# The Frustration Factor



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Yes, it has set in. I've spent more time shooting indoors this year than probably the past 5 combined...but things aren't getting better. I hate to admit it...getting worse. How do you attack this problem?


----------



## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> Yes, it has set in. I've spent more time shooting indoors this year than probably the past 5 combined...but things aren't getting better. I hate to admit it...getting worse. How do you attack this problem?


I do not intend to sound sarcastic but practice does not make perfect but perfect practice makes prefect.


----------



## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

You might be getting burned out. Take alittle break then come back to it. could make all the difference in the world.


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

WV Has It- No, it's not sarcastic. I understand your point. What do you consider 'perfect practice'? 

itchy- That may be happening soon...thanks to my employer.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> WV Has It- No, it's not sarcastic. I understand your point. What do you consider 'perfect practice'?


Just shooting isn't practice.....what are your problems? Is your form correct? Are you shooting the release correct? 

Basicly what are you working on? Or are you working on anything or just really flinging arrows?


----------



## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

WV Has It said:


> I do not intend to sound sarcastic but practice does not make perfect but perfect practice makes prefect.




This is exactly right!!!!!!!

If somethings wrong in your mechanics/form or whatever it may be, work on that part until you get it fixed...then move onto the next part...it will eventually come together...(well atleast in theory:embara


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

I tackle it by buying new gear. After that I say "If doing "A" causes me to drop points, no longer do "A"" and that works well.


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Just shooting isn't practice.....what are your problems? Is your form correct? Are you shooting the release correct?
> 
> Basicly what are you working on? Or are you working on anything or just really flinging arrows?


I don't consider 'just shooting' as practice, and I'm not flinging arrows.  My approach this year has been to concentrate on making good shots.

Is my form correct? Good question. I can't shoot and watch myself at the same time.


----------



## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> I don't consider 'just shooting' as practice, and I'm not flinging arrows.  My approach this year has been to concentrate on making good shots.
> 
> Is my form correct? Good question. I can't shoot and watch myself at the same time.


I had the oppurtunity to watch some of your shots last Thursday and over the weekend.

If you are still interested in my help we need to anchor a date.


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

WV Has It said:


> I had the oppurtunity to watch some of your shots last Thursday and over the weekend.
> 
> If you are still interested in my help we need to anchor a date.


Thursday was a good night...for me. :wink: Friday  ...that was just downright embarassing. 

After you get back from Vegas, absolutely!


----------



## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

mdbowhunter said:


> I don't consider 'just shooting' as practice, and I'm not flinging arrows.  My approach this year has been to concentrate on making good shots.
> 
> Is my form correct? Good question. I can't shoot and watch myself at the same time.




It is very hard to shoot and watch your self. So now ya got an offer to watch you and help you out so jump at the chance and you will not be sorry.

Weather it be a has been shooter or a top line shooter or anyone else never turn down some help as it mite save you a lot of bad shooting days. AC


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

archerycharlie said:


> It is very hard to shoot and watch your self. So now ya got an offer to watch you and help you out so jump at the chance and you will not be sorry.
> 
> Weather it be a has been shooter or a top line shooter or anyone else never turn down some help as it mite save you a lot of bad shooting days. AC


Getting some time with Has Been was already in the mix. He comes highly recommended. 

Just looking for some other ideas too. I'm sure there are lots of shooters here who have experienced the same issues.


----------



## Man-n-Pink (Nov 7, 2006)

mdbowhunter said:


> Getting some time with Has Been was already in the mix. He comes highly recommended.
> 
> Just looking for some other ideas too. I'm sure there are lots of shooters here who have experienced the same issues.




Oh most definately. I was in the same boat. One of the best things that I can recommend is that when you seek advice is that you seek it from a couple of people. If you get more than that involved you will start to run into trouble because your getting to much info from to many, and it can get confusing at times. Work on suggestions from your guy. work on suggestions from someone else but don't try to work them togehter becasue everyone teaches or helps a little different than from another.

You did say one good thing, you practice making goods shots. 

Ask yourself----What makes a good shot and go from there.


----------



## az2tx (Dec 4, 2007)

*sounds like you are forcing it*

In archery like most things you can't force it, let the shot happen

You might want to try walking away for a few days, then pick it up and focus on what makes a good shot, start with feet placement and work up from there. 
One other thing you might want to try is make a list, a checklist if you will of what it takes to make a good shot and go thru your list. 
Go out use your list and make one good shot, if it is good, shoot another, if you get a bad one go do something else for a while.
This is what I have done since the day I was having a meltdown after shooting a 3D tourney, my game just fell apart. Having Randy Ulmer as a friend and neighbor and on speed dial didn't hurt and that was the advice he gave me


----------



## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

mdbowhunter said:


> I don't consider 'just shooting' as practice, and I'm not flinging arrows.  My approach this year has been to concentrate on making good shots.
> 
> Is my form correct? Good question. I can't shoot and watch myself at the same time.



Set up a video camera and film yourself shooting, this has helped me in the past.

Lien2


----------



## Man-n-Pink (Nov 7, 2006)

Lien2 said:


> Set up a video camera and film yourself shooting, this has helped me in the past.
> 
> Lien2


JAVI, told me the same thing. shoot a full match and record it. set it up so your in the entire frame, from head to feet, that way you can tell in there are any changes from shot to shot.


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks for the suggestions. I had my son video tape me from three sides, but didn't get a head-to-toe view. That's an interesting idea Lien2 and divot250. I didn't see anything unusuall. But in the basement...not really aiming at a target...might not provide an accurate picture of your form.

I guess I'm experiencing normal stuff. You practice...you improve...then you fall back a little...then eventually a breakthrough happens. Guess you gotta find a way to stay positive during that 'fall back' time. :wink:


----------



## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

mdbowhunter said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. I had my son video tape me from three sides, but didn't get a head-to-toe view. That's an interesting idea Lien2 and divot250. I didn't see anything unusuall. But in the basement...not really aiming at a target...might not provide an accurate picture of your form.
> 
> I guess I'm experiencing normal stuff. You practice...you improve...then you fall back a little...then eventually a breakthrough happens. Guess you gotta find a way to stay positive during that 'fall back' time. :wink:



You need to video your entire shot sequence: loading the arrow, drawing, anchoring, holding, releasing, follow through. Shoot 10 times or so and just let the camera roll, then critique yourself on the vidoe, or put it on AT, you will get any needed help for sure! :wink:

Lien2


----------



## archerycharlie (Nov 4, 2002)

You will find out every one has good days and bad days. Just try to leave your frustrations out of the whole picture and focus on the task at hand. One arrow at a time. Have fun. AC


----------



## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

a good archery coach can pick out your problems in minutes end your frustrations , its well worth the time and money


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

As already said if you are practicing more and getting worse you are practicing bad habits and shots

I'll tell you what worked for me 

1) Pure back tension release … I it was like paying for a coach... the equipment in itself taught you something about shooting . Nothing else you can "buy" can help teach you to make a good shot ( besides a coach) 


2) Practice with it …. Close range getting used to it I did nothing else for 20 days ... . Once you get used to it it's time to work on the mechanics

3) Film yourself.. How's your alignment and draw length?? Adjust until they are RIGHT and in my opinion there is a rudimentary and baseline version of RIGHT that most good archers have. Then they tune for their own individual desires. Sometimes it could appear to be unorthodox but for the most part the basics are there

4) Once it Looks and Feels RIGHT now is the time to tweak a little . You Don't have to KNOW what to do let you bow speak for you . Little stabilization here .. Little less there…. 1/4 inch +/- on the draw … watch the sight picture .. Steadier?? Is the release breaking easier and more cleanly?? Once the answer to both is yes THEN you are ready to start practicing 

5) I like to start people with 20 arrows blank bail working on ONE thing.. Could be back tension , Could be shot timing , Could be follow through . Then the last 20 at 10 yards.. Start center punching the x and gain confidence 

6) Move your game to 20 yards and take notes. Shot broke low out of the x?? Keep a log .. Were was your pin? Were you shooting a strong shot in your opinion?? Was your shot timing longer then normal?? Soon trends will be evident and THEN you will Have material to practice on

Something like this is an example of PERFECT practice … if you are learning NOTHING from your misses then you are not practicing


----------



## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

An archer with mediocre form and good execution can be a great archer. 

On the other hand an archer with perfect form and poor shot execution can never be a great archer.

MD concentrate on your shot execution.



After observing MD shooting his form is not the issue. It is deeper than that.:darkbeer:


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

*An archer with mediocre form and good execution can be a great archer. 

On the other hand an archer with perfect form and poor shot execution can never be a great archer.

MD concentrate on your shot execution*.

Undoubtedly true however in my experience I frequently find the 2 can and often do go hand in hand 

For example what is poor-v-good shot execution?? Is poor timing were your missed shot took 3 times longer to break poor "execution"?? If so why did it take longer ?? Was it a mental breakdown?? Or was it a form issue that is not allowing consistent use of back tension??

I know an archer that after keeping records' consistently blew out the top of the x when his execution was off and he pushed to hard into the shot. Playing with the weight on his stabilizer ( crazy heavy by my standards) allows him to "get away" with some of that when the pressure is on. One could say the REAL solution was to practice perfect execution. However if he knows what happens to him under pressure and he found a way to minimize that effect then ultimately I feel that is the perfect blend of what is required 

In my opinion one should strive for a blend of form and execution that allows for the most margin of error and not nessisirily the need of a perfect execution of one to overcome the other . Obviously one can overcome another when practiced to perfection . However it's all armchair coaching without having the archer present as well 

Interesting fodder for conversation none the less


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Often times it is impossible to find the ladder, until one slides all the way to the bottom of the hole....:wink:


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

WV Has It said:


> An archer with mediocre form and good execution can be a great archer.
> 
> On the other hand an archer with perfect form and poor shot execution can never be a great archer.
> 
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head. From the video my son took, head and shoulder position, grip and arm height all looked fine to me. I guess that's why you said you weren't sure if you could help. Well, I'm gonna let you try anyway. Have you perfected that Vulcan Mind Meld yet? :wink:


----------



## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

centerx said:


> As already said if you are practicing more and getting worse you are practicing bad habits and shots
> 
> I'll tell you what worked for me
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know if it matters, but I believe I'm shooting my Stan through hand rotation, not pure back tension. I know there are various opinions on this issue. Since I've used it for so many years I really am not sure. What's your opinion?


----------



## archer1983 (Dec 24, 2006)

I find that sometimes shooting indoors will induce target panic....

To fix this problem I will shoot outside for a while and then come back indoors to shoot. 

See if that helps any

:cocktail:


----------



## 3D-Nut (Jan 26, 2007)

JAVI said:


> Often times it is impossible to find the ladder, until one slides all the way to the bottom of the hole....:wink:


Amen to that!

I have been there.

I understand your frustration. I was recently there. I took 3 months off from archery last fall and then picked it back up. When I braked from it I was shooting decent but horrible in competition. 2 weeks after getting back into it I shot my frist 300 Vegas game. I have shot many more since. I have also shot my first 60X game and have been doing better in compitition. I have done this by taking a no quit attitide and accepting the bad with the good, learning how to play the mental game and just being patient. 

If you demand instant gratification in this sport you will be very dissapointed. Stick with it and be patient. Shoot blind, shoot short and FOCUS! Stay positive, have fun, learn from your mistakes and more importantly learn to forget your mistakes. Work on your mental game now. Understand how to make a perfect shot first, then learn how to make a perfect shot on command. Not to be confused with hitting the X. Making a perfect shot and hitting the X are 2 totally different things. Yes a perfect shot should result in an X provided the arrows and bow are tuned properly, but an X in and of itself doesnt meen a perfect shot was made. Find the perfect shot and learn how to duplicate it.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

3D-Nut said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> I have been there.
> 
> ...



Great post....lots of truth spoken here folks.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

*Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know if it matters, but I believe I'm shooting my Stan through hand rotation, not pure back tension. I know there are various opinions on this issue. Since I've used it for so many years I really am not sure. What's your opinion?*

I think this is a classic example of what I was talking about. I know and have talked to many different good archers/pro and the methods of getting the release to rotate are varied 

Some rotate it with there hands. Others “Squeeze “the release eliciting a rotating motion to it. Others “pull” with there “back tension” imagine a wall behind your elbow you are trying to hit 

What they don’t tell you is what is going on with there back tension because ultimately that is not the question archers are asking. They are asking how do you trigger your release

I have discovered that this is a classic example of all the greats having a common basic form and then tweaking it to a style they can be comfortable with. ALL of them are maintaining back tension as in using the back muscles to hold the shot and NOT the muscles in the shoulders and arms … again you don’t have to know how to do this when you do it right your sight picture steadies up and after a good day of shooting you can feel the muscles that have been worked JUST like the muscles you may be concentrating on when at the Gym working on muscles specific exercises. 

Now SOME will tell you that you will loose back tension if you are not using it to pull the shot through… I personally disagree with that and have played with several different techniques and have felt like could maintain back tension with all off them..The problem is you may have to think about it a little more and it is harder to get into the sub conscious were this belongs 

I have been playing with what I would call a hybrid method and it’s kind of hard to put into words. Many coach that the weight of the bow should transfer from the fingers used to draw the bow to the fingers on the top of the handle eliciting a rotation during the transfer…. For me I tend to get weak during the transfer. I personally use my back tension to hold the weight and maintain it on the fingers used to draw the bow. While never wavering from that weight I rotate it with the fingers on the top part of the handle. I never really transfer the weight as much as I use the index finger as a fulcrum for the rotation. Since I never transfer it I never lose tension and I shoot a strong shot .... Most of the time:wink:

It’s working pretty darn well ... For me being perfect is part of the fun BUT as mentions leads to dissapointment .. What I like to strive for on the mental end is getting a routin that makes you KNOW without a doubt you can shoot a strong shot ... One you are POSITIVE of that you know the rest is only seperated from your ability to do it 60 times in a row...... When and if you don't or can't does not lead to disspointment because you KNOW you can .. you just failed to do it 1 or more times THAT day ..... but tommow is a new one that starts a new journey 

1/2 zen ... 1/2 ability through form and execution... You have to allow your mind to do what you have trained your body... but if your body is not trained it will not make a diffrence what the mind WANTS to do


----------

