# How to build trust in your shot execution?



## N7709K

Close games, blank bale, more close games, workin back slowly to 18m, more close games


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## jrdrees

My experience has been an ebb and flow of confidence, as I gain confidence I'm very quick to get overconfident and speed up my hinge rotation... then I score poorly enough to get hurt feelings and I go back to the drawing board. Having everything written down is key, bow specs, scores, and stuff. Sometimes you find out your string was stretching or peep moved up the string, happens to a lot of folks, but if you know that stuff is on, it's just you, I mean me!


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## aread

N7709K said:


> Close games, blank bale, more close games, workin back slowly to 18m, more close games


Bingo! This is the tried and true way to do it. 

The hard part and the part that takes discipline is the working back slowly. Don't move back to a longer distance until you can't execute a bad shot at the current distance.

One other thing is that you have to be practicing the right execution. If you are not doing it right, perfect consistency won't help you. I've learned this the hard way. :sad:

Allen


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## Blue X

N7709K said:


> Close games, blank bale, more close games, workin back slowly to 18m, more close games


I am with this guy to a T.

Only thing I might add speeding up the tempo. I like to catch the center on the first trip thru. When you get to anchor and the sight is in the center why not execute it then. Theres no reason to let it be in the center then move then try to get it back in the center again and then execute. Catch it the first trip thru. 5, 5.5 second shot timing will almost always outscore 7 or more second shot timing. Both can be consistent and seemingly good but the 7 sec shot time will have bigger groups. You think buy aiming longer that you can aim better but thats a myth. When you come of the center after the first time its there, theres no way to control where tension builds in your form and therefore no way to know where your followthru will direct your arrows. Jar lickers or bottom jar lickers at best. but the few that go bad will go way bad. 

with the longer shot times the sight is on the target then off again because of some physical reason like fatigue. When it moves it is usually down as you try to fight it back up. It gets misdiagnosed as tp or to long of draw length etc. Actually it is a result of not being efficient. When the sight hit the center of the target the first time, you have max 3 seconds (really 1.5 in the middle of the 3 seconds) of uninterrupted focus. Catch the center the first trip tru and get that release in action and learn to shoot an aggressive shot. 

Blue X


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## ron w

exactly....
up close where that spot is big and easy to stay in is where you teach your shot process that it's good to be in the x-ring...that's where you are supposed to be. in these drills, you need to also train it that nothing other than a perfect set up ad execution will be tolerated, by letting down on every single little glich you come upon during the execution of each and every shot. 
you are essentially teaching the shot execution to be cold blooded about running. it has to not care if it runs, or not, it will only run on a perfect set up. the letting down reinforces this and teaches it that a let down, has the same value as a good shot that goes to the x-ring. that is,... the let down is saving a miss from happening, by refusing to let a poorly running shot that won't be worth 10 points, continue, is the same value as allowing a shot that is running along as it should and earns that 10 points.


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## possum trapper

for me up close doesn't work for the most part because I can't lie to myself and the shoots are shot at 20 yrds but that doesn't mean it wont work for whoever.really depends on how your wired.

I need to have that sight picture at 20 yrds and my pin in the middle.

I would center your dot or pin don't aim at the center and really worry about soft hands and execute the correct muscles.they will go in the middle if your focus is on your body parts like soft hands and back muscles.

the front end isn't as important as everyone thinks as far as pin movement but tense muscles are IMO, if you concentrate on muscles you wont be micro managing your aiming device by turning it off and on during the shot.good luck


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## EPLC

possum trapper said:


> for me up close doesn't work for the most part because I can't lie to myself and the shoots are shot at 20 yrds but that doesn't mean it wont work for whoever.really depends on how your wired.
> 
> I need to have that sight picture at 20 yrds and my pin in the middle.
> 
> I would center your dot or pin don't aim at the center and really worry about soft hands and execute the correct muscles.they will go in the middle if your focus is on your body parts like soft hands and back muscles.
> 
> the front end isn't as important as everyone thinks as far as pin movement but tense muscles are IMO, if you concentrate on muscles you wont be micro managing your aiming device by turning it off and on during the shot.good luck


With the exception of the Steelers logo , we are in agreement. Tension in the front end is a killer. I have to work on this constantly.


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## ron w

that's just it possum, the short baling specifically teaches your shot process not to turn it on and off, if you do it right. turning off, means a 'let down" ...a refusal to run because it is turning on and off. the short baling teaches "turn it on and run it right, or turn it off, entirely and start over.....there is a difference there. the point is not to force the shot by letting it turn itself on and off. either it's on and the shot is running correctly, or it's off because the shot was not running correctly, so you refused the process, by making the decision to end it by letting down. the "default process" so to speak is a positive one,.. that of running automatically when the bow is drawn, one of being turned on when you get to anchor,...the decision to run should not have to be "made" it should happen positively and automatically as an integral part of the whole shot process in action. the only decision that should be being made is the one that refuses the poorly running set up and/or process....the decision to let down and that decision should be reinforced by the let down, not by a "turning off" of part of the process while still at full draw. that let down is the "reset' ...the, "OK you guys, enough silliness, if you're not going to run right, you're not going to run at all". either the whole system runs right, or the whole system shuts down....no in betweens.
if you watch a line of good shooters you will some of them occasionally let down for what looks like no reason, outwardly. but within their shot process, what I just explained is exactly what has just happened. something about the shot wasn't running right and they shut the entire process down , to start over....no in betweens.....either run right, or don't run at all. that is where I say , your shot process has to be cold blooded about running or not running. either way, run or not run, it doesn't matter, but it will only be allowed to run, when it is running right.


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## SlickNickel

N7709K said:


> Close games, blank bale, more close games, workin back slowly to 18m, more close games


I agree here. The problem with this method for a lot of people though, is it takes work. A lot of people don't want to put in the time and work that it takes. Everyone wants a quick fix. When I first started shooting a hinge style release, I shot probably 3000 shots at less than 5 yds. It got me off to a good start, but I still have to go back and work at it.


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## Padgett

I am a guy who has shot aroung 30 or so 60x rounds of 5-spot and I do a lot of indoor shooting during the winter months, for me I know when a shot is going to be a iffy shot well before I choose to allow the arrow to go to the target. This year just after january I think I made the decision to not send arrows to the target when I already knew something didn't feel right.

It could be anything:

1. my pin settles in on the edge of the x instead of the center.

2. I start rocking on the balls of my feet.

3. My grip isn't where it should be after getting to anchor.

4. My mind wanders listening to some stupid hunting story being told behind me.

5. I start to run out of breath and the shot hasn't happened.

6. my pin does a funny jump that I wasn't expecting.

There are tons of things that could happen during the shot well within the time where you can choose to let down, I know what a really solid shot feels like because I shoot tens of thousands of them per year so when anything happens during a shot that feels funny I simply LET DOWN. I then take a few breaths and try again.


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## montigre

ron w said:


> ...the decision to run should not have to be "made" it should happen positively and automatically as an integral part of the whole shot process in action. the only decision that should be being made is the one that refuses the poorly running set up and/or process....that let down is the "reset' ...the, "OK you guys, enough silliness, if you're not going to run right, you're not going to run at all". *either the whole system runs right, or the whole system shuts down....no in betweens*.


This is probably the best statement of the thread. If everyone could do this simple task 100% of the time, we'd all be much better shooters!!


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## northern rednek

I did the short game thing last year before winter league and it did make a difference. I think once spring came I got distracted by 3d and shooting distance. Still months before indoor so maybe I'll start doing the short game and baling.


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## possum trapper

Ron im not saying short game doesnt work.it works for alot of guys i know.it doesnt work for me.4 yards 10 yards 15 yards will work BUT the game is played at 20yds and have seen it personally to where guys go back to the same ole same ole when they step back to 20.a few options out there for guys to try and see what works for them. there are no wrong answers here.the only wrong answer is not trying all the options to see if you can better your game


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## ron w

I've been involved in allot of different sports in my years and archery is easily the most " high maintenance oriented" sport I ever did. that shot process and execution, has to be maintained on a regular basis or it deteriorates. I think this is something that makes the difference between the top pros and all the other pros that are in that "also ran" group. the top guys realize this accept it and do the maintenance it demands on a regular basis.
I see it in us regular shooters, as well. we post about having a problem, doing the 10 yard baling for a while, and now our problem is starting to show back up... once you have a problem, regular sessions of short yardage drills, are absolutely necessary to keep that problem subdued. the problem is actually your "default process", so to speak, the process that your mind naturally generates, when it is approached with the task of shooting your bow and the drills at regular intervals are what keep the "default" from surfacing. allot of this comes from the incorrect, so to speak, way we learned to shoot and that becomes our "default process" that our brains fall back on when we experience the pressures of shooting well. it takes regular sessions of these drill, to keep our brains from diverting to that default system, when the pressure is on. eventually, if we work on it seriously and often enough, we teach are able "new default" to our shot process and we have no more problem, as long as we remind the shot process, what the new default is from time to time.
in retrospect, it's clear how important it is to learn correctly from the beginning....that establishes the default and if that default is the only way our brains know, we are fortunate to not need all that much re-training as the distractions and pressures that make our shot process fall back on that default, arise.
it's about like a bow, that keeps a tune well, all we have to do is check it once in a while, just to make sure it's still there.


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## aread

possum trapper said:


> ... and have seen it personally to where guys go back to the same ole same ole when they step back to 20....


If an archer shoots the short game then immediately steps back to 20, he's lucky if he gets the "same ole same ole". Usually, he gets a little worse. 

Like everything else, you have to do it right to get the best results. A big part of the short game is developing confidence & trust in your shot. You can't build this without a gradual transition from short to competition distances. You have to do it in 1 or 2 yard increments. If you don't, you will very likely end up worse than before. You also have to be disciplined and honest enough with yourself to step up closer if you aren't shooting well at a particular distance. 

I've read too many posts like yours here on AT where a guy writes that he tried blank bale or the short game and it didn't work for him. My guess is that 95%+ didn't gradually increase the distance over a period of several weeks. 

One that sticks in my mind from many years ago, the guy wrote that he'd started blank bale on Monday, shot it exclusively all week and the following Sunday shot his worse score ever at a tournament. There were some questions about what he worked on while he was shooting blank bale. It turned out that he was just flinging arrows at the bale and expecting some sort of magic to make him a better shooter. It just doesn't work that way.

You have to start close and gradually work back and every arrow should be shot with the intensity of an arrow shot in a big tournament shoot off.

JMHO,
Allen


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## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> Ron im not saying short game doesnt work.it works for alot of guys i know.it doesnt work for me.4 yards 10 yards 15 yards will work BUT the game is played at 20yds and have seen it personally to where guys go back to the same ole same ole when they step back to 20.a few options out there for guys to try and see what works for them. there are no wrong answers here.the only wrong answer is not trying all the options to see if you can better your game


possum, what it amounts to is that if you can't do it up close you can't do it farther back. People may not like it, may not want to do it, but the short game does work. First, if all going well, it's a confidence builder. Within practicing the short game you can find something within bow fit, form or sights that needs addressed. Corrections in place or added as you practice, farther and farther back you practice. And practice doesn't stop at 20 yards. Farther back might give more insight to better shooting.

Yes, I R one of those who doesn't care for "up close and personal," but I do it. That spots suck I use a leveled vertical line, 10 feet and as far back as I can see the line and I use a leveled horizontal line and do the same.


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## ron w

the idea is that the "default process", needs to be taught where it can be learned easily,....up close , where the aiming process has an easy time of staying in the little circle, so you can concentrate of teaching the default process and not have to focus so strongly on sight alignment. it cannot be learned at the "blind bale"...there has to be an element of aiming involved, because it is aiming that the "default system" needs to work along side of. the physical activity of the "release execution", can be learned sub consciously at the blind bale, because the muscles that run the release execution, have no input in aiming, but it is when you need to aim and run the release process that the hard stuff begins...... when you have to apply that release execution to the focus of aiming at the same time, one or the other has to run by itself and run within the whole shot process at the right time.
aiming uses conscious sight to drive commands (eye-hand coordination) that the shot process is executing, there has to be a "default process" for the release mechanism to be able to run by itself, without interfering with what is going on with the aiming commands being processed. when that interference exists, confidence in the processing of commands for the entire shot execution takes a dive. when you add to that the difficulty of focus needed to keep the pin or dot centered at 20 yards, it doesn't have a chance to reliably learn the default...because learning that default requires full attention for a while. hence...we move the bale up close where we can stay in the middle easily and our processing of commands for the entire shot execution, can happen in a more comfortable setting, until it has been learned reliably. 
thus is the importance of learning correctly right off the bat. that default needs to be correct, because as the distance get further, it has to be counted on to be correct and reliable as the focus to aim becomes more needy of guidance. 
you can see,...some who has a few bad habits to start with, will have a much longer and arduous task of building and installing a reliable "default" in the shot execution, because it not only has to learn the default, it has to learn the new default "stronger", I order for the new default to be the one that is fallen back on. both the old default and the new default will be there ready to process the necessary commands, the shot process, has to recognize which of the two is the better one to rely on. 
when we learn correctly right away, there is only one default to choose....it's the "command center" the shot process knows to run to. 
in order for that new default to be chosen reliably we need to do more frequent short yardage shot training, so that it is right up front, fresh and the path to it is clear and easily identified, so it's ready to do the command processing that the whole shot execution needs when it needs it.. the better this process works and the easier it is for the shot process to fall back on that "one and only correct" default command center, the more confident your shot execution will be. 
now, it gets to be recognized as that "one and only correct command center" by running the short yardage bale drills where you are aiming and letting down on any little deviation form perfect execution. each time you let down, you are telling the shot process, "no,... that is not the right command center". hence, if there is only one command center that exists, and it has been taught correctly, there's no chance that a incorrect choice can be made and the shot execution builds confidence because it realizes that when it falls back on it's default, it is the right one....because it's the only one there. 
this can be established when someone decides to become better at their shooting , it just takes an extra amount of short correct baling to train the shot process which default to rely on.


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## Strodav

My coach suggested 3 exercises that helps me with shot execution. First, blank bale at 5 ft, eyes closed and "feel" every shot - smooth continuous stretch after settling in. Second, larger spot (vegas or 5 spot target at, say, 5 yds), come to full draw, settle in, let it float for a little longer than it takes for a normal shot, then let down. Third, larger spot (vegas or 5 spot target at, say, 5 yds, to 10 yds), draw and settle in, then not stopping, no hesitation, just a smooth continuous stretch through setup into execution. Constant struggle, but it gets easier the more I practice. Many times, I'll set my ipad mini up on a tripod and record my shot cycle using Coach's Eye. Helps me identify issues like tension in my release hand for forearm.

I find that when my execution is not smooth my float is not what it should be because I'm having problems with the static side (stance, bow hand, forearm, elbow, wrist, shoulder) and, as Padgett says, I have to learn how to let down when it's not quite right instead of trying to "rescue" the shot.

I keep telling myself to let if float and trust your shots. When I do, I shoot better.


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## possum trapper

im not arguing here guys and i truely understand what guys do at up close but you can make alot of mistakes up close and still shoot a 30x vegas round.if you make a mistake at 60 yrds its not going in the middle.ive shot at the pro level for 4yrs now and won pretty much every major indoor tourney at the ametuer level.for ME none of this was done at 10 yrds...all of my 29 and 30x vegas rounds were done at 20 yds.i would rather concentrate on my muscles and my mind to make them go in the middle

just because you can pound it all day at 5 and 10 yrds doesnt mean your accomplishing anything mental or physical.

i had to have me time on the line to find my inner self and believe in myself to close out 119x in louisville for the win in bhfs.

it all comes back to the mental game and believing im yourself.if you can get it done at close range good for you some guys need it

i found out real quick if you use tense muscles at 60 yrds your not gonna like the outcome

shooting at the highest level involves using the dumbest muscles to execute the shot so the bow can shoot the arrow and the where you can start having confindence in yourself and thinking positive on the line.just execute your dumb muscles and if i can take a quote from a very good professional "learn how to shoot scared"


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## ron w

possum, 
I understand you clearly, what I can say is that if you would talk to just about every upper level coach on the world. i'd wager that almost all of them, if not every one of them, will tell you that execution confidence comes at the short yardage bales when done properly. that is the key...done properly. flogging the bale with arrows, is not doing it properly. dissecting your shot and working on each individual element of the execution, until they are all behaving individually, then combining them into the complete execution, is doing it properly...that is what it takes. 
there are times when we need to concentrate our efforts on only one or two elements that are giving us trouble. 
the blind bale is the order here, running your shot and concentrating on what that specific element feels like and training it to run the way it should, by doing the let down drill and then integrating what has just been worked on, in it's corrected execution, into your shot process. 
you simply cannot do that at 20 yards , because you need to concentrate on sight alignment. if you don't, you are doing the same thing as short yardage baling, but at 20 yards.
the point is that the vast majority of upper level coaches will suggest the same training sequence, because it works universally, plain and simple, when it's done right.


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## possum trapper

i agree that most coaches do ask that out of their students and i will work for alot of people.IF it worked good enough everyone and their sisters would be doing it.go out and find you a coach and work on things.ive said it 100 times what works for 1 person may not work for the next.But one thing in common with the best is how they think.yes you may get better shooting up close if you really pay attention to your details of execution otherwise your just flinging arrows......physiclly we know if we do the same thing each and everytime they should be in the middle.BUT who out there is thinking the same thing shot after shot,between ends?what are you thinking after you hammered the baby X?you shouldnt be admiring the shot.the shot that matters the most is the one you feel.

the op ask about how to close out a 300 round.well he is 29 out of 30 on ten rings....we dont need to reinvent the wheel here cuz he is holding low or pumching the trigger.he is 99% there with trusting his execution.to me thats pretty good odds so there isnt a whole lot of tweaking to do.find your inner self believe in yourself and be disipline with your muscle execution and things will fall in line


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## possum trapper

Padgett said:


> I am a guy who has shot aroung 30 or so 60x rounds of 5-spot and I do a lot of indoor shooting during the winter months, for me I know when a shot is going to be a iffy shot well before I choose to allow the arrow to go to the target. This year just after january I think I made the decision to not send arrows to the target when I already knew something didn't feel right.
> 
> It could be anything:
> 
> 1. my pin settles in on the edge of the x instead of the center.
> 
> 2. I start rocking on the balls of my feet.
> 
> 3. My grip isn't where it should be after getting to anchor.
> 
> 4. My mind wanders listening to some stupid hunting story being told behind me.
> 
> 5. I start to run out of breath and the shot hasn't happened.
> 
> 6. my pin does a funny jump that I wasn't expecting.
> 
> There are tons of things that could happen during the shot well within the time where you can choose to let down, I know what a really solid shot feels like because I shoot tens of thousands of them per year so when anything happens during a shot that feels funny I simply LET DOWN. I then take a few breaths and try again.


what's so funny is that happens to all of us.I was shooting Lancaster a couple years ago and Duane Price was a couple lanes down and if anyone know Duane his voice is different than everyone else's and he was talking deer hunting.It was tough trying to listen to the story and shoot.Tell's ya where my head was at that day....not where is was suppose to be


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## ron w

Tell's ya where my head was at that day....not where is was suppose to be 
that's the trouble with most guys that say the close baling doesn't help them. they don't understand why it will do what it does, or what it is supposed to do. they simply stand there flinging arrow into the bale and have no real constructive agenda to work on. archery is sport that demands a certain level of understanding how your brain works under the pressure and what is going on (between your ears) when you execute of a complicated physical action. the better you understand this, the more you will understand how short baling will help.
some of my posts get long and maybe boring for some people, but it's hard to explain what is going on, with few words. the action of a good shot is much less complicated than it's verbal description, some people just don't want to apply that verbal description to their shooting.


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## possum trapper

fyi Ron 647 that day for qualification score.....im sorry that i cant live up to your perfect expectations but i have went out and shot some good and great scores in actually indoor tourneys.

just giving MY perspective on how i do things which may or may not work for those looking at this thread.

true confindence for ME comes at 20yrds and i know alot of guys shooting awesome scores doing the exact thing.




you gotta do what works for you and if thats up close by all means do it.


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## EPLC

possum trapper said:


> im not arguing here guys and i truely understand what guys do at up close but you can make alot of mistakes up close and still shoot a 30x vegas round.if you make a mistake at 60 yrds its not going in the middle.ive shot at the pro level for 4yrs now and won pretty much every major indoor tourney at the ametuer level.for ME none of this was done at 10 yrds...all of my 29 and 30x vegas rounds were done at 20 yds.i would rather concentrate on my muscles and my mind to make them go in the middle
> 
> just because you can pound it all day at 5 and 10 yrds doesnt mean your accomplishing anything mental or physical.
> 
> i had to have me time on the line to find my inner self and believe in myself to close out 119x in louisville for the win in bhfs.
> 
> it all comes back to the mental game and believing im yourself.if you can get it done at close range good for you some guys need it
> 
> i found out real quick if you use tense muscles at 60 yrds your not gonna like the outcome
> 
> shooting at the highest level involves using the dumbest muscles to execute the shot so the bow can shoot the arrow and the where you can start having confindence in yourself and thinking positive on the line.just execute your dumb muscles and if i can take a quote from a very good professional "learn how to shoot scared"


Again we agree... I have been a short range shooter for years and there are some down sides to this type of practice. The biggest problem is you get away with things at short range that you could never get away with at long range. While I do think there is definite value to this routine, you have to be very careful not to get sloppy. There should be a definite purpose in mind when shooting short range or it can easily provide a false sense of security and promote bad habit forming. I personally find practice at real world distances provide much more value as you can't get away with the things you can at 5-10 yards.


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## aread

I think some of you are confusing normal practice routines with the drills that answer the OP's question. He asked how to build trust in your shot, not how to practice. If you are drilling the center of the X at 20 yards, then at 20 yards you will have plenty of confidence. However, if at 20 yards, you are scattering the arrow all around the X ring and missing it occasionally, then the way to build confidence is to start close and gradually work back. 

He said that he was switching his attention from the X to the back end of the shot. Shooting only at 20 isn't going to cure this unless the archer has enormous self control. Most of us don't. If the OP had this type of control, he would not have needed to ask the question.

In his case & the case of many others, it's much easier to start close and work on keeping focus on the X through the shot. At 4 yards, an archer isn't worried so much about where the arrow lands. Even if he doesn't consciously watch his execution, he's probably going to get an X on every shot. It's much easier to focus only on the X. This starts building confidence and trust in his shot sequence. Then as he gradually increases the distance he continues to build confidence & trust. 

If an archer can keep his focus on the X at 4 yards with ease, he can probably do it at 5 yards, then at 6 yards etc.

For normal practice, the full tournament distance is definitely necessary. But for a remedial drill to build confidence and trust on your shot sequence , starting short really works well.

Allen


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## EPLC

My point being... if practice (and I define practice as a tool to build ability and confidence) isn't performed with a specific purpose in mind, and with an understanding of "how" whatever is being practiced is done properly (regardless of range) the exercise can do more harm than good. At one point, back when I shot right handed, I had myself shooting perfect 60X 300 games at 14 yards. I could shoot 30X baby X games on the Vegas face at 7-10 yards. That said, I was never able to translate that kind of performance to the real world. Perhaps if I had a shot routine that I understood and worked for me it may have happened... but I didn't. So... short range training "can" be useful if gone about with the proper tools and understanding in place to make it successful. Without this, a lot of bad habits can be engrained in the subconscious and false confidence does not translate to longer distances.

The biggest problem I experienced with shooting short range is controlling the movement. At short range I could control the movement enough to shoot a lot of X's... That same control at longer distances wasn't sufficient to repeat. For some time now I've been working on un-learning controlling the movement. Much of this bad behavior was engrained in me at short yardage because I didn't truly understand the process.

Had I understood this Blue X quote things may have gone better: 

_"...train your mind to accept sight movement 
and not stop your execution." Blue X_


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## ron w

the point is that when you "practice" you are working on applying your confidence to the score produced by practicing, not working on producing the confidence you want to apply it to the score produced. in other words, that "confidence", needs to exist before it can be applied. there are too many variables at normal distances, for that confidence to be "built" and applied at the same time. 
building that confidence, is a learned exercise, that needs to be done in a situation where your shot process doesn't have to also contend with the outside distraction, of producing a score that satisfies that same confidence. 
it's sort of a vicious circle, the confidence is only rewarded by a good score, but the good score can't be produced, if the confidence is not there. you need to have the confidence initially, and that is taught by not having to be concerned with the good score produced.
Lanny Bashams, book, " With Winning in Mind", was written for this specific issue. and there are several chapters that address this "vicious circle", very distinctly. it is the whole "scope" of his book, in a nutshell. 
although his book is written about his turmoil and preparations for high power rifle competition, the application of the mental and phyisical attitude and the development of it, that surrounds this same arena of confidence, is very specific and fully applicable to our sport. in high power rifle, "trigger control" is the core of building that confidence and allot of time is spent dry firing, at the bench, working on trigger control,.... time spent working specifically, on that trigger control is our short yardage drills, where in both instances, we are building the confidence that produces the score that rewards the confidence.


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## EPLC

Sorry Ron, just wanted to point out that there is no magic pill and confidence at short range does not automatically translate to longer ranges... as you said; "There are too many variables at normal distances"... That was and has been my experience and I'm sticking to it...  Not saying it doesn't work for a lot of people... but there has to be a specific process involved... and perhaps some good coaching along the way or things could turn out badly.


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## ron w

I understand what you're saying, EPLC. I guess what I've learned and experienced, is that a certain level of trust and confidence needs to be there, initially, when you toe the line at competitive distances and that confidence is built teaching the shot process to work correctly where teaching it is easy because you're not concerning your execution with "earning a score". 
it's essentially the same thing in just about any athletic endeavor..... as in sprinting.....you don't learn how to get out of the blocks at the competition or by running hundred yard dashes, you better already know how, from specific and to the point, training, that of repeated short "starting sprints" that teach you how to get out of the blocks efficiently.. ..you don't learn "trigger control" at the bench rest competition, you spend hours dry firing your gun and watching how much movement you produce in the scope. 
I speed skated as a teen ager and into my early twenties, we, as teem, spent countless hours at the starting line, building our reaction to the starting gun and getting off the line as fast as possible, with as few steps as possiible and as smoothly as possible in transition into our stride. just as the shot is built in the execution, the sprint time is made by getting into your sprint stride as soon and as smoothly as possible. so you train specifically for that transition by doing short starting sprints, that include the transition, but with no concern for a good sprint time because if you don't get into that sprint stride smoothly and quickly, your sprint time will not matter as far as placing high in the competition.
similarily, everyone at the competition s fast, but the best sprinters are the ones who do the best job of getting into their sprint stride the soonest. so it goes with archery,... the best shots are the ones who have the most confidence in their execution, because they deliberately worked on that specific issue and it doesn't involve shooting at any specific distance because the execution is right where the bow is...and between your ears.


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## possum trapper

well to the original post.I would think about all your good shots you shoot and not dwell on the one that didn't score well on a 299 vegas round.

get yourself a note pad and takes notes on your good days and write down what your seeing at full draw and what your feeling and keep them notes close.

even tho that 1 or 2 arrows drive us all nuts you need to stay thinking about the positive shots you make.

to me if your that close to shooting 300 vegas games sounds like you just need some positive reinforcement.If you can make 25 good shots at 20yrds you can make 36.

its really about taking 1 shot at a time and each shot is not more important than the next.Why is that?because you should be focusing on your body and muscles and if you take your brain to activate them dumb very slow moving muscles the bow will actually shoot the arrow making it go where you desire BUT if you get too much of the smart muscles being used them muscles will shoot the shot because you will be pushing the envelope with them.

a exercise that may work is.....get some release rope for as long as your draw length double it and tie it and use it like your shooting the shot.mental imagining goes along ways when your up on the line.so when your between shots or ends bring that back up in your brain with your executing your muscles to your best ability and let the release fire


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## coastiehunter2

I'm not a big fan of short yardage, when I shoot 10 yrds and then go back to 20 it seems far. All summer shooting out to 101 yrds 20 seems close and easy, but by the end of winter it start's to seem further. Time to get back outside &#55357;&#56860;


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## possum trapper

one thing I have never heard out of a archer is my mental game is way better than it needs to be


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## possum trapper

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2281691


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## ron w

the amount of movement or float you get at ten yards, is exactly the same as you get at 20 yards or 60 yards. that's what blue x is trying to bring across. you have to learn to disregauard the fact that the float looks bigger at longer distances,.... it really isn't. if you have trouble dealing with that,....the amount of float you get for any particular day, you haven't done a thorough enough job of teaching yourself to "trust the float". that is, the float does not change because the yardage does. the picture is perceived as "larger float" as the distance increases because of perspective vision.....the target is smaller because it is further away so the float seems larger....but it is the same amount of "movement" at any distance, because the movement is generated at your bow, not at the target. if you trust the float, the arrow will go essentially to the middle of the float whether at 10 yards or 60 yards, because the float is no different at either distance, it doesn't increase as the yardage increases.
the idea of using short yardage, where the x-ring is big and easy to stay in, is so that you learn to disregard float and concentrate on execution. your float will not change going from 10 to 20 yards, only your perception of the range of movement changes as compared to what is was at 10 yards. if you have learned to trust the float, which is part of your execution, that's learned and perfected, at the 10 yard bale, you will be able to tolerate the perceived float range at longer distances. 
as an example, if you have a variable power scope on your rifle and set it at 3 power, then aim off hand at a 100 yard target then set it at 9 power and aim at the same target, the perceived float or movement you see through the scope, is drastically different, do you think the actual movement of your rifle has increased with more magnification ?..... because the distance hasn't changed. it's just the projected range of motion that you are seeing, amplified by more magnification, but the actual physical amount of movement of your rifle, is still the same at 3 power, as it is at 9 power.


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## ron w

possum trapper said:


> one thing I have never heard out of a archer is my mental game is way better than it needs to be


 he, he, it's never better than it needs to be, but it can be better than your physical ability to apply it to the shot. as I am coming back to archery after my years long break and a stroke, I am finding that my mental game is far more intact than my physical ability to utilize it.
the better you understand the mental side of a shot's execution, the more likely you will be in that condition where your mental game is above your physical ability to apply it to the shot. that's why we all work at developing the trust in our shot execution, ....our minds know what to do by reading and learning how to think about the shot's execution, but we need to work on applying how we think about the shot's execution, to the shot.
we cannot learn to do this by working on producing a good score, the production of a good score is the product of being able to apply that trust and thought to the shot. that is a learned application and it is best learned, where we don't have to deal with the pressures of producing a good score, so we cannot learn it at competitive distances, or under the competitive conditions of producing a good score. when you are practicing at 20 yards, you are practicing "producing a good score", not learning to apply trust to your execution because a good score, which is done at 20 yards, is the result of learning to apply that trust to your execution. 
if you learn to trust your execution at 10 yards, you should be able to trust it at 20. but if you don't learn to trust it, at "an easy distance" you will not be able to trust it, when the shooting gets more difficult.


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## Blue X

Ron hit the nail on the head there. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. 

Perceived float (to a degree) is irrelevant. The arrow dont go where your sight is or none of us would be able to be real consistent. The arrow goes to the center of where your tension is directed. Thats why ones you think should miss sometimes hit and ones you think should hit sometimes miss. The release needs to be moving when the sight hits the target. After the target has initially been acquired the sight is nothing more than in the way. No matter what you see that release needs to be moving as soon as the target is acquired. It all pulls together at the last part of the shot right before it breaks. 

A huge mistake people make is missing the first chance for execution. You acquire the target and the sight is in the center why wait till it moves then try to get it back on target. when the sight hits the target the release needs to be moving. That is the only time that a sight is telling you where your tension is directed. If you wait till your sight moves off target and then you put it back on target, who knows where the tension is directed. The closer to 5 second shot times you can get the better off you are for this reason. It took me several years and a million misses to learn what Ron and I just typed. When I say a million Im probably being way conservative.

I am about to tired to type, I hope I didnt butcher that!
Blue X


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## possum trapper

see Ron that's where it doesn't work for me.You say if you trust it at 10 you should trust it at 20.Where does it stop?if I trust it 10 do I still trust it at 60yrds?I know you should but that isn't whats happening with shooters.

If you work on your mental game on the process of executing the correct muscles at the correct time it is very rewarding and it makes no difference what distance you are shooting BUT when you do it at the yardage your stepping on the big stage at that's where the ultimate peek performance confidence comes from IMO.

Now if your having a few issues physically yes by all means step up and get them straightened out

My sight picture at 20 yrds plays a big part in MY visual process


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## ron w

the problem is that you don't "trust the float". if you don't trust it 60, you haven't learned to trust at 10, because the float isn't any different at either distance.
it takes a certain amount of understanding ...that "of course, your float will look larger at 60, than at 20, but you have to realize, the actual movement of the bow, is exactly the same at either distance, the difference is that the sight picture looks like the pin, dot, or whatever is moving much more, at the longer distance. 
you cannot deliberately change your float range, it is what it is, the conflict, is that at longer distances, you release execution will balk at the movement your sight process sees during their "inter communication" that keeps the shot flowing smoothly, if you don't learn to trust the float. with is in view, you can see why it needs to be learned at short yardage, where your execution doesn't need to deal with all that movement. let ask you, can you reliably fire off a 60 x round at 10 yards, every time you try ?. in respect to what you say, if you cannot, then the ten yard drill is what you need to do to teach your shot process to trust your float, because I guarantee, you won't be able to learn that at further distances, where the spot is that much harder to stay in or around. your mind is fully occupied with keeping the dot in the middle of the bulls eye at further distances. 
I suspect you contend that 10 yard shooting is easy and boring, and you don't get anything out of it, because you take a nonchalant attitude about shooting so close. 
I don't mean to flame you, with these statements,.... just challenge your reasoning and maybe make you think about how you're shooting your shots.
if you can fire off a 60 x round at the 10 yard bale,...with reasonable reliability....then your contention hold some legitimacy and you are, in fact ready to move on to further distances. if you cannot claim that accomplishment, then you are admitting that the 10 yard bale is not as easy as you claim it is. if the later is true, you do not trust your float and the confidence that is built at 10 yards doesn't exist. you cannot build that confidence, while dealing with the task of keeping the dot in the middle. you have to learn this, where your brain doesn't have to deal with that task, so it can pay full attention to how well it runs when it takes no effort to keep that dot in the middle....and that task doesn't exist at longer distances. 
what your not realizing, is that there is no difference in your float between 10 yards and 60 yards, it is perceived movement, that clutters the execution. your shot process hasn't learned to "trust your float", because you think it's too easy at 10 yards. the challenge isn't simply putting the arrow in the x-ring, it's how your shot process, your "execution", goes about doing it. if you say ten yard baling doesn't work for you, tell me how often you are letting down at 20, or 40, or 60 yards. with as much perceived movement as there is, at those distances, and if you never learned to trust your float, your either forcing the shots or letting down, or switching that execution on and off so often, you would not be able to get a shot off with any reliability.
again, i'll say, if it didn't work the way I explain, it wouldn't be used by the large majority of upper level coaches and guys like Griv, Dave Cousins, and almost all of the top pros that that will offer their expertise, that have existed since the times that we started using releases.


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## aread

ron w said:


> he, he, it's never better than it needs to be, but it can be better than your physical ability to apply it to the shot. as I am coming back to archery after my years long break and a stroke, I am finding that my mental game is far more intact than my physical ability to utilize it.
> the better you understand the mental side of a shot's execution, the more likely you will be in that condition where your mental game is above your physical ability to apply it to the shot. that's why we all work at developing the trust in our shot execution, ....our minds know what to do by reading and learning how to think about the shot's execution, but we need to work on applying how we think about the shot's execution, to the shot.
> we cannot learn to do this by working on producing a good score, the production of a good score is the product of being able to apply that trust and thought to the shot. that is a learned application and it is best learned, where we don't have to deal with the pressures of producing a good score, so we cannot learn it at competitive distances, or under the competitive conditions of producing a good score. when you are practicing at 20 yards, you are practicing "producing a good score", not learning to apply trust to your execution because a good score, which is done at 20 yards, is the result of learning to apply that trust to your execution.
> *if you learn to trust your execution at 10 yards, you should be able to trust it at 20.* but if you don't learn to trust it, at "an easy distance" you will not be able to trust it, when the shooting gets more difficult.]


Ron, as usual, I agree with you, except for the part in bold. If you learn to trust your shot at 10 yards, your next step should be to learn to trust your shot at 11 yards. Then 12 yards, then 13 yards, etc. Enough time should be spent at each distance until it becomes super easy. Until you know that if you follow your shot sequence, you will shoot a good shot.

What happens is that increased distance, increases the mental pressure and at some point, the increased pressure will result in something about your shot failing. The first thing that fails is the part of your shot that you trust the least. If you step back too far at one time, there may be several things going wrong at one time and you won't know what part of your shot that you should work on first. The goal is to get to where you can execute *your* shot regardless of the distance and regardless of what you see through the sight. 

How far should you step back in 1 yard increments? Generally about 30 yards. After that, our minds don't perceive the increase in distance as significant and doesn't feel the added pressure. Of course, everyone is different and some should go back further and others not as far.

Again, this is not normal practice. It's a remedial drill that helps you develop trust in your shot. It's also good training for the week after shooting a tournament in windy conditions. Frequently, shooting for score in gusting wind gets us to punching. This can help us get back to normal execution.

I got this stuff from Len Cardinale. If you doubt him, read what Al Henderson wrote about Len in his books. I know from personal experience that it works. For me, it takes a lot of effort to run this drill properly. And for it to be really effective, you have to have a good shot sequence. IMO, precisely following a good shot sequence on every arrow is probably the most important thing about the drill. 

Allen


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## ron w

Aread, you are right, but the issue with how big a step to take.... that's semantics.....everybody has a different evaluation of what is a good distance to increase.
the point of my post, is that the distance isn't what makes you trust or not trust the float, the reason you don't trust it, is because you never truly learned to trust it and then reliably apply it, and the easiest place to learn to trust it, is at the 10 yard bale, where your shot process doesn't need to exert all it's attention to keeping the dot in the middle. if it were as easy as some think, at that 10 yard bale, we would all be able to pump out 60 x, ten yard rounds like MacDonalds makes hamburgers.
you can increase that distance in any graduation you want....when you recognize problems, either return to the previous distance and work out the problem, or sometimes, you might need to go all the way back and do a short "refresher course" at the 10 yard bale first. that's the area that only you can make the decision about. this usually happens when a guy pushes those steps sooner that he should. at some point that default, or confidence takes a nose dive, shots circuits and won't work, at any distance...then it's back to the 10 yard bale for a refresher, just the same as someone might spend a few minutes before a spot round, doing some blind baling to keep that sub conscious release execution reminded of how it is supposed to run right before shooting a round.
that shot sequence is why we do short baling and the let down training that teaches the shot execution to either run right or not run at all. I guess in lite of this thread, you might assume that we have been through that part of the development already. it is definitely true that it does support the issue we talk about here and has to be established before we attempt to work on this confidence development, because as a whole every element of the "shot process" supports another element.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> the amount of movement or float you get at ten yards, is exactly the same as you get at 20 yards or 60 yards...


But this is the crux of the issue: You may have the same range of motion, but your perception of that motion isn't the same... and a 2 inch group at 10 yards is a 10 inch group at 50 yards. As far as "haven't done enough"; I've shot at short ranges for over 10 years, thousands and thousands of arrows, both left and right handed and the process has "never" built any real or lasting confidence at longer distances. That's just a fact. I'm constantly trying things out at short range but really never know if they are good or bad until I've validated at real world distances. Some things that feel real good at 7-10 yards just don't pan out.

The single most effective thing I have done to build confidence since 2009 is to build a shot routine... and actually use it. The "use it" part has been especially difficult to stick with though. I would tend to use it for a while and gradually it would slip away as my confidence grew and the routine became no more than lip service. I believe this was due to my lack of understanding of the routine. The words were there to some extent but the meaning and depth was missing. Recently, after reading another thread in this forum http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2265726 I started to really work to better understand and further develop my routine... In one short month this process has done more to build my confidence than anything I have done to this point... and yes, some of the work on this has been done at short range. I truly believe (finally) that building a shot routine that works for you... one that you truly understand... and is repeatable... is the key I've been searching for.


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## ron w

the thing EPLC , is that you cannot do anything about the perceived movement, at any distance. it will be what it will be for any given day and trusting the float is the way that range of movement is not going to influence your execution. 
do you execute differently at 60 yards than you do at 20, because the perceived float is bigger ?.....no,.... and if you do, you are forcing the shot, or punching, or doing something you should not be doing. that is exactly what "trusting the float" is. ....not being influenced by the increased range as distance gets greater. if you have learned to trust it, and have confidence in your execution, your shot process can spend all the energy it needs putting the don or dot where it belongs, instead of deciding when to release the arrow, because it knows the arrow will go when the release execution gets around to it. if it doesn't happen automatically, you do not trust the float and are command shooting. 
as blue x says, float is something that you have to learn to ignore, mentally, or the execution will forever be jumping in and out of gear. and as I've said earlier, "every element of the execution supports another element of that execution", ....trusting the float supports the smooth initiation and continuous operation of the release execution, remember now, trusting the float is an element of your sight process as well, so just as valuable, the sight process, is supported be the fact that you have learned to trust the float. 
once have learned this, and it operates on a self initiated process, your brain can exert as much energy as it can muster to keep the pin/dot where it should be, but it cannot be expected to exert that energy, if it is restricted by the shot process, jumping in and out of gear from a large perceived float range. that trust, is learned and supported by sessions at the ten yard bale, where the sight process doesn't have to deal with the shot process jumping in and out of gear. it has to learn to accept that there will be movement, and that movement is tolerable enough to not stop the shot process at the ten yard bale, so it can learn to run with the movement. 
the practice you do at longer, more real life distances can only apply what it has learned to the shot. if the shot process has not learned that it can run reliably, with the movement, it will run, freeze, run, freeze, run freeze, until it shorts out and you force the shot to go. if it has learned it well and is confident in what it knows, the shot will proceed, regardless of the range of movement in your float. the only restrictor, then, is your decision to shut the execution down completely, because the float is just simply too big, (we all have had those days), or something else is going wrong with that individual shot.
you are not "learning" to trust the float at longer yardage, you are learning to apply that trust to the shot.....the trust has to be established first and then you learn to apply it, to the individual shot, in a better and more confident way as you practice at longer distances. the more you practice applying the trust to the shot, the better you shoot. the better you get at applying that trust, to the shot, the more "room of confidence" your aiming process will have to support the continuation of the shot's execution as the pin/dot floats around the bull. it is this "ease of application of the trust built", that you are learning when shooting at real life distance, not the "confidence itself". 
just as walking or running or working in a factory in a piece rate setting on a machine. you start out slowly, (the short baling) and as you build confidence in the movements you have to make, you apply that confidence to the speed that you produce Parts, and start making money.


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## possum trapper

its ok to disagree on how you get there.Archery is a very individual sport where a lot of people take different paths to get there.One thing about it if your not happy with your results you have 2 choices.

and most people will keep themselves in a rut by not changing.

Tim Gillingham once said I believe....Once he stopped listening to others tell him how he should be shooting his scores took off.

so take all options into consideration but march to your own drum


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## EPLC

Not here to argue, just sharing my experience. Not every bolt fits every nut.


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## Joe Ryan

Wow.. Lotsa good stuff here. I train myself to shoot scared. I lost a state indoor by being a bit too impatient on ONE shot. Since then, I spend most of my practice time at 27 yds. I use bio feedback to relax, then execute, letting down every time I feel any disturbance. At 27, that occurs more often. Oh... And eat lotsa raisins. Lol


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## ron w

yup, there are always variables that people need to adjust into their routine to suit their individual needs, but the main essence of any training stays pretty much the same. if it weren't that way, there would be no "more or less accepted methods that are know to work universally" it is the reason we have schools and seminars about learning to be a coach be coach. if you look at something like the Olympics, you will see athletes from all over the world, registering time and performances, that are only hundredths of a second and even less, apart over the top 10 or 15 athletes. the reason is simply because the methods of training have been so universally acknowledged that everyone is using the same basic system.
this applies to almost all forms of auto racing and professional sports as well, not only in the "human element" of the competition, but in the equipment used, too. 
there are known, accepted and acknowledged methods of training, that produce specific results because they have been adjusted, tailored and improved, to fit the results we are after over many years. 
if this weren't true, we wouldn't see things like only a 1 second spread over the top 10 places, at some big competition. and we wouldn't see shoots like Vegas, won by one "x", all the time. that's why there's no real secrecy in training, and in the pro ranks, one shooter freely helping another . they all train and practice, basically the same way, with the same methods...because they knowledgeably produce the results they are after.


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## darton3d

possum trapper said:


> its ok to disagree on how you get there.Archery is a very individual sport where a lot of people take different paths to get there.One thing about it if your not happy with your results you have 2 choices.
> 
> and most people will keep themselves in a rut by not changing.
> 
> Tim Gillingham once said I believe....Once he stopped listening to others tell him how he should be shooting his scores took off.
> 
> *so take all options into consideration but march to your own drum*


*
*

This is one of the most important lessons I have learned over the years. Do what works for me. I have tried a great deal of the things I have read by the professional coaches, but often find it just doesn't fit my personality. 
Perhaps "trust the float" isn't the way to word it, maybe it should be "ignore the float"? Personally my mantra is "just let it float". People who have a controlling/perfectionist personality have a much harder time "trusting the float" than those who are more laid back in personality. It's not a mental thing, it's just their personality. IMHO.


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## stoz

Good thread. Think that's what I've been missing is trusting my float and executing with out regard for float. Years ago I went to Tim Strickland and he talked alot about this subject. I am just starting to work on this trust and the way I am trying to do it is by making my goal on every shot to have good timing. So far in practice it feels good and I have been letting down more and not accept ing as many shots that I would have previously.


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## ron w

very true,....your personality has a great deal of influence in how well you develop trust in your execution.
call it what you want, the idea is that is that the level trust you develop in your execution , will be limited be the influence that movement has, on whether you "trust it", or "ignore it" as your shot execution proceeds. if you can't get over that hump of accepting that the sight will move around, you will have a hard time developing that trust and it will get harder as the shot distance increases. that is why we train to learn to accept it, at short distance where the perceived float range doesn't interfere with the procession of the execution. just the same as if you are trying to work out a particularly hard math problem, constant interruptions will distract your train of thought. if they persist, you give up. that giving up, is when you force the shot or punch it off.


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## ron w

stoz, 
you bring up a good point....that of letting down.
part of this training, includes teaching you shot process to value a let down with the same regard as a well executed shot that successfully goes into the X, rather than a failure to get the shot off. that association of failing to get the shot off, is exactly what motivates us to force the shot or punch it. the reality is just the opposite. a let down saves an almost inevitable miss, so it's value to our shooting, is just as important as that well made shot. 
if we can learn to think in this plateau, that let down is now supporting the trust being built, because we know we can let down and interrupt a poorly running shot, whose float is too big, without getting that feeling that we have to push on and potentially loose a good shot. as i've said, in the shot execution, there is always one elemental part, that supports another. when you can put them all together, successfully, trust and confidence, is built. the key is to learn each element individually and separately.....keep it simple.


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## EPLC

darton3d said:


> [/U][/I][/B]
> 
> This is one of the most important lessons I have learned over the years. Do what works for me. I have tried a great deal of the things I have read by the professional coaches, but often find it just doesn't fit my personality.
> Perhaps "trust the float" isn't the way to word it, maybe it should be "ignore the float"? Personally my mantra is "just let it float". People who have a controlling/perfectionist personality have a much harder time "trusting the float" than those who are more laid back in personality. It's not a mental thing, it's just their personality. IMHO.


Yes, right on the button... We "A" types are a difficult nut to crack. I like to think of the issue as "controlling the motion". The best tool I've come up with to help with my trust issues is pictured below. I have different sizes that range from 7/16" to 3/4" and all work quite well. The Blue X quote on the back side of my shot reminder card is also very helpful as I tend to have A.D.D. (Archery Deficit Disorder).

BTW, just so there is no misunderstanding; I have no issues with the end goals posted in this thread... such as building trust in your shot, etc...


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## bstring

ron w said:


> stoz,
> you bring up a good point....that of letting down.
> part of this training, includes teaching you shot process to value a let down with the same regard as a well executed shot that successfully goes into the X, rather than a failure to get the shot off. that association of failing to get the shot off, is exactly what motivates us to force the shot or punch it. the reality is just the opposite. a let down saves an almost inevitable miss, so it's value to our shooting, is just as important as that well made shot.
> if we can learn to think in this plateau, that let down is now supporting the trust being built, because we know we can let down and interrupt a poorly running shot, whose float is too big, without getting that feeling that we have to push on and potentially loose a good shot. as i've said, in the shot execution, there is always one elemental part, that supports another. when you can put them all together, successfully, trust and confidence, is built. the key is to learn each element individually and separately.....keep it simple.


This is some of the best advice I've seen on AT in a while. Thanks Ron. I'm going to work on this. You just went WAAAAY up in my respect list. Thanks.


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## ron w

you're welcome , sir.........
if you'll do a search, using "let down drill" and "10 yard baling" you'll see that I have posted on this issue many times, saying essentially the same thing, but with some of the posts being much more explanatory and involved, mentally.


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## stoz

Thats true about letting down. I had basically for a long time running my program to the end and pretty much just waiting and was having problems finding a mental program that would keep my conscious mind occupied. Now I run with the goal of good shot timing, quit a bit faster and if anything enters my mind than the flow of the shot or if I at all feel long I let down.I've let down a few times and it felt really good knowing I didn't shoot a mediocre shot. We all seem to associate letting down with failure.


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## ron w

exactly,....failure,....when it is actually just the opposite, in more respects than you might think. it is a victory over a potentially poorly run, or forced shot. with a let down you are making that statement to your shot process, of, " c'mon, get on ball, if you're 'gonna run,... run right". a refusal to accept a lazy execution. a recognition, to your self, that you aren't running your shot well. and a recognition to your execution, that "this is not the way we do things". it puts some amount of pressure on your shot process to run the way it should, when, as an advanced shooter, you know it is capable of producing that good shot.
and lastly, in competition, the saving of a possible reduction in score.
very good point about letting down, if you let your shot exceed your shot time window. so many of us sit there and wait till the shot goes, letting it take all the time it wants. then we wonder why that shot didn't go to the middle


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## MiniJCW

I have got a lot from this thread and i want to thank everyone for their posts. My float is a little crazy at times, and after a weekend shooting at my very first competition my float was extremely bad. My nerves ate me alive on the line at some points it looked like i had Parkinson's disease i was shaking so much.
But it has shown me the importance of shot sequence and float drills, i have 12 months before the next national indoor competition, so that is 12 months of float practice and drills. I picked up a compound bow for the very first time 8 months ago and have never done a sport that has challenged me like archery has. But i just cant seem to get enough of shooting arrows.
Thanks for the posts and keep them coming i really enjoy threads like these.
Cheers


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## EPLC

This tread is about building trust in you shot execution and nothing builds trust like performance. Short range shooting does not build confidence... it builds form. True confidence comes only when you can translate your training (whatever method works for you) into real world distances, first on the practice range and then in competition. As mentioned I've been working on my shot routine, which is the best tool available for building confidence. In the summer months I mostly shoot field archery. Yesterday I shot a 269 half... decided that I was a little cramped in the extension and tweaked the DL/loop a tad last night. Had I not been studying, building, tweaking and trying to better understand my shot routine I would have missed this. This morning I shot another half and shot a 271. Half way through the round I had only dropped 1 point. For me this is very good shooting... I then had 18's on the 80, 65 and 60 and a couple 19's on the 55 and 25. I guess it had become a little too important to me after the start I had. That said; working with my shot routine has produced better performance, which in turn has produced more confidence.


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## possum trapper

yes i agree.you can get some confindence by shooting up close or blank bale shoot or just simulating but that will only take you so far.True performance great shooting confidence has to be done at the range you're shooting the tournament at.

it really depends on where you are at in your execution is where you need to work.some guys like Reo dont shoot a arrow unless its for score.I like that idea myself because at that level all arrows matter or should i say all execution matters because all we are in charge of is the handle of the bow and the handle of the release.the bow shoots the arrow


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## ron w

if we could all shoot like Reo, we wouldn't be on this forum discussing this issue, would we ?. 
confidence in your "execution" is built at the short bale...confidence in applying the execution to your shooting is developed at real distances. you can't apply a "confident execution" to anything, if you have not developed one.
Reo, does practice, he stated that when he practices, it is always a scored practice, because at his level, that's what it takes to put pressure on the application of the confidence he has in his execution. . most pros do a fair amount of short bale work, because it is the place you work to develop confidence in your execution and work out flaws.....the "execution", does not need real world shooting distance....confident application of the execution, needs real world shooting distance. you don't run your shot differently because you're at 10 yards or 60 yards.
the OP asked about building confidence in your execution...


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## northern rednek

This thread has been an amazing learning experience. I think in get what all of you are saying and agree with what you're all saying. What I'm getting now is to shoot the short game and blank bale to get the form and timing, shoot the short game increasing yardage to build confidence in the shot. Shoot actual tournament yardage to build confidence and solidify tournament form.


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## possum trapper

oh no we would need this forum because its archery TALK.......The person with the highest post count wins

we can talk about this forever.you have your way I have mine.The proof is in the scores and what works for that person.

It wasn't about Reo or anyone else.Its about where your game is and what you gotta do to prepare yourself for shooting on the line.because otherwise people would stay on this site and Talk about how to do it.Just because it works for 75%of the people doesn't mean its works for you.

Everyone approaches practice different but it all boils down to expectations for yourself.Wonder why MOST shooters score less going to tournements than in practice????Maybe not enough 10 yard shooting applying the execution under pressure?


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## possum trapper

northern rednek said:


> This thread has been an amazing learning experience. I think in get what all of you are saying and agree with what you're all saying. What I'm getting now is to shoot the short game and blank bale to get the form and timing, shoot the short game increasing yardage to build confidence in the shot. Shoot actual tournament yardage to build confidence and solidify tournament form.



to me it all depends on issues you are having and how your wired.#1 are you really making good shots?How are you scoring now?
#2 are you being inpatient with you release execution?
#3 How much tension do you have with your shot

Is some guys having trouble shooting a clean face to where it freaks them out and gets in their head?Ive seen people shoot shot up faces real well but when it comes clean targets they scatter them everywhere

I will say that most people don't put themselves under enough pressure in practice to get themselves ready


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## possum trapper

northern rednek said:


> This thread has been an amazing learning experience. I think in get what all of you are saying and agree with what you're all saying. What I'm getting now is to shoot the short game and blank bale to get the form and timing, shoot the short game increasing yardage to build confidence in the shot. Shoot actual tournament yardage to build confidence and solidify tournament form.



good thread! it brings out alot of different aspects from people


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## ron w

these mehods aren't just my idea....the were taught to me by guys like Griv , Dave Cousins, Michelle Raggsdale, Jim Despart, and Reo and his dad, years ago, when they were all on this forum, all the time.... and they learned them from their coaches. nothing about this issue has changed for many, many years. Michelle, in particular, was very good ant explaining this issue.
there's nothing at all new about them,...they are, for the most part, the standard method of improving your shooting and have been the same, since I started shooting and learned some (allot) of it from the guy that taught me, in '74, or '75, who was a top ranking pro back then. these methods were already well established, then and they were figured out by people who know allot more about how your brain works when shooting a bow, than you or me.... and designed to work with everyone, because our brains all work the same way, in this respect.
so, actually, this issue is not one that can be approached differently by different people. although, many areas in archery are, this one is not....we all have the same method of processing the shot in our brains and what works for me to improve my shooting , will work for you, because of that. it is exactly in these areas, that those pros would get into arguments about, with people here, and then decided to give up posting about it.
I was exactly one of those guys that would scatter arrows at a clean face, despite having a good execution...because I was having problems applying that execution to the first few shots of a round. I would end up with low to mid fifties X's and all of the misses would be in the first 3 ends. when I learned how to apply that execution to the first few shots, the same as I would apply it to the last few, I started punching the x-ring with the first arrows. 
your execution can be well developed and you can have all the confidence in the world of it, but if you don't apply it right, you will still miss.
in short, the key is in the way you apply that well developed execution to the shooting...... to not consider those first few shots any more important than the last few shots of a round and to consider each shot as important as the one before and the next one. you can have the confidence, but if it is not applied right, different results will surface. 
all i'm doing, is essentially extending their posts, to be honest. if the archive went back that far, you'd see that they were all saying the same things I say, now. and that's because it works...for everyone, all the time.


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## Padgett

I have had my cleanest shooting year to date this year and when I look back to the moment things changed it was this winter when I " MADE THE DECISION TO NEVER SEND A ARROW TO THE TARGET THAT DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT" In the beginning when I began letting down I only let down when I ran out of breath and had tried like hell to fire my hinge and it wouldn't fire and in desperation I would let down. I thought that this was the extent to letting down and sure it was better than just firing in desperation but it still sucked.

Then one week I had been shooting freaking awesome and by wednesday I hadn't missed a x on a 5-spot targets and then I drew back and the pin settled in on the edge of the x and floated just the same as usual but on the edge of the x instead of the middle of the x. I remember thinking this is risky and I went ahead with the shot and I missed on the right edge by a 1/8 of a inch, that was the day that I think I made the decision to never send a arrow to the target when I realize that something isn't right. It could be anything such as a funny float, my grip feels weird, my vision blurs, my peep isn't rotated correctly, some idiot tells a stupid joke, A shooter misfires and explodes a arrow during my shot. If anything happens I simply push the abort button and let down, then take a couple breaths and then start a new shot.

Since making this decision I have had some awesome runs of pressure shooting without having to deal with poor shots, sure I have misjudged some distances and shot some poor scores because I guessed a target for 43 yards and it was only 37 yards but my shooting has been really solid day after day week after week. The lack of stress during my shooting has really decreased and it really is nice to be under a bunch of pressure and know that you are going to make a solid shot.


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## stoz

Back in 2003 I decided I wanted to win the indoor state championship , which at the time was a huge deal. Especially because I was a 3d shooter and rap was 3d shooters can't shoot spots or weren't really good shots. So AT was just getting started and I researched the best shooters on here to see what they were doing and just like Ron w is saying all the info he is talking about was found on here. I took 4 months off of shooting and did just what he's saying. I won both classes at the states and just about every tournament I shot that year . Many perfect scores in tournaments too.


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## ron w

Stoz, I remember your name, from back then, and considered you one of the guys that knew what he was talking about !. there were some awesome discussions about these issue on this site at that time. you might remember me as ,"merlinron", from back then. 

Padgett, 
yup, learning that a "let down does not mean failure to execute", is revelation to one's shot process. it then becomes just another "tool", to use to support perfect shots, same as a reliable anchor , or a well developed execution. the ironic reality of this is,.... that unless you learn to let down and not be ashamed of it, to yourself.....your execution is not quite "well developed", yet. a good execution requires the discipline that a let down defines. 
that let down should be considered as much a part of a well developed execution as the rest of the execution, because the let down acknowledges the fact that you aren't producing that well developed execution on this particular shot. it is actually the "supporter" of the entire shot process. as I've said, either the entire process runs smoothly, or the entire process shuts down and starts over.


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## possum trapper

its awesome when things work out when you decide to change the way you think


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## stoz

Yes I do. Alot of info back then. Still is now just alot more to wade thru to get it. Lol


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## ron w

yup,... it would be great if there could be a "sticky" made, with those posts in it !. it would read like a veritable "what's-what", in archery form, execution and mental attitude, all in the same place.
those guys were a priceless element to this forum, too bad they got chased off by stubborn argumentive ignorance.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> the OP asked about building confidence in your execution...


Yes, he did... but the symptoms he described were those that include a stopping of his execution due to sight movement. Unless you can improve this problem confidence will come and go depending on how well you can control the pin on any given day. I have had this issue and still have to constantly work on it. I also have shot 1000's of short range arrows and this has not been the solution to this issue, in fact it only masks it. Because you can more successfully "time" your execution to the movement at short ranges you can create false confidence that does not translate to real world distances. Short range training has done wonders to develop my shooting form but very little to remedy the topic at hand. Some things I have found that truly help this are: 

1. Shooting through a manhole cover so nothing obstructs my view of the X.
2. The continued development and understanding of my shot routine. 
3. Constantly reminding myself of this:* "...train your mind to accept sight movement 
and not stop your execution." Blue X*

Btw, short range training does help with developing a shot routine.


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## ron w

yes, train your mind to accept movement, but there is a limit that you have to learn is tolerable or not, when your float exceeds that tolerable limit, it's time to shut the process down. your shot process works just like a dog learning his territory. you walk it around the perimeter every time it strays out side, so it learns just how far it can go. eventually it learns not to cross that line. then within that perimeter, you will have days that the float is less and more, but all within that tolerable range. when it does stray beyond, part of that "well developed execution, allows you to let down, without anxiety,... thus, supporting that, "don't go beyond the tolerable lines". the key is to make those limits, very clear and recognized. if you're "wishy-washy" about what is tolerable, you shot process and execution, will learn to be "wishy-washy" about it's performance, as well.
it's all about establishing " internal values" and assigning them to your execution. internally, as I've said before, you have to be OK with a let down, and you learn that, by assigning a "value" to that let down...that "value", is that it is as good as a well made shot. when you watch a line of pro shooters, you'll see some let downs and maybe see some let downs happen several times for the same shot...it is this "value", that those guys have learned and they won't allow it to be compromised, by forcing a shot, when it's so easily avoided, by the support of shutting down the entire process, with that let down..


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## stoz

Tim Strickland was big proponent of this training yourself to accept movement. I went to him thinking he was going to "fix"my form.what I came away with is execute and accept the movement. I convinced myself of this by using a release that would just click instead of fire and I would go thru my shot and every time the release clicked I was dead center. I shot alot of high scores that year. I think I'm still struggling with accepting movement so my goal is good shot timing on every shot. If it is good I score an 11. A little long is 10. Really long 9. Stop thinking score of where it hits and score your shot execution and see if it helps.


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## ron w

Stoz, if you remember back to those threads from earlier years, there was a fairly long discussion about "shot window timing" by Jim Despart. where a buddy times all your shots from anchor to the shot breaking and marks the ones that hit the X. then, the average of all those "good shots" is your "shot window time". it is the few seconds during your execution, where your sights settle the best and floats with the least range. we all have a specific time that is around 3 seconds and it needs to be found and established and then trained for, to make our shots break during that few seconds of best hold.
once that "shot window" is discovered, it is done by shooting as normal, and when you exceed that average time element, you let down and start over. this trains the execution to get on the ball, and produce a good shot.


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## stoz

Thats exactly what I'm working on.I don't remember that thread but I remember field 14 talking about the same thing.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> yes, train your mind to accept movement, but there is a limit that you have to learn is tolerable or not, when your float exceeds that tolerable limit, it's time to shut the process down. your shot process works just like a dog learning his territory. you walk it around the perimeter every time it strays out side, so it learns just how far it can go. eventually it learns not to cross that line. then within that perimeter, you will have days that the float is less and more, but all within that tolerable range. when it does stray beyond, part of that "well developed execution, allows you to let down, without anxiety,... thus, supporting that, "don't go beyond the tolerable lines". the key is to make those limits, very clear and recognized. if you're "wishy-washy" about what is tolerable, you shot process and execution, will learn to be "wishy-washy" about it's performance, as well.
> it's all about establishing " internal values" and assigning them to your execution. internally, as I've said before, you have to be OK with a let down, and you learn that, by assigning a "value" to that let down...that "value", is that it is as good as a well made shot. when you watch a line of pro shooters, you'll see some let downs and maybe see some let downs happen several times for the same shot...it is this "value", that those guys have learned and they won't allow it to be compromised, by forcing a shot, when it's so easily avoided, by the support of shutting down the entire process, with that let down..


While I agree with this entire statement... I also recognize that establishing or just identifying what is a tolerable range of motion is can't be done at short range. This has been my point all along.

Actually after thinking about this, your acceptable range of motion is what ever range of motion you can develop. Everybody is different in the steadiness department. "If" you do not let it stop your execution, regardless of the size of the movement, you will shoot better. Now I will qualify that with the fact that the more movement you have to contend with the more difficult it will be to not let it effect you. Nobody moved more than I did before I switched to lefty. While my shooting certainly suffered for several years fighting whatever affliction I have shooting RH, I did learn proper form and execution during that ugly time period. I learned that if I pulled through the shot, regardless of the movement, the arrow still had a chance to hit the mark. That fact doesn't change regardless of how much movement there is to contend with.


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## ron w

you are right, it was Field14 that posted that mile long post about the subject. "old dog's disease" got the better of me !. my apologies to Field 14 for misplacing the credit for what was a very valuable post back then !. I think the hardest thing about these issues, is that they're so intertwined with other aspects of the shot process, that it's hard to post about them in short, easy reading posts.
we are lucky that there's enough band width here, to carry these threads.


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## possum trapper

you know what's funny is you can have a great shot execution at 10,20,30 40,60 yrds or whatever distance and shoot great shots in general but in some practices and most tourneys can be a roller coaster ride if you think different during a round.

you can be shooting vegas round in practice and be clean through 4 ends or 8 ends doesn't matter but once you change the way you think or different from the way you were thinking to get you that far clean into that round it can turn on you real quick so to have that recovery plan in your head is big plus.

2012 vegas for me I shot each arrow with meaning like it meant something(and it did)first day 300 25x....ok keep it going think the same way each arrow with meaning 2nd day 300 24x....
nothing special but I'm happy because this was as long as ive ever been clean in vegas.I'm actually building some great confidence for myself and felt great about the 3rd day.keep it going thinking the exact same way making great shots.I remember after the 7th end telling myself only 9 arrows left...yep you guessed it instead of taking arrow by arrow I changed my thinking up.I wasn't nervous but I wasn't thinking the exact same way.first arrow 8th end a fuzz high.shot my only 9 and didn't even realize that I was only 1 x down till that arrow.finished 899 74x. 

Ive seen guys miss their first arrow in vegas ive seen them miss their last arrow.guys can flat out shoot and when you get your trust built into your shot there is still another level on keeping it together when things that you see or hear in practice or a tournament try to steer you off the road....the challenge is to keep it together and that challenge never ends


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## aread

possum trapper said:


> you know what's funny is you can have a great shot execution at 10,20,30 40,60 yrds or whatever distance and shoot great shots in general but in some practices and most tourneys can be a roller coaster ride if you think different during a round.
> 
> you can be shooting vegas round in practice and be clean through 4 ends or 8 ends doesn't matter but once you change the way you think or different from the way you were thinking to get you that far clean into that round it can turn on you real quick so to have that recovery plan in your head is big plus.
> 
> 2012 vegas for me I shot each arrow with meaning like it meant something(and it did)first day 300 25x....ok keep it going think the same way each arrow with meaning 2nd day 300 24x....
> nothing special but I'm happy because this was as long as ive ever been clean in vegas.I'm actually building some great confidence for myself and felt great about the 3rd day.keep it going thinking the exact same way making great shots.I remember after the 7th end telling myself only 9 arrows left...yep you guessed it instead of taking arrow by arrow I changed my thinking up.I wasn't nervous but I wasn't thinking the exact same way.first arrow 8th end a fuzz high.shot my only 9 and didn't even realize that I was only 1 x down till that arrow.finished 899 74x.
> 
> Ive seen guys miss their first arrow in vegas ive seen them miss their last arrow.guys can flat out shoot and when you get your trust built into your shot there is still another level on keeping it together when things that you see or hear in practice or a tournament try to steer you off the road....the challenge is to keep it together and that challenge never ends


Possum,
Thanks for posting this!
I appreciate hearing about the game from you guys who have actually been there.
Allen


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## ron w

both trips I made to Vegas, "06 and '07, IIRC., left me feeling like a tiny little tadpole in big sea of sharks, but it was still fun !..
I went just to know what it felt like to shoot in a big tournament...one I had heard about for many years. I realized I had absolutely no chance to do anything but get my name on the 'also shot" list, but it was by far,the best time I ever had at a shoot, bar none.
I had practiced for about 6 mos., on the vegas face at the club, and was managing to stay in the mid 290's, so I figured, "what the heck, let's see what it's like, just for the fun of it".
well on my second trip, I shot a my personal best score", at the tournament, of 297- 19x and low and behold, gathered up 165 bucks at the end of the week end ! they were paying out awfully deep, because I finished up, something like 13th, in the 12 flight. there were about 22 shooters per fligh, so I was pretty far down the road, ....I think they paid out to the last place in my flight. the trade show there was neat, I got to meet the Carters, of "Carter releases", I was shooting Jerry Carter's Merlin Max 2000, that I bought from him through the classifieds, on here and stopped by the booth with it.. talking to him about releases, was probably the highlight of both of my trips. he's another one along, with his dad, Forrest, who used to on this site, all the time and eventually gave up trying to help, because of the generally stubborn attitude about advice from people who know , this site puts forth. I will say that this issue has gotten better since then, but back about 10 years ago, it was futile to try and give someone some decent advice about shooting, form and execution.
it was surely a learning experience and I would recommend anyone who enjoys spot shooting, go and give it a try. it's a big shoot, but everybody was really friendly and there were shooters of all ages and whole families doing what they liked most....shooting their bows and having fun doing it, not at all concerned about their scores. the atmosphere was allot more laid back than I would ever have imagined, for such a big shoot..


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## EPLC

possum trapper said:


> you know what's funny is you can have a great shot execution at 10,20,30 40,60 yrds or whatever distance and shoot great shots in general but in some practices and most tourneys can be a roller coaster ride if you think different during a round.
> 
> you can be shooting vegas round in practice and be clean through 4 ends or 8 ends doesn't matter but once you change the way you think or different from the way you were thinking to get you that far clean into that round it can turn on you real quick so to have that recovery plan in your head is big plus.
> 
> 2012 vegas for me I shot each arrow with meaning like it meant something(and it did)first day 300 25x....ok keep it going think the same way each arrow with meaning 2nd day 300 24x....
> nothing special but I'm happy because this was as long as ive ever been clean in vegas.I'm actually building some great confidence for myself and felt great about the 3rd day.keep it going thinking the exact same way making great shots.I remember after the 7th end telling myself only 9 arrows left...yep you guessed it instead of taking arrow by arrow I changed my thinking up.I wasn't nervous but I wasn't thinking the exact same way.first arrow 8th end a fuzz high.shot my only 9 and didn't even realize that I was only 1 x down till that arrow.finished 899 74x.
> 
> Ive seen guys miss their first arrow in vegas ive seen them miss their last arrow.guys can flat out shoot and when you get your trust built into your shot there is still another level on keeping it together when things that you see or hear in practice or a tournament try to steer you off the road....the challenge is to keep it together and that challenge never ends


Changing my thinking... wow I thought I was the only one afflicted with that!  Yesterday and again today I experienced this, more so each day. On Sunday and Monday I shot pretty good half rounds of field of 269 and 271. As mentioned earlier I was only down one point through the first half of the 271. That was when it started to change and I shot 3 18's to finish out that game. Yesterday, instead of thinking about each arrow I was caught up in that 271 half. While I kind of felt like I was executing the same I wasn't and could only shoot a 262... by today I could only manage a very ugly 255. I have been shooting better as of late due to my work on the shot routine, but I'm not sure what the answer to this one is...?


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## ElMuchoHombre

I want to take a minute out of my day and thank those that have contributed to this thread. After reading it Saturday night, Sunday I got up, went to the range, and shot my first 300 on a 5 spot face. I started shooting indoor spots in the beginning of June, and I had been struggling with keeping my mental focus sharp throughout all 12 ends, and reading several of the posts on here helped me a lot. I shot again yesterday, and shot a 300-41x, my second 300 to date, and the first time shooting this week since my 300 on Sunday. I attribute this wholly to the improvement in my mental game, nothing in my form has changed. 

Keep this thread going please, I'm learning more here than I have in a lot of other places.


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## northern rednek

I was going to start a new thread with another question but I'm hoping everyone giving advice on this one could help me out. What does your practice routine consist of? Do you have certain drills you go thru? Exercises? Would love to hear how to set up a good practice routine to reach my 300 goal.


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## Blue X

northern rednek said:


> I was going to start a new thread with another question but I'm hoping everyone giving advice on this one could help me out. What does your practice routine consist of? Do you have certain drills you go thru? Exercises? Would love to hear how to set up a good practice routine to reach my 300 goal.


 Start a new thread

Blue X


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## EPLC

Confidence... for me this has been an elusive thing. Like the tide it comes in and then goes out. When I shot that 271 half on Monday I was confident that if I executed my shot routine correctly I was going to be in the spot. On Tuesday my focus had changed from shooting each arrow within my shot routine to "I want to repeat what I did Monday". Of course that didn't happen, nor did it happen yesterday, I only got worst. I was beginning to get confused and with confusion comes a big drop in confidence (been there done that). That post of possum trapper's that pointed out the change in the thinking process got me thinking. What was it that I was doing differently? Then I concluded that I have a shot routine that has been working for me so why not use it to help me get out of this. That was my goal for today.

Prior to shooting my round today I warmed up for several ends at 30 yards. My grouping wasn't where I want it to be and I still didn't have the issue identified. In spite of this I decided to start shooting the course for score. I had a very slow start but did stick to my shot routine... trying to identify where the issue was. I shot a 20 on the 45 yarder but followed that up with a 16 on the 40... Four targets in and I was already 8 points down. I obviously had not gotten a handle on this so I decided to stay on the 40 until I figured this out. What I discovered was that my hold wasn't as steady and I was reacting to it with my release. What wasn't I doing within my routine to cause this. I quickly discovered that I was not relaxing my bow arm. This was a result of not obtaining proper alignment during my setup. I corrected this and went on to finish the scoring round. From that point I finished out with all 19's and 20's for a 264 half, including 19's on the 60, 65 and 80. Not too bad considering my shaky start. 

Needless to say I was very happy with this outcome. Prior to my recent work on my routine something like this would send me into a tailspin. I could be lost for days or even weeks before stumbling back into shooting better. And even after my recovery I never really knew what went wrong, and most importantly, what went right to fix it.


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## possum trapper

i will add what most people call their shot sequence i call my process.i concentrate on my process mostly.i like to hear the nock snap on string but there are 2 things which i think i critical to the process.while drawing letting that riser seat back into my hand.that will most assure me my hand is relaxed and possibly my whole bow arm.the next thing is coming to full draw.recognize each time do you have the same feeling of the string against your face.what this does imo relax the back end.so just dont pull it back make sure part of your process is getting the exact same feel from the string...hopefully this will help.


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## possum trapper

EPLC said:


> Confidence... for me this has been an elusive thing. Like the tide it comes in and then goes out. When I shot that 271 half on Monday I was confident that if I executed my shot routine correctly I was going to be in the spot. On Tuesday my focus had changed from shooting each arrow within my shot routine to "I want to repeat what I did Monday". Of course that didn't happen, nor did it happen yesterday, I only got worst. I was beginning to get confused and with confusion comes a big drop in confidence (been there done that). That post of possum trapper's that pointed out the change in the thinking process got me thinking. What was it that I was doing differently? Then I concluded that I have a shot routine that has been working for me so why not use it to help me get out of this. That was my goal for today.
> 
> Prior to shooting my round today I warmed up for several ends at 30 yards. My grouping wasn't where I want it to be and I still didn't have the issue identified. In spite of this I decided to start shooting the course for score. I had a very slow start but did stick to my shot routine... trying to identify where the issue was. I shot a 20 on the 45 yarder but followed that up with a 16 on the 40... Four targets in and I was already 8 points down. I obviously had not gotten a handle on this so I decided to stay on the 40 until I figured this out. What I discovered was that my hold wasn't as steady and I was reacting to it with my release. What wasn't I doing within my routine to cause this. I quickly discovered that I was not relaxing my bow arm. This was a result of not obtaining proper alignment during my setup. I corrected this and went on to finish the scoring round. From that point I finished out with all 19's and 20's for a 264 half, including 19's on the 60, 65 and 80. Not too bad considering my shaky start.
> 
> Needless to say I was very happy with this outcome. Prior to my recent work on my routine something like this would send me into a tailspin. I could be lost for days or even weeks before stumbling back into shooting better. And even after my recovery I never really knew what went wrong, and most importantly, what went right to fix it.



sounds like your gaining on knowing what to do to get into your groove....expectations are a pain but a great thing to have


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## cbrunson

possum trapper said:


> you know what's funny is you can have a great shot execution at 10,20,30 40,60 yrds or whatever distance and shoot great shots in general but in some practices and most tourneys can be a roller coaster ride if you think different during a round.
> 
> you can be shooting vegas round in practice and be clean through 4 ends or 8 ends doesn't matter but once you change the way you think or different from the way you were thinking to get you that far clean into that round it can turn on you real quick so to have that recovery plan in your head is big plus.
> 
> 2012 vegas for me I shot each arrow with meaning like it meant something(and it did)first day 300 25x....ok keep it going think the same way each arrow with meaning 2nd day 300 24x....
> nothing special but I'm happy because this was as long as ive ever been clean in vegas.I'm actually building some great confidence for myself and felt great about the 3rd day.keep it going thinking the exact same way making great shots.I remember after the 7th end telling myself only 9 arrows left...yep you guessed it instead of taking arrow by arrow I changed my thinking up.I wasn't nervous but I wasn't thinking the exact same way.first arrow 8th end a fuzz high.shot my only 9 and didn't even realize that I was only 1 x down till that arrow.finished 899 74x.
> 
> Ive seen guys miss their first arrow in vegas ive seen them miss their last arrow.guys can flat out shoot and when you get your trust built into your shot there is still another level on keeping it together when things that you see or hear in practice or a tournament try to steer you off the road....the challenge is to keep it together and that challenge never ends


I think this is more relevant to the 298-300 Vegas shooter than confidence. Your confidence is there already if you are shooting that well. Discipline is what you need to learn to make every shot 30 times. I fall victim to that one arrow syndrome many times and it is exactly what possum says it is. My mind wanders or I lose focus breifly enough to make a bad shot. Short game and blank bale do nothing for this. It's a discipline issue.


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## northern rednek

I can't believe how many shots I've forced to go off. I've been shooting and every time it doesn't feel right or takes to long to go off I let down. I've been letting down lots, but I haven't been making nearly as many bad shots. I used to think if I could hold the shot till it went I was mentally tough but now I'm realizing that if it takes to long something's wrong and it's time to let down. The thing I'm struggling with is letting down as soon as I need to and not have a mini debate in my head about it.


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## Blue X

northern rednek said:


> I can't believe how many shots I've forced to go off. I've been shooting and every time it doesn't feel right or takes to long to go off I let down. I've been letting down lots, but I haven't been making nearly as many bad shots. I used to think if I could hold the shot till it went I was mentally tough but now I'm realizing that if it takes to long something's wrong and it's time to let down. The thing I'm struggling with is letting down as soon as I need to and not have a mini debate in my head about it.


U know what a selinoid is. Well as soon as the first thought about debate it trips the selinoid to let down.


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## northern rednek

That's what I'll have to learn. It's like what was mentioned earlier about people thinking letting down is failure. I have to work on aborting the shot if anything but aiming enters my head.


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## EPLC

Building confidence... I was anxious to shoot today because I wanted to see if the confidence I came away with yesterday would carry over to today. I didn't get the chance to shoot for score today as my schedule was messed up. What I did do was shoot for about 3/4 hour at our 30 yard field butt. Specifically, I wanted to work on the "Relax the Bow Arm" step of my process. I was pleased with my results as my range of motion continued to improve. I'm also seeing where little tweaks in my equipment may help my range of motion as well. I think a tad more draw length will smooth things our even more as I still feel a little cramped.

For the first time I feel that I truly understand exactly how to put them in the middle. Prior to working to improve my process, I would say variations of: "Every arrow that I shoot correctly goes in the X"... but the problem was that I really didn't understand what "correctly" was. I think I'm on my way to that understanding. 

On my way off the course I stopped at our practice range for just one more end... This 4 arrow group was typical of what I was getting for the entire exercise.


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## northern rednek

EPLC said:


> Building confidence... I was anxious to shoot today because I wanted to see if the confidence I built yesterday would carry over to today. I didn't get the chance to shoot for score today as my schedule was messed up. What I did do was shoot for about 3/4 hour at our 30 yard field butt. Specifically, I wanted to work on the "Relax the Bow Arm" step of my process. I was pleased with my results as my range of motion continued to improve.
> 
> For the first time I feel that I truly understand exactly how to put them in the middle. Prior to working to improve my process, I would say variations of: "Every arrow that I shoot correctly goes in the X"... but the problem was that I really didn't understand what "correctly" was. I think I'm on my way to that understanding.
> 
> On my way off the course I stopped at our practice range for just one more end... This 4 arrow group was typical of what I was getting for the entire exercise.


Good job, this thread has done a lot for my mental game. Time will tell but if I can keep building on what I've learned this week I'll reach my first goal.


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## cbrunson

Blue X said:


> U know what a selinoid is. Well as soon as the first thought about debate it trips the selinoid to let down.


Yep. That first thought is your confidence in the shot jumping out the window. If you think, "I should let down", do it.


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## ron w

exactly, if the thought of "letdown" appears....let down. trust your confidence to make the decision about letting down....if the thought arises...your confidence is what is suggesting it.


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## ctownshooter

tagged for later


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## EPLC

Confidence can be fleeting. Sunday I went to a local field shoot. While on the practice butt I noticed my bow didn't seem as quiet as usual but it seemed to be grouping well with the exception of some unexplained flyers. At some point I noticed that my QAD rest had yellow marks on the launcher from fletching contact. The first half was a horrible 248. At the half I shot 3 or 4 ends on the practice butt at 40 yards. All my arrows were in the 5 ring and the bow was back to its normal quiet self...Hmmm. I started off the second half with four 20's and a couple of 19's before the sky opened up. The rain came down pretty hard and dampened the rest of the half so I only came away with a 264. While I'm sure the rest had much to do with my horrible 1st half I'm just as sure that my confidence wasn't there either and compounded my issues. 

Last evening I ran some tests using foot powder on the launcher and found no contact. I figured whatever the problem was it must have corrected itself. This morning I shot a full 28 targets and started out just fine. After a few ends I started to see the foot powder left on from last night was being hit and as I continued shooting yellow started building up on the launcher again. Of course my shooting went in the crapper watching this. Tonight I'm not even sure how much of my problems were due to the launcher and how much were due to my loss of confidence because of the launcher? I do know this: My confidence is building but still very fragile. 

On the good side of this; my QAD rest has a lifetime warranty and they have excellent customer support so its on its way to QAD for repair of replacement along with another for an unrelated issue.


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## northern rednek

I had a very similar experience this weekend. I was at a 3d shoot and the first 20 targets I was on fire, I was following the advice from this thread and was scoring 203 on a course that everyone said was very difficult. My wife shot an arrow and it was load and missed the target. The chord on her qad some how slipped and the launcher didn't go down. I re did the timing on the coarse and looked at mine and the serving I use to tie mine in was coming apart. The next 10 targets didn't go as well, it was in the back of my mind. Didn't help that I shot an arrow without a point, stupid mistake. Finished second with a 286. I'm super pumped about the first 20 tho. I will use that to build on.


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## ron w

the biggest hurdle with that confidence is getting the execution to run sub-consciously. if you're having trouble in the "bridge"...that area of process, where you first initiate the shot execution, get back to the blind bale and run your release execution drills. your shot process hasn't learned that, "OK let's get the release started", part of the shot execution well enough yet.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> the biggest hurdle with that confidence is getting the execution to run sub-consciously. if you're having trouble in the "bridge"...that area of process, where you first initiate the shot execution, get back to the blind bale and run your release execution drills. your shot process hasn't learned that, "OK let's get the release started", part of the shot execution well enough yet.


I'm not even sure I grasp this yet. I still find my mind going to the back end no matter how much effort I use to try and prevent it. The other issue I have is my eye going to the reticle from the X. In spite of all this I do shoot reasonable much of the time... but I do still have those days


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> I'm not even sure I grasp this yet. I still find my mind going to the back end no matter how much effort I use to try and prevent it. The other issue I have is my eye going to the reticle from the X. In spite of all this I do shoot reasonable much of the time... but I do still have those days


This is echoing my situation almost exactly right now... Just can't seem to find my way over that hump of total trust. I can feel it starting to work on its own at times, but then the ol' head jumps in and gums up the process. It can get really exasperating at times!


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> This is echoing my situation almost exactly right now... Just can't seem to find my way over that hump of total trust. I can feel it starting to work on its own at times, but then the ol' head jumps in and gums up the process. It can get really exasperating at times!


I have flashes and streaks of "trust" but setbacks and hurdles are continually put in the path. That said; I continue to work the shot process into my game and continue to see progress. I've had some really good streaks of 20's shooting field doing this and seem to be able to pull myself back when in trouble easier.


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## northern rednek

X 3


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## EPLC

Today, shooting a different bow with no rest problems, a better outcome was at hand for a 14T field. With the exception of a 17 and 18 back to back on the 55 and 25 (simply due to sloppy execution) everything else was either 19 or 20. Historically, a setback such as I had over the weekend could have sent me into a confusion tailspin. Having a shot process that I trust enabled me to analyze and identify the issue, correct the problem and start shooting where I had left off... even with a different bow. I was also able to see clearly that some issues I've been having over the past week or so were equipment related, not process or execution related. I feel pretty good today about the recent progress I've made and expect it to continue.


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## ron w

good point EPLC,....
when you know and trust your execution, it becomes more apparent, if the problems are you or the equipment. I think so many people look at equipment right away, because they have no identifiable and reliable execution to trust, as a basis of evaluation. again, every element of the shot process supports another element. you can expand that phrase outwardly from the smallest element of your process, all the way out, to the overall physical activity of shooting the bow. if one element, anywhere, is weak, there will be another element, that is affected.
the better you know and trust your execution, the easier it will be to identify the weak spot and figure out how to fix it.
when you have no established and trusted execution, you have nothing to compare to what is correct, or what works best for you.
that is where we have to rely on what is considered "normal and proper execution"....at least to the point of establishing a basis for our shot to operate on, then move on to what works better for us as an individual shooter.
learn the basics first, establish that they work reliably, and then fine tune or alter, to our individual needs.
in my athletic endeavors, I was involved in sports that were very dependent on form and technique....tennis, speed skating, bike racing and even in fly fishing, I grew up learning that the basics of these sports techniques, are the foundation of the performance you produce. in archery, it is natural and easy for me to rely on what is the basic accepted foundation of good shooting.
that reliance, makes it easy to build a trusted execution and understand what is needed, to do so.


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## EPLC

*Shot Process*

After dealing with arrow rest issues over a couple of hours yesterday afternoon I wanted to test out the bow. Killing 2 birds with one stone, I decided to work on my shot process shooting a 20 cm "bunny" face from 7 yards while testing the setup. After 30 arrows I only had 3 that were out of the 1/2" group. This is much better than I've experienced when having no particular goal in mind shooting at this same range as just flinging arrows can get pretty sloppy. Since working the shot process my concentration has improved along with small tweaks in my form and equipment. My average for a 14T field round is also up about 3 points.


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## EPLC

Once again, shooting short range hasn't done the trick for me. I went to my club this afternoon and shot a 14T field round and it started off very ugly. Prior to shooting the round I warmed up at 35 yards... very sloppy. After 4 or 5 sloppy ends at 35 I shot the 14 target course. I started out very sloppy, just like the 35. I couldn't for the life of me seem to get going but gradually my shot process came around and I started grouping at 5 or 6 targets in. Not sure why this doesn't work for me but it doesn't... I've proven this to myself time and time again.


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## Ned250

EPLC said:


> Once again, shooting short range hasn't done the trick for me. I went to my club this afternoon and shot a 14T field round and it started off very ugly. Prior to shooting the round I warmed up at 35 yards... very sloppy. After 4 or 5 sloppy ends at 35 I shot the 14 target course. I started out very sloppy, just like the 35. I couldn't for the life of me seem to get going but gradually my shot process came around and I started grouping at 5 or 6 targets in. Not sure why this doesn't work for me but it doesn't... I've proven this to myself time and time again.


Why would you expect a single session to make a tangible difference? I'm just spit balling here, but maybe you had higher expectations that the single session would be the magic bullet. Once you got past that and settled down, things came together. Speaking from experience here; this happens to me a lot after making a change to something.


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## ron w

having trouble in the area of initiating your release, that moment when the release execution decides to run, defines the basis of the condition of your "sub conscious release not bridging, or applying itself to the shot". simply, you have not quite yet, developed a "reliable sub conscious release execution" if you have to think, "OK get going" the "path", or "bridge" is not "clear and willing to be traveled on", so to speak. more work at the blind bale and the short yardage bale with a target to teach the process to apply itself is needed.
that thought of " OK lets go" is the key clue to the problem. there should be no "conscious thought" in that direction needed, it's initiation should be triggered by the sight of a decent sight picture and the only thought should that of deciding to "let it run" or "stop it, because the sight picture isn't right".
when it's well ingrained, you will have the feeling that you are doing nothing, nothing at all, to get the shot to go. just draw, established the sight picture and wait, concentrating on the X.
your shot process, cannot learn this at 20 yards or more when actually shooting. it has to learned where your shot process doesn't have to deal with applying all it's attention to sight management. the only place that exists, is where it is easy to stay in the center of the target.....up close, where the center is comparatively large, and movement, doesn't stray the sight picture enough to require concentrated correction while the release execution is trying to learn how to apply itself to the shot. if the brain has to apply it's energy to sight alignment, it cannot work on learning what it should do to apply the release execution to the shot procedure. as long as this conflict of activity exists, your trust and confidence in your execution will not be able to develop. it may be there to a degree, but it will plateau and run only to the level that it is comfortable, when it has to run out side that comfort level, is when you have the balking problems arise.
this said and understood, it's easy to see why that confidence cannot be developed at actual shooting distance.....the task of sight alignment interferes with the learning process, the shot execution needs to learn to apply itself to the shot. every time you shoot at distance, if your execution is not well ingrained, you are automatically and assuredly, putting a blockade up for that development to proceed.


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## dua lam pa

EPLC said:


> Once again, shooting short range hasn't done the trick for me. I went to my club this afternoon and shot a 14T field round and it started off very ugly. Prior to shooting the round I warmed up at 35 yards... very sloppy. After 4 or 5 sloppy ends at 35 I shot the 14 target course. I started out very sloppy, just like the 35. I couldn't for the life of me seem to get going but gradually my shot process came around and I started grouping at 5 or 6 targets in. Not sure why this doesn't work for me but it doesn't... I've proven this to myself time and time again.



Your going to need to reprogram your physical shot and develope a mental shot. 
This will require time , efforts and desire to change.
If 30 arrows at 7 yards is all it took ....


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## EPLC

No, I didn't think 30 arrows at 7 yards would fix anything... nor did I expect to have to clear my head from it, although by now you'd think I'd know. For the record, I have shot tens of thousands of arrows from 7-13 yards... I have found this type of shooting tends to make me more sloppy with less than the desired concentration at longer distances.


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## dua lam pa

EPLC said:


> No, I didn't think 30 arrows at 7 yards would fix anything... nor did I expect to have to clear my head from it, although by now you'd think I'd know. For the record, I have shot tens of thousands of arrows from 7-13 yards... I have found this type of shooting tends to make me more sloppy with less than the desired concentration at longer distances.


For sake of converastion ,
What type of shooting tends to make you less sloppy and concentrate better at longer distances and why are you not doing it ? 
What type of shooting will help you reach your potential ?
How often to you reconfirm in writing the things that dont work for you ?


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## montigre

dua lam pa said:


> How often to you reconfirm in writing the things that dont work for you ?


This might be the key to EPLC's issues. Shooting tens of thousands of short range arrows while duplicating the errors is not going to do much to improve one's game. 

However, keeping a journal of these practices and *referring to it frequently* will substantially improve the odds of short-distance shooting success that can more easily transfer to longer distances.


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## EPLC

dua lam pa said:


> For sake of converastion ,
> What type of shooting tends to make you less sloppy and concentrate better at longer distances and why are you not doing it ?


Actually I am doing just that. I like to do my warm up ends at 35 yards. I like to practice at 50.



dua lam pa said:


> What type of shooting will help you reach your potential ?


That's a pretty open question so I'll say field archery.



dua lam pa said:


> How often to you reconfirm in writing the things that dont work for you ?


The only place I comment about the things that don't seem to work for me is here on AT. If anything, I think reconfirming the things I do correctly would be better. That said, I'm far from a beginner, I have good form and have put many hours developing it. I HAD to as I'm a natural righty shooting lefty. When shooting I have streaks where I shoot as good as anyone... although I have difficulty figuring out why this happens and how to repeat this level of shooting at will. My recent work on my shot process is definitely helping to identify and understand the things I am doing right and I'm better able at this point to duplicate those things. I still have a way to go though. Thanks to a Blue X suggestion, I'm about to try something a little different to work strictly on the mental aspects of my game.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> This might be the key to EPLC's issues. Shooting tens of thousands of short range arrows while duplicating the errors is not going to do much to improve one's game.
> 
> However, keeping a journal of these practices and *referring to it frequently* will substantially improve the odds of short-distance shooting success that can more easily transfer to longer distances.


Been there, done that, didn't help. I've gone through periods with and without journals and they didn't seem to help one way or another. They certainly didn't hurt. As far as short range shooting goes, I wish it worked out better for me. I have the time and can manage a 14 yard shot in my basement. I actually like shooting down there as it is relaxing and I do it a lot. I had a period, prior to developing my right hand shooting issues, where I put a huge amount of effort into training at short range, including journals, etc. I also was at that time at the top of my RH game. In 2001 I won the New England 3d sectional championship in the 55-65 senior class. I shot 42 up on a 60 target course. In 2002 I suddenly developed a tremor shooting RH which messed me up for the next 5 or 6 years. Since switching to LH I've worked very hard on coming back to where I was in 2001 and I actually shoot better than that now. That said, I'm not where I want to be. Where I want to be is this: I want to be able to shoot at the level of the streaks that I mentioned above at will. At this point I cannot.


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## montigre

EPLC said:


> That said, I'm not where I want to be. Where I want to be is this: I want to be able to shoot at the level of the streaks that I mentioned above at will. At this point I cannot.


42 up is some amazing shooting and definitely something to be historically proud of!!

However, and I say the following from very personal experience and with the deepest sincerity, in order for you to reach your current shooting goals, you're going to have to put those former great streaks and that other archer completely out of your mind. You are not, nor will you ever be RH EPLC again; that time has past; that person is gone. 

You have to find in your soul the archer you are now and learn with a clean slate how to bring that person forward into the limelight.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> 42 up is some amazing shooting and definitely something to be historically proud of!!
> 
> However, and I say the following from very personal experience and with the deepest sincerity, in order for you to reach your current shooting goals, you're going to have to put those former great streaks and that other archer completely out of your mind. You are not, nor will you ever be RH EPLC again; that time has past; that person is gone.
> 
> You have to find in your soul the archer you are now and learn with a clean slate how to bring that person forward into the limelight.


Perhaps you misread my post. I shoot as good or better from the left side than the old RH EPLC ever did. My issues concern getting to that next level... which for me would be to just shoot regularly at a level that I now shoot sporadically. The streaks I mentioned are happening now as well as in the past.


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## ron w

you have to separate "practice" from "working on shot execution confidence", remember only "perfect practice makes perfect shots". in order to practice well, or "perfect", shot execution has to already be confident, in the first place,.... and it cannot be developed if you are concentrating on hitting the center at 20 or 30 or 50 yards. you aren't practicing "execution" when you are "practicing".... you are practicing the application of the current level of competence of your execution, to the shot. 
what-ever flaws you have in your execution will remain there, as you practice at distance, because the present mission of your execution, during "practice" is to allow your energy to be applied to hitting the middle of the bulls eye, not developing a better execution.


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## northern rednek

ron w said:


> you have to separate "practice" from "working on shot execution confidence", remember only "perfect practice makes perfect shots". in order to practice well, or "perfect", shot execution has to already be confident, in the first place,.... and it cannot be developed if you are concentrating on hitting the center at 20 or 30 or 50 yards. you aren't practicing "execution" when you are "practicing".... you are practicing the application of the current level of competence of your execution, to the shot.
> what-ever flaws you have in your execution will remain there, as you practice at distance, because the present mission of your execution, during "practice" is to allow your energy to be applied to hitting the middle of the bulls eye, not developing a better execution.


This is why I'm going to rebuild my shot. I've been letting down when it doesn't feel right but have found that I'll at times have to let down 3 times in a row and end up forcing the shot. I need to blind bale only for a longer period of time. I'm on holidays so I'm going to not touch a bow for 2 weeks then rebuild my shot. Indoor for me starts in 5 months and I'm going to seriously prepare. I totally get what Ron is saying and believe it. I need to get my execution so automatic that without thought I can execute, the target no matter the distance is just the end conclusion.


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## ron w

yah, I've found that the blind baling is the routine that gets "short cutted" the most and that is the main reason guys have problems. it's a bear to do enough to do some real help, but it's got to be done to take that step up in your shooting.
once your process knows the benefits from blind baling, try frequent short sessions in between you regular shooting. you'll be surprised how much just "reminding and refreshing" your subconscious helps.


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## Iowa shooter

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm going to put this out there.

If you read Terry Wunderle's book, he has you concentrate on the execution and subconcience on the target.

Right or wrong, it might be worth a try.


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## SonnyThomas

Blind bale, blind bale, blind bale..... You know there is such a thing as transferring the shot. Blind bale, target, blind bale, target. More like you know you did right on the blank bale and then shoot a target. Like it isn't a matter of shot execution. It's a matter of how bad you want it.


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## dua lam pa

Iowa shooter said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm going to put this out there.
> 
> If you read Terry Wunderle's book, he has you concentrate on the execution and subconcience on the target.
> 
> Right or wrong, it might be worth a try.


 
#1 dont wont your advice if you not fully informed ! Read the truckin thread , and respect the people you are dealing with ! 
#2 pretty sure most persons here know what Terry has written.
#3


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## ron w

I can honestly say that I don not know what Mr. Wunderle has written,.... I have never read his book....I have never read any particular book that specifically addresses archery...I have no need to. but, I am positively sure that it is in line with the things I post, because what I post is, has been and always will be, the standard of good shot development, since archery was a sport.


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## SonnyThomas

northern rednek said:


> Hello, how do you build trust in your shot execution. I believe I'm on the verge of being a 300 Vegas face shooter but the problem I have is trusting in my shot execution. *I find my mind wants to jump back and forth between aiming and my back tension. I I get anchored and start my back tension then switch to aiming, but if the shot doesn't go off right away my mind goes back to execution, then I force myself to aim etc. *Is there an exercise to help with this? Probably blank bailing, eh?


The subject, the problem.


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## Iowa shooter

dua lam pa said:


> #1 dont wont your advice if you not fully informed ! Read the truckin thread , and respect the people you are dealing with !
> #2 pretty sure most persons here know what Terry has written.
> #3


List the tournaments you have won and in what class, if you request the respect of others.


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## dua lam pa

Iowa shooter said:


> List the tournaments you have won and in what class, if you request the respect of others.


Apoligies for coming at you like that - 
you have a pm


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