# Good recurve groups?



## JPMotorsports3 (Aug 29, 2006)

Does anyone have any pictures of their 20yd groups with a recurve? Just curious to see what are some good shots.

J.P.


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## dcwhite55044 (Nov 6, 2003)

They are going to be different for each person. Are you looking for a goal? If so start with a 8" white paper plate. You should be able to put 9 out of 10 arrows on that plate.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

JP - 

This question comes up every so often. Let's face it, no one is going to post a picture of a bad group, most won't even post an average group. (Who would take a picture of an average group?) Most of use have shot 3 ot 5 arrow 1" groups at 30 yds and beyond, but the reality is, it doesn't happen often, and is mostly luck for barebow shooters. In the same vein, when somesome posts they average 3" groups at 20 yds, most of us disregard the post. Consistant 3" groups would make you a national or world champ.

That's one reason "A" group doesn't tell you much, and why we consider the NFAA indoor round, pretty much the gold standard or 20 yd accuracy. Shooting 60 arrows in 12 ends of 5 arrows each can give you an honest appraisal of your "group" size and shooting ability. 

Now if you want tot tlak scores, that we can do!

Viper1 out.


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## JimPic (Apr 8, 2003)

17-18yds with a longbow


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## JPMotorsports3 (Aug 29, 2006)

I was just curious as to what was decent. With my competition compound, if Im not hitting 1" circles at 20 yards, I Know something is wrong. With my recurve, in the 2 days I have shot it, I can put 5 arrows in a 5" circle at 10 yards, and 4 out of 5 in an 8" circle at 20. However, coming from the compound stuff, I always look for tighter groups. Thanks for the input.

J.P.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

One-arrow group, 20 yards, no idea what that scores on an NFAA round though. :chortle:


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## kraven (Jan 25, 2006)

To respond to the OP (JPmotorsports3):
It doesn't matter what we do. Practice relative to your own goals and ambition. Try to do your best each time. 
If I post here that I shoot the fletching off my arrows every time I shoot 20 yard groups, then you'd be working with my goals and not your own. And, maybe you can do that and maybe you never can. 
Ultimately, your practice with a recurve (especially a barebow) is a contest between you and yourself.


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

I'd like to make a point about concentration in instinctive shooting that is relavant here. The best shooters with traditional equipment in 3-D shoots (where longer periods of concentration and focus are necessary) are the folks who can continue to focus and concentrate over the time period. One thing you learn early on is that it takes practice, both physical and mental to get better and consistent in such a situation. 

On the other hand, to hunt well you need to usually just make one shot, and make it count...and you need to "at will" draw on that ability to concentrate to a high level for the few seconds you are focusing for a shot. With practice most archers get to a "auto pilot" on shooting with the physical skills, but the mental focus is what enables you to really become a successful hunter. Reasonable practice will usually result in a fairly straight forward ability to shoot pretty consistently during practice.

When I was practicing in the past (and for that matter now too) I would get to a point where I was just plain tired and shooting sloppily...but right before I quit I would always summon all my concentration and focus and shoot one more arrow to prove to myself that I can do it when I need to. Usually, I was and still am successful with this intense effort and that is pretty much what I try to always maintain. I'm not so concerned with making 50 straight shots at a 3-D shoot as much as being able to make a decent shot when I have to... when hunting or just for reassurance whenever I really bear down and demand it from myself. 

Just thinking out loud.

RB


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## Fl archer (Jul 1, 2006)

J. Wesbrock said:


> One-arrow group, 20 yards, no idea what that scores on an NFAA round though. :chortle:


 Nice group


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Jason...nice group and a nice bow 

oh...and a nice string too


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

FL Archer & Hank...thanks. Ruffed grouse are a blast to hunt with a bow. Tastey too.

Hank, next time I run into you I've got to check out that portable string jig of yours again. I'm thinking about making one for myself.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Jason --

This is the last one I built and like it the best. Its 1" square tubing slid into 1.25" tubing. All you have to do to make it fit is grind a groove in the 1" where the seam is inside the 1.25" tubing -- then it slides right in.

Sometimes I get up to Ohare to drop my girlfriend off, or pick her up and usually stop by Dan Jet's, but he smells funny sometimes. Could stop by one of these times. My girlfriend got a good deal to fly out of here over the holidays, so I will be stuck here this time.


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## citori (Apr 15, 2004)

Viper1

What are the top scores in NFAA barebow you are talking about. That way EVERYONE knows exactly what world class is? Also can you tell us where to find one of those NFAA targets so we can TRUELY see how we shoot.

Seems to me sometimes people dont realize just how "good" they are able to shoot   

thanks
citori


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Top scores...

You score a 280 or above, You are guaranteed in the top 3... in the nation and world.

Dwayne


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

the Targets are 40cm targets... Called Blue face or Black face targets.

If you want, you can print them off yourself from your computer.

I make them off my computer now... Using Corel Draw. Granted they don't have all 5 rings, but I only need the first 2, and sometimes (grrr) the third ring.

On a 8 x 11 paper, you can get most of the third ring, and all of the 1st and 2nd ring. the 4 and 5 ring you only get the top and bottom of them.

Dwayne

(I refer as the first ring the bullseye, not the one point ring, and count out from there)


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## citori (Apr 15, 2004)

Dwayne,

Thanks.....like I said some people just dont seem to "realize" just how "good" of groups they are "able" to shoot.... 

This seems to be common in both "traditional" and wheel bows.

thanks
citori


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## citori (Apr 15, 2004)

Is there any way to post up pic of the target and how it is scored? 

That way everyone knows EXACTLY how to score it so there are no mistakes. That way they can get an accurate score.

thanks
citori


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## AllenRead (Jan 12, 2004)

The NFAA 5 spot target faces are availble from Lancaster Archery for 25 cents each:

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/sho...=1385&osCsid=bd4fb8da1fc8b8e07f2409922932ab53

The single large face is also available from them at the same price. The single face is what most of the traditional equipment shooters use at my club.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

The Target is a 5 ring target...

The center bullsye is approx 3 inches in diamter...

It is scored as 5 points.

The next ring (closest to the bullseye) is worth 4 points.
the next 3 points.
The next 2 points.
The last (and final ring) is worth 1 point.

If you are TOUCHING the LINE between two rings with your arrow, you score the HIGHER of thw two rings. (The REAL close ones are called "bottle Lickers" <g>)

Shoot 4 groups of 5 arrows (worth 100 points Maximum)
Shoot 2 more of these 4 groups of arrows (all together you have 300 possible points).

I like shooting in groups of 3, because each group is worth a Max of 100 points... and all 3 groups add up to 300 points. 

Basically it is 60 arrows worth 5 points a piece. How you want to divide those 60 arrows up is up to you...

Dwayne

edit part...

I gave you a Target.wmf... With this file you can use your Windows program to print...

Choose the option Full Face "photo"... the 3 point rings will be cropped on the sides, but the demensions of the rings will be correct in size for 20 yard scoring.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Citori,



> Thanks.....like I said some people just dont seem to "realize" just how "good" of groups they are "able" to shoot....


 I shoot barebow recurve... Viper does the same.

I believe Viper has scored a 280... I have scored every 270+ number there is... but I have yet to score a 280.

240 is considered not to bad... This means on the average all your arrows are in the 4 ring. This also means that 30 arrows can be in the Bullseye and 30 arrows in the 3 ring! <g>.

250 is harder to achieve. (duh)

And scoring higher is greatly exponentially harder. as you go higher in score.

Dwayne


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

All those circles makes me dizzy.  









These are the only spots I care about.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Nice doe...good shot! Venison tastes better than paper anyway.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents -

When I first replied to this thread, I said that a picture of a group was pretty meaningless. The purpose of the exercise, and the inherent value of shooting for score, is to remove "luck" from the equation. Shooting a single arrow dead center into a target or an animal means even less that a picture of a group. Even the worst archer is the world will hit what he's shooting at sooner or later. Shooting two, even three dead center can be a "hot streak" another term meaning luck. Now, shoot 60 arrows and take an average, that says a lot more, because (while not impossible) luck won't hold out that long. That's why shooting at paper and keeping score is a valid benchmark. 

Back to reality.

The five spot target is pretty tough for most barebow shooters. It really does force a very tight focus, while having to change targets on every shot and there's very little room for error. Most good shooters will drop about 20 points when going to a 5 spot from a single spot.

Dwayne - BTW, I have a 280 and a 282 under my belt, BUT that was a long, long time ago. My best recent score (last year) was a 274 and that was way above my current average. Guess I must have been lucky that day . 

Viper1 out.


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## citori (Apr 15, 2004)

thanks Dwayne/viper

That will give a lot of guys something to think about.

I have never shot a NFAA round with a recurve/longbow barebow.....But spent a LOT of time shooting 5 spots with a wheel bow....

gonna have to try it with "trad" gear.

If I remember correctly in the past some guys mentioned things like 3" groups....that would be a 300!!!!!! I think that some may be a LITTLE optimistic   

99.9% of wheel shooters CANNOT do this!!!! A 300 with ANY archery equipment you choose from selfbows-unlimited compounds is a GREAT accomplishment!!! 

I also have a buddy that gives me the "I cant hit paper/clay birds/tagets perfect but put hair/feathers on it and it is meat".....   Gotta love this type statment

This response is not meant to make anyone mad or call anyone out......I have not seen any of you all shoot. If you are one of the elite handfull in the world who can shoot that well my hats off to you!!!! I just think that a lot of the time people are not really honest with themselves on their true ability with archery equipment.

thanks
citori


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Citori,



> I have not seen any of you all shoot. If you are one of the elite handfull in the world who can shoot that well my hats off to you!!!! I just think that a lot of the time people are not really honest with themselves on their true ability with archery equipment.


 Citori, you can actually tell the ones who have shot in the 270's , 280's, 260's.... You can also tell the ones that *think* they shoot that high too...

There comments on their ability does not jive with the abilty to shoot such scores. It takes a lot of knowledge to tune a bow to score high. It is not just a simple "set the nock and go". A arrow rest is a huge improvement... Brace height is a huge difference. Arrow spine "can" be a huge difference. 

And of course... like you say... some folks shoot a hell of a lot better than they think... And when you put them on Paper...if they score a 200, they are doing damn good!. But by golly... they can hit those stumps they are shooting at all the time! And those cans! (yeah sure)... Those cans??? I do not know about carbon, but those cans (aluminum cans that is) tear up aluminum arrows very badly...Bends them right out of shape... and that is with a 2315 to boot!

Vipers right... pictures of groups are worthless. Animals hanging with holes in them are worthless. Anyone can do a one shot luck. But paper starts to take away that "luck" factor, and bring reality into the picture. What about those "fliers"? they missed the animal, so lets not count that as a picture of a "kill". That miss is counted as zero when you score, and really hurts your average.

And by the way... shooting paper has proven to be more healthier for you... It has more "fiber" in it... 

Dwayne


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

DwayneR said:


> And by the way... shooting paper has proven to be more healthier for you... It has more "fiber" in it...
> 
> Dwayne


So does tree bark.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

Just start with a big taget and keep shrinking it.

Even compound shooters have days when they cant buy a bullseye. Trust me i know!


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Nj,



> Just start with a big taget and keep shrinking it.


 Well... Yes and no...depending on how you look at it. Shrinking it causes the whole target to get smaller... That means that 3 1/4 inch circle in the center may end up being only 1.5 inches if shrunk to fit on a 8x10 paper. If you place this at 20 yards, How can you compare your score with others? If you shoot a 180 on a shrunk target, that may be equivalent to 250 on a full size target!... But at the same time... If you score a 250 ...wow!

Am I understanding you correctly? Or did I miss the boat altogether?



> Even compound shooters have days when they cant buy a bullseye. Trust me i know!


 Like me...<g> (Dwayne with his hand raised up).

Dwayne


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

Well I'm sorry but pictures of animals with good shots does mean something to me. I really credit the guy who shot the grouse with his bow. That's not an easy thing to do. Personally, I first and foremost am a bowhunter. I practice on the 3d range and in the woods. Never shot paper targets much at all and don't really care too. It might prove who is the best archer but to me that's not the point. The point to me is spending my time in the field and being able to make the shot if it presents itself. If I never get a shot, that's ok too, I'm still in the woods where I love to be. I have no desire to be a target archer and the way I practice does just fine in preparing me for hunting. Peace and Merry Christmas.


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

DwayneR said:


> Hello Nj,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont mean for score. I mean in general. In other words....dont go out there with a 1" circle and be mad that ya cant stack arrows. Start with that paper plate but gradually shrink it (or shrink the acceptable size of the kill zone).


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Please*

Can some one please give the exact measurement of these targets, when I read posts above you get 3 -31/2 inches for the 5 ring , could some one give circumsanses and scoring per ring in a simple form so we can make some....
thanks in advance, here in canada I think targets are fita style and sizing ...:darkbeer:


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

> Can some one please give the exact measurement of these targets, when I read posts above you get 3 -31/2 inches for the 5 ring , could some one give circumsanses and scoring per ring in a simple form so we can make some....
> thanks in


 Yes they are the EXACT SAME SIZE as the FITA Targets...40cm Rings and all..

The only diffence is, you combine the 9 and 10 point ring and call it the 5 point ring.

Combine the 7 and 8 point ring and call it the 4 ring.

Combine the 5 and 6 point ring and call it the 3 ring.

Combine the 3 and 4 point ring and call it the 2 ring.

Combine the 1 and 2 point ring and call it the 1 ring.


Dwayne

Edit... If you look up this thread, I uploaded a target... It is the exact size you want.... GRanted, it doesn't have all the rings, but it has the first 3 rings...The Bullseye is 3.2 inches... or approx 3 1/8 of an inch. The target I uploaded was made to the exact deminsions. You can use that for the ring size and Bullseye.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Great*

THANKS DWAYNE makes it simple...


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## wetraptor (Dec 1, 2006)

RodB said:


> I'd like to make a point about concentration in instinctive shooting that is relavant here. The best shooters with traditional equipment in 3-D shoots (where longer periods of concentration and focus are necessary) are the folks who can continue to focus and concentrate over the time period. One thing you learn early on is that it takes practice, both physical and mental to get better and consistent in such a situation.
> 
> On the other hand, to hunt well you need to usually just make one shot, and make it count...and you need to "at will" draw on that ability to concentrate to a high level for the few seconds you are focusing for a shot. With practice most archers get to a "auto pilot" on shooting with the physical skills, but the mental focus is what enables you to really become a successful hunter. Reasonable practice will usually result in a fairly straight forward ability to shoot pretty consistently during practice.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rob B, been shooting for over 50 years and your short comment was one of the most insiteful I have ever heard. I shoot a Hoyt Pro Medalist 32# 70", bare bow and realize I will never compete better with anyone than myself. In the end, that is all that matters. Thanks


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## John49 (Feb 25, 2006)

I have always shot fita targets indoors, never tried a nfaa target. Last winter, I averaged 465 in fita barebow class.(600 round) Is there a formula or some sort of indicator to convert that average to a nfaa 300 round? Just curious what I could expect to shoot nfaa style. John


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Soumi said:


> Well I'm sorry but pictures of animals with good shots does mean something to me. I really credit the guy who shot the grouse with his bow. That's not an easy thing to do. Personally, I first and foremost am a bowhunter. I practice on the 3d range and in the woods. Never shot paper targets much at all and don't really care too. It might prove who is the best archer but to me that's not the point. The point to me is spending my time in the field and being able to make the shot if it presents itself. If I never get a shot, that's ok too, I'm still in the woods where I love to be. I have no desire to be a target archer and the way I practice does just fine in preparing me for hunting. Peace and Merry Christmas.


The original post, and thus the thread, was about 20 yard groups. Why do some of your feel it necesary to tell the rest of us you don't shoot groups, don't believe in shooting groups or only care about shooting one shot into animals not paper?

Nobody said you had to shoot groups or should shoot paper. It was a question for those who do. Are you so insecure you have to reinforce you own belief system, even when it isn't the topic of discussion?

Dave


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

My original remarks were basically trying to get the point across that you don't necessarily have to be able to get great groups...just be able to make a shot when it counted...and that is of prime concern for most bowhunters. ..and I was probably trying to make the point that for many archers getting good groups may not be important. 

There is certainly nothing wrong with shooting for grouping, we all do it now and then, and I plainly said it took the ability to focus over a longer time period to do it well. I'm sure most here did not mean to criticize that approach. If you look at what has been said, the ability to keep shooting well and concentrating over a time period was more or less described as a challenge and not very easy...but an alternative for a hunter was offered up ... being able to really focus when you had to...which is easier than shooting in competition. In practical applicaton, field hunting demands not only the ability to really focus when you must, but to keep control of your adrenalin rush in the excitement of the hunt. That venue in no way detracts from target shooting, its just a different perspective...and perhaps many hunters haven't thought about how small they could actually get a group.

One final thought...when I was shooting for practice I always liked to see a good "grouping" as it showed a fairly relaxed ability to shoot consistently. . .but as time wore on, as a hunter I much preferred shooting at a clean target (3D animal) with each of several different arrows because it was just great practice for hunting... where you only have one shot and the range is different every time. You walk up, size up the situation and make the shot... hopefully a "kill shot". Now this is "demanding" but not as difficult as putting 10 arrows in a 2" circle at 20 yards.

RB


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

Dave T said:


> The original post, and thus the thread, was about 20 yard groups. Why do some of your feel it necesary to tell the rest of us you don't shoot groups, don't believe in shooting groups or only care about shooting one shot into animals not paper?
> 
> Nobody said you had to shoot groups or should shoot paper. It was a question for those who do. Are you so insecure you have to reinforce you own belief system, even when it isn't the topic of discussion?
> 
> Dave





DwayneR said:


> Vipers right... pictures of groups are worthless. Animals hanging with holes in them are worthless. Anyone can do a one shot luck. But paper starts to take away that "luck" factor, and bring reality into the picture. What about those "fliers"? they missed the animal, so lets not count that as a picture of a "kill". That miss is counted as zero when you score, and really hurts your average.
> 
> And by the way... shooting paper has proven to be more healthier for you... It has more "fiber" in it...
> 
> Dwayne


Sorry to ruffle you or stray off target, get it, but I was responding to this remark. Fact is many of us shoot for different purposes. I do shoot groups, just not at 5 spot targets which seems to be the only thing that was being considered. I practice groups all the time. I shoot at a 3d target at 10 yards, back out to 20 yards, go to 15, then to 30, out to 40 and see how I can group. Or I'll just fire off 5 at 20, which if you have to know I can do pretty well. but my point is we don't all shoot paper and it's not the only test there is as to wether or not you're a good archer. In the world of bowhunting, it's the first shot that counts.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rob -

I agree with everything you just posted and I particularly like the word FOCUS over concentration. But, here's the rub. Without practicing for "groups", which seems to be a nasty word in some circles, all that focusing will do, is train you to focus on a given point. While that's great, and it really is a necessary skill; without paying your dues at the butts shooting those groups, all that focusing won't make your anchor consistant, your shoulder alignment correct, your release (follow-through, actually) clean and your bowarm steady. After you've paid your dues, then that ability to focus pays really pays off. The other stuff I just mentioned becomes automatic, and the focusing really is what sends the arrow to its mark. 

I still contend that most people miss, not because of poor aiming, by poor form. Form first, focus second, and then the aiming becomes a non-event at usual hunting distances.

It's been my observation over the years, that an increasing number of "bowhunters" beleive that the "force" will take over when placed within range of a trophy buck or whatever. I don't believe it works that way. Development of the mechanical skills, making them automatic, by "shooting paper" is what makes that one shoot the best it can be and not just luck. 

BTW - a 3D round doesn't take that much sustained focus. 40 arrows over 2 to 3 hours isn't that big a deal. 60 arrows in 45 minutes - different story.

Regarding your last statement:


> I...when I was shooting for practice I always liked to see a good "grouping" as it showed a fairly relaxed ability to shoot consistently. . .but as time wore on, as a hunter I much preferred shooting at a clean target (3D animal) with several different arrows because it was just great practice for hunting... where you only have one shot and the range is different every time.


You really didn't mean DIFFERENT arrows right?

Assumimg you didn't mean that, I also have to fully agree with what you said, because it was exactly what it took me several paragraphs to reiterate. You shot groups first, then shot single arrows. Build the foundation, and hone it for your intended purpose!!! :thumbs_up 

Viper1 out.


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## ronroettger (Apr 24, 2006)

Back in the mid 90's I shot a 264 indoor score with my 60# Bear Kod. often shot in the 250's(96 was my best 20 arrow score) I was Happy with that! in 1995 I shoot 4 Trad. 3-D shoots with the same bow, Results out of 146 total targets (56-30-30-30) I hit the vital on 139 took 1st place at all four shoots competing against about 1000plus,300,200,and 100 others. Because of a new job, and and spending more time teaching Bowhunter, and Hunter Education, and working on Wisconsin Conservation Congress items I dont shoot as much! My indoor scores for league last winter were 208-238 goal is always to shoot 80 for 20 arrows, and 240 total, shot some 80's last year but not a 240. League starts in 4 weeks, because of recent open heart surgery I am going to shoot a 45# recurve to start the year! Hope to shoot a 250 plus this year!


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

Viper,

You are right about the practice and "grouping" comes first for "form" to develop and of course consistency. I was assuming we were talking about those who had been shooting awhile and pretty much had a semblence of decent form already. The start of the thread was asking about grouping ability and I felt compelled to offer another perspective...although not for beginners. If anything, beginners need a consistent set of circumstances to develop good form. 

And yes, when practicing I still shoot at fixed ranges for grouping and just getting the feel of consistency...then when I have gotten into the groove...I like to shoot different arrows at varying ranges as a drill to improve my "distance computer". Usually, I have shot many arrows at 15, 20, 25, and 30 yards beforehand. I think anyone getting back to shooting after an layoff needs to shoot plenty of arrows at one target to just get the basic feel of your form back...and to calibrate your mental distance computer....but after that I like to do the following:

I just shoot at a target at say 15 yards, then back up to 20 yards and shoot another arrow, and again back up to 25 yards and shoot another. Sometimes one shot is kneeling, the other is sitting on a bucket, and another is standing. Sometimes they are all standing. Sometimes if the range has different targets sitting, each arrow is fired at a different target. I try to mix it up and it is a good drill for hunting practice. 

If I can walk up and shoot at 4 different targets at varying ranges in the space of a few seconds...and all my shots are in the kill zone, I'm thinking I've shot a good drill for practical application to hunting. I also like to wander around in a 3D course and take random shots at different targets just for variation. I always like to shoot at a "clean" target" (no arrows in it at all) as good hunting practice. Sometimes, I like to take one shot and as in a hunting scenario, take another from a different range or position quickly, to mimic a "second shot"...

Of course you can't allow your distance "computer" to work if you haven't done the ground work before hand developing a good consistent form plus developing the ability to have a pretty good fix on where your arrow will go. I might not have said this very well, but I'm sure you get the idea. Perhaps what I mean to say is that when I shoot at varying ranges and setups...and shoot well into "kill zones" at all of them, I feel like I am operating on all cylinders and I'm on my "game" for hunting...just like guys go stump shooting to hone their skills.

I agree, developing archers mostly have to work on form and consistency and focus and can try the variation challenges later on.

RB


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rob -

That's it exactly. No one in their right mind would, nor should, assume that a given score on anything is all that's needed to be an efficient bowhunter. But it does prove whether the guy can shoot ot not and that has to be the first step.

Typically, the guys who ask questions here are new shooters or shooters recently switching from compounds to stickbows. Having some idiot say that all that's needed is "one good shot when it counts" negates all the work that has to go before that "one good shot" can happen with any degree of certainly. 

Just as important, this is the Internet and we can't see what the other guy is doing. What a lot of people ask on these forums amounts to Internet coaching, that's pretty hard to do. When someone says that they are having a certain problem with their shooting, high groups, lefts or rights, tuning issues, etc, knowing what the guy averages on a known benchmark is going to help us figure out what's going on. While most problems do have a well established cause and effect, the approach for a 180 or 200 NFAA shooter is going to be a little different from a guy averaging a 270. 

It's funny (and this really ISN'T directed at you), but once we get past the ME BOWHUNTER, macho, one shot non-sense, the guys who actually can shoot and hunt well are the guys who have paid their dues. 

When most of us were starting out, being an archer was a prerequisite to becoming a bowhunter. Guess times have changed.

Viper1 out.


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

Rob, 

You and I practice virtually the same and I find it good preperation for hunting. There is no magical Force when making that one shot in the woods. It comes from years of training and practice when distance calculation becomes automatic. It may happen in a split second, but the shot goes off naturally from learned response that develops with proper training.

I also agree with Viper1 in that "Form and Grouping" does come first. I hope I'm not seen as the Idiot spouting off as the "you only need one shot he-man hunter". I spent years shooting and working on form. Standing in front of the bales at 10'. I still check myself. The camcorder is great for this. You can see if your dropping your bow arm, plucking or whatever. Yes, the beginner needs to learn form and be consistant in his shots. It's all about consistancy and repeatability. Without good consistant form, your arrows will be all over and yes, I agree that shooting groups will reveal this. 

Sorry if I came off wrong. Being new here I hope to gain come credibility and not be seen as an idiot spewing off nonsense.


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## citori (Apr 15, 2004)

I agree with all the different opinions above. I think that we seem to be on the same track.....just didnt understand each other in the start....

It is HARD to talk on the net sometimes. You are not able to see facial expressions/hear sarcasm/inflection of voice. THese are all vital to getting ones message across.

In my opinion(disclaimer ) if you cannot shoot at the target range with a decent degree of consistancy/accuracy you wont be very effective in a hunting situation. The best hunters are both great shooters AND great hunters. On the other hand some of the BEST shots on the range that I shoot with dont do very well hunting......It is a two part deal.

Luck will only hold up so long before it runs out   

thanks
citori


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Ron,



> I shot a 264 indoor score with my 60# Bear Kod. often shot in the 250's(96 was my best 20 arrow score)


 This is exactly what Viper and I talk about.... (For those folks who don't know, a 96 is extremely good...98 has been my highest ever...But the next round suked <g>. in order to shoot a 240 score, you *must* shoot at LEAST a 80 or better in all three rounds. In order to shoot a 270, you must shoot at least a 90 in all three rounds. (And of course... anything above is extra points!).

Folks it takes *skill* to shoot 85 and above on these 100 point rounds. And this is what makes the difference between form and no form. I have no doubt that Ron can go right out there and plug whatever he wants on the field.



> I was Happy with that! in 1995 I shoot 4 Trad. 3-D shoots with the same bow, Results out of 146 total targets (56-30-30-30) I hit the vital on 139 took 1st place at all four shoots competing against about 1000plus,300,200,and 100 others.


 Again... It is all about form...You want form? You want to know if you shoot good? That paper tells a lot...and that paper carries right down to shooting 3d, animals, and whatever else. 

Anyone can shoot stumps and say they hit them. Anyone can hang a picture of a deer they shot and tracked. But no-one can hang a picture of the deer that their arrow missed or injured.

Dwayne (Good shooting Ron)


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Soumi,

Don't worry about it. Over the past few days there seems to be a lot of belittling, insulting and name-calling flying around here. I think calling you or whoever else that was directed at an "idiot" was as out of line as the thread a few days ago making fun of physically-disabled hunters. :frown: 

I'd just let it roll off and move on. It sounds like you know exactly what you're doing. :thumbs_up


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## Ia Hawkeye (Mar 3, 2005)

*Good recurve groups*

The question was what's a good recurve group. Didn't say anything about bare-bow, hunting equipment etc. I took it to mean good groups as compared to compounds.

Back in the middle 60's we shot the PAA indoor round. It consisted of 12 ends of 5 arrows , shot at 20 yards at a 3 ring target face . Scoring was bulls eye 5 points (3.2 inch white circle) , a 3 ring and a 1 ring.
I remember seeing many perfect scores shot by the local pros. ( Ed Rhoade, Hugh Shaw, Stan Warner, etc), They all averaged in the middle to high 290's. They all used fingers and shot sights using the best target bows available at the time.

Guess my point is, recurves, shot by top notch shooters are capable of shooting really good groups, Put a recurve in a shooting machine and it will shoot as good a group as will a compound.
The shooter, not the bow style, determines the group size.


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## bowmac (Nov 24, 2005)

*Groups*

I have to admit I am a bowhunter first but do practice plenty on a bag target as well as 3D targets. On my good days I can group 4 to 5" at 20 yards. On my average days 5 to 6". Now on a poor day with Murphys law I usually just go hang up my bow before I get too frustrated and hurt myself or the bow.
I agree completely with RodB on focus. When I am getting tired from shooting and my grouping starts getting eratic. I collect my thoughts and take my time on the last 5 arrows. Shooting Instinctively I literally stare a hole through my target whether it be a bag or a 3D animal. I like to see it as shooting through my mark instead of just at it. Being a 3D shooter also I make my goal as trying to average 8 points per animal regardless of distance. I don't very often make it but it is my goal. My best to date is a 343 out of a possible 400 but there is shoots where I don't even make 300. At my age I have nothing to prove to anybody but myself. I hunt and compete for the enjoyment, when it gets to serious or controls my life it will be time to put my bows away.


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## Abel (Jun 2, 2004)

There's a lot of talkin' goin' on here....

But not very many pictures of those 20 yard groups! 

Hmmmmmm....Very fishy!


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## Soumi (Nov 19, 2006)

Abel said:


> There's a lot of talkin' goin' on here....
> 
> But not very many pictures of those 20 yard groups!
> 
> Hmmmmmm....Very fishy!


We were told pictures don't mean squat. :wink:


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

It depends on your style and what you want to do. Ricky Welch, who can probably out shoot anyone on here, says to not shoot groups using his style. Others like to shoot groups on paper and it doesn't seem to hurt them.

I don't mind shooting groups but do so with my target recurve, usually in the winter. I have shot a field round with my hunting recurve, but I have never shot a 300 round with it and doubt if I ever will.

I usually shoot my deer so close, I don't even need to really practice, let alone group anything.


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## Abel (Jun 2, 2004)

> We were told pictures don't mean squat.


Well, the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


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## davemr (Dec 16, 2006)

*groups at various distances.*

When I am shooting with my sons we usually shoot at 5 to 10 yards. Then wen they are done I move back to about 20 - 30 and my groupings seem to get better or at least remain the same. although I am less consistant at the longer ranges (more wild shots). Do any of you other traditional archers have a problem with accuracy at really close ranges? Do you think it is a matter of aim small miss small or possibly an optical annomoly causing a messed up view of the target a ultra short ranges? 

As for luck When I bought my first long bow I also bought 6 new arrows my very first shot at the archery shop range was a 20 yard target that hit the little x in the bulls eye. Let's just say I came up with a lot of excuses to not pull that arrow. I have yet to shoot that good with that bow since.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

> I usually shoot my deer so close, I don't even need to really practice, let alone group anything.


 How ethical....

let alone encouraging to PETA...


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## cdalsass (Oct 31, 2011)

For what it's worth, they do competency tests for hunters here in New England towns where deer hunts are allowed. In a town in Mass, it's like this: get 6 arrows in a 6" group at 20 yards and you are considered competent.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

cd -

We used to do the same thing, but used a paper deer target from 5 to 25 yds. These days, I believe it's up to the discretion of the instructor, in NY. 

BTW - Welcome to AT, you realize this is a 5 year old thread, right?

Viper1 out.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

DwayneR said:


> If you are TOUCHING the LINE between two rings with your arrow, you score the HIGHER of thw two rings.


Under IFAA rules you have to cut right through the line to get higher score, so NFAA National scores tend to be slightly higher than IFAA world scores.

You don't have to be world class, keeping most arrows within the 4 ring is very respectable, only difference is the world class guys keep all arrows in 4 ring.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Well being how you ask for pictures, here is a couple from last season - I don't have anything newer. 20 yard NFAA Targets. As you can see from the other holes in the target, this is one of my better ends. I usually shoot in the 250-260 range with 269 being my PB. On the Vegas (colored) Face I have shot 368/450 as a PB. The scores are just about the same for me although you shoot 1/2 the arrows and score them 10-1 instead of 5-1.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Another good thing about the NFAA round, it's the same for everybody in the world - and the same that has been used for many years. Easy to compare your scores to anyone world wide today or years past.


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

"I also have a buddy that gives me the "I cant hit paper/clay birds/tagets perfect but put hair/feathers on it and it is meat"....."

That was me. And I say "WAS" because, I never had the desire or the money to shoot clay targets. So, company paid me to go to a sponsored shoot.

50 shooters, I got third. With my old 870.

I have seen alot of guys that can shoot quail that can't shoot clay, but I never saw a guy that can shoot clay not shoot quail.


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

bowmac said:


> I have to admit I am a bowhunter first but do practice plenty on a bag target as well as 3D targets. On my good days I can group 4 to 5" at 20 yards. On my average days 5 to 6". Now on a poor day with Murphys law I usually just go hang up my bow before I get too frustrated and hurt myself or the bow.
> I agree completely with RodB on focus. When I am getting tired from shooting and my grouping starts getting eratic. I collect my thoughts and take my time on the last 5 arrows. Shooting Instinctively I literally stare a hole through my target whether it be a bag or a 3D animal. I like to see it as shooting through my mark instead of just at it. Being a 3D shooter also I make my goal as trying to average 8 points per animal regardless of distance. I don't very often make it but it is my goal. My best to date is a 343 out of a possible 400 but there is shoots where I don't even make 300. At my age I have nothing to prove to anybody but myself. I hunt and compete for the enjoyment, when it gets to serious or controls my life it will be time to put my bows away.


I agree. By the way, has anyone told you, you look quite a bit like fred bear?


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## CaptJack (Apr 20, 2005)

this is a good thread about hitting a paper plate

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1614042


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

centershot said:


> Another good thing about the NFAA round, it's the same for everybody in the world - and the same that has been used for many years. Easy to compare your scores to anyone world wide today or years past.


I find that NFAA not following IFAA scoring or equipment rules makes it very hard for me to compare my scores with Americans. IFAA you have cut through the line NFAA you only have to touch the line, it's got to add around 10 points to NFAA scores.

When I start indoor season I'll run two score cards at once, one IFAA the other NFAA and compare the score difference.


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## cannonman (Nov 29, 2008)

All I know is that if nobody else is looking and I don't have to provide pictures, I shoot pretty freakin good. Otherwise, it's just not my day.:wink:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Steve,

With no line between the 5 and 4 rings, I don't think the top scores would be much different. I don't suspect the best scoring recurve shooters spend much, if any, time in the 3 ring. Now, X count would be different, but not so much the numerical scores.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Steve, while some of the particulars may be different you still should be able to obtain a few targets and score them like the NFAA states and be able to compare scores. For us Americans the NFAA target is the most popular - Worldwide the FITA style targets seem to be more popular. Either way the game is common, same target, same distance - much easier and more fair comparison than 3D, or the "I can shoot 3" groups at 30 yards" estimates. If you can score in the 280's - then you are among the very best shooters in the world.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

agree about 5 ring, forgot about that, thanks guys

Indoors isn't a strong area for me, 260's in tourney 270's in training last season, haven't started this season yet.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

I just read this whole thread not realizing it was a zombie until nearly the end. But it does remind me of the guys I shoot 3D with. Most are hunters and manage to kill a deer or two during the season. They do this inspite of their horrible marksmanship as exhibited each Sunday morning throughout our 3D season.

This will anger some but I have to say it: Hunting may have its difficulties but making the shot is not one of them. Most shoot their deer at such close range that great skill in not required. They kill their deer with terrible hits that still manage to clip an artery or vital part. No matter that they missed their mark by 12 inches at 15 yards. A shot in the liver is a dead deer every time. A shot in the femoral artery is as good as one in the top of the heart. Heavily bleeding animals make champions of lots of lousy archers. Killing a deer with a bow is easy. Accurate shooting of a bow is not so easy.

So let's not use the "I get a deer every year" line to prove our ability with a bow. Only great scores on paper or foam animals can do that over a long period of time.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Shibumi said:


> This will anger some but I have to say it: Hunting may have its difficulties but making the shot is not one of them.


How much time have you spent hunting?



Shibumi said:


> Most shoot their deer at such close range that great skill in not required.


Depends on what skill level you're talking about. To get close to a deer....especially on the ground without a blind...takes alot of skill. To hit a deer in the vitals at close range isn't that hard....unless you take into account dealing with nerves and a live animal...than it can be a different story.



Shibumi said:


> They kill their deer with terrible hits that still manage to clip an artery or vital part.


Who is 'they'? Is that every archer that hunts and uses that as their evidence of being a good shot?



Shibumi said:


> So let's not use the "I get a deer every year" line to prove our ability with a bow.


I don't have a problem if that's how a person tries to convey their ability.



Shibumi said:


> Only great scores on paper or foam animals can do that over a long period of time.


I disagree! There are some archers, who do struggle with target panic in a tournament type situation, who aren't bothered with it while out stump shooting or hunting and therefore don't shoot at paper targets.

Here's a video of a guy who doesn't need to shoot a target with scoring rings to prove that he's any good :wink:






Ray :shade:


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Shibumi said:


> So let's not use the "I get a deer every year" line to prove our ability with a bow. Only great scores on paper or foam animals can do that over a long period of time.


Really? I'm not sure I would offer such a statement absent actual hunting experience.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

I've shot and killed 3 deer as a young man with a Shulz longbow. All from the ground inside 20 yards. I no longer hunt because the experience did not excite me. In fact, I have a harder time now making a shot at a 3D tournament that means something to me than shooting a deer. 

When I killed those deer years ago, I do not recall feeling excited or nervous. When watching them all walking in I was making the shot in my head long before they got to me. Once inside a given radius the shot was an anti-climax. I felt like I couldn't miss and I did not. Most hunters get excited. But I have come to realize that I am not a hunter. Live deer were just another target for me back then.

As for skill in hunting? What's so hard about sitting still in wait of a deer out in the woods? If not moving around much or farting too often or loudly is a skill, well I've got that skill. Frankly, sitting on a log (like I did back then) or sitting in tree in wait of a deer is nothing at all. When some stupid animal comes along you simply try not to move too quickly and make your shot. Big deal. I did this 3 out of 3 times and quit. Hunting is overratted if you ask me.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Shibumi said:


> I no longer hunt because the experience did not excite me. In fact, I have a harder time now making a shot at a 3D tournament that means something to me than shooting a deer. When I killed those deer years ago, I do not recall feeling excited or nervous. When watching them all walking in I was making the shot in my head long before they got to me. Once inside a given radius the shot was an anti-climax. I felt like I couldn't miss and I did not. Most hunters get excited. But I have come to realize that I am not a hunter.


Different strokes for different folks! Nothing more...nothing less. Ya gotta do what trips your trigger :wink:



Shibumi said:


> As for skill in hunting? What's so hard about sitting still in wait of a deer out in the woods?


I'd have to say...that in itself doesn't take much skill unless you consider patience a skill :wink:



Shibumi said:


> If not moving around much or farting too often or loudly is a skill, well I've got that skill.


Oh yeah...you don't have any skill until you can fart your ABC's :wink:



Shibumi said:


> When some stupid animal comes along you simply try not to move too quickly and make your shot. Big deal. I did this 3 out of 3 times and quit. Hunting is overratted if you ask me.


It depends on where you hunt, how you hunt and what you're hunting that determines how much skill you have.

Consistently finding deer in an area you're unfamiliar with by reading a topo map and/or by reading the animal sign...takes skill. Calling an animal within bow range takes skill. Sitting hap-hazordly in the woods and hoping deer walk by doesn't take much skill at all. Stalking consistently within bow range of deer takes skill....and alot of it.

I'm glad you found something that gets you excited...but there really is no need to knock someone else's passion just because you don't find the same excitement in it.

Ray :shade:


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

To each his own. Personally walking around a club sticking arrows into foam animals doesn't do a thing for me insofar as an excitement factor; however, I'm sure there are some very skilled archers out doing just that. Does it make them better archers than those that choose to take bow afield for whatever game they chase, not in my opinion, it's just a different game that we play.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Wolf, I'm sure a guy hiking the open mountains looking for sheep with a bow would have a real chore on his hands. Some forms of hunting are hard both physically and for getting in range of your animal. Open ground stalking like in hunts above the tree line has to take real skill.

But the average whitetail hunter in the east mostly sits in wait reading a bad novel or playing with his iphone. Should a deer have the misfortune of interupting his effort to stay awake, then, and only then, does the "hunter" do anything like hunting. He only has to keep somewhat still and shoot his deer when the beast is looking away or otherwise distracted. I've done it and it's not hard. The fact that trad magazines and advertisments are filled with photos of successful bow hunters further points out what I put forth - that hunting with a bow is easy as practiced by most hunters.

I don't dislike hunters and still shoot birds with a shotgun. I miss half of what I shoot at with a shotgun. Not so much the bow. That has proven a sure thing for me and many others.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Shibumi said:


> I've shot and killed 3 deer as a young man with a Shulz longbow. All from the ground inside 20 yards. I no longer hunt because the experience did not excite me. In fact, I have a harder time now making a shot at a 3D tournament that means something to me than shooting a deer.
> 
> When I killed those deer years ago, I do not recall feeling excited or nervous. When watching them all walking in I was making the shot in my head long before they got to me. Once inside a given radius the shot was an anti-climax. I felt like I couldn't miss and I did not. Most hunters get excited. But I have come to realize that I am not a hunter. Live deer were just another target for me back then.
> 
> As for skill in hunting? What's so hard about sitting still in wait of a deer out in the woods? If not moving around much or farting too often or loudly is a skill, well I've got that skill. Frankly, sitting on a log (like I did back then) or sitting in tree in wait of a deer is nothing at all. When some stupid animal comes along you simply try not to move too quickly and make your shot. Big deal. I did this 3 out of 3 times and quit. Hunting is overratted if you ask me.


.....Shibumi, I gotta say that the last part of this post made me laugh, seriously.....I have a hard time not moving around, and if NOT farting loudly, or too often is a hunting skill, then I am pretty much a lost cause....L.O.L...I dont know Who You are, but I do like Your style....Something makes me feel like You are just on here to wind folks up a bit...And that's O.K. by me.....L.O.L.............Harperman


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Harperman, not trying to wind anyone up. Just stating things as I see them. I'm not emotionally invested in bowhunting. It's not a religion to me. Those who wish to take offense probably find some morsel of truth in what I say and somewhere deep inside they know I'm correct and it kills them in little bits at a time.

I'm a target shooter who shoots mostly 3D because that is all the archery competition available in my area. So l shoot rubber bears and stuff like that. It sure ain't hunting. Hell, real hunting ain't really hunting if you ask me. LOL


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Shibumi said:


> Harperman, not trying to wind anyone up. Just stating things as I see them. I'm not emotionally invested in bowhunting. It's not a religion to me. Those who wish to take offense probably find some morsel of truth in what I say and somewhere deep inside they know I'm correct and it kills them in little bits at a time.
> 
> I'm a target shooter who shoots mostly 3D because that is all the archery competition available in my area. So l shoot rubber bears and stuff like that. It sure ain't hunting. Hell, real hunting ain't really hunting if you ask me. LOL


Really.... real hunting isn't real hunting... maybe you'd be kind enough to expound on how real hunting in your opinion isn't "real" hunting?

Aloha... :beer:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Shibumi said:


> Wolf, I'm sure a guy hiking the open mountains looking for sheep with a bow would have a real chore on his hands. Some forms of hunting are hard both physically and for getting in range of your animal. Open ground stalking like in hunts above the tree line has to take real skill.


At least I got you to admit that :wink:



Shibumi said:


> But the average whitetail hunter in the east mostly sits in wait reading a bad novel or playing with his iphone. Should a deer have the misfortune of interupting his effort to stay awake, then, and only then, does the "hunter" do anything like hunting. He only has to keep somewhat still and shoot his deer when the beast is looking away or otherwise distracted.


In that regards...I agree. Sitting in a tree and waiting for a deer to pass by is fairly easy.

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

cossack said:


> To each his own. Personally walking around a club sticking arrows into foam animals doesn't do a thing for me insofar as an excitement factor; however, I'm sure there are some very skilled archers out doing just that. Does it make them better archers than those that choose to take bow afield for whatever game they chase, not in my opinion, it's just a different game that we play.


I agree. To each their own. But, that being said, what makes a person a better shooter is practice. And you can get a lot more shooting in with a weekend of 3D shooting than you can with a weekend of hunting. Won't make you a better stalker but I do think it can certainly help make you a better shooter.


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Couldn't agree more, Warbow.

The only way to imitate anxiety as in shooting at game is to shoot 3D and have the result be important to you. Make shooting a great score your goal. Only then will drawing down on a bedded deer made of foam take on the kind of importance that rattles many hunting archers. You have to get used to shooting before an audience for score to learn how to control your body's nervous behavior. You can get used to it. Buck Fever is just hillybilly jargon for target panic.

Target panic makes cowards of everyone at some time in their shooting career. I did not suffer Buck Fever as a kid shooting deer because I didn't care if I missed. The deer was not important to me. But the scoring rings of the 3D target are important and I do get anxious at times in 3D. Just like real hunters of flesh and blood. A hunter should shoot 3D and make it count.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

cossack said:


> Really? I'm not sure I would offer such a statement absent actual hunting experience.


 our thinking is somewhat aligned on this question of hunting with no hunting experience and the provided pronouncement.... :grin:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Shibumi said:


> The only way to imitate anxiety as in shooting at game is to shoot 3D and have the result be important to you.


Why in the world would any archer WANT to create anxiety if they don't experience it in the first place with their particular archery goals and situations.

The only real need to try and recreate it...would be to overcome it...IF it's already an issue.



Shibumi said:


> You have to get used to shooting before an audience for score to learn how to control your body's nervous behavior.


No...you don't have to do it that way. There are other ways if an archer is stuggling with any form of target panic.



Shibumi said:


> You can get used to it. Buck Fever is just hillybilly jargon for target panic.


Yes...a person can learn to overcome it...and...target panic is really just pompous target archer's jargon for buck fever :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Pompous - good word. I am pompous, that's for damn sure. It's because I'm only an average shooter but lightyears ahead of most hunters where accuracy is concerned.


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

Shibumi said:


> Pompous - good word. I am pompous, that's for damn sure. It's because I'm only an average shooter but lightyears ahead of most hunters where accuracy is concerned.


HA HA AHAHHA.........."pompous" isn't even close. But being "light years ahead" of most hunters? Doubt it. And the 3 hunts, 3 deer story? Doubt it even more.

Average shooter? Probably we found a "morsel of truth"


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## Shibumi (Nov 25, 2011)

Highstrung: I happen to live on a farm surrounded by other farms and conservation lands. I can (and do) see more whitetail deer in one day than most hunters see in a season of hanging from trees. Once last winter my wife called me over to the window to see a herd of more than 40 whitetails that were yarding up in our backyard. I estimate the number because I stopped counting at 25 or so. They were milling around so much it was hard to count them.

I tell you this to illustrate the fact hunting success is largely predicated on seeing large numbers of deer in the first place. As the duck hunter says, "You have to shoot your gun where the ducks are flying." So I see deer every day all year round. I'm inured to them. To see one in the woods does not make my heart quicken. When I hunted deer years ago, I never felt a thing happen inside when watching my intended target get closer. Hell, I'd been in that position almost every day of my life. You do get accustom to being close to large game animals if you happen to live in an area like I do.

So come the day I chose to shoot a few deer, it was no big deal. After I shot the third deer, even while I was thinking about shooting the last one, I was already thinking about the bloody mess I had ahead of me - the field dressing, the prep of the meat. That's not a pleasant thing for me. The actual shot to come was not on my conscious mind - I knew for dead certain I'd score.

I said before, I'm not a hunter - I'm a shooter pure and simple. I like archery and I like handgun and rifle competition too. I live for stressful competitive moments against other like-minded men who love competition.

Hunting is not a competition and frankly it bores the living hell out of me. This is why I did not get nervous shooting a few lousy deer many years ago.

No need for any of you hunters to get bent out of shape. We simply do not share the same "religion". If I wanted to talk bow hunting I'd have joined one of those other hunting-only bow forums where they ban you for even mentioning 3D or target archery.


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## Highstrung1 (Oct 20, 2010)

So come the day I chose to shoot a few deer, it was no big deal. After I shot the third deer, even while I was thinking about shooting the last one, I was already thinking about the bloody mess I had ahead of me - the field dressing, the prep of the meat. That's not a pleasant thing for me. The actual shot to come was not on my conscious mind - I knew for dead certain I'd score.....

Wow. Now it's three deer in one day! Well, I can certainly see where that would be alot more "boring" that shooting at rubber deer. 

Stay warm and dry, no camo, no dangerous arrow tips, no scouting, no smelly doe urine, no bloody mess, no hauling out dead game, no meat, no tales from the woods......

.......I shot more rubber deer than the other guy!!! HAHAHAHAHA....... made my week.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Shibumi said:


> Hunting is not a competition and frankly it bores the living hell out of me. This is why I did not get nervous shooting a few lousy deer many years ago.
> 
> No need for any of you hunters to get bent out of shape. We simply do not share the same "religion". If I wanted to talk bow hunting I'd have joined one of those other hunting-only bow forums where they ban you for even mentioning 3D or target archery.


Hunting is not Competition... Exactly... that is why there should be no restriction regulations like crossbow seasons and the like.
However, since you don't share the same "religion" you shouldn't be making ridiculous pronouncements about hunting like you have... like hunting isn't really hunting.. You'd never know if you don't hunt now would you. 

There are levels of shooters. I know two guys that shoot 100 yards as easy as I shoot 20. These guys take shots at game at distances I'd not dream of and... most I talk to consider unethical. Although I feel ethics is personal, I'm not willing to condemn someone who can nail a 6" bull at 100 yards... I'd not be doin it but I know a gentleman who legally harvests deer at night with a 22 under Federal observation for the purpose of harvesting venison for slaughter and commercial consumption. Some folks can do in a gopher at several hundred yards, and with setups, people today are shooting elk, sheep, deer, and bear and the like at up to 1000 yards.... Skill sets and competance.... others lose it at 5 yards.... 

That you do good at what you do good at, is laudable. I don't know that I would be dismissing others just because they are "different than *you!*


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## jflars (Sep 4, 2006)

Soumi said:


> Well I'm sorry but pictures of animals with good shots does mean something to me. I really credit the guy who shot the grouse with his bow. That's not an easy thing to do. Personally, I first and foremost am a bowhunter. I practice on the 3d range and in the woods. Never shot paper targets much at all and don't really care too. It might prove who is the best archer but to me that's not the point. The point to me is spending my time in the field and being able to make the shot if it presents itself. If I never get a shot, that's ok too, I'm still in the woods where I love to be. I have no desire to be a target archer and the way I practice does just fine in preparing me for hunting. Peace and Merry Christmas.


 Personally you have my congratulations on the doe Suomi from U.P. for I know how hard it is to focus when faced with the thought of taking an animals life away. I too am a hunter and although I love the sport I realize what feelings of accomplishment and pride can come from excelling in a sport such as target archery. We are archers all of us whether hunters or target guys and deserve much respect in what we do. I hunted with guns all my life and only dabbled in archery in my younger years until recently at age 70 I killed my first deer with a bow, it was a doe and absolutely re-kindled my desire to be in the woods. I'm 75 now and have taken 3 more (all bucks) the last of which was a beautiful basket racked 8 point that my family is having mounted for my birthday.
I wish you all good luck in your endeavors whether it be high scores or special hunts. I believe Archers are a special group and applaud all that you do for the sport.


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## joe_crash (Jun 18, 2012)

Depends on the bow, the arrows, and of course, the shooter. With a Bighorn takedown, #45, shooting broadheads into extruded dow pink insulation sheets (makes a great back stop - you'll never get full penetration, it's cheap as heck - a 4x8 sheet cut down making a backstop about 12 inches thick will stop any arrow from any bow I have - recurve, longbow, or compound, I have to limit my shots on each dot 'cause if I shoot more than 3 arrows, I'm cutting fletching off the ones already there. It really just depends on your dedication - put in the time, you'll be shooting 3-4" groups all day at 20 yards. When I'm at the range, people kind of chuckle when they see me take my longbow out of it's cover, string it, and start shooting. The chuckles stop real fast when they realize I'm outshooting them back to 35 yards, which is the most I'd take a shot hunting and it's the longest I practice at. I usually start at like 7 yards, and move back every shot or two. I shoot instinctive, very much the G. Fred Asbell style of shooting. I was really bummed when they quit making bows. I wouldn't sell mine for any amount. Shooting my longbows it's the same story. I shoot longbows that are made by John Shulz, bamboo laminated glass backed, and they are wicked shooters. And you won't get tired carrying one all day if you're still hunting. 
No, I don't have a pic, but next time I shoot, I'll try to take some. Of course, it would only prove anything if someone shot a video clip - otherwise someone would say I'm standing 8 feet away, lol. 
The smoothest recurves I've ever shot have been Black Widows. Unfortunately, I don't own any. And, after a back injury, I may have to consider selling my Shulz longbow. Anyone interested? Four laminations of bamboo, black glass. Perfect condition. Price? Well, since no more are going to be made ... I don't think the $800 mark is too high at all. Take a look at what most custom traditional bows cost - and you'll NEVER gonna see a brand new Shulz - and I take care of mine better than I do my kid, dog or car. Wife is a toss up, lol.


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## hoythunter3d (Oct 5, 2011)

i was a compund shooter for about 6 years and somedays i could snipe tennis balls at 30 yards all day and some days i couldnt hit water if i fell out of a boat. when i came into the trad world and started shooting alot i found to be very pleased to keep my groups in a paper plate at 20-30 yards, when i fist started i was so mad i couldnt put tennis ball sized groups at that distance. i shoot true instinctive burrying my eyes into were i need to hit and letting it fly


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