# Form: Barebow v. Freestyle



## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Greysides,

I saw that post too and thought HMMMMMM! Don't remember who posted that (not that it matters) but many THINK there is a difference -- you see it all the time actually. With the exception of where your string hand is on your face, I personally don't see any difference and don't teach a difference. I am a champion of the NTS here in the USA and teach hunters and target shooters the same way. Once form is learned, how you actually "employ" it MIGHT be different but that is "style" NOT form -- IMO.

Arne


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

I agree Greysides and Moe, however there are a few that want to believe and defend that their discipline is unique. I would really like to see children start on barebow because if you can hit with an arrow tip, (to me) the sights and stab make it easier. Some may argue that there is a different anchor but (again to me) that's only to get out to further distances. Everything else seems to be the same form?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

The hardest transition for my JOAD kids is to go from draw to side anchor, to a draw to under the chin anchor. The entire draw cycle changes. 

Clicker, no problem, Stabs, no problem, sights, no problem, Anchor under chin when use to drawing to the side of the face, weeks of practice and work.....

completely uses different muscles and has a transition during the draw to duck down under the chin. The two are not the same if using a linear draw. 

For an NTS coach using an angular draw, it is an easier transition to change the anchor. But then stance and core twist are complicating the form for them.


Chris


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

I shoot the odd end or two barebow every now and then for fun and there's marginal differences. The main one I notice in terms of feel on muscles is that my drawing elbow ends up higher, but the bow I would use has a much lower grip so it balances out alright. I do feel like my entire shoulder placement is "higher" but I reckon that's just the lack of weight of the wooden riser bows I shoot with when I do it. I'm no champion stringwalker but I do enjoy shooting the simpler set up now and then!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I made the statement and I stand by it.

The form is similar but has a few differences, but the execution is extremely different. The form differences are pretty obvious with the higher anchor and generally more "locked-in" as a means of maintaining a consistent drawlength. This is how I shoot barebow which I do to a reasonable standard (510-525 18m FITA average).
Shooting freestyle (I've been at it about 6 months or so) the form is a bit more dynamic, because without constant movement the clicker is never going to break. Getting to a "locked-in" state is completely counter-productive.

Which leads me to execution:
With barebow the execution isn't about movement to break a clicker. It's some other internal focus which leads to the release (and problems of TP for many archers). The best seem to use the inability to expand further like a back-wall on a compound (again "locked-in") and let the feeling of expanding into it trigger the release. This has the problem of the back-wall feeling changing depending on the state of fatigue in the archer. Trying to shoot barebow with continuous movement to the rear doesn't work well in my experience as there is no trigger besides sight picture and that isn't a good path to travel down.

The execution of freestyle is about continued movement leading to a surprise break of the clicker. The focus is internal but the trigger is external. Very different execution from barebow.

The point of the original comment was this:
I shoot barebow and freestyle. I know that I'm fairly competitive shooting barebow and beginner/intermediate shooting freestyle. I wouldn't comment on advanced freestyle techniques based-upon my barebow ability because the disciplines are not the same. If one has no freestyle experience then they should follow the same guidelines to avoid causing a poster to question the good information they receive from people who actually shoot the same discipline as they do.

-Grant


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

*Which leads me to execution:
With barebow the execution isn't about movement to break a clicker. It's some other internal focus which leads to the release (and problems of TP for many archers). The best seem to use the inability to expand further like a back-wall on a compound (again "locked-in") and let the feeling of expanding into it trigger the release. This has the problem of the back-wall feeling changing depending on the state of fatigue in the archer. Trying to shoot barebow with continuous movement to the rear doesn't work well in my experience as there is no trigger besides sight picture and that isn't a good path to travel down.*

Grantmac,

_"Copied and pasted from KSL - Coach Lee answering questions. http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/FAQs/FAQs.html#Q30_
_During the expansion, which commences once we have reached holding, the tension increases in the lower back muscles creating a micro movement of the scapulae. Even though there is only a micro movement of the scapulae, through the Ratio of Circular Movement this micro movement translates into larger movements through the chest opening up, then through the shoulders and the arms (biggest movement). The Ratio of Movement is the result of correct back tension." _

Sounds the same as barebow technique? Brain signals okay, creates tension in lower back muscles (no scapula squeeze)- micro movement of the scapulae (twinge) as a result, triggers relaxing of fingers?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Grant, et al, thanks for replying. My main purpose in asking is that I find myself instructing beginners. 
The course we teach is the approved one of our National Governing Body, which is freestyle-based.
Not having shot freestyle since my own days of being instructed is a little uncomfortable. Hence why I focus on the similarities.
Luckily most of what I have to do is fairly basic stuff and we have a coach I can refer people to.

Grant, what would you say to a barebow archer utilising a freestyle methodology to barebow shooting? 

Mimicking the use of a clicker, in-effect.

Draw (leaving a little in reserve), aiming and then expanding till the expansion acts as a clicker to initiate release.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

*what would you say to a barebow archer utilising a freestyle methodology to barebow shooting? *

Greysides, You're teaching ME to do it! :teeth:

The only thing I see different is the clicker, anchor, sight and stabs, but my bow is already bottom weighted, my arrow tip is the sight, the back of the chin is anchor and mind goes 'click' to release. Now...onto more work with the bands and closed-eyes blank bail. lol


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

bradd7 said:


> mind goes 'click' to release.


This is the essence of my post. A freestyle archer expands until an external stimulus triggers the release (the clicker). They only have to focus on a movement and their form is arranged to allow this movement to take place.

A barebow archer can use movement to trigger the release, but the stimulus is entirely internal. It's also a completely anticipatory trigger (look-up Joel Turner on this one). So your mind can trigger the shot anytime depending on your mental and physical fatigue. Most barebow archers are triggering from a sight picture to some degree simply because there just isn't any other solid trigger available.

When I started shooting freestyle the feel of the shot was a complete revolution, the focus was shifted towards movement reaching a trigger as opposed to a sight picture being the trigger. I've spent the last several months getting a non-anticipatory trigger working for my barebow shooting and I've finally found something which is working for me and remains WA barebow legal since it's not a drawcheck.

-Grant


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Freestyle and Barebow form can be exactly the same I spent a ton of cash on lessons for my wife. She was taught the Best Method by Don Rabska she learned it well 4 years of lessons. And competing with most of the US Olympic women's team in So Ca. After 4 years and thousands of hours of training and not making the team of only three. Sandy went back to Barebow recurve. 35years experience aiming helps. We went back to Don for another lesson explained what her plan was and asked how to change her form and draw cycle back to Barebow. His answer was silly goose just raise your anchor back up. Nothing changed except where her anchor point is. And aiming off the tip of the arrow. Come to full draw aim and expand through the shot. So when I read that the freestyle form and draw cycle are different than Barebow I'm not buying it. I have video and photos to prove it. And Sandy has NFAA National records and IFAA World records in women's Barebow recurve to prove it.

If anyone want to learn how Sandy will teach you $:shade:
Gary


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Gary is correct...however, one thing I think is different. When at full draw and you expand the arrow should not move, like it does when coming through the clicker. Expansion is only fully engage your back in barebow. If the arrow point is moving as it does coming through a clicker you will never develop an accurate point on. Expansion in barebow is similar placing your finger tips on your sternum and then move your elbow back by contracting your back muscles but your fingers do not move off your sternum. Pretty close to the same as shooting with sights and clicker, but you have to have a rock solid, consistant anchor point in barebow. 

Now we can start the next part of the debate. Is it better to shoot with split fingers or three fingers under...


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Recurve/clicker can (almost) easily change to compound/back tension
Bare Bow can with not so many difficulties change to Compound /thumb
Recurve /clicker to Bare Bow and viceversa is a diffcult transition as it is not at all a matter of mechanics, very similar indeed, but of a totally different mental sequence and shooting technique. 

Giuseppe Seimandi and Michele Frangilli are both good compound shooters, but none of them will change with the other the bow they normally use ....


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

*So your mind can trigger the shot anytime depending on your mental and physical fatigue. Most barebow archers are triggering from a sight picture to some degree simply because there just isn't any other solid trigger available.*

For a very long time in some circles, clickers where thought to be cheating or not necessary. Their main purpose was only to provide consistency through fatigue, and a common thought was that if you needed a clicker you either had target panic or were over-bowed to begin with. Yes, there is an internal clicker based on a sight picture (brain knows when it's on the center of center) that triggers the back to relax the fingers. In this is the errors of timing (expansion /finger relaxation) which makes up challenges of barebow.


* If the arrow point is moving as it does coming through a clicker you will never develop an accurate point on. *

I agree. The arrow cannot move as any movement causes up/down misses. The mindset in barebow is as quiet and solid as possible with the extension (or brain click) only triggering the release. In some cases an extension is not even needed as long as the tension is correct, as movement can cause misses.

*Now we can start the next part of the debate. Is it better to shoot with split fingers or three fingers under...*

Funny you asked this because I was watching Archery TV yesterday and wondered why with all the freestyle goodies they could add (cheats for a barebow shooter...lol), why they weren't allowed to shoot 3 under? Doesn't make sense.

Personally, I think that with the barebow and freestyle forms combined to a heightened degree, I can't see any reason why a good bare bow shooter couldn't shoot similar scores at a distance by aiming off the arrow, since we are allowed a short stab, raised rest, and plunger -everything needed to get a solid form and well-tuned arrow to fly as straight?


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## screemnjay (Nov 2, 2008)

Vittorio said:


> Recurve/clicker can (almost) easily change to compound/back tension
> Bare Bow can with not so many difficulties change to Compound /thumb
> Recurve /clicker to Bare Bow and viceversa is a diffcult transition as it is not at all a matter of mechanics, very similar indeed, but of a totally different mental sequence and shooting technique...


I agree with this thought process the most. I shoot all the disciplines, and use very similar mechanics with all. The differences become more apparent when you raise the standard of results with any of them. To shoot any or all at a high standard, there are intricacies of both mechanics and thought process (some of which this thread has covered) that are necessary to incorporate. 

There are differences between Recurve and Barebow, from Limb to Limb, Grip to Grip, Compound to Compound for this matter.


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## Pojman (Sep 2, 2013)

Could one of you wise archers please define freestyle and barebow to me since my classification of them sounds to be quite a bit different from yours.
Thank you


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Pojman, for these purposes, 'freestyle' is the Olympic Recurve with stabilisers, arrow rest, plunger, sights and clicker. Barebow is the same ILF riser with just a rest and a plunger.


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## Pojman (Sep 2, 2013)

Thank you so much for the simple explanation and the visual. In one of our State Games, Barebow allows for a finger tab/glove, any length stabilizer, and a fork stabilizer. There is no mention on the type of rest. What you describe as Freestyle would be the classification of FITA Recurve. We then have Freestyle, Freestyle limited, Freestyle Bowhunter, and Freestyle Bower Hunter Limited.I believe it is much more confusing than it should be, but it does allow for archers to participate using many different configurations.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

bradd7 said:


> Funny you asked this because I was watching Archery TV yesterday and wondered why with all the freestyle goodies they could add (cheats for a barebow shooter...lol), why they weren't allowed to shoot 3 under? Doesn't make sense.


I don't think there is any rule against 3 under for freestyle, it's just that split finger is a better tool for the job. They have a sight (no need to use arrow for aiming) and shoot futher distances.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Jeb-D. said:


> I don't think there is any rule against 3 under for freestyle, it's just that split finger is a better tool for the job. They have a sight (no need to use arrow for aiming) and shoot futher distances.


Grantmac already pointed out to me that 3 under is allowed. 

This is one thing that really intrigues me. If an anchor was chin (only to get to the distance target easier) is the sight really that much different/better than an arrow tip and really being able to read the wind? IMO a bare bow archer would have to learn to read the wind better? Unless the sight was magnified I can't see any advantage -especially if you can't use a peep?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The best barebow archer in the US has been Allan Eagleton for the last few years (unless Ben Rogers is listening). He shot a record of I believe 819 on the NFAA 900 round. That score isn't even close to the freestyle record.

Even look at Vegas where the "barebow" archers are permitted stabs and clickers, they are way down on the freestyle recurves.

-Grant


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

bradd7 said:


> *So your mind can trigger the shot anytime depending on your mental and physical fatigue. Most barebow archers are triggering from a sight picture to some degree simply because there just isn't any other solid trigger available.*
> 
> For a very long time in some circles, clickers where thought to be cheating or not necessary. Their main purpose was only to provide consistency through fatigue, and a common thought was that if you needed a clicker you either had target panic or were over-bowed to begin with. Yes, there is an internal clicker based on a sight picture (brain knows when it's on the center of center) that triggers the back to relax the fingers. In this is the errors of timing (expansion /finger relaxation) which makes up challenges of barebow.
> 
> ...


Let us know how that works out for you at 70meters.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

lksseven said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Let us know how that works out for you at 70meters.


70 works ok - 90 gets very interesting. 

At the longer ranges there is no way someone with out a clicker is going to be competitive


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## c-lo (Jan 8, 2012)

Greysides said:


> I found this interesting. I generally try to see the similarities between the execution of both...... and I see a lot of them.
> 
> I'm wondering what are the major differences?


I found that the amount of required mental focus is far greater for me when shooting barebow. 

Once I tried a sight and clicker and got accustomed to them the effort or focus seemed less to me, frankly it was a bit of a relief. Possibly because sights and clickers are external instruments that help our minds instead of having to take the full load internally. 

I also found that I flinched less and had less issues with TP, which heavy concentration seemed to trigger at times.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Greysides said:


> Grant, et al, thanks for replying. My main purpose in asking is that I find myself instructing beginners.
> The course we teach is the approved one of our National Governing Body, which is freestyle-based.
> Not having shot freestyle since my own days of being instructed is a little uncomfortable. Hence why I focus on the similarities.
> Luckily most of what I have to do is fairly basic stuff and we have a coach I can refer people to.
> ...


Aiden,

This is what I have been working on. I even use a clicker when I practice. I have to make sure to remember to remove the mount before a tournament. I work on trying to visualize the arrow going through the clicker. I primarily focus on FITA barebow so I am used to doing this at longer distances.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> 70 works ok - 90 gets very interesting.
> 
> At the longer ranges there is no way someone with out a clicker is going to be competitive


I have seen Alan Eagleton shoot some great scores at 90 meters. Better than most of the Oly style shooters at our state FITA's.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I have seen Alan Eagleton shoot some great scores at 90 meters. Better than most of the Oly style shooters at our state FITA's.


Alan is a good friend and clearly on the top of the barebow heap here in the US. But I'm sure that he would say as well - if you put the top of the recurve heap against the top of the barebow heap the recurve guys will walk away with it. 

Alan currently has the Star Fita national record with a 1156 I don't know my Fita scores all that well but my understanding is while that's a smoking good barebow score that's not a competitive recurve score at a national level. 

His 90 meter record is 264 almost 30 points behind the recurve record. 

I'm all about barebow and really wish I lived in a location where I could pursue the fita aspect of it. But, fact of the matter is recurve shooters have gear and mechanical advantages the even the best barebow guys can't overcome. 

Makes you wonder what Alan, Ben or Mark Applegate could have done if they came up through the JOAD program. 

Matt


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon off the shelf 70 and 90 meters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8ZMN-3lDBjw


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

bradd7 said:


> *So your mind can trigger the shot anytime depending on your mental and physical fatigue. Most barebow archers are triggering from a sight picture to some degree simply because there just isn't any other solid trigger available.*
> 
> For a very long time in some circles, clickers where thought to be cheating or not necessary. Their main purpose was only to provide consistency through fatigue, and a common thought was that if you needed a clicker you either had target panic or were over-bowed to begin with. Yes, there is an internal clicker based on a sight picture (brain knows when it's on the center of center) that triggers the back to relax the fingers. In this is the errors of timing (expansion /finger relaxation) which makes up challenges of barebow.
> 
> ...


You surely never shot recurve with clicker....  And what you would added to freestyle form from barebow form? You starting to amuse me in several threads..


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

bradd7 said:


> Jimmy Blackmon off the shelf 70 and 90 meters.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8ZMN-3lDBjw


Jimmy is also a friend and would tell you the same - there are mechanical advantages that a barebow guy just can't over come. 

As much as I think I "should" be able to compete with the free style compound guys on a 3D course fact of the matter is no amount of practice will over come the mechanical advantage - that's why we have different classes. 

Matt


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

> * I can't see any reason why a good bare bow shooter couldn't shoot similar scores at a distance by aiming off the arrow, since we are allowed a short stab, raised rest, and plunger -everything needed to get a solid form and well-tuned arrow to fly as straight*?


At one point I thought his as well, even without the stabilisers and clicker, but sadly having watched new-comers to the club start-off and then add all the ornaments, I've come to realise it's just not possible.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm not sure at distance, but Alan Eagleton might be able to do it with practice and Jimmy Blackmon did it off the shelf just for fun, so what one man can do, another man can do?


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

bradd7 said:


> I'm not sure at distance, but Alan Eagleton might be able to do it with practice and Jimmy Blackmon did it off the shelf just for fun, so what one man can do, another man can do?


Please don't dig it any deaper.......WR at 90m is 342, 70m 350 (351 for Mrs. Park) Gents Fita - 1387......no archer witchout clicker (you can have all other stuff on bow) can shoot 1300....and even best barebow guys are bellow 1200...


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Please don't dig it any deaper.......WR at 90m is 342, 70m 350 (351 for Mrs. Park) Gents Fita - 1387......no archer witchout clicker (you can have all other stuff on bow) can shoot 1300....and even best barebow guys are bellow 1200...


Well, Alan Eagleton set a world record (815/900? and has been within that a few times) and these guys are just at the beginning of this new game-style, so I'm not sure you'd be able to say what you did, as the future, with all the new training methods and gear, might make a difference that will surprise a lot of people.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

bradd7 said:


> Well, Alan Eagleton set a world record (815/900? and has been within that a few times) and these guys are just at the beginning of this new game-style, so I'm not sure you'd be able to say what you did, as the future, with all the new training methods and gear, might make a difference that will surprise a lot of people.


Whats is this guy's best Gents FITA? or Fita70??....and what is world record for 900 round (I don't know this as we do not shoot it over here) for recurve??

Why you try convince others it's possible shoot similar scores with barebow as with recurves?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

An 815 is pretty pedestrian for a skilled Olympic recurve shooter. I do not know about the record. I'm not sure if the NFAA is keeping track, or not.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Maybe you should look him up http://archersparadoxdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/a-discussion-with-alan-eagleton/ check out the awards at the bottom. 

It's got a lot of things to do with recurve as it's the same bow without a sight and all the toys.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Alan Eagleton is a hell of an archer. An 815 is just not that good an Olympic recurve 900 round. Bradd7, for goodness sake, sit back and listen to some of the stuff that is being said on multiple threads. Your blizzard of words say mostly nothing.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

bradd7 said:


> Maybe you should look him up http://archersparadoxdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/a-discussion-with-alan-eagleton/ check out the awards at the bottom.
> 
> It's got a lot of things to do with recurve as it's the same bow without a sight and all the toys.


I'm sure he is great barebow shooter.....I never questioned that.....but he is still 200+ points behind best recurve in Gents Fita, this is fact and no training/new form can overcome this.

And once again I'm quiting this thread.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

bradd7 said:


> I'm not sure at distance, but Alan Eagleton might be able to do it with practice and Jimmy Blackmon did it off the shelf just for fun, so what one man can do, another man can do?


Bradd

Please try listening to what people are telling you. 

I compete with these guys

http://www.ibo.net/results.php?e=177&c=105

Alan and Jimmy are friends when I shoot the IBO west coast Champs I stay with Alan (he also kicked my but).



Just look at the scores, lets throw distance out of the formula and just look at 18 meters. Alan is an awesome indoor archer his 834 in Vegas this year put him ahead of all but 2 of the barebow compound guys. Yet, that score would have placed him 37 in the top recurve flight (a great accomplishment)

As distance increases and the clicker becomes more and more of a factor the spread just becomes greater.



Matt


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks Matt. I AM listening. Just that I come from a place (60s) where clickers were kinda cheating so, I know what they will do and respect that and the people who use them, but there must be something that goes 'click' in Alan's head and your head too? Obviously the greater the distance the more consistent one must be. I'm not arguing that point at all. 

I'm merely putting it out there IF it could be done, and what would it take? And that's where the Jimmy hitting the 70/90m with a simple recurve comes in. If he can do it once, what stops him from practicing enough to do it more? I mean, not many people thought that Alan could whip the compounders or even get the scores he does...but he did it, which means now that more people will be paying attention to everything he does, and in the future maybe everyone will reach that milestone...who knows? Did you ever think that you would be where you are, shooting the scores you did, being around the top people in the sport? So what did you learn from them that you may have originally thought was impossible? I'm not comparing, I am asking IF it's possible? And the answer is yes if you go back further than '7 and watch what they could do then without all the high tech gear.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

what amazes me the most is how a form thd worfed into an aiming thd !! Brad put a sight on your bow and find out for your self.

Gary


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

my last say here..... I think this sentence summ it up "I am asking IF it's possible? And the answer is yes" you raise questions and want to hear just your answers......because for everyone else the obvious answer is NO....if you have the same person and let him shoot barebow and recurve , he will ALWAYS score higher with recurve because it's technical advantage.... that's only logical no?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Matt_Potter said:


> Bradd
> 
> Please try listening to what people are telling you.
> 
> ...


I shoot with Jason Wesbrock and Scott Antczak a fair bit. Both great guys and excellent shooters. Jason has really been shooting some outstanding rounds!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I shoot with Jason Wesbrock and Scott Antczak a fair bit. Both great guys and excellent shooters. Jason has really been shooting some outstanding rounds!


Both great guys to shoot with. My first trip to worlds I shot in Scott's group all 3 days - he helped me a bunch. This past time I didn't get a chance to shoot with Scott but, shot with Jason both in a shoot down and in the finals another great guy.

For me it's the people that make the travel all worth it. Now if we could just cure Jason of his fear of rain all would be good. ;-)

Matt


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Alan is a good friend and clearly on the top of the barebow heap here in the US. But I'm sure that he would say as well - if you put the top of the recurve heap against the top of the barebow heap the recurve guys will walk away with it.
> 
> Alan currently has the Star Fita national record with a 1156 I don't know my Fita scores all that well but my understanding is while that's a smoking good barebow score that's not a competitive recurve score at a national level.
> 
> ...


Matt,

You can't compare Alan to FITA shooters at the elite level. I was not trying to. At the state level he holds his own against the FITA guys, unless one of the 1300 guys is there. He actually shot, I think it was an 1167, at the Pac Coast a few years ago. I think they missed it in the star FITA record book. I think it is in the state record book. I was shooting with Alan when he posted many of his FITA records. It is intimidating to see what he can do at those distances without a sight. Alan and I shot our first FITA's together. I beat him by 30 points at 90 meters. He beat me by 100 points at 70, and that was all she wrote. I was left in the dust. He set the 30 meter record that tournament. After that, he figured it out and started breaking state and national records.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Matt,
> 
> You can't compare Alan to FITA shooters at the elite level. I was not trying to. At the state level he holds his own against the FITA guys, unless one of the 1300 guys is there. He actually shot, I think it was an 1167, at the Pac Coast a few years ago. I think they missed it in the star FITA record book. I think it is in the state record book. I was shooting with Alan when he posted many of his FITA records. It is intimidating to see what he can do at those distances without a sight. Alan and I shot our first FITA's together. I beat him by 30 points at 90 meters. He beat me by 100 points at 70, and that was all she wrote. I was left in the dust. He set the 30 meter record that tournament. After that, he figured it out and started breaking state and national records.


I checked and what I thought was an 1167 was the 1156. Still a great score.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I checked and what I thought was an 1167 was the 1156. Still a great score.


Don't get me wrong Alan is a spectacular archer - I bums me out that I only get to shoot against him twice a year. But Bradd was suggesting that barebow guys should be competitive with the recurve guys at the elite level and that just isn't the case. 

Matt


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

*But Bradd was suggesting that barebow guys should be competitive with the recurve guys at the elite level*

Good Morning Matt,

That may have been how it came off but that wasn't my intent. I was asking if it's possible on any level right now, and perhaps the elite level in the future. The reasoning is because more and more young and older barebow archers are using the KSL method ,instead of flingin' arras and it seems to be having a positive effect as indicated by the scores...Alan may only be the beginning of it all and has set the new standard for what all barebow shooters should be able to do? 

Actually, the OP's question was on the form and it got off into gear.

The answer that I gleaned out of it all (yes I do listen) is that the clicker is the advantage? :teeth:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

bradd7 said:


> *But Bradd was suggesting that barebow guys should be competitive with the recurve guys at the elite level*
> 
> Good Morning Matt,
> 
> ...


Bradd

Don't think Aidan will mind the detour.

First let me say I'm not near the field shooter of Alan, Ben or Ty. I'll shoot with anyone on a 3D course as that is the game I get to play here in Montana but, I just don't get to shoot field.

The difference between Oly and barebow is cumulative

1) stabilizer - there is a significant difference between a v bar set up with a 30 inch stab vs. barebow weights or a 12 inch stab that NFAA or IBO allows. I haven't personally quantified it but, I've been told it's in the line of 3-4 points on a NFAA 300 round - a big deal at the upper levels.

2) Low in-line anchor vs high side of face anchor - if a side of face anchor was better the Oly guys would do it. None of the Oly guys are saying "this is how it is done" they are trying new stuff all the time.

3) Sight - the aperture sight that most Oly guys use allows for much finer aiming that even the skinniest of arrow tips. Also my experience with aperture sights is because they are blocking less of the target it makes for a less panicky aiming solution. The sight also allows for the lower inline anchor and because you can adjust it for different ranges it takes the tuning nightmare of string-walking off the table.

4) The Clicker - this is the biggie it allows for a totally constant surprise release on every shot. Martin Ottesson (very good Swedish barebow guy) once said that "barebow competition at the highest level is just a competition of who can control TP the best" this is a rough quote as I couldn't find the original but, you get the point. The clicker to a large degree takes TP off the table this isn't saying Oly guys don't get TP but, the clicker greatly reduces it.

At longer ranges (50 yards plus) total constancy of your release is critical. I'm capable of shooting Oly size groups at 90 meters barebow but, most of the time my groups show large amounts of vertical stringing due to variations in my expansion. While a clicker doesn't solve this it does reduce the variation greatly. 

Like I said it is a cumulative thing but, the differences between the two disciplines is why we have different classes. A shooter like Alan can over come many of them and beat the run of the mill oly guy. But, once you start comparing elite level to elite level the Oly guy will always win. 

Matt


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