# X-Bows pushed to be legalized for WI Bear /Turkey seasons



## Gritty

I am a Board of director for the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association. I wanted to get a better feel though I have my own oppinion on this but wanted to get some feedback and discussion on what the Wisconsin members here think about legalizing x-bos for the Turkey and Bear seasons... 

The Groups pushing for the legalization are the Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association .. The WI chapter of the NWTF and the WI chapter of SCI.. 

It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters

We are meeting this weekend to discuss these proposals and I believe this is nothing more than a foot in the door to the rest of big game hunting in WI meaning the Bowseason at some point.. This would be devastating to the bowseason and the clubs that support Bowhunting organizations... 

Please give me some feedback from real WI bowhunters ..and vote what you feel should happen


a Yes vote will mean you support x-bows for bear and turkey 

a No vote means you do not support x-bows for any season except for the elderly and the handicapped that we presently have


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## prostreetcamaro

I do not live there but I will say this. I do not feel that a crossbow gives a person any more advantage over a modern compound bow. They are big, heavy and hard to manuver. In general they arent much faster than todays compound bows. They have no more killing power either. The only advantage they have is they are already cocked. But is that really an advantage considering there size and weight? 

Let the bashing begin.


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## minnow

While I don't support x-bows during the regular archery season, (except for the handicapped and elderly) I'm not sure there would be a significant impact on the bear or turkey hunting. Bear can already be taken with either bow or rifle (or muzzleloader or slugs I imagine) and turkey can be taken with shotgun or bow. Adding x-bows to the mix probably wouldn't have much of an effect. 
In my opinion, people looking to use a x-bow during archery season are looking for an easy answer to the challenge. For bear and turkey, they already have an "easy" option, rifles and shotguns respectively.


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## Rooselk

Gritty said:


> It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters


I am not from Wisconsin. But as a member of the state bowhunting organization where I live I am in 100% agreement with your opinon on this issue. Good luck.


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## Gritty

I just think it will be devastating if it comes to the Deer season and this is just foot in the door politics,, IMHO

WI is labled a Lynch Pin State as if it falls to the manufactures push then the other midwestern states will follow ... Ohio Hunters feel free to chime in .. we hear it pretty much took care of your bow season.... Is this true??


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## jcsanders79-xt

I am not from Wisconsin but they legalized them here in TN for everyone (you have always been able to use them if handicaped) and I have personally seen twice why they shouldn't be used. 1) I had a guy raise one up on me hoping I was a deer I am just glad he didn't shoot, With any idiot having one we are going to eventually be wearing orange. 2)I also saw a guy take a shot at a doe 100yds away and not understand why he missed. I think if you allow them there needs to be some sort of education.


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## Bobmuley

Gritty said:


> ... Ohio Hunters feel free to chime in .. we hear it pretty much took care of your bow season.... Is this true??


Yep, bowhunting is pretty much dead in Ohio...:wink:


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## Gritty

Oh and Guys.. please keep this thread clean of bashing and any arguements... just vote and if you feel the need to give a reason be respectfull please.. and please keep this thread active as well.

Thanx


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## Bobmuley

Gritty said:


> Oh and Guys.. please keep this thread clean of bashing and any arguements... just vote and if you feel the need to give a reason be respectfull please.. and please keep this thread active as well.
> 
> Thanx


Is there the equivalent poll in the crossbow section? 

Respect is a two-way street...

What would Roy Case say?


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## One eye

Do not let it happen!! It is a method of slowly chipping away at your ARCHERY season! I will keep my OHIO comments to myself out of respect for the thread author.

The crossbow is not ARCHERY!

Dan


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## SET THE HOOK

im against it, nothing against them but everyone who does not bowhunt will now be going out and buying a crossbow to hunt deer, i dont think there a advantage...loud,heavy,not much faster than todays bows but it would definetly make the woods (public land busier) than normal during the bow hunting season. i think alot of non bow hunters think crossbows are better than they really are and might be taking alot of unethical shots at game.


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## Silver Pine

Gritty said:


> I just think it will be devastating if it comes to the Deer season and this is just foot in the door politics,, IMHO
> 
> WI is labled a Lynch Pin State as if it falls to the manufactures push then the other midwestern states will follow ... Ohio Hunters feel free to chime in .. we hear it pretty much took care of your bow season.... Is this true??



Devastating?? There's no evidence to suggest that. Xbows could bring more hunters into the sport.

More hunters = more voters.

More voters makes it less likely that the "Why can't I marry my poodle" people can restrict or outlaw hunting. Wisconsin hasn't been able to pass a CCW law because there is enough animal-rights and anti-firearm voters keeping the wrong polititions in office. We can always use more hunters.

Xbows are only another tool that can be used for hunting by hunters. Nothing more.

:cocktail:


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## crazy4hunting

While they do have there place as stated above i vote no. I really think it will bring out alot of folks that do not know the limatations of a crossbow. We are made to think(from movies and the like)that they are killing machines. I sure hope i am wrong and i know not everyone is like that, but i think you will see alot of guys not practicing or taking bad shots thinking its alot more like a gun then a bow.


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## cynic

I don't see why the dang compound was ever let into archery.. If you really want to be a bow hunter show a real bow. All this perpatrating saying that a 80% letoff is still archery equipment is nothing more than a feel good emotion based on a self perceive feel of superiority. Xbows do nothing to detract from archery season they will not affect those that wish to shoot a vertical xbow. 



Gritty said:


> It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters
> My opinion is that this shows the narrow mindedness of some bowhunters that lack the knowledge of the xbow
> 
> Please give me some feedback from *real *WI bowhunters ..and vote what you feel should happen
> 
> There are very few "real" bowhunters in the hunting arena, most now shoot the latest greatest technologically advanced high letoff contraptions that they still choose to call a bow


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## cynic

crazy4hunting said:


> While they do have there place as stated above i vote no. I really think it will bring out alot of folks that do not know the limatations of a crossbow. We are made to think(from movies and the like)that they are killing machines. I sure hope i am wrong and i know not everyone is like that, but i think you will see alot of guys not practicing or taking bad shots thinking its alot more like a gun then a bow.


Recent videos suggest that compounds are now moving to the 80-100yd mark.. Just what are the limitations going to be?


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## posco

cynic said:


> I don't see why the dang compound was ever let into archery.. If you really want to be a bow hunter show a real bow. All this perpatrating saying that a 80% letoff is still archery equipment is nothing more than a feel good emotion based on a self perceive feel of superiority. Xbows do nothing to detract from archery season they will not affect those that wish to shoot a vertical xbow.


It's gonna put more hunters in the woods during bow season and will increase competition. That's where the rub lay.


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## ozdog

Gritty said:


> I just think it will be devastating if it comes to the Deer season and this is just foot in the door politics,, IMHO
> 
> WI is labled a Lynch Pin State as if it falls to the manufactures push then the other midwestern states will follow ... Ohio Hunters feel free to chime in .. we hear it pretty much took care of your bow season.... Is this true??


I'm not sure what you mean, took care of our season?
We've got bigger fish to fry than crossbows. 
Hell man, the sky won't fall if WI lets you hunt with Xbows.


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## 137buck

the only way a xbow should be allowed is when firearms are allowed, keep archery season strictly the way it is.


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## twogun

One eye said:


> Do not let it happen!! It is a method of slowly chipping away at your ARCHERY season! * I will keep my OHIO comments to myself* out of respect for the thread author.
> 
> The crossbow is not ARCHERY!
> 
> Dan


Ohio archery hunters are gaining opportunities more and more. Our season has expanded and bowhunters enjoy increased bag limits that firearms hunters don't. Bowhunting in Ohio is alive and well and is thriving. Noone can pove otherwise.


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## kelfonk

I am a bowhunter from WI. I feel the crossbow should be permited for use in bowhunting. If not for the single reason of increasing our dwindling number of hunters to help preserve our sport in the future. Why would anyone want to deny someone the opportunity to enjoy the sport we all enjoy so much.


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## willie

You know something?

You should have put a "Who cares" as a choice.

Most hunters don't really care one way or the other. They just want to go hunting and don't worry about what someone else is shooting/hunting with.


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## BigBirdVA

Here we go again............:darkbeer:


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## BigBirdVA

twogun said:


> Ohio archery hunters are gaining opportunities more and more. Our season has expanded and bowhunters enjoy increased bag limits that firearms hunters don't. Bowhunting in Ohio is alive and well and is thriving. Noone can pove otherwise.


Bowhunting is the majority season holder there. So people are going to say they would rather have a minority season than let xbows in?  I worried all that crap here in VA before they were legal for all. Guess what? Nothing happened. 

Typical anti xbow thread.........Much ado about nothing.


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## TXWhackMaster

jcsanders79-xt said:


> I am not from Wisconsin but they legalized them here in TN for everyone (you have always been able to use them if handicaped) and I have personally seen twice why they shouldn't be used. 1) I had a guy raise one up on me hoping I was a deer I am just glad he didn't shoot, With any idiot having one we are going to eventually be wearing orange. 2)I also saw a guy take a shot at a doe 100yds away and not understand why he missed. I think if you allow them there needs to be some sort of education.


Plenty of similar examples with compounds, long bows or recurves. It's not unique to crossbow hunters.


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## thirdypointer

I'm from Wi. and i think any hunt that allows the use of a gun or rifle should also allow the use of a more "primative" weapon. If shotguns are allowed for turkey, a x-bow will be even more challenging. Hell, even for deer during the bow season is o.k. with me! I think my Mathews makes it to easy to shoot deer also and have considered going to a recurve for more of a challenge. I don't think everyone would put their compounds down for a x-bow because of it being easier. I love my bow, but like to shoot my dads ten point also, and would love the opportunity to hunt with it for something really challenging like turkeys!


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## TXWhackMaster

BigBirdVA said:


> Bowhunting is the majority season holder there. So people are going to say they would rather have a minority season than let xbows in?  I worried all that crap here in VA before they were legal for all. Guess what? Nothing happened.
> 
> Typical anti xbow thread.........Much ado about nothing.


Yea, it's similar to the scare tactics used to fight concealed carry.


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## williamcr

I dont live there either but I dontv like cross bows.


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## willie

Gritty,

Here a bird that my son took last year. He was hunting out of a pop up blind.

Do you actually believe it would have been any harder for him to have killed it with a compound bow out of that same blind?

He is an excellent shot with either piece of archery equipmnet - His PSE X Force or the Ten Point crossbow.










My advice to you is to quit being so exclusionary on another piece of archery equipment. There will come a day that all archers will have to stand together to stave off the anti-hunters and maybe even try to keep gun hunters out of the early season.

The more you have in your ranks the better chance you will have. Embrace your fellow archery hunters, don't shun them..


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## dreaming

Bear, Turkey and Small game are alright by me, they can be taken by bow or gun during their seasons, so why not? Maybe during late season when the bowhunter count in the woods is down, maybe during early season to increase hunting #'s. Don't think they'll kill all the deer if hundreds of thousands of gun hunters don't.


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## DougKMN

willie said:


> Gritty,
> 
> Here a bird that my son took last year. He was hunting out of a pop up blind.
> 
> Do you actually believe it would have been any harder for him to have killed it with a compound bow out of that same blind?
> 
> He is an excellent shot with either piece of archery equipmnet - His PSE X Force or the Ten Point crossbow.
> 
> 
> *My advice to you is to quit being so exclusionary on another piece of archery equipment. There will come a day that all archers will have to stand together to stave off the anti-hunters and maybe even try to keep gun hunters out of the early season.
> 
> The more you have in your ranks the better chance you will have. Embrace your fellow archery hunters, don't shun them..*


This is one reason why I don't favor excluding those wishing to carry a crossbow. IMO, antihunters are going to work by chipping away our rights, and personally, I think they will go after bowhunters first. There are a couple of reasons for this: 1) There are less bowhunters to fight back 2) Bows are seen as a primitive (and therefor less efficient/more likely to wound) Just look at the state (MI?) that has a member of the wildlife commission that is trying to get rid of BOWhunters, he claims that bows are not capable of cleanly killing and have a higher wounding rate. Just look at the pictures out there of deer with arrows sticking out of them. 

You better believe that when the fecal matter hits the fan, it will be the bowhunters that go down first.

Strength in numbers. I'm sure there are a large number of firearms-only hunters that wouldn't care if bowhunting suddenly went away. And to be completely honest, part of me feels some of you would deserve it for being so exclusionary.


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## compoundpuller

*X-bows*

Arkansas legalized crossbows years ago with no regrets; crossbows has increased hunters numbers for years in our state and it has been proven that xbows hunters has not damaged the deer herd at all; with the number of hunters declining, you better take a second look at xbows;...:darkbeer:


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## ga_Game_hunter

cynic said:


> I don't see why the dang compound was ever let into archery.. If you really want to be a bow hunter show a real bow.


Agreed 100%. I love it how some of these compound people think that is WHAT archery is. Well it isnt. True Archery is using a long bow. So in my opinion compound users have no right to say crossbows should not be allowed. I dont see all the long bow people bashing compounds left and right. Oh yeah, because they dont care!! The only compound users that care are the ones who dont want to give up any of their woods to let anyone else hunt.

So I voted YES, crossbows should be legalized if compounds are.


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## safetreehunt

I've done some of my own research on this subject for the use of crossbows during archery season in Michigan. After all the hoopla, ranting and raving, the bottom lines comes down to the simple fact that bowhunters don't want to share their season. There is really no other valid reason than this.

What crossbows will do is allow more hunters to get into hunting and bring more revenue to the states wildlife management system through license fees.

What crossbows won't do is overcrowd the bowhunters or wound more deer.

Technically the crossbow is not a lot different than todays high tech compound bow, except you have to draw the bow. Accuracy, range and other technological arguments dont' wash. 

This entire debate comes down to only the fact that bowhunters don't want to share.


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## willie

compoundpuller said:


> Arkansas legalized crossbows years ago with no regrets; crossbows has increased hunters numbers for years in our state and it has been proven that xbows hunters has not damaged the deer herd at all; with the number of hunters declining, you better take a second look at xbows;...:darkbeer:



That same scenario is repeated in state after state after state.

The gloom and doom that the anti-crossbow naysayers have said would happen has not happened. In fact, just the opposite as you have said. Crossbows have been a win-win in these states.

Crossbows are coming - The states have two problems:

1) Too many deer (especially in urban areas)

2) Not enough hunters

The crossbow is a partial answer to both problems..

Now, you all can accept them or fight tooth and nail and end up with all of hunting loosing.


.


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## MNmike

*Question for Gritty*

Is it to include crossbows in a archery season?

Or is it to include crossbows into the firearms season?

Or is it to create it's own season?


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## madarchery

I have no problem with the x-bow during gun season, but not archery season.

1 In WI archery season is not declining in numbers. Its been steadily growing so the reason to bring in more hunters is pointless.

2 Its not the power, the letoff, its the ability to get game close and be able to draw on them. The x-bow eliminates the most dificult part.

3 already legal for handicap and all over age 65.

So with these above points it seems unneeded to introduce them to archery seasons. Well unless you sell or manufacter them. And to say to increase hunting numbers. I don't think you would be gaining numbers of hunters. may be more "archers" but that seems to be no problem here with standard equipment. Now to leagalize them to be used with muzzleloaders and change muzzle loader season to a primative weapons season I can go along with.

Doug


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## slabtown

A couple posts have gotten right to the heart of this. I am a WI bowhunter, and I use a compound. If I am honest, my first reaction is that I don't want to see crossbows legal, but that was my reaction to the early gun seasons, and the fall turkey season too. I also don't like to see other hunters gain permission to hunt the farms I do, even though I don't own land and appreciate the generosity of landowners that allow hunting. It all comes down to the "not in my backyard" mentality. I think it is great for the sport to increase hunter numbers, as long as they are not interfering with my hunt – very selfish and short-sighted on my part. In fact, it would be great if no one bowhunted Western WI but me – kidding of course.

For the long-term health of our sport (hunting), we should probably allow the use of crossbows. I cringe as I write that, but would rather see them legalized than to lose all support for hunting. Allowing crossbows would increase hunter numbers somewhat (not sure if it would even be noticed though), and increase support for what we do. Surely some current bowhunters would switch. I don’t buy the argument that crossbows are no more effective than compounds. That may be the case in regards to range and kinetic energy, but I think the hardest part to killing a deer with a bow is drawing it back undetected. 

Sorry for the long post but I did not vote because my gut tells me to vote one way, and logic tells me to vote another way.


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## Hanson71

*Why??*

Why should we allow able bodied hunters to use x-bows during ARCHERY season? With a BOW you have to DRAW the arrow back, use "open" sights, maintain proper shooting form, and then release the arrow and follow thru without being detected. With a X-bow; pull bolt back and lock in place to begin hunt, see intended target, put cross-hairs from SCOPE on target, stabilize x-bow on leg, brach, or stand (if you want), and pull trigger. Is there a difference? Heck yes. I believe elderly and disabled hunters should be allowed use of x-bows for whatever medical problems they have. But to have a perfectly healthy individual say he would rather use a x-bow over a bow exhibits shear laziness. 

Where is the argument of WHY an able bodied hunter needs to use a x-bow???? It can't really be to gain more hunters, if these people really had the desire and heart to go hunting during archery season, they already would be IMO.
If it's not broke don't fix it.


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## ga_Game_hunter

Hanson71 said:


> Why should we allow able bodied hunters to use x-bows during ARCHERY season? With a BOW you have to DRAW the arrow back, use "open" sights, maintain proper shooting form, and then release the arrow and follow thru without being detected. With a X-bow; pull bolt back and lock in place to begin hunt, see intended target, put cross-hairs from SCOPE on target, stabilize x-bow on leg, brach, or stand (if you want), and pull trigger.


Then why not suggest allowing crossbows with only open sights and outlaw magnification scopes instead of saying they just shouldnt be allowed? It wouldnt matter though, compound users just dont want to share the woods.


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## willie

Hanson71 said:


> .............. But to have a perfectly healthy individual say he would rather use a x-bow over a bow exhibits shear laziness.
> 
> Where is the argument of WHY an able bodied hunter needs to use a x-bow???? It can't really be to gain more hunters, if these people really had the desire and heart to go hunting during archery season, they already would be IMO.


*Need?* Where is the type of hunting we do based on our *NEEDS*?

Do you *NEED* a compound in order to bowhunt or do you use one because you *WANT* to?



> If it's not broke don't fix it


I heard that back in the early 70 when Hollis Allen's "arrow launchuing device" was being introduced into archery seasons. Do you think we *"NEEDED" *that "compound bow" then? Do we *NEED* it now?



.


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## willie

madarchery said:


> I have no problem with the x-bow during gun season, but not archery season.
> 
> 1 In WI archery season is not declining in numbers. Its been steadily growing so the reason to bring in more hunters is pointless.


Can you point me to data that says Wisconsin hunter numbers are "steadily growing". If they are they are bucking the nationwide trend.



> 2 Its not the power, the letoff, its the ability to get game close and be able to draw on them. The x-bow eliminates the most dificult part.


You are partly right. The difficult part of any hunt is to get within range of the deer. The much ballyhooed "draw" is a matter of a learned technique. I guess we need to ban the pop up blinds as that hides "the draw" of a bowhunter. Heck, let's ban high let off compounds as a bowhunter can draw the bow and hold when he first sees the deer and wait until it hits his shooting lane. Let's ban getting up over 15 foot up as that keeps a deer from seeing your draw. Make it a requirement that the only time we can draw is when a deer is looking at us. None of that waiting until he walks by, drawing and shooting him at a quartering away angle. None of that drawing when the deer is looking away or has it's head behind a tree or a bush.



> 3 already legal for handicap and all over age 65


.

So far, so good. Why not everyone?



> So with these above points it seems unneeded to introduce them to archery seasons. Well unless you sell or manufacter them.


Crossbow manufacturers are selling them as fast as they can make them now. Even the vertical bow companies have ben taking notice. Bowtech just got into the horizontal market.



> And to say to increase hunting numbers. I don't think you would be gaining numbers of hunters. may be more "archers" but that seems to be no problem here with standard equipment.


Stats from other states says you are wrong.



> Now to leagalize them to be used with muzzleloaders and change muzzle loader season to a primative weapons season I can go along with.


Why? They are not guns.



.


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## Hanson71

Older than Dirt, 

You ask what kind of hunting we do based on needs? Probably to eat.
Yes need, want has already been established.

I agree with MAD ARCHERY.


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## BigBirdVA

There are a lot of people that may not meet the handicapped requirement but can't shoot a compound effectively. So they're just supposed to quit bow season or Doctor shop till they get one to sign the form? And exactly what does this do good for archery in general? Other than eliminate hunters it does nothing. If archery is supposed to be hard then lets eliminate compounds and see how many hunt then.


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## BigBirdVA

Hanson71 said:


> .............I agree with MAD ARCHERY.


You can agree with whoever you want the fact remains that the various game departments are looking at it from a bigger viewpoint and seeing something a lot different. Xbows are coming like it or not. And after they do give it a year and you'll be see what we all keep saying over and over is true, much ado over nothing. Been there done that.


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## CWG

Gritty said:


> I am a Board of director for the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association.
> 
> It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters



wow. Two sentences say it all.
How could bringing more hunters into a diminishing sport hurt anything?
Archery should not be a a sport of elitists.
I started out with a crossbow, and saw the light so to speak.
I'd no more support banning crossbows than spinning equipment (fishing hardware legislation)


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## madarchery

Well willie. I am unable to locate the stats. But they are published in the dnr website and the WI outdoor news had it published a few issues ago. I am unable to dog it up. But its there. Arhcer numbers and kill sbesides are record numbers.

Hunters in general maybe down overall. But I see no non hunter going yuppie x-bows I am going to start hunting.

Not a gun? Well this argument has merit on both sides. Its not a gun and its not a bow. Its an x-bow. A primitive weapon that has potential to kill game and be alot of fun. Since we have an archery season it does not belong. If we formed a primitive season yep good to go. Along with bows, muzzleloaders, x-bows, atlas, etc. But untill its formed leave it for the disabled.

In WI where the public land is getting more difficult to get a quality hunt and great public resentment because of this. I do not think recruiting more hunters would be benificail. I see it as adding more fuel to the fire. Untill we can manage the system we have I see no need and really not much want to this x-bow rule.

This has been time and time again proposed by industry to further there product. They have tried to skip thru the back door before and will try angles untill they find a way. Will it happen more then likely. Money talks esp. to politicians. Is it a good idea to include in archery? NO.

Only thing I would change would make it easier to qualify for the disabled permits. There are alot of hoops and short term disability I hear does not count.It should. Simple test. You cant pull back 40# at the reg station you get the permit. Simple.


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## Ryan

My opinion is... the more choices we have, as far as weapons go, the more hunters. More hunters is good.

I'd much rather see them adding choices, instead of taking them away.


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## Medicine Bow

Crossbows have been legal during archery season in Wyoming since before I moved here 11 years ago. They are a total non-issue, at least for the type of ground hunting we do here. I have never seen another hunter carrying one, and the only people I know who have admitted to using them were recovering from some type of shoulder injury. I bought one in 2004 when it looked like my gun season was going to get hosed. What a bunch of unwieldy junk. It was a pain in the butt to practice with, was not accurate, and I put it in the closet. This year I bought a compound, and can’t believe what a better implement it is in terms of accuracy and stealth. I gave the crossbow to a friend recovering from shoulder surgery. Even if a change in the law results in a minor blip in crossbows, in the long run I don’t think it would have any noticeable impact on the sport of archery hunting or game populations.


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## stinky1

I don't like either of the choices you have for the poll so I'm adding one. Keep it the way it is. Crossbows for disabled and seniors. You might want to post this on bowsite.com too.


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## Scotty C

Why does every bowhunter say that it wil hurt archery hunting if the crossbow is approved? I am a die hard bowhunter but I am not afraid of something different. It will not be the end of archery hunting if more and more states allow crossbow hunting!!


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## BigBirdVA

stinky1 said:


> I don't like either of the choices you have for the poll so I'm adding one. Keep it the way it is. Crossbows for disabled and seniors. You might want to post this on bowsite.com too.


I'm sure it's probably already on the PBA site........ err..... I mean the Bowsite.


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## Bow_Rep

My own opinion: Allow X-bows for a primitive weapon deer season. Let the handicapped and the aged (over 55 YO) use a X-bow for the current archery deer hunting. Regarding the use of X-Bows for turkey and bear hunting, I say allow the permit holder to choose whatever weapon floats his boat. 

Having stated that, do I believe that allowing crossbows for the general archery season would negatively impact the sport? *No*

Allowing crossbows would bring more participation to the sport. You would likely see an increase over time and you would likely see a small percentage of current archers switch over to a crossbow. People are creatures that will always take the easy way out if given the choice. That is in a nutshell why many gun hunters do not bowhunt. Allowing the crossbow would bring these types into the game. It is also the very reason why many current archers would switch over, it's easier. 

Does the crossbow give the hunter significant advantage while afield? Yes and no. There is minimal movement associated with execution of the shot using the crossbow comparatively. There is no holding of the string and this is a decided advantage. The trade-off is one of noise. Crossbows are notoriously loud. Many darned near sound like a 22RF going off. Most deer much beyond 20 yards will react negatively to this arrow release and can/will move their kill zone out of the arrow's path. With the way that all too many hunters around this place talk, 40, 50 and even 60 yard shots are doable using their compounds. Try that with a crossbow and the deer will be halfway into the next county before the arrow arrives in most instances.


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## BigBirdVA

Scotty C said:


> Why does every bowhunter say that it wil hurt archery hunting if the crossbow is approved? I am a die hard bowhunter but I am not afraid of something different. It will not be the end of archery hunting if more and more states allow crossbow hunting!!


Just look at the horrors Ohio is forced to endure. Bow is what, 4 + times longer than gun season? That's horrible! Why do they even bother to get up in the morning? :darkbeer:


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## J. Wesbrock

Everyone should have seen this coming when they legalized crossguns for the 65+ crowd. That piece of legislation had nothing to do with heloing senior citizens and everything to do with getting another foot in the door. It's a page from the ARA and gun-grabber's handbook. Lie about your true intentions while you slowly inch your way in. You can't appease these people, so fight them tooth and nail.


----------



## eyedoc

Virginia legalized the used of crossbows last year. In the past 2 years I have yet to see anyone in the woods during archery season with a crossbow. I honestly do not think it will affect hunting pressure or numbers one bit. I havent seen any effect here in Virginia.


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## BigBirdVA

eyedoc said:


> Virginia legalized the used of crossbows last year. In the past 2 years I have yet to see anyone in the woods during archery season with a crossbow. I honestly do not think it will affect hunting pressure or numbers one bit. I haven't seen any effect here in Virginia.


We picked up about 10,000 - 15,000 xbow license sales statewide. But since there is no way of knowing if some of those are also compound license holders (VA. has a different license for xbow and other archery) we'll never know exactly. Still numbers count and if it increases the ranks of those slinging arrows it can't be bad. I went on a public land hunt last year and saw 3 other xbow hunters out of 75 total there. I saw 1 compound hunter while actually walking in the woods, the rest in the parking area.


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## Hanson71

Boomerangs, blow-guns, and sling shots are also effective forms of taking game, when can we get seasons for these??? Just joking. Seriously, X-bows and bows are not the same and should be treated as separate just for that fact. You can't say that hunting with a x-bow is not easier (admit it, at least a little bit) than with a bow. Maybe Staples could sponsor the season!!j/k


----------



## Target Tony

i do not live in WI so i really cant say what should or shouldnt be voted into your state. that is for WI bowhunters to decide.:wink:

but i will say that i was part of the X bow debate back in Ohio when they first brought up the idea. so many of us Bowhunters thought it would ruin all hunting and somehow demeen our bowhunting tradition.

nothing could have been further from the truth. 

we acted out of stupidity and greed by saying x bows would ruin our bow season. we actually didnt want more bowhunters in the woods at all. we were afraid that because a x bow is much simpler to learn to use, that there would be a huge rush of people to buy them and go bowhunting. we said oh its a gun and not a real bow. 

again nothing could have been further from the truth.

once this regulation passed in Ohio what we found out is that the first few years i never even saw a guy with a X bow. they are loud when you shoot them so a second shot at most game is not even possible. they are not a long range weapon. the guys that use them are just as passionate about hunting as we are. and the biggest factor is that many older guys that now cant draw a bow are able to get out and hunt deer.

how can sharing a bow season with guys that love to hunt be bad?

oh by the way i ended up shooting a nice doe with crossbow back in Ohio in 1986. i hadnt been able to practice with my bow since i was in the Military. so i went home to Ohio on leave to go overseas. it was during the bow season and my dad asked me if i was going to bowhunt. when i explained i had even shot my bow for a couple years, he said a buddy would lend me his Xbow so i could go.

upon shooting this xbow i found out real quick that you must estimate range just like bow hunting. because if your off 5 or 6 yards you can miss a deer. i also found they are noisey when they go off and a pain to cock and load. but once you get past that they are accurate. i also found out i wasnt going to be shooting over 30 yards. i ended up making a nice shot 20 yard shot while stalking on public land that time when i was home on leave.

from X bow hater to X bow user i found out that allowing X bows in Ohio didnt hurt the bow season at all. but i sure has helped hunter numbers grow in Ohio and has helped a lot of guys get out and hunt when they might not have been able to.

Shoot Strong
Tony


----------



## DougKMN

Hanson71 said:


> Why should we allow able bodied hunters to use x-bows during ARCHERY season? With a BOW you have to DRAW the arrow back, use "open" sights, maintain proper shooting form, and then release the arrow and follow thru without being detected. With a X-bow; pull bolt back and lock in place to begin hunt, see intended target, put cross-hairs from SCOPE on target, stabilize x-bow on leg, brach, or stand (if you want), and pull trigger. Is there a difference? Heck yes. I believe elderly and disabled hunters should be allowed use of x-bows for whatever medical problems they have. But to have a perfectly healthy individual say he would rather use a x-bow over a bow exhibits shear laziness.
> 
> Where is the argument of WHY an able bodied hunter needs to use a x-bow???? It can't really be to gain more hunters, if these people really had the desire and heart to go hunting during archery season, they already would be IMO.
> If it's not broke don't fix it.



Uhm....You can put dot sights and scopes on compounds as well. They can have magnified peeps as well. High-let off nearly makes the "no need to hold the draw" argument moot, and the use of blinds and/or treestands makes the "draw on game" argument moot.


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## madarchery

The purpose of the thread was to see if WI was in favor and if it was needed. 

Most point constantly hashed around are not points that make an argument in WI. Archery numbers are up in sales and in kills.

Allowed for 55 and older and for disabled.


Do not see how options are always good. I hear of few that are not able to partake in the archery hunt.


Whats the point???

There are many other hunting methods that could be implemented that I am glad they are not. Do we make everything goes a rule in every state???


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## TXWhackMaster

Hanson71 said:


> .... You can't say that hunting with a x-bow is not easier (admit it, at least a little bit) than with a bow. Maybe Staples could sponsor the season!!j/k


It's different but not easier. I've hunted hogs with a crossbow twice. After having done it, once on the ground and once in a tree, I'd much rather use a compound than a crossbow.


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## Hickory Creek Stalker

willie said:


> Gritty,
> 
> Here a bird that my son took last year. He was hunting out of a pop up blind.
> 
> Do you actually believe it would have been any harder for him to have killed it with a compound bow out of that same blind?
> 
> He is an excellent shot with either piece of archery equipmnet - His PSE X Force or the Ten Point crossbow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My advice to you is to quit being so exclusionary on another piece of archery equipment. There will come a day that all archers will have to stand together to stave off the anti-hunters and maybe even try to keep gun hunters out of the early season.
> 
> The more you have in your ranks the better chance you will have. Embrace your fellow archery hunters, don't shun them..



I think you are one of the wiser ones around here sir.


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## cynic

You guys can be so silly sometimes. How many that feel the xbow will negativley effect the archery season have ever tried to hunt with one?


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## twogun

J. Wesbrock said:


> Everyone should have seen this coming when they legalized crossguns for the 65+ crowd. That piece of legislation had nothing to do with heloing senior citizens and everything to do with getting another foot in the door. It's a page from the ARA and gun-grabber's handbook. Lie about your true intentions while you slowly inch your way in. You can't appease these people, so fight them tooth and nail.



Actually it all started about 100 years ago when pesky hunters sought sport hunting seasons. Then those traditional bowhunters wanted to be included and then had the gaul to want a seperate season. Then came the compound hunters and other groups and/or seasons along the way. Maybe we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble and never given an inch at the very beginning. That sure would have prevented a lot of problems huh?


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## Jim C

One eye said:


> Do not let it happen!! It is a method of slowly chipping away at your ARCHERY season! I will keep my OHIO comments to myself out of respect for the thread author.
> 
> The crossbow is not ARCHERY!
> 
> Dan



Nonsense-crossbows are as much archery as a 80% letoff compound with a trigger release. Dividing bowhunters due to the selfish egos of some compound hunters is bad for hunting in general


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## Bow_Rep

Deer license data for 2006 (includes historic figures also) CLICK HERE

Wish that I could have found older historical numbers. I could have sworn that WI had archery license sales in the 200K+ range from about 86-90.


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## bcowette

Honestly I believe that someone should be able to hunt with what they chose as long as it has the ability to make a clean humane kill. A cross bow doesnt have any advantage over a bow anymore anyways. My PSE X Force pumps out my 375 grain arrows around 330 FPS and I can hold 4-5" groups at 50 yards. I cant imagine that a crossbow can be any better.


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## rattus58

Hi Gritty... 

Why do you think that crossbows are a loss for archers? I'm coming into this discussion completely neutral. I'm here trying to gain crossbow use for Hawaii in any form and spend many many hours studying the issues around crossbows.

Without getting into the discussion of differences or comparisons, why philosophically would anyone today want to create more divisiveness in hunter ranks and philosophically, why do you care what I hunt with? I don't know what you shoot, but I hunt with a longbow or recurve only. Why would I care that you may use a compound bow or crossbow? Their likeness compared to the longbow/recurve is virtually identical (the drawing is a red herring and not worth discussing.. that's been beat to death without merit). Its to the longbow and recurve that these comparisons should be made... and as we have all seen its been good for archery to have compounds allowed. Its good for archery to have crossbows allowed.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Bow_Rep

rattus58 said:


> Hi Gritty...
> 
> why philosophically would anyone today want to create more divisiveness in hunter ranks and philosophically, why do you care what I hunt with?


Then you definitely don't want to mention "bait" around him.


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## rattus58

Bow_Rep said:


> Then you definitely don't want to mention "bait" around him.


I don't?.... :grin: Well maybe not to hijack this thread... but the de-bait would be fun for me.... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Per48R

I live in WI and have bowhunted for over 20 years. Am a life member of Wis c. Bowhuters Ass.
I think WBH needs to get crossbows fit into existing seasons OTHER than bow season. If WBH keeps saying no, someone will work around them. There is big money to be made with crossbow sales. Especially since the muzzleloader sales are slowing.


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## aceoky

*Huh??*



> It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters


Exactly what would bowhunters "lose" (in your opinion?) What exactly that they do now would they not be allowed to do IF this happens??

No one is "forcing" anyone to use them correct? Only one more choice (along with long bows recurves, and compounds) correct??



Thanks in advance.


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## aceoky

Hanson71 said:


> Boomerangs, blow-guns, and sling shots are also effective forms of taking game, when can we get seasons for these??? Just joking. Seriously, X-bows and bows are not the same and should be treated as separate just for that fact. You can't say that hunting with a x-bow is not easier (admit it, at least a little bit) than with a bow. Maybe Staples could sponsor the season!!j/k


Camo makes it "easier" (at least a little bit admit it), so do using tree stands and ground blinds.......WHY do hunters use them? To make the DRAW without being easily detected.....so unless you're hunting on the ground with NO blinds then don't act like drawing from a scent controlled ground blind or 20 ft (or more) up a tree isn't an advantage and done to make drawing easier.....so "drawing" with a bow isn't really an issue (much less what some try to claim)...

How about using wrist strap release aids? Easier ......without a doubt! SO WHAT? Where was the outcry about them?

Compounds use mechanical aid to help hold the draw weight FOR the archery hunter.......so do crossbows.......SO WHAT?? Why do some readily accept that and then fight with other fellow hunters over a small percentage of weight being held by the archery hunter? It's pure hypocrisy to do so!

And oh yes.....compounds ARE much easier than long bows, but since 90% already use them during archery seasons, some seem to ignore that fact......

"Easier" on some things doesn't matter anyway......"easier to shoot" doesn't mean "squat" UNLESS you can get within archery range of a big game animal....period....that's hunting and where woodsmanship skills matter! 

Weapons don't replace that, doubly true in archery hunting......


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## rattus58

Why in seasons other than archery? It's a bow no different than a compound. It shoots an arrow, just like you do. It shoots no faster than the fastest compounds. It has no gain in optics, with compounds now able to utilze 6 power scopes, 85% letoff, wrist release and trigger systems, and two forms of suspension systems for compounds... one hanging, one a collapsible bow arm brace... plus the ability to attach laser rangefinders... c'mon... let's get real.

This attitude of some compound shooters that they own the season is really condescending. When you compare the compound to longbows and recurves, their disadvantage to the compound is gigantic... and when compound shooters or supporters start whining about the crossbow, makes them look like sissies actually. I say this, by the way, because I have yet to hear from a "traditional style" bow shooter complain about compounds or crossbows.

Archers include all forms of archery. Longbows, recurves, compounds, and crossbows are all bows and all belong together. Not only that, all archers need to unify as has been uttered over and over. Hunters are all in this together. We don't need to be segregating ourselves and creating animosities unnecessarily. 

I agree with the others that point out that unity amongst hunters is paramount for us today. We are losing hunters overall in most states. Here in Hawaii, our license sales have dropped 20% over 3 years. It is similar in a lot of other states. Bringing people together is and should be the goal for all of us.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## madarchery

I do not think its the use of x-bows that reaqlly drives me nuts. Its the industry backdoor tactics that irritates me. If the hunters of WI want the x-bow and the public polls support it then fine.

But to play politics and the money game playing on fear of hunter # dropping, animal populations going out of control, and saying that this will help and then to play the money game greasing the hands of politions and clubs to get on board irritates me. 

Be honest and public vote. What it is it is then. I can live with that. But past poles from a year or so ago showed great dissaproval of it. So thats that.

I WISH!!

And to boost public numbers. No way. There are many ways to do that, that will make huge differences. Ease of laws, availability of tags,price of tags,having a quality area to hunt,availability of land being number 1!!


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## rattus58

Madarchery... You say "But to play politics and the money game playing on fear of hunter # dropping, animal populations going out of control, and saying that this will help and then to play the money game greasing the hands of politions and clubs to get on board irritates me."

Please tell me what you mean? You mean hunter numbers are going up in your state? I don't know about animal populations in your state, but there growing in many. Now this money game, tell me about that. You have evidence of bribery? That's what greasing means to most of us. What politicians do you know receive money from Crossbow manufacturers? What Clubs get money from manufacturers do you know? That's of interest to me, because there are some politicians and clubs I'd love to have the manufacturers send money too.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## madarchery

Well archer numbers are up. The archery kill is up. There was a link a while back. x-bows are not going to make much difference as everyone has been saying that now has them. So to say they will increase participation and increase the kill. Not likely to any great amount. And for industry to state that as a reason for them is no more a lie then the other side claiming there numbers.

As far as the money. I have no proof. But there must be reasons why certain politicians take up the cause for x-bows. And now gaining support from clubs to help them with there cause. No one does stuff for free. Somewhere there is payment in one form or another.

Here in WI we are trying to get the head of the dnr out of the gov. hands. That should be step one. After that if there is a true calling for the x-bow hunters would be able to bring it up at spring hearings and if enough support to a public vote. If it channels thru this then if the dnr says go ahead. Fine. But as its set up now the head dnr guy is appointed by the gov. Who frankly never hunted seldom fished except when he was a kid and was head of transportation. Now head of dnr. So yeah I say a little money to certain campaingn can get you a few votes.


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## aceoky

> As far as the money. I have no proof. But there must be reasons why certain politicians take up the cause for x-bows. And now gaining support from clubs to help them with there cause. No one does stuff for free. Somewhere there is payment in one form or another.


"Payment' is *more* choice and opportunity.......no more and no less! 

It's absurd to claim by increasing choice and opportunity, numbers won't likely grow!!

IF that were true, long bow archery hunters would be the majority everywhere, NOT compound archery hunters! We all know the truth there!

Again NO one is "forced" to switch to a crossbow, for anyone to insult other's choices is counter-productive and only harms US as archery hunters!

I'm not a crossbow hunter never have been, but I'm not so foolish as to claim they're "the greatest threat to bow hunting" either.......

Selfish bow hunters along with AR and Anti Hunting groups fit that description very well indeed........crossbows are just another way to send a broad head tipped arrow at big game, NO different than any other archery weapon to "pretend" it's more or less is absurd and foolish IMO!


----------



## madarchery

Right now untill the head of the dnr has reestablished the ability to appoint the head I will be against all major contorversal rule changes. I want biologists to look at the future of all wildlife managment issues. After its done if there is public suport I wil then be able to embrace the rule changes.

But untill then its nothing but political manuvering playing with clubs of power. Sad that the bear and turkey clubs have more clout then the deer clubs right now. So much argument with in the deer club ranks there are so many managment views that they each formed there own club thus weaking there views. All because they do not trust the political decision making in regards to wildlfe managment. We need to have a centered head of wildlife managment that has the knowledge to manage wildlfe matters.

And for those of you out of state guys who think no big deal let it in. The national trends yada, yada. Were not national. Were localized and this is a local decision. We are bucking national trends in areas. We also have the cwd thing and other unique variances to just say, they did it no big deal.

I want research for WI.


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## rattus58

madarchery said:


> As far as the money. I have no proof. But there must be reasons why certain politicians take up the cause for x-bows. And now gaining support from clubs to help them with there cause. No one does stuff for free. Somewhere there is payment in one form or another.


Hi Madarchery.... I support crossbows on philosophical reasons and much study. I have been talking to every politician I can to educate them on the issue of crossbows as I can. Fortunately for me, I got to most before anyone else has, so I'm the first they've heard about anything to do with bows. First come first served, in this case... 

By the way I don't own, shoot, or have any interest in crossbows other than to get them into our seasons here in Hawaii. By the way, most all archers here support crossbows in the archery season.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Hanson71

*?*



rattus58 said:


> .... I support crossbows on philosophical reasons and much study.


Can you elaborate on this please?


----------



## Bow_Rep

These were the historic numbers that I was looking for. It covers license sales in WI from 1966-2003. 

DNR RECORDS

What I found interesting is that you can see the interest in archery hunting that took off in '72-73 with the advent of reasonably priced compound bows (and the movie "Deliverance" didn't hurt either). Then you can kind of see the impact of the movie "Rambo" in 1982.

It wasn't until 1985 that archers in Wisconsin killed more deer with the bow than there were reported deer/car collisions! 40,000+!! Now, the archery hunters are killing over twice as many deer as they did in 1985 and the seasons have really not been cut back at all unless you count the T-Zone hunts. 

WI is a state where hunters simply cannot kill as many deer as Ma Nature can produce each year. That is a darned big problem too.


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## rattus58

Elaborate on what? That I've spent three months looking into crossbow regulations for every state in the nation. That I've talked to many archers, crossbow shooters, and game departments?

Philosophically? Whats to elaborate on that? Crossbows have been around for hundreds if not close to a thousand years? That they were in use alongside longbows and recurves through the centuries? That a long bow and a cross bow share identical means of powering the arrow? That both longbow and crossbow depend upon the limbs of a bow for power, a string for propulsion, and an arrow for delivery? What's philosophical about that? The crossbow has been an archery implement for centuries and for it to be now "excluded" is preposterous and ludicrous.

As I've stated before, it seems that it is the compound shooter that is protesting the most, and you have to ask why? What are they so afraid of? There is absolutely no reason to exclude the crossbow from an archery only season... other than maybe some elitists attitudes of some that they "own" the archery season to the exclusion of others.

First of all, lets look at the differences between the archery season that was, and the archery season that is. When the compound bow came on the scene, bows were drawn by hand. They were held by hand. The full draw weight of the bow was managed by the archer. A 60 pound bow required 60 pounds of pull. Enter the compound.

Today compound bows with 85% letoff will have the archer holding only 9 pounds of that 60. Today, the compound bow has peep sights, or optical sights that are available with optical enhancements to at least 6 power that I have personally seen. Compound bows today enjoy the opportunity to mount laser rangefinders along with all the other accoutraments that benefit the compound shooter. Oh.. lest I forget, now we also have two, that I have seen and maybe there are others, devices that hold the bow for the shooter. One is suspended on a movable arm above the shooter, the other is a telescopic bow arm holder that supports the bow arm indefinitely. The compound bow for many is pulled to full draw with the wrist, not the fingers, and is released via a trigger when the opportune moment arrives, and with all of these added advantages, the compound bow can be held at full draw for an inordinate amount of time compared to the longbow or recurve and in this sense is absolutely no different than a crossbow, something they seem to be striving for diligently.

These advantages of the compound bow are gargantuan compared to the longbow and recurve, and then to complaine about the crossbow, a bow of historical significance that has a rightful place in archery hunting, is not only insignificant, but makes those lodging complaint look hypocritical. They actually look worse to some.

Does that answer your question?

Aloha..  :beer:


----------



## rattus58

Bow_Rep said:


> These were the historic numbers that I was looking for. It covers license sales in WI from 1966-2003.
> 
> DNR RECORDS
> 
> What I found interesting is that you can see the interest in archery hunting that took off in '72-73 with the advent of reasonably priced compound bows (and the movie "Deliverance" didn't hurt either). Then you can kind of see the impact of the movie "Rambo" in 1982.
> 
> It wasn't until 1985 that archers in Wisconsin killed more deer with the bow than there were reported deer/car collisions! 40,000+!! Now, the archery hunters are killing over twice as many deer as they did in 1985 and the seasons have really not been cut back at all unless you count the T-Zone hunts.
> 
> WI is a state where hunters simply cannot kill as many deer as Ma Nature can produce each year. That is a darned big problem too.


Its interesting that archery hunters took 5% of the total take in 1966, and now have a total take of 20% and represent today, 39% of the total number of hunters in the field. Based upon licenses, archery hunters enjoyed a 39% success ratio... phenomenal when you look at it.

Crossbows might bring in a few more hunters, but probably not enough to be even statistically relevant for a number of years.

Aloha...  :beer:


----------



## BigBirdVA

rattus58 said:


> Elaborate on what? That I've spent three months looking into crossbow regulations for every state in the nation. That I've talked to many archers, crossbow shooters, and game departments?
> 
> Philosophically? Whats to elaborate on that? Crossbows have been around for hundreds if not close to a thousand years? That they were in use alongside longbows and recurves through the centuries? That a long bow and a cross bow share identical means of powering the arrow? That both longbow and crossbow depend upon the limbs of a bow for power, a string for propulsion, and an arrow for delivery? What's philosophical about that? The crossbow has been an archery implement for centuries and for it to be now "excluded" is preposterous and ludicrous.
> 
> As I've stated before, it seems that it is the compound shooter that is protesting the most, and you have to ask why? What are they so afraid of? There is absolutely no reason to exclude the crossbow from an archery only season... other than maybe some elitists attitudes of some that they "own" the archery season to the exclusion of others.
> 
> First of all, lets look at the differences between the archery season that was, and the archery season that is. When the compound bow came on the scene, bows were drawn by hand. They were held by hand. The full draw weight of the bow was managed by the archer. A 60 pound bow required 60 pounds of pull. Enter the compound.
> 
> Today compound bows with 85% letoff will have the archer holding only 9 pounds of that 60. Today, the compound bow has peep sights, or optical sights that are available with optical enhancements to at least 6 power that I have personally seen. Compound bows today enjoy the opportunity to mount laser rangefinders along with all the other accoutraments that benefit the compound shooter. Oh.. lest I forget, now we also have two, that I have seen and maybe there are others, devices that hold the bow for the shooter. One is suspended on a movable arm above the shooter, the other is a telescopic bow arm holder that supports the bow arm indefinitely. The compound bow for many is pulled to full draw with the wrist, not the fingers, and is released via a trigger when the opportune moment arrives, and with all of these added advantages, the compound bow can be held at full draw for an inordinate amount of time compared to the longbow or recurve and in this sense is absolutely no different than a crossbow, something they seem to be striving for diligently.
> 
> These advantages of the compound bow are gargantuan compared to the longbow and recurve, and then to complaine about the crossbow, a bow of historical significance that has a rightful place in archery hunting, is not only insignificant, but makes those lodging complaint look hypocritical. They actually look worse to some.
> 
> Does that answer your question?
> 
> Aloha..  :beer:


Nicely stated.


----------



## willie

Hanson71 said:


> Older than Dirt,
> 
> You ask what kind of hunting we do based on needs? Probably to eat.
> Yes need, want has already been established.
> 
> I agree with MAD ARCHERY.


You misinterpretted what I said.

We do not *NEED* to use a compund bow to bowhunt. Many a deer was killed with a stick a string.

Most (about 93% ) use a compound because they want to, not because they need to.

We do not *NEED* to hunt to eat either.

The local grocery store can fill that *NEED. *

Hunting is a recreational pastime. The meat obtained is a by product.


----------



## willie

Bow_Rep said:


> Deer license data for 2006 (includes historic figures also) CLICK HERE
> 
> Wish that I could have found older historical numbers. I could have sworn that WI had archery license sales in the 200K+ range from about 86-90.


Question -

In Indiana a bowhunter can buy more than one tag/license. Does Wisconsin do the same thing?

If so would that not skew the results because of your notorious Earn A Buck?


----------



## Bow_Rep

willie said:


> Question -
> 
> In Indiana a bowhunter can buy more than one tag/license. Does Wisconsin do the same thing?
> 
> If so would that not skew the results because of your notorious Earn A Buck?


They used to sell additional doe tags. Then, the DNR basically started giving them away. You get a doe tag with every buck tag and in many units you MUST harvest the doe first (that notorius EAB thing). When they started giving the tags away, folks started whacking hell out of the deer. With EAB, lots of does are being harvested because you are litterally forced to harvest one in many management units.

What is interesting is that WI does NOT have a group hunting law for archery and this was fought against by the state bowhunting organization ever since God made dirt. The fear was that if that can of worms was opened up, that bowhunters would start decimating the buck population or start harvesting far too many deer (period), the gun hunters would b*tch a fit and archery seasons would be shortened. With EAB, the bowhunters can now get as kill-happy as they care to be because they can get unlimited tags in effect. But, those tags can only be used for does. Even at that, the bowhunters aren't really making an impact against the herd. The gun hunters aren't whining with jealousy about bowhunters any more now than they ever have (or any less either).

EAB skews the harvest numbers, but it does not skew the license sales numbers (present number of archers in the woods).


----------



## willie

I asked the question as number of "Archery License Sales" does not always correlate to "number of archers".


Like I said, in Indiana an archer can buy two "archery licenses", thus the number reported could be doubled _IF_ every archer in the state bought their two archery licenses. 

Giving away licenses is a new one on me. 

The data that you referenced here says "Archery License Sales" and not number of archers. Are these free licenses counted too?


----------



## willie

Gritty,

It doesn't appear that this poll is going quite like you wanted it to is it?

*Question *- Will you still use it in your talks and data presented to the powers that be?


----------



## Bow_Rep

You cannot hunt deer without an archery license in WI. There is one license per archer, so the number of licenses sold is 100% indicative of the number of archers. There are far more tags available, but you must first have a license to get them.

They give away carcass tags, not licenses.


----------



## x-shocker

Gritty said:


> I am a Board of director for the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association. I wanted to get a better feel though I have my own oppinion on this but wanted to get some feedback and discussion on what the Wisconsin members here think about legalizing x-bos for the Turkey and Bear seasons...
> 
> The Groups pushing for the legalization are the Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association .. The WI chapter of the NWTF and the WI chapter of SCI..
> 
> It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters
> 
> We are meeting this weekend to discuss these proposals and I believe this is nothing more than a foot in the door to the rest of big game hunting in WI meaning the Bowseason at some point.. This would be devastating to the bowseason and the clubs that support Bowhunting organizations...
> 
> Please give me some feedback from real WI bowhunters ..and vote what you feel should happen
> 
> 
> a Yes vote will mean you support x-bows for bear and turkey
> 
> a No vote means you do not support x-bows for any season except for the elderly and the handicapped that we presently have



To be a Board Director of a Bowhunting organization, how can you be so narrow minded about "bow" hunting? (The word bow is in quotes because you are against one of the 4 types of bows.)


----------



## Bow_Rep

All that is required to be a director of the state association is for there to be an opening in your county. You apply for it and it's pretty much yours.

That said, I saw Gritty working at the state association archery tournament last month and he basically donated his time. So, I will cut him some slack because it is more than 99% of the archers in this state will ever do for their fellow archers.


----------



## rattus58

willie said:


> I asked the question as number of "Archery License Sales" does not always correlate to "number of archers".
> 
> 
> Like I said, in Indiana an archer can buy two "archery licenses", thus the number reported could be doubled _IF_ every archer in the state bought their two archery licenses.
> 
> Giving away licenses is a new one on me.
> 
> The data that you referenced here says "Archery License Sales" and not number of archers. Are these free licenses counted too?


I don't think ANY state gives away more than one license. In fact, unless you are a senior you PAY for a license in every state I'm aware. Archery TAGS on the other hand is something entirely different. This allows you to shoot a particular sex or number of animals. Giving these away would make sense if you wanted higher harvest, and you'd still know the EXACT number of Licensed hunters.

Aloha....  :beer:


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## aceoky

madarchery said:


> I do not think its the use of x-bows that reaqlly drives me nuts. Its the industry backdoor tactics that irritates me. If the hunters of WI want the x-bow and the public polls support it then fine.



"Industry back door tactics"???????



> The Groups pushing for the legalization* are the Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association .. The WI chapter of the NWTF and the WI chapter of SCI.*.


Seems it's not the "industry" but other hunter's and HUNTING groups wanting this, thus that has no real merit here?


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## madarchery

In the past year there was a guy in the idustry who lit the fire and contacted groups. Way its done sure. But with my posts about how the head of the dnr is set up its a political game and thats how its played. Decisions based upon gov. appointee with NO wildlife experience.


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## pl8ime

I am from Ohio and I don't mind crossbows being used in archery season. I believe it brings more people to the sport. I do think that maybe there should be some additional hunter education requirements for users however. Growing up a small game shotgun hunter as a kid I later converted to deer shotgun hunting and later to bowhunting primarily to get out in the woods and enjoy the longer season. With todays technologies even for in-line muzzleloaders versus traditional muzzleloaders there are a lot of gray areas for traditionalists to argue over. I will use whatever legal method I can to get out in the woods and enjoy the challenges and opportunities as long as it can provide a clean and ethical kill. Crossbows allowed my son to start hunting with me at an early age and allowed me to get out in the woods a month after quadruple bypass last year. Now that I can shoot a compound again I put the crossbow back in storage. By the way my son got his first deer with a compound last year and now we enjoy just target shooting. I feel it's much ado about nothing. Just purists not being open minded.


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## rattus58

pl8ime 

You want additional training for crossbows, and in fact, the national bowhunters education foundation does provide a new pamphlet regarding crossbows for use during the "archery" sections being conducted in their classes. Getting this pamphlet into regular hunter education classes is there for the asking.

Aloha... :beer: 

PS.... saw your son got his first deer.... congratulations to your son...


----------



## Tim4Trout

Gritty said:


> I am a Board of director for the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association. I wanted to get a better feel though I have my own oppinion on this but wanted to get some feedback and discussion on what the Wisconsin members here think about legalizing x-bos for the Turkey and Bear seasons...
> 
> The Groups pushing for the legalization are the Wisconsin Bear Hunters Association .. The WI chapter of the NWTF and the WI chapter of SCI..
> 
> It is my oppinion that any legalization or gain x-bows is a loss for bowhunters
> 
> We are meeting this weekend to discuss these proposals and I believe this is nothing more than a foot in the door to the rest of big game hunting in WI meaning the Bowseason at some point.. This would be devastating to the bowseason and the clubs that support Bowhunting organizations...
> 
> Please give me some feedback from real WI bowhunters ..and vote what you feel should happen
> 
> 
> a Yes vote will mean you support x-bows for bear and turkey
> 
> a No vote means you do not support x-bows for any season except for the elderly and the handicapped that we presently have



The issue I think needs to be brought up ( if it hasn't already ) is that unlike deer season where you have separate seasons for different weapons archery, firearms, primitive .... that when it comes to bear and turkey you basically have just one hunting season where all currently legally weapons are valid ( bear seasons may incur variances for using bait and dogs ).

Thus from what I can see as it stands right now someone hunting turkey or bear with a "vertical" bow already has firearms hunters in the same woods hunting these species, too , at the same time.

----

Unless they are planning of doing separate weapons specific seasons for these species as they have done with deer, you are not really dealing with any alleged invasion as one might perceive if say you had an issue of crossbows being allowed during archery season, which some archers take exception to.


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## rattus58

So Tim.... what you are saying is.... The hunters are already there, and the change in method is the same guy using a different means... a no net gain (loss) situation, if I read that right... am I right? Good point if I'm right... 

Aloha...  :beer:


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## Gritty

I just read a article the other day where a study showed that a pretty strong majority of the general population in the USA favor hunting... Not all hunting .. But hunting in general... I believe the numebrs were like 62% supported hunting... .. I was amazed to read this .. But if this is true.. we really do not need the x-bow to give us more votes... 

My theory is this.. 

For those that do not know what is going on in WI here is a crash coarse..

First... Like posted earlier.... Bow hunter numbers in the state near 290,000... I believe it to be 3rd in the country or close to it ... I think Penn,,, and MI are 1 and 2 with Ohio Next behind us.

Here in WI... the Buck herd is decimated yearly... The only place any type of consistant age structure exists is on large tracts or large leases where there is outfitters and paid hunting.. This is mostly in one County ,, Buffalo.. The rest of the state is pretty much slaughtered each year with very few areas that have any age structure what so ever. By age structure I mean that most areas should have at least 3 -3 1/2 year old bucks per square mile and 1 4 1/2 or older per spuare mile.. for a healthy age structure right now .. Not many areas have this... 

This being said.. 

I believe X-bows can do the job and would eventually participate with them... This is what it would take and this is my counter proposal

*First* WI would need to pass a one Buck Rule per year per hunter... Other states had to go to this after the woods was filling and the buck herd was being decimated... Kentucky being one I believe implemeneted this rule... I think it was Kentucky I read about and the Buck herd is finally starting to recover after a few years..You simply can not have 1.5 million hunters hunting 1/2 a million buck deer.... and this is a strong estimate... 

Passing the One Buck Rule would and should go hand in hand with any legislation to add a weapon that will add this kind of hunter numbers...

*Second..* It is My position as a Director that we must acknowledge the X-bow and its supporters.. If we are going to start legalizing it for Bear and Turkey.. Then with this same proposal I feel we should add a X-bow season for deer .. In my proposal it would run from Sept. 1st thru the 14th ... a 14 day season X-bow deer season.. Then the regular archery season would start every year on the 15th...where x-bows would still be legal for the elderly and the handicapped only , keeping them at a advantage and in the field with their present format. and will also give x-bow hunters a chance to extend their season,,doing so by picking up a Bow and Arrow adding a element they may enjoy if given a chance... 

By adding a extra season for X-bows for deer during the velvet stages.. we will add time in the field and a real opportunity to tag a velvet buck here in WI Like the have in Western states....I'd participate in this season myself...

*Third* in my proposal I include a 30% license fee increase bring the resident deer license fees to 31.50 and NR deer would go to 215.00 for example,,,,, still a bargain as compared to many states Then ,,,the fee increase will raise around 14 million dollars or so... In this same proposal.. 

This fee increase revenues will be ear marked for 7 million going directly to additional DNR Wardens adding nearly 100 new additional Wardens for enforcement and protection of our renewable resources,,,,

5 Million per season will go directly to Public land restoration and habitat improvements on public hunting property,, Seeding roads .. Planting meadows ,,,,, selective cutting and spraying of invasive non- habitiat forming browse .. This will in turn, improve our public lands emensly so these extra hunters have more opportunities on our public lands that virtually have nothing there left but Piles of Corn dumped ... But the days are numbered for that as well...

The Other 2 Million per year in fee revenue will go directly into Hunter Education... Including all X-bow hunters needing to take a x-bow safety coarse to become certified... and all hunters will need to retake Hunter Ed coarse every 10 years for all forms of hunting with any weapon...No card.. No hunting license... this in itself will improve our hunter base and eliminate some of the senseless shootings that have taken place in recent years..by putting better educated hunters in our woods.. 


But to O.K. the X-bows for just Bear and Turkey .. I think is the wrong approach and will hurt Bowhunting in WI at some point.. I think that a seperate season as I laid out will provide exciting new opportunites for bowhunters wanting to try to hunt a velvet deer and try a new weapon while retaining the present archery season and the present Handicapped and elderly advantages that the x-bow gives them in the bow season..

We need to Keep the Elderly having some sort of edge to keep them involved... and for the guy,, god forbid who lost a limb in the war .. his advantage and reason to keep involved with the bowhunting sport.. If we allow x-bows for everyone all the time.. we loose that edge for these groups of hunters they presently have.. I think that also would be a mistake..


So, you see , all you guys bashing me for my positition and useing your mouths before you really know me or what I'm Up too..should maybe keep your comments to yourselves like I asked......... This is no place for it.....


Thanx for for all the responses..... 

I have taken some respectful comments under advisement....

Gritty


----------



## doegirl

.

*Second..* It is My position as a Director that we must acknowledge the X-bow and its supporters.. If we are going to start legalizing it for Bear and Turkey.. Then with this same proposal I feel we should add a X-bow season for deer .. In my proposal it would run from Sept. 1st thru the 14th ... a 14 day season X-bow deer season.. Then the regular archery season would start every year on the 15th...where x-bows would still be legal for the elderly and the handicapped only , keeping them at a advantage and in the field with their present format. and will also give x-bow hunters a chance to extend their season,,doing so by picking up a Bow and Arrow adding a element they may enjoy if given a chance... 

Gritty[/QUOTE]

How about a Crossbow season running October 31st-November 13th? After that, no crossbows, fair enough?:darkbeer:


----------



## Gritty

Ever hear of "give a inch take a mile"... I think my proposal is more then fair for all involved... and opens up some doors that have been closed... The dates are not negotiable... But thanx


----------



## rattus58

I'm amazed that you would take such an elitist point of view Gritty that "we really don't need the crossbow votes". Yes the general public supports hunting and our right to hunt. If that number is 62%, like you said, then we are not in very good position. Its only 13% before we are outnumbered. There is no reason why crossbows shouldn't be allowed in the general archery season in my opinion and further... you say dates are NOT NEGOTIABLE... who puts you in that position? Do you own the season? Is this Archery season owned by your organization or by the hunters in Wisconsin? For a leadership position Gritty I have to say that I am somewhat surprised at your attitude. No wonder there is such divisiveness.

Well I'm for the crossbow to be allowed with archery, during the regular archery season. There is absolutely NO REASON not to include the crossbow.

Good luck. I would have certainly thought that hunters in wisconsin would be more inclined to support one another... REMEMBER we are only 13% from losing our hunting rights if your observations are correct.

Aloha...


----------



## JDMiller

Gritty said:


> *First* WI would need to pass a one Buck Rule per year per hunter... Other states had to go to this after the woods was filling and the buck herd was being decimated... Kentucky being one I believe implemeneted this rule... I think it was Kentucky I read about and the Buck herd is finally starting to recover after a few years..You simply can not have 1.5 million hunters hunting 1/2 a million buck deer.... and this is a strong estimate...
> 
> Passing the One Buck Rule would and should go hand in hand with any legislation to add a weapon that will add this kind of hunter numbers...



If your going to support or oppose someting you need to get your facts straight. Kentucky never had decimation of our bucks and our one buck limit went into effect in the early 90's. The one buck limit was a result of sportsman & KDF&WR to increase the trophy potential... never had anything to do with decimation. Fact being the limit was imposed as our heard was expanding leaps & bounds. We are & have been in the top 10 states of producing B&C bucks for several years now. Our heard is nearing a million deer with basically unlimited doe harvest in most of the state. 

Kentucky always had a limited crossbow season and alowances for their use during firearms season. In 2006 the expanded season was finally approved and we went from basically a week in December to a Oct 1-21 first segment and Nov. 10-Dec 31 for the second segment. Our general archery season runs concurrent from Sept 1 - January 15. Our firearm opportunities abound with youth firearm.. muzzleloader & modern gun. There is not a shortage of deer or bucks in Kentucky. 

Crossbows have had absolutely no effect on anything...resources or bowhunters. Its just provided another choice of archery equipment with many bowhunters. As the seasons click by there is a feeling of acceptance starting to form by those that opposed. Crossbow harvest have been less than 10% of the total archery harvest and pretty much on track with that for this season. Many bowhunters are opting to use both during the season ...including myself. 

Crossbows will not take anything away from bowhunters ... period. As far as Wi..imposing the rule.... if you want booners its a good choice... dont have a dang thing to do with crossbows. Your DNR can have a seperate tag system like Virginia or Tennessee.


----------



## Gritty

LOL... We are talking about promoting a x-bow season and I get bashed.. By this is just not enough!! Heck Why should I support a season at all then... We are talking about a compromise.. .... Something that will give folks a extended oppotunity... Not taking anything form any one... Adn yet.. To the X-bow people it still is not enough.. You see this is exactly why we will have a very tough time getting it passed here in WI ... just becasue of the taking everything you can get attitude.. 

The dates In My Proposal are My proposal... That is not negotiatable.. You are correct.. They are these days or the proposal will not be used... and we may not support any x-bows period... That is the alternative.. Foks just are never happy with what they get offered to them... LOL

You can call me a Elitist biggot or what ever you want.. But the fact Is with out our support and proposals..the x-bow will probably never get in in WI ... So the fact that I have given more then fair time for all hunters and all choices of weapons in their own seasons is fair to all with this proposal.. 

Keep in Mind there is a strong majority of Bowhunters here In WI that think X-bows are nothing more then a gun that shoots a bolt and have nothing in common with bow that needs to be drawn on game.....but has nearly everything in common with a singleshot slug gun.

At least I am willing to compromise and try to please most.. But It is clear you can not please everyone.... That is too bad..


----------



## aceoky

Gritty said:


> Ever hear of "give a inch take a mile"... I think my proposal is more then fair for all involved... and opens up some doors that have been closed... _The dates are not negotiable_... But thanx


*First*

EVERYTHING having to do with a Privilege IS negotiable, you saying it isn't doesn't mean anything at all.....
*
Secondly* 

JD Miller already saved me the time on setting you straight on Ky and the one buck rule here (thanks JD):cocktail:
*
Thirdly* YOU come on here "asking" for opinions then when they are not what you expected (nor the poll results) (which "should" tell you something) .....instead you basically say "mind your own business" but thanks for the input"??????
You have had some GREAT folks take the time out of their day to provide you with real and relevant data much of which shows that crossbows have as much right in the woods as compounds do! Yet you have chosen to ignore facts and continue with "myths" instead! 

IS that what the folks that you are supposed to represent expect from you?


----------



## JDMiller

Gritty said:


> Keep in Mind there is a strong majority of Bowhunters here In WI that think X-bows are nothing more then a gun that shoots a bolt and have nothing in common with bow that needs to be drawn on game.....but has nearly everything in common with a singleshot slug gun.



The bowhunting organizations here are strong as well... maybe even more so than Wi. They stood their ground... most were pretty set against any expanded crossbow season. It was a heck of a mess... they even had legislature setting the season as is. Finnaly settled with a compromise. Crossbow users went from a week to a 2 1/2 month season just for deer & turkey. Yep... the bowhunting group won out...:wink:


----------



## gpalma

Gritty said:


> First... Like posted earlier.... Bow hunter numbers in the state near 290,000... I believe it to be 3rd in the country or close to it ... I think Penn,,, and MI are 1 and 2 with Ohio Next behind us.
> 
> *old news*
> 
> Here in WI... the Buck herd is decimated yearly... The only place any type of consistant age structure exists is on large tracts or large leases where there is outfitters and paid hunting.. This is mostly in one County ,, Buffalo.. The rest of the state is pretty much slaughtered each year with very few areas that have any age structure what so ever. By age structure I mean that most areas should have at least 3 -3 1/2 year old bucks per square mile and 1 4 1/2 or older per spuare mile.. for a healthy age structure right now .. Not many areas have this...
> 
> *Ok, so you are all about trophy hunting. Now we see excatly where you are coming from.*
> 
> This being said..
> 
> I believe X-bows can do the job and would eventually participate with them... This is what it would take and this is my counter proposal
> 
> *Easy for you to say. What does it translate to in English??*
> 
> *First* WI would need to pass a one Buck Rule per year per hunter... Other states had to go to this after the woods was filling and the buck herd was being decimated... Kentucky being one I believe implemeneted this rule... I think it was Kentucky I read about and the Buck herd is finally starting to recover after a few years..You simply can not have 1.5 million hunters hunting 1/2 a million buck deer.... and this is a strong estimate...
> 
> *Ah, more trophy hunting concerns I see.*
> 
> Passing the One Buck Rule would and should go hand in hand with any legislation to add a weapon that will add this kind of hunter numbers...
> 
> *What kind of hunter numbers? Are you concerned that they will kill your grossly excess deer/buck population that now cannot be kept in check with even rifles?*
> 
> *Second..* It is My position as a Director that we must acknowledge the X-bow and its supporters.. If we are going to start legalizing it for Bear and Turkey.. Then with this same proposal I feel we should add a X-bow season for deer .. In my proposal it would run from Sept. 1st thru the 14th ... a 14 day season X-bow deer season.. Then the regular archery season would start every year on the 15th...where x-bows would still be legal for the elderly and the handicapped only , keeping them at a advantage and in the field with their present format. and will also give x-bow hunters a chance to extend their season,,doing so by picking up a Bow and Arrow adding a element they may enjoy if given a chance...
> 
> *So, you are saying that you want to make the X-bow hunters be redheaded step children and hunt in a totally separate season, as far away from the rut as possible? You are saying that you want the X-bow hunters to hunt in 80 degree weather? You are saying that you want to make the X-bow hunters hunt only when every leaf is still on every bush and tree?
> 
> Seems a tad selfish and elitist.*
> 
> *Bears can already be harvested in Wisconsin with a rifle and a shotgun or pistol or a bow ALL IN THE SAME SHORT SEASON. Why not a X-bow too Gritty? Hmmm??? *
> 
> *Turkeys can already be harvested with a shotgun or a bow in Wisconsin, all during the same short season. Why not a X-bow too Gritty?:?*
> 
> By adding a extra season for X-bows for deer during the velvet stages.. we will add time in the field and a real opportunity to tag a velvet buck here in WI Like the have in Western states....I'd participate in this season myself...
> 
> *Nobody cares about this at all. Who are you kidding?? LOL*
> 
> *Third* in my proposal I include a 30% license fee increase bring the resident deer license fees to 31.50 and NR deer would go to 215.00 for example,,,,, still a bargain as compared to many states Then ,,,the fee increase will raise around 14 million dollars or so... In this same proposal..
> 
> *Sounds like you want to keep more hunters out of the deer woods. Do you feel that your hunting is being encroached upon to request a price increase when 99% of the other hunters are fed up with the rising costs of licenses?*
> 
> This fee increase revenues will be ear marked for 7 million going directly to additional DNR Wardens adding nearly 100 new additional Wardens for enforcement and protection of our renewable resources,,,,
> 
> *Never happen except in your wildest hallucinations. You just want more enforcement against baiting. Don't kid us.*
> 
> 5 Million per season will go directly to Public land restoration and habitat improvements on public hunting property,, Seeding roads .. Planting meadows ,,,,, selective cutting and spraying of invasive non- habitiat forming browse .. This will in turn, improve our public lands emensly so these extra hunters have more opportunities on our public lands that virtually have nothing there left but Piles of Corn dumped ... But the days are numbered for that as well...
> 
> *Yep, I was wondering when you would start blathering the "B" word. *
> 
> The Other 2 Million per year in fee revenue will go directly into Hunter Education... Including all X-bow hunters needing to take a x-bow safety coarse to become certified... and all hunters will need to retake Hunter Ed coarse every 10 years for all forms of hunting with any weapon...No card.. No hunting license... this in itself will improve our hunter base and eliminate some of the senseless shootings that have taken place in recent years..by putting better educated hunters in our woods..
> 
> *They already need to have graduated hunter safety to hunt anything. Are you saying that they need a special course just for X-bows? Why not archery too? Sounds like you just want to make X-bow hunters jump through extra hoops.*
> 
> 
> But to O.K. the X-bows for just Bear and Turkey .. I think is the wrong approach and will hurt Bowhunting in WI at some point..
> 
> *Tell us all exactly how when it is 110% illogical in the extreme??*
> 
> I think that a seperate season as I laid out will provide exciting new opportunites for bowhunters wanting to try to hunt a velvet deer and try a new weapon while retaining the present archery season and the present Handicapped and elderly advantages that the x-bow gives them in the bow season..
> 
> *You are dead wrong of course.*
> 
> We need to Keep the Elderly having some sort of edge to keep them involved... and for the guy,, god forbid who lost a limb in the war .. his advantage and reason to keep involved with the bowhunting sport.. If we allow x-bows for everyone all the time.. we loose that edge for these groups of hunters they presently have.. I think that also would be a mistake..
> 
> *A poorly misguided opinion and it is insulting to use the "war veteran" card so cheaply.* Any shame in you at all?
> 
> 
> So, you see , all you guys bashing me for my positition and useing your mouths before you really know me or what I'm Up too..should maybe keep your comments to yourselves like I asked......... This is no place for it.....
> 
> *We pretty much know what you are up to and what you are about. *
> 
> 
> Thanx for for all the responses.....
> 
> I have taken some respectful comments under advisement....
> 
> Gritty


*Who really cares if you took it under advisement? You are a self-appointed state assn rep and just one of dozens. The other long-time directors know the score and will shoot down any whacky proposal put before them. Thank God that WBH directors aren't all gullible to swallow bovine excrement.*


----------



## BigBirdVA

The one thing that gets me is they always want to compromise something for xbows. They never want to just open it up even though there are tons of data that it doesn't affect the numbers. Now what if the stick bow guys had given the compound guys a compromise?


And how many states have to open it up and come back and say nothing bad happened before the rest figure it out? :confused3:


----------



## aceoky

> Originally Posted by Gritty View Post
> Keep in Mind there is a strong majority of Bowhunters here In WI that think X-bows are nothing more then a gun that shoots a bolt and have nothing in common with bow that needs to be drawn on game.....but has nearly everything in common with a singleshot slug gun.


SO WHAT??

There are people who "think" that their dogs speak to them, UFO have "abducted them", that Hitler was right, and on and on and on!
"Thinking" something without evidence and facts means less than nothing......

Crossbows are NOT "guns" and are not even close. Where is the firing pin? Where does the propellant go (gunpowder)???

They ARE a much older and respected form of ARCHERY that is much more traditional than ANY compound bow ever was or will be!

Modern hunting crossbows shoot arrows NOT "bolts" and have the same effective range as a modern compound which by the way does NOT resemble traditional bows, and the archery hunter does NOT draw and hold the weight of the bow .........period!

A compound uses mechanical advantage to aid the shooter/hunter to hold the bow's weight, so does a crossbow, and the difference in "how much" is trivial, and counter productive to OUR sport....period!

As for "drawing in the presence of game" when MOST are 20 feet (or more) up a tree or in a scent controlling ground blind that point is moot at best! 

WHY are they so high or in a blind? To make drawing undetected EASIER .....so trying to do that , and then claim, " but we have to draw" is a foolish stance at best!

NO one is being fooled by "flimsy excuses" any longer! They are but a feeble attempt to try to keep other fellow archery hunters out of the season for no good reason. That helps no one, harms archery hunter's images and thus harms the image of our sport, and for what?

It's past time we as a group, accept other's choices and not try to put other fellow hunters in "groups", and unite as one strong voice. It's what's best for hunting and it's future IMO


----------



## x-shocker

Gritty said:


> For those that do not know what is going on in WI here is a crash coarse..
> 
> First... Like posted earlier.... Bow hunter numbers in the state near 290,000... I believe it to be 3rd in the country or close to it ... I think Penn,,, and MI are 1 and 2 with Ohio Next behind us.
> 
> Here in WI... the Buck herd is decimated yearly... The only place any type of consistant age structure exists is on large tracts or large leases where there is outfitters and paid hunting.. This is mostly in one County ,, Buffalo.. The rest of the state is pretty much slaughtered each year with very few areas that have any age structure what so ever. By age structure I mean that most areas should have at least 3 -3 1/2 year old bucks per square mile and 1 4 1/2 or older per spuare mile.. for a healthy age structure right now .. Not many areas have this...
> 
> This being said..
> 
> I believe X-bows can do the job and would eventually participate with them... This is what it would take and this is my counter proposal
> 
> *First* WI would need to pass a one Buck Rule per year per hunter... Other states had to go to this after the woods was filling and the buck herd was being decimated... Kentucky being one I believe implemeneted this rule... I think it was Kentucky I read about and the Buck herd is finally starting to recover after a few years..You simply can not have 1.5 million hunters hunting 1/2 a million buck deer.... and this is a strong estimate...
> 
> Passing the One Buck Rule would and should go hand in hand with any legislation to add a weapon that will add this kind of hunter numbers...


How many bucks can a hunter legally tag in WI? Isn't it just one like MN?



> *Second..* It is My position as a Director that we must acknowledge the X-bow and its supporters.. If we are going to start legalizing it for Bear and Turkey.. Then with this same proposal I feel we should add a X-bow season for deer .. In my proposal it would run from Sept. 1st thru the 14th ... a 14 day season X-bow deer season.. Then the regular archery season would start every year on the 15th...where x-bows would still be legal for the elderly and the handicapped only , keeping them at a advantage and in the field with their present format. and will also give x-bow hunters a chance to extend their season,,doing so by picking up a Bow and Arrow adding a element they may enjoy if given a chance...
> 
> By adding a extra season for X-bows for deer during the velvet stages.. we will add time in the field and a real opportunity to tag a velvet buck here in WI Like the have in Western states....I'd participate in this season myself...


Two problems here: 1) The compound bow hunters will b!tch and moan about how privileged X-bow hunters are to be the first hunters in the woods and picking up all the monster bucks; 2) Your failure to see X-bows as bows.



> *Third* in my proposal I include a 30% license fee increase bring the resident deer license fees to 31.50 and NR deer would go to 215.00 for example,,,,, still a bargain as compared to many states Then ,,,the fee increase will raise around 14 million dollars or so... In this same proposal..
> 
> This fee increase revenues will be ear marked for 7 million going directly to additional DNR Wardens adding nearly 100 new additional Wardens for enforcement and protection of our renewable resources,,,,
> 
> 5 Million per season will go directly to Public land restoration and habitat improvements on public hunting property,, Seeding roads .. Planting meadows ,,,,, selective cutting and spraying of invasive non- habitiat forming browse .. This will in turn, improve our public lands emensly so these extra hunters have more opportunities on our public lands that virtually have nothing there left but Piles of Corn dumped ... But the days are numbered for that as well...
> 
> The Other 2 Million per year in fee revenue will go directly into Hunter Education... Including all X-bow hunters needing to take a x-bow safety coarse to become certified... and all hunters will need to retake Hunter Ed coarse every 10 years for all forms of hunting with any weapon...No card.. No hunting license... this in itself will improve our hunter base and eliminate some of the senseless shootings that have taken place in recent years..by putting better educated hunters in our woods..
> 
> 
> But to O.K. the X-bows for just Bear and Turkey .. I think is the wrong approach and will hurt Bowhunting in WI at some point.. I think that a seperate season as I laid out will provide exciting new opportunites for bowhunters wanting to try to hunt a velvet deer and try a new weapon while retaining the present archery season and the present Handicapped and elderly advantages that the x-bow gives them in the bow season..
> 
> We need to Keep the Elderly having some sort of edge to keep them involved... and for the guy,, god forbid who lost a limb in the war .. his advantage and reason to keep involved with the bowhunting sport.. If we allow x-bows for everyone all the time.. we loose that edge for these groups of hunters they presently have.. I think that also would be a mistake..
> 
> 
> So, you see , all you guys bashing me for my positition and useing your mouths before you really know me or what I'm Up too..should maybe keep your comments to yourselves like I asked......... This is no place for it.....
> 
> 
> Thanx for for all the responses.....
> 
> I have taken some respectful comments under advisement....
> 
> Gritty


Times change and money runs into inflations.

I'm seeing that Bowhunters' Association is wrongly named. It should be Compound-bowhunters' Association. (I left out Traditionalists because they are the coolest bunch of bowhunters.)


----------



## Dthbyhoyt

I am all for doing what ever it takes to get as many hunters as we can get into the woods , but I don't like the idea of x-guns being used during the regular archery season , if they want to use them during firearm season then that is ok ...Lets keep archery season just that .


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## aceoky

Dthbyhoyt said:


> I am all for doing what ever it takes to get as many hunters as we can get into the woods , but I don't like the idea of x-guns being used during the regular archery season , if they want to use them during firearm season then that is ok ...Lets keep archery season just that .


Why?

CrossBOWS are "more archery" than ANY modern compound bow is or ever will be WHY would "anyone" want to put a short range archery weapon with firearms??

How about WE all agree to do that.......... IF compounds can ONLY be used during gun seasons as well? It's total hypocrisy to allow compounds and even try to keep crossbows out of an archery only season.

Yes, let's "keep archery season just that" and allow a centuries old archery weapon as another archery choice along with all of the others!:cocktail:

BTW, what exactly is a "x-gun", I can't seem to find anything that fits that category.....


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## goldtip45

*x-guns*

look i can understand a truely handicap person being allowed to use one. i think if you use a x-gun you should have to apply for a handicap licence. if you are phyically unable to shoot a compound due to a proven disability then thats is ok. 
other wise i feel you should of invested your money in a compound,recure or longbow and learn how to use it . lazy people use this method in my opinion. i dont think a cross bow should be allowed for a record of any kind period unless you are legally given a handicap or disabled license.
if you dont draw it back at the moment for a kill shot then use it during gun season only. if you want to point and aim use it during gun season only!
there is alot less movement involved than a compound--and we all know movement can get you busted. cold weather can even be a bigger issue when your muscles are cold and you have to draw.
so lets keep it as it is! for those who are not handicaped or disabled get a bow:wink: and pratice with it and spend the many hours learning to shot one and try to master it. form,practice and dedication to mastering form makes bowhunting--not just aiming like a gun. im allowed a opinion so dont get red faced on me cheers:darkbeer:


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## aceoky

goldtip45 said:


> look i can understand a truely handicap person being allowed to use one. i think if you use a x-gun you should have to apply for a handicap licence. if you are phyically unable to shoot a compound due to a proven disability then thats is ok.
> other wise i feel you should of invested your money in a compound,recure or longbow and learn how to use it . lazy people use this method in my opinion. i dont think a cross bow should be allowed for a record of any kind period unless you are legally given a handicap or disabled license.
> if you dont draw it back at the moment for a kill shot then use it during gun season only. if you want to point and aim use it during gun season only!
> there is alot less movement involved than a compound--and we all know movement can get you busted. cold weather can even be a bigger issue when your muscles are cold and you have to draw.
> so lets keep it as it is! for those who are not handicaped or disabled get a bow:wink: and pratice with it and spend the many hours learning to shot one and try to master it. form,practice and dedication to mastering form makes bowhunting--not just aiming like a gun. im allowed a opinion so dont get red faced on me cheers:darkbeer:


That is some FUNNY STUFF right there........another "X-gun" post.....what exactly are xguns??? (something used in the x games?) 

Too bad ALL those things have been more than answered.....and then some.

You guys forget hunting is NOT a competition between other hunters so none of that matters in the least!

*Question*: what someone else is using on their archery hunt "over there" effects YOU exactly how in some negative way???? Oh I see it doesn't but somehow you feel "special and elite" because you use a mechanically advantaged compound to help you draw and hold that weight? 

Also most use tree stands to help them draw undetected, or a ground blind which covers movement AND scent......are you guilty of any of that?
How about scent lock suits, wrist type release aids, fiber optic sight pins, (the list goes on and on)......many people "think" that's the "lazy way out "also, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks around ya know! :cocktail:

See how foolish this really is?

Again WE as hunters and archery hunters in particular (there are less archery hunters than gun hunters by far btw) NEED to unite and stop this petty "division"........there is no point to it, no good can or will ever come of it ......period.

Why is it you NEVER hear a rifle hunter crying that "I use a 30/30 so I deserve more time, using a harder shorter range weapon"??? This whole issue is foolish IF you  don't want to use a crossbow DON"T! Just don't knock others who do OR try to keep them from the hunting enjoyment......


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## rattus58

goldtip45 said:


> if you dont draw it back at the moment for a kill shot then use it during gun season only. if you want to point and aim use it during gun season only!
> :darkbeer:


http://peepeliminator.com/ Oh Oh.... What's this? :grin: :grin:

A compound bow with only 6-9 pounds of draw weight can be held a full draw for a long time... and when related to the longbow or recurve... is so obscene by comparison that to try and wish this away with such characterizations of x-bow etc... is laughable. Compound bows today are no different than a x-crossBOW and as the peep eliminator proves... aren't compounds today just becoming closet crossbows? :grin:

Aloha...  :beer:


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## aceoky

madarchery said:


> In the past year there was a guy in the idustry who lit the fire and contacted groups. .


Can you prove this? I'd be interested if so, who exactly did this?

Still IF it was in fact done, NO "fire can be lit" unless some tried them and found out the truth of what crossbows are and are not???? 
Seems there have been many "claims" of manufacturers "pushing" but no proof of it actually being true?
Not that anyone should blame them, who wouldn't want to make more $$ in the USA?? :darkbeer: 
It's claimed to take place in every state it seems, but no one ever seems to prove that it really did, and that is how "rumors" get started. :wink:

BTW good posts rattus58! 

Speaking of devices for compound bows, check out the "Steady Ready" marketed by Knight and Hale! It not only makes it even easier to hold a compound at full draw for very extended periods it also serves as a "rest" as well!


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## rattus58

Hi Ace... thats an interesting device, a little different than the one I've seen like this, but very similar. There is another one that has an overhanging swing arm with adjustable straps to suspend the bow and give you a wide arc around your stand.

It is very difficult to understand the compound bow shooters reluctance to allow crossbows into their seasons when if they'd just look back a little and compare their overwhelming advantage over the longbow and recurve, the original architects of the archery seasons... do you actually think that they saw the virtually zero hold weight of compounds as being "equal"? Holding a draw with arm, wrist and shoulder rather than fingers? Personally I think that anyone who objectively looks at this question has a clear answer to it as well, a bow no matter how drawn or held is archery equipment.

Aloha....


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## aceoky

Gritty said:


> LOL... We are talking about promoting a x-bow season and I get bashed..
> 
> NO you are NOT.......You are TRYING to offer some "Crumbs" and call it a "promotion" or compromise, hoping to keep the BEST times for your own benefit.....you are NOT "fooling" anyone btw
> 
> 
> 
> By this is just not enough!! Heck Why should I support a season at all then...
> 
> Doesn't matter I seriously doubt that YOU can make it happen alone either way....
> 
> 
> We are talking about a compromise.. ....
> 
> Nice try see above!
> 
> 
> 
> Something that will give folks a extended oppotunity... Not taking anything form any one.
> 
> Problem for YOU is, that crossbows for every big game animal whenever any other archery weapon is allowed doesn't take ANYTHING from anyone either, even though you tried to claim that it does.....
> 
> 
> .. Adn yet.. To the X-bow people it still is not enough.. You see this is exactly why we will have a very tough time getting it passed here in WI ... just becasue of the taking everything you can get attitude..
> 
> Not true, we maintain (and offer real proof and relevant DATA to support it) that since newer high tech compounds are allowed there is NO good reason to exclude crossbows, and we are correct!
> 
> The dates In My Proposal are My proposal... That is not negotiatable.. You are correct.. They are these days or the proposal will not be used... and we may not support any x-bows period... That is the alternative.. Foks just are never happy with what they get offered to them... LOL
> 
> Be honest IF 'your proposal" were for crossbows AND compounds, would things be ANY different??? LOL
> 
> You can call me a Elitist biggot or what ever you want.. But the fact Is with out our support and proposals..the x-bow will probably never get in in WI ...
> 
> A foolish notion, how many other bow orgs made that claim in Tenn, Ky, Va (should I keep going ???) LOL IF you "think" take the crumbs or you'll get nothing you need to do MUCH more research on how that"worked out" in other states.......(hint not like you think) :wink:
> 
> 
> So the fact that I have given more then fair time for all hunters and all choices of weapons in their own seasons is fair to all with this proposal..
> 
> Funny stuff right there, YOU want to put ONE archery weapon in "it's own season" when ALL the others share the same season, but have NO data to support that stance.......ZERO.....IF compounds "belong" then there can be NO doubt that crossbows do as well....
> 
> Keep in Mind there is a strong majority of Bowhunters here In WI that think X-bows are nothing more then a gun that shoots a bolt and have nothing in common with bow that needs to be drawn on game.....but has nearly everything in common with a singleshot slug gun.
> 
> At least I am willing to compromise and try to please most.. But It is clear you can not please everyone.... That is too bad..


Again, "your compromise" is a joke to archery hunters, to hunter unity , YOU wish to "divide into groups" based on one archery weapon of many??? WHY? What good could come from that? Wouldn't you agree it makes more sense to accept crossbow hunters as fellow archery hunters?

IF not, and you choose to continue to divide, then at least don't be so hypocritical, and move compounds with crossbows, showing YOU are "really about" keeping it "fair" for all........

AT this time, hunter unity is MORE important than a FEW bow hunters (btw most of US don't have ANY problem with what another archery hunter CHOOSES to us on their hunts.....contrary to what "our supposed leaders" claim or try to claim!!! A FEW bow hunters wanting to "pretend" that they are somehow "special or elite" does nothing positive for our image or our sport......

ONLY the bare bow traditional bow hunters have ANY right to "gripe, cry, whine or complain", odd thing is, THEY DO NOT.......!!! 
About 93% of archery hunters choose to use compounds; which IS fine......however to "pretend" they are "real bow hunters" and crossbow hunters are not is absurd and reeks of hypocrisy!! These same compound hunters ARE the ones making all of the noise! It's foolish, absurd, short-sighted and casts a very negative image on an awesome sport! And for what??? Because some will CHOOSE to use a crossbow to archery hunt with? We NEED more archery hunters, what THEY use on THEIR hunts is FAR less important than the fact they ARE archery hunting, compounds have proven this, by increasing OUR numbers and NOT having any negative effects at all. Some learn from history , a FEW "think" they know more than everyone else does, (including G&F Departments ) 

NO one has been able to show ONE good and valid reason why compounds should share the entire season and crossbows and crossbow HUNTERS should be EXCLUDED, from an open to the PUBLIC archery season, THAT is why they'll be allowed.....because a FEW "don't want them" isn't going to matter in the least!

You really should go back and read the guy from Ohio's post who was SO against them..........that story is what this is REALLY all about.......MUCH ado about Nothing!! Don't use your leadership position to divide, instead use it to work on hunter unity......

I sincerely hope you have an awesome and SAFE hunting season!


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## rattus58

Hi ACE.... 

Pretty cogent argument I'd say... :grin:

What I'm amazed at, is here we have the President of the Wisconsin Bowhunters protesting crossbows and further goes on to say that some archers still consider the crossbow a gun with a bolt. What's interesting is that a President should be knowledgeable, progressive, and informed. He should be educating those archers that can't tell the difference between rifle and a bow. He should be pointing out that a gun uses bullets that exit a barrel. He should be pointing out that a crossbow has limbs... like a longbow or compound, that most of them use. He should be pointing out that a gun uses powder for the energy of the bullet and that like the bow, the energy for the arrow of a crossbow is provided by those limbs and the launching of that energy is provided by the string, exactly like the bows they all use. He should be pointing out, to those archers who still haven't taken the time to learn about crossbows, or who haven't been educated by their BOWHUNTING organizations, both compounds and crossbows use triggers.

The National Bowhunters Education Foundation no longer relies on the archaic Bill Wadsworth pronouncements of what a bow is for hunting. The drawlock might be an argument for archery competition, but it certainly has no bearing on hunting, and the NBEF now includes crossbow into their program. The President of a Bowhunters Group should know this.

You also point out something that amazes me to no end. The compound shooter has such enormous advantage over the longbow (of whose season they took over) and gives absolutely no quarter to the crossbow, that you'd think that they'd be ashamed to even enter into the argument to keep crossbows out of the archery seasons, but apparently those compound shooters that still lobby to keep the crossbow out are ignorant of the facts (leadership and education), so completely selfish that they are blinded to the facts, or are just elitist and maybe deliberately hypocritical. Remember, we are discussing HUNTING here, not competition.

Now interestingly, I have yet to find data, and this does not mean its not there, but I have yet to find data that shows any significant increase in hunter numbers in the field when crossbows were allowed into archery seasons.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## archery ham

*What happenned...*



Bobmuley said:


> Yep, bowhunting is pretty much dead in Ohio...:wink:



What happenned in Ohio??


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## aceoky

Thanks rattus58; it is absurd for anyone to try to exclude rather than include centuries old archery equipment ,AND the hunters who choose to use it; it's sad to me to see this happening again and again to OUR sport.


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## x-shocker

I want one of these "x-guns". I will drive to the woods, get out of the car, hold the "x-gun" into the air, squeeze the trigger, and the bolt will fly into the woods and pick up a deer and dump it into my truck bed. Yes, count me in on the purchase of one of these "x-guns".


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## camotoe

Joe is a guy who enjoys hunting. For him it's about being in nature, putting skills to the test, having reverence for the animals he takes, appreciation for the animals that elude being taken, having an opportunity to share great moments with his son, paying license fees that go toward improvement of habitat, keeping the herd in manageable numbers while improving stock and keeping disease and starvation down, putting meat on the table, connecting with people from earlier times who hunted for their survival, etc. Does he use a traditional long bow? A compound? A crossbow? A rifle? Slugged shotgun? Traditional muzzle loader? Inline muzzle loader? It could be any of the above, couldn't it? As hunters, it shouldn't matter. Use what you feel comfortable with. We do ourselves a disservice when we become divisive. We will serve the hunting tradition IMO a whole lot better if we quit bickering among ourselves about methods and celebrate when new people come into the sport. Strength in numbers, friends.


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## Gritty

I am a Director .. Not the President.. The Wisconsin Bowhunters is a Membership run organization.. not a board run.. Meaning the Membership creates policy and not the board.. we merely defend what our membership grants us too... That being said .. The Membership Of the WBH has a floor membership voted binding position that absolutely no crossbow prolifiration will be endorsed in the State of WI .,,,, Period.. and it continues to be that exact position... 

That is why I asked for the poll... Not to hear every Tom Dick and Harry who spent their wad lobbying for X-bows in all the states that fell to the invasion.. But to get feedback from hunters who are willing to give up their club they shoot at here in WI... for hunters that are willing to give up their Proshop ..... Because like posted here by some of the Promoters.. Both are going to go when the x-bow invasion comes... but it is merely at the door and WI Bowhunters are willing to defend the bow season from shoulder fired weapons... If at some point they are allowed.. It will not be becasue the WBH did not do their job... we defend as directed by our membership... and our membership says ... No X-bows.....

If anyone here is ready to put the X-bow in the same group as a Compound... I'd like to see anyone shoot 4 inch groups for the first time with my compound bow at 100 yrds.... in near dark conditions..I'll shoot your X-bow... lets say a C-note a shot.... sounds fair????. 

Just because we shoot Compounds... doesn't mean I have not played with a x-bow for a afternoon to see what it could do with little or no practice to build form what so ever... Now ,, I am sure that the x-bow folks can shoot better then me with their shoulder fired weapon of choice... so don't waste time telling me they are the same as a Bow... they are a shoulder fired weapon capable of groups rivaling a rifled slug gun at 100 yrds... with little or no regular practice required... 

If they are the same as a Hand drawn compound bow they would require hours of practice and set up.. Paper tuning,,, Cam tuning... arrow tuning,,, and a signifia=cant effort to instill mucsle memory for proper form time in and time out.. One can not take any bow out of any shop and head for the woods and kill with it with no practice of form at all.. 

This is the Position of The WBH.... and I will support and defend that position.. it is my job...



I asked the Leader of the WI X-bow Push one question and it was enough for me to decide that we are defending the right position... I asked him .. Why had they not included the general archery season in their proposal and only attempted to slip in a reduced age limit instead.... ??? He had no answer... so I helped him.... He knew it would never fly... But by trying to weasel in to all the other seasons they eventually gain support... and eventually reach the goal of taking over the bow season... forcing clubs state wide out of business and shops as well... Then what??? Our Club does way more then just archery.. If it were to go under from the lack of shooters x-bows will bring a archery club.. then our community will loose their Hunters safety head quarters.. they will loose their youth Turkey program... they will loose their Bowhunter Safety program... they will loose the Pheasants forever youth trap league... they will loose the H.S. Scholarship we give for conservation... and not to mention the comaradre and fellowship that hunters share at the club...

Now.... we are just one of hundreds of clubs that will loose members to the x-bow invasion and will wither away...I do not believe in adding any opportunity when another opportunity suffers ... To promote this is not only selfish but pretty darn lame and childish Besides.. 

and One more point... If X-bows are the same as Compounds... then pick up a compound and come to WI and hunt.. I'm sure that even a x-bow shooter can learn to shoot a Mathews in a Month or 2.... 



Mods,, Please close this thread... I have gathered more then enough info to defend the charge... Thanx guys

Gritty


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## rattus58

Boy what a load of drivel that turned out to be

_If anyone here is ready to put the X-bow in the same group as a Compound... I'd like to see anyone shoot 4 inch groups for the first time with my compound bow at 100 yrds.... in near dark conditions..I'll shoot your X-bow... lets say a C-note a shot.... sounds fair????._

Where do you get this 100 yards 4" group stuff from Gritty? You've done this right... during that afternoon you were learning about crossbows? My but you are exceptional.

_Just because we shoot Compounds... doesn't mean I have not played with a x-bow for a afternoon to see what it could do with little or no practice to build form what so ever... Now ,, I am sure that the x-bow folks can shoot better then me with their shoulder fired weapon of choice... so don't waste time telling me they are the same as a Bow... they are a shoulder fired weapon capable of groups rivaling a rifled slug gun at 100 yrds... with little or no regular practice required..._

This is now getting laughable... you should quit Gritty before you start looking like you believe everything anyone tells you as a 5 year old might.

_That is why I asked for the poll... Not to hear every Tom Dick and Harry who spent their wad lobbying for X-bows in all the states that fell to the invasion.. But to get feedback from hunters who are willing to give up their club they shoot at here in WI... for hunters that are willing to give up their Proshop ..... Because like posted here by some of the Promoters.. Both are going to go when the x-bow invasion comes..._

How about backing up these assertions that proshops and clubs all closed because of crossbows. Can you name even one club that folded? One Proshop? Let me tell you something Gritty, if that were true, then everyone in your club is ready for crossbows and what could you possibly be waiting for?

If that were even remotely true Gritty, your proshops would be stocking their shelves with crossbows and pushing for seasons themselves... and you know what, even if that did happen, what would possibly keep you from hunting with your compound? I still only hunt with my recurves and longbows... how does your hunting with a compound affect me? It doesn't and a crossbow won't affect you either.


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## cynic

Why do so many seek a separate season for xbows, there isn't one for compounds.. Some people are in such denial as to what they actually hunt with. 
"Once a bow passes 65% letoff it loses its primitive status and becomes a vertically hand held xbow". Like I said before there are very few true bowhunters. A lot of bowhunters don't mind excluding others as long as the exclusion doesn't include them.. Gritty I can't believe that just because hunting approval is, some 60% that you feel that your state does not need and/or want the xbow for more votes..


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## x-shocker

Gritty said:


> I am a Director .. Not the President.. The Wisconsin Bowhunters is a Membership run organization.. not a board run.. Meaning the Membership creates policy and not the board.. we merely defend what our membership grants us too... That being said .. The Membership Of the WBH has a floor membership voted binding position that absolutely no crossbow prolifiration will be endorsed in the State of WI .,,,, Period.. and it continues to be that exact position...


WBH is like MN's Trout Unlimited. You can only catch trout from certain streams with certain means and must return the trout back to the stream on most streams.



> That is why I asked for the poll... Not to hear every Tom Dick and Harry who spent their wad lobbying for X-bows in all the states that fell to the invasion..


This hairy dick Tom knows for sure that some will opt to use a x-bow over a compound bow or a traditional bow but for a whole mass of new hunters joining the archery season will not happen:invasion, that one is hard to see. "Invasion of the X-bow hunters". That makes a good Sci-Fi movie title.




> But to get feedback from hunters who are willing to give up their club they shoot at here in WI... for hunters that are willing to give up their Proshop ..... Because like posted here by some of the Promoters.. Both are going to go when the x-bow invasion comes... but it is merely at the door and WI Bowhunters are willing to defend the bow season from shoulder fired weapons... If at some point they are allowed.. It will not be becasue the WBH did not do their job... we defend as directed by our membership... and our membership says ... No X-bows.....


Why would whining WBH compound-bow users have to give up their Proshops? According to you, X-bows are magical tools which requires almost no range time to become proficient. Is 5 minutes too much time taken from WBH compoundbow shooters to give up for a Proshop worker to setup a X-bow for the x-bow buyer? Or, is it because x-bow users will require more of the Proshops' time to get setup?

Why would whining WBH compound-bow users have to give up their club they shoot there in WI? That one just doesn't make any sense at all.



> If anyone here is ready to put the X-bow in the same group as a Compound... I'd like to see anyone shoot 4 inch groups for the first time with my compound bow at 100 yrds.... in near dark conditions..I'll shoot your X-bow... lets say a C-note a shot.... sounds fair????.


I would like to see you shoot 4 inch groups at 100 yards, in broad day light. Get real!

I have seen a guy on You Tube shooting 4 inch groups at a 100 yards with a compound bow, though.



> Just because we shoot Compounds... doesn't mean I have not played with a x-bow for a afternoon to see what it could do with little or no practice to build form what so ever... Now ,, I am sure that the x-bow folks can shoot better then me with their shoulder fired weapon of choice... so don't waste time telling me they are the same as a Bow... they are a shoulder fired weapon capable of groups rivaling a rifled slug gun at 100 yrds... with little or no regular practice required...
> 
> If they are the same as a Hand drawn compound bow they would require hours of practice and set up.. Paper tuning,,, Cam tuning... arrow tuning,,, and a signifia=cant effort to instill mucsle memory for proper form time in and time out.. One can not take any bow out of any shop and head for the woods and kill with it with no practice of form at all..


Not true at all. Paper tuning took me all of 5 shots; three to get bullet holes, one at 10 yards, and one at 20 yards.

Recently I gave my old Browning Mantis to my 13 year old nephew. Guess what, after telling him which pin was set up for which yardage, he was bulls-eyeing. In fact, he shoots better than me because he has a solid stance (I shake, OK).



> This is the Position of The WBH.... and I will support and defend that position.. it is my job...


Not a very good position.


----------



## Silver Pine

x-shocker said:


> "Invasion of the X-bow hunters". That makes a good Sci-Fi movie title.



There could be a whole string of seguals -

_Return of the Xbow hunters

I was a teenage X-bow hunter

Abbott and Costello meet the X-bow hunter_

the possibilities are endless.


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## rattus58

:wink::grin:


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## NativeWay

I was to late to vote but it looks like the no's have it, good going people. :darkbeer:


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## rattus58

NativeWay said:


> I was to late to vote but it looks like the no's have it, good going people. :darkbeer:



Eh Brah... you went Laupahoehoe too or what?


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## DV1

I don't know the situation in Wisconsin, but I do know NJ tried it earlier this year. Just the idea of it caused so much trouble, the F&G Council deicded to drop it for at least two more years to see if they could figure out how to get them into bow season without pissing off all the bowhunters. I picked one up at a local store, held it, snapped it to my shoulder and looked through the scope, put my thumb on the safety...felt like gun hunting. I have had several opportunities to kill deer this year in bow season that I couldn't pull off because drawing either spooked the deer or would have spooked them, but with a x-bow, I could have killed each of them...just like if I had a shotgun. 

x-bows may have a place in hunting, but hunting with one isn't like bowhunting so their place isn't in bow season. I do think each state should let them be used whenever guns are used.


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## awshucks

"If anyone here is ready to put the X-bow in the same group as a Compound... I'd like to see anyone shoot 4 inch groups for the first time with my compound bow at 100 yrds.... in near dark conditions..I'll shoot your X-bow... lets say a C-note a shot.... sounds fair????."

This all comes from a highly suspect "test" performed by Mike Brust of WBH. Others have noticed major problems w/ proper target being photgraphed, ect, lol. I didn't care. The entire notion of xbows being accurate at 100 yds is asinine. First off, no broadheads, lol. Secondly, my Excal Exomax has a 25 FOOT mid range trajectory shooting that far, from what I've read. This slug gun analogy begs the question: So What? Even if you could get groups like that at ranges like that w/ bheads [you can't] what good is it? How do you know the hold over once you begin to go past the ethical ranges? Say 49 yds, 57 yds, 63 yds, 82 yds, 96 yds????? Btw; Mikey was challenged to repeat the "test" w/ witnesses. So far, he's declined.


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## gpalma

Gritty has his say and then, wants the thread closed, LOL. 

He didn't get the answers or the poll results that he wanted and now he wants nobody else to chime in. Imagine that, LOLOL. He really wasn't looking fror data, he wanted to throw his bloated chest out and voice HIS opinion. 

Thank God that there are enough sharp folks on the WBH board that see his anti-baiting and anti-crossbow agenda. Maybe they'll eventually censure him. Bet a shiny new dime that he doesn't get appointed the next time around


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## gpalma

> That is why I asked for the poll... Not to hear every Tom Dick and Harry who spent their wad lobbying for X-bows in all the states that fell to the invasion


Doesn't this quote of Gritty say it all?? I have forwarded his rants and slanted BS to the WBH board for their review. Of course, most of the other BOD members think that he's FOS up to his eyeballs already.


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