# NFAA Split Sectionals Turnaments, Your Thoughts?



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

If it isn't INDOORS....all the regional/sectionals should be held in ONE location.


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

For the Mid Atlantic's the indoor is the only split sectional... I like this because I dont want to dive 8+ hours to go shoot indoors when ive got plenty of places aroud home.... Indoors a split sectional is nice cause basically all indoor ranges are the same 20yds is 20yds..

For the outdoor our sectional is still in one location... You really cant split up an outdoor shoot cause then all shooters arent shooting the same targets... Cause your more likely to 20 a flat 80 than an 80 with a 15* incline up a side hill..


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## PA Dutch (Jan 27, 2003)

*Ditto*

Ditto what Hornet and X Hunter said.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

red1691 said:


> I thought the purpus of a sectional was to get several States together at one location to shoot together at the same time! Do people not want to go out of there on state to shoot? When I can make it to the Sectionals, I enjoy meeting other NFAA from the other States! How do you all feel about the Split Sectional shoots? I know I can not make them all the time, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, work, things I can't work out, but when I can go I want to shoot with new shooters not the sameones I shoot with all year at the State shoots!
> Just would like to hear your thoughts on this matter! Thanks Ricky


I like the idea of multi-location shoots for indoor. The playing field is essentially level for everybody, and you really don't "shoot with" but a couple people, at lease not like you do in a field round. Plus the cost and difficulty of finding a location with enough shooting lanes makes that impractical...

I'm not too big on the idea of multi-location outdoor sectional...I really do like to get to shoot with folks other than my normal group. I also like to opportunity to shoot a course that is different from the 3 or 4 I frequent regularly...In addition, course difficulty, weather conditions, etc could potentially be a big difference maker in the results...If we're going to crown a sectinal Champ, they should have to go toe to toe in the same conditions with the runner up...I'll go when I can, miss it when I can't...

Now I'm not adverse to the idea of adding a sectinal "mail match"...but hosts and manpower may keep that from happening...


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Too much course variation to have multiple locations for sectionals. Same location, same weather conditions, SAME GAME, results in less *****ing.....

Note I did not say no *****ing, just less


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

I believe the only way we can save outdoor sectionals in some parts of the country is to have more than one sectional. The NW section is a perfect example with our long distances between locations plus Alaska. Last year we had 35 archers at sectionals in Idaho, mostly locals. This year we had 20 shooters in Casper, WY... all but 4 or 5 were locals.

wouldn't it be better to have 100 shooters in 5 locations supporting field than to make sure that someone didn't have an advantage when winning their plaque? If the awards are more important than participation we will lose both.


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

*I think CenterX has the right idea*

Here is a Quote from CenterX in another thread:

The multiple host locations for sectionals is a great idea. However they should be spaced 2 weeks apart. This way you can choose to shoot one or both. If you shoot both the best score is the one that counts. This way everybody has equal opportunity to shoot one or both courses. Nobody can cry fowl if they have the same opportunities as everybody else. With both beign on the same weekend you have to commit to one. Environmental factors can be quite different of course. However with a 2 week spread you have a choice and that is a choice you have to live with. Not to mention many may shoot both and increase attendance?? Heck I don't know if I would be apposed to having a host location with every state in the region… 8 states schedule 2 states a week for one month for example?? At the end of the month post the scores…. Lot's of field shooting in my section for a month and I like that 


I think Centerx has put some thought into this and has a great plan! My thoughts are that the first and foremost objective should be to provide opportunity for the greatest amount of archers to compete as possible. "who wins" is a distant second objective, but just the same there must be organization and communication beween all the organizers to provide fairness to everyone.


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

huntelk said:


> Here is a Quote from CenterX in another thread:
> 
> The multiple host locations for sectionals is a great idea. However they should be spaced 2 weeks apart. This way you can choose to shoot one or both. If you shoot both the best score is the one that counts. This way everybody has equal opportunity to shoot one or both courses. Nobody can cry fowl if they have the same opportunities as everybody else. With both beign on the same weekend you have to commit to one. Environmental factors can be quite different of course. However with a 2 week spread you have a choice and that is a choice you have to live with. Not to mention many may shoot both and increase attendance?? Heck I don't know if I would be apposed to having a host location with every state in the region… 8 states schedule 2 states a week for one month for example?? At the end of the month post the scores…. Lot's of field shooting in my section for a month and I like that
> 
> ...


I was hoping the experiment in midwest would convince my fellow NW directors to give it a try, unfortunately the experience was exactly what they said would happen with people fighting and accusing the director and councilman of cheating, all over a 3rd place medal. Imagine the impact if there was a PLAQUE involved... even CenterX's well thought out plan won't fix that.


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## rudeman (Jan 25, 2006)

I like CenterX's plan. We don't have as much a problem in New England, but I can see where going long distances may be cost-prohibitive. Two shoots two different weeks would be the best of both worlds.

As far as the, ah, interpersonal stuff - the rules should be laid out in writing long before the event even happens. Things like who the protest committee(s) are at the locations. What the tie-breaker is. Any other stuff like that.

Are you ever going to eliminate what happened in the MW? Maybe not entirely - but if the rules and procedures had been *published* ahead of time, then maybe some of the grief may go away.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

there's merit in both positions of this discussion.

split sectionals allow more to participate who may not have the resources to dedicate to the travelling. i very much agree with that. indoors it just makes sense.

the downside is that you cannot give the competition an even playing field for the outdoors. weather, it is what it is....nothing can change that, but if one host course has large variations in terrain and another host course is virtually flat, the results are not 'equal'.

you'll also get instances where local directors can tip the scales in their favor. the fix to that is that the nfaa supplies the scorecards with the tournament rules for ties printed on the back. that way there is no opportunity to slant things one way or another. nobody can use the excuse of 'i didnt know' or 'nobody said anything to me about it'

the cards are sent to the nfaa offices to verify and tabulate, and determine flights and places. if any signatures are missing or the scorecard isnt the same as what was sent out, being an identifying watermark and 2 sided printing, they get thrown out. simple as that. you or one/both of the scorekeepers didnt sign......trashed. not the official scorecard that was sent out....trashed. must have tournament director's signature or authorized stamp.....none of either......trashed. if there seems to be a common theme to the trashed cards like unofficial or not signed/stamped by the tournament director, then the nfaa can take issue with it.

if you're going to have remote locations there needs to be a method in place to keep the whole game honest and all competitors have equal opportunity. hold each and person involved with the scoring, running and tabulating accountable.


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

SuperX said:


> I was hoping the experiment in midwest would convince my fellow NW directors to give it a try, unfortunately the experience was exactly what they said would happen with people fighting and accusing the director and councilman of cheating, all over a 3rd place medal. Imagine the impact if there was a PLAQUE involved... even CenterX's well thought out plan won't fix that.


My faith in humanity and the majority of archers still leads me to belive that a split sectional is a great opportunity to at least hold on to the current field shooters and possibly recruit some new shooters. I really hope that the inappropriate actions of two people won't discourage others from trying.

It is important to understand that the issue with the Midwestern Sectional shoot is not a matter of a medal, it is an issue of two men in leadership roles acting dishonestly for personal gain. It is an issue of acting without regard to the integrity of the organization represented. This type of scenario could just as easily happen at a single site with the two men that turned this year's sectional into a disaster.

I truly believe that the majority of us archers are good, honest people with a desire to grow our sport. A "Split" sectional has a very strong potential to grow field archery. The integrity of any competition lies heavily on the leaders, but not solely on them. It is up to the entire group of archers to step up and insure that honesty prevails.


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

rock monkey said:


> there's merit in both positions of this discussion.
> 
> split sectionals allow more to participate who may not have the resources to dedicate to the travelling. i very much agree with that. indoors it just makes sense.
> 
> ...


I think that idea has merit, particularly if you eliminate the Sectional Champion award. Then the individual differences in course difficulty and weather cease to be an issue.

If individual hosts want to issue awards then that would be their perogative, but no sectional awards.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

I have no problem with split sectionals for indoor, but not for outdoor which is exactly what the Southeast is doing for 09. Three locations to be exact. They are even having split sectionals for the 3D. ukey:


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

swerve said:


> I think that idea has merit, particularly if you eliminate the Sectional Champion award. Then the individual differences in course difficulty and weather cease to be an issue.
> 
> If individual hosts want to issue awards then that would be their perogative, but no sectional awards.



Then let's just eliminate sectionals completely. The idea came up at the pro meeting in Yankton, I doubt you would see anyone in the pro division object to sectionals being eliminated.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Which 3 locations (for field) Jim?



Jim Pruitte said:


> I have no problem with split sectionals for indoor, but not for outdoor which is exactly what the Southeast is doing for 09. Three locations to be exact. They are even having split sectionals for the 3D. ukey:


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

i am speaking of the outdoor sectionals only.

unless there is a way to rate a course on an empirical scale, each competitor wont have equal opportunity.

huntelk's issue isnt with the award or the format. it is with the principle of the whole matter. maybe i'm the oddball(yeah, that leaves plenty room for discussion) but i think that anyone in a position of authority should hold themself and their behavior above the rest. not only do they represent their constituants, but the organization too. their attitude and actions are a reflection of the organization. did i mention how much i despise the game of politics in almost everything?

sectional awards were always acknowledged on site, and later sent to the winners. it may have changed in the last several years.

indoors the playing field is even, but outdoors is where the difficulties arise. i dont think there is an easy answer or fix to the split locations for outdoor sectionals.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Which 3 locations (for field) Jim?


Sheaperdsville, KY
Clemson, SC
Gainsville, FL


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Jim Pruitte said:


> Sheaperdsville, KY
> Clemson, SC
> Gainsville, FL


I found it and tried to post a never mind, but AT was locking up on me...thanks Jim...not sure I am going to any of those...maybe Ky


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

If Centerx's model were followed, the only "advantage" one competitor would have over another would be the advantage of having more time or resour$e$ than someone else. Equal opportunity would be provided to compete at both (or all if more than 2) competitions. If the only complaint is that "he has more vacation than I do and can go to both shoots" or "I can't afford to drive to XXXXX" then I feel the organization has done ALL it can to provide a level playing field.

There will ALWAYS be a few complainers that will NEVER be satisfied. I have honestly heard a couple people complain about having indoor sectionals in 2 places because one place has better lighting! ---My response, "DUDE, LIFE IS TOO SHORT......!"


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I see the advantages of a "split" outdoor Sectionals as a possibility of HELPING ATTENDANCE.

With today's gas prices, expensive motels and meals, and TRYING to even get a full weekend off....for a lot of people, it just isn't in the cards anymore to try to travel on Friday evening for several hundred miles to a location clean across the section.

If the people cannot get to the Section...then I see no reason why the "section" cannot make a change and TRY to come to the people...that being the case of multiple locations.

You can have completely different shooting conditions on each half of the SAME course each day anyways...with part of the course being tougher in the morning than the afternoon....with differences ranging in lighting to the wind coming up in the afternoons, to afternoon thunderstorms. I've seen course or target conditions change by the hour as the sun comes around, or the ground/air warms up or a front passes through.

This "uphill" and "downhill" on Joe's course vs. Bill's course...to me is HOGWASH...so what? Same with shooting mano a mano or face2face with your nearest competitor. Many times someone beats your butt from out of nowhere...for 5, 6 or 7 groups away anyways and you never see them all day.

Breaking ties? SIMPLE....Make it the RULE to COUNT X's during the rounds! Nearly all scorecards have the space on them for X's...so USE IT! It is then a clear cut, ONLY ONE WAY OF DOING IT, no questions...just announce it in advance.

I know, some say "nobody ever counts X's"...that, too is HOGWASH...any good shooter worth his/her salt COUNTS X's as a means of determining just how good or bad they are REALLY shooting....but that doesn't even matter..

Simple communication..>TIES WILL BE BROKEN WITH TOTAL X COUNT...if then TIED, then...by HIGHEST HALF OF FIRST 14 targets on the FIELD ROUND (or whatever)....TELL THE PEOPLE how it is to be done...and STICK WITH IT...but ONLY ONE WAY on the iterations...none of this changing around and then blaming "communication problems". CLEAR, SIMPLE, and CONCISE...count the frickin' X's. EVERYONE can do that...if they are told....If you don't count X's and are tied....tough...you didn't do as instructed, so....your BAD.

I'm all FOR the multiple sites for Sectional outdoor tournaments...to help the Sectionals get more participants AND the simple fact of the economics of it all from the attendees' standpoints.

Times have changed, and the NFAA is NOT changing quickly enough to adapt itself to the times...the NFAA always being reactive instead of PROACTIVE.

Sectionals attendance has been a problem for years....and doing it the same way and expecting different results has shown nothing but FAILURE, time and time again.

I don't think the die-harders constant moaning about same conditions and same courses amounts to a real hill of beans anyways....because an "easy come back" on that is simple....those shooting near home...are shooting a FAMILIAR course....YOU shoot one you are familiar with...and Joe Schmoe...shoots one HE is familiar with...so what is the problem...the "advantages" are GONE and nullified. What's to say YOUR uphill 50 is tougher than his sidehill out in the open wind 50? C'mon folks....you live with the conditions and that is that.

Wah! Wa! WAH! All crying...and so much resistance to change by the old die-hards all worried about losing their widdle bitty piece of the pie...that they probably wouldn't have kept anyways.

My 80 is tougher than yours? How do YOU KNOW FOR SURE? It is YOUR opinion...and what if????? Maybe your 30 is WAY EASIER than his.....or his bunny is 45 degrees uphill and yours is flat???? Gimme a break on this same course, same conditions baloney...cuz that is about all it is...baloney and excuse making.

Trust the shot and form, shoot the shot...the DISTANCES are the same...and if you are PROACTIVE and have practiced for ANY conditions....it doesn't really amount to a hill of beans other than LACK OF PREPARATION.

field14:wink::tongue:


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

Field,

You are scaring me! For the first time in the 5 or so years I have been on AT I have to admit agreeing 100% with your entire post. On second thought, maybe *I *am scaring *ME*

And, I have to say I am pleased too that you typed 14 whole paragraphs about an NFAA issue without once using the dreaded four-letter anachronym BHFS (shhhhh, I typed it quitely-can't you tell):wink:

All joking aside, great post!


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

i'm just the devil's advocate. just looking at things from a different perspective and offering solutions and other possible points of contention.

i dont care either way how its ran as long as the rules are uniform and enforced evenly. if i can make it either allowed by time off or funds, i'll be there. right now, i have too much of one and not enuff of the other.

doesnt matter what the course is, the only one i have to compete against is me, and the only one i have to beat is the course. sometimes i win, some(most)times i dont. it all comes out in the end.


all things being equal, a fat person uses more soap than a skinny person.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

huntelk said:


> Field,
> 
> You are scaring me! For the first time in the 5 or so years I have been on AT I have to admit agreeing 100% with your entire post. On second thought, maybe *I *am scaring *ME*
> 
> ...


HuntElk,
There are SOME "powers at large" in the admin of the "organization" that are of the opinion that the fieldman has a "PERSONAL??? agenda that is not in the best interests of the NFAA nor archery in general." So.>>BEWARE about agreeing with the fieldman...lest you incur the WRATH of said "power at large",:wink::tongue:

Just like some complaining about this year's format "letting" the first place finishers "win"...that if the format had been 5 days...it would have been a "different result"...Yep..sure would...HINKY AND JESSE would have won by a WIDER margin! hahahahaha. Yep...knew it a YEAR in advance, everyone shot under the same conditions...and a COUPLE just have to whine and cry about the "format" and only 3 scores counting....like THEY were the ONLY ONES that mattered....ME ME ME ME ME....so much of that that THEY cannot see the forest for the trees and only concern themselves with how THEY can gain...and to heck with the rest of us...

Maybe they should work more on CENTERING THEIR SITE and HITTING THE CENTER....than centering their beefs around the FORMAT as an excuse as to why they got clobbered.

field14


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

The idea sounds good, but there's just too many variables for it to ever work


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

field14 said:


> HuntElk,
> There are SOME "powers at large" in the admin of the "organization" that are of the opinion that the fieldman has a "PERSONAL??? agenda that is not in the best interests of the NFAA nor archery in general." So.>>BEWARE about agreeing with the fieldman...lest you incur the WRATH of said "power at large",:wink::tongue:
> 
> Just like some complaining about this year's format "letting" the first place finishers "win"...that if the format had been 5 days...it would have been a "different result"...Yep..sure would...HINKY AND JESSE would have won by a WIDER margin! hahahahaha. Yep...knew it a YEAR in advance, everyone shot under the same conditions...and a COUPLE just have to whine and cry about the "format" and only 3 scores counting....like THEY were the ONLY ONES that mattered....ME ME ME ME ME....so much of that that THEY cannot see the forest for the trees and only concern themselves with how THEY can gain...and to heck with the rest of us...
> ...


field just let me make sure that I am on the right page with you. You feel that it would be fine if Jesse shot on the course of his choice, Shane shot his choice, Dave shot his choice, and all competitors entered shot on the course of their choice and mailed in the score and we choose a National Champion from there?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> The idea sounds good, but there's just too many variables for it to ever work


For example??? WHICH variables?

The biggest one is, IMHO...the die-hards saying, "it has always been this way so we cannot CHANGE IT." You just GOTTA do it the same way...cuz it won't work any other way.

How do you know if you NEVER TRY IT...or if you try it ONCE and then go back to the same thing that never worked before and expect different results?

All you gotta do is DO IT...explain the rules, enforce the rules, and do it exactly the same way at every location...no if's and's or but's....the SAME WAY PERIOD...and no politicing or "changing things on the fly" just cuz a bozo cries and whines.

Sure is a FACT that the Sectionals participation across the nation SUCKS...and has for years...that would indicate CHANGE, IMHO. Which is long overdue.

field14


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Great, you shoot in the rain somewhere on a hillside while I shoot in the sun and on a flat.....Could easily happen.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

swerve said:


> field just let me make sure that I am on the right page with you. You feel that it would be fine if Jesse shot on the course of his choice, Shane shot his choice, Dave shot his choice, and all competitors entered shot on the course of their choice and mailed in the score and we choose a National Champion from there?


Whoah..nope, you are NOT on the right page with me....MY statements about the NATIONALS dealt with the 3/5 format and NOT anything to do with MULTIPLE LOCATIONS...for a NATIONAL event. What I said was that Shane and Jesse and HINKY would have gotten their position on the leader board the same...whether ALL 5 scores counted or only three....the whuppin' would just have been WORSE is all for the other competitors...and in most cases the board wouldnt have changed much.
I can see where you are leading...but it is NOT the intent to involve multiple locations for the NATIONAL championship...that is a horse of a different color.

Several STATES also have multiple places for their STATE championships...although most stick with one location for outdoors (but for some larger states, multiple sites for state outdoors might be next!)...but STATES are mostly smaller than sections...and yes, I already know that the NATIONAL event means even a bigger pie.

In Sectional events...the CHOOSING is NOT done really by the SHOOTER...that is by BID, just like the Nationals...and most will go to the closest course to them in order to save time, & money....at least they are participating.

The Sectionals are hurting even worse than the Nationals are and people simply aren't traveling to the Sectionals like they used to. The Midwest is thinking out of the box and went with the multiple locations...and it appears that the only BIG gripe is the way TIES were handled.

I'm not going to get into an argument about "choosing courses" to shoot....because IF there are multiple sites, picking and choosing is PART OF THE GAME...and EVERYONE has the same opportunity to pick and choose which course to shoot in their section of states, so that matters not.

Uncleus.....
Or...I shoot in the muck, mud, mosquitoes, gnats, horseflies in the rain on the hillside...and you shoot in the dry, in the sun on a flat course....THAT could happen too!

FLAT courses are NOT as "easy" as people seem to think, and offer little if any "advantage" over hilly ones....last year: Darrington..>TWO 560's in the same group on the SAME DAY on the hunter round. This year, FLAT Yankton...with no "cuts" to worry about...and only ONE 560...the last day by ONE person....

Sure, lots of mid to upper 550's...but a BUNNY shot was missed by the winner too!

People put too much emphasis on courses...and NOT being proactive and prepared in the event of what WILL happen sooner or later and how to handle it.

Too caught up in worrying about the other guy...and not shooting YOUR game...always protecting your turf and trying to find some excuse for your short-comings....exactly what is leading me to see why newbies (and even some old farts) are avoiding competitive archery! PEE AND MOAN, WHINE AND COMPLAIN, and not shoulder responsibility...blame the format, blame the location, blame the bow, blame the cut chart....

Afterall the SHOOTER just can't be at fault....and the other guy would never have beat me IF....WAH, WAH, WAH....

Shoot your own game, shoot your own stick...and let it fall as it may. Even steven...?....never has been and never will be.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR, and it sure doesn't take any hostages.

field14


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## WrongdayJ (May 22, 2008)

field14 said:


> . . .FLAT courses are NOT as "easy" as people seem to think, and offer little if any "advantage" over hilly ones....last year: Darrington..>TWO 560's in the same group on the SAME DAY on the hunter round. This year, FLAT Yankton...with no "cuts" to worry about...and only ONE 560...the last day by ONE person....
> 
> Sure, lots of mid to upper 550's...but a BUNNY shot was missed by the winner too!
> 
> People put too much emphasis on courses...and NOT being proactive and prepared in the event of what WILL happen sooner or later and how to handle it. . . .


Agreed. A relatively flat course does not imply 'ease' at all. Normally, flat courses are more prone to have wind be an issue. I'll take an angle cut on a calm day over a flat course with a variable 10 mph wind any day. 

You 'Man-up' (or 'Woman-up' as the case may be), and you shoot the course. Nobody wants to hear the excuses.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> The Sectionals are hurting even worse than the Nationals


So, why even hold the Sectional tournaments then? What is the benefit to hosting Sectionals across several different venues (particularly or specifically pertaining to outdoors) versus dropping the event altogether? Making field available to more archers? BS. Getting rid of the Sect tournament would free up a weekend that local clubs could instead use to host field tournaments. Same people that would have shot the split Sectionals would still shoot the local, probably more since the local shoot fees are usually considerably cheaper than it costs to shoot a Sectional. Personally I like the Sectionals for exactly one of the reasons stated earlier.....its a chance to shoot with people from other states. Imo the Sectional should be a step up in competition compared to State and a level below Nationals. Spreading them all out, splitting locations, etc., etc., waters the entire tournament down, imo. May as well save people even more money and let them use their State scores for Sectionals as well.....even fewer travel costs that way, should really boost attendance.......

As much as I hate to see the Sectional format go down the drain, if we're going to just start turning the thing into a big mail match then I say just let it die completely. I'd love to use those open weekends to hit some other local field and indoor shoots, or even travel to some other larger scale regional tournaments (Big Sky, Lancasters, KC Shoot-Out, etc..).

>>-------->


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I'd like to see a lot of people at a sectional. That would be great. You've absolutely hit the nail on the head when you say life isn't fair. It boils down to priorities IMO. I've attended the last sixteen sectional outdoor Mids. I set aside money and vacation well ahead of time to do so because that's what I want to do. If you'd rather use yours to fish or whatever, that's YOUR priority...Wouldn't it be nice to have the time and resources to be able to do everything????
Being a dumb old Hillbilly, I just don't understand making the choice of spending thousands of dollars on equipment, and hundreds of hours practicing and shooting and then balk at using time and money to go somewhere to shoot a big tournament.
I've heard it more than once on AT that archery is becoming a rich man's sport. Could that be?????
I'd give the split venue thing a try, but I'd bet my last pair of clean socks it wouldn't fly just because people are human. At least most of them.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*I Agree*

With Uncle Gus on everything he said except the split venue. I think a big outdoor tournament should be shot with everyone at the same location on the same ranges. It is obvious that a large segment of active field archers never attend the Outdoor Nationals for whatever reason. That means that the biggest shoot they attend each year is their Sectional Championships.
Why would you want to dilute it down basically to nothing more than a club shoot? People make time for the things they love. If they don't love field archery why should those of us who do change for those with no serious
commitment to the sport?
Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> With Uncle Gus on everything he said except the split venue. I think a big outdoor tournament should be shot with everyone at the same location on the same ranges. It is obvious that a large segment of active field archers never attend the Outdoor Nationals for whatever reason. That means that the biggest shoot they attend each year is their Sectional Championships.
> Why would you want to dilute it down basically to nothing more than a club shoot? People make time for the things they love. If they don't love field archery why should those of us who do change for those with no serious
> commitment to the sport?
> Jbird


Problem is that in some sectionals....about all it amounts to is a "club shoot" with the same FEW people showing up and little to no "new blood" getting into the mix.

Some sectionals may well even have fewer shooters than some of the state championships of the states within the section! SOME sectionals have more shooters from out of town than the host club has of their own members shooting the tournament! THAT is fact, in a lot of cases...I've seen that myself...host club might get 10 shooters if they are lucky...and people come from out of town.

Sounds contrary to the "separate venues"....but people think that separate venues mean SCADS of them....when in reality...having two spots to shoot the sectionals...say a N and a S location...might well be a shot in the arm. Having more than two would probably indeed create a "club shoot" atmosphere...but limiting it to two? Just might help.

But of course, you'd have the "boycotters" that would say, "It has ALWAYS BEEN the other way, and I'm not going to support this nonsense." Cutting off their noses to spite their faces, IMHO>

Gotta get to thinking out of the box and TRYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, not just once, but several times to allow it to "catch on." The SAME OLD THING is NOT working...and it won't improve either...but of course die-hards and old farts...will boycott anything new that is tried. cuz...."it just HAS to be the old way or no way." 

In the NFAA resistance to any changes are killing the organization, IMHO. It is by far the worst of any competitive sport I've participated in during my lifetime...and getting worse about changes than better.

field14:wink::tongue:


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

CHPro said:


> So, why even hold the Sectional tournaments then? What is the benefit to hosting Sectionals across several different venues (particularly or specifically pertaining to outdoors) versus dropping the event altogether? Making field available to more archers? BS. Getting rid of the Sect tournament would free up a weekend that local clubs could instead use to host field tournaments. Same people that would have shot the split Sectionals would still shoot the local, probably more since the local shoot fees are usually considerably cheaper than it costs to shoot a Sectional. Personally I like the Sectionals for exactly one of the reasons stated earlier.....its a chance to shoot with people from other states. Imo the Sectional should be a step up in competition compared to State and a level below Nationals. Spreading them all out, splitting locations, etc., etc., waters the entire tournament down, imo. May as well save people even more money and let them use their State scores for Sectionals as well.....even fewer travel costs that way, should really boost attendance.......
> 
> As much as I hate to see the Sectional format go down the drain, if we're going to just start turning the thing into a big mail match then I say just let it die completely. I'd love to use those open weekends to hit some other local field and indoor shoots, or even travel to some other larger scale regional tournaments (Big Sky, Lancasters, KC Shoot-Out, etc..).
> 
> >>-------->


I agree with CHpro. 

I fail to see how multi locations for the Sectional Tournaments will save field archery. 

Why would the format draw new participants to field archery?


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

field14 said:


> Problem is that in some sectionals....about all it amounts to is a "club shoot" with the same FEW people showing up and little to no "new blood" getting into the mix.
> 
> Some sectionals may well even have fewer shooters than some of the state championships of the states within the section! SOME sectionals have more shooters from out of town than the host club has of their own members shooting the tournament! THAT is fact, in a lot of cases...I've seen that myself...host club might get 10 shooters if they are lucky...and people come from out of town.
> 
> ...


I think you are putting the wagon before the horse.

Changing the Outdoor National format or the Outdoor Sectional format does little to grow field archery. It may promote the current field archers participation but it will not grow field archery.

We need to focus on getting new blood into a suffering game.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

WV Has Been said:


> I think you are putting the wagon before the horse.
> 
> Changing the Outdoor National format or the Outdoor Sectional format does little to grow field archery. It may promote the current field archers participation but it will not grow field archery.
> 
> We need to focus on getting new blood into a suffering game.


This may be the best post in the thread...and from a guy that is working hard and making it happen (see all the HillBilly threads if you doubt that)...


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Agreed, but how do you get kids out of the malls and off their cells and Ipods and onto an archery range???? How many young people are their in archery that got started in NASP? Has it made a difference?


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Unclegus said:


> Agreed, but how do you get kids out of the malls and off their cells and Ipods and onto an archery range???? How many young people are their in archery that got started in NASP? Has it made a difference?


I don't think it's young people (kids) you need to target. They aren't going to show up to field shoots unless their parents bring them...not likely if the parents don't shoot...it's recreational shooters (backyarders) ...the kind of people that take up golf...and get them to take up archery instead...

Also figuring out a way to get some of the 3-d shooters to come out would help...most who do come back...

Now I won't say I know a magic formula to do that...right now my only strategies are promotion, and a lot of work....


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

WV Has Been said:


> I agree with CHpro.
> 
> I fail to see how multi locations for the Sectional Tournaments will save field archery.
> 
> Why would the format draw new participants to field archery?


I know it is a small sample of the entire country, but the Midwestern split numbers this year proves differently.

2007 Midwestern sectional (one location) 49 participants

2008 Midwestern sectional (split, 2 locations) 76 participants

That shows what, around 55% growth? And this year gas prices are much higher and the economy in general is worse. They asked for a show of hands at KC of the 35 or so competitors how many would have driven to minnesota to compete-I think 3 or 4 raised thier hands. Pretty strong evidence if you ask me:wink:


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

psargeant said:


> I don't think it's young people (kids) you need to target. They aren't going to show up to field shoots unless their parents bring them...not likely if the parents don't shoot...it's recreational shooters (backyarders) ...the kind of people that take up golf...and get them to take up archery instead...
> 
> Also figuring out a way to get some of the 3-d shooters to come out would help...most who do come back...
> 
> Now I won't say I know a magic formula to do that...right now my only strategies are promotion, and a lot of work....


You have it right here Sarge! Everyone always wants to put ALL the focus on the kids. You have to get the parents envolved too!

The part about the 3-d'ers is spot-on as well. I would have to say I for one resemble that remark! The "Spotties" can be a little "stuffy" to say the least. What fun is it being where you don't feel welcome? The national *FIELD* archery association as a whole is not very welcoming to the "chewie" Nation! Look at what Dee Falks and the ASA crew have done to "welcome" spotties-opened up a couple classes to marked yardage! That was a big chance they took and look how it is paying off! The Simms challenge has been a HUGE succes too.

Another fact to add to the "stuffyness" of the NFAA hard-cores......look at the brow beating that even the "spottie" pin shooters get! Is it just me or are they trying to chew their own leg off?

It is going to take some new blood and some open minds to keep Field archery around. It says a lot about what the "chewie" pros think of the NFAA's 3-d program when only two men's pro freestylers and two women's pro freestylers compete at your "National Championship:sad:.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Missouri to Minnesota would be a heck of a trip for a sectional. The idea of traveling about ten hours to Cape May next summer makes me want to puke, but it's a done deal in my mind... Smaller sections maby????


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## Dadpays (Oct 11, 2006)

psargeant said:


> I don't think it's young people (kids) you need to target. They aren't going to show up to field shoots unless their parents bring them...not likely if the parents don't shoot...it's recreational shooters (backyarders) ...the kind of people that take up golf...and get them to take up archery instead...
> 
> Also figuring out a way to get some of the 3-d shooters to come out would help...most who do come back...
> 
> Now I won't say I know a magic formula to do that...right now my only strategies are promotion, and a lot of work....


I'll assure you, it is most definitely the kids you need to target! If not, field archery will die for sure. *I don't own a bow! *(hint, LOL) Yet I have driven my kids to Louisville for Indoor Nationals, to Oklahoma City for JOAD Nationals, to Dallas, to Austin twice, to San Antonio, to Corpus Christi twice, to Temple, to College Station multiple times, etc and I'm thinking of going to the Everglades for the IFAA shoot. No I'm not wealthy, I sacrifice for my kids. How many parents play soccer? Baseball? Football? Basketball? Parents follow kids to whatever they are doing and kids will grow up into adults. Field archery has to be promoted. When did you promote it last (not you personally, I'm talking to each one reading this thread)? Do you attend NAA shoots? Lots of kids there. If not, why not? What about your local 4-H or JOAD clubs? Do you volunteer to help there and promote field archery? Does your state have a fair or expo to promote outdoor activities. Did you volunteer to help out? We have to get off our butts, off the computer, out from behind the tv and actively promote field archery. 3-Ders, field archers, FITA target, FITA field had better start getting along and promoting ARCHERY. Once kids are exposed to it, they can see how much fun it is. Archery is a life skill/sport, as are all of the shooting sports, and maybe golf - a person can enjoy them for life, not so with other sports or team sports. Let's see "show a kid a bow and you have entertained him for an hour, teach a kid to shoot a bow and you have entertained him for life" or something like that.


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> I agree with CHpro.
> 
> I fail to see how multi locations for the Sectional Tournaments will save field archery.
> 
> Why would the format draw new participants to field archery?


I am not sure anything can save field archery, but why would making it hard for people to participate in the NFAA sanctioned events grow field? Why would removing the only distributed organized shoots held by the ruling body for field (the NFAA) grow field?


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> I think you are putting the wagon before the horse.
> 
> Changing the Outdoor National format or the Outdoor Sectional format does little to grow field archery. It may promote the current field archers participation but it will not grow field archery.
> 
> We need to focus on getting new blood into a suffering game.


Participation breeds growth by its nature. New blood = growth they are the same thing. But the body needs to stay alive while we get that transfusion of new blood - when we make it easier for people to participate we stay on life support that much longer. Eventually we have to either grow or die. I think split sectionals buys us time but does not change the fundamental problem that outdoor target archery is in decline


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

CHPro said:


> So, why even hold the Sectional tournaments then? What is the benefit to hosting Sectionals across several different venues (particularly or specifically pertaining to outdoors) versus dropping the event altogether? Making field available to more archers? BS. Getting rid of the Sect tournament would free up a weekend that local clubs could instead use to host field tournaments. Same people that would have shot the split Sectionals would still shoot the local, probably more since the local shoot fees are usually considerably cheaper than it costs to shoot a Sectional. Personally I like the Sectionals for exactly one of the reasons stated earlier.....its a chance to shoot with people from other states. Imo the Sectional should be a step up in competition compared to State and a level below Nationals. Spreading them all out, splitting locations, etc., etc., waters the entire tournament down, imo. May as well save people even more money and let them use their State scores for Sectionals as well.....even fewer travel costs that way, should really boost attendance.......
> 
> As much as I hate to see the Sectional format go down the drain, if we're going to just start turning the thing into a big mail match then I say just let it die completely. I'd love to use those open weekends to hit some other local field and indoor shoots, or even travel to some other larger scale regional tournaments (Big Sky, Lancasters, KC Shoot-Out, etc..).
> 
> >>-------->


Now this page I am on board with. Then get the promotion going on local ranges and invest some time and effort into attracting people to those ranges.


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

swerve said:


> Now this page I am on board with. Then get the promotion going on local ranges and invest some time and effort into attracting people to those ranges.


it doesn't happen - clubs struggle to survive already and now we propose to dump the problem on the clubs? Not likely - that is how the field stakes get pulled in favor of 3D. The economics of 3D are better for the club.


CHPro's idea is appealing only in the sense that we may as well pull the plug on an idea who's time has passed and save ourselves the bother. Unfortunately that will probably also kill Field all together and turn the NFAA into the NIAA. We'll be lucky to keep nationals alive in a few years


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

huntelk said:


> You have it right here Sarge! Everyone always wants to put ALL the focus on the kids. You have to get the parents envolved too!
> 
> The part about the 3-d'ers is spot-on as well. I would have to say I for one resemble that remark! The "Spotties" can be a little "stuffy" to say the least. What fun is it being where you don't feel welcome? The national *FIELD* archery association as a whole is not very welcoming to the "chewie" Nation! Look at what Dee Falks and the ASA crew have done to "welcome" spotties-opened up a couple classes to marked yardage! That was a big chance they took and look how it is paying off! The Simms challenge has been a HUGE succes too.
> 
> ...


First off...it is a double edged sword....and those of us that have been around awhile....have put up with more than you would ever imagine.

Somehow or other the "W" in "We"....got flipped, the the "M" in "Me" took priority across the board...thus ruining the organizations! People only care about THEMSELVES and WINNING...and what is in it....for, yep, you guessed it "ME"!

FIELD was there first...and 3-D came along only in the late 1970's and 1980's. "Stuffiness"...as you call it by "spotties" isn't the ONLY side of the coin!
What about the attitudes of a LOT of the "chewies" that, "3-D is where it is AT...3-D is the only game in town, and we should remove the FIELD targets, cuz there ain't no money in it to shoot FIELD"....

and the 3-Ders think "spotties" are STUFFY? Gimme a break....if it wasn't for the FIELD ranges in the beginning...and FIELD shooters "giving" (or getting voted out) some "room, FOR the 3-Ders"...there wouldn't have been 3-D ranges...so what happened...the 3-Ders took over and many a fine field club and range has gone back to pasture! And "spotties" are to blame...?? NOT HARDLY.

The NFAA for YEARS has changed aroung the BOWHUNTER style to be more accommodating to the 3-Ders and tried and tried again to get 'em to come and play...but nope....no matter what, they will NOT come and play...cuz, "too many arrows", "80 yards is too far to shoot", "rounds take too long"(so hypocritical these days), and on and on and on....but yet...they'll flock to spend 6 or 7 hours to shoot 40 shots...and spend big bucks to shoot only 40 shots over three days? Stuffy?

Now, with regard to ASA...I highly commend Dee Falks for his thinking out of the box. But boy, talk about STUFFINESS! The "die-hard 3-Ders" are still bucking this "marked distance thing"...the die-hard 3-Ders fought this tooth and nail and argued and threatened boycotts and on and on....and some think spotties are "stuffy?" The die-hards are STILL fighting this and always will.

Gotta give ASA credit, though...not afraid to SEE that the game was stagnating and something NEW needed to be added...and then DOING IT....and you know what? After a period of adjustment...it is turning out to the the RIGHT THING, and now people are getting used to it...

The NFAA spottie nation leadership needs to take a few lessons from the ASA...in CHANGING when needed, in being PROACTIVE instead of reactive.

However, archery in general...ALL the organizations, not just the NFAA are "STUFFY" and totally resistant to change...unless it is crammed down their throats directly...as in, "this is the way the game WILL BE PLAYED from now on...so get used to it."

Stuffiness about BHFS comes from the FACT that the NFAA has bent over backwards, spending more time trying to appease the shooters in this division than most organizations would have ever done....Why? Because the NFAA STILL tries to entice more "bowhunters and 3-Ders" to come play field....but it ain't happening....and never will....I've been in the NFAA game since the late 1960's and it has always been, "FOR the bowhunter this, and FOR the bowhunter that"....and you know what? It hasn't mattered one iota...they do what they want to do anyways.

So, you just set it up as to how it is gonna be played....and let the cookies crumble. They'll either show up or not show up...and all the while, the same whines and cries will echo throughout archery..>REGARDLESS of the Organization we are talking about. Archers are just plain fickle...gotta have a "special place" for every individual...round of applause, and all that ME, ME, ME stuff. 


field14:zip:


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

huntelk said:


> I know it is a small sample of the entire country, but the Midwestern split numbers this year proves differently.
> 
> 2007 Midwestern sectional (one location) 49 participants
> 
> ...


Smoke and Mirrors!!

It shows that you made it easier for the current field archers to attend. 

It shows no growth in Field Archery. 

How many shooters shot the first field round they ever shot at your Outdoor Sectional?

After answering the previous question did the multi location promote the growth of field archery?


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

field14 said:


> First off...it is a double edged sword....and those of us that have been around awhile....have put up with more than you would ever imagine.
> 
> Somehow or other the "W" in "We"....got flipped, the the "M" in "Me" took priority across the board...thus ruining the organizations! People only care about THEMSELVES and WINNING...and what is in it....for, yep, you guessed it "ME"!
> 
> ...


Sad part about it is, it just isn't archers. Look at the participation and age demographics in the Elks, Lions, Shriners, Boy Scouts, and numerous other local community orgs. Everything is about me, me, me. You would think that archery in all venues would be thriving because it is a individual sport, more me. But it's not because there is nobody to hide behind when you don't do as well as you think you should.

And maybe it's just me but I think a regional or National tournament should mean something and mean something to participate in. Not be watered down to the point it is meaningless. Just my .02

And pretty much we're always singing to the choir.

Actually though if anyone notices, we have got more going in our little field forum than they do in Mutantville So we are getting there.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Whenever you have 1100+ miles to travel you will never have "sectionals". All you have is locals.

I haven't read this whole thread but I am sure that most everything has been said. So if I repeat something sorry.

Todays economy does not support sectionals as they are now.

How can one compare shooting a field in Darrington to Casper Wy? Two totally different sets of difficulty. Open wind vs mountain hills.

If you choose multiple sites, why not just take all state shoot scores and put them together with the other states in the region and come out with the top in each class. It's the same thing.

Indoor sectionals seem to work. Outdoor field sectionals seem to not. Too sad.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Whenever you have 1100+ miles to travel you will never have "sectionals". All you have is locals.
> 
> I haven't read this whole thread but I am sure that most everything has been said. So if I repeat something sorry.
> 
> ...



I've not shot Darrington, only seen the pictures....and I'm just funning around here....but.....

I'm assuming YOU haven't shot Casper Mountain either....however, Casper Mountain not only has MOUNTAIN HILLS (no, cut out the "hills" part)....but it is ALWAYS windier than all get out up there...and the range is not all in the trees, unfortunately! As far as the "cuts" go...Darrington is probably a 'flat' course when compared to Casper Mountain too. Casper Mountain is where the "fieldman" learned to shoot field...and that is why you never hear me complain about wind, hills, cuts, too steep, bad footing, etc....You LEARN to deal with it...and it is YOU against the COURSE...and NOT you worrying about how your competition is doing...THEY shoot THEIR game and I shoot mine...if they aren't prepared, that is their fault...they gotta live with it.

Heck scores can differ just cuz I had to start for score on the 80, followed by the 50 and then the 65, while another competitor gets to start for score on the 15 followed by the bunny and then the 55! DIFFERENT conditions! That is the way outdoors is, learn to live with it

However, I definitely can appreciate the problems with the NW Section...and you are partially correct...that is exactly WHY I think that at least TWO locations for each SECTIONAL outdoor tournament might be a shot in the arm for ATTENDANCE...and IF advertised and used as a "Step up and get ready for the next level" event...can get some NEW BLOOD into the game.

ADVERTISING is the worst enemy of FIELD shooting and always has been...NOBODY, or at least very few will get off their duffs and brag up field shooting like they used to do. Most of the time it is "did you know there is a 3-D shoot this weekend?" But you RARELY hear, even tho it might be at the same location, "Did you know there was a field shoot this weekend at the same place we had the 3-D last weekend." NOPE....doesn't happen.

So....pardon the grammar here...but "ME" needs to look into the mirror, place the blame right square in "ME" chops as to why so little new blood it coming into the game...cuz, "ME" are the problem, and know what? "ME" are the solution to said problem too!

ME had better start flipping over that "M" back to the "W" in "WE"...or it is the spottie that is going to be out in their back yard shooting "spots"...cuz I"ll tell you right now...most of the 3-Ders WANT YOUR FIELD COURSE so they can set up MORE 3-D's! And you spotties know this is TRUE, too!

field14


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

SuperX said:


> I am not sure anything can save field archery, but why would making it hard for people to participate in the NFAA sanctioned events grow field? Why would removing the only distributed organized shoots held by the ruling body for field (the NFAA) grow field?


Why does a shoot have to be sanctioned to grow field archery. Grow the NFAA by growing the game. Put the Horse back in the front of the Wagon. I doubt that anybody joins the NFAA as a field archery participant prior to trying the game. 

Every NFAA state shoot is sanctioned but I doubt you are getting to many first time on a field course shooter at the state level either.


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

WV Has Been said:


> Smoke and Mirrors!!
> 
> It shows that you made it easier for the current field archers to attend.
> 
> ...


I wish I could answer that question, but I can't since it was MY very first ever tournament and I don't know how many of the othere shooters were there for the first time. I can say that there are about 5 or so of us "chewies" that started shooting a field round once a week just for fun. there was a conflicting 3-d the same weekend or they would have been there also. The sad thing is that after they saw what the Minn. Director and the Sectional Director did to a "newbie" it will be very hard to get them to go next year-but I'm still going to try!


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

off topic, what's a chewie got to do to be invited to one of the Hillbilly shoots? I've never been to maryland before-is is in MD right?


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

offer 'playchecks'.

the 3d world revolves around how much you get for showin up. we've seen it said here, if they dont pay, i wont play.


fine example you make for the kids you so desperately want to bring into the game.


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

huntelk said:


> I wish I could answer that question, but I can't since it was MY very first ever tournament and I don't know how many of the othere shooters were there for the first time. I can say that there are about 5 or so of us "chewies" that started shooting a field round once a week just for fun. there was a conflicting 3-d the same weekend or they would have been there also. The sad thing is that after they saw what the Minn. Director and the Sectional Director did to a "newbie" it will be very hard to get them to go next year-but I'm still going to try!


I don't think you read my post close enough. 

*How many shooters shot the first field round they ever shot at your Outdoor Sectional?*

You admitted that you had been practicing on a local field course. Therefore you was introduced on a local level not on the National, Sectional or State level. You are a perfect example on what it will take to grow field archery.:wink:


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> Why does a shoot have to be sanctioned to grow field archery. Grow the NFAA by growing the game. Put the Horse back in the front of the Wagon. I doubt that anybody joins the NFAA as a field archery participant prior to trying the game.
> 
> Every NFAA state shoot is sanctioned but I doubt you are getting to many first time on a field course shooter at the state level either.


it is not the act of sanctioning, it is the presence of an organization devoted to field that matters.


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

huntelk said:


> off topic, what's a chewie got to do to be invited to one of the Hillbilly shoots? I've never been to maryland before-is is in MD right?


You've been invited. 

Every shooter in the world has been invited.

The HillBilly is in western Maryland. A city called Cumberland(21502).


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> Why does a shoot have to be sanctioned to grow field archery. Grow the NFAA by growing the game. Put the Horse back in the front of the Wagon. I doubt that anybody joins the NFAA as a field archery participant prior to trying the game.
> 
> Every NFAA state shoot is sanctioned but I doubt you are getting to many first time on a field course shooter at the state level either.


WV,
You hit the nail on the head right there!

We have state qualifiers indoors (not outdoors), all this does is go through the motions of getting a score posted for the "aggregates"...it isn't a "qualifier" by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't shoot it, you STILL can shoot in the State tournament? 
Now to the crux of it all. Do you think for a minute that the "State Leadership" will allow a "newbie" that isn't a member of the state association and NFAA to come in and compete for the piddly old medal at this "qualifier"?

NOT A CHANCE....they are told that if they want to compete..they MUST pay up their DUES first! We (myself and several others) have tried time and again to get this change to allow the newbie to COMPETE for AWARDS at the qualifiers.....under the condition that they understand that they get to do this ONE TIME...and if they want the score to count for aggregate and they want to shoot the STATE TOURNAMENT for AWARDS...then they MUST pay their dues AT or BEFORE the STATE TOURNAMENT...or they are not eligible past today for any other awards.

Believe it or not, one member of the board said..."Well, that "is$%()+**", I don't want some unpaid newbie coming in and taking an award from a state member at a qualifier." And...that was the end of the issue!

All worried about an "award" at a qualifier event...$10 registration fee, and a $2 medal! So what has happened? This "newbie" along with several others, both present and FUTURE...walks out the door, never to return again....and has a sour taste in his/her mouth about the State Association and NFAA forever.

Not only does the state not get the $10 for this newbie to shoot, but they also lose him, his family, and his friends to boot...all over a piddly cheap $2 medal that some "die-hard" is all worried about not winning if the "newbie" shoots a better score. This "board member" doesn't realize that by allowing this "newbie" ONE "freebie"...not only will the newbie shoot this event, but he most likely will come to the NEXT EVENT, pay his dues, and BRING HIS FRIENDS WITH HIM to boot.

But no, we cannot ever give a "freebie" at a "state sanctioned" event that is leaading up to the CHAMPIONSHIP...

The proposal has been shot down at least 6 times...can't get 'em to budge on it..."it has always been this way, and we ain't for changing it." Yet the participation levels at the "state qualifiers" is dropping, and participation at the State Championships...indoors and outdoors is abysmal, and dropping every year.

But no..."it isn't broke and doesn't need fixing"..."we aren't gonna change it now."

So goes it with TRYING NEW THINGS....at Sectional or National Level...the old farts are worried about the way it always has been done, won't think out of the box without being forced to, and oh, my heavens, someone might lose a medal if a "newbie" comes in and wins....cuz he shot on course "A", and I shot on course "B" and couldn't keep an eye on him.....

Multiple locations for OUTDOOR SECTIONALS has only been tried a few times...and each time, it is the OLD FARTS that are fighting the change....from 49 participants to 76...while it is terrible for the Midwest Section...it is a HUGE increase in only the first year. but no...the old farts say it "won't work"...so it must be so. They'll fight tooth and nail, after only ONE TRY to get it eliminated...cuz afterall....his 80 yard shot was probably FLAT, and I had to shoot uphill....and I couldn't keep an eye on him.

Why I go is to shoot with different people....well....if YOU can travel and afford it, then to go the OTHER site to shoot; you have that option! Nobody is forcing you to stay close by and shoot that "familiar course"....

BUT...some people don't have the time off, nor especially the money...but if given the chance at a Sectional tournament closer to home...might just attend...and that happened evidently....in the Midwest Sectionals...

Just too bad it was soured by NOT FOLLOWING THE SAME SET OF RULES FOR TIE-BREAKERS that had been ADVERTISED!

field14:tongue::wink:


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

SuperX said:


> it is not the act of sanctioning, it is the presence of an organization devoted to field that matters.


I agree! We would not be having this discussion had it not been for the efforts of the said Org(NFAA).


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

WV Has Been said:


> I agree! We would not be having this discussion had it not been for the efforts of the said Org(NFAA).


Just judging from the continued growth of the Hill Billy and participation of newbies in that event, that it and other events like it will be the salvation of field archery and not the NFAA. They are fresh, new and seem to offer an experience to the new shooter that other events are missing or lacking. I have not shot the event myself, but in talking to people that I have alot of respect for, they have nothing but excellent comments on the Hill Billy shoot.


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## huntelk (Jan 11, 2004)

WV Has Been said:


> I don't think you read my post close enough.
> 
> *How many shooters shot the first field round they ever shot at your Outdoor Sectional?*
> 
> You admitted that you had been practicing on a local field course. Therefore you was introduced on a local level not on the National, Sectional or State level. You are a perfect example on what it will take to grow field archery.:wink:


You are right, I didn't read close enough:tongue:

I though you were meant the "first time ever to shoot a field tournament" I didn't think 4 or 5 trips through a 14 target course in the woods with my 3-d buddies counted:wink:.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

field14 said:


> ADVERTISING is the worst enemy of FIELD shooting and always has been...NOBODY, or at least very few will get off their duffs and brag up field shooting like they used to do. Most of the time it is "did you know there is a 3-D shoot this weekend?" But you RARELY hear, even tho it might be at the same location, "Did you know there was a field shoot this weekend at the same place we had the 3-D last weekend." NOPE....doesn't happen.
> 
> So....pardon the grammar here...but "ME" needs to look into the mirror, place the blame right square in "ME" chops as to why so little new blood it coming into the game...cuz, "ME" are the problem, and know what? "ME" are the solution to said problem too!
> 
> ...


This sentiment is spot on. Field has no one to promote it any more, and that is why it is struggling. Where I am from originally (Western NY near Buffalo), we had a vibrant field arganization back in the 80's. We would have 115 shooters at a local 1 day shoot...

In those day we had a pretty good number of shooters that would shoot where evernd when ever they could promoting the sport to anyone that would listen...and then helping them get started when they showed up the first time...many of those folks have passed away, or faded out for a variety of reasons...they largely have not been replaced, and with them went the exposure they generated...at 1 time we had 9 28 target field ranges within a 45 minute drive of my Mom's house...

3 (I think) of those ranges still operate today and I think only 1 maintains 28 targets anymore...

Here in NC...most folks I talk to (that don't come here) at 3-d shoots etc...have never even heard of field archery...3-d is the only thing they have ever known...since we (read I) built a 14 target course at the club, we are growing...but it takes a lot of work, a lot of talking, and tolerance of a lot of disappointment...but those who you do talk into giving it a try almost invariably come back at some point...

Look what a little promotion through this website has done for the Cumberland bowhunters and their annual HillBilly shoot...that coupled with the opportunity to shoot with some of the world's best (PMFS 1st and 2nd, AMFS 1st place from national were all there)...and people showed up in MD from---

NC, FL, CO, MD, VA, PA, WV, Canada..and probably a few other places I haven't mentioned, and more than 1 was a field newbie...


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

swerve said:


> Just judging from the continued growth of the Hill Billy and participation of newbies in that event, that it and other events like it will be the salvation of field archery and not the NFAA. They are fresh, new and seem to offer an experience to the new shooter that other events are missing or lacking. I have not shot the event myself, but in talking to people that I have alot of respect for, they have nothing but excellent comments on the Hill Billy shoot.


The hillbilly is little more than an NFAA shoot that is well run well organized, and well promoted...its just not sanctioned...

They don't even give awards (see Field14's rant)...

The majority come for the enjoyment of shooting and the comaraderie...all we (as field archers) really have to do is convince people how much fun they can have playing our game...and then make sure they know where the next shoot is...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

psargeant said:


> This sentiment is spot on. Field has no one to promote it any more, and that is why it is struggling. Where I am from originally (Western NY near Buffalo), we had a vibrant field arganization back in the 80's. We would have 115 shooters at a local 1 day shoot...
> 
> In those day we had a pretty good number of shooters that would shoot where evernd when ever they could promoting the sport to anyone that would listen...and then helping them get started when they showed up the first time...many of those folks have passed away, or faded out for a variety of reasons...they largely have not been replaced, and with them went the exposure they generated...at 1 time we had 9 28 target field ranges within a 45 minute drive of my Mom's house...
> 
> ...


PSargeant,
As you know.....
I was in that part of NY in the late '80's and early '90's and remember well the FIELD tournaments up in the area every single weekend from March thru August....Double-T, Niagara, Allied, Evans, Hawkeye, Jamestown, Warren (PA), Oil City (PA), and several others...rotated weekends. Always had a great time around there regardless of the course we went to shoot. An yes, I remember having over 100 shooters most of the time for a LOCAL shoot.

Then...the 3-D craze struck...Jamestown, and Hawkeye were the first to fall, then several others....the old farts gave up, got old, or moved on, and NOBODY picked up the slack. I think Double-T is still going, and maybe Allied has 14, and not sure about Evans....but ALL the courses in PA just across the border from NY are GONE...Nobody left to even bother to spend every weekend setting up and taking down the 3-D's...nobody to do the work, so they folded up. The DEMOTING started in by saying the field shoots were too much work to maintain the range; then it took too long to shoot the rounds...then came NO PROMOTION AT ALL for field, and flyers galore for the 3-D tournaments, and the field shooters sat back and figured it would "burn itself out in a few years"....and it didn't happen that way.

Now, WHY wasn't there the same amount of PROMOTION on AT for this year's NFAA National Outdoor..>regardless of the venue...that there was last year for Darrington...and wow...look at it ALREADY for Mechanicsburg!

WE, the NFAA need to get the WE back..and regardless of where it is located PROMOTE the National Event...just like Mechanicsburg has already started to do.

But no, "some old farts" decided they didn't LIKE the Yankton area...so instead of PROMOTING it, they BAD-MOUTHED IT...and helped to take it down rather than helping to prop it up!

I'll support telling people to attend Mechanicsburg for 2009 just like I should...couldn't care less about the location or the format...it is the NFAA National Outdoor Championship...and THAT is what matters. It should be, "The National Tournament is at (fill in the location) the last full week of July, 2009, you should try to attend. Even though I probably won't attend, I'll still encourage OTHERS to go to that shoot.

It should NOT be "Well, next year's Nationals is in Yankton, and I hate the place, so I don't recommend that you go." 

We "spotties" again become our own worst enemy with promoting the EVENTS for FIELD shooting.

Some want to promote only once every three years; others will whine about the location no matter where it is. Others, well, they'll just bad-mouth the "format" and cry and moan even while in attendance to a shoot they knew the rules for a year in advance.

field14


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

field14 said:


> PSargeant,
> As you know.....
> I was in that part of NY in the late '80's and early '90's and remember well the FIELD tournaments up in the area every single weekend from March thru August....Double-T, Niagara, Allied, Evans, Hawkeye, Jamestown, Warren (PA), Oil City (PA), and several others...rotated weekends. Always had a great time around there regardless of the course we went to shoot. An yes, I remember having over 100 shooters most of the time for a LOCAL shoot.
> 
> ...


And you caught it on the way down...

Double T, Evans and LaSalle are all thats left last time I was there...

The hawkeye demise was really orchestrated by the powers to be at the time in the WNYFAB---they didn't want Hawkeye to schedule 3-ds on Saturdays before field shoots...Hawkeye basically said...OK see ya'...

My uncle lives at the bottom of the Hill Hawkeye is on...they only do traditional now...sad really...you know it was one of the nicest courses you could find...ever get to shoot the lighted half?? He joined Double T to have a place to shoot...

Getting people to come is all about promotion...it was once easy for field archery...it was the big dog (and for a time mostly the only dog)...so it promoted itself...sadly that time has passed and much of the "old guard" is still stuck in their old way of thinking...

Look at the shoots the NFAA (and its front the WAF) puts money and promotion into...Vegas, Indoor Nationals, and Hartford/Pittsburg/Atlantic City...not one of them is a field shoot...and it is the National *Field Archery *Association...even our own org is after the allmighty $...they even made Hartford even further away by doing away with the 40-50-60 round...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

psargeant said:


> And you caught it on the way down...
> 
> Double T, Evans and LaSalle are all thats left last time I was there...
> 
> ...


Yes, I did get to shoot the lighted half a couple of times! What a hoot that was to do! The last target was always the weirdest of the lot, cuz you could see the target clearly, but it seemed to take forever for the arrow to get down the hill and stick 'em in the "X", hahahaha. I had more trouble with that blasted down hill 40 the first time I shot it...I knew the "cut" for it without thinking about it...but always seemed to sqeak one out at 1 o'clock....dad nab it. haha.

I often wondered if Janet and Lee were still in archery or not. Lee shot really well, but Janet was a force to be reckoned with and could beat most of the men anytime. I think she is in the NYFAB Hall of Fame, correct?

I shot a couple of times with Clay. What a fine gentlemen and what a great shot he was too!

I had forgot about La Salle...yet another course I enjoyed shooting!

What is hurting the NFAA right now, you said it in a nutshell, "The OLD GUARD
is STILL stuck in the OLD WAY of thinking"...and by golly they will NOT get out of that thinking...always reactive instead of proactive...and CHANGE? Well THAT might create some WORK and take some EFFORT...isn't it easier to just sit back and let it happen and then try to figure out how to fix it?

Problem is that something broken for 20 years...is rusted shut, and may be beyond repair...so you BUY A NEW ONE! You get innovative, you PROMOTE your products..note the PLURAL...productS...you think outside the box.

You go multiple venues to try to get ATTENDANCE UP....to heck with the "he got this and I got that attitude" and forget the "it has always been in ONE place for the Sectionals...and that HAS to be that way."

You CHANGE the format....which, I admit, the NFAA is trying to do...BEGRUDGINLY, and with RESERVATION.

Then comes the tough part....getting back to pounding the bricks and PROMOTION and FLYERS, and PUBLISHING THINGS, and GETTING THE WORD OUT.

WHY isn't the NFAA getting a "plug" on the Outdoors Hunting programs on TV? The NFAA has a GREAT Bowhunting program of awards...but it is NEVER ADVERTISED or made known.

Why did it take so many years and nearly take an act of Congress to get ALL the names of the attendees at the Nationals published in the National magazine?

What about the 20-pin program the NFAA has had for YEARS....you NEVER see it PROMOTED...in fact, at many shoots, if a shooter asks to buy his 20 pins, the host club..doesn't know what he is even talking about....and then you order them from the State Person...and it takes MONTHS to get them, if ever?

What about the BOWHUNTING AWARDS? NEVER published or advertised, and same scenario for a member that wants to get them...."never heard of them" is the normal answer from the club secretary....and the state person is slow as molasses in January.

MORE PROMOTION....MORE ADVERTISING...and less sitting on the laurels expecting change to just happen while the grass grows and the weeds choke you off.

field14


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

in the northeast ohio area, mainly the greater cleveland area my knowledge of clubs goes back to 1978 with a 25 year break till now.

at that time, there were several shops in the area.

the quiver in n ridgeville
pierce's in columbia station
avon hardware in avon
great lakes archery distributors (g.l.a.d.) closed about that time, also.
naylor's in norwalk.

came a bit later, but bill davis archery. no longer open, but is heavily involved with the loft's joad program.
american sportsman....the store relocated, but the range is gone. long and cloudy story to that one.

since then, all have closed down.

still around...
a newer shop, hadley's in akron. good crew there with some damn fine house shooters.
walker's bowbend in vermilion. a one man show, but the regulars are exceptionally helpful. the bow&barrell winter leagues are held there.

clubs and courses in the greater cleveland area about that time.

south cuyahoga....still goin since they own their land
parma...recently evicted by eminant domain and have purchased land in burbank, oh. range status unknown
black river bow benders.....gone
bow & barrell...lost their lease and are now on park land in berlin heights
columbia game club.......gone and dont know when that happened.
cleveland archery club...got their start during the PAA days. primarily olympic recurve club that shoots a fita format in the metroparks. not sure if they are still around, but the main members are now part of 'the loft' which is very heavy into the joad program.


the greater cleveland area used to be a very archery busy part of ohio. clubs would have shoots almost every weekend and attendance was very healthy. between then and now, the economy killed part of it off, and the rest was done in with the coming of the rubber deer. field is next to dead up here.

because there are almost no shops left, there isnt much available advertising space for shoots. there's not many places to shoot, and not many places to exchange information like there used to be. i remember when my parents had their shop. league was twice a week in the fall and winter. 28 people shot each night....56 a week. 28.....cant even get that many to show up in 2 weeks at some leagues now.

rubber deer games have become almost impersonal events that are almost like drive thru archery. not many people stick around to talk, laugh and congradulate the winners. some of that can be contributed to the casual starts, other reasons also contribute.

people have put a premium on their time. if its not drive-thru, nintendo instant....they dont want to participate. they talk about family time but yet are runnin all over hell's half acre catering to the kids stuff and not participating in a family event. maybe if you got your kids more involved in the archery stuff and it became a family event again, club growth as a whole will increase. archery is a slower sport, yes. but the time spent on the course with your kids is worth it.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

field14 said:


> Yes, I did get to shoot the lighted half a couple of times! What a hoot that was to do! The last target was always the weirdest of the lot, cuz you could see the target clearly, but it seemed to take forever for the arrow to get down the hill and stick 'em in the "X", hahahaha. I had more trouble with that blasted down hill 40 the first time I shot it...I knew the "cut" for it without thinking about it...but always seemed to sqeak one out at 1 o'clock....dad nab it. haha.
> 
> I often wondered if Janet and Lee were still in archery or not. Lee shot really well, but Janet was a force to be reckoned with and could beat most of the men anytime. I think she is in the NYFAB Hall of Fame, correct?
> 
> ...


Yep my dad (Clay) and Aunt are both in the NYFAB hall of fame...

Aunt Jan and Ubncle Lee have been out of shooting for about 10 yrs or so, but are slowly getting back in... when I was back in WNY last I actually saw my uncle in his yard practicing... 
To Qoute you:
MORE PROMOTION....MORE ADVERTISING...and less sitting on the laurels expecting change to just happen while the grass grows and the weeds choke you off.

That's it in a nutshell...IMHO


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## red1691 (Jun 8, 2007)

*alot of thoughts!! Thanks!!!*

So What a lot of you are saying, We need to do MORE PROMOTION and MORE ADVERTISING at the Local levels to get shooters hooked on Field then bring them into yhe State and Sectionals?

In Georgia (were i am) I think we only have 4 Field ranges left, Savannah, Augusta, 2 newer ones in Loganville ( I Think ), and Gainesville. All the Older ones are gone. To me once you have a field Range built, it is easer to mantaine then setting out and pullin 3-Ds every shoot! 

I to ,do think someone should be able to shoot at the State for the first time with out NFAA membership to get them involved. But one time only!!!


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

red1691 said:


> So What a lot of you are saying, We need to do MORE PROMOTION and MORE ADVERTISING at the Local levels to get shooters hooked on Field then bring them into yhe State and Sectionals?
> 
> In Georgia (were i am) I think we only have 4 Field ranges left, Savannah, Augusta, 2 newer ones in Loganville ( I Think ), and Gainesville. All the Older ones are gone. To me once you have a field Range built, it is easer to mantaine then setting out and pullin 3-Ds every shoot!
> 
> I to ,do think someone should be able to shoot at the State for the first time with out NFAA membership to get them involved. But one time only!!!


red1691

I was a GBAA member back in the late 80's. I was stationed at Warner Robins. Shot the state indoor a time or two.


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree with what CHPro and Has Been have been saying.

If you are having trouble with participation with indie state events, how is splitting the sectionals up going to help since you will only have locals anyways? If you can't get the locals to show up at state, how is a split sectional going to be better? More merit for those who can make it?

I know in our region, the distances are very great to get to sectionals. You guys crying about distance back east have no idea. 8 hours? LOL! That sometimes doesn't even get you out of the state out here. 

Our sectional was in Casper Mountain. It is probably a good 14 hours drive from Boise, Idaho.  Wyoming is even a border state.  Obviously I couldn't attend.

I would rather see sectionals go away than to have mail ins and split outdoor sectionals. Split outdoor sectionals is just the first step to an internet league situation. 

HasBeen is right, those with courses can promote field archery without being sanctioned. If the NFAA helps, fine. If not, we have rules and everything we need to have to promote field archery. The game doesn't have to die if the org doesn't keep it alive. Archers can keep it alive and grow it. Those getting into field archery just might join the NFAA and revolutionalize how the org works and promotes. 

At least keep the game alive. We can do that. Keeping the org alive might be harder.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

The idea of having sectionals at multiple locations really is a dumb one . However I stick by my ideas as quoted in the beginning of this post supporting such a concept … Why ???

First of all we have state. For many archers a state tournament is a pretty decent drive and an overnight stay … Then you want them to go to Sectionals .. Which for many IS a drive AND an overnight stay, Then you want attendance at Nationals which cost some big bucks for most … We ask for people to do that Feb-April for indoors and then again a few months later for outdoors..

I'm sorry to say that people are tired of spending time and money driving 6 times over a 6 month period t. Participation at this pace WILL FALL …So what you want to see the DECLINE in?? State. Sectional or Nationals and for which disipline?? Indoors or Outdoors?? As you can see it is going to continue and it is going to continue for GOOD reasons .. People CAN"T commit to all that activity and cost over 6 months 

It's not a matter of what we SHOULD be doing but what we HAVE to do in order to grow . If you can compete in State and Sectional tournament without the time and money investment you might pull a few more shooters. For those die herds that would go anyhow there are more tournaments around to go to under my proposal. 

People can continue to POUND the same 30 - 50 year mentality to today's shooters or you can look for change .. I don’t care... I will shoot what I can until they all go bye bye as they will sooner or later with the continued structure and mentality 

If you do it per my recommendations it will be as fair as any other method. If you HAVE to have multiple locations you have them . If you HAVE to modify the round then you do . If you HAVE to do anything else to get people to pick up a bow and shoot dot's outdoors you do it ………… Whining does not grow ACTION grows


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Good Points Center X*

Bears out exactly what we have done. With static income and rapidly escalating fuel and other costs we have had to make some cut backs.
Since we prefer Field shooting over indoor shooting we have cut back 
on the big trips to shoot indoors. We skipped the indoor sectionals last year
and just shoot our indoor leagues, state indoor, and make one trip during the
winter to shoot Guan Ho Ha which is about 4.5 hours away. We accumulate
money during the winter that allows us to do quite a bit of traveling during the summer for the big field events including the Outdoor Nationals. We will continue to attend the Nationals but only when it is held in a location we think will be fun to attend like Darrington, Watkins Glen, Mechanicsburg, and any location in a cooler climate. We won't spend our entertainment dollars to
go spend a week shooting in 100 degree weather. When costs were lower and the money flowed we would go anywhere they held it but that is no longer the case for us.
Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

red1691 said:


> So What a lot of you are saying, We need to do MORE PROMOTION and MORE ADVERTISING at the Local levels to get shooters hooked on Field then bring them into yhe State and Sectionals?
> 
> In Georgia (were i am) I think we only have 4 Field ranges left, Savannah, Augusta, 2 newer ones in Loganville ( I Think ), and Gainesville. All the Older ones are gone. To me once you have a field Range built, it is easer to mantaine then setting out and pullin 3-Ds every shoot!
> 
> I to ,do think _someone should be able to shoot at the State for the first time with out NFAA membership to get them involved. But one time only_!!!


There ya go! BUT...I'm telling you from experience...getting the old guard to even begin to accept that on any terms is like pulling hen's teeth...for the old guard it would be easier for you to perform a root canal on them!

They are bent that a non-member is NOT EVER going to "take a medal away" from a paid member at a LOCAL SANCTIONED EVENT, and many of the others not even in power, but of the "old guard" are guarding their beloved BE A MEMBER FIRST, then come play....like Fort Knox!

The old guard is still convinced that the way it has always been is NOT BROKEN and does NOT need "fixing" or changed...and the rut is just getting deeper.

field14:tongue::wink:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Here is the way I look at it

State is the biggest tournament of the year in Field around here and turns out a whopping 35 +/- people. About 3 of them will go to sectionals for all the reasons I mentioned. However if Sectionals is more assessable then maybe the number goes up?? And if you can get even a few more (sectional) shoots in a few surrounding states maybe they go up even more 

But are we not just cannibalizing what is out there … Yes but the participation outside of the "backyards" is still increasing. More "average Joes" ( see 35 people above) are getting a taste at a bigger picture that would not EVER attend under the "old" thinking of those 3 who currently attend ?? Of course it is not truly a "regional" shoot However it IS a month of REGIONAL EVENTS that people can attend and WILL attend because it goes for a Regional title….. 

It's about promotion and perception. Call them club shoots and that what they are . *Call it a month long of Regional shoots with Regional battles being fought out in states on every weekend for 6 weeks …. Well then…. It becomes quite another concept all together *
Now with more field shooters having and attending more shoots at more locations. I can only think MORE people will come along for the ride…… Step one complete

Step 2 is how do they stay hooked, How do they bring a few more and what other changes have to take place to make that happen??

Or we sit around bad whine how stupid it is with no real solutions to the contrary


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

I am proud of the fact that even though our state is only about 30 shooters, about a third of them or more are guests. We even have Knarrly come up from Elko, Nevada every year to shoot it...as a guest. It is a long haul for him. We have people who come from Washington, Oregon to shoot as guests. We had a few first timers this year. We had a family come all the way over from the Yellowstone area of our state. It is a long drive. They said they had a great time!! I brought a first timer up with me. He loved it.

We encourage anyone to shoot at our beautiful range and we are very low key and will teach anyone how to shoot field archery. We have a good time and make it fun!! We will grow field archery in this state, but it isn't something that will happen over night.

Others said, you have to change the perception...they are right. Once experienced, most love field archery. It is their perception of it that keeps them away.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

The Swami said:


> I am proud of the fact that even though our state is only about 30 shooters, about a third of them or more are guests. We even have Knarrly come up from Elko, Nevada every year to shoot it...as a guest. It is a long haul for him. We have people who come from Washington, Oregon to shoot as guests. We had a few first timers this year. We had a family come all the way over from the Yellowstone area of our state. It is a long drive. They said they had a great time!! I brought a first timer up with me. He loved it.
> 
> We encourage anyone to shoot at our beautiful range and we are very low key and will teach anyone how to shoot field archery. We have a good time and make it fun!! We will grow field archery in this state, but it isn't something that will happen over night.
> 
> Others said, you have to change the perception...they are right. Once experienced, most love field archery. It is their perception of it that keeps them away.


We do much the same here in NC...unfortunately there are only about 6-8 of us die hard field shooters (a couple years ago it was like 3), but our numbers appear to be growing...when a newbie shows up to a shoot, we make darn sure they have a good time, are treated well, taught the game, and given every opportunity to enjoy themselves...we'll even let them shoot the youth stakes if they're intimidated by the 80 yd shots...funny thing is, once you get people out to try it out, most come back...the hard part is getting them out the first time...after that it's pretty easy (as long as you make their first time a good one...)


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

:moviecorn:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Personally I think that only one location should be used in a CHAMPIONSHIP.
If you are looking to go to multiple locations then just go and shoot these special club shoots that are happening all over the place. ie Hillbilly shoot, Bigfoot shoot etc. I am sure there is a specialty shoot in your own back yard if you look ard enough. If not then start one at yur club and advertise right here on AT. Next thing you will want to do is make the NFAA OUTDOOR CHAMPIONSHIPS at different locatons to suit each individual. Just my thoughts. Ed


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> First off...it is a double edged sword....and those of us that have been around awhile....have put up with more than you would ever imagine.
> 
> Somehow or other the "W" in "We"....got flipped, the the "M" in "Me" took priority across the board...thus ruining the organizations! People only care about THEMSELVES and WINNING...and what is in it....for, yep, you guessed it "ME"!
> 
> ...


Darn I gotta agree with Field here. who'd a thunk.. I have also wondered if the NFAA could get the big sponcers like the ASA,IBO etc would we get more top shooters crossing the lines. Look at Vegas, Lancaster,Redding and the list could go on. Lets face it the reason the TOP guns go to these events is because of $$$. You cannot tell me that 40 arrows over a 2 day period and 6 hours/day is any more fun then 112 arrows/day. We Joes just want to shoot that is why we play the game. Heck I will not drive to my club that is 15 minutes away to shoot 20 arrows. Makes no sense to me. I know that almost all of the 3Ders that have crossed the line have enjoyed the added bonus of shooting a different game and have joined the NFAA and most have switched to shooting Spots on weekend and now only shoot foam on the weeknights at local clubs. Also I beleve archers will shoot whatever is put in front of them be it pie plates, spots fita or foam or whatever. We just need to put the stuff out for them to shoot. BUT IT STILL WILL NOT WORK IF EVERYONE SITS ON THEIR HANDS AND DOES NOTHING. LOOK AT JARLICKER IN NORTH CAROLINA. HE BUILT A RANGE AND WITH A LITTLE WORD OF MOUTH HAS HIMSELF A NICE PLACE TO SHOOT AND A GROWING FOLLOWING. BUT IT NEEDS EVERYONES HELP OR WE ARE GOING TO LOOSE AND I MEAN EVEYONE WILL LOOSE.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

field14 said:


> I see the advantages of a "split" outdoor Sectionals as a possibility of HELPING ATTENDANCE.
> 
> With today's gas prices, expensive motels and meals, and TRYING to even get a full weekend off....for a lot of people, it just isn't in the cards anymore to try to travel on Friday evening for several hundred miles to a location clean across the section.
> 
> ...



I see a lot of what the NFAA should be doing . It is not up to the NFAA. It is in the hands of the directors of the section. They have a sectional meeting & decide where , how & when their sectional is. They can decide how ties will be broken. It is up to the sectional councilman to enforce the rules ,& delegate authority if more than one location. It is the councilman's tourny.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

mr mike, not saying something is wrong or being done underhandedly because i dont know the whole story.

i have a question, and i am not sure the proper way to word it or present it. i agree that the section directors have a meeting, but what is keeping the directors from 'changing the rules' in between the time of the meetings and the time scorecards are turned in?

the way the issue was presented here, one location was given one set of directions and another location a differing set. what can be done or how can some policy be established to keep this from becoming an issue in the future should separate shoot locations continue?

i'm all for more opportunity for competition, but if satellite locations all play under a different set of rules, the future and integrity of the system not only has to be questioned, it MUST be questioned. questioned by the membership and also the leadership.

who is watching the watchers? without anything in print, there lays opportunity to bend the rules.

my personal feeling is that a director or anyone in a position of leadership and authority in any facet of life not only should hold themselves to a higher standard, but must in order to set a good example for all.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> mr mike, not saying something is wrong or being done underhandedly because i dont know the whole story.
> 
> i have a question, and i am not sure the proper way to word it or present it. i agree that the section directors have a meeting, but what is keeping the directors from 'changing the rules' in between the time of the meetings and the time scorecards are turned in?
> 
> ...


I don't know about the other sections, But I have minutes taken & then they are sent to the directors for corrections if any, then a copy of the minutes go to NFAA. That is how all sections are supposed to run.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

brtesite said:


> I don't know about the other sections, But I have minutes taken & then they are sent to the directors for corrections if any, then a copy of the minutes go to NFAA. That is how all sections are supposed to run.


thanks for the answer.

i guess it's a matter of everyone understanding how the rules are, not how they're supposed to be. with the minutes of the directors meeting taken and corrected, rules established things should be pretty straight forward.


'should be' and 'is' are two different things.


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