# Are we all kidding ourselves?



## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

If your release is activated by working on your shot process then it should be a surprise release. 

If your release is activated by what you see (the pin) then not much chance of a surprise release no matter what release you are using.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

one thingto keep n mind is that a well developed release execution is predictable. you learn by repetition, when the shot is going to break,...that is an unavoidable consequence of having an engine that runs consistently the same, every shot,...it cannot be avoided. it is specifically what your internal clock is designed to do and that clock, is the main character in developing a engine that runs as consistently as is needed for good shooting. 
the key is that while training your engine to run that way, you are also conditioning your shot and follow through, to deal with the fact that you will eventually learn just when the shot is going to break. that is the aspect that requires you to learn to fully relax during the execution. when relaxed, you react consistently to the shot breaking, despite knowing when the shot is going to break.


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## wacker stacker (Feb 2, 2006)

I never know when my shots are going to go off with any release. If I command shoot or punch for any reason my arrow flight suffers 100% of the time. If you know when your shot is going off then you are not shooting any where near as good as you could be.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

At one time I thought the surprise release was a reality as there were so many times that when the shot went off, I wasn't exactly ready and in each case it as a 10 or an x. At the time of the shot my thought was "crap, a thrown shot...but no, it was a very good shot. After much discussion with tournament shooters, level 3 coaches and much examination of the shot process what I realized was that my brain simply got to know the sight picture and float I need to hit the middle....it took thousands of training shots to get this to happen. After doing it enough with positive results the brain just knows what's required to make the shot...it becomes habit so there isn't much thought to it (some call it muscle memory). 

if you think a surprise release is the way to make the shot happen, just have a friend fire the shot for you...zero communication between shooter and person firing the release--- use a trigger release with a string tied to it....the person firing the release gets to fire any time from when they see your on target and 30 seconds later. I guarantee that your groups will open up...remember, we're testing "surprise- you have absolutely no idea when the shot will fire".

I know of a couple people that have used the hydraulic release who have said it's a surprise when the shot goes. After closer examination they really just have a stable float and long firing engine...they still know the shot is going off...they made the choice for the shot to go when they were ready. 

The whole multiple release training will still have the shooter know the shot timing. Eventually you'll get to know what release you have in your hand and work that into your firing engine. If I hand you a release that you've never shot and have no idea how it's setup...you're not going to shoot it well.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a perfomance based guy and about 6 to 7 years ago I had a goal of shooting 35 out of 40 targets at a 3d shoot without flinches and I totally failed to meet that goal even one time that year. No matter how hard I tried I flinched more than 5 times per round every round, that failure week after week lead me to hinge shooting. It did take me a while to become a real hing shooter but I now go months and thousands of shots without a flinch and it is something that is simply not a issue anymore period.

Now when I am shooting indoor and on perfectly flat footing and cranking out tons of shot yes I basically know when the shot is going to break because everything is perfect and the same every shot but when I am outside at a 3d with funny shooting and poor footing almost every shot breaks slightly different but similar. 

In the end I enjoy both types of shooting and the lessons that I have learned allow me to do both types without any flinches ever, I do think that if you are questioning this you probably haven't cleaned all the garbage out of your mental approaches to allow you to do this and are hanging on to things that just need to be let go of. All I can tell you is that it is awesome once you get there and it has nothing to do with kind of knowing the shot is going to break or be a surprise. 

By the way, this has nothing to do with me being a equal with reo or levi or jesse, it has everything to do with me being happy with my shooting and sending smoothly executed shots on their way to either hitting or missing what I am aiming at. Just because I am not a pro doesn't mean that I can't send smooth arrows to the target every time.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly. it's all about training the shot process to be able to deal with the fact that you have an internal clock, that will learn when the shot is going to happen. we cannot turn that clock off, we can only teach ourselves to deal with it being there.
anybody that's shot a lot o spots, know what it is to steer a shot that fell of the center just before the shot breaks. we can only do this, because our internal clock has learned exactly when the shot is going to break.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

I have little experience in archery but I have been shooting competitively air pistol ( and a lot of years back free pistol and rapid fire pistol) at a national level.
Trigger punching is completely different to command shooting. I do not believe there is even one top level athlete in a target related sport that is not aware of when his shot will go off.
Maybe not to the millisecond but the moment your sight limits movement you should start the shot sequence slowly squeezing the trigger, pulling with your back muscles, relaxing your fingers or whatever it is you do to fire the shot. Anything else would result in a shot being fired before you are ready or after too much holding time when your sight picture deteriorates.
It might feel as a surprise shot but it is not.
I do not know if any of you guys are familiar with the Scatt Training system . We use it in target shooting and is a very valuable tool. You can go to their site ( www.scatt.com ) and download the program which includes files from top level athletes and see their sight movement.
I believe it would give you some interesting insight.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

As ron_w alludes to, there's a difference between knowing when the shot is going to go off and actually commanding the shot. They only way they're related is, when command-shooting, you know precisely when the shot is going to go off: at the point that you make the decision to rip the release back, etc. When you have a shot routine where the actual release is done for you, you have a window of time in which you know it's going to go off, but not an exact time.

On my recurve after I settle in and my checklist is completed, the only command I make is "execute". Then I literally take a break until the clicker clicks. I actually use the same routine with my compound which I shoot with a "tension style" release. My only job is to hold on target best I can and stay relaxed while the automated increase in back tension runs by itself.

So from what I read here, I don't see a move towards command shooting. It's more learning how to automate the release, which is a little different from knowing when the shot is going to happen.

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I am of a "learn the release, learn you" kind of guy. Index, thumb or hinge makes no difference. "Float" is where I'm not on target, settled down. My pin settles on target I automatically add tension and the pin just plain freezes, no movement and the release fires seemingly all by it's self. Shot doesn't go off, the pin starts to wander and it's time to let down and I wish I did more often.

You hear of some top shooters switching releases during a event. A few thoughts surround this. One Pro noted he was experiencing some issue and went to a heavier (colder) release to re-enforce his execution. Some say it's keep them on their toes or stay frosty.

In another Thread here I noted spending some time with Mike Flier. Mike tried all my hinges and gave of how each felt. I offered him my allen wrench pack to tweak which ever or all hinges as he wished. He declined, wanting to run his shot with the different slightly hot and slightly cold releases. So his "cold and hot" were different than my "cold and hot." 
Mike knows what he's doing and not once did I question him.

Cold and Hot exists for other releases. I sold my Stan Shootoff (thumb) earlier this month. It was set fairly heavy. The new owner found he liked it set even heavier! I didn't disagree with him in the least. I have my TRU Balls set heavy and wished I could set them heavier. Michelle Ragsdale once said to have her release set so heavy others thought it wouldn't go off, but it off for her almost like magic. 

My Scott Mongoose index has no adjustment other than travel. I would say it's overly light, not hair triggered, but close. Still, I know where the trigger is, know how it will fire and I shot it successfully in competition for years. I even went through some glitches (TP) with it and came back strong as ever. I still use this release to deer hunting. If anything I love deer hunting when the snow is on and cold as my index may get I know where the trigger is and so far have never fired it unexpectedly....


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

2:40

Just as good of an explanation as any.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think once you remove the anxiety from your shot the execution can shift from "NOW!!!!!" to "just let it run" then it doesn't matter if you know exactly when the release will fire. All you are doing is applying consistent pressure into the wall and spectating your float. If either that pressure or float aren't what you want then you let down and reset.

Easy in theory...


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I think, as Reo's video suggests, most pros and top shooters have an idea of when the release will fire, but there is still a window where you don't know exactly when it will go.
We see top shooters with some crazy follow through on shots that went off when they would rather it didn't.
We see pros taking a longer or shorter time to fire, depending on lots of variables (stress, wind, exhaustion (mental or physical)).
When everything is absolutely perfect, that window gets smaller, but never really goes away.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Thanks for the comments.


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## chevy_freak (Sep 27, 2015)

In my opinion, it depends on the shooter and their habits. 

I can shoot a trigger, hinge, or thumb without being "surprised". However, my point of impact doesn't shift a noticeable amount switching between them. It's more important to not punch, or try and predict exactly where it's going to go while the sight is dancing. If it's dancing figure out why and correct that before you start trying to "catch" an x while it dances across. 
Watching my dad shoot any trigger is fun, as he only makes it about 5 shots before he starts slapping at it. He tried a bunch of different releases and the one that finally worked for him was a spot-hog that was cocked by pushing the thumb button, and released upon the button coming out. For his personal mental demons it just really works. 

I have had a lot of fun with a golden key answer. It had been a great way to show new shooters what slow trigger pull really means, and how to squeeze instead of grab.

The #1 thing that improved my shooting was learning when you're not feeling it and you've been holding too long to let down and take a breath. Start from the beginning and draw and watch your sight.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I went out and tried to punch my hinge release and just couldn't do it. I have been shooting so long using a hinge that it just does not seem natural to do any punching at least intentionally. 

So for me I guess that it doesn't matter if I am triggering the release because if I intentionally try to trigger the release it aint happening.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

hinges are probably the hardest release there is to "punch", you end up doing what is called "ripping the release off the string" and it really feels obvious that you should not be doing that !.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

We refer to punching a hinge as "dumping". At least in our parts.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

With a hinge my favorite style to watch is the "Click Fire" guys, I see this through out the season from time to time where you shoot with a guy at a asa or local tournament and it is his turn on target one and you watch him come to anchor and start rotating the release and as soon as you hear the click the bow fires. the first thing that comes to mind is that he had a misfire but he doesn't act funny and just checks to see where he hit, then for the rest of the afternoon you get to watch him click fire over and over. Most of the time it is a low level shooter that just got a new hinge but I have ran into a guy good enough to be on the podium at the national level in semi pro doing it also.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

I noticed something interesting yesterday when trying various settings on my Stan. The backstory is I've been using the release set relatively neutral, which for the moment I mean drawn with what feels to be equal pressure across all four fingers and thumb. Although I like the feeling of that, I often "hang up" or "get strong" on my index finger, as Reo describes in how he conceptualized the HBX, and take much too long to release the arrow. That led me to trying a "faster" [please let's not debate this - you know what I mean] setting whereby I drew with pressure only on my first three fingers and thumb, and would place my 4th finger on after getting to full draw and hit the click with very little pressure from the 4th finger - somewhat like Braden G. *appeared* to do a year or two ago [again, "appeared", not saying "did"]. 

At first, it was awesome. Draw, anchor, settle in, place the 4th finger on the release, relax hand/add a little back tension and "bam" - nice strong shot, no wasted time. I thought: "fantastic - this is the way to do it" and started practicing that technique. However, what I also noticed is that this engine was so predictable when it would fire that it was almost like my 4th finger was touching a hair trigger. All to say, it became, in essence, a command shot because for all practical purposes, I knew when the shot would go off. What I found interesting is how fast the target panic that I worked so hard to get rid of last winter came back. Inside of less than 100 shots with this new engine, I noticed myself getting shaky just before the shot would go off. 

So, back to a "slower" setting and working on the Griv engine. Also, I'm wondering if my clicker sear is too sensetive: .010". That's not much between click and release and might be contributing to anticipation. In any case, the fun continues


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I think my .006" clicker is great.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

subconsciously said:


> We refer to punching a hinge as "dumping". At least in our parts.


 yup, "I dumped the shot"....."I ripped that shot",....same meaning,....one maybe a bit more sarcastic and ticked off about one's self, but the same meaning. we used "dumped" allot , too.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Padgett said:


> With a hinge my favorite style to watch is the "Click Fire" guys, I see this through out the season from time to time where you shoot with a guy at a asa or local tournament and it is his turn on target one and you watch him come to anchor and start rotating the release and as soon as you hear the click the bow fires. the first thing that comes to mind is that he had a misfire but he doesn't act funny and just checks to see where he hit, then for the rest of the afternoon you get to watch him click fire over and over. Most of the time it is a low level shooter that just got a new hinge but I have ran into a guy good enough to be on the podium at the national level in semi pro doing it also.


 some how, many times, people get the functions of a "clicker" on a recurve and the "click" on hinge confused, thinking they are to be used the same way and sometimes people just have too much going on in their heads when they try to use a click. the key is to learn and understand what the click is for.
some where, someone, might have mentioned to try a click for some problem the guy is having, when the application is not at all requisite to the problem. the guy goes out and buys a release with a click, and never bothers to do any research or learning about how to use it. 
in most cases like this, the that suggested the click, has idea about how they should be used, any more than the guy trying to use it. this is a common thing I see on forums where just anybody can suggest anything they think might be a remedy to someone's problem.
there's far too many people who know all about equipment and very little about using it and/or shooting.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

ron w said:


> some how, many times, people get the functions of a "clicker" on a recurve and the "click" on hinge confused, thinking they are to be used the same way and sometimes people just have too much going on in their heads when they try to use a click. the key is to learn and understand what the click is for.
> some where, someone, might have mentioned to try a click for some problem the guy is having, when the application is not at all requisite to the problem. the guy goes out and buys a release with a click, and never bothers to do any research or learning about how to use it.
> in most cases like this, the that suggested the click, has idea about how they should be used, any more than the guy trying to use it. this is a common thing I see on forums where just anybody can suggest anything they think might be a remedy to someone's problem.
> there's far too many people who know all about equipment and very little about using it and/or shooting.


Yeah I hear that a lot too, I think it's because the names are so similar that folks confuse them: a hinge with a "clicker" becomes associated with the "clicker" on a recurve.... 

But their functions couldn't be more different. The purpose of a clicker on a recurve bow is actually analogous to the release function in a release aid - the RA performs the release for you and the clicker on a recurve performs the release for you. The latter differs only in the mechanism; instead of a sear going over the edge, a click sound is generated which prompts a completely subconscious skill in the archer to relax the fingers. Else, the functions are identical (and occur long after the archer goes "execute")....

DM


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Padgett said:


> With a hinge my favorite style to watch is the "Click Fire" guys, I see this through out the season from time to time where you shoot with a guy at a asa or local tournament and it is his turn on target one and you watch him come to anchor and start rotating the release and as soon as you hear the click the bow fires. the first thing that comes to mind is that he had a misfire but he doesn't act funny and just checks to see where he hit, then for the rest of the afternoon you get to watch him click fire over and over. Most of the time it is a low level shooter that just got a new hinge but I have ran into a guy good enough to be on the podium at the national level in semi pro doing it also.


I hand my hinge to quite a few shooters who seem to be having issue with their wrist triggers. I explain drawing with even pressure and hearing the click as you come off the peg. About 50% have to do some significant hand manipulation to get the click (hey it's set for me right?) the other 50% say they feel no click at all.
For me the click to release distance (TB HT3) feels pretty significant, the thought that anyone would rotate the release fast enough to blow right past it was a little boggling.

I think maybe the disconnect is that I've been a finger shooter all my life. Maintaining a relaxed hand with almost imperceptible movement during the execution is my normal.

-Grant


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, irun into guys using a lick like that all the time. they just run through their execution and let the click sound, never pausing at the click to gather their shot preparation.....it leaves me wondering why the have a release with click moon in it.
I think some of them don't realize the click is "something extra" on the release. you can surely see they don't understand how it should be used, that's for sure. 
I' politely asked a few of them if they would like to learn about what a click is for and how they decided to try one, and almost all of them said "my buddy, "so and so" told me I should try one", or they "read about them online".
that last part, is exactly why some of my posts get sort of long. I think if you are going to talk about something different, on a site where people are coming and looking for answers , you can't just throw something out there and not supply some somewhat deep pertinent information about the subject. all too often, people walk away from short answers in a completely misguided light, because there is little information to support the suggestion or answer.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

hinges, click or not, aren't about how they are used, they are about how they are thought about,...being used.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> . I think if you are going to talk about something different, on a site where people are coming and looking for answers , you can't just throw something out there and not supply some somewhat deep pertinent information about the subject. all too often, people walk away from short answers in a completely misguided light, because there is little information to support the suggestion or answer.


And all too often so much is put forth where people walk away. The answer is too massive or too complex. The problem is we are not one-on-one with someone so steps can be taken in, absorbed. As such, here, many times simple and short is best.

Another problem here, the Poster or person asking doesn't reply until 5 days later and 19 replies have piled in. The replies could be great, but so dang much to read through.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I agree with you both and these are probably the primary reasons some people get frustrated with this forum. All too often less experienced shooters pose a question on here wishing to solve some shooting issue they may be having when they really do not have a good grasp of what is causing their problem in the first place. They read a lot of responses that are correct, but obviously well above their level of understanding and they vanish from sight. 

This is why basic questions really should be redirected to more appropriate forums. Someone just getting into target archery or getting back into it following a 20 yer hiatus is not going to know all the nuances associated with shooting a hinge or using many other pieces of equipment that go beyond the basics and all our well meaning replies here only serve to muddy the waters further for them...

I am not being elitist, but practical. Many times these posters really need to get with a more advanced archer for some quality one-on-one time, but here again, they often seek the quick and cheap resolution of their problem which we really cannot provide from behind a keyboard...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yea, I suggested that would be problem when the question of building a sub-forum like this one, was presented. unfortunately, the short answer is not what this forum is all about,...... at least, IMHO,..... I don't think so. 
maybe I learned differently than others,...... but in my opinion,..... anyone advanced enough to feel qualified to participate in this forum, I would think, should expect more than a couple words,.....(some respectable support),..... when a question is answered.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I look at a reply and if it's a "mile" long or has too much technical jargon it's wrong even if it is totally correct. Fact is we don't know who we are dealing with.....


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Padgett said:


> With a hinge my favorite style to watch is the "Click Fire" guys, I see this through out the season from time to time where you shoot with a guy at a asa or local tournament and it is his turn on target one and you watch him come to anchor and start rotating the release and as soon as you hear the click the bow fires. the first thing that comes to mind is that he had a misfire but he doesn't act funny and just checks to see where he hit, then for the rest of the afternoon you get to watch him click fire over and over. Most of the time it is a low level shooter that just got a new hinge but I have ran into a guy good enough to be on the podium at the national level in semi pro doing it also.


I shoot with a guy that does this very well also, he was a former olympic style shooter though. They are USED to firing when they hear the click. Me, I can't do that!


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

montigre said:


> I agree with you both and these are probably the primary reasons some people get frustrated with this forum. All too often less experienced shooters pose a question on here wishing to solve some shooting issue they may be having when they really do not have a good grasp of what is causing their problem in the first place. They read a lot of responses that are correct, but obviously well above their level of understanding and they vanish from sight.
> 
> This is why basic questions really should be redirected to more appropriate forums. Someone just getting into target archery or getting back into it following a 20 yer hiatus is not going to know all the nuances associated with shooting a hinge or using many other pieces of equipment that go beyond the basics and all our well meaning replies here only serve to muddy the waters further for them...
> 
> I am not being elitist, but practical. Many times these posters really need to get with a more advanced archer for some quality one-on-one time, but here again, they often seek the quick and cheap resolution of their problem which we really cannot provide from behind a keyboard...


The other problem with this I see is to many times it turns into pi$$in match if one persons way or answer is not accepted as correct. The only thing I know about archery to be great at it is consistency. You can do every thing against the "norm" of proper shooting but do it the same every time and you will have great results. The bow does not know if your form is correct or if you're using your release the "right" way etc.

One has only to go to a large tournament, indoor or out, spot or 3D, and look at the equipment and watch the shooters. No 2 bows are set up alike or shot the same way. This is a very individualized sport. Those of us who consider ourselves advanced shooters need to realize this. We can take new shooters and show them the basics to proper form and fit and then help them to find what works best for them. 

Too many of these threads end up as arguments and the original question remains just that to the original poster. Kinda like this:wink:

JOHN


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I started my hinge shooting with a .004" clicker. I loved the small clicker but after 6 months the clicker wore to the point that when it clicked it would fire. I then bought a .008" clicker and it was so slow that I developed many bad habits and it caused major problems with me trying to shoot a bow with limb stops. I went to a .006" clicker because I knew that the .004" clickers would wear to quickly. After shooting the .006" clicker for 5 years I am finally getting a pretty good feel for it.

I try to use the clicker as a set point to start my shot process not as a point to fire. I want to get close on target then relax my release hand until I hear the click and then start my final aiming process. If things go like I want the release will fire in a 3 to 5 second window.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sharkred7 said:


> I shoot with a guy that does this very well also, he was a former olympic style shooter though. They are USED to firing when they hear the click. Me, I can't do that!


 there's a vast difference in the mechanisms,....both mental and physical,..... that a click on a release promotes, compared to the clicker on a recurve. you have to learn and understand the difference, in order to be able to benefit from either one. their functions are actually fully opposite on the functional spectrum, that is a well executed shot.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I try to use the clicker as a set point to start my shot process not as a point to fire. I want to get close on target then relax my release hand until I hear the click and then start my final aiming process. If things go like I want the release will fire in a 3 to 5 second window.[/QUOTE]

this is the right mental application of using a click.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

That happened to me a while back when I first tried a hinge setup with a click on my compound bow. Darn near let the thing fly when it clicked because I wasn't concentrating, luckily I stopped myself before it and the arrow made their way out to the target. I'm just more comfortable with my Evolution so I didn't use the hinge for long, but I very quickly came to like the click. It gave me a very definite final step to perform before I went "execute". 

DM


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as I've said so many times,.....that click is supposed to be the separator between shot preparation and anything left, that that makes the arrow leave the bow......after the click, the only thing you should have to do, is aim hard and get rid of the arrow.....absolutely nothing else should be going on after the click. if there is more than that going on, it is time to let down and abandon the shot, then go back to the short bale and develop your execution to work within that definition.


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

If you're letting your subconscious release the arrow for you, no punchee. If not, well, yeah.

As to which release - use whatever you're comfortable with. Yes, for most archers, hinges do take longer to learn. I'd also say that while many claim their hinge cured their TP, even more tend to go back to what they were previously comfortable with once they are TP-free. At least, that's what I hear from many of my users.


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