# How to Upgrade



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

@[email protected]

Limbs and arrows. If you're adventurous enough, I'll send you my plunger.

Ok, let's listen to what the others have to say. Over to you guys.


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## stbullard (Jul 17, 2014)

What follows is an opinion - anyone else's will probably differ in at least a few respects, but here goes. First, let's talk budget. You have $650 in cash. Don't spend it. At least not all of it, all at once. Instead, think about how to incrementally upgrade your equipment. That way you have the flexibility to address stuff as it becomes a pain point, or replace something if it breaks. Imagine you only had $5 - what would you buy to tighten your groups? $10? $25? $100?

First, fix broken stuff. New sight pin. Then I'd buy two good strings - something that fits the nocks you'll be using, made of 8125G or better - most anything will be an improvement on Dacron. One as a backup. Budget $40 or so. It's an easy change, but should boost your confidence. Same with your tab: the tab is one of your two primary interfaces with the bow, and it's worth having something you feel good about. You should be able to find an AAE Elite tab for under $25. Something with a cordovan face, finger spacer, and ledge would be ideal. The X-Spot Deluxe plunger (aka Decut ZX229) is my next suggestion: micro-adjustable and much cheaper than a Beiter. If your plastic arrow rest isn't a Hoyt Super Rest, change it. Buy two, one as a spare. Buy extra kurly vanes, they'll need refletching more than you'd think. Buy your heavier limbs first and shoot with the Fantom, see if you can't make that combo work for 60m. Keep your stab, buy a cheap Cartel v-bar and side rods. Hit the hardware store for stab weights and threaded rod. Tune using the bow square, know your ideal nocking point height and brace height. Get or make a bow stand - a c-shape to hold the drip, a notch for the string, and a stable base shouldn't be all that hard to create with household items. As for arrows, make sure they'll still spine well when cut to your length. Keep in mind your draw length may still be changing.

If you can't find a coach, use what's at hand. Be aware that if you ask the Internet for form critique, you may get bad or wrong advice mixed in with usually a lot more good advice.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Want to tighten your groups? Invest time in training. What is your level now? Can you keep everything in the red at a FITA 40cm @ 18m?
About the hardware I would say, get two fastflight strings (no 8125 on wood core limbs), a sight pin and upgrade your fingers tab like stbullard said. I'm fond of the Fivics Saker 1, but it's not for everyone. If you can get to a shop and try some that would be great. Same goes for arrows when you upgrade, shoot some in the shop to see how they fly. Upgrade limbs (when needed, growing, becoming stronger) to SF Premiums, upgrade arrow rest when it becomes a problem. Bow Square is a must, I recommend the W&W/SF T Gauge.


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## wowsee (Aug 18, 2015)

In response to ThomVis: it's no problem keeping everything in red on a FITA 40cm @ 18m, I've been able to that for a while. What bothers me is consistency at the greater distances. The light poundage and lack of a plunger is really taking its toll at 50m.

I'd love to go to a store and try out tabs and arrows. Sadly not many have the stock. I live in San Jose, so I may be able to try out some arrows at the local compound shop down in gilroy. For anything else, I'll have to make the trip up to sf and find a place that lets me demo. StBullard, it'd be pretty helpful if you had any info on the shops up there, if not I'll just have to read reviews and get everything off lancaster.

I've been thinking about a tab for a while, but I thought it wouldn't be too high of a priority. The one I was thinking about is the Wiawis EZ tab, cordovan leather with a design that looks like it'll let me easily keep grip consistent. The only problem is the price point, if it's really worth it, I'll give it a go.

Almost everything else mentioned seems like it'll work, with the exception of the stab. If I complete my stab, it'll cost around $100 going for the cheap options. For 30$ more, I could buy the decut carbon crown set, pretty much a well-made rip-off of the HMC stab designs. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective just to get the set?

I'm also confused on the qualities of stuff I should get. Should the SF premiums be the purely wood versions? Or should I do carbon? Carbon and foam? How about the arrows? Is is really worth it to splurge the extra 75$ and get VAPs? Or should I stick with stiffer versions of what I'm using now? I've heard from a few sources that the arrows would affect the shot the least, as long as they're relatively low-profile and carbon they should work? But would the VAPs really help all that much?

Also, what's the reason against the riser based purchase? Everywhere I've looked, people have claimed the riser is the foundation of the bow, without a reasonable riser, you're really limited. Is this really the case? I suppose it would make sense, seeing as the riser is literally the central element of the bow. NUsensei in specific claims that intermediate archers should go cheap on the limbs and expensive on the first riser. Is the riser really not that integral? Or is the cartel just adequate enough already? The Sf premium deal is pretty enticing; an Inno CXT copy for around 300$ less that comes with a plunger.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The foundation of the bow is you. In Olympic recurve, you are part of the weapon.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

ThomVis said:


> I would say, get two fastflight strings (no 8125 on wood core limbs)



Can you elaborate on this statement? I've never heard about not using 8125 with wood core limbs. Win & Win even recommends 8125 for its limbs, with no disclaimer for wood/foam core.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

w - 

What you didn't mention were your scores. 
Your bow is fine and will out shoot you for some time.

Areas to upgrade, based on your list:

- Cartel Fantom Aluminum Riser (25") GOOD
- SF Axiom + Limbs (medium, 30#) GOOD, YOU'D HAVE TO GO INTO THE $500 RANGE FOR SOMETHING BETTER
- Fivics LVT Carbon Long Stabilizer (28") GOOD, BUT ADD APPROX 6 OUNCES OF HEAD WEIGHT
- Stone Mountain B-50 Recurve Bowstring (68", 16 strand) BAD SWITCH TO A 14 STRAND D97 STRING
- X-Spot Recurve sight <--- in my opinion the only good part about my entire setup GOOD
- Pre assembled Carbon Impact super club arrows (15/25, the correct spine for the 30#) BAD GET ALUMINUM ARROWS FOR INDOORS, POSSIBLY CARBON ONES FOR OUTDOORS
- X-Spot Solo Clicker 6-32 DON'T KNOW IF YOU NEED A CLICKER YET
- Plastic Arrow rest OK, BUT A REST AND PLUNGER WOULD BE MUCH BETTER AAE CHAMPION II REST = AAE PLUNGER
- Generic cheap calf hair finger tab BAD AAE CAVALIER TAB
- Generic cheap Arm guard GOOD
- Generic cheap bow-stringer GOOD
- Generic cheap quiver PROBABLY GOOD ENOUGH, YOUR CALL
- Shoestring tied into a finger sling PROBABLY GOOD ENOUGH, YOUR CALL

SPEND WHAT'S LEFT ON A PAIR OF EDUCATED EYES TO SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Look everybody wants new toys, but the fact is the only bad thing about your current riser is that it has limited limb adjustments. 
Again, having an idea about where you are scoring wise would help.

Viper1 out.


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## noobcaheo (Jun 15, 2011)

Brother, you don't really need all those craps to hit 60m. I was shooting my oldie samick aluminum riser non ilf with its old wood limbs probably made in the 90s and I grouped at 60m. All I had on it was an oldie doinker rod 28" with 10-12oz weights in front, a used shibuya plunger, a Hoyt super rest , a set of carbon impact, aae elite tab, cheap armguard, and a used sure loc challenger 400. This set up cost me about $300. Follow stbullard's advices and you should be good at 60m. And who ever told you that you need a full set of stabilizers to get your bow drop and swing is a noob. Read more about bow tunning and practice on form. While you doing that save up yo money and if later you decided that archery is yo passion, brother just go straight to high ends stuff, don't settle for intermediate craps. By that, i don't meant you have buy new riser and limbs at full price, buy used stuff on this forum is great source to look into.


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## jerectar (Oct 13, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> w -
> 
> What you didn't mention were your scores.
> Your bow is fine and will out shoot you for some time.
> ...


I agree that there's no need for this guy here to spend money on limbs just yet, and that he should move to alloy arrows + feathers and spend his time working of form and determining DL/DW at short ranges, but saying that you have to spend $500 to get something significantly better than Axiom limbs??


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

I can hit 60m pulling 30 #. Past that it's guesswork.

Nobody has ever dissed the Cartel Fantom riser. Eventually you will want something else, but I'd look for used.

A friend shoots the next step up Axiom limbs (he's pulling more weight) and nails it at 20 yards AND 70 meters. He is on a budget as well (used to use a piece of PVC pipe as a quiver and some random piece of aluminum for a stabilizer. )

Definitely D97 or 8125G for a string. When I started using custom 8125g strings, the difference was night and day. And it's a cheap upgrade. Just mind the center serving because if you are using CI SC, the nocks are pretty tiny and you don't want a thick serving.

Viper1 knows more than me on the arrow front, but I can't afford two sets of arrows. Us recurve shooters use to do the "indoor arrow/outdoor arrow" thing. Since I am in San Diego, my coach knows all the "biggies" in town and one of the RA's says carbon arrows are fine for indoors. So we're all using what we shoot outdoors. Compound people use the big aluminum line buster arrows but they are shooting a 3 spot.

You could upgrade to the Carbon Impact Ultrafast only for the straightness and weight guarantees -- and steel breakoff points so you can tune your point weight.

XS wings are supposedly more durable than other spinnies. I use them because "coach said to" and it's easy for me to refletch.

As for drop and swing? Another club member learned to shoot years ago and SHE doesn't drop and swing. And her scores are up there with adult men.

But beware of teaching yourself that because you can get into some pretty bad habits and the bow can go all over the place and have a negative affect on arrow flight. Trust me, I've done it. 

If you have $650, then find a coach and have two lessons at $50 an hour. Or 4 half hour lessons. A coach with a video camera. If you're in San Jose, there should be one around there someone.

Conventional wisdom is spending ## coaching. Seriously.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

From my perspective, which is still working on my shot, the only item I can see in the list that would make me shoot better would be the string and the arrows. 

As for the string, Dacron is very springy/sproingy and it actually can affect the shot a little bit. I'd go with a BCY 8125G 16 or 18 strand personally (think of 8125G material as a kind of suped-up Fast Flight). Though a D97 would work just as well. That rig will be fine with the 8125G material. 

I also agree about the arrows, a set of XX75 Platinums with NIBB points is inexpensive and will work perfectly for indoors (that's what I'd shoot if I could get them long enough in a weak enough spine for my setup). Outdoors it's going to get pricey, so that's just how dedicated you are to shooting outdoors also.

Those are the items that stick out in my mind. Else, I don't think I'd shoot any better upgrading anything else in your rig, so I can only go by that in terms of what I'd suggest to upgrade...

DM


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

jerectar said:


> I agree that there's no need for this guy here to spend money on limbs just yet, and that he should move to alloy arrows + feathers and spend his time working of form and determining DL/DW at short ranges, but saying that you have to spend $500 to get something significantly better than Axiom limbs??


Ain't no lie - those are actually superb limbs for $75. I have 2 pairs of these in training limb weights and they're really very good. Surprisingly good. I would agree that you'd have to spend quite a bit to get something significantly better.....

DM


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

MickeyBisco said:


> Can you elaborate on this statement? I've never heard about not using 8125 with wood core limbs. Win & Win even recommends 8125 for its limbs, with no disclaimer for wood/foam core.


High end wood core limbs 8125=ok. On the cheaper ones (Axiom, Premium) I wouldn't risk it, the less-stretch reward FF->8125 isn't worth the snap-the-limbtip risk, because these are mainly used by intermediate/beginners.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

No problem here with my Axiom +'s and 8125G after 1000's of shots now. Even BCY X at 14 strands doesn't seem to give them any trouble. I do shoot a pretty high draw weight/arrow weight ratio though, so the limbs are pretty well loaded. Maybe with very lightweight arrows it could cause some strain, but it's not a worry that I've encountered with my Axioms...

DM


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## sandperson0 (Mar 16, 2015)

For the string, I would learn to make your own. You can build your own string jig and then experiment with different materials and strand counts. Maybe you can convince some of your friends to share the expense if you share the jig and materials with them


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## Wags02 (Jul 24, 2015)

Here is my two cents. This is from someone who has spent a lot of money in the last two years on gear for 3 people shooting Olympic recurve. 

First of all I would keep your cartel riser for now, upgrade your string, arrows(acc's or Cx medallion) you can buy individually from lancasters to replace as needed. A Hoyt super rest and a shibuya dx plunger will last a long time. As others have said the axiom + limbs are a great value and shoot well. I would wait to upgrade to a top of the line limb until your draw weight and limb have settled to close to your final weight. 

Be patient, a lot of goods deals are found here in the classified ads. Don't over look buying a used top end riser over a new riser. I just picked up another Hoyt nexus and a Pse X factor for my daughter. I will never need another riser and she should be set for quite a few years. 

Enjoy the sport.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Medallion xr from eagle archery then replace shafts as needed from lancaster or more from eagle. 
You can order single test shafts from lancaster to determine what spine you need. 

Getting a good string(s) will literally make it feel like you got a new bow. Dacron is TERRIBLE.


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## stbullard (Jul 17, 2014)

PM'd, let me know if it didn't go through.


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## frankenarcher (Aug 18, 2015)

+1 for the AAE Elite (cavalier) tab. It is fantastic for the price.
+1 for the shibuya DX plunger. It will help immensely.
+1 for the string upgrade
+1 for the XS wings. nearly indestructible compared to others people at my club tried.

Also, I agree with what everyone is saying about keeping your current riser. I shot a samick avante until i maxed out its rated draw weight (cast aluminum risers get risky past 40#) and thats the only reason I upgraded. It cost $100 and could easily shoot better than me. 

As for the limbs, The SF carbon limbs you mentioned are really nice (my friend shoots #37 longs), but you can also find some killer deals on limbs here in the classified section. Or stick with the axioms until you reach your final draw weight. You won't go wrong either way.

As for coaching. I have largely taught myself (aside from some tips and pointers from archers along the way), and it is totally possible, but it takes a lot of work, and a lot of self awareness. I might recommend working as much as you can by yourself, and every once in a while splurging on an hour lesson with a coach you trust. They can keep you on track and make sure you are heading in the right direction.

Good luck


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## chase128 (May 29, 2015)

Axiom+ are fine with 8215, 8125G, and D97. The newer axiom+ are real nice, and I haven't felt any limbs less than $300 that felt noticeably better. (I have shot a limbs including top offerings from W&W, Fivics, MK, Samick, SF, Border, etc. We have some people in my local club that love buying and trying new limbs.) 

While you may want to upgrade the riser eventually, it's a lot of riser for the money and I would invest in other things first. I own a horizon and a fantom, but have shot a very wide variety of risers at my local club, and if it feels good in your and and has adjustment options, you are fine for a while. (As long as the riser doesn't have any other issues)

What I would spend money on:
1. A better string! (I have shot 8125, 8125G, 8190 and D97 with axioms with no issue, current rig is 18 strand 8125 for indoor and 16 strand 8125G for outdoor)
2. Arrows, really take your pick here but probably the most noticeable upgrade. I highly recommend platinum plus aluminum for indoor distances, for outdoor could do VAP, CX Medallion XR or Pro, Easton ACC or C1 lines. I know plenty of people that use skinny outdoor arrows for both indoor and outdoor distances.
3. Buy some Hoyt Super Rests. $2.50 from lancaster, even cheaper on alternatives. It is a cheap rest you still see the pros still using at the olympics and one less thing to worry about tuning.
4. Bow Square: Buy one, you need this to tune, they have some on amazon prime for as cheap as $9.
5. Plunger: Needed to tune. The X-Spot is probably fine. If want to spend less, the Shibuya Dx works great for the $25-35 it costs, and if you are only using one set or arrows / limbs / string, tune it and leave it for a while.

Seriously, get these items first and see how that improves your groups, then decide if you need to make any other changes.

A few notes for later on:
Limbs: Until you have a final OTF weight, do not buy pricey limbs because will will probably end up replacing them. Once you have a final OTF, then look for something to last a while to match your needs.
Limbs 2: Visit a club / event / JOAD to try as many limbs as possible. Often you won't get to shoot someone else's bow, but many will let you draw it to get a feel for the limbs without firing. Try as many as you can before spending $$$.
Sight Pin: If you need another anyway, look at the shibuya from Lancaster. It is a *metal* aperture with removable red pin. This lets you try both pin and open ring configurations with metal durability for about $13. If you want a fancier open ring there is a ongoing FITA thread here where you can get one.
Fletchings: Feathers for indoor distances, many options for outdoor.
Tab: Once again it helps to ask and try around. As said before something with a cordovan face, finger spacer, and ledge option would be ideal. (AAE, BMA, W&W, etc)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

wowsee said:


> In response to ThomVis: it's no problem keeping everything in red on a FITA 40cm @ 18m, I've been able to that for a while. What bothers me is consistency at the greater distances. The light poundage and lack of a plunger is really taking its toll at 50m.
> 
> I'd love to go to a store and try out tabs and arrows. Sadly not many have the stock. I live in San Jose, so I may be able to try out some arrows at the local compound shop down in gilroy. For anything else, I'll have to make the trip up to sf and find a place that lets me demo. StBullard, it'd be pretty helpful if you had any info on the shops up there, if not I'll just have to read reviews and get everything off lancaster.
> 
> ...


Come see me in Palo Alto. NO charge for coaching. How about that? I can build you a proper bowstring, again NO charge. You have to buy a plunger first, before you see me. KEEP YOUR RISER. KEEP your LIMBS. I will show you HOW far you can go, with your EXISTING limbs and your EXISTING riser. The STRING is important. The TAB is important. The PLUNGER is important. The ARROWS are REALLY REALLY important.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> w -
> 
> What you didn't mention were your scores.
> Your bow is fine and will out shoot you for some time.
> ...


Agree 100% with Viper1. Come see me in Palo Alto, and I have a LOT of aluminum arrows for you to TEST drive. We can check how your CURRENT arrows work, AFTER I build you a proper custom recurve string. Dacron = REALLY bad.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

wowsee said:


> In response to ThomVis: it's no problem keeping everything in red on a FITA 40cm @ 18m, I've been able to that for a while. What bothers me is consistency at the greater distances. The light poundage and lack of a plunger is really taking its toll at 50m.
> 
> I'd love to go to a store and try out tabs and arrows. Sadly not many have the stock. I live in San Jose, so I may be able to try out some arrows at the local compound shop down in gilroy. For anything else, I'll have to make the trip up to sf and find a place that lets me demo. StBullard, it'd be pretty helpful if you had any info on the shops up there, if not I'll just have to read reviews and get everything off lancaster.
> 
> ...


I have a Bernardini Luxor riser. This is a $700 riser. YOu can try my Luxor riser, and I am very sure you will see NO difference in your scores.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Sight Pin: I'd go with the AAE gold aiming aperture. I am not sure that the fiberoptic filament on the Shibuya has a housing to protect it, which the AAE does. Someone else can speak to that. Or go to classifieds and go under the thread "fita style site ring" 

Shibuya DX plunger for sure.

1+ on Hoyt super rests.

and take Nuts&bolts up on his/her offer. A free string and free coaching is, well, priceless! Plus the arrow thing.


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## jerectar (Oct 13, 2015)

I've had only wood/glass glass/glass limbs until I got my winex, so I know how far these cheap limbs can get you (quite far indeed). They offer excellent value for money, But having tried high-mid range SF and Kaya limbs, I'd say that you can get a limb that is significantly better than the $70 basic limbs, for around $300 (brand news). My personal experience was of a more consistent load during the draw (That's how it felt), and it made me enjoy practicing more.


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## ytran16 (Jan 17, 2015)

Limbs: Sf axiom+ are perfectly good entry level limbs that I started out with. I own a pair of W&W SF Premium Carbon+ that I upgraded to after my axioms. I think it's a good upgrade after axioms, but I personally wouldn't make the 10# jump. 

Arrows: If you want to shoot outdoor 60m, I'd go for carbon arrows. VAPs are a good choice. Haven't tried kurly vanes yet. I've shot CX Medallion XRs with bohning x vanes and spin wings. I like spin wings personally, but it takes more maintenance and replacement shooting at hay bales Alternatively I've seen a friend's eli-vanes to be pretty durable.

String: Most people in our club uses 8125G string and that's what I'd recommend.

Plunger: Shibuya DX plunger would be my choice. Never had an issue with mine

Rests: Hoyt super rests. Cheap, easy, works like a charm. I always keep a few extra just for backup.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

For me, as a 15yo, the things that have helped me the most in terms of score are
Finger tab--fivics saker 1
Beiter small sight pin with diamond insert
I can tell you that the velocity riser is a highly advanced riser. An extremely underrated riser is the fivics srv, the dampening and shot feel is superb. Limbs, the kap winstorm 2s are goid, especially since you will probably move up in poundage. Plunger, shibuya dx.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

And btw, i shoot 32# winstorm 2s. Im making it to 90meters.


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Reading the rest of the more experienced staff and I'd say their advice is awesome!

In order of preference:
- regularly attending a club that has a generous offer of a coach that will help you, even occasionally, and free. I admit I'm a big spender for 3 sets of olympic gear but it was all for nothing until my club's coaches helped all 3 of us. Even their attention to detail and a small adjustment (be very flexible to their suggestions) per advise help a lot! Just 3 weeks ago a small adjustment of draw led to my current average of 27/30 per end indoor 40cm/18m, up from 25.5/30 for my first nats 3 mths ago.
- Plunger man. Even the cheap infinitec nexus plunger @ $22.50 is good enough. I use that for my indoor but for outdoor for $1.69 more the shibuya dx is small rock solid and reliable. Alt prices.
- If you really can't do the plunger, Hoyt super rest. Having a fixed piece of plastic acting as a plunger is better than nothing. This is something I left on my eldest son recurve when he went barebow on me and refused anything on his bow (except limb and riser and string), and kept all his arrows within the blue zone at 50m. Once he changed arrows for poundage ramp though a button was needed else a lot of offset aiming was needed
- String man. String. I'd say take any offer for strings being made, else 8125G's. Too bad the 8125's from Kaya @ Alt are not under the same 30% discounts as per their limbs

The rest I'd say arrows, finger tab, sights (I bought a shibuya carbon @ 1/2 price cuz it was missing bits and pieces on the sight block and I replaced with 20 UK pounds of parts from Aardvark, so keep hunting online), riser.....as we go down the list it has decreasing impact to overall tuning. My club's legend is an old guy from the past with equipment equivalently cheap as yours this day and scoring 1310 at a nationals, and he felt guilty about using "cheap ****" and upgraded his riser only, and got 1316 at the next. Thus I see the necessityto work on the parts that are the most malleable to the least: archer all the way down to equipment (e.g. quiver would be having one of the least impact to your accuracy). Good luck man, cuz I think $650 can go quite a way to small improvements to what you have to achieve more reliable shots at long distance.

Hope I'm talking nonsense.


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## wowsee (Aug 18, 2015)

Wow! Didn't expect so many replies! I had to kinda make a list that turned into a page-long document trying to compile notes of everyone's opinions. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here it goes:

*Sighting Aperture:* I need one since mine is bent out of shape. I should go for a shibuya, beiter, or one made from a forum member. The shibuya one seems to be popular among you guys.
Strings: These are what I definitely need seeing as dacron is apparently the devil. The popular decision seems to be split between 8125G or D97. Both should be 14 strand if I go with them, but I will need better limbs if I go 8125G (according to ThomVis, nothing wood core). Don't know how I feel about that, most of you seem to think that 8125G will be safe on any limbs. Could anyone give me a definite answer for what's better? 8125G, 8125, or D97? Also what strand count, some have suggested numbers other than 14.
*Limbs:* I should upgrade these since I need higher poundage. The 10# jump is risky but not the biggest issue since I have that under control with workouts. Most of you guys are advocating just cheap good quality wood stuff. I'd go for the axiom, but that only goes up to 36#. The common argument seems to be that I should only get good limbs if I'm settling on a final poundage. But to be honest 40# will probably be final for me. It covers all the distances I need. Most of the JOAD archers at my range go with 40#'s. There are some advocates for the cheap carbon ones, as they're more comfortable to shoot overall. Still confused on this matter, I'm leaning currently towards the cheap SF or Fivics Carbon limbs. I simply can't believe there's as much of a performance gap as Viper1 claims. If all limbs under 500$ are the same, why do many defend the quality of cheaper carbon limbs? I get that all wood limbs would feel generally the same, but I can't buy the "everything under 500$ is practically the same" argument, doesn't make sense to me. If anyone could explain it to me, that'd be great!
I don't know about asking JOAD archers to test out limbs. Most of the ones I know are very rightfully protective of their equipment, the stuff's expensive! I'd prefer to just get a straight answer for what I should get. 
*Arrows:* Yeah this one is as necessary as new limbs but disputed. I should have mentioned this earlier, but around 99% of my practice is outdoors, without much access to indoor facilities ever. I feel like a specific set of indoor arrows would be wasted on me. I want to start competing with indoor tournaments, as they're a bit easier, but I still can't justify spending so much on a set of indoor specific arrows if I'll rarely use them. 
Now as for the outdoor arrow recommendation, I see you guys mainly looking at VAP, CX Medallion XR/Pro, or Easton ACC. Most seem to be leaning to the Medallion XR's. Looking at prices it's expensive to cheap as follows: Medallion Pro, Easton ACC, VAP1, Medallion XR. Medallion XR's are dirt cheap right now, something that's definitely appealing. However, upon looking at the specs I'm questioning a few things. For the medallion series and ACC's, flight profile isn't that impressive. Construction seems superior, especially in the case of the ACC's, but all of them have diameters upwards of 0.23". As a reference, this is extremely similar to the current Super clubs I own. So not exactly "ultra small diameter". The VAP's boast great reviews, backed technology, acceptable straightness tolerance and a 0.166" ultra small diameter. It seems to me that the value would be superior. Or is there something I'm not getting here? 
*Plunger:* All of you seem to agree that I absolutely need one. I think I'll spluge the extra 10 bucks and get the X-spot over shibuya. I trust decut's quality and the micro adjustments seem useful.
*Finger tab:* I'm stuck between the AAE elite, fivics saker, KSL gold, and Wiawis EZ. I've been looking at the Wiawis EZ for quite a while now, and it looks really impressive. I especially like the pinky rest, it seems set up to allow for the most consistent grip. Since this is one of my only interfaces with the bow, would it be worth it to splurge here?
*Rest of stabilizer:* Some of you think I should go for this, others not. I honestly can't believe the "don't drop your bow argument". I'd think there's a reason all the best archers do it. It removes any possibility of your bow moving after release, affecting arrow flight. The friend who told me I need the rest of the setup to achieve a proper release is someone who's been doing archery for quite a while, and has been on the Junior Dream Team, so I don't think I can really just dismiss him as a "noob". At this point it means I'm looking at how to improve the setup. I could spend about $100 to finish the most basic fivics full setup (as I already have the long stab), or I could go for Decut's copy of the HMC, a value package for 130 bucks for the whole thing. As many have suggested, it's probably better to splurge a little to get stuff that'll last a long time, and I see the Decut setup lasting way longer than the full Fivics LVT. I will also be going with Viper1's suggestion to buy plenty of cheap extra weights, this should help in the long run. 
*Bow square:* I'll go for whatever's reasonably priced, but I will definitely get one. Many have recommended the Win&win, but I can't imagine others would be so different. Even brands like cartel would pay attention to the proper measurements. Is it really worth it to get the Win&win just for brand recognition?
*Vanes:* Just like most of you have suggested, I will definitely go with some XS wings. I'll buy a second package when the extras in the first run out.
*Bow Stand:* Some have recommended I DIY this. But after thinking about it, I've deemed it pretty important. I might as well get one and never look back. DIY for something like this is a hassle when the stand I build will probably break.
*Rest:* Everyone says the hoyt, so I will go with the hoyt. To be honest, I really think the concept of some of the "free-flyte" rests are cool, but they may just be BS gimmicks.
*Riser:* This one is complex. With the exception of maybe one or two, you guys all think the cartel is adequate. I might take a few of you up on your offers to try stuff out and see, but I guess I'll have to drop the riser in the end because they're too expensive. I'd like to get these ones that are on sale, but the fact of the matter is it probably wouldn't make much of a difference. When I was looking around, I was mainly dissatisfied with my cartel's lack of features. It's a vacuum die-casted hunk of metal at best. Just a level up from the literal hunk of metal, the Axiom. My thoughts were more along the lines of those mentioned by styks n stryngs. The intermediate risers include interesting benefits. The velocity has increased dampening from the carbon. The SRV and other fivics intermediates have spring dampening and advanced limb-adjustment systems. Most importantly, geometry and design. The other risers have designs that allow for a more efficient conversion of static energy stored in the limbs to the kinetic energy that moves the arrow, making for faster speeds at lower weights. I quite like that, as the riser might be one of the reasons I can't hit the 60m with a 30#. Plus many are designed to be more comfortable to shoot and easier to draw, as they change center of balance on the grip. Examples include the Winex, a riser that features a build to remove lateral twisting, making for a more stable draw, and holding. Why would these benefits be wasted on me, is what I'm a bit confused about. Or is it just that they're outweighed by the huge benefits of other parts I could buy?

To reply to a few select messages:
*Responding to those who think I just can't shoot the 60m because of my form, or those who say they're easily able to do it:* it's not that way at all. I think we can all agree upon the fact we are all different as archers. Even if you are able to shoot the 70m with a 30#, I may not be able to simply due to physiological differences. an example being a shorter draw length. I do focus on my form, my point is that it's not enough to group 60 with equipment. I will literally risk killing myself if I shoot it right now because of how low my sight must drop to aim at the target. Very simply: I ain't messing with shards of broken carbon in my face.
*To those who want me to prioritize coaching: *again, it's really not that simple. This is why I discussed it in my original post. The money isn't an issue with coaching, it's commitment. I'd love a coach but only a real life one seems worth the money. Most around my area that are any good charge $100 an hour. I usually fix most bad habits by asking friends with coaches to look at my form. Except for physiological limitations, I'm in the clear right now. I also have access to advice from coaches at my local range. They're nice and will give one or two pointers while I'm shooting. If it's an educated eye, I already have one in the form of friends.
*In response to making my own string:* I don't know if it'll be worth it. I'd love my own stringmaker, but a custom string would be too expensive and buying everything individually costs too much time and effort when I could buy a premade string. The only kids I've ever met who have used custom/self-made strings are in the top 10 nationally ranked joad archers, I'm not quite there yet... I'm sure there are others, but I don't think making strings right now would be an efficient use of money or time.
*Responding to wags02's comment:* you're confusing me a bit here. Should I keep the riser or jump at a good deal? I found the SF velocity, pretty much an inno copy 28% off at 430$ from its previous 600$. Should I jump at it? Or wait for an even better deal on a top-end riser in the future?
*Responding to nuts&bolts:* sounds fantastic! Pm me your number and I'll text/call as soon as I know when I can come.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

I forgot to add, my friend that shoots the srv with fivics carbon limbs, is consistently outshot by my friend who shoots the cartel with sf limbs.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

wowsee said:


> The 10# jump is risky but not the biggest issue since I have that under control with workouts.


10# is huge in archery. It's not only power, it's also the control over that power. A couple of pounds jump you probably can handle, but anything more and you run the risk your form falls apart. 



wowsee said:


> I especially like the pinky rest, it seems set up to allow for the most consistent grip.


Fivics Saker has pinky rest, and shelf can be adjusted to serve as thumbrest on the 1&2.



wowsee said:


> *Bow square:*Many have recommended the Win&win, but I can't imagine others would be so different. Even brands like cartel would pay attention to the proper measurements. Is it really worth it to get the Win&win just for brand recognition?


W&W/SF one is the only one I know off that has different measures for "clip on the string" and "measure from grip" mode, see >pic<. But in the end it's not important which one you get, as long as you use the same one each time.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

w - 

OK - you want new toys. That's what I'm hearing, and ultimately it's going to have to be your call. Will it make a difference, possibly, if you understand the placebo effect. 

To you questions:
A few years ago a young lady I was training was do well at 70M with a 28# pair of $100 limb and a 25" draw length (ACE arrows). 
As long as a plunger doesn't bind, they all do the same thing. 
You new, the AAE Elite tab really is the standard. The fancier ones can do you more harm than good (think crutch). 
Dacron isn't the "devil". Unless you're tuning, the odds are you won't notice the difference at 20 yards (I don't, and yes I've tested it). However, you will be getting better performance with a newer material, and there's no reason to give that up. If you have one bow, the odds are making your own strings may not be worth while. 
A bow square is a bow square and you can use a freakin' ruler if you want. You're taking relative measurements, not absolute ones. 
Limbs - I've also tested most of the limbs being discussed. Performance was usually within experimental error and "feel" is a personal call. For example, the SP Carbon Plus limbs have the mushiest feel, about on par with the Hoyts. Some people like that, I don't. 
I discussed the riser thing above.

Now for the big problem - your commitment. Sorry. $100/hour is obscene at your level, maybe any level. Look harder. There are guys like Alan (and myself) who don't charge at all, but your expected to put the time and thought in. 

So it's your call. 

Viper1 out.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

- get a new string, good quality, 8125g class or better
- get a plunger
- get better arrows
- download Coaches Eye or Technique or Edufil to your phone and have someone video your form from all angles on a regular basis. You can analyze in slow motion. Compare to youtube videos of the studs shooting in world cup events.

If you have to (psychologically) get a new riser, you can't find a better performer for the money than spending $250 or less on the SF Axiom Forged Plus.

Don't jump all the way up from 30 to 40lb limbs in one gulp - doing that, plus no coaching eyes on you, is a recipe for backed in bad habits/form that could last a lifetime


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## Wags02 (Jul 24, 2015)

Sorry if I confused you a little.

Your choice in riser is what I started out with as did my son. We have been through a lot of equipment in the last 2 years. Cartel phantom, Hoyt formula excel, Hoyt nexus,Win&win CXT. Limbs-axiom +, formula 720's, SF carbon foam, win & win ex powers and wia-wis wood cores. I don't want to even begin to think of the 1,000 of dollars spent but we are having fun. 

What I was trying to say to you is be patient and buy some of the small bits and pieces that will make a noticeable difference in your shooting(string,arrows,plunger,tab). I would not jump in on the SF velocity riser right now. I've never seen one in person at a shoot anywhere Ive been. My recommendation if you want a new riser(I understand everyone wants new toys) would be a SF forged + (they come with a rest and plunger but the rest is that great so I would use the Hoyt rest) or continue to watch the classified ads and find a nice used top end ilf riser. 

With a new string and arrows your current rig is very adequate for where you are in your progression. And you will easily reach out to 70 meters. I shot 34# axiom+ limbs(otf) on both a cartel and nexus riser with Cx medallion arrows and was easily reaching 70 meters.


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## jerectar (Oct 13, 2015)

please don't make a 10# jump in limb poundage. I went from 30# (SF premium+) full out and went through the bolt positions until I got my 34# (SF fiber foam) and started with them full out again. Now I'm with my 38# (winex) on nominal. Working your way up gradually while preserving form is highly recommended.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

You know, often it is not how much or how "good" your equipment is. It's how you use it.

Like the part about your stabilizers.

There's actually a method to determine which stabilizers suit you. A couple of guys here have used it. If you understand the formula, you probably won't have to ask around for different opinions on different stabilizers. You'd be asking about specs instead, and be independent in the process of choosing your stabilizers.

I recall a thread where someone solicited opinions on which risers are good. There were many who responded.

When I asked which riser was terrible, no one could come up with one. Turns out that every riser has its characteristics, depending on your technique and body type, one man's food could be another man's poison.

Plungers mostly work the same. It takes a really crappy plunger to make a difference.

Carbon limbs are preferred due to the light weight to tensile strength/young's modulus(elastic modulus) giving the ultimate advantage(at this time) in terms of speed over other materials. The draw characteristics seldom differ between wood and foam, although some here claim that they prefer wood. For that, we let the draw force curve speak for itself. Note that the core thickness is the mechanism for poundage setting, but the limb depends largely on the tensile and compressive forces derived from the outer layers for it to work. To answer your question on speed, simply get two pairs of limbs of a similar model and poundage but different cores, and weigh them. Also, we have an in-house limb maker. See if you could spot him. I'm sure he would be happy to help you see through my mambo-jumbo ;-)

It would be nice if your limbs were straight, that would make setting the limbs that much more straightforward. If your limbs are not straight, all is not lost. There is a setting where limb straightness is not a must, and it imparts superior lateral stability over much more expensive bows that are set the "conventional way".

What I'm really trying to say is this: Opinions and art go hand in hand. Opinions are plentiful here. Turning art into a science, that's where the fun really is. Once you understand the science behind all the equipment, you'll begin to see that a lot of equipment out there really work, only if you understand how.

OK, I'm gonna take a nap. Gonna catch a flight to Korea in a couple of hours. See you all when I reach Suwon. I'll take some pictures.


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> Like the part about your stabilizers.
> 
> There's actually a method to determine which stabilizers suit you. A couple of guys here have used it. If you understand the formula, you probably won't have to ask around for different opinions on different stabilizers. You'd be asking about specs instead, and be independent in the process of choosing your stabilizers.


Where can I read more about this? Thank you.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> OK, I'm gonna take a nap. Gonna catch a flight to Korea in a couple of hours. See you all when I reach Suwon. I'll take some pictures.


lol, say hi to my family for me!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

styks n stryngs said:


> lol, say hi to my family for me!


If I know where to find them!


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## wowsee (Aug 18, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> You new, the AAE Elite tab really is the standard. The fancier ones can do you more harm than good (think crutch).
> Viper1 out.


I don't really understand what you're saying here. How would they act as a crutch? It doesn't make sense. Looking at a recurve release, consistency concerning the tab is mainly in the way you grip it. If you grip it differently each time, you have inconsistencies that can take you from 9's and 10's to 4's and 5's. The tabs I'm mentioning, specifically the wiawis EZ, are designed with reference points and mechanics, making it easy for you to maintain a consistent grip and adjust it to fit your hand. Most of the Joad archers I discuss form with agree on this point. You want to have as consistent of a grip as possible, and reference points establish that. The Wiawis EZ is pretty much the AAE Elite, just with elements that you can adjust to fit your hand perfectly.



Viper1 said:


> Now for the big problem - your commitment. Sorry. $100/hour is obscene at your level, maybe any level. Look harder. There are guys like Alan (and myself) who don't charge at all, but your expected to put the time and thought in.


I think I didn't state this properly, my fault. The consistency issue has more to do with price and transportation. I can't currently drive. As my parents are extremely unsupportive of archery as a sport, the most they will agree to is driving me once a week to manage the archery club I started at my school. Getting them to pay for lessons over a couple years is definitely out of the question. Then there's the fact my schedule is always changing as a high school junior. Events are always popping up, meaning I'd need a coach that could work on my schedule, not one that makes me work on theirs. Of course, this notion is completely and utterly ridiculous. I don't want to waste anyone's time, so the best option for me seems to be learning through video trainers and fellow JOAD archers when come in contact with them.



lksseven said:


> - get a new string, good quality, 8125g class or better
> - get a plunger
> - get better arrows
> - download Coaches Eye or Technique or Edufil to your phone and have someone video your form from all angles on a regular basis. You can analyze in slow motion. Compare to youtube videos of the studs shooting in world cup events.
> ...


That's definitely a great idea, the slow motion analysis works well for tennis, I'm sure I can apply it to archery. A lot of people are saying not to make the jump. I do weight training 3 times a week as well as around 5 hours a week of bow KSL exercises on a 38# takedown. I understand large jumps can mess me up, I've done it before when I was 12 and didn't know any better. This time around however, I should have the training. 30# right now feels like a rubber band to me, I know I can bring the weight up more. Maybe I'll just go up to 36/38# if you guys still think it'll really be a problem. I just don't want to spend too much on limbs, but I want a good energy conversion. This leads me to carbon, a material that guarantees faster arrow speeds. I don't want to buy a 36# carbon limb and then a 40# a month or so later.



Wags02 said:


> Sorry if I confused you a little.
> 
> Your choice in riser is what I started out with as did my son. We have been through a lot of equipment in the last 2 years. Cartel phantom, Hoyt formula excel, Hoyt nexus,Win&win CXT. Limbs-axiom +, formula 720's, SF carbon foam, win & win ex powers and wia-wis wood cores. I don't want to even begin to think of the 1,000 of dollars spent but we are having fun.
> 
> ...


Yeah my problem right now is that, as it stands, my sight aperture is dangerously close to my arrow at 60m. I've been warned by friends and coaches alike to avoid shooting the 60 with this setup, unless I enjoy carbon splinters through my face and chest. I would love the forged, I know many a great JOAD archer who started out with one. But for now I guess I'll follow your advice and wait until a good used deal pops up and my level is a bit higher.



theminoritydude said:


> Like the part about your stabilizers.
> 
> There's actually a method to determine which stabilizers suit you. A couple of guys here have used it. If you understand the formula, you probably won't have to ask around for different opinions on different stabilizers. You'd be asking about specs instead, and be independent in the process of choosing your stabilizers.


I've heard plenty about this, but 90% of the plenty being that it's one of the greatest myths of target archery. In such a complex sport, you can relate how the average archer selects limb length, but figuring out how to select stabilizers using a formula seems extremely difficult. There are just so many factors at play, it can't be summed up in a single equation. We'd need a kinesiology paper, explaining how riser length is selected to be the most biomechanically efficient. I'm not really seeing any of that in the future, so I think I'll stay away from the unbacked claims and rely on guesswork instead.



theminoritydude said:


> Carbon limbs are preferred due to the light weight to tensile strength/young's modulus(elastic modulus) giving the ultimate advantage(at this time) in terms of speed over other materials. The draw characteristics seldom differ between wood and foam, although some here claim that they prefer wood. For that, we let the draw force curve speak for itself. Note that the core thickness is the mechanism for poundage setting, but the limb depends largely on the tensile and compressive forces derived from the outer layers for it to work. To answer your question on speed, simply get two pairs of limbs of a similar model and poundage but different cores, and weigh them. Also, we have an in-house limb maker. See if you could spot him. I'm sure he would be happy to help you see through my mambo-jumbo ;-)


Yeah I need high speeds, hence why I am looking to carbon. No clue what you're talking about with the in-house limb maker. Either I'm just an idiot or new here and don't know of such a person. Could you enlighten me on this situation?


Could anyone reply to my arrow question? Right now I'm really looking towards the thin profiled VAP1's but please feel free to prove me wrong.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

wowsee said:


> That's definitely a great idea, the slow motion analysis works well for tennis, I'm sure I can apply it to archery. A lot of people are saying not to make the jump. I do weight training 3 times a week as well as around 5 hours a week of bow KSL exercises on a 38# takedown. I understand large jumps can mess me up, I've done it before when I was 12 and didn't know any better. This time around however, I should have the training. 30# right now feels like a rubber band to me, I know I can bring the weight up more. Maybe I'll just go up to 36/38# if you guys still think it'll really be a problem. I just don't want to spend too much on limbs, but I want a good energy conversion. This leads me to carbon, a material that guarantees faster arrow speeds. I don't want to buy a 36# carbon limb and then a 40# a month or so later.


If you can't get off the string with close to the precision and smoothness exhibited by the archers in this video, then you're very likely overbowed. Let that be your guide for finding the best draw weight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgX7wBftbhE


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

This kid knows more about archery than most of you. But still asking for opinions.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

stick monkey said:


> This kid knows more about archery than most of you. But still asking for opinions.


As it was for me, wanting to do something _so_ badly but not being able to leads to reading up and learning as much about it as possible. That actually just gave me an idea, get USA Archery's book and study it closely. post vids of your form and the community will be able to help you. If you show your parents that you are commited, I think that they will support you a little more. That's how it was for me, and my dad's actually a level 2 coach now.
Also, on your birthday/christmas, ask for money instead of archer related gifts. You'll know better than them on what to buy, so do it yourself.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/007297.8.10243994402419978155/SFFP25
http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/007297.12.8578579110919978155/SFPRCL
http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/007297.16.8233114243819978155/SHIBBUT
I wouldn't upgrade stabs until you are ready for the $100 investment. However, the Soul Maker is the rebranded kaya soul originally used by oh jin hyek to shook 13000 plus points.
http://alternativess.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/007297.20.11238910498719978155/KAYSOULL


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Are you currently shooting an under chin anchor?
You MAY find that moving to a faster string such as 8125 or 8190 will help you with the sightmarks, if however you are still struggling with them then going to a lightweight carbon arrow such as the VAP will get you those last few meters to hit 70m. Of course there also isn't anything wrong with shooting at the flag.

-Grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

w - 

Regarding the tab, the more the tab, or any piece of equipment, does "for" you, the less you will learn to do correctly on your own. That's the "crutch" part, and it's more prevalent with new/beginning shooters. 
YOU learning how to do it right, is what gives you consistency and confidence. The add ons come later. 
It's an old concept, but archery is an old sport.

Regarding the commitment, "getting to a range", sorry,no sympathy there. When I was in my early teens (before I could drive), I took a 45 minute bus ride each way to the range and back, 2 - 3 times a week. Even now, that I'm retired, the closest range is a 45 minute drive, worse with traffic. So it really is a commitment thing and yes, you may have to rearrange YOUR schedule. 

Can you do it own your own, sure, but the odds are pretty high against it. BTW - I teach a HS archery class, freshmen to seniors. With proper training, at least 1/2 of them are out shooting "experienced" shooters in short order, like less than a semester. 

Most people here are giving you decent advise on equipment. 
The reality is that 90% just isn't going to matter one bit at your level. 
How you proceed is your call, or basically, how bad do you want it? 

Viper1 out.


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## Shoot_first (Oct 1, 2015)

As far as the X-Spot Deluxe plunger, yes it's a nice Beiter clone, but you can buy it for $20.99 shipped, direct from the Decut(the manufacturer)store on Ebay. The sight is nice too, but you should get their "TWANT" upgraded Aperature. For $12.99 shipped it's a nice Sight Aperature


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> OK, I'm gonna take a nap. Gonna catch a flight to Korea in a couple of hours. See you all when I reach Suwon. I'll take some pictures.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)




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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)




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## douglaswei888 (Nov 17, 2015)

if you are a begginer,you do not need to cost so much money to look for high quality and expensive products.at ebay you will be able to get everything you want.


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