# Rotating Elbow, Shoulder Alignment, Waist/Hips



## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi all,

I've been wondering what to do with my hips after rotating the elbow. My right hip wants to follow my right shoulder in moving to the back to get the drawing elbow, arrow and the bow arm into alignment. Hopefully like the picture below. Should I allow it to move back with my drawing shoulder or should i force it to be square with my feet (it feels more like the left hip is moving forward though)? I tried watching videos online but it's hard to spot this movement due to the angle at which most videos are taken.









I've also been wondering what how to properly set up, so that the bow shoulder can get nice and low, and to raise a bow in a way that it does not feel heavy on my bow shoulder. Sometimes it is effortless to raise it, but sometimes i feel like I am rising 200 pounds of frustrations and confusion. What muscles do you use to have that slight pull during raising of the bow after getting the grip in place with a nice and relaxed wrist? Should the shoulders always be aligned to the target and the drawing shoulder be low during this process as well? I find it difficult to to keep my drawing shoulder low during this process of set up and pre draw.

I've been focusing my practice on setting up so that my wrist and bow arm are relaxed and rotating my elbow and getting that picture from above alignment. Here are 3 videos of my most recent practice:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/V4CsyH6eMHRccMTu9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CDrH6mAavuzgJ2dr7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zv3xwVTsah3cn14V6

Sorry for lots of questions. Any advise will be highly appreciated!

Olaf


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been wondering what to do with my hips after rotating the elbow. My right hip wants to follow my right shoulder in moving to the back to get the drawing elbow, arrow and the bow arm into alignment. Hopefully like the picture below. Should I allow it to move back with my drawing shoulder or should i force it to be square with my feet (it feels more like the left hip is moving forward though)? I tried watching videos online but it's hard to spot this movement due to the angle at which most videos are taken.
> 
> ...


Olaf. Since you are in the SF Bay area, much easier to come see me in Palo Alto. We can meet at the Palomo Indoor Archery Range.


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm actually living in LA now so it would be a little difficult. I'm coming back into the sport after a 4 year break and have not updated my location. Sorry for the confusion and I really appreciate your offer.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been wondering what to do with my hips after rotating the elbow. My right hip wants to follow my right shoulder in moving to the back to get the drawing elbow, arrow and the bow arm into alignment. Hopefully like the picture below. Should I allow it to move back with my drawing shoulder or should i force it to be square with my feet (it feels more like the left hip is moving forward though)? I tried watching videos online but it's hard to spot this movement due to the angle at which most videos are taken.
> 
> Olaf


1) to answer your question about the hips, make your core solid and strong (squeeze those tummy muscles), and the lower body should be stationary.
That means do NOT allow hips to swing forwards, cuz that will make your upper body swing backwards.
That also means do not allow your hips to spin around like on a lazy susan. Your ankles do not move, so keep your knees and your hips directly above the ankles.

More plank exercises to strengthen your core. Hips want to swing forwards, hips want to rotate and follow your shoulders rotation, means not enough core stability.
The lower half is your foundation, and the foundation must be rock solid, stationary, non-moving. The upper body must TWIST, COIL counter-clockwise to reach your bowstring at brace height. So, the POWER to draw your recurve bow, comes from the UN-COILING of the upper body only, to get through about 3/4 of the way to full draw, and the final leg of getting to anchor, is from your string side arm.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> I'm actually living in LA now so it would be a little difficult. I'm coming back into the sport after a 4 year break and have not updated my location. Sorry for the confusion and I really appreciate your offer.


Then, find an archery club down in LA, and work with a qualified coach. This will accelerate your learning curve.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)




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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Keep lower half SOLID and non-moving, and this is how you generate POWER from the un-coil of the upper body.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)




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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> 1) to answer your question about the hips, make your core solid and strong (squeeze those tummy muscles), and the lower body should be stationary.
> That means do NOT allow hips to swing forwards, cuz that will make your upper body swing backwards.
> That also means do not allow your hips to spin around like on a lazy susan. Your ankles do not move, so keep your knees and your hips directly above the ankles.
> 
> ...


This is pure gold and exactly the advise I was looking for/needed. Squeeze tummy muscles - roger, do not twist or bend anything but the upper body - roger roger! I just went to my exercise band, and oh boy I felt the difference immediately. I will work on strengthening my core with planks. Thank you so much for the advise and the visuals, it feels great to have a direction. 

I know working with a coach is the way to go, but currently nothing but sporadic lessons would be affordable for me. I would feel bad not being able to follow up with another lesson and having to have to say I can't afford it. Awkward for both parties.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> This is pure gold and exactly the advise I was looking for/needed. Squeeze tummy muscles - roger, do not twist or bend anything but the upper body - roger roger! I just went to my exercise band, and oh boy I felt the difference immediately. I will work on strengthening my core with planks. Thank you so much for the advise and the visuals, it feels great to have a direction.
> 
> I know working with a coach is the way to go, but currently nothing but sporadic lessons would be affordable for me. I would feel bad not being able to follow up with another lesson and having to have to say I can't afford it. Awkward for both parties.


Find an "advanced" archer who loves to teach. I don't charge my students. Of course, then I can be picky who I work with, cuz I don't charge. hehehehehe. I'm sure you can find people down in LA that would be willing to work with you...hopefully for no money. The REAL archers will want to pass on the knowledge.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> This is pure gold and exactly the advise I was looking for/needed. Squeeze tummy muscles - roger, do not twist or bend anything but the upper body - roger roger! I just went to my exercise band, and oh boy I felt the difference immediately. I will work on strengthening my core with planks. Thank you so much for the advise and the visuals, it feels great to have a direction.
> 
> I know working with a coach is the way to go, but currently nothing but sporadic lessons would be affordable for me. I would feel bad not being able to follow up with another lesson and having to have to say I can't afford it. Awkward for both parties.


Master the "coil" and the "uncoil". Coil the upper body (twist) while keeping lower body solid, to reach the bowstring at brace. Think of your tummy muscles, your obliques, like a watch spring. Then, to get to full draw, most of the way to full draw (say 3/4 of the way to get to full draw), you are using the UN-coil motion of your upper body, to get nearly all the way to full draw. That final leg to get to full draw, is when your string side elbow starts to pull to get you all the way to anchor. So, getting from brace to about 3/4 of the way to full draw, is really just swinging your right shoulder joint in a circle. You can practice the COIL (twist to reach brace height) and then the UN-coil (get to 3/4 of the way to full draw), with a really short stretch band. FEEL your tummy muscles stay tight. FEEL your obliques (muscles on the sides of your rib cage) working. Sure, there is some involvement of the latissimus muscles, as you twist to brace height, and as you untwist your upper body ONLY. Yes, you will FEEL your hip muscles struggling to stay solid, to RESIST the twist to reach brace height (really short loop of stretch band). Practice this twist and un-twist in front of the bathroom mirror, so you can SEE that your hips are stationary, and so you can SEE that ONLY your String Side shoulder joint is moving in a circle TOWARDS the mirror, and ONLY your string side shoulder joint is swinging AWAY from the mirror. THINK circles.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Added a yellow box, with red outlines, to show you the COIL of the upper body, to reach the string at brace.



He starts to UN-coil the upper body, starting to swing the string side shoulder clockwise.



Still un-coiling.



The uncoil of the upper body is mostly complete now, and the string side elbow finishes the draw to anchor.


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Master the "coil" and the "uncoil". Coil the upper body (twist) while keeping lower body solid, to reach the bowstring at brace. Think of your tummy muscles, your obliques, like a watch spring. Then, to get to full draw, most of the way to full draw (say 3/4 of the way to get to full draw), you are using the UN-coil motion of your upper body, to get nearly all the way to full draw. That final leg to get to full draw, is when your string side elbow starts to pull to get you all the way to anchor. So, getting from brace to about 3/4 of the way to full draw, is really just swinging your right shoulder joint in a circle. You can practice the COIL (twist to reach brace height) and then the UN-coil (get to 3/4 of the way to full draw), with a really short stretch band. FEEL your tummy muscles stay tight. FEEL your obliques (muscles on the sides of your rib cage) working. Sure, there is some involvement of the latissimus muscles, as you twist to brace height, and as you untwist your upper body ONLY. Yes, you will FEEL your hip muscles struggling to stay solid, to RESIST the twist to reach brace height (really short loop of stretch band). Practice this twist and un-twist in front of the bathroom mirror, so you can SEE that your hips are stationary, and so you can SEE that ONLY your String Side shoulder joint is moving in a circle TOWARDS the mirror, and ONLY your string side shoulder joint is swinging AWAY from the mirror. THINK circles.


I've just finished rubber band practice of coiling and uncoiling according to your instructions and it felt really weird at first, but I got it somehow right a few times I think. I definitely need to work on my core strength and just keep drilling this. I'm having a hard time accepting that I've been oblivious to this for such a long time. When watching videos now, I can clearly see how everyone's doing it.

Seriously, thank you for your very easy to understand explanation of what needs to happen and how it should feel. The feel part is really helpful as I can just tell by myself if I am doing it right or not. Also, the visuals, the visuals are bomb too. I really appreciate you being generous with your time and unveiling the secrets of a the coil power to me.

I'll be on a look out for an advanced archer looking to pass on their knowledge of the secret arts


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> I've just finished rubber band practice of coiling and uncoiling according to your instructions and it felt really weird at first, but I got it somehow right a few times I think. I definitely need to work on my core strength and just keep drilling this. I'm having a hard time accepting that I've been oblivious to this for such a long time. When watching videos now, I can clearly see how everyone's doing it.
> 
> Seriously, thank you for your very easy to understand explanation of what needs to happen and how it should feel. The feel part is really helpful as I can just tell by myself if I am doing it right or not. Also, the visuals, the visuals are bomb too. I really appreciate you being generous with your time and unveiling the secrets of a the coil power to me.
> 
> I'll be on a look out for an advanced archer looking to pass on their knowledge of the secret arts


When you get it "correct", your bow should FEEL much lighter (as in much less work to get to full draw and anchor). When you REALLY get it "correct", you will understand what is meant by these words...."feeling INSIDE the bow".


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> I've just finished rubber band practice of coiling and uncoiling according to your instructions and it felt really weird at first, but I got it somehow right a few times I think. I definitely need to work on my core strength and just keep drilling this. I'm having a hard time accepting that I've been oblivious to this for such a long time. When watching videos now, I can clearly see how everyone's doing it.
> 
> Seriously, thank you for your very easy to understand explanation of what needs to happen and how it should feel. The feel part is really helpful as I can just tell by myself if I am doing it right or not. Also, the visuals, the visuals are bomb too. I really appreciate you being generous with your time and unveiling the secrets of a the coil power to me.
> 
> I'll be on a look out for an advanced archer looking to pass on their knowledge of the secret arts


You are VERY welcome.


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> When you get it "correct", your bow should FEEL much lighter (as in much less work to get to full draw and anchor). When you REALLY get it "correct", you will understand what is meant by these words...."feeling INSIDE the bow".


I'm very much looking forward to finding out. All that's left is practice!


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> You are VERY welcome.


Just wanted to say thank you again, your advice really helped me improve. I took a bit of a break after covid hit but I am back at it again, and working on that uncoiling. Here's a video of three shots from my most recent day: archery Feb 21.mp4

If it's not too much trouble, could you give me some advice on elbow rotation? I can rotate it when holding the bow, although I feel like I am rotating my arm and the wrist stays in place as it can't move due to it being stuck in a grip. My bow kind of yanks to the right after the shot when I do that and I think that's the reason as the wrist follows the rest of the arm. I've seen videos of people holding up their hand in the air and rotating their elbows with the arm staying in place. I've been trying the same for the past hour but all I've achieved is a lot of arm rotations with a bit of frustration lol.

In the video that I shared, I think I even forgot to rotate that elbow and the shots felt amazing.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> Just wanted to say thank you again, your advice really helped me improve. I took a bit of a break after covid hit but I am back at it again, and working on that uncoiling. Here's a video of three shots from my most recent day: archery Feb 21.mp4
> 
> If it's not too much trouble, could you give me some advice on elbow rotation? I can rotate it when holding the bow, although I feel like I am rotating my arm and the wrist stays in place as it can't move due to it being stuck in a grip. My bow kind of yanks to the right after the shot when I do that and I think that's the reason as the wrist follows the rest of the arm. I've seen videos of people holding up their hand in the air and rotating their elbows with the arm staying in place. I've been trying the same for the past hour but all I've achieved is a lot of arm rotations with a bit of frustration lol.
> 
> In the video that I shared, I think I even forgot to rotate that elbow and the shots felt amazing.


See video at 1 min 15 seconds. Head is swinging backwards. Tighten core better, so upper body does NOT swing backwards, as you try to pull through the shot.

Consider modifying your grip with Sugru or bondo, to resemble the Jaeger grips.










right handed bow. The left edge of the grip is actually HIGHER and the right edge of the grip is actually LOWER,
so high to low edge goes from left to right. This will help with bow side elbow rotation.


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> See video at 1 min 15 seconds. Head is swinging backwards. Tighten core better, so upper body does NOT swing backwards, as you try to pull through the shot.
> 
> Consider modifying your grip with Sugru or bondo, to resemble the Jaeger grips.
> 
> ...


oh I didn't even notice that it moved there, thank you! Also, thank you for the grip tip! I have it modified with Sugru like thing to have tit elevated but not in the way that you have it. I'll sand it down to have it just like in the pic.

I heard that you should be able to rotate your elbow without moving your shoulder/wrist, and that you should be able to do it with your arm in the air (no wall/bow). Is that true? I seriously can't seem to be able to locate what muscles I need to use in my arm to do that.

Also, you're the best. Thank you very much!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

olafff said:


> oh I didn't even notice that it moved there, thank you! Also, thank you for the grip tip! I have it modified with Sugru like thing to have tit elevated but not in the way that you have it. I'll sand it down to have it just like in the pic.
> 
> I heard that you should be able to rotate your elbow without moving your shoulder/wrist, and that you should be able to do it with your arm in the air (no wall/bow). Is that true? I seriously can't seem to be able to locate what muscles I need to use in my arm to do that.
> 
> Also, you're the best. Thank you very much!


Do not TRY to rotate your elbow. You will do serious damage to the rotor cuff, if your TRY and rotate the elbow (bow side).

Better to rotate the bow hand wrist and bow side knuckles on the hand,
and whatever angle your elbow ends up at, that is the elbow angle you end up at.


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