# Fast or slow



## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

How fast is too fast for field archery? I guess what I am trying to say at what point of speed do you no longer get any more return in score for the amount of speed that you have?
back in the 70's and 80's the speed was very slow around 235 to 240 fps and the top shooters where in the 556 range on the field round. In todays shooter they have high teck and
are shooting in excess of 270 too 280 fps and are shooting 559 to 560 on the field round but is that nessery to have that much speed for field archery?


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## bopo2 (Dec 7, 2008)

I prefer 275-280 I think it's a little more forgiving


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Don't forget, the scoring face was different back in those days. You'll find most are probably around the 270 area.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

archerpap said:


> Don't forget, the scoring face was different back in those days. You'll find most are probably around the 270 area.


scoring changed in 77.


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

I am not taklking about the old round shot before 1977 I am talking about the round that we shoot today. I saw Terry, Jack, Dean Frank Mike all shot in the mid 550;s with the slow bows.
Again the question is how fast is too fast and how slow is too slow, or were the old guys better archers that shot the slow bows than they are today?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

This has been beat well in this forum....if you search a little you will find a good thread from the past few months. 

I don't know what speed some are shooting now....but I know what Jesse and the likes were shooting speed wise a few years ago...and none were below 270. 

My highest scores the past yew years were in the 280-289 fps range. My PB and the 4 next 4 highest scores were all shot at 289. 

Right now I am shooting 283-285 fps after the shaft size swap to 530s. With 490s I'm right at 278. I won't shoot a setup slower then the low 270s and prefer to be around 280. 




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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Dang Hornet, I need to pick up 15fps. I'm at 268. but I only go by what AA says. I don't use a chrono either...LOL


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Speed really doesn't play as much of a role as suggested. As long as you are above 250'ish I would bet you aren't giving anything away to anyone else. You can miss fast or you can miss slow. Braden shoots around 254fps I think with his Conquest4. Chris White shot his Dominator at around 260fps. Same being said, I don't think a properly setup bow can be "too" fast to be accurate either. I shot my Invasion with my field arrows at around 305fps and it hammered arrows in there at all distances, same as my slower setups do.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

archerpap said:


> Dang Hornet, I need to pick up 15fps. I'm at 268. but I only go by what AA says. I don't use a chrono either...LOL


Well then your faster then 268. Unless you adjust the programs for the extra speed Hoyts get your always going to be faster then what it says. 


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Brown Hornet said:


> Well then your faster then 268. Unless you adjust the programs for the extra speed Hoyts get your always going to be faster then what it says.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope, no messing with programs. Load 2 marks and let it ride. As long as they go in the middle where the mark says its to be, I'm happy!! Takes to long to set our chrono up at the club, so I don't even get it out!!


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Slow archers affect my shooting more than slow bows. :noidea:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

archerpap said:


> Don't forget, _the scoring face was different back in those days_. You'll find most are probably around the 270 area.


No, the scoring face was changed to the metric face in 1977 and has been the same ever since. Before then, perfect 560's on the OLD target face (the bullseye was bigger, the aiming dot smaller, and the overall diameter of the entire target was SMALLER) were very, very commonplace...even at the slow bow pace of 195-220 fps. That is what forced the target change in 1977...two persons (I think) shot perfect 2800 scores at the NFAA National Outdoors (5 days, all 5 days were perfect 560's), and there were a boatload of 560s' besides those two guys, too! Prior to that, 560's at local shoots were like a drop in a bucket, most good shooters were popping them routinely, even with the SLOW bows.
By the LATE 1970's many people were shooting 556+ in tournaments, and many perfect 560's were shot in practice and were almost commonplace. I remember shooting a 554 with my Hoyt ProVantage Carbon Plus, with 1714 aluminum arrows and a whopping fast speed of 221 fps...and that was a bad day...as proven by my 4th place finish! My best ever was 557 hunter and 557 field; but I "blew" chances at 560 by making stupid shots on short targets, grrrrrr. With a bow shooting only 221 fps.

Terry Ragsdale shot the first ever perfect 560 hunter round in National NFAA Outdoor competition with a bow not shooting much over 230 fps...with shot in site marks, no clinometer, and no electronics. I think that was around 1990 or 1991. Joe Kapp duplicated that within a year or two.

It isn't about the SPEED, it is about the FORM and the replication of the shot at all the varying distances. Too much weight is being placed upon the speed of the bow, the mass weight of the bow, and all sorts of other things...when it really comes down to the shooter being "spot on". It has been done with speeds in the 220's; The first one was done in NATIONAL competition with speeds in the lower 230's.
Some say that excessive speed creates the phenomenon known as "fast misses", but...all this said and done, if the SHOOTER can handle the speed and be consistent with it, then fine; most shooters don't have the form or prowess to "handle the speed." This archer knows he is one of those, so I back 'er down to something I know I can handle; always have, always will.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

archerpap said:


> Nope, no messing with programs. Load 2 marks and let it ride. As long as they go in the middle where the mark says its to be, I'm happy!! Takes to long to set our chrono up at the club, so I don't even get it out!!


Both AA and OT2 recommend AGAINST using the chrono for sight marks anyways...read their instructions and recommendations! They do say that a chrono speed will help get you on target with the settings, but that the chrono method is NOT accurate enough!

OT2 offers the option of 5 site marks, and if you use that correctly and tell the program to "calculate", you are going to be amazed at how well things pan out!

"_ProActive Archery_" Section 5, Chapters 31-36 specifically addresses this issue. By the way, I might add that the book was reviewed by the creator of On Target 2, Larry Clague, and he paid very close attention to the Chapter about OT2, ha. Google 'ProActive Archery'; you'll find it.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Doubt if Jesse was especially speedy with the UL Pro 400's and 170 gr pt weight.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

mag41vance said:


> Slow archers affect my shooting more than slow bows. :noidea:


Ditto...

I also find that running from target to target affects my shooting in a negative fashion as does taking 15 mins per target...


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Tom your spot on with what was being shot score wise and arrow speed wise.....and that speed isn't needed. 

But what you tend to forget is that this is 2013 and while speed isn't needed it is pretty hard not to have a decent amount of speed unless your trying to shoot a slow setup or shoot ultra low lbs. it's 2013....the bows themselves with good outdoor arrows will produce good speed numbers just because that's what the bows do. 

I am not trying to get speed from my setup....it's just the nature of the beast I shoot. I hunt with speed bows to push a heavy arrow faster. But for target I shoot slow bows by today's standards...but they are blazing fast by yesterday's standards.... My VE is 40" with an 8" brace height...shooting 59.8 lbs at 27.75" the arrows I started out shooting this year weigh 344 grains and I get 279 fps or so from them. Not trying to get speed that's what I get...that's with a 490 spine Nano XR with 120 grain points. They don't shoot as tight as the 530s will so I am now shooting them but they are 15 grains lighter and obviously faster. 

My slower 370 some odd grain ACC don't shoot as well as my lighter arrows....I can drop down to a super slow setup and shoot an arrow as heavy as I shoot indoors to get to 230 fps but for what? 

No you don't need speed...but I am not going to shoot a stiff spine arrow that weighs a ton just to slow down a bow that doesn't need to be slowed down. If someone can't handle a VE shooting 280 fps with a mid weight outdoor arrow they aren't going to gain anything going to a slower arrow. 


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> Doubt if Jesse was especially speedy with the UL Pro 400's and 170 gr pt weight.


Well he only shot that setup for a VERY short period of time....and that setup is actually not very heavy...it sounds heavy because of the point weight but that shaft is pretty light at 7.4 grains. His total arrow weight was probably only about 10 grains heavier then my ACCs...I would bet he was probably VERY close to 270 fps. On 60 lbs I had no issue getting over 270 from my bow with the same specs. :wink: 


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Tom your spot on with what was being shot score wise and arrow speed wise.....and that speed isn't needed.
> 
> But what you tend to forget is that this is 2013 and while speed isn't needed it is pretty hard not to have a decent amount of speed unless your trying to shoot a slow setup or shoot ultra low lbs. it's 2013....the bows themselves with good outdoor arrows will produce good speed numbers just because that's what the bows do.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with you on this, Hornet...but today's shooters, especially newbies are hooked on SPEED, almost at all costs and think it is the SPEED that "gives them" more points and thus higher scores...you know, the line from "Top Gun"..."I feel the need, the need for SPEED." They just seem to think a faster bow...MORE faster...is the answer to most everything. Spending a fortune on a faster bow, lighter arrows, and other such stuff to get their SPEED up, when the money would be better spent with coaching and getting onto the range and being ProActive with their practice...and learning their equipment, how it shoots, and how THEY shoot under the less desirable conditions.

I'm still shooting the light poundage I always have, and yesser, my "speed" is indeed up from the 220's into the 270's...but I certainly ain't gonna intentionally try to go for MORE speed. I'll take what I get, but, if I think the bow is "overspeed" and I'm just not handling things well at that "speed", I don't hesitate for a minute to slow it down to what I can handle.

It is amazing in that I've had setups that I've increased arrow weight (spine or point weight) and GAINED some FPS because I hit a sweet spot with the match of the BOW to the Arrow. It isn't always all about getting as light of an arrow as you can...nope...we shoot compound bows...so why pick a poundage and by dang...THAT is the poundage...an spend hours, days, weeks, months...and money piddling around with this and that shaft, when a simple adjustment of the limb bolts can and does work wonders? Sometimes going down in poundage with a setup is all that is needed; and gotten a tighter gap in site marks (more speed), and way tighter groups...at a lower poundage.

Lots of variables....and of course we know the big one is shooting what you can handle, and handling what you shoot. Doesn't do one bit of good to shoot 300 fps if you have a mis-match...for yourself and the bow/arrow combo. "fast misses" are misses. Slow hits are...hits.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Macker (Mar 22, 2007)

Great info, Hornet and Tom. I always enjoy reading
your posts. I've gained a lot of knowledge from
you guys! Thanks.
Jeff


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Not a problem Jeff. Glad we (I) can help....wish others on here (AT) could have debates and discussions like Tom and I do and not act like fools 

Now if I could just get him to realize that the speed junkies still shoot foam and hunt :wink: 


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Not a problem Jeff. Glad we (I) can help....wish others on here (AT) could have debates and discussions like Tom and I do and not act like fools
> 
> Now if I could just get him to realize that the speed junkies still shoot foam and hunt :wink:
> 
> ...


Yep.
BUT...it is sure NICE to shoot my 47# peak weight Merlin Excalibur with ULPro 500 Gold Tip arrows and a 27 5/8" AMO drawlength at 276 fps...and I honestly figure that, for ME, it is TOO FAST! Added more tip weight to SLOW the bow down into the lower 260's; it shoots better for ME there. I could shoot that 47# bow for FOAM and not worry about needing 25 minutes "rest" between shots, hahaha. Bump it up some to 50# peak and I've got more than enough firepower to hunt with!
However, I know I can shoot 56 or more field targets in a day and not worry about being sore and stiff and not be able to repeat it again the next day!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Like I have mentioned before...I can go down in lbs a hair but it will be a very odd day that I shoot lower then 57-58 lbs. I have a hard time getting things to work right below that weight. I can go up to about 62 lbs but lower then 57 causes shot issues...

But I have no problem playing with everything else :wink: after shooting a full round with the 530s yesterday...they shot well...actually shot a higher score then I did the week before but they didn't blow me away and since I have 14 490s and only 9 530s I will probably stick with the "slower" arrows :wink: 


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Not a problem Jeff. Glad we (I) can help....wish others on here (AT) could have debates and discussions like Tom and I do and not *act like fools *
> 
> Now if I could just get him to realize that the speed junkies still shoot foam and hunt :wink:
> 
> ...


You talking about me, BH? I get tired of all the "speed is a must" and "a speed bow or no bow" mentality. I believe Field is a run what ya brung format. If you have a slower bow but practice enough, you will do well. If you're shooting 340 fps and your form is not right, you will not do well. Especially shooting 120+ arrows a day. I have yet to have to wait while shooting a Field course but have sat for what seems like forever on a 3D course. That will screw me up for sure. Maybe one day I will shoot a popular Field course but it is not that popular around here.

As of right now, I would not do well shooting a Field round. My first "official" practice since Louisville was last night. Took about 20-25 arrows to get to feeling right on a 40M target. Too much work, not enough time.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I do believe that NFAA rules are that the maxmum speed is 300 fps ( plus or minus 3% for chronnie variance) AND a maximum poundage of 80# peak weight.
NAA/WAA has a maximum poundage of 60 pounds and is strictly enforced.

Not exactly a shoot what ya brung format.

Here are the rules:

The NFAA has adopted the 300
ft. per second rule with a 3% margin of error as
measured by the official on site chronographs.
Each competitor understands and agrees that they may be required to shoot the desi
gnated tournament on-site chronographs. If after shooting 3 arrows through the chronograph after a
tournament round, the average speed exceeds 309 ft. per second, then that round score will be immediately disqualified, with no exceptions.
8.4 The NFAA maximum draw-weight of a bow shall not exceed eighty pounds (80) lbs.
NFAA Rules & ByLaws, p 61 for 3-D.

In addtion: on page 28:
The maximum peak draw weight allowed in NFAA competition shall be 80 pounds, with a
maximum arrow speed of 300 feet per second, with a variance of 3%. See By-Laws Article IV, Section D, Paragraph 1, Subparagraph 1.9.
Here is the link to ALL the Rules for Field Archery and rounds of the NFAA:
http://nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/1335-2012705-Constitution & By-Laws 2012, 2013.pdf 


field14 (Tom D.)


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Good gracious Tom....you couldn't have just said NFAA rules are 300 fps :chortle:

HD I wasn't referring to you buddy....just a basic statement. 

I hear ya though on the speed chatter and wars....it's worse then the what color strings should I get guys. Actually I take that back. I would rather listen to guys talk about speed and how to get this or that then guys that need help choosing string colors. You want me to come dress you in the morning also :chortle: at least with speed talks at times you can learn about tuning a bow. 

With field and the setups we shoot what some miss is what I tried to get across several times including in this thread....it's 2013 you don't have to try and get decent speed. You can get 280 fps or damn close to it from just about any bow without trying to get it and pushing the envelope...and it's shoot able. If its not something else is probably off or your looking for something else. 

Like I have said I am shooting the slowest bow Hoyt has offered in the past few years in a VE....my bow is 40" and has an 8" bh the way I have it setup. I shoot 59-60 lbs but I always have and do. My arrows are higher end field/FITA arrows and weigh 344 grains which is far from light...perfect spine match and a great FOC at 14%....I get 278-280 fps from it....the setup is VERY forgiving and stable. It's not "touchy" at all. Even when I changed to a lighter spine and lighter shaft and picked up another 6-7 fps the bow shot the same...maybe a little better with the slower arrows but that was ONLY because of spine not speed. 


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> _Good gracious Tom....you couldn't have just said NFAA rules are 300 fps_ :chortle:
> 
> HD I wasn't referring to you buddy....just a basic statement.
> 
> ...


Hey, Hornet, I know it, you know it, but saying that the rule was 300 fps may have been contested...so...get out the RULE BOOK...state what it says, and give 'em the link so they can verify it.

the old CYA syndrome, cuz even then, some won't believe it anyways. Probably flash-backs from too many classroom experiences of pupils not paying attention or thinking "rules are for fools", which was a very common occurrence; all too common in fact...they are "special" and the rules apply to everyone else...so...push 'em, break 'em and force the issue...maybe they'll change the rule(s) just for me if I raise enough hell.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

For a BHFS guy like me, speed helps tighten up the pin gaps. While I will not sacrifice proper spine and a decent FOC for speed, as BH has said, with today's equipment you don't have to.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I like my field bow to be about 255 fps at 48 lbs and i have a 27 amo draw that is what works the best for me


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

I have never gotten a valid chronograph reading for my setup. I have a chrono but the numbers are very erratic whether shooting in the basement (with incandescent lights) or outside. OT2 gives a speed based on my inputs and that number doesn't match the numbers I get out of the chrono. So I'm not too worried about what speed my arrow is flying. The main thing I need to check is draw weight as FITA has a 60# limit. I generally shoot 54-57 lbs. My shoulders start to have problems from the repeated draw cycle especially on the 120+ arrow days if I run 58-59#. 

I shoot a '11 Dominator Pro with ME cams, 28 1/8" DL (26 3/8" true DL), X10 420 Pro Tours (thanks, Jim) set at 30" (I didn't cut them down right away, are a bit stiff per OT2 and they fly fine). The X10's are tough, too. Shot one thru the bottom rail in our 2x4 stands (had a :doh: moment when I moved the sight up one set of holes, adjusted the scope, realized I wouldn't have enough travel for close shots, returned to the original setting but DIDN"T readjust the scope). Hit the board about 1/2" from the bottom, broke the 2x4 and stuck in the mud below and behind the stand. No bend, no cracks, still shoots fine...


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Hey, BH. I saw a post where you were looking at putting a Bearfoot ATR on your bow. Did you ever get one? Did it work out as advertised or is it more hype than substance?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

No I didn't get one....all of the hype around it for better accuracy and what not are bunk though. 

All it will do is make a bow tune more down the center and move your pins over which is what I am looking for. I'm getting one made by RatherB :wink: I'm really just looking for one like the old Hoyt metal curved rods. 


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Thanks, BH.


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