# Gap: The Compromise



## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

Vid isn't working for me. It takes me to a creation page.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

fixed


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Thanks Jimmy!


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

Very informative. Thank you for posting this.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

I tried gap & just could not get used to aiming lower , I am using gap/instinctive now, seems to somewhat work better than when I tried gap


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is ridiculous - to claim that the same sight picture can be used for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - even with an arrow going 210 fps - if you shoot the exact same sight picture - for a 10 yard shot and then shot at 40 yards - the arrow would drop 50.2 inches!

Just use this archery ballistics calculator and you can figure it out: http://www.outdoorsden.com/archery/archbal.asp

This proves that while Jimmy THINKS he is using the exact same sight picture for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - he is not - if he was he would shoot over 50 inches low on the 40 yard shot - he is subconsciously making adjustments to the sight picture - HE HAS TO BE - and he does not even realise it.

He is making adjustments to the sight picture for these different distances and does not even know it - if he was not - ballistics prove that he would be over 50 inches low - not 4 inches!

I am going to prove this when I make my video on instinctive shooting - I am going to take my bow and put it in a hooter shooter machine and get the arrows shooting dead on at 10 yards and then shoot at a 30 yard target - this will demonstrate CLEARLY that this is bunk.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

The only thing I can see in the video that makes sense is that.......

Yes, indeed.......a faster arrow has a flatter trajectory. That's good and makes aiming easier.

But......isn't that old news?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Go ask a guy shooting a 300 fps compound if they can use the same sight for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - and then ask yourself how it would be possible to use the same gap with an arrow going 100 fps slower than that 300fps arrow.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

My bow shoots the same gap from 0 to 27 yards, but not to 40 yards.
Don.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Ah, the "instinctive" and "unconscious" shooters.

They do provide amusement.

Go ahead......tell us about that voodoo that you do so well. When you regain consciousness.

:wink:


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Anybody that knows anything about gaps knows Jimmy is right. It rises and comes back down crosses the arch. So your gap at 10 and 30 or 40 can be the same depending on your point on. But there is always the person who has to be right. O and we don't want anymore of your videos sb.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I tryed to watch the vedio, it says that it is private.
Don.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

zestycj7 said:


> My bow shoots the same gap from 0 to 27 yards, but not to 40 yards.
> Don.


Don, You are killing the credibility of California archers. Now go and have a drink with Gary and talk this one out, Please.:grouphug:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> fixed


for you maybe... :grin: Says its private... so yer keepin the good stuff to yerself again... :grin:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Don,
Mine isn't 0-40 either. I worded / explained it poorly but you understand what I was saying. The arrow climbs in the arch and then flattens out. The faster the arrow the longer it stays flat and throughout that portion of the flight the gap is the same, give or take an inch. My point on it 40 with that bow so clearly there is no gap at 40. Why are the pins closer together on a faster bow? Why can you use fewer pins on a faster bow? It shoots flatter. That is all I'm saying and I'm explaining how that affects your gap. Anyway, I took it down because clearly I failed to explain it effectively.


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

Has the video been taken down or access removed. It says that it is "Private.".?


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Video has now been made private. Trajectory is a closely guarded secret, I guess.

I want to watch Sharp's video......but I would be astounded if it PROVED any more than the OPs video.

These things are all about perception and opinion and physical differences in form, eyesight and brain function.

:amen:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

If your point on is 40 yards then your gaps will be just about this.

40 yards p.o.
30 yards - 10"
20 yards - 20"
10 yards - 10"

If you don't believe it then go to your bale and put a dot on your target. Put the point of your arrow on it and shoot it at 10, 20, 30, and 40 yards. Measure the inches that the arrow impacts above the dot and tell me I'm wrong. It's simple so go out and do it.

Now the faster the arrow the longer it will stay flat and thus the farther your point on distance.


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

It made sense to me. He didn't state he was hitting the same spot, but actually a 4" window so theoretically he could use the same gap and score/kill in an effective area. 

Pretty cut/dry.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Don, You are killing the credibility of California archers. Now go and have a drink with Gary and talk this one out, Please.:grouphug:


LOL...Ben, you crack me up.
Gary and Sandy are out the range, I am home just 15 min. up the road. 
I did leave one of my right hand Shadowcats with Gary today to play around with, he pulled it and said he liked it.
He said he would put it through it's paces but I had to leave for home before he did any shooting with it though.
Don.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jimmy, anyone who understand the arc of an arrow understands we are "riding the curve" and how that works in to your explanation. Thanks.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Don,
> Mine isn't 0-40 either. I worded / explained it poorly but you understand what I was saying. The arrow climbs in the arch and then flattens out. The faster the arrow the longer it stays flat and throughout that portion of the flight the gap is the same, give or take an inch. My point on it 40 with that bow so clearly there is no gap at 40. Why are the pins closer together on a faster bow? Why can you use fewer pins on a faster bow? It shoots flatter. That is all I'm saying and I'm explaining how that affects your gap. Anyway, I took it down because clearly I failed to explain it effectively.


Jimmy,
Yes I know exactly what you are talking about. I cover the spot at 45 yards and my gap is just at about 1/8" per every 5 yards past that.
Don.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

I encourage everyone to join the revolution and place sharpbh on your ignore list.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)




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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

put a sight on that bow and see how you ride the arc of that arrow when you use the 10 yards sight to shoot at a 40 yard target!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp you shoot instinctive how could you possibly no what we are talking about you don't see your arrow remember or do you hmmm


sharpbroadhead said:


> put a sight on that bow and see how you ride the arc of that arrow when you use the 10 yards sight to shoot at a 40 yard target!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

gary - because I know what the ballistics are - go to the link I provided and plug it in - because I shoot with compound shooters 90% of the time and I know that they, even with 300 fps bows could not use the same sight (sight picture) for a 10 yard shot as a 40 yard shot!

You guys are making the case that everyone aims at a subconscious level and do not even realize it - if you think you are shooting the same sight picture for a 10 yards shot as you do for a 40 yard shot - you are dreaming - there would be over a 50 inch drop if you did


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

like I said - put a sight on your bow and "ride the arc" by using a 10 yard sight for a 40 yard shot - see how well that arc riding works for ya


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Didn't take long for that one to blow up - thanks for the vid I both got a chance to see it and understood your point. 

Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

mannnnn?.....this is freaking hilarious! :laugh:

PS: Ken?...Jimmy is correct...has to do with using the point as a sight pin and the triagulation that goes on between your anchor point, your eye and the tip of the arrow..even when i gap off my longbow riser i hafta hold lower at 10 than i do at 20...it's exactly like the same deal that goes on with a rifle scope when you have extra high mount or "see through" scope rings or better yet?..like if ya mounted a scope on top of one of the old style AR15 handles..if ya aim dead on at closer distances you'll hit low because the angle of trajectory hasn't reached the line-of-sight yet...Rod Jenkins explained the same gap trajectory theories to us at his clinic..and it is a fact..for gappers.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

I use the same pin on my compound from 20 to 80 yards :amen:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jkcerda said:


> I tried gap & just could not get used to aiming lower , I am using gap/instinctive now, seems to somewhat work better than when I tried gap


How did you get to see the video?


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

he is completely ignorant of what the arrow is doing


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

It is going in a straight line like a bullet right?? oh ooops thats right - bullets don't go in a straight line either.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Nice video jimmy sorry you took it down good info like you post is hard to come by for the new shooters. Its a shame some of us don't want to learn. I thought about posting a video about gapping at the arrow like I do but it a lot harded for some to understand. After watching your video and seeing how plain it is and then get beat up. I'm not even going to try. Thank you again for all the great information you post.
Gary


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

If he was a pilot you could ground him


Jimmy Blackmon said:


> he is completely ignorant of what the arrow is doing


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Gary

He only got yapped at by one guy make your vid I'd love to see it - good luck tomorrow Olivia and I have a big bet riding on it. 

Matt


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> How did you get to see the video?


I am special :amen: mom said so & so does the bus driver in that short little bus :amen:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Jimmy just likes us better


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

I just wish I could see the video


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

uabdave said:


> I just wish I could see the video


:kiss:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> he is completely ignorant of what the arrow is doing


true...but his subconscious knows what the arrow is doing..cause he just proved to the www that he does in fact.."shoot instinctively". :laugh:


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Too bad the vid isn't up. I was working on putting together a vid about simple aiming techniques but my camera crapped out. Jimmy always does an excellent job of explaining techniques.

Ken, you're not seeing the picture clearly. It's obvious you don't have a true understanding of aiming with the arrow because if you did you'd know what is being talked about. You're talking about using a 10 yard pin to shoot at 40 yards. That's pretty simple to see there is going to be a large amount of drop. Gapping is more similar to is using a pin set for a longer distance, say a 40 yards, and using it for all distances below that. Much of the drop is being compensated for because the actual arc of the arrow and how it interacts with your line of sight. Ask a good compound shooter to try using their 40 yard pin at a super close distance. Start at 1 or 2 yards and have them shoot the 40 pin at a block. Back up a yard at a time until the forty pin hits the bullseye. It should happen within the first 10 yards. Now, if you continue to have them shoot the 40 pin past this point until they reach 40 yards you'll see the arrows will impact high, reach a peak point (probably around 20-25 yards), begin to work there way back down until they finally impact the bullseye. That's gap shooting in a nutshell. Your arrow is a rough sight pin that you set for a specific distance. Gapping isn't having a point on at 10 yards and shooting the same exact hold for the next 30 yards. It's having a 25 or 30 or whatever rough sight on your bow and simply compensating for the amount it hits over or under at a given distance. 

Typing this out is far more complicated than it is to actually try it out. Heck, you could even do it yourself. Draw back at very close distances, subconciously place the tip on the bullseye and shoot. Just keep working back until you find your point on. See how the arrows impact and you'll see the correlation between the trajectory and line of sight.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

edgerat said:


> i encourage everyone to join the revolution and place sharpbh on your ignore list.


exactly!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

edgerat said:


> I encourage everyone to join the revolution and place sharpbh on your ignore list.


Done and you know what it feels like a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders, join the revolution :wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Str8 you are making my point - there is no way that the exact same sight picture can be used from 0 to 40 yards - it is IMPOSSIBLE - there has to be adjustments to that sight picture for the different distances - there is over 70" of drop between those two distances and you believe that the exact same sight picture can be used for all these distances - come on - you guys will resort to anything to deny the fact that your subconscious is making these adjustments to the sight picture.

You are right - if a compound shooter put one sight on his bow he would have to hold that sight higher or lower depending on the distance - and the same thing would happen - but to a MUCH larger degree with the MUCH slower arrows out of a recurve. Gap shooting would be like using a single sight - but you would have to have different gaps from 0-40 yards - there is no way that the exact same gap (sight picture) could be used from 0-40 yards anymore than a compound shooter could put one sight on his bow and hold that sight on the target at every distance from 0-40 yards without being either high or low depending on where the sight is set - and with an arrow going around 200 fps and drop in trajectory over over 70 inches - the miss will be HUGE!

I cannot believe that this is even being suggested - and then I am being called ignorant of the flight of the arrow - *I know that a 200 fps arrow's trajectory will drop over 70 inches over the course of 0 - 40 yards* and if you guys believe that the same gap can be used for all of these distances between 0 and 40 yards over the course of a 70+ inch drop - i have a bridge to sell you - wait - I think Jimmy sold you one!


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey.... what would happen if no one answered him?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Odd that in the video below - Jimmy teaches guys to figure out the gaps in 5 yard increments and even shows himself measuring them out on the target - and there is a heck of a lot more than 4" variation there and that was only out to 25 yards - not even close to 40 - he says to practice you gaps - note the plural - out to 30 yards and that eventually you will get to know your "gaps" again - note the plural until it becomes "almost instinctive" - yet now he tells us it is the same sight picture - the same gap all the way out to 40 yards - how is that? Oh - and this is his 3D set up - he said that in the beginning - so it is a fast bow. He admits that he is aiming high on shots in this video - well - if that is the game - sure the sight picture is always the same - if you then just aim high on the target - but if you are trying to use the same sight picture and aim where you want to hit - it ain't gonna happen - as he clearly admits in this first video - by having to aim high on the targets when they are further away or up hill! In this video he never shoots more than 30 yards yet he talks several times about the different gaps - hmmmm - odd ain't it if the same gap can be used from 0-40 yards!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I see that the new video is now gone from his blog and youtube - perhaps there will be some editing now to correct statements of what is obviously impossible


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here is some great information about sighting in a crossbow and the arc of the arrow - they have graphs with line of sight and tajectory and they even have charts for a 200fps arrow - and there is no way to cover 0-40 yards with one sight picture - it is impossible - the best they show is that you can cover 10-22 yards within 3 inches if zeroed in at 18 yards - if you try to cover 30 yards with a 25 yard sight in - (point on) - you have a +/- of 7 inches between 10 and 30 yards

here is the link: http://www.crossbowmen.com/index.htm.trajectory.html

There is just no way to cover the amount of drop in the trajectory from 0-40 yards with a 200 fps arrow - i don't care where you line of sight is


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Odd that in the video below - Jimmy teaches guys to figure out the gaps in 5 yard increments and even shows himself measuring them out on the target - and there is a heck of a lot more than 4" variation there and that was only out to 25 yards - not even close to 40 - he says to practice you gaps - note the plural - out to 30 yards and that eventually you will get to know your "gaps" again - note the plural until it becomes "almost instinctive" - yet now he tells us it is the same sight picture - the same gap all the way out to 40 yards - how is that? Oh - and this is his 3D set up - he said that in the beginning - so it is a fast bow. He admits that he is aiming high on shots in this video - well - if that is the game - sure the sight picture is always the same - if you then just aim high on the target - but if you are trying to use the same sight picture and aim where you want to hit - it ain't gonna happen - as he clearly admits in this first video - by having to aim high on the targets when they are further away or up hill! In this video he never shoots more than 30 yards yet he talks several times about the different gaps - hmmmm - odd ain't it if the same gap can be used from 0-40 yards!


Sharp... I didn't watch the video, but is Jimmy suggesting that he is gapping for point blank range? If not, why wouldn't you change your sight picture using gaps for different distances? I don't know if my method of aiming is gapping or not, but when I practice at 5, go to 15, come back to 10, go to 25, etc... I'm learning what this arrow combination does with different sight pictures. After a while, all I have to do is look down the arrow out to my target center, and the bow seems to take care of itself. You seem to be suggesting that that too is what he is suggesting.. and if so, why is that bad?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Str8 you are making my point - there is no way that the exact same sight picture can be used from 0 to 40 yards - it is IMPOSSIBLE - there has to be adjustments to that sight picture for the different distances - there is over 70" of drop between those two distances and you believe that the exact same sight picture can be used for all these distances - come on - you guys will resort to anything to deny the fact that your subconscious is making these adjustments to the sight picture.
> 
> You are right - if a compound shooter put one sight on his bow he would have to hold that sight higher or lower depending on the distance - and the same thing would happen - but to a MUCH larger degree with the MUCH slower arrows out of a recurve. Gap shooting would be like using a single sight - but you would have to have different gaps from 0-40 yards - there is no way that the exact same gap (sight picture) could be used from 0-40 yards anymore than a compound shooter could put one sight on his bow and hold that sight on the target at every distance from 0-40 yards without being either high or low depending on where the sight is set - and with an arrow going around 200 fps and drop in trajectory over over 70 inches - the miss will be HUGE!
> 
> I cannot believe that this is even being suggested - and then I am being called ignorant of the flight of the arrow - *I know that a 200 fps arrow's trajectory will drop over 70 inches over the course of 0 - 40 yards* and if you guys believe that the same gap can be used for all of these distances between 0 and 40 yards over the course of a 70+ inch drop - i have a bridge to sell you - wait - I think Jimmy sold you one!


Ok sharp... now we're getting into territory that I'm conversant in. Drop is a mathematical equation and has little to do with aiming, except we aim to utilize the drop to our advantage. Most of us would bury an arrow by shooting perpendicular to the ground or along our SIGHTLINE well before 40 yards. Every trajectory graph I know of will show an arrow or bullet traveling from a point (arrow rest or shelf) below our sightline and traversing through it to a maximum midrange elevation above our sightline back to the target. If we hit the target at our sightline, that is our zero range.

Now to answer your question, can a single gap picture be used between 0-40, I don't think so, but one could be used for 30 with 200 fps arrow and you'd have a +7/-7 trajectory. However Sharp, and I'm not a student of gap, I'm a student of heavy weight bulleted muzzleloaders and hunting scenarios with heavy bullets. The idea there is to zero at say 200 yards and learn what your "rise" is in increments prior. This means that I'm aiming at the animals underbelly at from about 25 yards to 150 and low at 175 and right on at 200. At 225 on the ridge puts me also in the boiler room. This is a form of gap shooting. The bullet rises over a foot along this range... but if I was shooting at targets along the way, my combined group superimposted would be astonishing if you didn't understand what was going on with drop and the compensation for it.

Gap as I understand it is not shooting for poing blank range, but which just using the table you provided for crossbows could provide for one out to 20 yards or so. Gapping as I understand it, is to understand a sight picture. Am I wrong? Don't gap shooters use the arrow to zero at some point and then you aim lower the closer the target moves and higher the further the target moves?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Ok I watched the video, and Jimmy made a comment that I think was inaccurate statement about shooting uphill and he mentioned that he overcompensated by aiming high. I think he came to realize this but just forgot to mention his discovery instead, suggesting he overcompensated.

He was right about cutting distance downhill and you have to ALSO CUT IT UPHILL! He was right that gravity slows a bullet or arrow uphill a tad, and that means that you still have to cut distance, just a tad less uphill than down. For example if you shoot downhill and cut 4" inches like he did at 15 yards or whatever it was, you cut maybe 3.5" uphill to accomplish the same point of impact.

Aloha... :beer:


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## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Logos said:


> Ah, the "instinctive" and "unconscious" shooters.
> 
> They do provide amusement.
> 
> ...


Just a small correction.....it's not voodoo......it's Pixie Dust! (if we want to argue over terms, lets get it right)http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/animated/boink.gif


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Str8 Shooter said:


> Too bad the vid isn't up. I was working on putting together a vid about simple aiming techniques but my camera crapped out. Jimmy always does an excellent job of explaining techniques.
> 
> Ken, you're not seeing the picture clearly. It's obvious you don't have a true understanding of aiming with the arrow because if you did you'd know what is being talked about. You're talking about using a 10 yard pin to shoot at 40 yards. That's pretty simple to see there is going to be a large amount of drop. Gapping is more similar to is using a pin set for a longer distance, say a 40 yards, and using it for all distances below that. Much of the drop is being compensated for because the actual arc of the arrow and how it interacts with your line of sight. Ask a good compound shooter to try using their 40 yard pin at a super close distance. Start at 1 or 2 yards and have them shoot the 40 pin at a block. Back up a yard at a time until the forty pin hits the bullseye. It should happen within the first 10 yards. Now, if you continue to have them shoot the 40 pin past this point until they reach 40 yards you'll see the arrows will impact high, reach a peak point (probably around 20-25 yards), begin to work there way back down until they finally impact the bullseye. That's gap shooting in a nutshell. Your arrow is a rough sight pin that you set for a specific distance. Gapping isn't having a point on at 10 yards and shooting the same exact hold for the next 30 yards. It's having a 25 or 30 or whatever rough sight on your bow and simply compensating for the amount it hits over or under at a given distance.
> 
> Typing this out is far more complicated than it is to actually try it out. Heck, you could even do it yourself. Draw back at very close distances, subconciously place the tip on the bullseye and shoot. Just keep working back until you find your point on. See how the arrows impact and you'll see the correlation between the trajectory and line of sight.


Great explanation. Very good example of using the 40 yard pin instead of the 10 yard pin because that is exactly how to works. That is why at distances below the PO distance gappers have to aim below the spot. It's unfortunate that some people just can't understand. Of course if you know everything why bother to try and learn something new. 
Good video and explanation Jimmy and good explanationSTR8. It's to early for popcorn so I'm going to,get,another cup of coffee and go to church.


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

This principal was explained to me many years ago when I started to shoot field. It can be easily confirmed on the "birdie" target. At two points along the arrows curve, the aiming point will be the same, provided one maintains the same line of sight. These days my bow is not that fast or powerful, however my aim is the same for the birdie target as it is for the 30 yard target.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

pokynojoe said:


> This principal was explained to me many years ago when I started to shoot field. It can be easily confirmed on the "birdie" target. At two points along the arrows curve, the aiming point will be the same, provided one maintains the same line of sight. These days my bow is not that fast or powerful, however my aim is the same for the birdie target as it is for the 30 yard target.


yep...and that's yet another fine example of the same trajectory/sighting principle i had to learn early on even with my pinned and peeped fingers/compound..

if i wanted to drill X's on the NFAA Feild Rd bunny target?..at 10yds?..

i hadta hold my 20yd pin HIGH at TDC of where the 3 ring meets the 4 ring to pinwheel the X below it.

because the trajectory of the arrow hadn't yet risen to my visual line-of-sight yet.

and i find it a crying shame that jimmy's "very valuable to the new aspiring trad archer" free lesson hadta get yanked over one (1) extremely closed mind with an agressive keyboard. 

sad i tell ya.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Good post Str8 shooter. Clarifies the issue very nicely.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Great video Jimmy thanks. You shouldn't take these things down, a lot of people like to watch them and extract tips to work on.
I love the fact that someone who never sees a gap or even their arrow can have an opinion on this, if it wasn't so sad it would be funny.
My gaps really do depend on the bow and arrow combo but with my 42# Blackbrook TDRC shooting 325grn arrows I have the same aim point from 10yds to 37yds shooting 3 under.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

You mean everybody but sharp knows he is wrong. As Jinks says Rod drew the same picture in MBB and explained it the same way. But we know sharp is smarter than Rod and Jimmy and and all of us gappers. That is why Jimmy wanted to teach him the gap method. Nobody in that high class of a shooters should be that ignorant.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hey Just 'cause they talk funny don't mean those southern boys ain't smart


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I'd like to watch the video, still shows as private.

As to the gap discussion, Str8 Shooter's analogy of a compound shooter using a 40 yard pin for all distances shorter illustrates the concept well. Unless the shooter is very close to the target, the arrow (or bullet) will _always_ intersect the line of sight twice, on the way up and the way down. It's clear that there will be a short and long distance where the gap (sight picture) is the same. Depending on the speed of the arrow, and how much of a high or low deviation the shooter can or will tolerate, one gap (sight picture) could work for a fairly wide range.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I have updated the video to clearly demonstrate what I am showing. I am uploading it now so give me an hour or so and check back. THis time I shoot and plot the arrow impacts.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

The argument just makes Gap shooting method cooler, according to one person we are bending the laws of physics, just call me Nero :wink:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

edgerat said:


> I encourage everyone to join the revolution and place sharpbh on your ignore list.





steve morley said:


> Done and you know what it feels like a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders, join the revolution :wink:



With some reluctance, I'm am following suit. 

I've given OSB the benefit of the doubt as when I arrived the arguments were already well-worn and I wasn't going to be jumping to conclusions about anybody.

My patience has run out. 

In honesty I will credit him with my better understanding of what 'Instinctive' archery means and what an instinctive archer can do.

If Ken wishes to be a proponent of his aiming method he needs to be respected and more tolerant of other methods.

This isn't a situation that when the smoke clears there will be only one aiming method left standing.

A little less paranoia that all comments are intended to annoy him would help too. Some are just what they are on face-value.

Part of my forbearance has been that I believe there are two sides to any dispute and I do think that he has been baited but he's hasn't been able to rise above it.

So others do bear some responsibility too. 

*Forum rules prevent me from airing my full thoughts *and I still wish to keep my opinions open as the FITA forum is still a good haunt.

This may make following some threads like reading a jig-saw puzzle but so be it.

So Ken, thanks for the good bits you've done, Slàinte.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Steve - you are Nero - happy now LOL


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks Jimmy for taking the time I got to see it but hope it can be made a sticky so we can refer back to it. I always like your stuff and need all the help I can get. Also thanks for answering the pms.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Keep bashing me and ignoring me - but in the first video that Jimmy made on gap shooting he said to find the gap in 5 yard increments from 0-30 yards - and now he and all of you guys are telling me that you don't need to do that - becuase the gap is the same from 0 to not 30 - but 40 yards! Why wouldn't Jimmy have just said figure out your gap at 10 yards and hey - you are good to 40 in his first video? Odd that he didn't ain't it?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken

I'm not ignoring you or bashing you - ok so maybe I poked a little fun. But you need to step back and stop arguing semantics. Maybe Jimmy phrased it poorly in the first vid but the concept is the same. 

Rather than getting hung up on the 10 yard pin use the 20 you will be a little high on the short stuff and a little low on the long stuff. Setting your gap is just a starting point your brain is doing the fine corrections as you pause focus and expand through your shot. Gap just gives you brain a more refined starting point - string walking even finer. I didn't start shooting well until I started thinking about string-walking as gap shooting with itty bitty gaps - then my focus shifted from the arrow tip to the spot where it belongs. 

Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

PS. The similarities in all of our aiming styles and for that matter us as people is much greater that the differences. 

Matt


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> yep...and that's yet another fine example of the same trajectory/sighting principle i had to learn early on even with my pinned and peeped fingers/compound..
> 
> if i wanted to drill X's on the NFAA Feild Rd bunny target?..at 10yds?..
> 
> ...




No,that's not right. There are more who realise the error including the OP himself. I was considering what he was saying very carefully while I watched the video. A big misunderstanding is going on here but I want to read the rest of the thread before commenting more. Note that right now I've only read about half the posts.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Almost uploaded. The first video I made, two years ago, was an example of the slow arrow. This shows the difference in the slow arrow and a fast arrow and it's affect on the gap. You will see it clearly explained in this one. Just a few more minutes.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> I didn't start shooting well until I started thinking about string-walking as gap shooting with itty bitty gaps - then my focus shifted from the arrow tip to the spot where it belongs.
> 
> Matt


Good post Matt, the first video Jimmy posted helps people to learn Gaps, as it becomes better ingrained you begin to discover that you dont have to be so exacting for the shorter distances and as the focus begins to shift more towards the spot the gap at short range becomes more of a comfortable sight picture rather than a precisely measured Gap.

I find for marked Field Im still fairly precise with my gaps as knowing face size and distance makes it easy, when I shoot unmarked 3D being able to make my short Gaps one basic sight picture (gap) allows for two things, firstly Im not too concerned about measuring distance or 3D and this also helps me shoot relaxed without needing to overthink the shot.

When I started out shooting I only every shot unmarked rounds instinctively, when I started to shoot marked IFAA I learned Gap because from watching others it was obviously an advantage, the added bonus to learning Gap was I could shoot and switch from one discipline to the other with ease i.e. both marked and unmarked equally well.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)




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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

a slow arrow - really - your 3D set up is a slow arrow? In your first video you said it was your 3D set up - odd that you would use a slow arrow for that - when in numerous other posts you talked about how you use a fast set up for 3D.

In you new video you claim that there is not that much drop with a fast arrow - yet we know even with a 200 fps arrow there is over 70 inches of drop between 0 and 40 yards.

Jimmy you accurately point out that with fast compound - say 280 fps they can use their 40 yard pin for a 5 yard shot - becuase the line of sight and trajectory cross at these points - BUT and you neglect to mention this - do you believe then that a compound shooter shooting a 280 fps arrow could still be in the ten ring if he used his 10 yard sight for a 40 yard shot? If not - please enlighten me on how an arrow going almost 100 fps slower could do this?

And you guys make fun of instinctive - wow


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Commenting again before I actually check out the new video. The problem may be a difference in what the so called "gap shooters' think they are doing and what they are really doing.
Anyone who knows anything about shooting should know that an arrow shot at 40 yds would definately cross the shooters line of sight at two points. Still does not mean that the sight picture can be the same at any point in between. Such a sight picture could be close,depending on lots of other things, but no cigar. Maybe that's what the OP was saying. Not that the same sight picture would produce dead on accuracy but might be 'colse enough' for some purposes.
And then there's the usual lack of understanding that the so called gap shooters have about the sight picture. It changes,whether you are aware of it or not.
Anyways,now I want to watch the new video. Maybe it will change my position.:wink:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

You didn't even watch the video. You posted in less time than is required to watch it. I'll let others explain this Ken. Clearly, you and I have a failure to communicate. I'm not making the physics up. I think I made a pretty clear case in this video. Yes, I've shot the slow arrow combo in some cases and the fast arrow combo in some cases as I tried to see which set up really worked best for me. It is a compromise. 

This is happening when you shoot as well and I would think that understanding it would help you shooting as you do.


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## wtpops (Sep 18, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Go ask a guy shooting a 300 fps compound if they can use the same sight for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - and then ask yourself how it would be possible to use the same gap with an arrow going 100 fps slower than that 300fps arrow.



A compounder shooting say a 5 yard shot will use his 60 or 70 yard pin and of course when shooting that 60 yard shot he will use his 60 yard pin, This is fact not a maybe or a guess


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken

Did you even bother to read my post or for that matter did you even watch Jimmy's vid. Or did you see the subject and the poster and rush to the key board to prove the world wrong. 

Taking part in a conversation is a two sided deal you need to listen an consider what they have to say not just wait until they are do so you can make the same old points. 

Great vid Jimmy very well done and thought out

Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> In you new video you claim that there is not that much drop with a fast arrow - yet we know even with a 200 fps arrow there is over 70 inches of drop between 0 and 40 yards.


Ken?..i'm not certain but...i believe if you were to replace the word "drop" WITH the word "arch" in your above statement?..it may eliminate some of your apparent confusion with "gapping" here.



sharpbroadhead said:


> And you guys make fun of instinctive - wow


I don't..in my world?..i think both gap AND instinctive have their respective places..cause i wouldn't attempt an instinctively executed 80yd shot during an NFAA field round any more than i would attempt gapping out a big buck at 40 but...

the day deer start running around the woods dodging yardage markers with tape measures dangling from their shoulders?..

is the day i become a gap hunter! :laugh:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Great video Jimmy, Its interesting to know how the hell Ive managed to win two world titles and a European title (European Field record as well) in both marked Field and unmarked 3D with an aiming system considered impossible and against the laws of physics............................ I must be one lucky shooter.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Jinx you are correct. He is misinterpreting the computer. From the apex of the arch to the point that the arrow hits the target may very well be 50" but it will vary with arrow speed of course.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> No,that's not right. There are more who realise the error including the OP himself. I was considering what he was saying very carefully while I watched the video. A big misunderstanding is going on here but I want to read the rest of the thread before commenting more. Note that right now I've only read about half the posts.


Forest, for one of few times, you and I agree wholeheartedly on this one. I respect everything Jimmy does but this is nowhere close to reality as far as gapping goes.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Great video Jimmy, Its interesting to know how the hell Ive managed to win two world titles and a European title (European Field record as well) in both marked Field and unmarked 3D with an aiming system considered impossible and against the laws of physics............................ I must be one lucky shooter.


:thumbs_up. LOL

Ray :shade:


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

I am not listing to a person who comes on and his first words are "This is ridiculous". It's without manners and he has admitted in another thread that they are equal in their shooting so Jimmy should be treated as an equal and since Jimmy has the new vid up mods lock the thread before we all get banned. Make it a sticky PLEASE. The best thing is ignore because I see no value in his rants . No one else who is at the top of our sport acts like this. All I have seen are true gentlemen. It is nothing but pure jealousy on his part. It happens anytime Jimmy or Viper post. So there you go.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

steve morley said:


> Great video Jimmy, Its interesting to know how the hell Ive managed to win two world titles and a European title (European Field record as well) in both marked Field and unmarked 3D with an aiming system considered impossible and against the laws of physics............................ I must be one lucky shooter.


No Steve as I told you before you are "Nero"


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

wtpops said:


> A compounder shooting say a 5 yard shot will use his 60 or 70 yard pin and of course when shooting that 60 yard shot he will use his 60 yard pin, This is fact not a maybe or a guess



Really? Definate fact in all cases eh? Well I have done a LOT of compound shooting and never found that to be true. Now I could use my 20yd setting for real close shots. But that also depends on how close the shot is and varies with different setups.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

steve morley said:


> Great video Jimmy, Its interesting to know how the hell Ive managed to win two world titles and a European title (European Field record as well) in both marked Field and unmarked 3D with an aiming system considered impossible and against the laws of physics............................ I must be one lucky shooter.


I can imagine there are other explanations though.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, for one of few times, you and I agree wholeheartedly on this one. I respect everything Jimmy does but this is nowhere close to reality as far as gapping goes.



Although with your gapping method we might be fairly close in the ballpark. But the actual sight picture has to change,no matter how slight,it's still a change and the more gap the more the sight picture will change.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

I think it's good only as GENERAL information.

Any two shooters might have quite different-looking trajectories because--many things--including but not limited to, angle of departure, speed, and most important, vision and visual perception--will be different in different bows and different shooters.

When these things like this are posted, some will say it's ridiculous and some will say it's wonderful.

Some things will never change.

:amen:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I clearly demonstrated how to plot your own trajectory. You don't have to believe the video. Go out and test it. Shoot the arrow pointing at a dot, measure and plot it. Yes, every bow arrow combo will be a little bit different...that's my point in choosing speeds. What is powerful is to know yours. You guys that say this is false I'm not sure what you disagree with. Please tell us what is wrong in the physics of this demonstration. When I say sight picture I am saying that I am still aiming at the very same spot on the animal from 15 - 30 yards and the arrow is only varying a few inches in impact. How do you dispute that?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> But the actual sight picture has to change,no matter how slight,it's still a change


Forest I agree and if you see Jimmys video he also says this, if an instinctive Archer can use the grey matter between his ears to make great shots without conscious visual use of the arrow it should not be very hard for a gapper to make a slight (subconscious) compensation for a well ingrained gap.

If it was a perfect aiming method we would be shooting the same scores as the sighted shooters, all the unsighted aiming methods have strong/weak areas, its all about the challenge of making it work for you no matter what aiming system you use.

The thead is titled "The gap compromise"


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Next up, Jimmy will explain GRAVITY and be scoffed at! Amazing.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ozzypop said:


> I am not listing to a person who comes on and his first words are "This is ridiculous". It's without manners and he has admitted in another thread that they are equal in their shooting so Jimmy should be treated as an equal and since Jimmy has the new vid up mods lock the thread before we all get banned. Make it a sticky PLEASE. The best thing is ignore because I see no value in his rants . No one else who is at the top of our sport acts like this. All I have seen are true gentlemen. It is nothing but pure jealousy on his part. It happens anytime Jimmy or Viper post. So there you go.



No, this is rediculous. And I'd be willing to bet you can't prove those absolute statements you just made.
Why do YOU want the thread 'locked? Because you don't agree with some of the discussion?


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't dispute any of your basic premise. 

Everybody looking for precision accuracy could benefit from carefully testing and knowing their average trajectory.

Well done on that.

:amen:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I clearly demonstrated how to plot your own trajectory. You don't have to believe the video. Go out and test it. Shoot the arrow pointing at a dot, measure and plot it. Yes, every bow arrow combo will be a little bit different...that's my point in choosing speeds. What is powerful is to know yours. You guys that say this is false I'm not sure what you disagree with. Please tell us what is wrong in the physics of this demonstration. When I say sight picture I am saying that I am still aiming at the very same spot on the animal from 15 - 30 yards and the arrow is only varying a few inches in impact. How do you dispute that?



Oh,OK. So you're not saying that the sight picture remains the same. Just that you are aiming at the very same spot. Got it. But one question. Is that using the same gap also or does it in fact change? Or does it get set, ignored and reset by the brain to compensate for possible error in distance and 'gap' measurements?


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

"No, this is rediculous. And I'd be willing to bet you can't prove those absolute statements you just made.
Why do YOU want the thread 'locked? Because you don't agree with some of the discussion?"

No none of that Forest. In fact I have been working on instinctive shooting with my Hill bows. What i can not abide is rudeness in a person. Go back and read the thread what were the first words out of his mouth. Could he not have said" Jimmy i don't quite understand your premise." In stead of "This is rediculous". Do you not see the difference?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

edgerat said:


> Next up, Jimmy will explain GRAVITY and be scoffed at! Amazing.



Scoffed at? Maybe not. But percieved holes in the theory could be questioned. Please note the word 'percieved'.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wtpops said:


> A compounder shooting say a 5 yard shot will use his 60 or 70 yard pin and of course when shooting that 60 yard shot he will use his 60 yard pin, This is fact not a maybe or a guess


If you actually read what I stated - I said as much that a compound shooter will be able to use his 40 yard sight for a 5 yard shot because their line of sight crosses the arrow trajectory at these two points - but do you believe that they can then use the same sight for a 10 yard shot as a 40 yard shot and still be in the ten ring - if so - you go try that and see what happens.

If you don't believe that he can - then explain to me how on God's green earth - a guy shooting an arrow 100 fps slower can have the exact same sight picture from 0-40 yards and still be in the ten ring!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ken
> 
> I'm not ignoring you or bashing you - ok so maybe I poked a little fun. But you need to step back and stop arguing semantics. Maybe Jimmy phrased it poorly in the first vid but the concept is the same.
> 
> ...


Matt, I hate to say it but Sharp is all over this one and you should know better. Regardless of what Logos says, There is noone who knows the gap system better than I and all of the scenarios presented here are off base. There is no way the gap can stay the same from 0 to 30 yards. I will give you an example that applies to your style of shooting,stringwalking. Your crawl for 5 meters is way lower than your crawl for 30 yards. If those, saying their gaps are the same for those distances, were correct, then your crawls would be the same. The fact is they are not, right.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

ozzypop said:


> What i can not abide is rudeness in a person. Go back and read the thread what were the first words out of his mouth. Could he not have said" Jimmy i don't quite understand your premise." In stead of "This is rediculous". Do you not see the difference?


No, if he thinks it's ridiculous he should say so. Far, far worse things are said here every day, so why pick on that guy?

The truth is, you get stomped on if you say it to certain people and you get applauded if you say it to others.

It is true, however, that a lot of people here need to find a better place to vent their anger.

:kiss:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Really? Definate fact in all cases eh? Well I have done a LOT of compound shooting and never found that to be true. Now I could use my 20yd setting for real close shots. But that also depends on how close the shot is and varies with different setups.


Forest, yes it is a definite fact on short yardage shots with a compound and sights. Check out 2-3-4 yard shots with a sight You will be shooting those yardages for around 55-45-35 yards respectfully.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> put a sight on that bow and see how you ride the arc of that arrow when you use the 10 yards sight to shoot at a 40 yard target!


 if the top pin is 20yds how about doing the opposite use the 40 yd pin at a 10 yd target what happens then. :wink:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ozzypop said:


> "No, this is rediculous. And I'd be willing to bet you can't prove those absolute statements you just made.
> Why do YOU want the thread 'locked? Because you don't agree with some of the discussion?"
> 
> No none of that Forest. In fact I have been working on instinctive shooting with my Hill bows. What i can not abide is rudeness in a person. Go back and read the thread what were the first words out of his mouth. Could he not have said" Jimmy i don't quite understand your premise." In stead of "This is rediculous". Do you not see the difference?




Yes Sir,I do in fact see the difference. It's the basic difference in people in general and I will put this in terms that may not be well recieved.
One person will try to come across as knowing more about a subject than everybody else but has a smooooth way of staying on the down low. Some call that arrogant. Some call it slick. Many get sucked into believing it all no matter what and defend that position with a vengeance.
The other person is a little more direct and tends to put things more bluntly and call straight up bs when they see these things take place. Many here will challenge sharpbroadhead no matter if he says the sky is blue. They just like doing it,not because he's really that stupid or always wrong. Just because it's fun. In this case Mr Blackmon is the beneficiary of that wolfpack mentality.
Of course,everyone knows that Ken is my hero. I sure wish I knew the guy so I could decide that for myself. On second thought,we're probably too much alike and would not get along at all in the real world. He's so brash, and quick to question things.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, yes it is a definite fact on short yardage shots with a compound and sights. Check out 2-3-4 yard shots with a sight You will be shooting those yardages for around 55-45-35 yards respectfully.


Depending on the variables involved. I'm still not so sure about the 70yd though. I think I was pointing out the relevance of those things to this particular situation. My opinion of course.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Matt, I hate to say it but Sharp is all over this one and you should know better. Regardless of what Logos says, There is noone who knows the gap system better than I and all of the scenarios presented here are off base. There is no way the gap can stay the same from 0 to 30 yards. I will give you an example that applies to your style of shooting,stringwalking. Your crawl for 5 meters is way lower than your crawl for 30 yards. If those, saying their gaps are the same for those distances, were correct, then your crawls would be the same. The fact is they are not, right.


the OP did NOT claim the gap was the SAME, I saw the video, I understood what he MEANT, I do agree he was off when he stated the arrow would still be in the 10 ring, arrow could be in the foam, but NOT in the 10 ring IMHO.

this is where I think SBH is clinging too, the actual yardage that was shoot in the video IIRC was 10-25 yards, not 40.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Matt, I hate to say it but Sharp is all over this one and you should know better. Regardless of what Logos says, There is noone who knows the gap system better than I and all of the scenarios presented here are off base. There is no way the gap can stay the same from 0 to 30 yards. I will give you an example that applies to your style of shooting,stringwalking. Your crawl for 5 meters is way lower than your crawl for 30 yards. If those, saying their gaps are the same for those distances, were correct, then your crawls would be the same. The fact is they are not, right.


Thank you itbeso - I was starting to wonder if everyone was losing their minds - btw - Jimmy in this new video says that the gap (sight picture) is the same from 0-40 yards - not 30 - it is impossible


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

crossxsticks said:


> if the top pin is 20yds how about doing the opposite use the 40 yd pin at a 10 yd target what happens then. :wink:



That could work,but I'm willing to bet the actual sight picture will be different. The discussion is not whether you can use the same sight pin at two distances,but rather about the sight picture as see from the shooters eye.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Thank you itbeso - I was starting to wonder if everyone was losing their minds - btw - Jimmy in this new video says that the gap (sight picture) is the same from 0-40 yards - not 30 - it is impossible


link to new video


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> There is noone who knows the gap system better than I and all of the scenarios presented here are off base. There is no way the gap can stay the same from 0 to 30 yards.


I think your gap method is different and some here doubted in previous posts (including me, thats why I tried it for myself) you could have such refined gaps and hold steady on them, maybe you should think of this Gap method as less precise as yours, more of a "get me on target" gap and the fine tuning aim is done at a lower level of conscious awareness, similar to an Oly sighted Archer not being able hold their pin dead steady at 70m, so they focus on the spot and let the subconscious decide when the sight is floating in the gold.

Once my gap is set my conscious focus starts to shift more onto the spot and the initial visual gap now just becomes more of an awareness, Im still maintaining the relationship between spot/gap but Im trusting the subconscious to know when everything is lined up and for me to continue with expansion. I get the impression from what youve told me of your gapping the focus appears to me much more visual, conscious and precise during the whole sequence.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - that was my point all along - that while Jimmy THINKS he is using the exact same sight picture from 0-40 yards - the reality is that his subconscious is making adjustments for the different distances


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> That could work,but I'm willing to bet the actual sight picture will be different. The discussion is not whether you can use the same sight pin at two distances,but rather about the sight picture as see from the shooters eye.


y'all confuese me, i am going back hunting :darkbeer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jkcerda - are you kidding me - Jimmy linked to it several times and in the first few minutes of it he shows his graph out to 40 yards - you are arguing with me and you have not even watched it?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> No,that's not right. There are more who realise the error including the OP himself. I was considering what he was saying very carefully while I watched the video. A big misunderstanding is going on here but I want to read the rest of the thread before commenting more. Note that right now I've only read about half the posts.


:grin: I only care if *I got it right... :grin:*


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

ITBSO

I get what you are saying. But Jimmy isn't saying use your 10 yard gap for all you shots he is pointing out that over a relatively short span most of your gaps are quite close. We aren't talking nfaa here we are talking IBO at trad worlds 90% of my shots were over a 4 stitch spread I could have split the difference and shot all the shots from the middle crawl and done fairly well on 90% of the targets - throw in a different crawl for the obviously long ones and the obviously short ones and you have something. 

Clearly you will do better if you accurately estimate your yardage and have a different gap/crawl for each yardage but, that wasn't Jimmies point as I understand it. 

Matt


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Steve - that was my point all along - that while Jimmy THINKS he is using the exact same sight picture from 0-40 yards - the reality is that his subconscious is making adjustments for the different distances


OOOOOOOOOoooooo.......cue the spooky music.

The subconscious took over and Jimmy didn't even know it!!! 

Call in the Exorcist!!! 

:mg:

P.S. (That sounds.......how do you say it? Oh yeah, ridiculous.)


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I cannot speak for others but what I previously explained is the way I feel Im able to maintain the same Gap/sight picture from 20 out to 30 yards (my point on is 55 yards) Im blending different aiming methods depending on the distance, some very short awkward angle shots I just shooting instinctively, most of my shots out to 30y I (and many others)call Gapinstinctive i.e blending the best bits of both these aiming methods.


Jimmy mentions on his first video on Gap that once ingrained the gaps become "instinctive like" meaning you need less reliance/thought going into the gap, the gap is learnt and you just know it feels right when you set the initial gap, when they become this well ingrained you see some great shooting happening :thumbs_up


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jkcerda - are you kidding me - Jimmy linked to it several times and in the first few minutes of it he shows his graph out to 40 yards - you are arguing with me and you have not even watched it?


darling, I WATCHED the video, hell, I embeded it at the start :doh: his graph showed different from his actual SHOTS. 3 shots IIRC on the video

I am not arguing a FOR or AGAINST you, I am DEBATING, at any rate both YOU and the OP have valid points:kiss:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

steve morley said:


> I think your gap method is different and some here doubted in previous posts (including me, thats why I tried it for myself) you could have such refined gaps and hold steady on them, maybe you should think of this Gap method as less precise as yours, more of a "get me on target" gap and the fine tuning aim is done at a lower level of conscious awareness, similar to an Oly sighted Archer not being able hold their pin dead steady at 70m, so they focus on the spot and let the subconscious decide when the sight is floating in the gold.
> 
> Once my gap is set my conscious focus starts to shift more onto the spot and the initial visual gap now just becomes more of an awareness, Im still maintaining the relationship between spot/gap but Im trusting the subconscious to know when everything is lined up and for me to continue with expansion. I get the impression from what youve told me of your gapping the focus appears to me much more visual, conscious and precise during the whole sequence.



Mr. Morley, I do agree about itbeso gapping. Probably more better if I was just smart enough to use it.:wink:
On a more serious note, when everyone here has admitted what you readily confess,I will immediately get off their case about the so called 'gap' thing. And to be honest with you,(this is a secret between us) the only reason I hammer the point so hard is because so many tend to claim they know how to shoot instinctively but make light of the method in their next post. I believe that turn about is fair play.
Ok,that's not the only reason. I guess it's because the form of gap shooting they claim really is instinctive at the core. Difference in perspective.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I clearly demonstrated how to plot your own trajectory. You don't have to believe the video. Go out and test it. Shoot the arrow pointing at a dot, measure and plot it. Yes, every bow arrow combo will be a little bit different...that's my point in choosing speeds. What is powerful is to know yours. You guys that say this is false I'm not sure what you disagree with. Please tell us what is wrong in the physics of this demonstration. When I say sight picture I am saying that I am still aiming at the very same spot on the animal from 15 - 30 yards and the arrow is only varying a few inches in impact. How do you dispute that?


Jimmy, I finally realized what is wrong with this whole thread. Your terminology is not correct. If you had labeled this thread as point of aim compromise then your points would be valid. The gap is a completely different thing. You are aiming at the same point throughout your whole explanation, and that is point of aim, not gap. To illustrate my point, cut a 1/2" slot in a piece of thin cardboard. Take that 1/2" gap and stand 5yards from a target with a spot on it. The distance from the top of the slot to the bottom of the slot might be 6-8 inches on the target. Now go to 30 yards and do the same , the distance from the top of slot to bottom of slot might be 24-30" or more on the target. You Eastern guys call pick-a-point "gap shooting", We western guys gap shoot without ever knowing where the tip of the arrow is pointed, except at point on. Again, just differences in language. By the way, not bashing, just clarifying what was confusing to me. Keep up your good work


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy's video is gone again - guess he is back to the editing room


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Almost uploaded. The first video I made, two years ago, was an example of the slow arrow. This shows the difference in the slow arrow and a fast arrow and it's affect on the gap. You will see it clearly explained in this one. Just a few more minutes.


Hi Jimmy. This isn't a criticism, just a comment and a correction to something you said in the video I watched. I thought you did a nice job with the video and I understood it. You did make a comment about shooting uphill that was initially incorrect and i took it that you discovered your error and compensated but forgot to redress your original statement, that was that you have to aim higher on an uphill shot and lower on a downhill. You aim lower on both, only a little less going uphill than down of the same angle of shot due to the arrow goes a little slower uphill.

Aloha... :beer:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> ITBSO
> 
> I get what you are saying. But Jimmy isn't saying use your 10 yard gap for all you shots he is pointing out that over a relatively short span most of your gaps are quite close. We aren't talking nfaa here we are talking IBO at trad worlds 90% of my shots were over a 4 stitch spread I could have split the difference and shot all the shots from the middle crawl and done fairly well on 90% of the targets - throw in a different crawl for the obviously long ones and the obviously short ones and you have something.
> 
> ...


Matt, what took you so long to figure that 4 stitch thing out, the tourney is over.:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The bottom line is this - between 0 and 40 yards of trajectory there is a HUGE drop in the arrow - over 70" with a 200 fps arrow - and no matter where your line of sight comes into play in this trajectory - there is no possible way that the span of 0-40 yards could be covered with the exact same sight picture and still allow the arrow to be in the 10 ring on a typical 3D target. There has to be a change in the sight picture to make accurate shots over that span of distance - i don't care how fast your arrow is - and to claim otherwise is, and I will say it again - ridiculous.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> Hi Jimmy. This isn't a criticism, just a comment and a correction to something you said in the video I watched. I thought you did a nice job with the video and I understood it. You did make a comment about shooting uphill that was initially incorrect and i took it that you discovered your error and compensated but forgot to redress your original statement, that was that you have to aim higher on an uphill shot and lower on a downhill. You aim lower on both, only a little less going uphill than down of the same angle of shot due to the arrow goes a little slower uphill.
> 
> Aloha... :beer:


Rat, your premise is true when shooting freestyle and release, however I have always had to add uphill when shooting fingers and barebow.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

<insert my best Capt. James T. Kirk Voice Here>

MUUUUST...RE....MEMBER...AR...CHERY..IS....A...SP..IRIT...UAL...EX..PERIENCE!

Hey!..don't laugh...it was either that or Rodney King! :laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Rat, your premise is true when shooting freestyle and release, however I have always had to add uphill when shooting fingers and barebow.


I don't doubt you, but that could be because of your body geometry, not because of required trajectory is what you're saying right?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jimmy's video is gone again - guess he is back to the editing room


I will say this sharp... you got this critcism thing down to the finer points.... :grin:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Mr. Morley, I do agree about itbeso gapping. Probably more better if I was just smart enough to use it.:wink:
> On a more serious note, when everyone here has admitted what you readily confess,I will immediately get off their case about the so called 'gap' thing. And to be honest with you,(this is a secret between us) the only reason I hammer the point so hard is because so many tend to claim they know how to shoot instinctively but make light of the method in their next post. I believe that turn about is fair play.
> Ok,that's not the only reason. I guess it's because the form of gap shooting they claim really is instinctive at the core. Difference in perspective.


Forest how Gap and Instinctive archers learn to shoot is a very different process but I feel the end result is very similar in regards the distibution of conscious and subconsious input, whatever amount that may be (thats another can of worms lol) when the sighted shooters are keeping focus on the spot and allowing the aim to happen without trying to force the sight pin into the gold, and we all know what happens when we try that with sight or arrow tip :wink:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> I don't doubt you, but that could be because of your body geometry, not because of required trajectory is what you're saying right?


ba-x-sl=hh-hl. Yea, thats it:wink:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Gents,
The ballistic calculator is based on flat shooting. So the rifle is set up to shoot dead level and the ballistics are from shot until the bullet hits the ground. We don't shoot level. The nock of the arrow is below our eye and we arc the arrow to the target. There is a big difference. 

Rattus - you are 100% correct on the uphill. I corrected that in a later video but that did not correct it in the one you are referring to. You cut yardage downhill and you cut uphill...just less. However, very few archers can cut uphill because they do not draw the bow exactly the same. 

itbeso - If you "California gap" at the arrow then yes, I concur with you completely. The sight picture changes in that case. Gary and I have discussed this and I am very familiar with this style of gapping. I am in essence using pick a point for this illustration but when I actually shoot I don't use pick a point. I don't aim at that spot and ignore the bull. I know the inches of gap for a given distance and then estimate down the animal but I use the sight picture as I define it. I look at the spot I want to hit and see the arrow in my peripheral vision.

Gentlemen - ballistically what I have shown you is spot on. I am sorry if it isn't making sense to you but you but it's correct. There are many variables involved ie. size and shape of face, arrow wt. bow wt. and a thousand other things, but what I am trying to tell folks is that if you are aware of these things it will help you.

Ken - I can't really discuss it with you until you go out and test it. I know you are terrified that if you see that arrow once you'll never be able to ignore it ever again, but you have to have a little faith that you will be able to block it out. Why would you refuse to just go out and see if I compensated. What you are saying is that I actually changed my aim point without knowing it. Well, I didn't and I can prove it to you by having you go do exactly what I did.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

itbeso said:


> ba-x-sl=hh-hl. Yea, thats it:wink:


long as i'm right... :grin::music:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy - I don't need to test it - if your theory is right then a compound shooter should be able to use the same sight for a 10 yard shot as for a 40 yard shot - can he?


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Jesse Moorehead did until they put a speed restriction in the books. He shot a 100# compound or right at 100. He was the only guy who could shoot that heavy of a bow and his trajectory was flat as a pancake. Why would you argue so vehemently and not be willing to test it? I truly don't understand why you could not believe that you could be wrong. I have no agenda here. I am only trying to share information with fellow archers to try and help them. I don't care if you gap or not. I just think it's good to understand what the arrow is doing in flight and how that affects your aiming. For you the fast arrow is a big advantage. Since the slower arrow arcs more your brain is having to calculate more and your brain can be fooled by shadows and various visual illusions. If you shoot a faster arrow thus a flatter trajectory your brain has to get used to a larger gap between eye and arrow flight but it can miss the distance and still be okay. I don't mean you are judging distance but your brain certainly is so it can subconsciously put your bow hand in the right spot to hit. The fewer variables involved the more accurate the brain's calculation. Just trying to help Ken.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sharp - Still not giving up on that 10 yard pin gotta give you points for persistence. 

Matt


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Jimmy - I don't need to test it - if your theory is right then a compound shooter should be able to use the same sight for a 10 yard shot as for a 40 yard shot - can he?


Get out of your moms basement and go test it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy - your test is subjective - if your subconsicous is making adjustments to the sight picture - you would not know it - you would think that you are seeing the same sight picture - when in reality - your subconscious is adjusting for the different distances.

objectively it cannot happen without adjustments to the sight picture - as I showed with the crossbow chart that I linked too and the ballistics chart, not to mention the FACT that comound shooters with near 300 fps arrows cannot use the same sight picture for a 40 yard range and you would have us believe that you can do it with a bow that is shooting an arrow 100 fps slower? - no matter where the line of sight interacts with the trajectory - there is no way to cover a 40 yard span of distances with the same sight picture - IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!

I shoot with a lot of compound shooters - top shooters and none of them use the same sight for a 40 distances span - and they are shooting bows that are 300 fps!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

When I do my video on how I shoot instinctively - I am going to put my bow - 214 fps - into the hooter shooter at my range and get it dead on at 10 yards and then move the target back to 30 yards and shoot - you will all see just how much drop there is even with a fast arrow.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

WOW that ignore button works just great, saves reading a lot of pointless clutter, Im guessing Ken is sounding a bit like a broken record by now, posting the same argument over and over trying to hammer his point home.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> WOW that ignore button works just great, saves reading a lot of pointless clutter, Im guessing Ken is sounding a bit like a broken record by now, posting the same argument over and over trying to hammer his point home.


yeah... my missuse does the same... keeps sayin no.....


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

How is his subconscious making adjustments if he has the point on one spot?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

MacIndust said:


> How is his subconscious making adjustments if he has the point on one spot?


I think Jimmy did keep arrow on the one lower spot (POA) for this video demo, as he did mention small variations in arrow impact when he was shooting but I feel when the gaps are better ingrained, more focus can be directed on the spot and those small gap variations can be compensated for by the subconscious, giving improved accuracy.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

steve morley said:


> WOW that ignore button works just great, saves reading a lot of pointless clutter, Im guessing Ken is sounding a bit like a broken record by now, posting the same argument over and over trying to hammer his point home.



Why not? When you are right there's no need to refrain from protesting inaccurate information. It's in the best interest of everyone.
I'm still convinced that Blackmon is wrong and no way the same sight picture can work accurately over long distance. For somewhere on the target accuracy,maybe.
I have to stick to my guns on it also. If you put a bow in a shooting machine at 15yds,make a photo of the sight picture as seen from the shooters perspective,then move the target out to 35yds and make another photo, I believe they will be different. The only way I will believe anything else is with some controlled testing as I have mentioned. Then if I'm proven wrong,I will be happy to concede.


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

I agree with that, Steve. But that is not the argument sharp is making.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

MacIndust - that is the point - if Jimmy is accurately hitting the ten ring at all distances from 0 - 40 yards he is not putting his point in the same spot - he may think he is - but he is not - it is not possible - there is over 70" of drop between 0 and 40 yards and no matter where your line if sight intersects in that trajectory - there is no possible way that one sight picture could keep the arrow in the ten ring in that range of distance - IT CANNOT HAPPEN - so If Jimmy THINKS he is using the same sight picture for all points between 0 and 40 yards - he simply is not - and by the fact that he thinks he is - is proof that the changes in the sight picture necessary to keep the arrow in the ten ring over that span of distance are done at a subconscious level.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Why keep removing the video? Is it up or down now? I never got the chance to check out the modified version before it disappeared,again.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Nero, was he that orange and white fish???



QUOTE=Matt_Potter;1065483346]No Steve as I told you before you are "Nero"[/QUOTE]


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

forestgump said:


> why keep removing the video? Is it up or down now? I never got the chance to check out the modified version before it disappeared,again.


lol


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## MacIndust (Feb 7, 2012)

I hear ya, now. You are referring to once he is actually out shooting and not the demo.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

All of you are missing a point that I'm not clear on. An arrow will unquestionably hit two points along its trajectory exactly the same. No question about that at all. What the question is, is where. That also being said, if you have a target bull that scores say 3" above to 3" below center, you will now have two more targets along this path that will score. One betwixt the first and second target where they hit together, and one beyond... hitting the low spot. Now you have 4 scorable points along the trajectory. We call this point blank range while hunting. Is this the same as point on? I would think yes if its for a score on a target bull that has some span or diameter, how could you figure otherwise?


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> All of you are missing a point that I'm not clear on. An arrow will unquestionably hit two points along its trajectory exactly the same. No question about that at all. What the question is, is where. That also being said, if you have a target bull that scores say 3" above to 3" below center, you will now have two more targets along this path that will score. One betwixt the first and second target where they hit together, and one beyond... hitting the low spot. Now you have 4 scorable points along the trajectory. We call this point blank range while hunting. Is this the same as point on? I would think yes if its for a score on a target bull that has some span or diameter, *how could you figure otherwise?*


Instinctively of course :grin:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I think end of the day you have to look at Jimmys video like this, he posted to help people learn/understand Gap method a little better, not the physics of it but how to visualize the gaps in an quick and easy to understand format (for some at least lol).

For those who dont want to understand/shoot gap then this is no use to you, for those wanting to learn gap go out and try (you have nothing to lose), if you get the same results as myself, Jimmy and a few other gappers then it will very likely help you improve your shooting, if it doesnt work out then no worries, plenty of other aiming methods to try.

I hope this thread hasnt put Jimmy off making more videos, he has made some great videos over the last year or so and would be a great loss to many new shooters if he stopped making them, he gives up his time and does all this hard work for you guys out there.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jkcerda said:


> Instinctively of course :grin:


Hahahahaha..... you sharp little devil you..... :grin:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I went out and did this for myself today. I used a very fast recurve and light arrows. My plots and curve almost mirrored Jimmy's but my bow is 5# heavier so the measurements were a little different.
It's a really easy concept to grasp and the facts are there. My flat spot is between 17 and 33yds, there is less than 1" difference in the impact area using the same gap for those yardages. 38yd was the same as 10yd and 42 came back to point on.
I think if Jim said anything then some would argue with it that's just the way it is I guess, maybe it's a hint of jealousy from those who have tried but never quite managed to win a world champs, I don't know but they should do what I did, take your bow, a tape measure and a pen and paper out and shoot it for yourself before you gob off to much. And for those who don't ever see their arrow, well you have no place in this discussion because how can you have an opinion on something that you can never do.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Bigjono said:


> I went out and did this for myself today. I used a very fast recurve and light arrows. My plots and curve almost mirrored Jimmy's but my bow is 5# heavier so the measurements were a little different.
> It's a really easy concept to grasp and the facts are there. My flat spot is between 17 and 33yds, there is less than 1" difference in the impact area using the same gap for those yardages. 38yd was the same as 10yd and 42 came back to point on.
> I think if Jim said anything then some would argue with it that's just the way it is I guess, maybe it's a hint of jealousy from those who have tried but never quite managed to win a world champs, I don't know but they should do what I did, take your bow, a tape measure and a pen and paper out and shoot it for yourself before you gob off to much. And for those who don't ever see their arrow, well you have no place in this discussion because how can you have an opinion on something that you can never do.



So maybe you can now tell us exactly what it is that you did. Since the OP keeps dangling a video and jerking it back before we have time to give it real consideration. 
Let me give it a shot. You went out and shot arrows by aiming your arrow at the same spot while changing the distance from short to long. And all the arrows hit the same place. Is that right or wrong? I assume you also watched very closely to make sure that you were focused on that same spot the whole time, not on the place you expected the arrow to hit. Otherwise the subconscious could sneak in and upset the apple cart.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm going to reluctantly put in my 2 cents worth.ukey:

First, What Jimmy is showing is completely correct. Please read on before you go "ballistic." 

Second, He IS using a point of aim in the explanation. He is doing that to get the arrow on essentially the same trajectory for each shot. At each range, the arrow will be a certain distance above the point of aim when it hits the target. You can see the arrows move first up then start to come back down as his range increases. This is the classic way of determining your gaps for different range distances. You USE the SAME Point of aim from "up close" to all the way back to your point on distance -- he just didn't go all the way back to POD. By getting the same trajectory, you can measure and write down the gaps (which is what he does). And now when you shoot, you set the gap for that distance -- Point of aim is done and was ONLY used to determine the gaps to start with.

Third, watching the arrow hits in the video, you can see them start low (at 10 yards) then move higher on the target UNTIL three of them are hitting within 2 or 3 inches of each other, then they move down again as he continues to increase range. The first arrow he shot at 10 yards is right about the same height as the last arrow -- the arrow is coming back down to the POA so the 10 yard arrow and the last arrow can use about the same gap.

Forth, His middle three arrows are hitting within a few inches of each other (mid-range) and THAT IS WHERE HE IS SAYING THAT YOU CAN USE THE SAME GAP!! (Somewhere around 10 to 15 yards in the MIDDLE of the trajectory arc.) And keep those arrows in the 10 ring. NOT that the gap is the same for ALL distances!!

Finally, He says clearly, that YOU must find your own gaps, they (the gaps) will be different for all shooters depending on where you anchor, and equipment performance.

I DO NOT see that he ever says that you use the same gap for all distances out to 40 yards (or 30). Just that there is a range of distances in the middle where you can use the same gap and hit the 10 ring.

IF you are interested in the "gap" method, this will work well for you. IF you are NOT interested in Gap shooting, then move on to whatever you do. No biggie.

Good job Jimmy!!

Arne


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

I found sharp's flat spot... it's 8"-9" between his ears. 

:thumb: Arne


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

The video is up. I haven't taken it back down. Here it is again. 
Forest Gump and Ken - stop all the talk. Ken you plan to do something totally different than I did. Go out in your yard and do the test. You refuse because you know I am right. You want to theorize on and on. Let me take you through it again. 
1 - PUt a dot at the bottom on your bale.
2 - Step off 10 yards, 15, 20, 25 and 30.
3 - Shoot a good shot from each distance while keeping the point on the dot. 
4 - measure the distances and plot them. 

If you are shooting a fast arrow the distance between impacts will not be very much. Ken if you have a "Hooter Shooter" that holds the bow then do the test with it but not the test you have said. You don't prove me wrong but conducting a different experiment. Do what I did and tell me if it works. Your experiment is to aim at 10 yards. That is not what I did. I aimed at the established mean gap for my particular setup between 15 - 30 yards which was 24" below the target. Can't you see that the arrow climbs then levels then drops? When it levels it stays flat for a while 15-30 yards. During that period of flight it is at the same relative altitude.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Well summarised Arne, that's what I understood from the video.

There's a similar technique used in FITA field shooting where for a certain sized target, a fixed crawl can be ascertained and used that will keep the arrow in the yellow at all the distances that target is shot at.
Four different target faces, four different crawls, simplifies the distance estimation down to identifying target size.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Sharp

Jimmies point is not about hitting the same freeking spot from 0 to 40 with the same hold - let go of it you sound like a perseverating 5 year old. 

The point is and was that for the core distances that we shoot ie 10 to 25 yards there is very little change in your gap so you can shoot the same basic sight picture and make very small adjustments for yardage. 

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Bigjono - a flat spot of between 17 and 33 yards - LOL - no matter where your line of sight is - there is no way that a 200 fps arrow has a flat spot with less than 1 inch of drop over the course of 16 yards - 17 yards into the flight - you are subconsicously making adjustments and you don't even know it - does anyone really believe this? and then he throws in a stupid comment about world championships - I hate to say this - but since YOU brought it up - I have shot against Jimmy in two world championships and beat him both times, I have competed with Jimmy in two $1000.00 shoot-offs and both times finished higher than him, so I have nothing to be "jealous" about - Jimmy outscored me in the 300 round nationals, but I am certainly not "jealous" of that - I am happy for him - this has nothing to do with scores or competition - it has to do with reality - and the reality is that no matter where your line of sight interacts with the trajectory of an arrow over the course of 0 - 40 yards - there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that hte same sight picture could be used to cover all those distances and still keep the arrow in the 10 ring - if you THINK it is - that is PROOF that you are subconsciously making changes to the sight picture for different distances as needed and you don't even know it - otherwise you would be the worst shot on the planet!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

funny how this is changing - first it was that the same sight picture could be used from 0 - 40 yards and it would still put the arrow in the ten ring - suddenly that has changed - hmmm I rest my case


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

maybe one day sharp will come to grips and admit he's wrong about this... just as he was wrong about 3under being a inferior release style... we can all hope.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

steve morley said:


> WOW that ignore button works just great, saves reading a lot of pointless clutter...


After putting four people on ignore today, these threads actually stop resembling the Jerry Springer Show. Why the powers that be here seem compelled to let this forum continue to degrade is beyond me.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I did that some time back, Jason. Liberating ain't it? It'd work even better if folks wouldn't use the darn "Reply With Quote" button. :^)


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Great stuff Jimmy , keep posting your vid's ...

Some pf us get it and appreciate it .


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

All of which goes to show that, on a given complex issue, both sides can be partly right.

And that makes for a long, long discussion with a substantial amount of vituperative attack.

Must be a better way.

:sad:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

In 2010 at the Trad World, I shot with Str8shtr. In 2011, I shot with Sharp for the first 40 targets and then Jim Powell and Ryan Ramsey the last 20. I spent 2 days shooting side by side with Rick Welch. Jimmy B and Steve M's tourney accomplishments are well known. All of these guys are incredible shooters, but it's not their method that impresses me. It's their mastery of what they do. A method is only as good as the man using it. I know all of that is kinda off topic, but at the end of the day, whether you are trying to hit the mark, or help someone hit it, we are all trying to do the best we can. Speck


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> The video is up. I haven't taken it back down. Here it is again.
> Forest Gump and Ken - stop all the talk. Ken you plan to do something totally different than I did. Go out in your yard and do the test. You refuse because you know I am right. You want to theorize on and on. Let me take you through it again.
> 1 - PUt a dot at the bottom on your bale.
> 2 - Step off 10 yards, 15, 20, 25 and 30.
> ...


Jimmy, I think you call this Point blank range. :thumbs_up


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> I did that some time back, Jason. Liberating ain't it? It'd work even better if folks wouldn't use the darn "Reply With Quote" button. :^)


Hey Jim, would you mind quoting J.Wesbrock for me? 


Sorry J. just blaggarding you.


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## wtpops (Sep 18, 2005)

Every projectile when compared the the shooters line of sight WILL intersect at two points during the rise and fall be it a slow arrow or a 4000 fps bullet or a 10" shell from a destroyer and there WILL be a point where relatively to its plotted rise and fall will flatten out with respect to the rest of the curve, how much or how little depends on the speed. Its not a hard concept to grasp.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Sharp, everything Jimmy says on here you seem to have an issue with so there must be some underlying motive either conscious or subconscious. Do you have his photo on your dart board 
I don't gap at the moment but when I did I used to do it a similar way for North American 3D shoots. My arrow point was the same distance under the kill for every distance from 15-33yds. I never questioned the reasoning it was just that's what my hours on the range lead me to. After watching that video I went out and put it to the test again but this time with tape pen and paper and guess what, it works, you can put a graph to it and plot it. I re did it 3 times and it worked all 3 times.
If it doesn't work then why not go out and prove it, it's just a simple test, it won't kill you.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken....man I just don't get you....there WAS a time that I would try and help you out anytime I could because i felt people were just bashing you whether you were right or wrong...but now it doesn't matter what Jimmy posts you go off the deep end stating that it's all bunk,garbage and whatever else you call it....

For YOUR info my black widow at 41# shooting a 344 grain arrow my I shoot point on at 17 yards all the way out to 31 yards...This is the method I used to shoot All the IBOs this year and the ASAs 

I've known Jimmy 3 years now and if you think he would put anything on here or anywhere else to mislead anyone without first doing the research YOUR CRAZY....

You talk about always shooting my hunting setup and always telling the world you're not going to shoot a different bow for different venues then how do you know what is right or not....those calculators a lot of the times are BS....STU millers calculator tells me my arrow is 15# too stiff but guess what it's the most forgiving arrow I've ever shot.


There's no way you know everything about everything.


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

wtpops said:


> Its not a hard concept to grasp.


Unfortunately it is for some people.

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Speck1 said:


> In 2010 at the Trad World, I shot with Str8shtr. In 2011, I shot with Sharp for the first 40 targets and then Jim Powell and Ryan Ramsey the last 20. I spent 2 days shooting side by side with Rick Welch. Jimmy B and Steve M's tourney accomplishments are well known. All of these guys are incredible shooters, but it's not their method that impresses me. It's their mastery of what they do. A method is only as good as the man using it. I know all of that is kinda off topic, but at the end of the day, whether you are trying to hit the mark, or help someone hit it, we are all trying to do the best we can. Speck


Speck - best post of the whole thread


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

This is ridiculous. I can't understand why someone would want to waste a whole day arguing over anything. I am just reading this as I relax from a day spent fixing up my wife's SUV, shooting arrows, cleaning the garage, etc... I always have better things to do than pick a fight. 

I found Jimmy's video very informative. I believe the basic point is quite simple, that you can tune your individual set up to shoot the gaps however you like, and that it is possible to have a "kill" shot shooting the same gap from 15 to 25 yards, or maybe 10 to 30 yards. 

This is a very easy way for a new archer to quickly become accurate and be successful. AND is a completely different subject from Ballistic Calculators, rifle trajectories, etc....

I had a college roommate that thought he was the best at everything..... he was a pain in the *****.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Okay, enough. How do I ignore?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> Ken....man I just don't get you....there WAS a time that I would try and help you out anytime I could because i felt people were just bashing you whether you were right or wrong...but now it doesn't matter what Jimmy posts you go off the deep end stating that it's all bunk,garbage and whatever else you call it....
> 
> For YOUR info my black widow at 41# shooting a 344 grain arrow my I shoot point on at 17 yards all the way out to 31 yards...This is the method I used to shoot All the IBOs this year and the ASAs
> 
> ...


 eyah.... and my heavy arrers out penetrate my little ones.... :grin:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Okay, enough. How do I ignore?


Left click on username on post, select 'View Profile'. In new page under space for avatar there is a list of options, select 'Add to ignore List' and follow instructions.

Hmm, maybe Jimmy won't see this.................


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Ken....man I just don't get you....there WAS a time that I would try and help you out anytime I could because i felt people were just bashing you whether you were right or wrong...


Just an FYI...I don't know anyone purposely trying to 'bash' sharp whether he was right or wrong.

All I've ever seen is sharp turning it into something personal just about every time someone disagrees with him...and when a few people throw his disrespectful, condensending remarks back at him...he cries foul.

There's no reason why 2 grown men can't share their opinions with each other without one of them first dishing out the rude and disrespectful comments because someone is disagreeing with them.

Ray :shade:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Okay, enough. How do I ignore?


Click on the members profile... ignore option is in there.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

There. Done. I feel better already.


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## huntinpool (May 5, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> like I said - put a sight on your bow and "ride the arc" by using a 10 yard sight for a 40 yard shot - see how well that arc riding works for ya


The sight is the arrow point. If you shoot with compound ers as I do the. U should know that for short shots you have to use your 40-50 yd marks depending how close. For shooting the chrono at 10 feet I use my 45 yd pin and its dead on. 
This was a common sense video put out to help a bunch if people grasp the gapping concept. We now know your capability to understand such concepts. Thank You sir for all the amusing comments on a subject you know nothing about.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Greysides said:


> Left click on username on post, select 'View Profile'. In new page under space for avatar there is a list of options, select 'Add to ignore List' and follow instructions.
> 
> Hmm, maybe Jimmy won't see this.................


Only if he blocks us both. :cheers:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Okay, enough. How do I ignore?


I guess you guys can put me on hold also because Sharp is pretty much right on in this particular argument. All this talk of an arrow crossing your eyeline twice before it hits the target is right , and yes there is an arc to the arrow but all y'all(y'all is singular, all y'all is plural):teeth: are definitely overlooking the obvious. The only place a barebow archer could possibly have the same point on is 0 inches and whatever their point on is, so let's use 40 yds as the point on. Your anchor, eye, and arrow tip form a triangle and the anchor is the lowest point of that triangle so the second your arrow leaves the bow it is rising. To hit the Spot with the shortest shot possible, that would have to be with the arrow tip touching the spot. Move back 12" and put the arrow point on and you will hit high because the arrow is rising. Somewhere between o and 40 yds will be your widest gap and for me it has always been about 15 yards. Shooting a compound, my gap differential was about 1/8" per 5 yards. With a recurve, It is usually about 3/16-1/4" depending on how fast my arrow is going. For those of you who have posted on here that you have the same gap from 10-27Yards or even farther, I don't know what you are looking at but it is not possible without changing anchor, head angle, or some other form change. Not possible. Now there seems to be some people on here who only give credence to people with titles and I hate that but I also hate people giving incorrect information that new shooters can pick up on. I haven't shot my fingers in a long time, and before this year it had been over 30 years without shooting my recurve so Nobody would recognize me in a fingers forum anyway but a list of titles is something I can supply. I hope I have explained my view on this phenomenom so that a few of you can understand it


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Titles and knowledge don't always accompany one another.

itbeso - you have not been rude in any way but you are wrong on this. I didn't say they were exactly the same but they are within a couple of inches for that flat spot. Here's the deal. He can't tell us what the arrow is doing. I both told you what was happening, drew it out, and then gave you a demonstration. He says I had to subconsciously adjust-- 24" adjustment? I plotted the arc of the arrow for you in order to show you what height the arrow was at a given distance. It plotted the normal arch. I'm sorry this isn't becoming clear but just because you don't understand it or because he doesn't want it to be true doesn't make it so. It's simple ballistics. We also teach it at the sniper school.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Blackwolf I totally agree with your above post about 2 grown men....that's 2 grown men as in plural..more than 1...


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Blackwolf I totally agree with your above post about 2 grown men....that's 2 grown men as in plural..more than 1...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

If I have been taking this up correctly the point is that, with a fast arrow and a median gap, over a certain distance range the point of impact will be within the compass of the 10 ring.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy as I posted for Ken....this year my setup I shot point on from 17 yards all the way out to 31 that meant my arrow was flat give or take an inch or two from17 to 30 yards...you seen me shoot this year not that I had a fantastic year but I held my own and I KNOW what my gaps are...better than anyone else I know my gaps...

Dewayne


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Greysides said:


> If I have been taking this up correctly the point is that, with a fast arrow and a median gap, over a certain distance range the point of impact will be within the compass of the 10 ring.
> A more central hit could be aided by aiming at the top of the ring when standing towards the upper distance limit of the range and at the bottom of the ring when standing at the lower extent of the range.


Gentlemen. It is a well known fact that at 280 feet per second, ASA speed limit, that there is a 4 3/4 drop in your arrow if you go from 40 yds to 45 yds using the same sight mark. One of our recurve bows will not even come close to keeping that tight of a gap.Being that the 10 ring for deer is usually about 5 inches, you aren't going to keep many arrow in the ten ring with the same gap and a recurve, even at the short distances.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I resisted doing it for a long time because reading SB's posts is like watching a train wreck in slow mo, terrible but fascinating but enough was enough, I hit ignore.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Like we really care who any of you ignore.

Some of you act like this is a schoolyard where everybody gangs up on one kid.

Grow up.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

I dont see a reason to ignore SBH, seems he has some valid points at times :noidea:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Well, it's clear that he shoots real good, so.......I don't see why he wouldn't be expected to offer some good contributions.

He seems a bit angry, but maybe that's because he's been chipped at so much in the past.

:thumb:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Like anyone cares what a troll like you thinks anyway. It's not people ganging up on one kid it's adults reading about as much negative BS as they feel like putting up with. Some people go out of their way to start arguments it's just the way they are, we'll you should know that after all.




QUOTE=Logos;1065486740]Like we really care who any of you ignore.

Some of you act like this is a schoolyard where everybody gangs up on one kid.

Grow up.[/QUOTE]


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

huntinpool said:


> The sight is the arrow point. If you shoot with compound ers as I do the. U should know that for short shots you have to use your 40-50 yd marks depending how close. For shooting the chrono at 10 feet I use my 45 yd pin and its dead on.
> This was a common sense video put out to help a bunch if people grasp the gapping concept. We now know your capability to understand such concepts. Thank You sir for all the amusing comments on a subject you know nothing about.


I have addressed this several times - I know that you use a 40 yard pin for 5 yard shots - but can you use the same pin for any shot from 0-40 yards - if you can - you are the only one!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabowdog said:


> Jimmy as I posted for Ken....this year my setup I shot point on from 17 yards all the way out to 31 that meant my arrow was flat give or take an inch or two from17 to 30 yards...you seen me shoot this year not that I had a fantastic year but I held my own and I KNOW what my gaps are...better than anyone else I know my gaps...
> 
> Dewayne


If you zeroed in a 214 fps bow at 17 yards (point on) and then shot 31 yards with the same point on - you would have over 17 inches of drop! 









If a compound shooter had a 17 yard pin and shot it 31 yards - do you think he would still be in the ten ring - if you do - ask one of your compound friends to try it and see what happens!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Personally - I am glad that these guys are ignoring me - at least I don't have to spend time addressing them if they are not paying attention to what I am saying - anyone who believes that they can use the exact same sight picture from 0 -40 yards with a 200fps recurve bow - regardless of the two points where the line of sight interacts with the trajectory is flat out wrong - because it is not possible.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Personally - I am glad that these guys are ignoring me - at least I don't have to spend time addressing them if they are not paying attention to what I am saying - anyone who believes that they can use the exact same sight picture from 0 -40 yards with a 200fps recurve bow - regardless of the two points where the line of sight interacts with the trajectory is flat out wrong - because it is not possible.


Ken, I haven't seen a post where anyone claimed that so you are exaggerating, however some have claimed to have the same sight picture from 10-27yards and guess what, it's still not possible.:behindsof


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you zeroed in a 214 fps bow at 17 yards (point on) and then shot 31 yards with the same point on - you would have over 17 inches of drop!
> 
> View attachment 1496723
> 
> ...


Sharp, drop doesn't tell you anything. No one is shooting flat to the terrain. There is a trajectory that offsets drop from the get go. So why do you keep bring it up unless you can point out the offsets of each inch of travel downrange. Until you can show where line of sight intersects with line of departure, and all of it is positive loft counteracting drop, and each inch of arc is nullifying drop till you get back to line of sight downrange. So what are you saying when you keep suggesting using drop... I don't understand.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Ken, I haven't seen a post where anyone claimed that so you are exaggerating, however some have claimed to have the same sight picture from 10-27yards and guess what, it's still not possible.:behindsof


EXACTLY it is not possible - I cannot believe that anyone - let alone so many are arguing that it is! And then they are personally attacking and ignoring me over it - well - ignore all they want - I take that as proof that they know what I am saying is true - you just don't want to admit it!


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Logos said:


> Well, it's clear that he shoots real good, so.......I don't see why he wouldn't be expected to offer some good contributions.
> 
> He seems a bit angry, but maybe that's because he's been chipped at so much in the past.
> 
> :thumb:


You do know that there's always two sides to a story right? Check around to see what all the hullabaloo is all about.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Gentlemen. It is a well known fact that at 280 feet per second, ASA speed limit, that there is a 4 3/4 drop in your arrow if you go from 40 yds to 45 yds using the same sight mark. One of our recurve bows will not even come close to keeping that tight of a gap.Being that the 10 ring for deer is usually about 5 inches, you aren't going to keep many arrow in the ten ring with the same gap and a recurve, even at the short distances.



I can only agree with you here. Having done a fair amount of compound tuning, the walkback was one of my main tuning tricks. It has been a little while but from memory that might be kinda rusty the four inches or so seems about right. I usually shoot one arrow every 10yds and the one thing you can bank on is a definate drop with each arrow forming the line used for tuning. The longer the shot the more the drop. That makes good sense. So if I shot an arrow at 10,one at 20,one at 30 and one at 40 even a three inch drop would be a 9 inch difference. Not exactly what I consider accurate shooting.

I don't remember the statements made in the first video but it had more to do with sight picture than an actual gap. That's what caught my attention in the first place. I'm pretty sure it was represented as being possible to shoot accurately from maybe 10yds all the way out to 40yds using the same sight picture. Can't be absolutely sure. I do know that in the second video I made the grand discovery that one could get minute of deer accuracy somewhere in the mid range of yardage between 10 and 30yds. That's not exactly a newsflash. My best shot distance with my traditional bows is actually 25yds. I try to make most of my cold shots from there so a few yards one way or the other is no great feat shooting instinctively. I can't say for sure if the sight picture is exactly the same or not. Never noticed. The subconcious takes care of that.


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

All of you arguing with Jimmy are missing the whole point... He is putting his arrow point on a spot and the arc of the arrow is doing the work for him. That is why when he moves back increasing yardage from the target, the arrow initially goes up on the target. He is not moving the arrow tip off the "target below the target"... in other words, where the arrow tip is pointing relative to his eye is not the intended point of impact. The analogy to a compound with a pin sight on it does not apply bc you are putting the pin on the intended point of impact, not below it and letting the arc do the work. If what you guys are saying is true, the arrow would, by law, always be dropping as soon as it leaves the bow as would any projectile on planet earth. We all know that isnt true bc anyone who has shot an arrow past 20 yrd has seen it arc sometimes way above target in relation to our eye and fall into the spot intended. Since we know an arrow does that, we also know that the arrow crosses the 'vitals' of the target twice in that trajectory, once a few yards out from the bow and once on the point of impact. 

I dont know how that could be simpler frankly

Dave


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Bang on, it really is that simple isn't it.





uabdave said:


> All of you arguing with Jimmy are missing the whole point... He is putting his arrow point on a spot and the arc of the arrow is doing the work for him. That is why when he moves back increasing yardage from the target, the arrow initially goes up on the target. He is not moving the arrow tip off the "target below the target"... in other words, where the arrow tip is pointing relative to his eye is not the intended point of impact. The analogy to a compound with a pin sight on it does not apply bc you are putting the pin on the intended point of impact, not below it and letting the arc do the work. If what you guys are saying is true, the arrow would, by law, always be dropping as soon as it leaves the bow as would any projectile on planet earth. We all know that isnt true bc anyone who has shot an arrow past 20 yrd has seen it arc sometimes way above target in relation to our eye and fall into the spot intended. Since we know an arrow does that, we also know that the arrow crosses the 'vitals' of the target twice in that trajectory, once a few yards out from the bow and once on the point of impact.
> 
> I dont know how that could be simpler frankly
> 
> Dave


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Thank you Dave. This is why one of the other guys called it "riding the arc." I also said that the ballistics calc won't work because we shoot the arrow in an arc. We do not shoot it level. The noc is lower. I can't scream this any louder...a couple of you are misinterpreting the instruments. GO TO THE TARGET and do what I did and see where the arrow impacts. You will learn that I am not inventing physics. I am aiming the arrow 24" below the center of the 11 ring with my bow / arrow combo and you see right there in the video what is happening. The arrow is hitting the target at a different point in the arc as I move back but the difference in elevation along that arc is only a couple of inches between 15 and 30 yards. 

I did not say 0 - 40. I showed you in the video that at 10 yards it was lower. My flat spot, as evidenced in the video and plotting, was 15 - 30 yards. The faster the arrow the longer that flat spot will be and the slower the bigger it arcs.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

uabdave said:


> All of you arguing with Jimmy are missing the whole point... He is putting his arrow point on a spot and the arc of the arrow is doing the work for him. That is why when he moves back increasing yardage from the target, the arrow initially goes up on the target. He is not moving the arrow tip off the "target below the target"... in other words, where the arrow tip is pointing relative to his eye is not the intended point of impact. The analogy to a compound with a pin sight on it does not apply bc you are putting the pin on the intended point of impact, not below it and letting the arc do the work. If what you guys are saying is true, the arrow would, by law, always be dropping as soon as it leaves the bow as would any projectile on planet earth. We all know that isnt true bc anyone who has shot an arrow past 20 yrd has seen it arc sometimes way above target in relation to our eye and fall into the spot intended. Since we know an arrow does that, we also know that the arrow crosses the 'vitals' of the target twice in that trajectory, once a few yards out from the bow and once on the point of impact.
> 
> I dont know how that could be simpler frankly
> 
> Dave


Dave, this is a friendly retort but just would like to point out that the arrow does not always cross the vital of the target twice. Try shooting 100 yds with a 35# bow and your arrow will start out above the vital and only cross it once, as you say, if youcan hit it. There always seems to be an exception to any "rule". That is why I hope a lot of you will unignore sharp so we can hear more of the exceptions.:cheers:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Ken, I haven't seen a post where anyone claimed that so you are exaggerating, however some have claimed to have the same sight picture from 10-27yards and guess what, it's still not possible.:behindsof



I'm not all that scientific about shooting simple bows and arrows to know for sure and not interested enough to do any hands on testing to find out but, it just might be possible to aim behind a deers foot and get an arrow in the vitals using this criteria. But I feel almost certain that the actual sight picture would change if one was using a method where sight picture was an issue simply because all the angles involved changed to some extent. But in the scenario presented in the video where he is using the point of the arrow to aim at a spot other than where he wanted the arrow to hit (that must be a wierd feeling btw) I just don't see what the 'sight picture' has to do with it. Now if they are preaiming the arrow at that spot and then looking at the sight picture I certainly see how they got minute of deer accuracy.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Dave, this is a friendly retort but just would like to point out that the arrow does not always cross the vital of the target twice. Try shooting 100 yds with a 35# bow and your arrow will start out above the vital and only cross it once, as you say, if youcan hit it. There always seems to be an exception to any "rule". That is why I hope a lot of you will unignore sharp so we can hear more of the exceptions.:cheers:


Disagree. This would depend on your point on.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I'm not all that scientific about shooting simple bows and arrows to know for sure and not interested enough to do any hands on testing to find out but, it just might be possible to aim behind a deers foot and get an arrow in the vitals using this criteria. But I feel almost certain that the actual sight picture would change if one was using a method where sight picture was an issue simply because all the angles involved changed to some extent. But in the scenario presented in the video where he is using the point of the arrow to aim at a spot other than where he wanted the arrow to hit (that must be a wierd feeling btw) I just don't see what the 'sight picture' has to do with it. Now if they are preaiming the arrow at that spot and then looking at the sight picture I certainly see how they got minute of deer accuracy.


tried aiming like that. I just could not get used to it at all


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Thank you Dave. I also said that the ballistics calc won't work because we shoot the arrow in an arc. We do not shoot it level. The noc is lower. I can't scream this any louder...a couple of you are misinterpreting the instruments.
> 
> I did not say 0 - 40.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...that's why I shoot Black Widows because mine don't have 17" of drop...I can shoot my point of arrow in the 10 ring at 17 yards all the way out to 31 I can't explain it...I see the chart...maybe it's because the target is smaller at 31 than it is at 17 maybe it's the angle of the arrow...I don't know!!!! I do know this that's what I do it works fro me....maybe I will just start swearing I'm shooting the instinctive method...then I won't have anything to test because it's all in my sub conscience???


Just sayin


Dewayne


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> Ken...that's why I shoot Black Widows because mine don't have 17" of drop...I can shoot my point of arrow in the 10 ring at 17 yards all the way out to 31 I can't explain it...I see the chart...maybe it's because the target is smaller at 31 than it is at 17 maybe it's the angle of the arrow...I don't know!!!! I do know this that's what I do it works fro me....maybe I will just start swearing I'm shooting the instinctive method...then I won't have anything to test because it's all in my sub conscience???
> 
> 
> Just sayin
> ...


What if you are instinctively "gaping" it?:jeez:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

jkcerda said:


> Disagree. This would depend on your point on.


Well, then lets assume your point on was 30 yards. Still disagree?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, My point on is not 17 it's more like 24...when I shoot at 17 I'm holding max of 2" low and at 30 the target is so small and the arrow is so small I'm somewhere in the 10 ring maybe low maybe in the top of the 10 ring.

Maybe this helps.....


Dewayne


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

uabdave said:


> All of you arguing with Jimmy are missing the whole point... He is putting his arrow point on a spot and the arc of the arrow is doing the work for him. That is why when he moves back increasing yardage from the target, the arrow initially goes up on the target. He is not moving the arrow tip off the "target below the target"... in other words, where the arrow tip is pointing relative to his eye is not the intended point of impact. The analogy to a compound with a pin sight on it does not apply bc you are putting the pin on the intended point of impact, not below it and letting the arc do the work. If what you guys are saying is true, the arrow would, by law, always be dropping as soon as it leaves the bow as would any projectile on planet earth. We all know that isnt true bc anyone who has shot an arrow past 20 yrd has seen it arc sometimes way above target in relation to our eye and fall into the spot intended. Since we know an arrow does that, we also know that the arrow crosses the 'vitals' of the target twice in that trajectory, once a few yards out from the bow and once on the point of impact.
> 
> I dont know how that could be simpler frankly
> 
> Dave




Why is that Dave? Do compound bows not shoot projectiles or do they just act differently when shot from compound bows? I will assume you have done some walk back tuning from 10yds to 50yds or even more and observed the results.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jkcerda said:


> What if you are instinctively "gaping" it?:jeez:


He can't be aiming Totally Instinctively because he already knows he's consciously gaping at some level of conscious awareness...but...he could be aiming by what some call Gapstinctive. 

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

jkcerda said:


> Disagree. This would depend on your point on.


Well, then lets assume your point on was 30 yards. Still disagree?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sorry the above post should have read the target is so small and the arrow is so big......Sorry fingers outran my brain...


Dewayne


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

jkcerda said:


> Disagree. This would depend on your point on.


Can you explain that?


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I think the big disconnect here is that Jimmy is talking about gapping at the target; some here are confusing that for gapping at the bow (which explains the sight pin analogies). It’s a difference of perspective…literally. Sight pins represent gap at the bow. One dot placed above another on a target bale represents gap at the target.

Put two dots on a target bale, one 20” above the other. The gap between those two dots is always going to be 20”, no matter if you’re standing 10 or 40 yards away from the bale. The bale doesn’t care where you are, those two dots are still going to be 20” apart – gap at the target. 

Stand 40 yards from the bale, draw your bow, place the tip of your arrow on the lower dot and see how far above your arrow (measured at the tip of the arrow like a sight pin would be) the upper dot appears. Now step up to 10 yards and do it again. The top dot should appear much higher above the arrow than it did at 40 yards (like a 10-yard pin would be higher up the sight window than a 40-yard pin). That’s gap at the bow.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

I would like to know how many of you except BigJono actually went outside and tested the method that Jimmy posted. For those of you that say it is not accurate if you are just a keyboard warrior and haven't physically taken the time to do this experiment you have no validity to your posts. This has been explained to you by Jimmy and quite a few others, some of us that have actually done it. For the naysayers that just can't grasp the concept, or have poor reading and comprehensive skills, before you post any further negative comments please do everyone a favor. Step away from your computer, actually venture outside and follow the instructions and methodology that Jimmy shared on the video. I think that an amazing thing may happen If you actually do this rather than just stating some opinion, posting graphs, tables, and the like.you may actually learn something. As far as I am concerned anyone that is too lazy to even try this with their own bow and arrows has no dog in this fight anymore. It really is very easy to understand...just try it!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Ken...that's why I shoot Black Widows because mine don't have 17" of drop...I can shoot my point of arrow in the 10 ring at 17 yards all the way out to 31 I can't explain it...I see the chart...maybe it's because the target is smaller at 31 than it is at 17 maybe it's the angle of the arrow...I don't know!!!! I do know this that's what I do it works fro me....maybe I will just start swearing I'm shooting the instinctive method...then I won't have anything to test because it's all in my sub conscience???
> 
> 
> Just sayin
> ...



That would really be a good idea.:wink:
Tomorrow I might zero my sight on my compound target bow at 17 yds and then shoot it from 31 just to check it out. It's 280fps so shouldn't be to big a difference. 14yds should show some difference though. Always has.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Forest if you're so involved with compounds how could you possibly have the experience of traditional equipment...I've got the experience and the awards to prove it.


I know what I do and I know it works for me and my scores,wins,losses are all published for the world to see.


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Old Sarge said:


> I would like to know how many of you except BigJono actually went outside and tested the method that Jimmy posted. For those of you that say it is not accurate if you are just a keyboard warrior and haven't physically taken the time to do this experiment you have no validity to your posts. This has been explained to you by Jimmy and quite a few others, some of us that have actually done it. For the naysayers that just can't grasp the concept, or have poor reading and comprehensive skills, before you post any further negative comments please do everyone a favor. Step away from your computer, actually venture outside and follow the instructions and methodology that Jimmy shared on the video. I think that an amazing thing may happen If you actually do this rather than just stating some opinion, posting graphs, tables, and the like.you may actually learn something. As far as I am concerned anyone that is too lazy to even try this with their own bow and arrows has no dog in this fight anymore. It really is very easy to understand...just try it!


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Old Sarge said:


> I would like to know how many of you except BigJono actually went outside and tested the method that Jimmy posted. For those of you that say it is not accurate if you are just a keyboard warrior and haven't physically taken the time to do this experiment you have no validity to your posts. This has been explained to you by Jimmy and quite a few others, some of us that have actually done it. For the naysayers that just can't grasp the concept, or have poor reading and comprehensive skills, before you post any further negative comments please do everyone a favor. Step away from your computer, actually venture outside and follow the instructions and methodology that Jimmy shared on the video. I think that an amazing thing may happen If you actually do this rather than just stating some opinion, posting graphs, tables, and the like.you may actually learn something. As far as I am concerned anyone that is too lazy to even try this with their own bow and arrows has no dog in this fight anymore. It really is very easy to understand...just try it!



No need,the OP already cleared it up in the second video. He' talking point of aim,not sight picture. He then said you can obtain relatively decent accuracy in a small yardage window. That's no big secret.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Forest, I never said my point on was 17 I said I could shoot point on at 17 my point on is more like 24....sight in your compound at 24 then shoot it at 17 and 30 and see if you can stay in the 10 ring......bet you can....I can and I don't even have a peep sight or a sight.


Not trying to be sarcastic just stating what works for me...

Dewayne


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Forest if you're so involved with compounds how could you possibly have the experience of traditional equipment...I've got the experience and the awards to prove it.
> 
> 
> I know what I do and I know it works for me and my scores,wins,losses are all published for the world to see.
> ...



Where did you get that idea? We all have a past don't we? And most of us probably shot compounds before. FYI they have been around for a long time.
I also said and make no bones about it that I'm not very scientific about my traditional shooting. Just look and shoot.:wink:

And, as I already said,the second video cleared the whole thing up. Relatively decent accuracy in a small window. No big secret. But my money still says the actual sight picture will change. Oh, and I don't have any traditional wins or losses because you have not been to visit yet.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Forest, I never said my point on was 17 I said I could shoot point on at 17 my point on is more like 24....sight in your compound at 24 then shoot it at 17 and 30 and see if you can stay in the 10 ring......bet you can....I can and I don't even have a peep sight or a sight.
> 
> 
> Not trying to be sarcastic just stating what works for me...
> ...



Yep, I will do that. Probably bust an arrow though in that tiny window. I can try with a self bow too since my favorite shot is about 25yds. I have already done that about ten million times and know the sight picture is definately different. I was planning to use the compound because it might be closer to the speed of the widow. And I don't do wimpy arrows in my trad stuff.


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## crossxsticks (Feb 3, 2012)

a ways back on another thread, a respected gap shooter said his gap at 15 and 30 yds was the same and now Jimmy showed that this is true with his set up. . I heard it first and now i seen it done I applicate the info guys something I will try and utilize .


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

No Gump, they act the same way, just like bullets, darts, rocks from a slingshot, etc... you have to watch the arc to get the picture. Compound arrows arc just like one shot out of selfbow, just a lot shorter arc.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

FORESTGUMP said:


> No need,the OP already cleared it up in the second video. He' talking point of aim,not sight picture. He then said you can obtain relatively decent accuracy in a small yardage window. That's no big secret.


Glad you understand and you are correct it is no big secret. I don't think Jimmy ever meant it to be a secret' more of an instructional video for someone who is learning to gap.Something anyone can do and learn their gaps if they want to gap at the target. Most times when I get a new bow I do this then figure out the rest of my system based on those results. I'm in the process of trying Itbeso's method which is gapping at the bow. There is always more than one way to skin a cat and my goal is to find the best way by actually trying different techniques.If they don't work I can always fall back to my old standby. I'm 63 now and have been shooting for 53 years and realize I can always learn something new if I listen, ask questions, and then try it out.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Forest the reason it won't work with your compound is because it will probably only shoot about 280 fps and my widow shoots well over 320 fps.....you need to get a real bow....gees


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Old Sarge said:


> Glad you understand and you are correct it is no big secret. I don't think Jimmy ever meant it to be a secret' more of an instructional video for someone who is learning to gap.Something anyone can do and learn their gaps if they want to gap at the target. Most times when I get a new bow I do this then figure out the rest of my system based on those results. I'm in the process of trying Itbeso's method which is gapping at the bow. There is always more than one way to skin a cat and my goal is to find the best way by actually trying different techniques.If they don't work I can always fall back to my old standby. I'm 63 now and have been shooting for 53 years and realize I can always learn something new if I listen, ask questions, and then try it out.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Forest the reason it won't work with your compound is because it will probably only shoot about 280 fps and my widow shoots well over 320 fps.....you need to get a real bow....gees
> 
> 
> Dewayne



I will,just as soon as I wear this one out. But that could be a long time since it gets a little action about twice a year. The older I get the more primitive I become. You bring that widow on down. I've got some bush arrows I need to try out,but don't forget I will be shooting the primitive way. The old look and shoot. At least you won't have to go back up north feeling guilty if ya beat me.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

vabowdog - I have no doubt in my mind that you think that is what you are doing - I trust you and believe that you are a great guy - my contention is that what is likely happening is that you are making adjustments at a subconscious level - probably in the micro-seconds before you release - you don't even know you are doing it - and there is no possible way to test this - the only way is to put a bow in a machine - or take a guy that shoots a compound with a sight and test it all out.

Here are the ballistics of an arrow travelling 214 fps zeroed in at 24 yards - now it is very unlikely that your Black Widow is shooting a bow that fast - I have owned several black widows and kept them all at their minimum arrow weight of 8 grains per pound of draw and they were all in the low 190's - but here is what happens with a 214 fps arrow - note the drop at 31 yards - if you were point on at 24 and used your point to aim at 31 yards


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here is what would happen with an arrow going 195 fps - which, if you are staying in the warranty of your Widow is what you are likely getting"

note the drop now if you used the point at 31 yards with the point on at 24 yards:


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

itbeso said:


> Well, then lets assume your point on was 30 yards. Still disagree?


yes :kiss:



FORESTGUMP said:


> Can you explain that?


no where near as good as the OP did, IIRC from the original video, the arrow would arc & PLATEAU after a certain distance, meaning that just like the gentlemen above claims that his POA is the same from 17-31 yards, the arrow stays somewhat flat for a certain distance before really dropping, the OP did not intend to claim that the point on was the SAME from 0-40 :nono: 
arrows like bullets ARC, so your sight picture COULD be the same say at 17-25-31 yards like it is from the guy with the Widow.

where Jimmy messed up IMHO is when he showed his graph from 0-40 & forgot to concentrate on the arc area, he only shot 3 arrows IIRC, 15-20-25 those IIRC where the shots taken, his arrows where close enough to each other at THOSE DISTANCES, NOT FROM 0-40 :nono:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

You see the issue here is that there is no flat part of trajectory - the arrow is either going up or it is going down - there is no flat in the trajectory - and yes it is possible that between two distances within the line of sight that one gap could be used - but that window is MUCH smaller than 20 yards or the unbelieveable extreme that Jimmy original used of 40 yards! - it is actually more like +/- four yards to keep the arrow within the 10 ring of a typical 3d target


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Here is what would happen with an arrow going 195 fps - which, if you are staying in the warranty of your Widow is what you are likely getting"
> 
> note the drop now if you used the point at 31 yards with the point on at 24 yards:
> 
> View attachment 1496844


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

jkcerda - it is tested daily by sight shooters - they do not use one sight for a 20 or 40 yard span of distance do they? As I have said now numerous times.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> You see the issue here is that there is no flat part of trajectory - the arrow is either going up or it is going down - there is no flat in the trajectory - and yes it is possible that between two distances within the line of sight that one gap could be used - but that window is MUCH smaller than 20 yards or the unbelieveable extreme that Jimmy original used of 40 yards! - it is actually more like +/- four yards to keep the arrow within the 10 ring of a typical 3d target


he did NOT CLAIM there was a flat part of the trayectory, he stated there would be an area where there would be withing a few INCHES on the same sight window, I also agree with you that it would be nearly impossible to keep it in the 10 ring as Jimmy stated, depending on the speed of the bow of course & the distance shot.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> jkcerda - it is tested daily by sight shooters - they do not use one sight for a 20 or 40 yard span of distance do they? As I have said now numerous times.


I have shot my compound using the 25 yard setting & been close on the 20 & 30 yard targets, then again my bow does 306 FPS with a 363gr arrow :banana::dancing:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Here are the ballistics of an arrow travelling 214 fps zeroed in at 24 yards -


Think about that one for an unsighted shooter looking at his Point On distance....


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

jkcerda - now you are getting it - you know that what is being said here by most of these guys is impossible - just think about it with your much faster and flatter compound arrows


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> jkcerda - now you are getting it - you know that what is being said here by most of these guys is impossible - just think about it with your much faster and flatter compound arrows


:kiss: darling, I understand YOU and I get what Jimmy tried to explain, you are BOTH RIGHT :jeez: BOTH of you are simply pissing in each others cheerios, you are a tad brash/arrogant in some of your statements mainly because you DONT believe in gaping & feel everyone makes subconscious adjustments at the last minute, you are a good shot & have a nice set of legs, but I think you are a tad off in judging everyone being "gapstinctive" shooters.

Jimmys graph may NOT reflect what he was aiming at, for all you know that pin he was aiming at was maing his point on 70 yards, making the plateau of the arc even longer, allowing for the shots being as close as they were when he shot from 15-20-25 yards. :wave:


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

Just keep talking yourself out of reality Sharp. Fact is, you dont listen well at all. Same crap different day with you. You are thinking Point ON and forgetting that he is not talking Point On at all. He is talking pic a point, watch your arrow impact and learn a gap based on that info. If it were only in a Point On situation, you would be right; but you are dead as heck wrong with your assumptions here. Your logic is flawed, bc you are not understanding that Jimmy was talking about riding the arc and finding all the distances where that could be done and safely kill an animal. 

You are thinking like a compound shooter here in that you put the pin on the target and let it eat, change pins for different distances and ignoring what the arrow is doing in between. He is not talking about using the arrow tip as you would a pin sight. I will give you only one concession, that past your point on distance, the arrow is definitely falling as you say it is by your tables shown, but before it does that, it elevates crossing your target vitals twice at every distance between... Frankly dont give a rats arse what you say about that, bc you are wrong. 

Dave


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Can someone tell me what in the world sharp is talking about when he talks about drop in his myriad of graphs and how it relates to gap or any shot actually other than, what does the arc have to overcome?


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> Can someone tell me what in the world sharp is talking about when he talks about drop in his myriad of graphs and how it relates to gap or any shot actually other than, what does the arc have to overcome?


gravity?:noidea:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jkcerda said:


> gravity?:noidea:


Hahahahahaha...... I knew I'd fall into that at some point... :grin:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

jkcerda said:


> gravity?:noidea:



lol, I like the way you think. That was my first thought too and the rat should have seen it coming.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> Can someone tell me what in the world sharp is talking about when he talks about drop in his myriad of graphs and how it relates to gap or any shot actually other than, what does the arc have to overcome?


How about this? The arrow reacts to force from the nock end and is accelerated,rising to some point where the initial energy is depleted. Since the front is heavier than the rear whatcha reckin happens then. You already knew that though.:secret:
I didn't look at the graphs.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> lol, I like the way you think. That was my first thought too and the rat should have seen it coming.


you know... they say... everyone likes a little okole.... :grin:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> you know... they say... everyone likes a little okole.... :grin:


a little okole? if i posted a pic of my ex-wife you'd say some of us like a LOT of okole... i might soak up all the bandwidth here though.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> How about this? The arrow reacts to force from the nock end and is accelerated,rising to some point where the initial energy is depleted. Since the front is heavier than the rear whatcha reckin happens then. You already knew that though.:secret:
> I didn't look at the graphs.


 Sharp keeps bringin up drop regarding this issue of gapping. Not that I know a lick about arrows, but every bullet I've tossed has a drop associated with the time of flight, whether to 25 yard, 50 yards or 500. Drop is meaningless unless you're comparing BC... ballistic coefficients... otherwise its velocity and loft that gets the bullet to the target. I'm thinking arrows are no different. So if you gap... and I'm not pretending to understand this cuz I do it my way... which I'm sure incorporates a version of gap... but notwithstanding, I'm interested in anything ballistic... so...

I'm thinking that a point on gap distance, whether 25 or 40 yards incorporates a loft... aka... arc. My impression is that if your "point on" or zero range is say 40 yards, there are three other points along that trajectory that correspond to the target diameter... maybe 4 if you accept a 3 yard target maybe... but as the arrow leaves the riser it is climbing and passes through line of sight.. it also has on its launch passed through the lower limit of the target most likely as well... but then along the route it passes through the top point of the bull, passes back through it again and then zero. Beyond the target it continues to drop and will pass the bottom of the bull a few yards past zero. 

This I know is true... so when gapping... if you know your gap and distances.... as the arrow rises above the target bull assuming a steep trajectory with one of my 1000 grain arrows say, If I know the curve... I can adjust my point of aim lower as the target closes and rises as the target moves away. There is going to be a distance at the midpoint of the arc where you would have to lower the point of aim and then raise it again as you move closer or further away .... Is this not correct?

Afterthoughts....if the target center was your goal, and not a spread between top of the bull and the bottom of the bull, I'm thinking you'd have to lower your poing of aim as the target closes and you'd have to raise it as it recedes.... Si?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grapplemonkey said:


> a little okole? if i posted a pic of my ex-wife you'd say some of us like a LOT of okole... i might soak up all the bandwidth here though.


hehe... kolohe... :grin:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

jkcerda said:


> I dont see a reason to ignore SBH, seems he has some valid points at times :noidea:


I totally agree he is a great shot and has a lot to offer with some very valid points but its not about what he says but more about how he says it, in any attempt to disprove anybody elses post it appears to me he is also atempting to make them stupid in the process, this is the reason I hit the ignore button.

Although other posters dont agree with what is being said I have not ignored them because theyre comments are civil, I feel its ok not to agree but it should be done with respect for the other persons opinion.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ok Ive just did a quick experiment using a compass (for measuring map/chart distances), I measused the the two gap marks on the boss at 30yards with arm extended fully and walked forward every 5 yards to see what happens, so what seems to be happening with the arrow tip is as we move backwards the relationship between the gap and spot is actually decreasing but visually from our perspective it looks like were putting it on the same point.

If you Gap at the arrow and not the target as the video showed you would need to adjust the gap for every distance.

Hope this helps


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Here maybe this will help, but you have to actually listen to what I am saying. Set the hooter shooter up to aim at a dot at 30 yards. Vice that thing down so it can't move. Shoot an arrow at the dot. Now don't move the bow or the aim point but move the target 5 yards closer to you. The bow is still aiming at the exact same point. Your impact point will now move just slightly along that arc but not much for a middle distance. That is all we are doing.

I know that you can visualize the arc of an arrow. FACT
I know that you realize that a very fast arrow has a flatter trajectory. FACT
Now how can you not realize that along that trajectory line you can put a target and it would hit it in the same spot for a little section...in my case 15-30 yards?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, I don't care about what your wheely friends can do....my anchor is different,my arrow placement in relation to my eye is totally my own....I don't care about your chart I know what works for me....I don't see how you have got such a big dog in this fight when you don't use the arrow for anything nor do you see it when you draw your bow.


Dewayne


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Here maybe this will help, but you have to actually listen to what I am saying.


There in lies the issue. 

Matt


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

itbeso said:


> > Originally Posted by Greysides
> > If I have been taking this up correctly the point is that, with a fast arrow and a median gap, over a certain distance range the point of impact will be within the compass of the 10 ring.
> > *A more central hit could be aided by aiming at the top of the ring when standing towards the upper distance limit of the range and at the bottom of the ring when standing at the lower extent of the range.*


Boy, are you quick. I deleted that bit in bold virtually as soon as I posted it!

It's incorrect and it took me a moment to realise why. It would work at the end of arc not in the middle of the arc. I was extrapolating from stringwalking and it doesn't extrapolate.
Sorry to go back so far in the thread but I don't want anyone who may have seen it to be misled.

Carry on gents.....


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

That is exactly what I will do and I can tell what will happen before I even do it - because all i have to do is plug my arow information into the ballistic calculator - this is simple science based on the speed and weight of the arrow - I putmy arrow information in - When I put my bow in the hooter shooter and zero it in at 30 yards and then move the target to 25 yards - leaving the bow in the machine set for 30 I will impact over 5 inches low - and the chart shows just how much lower I will get as I get closer:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have to say that looking at that chart I do see a span of about 15 yards that could be acceptable - so depending on where you are zeroed in you could have a span of about 15 yards that would allow the same sight picture - but not 40 yards - and you said in the original video that from 0-40 yards the same sight picture could be used and it cannot - nor can grants 0 - 30 yards - there is no way to keep the arrow in the 10 spot over that great of a span of distance with the same sight picture- no matter where you line of sight intersects the flight path - no matter where you "zero" in - you are not going to cover a 40 yard or 30 yard span of distance - it is impossible


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I tell ya what Jimmy - you post exactly what you want me to test with the hooter shooter- I have use of one at my local range and can shoot out to around 35 yards - not sure the exact yardage - the shooting line is 30 yards - but it is behind the shooting line a few yards in the shop part. My bow is, what I consider a fast bow - I think the last time I chronographed it with the slightly longer arrows and pin nocks and adapters that I am now using I am getting 209 fps. After bow season - either the first week in January or when I fill my freezer and get a nice buck - more likely the end of January - I will set it all up, film it, and have the shop owner as a witness that no tampering or editing was done. Just let me know what to do - I will set it at 30 yards and then move the target back in 5 yard increments to show what happens - what else would you like me to test?


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)




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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

over the distance of 10-30 yards you could not keep the arrow in the 10 ring - maybe 10-25 - and that would be pushing it depending on arrow speed and where the point on - or zero distance is

oh -and what started this whole thing with me was the claim that you could use the same sight picture from 0-40 yards - which - as I said - is ridiculous - glad you clarrified it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

funny - all this debate could have ended if when I made this first statement from my first post: 

_"This is ridiculous - to claim that the same sight picture can be used for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - even with an arrow going 210 fps"_

you had just said that you misspoke and meant "relatively" - which is a very broad and "relative" term that could allow for just about anything.

Odd - all the personal attacks that the sheep who are ignoring me because I did not and do not believe that the same sight picture can be used from 0-40 yards - I wonder if I will get an apology - don't worry - I am not holding my breath


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

You mean folks are supposed to apologize because they did not explain to you what an archer should already know - that an arc has no, zero, points on the same horizontal plane (except two intersections) - hence, it's an arc?  All points along the path are "relative", always have been for all shooters.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I am sorry Ken this is all my fault. I clearly can not communicate effectively. The entire thing is on me.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, I'm not going to apologize but you can hold your breath if you want...LOL......once again I dont care what is posted by the graphs and charts...I know EXACTLY what I'm doing with my point and that is from 17- 30 +- I'm using the tip of the arrow to impact where I want....the 10 ring is about 5" so at 17 I'm holding in the bottom of the 10 ring at 30 I'm holding closer to the top but TRUST me in not holding 10.6" or whatever that stupid graph showed....I know....I'm not guessing...no sub conscience mumbo jumbo BS...I know,God knows I spend enough time in my backyard figuring it out.


Dewayne


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

I feel that Jimmys' explanation gives the impression that "close" is good enough, and for a lot of archers, maybe it is, but I don't think Jimmy or Dwayne Or Matt or ken Or Ray or anyone who is truly competitive would buy into that line of thinking. With that said, I like the mutual conciliatory tone in the last few posts.ccasion15:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Dewayne - the video is 100% correct. Your shooting is 100% correct. Ken just admitted above that the 10 pages of argument was over me not using the word relative. It was all over semantics and the omission of one word. All still stands true.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy, great...now I can sleep tonight but my lack of sleep last night is ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!!

Dewayne


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

No apology and the ignore button stays on, its not so much what was said but how it was said, it was just plain rude towards Jimmy.

When he starts to show some respect for other peoples (opposing) opinions, Ill start listening to what he has to say.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I am sorry Ken this is all my fault. I clearly can not communicate effectively. The entire thing is on me.


Jimmy, it's not your fault for assuming prior understanding of some things on the part of your listeners. Listen, it's not but a few months ago that Sharp was in here arguing that an instinctive archer benefited by an arrow having a singular trajectory. IOW, he had read in an instinctive archery book that all one had to do was to memorize the trajectory and it was good for all distances. When explained to him that as you move back and elevation is changed to accommodate, the trajectory changes, i.e., no singular trajectory holds for all distances, we were all full of it.

In the beginning of this thread, he was using a horizontal to earth elevation and giving us 50" drops. He's since read some and figured somewhat how to use the calculator, which now means he should have learned his previous knowledge on the singular trajectory was way wrong. No apologizes needed for that, from us or the author of his book  So, no, you were not at fault for assuming any archer would know that all points along the arc are not and can never be the same same except at line of sight intersections. What's at fault is a premature interjection before someone understood what was being demonstrated.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - a guy says that the same sight picture can be used from 0-40 yards - I say that is ridiculous - that there has to be a different sight picture for a span of that much distances - and it is implied that I am an idiot, don't understand the flight of the arrow, know nothing about archery, am a horrible person, worthy of ignore (btw - the guys that said they are ignoring me are still reading my posts - odd - ain't it), etc...

Jimmy revises his video several times during this discussion and then comes out and says that he meant it was only a "RELATIVE" sight picture - and now he is going to say that I was just arguing the choice of words? 

GIVE ME A BREAK! - for a new archer to think that he can use the same sight picture for a 40 yard span of distance is ABSURD - and for days this was allowed - never once did Jimmy say - that he meant only a "relative" sight picture - relative to what? OBVIOUSLY THE DISTANCES - which is EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING!

This is hysterical - you guys have fun patting yourselves on the back


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

and then Sanford now is saying that I don't understand trajectory - when I tried to explain it using the arrow drop - that I am the one who does not realize that there is no flat part of the trajectory - wow - they are now twisting the errors that Jimmy was promoting and putting them on me - LOL


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Am I missing something here?

Are we not talking about what happens between 0 and a point on distance?

Use 1 pin set on a compound set at 40 for an example, we WILL NOT shoot past 40 !
Use the same pin, shoot at 10,20,30, 40 plot those arrow impacts on the target, the trajectory gap will be plain as day. arrow will rise, and then hit the target. 
Most of the faster bows, COULD be flat enough that the section in the center of the Gap plane will not show the "flatter " section that occurs.

That is also how we could see that a very small gap between 20-30 could be accomplished so, in fact the sight picture could be very small, as Jimmy was trying to explain.
Same principal as a rifles maximum effective distance is.At some point we are point on, everything in between muzzle and that , hold on and its a killing shot?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Sharp, I will admit, you have learned a bit about trajectory since your argument a few months ago:



> I am lost in this - where is the confusion here?? - the arrow if it is travelling the same speed - which it is when the same arrow is shot from the same bow at the same draw - *has the same trajectory no matter what the distance you shoot it - it is just a matter of where you put the target and stop the arrow in that trajectory* - and we hold the bow - either consciously or subconsciously at different angles based on where we want the arrow to stop in its flight path or trajectory.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Jimmy, Please keep posting your videos. I personally really enjoy them and have learned a lot by watching. Most people are wise enough to understand the intent and not nit pick a little detail to death, turning an informative post into an arguement.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> That is exactly what I will do and I can tell what will happen before I even do it - because all i have to do is plug my arow information into the ballistic calculator - this is simple science based on the speed and weight of the arrow - I putmy arrow information in - When I put my bow in the hooter shooter and zero it in at 30 yards and then move the target to 25 yards - leaving the bow in the machine set for 30 *I will impact over 5 inches low* - and the chart shows just how much lower I will get as I get closer:
> 
> View attachment 1496967
> View attachment 1496967





sharpbroadhead said:


> and then Sanford now is saying that I don't understand trajectory - when I tried to explain it using the arrow drop - that I am the one who does not realize that there is no flat part of the trajectory - wow - they are now twisting the errors that Jimmy was promoting and putting them on me - LOL


well, look at YOUR chart & your POST .
if the hooter shooter shooting from your hoover is hitting at 30 yards, how the  will the arrow be 5" BELOW when you move CLOSER TO 25 YARDS? is the arrows arc from down under? :noidea:

wait, did you MEAN something other than what you POSTED? your own chart shows +5.1" ABOVE


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> No apology and the ignore button stays on, its not so much what was said but how it was said, it was just plain rude towards Jimmy.
> 
> When he starts to show some respect for other peoples (opposing) opinions, Ill start listening to what he has to say.


:thumbs_up

I don't mind reading or participating in a disagreement and discussing the different views and opinions...especially when some facts are involved. I just can't stand it when someone STARTS being disrespectful just because someone disagrees with them.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> That is exactly what I will do and I can tell what will happen before I even do it - because all i have to do is plug my arow information into the ballistic calculator - this is simple science based on the speed and weight of the arrow - I putmy arrow information in - *When I put my bow in the hooter shooter and zero it in at 30 yards and then move the target to 25 yards - leaving the bow in the machine set for 30 I will impact over 5 inches low *- and the chart shows just how much lower I will get as I get closer:


There is no way in Gods Green Earth is this going to happen. None whatsoever, evermore... nada, imposibla, impossible... not a chance... nine... nicht, nixed.... noway... nohow...

Not going to happen Sharp... unless you are saying that your hooter machine... is missin one of its hooters, that it is going to take 30 yards for your arrow to come to line of sight on a rise. Not going to happen in a world of gravity... your arrow when sighted in at 30 yards, is already taking into account an arrow traveling ABOVE line of sight/departure. Even an ignoramous such as myself knows this... and you are AGAIN BRINGING TO FOR MY QUESTION... what in the world are you doing with those drop tables... they are MEANINGLESS... you need a trajectory table... these things ARC... Sharp... and I've got some money to spend on this one....

For the record... your arrow in the forgoing example.. in order to zero at thirty.. is on a DOWNWARD trajectory from midpoint and will impact HIGH on the target... and it will in my estimation be nowhere near 5" high either... but it will be *high.*


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

steve morley said:


> No apology and the ignore button stays on, its not so much what was said but how it was said, it was just plain rude towards Jimmy.
> 
> When he starts to show some respect for other peoples (opposing) opinions, Ill start listening to what he has to say.


Very well put.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> There is no way in Gods Green Earth is this going to happen. None whatsoever, evermore... nada, imposibla, impossible... not a chance... nine... nicht, nixed.... noway... nohow...
> 
> Not going to happen Sharp... unless you are saying that your hooter machine... is missin one of its hooters, that it is going to take 30 yards for your arrow to come to line of sight on a rise. Not going to happen in a world of gravity... your arrow when sighted in at 30 yards, is already taking into account an arrow traveling ABOVE line of sight/departure. Even an ignoramous such as myself knows this... and you are AGAIN BRINGING TO FOR MY QUESTION... what in the world are you doing with those drop tables... they are MEANINGLESS... you need a trajectory table... these things ARC... Sharp... and I've got some money to spend on this one....
> 
> For the record... your arrow in the forgoing example.. in order to zero at thirty.. is on a DOWNWARD trajectory from midpoint and will impact HIGH on the target... and it will in my estimation be nowhere near 5" high either... but it will be *high.*


WHAT if we spray the arrows with phase inhibitor? the red kind :amen:


you copied my post 284 :angry:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> There is no way in Gods Green Earth is this going to happen. None whatsoever, evermore... nada, imposibla, impossible... not a chance... nine... nicht, nixed.... noway... nohow...
> 
> Not going to happen Sharp... unless you are saying that your hooter machine... is missin one of its hooters, that it is going to take 30 yards for your arrow to come to line of sight on a rise. Not going to happen in a world of gravity... your arrow when sighted in at 30 yards, is already taking into account an arrow traveling ABOVE line of sight/departure. Even an ignoramous such as myself knows this... and you are AGAIN BRINGING TO FOR MY QUESTION... what in the world are you doing with those drop tables... they are MEANINGLESS... you need a trajectory table... these things ARC... Sharp... and I've got some money to spend on this one....
> 
> For the record... your arrow in the forgoing example.. in order to zero at thirty.. is on a DOWNWARD trajectory from midpoint and will impact HIGH on the target... and it will in my estimation be nowhere near 5" high either... but it will be *high.*


C'mon Rat, it is obvious that Sharp misspoke so cut some slack. By the same token, Ken, Give some slack when others misspeak


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Here maybe this will help, but you have to actually listen to what I am saying. Set the hooter shooter up to aim at a dot at 30 yards. Vice that thing down so it can't move. Shoot an arrow at the dot. Now don't move the bow or the aim point but move the target 5 yards closer to you. The bow is still aiming at the exact same point. Your impact point will now move just slightly along that arc but not much for a middle distance. That is all we are doing.
> 
> I know that you can visualize the arc of an arrow. FACT
> I know that you realize that a very fast arrow has a flatter trajectory. FACT
> Now how can you not realize that along that trajectory line you can put a target and it would hit it in the same spot for a little section...in my case 15-30 yards?




SAME SPOT? Not true,but that is the problem with the whole video. Generalizations,relative terms. There are two in the last sentence of this post. These things are viewed differently by different people. Same spot could very well mean arrows trying to get in the same hole. That to me is the 'same spot'. A little section? How wide is a little section? I do understand your point now and what you were trying to show. But to the best of my memory the first video represented something else. Otherwise I don't think I would have paid much attention to begin with.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

itbeso said:


> C'mon Rat, it is obvious that Sharp misspoke so cut some slack. By the same token, Ken, Give some slack when others misspeak


 Are you kidding me? I've been asking for 3 pages about these drop tables of his and no one seems to care, understand, have a clue, whatever as to what either I'm talking about or sharp is talking about or both. So if he is going to "misspeak" and if we all are sooooooo concerned about the "newbies" gettting proper and adequate information here, you'd think one person here would have some inkling (other than juan... and I'll deal with him later....:grin gravity... sheeeeeshhh...

But.... slack... what you really mean is cut the rope he's hanging himself with, isn't it... an act of God's Charity.... yes I suppose you're right...l :grin:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jkcerda said:


> WHAT if we spray the arrows with phase inhibitor? the red kind :amen:
> 
> 
> you copied my post 284 :angry:


 Did he or did he not say them things? Be grateful that i actually read your posts... :grin:


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

rattus58 said:


> Did he or did he not say them things? Be grateful that i actually read your posts... :grin:


:kiss: that is why I posted it, he messed up :kiss:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jkcerda said:


> :kiss: that is why I posted it, he messed up :kiss:


And that is why I read your posts... :grin: to stay current on events... :grin:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> SAME SPOT? Not true,but that is the problem with the whole video. Generalizations,relative terms. There are two in the last sentence of this post. These things are viewed differently by different people. Same spot could very well mean arrows trying to get in the same hole. That to me is the 'same spot'. A little section? How wide is a little section? I do understand your point now and what you were trying to show. But to the best of my memory the first video represented something else. Otherwise I don't think I would have paid much attention to begin with.


Well, it WOULD hit the same spot.......for about three inches of its flight.

But you're right. Words are used sloppily and trouble follows.

Perhaps when one is making a video to "teach" others, one should take a little more time and choose words slowly and carefully rather than ad libbing. Write a script!!! And have a discernible message.

You know, the little things.

:wink:

In fact, I would further suggest that anybody who makes a video should have some really groundbreaking new info to share. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of making a video?


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

ForrestGUmp - look I presented a video to try and help people. To keep an arrow in the 10 ring is a feat for most trad shooters period. You watched, I presume, a video in which I aimed at the same point at 15, 17, 20, 23, 25, and 30 yards. There were 2 x 11s, 3 x 10s, and an 8. The arrows moved, as depicted in the plotted graph, 3.5" of impact difference. That is very acceptable for a trad shooter. Most folks would kill for that. So if you are shooting a rifle the same spot matters, but with a trad bow hardly anyone on the planet can shoot the "same spot" from the same point at the same range etc. Yes, I was general in the comment. I have never received so much grief for trying to help people. There are many lessons to be learned here. 

A lot of 3D shooters fret over yardage. A point I make and demonstrate to people I help, using this example, is that if you shoot a fast arrow you don't have to worry so much. So you miss the yardage by 3 yards. Who cares? If you shoot a good shot and it's between 15-30 yards in my scenario you are still in the 10 ring. I demonstrated that for you, but if you guys want to argue over the arrow moving an inch just to disagree then so be it. 

There was a day that guys went off and figured out how to shoot more accurately and would not tell anyone anything for fear of others getting better. I went on a crusade to try and share everything I've learned and people argue. Those who oppose any form of aiming or a system want to argue because they can't share their method. All they can say is to get your form so that it is repeatable an then shoot a lot. Burn a hole in the target and turn the shot over to your subconscious. I am trying to use the science to show you how to improve confidence and set your rig up to shoot better. That's all. Take it or leave it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> ForrestGUmp - look I presented a video to try and help people. To keep an arrow in the 10 ring is a feat for most trad shooters period. You watched, I presume, a video in which I aimed at the same point at 15, 17, 20, 23, 25, and 30 yards. There were 2 x 11s, 3 x 10s, and an 8. The arrows moved, as depicted in the plotted graph, 3.5" of impact difference. That is very acceptable for a trad shooter. Most folks would kill for that. So if you are shooting a rifle the same spot matters, but with a trad bow hardly anyone on the planet can shoot the "same spot" from the same point at the same range etc. Yes, I was general in the comment. I have never received so much grief for trying to help people. There are many lessons to be learned here.
> 
> A lot of 3D shooters fret over yardage. A point I make and demonstrate to people I help, using this example, is that if you shoot a fast arrow you don't have to worry so much. So you miss the yardage by 3 yards. Who cares? If you shoot a good shot and it's between 15-30 yards in my scenario you are still in the 10 ring. I demonstrated that for you, but if you guys want to argue over the arrow moving an inch just to disagree then so be it.
> 
> There was a day that guys went off and figured out how to shoot more accurately and would not tell anyone anything for fear of others getting better. I went on a crusade to try and share everything I've learned and people argue. Those who oppose any form of aiming or a system want to argue because they can't share their method. All they can say is to get your form so that it is repeatable an then shoot a lot. Burn a hole in the target and turn the shot over to your subconscious. I am trying to use the science to show you how to improve confidence and set your rig up to shoot better. That's all. Take it or leave it.




:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> ForrestGUmp - look I presented a video to try and help people. To keep an arrow in the 10 ring is a feat for most trad shooters period. You watched, I presume, a video in which I aimed at the same point at 15, 17, 20, 23, 25, and 30 yards. There were 2 x 11s, 3 x 10s, and an 8. The arrows moved, as depicted in the plotted graph, 3.5" of impact difference. That is very acceptable for a trad shooter. Most folks would kill for that. So if you are shooting a rifle the same spot matters, but with a trad bow hardly anyone on the planet can shoot the "same spot" from the same point at the same range etc. Yes, I was general in the comment. I have never received so much grief for trying to help people. There are many lessons to be learned here.
> 
> A lot of 3D shooters fret over yardage. A point I make and demonstrate to people I help, using this example, is that if you shoot a fast arrow you don't have to worry so much. So you miss the yardage by 3 yards. Who cares? If you shoot a good shot and it's between 15-30 yards in my scenario you are still in the 10 ring. I demonstrated that for you, but if you guys want to argue over the arrow moving an inch just to disagree then so be it.
> 
> There was a day that guys went off and figured out how to shoot more accurately and would not tell anyone anything for fear of others getting better. I went on a crusade to try and share everything I've learned and people argue. Those who oppose any form of aiming or a system want to argue because they can't share their method. All they can say is to get your form so that it is repeatable an then shoot a lot. Burn a hole in the target and turn the shot over to your subconscious. I am trying to use the science to show you how to improve confidence and set your rig up to shoot better. That's all. Take it or leave it.


Isn't keeping it in the 10 ring keeping the arrow in a defined tube of opportunity along its trajectory? Hasn't that and isn't that also what has more correctly called point blank range?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy, awesome post....I too have learned a lot about this whole 10 pages of bashing each other......it's funny how 98% of the time when theres a argument to this level the same"one" is always the administrator......I think it s time to find that ignore button everyone keeps talking about.....life would have to be much better..


Dewayne


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

:whoo:

And Information is valuable to those that can use it or want to..


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## jacibo (Aug 8, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> funny - all this debate could have ended if when I made this first statement from my first post:
> 
> _"This is ridiculous - to claim that the same sight picture can be used for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - even with an arrow going 210 fps"_


Ridiculous! Bovine excrement!


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> ForrestGUmp - look I presented a video to try and help people. To keep an arrow in the 10 ring is a feat for most trad shooters period. You watched, I presume, a video in which I aimed at the same point at 15, 17, 20, 23, 25, and 30 yards. There were 2 x 11s, 3 x 10s, and an 8. The arrows moved, as depicted in the plotted graph, 3.5" of impact difference. That is very acceptable for a trad shooter. Most folks would kill for that. So if you are shooting a rifle the same spot matters, but with a trad bow hardly anyone on the planet can shoot the "same spot" from the same point at the same range etc. Yes, I was general in the comment. I have never received so much grief for trying to help people. There are many lessons to be learned here.
> 
> A lot of 3D shooters fret over yardage. A point I make and demonstrate to people I help, using this example, is that if you shoot a fast arrow you don't have to worry so much. So you miss the yardage by 3 yards. Who cares? If you shoot a good shot and it's between 15-30 yards in my scenario you are still in the 10 ring. I demonstrated that for you, but if you guys want to argue over the arrow moving an inch just to disagree then so be it.
> 
> There was a day that guys went off and figured out how to shoot more accurately and would not tell anyone anything for fear of others getting better. I went on a crusade to try and share everything I've learned and people argue. Those who oppose any form of aiming or a system want to argue because they can't share their method. All they can say is to get your form so that it is repeatable an then shoot a lot. Burn a hole in the target and turn the shot over to your subconscious. I am trying to use the science to show you how to improve confidence and set your rig up to shoot better. That's all. Take it or leave it.


:thumb:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rattus - that was a typo - obviouly it would be over five inches high - as the graph that I posted shows - but you wee - when I misspeak - and someone points it out - I acknoweldge it immediately - it don't let nine pages of debate go on, don't go back and revise things I said, and then after all of that - come out and say - oh- i misspoke.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> rattus - that was a typo - obviouly it would be over five inches high - as the graph that I posted shows - but you wee - when I misspeak - and someone points it out - I acknoweldge it immediately - it don't let nine pages of debate go on, don't go back and revise things I said, and then after all of that - come out and say - oh- i misspoke.


Of course I wee when you mispeak... you do it all the time as gospel... you didn't address my request to you as to the relevance of your drop tables eitehr... so the more you ignore me, the more I feel you just can't get into legitimate debate... and I didn't see the graph you posted... i stole this from juan... as you obviously can see... and when combined with the drop tables you provide as evidence of trajectory... simple folk draw simple conclusion... so are you ready to discuss your drop tables?

And again.... it is not going to be *obviously over 5" high either....* 5" OF DROP IN 5 YARDS is not 5" in an arc. The arc compensates negatively to drop... that would be like a double negative... you know... and is a positive position above line of sight/departure from whenst drop is measured.


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

I thought that the sight picture for a truly instinctive shooter was always the same?
Just focus on the spot they want to hit and walllaaaa....

How would they know what my sight picture was when I am shooting GAP?
Things that make you go ...... huuummmmmm?

:mg:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

The most striking thing about this little (eleven page) argument is that it stems from a video that had as its basic message:

You can make a choice between a fast bow with a flat trajectory for easier aiming or a slow bow with a rainbow trajectory for MUCH more difficult aiming.

Not exactly HEADLINE news.

Then, the rather obvious basic message was forgotten in nitpicking about a few inches of rise or fall in the arrow and a quick escalation of attacks on the main critic.

Strike you as much ado about nothing?

:noidea:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - yea - a 9 page debate and a 20 minute video to say that a faster flatter shooting arrow will be more forgiving of errors in distances judgement - oh - wait - when I said that - it turned into a 9 page debate and I had several guys telling me I was nuts to claim that a faster flatter arrow would be more forgiving and produce better scores when shooting at unknown distances - guess it is not what you say - but who you are


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Well, that's life on the forum.

:noidea:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Logos said:


> You can make a choice between a fast bow with a flat trajectory for easier aiming or a slow bow with a rainbow trajectory for MUCH more difficult aiming.


Is that all you really got out of Jimmy's video? Serious question here.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - yea - a 9 page debate and a 20 minute video to say that a faster flatter shooting arrow will be more forgiving of errors in distances judgement - oh - wait - when I said that - it turned into a 9 page debate and I had several guys telling me I was nuts to claim that a faster flatter arrow would be more forgiving and produce better scores when shooting at unknown distances - guess it is not what you say - but who you are


I remember you saying 3under was a inferior release compared to split finger.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - yea - a 9 page debate and a 20 minute video to say that a faster flatter shooting arrow will be more forgiving of errors in distances judgement - oh - wait - when I said that - it turned into a 9 page debate and I had several guys telling me I was nuts to claim that a faster flatter arrow would be more forgiving and produce better scores when shooting at unknown distances - guess it is not what you say - but who you are


Care to debate your drop tables sharp... and your obviously 5" high remark?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - yea - a 9 page debate and a 20 minute video to say that a faster flatter shooting arrow will be more forgiving of errors in distances judgement - oh - wait - when I said that - it turned into a 9 page debate and I had several guys telling me I was nuts to claim that a faster flatter arrow would be more forgiving and produce better scores when shooting at unknown distances - guess it is not what you say - but who you are


yes... and again... you failed to prove, if I remember, where faster was more accurate... and if I understand your position, faster, being more forgiving, encourages less attention to accuracy... do you feel differently?


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Quote Originally Posted by Logos 


> *
> You can make a choice between a fast bow with a flat trajectory for easier aiming or a slow bow with a rainbow trajectory for MUCH more difficult aiming.*





> Is that all you really got out of Jimmy's video? Serious question here.


Yes. 

Serious answer here.

It seemed like information going in search of a question. Or somebody who woke up and said, "Hmmmmm......I feel like making a video today."

:amen:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

You know science says it is impossible for the bumble bee to fly yet it does, Im able to hold the same gap from 15 to 30 yards and still hit the spot on an IFAA Field course, I have done this for many years and would appreciate that people just take my word that this is what Im able to do even if your charts/science say otherwise. Why would anybody lie about such a thing anyway.


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

Logos said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Logos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dare say you didnt get what Jimmy was trying to explain, that was not it.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

steve morley said:


> You know science says it is impossible for the bumble bee to fly yet it does, Im able to hold the same gap from 15 to 30 yards and still hit the spot on an IFAA Field course, I have done this for many years and would appreciate that people just take my word that this is what Im able to do even if your charts/science say otherwise. Why would anybody lie about such a thing anyway.


Actually that's not accurate... bumble bees just have very fast wings.... :grin:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

jkcerda said:


> I dare say you didnt get what Jimmy was trying to explain, that was not it.


I highly doubt that what he's saying is true... for it were true then he would not have no merit to him arguing his or OSB's points.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

steve morley said:


> You know science says it is impossible for the bumble bee to fly yet it does, Im able to hold the same gap from 15 to 30 yards and still hit the spot on an IFAA Field course, I have done this for many years and would appreciate that people just take my word that this is what Im able to do even if your charts/science say otherwise. Why would anybody lie about such a thing anyway.


I don't think a single person here thinks it's a lie.

It's just that it's so difficult for people to explain what they see when they're aiming......and then some say they don't know what they're seeing because a demon took control of the process at the last second.

:lol:

It's just a topic that will never be settled one way or the other.

:amen:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> You know science says it is impossible for the bumble bee to fly yet it does...


I think that's pigs.

:thumb:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

jkcerda said:


> I dare say you didnt get what Jimmy was trying to explain, that was not it.


You mean "failing to explain," right?

:lol:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Whatcha want to bet that Sharps point on is about 35 - 40 yards sure looks like that from the pics I have seen - high anchor and all. If so his gaps are roughly the same from 15-25 it is only a 10 yard spread - which he agrees is possible - but, here is the rub those 10 yards encompass 90% of your shots in your typical trad 3D shoot so the argument could be made that he shoots the same site picture for the majority of his 3d shots.

Things that make you go HUMMMMM

Matt


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

Logos said:


> You mean "failing to explain," right?
> 
> :lol:


nope, he TRIED to explain it, it was NOT that clear, I agree with that part. :wave:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Whatcha want to bet that Sharps point on is about 35 - 40 yards sure looks like that from the pics I have seen - high anchor and all. If so his gaps are roughly the same from 15-25 it is only a 10 yard spread - which he agrees is possible - but, here is the rub those 10 yards encompass 90% of your shots in your typical trad 3D shoot so the argument could be made that he shoots the same site picture for the majority of his 3d shots.
> 
> Things that make you go HUMMMMM



Almost totally agree :thumbs_up I think his POD may be closer to 30yrds. based on the pics and videos I've researched.

The important thing to realize...is that I've NEVER said that sharp is a liar or that I'm absolutely correct when my opinion states where I think his POD is, what aiming technique I think he is using and whether or not he sees his arrow. 

I've just used evidence to support my opinion and than have stated that only the archer knows for sure.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Almost totally agree :thumbs_up I think his POD may be closer to 30yrds. based on the pics and videos I've researched.
> 
> The important thing to realize...is that I've NEVER said that sharp is a liar or that I'm absolutely correct when my opinion states where I think his POD is, what aiming technique I think he is using and whether or not he sees his arrow.
> 
> ...


This is the difference of folks here... some folks, like yourself, offer opinions or personal analogy/experiences from which to offer comment.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

jkcerda said:


> nope, he TRIED to explain it, it was NOT that clear, I agree with that part. :wave:


For some the gist was easily discernible... even then there is a few who admit they get the point of it all but continue to argue over semantics.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

As a Gap shooter that shoots many different bows one of the fastest ways to ingrain the Gaps is basically what Jimmy showed in his video, except I walk back to 80 yards for Field, during this learning stage Im very aware of the exact gap, once its ingrained into memory I tend to switch my shooting to Gapinstinctive around 85% focus on the spot with a 15% awareness of the correct gap feeling, this works very well for me, other gappers use slightly different versions of gap that work for them. If I put too much focus into the gap when under pressure my form suffers so Gapinstinctive suits me well and I can remain relaxed and in control of my form in tourney situations.

Most Gap shooters I know go through a similar walkback process to build a clear picture in their mind of how the arrow behaves for them at each distance, it is either written down or memorized, the important thing is not what balistics/science is telling you but you have this clear picture in your own mind of your arrow trajectory and youre able to use it to your advantage.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> The important thing to realize...is that I've NEVER said that sharp is a liar or that I'm absolutely correct when my opinion states where I think his POD is, what aiming technique I think he is using and whether or not he sees his arrow.
> 
> I've just used evidence to support my opinion and than have stated that *only the archer knows for sure.*


Although, we must remember that, in some cases, (where "The Force" or the subconscious or the unconscious or mysterious "instincts" or "gapstincts" take over) the archer does not know either. He or she is only certain that they have a mysterious gift--perhaps after making a deal with the Devil.

To paraphrase Mongo......."Archer only pawn in game of shooting."

:amen:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> As a Gap shooter that shoots many different bows one of the fastest ways to ingrain the Gaps is basically what Jimmy showed in his video, except I walk back to 80 yards for Field, during this learning stage Im very aware of the exact gap, once its ingrained into memory I tend to switch my shooting to Gapinstinctive around 85% focus on the spot with a 15% awareness of the correct gap feeling, this works very well for me, other gappers use slightly different versions of gap that work for them.
> 
> Most Gap shooters I know go through a similar walkback process to build a clear picture in their mind of how the arrow behaves for them at each distance, it is either written down or memorized, the important thing is not what balistics/science is telling you but you have this clear picture in your own mind of your arrow trajectory and youre able to use it to your advantage.


Steve, I think a lot of the gap shooters do what you do and change their focus to the spot. My response to that is that ,in my opinion, once you switch that focus to the spot, then you lose the exactness of your gap as it is now in your secondary vision and not your primary focus. Personally, all I focus on is the gap, the arrow and spot are both secondary.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Steve, I think a lot of the gap shooters do what you do and change their focus to the spot. My response to that is that ,in my opinion, once you switch that focus to the spot, then you lose the exactness of your gap as it is now in your secondary vision and not your primary focus. Personally, all I focus on is the gap, the arrow and spot are both secondary.


I agree when I tried your method my gaps became smaller and more precise but my brain didnt accept the change and my form suffered in a BIG way when I tried scoring a round, I may have missed something so Im waiting till we meet in Miami and I will try again when your able to explain in more detail.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Personally, all I focus on is the gap, the arrow and spot are both secondary.


If you're gapping at the bow...and using the arrow to gap off of...isn't your arrow still in focus compared to the target when you focuses in on the gap?

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> This is ridiculous - to claim that the same sight picture can be used for a 10 yard shot and a 40 yard shot - even with an arrow going 210 fps - if you shoot the exact same sight picture - for a 10 yard shot and then shot at 40 yards - the arrow would drop 50.2 inches!
> 
> Just use this archery ballistics calculator and you can figure it out: http://www.outdoorsden.com/archery/archbal.asp
> 
> ...


I am really surprised how long this thread got, so quickly, considering that Jimmy was just illustrating what has already been explained, in great detail. Forgive me if I'm being redundant, but I don't have time to read through 11 pages.

The given window of a trajectory traveling in a tight portion of the sight picture will depend on the velocity, the shooter, and the sighting method. Nobody claimed any absolutes in this regard, only that there is a range where a single sight picture can serve very well, within the range of a kill zone on a deer. Jimmy was just providing an example.

Jimmy has shown gapping at the target. I did a far less thorough sight picture with my bamboo pieces of gapping locations on the riser. We got similar results in that there is a portion of the trajectory that travels more or less directly away from the shooter's eye. During this portion, even if it's dropping in a given shot, relative to the shooter (i.e., the sight picture), it stays _relatively_ constant.

If you want to do another test to disprove it, great, but make sure you implement the same gapping techniques. If you simply move the target farther away, you're completely missing the point. Since you can't/won't gap in either way, and you will have a blind machine doing it, you'll need to use a peep sight (and a front sight or measuring tape for gapping at the riser) to set the relative alignments before you shoot it. Please show us the aiming process you're taking in the video, so we can verify that you're actually using the methods that you say don't work as described.

Interesting, I don't remember seeing this mentioned before, or maybe I did, but it's worth saying again, if you gap at the target relative to the point of the arrow, you have some distance compensation/elevation already built in, because a given gap between the point and the target will translate to _less_ of an angle than a given distance than when gapped at the riser, or from the viewpoint of the arrow's launch direction. So, you can see that as you get farther away, keeping the same gap at the target, as you move back, you automatically start decreasing the gap at the riser, and start aiming upward.

Sharp, I can only say that we've gone over this. If you don't want to understand how your own ballistics calculator works with the eye's line of sight for a given gap, nobody can force you.

However, in hopes that you might be willing to grasp what's been said, and that it does not in fact disagree with the ballistics calculator you've generously provided, I have drawn another picture 









Things to note:


while the whole trajectory varies significantly, there is a portion of the trajectory that relative to the line of sights provided by either target point or a gap at the riser from the target point, that is relatively flat, _even if it is going down relative to the launch angle_
Gapping at the target, Gap A and Gap B are the same, even though gap B is lower than gap A.
From the eye's perspective, and from the gapping at the riser's line of sight, the gaps set by gapping at the target puts the target height higher (aim lower) with Gap A than Gap B


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> If you're gapping at the bow...and using the arrow to gap off of...isn't your arrow still in focus compared to the target when you focuses in on the gap?


This may well depend on the eyes (age of eyes) of the shooter.

Some may.......I see the target clearly and the gap and arrow are both peripheral.

:thumb:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Interesting, I don't remember seeing this mentioned before, or maybe I did, but it's worth saying again, if you gap at the target relative to the point of the arrow, you have some distance compensation/elevation already built in, because a given gap between the point and the target will translate to _less_ of an angle than a given distance than when gapped at the riser, or from the viewpoint of the arrow's launch direction. So, you can see that as you get farther away, keeping the same gap at the target, as you move back, you automatically start decreasing the gap at the riser, and start aiming upward.


I did post a simple experiment this morning using a compass set at 30y gap and measured as I walked forward, I got similar impression that as you move backward the gap is automatically compensated/corrected even though the eye still sees the same gap at the target is in fact getting smaller.

I played with that outdoorsman calculater for my Pro Accent 43# limbs 300g Navs and 208fps and 40y point on
5 y is 7.4
10y is 12.8
*15y is 16.1
20y is 17.3
25y is 16.3
30y is 13.1*
35y is 7.7
40y is 0


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Barney - well - Jimmy changed his story and said that he missspoke and that what he meant was that it was "relatively" the same gap from 10 - 30 yards - which is quite different from saying it is the same gap from 0 - 40 yards - so if you still believe that the same gap can be used from 0-40 yards - then your disagreement is not only with me - it is with Jimmy as well - oh - wait - will there be more backpedaling now? Who will it be from this time?


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

steve morley said:


> I did post a simple experiment this morning using a compass set at 30y gap and measured as I walked forward, I got similar impression that as you move backward the gap is automatically compensated/corrected even though the eye still sees the same gap at the target is in fact getting smaller.
> 
> I played with that outdoorsman calculater for my Pro Accent 43# limbs 300g Navs and 208fps and 40y point on
> 
> ...


Right there is the majority of the shots at a Trad 3D shoot in the US - same sight pic for the majority of your shots - 30 yards is just 3-4 inches out of the group and the limit of an IBO shoot.

Matt


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Barney,

You are absolutely correct regarding gap at the target versus gap at the bow.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey MATT in your playing around did you find it possible to shoot the same sight picture from 0-40 yards? How about 10-40 yards - heck how about 10 - 30 yards? A typical whitetail 3D target would allow you +/- 3 inches if you are aiming at the center of the ten - you could be 3 inches high or 3 inches low and still just make it in the 10 - if you are 3.25 inches high or 3.25 inches low - you are outside the 10. When you find that 0 mark that allows this - hit the print screen key on your keyboard and then go to Paint in your programs and then when that opens hit paste - and then the image of the chart will appear save it and then post it here for us all to see - and let us know the speed of the arrow and the zero point.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Nope - same sight picture for the majority of the shots we take 15-25 with small variations for under 15 and over 25 - there is a reason we compromise form with high anchor points - it closes our point on and gives us that sweet gap for the majority of our shots - instinctive, gap, pick a point it doesn't matter high anchor means the same basic sight picture for the majority of our shots.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

If you could only see it in the window 1/8" difference between 15 and 30 yds my biggest gap is 5/8" smallest is 1/2" I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record
Gary


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Well worded Matt,, and ohh so true..

The only time I have seen a dramatic change in sight picture was to shoot Bare-Bow, at the compound stakes, that opened up the gaps. Simply because the shots were farther, and to compensate for that, I tuned to a further POD,and extremely close shot, the compound guys had to shoot a 2yard target with their 60 yard pin.

The Trad stakes in IBO in La Grande, seemed to be near my point on position for 80 percent of the shots and the rest varied slightly within that 3-4 inch hold.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Right there is the majority of the shots at a Trad 3D shoot in the US - same sight pic for the majority of your shots - 30 yards is just 3-4 inches out of the group and the limit of an IBO shoot.
> 
> Matt


I played a little with the numbers because in my IFAA Field world the gaps are bigger because I normally use a more useable 55y point on with lower anchor, but I have used the same setup and got 40y point on with higher anchor. I just wanted to see what the calculator came out with and it seems what is (by some) considered impossible with a Recurve might actually be possible with the right arrow/bow combo.

Graham Holmes from UK was about the best Recurve Bowhunter Ive ever seen (he has won around 10 world/Euro titles in IFAA Field/3D), I heard from somebody his ILF Recurve setup was close to 240fps and he gunbarrels down the arrow. In Yankton world Bowhunters I was behind him on practice course and I never saw him out the kill, even on the 60y shots and when he won he outshot winning Barebow by 100 points.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Barney - well - Jimmy changed his story and said that he missspoke and that what he meant was that it was "relatively" the same gap from 10 - 30 yards - which is quite different from saying it is the same gap from 0 - 40 yards - so if you still believe that the same gap can be used from 0-40 yards - then your disagreement is not only with me - it is with Jimmy as well - oh - wait - will there be more backpedaling now? Who will it be from this time?


Sharp, I'm sure you were adorable as a child. I agree that relatively is correct  *hugs all around*


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## jkcerda (Jan 25, 2007)

BarneySlayer said:


> Sharp, I'm sure you were adorable as a child. I agree that relatively is correct  *hugs all around*


:chortle:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Then what is the truth? Care to lay it out?


grapplemonkey said:


> I highly doubt that what he's saying is true... for it were true then he would not have no merit to him arguing his or OSB's points.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hoooolllleeeeeeyyyy cow!..man have you folks been busy beavers! :laugh:

and to think..all over the fact that one fine man went above and beyond to demonstrate how to plot "THE ARCH" of trajectory for gap shooting while the other is working off a "DROP" chart.

I know this..wether it be my .308 bench rifle at 200yds or any of my bows at 20yds?..the first thing the projectiles do is "RISE"...and "ARCH" into the target.

12 pages over that? :laugh:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Only if pointed up.

:wink:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

*Done with the debate*

Those who wanted to get something from this did. Those who didn't won't. A few of you would rather argue over a word rather than learn something. I didn't make an argument for a fast arrow. The title was compromise. Some gappers use slow with small gaps and others use fast with a larger gap. It's your choice and I've done both. I've tried just about everything I've been exposed to in archery to see if it would help me shoot more accurately. There are people on here, including Ken, that refuse to even experiment with archery. Ken fears even seeing the arrow. Two of you say this must not be true but have no alternative. You don't even know what to think. I'll move on. My arrows tend to find a way into the 10 spot due to me understanding how to get them there. I tried to openly share some of that with some of you. You can actually affect where this flat spot is and the size of the gaps. Logos you say this is very simple and obvious but I actually travel around the country and watch thousands of people shoot. I teach and work with them and it's far from obvious. They don't understand cause and effect in their setups. There is vast ignorance in our sport. I knew not to argue it. Moving on.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> wether it be my .308 bench rifle at 200yds or any of my bows at 20yds?..the first thing the projectiles do is "RISE"...and "ARCH" into the target.


If pointed UP.

See, if an arrow (or bullet) is pointed horizontal it will just drop......no arc.

:thumb:


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## BigCnyn (Nov 5, 2008)

Thanks for the calculator,,
I plugged my IBO bow into the calc.:

10yrd-15.4"

15yrd- 19.4"

20yrd-20.8"

25yrd-19.7"

30yrd- 15.8
So I effectively can shoot a 2 inch picture from 15 to 26 yards, and a 4" picture from 10 to 35, And I already knew I could... I shoot a point on of 40 yards. All I had to learn was what 15" to 21 inches looks like at a 3-d target. sounded like 2 sheets of white paper hanging on a target from the center ten ring down and marked those points .. Wait I do not want to tell you that you can not know my secrets...lol

My sight picture would be very similar, but not the same...


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I am sorry Ken this is all my fault. I clearly can not communicate effectively. The entire thing is on me.


Really? Clearly, the basic intention of Jimmy's video was to point out that the gap will be nearly the same at the flattest point of the arrow's trajectory. And with the proper set up, can allow one to effectively hunt or 3D shoot nearly the same gap at most common ranged shots of 15-25 yds (this is probably most trad hunters effective range). I understood it very clearly, and I would consider myself a newbie. 

I am also not one to criticize a fine effort explaining the Gap Compromise by nitpicking the details. 

It's like getting mad at your son/daughter for getting a 99% on a test, because they should be perfect and get a 100%.

Jimmy gets an A+!!

By the way, doesn't anybody work during the day? Y'all spent alot of time on this thread.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt_Potter said:


> Nope - same sight picture for the majority of the shots we take 15-25 with small variations for under 15 and over 25 - there is a reason we compromise form with high anchor points - it closes our point on and gives us that sweet gap for the majority of our shots - instinctive, gap, pick a point it doesn't matter high anchor means the same basic sight picture for the majority of our shots.
> 
> Matt


But is it the same from 0-40 yards or from 10-40 yards, or from 10-30 yards - etc... - can you use the exact same sight picture for any of those distance variations without being out of the 10 ring - you obviously know that the answer to that question is NO - and that is what I have been saying all along and have had you guys arguing with me non-stop. I agree with Jimmy about one thing - there certainly is vast amounts of ignorance in our sport - epecially if one can think anyone can use the exact same sight picture for those ranges of distanes and still be in the ten ring!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Logos said:


> If pointed UP.
> 
> See, if an arrow (or bullet) is pointed horizontal it will just drop......no arc.
> 
> :thumb:


It always has an arc. Decreasing forward motion and downward gravity pull dictate that


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> Logos you say this is very simple and obvious but I actually travel around the country and watch thousands of people shoot. I teach and work with them and it's far from obvious. They don't understand cause and effect in their setups.


Well, I didn't know that.

Maybe there is more here anyway.......now you have me wondering--isn't the obvious choice to shoot the flattest shoot bow/arrow combo that you can find when doing these competitions?

:?:


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Then what is the truth? Care to lay it out?


Jimmy... when I quoted jkcerda I did it in a way that it did not show an entire conversation that was going on... what I saying was that I did not believe that Logos was telling the truth when he stated that all he got from your video was the basic message of "You can make a choice between a fast bow with a flat trajectory for easier aiming or a slow bow with a rainbow trajectory for MUCH more difficult aiming."

My case was that if all Logos got from the video was that message then he had no merit arguing his point or sharp's one either... since one can't put forth an argument over something that they have no concept of.

Man I hope that came out correct.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BigCnyn said:


> The Trad stakes in IBO in La Grande, seemed to be near my point on position for 80 percent of the shots and the rest varied slightly within that 3-4 inch hold.


I knew there was a reason you kicked my but - you aiming cheater.

Matt


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Jimmy I have worked very hard to get a 40 yd point on with my compound and my recurve (sorry for the compound word sharp) for this exact reason this is why the top shooters try so many different arrows bows and anchors to find out what is the best for accuracy. thank you for the graph this will help a lot of new and old shooters. I will use this when teaching why a higher anchor point sometimes is better for accuracy at mid ranges.
Gary


Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Those who wanted to get something from this did. Those who didn't won't. A few of you would rather argue over a word rather than learn something. I didn't make an argument for a fast arrow. The title was compromise. Some gappers use slow with small gaps and others use fast with a larger gap. It's your choice and I've done both. I've tried just about everything I've been exposed to in archery to see if it would help me shoot more accurately. There are people on here, including Ken, that refuse to even experiment with archery. Ken fears even seeing the arrow. Two of you say this must not be true but have no alternative. You don't even know what to think. I'll move on. My arrows tend to find a way into the 10 spot due to me understanding how to get them there. I tried to openly share some of that with some of you. You can actually affect where this flat spot is and the size of the gaps. Logos you say this is very simple and obvious but I actually travel around the country and watch thousands of people shoot. I teach and work with them and it's far from obvious. They don't understand cause and effect in their setups. There is vast ignorance in our sport. I knew not to argue it. Moving on.
> View attachment 1497302


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> You can actually affect where this flat spot is and the size of the gaps.


And how will high versus low anchor points impact the length of the relatively flat spot, if at all?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Logos said:


> And how will high versus low anchor points impact the length of the relatively flat spot, if at all?


It will change the angle of departure, which will change the arc of the trajectory line relative to the line of sight.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

After all of this... only Dewayne went out and actually applied what he learned in Jimmy's video... I'll try later when I can find a big enough target butt.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Sanford said:


> It will change the angle of departure, which will change the arc of the trajectory line relative to the line of sight.


So how does that impact the length of the relatively flat spot? Intuitively, it seems like it would increase it.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Logos said:


> If pointed UP.
> 
> See, if an arrow (or bullet) is pointed horizontal it will just drop......no arc.
> 
> :thumb:


If you're not shooting down, the arrow always starts shooting up.

More importantly, from the vantage point of the eye, which determines the sight picture, in relation to the target, the arrow always starts moving "up."

Thank you Jimmy for opening yourself up to this. I think we're all better off for it, whether we realize it or not


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> It will change the angle of departure, which will change the arc of the trajectory line relative to the line of sight.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> If you're not shooting down, the arrow always starts shooting up.


And if you're shooting horizontally, the arrow immediately starts to drop.

:thumb:


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## OBXArcher (Oct 24, 2007)

Jimmy awesome video and information. 

Does anyone else want OSB to take up golf ?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Logos said:


> If pointed UP.
> 
> See, if an arrow (or bullet) is pointed horizontal it will just drop......no arc.
> 
> :thumb:


wrong...maybe not with the arrow but...under the right conditions?..such as standing on flat ground or especially shooting from a bench that's 36"s off the ground and eeven worse yet?..from the prone position laying on the ground?..most bullets shot from most high powered rifles will in fact rise..why? (you ask?)..easy..."ground"..offers resistance...and the bullets rise slighty upwards as they ride upwards on their own "pressure wave"...and if ya don't believe me?..just ask any USMC Sniper if there's a dif in poi between shooting prone on flat ground or shooting from an elevated position such as mountain top too mountain top. 

so sir..you are at the very least..."partly" wrong...but i'll take it! :laugh:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Jimmy I have worked very hard to get a 40 yd point on with my compound and my recurve (sorry for the compound word sharp) for this exact reason this is why the top shooters try so many different arrows bows and anchors to find out what is the best for accuracy. thank you for the graph this will help a lot of new and old shooters. I will use this when teaching why a higher anchor point sometimes is better for accuracy at mid ranges.
> Gary


Gary Ive shot IFAA Field/3D for many years so my point on has always been around 55/60 yards, it has only been the last 18 months that Ive done some experimentation for WA3D (33y/30m max distance) after watching some of the top IBO guys shoot and reading about their setups it has been very interesting (almost addictive) experience trying to get a 35 to 40 yard point on with various setups, Jimmys video was good to watch and reminded me how much fun it is expanding your horizons in Archery. :thumbs_up


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Logos said:


> And if you're shooting horizontally, the arrow immediately starts to drop.
> 
> :thumb:


But you have to elevate the angle of departure to get the arrow UP to your line of sight if shooting horizontal.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> wrong...maybe not with the arrow but...under the right conditions?..such as standing on flat ground or especially shooting from a bench that's 36"s off the ground and eeven worse yet?..from the prone position laying on the ground?..most bullets shot from most high powered rifles will in fact rise..why? (you ask?)..easy..."ground"..offers resistance...and the bullets rise slighty upwards as they ride upwards on their own "pressure wave"...and if ya don't believe me?..just ask any USMC Sniper if there's a dif in poi between shooting prone on flat ground or shooting from an elevated position such as mountain top too mountain top.
> 
> so sir..you are at the very least..."partly" wrong...but i'll take it! :laugh:


It's well known that there's a difference in POI between shooting level and shooting from an elevated position. Happens with arrows, too.......but it's not from a "pressure wave."

When shooting level, arrows and bullets start to drop immediately......and I'm not even partly wrong. 

:amen:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Sanford said:


> But you have to elevate the angle of departure to get the arrow UP to your line of sight if shooting horizontal.


If you do that, you're not shooting horizontal, you're shooting up.

:amen:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Logos said:


> It's well known that there's a difference in POI between shooting level and shooting from an elevated position. Happens with arrows, too.......but it's not from a "pressure wave."
> 
> When shooting level, arrows and bullets start to drop immediately......and I'm not even partly wrong.
> 
> :amen:


well?..(and i'm just trying to help ya out here)..don't ever discuss this topic with any snipers at a bar or you may suddenly find yourself very open-minded if not extremely humble. :laugh:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Logos said:


> If you do that, you're not shooting horizontal, you're shooting up.
> 
> :amen:


No, if "you" are shooting horizontal, you have to make the weapon shoot up to your level. Your eyeballs are above the arrow. If it, the bow, shoots level, that will be its own plane and always below your line of sight - with no way to intersect. Surely we were way past Sharps initial assumptions on level trajectory angle by now.


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

Some posters lately have reminded me of an old comedy skit..."this is MY side!" for whoever is winning at the time and will placate/condone their idiocy....


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> But is it the same from 0-40 yards or from 10-40 yards, or from 10-30 yards - etc... - can you use the exact same sight picture for any of those distance variations without being out of the 10 ring - you obviously know that the answer to that question is NO - and that is what I have been saying all along and have had you guys arguing with me non-stop. I agree with Jimmy about one thing - there certainly is vast amounts of ignorance in our sport - epecially if one can think anyone can use the exact same sight picture for those ranges of distanes and still be in the ten ring!



Sharp - Remember when I told you that you sounded like a perseverating 5 year old.

You are taking what Grant said and attributing it to Jimmy please show me where in any of these threads Jimmy said 0-40.


perseveration
[pur′səvərā′shən]
Etymology: L, persevero, to persist
the involuntary and pathologic persistence of the same verbal response or motor activity regardless of the stimulus or its duration. The condition occurs primarily in patients with brain damage or organic mental disorders, although it may also appear in schizophrenia as an association disturbance. It is caused by a neurologic deficit.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks jimmy. It helps a lot.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Sanford said:


> No, if "you" are shooting horizontal, you have to make the weapon shoot up to your level. Your eyeballs are above the arrow. If it, the bow, shoots level, that will be its own plane and always below your line of sight - with no way to intersect. Surely we were way past Sharps initial assumptions on level trajectory angle by now.


Exactly.

You are shooting up. I'm talking about shooting level.

:thumb:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> ..don't ever discuss this topic with any snipers at a bar or you may suddenly find yourself very open-minded if not extremely humble.


In that unlikely event, I'll be sure to just talk about football.

:thumb:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Logos said:


> Exactly.
> 
> You are shooting up. I'm talking about shooting level.
> 
> :thumb:


But the problem is that you cannot feasibly shoot level bow if your line of vision is what you are operating from, so it should not be relevant anyway. Still, no matter the angle, the arrow is always dropping the moment it leaves, as nothing escapes gravity. At any incline, it is just transverse travel to vertical pull from gravity, but the arrow is still dropping the same rate it would otherwise as it also climbs.


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## grapplemonkey (Nov 2, 2005)

Logos said:


> Exactly.
> 
> You are shooting up. I'm talking about shooting level.
> 
> :thumb:


Do you mean aiming at a target that is on the same plane as your arrow/bullet/rock/feces?


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

This was great info for gaping up to your P.O. I was wondering what some of you guys do for distances beyond P.O.? Pick a point? For instance i know my arrow rest, plunger button, shelf all represent a certain distance. But is there a way to depict this like the Graph in Jimmies video. Or if there is a video already out there can someone please post the link??

Thanks guys


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

> This was great info for gaping up to your P.O. I was wondering what some of you guys do for distances beyond P.O.? Pick a point? For instance i know my arrow rest, plunger button, shelf all represent a certain distance. But is there a way to depict this like the Graph in Jimmies video. Or if there is a video already out there can someone please post the link??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVT6ZgpjPhI


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

logos i understand the idea behind trajectory.. Those videos dont quite tell me how to aim for targets past my Point on. Unless your telling me to ditch the bow and buy a Polaris missile? Thank you for the cool video though

So if anyone wants to try and dumb it down a bit for me for a second, please feel free.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Keep the bow and get a Polaris Missile!!!!

:teeth:

No, I'm just kidding around.

Buy the book, "Shooting the Stickbow."

:thumb:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Humdinger said:


> Those videos dont quite tell me how to aim for targets past my Point on.
> 
> So if anyone wants to try and dumb it down a bit for me for a second, please feel free.


For me...it depends on what's behind the target. Fortunately...living here in Colorado...there's usually mountains behind the target so I usually pick a spot above the target and place my arrow tip on it...but when I don't have that option..I may use the arrow rest, guesstimate the gap above the target or use the lower part of my bow as an aiming reference depending on the target's distance and/or shot circumstance.

Here's a video of me shooting at 150yrds. or so.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Logos said:


> After that heroic attempt at obfuscation, the facts are still the same--just as I said, any launched projectile immediately starts to drop.
> 
> Not this / and not this -- but this \ and that's just the way it is.
> 
> ...


No, you were differentiating between horizontal and elevation, UP I believe, and the thesis of your argument was than an arrow shot at level would immediately start to drop and have no arc. You never said "any", I did to demonstrate that the elevation is not what causes the arc - different elevations cause different arcs, but still all arcs  Obfuscation going on, but not on my end. I can keep track of a conversation pretty good


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## Double S (Mar 30, 2008)

Closed.


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