# Modification to Kisik Lee's Technique?



## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

That has been around for a while if I'm correct. Brady and members of the USAT have been drawing away from the face for quite some time now.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

That has always been a component of Lee's NTS system. His draw is angular instead of linear.



Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The only difference between KSL's method and all the other draws is the isolation of the biceps and the constant minimum angle between the draw force line and the bow arm. Every other aspect that comes with that method produces an illusion of unnecessary movement, but is in fact just a feature of the by-product of the muscle isolation and bow arm efficiency. A large number of practitioners mistakenly perform these motions without understanding the nature of those actions, and in the process neglect the most important part of that method.

Usage of the biceps will exclude those motions which appears to observers as "angular draw". In fact, ALL draws are linear with respect to the bow, and angular with respect to the archer.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

It is indeed part of NTS and it works like this. At Setup, your fingers are on the string, arms raised, and arrow pointing at the target. You then draw (Load) by moving your elbow (rotating the shoulder), leaving your biceps and forearm muscles loose and unengaged. This causes the string to come out and around, instead of straight back. It takes more muscles to do the linear draw and is therefore less efficient. The idea is to conserve energy and use your body as efficiently as possible.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

theminoritydude said:


> In fact, ALL draws are linear with respect to the bow, and angular with respect to the archer.


This is precisely the point that most people seem to have confusion about regarding exactly what "angular draw" is. Well put!

If I interpret correctly, the "angular" part of "angular draw" is that the arrow drawing motion (which is largely linear) is produced by the angular motion of the drawing arm around the spine using the proper muscles, not by all the other weird machinations that I've seen on the shooting lines sometimes. For example, the "candy cane". If you've heard/seen this, you'll know what I mean. 

A note - just because I understand it doesn't mean I'm particularly good at doing it!


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## Kim Jong Skill (Dec 19, 2014)

If you watch Zach shoot, hes got a pretty intense angular draw. The candy cane is usually the result of the angular draw. Starting the bow off on one side helps you "open" the bow a little easier for that sweet angle.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Kim Jong Skill said:


> Starting the bow off on one side helps you "open" the bow a little easier for that sweet angle.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


That's precisely the illusion I was referring to. That starting sideway of the bow arm is not for the opening up, it's for keeping the draw force angle to the bow arm at a constant minimum. If you shoot that technique without first understanding the reason behind it, you'd end up varying that angle, resulting in fluctuating torque of the bow shoulder, instead of a smooth and gradual increase in loading.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There is an old saying: 不是樹在動，而是你的心在動。


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Shooting techniques evolve continuously, and of course need to be fitted to specific body shapes and body changes. For sure, present Brady's shooting style has nothing to do with the one he was using 7 years ago, but also his body structure is changed a lot in these years. 
What I have have also seen from London to Rio is an evident decreasing of the (left/high ) offset angles at the start of his traction, proabably reduced to remain inside the limit of the WA rules for traction (or only to increase consistency ..?.) 

As there is nothing new under the sun of Archery, for instance I have also seen a lot of the principles of Power Archery (1968) coming back in Garret's personal style. 

Definitely, linear drawing remains the most efficient sytem to get consistence, and numbers of top archers using it talk by themselves. 

Just small observations from outside without going into too many details ...


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

j.conner said:


> It is indeed part of NTS and it works like this. At Setup, your fingers are on the string, arms raised, and arrow pointing at the target. You then draw (Load) by moving your elbow (rotating the shoulder), leaving your biceps and forearm muscles loose and unengaged. This causes the string to come out and around, instead of straight back. * It takes more muscles to do the linear draw and is therefore less efficient. The idea is to conserve energy and use your body as efficiently as possible*.


Well all they guys who employ "angular draw" and very strong, all girls shoot "linear draw" and I bet they are not as strong. This telling me linear draw is more efficient as it's easier (physically) to perform.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It takes more muscles to do the linear draw and is therefore less efficient. The idea is to conserve energy and use your body as efficiently as possible.


Anyone want to agree with this?

And if the Koreans are still dominating the world without using the "most efficient" method, they must be even better athletes than we realize.

In 2006, myself and a whole lot of other US coaches and NAA officials were sold a method that was supposed to perform better *under pressure*. That was the #1 selling point, lest we all forget (or weren't there to hear it). Endless examples of Tim Cuddihy were thrown at us as the role model for this method being the "best" under pressure (despite him not making the finals in Athens).

So how would an objective, unbiased observer say that's worked out for us? Have our archers indeed been the best "under pressure" because of the technique they are being taught?

I think one fact remains consistently true - that Brady himself has always been able to handle pressure well. Just like he did on his way to a Jr. World Championship in 2005. He proved once again in Rio that he has the strongest mental game of any U.S. Olympic archer since a guy named Wunderle.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

It does not take more muscles to linear draw. It takes knowing what muscles to USE. And using them wisely.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

All draws are linear draws.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Another benefit for some is that it is easier on the drawing shoulder. I have found it more comfortable myself, eliminating some creaking and popping, but others mileage may vary.

I see the logic drawing with fewer muscles and not engaging those that are not required, however one drawback with many of the new style adjustments is that some likely are forcing the motion is an attempt to replicate it. Sometimes faking it until you get it works, but sometimes it is just a distraction. I think that, as a coach or instructor, it goes into the long list of things to try and see if it helps. I don't know if anyone actually does 100% pure NTS, or if NTS itself remains static long enough for anyone to do it 100%. (This is not a criticism, it is just always evolving and changing, which can be regarded as a good thing.)

Note also that this is specific to target archery, where the goal is to have a strong shot on every one of nearly a hundred consecutive arrows. I would recommend a linear draw for bowhunting, for example, trying to minimize motion that could get the attention of the game. I also generally like a smooth controlled draw, one that oozes "I am in command of this bow".


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

j.conner said:


> It takes more muscles to do the linear draw and is therefore less efficient. The idea is to conserve energy and use your body as efficiently as possible.


completely disagree. It is the exact opposite. 

The linear draw uses the natural position of the bones from wrist to shoulder to take the load during the push. 

Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I see the ignore function is finally working.


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## Kim Jong Skill (Dec 19, 2014)

I switched to an angular draw some months ago and it has increased by draw length by ~.5 inch and its easier to get to anchor and transfer because my back is already engaged and the movement is small. Before, I would first set my bow arm and then start a linear draw and I felt a little more wear on my shoulder and it was hard to slowly engage my back compared to getting fully into my back with the set up motion. I feel like angular draw is definitely not intuitive and easy to "replicate" while still doing a linear draw. That being said, I do think it has its benefits. The one downside i've experienced is if I have a "weak" set up, it is damn near impossible to go through the clicker.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

j.conner said:


> Another benefit for some is that it is easier on the drawing shoulder. I have found it more comfortable myself, eliminating some creaking and popping, but others mileage may vary.
> 
> I see the logic drawing with fewer muscles and not engaging those that are not required, however one drawback with many of the new style adjustments is that some likely are forcing the motion is an attempt to replicate it. Sometimes faking it until you get it works, but sometimes it is just a distraction. I think that, as a coach or instructor, it goes into the long list of things to try and see if it helps. I don't know if anyone actually does 100% pure NTS, or if NTS itself remains static long enough for anyone to do it 100%. (This is not a criticism, it is just always evolving and changing, which can be regarded as a good thing.)
> 
> Note also that this is specific to target archery, where the goal is to have a strong shot on every one of nearly a hundred consecutive arrows. I would recommend a linear draw for bowhunting, for example, trying to minimize motion that could get the attention of the game. *I also generally like a smooth controlled draw, one that oozes "I am in command of this bow"*.


So you must love Korean archers as their draw is smoothness beauty.....and yes, the do traditional "linear" draw


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Drawing well outside one's face, then stopping the drawing motion to pull the hand into anchor, then starting the rotation is anything but a smooth motion. In fact, it's nearly as contorted and contrived as some things I see the Europeans doing. Having said that, some of them shoot just fine, so who's to say what's "best?"


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

In the other thread about stepping up our training game, someone posted a link to an article about Koreans and archery. I found this quote interesting:

_"She said that South Korean coaches do a better job than their counterparts in other countries at finding the right training methods and motions for each archer based on their physical traits and shooting style."_


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I read that too, and immediately thought about all the conversation we've heard about BEST/NTS being adapted to the individual - here and elsewhere. Hard to know what to make of it though.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I read that too, and immediately thought about all the conversation we've heard about BEST/NTS being adapted to the individual - here and elsewhere. Hard to know what to make of it though.


Depends on the coach( NTS level 4). I shoot with a woman who shot collegiate back in the Pleistocene and our coach would in no way mess that THAT as my compadre is a bearcat to beat (although I do it from time to time). 

As a general ruleour coach doesn't advocate the away from the face pull in thing. If you're doing it right at "set up" and "draw to load" your string hand would be mostly right there to come up under the chin to anchor. 

Or something like that.

There is something about this candy cane thing that can result in a scrunched up bow shoulder. Perhaps it is the exaggerated "do this, do that, turn around jump down" etc gyrations. In other words the "opening the bow", set up if not done "correctly" has the bow shoulder popping up. Yet one more thing to fix.

My draw length increased as well but it had SQUAT to do with. It had to do with understanding the muscles used for an efficient draw.

Had to do with practice, and working out with a stretch band and, kettle bell and TRX and strengthening the appropriate muscles groups to do this thing and get better.

Any method where you understand what is the most efficient use of yourself will work. It's not limited to NTS. That's not a "silver bullet".


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The so-called "candy cane" is nothing more than the stabilizer following the line of the arrow/forearm through the draw cycle, as it's been taught. I've seen some tiny "candy canes" like Brady's, and some enormous "candy canes" like the ones several JOAD archers were creating in Ohio a few years ago, that nearly got them kicked out of the tournament once people started to complain to the judges.


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## Georgemay (May 27, 2008)

j.conner said:


> It is indeed part of NTS and it works like this. At Setup, your fingers are on the string, arms raised, and arrow pointing at the target. You then draw (Load) by moving your elbow (rotating the shoulder), leaving your biceps and forearm muscles loose and unengaged.


The easiest way to try to understand angular draw is to hook up formaster, and draw straight, all the way to anchor without help of fingers.


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## BigPapi (Aug 24, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> The so-called "candy cane" is nothing more than the stabilizer following the line of the arrow/forearm through the draw cycle, as it's been taught. I've seen some tiny "candy canes" like Brady's, and some enormous "candy canes" like the ones several JOAD archers were creating in Ohio a few years ago, that nearly got them kicked out of the tournament once people started to complain to the judges.


Not necessarily. Are you thinking more about the swing of the stabilizer from left to right (or right to left for a LH)? The candy cane should be caused more from the bow arm being lifted open to the target and coming down at an angle as coiling happens and the shoulders align. You could theoretically have the candy cane look in the bow arm and be out of arrow line alignment. I definitely agree it can be way too big though, which is where you see kids or adults have potential for issues.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> That has always been a component of Lee's NTS system. His draw is angular instead of linear.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


Being new to Olympic recurve finding what good, better or best is ongoing. The best compound shooters in my area use an angular draw. Having tried it with compounds I began using it with the recurve. What I found is that it works better for me. It's easier on my muscles and loads the draw more consistently. More importantly the difference is very noticeable in my groups. 
My own angular draw isn't exaggerated and always in a straight line with my bow arm which goes from slightly elevated left of target to dead on aiming point with far less likelihood of head movement. 
There is slight turning of the upper body with far less stress on the arm and shoulder. <Old shoulder and bad neck> This angular draw also allows me to "feel" my back muscles working to load better than when using a linear draw. It also allows my anchor to be in place consistently. <A corrected flaw>
Whether considered right or wrong the benefit, for me, is measurable based on result.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

I'm looking for the book "Power Archery" by David J Keaggy, 1968... When I started in 1973, many were referring to Power Archery for the shooting sequence and the way to come out from cliker. In my memory, some part of that tecnique was quite similar to some of the "new" ones. If i well remeber, it was based on an open traction and a simemtric compression of the back , but frankly I need that book to check. From Google I can see that some libraries still have it in USA,or may be one of the "less young" on this forum may have it...


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> I'm looking for the book "Power Archery" by David J Keaggy, 1968... When I started in 1973, many were referring to Power Archery for the shooting sequence and the way to come out from cliker. In my memory, some part of that tecnique was quite similar to some of the "new" ones. If i well remeber, it was based on an open traction and a simemtric compression of the back , but frankly I need that book to check. From Google I can see that some libraries still have it in USA,or may be one of the "less young" on this forum may have it...


Amazon shows it available: https://www.amazon.com/Power-archery-David-J-Keaggy/dp/B0007EPDN8


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

If you start out from set position with your string arm by your waist as you raise your bow your string hand is moved away from your body by virtue of the fact that your upper arm is at a right angle(or so) to your body. If you set up properly your string hand is in front of your face and out from your body. If you are drawing properly your string hand travels in a STRAIGHT LINE to your loading position under your chin and then slightly raised to anchor. Your elbow moves in a circular motion around your shoulder joint. That's the angular part. If you watch someone who taught himself out of the book or who was coached by someone who learned out of the book you will see their string hand move away from the body and then curve in to anchor. That is not an angular draw, that is a misunderstanding of what was described. You cannot get a good feel for it by watching videos or looking at pictures in a book. 

Archery is about getting to holding. How you get there is about how your body is constructed and what coaching religion you worship. I sometimes work with a 3 time Olympic archer who was taught to raise her bow so high that she needs to move her elbow down to draw properly. Some "Elite Coach" tried to "correct her style" by converting her to NTS. Totally messed up her shot sequence. Is she ever going to embrace NTS? No! Can I make simple changes to her movement to correct some motion flaws? Yes. After a few sessions she shot her best scores this season. Why? Because I didn't try to change the way she learned 30 years ago, made her movements more efficient and reminded her what holding properly feels like.


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Here are the libraries where one can find find *Power Archery*:

https://www.worldcat.org/title/power-archery/oclc/3681786&referer=brief_results

None near me, unfortunately...


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Spot-on, Ancient One! Although many exaggerate the movement, the key is rotation of the shoulder with no involvement of the wrist or elbow. At set up, just move the tip of the elbow back to load, as opposed to muscling the string to follow a specific path. I also agree that, as a coach or instructor, it is a tool in your toolbox to help your archers, not necessarily gospel for everyone.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> I'm looking for the book "Power Archery" by David J Keaggy, 1968... ..


Vittorio, PM sent. - John


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