# Speed Limits



## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

I wish the IBO would do a speed limit. 300 fps is a good top speed about anyone can achieve.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

I think a 300 fps speed limit is a good idea for adult males. It should be different for women and youth/cub shooters. Something like 240 for cubs, 275 for women and youth. But retain the arrow weight rule of 5 grains per pound of draw weight to keep it safe. Otherwise people are going to stress their bows beyond safe limits to shoot light weight and achieve the speed limit. Just my opinion.


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

darton3d said:


> I think a 300 fps speed limit is a good idea for adult males. It should be different for women and youth/cub shooters. Something like 240 for cubs, 275 for women and youth. But retain the arrow weight rule of 5 grains per pound of draw weight to keep it safe. Otherwise people are going to stress their bows beyond safe limits to shoot light weight and achieve the speed limit. Just my opinion.


Well said...


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## kevoswifey (Feb 14, 2012)

darton3d said:


> I think a 300 fps speed limit is a good idea for adult males. It should be different for women and youth/cub shooters. Something like 240 for cubs, 275 for women and youth. But retain the arrow weight rule of 5 grains per pound of draw weight to keep it safe. Otherwise people are going to stress their bows beyond safe limits to shoot light weight and achieve the speed limit. Just my opinion.


ASA speed limits for women are at 280 for Known 40, Open B, Open A, and Women's Pro. Women's hunter is 260. 275 seems reasonable if IBO were to impose a speed limit.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

I disagree that (just about) "ANYONE" can achieve 300FPS. You are DEAD wrong dude!
Guys like you have 29" draws, are 6 foot tall and draw 70. You are NOT the "Norm". Look around you.

Even if a small man (like me) spends a Mortgage payment on a bow, (Which I cannot in the fear and uncertainty surrounding the Obama Economy) A bow with a 340 IBO rating will get me only 295 FPS with a 300 grain arrow at 60 pounds.

"Anyone" cannot achieve those speeds. In fact most can't.

My friend has a 25" draw. She's shooting a very nice bow. (G5 Q33) She is drawing 55 pounds and with the minimum weight arrow shooting 255 FPS. That';s the best she can do.
I'm shooting a bow that is a speed demon. (Bowtech Equalizer) I'm pulling 60.5 pounds at 26.5". With a minimum weight Easton Arrow I'm seeing 294FPS.


That said, our club has a 300 FPS speed limit EVERY DAY.

During our last 3-D event the club president hid a speed gun (Chronograph) and as the archers passed the hidden spot. (About 300 of them), He demanded their cards and had them shoot through the trap. There were 5 violations who were immediately disqualified. One 6 foot 30" draw guy had a FIT! His bow was shooting over 340FPS. He reacted like a child and made an abject fool out of himself while cussing and swearing. (sounds like a Democrat to me)

The rule was to make the playing field a bit more level but those who have no honor, virtue or sense of right and wrong, cry foul because they think their "Rights" have been violated. (again...more leftist reactionary ways)



No...Everyone can't achieve 300.


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

I like it. Makes for a level playing field. Best thing that could happen to archery. Trying to shoot a few ASA's during the year and having to change point weight and my sight tape is a real pain. One of the best suggestions I heard in a long time.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ASA doesn't have a arrow weight to pounds of draw weight.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

I understand that the ASA doesn't have an arrow weight to pounds of draw weight limit. I was just offering my opinion on how things could be set up. I think it would be a good compromise and safety standard. It's just my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth. Without the arrow weight rule, ANYONE could certainly hit 300 fps. Just not sure how safe it would be. I think the speed limit and arrow weight rule go hand in hand.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

threetoe said:


> I disagree that (just about) "ANYONE" can achieve 300FPS. You are DEAD wrong dude!
> Guys like you have 29" draws, are 6 foot tall and draw 70. You are NOT the "Norm". Look around you.
> 
> Even if a small man (like me) spends a Mortgage payment on a bow, (Which I cannot in the fear and uncertainty surrounding the Obama Economy) A bow with a 340 IBO rating will get me only 295 FPS with a 300 grain arrow at 60 pounds.
> ...


I stated just about anyone (that does not mean everyone) can reach 300 fps. I'm sorry?.? 

Since when did a Bowtech Equalizer become a speed demon anyway? Somebody needs to go back to watching Foxnews so they don't miss the latest politics. Sorry to offend you.


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## 1fowlhunter (Jan 19, 2012)

Silly question from a new guy. As long as your not shooting over 300fps, could you still participate? At a 27 1/2" draw it's not likely that I would be hitting 300fps either. Do most feel that if the speed is the same that there are no other advantages/disadvantages?


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

1fowlhunter said:


> Silly question from a new guy. As long as your not shooting over 300fps, could you still participate? At a 27 1/2" draw it's not likely that I would be hitting 300fps either. Do most feel that if the speed is the same that there are no other advantages/disadvantages?


yes, you can participate as long as you're not shooting over 300. i'm not sure what other advantages/disadvantages you might be thinking about.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

threetoe said:


> I disagree that (just about) "ANYONE" can achieve 300FPS. You are DEAD wrong dude!
> Guys like you have 29" draws, are 6 foot tall and draw 70. You are NOT the "Norm". Look around you.
> 
> Even if a small man (like me) spends a Mortgage payment on a bow, (Which I cannot in the fear and uncertainty surrounding the Obama Economy) A bow with a 340 IBO rating will get me only 295 FPS with a 300 grain arrow at 60 pounds.
> ...


Okay, first of all, no need to bring up politics. There is another place for that. Second of all, when I look around me and compare myself to my peers (adult males) I notice that we are all around 5'10", draw around 28" and pull 60lbs. With that said, it is not my intention to start an argument here, so please don't take it that way. But let's take a look at arrow performance at 295 fps vs 300fps. That is a difference of about 1.7% in arrow speed. Can anyone really tell the difference in arrow drop, even at 50yds? I don't think so. I am also willing to bet that if you shot a bow over a chrono 10 times, you would see at least a 1% difference in arrow speed over the 10 shots. So that makes the realistic difference in your arrow speed vs mine as little as .7% (but also as large as 3.4%) But the reality is, unless you are an absolute perfect shooter, you will not notice even a 3% difference in speed. If you don't have an absolute perfect aim, and perfect shot, that 1.7% difference in speed just won't matter. 

Based on that, I think for the men's classes that a strict 300fps is very reasonable. It allows for us mere mortals to be less than absolutely perfect with yardage, doesn't make the speed demon bow obsolete for 3D shooting, and still levels the playing field.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

The 300fps limit would be a maximum, not a minimum like on the highways while we drive our cars. My idea is a STRICT 300fps maximum, meaning if you shoot 1fps over, you are DQ'd. Being that many bows will very 1 or 2 fps from shot to shot, you would want to set up a bit slower 297 or so, to avoid shooting hot. The idea behind the speed limit is that all bows have the same max speed, so everyone has to be equally good at judging yardage. 

My idea behind a reasonable 300fps limit is to put more of a premium on judging yardage. If your bow is doing 340fps, you still have to judge, but can be a larger percentage off of the actual number and still hit the 10. With everyone shooting (near) the same speed, everyone has to be equally good at judging yardage in order to be competitive.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

As I see it there might be another benefit to a universal speed limit. There might be less pressure on the bow manufacturers to keep trying to make faster and faster bows, which I believe leads to much of the limb failures and harsher and harsher cams being made. Technology could slow down a bit and give us archers something a bit more user friendly for a longer period of time.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Guys, you rattle off about 300 fps all day long and you're only talking sanctioned events. Make everyone shoot through a chronograph at a regular club 3D event and you won't see the average speed exceed 280 fps, probably not even exceed 270 fps. Again, average.

My opinions;
The NFAA adopted 300 fps for a reason. Membership dropping drastically, they hoped to capture some of the speed boys. Lose some 2000 members and you'll grasp at any "straw." Remember, the NFAA had as much as some 16,000 members and in a short time went to some 14,000. I can't find it at the moment, but I thought Bruce noted something less than 14,000.
The ASA just adopted 290 fps for more than bows getting faster. It was also done to capture some IBO people, beings the IBO went with Rinehart targets.

Personally, I felt 280 fps. a descent speed limit for with a little home work I could possibly get all my bows to reach such speed.


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## 300MAG (Nov 26, 2005)

300 fps is a good speed limit to have in all organizations. 10 years ago 280 would have been the number in my own opinion. I shoot. 27.5 dl. 10 years ago I had a hard time finding a bow that was forgiving and that could shoot 280. Now the speed is around 310 before it isn't forgiving for me. Bows and arrows are much better today. 10 yrs from now it could be 310 fps for a new speed limit. With technology evolving it is bound to change. I can't get a bow that will shoot faster than 320 at 5 grains at my draw length.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

bfisher said:


> As I see it there might be another benefit to a universal speed limit. There might be less pressure on the bow manufacturers to keep trying to make faster and faster bows, which I believe leads to much of the limb failures and harsher and harsher cams being made. Technology could slow down a bit and give us archers something a bit more user friendly for a longer period of time.


Actually, I really doubt it matters to the bow manufacturers what the speed limit in any organization is because their main market is not national level 3D shooters, it's hunters. I'm sure the manufacturers prefer lower speed limits that most peoples hunting bows blow right on by so that they can sell more of their target bows, long stabs, heavy fat arrows, etc.


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## ShortHanded (May 14, 2006)

Regardless the spec (300 or 290 fps) the main opportunity is for both IBO and ASA to standardize on the same max speed limit. benefits everyone. personally I would like to see a 300 fps limit.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

ShortHanded said:


> Regardless the spec (300 or 290 fps) the main opportunity is for both IBO and ASA to standardize on the same max speed limit. benefits everyone. personally I would like to see a 300 fps limit.


Totally agree this must be done....


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

What is the reasoning for more speed ? More speed just reduces the ability needed to judge distance. Heck, if the goal is to make the matches more competive make the speed the limit 250 fps not 300 fps. That will keep judging distance part of the game. I think if you want to shoot 250 plus it should be all known distance that way no one has any advanage over someone else and you can shoot as fast as you want.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

Being able to shoot a fast bow accurately is also a part of shooting 3D. It's not only about being able to guess the distance correctly. There are many facets to the 3D game, and a fast bow is one of them. If you want to make it absolutely even than shoot spots indoors at 20 yds, limit everyone to - the same diameter arrow, the same power lens, same length stabilizers, maximum bow weight(physical weight of the bow) etc.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

go ahead and keep on the speed limit deal.the guy with a 31 inch draw will still shoot the 345 fps bow with an arrow 70 or 80 grains heavier to tame the speed down to the limit and still have a set up that will shoot flatter than the short weakling who only draws 60 punds and only practices on the weekend and then he wants to cry when they dont win. with that being said i have had mt ass handed to me many times by men and women with a shorter draw and shooting 60 pounds or less on the 3-d course because they put the time in and practiced practice and more practice not cry cry cry.


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## archermarj (May 6, 2006)

If you want a universal speed limit and you are saying that 10 fps one way or another won't make a difference why doesn't everyone adopt the 290? Why make it 300? It IS hard for everyone to make it to 300. I myself have a hard time making it to 280 in the women's open A. My draw is 24.5 and I am competing with women that have arm 2 inches longer than mine most of the time. If universal speed is what you want and then it is all about judging why does it have to be 300?


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

J Name said:


> and practiced practice and more practice not cry cry cry.


Yeah, but 3d season is over most places and hunting has started in many locations...what else are we going to do? We gotta fill the time gaps somehow, lol.


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## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

i would like to see a 300 fps rule. one bow for everything,heck yea.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

To respond to some questioning "why 300fps as the limit?", here is my reasoning. With the majority of the bows on the market today being rated at around 330 IBO, I felt that 300 was very doable for the average adult male. When I oringinally posted the idea, I was perhaps being a bit narrowly focused, and didn't really think of shorter draw archers. I also felt that if the IBO went from unlimited speed to 300fps, while it would be a drastic change, it wouldn't be too huge and those who really like their speed bows wouldn't feel so put off. Bottom line, from the feedback I am getting on here, the idea of one speed for both 3D organizations, seems to be a good one. What the limit turns into, I don't really care. Honestly, I doubt it will happen. People fear change, and I guess one of the reasons some people like IBO is because it is unlimited in terms of speed. But who knows. Maybe the right people will see this, support it, and put it on the books. Time will tell.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

IBOHunt3D said:


> To respond to some questioning "why 300fps as the limit?", here is my reasoning. With the majority of the bows on the market today being rated at around 330 IBO, I felt that 300 was very doable for the average adult male. When I oringinally posted the idea, I was perhaps being a bit narrowly focused, and didn't really think of shorter draw archers. I also felt that if the IBO went from unlimited speed to 300fps, while it would be a drastic change, it wouldn't be too huge and those who really like their speed bows wouldn't feel so put off. Bottom line, from the feedback I am getting on here, the idea of one speed for both 3D organizations, seems to be a good one. What the limit turns into, I don't really care. Honestly, I doubt it will happen. People fear change, and I guess one of the reasons some people like IBO is because it is unlimited in terms of speed. But who knows. Maybe the right people will see this, support it, and put it on the books. Time will tell.


Now you are more understanding. Those fast IBO speeds are given through 30" of draw. You noted "average adult male" the average height is 5 foot, 10 inches in height. The average adult male then has something of 27 1/2 to 28" of draw length.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

Yeah, after realizing what is possible for the majority of archers, 290 seems better. There will still be people who can't meet that, but as has been mentioned before, a slower limit for women and youth wouldn't be bad. 

I think the major thing is for both organizations to agree on a limit, set it, and then enforce it at their shoots. A national speed limit would be a very positive thing for the sport of 3D archery. If for no other reason than competitors could not really complain that they got beat by speed instead of skill.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

a person with a 30 inch draw has to hold steady longer than those with a 27 inch draw. arrow has to stay in the bow and on the string longer. 30 " draw and 7" brace hieght = 23 27" draw and 7" brace hieght= 20" so the taller guy has to hold steaddy over 10% longer .


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## Bigjim67 (Jan 23, 2006)

> a person with a 30 inch draw has to hold steady longer than those with a 27 inch draw. arrow has to stay in the bow and on the string longer. 30 " draw and 7" brace hieght = 23 27" draw and 7" brace hieght= 20" so the taller guy has to hold steaddy over 10% longer .


I like that!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

J Name said:


> a person with a 30 inch draw has to hold steady longer than those with a 27 inch draw. arrow has to stay in the bow and on the string longer. 30 " draw and 7" brace hieght = 23 27" draw and 7" brace hieght= 20" so the taller guy has to hold steaddy over 10% longer .


OMG! Them cheating short stroking shooters!


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## dent 42 (Jan 15, 2010)

J Name said:


> a person with a 30 inch draw has to hold steady longer than those with a 27 inch draw. arrow has to stay in the bow and on the string longer. 30 " draw and 7" brace hieght = 23 27" draw and 7" brace hieght= 20" so the taller guy has to hold steaddy over 10% longer .


Ok so at 300 fps that 10% longer is approx .0002 sec ... that's a pretty small advantage or disadvantage however you want to look at it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

J Name said:


> a person with a 30 inch draw has to hold steady longer than those with a 27 inch draw. arrow has to stay in the bow and on the string longer. 30 " draw and 7" brace hieght = 23 27" draw and 7" brace hieght= 20" so the taller guy has to hold steaddy over 10% longer .


lol. You been talking to Gillingham to much.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

the shoter person has less wind hitting them on wendy days so theres another way them short strokers take advantage of us that are challenged to use our longer and clumbsier limbs.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

yes but you tall people are farther from the ground so gravity doesn't affect your arrow as much! :wink:


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

How about IBO going to 300 only if you wanted to compete for shooter of the year or money and leave the rest to shoot what they bring? Just idea go ahead and say no way!


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## peshikthe (Aug 1, 2011)

i shoot ibo here in ohio, my go to 3d bow is a pse omen pro with my hunting weight arrow(same bow) i get 300 fps with a 318 grain x weave 200 arrow, with my 3d arrow a gold tip 600 im getting right 340 so its pretty flat but still doesnt over penetrate (approx 260 grain) and i dont have my bow weight very high its set a 52 pounds and my draw length is 29 inches. its still as hard to judge yardage and i still have misses that i cant or dont want to expalin, but with a one pin viper that is all i shoot at 3d and hunting i can hit from 20 to 50 and put all of my arrows in the size of a fist at any distance with my hunting set up, and i can and do average 277-285 on 3d courses all seaason but i practice like mad 6-7 days a week during 3d season and 4-5 during bow season sometims more even between moving stands and morning and evening hunts. i agree it is harder for shorter drawlengths to achieve 300 fps but i beleive a person should learn the particular bow they are shooting inside and out and practice until they are able to judge yardage well and execute there shots equally as well. i have had folks with older, slower, and shorter drawlengths hand me my hat more than once. this all boils down to one thing how well is the bow set up and how prepared is the shooter.


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## BMXRider2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

I think 300 or even 290 for both is fair. I shoot a 27" and 60# bow. and I can easily and safely get over 300, but there are guys shooting 340+. At a hunter stake or even advanced or mbr, that takes alot of thinking or judging away. I think a speed limit should be there to level the playing field.


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## iwannahoyt93 (Dec 13, 2011)

if they had the same speed limit than that would make them practically the same organization except from the targets and having the x's not in the center. People love ibo for no speed limit and people love asa because it uses the mckenzies everyone is use to and likes. they need something to advertise that will make you pick one or the other over another.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

iwannahoyt93 said:


> if they had the same speed limit than that would make them practically the same organization except from the targets and having the x's not in the center. People love ibo for no speed limit and people love asa because it uses the mckenzies everyone is use to and likes. they need something to advertise that will make you pick one or the other over another.


I disagree with one point. Much of this conversation is about making speeds for both organizations the same, the purpose being so one can shoot both without having to have separate setups and/or be changing setups to shoot one or the other. Simplify the rules and simplify the equipment requirements and just shoot what's offered in your area or where ever one chooses to travel to.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

iwannahoyt93 said:


> if they had the same speed limit than that would make them practically the same organization except from the targets and having the x's not in the center. People love ibo for no speed limit and people love asa because it uses the mckenzies everyone is use to and likes. they need something to advertise that will make you pick one or the other over another.


actually i like asa because of the format. you can shoot the sims range beginning on thursday, then there's the team shoot on friday, and the individual classes on saturday and sunday. that's quite a bit of shooting and if i'm making a trip to florida, texas, etc., i want to get in all the shooting i can. targets don't really make that much of a difference for me, nor does the speed limit.


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## CrazyCajunLSU (Sep 22, 2012)

IBOHunt3D said:


> Okay, first of all, no need to bring up politics. There is another place for that. Second of all, when I look around me and compare myself to my peers (adult males) I notice that we are all around 5'10", draw around 28" and pull 60lbs. With that said, it is not my intention to start an argument here, so please don't take it that way. But let's take a look at arrow performance at 295 fps vs 300fps. That is a difference of about 1.7% in arrow speed. Can anyone really tell the difference in arrow drop, even at 50yds? I don't think so. I am also willing to bet that if you shot a bow over a chrono 10 times, you would see at least a 1% difference in arrow speed over the 10 shots. So that makes the realistic difference in your arrow speed vs mine as little as .7% (but also as large as 3.4%) But the reality is, unless you are an absolute perfect shooter, you will not notice even a 3% difference in speed. If you don't have an absolute perfect aim, and perfect shot, that 1.7% difference in speed just won't matter.
> 
> Based on that, I think for the men's classes that a strict 300fps is very reasonable. It allows for us mere mortals to be less than absolutely perfect with yardage, doesn't make the speed demon bow obsolete for 3D shooting, and still levels the playing field.



I hate to burst your bubble I don't think it's proper to say that when you look around everyone is 5'10" shooting 60lb...... I'm COMPLETELY and TOTALLY OFFENDED.... I'm 5'10.5" and shoot 61lbs.... OH MY GOD.... WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH MYSELF.....

It's America.. we all have opinions and the right to free speech..... Watch this
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, In God we trust, Praise the Lord-AMEN.... 

Anyway, I agree with the speed limit thing on 3D competitions. Just cuz you can afford a Ferrari don't mean it's fair to race me in my Focus..... My focus will EAT YOU FOR LUNCH!!!!

OH, ps IBOHunt3D... just kidding brother!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

CrazyCajunLSU said:


> I hate to burst your bubble I don't think it's proper to say that when you look around everyone is 5'10" shooting 60lb...... I'm COMPLETELY and TOTALLY OFFENDED.... I'm 5'10.5" and shoot 61lbs.... OH MY GOD.... WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH MYSELF.....
> 
> It's America.. we all have opinions and the right to free speech..... Watch this
> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, In God we trust, Praise the Lord-AMEN....
> ...


a Cajun from CT...hummm got dem mudbugs up dere, you?


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## Andy1602 (Oct 11, 2012)

I shot 3-D in the 90's and I shot, martan, hoyt, pse, clearwater, alpine & mcphearson HUNTING bows. Yes the clearwater out of the box with hachet cams set at 62lbs all the way down with a 29" draw shot 318 IBO but the brace height was less than 6 inches. It still took a lot of practise to stay competive. I think you should shoot a bow setup that you would hunt with on a 3d range. Our club went to a 280 fps IBO with no longer than one stablizer limited to 6 inches. So I went back to shooting a Mcphearson Solo Lite that was sent to me when I shot for Mcphearson. I had more fun shooting that cheapo bow shooting 56 lbs to get it down to 280 ibo and winning several tourments with it. Others shooting 500 dollar bows and making them mad. I do belive a 300 IBO can be set with the newer bows these days but nothing beats able to judging the distance to the target and practice. 
I shot fingers at first then the release aids came out. Have fun if you want to win practice!

Just my opinion, Andy


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Maybe we could all start working on our weaknesses annd get better and stop blaming speed, draw lenght etc. I'm guessing there are many good shooters that have short draw lengths???? May be the NFL should limit there lineman to no more than 6' 4 250 lbs and anyone that runs the 40 in 4.4 or under can't play because we need to make everything and fair? Life's not fair!


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

nochance said:


> Maybe we could all start working on our weaknesses annd get better and stop blaming speed, draw lenght etc. I'm guessing there are many good shooters that have short draw lengths???? May be the NFL should limit there lineman to no more than 6' 4 250 lbs and anyone that runs the 40 in 4.4 or under can't play because we need to make everything and fair? Life's not fair!


The NFL example illustrates your point, and I get it. But it really is an apples to oranges comparison. In the shorter classes, if you are shooting 330 fps, you really don't need to think about yardage. Its pretty much point and shoot. Now granted, you still have to make a good shot, but yardage doesn't really come into play. If you set a speed limit, yardage becomes more of an issue, as does making a perfect shot. 

But in all reality, fairness isn't what this post was originally about. I put this up because I think it would be great if archers could use one setup for all of their 3D shooting. I am sure there are at a few people that would like to shoot IBO and ASA style 3D, but don't like the idea of having two setups, or switching arrows and sights for the different tournaments. If the speed were standardized, then competitors could use one rig, one type of arrow, one sight/sight tape, and be able to compete in both organzations.


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

IBO 2013 rules are posted on website. New for 2013, 290 fps limit for archers shooting arrows less than 5 grains per pound of bow weight.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

nochance said:


> Maybe we could all start working on our weaknesses annd get better and stop blaming speed, draw lenght etc. I'm guessing there are many good shooters that have short draw lengths???? May be the NFL should limit there lineman to no more than 6' 4 250 lbs and anyone that runs the 40 in 4.4 or under can't play because we need to make everything and fair? Life's not fair![/QUOTE
> 
> Are you kidding me. WOW. Bows can be limited. A persons size cant be. No comparison.
> Jame


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

RickT said:


> IBO 2013 rules are posted on website. New for 2013, 290 fps limit for archers shooting arrows less than 5 grains per pound of bow weight.


Interesting.... Wonder how many people disregard bow company warranties or will bow companies re-do their warranties?


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## BMXRider2011 (Oct 21, 2011)

I think a speed limit just evens out the field a little. I am a 27" draw and shoot 60# bows, but I can still break 300+ fps easily, just makes judging easier. When I shoot slower bows it actually makes me think.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I wonder how many archers from the Pro class on down don't win IBO shoots just from thinking they're at a disadvantage due to speed (whether they actually are or aren't). Serious flaw in the mental game.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

as you can see on my first post on this subject and to level the playing field a 29" draw has to shoot a 7' or less brace height bow and a 27" draw has to use a 5" or less brace height bow that way al arrows are in the bow for the same amount of time.


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## VAN DAM (Feb 16, 2010)

I like the speed limit idea, I love shooting ASA and would like to shoot IBO but havent done it yet because I would feel at a disadvantage shooting 280. I've been thinking of setting up a fast bow just for that but the idea of having one bow for everything sounds alot better. I could easily set up a bow and get it shooting 340 but thats a lot of dollars to spend on another setup. I think the biggest argument for a standardized speed limit is being able to shoot everything with one setup so more ASA guys will shoot IBO and vice versa.


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## m0r1tz (Sep 14, 2012)

Must say . . . I'm all for a speed limit at IBO shoots, just makes sense.


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm against the IBO setting a speed limit in this context.

-Archery is somewhat of an athletic sport, you condition yourself to pull 70# with a little longer DL than most, you should be able to take full advantage of the situation.
-Why should an individual who invests the money in a speed bow, tunes it perfectly over 300fps, and shoots well for their class be told you can't shoot that here. If the course can't support arrows over 300fps because of a safety concern - that course needs to correct the shortfall.
-The companies will continue to build faster bows - lets be honest speed sells - why would the sponsor continue to support events only to have no incentive from the shooter to buy a faster bow every few years.

-For those that shoot both ASA and IBO, set your bow up for the more conservative set of rules and learn your bow inside and out on that field. You'll find practice and experience will make up for any advantage in speed alone.

I dislike the philosophy of leveling the playing field - particularly in the Open Classes.
Shoot what you brung, and if you don't place well think about what you need to work on instead of handicapping those more capable (physically or by equipment) than you are.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

VAN DAM said:


> I like the speed limit idea, I love shooting ASA and would like to shoot IBO but havent done it yet because I would feel at a disadvantage shooting 280. I've been thinking of setting up a fast bow just for that but the idea of having one bow for everything sounds alot better. I could easily set up a bow and get it shooting 340 but thats a lot of dollars to spend on another setup. I think the biggest argument for a standardized speed limit is being able to shoot everything with one setup so more ASA guys will shoot IBO and vice versa.


Steve..... the speed thing hooplah....that theory been shot down by a few people....From levi on down in winiing and placing shooting their ASA bow at ibo events.... Mostly because ASA shooters are better (personal opinnion / joking people) .... But I do believe that a unified start of rules could be and just might be a blessing for the sport as a whole.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

VAN DAM said:


> I like the speed limit idea, I love shooting ASA and would like to shoot IBO but havent done it yet because I would feel at a disadvantage shooting 280. I've been thinking of setting up a fast bow just for that but the idea of having one bow for everything sounds alot better. I could easily set up a bow and get it shooting 340 but thats a lot of dollars to spend on another setup. I think the biggest argument for a standardized speed limit is being able to shoot everything with one setup so more ASA guys will shoot IBO and vice versa.


Absolutely man. I would love to shoot ASA, but I don't like the idea of having to have two setups. I am sure ASA guys feel the same. It would be nice if we all were independantly wealthy and could afford 8 new bows a year, but most of us aren't, and have to do with shooting the same bow for several years before an upgrade is doable. By only needing one setup based on a speed limit in both organizations, you don't need to participate in the arms race.

I know that speed sells, and manufacturers make faster bows every year, but the reality is that target archers make up a tiny percentage of the people purchasing bows. 

Also, I am only proposing a speed limit for the national level shoots. If you are a casual club shooter who doesn't travel to big events, run what you brung, shoot an open setup from the hunter stake, use a rangefinder, whatever (just be ethical and don't turn in a scorecard or take zeros if you are cheating) as I view club level shoots as practice for major events (just my opinion, some may take their club shoots very seriously, and that's fine). But for those archers that are serious about competing at the national level, a standardized speed limit makes sense as it simplifies equipment needs, and lowers costs. And if you think about it, with the price of bows, stabilizers, sights, arrows, rests, and the like, I am willing to bet the amateur shooter could pay for their entry fees for at least half the tournaments on what they saved by not buying a new rig.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You guys have got to get the two set up mentality out of your head, I learned first hand this summer that a properly setup asa bow is simply the best thing going for a 3d course. It was my first year with a 280 fps target bow and I was planning on shooting it for the asa shoots and keeping my speed bow for the local stuff and then I noticed that my scores were higher with the asa bow than I had ever shot with the speed bow.

I should have known because the best 3d shooter in my area is 3dshooter25 and he smokes everyone at every local tourney that he goes to and he shoots the same asa bow everywhere he goes. Just a year ago I would have been on the side of speed being unfair because I won around 12 or so local shoots with a destroyer shooting 345 fps but I would have totally beat myself at everyone of those shoots with my specialist because my highest scores and scoring average really went up this year.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

I remember that back in the late 80s 285 was a smokin fast bow. guys with overdraws and using cut down arrows to git arrow wieght down for that speed some were using to light of an arrow and causing blowups. asa came up with a speed limit rule and ibo used an arrow wieght to bow wieght rule.in the name of safety not to even the playing field.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

J Name said:


> I remember that back in the late 80s 285 was a smokin fast bow. guys with overdraws and using cut down arrows to git arrow wieght down for that speed some were using to light of an arrow and causing blowups. asa came up with a speed limit rule and ibo used an arrow wieght to bow wieght rule.in the name of safety not to even the playing field.


Just remembering here, and correctly I hope, the AMO was then present during the early years and the warranties then had heavier than 5 grs. per pound of draw weight. Later, 5 grs per pound of draw wieght came into being, IBO. Soon after AMO ratings were no longer supplied. AND around early 2000, the joint venture or merging of some bow companies under Bear archery called for "truth" in advertising speed. And of course somewhere in the early 2000s AMO became ATA.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Just remembering here, and correctly I hope, the AMO was then present during the early years and the warranties then had heavier than 5 grs. per pound of draw weight. Later, 5 grs per pound of draw wieght came into being, IBO. Soon after AMO ratings were no longer supplied. AND around early 2000, the joint venture or merging of some bow companies under Bear archery called for "truth" in advertising speed. And of course somewhere in the early 2000s AMO became ATA.


.....Sonny yup.......AMO....540grain arrow...60pounds.... 30inch draw


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

it was for safety not to even the playing field.


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## jasonposs (Jul 19, 2010)

why do you have to have a different bow anyhow?ive been shooting the same bow for both orgs for a while and i can tell ya,its alot easier than having to try and say used to 2 different rigs.


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## dartshooter (Mar 14, 2006)

make it 250 feet per second and we can get back to buying 250 dollars bows. Speed kills all right kills the wallet


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## rhyno_071 (Feb 22, 2009)

Why change either organization? I think they're both fine the way they are. I like that they're different, it gives us a change.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

seems a lot of people are happy with 300 fps but guys etc that have 26"ish drw lengths may struggle to reach this. We'll never make everyone happy! just gotta get out there and be the best we can be, work on yardage estimation etc. I 've been neck and neck locally with a guy that shoots 340 ish to my 300. Its been fun and he's beaten me at times but hasn't dominated me. Like I've said before I bet you not all pros even top pros shoot 340fps.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

I never agreed with the speed limit. I know it is supposed to level the playing field but since 90% or archer are right at 28", it already seems pretty level. I think it punishes a persons natural gifts. Most sports are a process of natural selection. Certain people do better in certain sports do to their body's shape and size. Why would want to take away any natural gifts that a person has and blend him in with the average?


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

As far as a level playing field, when I first got in this game all we had were heavy aluminim arrows and reaching decent speed with a 28" draw was hard unless you were willing to shoot 70 lbs. With all of the new lightweight carbon arrows avaliable now, I've had no problems reaching the 280 limit at 62-64 lbs for a couple of years now.

290 won't be much harder, folks just gotta find the right arrow. 30X, X-Cutter, Ultralight 22....all these will hit the speeds depending on if you want to draw light or heavy pounds.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

fletched said:


> I never agreed with the speed limit. I know it is supposed to level the playing field but since 90% or archer are right at 28", it already seems pretty level. I think it punishes a persons natural gifts. Most sports are a process of natural selection. Certain people do better in certain sports do to their body's shape and size. Why would want to take away any natural gifts that a person has and blend him in with the average?


Your confusing a few issues about it. For a person to be running or jumping is one thing...........This is a sport that uses a mechanical device so it is not the same.

I personally do care either way about the speed issue.....If you wish to shoot ibo style....open club rules...you are more the welcome to. 

If you wish to shoot ASA style and rules....your more then welcome to join in. 


But, I will have say this.....I KNOW a quite a FEW guys that do not shoot anywhere in the high speeds that can and have in the past beat everyone that did at shoots. 

If your shooting 340 fps....it just means you miss a lot faster .....a miss is a miss....no matter what speed. Once people figure that little bit of physics, things generally and often do , go a lot easier for them.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Levi morgan and the other top pro shooters are shooting the insane scores with 280 fps bows and I really don't think a 350fps a 320fps bow could do any better even in their hands. I was a stinking speed freek who thought I had a advantage and I was wrong, I mentioned earlier that I bumped up my scores this year by shooting a asa bow and I instantly got the benefits. I didn't have to wait at all for it to happen because the combination of a good target bow along with the right arrows and back tension is simply the best setup known to archery right now. 

The key to 3d is guessing the yardage within a yard every time you step to the stake and then making a good shot, it has nothing to do with owning a flame thrower because you suck and need help to hide the fact that you suck.. the fact that you suck is why you will never beat levi morgan and speed won't help you.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> Your confusing a few issues about it. For a person to be running or jumping is one thing...........This is a sport that uses a mechanical device so it is not the same.
> 
> I personally do care either way about the speed issue.....If you wish to shoot ibo style....open club rules...you are more the welcome to.
> 
> ...


I have shot asa. I have a 29.75" draw. I have never shot my 3d bows grained out. The fastest I have shot ibo is 300-310 fps. I take advantage of a longer draw and buy a bow that offers shootability, not speed. I have shot a lot of ibo with a 280 speed. 

Like I said, 90% of archers have around a 28" draw length so the playing field is near level anyways. That 10% is at least cut in half by 29" draw length shooters and that 10 fps gain won't help them any. So less than 5% is over 29" and of that 5%, most of them probably aren't great shooters. So the speed rule just seems to be unnessasary. Most of the shorter draw guys are the one's who are speed warped. They want the speed bows. Most of use longer draw guys want a more forgiving target type bow. I am the only guy who ordered a specialist from the local shop. Most guys were wanting the d350, invasion or insanity. I find that shooting 5 gpp is a lot harder on a bow with a longer draw. So to make a bow more dependable and consistent, I shoot heavier arrows. If I go to an ibo, most of the 28"ers will be shooting faster than me.


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## blazer36 (Mar 29, 2009)

my way of thinking is if its not broke dont fix it . Asa speed was just fine the way it was and safe . I shoot 27.5 - 28 draw with a contender elite , im not as young as i use to be i cant pull 70lb and wont . There is a fine line between a 10 or 8 when shooting at the lower 12 i will have a hard time reaching 295 0r 297 with this bow and i dont think it will at my draw unless i shoot it unsafe and thats not going to happen either , thats why i was shooting asa, i guess i coud shoot my hunting bow - vector turbo - but it doesnt shoot aswell as the contender, so its the same old thing the short draw archers get the shaft, and most bows made today will not reach those speeds safely with a short draw at 60lb there is no way my contender will , so i guess i will not shoot asa anymore unless i can find a way to reach those speeds at my draw withouut having to be un safe or shooting more lb and it wont be with a mathews! all i can say is shame on asa for doing this to us short draw archers , who love to compete on a level playing feild , now i will have to shoot darts and others can shoot the line pulling arrows with heavy tips !


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

blazer36, it is not creating a unfair playing field. I'm telling you that the speed limit increases are going to eliminate many guys who are going to increase their poundage and tweek other areas just to get the extra speed and that is what is going to screw up their shooting. 

1. their pin float will suffer

2. they will practice judging less because they have a faster bow so why practice judging

3. they will get fatigued sooner drawing higher poundage

4. they will pick arrows that aren't as accurate just so they can get the speeds

5. they will have trouble tuning the arrows because they aren't the right spine or foc or something but they get the precious speed

6. they will add drawlength to get more speed

7. they will use a hunting speed bow to get the speed instead of a good target bow

Im telling you that a good target bow that fits you and is set up to your specifications that gives you the best shooting you can achieve is what you are going to score the best with. To be competitive you must be judging within a yard all day long and that is the key, nothing else is going to make you a winner. They can all shoot good but the guys who can make good decisions shot after shot are the ones who will win and if you think speed is the only thing that is going to help someone you are wrong.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

blazer36 said:


> my way of thinking is if its not broke dont fix it . Asa speed was just fine the way it was and safe . I shoot 27.5 - 28 draw with a contender elite , im not as young as i use to be i cant pull 70lb and wont . There is a fine line between a 10 or 8 when shooting at the lower 12 i will have a hard time reaching 295 0r 297 with this bow and i dont think it will at my draw unless i shoot it unsafe and thats not going to happen either , thats why i was shooting asa, i guess i coud shoot my hunting bow - vector turbo - but it doesnt shoot aswell as the contender, so its the same old thing the short draw archers get the shaft, and most bows made today will not reach those speeds safely with a short draw at 60lb there is no way my contender will , so i guess i will not shoot asa anymore unless i can find a way to reach those speeds at my draw withouut having to be un safe or shooting more lb and it wont be with a mathews! all i can say is shame on asa for doing this to us short draw archers , who love to compete on a level playing feild , now i will have to shoot darts and others can shoot the line pulling arrows with heavy tips !


The 290 fps speed limit is for the upper end of competitors, Open A, Semi Pro, Pro and the such. It is a "test the waters" thing, meaning it may not be chiseled in stone.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

If you think that you can no longer compete because they upped the speed limit 10 fps, you've got bigger problems than how fast your bow shoots. The difference in arrow trajectory between the two is TINY.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

I have to work 13 hour days 5 days a week and every other saturday. I still shoot comp. when i can without the practice 90 percent get to have . so to level the playing field i propose that all those wanting a sleed limit rule to level the field send me 10 percent of your take home pay and then i can retire and practice more therby leveling my playing field. lol ps pm me for my adress to make payments to.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

J Name said:


> I have to work 13 hour days 5 days a week and every other saturday. I still shoot comp. when i can without the practice 90 percent get to have . so to level the playing field i propose that all those wanting a sleed limit rule to level the field send me 10 percent of your take home pay and then i can retire and practice more therby leveling my playing field. lol ps pm me for my adress to make payments to.


Stay working! I am retired and want to make sure I get my S.S. !!!


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## blazer36 (Mar 29, 2009)

Supermag1 said:


> If you think that you can no longer compete because they upped the speed limit 10 fps, you've got bigger problems than how fast your bow shoots. The difference in arrow trajectory between the two is TINY.


and so is the line of a ten or 8 , then why change what works ? 280 is easy to get to for most adult archers 297 isnt with 27.5 draw


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

blazer36 said:


> and so is the line of a ten or 8 , then why change what works ? 280 is easy to get to for most adult archers 297 isnt with 27.5 draw


First off.....no one says you have to shoot 297.....and the rule is just for the men 45yd classes an longer...
Also, the amount the arrow shoot in simple physics is not going to matter....

Its a change....it might stay.....it might not


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

blazer36 said:


> and so is the line of a ten or 8 , then why change what works ? 280 is easy to get to for most adult archers 297 isnt with 27.5 draw


If you're shooting at the line, you're aiming in the wrong spot. But as I said, since you already think you're at a disadvantage and can't compete with a speed limit increase of 9 fps (288 to 297), your mental game is already pretty poor and you won't be able to compete with the big dogs anyways so stay home and save your money.

As I eluded to earlier, I'll never bet on someone that thinks speed matters in an organization to ever win an event in that organization. I don't mean to pick on Jame but since he's one of the only Pros that said his short draw wouldn't allow him to be competitive in the IBO, I'll use him for this example. I firmly believe Jame has all the tools needed to win any 3D event in any organization BUT I doubt he'll ever win an IBO until he deals with his problem with their no speed limit rule. Why do I believe he can win? I believe because he beat Levi at the Classic in 2011 and Levi is usually at or near the top of the IBO shoots and primarily uses the exact same setup that he uses in the ASA. Jame can obviously shoot a shot and judge yardage at the highest of levels (if you win in a Pro Am in the ASA Pro class, it isn't a fluke IMO) and can win anywhere he honestly thinks he can win at.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Supermag1 said:


> If you're shooting at the line, you're aiming in the wrong spot. But as I said, since you already think you're at a disadvantage and can't compete with a speed limit increase of 9 fps (288 to 297), your mental game is already pretty poor and you won't be able to compete with the big dogs anyways so stay home and save your money.
> 
> As I eluded to earlier, I'll never bet on someone that thinks speed matters in an organization to ever win an event in that organization. I don't mean to pick on Jame but since he's one of the only Pros that said his short draw wouldn't allow him to be competitive in the IBO, I'll use him for this example. I firmly believe Jame has all the tools needed to win any 3D event in any organization BUT I doubt he'll ever win an IBO until he deals with his problem with their no speed limit rule. Why do I believe he can win? I believe because he beat Levi at the Classic in 2011 and Levi is usually at or near the top of the IBO shoots and primarily uses the exact same setup that he uses in the ASA. Jame can obviously shoot a shot and judge yardage at the highest of levels (if you win in a Pro Am in the ASA Pro class, it isn't a fluke IMO) and can win anywhere he honestly thinks he can win at.


Pretty much agree throughout. If you go in thinking you can't win, then you won't win. 
Of course, I've noticed many Pros that use the same bow in both ASA and IBO. Seems to me using one bow and really knowing that bow one would do better.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

well i am disapointed. I thought that with all these people wanting to level the playing field in archery that they would have know problem helping out my retire plan so i could practice more. My PM box has no adress request for payments to go to. guess i will keep working and shooting 3-d because i enjoy it.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

J Name said:


> well i am disapointed. I thought that with all these people wanting to level the playing field in archery that they would have know problem helping out my retire plan so i could practice more. My PM box has no adress request for payments to go to. guess i will keep working and shooting 3-d because i enjoy it.


so, you're telling me my pay pal payment didn't show up...again??? dang i hate it when that happens.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

J Name said:


> well i am disapointed. I thought that with all these people wanting to level the playing field in archery that they would have know problem helping out my retire plan so i could practice more. My PM box has no adress request for payments to go to. guess i will keep working and shooting 3-d because i enjoy it.





carlosii said:


> so, you're telling me my pay pal payment didn't show up...again??? dang i hate it when that happens.


Your Socialable Security check probably bounced.... You're retired and got money to give away? How come you didn't tell me when you bought....that bow?


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## blazer36 (Mar 29, 2009)

bhtr3d said:


> First off.....no one says you have to shoot 297.....and the rule is just for the men 45yd classes an longer...
> Also, the amount the arrow shoot in simple physics is not going to matter....
> 
> Its a change....it might stay.....it might not


if it dont matter why change ? i will bet that most guys for the new speed limit have 28 or longer draws ! and if speed dont change anything why change it . Ihave not heard one good answer or any short draw guys who are for it , if its all about judgeing yardage and making a good shot then whats the point ? but i bet most of the long draw guys love it and will be shooting in the upper 290s so there must be an advantage of some kind or they wouldnt do it !


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

blazer36 said:


> if it dont matter why change ? i will bet that most guys for the new speed limit have 28 or longer draws ! and if speed dont change anything why change it . Ihave not heard one good answer or any short draw guys who are for it , if its all about judgeing yardage and making a good shot then whats the point ? but i bet most of the long draw guys love it and will be shooting in the upper 290s so there must be an advantage of some kind or they wouldnt do it !


What don't people understand? The 290 fps was put out to "test the waters." Okay, ASA wants to see how this will float. I could give a dang either way. Proven for years has been 280 fps will get the job done and I'm not changing my setup.


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