# Proper use of the back



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

There have been many discussions concerning back tension but these have generally been limited to a debate surrounding BT as a firing engine. I'd like to limit this discussion to how the back is used in the setup and the hold. I've always had difficulty in this area and as a result use way too much arm and shoulder. What experience can you share about this very important subject?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

It's seems I'm generally against the grain...but I don't see how we (at least I) can begin pulling with the back. Seems more of a arm/shoulder start with a transfer to the back muscles. 

From that point it's a lengthen then to me (old recurve "expansion" mindset). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Good info here - it is totally transferable to the compound bow.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

If you have ever been outside, sort of just standing there and all of sudden you get the cold wind go up your back. Get set to draw and think about the shiver up the spine and begin your draw. It gets the right muscles contracting to load going in the right direction. Same shiver wil fire release once set and ready fire. It's a speaking metaphorically but its the best way I can describe how to get things going.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> It's seems I'm generally against the grain...but I don't see how we (at least I) can begin pulling with the back. Seems more of a arm/shoulder start with a transfer to the back muscles.
> 
> From that point it's a lengthen then to me (old recurve "expansion" mindset).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can agree here.


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## hmcnavyidc (Sep 18, 2012)

EPLC, 

With regards to the back, it is about engaging the scapula which is utilized in the use of both back tension, tension as well as other release aids. One thing that needs to be addressed is that if the front shoulder is not in the correct position* ( low and away ) *versus improper positioning* ( collapsed * high and scrunched up)* engaging that scapula will be more of an issue. All too often I see individuals struggling with the BT and utilizing the correct musculature to engage a proper shot. With the front shoulder in the correct position, you engage the rear scapula’s but imagining a point in the rear as to where the release hand elbow is pointing. Concentrate on driving that elbow to that imaginary point behind you, all-the-while squeeze the scapula’s together as it you had a tennis ball in between them. This is what it feels like to properly engage the scapula for a BT. Try without a bow to place your front shoulder in a collapsed position high and scrunched up. Then try the movement discussed, it is odd feeling right, not comfortable. I am not a proponent of soliciting any gear but I would look at the accubow, this is a key piece of equipment to sit around and work on strength as well as shot execution. It comes with a D-loop to really practice those tension activated shots. 
Hope this helps. 


DOC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvgyI-Zyf-U


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## hmcnavyidc (Sep 18, 2012)

In regards to the above youtube link, John starts in on the tension and posture about the 21:00 Mark. There are some other great tidbits as well in this video. If you are not following John Dudley at NockOn I would suggest you take a look and read through some of his articles as well as his podcast vis Podbean (all free), he also as you can see has a youtube channel. Talk about high quality coaching from a guy whos a world champion in many disciplines. 

Doc
#NockOn


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## hmcnavyidc (Sep 18, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvKy1KTll5E&t=1784s

woops wrong URL and its the 31:00 min mark


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

If you lead the draw with the draw arm elbow once coming off the "set up" you will notice a seemingly increase in back tension to anchor. If the shooter has the correct set up at anchor using the back to hold the bow - he should focus more on the correct motion of "down and around" than squeezing muscle. The correct motion will incorporate the proper usage of muscle. 

I didn't dream this up. Got it from the USA Archery Performance and Women's Head Coach.


.02


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

subconsciously said:


> If you lead the draw with the draw arm elbow once coming off the "set up" you will notice a seemingly increase in back tension to anchor. If the shooter has the correct set up at anchor using the back to hold the bow - he should focus more on the correct motion of "down and around" than squeezing muscle. The correct motion will incorporate the proper usage of muscle.
> 
> I didn't dream this up. Got it from the USA Archery Performance and Women's Head Coach.
> 
> ...


Not seeing this clearly. Could you provide some additional detail?


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

EPLC said:


> Not seeing this clearly. Could you provide some additional detail?


Once the bow arm/draw hand and elbow come into the set up position - lead the draw focusing on as you are using the elbow to draw the bow. This will seem to put more focus on the back during the draw than the shoulder/bicep. This will possibly help in an easier bleed down of the shoulder/arm muscles used in the draw. I use the example of bleeding down a hydraulic jack while coaching "transfer".

Once the transfer has taken place and the back tension "steadily" increases and the shooter has a "go" on the execution of the shot, he will focus on moving the draw arm elbow "down and around" - not squeezing or tightening of the rhomboid for execution. If done correctly follow through to the draw arm shoulder will take care of itself. This process "I" would presume would allow for multiple "firing engines" to be used. My goal is the have the archer as relaxed as possible while maintaining an ever increasing tension in the back.

Not to say this is the only way - but a way. We are all different. This is how I coach it to my young archers. Once an archer is developed and progressing, they may choose another way - whatever works for them.

.02


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Not going to your wrong because it works for you, however I want as little movement as possible when at the go. At this point when I do add pressure fro squeezing my right scapula. Need to have shoulders down/level. Hence my metaphorical reference of a fell in a Col shiver going down your back.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

vito9999 said:


> Not going to your wrong because it works for you, however I want as little movement as possible when at the go. At this point when I do add pressure fro squeezing my right scapula. Need to have shoulders down/level. Hence my metaphorical reference of a fell in a Col shiver going down your back.


I agree. Where is your elbow going when you squeeze your rhomboid? Down and around. The amount of motion is the same from either method. It is just the semantics of how it is taught.

I is much easier for me to teach a 12 year old the motion of 'down and around' than squeezing a rhomboid for execution. 

Glad to see you are working with the kids. It is a pleasure.


.02


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

subconsciously said:


> I agree. Where is your elbow going when you squeeze your rhomboid? Down and around. The amount of motion is the same from either method. It is just the semantics of how it is taught.
> 
> I is much easier for me to teach a 12 year old the motion of 'down and around' than squeezing a rhomboid for execution.
> 
> ...


In total agreement with you. It was your elbow movement that thru me off for a minute. Do need the rhomboid to get the scapula going.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I can see this isn't going down the path I had hoped. I was looking to get some insight with regard to BT and holding, not execution.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

EPLC said:


> I can see this isn't going down the path I had hoped. I was looking to get some insight with regard to BT and holding, not execution.


Fine line between pre-loading the back and then just that little bit more squeeze to fire.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

I look at BT like a push up without locking the arms. When you hold yourself up your not being static in muscle tension. Your having to increase the tension ever so slightly to stay in that one position. Same with a bow. You cant become static. Once static it is nearly impossible to become dynamic again "correctly". If the BT does not increase the holding will go back into the draw arm. Then again I shoot Spirals. Once motion starts it does not stop till after follow though. Your either pulling or letting go. There is no in between.


.02


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

subconsciously said:


> I look at BT like a push up without locking the arms. When you hold yourself up your not being static in muscle tension. Your having to increase the tension ever so slightly to stay in that one position. Same with a bow. You cant become static. Once static it is nearly impossible to become dynamic again "correctly". If the BT does not increase the holding will go back into the draw arm. Then again I shoot Spirals. Once motion starts it does not stop till after follow though. Your either pulling or letting go. There is no in between.
> 
> 
> .02




But no matter how much you preload the release e until it has rotation. That is where you have to find how you can load your back muscles, be able to anchor, float, maintaining equalized pressure in both hands and shoulders and back. Like you said you cannot lock up or nothing will happen. This is where shooting close (5yards or less) comes in just practice drawing with tension applied to sides of back slowly and coming to anchor check float get a feel for what your back is doing. If you just til the arrow, you will nt get the feel. I use my clicker so when I get set to my anchor and build tension not really aiming yet. Once get to the click I begin my float and continue on to my rotation. It's getting to where you can hold the tension and maintain soft hands.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

vito9999 said:


> Like you said you cannot lock up or nothing will happen.


Tried this last night and like before nothing happened :mg:


vito9999 said:


> This is where shooting close (5yards or less) comes in just practice drawing with tension applied to sides of back slowly and coming to anchor check float get a feel for what your back is doing.


I Do this a lot but I need bridging work, need to include aim and execution at intermediate distances 10, 14yds(basement) then out to 20 at the shop. I can shoot all day up close and execute, no lockup. But thats me.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Maybe the use of tension and pressure is overplayed. Just went out and drew back to float (3 weeks post op) and held and let down. Not much pressure or tension to start and realm not much at the end. Just enough to hold.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> I can see this isn't going down the path I had hoped. I was looking to get some insight with regard to BT and holding, not execution.





vito9999 said:


> Fine line between pre-loading the back and then just that little bit more squeeze to fire.


I never gave thought to holding with back tension until I started using a hinge full time back in October of last year. It was after, when I got going with the hinge, that I got screwed up. I was already hold with back tension, so I added more and I "ran out of room," I guess you'd call it that. Hey, you got it going full bore you can't add to it.

So after getting that squared away and then this Post, I think most do hold with the back and don't know it. Bunches of people start shooting and you don't hear of back tension involved or some one telling of you need back tension to hold. And this back tension/hold thing made it's Rise to prominence with the posts, write-ups and articles of manipulating the hinge. IE, see Daniel Boone's "Backtension as told to me from Chance, Nathan and Eric Griggs."

I deleted and/or burned the vast majority write-ups and articles about hinges just because I was already doing things right and then I got to thinking and got screwed up.

Yes, you can hold with the back, fire with full across back tension and fire with the release side back half (John Dudley).


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## Mathewsex11 (Jun 18, 2011)

I found an older video of John Dudley on Carter Enterprises web site today was a good vid and to the point.

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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

*Deja vu all over again...*

Paul, 

If you look back in this forum, about once a year, usually about the beginning of the year, you query about "hold."

I don't know if there is any uncovered information left on the subject.

In its simplest form, Bob has already described how to engage the back at full draw and made the connection with expansion akin to recurve shooting.

The engagement of the back is transfer, or back tension preload as Padgett calls it. Get lazy on transfer and hold and execution become more erratic. You already know that.

The only thing I can add is I turn my bow shoulder into the bow during the draw as taught to me by a coach.

If one keeps a log and records "iterations" and results and not scatter them on an online forum, reflection is easy when performance degrades a little.
I used my log book at Vegas and it resulted in a paycheck so it does work...

Good luck.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Rick! Since you seem to be keeping track; did you notice I also have a thread on A.D.D. (Archery Deficit Disorder)?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

EPLC said:


> I'd like to limit this discussion to how the back is used in the setup and the hold. I've always had difficulty in this area and as a result use way too much arm and shoulder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWyhDe4fLYE&index=23&list=PLnGbQXzYstgHb2G0xO8CW3Rz7a5rQ26xi&t=100s

1:10 you can see what transfer looks looks like in an extreme case. Not even so much of a transfer as it is a process of two separate steps to get to the end point. I shot behind Marchella in Vegas in the practice room. This is an extreme example of someone manipulating their rhomboid. Crazy what she can do with her shoulder at full draw. She also has the best bullseye tattoo. 

In my opinion, many strong guys have a problem transferring to the back. Our biceps, delts, and traps are strong enough to get the bow back and hold at full draw...but, that does not lead to steadiness, especially as arrow count goes up. That's where the whole bone-on-bone and back tension comes into play. We're trying to employ as few moving parts and muscles as possible during the "hold" part of the process to lead to a steadier sight picture. That brings us around to griv's circle where:

FORM - HOLD - EXECUTION 

Are all interconnected and dependent on one another. 

When we hold steadier (like at short range) execution is easier...right? When we have good form holding is easier. When we have good execution it's easier to trust our form and hold.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

I try to set my bow side and keep it low through the draw, I draw back and try to position my release side scapula in behind and slightly lower than the bow side scapula. The release side scapula pushes on the bow scapula from the tension of the holding weight of the bow, when you position it right your pin should sit in the middle without too much effort, if your release side shoulder and scapula are too high it will tend to push the pin low and vise versa. I want to feel the push and pull of the bow but I don't want that tension to come from my hands or arms, I want that tension to come from that loading process that I did in my back. From there I focus on relaxing my hands and forearms and allowing the that tension to pull everything in a straight line, you should have your bones stacked in behind the bow on the front side and pulled inline on the back. The more you allow your bone structure to hold the shot the steadier you will be, the back muscles are much stronger and fatigue much slower than your arms and shoulders so you can use the back more to hold the pin.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

loujo61 said:


> I try to set my bow side and keep it low through the draw, I draw back and try to position my release side scapula in behind and slightly lower than the bow side scapula. The release side scapula pushes on the bow scapula from the tension of the holding weight of the bow, when you position it right your pin should sit in the middle without too much effort, if your release side shoulder and scapula are too high it will tend to push the pin low and vise versa. I want to feel the push and pull of the bow but I don't want that tension to come from my hands or arms, I want that tension to come from that loading process that I did in my back. From there I focus on relaxing my hands and forearms and allowing the that tension to pull everything in a straight line, you should have your bones stacked in behind the bow on the front side and pulled inline on the back. The more you allow your bone structure to hold the shot the steadier you will be, the back muscles are much stronger and fatigue much slower than your arms and shoulders so you can use the back more to hold the pin.




You described that so well. Same process I use (most of the time) .


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I think that there is too much discussion of back tension which confuses many shooters. I see shooters with lots of back tension who are not pulling with the back muscles. The point is not to have lots of back tension but to transfer from pulling with the arm to pulling with the back as part of the shot motion, and to do so at the right time. Once the bow is drawn and one achieves alignment of the drawing forearm with the arrow, the most efficient way to continue the drawing motion is to begin pulling with the muscles on the back of the shoulder and between the scapulae.

It is about the right motion at the right time, generated by the most efficient use of the muscles that effect that motion. Back tension plays a part but is not the goal in itself.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Len Cardinale told me that, "The tension of holding is achieved in the back and only in the back. All the rest, arms, hands, shoulders, etc. are just hooks and levers." Of course arms and shoulders are engaged at the beginning of the draw, but all the tension should be transferred to the back when you reach full draw.

Paul, you've started some great threads on AT. One of the old ones addresses stopping:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269232&highlight=Stopping

There is a lot of good information in this old thread. Taken with Len's comment, it gives you a good idea of how to use your back in shooting. It's also very much like Kisik Lee describes it. GRIV's dip-bang video also seems to agree with this. 

Your back muscles should be used for holding, aiming and executing the shot. A lot of people don't do this, including some top archers, since they use some finger manipulation, but it seems to work for a lot of us.

Allen


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

If you have a relaxed line of tension pulling straight back from the center of the target to your release then all you have to do is maintain that tension and look through the peep and line up and fine tune the rings (roundness) of the sight and pin to the target. Think of it like this, take your scoped bolt action rifle (that's sighted in) and put in a holder like a lead sled, take out the bolt and by eye look down the inside of the barrel and adjust the sled till the roundness of the barrel lines up with the target, now without moving it look through your scope, the cross hairs will be in the middle. Our eyes are very good at finding center and our back muscles are very good at maintaining even tension, learn to use them.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

aread said:


> Your back muscles should be used for holding, aiming and executing the shot. A lot of people don't do this, including some top archers, since they use some finger manipulation, but it seems to work for a lot of us.
> Allen


Switching to a hinge and finding ways to fail, I've wondered of if some aren't giving all or explaining in a manner for all to understand and this from set up of the hinge through execution. Or like Icaillo noted, " too much discussion of back tension which confuses many shooters." And he does give a description of something of what I've found.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have read through this thread a few times but haven't commented yet because I was working on something and had just started about the time this popped up. For the most part it has given me some really nice shooting and is becoming something I am really enjoying.

So

Basically I am taking a nice breath just before drawing the bow and I exhale it during the draw cycle and as I come to the wall I take a nice DEEP breath and apply my preload to the wall and right after I get the preload done I begin to exhale softly through my nose. This exhale is started before I take my thumb off the thumb peg and before I really even have my pin centered on the spot I want to hit and the exhale lasts the duration of the shot. 

Now

What I am finding is that this exhale is allowing me to execute with pure back tension without even trying to do it. I can feel my back muscles doing it and my rear elbow moving but I am noting having to do anything. I am simply exhaling and it is happening.

Differences 

The difference I am seeing is that I don't feel frozen in my rib cage, for decades I have been a deep breath holder. I have tried letting out air in the past many times but never really found a way to do it where it felt right. In the last week of working on this from time to time I will hold my breath like normal and the moment I take my deep breath and hold I can feel the entire torso area from my shoulders down to my hips lock up and become rigid. Then trying to execute with some back tension becomes a overly hard thing to force my body to do. In the past when i tried to let out a exhale I would wait until I had started my execution and then I would try and start the exhale and there was always a big pressure change that messed with my float. By starting the exhale very early before my aiming or even letting go of the thumb peg it seems to equalize and allow me to have a very nice float and feel the back tension execution just happen. 

I am very curious to hear any thoughts on the experience that I am having, I do not believe that I would be having this experience unless I was a preload type shooter. The preload gives a lot of pressure into the wall that is kind of spring loaded and just ready to be used and I think that the exhale is allowing my rib cage to collapse and get smaller as I loose air which is allowing the rear arm to move in the proper direction using the preload to its advantage without me doing anything. Like I said I can feel it happening but I am not doing it.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Padgett, I started this exact routine 2 weeks before Foley and it has shown how effective it is at getting a clean shot. I attest it to 2 things, one being as you mentioned in regarding tension engaging the torso. The 2nd being rhythm in the shot routine. In addition the oxygen levels induced will help with being steady. If my shot has not gone off by exhale I let down and restart as I have learned that shot would be marginal at best. My scores have gone up appreciably.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Learned something interesting today being conscious of staying in rhythm. I found I can make my release fire inhaling, thus explaining unintentional shots and some (most) flyers. As I come set and I exhale as I squeeze and get clean shot. Well normally I let down and reset, if my shot has not gone off. Since it was practice I decided to hold and inhale and bang my release fired. Wait a mini know that bad feeling. So I went through the routine again. Draw, inhale, get set. Anchor, hold tension, click, exhale.....empty lungs , inhale, bang. Did this 4 times. Now I don't recommend this a a way to fire as you need the oxygen to hold steady. But it is a clear diagnoses if your getting that shot that is just a bit. You know were everything was good until just before you shot. So properly engaged torso from a deep breath with back muscles engaged you need to be careful after the click.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Cannot edit from my phone, hope that makes sense.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Awesome, i was hoping someone had some experience with this. Sounds like you are having some success and that helps me to have confidence to commit for a few weeks and enjoy the process of learning something new.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

So, EPLC. 

To answer your question, in my experience when I am shooting at my highest levels over the last few years I am doing things with little to no pressure changes. Weather or not I was using a good amount of preload into the wall or just sitting in the valley either way I was doing things without changing pressures. In the last few years since I began using preload into the wall to me it has been way easier to have a very consistent pressure from shot to shot. Back before I used preload my good and bad days were way different and my bad days really sucked. Once I began using preload it was much easier to have bad and good days that were much closer to each other. 

Inside your shot routine any and all the little things that once you start your execution that happen mess with the pressures, if you are having to pause and wait or add some rotation or some tension or anything else you are going to have these pressure changes. So for me all of my training is based on how to do things smoothly without any of these things happening. 

For example this week here are the things that I am focusing on:

1. exhaling as i draw so that when I come to full draw I can take my final deep breath.

2. Start exhaling immediately as I am settling into the anchor and getting my nose to the peep.

3. Getting to conclusion which is touching my release hand to my shoulder as the bow fires.

Absolutely nothing about those three goals has anything to do with what is happening to my float or how things are running. I do have to admit that i am feeling my rear elbow travel in the correct direction that it takes for back tension to do the job and I believe that pure back tension is firing my hinge. I have not been running my usual firing engine that I enjoy using. That doesn't mean that some of its properties aren't doing their thing because I have done it so much over the years it has got to be there in some fashion. I am using a soft hand and am not overly clinching my hinge.

All and all I am really enjoying the feel of my float and hold on the target, I feel nice and strong and solid and am finding that it is easy to produce the same feel shot after shot. The few times my tension on the shot felt weird has been when I didn't take the same nice deep breath as I anchored. As long as I take that breath things feel very very much the same and run nicely.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Padgett said:


> I believe that pure back tension is firing my hinge.


Ron would be proud :smile:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

People are getting too wrapped up in the words used to describe the process and are losing focus on what the process really is. EVERYONE who draws a bow does so using their back--if they did not do this, their forearm would swing around and whack them in their mouths. That is just the way the body works when pulling weight and it is automatic. What is not automatic is making sure the shoulders do not rise up while doing the pulling (the reason for the deep breath before drawing) and transferring any remaining weight into the back once full draw is reached.

Once full draw is reached and you've transferred the weight to your back, all you have to do is keep applying the pressure that was used to get the cams to roll over of if shooting a recurve, to get the arrow to the clicker. Then without halting the process, gradually add to that pressure until the release rotates sufficiently to release the string or the arrow is pulled through the clicker and the string pulled through your fingers. 

If you get to full draw and find that you cannot increase pressure to actuate the release, then your DL is probably a little short. If like in Sonny's description, you get to full draw and you add pressure and keep adding pressure and nothing happens, then you're a little too long. 

Another thing that trips people up is their innate desire for immediate results and as a result they tend to rush the process. Start off using just a finger sling with your release and go through the process of hooking up, and increasing pressure until you're able to get the release to fire smoothly and consistently without giggling around with your fingers. Then progress to a string bow tied to your exact DL and do the same thing. These two steps will probably take a good month or two if you're honest with yourself. Then step up to a target and go through the same process with your bow using GRIV's 10 yard training. If at any step you find yourself cheating, go back to the previous step for a few days and reinforce the process before moving on.

It's really simple if the shooter can keep their minds out of the way and not go into over thinking it. :wink:


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## andyj2013 (Jun 3, 2013)

Good info


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Good one, Gail. :thumbs_up


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

I think the proper use of BT is all about getting in a repeatable strong relaxed position each time you draw the bow, because when you position yourself correctly behind the bow the aiming process gets easier. I want my sight picture to fire my hinge, I don't want to think about breathing or relaxing my hands to fire the shot, I want that all to be automatic. I'm lining up my sight picture and lining up my tension at the same time, when everything is pulled in a "steady" straight line - bang - off it goes.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Good post Gail!

Good to see you back. 

Allen


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

montigre said:


> People are getting too wrapped up in the words used to describe the process and are losing focus on what the process really is. EVERYONE who draws a bow does so using their back--if they did not do this, their forearm would swing around and whack them in their mouths. That is just the way the body works when pulling weight and it is automatic. What is not automatic is making sure the shoulders do not rise up while doing the pulling (the reason for the deep breath before drawing) and transferring any remaining weight into the back once full draw is reached.
> 
> Once full draw is reached and you've transferred the weight to your back, all you have to do is keep applying the pressure that was used to get the cams to roll over of if shooting a recurve, to get the arrow to the clicker. Then without halting the process, gradually add to that pressure until the release rotates sufficiently to release the string or the arrow is pulled through the clicker and the string pulled through your fingers.
> 
> ...


Only point of contention. I see plenty of bubbas using mostly arms and shoulders to draw and hold.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> Only point of contention. I see plenty of bubbas using mostly arms and shoulders to draw and hold.


Well, you don't need biceps to draw a bow. Me; Ruptured left bicep, partial ruptured right bicep. Using biceps they burning like hell.
Accident; shoulder separated, rotor cuff tore to hell, bicep detached, scapula detached. Near impossible to draw bow, 1 time one day and 2 times the next time I tried and tried my butt off. Asked surgeon and his reply; Biggest thing stopping that is your scapula is detached. You need this for the shoulder to work." Scapula is where?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, you don't need biceps to draw a bow. Me; Ruptured left bicep, partial ruptured right bicep. Using biceps they burning like hell.
> Accident; shoulder separated, rotor cuff tore to hell, bicep detached, scapula detached. Near impossible to draw bow, 1 time one day and 2 times the next time I tried and tried my butt off. Asked surgeon and his reply; Biggest thing stopping that is your scapula is detached. You need this for the shoulder to work." Scapula is where?


You also don't need a lot of forearm muscles to draw and hold a bow...yet, you'll see a lot of white knuckles out there squeezing the release. You "can" use the bicep to aid in drawing a bow; though its not the preferred method. Shoulders (delts, teres, and lats) can do most of the work drawing and holding, but again, that's not the preferred method of holding. Just watch all the "two stage" drawers and creepers.

I know all about bad shoulders too. Both rotator cuffs at different times. My left (bow) side floats because my AC joint never healed back together after a sports injury. Benefit is I can shoot a large range of draw lengths - can't shoot all of them well though!  I have significant loss of posterior positional mobility though that prevents a classic shoulder alignment. If I line my arm up with the shoulders...the bow side shoulder goes up - way up. So, I have a little more "open" triangle between the hands and shoulders than most shooters. 

On the release side, I've had 57 GH dislocations (first four were sports injuries and the rest incidental like putting a coat on, reaching into the cupboard and sneezing, or closing the passenger door from the driver's seat. The most recent dislocation was last Wednesday. I've been through it enough times that I was able to get back to shooting Sunday night. Drawing and holding isn't the problem for me...its the violent release wants to let my arm fall out of socket. 

Due to the injuries, my shoulders aren't symmetrical - my left side is much broader than my right.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes for the "violent release." My therapist was really concerned about releasing the draw weight all at once. Releasing all that weight is violent, like 55 pounds to 0 instantly.


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