# Indoor Nationals



## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

I shot and actually did the app scoring on our bale. I thought the execution was pretty intuitive and painless. A couple of time the app dropped out and popped back up on a refresh but the delay was maybe 3-5 seconds with no loss of data.


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## UtahIdahoHunter (Mar 27, 2008)

SBills said:


> I shot and actually did the app scoring on our bale. I thought the execution was pretty intuitive and painless. A couple of time the app dropped out and popped back up on a refresh but the delay was maybe 3-5 seconds with no loss of data.


Nice shooting, 265 average with those rules is pretty good. I will be competing in Senior Male Barebow in SLC next month.


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## Wobbley (Sep 26, 2014)

SBills said:


> I shot and actually did the app scoring on our bale.


Was it an app you installed on your own device, or was it on a tablet or something issued by the venue?


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

There was a tablet with an otter box on it at each bail.


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## Wobbley (Sep 26, 2014)

rharper said:


> There was a tablet with an otter box on it at each bail.


Cool, thanks. I hope Newberry has it this weekend so I can try it out.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

We'll be using Rcherz here at Newberry. Had lots of practice using it even in local tournaments. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Puckett (Apr 27, 2006)

All locations are required to use it this year.


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## Glenredhawk (May 24, 2007)

Hope you had a great time in Mason. We are going to get better lighting next year in the new arena.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Glen, are you saying a new location all together or same place with better lighting?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I'm glad to hear everything went well.

USA Archery will use Rcherz to do real time scoring at all the venues. Everyone at home will be able to track their favorite archer's scores as it happens.

-Steve


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> I'm glad to hear everything went well.
> 
> USA Archery will use Rcherz to do real time scoring at all the venues. Everyone at home will be able to track their favorite archer's scores as it happens.
> 
> -Steve


 Great news, I wonder if the tourney could be on the same weekend in the future so that results are known in hours instead of weeks. I know some will say, that having the event on different weekends allows those with schedule issues the opportunity to compete, however I wonder if the number of archers that actually do so is significant.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> Great news, I wonder if the tourney could be on the same weekend in the future so that results are known in hours instead of weeks. I know some will say, that having the event on different weekends allows those with schedule issues the opportunity to compete, however I wonder if the number of archers that actually do so is significant.


That would be a positive step towards creating a championship event.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> Great news, I wonder if the tourney could be on the same weekend in the future so that results are known in hours instead of weeks. I know some will say, that having the event on different weekends allows those with schedule issues the opportunity to compete, however I wonder if the number of archers that actually do so is significant.


I know from personal experience, having multiple weekends is great for those with school, work, and other odd scheduling issues.

However, a single day (spread across multiple venues) would be technically better. The logistics of getting multiple venues in different locations to occur all on the same days is the biggest issue.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Serious Fun said:


> Great news, I wonder if the tourney could be on the same weekend in the future so that results are known in hours instead of weeks. I know some will say, that having the event on different weekends allows those with schedule issues the opportunity to compete, however I wonder if the number of archers that actually do so is significant.


lots of conflicts for one weekend. state shoots and sectionals for blueface. we have archers in our area going to two different venues on different weekends.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

The tablet is pretty cool. The Easton Center at Chula Vista uses those. I let the most tech savvy human on bale do THAT part of it.


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## kstolleis (Mar 16, 2014)

After using the electronic scoring at Vegas I can say I hope they go all electronic soon - no more math errors and probably cut 15 minutes off round time


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

I personally preferred this method of live scoring to the one used in Vegas. My $0.02. But I agree the real time math double check was nice and kept us on track.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

kstolleis said:


> After using the electronic scoring at Vegas I can say I hope they go all electronic soon - no more math errors and probably cut 15 minutes off round time


In Arizona, with all JOAD kids, no electronic scoring, and score runners, we average 8 minute ends on an ABCD line. 

Electronic scoring won't cut much more off of that, if any at all.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

SBills said:


> I personally preferred this method of live scoring to the one used in Vegas. My $0.02. But I agree the real time math double check was nice and kept us on track.


Pros and cons from all the systems. 

The back end systems - one type is permitted by World Archery. The other isn't. So if you're running a World Cup, World Championship, or World Ranking event, Ianseo or tFORS has to be used. 

USA Archery has contracted with Rcherz to provide their system. 

Wireless tablets used in archery are still somewhat in its late infancy. Battery power and wireless propagation are your biggest issues. Hence why wired handhelds are still used in Vegas. 

-Steve


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> In Arizona, with all JOAD kids, no electronic scoring, and score runners, we average 8 minute ends on an ABCD line.
> 
> Electronic scoring won't cut much more off of that, if any at all.


Same with the change from 20 seconds to 10 seconds, as it regards approach the line and shoot commands. But that was implemented anyway. I view electronic scoring as a positive change.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Realtime results in a mail match don't make it a true championship event. It's still a mail match.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> Realtime results in a mail match don't make it a true championship event. It's still a mail match.


I fully agree, but chose to keep the focus on moving the event towards that goal.

Last years results showed that the top shooters did not think enough of the event to participate.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Electronic scoring - like most technology, it's nice and convenient 'when it works'. 

And, 'it can be 'a great thing' ONCE it's matured around the edges in the areas where the rubber meets the road ... i.e. in outdoor venues, the screens can be VERY hard to read in daylight - at least for us 50+ guys... 

But this is indoor discussion, so carry on ...


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I can see where localized increases overall participation but a one site H2H finale would have everyone in the same conditions competing against each other, and promote drama and high performance. I think archery could use a big stage to promote the sport. I think 120 arrows scored is a good athletic test producing a fair result. But spread across all the venues you lose the drama. All in one place at some point, particularly H2H, would give the sport an indoor platform to promote itself.

Ideally, yeah, get qualifying down to one common weekend. If Nats staked out a particular weekend each year then it's basically everyone else clear the heck out. If someone insists on holding state that weekend it's kind of their problem. One way you resolve this is get this bid and set well ahead of time where it's like OK Vegas is that weekend and Nationals is that other weekend, OK, fit yours in between there someplace. If Nationals dallies and states start setting their meets sight unseen, then, yeah, you get the ____ing match. No, we set ours and reserved the hall, blah blah. In contrast, Vegas' 2017 date is already up. That resolves that. Even if it was, OK, it will be the third weekend in February each year, or whatever.

I am pleased they resolved the scoring issue. I looked Sunday a couple times to see how those in my class were doing, in progress. In previous years you either had to dig around for regional results (after the fact) and count people or wait forever. So this is a big improvement that needed to happen, credit given. I did Arizona last year and Vegas this year on Ianseo so I will compare the Rcherz and see what I think.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

>--gt--> said:


> Realtime results in a mail match don't make it a true championship event. It's still a mail match.


Personally, I still feel that there should be qualifiers before going to Nationals. But...that's just me...


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Electronic scoring - like most technology, it's nice and convenient 'when it works'.
> 
> And, 'it can be 'a great thing' ONCE it's matured around the edges in the areas where the rubber meets the road ... i.e. in outdoor venues, the screens can be VERY hard to read in daylight - at least for us 50+ guys...
> 
> But this is indoor discussion, so carry on ...


So, other than the need for a high NIT display, what else isn't working for you? Just curious...and I'm not trying to pry or anything, I really do want to know so that I can see if there's an improvement that can be made from what I can actually control.

-Steve


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Beastmaster said:


> Personally, I still feel that there should be qualifiers before going to Nationals. But...that's just me...


I think you could call it Nationals the whole way, but have the qualifying rounds locally, then 8 or 16 or 32 or whatever go to someplace for the final.

If you don't call the qualifying nationals then you're getting into the Trials thing of diminishing the broad participation event by name which is going to make it less attractive, or marketers will fudge it and people will be confused, etc. We can always call the H2H conclusion the National Finals or something just like you have the Open and Championship outdoors.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> The use of Rcherz at the Mason Michigan location seems to have gone well. Scores were posted in a timely manner and were easily tracked in near real time. Should the other venues employ Rcherz with the same effectiveness, results will be forthcoming in a much more timely manner.
> 
> http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...ndoor-Nationals/Indoor-Nationals-Results-2016


Wow, that's a big improvement over the results filtering out here in chunks and pieces. I'm greedy, though, and I'd like to see everyone's per-end scores, and day 1 vs. day 2.

I take it back -- here it all is if I look it up on the Rcherz web site:
All Nationals Current Live Scores

Individual shooter breakdown

-T


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Personally, I still feel that there should be qualifiers before going to Nationals. But...that's just me...


It certainly isn't "just you". There are at least two of us! 

Ours is one of the very few countries I can think of where anyone can go to Nationals without being ranked in the top 120 or so. That is a double-edged sword. Quality suffers at the hands of quantity in this case.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Add me as a third.

As a coach and parent, I have been asking for qualifiers or at least qualifying scores, for over a decade now. It's very embarrassing when a newspaper reporter asks the question "so what did your students have to do to qualify for Nationals?" And it's happened more than once. When you answer "nothing" it immediately moves the story to the back page, if it even makes the paper at all. You can visibly see the body language of the reporter change when you answer that question. 

This is a real credibility issue for our sport IMO. On top of that, it's a performance issue since qualifying criteria would without a doubt bring out a little more effort on the part of our JOAD kids (and adults too).


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

After having used the the electronic plus paper scoring at Easton Newberry, I have to give it a big thumbs up. For indoors at least. As was stated, outdoors, it can be tough to see the screen in bright sunlight. Perhaps something like an umbrella could be left at each target?

I personally like the split site format. It makes it possible for folks to participate who would otherwise not be able to.

Tournament scheduling must be a nightmare for U.S.A. Archery. Having to work around World Archery scheduling while trying to avoid conflicts with the NFAA. One thing they had better pay attention to is the money that is now in K50 in the ASA. In the past they have seemed to ignore the ASA scheduling but with the amount of money being put up for K50 you might start seeing more of the top shooters forgoing U.S.A. Archery events that conflict with the ASA.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> So, other than the need for a high NIT display, what else isn't working for you? Just curious...and I'm not trying to pry or anything, I really do want to know so that I can see if there's an improvement that can be made from what I can actually control.
> 
> -Steve


Okay, so what would be really helpful I think, at outdoor tournaments that have practice days before, would be to have some units that archers could practice with a little bit on the practice day, just to get familiar with press this button to get this screen, and then do 'this', and then do 'that', and then do 'this last thing' ). It's not brain surgery, but just a little bit of famliarity would make everyone able to step in and smoothly score at the target if needed. 

As it is right now, it's very common for the scorer on the tablet to say 'wait a minute, let me catch up', versus the paper record scorer who almost never has to say that. A lot of archers will consciously avoid having to be the one to use the tablet 'unfamiliar and under the gun'.

Of course, for one day tournaments with two practice ends before scoring begins, that practice time with the tablet becomes more problematic. But maybe still to have several units back behind the waiting line that people can dink around with before the shooting time.

Or maybe I'm the only one slow enough to need the training wheels prelim...


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lksseven said:


> Okay, so what would be really helpful I think, at outdoor tournaments that have practice days before, would be to have some units that archers could practice with a little bit on the practice day, just to get familiar with press this button to get this screen, and then do 'this', and then do 'that', and then do 'this last thing' ). It's not brain surgery, but just a little bit of famliarity would make everyone able to step in and smoothly score at the target if needed.
> 
> As it is right now, it's very common for the scorer on the tablet to say 'wait a minute, let me catch up', versus the paper record scorer who almost never has to say that. A lot of archers will consciously avoid having to be the one to use the tablet 'unfamiliar and under the gun'.
> 
> ...


Actually, having demo units is possible. 

Thanks!


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## Wobbley (Sep 26, 2014)

Beastmaster said:


> Actually, having demo units is possible.
> 
> Thanks!


That sounds like a good idea to me as well. I've never used one before.


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## Glenredhawk (May 24, 2007)

Mason is supposed to build a new complex. Our request is to have better lighting like the Demmer Center. They have agreed. The new facility will be twice as big so we can have more vendors.


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## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

I also shot at Mason and ran the tablet. I also ran the tablet in December at the team trials. I dropped out much more often in December. Much smoother this weekend. I do not think that eliminating paper is preferred in the short-term.

Improved lighting would be a bonus.

Dave


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I was hoping that they'd post a "how to" video for the using the tablet, either on youtube or the Rcherz website. We might have someone do it this weekend, but it would be better to have it beforehand. We could play it on a screen in the registration area. Next year?


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## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

archeryal said:


> I was hoping that they'd post a "how to" video for the using the tablet, either on youtube or the Rcherz website. We might have someone do it this weekend, but it would be better to have it beforehand. We could play it on a screen in the registration area. Next year?


It's really simple, intuitive, and hard to screw up. Even should it drop out. The tablets are even pretty tough - I saw a couple dropped (I wouldn't recommend that, though). Paper is more difficult - you don't end up with open boxes or messed up addition.....

Dave


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

SkiSoloII said:


> I also shot at Mason and ran the tablet. I also ran the tablet in December at the team trials. I dropped out much more often in December. Much smoother this weekend. I do not think that eliminating paper is preferred in the short-term.
> 
> Improved lighting would be a bonus.
> 
> Dave





SkiSoloII said:


> It's really simple, intuitive, and hard to screw up. Even should it drop out. The tablets are even pretty tough - I saw a couple dropped (I wouldn't recommend that, though). Paper is more difficult - you don't end up with open boxes or messed up addition.....
> 
> Dave


Drop outs were far less at Mason for Indoor Nationals because they had two fewer WiFi units than what they had at World Indoor Trials.

Less frequency clutter, less drops in the signal. 

-Steve


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## macnimation (Nov 30, 2010)

So how does it work over 13 different locations? Is it simply the highest ranking qualifying score wins? Or are there shootoffs later for the top qualifiers?


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Ranked by score in each division. There are no shoot-offs. Indoors, the conditions should be pretty comparable, though not identical. It would not be practical for most to go to a single location for a shoot-off.


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## collider (Nov 3, 2015)

What are the age ranges between divisions? I see a Masters 60+, but how old for Masters? How old to be a Senior? I couldn't find it on the USA website. 

The Rcherz live list is pretty great.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

I shoot Recurve masters 60+. There is also 70+.

I think the next age break down is 50.

Recurve Master is 50-59 or something like that.

Then Senior.

Then Junior.

Etc etc etc


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Anyone can shoot as a senior. Senior is technically 20-49. But Bowman, Cub, and Cadet aged people can shoot as a Senior, Juniors tend to get lumped in with Seniors, and Masters can shoot "down" to a Senior Division.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I guess we could call the current tournament the Indoor Nationals "Open". I'm currently in the top 3 of my division (for how long, I don't know) and would be honored to qualify to go to an "elite shoot-off" or "finals", but, unless I was lucky enough to live near where they held the finals, I probably wouldn't go. I'm not in one of the high-profile divisions (60+ OR), but I think it's good to have an "all-comers" national shoot. Maybe the USAT shoots should have a qualifying standard. 

It's a good intro to higher-level competitions beyond the local or state shoots, and encourages people to aim higher (figuratively, of course). You get an idea of where you stand in a larger context, and it gives an incentive to improve. You also learn from watching the better shooters. I'm fine leaving the Indoor Nationals pretty much where it is.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Yes the system worked very well . The new Easton center at Chula Vista was great, the best indoor facility I have ever been at. A big thanks to the folks at Chula Vista.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

tkaap said:


> Wow, that's a big improvement over the results filtering out here in chunks and pieces. I'm greedy, though, and I'd like to see everyone's per-end scores, and day 1 vs. day 2.
> 
> I take it back -- here it all is if I look it up on the Rcherz web site:
> All Nationals Current Live Scores
> ...


Paradise Lost -- it looks like they've removed the links from the competitor's names that would take you straight to their detailed scoring breakdown.

-T


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Okay, so what would be really helpful I think, at outdoor tournaments that have practice days before, would be to have some units that archers could practice with a little bit on the practice day, just to get familiar with press this button to get this screen, and then do 'this', and then do 'that', and then do 'this last thing' ). It's not brain surgery, but just a little bit of famliarity would make everyone able to step in and smoothly score at the target if needed.
> 
> As it is right now, it's very common for the scorer on the tablet to say 'wait a minute, let me catch up', versus the paper record scorer who almost never has to say that. A lot of archers will consciously avoid having to be the one to use the tablet 'unfamiliar and under the gun'.
> 
> ...


Maybe they just need to put some Cubs and Bowmen on the same bale as the Masters?

(hi Larry!)

Paul


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

The tablets aren't that hard to use. Each one is programmed with the archers' on that particular bale. The score accumulates though over the two days. It's really not rocket science (said the woman who was delighted to hand it off to ANYONE ELSE on the bale to do the tablet thing.) 

There really wasn't a problem at all -- except where people were having problems with actual math in the paper score cards.

The second day went faster because people were used to it.


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## Wobbley (Sep 26, 2014)

Somebody else did the tablet both days on my bale. But it went smoothly, and I peeked over at what the deal was on the tablet.

It didn't seem that bad.

The bale next to us had two brief tech difficulties with the tablet, but the judge sorted both of them out quickly. 

The tablet seems like a good idea.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

As for the dates, it is not just scheduling conflicts with archers but mostly scheduling with venues. Some of the venues may not be available on certain dates. However I do think a months difference is too much. It can offer an advantage to the later shooters as they have more time to practice, tune, etc. 

With the popularity of nationals as many locations filled up. I would demote this to a regional championship and have a separate national championship for those who qualify in their region. However outdoor season starts in April so the regional shoots would have to be in January so qualifying people can work out the logisistics to attend nationals. However January is packed with some major nfaa shoots so it would just be hard to work it all out.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Brad Rega said:


> As for the dates, it is not just scheduling conflicts with archers but mostly scheduling with venues. Some of the venues may not be available on certain dates. However I do think a months difference is too much. It can offer an advantage to the later shooters as they have more time to practice, tune, etc.
> 
> With the popularity of nationals as many locations filled up. I would demote this to a regional championship and have a separate national championship for those who qualify in their region. However outdoor season starts in April so the regional shoots would have to be in January so qualifying people can work out the logisistics to attend nationals. However January is packed with some major nfaa shoots so it would just be hard to work it all out.


Vegas 2017 already has a date:

https://www.nfaausa.com/event/the-vegas-shoot/

I don't know if a specific date is booked but our state NFAA has a deal in place for the Waco convention center for a period of years. It is Waco. But it's on roughly one of two late February weekends every year. Very predictable, when I did a lot of our SYWAT NFAA shoots I went ahead and wrote that tournament in, in pen alongside Vegas and our USAA nationals/region event.

The nationals at College Station is actually similarly reliable but with the way the bidding process is done, unlike say Vegas or Louisville, one cannot quite presume upon it until the process completes, which will be fall this year. At that tempo I assume some people have to simply take what they can get or use freedom to set events when they are used to holding them, even if this creates a diverse calendar of nationals dates. 

How about a process trade off where it has to be one weekend or no more than 3, but we tell you now whether you win the bid. And maybe over time work it where you're ultimately bidding for a particular weekend. Personally I'd like to see it all end up in one place a la Vegas as a showcase. I even think maybe have the finals tournament in Vegas at an adjacent time frame to the Vegas Shoot -- since a lot of key people are there anyway -- but that's not going to happen. But failing that, start unifying the event more.


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## collider (Nov 3, 2015)

StarDog said:


> I shoot Recurve masters 60+. There is also 70+.
> 
> I think the next age break down is 50.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that StarDog. Might have to give this a shot next year, sounds fun.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Better yet, have a digital one programmed on a web page so people could get the hang of it before the event.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Black46 said:


> Maybe they just need to put some Cubs and Bowmen on the same bale as the Masters?
> 
> (hi Larry!)
> 
> Paul


OMG please don't say that.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

teebat said:


> Better yet, have a digital one programmed on a web page so people could get the hang of it before the event.


Not practical. A web page based Android Emulator not only does not exist, you couldn't download an emulator on the fly and have it be fast.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

teebat said:


> OMG please don't say that.


Hm. I'll remember that when I do target assignments. It would be a good experience for all ages.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

teebat said:


> OMG please don't say that.


Word.


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## collider (Nov 3, 2015)

teebat said:


> Better yet, have a digital one programmed on a web page so people could get the hang of it before the event.


All you need to do to try out/use rcherz is to sign up for a free account. Pretty sure you can easily create a test page to get used to the software. And I think they already have templates for different contests set up. So I don't think there's anything holding anyone back from trying this beforehand.

I'm trying to convince our league to implement it (they're old school - paper), so I might set it up along side the paper to see how it goes.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

So I am in Cincinnati to shoot indoor nationals and am explaining to my 84 year old mom how the tournament works. She asks me if I am staying for awards. Ha! After two more explanations, I think she is maybe understanding. She asked me if this is the way these tournaments are usually run. Thankfully, I told her, it is not the norm.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> So I am in Cincinnati to shoot indoor nationals and am explaining to my 84 year old mom how the tournament works. She asks me if I am staying for awards. Ha! After two more explanations, I think she is maybe understanding. She asked me if this is the way these tournaments are usually run. Thankfully, I told her, it is not the norm.


Its Hamilton Ohio. They get touchy with being confused with Cincinnati!

thanks for coming-always great to see you here at our venue


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Jim C said:


> Its Hamilton Ohio. They get touchy with being confused with Cincinnati!
> 
> thanks for coming-always great to see you here at our venue


I get it Jim. I tell people I'm in Chicago, all though it's Glen Ellyn. It's just easier and people know Chicago. I'm sure the same applies to Hamilton and Cincinnati. 

Day 1 went off without a hitch. The electronic scoring was intuitive and easy. Much more user friendly than Ianseo, in my opinion. As always, the CJO crew puts on a first rate event. Thanks Jim, Liz, Darrell and all the judges and volunteers who make it possible.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I get it Jim. I tell people I'm in Chicago, all though it's Glen Ellyn. It's just easier and people know Chicago. I'm sure the same applies to Hamilton and Cincinnati.
> 
> Day 1 went off without a hitch. The electronic scoring was intuitive and easy. Much more user friendly than Ianseo, in my opinion. As always, the CJO crew puts on a first rate event. Thanks Jim, Liz, Darrell and all the judges and volunteers who make it possible.


Thanks Gabe. Liz has put lots and lots of hours in to this event. In fact she had to do Target assignments twice since her first effort was deleted by IIRC the rcherz site after the first site had its event so she had to do it all over.

Another big thanks goes out to Toby Salyers who is a member of our club as is his Daughter (code name Blondie who was the NFAA cub recurve winner last year) Toby does IT work for a major league school district in the county and his help with the tablets has been invaluable. Darrell Liz and I have been running tournaments together (along with various CJO members) for 16 or so years now.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

An interesting and very cool note about equipment at the shoot. Jason Pfister shot with a Yamaha Eolla riser and carbon limbs that had to date from the early 1990's. It was older than all of the JOAD kids shooting. He shot an 1151 with 90's technology. I watched him shoot both days. The rhythm and pace of his shot were enviable. It was fun to watch and a bunch of kids maybe came away from the shoot appreciating the skill of the archer more than the slickness of the equipment.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> An interesting and very cool note about equipment at the shoot. Jason Pfister shot with a Yamaha Eolla riser and carbon limbs that had to date from the early 1990's. It was older than all of the JOAD kids shooting. He shot an 1151 with 90's technology. I watched him shoot both days. The rhythm and pace of his shot were enviable. It was fun to watch and a bunch of kids maybe came away from the shoot appreciating the skill of the archer more than the slickness of the equipment.


Jason's a great guy, always willing to help anyone-not just members of his club and he's done a good job in getting OSU back into archery. One of OSU's new students, a product of Halls Arrows, has the second high junior ladies score so far. former PAA champion Steve Robinson, still shooting well at 73 or so years of age, used to show up at the Ohio State shoot with first generation TD recurve bows he had shot at Vegas almost 50 years ago and still crank out 560/600 level scores on the FITA I and FITA II indoor rounds. Jason cranked out a 1150+ score up in Cleveland two weeks ago with that Yamaha-he had a GMX as Backup!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

we had one parent complain that the judges (including me) didn't allow archers to change targets anytime they wanted. Rather only if the lines on the target had become chewed up and the scorers were having difficulty calling the target. WHY? because we had several kids after the two practice rounds who wanted to change their targets merely because they had shot an arrow outside the TEN and didn't want that on the target. We didn't allow that. I wonder how other judges or Tournament directors view tis. the interesting thing is -the pro shooters like Scott Starnes always ask the judges and its invariably when the lines are too chewed up.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Jim C said:


> we had one parent complain that the judges (including me) didn't allow archers to change targets anytime they wanted. Rather only if the lines on the target had become chewed up and the scorers were having difficulty calling the target. WHY? because we had several kids after the two practice rounds who wanted to change their targets merely because they had shot an arrow outside the TEN and didn't want that on the target. We didn't allow that. I wonder how other judges or Tournament directors view tis. the interesting thing is -the pro shooters like Scott Starnes always ask the judges and its invariably when the lines are too chewed up.


 I thought the rules say that the choice of changing target faces is exclusively up to the judge. In which case, they've got nothing to complain about.

Of course, that works both ways. Some people don't like it when the judge changes a target that has a nice big black hole dead center...


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Jim C said:


> we had one parent complain that the judges (including me) didn't allow archers to change targets anytime they wanted. Rather only if the lines on the target had become chewed up and the scorers were having difficulty calling the target. WHY? because we had several kids after the two practice rounds who wanted to change their targets merely because they had shot an arrow outside the TEN and didn't want that on the target. We didn't allow that. I wonder how other judges or Tournament directors view tis. the interesting thing is -the pro shooters like Scott Starnes always ask the judges and its invariably when the lines are too chewed up.


Next thing ya know they'll want to ask for an arrows outside the ten not to be scored......and get a do over.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> we had one parent complain that the judges (including me) didn't allow archers to change targets anytime they wanted. Rather only if the lines on the target had become chewed up and the scorers were having difficulty calling the target. WHY? because we had several kids after the two practice rounds who wanted to change their targets merely because they had shot an arrow outside the TEN and didn't want that on the target. We didn't allow that. I wonder how other judges or Tournament directors view tis. the interesting thing is -the pro shooters like Scott Starnes always ask the judges and its invariably when the lines are too chewed up.


Rules state that the target is to be changed when the judge is unable to recreate the lines to effectively score the target or at the judge's discretion and request. All the venues should be following this general rule of thumb.

-Steve


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> I thought the rules say that the choice of changing target faces is exclusively up to the judge. In which case, they've got nothing to complain about.
> 
> Of course, that works both ways. Some people don't like it when the judge changes a target that has a nice big black hole dead center...


exactly George but I just wanted to check in case my reading of the rules was somehow incorrect

generally those who do blow the center out have been around long enough to know the rules. 
Thanks


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Rules state that the target is to be changed when the judge is unable to recreate the lines to effectively score the target or at the judge's discretion and request. All the venues should be following this general rule of thumb.
> 
> -Steve


Yeah Steve I agree, I started another thread on this so not to derail this one


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## Fist429 (May 20, 2013)

Thanks for the kind words Gabe and Jim. I had about as much fun as you could have this weekend.
For the record it was an alpha -ex from 1986 with carbon wood limbs. Shot it at world indoor trials also with some success. The old stuff still feels good. It will probably be bow #1 for outdoor as well.

As for the target change issue, I don't like seeing holes in the 9 ring or red either but I shot the same target all day both days. Lines were in good shape so no need to change. End of story. Great job by Cincinnati junior Olympians once again.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Fist429 said:


> Thanks for the kind words Gabe and Jim. I had about as much fun as you could have this weekend.
> For the record it was an alpha -ex from 1986 with carbon wood limbs. Shot it at world indoor trials also with some success. The old stuff still feels good. It will probably be bow #1 for outdoor as well.
> 
> As for the target change issue, I don't like seeing holes in the 9 ring or red either but I shot the same target all day both days. Lines were in good shape so no need to change. End of story. Great job by Cincinnati junior Olympians once again.


Yeah those X10s don't make much of a hole. I suspect with 2315s you'd have shot an 1170

thanks Jason, we always are happy to see you at one of our tournaments and all my kids look up to you


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

This is the quickest I can remember Indoor Nationals being officially done. USAA recognized a need for significant improvement and has taken a big step forward. I hope they/we keep advancing improvements in this event. Congratulations to all.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> This is the quickest I can remember Indoor Nationals being officially done. USAA recognized a need for significant improvement and has taken a big step forward. I hope they/we keep advancing improvements in this event. Congratulations to all.


Good shooting, Gabe!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

And you as well Larry. Of all the years Rick decided to shoot Indoor Nationals............


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

This was my first year shooting nationals and I ran the electronic scoring tablet the second day. I like it a lot. Very simple to use. It did have a couple glitches and reset a couple times, but the data was saved and it didn't slow us down or anything. This was in Salt Lake.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

cbrunson said:


> This was my first year shooting nationals and I ran the electronic scoring tablet the second day. I like it a lot. Very simple to use. It did have a couple glitches and reset a couple times, but the data was saved and it didn't slow us down or anything. This was in Salt Lake.


Salt Lake's venue has the interesting issue of having had too many WiFi devices in the venue. Everything is controlled by WiFi, including the lighting.

So, adding the tablets to run scoring did create an overall "traffic" issue. It's nothing that really harms the scoring system, it just delays it being uploaded as fast as it could be.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Having previously criticized scoring at US indoor I have to give it props, real time scoring to the point that the official release the day after -- weeks ahead of last year -- is a formality. There did seem to be glitches including at our bale, and that should be worked on, but we had a glitch at BB Vegas with Ianseo and the wired sets. Deal on that would be just make sure it can be restored quickly and is backed up as it goes.

I did the machine at Vegas and paper at Indoors. I can't really comment on how efficient the handhelds were though they seemed solid.

I assume the reason it's paper plus machine is in case the machine system goes down.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Azzurri said:


> Having previously criticized scoring at US indoor I have to give it props, real time scoring to the point that the official release the day after -- weeks ahead of last year -- is a formality. There did seem to be glitches including at our bale, and that should be worked on, but we had a glitch at BB Vegas with Ianseo and the wired sets.


More professional curiosity - what glitches did you see? Again - I want to report the glitches back to the developers.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

On a side note - I do want to give a small bit of background information and workings as to how things were done.

Depending on the venue, we had support either on site from USA Archery's scoring team, virtually (remote access) from USA Archery's scoring team, or had on site support from people who have used Rcherz at other venues in the past. 

After each venue completed their scoring, and all scorecards were turned in, the scoring team and volunteers verified all the scorecards turned in against what was entered in. Any corrections were made, and then the results for that particular venue were locked down. In the worst case, the last arrows were shot on a Sunday night, and results were locked down two days later on a Tuesday. The best cases - the results were locked down late that same evening.

I can't speak enough praises to the volunteer base at all of the venues. They were the ones that really did the majority of the work on the scorecard verification, and cranked through them all efficiently and quickly. 

So, when Harrisonburg, Snellville, and SLC finished their verifications, all venues were locked and USA Archery felt comfortable enough to publish the results. 

Personally, I'm glad people like the end result. 

-Steve


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Beastmaster said:


> More professional curiosity - what glitches did you see? Again - I want to report the glitches back to the developers.
> 
> -Steve


We had a couple times where we were scoring and the pad, you'd push it and it would reflect the push with a visual "blip" but it wouldn't actually load the archer score screen. They did "something" and we could drill down to the scoring screens again. Just occasional, not recurring.

I was keeping paper that day so my specifics are limited. I know we had to get a judge and wait a minute or so.

Only other thing I noticed was when there was an "M" but the scorer didn't record it, it may have still let you proceed. The organizer came over at a point saying we were short arrows. I don't think it mattered in practice because I believe they were 0s. But you might want it where even if it's late shot or an outright M three values have to be recorded to get off the screen. I don't know if that's a user or computer thing because I was watching day 1 and paper day 2. But since technically it should be recorded for good when we walk back, you'd want to force the user to do it before then.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed. And thanks!

-Steve



Azzurri said:


> We had a couple times where we were scoring and the pad, you'd push it and it would reflect the push with a visual "blip" but it wouldn't actually load the archer score screen. They did "something" and we could drill down to the scoring screens again. Just occasional, not recurring.


Known issue. That's getting corrected. Getting technical - there is a small issue with how the push occurs. It uses (ironically) the Android Messaging API to achieve that goal. However, in order to take advantage of cheaper Android based tablets (like the $50 Amazon Fire tablets, or the $99 Amazon Kids Fire tablet with a no questions asked 2 year warranty), the push method is going to change.

(snip)



> Only other thing I noticed was when there was an "M" but the scorer didn't record it, it may have still let you proceed. The organizer came over at a point saying we were short arrows. I don't think it mattered in practice because I believe they were 0s. But you might want it where even if it's late shot or an outright M three values have to be recorded to get off the screen. I don't know if that's a user or computer thing because I was watching day 1 and paper day 2. But since technically it should be recorded for good when we walk back, you'd want to force the user to do it before then.


The reason why the scoring software allows you to proceed is in the off chance you have an equipment malfunction and you don't shoot your arrows on that end. So you can have a blank and still progress onward, then go back to the end that you're making up.

There are also some odd cases (that actually happened in Chula Vista's venue) where people shot one or two ends, then walked off and away...and didn't shoot any more arrows for that session or venue. They didn't leave because of injury - they just shot some ends and then outright left. So, you also have to accommodate for that odd type of incident as well.

Again, thanks for the feedback! We need constructive information like this!
-Steve


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## Wobbley (Sep 26, 2014)

Perhaps an equipment failure arrow should be scored as an "R" for reshoot. And leave the ability in the App to jump back to an R. Too confusing maybe?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Wobbley said:


> Perhaps an equipment failure arrow should be scored as an "R" for reshoot. And leave the ability in the App to jump back to an R. Too confusing maybe?


Then we run afoul of World Archery rules. You either have 1-10, X (for outdoor), M (for miss), or blank. That's it.

-Steve


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> More professional curiosity - what glitches did you see? Again - I want to report the glitches back to the developers.
> 
> -Steve


Pasted from an rcherz specific thread:

I thought I'd start a different thread to comment on rcherz. On the whole, rcherz was a very intuitive tool that was easily used. Mistakes were easy to correct. Even if you exited the application in error, scores were saved. There is much to like. 

There are areas where the software could have been better. 1) The font size on the 9s and 10s was abysmally small. It's an easy correction and should be made. 2) The point of electronic scoring is to verify accuracy, so there should be a running total, instead of having to manually add each 36 arrow total of 10s and 9s. Again, a pretty easy fix. 3) Our instructions were to start a new total on day two. rcherz did not support starting a new score. At least not that I could figure out. The program kept a running total which included day one. There was a work around for arrows 73 to 108. I would input the end score, move back to the archer screen and tap the archers name again. I could then scroll down to the running total for those arrows and verify with those scoring on paper. For arrows 109 to 144, there was no work around to verify running totals for day two only. 

It could well be that venue personnel will have to change the traditional way of keeping scores, or a program change could be implemented to accommodate 2 individual scoring days.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> Salt Lake's venue has the interesting issue of having had too many WiFi devices in the venue. Everything is controlled by WiFi, including the lighting.
> 
> So, adding the tablets to run scoring did create an overall "traffic" issue. It's nothing that really harms the scoring system, it just delays it being uploaded as fast as it could be.


If that's it, I would consider it a huge success. Huge thanks for all you guys do.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Okay...I can cover one part of that - font size.

The issue with font size is inherent in the Android ecosystem. Because there is not a standardized screen size ratio (some are 16:9, some aren't), fonts have to be chosen to where it is the same across all possible theoretical platforms. 

Unfortunately, the super small font for totals seems to have come out the best. I don't agree with it, but it's the easiest way to provide a somewhat consistent view, albeit one that hurts my eyeballs and makes it hard to see even when I wear readers. 

-Steve



midwayarcherywi said:


> Pasted from an rcherz specific thread:
> 
> I thought I'd start a different thread to comment on rcherz. On the whole, rcherz was a very intuitive tool that was easily used. Mistakes were easy to correct. Even if you exited the application in error, scores were saved. There is much to like.
> 
> ...


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Lots of talent this year! I ended up taking 23rd but if I scored the same as I did this year, last year I would have been top 16 haha.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> And you as well Larry. Of all the years Rick decided to shoot Indoor Nationals............


Haha, I know, right?! I'm totally taking his entry personally! :set1_punch::set1_punch: I'll knew he'd make me pay for that 10 last summer :dancing:


And, Glenn, if you're lurking about here - congratulations!!!! 

And, Rick, congratulations to you too! Getting beaten like a rented mule by you is almost a pleasure :shade:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I hear there's a "masters" division I'll be eligible for soon. You guys must tell me more about it.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I wonder how many of our junior archers were helped by knowing exactly where they stood. I sure saw lots of kids peering intently at their Smart phones when not actually on the line. 

I wonder how many archers were affected by scores already posted. One of my top archers successfully defended his title. Last year he had shot what was the highest score in the entire tournament but only won by one point. The guy he beat shot later so my archer didn't know what to expect-it was his first time shooting USA indoors though he had previously won the NFAA indoor, USA A outdoor and two outdoor world crosbow titles. I know that the guy who finished so close (and had won several times in the past) knew going into his session at JMU last year what he had to shoot to win. This year it was reversed and his score was much lower so my archer knew that when he shot in Hamilton. His first day was bad for him 590 versus 598 last year and he was having some issues with the level on his aperture moving during the shooting. But he also knew he had a cushion and shot better the second day and won by a fairly comfortable margin. What would he have shot if he didn't know what his toughest competitor had scored? 

So I guess it would be interesting to hear from others what they think of this live real time scoring and how it affects the archers-both newbies or say top competitors like the fellow I am coaching


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