# Distance Between 20yd and 30yd pins?



## jjc155 (Feb 1, 2005)

well if the 20 yard and 30 yard pins are hitting dead on at that gap, it is not the site that is causing it. The gap is a function of the speed of the bow. If you were to change sites and kept everything else the same, u would have the same gap.

Do u know what your bow is shooting speed wise? I know that it is "capable" of 316fps but it obviously is not shooting that. What is your total arrow weight? The speed spec is done at 350grns for a 70#bow and atleast 30in DL (cant remember exact number) and u start to loose speed pretty quick as the arrow weight goes up from there.

That being said, my bow shooting 275fps has a gap of just under 1/8in for 20-30 and just about 1/4in for total 20-35yards.

My guess with out knowing what ur acutal speed is, is that the gap is prb pretty close.

going with the GT hunters 75/95 at 8.9grns/in, 100grn heads and light componets and fletch, at 28in arrow I come up with aprox 380grns or 30grns over what the speed is spec'd at. You'll hear anything from 1-3fps per grain of arrow weight, which could put u 30-90fps under the 316fps they say the bow can do. Which could run u down to 226-286fps.

dont spend money on a new sight, unless it has more room in the pin gaurd for more travel/more pins as the gap will be the same unless u pick up speed.

hope this helps
J-


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

Thanks, thats useful. I plan on having my speed checked this week. I didn't mean a new sight would help with the gap, but a new sight would give me more room get use of all 7 pins and hope I can get to distances around 90 or maybe 100 yrds.


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

How many sets of mounting holes are on that sight? I'll bet it's mounted all the way forward......bring it back closer to the riser if possible. That will close the pin gap a bit. It should allow more range, too.


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

That I will try out this afternoon.That makes perfect sense, I looked at it this morning, and I can move the sight back somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. I'm hoping that will allow me to get my pins tighter to get me more room for longer distances. For now I have up to 40yrds sighted, good enough for coyote around here! Thanks!


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## shocktower (Jun 30, 2004)

Another thing the arrows you are shooting are heaver than needed when you shoot a heavy arrow it makes a diffrence,I happen to like the Gold tip hunter Pro`s 55/75 they are a lighter arrow with tighter tolerances and the + or - for the .006 on the 75/95`s VS the + or - on the 55/75 hunter pros also with a heavy arrow and light tips make them fly oddly try 125 grain tips to give the arrow enough flex before leaving the string ,good luck


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

So Try 125gr tips with my current 75/95's? I have room to shorten them up maybe 1-2 inches, will that help? Or just try a whole diffent arrow setup? With all this info, I'm bound to get this bow shoot pretty deadly. Thanks


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## yelk hunter (Feb 18, 2004)

AMMO - I shoot an Xtec 65#, 30" draw, 28.5" 75/95 with 125 gr BH. Total arrow weight is 452gr. Don't know the speed but bow is only rated 310 fps.

I have a 2-3/8" diameter spot hogg and have 25, 40, 50, 60 & 80 yard pins. I could rearrange and probably get 95-100 yard pin. (I do not shoot animals - well maybe AT praire dogs - at 80 yards but practicing there sure helps.)

I cannot remember the Truglo "ring" diameter but you should be able to get there.


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

i had my extension all the way out, 9", and had a 1/2" gap between the 20 and 50 meter mark. and i was shooting #60 and 27.5" DL, maybe 270 fps, or so, but could be less. 

if you want to get more yardage you can anchor lower (move your peep up a bit). this will give you a lot of yardage without having to move your sight, plus moving the sight 1" or so, i dont think will be noticeable.

good luck!!


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

I just had my peep redone, the place I bought it at tied it in but left it loose enough that it could actually move up and down, so I'll leave that alone for now. I was just thinking my bow should shoot flatter than the story my pins are telling. But I will try moving my sight closer to the riser today, hopefully it will free up some room inside my sight to utilize all my pins. Thanks


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## cmbhunter (Jun 20, 2006)

*peep*

your peep location could be a good portion of the problem. If it is located less than 4-5" above the nock, your arrow doesn't go much above the line of sight and your arrows will seem to fall off faster. On the other hand, if you are comfortable where you are, don't change this close to hunting season.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

AMMO22 said:


> So Try 125gr tips with my current 75/95's? I have room to shorten them up maybe 1-2 inches, will that help? Or just try a whole diffent arrow setup? With all this info, I'm bound to get this bow shoot pretty deadly. Thanks


NO. Don't go to a lighter spined arrow. With 70Lbs and your draw length (30") you don't want to shoot 55/75's. You have the right arrow. My pin gap on my Super Tec (when I had it) from 25-35 yds is only a hair bigger with a Spot-Hogg Hogg-It extended all the way out. I was shooting 68lbs with a 27 3/4" draw with a 440 grain arrow. Yes the bow is faster than yours but I was shooting around 290fps. Your pin gap is fine. If you are really that worried about it move your sight in closer to the bow if you can and it will tighten up your pin gap some.


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

Ok. I moved the sight in closer. Then went to my local bowtech dealer where I was depressed to find out my bow shooting a speed of 260, when that not even close to the 308-316fps the paperwork says. What could be wrong that would slow me down that much? I find the answer to that, I solve my pin and yardage gain problem. Thanks for all the input ya'll are giving me. Its awesome and a huge help.


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## Phoenix34 (Jan 18, 2005)

As stated above, the speed rating for your bow was taken with a 350 grain arrow @70 lbs and 30'' draw. Shooting a heavier arrow can cause a substantial drop in speed depending on how much above 350 gr your set up is. Can you give a little more info, such as arrow length, total arrow weight, type of string silencers used, etc


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## XP35 (Oct 11, 2005)

AMMO22, how much "stuff" is attached to your string? You are losing speed for many reasons. Heavier than IBO mnimum arrows, string silencers, peep sight (got a tube??), brass nockpoints and rubber eliminators (or maybe a loop?), maybe a kisser button, etc..... 

All weight robs speed. Extra weight on the string has the same string slowing effect as heavier arrows. Let us know what you have on there......


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

I do have a few things attached to my string and cable. Peep site tubing, and I have a release loop tied to my string, Factory silencers, alpine drop away rest cord attached to my cable. My arrows I believe I had cut at 31" they are Gold Tip 7595's @ 8.9gpi with a 100gr field point. My draw weight is an even 70# and draw lenght is 30". Is it possible that I can use a 29 or 28" arrow? If so I could go to a 55/75 arrow @ 8.1gpi. But I don't believe the current setup I have would slow my bow down 50+/-fps, I may be wrong though, thats why I'm asking you guys to help me out. Thanks!!


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## jjc155 (Feb 1, 2005)

you could shorten up your arrow. I have a 28in draw and shoot arrows that are 26 3/4 inch long and could still prob cut off another inch if I wanted. This is the length that shoots best out of this bow.

WHen you cut your arrows shorter it will stiffen up the spine some, just fyi u may have to re-tune to get everything grouping again and you would have to re-sight in for the extra speed.

J-

have you been able to get a total arrow weight on ur current arrows by using a scale? You would be amazed how much speed u can lose with heavier than IBO spec arrows. For instance if you were lost 1fps per 1grn of extra arrow weight and you were shooting a 400grn arrow, u will lose 50fps just with the arrow alone and not taking any thing else into account. These are just "for instance" numbers but should illustrate the concept.


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## jjc155 (Feb 1, 2005)

most of what I have read shows 1fps lost for 3-5grns arrow weight over the IBO of 350grns for a 70lbs bow. If you know your total arrow weight then you could figure out a "range" of where your bow could shoot. 

Also as others have said items on your string can hurt speed. One of the bigger ones is the peep tube. I'm sure you could find something on this site that will list aprox how much a loop, peep etc will drop your FPS.

J-


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

I did have my arrow weighed yesterday, but I don't remember what it was. Did I read that correctly that shooting a heavier arrow may speed me up a bit? The bowtech dealer had an arrow set up to what they shoot at the factory to speed test the bows, and thats the arrow I shot 280 with. He told me the peep tube delete would give me about 3fps and about another 3-4fps for dropping to an 85gr point. I wonder if a winner's choice string might change anything. I'm kinda depressed about the whole thing.


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

Is there another mod I could go with to get my speed back? The mod I have now is stamped IF4, my bowtech dealer didn't have one in his shop we could try. Is it possible I could order one from diamond?


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## HNSB (Jul 1, 2004)

Another thing to think about is your anchor point. Changing your anchor can have a substantial impact on your pin settings.

Try doing a search on "parallax" for more info.


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

How can I change my anchor point? Is it in my form or is it something mechanical with the bow?


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

AMMO22 said:


> How can I change my anchor point? Is it in my form or is it something mechanical with the bow?


itsin your form, but if its a drastical change sometimes it can also modify your draw lenght.

to get more distance (your pin wont go low enough to reach 90 meters), raise your peep a bit. this will force you to anchor lower in order to be able to see trough the peep. i think 1/4" can be enough. however you need to find a repeatable and comfortable anchor.

good luck!!


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## HNSB (Jul 1, 2004)

Like mex-3D said...

Normally I anchor with the angle of my jaw between the index and middle finger of my right hand (handheld release, palm facing out). If I need more distance out of a particular bow, I'll set up the peep so that I anchor with the angle of my jaw between the ring and pinky fingers. By that moves my anchor about 1-3/4"... When I do that it changes my sight by a couple of inches.


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## AMMO22 (Jul 7, 2006)

Awesome, I'll go to see Ray at shooters edge here in Tucson and have him take another look at my peep location and form. With the help of all you folks, I'm bound to get this thing shooting right.


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## NJScotty8 (Jun 12, 2005)

Please do not fall for the lighter arrow non-sense. The spine with the 7595's is perfect for your setup. Speed only matters on the 3-D range when you are shooting at 42-53 yard targets. The stiffer the arrow, the better broad head flight characteristics down range. A heavier arrow will also absorb more sound. If you purchase Pinwheel Software Archery program, you will learn a ton about optimum spine, foc and many other things novice archers need to know in order to get to the next level.:darkbeer:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NJScotty8 said:


> Please do not fall for the lighter arrow non-sense. The spine with the 7595's is perfect for your setup. Speed only matters on the 3-D range when you are shooting at 42-53 yard targets. The stiffer the arrow, the better broad head flight characteristics down range. A heavier arrow will also absorb more sound. If you purchase Pinwheel Software Archery program, you will learn a ton about optimum spine, foc and many other things novice archers need to know in order to get to the next level.:darkbeer:


Yup.

OnTarget2! from www.pinwheelsoftware.com


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NJScotty8 said:


> Please do not fall for the lighter arrow non-sense. The spine with the 7595's is perfect for your setup. Speed only matters on the 3-D range when you are shooting at 42-53 yard targets. The stiffer the arrow, the better broad head flight characteristics down range. A heavier arrow will also absorb more sound. If you purchase Pinwheel Software Archery program, you will learn a ton about optimum spine, foc and many other things novice archers need to know in order to get to the next level.:darkbeer:


Yup.

OnTarget2! from www.pinwheelsoftware.com


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## Ed Bock (Apr 1, 2006)

*20 yrd, or closest pin ---*

Remember to put your closest yardage pin at the topmost postion in the pin track slot - then move the body of the sight to give you the 20 yard shot. Now you move the various pins for the other distances.


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## A Mess (May 21, 2005)

IF speed is your goal, there are only so many ways to get it from your existing bow. It's simple physics:

Lighter arrow or less weight on the bow string.
More draw weight.
More draw length.
Period.


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## JCinMN (Sep 27, 2005)

It sounds like you need to get a better understanding of how all this works. The suggestions that people offer are only going to get you a little way because noone is right there with your bow and is able to see the whole picture. But if you develop a better understanding of what affects your arrow flight you will be able to look at these suggestions and see what they mean and adapt that to your situation.

That OnTarget software from pinwheel is a great tool and will help you see how changes you make to your setup affect it. I'd also recommend spending ALOT of time on here searching and reading posts and looking at things such as the easton tuning guide available on easton's website. As you learn you can then go back and plug that into the software to get a feel for how these changes affect your system before you spend $$$ on overpriced archery gear.

Right off the cuff, I can definitely believe that you are losing 50fps off the IBO spec for your bow. That arrow you are shooting could easily be 70 grains above IBO spec (31 inch arrow * 8.9 grains per inch = 276 grains + 100 grains for point + 15 grains for insert + 9 grains for nock = 400 grains + 20 grains for fletching (this could be even more depending on your fletching) = 420 total arrow weight - 350 grains for IBO spec = 70 grains). Do you have arrow wraps? Add another 10 grains. Divide your 70+ grains by 3, you are gong to lose a minimum of 25 fps just due to arrow weight. Subtract another 5 fps for a peep site, another 10 fps due to the tubing... There's 40 fps right there. You have a loop? There's another 3fps... Plus silencers, these are huges suckers of arrow speed. I don't know about diamond, but bowtech specs their IBO speed with their factory silencers on the bow.

You can go to a lighter arrow, and even stay with the same spine. You can go to goldtip ultralight pro's, they are 8.5 gpi for the same spine (they might actually be slightly stiffer that the 7595's). You are also shooting an arrow that's 31 inches long, you could easily shorten it to 30 inches and gain that weight back. But you are going to affect the spine so having that software to plug it all into is going to help understand what changes you can make. You also need to worry about FOC, kinetic energy, etc...

Lets talk about your fletching again... Feathers? vanes? How is it fletched, slight offset, heavy offset, helical, heavy helical? Feathers are going to have more drag than vanes, and the more offset and or helical you have is going to add even more drag. This will slow the arrows down more as they fly. This will cause a larger pin gap, but you also need to spin those arrows more to stabilize them and the less influence you have with the fletching the more anal you will have to be with the tuning so that the broadheads fly the same as your field points.

I can illustrate my situation. I have a bowtech tribute at 70# with a 30" draw length. Bowtech specs the IBO speed (which is a 350 grain arrow shot out of the bow set at 30inch draw and 70# draw weight) to be 328fps with their hush kit and a brass nock and cushion buttons. I'm shooting 390 grain arrows which puts me 40 grains above IBO, that's approximately a 13 fps loss. However, I ditched the hush kit from my bow and use a loop and rope nock instead of a brass nock and ditched their cushion buttons. I also do not use a peep sight so the only things on my string are string loop and a tied on nock. I measure 323 fps which is exactly what the software calculates for my setup (I'm quite surprised by that actually, I'd expect the software to be optimistic). But with a peep on it and the hush kit and the brass nock, I was 20 fps slower than it is now. However, even with that speed, I've got to be close to 1/4 inch between my 20 and 30 yard pin because I currently have feathers on my arrows with a heavy helical. So there's a lot of drag and I lose a lot of speed as the arrow flies. I'm thinking about changing that but that's just the way it is. 

So this is what makes it very complicated for anyone to just give a simple answer that will "fix" your problem. There are a lot of complicated factors to consider and everything is going to be a give and take. Do a lot of searching and reading on AT here and get that software, you'll know exactly what you need to do in no-time.


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