# Form Analysis



## PigOPs (Oct 12, 2015)

I recently started shootings compound again after a couple years off shooting trad bows. Just want some feedback. I’m waiting on my press to shorten the string as my DL is a little long. (I also switched to side plates which made it a little longer.) Anyway, I’m grouping well but want to be the best I can be by hunting season. (Need to work on that gut too )







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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

PigOPs said:


> I recently started shootings compound again after a couple years off shooting trad bows. Just want some feedback. I’m waiting on my press to shorten the string as my DL is a little long. (I also switched to side plates which made it a little longer.) Anyway, I’m grouping well but want to be the best I can be by hunting season. (Need to work on that gut too )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) had to rotate photo THIS MUCH, to get the bow hand (top of thumb) LEVEL with the tops of shoulders.










So, this means right shoulder is SKY HIGH, and I had to rotate photo THIS much,
to get TOP of right shoulder level with TOP of left shoulder, level with TOP of thumb.

Oh yeah. BLUE box is edge to edge on the ankles.
So, Vertical RED line splits the center between ankles.
You are MORE than a little long on DL
and you are leaning backwards MUCH MORE than a little bit.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Drop the draw length 2-inches shorter.
Serious.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So, what are the guidelines?
LEVEL bow arm...meaning top of thumb and level bow arm bones, and level tops of shoulders
combined with vertical backbone.

So, why do I say drop the draw 2 full INCHES>
I had to rotate your photo a LOT, to get your bow arm and shoulders to LEVEL,
had to rotate your photo backwards a gREAT deal, to level out your bow arm.

THIS shows you how much the draw is too long.
The doctored photo is on the left, and I chopped up your body into pieces
1) to get your backbone to vertical
2) to get your head/neck centered between your ankles.

So, I created a red outline shadow, and over-laid that standing up straight outline
onto your photo, to show you how far your right elbow has to swing FORWARDS, to get your backbone to vertical.

So, while the bow draw length has to drop about 2-inches SHORTER,
your body has to swing forwards, about 6-inches (see tip of nose versus red shadow outline).


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## PigOPs (Oct 12, 2015)

Here is the pic without your super-imposed rotation on it. I agree that my shoulders are not level BUT I disagree with WHY.

I happen to be shooting at a target that is about 12” off of the ground. Now I know that I SHOULD be bending at the WAIST instead of making the correction with my shoulders but I’m NOT. 

IF I were to follow your advice I would have trouble getting the release to my face. I’m 6’2” and have a 75” wingspan. YOU’RE suggesting that I drop to a 28” DL. 

I feel like my DL may be as much as .5” long (Mathews run long) but I’ve tried to shoot a 28” bow before. AIN’T happening. 

I appreciate the time that you put into your analysis but I think you left out an important piece of data. Target height. 


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## PigOPs (Oct 12, 2015)

Here is from this morning. I’m now shooting at a chest high target. 

I don’t disagree that my draw length is too long. I can feel it. I disagree that it’s 2” too long. 


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

PigOPs said:


> Here is the pic without your super-imposed rotation on it. I agree that my shoulders are not level BUT I disagree with WHY.
> 
> I happen to be shooting at a target that is about 12” off of the ground. Now I know that I SHOULD be bending at the WAIST instead of making the correction with my shoulders but I’m NOT.
> 
> ...


For a target that is only 12-inches above the ground,
WEIRD that your arrow is pointing slightly uphill. So, this 12-inch tall target on the ground, must be REALLY REALLY far away.










Since the brick building behind you usually are built vertical, I rotated your photo so the edge of the door entry is vertical. Your arrow is slightly UPHILL, so very weird that you aim the arrow UPHILL for a 12-inch tall target sitting on the ground.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

This photo, I would keep the draw length the same (as-is)
and have you lean forwards 1/2-inch, to put a bit more weight on the left ankle, if u target shoot.










Lean forwards just another half inch, and you will hold more steady and bust more nocks at 30 yards.


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## PigOPs (Oct 12, 2015)

I don’t understand… are you saying I’m lying? I’m at 30 yards shooting a 525 grain arrow out of a 60# bow. 

So yes my arrow is pointing up. After your doctoring it is REALLY pointing up. 

I’ve used your tuning guide for years and have appreciated the knowledge in it but the one thing I am not is an idiot. I used software to put the lines on my pic from this morning where I know for sure they are square. You’re not the only one with picture software. 










You are welcome to bow out if you don’t appreciate pushback but you haven’t explained how simply aiming at a higher point this morning leveled out my shoulders quite a bit. 

Edited: You responded as I was typing this and seemed to say that simply aiming higher “fixed” my draw length. 

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## PigOPs (Oct 12, 2015)

I’m sorry for the snarky response. I realize I’m asking for free help. Just wouldn’t try to mask an issue if I thought I can improve. It hit me this morning after seeing what you did that I was aiming at a low target and not bending at the waist to keep my T square. Thanks for your time and responses.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Ok. Scaled both photos to the same size.
Leveled the photos so the windshield on the truck in the background is dead level.
Edge of brick building is vertical.

Current photo has entire bow into field of view, so I can get the string angle correct.










Left photo is a chest high target.
Right photo, arrow is slightly uphill, but you say you are shooting a 12-inch tall target on the ground,
and to shoot a 12-inch tall target on the ground, you are leaning backwards, and have arrow slightly above horizontal.

Let group size guide you for draw length, regardless of what LABEL is on the draw module.
Either keep draw module size, and thicken the grip with tape...1/16th inch thick layer.
A 1/16th inch layer of tape will thicken the grip, will shrink the brace by 1/16th inch,
and will drop draw length 1/16th inch SHORTER. This will improve hold and tighten up groups.

THen, experiment with a 1/8th thick layer of tape or wooden shim or plastic shim.
This will reduce brace by 1/8th inch, and will also drop the draw length 1/8th inch.
Tiny changes, should tighten up the groups.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

PigOPs said:


> I’m sorry for the snarky response. I realize I’m asking for free help. Just wouldn’t try to mask an issue if I thought I can improve. It hit me this morning after seeing what you did that I was aiming at a low target and not bending at the waist to keep my T square. Thanks for your time and responses.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try tiny changes. Layers of masking tape or a thin wooden shim or a 3D printed plastic shim.
Can try 1/16th inch thick shim.
Can try 1/8th inch thick shim. Even cardboard wrapped to the grip with blue masking tape can make a temporary shim
and this will allow tiny experiments in draw length between module sizes.

I rotated the photo so the truck windshield and truck bumper were dead level
and got the edge of the brick building to dead vertical.

With todays photo, I agree that the current draw module size is in the ball park,
and would experiment with going in the shorter direction
until you can bust nocks at 30 yards. When shooting one hole arrow diameter groups at 30 yards,
THEN, you have really dialed in the tuning on the bow, and the shooting posture at full draw.

Example.



THIS guy was asking for help, JUST like you.
He was stuck low, hitting 12-inches below the spot at 20 yards.
HALF the folks said he was too long on the draw.
HALF the folks said he was too short on the draw.
Most of the folks said he had target panic. 

Same ole, same ole. LOTS of bad advice.
So, sent him a pm. TOLD him the bow DRAW LENGTH was perfect, actually.
However, his FORM, his full draw posture needs LOTS of work.
Told him he needed 60 MINUTES of form work practice.
NOT months of blank bale work.

NEW form, but with exact same bow draw length. ZERO tuning on the bow settings.
Added a DIY kisser button, cuz I changed his anchor.



NEW anchor, with DIY kisser button touching corner of mouth.



OLD and NEW full draw posture, with the EXACT same draw length.

So, his NEW 20 yd results, after 60 minutes of short distance practice, for the NEW posture.



He can hit the spot at 20 yards, now. No longer stuck low.

So, he just HAD to try 30 yards.



Busting nocks at 30 yards.

SO, try things (bow tuning) and Full Draw Posture, until you can bust nocks at 30 yards.
When you can bust nocks at 30 yards...then, you are onto something....the ideal bow tuning for you,
the ideal bow module size for you (regardless of what the label says)
and you are onto the IDEAL full draw posture for you.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Fella I have been working with via PM message.

_"I shortened my d-loop by about a 1/16"
I added an 1/8" shim to the grip. My son has a 3D printer so I just made some with it.
Ended up having to lower my peep slightly."_

So, fella made two shims for his grip. One shim was flat, equal thickness.
One shim was wedge shaped.










If you don't have a 3D printer, you can take narrow 3/4-inch wide strips of masking tape, and make a equal thickness shim.

You can also simulate a wedge with masking tape, by layering shorter and shorter strips of masking tape
to create a wedge, if you wanna play with a new grip angle.










So, fella had been trying for 2 years to get his consistency back. Sometimes, little things matter.
He shortened his d-loop 1/16th inch.
He shortened his draw by the thickness of a plastic shim, about an 1/8th thick, so he shortened his draw length 1/8th inch. Moved his peep a little, to change his anchor.

BUT, it's the combination of the "right things" to cut the group size,
the get a busted nock....I believe this was 20 yards.

Work on posture at full draw.
Make small changes in draw length (thicken the grip) and continue to experiment until you can bust nocks at 20 yards, and 30 yards. When you can bust nocks at 30 yards, then, you KNOW you have made the "correct for you" changes.


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