# Article on Cushion Plunger Tuning



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Please do. Especially if it is mostly in regards to shooting barebow. There is much written for freestyle, not much for aiming disciplines that reference the arrow. It sometimes seems difficult to get a good tune that is forgiving while also hitting inline with the arrow point at all distances. In my experience anyway.

-Grant


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## AngelRa (Nov 15, 2010)

I am very interested.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I too would love to read it. Thanks.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bebe, the rest of the article would be interesting, maybe save you some time to pdf it instead of typing out. On the second function, while that may be true that it can absorb some variance in release, I think the ultimate function has come to be known more in that for any given tune of arrow flight, there is no straight path for an oscillating shaft over all distances. The forces acting on each end of the shaft are not the same and finding a tune that allows the independent forces to cancel on even trade is all but impossible. By having adjustable tension against the initial bend in the cycle, an archer can adjust for, or "split the difference", across the entire range of his shooting needs. For short distance only, that could easily by a tension that only needs to give to a poor release.


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## c-lo (Jan 8, 2012)

Please do.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Please post the remainder of the article. We can probably all learn some new tidbit that will be helpful.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

There is this one on the web:

http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/Tune/tata.htm


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I would love to read that article.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

Cool, I'll see if I can send it through a scanner, is that how I make a pdf file? I could take a picture of the pages but I'm not sure if that will work. Any helpful advice is welcome.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bebe said:


> Cool, I'll see if I can send it through a scanner, is that how I make a pdf file? I could take a picture of the pages but I'm not sure if that will work. Any helpful advice is welcome.


 Yes, you can run through a scanner or many copy machines like at Kinkos now will just scan and email to you as a pdf.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

:thumbs_up look forward to it...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm real interested...i used them for years back in the mid 80's (aka "Berger Button" back then)...without really knowing much other than i could adjust/tune for centershot with one but to this day?..i still don't get "the spring part" of it...as i understand paradox is the act of the shaft moving upwards and away from the bow..which aludes to me that the sping tension part of it is BS...as even back then i usta just put the heaviest spring in with just a touch of preload Just enough to keep the button secured to the body-stop and adjust exclusively with the in-out feature...and when i realized what i was doing (basically defeating the spring mechanism by locking it outward with the heavy spring)..i said screw berger buttons and just shot a cavalier superflight...with great success..but i was once again blessed with one...a shibuya that member Old Sarge sent along (out of the kindness of his heart) when i bought my excel from him...and this time i tried to be scientific about it choosing the medium weight spring...again with just a touch of preload..but..my most basic knowledge tells me the spring feature is a hoax as how could it affect anything when from the moment of release the arrow shaft moves away from it...not towards it..by the laws of paradox...but as usual?...i'm sure my thinking is flawed...however?...i still don't see or understand how! :laugh:

so...please...by all means...enlighten me.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

Okay I haven't scanned it yet I took a picture of the pages and we will see how it transposes. Let me know if it is readable and we will go from there. It might take some work to read it but it's worth it. I cannot wait to try this method out on my recurve.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

2 more pages after this post.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

This is a poor man's way of scanning, taking pictures with my camera. Looks like they are readable if you don't get motion sickness. Next time I'll try ironing the pages to get the folds out. Hope this interests you as much as it does me! I'm going to have to thank that old timer next time I see him at the range. I don't think this is anything ground breaking but it is a method to tuning and it also makes the point of not over extending the expectations of what a cushion plunger should be doing for your bow.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

good stuff - thanks 

Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wow..this is amazing...i think i actually got something right...and i heard of this "Tone Method" decades ago..and it didn't make sense to me then as it doesn't make sense to me now..cause if i read it right?..

1. Ya put a hard object in the body in place of the spring to remove the spring feature then?..

2. Ya tune your bow,,,,then?..

3. Ya detune your bow (by moving it left) then?...

4. Ya put a spring in to compenstate for detuning your bow in step #3.

so..i guess i still don't get it...sounds to me like the entire spring feature is there to compensate for what was from the very begining?...ill-spined/tuned arrows..then sold under the guise of "a more forgiving set-up"...or maybe?..just a set-up that will allow you to tune mis-spined/tuned arrows?..or?...maybe super tune arrows beyond what length and point weight are capable of?..but then i gotta remember we have some talented shots here who are getting bullet holes through paper "Off The Shelf" so?..i dunno..guess i'm still lost but thanks very much for taking the effort to post that Bebe...i truely do appreciate it...brought back fond memories.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents - 

Just curious (and certainly no disrespect to Bebe). but information on plunger tuning is in no short supply. It's on the net, in books and with most coaches. All this post proves is than it's nothing new, and that there might be more than one way to skin a cat.

Viper1 out.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

JINKSTER said:


> so..i guess i still don't get it...sounds to me like the entire spring feature is there to compensate for what was from the very begining?...ill-spined/tuned arrows..then sold under te guise of "a more forgiving set-up"...or just a set-up that will allow you to tune mis-spined/tuned arrows?..i dunno..guess i'm still lost but thanks very much for taking the effort to post that Bebe...i truely do appreciate it...brought back fond memories.


J, reading your post reminded me of something I read some time ago and then again more recently:

The four stages of learning

Unconscious incompetence

The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognise their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage. The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.

Conscious incompetence

Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.

Conscious competence

The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.

Unconscious competence

The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.




Just joshing with you. Seriously though it is tuning and getting very close to proper spine and offset from centershot. I see the spring as allowing the arrow to come back into center of the spot, and then the spring absorbs some of the form flaws. I see your point and I am empathetic because I am interested in demystifying the cushion plunger. There was a post above that was from the texas forum by Rick Stonebreaker perhaps that will make more sense to you?

Cheers and remember to enjoy the shot!


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Just curious (and certainly no disrespect to Bebe). but information on plunger tuning is in no short supply. It's on the net, in books and with most coaches. All this post proves is than it's nothing new, and that there might be more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Viper thanks for stating the obvious and certainly no disrespect taken. Like I said I was just out at the range shooting and a kind soul shared this with me. Dick Tone has a long and esteemed history in archery. I am sure you are aware of his company Calvalier Archery and his fine rests and cushion plungers. I met Dick within the context of a young archer (me) seeking some guidance and coaching. I think this article was a neat blast from the past. It certainly is not the be all do all. But it may help some folks along the way. I wonder if Dick still promotes this method or if he has modified it at all.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Bebe said:


> J, reading your post reminded me of something I read some time ago and then again more recently:
> 
> The four stages of learning
> 
> ...


NP on the "joshing" Bebe..like i said...i appreciate you taking the effort to post it for us...and as far as the 4 stages of learning?.....i could fall into any one of'em on a vast number of archery related topics or skillsets on any given day..cause i would never be so bold as to claim or infer i know it all when it comes to archery..which is most likely why i find it so intriguing...but if i did know it all?..i'd probably write a book! :laugh:


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Gents -
> 
> Just curious (and certainly no disrespect to Bebe). but information on plunger tuning is in no short supply. It's on the net, in books and with most coaches. All this post proves is than it's nothing new, and that there might be more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> Viper1 out.




For example, you might check out the link I posted above .....


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for posting Bebe. As Viper said this is similar to a lot of other methods I've seen over the years. For the most part they all seem to work but the path to get to the end result is often a little different from one to the other. As I understand it you always stiffen the plunger to find the correct center shot/spine. Then use the spring to fine tune up to your ability. It is great for bareshafting.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Thanks for taking the time to post the article. It's much appreciated.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

You are certainly welcome guys, thought I should post some useful info rather than sniping all the time. I've been shooting longbow for so long that I've become more removed from working with a cushion plunger. I've been dinking around with shooting a recurve lately looking forward to shooting some with Gary, itbeso, and Alan. Man, I love archery!


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I didn't know you even owned a recurve can't hardly wait 54 more days of holding and aiming
Gary


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bebe, It never seems to fail that when someone on this forum makes an effort to post good info, certain posters are lurking to try to spoil the moment. That was a great post and I've known Dick for about 35 years, but I had forgotten all about that article by him. Keep up the good work and keep posting. It's a shame when people who really don't seem to have a clue about anything try to minalmalize efforts such as this last post by you


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## Dsturgisjr (Aug 20, 2004)

Bebe, I always listen to anything Dick Tone has to write or say. Thanks for sharing this article. I've been enjoying Mr. Tone's hunting articles in recent issues of Bow&Arrow Hunting magazine also. He is one of the best for sure.

Thanks also for your contribution to the B&A Stickbows column too. It came out great and should be in the Dec issue.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Jinxter.....I always figured that the distance that the Plunger head is set in/out of the sight window sets the Centershot...The Plunger head moving in/out under spring tension gives the ''Cushion" that helps forgive the affects of a bad release....I've just finished tuning my recurve,(last night at the Bow Shoppe)... basically the same way as this article suggests, I use "Tuning for Tens", by R.Stonebreaker, (as was recommended to me by Rod Jenkins) and it is a quick, and extremely valid tuning method...When I finished with the Plunger business, I went back and paper tuned/double checked my arrows and I made two small adjustments to my nock point height, and finished with some short length Walk-Back checks..from 10 yards, back to 30 yards....This should be adequate for local 3-D shooting.....Now if I can just have the discipline to leave it alone and NOT mess with it!!....L.O.L.........BEBE, thanks for the info, very much appreciate it....Take care!......Jim


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Harperman said:


> Now if I can just have the discipline to leave it alone and NOT mess with it!!


And that is so very very hard - LOL

Matt


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've seen some good highspeed film of plungers. They move about 2-3mm during a good shot, poor I'm betting they bottom-out.

There is an AMAZING thread on plunger tuning over on TT. Way past the level that I commit to, but awesome to see the precision some people put in.

For me it all comes back to the walkback tune. I want that arrow to impact inline with the point at all distances, rules out one variable for me. Usually I find that results in a slightly weak tune for me. My reasoning is that when I tune on the perfect flat range I'm shooting with as weak a tune as I'm likely to get. As I shoot at up/down angles and with compromised form I'm not stuck with an excessively stiff tune.

Also I find skinny arrows much easier to tune without adding a bunch of point weight, I've gone to skinnies for every outdoor shoot including 3D.

-Grant


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Matt_Potter said:


> And that is so very very hard - LOL
> 
> Matt


Matt.....yeah, in particular when the Plunger is a Spigarelli Spiga-Click!....it's so easy to just turn that little screw loose, and make a few ''Clicks" either way when an arrow goes somewhere besides where I wanted it to be...........Jim


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Harperman said:


> Matt.....yeah, in particular when the Plunger is a Spigarelli Spiga-Click!....it's so easy to just turn that little screw loose, and make a few ''Clicks" either way when an arrow goes somewhere besides where I wanted it to be...........Jim


Yep and then you start chasing your arrow around the face and all of a sudden you realize you have taken a tuned bow out of tune and you have to start from scratch with bareshafts all over again - you would think after doing that once you would never do it again - not so much - LOL


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

Matt, 

Thanks for that comment. I though I was the only archery dummy that went through that process regularly.

Mark


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Matt,

I take the Ron Popeil approach to plunger tuning: set it and forget it.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Matt_Potter said:


> Yep and then you start chasing your arrow around the face and all of a sudden you realize you have taken a tuned bow out of tune and you have to start from scratch with bareshafts all over again - you would think after doing that once you would never do it again - not so much - LOL


Matt, Ya just gotta count the "Clicks"....Mine is now at 25 counter-clockwise clicks .................Jim


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Matt, Jim -

I've never "chased" the arrows with plunger settings and never needed clicks on a plunger. This is kinda like tuning 101. If you make a change (plunger position or spring tension) and don't get the expected results, something is over-ridding those changes. Most common reason is a guy trying to tune beyond his level of shooting.

ONE basic procedure for new guys:

Set the plunger so medium tension and the arrows show the standard offset from center shot (arrow tip just to the left of the string for a righty).

Begin bare shaft tuning.

Adjust spring tension and/or limb bolt position (ILF risers) to tune. That will give you the most bang for the buck, you can also play with the degree of center shot. The priority is a matter of personal preference.

If the arrows won't tune, you either have the wrong arrows or your from isn't ready yet. If that's the case, and you persist, you're just wasting your time. 

There are other ways of doing this, including the "stiff" or "locked" plunger method, and they all work. 

Final plunger tuning requires walk-back tuning (several methods there too), but you really do need to be shooting at a fairly high level to make that a valid test.

Viper1 out.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Viper - not a new guy and I am string-walking so I can't really set it and forget as I am changing it all the time for different crawls (string-walking 101) and yes at this point I write my tune down once I have it.

Matt


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Yep and then you start chasing your arrow around the face and all of a sudden you realize you have taken a tuned bow out of tune and you have to start from scratch with bareshafts all over again - you would think after doing that once you would never do it again - not so much - LOL


I hear ya Matt...BTDT and got many T-shirts with the plunger scene...it's ll coming back to me now and in hindsight?..while some of the scientific minded folks seemed to swear the plungers added a level of forgiveness?..i usta just swear at'em! LOL!...especially in my compound days...as while any issue cropped up?..which could be cable/timing related or string stretch related or eeven form releated?..my mind always migrated towards..."it that darn plunger"...and out came the allen wrenchs...and after banging my head for years with'em?..wether it be weaking springs or wear on the tips with the advent of highly abrasive CF shafts?..they found a spot off my bows and in the bottom of my tacklebox..as i wound up heavily prefering the simplistist and inexpensive cavalier superflight rests..and just for show & tell?..here's a few from yesteryear that set me back...that plunger was like a $100 plunger back when...and it was so because it had a hardened steel micro-ball tip that spun..until my new ACC shafts wore flat spots on it..the one in the middle was yet another $100 rest...it's a auto-flipdown "Inertia Rest" from timeless archery..(boy did i tear my hair out with that one! LOL!) and finally?...that one on the far right there?...i don't know who made it but it was the best by far fingers/compound ret i ever owned...just two metal spring fingers but mounted to a micro-click adjustable mount...it's what i upgraded to after the superflights..



















plungers didn't fair well on 80# 3D wheelie bows. :cool2:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Matt,

I forgot you string-walk. Whenever my new Spig gets here (a couple months, I'm told) I'll be riding that learning curve again. It's been a long time since I walked the string for field rounds -- I sure do miss it.


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