# Gap shooting or Instinctive



## steve65 (Nov 17, 2006)

maine guide said:


> I'm learing to shoot a long bow in the instinctive style, I'm doing very well out to 10 yard , but havind trouble at 15 or 20. My question is ? Is gap shooting easier to learn and more effective at longer shoots? One of my reasons for going traditional was the fact that there were no sights . Just looking for input...
> Tony


Hi Tony,

I've got a great book at home on shooting instinctive... At the moment I don't remember the title but will get it and pass it on. Its a short book and very easy reading. I give it a :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: :darkbeer: out of 5...

Take care


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

maine guide,

In most cases you will become more accurate and more consistant with a conscious aiming techinique.

The main reason being...is you are consciously aware of whatever it is you are referencing, which in most cases is the arrow, and where it relates to the target....so....if you hit high right...than you just move your reference point lower and to the left of where you held it before.

Where as with Instinctive aiming there is no conscious reference point and the subconscious basically has to figure it out which can take longer to zone in on the target.

The thing that beginners sometimes don't understand is that Gap shooting can become Instinctive over time.

What happens is the archer has learned his gap so well that he no longer has to think about it and can let the subconscious aim through the many hours of repetition and practice the archer has put into it.

Some people pick it up quicker than others but I HIGHLY recommend you learn to gap shoot if you want to be accurate at longer distances.

Ray


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

this is only my advice which comes from my experience:

start with gap shooting. pick one target to shoot at, and even if you have to make marks to put the tip of your arrow on it is okay. shoot that way- ALOT! after a few weeks (maybe even days if you really stick to it) you can constitenly hit the target this way... but more than probabaly just that target. after a good bit of shooting that way try shooting instinct. yopur muscles will remember hoe to hit the target from your shooting, and even if you move your form (i used to draw to my ear, now to my jaw) you will still hit- everywhere. gap shooting creates a need for distance gauging, so it is good for predetermioned target shooting. after soem practice instinctive you can sed an arrow wherever you want it to go. have fun!


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

My best shots, especially game shots are the ones that just happen. I've always shot instinctive but have tried gap shooting and I just couldn't do it. I think at some level I subconciously gap shoot as the arrow is in my periphreal(sp) vision but I don't focus on it in relationship to the target. Gap shooting requires aiming which requires time which just seems to screw up my shots. I know others who do it very effectively though. I think it's worth a try for a new archer.


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## steve65 (Nov 17, 2006)

*Book on Instinctive Shooting*

http://www.amazon.com/Instinctive-Archery-Insights-Jay-Kidwell/dp/0963971824

Heres the book I was talking about. Good stuff along with the great advice in this thread and you'll be knocking the hair off a gnat's ***** in no time... :darkbeer: :wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan,

You said - "...if you have to make marks to put the tip of your arrow on it is okay."

Just for clarification...if an archer does that...he no longer is Gap shooting...they are than using Point of Aim.

All aiming methods need to estimate yardage. It's just that some people estimate yardage through the subconscious (Instinctively) while others consciously calculate it.

It's the same thing with aiming. EVERYONE AIMS TO SOME DEGREE OR ANOTHER. It's just that some people subconsciously aim (Instinctive) while others consciously aim (Gap, Point of Aim, String Walking, Face Walking, Sights).

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I second the book that Steve suggested. It's a pretty good one.

Ray


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

Yes, that is a good book. I suggested that in another thread just the other day.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Black Wolf,



> Just for clarification...if an archer does that...he no longer is Gap shooting...they are than using Point of Aim.


 POA *IS* Gap Shooting. 

Dwayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

DwayneR,

The first clue that it's not Gap Shooting is that it has it's own name.

Each aiming style has been given a seperate name to help describe exactly what is involved with that particular aiming techinique.

Instinctive aiming is no more Gap Shooting than POA is Gap Shooting..even though they share similarities.

Yes, you can learn what your gap is for each distance by using Point of Aim...but it's NOT GAP Shooting.

Gap Shooting is where the archer focus on the target and is aware of the gap within his sight picture and makes adjustments accordingly. They do not focus on puting their arrow tip on any specific spot.

Point of Aim is where the archer specifically places their arrow tip on a mark or a spot that is a predetermined point that will cause the archer to hit their target.

If you want to say that there can be a gap between the arrow point and the target while using POA...than I agree...but if you are going to say they are the same thing I still disagree.

Ray


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Ray,



> If you want to say that there can be a gap between the arrow point and the target while using POA...than I agree...but if you are going to say they are the same thing I still disagree.


 I guess we will have to respectfully disagree with each other. 

Gap or POA is the same... Whether you have "zero" inches of Gap, or 5 feet of gap positive or negative. Assigning something a name IMHO does not designate that it is not the same.

Dwayne


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

i think it would be safe to say that all you have to do is get out there and practice, right?


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

> In most cases you will become more accurate and more consistant with a conscious aiming techinique.


 This is very true. But pay attention to what the Wolf is saying here. 
Instinctive shooting can work better than any other method of practice. However, it requires dedication. 
If you wish to be a competitor, then do what the top people in the class of your longbow do. 
If you wish for more from your archery practice, then consider instinctive shooting as a journey, rather than another complimentary piece of equipment or tool. 
If you aren't ready to get up every morning and shoot your bow (no matter the weather, hangover, number of "guests", or irons in the fire.), then go with gap shooting. 
Gap shooting will serve you better if you have a more casual shooting style.


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

kegan said:


> i think it would be safe to say that all you have to do is get out there and practice, right?


 Yes. As long as your practice is focused on technique that you are trying to master. 
_Just practicing_ is a great way to waste time.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

DwayneR,

I really don't want to get in a pissing match with you. I get into plenty enough of them as it is 

Do you think there is ANY difference between Gap Shooting and Point of Aim?

I'll just tell you what I've studied and researched and we can than choose to disagree...if in fact we still do 

When using point of Aim, an archer's focus is NOT on the bullseye. The focus is on the predetermined mark or marker that the arrow tip is placed on at the moment of release.

When using Gap Shooting, an archer's focus or concentration is split to some degree or another between the bullseye and the gap created by the arrow tip and the target.

I was taught there is a difference, which indicates they are not EXACTLY the same.

Ray


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

Please explain further how gap shooting goes right into instinctive? I offer the following as another approach and mean no offense, just another point of view.

I think the suggestion for a beginner to gap shoot is a dis-service to him because the whole point of learning instinctive shooting is simplicity like throwing a ball etc. I can't imagine gap shooting doing anything but confusing the issue from the very start. 

If you get some basic instruction and began shooting, looking at the target with both eyes open... trying to really focus on the smallest area you can....after shooting a few scores of arrows you get a feel... almost right away... for where the arrow will hit if you are consistent at all with your shooting style. . . kinda like shooting a BB gun from under your chin rather than aiming. 

I remember when I first began, I was excited because after shooting 30-40 arrows I began to realize that I was starting to be able to judge about where the arrow would hit....and I was starting to get a feel for where my bow needed to be to get the arrow to hit where I wanted. Naturally most of the work was on developing consistent form and learning to really focus on your small spot on the target.

I watched two of my good friends began bowhunting over the past 3-4 years. I remember exactly how they started and how their skills improved. 

I will admit they both took several months to a year before they were pretty solid in their shooting ability...this is mostly referring to a reasonable degree of consistency. Early on they were able to make some good strings of shots on the practice 3D animals , but as time wore on they began to learn how to really focus on the "small spot" and to really concentrate as they shot...and they became much more consistent. As others here have said before, its way better to shoot 10 really focused controlled shots than a hundred quick practice shots. 

Once your muscles have the memory of a decent shooting technique its mostly good concentration that makes you a decent shot and its this ability to really concentrate that allows one to shoot several arrows consistently... like in a 3D shoot. 

To me, trying to aim with the tip of the arrow in some manner is contradictory to shooting instinctive... If you start out looking with a fierce focus at the spot you wish to hit, things will began to come together to some degree pretty soon, just keep on shooting. Be sure to get some experienced folks to give you some pointers now and then so that your basic form is sound and everything else will come.

RB


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rob - 

Ray has a point. The only difference between formal gap and instinctive shooting is the degree in which the consciousness plays into the aiming process. Like it or not, the reality is that the arrow is right infront of your face, meaning it's in your peripherial vision. You'd need a pretty severe case of glaucoma not to see it. The problem most people have when initially "trying" to gap is that taking the focus off the target, even for a split second really messes them up. After a while, a gap shooter gaps on autopilot and makes it look reflexive or "instinctive". We use the word instinctive as as way of describing a style of shooting, it doesn't follow the dictionary definition - there's nothing instinctive about make a shot.

The muscle memory thing, actually called a proprioceptive neural loop, tells you, again on a subconscious level, where your body parts are. It certianly does play into the shot process, and not only with instinctive shooting, but with any aiming/shooting method. IMHO, it's value is more in the way it lets you know whether your form is correct, rather than helping you aim. Simply, for it to help as an aiming method, and to be the primary device, you'd have to use the same bow with the same arrows and shoot at a target at the same distance, with it's center the same height above the ground. That may work for some trick shooting exhibitions, but its not the way most of us normally shoot.

Here's an example a friend of mine uses: You're shooting a 50 yds and lets assume it's a distance you normally don't shoot at, your first shot goes low. You compensate and the next shot is closer, the third shot hits center. How did you "compenstate". There wasn't any muscle memnory for that shot. You had to use something, rather than just raising your bowarm randomly, right? The arrow being a part of the sight picture is what you used (consciuosly or subconsciously) to correct the elevation.

How much of this should you worry about when shooting? NONE. The brain is more than capable of doing it on it's own. These are just the mechanisms behind it. 

Unfortunately, some folks in the "trad" gang would have you believe there's some mystical force that over comes an instinctive shooter when he draws on his target. The reality is that the shot sequence is governed by fairly well researched components. Understanding what they are, can only make you a better archer. It may not have the same alure as being "instinctive", but it does help you to shoot better.

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Dwayne,

I've got to support Ray in his opinion on Gap vs POA. They are different and for the reasons he has stated. I am a POA shooter. I pay little or no attention to the actual place I want to hit, unless it happens to be at my point on distance. I focus my attention on the tip of the arrow and the "point of aim" for that particular distance. Every thing I have read about Gap shooting suggests the primary focus is on the intended target while the peripheral vision sees the arrow and sends a message to the brain about the gap between the arrow and the intended target (Howard Hill's secondary aiming system).

Gap shooting can become second nature (instinctive) with practice. POA never becomes second nature. It remains a specific, conscious and deliberate act for each and every shot.

Dave


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

Viper,

Thanks for the explanation. I really have never thought I payed much attention to the arrow, but I must admit (an arugment that certainly supports your explanation) that when shooting instinctive, I notice difficulty in continuing to shoot when it gets dark, and say we have lights on the target. I have noticed that I just need the entire sight picture to shoot well. It follows that I need the periphial feedback for my "computer" to work right...perhaps its just my personal shortcomming?

However...I pretty much have learned to shoot by just rigidly focusing on the spot I want to hit and if I do my part I seem to hit it very consistently. I have never consiously focused on the tip of the arrow or a "gap", just looked at the target and did my best to mentally focus at as small an area as I could "willing the arrow" to go there. Sometimes, its almost magical but for me the magic seems to be directly related to the quality of my concentration and focus when shooting. Its really easier than throwing a football or baseball because the way you shoot allows for more focused concentration and of course the muscle memory of your shooting form just "feels right"...when you do it right.

I probably have not done a very good job of explaning this, but I tried.

Oh yea, one more thing. I shoot deliberate and although my computer, like most folks's, works ok when "snap shooting" I have learned to draw out the shooting process making my "computer" operate over a longer period of time...say 5 seconds. This certainly takes practice but shooting in a deliberate style sure gives one better releases in the overall scheme of things. I have never been satisfied with the consistency of my release when shooting like Asbel suggests, comming to full draw and immediately releasing the arrow. This probably makes the entire shooting process more complicated for the beginner... 

I really like Kraven's remarks from above:

*If you wish for more from your archery practice, then consider instinctive shooting as a journey, rather than another complimentary piece of equipment or tool. *

RB


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rob - 

I couldn't agree with you more. 

The more you focus (good word, btw), the more you let the trained mechanism subconsciously take care of the details. That's exactly why it works and why a bunch or us here keep harping on form, form and then more form. That's the hard part about archery, after you get that down, the aiming, by what ever means, is easy.

The asbellian thing about releasing, with a touch and go type of release has a few advantages - the most notable is that as the drawing hand/arm remains in motion and the release and follow are almost guaranteed - that's the form thing again. Unfortunately, that's the only real positive thing. The negatives FAR out weigh that singular benefit. They include: releasing before the bow has settled on target (shooting in motion), inconsistent draw lengths, floating or non-existant anchors and can and does lead to creating the reflex of snap shooting. That, IMHO, is the one thing that limits the potential of most new and some veteran "trad" archers. Once snap shooting becomes ingrained, it's a form of target panic, meaning a lot of people with that style of shooting can't come to a full draw and hold until they are actually ready to loose the shot. Unfortunately, the ill effects of that style don't really appear until the archer wishes to either tighten his groups or shoot at longer distances. 

And, yes, of course, shooting an arrow is easier than throwing a baseball, as you have no visual clues to aim the ball. What most folks forget when using that analogy, which really does rely more on the proprioceptive response, is that a good archer would never be satisfied with "baseball" accuracy. 

Looks like you've done your homeework!

Viper1 out.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Wolf, Dave, and Viper,



> I really don't want to get in a pissing match with you. I get into plenty enough of them as it is


 My friend, it is not a pissing match... Not even close.

I will respectfully disagree with you, Viper and Dave. We see it from two different schools of thoughts. Are you correct??? in your mind yes. Am I correct? in my mind yes. But we all have decades of experience and know how to hit the target... *that* is what is important. 



> Do you think there is ANY difference between Gap Shooting and Point of Aim?


 No...They are the same in my books. How much you want to gap, is how much accuracy you want to have. The more Gap you have, the less accurate you are going to be... The only way *anyone* can gap is using the point of the arrow or some other item on the bow or arrow. 

POA is using the point of the Arrow to Gap a certain distance that you know is valid for hitting your intended target. Whether that Gap is 3 inches or 12 inches, or SPOT on with zero inches. It is (in my books) Gap shooting.

Just as I believe there are two different kinds of concentration... "Focusing on the Target (where you are going to hit) and "Gapping" Subconsciously", or Focusing on placing the point of the arrow in a known place, relying on a smaller Gap and ignoring the bigger Gapping that is much harder to mentally measure. IN the latter case, you *know* that the arrow will arc towards its intended point from previous shots.



> I'll just tell you what I've studied and researched and we can than choose to disagree...if in fact we still do


 And I have also studied and researched. It is fine that we disagree. You believe A + B = C... I believe B + A = C... And we both hit the target. Who's right and who's wrong? No one.



> When using point of Aim, an archer's focus is NOT on the bullseye. The focus is on the predetermined mark or marker that the arrow tip is placed on at the moment of release.


 This is not true in my books.... A person can use point of aim and FOCUS on the intended Bullseye. Subconsciously they are IMO actually measuring the distance (whatever that distance is ) via Gaping the arrow tip.



> When using Gap Shooting, an archer's focus or concentration is split to some degree or another between the bullseye and the gap created by the arrow tip and the target.


 Yep! We agree here!


I think where we look at things different, is the "Focus" of the shot.

There are only two ways to focus (that I know of).

1. Focus Consciencely... This is where you focus on the point of the arrow, a mark on your arrow, a mark on your bow, a knuckle, or some other set item, and place it Consciencely on a certain spot down field. That certain spot is usually NOT the Bullseye (but could be)... But your main focus is not hitting the Bullseye, but placing that mark on a certain spot, "knowing" that the arrow will arc into the Bullseye if things are done correctly.

2. Focus SubConsciencely...This is where you focus on the Bullseye, and everything else (peripheral) is done Subconsciously. Subconsciously you Gap your point to a certain place, or position, but your main focus is burning a hole in the bullseye.

Dwayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

RobB,

I couldn't agree with these guys more.

When guiding a beginner...it's important to understand their goals, personality and their abilty to accurately guide them in the direction that might best suit them.

If an archer wants to become a bowhunter who doesn't plan on competiting or doesn't really have a desire to shoot at long distance targets...than instinctive shooting might be the better choice...especially if they have an interest in small game such as rabbits or pheasants. Instinctive aiming has an advantage when there's a need to get a shot off quick without being able to calculate exact distance or the exact gap.

Now if he wants to be competitive a more conscious aiming techinique will provide more consistantcy...especially at longer distances.

It really depends on the individual...but if you're trying to guide them it's good to have a solid foundation or understanding of what exactly it is your teaching them.

Ray


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

DwayneR said:


> There are only two ways to focus (that I know of).
> 
> 1. Focus Consciencely... This is where you focus on the point of the arrow, a mark on your arrow, a mark on your bow, a knuckle, or some other set item, and place it Consciencely on a certain spot down field. That certain spot is usually NOT the Bullseye (but could be)... But your main focus is not hitting the Bullseye, but placing that mark on a certain spot, "knowing" that the arrow will arc into the Bullseye if things are done correctly.
> 
> ...


Dwayne,

Your ownly problem is you lack vocabulary. (smiley face goes here) You're using one term to describe two different things. In the above quote from your post you have accurately described POA vs Gap. You're dividing them in definition but not differentiating them in name, as you should. (stick another smiley face in here)

Dave


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

Viper,

I would hope that your comments and perhaps some of mine and others will offer a small amount of insite into shooting instinctive for beginnners. I think some of your remarks are very good at putting difficult concepts into words for others to understand. I would hope that beginners do not see instinctive shooting as a difficult skill to achieve but see it as a challanging and fun skill to master. . . like a "journey" as mentioned above. 

Black Wolf... I have been mostly commenting on hunting...say shots under 30 yards, more like mostly under 25 yards. You and others here have mentioned the point that it depends on what you plan to do with archery...and that is a valid point. I have really only considered hunting... and 3D shooting as great practice for hunting and a hell of a lot of fun. I really wasn't thinking of shots over 30 yards in a practical sense...in my use of archery. 

I should remember there are many other venues in archery....

Other comments: I think shooting instinctive makes archery so much more fun. Using a sight is much less appealing to me.

On instinctive shooting for quick shots in hunting...I would say... I don't see the hunting shots as quick shots that are taken in an instant...but rather deliberate shots taken with good judgement (taken within a few long seconds). Also, "once mastered", whether you snap shoot or deliberate... instinctive shooting allows for such a simple method to make a shot in the hunting scenario and I have seen many fellow bowhunters get reasonably skilled with reasonable effort and practice...where they can shoot 75- 80% kill shots in a 3D shoot. One of our standard practices is to always put a check alongside each shot column on the score card when shooting a 3D shoot, when you figure the animal was definitely dead from your shot (scoring a 10 or not). Once done, we compute our percentage of kill shots out of all shots taken. When we could shoot at or over 80% in a 3D shoot, we knew we were maintaining a good level of shooting skill because of the nature of instinctive shooting and the difficulty in keeping your concentration that focused for such a longer period of time. Further on this train of thought, if you can maintain an 80% kill ratio over the 2-3 hours of a 3D shoot, you will have a much better chance of being successful in the field when you have to make a single shot at an animal...your ability to strongly focus improves and you really increase you chances of making the shot.

RB


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rob - 

Thanks for the kind words .

When teaching, I always start new shooters, regardless of age, "instinctive", unless of course they show up with a compound, sight, release, etc ... then tactics changes, bul less than most folks would imagine.

By starting someone off "instinctively" (I really wish there were a better word for it), I can see what they are doing or trying to do. It has given me over the years, as an instructor,or coach, a better idea of what THEIR thought process are and what I have to do to make it click - for them. I will intoduce sights, clickers, etc, if I see a problem arising that needs to be stopped sooner rather than later. 

Just for the record - for new shooters who don't get the aiming thing as quickly as others, I'll set up a temporary "toothpick" sight before I'll consider poa or gap. Just keeps it simplier. I have to show them that they CAN hit the target, else they can become discouraged and we'd loose another potential archer. 

Viper1 out.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

RobB,

You made some good points.

I only used the example of quick shots because that is where in lies the advantages with Instinctive Aiming over the other conscious aiming techiniques.

Just because an archer takes a shot quickly does not mean it was taken undeliberately or in poor judgment. 

A few seconds is generally considered a short amount of time when you consider what the average conscious aiming techinique involves when estimating yardage and than consciously fine tune their aiming process.

A quick instinctive shot can be very deliberate and can be taken in good judgment if the archer has mastered that situation through practice with effective accuracy.

Ray


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

Agreed...

Rod B


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> A quick instinctive shot can be very deliberate and can be taken in good judgment if the archer has mastered that situation through practice with effective accuracy.
> 
> Ray


You guys have all made good points and this has been a good discussion. 

I practice all year for that one opportunity at the shot where I might have a split second to react. I shoot instinctive simply because it works best for me for where and how I hunt. The only targets I shoot are 3d or stumps and clumps. Course, God made red squirrels for target practice too.


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## wetraptor (Dec 1, 2006)

A point of reference, 60 years old, started shooting at age 8, "instinctive", 32 year hiatus, stepped up to 20 yard line with bow similar to what I used to shoot, nocked arrow, drew, held and released. ( missed the center of course ) arrow struck a bit high and to the left but well within the paper. I have never used POA ( at least not knowingly or on purpose ) Both eyes open and seeking the center of the bullseye. I would summit that my subconcious remembered everything from all those earlier years of practice and enabled me to make a "killing shot" I am confident I would never go hungy. LMAO Thanks for letting me share.


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## davemr (Dec 16, 2006)

*Gap vs angle*

I use to shoot hay bails at random distances from 50 to 100+ yards with a long bow and recurve. I always thought of my shooting as instinctive but realize that I can obviously see the arrow tip at closer yardage. However, at long ranges I angled my bow up significantly where I didn't have a good view of the tip I did see the angle of the arrow shaft and new the arch of the arrow. I just lined up the shaft with what I perceived the start of the arch to be and let it rip. I wasn't shooting at competition accuracy or hunting accuracy but I was consistently hitting hay bails. (stacked three high) 


Watching my sons shoot I can usually tell if they are going to have a good or bad shot from the angle of the arrow when they are about to release. Does anyone else feel like they pay attention to, or at least notice, the general angle of the arrow when they are shooting?


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## marianigp (May 1, 2006)

*Learning To Shoot*

I think the key phrase here is "learning to shoot".....awsome!
Keep shooting....it'll come. The key, obviously is to shoot every chance you get. Stick with the instinctive until your comfortable releasing an arrow....and then try GAP, if you can borrow a buddies, "Masters of the Barebow" video, rent it, or buy it; Rod Jenkins does an outstanding job of explaining GAP shooting and with 2 world IBO championships under his belt it may worth checiking out.


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## ROB B (Oct 30, 2002)

*This is VERY GOOD DISCUSSION*

I have no idea which I shoot. I will almost always nail what I take a quick shot at, but on longer shots I think about how the arrow will fly and angle it accordingly. So do I gap or instintive?

Oh and some of my best scores on 3-D are on night shoots when I can not see bow and arrow only small lightstik on target..



BUT I enjoy it and thus will not stop shooting looking for a defination  :darkbeer: 



ROB B


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