a lot, always complaining. Last night she was complaining that I never take her anywhere different to eat.
> 
> So I took her to the kitchen."


Classic Youngman..........

"I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back."


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## TwilightSea (Apr 16, 2012)

Warbow said:


> Doh!
> 
> In my area I've heard there are some cities where **indoor** archery is illegal, even in your own property. :mg:


How the hell are they going to enforce that!? And they made it illegal indoors too!? Who's brilliant idea was to ban Archery as a whole!? I would so say screw that and keep doing Archery.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

This is quite a thread and bringing out a lot of emotions from many different people. I had to go back and read the original post and not sure but I think someone here just does not like compounds. I'm not sure about the rest of the U.S. but here in Arizona, the amount of archery tags went way up when the compound became so popular. Many new archers were asking for more hunting opportunities with their archery equipment. 

At first, compounds were looked down on then some archers realized they could be proficient with lots less practice. Was this a bad thing, I don't think so. 

At many current competitions you find several different classes in which to compete. One for purely traditional, one for recurves with extras like sights and stabilizers, one for bare bow, one for compounds, one for compounds with sights, one for compounds with scopes, releases and you name it. For me, I like the pin point accuracy my compound with sights gives me but I don't diminish the love for archery another has that wants to shoot a recurve. How about the one that wants to make his own recurve as well as his own arrows. Heck, some and even make broadheads like primative man once did. If it floats your boat then go for it. Like another said, "United we stand, divided we fall"


massman said:


> I'd suggest...THE COMPOUND BOW.
> 
> Think on it a moment. Yes the compound is better for hunting. But what was happening in archery before the compound was introduced and what happened after.
> 
> ...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

_"At first, compounds were looked down on then some archers realized *they could be proficient with lots less practice.*"_

I agree with you that it's not a bad thing. And I don't think the OP was saying that compounds are 'bad' (at least as I read it) - he's not saying there's something inherently 'bad' about the compound bow technology. He's hypothesizing that the compound technology enabled sufficiency skill without much time involved - and the subsequent diminished 'family time/archers' time together' was disruptive to what had been the traditional pattern of the archery community, i.e. "necessarily large amounts of time spent in the company of other archers, be they family members or not."

I've seen that hypothesis played out anecdotally at my range. I get to know the recurve archers much better (the few that there are in my neck of the woods - like maybe 2 others) because we're spending several hours together at a time. We're shooting 60yards and 70meters, and one 'set' of compound guys will come out in September, we'll all smile and greet one another, then the compound guys will walk to the other end of the shooting line, shoot 15 arrows at 20yards, and be on their way home in 15 minutes. The other 'set' of compound guys will always shoot indoors, so we recurvers only wave at them from the outdoor shooting line. These compound guys (more 'indoor league oriented' than 'hunting oriented') will shoot longer, and have their own archer community friendships forged by virtue of the time they spend with each other. I envy them their sheer numbers of participants and larger 'community'. But the point is that the compound technology inserts its own set of rhythms and cadences into the sport, which are different than some of the rhythms and cadences of the recurve dance model. Does the compound technology - and its learning curve advantages up to the level of 'proficient' - draw away new potential recurve archers? I'm sure it does. Does it also get the 'archery hook' planted into newbies so that they become entrenched archers who at some point go on to step into the recurve pool - newbies who if originally stepping into the recurve pool might be discouraged by the learning curve timeframe to become proficient and quit prematurely? I absolutely believe that is true, too. 

It's all good, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that something hasn't been lost along with what has been gained. That just seems to be how things work.

My 2cents.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Resisted till today, but can't resist anymore ....

My answer to the original question is "The Olympic Round"
While OR is almost perfect for TV, it gives a very different perception of our sport to general public, than it was giving in the past. People looks to London games in TV and does not get anymore the message that this is a sport for all the family, but that can also be played alone and in a much simpler way. Advertisemnt is different from real product, this is the worst thing happened to archery ... that still slows down its development.
Golf in TV is same as Golf at amateur level
Table tennis is also same
Cycling is also same
and so and so..

Archery is totally different ....


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> Resisted till today, but can't resist anymore ....
> 
> My answer to the original question is "The Olympic Round"
> While OR is almost perfect for TV, it gives a very different perception of our sport to general public, than it was giving in the past. People looks to London games in TV and does not get anymore the message that this is a sport for all the family, but that can also be played alone and in a much simpler way. Advertisemnt is different from real product, this is the worst thing happened to archery ... that still slows down its development.
> ...


I think that the idea that archery HAS to be a competitive sport might be turning some people away. My wife practices carefully and purposefully with her compound bow, but she will NEVER compete. All she wants is every arrow in the Gold, and when she consistently achieves that she moves the target back. Achievement does not require competition. (I'm not trying to say you shouldn't be proud of your son's Olympic Gold, that was a glorious moment. Just that Glory isn't for everyone.)


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

I love 3d,

Well I guess I need to come out of the closet about me and compounds...NOT!!

My best,

Tom


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Hey Tom, didn't mean anything derogitory about your like or dislike for compounds and I should have stated it better than I did. I could care less what type of bow anybody shoots whether they hunt or compete. We all have our own morals and standards which we live by and to each his own. I was not saying one is better than another. I hear both sides at the shoots for and against both recurve and compounds as I am sure you have also. 

My best as well.

Pete


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

Bowhunting on TV.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

ILOVE3D,

Hey, saying you meant nothing derogitory and then following it up on the next line of text, question my morals and standrard just dosn't cut it.

YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME... TO ASSAULT/SLANGER ME, YES ASSAULT & SLANGER IS WHAT IT IS YOU HAVE DONE... ON A NATIONAL FORUM AS YOU DID SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT YOU... NOT ME. 

I'M CUTTING OFF MY COMMENTS NOW BEFORE I TYPE SOMETHING I'D REGRET.

I simply related what I saw over the years. No wonder why some may question participating in these forums.

Tom


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

There no assaulting going on nor is any slanger (slander) going on here either. BTW it's libel, not slander. Your overreaction to a single sentence that you read WAY too far into speaks volumes as well.

Wait did I just get duped too????


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

This has to end


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