# Archery Research



## Rob (Aug 11, 2002)

A new division of PSE? Guess we'll have to wait 16 days, 3 hours... to find out 

Rob


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## hotshoe (Oct 12, 2002)

I heard it was Matthew's new name.


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## Rob (Aug 11, 2002)

Hi hotshoe,

I did a "whois" search (I used http://www.swhois.com) on archeryresearch.com and this is what the whois record states:



> Whois Result
> The listed administrative, billing, or technical contacts of "archeryresearch.com" may TRANSFER this domain to NetNation's name server and set up a hosting account.
> 
> [whois.directnic.com]
> ...


It's PSE, not Mathews, that's behind this new site.

Regards,

Rob


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Some information from the PSE website

I just recieved the new Inside Archery trade magazine (dealers only). On page 45, is a picture of the new bow from Archery Research (PSE). While it is a very well machined, attractive bow, it still looks like the Mathew's parallel limb and Bowtech's vertical force technology. Tall riser, short limbs at a high angle with a single straight line type cam. It looks like it will reduce hand vibration but to me is this an evolution? 
Now,after looking at the Archery Reseach web site, it says "Experience the evolution." "The best thing to happen to archery since the compound bow." I am very sorry, but it still looks like a compound bow. I am sure it is probably a very smooth shooter, but it does not seem to me that it will live up to the excessive hype and especially after we hear the cost. We, as dealers in this great sport, are worried about the "Cry Wolf" advertising. This industry needs a real shot in the arm if it's going to grow. PSE is the manufacturer of some of the finest bows in the world, but I do not care, nor do my customers, for unnecessary HYPE they experience as the bottm line. The bottom line is a more accurate shooting bow then what they already own. That is what sells new bows and keeps my customers 



According to an inteview with Pete Shepley in "Inside Archery", "Archery Research" is a separate brand from PSE yet owned by them as in Browning. They are a pro shop only line and are available in three models in 31, 34, and 37" ata. Speed wise they are rated at 305 fps @ 70% let off w/ an 8" brace height. 

They are the most attractive bow I have seen in a long time with a very sleek riser, a large idler wheel that has a very hi-tech look, and Break-up camo. The cam dubbed the "ram-cam" looks like the "bullwhip" cam that PSE no longer uses. They do indeed look like a Mathews or Bowtech bow, however, they are more attractive in appearance than either of those. 

Since this was all in a trade magazine I see no problem posting it now. There you have it.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2003)

*CenterX Have you seen the Pricing?*

CenterX,

In response to your post you seem to be discounting the Archery Research bows as a "me too copy" before you've actually had the oppprotunity to look at them in person, much less shoot one. I was in camp in IL with a member of PSE's upper management team a few weeks back an saw these's bows, if you're attending the ATA you are going to be blown away (especially when you look over the dealer program) you'll be able to offer your customers the very best quality at a unbeatable price. And thats not hype, I've seen the program and your going to love it. If you're looking for a "shot in the arm" for your business and your customers attention I'd stop by their booth the very minute that the show opens and try to secure a protected territory. Good luck


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that Flash sucks. While doubtless it "adds functionality", it also hides content if you don't have the required plugins. (I do, but have a lot of friends who use older computers and thus CAN'T install all that a site might require.)

Note to designers: Just because you can see it, doesn't mean everyone else can. Put a nice little disclaimer at the bottom saying something like "Best viewed on MY computer".

Rant over.


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## hotshoe (Oct 12, 2002)

I went to my dealer today and saw the article in the Inside Archery magazine. It looks like a pretty awesome bow. My dealer says that he hopes that they will have a shooting booth at the ATA show, so that he can test it out. He says that he will call me from his cell at the show to let me know how it is.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2003)

*Archery Research Booth at the ATA show*

Archery Research will have a shooting booth at the upcoming ATA show, I've also heard that there will be a lot of promo items on hand as well.


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## >>>---dg--> (Dec 28, 2002)

Hey Guys, Is this the photo you all are talking about?


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

*archery research*

it is not mathews or anyone elses creation but pse's. i have heard it's a new high tech set up for archery and both cams and different bows. that is all i know but it's not mathews thank god
rob k


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## Silverfox (Aug 12, 2002)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

Got that right. Looks like the Legacy MaxCam.

Still, 305 with an 8" brace height isn't bad...


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## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

*PSE all the way*

That riser screams PSE all the way from one limb to the other.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Sorry Fella… none of them are my comments. I cut and pasted these from post on other websites in order to share some information on this board.

Heck I like it … bottom line if you like this kind of technology and you like PSE then shoot it … If you like Mathews version then shoot there’s … if you like Martins version then shoot there’s … if you like Bowtechs version then shoot there’s…

Or ( not directed at you Fella) You can dissect it call it names trash the company (whoever it is) that brings yet another bow to market for you ( the archer) to have a choice of shooting..


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## grandpawrichard (May 29, 2002)

Everyone knows that I'm a PSE fan, I own 4 of them, but for me, these new bows don't look like anything that I would be shooting.

The 37" A to A looks good, the 8" brace height looks good, I like the idea of the cutouts for vibration reduction. What I don't like so far is the draw weight options, I like a little lower draw weight, I also don't really care for the looks of the riser. It might look better in Competition colors , if they are going to offer them.

The proof will be in shooting them! You can't really judge a bow from a photo! The feel has to be there, as does the performance and durability. I guess I'll just have to wait until I get my hands on one to try it! I'll also have to take a look at the Warranty and the Price to see if it's a direction that I want to go!

Gotta hand it to PSE though, at least they are trying to give us another option to try!

Dick


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

*if i'm not mistaken*

the cam you call a copy of the mathews cam is actually a cam that pse put out and mathews copied from them. it was i believe the bull whip cam that pse put out and mathews copied. everyone has copied and changed little things to call it their invention but it looks likt eh cam was updated from it's original version
rob k


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2003)

*Here is some REAL SCOOP!!!*

The bows are dippen in NEW Mossy Oak Break-Up

The bows have been tappeda to allow NV's on the backside of the bow. So for you NV nuts, you could put then on front and back of the bow ( But I don't think you will put any on because the bow shoots so GOOD without anything)

It also has multiple sight mounting holes, that will allow the shooter to set the sight and optimize the sight window. This will allow you to keep your sight pins in the center of the sight, which will also allow for faster target acquisition. There is a list of benefits to this but I am just too lazy to go into now.


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

*Large Profit Margins???*

I take it that is an ad sent to dealers. I can't imagine PSE posting that to the public with the words "Large Profit Margins" in it. I guess they are trying to copy Mathews, Hoyt, & Bowtech for the most expensive bow


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

*Give that man a cigar!*

THANK YOU Double Lung Em!

I'm glad someone else caught that little phrase.


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## Double Lung 'Em (Dec 19, 2002)

*Profit Margins*

I would be curious what the actual cost of a bow, hoyt, mathews, or bowtech is? I would wager $150-$175 (includes all cogs, excludes marketing, g&a, etc.) sold to a dealer for $450-$475 and sold to customer for $600-$675

The industry I work in it is amazing how little our product costs us to make, and then to see it retail for 8-12x what it costs to produce, makes you sick if you think about it.


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

Some individuals would have you believe that the poor shop owners are living in poverty. Not knowing where their next meal is coming from. They probably have to eat grass and sticks just to survive.  

Maybe next time someone mentions buying online the defenders will think twice before they try to shame the person into paying the "_large profit margins_ " of pro-shops.


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## Shakes.602 (Nov 13, 2002)

Welcome to the Real world of Big Business. Thats the way the world turns: Build 'em cheap, sell 'em high. Just dont try to make the years profit off of MY bow, ok?? hehehe I am a PSE fan myself, and I dont really care for the new bow.
I am a finger shooter, so short AtoA doesnt impress me much. If thats your "Thing", go for it. Great Warranty & Customer Service DOES impress me.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I like the grip, very thin. The parallel limb geometry is catching on with more manufactures and we all will have more choices and soft shooting bows. This is no "fad" that will dissapear anytime soon, it works.


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## UltraGP (Sep 19, 2002)

The Bullwhip cam was a cam option for the PSE Durango, which looked exactly like an MQ-1. MQ-1 was in the market place before the bullwhip cam or the Durango.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Well lets put it this way. In Australia I sell Apple computers. On the low end deals that sell for around $1895 I make about $50 profit. On the machines that sell for $4000 I make about $300 profit. With bows I believe that a $1500 bows makes about $400-$500 profit. In my opinion that is fine, you need to make money to survive and I have no drama with delaer making money. However, I also don't want to hear complaints about how little money is in archery gear, there is more than computer retailing.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Profit Margins*

Yea Marcus and that guy who buys the $1895 computer with the $50 profit expects you to move in with him for 90 days and teach him how to use it too. Most people who have not been in business for themselves haven't got a clue of what a fair profit margin is. When you start adding it all up; taxes, insurance, utilities, tied up capital, interest on inventory loans, payroll, vehichles, maintenance on facility, etc. etc., it makes you wonder what they do with that gigantic $200 they make on a high end bow and $100 they make on a low end bow. But thats ok, its the same people who complain about the price who will scream the loudest when they no longer have a shop within 150 miles to go get some nocks or serving thread.
Jbird


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Just a question...What kind of car does your dealer drive. Mercedes...Cadillac...or an 84' Chevy...I'm betting the latter. Who do you all think is gettting rich in this sport...Jenning filed chapter11...and they are one of the biggest companies in archery. Noone is getting rich at your expense. If you want, open up a shop for yourselves, sell at a magin that you feel is appropriatte. If the current dealers are abusing you, your lower prices should have them in trouble in no time...but, maybe they know something you don't.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Yeah, the cost of the materials in a modern bow is only a small percentage of it's "value". 

The manufacturer has to pay for hundreds of thousands of $$$ of CNC machines, limb-making machinery, anodizing, painting, rent or lease or mortgage on a 20,000 square foot building, salaries of hundreds of employees, warehousing, shipping, research and development. Marketing. Sales costs. Stuff that "falls off the back of the truck". Insurance. Taxes.

And no profit on year-end sales to clear out the old stock for new. 

("So don't produce so much that you get stuck with inventory", you say? Then don't whine when your new 2003 model isn't on hand and delivered the day after you order it.)



Oh, and lawyers. You need to pay lawyers for all those patent-infringement suits going on that everyone has "heard about from a guy down at the pro shop..."


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

I got no problem with someone wanting to charge for the "large profit margins".

Just don't expect EVERYONE to pay it. 

What I do have a problem with is every time someone asks about buying arrows online or whatever else they might need on one of these sites, there are a lot of people that use guilt to make it sound like the shop owner's kids won't be able to get braces or their pets are gonna starve to death because I want to buy a pack of broadheads from Cabelas.

I'm a big boy and know how business works. I understand they need to make a profit. But when someone tries to pi$$ on my head and tell me it's raining................. yeah, I got problems.  

This is just my OPINION and I know it don't mean squat. lol


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## RoAD KiLL (Jan 3, 2003)

Marcus said:


> *Well lets put it this way. In Australia I sell Apple computers. On the low end deals that sell for around $1895 I make about $50 profit. On the machines that sell for $4000 I make about $300 profit. *


 OMG !!! I sold 17 low end PC's this year making $150 on each one. Guess you need to find good suppliers.  

I don't mind if my local Pro shop makes $100 on every bow.


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

Marcus' point isn't do do with PC's - it's Apple, and you can't build your own Macintosh. You have to get the case with motherboard, graphics, RAM, etc from Apple and that's IT. You want extra graphics, go buy the card. But you can't decide you don't want the graphics card that comes with it in order to save money.

Ain't life great?


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## Oxford (Jun 26, 2002)

I would be careful about running that ad with the headline, "A new age in archery." I tell my clients not to over-hype their products because you guys will eat them up. Sure you want to build excitement, but there are other ways to do that besides beating the drum with extravagant hyperboles.


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## Pinwheel 12 (Jun 11, 2002)

Pro-shop dealers are NOT making huge profit margins. Fact is, there are so many dealers that everyone plays "cutthroat" and most dealers are lucky to make 20% on a bow nowadays. Don't forget, they also have to eat, pay overhead and staff, and liquidate all of the "obsolete" stuff every year for sometimes less than what they paid for it. It ain't all a bed of roses, I can assure you. 

This bow has some good lines, but the rest seems "ho-hum" to me, and nothing we haven't seen before, just in a different wrapper. Still a conventional solocam, (yawn) still in the 31-37 inch range, still the same old thing. Doesn't get the blood boiling, sorry. Need something NEW and FRESH, IMHO.

Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

I wonder when PSE will come up with there own designs and stop copying everyone in the industry especially Mathews. This is pretty similar to the bull whip cam that was on the Durango which they got sued for by Mathews, the should have just named the Durango the PSE MQ1 and the should name this new on the PSE Legacy. Come on Pete lets see some innovations here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## RoAD KiLL (Jan 3, 2003)

IRISH said:


> *I wonder when PSE will come up with there own designs and stop copying everyone in the industry especially Mathews. This is pretty similar to the bull whip cam that was on the Durango which they got sued for by Mathews, the should have just named the Durango the PSE MQ1 and the should name this new on the PSE Legacy. Come on Pete lets see some innovations here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *



ahahhahahahahhahahahha  

Gotta Love them TROLLS !!!


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

If only Irish new that PSE did not get sued by Mathews: Get the facts right before you try to start a bunch of mud slinging


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

Mikie Day, Sorry to tell you but the whole reason that PSE stopped making the Durango is becasue of Mathews so I think you need to get your facts straight. Face the facts PSE has not produced a quality bow since.........well actually they have never produced a quality bow. Its pretty funny that every new bow that comes out on the market is a copy of Mathews design. Look at the PSE Lightning cam is is an copy of the Mathews Max Cam just not nearly as good. The only different is that it works on a module system. Look at Hoyt they finally went away from the rest of the industry that follows Mathews and innovated something new. I think it is about time for some other companies to follow. I am sick of seeing the same bow basically from every company and they are all a copy of the Mathews!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

IRISH, say what?!?! 

And here I thought my '99 Durango was made in response to Mathews Conquest line. I didn't even know the MQ1 was available in '98. My bad, here I've been thinking PSE copied the first Mathews riser design. And to think they only offered the Durango for what, 4 years or so (lets see, '99, '00, '01, and I believe '02, yep, 4 years) having only replaced it recently w/ the Primos STL (which is still essentially an improved version of a Durango for all intents and purposes, say maybe a cross between the Durango and a Quantum). Seems like its still around, live and kickin', but I could be mistaken!

I will say though, for those of us that are not so adept at machining, at least the LC that came on my Durango already had a draw stop/peg built into it and I didn't need to drill, tap, and insert my own pin. Oh yeah, I forgot, no one using earlier versions of single cams ever did that kind of stuff anyways  , lol!

Sorry if I got any of my chronology or terminology wrong on when the MQ1, etc. was introduced. I don't follow the Mathews very closely, nor could I find anything on their website regarding "past catalogs" so I could look it up myself. I know, my bad again, lol! 

Not trying to detract from the Mathews line, in my opinion they do make good quality bows, some interesting innovations (particularly like the idea and rationale for the Genesis for example) as well. Just not sure why you're getting so worked up about it, shouldn't matter to you as it sounds like you're a diehard Mathews fan(atic)  anyways.

Anyways, just having fun with this one, everything being typed w/ a big grin/smile on my face, fyi so no one will mis-interpret anything!

>>-------->


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## RoAD KiLL (Jan 3, 2003)

IRISH said:


> * Face the facts PSE has not produced a quality bow since.........well actually they have never produced a quality bow. Its pretty funny that every new bow that comes out on the market is a copy of Mathews design. I am sick of seeing the same bow basically from every company and they are all a copy of the Mathews!!!!!!!!!!!! *


 Obviously he is trolling and only registered to this forum to do so  



Getting back on topic.....Less than 10 hrs to go until Archery Research launches their new website


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

Yes I agree that Irish or I - rash is just trying to start a ford / chevy fight: well too bad for his fingers: and he needs to fire who ever is giving him the fact about a law suit that never happened. Irish go to the pse web site and post about the law suit that never was/and read the replys: If you dont then it proves that you are just living in your moms basement and have nothing better to do (just kidding) sorry for that statement.

Have a good day Irish the mathews clone


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## Thebowguy (Jan 4, 2003)

Mathews and PSE sent letters to dealers dismissing all the rumors.Thats how out of hand this rumor of a lawsuit was.There was controversy over the cams but it was settled.

And to tell the truth I really think he does live in his Moms basement.That's funnier than you know.


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## fatman (Dec 15, 2002)

So whats the go with this archery research site???????? I went there expecting the greatest thing in archery since the compound bow, but all I get is the the countdown which is now negative 1 day, 16 hrs and 44 min. 
I hate anticlimaxes

FATMAN


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## RoAD KiLL (Jan 3, 2003)

What the hell????  

The clock was counting down, now its counting up. 

At this rate we'll never see the site launch


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

*it's funny*

pse the oldest company in the market, never sued by anyone. the battle over this cam or that cam has been on going for a long time even before the mathews bow was brought about. the first one cam was a martin made bow. and since hten the single cam has been reproduced over and over. it's the whole deal now with darton and hoyt and the cps and cam and a half.everyone that has produced a paralell limb has copied from everyone else and each has made their own improvements to their bows and have done one or two things different to get by all the patent suits.it all comes down to which company you want to support or at least that is what i thought. i have shot many bows and like different things from each company. one of these days one of them is goign to make the ultimate bow and when they do we will all jump on that bow companies band wagon. but as for now the only law suits i have heard about have been on here and so far i haven't seen anything on the news and i haven't heard anything about the ultimate bow that everyone else will try to copy. just shoot what you like and enjoy what you shoot. that's the way i see it anyways.
rob k


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

They can't even launch an internet site properly. Boy, I am just filled to the brim with confidence and anticipation in this new archery research venture! I suddenly feel the need to part with a massive amount of cash to buy whatever they are selling!

Note to manufacturers: If you are going to launch something, at least launch it when you $&£*^% well SAY you will!

Edit before posting - I've not got anything against AR, just the fact that they can't even deliver a site. Martin had their 2003 line on the Net about 24 hours after they were released, and had told us, the site will be a bit after the release. Same with Hoyt. Why can't this lot?

Grr. Calm down.


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

I could not believe the AR site would open before the show.

Also if anyone is looking for a total different bow that no one has copied look at the new Oneida Black Eagle and the pro series. 

I am hooked/quite/fast/smoooooooth


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## Donhudd (Sep 21, 2002)

*Archery Reasearch*

Either this is some kind of scam or a totally inert advertising ploy. Either way I consider it a rather PSE thing to do the the readers of this forum.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

i'm with doc
most local dealers at least live in the same towns we do. the tax money they generate helps our town, not support an out of town outfit, albeit if the local guy is so high in prices competition dictates how things flow.
however it has been my experience that the local guy is usually pretty competitive and if i have a problem he has to look at me everyday knowing i have that problem whereas the mail order company does not, not saying they won't take care of you well either.
furthermore i can't see all my friends at the mail order place like i can at the local pro shop. they support your local tournaments with DONATIONS and help you out with your technical problems without having to ship your stuff back and forth and waste lots of money on phone calls and time arguing with someone on the end of the other line that doesn't know squat about archery because the big companies try to hire the cheapest labor they can find so you have a kid that knows pretty much nothing trying to you how.....
the local shops really don't make that much money. if you double your price on arrows that really is not that much markup to make up for bad checks or items that don't sell, or time spent on with customers(hours sometimes) trying to get everything just right. most places charge you by the hour anymore.,ore than likely not your local shop. if the only reason you are buying a bow is for money savings than you are cheating yourself of aome good service in the long run. pretty soon there won't be a small guy down the street andwhen the big guys decide they aren't making enough millions where are we left to go? if a guy sold 250,000 a year and only makes 10% profit overall at the end of the guys that ain't much to live on especially if they have kids. it is so expensive to be in business wth so many payroll taxes, the social security for in stance that is deducted from your checks the employeer has to double and that is 12.4% in my neck of the woods! then you have unemployment insurance and workmens comp and and and...
whew..not trying to be gripey , but like the old saying goes walk a mile in someone's shoes ..you know..
please support your local guy as much as possible if they are a turd than go somewhere else because if they can't be nice to you no matter how convieient they are it is not worth it either. butmost places i have ever been to at least smile and act like they are glad you are in their door nad not on the phone to cabelas or somewhere
else, believe me they need every dollar they earn....


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## Cantgetright (Dec 20, 2002)

Well it's up and running


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## Cantgetright (Dec 20, 2002)

Personally I think the countdown was more advanced then the website....they probably will make a great bow but as far as advertising goes they could use a little help in that department.
No world changing event bacause all the major players have bows with virtually no recoil or handshock unless this company has made one with 0 vibration and handshock it's no huge advancement...Ahhh you just have to love marketing!!! Oh well back to reality.


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## Silverfox (Aug 12, 2002)

Man we had to go through all that crap just to see another clone, talkabout anticlimax


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## bowcellar (Jan 9, 2003)

*Archery Hype*

silverfox,
You're on target! This all the archery manufactures have to offer. When are engineers going to start thinking outside the box. Solving problems of riser torque,arrow spining, bow tuning, and nock travel. Checkout Archery Business, Jan-Feb. issue on page 111. Improving Your Skills by Norb Mullaney (guru of bow testing equipment). Norb writes an excellent article on "Understang Nock Travel". Norbs quote" Theoretical analysis strongly argues that the ideal arrangement for optimum dynamic action during launch is obtained when the nocking point follows a perfectly straight path as it travels from the full draw postion to brace hieght. Any deviation in either the horizontal or vertical plane introduces efficiency losses,promotes arrow shaft bending, oscillation, and may instigate instability". PSE, Darton, and Mathews have addressed this problem by designing cams that will reduce, not eliminate, this tuning problem. One company has actually solved this problem and has patented device contains the arrow and produces straight nock travel. This produces consistency and accuracy. I did a keyword search on Accurest and looked at their web site. I'm very impressed with what I saw. They are solving problems that bowhunters have had for years. I've seen this company at the Madison, Deer and Turkey Cassic, for the last 5 years and passed it off as a gimmick cocking device. I ordered one this week for my store. I put a sight on it, zero it at twenty yards. My only problem with it was I robin hooded several arrows.
This is what I exspect from the archery industry INNOVATION! I saw no new blood in archery. No gun hunters taking up archery because of all the tuning and accuracy issues. People have very limited time to practice because we're trying to keep a roof over our heads and give our kids a better life than we have.
Well, I'll get off my soap box.

PS: Support your archery dealer because he is their to support you!


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

Oneida is thinking out of the box.


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## Silverfox (Aug 12, 2002)

agree with you whole heartedly bowcellar, The anticipation was not worth the end result, when a co. says groundbreaking and innovative I expect just that, not an imitation of whats already available, These may be really good bows but they sertainly dont live up to the hype, Methinks they are trying to sell to dealers rather than archers.


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## AZPRO (Jul 25, 2002)

*Well, off course the knit picking has started,*

I keep hearing, Need something new, I need something different, and we decide to start a high end branch of PSE where everything that 3 tournament shooting engineers and several bowhunters could possible want out of a hunting bow that would be satisfactory to both sides. WE target archers wanted a bow that was fast, forgiving and extremely accurate, We didn't care about vibration or noise as much as the hunters did for I have yet to see a target jump the string. The bowhunters wanted fast, quiet,non vibrating, and light. With the exception of Hoyt or Bowman Bow, I personally was not impressed with the finished look of the bows in the market. So we decided to combine all our thought and wants into one.
The AR bows are very well finished, very well thought out,and very well rounded.
The Cut outs are in themselves a innovation, Ever hear of a caged riser? Well here you have got one. This bow has no jump what so ever when it it shot bare. I designed the PSE Supra and I think that is as close as I want to a great target bow in geometry and it feels like a target bow and reacts like one. The Ar's have the smoothest feel that Whipped cream is the closest thing I can compare it to. The vibration test have shown the vibration doesnt localize in the usual grip area instead is spread out through the limb pocket area.
the grip is another great aspect of the riser, instead of having the flat planar surface in which the ttop of your hand rests against, it is contoured to the human hand. extremely comfortable.
Mathews legacy showed the use of old technology(Delta V) in the string area (rubber string bumpers), to bring about a extremely nice feeling bow, that coupled with the laid back limb (browning Bushmaster 1975, Rigid Bows 1976) brings about the feel modern bowhunters accept where as they didn't fly as well with the old.
We have taken the limb angle even farther and still kept a fast bow and it is very shootable. 
So Even though I have been involved with AR, I am very much excited about the Pamela Anderson of Bows, Looks good and feels great.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I'm sure AR will sell a bunch to the PSE guys and then we'll hear about how good it feels and shoots! Only thing is a lot of us have had bows like this for about a year. That said I like the limb angle , which is where IMO the market is heading. Good luck.


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## Silverfox (Aug 12, 2002)

Hey azpro noone is doubting the bow will work, We have been shooting this design for some time now and it has well and truly proven itself, I mean no bad to the bow, simply saying that the hype does not live up, there is nothing new or innovative here, credit to pse for taking up a proven formula but dont tell us it is cutting edge.


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

OK, is anyone getting anything OTHER than the counting upwards clock, and an announcement saying it's an innovation to rival the compound, or something? Because I'm finding this kinda depressing - check the site to find out it's the same as always.


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## Cantgetright (Dec 20, 2002)

Like I said I'm sure the bow will be top shelf but I think the advertising is what took some of the luster of the equipment...when you make bold statememts folk want to see the pudding....with AR Bows it's not what you see that's important but the feel of the bow....I can understand that but advertising is visual and we cant see the innovation as stated...I guess we will just have to shoot one and see if for us it's true innovation or advertisement....hey theres always room for more great equipment and I hope AR ranks right up there with the others!


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

It’s not new… it’s not innovative …. Same old thing… 

Well…

This style of bow has only become in vogue over the last 1-1.5 years.. Could A/R have done the riser design BETTER then the others?? The finished BETTER then the others?? The limb pockets BETTER then the others??? The draw cycle BETTER then the others?? I don’t know… But I seem to see a whole bunch of people who think they do!!

I love the Martin Scepter II … it’s really nothing new. 40 inch AtoA bow ..73/4 brace height… fixed draw length hard cam…. recurve limbs… straight riser. Non-locking or pivoting limb pockets… Same design that has been around for a long time. Then they change the riser. Same style with some subtle improvements and everybody ( including myself) love it MORE. Now A/R does the same …. Makes subtle improvements to a style of bow that’s growing more popular every month in order to get an even smother feel … better limb alignment … even less vibration to a style of bow that has precious little anyhow. Most have not even have held it and all kinds opinions are flying as it just being another copycat 

Don’t want a slow and steady stream of improvments..Don’t want competition …don’t want choices…. Keep whining … What do you shoot?? I bet I can tell you who they copied and how they made it better!! Think out side of the box!! Yep … I agree … I really do!! However,when they do all that R&D … tooling … manufacturing … and marketing will you pay the extra $$$ 

Now if you want to whine about another bow to chose from re-read this post and see how intelligent your argument sounds!!!


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## AZPRO (Jul 25, 2002)

*As the AR site doesn't show that well*

The Bows are very good looking bows, and have a great 3-d visual about them, Yes it is still a bow and not far from from the bows of yesterday, but Public say what we are to build and design, and I don't think the public wants what we are actually capable of giving, There are so many off the wall bow out there that are out side the box and some just touch the box but they have not had the public demand that was needed to get off the ground.
I just hope you enjoy shooting these new bows as much as I have. and my prior comments about the Legacy were not Bashing by any means, I applaud mathews for seeing a very marketable item built back in the days and using todays technology to make it modern and useful.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

i have looked at a lot of bows lately and say this not knocking anyone's product because i have shot almost everything out there, but as far as technology goes i would vote for hoyt they have thought out of the box more than anyone else lately 
then high country for the carbon riser which is sweet...and then i am like everyone else here everything else is a modified, comestic variant of everything else 
i do like like to see the advances the industry is making, less vibration l
ess noise, faster bows, it is all better in some form or fashion.
however it is a bit slower than most of us would like to see and that comes because of the limiting factor of the biggest obstacle of all....money.


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## grantwomack (Dec 1, 2002)

I don't like the look of the bow. The parallel limbs are just like those on the Mathews Legacy. The riser looks a lot like a PSE Quantum that has bred with a PSE Rageous (funny that, seeing as PSE owns the company). They only offer camo colouring and what ever happened to those of us who like a short brace-height. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot (no pun intended) creating a bow that will only appeal to those shooters who hunt and within that group, people who like the feel of one-cam bows. I agree with archerdad in saying that Hoyt got it right with their tec series bows. So many options for those of us who like tweaking everything to just how we like it.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Looks like we have a mathews fan on our hands.. Eh Irish, not every bow that comes out looks like a mathews. PSE has some of their own stuff as well as every other company. In my opinion alot of the manufactures need something new and innovative. Whether it be looks wise or some new performance design. Mathews is not left out of this equation, their equipment has stayed fairly rudimentary over the past few years.. their lusterous multi thousand or million dollar advertisment scheme is starting to wear off and it looks as though alot of the archery community is getting bored. So I don't feel anyone should be smashing any company really, as they all have their ups and downs. Good shooting.
Dylan

Ps. I have some intresting riser designs drawn up, if any of you manufactures are intrested. ahahaha. I have alot more in the imagination I would say also.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

MerlinApexDylan,
Thanks for noticing I am a Mathews fan. Sorry man you can't argue with success!!! I dont think you are to observent by saying Mathews has not come out with anything innovative. Let see 

1-1992 Single Cam(this totally changed the whole archery industry)
2-1994 Carbon Cable guards
3-1994 Zebra String(first and only counter twisted dual bundle string)
4-1996 Parallel limb design
5-1997 Perimeter weighted cam
6-1998 Straightline single cam(the cam almost every bow company is copying today)
7-2000 Harmonic dampening system
8-2002 String Suppressors
9-2002 Roller Guard

And that is not all the innovations there are many more. So, I think you should open your eyes! Well, we will see Friday what new innovations and trick he has up his sleeve to shock all you Haters!!!!


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

IRISH,
You might want to visit http://www.archeryhistory.com/ 

1)Single Cam? Invented by Mr. Terry Martin and Len Suber
3)Zebra strings? Who needs em' They never stop stretching. 
4) Parallel limb design? 34" Rigid Hunter had em' in 1978.
5)Perimeter Weighted cam? Smoke and mirrors.
7)Harmonic Dampening system? Terry Martin invented and patented the use of a vibration dampening material in the riser of a bow. 
8)String supressors? First used by Bear Archery on the Delta V in 1981.
9) Roller Cable Guard? Invented by Mr. Mel Stanislawski in about 1977. Later licensed by Martin for use on the Cougars in 1980. Also used for some time on Golden Eagle Double Eagles. 

Check your facts and then tell me you really believe all of what you are being told. I know the truth hurts sometimes, but let's set the record straight.


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## 3d newbe (Nov 19, 2002)

oh man, one new bow stirred up all this??
i guess i'm glad i don't have enough cash to go out and buy a new bow right now, i might end up on the street corner , talking to myself and shouting obsenities!!!!! ......heck, i do that enough when i shoot.
it's just a new bow from a long time company. those that like and shoot this kind of bow should feel good that a company that has been around just about the longest sees fit to upgrade and get on the band wagon with what looks like something that is getting very popular. 
as for the "hype", come on now doesn't mazda make the best cars!or is it ford, or oh, maybe subaru, or chevy?......jeeezzz, i can't tell, they all say they're the best. you're not going to see a new product come out that isn't "the latest and the greatest" now are you??
personally, i am old school, i don't care for the p- limb technology, or the single cam system, the tend to "deaden" the bow's feel of performance. but that is not to say it doesn't have a place. judging by it's popularity, only a fool would not want to get one on the market asap. with pse's resources, i'm amazed it took them this long. 
those of you who are loyal to any one manufacturer, ......did you actually think the other guy(s) was not going to get a look at what you have??


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

JDES900X,
Holy crap you are a Genius maybe Mathews should get sued for all this false advertising!! Let me ask you a question who holds all the patens for these innovations. Wow, with all the royalties that Mathews has to pay it must be a good thing they are number one. Oh, and with all the money they spend on advertising they might just have to close there doors. All you Mathews haters kill me!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

I'll stick with my Merlin bows thanks... I've seen Mathews close up, I used to sell them. They aren't anything special... You wanna see innovative Irish. Take a look at Martins 2003 riser designs, take a look at hoyts equipment, and my favorite... Merlin. I'll tell you they look alot nicer then those 2x4's with harmonic dampeners that Mathews has been putting out. Now, nothing against Mathews.. but they need something exciting for me to even take a second look. Good shooting... and long live double cams and recurves.
Dylan
Ps.Bowtech even has more going on. And I'm no hater of Mathews because hate is a pretty harsh thing, I do however not like the equipment, which is my choice as I see it.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

MerlinApexDylan,
I think you need to get out of the dark ages with those double cam bows. What kind of spectacular things has Merlin done to there bow line? they are very innovative. Pretty funny most people never heard of them. they should have stayed on the island where they belong! As for me give me a 2x4 any day of the week! I think that the majority of the archery community would agree. You can have your double cam that you have to constantly tinker with I will take the solo! Hey, dont forget to bring a press with you when ever you leave the shop incase your bow goes out.


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## archerynut02 (Jul 28, 2002)

why does every post on new bows turn into a pissing contest..........if you like what you like thats good for you. dont litter an informitiv post with this, mine is better than yours crap!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Your a funny one mr grinch... Tinkering ahahaha, I've seen more tinkering with single cams then I have with doubles over the past few years. I think I would get the agreement of most of the target and 3-D archery community. Good luck with your Mathews, to bad the new baby on the block is going obsolete. By the way I'm a recurve archer for target... and I will stay in the old ages thanks... when I get a compound for hunting it'll be a Merlin. Have fun with your mathews... 
Dylan


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## THUNDERSTRUCK (Dec 24, 2002)

This was an AR thread come on guys.Dylan I seen your post on the BowTechs then you jump in here and start crap about Mathews.If your beef is with IRISH take it up with him try not to bring in the attitude your's is better than anybody shooting Mathews or any other bow for that matter. Have a nice day ^TS


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Yeah, this thread was intended to bash the AR's. Why does Mathews always get all the press?!

Lets not get off the beaten path and get back to bashing the AR's like this thread was originally intended   hahahaha!

 >>------->

Sorry, couldn't resist, lol!


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Don't have any problem with bowtech.. infact I think they make a great bow.. I little bland for the likes of me, but thats just me. Mathews isn't bad either.. I'm just honestly sick of hearing about them and their quote un quote innovations. Eh.. and I know im a jerk sometimes.. I have some growing up to do and I also know that. So please refrain from your comments towards me. Or read my comments a little more perceptively. Good shooting.
Dylan


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## MN Legacy (Jan 16, 2003)

Hey guys,

This is new venture with archery research is just a ploy
by pse to tap into the Mathews nich in the market. But to be 
honest with you I think that this AR 34 is basically copied
mathews bow. Which I think that pse has been going down this
trend for too many years. If pse is the undisputed leader in the
archery industry why don't they start doing something knew instead playing follow the leader. I think that Archery Research
will not be a big hit because it's nothing knew and that it's a
basic spin off from mathews.


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## Javier (Aug 23, 2002)

Uuhhmmm, let´s see...something new? No. It has limbs and string. Definitively nothing new in the archery industry since 5000 BC  Maybe that´s why we still call it archery
Thanks God Joe Cro-Magnon didn´t patent his first bow. We´d be still shooting with a stick
Well, I really like to choose the bow I want from more than 1 or 2 models, so... welcome AR. Another option for the archers.

Just my opinion


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## Donhudd (Sep 21, 2002)

*> Archery Research*

IRISH

I have a roller guard in my junk box that came on a Bear bow at least 25 years ago. Mathews DID NOT invent this . I have a feeling that many of the "Claimed Innovations" by all manufacturers are just improvements/ adaptations of things previously used. 

I am the proud user of a Mathews Conquest 2 bow and I love it but I am intelligent enough to know that there are other bows just as good. My bow closet contains bows from Olympus, Jennings, PSE, Hoyt, and Proline. Each had a compelling reason for purchase (at the time of purchase) that was over-ridden by later developements. 

I really cannot understand the reasoning behind the "My bow is best and all others are second rate" mentality exibited on this and other forums.

Remember, if it is not fun, you are doing the wrong thing.


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## HardcoreArchery (Jan 4, 2003)

MN Legacy
I'm with you!!!! But we will never get through to anyone on this site seeing how they are all Mathews Haters.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

I saw this statement recently and this (and many other posts) makes me think it is relevant.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are ignorant than to open your mouth and prove it."

Just something to think about : )

Jon


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## Designer 1 (Jan 16, 2003)

jonnybow:

That's a good one. Got another.

"My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts."


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## erk (Jan 2, 2003)

*archery research*

Not all companys copy mathews but many do the fact is that pse needs to get some new designers to make some bows and to come up with its own product .If you look at bows through out the life span of the compound bow there have been several copies it always seems that what ever works and sells is what people want to have its the same with cars ,shoes, and so on.The one thing that is clear is that mathews is the leader in design but that does not mean that they are the best bow it just means that the bow looks good if every company paid there shooters and for there ads like mathews we could all be shoouting something else and say that someone is copying them.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

*Another good one!*

"I have all the right answers, people just keep asking the wrong questions."

This one doesn't really pertain to the discussion at hand but it is funny.

Jon


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Good one Jonny... ahahhaha. Well I have some designs, I haven't been able to run them through a cad cam programme yet. But the day will come. To me they look pretty sweet, but Im sure I could come up with more. Good shooting.
Dylan


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## Osage (Jan 19, 2003)

What is the Martin single cam? The Dynabow? I haven't seen any single cam that was practical before the Mathews. There were a bunch of interesting designs, the Dyna, the Delta, but those may be bows with one cam, But they aren't what people mean today by a single cam. The basic inovation of having all the line feeding to, and unrolling from one cam is unprecedented.

Are there roller guards prior to the matews that don't move in and out, and that are set transverse? I have no idea wether it is good or not, there seem to be a lot of folks who ************************* about it, but is it a copy? I don't have a photo memory for guards, so I can't say.

Dylan, as I recall you ordered your Merlin sight unseen, basicaly on the eyecandy factor. That's fine, but there are different definitions here of what consitutes an inovative design. The wild new idea or look school; the inovation that maters school (big picture section includes stuff like invention of the compound bow); and the inovation that maters school of thought small scale (includes those little changes that make a product better, but maybe can't be observed in a picture, like the Avalon flexibility of riser that so many shooters prefered. Or getting the Apex design right in the next truss recurve design. What the pse designer here is saying is this design is more subtlely optimized, which may or may not be true. I don't like the sound of the grip though.


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## x-ring-1 (Oct 31, 2002)

*Shot One*

Folks, I was at the ATA show in a booth near to the AR booth an I will tell you they were B-U-S-Y !!! All the time!!! So I went and shot one--guess what? it is a very well made bow, very well designed--shot well--was quiet--better than what is out there right now?--NO!!!--What you have is a well made and designed bow that has dealer protected areas an is being hyped to the hilt---If you get one you will have a very good shooting bow but it will be no better than any body else's high end bow. Just my two cents worth


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## Osage (Jan 19, 2003)

Did I use a bad word? Oops. Was it that word Bill Buckley popularised that websters says means garbage?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

True enough Osage, innovations can be both on a large scale and smaller increments. There is a look factor to every peice of equipment though, as humans we are all creative beings and we look for creative means in everything we do. When we see an attractive scenery, or peice of archery equipment it sparks our intrest more so then the same ole thing. I will admit at first it was the Merlin Apex riser looks that made me take a second look, but I did infact do my research afterward while making a decision between recurve risers. Im sure the AR's are great shooters, like about almost every other bow on this planet. The looks to me are normal.. and un unique. Now to bend the limits and make a bow that is both different (Attractive) but has all the qualities of a good shooting bow, that is a true challenge. Hoyt did a good job with the tec riser, Martin did an excellent job this year with the Cougar3 and Scepter3 as well as alot of their line up, Bowtech made a wheely bow with speed thats shock free. Those are some innovations that catch my eye. AR.. they have a great looking bow and its probably solid as heck to shoot, but the letoff is to high and the over all look of the bow don't do anything for me. Especially single cams, I've never been a fan of the draw cycle, nor the over all feel of the shot. 
Good shooting. 
Dylan


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

I will add my nickels worth.
I saw the bows and I shot them I especially liked the 37"
It had a good smooth draw and I liked the way it felt. wasnt too crazy about the riser desighn but then agin ugly dont have a thing to do with preformance and this bow preforms very well but that is JMO.


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## Osage (Jan 19, 2003)

Merlin, 

I totaly agree looks have a lot to do with it. Mostly the technical arguments exist just to rationalize our individualistic preferences.


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## Nocam (Jan 25, 2003)

*bow price*

While as a competing bow manufacturer I will not comment on the bow, everyone here is forgeting a major factor in hiking up prices. The federal excise tax adds 11% to the price of your bow. Almost all of the companies in this industry are very small, save for a few, and very few people make alot of money doing this, especially not the proshop owners.


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## Trushot_archer (Dec 19, 2002)

*Kinda Funny!*

Flames or praise for the product...I find it funny that AR-34, the auther of this thread, Simply left a link *POOF* Vanished and has never posted again! Kudos to the Marketing Department @ Archery Research!


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## TECbownut (Dec 25, 2002)

great spot there true shot, didn't notice that but sounds like some great free advertising and research into what the public thinks of the bows......those sneaky bow companies!!!


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## Spot Monkey (Oct 2, 2002)

*Have a look at...*



IRISH said:


> *Its pretty funny that every new bow that comes out on the market is a copy of Mathews design. Look at the PSE Lightning cam is is an copy of the Mathews Max Cam just not nearly as good. The only different is that it works on a module system. Look at Hoyt they finally went away from the rest of the industry that follows Mathews and innovated something new. I think it is about time for some other companies to follow. I am sick of seeing the same bow basically from every company and they are all a copy of the Mathews!!!!!!!!!!!! *


...MERLIN of England.


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

:crybaby2:


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

talk about digging up old threads ukey:


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## gplant (Jan 31, 2008)

twisted1600 said:


> :crybaby2:


I feel your pain!!!!!!


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## JimEd73 (Aug 3, 2007)

The owner of a local pro shop here said that they are supposed to be back out next year. I currently own a 32 and a great shooting 34. Just bought the 32 so I haven't got it set up yet.


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## Shaman (Jun 19, 2005)

Here's to hoping for an X-Force version of the beautiful AR riser! :darkbeer:


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## bowhunterpse (Oct 23, 2005)

*Ar*



Shaman said:


> Here's to hoping for an X-Force version of the beautiful AR riser! :darkbeer:


That would be a sweet looking bow!!!


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## Q2DEATH (May 12, 2003)

This thread started in 2002


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## Shaman (Jun 19, 2005)

Q2DEATH said:


> This thread started in 2002


Aren't you glad it came back?
You might have missed it since you registered in 2003.


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## badbow148 (Dec 5, 2006)

AR will never be back and look for PSE to drop the Browning line in 2010 they have such a large line of bows in the PSEs now, no need for the other 2.


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## Q2DEATH (May 12, 2003)

Shaman said:


> Aren't you glad it came back?
> You might have missed it since you registered in 2003.


Why would I be glad?

Whats my registration date have to do with anything?

Maybe you're glad since you registered in '05.

A.R. is dead, pulling up a post from '02 won't help them.


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## RT1 (Nov 20, 2006)

Q2DEATH said:


> Why would I be glad?
> 
> Whats my registration date have to do with anything?
> 
> ...



Shaman- get over it, AR is done, what do you care you have the Diablo owners club going on. Can i join, please.
Browning is next to be done, 2010 if not 2011.

Dude move out of your parents house


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## Shaman (Jun 19, 2005)

RT1 said:


> Shaman- get over it, AR is done, what do you care you have the Diablo owners club going on. Can i join, please. Browning is next to be done, 2010 if not 2011.


I did not necro the post someone else did.
Then people NOT INTERESTED in AR come in and start making uninformed proclamations. 

And who was talking about Browning? Oh, yea. the same guys who did not care about AR and came in to post. 

Picking the on the Diablo Club? Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black.
You thought it such a great idea that you started your own...
Join the club = Martin Militia Thread


RT1 said:


> Join the club, Martin Shooters and Supporters.
> 
> Tell us what you shoot, why you shoot Martin, how long, & where your from.




Got to love AT sometimes.


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## RT1 (Nov 20, 2006)

your so witty

you got me there


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## RT1 (Nov 20, 2006)

dude i just want to be friends, i'm not sure what your trying to suggest, and your married?

Don't contact me anymore.


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## HATEoftheNORTH (Sep 20, 2008)

AR - isn`t dead :dancing::dancing::dancing:

*I still believe*... :behindsof


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## Florida Fire (Oct 19, 2008)

*yea*



Q2DEATH said:


> Why would I be glad?
> 
> Whats my registration date have to do with anything?
> 
> ...


yea i sort of agree with ya. this sort of smells more like a "shill boy for pse" to go back and dig up something in the archives to get things stirred up again.

i wont say AR is dead,,,nor is browning. it PROBABLY is a shill and the reason being is that pse will do something new this year to the AR name brand.

but again,,,,,how "different" will it be then the pse bow line ???? the so called chevy making and placing cadillac badge on it dont work for me when it comes to bows. if pse looks at what they did to the AR line,,,,they'll see this is what sort of pulled everyone away. people were buying AR bows that were "fully available in the pse line". what gives ????

make the bows different by a LONG SLIDE and it might take off. if pse introduces the new AR bows in the x-force fashion,,,what good are they doing ??? a different cam,,,a different riser angle,axle,or brace ???? thats not innovation and separating itself from itself. which is a hard act to follow.

think about it. having 3 different companies under 1 roof,,,you actually have to separate yourself from one another 3 ways in order for each line to be completely fresh from one another.


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