# Modern Longbow Design Inferior To Old?



## marklind (Sep 30, 2013)

So, I got the Howard Hill Co. longbow catalog, and there was this interesting ditty.

"For all hunting archers, the longbow with straight ends is the only one to consider."

While I realize that this is mostly trying to differentiate the longbow and the recurve, it continues to refer to the longbow elsewhere as the "straight-end longbow".

While reflex/deflexing the longbow helps with efficiency and vibration, what characteristics do we GIVE UP by designing the bow in this way? Is it more torquey and more sensitive to errors?


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Yes it is, but.......there are also many advantages to a modern R/D longbow. Grip, they store more energy and release that energy more efficiently, are usually a bit shorter and have a little to a lot less hand shock. There is an essay called "Fundamentals of the Design of Olympic Recurve Bows" that explains very well why a longbow is the most stable design, worth looking up if you have a minute.

Here's a link http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ve-Bows.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_138594407830710


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Well you give-up tendon destroying handshock when you go with a R/D design, so that is something you lose.

Otherwise I can't think of anything until you get to a R/D design that is extreme enough to lose vertical stability.

-Grant


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Deflex/reflex isn't a "modern" design--there are cave drawings, in Spain I think, of D/R longbows. In general they aren't as quiet, maybe a little less forgiving, but faster with tons less handshock.


----------



## marklind (Sep 30, 2013)

Those are great answers. There was a guy at the indoor range, yesterday, with a what looked like 50 year old clear green fiberglass longbow (straight ended) that had duct tape in a couple spots. He was shooting it off his finger since there was no shelf. Quietest bow I ever heard. He was grouping 7 inches at 18m (obviously the shooter was skilled).

So, the R/D might be louder than the straight ended longbow, have less hand shock, and have more efficiency (more stored power put into the arrow). It might be a little less forgiving, but it's a fantastic trade off?


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

For me it is. The increased shock and decreased performance doesn't do a thing for my accuracy--I much rather shoot d/r longbows. It's hard to talk me into shooting a straight limbed longbow.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

marklind said:


> Modern Longbow Design Inferior To Old?


No.

Not just "No" but "H E Double Hockey Sticks No!"


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=098600
Give this thread a glance. It is solid Howard Hill and will give you a wide perspective on that type of bow from the folk who shoot them. This is part one of two threads - it maxed out at 1,000 pages a while back. Sooo ... there is a bit of info here, for sure. 

I shoot both R/D and the Hill bows. A Hill bow is a bit like drinking scotch - you either take to it, or you don't. 

My R/D bows are a bit louder than the Hill (which has only the string's sound present), yet yarn silencers takes care of that completely. Less hand shock in general, though some still have a bit of liveliness in the hand on the shot. More efficiency ... yes. Less forgiving with an R/D ... not in my experience. My R/D bows are equally hip to shoot when I am doing my job, and likewise are my Hills. 

Fantastic trade-off? If an R/D bow offers what you want, and Hill bows don't really appeal to you in a seductive, irresistible way, then I'd say yes. But sometime down the road, with several bows and lots of shots under your belt, at least give one a whack if you get the chance just to see what all the fuss is about. They are unique, fun, and interesting bows to shoot, and one never knows when the taste for scotch may suddenly manifest itself over the years.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

If you value speed, smoothness and the fillings staying in you're teeth, there's only one choice and it ain't a Hill style bow.


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Hmm, so what you guys are saying is you can tell right away what kind of person you are dealing with when they show up at a tourney with a Hill bow- grin


----------



## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

centershot thanks for the link, it was a good read :thumbs_up


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

centershot said:


> Yes it is, but.......there are also many advantages to a modern R/D longbow. Grip, they store more energy and release that energy more efficiently, are usually a bit shorter and have a little to a lot less hand shock. There is an essay called "Fundamentals of the Design of Olympic Recurve Bows" that explains very well why a longbow is the most stable design, worth looking up if you have a minute.
> 
> Here's a link http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ve-Bows.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_138594407830710


I would argue about it being the more stable design there is more to the design than just torsion.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

OK, make the argument.


----------



## ghound (Nov 26, 2013)

I shoot mainly ELB and there can be big variations in hand shock between bowyers, but i prefer the lighter weight Victorian style target bow (against the english warbow) which can be fast and smooth with very little noticeable hand shock. Look also at my 53lb bow below with the pronounced reflex when unstrung, it's energy builds early in the draw and knocks out a 400gn arrow about 170-180fps 
I have tried a few modern one piece D/R style flat bows/field bows that have had loads more hand shock, and there's a joy to shoot a bow made in the hands of a skilful bowyer over one off a production line designed by a computer, but everyone to there own lol
.
.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bender said:


> OK, make the argument.


a unsupported string length of 67" on a 70" bow is fully unsupported for the entirety of the power stroke with a longbow.
The unsupported length of a recurve with 3" of string wrap at each end will give you 61" of free to move about string length.

when the string is supported in the groove, the limb is not only supporting the string, but also supporting it on a more stout portion of the limb, and not at full extention of the limb like the longbow.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

in other words, its like the plucked ruler on the edge of the desk idea. 
as you haul in the length you get less amplitude.
if you haul in the string you get less amplidute too.
so the difference in a plucked loose will be hauled in on a bow that supports and controls the string.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Borderbows said:


> I would argue about it being the more stable design there is more to the design than just torsion.


I took the original question as being inherently accurate. Your post about the future of bows definitely explains why modern laminates and designs have overcome the torsion issues and we now have a better bow for it. That essay made it pretty clear to me why a D longbow was the most inherently stable design. It seems to me that everything we do with pre loading limbs beyond the basic D (recurve, R/D) increases torque. Could be wrong, would like to hear more.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I like the way a "straight" wood bow with a little string follow shoots. I can't claim to be a skilled bowyer because none of the bows I made (board bows) survived very long but I enjoyed shooting them while they lasted.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

steve morley said:


> centershot thanks for the link, it was a good read :thumbs_up


That came from that monster thread about future bows, I believe Sid originally posted it. I agree, very interesting and informative. Short and simple enough for anyone to understand, well worth the 10 minutes it takes to read.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I've never seen any loss of stability with a hybrid or D/R longbow over a straight end. If there's not string-to-limb contact, I'm good. Only difference, the D/R bow is faster (so I don't have to shoot the same weight), gentler in the hand (so I'm less to flinch during follow through due to handshock), and a lot smoother. Not a huge difference in scores, but when it comes to hunting I'd rather shoot a 50-55# bow that has the same performance as a 60-65#... especially when it's cold out


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

centershot said:


> I took the original question as being inherently accurate. Your post about the future of bows definitely explains why modern laminates and designs have overcome the torsion issues and we now have a better bow for it. That essay made it pretty clear to me why a D longbow was the most inherently stable design. It seems to me that everything we do with pre loading limbs beyond the basic D (recurve, R/D) increases torque. Could be wrong, would like to hear more.


Torque is one thing... Stability is a more complex issue.

Stability is about minimising variables.
release inconsistency is one area that creates a lot of variables in a horizontal plane. this is emphisied in a limb that lacks torsional stability ("D" shaped bows have much less problems with torsion than Hybrids and recurves, Granted)
what your looking for is max stability in that last inch or so of power stroke at the point of separation I would have thought.

So anything that reduces the amount of side ways swing is a good thing.
recurves struggle with torsional problems, but do come with some added side effects.
Shorter unsupported string length being one.
If you can halt the torsion problems, and over build torsional stability then you can start to look at it in a more performance enhancing way.

We beleave that using a tolerance to spine is a way to describe tolerance to release issues.


I beleave when it was mentioned (and this is where interpretation of whats read vs whats intended might be different) that "d" shaped bow are more stable, that adds more complexity.
"D" shaped bows struggle less with torsion id agree with that.

I think recurves do have a more complex place in the stability stakes than simply torsion issues.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> I've never seen any loss of stability with a hybrid or D/R longbow over a straight end.


Can't say that I have for the most part--that's why I said "*maybe* a little less forgiving". I'm no bowyer and don't pretend to be--that's just been a prevailing argument I've seen time and time again. That was one of Hill's arguments for his style bow.

There are exceptions to every rule. Some of the worst hand shock I've ever experienced was from recurves.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

kegan said:


> I've never seen any loss of stability with a hybrid or D/R longbow over a straight end. If there's not string-to-limb contact, I'm good. Only difference, the D/R bow is faster (so I don't have to shoot the same weight), gentler in the hand (so I'm less to flinch during follow through due to handshock), and a lot smoother. Not a huge difference in scores, but when it comes to hunting I'd rather shoot a 50-55# bow that has the same performance as a 60-65#... especially when it's cold out


can you make a hybrid 3/4" wide from fade to tip?
you cant make a 1/2" wide recurve, but you can make a 3/4" wide straight limbed bow.

most hybrids R/D bows are more than an inch wide would you agree?

an example of this is take a fishing rod.
continuous curve takes the fish and gives no problems.
if the rod had a reverse flick to it, then the rod would flutter under load.
if the rod was recurved, then the rod could twist round in your hand under load.

That's one of the reasons most hybrids are wider than a Howard hill bow.

IMHO that is.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Kegan, read that link to the recurve study. I think you will find it interesting.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> a unsupported string length of 67" on a 70" bow is fully unsupported for the entirety of the power stroke with a longbow.
> The unsupported length of a recurve with 3" of string wrap at each end will give you 61" of free to move about string length.
> 
> when the string is supported in the groove, the limb is not only supporting the string, but also supporting it on a more stout portion of the limb, and not at full extention of the limb like the longbow.


Yes but would that not be offset by the lack of torsional stabilty that the recuve limb has in comparison to the longbow limb? Even with recurve limbs designed for higher torsional stabilty they noodle more than a longbow limb upon return to BH.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> can you make a hybrid 3/4" wide from fade to tip?
> you cant make a 1/2" wide recurve, but you can make a 3/4" wide straight limbed bow.
> 
> most hybrids R/D bows are more than an inch wide would you agree?
> ...


This argument here refutes your earlier argumant that a recuve limb has higher stability.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bender said:


> This argument here refutes your earlier argumant that a recuve limb has higher stability.


not quite...

if you make the rod flat and wide, then it will have torsional stability built into its design. 
hence why recurve limbs are wide.
but that's just the Torsional problem

you still need to consider that stability is a holistic package.

it includes riser mass, the way the mass is distributed, string support, etc.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bender said:


> Yes but would that not be offset by the lack of torsional stabilty that the recuve limb has in comparison to the longbow limb? Even with recurve limbs designed for higher torsional stabilty they noodle more than a longbow limb upon return to BH.


noodle in which direction?


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bender said:


> This argument here refutes your earlier argumant that a recuve limb has higher stability.


The other post about recurves was to discuss the string recovery aspect of the limb and string contact toward the end of string travel. The post you are quoting has no recurve mention in it - all longbow design - no bow where the string changes effective length on the limbs. He's simply stating that by design, the more stable hybrid longbow requires more width than does a straight limb longbow.


----------



## ArcherFletch (Jul 8, 2012)

slinging your bow over your back like a quiver (brace height = depth of chest) not shooting related but its easier to do with a D-shaped longbow.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> noodle in which direction?


Left to right and back.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

What really "noodles" is a long heavy thin non-ts set of limbs...the recuve of this ilk will "noodle" a bit more.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I read the post about stability in the Oly bows. Thought I understood it, but some of what's being said here... I'm lost:lol:


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I think you have it - the carbon layers and orientation is all about controlling the noodle!


----------



## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

centershot said:


> I think you have it - the carbon layers and orientation is all about controlling the noodle!


I can control my noodle just fine without carbon fiber, thank you very much....

But yeah, fiber layup direction can have a big impact on how limbs behave.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

As to what a noodle is about, if you have owned an early pair of Hoyt carbon/foams, the limb tips told you the whole story. So noticeable, it attracts the attention of those shooting near your. If you scroll up to 12:00 minutes on this video and watch the post-shot, slow motion, movement of the upper portion of some Hoyt 900's, you can see "noodle" in live action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH6cvdKeZ58


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

nice bit of video there, as you can see that limb tip wobbles all over the place, but you will see that the string in the groove doesn't sway much.

Do basically, if you can control the front end of the shot, then stabilise the string in a groove, you start to win on the stability stakes over a longbow


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

post 5 of this thread... 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=889833

shows you that even though the test was done years before the post was placed, some companies had been at the fiber orientation game for some time...


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes although the limb is noodling, and the string is in the groove, the string is not in that groove until the string has hit brace. The arrow is long gone. I guess that an argument could be made that such is more "stable" but to what end? It has no bearing at that point on the flight of the arrow.


----------



## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

Thanks so much! I'm enjoying this even though most of it whooshes over my head!

As far as modern v old "longbow", I've wondered about modern v old "recurves" too. Like working v static tips, and how we got there from the bows w siyas/ears that I like to shoot in the SCA... some of these seem as quiet (w/o any silencers) as any longbow I've tried. 




I've noticed there can be a huge difference in how bows (of any type) that look alike can feel/perform for me. While you usually get what you pay for, I've shot bows that cost $125 that feel better, give me better arrow flight, and are easier for me to hit w than bows that cost much, much more. I've got old bows from the 1950s I shoot better than some of the new stuff too. Which confirms how much habit and what's in your head can do w it all?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bender said:


> Yes although the limb is noodling, and the string is in the groove, the string is not in that groove until the string has hit brace. The arrow is long gone. I guess that an argument could be made that such is more "stable" but to what end? It has no bearing at that point on the flight of the arrow.


the string wraps into the groove in the same way compounds haul in string.

recurves have two positions where they make a noise,the initial flat spot where the "Y" of the string usually sits, (what we call preslap) and then at the other end of the string groove ie at BH, where the string slaps, (what we call post slap) these two areas can be cushioned to take noise away, but the bit in the middle (the string groove its self) doesn't make any noise during the shot, and the string is layed into that groove during the power stroke.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> the string wraps into the groove in the same way compounds haul in string.
> 
> recurves have two positions where they make a noise,the initial flat spot where the "Y" of the string usually sits, (what we call preslap) and then at the other end of the string groove ie at BH, where the string slaps, (what we call post slap) these two areas can be cushioned to take noise away, but the bit in the middle (the string groove its self) doesn't make any noise during the shot, and the string is layed into that groove during the power stroke.


The string on a conventional recurve doesn't pick up that groove till 20" or so, so that's 28-20 where its in full swing.

Its possible to pick up the string at 27", and support it for 7" at each end of the bow...

This means you have increased the stability in 2 ways, both initial pickup and in length


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

One of the best features of some old designs is they are "ultralights". I have a 60" recurve that is well under 2lbs. I have self bows (and have seen many other longbows) under a pound and a half.

When I shoot my ILF metal riser bow with widgets ("boat anchor"/sight and "lead mine"/stab), I can not shoot as long without my bow shoulder getting very tired. Once I take off the widgets...I can shoot longer. If I am hiking with a pack, I like everything as light as possible.

More mass/widgets will make for a more precisely accurate bow. Shooting my "ultralight" bows is not quite as accurate, yet is some how "heavenly"?


----------



## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

I'm with wseward. I have a great ILF set up but can't put down my longbow, not for the way it shoots (not as consistent as ilf recurve) but for the way it feels.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> the string wraps into the groove in the same way compounds haul in string.
> 
> recurves have two positions where they make a noise,the initial flat spot where the "Y" of the string usually sits, (what we call preslap) and then at the other end of the string groove ie at BH, where the string slaps, (what we call post slap) these two areas can be cushioned to take noise away, but the bit in the middle (the string groove its self) doesn't make any noise during the shot, and the string is layed into that groove during the power stroke.


OK I follow. So the curve spools up the string while the arrow is still on the string. That string is being spooled into a groove on the limb. It would seem that you are counting having the string lay into the groove on doing something for the string and arrow flight. Fine. Lets grant that the groove influences the string. 

Oh! But wait! That groove is in a limb that is noodling! Oops! Right back where we started. 

Perhaps we're wishing to have our cake and eat it too?

So, as of yet, the case for the recurve being inherently more stable than the longbow has yet to made.

But that's OK!

Keep working on it


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

if the longbow limb is more stable, and modern longbow limbs are almost as fast as the faster recurves, it makes me wonder. are any of the olympic archers using longbow limbs? are there rules against it? with fixed distances, sights, and clickers, would seemt that a few fps of performance would be secondary to stability... maybe somebody does use longbow limbs, for all i know.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bender said:


> OK I follow. So the curve spools up the string while the arrow is still on the string. That string is being spooled into a groove on the limb. It would seem that you are counting having the string lay into the groove on doing something for the string and arrow flight. Fine. Lets grant that the groove influences the string.
> 
> Oh! But wait! That groove is in a limb that is noodling! Oops! Right back where we started.


if you look at the limb tip, its wobbling left and right.
the string is not moving nearly at much.
what energy makes the tip wobble left and right, if the bow limb is travelling forward?

in our view its the release that does this.

The sideways movement that creates the paradox.

If the limb is torsionally more stable than this sideways movement is less.

ontop of that, the string when in the groove doesn't wobble as much as the tip does.

back to my point, longbow limbs have all this happening at full extension, while recurves have it happening 3" in the bow where its more stout and stocky.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> longbow limbs have all this happening at full extension,


Fine, but at this point that is an assumption that has yet to be demonstrated. 

Did you read the article first referred to by centershot?

Groove or no groove, the case is still not made.


----------



## GPW (May 12, 2012)

With so many choices these days , it’s more like “Shoot what you Like , and shoot what works Best for you “ ... and remember all bows (like women) are different and some just behave better than others... try everything out , pick what You like !!! Simple eh !!!


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Did you read the article first referred to by centershot?

I think Sid read it, he's the one that originally posted it. I believe the article and theory relates to very simple limbs made of the same material. What has happened with modern materials is that the twisting force has been controlled and if properly designed is no longer an issue.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

centershot said:


> Did you read the article first referred to by centershot?
> 
> I think Sid read it, he's the one that originally posted it. I believe the article and theory relates to very simple limbs made of the same material. What has happened with modern materials is that the twisting force has been controlled and if properly designed is no longer an issue.


we are also the ones that supplied some of the information for it.

but yes, in my view your right on the button there.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

So you're admitting that to approach the stability of the longbow, a recurve design requires special materials considerations? You're abandoning the position that the recurve is inherently more stable than the longbow?


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

ts is effected by release. We, as archers, all know a bad release. Suddenly your tuned arrow is no longer tuned. The tips are NOW moving in a way they should not. Design/build can help correct this problem...to a extent.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

my string grooves aren't even centered on my relatively low tech wood/glass limb recurve, with a reflexed riser, 6 5/8 inch brace height, and the bow shoots fine. i've had crappy releases that i was certain were going to miss the target entirely, and the arrows still sent pretty close to where i wanted them. the discussion is very interesting, but the sum of it depends on a lot of factors. did you notice that even with those noodling limb tips, the left/right accuracy of the arrow was pretty much dead center?

i'd rather have technically better than not, but considering what a traditional bow does due to a finger release and arrow paradox, we're really just hoping to get a straight sum out of a mess of curves. so long as it does it consistently, it doesn't matter.

while the curves of a recurve may introduce an additonal parameter that must be addressed in design, and bows that disregard that parameter pursuing speed or whatever else will pay a price, i think that the consistency and accuracy achieved with olympic recurves shows that the torsional stability differences due to recurve geometry can be adequately addressed, at least far beyond my skill level.


----------



## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

just for the heck of it, I would like to see max tech in materials and design applied to this style of bow (static recurve w siyas/ears). Some have the ears spliced into the limbs, some have them attached to the back.



Kaya makes some trad Korean bows w carbon, but that's a different animal (Turkish derivative w working recurve IIRC).


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

broken arrow.... what do you mean. ilf tech in a horse bow?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> my string grooves aren't even centered on my relatively low tech wood/glass limb recurve, with a reflexed riser, 6 5/8 inch brace height, and the bow shoots fine. i've had crappy releases that i was certain were going to miss the target entirely, and the arrows still sent pretty close to where i wanted them. the discussion is very interesting, but the sum of it depends on a lot of factors. did you notice that even with those noodling limb tips, the left/right accuracy of the arrow was pretty much dead center?
> 
> i'd rather have technically better than not, but considering what a traditional bow does due to a finger release and arrow paradox, we're really just hoping to get a straight sum out of a mess of curves. so long as it does it consistently, it doesn't matter.
> 
> while the curves of a recurve may introduce an additonal parameter that must be addressed in design, and bows that disregard that parameter pursuing speed or whatever else will pay a price, i think that the consistency and accuracy achieved with olympic recurves shows that the torsional stability differences due to recurve geometry can be adequately addressed, at least far beyond my skill level.


a twisted broom will repeat itself. but even the top archers find a well aligned tuned bow more predictable.
then the bow is on form. the same archer can tell where the arrow is going to go. when the bow is out that archer can struggle to tell you where a small pulled shot is going to land.
predictability is down to bow setup imo


----------



## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

Borderbows said:


> broken arrow.... what do you mean. ilf tech in a horse bow?


Yeah, and more! Cinnabar/Mariner already make a 3 piece Ming style TD similar to my pic... http://www.cinnabarbow.com/marinerbows/mingmoon5.html

The Khan is awesome, but that's not the "look" I'm looking for. Saluki and Spitfire kinda moving in that direction...

Also, some of us do not want max performance, we just want "good enough" speed/accuracy/stability in something cheap and bulletproof if ya know what I mean. If somebody made a 40# all polymer horsebow like the PSE Snake I could hit paper plates at 20 yds with, I'ld buy two!


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Lol


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

which khan are you talking about....





BrokenArrows said:


> Yeah, and more! Cinnabar/Mariner already make a 3 piece Ming style TD similar to my pic... http://www.cinnabarbow.com/marinerbows/mingmoon5.html
> 
> The Khan is awesome, but that's not the "look" I'm looking for. Saluki and Spitfire kinda moving in that direction...
> 
> Also, some of us do not want max performance, we just want "good enough" speed/accuracy/stability in something cheap and bulletproof if ya know what I mean. If somebody made a 40# all polymer horsebow like the PSE Snake I could hit paper plates at 20 yds with, I'ld buy two!


----------



## BrokenArrows (Apr 20, 2004)

Borderbows said:


> which khan are you talking about....


Yours; the one you can hang anywhere.  

I'm glad guys like you at the top keep pushing the envelope; it means better stuff at a better price for everybody eventually.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

BrokenArrows said:


> Yours; the one you can hang anywhere.
> 
> I'm glad guys like you at the top keep pushing the envelope; it means better stuff at a better price for everybody eventually.


the khan is a 58 60 and 62" bow. the khan has hex6 limbs
the ghillie dhu is a 52 and 56". the Gd has more a hex7 on it.


----------

