# 45 lb recurve and 750 grn arrows?????



## hawkdriver55 (Sep 6, 2010)

I am getting into a recurve this spring and going to try deer hunting with it next fall. I have some arrows left over from a water buffalo hunt I did in 2014 that weigh in around 650 gns without a broadhead. I will be starting out with a 45 lb Martin jaguar elite with nothing more the whisker biscket. If I keep my shots inside 20 yards will the 45 lbs be enough to launch a 750 grn broadhead arrow combo well enough for deer hunting? Thinking of using some Magnus stingers I have laying around the house.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Hmmm…is it fair to assume those arrows were intended to be used with a compound bow?

Actually it’s a fairly common question, when people want to know if “the arrows they have are good enough” to shoot out of a particular recurve or longbow. And, especially with compound shooters, I’ll often present the same sort of question…”Is any arrow good enough to shoot out of your compound…or were you not particular about getting the right arrow?”

I’m not saying the arrows you have won’t work…and I’m really not bothered by other people’s choices or opposed to them trying different things…but I do know, with the amount of time we invest in practicing, the rewards are much greater when we have arrows that are optimally matched to our bows. This is just a universal truth/golden-rule in all forms of archery…from the most primitive to the most modern. Rick.


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## hawkdriver55 (Sep 6, 2010)

Yes, they were shot from a compound. They are 400 spine PSE Black Mambas cut at 29 inches.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

To get the spine right for the 45# Jaguar you'd need about 250-300 gr tip weight. That would make your arrow about 900+ gr.

Is that too heavy? Maybe. It will shoot... but it will drop like a rock. Only you can decide if it's too heavy for your purposes.

In addition, if you're shooting fingers the whisker biscuit is going to be working against you. A finger-style rest like this would be a better choice for fingers: http://www.lancasterarchery.com/nap-centerest-rh-arrow-rest.html

You can shoot the WB with fingers but like a crazy-heavy arrow the results will not really be encouraging. It's kind of setting yourself up to not really enjoy traditional.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

hawkdriver55 said:


> I am getting into a recurve this spring and going to try deer hunting with it next fall. I have some arrows left over from a water buffalo hunt I did in 2014 that weigh in around 650 gns without a broadhead. I will be starting out with a 45 lb Martin jaguar elite with nothing more the whisker biscket. If I keep my shots inside 20 yards will the 45 lbs be enough to launch a 750 grn broadhead arrow combo well enough for deer hunting? Thinking of using some Magnus stingers I have laying around the house.


What is your arrow setup now. Lancaster lists the PSE Radial X Weave Black Mamba shafts with a kinetic tube at 10.5 grains per inch, making your 29" arrows 304.5 grains bare. What are you using to get the weight up to 650 grains without a broadhead?

Otherwise I agree with Kegan, an arrow that heavy will be like shooting logs and a Whisker Bisquit is not the best choice for a stickbow.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I would have the sa question as Keeper, how did you get those arrows so heavy? My 60# bows are shooting arrows just under 700 grains, and they 300 spine with quite a bit of mods to get them that heavy. 400 spined arrows of that weight sounds strange to me. I don't know or understand modern bows, but I am curious as to how you acomplished that weight, and your set up you shot it out of.


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## cpnhgnlngct (Dec 9, 2010)

At one point I was shooting a 750 grain arrow out of my 53 lb recurve. I killed a lot of deer with that set up and always had the arrow stuck a few inches into the ground on the other side of where the deer stood.

However, the arrows were bareshaft tuned to my set-up ensuring maximum down-range energy.

If I were to choose between a heavy out of tune arrow versus a light out of tune arrow, I'd take the heavy all day. Heavy arrows mask a lot of tuning issues if you haven't went through the process of properly tuning your set up.

At a distance, I feel like you are better off using the search engine here and reading up on bareshaft tuning a recurve. After absorbing the information, invest in a matched set of arrows for your bow and start the tuning process.

A whisker biscuit is do-able with some mods. (I ran one on a PSE coyote for a little while, but that was before I knew how to tune a recurve) But they are less than ideal for finger shooters.

I am currently running a perfectly tuned 650 grain arrow out of my 50 lb recurve. I experienced great penetration this year and enough flatness in my trajectory to allow for a 25 yard effective range.

A tuned arrow is key here in the recurve world. I think your current arrows and rest choice will give you fits long term.


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## hawkdriver55 (Sep 6, 2010)

Easykeeper said:


> What is your arrow setup now. Lancaster lists the PSE Radial X Weave Black Mamba shafts with a kinetic tube at 10.5 grains per inch, making your 29" arrows 304.5 grains bare. What are you using to get the weight up to 650 grains without a broadhead?
> 
> Otherwise I agree with Kegan, an arrow that heavy will be like shooting logs and a Whisker Bisquit is not the best choice for a stickbow.


That 10.5 grains per inch is without the wieght tube in. With the wieght tube in it was up around 19+ grns per inch. I was shooting only 68.7 lbs compound IBO for 340 fps and 30 inches cruising along at 220 fps and got 8 to 10 inches of arrow out the other side of a water buffalo at 30 yards. The insert is a heavy stainless and the collar is another 10 grains. I was shooting 150 2 blade VPA.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

kegan said:


> To get the spine right for the 45# Jaguar you'd need about 250-300 gr tip weight. That would make your arrow about 900+ gr.
> 
> Is that too heavy? Maybe. It will shoot... but it will drop like a rock. Only you can decide if it's too heavy for your purposes.
> 
> ...


This...exactly.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

hawkdriver55 said:


> That 10.5 grains per inch is without the wieght tube in. With the wieght tube in it was up around 19+ grns per inch. I was shooting only 68.7 lbs compound IBO for 340 fps and 30 inches cruising along at 220 fps and got 8 to 10 inches of arrow out the other side of a water buffalo at 30 yards. The insert is a heavy stainless and the collar is another 10 grains. I was shooting 150 2 blade VPA.


Ok, gotch. 

I think your arrows might work to get a feel for your bow but unlikely to be ideal. You only need to be relatively close to correct for informal shooting. As long as the arrow doesn't hit the bow on the way past you can shoot them. A Whisker Bisquit is going to be problematic for that reason, the arrow will be flexing as it leaves the bow and passes through the WB (archers paradox and finger release).

The dynamic spine is what counts, and a heavy arrow makes your 29" .400s, which are already on the stiff side for your bow, behave even stiffer. It goes back to Mr. Newton, Force = mass x acceleration. Since you are increasing the mass above normal and the force from the bow remains the same, acceleration will be reduced. Acceleration is probably the key to how much your arrow will flex as it leaves the bow. Keep in mind that with stickbows there is a lot of horizontal flexing where with compounds it is often primarily vertical (which goes back to the clearance issues with stickbows and finger releases). 

This is a good video that shows what goes on with a stickbow and how important it is to get the correct dynamic spine for you and your bow (together you are a unique system). It's also easy to see why a WB isn't the best way to go.






I'd give your arrows a try, you don't have much to loose. In my opinion though their weight will only make the need for a heavy point even greater. If all that extra mass was in the front of the arrow inertia would add to the flexing, but since it is equally distributed along the whole length it's just dead weight.

I don't mean to rain on your idea of a heavy arrow, just that you might not get it with those shafts. Still, why spend money until you know? Order some heavy test point kits from 3Rivers and have at it...http://www.3riversarchery.com/screw-in-516quot-heavy-weight-field-point-test-kit.html

You could also play with their spine calculator and see what it shows for your setup...http://www.traditionalonly.com/SpineCalculator.asp?pass=2

This is a good link to what goes into matching an arrow to an archer and their bow. Tuning takes some consistency so you might not be ready for it right away but the link will explain a few things...http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Those are heavy arrows, but I have shot 534 gr from a 26 pound bow for indoor. I think the bows was a bit over 30 pounds at my draw and shot 138 fps if I recall. It shot real rainbows.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

i thnk the 400 series is stiffer than a .400 deflection. it is likely way too stiff, but might work out for screwing around and initial learning.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Another thing to note is that the Martin Jaguar, like the PSE Coyote, is very reflexed and tends to be squirrelly. I would recommend using them only for bowfishing or close range shots.

I also recommend the NAP Centerest or Centerest Flipper for that riser, as well as using an arrows spined for that draw weight (likely .500 or .600). Spine is much more critical for finger shooters. Pick your broadhead then work backwards to the spine and leave them long so you can cut them down during tuning. You can use a spine chart to observe the interplay between spine, arrow length, draw weight, and point weight. Most prefer a two or three blade cut-on-contact broadhead. The Magnus Snuffer and 3Rivers Woodsman are very popular.


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## Trimf (May 15, 2015)

Personally I'd buy a simple recurve style rest, either some Carbon express 150's or some Goldtip 3555's.
Front load them with 100g brass inserts or use 200g + broadheads and end up with arrows in the 480-500g range with good flight, flat shooting and plenty of penetrating power.
The arrows you have now will take lots of tuning, and still never really be just right and will fly like bricks.

JMHO,
John.


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## oldbohntr (Oct 12, 2012)

It's only a deer-for gosh sakes- and your first tradbow hunt for one at that(and I don't take deer hunting lightly, so don't even go there!) Serious shoulder issues are forcing me to 45# or less and I'm getting wonderful performance from arrows as light as 1916s on up to 2018s and 1920s....also from CE 150 and 250s(each set up a little differently of course.) I'm using a Border CH and your choice will vary. But, I have settled on either 200 or 175 gr heads, shoot and I consider my 530+ grain 20% FOC arrows substantial out of a bow of this weight. And, my trajectory is pretty darned flat. Yeah, maybe you CAN use your water buff arrows for this hunt, but why would you want to?


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