# Big arrows vs small ones



## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

I was looking on Twitter and our U.S. Archery team and most field shooters shoot small arrows so here's my question why (us) 3d shooters shoot the biggest arrows we can I know because of the lines it can get but don't we as shooters shoot small arrows better?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I think one thing hou have to do is realize that fat arrows aren't less accurate, they are equal. Out in the woods where there isn't any wind blowing around you have a big advantage with the fatter arrows not only punching a bigger hole in the target but also blocking other shooters from being able to hit the 12 ring that you just smoked.

Fat arrows have a huge disadvantage when there are crosswinds so out in the open things would have to be perfect for you to rely on them day after day when shooting long distance in a field, I have a course in my area that pops out in of the woods into a field and on a really windy spring day it is amazing that we are just fine in the woods but the moment we come out into the field it is a crap shoot if our fat arrows will hit within 10 inches of the 12 ring.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

My smaller arrows are lighter and I can get more speed out of them. I'll take the extra speed the smaller lighter arrows give me.


Too each his own.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree with Padge,no difference in accuracy ....IF.... you are tuned properly.
And as he stated,,it's not just what they do for you but also how they can be defensive by more "kickoffs" because you are already there where they want to be. Most overlook the defensive aspect,not only do you want to score well,BUT if you can keep others from scoring well even 1 shot,it can be big.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

carlosii said:


> My smaller arrows are lighter and I can get more speed out of them. I'll take the extra speed the smaller lighter arrows give me.
> 
> 
> Too each his own.


Depending on your arrow,but there NOW are fat shafts just as light as most small arrows and maybe not quite as tough,but they aren't brittle junk either.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You are jamming up to 16 arrows into a single spot for field. 4 of which are your own. The thinner arrows help there and also get to be pretty profound in terms of wind drift on the longer shots.

Grant


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I don't have issues getting speed from a fat shaft, or getting them to out score a skinny shaft for 3d....and one of the reasons I think they do is the fact that our aiming gets "soft" on 3d.... Meaning we may put an arrow exactly where we aimed (intended) for it to go, only to find that it wasn't the center of the center of the 12. It is in these situations that the fat shaft becomes "forgiving". 

There is no excuse for aiming anywhere but the center of the center of a spot you can see.


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

Well just seems like you can get lot better groups time after time with smaller arrows and talking about the 12s if you can't hit what you are aiming at how are you going to block someone out I'm just talking about the everyday archers not the pros or the guys at the top of your classes because they will move up to the top no matter what size arrows they shoot


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Deer Crossing Archery made some ultra-lights in a target shaft that would keep up with my GT Ultras. For some reason they dropped them. If I shot known distance I'd likely shoot fat shafts for 3D...its a geezer thing.


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## ToSi (May 24, 2013)

Big shafts cut line better. That is relevant for closer and small targets in 3d. And if u shoot the 11 ring big shafts even help keeping your opponents arrows out of this zone even on bigger targets.

It is true that small diameter shafts group better end tend to keep a flatter trajectory. But that advantage only comes into play on distances from 50 Meters (55 yards)...if there is no wind.

It also depends on the rules of the 3d-shoot. In Ifaa you shoot 28 Targets and 8 are very small standing up to 20 yards. U want to shoot a 10 on them which I find much easier with my fatboys compared to my victory VAP. On the other hand u might drop a point on the longer distances. But only 6 out of the 28 targets in ifaa stand up to 60 yards. So it is simple math. 

If you have to cut lines it is also different than if you only have to touch the line. I shoot a FITA (WA) 3d match last sunday. There u get the higher score if u touch the line. There a big shaft does not make such a big difference compared to IFAA, where u have to cut lines. Big shafts make only very small target zones significantly bigger...

Picture description is german but it shows that a fatboy makes a Fita 10 ring 36 percent bigger than if you would shoot a small diameter shaft (VAPs)...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

It's not just the increased diameter of the fatter shaft that adds points. The greater surface area of the fatter shaft means it can pull the higher scoring ring further. YES, I know the shaft must touch! There's a reason you don't see people lubing their arrows in competitive 3D. 

Paper targets directly reflect the arrows diameter but a fatter shaft in foam may pull the higher scoring ring towards it a good bit more than a skinny shaft.

Skinny shafts do NOT inherently group better than a shaft that is bigger in diameter.


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## ToSi (May 24, 2013)

Kstigall said:


> Skinny shafts do NOT inherently group better than a shaft that is bigger in diameter.


Indoors you are right. But in real world big arrows group not as good, cause they offer bigger surface to wind. Big shafts also tend to loose speed faster. So they slow down significantly more after 50 Meters than small Diameter shafts do and that gives even more time for influences like wind. 

If my fatboys would Group in the same small pattern like my vap, I would hit nocks off even on 60 Meters.

...interesting aspect with the arrow pulling the foam of the target so it looks like the line was cut.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

In the real world......


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

First off those shooting US Archery and World Cup events are NOT permitted to use anything larger in diameter than a 2315. Most don't use arrows that big outdoors, but will indoors.
That being said, using a 24, 25, 26, or 27 diameter shaft on an NFAA field course will COST you points on YOUR score and arrow breakage due to damages you inflict upon your own arrows and damages inflicted by other shooters as well. YOU must shoot all four of your arrows into a single spot on the close ones (and 2 and 2 on some of the fans), so you increase the chances of kissouts off your OWN arrows on those particular targets.
It is often said, even for indoor shooting to take the different sizes of shafts you have and shoot them and tune each at 40 yards. The particular arrow that shoots the most consistent and tightest groups is the shaft to shoot INDOORS. Many shooters find that a 23 or 24 diameter will group tighter at 40 yards than the logs will. Thus a 20 yard round is a chip shot. If you are a strong shooter, yes, the fatties MIGHT help some. But if you are an average shooter, simply going to a fat shaft is not going to take you from a 300/50X shooter indoors to a 300/59-60X shooter indoors. It won't take you from a 530 shooter to a 550 shooter on a field round either! 
There is more to it than expecting the "fat arrow" to GIVE you anything...you will work for it!
field14 (Tom D)


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Combine the smaller ASA 12 ring with the larger permitted 27 sized shafts and shorter distances suddenly shooting anything skinny will really start costing points.

Grant


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## ToSi (May 24, 2013)

field14 said:


> But if you are an average shooter, simply going to a fat shaft is not going to take you from a 300/50X shooter indoors to a 300/59-60X shooter indoors. It won't take you from a 530 shooter to a 550 shooter on a field round either!
> field14 (Tom D)


I agree. Big shafts only help significantly on very small targets if u are actually able to hit them. The larger the spot (or the area of your groups), the less percentage of surface you win by using a big arrow. I find it even debatable, weather a big shaft helps you shooting more 5s on an IFAA indoor face. It might help a little on the X. 

But in FITA ruling you have the very small 10 indoors (just 1 cm) and the 11-ring in 3d. These are really tiny targets, which win size if u use a big shaft. I compared shafts indoor and found that I shoot 3 to 4 points better with a big shaft. 3 or 4 points sound not so much. But there is a difference between 292 and 295...

And in 3d you shoot some very close targets like 10 to 20 yards. I found it even psychologicaly interesting, how much more confident you feel using a big shaft. The small ones with a small shaft were always the tough ones for me. Using big shafts the small targets became my favorites.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Luv2shoot3D said:


> I was looking on Twitter and our U.S. Archery team and most field shooters shoot small arrows so here's my question why (us) 3d shooters shoot the biggest arrows we can I know because of the lines it can get but don't we as shooters shoot small arrows better?





ToSi said:


> Indoors you are right. But in real world big arrows group not as good, cause they offer bigger surface to wind. Big shafts also tend to loose speed faster. So they slow down significantly more after 50 Meters than small Diameter shafts do and that gives even more time for influences like wind.
> 
> If my fatboys would Group in the same small pattern like my vap, I would hit nocks off even on 60 Meters.
> 
> ...interesting aspect with the arrow pulling the foam of the target so it looks like the line was cut.





ToSi said:


> I agree. Big shafts only help significantly on very small targets if u are actually able to hit them. The larger the spot (or the area of your groups), the less percentage of surface you win by using a big arrow. I find it even debatable, weather a big shaft helps you shooting more 5s on an IFAA indoor face. It might help a little on the X.
> 
> But in FITA ruling you have the very small 10 indoors (just 1 cm) and the 11-ring in 3d. These are really tiny targets, which win size if u use a big shaft. I compared shafts indoor and found that I shoot 3 to 4 points better with a big shaft. 3 or 4 points sound not so much. But there is a difference between 292 and 295...
> 
> And in 3d you shoot some very close targets like 10 to 20 yards. I found it even psychologicaly interesting, how much more confident you feel using a big shaft. The small ones with a small shaft were always the tough ones for me. Using big shafts the small targets became my favorites.


ToSi, the first paragraph is the original post with the question that was asked. The question is about arrow diameters for 3D. So in this thread the "real world" IS an environment of shooting foam at 50 or less yards. For most 3D'ers it is 45 or less yards. In most all situations it is not windy and most often it is even sheltered from what little wind there is. I shot with a couple of very well recognized "spot" shooters (Logan Wilde, Chris Perkins, Trillus) last year in K50 and they were using 23 diameter or bigger shafts.

In brief, we should always use the shaft that scores best for whatever game we are playing. When it comes to 3D with it's foam targets fat shafts offer a big advantage over small diameter shafts. The advantage is even greater than that which fat shafts have over thin shafts indoors. On paper targets the advantage of a fat shaft is only the increased diameter but with foam a fat shaft pulls the line much more than a thin shaft.


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## ToSi (May 24, 2013)

I don't really get the discussion here. Might be lost in translation... 

Yes again: Big shafts have advantages in 3d. And also yes again: Small diameter shafts are more accurate under real world shooting conditions. I mean, even on the 50 Meters Fita Round no one is using big shafts. If they would really group so well outdoors, we would see more bigger diameter.

But: Since we build the arrow according to the application, I would use big shafts for most of the 3d rulings I know. So I totally agree with you Kstigall.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Hey Kent,

Are any high scoring rubber deer shooters using large shafts for deep woods and small shafts for open field shots in the same tournament round by having separate sight calibrations (easy) and changing rest height (easy with the DS Advantage arrow rest vertical clicks)? Also easy to forget which rest setting you are on.

High scoring knowledgeable shooters should have their bow tuned so that the nock path stays within the force planes of the unsupported column (arrow) thereby makiing the bow and arrows platform less affected by arrow spine. This is more completely set forth in Tim Gillingham's white paper.

Is it worth any potential compromise entailed. I would not do it because it is too much to keep track of. However I might simply carry two bows, one for large arrows and one for small arrows.

Ha! Years ago when I wanted to screw with the pins shooters, sometimes I would carry two bows thereby allowing them to think I had a total of ten pin settings. Actually, both bows were identical but they did not know that.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Jim,

I do not believe that would be legal to change arrows during the round. Likewise changing bows would in theory require an equipment failure I think.

Ultimately not really worth the hassle.

Grant


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

FS560 said:


> Hey Kent,
> 
> Are any high scoring rubber deer shooters using large shafts for deep woods and small shafts for open field shots in the same tournament round by having separate sight calibrations (easy) and changing rest height (easy with the DS Advantage arrow rest vertical clicks)? Also easy to forget which rest setting you are on.
> 
> ...


As far as I know no one is even considering using two different set ups. 

If I was concerned about wind drift I'd use more point weight, less fletching surface and if absolutely necessary possibly go down one size in diameter. In my case I'm shooting short (advantage in wind), light weight CX LineJammers (25 diameter shaft) with 130 grains up front with 2" high profile vanes (335 grains) at about 270 fps. I'd definitely go back to shooting lower profile vanes with possibly even more point weight and possibly CXL's shafts (23 diameter) if I was real concerned about wind drift. The male pro's are generally using even fatter shafts but they are also shooting heavier arrows at about 295 fps (ASA) and execute shots better than I. Of course a bow configuration for shooting in the wind is different as well as might be the release. Many women pro's shoot smaller diameter shafts, less fletching and lighter arrows because they need to keep their speed up.

For many archers, arrow spine, as long as it is stiff enough, isn't as big of a deal with modern compounds. Jim and I have talked about this over the years and basically the "better" everything is designed, machined, assembled, aligned, tuned and the shot executed the less spine matters. Similarly the need for fletching is less important when everything is "perfect". Of course an arrow is very rarely launched "perfectly" and there is an arc so fletching of at least minimal size is necessary.

I know a lot of archers still like to make "spine" a very big issue but as long as it's not too weak it's not nearly as important in higher end well made compounds.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

grantmac said:


> Jim,
> 
> I do not believe that would be legal to change arrows during the round. Likewise changing bows would in theory require an equipment failure I think.
> 
> ...


Yep. All arrows have to be the same...in ASA anyway.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Jim,
> 
> I do not believe that would be legal to change arrows during the round. Likewise changing bows would in theory require an equipment failure I think.
> 
> ...





carlosii said:


> Yep. All arrows have to be the same...in ASA anyway.


How sure are you two about that. I've never shot ASA or much of any 3d, but have been brushing up on the rules lately. Looks like traditional is the only class that requires arrows to be identical, unless you count crossbow bolts as arrows too. Jim's question is legit.

The answer may be the same as to why NFAA pro's don't set up a fat arrow bow for the animal round at Outdoor Nats. Too much trouble, and maybe not that easy to swap bows and/or arrows (inline with Kent's post). I think Jesse still holds the record for the animal round, and was using protours .


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> How sure are you two about that. I've never shot ASA or much of any 3d, but have been brushing up on the rules lately. Looks like traditional is the only class that requires arrows to be identical, unless you count crossbow bolts as arrows too. Jim's question is legit.
> 
> The answer may be the same as to why NFAA pro's don't set up a fat arrow bow for the animal round at Outdoor Nats. Too much trouble, and maybe not that easy to swap bows and/or arrows (inline with Kent's post). I think Jesse still holds the record for the animal round, and was using protours .


It is in the NFAA Rule book that all arrows are to be the same size, length, and fletching, et cetera, with allowances for wear and tear. 
MOST tournaments also do NOT allow for the shooter to change shaft sizes during any tournament. If you start with fatties, you finish with fatties, regardless of whether it is a field, hunter, or animal round.
I am also pretty sure you cannot change shaft sizes at Vegas, NFAA Indoor Nationals, Iowa, Midwest Open, KC Shootout, or Lancasters either. You start with fatties, you finish with fatties INCLUDING any shoot offs or shoot downs. You cannot go to smaller arrows or larger arrows in the middle of the competition or a shoot off situation.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

carlosii said:


> Yep. All arrows have to be the same...in ASA anyway.


You sure about that,been shooting ASA for years and see a lot of guys with a modge podge of arrows


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

Yep,looked it up,no rule on differing arrow size for ASA,only that they are .422 or smaller.
Can be different lengths,sizes,etc.
I have even seen shooters use the tiny VAP's on a windy lane and then go back to fatty's in the woods.
Also have seen shooters run out of arrows and borrow from another shooter.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Here's pro archer Delmar Woodlawn talking about it here. 
http://youtu.be/ygWw7uaHOP0


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

field14 said:


> It is in the NFAA Rule book that all arrows are to be the same size, length, and fletching, et cetera, with allowances for wear and tear.
> MOST tournaments also do NOT allow for the shooter to change shaft sizes during any tournament. If you start with fatties, you finish with fatties, regardless of whether it is a field, hunter, or animal round.
> I am also pretty sure you cannot change shaft sizes at Vegas, *NFAA Indoor Nationals,* Iowa, Midwest Open, KC Shootout, or Lancasters either. You start with fatties, you finish with fatties INCLUDING any shoot offs or shoot downs. You cannot go to smaller arrows or larger arrows in the middle of the competition or a shoot off situation.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


That may be the case now at Indoor Nationals but I know for a fact that Braden G. changed to skinnies in the shootoff a few years back.


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