# Manufacturers..Wal-Mart ?



## the GREY GHOST (Apr 6, 2003)

I don't want to offend any one...I just have one question.How can the small archery shops compete with WALL-MART ?
There are several items for sale at wal-mart that are cheaper than dealer cost....Several name brand items.I can't order 100,000 units like they can so what do I do?
What happens when the small guys go out of business?

The bottom line is,I hope wal-mart installs bow presses,trains workers to tune bows,reserve strings because before long thats the only shop will be open.
Before the old story of good service out does cost,let me say this.I'm tired of cutting wal-mart bought arrows,I'm tired of installing wall-mart bought sights,etc.

My passion is ARCHERY, not money but,this small guy can last only so long.........


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Thats a fact of life that we cant change....... ....But like you I think Wal-Mart is bad on ALL Mom & Pops.....What most dont get is it is cheaper at Wally World ( only by a couple of dollars here) But in the long run when your Pro shop is out of bussiness then who is left????? Wal-Mart personnal???????.....I say lets ban together and stop shopping at the Dough-Marts .........


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## WR (Aug 28, 2002)

*The Grey Ghost*

I hear you loud and clear. When installing or fixing these items for people.. don't forget to charge for your SERVICE. It just might be cheaper to buy from our shops to start with...
I know my shop might be a LITTLE higher, But I'm treated GOOD from the time I walk through the door from people that KNOW whats going on with my equipment. WR


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Most of what walmart stocks is junk. I haven't found any archery stuff I'd pay money for at walmart. (Maybe it's just New England Walmarts?)

Your real competition is online stores like Lancaster. They provide decent service and good prices.

I buy some stuff from my local store but not much. Mainly things that I NEED because I know I'm going to pay a 40% premium to get it now.


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## 1fatarrow (Mar 21, 2003)

*I'M WITH BALD...*

YOU ARE RIGHT ...WAL-MART= JUNK .....A GOOD PLACE TO GET CAT FOOD ................BUT IF YOU WANT REAL GEAR ...LANCASTER ARCHERY SUPPLY


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

baldmountain said:


> *Most of what walmart stocks is junk. I haven't found any archery stuff I'd pay money for at walmart. (Maybe it's just New England Walmarts?)
> 
> Your real competition is online stores like Lancaster. They provide decent service and good prices.
> 
> I buy some stuff from my local store but not much. Mainly things that I NEED because I know I'm going to pay a 40% premium to get it now. *


WALMART SELLS

SIMS PRODUCTS,CARBON EXPRESS,TRUE GOL THAT IS JUST A FEW OF THE NAME BRAND PRODUCTS THEY SELL. SHOPS NEED TO NOT STOCK A BRAND THAT A MANUFACTURER IS WILLING TO SELL TO A MASS MERCHANT FOR A LOWER PRICE!


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## Kitsap (Dec 24, 2002)

*My 2 cents worth . . .*

Mabey all Wal-Marts don't operate the same but the one in my area only carries archery equipment for a couple of months out of the year (until just before the end of bowhunting season). As for their product? Not really interested in most of it as I shoot recurves - traditional style.

Thing is, my local archery shop doesn't exactly get my vote of confidence either!!!!!!!!!!! Reason? Simple, I cannot get the most basic stuff from this guy. I mean like a spool of bow string material (B-50) or even pre-made endless loop strings (they all have to be custom made). He sells wood arrows but he cannot tell me what the spine is for those arrows (as a contrary example: Suzanne St. Charles of Northwest Archery in Seattle not only writes the actual spine on the shaft of her off-the-shelf arrows but has even spined my arrows for me). 

So, if I am going to patronize a local shop it isn't going to be Wal-Mart or the local shop. It is going to be someone (local or otherwise) who gives enough of a damn to learn their trade and to prove to each and every customer that they really do want their business that day! That is why I do business with companies like Three Rivers Archery or Northwest Archery. And by the way, if you are in the Seattle area, Northwest Archery has a very good archery museum (free admission).


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## justshoot (Jul 26, 2003)

Every single wal mart I've ever been in only sells archery
equipment for 2-3 months and it is a very limited selection
of generalized items... heck, the ones I've been in don't 
even carry bows anymore...( arrows, broadheads, camo,
armguards, gloves, a few releases... )I don't know why a 
small archery retailer would even try to compete with 
wal marts product offering.. wal mart shouldn't dig into
a good archery retailers profits if they are a true pro 
shop carrying what the real archer wants..I frequent
walmart every week and I can't tell you how many 
years it's been since I've bought one single archery 
item from wal mart...the online discount archery shops
are your real competition... not wal mart..and most 
pro shops I've frequented even sell arrows cheaper than
wal mart.. and they can offer cut to length and proper
spine for your bow, something the 6 buck an hour wal mart
clerk can't offer...


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## justshoot (Jul 26, 2003)

grey ghost, why would u be tired of cutting wal mart 
arrows and instaling sights...if your pricing your services
fairly to take care of your time and labor, at least it means
a customer is in your shop and will probably buy more
items needed if you carry them since walmart carries 
such a small amount of generalized archery items..remember,
they're in your shop because wal mart doesn't offer the
goods and services you do..at least the wal marts in
my area don't offer very much...


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

justshoot said:


> *grey ghost, why would u be tired of cutting wal mart
> arrows and instaling sights...if your pricing your services
> fairly to take care of your time and labor, at least it means
> a customer is in your shop and will probably buy more
> ...


yep!


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

A comparason is bicycles, you can buy a bike at WalMart at much lower quality than a bike shop. Once it breaks, you have to have to take it to the bike shop for repair. I know most can't afford a high quality bike, but for serious cyclist, that is the only way to go (locally).

Same thing for serious archers. If you're the casual hunter, WalMart might work for you, but active archers need a shop to be involved in. Whether, it's leagues or local hunting info, etc. . .

Also, WalMart just stocks product and does nothing more in the support for our sport. The ideal shop does more the help the growth of archery like JOAD programs for the youth and hunter safety courses.

Conversely, once an archer exceeds the level and knowledge of the shop. I could see where Lancasters and others could play a more dominant role.

Tough spot for shop owners. But I do like the ideals of companies like Hoyt and others that have a system in place for the shop owners to get business in there stores.

My 2 cents


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Matt Z said:


> *.........Tough spot for shop owners. But I do like the ideals of companies like Hoyt and others that have a system in place for the shop owners to get business in there stores. *


Good point Matt Z. I've never really considered that perspective. Now that you mention it, I too like the fact that at least the bow manufacturers support the local pro shops by only offering their bows through them. Are there any other product manufacturers that have pro shop only policies?


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

*In my opinion....*

The ATA (archery trade association) needs to step up and put some kind of limitations on who sells to Wal-Mart and what products are sold to them too...

I know my local shop can't compete with the prices they have on their Sims products so he had to cut waaay back on his stock of Sims accessories... 

I'm not just singling out Sims products, there's other stuff they have that should be bow shop/pro shop only items...


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I can understand why manufacuters like to use Wal-Mart to get their product out to a much larger audience. But, I agree with BowTech Shooter, I believe it is the manufacturers responsibility to help the growth of archery. And shutting down the local shops does not do well for our sport. The percentage of new customers in Wal-Mart surely can't compare to the benefits of a motivated archery shop. Yes, the key word is motivated.


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## Kitsap (Dec 24, 2002)

Matt, you hit the nail on the head ("...the benefits of a motivated archery shop. Yes, the key word is motivated.). What I have learned over the past few decades of being an aware type consumer is that my reactions are very very typical. Specifically I am talking about what makes me want to come to a specific store again and again. Coming into an archery shop (I won't mention the name...) with a problem that shouldn't have taken 15 minutes but being made to wait 90 minutes is a guarantee that the next time I'll be thinking that I will have to do it myself or do without. 

Same thing with sales. There is a hardware store in my town (a small town...) where the owner will cheerfully go out of his way to stock a gasket just because I once asked for it; the result is that I now - even years later - will do all of my hardware shopping at that store regardless of the pricing. The lesson for archery shops is that pricing isn't what drives customers away toward Wall-mart; it is the expectation of reasonable service. 

The big thing that I have noticed about service in small shops like archery shops isn't the dedication of the shop owner but the apparent TRAINING given to the help!!! That hardware store owner I was talking about hires mostly highschool guys and gals but every one comports themselves as though the future of that store matters to them; they will waste no time in making sure that if you want help you will have that help. Can't say the same for all shops and that is the big difference! If your help is providing customers with the same level of service they would give if they were working at Wall-Mart . . . . . well, you do the math. 

I have always been willing to pay a little more to the small business that shows it wants my business and I think the balance of archers and hunters think the same. After all, if we wanted to save money we wouldn't be in this sport in the first place. We would be at home watching the Tube.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: In my opinion....*

How communistic of you.

I believe in capitalism. If small archery shops can't compete in the age of Walmart and the internet then they need to go the way of horse and buggies.

There are shops that are doing well against Walmart and the internet dealers. These shops have learned to compete with Walmart and the internet dealers by providing service, support, education and competitive prices.

I think the Bow manufacturers are being silly by only allowing pro shops to carrying their equipment. So what if some dope buys a fancy target bow from a discount store and has no idea how to set it up. They either sell it to someone who does, or the customer finds a pro shop to help him out.

The pro shop has two options at this point. It can see a sucker walking through the door or a long term customer. The shops that fail see a sucker. If you fleece that guy you are guaranteeing that you will never see him again.

The shops that succeed see a long term customer. You may never see they guy again but he will remember how much you helped him out and he will be back if he stays in archery or he will be able to tell his friends if they ask about where to go if they need help.

Look at all the business Pinwheel 12 and Lancaster do. A large part of that is because they provide good service and competitive prices. There are many threads here on AT recommending both of these retailers. They know how to compete.

I'd rather be a capitalist than a communist.

Pardon me while I don my flame ******ant suit. 



BowTech_Shooter said:


> *The ATA (archery trade association) needs to step up and put some kind of limitations on who sells to Wal-Mart and what products are sold to them too...
> 
> I know my local shop can't compete with the prices they have on their Sims products so he had to cut waaay back on his stock of Sims accessories...
> 
> I'm not just singling out Sims products, there's other stuff they have that should be bow shop/pro shop only items... *


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## BowTech_Shooter (Aug 21, 2002)

*No flame ******ent suit needed...*

I would like to comment on a couple things though...


If you're happy buying a bow via internet or box store, that's fine, I understand, but you know as well as I do that if a person were to buy a bow from say Wal-Mart and it didn't shoot right (because they don't have qualified personel setting them up) this person would be the first person to come on these boards and bash the bow and the company that built it and not the place they bought it... 




> Look at all the business Pinwheel 12 and Lancaster do. A large part of that is because they provide good service and competitive prices. There are many threads here on AT recommending both of these retailers. They know how to compete.



First off, Both of these internet companies are qualified when it comes to knowing what's what. Ask the person behind the counter at Wal Mart what a pair of limb savers are for...LOL...

I don't know what Pinwheel12 can sell solid limbsavers for but Lancaster has them on their web site for $16.99 a pair. Plus shipping of course... Wal-Mart sells them for $11.?? a pair... $5.00+ is quite a difference between the two if you ask me...


I would rather see True Archery Retailers that belong to the ATA make the profit over a box store...

JMHO...


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: No flame ******ent suit needed...*



> If you're happy buying a bow via internet or box store, that's fine, I understand, but you know as well as I do that if a person were to buy a bow from say Wal-Mart and it didn't shoot right (because they don't have qualified personel setting them up) this person would be the first person to come on these boards and bash the bow and the company that built it and not the place they bought it...


That's true. We've seen it before. And we tell them to go to their local pro shop and get some help.

But if I think a bit more about it. These people usually just figure archery is too hard and give up which is probably worse for the sport. Which is the real reason the bow companies only allow pro shops to sell their high end equipment. Sigh...

On the other hand we have more problems with people coming on the board and bashing a bow company becasue they like a different company. 



> First off, Both of these internet companies are qualified when it comes to knowing what's what. Ask the person behind the counter at Wal Mart what a pair of limb savers are for...LOL...
> 
> I don't know what Pinwheel12 can sell solid limbsavers for but Lancaster has them on their web site for $16.99 a pair. Plus shipping of course... Wal-Mart sells them for $11.?? a pair... $5.00+ is quite a difference between the two if you ask me...


Lancaster needs to call Sims and negotiate a better price on Sims products. If Sims won't do it then Lancaster should threaten to drop their products.



> I would rather see True Archery Retailers that belong to the ATA make the profit over a box store...
> 
> JMHO...


I think they do if they know plenty about archery and know how to run a retail business. Too many know one but not the other.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

What the ATA has got to do is stop looking for the almighty buck also and do what is right to keep the mom and pop dealerships going, not just cater to the large corporations and buying groups who solicit only such major stores that will order in bulk. I've been watching this junk develop for a couple of years now, and it's high time the real "pro-shops" ban together to squash this stuff.

Case in point--(got me started now ) At last years ATA I went to a manufacturers' booth to purchase approx. 20 items. I was handed an order form and price sheet after speaking with the owners and rep. While looking at the sheet and deciding, another retailer came over and was talking about purchasing over 100 units of this product...he was a member of one of the "elite" buying groups and thus was handed a different color price sheet than mine. HMMM? I leaned over and looked at his sheet while he was speaking with the owner, and I could not believe my eyes---the same product was over $100 cheaper for him per unit! This is not right IMHO. We are all dealers, and should all get product for the same price! If manufacturers offer incentives only to those large mega-stores and corporations, then soon all that will be left are those and WHO will service the equipment? 

Answer--NO-ONE. 

I've decided to boycott any manufacturer that will not treat me fairly regardless of whether or not I buy one or a hundred, and I call on all other "Pro shops" to do likewise. Sure, we all want to make money, but screwing the small and mid-sized dealers who are the backbone of the industry isn't the correct way to do it IMHO. My internet business thrives only because of one thing---SERVICE after the sale, and commitment to my customers' satisfaction. You will NEVER see Wally World or any other mega store or outfitter offer this, simply because they have no-one with over 35 years experience in the technical side of Archery. Most of their "techs" are college kids working part time until they get their degree in a field they truly care about.

This is a very sore subject for me, and one that must be rectified for our sport to prosper on the local levels in the future. Sorry for the rant. JMHO Pinwheel 12


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Pinwheel …

Yep I agree. That’s why I can not see why the smaller dealers and pro shops do not band together and create there own “buying groups” to combat this problem. If “Walmart” or Cabella s or Basspro gets a discount for purchasing 100 units why don’t proshops from different geographical locations across the country get together and ”buy in bulk ”?? 

If one shop from each state joined the group they could by lots of 100 and only have to stock 2 in each shop. Plus in your example they would see an extra 200.00 dollars in profits for their trouble. Not to mention the increase in traffic because the prices were “just as cheap” 

As a side note . I am looking for some merlin split cable cresents. Could you PM me on price 

Thanks


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## Kitsap (Dec 24, 2002)

My hat is off to you, Pinwheel! Of all of the contributions to this thread (including mine) yours is the most informative and does the best job at identifying a problem (which I really didn't know existed) and suggesting a solution. 

Sometimes it is good to vent on a sore subject. I for one would be willing to cooperate with your suggestions......


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Center X--

I see the angle, but really that still defeats the primary principle I am trying to establish here. All that would do is create the same exact BS that is going on now--pay a premium each year to the "buying group" who in turn greases the manufacturer and promises them a boatload of sales. 

BUT--

What about the smal/midrange dealer who doesn't want to pay yearly "premiums" and likes to do his own shopping or have his staff help him with that? Should he have to pay MORE because he is doing business directly with the manufacturers himself? NO!! He is still a dealer in the same market/industry, and should receive the same pricing regardless. If the manufactuers can make their quotas at one price, there is certainly no need to pork the smaller "Pro shop" dealer with a higher one. If anything, the larger shops and corporations should pay more because THEY can afford it due to higher overall volume of sales per year! JMHO. I for one am not going to be forced to pay "premiums" and go lining others' pockets when I feel the whole idea is ludicrous to begin with.

Everyone (dealers) should pay the same price. If your shop sells more, great! You make more money off of the increased sales volume, even with the same price as other dealers. Incentives should be available to everyone, and not simply based on volume.

The rest is simply "stroking", and needs to be directly addressed. All it is doing is screwing the small and mid-sized Pro shops right out of the industry. 

JMHO. Pinwheel 12


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## maco12 (Oct 17, 2002)

First...BTS, thanks for bringing this thread to my attention.

Now my blood pressure is up  

Pinwheel says it all. Unless we (pro shops) band together and force the industry to change, we (pro shops) will be a thing of the past. 

It has nothing to do with service....the pro shops that are truly pro shops don't have to defend their service ethics and knowledge.....our reputation takes care of that. I've got people from long distances coming to my shop to get set up correctly. So, service has nothing to do with the pricing that manu.'s give a huge store compared to us.

I sell Hoyt's, but I've got to tell you, I'm getting tired of them selling their bows at Dick's and Gander Mtn.....oh that's right, it's not their pro series bows. Well, first, a Magnatec with XT2000 limbs is damn close to a pro series bow. Also, many people only want a Magnatec or MT Sport. However, these large stores sell these bows for a very small amount over what I pay for them. So, yes, as a Hoyt dealer.....I'm pissed.

This is just one example. I find it funny how everytime someone has a problem on this site or others....they get the advice to take it to a proshop. However, these same people are the first to say that they'd rather save a few bucks buying from a large store or internet site than supporting their local pro shop. Well, guess what......the trend that is happening is going to reduce the number of local pro shops significantly. 

I agree with Pinwheel....we as pro shops need to join forces and work with the ATA to define what products are sold to pro shops only and let manu.'s know that their products will not be sold by pro shops if these manu's will also sell to "Wal-Marts" and then price us out of the market.

The other thing to consider is that a local proshop....a good one...is giving back to the archery community in many ways....JOAD, Classes, supporting local clubs, Hunter Ed, Bow hunter Ed/etc......Wal-Mart does not. 

Buying groups suck!!!!! There is no other way to describe it. The amount to join any of them is ridiculous. As already stated, buying groups are not the way to take care of this problem. Sell the damn product for one price and stick to that price. 

I've also got to say that this subject is a "sore subject" that I'd rather not bring up....my blood pressure is bad enough. However, I've seen many make comments about how to run the business that aren't even in the business......Monday morning quarterbacking is BS....even more when it comes to the way some one earns a living.

maco12


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Pinwheel….

I’m with you brother….. I meant the term buying group lightly. What I was suggesting is that a hang full of shops might just want to band together and place a larger order in order to get some breaks. No official “Group” … No “premiums” 

Just some shops banding together to get some breaks and help compete with the local big chain stores. You want them far enough apart however so they are not cutting into each others profits… Even if 5 stores got together it would still help.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

My father-in-law used to own a convenience store gas station. He worked very hard to always find the best deals. He'd go to Sam's Club and buy $25,000 in cigarettes because they were cheaper there than from his normal distributor. One time he bought a rail road car of soda. He had a tractor trailer parked in his driveway and every room in his house piled to the ceiling with cases of soda. It was a pain but he made a ton of money.

You store owners have to think like businessmen. You have to work hard to find and negotiate deals. If it means going to Walmart and buying stock because it's cheaper than what you pay your normal distributor then so be it.

A few stores banding together to get better pricing is a good idea. Don't get lazy. Follow through. And don't be afraid to call the manufacturers. Tell them that the Walmart down the street is killing you and ask for some lower pricing so you can compete. My father in law spent most of his day on the phone looking for deals. He retired at 55 even though he only has a 9th grade education.


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Pin wheel, I think I am one of those "elite" shops you talk about. You are not going to like what I have to say...I have read in some of your posts that you will not even consider jioning a group like ARRO, even though you could then buy at the reduced cost and compete with the "box stores". Whose fault is that? I am involved deeply with the ATA and believe they are going in the right direction, time will tell. Maco, the cost to join ARRO is almost 100% refunded every year back to the dealer, what cost??? Before you guys jump up and down learn the facts. Email me and I will be glad to make a phone call and help you out.
I agree dealers should be and are the back bone of the industry, air laundry on a public site is not the place to talk about it. My $.02 worth.


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## maco12 (Oct 17, 2002)

Joe....Glad you're getting the "elite prices". Obviously ARRO was one of the groups I looked into. Anyone who is a real dealer has looked into ARRO. I agree that they provide a good pricing structure, however, the premiums due to the "club" are a little crazy.....and why do I need to buy stock to get into ARRO??? I understand I get things back if I leave. 

ARRO and the other groups are not the point Pinwheel and I are trying to make. Why should a manu. give a better price...so much so that it kills other dealers....to a big store??? Especially when these stores NEVER have trained staff to support the product??? Why isn't one price the best price across the board?? 

Also, I don't believe we are "airing laundry" and the majority of the posters on this thread are dealers, so we're having a conversation. Discussing what options are available....that is what a talk forum is all about.

Baldmountain.....I understand your point about a being a businessman....however, you may want to walk a mile in my shoes or Pinwheel's shoes before you call either of us lazy. I give your father-in-law a lot of credit, there are not a lot of us that have the want and the drive to run a business. Yes, I do take advantage where possible....I do large sportsman shows to get distributor cost from some manu.'s and many other ways of getting the best price possible. However, I have to agree with Pinwheel that manu.'s should charge one price for all shops/stores.

maco12


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Maco, email me with your number and I will tell you maore abot ARRO. I think your facts are a little off.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

> Baldmountain.....I understand your point about a being a businessman....however, you may want to walk a mile in my shoes or Pinwheel's shoes before you call either of us lazy. I give your father-in-law a lot of credit, there are not a lot of us that have the want and the drive to run a business. Yes, I do take advantage where possible....I do large sportsman shows to get distributor cost from some manu.'s and many other ways of getting the best price possible. However, I have to agree with Pinwheel that manu.'s should charge one price for all shops/stores.


 I didn't mean to call anyone lazy. And to be honest with you I couldn't walk a mile in your shoes. I take great joy in seeing people doing what they love. You guys have chosen a really hard path in life and I commend you for doing what you want rather than just getting by in life.

I just see too many posts on the board where people talk about doing great things but then never follow through. I just want to prod you guys into following through with your informal buying group. I also want to prod you guys into looking beyond the normal channels for products and services to sell.

Looking at this from a manufacturer's point of view. I believe that it is cheaper for them to sell lots of product to Walmart than to sell ones and twos to pro shops. At some level the maintenance of selling to a small shop is not worth the cost. To help defray some of that maintenance cost they charge higher prices to the folks buying smaller quantities.  So I understand why the manufacturers are chaging you more. In exchange you get to sell high end bows that Walmart doesn't get to sell.


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## maco12 (Oct 17, 2002)

Joe....I sent you a PM.

Baldmountain....no offense taken, I understand your point. Quantity cuts down the item cost, however, many customers want those lower cost models that the "Wal-Marts" sell....not everyone is as passionate about archery and just want a starting bow for hunting and probably will never buy a high dollar bow. I'd like to have the opportunity to sell that bow....however, it's hard to argue with someone when they see the same bow I'm selling at a large store for much less than I'm selling it for....actually close to my cost. The only thing that has saved me a lot is that those stores couldn't set a bow up to save their life and many times I've had customers come to my shop to get their bow setup....I have to charge them. Many times, they've actually taken the bow back to the big store when they found out they could've gotten the bow for the same price (or close) since I don't charge for setup when you buy from me.

maco12


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## the GREY GHOST (Apr 6, 2003)

Guys this is why I like this site.Every angle touched.... Thanks.


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## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

I would not be a archery pro shop if I had to feed my family. I started the business as something I wanted to do and when I had the ability to take a early retirement from a major computer business I went full time. I did find that everthing you do has to have value, little things I did for free, now I charge for. I can not compete with walmart, they have about 20 items that are being sold for less than I can buy them. So when they come in with arrows from Walmart that are to long, I get $ .75 each to cut down, to take out the old point and reinstall the old points. They buy a bow there and ask it to be setup with the rest they go at Wally world, it is $35.00...I am a all year dealer, my hours are simple if I am home I am open. I will open up at 9 pm if you have a problem. I also will make appointments for service or archery lessons. A bow does not go out the door unless it is a shooter, I have a 16 item listing of what I setup and or verify to make sure the bow is at peak performance. I also do refletching of arrows. I get in direct from the deer farm, several types of deer lure scent that I package. So I try to make the difference, in selling quality and service...I may not make it in the business, but when I go there will be I am sure a l proshop that will get my customers..


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Joe-

I also know far too well the details of the "terms of service" within certain buying groups, and the direction the ATA is heading. I am firmly seated on my side of the fence, and feel that it should not be neccessary to become a "member" of anything simply to purchase products at (significantly!)better prices than any other dealer! This just is not right!  It certainly isn't about the money, it's the principle. Why should we line others' pockets to get a break/better pricing? Driving those shops with technicians who have been around the industry many decades out of sales competition simply because they are not a "member" or do not buy in the same substantial volumes that other larger stores do is nothing more than a backstab to me. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem IMHO. If you want to rub elbows with these corporations to save money, that's your choice, but look at what it is doing to the OVERALL industry before you put them on a pedestal. I make enough to sustain my living at the prices I receive, and everyone else could also, but I feel it is totally unfair for others to gain significant discounts over my dealer cost simply because they "stroke" others.

As stated, if groups/corporations/manufacturers cater to only the large shops, then the industry at local levels will certainly falter--- with lesser shops throughlout the country there is lesser interest in each community. Lesser interest and places to go to see/try equipment or get things serviced means our sport slowly fades away... This industry has become so "dog-eat-dog" it's ridiculous, and IMO those who follow along with the current lunacy of catering only to the mega-merchants are doing nothing more than helping to sink the ship. As stated, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Money isn't everything. We all have to eat, granted, but the sport itself should come first, not the lining of certain corporations pockets. JMHO. Pinwheel 12


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Pinwheel, I am not sure why you are so dead set. I don't think you understand the whole part of ARRO. Each member buys stock, not much, why because they are ALL OWNERS in the group. Why should a company sell to shop that moves three bows a year for the same price as a shop that sells 300 bows a year? I think you better step back and look at the rest of the world. That is the way sales are in everything you buy. You say it isn't the way it should be, so be it. I have been around for over 40 years in the store and will be here for many more years to come, work smarter, not harder..


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Joe-

I am so dead set against it because not everyone operates on a volume basis, and I see no need to be forced into "purchasing stock" if I am a registered reputable dealer, I've already paid my dues, thanks.. I've been around a long time also in this business, and can tell you that it never used to be this way-- someone simply drummed up another way to line their pockets, and others were suckered in with the incentives. Meanwhile those dealers who live in smaller communities and do not do the same volume as some of the mega-merchants get hammered with increased pricing unless they "pay up" and buy stock? C'mon, the Mafia used to do the same thing years ago but that was called illegal. Sheesh.

It has to start somewhere IMHO, or it will continue to fester and grow. Then there will be less true Pro shops, and more mass merchants. And yes, I do think the guys who sell 3 bows per year should get them for the same price as the guy who sells 300. Why? Because the guy who sells 300 is making the additional profit anyway, far more than the guy who sells 3, so why should they need a "break"?

I'm done with this one, you have your reasons for the way you do business, and I have mine, we'll ahve to agree to disagree, that's all. I will earn a living anyway, without the extra incentive, and I will boycott those who cater only to the mega merchants. Either way, I also will still be here for the future. As stated, for me it isn't all about the money. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

I can agree with that. One point though, the stock you pyrchase when joining ARRo is not "payoff" money. You are purchasing a share of a company that you own. Arro is wholly owned by the members much as your store is owned by you, in ARRO you just have more partners. Shoot straight and have fun.
Joe


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## bowsmith (Sep 17, 2002)

Just to pipe in, I think joining ARRO was a very wise idea for us. I believe the discount is directly related to the fact that you are promising to buy merchandise over the year (ie ordering at Hot Show). You can't just buy two rests, and if they don't sell, you don't get more. You have to be able to make a monetary committment, that could come back to bite you in the rear. Theoretically, if you weren't any good at programming orders you could end up losing money by being a part of a buying group like ARRO. Good Luck and Safe Shootin'.


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## VAREBEL (Jan 5, 2003)

the way you pro shop owners will always prevail is in the ability for people to come into your shop and put their hands on the equipment they've been hearing about and try it out. that can't be done with mail order companies and that goes a long way for me. also when comparing prices, i always consider that in buying from a shop, i can have it now and don't pay shipping. many times when shipping is factored in the prices are very close.
as for the likes of walmart, there's really no competition. some stores stock their archery items better than others i guess but the last time i was in our new "super" walmart and went over to the archery section i just got pissed. a 6 foot aisle allotted for these items had very little in it because at least half of it was taken up by peanuts, beef jerky, spam, vienna sausages, and crap like that. keep in mind that this is a store with a grocery store at the other end of the building. i asked the dept. manager what was up and it was explained to me that some stupid study showed that these were things hunters liked to take with them in the woods to eat while hunting. the stuff they did have was such crap that they'll have a hard time selling it which will lead the ignorant managers to think that there's no interest in archery in our area. with this kind of mindset walmart will never be able to compete with you guys. there are some decent products that are available in some walmarts but if the managers of the individual stores don't order those things then a pro shop is where someone has to go to get them if they want them and don't want to order them.


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## dsportsguy (Aug 30, 2003)

All,
I have had my share of bad experiences from Wallyworld as much as I'm sure some of you have had at Dick's Sporting Goods. Unlike Wally, I do have a press and shooting range and I think I give pretty good service for the average to above average archer. A friend of mine owns a Pro shop down the road and we get along just fine professionally. He can't compete with me on the low end stuff, but we don't stock the high end stuff or offer custom work. When the "expert archer is unhappy with my selection, I send him to the Proshop. For the moderate hunter,beginner, or young guy with a family that can't afford to buy a $1000 Matthews package, my buddy can't compette with me. We get along just fine because we cater to different people. I buy hunting gear from Wallyworld, Dick's, over the net and from my local Mom & Pop. I get the best deal that I can for my hard earned dollar. I can't afford not to. I stand behind my work and my company stands behind ther items better than any Pro Shop owner could dream of. That's why we shop at Sears afterall! There is plenty of room for all. Find your nitch, promise a good value for the dollar, give just a bit more than you promised, and your customers will return. Live long and prosper.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

IN every business there is discounts for buying in larger quanties. Fact of life. There is nothing requiring you to purchase through a buying group. If you chose to not participate, you choose to pay more for the product. It would appear that other dealers have found that the buying groups are beneficial to them. You are making the choice as to what you are paying ofr product. I bet you wouldnt be happy if "Joes archery" started buying direct from Merlin 2-3 bows/year and was selling them for less than you. You would probably ask that Merlin give you a better price/or exclusive dealership because you sell more bows....but isnt that unfair to Joes Archery?....but isnt that exactly what you have set up? Its how business is done. You can choose to join a buying group. buy more stock yourself, or not. Its your business, run it as you like. 
I think that buying groups, bulk discounts, etc are great as they help protect the real archery shops from basement bandits, internet only shops, etc who have limited overheard(certainly less than those with a proper shop) They allow those who sell more product to price their product competitively while at the same time making a proper margin wihtout having to sell for cost just to compete with the guy down the street selling stuff off the web.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

You're talking of two different animals here---Distributors, and Dealers. Problem is, buying groups are essentially putting everyone onto the same platform. This is not right because wholesale distributors have alot more on their plate they have to handle/pay over regular retail box stores or simple dealerships. When you go "wholesale" a new can of worms opens up.

If you are a dealer, you are a dealer. You should get no breaks IMHO whether you buy one or a hundred. Same price across the board for everyone. Basement bandits should be weeded out by the dealership requirement process of individual manufacturers. If they do not want to take the time to do this, it is up to us reputable Pro shops to get on them about it or boycott them. Simple, no? Giving incentives to those who buy in bulk effectively eliminates the distributors also over time by allowing the box stores to essentially become distributors themselves without paying what they should to be one! Another "zing" some of us are getting by these buying groups, thank-you very much.

If you are a wholesale distributor, and want to be registered as such, pay the extra taxes, overhead, etc, (big difference to the feds! Check out what it costs to be a distributor sometime!) THEN I see no problem with getting a lower cost, no. You are wholesaling to the dealers. Like I said, different animals. 

We retail dealers should not try to make the two the same, it just destroys an integral part of our industry. JMHO Pinwheel 12


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## stevej (Jul 1, 2002)

having worked in retail for a number of years most store do not know the cost of the product.

And in many cases automatic mark downs take place to move slow moving stock so th epricing may not be accurate


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## cese (Sep 14, 2003)

You smaller Bow Shop Owners can relax... I know that I and just about everyone I know that bowhunts or is in to Archery knows that we need your expertise and know how and will not buy from Wal mart or other chains, Most of those guys that bring you that cheap stuff will not be in the Sport very long... or they will end up in your shop to be straighted out and learn that it is not the few bucks they saved that is important but the knowledge of what to do with thir equipment.... So please dont look to hard on them " for they know not what they do" .....Cese


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## GKF Tech (Oct 20, 2002)

*Walmart....*

We did SELL to them about Ten years ago ,and we pulled out because of the complaints from our DEALERS.
Yes It was a HUGE Account but felt it was in our Better interest long term to give it up.

Well as you know Our Competition quickly replaced us in Walmart.

Our pricing program with Buying groups and to dealers does NOT give the mass merchant a big advantage.

I hope the Dealers see what GKF did.

WE ARE NOT in Walmart! You Know WHO is!


Walmart is given a huge discount or they will not carry your products.

36 years in Archery I hope we may know better.

GKF Tech


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## NHhunter (Jan 19, 2003)

I'm a firm believer in supporting your local pro-shop. However, I don't understand why a dealer would charge up to 50% more for the same product that a Walmart sells 2 miles up the road. I found a Tru-Glo Bright Sight for my kids bow at Walmart for $9.00 on clearance. When buying new arrows for my bow at a proshop, I noticed that he sold the same sight for $65.00. I don't know about you, but I like to save money. So, bows and arrows- local proshop. Accessories, where ever they are the cheapest........


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

NH Hunter, The reason you may see this is called a lost leader. Big stores will sell somthing fro WAY under cost to get you in the door with the thought that you may purchase somthing else as long as you are there. Small pro shops can not do that. I mark my prices to make a living and that's about it. The question is, "if you buy at other than a pro shop, where will you go to get your equipment fixed and where will you go to learn about shooting?" Wally world and most of the other stores can and will not fit that nich.


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## clayking (Sep 10, 2002)

Ever time I am in Wal-mart my wife can find me in the sporting good section, either in fishing (where I buy stuff) in guns (where once in awhile I find something to buy) or in archery (where I get a good laugh)........no serious archer is going to buy much from the selection that I have seen at my Wal-mart......since my shop is over an hour away, Lancasters is the competition.

If a pro shop is worried that Wal-Mart is going to put you out of business, then you should take the word "pro" out of your vocabulary.............I would worry more about Lancaster's and others like them.

Pro shops have two things to offer in order to sell products....

KNOWLEDGE & SERVICE 

Get both or die...................ck


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

Ck, you are the perfect example, or at least an example. You buy fishing goods from Walmart, what about a local sport shop? How about your guns? The archery department is a laugh to expirenced hunters but maybe not the newbe. Walmarts and super Walmarts have put more small business out of biz than any other store. All you have to do is look at the towns they have entered to see this. BTW, it is hard to sell knowledge, guys expect you to know what is going on and they expect you to tell them for free. All the knowledge in the world will not feed you. At least two times a week some one comes in with a set up from a box store and want advice on how to fix it. Hard to sell advice.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

I think Archery manufacturers need to rethink how they sell their products and who their market is. The biggest reason archery numbers are declining is because no one knows where to find equipment. By selling in Walmart you expose archery to a MUCH broader range of people. As a kid I had no idea there was such a thing as a pro shop. I got all my equipment at KMart. I think a large part of Fred Bear's success was because he got his equipment into places like KMart. I remember drooling over the Bear Whitetail Hunter in KMart.

If pro shops were the only place to find archery equipment archery would disappear. In my area you have to look pretty hard in order to find a pro shop that sells bows. There are a few of them in the area, but they are hard to find.

Also, if the manufacturers think they are best served by pro shops they are sorrily mistaken. I've yet to come out of one of these supposed "pro" shops with a piece of equipment that is put together correctly. Their stuff is so over priced that I won't buy anything unless I absolutely have to have it. Even though my wingspan is 69" which equates to a 27" draw they set me up at 29". I had to buy another set of modules to replace the ones the "pro" shop recommended.

I'm thinking about a new bow but REALLY don't want to go to a pro shop because I KNOW they are going to over charge me and set it up wrong. A local rep suggested a shop that carries their bows. The trouble is that local shop tried to sell me a bitzenburger jig without clamps for $95. ($67 with a clamp from Lancaster's.) I don't want to shop at that "pro" shop. I don't mind paying a bit more for service but twice is too high. I'll probably just get a used bow. 

Having criticized the way things are done I have to suggest something to fix it.

The manufacturers need to take a more proactive approach to selling to the general public. This means selling in large department stores to expose more people to the sport. There should be interactive displays to help people choose the right equipment and training for the shop staff so that they can answer customer questions. Go to more general exhibitions and do demonstrations. To much of archery advertising is focused on selling to archers. You need to sell to a broader audience. From other discussions the 18-35 demographic is probably out of reach. Sell to kids to get them interested in archery. (An ad on nickelodeon? Maybe some ads in Disney magazine or the Boy Scout magazine. (I forget what it is called.)) The other group that seem approachable is the over 35 age group. Target some ads to them.

If you really want to try to get the 18-35 crowd it might be possible if you open a Starbucks or Cafe with a range. Starbucks will get them in the door, the range will peak their curiosity.

There are tons of things try. You just need to think beyond the current archery market. Don't fight over the miniscule archery market when there is a huge untapped market available. Especially since no one is trying to sell to that market.


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## NHhunter (Jan 19, 2003)

Joe,
I'm sorry if you took offense to my post, but until I find a proshop that has a good selection, expert service, a genuine appreciation for my business and doesn't make me feel like it's a privilege for me to be there........I will focus on feeding my family before I feed his. 
You'll have to do better than "if you buy at other than a pro shop, where will you go to get your equipment fixed and where will you go to learn about shooting?". You're holding yourself and every other proshop in high regards. If you want my business, earn it and I will always come back. Don't make me feel obligated. It's that type of attitude that is steers business away. 
You might have a good laugh in your Walmart, but you haven't seen the one here. Simms, NAP, Muzzy, Doinker, PSE, Tru-Glo, Easton, Carbon Express, Scent Blocker, Lohman, Primos, Knight and hale, Scent Shield, Double Bull, Wasp, Tru-fire......... Walmart has the best selection of accesories August-January, for hunting anyway.


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## ChrisG (Jun 2, 2003)

Unfortunately, I am one of those people who has to do a lot of shoppng around for my archery and hunting equipment. And being as such, I do on occasion buy equipment from Wal-Mart. Look at it this way, last season I got a TRU-Fire bear paw x-caliper release from Wally World and only paid 17 dollars on close-out. This same release anywhere else ran around 50-60 before it was discontinued. This year I needed a new sight to replace the one that my "Pro" shop recommended. Tru-Glo bright eyes WITH the afterburner blue pin light,$19.95. Anywhere else 45 for the sight and another 20 for the light. Now I value a good pro shop as much as anyone, but around here there are two, and neither one is very "pro". So I buy where I have to, to save the most money and still be able to hunt every year. IF I had a good pro shop that offered good service and good prices, they would get all of my business even if I had to pay a bit more for some things. Now I do have experience in the small business world. I work in a motorcycle shop that has only four employees. And we see the effects of dealer discounts everytime we order something. Other dealers save tons of money ordering the same things we do, but they are ordering hundreds of units at a time. So I understand where guys like pinwheel and maco are coming from. But I as a consumer am going to spend my money where I can get the biggest bang for my buck. The problem here isn't Wal-Mart, the problem is the manufacturers who will sell their product to the big chains for 1/4 the cost that small shops pay, and then wonder why the smaller shops aren't moving inventory. Here's and idea, if the manufacturers would sell their product to ALL retailers for the same price, then all of the shops could be more competitive and spread the business around. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Like I said, don't get mad at the box-stores, get mad at the manufacturer who is giving them the huge discount. Good luck to all and I hope that my "Pro" shop staff find this site and learn something about how to satisfy the comsumer..
Chris


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

pinwheel I just can't agree with you this time large shops buy large amonts of products. lets say the manufactor has a pay role to make his product if you order 2 items at the ata show lets say that pays for a day of work, so he can make his bills for a day plus profit, now comes the big bad shop how will buy 10 item now I know I would have 10 days or if I can get them to program 100 items they can get a better price now, that keeps me going for that time frame and I can make a better projection of the items I have to buy to make the product and if I buy my supplies in a larger amont then I get a discount from that supplier. 

also big shops have a large inventor to move every year can't keep old stuff on the shelf taking up room.

It's a big circle.

plus alot of small shops will by from a distributor instead of direct.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

MCB_MI

You are hitting on the exact points that we must defeat IMHO---big shops get the significant discount breaks---mid sized and smaller shops do not, because they do not buy a boatload of stock. OK, so now the smaller and mid-sized shops have to put a higher price tag on the same products to earn the same profit on a single item that the bigger stores do. Why is this right again? Hmm, lets' see--- say the smaller-mid-sized store have been in business over 30 years, have many satisfied regular customers, provides superior service, and actually KNOW about the equipment and promotes Archery exclusively.

conversely---

Larger stores/box stores may have been around a few years, but may not have knowledgeable staff or even any techs at all, cater to a wide variety of sports usually, (that's why they are big to begin with) but yet get better pricing on the same equipment that the smaller-mid-sized shop that puts sole emphasis on the particular sport and industry of Archery just because they may buy more? Ludicrous.

The smaller mid-sized dealer NEEDS the break far more than the bigger store does, if anything! If a larger store gets price breaks on ALL of their equipment, then they will make more money and profit than any mid or smaller dealer anyway, so the mid/smaller dealer is at a distinct disadvantage right from the get-go. AND, if the manufacturers keep porking the smaller-mid-sized dealers with higher costs, WHO do you think will be working on your equipment or offering you a place to shoot in YOUR town (or close to it) in the next few years? Face it, there are only so many Walmarts,(yeah, THEY care about archery! yep, uh-huh) and only so many big stores that cater to ONLY Archery-- Darn few in fact. Lancaster as someone mentioned are distributors, not just retail.(as I mentioned in a previous post about distributors) They cover both ends of the spectrum, and do a fine job of it IMHO. I worry more about the Wal marts, Cabelas, Dicks, Joes' Bows, Bait, and Bowling Balls, etc--places who do not offer service after the sale, and those who have their fingers in a bunch of differerent sports---"jacks of all and masters of none" comes to mind here.

I agree---it is the MANUFACTURERS' responsibility to cater to those who are firmly rooted in the sport of archery and those who live and breathe it, no matter their size. If every dealer gets the same breaks, the industry will proper because there will be more customers buying due to lower costs across the board. If anyone thinks that archery will thrive without Pro shops and ranges to shoot, (nevermind true technical servce)then they are looking at little more than their wallet instead of the impact such ludicrous thoughts have on the Archery industry. JMHO, Pinwheel 12


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Pinwheel 12 said:


> *MCB_MI
> 
> You are hitting on the exact points that we must defeat IMHO---big shops get the significant discount breaks---mid sized and smaller shops do not, because they do not buy a boatload of stock.*


You are asking manufacturers to subsidize you because you are a small shop. This is just wrong in an economy based on capitalism. You need to look at the complete value chain in order to understand why big stores will get a discount and small shops NEVER will. The value chain from a manufacturer to consumer has many paths. Here are two.

The first is from a manufacturer to the consumer though a small shop. It is not cost effective for a manufacturer to maintain thousands of accounts with small shops. Especially when those small shops only buy one or two items. So there will be a distributor whose job it is to maintain the accounts for a group of shops and buy product for those shops. There will also be a sales rep. In some cases the sales rep may act as the distributor, but in other cases he may be another link in the value chain. So product goes from the manufacturer to the distributor, to a sales rep, to your shop to the customer. (I may have the order wrong, and there may be more people in the chain, but you get the idea.) Each entity between the manufacturer and consumer needs to make a profit on the item sold.

For a large store the value chain may be as short as: Manufacturer -> Retailer -> Customer. Because the value chain is so short the large store is able to charge less for the product. There are less people to pay in the value chain.

It wouldn't surprise me if manufacturers have to sell to distributors for LESS than what they sell to large retailers because they know that they are going to have to pay more people in the value chain. This means they make even less money selling to small shops than large stores. Add the fact that a retailer buys large quantities of product and you begin to wonder why manufactures want to sell to small shops at all.

You might say that manufacturers should want to sell to small shops for the good of the sport. HA! The more shops I deal with the more afraid I am to even go in to them. There may be some good shops out there but I've yet to be in one. (Well, I know of one reasonable one. They overcharge me. But not so badly that if I have to have something I mind paying. And they always put my equipment together wrong, but not enough that I can't fix it. But I wouldn't trust them to setup a bow, or do major repairs.) I find that most shops are cliquely little collections of archers that make you feel like an uncomfortable outsider every time you are in the shop. If anything most shops are doing more harm to the sport than good.


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

Penwheel 

also a large shop has a larger payrole to make, were most small shops its just the owner and maybe one other person,(seasonal help) what do you consider as a large shop

I also think that these internet archery retailers are doing a dis-service to, they take customers from the small shops & large ones...... Is that right Penwheel12?? manufactures shouldn't sell to internet retailers there just taking it away from the little & large gay's, because they can sell the products for less they have less over head?


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Internet companies are normally affiliated with a Pro shop or distributor or a mass merchant like Cabelas or whomever. They all have overhead unless they are a basement bandit selling from their livingroom. So really that is a moot point in this discussion-- if they sell over the net for less than what they do in their own walk-in facility/ shop, then they are doing a dis-service to themselves as well as any other walk-in Pro shop. Cutting your own throat is not smart in any business.

As far as what I call "big"---- those RETAILERS who get any significant breaks over any other RETAIL dealership-- anywhere, anytime. We are all RETAIL dealers, and should all pay the same. Only distributors who wholesale to dealers and pay the extra overhead/taxes/associated fees with distributorship should get any breaks at all on price no matter the order quantity---big difference betwen retail and wholesale-- and one that should not be bridged IMHO because both are integral parts of our or any industry. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

so you don't think a shop that will buy let say 1200 bows in a year souldn't get them for any less then a shop that ca sell 20?

big shop, big expences! more equipment more employees more tools, more stock on hand, etc. etc.

also dosen't a distributor get it for less then the shop, and if he sells it for the same amont he is making more then that poor little shop owner!!! so this is not a moot subject unless we all get it for the same price.


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## NHhunter (Jan 19, 2003)

Ask your self this......if bow manufacturer's like Mathews, Bowtech and the PSE (Pro Series) can make their products "Pro Shop Exclusive" and still make boatloads of cash, why can't manufactures like NAP, Simms and Easton have "Pro Shop Exclusive" accessories? I think your "beef" is with the manufactures themselves, not the box stores or the consumer. The only way to survive is to carry the best products that aren't available anywhere but a pro shop. Unfortunately, most manufacturers are not going to limit themselves and rely on Mom and Pop to sell a few a year. Everything revolves around the almighty dollar. If GKF refuses to sell to Walmart, they could loose 10's of thousand of dollars that NAP will more than happy to take. You might think GKF is on your side, but I think you will pay for it in the end with higher prices due to lost sales. 

I am really surprised that archery shops last as long as they do. All of the "archery only" shops in this area only lasted 3 years or less. The ones that are still doing well focus their sales on firearms, fishing supplies or bicycles. Kind of hard to make ends meet cutting arrows for nothing or installing peeps for $10. Sound to me like the "buying groups" are the business men of the archery world making a profit as the middle man, while the shop owner, as the enthusiast or hobbyist, struggles to survive.

As Baldmountain stated, some of the shops around here are cliquey. If your not a regular, your an outsider. There is nothing worse than being a bow hunter of 17 years and feeling like an outsider at a shop that sells bowhunting equipment. You start comparing some of few bows on the wall, and he's right there trying to prove he knows more that you will ever know about archery......but is secretly amazed that someone walked through the door knowing what brand and model of the bow without even picking it up, and some of you wonder why archery is on the decline........... It won't be long before archery and it's related sports die completely, the only people not surviving are the people we need to keep the sport alive. The only way that will change is for all of the Mom and Pop shops to ban together and put the manufacturers in their place! Let the box stores sell the junk to the newbies and wannabies (they'll learn sooner of later) and keep the good stuff pro-shop only.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

NH Hunter--

Not all shops are "cliquey". But you are correct, some of them are. I agree with alot of the rest of your post--- If we small and mid-sized Pro shops die, the industry as a whole dies. Wal mart/Cabelas cannot handle it all, contrary to popular belief IMHO.

MCB_MI--

OK, let's crunch some numbers---The small/mid sized shop gets an item for say $100 to make things simple. He buys say 100 of them per year---$10000 total, and sells them for $130 each. He makes $3000 profit on those 100 to pay for his shop expenses, overhead, and eat. He owns a 5000 sq ft shop, is registered thus pays tax, and has 5 employees. He has about 400 regular customers.

The large mega-store buys the same item for say $70 at quantity discount, but buys 1000, or $70,000 outlay. He sells them for the same $130 each as the small/midsized dealer, and pockets $60,000 when he sells them. His store is 40,000 sq feet and he has a staff of say 20. He can easily sell those 1,000 items due to his location and size and amount of yearly clientel, about 5,000 regular customers each year who also help to keep the business afloat by making other purchases and thus adding more money to the pocket over the smaller shop with less than 1/10th of that clientel. 

The larger stores' overhead is higher of course, but look at the difference----you're telling me that the extra overhead is such that he should make $30,0000 MORE on the same item( which is the difference if he paid regular $100 dealer cost like the smaller/midsized shop and he would pocket $30,000 profit anyway for the 1000 items) simply because he is a large shop? Ludicrous! Isn't he getting the additional profit on the higher quantity of items he is selling to begin with, and isn't THAT enough to pay for the extra expenses of overhead and staff? No, he needs MORE? If so, then he is too big IMHO, with too much "fluff". The smaller shop needs the help far more than the larger guy! Just how I see it--- No-one can tell me that a cheaper price is warranted to RETAIL dealers who buy in quantity----distributors, yes, because they are wholesalers.(wholesalers get nailed extra buy the government and are in a whole different category) But retail , no. No way IMO. The smaller/mid-sized guy gets porked every time with this type of thinking. Nothing "free enterprise" about that. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12


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## bowsmith (Sep 17, 2002)

Pinwheel,
Had the owner of the small shop in your example been a member of a buying group, ARRO for example, and paid $90 for the item, he would have just made an extra $1000. Subtract his $250 dues (or whatever they are at now) and he just made an extra $750. Good Luck and Safe Shootin'.


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

Pinwheel 
We could go on and on with this subject. The manufacture / distributor is giving the large shop a break because of the volume of product he is moving, it will cost the manufacture less to make the product because of the volume of material he is buying from the raw material supplier. 

I have no problem with large shops that can supply and support there customers. Box stores don't support there customers, people buy them and then take the equipment to there local archery shop to get setup!! Now the burden falls on the shop on how they treat this customer, granted you should charge for work done and most people can understand this, but they don't like a pissy aditude and being rack over the coals for buying something. Have seen this before, most don't know any better, new to the sport. 
If you can make your customers feel you are treating them fair they will return later, maybe get them started on a league or something like that, Look at the long term, most don't...

Way don't you feel the same way with internet companys that are manufactors or distributors for products, they make a larger profit then most shops. It also takes away from the taxes that the shop has to pay and the internet company's sales don't in most states. But thats a hole nother subject.... right


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

HOGWASH.  Why should the smaller guy have to line others' pockets for something he should receive regardless? (We already hit on this point back at the beginning)

If manufacturers kept things straight across the board price-wise to ALL retailers, the larger stores and middlemen would not be the only ones smiling all the way to the bank, nevermind selling product, and the smaller and mid-sized shops could MAYBE actually make a go of it without getting hammered at every turn and forced out of the industry. Lots of areas do not have any shops at all....if there was one in these areas, even a SMALL one, don't you think it would help promote the sport on a local level?

But, that isn't the "master plan", is it..... Certain industry giants simply want to put the smaller and midsized dealers out and make it super-simple for them if the mega stores are the only ones they deal with to reap the harvest for them. As someone stated, it's all about the money....

To most everyone but me I guess.... I'm done on this one, thoroughly disgusted still about this whole issue. Hopefully some of you can see what I'm trying to put across.

On to better topics.... Good shooting, Pinwheel 12


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Sorry MCB_MI, we were typing at the same time. You're right, we could go on for days....We'll have to agree to disagree, that's all. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

Pinwheel 
Your right there, have to meet you some time, good luck this season.
hope you have a successful year......


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

MCB_MI-


You also have a good season! Best of luck! Yes, I hope we can meet up somewhere in the future, I would enjoy that-- always nice to meet new people who love the sport as much as yourself. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

To all the dealers out there. I was contacted again this year to conduct a seminar at the trade show, this will be the fourth year for me doning this. This year the topic will be in the area of maximizing your dollar. In other words how to keep your doors open, and yes buying groups will be one of the areas covered in the seminar. Look me up and I will be glad to help any one any way that I can.
Joe


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

damned Walmart....I was in the local Wally world the other day and saw a stack of archery targets on sale for $11. I bought every last one of them and put them in the shop for sale. I can't even buy them from my distributor for near that price.
I guess as long as Martin and BowTech continue to sell to pro-shops only, I'll stay in business.
I'd laugh if I saw a bow press in WalMart with some $5 per hour kid behind it.

Being a specialist might keep me busy.

Jon


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## justshoot (Jul 26, 2003)

valid points indeed for the small to medium sized pro shops..
I understand it makes it more difficult for them.. but the fact
is, this is pretty standard in almost all aspects of manufacturing
and distributing of products to dealers... the larger the volume,
the deeper the discount,, it doesn't matter if you're talking 
archery, musical instruments, cars, sporting goods, etc... the
higher volume dealers get the deeper discounts(kickbacks)
which certainly allows them to undersell the small operators
of those same products..this is exactly why I can go to a 
larger city and buy a car from a large dealer 400-500.00 
cheaper than from a small town dealer.. volume discounting..


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## Indychris (Sep 13, 2002)

*My question-*

I know that at various times- and for various reasons- distributors will offer a discount on certain items in order to move them off their warehouse shelves. Maybe it's a seasonal issue, or maybe there are just other products that are moving better that they want to offer more room to stock.

If, as a dealer, you buy a product from that distributor for $5 less than normal, do you then sell it to the consumer who visits your shop for $5 less than the other identical products for which you paid $5 more?

I am guessing NOT.

-OR-

You go to buy some lures. You plan to order 10, but realize that if you buy 12 (maybe a full display) you get a 15-20% discount. You have just received a price break for buying in volume. Do you tell your distributor, "No, just charge me full price- I don't feel 'right' about getting a price break for buying in volume."

Again, I'm guessing that has never happened.

WHY? I assume it is because you are all about making $$$.

Now, if you buy for less, and sell at the same price, is that really any different than how Wal-mart (or any other chain) handles their sales? You are out to make a profit- so are they. Wal-mart buys for less, so they sell for less. At times, you can probably buy for less and yet still sell for the same price (to get higher margins). The argument could be made that the latter is more greedy than Wal-mart! (though I don't really believe that).

Whatever happended to the ideal of finding a niche and filling it? The fact is, the two things that a true "Pro-Shop" can offer than Wal-mart will NEVER be able to match are:

1) Personal knowledge of, and attention to the customer,

-and-

2) Expertise in the area of archery and the abiility to customize to the precise need of each customer.

The amazing thing to me is, I don't hear bicycle shops complaining about how they are going out of business b/c of the likes of Wal-mart, K's Merchandise, etc. In fact, one of our local Bike shops just opened a new location recently. I assume b/c business is Good! Have you ever compared prices at Wal-mart to prices at a Bike Shop. The difference is knowledge, selection and service.

I recently bought my daughter's first bicycle at Wal-mart for $59. I couldn't touch a small bike at the shop for under $200. Now, when she is ready to handle a "real" bike like daddy's Sugar 2 Mountain Bike, do you think we're going to look at Wal-mart for a Huffy? Not a chance. We'll be back at the local shop where she can try out different models, sizes and features.

The point is... Both types of stores serve a purpose. I would imagine that Wal-mart has introduced a myriad of hunters and shooters to the sport of archery that would have never bee inducted into the activity if the convenience and price point weren't offered. I am also convinced that many of those same individuals eventually find themselves in a pro-shop where they find a greater knowledge-base and better service.

Take advantage of what you've got. If you're a shop owner, you're not a victim of Wal-mart. You don't have to work for anyone else, and you have the freedom to do with your shop what you want. You might have to change strategies now and then, and there might even be some shops that can't handle the competition. That doesn't mean that the big chains are the enemies.

Good luck to all!

-----
Indychris


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Walmart friend or foe*

They can be your best advertiser.


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## Indychris (Sep 13, 2002)

Now, THAT'S ingenuity!

And a good reminder, too. I have a hard time coming up with another reatailer who spends as much time and offers as much space as Wal-mart for the support of locat groups and causes. I can't speak for others, but our local Wal-mart has the Boyscouts, church groups etc, at their entrance almost every weekend.

Thanks, Tox!

-----
Indychris


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

TOXO
That's one good article. good positive attitude.

Thats what I mean about the attitude you get from some shops is negitive if you didn't buy your equipment there, they treat you like crap. 

I,ll work on equipment from any were and help how I can, because if the sport grows everyone will benifit


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## NHhunter (Jan 19, 2003)

Indychris,
I'm glad you brought up the bicycle industry............
Last year Schwinn and GT sold out to Pacific Cycles. Pacific Cycles is now flooding their market.......Walmart and Toys R Us with these quality bikes at about half the price of a comparable "bike shop" bike. So, the same thing is starting to happen to the bicycle industry that has happened to archery. The difference being tht you WILL NOT find a Schwinn or a GT in a bicycle shop.


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## Indychris (Sep 13, 2002)

*Okay...*

...so focus on what you DO have. Service. Or pick another line that those chains DON'T carry- like Gary Fisher, Trek, Specialized,etc. There are a lot of options out there to pursue. You know, in my business there is a lot of competition, too. And if I worried about everything that _could_ interfere with what I do, I'd go NUTS!

I guess, personally, I refuse to take lemondade and make a lemon out of it. If things are tough, then let's find another solution. CAN WE FIX IT? YES WE CAN! (okay, I have a four year old!).

Point is, we can roll with the punches, or stress ourselves trying to figure out a way for everyone else to make us happy. As for me- I'm going to try to find whatever work-around I can in order to stay successful.

I think Toxo's method was ingenious, and helpful to all- including wal-mart (apparently, the bad guys on the block, to some).

Good luck, regardless,

-----
Indychris


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Thanks*

This is not the first time either. I did it before got written in Archery Business and this time will be in(I hope) Inside Archery. The first store Sam walton had went bankrupt......who knew that? Promote promote Promote.........some can cost you nothing...........just using the ol noodle......and who leaves archery catalogs in doctors offices or Dentist offices or hospital waiting rooms or who ever sold a bow ina dentist office? I did!!Last X mas......sold a Fred Bear family bow to the receptionist..I even delivered it to her with an arm guard, finger tab, and six arrows for her to bring down for us to cut......while she was there she signed her son up for lessons.....all because I left a archery magazine in her magazine rack!!!!!!!


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## karday (Aug 20, 2002)

Recently atatended a seminar where the speaker had written a Marketing Book Title(???) "what do you do when Sam comes to Town?" Basic premise is Price Only Merchants vs Value Added Merchants. No room at the bottom (price only) but plenty room at the top of the triangle (value added). My concern is that the small pro shops aren't paying attention. They are relying on the PRo Shop only bows and in my area they do not have a try before you buy program. Just doesn't make sense to me with such a fit oriented activity as archery. There explanation is that it is impossible to stock all the different draw lengths. Might be true for Fury-X but most of the others have easily adjustable DL's and many do not need to visit the bow press. Besides I am immediately turned off by any shop that pushes a given brand of equipment. Despite the Matthews Hoyt feud all 50 or so Manufacturers of compounds manufacturer a quality product and the rest is subjective. To me any shop that has no in store place to shoot a bow better be selling something other than archery gear to stay in business. I owned a 1 hour photo lab for 12 years next to a grocery store and we averaged 50 rolls per day at a higher price. Value Added Marketing is how you survive Sam. I may have to drive 5-6 hours to a store I found that has a range and advertises a come spend the day trying before you buy, but it beats the Russian roulette I have been forced to use to date.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Good points*

You hit it right on the head. At the shop I am associated with you can try any bow. Also I(personally sell by feel) Pick up all the bows and tell me what feels best in your hand. Forget the notion a ABC bow is going 298 fps....but the DEF bow is going 225 fps. If it does not feel right......you will never shoot it right.....Speed is far over rated. feel, forgiveness and that bow seeming right for you is all that counts. Any compound at 55lbs will kill any large game animal in North America!!!!!!! But again I was a dept mgr at Walmart I know how they work, think and promote. It is price. Do not try to beat them at their game......you WILL LOSE!!!!!...Change the game.......change your attitude......develope different tactics.


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## Bowdoc (Jan 22, 2003)

*Walmart*

Ladies and gentlemen I have dealt with this problem for 15 years and this is an on-going problem. The discount stores and the box stores will be here for ever along with the basement bandits. now i am not saying all of the dealers that operate out of their homes are these bandits but we have a large amount that are out there selling at small percentages over cost to help out them selves and their buddies with cheap equipment. then again we have legit dealers running out of their homes making a fair living doing it. buying groups are a great asset to dealers if they take advantage in the discounts and make some money with those products not discount them to match the marts. if the box stores bother you because they sell the product and you have to do the work then you haven't figured out how to work them to your advantage either. we charge $45.00 per hour for any work on bows brought in from these places and you know what by the time they get to us they are so fed up ith the service and quality of work the don't bat an eye when we tell them what we charge.

Learn to use them not fight them.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Just out of curiousity I stopped in at Walmart and The Sports Authority and priced archery equipment. There was not a SINGLE item I could find that was cheaper than the two pro shops I deal with and certainly not cheaper than any of the Net companies I order from.

I also have a wholesale account with a MAJOR sporting goods distributor that takes care of all the True Value hardware stores and I know that both Walmart and the Pro Shops are making plenty of money of these accessories. I stay out of buying my stuff from the wholesaler because my quantity is so small that I don't need to bother them with it. I also don't sell archery stuff in my store because we don't believe and selling stuff without product knowledge...I happen to be the only archer.


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## karday (Aug 20, 2002)

TOXO: I am still smiling after seeing the article re the WAL MART reversal project. This is taking the point of the seminar I attended well beyonfd its' intent. Awesome! Interesting that in one of my MBA classes they made the point that you can not stand outside of any Wal-Mart and gauge the helth of the US economy because the traffic is always brisk. In bad time people still consume but they are very Price Conscious and in good times they are trying to get the most for their money and shop more often. They have a large inventory and do carry a lot of name brand merchandise. However, the value added elements, EXPERTISE, is not there. Provide that atmosphere such that your customers (humans which are creatures of habit) can't wait to get back into the store if for no reason just to share the common experience of their passion, and independents will surely flourish. Give the customer what they want, just charge for it accordingly. Even though my local archery store does not subscribe to the above tenents I still shop there becuase they have some archery specific items and I appreciate that they need support to stay in business.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Thanks guys*

conversing on this subject makes people think. I for one do not think staying in the store crying because business is bad is helping you make money. You have to improvise.....be smarter, do something different. Crying over split milk does not help you. But taking the incentive of your shop to the market.....you will grow maybe slowly maybe fast. But sitting on your hand whinning is not going to help you. Who picked up an archery magazine with the local shops name and address on it in the doctor/dentist/ or other public arenas? Maybe some has an inclination to shoot and never knew you were there. Now you reached him/her. Evne if they come into your shop to "look around"....show them your ranges explain to them what YOU do...2 hours of free lessons.....paper tuning their bow....being there for them when they have questions or problems free 2 hours on the screen. Maybe they will not buy today.....but they will you when they 1) have the money, 2) you treated them with kindness even though they did not buy 3)remember first impressions stick in peoples mind a long time....and is the base for future sales. think about that....Did first impressions inflyuence you? Never stop to remember who your boss is in the store.....it is not you..it is the customer...I even tell the customer that. I asked a few customers who the boss is in our shop. They said the owner.....I said NO......it is the customer who comes in...without them we,the shop can not exist.....and I am going to go over board to help you the customer in any way I can.....the customer should be the focus of everything......if not...then your priorities need to looked at and fixed.


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## Roger (Sep 26, 2002)

One thing I've never understood in my area. Wal-Mart slashes the prices of their archery stuff, usually in November here. I hear shops complain that they are selling it way below the shops purchase cost. What I can't understand is why those shops don't march into WalMart and buy up that inventory? If it's below your cost even with the sales tax added, why wouldn't YOU take advantage of those discounts and get the inventory off THEIR shelves at the same time? Out of curiosity, do any of you shop owners do that?

What I see, and maybe I'm wrong, is that archers are passionate about their sport and pro shop owners are that much more so. Consequently, there seems to be a lot of emotion interjected into the business equation. Maybe good, maybe bad. Depends upon how it is channelled. I have a lot of background in retail, though not archery. We sold a product at a higher price and did it on service and knowledge. We actually could have sold at the same price as discounters to some extent because we manufactured our own product and much of theirs. However, when the company did try that once, sales volumes didn't increase and gross margins dropped. We were still selling to the same customers who appreciated our service, but the price oriented customers still went to Sam's club or WalMart. Just my random thoughts as an outsider to the archery shop business looking in.


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## crazy horse (Nov 4, 2002)

Price breaks for buying in volume? Why does a company give you a price break for ordering early or buying in volume? Answer: Price breaks are there to make you the dealer or mart more profitable in your business not so you can undercut all of the competition. IF a company gives you a break on price for buying larger quantaties it is money in your pocket not savings for the customer. My gripe with wal-mart and the other big box stores and independant pro shops is that the companies that supply these prices don't make the retailer hold a minimum retail price that is fair to all levels of pricing on their products. Yes i am a independant pro shop, I try not to sell the products that the marts sell, and when a company starts selling to wal-mart I let them know at the amo show how i feel about there decision to sell to the marts and I do not order if they are not going to hold a minimum price that I can make my profit margins to survive on. alot of the companies that have delt with the marts are feeling it after they get wal-marted, look at api tree stands they went to wal-mart and they lowered the quality of their product and it backfired on them and they went bankrupt.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Trade shows/dealers*

Why do companies give deals and pre orders at the shows? that is simple.......they have to project what materials, aand man hours and over head they need to make that product. Without a feel for that..their purchasers and factory personnel have an idea what to buy, gear up their machines and keep insinc so they do not run out or have to much left over. The shows are a barometer of what the year is going to be like.
Also do you or anyone think the independent archery dealer can keep the archery market running. NO WAY!!!!!Most of them would be history......QUICK.....It is the Marts and mail order keep them running.
Think about this.....you make a product that has to sell to pay the heat, electric, employees staff and MAKE A PROFIT. Now ABC store tels you they have 5000 stores that want to buy a hundred of your product per store......that is half a milion dollars for incoming revenue.....as a manufacturer who has to answer to creditors and stock holders.....because we, the few specialty stores, think it is not right, they are not going to like it. That is BS big time. Without the major players that company would not be in business long and the products we sell would dry up. Again I say use them as a catalyst to promote your store. Think positive...postive things will happen, think negative you will get negative results......which do you do.....I know that I get lemonade from lemons.....so turn your lemons into lemonade and let the MARTS help you......it worked for us.They are not going away.....so why complain.use it do not lose it!!!!!


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