# definition of a hunting bow by P&Y



## Jim C

Pope and YOung once tried to keep compounds out of hunting season but that was a losing battle. 

Poop and Dung created a definition designed to keep crossbows out.

they are dishonest and would get laughed out of court if they tried to appear in an expert capacity

Who gives a Damn what they say?> They don't speak for most people and they are elitists by definition. Non-political groups from the ATA to government regulatory agencies all consider crossbows part of archery

These include

US Archery
the National Field Archery Association
the IBO
The Archery Trade Association
the Government agencies charged with adminstering the Robinson-Pittman Act

poop and dung have an absolute right to tell their members what bows they can use for entry into the ego book. As to telling people who are not members what they should use is idiotic. Its like a religion--if the catholics tell their members not to eat meat during lent-that is fine. God held them if they tried to force us who are Protestant, Jewish, Islamists or agnostics from not being able to eat meat during that period


----------



## marbowNC

It matters what they say if you kill a buck big enough to score !! You just can't handle the truth !! A crossbow is fun to shoot paper with im sure . When it comes to Bow hunting you just got to face the facts there not a hunting bow by definition !!


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> It matters what they say if you kill a buck big enough to score !! You just can't handle the truth !! A crossbow is fun to shoot paper with im sure . When it comes to Bow hunting you just got to face the facts there not a hunting bow by definition !!


wrong-its not a hunting bow according to an elitist group that really should have no say as to what non Members use when they bow hunt

Speaking of truth-aren't you the guy who claimed you could shoot better groups with a compound than our country's world class target archers such as Erika Anschutz, Dave Cousins, and Reo Wilde?

Most states now consider a crossbow a hunting bow

another fact that seems to get in the way of your fantasies


----------



## BigBirdVA

Didn't know if would be Moe, Larry, or Curly starting it up again but here it is - one more time. 

Don't they get it why these thread keep getting locked? Guess they don't get lots of things.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Oh look! the typical name calling that hopes to shut down threads. Always predictable.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Oh look! the typical name calling that hopes to shut down threads. Always predictable.


Please only a fool or group of fools would keep trying to do something that's obviously not to the mods liking here. You don't see that? Or don't care or maybe both? 

There is no need to keep it going. And the try to cloak it under some other initial post isn't working out too well either. I don't need a name to use for that maneuver, we all know what it is.

Run along back to PBS land and your state forum and keep it going there. Oh that's right they shut you down there too. Maybe you can make your own forum that way you can whine all day and no one can lock it down.


----------



## Tim50

> definition of a hunting bow by P&Y


What does this post have to do with this forum? This poster is just trolling! The anti crossbow crowd takes every opportunity to post their opinion. They have a right to do so just put it in the right forum! Typical from the anti crossbow crowd.The Mod's should delete this trolling attempt & give a warning! The last I checked the powers that be have spoken in NC. Full inclusion!!! Move on & hunt!!!


----------



## marbowNC

Jim C said:


> wrong-its not a hunting bow according to an elitist group that really should have no say as to what non Members use when they bow hunt
> 
> Speaking of truth-aren't you the guy who claimed you could shoot better groups with a compound than our country's world class target archers such as Erika Anschutz, Dave Cousins, and Reo Wilde?
> 
> Most states now consider a crossbow a hunting bow
> 
> another fact that seems to get in the way of your fantasies


Why do you always wanna go off to some subject that has nothing to do with anything we're talkin' bout ! But for your info , I never clamed to be the best , I told you what kinda groups I can shoot , I don't care if you belive me or not !! I don't have to go prove it to the world , I do it for 2 reasons , practice for deer season and I just enjoy being out shooting !! But back to the subject , If someone shoot a buck big enough for books it will NOT count using a crossbow !! I just want the people that use this weapon to know this if they decide to hunt just BIG bucks !!


----------



## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> Pope and Young
> 
> Definition of Hunting bow, arrow, and broadhead
> 
> I. Hunting Bow
> 
> A. A hunting bow for big game shall be a longbow, flat bow, recurve bow, compound bow or any combination of these designs meeting the following requirements and restrictions:
> 
> •A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.
> •The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter's body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.
> •The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter's eiter relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.
> •The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.
> B. Exceptions:
> 
> Physically handicapped bowhunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.
> 
> C. Exclusions
> 
> 1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:
> 
> •A crossbow
> •Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter's muscle power.
> •Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.
> •No portion of the bow's riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow's riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow's brace height.
> D. Let-Off for Compound Bows:
> 
> Definition of let-off: That characteristic of a bow that results in a reduction of the force necessary to increase the draw length after the highest level of draw force has been reached. This is characteristic generally associated with, but not restricted to, compound bows.
> 
> The maximum let-off on a compound bow shall be measured at a point in the draw cycle after the peak draw weight has been attained. It shall be measured near the end of the draw cycle where the minimum holding force is reached. This point in the draw cycle on a compound bow is known as "the bottom of the valley."
> 
> Determination of the percent of let-off: The values of the peak draw force and the let-off force shall be used to calculate the percent of let-off. The peak force is the maximum force obtained during the draw cycle. The let-off force is the lowest force reached following the peak force during a single uninterrupted draw cycle. In all cases, both the highest and lowest force shall be read from a scale during a single and continual pull condition, without relaxation. This technique eliminates the introduction of hysteresis, which can distort the reading.
> 
> % Let-off = 100 X [(Peak Draw Force) - (Minimum Holding Force)] / (Peak Draw Force)
> 
> Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable
> 
> II. Hunting Arrow
> 
> A. A hunting arrow shall have the following characteristics:
> 
> •It shall be a projectile at least 20 inches overall length. The length of the arrow shall be measured from the rearward point of the nock to the tip of the broadhead.
> •Fletching shall be attached to the aft end.
> •A broadhead shall be mounted on the fore end.
> •The arrow shall weigh no less than 300 grains with the broadhead attached.
> B. Exclusions:
> 
> •No electronic or battery-powered devices shall be attached to the arrow.
> •No poison, drug, or explosives shall be attached to the arrow.
> III. Hunting Broadhead
> 
> A. The broadhead for big game shall meet the following requirements:
> 
> Possess two or more sharp cutting edges, fixed or movable, that can be sharpened and/or replaced.
> 
> Be at least 7/8 inches wide at the widest point of the sharp cutting edges.
> 
> Weigh no less than 70 grains.


And Pope and Young have WHAT to do with "hunting"? Nothing. They survive only so that some can brag about their trophy's to be taken by ONLY what they see as what they want and criteria. Their definition has NOTHING to with reality. The olympics uses .22's for Biathalons. They could have used .308's but chose not to. 

We have traditional shoots for muzzleloaders using only flintlocks too, but that doesn't mean an inline isn't a muzzleloader. The Savage has a muzzleloader that can use smokeless powder. Does that mean it is not a muzzleloader? No! 

That Pope and Young says that for THEM a crossbow does not meet the definition of a bow is IRRELEVANT and look to what length they have gone to specify what a bow is. It's rediculous. 

Also, the Pope and Young today is meaningless anyway. When you take into account the manner and methods available to us for hunting today, and they seem to make such a huge deal about 65% let-off what about NO LET OFF? What about 99% Let-off... what is the difference if you allow ANY let-off. They're a phony organization that has lost their credibility and glamour. 

But, they don't define archery equipment by their defintions because a crossbow IS archery and they are being disengenuous. As for hunting, archery is archery, and if it is POWERED by a bow, it IS a bow, period. A cross bow is.... TaDa.... a bow.

Aloha.. :beer:


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> Why do you always wanna go off to some subject that has nothing to do with anything we're talkin' bout ! But for your info , I never clamed to be the best , I told you what kinda groups I can shoot !! I don't have to go prove it to the world , I can prove it every deer season !!


your claims were causing lots of laughs at nationals including the father of the girl who won both compound events and has the highest score ever shot at a FITA world championship.. 

at what does Poop and Dung have to do with legislation? speaking of stuff that has no relevance. In your state xbows are legal hunting bows. In my state they have been for almost 35 years.

Poop and Dung has no relevance to this forum.


----------



## marbowNC

Jim C said:


> your claims were causing lots of laughs at nationals including the father of the girl who won both compound events and has the highest score ever shot at a FITA world championship..
> 
> at what does Poop and Dung have to do with legislation? speaking of stuff that has no relevance. In your state xbows are legal hunting bows. In my state they have been for almost 35 years.
> 
> Poop and Dung has no relevance to this forum.


whoop de dooo !! who care what she scores on paper !! That means nothing , let her try to judge distance and shoot a deer , then see what happens . I got nothing against anyone who shoot feild archery , but come on get real , It is to easy when you know the yardage . These people wouldn't have a clue how to judge yardage with out a range finder !! If there so good then I wouldn't waste my time with feild archery , I would go to the pro ASA !!


----------



## marbowNC

You got a 12 ring bout the size of a quater to shoot at and you have to judge your yardage , do that and win a few times , then come brag some !!


----------



## BigBirdVA

marbowNC said:


> whoop de dooo !! who care what she scores on paper !! That means nothing , let her try to judge distance and shoot a deer , then see what happens . I got nothing against anyone who shoot feild archery , but come on get real , It is to easy when you know the yardage . These people wouldn't have a clue how to judge yardage with out a range finder !! If there so good then I wouldn't waste my time with feild archery , I would go to the pro ASA !!


Translation = 291 with 38 X ! LOL


----------



## marbowNC

If I couldn't shoot even or better I would just stop shooting tournaments !!


----------



## BigBirdVA

marbowNC said:


> If I couldn't shoot even or better I would just stop shooting tournaments !!


I hear Walgreen's has Tylenol on sale this week. It's real good for those aches and pains from patting yourself on the back all day. Doesn't do much for swollen heads.


----------



## marbowNC

BigBirdVA said:


> I hear Walgreen's has Tylenol on sale this week. It's real good for those aches and pains from patting yourself on the back all day. Doesn't do much for swollen heads.


Is this why you shoot a crossbow ? You can't even hit the 10 ring on a target with a bow ?! Maybe good thing you do use a crossbow !!


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> Is this why you shoot a crossbow ? You can't even hit the 10 ring on a target with a bow ?! Maybe good thing you do use a crossbow !!


wanna shoot against me with an olympic recurve at 70Meters for some serious money? 

you just don't stop do you


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> whoop de dooo !! who care what she scores on paper !! That means nothing , let her try to judge distance and shoot a deer , then see what happens . I got nothing against anyone who shoot feild archery , but come on get real , It is to easy when you know the yardage . These people wouldn't have a clue how to judge yardage with out a range finder !! If there so good then I wouldn't waste my time with feild archery , I would go to the pro ASA !!


I guess you cannot figure out that if someone is good enough to constantly beat the best compound archers in the world and win pressure packed events like the NFAA indoor PRO division and the US Open she is gonna destroy someone like you in any venue. 

how many 300's have you shot in registered tournaments.


----------



## Jim C

BigBirdVA said:


> Translation = 291 with 38 X ! LOL


I love it when the foam bunny slayers pretend that pro spot shooters cannot judge yardage. He ought to tell that to Cousins and Van Natta who have a ton of world and national field medals-which features 72 arrows at unmarked distance (and on Euro-field courses, most of the marked distance shots require more judging than the foam bunny slayers will ever see)


----------



## marbowNC

The truth will set you free !! Serious BowHunters use a verticle bow !!


----------



## BigBirdVA

marbowNC said:


> Is this why you shoot a crossbow ? You can't even hit the 10 ring on a target with a bow ?! Maybe good thing you do use a crossbow !!


Where at in NC are you? NC line is less than 20 miles from me. You know you might want to check some things out before opening your yapper on how great you are.


BTW I shoot a xbow because I want too.


----------



## marbowNC

LOL... maybe you should do the same , all you do is insult every time I post with no anwser to nothing !! So I just thought I'd repay the favor !!


----------



## BigBirdVA

What insult? Got some proof ? Put up or shut up.


----------



## marbowNC

BigBirdVA said:


> Please only a fool or group of fools would keep trying to do something that's obviously not to the mods liking here. You don't see that? Or don't care or maybe both?
> 
> There is no need to keep it going. And the try to cloak it under some other initial post isn't working out too well either. I don't need a name to use for that maneuver, we all know what it is.
> 
> Run along back to PBS land and your state forum and keep it going there. Oh that's right they shut you down there too. Maybe you can make your own forum that way you can whine all day and no one can lock it down.


There we go !! PROOF !!


----------



## marbowNC

BigBirdVA said:


> Didn't know if would be Moe, Larry, or Curly starting it up again but here it is - one more time.
> 
> Don't they get it why these thread keep getting locked? Guess they don't get lots of things.


Need some more PROOF!!


----------



## marbowNC

BigBirdVA said:


> Translation = 291 with 38 X ! LOL


Heres some MORE !!


----------



## marbowNC

You have not provided one shred of evedence for your claim to allow crossbows all you have is insult after insult after insult !! I have provided the info that states a crossbow is not a hunting bow !! If you need to see it again I can post it ?!


----------



## marbowNC

And to make a few of you happy I posted this under another forum as well !!


----------



## BigBirdVA

I thought this was a P&Y thread not one about xbows. Why it appears you've slipped up a bit there and shown your true intentions. 

Want proof? Lets see VA made them legal what 4 years ago and NC made them legal this year. Proof given. 
VA - 1
NC - 1
P&Y - 0
Game over.


----------



## marbowNC

Im sorry for offened anyone , It wasn't the right thing to do and im sorry . Things get a little heated with this subject and we will never see eye to eye on them !!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

BigBirdVA said:


> Please only a fool or group of fools would keep trying to do something that's obviously not to the mods liking here. You don't see that? Or don't care or maybe both?



I agree in regards to this thread. It is not related to legislation. I have been working on something that is legislatively related and I will post about it soon. My guess is that that a few here are going to go off the deep end.


----------



## BigBirdVA

You can post all the opinions you want on anything you can dream up. Won't change the future and what's in store. 

Sorry about your ability to see trends and figure out what comes next. But facts support one thing and you try to support another that's unproven. It can't happen. 


Too bad you and P&Y can't spend as much effort trying to keep hunters together as you do trying to drive a wedge in them.


I'm not going off the deep end. I learned long ago you can't fix stupid. Besides I have mine. I get to xbow hunt from Oct - Jan. I have 3,000 + acres of private land to hunt on in several counties all over VA. I can shoot unlimited does for the most part and 3 bucks. Not much you can do or come up with that will bother me with that to look forward to. VA figured it out, in time others will too.


----------



## marbowNC

I posted this to show people that using a crossbow will not allow them to use the same scoring system that a verticle bow uses . This was my intention , and I allowed it to turn the other way . It is stupid for anyone to call someone names for expressing there veiws !! Im as guilty as anyone else here for doing that !! If you have a commit about this and cannot do it without calling names or insulting then keep your mouth shut !!


----------



## Tim50

Believe it or not all hunters live & die with P&Y. Some hunters harvest the deer for their own satisfaction!


----------



## BigBirdVA

Peta says I shouldn't hunt at all. They're a club or a group that has standards they think you should adhere to. So does P&Y. Do I have to follow either? No. Again look at the polls on here about how many care what P&Y says. Not everyone drinks the Koolaid. :darkbeer:


Why don't you go over on the camera forum and advise the thousands that use trail cans their buck won't make it in P&Y if they used it before they shot the deer. See what they tell you ! LOL


----------



## rattus58

Question: If I have a trail cam and tell you about a deer that scores for Pope and Young (which by the way I feel have besmirched the names of both Saxon Pope and Arthur Young who were in the sport for the knowledge and experience and how to build bows and hunt with Ishii), would you be able to enter it if it wasn't your cam and we weren't related?

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> Question: If I have a trail cam and tell you about a deer that scores for Pope and Young (which by the way I feel have besmirched the names of both Saxon Pope and Arthur Young who were in the sport for the knowledge and experience and how to build bows and hunt with Ishii), would you be able to enter it if it wasn't your cam and we weren't related?
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


Well the guys over at DungVille thought about that. They have this little jewel of a rule...........



> Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.


So no ! LOL You would be an accessory after the fact.


----------



## rattus58

BigBirdVA said:


> Well the guys over at DungVille thought about that. They have this little jewel of a rule...........
> 
> 
> 
> So no ! LOL You would be an accessory after the fact.


And any other little thing they deem unacceptable.... :grin:

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## 2nd_Shot

I like this one, _No electronic or battery-powered devices shall be attached to the arrow_, guess lighted nocks are out of the question too.

IMO P&Y is a book for sportsmen. As a hunter I could care less my trophey is on the wall.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

2nd_Shot said:


> IMO P&Y is a book for sportsmen.



Yes, I think that was the point of this thread.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, I think that was the point of this thread.


LOL ! Unbelievable! :mg: Is English your second language? You can't even admit something that the OP clearly stated. Here let me help you out by pointing it out for you......Post #35 page 1.......



> I posted this to show people that using a crossbow will not allow them to use the same scoring system that a verticle bow uses .



By his own admission it's another anti-xbow post. Nice try on shifting the true intentions but like the rest of your thinly veiled game it's easy to see right through. 

Go back to PBS land, work on something better and come back and try again.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, I think that was the point of this thread.


Some can justify anything to support their anti crossbow agenda. This post is just there to stir the pot...What does P&Y's defination of a bow have to do with anything in the "Legislation & Hunting Rights Forum"? Just ANOTHER anti crossbow zelot grasping for straws! Remember the crossbow community deals in facts not emotion, personal agenda & wishful thinking! Last I checked crossbow inclusion is moving along a a nice pace. Some states will be harder than others BUT it will happen! Our job is to make sure the truth is put out there for all to see. Fellow hunters will see the anti crossbow types are also anti hunter....These anti crossbow organizations are promoting hunter against hunter confronations...this is good for no one. Hunters see this! The crossbow community is taking the high road promoting hunters & hunting opportunities bolstered by unbiased facts from states that have some sort of inclusion. The crossbow community has nothing to fear from these facts....where as truth & facts are the anti crossbow/hunters organizations worst nightmare!......


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, I think that was the point of this thread.


Well obviously there are just thousands upon thousands of Compound archers out there who just aren't sportsmen. What a pity, they all shoot legal equipment.

But that's all right.... the truth will set you free, and agenda like yours will constantly keep you at odds with hunters. It's clear you do not respect the hundreds of thousands of archers out there who use lighted nocks, trail cams, 80% or more letoff, range finders, lasers, and I'm assuming also GPS.

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## rattus58

Tim50 said:


> Some can justify anything to support their anti crossbow agenda. This post is just there to stir the pot...What does P&Y's defination of a bow have to do with anything in the "Legislation & Hunting Rights Forum"? Just ANOTHER anti crossbow zelot grasping for straws! Remember the crossbow community deals in facts not emotion, personal agenda & wishful thinking! Last I checked crossbow inclusion is moving along a a nice pace. Some states will be harder than others BUT it will happen! Our job is to make sure the truth is put out there for all to see. Fellow hunters will see the anti crossbow types are also anti hunter....These anti crossbow organizations are promoting hunter against hunter confronations...this is good for no one. Hunters see this! The crossbow community is taking the high road promoting hunters & hunting opportunities bolstered by unbiased facts from states that have some sort of inclusion. The crossbow community has nothing to fear from these facts....where as truth & facts are the anti crossbow/hunters organizations worst nightmare!......


Pope and Young are an elitist organization. P&Y have no LEGAL standing as to what is legal to hunt with. I hunt STRICTLY with a longbow or recurve. A compound bow is a far cry from my simple stick and string and offer advantage I could only dream of, though have decided to forego for my own personal challenge. A crossbow is a challenge in its own right and I want them to be legal here in Hawaii for the simple reason that they are now ILLEGAL, thanks to the inane decisions of the DLNR here in Hawaii.

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Wow!. Clearly a nerve was hit.  




> "work on something better and come back and try again. "



Yes, I'm thinking around Sunday. :wink:


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Wow!. Clearly a nerve was hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm thinking around Sunday. :wink:


I love your Avatar.... reminds me of Pinoccio..... :grin:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Wow!. Clearly a nerve was hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm thinking around Sunday. :wink:


Nerve hit? LOL Just more proof your intention is to keep stirring things up. Stir it up all day you can't change facts. Emotional based actions will lose out to it every time.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Wow!. Clearly a nerve was hit.


Not a NERVE!! Just a feeling of what is right. I cannot understand how supposedly educated people & one time good organizations can purposely spread misinformation & lies? I guess emotion & personal agenda's over take what is right. I am not talking amout opinions I am talking about black & white facts that people/organizations willfully misrepresent. What a shame...what happend to honesty & truth? I can only assume it was lost in all the emotion....There is name calling on both sides of the aisle..but at the end of the day the crossbow community has facts & truth to support our position. You & your anti crossbow organization have the right to oppose the crossbow inclusion. This is America...but do it above board. Supply provable facts debate using valid honest information. We owe it to all hunters to be honest and stop fighting among our ranks. You & your type of organization only aid the anti hunters of the world. I do not understand how you can post some things knowing you are misrepresenting the truth....I guess it takes all kinds.....


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Guess I need to post the quiz again. You remember, the one that sent everybody running and hiding from.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Guess I need to post the quiz again. You remember, the one that sent everybody running and hiding from.


No need for a quiz! Try something different post the truth! You have bounced around the country on various crossbow forums attempting to spread you misinformation. One would think it would get to you posting the info from the PBS knowing in your heart of hearts these are lies or at the very least misinformation. Your own VP of the WBH posted a "story" about crossbow accuracy that when he was called upon to duplicate he refused. Open you eyes. You & your organization support this type of yellow journalism. BUT IT IS NOT WORKING!!! Be men & make statements THEN back them up with facts. This is all anyone can ask! Honesty! You do what you feel you need to do...post quizes to avoid the real issues. Lobby the lawmakers with misinformation. I do not believe anyone would have an issue if your #1 thrust was the resource. If that were the case post all your pie charts & facts & figures BUT to attack the crossbow with lies & misinformation shows you & your organization in the real light! 41.2% of the Wisconsin bowhunters & 20% of the WBH who support the crossbow cannot be ALL wrong! Be honest & fight with facts not emotion & special interest! Remember.......41.2%...........TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

#1 thrust IS the resource and the season we created, protect and defend. Always watchful, always vigilant. Protecting the past, Defending the future. All based on facts and truths such as DNR surveys and CC votes of hunters opinions on the issue. More truth coming after this weekend.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> #1 thrust IS the resource* and the season we created*, protect and defend. Always watchful, always vigilant. Protecting the past, Defending the future. All based on facts and truths such as DNR surveys and CC votes of hunters opinions on the issue. More truth coming after this weekend.



Who created? The WBH? The WDNR? Is it for all the hunters of WI? OR just the chosen few? How about you VP's shooting prowess? The PBS cut & paste you use....You cannot feel good about these? Are you that nieve or just do not care about the truth. Divert the question to "after Sunday"! You ARE good at switching the question around when you are cornered! You are who you are.....we all see that now. That is why your posts are ignored...your crediability has been tarnished! All the attacks & locked posts in Michigan for what? Again no problem with the resource but your posts rarely deal with the herd and more about the weapon. So spend some more of the WBH resources this weekend to fight fellow WI hunters....Something to be proud of no doubt!!....41.2%........TICK-TICK-TICK


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Ooooooooooook,


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Ooooooooooook,


How would you explain your penchant for misinformation & in some cases out right lies on the crossbow issue to other organizations without the same special intrest or personal agenda as you? The Boy Scouts for example? How would "streching the truth" fit into the Boy Scout Motto or Oath for example? Could you stand in front of these young men & spew the same misinformation you do here & on forums throughout the nation? Hummmmmm.*41.2%....TICK-TICK-TICK*


----------



## Bloodbath

So what happens if the DNR takes another poll for crossbow inclusion in Wisconsin and that 41.2% you keep throwing out there becomes 36.5%? With the condition of our deer herd, many hunters in this state may not be as willing to let crossbows into the archery season.


----------



## marbowNC

At all the public meetings that the NCWRC had , crossbows and the taking away of one week of bow season and adding a extra week of muzzloading was #1 on the list of peoples concerns . There was more people at the meeting against the use of crossbows than there was for them and yet crossbows passed !! So for me this is greed and personal agenda of the ones who is for crossbows , when the majority here in NC is against them !!


----------



## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> So what happens if the DNR takes another poll for crossbow inclusion in Wisconsin and that 41.2% you keep throwing out there becomes 36.5%? With the condition of our deer herd, many hunters in this state may not be as willing to let crossbows into the archery season.



And with surrounding states going inclusion (Mich) do you really think LESS people will want crossbows in the future? And what if it's 51% with the anti's accept it? Most who buy crossbow are already hunters so if they harvest a deer with a crossbow or a vert bow, rifle or what ever means it is STILL counts as only one deer. Don't believe the hunters taking over the woods that the anti spew. The United Bowhunters of PA threathened 100,000 new hunters with inclusion. Actually the archery license & deer harvest went up slightly but the OVER-ALL harvest went down. What if 4,000 new vert bow hunters took up the sport this year? Would THAT be an issue?


----------



## Bloodbath

Tim50 said:


> And with surrounding states going inclusion (Mich) do you really think LESS people will want crossbows in the future? And what if it's 51% with the anti's accept it? Most who buy crossbow are already hunters so if they harvest a deer with a crossbow or a vert bow, rifle or what ever means it is STILL counts as only one deer. Don't believe the hunters taking over the woods that the anti spew. The United Bowhunters of PA threathened 100,000 new hunters with inclusion. Actually the archery license & deer harvest went up slightly but the OVER-ALL harvest went down. What if 4,000 new vert bow hunters took up the sport this year? Would THAT be an issue?


Come on. Answering my question with a question? 

No, 4,000 wouldn't be an issue to me as long as they hunt within the rules and regulations of our state. I don't care what the neighboring states around us are doing with their rules, they aren't Wisconsin and don't share the same situation we do here. We have rules restricting other types of weapons during hunting seasons and certain types and styles of traps during trapping season. Care to answer my previous question please?


----------



## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> Come on. Answering my question with a question?
> 
> No, 4,000 wouldn't be an issue to me *as long as they hunt within the rules and regulations of our state.* I don't care what the neighboring states around us are doing with their rules, they aren't Wisconsin and don't share the same situation we do here. We have rules restricting other types of weapons during hunting seasons and certain types and styles of traps during trapping season. Care to answer my previous question please?



And why would new Wisconsin bowhunters NOT hunt within the rules?? You've been drinking the kool-aid again!!:darkbeer: If the hunters of WI don't want crossbows then so be it! BUT let THEM make that decision not an organization that makes up less that 3% of the archery hunters! I proposed a 3 year test with a sundown clause. Crossbow inclusion to verify the possible impact and have the ability to pull the plug. This will never happen because it would provide the needed facts to support inclusion. If as the WBH would have you believe the WI hunters do not want the crossbow option this would be a non event. AND the anti crossbow WBH would finally have a fact to support their opposition to crossbows. This would provide cold hard facts and that is the anti crossbow WBH worst nightmare. If you cannot hunt with a crossbow in WI don't you think some hunters will make the trip to MI? You cannot use centerfire rifles in Ohio and Pennsylvania has a huge Ohio presence during our firearm season!


----------



## Tim50

marbowNC said:


> At all the public meetings that the NCWRC had , crossbows and the taking away of one week of bow season *and adding a extra week of muzzloading* was #1 on the list of peoples concerns . There was more people at the meeting against the use of crossbows than there was for them and yet crossbows passed !! So for me this is greed and personal agenda of the ones who is for crossbows , when the majority here in NC is against them !!


Are the muzzelloader supporters also greedy? I think you have some misplaced anger issues. I had heard just the opposite about who is the true majority in NC. I was told there was a VERY vocal minority against crossbows and the powers that be in NC saw this & did the right thing for ALL the hunters of NC not just a small special interest group. I guess it just depends who you are listening to!!:rock:


----------



## Bloodbath

But the hunters of Wisconsin have been polled and a majority of them have voiced their opposition to crossbow inclusion. The WBH didn't conduct this poll, the WDNR did. They included the crossbow question in the last hunters survey and that's where you get the 41.2%. If a majority of hunters wanted them, then that's the way it is, but that isn't the case.

We can't hunt everywhere in our state with a center fire rifle, but you don't see a mass exodus of hunters leaving the shotgun zones to hint with a rifle. Most hunt with with the tools the state allows in their area. Weapons restrictions are nothing new.

I still wanna know what would happen to the pro crossbow crowd if that 41.downent down because of the condition of the herd. Things aren't getting any better in this state when it comes to the herds health. Just wondering.


----------



## marbowNC

Tim50 said:


> Are the muzzelloader supporters also greedy? I think you have some misplaced anger issues. I had heard just the opposite about who is the true majority in NC. I was told there was a VERY vocal minority against crossbows and the powers that be in NC saw this & did the right thing for ALL the hunters of NC not just a small special interest group. I guess it just depends who you are listening to!!:rock:


I think the gun season should have been shortened a week instead of bow season !! I use a muzzleloader its the next best thing I like to use besides a bow but I and alot of others feel like the NCWRC is tring to do our season like SC , slowly but surely . Our bow season doesn't start getting good till the mid. to end of Oct. because its always so hot . Why fix something that isn't broke , and thats working ?! In NC we are just starting to see bigger bucks , I think all these new regulations is going to hurt our buck pop. , Im not concerned that crossbows and adding a exra week is going to wipe out the deer herd , Im concerned bout to many immiture bucks being shot . The only thing that might help is that we still have a 2 buck limit in the central and NW and Western season . Still yet there will be more small bucks shot !! I attended 1 meeting , and I know of others that attened a few others and seen for my self that more was against crossbows than was for them , I don't know how the eastern part of the state felt bout it , But the Central Western and NW part did not like that crossbows was going to be part of the bow season !


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> But the hunters of Wisconsin have been polled and a majority of them have voiced their opposition to crossbow inclusion. The WBH didn't conduct this poll, the WDNR did. They included the crossbow question in the last hunters survey and that's where you get the 41.2%. If a majority of hunters wanted them, then that's the way it is, but that isn't the case.
> 
> We can't hunt everywhere in our state with a center fire rifle, but you don't see a mass exodus of hunters leaving the shotgun zones to hint with a rifle. Most hunt with with the tools the state allows in their area. Weapons restrictions are nothing new.
> 
> I still wanna know what would happen to the pro crossbow crowd if that 41.downent down because of the condition of the herd. Things aren't getting any better in this state when it comes to the herds health. Just wondering.


people who already are a member of a club tend to want to exclude others. I really couldn't care what most bowhunters want. If their positions are based on lies greed and selfishness their opinions have no merit


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> I think the gun season should have been shortened a week instead of bow season !! I use a muzzleloader its the next best thing I like to use besides a bow but I and alot of others feel like the NCWRC is tring to do our season like SC , slowly but surely . Our bow season doesn't start getting good till the mid. to end of Oct. because its always so hot . Why fix something that isn't broke , and thats working ?! In NC we are just starting to see bigger bucks , I think all these new regulations is going to hurt our buck pop. , Im not concerned that crossbows and adding a exra week is going to wipe out the deer herd , Im concerned bout to many immiture bucks being shot . The only thing that might help is that we still have a 2 buck limit in the central and NW and Western season . Still yet there will be more small bucks shot !! I attended 1 meeting , and I know of others that attened a few others and seen for my self that more was against crossbows than was for them , I don't know how the eastern part of the state felt bout it , But the Central Western and NW part did not like that crossbows was going to be part of the bow season !


is your opposition to crossbows being included 

1) based on the nature of the crossbow

2) or your assumptions concerning who will use crossbows?


----------



## marbowNC

I can tell you one of the things that has got all this "stuff" passed . Insurance company's , there have been so many claims , deer eating crops and hitting deer with cars that the insurance company's is paying out so much that they had to put there .2 cents worth in it , this is why the NCWRC passed into effect that there is no daily bag limit . You might not belive me but this I know is true !!


----------



## marbowNC

Im not saying that just people who use crossbows will kill small bucks , that happens with all weapons legal to use . But there will be those that will take advanage of the 2 week muzzleloading and crossbow season to shoot as many deer as they can to fill the frezzer befor gun season !! I have no problem with shooting does and old bucks , I fill my frezzer with 5 or 6 a year . I don't blame someone that wants to do this I use to be that way , not anymore , I woke up and seen that it is alot more fun to take some does and let small bucks walk then get rewarded with a good one !! I blame the NCWRC , not the people who choose to use the weapons . I hope that the NCWRC will eventually put into place something like other states have got , that has big bucks !!


----------



## marbowNC

Im still against the use of crossbows during bow season . But its getting old hearing the sma ol' same ol' over and over , lol we will never agree on that . We will just have to agree to disagree on that subject !!


----------



## Tim50

marbowNC said:


> I think the gun season should have been shortened a week instead of bow season !! I use a muzzleloader its the next best thing I like to use besides a bow


You don't use/like a rifle so eliminate or shorten THAT season. Luckly your NCWRC is trying to do what is right for ALL hunters not just small special interest groups....I'm sure there are a lot of gun hunters that would like an early crack at the big bucks you speak of! And I believe the GUN hunters may be the TRUE majority in NC.....


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> Im still against the use of crossbows during bow season . But its getting old hearing the sma ol' same ol' over and over , lol we will never agree on that . We will just have to agree to disagree on that subject !!


easy question

1) due to the nature of the weapon

2) or the nature of those you assume will use them


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

LOL at easy questions. I offered 7 very easy omnes that had people hinding and wetting themselves all over the place. Too funny. :set1_rolf2:


I never saw a simple set of easy questions cause people to fall all over themselves to get outta Dodge to avoid them. 




> "I really couldn't care what most bowhunters want. "



That about sums it up. Thank goodness thats not how we roll in the dairy state. :car:


State's rights Rock! :band:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> LOL at easy questions. I offered 7 very easy omnes that had people hinding and wetting themselves all over the place. Too funny. :set1_rolf2:
> 
> 
> I never saw a simple set of easy questions cause people to fall all over themselves to get outta Dodge to avoid them.


Who's dodging & hideing now....Did not expect you to answer...the truth would hurt! Just divert......the local council should be VERY proud of you.....


----------



## sits in trees

and what percentage of hunters in this country really care about what pope and young think a hunting bow should be? i know thats the last thing i'm thinking about when i'm sitting in my treestand on a cool crisp oct morn...


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

sits in trees said:


> and what percentage of hunters in this country really care about what pope and young think a hunting bow should be? i know thats the last thing i'm thinking about when i'm sitting in my treestand on a cool crisp oct morn...


Since it's a bowhunting group I would say the super majority. Why would I say that. Just read this forum or any other where deer hunters gather and you will find threads such as "What does this buck score?" Everybody talks in terms of inches of antler.

" I shot a 140 inch buck."

" I saw a 160 incher"

I won't shoot anything less than a 130 incher" Etc, etc, etc. There is no denying this. P&Y and defined many things, including how good you should feel about the buck you shot (that however is a shame) They are THE authority on the matter. Then came along B&C and then the Buckmasters score and if I am not mistaken, there is even a crossbow records book out there that copied P&Y :mg: 

Why, Because P&Y established and defined a great deal in regards to bowhunting but since they disagree with you on a certain issue, they can safely be trashed as having no value. Even you can't convince yourself of that despite your best attempts so you have not come close to convincing others.

The founding fathers disagree with you and this makes you unhappy so they must be destroyed. :rant:

I'll be at their headquarters with NABC in a few weeks, I will let them know your displeasure. I'm sure they will care. :lol:


----------



## Tim50

Tim50 said:


> How would you explain your penchant for misinformation & in some cases out right lies on the crossbow issue to other organizations without the same special intrest or personal agenda as you? The Boy Scouts for example? How would "streching the truth" fit into the Boy Scout Motto or Oath for example? Could you stand in front of these young men & spew the same misinformation you do here & on forums throughout the nation? Hummmmmm.*41.2%....TICK-TICK-TICK*



Rancid...I see you chose NOT to respond.....Strike a NERVE? All I have asked is the anti crossbow supporters be honest & truthful in this debate. It appears neither is possible & when confronted an outspoken anti crossbow/hunter grows strangely silent. This answer has to come from you...not a pie chart or someother out of state anti crossbow organization. Too close to home?? So spend MORE of your so called hunting organizations funds on travel & such to huddle with other anti crossbow organizations to fight fellow WI hunters...I guess its money well spent!  At least you get to travel & share misinformation.... How did it work in MI-PA-NJ-NC-TX-NY?? Enjoy the trip. Huddle all you like it's coming.....41.2%....TICK-TICK-TICK

PS: Your silence on this matter is all we need to know:thumbs_up


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

You seem to forget your place. I deal in facts. You just don't like them so you label them otherwise. Nice try. I have always answered every question asked. I then asked a few simple ones myself and folks went missing. Since I asked first, when my questions are answered honestly, I will return in kind. Why the fear? Your silence speaks volumes. Don't fear the questions. embrace the facts and you will gain enlightenment.


OR.............. Just keep avoiding and changing the subject. That never gets old. 


When you honestly answer all my questions, then you get to ask some of your own.


----------



## Tim50

Nice try!!!  I knew you could not would not step up! You cannot be honest even when speaking about kids! You are who you are!!! *41.2%...TICK-TICK-TICK*


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Im not sure your what your so afraid of. Try dealing with reality for once. WI is unique and you would do well to open your mind a bit. The questions are there for you to answer. Avoiding them won't help you. Then we can talk about your questions. Not until. Here is your chance to show me. Lets see if your up to it. :teeth:


----------



## marbowNC

Tim50 said:


> You don't use/like a rifle so eliminate or shorten THAT season. Luckly your NCWRC is trying to do what is right for ALL hunters not just small special interest groups....I'm sure there are a lot of gun hunters that would like an early crack at the big bucks you speak of! And I believe the GUN hunters may be the TRUE majority in NC.....


I use a rifle also , the NCWRC didn't shorten the rifle season , the rifle season comes in like it always has . I don't see why they couldn't have shortened the rifle season a week instead of bow season . Rifle comes in , in Nov. and ends on Jan. 1st ! The seasons here is all screwed up . Most of the gun hunters is your bow hunter here in NC , there is more that use bow and rifle than there is just rifle !!


----------



## Jim C

Tim50 said:


> Nice try!!!  I knew you could not would not step up! You cannot be honest even when speaking about kids! You are who you are!!! *41.2%...TICK-TICK-TICK*


They cannot come out and say they want to exclude fellow hunters from bow season out of greed so they have to pretend its all about the herd or the "unfairness" of xbows.


If they claim they are anti bow-they lose

if they claim they are anti hunter they lose.

so that is why they engage in this little evasive dance


----------



## marbowNC

Jim C said:


> They cannot come out and say they want to exclude fellow hunters from bow season out of greed so they have to pretend its all about the herd or the "unfairness" of xbows.
> 
> 
> If they claim they are anti bow-they lose
> 
> if they claim they are anti hunter they lose.
> 
> so that is why they engage in this little evasive dance


No BODY is excluded from bow season , Its simple you buy a bow , pratice and hunt with it !! How is this Excluding fellow hunters ?! Whats the deal with anti-hunter non-sense ?! Your starting to sound a lot like Obama and his twisted words !!


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> No BODY is excluded from bow season , Its simple you buy a bow , pratice and hunt with it !! How is this Excluding fellow hunters ?! Whats the deal with anti-hunter non-sense ?! Your starting to sound a lot like Obama and his twisted words !!


if compounds were banned would you say the same thing

yes you want to keep people out of the bow season

end of story


----------



## Bloodbath

Jim C said:


> if compounds were banned would you say the same thing
> 
> yes you want to keep people out of the bow season
> 
> end of story


No, we want to keep crossbows out of the bow season, not people. There's a big difference there. And yes if they banned compounds, i wouldn't cry to much. I enjoy the challenges of hunting with a recurve.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

The whole situation about WI is being discussed with bowhuters from around the country. Once folks see the facts and truth, they begin to understand. Its about the resourse and the opinions of that states hunters. Done deal.


http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/l...readid=211740&messages=123&CATEGORY=9#2777429


----------



## rattus58

Bloodbath said:


> No, we want to keep crossbows out of the bow season, not people. There's a big difference there. And yes if they banned compounds, i wouldn't cry to much. I enjoy the challenges of hunting with a recurve.


Talk IS cheap isn't it. You want to keep a bow out of bow season but if they banned compounds you wouldn't cry to much. This says a lot about you doesn't it.

What is archery has to do with the equipment. A crossbow is a bow, is archery, and kills in identical fashion to your precious recurve. I'd like to know how if I'm hunting with my longbow one day and the next hunt with a crossbow and if the hunt were conducted identically how hunting with crossbow changes from my hunt with a longbow? Answer, it doesn't and if I were successful on both hunts, the results are the same and the impact on the game and OTHER hunters is the same, as if that should matter, and IT DOESN'T.

Hunting is a personal endeavor and what you or I hunt with are irrelevant to others. If one wants to hunt with a longbow, recurve, compound or crossbow, the results of the hunt are the same. One doesn't (according to compound shooters anyway) have advantage over the other.

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> The whole situation about WI is being discussed with bowhuters from around the country. Once folks see the facts and truth, they begin to understand. Its about the resourse and the opinions of that states hunters. Done deal.
> 
> 
> http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/l...readid=211740&messages=123&CATEGORY=9#2777429


You are absolutely CORRECT... HERE IS THE THREAD STARTER... OR ORIGINAL POSTER...

_"This seaon in many Wisconsin hunting zones we will not be able to harvest doe - even with a bow. 
Believe it or not this was backed by the Wisconsin Bowhunters Organization. 

The amount of doe killed by archers is insignificant and stastistically amounts to nothing. 

The reason that the herd is in trouble is not becuase of archers, or even gun hunters - it is becuase of POOR MANAGEMENT. 

The DNR in Wisconsin was all for the reintroduction and protection of wolves, the DNR does not allow enough Black Bear to be harvested, the DNR has had countless "t zone" hunts, youth hunts, special hunts, etc. - where throughout the archery season people are allowed special seasons to kill doe with rifles. The DNR has allowed to many doe tags among rifle hunters for far too many years. 

And now - who pays the price - bow hunters and our lovely state bowhunting organzation supports it. 

I have a good mind to not even buy a bow license!" _

Nothing to do with Crossbows... all to do with management. Amen.

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## dale9805

crossbows are not allowed to be used here during bow season, next year they are making it legal to use a crossbow during rifle season.
i'm very glad that crossbows are not allowed to be used during archery season for a very simple reason. 
anyone who can shoot a rifle can shoot a crossbow, it's considerably easier then using a compound or recurve, if they were made legal the public land i hunt would be filled with rifle hunters using crossbows.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Correct ratus, that because in WI, this is a herd issue. Some are now starting to understand. The education I supplied has begun to sink into you guys. Read the whole thread to understand more. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.


----------



## Tim50

dale9805 said:


> crossbows are not allowed to be used here during bow season, next year they are making it legal to use a crossbow during rifle season.
> i'm very glad that crossbows are not allowed to be used during archery season for a very simple reason.
> anyone who can shoot a rifle can shoot a crossbow, it's considerably easier then using a compound or recurve, *if they were made legal the public land i hunt would be filled with rifle hunters using crossbows.*


It has not happened in ANY state that has allowed any sort of crossbow inclusion. And that is a FACT. But why would we expect you to look at available facts when you have the WBH-PBS-NABC-P&Y kool-aid to drink.:darkbeer: Same old lie different state!


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Since it's a bowhunting group I would say the super majority. Why would I say that. Just read this forum or any other where deer hunters gather and you will find threads such as "What does this buck score?" Everybody talks in terms of inches of antler.
> 
> " I shot a 140 inch buck."
> 
> " I saw a 160 incher"
> 
> I won't shoot anything less than a 130 incher" Etc, etc, etc. There is no denying this. P&Y and defined many things, including how good you should feel about the buck you shot (that however is a shame) They are THE authority on the matter. Then came along B&C and then the Buckmasters score and if I am not mistaken, there is even a crossbow records book out there that copied P&Y :mg:
> 
> Why, Because P&Y established and defined a great deal in regards to bowhunting but since they disagree with you on a certain issue, they can safely be trashed as having no value. Even you can't convince yourself of that despite your best attempts so you have not come close to convincing others.
> 
> The founding fathers disagree with you and this makes you unhappy so they must be destroyed. :rant:
> 
> I'll be at their headquarters with NABC in a few weeks, I will let them know your displeasure. I'm sure they will care. :lol:


Uh........... maybe not everyone. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1062313&highlight=pope


Some more for you............

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=644657&highlight=pope


There are tons of Poop & Dung posts on here. It's come up a lot over the years. The majority do not participate or care what P&Y thinks. Their scoring system and numbers are only used as a standard so a guy in one state can relate to a deer shot in another. There are lots of words or terms people use to make some sort of standardized reference point. That doesn't mean they drink the kool aid or support who originated the phrase. 

As usual selective reasoning and skewed interpretation of things to suit your agenda.

BTW I see they pulled your anit-post over on the PBS forum ! Even over there they get tired of it.


----------



## Jim C

Bloodbath said:


> No, we want to keep crossbows out of the bow season, not people. There's a big difference there. And yes if they banned compounds, i wouldn't cry to much. I enjoy the challenges of hunting with a recurve.


why? is your challenge affected by what someone else uses

and if xbows become the dominant bow what would you think if they banned recurves as being more apt to wound deer


----------



## Jim C

dale9805 said:


> crossbows are not allowed to be used here during bow season, next year they are making it legal to use a crossbow during rifle season.
> i'm very glad that crossbows are not allowed to be used during archery season for a very simple reason.
> anyone who can shoot a rifle can shoot a crossbow, it's considerably easier then using a compound or recurve, if they were made legal the public land i hunt would be filled with rifle hunters using crossbows.


LOL that is funny. you obviously don't know much about crossbows. Let me educate you, a rifle is going to kill within 100 yards of your point of aim. Meaning if you think the deer is at 100 yards and its at 200 you are still going to hit him in the kill zone. A crossbow-LOL 10 yards and you might miss. 20 yards for sure


----------



## marbowNC

Jim C said:


> LOL that is funny. you obviously don't know much about crossbows. Let me educate you, a rifle is going to kill within 100 yards of your point of aim. Meaning if you think the deer is at 100 yards and its at 200 you are still going to hit him in the kill zone. A crossbow-LOL 10 yards and you might miss. 20 yards for sure


LOL , If you have a 10 yrd pin and hold the 20 on him you will NOT miss !! The deer will drop enough to comepsate for that I use a 10 yrd pin with my bow for 20yrd shots out of a tree and hit them every time !! The sound of the bow or crossbow will cause them to drop unless you hunt tame deer !! Do you hunt deer at all ?


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> LOL , If you have a 10 yrd pin and hold the 20 on him you will NOT miss !! The deer will drop enough to comepsate for that I use a 10 yrd pin with my bow for 20yrd shots out of a tree and hit them every time !! The sound of the bow or crossbow will cause them to drop unless you hunt tame deer !! Do you hunt deer at all ?


 remind me how many deer you have taken with a crossbow and how many NAA, NFAA or IBO titles you have with one.

Thanks


----------



## rattus58

dale9805 said:


> crossbows are not allowed to be used here during bow season, next year they are making it legal to use a crossbow during rifle season.
> i'm very glad that crossbows are not allowed to be used during archery season for a very simple reason.
> anyone who can shoot a rifle can shoot a crossbow, it's considerably easier then using a compound or recurve, if they were made legal the public land i hunt would be filled with rifle hunters using crossbows.


First off all... That is YOUR OPINION and of where you came up with that is unclear, since that has NOT been the experience in ANY of the states that have included crossbows in the Archery seasons so far. As far as you further comment that that a crossbow is considerably easier than a compound or recurve, I'm curious where you got that tidbit from, since shooting accurately takes time on the range NO MATTER what you shoot. 

Anything you hunt with requires that you practice. Picking up a bow after last season and flinging a few arrows is probably pretty typical of a lot of hunters. I know this to be true of muzzleloader and general firearm hunters and I'm aware of bowhunters being equally complacement.... not that you are of course....

Aloha...


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

BigBirdVA said:


> BTW I see they pulled your anit-post over on the PBS forum ! Even over there they get tired of it.



Boy, you are just a whole heap of wrongness is every asspect.  My guess is you won't admit you are wrong on this or all the other issues. 

I even mentioned you there today. LOL

I thought you were busy learning how to head up the VA crossbow org? Guide girl has all sorts of good info for you. You should go for it. Being part of a state org is a lot of work. Trust me, I know. I will be spending my weekend working for the members.


http://probowsociety.org/cgi-pbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000030;p=1#000000


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Boy, you are just a whole heap of wrongness is every asspect.  My guess is you won't admit you are wrong on this or all the other issues.
> 
> I even mentioned you there today. LOL
> 
> I thought you were busy learning how to head up the VA crossbow org? Guide girl has all sorts of good info for you. You should go for it. Being part of a state org is a lot of work. Trust me, I know. I will be spending my weekend working for the members.
> 
> 
> http://probowsociety.org/cgi-pbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000030;p=1#000000


BB is correct

the anti xbow crowd is losing

those who understand that a compound and a crossbow have no differences significant enough to justify treating them differently are winning.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> http://probowsociety.org/cgi-pbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000030;p=1#000000



Different forum different name! Always watchful, vigilant always hiding something???? *41.2%.........TICK-TICK-TICK*


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

There is only one PBS forum that I know of. Thats what he stated and again I proved him wrong.


Glad your back Tim, Back on July 29, I asked some simple questions that you keep avoiding. Why fear and constant subject changing and avoidance? Your silence is very telling. 


By the by, there is a whole lot more education to be had at this link. You would do well to take it in.


http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=211740&messages=124&CATEGORY=9


----------



## Tim50

While your ego is running rampant here debate is info back & forth...you on the other hand will not debate and everything has to be on your terms. Your not in Wisconsin anymore Dorothy!! While you & and the WBH feel you have the right to tell Wisconsin hunters what they can & cannot use in THEIR hunting season it does not work here. This is not YOUR sandbox You do not dictate the terms of discussion! You can hide behind your little game to avoid debate. All you want to do is spread your misinformation & lies & when you are called on it you tap dance back into your shell! The United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania met with the PBS at the P&Y headquarters a few years back & guess what? Pennsylvania now has full inclusion....Just remember 41.2% of the WI bowhunters DON"T want you or your organization telling them what they can use in archery season! You can delay it BUT you will not stop inclusion....IT IS COMING!!! *41.2%.....TICK-TICK-TICK*


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Boy, you are just a whole heap of wrongness is every asspect.  My guess is you won't admit you are wrong on this or all the other issues.
> 
> I even mentioned you there today. LOL
> 
> I thought you were busy learning how to head up the VA crossbow org? Guide girl has all sorts of good info for you. You should go for it. Being part of a state org is a lot of work. Trust me, I know. I will be spending my weekend working for the members.
> 
> 
> http://probowsociety.org/cgi-pbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000030;p=1#000000


Uh............. isn't this thread about P&Y? Rules state no debating the merits of xbows. That includes every one even if they're OCD. Can't you follow rules? You're always claiming others should. Maybe you should try it an set an example. 

Glad I don't have to hide under another name to visit web sites! 


PBS .... I was referring to the Bowsite. That's their nick some use on other forums. The real PBS is another 2% wanna be org that thinks it speaks for everyone.


----------



## Jim C

Tim50 said:


> Different forum different name! Always watchful, vigilant always hiding something???? *41.2%.........TICK-TICK-TICK*


I'd love to see a psychological profile on your average PBS member. I love how they call other hunters "slobs"

if the average gun hunter saw the names the PBS calls them bow seasons would be in trouble


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I've never seen 7 simple questions instill such fear and panic. :rant:


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I've never seen 7 simple questions instill such fear and panic. :rant:


I have commonly seen hyperbolic nonsense from the antis combined with silly evasions and stupid questions that have nothing to do with reality and serve only as a facade for their true motivation which is to keep as many people out of the public woods as possible without cutting their own throats in the short run.

in 2004 I was on a political forum where some poster constantly asked why people were going to vote for Bush instead of Kerry. No matter what the answers, the questioner would constantly claim no one answered his question and then screamed that the pro Bush posters were afraid of his question. 

It is the same stuff here


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I've never seen 7 simple questions instill such fear and panic. :rant:


What questions? You mean the loaded ones with answers you choose? No one answered it because of the obvious. Please try harder on your agenda. And some more bad news....... it's not all about you.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Yes, exactly what I just mentioned. Curious ain't it? Now we just need the PA guy to chime in.


----------



## Tim50

Thanks for waiting for me! You refuse the give & take of a forum or a debate....If you had answers or facts I am sure you would shout it from the highest mountain. You have an opinion all you lack is the ability to prove it! Without facts it is nothing more than "your opinion". Being tossed from many sites should tell you something. Your act grows thin "quickly"!! Your holier than thou act also gets old. And at the end of the day people see your motives and the way you go about achiving your goals. This is a forum for discusion & banter you want to turn it into your own soap box. If you refuse to abide by the implied rules of a forum " discusion & debate" then do not participate. Your attempts to run every crossbow post into the ground is also getting old. BUT it is an open froum & you are free to voice your "opinion"! You do not set or make the rules...Every discussion does not have to turn into a forum for YOUR personal agenda...YET you do your best to make it that way. Maybe someday you will learn how this process works....People respect honesty.....you will also learn this....


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Right on que........................................ Wrong on content. 

Love the three amigos act though.


:wav:


----------



## Tim50

Badgerarrow wrote: ( a PBS Associate Member)



> WI is broken into Deer Management Units. Most Northern units is Buck only. I have property up north where I do most of my bow hunting and it is Buck only.But where I live, in South Central WI,*you can get as many Doe tags as you want.* So it looks like I will have to stay closer to home this year.


So if the WBH fight against the crossbow is just due to the "herd" situation why not allow crossbows *ONLY* in those area's that NEED herd reduction? This would be a perfect opportunity for the WDNR to gather some needed information on true crossbow inclusion while putting no added stress on the existing herd. This could be a win/win/win situation:

*Win for the anti-crossbow elite: *
1: Allow the use of crossbows on a limited basis and prove that the hunters of WI do not WANT crossbow inclusion when no one takes advantage of the opportunity.
2: Anti crossbow organizations could better use their limited funds on "hunting" related programs. (ex: youth programs...) rather that wasting funds fighting fellow WI hunters.
3: Prove once & for all they have the hunting communities best interest at heart.

*Win for the Crossbow Community:*

1: It would allow those 41.2% of bowhunters who support crossbows to "try" them out in a controled limited enviorment.
2: It would provide to the WDNR needed FACTS concerning crossbow usage & its possible effect.
3: The crossbow community deals in facts & would welcome the chance to be proven right or wrong. We do not fear facts!

*Win for the State of Wisconsin:*

1: Reduces the herd in needed area's
2: *Possible* increase in income from added license sales.
3: Less bickering amoung the hunting community

This could also be a huge win for the hunters in general! All organizations & hunters could unite to address TRUE hunting issues with a united front. Strength in numbers. No more fighting just one united BOWHUNTING COMMUNITY!

So IF your opposition to crossbow inclusion is *truly* "resource related only":lol3: this could be a great opportunity for all involved. I see no losers in this senario unless the anti crossbow types have some other hidden agenda other than the herd! Something the WBH has worked in the backroom with out of state organizations (PBS-NABC-P&Y to name a few) who know nothing of the WI plight! BUT that can't be true because they assured us that this is resource driven. They would not LIE to us or possibily attempt to feed us misinformation ....would they??


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Interesting. I'm sure this will be discussed this weekend. WI has statewide bowhunting laws and not laws based on the DMU system so enforcement and regulation would be a challenge but since the majority are opposed to full inclusion, this most likely would not get the needed votes to happen. While the DNR has stated that this is a public opinion matter from the standpoint of a statewide law, the law enforcement component of the DNR would certainly weigh in because of the "Allowed" , not allowed" areas and the boundaries and the challenges this would cause. The state does however have shotgun only zones but those were and are the purview of the residents of the county to decide and not the DNR or NRB. 

The pivotal point in this is the fact that WI hunters have little to no faith in the DNR's ability to estimate the size of the deer herd so while the DNR is willing to sell unlimited antlerless tags because they view certain areas as overpopulated, the hunters do not share that view and consider the herd to small already. Knowing badger arrow and the fact that he lives in the CWD zone, he is talking about the unlimited tags being handed out as part of a CWD management policy that is causing hunters to revolt. A few studies have been done about this situation and would be worthwhile reading since you clearly have a thirst for knowledge about WI. Here are the links. Consider it part of an extension of the distance learning course I had offered earlier.


The first one is called, Predicting Deer Hunter Harvest Behavior in Wisconsin’s Chronic Wasting Disease Eradication Zone by ROBERT H. HOLSMAN AND JORDAN PETCHENIK



http://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/bholsman/Predicting harvest behavior.pdf


The second is called, Deer managers and deer hunters in Wisconsin: Irreconcilable differences? A report on a 2008 survey of DNR credibility by ROBERT H. HOLSMAN


http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/Wildlife/faculty/Holsman/DNR Credibility Report_Holsman 2009.pdf


Any sort of discussion about your suggestion would revisit these studies so you would do well to read them and understand. Because badger arrows comments were in regards to the CWDMZ, this discussion would certainly have to ask the question of:


*"what would adding expanded use of crossbows do to address CWD that longbows, recurves, compound bows, handguns, shotguns, Muzzleloaders and rifles haven’t already done?" *


because the roadblocks related to solving the CWD problem do not exist because of a lack of weapons choices available to deer hunters and there are already many and lengthy gun deer seasons in the CWDMZ and hunters are rejecting the management strategy on a wholesale level, I suggest this would not receive majority support but it is worth asking. 


P.S. Now your getting into the spirit of the WI situation on a cerebral level. Thanks for that.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Interesting. I'm sure this will be discussed this weekend. WI has statewide bowhunting laws and not laws based on the DMU system so enforcement and regulation would be a challenge but since the majority are opposed to full inclusion, this most likely would not get the needed votes to happen. While the DNR has stated that this is a public opinion matter from the standpoint of a statewide law, the law enforcement component of the DNR would certainly weigh in because of the "Allowed" , not allowed" areas and the boundaries and the challenges this would cause. The state does however have shotgun only zones but those were and are the purview of the residents of the county to decide and not the DNR or NRB.
> 
> The pivotal point in this is the fact that WI hunters have little to no faith in the DNR's ability to estimate the size of the deer herd so while the DNR is willing to sell unlimited antlerless tags because they view certain areas as overpopulated, the hunters do not share that view and consider the herd to small already. Knowing badger arrow and the fact that he lives in the CWD zone, he is talking about the unlimited tags being handed out as part of a CWD management policy that is causing hunters to revolt. A few studies have been done about this situation and would be worthwhile reading since you clearly have a thirst for knowledge about WI. Here are the links. Consider it part of an extension of the distance learning course I had offered earlier.
> 
> 
> The first one is called, Predicting Deer Hunter Harvest Behavior in Wisconsin’s Chronic Wasting Disease Eradication Zone by ROBERT H. HOLSMAN AND JORDAN PETCHENIK
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/bholsman/Predicting harvest behavior.pdf
> 
> 
> The second is called, Deer managers and deer hunters in Wisconsin: Irreconcilable differences? A report on a 2008 survey of DNR credibility by ROBERT H. HOLSMAN
> 
> 
> http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/Wildlife/faculty/Holsman/DNR Credibility Report_Holsman 2009.pdf
> 
> 
> Any sort of discussion about your suggestion would revisit these studies so you would do well to read them and understand. Because badger arrows comments were in regards to the CWDMZ, this discussion would certainly have to ask the question of:
> 
> 
> *"what would adding expanded use of crossbows do to address CWD that longbows, recurves, compound bows, handguns, shotguns, Muzzleloaders and rifles haven’t already done?" *
> 
> 
> because the roadblocks related to solving the CWD problem do not exist because of a lack of weapons choices available to deer hunters and there are already many and lengthy gun deer seasons in the CWDMZ and hunters are rejecting the management strategy on a wholesale level, I suggest this would not receive majority support but it is worth asking.
> 
> 
> P.S. Now your getting into the spirit of the WI situation on a cerebral level. Thanks for that.


Allowing crossbows in would increase hunter numbers possibly, keep hunter numbers up for sure as older hunters have problems drawing bows, expand the brotherhood of archers. These are ALL good things for hunting.

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> Allowing crossbows in would increase hunter numbers possibly, keep hunter numbers up for sure as older hunters have problems drawing bows, expand the brotherhood of archers. These are ALL good things for hunting.



Hunter numbers are at near record levels and growing and older hunters are already allowed to use a crossbow in WI. So are the handicapped. If you read the documents I provided, you would see the hunters do not share the opinions of the DNR that there are too many deer in the CWDMZ. That is why we have been to the state capital for hearings where hunters came by the busload to protest the declining herd the DNR's desire to make it smaller yet. This has prompted land closures and some boycotts. Yes, the DNR is offering unlimited tags in the CWDMZ but that area of the state is showing high hunter revolt due to the many and longer gun seasons in that area. It's never been for a lack of weapons since guns have always been the preferred and most effective means to reduce the herd. There is unlimited opportunity in the CWDMZ but hunters are telling the DNR they can't find a doe to harvest to earn their buck sticker and they cant harvest a buck without first killing a doe. This has escalated the revolt.


You will want to know that the idea of crossbow expansion in the CWDMZ as a means of increasing harvest has been brought up every year since CWD was discovered back in 2002. Each time, the idea has been rejected. Over the years the DNR has created a 5 year CWD plan, a ten year CWD plan and are now going out to hearings on the 15 year CWD plan. None of these plans include adding crossbows even though this idea has been discussed over all those years. The DNR and the state's Natural Recourses Board has never supported such a plan. Neither have the hunters.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> You will want to know that the idea of crossbow expansion in the CWDMZ as a means of increasing harvest has been brought up every year since CWD was discovered back in 2002. Each time, the idea has been rejected. Over the years the DNR has created a 5 year CWD plan, a ten year CWD plan and are now going out to hearings on the 15 year CWD plan. None of these plans include adding crossbows even though this idea has been discussed over all those years. The DNR and the state's Natural Recourses Board has never supported such a plan. Neither have the hunters.


And what was the WBH's position? What did their lobbyist whisper in the legislators ears? If ,as you say, your opposition is all about the resource why hasn't the WBH supported the crossbow as a tool in over populated area's? For ONCE be honest!!! It is NOT all about the resource!!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I have been nothing but honest since day one and will continue to do so. This is about the resource but you will never admit that because a real and logical ***** in the armor of the crossbows lobby has been exposed . The archery season and allowable weapons in WI are managed at the statewide level and not based on pockets of high deer populations. Logic suggests that if crossbows were the answer to high deer populations (and WI can't claim that we have a high deer population) that they must have a far larger effect than you are letting on (or is that just bunk that works when its to your advantage but can be changed when its not to your advantage?)and that if they could truly be the answer to high deer numbers, as soon as population goals were reached, crossbows would once again have to be removed as an option since you can't turn off a tool once unleashed so you would have to remove tags or shorten the season (things already being advanced in WI) See the end of this post for more on that. It explains the WI situation nicely


WBH did not have a lobbyist back during the early CWD discussion. That is a relatively new addition I pushed for. When I sat on the DNR's CWD advisory board representing WBH back in 2007/08, the idea of crossbows in the CWDMZ was discussed. The roadblocks related to solving the CWD problem do not exist because of a lack of weapons choices available to deer hunters. The solution to CWD (If such a thing exists) will not be found at the end of a barrel or the tip of an arrow or bolt. It will come from a lab and men in white coats. I am unable to find a single state that has CWD that has suggested crossbows as the solution or even a part of the solution or that allowed crossbow for the sake of dealing with CWD. 

Also, since the archery season and allowable weapons are managed at the statewide level, allowing crossbows in only the CWDMZ has not been supported. as I have already posted here, full inclusion has been rejected at every turn (and continue to be rejected.) *At this spring's Conservation Congress, a citizen resolution was offered in one of the CWD Counties to allow the use of crossbows for everybody in the CWDMZ. That resolution was rejected.*

full inclusion has been rejected every time it's been tried so the public and WBH agree (as does the DNR and NRB) that full inclusion is not even a thought in regards to solving the issues surrounding CWD and as I posted:

"what would adding expanded use of crossbows do to address CWD that longbows, recurves, compound bows, handguns, shotguns, Muzzleloaders and rifles and several lengthy firearms seasons haven’t already done?" 

WBH opposed (and still opposes ) the concept of crossbows in the CWDMZ because that area is struggling just like the rest of the state and hunters are having a hard time finding an antlerless deer to qualify for a buck tag. (Earn-A-Buck) and yet the DNR claims there are too many deer. (look at the two studies I supplied). During my time on the CWD advisory board, I made a trip to meet with the DNR Secretary and then a few legislators to explain that crossbows were in no way a solution to CWD. While I can't claim that those meetings were effective, no DNR or NRB Chronic Wasting Disease management plan has ever included the addition of crossbows as even a component of a plan to help with herd reduction or CWD .

As far as shortening the existing archery season, this link will take to an article printed in our state's biggest outdoor sporting newspaper. You will find it interesting. It is written by a former DNR employee that wants to shorten the archery deer season because we are too effective (without any talk of adding crossbows) This explains why your talk of adding crossbows as an answer to lowering deer populations in WI continues to be rejected. Why? Because it's about the deer herd and the current seasons. We are not looking for more hunters to kill more deer. This article will help you.

http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/212007154/?action=view&current=may2010WON2.jpg


And this.


http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/212007154/?action=view&current=June2010WON3.jpg


There is more to this story that I can provide tomorrow.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Hunter numbers are at near record levels and growing and older hunters are already allowed to use a crossbow in WI. So are the handicapped. If you read the documents I provided, you would see the hunters do not share the opinions of the DNR that there are too many deer in the CWDMZ. That is why we have been to the state capital for hearings where hunters came by the busload to protest the declining herd the DNR's desire to make it smaller yet. This has prompted land closures and some boycotts. Yes, the DNR is offering unlimited tags in the CWDMZ but that area of the state is showing high hunter revolt due to the many and longer gun seasons in that area. It's never been for a lack of weapons since guns have always been the preferred and most effective means to reduce the herd. There is unlimited opportunity in the CWDMZ but hunters are telling the DNR they can't find a doe to harvest to earn their buck sticker and they cant harvest a buck without first killing a doe. This has escalated the revolt.
> 
> 
> You will want to know that the idea of crossbow expansion in the CWDMZ as a means of increasing harvest has been brought up every year since CWD was discovered back in 2002. Each time, the idea has been rejected. Over the years the DNR has created a 5 year CWD plan, a ten year CWD plan and are now going out to hearings on the 15 year CWD plan. None of these plans include adding crossbows even though this idea has been discussed over all those years. The DNR and the state's Natural Recourses Board has never supported such a plan. Neither have the hunters.


What about expanding the brotherhood of archers? If a recurve shooter wanted to hunt with a crossbow, he couldn't. Since there is no logical reason for denying crossbows, the exclusion is strictly either elitist or emotion based upon misinformation or being indoctrinated beyond the point of reasonableness. I don't believe in letting the issue lie, regardless of the wishes of bowhunters who have the opportunity to shoot with equipment equal or better than a crossbow when compared to a recurve or longbow. I don't like whining about fairness, so I won't, but I don't like exclusionary policy(ies) either, and will continue to argue for inclusion of crossbows because there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to not have them in an archery season, and here in Hawaii, there is no reason why I couldn't use one in a muzzleloader or general firearms season, like I can't right now.

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> What about expanding the brotherhood of archers?


What about it? Nobody in WI is excluded from bowhunting. Even the handicapped and elderly can participate.



rattus58 said:


> If a recurve shooter wanted to hunt with a crossbow, he couldn't.


Correct. There are other weapons he could not use. Our statutes and code define this.



rattus58 said:


> Since there is no logical reason for denying crossbows, the exclusion is strictly either elitist or emotion based upon misinformation or being indoctrinated beyond the point of reasonableness.


I don't think that is a real word but several and many reason that are very logical have been laid out before you. You just refuse to admit it and that it is up to WI residents to decide and that your opinion counts for nothing here. (and apparently in Hawaii) 




rattus58 said:


> I don't believe in letting the issue lie,


Clearly but your spinning your wheels and getting all animated over WI when you don't matter in the grand scheme.



rattus58 said:


> I don't like whining about fairness, so I won't,


LOL, that is all you have ever done. As well as others here. 



rattus58 said:


> but I don't like exclusionary policy(ies) either, and will continue to argue for inclusion of crossbows


You don't have to like it. Argue all you want. We will handle WI laws here in WI.




rattus58 said:


> because there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to not have them in an archery season,


You are of course wrong. Take the time to go back a read the last few pages here.



rattus58 said:


> and here in Hawaii, there is no reason why I couldn't use one in a muzzleloader or general firearms season, like I can't right now.


I couldn't care less. That is up to the people of Hawaii. I have no skin in that game. Im busy enough here. Try focusing on Hawaii and perhaps you can get something done but an internet chat room won't get you anywhere.



Its up to the people of the state. Just like where you live. I have laid it all out for you. You don't have to like it but that is how its is. The fact that the deer herd is still going down only means less support for the changes you want so badly for a state you have probably never been to. In preparation for tomorrow's meeting I have been looking over some data of the opinions of WI residents. I noticed that in 2008 there were 5 resolution submitted to the Congress in regards to crossbow expansion. (in 2008 the deer herd was bigger than it is now)

1. Crossbows for youth. Rejected

2. Crossbows for the late archery season only. Rejected

3. Special crossbow season Rejected.

4. Full inclusion. Rejected.

5. Lower crossbow age to 50. Passed in the county it was presented in and went to the congress legislative committee. Here is a copy/paste from the congress legislative committee that took up the resolution.

Mission:

The mission of the Legislative Committee of the Conservation Congress is to advise the legislature of the official positions of the Congress and to testify to such at legislative hearings and meetings; to review resolutions and legislation in order to advise and recommend positions to the members and leadership of the congress; and to work with the department of natural resources in the development and implementation of wildlife, habitat and conservation legislation and administrative rules.

Resolution to Allow bow hunting with a crossbow at age 50. Motion to reject by Kurtz, seconded by Grant. Motion to reject 9-0. Motion rejected.


Full inclusion, special crossbow seasons, youth crossbows, crossbows in the CWD zone etc. It has been suggested and voted on umpteen diff ways and times in WI. The results are the same. I have been involved for years and have seen the attitudes of hunters and the steadily decreasing deer herd and the effect that is having on WI hunters attitudes towards crossbows. Tomorrow's meeting should be interesting. Next Saturday should be even more enlightening. The coalition of concerned orgs is growing in WI. 


Attempts to remove archers tags and shorten the archery season is a constant battle so discussions of ways to have additional hunters killing more deer during the archery season don't get much support. This is not what you guys want to hear but that is because you are so certain crossbows are the right answer for every state that you ignore the facts and truth and the details surrounding the situation in WI. Its about the resource and the seasons that have been long fought for.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Its up to the people of the state. Just like where you live. I have laid it all out for you. You don't have to like it but that is how its is. The fact that the deer herd is still going down only means less support for the changes you want so badly for a state you have probably never been to. In preparation for tomorrow's meeting I have been looking over some data of the opinions of WI residents. I noticed that in 2008 there were 5 resolution submitted to the Congress in regards to crossbow expansion. (in 2008 the deer herd was bigger than it is now)
> 
> 1. Crossbows for youth. Rejected
> 
> 2. Crossbows for the late archery season only. Rejected
> 
> 3. Special crossbow season Rejected.
> 
> 4. Full inclusion. Rejected.
> 
> 5. Lower crossbow age to 50. Passed in the county it was presented in and went to the congress legislative committee. Here is a copy/paste from the congress legislative committee that took up the resolution.
> 
> Mission:
> 
> The mission of the Legislative Committee of the Conservation Congress is to advise the legislature of the official positions of the Congress and to testify to such at legislative hearings and meetings; to review resolutions and legislation in order to advise and recommend positions to the members and leadership of the congress; and to work with the department of natural resources in the development and implementation of wildlife, habitat and conservation legislation and administrative rules.
> 
> Resolution to Allow bow hunting with a crossbow at age 50. Motion to reject by Kurtz, seconded by Grant. Motion to reject 9-0. Motion rejected.
> 
> 
> Full inclusion, special crossbow seasons, youth crossbows, crossbows in the CWD zone etc. It has been suggested and voted on umpteen diff ways and times in WI. The results are the same. I have been involved for years and have seen the attitudes of hunters and the steadily decreasing deer herd and the effect that is having on WI hunters attitudes towards crossbows. Tomorrow's meeting should be interesting. Next Saturday should be even more enlightening. The coalition of concerned orgs is growing in WI.
> 
> 
> Attempts to remove archers tags and shorten the archery season is a constant battle so discussions of ways to have additional hunters killing more deer during the archery season don't get much support. This is not what you guys want to hear but that is because you are so certain crossbows are the right answer for every state that you ignore the facts and truth and the details surrounding the situation in WI. Its about the resource and the seasons that have been long fought for.


You seem to think I'm impressed by the fact that crossbows have so far been unanimously "rejected" by the powers that be. I'm not. I know something that you seem to have neglected, and that is that it doesn't matter what has happened so far. It only matters what WILL happen. 

This struggle is one where crossbows have the right to be included. That you and maybe even all of Wisconsin think not is just an obstacle. It is only a matter of time where we will prevail, for right is on our side. You have the might so far, but we'll prevail since there is not logical reason to keep a piece of archery equipment from inclusion.

That you are stubbornly focused on dividing hunters is going to be your undoing, and maybe with disastrous results for you and your bowhunter cronies.

Aloha.... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Whats this "we" stuff? 

LOL at "Struggle" 

Let us worry about WI and you worry about your island.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Whats this "we" stuff?
> 
> LOL at "Struggle"
> 
> Let us worry about WI and you worry about your island.


Have a good laugh. Wisconsin is just as important to those of us looking to get rightful inclusion in our own states as it is to get it included in YOURS. We have a stake in Wisconsin just as much as we have in Hawaii. Consider it a Civil Right if you will....  Consider something else too, Crabtree, it doesn't matter what you or your friends say. It doesn't matter how much you protest our involvement nor does it matter to me how much you attempt to distort the crossbow with whomever, we're going to ultimately prevail, right ALWAYS does.

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> Have a good laugh. Wisconsin is just as important to those of us looking to get rightful inclusion in our own states as it is to get it included in YOURS. We have a stake in Wisconsin just as much as we have in Hawaii. Consider it a Civil Right if you will



Thanks for the encouragement to double my efforts. I will relate this to the people I meet with this weekend and next 


By the way, this is not in any way to be confused with a civil right. I checked the bill of rights and can find no possible link. If ALL hunting were made illegal tomorrow, that would not be a national civil rights violation. You need to better understand the law and your rights. What many view as a right is not. I would go so far as to say that you actually insulted REAL civil rights causes and cheapend them by trying to link this to a civil rights cause.


----------



## BigBirdVA

Better triple them.  

It's pretty funny watching you struggle with new and creative methods of claiming a person taking a different way of getting from point A to point B shouldn't be allowed. That point A to point B is an arrow from a quiver into the ground after passing through a deer. You're going to need a lot more and a lot better than the load of bunk you've posted on here and other places. 

But it's great that you've laid your loosing hand out on the table for all to see. I'm eagerly awaiting your next pitiful attempt at justifying why not. Sunday you say?  

I've never written to another state on this issue before but I plan to after reading and following your act. Be sure to relate that back to "people" the next 2 weekends.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> *I have been nothing but honest since day one and will continue to do so.* *This is about the resource *.



If this is really about the resource than why have you provided the little presentation comparing the crosbows to rifles and making LESS than truthful statements? "Totally honest from day one" "This IS about the resource"?? Let's let the forum members decide. Are these the posts of someone concerned about the resource or is this more an attack on a weapon he apperently does not understand? 




> it a bow any more than adding an outboard motor to the other end would make it a boat or adding a spinning blade would make it a lawn mower............
> 
> It's a modified gun and as such, *has no place in an archery season*.
> 
> The crossbow lobby insists that it belongs in the woods with bows and bowhunters and as ridicules as that sounds, they did not stop there, *Today they demanded that .50 ca. Machine guns be allowed to participate in trap *and skeet events because both have a barrel and use gunpowder to fire a projectile.





> *They then demanded that Motorcycles be allowed to compete in the Tour De France bicycle race *since both have two wheels, a seat, handlebars and carry a rider.





> *They insist that Jet skis must be allowed to participate equally with canoes since they both have a hull, seats and both are a watercraft that carries people.*


Hummmmmmmmmmmm..Were your MISQUOTED? It sounds like you are attacking the WEAPON. How do these quotes defend the resource. Are these statements totally honest? So on another site (very anti crossbow) you state ( unders another name!!) the crossbow does not belong in archery season. Yet you come here stating you have been totally honest since "day one" and your opposition to the crossbow is all about the resource! Totally honest? I think not! All about the resource?...Not according to your very own words! I have asked you repeatedly to be honest about you and your organizations position & you have tap danced & provided 100's of links & pie charts...in the end once again you have been proven to have lied to the members of this forum using your very own posts. All we ask is honesty & you seem incapable of that. I will attach the link YOU yourself provided to your attack on the crossbow as a weapon....

http://probowsociety.org/cgi-pbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000030

If you go to the link you will see all the cute litte pictures Rancid attached to drive home his anti crossbow ( the weapon) attack. But he claims it's "about the resource!!" It sure did not have any of his usual charts about the herd! He was speaking about "the weapon". Surely there is not an underlying motive or agenda here! He has stated there is not! And he has stated he has been honest since "day one"! 

The cropssbow added to the Winconsin would would be just another option for the Wi hunter. Nothing more nothing less. You know the truth it just does not fit your agenda!


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Because it's about the deer herd and the current seasons. We are not looking for more hunters to kill more deer.


So why are there unlimited doe permits available in SOME South Central area's of Wisconsin? Too many deer? You are not looking for more hunters you just want to kep the CURRENT hunters harvesting "unlimited doe" in some area's. If it were truly about the the resource you would NOT be concerned about how the deer were harvested by your fellow hunters you would just want the herd deduced to sustainable levels. So again it is NOT abot the resource but the weapon....YOUR own words in one of your posts in the PBS:



> The bow/gun hybrid of today will only get more sophisticated, powerful and advanced meaning that allowing the crossbow of today into the archery season is also allowing the gun/bow hybrids of the future into the archery season......


Please correct me if I am wrong but I did not see the work *"resource"* any where in that statement....or anywhere for that matter in your cute little anti-crossbow "The Weapon" you posted on PBS....


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Thanks for the encouragement to double my efforts. I will relate this to the people I meet with this weekend and next
> 
> 
> By the way, this is not in any way to be confused with a civil right. I checked the bill of rights and can find no possible link. If ALL hunting were made illegal tomorrow, that would not be a national civil rights violation. You need to better understand the law and your rights. What many view as a right is not. I would go so far as to say that you actually insulted REAL civil rights causes and cheapend them by trying to link this to a civil rights cause.


This is why your side will lose Crabtree. You don't understand and trust me bud.... if boys can poke boys and girls can slice peaches and call that a civil right, I am on far more solid ground arguing that is a "civil" right and learn the language crabtree... Here is the Wikipedia online definition reproduced *just for you*_ "Civil and political rights are a class of rights and freedoms that protect individuals from *unwarranted action by government and private organizations and individuals* and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.

Civil rights include the ensuring of peoples' physical integrity and safety; protection from discrimination on grounds such as physical or mental disability, gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, national origin, age, and individual rights such as the freedoms of thought and conscience, speech and expression, religion, the press, and movement (to include crossbows... emphasis mine) ."_

Pitter Patter all you wish, crabtree, and DO take our position seriously and do redouble your efforts to exclude crossbows. I am hoping you triple your efforts and become more visible to the public, we are to be sure.

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Timmer, Its about the resource but others want to effect the resource and the hunting season with crossbows (the weapon) when the residents of WI have repeatedly opposed the weapon. They oppose the weapon because of the additional stress the additional hunters will put on a depleted herd (the resource) with a weapon (crossbows) they oppose and have voted done time and again. The two are linked and together make up the discussion and the opinions on the matter. sorry if this is just now news to you. We have been talking about crossbows, have we not? Crossbows and the archery deer season.


*Ratus,* sorry dude. not even close. Not even a good effort. I feel bad you wasted as much time as you did on that. WI allows the elderly and handicapped into the archery deer season. Your thinking would allow cannabis cigarettes because tobacco cigarettes are allowed. You thinking would make full auto guns a right because rifles are allowed for hunting. I would say nice try but c'mon. Lame is even too kind a word for that flop.

You posted it yourself.


_" Civil rights include the ensuring of peoples' physical integrity and safety; protection from discrimination on grounds such as physical or mental disability, gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, national origin, age, and individual rights such as the freedoms of thought and conscience, speech and expression, religion, the press, and movement."_

Crossbows (nor any weapon) are enumerated in the list of rights. States rights cant trump federal rights and in this case they have not but I would encourage you to pour every effort and waking hour into exploring this avenue.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Timmer, Its about the resource but others want to effect the resource and the hunting season with crossbows (the weapon) when the residents of WI have repeatedly opposed the weapon. They oppose the weapon because of the additional stress the additional hunters will put on a depleted herd (the resource) with a weapon (crossbows) they oppose and have voted done time and again. The two are linked and together make up the discussion and the opinions on the matter. sorry if this is just now news to you. We have been talking about crossbows, have we not? Crossbows and the archery deer season.
> 
> 
> *Ratus,* sorry dude. not even close. Not even a good effort. I feel bad you wasted as much time as you did on that. WI allows the elderly and handicapped into the archery deer season. Your thinking would allow cannabis cigarettes because tobacco cigarettes are allowed. You thinking would make full auto guns a right because rifles are allowed for hunting. I would say nice try but c'mon. Lame is even too kind a word for that flop.
> 
> You posted it yourself.
> 
> 
> _" Civil rights include the ensuring of peoples' physical integrity and safety; protection from discrimination on grounds such as physical or mental disability, gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, national origin, age, and individual rights such as the freedoms of thought and conscience, speech and expression, religion, the press, and movement."_
> 
> Crossbows (nor any weapon) are enumerated in the list of rights. States rights cant trump federal rights and in this case they have not but I would encourage you to pour every effort and waking hour into exploring this avenue.


Hahahahha.... crabtree... you are really getting pathetic here. By the way, States Rights are Superior to Federal Rights except in very limited circumstances. We are finally getting back to that in America. A bow is a bow. A crossbow is a bow and when the likes of you prevent me from using it in a season, that is discrimination. Individual rights "such as" covers a lot of territory and much of what is posted here is determined by "conscience", I'm instructed, such as the sexual orientation, and though I don't agree with it, if it is good enough fer them, then it should be good enough for a bow to be included in a bow season... not even aberrant.... and freedom of movement... well we ARE a movement to include crossbows unlike the movement you represent... :grin:

:beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Go with that. spend lots of time on it to. Please.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Go with that. spend lots of time on it to. Please.


 Have no fear mon.... have no fear and go with God why don't you....


----------



## Redclub

What gets me is Wi. is tops in B-C bucks and at or near the top in total deer kill,but there are no deer? So they are down now but still better than almost all other states. Lets face it we as bowhunters pass up numerous bucks and really are not that hard to harvest. Once upon a time any buck was a good buck now hunters are spoiled. Just maybe we have to hunt a little harder and would enjoy it more.
Redclub


----------



## rattus58

Redclub said:


> What gets me is Wi. is tops in B-C bucks and at or near the top in total deer kill,but there are no deer? So they are down now but still better than almost all other states. Lets face it we as bowhunters pass up numerous bucks and really are not that hard to harvest. Once upon a time any buck was a good buck now hunters are spoiled. Just maybe we have to hunt a little harder and would enjoy it more.
> Redclub


It would be really nice if hunters would just go out and *hunt* more in my opinion rather than spending time trying to exclude other hunters from enjoying their hunts with *their* tool of choice, whether it be with a muzzleloader that shoots smokeless, a crossbow, or a compound bow with all the gadgets and optics that shame everything I've ever owned on a firearm...

Much Aloha.... :beer:


----------



## xbow1

There are people who are NEVER going to GET crossbows. 

Crossbows scare the heck out of them.

Once a crossbow wussy, always a crossbow wussy.


----------



## marbowNC

xbow1 said:


> There are people who are NEVER going to GET crossbows.
> 
> Crossbows scare the heck out of them.
> 
> Once a crossbow wussy, always a crossbow wussy.


Not scared of a crossbow . Just choose to hunt with a bow , if I wanted to shoot something that you shoulder I would just use a rifle . :wink:


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> Not scared of a crossbow . Just choose to hunt with a bow , if I wanted to shoot something that you shoulder I would just use a rifle . :wink:


You choose a "bow"

other people choose a different kind of bow

choice-its a good thing

preventing choice based on greed-and irrational distinctions

that's a pernicious thing


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

rattus58 said:


> It would be really nice if hunters would just go out and *hunt* more in my opinion rather than spending time trying to exclude other hunters from enjoying their hunts with *their* tool of choice.



Agreed so long as the weapon of choice is legal. I may not have informed you but crossbows are illegal in WI unless your handicapped or 65 and older. That makes the crossbow a legal weapon of choice for them but illegal for others. Great law and supported by the public each time their asked. 


There was an attempt to change that today but again, it was rejected.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Agreed so long as the weapon of choice is legal. I may not have informed you but crossbows are illegal in WI unless your handicapped or 65 and older. That makes the crossbow a legal weapon of choice for them but illegal for others. Great law and supported by the public each time their asked.
> 
> 
> There was an attempt to change that today but again, it was rejected.


in other words you are anti user rather than anti weapon

why not impose the same restrictions of the very similar compound bow?


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Thanks for the encouragement to double my efforts. I will relate this to the people I meet with this weekend and next
> 
> 
> By the way, this is not in any way to be confused with a civil right. I checked the bill of rights and can find no possible link. If ALL hunting were made illegal tomorrow, that would not be a national civil rights violation. You need to better understand the law and your rights. What many view as a right is not. I would go so far as to say that you actually insulted REAL civil rights causes and cheapend them by trying to link this to a civil rights cause.


in the future, public concern over "wounding" animals is going to cause proficiency tests to be implemented. I wonder what bowhunters are going to get killed off first if such tests are imposed

sure not going to be crossbows.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> There was an attempt to change that today but again, it was rejected.


No one thinks it is going to happen today or tomorrow. But you have been servered notice. If it were about the herd why would you be spending a hunting organizations funds to tavel out of state to discuss the crossbow with out of state anti crossbow organizations? You refuse to admit for you & your organizatin it is not the resource! Could all the funds for travel & lobbyist be put to better use working on habitat? Or youth programs? You talk a good game but at the end of the day you toss aside 41.2% of your fellow bowhunters & 1 in 5 of your own organizations members to fight crossbow inclusion. You can tap dance & avoid all the questions about your personal anti crossbow posts and act like they do not exist...BUT they do and all your little pictures & smug little remarks cannot hide your true intention. You had better schedule a lot more meetings on your organizations tab soon! Crossbows are coming you can delay it but you cannot stop it! Ask Mi-NY-NC-PA-OK-TX-NJ....each of these states thought THEY were unique...and in each instance inclusion was a non issue to the resource. *41.2%....TICK-TICK-TICK*


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> why not impose the same restrictions of the very similar compound bow?


I may not have mentioned it already but compounds are bows and legal in WI. Our statutes clearly define that.




Jim C said:


> in the future, public concern over "wounding" animals is going to cause proficiency tests to be implemented.



Speculation dreamt up by you. Can you point to a date in the "Future" Ballpark it for me.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Tim50 said:


> If it were about the herd why would you be spending a hunting organizations funds to tavel out of state to discuss the crossbow with out of state anti crossbow organizations?



I was invited. I will spend my own funds. I am a volunteer interested in learning more. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.




Tim50 said:


> Could all the funds for travel & lobbyist be put to better use working on habitat? Or youth programs?



See above. 


*58.8%....TOCK-TOCK-TOCK*


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Agreed so long as the weapon of choice is legal. I may not have informed you but crossbows are illegal in WI unless your handicapped or 65 and older. That makes the crossbow a legal weapon of choice for them but illegal for others. Great law and supported by the public each time their asked.
> 
> 
> There was an attempt to change that today but again, it was rejected.


The public in Wisconsin is apparently not getting the full story then and it's certainly time that people start becoming educated about crossbows. You say there is a crossbow association in Wisconsin?

Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I was invited. I will spend my own funds.



We believe that!! Just like your opposition to the crossbow is resource related! You don't have a real good track record of dealing in truth & facts....BUT if you say so......


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I may not have mentioned it already but compounds are bows and legal in WI. Our statutes clearly define that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation dreamt up by you. Can you point to a date in the "Future" Ballpark it for me.


legal vs illegal based on lies

nice evasion

try again

I asked your opinion as to why Compounds are allowed for people who can-with sufficient practice-master a recurve or longbow

you ducked ran and said Legal v Illegal

FAIL


----------



## Jim C

rattus58 said:


> The public in Wisconsin is apparently not getting the full story then and it's certainly time that people start becoming educated about crossbows. You say there is a crossbow association in Wisconsin?
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


information is to the anti xbow crowd as sunlight is to vampires


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Sorry Jimmy, You seem to forget your place. Nice try. I have always answered every question asked. I then asked a few simple ones myself and folks went missing. Since I asked back in July, when my questions are answered honestly, I will return in kind. Why the fear? Your silence speaks volumes. Don't fear the questions. embrace the facts and you will gain enlightenment.


OR.............. Just keep avoiding and changing the subject. That never gets old. 


When you honestly answer all my questions, then you get to ask some of your own. Thus far, it's been an epic fail on your part. :wink:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Since I asked back in July, when my questions are answered honestly, I will return in kind. Why the fear? Your silence speaks volumes. Don't fear the questions. embrace the facts and you will gain enlightenment.
> 
> 
> OR.............. Just keep avoiding and changing the subject. That never gets old.
> 
> 
> When you honestly answer all my questions, then you get to ask some of your own. Thus far, it's been an epic fail on your part. :wink:



Your the best at evasion....it's no wonder your the political guy for your little anti crossbow organization. The next time you answer a question honestly will be the first....always a moving target! When the going gets tuff the WBH gets lobbyist, and out of state "advisors" then uses their dues to trave out of state to put thier plan to fight fellow WI hunters in place!!! It all about the weapon....!!!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

More avoidance.


58.8% TOCK-TOCK-TOCK :wink:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> More avoidance.
> 
> 
> 58.8% TOCK-TOCK-TOCK :wink:


Enjoy you all expense paid trip to the alter of P&Y to put together your plan to fight fellow WI hunters & keep crossbows, for all hunters, out of the WI woods. You have stated repeatedly the hunters of WI do not want crossbows yet you TAKE the WBH's dues to cart you around the country making backroom deals with anti crossbow organization form outside WI! Why the travel or the outside help? Save the WBH's dues.....WI does not want crossbows so why the rush? I guess your little anti crossbow organization does not feel it can TRUST the hunters of WI to make these decisions! Or do you just need a vacation on your organizations tab? Jim C does KNOW..... his place.....it is speaking for all hunters not just the chosen elitest! WI will not change over night....apperently too much political backroom types & business as usual......FOR NOW...Your typical political type pie charte & cut & paste 1000's of words to hide your true agenda all the while with you hand DEEP in the pockets of the people you supposedly represent. Send me a post card from P&Y.....on the WBH's tab!! The *41.2%* of WI bowhunters and *20%* of your very own organization got your attention!! AS IT SHOULD!


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Sorry Jimmy, You seem to forget your place. Nice try. I have always answered every question asked. I then asked a few simple ones myself and folks went missing. Since I asked back in July, when my questions are answered honestly, I will return in kind. Why the fear? Your silence speaks volumes. Don't fear the questions. embrace the facts and you will gain enlightenment.
> 
> 
> OR.............. Just keep avoiding and changing the subject. That never gets old.
> 
> 
> When you honestly answer all my questions, then you get to ask some of your own. Thus far, it's been an epic fail on your part. :wink:



Since your questions are dishonest why should you expect honest answers? 

I don't care if you answer mine-its the question that matters not the evasion. 

We all know what motivates you and what you say matters not


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> Since your questions are dishonest why should you expect honest answers?



LOL at dishonest question Jim. Didn't know such a thing existed. A question is a question. It does not have the ability to be dishonest. Your fear of answering honestly is all that matters and so completely exposes you. AGAIN! The honest answers you refuse to give will crumble the sandy foundation you hope to build an argument upon. :wink:


Timmer, as I stated, I travel on my own dime and even when on normal duties in state do I not always submit an expense report and cover it myself (like Saturday's meeting CWD meeting in which I volunteered my time and mileage). that is what volunteers do but since you remain concerned for the coffers of an org you don't belong to, you will want to know this. $1 from each membership is allocated to the bowhunter defense fund. At our annual banquet, members buy defender tickets that go directly into the fund. Annually clubs hold bowhunter defense fund archery shoots to add money to that particular component of WBH. Defending and protecting the archery deer season is one of the reasons WBH exists and we budget annually for it. The good folks at P&Y and NABC and PBS gather for an annual summit and this year I was invited so I am accepting the offer. Knowledge gathering and networking and ideas sharing is a great thing and I look forward to this weekend's events. The advanced agenda looks to be quite interesting and worthy of the trip.:thumbs_up


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> LOL at dishonest question Jim. Didn't know such a thing existed. A question is a question. It does not have the ability to be dishonest. Your fear of answering honestly is all that matters and so completely exposes you. AGAIN! The honest answers you refuse to give will crumble the sandy foundation you hope to build an argument upon. :wink:
> 
> 
> Timmer, as I stated, I travel on my own dime and even when on normal duties in state do I not always submit an expense report and cover it myself (like Saturday's meeting CWD meeting in which I volunteered my time and mileage). that is what volunteers do but since you remain concerned for the coffers of an org you don't belong to, you will want to know this. $1 from each membership is allocated to the bowhunter defense fund. At our annual banquet, members buy defender tickets that go directly into the fund. Annually clubs hold bowhunter defense fund archery shoots to add money to that particular component of WBH. Defending and protecting the archery deer season is one of the reasons WBH exists and we budget annually for it. The good folks at P&Y and NABC and PBS gather for an annual summit and this year I was invited so I am accepting the offer. Knowledge gathering and networking and ideas sharing is a great thing and I look forward to this weekend's events. The advanced agenda looks to be quite interesting and worthy of the trip.:thumbs_up



your quiz is dishonest as are your evasions. You fear crossbows because crossbows have been proven to bring new hunters into archery season. You don't want more archers competing against you. All the rants about how crossbows are supposedly different are nothing more than a facade. The only issue that matters is 

1) more people enjoying archery season (bad to you-good to me)
2) and the ego issues some anti xbow people have since they labor under the delusion that their status as bowhunters is somehow diluted if some other hunter uses a crossbow

there RC- I have completely and accurately summed up the mindset driving the opposition to the rational concept of treating xbows the same as compounds. Nothing else is needed or required


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Dont fear the questions. Embrace the facts and the WI condition. You can do this. Swallow hard and admit what you fear. The questions are there for you. Avoiding and dancing around does not serve you well. Honest to goodness policy makers in WI understand the importance of these questions and the answers. Don't let fear run your life. :wink:


----------



## dale9805

Jim C said:


> your quiz is dishonest as are your evasions. You fear crossbows because *crossbows have been proven to bring new hunters into archery season. You don't want more archers competing against you. All *the rants about how crossbows are supposedly different are nothing more than a facade. The only issue that matters is
> 
> 1) more people enjoying archery season (bad to you-good to me)
> 2) and the ego issues some anti xbow people have since they labor under the delusion that their status as bowhunters is somehow diluted if some other hunter uses a crossbow
> 
> there RC- I have completely and accurately summed up the mindset driving the opposition to the rational concept of treating xbows the same as compounds. Nothing else is needed or required


to be honest i think your correct here, that's the way i feel about them anyway.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I travel on my own dime



Sure your do!:wink: Forgive me if I question this....but you have somewhat of a shady track record when it comes to the truth....

We are supposed to take the word from a guy who:

Changes his name from forum to forum. Seems like your trying to hide something right...Archer or is it Rancid today? 

States (on this forum as Rancid) his opposition to the crossbow is "resource" driven THEN on (another forum posting as Archer) he produces a little dog & pony show on why the crossbow should not be in archery season....leaving out his "resource" agenda totally. 

When confronted with questions about his stance or his little anti crossbow organizations stance he hides behind the rather childish " I asked you first"!! If you could answer the questions factualy & ( now get this...) honestly you would go a long wat towards proving your point instead you play the clown & divert & circumvent the question. If you had the facts to reply I am sure you would......BUT avoiding these issues proves our point....

You see your reputation has been build here....and truth & honesty are not part of your foundation! Now if you come back as one of your other alter egos....maybe you can try & convince us!

In the mean time taking money from the hunters that support your organization to further the hunter against hunter fighting in Wisconsin is not something any TRUE hunter would do. You prolong this fight to benifit YOURSELF!!! It sure does not help the hunters of Wisconsin! I understand that with a tough economy everyone could use some added income....you just chose to do it at the expense of the hunters of Wicsonsin......But thats your option Rancid....or.....Archer....or.......Ron.... I guess the deception never ends!!!..........


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Your inability to accept the truth does not changes the facts. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. :wink:


You want the truth?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM&feature=related


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Your inability to accept the truth does not changes the facts.



I am suprised you can spell FACT....now look up the meaning of the word & start all these threads over again....I guess you have lived with the anti crossbow misinformation & lies so long in many different state, under many different names that in your warped little elitest mind they have become facts...to you & you ONLY!!.....This is exactly how you handle anything when you are cornered....make a joke & place the blame somewhere else!! Go to you training class this weekend with all the anti crossbow organizations spending the hunters of Wisconsin's money to further your anti crossbow-anti hunter agenda!! I am sure the "resource" will be a huge topic there also.......Have a steak dinner for me.....it's free right??? The Wisconsin hunters have been duped into thinking they are "defending hunting'!!!:icon_jokercolor: It just shows how low you & your organization will go to further your own elitest agenda......Make it lobster the hunters of WI want their "defenders" with a full belly!!!! (and pockets!!!!!) So Monday will you have a new approch to the anti crossbow situation.....a new name???? Just let us know who you are next week.....we like to TRY & keep tabs on you......And please TRY & bring some NEW misinformation to the table...the ones you use now are not working......


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Your melt down is nothing if not entertaining. :set1_violent002:


This is really frustrating you to the core, isn't it? :frusty:


The opinions of hunters in WI and WBH members makes it clear that the majority oppose crossbows. Vox Populi, 58.8% TOCK_TOCK_TOCK


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Your melt down is nothing if not entertaining. :set1_violent002:
> 
> 
> This is really frustrating you to the core, isn't it? :frusty:
> 
> 
> The opinions of hunters in WI and WBH members makes it clear that the majority oppose crossbows. *Vox Populi, 58.8% TOCK_TOCK_TOCK*


We'll see..... 

Aloha....


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Your melt down is nothing if not entertaining. :set1_violent002:
> 
> 
> This is really frustrating you to the core, isn't it? :frusty:
> 
> 
> The opinions of hunters in WI and WBH members makes it clear that the majority oppose crossbows. Vox Populi, 58.8% TOCK_TOCK_TOCK


Not a meltdown at all! You do not even realize when you are called out because you backtrack & shift gears so fast....Your smug attitude I guess is warrented because you currently have the upperhand. You also understand that if you were to answer truthfully or honestly THAT would undermind your entire misinformation campagin. So be cocky & refuse the truth because you know it is coming to an end....Just like in Michigan all your lies & misinformation worked for a while....but people see thru people & organizations like you. Enjoy it while you can.....your milking of the WI hunters will come to an end. Then you can turn to politics....you will be perfectly suited...........41.2%..........Tick-Tick-Tick


----------



## Jim C

dale9805 said:


> to be honest i think your correct here, that's the way i feel about them anyway.


it was the same way 40 years ago--the recurve hunters didn't want compounds in THEIR woods. They claimed people with compounds were hunters not archers and would probably be slobs and wound alot of deer etc.

In reality, all those claims were a facade for "we don't want anyone shooting our deer"

guess what, no one is entitled to deer anymore than another resident of the state and making artificial restrictions on bows in order to advance selfishness is both greedy and counterproductive in the long run


----------



## Redclub

I don' believe there was a uproar over compounds,(I was there) the first ones were crude and virtually no let off (17%). No law to say they were ok or any to say that they weren't. Not that way anymore? X-bows just another small advancement.
Redclub


----------



## rjs

Looks like the % just changed to 41.3. I have been following the R.C. threads--not posting, just reading and watching. Due to an injury, I have had some extra time on my hands. I visited the WBH website-to look for information. Georgia, Tennessee and Michigan were states that were brought up in the last few threads and on the WBH website. I decided to visit their websites to look for harvest data-hunter numbers-success rates, ect. I must admit, I was surprised. I thought that X-bows would have a huge impact on deer harvest and hunter numbers. This really is not the case based on the info I looked at. 

There has been a "quiz" posted on a prior thread, I believe one of the questions was about who is excluded from bowhunting in WI. I can answer that one, ME. I have a damaged tendon in my elbow and can't shoot my regular bow. I am "injured" not "disabled", so per WI DNR rules I am out of luck unless I can heal in time for Archery season. After thinking about my situation and the WI rule of 30lb minimum draw weight, I suspect that some of the very young hunters will have trouble pulling the min. weight required also. My daughter couldn't--she is tiny. She now only gun hunts instead. 

I had never given any thought to using a X-bow myself, never really had the desire to do so. But given the current situation I'm in, well.....If it means using a x-bow or not hunting, the x-bow wins every time. Unfortunately it is not an option due to current regulations. 

Mr. Crabtree, I really admire you for the amount of time and energy that you invest in fighting for what you (WBH) believe in, I just wish it was for a cause that I could support. From what I see, WBH uses any issue they can to push an anti- X-bow agenda and I just can not support this. I am a hunter FIRST--a bowhunter SECOND. If the WBH would drop the anti- X-bow issue and focus on supporting all hunters, I would again support them.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I see an opportunity here. I hear nothing of lobbying to reduce or simplify the requirements to get a disabled permit. That is something you and others could initiate via the Conservation Congress process. This would be supported by the majority and would perhaps make your situation better and allow you to use a crossbow. Perhaps even lowering the age a bit to help those not disabled but still unable to use a bow. There are plenty of things to do that would be supported. Some want it all or nothing and so they have got nothing because they are not flexible or willing to compromise. Start with the CC and you might be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## missedabiggun

I've actually been reading this thread, and really am amazed at the futility...from both sides. Face it, you'll never convince your opponent that you are correct. Just when I think every post on this thread will be another wasted effort, I'm pleasantly surprised. RJS...I commend you for looking at the data, and if you visit the harvest totals from my home state of NJ, you'd have added another state to your list in which the crossbow did not decimate the herd. Factor in Sunday bowhunting for the first time in NJ's history, and the consistency of the harvest is even more telling. I was in the same boat as you. Injured, not disabled. I did not qualify for the disabled permit, because my injury is correctable with surgery, a surgery that would result in me being out of work for a minimum of eight weeks. I have a mortgage, a wife and two kids. Not working for two months is not an option. I put down my vertical in 2006, and figured I was done with bow season. Along came full inclusion, and I'm back in the game. It was nice to see the acorns drop from a tree stand, instead of my porch. 

I respect passion for the sport of hunting as well. While I do not agree with RC, I will concede that he is passionate about what he believes in. I ran into several others here in NJ who were very much like him prior to full inclusion. Even some of the most staunch opponents of crossbows have had to moderate their stance. The facts do not lie. Hunters should stand along side hunters, not in their way.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub said:


> I don' believe there was a uproar over compounds,(I was there) the first ones were crude and virtually no let off (17%). Redclub


I was there too. In WI, there was little opposition. That change however certainly had a huge effect on harvest rates.

Archery harvest data from 66 to 72 show an average annual take of around 6 to 7K

5 years later, in 77, that annual harvest was more than doubled to 18,000

in 86 it was 40,500

in 96 it was 73,000

in 2006 it was 114,000

This fact is not missed by the 400,000 gun hunters in WI that do not bow hunt. The current deer herd situation leaves them less than excited about any further increases in participation and harvest. They would just increase the calls for shortening the archery season or removing archery antlerless tags like they are already doing with the existing legal weapons. I just have a real hard time geting excited by these guys from out of state that insist we change our ways for them when its clear the majority opinion of WI hunters does not support full intrusion. Their passion and rage is interesting but pointless.


----------



## Tim50

missedabiggun said:


> Face it, you'll never convince your opponent that you are correct. RJS...I commend you for looking at the data, and if you visit the harvest totals from my home state of NJ, you'd have added another state to your list in which the crossbow did not decimate the herd. Factor in Sunday bowhunting for the first time in NJ's history, and the consistency of the harvest is even more telling. I was in the same boat as you. Injured, not disabled. I did not qualify for the disabled permit, because my injury is correctable with surgery, a surgery that would result in me being out of work for a minimum of eight weeks. I have a mortgage, a wife and two kids. Not working for two months is not an option. I put down my vertical in 2006, and figured I was done with bow season. Along came full inclusion, and I'm back in the game. It was nice to see the acorns drop from a tree stand, instead of my porch.


My point is there is more & more data out there on crossbow inclusion that shows that the inclusion was a non issue in terms of hunter & resource impact. These facts are ignored by the anti crossbow side. All I have asked since day one is honesty & truth in dealing with inclusion in any state...use the available facts to support their position. It's stories like yours, of a hunter getting BACK into the woods, that makes this all worthwhile. And please add Pennsylvania to the list of inclusion non events. Sooner or later the facts will be too much to ignore!....


----------



## Redclub

I hear what you are saying about injured not handicapped,9 years ago (then age 60) I tore the bicep tendon off my forearm I had 3 surgeries to repair it. Doc would not give me a permit as He said it was not permanent? He is against hunting tho. Well the next year a horse fell on me and ruined my shoulder and then I got a permit for 5 years. Since then I of course turned 65 and did not get my permit updated,However I am going to CO. elk hunting this year and needed a x-bow permit so its back to Doc and therapist to get needed info (not covered by insurance and it shouldn't be)
I did get a permit But Co. has more restrictions such as no scopes and old eyes I will use a peep, no big deal but did cost another $1000 as not all X-Bows can be shot with a peep. Getting a handicap permit is not very easy and is costly.
REdclub


----------



## xbow1

Redclub said:


> Getting a handicap permit is not very easy and is costly.


Yes, this is the absolute truth. Getting a handicapped permit is expensive and extremely difficult not to mention the gamble. You do not get your money back if they deny you which many times is the case. The medical industry is filthy with anti-hunters. I could tell you stories about things said to me by so-called medical professionals that would make your ears bleed.

This is the biggest lie the ant-hunting archery hunters use against crossbows is all you need is a doctor's signature to get a disabled permit...*LIE LIE LIE!!!* I had an acquaintance tell me that his shoulder was a little sore and he was thinking about getting a crossbow permit since it was so easy to get one. 

I had to laugh and asked him where in the heck did you get that information? Guess where? From the archery club he belongs to. Oh yeah, he went on...*everybody knows* how easy it is to get a crossbow permit.

This is the anti's hugest lie ever...that *everyone can participate* in the archery season....Lie, Lie, Lie...

They do NOT just hand out crossbow permits. They sell them to select people who can afford them and people who are beat to a pulp. 

*Everyone else in between is excluded from the archery season, period!*


----------



## Tim50

rjs said:


> I thought that X-bows would have a huge impact on deer harvest and hunter numbers. This really is not the case based on the info I looked at.
> 
> There has been a "quiz" posted on a prior thread, I believe one of the questions was about who is excluded from bowhunting in WI. I can answer that one, ME. I have a damaged tendon in my elbow and can't shoot my regular bow. I am "injured" not "disabled", so per WI DNR rules I am out of luck unless I can heal in time for Archery season. After thinking about my situation and the WI rule of 30lb minimum draw weight, I suspect that some of the very young hunters will have trouble pulling the min. weight required also. My daughter couldn't--she is tiny. She now only gun hunts instead.
> 
> I had never given any thought to using a X-bow myself, never really had the desire to do so. But given the current situation I'm in, well.....If it means using a x-bow or not hunting, the x-bow wins every time. Unfortunately it is not an option due to current regulations.
> 
> Mr. Crabtree, I really admire you for the amount of time and energy that you invest in fighting for what you (WBH) believe in, I just wish it was for a cause that I could support. *From what I see, WBH uses any issue they can to push an anti- X-bow agenda and I just can not support this. I am a hunter FIRST--a bowhunter SECOND. If the WBH would drop the anti- X-bow issue and focus on supporting all hunters, I would again support them*.



I would hope keeping fellow hunters out of the WI woods should not be a priority of ANY hunting organization! Apperently the WBH is the exception....One would think the WBH with all their lobbyist & political affiliations would have seen this injustice & worked to correct it for the bowhunters of WI. This is not about inclusion it is more about doing the right thing. My thoughts are the WBH did not address this injustice becaues easing the handicap requirements or lowering age requirements would give the crossbow the so called "foot in the door"! Once people handle & use a crossbow, first hand, years of misinformation & outright lies MELT AWAY!! And organizations have spent years supplying this misinformation....they would look foolish if and when hunters see the truth for themselves! RJS GOOD POST and I hope things work out for you & you have a complete recovery....and your need for a crossbow becomes a mute point. And at some point if you WANT to use a crossbow it will be a viable option for all hunters not just for the older hunter or the injured. Organizations that fight crossbows are fighting fellow hunters...plain & simple. You have made some great points.....


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub said:


> I did get a permit But Co. has more restrictions such as no scopes and old eyes I will use a peep, no big deal but did cost another $1000 as not all X-Bows can be shot with a peep. Getting a handicap permit is not very easy and is costly.REdclub



Holy smokes!! no high powered rifle scopes??? and $1000 to use a xbow?? Sounds like the AT crossbow mafia had best descend upon CO to right a wrong. Wherever crossbow injustice is found, they will be there (not actually do anything, just talking about it on a chat room) Wherever they feel other states got it wrong. Thats where you will find them (well not really but they will complain about on an internet chat room)


Wonder twin powers activate! With their combined powers, they have the ability to.................................. Well................................ uh............................... Well really nothing except pound out angry posts on a chat room. :set1_STOOGE2: :set1_STOOGE2: Just call upon the justice league of the almost concerned (with no skin in the game) They will assemble here at any minute from all corners of the US.


----------



## rattus58

Tim50 said:


> I would hope keeping fellow hunters out of the WI woods should not be a priority of ANY hunting organization! Apperently the WBH is the exception....One would think the WBH with all their lobbyist & political affiliations would have seen this injustice & worked to correct it for the bowhunters of WI. This is not about inclusion it is more about doing the right thing. My thoughts are the WBH did not address this injustice becaues easing the handicap requirements or lowering age requirements would give the crossbow the so called "foot in the door"! Once people handle & use a crossbow, first hand, years of misinformation & outright lies MELT AWAY!! And organizations have spent years supplying this misinformation....they would look foolish if and when hunters see the truth for themselves! RJS GOOD POST and I hope things work out for you & you have a complete recovery....and your need for a crossbow becomes a mute point. And at some point if you WANT to use a crossbow it will be a viable option for all hunters not just for the older hunter or the injured. Organizations that fight crossbows are fighting fellow hunters...plain & simple. You have made some great points.....


I say that all of us have an obligation to contact whomever you can whereever you can to help educate the public and continue to pressure DNR's everywhere on the inclusion of crossbows. Besides convoluted explanations of detailed descriptions of what constitutes a bow, and you know that these spagettio like descriptions are deliberatly created to EXCLUDE a type of equipment.

It is the obligation of hunters everywhere to call any state and ask if they can use a crossbow in archery season and if not, lobby immediately and then continuously with crossbow organizations from those states. As far as Wisconsin goes, we're going to do what we can to start a dialog with them and organizations that can get the word out. 

I would suggest that crossbow shooters get in touch with the many BUSINESS organizations that reside in each state. They all have a stake in Hunting, hunters, and tourism, whether they understand that or not. If not, they too need to be educated and included. Businessmen also have MUCH MORE POLITITICAL CLOUT than do a group of exclusionary bowhunters. Money talks and Bull Chit walks is an adage I've heard since being a child, and you know... it is absolutely true.

Economics matters, common sense matters, and positive attitude matters as of course so does TRUTH. 

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## awshucks

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Holy smokes!! no high powered rifle scopes??? Sounds like the AT crossbow mafia had best descend upon CO to right a wrong. Wherever crossbow injustice is found, they will be there (not actually do anything, just talking about it on a chat room) Wherever they feel other states got it wrong. Thats where you will find them (well not really but they will complain about on an internet chat room)
> 
> 
> Wonder twin powers activate! With their combined powers, they have the ability to.................................. Well................................ uh............................... Well really nothing except pound out angry posts on a chat room. :set1_STOOGE2: :set1_STOOGE2:


It's my understanding that until recently, Al had the same no scoped xbow rules as Co.

If so, I'm sure someone did more than 'chat'.


----------



## rattus58

awshucks said:


> It's my understanding that until recently, Al had the same no scoped xbow rules as Co.
> 
> If so, I'm sure someone did more than 'chat'.


Exactly... and not to worry.... people everywhere need to be educated and people everywhere need to just get the word out. This is ONLY a matter of time.

Much Aloha... :beer:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

They are begining to assemble. Now if we can just get an out of state group to tell WI lawmakers how to make our laws. The timing is perfect for this. :wink:


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> They are begining to assemble. Now if we can just get an out of state group to tell WI lawmakers how to make our laws. The timing is perfect for this. :wink:


Well then my timing couldn't have been more perfect could it.....


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Yes, this forum serves a purpose. :thumbs_up


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Holy smokes!! no high powered rifle scopes??? and $1000 to use a xbow??


More selective responses. Priced a bare bones Mathews lately? Throw in a rest and stabilizer and you're pushing $1,000. They have scopes for compounds as well as bow mounted range finders and lasers and so on........ Don't forget the trigger.....errrrrr........ I mean release. :wink: Point is you can spend more or less in each type of archery. Just shows how you skew things to make it fit your agenda.


----------



## xbow1

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Yes, this forum serves a purpose. :thumbs_up


Too bad you can't say the same thing about your Wisconsin Bowsite forum. 

There was an interesting crossbow thread going on there this morning that got yanked, same as any other crossbow thread on WI bowsite. The Wisconsin members aren't even allowed to discuss crossbows on there local forum. This thread they were talking positive about crossbows. 

They were saying they weren't so bad and that 113,000 WI NRA members were about to squash the 6500 WBH members on WI crossbow issues. Your club is going to lose bigtime and getting threads yanked from an internet chat room won't change this. 


You can't even stop your own bro's from liking crossbows, how ARE you going to stop the rest of the world?

Good luck with that! :darkbeer:


----------



## BigBirdVA

xbow1 said:


> Too bad you can't say the same thing about your Wisconsin Bowsite forum.................


They're not allowed there because of the beating they take. Besides you don't want people finding out the truth when you've spent so much effort and time burying it under so many layers of lies. 

Last week or so on the WI forum there was a post on Xbows being allowed in OK. They went on to discuss it in depth until a large number said so what? Then they yanked it. 
What's funny was RC was right in the mix with his usual crapola. But on here he states outsiders have no business in another states affairs. 
Pot, meet Kettle ! :wink:


----------



## Jim C

BigBirdVA said:


> They're not allowed there because of the beating they take. Besides you don't want people finding out the truth when you've spent so much effort and time burying it under so many layers of lies.
> 
> Last week or so on the WI forum there was a post on Xbows being allowed in OK. They went on to discuss it in depth until a large number said so what? Then they yanked it.
> What's funny was RC was right in the mix with his usual crapola. But on here he states outsiders have no business in another states affairs.
> Pot, meet Kettle ! :wink:


Bowsite/PBS was the same way. The Bowsite owner-Pat Lefemine or something like that had a big editorial several years back citing the discredited and lie filled Marlow Report (novices with xbows outshooting pro compound archers etc) bashing Xbows. When Willie and I tuned up his load of nonsense, we were banned. I thrashed PBS nonsense with a letter to Trad archer only to have one of the writers attempt to rebut it with a lie filled bit of BS. When I wrote another letter citing NAA and NFAA scores proving that world champion crossbow archers were not beating even top amateur compound archers (and thus to say a novice with a hunting xbow would beat professional compound archers), they refused to print it it


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

xbow1 said:


> Too bad you can't say the same thing about your Wisconsin Bowsite forum.
> 
> There was an interesting crossbow thread going on there this morning that got yanked, same as any other crossbow thread on WI bowsite.



I have not been there today but I just looked and see no such thread. I did notice that great looking WBH logo on the right side of the page though. :wink:

I see a few more of the justice league have assembled. One or two more and you will have reached max power and can....................... Uhmmmmmmmm, complain on an internet chat room. Youre Awesome.


----------



## marbowNC

I seen something interesting a few post up , not allowed to use scopes on crossbows !! Sounds fair to me if the Xbow crowd wants to use them make them put sights on them like a BOW !! But I guess that wouldn't be fair to Xbow hunters then would it ?!!BooHOOO !!LOL


----------



## BigBirdVA

marbowNC said:


> I seen something interesting a few post up , not allowed to use scopes on crossbows !! Sounds fair to me if the Xbow crowd wants to use them make them put sights on them like a BOW !! But I guess that wouldn't be fair to Xbow hunters then would it ?!!BooHOOO !!LOL


That's because not all of us can (or claim we can - 2 different things) shoot 1" groups at 60 yds all day ! 

Besides you're in the lucky group now ! Your state's DNR saw past all the BS and went full inclusion. Again congratulations to you and the whole state of NC for your victory over the greedy elitist. 


A FYI for you....... If there were no scopes allowed we would just use a Holosight or zero mag red dot or even pins. Sorry to inform you it's not a key pivotal or arguing point for you.


----------



## xbow1

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I just looked and see no such thread.


Many of us DID see it and I'm fairly certain YOU did too. You remind me of General Custer. You, ranchid will be sitting on top of a hill someday stating; "Where did all of these indians come from?" It's coming soon!


----------



## rattus58

xbow1 said:


> Many of us DID see it and I'm fairly certain YOU did too. You remind me of General Custer. You, ranchid will be sitting on top of a hill someday stating; "Where did all of these indians come from?" It's coming soon!



As Tonto sayed to the Lone Ranger while surrounded by a herd of feathered friends.... "What mean WE, Kimosabe"..... :wink:


----------



## Redclub

marbowNC said:


> I seen something interesting a few post up , not allowed to use scopes on crossbows !! Sounds fair to me if the Xbow crowd wants to use them make them put sights on them like a BOW !! But I guess that wouldn't be fair to Xbow hunters then would it ?!!BooHOOO !!LOL


Now where did you get the idea that I was crying, I am just glad I can go to CO.and hunt during archery season. I don't have a problem with a peep just that you have to buy a special bow to shoot one. Same as with a Muzzle loader out there, no problem for me either. Its up to them what they want to do. 
Redclub


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> I seen something interesting a few post up , not allowed to use scopes on crossbows !! Sounds fair to me if the Xbow crowd wants to use them make them put sights on them like a BOW !! But I guess that wouldn't be fair to Xbow hunters then would it ?!!BooHOOO !!LOL


why are you against accuracy? PETA loves people like you

let me guess-you think its UNFAIR to you. But given you claim to be more accurate than Reo Wilde or Erica Anschutz you should have no problem COMPETING with those evil crossbows. As the coach of the current WCSA world champion, I know he cannot shoot dime sized groups at sixty yards all the time


----------



## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> I seen something interesting a few post up , not allowed to use scopes on crossbows !! Sounds fair to me if the Xbow crowd wants to use them make them put sights on them like a BOW !! But I guess that wouldn't be fair to Xbow hunters then would it ?!!BooHOOO !!LOL


Don't be an nitwit.... http://www.selectarchery.com/bullseye.shtml

8 power scopes are available for bows and have been for a long time.


----------



## marbowNC

rattus58 said:


> Don't be an nitwit.... http://www.selectarchery.com/bullseye.shtml
> 
> 8 power scopes are available for bows and have been for a long time.


I know that you can put scopes on a bow , A scope for a bow is not like one on a rifle or say Xbow !! The type scope that is on Xbows pick up light , the scopes you put on a bow just has magnification . the only people that use scopes on a bow is tournament shooters , you can't hunt with that type lens (scope)!!


----------



## marbowNC

Jim C said:


> why are you against accuracy? PETA loves people like you
> 
> let me guess-you think its UNFAIR to you. But given you claim to be more accurate than Reo Wilde or Erica Anschutz you should have no problem COMPETING with those evil crossbows. As the coach of the current WCSA world champion, I know he cannot shoot dime sized groups at sixty yards all the time


I think if people like you want to use a xbow you should have to use sights like a bow !! You are the one who thinks a Xbow is a Bow , so shoot it like a bow !!


----------



## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> I know that you can put scopes on a bow , A scope for a bow is not like one on a rifle or say Xbow !! The type scope that is on Xbows pick up light , the scopes you put on a bow just has magnification . the only people that use scopes on a bow is tournament shooters , you can't hunt with that type lens (scope)!!


Oh christ give it up you nitwit..... :thumbs_do Get relevant, get a life, and get real.


----------



## marbowNC

rattus58 said:


> Oh christ give it up you nitwit..... :thumbs_do Get relevant, get a life, and get real.


Thats all you got is name calling ?!! What consern is it over your in this thread , your on a DAMN island !! SO get lost Gilliagin !!


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> I think if people like you want to use a xbow you should have to use sights like a bow !! You are the one who thinks a Xbow is a Bow , so shoot it like a bow !!


why, that is stupid

why not make training wheel shooters use fingers and no peep sights like us recurve shooters do

One last time
how are you hurt by what type of bow another hunter uses?


----------



## Tim50

marbowNC said:


> I think if people like you want to use a xbow you should have to use sights like a bow !! You are the one who thinks a Xbow is a Bow , so shoot it like a bow !!


I think if people like you want to use a bow you should have to take the *wheels off *!! You are the one who think a compound is a Bow , *so shoot it like a bow *!! You see it goes BOTH ways...until recently your beloved P&Y would not even recongise your compound bow harvest if the bow was over 65% letoff now they grudgingly accept it but with an *!!! Use the bow of your choice.....they are ALL legal in North Carolina!!


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> They are begining to assemble. Now if *we can just get an out of state group to tell WI lawmakers how to make our laws. *The timing is perfect for this. :wink:


You are following your own advice! You have P&Y (out of state), NABC (out of state), PBS (out of state) dictating to the WBH's how their organization should be run. So this weekend while you are being brainwashed by these OUT OF STATE anti crossbow organization....traveling, eating & drinking on the WBH's members tab TRY & think what might be best for WI hunters...By the the way is your meeting OUT OF STATE!! Have a drink or two OUT OF STATE on the Wi hunters you have duped & are milking their organizations funds!!! :darkbeer: I guess you cannot trust the hunters & sportsman of Wisconsin to make their own decisions the WBH needs OUT OF STATE input to tell the hunters of WI how their organization is to be run!!!! Enjoy the mini vacation on the WBH membership & don't forget sunscreen!!! If you do just charge it to WBH!!!!


----------



## marbowNC

Jim C said:


> why, that is stupid
> 
> why not make training wheel shooters use fingers and no peep sights like us recurve shooters do
> 
> One last time
> how are you hurt by what type of bow another hunter uses?


Im not hurt by what type another uses , I just think if your gonna BOW hunt , go by what you use on a hunting bow !! If you wanna use a scope then take a rifle during gun season !! When your hunting in early morning or evening with a bow it is much more difficult to see your sights , with a scope your gonna shoot until its past shooting hours !! A scope gathers light does it not ?!! using finger realease or a peep sight isnot gonna make one diffrence in low light or for that matter shooting the bow , your holding the same weight either way and you anchor the same so you don't really need a peep sight !! I recon your crossbow shooters is "training wheel shooters as well" . MOST of them are using wheels on there Xbows !!


----------



## xbow1

marbowNC said:


> I know that you can put scopes on a bow , A scope for a bow is not like one on a rifle or say Xbow !! The type scope that is on Xbows pick up light , the scopes you put on a bow just has magnification . the only people that use scopes on a bow is tournament shooters , you can't hunt with that type lens (scope)!!


Now I'm convinced you're about 12 or 13 years old.

Does your mommy know you're on the computer with adults?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I'll ask again. Lets see if any can provide honest answers for once or if they will dance, twist, avoid, stammer, sputter or go into hiding.

1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.

2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow? 

3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)

5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question. 

Now a multiple choice question.

6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below) 

(A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year 

(B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.

(C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?. 

Lets see if somebody finally has it in him to at try. Thus far I have been disappointed by those that pretend to care a great deal about WI. :wink:


----------



## awshucks

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'll ask again. Lets see if any can provide honest answers for once or if they will dance, twist, avoid, stammer, sputter or go into hiding.
> 
> 1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.
> 
> 2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow?
> 
> 3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?
> 
> 4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)
> 
> 5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question.
> 
> Now a multiple choice question.
> 
> 6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below)
> 
> (A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year
> 
> (B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.
> 
> (C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?.
> 
> Lets see if somebody finally has it in him to at try. Thus far I have been disappointed by those that pretend to care a great deal about WI. :wink:


It's actually simpler than a semester exam, Rancid. Your whole premise and list of loaded questions is based on your assumption of a major advantage to xbow use. This is not so, according to various states harvest stats.

Here ya go again: Ar data [you got the links once cause I gave them to you]

'05-'06 132,415 total kill, verts 6.5% xbow 3.3% [8720] and [4,374]
'06-'07 165,663 " " " 6.4% " 2.7% [10,613] " [4,608]
'07-'08 169,853 " " " 7.3% " 3.4% [12,356] " [5,713]
'08-'09 184,991 " " " 7.1% " 2.8% [13,175] " [5203]


Guns got the rest. Source: ADFG. This is after over 30 yrs of full inc. For anyone. 5 month season, 3-4 deer not counting urban freebies. If there was any magic or advantage in the xbows these numbers would reflect it. Notice in no yrs did the xbow get even 1/2 the % the verts did?

Naturally, when 1st apprised of these facts, you went for the jugular wanting to know hunters hours afield. Who gives a rat's patootie on them? ADFG sure doesn't, they don't keep track, they are far too busy for mundane bs keeping our herd in great shape.

Have at!:darkbeer:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'll ask again. Lets see if any can provide honest answers for once or if they will dance, twist, avoid, stammer, sputter or go into hiding.
> 
> 1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.
> 
> 2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow?
> 
> 3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?
> 
> 4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)
> 
> 5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question.
> 
> Now a multiple choice question.
> 
> 6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below)
> 
> (A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year
> 
> (B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.
> 
> (C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?.
> 
> Lets see if somebody finally has it in him to at try. Thus far I have been disappointed by those that pretend to care a great deal about WI. :wink:


I guess you don't get it. Game laws change all the time. This is just another change. I do understand how people of a certain mindset don't want it but change is coming. The truth is out. When your laws are such that a person can look on their bow rack, pick any bow in their collection be it stick, compound or xbow and walk out and hunt without jumping through hoops, be any age, for any reason they want, then you'll have no exclusions. Until then it's not going to stop. Hope that clears up any confusion on your part.

Just because the purists that started archery season years ago were biased against xbows doesn't make it right. The equipment available was different then too. Lots of things and laws that people thought were right 80 years ago are gone. The no xbows law is just awaiting it's turn. And make no mistake it will get it's turn.


And by now it should be sinking in that no one cares to respond to your silly questions.


----------



## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> Thats all you got is name calling ?!! What consern is it over your in this thread , your on a DAMN island !! SO get lost Gilliagin !!


Name calling? That wasn't name calling that was illuminating your comments.


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'll ask again. Lets see if any can provide honest answers for once or if they will dance, twist, avoid, stammer, sputter or go into hiding.
> 
> 1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.
> 
> 2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow?
> 
> 3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?
> 
> 4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)
> 
> 5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question.
> 
> Now a multiple choice question.
> 
> 6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 18 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional hunters and harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below)
> 
> (A.) a change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year
> 
> (B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.
> 
> (C.) a reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?.
> 
> Lets see if somebody finally has it in him to at try. Thus far I have been disappointed by those that pretend to care a great deal about WI. :wink:


I've a better question for you Crabtree...... who's excluded? Anyone who would prefer to use a crossbow by choice or by stature... women, kids, and many who wouldn't qualify for complicated disability requirements but who have limitations on movement and people like me, except that I'm gonna qualify in a year for your state, but I couldn't take my son crossbow hunting with me... if we wanted to hunt together with crossbows.

Crossbows are a bow. That is the problem bud....


----------



## rattus58

marbowNC said:


> I know that you can put scopes on a bow , A scope for a bow is not like one on a rifle or say Xbow !! The type scope that is on Xbows pick up light , the scopes you put on a bow just has magnification . the only people that use scopes on a bow is tournament shooters , you can't hunt with that type lens (scope)!!


You are saying that you can't hunt with magnified lens on a compound bow?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Still disappointed in the lot of you. I hold out hope that one of you has what it takes to give honest answers. Why the fear of the truth? There just simple questions that policy makers in WI care about. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. :wink:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Still disappointed in the lot of you. I hold out hope that one of you has what it takes to give honest answers. Why the fear of the truth? There just simple questions that policy makers in WI care about. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. :wink:


The questions are pointless. You do not have full inclusion so what are questions or the splitting of hairs going to accomplish? And your questions are contradictory.

Here's why no one answers it...........



> 1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. *All that time crossbows have been illegal.* What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.
> 
> 
> 3.* Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?*


Please make up your mind. I know it's a lot to ask but try real hard this time.


----------



## rattus58

rattus58 said:


> You are saying that you can't hunt with magnified lens on a compound bow?


Well.... I was just just informed that there are electronic scopes by tru-glow and apex that can and are used for hunting. My my.... imagine my surprise, since I was just admonished that scopes on bows are NOT used for hunting....


----------



## rattus58

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Still disappointed in the lot of you. I hold out hope that one of you has what it takes to give honest answers. Why the fear of the truth? There just simple questions that policy makers in WI care about. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. :wink:


You too are becoming tiring. I love debate but need to have some challenge. You have not given a single reason why crossbows should not be in your archery hunting season. That it's not, is not the question. Give us one reason why a crossbow should not be in the hunting season for archery? Let's keep emotion out of it and lets keep hypotheticals out of it. 

Give me a reason that doesn't base on Bias. Give me a reason that doesn't base upon some reason relating to game, because not only are those not static, they are a dynamic. And lastly, what would happen if a compound bow shooter traded in his compound for a crossbow?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

All great questions. Answer all mine and we can talk. You can dance and avoid and spin all you want but the questions are good and make some outstanding points. Dont live in fear of the truth. 

All I am hearing is "Answer me this" and "I want" and "How come?". This me me me stuff fits perfectly with the group asking the questions and perfectly defines you all but lets make this a two way street. These questions have given you all the quivering fits for weeks. Swallow hard and man up. Than we can talk.


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'll ask again. Lets see if any can provide honest answers for once or if they will dance, twist, avoid, stammer, sputter or go into hiding.
> 
> *1.* WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs so recruitment and retention are not a proper answer.
> 
> 
> *3*. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?
> 
> *4.* Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)
> 
> *5.* Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? This is a yes or no question, not an essay question.


*1:* So you are suggesting no more bowhunters of ANY type? Are you proposing putting a CAP on bowhunting license? Have a lottery so no more hunters go afield? Wisconsin has ALL the bowhunters the WBH wants and they do not want any youth or new hunters coming into the fold? Sounds anti hunter! Recruitment & retention are not proper answers because it blows holes in your anti crossbow/anti hunter personal agenda! 

*4&5* were answered very well by your fellow WI hunter RJS who IS excluded from the Wi archery season because of the very restrictive permit requirements. I guess you missed his reply!!!



> There has been a "quiz" posted on a prior thread, I believe one of the questions was about who is excluded from bowhunting in WI. I can answer that one, ME. I have a damaged tendon in my elbow and can't shoot my regular bow. I am "injured" not "disabled", so per WI DNR rules I am out of luck unless I can heal in time for Archery season. After thinking about my situation and the WI rule of 30lb minimum draw weight, I suspect that some of the very young hunters will have trouble pulling the min. weight required also. My daughter couldn't--she is tiny. She now only gun hunts instead.
> 
> I had never given any thought to using a X-bow myself, never really had the desire to do so. But given the current situation I'm in, well.....If it means using a x-bow or not hunting, the x-bow wins every time. Unfortunately it is not an option due to current regulations.


So the WBH supports keeping a fellow injured hunter out of the woods & his daughter, a young hunter the backbone of our sport, who wants to hunt but is not physicaly able to at her age. If you lose the youngsters the hunting community may never get them back.....but I forgot you don't care about recruitment or retention. So RJS & his daughter don't count in the WBH' grand scheme!!! You should be VERY proud of that!!!

*5.* *NO*...Check the available facts from other crossbow inclusion states!! In Pennsylvania in the first year of crossbow inclusion the archery harvest went up slightly BUT the overall harvest went down. And isn't the total harvest regardless of what weapon was used the important number??

You & the WBH's anti hunter stance is not suprising. You have yours so to heck with other fellow WI hunters & youth......What a shame! So while you are spending the WBH's money this weekend meeting out of state with other anti crossbow organization you can rest assured that the *retention* of a fellow WI hunter & the *recruitment* of a young WI hunter has been squashed back at home for another year...Please brag to the P&Y, PBS & the NABC how you stood your ground against the injured & youth of Wisconsin. Then use the fellow WI hunters $$$$, who joined the WBH, to buy a round of drinks to celibrate this great trimuph!!! You will probably receive some sort of award......


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Oh! So sorry. Wrong answers. You can still earn half credit if you get em right on the 2nd attempt. 

P.S. you missed a few as well but kudos to you for being the only one of the justice league willing to try.


----------



## Jim C

marbowNC said:


> Im not hurt by what type another uses , I just think if your gonna BOW hunt , go by what you use on a hunting bow !! If you wanna use a scope then take a rifle during gun season !! When your hunting in early morning or evening with a bow it is much more difficult to see your sights , with a scope your gonna shoot until its past shooting hours !! A scope gathers light does it not ?!! using finger realease or a peep sight isnot gonna make one diffrence in low light or for that matter shooting the bow , your holding the same weight either way and you anchor the same so you don't really need a peep sight !! I recon your crossbow shooters is "training wheel shooters as well" . MOST of them are using wheels on there Xbows !!


in other words you cannot even come up with a rational reason for whining about crossbows. But you are being dishonest-your post screams that you believe its UNFAIR to you. 

Again lets see if you can actually come up with an answer that is both logical and makes sense

how are you hurt by what bow another hunter uses?


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> All great questions. Answer all mine and we can talk. You can dance and avoid and spin all you want but the questions are good and make some outstanding points. Dont live in fear of the truth.


You will never answer any questions.....the truth is lost on you & your organization. Your responces are all opinion & emotion anyway. The crossbow community will stick with the facts! They have served us well up to now & I am sure they will also in the future! Ask the hunters of Pennsylvania or Michigan how the lies & misinformation worked there!!! Your rants only serve to further discredit your position....As if that is possible!!!


----------



## Jim C

Tim50 said:


> You will never answer any questions.....the truth is lost on you & your organization. Your responces are all opinion & emotion anyway. The crossbow community will stick with the facts! They have served us well up to now & I am sure they will also in the future! Ask the hunters of Pennsylvania or Michigan how the lies & misinformation worked there!!! Your rants only serve to further discredit your position....As if that is possible!!!


we pro xbow inclusion types are very honest-we don't have to evade

my position-xbows are so similar to compounds they ought to be treated the same and that people ought to be able to do what they want as long as there is no objective harm or difference between their actions and actions that are already legal

the Antis cannot ever tell us an honest position. The bottom line is that greed and selfishness along with severe self esteem issues are the foundations of their positions but they cannot come out and tell us that so they make up BS and flimsy arguments to hide the greed and selfishness


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

The quiz awaits and to quote the "legendary" (if only in his mind) Jimc:


*"Again lets see if you can actually come up with answers that are both logical and makes sense"* :wink:


----------



## Tim50

Rancid Crabtree said:


> The quiz awaits and to quote the "legendary" (if only in his mind) Jimc:
> 
> 
> *"Again lets see if you can actually come up with answers that are both logical and makes sense"* :wink:



Typical of RC...you have to answer *HIS* quiz and he will only accept HIS answers...Just like WI hunting you can only hunt in HIS season in *HIS* woods harvesting *HIS* deer using the weapon *he & the WBH *choose for you! This is an excellent post to show just how the antis work. My woods, MY season, My deer My way!!! Fellow WI hunters RJS & his young daughter refuted RC's clain that all can hunt the WI archery season with cold hard facts. As usual RC answered with double talk. The selfishness & greed to exclude the injured & youth of WI is very clear! Great answers to RC's loaded questions. His questions were answered just not to his liking....He will how have to go to his all expense paid (by the members of the WBH) meeting this weekend and have P&Y, NABS & the PBS instruct him on what the WI hunters need to to next! It is clear the WBH MUST rely on out of state organizations to form & impliment their agenda. The WBH does not trust the WI hunter to make these decisions. So milk the WI hunters coffers of every cent you can on this meeting because the WI hunters cash cow will be drying up! The hunters will see the greed & mismanagement....and the hunters of WI will make the right decision NOT the out of state organizations that now run the WBH! Keep up the posts each one is just another nail in your elitest coffin!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Holy smokes! You have convinved yourself of a lot of hokum, nonsence and untruths. Step away from the edge there bud and try dealing in reality for once. I hope you have more in your life than coming unglued over this. This out of control rage spiral is clearly taking its toll on you. You have my pity


As I stated. I travel on my own dime this weekend. I am an invited guest. :evil5:


----------



## BigBirdVA

Unbelievable.............. you truly do not get it. This isn't about some asinine quiz you dreamed up in your futile attempt to fool people into thinking all is well. Inclusion isn't that hard of a concept. Think of it like this ....do I want to shoot a Hoyt or a Black Widow or a Excalibur? When a person can make their own choice without any other strings attached then it will be right. Your quiz doesn't make or break that concept. In fact other than game playing it accomplishes nothing - notta - zip. So save the bandwidth and lets on move on to something meaningful.


----------



## target guy

Ok, I have been following this post and some others that deal with the inclusion, or exclusion of cross bow hunting in Wisconsin. Here is my take for better or worse.
From what I have read, and I am not sure if it is all factual or not, less than 50% of current bow hunters want the inclusion of cross bows. If I look at it as strictly from a voting side, they would not be included because they are in the minority. I have read where some think there is propaganda being put forth by those who are against crossbows. That may or may not be true; again I don’t have the documents in front of me. Here is what I think is the solution.
For those that want cross bow inclusion for hunting in Wisconsin start a campaign to educate the public. Get over the 50% mark and at that time you will have a legitimate beef as to why it is not included. To ***** about it on AT will not work, you need to get to the people of the state behind what you want to change.


----------



## BigBirdVA

That's what the post is doing. One side wants to make up questions and possible loaded answers to demonstrate their side. Their responses are devoid of any factual data to back up their claims. The other has state after state coming on board, data to show same success rates and no runaway participation increases in bow season. Some of the data goes back for years. But that's not enough when you really hate something or don't want to share "your" season. The % requirement is funny but I bet had there been a vote back when compound bows were added in it would have been similar in % numbers. Change takes time. Just frustrating that it's near the end and yet some hold outs just won't let their emotional part go.


----------



## RxBowhunter

This thread has run it's course and neither side will be swaying anyone to their own. All that's coming from this thread at this point is reported posts.


----------

