# Sticky  Hoyt Draw Stop Timing (Revised)



## JAVI

For those who may be interested I have revised the much posted PP slide of the cam & 1/2 draw stop timing. I hope this addition will be easier to understand...


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## JAVI

*To make it easier to follow I am*

posting the other information in the thread as well... Hope this helps...

Hybrid Cam Sync & Timing 
By Mike Javi.... Cooper​


The timing system on the hybrid cams is somewhat different from other systems.

The cams need to be in synchronization and in draw stop timing; these are two entirely different issues but interconnected. It is possible to have the cams in sync, but not in time and visa versa. 

The string is for all practical purposes, just along for the ride, the buss cable (yoke) controls the bow, and it is used to set the axle to axle (limb) preload and takes most of the weight of the limb deflection at full draw. The control cable (slave) ties the two cams together so that they rotate at the required speeds. 

The reference marks or holes (depending on the cam) are there to provide a visual reference to cam synchronization not draw stop timing. I find that tiller is a more precise indicator of cam sync; if the limbs are bottomed out the tiller will reflect the position of the cams better than the reference holes (marks).

To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out). 

Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.

At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec. 

I double check everything and tweak a half twist here or there to fine tune it. 

Finally I use the hybrid cam creep tuning method to set the bow to my shooting style.

If you follow this method you will have a very solid wall and the bow will be practically vibration free.

A note: the regular cam & ½ should be tuned in the “D” draw length slot for best performance. You can then set the module to your required DL and tweak the DL using the string.


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## ktrazz

Great post!!!!!!!!! :beer:


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## ratfart

As usual, nice work Javi!!


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## XP35

Hey, Javi, thanks. You're a real life saver. You must be real popular with the rest of the Hoyt/Reflex guys, huh? Thanks again, because I have noone nearby who could time my Slam.5. It is now timed and synced.


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## yelk hunter

*stupid but maybe there are others*

I have to get a new string after season and have one question - 

You state that it should be tuned in the D slot yet all the Hoyt chart measurements are for C slot.

So, before I back off the string to measure AtoA +1/4, do I set it in the C slot or the D slot?

Thanks.


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## JAVI

yelk hunter said:


> I have to get a new string after season and have one question -
> 
> You state that it should be tuned in the D slot yet all the Hoyt chart measurements are for C slot.
> 
> So, before I back off the string to measure AtoA +1/4, do I set it in the C slot or the D slot?
> 
> Thanks.


If the Hoyt chart says "C" then use "C", however I find most use "D" instead...


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## yelk hunter

I see what you mean! I just looked at their charts again to make sure - I have the Xtec and it is all "C" for 2004. Again, thanks.


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## XP35

Javi, any idea what draw length setting I should be on for the Slam and a Half? I did it set at 30, the longest setting. It seemed sensible.


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## HANK120X

*all draw lengths = same a to a.*



JAVI said:


> If the Hoyt chart says "C" then use "C", however I find most use "D" instead...


draw module settings do not change axle to axle, do thay?


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## JAVI

HANK120X said:


> draw module settings do not change axle to axle, do thay?


No... but they do change the timing (slightly); and draw length.


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## JAVI

Creep or fine tuning the Hoyt Cam & ½
By Mike (Javi..) Cooper​
It is a variation on the old stand by Creep tuning methods…
With the tiller set to even (limb bolts bottomed and backed out the same on both limbs to your shooting weight) Set the timing as close as you can by eye.
I like to start with my sight zeroed at 20 yards. 
Using ½ or ¾ inch masking put a horizontal line on your 20 yard target.
Shoot 3 or 4 arrows aiming at the tape, be sure to draw only to the wall do not pull into the limbs. Only use your good shots; the bad ones don’t count.
This is where the Cam & ½ differs from the two cam bow in creep tuning. Since there is no real valley you can’t creep into it. 
Now shoot 3 or 4 more arrows at the line, while drawing your bow hard into the cams (you’re over rotating the cams just a bit) this is what most people describe as the mushy felling on the cam & 1/2. Again use only your good shots.
If your bow is in perfect time all your shots will hit the line, and the mushy feeling will be almost unnoticeable. If the shots fired while pulling hard into the cams hit high, apply a ½ twist to the control cable.
If the shots fired while pulling hard into the cams hit low apply a ½ twist to the buss cable.

Repeat until all shots hit the tape….

If you want to tune it even closer; repeat at 30 or 40 yards….


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## shoff14

Javi, 

Got a question for you that I don't understand



> A note: the regular cam & ½ should be tuned in the “D” draw length slot for best performance. You can then set the module to your required DL and tweak the DL using the string


How can you set the modules to the required DL? I thought that by changing the slot (ABCDEF) that this was what controlled your DL. So what are you talking about in that last sentence?


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## JAVI

shoff14 said:


> Javi,
> 
> Got a question for you that I don't understand
> 
> 
> 
> How can you set the modules to the required DL? I thought that by changing the slot (ABCDEF) that this was what controlled your DL. So what are you talking about in that last sentence?


The measurments for the Hoyt regular cam 1/2 i.e draw weight, axle to axle, and brace height are taken in either "C" or "D" slot... while the change isn't significant there are differences so I recommend that you "use" the slot as deginated by Hoyt (example: http://www.hoyt.com/technical/charts.tpl?page=04_ultratec.inc 2004 UltraTec w/XT2000 limbs is spec'ed to be in "D" slot of the module). Once you have the bow set to all specs and the cams in time and sync, then you change the module to the corrct draw length for you...


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## shoff14

so your saying you don't have to shoot the bow in those positions, but you need to set them up and get them in spec in those positions and then work from there? So it doesn't matter what module position you shoot in, just when you set it up and time it. Is this a correct asumption?


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## Ephrata arch

*tt*

Will this tuning method work with a darton C.P.S. cam.


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## WVbowsmith

*ttt*

we should all read this one from time to time......an absolutely awesome post by Javi. Perhaps this is the best single post ever on AT.

J


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## Bruce4

*cam timing*

Javi, when I got my new trophy bound string for my protec, I put it on and set it up via your directions above. Worked perfect. On to my excursion. If I get the timing marks set right with the control cable, when I check the draw stop, the top cam is under rotated. When I twist the buss cable to get the cam rotated, it throws the timing marks off again. If I go and retime the control cable, it throws the draw stop timing off again. Arghh, what am I doing wrong? Tiller is perfect. The bow shoots perfect bullet holes at 10 feet. I can't go outside and shoot as we have a little problem with snow here in Wisconsin right now and the targets are all froze up. Do those timing marks mean anything? I should add, I have the original floating yoke cables and string on the bow.


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## XP35

I'm no Javi, for sure, but with my XP35 with the Slam.5 cams I had to go more by brace height and ata measurements. I'm prety sure you don't have to be dead center in the holes (timing marks). I creep tuned afterward and it's shooting better than ever. Mine is not dead center over the holes, but equidistant.

If I'm wrong, Javi, please fill me in. Oh, and tell me why if you could. I'm sort of a brain-picker. :teeth:


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## die-languh

Nice Post :thumbs_up


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## Bruce4

*timing marks*

That is the problem. Mine are not equidistant from the string. One is right on the edge of the hole, and one is a good 3/16 of an inch from the hole. My protec holes are both right on the edge of the string. thanks


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## MURRAYT

*Same dilema!!*

I to, set my new VTEC up as described by you, Javi. It is great having someone like you as a resource. I re-read your instructions and continue to have the same problem as Bruce4. Timing marks are not equidistant from string when stop timing is correct. I also have original string and cables but have new ones on order from Mike here on AT so I'll be going through the procedure again. One other question... I cannot find a published spec for the VTEC. The advertisment says the ATA is 35.5. When I recieved it it was almost 36. I had to really twist to get it to 35.5 then I had the problem described above. Is 35.5 the correct spec and what is the effect if it is a little long? Say 1/16th inch?


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## JAVI

Axle to axle and brace height as published is cam/draw length specific you need to check with Hoyt; if it is not listed in their tuning charts on the Hoyt web site. Also be avised that those numbers are REFERENCE ONLY and not a number that must be reached for optimum performance. 

When I tune a bow, I'm looking for the draw length to be correct for me, the draw weight I want and that cams in time for my shooting style...

Outside of that I pay little attention to the published specs, except as reference for a starting place...


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## Steamin

Javi,
I know that this post is about the cam & 1/2, but do you have anything on the Spiral Cam?
What ever you have is appreciated, if not thanks anyway.

Steamin


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## JAVI

Steamin said:


> Javi,
> I know that this post is about the cam & 1/2, but do you have anything on the Spiral Cam?
> What ever you have is appreciated, if not thanks anyway.
> 
> Steamin


With the exception of the adjustable draw module both of the Hoyt cam & 1/2 tune exactly the same...


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## Steamin

Javi,
Thanks, I wasn't sure but felt it might be.:thumbs_up 
Steamin


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## jimg

I am also having the same problem with the timing marks being off when I set the draw stop timing. What is the answer to correct this.


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## JC FROM PHX

*new strings*

allso have strings coming from Mike Mathews coming any day 
my D L is 28.75 stooting at 29 
do I set bow on 28.5 and make string a little long or set at 29 and make 
string a little short
First time at replacing strings thank`s


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## yelk hunter

If Mike's strings for your bow are like what he did for my Xtec, they will be dead on. Follow Javi's instructions - look up hoyt chart, bottom out limbs, set cam per chart, change strings/cables, check Ato A. Mine was dead on with Mikes strings.

Then, do the Javi magic (untwist string,etc.)

Mine is SWEET!!!


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## XP35

TTT-someone needs this.........................


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## bigbucks9

was the question ever answered? the cams do not line up but the timeing is correct. or the the cams line up and the timing is off. how do you get them both correct?


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## yelk hunter

Holes vs Cam timing - I had the same problem with a friend's bow who is just getting into the sport and bought a used Magnatec. I was 'twisting the night away'. I could get the holes equal but not the sync. After some personal consultation with the guru, he confirmed my suspicions. One or all of the strings/cables are probably not exactly the correct length and this will happen on some bows. (I have not taken it apart to confirm.) 

If this is the case, you will never get equidistant from the holes and sync timing without new strings. In Javi's post above:

"When I tune a bow, I'm looking for the draw length to be correct for me, the draw weight I want and that cams in time for my shooting style"

I am reading that the cam sync is more important than timing. My friend is coming over tomorrow. I have shot the bow (3" shorter DL than me ) and wall is great, it sits dead in hand on the shot but has a buzz (vibration may be the Magnatec) but I will let my friend decide. The cables are no where near the holes!

I still believe!


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## InKYfromSD

You confused me Yelk. In the excellent description and photos above, it seems that the twisting is done in order to make the cables and string the exact length they need to be. To me, that's what the whole tuning process is about. If they need to be exactly right before you start the tuning process, then you'd have to throw them out if they ever developed any creep at all and get a replacement that's exactly the right length. I'm not implying that a grossly bad cable or string, like an inch too long or too short, can be used but the tuning process is used to tweak the minor differences between ideal and how the bow was setup before you started.

The cables on my bow each have a different number of twists in them. The control cable ended up with hardly any twist at all compared to the buss cable. It shoots perfect. With fingers it's bareshafted out to 40 yards and the bareshaft hits an inch low and to the left, just like I want it. I just wish one of the strands in the control cable wasn't broken. I'm debating leaving well enough alone and shooting it the way it is. 

Good luck with the magnatec


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## yelk hunter

Measured tonight - buss cable about 1.5" short. String and control cable each just a little long!!! Don't know where the guy that sold the bow got the strings but musta been walking sidehill when they were made. The end loops are so small you almost cannot get them on/off the posts. Gonna suggest he get new strings soon. 

When I twist up the control, it gets to the point it is almost knotted and kinked when the holes are close to correct with the buss having just a minor twist. I am choosing to keep control cable without severe twists and get as close to equidistant as I can and set AtoA. Cams are in sync but timing a little off.

Sorry for the confusion but I had it too until I confirmed measurements.


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## Archersteve

:up:


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## LEADWORKS

this info really helped me out- BUMP


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## Todzilla

*Thanks Javi*

this past weekend I used your complete tuning guide from your posts and all I can say is THANKS FOR SHARING ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE WITH US.:darkbeer: my bow has never shoot better. 
Todd


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## Struid

Hi,

The more i read the forums the more sure i get in my conclusion. So if you could help me and my mates. We all have hoyt bows whit lot's of vibration in shooting. The case is worst in my bow (hoyt lazertec).

The symptoms are in my case: Lot's of vibration and the bow tilts badly when i shoot. I have tried differnt kinds of stabilators but they don't help much.

So when i shoot my lower limb seems to finish it's work later than the higher limb and the result is that the upper end of the bow moves backways and i really don't like that.

The valley of my bow feels really bad, before pressure goes low there seems to be a little bump to more pressure and the valley is really short one. It is about 1 cm.

The bow is in factory settings now. The checked things that are explained in manual are correct.

I think this is a matter of syncronization but i am not sure. Is the case in so? And what can i do?

-Struid


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## Archersteve

Struid said:


> Hi,
> 
> The more i read the forums the more sure i get in my conclusion. So if you could help me and my mates. We all have hoyt bows whit lot's of vibration in shooting. The case is worst in my bow (hoyt lazertec).
> 
> The symptoms are in my case: Lot's of vibration and the bow tilts badly when i shoot. I have tried differnt kinds of stabilators but they don't help much.
> 
> So when i shoot my lower limb seems to finish it's work later than the higher limb and the result is that the upper end of the bow moves backways and i really don't like that.
> 
> The valley of my bow feels really bad, before pressure goes low there seems to be a little bump to more pressure and the valley is really short one. It is about 1 cm.
> 
> The bow is in factory settings now. The checked things that are explained in manual are correct.
> 
> I think this is a matter of syncronization but i am not sure. Is the case in so? And what can i do?
> 
> -Struid


Your answer is in the thread by JAVI spoken of above. It may take some time, but if you follow his directions you will find your vibration and "bump" will go away. If you have an older cam system, the same concept still applies, for all bows, set the tiller and then adjust the cams so the cables hit the flat spots on both top and bottom cams at the same time.

This is _not just a HOYT problem_, all bows have this problem. When they come out of the factory, they have them set approximately correct, but the reference marks, or wholes, or whatever the specific bow company uses, are just not the accurate. The only question is how do you fine tune the bow for best performance.

JAVI's method works very well for the Hoyt hybrid cam system. Lawler Outdoors has a pretty good article for single cam bows that you can find on their web site. Binary cam bows have there own set of rules, and I'm afraid I don't have a specifie article or site to send you to, but I do know that there is someone out there that can help. Dual cam bows are actually the easiest to adjust, so go with the idea that you adjust tiller than adjust for cams to hit cables at the same time.

Now, I am kind of giving you the short version of this. It is possible, although *very rare in todays quality bows*, that you can have tiller correct, and have cam timing correct, but the bow will be a little out of Sync. If this happens, than it means one limb is stronger than the other by quit a bit. Nothing can be done to fix this other than replacement matched limbs. But for the record, unless you are a 300 Vegas shooter, I'll bet you could not even tell, and with cam timing and tiller set the vibration will be gone.


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## cchunter

*Hoyt Cam 1/2*

Hey Javi thanks for the tips the bow shoots great now and the wall is rock solid just the way I like it.

Thanks C


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## taigo

*i can't reach the indicated drawweight*

i finally made my first set of strings and cables

i have the cam and .5 "C" with lx pro limbs: the tune charts gives me the following:

sting 62 inch; cable hcbc 51.5 inch and cable hybc 49 inch

i measured them more than once on the string jig (under a light tension), and they were right on the exact figures given in the tune charts

installed on the bow with the neccesary twists in in it, so far so good

but now the problem

i have the limbs 40 -50 lbs

with the limb bolts all the way backed IN; i only got 31 lbs on the bow scale!
thats is the maximum i get out of it, twisting the strings and cables a lot more i reached 34 lbs, 


what went wrong?

wrong numbers in the tune charts?
do i have to twist them more (already now the seemed to be overtwisted )
do i better subtract some amount of tthe measurements given in the tune charts?

please advise of the experts is really apprciated

thanks for the trouble
__________________


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## Duke12

I have been away for two months and return to see Javi still taking care of business! Go Javi


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## Archersteve

taigo said:


> i finally made my first set of strings and cables
> 
> i have the cam and .5 "C" with lx pro limbs: the tune charts gives me the following:
> 
> sting 62 inch; cable hcbc 51.5 inch and cable hybc 49 inch
> 
> i measured them more than once on the string jig (under a light tension), and they were right on the exact figures given in the tune charts
> 
> installed on the bow with the neccesary twists in in it, so far so good
> 
> but now the problem
> 
> i have the limbs 40 -50 lbs
> 
> with the limb bolts all the way backed IN; i only got 31 lbs on the bow scale!
> thats is the maximum i get out of it, twisting the strings and cables a lot more i reached 34 lbs,
> 
> 
> what went wrong?
> 
> wrong numbers in the tune charts?
> do i have to twist them more (already now the seemed to be overtwisted )
> do i better subtract some amount of tthe measurements given in the tune charts?
> 
> please advise of the experts is really apprciated
> 
> thanks for the trouble
> __________________


Have you followed the guidelines from the JAVI post? If the bow was correct before, there is a problem with what you did, but I'm not sure of what it is.

Check the axle to axle length against the charts and check the brace height. If those two things are correct, than you should have the correct draw weight.

Remember that Hoyt gives string lengths without twist in them (I sure wish they would not do that:sad: ), so you may not have made the strings the correct length, or you may need to add more twist.

Check Axle to Axle, then check brace height, and get back to us.


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## taigo

*something for the real hoyt specialists*

this is the whole story

see my post above

i have a protec with lx limbs 40-50 lbs with the accuwheel (i suppose!, the two wheels look exactly the same, only difference i see is the letter "b" (bottom) or "t" (top) engraved in it )

and in this configuration i could tune the bow in the whole range from 40 to 50 lbs with no problem! (also installed with the string and cablelenghts like mentioned in the tune charts.

then i changed the accuwheels to cam and 0.5 "C" with the string and cable lenghts indicated in the tune charts of hoyt: result i could max get 31 lbs out of the bow, and i twisted and untwisted cables and string in many different ways , but the max i can get is 31 lbs (see post above)

is this the way it is meant to be?

something for the real hoyt expert, 
javi?

nevertheless i rechanged the bow (for the time being) tot the accuwheels, so i can shoot again!


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## Archersteve

taigo said:


> this is the whole story
> 
> see my post above
> 
> i have a protec with lx limbs 40-50 lbs with the accuwheel (i suppose!, the two wheels look exactly the same, only difference i see is the letter "b" (bottom) or "t" (top) engraved in it )
> 
> and in this configuration i could tune the bow in the whole range from 40 to 50 lbs with no problem! (also installed with the string and cablelenghts like mentioned in the tune charts.
> 
> then i changed the accuwheels to cam and 0.5 "C" with the string and cable lenghts indicated in the tune charts of hoyt: result i could max get 31 lbs out of the bow, and i twisted and untwisted cables and string in many different ways , but the max i can get is 31 lbs (see post above)
> 
> is this the way it is meant to be?
> 
> something for the real hoyt expert,
> javi?
> 
> nevertheless i rechanged the bow (for the time being) tot the accuwheels, so i can shoot again!


If only JAVI can help you, PM him directly - but include the whole story for him.

Just in case you don't mind me filling in a little, cams are designed for specific limbs. Changing cam types will require different limb stiffness, no matter what brand of bow you are talking about.

Did the Hoyt charts give you limb numbers for the configuration you are trying to do?

In short, the new cams will not give you the same draw weight with the old limbs.


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## aussiesamurai

wow thanks  that made it clear and simple


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## thespyhunter

Didnt I see a printable version of this somewhere? If so , I cant find it.


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## JAVI

.


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## thespyhunter

JAVI said:


> .



Thanks JAVI :wink:


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## acal

*Javi Timing Article*

Outstanding article. 

Does this article apply to the Hoyt Trykon XL Zephyr cams ?


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## JAVI

acal said:


> Outstanding article.
> 
> Does this article apply to the Hoyt Trykon XL Zephyr cams ?


Yes... in fact to all hybrid cams with modifications... as the true Darton clones do not have a draw stop on the control wheel...


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## acal

*Javi Timing Article*

Thank you for your reply Javi.


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## Archer1eroc

*Trykon XL setup woes*

Can someone give me some advice as to what I may be doing wrong here?
I have a Trykon XL 29" 70lbs. I read Javi's setup procedure regarding cam sync and draw stop timing. Does this apply to the Zephyr cams as well? 

I followed the steps and everything seemed to be fine...I got the ATA 1/4" long and got the reference marks on the bottom cam so the bottom limb was dead center between them.

This is where I'm baffled...when I drew the bow back, the top cam was grossly under-rotated. Could I have untwisted the string "too much" initially as he said to back it off 10 twists or so? That's what I did but to get the bow to come back anywhere near normal, I had to twist up the string again and then adjust the buss and control cables.

Also, which draw stop hole should be used? I'm baffled as to why we make those initial cam sync adjustments just to then twist/untwist them to get the draw stop timing set.

One last thing...what is creep tuning?


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## Archersteve

Go back and re-read JAVI's article again. In no place does it say to center or even use the reference marks, and this is the root of your problem.

Yes, the Zepher cams work just like the spiral cams, or the cam 1.5's, except they do not have the 1.5's draw length adjustment modules. I should let JAVI try to explain, but here goes anyway.

First, the reason for untwisting and twisting is to get the A2A set. You are correct in that you could just untwist the right amount to start with, but it has proven easier for most to untwist the 10 twist and than twist back a little at a time.

Second, re-read the part about twisting and untwisting again. This is a multipart thing that when done as JAVI said will get three things right, all at one time; It gets the A2A set, it gets the brace height set, and it gets the poundage correct. Most people have problems with the bows shipping with the poundage a little high (once in a while low), the brace height not correct, and most never even notice that the A2A is off.

Do not give up, the article is near perfect if you just follow each and every step JAVI gives. Do not read into it something that is not there, like centering the reference marks. When you have "timed" it on the flat spots of the cams as indicated, you will find the reference marks are not centered, but each bow will be different.

One last thing, the draw stop holes. The outermost one gives the smallest valley and the hardest wall. That is what most of us like, but some do not. If you like a little more valley and a little softer wall, use the inner hole.

Worse comes to worse, send it to Crackers, he can do it for you, and replace the factory strings, and you will not even need to worry about how to do it.:wink:


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## Archersteve

Oh yea, creep tuning. Something that is better done with two cam bows than the hybrid and single cam bows. But if you want to know more about it, do an AT search for "creep tuning".


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## muddog

Hey! muddog in iowa here. i'm a first time user, but from what i see, i love this site. i have one question about cam 1/2. i have a 2005 vtec. my upper cam is under rotated and my brace height is about a 1/4 in. low. i still have the factory strings, should i twist to retune or should i purchase aftermarket strings and start from scratch.


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## Archersteve

muddog said:


> Hey! muddog in iowa here. i'm a first time user, but from what i see, i love this site. i have one question about cam 1/2. i have a 2005 vtec. my upper cam is under rotated and my brace height is about a 1/4 in. low. i still have the factory strings, should i twist to retune or should i purchase aftermarket strings and start from scratch.


I shot for quite a while with the factory strings, and if you don't mind re-tuning the bow fairly often the 05 strings will be ok and you can just time it per JAVI's instructions.

Still, how many shots do you have on the strings. It would be worth your time to get a set of Vapor Trail or Winners Choice or ............. and set it and forget it.


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## ck92

*untwist?*

When it says back the string off ten twists is it talking about un-twisting the string or is it talking about backing out the limb bolts? Not sure my string is twisted ten times?


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## Archersteve

ck92 said:


> When it says back the string off ten twists is it talking about un-twisting the string or is it talking about backing out the limb bolts? Not sure my string is twisted ten times?


The directions are talking about the string twist, the bow should have the limb bolts bottomed out for this tuning.

What you have found is that the bows do not come out of the factory very consistent. Normally there would be enough twist to do this. 

In your case, measure the Axel to Axel length and I'll bet you are too long. If so, jump to the next step and pretend you have already untwisted the string.:thumbs_up


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## ck92

I have installed new strings and cables (winner's choice). The ata is 3/8inch longer than spec. The bump stop and cams look to be right. It is getting 68 pounds with the limbs bottomed out (60 to 70lbs. limbs) and the draw length is short. I am a little lost at this point. The last step reads to twist the string because the bow should be long and heavy, mine is the opposite. Any help from this point would be apprieciated.


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## Archersteve

*I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying*



ck92 said:


> I have installed new strings and cables (winner's choice). The ata is 3/8inch longer than spec. The bump stop and cams look to be right. It is getting 68 pounds with the limbs bottomed out (60 to 70lbs. limbs) and the draw length is short. I am a little lost at this point. The last step reads to twist the string because the bow should be long and heavy, mine is the opposite. Any help from this point would be apprieciated.


You say the Axle to Axle it still 3/8" longer than spec. This should leave you at the 68 # draw indicated, and you should have a little shorter draw length (actual measured dl) than spec. 

If the AtA is indeed still too long, twist down both the control cable and buss cable (try about a full turn each), twist down the string two twist, and re-check the poundage, dl, and A2A. 

If the cam's are already right, twisting the cables a total of two twist between them, and then twisting the string the same number, will return it to timed.

If the twist are too much, back off a half turn on each cable and one on the string. If the twist are still not enough, add a little more twist.

Keep in mind that the A2A is the least important of the bunch. If the dl is correct, the cams timed, than reducing A2A to increase limb pre-tension, or increasing A2A to decrease limb tension, is all you need to do.

I hope this helps, get back in touch if you need more.:thumbs_up


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## hunohio

*Archersteve, maybe you can help.*

I've gone through and attempted to tune and time my bow a couple times following Javi's instructions. Each time, I've been able to get the cams right in tune, the drawstops perfect, the BH, ATA, tillers, and weight right on, BUT I always end up with the DL a half inch too long (27 1/2 instead of 27). Every time I try to go back and fix that, I end up really screwing things up and it takes me forever to get it back the way it was before trying to correct it. As it turns out, the bow was probably so out of wack that I was shooting an effective DL of 28, so being at 27 1/2 actually feels very comfortable and I don't feel I need to shorten it to shoot properly. I'm just wondering if having everything in spec except the DL creates any problems I'm not aware of.

BTW, if I were to try to shorten the DL, what would I do that wouldn't end up reducing the DW in the process, which has been part of the problem I encounterd before, and/or messing up the timing, etc.?


----------



## Archersteve

hunohio said:


> I've gone through and attempted to tune and time my bow a couple times following Javi's instructions. Each time, I've been able to get the cams right in tune, the drawstops perfect, the BH, ATA, tillers, and weight right on, BUT I always end up with the DL a half inch too long (27 1/2 instead of 27). Every time I try to go back and fix that, I end up really screwing things up and it takes me forever to get it back the way it was before trying to correct it. As it turns out, the bow was probably so out of wack that I was shooting an effective DL of 28, so being at 27 1/2 actually feels very comfortable and I don't feel I need to shorten it to shoot properly. I'm just wondering if having everything in spec except the DL creates any problems I'm not aware of.
> 
> BTW, if I were to try to shorten the DL, what would I do that wouldn't end up reducing the DW in the process, which has been part of the problem I encounterd before, and/or messing up the timing, etc.?


Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've been swamped this week at work. For starters, having the DL 1/2" too long will not impact accuracy or function of the bow at all, as long as the length fits you. In fact, it might (usually will) add a few fps to your velocity. Now, for the second part of the question.

You have me a little stumped to be honest. Without actually looking the bow over myself, my first thoughts are "are you sure of the DL - how are you measuring it?". If everything else is dead on, a half inch seems a little wacky.

One thing to remember is that specifications given by the bow companies, including Hoyt, are approximate. It is not all that uncommon for a bow to have a draw weight a couple pounds high when maxed out, or to have the A2A or dl a little off. The real issue is getting close and getting the balance. For me, my issues of importance are first, dl set correctly for me, second, cams tuned correctly, third, poundage set correctly (state hunting issues and laws that I don't want to go into), than an A2A and bh close.

If the dl is 1/2" too long, I would twist down the string a couple or three twist and see if the dl comes down enough. This will not change the cam timing at full draw, and will have no adverse impact on the performance of the bow (except drop a couple of fps), but it will change the peep and nock locations so re-sighting will be necessary. When the dl is correct, check the A2A and bh. On a parallel limb bow like the Trykons, the bh will not change very much at all. On less parallel limb bows, twisting down the string will actually increase the bh just a little. Now see what happened to the draw weight. Usually this little bit of a change will not impact it either way by very much.

REMEMBER, like you said, if the 1/2" extra length is not a problem, don't worry about it. If it is, try the above and get back to me. I often get to PM's faster than threads if I'm swamped.:thumbs_up


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## Steamin

I read and reread the original on timing and I've got a question on the tiller.
I've got my bow at the set weight that I want to shoot and the brace height is right on. My upper cam (spiral cam) is under rotated.
I've taken 2 twist out of the control cable and the cam is almost there, probably one more twist and I've got it.
The problem is that my lower limb tiller is now 1/8" longer than my top limb.
The b/h is still dead on, am I still okay or do I need to go back and twist my buss cable. I haven't checked my d/w as I'm not able to where I'm at.

Thanks Steamin


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## Archersteve

Steamin said:


> I read and reread the original on timing and I've got a question on the tiller.
> I've got my bow at the set weight that I want to shoot and the brace height is right on. My upper cam (spiral cam) is under rotated.
> I've taken 2 twist out of the control cable and the cam is almost there, probably one more twist and I've got it.
> The problem is that my lower limb tiller is now 1/8" longer than my top limb.
> The b/h is still dead on, am I still okay or do I need to go back and twist my buss cable. I haven't checked my d/w as I'm not able to where I'm at.
> 
> Thanks Steamin


If you twist the Buss Cable you will only length your draw length and it will take you backward on cam rotation.

My best advice it to set the draw stop timing when you have the tiller even, the bh dead on, the A2A close, and let the sync do what it will. I don't want to go into the physics of it, but cam sync is controlled by the same cables that control draw stop timing and draw stop timing is far more important.:thumbs_up


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## Steamin

I got it straightened out, stupid mistake on my part :brick: , everything is @ spec. I went ahead and gave the buss cable a twist to help my d/l out. The spiral cam's longest cam is only 30" and I need closer to a 31" anyway, so it's a little more comfortable now (after shooting it too short for 3 yrs.)
The cam is rotating just like it should so I'm anxious to shoot it in the morning, it's always been a sweet shooting bow -- it ought to be even better now.

Thanks
Steamin


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## Archersteve

Steamin said:


> I got it straightened out, stupid mistake on my part :brick: , everything is @ spec. I went ahead and gave the buss cable a twist to help my d/l out. The spiral cam's longest cam is only 30" and I need closer to a 31" anyway, so it's a little more comfortable now (after shooting it too short for 3 yrs.)
> The cam is rotating just like it should so I'm anxious to shoot it in the morning, it's always been a sweet shooting bow -- it ought to be even better now.
> 
> Thanks
> Steamin


You are not the first, and you will not be the last to have problems tuning a bow, any bow.

Keep in mind that most of us have only one to three bows, often with completely different designs, and we only need to tune them when we change strings or they are new. Simply stated, we don't get enough practice to get real good at it.

The directions JAVI gave are top notch, but if you skip a step or mis-understand a step, it seems that they don't work. Trust me, with very few exceptions they do, but trust me again, it is so easy to miss a step or mis-understand.

Glad to hear you got it worked out.:wink:


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## XP35

One thing I'd like to point out. With my bow starting at 1/4" over on the AtA measurement was too much. I found I needed to start at 1/8" over AtA to get it to come out dead on. This, I would guess, had to do with limb angle and deflection rate....being a parallel limbed bow. I would figure that this (1/4") is not carved in stone and can vary from one model of bow to another. Anyone else notice this??


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## Steamin

*It's a different bow!!!*

I always thought that my Super tec shot smooth, man what a difference tuning makes in a bow. 
Talk about smooth and no shock or vibration, I really always felt that those were virtually non-existent in my bow. I can say it's like shooting a different bow now.
I've got the nock height taken care of, it was high, and I was working on getting the biscuit left - right adjusted until we started getting high wind gusts this morning.

Thanks again guys :wink: 

Steamin


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## Archersteve

*Actually, you are dead on, and there is even more*



XP35 said:


> One thing I'd like to point out. With my bow starting at 1/4" over on the AtA measurement was too much. I found I needed to start at 1/8" over AtA to get it to come out dead on. This, I would guess, had to do with limb angle and deflection rate....being a parallel limbed bow. I would figure that this (1/4") is not carved in stone and can vary from one model of bow to another. Anyone else notice this??



Different cam sizes will give different results. The 1/4" is just a starting point, nothing more, nothing less.:secret:


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## Steamin

*Broadheads still to the left*

I still can't get my broadheads to group with my field points, they are consistently shooting 2" to the left.
I've tried three different arrow combo's and I get the same affect on each one. Easton's tuning chart say's that I'm overspined, but by the selector chart and the three different arrows I tried, I disagree.
I've moved the whisker bisciut towards the riser until it started affecting my field point flight, then I moved it back to the original.
I'm getting frustrated and aggravated.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Steamin


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## JAVI

Steamin said:


> I still can't get my broadheads to group with my field points, they are consistently shooting 2" to the left.
> I've tried three different arrow combo's and I get the same affect on each one. Easton's tuning chart say's that I'm overspined, but by the selector chart and the three different arrows I tried, I disagree.
> I've moved the whisker bisciut towards the riser until it started affecting my field point flight, then I moved it back to the original.
> I'm getting frustrated and aggravated.
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> Steamin


Take two turns off the limb bolts and shoot it again... if they move further apart then you are overspined... if them move closer together you are under spined...


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## ck92

*post 61*

How do you adjust the A2A? Shortening it should increase bow weight correct? Can I adjust it without throwing off the bump stop and cam timing? I have twisted and untwisted all cables and string several times. I have had the timing marks in several equal locations and then did the bump stop timing. And everytime when I check the A2A and weight it is long and a little light. I am hoping to get it right by october


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## Archersteve

ck92 said:


> How do you adjust the A2A? Shortening it should increase bow weight correct? Can I adjust it without throwing off the bump stop and cam timing? I have twisted and untwisted all cables and string several times. I have had the timing marks in several equal locations and then did the bump stop timing. And everytime when I check the A2A and weight it is long and a little light. I am hoping to get it right by october


Remember that there are so many little things that can be overlooked or that can be misunderstood. Just don't give up.

To start off with, if the draw length is a little long, but everything else is on, than you need to either twist the string a little, or untwist the buss and control cables a little (the exact same amount for each). How much twist depends on how far the draw length is off. REMEMBER, twisting the string will not change cam sync or time so this is the easiest way to do it.

Once you get the dl correct, check the weight of the bow. If you are still a little low, than twist the string one twist and twist each of the cables one half twist. This is the trick in reducing A2A without messing up all of the hard work you have already done. Each twist of the string is worth one half twist done in both cables.

Of course you probably need more than one twist, but keep the ratio of one in the string per one half in EACH cable.

Now, if you are really sharp, you will tell me that the two to one formula only works if the string is the same length as the cables, and it is not, but for only a couple of pounds this works. When you are to where you need to be, recheck dl, confirm time, verify bh is close, record your new bh and A2A so you can go back to them if needed.


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## Archersteve

Steamin said:


> I still can't get my broadheads to group with my field points, they are consistently shooting 2" to the left.
> I've tried three different arrow combo's and I get the same affect on each one. Easton's tuning chart say's that I'm overspined, but by the selector chart and the three different arrows I tried, I disagree.
> I've moved the whisker bisciut towards the riser until it started affecting my field point flight, then I moved it back to the original.
> I'm getting frustrated and aggravated.
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> Steamin


First, go get a cold epsi: and maybe a little :slice: and relax. This is not the end of the world. Many people just resight for that when they shoot their broadheads so if the worse comes to worse you can too.:thumbs_up 

Second, the one area that I and JAVI are not in complete agreement on is arrow stiffness, so understand that you may find that the answser is not so simple that it is as clear as day and night. If it were, JAVI and I would agree completly on this as well. In fact, try what JAVI suggest first; I'll explain later.

Now, I will state up front that I am of the school that believes that an arrow cannot be too stiff, if you are shooting a release and you have near decent form. I simply have tuned too many bows to the point where I can shoot "too stiff" arrows well. Currently I shoot my Trykon XL with Arrow Dynamics .395 mags, PSE Radial X-Weave, Beman ICS Hunters, and Carbon Express CXL's. The only thing I need to do is change sight tapes on my Sure Loc and my left and right stay the same. I tune my bow for perfect flight with the PSE's or ICS Hunters and I find that the fatter shafts fly just fine for 20 yards. Buy the way, I can shoot NFAA field all day and drop a broadhead on either of my PSEs or ICS's and go hunting that evening.

Compare the above list of arrows, and you will understand that there is no way that any of the CXL's or .395 mags are going to be "properly spined" (always over spined).

Now, the Easton guides (and far too many other tuning guides) are old school, and have not been updated for far far far tooooo long. The left/right issues with spine were/are absolutly true for a finger shooter. Shooting with fingers creates arrow flight dynamics that demand that the arrow spine be near perfect. So, if you shoot fingers, the directions that JAVI gave you are the best ones to start off with. And think about it, if in this case you are over spined, it takes nothing to back your bow off a couple of turns and see if the groups get worse.

I see that you have already done what I would have first suggested with the WB. Remember, if you go too far, it can give you the same results and give you a false reading. Have you tried moving the WB to the left? Also, moving the WB, or any rest, to the right/left will change the location of the impact of the field point; this is normal. The broadhead will change much faster so when the two come together you are there, and you just resight. Just what do you mean by "moved the whisker bisciut towards the riser until it started affecting my field point flight"?

This is my concern. You have not mentioned what broadhead style you are using, but I assume you are using a fixed blade. You have your bow timed and tuned correctly, and it is shooting well. Now you have started to broadhead tune and found a problem I have seen this a lot. Often moving the rest a little WILL fix the problem by micro-tuning the bow/rest. BUT, when it won't, 9 out of 10 times the problem is shooter induced torque.

Remember that the little blades on the end of the arrow are acting like wings. If the arrow is moving left/right during the release the "winged arrow" will move to a different point that the "wingless" arrow.

If it proves out that Torque is your problem, you have time to fix it. Or, than again, if you are consistent each time (many are) than you can still resight for your broadheads.:wink:


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## JAVI

*Steve*

I don’t know that we really differ that much in our theories concerning arrow spine. 

What I’ve witnessed is that most folks use the programs and/or spine charts to FIND an arrow that is correctly spined for their bow with a field tip. And there is nothing wrong with that, it works great until you slap a broadhead on the arrow… then the dynamic spine changes ad the arrow is weak, compound this with the fact that in their quest for speed many shoot an arrow that is borderline weak to begin with. Now there is no way to make the field tips and broadheads hit together without altering the flight of the arrows by moving the rest out of centershot or turning the bow down until the spine is better tuned to the broadhead. 

The few individuals who do utilize a slightly stiff arrow will have a slight differential in POI with field points and broadheads but usually it is not enough to worry about. 

My personal philosophy is to shoot a very stiff arrow for the short distances such as 50 yards and less; tuning my point weight and fletching size for the best groups at 50… then the field points and broadheads hit together… 

I also ain’t a speed freak, so I have no problem using a wrench on my limb bolts to correct any aberration in POI. 

I do utilize properly spined arrows for target shooting at distances over 50 yards as I have found accuracy to be much more critical of spine at longer distances.


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## Archersteve

I guess we do agree. Considering that I would not suggest that anyone take a hunting shot beyound 50 yards, and most not more than 25 yards (ouch), any differences do not apply.:zip: 

I still have not found that I have problems with stiff arrows not grouping or shooting left/right at distances, but than again why bother with stiff arrows in those conditions. After all, overly stiff arrows are usually associated with fat arrows and that is the last thing we want in the wind.

Still, I won the Oregon State Games in 1999 using Beman ICS 340 at only 60 lbs, and at least out to 80 yards, they were dead on.

So after saying that, I am looking into some new "distance" arrows that are thinner than my old ACC's and stronger than the ACE's that I sold on e-bay. I shoot 60 # because that is what my body handles best (a few more years on this old boy and that will probably change). The more I look, the harder it is going to be to get FOC., overall weight, small diameter, and properly spined arrows to fit my bill. 

Got any suggestions?


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## JAVI

Sometimes despite the charts and programs... a 340 might be the proper spine at 60 lbs... In fact at 29" a 340 with 100 grain point cut to 28" is a slight bit weak for my UltraTec with Spirals... and my strings. 

The charts and programs are a great place to start.. But not necessarily the end all... A different string, speed balls and many other things affect the efficiency of the bows.. and this will affect the correct arrow spine... even the length of the point or the weight of the vanes and have an effect. 
That's one reason I really like the On Target software... it allows you to calibrate from many angles, including bow efficiency


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## Archersteve

JAVI said:


> Sometimes despite the charts and programs... a 340 might be the proper spine at 60 lbs... In fact at 29" a 340 with 100 grain point cut to 28" is a slight bit weak for my UltraTec with Spirals... and my strings.
> 
> The charts and programs are a great place to start.. But not necessarily the end all... A different string, speed balls and many other things affect the efficiency of the bows.. and this will affect the correct arrow spine... even the length of the point or the weight of the vanes and have an effect.
> That's one reason I really like the On Target software... it allows you to calibrate from many angles, including bow efficiency


Good point. I guess I need to update to 'On Target'; I have been using an older software program for that purpose and I found more holes in it than a brides mesh vail (very small holes but a lot of them {LOL}).

Still, the bow I was using at the time was a Septer II with furry cams. A pretty good bow but nothing like the UltraTec with Sprials (at least for speed) and I was using the same shaft you mention but with only 85 grains at the tip. If I remember correctly, I was using Flex Fletch but I don't remember the size (right around 2" though I'm sure).


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## Steamin

Javi and Archersteve,
I'm shooting a Super tec w/ a 30.5" d/l (the cam is 30, but I tweaked the buss cable to 30.5). I'm set at 72# and I'm shooting a 29 3/4" 2317 XX78 with stinger 125 heads on the end.
I've been shooting blazers and I even tried some Easton Buckeye 340's at 28 1/2" with 4" feathers.
The feather controlled shaft was dead on with the field points, so I put some feathers on one of my 2317's and dead on with my field points as well.
I performed the walk back tuning and my vert. and horz. were/are on the money prior to starting the broadhead tuning.
I feal that I wasn't getting enough stearing on the back of the shaft and that I wasn't able to get an aggressive enough helical with my Arizona fletcher.

Archersteve -- you asked that you I meant by moving the WB till it affected my field point flight, just that -- they started impacting way to the right. So I moved the WB back and started tuning it all over again.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Steamin


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## Archersteve

Steamin said:


> Javi and Archersteve,
> I'm shooting a Super tec w/ a 30.5" d/l (the cam is 30, but I tweaked the buss cable to 30.5). I'm set at 72# and I'm shooting a 29 3/4" 2317 XX78 with stinger 125 heads on the end.
> I've been shooting blazers and I even tried some Easton Buckeye 340's at 28 1/2" with 4" feathers.
> The feather controlled shaft was dead on with the field points, so I put some feathers on one of my 2317's and dead on with my field points as well.
> I performed the walk back tuning and my vert. and horz. were/are on the money prior to starting the broadhead tuning.
> I feal that I wasn't getting enough stearing on the back of the shaft and that I wasn't able to get an aggressive enough helical with my Arizona fletcher.
> 
> Archersteve -- you asked that you I meant by moving the WB till it affected my field point flight, just that -- they started impacting way to the right. So I moved the WB back and started tuning it all over again.
> 
> Hopefully this makes sense.
> 
> Steamin


Blazers are great vanes, but they are equivalent to 4" Vanes and not feathers for stearing, at least not in my experience. Perhaps if you used a larger vane like a 4" with helical or a quickspin....... Still, having not run the arrow numbers through the system (that program and all my books are not with me this week), my gut instinct is not fletch stearing but fletch contact.

Blazers have a higher profile than most vanes (.55" verses .5" and smaller), and are so much stiffer than feathers, so you really need to check for contact. Of course you cannot just coat the fletch and shoot to confirm contact because the WB gives you a false reading. You may need to look for other ways to check for fletch contact outside of the WB. Are the vanes hitting the WB? I helped one shop with a WB where the WB had a flat side at the bottom on it instead of a full circle and the person was trying to shoot cock fletch down - the blazers were leaving a film of plastic on the metal.   

Are the blazers hitting the cable? If they are, you will wear out the cable and you don't want that, with feathers or vanes.   

All of the above conditions assume that the test you ran while tuning were close, but not perfect and that the little bit of contact was causing the problem. Still, there may be other issues.

I asked about moving the WB and field point flight because there is a big difference between the field point impact moving right and the arrow not flying well. I see that the problem was in impact, not flight.

Go back to moving your WB to the right. You will move field point impact to the right, but the movement of broadheads to the right will be much faster. When the two come together, you will need to resight the bow again - but then your done until you change something else. But if the feathers are shooting groups with both, the problem is not arrow spine and moving the WB is not likley to help.

So, first check for clearance, than move the WB. Remember that much of this thread has side tracked to discussing "too stiff". The light weight feathers will actually effectively stiffen the arrow dynamically, and the feathers provided you the best combined groups. This makes one wonder if the arrow is too week. Did you back the bow off a couple of turns as JAVI indicated? If so, what happened?


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## Steamin

I've attached a picture of what type of flight I am getting with my bow right now, (well yesterday).
The center dot was point of aim and the feather was right on, the shaft to the left was point of impact with the blazers. The bottom arrow is blazers with a T4 nock (just to see what it would do).
To answer the ? of flight with field points and the boadheads, they both have the same flight and same point of impact.
I had the same results with the buckeye 340's.
Should I still move the WB or leave it as is? 

Steamin


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## Archersteve

Steamin said:


> I've attached a picture of what type of flight I am getting with my bow right now, (well yesterday).
> The center dot was point of aim and the feather was right on, the shaft to the left was point of impact with the blazers. The bottom arrow is blazers with a T4 nock (just to see what it would do).
> To answer the ? of flight with field points and the boadheads, they both have the same flight and same point of impact.
> I had the same results with the buckeye 340's.
> Should I still move the WB or leave it as is?
> 
> Steamin


I think the problem is impact with the Blazers somewhere. The fact that the T 4's made such a major impact change, and in such a bad location, pretty much confirms it is not a stabelization problem.

I would not move the WB and to be honest, unless you hunt in a lot of rain, I'd shoot feathers and be done with it.

When all is said and done, don't fix it if it is not broken.:wink:


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## JAVI

How exactly did you tweak the buss cable to gain a 1/2" of draw?


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## Steamin

Javi,
I shouldn't say a 1/2", but I gained some noticable length by following your directions on twisting/shortening the buss cable in the tuning instructions.

I'm going to stay with feathers, @ least when shooting stingers. I just got in from shooting/trying to see if or where I was getting contact on the blazers.
I never could see or notice any contact. I'm not touching the cables upon release.
I done some shooting @ 30 yards and the feathers w/broadheads were right on the money with the field points (I shot both blazers and feathers w/points) as soon as I started shooting the blazers, with the aiming point the field point arrows, it was considerably lower on point of impact (with broadheads).

I did notice that I was applying torque to the bow and changed the grip style that I was using and noticed a difference in flight.

Thanks
Steamin


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## Six73

*Reflex Highlander Cam setup*

I have a problem with setup of my Reflex Highlander.
It buy it about 3 months later,and shoot 200-250 arrow.
I have a cam in uner rotate and i try (thanks to Javi for is post) to adjust it and now the stop timing is correct but control cable is in the reference hole but the bus cable is out of the reference hole and the draw lenght is 3/4 long.
I think the the control cable is short because it has only two turn but the bus cable has many turn.
I set draw lenght 28 and i decrease draw weight from 70lbs to 65lbs.
For the setup i must put the bow to the high draw weight and at the maximum draw lenght?
I made same mistake in the tuning sequence?

Thanks

Simone


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## JAVI

Six73 said:


> I have a problem with setup of my Reflex Highlander.
> It buy it about 3 months later,and shoot 200-250 arrow.
> I have a cam in uner rotate and i try (thanks to Javi for is post) to adjust it and now the stop timing is correct but control cable is in the reference hole but the bus cable is out of the reference hole and the draw lenght is 3/4 long.
> I think the the control cable is short because it has only two turn but the bus cable has many turn.
> I set draw lenght 28 and i decrease draw weight from 70lbs to 65lbs.
> For the setup i must put the bow to the high draw weight and at the maximum draw lenght?
> I made same mistake in the tuning sequence?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Simone


Cams are not in synchronization… This is the primary step… it must be done…


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## Archersteve

Ditto JAVI.

Remember Six73 that every step is important and that they must be followed in sequence.

Remember also that you knew enough to see that there was a problem and you knew enough to ask the question. You will be able to figure it out without problems. Just go back to step one and start over.


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## Six73

*Cam Setup*

Thanks a lot,today put my bow in press and synchronize the cam.


----------



## Viper04

*Thank You*

Thanks so much. I spent the day tuning my vipertec and now I'm shooting a new bow. Reduced the sound and hand shock and now the back wall feels amazing.


----------



## acal

*Hoyt Draw Stop Timing*

I am going to tune my Trykon XL with the 2.0 cam (27" draw)per Javi's directions

I have had my form critiqued and everything seems to be fine. I may blow one aspect of it like punching the trigger, but nothing consistently wrong. My problem is that I shoot a terrific group of 3-4 arrows and get an unexplainable flyers. 

I talked with Hoyt today and to make a long story short, the rep seemed to depart from the norm, shall we say, leaving me wondering.

1. I need to know if the sticky on the Cam and 1/2 by Javi applies to the Zephyer cam ?

2. How is draw length determined, from the deepest part of the throat to the string, or is an additional measurement added on ?

3. The rep also indicated that the lower draw stop should contact the cable at full draw, and the top cam stop shortly after ????????

4. The rep also indicated that tuning via the cables/string can be accomplished without bottoming out the limbs????????????


When ordering new strings and cables, should they be ordered at the length that is indicated in the specification table for my bow, or should they be ordered longer and then twisted to length ?

Thank you for the help.


----------



## Nabob

*Hoyt Draw Stop Timing*

ACAL
I am very curious because i just ordered a TRykon Xl at 27" DL.
Is your Trykon coming up short?? 
Thanks


----------



## acal

*Trykon XL*

Nabob check your PM


I just replaced the original buss cable and found that the bow was nowhere near being tuned when it came from the factory. Twisted the buss and control cables and everything seems to be ok. ATA is fine, cam sync. is set, draw length is set. I am going to shoot it tomorrow, and hopefully all will be well.


----------



## Archersteve

acal said:


> I am going to tune my Trykon XL with the 2.0 cam (27" draw)per Javi's directions
> 
> I have had my form critiqued and everything seems to be fine. I may blow one aspect of it like punching the trigger, but nothing consistently wrong. My problem is that I shoot a terrific group of 3-4 arrows and get an unexplainable flyers.
> 
> I talked with Hoyt today and to make a long story short, the rep seemed to depart from the norm, shall we say, leaving me wondering.
> 
> 1. I need to know if the sticky on the Cam and 1/2 by Javi applies to the Zephyer cam ?
> 
> 2. How is draw length determined, from the deepest part of the throat to the string, or is an additional measurement added on ?
> 
> 3. The rep also indicated that the lower draw stop should contact the cable at full draw, and the top cam stop shortly after ????????
> 
> 4. The rep also indicated that tuning via the cables/string can be accomplished without bottoming out the limbs????????????
> 
> 
> When ordering new strings and cables, should they be ordered at the length that is indicated in the specification table for my bow, or should they be ordered longer and then twisted to length ?
> 
> Thank you for the help.


Let me try to help a little. It is unfortunate that you got a Hoyt Rep that was perhaps not quite up to Par. So, lets get started.

"I need to know if the sticky on the Cam and 1/2 by Javi applies to the Zephyer cam ?" Yes, the sticky works for the Zephyer as well, but note the comments on the Spiral Cam. The Spiral Cam and Zephyer are tuned the same, and the only real difference between the sprial and cam 1.5 is that the spiral is not draw length adjustable.

"How is draw length determined, from the deepest part of the throat to the string, or is an additional measurement added on?" The answer to your question is YES. OK, I guess this did not help much did it. The actual draw length is measured from the string to the deepest part of the grip, but the AMO draw length takes this measurement and adds 1-3/4" to the actual. You buy the bow using AMO measurements, so if you shoot a 27" draw length, the measured distance should be (27" - 1.75" = 25.25")

"The rep also indicated that the lower draw stop should contact the cable at full draw, and the top cam stop shortly after ????????" This one is a matter of feel. If you do this, it will indeed work, but you will find the wall a bit on the soft side (at least for my taste). Crackers has been known to tune it with the top draw stop coming in contact slightly first. JAVI and I find that having the two come in contact at the same time yields the firmest, most repeatable feel. In reality, it is a matter of taste.

"The rep also indicated that tuning via the cables/string can be accomplished without bottoming out the limbs????????????" This is true, but the reason for bottoming out the cams is to get the cams sync'ed first. There are alternate ways to get the results that you get with JAVI's method (actually I use my own alternate way) but if you follow his method it solves all of the tuning issues in the process of tuning the bow.

"When ordering new strings and cables, should they be ordered at the length that is indicated in the specification table for my bow, or should they be ordered longer and then twisted to length ?" That depends on who you are ordering them from and how you state this, but I would call, say for sake of argument, Vapor Trail. I would then say, Hey, I have a HOYT Trykon XL that I need to put new strings and cables on. I would than say the specifications table for my bow say the following. Done that way, there is no question about what you are asking for. All of the custom string makers will have the knowledge of how the bow company in question is making the strings (some list twisted length and some un-twisted length).

I hope this helps, but remember, the reason JAVI uses the method he does is because it gets A2A, Brace Height, Cam sync, and cam tuning set correctly in one shot. If we find that A2A and Brace height are already correct (something that is actually measured with limbs bottomed out), than we can skip some steps.

My best advice is to follow his steps line by line.


----------



## murster 67

This may be a silly question, but after you have set the timing and sync. up in position C for your cam and 1/2 should you tweak it when you change your draw length to position D or is the difference unnoticeable?
Thanks in advance


----------



## Archersteve

murster 67 said:


> This may be a silly question, but after you have set the timing and sync. up in position C for your cam and 1/2 should you tweak it when you change your draw length to position D or is the difference unnoticeable?
> Thanks in advance


Good question, and generally, you will not notice a difference. The reason for using the "C" position is for the BH and A2A which are measured in this position.

If the cams seem out of time, you may need to twist a cable 1/2 turn, but I have never seen this, and only heard it once (remember to believe only half of what you see and ....... oh never mind).:wink:


----------



## lakertaker40

*cam time*

JAVI thanks for the info worked on my TRYCON XL like a charm holds twice as steady now ata's on the money and so is my tiller Thanks again:thumb: :whoo:


----------



## DDaily

Javi, 
I started to set my bow with your instuctions and have a question. If I let the 10 twist out of the string then twist the buss cable to get the 1/4" longer ATA and twist the contol cable to sync the cams. Then if I start twisting the buss cable to set the draw stops does this not just screw up what I just did sync the cams?
One more question when you are setting the sync with the contol cable you are keeping tiller even and not looking at cam marks correct?


----------



## JAVI

DDaily said:


> Javi,
> I started to set my bow with your instuctions and have a question. If I let the 10 twist out of the string then twist the buss cable to get the 1/4" longer ATA and twist the contol cable to sync the cams. Then if I start twisting the buss cable to set the draw stops does this not just screw up what I just did sync the cams?
> One more question when you are setting the sync with the contol cable you are keeping tiller even and not looking at cam marks correct?


The only reason to untwist the string is to make sure it isn't influencing the cam rotation and limb load... 

And yes you are playing a balancing game between cam sync and cam timing.. If everything else is correct the marks will come into line as well... but I don't judge by them... they like the A2A and Brace are just for reference... 

In the end you want the cam timing. sync, draw length and draw weight correct... with the proper load on the string and cables this will produce the smoothest shooting setup...


----------



## theTarget

*maybe simple question*

Hello, 
I am from Germany and my English is not very good.
So I have a question about your post.
You write: "If limbs are bottomed out". What does this mean?
Does it mean to set the bow to its higest drawing weight?
Screw in the limb bolts completely?


----------



## JAVI

theTarget said:


> Hello,
> I am from Germany and my English is not very good.
> So I have a question about your post.
> You write: "If limbs are bottomed out". What does this mean?
> Does it mean to set the bow to its higest drawing weight?
> Screw in the limb bolts completely?


Yes...


----------



## TradTech

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the info regarding sync and timing the cam & 1/2.

Great solid wall!

Really says something when it all comes together, sight in the fp's and the bh's hit the identical spot the fp's do. After getting the cams in sync and timed, paper tuned bare shaft and bingo, bullet hole. Group tune was a breeze with a minimal move on the nock set to bring the bh up to the fp poi. The ultratec hasn't shot this well....ever.

Thanks Javi


----------



## wildthingdownun

*Help required*

Hi I 'm new to this site and was wanting to ask a question about this post.

I have a reflex timberwolf 2005 model I have just replaced my cables and string with a full set of winners chioce. I have made sure length of cables and strings were the same before fitting. I have made sure as at the start of this thread the timing is correct. Reference marks line up with cables. In fact everything looks like its normal.
The only thing is my bow sounds noisy compared to before. The noise sounds like its coming from around the top cam, and its kind a like low pitch metal sound.This noise only happens once arrow is released not on draw back.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me it would be muchly apreciated.


----------



## StevenB-NC

*silly newbie question, but......*

Will adjusting the draw length module and/or changing the draw weight of the bow from full tiller and 'D' hole setting cause the draw stop timing to change? After reading this thread, I looked at my UltraSport's timing and noticed the top cam was under-rotated according to the pictures supplied; Yet when I asked my pro shop about this, he drew the bow back, quickly looked at both cams and said everything looked fine to him. (I think he was looking at cam synch only.) I recently significantly changed the draw weight, (from 40# to 57# - limbs are rated 50#- 60#) and the hand shock was horrendous. It previously didn't seem to have ANY. Pro shop suggested backing down on the draw weight a little (its at 54# now), and that seemed to help it some, as maybe did another stabilizer, but its still there and still quite noticeable. 
I guess I'm wondering if the thing IS in time, it just doesn't look it because its not at max draw weight and the draw length module isn't in the 'D' hole; and if it IS out of time, would it explain the hand and arm numbing shock it developed?Thanks for any help.


----------



## danbear

*??????*

javi and/or steve,

i recently put new strings on my trykon xl. has a 29' draw, 50-60lb limbs. here's my dilemna... It vibrates bad. now i got as far as having it a 1/4" longer for the axle to axle, but how do I know that the cams are out if time. what do I reference on the cam for this bow to know that they are out of wack. the 2 lines on the bottom cam are the only thing i can see and when the bow is at rest it is right in the middle of the lines. I've been told to follow your setup for this but I get confused as to where to look on this cam . now which way do I go to lets say if it is over rotated?? do I use the buss or the control. I have to do this myself so it is hard to tell. if I have my wife help me i suppose I'll need pics of the actual cams that I use for her to understand what I am doing. I took it to an archery shop but he doesn't deal with hoyts that much and really didn't know what to do. any advice would be super help.

thanks,

Dan


----------



## Archersteve

wildthingdownun said:


> Hi I 'm new to this site and was wanting to ask a question about this post.
> 
> I have a reflex timberwolf 2005 model I have just replaced my cables and string with a full set of winners chioce. I have made sure length of cables and strings were the same before fitting. I have made sure as at the start of this thread the timing is correct. Reference marks line up with cables. In fact everything looks like its normal.
> The only thing is my bow sounds noisy compared to before. The noise sounds like its coming from around the top cam, and its kind a like low pitch metal sound.This noise only happens once arrow is released not on draw back.
> 
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me it would be muchly apreciated.


There could be a lot of reasons, so I can't tell you that "this or that" will solve your problem.

First, if it seems to be from one cam, it sounds like maybe you have a loose e-clip on the axel. Perhaps a worn or missing cam spacer. Shooting a bow with a missing or loose e-clip is a very bad thing, so check it out right now.

Second, if the above did not solve the problem, have a friend stand near but off the side and listen to the shot. Do not thell them what you are hearing, but ask them what "they" hear. Sometimmes we hear things that are confused because of the way sounds moves around our bodies. It is possible that the sound is coming from a rest, a loose peep insert (Super Peep), etc., and you are hearing the location incorrectly.

Third, keeping the cable and strings the same length is almost impossible. A single half twist will not change you length enough to measure, but makes a huge difference in timing and sync. If all of the above checks out, start with JAVI's method and start over.

Last, and perhaps this should have been third, what string material did you take off and what material did you put on? If the noise is coming from the whole bow, and you changed from one string material to another, this might be the nature of the new string material. No, this should have been last, it is not very likley.


----------



## Archersteve

If you changed the draw weight by turning the top and bottom limb bolts exactly the same, you would not have changed timing or sync. Only a slight change would have occured on brace height and 'axel to axel'. You could measure a change in tiller, but it will not be unbalanced. Now, how exactly were your limb bolts turned?

My guess is that your Pro Shop is either not really "pros" or they are giving you the cold shoulder. "horrendous" hand shock on a properly tuned cam 1.5 and the other HOYT cams derived from it is never normal. If the bow was properly tuned, it most assuradly would not be "horrendous". Here is what I think is happening.

At lower poundage, the bow is developing less potential energy. As you increase the draw weight, the increase in potential energy must be released to the arrow in kenetic energy and to the air as vibration. If the bow is not tuned correctly, the vibration will become quite noticable, and even "horrendous". At the lower poundage, the vibration is still there, but is proportionally less.

Take the bow to another "Pro Shop". At least, take it to another tech in the local "pro shop" and try to get him to do it right.

Of course, you can learn to tune it yourself. Now you know the reason so many of us do our own. JAVI's method is a great method to follow.




StevenB-NC said:


> Will adjusting the draw length module and/or changing the draw weight of the bow from full tiller and 'D' hole setting cause the draw stop timing to change? After reading this thread, I looked at my UltraSport's timing and noticed the top cam was under-rotated according to the pictures supplied; Yet when I asked my pro shop about this, he drew the bow back, quickly looked at both cams and said everything looked fine to him. (I think he was looking at cam synch only.) I recently significantly changed the draw weight, (from 40# to 57# - limbs are rated 50#- 60#) and the hand shock was horrendous. It previously didn't seem to have ANY. Pro shop suggested backing down on the draw weight a little (its at 54# now), and that seemed to help it some, as maybe did another stabilizer, but its still there and still quite noticeable.
> I guess I'm wondering if the thing IS in time, it just doesn't look it because its not at max draw weight and the draw length module isn't in the 'D' hole; and if it IS out of time, would it explain the hand and arm numbing shock it developed?Thanks for any help.


----------



## Archersteve

*Sorry it took so long to respond, I was out hunting last week*

I am quite sure that the bow is not tuned now. This is quite common with new strings. Did you know that you cannot measure the difference a single half turn makes on the string length, but it makes a huge difference in timing.

My best advice is to go back to page one, post #1, of this thread, and print out the pictures. Than go down a couple of post to were JAVI gives his directions.

Start with step one, follow it step by step, and it will come together for you. Remember also that the brace height, axle to axle, draw weight, do not need to be exact. You can get them that way, but for a new tuner, it is not really necessary.

As for "how do I know that the cams are out if time?", the pictures show this pretty well, but to help out a little, the cables at full draw contact a "flat" spot on the top and bottom cams. Look for this cam spot or lobe and see if the cables are touching the flat spots at the same exact time. In addition, Hoyt has the cable stop post on the bottom cam (I think it is the bottom, my bow is not in front of me:embara: ), this should touch the cable at the same time both cables touch the flat spots on the cams (touching a little early actually gives you a more "solid" wall, but I try to get it to touch at the same time to perserve sync).

It really is not as tough is it first looks. You and your wife will have this down in no time.:wink: 



danbear said:


> javi and/or steve,
> 
> i recently put new strings on my trykon xl. has a 29' draw, 50-60lb limbs. here's my dilemna... It vibrates bad. now i got as far as having it a 1/4" longer for the axle to axle, but how do I know that the cams are out if time. what do I reference on the cam for this bow to know that they are out of wack. the 2 lines on the bottom cam are the only thing i can see and when the bow is at rest it is right in the middle of the lines. I've been told to follow your setup for this but I get confused as to where to look on this cam . now which way do I go to lets say if it is over rotated?? do I use the buss or the control. I have to do this myself so it is hard to tell. if I have my wife help me i suppose I'll need pics of the actual cams that I use for her to understand what I am doing. I took it to an archery shop but he doesn't deal with hoyts that much and really didn't know what to do. any advice would be super help.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dan


----------



## wihunter402

Thanks to both Javi and Steve. This worked great for me. I built a crank board and tuned my Trykon, 2 xTec's and an MT Sport. I must say that these bows are shooting better than my proshop EVER had them shooting. EVERYTHING seems so much more solid. I will never again be a slave to the proshop.


----------



## keith.richburg

*Help Javi!*



JAVI said:


> posting the other information in the thread as well... Hope this helps...
> 
> Hybrid Cam Sync & Timing
> By Mike Javi.... Cooper​
> 
> 
> The timing system on the hybrid cams is somewhat different from other systems.
> 
> The cams need to be in synchronization and in draw stop timing; these are two entirely different issues but interconnected. It is possible to have the cams in sync, but not in time and visa versa.
> 
> The string is for all practical purposes, just along for the ride, the buss cable (yoke) controls the bow, and it is used to set the axle to axle (limb) preload and takes most of the weight of the limb deflection at full draw. The control cable (slave) ties the two cams together so that they rotate at the required speeds.
> 
> The reference marks or holes (depending on the cam) are there to provide a visual reference to cam synchronization not draw stop timing. I find that tiller is a more precise indicator of cam sync; if the limbs are bottomed out the tiller will reflect the position of the cams better than the reference holes (marks).
> 
> To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out).
> 
> Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.
> 
> At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec.
> 
> I double check everything and tweak a half twist here or there to fine tune it.
> 
> Finally I use the hybrid cam creep tuning method to set the bow to my shooting style.
> 
> If you follow this method you will have a very solid wall and the bow will be practically vibration free.
> 
> A note: the regular cam & ½ should be tuned in the “D” draw length slot for best performance. You can then set the module to your required DL and tweak the DL using the string.


Javi, I'm having a little trouble understanding all of this. Does this method work the same fro the new Trykon w/ Zepher cams? B/C there is a draw stop at each cam. Is there any thing you need to do different on the Trykon? Thanks Keith


----------



## JAVI

keith.richburg said:


> Javi, I'm having a little trouble understanding all of this. Does this method work the same fro the new Trykon w/ Zepher cams? B/C there is a draw stop at each cam. Is there any thing you need to do different on the Trykon? Thanks Keith


Yes... and the only thing is you can't get the 1/4" on the parallel limbs..


----------



## keith.richburg

Javi, Thanks for the reply! I'm still kind of unsure on something though: When I'm checking cam timing on my 06 Trykon with the Zepher cams, I'm wathing to make sure that both black draw stops roll over and touch the cable at the same time, right? If that is the case, mine seems to be under rotated b/c the bottom cam draw stop touches before the top one does. In that case I would need to put a twist in the buss cable(shorten) or take a twist out of the control cable(lenghten), correct?


----------



## JAVI

keith.richburg said:


> Javi, Thanks for the reply! I'm still kind of unsure on something though: When I'm checking cam timing on my 06 Trykon with the Zepher cams, I'm wathing to make sure that both black draw stops roll over and touch the cable at the same time, right? If that is the case, mine seems to be under rotated b/c the bottom cam draw stop touches before the top one does. In that case I would need to put a twist in the buss cable(shorten) or take a twist out of the control cable(lenghten), correct?


Yes...


----------



## keith.richburg

Thanks Javi!


----------



## keith.richburg

Javi, OK draw stop timing is dead on! Cam syn is dead on! Tiller is dead on! The Hoyt tune chart shows axle to axle at 32 1/8". On side is dead on at 32 1/8" the other is at 32 3/16". I have winners choice strings on this bow. What do I need to do to fix this problem?


----------



## TradTech

Javi - Tow weeks ago my Ultratec was spot on after following your directions. I noticed two days ago that I had a strand on my buss cable broken.

New cables made and installed.

I see now that my cables aren't equaldistance to the reference holes.

I set the module in the D setting per Hoyt's tuning chart. Following your directions I Untwisted the string, Twisted the buss to achieve ATA, timed the cams so the bottom and top cam hit exactly the same time. The wall is solid. 

Now the tiller and BH are higher by 1/4" than they were prior to putting on the new cables and the cables aren't exactly equaldistance as they were prior to the new cables.

I've basicly taken all twists out of the cables and re-twisted to bring everything back, but still seeing a discrepancy in tiller, BH, and the reference holes.

What am I missing???? What should I re-do?

Very confused at this point.


----------



## JAVI

You probably need to start over...

when you twist or un twist do it 1 twist at a time... even a 1/2 twist can move thing a bunch...

And don't forget to measure draw length and draw weight during the process. The job isn't complete until you have Draw length, draw weight, cam sync and draw stop timing correct.


----------



## john kristian

*Thanks. Chasing out the ghosts in the machine...*

To all on this post, and esp. Javi,

Just saying thanks for making archery completely addicting, rather than just consuming. What is really great is that after this post I have the beginings of what it may take to understand how this bow of mine actually works. I can shoot pretty well, OK enough to whack deer, but it will be alot more fun when I can really sense how the bow is working as well as I can sense how my hand, for example, is working.

Thanks for the significant contributions. 

JK


----------



## chryd

Hi folks.

I have 2006 UltraTec, Cam 1/2, 65% let off. I noticed recently that the drawlength was about 3/4" longer than spec, so I set out to do Javi's tuning method. I've done this before on my old bow, so I'm happy doing this. However I'm not sure I've done it right this time...

I backed 10 twists off the string, adjusted the bus cable to get the A-to-A to be 1/4" longer than spec and adjusted the control cable to get the tiller even. I seemed to get that spot on. At this point the cables were directly over the reference holes.

Next I adjusted the control cable 1 or 2 turns to get the draw stops to be in time. Again this seemed to go ok (tiller was now a fraction out, but only a fraction). The cables were still over the reference holes.

Now, at this point Javi says that the draw length should be long (in his printable instructions he says 1/4" long) and the draw weight should be higher than spec.
This is where it starts to go wrong for me  The draw length was about 1/2" to 3/4" long and the weight was 2-3 pounds *under* spec. 

I put a couple of twists on both cables to shorten the A-to-A (which was longer than spec still) which got the draw weight back to spec without affecting the tiller (still almost even), draw stop timing, or draw length (still 1/2" to 3/4") long.

Now, I twisted up the string to get the draw length back to spec. However, I had to put quite a lot of twists on the string and the cams look like they are over-rotated, I mean both cams are rotated in towards the bow more than they should be (compared to my old Ultratec), *not* the draw stop timing.

At this point the bus cable is 1/4" to 1/2" inch away from its reference hole (tiller still even) and the bracing height is higher than spec and the A-to-A is a 1/16" too long.

So, any ideas where I might have gone wrong? :embara: 

I'm shooting low let off modules (65%) - are there different cams for different let of modules or do both the high and low let off modules use the same cam? and could that be wrong?

Also, should the draw length be measured when the draw stops are just touching the cables, or when the bow is pulled hard into the wall (makes about 1/4" difference to draw length)?

Thanks for any help (and the great instructions Javi!)
Chris .


----------



## GlennMac

Hi fellows, first time posting here, I'm going through putting on new strings on my ultra-tec I have been following the the thread and have a question for you guys I have done everything so far it says up to checking tiller , mine is out and don't know which strings need twisting ? My tiller is bigger on the top. Any help? Glenn


----------



## acal

*Hoyt Trykon*

Am I correct with the understanding that you can lengthen the control cable and this would put the nock in an upward travel upon release and the opposite when it is shortened ?

Thanks much for the reply.


----------



## -bowfreak-

Javi,

This is a great post. Is this a Power Point file? If so I would love to have a copy if that is possible.


----------



## ymanarchery

Has anyone worked with tuning the C2 cams yet?Would it be just like tuning spirals?
Yman


----------



## theTarget

Hello Javi,

how do you set the draw weight before you start the whole procedure?
I have a Hoyt Protec with 50 - 60 lbs. Do I have to set it to the maximum
of 60 lbs before I start?
Because after the procedure you set the draw weight again to some 
reference (the maximum of 60 lbs)?

Thanks


----------



## JAVI

theTarget said:


> Hello Javi,
> 
> how do you set the draw weight before you start the whole procedure?
> I have a Hoyt Protec with 50 - 60 lbs. Do I have to set it to the maximum
> of 60 lbs before I start?
> Because after the procedure you set the draw weight again to some
> reference (the maximum of 60 lbs)?
> 
> Thanks


I check the draw weight with the limbs bottomed... this id how the proceedure is done with the limbs bottomed out... So yep if your goal is 60 lbs and you have limbs which produce 60 pounds...


----------



## Archersteve

ymanarchery said:


> Has anyone worked with tuning the C2 cams yet?Would it be just like tuning spirals?
> Yman


Sorry, I've looked them over but have not played with them yet. Still, they should be the same as the spirals, with some change on the whole reference hole thing. (Not sure about having a reference hole, you might need to check that out).


----------



## SzaboZ

*Vector*

Hello!

Maybe a silly question... There are no reference marks on the upper vector cam. How to tune it? Just eyeball the holes with the other one?


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## Archersteve

SzaboZ said:


> Hello!
> 
> Maybe a silly question... There are no reference marks on the upper vector cam. How to tune it? Just eyeball the holes with the other one?


Not a silly question at all. Yes, the initial reference using the holes is close enough. If you bottom out the limbs, and then follow all other steps as previously given, than you will be just fine.


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## SzaboZ

Archersteve said:


> Not a silly question at all. Yes, the initial reference using the holes is close enough. If you bottom out the limbs, and then follow all other steps as previously given, than you will be just fine.


Thanks Steve!


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## spiralcamer

I tried tuning my 05 Protec today by this method. When I started the ATA was 41.30, Hoyt tune chart reads ATA is 41.00. I relaxed the string and began twisting up buss cable to acheive 41.25 While also untwisting control cable to try to keep timing close. I never acheived 41.25 ATA because I had the control cable completly untwisted. The buss cable is about .25 past the timing hole and the control cable is in the center of timing hole on top cam. Any ideas? I think I need a longer control cable. Thanks.


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## pyroarch57

spiralcamer said:


> I tried tuning my 05 Protec today by this method. When I started the ATA was 41.30, Hoyt tune chart reads ATA is 41.00. I relaxed the string and began twisting up buss cable to acheive 41.25 While also untwisting control cable to try to keep timing close. I never acheived 41.25 ATA because I had the control cable completly untwisted. The buss cable is about .25 past the timing hole and the control cable is in the center of timing hole on top cam. Any ideas? I think I need a longer control cable. Thanks.


You should be twisting the control cable to keep cams in time, not untwisting.


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## spiralcamer

*Pryroarch57*

Thanks for the reply. I will try again tomorrow.


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## RobJon

Hi Javi and Steve, I started to tune my Powertec following the directions supplied. When I bottom out the limbs and check the tiller I have between 4-5mm bigger measurement on the upper limb, is this normal or is there a way to adjust for this before I start tuning. And on a side note I would just like to say I am new to this and for anybody else that is new to be very careful when replacing stings and cables, yesterday as I put tesion back on the bow I didn't notice that the lower part of the Buss cabe was out of its groove and as I drew it back it popped off, I got a pretty good punch in the head and a pair of bent glasses. :embara: :set1_punch:


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## JAVI

RobJon said:


> Hi Javi and Steve, I started to tune my Powertec following the directions supplied. When I bottom out the limbs and check the tiller I have between 4-5mm bigger measurement on the upper limb, is this normal or is there a way to adjust for this before I start tuning. And on a side note I would just like to say I am new to this and for anybody else that is new to be very careful when replacing stings and cables, yesterday as I put tesion back on the bow I didn't notice that the lower part of the Buss cabe was out of its groove and as I drew it back it popped off, I got a pretty good punch in the head and a pair of bent glasses. :embara: :set1_punch:


OUCH...

The point of checking the tiller with the limbs bottomed out is to determine if the cams are in rotational synchronization. If the measurement is not the same +/- 1 mm, it means the cams are not in sync and should be made so.


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## RobJon

I think I get it now, I backed off the string so it would have no effect(only along for the ride) but I didn't sync the Cams with the control cable. I did however go onto complete the drawstop timing but I guess it's not really in tune. Oh well back to the drawing board as they say. By the way I did pull the axles and inspected the bow after the incident. Thanks for your help!


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## RobJon

Thats it! Got home from work tried it all again and dialed her in, the closest I could get the tiller was +/- 2mm so thats the way she's going to stay. Thanks for your help.


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## AKRuss

Pardon my ignorance but I'm new to tuning cables and strings. It seems to me that centering the cables in the reference holes of Cam 1/2s would ensure the cams are in sync whether at brace or draw. How could the cams be in sync at brace and then be out of sync when at draw? Are you suggesting you start at the reference holes and then tune while at full draw to perfect synchronization? Are there books, videos or classes on this stuff? I'm looking for the light!!!


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## Bushy402

JAVI said:


> I check the draw weight with the limbs bottomed... this id how the proceedure is done with the limbs bottomed out... So yep if your goal is 60 lbs and you have limbs which produce 60 pounds...



What if my goal was 50 or 55 then what? do I still max it out then adjust it after tuning?


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## wblackfin

UltratecUser said:


> What if my goal was 50 or 55 then what? do I still max it out then adjust it after tuning?



My understanding of the method is that the tuning procedure is done with the limbs bottomed out. With the limbs bottomed out the tiller will be even when you get the cams in sync. Once everything is set to specs , you can back off the limbs equally to achieve the draw weight you want to shoot at. In other words if your bow is speced for a 50 to 60lb draw, part of the tuning procedure is to achieve a 60lb DW with the limbs bottomed out. Once it is tuned then back off to your desired shooting DW.
Those of you who have been doing this for a long time please correct me if I am miss stating things.


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## Ed Bock

*Cable Twist - Draw Length Change*

- is the Hybrid Cam different - I was always under the assumption (mistaken) that twisting cables (shortening) led to an increase in draw length. In this case, seems that twisting the control cable decreases draw length , while twisting the buss cable does increase the draw length.


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## theTarget

Twisting the Buss (yoke) cable you will increase the draw length and increase the draw weight.
Twisting the control cable will shorten the draw length and decrease the draw weight.

correct me, Javi, if I'm wrong ...


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## nippon1

*Is this the right way*

I`ve bought lazertec and found out it wasn`t in tune. Reference holes were good but in fulldraw upper cam is under rotated. I have se more twist to buss but it makes the cams go out of sync. Untwisting control cable seems to help but soon there is no twist at all. I have read the original post quite a few times but due my not so perfect english skills it is possible that I miss understood something. So am I doing it right?

One man in local archery club told me that he adjust timing only in fulldraw. Is that right way or should I also look the reference holes as they say in bow manual? I think there is no professional dealer or proshop so please help me.


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## AdamG

Im gonna have to say that I shoulda read this post the day I got my XTec! It took me a while the other night, twisting and untwisting, but I got my bow back to the correct ATA measurement(according to the Hoyt tune charts), got the draw-stop timing in good(not sure if its perfect but Im new at this), and finally got to shoot it today....wow!

Little to no hand-shock and it was grouping better than ever out to 50yds. The arrows even looked a little faster, but it may have been just me. Thanks JAVI!!!!

Adam


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## nippon1

*not sure*

I ve done it over and over again. I am quite sure there must be some other problem. Reference marks are just same on both cams, DW timing is great still tiller isn`t even. There is almost 4mm (0.16inch) difference between limbs. I have thougt and I cant find any other reason but that the limbs are not equal. Could it be true, is it big problem? Can I just adjust tiller even whit limb weight adjustment bolts?


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## Archersteve

theTarget said:


> Twisting the Buss (yoke) cable you will increase the draw length and increase the draw weight.
> Twisting the control cable will shorten the draw length and decrease the draw weight.
> 
> correct me, Javi, if I'm wrong ...


You may need to PM Javi to get his input on this, but for whatever it is worth to you, I contend that you never adjust either in an attempt to change draw weight of draw weight.

Minor changes in draw length can be done with the string, but changing either the buss or control cable will take the bow out of timing. Once the bow is timed, both should be adjusted together, or not at all.


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## Archersteve

nippon1 said:


> I`ve bought lazertec and found out it wasn`t in tune. Reference holes were good but in fulldraw upper cam is under rotated. I have se more twist to buss but it makes the cams go out of sync. Untwisting control cable seems to help but soon there is no twist at all. I have read the original post quite a few times but due my not so perfect english skills it is possible that I miss understood something. So am I doing it right?
> 
> One man in local archery club told me that he adjust timing only in fulldraw. Is that right way or should I also look the reference holes as they say in bow manual? I think there is no professional dealer or proshop so please help me.


The local archery club is correct, the timing should always be adjusted at full draw. The reference holes are for a starting point only, and may not be as the manual shows when the bow is tuned.

Start over with JAVI's instructions, and if you don't understand a step, ask again. The instructions will always work, but once a step is complete, forget it and move on to the next step.

I understand your language problem, but you are doing better with english than I would in your native tounge.:wink:


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## Archersteve

nippon1 said:


> I ve done it over and over again. I am quite sure there must be some other problem. Reference marks are just same on both cams, DW timing is great still tiller isn`t even. There is almost 4mm (0.16inch) difference between limbs. I have thougt and I cant find any other reason but that the limbs are not equal. Could it be true, is it big problem? Can I just adjust tiller even whit limb weight adjustment bolts?


You can adjust the tiller with the limb bolts, but you should not need to.

Just start over at the beginning. Tighten the limb bolts completely, untwist or twist strings in the order JAVI suggest, get the reference holes correct at the point he suggest, than move on.

You might want to PM JAVI directly and ask him.


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## nippon1

*well*

I did everything and marks are in right places, very solid wall and cant feel any vibration. Still I got to adjust tiller whit limb bolts at the end to achieve even tiller. I tryed to forget reference holes and use tiller to sync but it didn`t work at all. Bow was vibrating and when I shot arrow whitout fletching it hit target in almost vertical position. I feel that those marks give the best result. No sound no vibes and even unfletched arrow fly nicely. I think I`ll shoot whit this setup until I buy new string and try then again. (It is hunting season for rabbit, fox and marten here...don`t want to miss it :wink: )


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## Archersteve

You may have one of the very rare bows that does not have balanced limbs. I still suggest that you have missed a step, but if it works right, don't fix what is not broken.:thumbs_up


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## AKRuss

I synchronized and timed Cam 1/2 cams on all 4 of my Protecs, 2 of which I bought new and 2 used (05 & 06s). Both of the Protecs I purchased new were setup by my pro shop with WC strings and were pretty good though just slightly under rotated but in sync. These two bows shot great as is, maybe better then the way I tuned them but more on that later. One of my used bows has no-name custom strings that are so far out it can't be tuned (about an inch over ATA with the bus already super twisted) so I ordered new strings for it. I installed new WC string and cables on the other used bow. I only sort of followed Javi's directions as I didn't untwist my string before adjusting the cables. I was able to get ATA and sync pretty quickly and then timed the cams. There was no draw stop that contacted the cable on any of the bows. There is a rubber piece there but it looks like they were all cut off, not sure why. I used my teenager as a draw board, probably a weakness in the system. All 3 bows that were still in the game were slightly under rotated so I back off both cables until the cable was flat with the module at draw on the upper limb, as per javi, re-synced the cams and tweaked the ATA with the string. They all tuned within a knat's eyelash. The 3 tuned bows shoot very well with no vibration. My pro-shop likes to tune largely by feel and now I know why. You can feel and see the cams tune in. Pretty cool stuff. I must admit I got caught in half-twist-itus and the bows went in and out of the press quite a number of times, probably because a rooky was at the helm. The bows tuned only slightly within the drilled timing circle references but no where near the middle. I tried the tiller thing but it didn't seem to work and I don't like my bows with flat tiller anyway. Maybe it's a finger shooting thing. I finally wound up syncing things using the distance from the end of the string groove in the cam perpendicularly to the string. Seemed to work pretty good and was easy to measure (1.15cm). Now for shooting; when tuned this way, the cams hit rock bottom in the valley with a good hard wall. I'm a finger shooter and apparently I'm use to shooting slightly under rotated cams which seem to allow the string to come off my fingers faster. I will shoot these bows tuned this way and see how it goes. If I can't get used to it, I'll under rotate them just slightly again. Anyway, it was great fun and I owe it all to Javi for the info and my pro-shop for giving me their old press that doesn't work on parallel limb bows. 

Sorry for the long post!


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## Hopperton

OK all these Hoyt Gurus here. Can anyone confidently tell me the spacer orientation on the spiral cams? Also maybe the spacer thickness? I just toook a bow in on trade and I can physically see the spacers are wrong. Also Can you tell me if there is a place to purchase spacer kits or is it just as easy to run up to sears hardware?


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## El Conquistador

Javi - I have a question for you about something you did not cover in your tuning instructions. I have a Vectrix XL with a floating yoke, what steps should I take to make sure that the yoke is set correctly?


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## Hopperton

WOW, I tuned my two Protecs this week per Javi's post's. You can feel the difference. I never thought tuning would chage the feel so much. Great post. I have the instructions printed out and stuck on the wall next to my press.


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## El Conquistador

Javi - I have a question regarding the Vector cams on the Vectrix. Since these cams do not have refences on both cams, do I have to solely rely on the tiller measurement to determine cam sync? Also since these cams have stops on both cams, I am unsure how they could be out of sync when the draw stops are in time.


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## nysbuckwacker

I have 2003 Hoyt MT Sport XR200,with the Cam and 1/2 system.Will what you describe here Java work on it also?I was wondering.cause thw last time I changed the string on it I had a bugger of a time getting it back into tune.


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## hairbear21

Okay, here's where I'm at. I have the ATA 1/4" long, and the cams are sync'd perfectly. The problem is that the tiller is about a 32nd of an inch different. I have both limbs bottomed, but it is still the same. Do I need to worry about that much of a difference in tiller if the cams are sync'd? Also, my top cam is underrotated at full draw. I have tried to get it right, but when I do, the sync is way off. Am I missing something?


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## bassman409

Try this:
1. Set the tiller even with the control cable
2.Check the draw weight to make sure you have the max #s plus 2
3.Now check rotation and fix with buss or control as stated by Javi
4.Dont look at the timing any more
5.Set the DL with the string.


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## j3dgu

*Vector Cam.5*



Archersteve said:


> Not a silly question at all. Yes, the initial reference using the holes is close enough. If you bottom out the limbs, and then follow all other steps as previously given, than you will be just fine.



Archersteve, do you go by the holes in the Vector cam to tune the bow or follow the eched marks on the bottom can that the manual refers too? I am trying to fine tune my Vectrix and my string barely covers the "holes" on the cams but the cam position on the bottom limb is in good position according to the manual? Should I tune the cams to line up with the "holes"? thank you in advance!:cocktail:


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## Archersteve

j3dgu said:


> Archersteve, do you go by the holes in the Vector cam to tune the bow or follow the eched marks on the bottom can that the manual refers too? I am trying to fine tune my Vectrix and my string barely covers the "holes" on the cams but the cam position on the bottom limb is in good position according to the manual? Should I tune the cams to line up with the "holes"? thank you in advance!:cocktail:


Either will work because this is just a starting point. If it makes you feel a little more comfortable, use the eched marks, but remember that the real important issue is the cam "timing" at full draw, not the cam timing at full let down.


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## AKRuss

Tiller is generall an 1/16 to 3/8 less on the lower limb when the limbs are bottomed out and it's OK. It's been my humble experience that this is how most bows are made and shoot just fine setup like that. Ragsdale wrote about this last year and recommended this setting. To get even tiller you generally have to back out the lower limb, which will change your nock height. Better yet, you can leave it as is and tiller tune at a later date if you so choose.


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## Archersteve

AKRuss said:


> Tiller is generall an 1/16 to 3/8 less on the lower limb when the limbs are bottomed out and it's OK. It's been my humble experience that this is how most bows are made and shoot just fine setup like that. Ragsdale wrote about this last year and recommended this setting. To get even tiller you generally have to back out the lower limb, which will change your nock height. Better yet, you can leave it as is and tiller tune at a later date if you so choose.


Not sure I would ever openly challenge Terry, so if Terry says something, defer to him. Nevertheless, it has not been my experience, humble or otherwise, that any bow was designed to have massive tiller differences. Note that I consider 3/16" (half of the 3/8" stated above) or more difference to be rather massive.

Tiller is really just limb balancing. Trying to get the top and bottom limbs to work together during the draw. If they do not work together than you get draw forces moving up and down, causing nock travel and loss of the smooth feeling we all so love. When we tiller tune, we are really just compensating for a combination of nock height and limb balance, and the fact that the arrow cannot be shot from the center of the bow because there is where our hand must be. 

Having said all that, it is not all that uncommon to find a bow with a 1/16" to 1/8" tiller difference when all limb bolts are bottomed out. With some bow designs, this can be fixed by twisting buss or control cables. With some designs, all that can be done is adjusting limb bolts. If you have more than 3/32" of an inch tiller difference with bottomed out limb bolts, and you have a design that cannot be altered by twisting buss or control cables, than you might consider requesting factory warranty to provide balanced limbs.


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## hairbear21

bassman409 said:


> Try this:
> 1. Set the tiller even with the control cable
> 2.Check the draw weight to make sure you have the max #s plus 2
> 3.Now check rotation and fix with buss or control as stated by Javi
> 4.Dont look at the timing any more
> 5.Set the DL with the string.



This helps a ton! Maybe I'm not getting it and needed the layman's breakdown, but this helps.

Archersteve - I have about 1/32" inch difference between the top and bottom limb. I have tried everything to get it out and it won't work. So, is it okay to have that difference? Quite frankly, this is the one thing that has been driving me nuts for a week!


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## Archersteve

hairbear21 said:


> This helps a ton! Maybe I'm not getting it and needed the layman's breakdown, but this helps.
> 
> Archersteve - I have about 1/32" inch difference between the top and bottom limb. I have tried everything to get it out and it won't work. So, is it okay to have that difference? Quite frankly, this is the one thing that has been driving me nuts for a week!


Take a deep breath, relax, think about x rings, and don't let it trouble you again.

When you have everything tuned, and you feel a need to waist some time, go out and shoot at 70 M and do a little tiller tuning, this time with limb bolts. When you are done, if you even changed a thing, you will be different anyway. 

PS, remember that when you tiller tune you need to readjust nock height and ................. oh well, that is another thread. :shade:


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## bass.n

I am starting to check the setup on my....


*Hoyt Vectrix XL*


Do I start with Javi post #1 ?

My cam does not look like the first?


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## Archersteve

bass.n said:


> I am starting to check the setup on my....
> 
> 
> *Hoyt Vectrix XL*
> 
> 
> Do I start with Javi post #1 ?
> 
> My cam does not look like the first?


Javi did us all a great service when he started this post. The cam 1.5 is probably the most correctly adjusted cam in the industry because of Javi; he deserves our thanks.

:icon_salut: :77: 

The problem of course is that each year Hoyt, as do all of the other companies, changes their cam designs just a little. I wish that the companies would produce a post like Javi did, but none of them apparently care enough to help us like that. I guess this is a formal challenge to all bow companies.

Now, I can see it already, our cams don't need tuning or timing. Don't believe it. All cams, or for that matter even wheels, benefit from timing or tuning or adjusting. Let me make that clear, ALL of them do. Single cams can be over or under rotated, dual cams and cam 1.5 hybrids can be out of time, binary cams are no better or worse than dual or cam 1.5 hybrids; if you don't get it right at the start, it matters little that cams are slaved together, toggled together, don't have a second cam, etc.

Now, back to your question, read the entire post again. Study it carefully, and pay close attention to the comments on the Zypher cam. Note how the principle is the same, but the cam is different.

You will need to adjust your bow, starting with step # 1, but using the principles suggested for the Zypher cam. The alignment holes will not be the same, the shape will not be the same, but you will be able to find some reference point that you can use.

I do not shoot the new cam, but I did help a couple to tune it. Quite frankly, it was not that hard, but than I have tuned more bows than I can count. So perhaps if you are not comfortable about doing this you should have an experienced friend help you.

You know what is so great about Javi's post, I don't think he shoots a Hoyt right now. And yet, we have all gained from his skills.:thumbs_up


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## j3dgu

Archersteve said:


> Javi did us all a great service when he started this post. The cam 1.5 is probably the most correctly adjusted cam in the industry because of Javi; he deserves our thanks.
> 
> :icon_salut: :77:
> 
> 
> You know what is so great about Javi's post, I don't think he shoots a Hoyt right now. And yet, we have all gained from his skills.:thumbs_up


I agree 110% much thanks to Javi!:darkbeer: This post help me tune not only my bows but other club members who don't have access to the resources. Thanks again. BTW, what bow does Javi shoot these days?


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## AKRuss

I agree with above, we owe Javi our gratitude. 

Archersteve, far be it for me to argue with true experts, of which I do not claim to be. However, every compound, recurve and longbow I've ever measured comes from the factory with a slight postive tiller. My 4 Protecs have a slight positive tiller when bottomed out. In a fairly recent article (about a year ago?) by Ragsdale in "Archery Focus" recommended checking to make sure your bow has postive tiller. Soooo, I don't suggest it's OK to have positive tiller flippantly. I realize to do tiller tuning you may want to start at zero tiller as a reference but whatever. I don't mean to argue the point.


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## lasse5214

*Draw lenght wrong*

Hi there
I have a Hoyt Turbotec with spiral cam & 1/2 Draw lenght 29" I should really want to have max 28" Can i change cams ? With what effect ? weaker bow, stronger bow ? Is this possible or do i have to buy an other bow ?
Best regards from Norway
Lasse


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## Archersteve

j3dgu said:


> I agree 110% much thanks to Javi!:darkbeer: This post help me tune not only my bows but other club members who don't have access to the resources. Thanks again. BTW, what bow does Javi shoot these days?


You would need to PM JAVI to find out what he is shooting now. I remember he changed over last year, but I don't remember if he indicated what it was.


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## Archersteve

AKRuss said:


> I agree with above, we owe Javi our gratitude.
> 
> Archersteve, far be it for me to argue with true experts, of which I do not claim to be. However, every compound, recurve and longbow I've ever measured comes from the factory with a slight postive tiller. My 4 Protecs have a slight positive tiller when bottomed out. In a fairly recent article (about a year ago?) by Ragsdale in "Archery Focus" recommended checking to make sure your bow has postive tiller. Soooo, I don't suggest it's OK to have positive tiller flippantly. I realize to do tiller tuning you may want to start at zero tiller as a reference but whatever. I don't mean to argue the point.


Every expert has their own tricks and opinions. Just because I don't find Terry's position to be completely accurate does not mean that I think I know more than he does. Try his method and see if it works for you. Afterall, he was the best for many many many years.

Personally, I just find that starting at zero tiller is best, but after tiller tuning, well you might say the proof is in the results. See what works for you.


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## Archersteve

lasse5214 said:


> Hi there
> I have a Hoyt Turbotec with spiral cam & 1/2 Draw lenght 29" I should really want to have max 28" Can i change cams ? With what effect ? weaker bow, stronger bow ? Is this possible or do i have to buy an other bow ?
> Best regards from Norway
> Lasse


As long as you stay with the same cam type, you can change to a different draw-length cam without loosing any draw weight. Yes, you can change to a 28" spiral Cam and 1/2 without any problems.

You would need to contact Hoyt about changing to a different type of cam, such as a Zypher cam, etc., but I don't suggest it.


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## lasse5214

*Ok*

So you suggest that a new bow is a better choice ? Hmmmm
Stupid of me to buy a bow with no adjust possibility 
Thanks for the tip thou


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## Archersteve

lasse5214 said:


> So you suggest that a new bow is a better choice ? Hmmmm
> Stupid of me to buy a bow with no adjust possibility
> Thanks for the tip thou


No need to change bows, just stay with the same "type" of cam. The spiral cam and a half (29") should be changed to a spiral cam and a half (28"). 

I just don't suggest that you change from a "spiral cam and a half" to a different cam (like a Zypher cam). The draw cycle on the new cam will be different, and cams are build around a limb design so that the two work together. Often changing out a cam style will require that you change out limbs also. Sometimes, changing out the limbs to ones that will work is not possible because the limb angle would also change. One problem leads to another.

In your case, just change out the cam with the same type, just rated with a different draw length.:thumbs_up


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## lasse5214

Ok, i see. Thanks Steve. That makes things better. I quess i have to order cabels and string to mach too ?
Best regards
Lasse


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## Archersteve

lasse5214 said:


> Ok, i see. Thanks Steve. That makes things better. I quess i have to order cabels and string to mach too ?
> Best regards
> Lasse


Sorry, I should have mentioned that. You should check first though because sometimes you don't need to change out everything when you change just one inch. You probably will, but maybe not. Call Vapor Trial and they will be able to tell you quickly - and if you do, they can send you top quality items ASAP.


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## dukpa

*ProElite 3500 Cam & 1/2*

Hi Javi,

First, thanks for your initial post on Hybrid cam tuning. Most helpful.

I have tuned my ProElite 3500 Cam & 1/2 as suggested by you. However, now my ATA is about 1/2 inch longer than and DL about an inch shorter (I shoot 29" DL) at the E position. Draw stop is timed and BH spot on, tiller even, limbs bottomed out.

Please let me know how to correct this.

Thanks in advance


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## Archersteve

*Start over with step # 2.*



dukpa said:


> Hi Javi,
> 
> First, thanks for your initial post on Hybrid cam tuning. Most helpful.
> 
> I have tuned my ProElite 3500 Cam & 1/2 as suggested by you. However, now my ATA is about 1/2 inch longer than and DL about an inch shorter (I shoot 29" DL) at the E position. Draw stop is timed and BH spot on, tiller even, limbs bottomed out.
> 
> Please let me know how to correct this.
> 
> Thanks in advance


I hope that Javi is watching this post, I know he has not been as active as he use to be. But then again, neither have I.

My first suggestion, just in case Javi does not answer, is to go back to the very beginning look at post # 2. You will see that Javi starts with the A2A at just 1/4" too long, than the adjusting brings it back down. You could not have an A2A 1/2" longer unless you did not start correctly. Notice also that Javi did a great job of explaining the function of the string and cables. 

So, this is a test, which one controls A2A and sets limb pre-stress? This one will adjust the A2A, and increase brace height at the same time. The draw length will follow with each of the steps given.

Just start over at the beginning, re-read Javi's instructions. They instructions never fail, but sometimes we fail to understand the instructions.


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## Hopperton

Archersteve?

UI have a question. I have tuned and timed my Ultrelite. I walk back tuned it and I am assuming it is me but for the most part I have al ine for some reason lately I have been shakey at full draw.

Then I shot it through paper to check my up and down and it shoots a bullet hole from 10 to 30 yards. 

My problem is my group is still opening up at 35 yards. Is there an issue you can think of besides my head that could be causing this with what seems to be a very well tuned bow?


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## dukpa

Thanks Archersteve. Will start from begining again.


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## Archersteve

Hopperton said:


> Archersteve?
> 
> UI have a question. I have tuned and timed my Ultrelite. I walk back tuned it and I am assuming it is me but for the most part I have al ine for some reason lately I have been shakey at full draw.
> 
> Then I shot it through paper to check my up and down and it shoots a bullet hole from 10 to 30 yards.
> 
> My problem is my group is still opening up at 35 yards. Is there an issue you can think of besides my head that could be causing this with what seems to be a very well tuned bow?


Hopperton, There are a lot of issues that could be causing your problems, of with on a one could be "your head".

For example, when my blood pressure is high, I shoot a little wild. If the draw length is a little long, I shoot wild. If I have forgotton to settle my draw arm into a bone to bone to bone position, I shoot wild. If my arrows are a little underspined, I shoot wild.

I expect that what you have is a form problem, and Nuts & Bolts is the best one I can direct you to to solve that. From what you are telling me, it is not the bow. So forget the bow for now, and work on form. 

And most of all, remember that this is fun.:wink:


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## wblackfin

*Need some help please*

I have read Javi's instructions over and over. I am either missing something or.....or.....I don't know what! 
I'm trying to tune my Reflex Highlander. I back off the string, then back off the buss to get ATA 1/4" long. I can get the tiller close to even for the cam sync, but the top cam is under rotated when the draw stop hits the string. I have the control cable fully untwisted but that is not enough to rotate the top came to the flat spot. The only way I can get the draw stop timing correct is then to twist up the buss. But when I do this my DL is way long. They are factory strings with only about 100 shots on them. Any thoughts? Is the problem with my strings? I measured the control cable and it is at spec when fully untwisted.


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## jackhorner

any info on zephyr cams. thanks Brett


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## bassman409

blackfin,
I think you may be making a mistake in the tuning of your cam 1/2 bow. 
1. Make sure you start with the limbs turned all the way down to max weight.
2. When you untwist the string the a-a should be very close to 1/4 long, 
3. After cams are in sync and tiller is correct go for the timing with the buss or the control, if the control is already with no twists then twist the buss.
4. Now dont forget to twist up the string again to where your DL is what the bow is set at!


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## ajensen83

Hey guys, great post...

I am taking this kind of slow and learning a little bit at a time... I have a vulcan that has a 29.5 DL... first question, does the vulcan use this same cam 1/2 as shown in the first post??

if it does then my next question is this, I am bottomed out and mt A2A is 33.5, which according to the hoyt website, is right where it should be... 
then I measure my tiller and the top cam measurement is 9 1/8 and the bottom cam measurement is 9 even... is this right or should they be exactly the same....

then I look at the cams on the module side and I notice that my strings dont cover the little reference holes that the manual talks about... shouldn't they, or are the reference holes more of a guideline that a rule???

thanks ahead of time


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## wblackfin

bassman409 said:


> blackfin,
> I think you may be making a mistake in the tuning of your cam 1/2 bow.
> 1. Make sure you start with the limbs turned all the way down to max weight.
> 2. When you untwist the string the a-a should be very close to 1/4 long,
> 3. After cams are in sync and tiller is correct go for the timing with the buss or the control, if the control is already with no twists then twist the buss.
> 4. Now dont forget to twist up the string again to where your DL is what the bow is set at!



Thanks for the reply bassman409,
My problem is that when I back off the string it really does not change the ATA much. To get the ATA 1/4" long I need to back off the buss, but by doing this I need to untwist the control cable to get the cams synced. When the control is fully untwisted the cams are close to being synced but the top cam is under rotated when the draw stop hits the string on the bottom cam. Now according to the directions I should either untwist the control or twist the buss to get the draw stop timed. Being that when the bow is at this point my DL is very long I would choose to untwist the control cable, but as stated the control is already fully untwisted. So if I take the other option which is to twist up the buss my DL becomes even longer by about 1.5". Am I supposed to be able to twist up the string enough to compensate for this long DL? 
Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## bassman409

Blackfin, I think you are really close to getting in tune but I wonder 2 things: What is your draw weight when maxed and how are you measuring the draw length? By the way , if you don't get any change in the a-a when slacking the string 10 turns then it is already too long and you will need quite a few turns to get the DL right. The factory string has most likely stretched a bit.


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## wblackfin

*It worked!*

bassman409,
I am measuring the DL using IBO standards. I wont have access to a scale till I get down to the range (I have one on my wish list).

I started tuning from scratch... again!. This time I took your suggestion and twisted up the buss even though the DL was long. Then I put about 34 twists in the string many more than I had done in the past and *bingo* I got the DL where it should be. The tiller is about a 1/32" from even, the string is centered over the reference holes and the ATA Is just a 1/16" short. At this point I think all I need to do is a little tweak and then creep tune.
Thanks for your help:set1_applaud::darkbeer:


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## contndr

Thanks for the information guys. I went to a 3D shoot this past Sunday and shot with a couple of guys from Hoyt. One of them asked what caliber my Reflex Buckskin was, rimfire or centerfire. He said that my bow sounded like a gun going off. I had a new Winner's Choice string put on my bow this past winter and as it turns out, my cams are out of sync. I will use the information in this post to try and correct this problem. I know that I had a lot of problems papertuning this bow after having the string and cables replaced.

Thanks again for the information!!!!


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## CaptPete

OK, here is where I'm at: I untwisted the string and twisted the buss cable to get me to 1/4" over A2A. I put 7 twist in the buss to get there. Then to get the sync, according the reference holes, I put 13 twists into the control cable. The cables are both 1/8" below the holes and the A2A remains 1/4" over. Did I do the sync right, I'm a little unsure about it. Does that big of a difference in the number of twists sound right? Also I'm not sure where to measure from for the brace height. I want to make sure the sync part is right before I go on to the timing.


Kevin


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## wblackfin

CaptPete said:


> OK, here is where I'm at: I untwisted the string and twisted the buss cable to get me to 1/4" over A2A. I put 7 twist in the buss to get there. Then to get the sync, according the reference holes, I put 13 twists into the control cable. The cables are both 1/8" below the holes and the A2A remains 1/4" over. Did I do the sync right, I'm a little unsure about it. Does that big of a difference in the number of twists sound right? Also I'm not sure where to measure from for the brace height. I want to make sure the sync part is right before I go on to the timing.
> 
> 
> Kevin


How is your Tiller with limbs bottomed out? When cams are in sync tiller should just about be even.

Brace hight is measured from the inside surface of the string to the inside surface of the deepest part of the grip.

Tiller is measured from the inside surface of the string to the limb at the point just outside of the pocket (where it connects to the riser). When I got my tiller even my strings also came into cover the reference holes. But if your tiller is even and your string is an equal distance from each hole that should be fine too.

Every bow is different and the number of twists each of the string/cables require will vary. The important part is the measurements.


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## CaptPete

The tiller is dead even and the cables are the same distance below the reference holes...1/8". It sounds as if I'm good to go for the next step. Just wanted to make sure I was doing it right to this point so I didn't have to start all over.

Kevin


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## bassman409

It might save you some time if you give the draw weight a quick check to make sure the cables are OK. Then you can start the cam timing .


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## XP35

*X-Coat had me scratching my head!*

My ProTec has been feeling a little short lately so I put a tape to it. It was a 1/4" long AtA and a little short on BH. The cams were still in sync as tiller measured dead on. So I figured a few twists in each cable, at the most, and a few in the string should get everything back to spec. But after I did it the top cam was over rotated horribly. BAD!!!! So I wondered what was up :noidea: and added a few (3 more twists) and it was overrotated even MORE!  So I stepped back and :confused3: for a minute and wondered if it was possible the control cable was twisted the wrong direction, but the XCoat was letting me see the direction of the twists under it. See.....I have not even touched the cables since I got the bow in December......so WC cables to stay put rather well. That was thousands of shots.  So I untwisted the control cable and twisted it the other way 'til it was JUST shorter than the length on the limb sticker. BAM!! Tiller measured dead even and AtA and BH were right on. So I checked cam lean and adjusted it out at rest (not full draw, though......didn't build a draw board yet, but have most of the parts!), put the sight and stabs back on and stepped outside to creep tune with the BowMaster in hand. Didn't twist anything after that. Still need a few in the string, but it was already getting too dark to shoot. So it will be adjusted tomorrow after work and retuned.


POINT IS: IF SOMEONE ELSE INSTALLED YOUR WC CABLES.....MAKE SURE THEY ARE TWISTED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!! :tongue:


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## slinger

I just finished tuning my *Vectrix XL*(Vector Cams) after changing cams and string/cables, but have a couple of questions.

Tiller is dead even.
A to A is within 1/8" (short)
BH is within 1/8" (long)
Draw length is dead on.
Cams are hitting the draw-stops at the same time.
Bow is shooting good...quiet and no vibration.

Problem is, my draw weight is 7.5# too *low*, and the bottom limb is BARELY between the timing marks. 

According to Hoyt, when I changed the cams for my DL (went from 29" to 30.5"), the bow should max at 66#, and I'm only getting 58.5#. 
The buss and control cable don't have many twists in them either (maybe 5 or 6 each), and the string is twisted alot.
I called Hoyt, and they said to take it to a dealer (of course)...well, that's not gonna happen.

I've tuned several bows with Spiral cams, and the regular Cam 1/2 without any problems, but this is my first attempt at tuning a parallel limb bow.
Any suggestions are appreciated.

slinger


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## bassman409

Are these 70 pound limbs?


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## JAVI

slinger said:


> I just finished tuning my *Vectrix XL*(Vector Cams) after changing cams and string/cables, but have a couple of questions.
> 
> Tiller is dead even.
> A to A is within 1/8" (short)
> BH is within 1/8" (long)
> Draw length is dead on.
> Cams are hitting the draw-stops at the same time.
> Bow is shooting good...quiet and no vibration.
> 
> Problem is, my draw weight is 7.5# too *low*, and the bottom limb is BARELY between the timing marks.
> 
> According to Hoyt, when I changed the cams for my DL (went from 29" to 30.5"), the bow should max at 66#, and I'm only getting 58.5#.
> The buss and control cable don't have many twists in them either (maybe 5 or 6 each), and the string is twisted alot.
> I called Hoyt, and they said to take it to a dealer (of course)...well, that's not gonna happen.
> 
> I've tuned several bows with Spiral cams, and the regular Cam 1/2 without any problems, but this is my first attempt at tuning a parallel limb bow.
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> slinger


Sounds like you got the string twisted to much... give me a call later this evening...


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## CaptPete

Finally got back to working on the bow. Everything is to spec except after twisting the string to get the draw length, it is 1lb. under max draw weight. Just wanted to say a big thanks for everyones help... especially Archersteve for answering all my PM's. The bow has never shot better.


Kevin


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## slinger

JAVI said:


> Sounds like you got the string twisted to much... give me a call later this evening...


Replied to your PM...thanks!


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## slinger

bassman409 said:


> Are these 70 pound limbs?


No. They're 96 deflection which, according to the tech's at Hoyt, will max at 66# with the 6.0 cams (30.5" DL).
The bow was originally 60# @ 29".


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## slinger

JAVI said:


> Sounds like you got the string twisted to much... give me a call later this evening...


Javi,
I _think_ I see where you're going:

Untwist the string, alot, and hope that lengthens the a to a _past_ spec (35 7/8").
Add twists to the Buss cable to bring the a to a back to 1/8"-3/16" or so longer than specs (parallel limb bow), while adding twists to Control cable to keep cams in sync. This _should_ also preload the limbs more.
Time the stops.
Twist string back to DL and DW.

That's my plan for tomorrow. I'll call ya if this doesn't work.
Wish me luck!

slinger


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## slinger

*UPDATE!*
I worked on it a while this morning, and got it real close.
Got the #'s up to 64.25, DL is perfect (30.5"), tiller is even, AtA is 1/8" short, and BH is 1/16" long. Cams are hitting the stops at the same time.
Bow is quiet and fast. 
Only had to make a couple minor adjustments to the rest, and resighted my pins. Walkback tuned out to 40 yards. Broadheads are flying like darts and grouping with field points out to 40 yards.
I need to do a "creep tune", but I think I'm just about where I need to be.

Thanks everyone for your help/suggestions!!

slinger


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## SILENT-SNIPER

Hello, I have a question. I appollogize ahead of time if it has been covered, but this is such a long thread I may have missed it!

I have a Hoyt Vulcan 70# 29.5" draw. My a to a is measuring at 33 7/8". My maxed out poundage is 75#. I can shoot the pondage but am a little concerned of drawing while cold. I would prefer it to be between 70 -72# maxed out. The DL is right on to maybe a tad long. 

If I go through Javis procedure, can the poundage be reduced with only slightly reducing the DL? 

If I shorten the a to a to spec, how will it affect my poundage and DL?

Thank you for any input,
SILENT-SNIPER


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## CaptPete

I finally had time to really shoot the bow since tuning/ timing it. It shoots great and is VERY quiet. The only problem is I feel a very distinct buzz / vibration that I feel in the grip. There has always been a very slight buzz in the bow, but it really became pronounced after retiming / tuning the bow. I have checked all screws, removed the sight, tried 2 different rests, 3 different stabilizers, changed the cable slide, put string leaches in both cables and removed the grip(side plates). It feels the same if it is bare or fully rigged. If I tap the control cable or the riser, I can feel it in the grip...anywhere else I tap it, I don't feel it. 
I'm shooting a '06 Hoyt Lazertec set 59lbs.(maxed out), 27 DL., tiller is dead even, everything else is to spec.
When tuning / timing it I had to put 7 twists in the buss to get 1/4" over A2A, then 13 twists in the control to get it in sync., then another 3 twists in the buss and took 3 1/2 out of the control to get the timing set. Then twisted the string to get the DL set to AMO & then again after changing the DL module to my length. Any ideas????


Kevin


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## badger109

OK. I have a unique problem. I cannot get my a2a longer than spec.

First of all hello everyone, this looks like a great forum! And thanks Javi

Next, I have an '04 (or is it '03?) Reflex Excursion. 50-60# 27-30" cam and a half

I called Hoyt for specs, as they aren't on the website for older models. I had multiple reps tell me that the a2a and brace height should be the same as the '05 excursion. This I cannot believe, as the string and cable specs differ. 

Anyway I went with it. I started at 34 3/8 A2A and backed off the string. It almost came to 34.5, which is the specification. I continued to back off the buss/yolk cable, but it changed very little. I even untwisted the string more to make sure it wasn't affecting anything. Not where's about 2 twists left in the cable (I took 20 out just for the heck of it) and the a2a is just barely over 34.5.

I have it on 29" and the limbs are all the way in if it matters. I will have to call hoyt again tomorrow while i twist up the buss cable, to make certain the year, and get the correct specs.

So if anyone can help me if I overlooked something or give me charts I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Badger


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## XP35

Have you measured the string and cables?

Remember, too, that twisting both cables (or untwisting both) has more effect on AtA than just playing with the buss cable. I have found it necessary to twist/untwist both together after untwisting the string to make a real difference in AtA. I give them both the same number as they are close to the same length.


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## wblackfin

badger109 - Welcome on board! :darkbeer:

Others with a little more experience than myself will have to answer your specific questions on this one. But I found on Hunters Friend that the '04 has a brace hight of 8.38" and the A-T-A is listed as 34.5". Don't Know if this will help you at all?


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## badger109

Thanks.

I didn't call hoyt yet...

So maybe I just need to untwist the control cable as well.

I'll give it another shot


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## badger109

wierd. it won't let me edit.

Anyway if I measure the string, how is it measured? Do I fold the yolk flat or keep it spaced? Should I pinch the loops flat or leave them open?

i should get new cables and strings anyway.


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## pyroarch57

badger109 said:


> wierd. it won't let me edit.
> 
> Anyway if I measure the string, how is it measured? Do I fold the yolk flat or keep it spaced? Should I pinch the loops flat or leave them open?
> 
> i should get new cables and strings anyway.


It really isn`t that critical, i measure mine straight between two posts.


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## badger109

Dispite all my a2a and spec issues, I started over and am tuning it up again. Well I got the sync down (according to the holes anyway) and I'm just backing off the buss and control each until both the draw stop and the sync are correct. Hopefully it will eventually get there (maybe that's the reason for the 1/4 inch); backing the control and the buss equally don't seem to exactly counteract eachother.

Anyway, once I get that, how much should I tighten the string? Since I couldn't make the a2a long to begin with, I don't know how much to tighten it. Should I tighten it to 1/4" shorter than whatever the axle to axle ends up being when I get the cams timed and sync'ed?

Well to me it seems that the draw stop timing isn't critical (but nice for a solid wall) and that a2a doesn't really matter as long as it's ballpark. Does that make sense?

Thanks in advance.


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## Archersteve

badger109 said:


> Despite all my a2a and spec issues, I started over and am tuning it up again. Well I got the sync down (according to the holes anyway) and I'm just backing off the buss and control each until both the draw stop and the sync are correct. Hopefully it will eventually get there (maybe that's the reason for the 1/4 inch); backing the control and the buss equally don't seem to exactly counteract each other.
> 
> Anyway, once I get that, how much should I tighten the string? Since I couldn't make the a2a long to begin with, I don't know how much to tighten it. Should I tighten it to 1/4" shorter than whatever the axle to axle ends up being when I get the cams timed and sync'ed?
> 
> Well to me it seems that the draw stop timing isn't critical (but nice for a solid wall) and that a2a doesn't really matter as long as it's ballpark. Does that make sense?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



The reason for the 1/4" was so the "string" did not impact the other adjustments. When you twist up the string to get the right draw length, it shortens the A2A about 1/4". You tighten the string just enough to get the correct draw length, no more, no less.

You are correct that twisting the control cable and the buss cable do not impact the 'exact' same amount - but they are close. If the buss cable and the control cable were the exact same length, then the impact would be the same.

As for "it seems that the draw stop timing isn't critical", well if your happy, than don't worry about it. But, for true accuracy, it is super critical. If the wall, and the turnover of the cams, is not solid and consistent, then each shot will have a different power stroke. You will even have up and down nock movement. Still, it depends mostly on your abilities.

For example, I don't drive a sports car. I can't legally drive fast enough to justify the extra speed, and I'm too old and fat to attract "chicks". But, for you young bucks, you might tell me I'm nuts.

We each have our own level of satisfaction. I hope you find yours.:wink:


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## Hoyt Thompson

OK I have a question. 
I have read and been told that on a Trykon that the "timing marks" on the bottom cam need to be close to center. On this thread archersteve says to a member that is working on a Trykon that "javi never mentions the timing marks on the cam". I have tuned my Trykon to my required DL and DW. The draw stops hit at the same time. The timing marks are not centered. It may just be me not knowing the bow as well others I have owned but the top cam seems a little over rotated at rest. I have not got a chance to shoot the bow as I have been sick and today it was raining. 

So did I have it right? How do I "KNOW" that the cam timing is right? The only marks the Trykon has are the marks on the bottom cam or at least that I know of.
Please help me as I am fustrated and don't want to mess anything more up.


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## wblackfin

I know from Javi's post that for most of the Cam & 1/2s, having an even tiller with the limbs maxed out is the way to tell if your in sync. I could not say for sure that this is also true with the Trykon but I would suspect that it is.


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## XP35

The Cam and a Half and Slam and a Half cams I have timed then creep tuned all ended up with the top cam very slightly over rotated compared to the timing marks. They shoot great, though. Hoyt's high rest and nock position is probably the culprit. Not to mention the shooter while creep tuning.


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## Archersteve

mattbrewer said:


> OK I have a question.
> I have read and been told that on a Trykon that the "timing marks" on the bottom cam need to be close to center. On this thread archersteve says to a member that is working on a Trykon that "javi never mentions the timing marks on the cam". I have tuned my Trykon to my required DL and DW. The draw stops hit at the same time. The timing marks are not centered. It may just be me not knowing the bow as well others I have owned but the top cam seems a little over rotated at rest. I have not got a chance to shoot the bow as I have been sick and today it was raining.
> 
> So did I have it right? How do I "KNOW" that the cam timing is right? The only marks the Trykon has are the marks on the bottom cam or at least that I know of.
> Please help me as I am fustrated and don't want to mess anything more up.



Matt, Can I assume you have received an answer you are happy with now?

Hoyt does not even call the marks "timing marks" but performance marks. It is not in their advertising model to admit to timing in the first place. Note that all bows, yes even binary cam and single cam bows, can benefit from some timing.

So, any marks that you use as a reference will only be as good as the totality of the system. If one set of limbs is lighter, or heavier, than the other, the marks will be a little off at correct timing. If the tiller is a tiny bit off, the marks will not be on. If you set your arrow rest higher or lower than what than someone else, the marks will differ than the other persons.

In short, any mark is just a starting point. Nothing more, and nothing less.:wink:


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## Hoyt Thompson

Archersteve said:


> Matt, Can I assume you have received an answer you are happy with now?
> 
> Hoyt does not even call the marks "timing marks" but performance marks. It is not in their advertising model to admit to timing in the first place. Note that all bows, yes even binary cam and single cam bows, can benefit from some timing.
> 
> So, any marks that you use as a reference will only be as good as the totality of the system. If one set of limbs is lighter, or heavier, than the other, the marks will be a little off at correct timing. If the tiller is a tiny bit off, the marks will not be on. If you set your arrow rest higher or lower than what than someone else, the marks will differ than the other persons.
> 
> In short, any mark is just a starting point. Nothing more, and nothing less.:wink:


OK a bunch of good answers here. I forgot to mention the my tiller on the top was slightly longer than my bottom tiller. I pressed it and twisted th CC and it did not seem to change. Untwisted CC and Twisted BC and it still did not seem to move. Have not had time today to play with it. Which am I supposed to twist to bring the top tiller shorter? Also I noticed my string serving was separating, I did not even untwist the sting the 10 twists that JAVI recommends. I untwisted it like 4-6 twists. How do you think that happened. This is a custom string from H&M they said they would replace it but I don't want the servings to separate again.


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## skullerud

Hi,
I have a 2006 Pro Elite XT3000 50-60pound, and I'm trying to tune it so I can get cam sunc and deadstop draw.
I have followed the instructions, and the cams are timed, the ATA is right, and the BH is right, but I've "lost" 6 pounds draw weight...
I'm sure I've done something wrong, but I cant figure out what it is.

Anyone that could help me on the right track?


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## minnow

mattbrewer said:


> OK a bunch of good answers here. I forgot to mention the my tiller on the top was slightly longer than my bottom tiller. I pressed it and twisted th CC and it did not seem to change. Untwisted CC and Twisted BC and it still did not seem to move. Have not had time today to play with it. Which am I supposed to twist to bring the top tiller shorter? Also I noticed my string serving was separating, I did not even untwist the sting the 10 twists that JAVI recommends. I untwisted it like 4-6 twists. How do you think that happened. This is a custom string from H&M they said they would replace it but I don't want the servings to separate again.


Untwisting the CC should shorten the top tiller a little, but, it will lengthen the bottom tiller also, probably more than it shortens the top tiller. Measure both with each change that you make. Also, twisting the buss cable will lengthen the bottom tiller with little or no effect on the top tiller. 
As far as the string serving seperating, I don't _think_ untwisting would do that. Javi has told me that overtwisting the string can have that effect though.


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## XP35

skullerud said:


> Hi,
> I have a 2006 Pro Elite XT3000 50-60pound, and I'm trying to tune it so I can get cam sunc and deadstop draw.
> I have followed the instructions, and the cams are timed, the ATA is right, and the BH is right, but I've "lost" 6 pounds draw weight...
> I'm sure I've done something wrong, but I cant figure out what it is.
> 
> Anyone that could help me on the right track?


Have you checked the DL? It only takes a little shorter DL to change DW.


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## bassman409

Skullrud
Did you meas the DW at the start after you syncd the cams ? You need to put 3 twists in both the CC and BussC and then tighten the string until the actual DL is the same as the cam setting for DL.


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## skullerud

bassman409 said:


> Skullrud
> Did you meas the DW at the start after you syncd the cams ? You need to put 3 twists in both the CC and BussC and then tighten the string until the actual DL is the same as the cam setting for DL.


I was wondering about when to tighten the string. I synced the cams, and tihgtened the string the same amount of turns (15turns) as I had loosened it, and ended up with DW og 52. loosened the string 10turns again, and the Draw Weight was up to 56. 
I havent measured the Draw length, actually. But the Brace height is right. 
¨How do I measure the draw Length? At full draw its a bit tricky to pull out the ol' measure tape while holding the bow....


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## bassman409

Skullrod
Put a mark on the riser or on a piece of tape on the riser the same as the deepest part of the grip, take a marker and mark an arrow 1 3/4 inch less than DL setting, draw arrow and compare marks in a mirror, dont shoot wall!


----------



## skullerud

this tuning turned out to be a lot harder than I expected, and I'm starting to be both frustrated and tired. there is no proshop to go to, and I'm totally on my own, so please bear over with me, ok?
I have a list of questions, so I hope someone will put up with these newbie questions.
( I have a 2006 Pro Elite XT3000 50-60' by the way)

1) when measuring ATA, do you use the cam bolts to measure from/to?

2) the timing holes on the cams, does the cables have to be inside? ( I cant get the draw weight I'm supposed to if they are)

3) should the Control Cable and the Buss cable have aproximately the same amount of twist, or is it ok to have the BC all twisted up, and the CC allmost nwinded?

4) What is the starting position on the cables and string? 

5) if the bottom cam is 5mm off the timing hole, and the top cam is on the hole, and I have the right draw weight, witch cable do i twist, and witch way do i twist it to get the cams synced and still have the draw weight intact?
And the other way around to.

5) if the tiller on the top is 2mm higher than the bottom, how do I adjust it?


I know this is a lot of questions, and maybe tupid ones to, but I'm inches from giving up, so please help me:-(


----------



## XP35

This tuning turned out to be a lot harder than I expected, and I'm starting to be both frustrated and tired. there is no proshop to go to, and I'm totally on my own, so please bear over with me, ok?
I have a list of questions, so I hope someone will put up with these newbie questions.
( I have a 2006 Pro Elite XT3000 50-60' by the way)

1) when measuring ATA, do you use the cam bolts to measure from/to? It's center to center on the axles, or top to top, or bottom to bottom. It's the same measurement.

2) the timing holes on the cams, does the cables have to be inside? ( I cant get the draw weight I'm supposed to if they are) NO! Forget the marks while timing. It used to make me pull my hair out. They are only for a quick check down the road later, not to get the cams perfectly timed for you and your setup and style.

3) should the Control Cable and the Buss cable have aproximately the same amount of twist, or is it ok to have the BC all twisted up, and the CC allmost nwinded? No. They should be CLOSE to the same if the cables were built to the proper length. Not necessarily the same, but pretty close.

4) What is the starting position on the cables and string? The string and cable lengths are on the limb sticker. You can pull the cables and measure them while twisting to length. I do this with a big rubber coated hook screwed into the wall and pull with a smooth metal rod in the other loop. Measure to the insides of the loops. It will get you in the ballpark with a little twisting to fine tune.

5) if the bottom cam is 5mm off the timing hole, and the top cam is on the hole, and I have the right draw weight, witch cable do i twist, and witch way do i twist it to get the cams synced and still have the draw weight intact?
And the other way around to. Again, forget the marks 'til you're done. They will be very close to being on when you are finished, but check sync and timing with a measuring tape and not those darned "timing marks". You'll get a lot less frustrated.

5) if the tiller on the top is 2mm higher than the bottom, how do I adjust it? I believe, if I am remembering correctly, that UNTWISTING the CC should reduce tiller at the top.


I know this is a lot of questions, and maybe tupid ones to, but I'm inches from giving up, so please help me:-(

I hope you get it, bud. It drove me nuts at first, too, but you CAN get it and get it right. When this is done you will have learned how to time and sync a finicky system. The rest will all seem like child's play afterward!


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## skullerud

XP35 said:


> This tuning turned out to be a lot harder than I expected, and I'm starting to be both frustrated and tired. there is no proshop to go to, and I'm totally on my own, so please bear over with me, ok?
> I have a list of questions, so I hope someone will put up with these newbie questions.
> ( I have a 2006 Pro Elite XT3000 50-60' by the way)
> 
> 1) when measuring ATA, do you use the cam bolts to measure from/to?
> 
> It's center to center on the axles, or top to top, or bottom to bottom. It's the same measurement.


Hm. that cant be. cause if the center to center on axels is 41 3/8, the top to top will be more than 1inch longer. 



XP35 said:


> 2) the timing holes on the cams, does the cables have to be inside? ( I cant get the draw weight I'm supposed to if they are)
> 
> NO! Forget the marks while timing. It used to make me pull my hair out. They are only for a quick check down the road later, not to get the cams perfectly timed for you and your setup and style.
> 
> 3) should the Control Cable and the Buss cable have aproximately the same amount of twist, or is it ok to have the BC all twisted up, and the CC allmost nwinded?
> 
> No. They should be CLOSE to the same if the cables were built to the proper length. Not necessarily the same, but pretty close.
> 
> 4) What is the starting position on the cables and string? The string and cable lengths are on the limb sticker. You can pull the cables and measure them while twisting to length. I do this with a big rubber coated hook screwed into the wall and pull with a smooth metal rod in the other loop. Measure to the insides of the loops. It will get you in the ballpark with a little twisting to fine tune.


I did this, and the timing and the tiller, and the ATA was pretty much spot on. Only thing is, I still cant get mor than 55# out of the 60# i should have.
And every time i try to twist or untwist, I end up with soemthing wierd.



XP35 said:


> 5) if the bottom cam is 5mm off the timing hole, and the top cam is on the hole, and I have the right draw weight, witch cable do i twist, and witch way do i twist it to get the cams synced and still have the draw weight intact?
> And the other way around to. Again, forget the marks 'til you're done. They will be very close to being on when you are finished, but check sync and timing with a measuring tape and not those darned "timing marks". You'll get a lot less frustrated.


OK.



XP35 said:


> I know this is a lot of questions, and maybe tupid ones to, but I'm inches from giving up, so please help me:-(
> 
> I hope you get it, bud. It drove me nuts at first, too, but you CAN get it and get it right. When this is done you will have learned how to time and sync a finicky system. The rest will all seem like child's play afterward!


I'm trying, mate. I'm really trying....


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## Hoyt Thompson

The top of the axle vs the center of the axle will not give you 1" worth of difference. the axle is the 1/8 th inch steel rod that the cams spin on.

If you are only at 55# on a 60# set up then something is not short enough.

The BC is the one that puts the preload on the limbs so it should be shorter would be my guess without seeing it.

Forget about the "holes" for now. The three things you are looking for are correct draw length, correct draw weight, and correct sync/draw timing. 
If your tiller is pretty much on the the cams will pretty good in sync, now if the draw stops hit at the same time then you are more than halfway there. Check your poundage and DL get them into spec while keeping an eye on your timing/sync and you should be there or dang close. Then shoot it and creep tune it and you will be "tuned"


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## skullerud

Yippii!!!!
:hello2::jazzmatazzes::hello2:
:cheers:
:hello2::jazzmatazzes::hello2:


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## skullerud

as you might have guessed, I got it at last.
the wall is rock solid, the ATA is right, the tiller is even, the Draw length is right, and the BH is right, and I even got the draw wight right.
Only thing is that the timingholes dont match up as good as I would like them to. But thats maybe something I shouldnt care about, or what?


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## XP35

No, the holes usually don't show the same after timing and creep tuning. With Hoyt's riser geometry (the rest and nock point higher than center of the riser) the top cam is often ahead of the lower cam. So now just use the holes to see if anyting moves in the future.


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## HoytFlinger

I sent my bow off to Hoyt to replace limbs and string/cables. When I got it back the specs were way off. I did some tuning of my own and now the DL is right where it needs to be for me, the DW is dead on, the tiller is even, but my BH is about 5 7/8 and the ATA is almost 1/4 long. It shoots great though. I have 27" draw so the BH doesn't really bother me being 5 7/8. I have a few twists left in the cables, but none left in the string. Will I gain anything by trying to get the ATA and BH correct or should I just leave it where it is?


----------



## Nameless Hunter

First, this is a great web site. Never new it existed until this year. I've hunted with bows for 20 years but admittedly have only made half assed efforts at tuning and bow setup until now. I finally got off my but and made a draw board for setting up a Trykon XL I bought earlier this year. The bow tuned up well using the excellent method provided here and am getting 1/4" groups using the 12 yard range inside my apt.. 

However, I'm also getting an axle to axle measurement of 36 3/4" - not exactly close to the Hoyt spec. of 36 7/16", and I've twisted the string as far as I dare. Should I be concerned or just accept the the difference as it is? I am still using the factory cables but had the string replaced (as a warranty issue) with a new Fuse string in March.


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## bassman409

f linger:
You have no problem because to fix your dimensions you have to add twists to all , cables and string.


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## bassman409

Motu:
Your cables will be the thing to tighten to shorten the a-a. They probably have stretched as much as your old string did. How is the bows DL? Does it match the cam DL?


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## Nameless Hunter

Cool. I had considered shortening both cables, but the instructions about shortening the buss cable to lengthen the A2A and shortening the control cable to shorten the A2A had me a ltltle confused about whether shortening both would have any real effect on A2A and draw length. My DL is a little long - about 29 1/4" (spec. is 29").

Thanks.


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## lungbuster14

Im sorry guys but im am very new to this archery thing and i dont know all the lingo so reading that directions were a little confusing. Now i no that my top cam on my lazertec is under roated and it cable is not laying flat in the groove. Can someone give me step by step directions on how to fix this, ive read those steps a hundered times and still dont get it. Im ordering a press from cableas tommrrow so ill be able to start the fine tuning by the end of the week. Im very sorry guys that i dont understand this but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Dan,


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## jerrym

*cable glide?*

are the cables on or off the glide during the draw stop method?


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## wblackfin

lungbuster14 said:


> Im sorry guys but im am very new to this archery thing and i dont know all the lingo so reading that directions were a little confusing. Now i no that my top cam on my lazertec is under roated and it cable is not laying flat in the groove. Can someone give me step by step directions on how to fix this, ive read those steps a hundered times and still dont get it. Im ordering a press from cableas tommrrow so ill be able to start the fine tuning by the end of the week. Im very sorry guys that i dont understand this but any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks Dan,


Dan,
Javi's directions pretty much do lay out the method step by step. But if you are not familiar with the terminology it would be confusing. I would suggest that you try to do some reading to learn the terminology otherwise it is like trying to understand a foreign language. The other thing you might want to do is to ask specific questions about the parts of the proses that you don't understand. Like that you are likely to get more replies to you Inquiry.


----------



## lungbuster14

wblackfin said:


> Dan,
> Javi's directions pretty much do lay out the method step by step. But if you are not familiar with the terminology it would be confusing. I would suggest that you try to do some reading to learn the terminology otherwise it is like trying to understand a foreign language. The other thing you might want to do is to ask specific questions about the parts of the proses that you don't understand. Like that you are likely to get more replies to you Inquiry.


Ok how about i say what i think how to do it and you guys correct me that will clear up anything i didnt understand. I geuss the first step would be to take all the measure ments like axel to axel brace height, then put the module on letter E casue thats wat is say in the specs, then put the bow in a press, take the string off the cam and take 10 twist off, then take the buss cable take some twist out of that so its 1/4 inch longer then specs, then take the control cable twist/untwist till the string lines up with the ref holes, then the cams should be in sync. Then to adjust the draw stop timing i either put twist in the buss or the control. I rather shorten the control because since my DL is already short i could always make it bigger on the module. After all this is done twist the string back regular DL spec. And then all i have to do is put the module back to my DL and everything should be good?

Im sorry im being a big pain, but the closes respectable shop is almost an hour away i dont have the time to go and i rather do it myself and learn but i dont want to mess up.

thanks again, Dan


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## wblackfin

Dan, Sounds like you've got it for the most part! Remember to bottom out your limbs first.



> then take the control cable twist/untwist till the string lines up with the ref holes


Yes, also having an even tiller with limbs bottomed out will also confirm sync. Your string may or may not cover the holes but should be equal distance from them.



> Then to adjust the draw stop timing i either put twist in the buss or the control. I rather shorten the control because since my DL is already short


Well, you state that your DL is already short and you are under rotated at draw stop. If you shorten the control to time, you will make your DL shorter and lessen the timing rotation. "If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or *untwist* the control". "Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. *Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight*." You probably will be better off twisting the buss. Remember you want your actual DL to be close to the specified DL for the cam setting you are tuning at when done twisting the string back up to spec at the end.


> then all i have to do is put the module back to my DL and everything should be good?


yes

When I first timed and synced my bow it took a few attempts and suggestions from this forum to get it correct. If you have problems post your concerns and I'm sure help will come your way.

Good luck


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## lungbuster14

On my bow i think im taking the tiller measurement in the right place but my tiller on the bottom is only like a little less then 1/16 of an inch off but the ref holes are not even close to being equal distance apart. Could less then 1/16 of an inch have that much effect?


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## wblackfin

lungbuster14 said:


> On my bow i think im taking the tiller measurement in the right place but my tiller on the bottom is only like a little less then 1/16 of an inch off but the ref holes are not even close to being equal distance apart. Could less then 1/16 of an inch have that much effect?



If the bow is shooting well with consistency it all depends on how close to the elusive "perfect" tune you want to strive for. When you get your press and begin tuning you may find that when the string is close to being equal in regards to the ref holes that the tiller evens out. 
When I tuned my bow for the first time I started off with the string just on the edge of one hole and about 1/8th away from the other. My top tiller was about 3/16ths longer than the bottom. After doing the "Javi" both strings were on top of the holes and the tiller was off by about 1/32nd, for me that was good enough. But in addition to getting the cams synced, I got my DL in spec for my module setting and when I got the draw stop timing set the bow felt much better. Nice back wall, less vibration and I felt that it shot more consistent!

You should be measuring tiller from the *inside *of the string to the limb just at the point that it goes into the pocket.


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## Mr_MerlinMax

*Pictures*

I now this thread had very good pictures before. Where have they gone? Can someone please repost them?


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## wblackfin

> You should be measuring tiller from the inside of the string to the limb just at the point that it goes into the pocket.


Correction: It really does not matter whether you measure from the inside or outside of the string for the tiller as long as you do it the same for the top and bottom limbs. I must have had brace on my mind:teeth:.


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## WidowMaker

I need to see some pictures


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## XP35

WidowMaker said:


> I need to see some pictures


OF WHAT?:confused3:


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## wblackfin

Mr_MerlinMax said:


> I now this thread had very good pictures before. Where have they gone? Can someone please repost them?


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## WidowMaker

Thanks for posting the pics


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## dukpa

*Hoyt Cam 1/2 sizes*

Hi! Javi,

Can you tell me the the reason for difference in cam sizes? In 2005 they were numbered alphabetically and now they are numbered numerically.

I plan to switch my Cam (size B) from my 2005 UltraElite XT4000 to my 2007 ProElite XT3500 (which has #1 cams). Cn I use the Hoyt tune charts to set up the bows after the change.

Look forward to your advice.

Thanks


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## Thib454SS

*Trykon tuning*

Just got some Bucknasty strings and cables on my trykon. Followed the directions and this is what I end up with:
-Tiller is even
-Draw stop timing is right on
-Buss cable is twisted to the high heavens
-Control cable is barely twisted at all
-Max draw weight is about 3 pounds low, not sure how to check DL.
-ATA is 1/8" long
Can anyone some explain to me why the buss cable is so twisted yet I still can't get my DW up. What the hell am I doing wrong.:embara:Thanks.


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## bassman409

You have to set the DL by tightening the string. If your cam is 29 inchs then when you draw an arrow with a mark at 29 inches it should be at 1 3/4 inches past the deepest part of the grip. Check by looking in a mirror if you have no help.
When you tighten the string it will reduce the a-a a bit and maybe the DW but it has to be done to get tuned and quiet. You may have to start again with the a-a at 1/8 inch over spec because of the parallel limbs. Dont forget to check DW after setting the a-a , it will go down a couple pounds during the string twisting. If you find it low then just twist both the cables the same amount and the DW will increase, and also the sync and timing will stay close!


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## Thib454SS

*Did the twist*

Measured my DL + adjusted = one sweet shooting trykon!:wink: Everything is back to spec. Bow shoots better than ever. Should I be concerned if the control is barely twisted yet the buss very twisted? I guess if shoots good you cares.:rock-on:


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## drooster

I have read most all the posts to this thread and am not clear about the difference between synchronization and timing. Years ago I thought I new that, but now I have forgotten. Seems to me that they are one in the same. If the wheels are timed (ie they both bottom out at full draw at exactly the same time), that they must also be in synchroniztion for that to happen. Someone clear me up on this because I am sure I must be wrong. thanks


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## Archersteve

drooster said:


> I have read most all the posts to this thread and am not clear about the difference between synchronization and timing. Years ago I thought I new that, but now I have forgotten. Seems to me that they are one in the same. If the wheels are timed (ie they both bottom out at full draw at exactly the same time), that they must also be in synchronization for that to happen. Someone clear me up on this because I am sure I must be wrong. thanks


Generically speaking, all cam/wheel/whatever systems included, Synchronization is getting the cams to turn over at the same exact time.

Generically speaking, all cam/wheel/whatever systems included, Timing is getting the cams to stop rotating at full draw at the same time (at the wall).

If the tiller is even, and because we are forced to shoot the arrow from above dead center of the bow, the Sync and Timing are never quite correct. So, for 99% of us, if we set tiller dead even to start, than adjust the cables as necessary to set the timing at the wall, then we are close enough and the bow shoots extremely well.

For the remaining 1%, we may need to tweak the tiller (tiller tuning) and readjust the timing, to compensate for the physics of the bow. Unfortunately, adjusting one impacts the other, so you might find yourself chasing you own tail.

So, for 99% of us, Synchronization and Timing are the same. For the other 1%, there is a tiny bit of difference.:wink:


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## drooster

thank you ArcherSteve. Great explanation. Seems like because of this imperfection (ie we cant shoot through our arm thus we dont draw from the middle of the string) there is no way that a bow can have the eccentrics start at the same time and finish at the same time unless maybe jacking with the tiller can accomplish that. If that is the case, I can try that. Short of that however, which is more important? Starting together or finishing together? The start of the launch would be when you are at full draw and the finish being right at the point of arrow release. Boy my Mathews seems so much simpler than my Hoyt so far.....


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## JAVI

drooster said:


> thank you ArcherSteve. Great explanation. Seems like because of this imperfection (ie we cant shoot through our arm thus we dont draw from the middle of the string) there is no way that a bow can have the eccentrics start at the same time and finish at the same time unless maybe jacking with the tiller can accomplish that. If that is the case, I can try that. Short of that however, which is more important? Starting together or finishing together? The start of the launch would be when you are at full draw and the finish being right at the point of arrow release. Boy my Mathews seems so much simpler than my Hoyt so far.....



I’ve pretty much stopped answering questions on Hoyt but thought I’d visit this one…


Because of the design of the hybrid cam, it is possible to tune both or either one separately...

Take a look at the routing of the cables and how each affect the cams, then you will see why you can have the cams hit the draw stops at the same time and be completely out of rotational sync… or have them in sync but not hit the stops at the same time…


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## drooster

Ok, I know you have spent a lot of time one these hybrids. I have read from the beginning pretty much to the end and its a huge thread. Maybe I missed something but I am very clear on the timing. that is pretty simple. I am still not clear on the synch., ie, how dow I know they are in synch. Is it the fact the the cams are beginning the draw cycle (at brace height) at the same point in their rotation? IF so how do I know they are at the same point. I know that the cam1/2 have the two holes and I understant the cables must be equidistant from those holes, but the vector cams and I believe that only the bottom cam has marks on it and you just have to have the cable (bus or control - not sure - dont have my bow here) within those marks - which are about 3/4 inch apart. Thats not a precise marking point system, unless I am missing something. Therefore, Javi, are you going to tell me to just bottom out the limbs and adjust the cams so the the tiller is even and that is how to synch them? thank you mystro.....


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## JAVI

drooster said:


> Therefore, Javi, are you going to tell me to just bottom out the limbs and adjust the cams so the the tiller is even and that is how to synch them? thank you mystro.....


 Yep... That's exactly how I do it... since the cams or rather the cam and the control wheel... are not equidistant in circumference Hoyt and others kindly gave us a small area that is equidistant from the axle holes... this is at the point the string departs the cam at rest... so measuring tiller with the limbs bottomed is the easiest method. I will leave it with this bit of advice... if the string is too loose or too tight it will play heck with the rotational sync. Tuning a hybrid is a balancing act and not that difficult if you sit and study how the cables and string affect the cam rotation...

I'm not going to argue this with anyone, it is a proven fact and I have no reason to defend my findings... folks can take it for what it cost ya' or disregard it as they see fit. 

In fact I've asked that these posts be removed several times. It isn't that I don't want to help... I just don't want to be pushed into defending what amounts to free advice...


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## drooster

thanks for your advice and time Javi. I am going to follow your recommendations.


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## Archersteve

drooster said:


> thank you ArcherSteve. Great explanation. Seems like because of this imperfection (ie we cant shoot through our arm thus we dont draw from the middle of the string) there is no way that a bow can have the eccentrics start at the same time and finish at the same time unless maybe jacking with the tiller can accomplish that. If that is the case, I can try that. Short of that however, which is more important? Starting together or finishing together? The start of the launch would be when you are at full draw and the finish being right at the point of arrow release. Boy my Mathews seems so much simpler than my Hoyt so far.....


JAVI is a good man, and now that he has spoken, and you have accepted his advice, you will not be led far astray. :thumbs_up

I and JAVI agree on 99% of everything, but not completely on this one. So to answer your question, if you start by bottoming out the cams when you start the tuning, and then you time at full draw (starting at the launch per your explanation), you will be well within the tolerances of the system.

By the way, the solo cam, Mathews or the copies, have timing issues as well. Yes, I know what they say, but they do. If the cam is not started at the correct point of rotation than you get excessive vertical nock movement on the shot.

No cam, and I mean NO cam, is without some need for timing or tuning. Some are just a little more forgiving when they are slightly out of tune.


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## drooster

you mean bottoming out the limbs not the cams. correct ArcherSteve?


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## Archersteve

drooster said:


> you mean bottoming out the limbs not the cams. correct ArcherSteve?


Oops, that's what happens when you are responding during a work break and thinking fast.

You are entirely correct.


----------



## Lunker Hunter

Well thanks to JAVi i finally just got my Reflex Highlander in proper timing,god i was going crazy over this and had read this before but being lazy:embara: ,i didn't follow directions.well i finally decided to read carefully and do as he said and i got it :wink: ,Thanks again JAVI.


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## Archersteve

Lunker Hunter said:


> Well thanks to JAVi i finally just got my Reflex Highlander in proper timing,god i was going crazy over this and had read this before but being lazy:embara: ,i didn't follow directions.well i finally decided to read carefully and do as he said and i got it :wink: ,Thanks again JAVI.


You know what is really great, JAVI's post, and his occational help, is done even though he now represents a competing company, not HOYT or any of their cams.

JAVI is a stand up guy, send him a personal PM thanking him when his help is usefull.:thumbs_up


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## Lunker Hunter

Wow I didn't know that thanks for the input.I might get the Bowtech Equalizer but im still thinking about it.


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## lungbuster14

Hey guys i got a question? Now when you are adjusting the cam sync and you twist the control cable to get the cables to line up with the holes but when you get to doing to draw stop timing and you have to untwist the control wont you just mess up the cam sync again?


----------



## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> Hey guys i got a question? Now when you are adjusting the cam sync and you twist the control cable to get the cables to line up with the holes but when you get to doing to draw stop timing and you have to untwist the control wont you just mess up the cam sync again?


You are correct. Re-read the procedure and you will see that the holes are a starting point only. The important part, if you have done everything else by the book, is the final draw stop timing.


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## lungbuster14

I no the holes are a starting point but in the end wont the cables be equall distance apart from the ref holes?


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## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> I no the holes are a starting point but in the end wont the cables be equall distance apart from the ref holes?


If, and I do mean if, the limbs were exact, down to a fraction of a MM. And if the limbs were balance to within a fraction of an ounce to each other, and if........

_In practice, the reference holes will usually not be equidistant apart._


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## lungbuster14

Archersteve my limbs arent exactly on my tiller is off by 1/16 of an inch (speaking of tiller how do i adjust it) as for my cables and the ref holes one if on while the other is really off.


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## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> Archersteve my limbs arent exactly on my tiller is off by 1/16 of an inch (speaking of tiller how do i adjust it) as for my cables and the ref holes one if on while the other is really off.


Lungbuster, You should go back to the very beginning of the procedure and start over.:sad:

First, the bow is tuned with the limbs bottomed out. With both limbs bottomed out, the tiller should be the same. If it is not, and if it is less than 1/16th inch, than you can adjust the tiller by unscrewing the limb on the side that has the lesser tiller. Do this a quarter of a turn at a time and remeasure both. This brings the bow into equilibrium and straightens things out. This will probably help on you reference hole "issue".:idea1:

Second, you are too concerned about the reference holes.

Third, if you still have troubles believing me, PM Crackers and send your bow to him. His cost to tune it for you is minimal, his results will make you happy.
:thumbs_up.


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## lungbuster14

ok well know i feel stupid. Ive been looking at the wrong hole on the cam all this time. So now i got that issue straightened out my tiller is dead even and even though i know the ref holes really dont matter there are also dead on. Now my problem is the draw stop timeing. Should i still worry about the cam sync or just go straight to the draw stop timing?


----------



## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> ok well know i feel stupid. Ive been looking at the wrong hole on the cam all this time. So now i got that issue straightened out my tiller is dead even and even though i know the ref holes really dont matter there are also dead on. Now my problem is the draw stop timeing. Should i still worry about the cam sync or just go straight to the draw stop timing?


Don't feel stupid, the first time you tune a new bow, it is complex. Tune 4 or 5 and it is easy, tune 40 0r 50 and it is boring.

Go straight to the draw stop timing now. The sync will take care of itself.:thumbs_up

Now, I've got a new Bowtec 101st that is kicking my ......... Never mind, different thread.


----------



## Charley B

*Thank you sooo much Javi!!!*

Man this Is incredible how much this tuning method worked for my bow! 
I pretty sure It's the verry best way to have cam&half set.
Your method Is the book of revelation for the Hoyt shooter! :darkbeer:
Thank's for sharing!

Charley B

''sorry my english, I'm a frenchman from Québec, Canada''


----------



## JAVI

Thanks


----------



## CaptPete

First off I want to thank Javi & Archersteve for all their advice and input. This info is priceless!!

Now I have a couple of questions. I put new string and cables on the bow. The timing, A2A, & tiller are all dead, with the DL 1/8" to long( I just need to give the string another twist or so). The DW is 1lb. low( that might chnge when I get the dl set). The big issue I have is that the brace is 1/4" long. Is the brace being off a problem and how would I go about fixing it?


Again a big *Thank You* to Javi & Archersteve.

Kevin


----------



## XP35

By the time you twist the string to adjust the DL, Pete, you just may end up correcting the BH as well. Cam rotation does change the BH.:nod: And remember that the specs are not carved in stone, just written on paper.:tongue:


----------



## Archersteve

CaptPete said:


> First off I want to thank Javi & Archersteve for all their advice and input. This info is priceless!!
> 
> Now I have a couple of questions. I put new string and cables on the bow. The timing, A2A, & tiller are all dead, with the DL 1/8" to long( I just need to give the string another twist or so). The DW is 1lb. low( that might chnge when I get the dl set). The big issue I have is that the brace is 1/4" long. Is the brace being off a problem and how would I go about fixing it?
> 
> 
> Again a big *Thank You* to Javi & Archersteve.
> 
> Kevin


Kevin,

_The first think I want to do is agree with XP35, the specifications are not etched in stone._ Nevertheless, do me a favor first and double check all of the measurements. Next, what is your draw length?

Long draw lengths, like 30"+ increase the A2A very slightly, so in bringing the A2A back down, you increase brace height. So, first check the measurements and tell us your draw length.

Next, twisting down the draw length by 1/8" will not increase, but decrease your max poundage, but not by much.

*If everything checks out*, than there appears to be a trend that I can see. With the draw weight a little below the max listed, and the brace height a little long, but with your tiller dead on, it could be that your matched limbs are just a little on the light side.

This is not really a problem, and the extra little brace height will actually make the bow shoot better. I have a Trykon XL still that is that way, and it shoots lights out, but it is a little long on the BH and a little low on the DW.

If this is not a problem with you, than shoot and enjoy.

But, if you feel you must have the proper BH, and proper DW, than you must go back to step one and this time adjust the A2A to be a little longer, perhaps try 3/16". When you follow the rest of the steps, the BH and DW will come back and the bow will still shoots lights out.:thumbs_up


----------



## xcount

*Where do I find this PPT of your instructions?*

I was hoping you could direct me to the PPT of your instructions? Thanks for the info.


----------



## Archersteve

*See JAVI's post # 2 in this thread.*



xcount said:


> I was hoping you could direct me to the PPT of your instructions? Thanks for the info.


I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. We had pictures to reference, and I thought that JAVI had them posted in this thread, but now I can't find them.

So, I tried to find my printed copy of what JAVI posted, and I can't find them either. So......

Go th Post # 2 in this thread and you will see the following by JAVI.

"To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out). 

Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.

At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec. "

I assume your question refers to my instructions "But, if you feel you must have the proper BH, and proper DW, than you must go back to step one and this time adjust the A2A to be a little longer, perhaps try 3/16". When you follow the rest of the steps, the BH and DW will come back and the bow will still shoots lights out."

Modify the following: "To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts)" by making the axle to axle 7/16" too long. Remember, what we are doing is not following the rules exactly, but changing the specifications for your bow. So the extra 3/16" may be too much; I would not do more than that.

Now follow the rest of the instructions as indicated by JAVI: "The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out). 

Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight."

I hope this helps, but remember that you are going to have to do a little trial and error now to find the spot that will make you happy.:wink:


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

The picturees you are looking for Steve can be found in post #246


----------



## CaptPete

Archersteve said:


> Kevin,
> 
> _The first think I want to do is agree with XP35, the specifications are not etched in stone._ Nevertheless, do me a favor first and double check all of the measurements. Next, what is your draw length?
> 
> Long draw lengths, like 30"+ increase the A2A very slightly, so in bringing the A2A back down, you increase brace height. So, first check the measurements and tell us your draw length.
> 
> Next, twisting down the draw length by 1/8" will not increase, but decrease your max poundage, but not by much.
> 
> *If everything checks out*, than there appears to be a trend that I can see. With the draw weight a little below the max listed, and the brace height a little long, but with your tiller dead on, it could be that your matched limbs are just a little on the light side.
> 
> This is not really a problem, and the extra little brace height will actually make the bow shoot better. I have a Trykon XL still that is that way, and it shoots lights out, but it is a little long on the BH and a little low on the DW.
> 
> If this is not a problem with you, than shoot and enjoy.
> 
> But, if you feel you must have the proper BH, and proper DW, than you must go back to step one and this time adjust the A2A to be a little longer, perhaps try 3/16". When you follow the rest of the steps, the BH and DW will come back and the bow will still shoots lights out.:thumbs_up



I started over adding the 3/16" and that threw off the measurements even worse. So I started all over again(man it can get frustrating at times) using the exact steps in Javi's post( 1/4" over A2A). Here is what I have now:

DW - 1lb. heavy
DL - dead on( 28")
A2A - 1/32" short
BH - 1/8" long
Tiller is even(limbs bottomed out)
Timing - dead on

I don't know if I need to mess with it more or call it close enough. If I mess with it more, what would do to change those items marked in red? Is it even worth messing with...these are new cables & string with less than 10 shots them.

Kevin


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## Archersteve

Pete, if it were me, I'd call this perfect and move on to shooting.

:thumbs_up​


CaptPete said:


> I started over adding the 3/16" and that threw off the measurements even worse. So I started all over again(man it can get frustrating at times) using the exact steps in Javi's post( 1/4" over A2A). Here is what I have now:
> 
> DW - 1lb. heavy
> DL - dead on( 28")
> A2A - 1/32" short
> BH - 1/8" long
> Tiller is even(limbs bottomed out)
> Timing - dead on
> 
> I don't know if I need to mess with it more or call it close enough. If I mess with it more, what would do to change those items marked in red? Is it even worth messing with...these are new cables & string with less than 10 shots them.
> 
> Kevin


----------



## CaptPete

Archersteve said:


> Pete, if it were me, I'd call this perfect and move on to shooting.
> 
> :thumbs_up​


That sounds good to me.  I was starting to get really frustarted. :embara:

Thanks for your help. It is *greatly* appreciated.

Kevin


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

I have been thinking that I would put together a DVD video of tuning the cam and 1/2. Maybe seeing this done could help some of you out. Who would be interested in this?
Right now I could do it on my Trykon XL. If I could get a couple of other bows I could show it on other hoyts but right noew it would be limited to the Trykon which would be enough as all cam and 1/2s are basiclly the same.
It would be spring before I could do it but I thought I would ask to see if anyone would be interested.


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## Archersteve

There are 730 post on this thread, and I don't even know how many hits or reads there have been on it.

It would be great if you could help those with Hoyts. It is always easier to understand when you can see the work yourself.:thumbs_up

Now, how many could you sell? I don't have a clue.:confused2:




Hoyt Thompson said:


> I have been thinking that I would put together a DVD video of tuning the cam and 1/2. Maybe seeing this done could help some of you out. Who would be interested in this?
> Right now I could do it on my Trykon XL. If I could get a couple of other bows I could show it on other hoyts but right noew it would be limited to the Trykon which would be enough as all cam and 1/2s are basiclly the same.
> It would be spring before I could do it but I thought I would ask to see if anyone would be interested.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Well seeing I work in Propane it will be a few months before I could get it laid out and done. The dvd should not be a long one and I would sell them to mainly cover the shipping and cost of the disc. I am going to wait to see if JAVI has any input before I dedicate my self to do this. It would only cover the basics and then they would have to figure out what shot better for them as far as creep tuning and so forth. 
I believe I could go thru the steps of timing,
syncing,
ATA,
BH,
cam lean for the static yoke users, some will even be able to slightly adjust center shot with the static yoke,
And brush over the creep tuning method.


I figured the same thing, That people just were not getting it. Most have and some just can't get it right. Even I get it messed up from time to time and that is because I get focused too much on one particular aspect of the process. In fact I had to call in some help the last time because I had my head in my butt and could not make the spec. weight. Live and learn.
I feel once they see that both cams can be moved independantly and also in unison they will be much more confident in tuning the Cam and 1/2 system. 
Let me preface this before I get started that I am no pro and may have to ask for JAVIs (seeing he is like the JEDI master of this)critique before I have a finished copy to send out.


----------



## Archersteve

Hoyt Thompson said:


> Well seeing I work in Propane it will be a few months before I could get it laid out and done. The dvd should not be a long one and I would sell them to mainly cover the shipping and cost of the disc. I am going to wait to see if JAVI has any input before I dedicate my self to do this. It would only cover the basics and then they would have to figure out what shot better for them as far as creep tuning and so forth.
> I believe I could go thru the steps of timing,
> syncing,
> ATA,
> BH,
> cam lean for the static yoke users, some will even be able to slightly adjust center shot with the static yoke,
> And brush over the creep tuning method.
> 
> 
> I figured the same thing, That people just were not getting it. Most have and some just can't get it right. Even I get it messed up from time to time and that is because I get focused too much on one particular aspect of the process. In fact I had to call in some help the last time because I had my head in my butt and could not make the spec. weight. Live and learn.
> I feel once they see that both cams can be moved independantly and also in unison they will be much more confident in tuning the Cam and 1/2 system.
> Let me preface this before I get started that I am no pro and may have to ask for JAVIs (seeing he is like the JEDI master of this)critique before I have a finished copy to send out.


Give Mike, aka JAVI, a PM. He is a great guy, and his help would be valuable.:thumbs_up


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## CaptPete

I think a DVD would be a help to get people started. The problems I have are deciding whether to twist the buss cable or untwist the control cable when setting the timing. To me it's trial & error to get the bow set to *ALL* the specs. That's when it becomes frustrating. I am most definitly a novice when it come to tuning, but the procedure that Javi layed out is simple enough to follow. I think it's the trial & error part that gets people and I'm not sure you can teach that part. I know the more you do the better you would get and the easier it would be. 

Kevin


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## Hoyt Thompson

Yes I have spoken with him on the phone before. He seems like a library of archery information.
i will PM him soon. Just trying to make sure I have everything I need to make a Video of this. I don't have the capabilities anymore. I got my "people" working on it! HAHAHA. :chortle:
I will know soon but I only lack one piece that should not be hard to aquire.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

CaptPete said:


> I think a DVD would be a help to get people started. The problems I have are deciding whether to twist the buss cable or untwist the control cable when setting the timing. To me it's trial & error to get the bow set to *ALL* the specs. That's when it becomes frustrating. I am most definitly a novice when it come to tuning, but the procedure that Javi layed out is simple enough to follow. I think it's the trial & error part that gets people and I'm not sure you can teach that part. I know the more you do the better you would get and the easier it would be.
> 
> Kevin


See in the video I am thinking of making you will be able to set it quickly cause the way the cams are built. I have done this enough now to show you in the video what needs to be done. I have a system built on top of the information that JAVI gave everyone. I am willing to show this to everyone so they can get their mind wrapped around it. The one thing that seems to escape people is that in the end you will have to shoot and tweak because no matter how well you built your draw board it is no replacement for each persons shooting form and style. I am simply going to show you how to get close and the archer will have to tweak it from there.

As far as specs go people get to tied up in the written word of Hoyt. Spec on paper just get you close. The main spec you should be looking for are the correct Draw length, the target draw weight whether it be the bows rated maximum or a custom target weight that you are shooting for. As far as tuning goes you are looking for a quiet, minimal shock, consistent shot. 
This is acquired in the creep tuning. Shoot it regular then shoot it pulling hard in the wall. Any difference in point of impact then it is back to twisting.
It is a time consuming process and it is why I solely use 452X so I do not have to do this week in and week out.
Now that I have written this out I may have to add to this video with a walk thru of the creep tuning as well.
I am going to start writing out a "to do list" for this video cause I can already see that it will be needed.


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## Hoyt Thompson

Well in talking to ArcherSteve and JAVI I think that the video is a go.

Before I do this I would want to know the interest from the members here. I don't want to sound mean here but just making this video for 2 people would be kind of a drag.
After bouncing the idea off of some friends and my sister that will be helping me get this together I have come up with a rough idea what this will under take. Shipping will determine the final out come of price and everyone I talked to thought that 10 dollars tyd would be fair. 

I need feedback on this guys. Right now I am laying everything out that I will need to get this done and am gonna wait before I actually do this. I will be waiting to here from everyone.


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## Archersteve

^


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## Hoyt Thompson

Here you go guys add you opinion to this poll and we will see what it boils down to.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=613952


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## lungbuster14

Ok guys heres the story. I work in the lodge at Dicks so i got access to a press. I went there the other night to finally tune my bow. This is how my bow was set up before i started tuning my tiller was dead even, cabeles exactly over the ref holes, shooting perfect bullets holes threw paper, and the top cam was under rotated. What i did was i put two complete twist in my buss cable and it brought my top cam around and right now im a just barely under rotated. I tried paper tuning it but i couldnt get a consistent tear in the paper, i didnt know if that was because of out of the 3 arrows i had only one that had all 3 fletching in perfect condition or watever it was so i just went home and refletched my arrows. When i got home i discoverd that my tiller was off by a little and the the cabeles were off on the ref holes. So i fixed tiller (to fix the tiller all i did was loosen the limb bolt on the side with the less tiller, i dont know if that the right way of doing it or not but it fixed my tiller problem) and the cabeles are still not lined up with the ref holes and i noticed that my draw length was about 3/4 inch to long. Since i shot my bow with the module on letter B when i moved it up to letter A its still a 1/4 to long. So what do i do guys im going back either tommrow or saturday to finsh up this tuning what do you guys suggest i do?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Ok I would copy the instructions from this sight on the timing/sync and then copy the creep tuning process. Print them and take them with you. Should help you out.
When you tune make sure you are set to the D setting on your cams. Some are different check Hoyts tune charts to find your particular bow to set it right. you can always set the draw back to your draw when you are done. Make sure you bottom out the limbs as you said you adjusted them.


----------



## lungbuster14

Yeah im just going to do that. Just a quick question, how many turns can i back the limbs out?


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## lungbuster14

Another dumb question for the axel to axel measuremtn do i take it from the inside of the axel bolts, or the outside, or in the middle of the bolts? And where do i take the DL measuremnt? thanks dan


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## Hoyt Thompson

First Hoyt does not recomend shooting a bow with the bolt more than 10 turns out. By bottoming out I meant to tighten them down all the way
Second it does not really matter where you measure them as long as you are measureing them. I use bottom of the top to top of the bottom. The specs are a a guide line and not meant for exact tuning. I repeat the specs are a guide line and not mreant for exact tuning. The specs you are most concerned with should be DL, DW, even tiller, and exact timing/sync.


----------



## lungbuster14

Glad we cleared that up i thought bottoming them out was taking the weight off the limbs. Where do i take the DL measurement from?


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## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> Glad we cleared that up i thought bottoming them out was taking the weight off the limbs. Where do i take the DL measurement from?


Draw length will require help form someone else, but you need to mark from the deepest part of the grip directly up to the shelf. Draw the arrow and have a friend carefully mark on the arrow. Let down and measure from the deepest part of the grove of the nock to the mark on the arrow, than add 1-3/4" to that. That is your draw length. Of course, if you have an arrow already marked, your friend simply reads the reading.

I use a draw board so I don't need a friend (that sounds wrong).:wink:

Brace height is measured from the center of the string to the deepest part of the grip.

The rest of the directions are correctly given by JAVI, so print out the first page and the pictures on post 246 before you go.

One other thing, you will need to relocate your rest after getting everything correct. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO START OFF SHOOTING BULLET HOLES WHEN YOU ARE DONE, THE REST STILL NEEDS TO BE ADJUSTED.:secret::secret::secret:

A2A is measured from the top of the axle on top to the top of the axle on the bottom.


----------



## Grand River Zip

*Ah, the learning curve*

the bow: PowerTec XT1000 50-60 lb left handed. 
I am helping a buddy get new strings on his bow. We ordered the lengths I have underlined and bold printed (below) from the Hoyt website.

I am loosing 5 lbs (only getting 55 lbs) when I get them timed properly. I am going to go back and start from scratch again tonight, but I must be missing something somewhere. It states a 34 1/4 AtA, so I will start with 34.5 AtA after I take a bunch of twists out of the string. Then follow Javi from there. I do have a press, and a draw board. I have gotten decent at getting my binary cam bows dialed in, but this is the first hybrid I have played with.

From Hoyt http://www.hoyt.com/customer_service/hoyt_tune_charts.php?page=06_powertec.php
Cam / Wheel % Letoff Brace Height Axle to Axle Draw Length Module Position Base Cam String Control Cable Buss Cable Cam & 1/2 Adjustable

65/75 7 3/16 34 1/16 25 E C&1/2 #1 47.5 37.75 35.5 
65/75 7 3/16 34 1/8 26 E C&1/2 #2 48.5 38 35.75 
65/75 7 3/8 34 27 E C&1/2 #3 49.5 38.25 35.75 
65/75 7 9/16 33 3/8 28 E C&1/2 #4 50.5 38.25 35.5 
65/75 7 1/2 33 5/8 29 E C&1/2 #5 52 38.5 35.75 
65/75 7 9/16 34 1/8 30 E C&1/2 #6 53.5 39.25 36.25 
*65/75 7 11/16 34 1/4 31 E C&1/2 #7 55 39.75 36.25 *


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## Hoyt Thompson

Don't worry too much about exact ATA it is just a referemce measurement to get you in the ball park. 
If you have the timing and sync in place then put an equal amount of twists in both BC and CC till your poundage is a little high. Then double check the timing and sync. Adjust as nessacary. You need to put a little more squeeze on the bow. 
Then focus on the BowString to get the DL set right and the poundage will come down a little.


----------



## Grand River Zip

Hoyt Thompson said:


> Don't worry too much about exact ATA it is just a referemce measurement to get you in the ball park.
> If you have the timing and sync in place then put an equal amount of twists in both BC and CC till your poundage is a little high. Then double check the timing and sync. Adjust as nessacary. You need to put a little more squeeze on the bow.
> Then focus on the BowString to get the DL set right and the poundage will come down a little.



That is what I worked on last night. I am still about 2 lbs low, BH and AtA are real close. I must have gotten strings/cables that are long. I have twisted more than it should, it's really tight......


----------



## Archersteve

Grand River Zip said:


> That is what I worked on last night.  I am still about 2 lbs low, BH and AtA are real close. I must have gotten strings/cables that are long. I have twisted more than it should, it's really tight......


I find that you can really get a lot of twist in the strings without hurting them, but keep a record of the new string and cable lengths when you finally get it right and that will be the new reference if you ever need new strings.


----------



## bassman409

If this is your first tune work on a Hoyt cam 1/2 then you may not realize that the string lengths in the tune charts are untwisted lengths and you will probably have to add twists to all 3 to get your bow to factory specs. I checked my 06 UltraTec and the string ended up with about 1 twist per inch. Shoots smooth and quiet and straight.


----------



## badger109

Thanks Javi, Steve and matt for being so helpful.

I need help with tuning my reflex excursion. since I last tried, I got vapor trail strings and cables. I didn't measure them because I just shot my bow however the shop set it up.

So I've done everything so far - put my mods at 30", backed off the string, made my a2a .25" long, and got the cams in sync (equidistant from holes), yet my cam is still under rotated. I twisted the cables up, keeping the cams in sync, all the way till it was shorter than spec a2a; it just made it a little more under rotated. Now I reset the a2a at spec +.25" and synchronized it, and I will try untwisting the cables to see if the rotation will improve (I don't think it will). (do you follow that?) 

until then, does anyone have any ideas to help me?

I don't get how, if the draw stop timing is correct, the synchronization can be off. Will someone explain?

And, how do I measure tiller again? Is it from the string or what?

thanks everyone in advance.

Edit: I think I will forget about the holes and look at tiller. Maybe I'll even forget about the synchronization all together and just get the timing down for a solid wall because I don't understand how sync can be off when timing is dead on.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

badger109 said:


> Thanks Javi, Steve and matt for being so helpful.
> 
> I need help with tuning my reflex excursion. since I last tried, I got vapor trail strings and cables. I didn't measure them because I just shot my bow however the shop set it up.
> 
> So I've done everything so far - put my mods at 30", backed off the string, made my a2a .25" long, and got the cams in sync (equidistant from holes), yet my cam is still under rotated. I twisted the cables up, keeping the cams in sync, all the way till it was shorter than spec a2a; it just made it a little more under rotated. Now I reset the a2a at spec +.25" and synchronized it, and I will try untwisting the cables to see if the rotation will improve (I don't think it will). (do you follow that?)
> 
> until then, does anyone have any ideas to help me?
> 
> I don't get how, if the draw stop timing is correct, the synchronization can be off. Will someone explain?
> 
> And, how do I measure tiller again? Is it from the string or what?
> 
> thanks everyone in advance.
> 
> Edit: I think I will forget about the holes and look at tiller. Maybe I'll even forget about the synchronization all together and just get the timing down for a solid wall because I don't understand how sync can be off when timing is dead on.


When setting the sync do not rely on the holes. they are for reference. set you cam sync by the tiller. Measure your tiller from the point the limbs meet the riser or limb pockets.
Trying to explain how the timing is on but the sync off is lengthy at best. Short version is as everything starts to come together they will be right on. As far as loosening the string I bypass that step and just worry with getting the ata CLOSE and work on timing/sync. then worry with weight. then worry with DL.
Remeber, All tune chart measuremnts are a reference and not the targt outcome. 

This is a balancing act to get you to what I like to refer as "bench tuned" the fine tuning comes in the form of creep tuning.


----------



## badger109

Thanks



Hoyt Thompson said:


> Measure your tiller from the point the limbs meet the riser or limb pockets.


to the string? or do I have to make a line between the axles or something?


i don't know. I guess i'd rather just get it timed for now, for the solid wall. I've shot my bow fine and it paper tunes and such fine when the cams are out of wack. and i have to wait for the snow to melt to creep tune.


----------



## Archersteve

badger109 said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> to the string? or do I have to make a line between the axles or something?
> 
> 
> i don't know. I guess i'd rather just get it timed for now, for the solid wall. I've shot my bow fine and it paper tunes and such fine when the cams are out of wack. and i have to wait for the snow to melt to creep tune.


To the string.


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## badger109

oh, I see. Thanks.


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## mecca

Put new strings on my trykon. Buss cable is twisted quite a bit (ATA set 1/4" longer than spec) and the control has barely any twists (had to untwist to get the top cam from being under rotated). The string is hitting the rubber pegs at the exact same time. Check draw length and it's ok - brace height ok. ATA is long by 3/16" even after twisting the main string quite a bit. Is this okay? Wall feels great.


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## Archersteve

mecca said:


> Put new strings on my trykon. Buss cable is twisted quite a bit (ATA set 1/4" longer than spec) and the control has barely any twists (had to untwist to get the top cam from being under rotated). The string is hitting the rubber pegs at the exact same time. Check draw length and it's ok - brace height ok. ATA is long by 3/16" even after twisting the main string quite a bit. Is this okay? Wall feels great.


3/16" off on the A2A is close enough. It might mean the difference of +/- a couple of pounds max draw weight, but it will not impact anything else.


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## Hoyt Thompson

mecca said:


> Put new strings on my trykon. Buss cable is twisted quite a bit (ATA set 1/4" longer than spec) and the control has barely any twists (had to untwist to get the top cam from being under rotated). The string is hitting the rubber pegs at the exact same time. Check draw length and it's ok - brace height ok. ATA is long by 3/16" even after twisting the main string quite a bit. Is this okay? Wall feels great.


I ran into this problem quite a bit when I first started tuning. On the Trykon or any other "parralell limb" model, I forgo the loosening of the bowstring and get the ATA as close as possible. You need to twist both BC and CC to squeeze the bow down to a closer ATA. The Buss may look real twisted but measure the twist from beginning of a color to the beginning of the same color and if you are not too much under an inch from color to same color you are doing fine. The string on the Hoyts "parralell" limbs is really just there for the ride. Once you have your ata, tiller, draw stop timing down, move to weight and draw length. The bowstring will also help with getting th proper rotation in both cams. As you shorten the ATA both cams will be come under rotated and the string will need to be tightened to bring them back down.


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## badger109

Wow. Using the tiller instead of the holes is _so_ much easier and quicker. It really works so much better and it makes sense.

I got it nearly perfect; i still have to tweak it though.

How solid does the wall get? Right now the timing and drawstop are nearly perfect, and my wall is a lot better, but I can still easily overdraw. I don't know if i'll ever be able to get my old $200 excursion to have as good a wall as a new Airborne.


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## Hoyt Thompson

Some bows just did not have a "brick wall". I am glad to here that you have gotten it bench tuned. Now go and creep tune it while practicing/using your normal form. If you start changing your form then you will not know which to change your grip or bow timing. So stay consistant. Change one thing at a time.


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## badger109

Ok will my string need to settle after I press it?

And now I can't get my a2a to spec without twisting the string alot, so I put back what was in it. Now a2a's 1/4" long, dunno about DL, and the draw weight is pretty close. I really don't care as long as i am timed and synched.

im just wondering if I should shoot a few dozen arrows before putting in the peep and then paper tuning.

and if I do that before creep tuning, i shouldn't have to reset my peep and paper tune again, right?


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## mecca

Hoyt Thompson said:


> I ran into this problem quite a bit when I first started tuning. On the Trykon or any other "parralell limb" model, I forgo the loosening of the bowstring and get the ATA as close as possible. You need to twist both BC and CC to squeeze the bow down to a closer ATA. The Buss may look real twisted but measure the twist from beginning of a color to the beginning of the same color and if you are not too much under an inch from color to same color you are doing fine. The string on the Hoyts "parralell" limbs is really just there for the ride. Once you have your ata, tiller, draw stop timing down, move to weight and draw length. The bowstring will also help with getting th proper rotation in both cams. As you shorten the ATA both cams will be come under rotated and the string will need to be tightened to bring them back down.


About the wall --- I see that there are threaded holes in the zephyr cams fro draw stops --- has anyone used these before? Thanks for that wealth of info Hoyt Thompson---:darkbeer:


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## Hoyt Thompson

mecca said:


> About the wall --- I see that there are threaded holes in the zephyr cams fro draw stops --- has anyone used these before? Thanks for that wealth of info Hoyt Thompson---:darkbeer:


yes the inner most hole allows vor a slightly soft wall while the outboard hole gives you a firmer wall.


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## Hoyt Thompson

badger109 said:


> Ok will my string need to settle after I press it?
> 
> And now I can't get my a2a to spec without twisting the string alot, so I put back what was in it. Now a2a's 1/4" long, dunno about DL, and the draw weight is pretty close. I really don't care as long as i am timed and synched.
> 
> im just wondering if I should shoot a few dozen arrows before putting in the peep and then paper tuning.
> 
> and if I do that before creep tuning, i shouldn't have to reset my peep and paper tune again, right?


ATA is set with th CC and BC. the bowstring will move it but not to the degree you need. If you are a quarter inch out then put 4 twists in both CC and BC and try again from there.
Yes your string may need a little shooting in if it is an old string and will definately need shooting in if new but, you are still bench tuning the bow so don't worry with that for now. One step at a time.


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## Collis

*Differences...*

I noticed today that the sticker on my bow has a different lenghts than it sais on the hoyt website tune charts... If I order new strings, which should I stick to, the sticker, or the tune charts:

String: sticker 59 => tune chart 60.5
Buss: sticker 39 tune => chart 39.25
control: sticker 42.25 => tune chart 42.25

The strings on it now are the strings that where on it when I bought it (2nd hand) but they need replacing. The ATA is dead on, BH is dead on, Tiller is 1/32nd higher on top, and the timing is perfect (can't measure draw weight here, but it feels about right). The current strings don't look like factory strings (all red... Doesn't seem hoyty to me). Should I worry much about the lenght differences (especially the string bothers me)?


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## Grand River Zip

*Untwisted*

I found out the hard way that the Hoyt website are untwisted lengths. So I would go with the length your sticker gives, or the website length, but tell the string maker they are untwisted lengths!

Mine have a LOT of twists to compensate for the length.


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## Hoyt Thompson

Collis said:


> I noticed today that the sticker on my bow has a different lenghts than it sais on the hoyt website tune charts... If I order new strings, which should I stick to, the sticker, or the tune charts:
> 
> String: sticker 59 => tune chart 60.5
> Buss: sticker 39 tune => chart 39.25
> control: sticker 42.25 => tune chart 42.25
> 
> The strings on it now are the strings that where on it when I bought it (2nd hand) but they need replacing. The ATA is dead on, BH is dead on, Tiller is 1/32nd higher on top, and the timing is perfect (can't measure draw weight here, but it feels about right). The current strings don't look like factory strings (all red... Doesn't seem hoyty to me). Should I worry much about the lenght differences (especially the string bothers me)?


I would press the bow and measure them to see what you have. I would also bench tune your bow with the old string so that you will know within an 1/8th what you will need. This will save you so much work down the road.


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## mecca

Hoyt Thompson said:


> I ran into this problem quite a bit when I first started tuning. On the Trykon or any other "parralell limb" model, I forgo the loosening of the bowstring and get the ATA as close as possible. You need to twist both BC and CC to squeeze the bow down to a closer ATA. The Buss may look real twisted but measure the twist from beginning of a color to the beginning of the same color and if you are not too much under an inch from color to same color you are doing fine. The string on the Hoyts "parralell" limbs is really just there for the ride. Once you have your ata, tiller, draw stop timing down, move to weight and draw length. The bowstring will also help with getting th proper rotation in both cams. As you shorten the ATA both cams will be come under rotated and the string will need to be tightened to bring them back down.


Okay---I shot the bow in the state previously posted-1/4" long on the ATA and cams timed close to "break in the bucknastys". Tonight I twisted up the buss and control 5 twists and the main sting a little more and the ATA is just a little over 1/16" long-close enough for me. Then had to twist the control half a twist to get the rubbers hitting at the same time. All is well. Here's where it gets goofy (maybe this should not be posted here) I went to shoot some paper as it's to damn cold out for tuning and I've got bullet holes now with a little adjusting of the rest and nocking point but the nocking point lower than the rest. I've always read level or above 1/8". Is this ok??? This thing feels so much better and is quieter. What do ya think about the nock point?

I would like to thank everyone who posted on this sticky-I've learned alot---:wav:


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## Hoyt Thompson

mecca said:


> Okay---I shot the bow in the state previously posted-1/4" long on the ATA and cams timed close to "break in the bucknastys". Tonight I twisted up the buss and control 5 twists and the main sting a little more and the ATA is just a little over 1/16" long-close enough for me. Then had to twist the control half a twist to get the rubbers hitting at the same time. All is well. Here's where it gets goofy (maybe this should not be posted here) I went to shoot some paper as it's to damn cold out for tuning and I've got bullet holes now with a little adjusting of the rest and nocking point but the nocking point lower than the rest. I've always read level or above 1/8". Is this ok??? This thing feels so much better and is quieter. What do ya think about the nock point?
> 
> I would like to thank everyone who posted on this sticky-I've learned alot---:wav:


Whichever shoots the best. Hoyt manual say at 90 degrees (level) and this is the way I do it. i adjust everything elsewith the arrow rest.
You also want to make sure you tiller is close to even. Check your draw length as well.


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## Devilfan

Do these instructions by Javi apply to the Hoyt Vector cams, too?


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## JAVI

mecca said:


> Okay---I shot the bow in the state previously posted-1/4" long on the ATA and cams timed close to "break in the bucknastys". Tonight I twisted up the buss and control 5 twists and the main sting a little more and the ATA is just a little over 1/16" long-close enough for me. Then had to twist the control half a twist to get the rubbers hitting at the same time. All is well. Here's where it gets goofy (maybe this should not be posted here) I went to shoot some paper as it's to damn cold out for tuning and I've got bullet holes now with a little adjusting of the rest and nocking point but the nocking point lower than the rest. I've always read level or above 1/8". Is this ok??? This thing feels so much better and is quieter. What do ya think about the nock point?
> 
> I would like to thank everyone who posted on this sticky-I've learned alot---:wav:


Usually this occurs when the cams are not in sync... or the arrow is slightly weak..


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## tenacity21

If someone could do me a favor, and take a picture of your Vulcan cams at full draw that would be great. I plan on doing this process roughly in 1hr. And a visual would be good to have. But knowing that I can't go by that 100% would just help me stay in the " ballpark " knowing that i'm doing things right.

BTW, great post Javi !! Thanks for your time on this, and all the inside info your willing to share w/ fellow shooters.

~Dustin


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## Hoyt Thompson

Devilfan said:


> Do these instructions by Javi apply to the Hoyt Vector cams, too?


Yes all of the principals of tuning the cam and 1/2 are the same.


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## mecca

JAVI said:


> Usually this occurs when the cams are not in sync... or the arrow is slightly weak..



I do want the 2 rubber pieces hitting the string at the same when the bow is drawn back correct??? I have to think the cams are ok as I confirmed this again last night on the drawing board.

As for the arrows I can try my 300 Radial X Weaves and see what they do but I went to the 200's because everyone was saying I was overspined. On Target showed those as overspined also.

I suppose I should have left some arrows uncut to play with the spine a little more. Maybe a slightly longer 300 would be the ticket? Then again maybe a few lbs lighter draw weight would be the answer. 

Please post about the rubber stops---Both at the same time correct???


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## JAVI

mecca said:


> I do want the 2 rubber pieces hitting the string at the same when the bow is drawn back correct??? I have to think the cams are ok as I confirmed this again last night on the drawing board.
> 
> As for the arrows I can try my 300 Radial X Weaves and see what they do but I went to the 200's because everyone was saying I was overspined. On Target showed those as overspined also.
> 
> I suppose I should have left some arrows uncut to play with the spine a little more. Maybe a slightly longer 300 would be the ticket? Then again maybe a few lbs lighter draw weight would be the answer.
> 
> Please post about the rubber stops---Both at the same time correct???


 First do as I suggested in the tuning guide... tighten both limb bolts fully and measure the tiller... this will tell you if the cams are in sync at rest... if they are not it will cause nock travel...


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## SonnyThomas

dwagoner said:


> Question I've always heard max the limbs before tuning is this true with all Hoyts? Or something you can set draw weight and then time and sync the cams? BTW i don't have the cam+1/2 i have the C2 non adjustable 30" cams. TY


Actually, all bows should be maxed to check and set all factory specs. If you have gone through the draw stop timing, the last step is adjusting main bow string to get correct draw length. You will note that both cams move with twisting the main bow string. As long as they move equally there is no problem. As Hoyt states in their manuals, the timing marks or reference holes are just that, reference points.


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## LaMar Stewart

Mr. Javi I shoot a Hoyt 38 ultra, just wundering if this method would work on my bow. Or do you have any tips, that would work well for me.


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## LaMar Stewart

LaMar Stewart said:


> Mr. Javi I shoot a Hoyt 38 ultra, just wundering if this method would work on my bow. Or do you have any tips, that would work well for me.


forgot some improtant information. my 38 ultra has Vector cams. 32" draw lenght. 60 - 70 lb. Draw weight.


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## JAVI

LaMar Stewart said:


> Mr. Javi I shoot a Hoyt 38 ultra, just wundering if this method would work on my bow. Or do you have any tips, that would work well for me.


All hybrid cams follow the same basic setup procedures..


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## wblackfin

Javi,

It is nice to have you back :set1_applaud: :wav: :77:. Seems like you are a little more active on your post again. You are a great resource.
Thank You!


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## Bull Herbie

First off Thanks too Javi, Archersteve, Hoyt Thompson and all that have added info too this topic!! My question is after doing the first couple steps and getting tiller even, when you start adjusting the buss and/or control for the draw stop how does the tiller stay even or do you have to adjust in combo Again THANK YOU all very much


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## Hoyt Thompson

Bull Herbie said:


> First off Thanks too Javi, Archersteve, Hoyt Thompson and all that have added info too this topic!! My question is after doing the first couple steps and getting tiller even, when you start adjusting the buss and/or control for the draw stop how does the tiller stay even or do you have to adjust in combo Again THANK YOU all very much


If you adjust the cables in equal twists then the tiller will stay close together. You will notice that as you DL and DW get closer to spec that the ATA will become close as well and then you can use you BH measurement to set the proper cam rotation position at rest. It is a balancing act that only comes with practice.


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## Bull Herbie

Cool thanks I guess it is time to start experimenting.


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## JAVI

Bull Herbie said:


> Cool thanks I guess it is time to start experimenting.


It really isn't that difficult... Take a moment or two and really look at how the cables run and what twisting one affects... A simple way to do this is to remove the cables from the cable slide and one at a time pull or push them toward the riser... this will show you the reaction of the cams as you apply twists to the cable. Then do the same with the string and watch how each cam is affected...


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## Bull Herbie

All right guys heres what I got:
draw length +1/4" (which I actually like cause I'm a little longer than 30")
A2A +1/8"
Brace +5/16"
Draw weight pretty close maybe a little low (don't have a very good scale)
Tiller dead nuts
draw stop dead nuts

I think I'm pretty close what say you? Should I keep trying or should I go ahead and mount accesories and give it a whirl?

Again THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! I just love this place:thumb:


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## Hoyt Thompson

Bull Herbie said:


> All right guys heres what I got:
> draw length +1/4" (which I actually like cause I'm a little longer than 30")
> A2A +1/8"
> Brace +5/16"
> Draw weight pretty close maybe a little low (don't have a very good scale)
> Tiller dead nuts
> draw stop dead nuts
> 
> I think I'm pretty close what say you? Should I keep trying or should I go ahead and mount accesories and give it a whirl?
> 
> Again THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! I just love this place:thumb:


Ok, I see you are shooting a Vectrix so I am going to tell you that you are close but with the draw length specific cams you need to make sure you use the performance marks on the bottom cam. 
The performance marks do not need to be centered but I use them to make sure that your post that attaches the CC to the bottom cam is far enough away from the CC. When you shot a bow the cams do not just come to rest in the static position, they swing back and forth a bit. If your CC is to close to that peg you will start to rub the CC where it wraps back around the small eccentric on the peg where you attached the CC. You will also see that your performance marks will be off to one side. I recommend about 1/4 inch between the CC and that peg. With your brace height that much over I would definatly look at it. 
You may have to shorten the bow string to rotate both cams equally to keep your Tiller and DS timing on. I also see you are a touch over on ATA which will lower the DW a tad. Remember you are looking for what shoots best for you so maybe to get the most out of your strings right now losing a few pounds of DW is better than shooting a untuned bow.
I would try putting a few more twists in your Bow string to get you DL and BH set closer to spec and make sure you look at that bottom cam peg. Halo serving or not you will eat that up in 500 shots or less if it is rubbing at the shot. 
After that go on to creep tuning cause you are about as bench tuned as you are gonna get.
Don't it feel good to have timed one of the more complicated setups out there. After this go on to tackle Binary cams and you will be the man in your shooting community. HAHAHA.


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## lungbuster14

Ok well here’s my story I gave this tuning thing another whirl and I got the tiller dead even (the ref holes are no where even close to being even, the top one is almost on the hole while the bottom one is no where close), the draw stop is dead even, and the draw length is dead even, I took my Axel to Axel measurement the way archersteve told me and I’m 7/16 long from the Hoyt tune charts, my brace height is 1/8 less then the tune charts, I dont have a scale but its around 60 pounds. My string and buss cable are twisted pretty good so I don’t think I can get my axel to axel that much smaller (my buss cable is actually twisted so much that the split part is actually twisting when I take the bow of the press). And the cam lean I got right now is ridiculous it almost looks like the string is going to fall right off the cam. I got a 06 lazertec and i put a winner’s choice string on it the rest of the cables are factory, it’s a 60 lbs draw.


As I was writing I was thinking, while this whole tuning process was going on I decided to twist everything a lot to see if I can get the axel to axel to get relatively close now I measured it and I was still a little long but when I drew it back there seemed to be a lot of weight on it like probably close to 70 pounds. When I bought the bow, the guy at the dealership said it was a 60 pound bow but the sticker on the limb is cut off so no one really knows. Do you guys think I might have a 70 pound bow instead? When I first started this whole thing about a month ago I think starting off the Axel to Axel was 1/4 inch long would that be enough to take 10 pounds off the max weight?

Im sorry guys if i'm being a pain but I do appreciate your guys help.


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## Bull Herbie

Hoyt Thompson, I looked at my marks they are dang near as centered as they can be and my post is 3/16" away from my string, tonight I will twist my string a little more to see if I can increase that just a bit more then a shootin we will go! One more question the little white peg for let off marked 65 and 75% how does that work, it doesn't look like it contacts anything?
Does the Diamond Edge have a binary system? I'm thinking about one for my son so I might be having that adventure sometime soon too! Thanks have a day.


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## Hoyt Thompson

Bull Herbie said:


> Hoyt Thompson, I looked at my marks they are dang near as centered as they can be and my post is 3/16" away from my string, tonight I will twist my string a little more to see if I can increase that just a bit more then a shootin we will go! One more question the little white peg for let off marked 65 and 75% how does that work, it doesn't look like it contacts anything?
> Does the Diamond Edge have a binary system? I'm thinking about one for my son so I might be having that adventure sometime soon too! Thanks have a day.


First the let off hole question.
When you put it in the hole for the let off you want, it will contact the cable at full draw. It will change the timimg slightly so creep tune, then install it and creep it again to acheive the best results.
Second, 3/16th sounds a little to close in my opinion, I would twist the string a tad to get you DL down a bit and rotate the cams a slight more to keep the peg from rubbibg. You may wind up taking a twist out of both BC and CC to rotate both cams back to keep the cable away from that peg.


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## Hoyt Thompson

lungbuster14 said:


> Ok well here’s my story I gave this tuning thing another whirl and I got the tiller dead even (the ref holes are no where even close to being even, the top one is almost on the hole while the bottom one is no where close), the draw stop is dead even, and the draw length is dead even, I took my Axel to Axel measurement the way archersteve told me and I’m 7/16 long from the Hoyt tune charts, my brace height is 1/8 less then the tune charts, I dont have a scale but its around 60 pounds. My string and buss cable are twisted pretty good so I don’t think I can get my axel to axel that much smaller (my buss cable is actually twisted so much that the split part is actually twisting when I take the bow of the press). And the cam lean I got right now is ridiculous it almost looks like the string is going to fall right off the cam. I got a 06 lazertec and i put a winner’s choice string on it the rest of the cables are factory, it’s a 60 lbs draw.
> 
> 
> As I was writing I was thinking, while this whole tuning process was going on I decided to twist everything a lot to see if I can get the axel to axel to get relatively close now I measured it and I was still a little long but when I drew it back there seemed to be a lot of weight on it like probably close to 70 pounds. When I bought the bow, the guy at the dealership said it was a 60 pound bow but the sticker on the limb is cut off so no one really knows. Do you guys think I might have a 70 pound bow instead? When I first started this whole thing about a month ago I think starting off the Axel to Axel was 1/4 inch long would that be enough to take 10 pounds off the max weight?
> 
> Im sorry guys if i'm being a pain but I do appreciate your guys help.


It is hard to tell what you may have. The one way to know for sure is get the serial number off the bow and call Hoyt. Also if you really want a difinative answer you will need to disassemble the bow and get the deflection numbers off of you limb bases. Hoyt can tell you more about what you have from there.
The factory cables are going to be your downfall. The one thing they are good for are peep tieing thread and getting your bow bench tuned so you will know what lengths to order your good strings.
I am having a hard time following what you have done. First you say you are 7/16ths long in your ATA but you say you started at 1/4" long a month ago. Maybe I am misunderstanding you but this would mean you are untwisting stuff.
The way you desribe your cam lean I am worried you have a bent riser or bent axle. My suggestion at this point is if you bought it new then get a proshop to send it back to Hoyt. If you bought it used then take it to a proshop and see if they can give it a good going over. Something sounds off. 
I hope you are not using a "boat roller" type press on your Hoyt as it will twist it up badly.


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## badger109

I have a question a little off topic, but I think it'll fit here. 

Well I can't set my rest low enough to line it up with the berger hole. How does this affect everything?

(you're supposed to set the nock point and rest so the arrow is lined up with that hole in the riser, right?)


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## Archersteve

badger109 said:


> I have a question a little off topic, but I think it'll fit here.
> 
> Well I can't set my rest low enough to line it up with the berger hole. How does this affect everything?
> 
> (you're supposed to set the nock point and rest so the arrow is lined up with that hole in the riser, right?)


Not really necessary to line up the rest with the berger hole (rest attachment holes).

In an ideal world, the rest should put the arrow at the exact center of the bow. Measure the bow, top to bottom without drawing the bow, and find the exact center. Now, place the arrow at the center and get it perpendicular to the string, and that is the ideal place to have the rest.

OK OK, most that have tried this find that it is below the shelf or even at the place they set their hand on the grip. This is not too uncommon, because it is not an easy Engineering trick to pull a bow back from any place other than the center of the bow without the limbs tipping back at you.

So, we compromise. It is best, although how much better is subject to argument, to get the arrow closest to the center of the bow. On some bows, I found that I just wanted the fletch to clear the rest, and the smaller the fletch, the closer the arrow to the rest, the better.

Most of the time, if we just get the arrow at the holes, or just above it, you won't even be able to tell the difference.

So, if you are really picky, and want that extra one or two fps, and think that you are good enough to see a little less nock travel, spend the money for another type of rest. Otherwise, don't worry about it.


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## badger109

thanks alot steve!


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## no1huntmaster

*hoyt protec tunning..cam .5*

Where are you guys grabbing onto your string to check timing..?
In other words where do you start your tunning from...?
Are you 90 deg. and perpendiculer to the hole in the riser or slightly above?
I have been finding that I actually need to be about 3/16 below the 90deg mark on the string. This is almost always necessary to get that bullet hole WHILE PAPER TUNING.
I always end up back to this point on all my hoyts with any arrow spine or any cam sync method. 
The only way I have ever been able to get around this is to forget about paper tuning and just group tune etc.
The bows all shoot great. In fact shoot in 28o"s with the hunting bow on spots.
But still this bothers me some times... I am a beleiver that if you can not get a good paper tun then the the bow is not tuned.
Any oppinions...would love to here Javis opinion on this. I have really had some sucess with his method here. That is forgoing any paper tuning.


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## Hoyt Thompson

For you to be 3/16th low nock then a few things pop into my mind. 1) spine is to weak. Try shooting a lighter point to see if this helps. 2) Bottom cam is ahead of the top cam causing the nock to travel below the intended power path. 3) you have a unique shooting style which may be causing you to have a lower than 90 degree nock point. You say it is not the first or second but, I believe it may be number 2. Only you will be able to tell us as wel cannot inspect your bow. 
You mention cam sync method, did you finish the tuning by using the modified creep tuning to zero in your bow? 
Bench tuning is only a starting point and creep tuning allows you to fit the bow to your form and your style shooting.
I tune with a dloop set at 90 degrees to the string and arrow passing thru the berger hole at some point. lower the arrow the better up to the point that you are not getting sufficient fletching clearance. With Blazers or any other high profile vane you may even find that you are going thru the top of the berger hole. If you are using a drap away you also may need to be going thru the top of the berger hole for fletching clearance of the shelf and drop launcher arm.
Let me know if this helps you out and get back to us. Javi..... your turn. :lol:


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## no1huntmaster

*protec tuning*

I have tried all combinations of tip weights and arrow spines, also timed out cams so top cam is ahead of bottom cam and vise versa as well as both in sync.
I have tried different drop aways rests too.
I think the only thing i have not tried is to get a little longer cables and string.
They are rite at spec at installation with little room for twisting...maybe 4 to5 twists or so. They are generally about 3/16 of an inch shorter then the chart show but when on the bow the brace, draw length and weight are dead on.
But this is in the un sycned/tuned state. I have talked to a few different people about this and they tell me they no longer paper tune their bows anymore. That a big...... W.t.f. 
Also have had people tell me to ditch the drop away rests that they are more gimick then reality. I noticed this is mentioned in the Bowtek threads...see Nolen threads.
Have to try some more experimenting it sound like.


----------



## JAVI

no1huntmaster said:


> I have tried all combinations of tip weights and arrow spines, also timed out cams so top cam is ahead of bottom cam and vise versa as well as both in sync.
> I have tried different drop aways rests too.
> I think the only thing i have not tried is to get a little longer cables and string.
> They are rite at spec at installation with little room for twisting...maybe 4 to5 twists or so. They are generally about 3/16 of an inch shorter then the chart show but when on the bow the brace, draw length and weight are dead on.
> But this is in the un sycned/tuned state. I have talked to a few different people about this and they tell me they no longer paper tune their bows anymore. That a big...... W.t.f.
> Also have had people tell me to ditch the drop away rests that they are more gimick then reality. I noticed this is mentioned in the Bowtek threads...see Nolen threads.
> Have to try some more experimenting it sound like.


That's 'cause the lengths on the limb are untwisted lengths...:wink:


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## Hoyt Thompson

Are you setting your timing before or after you tie in you drop cord to your cables? The cord can actually offset your time as well.


The main question is how does it shoot at 3/16ths low nock?


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## no1huntmaster

I re tie the drop rest cable after the cams are synced.
The bow shoots pretty good this way so I may leave it alone.


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## Hoyt Thompson

As long as it shoots good. If you wanted to try something else you could sync the cams with the drop cord attached. It can affect you timing depending on the amount of tension it puts on that cable.


----------



## Archersteve

no1huntmaster said:


> I re tie the drop rest cable after the cams are synced.
> The bow shoots pretty good this way so I may leave it alone.


You *never* time a bow with the drop rest cable NOT attached to the cable.

You are taking the bow out of time and that is why the tune is 3/16" low.

But, it you like the way it shoots, don't change a thing, but, if you want a smoother bow, a harder wall, a slightly faster bow, re-time the bow with the fall-a-way rest functioning and then tune the nock height.


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## no1huntmaster

Thanks you guys, but yes I know that the drop cable should be and is attatched.
I re tie it to the bus cable so that it does not add any tension to the cable. Yes that is obvious, so I have tried it both ways. 
I still think some longer string/cables may have some thing to do with it. I base this on my two target bows. The strings on those are installed at the lenghts shown on the tune charts,then twisted from there.
I seem to only hit this on the shorter ax to ax. bows with the shorter strings/cables on them.
As mentioned earlier the other strings on these are installed 3/16" shorter then the charts show and twisted from there.
Thanks for all your help..I have alot to think about again.


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## Breathn

*string lengths??*

Are the new hoyts like my Katera coming with twisted string and cable lengths on them now?I know from a few years ago they were un twisted lengths, but was told they are on the money now.


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## fdhoyt

i have been shooting my katera for a little over a month now and i noticed that the top cam is underrotated by atleast a 1/4 inch. i also checked and the ata is about 3/16 to long and the bh is a little long. what should a twist to get it timed, and when you twist them do you twist the top or the bottom.

i have a 30 inch DL and want to keep it there,and i feel that it might be a tad long right now. also how do you guys measure draw length without a draw board

thanks 
fdhoyt


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## Breathn

*pm*



fdhoyt said:


> i have been shooting my katera for a little over a month now and i noticed that the top cam is underrotated by atleast a 1/4 inch. i also checked and the ata is about 3/16 to long and the bh is a little long. what should a twist to get it timed, and when you twist them do you twist the top or the bottom.
> 
> i have a 30 inch DL and want to keep it there,and i feel that it might be a tad long right now. also how do you guys measure draw length without a draw board
> 
> thanks
> fdhoyt


I pmed ya buddy and here is the link to where I just had the same issue.Make sure and pull up the hoyt tune chart and look at correct ata.It is 33.5
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=648720


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## Archersteve

Breathn said:


> Are the new hoyts like my Katera coming with twisted string and cable lengths on them now?I know from a few years ago they were un twisted lengths, but was told they are on the money now.


You would need to call Hoyt on this one. 

You can also just ask the Custom Bow String maker to determine the length. I just call them up, tell them what bow I have, my draw length, and they already have the data.

But, if you are going to make your own, call Hoyt and ask.


----------



## Archersteve

fdhoyt said:


> i have been shooting my katera for a little over a month now and i noticed that the top cam is underrotated by atleast a 1/4 inch. i also checked and the ata is about 3/16 to long and the bh is a little long. what should a twist to get it timed, and when you twist them do you twist the top or the bottom.
> 
> i have a 30 inch DL and want to keep it there,and i feel that it might be a tad long right now. also how do you guys measure draw length without a draw board
> 
> thanks
> fdhoyt


If, and I mean IF, I remember correctly, the Katera is coming out with the A2A just a touch long, and the BH as well. Normally, to get a bow into specs, you would twist down the cables to shorten the A2A then you would untwist the string to achieve proper draw length and increase BH. In your case, both are too long. It is interesting that you indicate that it is 3/16" to long, because that is the number I recall for the 30" DL, but it is different for each draw length, by a very small amount.

Now, something I can help you with. To measure DL without a draw board (never used one for this purpose), you take a long arrow and a trusted friend. You nock the arrow and come to full draw. The TRUSTED friend marks the arrow where it lines up with the deepest part of the grip (where your palm touches at the top while shooting). Measure from the grove in the nock to the mark on the arrow, than add 1.75". Done.


----------



## Collis

Breathn said:


> Are the new hoyts like my Katera coming with twisted string and cable lengths on them now?I know from a few years ago they were un twisted lengths, but was told they are on the money now.



I ordered my strings from Bucknasty (John Mraz) and only specified the string lenghts on the tune charts. When I put them on, all I had to do was adjust for cam lean, and I think maybe two twists in the control cable to get everything in perfect tune, spec and time. However: I don't know if John compensated for the untwisted lenghts, or that the tune charts are correct now. I can only say: Get them from Bucknasty, and they'll be right on the money!


----------



## Devilfan

*Draw Length*

Working a Vectix with Vector cams. I have the bow timed and synced perfectly and the specs are almost dead on. My A2A is 32 15/16 (spec is 33 even) The only problem is the draw length is running about a 1/4 inch long. How many times should I twist the string to drop the DL down by a 1/4 inch? Or is there a better way?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Devilfan said:


> Working a Vectix with Vector cams. I have the bow timed and synced perfectly and the specs are almost dead on. My A2A is 32 15/16 (spec is 33 even) The only problem is the draw length is running about a 1/4 inch long. How many times should I twist the string to drop the DL down by a 1/4 inch? Or is there a better way?


Go to the hoyt tune charts and check again. There is no vectrix listed there that is ATA of 33 even. They where billed as a 33 ATA bow but each bow DL has a different ATA measurement.

Now by saying the DL is 1/4" to long do you mean you have measured it to be to long or it "feels" a 1/4" too long?

Get back to us on this so we can know how to help you better.

The best way would be to wait for my video that I am working on....:chortle: just kidding. Answer those questions above and I will see what I can do to help.


----------



## Devilfan

> Go to the hoyt tune charts and check again. There is no vectrix listed there that is ATA of 33 even. They where billed as a 33 ATA bow but each bow DL has a different ATA measurement.
> 
> Now by saying the DL is 1/4" to long do you mean you have measured it to be to long or it "feels" a 1/4" too long?
> 
> Get back to us on this so we can know how to help you better.


Ok, I just went to the Hoyt tune charts and you are right. There is no setup with a 33" measurement. Here are the specs for the bow I'm working on:

65/75 7 32 13/16 28 1/2 4 1/2 53 38 35.25 

My A2A should be 32 13/16, so my A2A is actually a little long. Should I keep twisting the string and that should shorten the DL a little more? Or should I start over with Javi's method because I am not sure there will be enough twists in the buss cable now.

When I say the DL is too long, it measures to long. It is supposed to be 28.5 but it measures 28.75. I actually measured this out using the correct AMO procedures.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Devilfan said:


> Ok, I just went to the Hoyt tune charts and you are right. There is no setup with a 33" measurement. Here are the specs for the bow I'm working on:
> 
> 65/75 7 32 13/16 28 1/2 4 1/2 53 38 35.25
> 
> My A2A should be 32 13/16, so my A2A is actually a little long. Should I keep twisting the string and that should shorten the DL a little more? Or should I start over with Javi's method because I am not sure there will be enough twists in the buss cable now.
> 
> When I say the DL is too long, it measures to long. It is supposed to be 28.5 but it measures 28.75. I actually measured this out using the correct AMO procedures.


Assuming the bow is bench and creep tuned I would tighten the BowString 5 twists and see what happens. Being 1/8th away on ATA should allow you to leave the cables as is and tighten the string. your peep unless on a tube will need readjusting so you may need like 7 twists. get your DL close and then add more twists to bring the peep back right. You will also need to shoot it a couple dozen times to resettle the string.


----------



## lungbuster14

Ok well i fianlly figured out this tuning thing and its actually quite simple you just got to do javi instrustion step by step in order and everything comes out right (duh lol). Now i got everything in spec but my problem is my massive cam lean problem, and on my buss cable where the smaller cable goes threw the actual cable its actually starting to twist the smaller cable now my guess is those two problems are inter twined some how but i dont know how to fix it.


----------



## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> Ok well i fianlly figured out this tuning thing and its actually quite simple you just got to do javi instrustion step by step in order and everything comes out right (duh lol). Now i got everything in spec but my problem is my massive cam lean problem, and on my buss cable where the smaller cable goes threw the actual cable its actually starting to twist the smaller cable now my guess is those two problems are inter twined some how but i dont know how to fix it.


You need to send us a pick so we understand, or at least so I understand.

If I understand you, the top cam is leaning. Because Hoyt uses a floating yoke system, you can try to release the tension in the cable by using a press and sliding the cable on the yoke to the correct position to fix the lean. If it does not hold, than you will need to serve the yoke in place and twist the yoke end that brings the cam back to straight.

Again, if I understand you correctly, the cable is twisting the Yoke? This is a problem if you needed to put too many twist in the cable, but if you put it in a press and ease off the pressure, untwist it, than while holding it you release the press and allow the cable and yoke to slowly take the pressure while you are restraining it so it does not twist. It will not twist after it has received full pressure again.

Like I said, post a pic.


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## Hoyt Thompson

Archersteve said:


> You need to send us a pick so we understand, or at least so I understand.
> 
> If I understand you, the top cam is leaning. Because Hoyt uses a floating yoke system, you can try to release the tension in the cable by using a press and sliding the cable on the yoke to the correct position to fix the lean. If it does not hold, than you will need to serve the yoke in place and twist the yoke end that brings the cam back to straight.
> 
> Again, if I understand you correctly, the cable is twisting the Yoke? This is a problem if you needed to put too many twist in the cable, but if you put it in a press and ease off the pressure, untwist it, than while holding it you release the press and allow the cable and yoke to slowly take the pressure while you are restraining it so it does not twist. It will not twist after it has received full pressure again.
> 
> Like I said, post a pic.


Yeah I am with AS here I think you have twisted them too tight but a good pic will help us out here.


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## lungbuster14

This isnt my bow but the red arrow is where im getting the twist.


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## Archersteve

lungbuster14 said:


> This isnt my bow but the red arrow is where im getting the twist.
> 
> View attachment 367762


That is not a problem.

Now do what I suggested to move the cable on the yoke to take out the cam lean, or serve and then twist the long side.

From this point on, you have it made in the shade.:wink:


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## badger109

Another question:

My vapor trail buss cable has a static yolk, instead of filoating. The shop installed it so it pulls the split over toward the cable guard side (one side of the yolk is shorter than the other). Would this cause cam lean or any other problem?


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## Archersteve

badger109 said:


> Another question:
> 
> My vapor trail buss cable has a static yolk, instead of filoating. The shop installed it so it pulls the split over toward the cable guard side (one side of the yolk is shorter than the other). Would this cause cam lean or any other problem?


It could, or it could fix cam lean.

First, keep in mind that as long as you have a cable guard, you will have cam lean at some point in the draw cycle, but..............

If you are correcting initial cam lean at static condition, using a static yolk and twisting one side or the other is the common practice.


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## lungbuster14

I got my bow in spec everything is dead on except the tiller its 2mm less on the bottom and i cant seem to get rid of it everytime i get rid of it it throws my draw stop off and then when i fix the draw stop the tiller goes back to being 2mm off how do i fix this?


----------



## JAVI

lungbuster14 said:


> I got my bow in spec everything is dead on except the tiller its 2mm less on the bottom and i cant seem to get rid of it everytime i get rid of it it throws my draw stop off and then when i fix the draw stop the tiller goes back to being 2mm off how do i fix this?


Put a 1/2 twist in the cable going to the short side and take a 1/2 twist out of the cable going to the long side...:wink:


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## Fugitive6

I think I followed the directions pretty well. After a few attmepts it all started to come together. I now have everything where I want it except the ATA. The ATA is off by 1/16 between the sides. My ATA is 32 14/16 and 32 15/16. I'm shooting a 07 vectrix at 28". My DL is set a little over 28. 28 1/4 I think. It feels great though so I'm leaving it. Should i worry about the 1/16 difference?


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## ryan82

Hey guys, I'm just setting up my 07 Vectrix and had a question. I followed Javi's procedure, and the bus and control cables were equal distance from the reference holes and the draw stops were bang on before I started twisting up the string. Once I twisted up the string to get the proper draw length, the bus cable was away from the hole by about 3/8 of an inch and the control cable was even with the reference hole. Is this normal for these to be off even if the stops are hitting together and my specs seem to be pretty close. The only measurement thats slightly off is the a2a which is maybe 1/8 of an inch long if that. before I go messing around and putting more twists in the string, am i on the right track or should I start over? Thanks guys I really appreciate any help.


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## Hoyt Thompson

ryan82 said:


> Hey guys, I'm just setting up my 07 Vectrix and had a question. I followed Javi's procedure, and the bus and control cables were equal distance from the reference holes and the draw stops were bang on before I started twisting up the string. Once I twisted up the string to get the proper draw length, the bus cable was away from the hole by about 3/8 of an inch and the control cable was even with the reference hole. Is this normal for these to be off even if the stops are hitting together and my specs seem to be pretty close. The only measurement thats slightly off is the a2a which is maybe 1/8 of an inch long if that. before I go messing around and putting more twists in the string, am i on the right track or should I start over? Thanks guys I really appreciate any help.


first off I would not use the reference holes to measure anything by as they are there for reference only.
Measure your top and bottom tiller to se if the cams are in sync. I bet you will find that the top is off compared to the bottom.


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## ryan82

Thanks for getting back to me so soon. I checked the tiller and the bottom is maybe off by 1/32 of an inch compared to the top. Should I start over? Here's what I did from start to finnish. (1) Untwisted my string until it wasnt affecting brace height. (2) twisted bus cable until a2a was 1/4 inch longer than spec. (3) turned control until tiller was matched on both top and bottom. (4) turned string up until draw lengh was to spec. All of my initial measurements were taken with both limbs bottomed out. Not sure if it helps, but when I shoot an unfletched arrow at 10 yrds it hits the target nock high. My wisker biscuit is set so that my arrow sits 90 degrees to the string at rest. I've tried shooting a weaker arrow but still the same result. Not sure if this could be due to nock travel maybe because my cams arent in sync? I've never been able to get my bow to paper tune half decent, always with this tail high tear so I thought I'd start by following Javi's method for getting my cams in line. Maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. I'm relatively new to this.


----------



## the_wraith420

ryan82 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me so soon. I checked the tiller and the bottom is maybe off by 1/32 of an inch compared to the top. Should I start over? Here's what I did from start to finnish. (1) Untwisted my string until it wasnt affecting brace height. (2) twisted bus cable until a2a was 1/4 inch longer than spec. (3) turned control until tiller was matched on both top and bottom. (4) turned string up until draw lengh was to spec. All of my initial measurements were taken with both limbs bottomed out. Not sure if it helps, but when I shoot an unfletched arrow at 10 yrds it hits the target nock high. My wisker biscuit is set so that my arrow sits 90 degrees to the string at rest. I've tried shooting a weaker arrow but still the same result. Not sure if this could be due to nock travel maybe because my cams arent in sync? I've never been able to get my bow to paper tune half decent, always with this tail high tear so I thought I'd start by following Javi's method for getting my cams in line. Maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. I'm relatively new to this.


whisker biscuit's are kind of picky to tune, normaly i would start with a high nock point and slowly move it down shooting through paper to check between each move untill i get a perfect bullet hole. also feathers go thru biscuits better then vains or you could possibly have a weak arrow


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## Hoyt Thompson

ryan82 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me so soon. I checked the tiller and the bottom is maybe off by 1/32 of an inch compared to the top. Should I start over? Here's what I did from start to finnish. (1) Untwisted my string until it wasnt affecting brace height. (2) twisted bus cable until a2a was 1/4 inch longer than spec. (3) turned control until tiller was matched on both top and bottom. (4) turned string up until draw lengh was to spec. All of my initial measurements were taken with both limbs bottomed out. Not sure if it helps, but when I shoot an unfletched arrow at 10 yrds it hits the target nock high. My wisker biscuit is set so that my arrow sits 90 degrees to the string at rest. I've tried shooting a weaker arrow but still the same result. Not sure if this could be due to nock travel maybe because my cams arent in sync? I've never been able to get my bow to paper tune half decent, always with this tail high tear so I thought I'd start by following Javi's method for getting my cams in line. Maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. I'm relatively new to this.


1/32 could be enough to mess you up but, you are close enough to creep tune. This is the most important step in the tuning process and it is the most avoided step for some reason.
Paper tuning is good but it is not the divine method of centershot, especially on a Hoyt. Walk it back to get it centered left to right and paper tune the centershot if you feel it is not right. If you are set a 90 degrees then you should be good. your whisker biscuit will need to be as square as possible to achieve the best arrow flight.

Also did you measure the bows draw weight? I have found on the parrallel limbs that 1/4 over on A2A will not tune up to your Draw weight. Also you do need to pay attention to the "performance marks" on the bottom cam to make sure your control cable is not wrapping around and striking the peg.
hope this helps.


----------



## ryan82

Thanks for the help guys, I'm getting closer I think. My tiller is even. The bus cable is even with the tuning hole on the bottom cam, but the control is still almost 1/4 inch short. My A2A is slightly long 1/8 of an inch, and my draw length is long by about 1/4 inch. Here's some pictures to show you guys where I'm at and maybe someone has a suggestion as to what I can do next. Thanks again.


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## Hoyt Thompson

ryan82 said:


> Thanks for the help guys, I'm getting closer I think. My tiller is even. The bus cable is even with the tuning hole on the bottom cam, but the control is still almost 1/4 inch short. My A2A is slightly long 1/8 of an inch, and my draw length is long by about 1/4 inch. Here's some pictures to show you guys where I'm at and maybe someone has a suggestion as to what I can do next. Thanks again.


IMO I would twist the BC about 5 times to lower the A2A and get the top draw stop hitting. 
Then work on tiller by putting a twist in one cable and one out of the other. 
This will keep your DS timed and adjust your tiller. 
You will know if you are going the right way if the measured difference on the tiller is decreasing.
If it increases you are going the wrong way switch which one youe are twisting and untwisting. 
Once you have the tiller even you DS will still be close. You will want to keep an eye on you drawstop timing while doing this.
Once the tiller is even and DS hit at the same time check your draw weight. If it is low then twist both cables equally and keep checking tiller and DS timing. You want to stop when you are a couple pounds high. 
Then twist the bow string up to set draw length and static cam position. 
I like where your bottom cam is sitting while at rest. Try to get it back there when you twist the bowstring to set length and static position.

P.S. don't worry to much with the holes for know, focus on one thing at a time. Draw stop, tiller, draw weight, draw length, Static cam position(brace height). The holes are for reference not a measurment tool.


----------



## bassman409

Not to change the subject but, your control cable is on backwards. See how the bare string is wrapping around the top cam, you want the end with the longest servings at the top. You are very close now. I would put 2 twists in the buss and 8 in the string.


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## Hoyt Thompson

good catch I was not paying attention to that. you need to flip you CC cause that will will wear it out fast.


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## ryan82

Oh crap thanks guys for pointing that out! I turned the control cable around. I've got another question you guys might be able to help me out with. I got my A2A down pretty close and i thought I'd throw a few turns in my string to try and get it down the rest of the way and shorten my draw length as it is still 1/4 inch long. Question tho, how many turns can I put in my string before it's too many? Right now each turn is about an inch apart and at full draw the served portion leading to the top and bottom cams has a bit of a bend to it. Will this settle out after it's shot or is this going to be a problem? I can a picture or two up later today if that would help.


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## Hoyt Thompson

many including me do not like to put more than 1 twist per inch in it. Measure from the beginning of one color to the same spot on the SAME color to measure this.
Now I have a question.
did you order the strings to the specs on the tune sheet?


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## Hoyt Thompson

> at full draw the served portion leading to the top and bottom cams has a bit of a bend to it.


Huh? Pic would be nice because I do not know what you mean.


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## ryan82

The pictures didn't turn out great but maybe you can see what I'm talking about with the string. The hoyt tune chart calls for a 53 inch string in my case so I bought a 53 inch fuse. Did I mess up?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

First your lean is caused by to much tension on the buss and not enough on the control cable.
This will be easier if you call me. sending you a PM with my number.
As far as the string being ordered from the tune chart those lengths are meausered in AMO standards of measuring strings which is 1/4" pegs while untwisted, and put under 100# of tension for 30 seconds. you finished strin could be as much as 1/4" shorter.


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## ryan82

Sorry I didn't phone hoytthompson, just got back on the computer to check the forum. I got rid of the string twisting problem. I must have twisted my string up backwards (i didn't know there was such a thing) when I was measuring my string outstretched. Once I twisted it the right way, things started working out a little better. I've got the bow to the point where I'm almost bang on with all my measurements.  My A2A is right on at 33 1/8, my brace height is right on at 7, my draw length is now to spec at 27.5, and my tiller measurements are even on both top and bottom. The only thing that doesn't line up is the reference hole on the bottom cam. I'll post a picture. The other concern I have is that when I knock an arrow it sits 90 degrees to the string before I draw. At full draw the arrow looks like it sits slightly elevated at the knock end. Could this be due to my cams still not being in sync?


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## ryan82

Here's my cams.


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## Hoyt Thompson

ryan82 said:


> Sorry I didn't phone hoytthompson, just got back on the computer to check the forum. I got rid of the string twisting problem. I must have twisted my string up backwards (i didn't know there was such a thing) when I was measuring my string outstretched. Once I twisted it the right way, things started working out a little better. I've got the bow to the point where I'm almost bang on with all my measurements. My A2A is right on at 33 1/8, my brace height is right on at 7, my draw length is now to spec at 27.5, and my tiller measurements are even on both top and bottom. The only thing that doesn't line up is the reference hole on the bottom cam. I'll post a picture. The other concern I have is that when I knock an arrow it sits 90 degrees to the string before I draw. At full draw the arrow looks like it sits slightly elevated at the knock end. Could this be due to my cams still not being in sync?


Ok you did not mention draw stop timing. Did you get that worked out?


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## ryan82

Ya the draw stops are bang on also. I shot the bow in my garage lastnight and it shot better than ever before. Fletched and unfletched arrows were going through paper making bullet holes at 6ft. Does this mean I'm close?


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## Hoyt Thompson

I would paper tune at 4 ft in front of the bow. Then walk back or french tune to set center shot. Sounds like you have it if you have met the real targets of bow tuning. Draw weight. Draw length, Even Tiller, Even draw stop timing, and Brace Height/static cam position.
I would move on to creep tuning and see if you need to twist a little bit and call it good.


----------



## adconner

*Noisey Vectrix*

My Vectrix seems real loud when i shoot, is it me or do they all rattle when you shoot them. I have checked everything for tightness, i have taken it back to the pro shop to have the timing checked. everything seems right. anyone have any ideas of what it could be?? It shoots great. Thanks


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

adconner said:


> My Vectrix seems real loud when i shoot, is it me or do they all rattle when you shoot them. I have checked everything for tightness, i have taken it back to the pro shop to have the timing checked. everything seems right. anyone have any ideas of what it could be?? It shoots great. Thanks


set up a video camera watching you as you shoot. Your ears proximity to the string makes it sound louder than it really is. Watch the video and se how loud it really is. If it is loud then I would imagine that some tuning is in order. I know the guys told you it was right but unless I see it being right then I always doubt it.


----------



## CanadianNorth

*bow tuning and cam swapping.....*

ok,

I think I know the answer to this one....

First off - I' m not trying to hijack this threat, but it seems a good place to ask this question.

I am looking for lefty cams, and they're hard to come by..... 

why couldn't you reverse the cams from a right handed bow onto a left? Would it work?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Wow no questions here since the 20th? Did everyone just quit shooting Hoyts?


----------



## josh_X_wny

I have a question. lol

I just got a new to me VTEC and went through the most of the steps last night, got my tiller set, as well as the cam stop timing. I ran out of time but when I was finished for the night my draw wt. was only 64lbs (60-70lb bow). After reading through all these pages, if I put some turns in both cables it will bring up my DW? I have not checked DL yet. Is it going to take a lot of twists to bring up the DW 6 lbs?

2nd question..creep tuning.....if you are shooting high what do you twist and vice versa? I assume (have not done it yet) this will change your draw stop timing. If my assumption is right and you are say a little under rotated on the top cam to get the creep right, can you set your bows a little under rotated on the top cam initially or is it a case by case situation?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

first question yes and maybe.

Second questio, refer to the first page of this thread and the creep tuning outline should be there about 8 posts or so down.


----------



## pyrilium

*Pictures?*

I'm reading this thread and thinking about tuning my excursion, but have a couple of questions about the thread itself. 

First, people in earlier posts made mention of pictures or slides that went along with Javi's original instructions but I don't see them in the first couple posts. Have the images been removed? I don't think I'll have trouble working with the text and other posts only, but it would be interesting to see what was originally there. 

Second, Hoyt Thompson you mentioned that using the "boat roller" style press can "twist" a hoyt badly... what did you mean? Does this refer to unevenly pressing the pair of split limbs? Would this apply with a beefy horizontal press? How about a cable/strap press that applies tension at the end of the limbs (a la bowtec and other portables)? I am planning to (probably) build a press for my bow for home tuning, and I want to know what will work best for a split-limb bow like my reflex. 

Thanks! This thread has been super-informative!


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

pyrilium said:


> I'm reading this thread and thinking about tuning my excursion, but have a couple of questions about the thread itself.
> 
> First, people in earlier posts made mention of pictures or slides that went along with Javi's original instructions but I don't see them in the first couple posts. Have the images been removed? I don't think I'll have trouble working with the text and other posts only, but it would be interesting to see what was originally there.
> 
> Second, Hoyt Thompson you mentioned that using the "boat roller" style press can "twist" a hoyt badly... what did you mean? Does this refer to unevenly pressing the pair of split limbs? Would this apply with a beefy horizontal press? How about a cable/strap press that applies tension at the end of the limbs (a la bowtec and other portables)? I am planning to (probably) build a press for my bow for home tuning, and I want to know what will work best for a split-limb bow like my reflex.
> 
> Thanks! This thread has been super-informative!


It means that a boatroller press uses boat rollers to hold the bow by pressing the riser.
Hoyt makes a very strong riser but it is only strong for what it was designed to do. It does not take mush mechanical pressure on the riser to involve "torque". If you look at the TEC riser it has a large "strut" on the back side giving it a lot of loading pressure from the limbs and drawing eccentrics. We will call this linear stress. (think thats right)
Now if you were to put it in a press and the pressure of the press was uneven then you r top limb side of the riser would want to go right or left and the bottom vice versa. This riser was not designed for thos type of stress and will twist. This would be a form of latteral stress. (Think that is the right word)

Just like you can put 4 million pounds on a bridge. all that weight pressing down goes through the trusses and struts under the bridge evenly distributing the weight and performs flawlessly, like it was designed to do.
Take the same bridge will 1 million pounds and add a tornado or hurricane and the bridge could fall due to the "laterall stress" from the high winds pressing on it sideways and from underneath. The bridge could "twist" itself apart.

Does this help?


----------



## pyrilium

Yes, I think this helps a lot. When you said twist, I thought you meant twist of the limbs rather than twist of the riser; now I understand what you meant (not to contradict either way; I simply am trying to learn). The bridge analogy certainly seems appropriate; the riser is very strong with direct, in-line compressive loading but not very strong to lateral or torsional loading as it doesn't need to sustain that kind of load in the real world. Out of curiousity, if you know, how does Hoyt/Reflex instruct a shop to secure the riser when pressing their bows in a benchtop press? Is the press described in another sticky in this forum a so-called boat-roller press? 

From what you said, it seems that a portable press that pulls evenly inward on the limb tips or near the limb tips should be safe to use for tuning or peep adjustment on a reflex/hoyt? This is what I have in mind to build or buy right now. It seems like a horizontal press would be OK too, this being a type that pulls the bow, via the riser/grip, into a pair of fixed rollers to press the limbs?

Anyone know what happened to the pictures from the first post, BTW? 

Thanks! 

Jon



Hoyt Thompson said:


> It means that a boatroller press uses boat rollers to hold the bow by pressing the riser.
> Hoyt makes a very strong riser but it is only strong for what it was designed to do. It does not take mush mechanical pressure on the riser to involve "torque". If you look at the TEC riser it has a large "strut" on the back side giving it a lot of loading pressure from the limbs and drawing eccentrics. We will call this linear stress. (think thats right)
> Now if you were to put it in a press and the pressure of the press was uneven then you r top limb side of the riser would want to go right or left and the bottom vice versa. This riser was not designed for thos type of stress and will twist. This would be a form of latteral stress. (Think that is the right word)
> 
> Just like you can put 4 million pounds on a bridge. all that weight pressing down goes through the trusses and struts under the bridge evenly distributing the weight and performs flawlessly, like it was designed to do.
> Take the same bridge will 1 million pounds and add a tornado or hurricane and the bridge could fall due to the "laterall stress" from the high winds pressing on it sideways and from underneath. The bridge could "twist" itself apart.
> 
> Does this help?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Go to Hoyts websit and download any owners manual and it shows you the types not to use. The style you mentioned that pulls from the center is a big no no as well.

Look at any press that is simialr to the action and movement of the SureLoc or Last Chance Archery.

A portable is nice for what it is but, to effeciently tune a bow you really need a bench top press. You can do it with a portable but it will take a lot more work.

As for the pics. Look in the 200's section of this thread, they had to be reposted. 

The PP slide has long been taken down. This is actually quite an old method. Mike has said he has thought about redoing it but he has been met with so much conflict over his tuning method (and he was just plain trying to help others with it) he just does not feel he will ever fool with it.

I for one appreciate his orginal post and starting this thread. I would have eventually figured it out but with his help and guidelines I figured it out faster and that alone is worth it. 
Some do not relieze that what works for me may not work for you especially a "written recipe" for bow tuning. I also appreciate all the other help he has given me when I was just plain over thinking a situation. I guess you can say I consider him a mentor and I have never physically met him.

sorry for digressing towards the end but it is just something I think all should know.


----------



## pyrilium

Hoyt,

Thanks for all of your input, particularly the point about looking at a Hoyt owner's manual. I misplaced my Reflex manual, and their website (the Reflex division) is pretty lousy for getting actual information. 

I understand what kind of shop press you're talking about now, though I suspect I'll be working with a portable press for a while until I get to the point where I'm seeing its limitations. As much as I'd like a full-size press to start out, money and space dictate otherwise for the moment :sad: Still, I think it'll be sufficient to show me how nice it is to tune my own bow.

As for your digression at the end, I actually quite appreciate it. Threads like this make me very happy, and I'm extremely thankful to Mike for starting it as well as you and everyone else who has subsequently contributed. When I get to be more experienced, I hope I too can contribute to the collective knowledge.


----------



## josh_X_wny

I want to say thank you to everyone on this thread it has been extremely helpful. I have 3 hoyts with the Cam 1/2, and after going through this thread I realized all of them have an issue with cam timing or sync. I am working on my newest bow to get it set.

I worked on it last night. Its a 2005 VTEC 29" 70lbs bow. My problem now is with the draw weight. I started from scratch last night and got my cam sync, tiller, timing, A-A, Draw length set according to these pages and the tune charts. The problem is my draw weight is only 66lbs MAX. I do not plan on shooting more then 66 but I would to have the bow correct. I tried putting more twists in the cables but I do not have a floating yoke and it was twisting the top cam to the point I had to put some twists in one side of the yoke to get my cam lean out of it. Any more twists in the buss and I will be past 1 twist/in. My BH is the only other thing not at specs it is about 1/8" short right now. Bow seems to shoot well, it has the best wall I have ever had on my hoyts. 

What could be causing the low DW? Could I have too long of cables? I just bought this bow and it has newer "Rock Solid" string and cables. No matter what I tried I could not get 70lbs draw. I have checked with 2 scales so I would be suprised if both were reading low.


----------



## wblackfin

pyrilium said:


> ....First, people in earlier posts made mention of pictures or slides that went along with Javi's original instructions but I don't see them in the first couple posts. Have the images been removed? I don't think I'll have trouble working with the text and other posts only, but it would be interesting to see what was originally there.......



*See post # 246- I reposted the pictures there.*


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

josh_hoyt_wny said:


> I want to say thank you to everyone on this thread it has been extremely helpful. I have 3 hoyts with the Cam 1/2, and after going through this thread I realized all of them have an issue with cam timing or sync. I am working on my newest bow to get it set.
> 
> I worked on it last night. Its a 2005 VTEC 29" 70lbs bow. My problem now is with the draw weight. I started from scratch last night and got my cam sync, tiller, timing, A-A, Draw length set according to these pages and the tune charts. The problem is my draw weight is only 66lbs MAX. I do not plan on shooting more then 66 but I would to have the bow correct. I tried putting more twists in the cables but I do not have a floating yoke and it was twisting the top cam to the point I had to put some twists in one side of the yoke to get my cam lean out of it. Any more twists in the buss and I will be past 1 twist/in. My BH is the only other thing not at specs it is about 1/8" short right now. Bow seems to shoot well, it has the best wall I have ever had on my hoyts.
> 
> What could be causing the low DW? Could I have too long of cables? I just bought this bow and it has newer "Rock Solid" string and cables. No matter what I tried I could not get 70lbs draw. I have checked with 2 scales so I would be suprised if both were reading low.


You would be correct. If you order Hoyts posted string lengths as finished lengths then they are too long.
I showed everyone what ordering you string too long would be like in my DVD and you can ask anyone who has seen it that they were twisted up very tight. About 1 twist for every 3/4 inch. Also your A2A will be shorter than what the Hoyt cahrts say in most cases.


----------



## josh_X_wny

Thanks!. I ordered a new set of Bucknasty strings yesterday. (I had a broken strand by the peep too) Hopefully I will be able to pull it into specs when I get the new strings. Thanks Again


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

josh_hoyt_wny said:


> Thanks!. I ordered a new set of Bucknasty strings yesterday. (I had a broken strand by the peep too) Hopefully I will be able to pull it into specs when I get the new strings. Thanks Again


Your welcome....I think.....


----------



## MTNMAN5C

*Success*

Ok, finally finished up tuning my Vectrix XL. I read Javi's posts and also ordered Hoyt Thomson's DVD. Took me about a couple of hours to bench tune the bow and I got everything close. Biggest offset was my brace height being 3/16" long, but everything else in tune. Also ended up with the string really twisted up, so I didn't want to twist any more. Went to the range this morning and creep tuned, then shot broadheads out to 50 yrds. Bow is shooting broadheads dead on with field tips at all distances. Thanks to all the help on this thread. Good work guys.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

Good deal brotha!
I did not mention this in the DVD because, at the time, i did not know this.
The berger hole is not always dead above the deep part of the grip or the "throat" if you will.
When I did it on the video, I did not make it to the center of the berger hole either. You will know if you brace is bottomed out if the lower end of the cams actually starts moving away from the string. Then you definately know the string is to short.
Alway double check to see if your berger hole is directly over the throat. 

Also this may wind up being an issue for those like me that removed the originall full wood grip and went to side plates on the grip.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

You should beon the right course.

I thought you bought one of my dvds?

Try this.

Start over.

Measure the strings to Hoyts laid out lengths.

Put the strings on the bow.

Twist both cc and bc till the top of the top axle to the bottom of the bottom axle are at Hoyts measurements.

Check weight. Probably low.

Set draw stop timing.

Check weight.

set an even tiller.

check weight

Recheck Draw stop timing.

Check weight.

Set BH/DL with the string.

Check everything. Should be real close to right on from here.

Check weight


----------



## jasonpa

dwagoner said:


> yeah i read all those and the marks are pretty forgiving for sure. I wasnt sure about dual cam/binary cam bows and tuning cuz these hoyts are my first always had solo cams which are pretty easy. Seems that the C2 cam setup is not very well explained in the manuals like the cam+1/2 adjustable. Once i get it set up correctly and lower the poundage should i have many problems with anything going out of wack any?
> 
> My DL does feel short but i cant say for sure cuz im still setting up and only drew back when i got it to make sure it was ok.


I found this in my Hoyt manual.

Note: To verify that the factory specs (cam orientation, draw lenght, draw weight, brace height, axle-to-axle, etc.) of your bow are correct, it is important to have your bow at peak poudage (tighten lib bolts all the way and back them out 1/4 turn) and ensure proper string and cable lengths. Lengths of the strings and cables should be measured with approximately 100 pounds of tension. Add or remove twists to obtain the proper length.


Interesting that they say max the limbs out and then back off 1/4 turn and check specs.


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## Hoyt Thompson

jasonpa said:


> I found this in my Hoyt manual.
> 
> Note: To verify that the factory specs (cam orientation, draw lenght, draw weight, brace height, axle-to-axle, etc.) of your bow are correct, it is important to have your bow at peak poudage (tighten lib bolts all the way and back them out 1/4 turn) and ensure proper string and cable lengths. Lengths of the strings and cables should be measured with approximately 100 pounds of tension. Add or remove twists to obtain the proper length.
> 
> 
> Interesting that they say max the limbs out and then back off 1/4 turn and check specs.


yes by doing this you leave a very small gap between the limb pocket and riser eliminate the possibility of vibrational noise there.


----------



## jasonpa

Hoyt Thompson said:


> yes by doing this you leave a very small gap between the limb pocket and riser eliminate the possibility of vibrational noise there.


I thought it was more so that way you could get the extra 2 pounds or what have you out of the bow?

Another interesting thing I checked was if I turn the limb bolts all the way down there still is a small gap between the riser..


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## Hoyt Thompson

really at full turn down mine lays pretty flat on the riser.....

if you are getting 2# for every quarter tunr something is bad wrong.
tune it how you wish. Hoyt USA only recommends that you turn it down a 1/4 turn.


----------



## jasonpa

Hoyt Thompson said:


> really at full turn down mine lays pretty flat on the riser.....
> 
> if you are getting 2# for every quarter tunr something is bad wrong.
> tune it how you wish. Hoyt USA only recommends that you turn it down a 1/4 turn.


Good point, I think I ment a half a pound as that would make more sense?


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## piton

How does one measure the draw length on there bow?


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## wblackfin

piton said:


> How does one measure the draw length on there bow?


Welcome to A/T

See this link

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=711335

This thread is for questions dealing specifically with the tuning of hybrid cam bows. General tuning questions should be placed under the bow tuning heading. 
Again welcome on board there is a wealth of knowledge here!


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## piton

awesome, thank you.


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## Hoyt Thompson

dwagoner said:


> LOL of course i did, but have i sat down and watched the whole thing yet? NO LOL started another PT job so ive been pretty swamped with everything going on, also a 2 month old son so as you can see ive been pretty busy. Went with everything ive read and learned from you and JAVI and tried it, i kinda am that type, i seem to do things the hard way sometimes then it sinks in better. Thanks for the help ill get it done prolly this week.


Understand totally.....
good luck with the young'un.
Yeah I learn lessons like that too sometimes.


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## pezboytate

Ok,
I'm new to anything other than 2 cams. I am trying to tune my bow, but I think I am just guessing now. I have a Katera XL and the tune chart says;

Brace Height 7 3/8
Axle to Axle 35 1/2
Draw Length 28

What I come up with is;

Brace Height 7 1/2
Axle to Axle 35 3/4
Draw Length 28
Weight with limbs bottomed out 60#
Top Tiller 9 1/8
Bottom Tiller 9 1/32

I keep adjusting but whenever I get one thing right the other things are wrong. I am most worried about my tiller at this point. My cam sync, draw length, and draw length are all good right now. Thanks.
Dustin


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## Hoyt Thompson

the easiest way is fo rme to show you.

http://archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=692435


----------



## wblackfin

pezboytate said:


> Ok,
> I'm new to anything other than 2 cams. I am trying to tune my bow, but I think I am just guessing now. I have a Katera XL and the tune chart says;
> 
> Brace Height 7 3/8
> Axle to Axle 35 1/2
> Draw Length 28
> 
> What I come up with is;
> 
> Brace Height 7 1/2
> Axle to Axle 35 3/4
> Draw Length 28
> Weight with limbs bottomed out 60#
> Top Tiller 9 1/8
> Bottom Tiller 9 1/32
> 
> I keep adjusting but whenever I get one thing right the other things are wrong. I am most worried about my tiller at this point. My cam sync, draw length, and draw length are all good right now. Thanks.
> Dustin



I remembered seeing a post similar to yours that Javi answered here's what he had to say:




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by lungbuster14 View Post
> I got my bow in spec everything is dead on except the tiller its 2mm less on the bottom and i cant seem to get rid of it everytime i get rid of it it throws my draw stop off and then when i fix the draw stop the tiller goes back to being 2mm off how do i fix this?





> Put a 1/2 twist in the cable going to the short side and take a 1/2 twist out of the cable going to the long side...
> __________________
> Mike "Javi" Cooper



Once you have the *Draw stop, Sync (tiller), DW and DL* set correctly I would not worry about the small differences in Brace and ATA. The first four I mentioned are the important ones.


----------



## PA.JAY

*Got questions on new bow !*










OK NOW the cams top first










bottom cam










see the holes that the cables are close to ?? with the Z3 CAMS are the for timing or anything ? if I get them to match the bows out of whack . draw stop would be off . now the D/W is good tiller perfect B/H PERFECT ATA perfect also . first hoyt go slow .. thanks


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

PA.JAY said:


> OK NOW the cams top first
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bottom cam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> see the holes that the cables are close to ?? with the Z3 CAMS are the for timing or anything ? if I get them to match the bows out of whack . draw stop would be off . now the D/W is good tiller perfect B/H PERFECT ATA perfect also . first hoyt go slow .. thanks


The holes method is still mentioned in the manual but really not used as much as it used to be. This was used more on the adjustable Cam and 1/2.

If the DST and tiller are good then you are golden. If the DW,DL and BH are on the you are ready to rock.


----------



## PA.JAY

Cool . this bow is 70# but man I grunt when I pull it back ! would a shorter ATA bow @ 70 be harder to pull 70 then a 37 ATA bow ? AND this the first bow I had in the last 5 years thats not putting B/H same as field points . WHATS up with that . B/H are hitting left . I have a 29 D/L & IT'S SHOOTING 309 with a 400 gr. arrow & 318 with a 353 arrow someone said thats to fast for that bow what you guys think ?


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## Hoyt Thompson

The Hoyts tend to like a stiffer spine than the charts show for it. You may want to lower the poundage and see if it comes back into line. Also you may need to tweak the rest slightly if that does not work.


----------



## PA.JAY

I'll try a lighter B/H see what that does . thanks ..


----------



## PA.JAY

STRING CONTROL BUSS
55.50 39 36

Is the buss cable size minus the yoke ? or would I subtract say 8 from 36 . 
thanks again if this was covered direct me to the page please .. thanks .


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

PA.JAY said:


> STRING CONTROL BUSS
> 55.50 39 36
> 
> Is the buss cable size minus the yoke ? or would I subtract say 8 from 36 .
> thanks again if this was covered direct me to the page please .. thanks .


Nope buss is measured from loop ends to loop end just like on any other string. The BC is the shorter one on Hybrid Cams.


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## Hoyt Thompson

If you are thingking of ordering new strings then do yourself a favor and make sure your bow is bench tuned and creep tuned, then pull you strings with out untwisting them and put a lot of pressure, say 100 # and measure them. This uis the only way to make sure you get string that will tune out right.


----------



## PA.JAY

thanks you for information ! your helping me out alot .. everyone ! the fuse string looks thick as heck . how many strands of 452x for a replacement string 22 strands ??


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

PA.JAY said:


> thanks you for information ! your helping me out alot .. everyone ! the fuse string looks thick as heck . how many strands of 452x for a replacement string 22 strands ??


I am no string maker..... yet. The FUSE strings I think are made from TS+ which would need more strands. Again I am not sure this is the case.
As far as I know 18 for the string and 20-22 for the cables should be about what any maker would do for stability no matter what the material.


----------



## sjb3

I tuned up an 05 pro-tec and all the specs are right on dl, ata, bh, tiller, but the draw weight is off 8 lbs only pulling 62 lbs, 60-70 lb bow. Is this possible or do you think it was a 50-60 lb bow?

My friend bought this bow used and there was no sticker but the dealer told him it was a 60-70 lb bow. I told him to call Hoyt with the s/n to find out for sure.


With everything being in spec. could I get 8 more lbs and still be ok?




thanks, sjb3


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

sjb3 said:


> I tuned up an 05 pro-tec and all the specs are right on dl, ata, bh, tiller, but the draw weight is off 8 lbs only pulling 62 lbs, 60-70 lb bow. Is this possible or do you think it was a 50-60 lb bow?
> 
> My friend bought this bow used and there was no sticker but the dealer told him it was a 60-70 lb bow. I told him to call Hoyt with the s/n to find out for sure.
> 
> 
> With everything being in spec. could I get 8 more lbs and still be ok?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks, sjb3


Sometimes limbs can settle but rarely do they settle that much especially seeing a 4 limbs would have to have done it.

I would say the safe bet is to get the info on it. Before calling Hoyt break the bow down and slide out the limbs to see if all 4 are the same deflection and what that deflection is. Serial number may be for a 70# bow but it has had at least one owner before him so the limbs may have been swapped out.

Hoyt's limbs are about as tough as they get but, I do not know if I would try to get 10# more from their rated weight. A few pounds is one thing 10 is another.


----------



## Brown Hornet

The serial number doesn't mean anything.....changing limbs only takes a few minutes.

He just needs to get the limb deflection # of the limb.

I can't see the bow being 8#s short in spec and twisted up correctly....if the cams were changed, the lbs could drop also.


----------



## sjb3

I was going to word the question alittle different but B H answered the question. I was wondering if it was possible to be off 8 lbs with everything in spec.

My friend isn't really worried about the poundage, said I saved him some money by not having to buy a lighter poundage bow.

And I think when he bought it he got another set of cams with it which were a longer dl. 28-30" now and the cams that weren't on the bow 29-31" I think.


Thanks guys.


----------



## redvt3

*PP pics*

where are the pics that Javi spoke about in the beginning of this thread?


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

redvt3 said:


> where are the pics that Javi spoke about in the beginning of this thread?


Check around post 225. They were reposted.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

dwagoner said:


> HOYT T - watching the DVD today at work and wondering why you say measure BH from berger and ive always used throat of grip? they just so close on most hoyts?


Yeah I did not show this in the video and should have. Most bows out there the berger hole is usually directly above the throat of the grip. Sometimes it is the middle some times it is the back edge. It is also easier to measure the bh using the square I was using and the berger hole method.

What I should have done is used a straight edge and lined it up to show where the throat lies in reference to the berger hole and shown all of that on video.

I did not do this during the shoot of the video because I thought I knew where the berger/hole throat line was. What I had forgotten is that this is not my first Trykon. The Trykon XL I have the berger hole is drilled a tad more forward than my previous one and that is why in the video you saw that I could not get my BH exactly "where I wanted it." That is the reason for that.

i will make sure if I do any more videos that i am more thorough on that area cause that should have been laid out right and not shortcutted.


----------



## redrockhunter

are hoyts the same as bowtech where you want to have the cables hitting the draw stops at the same time on both cams? i have a new katera 30 inch 70 lb. 33 3/4 ata out of the box, the adj draw stop hits the cable and the other stop is about a 1/4 inch from hitting the cable, haven't checked brace or lbs yet . any suggestions?


----------



## bassman409

Your a-a is 1/4 long and the top cam is under-rotated, both need to be corrected for best performance, either by you or the dealer that you got the bow from..


----------



## redrockhunter

i'll take care of it. thanks for the info.


----------



## slowbowin12

Hoyt Thompson said:


> Yeah I did not show this in the video and should have. Most bows out there the berger hole is usually directly above the throat of the grip. Sometimes it is the middle some times it is the back edge. It is also easier to measure the bh using the square I was using and the berger hole method.
> 
> What I should have done is used a straight edge and lined it up to show where the throat lies in reference to the berger hole and shown all of that on video.
> 
> I did not do this during the shoot of the video because I thought I knew where the berger/hole throat line was. What I had forgotten is that this is not my first Trykon. The Trykon XL I have the berger hole is drilled a tad more forward than my previous one and that is why in the video you saw that I could not get my BH exactly "where I wanted it." That is the reason for that.
> 
> i will make sure if I do any more videos that i am more thorough on that area cause that should have been laid out right and not shortcutted.


What is the berger hole and how do I get one of your videos? 
Thanks Scott.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

You can go to my web site tigermountainarchery.com

The berger hole id the mounting hole for the arrow rest.


----------



## Bryan Johnson

*Vector cam*

When using the drawstop in 65% l;etoff poistion should the top draw stop still hit . I understand that they both will in the 75% position but when you change to the 65% you are effectivly changing the draw lenght also. Thanks for anyone who replies.


----------



## Hoyt Thompson

I your Hoyt manual it will tell you that to use the 65% peg you will need to add 2 or 3 twist to the buss cable to keep the bow in tune.

If you are bench tuning one now and want the 65% then do so with the peg in and time your draw stops.

the draw length change is minimal and should not be a real noticeable amount.


----------



## vtec21

*05 vtec*

I have a 2005 vtec and just got new winners choice string and cables. My a2a measures 36.5, but my brace height is dead-on a 6.75. Cams roll-over perfectly, but should I take it back and have more twist put in the buss cable, etc.?


----------



## vtec21

*05 vtec*

I was wrong my brace height is 6 7/16. My cables already seem twisted a good bit, but I don't know how much they can be twisted.


----------



## trav99ss

I just put some new Vapor Trail strings on a Vantage X7. With the original strings, the bow was pretty much dead in the hand after the shot. Now there is some noticeable vibration. I tried tuning per the draw stop method, but whenever I get the draw stops aligned, my cam alignment lines on the bottom cam are both below the limbs. Any suggestions would be appreciated... this is driving me nuts.


----------



## thiessen3.14

trav, did you write down critical measurements (ata, bh, etc.) before you took the old string off? if not, you'll most likely have to start at square 1. which leads me to...

a question for javi...i just finished dialing in an x7 with c2 cams and your article was invaluable. however, when i got the bow it was way out, and when i let 10 or so twists out of the string and used the buss cable to get ata to 1/4" long, the bottom cam was rotated so far that the control cable was on top of itself at the peg. my question is, for the 10 untwists of the string to work right, does the string (and control cable, too, for that matter) have to be reasonably close to start with? i ended up extrapolating numbers from proelites and ultraelites with cam and a half and c2 to add/subract to the numbers for the x7 (on hoyt tuning page) to find a starting point--your method worked great from there.


----------



## helixarcher89

HI Javi..

i have a few things got to clarify as i am a new compound archer, i am not sure about the tuning you mention.

First few things i got to ask as i recently read a few forums and i do not understand as this 2 word appear in alot of threads:
- What is 'Valley' ?
Hmm.. i heard from a few folks that the valley is the point where the peak weight is before passing through the let-off..

- What is 'Solid Wall' ?
I heard is that is pulling to the draw stop.. But i am not too sure how solid it is.. 


Next is from your above post about sync cams:
you mention that 
"To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle ((usually ten twists will do)", hmm.. do you mean that you will twist the string until about 10 twists?

"If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistant from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out). " ok..So what if the reference hole are not equidistant? should i adjust the tiller or should i twist or untwist any strings or cables?

Next for cam timings.. i understand the points you mention above.. I have read up on creep tunings, it says that 
-firstly draw a horizontal line on a cardboard and put it on a target board.
- At twenty yards shoot 3 good shots pulling firmly against the wall (cam stops) all three should touch the line (only use your good shots). 
-Repeat the 3 shots this time allow the shot to creep into the valley a little (the cam stops should just separate from the point of contact).
-If the creep shot arrows are below the horizontal line, Tighten or shorten the cable which connects to the top cam.. So i would like to ask is if in this situation which cable should i shorten? buss or control cable?
-If the creep shot arrows are above the horizontal line, tighten or shorten the cable which connects to the bottom cams.. So and in this situation which cable should i shorten to get it in line?

hmm.. Do you have any photos to show whether the cam is sync or time? This will be a great help..

Thank you very much..
Hope you can help me..

Cheers..


----------



## wblackfin

helixarcher89

I'll take a shot at some of your questions.


What is 'Valley'?
Valley is the point of maximum let-off, most modern compound bows have a very short valley. On older compounds there was not much of a wall so after you reached the point of maximum let-off the force needed to pull back the sting would increase again. If you graph the draw force of a bow the line would look like a hill with a sudden drop off, hence valley.

What is 'Solid Wall' ?
Sold wall is just the feel of the bow when pulled against the draw stops after the point of max let off (valley). 
See picture below.

"To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle ((usually ten twists will do)", hmm.. do you mean that you will twist the string until about 10 twists?
What Javi is saying is to untwist (lengthen the string) so it does not have effect. ("I back the string off" This is American slang).

"If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistant from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out). " ok..So what if the reference hole are not equidistant? should i adjust the tiller or should i twist or untwist any strings or cables?

In Javi's method he uses an even tiller with the limb bolts turned all the way in (limbs bottomed out) to signify that the cams are in sync. He believes that method is more accurate than just using the reference holes. Usually when the cams are in sync the reference holes will also be equally or nearly equally spaced from the cables. ---- Yes, you would twist or untwist cables to make the tiller even (with limb bolts fully tightened) this will signify that the cams are in sync.

Do you have any photos to show whether the cam is sync or time? This will be a great help..

Javi did have pictures that were part of the original post. I don't know what happened but one day they were just gone. I had a copy of the pictures and reposted them at post #246 back in this thread.

OK now, to really understand Javi's method I suggest that you read through the posts in this thread. Just about all your questions have been asked before. Many have been asked multiple times with much discussion afterward. 

Hope I have helped you with some understanding of this method.


----------



## helixarcher89

HI WBlackfin..

Thank for your info.. now i am really understand into what he has mentions.. Thanks alot..

Cheers..


----------



## aobregon

*BH out of specs*



JAVI said:


> posting the other information in the thread as well... Hope this helps...
> 
> Hybrid Cam Sync & Timing
> By Mike Javi.... Cooper​
> 
> 
> The timing system on the hybrid cams is somewhat different from other systems.
> 
> The cams need to be in synchronization and in draw stop timing; these are two entirely different issues but interconnected. It is possible to have the cams in sync, but not in time and visa versa.
> 
> The string is for all practical purposes, just along for the ride, the buss cable (yoke) controls the bow, and it is used to set the axle to axle (limb) preload and takes most of the weight of the limb deflection at full draw. The control cable (slave) ties the two cams together so that they rotate at the required speeds.
> 
> The reference marks or holes (depending on the cam) are there to provide a visual reference to cam synchronization not draw stop timing. I find that tiller is a more precise indicator of cam sync; if the limbs are bottomed out the tiller will reflect the position of the cams better than the reference holes (marks).
> 
> To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out).
> 
> Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.
> 
> At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec.
> 
> I double check everything and tweak a half twist here or there to fine tune it.
> 
> Finally I use the hybrid cam creep tuning method to set the bow to my shooting style.
> 
> If you follow this method you will have a very solid wall and the bow will be practically vibration free.
> 
> A note: the regular cam & ½ should be tuned in the “D” draw length slot for best performance. You can then set the module to your required DL and tweak the DL using the string.



Great post.

This is my first time , I hope I am doing the right way.

I did the full process for sync and timing and the results regarding sync and timing were great, but the BH went out of specs.
Hoyt chart said 7" 1/2 BH and the final result after the process is 7" 7/8, almost 8".
The consequences are a slow bow and the string are about 1/2" away from the stealth shot bar.
My bow is a Katera XL 70-80 DW and 29" DL, cam number #5.
What went wrong and how can I fix it?
I appreciate very much all the help you can give me, I am going hunting next December, so I have a month to put it together and sharp.


----------



## tileman

3RD Time is a charm, It works perfectly, All I can say is read each step carefully and it does work, the only problems I ran into were because of MY misunderstanding of what was said. Thanks Javi for your time and effort in sharing this very valuable knowledge


----------



## bownarra

I'm tuning a PSE Mojo with NRG hybrid cams and following Javi's method. I'm just a bit confused by this paragraph and I'm wondering if there's a typo in it (the red bit)? Did he mean lengthening?



JAVI said:


> Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.


Ok, he's saying there are 2 ways to advance that under rotated top cam: *Shorten Buss* or *Lengthen Control*, and I'm _assuming _he means he'll pick the method that'll have the added benefit, while he's advancing the cam, of also getting the draw weight and draw length closer to what he eventually wants. Is my assumption correct? Why else would he mention basing which method he picks on DL and DW considerations?



> Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight


 - ok, no problems there.



> Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.


 - now this is where I get confused because to advance the cam we would lengthen the control cable ("untwist" in the paragraph above) not shorten it, so wouldn't that *increase *draw length and increase draw weight, which would be the same as what shortening the buss cable would do? That's why I'm wondering if the word in red should have been "Lengthening"?


----------



## bkb1911

*vantage x7 question*

i have a vantage x7 and want to put c2 cams on it i have the cams but can't find string and cable lengths. john from bucknasty said yoou could help. i know this is possible because i have seen a few on here for sale. i have a set of #2 cams that should make it 27". thanks for the help brian


----------



## Brown Hornet

bkb1911 said:


> i have a vantage x7 and want to put c2 cams on it i have the cams but can't find string and cable lengths. john from bucknasty said yoou could help. i know this is possible because i have seen a few on here for sale. i have a set of #2 cams that should make it 27". thanks for the help brian


That is a Custom Shop job....so unless someone runs into your question that has built one....you are gonna need to call Hoyt.


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## bkb1911

*have called*

i have called and john from bucknasty has called but hoyt told both of us they never built this setup.


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## dwagoner

then im sure if they cant help you it may be a trial and error thing. Just send JAVI a pm and ask him.


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## JezR

*Drawboard timing*

Thanks to Javi and everyone for a great post.
I have timed a new AM35 to virtually factory spec according to Javi. 
The question I have is that after synchronising the cams by checking the tiller and getting this exact. I then move to draw board and have to adjust control/buss cable to get both draw stops to synchronise together. Does this not then cause the tiller to go slightly out of spec? The tiller is not even without the draw stops going out of sync. So far 1/16 difference which I could only balance by backing bolts in and out of respective limbs.
Therefore is tiller with limbs tightened and backed off a quarter turn important if draw stops are correct? If so then how can I get tiller and draw stops correct?
Thanks in advance


----------



## SonnyThomas

Read Draw Stop again. Measuring the tiller is a way to check cam sync. Of the bows that I have set using Javi's method, none were effected by Draw Stop timing. Okay, sync the cams while obtaining timing and then you draw stop time. The timing marks or holes are for reference only - they are perfect. My favorite target bow, a ProElite, shows the the string almost dead center for the bottom cam and the string at the top cam is to the inner side of the side of the hole.


----------



## Black Mamba

HI Javi!

I have a 2004 Reflex Gamegetter Intruder cam&1/2.
These are the specs.

Draw weight 50-60
Draw Lenght 27"-30" (step 1")
ATA 39.5"
BH 7.75"
String 56"
Buss Cable 41.75"
Control Cable 44.5"

How do I set cam modules before starting cam tuning? (27"?, 28"?, 29"? or 30"?). I've 27" DL.

Are string and cable lenghts for untwisted under 100# (standard AMO) or are they for twisted? I made a set of string and cable but they are (0.5"-0.75") too long so I think thet are for untwisted.

Thanks


----------



## StevenS

NEED HELP! Vantage X7 is totally out. ATA and BH are off around 1/4. Took everything off got them twisted to specs put it back together and still way off. Whats the trick to this bow!! No matter what i try i cant get it to come back to spec.


----------



## wblackfin

StevenS said:


> NEED HELP! Vantage X7 is totally out. ATA and BH are off around 1/4. Took everything off got them twisted to specs put it back together and still way off. Whats the trick to this bow!! No matter what i try i cant get it to come back to spec.


I don't have first hand experience with the Vantage X7, but like the other cam & 1/2 bows it is a balancing act to get everything to spec.Twisting the strings up and putting them on the bow will get you close. If using Javi's method you now need to follow his technique from the *start, without short cuts*. Remember your ATA & Brace do not need to be dead on. The important specs are DL, DW, timing and sync. Once those are on a small amount of variance in ATA & Brace are fine. But 1/4" is probably a little much.


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## keyman

Javi,
If you still come here and read this, get ahold of me. I remember when I asked you to use your info on the PSE forum and you approved. I was just tuning to part of what you have on the hoyt thread. I just went back and not just read your post on this sync/timing thread but I studied and even tried to read between the lines of what you were saying about studying the harness system and how it worked and if something was moved, what all did it effect. 
Well, I just bought a used bow off here and set it up and it would not shoot. 3" paper tears with tail high right out of a right handed bow at 4-5 yards. I tried everything to fix it with the loop, rest, tiller, timing, etc. Nothing made an effect on it. I shot a bare shaft and at 10 yards, it hit 8" low left and tore a 3" tear in the paper target hanging on the target from it hitting almost sideways at 10 yards. I was frustrated. 
Well, after reading your post again and going out and looking at the bow and trying to figure it out, I then come back in and read more and more. 
It finally lit up like a light bulb of what you were saying. I went back out and changed what all I thought you were wanting changed and got it almost perfect and tried it. Wow, lots better so I knew I was going the right direction. That was at 3am and had to go to bed. I got off work tonight and had to watch the Sooner girls scrape by the Baylor Lady Bears on tape. Then went out and went to work on it some more. Twisted and fixed some more and tried it. Draw length was ALOT better and specs were right on with the Hoyt website. I shot bare shaft and it was close. Checked timing at full draw and it needed one more full twist in the control cable. After that, reset tiller back to even and raised the rest slightly. I shot the fletched arrow and it was an X on a vegas at 10 yards. Shot the bare shaft and it broke the nock on the fletched shaft at 10 yards. 
What a difference. I would have never thought it needed to be more than timed at full draw but the whole thing matters. No shortcuts. 

Thanks again Mike and email me or get ahold of me where you are posting now and how you are doing. 
Vaughn Rader


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## contndr

Thanks Javi for this awesome post. After reading it, I ordered new cables and string and replaced them myself, for the first time ever. I adjusted everything as in your post and everything came out just fine and the bow shoots better than when I bought it new a year ago.

Thanks again
Contndr
2006 Hoyt Trykon
Team Turbonock Shooter


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## dwagoner

KEYMAN i heard hes not using AT anymore,


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## dwagoner

wblackfin said:


> I don't have first hand experience with the Vantage X7, but like the other cam & 1/2 bows it is a balancing act to get everything to spec.Twisting the strings up and putting them on the bow will get you close. If using Javi's method you now need to follow his technique from the *start, without short cuts*. Remember your ATA & Brace do not need to be dead on. The important specs are DL, DW, timing and sync. Once those are on a small amount of variance in ATA & Brace are fine. But 1/4" is probably a little much.


yes and if your within say 1/8" or less on ATA and BH with other specs good i wouldnt worry about anything else. Most will say within 1/8" is allowable.


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## keyman

dwagoner said:


> KEYMAN i heard hes not using AT anymore,



Yeah, it is a shame. I haven't heard from Javi but I got some PM's from a guy named Mike Cooper that seems as smart as Javi. Thanks anyways.


----------



## TackWest1

*Awesome post. Things to consider*

First off, thank you for the awesome sticky. I spent the time to tune my vectrix. I had prevouisly set the draw stop timing and had it down, but after synchronizing the cams and setting the bow to factory settings, I couldn't believe how much easier the bow drew and shot. However, I had a hard time getting the BH correct, it was always at least 3/16" too long, if not more. I finally discovered that if I put the original grip on (I use the side plates) the BH was dead on. I didn't take into account the extra thickness of the original grip, how dumb is that? Anyway, just something to be aware of.
Chris


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## MasterG

*Ultra elite*

Looking for tuning information on C2 cams?  Can anyone enlighten me as to best methods? do I follow the same method as the Cam &1/2? 

Thanks


----------



## Brown Hornet

MasterG said:


> Looking for tuning information on C2 cams?  Can anyone enlighten me as to best methods? do I follow the same method as the Cam &1/2?
> 
> Thanks


Use the same method. 

The harness system is the same on both cams....the cams are just a little different.


----------



## keyman

MasterG said:


> Looking for tuning information on C2 cams?  Can anyone enlighten me as to best methods? do I follow the same method as the Cam &1/2?
> 
> Thanks


Hi Tony,
BH is correct. That is how I set my C2 cams as well as my Cam and half plus. It works really well. With both shoulders being operated on in the last 15 months, you can't tell from my scores but my bows are all shooting better due to this and other tuning methods I started putting more effort into. 
Good luck shooting this year.


----------



## BlueRidge

*Z3*

Has anyone done this setup on a set of Z3 cams?

My Z3's don't appear to have reference holes so I'm assuming you would synch at brace by measuring tiller.


----------



## dwagoner

they still have the lines on the sides for referance between the cams and limbs, if there inbetween the lines your fine, BUT with it timed correctly and DL set correctly it will be inbetween the lines, referance holes or not doesnt really matter


----------



## cell

*backstop*

nice write up.i have one question tho.i have a 05 reflex with cam1/2. in the instructions it mentioned b/s on both cams,but i only have one b/s on the bottom cam.so.......am im supposed to have two b/s's? 

thanks.


----------



## cell

*du..nevermind there is only one b/s on mybow*

tried to delete the post after i found the answer but it didn't work.

thanks :darkbeer:


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## mpschore

Thanks alot!


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## munindra

[email protected] for this greart thread:thumbs_up


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## dgallow

Javi,

Used your tuning method on my am32 and it shoots awesome now...one turn in buss corrected creep. Life is good now!

Originally tiller was out by an 1/8 and stop timing by 3/16th...that drove me crazy...a little vibration but the wall was terrible!

I understand the balancing act between tiller and stop timing. So what would be an acceptable difference in tiller for a tuned bow...< 1/32"?

Also could you(anyone) email me a printable version of the process and maybe some pics if u still have them, when u have time? This would be much appreciated! 

Thanks for your time and efforts!
Doug
[email protected]


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## wblackfin

dgallow,

Last I heard Javi was no longer active on A/T (our loss). 
If you go to post #246 in this thread you will find pictures re-posted that Javi originally did.


----------



## wazzaab

Hi .
I have little problem with my turbotec 70#. I have twisted and turned then shot few times (shot and sounded pretty good already) . Now problem is ata is 8mm long ,bh is 3mm short and dw is only 66# . timing is right tiller is even . What you recommend to do . 

( SORRY FOR mm I DON'T HOW INCHES GO TO ?/? )


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## bassman409

Twisting both cables and the string will increase your DW to closer to 70#. Try 4 twists in each cable and 6 in the string and then check timing again.


----------



## RhinoJames

How do I know if my Slam.5 needs tuning? The bow works great, but I'd like the best performance I can get out of it.

I'm totally new to bow tuning so any help I can get is appreciated.


----------



## wblackfin

First, check that the bow is in spec or *very* close with regard to DL, DW, Brace height and A-to-A measurements. Then check that the Draw stop timing and cam sync are set correctly according to Javi's instructions. The Slam & 1/2 tunes the same as the example given by Javi. If you have not looked yet see the pictures in post # 246 back in this thread.

When I first got my Highlander I thought it shot great too. But after learning how to get the timing and sync spot on it not only shot more consistent but felt better to shoot. 

If you plan on trying to do the work yourself keep in mind that trying to get everything set correctly is a bit of a balancing act. Don't get too discouraged if it takes several attempts at getting it right. There is a bit of a learning curve. Fortunately if you have questions as you go along there are people here willing to help.


----------



## dillio67

*First New Hoyt AM 35*

I untwist my string as per Javi's account and I cant get this thing near 1/4 long ATA to start with.secondly what reference marks am i looking at for step 2???

Thanks guys for you help


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## wblackfin

Javi wrote the Cam & ½ tuning info before the advent of parallel limb bows. Most people have stated that with parallel limbs you should look to get about 1/8” longer ATA.


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## dillio67

*Thanks...got it*

Thanks I watched the vid again and realized I missed some due to multi-tasking.Hoyt is all new to me.Some guys have been a great help..thanks for being one of them


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## Fugitive6

OK. I've tuned two of my bows and just tackled my sons banshee but I have a question. He has the cam 1/2 youth but there are no c or d holes. I maxed the draw stop out to 26" (where he shoots anyway) and timed it there. Did i do it right or should I have timed it at 22 or 23? It shoots fine but a little to the right before i had to adjust his center shot.

Thanks for the help.


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## T.Wallace

Thanks for the info and I will be using this for sure when I get my new strings.


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## flybub

Hey all. I just finished bench tuning my Vectrix. First time I've ever done it and it went pretty well for the most part. 2 things though:

1. my BH I cant quite get. I really twisted up my strings (added 20 twists) and I dont want to twist them any more, but my DL is dead nuts. I need 7" and I'm a hair over 7-1/8". I know the tune chart is a reference so is 1/8" within ok?

2. the most DW i can get is 57# on 60# limbs according to my scale (american weigh 110). I took the draw stop peg out to bench tune it. will i need to twist anything when i put the peg back in to creep tune? If I do will this bring my draw weight up at all?

Thanks for the help


----------



## flybub

flybub said:


> Hey all. I just finished bench tuning my Vectrix. First time I've ever done it and it went pretty well for the most part. 2 things though:
> 
> 1. my BH I cant quite get. I really twisted up my strings (added 20 twists) and I dont want to twist them any more, but my DL is dead nuts. I need 7" and I'm a hair over 7-1/8". I know the tune chart is a reference so is 1/8" within ok?
> 
> 2. the most DW i can get is 57# on 60# limbs according to my scale (american weigh 110). I took the draw stop peg out to bench tune it. will i need to twist anything when i put the peg back in to creep tune? If I do will this bring my draw weight up at all?
> 
> Thanks for the help


i forgot to add also that my Axle to Axle is 1/4" short. I followed Hoyt Thompsons DVD and everything came out perfect until I got to the BH.


----------



## Roskoe

You should be able to get one or two pounds over the max draw weight with the limbs maxed out. A 60 lb. bow should pull 61 or 62. If not, the cause is usually not enough twists in the buss cable. That will, of course, throw everything else out of whack and require you to tweak the string and control cable - but that should solve both problems.


----------



## flybub

Roskoe said:


> You should be able to get one or two pounds over the max draw weight with the limbs maxed out. A 60 lb. bow should pull 61 or 62. If not, the cause is usually not enough twists in the buss cable. That will, of course, throw everything else out of whack and require you to tweak the string and control cable - but that should solve both problems.




Hey Roskoe. I figured I could throw a couple twists in the Buss cable then time everything up again. I put 2 twists in the buss cable, then timed the cams with a coule twists in the control cable. I was then pulling 61.5 lbs. Unfortunately that threw my tiller off about 3/16" and the only way to get my tiller back was to take 2 twists out of both buss and control cables so I'm back to where I started. My DL is dead on, AtoA is 1/8" short, Timing dead on, Tiller dead on, BH 1/8" long. I checked my weight on a vertical scale and got 59# where as horizontally I was getting around 57. I checked the accuracy of my scale and it was dead on with my local pro shop.


----------



## cowan bowhunter

dfa


----------



## dchunter111

I'm converting a Pro Elite from C2 cam to Cam & half plus and wondering if to use the method Javi talks about that I have used in the past with the regular Cam & Half that works great.


----------



## TedBoezaart

*Hoyt Thompson's DVD*

Does anyone know where I can get hold of a copy of Hoyt Thompson's "InSpec" DVD? I missed th boat on it the first time, and his website just sayd that he'll be back in the spring (it's been saying that since last fall, I guess).

Thanks,


----------



## .308

*Need help please*

I have tried to follow the instructions and I'm at a dead end. I have sync'd the cams and the timing but the length is long and the weight is low. Twisting the string will fix the length but it will also drop the weight. What did I do wrong???? I have Katera XL 60-70# w/ cam & 1/2 plus. I set the DL module to D (29"). The axle to axle is 36" long now and the draw weight ids 68#. The draw length is 29 3/4". Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## .308

I think I got it - at least I'm at the point that I'm done  I was measuring the draw length usiing the berger hole which is about 1/4 longer than the pivot point. I've got the ATA to within 1/8". Draw is 1/4" long and BH and weight are dead on. Tiller is even and reference hole is good. Cams are timed. My nock ended up a little low and I corrected that. Now I just need to creep tune. Thanks for a very informative thread. 

Chris


----------



## gucho

*IF ANYONE STILL READS this!!*

Im having a question regarding what controlls what,
someone please deny or verify this for me,
Bus cable controlls the ATA, 
Controll cable determines timing between the 2 cams, while the bottom cam is stationary.
Does that mean that if the bottom cam is out of sync you need to adjust the buss cable?
wont that throw that ATA and the DL out of whack?

I dunno I need some more clarification, Much appreciated!!

Gucho


----------



## camomano

I'm going to time new spiral cams on my PE. The procedure says to set the control cable length to syncing the rotation of the cams. The end result would show equal distance on the reference marks. Well, spirals out of the box don't have reference marks. What can I use to see the that the cams are rotating in sync before I proceed to stop timing?


thanks
Tom


----------



## nogg

If I lengthen the dl by a 1/2'' on my sons trykon sport with cam 1/2 what other adjustments should be made?


----------



## NY-ARCHER

Ok, I need help on my Hoyt Maxxis 31. I twisted the bus cable and yoke to have the top and bottom cams hit at the same time. What I've noticed is that my draw length increased by a half inch and my poundage seems stiffer. Should I now twist the control cable to decrease the draw? My axle to axle should be 31inches. Right now it's 31.75. By twisting the control cable will this bring everything together? Also, how many twist to the control cable? And should I twist the string as well? 
Please help.


----------



## bassman409

If your cams are even at rest( measure tiller and see if it is the same at each end) then your control cable is fine. Looking at the tune charts from hoyt your a-a is not 31 if the bow is a 2010 model. Closest one is 31 1/4 and if you measure to the deepest part of the grip it will differ from measureing to the berger hole. Your next step should be to twist up the string about 2 turns for every twist you put into the buss. If you follow the setup by Javi in this thread with the parrallel limbs you should not start with a-a 1/4 inch long but 1/16 to 1/8 inch long.


----------



## NY-ARCHER

I'm thinking the Control cable is the cable that needs to be twisted. My buss/yoke and string have more twist in it than my control cable. According to his thread, it reads to twist the control cable to bring draw length back. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if i twist the control cable will it throw off the buss/yoke and string timing again?


----------



## asa1485

Yoy twist the one with the yoke until you get the A to A set right. Then you twist the other one until you get cams timed. Then , you twist the string until draw length is correct.


----------



## bigpuddin43

*I have a maxxis 31*

I plan on trying this out tom i was wondering i dont have a d module for my bow. do i need to go to the archery shop and get one just to tune it with this method or will it work with the B module i have in it. Thanks.


----------



## bassman409

Use what you have but check the specs in the tuning charts for your cam and module.


----------



## DarkFORCE

I have scan though most of this thread. My understanding is all this should be done while bow is at max draw weight, so limb bolts all the way down correct? Per the 04 Hoyt Manual the bolts should be backs out 5-7 turns. So are you pressing the bow at full weight while checking all this, or backing the bolts out, make the adjustments re-tighten the bolts and check?


----------



## bassman409

The manual is referring to pressing the bow when it says back out bolts 5-7 turns. This makes it easier on the limbs. Do all measuring with bolts all in. I have to say I and many others press their bows with the bolts tightened to max but for safety and hoyt reasons they recommend backing the bolts off to press.


----------



## DarkFORCE

bassman409 said:


> The manual is referring to pressing the bow when it says back out bolts 5-7 turns. This makes it easier on the limbs. Do all measuring with bolts all in. I have to say I and many others press their bows with the bolts tightened to max but for safety and hoyt reasons they recommend backing the bolts off to press.


Just making it a pain to do all this adjusting then tighten bolts. Measure. Loosen.. Adjust. Tighten. Measure.


----------



## Death-Dude

*AM 35 settings*

Hi, I have an alphamax 35, #70, #2 cams with draw modules "C", for 28" draw length. I noticed today that the draw stop post (perhaps that's not the right nomenclature?) is in position "E". Hoyt's chart says Module Position "C" for 28", which I assume means to use the "C" mod for that length, but no talk of the lower cam draw stop post. Should I leave it on "E", or put it to "D" as stated in the outset of this thread? What difference will it make in my draw? Was it an oversight by the Scheel's bow tech who installed the mods? Thanks!


----------



## Death-Dude

*Rtfm!!*

Maybe I've answered my own question, the manual says this:

After the desired draw modules are installed, the draw-stop that is located on the bottom cam needs to be adjusted. Remove the draw stop with a 1/16 Allen key and reinstall it in the threaded hole that corresponds with the letter on the cam module. For example: Cam module XR2A would use draw-stop peg position A.

By that, I think the draw stop should be in the "C" position...correct? Now, do I do that, or put it in "D" as stated in the beginning of this thread?


----------



## bassman409

Put it in the C hole to go with your C modules. The D position mentioned early in this thread is for the older cam 1/2 adjustable cams that can be adjusted without putting different draw length modules on the bow. Do your tuning with the bow set at 28 inchs and dont forget to check out the Creep Tuning thread that follows.


----------



## Shanwich

*Need a little help understanding the process*

Hopefully, folks still read and use this thread and will provide me with a little insight.

I've followed the instructions - untwisted the string, untwisted the buss and control cables to get A-2-A ~1/4" longer, synced the cams, and adjusted the timing. Now to my point of confusion. At this point in the process, my A-2-A is still a little long, and my draw weight and length are both a little low/short, which means that I need to twist the buss and control down some more, correct?

In Javi's original instruction, he states that after I have the cams synced and timed, I quote, "At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec."

If I get my bow back into spec by twisting down the buss and control cables, how much should I re-twist my string? At this point, I've pretty much removed all twists in the string as step 1.

By the way, I have a 2003 Hoyt RazorTec if that makes any difference. Thanks in advance for the help.

Shan


----------



## dwagoner

Shanwich said:


> At this point, I've pretty much removed all twists in the string as step 1.
> Shan


he says to take about 10 or so twist out of string, how did you come up with your string has no twist in it?


----------



## Shanwich

That's all the twists it had in it to begin with. There may be a few twists still in it, but not many.


----------



## bassman409

After getting your cables shortened to give your DW maybe 2 pounds over max for your limbs you should do like you highlighted and twist the string until the DL you get is matching the DL setting on your cam 1/2.


----------



## asa1485

ttt


----------



## DeepFried

Awesome thread.....


----------



## shooter74

*maxxis 35*

my BH is 7 1/4 what do i do to get it to 6 7/8 . thanks also ATA 35 1/8 any help draw will be 28 on number 2 cam and it maxes out on 59. thanks for any help.


----------



## Rwhaley17

So I have read dang near every post that would be applicable to my situation on this thread and I guess I am still a bit apprehensive on what is right (no offense to anyones knowledge, please). I have two Hoyts that I am attempting to tune ... 1. '08 737 2. '10 contender elite.... Both have the cam 1/2+ cams on them. Are there any marks that I should pay attention to on the top cam when adjusting my timing? Also, with the bottom cam where should I place the mark? Help please!


----------



## Whaack

My time for a bit of help! I have a 2009 AM32 w/ XTR cam.5

I have replace the string and cables with Fuse factory strings and I have the ATA spot on 32 3/8, I have the BH basically spot on 6 15/16, and my tiller is dead even on both top and bottom. My bow feels really hard to draw though. I don't know the exact weight yet because as I start to draw my top cam is making a "popping"noise. I have taken a picture of the spot that is making the noise, almost like the cable is slipping as I start to draw. 

The area with the arrow is the area that is popping. It is almost like as the cam is rotating the cable slips in the groove.


----------



## teknoclash

I noticed after tuning my Cam.5 Cybertec is when the mod is in D my cams and draw stops are perfect. When I change it to F the top cam will over rotate just a touch.


----------



## Jungleman

DeepFried said:


> Awesome thread.....


Indeed

Thank you!


----------



## PaLuke

Hello everyone,
I looked for this answer in the thread for quite a while but couldn't find it or just didn't understand it. I have a 2008 737 with a 29.5" draw lenght. I'm beginning to try Javi's tuning method but for the life of me can't figure where the reference holes on the cams are. Help on this would be greatly appreciated. Are there any pictures out there to show me where they are? thanks for the replies. PaLuke


----------



## lungbuster14

I need some advice guys i have an 06 lazertec my A2A is 1/8" to long, and brace height it 1/8" to long and my DL is 1/2" to long my tiller is dead on and the draw stop timing is perfect. Now there seems like theres a lot of twist in my cabels and strings (almost to the knotting up point when i take the tension off the string) should i just leave it alone and shot it the way it is or should i keep twisting away untill everything comes out perfect or atleast close to it?


----------



## bassman409

It might be time for new strings if they are the originals!


----------



## Nameless Hunter

Finally got around to putting new cables and string on my backup bow (Trykon XL). Never been this lucky before with my initial twist guess. After testing it on my drawboard I only had to add two twists to the buss cable to bring the bow in to textbook spec and tiller is spot on. Max poundage is about 73 pounds with 65% cams. Being lucky is good.


----------



## mx482

I've read the post and have some follow up questions if someone would be so kind.

This statement was made:
To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts).

Question:
Not sure what is meant by backing the string off so it doesn't affect the axle to axle. How is the string affecting axle to axle?

This statement was made:
If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out). 

Question
There were no instructions on what to do if the cams were out of sync.

Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. 
Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. 
Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.

Question
This is where I'm a little confused. If the cam is under rotated you say to put a twist in the buss (which would lengthen draw and increase draw weight)
or untwist the control (which would lengthen draw and increase draw weight).

How do you know what to do?

Thanks, has anyone ordered the DVD also posted on this site?


----------



## SonnyThomas

Question:
Not sure what is meant by backing the string off so it doesn't affect the axle to axle. How is the string affecting axle to axle?

Buss cable is the work horse, control cable syncs. Once timed/synced you and close to ata you check draw length. Here, you have to twist up the bow string. Doing this can bring in just about everything, ata, bh, draw weight and of course draw length.

Question
There were no instructions on what to do if the cams were out of sync. I perfer to time the bottom cam first. Once the bottom cam is timed you check the top cam for sync. Buss is primary for ata and control syncs cams.


Question
This is where I'm a little confused. If the cam is under rotated you say to put a twist in the buss (which would lengthen draw and increase draw weight)
or untwist the control (which would lengthen draw and increase draw weight).

How do you know what to do?

By keeping the bottom cam timed and syncing the top cam.


----------



## Nameless Hunter

mx482 said:


> I've read the post and have some follow up questions if someone would be so kind.
> 
> This statement was made:
> To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts).
> 
> Question:
> Not sure what is meant by backing the string off so it doesn't affect the axle to axle. How is the string affecting axle to axle?
> 
> This statement was made:
> If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out).
> 
> Question
> There were no instructions on what to do if the cams were out of sync.
> 
> Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow.
> Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight.
> Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.
> 
> Question
> This is where I'm a little confused. If the cam is under rotated you say to put a twist in the buss (which would lengthen draw and increase draw weight)
> or untwist the control (which would lengthen draw and increase draw weight).
> 
> How do you know what to do?
> 
> Thanks, has anyone ordered the DVD also posted on this site?


I'll start with your last question.
Per the recommended procedure, you want the A2A to be about 1/4" long with properly timed cams before you add the 10 twists back to your string. If the cams aren't proper, then you need to either twist one or untwist the other ... which cable you would twist or untwist depends on your measured draw length and A2A at this point. Is the draw length long or short? Is the A2A long or short? I have had to twist up both of them if my cams are proper but my A2A is too long ... just did this with my Katera.


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## mx482

SonnyThomas said:


> By keeping the bottom cam timed and syncing the top cam.


I was under the impression that cam timing was where you draw the bow and make sure it is hitting the draw stops where it should. Cam sync is a bow that is not drawn and the strings intersects that cams at certain locations. You seem to be using the term synonomously. Not sure what you meant by keeping the bottom cam timed and syncing the top cam.

Sorry, I'm kind a new at timing a bow.


----------



## Hydrasports205

Great thread, thanks to javi and everyone that's contributed. Really helped me understand how to tune the bow and got it set up great now.


----------



## tovli

Summary I'm using (with OmniPress and a full length mirror to check stop timing): (I picked up 6 fps.)

Tuning 2008 Hoyt Pro Elite XT3000 (Mike Cooper “Javi” Method) 

Tune Chart:
BH 8 3/4 ATA 40 1/4 DL 28 Set on D 
String: 56.75	Control: 44.25	Buss: 42 

1. Bottom Out Limbs, Set module to position “D”, Back Off String 10 turns 
2. Adjust Buss (Split Yoke) cable for ATA to be 1/4” longer than spec. (40 1/2) 
3. Adjust Control Cable to sync Cams 
( Tiller equal, ref holes same distance from respective cables) 
4. Drawing till stop just touches buss cable:
check top cam control cable fits flat in groove 
or under rotated – not in groove
or over rotated – in groove and bent by cam
5. Check Draw Weight and Draw Length (should be little long and little over spec) 
6. Adjust: 
Under rotated: twist buss or untwist control 
Over rotated: untwist buss or twist control
Choose based on DW,DL: 
Buss twist increases DL and DW 
Control twist decreases DL and DW 
7. Repeat 4 through 6 till correct 

8. Twist string to bring DL and DW to spec 
9. Double check 4 - use 1/2 twist to tweak 
10. Hybrid Cam Creep Tune: 
a. Target 1/2” thick Horizontal Line Target at 20 yards 
b. Shoot just touching stop - adjust sight exactly 
c. Shoot hard into stop 
Arrows high: control add 1/2 twist 
Arrows low: buss add 1/2 twist 
d. Repeat b-c till no change


----------



## Tanner B

i was told by someone at Hoyt, that if i go DOWN in cam size on my 737 with the cam 1/2 plus, my peak weight would go UP, is that accurate ?? it's a 60-70 w/27-29.5 cam #4, was told if i went to 26-28.5 cam #3 i would GAIN about 2lbs, if i went to 25-27.5 cam #2 i would GAIN about 6lbs.


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## dwagoner

TANNER thats very possible, limb deflection can change up and down between cam sizes, ive seen it before on many bows, its not like they go inline they can go from a 110 to 118 def with the katera xl, so any other bow may change also


----------



## BMA1974

What do you use for fuel cam timing marks/holes?


----------



## alleycatdad

OK, so I'm not real bright, but if you use the control cable/bus cable to sync the cams at rest using the reference holes, then use them again to time the draw stops, what keeps the cams synched at rest relative to the reference holes? 

When I adjust the draw stop timing, I end up with one ref hole farther from the string at rest than the other one is; seems I can either synch the cams at rest OR time the draw stops. Is this a tiller issue?

Thanks!

Steve


----------



## BlacktailBryan

Heres a question from a Hoyt newbie. I just moved my peep up on my AM32, which required me to press it and put one twist in the string to get it strait. I bottomed the limb bolts down and checked all the specs I had written down, and my A2A went from 32 5/8" to 32 1/2", also my tiller and brace reduced by 1/16". My cam mark is in the same spot, and the draw stops are hitting on time still, so can I assume everythings fine? I think Im being paranoid because Im planning on changing strings myself in a couple weeks.


----------



## JStrebin

by putting a twist in your string you have so caled scrutched the limbs down and that is why your ATA and BH are different, check your draw weight


----------



## davdeer19

javi 
i have found the best tune for most guys is to have the top cam bump just a touch early. Working with a lot guys and their hoyts i have found the most forgiving tune as far as the paper shows and bareshafting, is that having the top bump a little sooner will actually help a guy if he punches or has a form issue it also helps one to feel a harder wall if they like it


----------



## spike camp

does this method apply to the element and matrix?


----------



## Jungleman

*Timing marks*

Hey guys, thanks again for all the great info.

Just wanted to share a little trick....

Last year after reading through javi`s post over and over and then determining that my spirals were indeed out of tune I headed to the shop since I didn`t have a press and the tech there did pretty much everything word for word and got me back into spec.

The trick was, once he was done he marked the cams for me so I could easily see if anything changed in the future.

Came in handy when I started experiencing string slap on my bow arm, dancing pins, seemingly longer draw length, crappy groups/broadhead flight etc. etc. all the things that come with string/cables stretching.

I knew they were going out of time and the marks had moved for a while now but it just got to be too much to bear so after getting a press of my own I tackled some twisting to get it back into shape.

While I was going through the posts again I saw a lot of questions about what to go by as far as timing marks at rest/brace/bow not drawn.

Once you get them where you want them and it`s shooting lights out get yourself a paint pen or sharpie (paint pen`s easier to see on black cams :teeth and mark `em!

One mark on the FINISHED cam on each side of the limb will give you instant visual as to the timing.


----------



## Jungleman

Btw thanks for all your help Mike!


----------



## jshepp

does anyone know how to get copy of dvd on bow tuning put together by hoyt thompson


----------



## conggek

Javi & Steve

Just wondering and asking advise, could your tunning method apply to all bow? I have a fix DL cam which I need to tune.


----------



## mx482

jshepp said:


> does anyone know how to get copy of dvd on bow tuning put together by hoyt thompson


I sure would like to know too. Have emailed Hoyt Thompson but he no longer accepts pms. All of the links to find this item no longer work 

Hopefully someone will come forth.


----------



## jlnel

to much to read tonight.. just needed to bookmark for later!!


----------



## ToddM

Here's a question on this cam 1/2 setup.

I went through the steps, and they all went pretty smooth, when set to max poundage and the C position all factory specs, DW, DL, BH were very close before I went back to my DL/DW. Tiller is still even (within 1mm), cam marks at rest are very close, on a draw board the bottom cam stop hits just as the top cam trough lays solid into the cable, at least as close as I can see by eye. 

The bow tuned fine using a modified bare shaft and french tuning, and seems to group/shoot well.

One thing I've noticed though is the bow has significant hand shock, and it's very obvious shooting the bow that it has a lot of bottom limb "kick"


----------



## huntnutsbro

can anyone tell me what the reference marks or holes are in the slam and 1/2 cams on the redhead xp 35 bow? im having issues with arrow flight, and im ready to tackle javi's method, but i dont have a manual for this bow, and i dont see any marks. and the holes on the cams dont seem to be in the same spot, or its way outta whack! lol pics of this would help me greatly. thanks


----------



## Koorsboom

I found the original post about tuning the cams on another forum and eventually traced this post on here ...

I have not had time to read through all the posts on this thread so pardon me if it has been addressed already, but here it is ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I mainly have two questions ...

So I cannot untwist the string on parallel limb bows for this type of tuning? How then do I apply this method to parallel and post-parallel limb bows.

The K&K, and others like the new Bow Techs and Elites have a cable stop on both limbs that contact the cables insted of the top cable stopping against a groove in the cam. How would one apply your tuning method on bows with such cam configuration?

Thanks for the very valuable info ...


----------



## Koorsboom

A few more comments from my side ...

Hoyt Thomson and Javi ... I read on here and on another forum that both of you talked about videos to be made and that got me very excited. It is now quite a few years down the line from these posts and I want to find out if the videos ever saw the light of day and if they did, how do I go about to order (I see I cannot PM either of you two so there is no way to ask this in person). I hope that your ideas saw the light of day in the end ...

Then, to all other super tuners on here, can we please have similar posts or references to existing posts for tuning all the other cam types. I am in a part of South Africa where I have to help a lot of school kids to tune their bows as the local shop does not have extensive experience with all brands and I am trying to learn as much as possible in order to help these guys ... the more I read at the moment the more I realise how little I in fact know :wink:

Thanks for all the contributions to make all of us better archers ...


----------



## Koorsboom

> does anyone know how to get copy of dvd on bow tuning put together by hoyt thompson


Did you ever get a reply ... through a PM maybe?


----------



## gindrinkinmcgin

Excellent. Helped synchronize my Hoyt.


----------



## laurd

Hi guys,
First of all, this is one excellent and useful topic. Thank you Javi!
I was tuning by old Hoyt Proelite like described, but I still have some small difference in the distacen between the strings and the reference holes with the bow in relaxed position. In full draw position, both cams look syncronised and the tilled is even. See some pics. What do you suggest in my case?


----------



## drooster

two questions:
1. if I wanted to eliminate a vertical tear, and I had already adjusted knock point, arrow spine and eliminated fletching contact as a possible source of the problem, how could I eliminate this vertical tear by twisting or untwisting either the control or bus cable? I know that with a 2 cam bow tightening or loosening one of the bus cables can make a wopping difference in the vertical paper tear. I am working on a few cam and 1/2s right now and I am not too familiar with the tuing of these bows. I have worked on one cams and two cams for years, but not much on the cam 1/2s.
2. what is the difference between timing and synch? I once knew but have forgotten. I am pretty sure that timing refers to the strings hitting the stops at the same time at full draw. so then what is synch?


----------



## BMH95

Question on tiller - I've got everything dead on, except for tiller. My lower tiller is a hair shorter than my top tiller. I've brought it up from a 1/4", but can't seem to get it dead on. Advice?


----------



## blazer36

good stuff


----------



## bioradchad

Crazy question...can anyone post pics of the reference holes on the cams...I have the Maxxis 35. Or if someone could describe he hole placement,that would be great...sorry for my ignorance, LOL!


----------



## SSM

Thanks for the info will try this soon
Are the holes on the Hoyt GTX cam intended for this timing?

THX
KB


----------



## JAVI

*An important note on Hybrid Cam Tuning...*

*DO NOT*, I repeat *DO NOT* back the string off 10 twists on the parallel and past parallel bows to begin the tuning process.... This procedure was written for the more conventional bow of the time..


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Javi, can we look forward to a newer "write-up" on tuning the parallel and past parallel limb bows from you, please.


----------



## apt2106

May I ask why Javi? So just measure the string to length and thats it?


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Did you actually read the thread and Javis contributions?


----------



## ToddM

Perhaps it's time that this sticky was gone through and condensed, not many people are going to read 19 pages of posts, to find the 2-3 additional tidbits of info among the masses of uninformative posts and it seems like for the most part the new info in the thread has died out.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

The only problem with that, is that there are other posts and posters that state something useful in their experiences too. JAVI was not here for a while and some other knowledgeable fella's had some good input.


----------



## ToddM

Oh i agree there's some great info in there, but even keeping that info or condensing it could probably cut the whole thread to a couple pages.


----------



## apt2106

Alpha Burnt said:


> Did you actually read the thread and Javis contributions?


I skimmed through the 20 pages......maybe I missed it. Sorry. Do you know the answer? If so, wouldn't it have been easier to respond with the answer?


----------



## JAVI

apt2106 said:


> I skimmed through the 20 pages......maybe I missed it. Sorry. Do you know the answer? If so, wouldn't it have been easier to respond with the answer?


The answer is that parallel and past parallel limbed bows do not change axle to axle measurements to the same degree as the older more straight limbed bows... So to back the string out and then bring in the last 1/4" of A2A as a means of properly loading the string is not possible.. you will have to use "FEEL" to make sure that the string isn't too loose or too tight and affecting performance and draw length because of cam rotation.. 

I don't usually visit this site but occasionally someone will contact me and ask me to drop in to view a thread..


----------



## mx482

jshepp said:


> does anyone know how to get copy of dvd on bow tuning put together by hoyt thompson


Does this dvd exist or is it a fable?


----------



## matt60

ok Javi I have a CRX32 with #3 fuel cams and was wondering where the reference marks or holes are for cam synchronization


----------



## dwagoner

matt60 said:


> ok Javi I have a CRX32 with #3 fuel cams and was wondering where the reference marks or holes are for cam synchronization


there arent reference holes with newer cams, have to measure DL and when you have bow in spec measure poundage and DL and when you get both those right your good to go.


----------



## SonnyThomas

dwagoner said:


> there arent reference holes with newer cams, have to measure DL and when you have bow in spec measure poundage and DL and when you get both those right your good to go.


Hi, Dennis. Long time. I haven't worked on any of the newer Hoyts, but one not to old came in and the reference marks were on the cams to straddle the limbs. But DW is correct. Get the bow to specs and then draw stop time. Last few I re-strung and set up some older Hoyts and Reflexes the owners were amazed at how much better was; feel, noise and more consistent of accuracy.


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## skully1200

I read this whole thread. All 7 years of it. A few questions that I never saw a clear answer to. If you use the buss and control cables to set an even tiller and then use these same cables to adjust draw stop timing, won't you undo what you just did to get the tiller right? Also, which cable(s) specifically need to be twisted to address certain situations, such as top cam under rotated. What specific effect do these twists have on draw length and poundage. I read every page of this and it seems like there are some conflicting statements. If anyone can give me specific cause and effect type information I would appreciate it. Hope someone knowledgeable is still reading this thread. Thanks.


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## marl59

Hello fellow Archery Talkers,
Just switched from Bowtech 101st to the Hoyt Carbon Matrix with the RKT Cams. I cant get it to shoot as well as my 101st. I timed the Binary cams in perfect sync with a Limbdriver rest. I'm usint the new Limbdriver Pro V on the Hoyt. Now I have a whole new set of things to learn with Hoyt's system but I wont give up until this thing is shooting as well as my last bow. Some questions: Where can I find the Hoyt tuning specs that Javi mentions in his post at the top of this thread? My draw stops are not contacting the buss cable at the same time. Where should I check the tiller on this bow. I checked it from the quiver mounting posts to the string and they are about 3/32" different. Is this the correct way to check it? I sure want the cams and the draw stops in perfect time, anybody that can help me with some advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## igorts

Sent you a PM.


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## mx482

Hopefully this is large enough to see. I created this chart and use it to time my Ultratec and now Vector. The only difference is that the Vector has a draw stop on top cam.

I've been very successful using this.


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## Alpha Burnt

^great tool. thx


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## blazer36

good stuff


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## Skeeter 58

Subscribed.


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## Windrover

I'm really struggling with this. My Alpha Max is good on synch, timing and ATA. The draw length is significantly long. Every thing try to shorten draw length such as twisting control or untwisting buss shortens draw but throws timing off. I can't reasonably shorten the string any more. I got to be missing something?


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## dwagoner

Windrover said:


> I'm really struggling with this. My Alpha Max is good on synch, timing and ATA. The draw length is significantly long. Every thing try to shorten draw length such as twisting control or untwisting buss shortens draw but throws timing off. I can't reasonably shorten the string any more. I got to be missing something?


how much is "significantly" long??? and hard to tell with XTR cams like on the AM to know that timing is good, if timing were good then DL would be pretty close too. To shorten DL you need to remove from buss AND control to keep cams synced and shorten DL.


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## arctic hunter

Good information here.


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## rdhj

I have the C2 cams on my 2008 pro elite and there are only timing lines that the limb should be in-between on the bottom cam.....do I only worry about getting the bottom cam to line up according to the line and assume the top cam follows by itself with the same change since it is a slave cam? then just look for draw stop timing at the top after getting the longer ATA and the marks right (correct position) and adjust accordingly cables acccordingly? will adjusting the top cam to have the cable lay flat then affect the positioning of the bottom cam?


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## warrenc1

Okay I realize I may be overlapping information and I'm sorry but I lost motivation after reading the first ten pages. I am switching back to Hoyt after several years and just ordered the 2013 Carbon Matrix G3 and was wondering if this post is still relevant to the new cam system. I have not used this draw-stop-timing method since I had my Xtec several, several years ago. Is this system still working for the new cam system? I realize that its still Cam & 1/2 but I didn't know if things have changed.

Thanks,

Clay


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## Notvaporlocked

Marking this thread for reference


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## Taperunner4

WVbowsmith said:


> we should all read this one from time to time......an absolutely awesome post by Javi. Perhaps this is the best single post ever on AT.
> 
> J


Agreed!


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## brandonlw

saving


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## ArrowStar1

Subscribed


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## KYOWA

What is c and d slot ? I don't see anything about that on there chart or don't no what I looking for .


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## Tracker12

In the older cams you will see markings on the side that usually go from A-D. Depending on where they are set will determine the DL setting of the bow.


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## tkraska5893

Javi, can you please give tips on tuning a hoyt ruckus for my son?


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## tannercutiger

suscribed


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## padeadeye

subscribed


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## bigmo101

Subscribe


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## nate0404

subscribe


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## BoHunter0210

Marked for later


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## evox

marking this


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## Ron213

Wow, 9 years old and still being read...... Great thread!!


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## mike 1215

i find on nmy spyder turbo the harder i pull the better in shoots and if i am doing it right i hit lower so what doi neeed to do to corect his on the timing


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## hrtlnd164

mike 1215 said:


> i find on nmy spyder turbo the harder i pull the better in shoots and if i am doing it right i hit lower so what doi neeed to do to corect his on the timing


If your shots land low while pulling hard into the wall, add a 1/2 twist to the buss cable.


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## 3SixtyOutdoors

Tag


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## Cajun83

Been looking for a tuning guide that relates to my Carbon Spyder and bam, it's been here all along. Great info in this thread.


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## steve101610

Tagged


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## blackduck889

tagged


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## macnimation

I have just tuned my newly arrived Hoyt Podium X. Both Cams hit the draw stps exactly on time and the wall is solid. My Pro comp elite is set up the same.

I paper tuned the bow today and adjusted the rest and nocking point slightly until I got bullet holes.

With bullet holes in paper, I have noticed that the nocking point is about 1/8 inch below the Berger button hole, which the arrow shaft is perfectly dissecting.

I am wondering if taking a half twist out of the control cable might give me a low tear so that I can raise the nocking point? 
I think something is amiss that the bow is shooting bullet holes and the nocking point is low?


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## TRUE HUNT

Tagging this for my 2015 CST ZT TURBO CAM. 
Thanks to all for input.


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## igorgoga

Can someone pls explain this paragraph from above written by Javi:
To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out).


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## itsashooter

Going to mark this for later reference


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## itsashooter

Marked for later use.


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## w57q45

Trying to fix the timing /sync on my Hoyt charger, draw stops I can get to hit same time easy enough to but I'm not sure how the holes are meant to light up. Which hole lines with with what string and when in the draw circle will they line up. The guide says they should be equidistant but equal how? And equal to what


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## nuts&bolts

w57q45 said:


> Trying to fix the timing /sync on my Hoyt charger, draw stops I can get to hit same time easy enough to but I'm not sure how the holes are meant to light up. Which hole lines with with what string and when in the draw circle will they line up. The guide says they should be equidistant but equal how? And equal to what


Try a different approach. BUSS cable (this is the cable with yoke legs). Adjust the length (add or remove twists) at the bottom of the buss cable, until YOU are happy with the draw weight. Fine. If you are ok with the draw weight, now we work on CAM sync. But, we IGNORE measurements. We ignore holes lining up. We go and shoot arrows. We look at your RESULTS, to adjust cam sync. SHOOT a fletched arrow at 20 yards, and shoot a bareshaft arrow (with no tape at the back end). CAM sync is designed to SHRINK high-low misses. So, we want the BARESHAFT arrow and the FLETCHED arrow, to have the exact same height, when you fire the fletched and bareshaft arrow. Should look like THIS, when you have the CAM sync, adjusted to fit YOU perfectly.



20 yards. Run a level strip of masking tape through the x-ring on your target. FIRE a bareshaft. FIRE a fletched arrow. ADJUST the control cable, and aDD more and more half twists, or REMOVE more and more half twists, until you get this result.









BAM. Done. The pointy end of the bareshaft and the pointy end of the fletched arrow are both hitting the top edge of the masking tape, 20 yards away.



BUT BUT BUT, I don't believe in bareshafts. NEVER shot a bareshaft. NEVER will. Fine. Play with the control cable, and ADD more and more half twists, or REMOVE more and more half twists (top end loop of the control cable) until you get the TIGHTEST groups ever, with your FLETCHED arrows. When your HIGH-LOW miss pattern is smaller than ever in your life, you are done.



Arrows have high-low misses. Work your control cable, and tweak in half twists.



MUCH better. BUT BUT BUT, what hole lined up with WHAT string? NO idea. Don't care. Work the control cable, the "CABLE" that has two end loops. NOT the Y shaped cable. The other cable, that looks like a rope. The "String" has a d-loop and a peep sight inside. So, work the ROPE looking thing, that has no d-loop on it.


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## nuts&bolts

w57q45 said:


> Trying to fix the timing /sync on my Hoyt charger, draw stops I can get to hit same time easy enough to but I'm not sure how the holes are meant to light up. Which hole lines with with what string and when in the draw circle will they line up. The guide says they should be equidistant but equal how? And equal to what


You don't want the draw stops to hit at the same time. YOu want the DRAW stops to have the TOP draw stop hit FIRST, and you want a small gap on the bottom DRAW stop. LIKE this, at full draw.



THIS is full draw in a draw board. Boat winch at one end of the backbone. PIPE at the front end of the backbone. THIS is the top draw stop, at full draw.



THIS is the bottom draw stop, with a small gap, when the top draw stop hits the cable FIRST.



MOST humans get the BEST results, tightest groups, when you setup the control cable twists, to get the TOP stop to hit the cable FIRST, and you have a small gap between the BOTTOM stop and the cable.


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## tylerbenelli

great post!


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## tylerbenelli

tagging to come back later


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## BrokenLimbs

I'm wondering why Hoyt does not place timing marks or indicators on the cams. My Chill-R has them. And it's a great visual reference to know things are pretty darn close.


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## eskimoohunt

subscribe


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## hoytrulez

Cool.


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## Scottso

Tag


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## Buckdundee

Tag

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## kaibabguy

Tagged

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## doublelung76

Tag


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## Dewboy

tag


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## jonbutcher05

Thanks!


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## riche

can anyone explain how to build up the back wall? my hyper says a let off of 75% but it isn't a solid back wall.


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## vmals

How can you tell if the cams are in sync on the zt cams if there are no reference marks?


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## nuts&bolts

vmals said:


> How can you tell if the cams are in sync on the zt cams if there are no reference marks?


You don't need timing holes, you don't need reference marks on the cams. You tune a bow based on results. When the cam sync is no good, you get this result. 20 yards. Shoulder high target, aim at the top edge of the masking tape.



So, what do you do now? PICK one cable, and only adjust twists in that ONE cable. But, how many twists? Half a twist, when you goto the bow press. BUT, how do I know if I add or remove a half twist? Pick a direction and shoot again.



But, how do I know what direction to go? Do I untwist or add twist? Keep going until you see results get better or worse. If results get worse, go the other direction.


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## Jrbreeland

What if the stops are way off? My top cam is almost an inch behind the bottom. Here’s a pic of the starting positions. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wilkinsonk

Jrbreeland said:


> What if the stops are way off? My top cam is almost an inch behind the bottom.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Almost an inch off at draw or at brace? Those cams are not symmetrical, so at brace they will not look the same.

While the bow is at brace you can depress either the cable and you will see how shortening it will effect the cams position.


Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk


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## Jrbreeland

wilkinsonk said:


> Almost an inch off at draw or at brace? Those cams are not symmetrical, so at brace they will not look the same.
> 
> While the bow is at brace you can depress either the cable and you will see how shortening it will effect the cams position.
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk


Inch off at draw. I tried to take a picture but it almost ended in disaster. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vmals

Thanks for that explanation I will try this method. Reason I ask is because Im shooting bullet holes but the back wall isn't solid, albiet it is an rx1 turbo and the first turbo I've owned. I've adjusted the draw stop timing a bit and feel more comfortable shooting it. 

Waiting in serving jig and serving to come in as the center serving is already toast after only about 100 arrows so Im held up on the tuning. Another thing to mention is I do have some top cam lean at full draw in order to shoot bare shaft bullet holes. Would like to know if that is caused by something else that I can adjust.


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## Paul Gonzales

tagged


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## blbhunt2

Tagged

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts

vmals said:


> Thanks for that explanation I will try this method. Reason I ask is because Im shooting bullet holes but the back wall isn't solid, albiet it is an rx1 turbo and the first turbo I've owned. I've adjusted the draw stop timing a bit and feel more comfortable shooting it.
> 
> Waiting in serving jig and serving to come in as the center serving is already toast after only about 100 arrows so Im held up on the tuning. Another thing to mention is I do have some top cam lean at full draw in order to shoot bare shaft bullet holes. Would like to know if that is caused by something else that I can adjust.


Amount of top cam lean and sideways arrow rest position go together. If you are a shooter who believes the arrow rest sideways position must be set in stone, then, you have to be willing to tune the yoke legs to get whatever cam lean up on top, gives you the bareshaft bullet hole. You COULD tweak draw length with cable twists, to get that same bullet hole thru paper, and zero cam lean at full draw, but most shooter are too skeered to mess with draw length between module sizes. So, you can go the other way. Tweak yoke legs for zero cam lean at full draw, and then, move the arrow rest sideways, until you get that bareshaft paper tuner bullet hole.


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## KDekle

Thanks


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## Boaringbruno

Thanks!


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## Kodakkid

Good information


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## bayangler

Tagged


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## FiveSD

Love this thread. Scratching head on hyperforce. #3 cam 60lb 29.5” DL

timing on, a2a on, BH on, DL on, DW on, tiller? Where to measure? Rest and nock 90 middle of hole. 1.25” Tail high tear bare shaft in paper at 12’. Same tear with 300 and 400 spine arrows. AAE pro drop rest. Can get bullet hole if nock low by 1/4” or bottom cam first by 1/4”. Neither seems/feels right. No nock pinch. Moved speed nocks to match (was off by 1/8” from string maker)

pulling hair out trying to get it figured out.
Thanks everyone!


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## FiveSD

So after resetting string length, reading the Kitchen Sink guide again, and staring at the cams for about 45 min, I realized that I was neglecting adjusting the buss cable for cam timing. I say timing, because by twisting the yoke legs, I was able to change to rotation of the bottom cam to time (think clock) and use the control cable to sync. The cams were in sync, but rotation staring position was off. I hesitated because I was worried I would change the A2A if I adjusted the yoke legs, so I hadn’t though to “time” the cam with the buss cable

final specs are
A2A 31 7/8” (32 spec)
DL measured at 29”
DW measured at 62.4
BH meandered at 6”
rest center shot at 13/16”
Arrow level through hole
Nock Point 90 to string

Cams at rest show nearly same orientation (no timing marks or references on hyper ZT) as seen above and below each limb.

Feel free to PM me for questions or help.


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## E_L33T Arch3r

FiveSD said:


> So after resetting string length, reading the Kitchen Sink guide again, and staring at the cams for about 45 min, I realized that I was neglecting adjusting the buss cable for cam timing. I say timing, because by twisting the yoke legs, I was able to change to rotation of the bottom cam to time (think clock) and use the control cable to sync. The cams were in sync, but rotation staring position was off. I hesitated because I was worried I would change the A2A if I adjusted the yoke legs, so I hadn’t though to “time” the cam with the buss cable
> 
> final specs are
> A2A 31 7/8” (32 spec)
> DL measured at 29”
> DW measured at 62.4
> BH meandered at 6”
> rest center shot at 13/16”
> Arrow level through hole
> Nock Point 90 to string
> 
> Cams at rest show nearly same orientation (no timing marks or references on hyper ZT) as seen above and below each limb.
> 
> Feel free to PM me for questions or help.


What was the tear result?


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## FiveSD

Bullet holes!!! At 3-15 feet. Victory rip xv 300 27” with 106grain point weight.


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## E_L33T Arch3r

FiveSD said:


> Bullet holes!!! At 3-15 feet. Victory rip xv 300 27” with 106grain point weight.


You are saying the problem was you timed your cams at full draw with the buss cable but didn’t sync them at rest? So you let out the buss to sync them at rest and timed with the control cable?


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## FiveSD

To clarify, sync is draw stops hitting at the same time.
Timing is that the starting rotation is the same.

I was only using the control cable to sync at full draw.

The fix was, I twisted up the buss cable (yoke legs) to time the cams at rest. Then made sure the sync was on at full draw with the control cable.


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## [email protected]

Great post


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## 9bullets

FiveSD said:


> To clarify, sync is draw stops hitting at the same time.
> Timing is that the starting rotation is the same.
> 
> I was only using the control cable to sync at full draw.
> 
> The fix was, I twisted up the buss cable (yoke legs) to time the cams at rest. Then made sure the sync was on at full draw with the control cable.


Thanks for putting this out here. I was only looking at cam sync on my Hyperforce. My bottom cam is hitting the stop just slightly before the top and I have heard it should be the opposite. I guess I need to lengthen my control cable, then recheck both sync and timing and make adjustments from there?


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## FiveSD

9bullets said:


> Thanks for putting this out here. I was only looking at cam sync on my Hyperforce. My bottom cam is hitting the stop just slightly before the top and I have heard it should be the opposite. I guess I need to lengthen my control cable, then recheck both sync and timing and make adjustments from there?


Couple of things. If you are able to get both cams hitting at the same time that’s great. Slightly 1/16-1/8” ahead on top cam is the norm from all my research. This is sync.

Timing by my definition is that the cams start out rotating at the correct place. A bit like timing the hands of a clock. If you set the hands to start at 12:07, the clock will still rotate around in 12 hours but it will be off of the proper starting place... this is timing

I found working to keep specs close for A2A, BH, DW, and DL, and having the cams close to the same rotational position at rest, helps the timing at full draw to be closer to even or top ahead a bit.

You want level knock travel. If you press the bow slightly, then rotate the cams at the same time by hand, you will see the nock point move up or down depending on which way... not sure where each bow is level... but it is an interesting thing to watch.

Adjust for vertical tears first, then a twist or so one a side of the yoke or the other to get left or right fixed.

So you could let out a twist on the control, or put in a couple on the yoke legs (watch twist direction). Shoot a couple times and recheck.

that was a long answer... sorry ya’ll.


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## FiveSD

Wanted to put another plug in on this hyperforce. I put new limbs on, and had a high tear again. Reset all specs, still high. Conceded to having bottom cam stop hit before top to shoot bullet holes... 

Looked at D-loop as it was fraying from a snag in my scale hook, and thought I’d just replace it. Noticed gap around nock was not very loose... so new loop, exact measurements to top knot, but made bottom knot about 1/16” wider. Thought this seems like too much gap... but shot it, nock LOW! What!?!? Adjusted control cable to even draw stops touching, and adjusted rest to ensure 90deg through berger... Perfect, best, totally dead on BULLET HOLE. I thought I didn’t have nock pinch before, but I guess it was still causing an issue. 

So if you have a hyperforce with a high tear, try resetting everything to spec, and making a wide nock set or loop. Worked for me, just like I knew what I was doing all along. Isn’t this archery stuff fun?


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## FiveSD

One more plug on this for future readers/tuners. Less of a tuning issue and more of a form issue presenting as a tuning issue... 

After getting the hyperforce dialed in, I evaluated my form, thanks to a guru around this forum I found I was doing a few things wrong though not obvious. Ok ok tuning. Sorry. 

My draw arm shoulder (delt and trap) were getting tired while shooting, So I focused on transferring holding weight to my lat by dropping my draw/release elbow by about 1.5”... shot paper just to see, and had a nock low tear!!! What!?! 

Searched around here and looked at my d-loop... looked sorta like this 7 not like this > ... so I tried it a few more times and found that I needed to tweak my setup ever so slightly and was back to perfect bullet hole bare shafts with a lower (better) elbow and release arm and form. 

It’s like I’ve never archeyed before this bow... despite setting up, selling, and tuning bows for years. Guess an old dog can still learn new tricks. I chalk it up to short stiff arrows not being very forgiving through paper. Happy shooting!


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## Hgore_22

JAVI said:


> *To make it easier to follow I am*
> 
> posting the other information in the thread as well... Hope this helps...
> 
> Hybrid Cam Sync & Timing
> By Mike Javi.... Cooper​
> 
> 
> The timing system on the hybrid cams is somewhat different from other systems.
> 
> The cams need to be in synchronization and in draw stop timing; these are two entirely different issues but interconnected. It is possible to have the cams in sync, but not in time and visa versa.
> 
> The string is for all practical purposes, just along for the ride, the buss cable (yoke) controls the bow, and it is used to set the axle to axle (limb) preload and takes most of the weight of the limb deflection at full draw. The control cable (slave) ties the two cams together so that they rotate at the required speeds.
> 
> The reference marks or holes (depending on the cam) are there to provide a visual reference to cam synchronization not draw stop timing. I find that tiller is a more precise indicator of cam sync; if the limbs are bottomed out the tiller will reflect the position of the cams better than the reference holes (marks).
> 
> To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out).
> 
> Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.
> 
> At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec.
> 
> I double check everything and tweak a half twist here or there to fine tune it.
> 
> Finally I use the hybrid cam creep tuning method to set the bow to my shooting style.
> 
> If you follow this method you will have a very solid wall and the bow will be practically vibration free.
> 
> A note: the regular cam & ½ should be tuned in the “D” draw length slot for best performance. You can then set the module to your required DL and tweak the DL using the string.


👍🏼


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## jcs-bowhunter

Would the process described on posts #2 & #12 apply to a 2018 Hoyt Double XL with Hyper ZX Cams? I scanned through the 33 pages of this and did not find anything to say it would not. But given this is an older thread I wanted to make sure. Any advice would be appreciated as I have new string/cables/yokes on order and am tackling this by myself for the first time.


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