# Would a Pro pins class be a good idea?



## cybershooter (Oct 16, 2005)

It's been discussed at length on ASA's site. Opinions vary. A Pro class where the only difference from the Open class would be that you shoot fixed pins? Would IBO and ASA adopt such a class? Would it be a flop? Would the manufacturers like it? What do ya think?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Would a Pro oins class be a good idea?*

If you and I are thinking a like, I think a Pro pin class would be the thing being there are tons more fixed pin shooters than movable sight/scope shooters. I've raised the question a few times to my state's NFAA Director and his reply was; "They (don't know who) want only one champion." Right now, that looks like the Pro Free Style classes. If I am correct, in ASA the number of shooters in a class detrimines how much money is paid out. I have no idea how the IBO pays out. At our club I've seen 125 shooters in the Men's CBFSR class (compound, fixed sights, release) and a high of 15 or 18 in Men's ULMSR class (Unlimited, movable sights, release). Infact, every club that I attend always have something of 8 to 1 ratio of fixed pins and movable sight shooters.


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## baylward (Aug 18, 2003)

I do not think that you will see the IBO add a Pro pin class. It would be nice but I heared then say if there is need to add a class then they will try to add a class.:wink::wink:


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

Can you shoot pins in the pro class now? If you can, do you think it is a disadvantage to shoot pins against a scope? You could still adjust your site while on the range, you would go by the open class rule wouldnt you? If its better to shoot a scope everyone should shoot one. Iam just asken. I dont realy have and opinoin on this.


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## DirtNapTV (Aug 7, 2005)

*Pro Pins*

Cybershooter, I bet when you started that thread you never dreamed it would be one of the most read on the forum.

Well I really think the Pro Pins would become a huge class if the ASA let the class happen.

As far as IBO and NFAA I think they would follow if the shooters were to support a new pro class. The ASA has a chance to pioneer this class and I think alot of shooters that have stopped shooting would go back to shooting.

Don't believe me just read the replies.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

It would probably be a good idea since the bowhunter class shoots fixed pins... and thats the majority of the shooters at most shoots. But also how many people in the bowhunter class complain about moving up?????????? Several..... At local shoots, I would bet that most (not all) bowhunters would quit before they would move up... I've seen it many times, for instance, my brother shot in the bowhunter class and would pretty much place atleast in most of the shoots. A fellow kept raging him about moving up saying he shouldn't be in that class, so he did move up, shot a few shoots and done descent in that class, and then he just quit, said it wasn't fun anymore!!!!!!!!!

But one thing for sure, if the class does make a go at it, and there starts being more people shooting in the Pro Pins class instead of the Pro Moveable sight class, that would probably be the end of the Moveable sight class.. Because you know most of the guys in that class would go to where the money is..................


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Garantee*

Some of the pros would move over from scope class and win.:wink:

I dont see many paying $250.00 to shoot against these top pros.

I actually see those in the middle of the pack in pro FS class moving to this class and winning.

I think some think they would win this class. When the top pros would and can shoot pins with the best shooters in the pin classes now.:wink:

Im sure ASA realizes this and why there hesitate about the move. Numbers might drop in pro fs class. Kinda like the BH class in indoor. 
DB


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Some of the pros would move over from scope class and win.:wink:
> 
> I dont see many paying $250.00 to shoot against these top pros.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with you DB...
I know of one Pro that swears he use to shoot Pins better than he has ever shot a Scope/Slidebar. And he is one that usually is in the middle of the pack...
I've also thought about this, Why would they have a Pro Fingers class?? How many shoot that class?? It really doesn't make since not to have a Pro Pins class.... IMO


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## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

If you had 10,000 pro shooters at every event I would agree with the extra class but at most shoots you have less than 100. I don't think weakening small payouts even further is something most pros want.


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## dspell20 (Nov 23, 2004)

This is a hot topic in the ASA and there would have to be recognition of this pro class across organizations (IBO) in order for the sponsors to recognize it as a pro class for pay outs. 

Some suggestions are to make MBR/unlimited (ASA) the proclass and use a class like AHC/HC(asa) as your amature class and still have HC/Bownovice (ASA) as beginner classes. 

At the 1st leg in bedford there were 126-MBR, 107-AHC, and 234 HC shooters. also there were 62-PMR, 22-PMF, and 66-SPM

I think that this would be worth a try for a few years. If it does not work then oh well. Also I would not be so sure that the current pros would jump classes to shoot pins. It is one thing to hunt with them and another thing to shoot them at a target. And I would think that a pro pins class would get at least 22 participants like PMF at Bedford.


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

I would give it a try for sure! I can't beat the top Pro's with their scopes and slide bars. I bet I could make the top ten in a Pro Pins class though!


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## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Why not just have a separate class for each shooter entered? 600 shooters= 600 classes. That way everybody can be a winner and be a champion everytime. Come on people, think a little, we need more classes in 3D like we need another colored yardage stake.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Why*

Are the top amatuer pin shooters saying they can beat the top FS shooters with pins?

We had a large money shoot last year here in my state. Pins only allowed.

I never shot pins sight before. I did very well in this event. Pins isnt that hard to learn to shoot. Why are we wanting are pros to shoot pin class? 

Attendance seems excellant in the classes now.

Understand its fine by me. I still say most are not going to pay $250.00 entry fee.


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

*Not gonna Happen*

We have Been trying to get a pro pins class for years with no luck.  I hate shooting a slide bar but can compete with them. It would just be nice to shoot my pins against other pin shooters. 

DB- Just think if their is another pro class that is just more people for you to cheer for LOL!!!!:wink:

Junkie


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Pro pin class*



bowjunkie said:


> We have Been trying to get a pro pins class for years with no luck.  I hate shooting a slide bar but can compete with them. It would just be nice to shoot my pins against other pin shooters.
> 
> DB- Just think if their is another pro class that is just more people for you to cheer for LOL!!!!:wink:
> 
> Junkie


Your telling me you would shoot and pay $250.00 a shoot against the top pros in 3D? If there was a Pro pin class. Gillingham can shoot pins
You can garantee many pros would drop back and shoot this class.
DB


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Your telling me you would shoot and pay $250.00 a shoot against the top pros in 3D? If there was a Pro pin class. Gillingham can shoot pins
> You can garantee many pros would drop back and shoot this class.
> DB


I would shoot the Pro Pin Class but How many pros really pay their Entry fees? :zip: Junkie


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I like the idea of a Pro Pins class. 

But I also think that all classes should be combined....but with different levels like Pro, A, B, C.

There is no need IMHO for the 50 different classes that we have. I like shooting pins but I also like shooting a long stabilizer and side rods......

So shoot what you bring is what I say. With the different levels (like in the Open class) you are still shooting against people on your level....

I know when I shoot pins in field I still shoot with the freestyle guys......I also shoot pins sometimes shooting 3D and still shoot with the Open guys. It doesn't change your score really....I know indoors I shoot the same or even slightly higher shooting pins, but since I can't shoot a long stab I don't shoot BHFS.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I actually know several*



bowjunkie said:


> I would shoot the Pro Pin Class but How many pros really pay their Entry fees? :zip: Junkie


Believe it or not. Dont think sponsors would be paying the pro pin class.
Heck Bowtec dont pay any pro class shooters:tongue: So I know you would be:wink: Ill be paying mine next year. Just a wnnabe pro. Saving for it right now.
DB
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I have a feeling about this*



Brown Hornet said:


> I like the idea of a Pro Pins class.
> 
> But I also think that all classes should be combined....but with different levels like Pro, A, B, C.
> 
> ...


There not talking long stabilizers. Maybe Im wrong. 
DB
DB


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Believe it or not. Dont think sponsors would be paying the pro pin class.
> Heck Bowtec dont pay any pro class shooters:tongue: So I know you would be:wink: Ill be paying mine next year. Just a wnnabe pro. Saving for it right now.
> DB
> DB


IF it is a PRO class then they can be talked into it. If I was to shoot Pro Class I would make sure it would be worth my time. :wink: 

btw we shoot long stabilizers in the MBR or Unlimited class.

Junkie


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## SPECTRE (Aug 20, 2003)

I think the pin class would be a good thing. As I understand it............ the rules would follow the current "unlimited" class in the ASA. Long stabilizers, fixed pins, magnification allowed. 

Here's what I see as the positive features of the class:

1. It would allow the current unlimited shooters to advance using the same equipment.

2. It might actually increase attendance at the ASA's (even if on a minor level.) Many unlimited guys just can't / don't want to sling arrows with open big guns. I know from experience that the transition is a kick in the butt. You second guess yourself to death, not to mention forgetting about moving your sight after each shot............


Here's what I see as the negative:

1. Many pros who aren't making the cut on Sunday would probably revert to this class to try to "steal" a win, which would decrease the payouts in the open pro class (and don't say this doesn't happen............ happens in Vegas every year). The biggest gripe in the pro class is always about the money, or the lack thereof.

And a side note for those interested in shooting this class..............

You can only make 1 "gang adjustment" per round to your sights............ and you have to notify the group when you're taking your Mulligan............   

Gang adjustment definition: Moving the entire apeture (all the pins at once, pins cannot be manipulated individually).:wink:

Just so the rules are stated up front and there's no confusion..................:zip:

All in all, I'd like to see them have a go at it.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> There not talking long stabilizers. Maybe Im wrong.
> DB
> DB



Like Junkie said.....MBR and Unlimited can shoot a long rod....a lens also.

That is another reason that I would like to see everyone in one class. Pin shooters can shoot with open class shooters. I would more then likely switch to pins for everything but field/FITA. The only reason I wouldn't do it there is because of the distance.


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## TANC (Mar 14, 2005)

As for the ASA, the reality is that most of us wouldn't pay $250 to shoot against guys in the Bowhunter class, so we certainly wouldn't pay it to shoot against some of the proven best shooters in the country. 

The biggest problem I see here is what others have said. If any of the Open Pros move over to that class, then there goes the money payout, and they already are looking for ways to grow that class so there will be bigger payouts. The Open Pros wish all of us would shoot with them.

The only way I see this working is if there is some way to make this a class to upgrade to from the hunter pin classes without allowing past Open Pro shooters in. The hunter classes are big enough now to continue to support themselves. If this could happen, then I think it's a good idea. And I think it should remain hunter class rules.

But I predict this Pro Pin class won't happen.


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## Camo (Jan 12, 2005)

I love the idea of a Pro Pins class. I think the manufacturers should support it as I think it would generate alot more interest in the Pro Class as they are shooting pins just like the majority of people that buy their bows. Kind of like the race it on Sunday, and buy it on Monday theroy that motorsports counts on. The Monte Carlo on the NASCAR track sold alot of them at the dealerships. I could be wrong, but it somehow makes sence to me.:wink:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Its not stealing*



SPECTRE said:


> I think the pin class would be a good thing. As I understand it............ the rules would follow the current "unlimited" class in the ASA. Long stabilizers, fixed pins, magnification allowed.
> 
> Here's what I see as the positive features of the class:
> 
> ...


Its not stealing. Just like any pro shooting Bowhunter class in NFAA. Its Pro and open to anyone and everyone. But you can bet many of those open guys would be dropping back to shoot it. $250.00 entry fee is tough for most.
I dont see many making this leap.
DB


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## Camo (Jan 12, 2005)

If this was adapted to local level shoots, you could have Pro Pin Class shooting the comp peg with pins. I have done that quite a bit in years past, but now shoot Hunter class to shoot for score to see how I am doing. I like the long shots, but have no desire to shoot with a scope set up. I also think that magnification would also ruin the Pro Pin Class, as I'd leave that to the Pro Class we already have.


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## DirtNapTV (Aug 7, 2005)

*Pro Pins*

Xtreme Outdoors USA has offered $1000.00 first place contingency in a pro pins class for ASA only shoots but since that offer the ASA has not responded good or bad.

I think the class should not allow a lense or long stabilizers and shoot the 50 yard max. I also think they should have to shoot camo bows so the ASA could go to the camo companies for contingency and sponsor help.

That would help to keep the open pros from going to the pro pins class but of course it is just talk so far as we know it.

If the ASA wants more open pros then drop the entry fee and drop semi-pro and 20 or so of these guys would go pro.


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## Silverarcher98 (Dec 27, 2006)

There ya go buddy always throwing a cat in a dog lot. I love the idea maybe ASA will try it. Lt 066:darkbeer:


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## Archerybuff (Oct 6, 2002)

I think one of the biggest hurdles is that guys shooting in this new pro class would then be considered a "PRO". So when he shoots in IBO and NFAA he would be forced to shoot the Pro classes. A shooter wouldn't be allowed to move back into the am's. So the issue isn't "will the ASA make this new class", but rather will all the major oganizations support or accomodate the new class or penalize the shooter.
It doesn't seem to me that many people are listening to DB either. All these guys that say they would shoot in a Pro pins class, probably won't when they have to pay $250 per shoot. Especially when a few of the big guns drop back and take thier money. If your not going to cough up $250 to shoot open equip, I doubt very many will pay up for a pins class. JMO
I wonder if just taking the cap off of the amount of money a shooter can win per year wouldn't do the same thing?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

3DMountaineer said:


> Xtreme Outdoors USA has offered $1000.00 first place contingency in a pro pins class for ASA only shoots but since that offer the ASA has not responded good or bad.
> 
> I think the class should not allow a lense or long stabilizers and shoot the 50 yard max. I also think they should have to shoot camo bows so the ASA could go to the camo companies for contingency and sponsor help.
> 
> ...



You are right none of the Pros shoot camo bows or have camo bows.

Besides who cares what color bow you shoot. Lots of people have camo sponsors.....and they don't compete with a camo bow.

Having pins has nothing to do with the stab length. IF the class is going to be shot in the ASA......long stabs will be allowed.....and more then likely a lens will be allowed as well.

But I don't think the #'s are low in the Pro class because of the entry fee...it has more to do with people not wanting to donate their money the % of people that can actually win a Pro event is very small.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

SPECTRE said:


> I think the pin class would be a good thing. As I understand it............ the rules would follow the current "unlimited" class in the ASA. Long stabilizers, fixed pins, magnification allowed.
> 
> Here's what I see as the positive features of the class:
> 
> ...


Good Post, and I agree! I shot Unlimited in ASA last yr.And when I went to a Scope and Mover, I thought that I could go to OpenC(amateur w/scope) Well I couldn't, so I had to shoot OpenB, no big deal...It has been extremely tough making this transition, I actually think that I would shoot better w/my pins...Almost wish that I had never left Unlimited.


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## Stormy_NY (Dec 6, 2005)

*Couple questions ......*

Why can you only shoot fixed pins in Bowhunter class ? When I hunt, I use a movable site. 

Do you guys really think using a single pin movable site is easier then fixed pins? Or is it just personal choice .....I am talking Non-magnification.


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## Camo (Jan 12, 2005)

If it is a pins class then the lens ought to be eliminated, as what would be the difference at that point???


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

Shooting pins is not hard if you are familiar with your bow. I.E. how much will the arrow drop on a 33 yd. shot with a 30 yd. pin, etc. With the mover, you can dial it in to the exact yard and hold dead on. It makes a difference! However, I still shoot the pins better!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Movable pin is much easier*



Stormy_NY said:


> Why can you only shoot fixed pins in Bowhunter class ? When I hunt, I use a movable site.
> 
> Do you guys really think using a single pin movable site is easier then fixed pins? Or is it just personal choice .....I am talking Non-magnification.



Besides its called Freestyle if you shoot mavable pins in 3d.
DB


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## Stormy_NY (Dec 6, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Besides its called Freestyle if you shoot mavable pins in 3d.
> DB


But that is my point DB .....WHY? On the IBO"S home page it states...



> To promote, encourage and foster the sport of BOWHUNTING.


Why are we not able to shoot on a 3d course what we HUNT with. I have decided to start shooting 3d again ...I have been thinking hard about it ...I want to shoot in the Bowhunter Class. I want to shoot 3D with close to the same set up I hunt with. 

Plus my goodness you look on the IBO site and see all the classes and you guys want another class? 

Here is another thought ....would not shooting a bow in a hunting setup be the TRUE test, instead of 36"stabs, 10x scopes plus all the other gizmos.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Stormy_NY said:


> But that is my point DB .....WHY? On the IBO"S home page it states...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all there are different classes so if you don't want to shoot with the " 36" stab and 10X scopes" you don't have to.....Plus nobody shoots 3D with that much power :wink:

I have hunted with a scope before....since that is what I hunt with I guess I can shoot in the bowhunter class....don't think to many would like that.....

Yes the IBO does promote bowhunting.....but let's not forget this is an archery tournamnet....not hunting....it isn't even practice for hunting. It is a tournament. If you go to a skeet or trap shooting tournament you aren't practicing for hunting.:wink:


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## Stormy_NY (Dec 6, 2005)

*Dont think so*



Brown Hornet said:


> First of all there are different classes so if you don't want to shoot with the " 36" stab and 10X scopes" you don't have to.....Plus nobody shoots 3D with that much power :wink:
> 
> I have hunted with a scope before....since that is what I hunt with I guess I can shoot in the bowhunter class....don't think to many would like that.....
> 
> Yes the IBO does promote bowhunting.....but let's not forget this is an archery tournamnet....not hunting....it isn't even practice for hunting. It is a tournament. If you go to a skeet or trap shooting tournament you aren't practicing for hunting.:wink:



First of all ....stop talking to me like I am an idiot. I was doing the IBO tour 11years ago and doing well till life happened.

Why is this not practice for hunting ? That was it's intended purpose, and I think it still is. 

I still dont get it ......


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Stormy_NY said:


> First of all ....stop talking to me like I am an idiot. I was doing the IBO tour 11years ago and doing well till life happened.
> 
> Why is this not practice for hunting ? That was it's intended purpose, and I think it still is.
> 
> I still dont get it ......


First of all I didn't talk to you like you were an idiot.....but if you feel that way....then tough.

Who cares if it was intended to be practice for hunting or not.....look at the gear....the money spent....and the shoots people go to and tell me that they are just practicing for hunting...........3D is target archery not hunting practice.....the ASA has nothing to do with hunting.....and I know you are talking about the IBO also but the ASA is going to be the one that steps up with the class.

So you shoot at 11 and 12 rings on live animals? Most rings aren't in the correct spot for real animals.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*What we are talking about here*



Stormy_NY said:


> But that is my point DB .....WHY? On the IBO"S home page it states...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is taking the pin class to another level. Who said anything about IBO? Could be ASA. I feel it being the bowhunter class. Short stabilizers and no lens. Make it like the NFAA bowhunters class. Fixed pins and no movable.
Could be interesting. And no this isnt bowhunting Shoot your bow you hunt with, doubt you would win:wink: Its a tournament!
DB


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## Hkdfrlife (Sep 25, 2006)

*Pro Pins*

If we're talking about changing the structure of 3D archery, how about a handicap card as in golf or trap. Trap shooters are not limited by their equipment, but by the distance they shoot. Anytime a shooter shoots at a sanctioned event and places in the money, he ought to get moved back in yardage and moved up in the difficulty. area. lets make the playing field so a guy is truely shooting against their peers, regardless of equipment choices. JMHO


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Penalize a guy for being that good*



Hkdfrlife said:


> If we're talking about changing the structure of 3D archery, how about a handicap card as in golf or trap. Trap shooters are not limited by their equipment, but by the distance they shoot. Anytime a shooter shoots at a sanctioned event and places in the money, he ought to get moved back in yardage and moved up in the difficulty. area. lets make the playing field so a guy is truely shooting against their peers, regardless of equipment choices. JMHO


Seen it in many sports. Pro class should be open to anyone and all use the same equipment under the same set of rules. . Thats fair!
DB


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Some of the pros would move over from scope class and win.:wink:
> 
> I dont see many paying $250.00 to shoot against these top pros.
> 
> ...


I totally agree that some of them would move over cause they are mediocre in the PMR classes but some of them along with some of the others you mentioned might get embaressed by some of of us pin shooters so they probably wouldn't make the change, you may have forgot that there is a few pin shooters that are capable of that:wink:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Im sure most will be well aware of what there doing*



ibochamp said:


> I totally agree that some of them would move over cause they are mediocre in the PMR classes but some of them along with some of the others you mentioned might get embaressed by some of of us pin shooters so they probably wouldn't make the change, you may have forgot that there is a few pin shooters that are capable of that:wink:


If your shooting pro class. Paying $250.00 entry fee they darn sure will be shooting and shooting good. Hope you dont embarrass them pros to much So your saying without a doubt you will be shooting Pro if this class happens?
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I would love to see this class*

I enjoy BH Pro Class in indoors. 

Question for most would be! Are you willing to pay the $250.00. Now for most of us average joes thats some serious cash especially if your figuring four to seven national shoots.

I honestly think a entry fee of $125.00 would encourage particapation more on ASA and IBO level.

Just my thoughts. Im certianly realizing the $250.00 entry fee thing for next year. Its something that can and might be a tough road for me next year. Diffiantly car pooling and watching the exxspenses of trying to make four shoots.
DB


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Hmmm???? Wonder how many of those PRO's learned how to shoot a bow with a set of Pins instead of a moveable sight??? If the moneys there, I don't see it being that much of a move for most Pros that decide to switch over... 
Alot people talk that they would shoot a Pro Pins class now, but how many would stick with it when some of the Pros show some people why they are Pros....:wink:

Not saying that there arn't any pin shooters out there that couldn't hang, because I know a few that could come pretty close I think, but there would be alot that got humbled really quick, and then drop out.. And thats probably one of the reasons why there isn't a Pins class....Just my 2 cents..


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

If I'm still shootin when and this happens yes I would most certainly be there do you think I wouldn't? Many pros that shoot now did shooot pins, alot of them from my home town, as a matter of fact several of them bought their first bow from me back in the early 90's I could name 2 of them that I taught how to shoot that went on to win world titles in the pro classes but I won't. It would be nice for them to put some pins back on and come play


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I could name several in your area.*



ibochamp said:


> If I'm still shootin when and this happens yes I would most certainly be there do you think I wouldn't? Many pros that shoot now did shooot pins, alot of them from my home town, as a matter of fact several of them bought their first bow from me back in the early 90's I could name 2 of them that I taught how to shoot that went on to win world titles in the pro classes but I won't. It would be nice for them to put some pins back on and come play



You certianly have the wins to play with them. Hope you get the chance.
But to think some of those pros couldnt come play in a pins class is diffiantly something you and I know they would hold there own.:wink:
DB


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> You certianly have the wins to play with them. Hope you get the chance.
> But to think some of those pros couldnt come play in a pins class is diffiantly something you and I know they would hold there own.:wink:
> DB


Oh, I know they would! It just seemed that you were sayin that just because they were shootin pro now that they would come dominate(take our money) a pins class. A really good unlimited or MBR shooter can consistently shoot with an open sight shooter, but it all goes back to if ya can shoot you can shoot whether its a stick and strang or a fancy rig, agree?:secret:


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## cybershooter (Oct 16, 2005)

Alot of the concern has been that the present Open Pros would flock to this Pro-pins class. What would their peers think of them? Alot of pride would have to be cast aside for such a move. Besides, I would gladly wager money on a top caliber pin shooter against a mediocre Open Pro if they are both shooting pins.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Mediocro pro*



cybershooter said:


> Alot of the concern has been that the present Open Pros would flock to this Pro-pins class. What would their peers think of them? Alot of pride would have to be cast aside for such a move. Besides, I would gladly wager money on a top caliber pin shooter against a mediocre Open Pro if they are both shooting pins.


Exlain that to me. I know most the pros shooting ASA. Aint no mediogro pros there. Ill garantee some could come shoot pins and yes they would win. Have you not watched the BHFS class in NFAA? I would love to see if all you here put the $250.00 on the line if this class happens. And yes I do think those guys would come shoot this class and win.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*If that was the case*



ibochamp said:


> Oh, I know they would! It just seemed that you were sayin that just because they were shootin pro now that they would come dominate(take our money) a pins class. A really good unlimited or MBR shooter can consistently shoot with an open sight shooter, but it all goes back to if ya can shoot you can shoot whether its a stick and strang or a fancy rig, agree?:secret:


Go win the big money. I would wager Gillingham would come win it hnds down.
DB


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

It would be nice to see, but I imagine it will never happen, and I do think I could hold my own, like you said they all started out with pins, well most of them, and I out shot some or most of them at some time or another when they shot in our class, other than gittin old and getting kinda bored with the saga of 3-d I don't see things any different than they were then, back when archery was more fun and there was just a pins, open and manufacturers class. I might even start practicing again, I might have to fine tune things.BTW why do you care you wouldn't shoot it anyway?????


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Why do you say that?*



ibochamp said:


> It would be nice to see, but I imagine it will never happen, and I do think I could hold my own, like you said they all started out with pins, well most of them, and I out shot some or most of them at some time or another when they shot in our class, other than gittin old and getting kinda bored with the saga of 3-d I don't see things any different than they were then, back when archery was more fun and there was just a pins, open and manufacturers class. I might even start practicing again, I might have to fine tune things.BTW why do you care you wouldn't shoot it anyway?????



I garantee I can shoot Pins. Shot them last year for the first time. Won big shoot here in Oklahoma. Actually was surprised how easy it was. I dont shoot a lens and gapping pins wasnt that hard. Just tells me with practice any good pro can do it as well. I happen to care and would be curious to see how it works out. Have a pro pins senior class and who Knows. Ill shoot it next year.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Just so you know*



ibochamp said:


> It would be nice to see, but I imagine it will never happen, and I do think I could hold my own, like you said they all started out with pins, well most of them, and I out shot some or most of them at some time or another when they shot in our class, other than gittin old and getting kinda bored with the saga of 3-d I don't see things any different than they were then, back when archery was more fun and there was just a pins, open and manufacturers class. I might even start practicing again, I might have to fine tune things.BTW why do you care you wouldn't shoot it anyway?????



I shoot a pins class in the Deermans assc. Won the world event twice and just won the state championship this last weekend. I can shoot a pin class quite well. Won a turkey hunt shooting high score with over 300 shooters shooting pins. Won a turkey hunt with Blake Shelton the country western singer.
So you realize many can do it with practice. I have been shooting 25 yrs and still find archery fun today.
DB


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> I garantee I can shoot Pins. Shot them last year for the first time. Won big shoot here in Oklahoma. Actually was surprised how easy it was. I dont shoot a lens and gapping pins wasnt that hard. Just tells me with practice any good pro can do it as well. I happen to care and would be curious to see how it works out. Have a pro pins senior class and who Knows. Ill shoot it next year.
> DB


Sounds like a challange to me. The IBO Nationals is not Oklahoma. The best pin shooters are their and the competion in Tough. Bring yourself to Nelsonville and I will lay down you don't make top 20. It is not as easy as you think or everyone would be doing it. Rember their can only be one winner even if their is only 2 in the class. JMO Junkie


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Do y'all honestly believe that pros actually learned to shoot with a sight bar and scope...???

It is actually more difficult to shoot 3-D with a sight bar and scope than with pins, just ask anyone who has switched from pins. :wink:

I hope y'all get the class, but I think ya' got a long haul ahead to do it...


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

Ain't nothin easy about competing in a pro class in ANY sport. The BEST pin shooters can compete with the best scope shooters no doubt BUT, would the best scope shooters ever consider taking a step "backwards" to come down to the pin "level"? I doubt it will ever happen. Plus, in this proposed class, scope shooters won't be competing head to head against pin shooters....they will just be sharing some of the prize money since it will be another "pro" class.

DB, sounds like you are doing well for yourself shooting pins. Why do you go back to a scope if you do so well locally with pins?


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## GregG (Jan 15, 2004)

I agree with Brian and Martin. If some of the pros or if anybody else wanted to shoot this class great. It would be your choice. I know I would shoot this class. Some shooters are going to move where they can possible make the most money, and if it ends up to be this class so what. In each of the classes there are great shooters. I enjoy shooting pins and it would be great to have a pro pins class. Sight manufactures should love this idea. Because if Martin or Brian wins with (x-sight) it will trickle down into the other classes and hunting world. I do not see to many people hunting with scopes.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Brian*



bowjunkie said:


> Sounds like a challange to me. The IBO Nationals is not Oklahoma. The best pin shooters are their and the competion in Tough. Bring yourself to Nelsonville and I will lay down you don't make top 20. It is not as easy as you think or everyone would be doing it. Rember their can only be one winner even if their is only 2 in the class. JMO Junkie


Doubt if I ever shoot IBO. ASA has plenty of competition. Come win all the events. Never said I could win on National level. Did say Gillingham could come win. I have no doubt those top pros could come give you all you want, I think you know it as well.:wink: Enough money and they would be shooting. No step backwards if cash money on the line.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*More compititon in FS classes*



jonnybow said:


> Ain't nothin easy about competing in a pro class in ANY sport. The BEST pin shooters can compete with the best scope shooters no doubt BUT, would the best scope shooters ever consider taking a step "backwards" to come down to the pin "level"? I doubt it will ever happen. Plus, in this proposed class, scope shooters won't be competing head to head against pin shooters....they will just be sharing some of the prize money since it will be another "pro" class.
> 
> DB, sounds like you are doing well for yourself shooting pins. Why do you go back to a scope if you do so well locally with pins?


If One planning on shooting pro. Right now its Freestyle. But Ill shoot anything and never hesitate.
DB


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## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

I have been hearing people talking about this for some time now... I will probably be black-balled for this but oh well..... My question is why?? I could see this if there was a definate accuracy advantage to using pins... in other words.. it ain't like you can really do any better with pins than you can with a scope... First and foremost, you must think about the promotion of archery... Trust me... there is enough problems trying to get people outside of archery to understand who actually won the tournament... if you add another men's pro division, you are basically making another step back in the promotion of archery... the pro finger class was a mistake years ago but because they got enough sponsor support when it first developed, well... they never have pulled it... and by the way, as far as I know only Mathews pays contingency (not talking about equipment manufacturers-just bow makers) for that class, unless you have a special made up contract from another bow maker... I don't believe I have seen any published contingency for the PMF class other than Mathews... so that could be bought advertising if you really want the truth... but hey... I'm not saying anything is wrong with that... they obvisiously know how to advertise wins and the benefits from doing so.... 

Next, if you don't think the pros would come over and shoot pins you are crazy.... Pros are in this sport to do what?... Make Money... and as far as what most pros would think... that would be easy money.... just look at Vegas in the BHFS class... who usually wins it?.. a pro that can win in the open pro division... The Hammer, Evan Baize, Keith Brown and until they changed the rule, Dave Cousins.... why were they shooting that division?... because there was money to be won and not near the competition..... simple odds.... I have heard many pros say that if that class would come about, they are there!!! 

Really... is it about just keeping the pins on the bow... or is it really about not being able to compete with better shooters and wanting a way of getting to the big stage without beating the best to do it?... If it was all about just the aiming devise you use to hit the target, then why can't you come and compete against the open pros with your pins? Remember, you still have to execute a perfect shot, get the exact yardage and hold fairly steady in the process... then, beat the nerves and the other guy right beside you that has already done all those things before.... Be serious with yourself... Even if the class came about, as many has mentioned b4, how many would support the class at $250 a tournament for every IBO and ASA event... The core of the open pros attend all ASA and IBO events.... 

I have no issues with the desire to have the class... I can understand.... but I don't think it is the best thing for archery.... in my opinion, it is just another division that seperates archery.... 

DISCLAIMER
**the views of the archer above may not be the views of AT, however, you can feel free to rip him apart for his opinions**


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I like your disclaimer Nathan and your views on the matter.


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

*Nathan*

OK I am not going to beat upi up just like to ask a few Questions. You are a pro and could help us out with more info. 

So their is no differance in accuracy from pins to Scope?  
If all the pin sight Mgf. would help support the class would that help? 
The other thing you are saying is that some of the top pros will come over to shoot to make money? Are they human like the rest of us and could be beaten? Please don't take away from the pin shooters. Just because we don't shoot in the pro class doesn't mean we can't, We like to shoot pins and would like to move up but have no where to go. I personally hate a scope for 3D so it will be pins forever for me. 

Thanks for you time
Brian Smith


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

Someone else said on this thread that if we had a Pro Pins class, the Pro's like Gillingham would give us all we want.

Pin shooters should not be underestimated and the Pro's that come over might not like what they get!

There are always 2 sides of a coin!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Pros realize*



jwshooter11 said:


> Someone else said on this thread that if we had a Pro Pins class, the Pro's like Gillingham would give us all we want.
> 
> Pin shooters should not be underestimated and the Pro's that come over might not like what they get!
> 
> There are always 2 sides of a coin!


And are prepared when going to any event. Dont think they would be surprised. There that good. Heres a suggestion to you pin shooters. Get those manufactuers to put up and have a pin class shoot for the big bucks.
Something on the lines of Lancasters. Garantee we can find out real quick.
DB


L


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm Game!


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

jwshooter11 said:


> I'm Game!


Jump in with them pros at Superman City and show em how it's done.... I'm sure you'll fit right in...:wink:


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

Nope! Trying to win shooter of the year in my class this year! If a Pro Pins Class comes about for next year, I'm there!


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

*Done*

As I have found out I am not going to change anybody mind so I am done replying to this thread. If anyone has anything for me PM me. Junkie


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## Goldeneagle (Oct 24, 2002)

I'm considering shooting Unlimited next year. What about those of us that want to shoot it but cannot afford to shoot PRO? I only get to shoot 1 Pro-Am a year and mainly shoot at the State level. If this turns Pro, I will not be able to try it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*No ones saying there wont be amatuer classes*



Goldeneagle said:


> I'm considering shooting Unlimited next year. What about those of us that want to shoot it but cannot afford to shoot PRO? I only get to shoot 1 Pro-Am a year and mainly shoot at the State level. If this turns Pro, I will not be able to try it.


You would still shoot the amatuer class. 
DB


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## Goldeneagle (Oct 24, 2002)

Some of the posts here and on the ASA site make it sound like it would not be that way. If thats the case, LET ER' RIP !


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

There is in round numbers 20 people shooting the Unlimited class at the Pro/Am's... and a 100 shooting in Hunter (20 of which might shoot even)...

Where are these "Pin Pro's" gonna come from? And what will be left?


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## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

bowjunkie said:


> OK I am not going to beat upi up just like to ask a few Questions. You are a pro and could help us out with more info.
> 
> So their is no differance in accuracy from pins to Scope?
> If all the pin sight Mgf. would help support the class would that help?
> ...


Absolutely we can be beat... never made a claim as to we couldn't... I am very aware of the competitiveness of fixed pin shooters... no doubt many are good... but I do disagree that you don't have anywhere to go... if you will look at the rules for Open Pro in the ASA, you will find it states "shoot what you bring"... in other words, bring you pin sights and compete... you have a place to go... if you feel inferior to the scope shooters in the class then don't sign up there.... what this should really be about (instead of the type of equipment we use) is who is the best male archer... Period... regardless of shooting style or class.... that is why I made the statement that PMF (or Pro Male Fingers) was and is a mistake... Seniors is valid... so is Women's Pro... As a matter of fact, Open Pro doesn't say that Seniors or Women cannot compete in that division... it is simply put "Shoot what you bring", regardless of sex or age or equipment classification.... 

Please understand I am not saying you don't have a plea for a Pro Pins class, I just believe that it would not be in the best interest of archery-the game as we know it....


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## Xav (May 26, 2007)

JAVI said:


> Do y'all honestly believe that pros actually learned to shoot with a sight bar and scope...???
> 
> It is actually more difficult to shoot 3-D with a sight bar and scope than with pins, just ask anyone who has switched from pins. :wink:
> 
> I hope y'all get the class, but I think ya' got a long haul ahead to do it...


I disagree. If pins were easier, then unlimited class shooters would choose to shoot non moveable pins sights. A scope with magnification, hold dead on the target will be more accurate for sure. Thats why the classes are like they are.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

I think the argument *isn't* that the best pin shooter is as good as the best scope shooter therefore they should compete against eachother. I'm pretty sure there are some pin shooters that want a piece of the pie but don't want to go up to a scope. If there wasn't any difference in pins vs scope, at least some of the pro shooters would still use pins. Obviously there is an advantage to using a scope.

Nathan probably has a great point here, it might not be in the best interest of the sport however much a few of us want it. I can't afford the entry fee honestly and I certainly won't give a donation every weekend if I think I'm going to get blown out of the water. Maybe a year of Unlimited/MBR experience after this season would be smart anyway.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Xav said:


> I disagree. If pins were easier, then unlimited class shooters would choose to shoot non moveable pins sights. A scope with magnification, hold dead on the target will be more accurate for sure. Thats why the classes are like they are.


It is easier to shoot a non magnified recticle then it is one that is magnified. You run into a ton of different problems shooting a scope.....one being you get a whole lot more movement in your scope then you do with a pin. If it really was that easy to hold dead on....then all of the scope shooters would be shooting 30 up all the time.....

Don't get me wrong I love shooting pins....and a scope. My highest field scores are actually with pins. But it is harder to shoot a scope then pins....the advantage is that you can dial in and don't have to hold off with a scope....

yes there are pin shooters that can run with the big dawgs....but they are few and far between....let's not get ahead of ourselves in thinking that the avg pin shooter is that good. If you want proof of this just look and see what the scores are when they shoot spots or side by side places that share ranges......

There is a reason that the NFAA doesn't allow you to shoot in two classes anymore.....because all the pin shooters were complaining about Cousins kicking their butt and still shooting in the Pro class also.


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## cybershooter (Oct 16, 2005)

NBROOKS, you make some very valid points. It's good to finally get the point of view from a Pro shooter. We could split hairs forever about who's the better archers be it pins or scope. Fact is that there is always a changing of the guard. Guys like you replaced the Ulmers of days gone by and someday you too will be replaced. It's just the natural order of things. 
I guess my question to you is...How do you explain that a pro fixed pins class will hurt 3-D archery? From a manufacturers stand point, wouldn't it be beneficial to have world class archers winning a pro class shooting equipment that bowhunters are likely to buy and hunt with? Bowhunters do make up an estimated 95% of the archery market. 
Once again, thanks for your input. I don't agree with much of what you say here but I now have a great respect for you.


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

bowjunkie said:


> As I have found out I am not going to change anybody mind so I am done replying to this thread. If anyone has anything for me PM me. Junkie


I hear ya Brian, same for me, just sounds to me that some folks are worried that this class would turn out to be better than they think, and as for easier to shoot???? pins??? if thats so then why the heck aint they all shootin them cause if its all about the bucks then I would be shootin the easiest to shoot, wouldn't you???? I'm on my final tour for a while like I said it last year but I'm havin fun this year, I've won every major 3-d title in the IBO, ASA, and the NFAA 3-D nationals shootin pins and if this class did come about and I DECIDED to start back shootin I guess I would just have too win it too, but until then I guess we'll never know, just think about Brian if we did shoot that class then when could take 4-5 mins per shot, and have our own special range!!!!!!!!! JUst kiddin you guys don't git your feathers ruffled, but ya know its true!!!!!:wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

cybershooter said:


> NBROOKS, you make some very valid points. It's good to finally get the point of view from a Pro shooter. We could split hairs forever about who's the better archers be it pins or scope. Fact is that there is always a changing of the guard. Guys like you replaced the Ulmers of days gone by and someday you too will be replaced. It's just the natural order of things.
> I guess my question to you is...How do you explain that a pro fixed pins class will hurt 3-D archery? From a manufacturers stand point, wouldn't it be beneficial to have world class archers winning a pro class shooting equipment that bowhunters are likely to buy and hunt with? Bowhunters do make up an estimated 95% of the archery market.
> Once again, thanks for your input. I don't agree with much of what you say here but I now have a great respect for you.


I think what Nathan means is something that I have also been thinking for a long time.....there is to much division in archery. There doesn't need to be 50 pro classes. If you like shooting pins then shoot pins in the Open division....that is a shoot what you bring class. If you really want to be the best then this is the class to shoot in to find out if you are the best...

OR do you just want to be the best pin shooter?


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

ibochamp said:


> I hear ya Brian, same for me, just sounds to me that some folks are worried that this class would turn out to be better than they think, and as for easier to shoot???? pins??? if thats so then why the heck aint they all shootin them cause if its all about the bucks then I would be shootin the easiest to shoot, wouldn't you???? :wink:


Yes pins are easier to shoot for 3-D and not necessarily because of magnification but rather the inherent ranging capability of multiple points of reference. 

As for us shooting pins because they are easier, there are only two pro classes (freestyle and freestyle limited) recognized by the national organizations and major archery companies. Why would we as pros shoot a non recognized class where there is no contingency and no real hope of any in the near future. 

I started with the attitude of “what the heck, let 'em have a pro class” but after several weeks of reflection I now agree with Nathan; another pro style will only dilute the game further. And the last thing we need is more division in archery. If you want to shoot as a pro, then compete with whatever equipment you desire and feel will make you competitive. It is called FREESTYLE for a reason. The best archer of the day and time wins, and that's what being a pro is about. 

If you want to be the best pin shooter in the world, I applaud that goal and if you want and feel competitive with pins come join us in Pro Freestyle or Pro Freestyle Limited.


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## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> I think what Nathan means is something that I have also been thinking for a long time.....there is to much division in archery. There doesn't need to be 50 pro classes. If you like shooting pins then shoot pins in the Open division....that is a shoot what you bring class. If you really want to be the best then this is the class to shoot in to find out if you are the best...
> 
> OR do you just want to be the best pin shooter?


You are right... that is what I mean by division in archery... 

For instance, I stayed at a Hotel in KY at the last ASA event and I had to go back by the Hotel on my way out from the tournament site on Sunday afternoon to get a receipt... the lady at the front desk asked my how I did?... I replied by telling her I got 7th.. she said, "wow, that sounds good".. then she said she talked to the guy that got 2nd place.. well, I had just left the shootoff and they were all still there at the tournament... no way had Levi came by there and I know they didn't stay there to begin with... she was obvisiously talking about someone from a different division, but how was she supposed to know... she just heard 2nd place.. thats all she knew... and what is bad about that is when you have someone that wins his class in the World Championships (maybe something like the left-handed but right eye dominant division) and there is only 6-7 people in his division and he goes mome to the newspapers and tells them he is the new world champion... they come out to watch him and he can't really shoot that good and for that matter, the newspaper guy is a bowhunter and he knows that if he applied himself he could beat this guy hands down... you see... too many classes make archery difficult to actually follow who is the best.... 

You might say "well that has nothing to do with the pin class... we have plenty of shooters"... that is still not the point... the point is that you should have only one professional mens class, one professional womens class and one senior division... we should model archery after other sports.. golf has only one leader at the end of the day on the PGA tour... bullriding does not have multiple leaders at the end, everybody rides against each other, however they ride... left handed, right handed, big guy, little guy... I'm sure you get the idea by now.... 

You could make the argument that people race different kinds of cars, but the problem with that in comparision with archery is that is easy to determine the difference in car racing... everything looks different.... drag cars only go so far... NASCAR is obvisiously not like that... Indy Cars are very different looking... So you can see the definate distinction between the different types of racing... It is so simple my wife can follow it and she doesn't follow racing at all... 

The difference between pin shooting and scope shooting is not that easy to determine... Someone would really have to be informed to understand the difference.. and even then they might not understand why they should be seperated... 

You can easily see the difference in Olympic style shooting and compound shooting because they look so different... legitiment reason for different classes....

IBOChamp, didn't you shoot Open classes b4? I could be wrong, but it seems like I remember that... I know you shoot pins well, but, even all the guys that you shot against back in the day (Bobby Ketcher, Ted Cotton, Jackie Caudle, etc...) moved on to compete at a higher level for a number of reasons... more competition... to called the best... reasons of sanity:wink:.... and they all did well... Bobby Ketcher to be certain has won the World Championships in both MBR and the Open Pro division... in my opinion, he can be called one of the best.... of course, that is just my opinion... 

CyberShooter, I hope some of that helps explain why I think it would hurt 3d archery... because the multiple divisions hurts us.... look at anyother sport and you will see what I am talking about... and I do appreciate your views as well... we can talk about matters without being all knotted up at each other!!.... this is GREAT!! a real discussion.....

Later guys!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Everybody wants to be a winner. 

In reality, there should only be one, the one that shot the best that day.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Great post Nathan and it makes perfect sense also.....:thumbs_up

Atleast I know that I am not the only one that thinks there are WAY to many classes in archery.:wink:

The man sings a mean song, can shoot and makes a good point.:darkbeer:


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

I remember when I was shooting Field Archery growing up, it went by equipment. If you didn't win, it meant you needed to practice!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

jwshooter11 said:


> I remember when I was shooting Field Archery growing up, it went by equipment. If you didn't win, it meant you needed to practice!


Exactly.....:wink::thumbs_up


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

*Point Taken*



N BROOKS said:


> You are right... that is what I mean by division in archery...
> 
> For instance, I stayed at a Hotel in KY at the last ASA event and I had to go back by the Hotel on my way out from the tournament site on Sunday afternoon to get a receipt... the lady at the front desk asked my how I did?... I replied by telling her I got 7th.. she said, "wow, that sounds good".. then she said she talked to the guy that got 2nd place.. well, I had just left the shootoff and they were all still there at the tournament... no way had Levi came by there and I know they didn't stay there to begin with... she was obvisiously talking about someone from a different division, but how was she supposed to know... she just heard 2nd place.. thats all she knew... and what is bad about that is when you have someone that wins his class in the World Championships (maybe something like the left-handed but right eye dominant division) and there is only 6-7 people in his division and he goes mome to the newspapers and tells them he is the new world champion... they come out to watch him and he can't really shoot that good and for that matter, the newspaper guy is a bowhunter and he knows that if he applied himself he could beat this guy hands down... you see... too many classes make archery difficult to actually follow who is the best....
> 
> ...



OK so 1 more post.

I understand what you mean in this post..

My only Question is if we can not add another Pro class then can we merge the open pro division and pro Fingers to a Pins only class? :thumbs_up :tongue::wink:

Just kidding (mabey) 

Junkie


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## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

bowjunkie said:


> OK so 1 more post.
> 
> I understand what you mean in this post..
> 
> ...



Not a bad idea! I like it!!!


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

Yes I did shoot open back in1990 caused I read the rules for MBR wrong and thought I had to shoot that class, I finished 2cd to Randy Ulmer in the Triple crown that year. No one has answered my question yet??? If pins are so easy to shoot then why are the pros not all shootin them Bobby has one both classes but I dont think he shot pins in his Pro world win?? wonder why that is?????:mg: time to move on you guys have fun:wink:


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## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

ibochamp said:


> Yes I did shoot open back in1990 caused I read the rules for MBR wrong and thought I had to shoot that class, I finished 2cd to Randy Ulmer in the Triple crown that year. No one has answered my question yet??? If pins are so easy to shoot then why are the pros not all shootin them Bobby has one both classes but I dont think he shot pins in his Pro world win?? wonder why that is?????:mg: time to move on you guys have fun:wink:



I thought you had crossed that sacred line once b4 :mg:... I gotta say though, if you finished 2nd to Ulmer, why didn't you chase after him?.. I mean, when I was a youngster shooting in the Youth classes and trying to become the best archer, I always thought shooting with Ulmer would be the greatest challenge... I watched his form and learned his techniques... I wanted to beat the best, so I decided to shoot like the best... 

I guess that is where we differ, I want to beat the best in archery and I know that the best sign up the Open Pro class.. I am not doggin' on you or saying anything bad, I guess that is just where we differ in thinking... another great aspect of this sport... you can play where you want to play... some sandboxes are just bigger than others! :wink:

Now... let me address your question. As for "why don't the pros shoot pins?", well, uh... that is fairly obvisious... isn't it... it is the only way to very precise... and precision is what I am after... also, if you are using the logic of "it is not easier to shoot pins" you are correct... but why are you using that logic?.... that doesn't prove anything, other than with pins you have to gap shoot (or something like that)... if you are making a challenge of "pins are harder to shoot than a scope"... well then... shooting a recurve is harder than shooting pins:mg::secret:.... 

Bobby did not win the world in the Pro division with pins, but he did beat the best in world.... and that is why one pursues the quest... to beat the best... 

I'm out for now.....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Cousins, Hopkins, Gillingham, Griggs, Brooks, Baize, Wallace*



ibochamp said:


> Yes I did shoot open back in1990 caused I read the rules for MBR wrong and thought I had to shoot that class, I finished 2cd to Randy Ulmer in the Triple crown that year. No one has answered my question yet??? If pins are so easy to shoot then why are the pros not all shootin them Bobby has one both classes but I dont think he shot pins in his Pro world win?? wonder why that is?????:mg: time to move on you guys have fun:wink:


Would give you all the compition you would want shooting pins. Put up enough money and they will come shoot your pins class.:wink: Many would look down on them for shooting it much like Vegas, never understod that because its a money class and thats what pros do is shoot for money. There they best shooters in the world and yes they can shoot pins. No doubt about. Gillingham can shot any venue and has proven it time and time again.:wink: Would love to see it happen. Just one large tournament with nothing but pins. Bring all the pros and let all the top gun pin shooters match against the open pro shooters. Might be very interesting to see how well those pros shoot pins.
DB


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

Actually I do shoot a recurve from tie to time, its alot of fun!!!!:angel:


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## overseeR (May 5, 2005)

It's so much harder to gap judge with one pin . Lets face it...many of these guys have perfected a gaping technique and don't want to move away from it. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is doubtful that any manufacturer will pay contingency money to a pro pins class. The classes are SO watered down already it really makes no sense. 
Come on people....How many classes is too many? We can't all win. Making a class so that you can is more of a cop out than a victory. Step up and practice. If your skeered then say your skeered but don't try to manipulate the system so that you can win an archery tournament. If you want to be a pro...then shoot with the pros.


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## bowjunkie (Sep 9, 2002)

*Here is my point*



Daniel Boone said:


> Would give you all the compition you would want shooting pins. Put up enough money and they will come shoot your pins class.:wink: Many would look down on them for shooting it much like Vegas, never understod that because its a money class and thats what pros do is shoot for money. There they best shooters in the world and yes they can shoot pins. No doubt about. Gillingham can shot any venue and has proven it time and time again.:wink: Would love to see it happen. Just one large tournament with nothing but pins. Bring all the pros and let all the top gun pin shooters match against the open pro shooters. Might be very interesting to see how well those pros shoot pins.
> DB



You always say the Pro will kick our butts. Did you ever think WE COULD GET BETTER!!!  I mean really the pro shot in the amatures classes to begin with and worked up to the pro class. I am sure a few won their first year in the pro class but most paid their dues before winning alot. You look at it as we can not get any better and should accept that we are as good as we will ever get. People do get better and the pro ranks cycle through some are hot for a while then the lead changes. 

I really think you are being narrow minded on this one. Have you gotten better over the years with proper bow setups and traning? I think so. 

SO tell me am I as good as I will ever be or do I have the chance of getting better? That is the way you make it sound. JMO

Junkie


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Step up and get you some*



bowjunkie said:


> You always say the Pro will kick our butts. Did you ever think WE COULD GET BETTER!!!  I mean really the pro shot in the amatures classes to begin with and worked up to the pro class. I am sure a few won their first year in the pro class but most paid their dues before winning alot. You look at it as we can not get any better and should accept that we are as good as we will ever get. People do get better and the pro ranks cycle through some are hot for a while then the lead changes.
> 
> I really think you are being narrow minded on this one. Have you gotten better over the years with proper bow setups and traning? I think so.
> 
> ...


You keep saying your as good or can be as good. Go shoot and win the big bucks. I never said you couldnt shoot with them or anyone else. Im telling it like it is and being 100% honest, my opionion from watching this sport for years. You know damn well how good those pros shoot:wink: Im not telling you anything you dont know. Its tough compititon on that level and takes dedication. If your good enough or can be then jump up like some have said and get all you want. Are you willing to do what it takes? I know how good these guys are. Yes on any given day any pro can lose and anyone of them will tell you that and never saw one say anything different.
As far as narrow minded that not the case. Im telling you my opionion and Im sure the opionion of many pros. You pin shooters get the tournament set up and go get the sponsors. Lets see how you match up with them. Nathan Brooks didnt just become a pro. He been shooting from a young age and grew into this pro division. Its lots of time and dedication (sacrifice) and you best have some talent and skill. For most the top guns its a 24/7 job and believe me they do practice often.:wink: Dan McArthey moved to those ranks pretty darn quick, it can happen. GO FOR IT!
DB

PS

Bryan I wouldnt tell anyone they cant win. I will say you best be ready to compete against the best of the best. Im turning 50 next year and giving it a thought. Tough dissision to make for all the reasons. Do I want to dedicate the time and money to compete with guys in Senior pro class. Will I enjoy archery shooting Pro and making it a job because it would be ajob practicing as much as it takes to be compititve. Can I compete on that level? Many questions to ask before jumping and making that leap. Its easy to say I can compete on the pro level. Asking yourself if your willing to do what it takes is a different story. Believe me I talked with enough pros to understand the commititment. I like the sport right now and truly hate losing. Shooting pro you best understand it going to happen, that I know for myself as well Bryan. So realize Im asking myself all these same questions this year.
DB


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

DB, tell us again how long you've been shooting competitive 3D archery?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Why do you ask?*



jonnybow said:


> DB, tell us again how long you've been shooting competitive 3D archery?


Been around long enough to know the pros shoot good. Been around long enough to know Burly Hall and Jackie Caudle and George Dixon were the top pros at the time. Give you any idea. 
:wink:

Just so you know. I have shot bows for most my life. Was a competitor weightlifter for many years ( partime archer). Been shooting fulltime( meaning shooting indoor, 3d and some field events year round) now for three years. Currently shooting Open A class in ASA with scope. Knew Brooks when he was 13 or 14 shooting.
Knew he had what it took then.
DB

DB


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

I know all about your life, been on here from the beginning, just thought some others might want to know. Now they do....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Just a few points*



jonnybow said:


> I know all about your life, been on here from the beginning, just thought some others might want to know. Now they do....


My shooting partner is doing quite well in ASA semi pro class. He been shooting three years this year included. Im not saying one cannot reach the pro class. Im saying reaching that class and shooting against them guys is tough as it gets and yes most pros can shoot very well in most venues. Im friends with Bryan and respect Bowjunkie and know his shooting ability. Im not saying he cant win. Im saying the top pros would and will come shoot a pin class and do well and give the pin shooters all they want. Thats not saying Bryan or others cant compete on the pro level. Many of us here strive to shoot like the pros. Amatuer and pro are far apart in skill level, that my personal opionion from watching pros like Randy Ulmer, Dean Pridgen, Jeff Hopkins and so many others that win consistantly and make a fine living shooting archery.
Im one that dont think its a bad idea. It works in NFAA, it could work in other assc. Main promblem is lack of guys willing to tow the line with the top guns. Not enough pros in 3d right now. Like I said get the pin manufactuers to get together and put up the sponsor money and lets find out.
DB


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## buckcreek (Jun 1, 2005)

It is my belief that the major manufacturers would be absolutely idiotic NOT to support something like this. Look at the numbers. Hunters are the ONLY avenue to grow competition archery. Yes, you can pick up shooters that will only shoot and not hunt but I am talking vast majority. Danny McCarthy could sell a lot more Vectrix's for Hoyt than Pro-Elite's. Same thing for Hopkins, Gillingham, etc...I have a bow shop. If we sell 200 bows in a year, 195 of them are camo hunting bows. We want them shooting year round and most of these guys are not going to go out and but a completely different set-up for some weekend local 3D tourney.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Totally agree*



buckcreek said:


> It is my belief that the major manufacturers would be absolutely idiotic NOT to support something like this. Look at the numbers. Hunters are the ONLY avenue to grow competition archery. Yes, you can pick up shooters that will only shoot and not hunt but I am talking vast majority. Danny McCarthy could sell a lot more Vectrix's for Hoyt than Pro-Elite's. Same thing for Hopkins, Gillingham, etc...I have a bow shop. If we sell 200 bows in a year, 195 of them are camo hunting bows. We want them shooting year round and most of these guys are not going to go out and but a completely different set-up for some weekend local 3D tourney.



Last year one of are ranges had a shoot were you could shoot pins only with a good money payback. It was very popular. I totally agree it only makes good sense.
DB


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

buckcreek said:


> It is my belief that the major manufacturers would be absolutely idiotic NOT to support something like this. Look at the numbers. Hunters are the ONLY avenue to grow competition archery. Yes, you can pick up shooters that will only shoot and not hunt but I am talking vast majority. Danny McCarthy could sell a lot more Vectrix's for Hoyt than Pro-Elite's. Same thing for Hopkins, Gillingham, etc...I have a bow shop. If we sell 200 bows in a year, 195 of them are camo hunting bows. We want them shooting year round and most of these guys are not going to go out and but a completely different set-up for some weekend local 3D tourney.


You are kidding yourself if you think McCarthy or any other pro that would choose to shoot pins would be shooting a "hunting bow". When X Cutter shot pins at Vegas he wasn't shooting a Drenalin or an XT. Heck he and Jeff can't even get a "hunting bow" to fit them. They will all more then likely still be shooting target colored bows. The color of the bow has nothing to do with which clas you shoot in. I know guys that shoot HC with target colored bows....same thing goes for indoors and field in the BHFS class.

But you are missing the point.....like Nathan said there already is a PRO division for them to shoot in. It is called OPEN....or Freestyle in NFAA....you can shoot what you bring. If you want to shoot pins then shoot them......


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

People are forgetting (cliche term name) Joe Hunter, He/She really doesn't care about competing in archery. They pick up their bow for archery season and then when its over, move onto gun. 

With that being said, I do feel that there should be some changes to the hunter class and unlimited classes. 

Melt hunter and bow novice togeather 35yrs max.
or do away with magnification for hunter


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## buckcreek (Jun 1, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> You are kidding yourself if you think McCarthy or any other pro that would choose to shoot pins would be shooting a "hunting bow". When X Cutter shot pins at Vegas he wasn't shooting a Drenalin or an XT. Heck he and Jeff can't even get a "hunting bow" to fit them. They will all more then likely still be shooting target colored bows. The color of the bow has nothing to do with which clas you shoot in. I know guys that shoot HC with target colored bows....same thing goes for indoors and field in the BHFS class.
> 
> But you are missing the point.....like Nathan said there already is a PRO division for them to shoot in. It is called OPEN....or Freestyle in NFAA....you can shoot what you bring. If you want to shoot pins then shoot them......



Maybe I didn't do a good enough job in saying what I was trying to. I think the manufacturers are missing the boat. I do not think they are maximizing their bang for their buck in what they put into tournament archery. If you made an "archery" pie there would be x number of slices representing the various aspects of archery. Hunters would be the largest slice without question and without a rival. Now, if I am marketing director for Bow Company XY and I am currently spending so many dollars in target archery and have been given the duty of growing our share here is what I would do (condensed version). I would look at that "archery pie" and see that the best slice to get some of would be the hunter. Yes, you could pick up some from the casual shooter group and even some first time archers, but the hunters is where the growth will come from. Bowtech is currently doing this. If Hoyt or Mathews would just jump on this thought process the number of people they could put into the other slices is exponential. I don't care what bow company and I don't care what the set-up is, the guys winning now would be the same guys winning with a hunting rig. Period.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Im just asking*



buckcreek said:


> Maybe I didn't do a good enough job in saying what I was trying to. I think the manufacturers are missing the boat. I do not think they are maximizing their bang for their buck in what they put into tournament archery. If you made an "archery" pie there would be x number of slices representing the various aspects of archery. Hunters would be the largest slice without question and without a rival. Now, if I am marketing director for Bow Company XY and I am currently spending so many dollars in target archery and have been given the duty of growing our share here is what I would do (condensed version). I would look at that "archery pie" and see that the best slice to get some of would be the hunter. Yes, you could pick up some from the casual shooter group and even some first time archers, but the hunters is where the growth will come from. Bowtech is currently doing this. If Hoyt or Mathews would just jump on this thought process the number of people they could put into the other slices is exponential. I don't care what bow company and I don't care what the set-up is, the guys winning now would be the same guys winning with a hunting rig. Period.


What makes you think those hunters that arent shooting tournament archery now would be more likely to come shoot against tournament shooters? Im not sure they would. I do think you could draw anyone if you had the sponsor money, to me thats the key to drawing the pin shooters. Awards and prizes is what draws shooters to tournaments.
DB


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## cybershooter (Oct 16, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> What makes you think those hunters that arent shooting tournament archery now would be more likely to come shoot against tournament shooters? Im not sure they would. I do think you could draw anyone if you had the sponsor money, to me thats the key to drawing the pin shooters. Awards and prizes is what draws shooters to tournaments.
> DB


I think we see this matter the same way just at a different angle. Maybe the point here is that too much emphasis is being placed on the smallest piece of the pie. Perhaps manufactiurers should gear their sponsorship more to the majority of shooters. 
At last years ASA Classic you had 1027 shooters. 90% of which are amatuer shooters. I don't have the numbers but wouldn't ya think that a vast majority of that 90% are bowhunters? Who keeps the Archery companies going? Bowhunters! So, where is the division in archery? Maybe it's all easy as pie to see.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Where is this not happening*



cybershooter said:


> I think we see this matter the same way just at a different angle. Maybe the point here is that too much emphasis is being placed on the smallest piece of the pie. Perhaps manufactiurers should gear their sponsorship more to the majority of shooters.
> At last years ASA Classic you had 1027 shooters. 90% of which are amatuer shooters. I don't have the numbers but wouldn't ya think that a vast majority of that 90% are bowhunters? Who keeps the Archery companies going? Bowhunters! So, where is the division in archery? Maybe it's all easy as pie to see.



Its a compition. Pros division is the best of the best. Where are assc not helping the amatuers? They have there classes. Pros are hunters as well.
We have so many classes now more than ever. Nathan made a good point in pro division we dont have enough pros now shooting because many dont want to compete and pay that high entry fee. What needs to happen is more sponsorship on the manufactuers behalf. :wink: There the one benefitting by all of us shooting. Not sure what your suggesting?
DB


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## ibochamp (Apr 22, 2004)

bowjunkie said:


> You always say the Pro will kick our butts. Did you ever think WE COULD GET BETTER!!!  I mean really the pro shot in the amatures classes to begin with and worked up to the pro class. I am sure a few won their first year in the pro class but most paid their dues before winning alot. You look at it as we can not get any better and should accept that we are as good as we will ever get. People do get better and the pro ranks cycle through some are hot for a while then the lead changes.
> 
> I really think you are being narrow minded on this one. Have you gotten better over the years with proper bow setups and traning? I think so.
> 
> ...


 Bryan I think he's just tryin to scare the guys who think they want this class into thinkin that there is no use for this class cause all the "big guns" of OPEN pro class would cross over and take it away, and as for "STEP UP AND GET YOU SOME" and fine living I aint seen any of them on THE LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS, LMAO archery is a game too me and I bet I make more money with my career than the winning archers, so if there ever is a pro hunter or pins or what ever its called, I'll be your HUCKLE BERRY!:tongue: if I decide too start shooting again!! cuase when it comes too shootin head to head with PINS I'll guarentee you I aint Skeered just ask anyone that knows me very well, MR.DB See you guys in Erie!!!!


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## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

Cybershooter - Buckcreek make a good point... I believe that their theory is capable of pushing sales in the area of hunting bows... there is just too many problems to overcome here... 

Kinda like having NASCAR with only stock cars... not allowing the munipulation factor... basically creating a common denominator amongst every archer... very good point... kinda like the NASP program... everyone shoots a Genesis bow with the same equipment... best shooter wins.... 

But back to the topic at hand, there would be way too many hurdles to jump to ever get it to that point... the only way would be starting a new organization... 

Back to the idea of pushing more sales, Cybershooter/Buckcreek, your theory may work, but, I managed an archery shop for 6 years... very seldom did anyone mention what specific bow model someone won a championship with, just usually "what brand?"... from that aspect of it, Mathews has been kicking everyones tail since the beginning of the solo cam (or at least that is what their advertising would have you believe:wink.... maybe they do win a lot of tournaments, but they are the best at advertising their wins... and that has created a lot of sales... period..

I believe what Bowtech is doing is just another way of getting to point B from point A... desired same results, just a different pathway to get there... I would venture to say that BowTech hasn't taken Mathews over in sales yet, but they are doing a very good job of marketing.... anyone can see that...

I think the question of "Would a Pro Pins class be a good idea" and "who would win?" is kinda like asking "How many licks does it take to get to the center Tootsie Roll in a Tootsie Pop?"... the world may never know!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Im all for it*



ibochamp said:


> Bryan I think he's just tryin to scare the guys who think they want this class into thinkin that there is no use for this class cause all the "big guns" of OPEN pro class would cross over and take it away, and as for "STEP UP AND GET YOU SOME" and fine living I aint seen any of them on THE LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS, LMAO archery is a game too me and I bet I make more money with my career than the winning archers, so if there ever is a pro hunter or pins or what ever its called, I'll be your HUCKLE BERRY!:tongue: if I decide too start shooting again!! cuase when it comes too shootin head to head with PINS I'll guarentee you I aint Skeered just ask anyone that knows me very well, MR.DB See you guys in Erie!!!!



Heck Ill lay a few dollars on the side bets. Now my buddy Nathan would shoot a pretty good pin sight. But Im quessing that Gillingham this might be right up his sleeve. Hmmm, Im quessing there a few making a pretty good living. Mr. Hopkins sure isnt hurting. Lets get a ten thousand dollar tournament going and see if these pros wont show up and shoot pins. Heck pros are easy, just put the money up and set the rules. They will come shoot.:tongue: Heck Nathan shoots Willy Dillys( Bigtime archery at its best) for nothing but bragging rights and often doesnt win:tongue: Anyone can win on any given day in archery. IBO CHamp those pros would be the first to congradulate you on any victory. 
DB
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Just think about guys*

Bowjunkie and IBO Champ. Then I could call you guys pros and everyone could bash you.:tongue: You know I promote the pros and call them the best and catch alot of slack for it.

Then you guys would be in that catorgory:beer: Be carfull what you ask for. Its brutal on that level. Nathan get no love when the shooting starts.

I remember Nathans world championship in Oklahoma City being in a six point lead the first day. Hopkins said on the second day just beofre the shooting started. I like the guy but Im here to beat his butt and he did:tongue: Love stops when the arrows start shooting in the pro ranks.

It seems some here have taken offense to me saying the pros are that good. Pro pins class than you guys would be a pro.:tongue:
DB


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## bowtech_babe (Jun 7, 2002)

ibochamp said:


> Bryan I think he's just tryin to scare the guys who think they want this class into thinkin that there is no use for this class cause all the "big guns" of OPEN pro class would cross over and take it away, and as for "STEP UP AND GET YOU SOME" and fine living I aint seen any of them on THE LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS, LMAO archery is a game too me and I bet I make more money with my career than the winning archers, so if there ever is a pro hunter or pins or what ever its called, I'll be your HUCKLE BERRY!:tongue: if I decide too start shooting again!! cuase when it comes too shootin head to head with PINS I'll guarentee you I aint Skeered just ask anyone that knows me very well, MR.DB See you guys in Erie!!!!


I see this subject how you and Brian see this....I would find it interesting to have you guys in with the "big guns"....I've seen both of you on fire and would be something to see you tough pins guys shooting pro pins class. Not only that but prove that shooting pins has its own level of difficulty.

If Brian applied himself at pro level I believe he could hang tough as well as you.

DB- Pros are those who are shooting against the best of the best. Brian won't say it but he has held the title of "Best of the Best" 2001 and yes he had to shootoff against a pro. This past year TWO amateurs <---pins shooters<----- were the finalist in the Best of the Best Title 2006. Which proves another point that anyone(Pro or Amateur) can be beaten on any given day with any style equipment. 

Samantha


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Sam*



bowtech_babe said:


> I see this subject how you and Brian see this....I would find it interesting to have you guys in with the "big guns"....I've seen both of you on fire and would be something to see you tough pins guys shooting pro pins class. Not only that but prove that shooting pins has its own level of difficulty.
> 
> If Brian applied himself at pro level I believe he could hang tough as well as you.
> 
> ...


Big difference when there ten thousand dollars on the line. Bryan is diffiantly a good shooter and who knows it would be great to see this happen. Im sure you would be able to find something to spend that big money on:tongue: Whenever there money on the line the compititon gets a little tougher always.
How much did the best of best pay to win? Money brings the top guns to play. 
DB


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## buckcreek (Jun 1, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> What makes you think those hunters that arent shooting tournament archery now would be more likely to come shoot against tournament shooters? Im not sure they would. I do think you could draw anyone if you had the sponsor money, to me thats the key to drawing the pin shooters. Awards and prizes is what draws shooters to tournaments.
> DB


The only reason I think those not shooting tournaments now would be more likely to come out in the future is that growth HAS to come from somewhere. If you are not growing, you are dying. What do you have to do to grow? You have to get more shooters in tournament archery. Hunters is the obvious pool to get them from. So, IN MY OPINION, the manufacturers and the archery associations are missing the boat in who they are focussing their efforts on the national level. Also, we have to do our part to get our buddied out there and shooting. If ASA could just draw one new person per year from each county in Georgia, that would be about 150 new shooters. Alabama would soar those numbers around 225...And so on and so on. Now, no one likes to lose but what you never hear anyone say, people refuse to participate if they feel like they don't even have a chance. Average bowhunter can't relate his equipment to what he sees at the 3D range and the inerest just never catches fire. Thing is, I don't care if there is a Pro pins class or not but Bowhunter should not be a dead-end class with a bowhunting rig. Get rid of the long stabilizers and make Unlimited into Advanced Hunter or something like that.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Asa*



buckcreek said:


> The only reason I think those not shooting tournaments now would be more likely to come out in the future is that growth HAS to come from somewhere. If you are not growing, you are dying. What do you have to do to grow? You have to get more shooters in tournament archery. Hunters is the obvious pool to get them from. So, IN MY OPINION, the manufacturers and the archery associations are missing the boat in who they are focussing their efforts on the national level. Also, we have to do our part to get our buddied out there and shooting. If ASA could just draw one new person per year from each county in Georgia, that would be about 150 new shooters. Alabama would soar those numbers around 225...And so on and so on. Now, no one likes to lose but what you never hear anyone say, people refuse to participate if they feel like they don't even have a chance. Average bowhunter can't relate his equipment to what he sees at the 3D range and the inerest just never catches fire. Thing is, I don't care if there is a Pro pins class or not but Bowhunter should not be a dead-end class with a bowhunting rig. Get rid of the long stabilizers and make Unlimited into Advanced Hunter or something like that.


Constantly make changes. There diffiantly trying and making changes. Some good and some bad in my opionion. There trying marked yardage. Hard to please everone. That fact is no hunter is going to step into 3d and win right off from the start. Sport is tough and the compition is good. Hunters have plenty of classes. Fact is many hunters wont and dont want to do what it takes to win. Hard to make a class to please everyone. Unlimited and some of the smaller classes should be looked at for consideration. Hunters have novice and advanced. Sometimes you have to play the game for awhile and not everyone can win
DB


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

brooks i like the way you think well yes


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## cybershooter (Oct 16, 2005)

*agree to disagree...*

Well guys & gals,
The original question was "Would a Pro-pins class be a good idea?"
Thanks for all the input. Gotta love an open forum. Seems that the answer to the question is *NO ONE REALLY KNOWS*. 
Thanks to Nathan Brooks for being the stand up guy that he is and voicing his opinion on a subject that not many Pro shooters would. 
In this forum as in the forum on ASA's site the topic evolved into "What can we do to grow the sport of 3-D?" No-one wants to see our favorite summertime sport fade away and we as competitive shooters need to put our collective minds together and challenge ourselves, the associations and manufacturers to do whatever it takes to bring in more archers and keep the ones that we currently have. 

DB, I never said that the assoc. aren't helping the amatuers. I suggested that perhaps more manufacturers could follow Bowtech's lead. 
Regarding the many different classes; you are right, you can't please everyone. I don't know the winning combination to satisfying all archers but it sure is fun reading everyone elses ideas.

Thanks again everybody.
Mark Lea :fencing:


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

*woooooo hooooooooo*

nope it not going to happen if it has not happen yet


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