# "Over spined" arrows???



## matjok (Oct 11, 2008)

What exactly is wrong with using very stiff arrows (that are usually referred to as being "over spined")?
I do understand the issues related to 'weak' arrows - archers paradox- too much flexing and the resulting energy loss, breaking in extreme cases etc, etc...
But what is wrong with using arrows that are "very" stiff? Degree of stiffness is usually directly proportionate to weight of arrows, so in general the stiffer the arrow the slower they will be. If I am ok with the speed loss are there any other problems associated to stiffness? The way I see it, the less the arrow flexes in flight the steadier and truer it's flight path. We are only talking about compound bows here, so there is no need to use the arrow's flexing to clear the riser. 
So why arrows that have less spine deflection than a set number for a certain draw weight are being referred to as "OVER SPINED"? Exactly what is wrong with them, or what exactly they do in flight that is bad?


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

Im an amateur here but there is also a problem with arrows not being able to flex enough.


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## matjok (Oct 11, 2008)

ozzz said:


> Im an amateur here but there is also a problem with arrows not being able to flex enough.


But why do they have to flex?!!! Aren't they supposed to fly in a straight line, ideally with no flex at all?

What are the laws of physics involved here that I am not aware of?


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## ozzz (Jul 30, 2010)

matjok said:


> But why do they have to flex?!!! Aren't they supposed to fly in a straight line, ideally with no flex at all?
> 
> What are the laws of physics involved here that I am not aware of?


I think its impossible for an arrow to fly perfectly straight with that amount of energy going through it. The idea is to find the best medium.


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## DocMort (Sep 24, 2009)

Archers Paradox or whatever it is called is no longer an issue with the compounds of today, No riser to clear. I tend to shoot really stiff arrows with no issues.


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## matjok (Oct 11, 2008)

ozzz said:


> I think its impossible for an arrow to fly perfectly straight with that amount of energy going through it. The idea is to find the best medium.


Yes, impossible without flex. That I do understand.
But what is wrong with trying to minimize it or trying to eliminate it all together? Why can't I go for the least flex provided I do not care about the weight? Why it is not recommended to go beyond a minimum deflection level? 

Is it just made up BS or is there any scientific explanation behind it? 

I am pretty sure someone have already done some studies in this. I would like to know the theory behind this.


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

How much flex do you get out of a bolt?
I shoot overspinned arrows also.


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## lunghit (Aug 5, 2005)

I asked this question a few weeks ago and this is a response I got from a member here.

Shooting an arrow that is too stiff will also have flight problems. An arrow with a weak spine will continue to correct itself throughout the flight of the arrow, by continuing to oscilate side to side. An arrow that is too stiff in spine will do the oposite, meaning it will never correct itself because the spine is too stiff to allow it oscilate properly for flight correction.

This is why an arrow designed for target shooting typically has a weaker spine than the same arrow used for hunting. In a target arrow you need more correction in arrow flight due to there being less weight on the front in the form of a field point. In a hunting arrow, the broadhead assists somewhat in the steering of the arrow and adds more weight to the front of the arrow, requiring more force to correct arrow flight, hence the need for a stiffer spine in a hunting arrow than you need in a target arrow.


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## DocMort (Sep 24, 2009)

Put feathers on either and it will stabilize quicker. I shoot 100 grain heads and 100 grain FPs so there is no different in weight.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

matjok said:


> What exactly is wrong with using very stiff arrows (that are usually referred to as being "over spined")?
> I do understand the issues related to 'weak' arrows - archers paradox- too much flexing and the resulting energy loss, breaking in extreme cases etc, etc...
> But what is wrong with using arrows that are "very" stiff? Degree of stiffness is usually directly proportionate to weight of arrows, so in general the stiffer the arrow the slower they will be. If I am ok with the speed loss are there any other problems associated to stiffness? The way I see it, the less the arrow flexes in flight the steadier and truer it's flight path. We are only talking about compound bows here, so there is no need to use the arrow's flexing to clear the riser.
> So why arrows that have less spine deflection than a set number for a certain draw weight are being referred to as "OVER SPINED"? Exactly what is wrong with them, or what exactly they do in flight that is bad?


Look at indoors and how stiff there shooting arrows. Everyone shooting fat over spined arrows.

Watch 3d and its the same thing.

Its all how you tune the bow.
DB


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

How much correction do you get from a bolt? I betting not much if any.
I do realize with a longer arrow you'll get more flex ,but how less is too less?
Don't your flectching correct arrow flight also? 
My hunting set up is fixed BH heavy spinned arrow flight not a problem as long as bow is tunned and arrows spin tested.


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## icefishur96 (Dec 11, 2007)

I was shooting a .250 spine indoor arrow with no trouble at all. Arrow was 30'' long, fusions on the back and 150 grn. points


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## Ultra Limited (May 11, 2006)

Really interesting. Post 5.


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

How much correction do you get from a bolt?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

The arrow flexing isn't paradox.

Paradox, is the difference between the plane of the arrow, and the plane that the nock point travels.

That difference is not as significant with the use of a release aid, and a "shoot-through" style rest, but it is still "there". Especially with any bow equipped with an offset cable guard.

If you don't think that you can overspine an arrow, with modern equipment, you are sadly mistaken. All it takes to prove that theory wrong, is a few overspined shafts, and some fixed blade broadheads.

If you don't shoot broadheads, then it is pretty hard to see a difference.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

How come dox's always come in a pair?

It is best to shoot the properly spined arrow for best results and grouping at different distances.


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## bowhunter727 (Apr 16, 2010)

i just sent my bow out to be tuned with one of my arrows and the tuner could not get my arrow to go through paper without a tear he used a weaker spined arrow and perfect holes i never liked weak spined arrows till we had a convo and he made alot of great points try it guys you will see. idk but binary cams like weaker spined arrows for some reason


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## smalls4 (Jan 30, 2011)

is it fair to say that an overspined arrow will make FOC fairly low? may disrupt flight


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

bowhunter727 said:


> i just sent my bow out to be tuned with one of my arrows and the tuner could not get my arrow to go through paper without a tear he used a weaker spined arrow and perfect holes i never liked weak spined arrows till we had a convo and he made alot of great points try it guys you will see. idk but binary cams like weaker spined arrows for some reason


I have tried both and long range with fixed blade broadheads weak spine just doesn't cut it. I have tuned many binary cam bows and don't find they perform better with a weak spine. Try shooting a weak spine arrow at longer distance with a lighted nock. You will definitely see what I am talking about. There are many factors in paper tuning and I can get a bullet hole with most arrows regardless of spine ( with in reason ) but it doesn't necessarily mean its tuned.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> The arrow flexing isn't paradox.
> 
> Paradox, is the difference between the plane of the arrow, and the plane that the nock point travels.
> 
> ...


Ever try to push a canoe straight away from you and have it go directly to the place you were aiming? If you push a bit too much to one side or the other, it planes off in that direction despite the fact that it didn't feel like your push was uneven. Same thing with weak or stiff arrow spine because the string is never going to be perfectly inline with even the best release and rest because a human is executing the process. A weak spine flexes too much and overcorrects to the right for a right handed shooter, while a stiff spine undercorrects and flies to the left for the same shooter. Paper tuning is one way to tune, but cut your fletching off and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards and see what a difference a stiff shaft makes. Your fletching is designed to compensate for form, flight or tuning errors and it works pretty good. A fixed blade broadhead reveals the same tuning faults and that is precisely the reason so many guys opt for mechanicals that are folded up like a field point to hide tuning issues. It isn't the design of the head, but tuning issues that are showing up with a fixed blade head.


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## matjok (Oct 11, 2008)

Alaska at heart said:


> Ever try to push a canoe straight away from you and have it go directly to the place you were aiming? If you push a bit too much to one side or the other, it planes off in that direction despite the fact that it didn't feel like your push was uneven. Same thing with weak or stiff arrow spine because the string is never going to be perfectly inline with even the best release and rest because a human is executing the process. A weak spine flexes too much and overcorrects to the right for a right handed shooter, while a stiff spine undercorrects and flies to the left for the same shooter. Paper tuning is one way to tune, but cut your fletching off and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards and see what a difference a stiff shaft makes. Your fletching is designed to compensate for form, flight or tuning errors and it works pretty good. A fixed blade broadhead reveals the same tuning faults and that is precisely the reason so many guys opt for mechanicals that are folded up like a field point to hide tuning issues. It isn't the design of the head, but tuning issues that are showing up with a fixed blade head.


This is the simplest, easiest to understand explanation I have seen on this subject. Thank you. :thumbs_up


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

I understand the anaolgy.What difference would you see with a proper spinned bolt or an over spinned bolt? 
When you say a stiff spine undercorrects and flies left do you mean because of the cam cycle?


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## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

I have no xbow experience but they should experience the same thing.
Biggest difference I guess is its probably masked by bolt length. The tip-tail deviation from center would be less for the same degree of flex...not amplifying the tuning errors seen on longer arrows. Our tuning really "forgives" human follow thru errors. And since the arm/hand is essentially the stock (at least in terms of induced torque) its not as visible in the rigid xbow...but probably there. The sensitivity of the system can change reqd spine....like a wheel to hardcam.


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## DJO (Dec 5, 2008)

I never really understood the importance of selecting the proper spine until I read this:

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_3.htm 

This link explains everything, is easy to understand, and will help you select the best arrow for your set up.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Tim Boone said:


> I understand the anaolgy.What difference would you see with a proper spinned bolt or an over spinned bolt?
> When you say a stiff spine undercorrects and flies left do you mean because of the cam cycle?


Every arrow shaft has to flex in flight, due to the nature of the string applying an abrupt thrusting force from behind. By attempting to use an overly stiff shaft, you will end up with a projectile that is hyper critical of any deviation in the launch sytsem and a tendency to impact off center of the target when things are not absolutely perfect. If you had a golf club with such a stiff shaft that it did not flex during the motion of the swing, would you presume that to be a good thing? Not if you ever played golf and studied the effects of tuned flexing for maximum power and accuracy. Or what if you used a deep sea fishing rod for bass fishing because it would never flex from the pulling of the fish. Arrow shaft spine is based on a measurement system of static flex and has been accepted for many centuries for matching a bow's performance and potential. Controlled flex or paradox is part of the process, as slow motion photography has demonstrated for decades.


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## utaharcher (Apr 18, 2004)

Tim Gillingham from Gold Tip told me that going with a stiffer arrow will not cause any problems at all.


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## Deerman1 (Feb 26, 2005)

with broadheads....stiffer is better


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## Tim Boone (Aug 22, 2010)

Has anyone seen any of the slow motion videos where there is hardly any flex.They launch pretty clean and fly straight.I know some guys shoot lighter spinned arrows to gain a few fps, but that is more of a problem then guys shooting arrows on the higher side.I think I use the term overspinned too loose when I mean the highest spinned arrow for your set up.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I would like to have the correct spine arrow but I have shot 500 to 150 spine out of a 55 lb bow using a bare shaft arrow and the results were the same. So I don't know if spine is really all that important when using a compound with a release. I also know that there are many that think that spine is critical for top performance. I hear people say that a correctly spined arrow is more forgiving. To me forgiving is a myth, you either do it right or you miss the target. I don't know of any equipment that will allow an arrow released off target hit the center. Again many people will say that they let the dot float and sometimes the shot goes off and the arrow will be an x. All I can say to this is that they were moving the dot back to the center and the shot broke and went into the x due to the movement towards the x.

I feel that an arrow with a very weak spine is more of a problem than a stiff arrow when shooting compound bows with a release.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

utaharcher said:


> Tim Gillingham from Gold Tip told me that going with a stiffer arrow will not cause any problems at all.


Once again, I challenge you to cut the fletching off your arrow and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards. Without the correcting factor of fletching, you will immediately see what happens if your arrow shaft is too stiff, perfectly spined or too weak. Rather than rely on the suggestions of others, do some tuning and testing for yourself and observe the results firsthand. Arrow spine can be effected by leaving a particular shaft long or cutting it shorter as well as trying various point weights (heavier weakens spine and lighter points stiffens spine). Thus when archers choose a shaft from a chart and then cut it down to the minimum length to achieve the lightest weight, they often find that their arrow flight is abruptly unpredicable because they have changed the dynamic spine inadvertantly. Test it for yourself.......


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Alaska at heart said:


> Once again, I challenge you to cut the fletching off your arrow and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards. Without the correcting factor of fletching, you will immediately see what happens if your arrow shaft is too stiff, perfectly spined or too weak. Rather than rely on the suggestions of others, do some tuning and testing for yourself and observe the results firsthand. Arrow spine can be effected by leaving a particular shaft long or cutting it shorter as well as trying various point weights (heavier weakens spine and lighter points stiffens spine). Thus when archers choose a shaft from a chart and then cut it down to the minimum length to achieve the lightest weight, they often find that their arrow flight is abruptly unpredicable because they have changed the dynamic spine inadvertantly. Test it for yourself.......


Good post. 

Talk is cheap, let your bare shaft do the talking.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Stiff shafts have always worked well for me, especially with fixed blade broadheads. With field tips I can get away with almost anything. To get good bare shaft flight or with broadheads I need a really stiff arrow, ACC 3-60 or 3-71 work for me out of my 55# bow, 29" dl. Both shafts are way over spined from the charts but work much better than the 3-39 or 3-49 shafts that are recommended. Bare shaft tuning is my favorite method, even more precise and fussy than broadhead tuning. These are my experiences, YMMV.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Most prefer paper tuning to bare shaft tuning because the results are much easier to process (or stomach). While an odd tear can be minimally adjusted with the turn of a screw or simply ignored, a bare shaft that planes away from the aiming point........or off the target butt is disconcerting to say the least. Thus it is much safer to blame the design of a given broadhead or brand of arrow shaft than take responsibility for learning and applying bow tuning principles. I spent 30+ years tuning stickbows shot off the shelf and learned a lot about arrow spine/tuning from trial and error. Purchasing a spine tester, a cutoff saw and a variety of point weights ended up being a very sound investment. Compounds are far easier in one respect because they have some many potential adjustments. However that also adds a wide range of variables that can confound those who don't have the patience or perseverance to learn it for themselves. Thus it is much easier to err on the stiff side and then wonder why certain broadheads are so crappy........:dontknow:


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

I think that "Alaska at heart" is right on the money here (canoe theory is awesome by the way). The stiff arrow theory is flawed since it assumes there is no lateral force on the arrow with a compound and release. One of the fellas who really stands behind this has also created a 3rd axis level for full draw, the only way your 3rd axis would change from stationary to full draw is bend in the riser which would cause a lateral force on the arrow. This is also why it is nearly impossible to tune a super stiff shaft straight down the middle.

I know a lot of pros shoot these super stiff arrows but you also need to look at the size of these pros. Most of the pros winning with these arrows outdoors have a 30"+ draw lengths and if they don't have the long draw they shoot very high poundage. So they probably aren't that stiff for them. 

With that being said I do believe that you are much better off with an arrow that is too stiff rather than an arrow that is too weak. I have shoot some good scores with stiff arrows, but I did have a lot of unexplainable "flyers".


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## redboyd7 (Nov 5, 2010)

Ask yourself why all the top shooters are using very heavy points shooting spots? They are trying to get the arrow to be better spined for their setup. Why? It has nothing to do with how well their setup shoots out of a shooting machine. At twenty yards the machine will hit the same hole with over spined. It all has to do with human error. When a top shooter finally feels the pressure on the "money shot" he wants all the forgivness he can get.


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## matjok (Oct 11, 2008)

Alaska at heart said:


> Once again, I challenge you to cut the fletching off your arrow and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards. Without the correcting factor of fletching, you will immediately see what happens if your arrow shaft is too stiff, perfectly spined or too weak. Rather than rely on the suggestions of others, do some tuning and testing for yourself and observe the results firsthand. Arrow spine can be effected by leaving a particular shaft long or cutting it shorter as well as trying various point weights (heavier weakens spine and lighter points stiffens spine). Thus when archers choose a shaft from a chart and then cut it down to the minimum length to achieve the lightest weight, they often find that their arrow flight is abruptly unpredicable because they have changed the dynamic spine inadvertantly. Test it for yourself.......


What if we take bare shafts with different spine deflections - one over spined, one correctly spined and one under spined by the general rules- and shoot them out of a mechanical shooter? By doing this we are taking all the variables out of the picture, except for the spine. Will they all fly the same way and hit the same spot? 

In other words, what exactly is the fletching correcting? The logical assumption is, the arrow will fly in the direction it was pointing when it was released, no matter what the spine is.
Am I wrong?


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## MT Olie (Nov 7, 2009)

_ Having a heck of a time w/ my AlphaBurner getting it to paper tune... Got nock travel dead center, then the big problem now is the 1" tear w/ the fletching to the left of the point... Tried different spine shafts and got worse, moved rest into riser cleaned up just a hair, but then I was getting vain contact with the riser, moved rest back out to center, so with that being done I'm now wondering if I need to go to a stiffer spine then the 340 spine???

27.50" DL
68# DW
425gr. arrow ACC/Pro HUNTERS, length 27" from front w/o insert to grove in nock, with 100gr. point 4" wrap and 3 BLAZER vains
--------------------------
Getting frustrated...... 
--------------------------
PRICELESS !!!!!

Going to try one more thing and back my poundage off to 65# or less and see if I can get bullet holes??? My hair is getting gray and I'm starting to pull it out... _


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## joker22 (Aug 21, 2009)

MT Olie said:


> _ Having a heck of a time w/ my AlphaBurner getting it to paper tune... Got nock travel dead center, then the big problem now is the 1" tear w/ the fletching to the left of the point... Tried different spine shafts and got worse, moved rest into riser cleaned up just a hair, but then I was getting vain contact with the riser, moved rest back out to center, so with that being done I'm now wondering if I need to go to a stiffer spine then the 340 spine???
> 
> 27.50" DL
> 68# DW
> ...


I don't think spine is an issue there. You are either torqueing your bow slightly, or you may have some cam lean that needs to be tuned out, imo.


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## MT Olie (Nov 7, 2009)

_If I'm torqueing the riser that is strange, I'm right handed and my grip is pinky, ring, birdie are beside the grip, pointer is relaxed and my thumb is just resting... Going to use different release, drop poundage, and use my two other grips, one solid 180 wood grip, the other is side plates and the cams are in perfect alignment..._


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

actually spine isnt alwayas relative to weight my velocity pros are .300 spine and only 8.3 grains an inch


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## joker22 (Aug 21, 2009)

MT Olie said:


> _If I'm torqueing the riser that is strange, I'm right handed and my grip is pinky, ring, birdie are beside the grip, pointer is relaxed and my thumb is just resting... Going to use different relaese, drop poundage, and use my two other grips, one soild wood, the other side plates and the cams are in perfect alignment..._


Sounds like you've covered your bases. I'm stumped. Hopefully somebody smarter than me can give more suggestions.


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## MT Olie (Nov 7, 2009)

_The only other problem is I'm using a different rest, might have to use my old rest and put it back on... _


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## zamolxes (Mar 6, 2009)

Alaska at heart said:


> A weak spine flexes too much and overcorrects to the right for a right handed shooter, while a stiff spine undercorrects and flies to the left for the same shooter.


 Hmmm....here is something I don't understand...I know this theory but for me it doesn't work and it's reverse. I bare shaft tune my bows too but if I shoot with full lenght shafts they fly to the left,if I cut them shorter and they are stiffer they fly to the right and I'm RH shooter. Why that?


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Alaska at heart said:


> Once again, I challenge you to cut the fletching off your arrow and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards. Without the correcting factor of fletching, you will immediately see what happens if your arrow shaft is too stiff, perfectly spined or too weak. Rather than rely on the suggestions of others, do some tuning and testing for yourself and observe the results firsthand. Arrow spine can be effected by leaving a particular shaft long or cutting it shorter as well as trying various point weights (heavier weakens spine and lighter points stiffens spine). Thus when archers choose a shaft from a chart and then cut it down to the minimum length to achieve the lightest weight, they often find that their arrow flight is abruptly unpredicable because they have changed the dynamic spine inadvertantly. Test it for yourself.......


I find this to be correct. Two years ago I did some fairly extensive bare shaft shooting. I was patient and methodical as I went making certain I found the correct spined arrows. I was amazed to find that I was able to shoot a bare shaft as far as 40 yards If I did my part right, which was the tough part. Nothing in all my years in archery has been as satisfying as seeing a bare shaft fly ture to the target with no fletchings from 20-40 yards. I wound up selling those two bows and I have not been able to duplicate it since.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

matjok said:


> What if we take bare shafts with different spine deflections - one over spined, one correctly spined and one under spined by the general rules- and shoot them out of a mechanical shooter? By doing this we are taking all the variables out of the picture, except for the spine. Will they all fly the same way and hit the same spot?
> 
> In other words, what exactly is the fletching correcting? The logical assumption is, the arrow will fly in the direction it was pointing when it was released, no matter what the spine is.
> Am I wrong?


If you took your scenario above, a shooting machine rigged to hit a specific aiming spot with a given arrow (say the underspined bare shaft), then the perfectly spined shaft and the overspined shaft would not hit the same spot on the target face. The machine would shoot a good group of stiff shafts in the same spot and a good group of perfectly spined shafts in a different spot, but the three types of shafts would not impact the same spot. Now if they were fletched arrows, they would impact much closer than the bare shafts because the fletching would be doing its job........and that is correcting imperfections. Now put a fixed blade broadhead on those same various spined fletched arrows and you are once again going to get three impact spots with a shooting machine because the physics will remain the same. 

Think of shooting three arrows of significantly different mass weight arrows from a shooting machine from a given distance (say 30 yards)..........would you predict they are all going to impact the same spot because the machine took all the human error out of the equation??? Once again, you are dealing with physics but this time in mass weight vs flexing and recovery of the shaft due to spine variations.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Alaska at heart said:


> Most prefer paper tuning to bare shaft tuning because the results are much easier to process (or stomach). While an odd tear can be minimally adjusted with the turn of a screw or simply ignored, a bare shaft that planes away from the aiming point........or off the target butt is disconcerting to say the least. Thus it is much safer to blame the design of a given broadhead or brand of arrow shaft than take responsibility for learning and applying bow tuning principles. I spent 30+ years tuning stickbows shot off the shelf and learned a lot about arrow spine/tuning from trial and error. Purchasing a spine tester, a cutoff saw and a variety of point weights ended up being a very sound investment. Compounds are far easier in one respect because they have some many potential adjustments. However that also adds a wide range of variables that can confound those who don't have the patience or perseverance to learn it for themselves. Thus it is much easier to err on the stiff side and then wonder why certain broadheads are so crappy........:dontknow:


Why is it most on indoor and 3d and Im talking pros shoot over spined fat shafts. Im talking really over spined with such good success. Hard for me to understand the concept. Always grouped tuned and have used Hooter Shooter and also bare shaft tune getting both arrows hitting at 20yrds with fletch or bare shaft. Really saw no indications of better scores. Use a Ram spine tester when fletching as well.
Watch some slow motion video of many different arrows at KC Pro am one time going past the rest< you saw alot of over spined did good going straight.
DB


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## zamolxes (Mar 6, 2009)

They say over spined arows will stabilise themselves faster, 20yards is not a long distance,that's why.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

zamolxes said:


> Hmmm....here is something I don't understand...I know this theory but for me it doesn't work and it's reverse. I bare shaft tune my bows too but if I shoot with full lenght shafts they fly to the left,if I cut them shorter and they are stiffer they fly to the right and I'm RH shooter. Why that?


It could be the way you have your bow setup in the first place. There was a "Quick Tune" video clip made by the AT brass on this forum a couple weeks ago that gave a very good method for setting up a bow. He took a blank sheet of roughly 18"x18" paper with a single straight line of black electrical tape down the center from edge to edge. He coached that you set up and shoot with it horizontal, sighted at 10 yards, then back up and shoot again at 20. If you hit low, then adjust your sight because it is set too low with a modern compound bow which should hit the same spot from 10 to 20 yards. If your rest is fixed (such as the lower end models of the Whisker Bisquit), then adjust your nock or D-loop slightly. Then turn the target so the line is vertical and shoot it at 20 so you impact the line. Then back up to 40 and shoot again. If you are off, he contends that it is due to your rest being off horizontally and adjust it so it hits the same line at both 20 and 40. At that point, you should be able to bare shaft tune your arrows and get predictable results. The only problem is that if your bow is set up with a weak or stiff arrow, then all your settings could be skewed to that particular shaft, as in my shooting machine illustration above.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Why is it most on indoor and 3d and Im talking pros shoot over spined fat shafts. Im talking really over spined with such good success. Hard for me to understand the concept. Always grouped tuned and have used Hooter Shooter and also bare shaft tune getting both arrows hitting at 20yrds with fletch or bare shaft. Really saw no indications of better scores. Use a Ram spine tester when fletching as well.
> Watch some slow motion video of many different arrows at KC Pro am one time going past the rest< you saw alot of over spined did good going straight.
> DB


First of all, you obviously know that the "fat" shafts are designed to be linecutters for a better score. Now if a highly skilled pro shooter sets up their equipment for a particular arrow shaft under controlled conditions and does well, that is kind of like a NASCAR crew setting up a race vehicle for a particular professional driver. Just because they intimately know their vehicle/bow setup and have the skill to make it work with a particular tweeking doesn't mean that you or I could jump in and do the same thing, eh? That is like presuming that if you had access to a Marine sniper rifle you would be able to hit small targets a mile away like a highly trained sniper. Just tossing stiff shafts into the mix because indoor pros do it is not the correct thinking..........especially for the backyard shooter and hunter.


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## zamolxes (Mar 6, 2009)

OK...the arrow rest (steel blade) is centered,the nock point is perfect...From 10 to 20 yards the bare shafts fly straight and they hit the same spot like the arrows,not 1/2 inch to the right or to the left or up or down. But if the shafts are under spined they fly left and if overspined right and it's not like the theory, first time I thought I missunderstood it or it was for LH shooters....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Alaska at heart said:


> First of all, you obviously know that the "fat" shafts are designed to be linecutters for a better score. Now if a highly skilled pro shooter sets up their equipment for a particular arrow shaft under controlled conditions and does well, that is kind of like a NASCAR crew setting up a race vehicle for a particular professional driver. Just because they intimately know their vehicle/bow setup and have the skill to make it work with a particular tweeking doesn't mean that you or I could jump in and do the same thing, eh? That is like presuming that if you had access to a Marine sniper rifle you would be able to hit small targets a mile away like a highly trained sniper. Just tossing stiff shafts into the mix because indoor pros do it is not the correct thinking..........especially for the backyard shooter and hunter.


Well said! Dean Pridgean was once told from another archer he had the worse arrow flight at the tournament. In the end he won and explained to the other archer he just got beat by the worse arrow flight in the tournament. He was shooting 2613 with normal 125 grn nibbs and that was unheard of at the time winning everthing. Arrow spine does fasinate me.
DB


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## matjok (Oct 11, 2008)

zamolxes said:


> OK...the arrow rest (steel blade) is centered,the nock point is perfect...From 10 to 20 yards the bare shafts fly straight and they hit the same spot like the arrows,not 1/2 inch to the right or to the left or up or down. But if the shafts are under spined they fly left and if overspined right and it's not like the theory, first time I thought I missunderstood it or it was for LH shooters....


And if there is absolutely no cam lean or cable induced torque, will this still be the case? Theoretically, provided all the above conditions are met with the center shot and centered nock, plus the cams always in line with no torque at all, will the arrows still behave the same way, shot from a mechanical shooter?


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## zamolxes (Mar 6, 2009)

No cam lean, no torque...BT release


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## zamolxes (Mar 6, 2009)

and single cam bow......


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Going back to my canoe analogy, a weak shaft flexes more and typically reacts for a right handed shooter like too much trust on the right side of the canoe, thus making it point and impact to the right. Conversely, a stiff shaft has too little flex and reacts like too much thrust on the left side of the canoe, thus making it point and impact to the left. Are both shafts the same length with the same grain weight of point? If you cut a weaker shaft down and use a lighter point, it will behave as a stiffer spine. Similarly, a stiffer spine left long with a heavier point will respond like a weaker spine. Without seeing your setup, I can't analyze what is occuring????


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## zamolxes (Mar 6, 2009)

Same shafts (VX22 V1), same 125 grns points. If a shoot a fletched 28" arrow(VX22 V1,125 grns point) at 20 yards it will hit the bullseye. Now,if I use a full lenght shaft this will hit the target 3" to the left of the fletched one,nock right, a 28" shaft will hit 3" to the right of the fletched one,nock left. If I cut 1" of the full lenght one it will hit the target in the same spot the fletched one did,bullseye, and it flies straight and in the target is parallel with the fletched ones. I read all what I found about bare shaft tuning but everywhere it's explained reverse.
I think it does't matter how the setup of the bow is once the theory says: over spined shafts go to the left and under spined to the right,......you cannot reverse that..... a not well centered arrow rest will make the over spined shaft to go more or less to the left but not to the right of the under spined ones ,and under spined shafts more or less to the right of the over spined ones. I could not find why my bow shoots different so I stopped thinking about it until this thread was started.


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## jamesaf2870 (Apr 18, 2004)

we dont all have a 32" draw like Tim. most arrows will spine out for his draw length and # a lot of us need to be more selective of our arrows.


utaharcher said:


> Tim Gillingham from Gold Tip told me that going with a stiffer arrow will not cause any problems at all.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jamesaf2870 said:


> we dont all have a 32" draw like Tim. most arrows will spine out for his draw length and # a lot of us need to be more selective of our arrows.


Several okies shoot xcutters cut quite short with good success and Jame Jamison who maybe is Ok. best is shooting the triple XXX cut short for indoor. Not just a TIM thing for sure. 
DB


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## mrdanner (Oct 31, 2008)

I shot one of my best scores ever with excessivly stiff arrows (2613, 150 grain nib, 28 inches, 52#) It seems like I remember reading that at one point (I am sure this is no longer true, pre-pro point days) Jesse Broadwater set his arrows up simmilarily. What I have found, since I started tuning my bow and arrows to each other (I use the computer to get me close and then bareshafts to get it precise-I usually use minor adjustments in draw weight (a la John Dudley) to put the bareshaft in the center of the target. Altjough I rarely shoot as good as i did on that one day with those very stiff shafts, I have found that on AVERAGE I shoot a correctly spined arrow (full length 2712 with 330 grain propoints) better. Take a look at the pro's and see how far their indoor arrows hang over the front of the rest. And as far as 3-d I think pro's can tune their equipment to themselves well enough, and execute so much more perfectly that they can get away with stiff arrows. I think the average guy (like myself) on average will shoot a properly spined arrow better.


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## Dyoory (Feb 13, 2011)

matjok said:


> But why do they have to flex?!!! Aren't they supposed to fly in a straight line, ideally with no flex at all?
> 
> What are the laws of physics involved here that I am not aware of?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8sFM


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## bravefeather (Dec 28, 2015)

an underspined arrow can explode in your face from a bow you can see i think if put an arrow on solid rock point down no broadhead put a 100# weight on top watch it bend or not its the same thing from a 70# compound bow from the way i see it. except it is moving but gravity is trying to hold it back .don't think to stiff is as much of a problem with compound bows but traditional is different .


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

My best shooting arrow is a VX-23 .300 cut to 28inches with 180gn tip for a total arrow weight of 451gn. These arrows shoot bullet holes at 59lbs out of my Supra and Anarchy HC. If you go by all the charts and programs I am way over spinned. Also shoot GT velocity .400 with 100gn tip nicely. However same arrow with 125gn tip is not so good out of the Anarchy.


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## xsalx (Feb 21, 2013)

Nice explanations here,but..arrow in flight is also spins ,is that not important factor?what if take a stiffer arrow, and put at least 4* helical vanes?if arrow need to lose energy in flight,why loose in flexing, when it can be losing in spining? maybe my point is wrong,an answer from real specialist will be welcomed. the answer"arrow must flex in flight"is not the answer. thank you.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

bravefeather said:


> an underspined arrow can explode in your face from a bow you can see i think if put an arrow on solid rock point down no broadhead put a 100# weight on top watch it bend or not its the same thing from a 70# compound bow from the way i see it. except it is moving but gravity is trying to hold it back .don't think to stiff is as much of a problem with compound bows but traditional is different .[/QUOTE
> 
> For testing purpose I have shot 500 spine from 70 lbs at 26 or so. They well not explode. The only way an arrow will break on shot is if it's already broke. A gold tip arrow will flex over 20 inches before it will break. If an arrow flexed very much at all it would not clear the sight.


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## dsdhunts (Aug 26, 2015)

A release can produce opisite spine reactions. 

Some pro's the winers anyway would be shooting weak with anything weaker then .250 spine levi pulls 74#

Indor spots yea i see alot shooting lite fir marathon shoots but 18 meters 

World and that one heavy bows get used again. The long distance one 70m x's

I do know alot think their over but by all common chart knowledge are still weak. A group change h to i is missed by many for 340 -350fps bows and two groups h to j is missed for over 350 fps many also miss addind overdraw poundage calc from arrows shorter than standard length and others count inserts and its a mess. 

Then after all that chart figuring you get what shoots right. 

Throws hands up and walks away flustered.


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## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

Charts are reference only, Shoot what works best for your setup as long as your not underspined no worries.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Yendorx (Jul 21, 2012)

Over spined should not be an issue for a properly tuned bow. I regularly shoot over spined arrows in competition as does most of the best shooters in the world.

Levi Morgan shoots a XXX which is a .100 spine. 

In the old days you needed enough flex for the arrow to bend around a riser and fly to the target while being just stiff enough to come back out of paradox to fly straight.

I shoot 30x pros cut 3/4 inch past the rest and they bullet hole as early as 3' through paper and as far back as I could test shooting every couple feet.

It always floors me how much effort people put into getting 2 aerodynamically different projectiles that weigh different as well to hit in the same spot at distance.


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## Trippy (Dec 26, 2014)

Yendorx said:


> Over spined should not be an issue for a properly tuned bow. I regularly shoot over spined arrows in competition as does most of the best shooters in the world.
> 
> Levi Morgan shoots a XXX which is a .100 spine.
> 
> ...


Like said earlier, the average shooter could have issues with anything other than optimum spine. Pros are almost like robots pounding the same hole over and over because they can repeat the same shot almost everytime. The whole idea is to get forgiveness. Wolf44 is a pretty smart dude and a great shot...read what he said here.


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## Yendorx (Jul 21, 2012)

Trippy said:


> Like said earlier, the average shooter could have issues with anything other than optimum spine. Pros are almost like robots pounding the same hole over and over because they can repeat the same shot almost everytime. The whole idea is to get forgiveness. Wolf44 is a pretty smart dude and a great shot...read what he said here.


I disagree....as long as they have adequate spine and up they will be fine if the bow is punching bullet holes. Having the magic amount of spine will not give them forgiveness enough to benefit unless the bow is way out of centershot and the arrow is like being shot from an old string bow.

There are people who insist they get their bareshafts to hit with field points at 40 yards like ots some magic thing. From a physics perspective I dont see how such could be beneficial.

Most of them would be better served learning and honing better form than trying to become some mystical tuning guru.


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## Yendorx (Jul 21, 2012)

Or for that matter putting in time to set the bow up so that it fits them perfectly.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

If your form is bad and your bow is improperly tuned your not going have bare shafts hit with field points at 20yds let alone 40.


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## Makaveli (May 18, 2011)

For field I use 600 spine out of a 52# 28" DL. They look kinda goofy comin out of the bow, but they group phenomenally better than 400, 450,500 spine arrows. 

I was told to error on the weak side of charts, and then go one lower than that. It's worked for me...for field/fita.

For hunting I stay within the right spine realm according to charts.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

DJO said:


> I never really understood the importance of selecting the proper spine until I read this:
> 
> http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_3.htm
> 
> This link explains everything, is easy to understand, and will help you select the best arrow for your set up.


I'm no arrow engineer but I can assure you that from my years of experience, the universal chart shown in there will get a person close on arrow spine. Yes you may want to tweak it some, but that chart is a very good starting point.

Additionally, I agree that it's not all that difficult to get an over spined arrow to shoot well. But there are some kickers to that. 

One of which is the type of bow you are shooting in terms of the different cam systems. If a bow has yokes, it's more easily tweaked for an arrow that may be considered over spined. However, if you are shooting a binary cam bow with no yokes, then choosing an arrow that is close to the optimum spine will make your tuning job much more user friendly. Yes one could shim cams over a few thousands to obtain better results when tuning a binary for bare shafts or broadheads with an overly stiff arrow, but if you can get the same results using an arrow that is considered to be of optimum spine, then why go through the hassle to begin with? 

Then we have broadhead tuning where the same principle applies. I find it much easier to get a properly spined arrow to broadhead tune. This will become more apparent as the distance is increased. 

If you really want to see the difference between an arrow that is considered to be of optimum spine, as opposed to an arrow that is over spined, shoot a bare shaft from at least 20 yards. That will give one a real dose of reality. 

My .02

Skeet.


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## redwagon (Nov 29, 2014)

Alaska at heart said:


> Once again, I challenge you to cut the fletching off your arrow and shoot a bare shaft at 20 yards. Without the correcting factor of fletching, you will immediately see what happens if your arrow shaft is too stiff, perfectly spined or too weak. Rather than rely on the suggestions of others, do some tuning and testing for yourself and observe the results firsthand. Arrow spine can be effected by leaving a particular shaft long or cutting it shorter as well as trying various point weights (heavier weakens spine and lighter points stiffens spine). Thus when archers choose a shaft from a chart and then cut it down to the minimum length to achieve the lightest weight, they often find that their arrow flight is abruptly unpredicable because they have changed the dynamic spine inadvertantly. Test it for yourself.......


^^^ this right here. When you truly start tuning your bow, so that even an arrow without any fletching will fly straight out of it, you will see how important spine is. Although, I want to personally run the stiffest spine I can and still get bareshaft and Broadhead tune out of my bow.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Skeeter 58 said:


> I'm no arrow engineer but I can assure you that from my years of experience, the universal chart shown in there will get a person close on arrow spine. Yes you may want to tweak it some, but that chart is a very good starting point.
> 
> Additionally, I agree that it's not all that difficult to get an over spined arrow to shoot well. But there are some kickers to that.
> 
> ...


Why do you think a bow with yokes can tune a overspine arrow easier.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Makaveli said:


> For field I use 600 spine out of a 52# 28" DL. They look kinda goofy comin out of the bow, but they group phenomenally better than 400, 450,500 spine arrows. I was told to error on the weak side of charts, and then go one lower than that. It's worked for me...for field/fita.


I'm just the opposite. I shoot 40-43# with a 27.5" DL and shoot 520-570 spined arrows with 110-120gr points for field and FITA very consistently and without tuning issues, but the charts say I should be shooting between a 650-720 spined arrow. I have found that with today's more aggressive cams, many bows prefer an arrow that is slightly stiffer spined.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

enewman said:


> Why do you think a bow with yokes can tune a overspine arrow easier.


In terms of lateral adjustments.........with yokes you have more built in tools to work with. 

Binary cam bows only have the arrow rest. That is unless you want to shim the cams or swap places with the limbs. 

Thus if one selects an arrow of optimum spine it makes things a whole lot easier.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Skeeter 58 said:


> In terms of lateral adjustments.........with yokes you have more built in tools to work with.
> 
> Binary cam bows only have the arrow rest. That is unless you want to shim the cams or swap places with the limbs.
> 
> Thus if one selects an arrow of optimum spine it makes things a whole lot easier.


Yes sir I understand what it's for. I was asking why you thought it needed for overspine arrows. Under and over spine arrows do not give you a horzontal tear.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Here is an 350 spine. You can see as I drop tip weight the high tear sing of underspined gets less.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Here is a 300 spine at 24 3/8 long. You can see as I went up in tip weight it got closer to correct spine for this bow.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

My 45 lbs 28" draw bow shoots 600 to 150 spine fine. I shoot triple x's with 300 grain points and 2" blazer vanes and they bare shaft tune. If I do my job it will punch the center of the x out with no problem. I also shoot the triple x's with 150 grain points and they shoot great just a little faster.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

enewman said:


> Yes sir I understand what it's for. I was asking why you thought it needed for overspine arrows. Under and over spine arrows do not give you a horzontal tear.


I never said you need to have yokes to shoot an over spined arrow. What I said was it makes it easier to tune for them. 

I've always gotten better results with an arrow of optimum spine on binary cam bows. Simply put, it makes tuning much more easy considering there is no yokes to tweak. This becomes more noticeable when shooting bare shafts out to 25 yards and for broadheads.

Don't get me wrong because I have shot plenty of over spined arrows, still have a few laying around. It can be done quite well with fletched arrows. 

I don't even bother with paper tuning. Bare shaft tuning gives me all the information I need. When I see a bare shaft hit the target perfectly with fletched arrows from 25 yards +, I know my arrow spine is good. 

One of the most rewarding things I've ever done in archery was to shoot bare shafts from 40 yards and watch them hit the dot. That's when a shaft of optimum spine pays off. 

Only been able to do that with 2-3 bows and haven't been able to do it since.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

enewman said:


> Here is a 300 spine at 24 3/8 long. You can see as I went up in tip weight it got closer to correct spine for this bow.


That makes perfect sense considering you got the spine closer to optimum.

The only other factor I can see is paper can be deceptive if not shot from different distances, like 25 yards. Another factor is it could be the way you are gripping the bow. 

Again, this is where bare shaft tuning pays off. It tells me that not only is my arrows and bow correct, but the way I'm gripping the bow and my overall form as well.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I've shot voerspined arrows for almost 2 decades and had great BH flight with many bows [300's when the spine chart says 340's]. The only time I ran into problems tuning with BH's is when I'm on the edge of underspined...or when I found an arrow in the bunch that had poor spine consistency. 

This discussion may be semantics as I'm talking overspined by one size higher............not something like a Stainless steel rod


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes indeed, you can shoot most any bow with an over spined arrow. I've done it myself and still do actually. It just depends on how much work you want to put into it.

I still prefer using an arrow of optimum spine and of proper length as I have found I get better down range bare shaft results and it's easier to tune the bow for. 

No one will ever convince me that shooting a shorter, over spined arrow will be as good as an optimum spined arrow of proper length. 

IMO, the shorter over spined arrow will also lose more of it's energy due to the fletchings working harder trying to correct it and maintain it on the proper path, esp with broadheads.


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## Adamsdjr (Aug 17, 2015)

Skeeter 58 said:


> Yes indeed, you can shoot most any bow with an over spined arrow. I've done it myself and still do actually. It just depends on how much work you want to put into it.
> 
> I still prefer using an arrow of optimum spine and of proper length as I have found I get better down range bare shaft results and it's easier to tune the bow for.
> 
> ...


How do you determine "optimum spine". Do you use Eastons chart? OT2? What happens when you get a different answer from a different spine recommendation source? When you change from a 100 grain to a 125 grain insert do you change shaft lenght, change inserts. Do your shoot arrows and then adjust lenght or weight find the optimimum spine?


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

What I do is this. I've been basically shooting the same type set up for a few years now. I know my DL, DW, arrow length, optimum arrow spine and point weight. I've basically been shooting the same brand arrows and broadheads as well. 

In other words, I have a very good idea of where to begin. Even when changing to a bow that was a little more aggressive on the draw, I was still in the wheel house, so to speak. So I really don't change much at all. 

I bare shaft tune my bow and I bare shaft tune my arrows by nock tuning them. When I get them to hit with field points out to at least 25 yards +, then when I screw on a broadhead I find they will almost always hit with, or very close to, field points. 

This year I have a different brand of arrows that are slightly stiffer but not by much. So far the bare shafts are hitting very close to fletched from 25 yards. It's so close that I don't even want to mess with it any more.

But to answer one of your questions..........yes way back when I used an arrow chart from the arrow manufacturer to get the basic skinny. But as shown in another post in this thread, even a universal arrow chart will be a good starting point. I never used it but I did check it out today and it does indeed put me close to where I need to be. 

I honestly believe a lot of people put more into this than what is needed.


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## MDWormer (Sep 25, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJoTXRQNDPA


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Skeeter 58 said:


> What I do is this. I've been basically shooting the same type set up for a few years now. I know my DL, DW, arrow length, optimum arrow spine and point weight. I've basically been shooting the same brand arrows and broadheads as well.
> 
> In other words, I have a very good idea of where to begin. Even when changing to a bow that was a little more aggressive on the draw, I was still in the wheel house, so to speak. So I really don't change much at all.
> 
> ...


You do not know if you have optimum spine. You are tuning the bow. To that arrow. This is how most everyone does it. The good thing is there is a lot of fudge factor so it dosent matter. 

Now some of us do put more into it as needed. But that is how we change things and learn. 

At this time I'm testing a step different in finding that optimum spine. But I have only started in the testing. 

But what I have done so far is set bow to spec. And cams sync, level nock. I took a 200 spine very stiff arrow and shot it through the paper. At 3 ft. And adjusted top limb only to correct for bad nock travel. Got a hole. Backed up to 8 yards and repeat till I got a hole. In my thinking if arrow has a no to minimum flex I'm setting bow to zero nock travel. Now I,take my arrow and shoot. I adjust arrow only by trimming. Till it hits a hole. This means the arrow is at optimum spine for that bow. I have this now. And I have not touched the bow after seting to a extream stiff arrow. 

I tested my bare and fletch at 20 yards. I'm off just a touch. But the bare shaft looks like a lazer to,the target. 

I now will start testing on other bows to see if I can repeat the results.


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

enewman said:


> You do not know if you have optimum spine. You are tuning the bow. To that arrow. This is how most everyone does it. The good thing is there is a lot of fudge factor so it dosent matter.
> 
> Now some of us do put more into it as needed. But that is how we change things and learn.
> 
> ...


When you are doing your testing, in what position are you placing the spine and is it consistent in placement when using less stiff arrows?
The same questions would apply if you are turning your nocks, when you achieve your desired results, what position does the spine end up at with differing spine values?

GRIM


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## tspiri (Feb 1, 2013)

if you shoot under spined arrows and try to tune for proper broadhead flight you might have lots of trouble. When you shoot field points they can hide a lot of imperfections in your setup. If you're under spined, put a fixed broadhead on and you'll see all sorts of wonky flight from what was once a relatively smooth, accurate shooting bow.

I was looking to shoot some heavier arrow shaft/broadhead combinations and couldn't get them to tune until I tried shooting a stiffer arrow in my case a .300 shaft everything worked out perfectly after that. Great broadhead flight out to 60 yards they hit right along side my field points.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

GRIMWALD said:


> When you are doing your testing, in what position are you placing the spine and is it consistent in placement when using less stiff arrows?
> The same questions would apply if you are turning your nocks, when you achieve your desired results, what position does the spine end up at with differing spine values?
> 
> GRIM


Grim. At this point ive done it with out spine indexing. I'm going to do several bows this way. Then I will start over and spine index and try different positions. I did wonder if I needed to spine index my reference shaft. The 200 spine. But I figured it would be so stiff that it would not matter. But going to do another bow today. When we set up. I will turn the nock on the referance arrow and see if it makes a difference. I would like to get a 150 spine for a reverence arrow.

I will start a new thread tonight and see what happens

Eric


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

enewman said:


> Grim. At this point ive done it with out spine indexing. I'm going to do several bows this way. Then I will start over and spine index and try different positions. I did wonder if I needed to spine index my reference shaft. The 200 spine. But I figured it would be so stiff that it would not matter. But going to do another bow today. When we set up. I will turn the nock on the referance arrow and see if it makes a difference. I would like to get a 150 spine for a reverence arrow.
> 
> I will start a new thread tonight and see what happens
> 
> Eric


Make a call to Jerry, I seem to remember him saying that he can get Black Eagle shafts up to 32" long and if you double wall the first 6" or 7" inches, this should get you up to your 150 range.

GRIM

Continue with your original testing parameters, just at the end, check your spine position, I would be curious to know if the spine stiffness changes the optimum placement.


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