# Lost on tuning



## I'M DK (Jul 4, 2012)

Kit bows are not setup by the manufacturer.
They are assembled.
Tuning is on you or the shop you bought it from.

The only way you'll know how your broadheads fly is to shoot them.
Good luck.

Dk


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## wb_hunter (Sep 26, 2020)

I'M DK said:


> Kit bows are not setup by the manufacturer.
> They are assembled.
> Tuning is on you or the shop you bought it from.


A kind of blanket statement I can't really agree on.
But for that price it seems all too true. I suppose "Warrior River" is a rebranding of Junxing or a similar Chinese manufacturer. Their low prices are not a miracle, they have to economize on something.
I have shot PSE, Bowtech and Elite bows, and always got it properly "tuned" just by moving the arrow rest.


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## String Bender (Feb 1, 2020)

If possible, number the last 2 arrows and shoot them again thru paper. If you get the same results, spin the nock 120 degrees and shoot them again, see if tears are consistent. Also, check for contact on your rest .


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## tirving (Nov 3, 2013)

I think you need to temper your expectations of a bow that has a draw weight range of 20-70# and costs under $300 new. 
I write this because you are getting inconsistencies through paper. With a flagship bow from a reputable manufacturer, it would be pretty safe to say stuff like this is all you. With this bow, I think it's a coin toss and probably both. 
Honestly, it's too late for you to start from scratch and it sounds like you have neither a bow press nor a draw board, correct?
If I had to tune this bow, I'd set everything up centered and square and shoot through paper. If I was getting inconsistent tears, I'd figure out why, before moving anything around. 
First thing I'd try is to make sure my grip was exactly the same every shot.
Then, anchor is the same every shot
Still inconsistent? Likely the bow
Without consistent tears, there's really no use in paper tuning, go straight to broadhead and see if you can get a good enough group to hit a deer in the vitals, then, after the season is over, try and shoot better than that.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

So I started over this afternoon. Moved everything square and got back to where I started yesterday. Low left tear. Then I figured out, or at least think I did, that I was getting contact on some arrows to the cables. Bully fletching are pretty tall. That rest pretty well requires the cock feather to go up, because the fletching will hit the plastic the whiskers are on. So I had to turn all the knocks where the cock feather was slightly off TDC to keep from cable contact and rest contact. After that, I got it to bullet holes. I was suprised that I never had to move the rest left and right. Once I didn’t get cable contact and had the vertical right, the left right was good. I also maxed out my draw weight before I started. I was shooting 54lbs before that. It was nice to easily pull back, but an extra 10 lbs didn’t hurt me any. I developed shoulder problems 10 years ago when I was shooting is why I started off low.

Then I realized it’s not like riding a bike. I’m having to relearn my shooting. My grip and trigger punch can cause a bad tear 😂😂. I realized it and slowed down to focus. Having to do this with an hour of daylight in the evening gets me rushing pretty bad. I was able to punch center and touch arrows at 20 yards, so I am pretty happy. I am planning on raising my FOC a little bit by adding some weight with an insert. I went a little stiff on spine selection to do just that. I’ll wait to put the inserts in until I have some time to check tears and adjust the sight again. I’m definitely a fan of the Ashby Archery Foundation message.

On the bow cost, trust me, I was very worried I wasted $232 dollars the moment I ordered it, but at that price I was willing to gamble. It looked like a quality build compared to the ones you see on Amazon and other Chinese based selling platforms. I suspect it’s being made in China, but the advertising/descriptions were flawless English and it was being sold by Archery focused sites. Many of those bows on Amazon flat out either lie or completely misrepresent their specs. Pretty typical for a direct Chinese seller to just copy someone else’s specs and not understand what they’re making compares to those specs and how the wording in English is wrong.

Honestly though, it’s a smooth shooting bow. I like the draw cycle better than my old single cam. The sight and rest are not great, but they’re useable. One day I’ll replace them and the string. The string worries me the most. It is not a tightly wound good looking string or the wraps around the string. I’ll get a quality local string after this season. That’s something you should be replacing periodically anyway. The manual appears to be written by a US based company, so maybe someone at 30-06 designed the bow? I haven’t found another one that looks just like it on the riser and cams. Maybe the Bear Legit?

Not an advertisement for them, but don’t mock it until you nock it. I’m happy with my bow and my left over $$$. Everyone that has held it has been pretty blown away, too. Definitely looks and feels like a more expensive bow. I’d bet a brick and mortar store would never carry it. They couldn’t afford to stay open with these on the shelf. I guess there are plenty of elitist out there for the bow shops though. Much like fly fishing I guess. Got to remember it is a hunting bow though. I don’t think I’d be able to punch center groups at 90 meters with a 30” axel-to-axel and stubby stabilizer in the Olympics.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Yes, the 20-70 range seems strange, but they provide a chart in the manual to explain it. Very draw length dependent. The way the limbs are and the peep for the bolt threads, the limbs let off very fast and looks to have a lot of thread to nearly get the string loose. Probably not the most efficient bow in the world with cams and limbs capable of that, but it seems fast enough. I’m not shooting with anyone right now to get a feel for how the arrow penetration compares to a more known bow. I’m almost scared to put it through a chronograph to know the real speed. I’ve seen 40lb pulls kill white tails though, so I should be good!

I should mention I am putting some little hang on silencers on it soon. It has some string noise. It should be another benefit of raising the arrows weight someone more, too.

Another side note, how do you guys feel about the split limb, limb savers? I don’t plan to ever dry fire my bow, but I also wouldn’t buy insurance for my house or car if things always went as planned. I know I’ve read on some other bows that they tested them to dry fires and they were fine. I don’t feel confident that is the case here.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Here’s another poor picture for you guys as well! Was using my sons coloring paper today!! Hard to see, but the fletchings pretty well center the shot.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Wanted to give another update. I went to setup the rest of my pins today, and I was still getting some random fliers that I was sure wasn’t my grip or anything else. The arrows sounded like they were vibrating through the air. Very loud for what it should be. I studied the rest some more and decided I don’t think I could get perfect clearance from the rest AND the cables with these bully fletchings. These are the only style fletchings I’ve ever used, so changing fletchings just didn’t seem like the right choice. The rest was cheap and plastic anyway. So I went and spent half of what I did on the bow for a new rest (because I could change it to another bow later anyway 🤪). Got a QAD Ultra-rest HDX from my local pro shop. Instructions were super simple and it is a quality rest, so I got it put on and squared quickly. Arrows sounded much better and the bow sounded quieter, too, so I was happy. I knew I would have to paper tune it again though, at the very least for me to sleep peacefully tonight (which looks like I’ll be hunting tomorrow afternoon based on my not actually sleeping until the next morning, if at all with this rain.)

Fast forward to after the family got to bed, I’m shooting through an opened box with a paper hanging from the top using a chip bag clip in my basement (opened front and back). Full paper tuning setup via kitchen supplies! It gets better though. I’m getting a low tear again. I move the rest almost all the way down. Start moving the knock up. I finally get to a point where I am sure that I’ve gained 100FPS from shooting downhill at a 45 degree angle. So I start researching and it would seem that knock travel is probably the cause. I verified this by seeing that the arrow was leveling out when drawing back, where prior to drawing back the arrow was at a really steep angle. Well as I mentioned in my first post I had another archery check my timing. Well he needs glasses. I setup my phone and videoed my draw and cams at full draw. Top cam was digging into the cable, while bottom was barely touching it. Darn, now I need a press… 

Well it turns out the Chinese bows have one thing going for them 😂 longest limb bolts in the industry! I tried to make a homemade press from an old screw Jack, but that wasn’t working out with what I have on hand and a sleeping family. So I decided to back out the limb bolts. I never found the end of them, but I was able to add some twist to the top cam’s cable.

Violà, shooting bullet holes! I must admit, the last picture I attached was the only bullet hole I shot. I was so tired of fighting it and shooting, when I got one I stopped. Well this time I’ve shot 5 in a row. So accurate I put them all on the same 11x8.5 paper exactly where I wanted them. I actually had to move the rest up a little bit to get them dead perfect.

In another case, my sight was moved all the way up and I was still hitting high before tuning the new rest (old rest was hitting on target with the same sight settings). I believe now that my knock point is higher while trying to tune before correcting the timing, I should be able to have my sight back to a more normal setting tomorrow when I got to set my pins again. The peep height has been perfect for me, and is under 6” from the D-loop, so I think it was good at placement even before scooting the loop up a 1/2”.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

From this:








To this:


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Then to this:









I know it’s low on the deer. I was shooting groups of three to set my yardage pins when it happened.


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## String Bender (Feb 1, 2020)

RealBad said:


> Then to this:
> View attachment 7477444
> 
> 
> I know it’s low on the deer. I was shooting groups of three to set my yardage pins when it happened.


Nice shooting and way to hang in there! Feels pretty good tuning your bow and getting those results.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Question: Why can’t I leave well enough alone?

So I broke that cheap sight that came on the bow. Instead of fixing it, I got a nice one. A whole $33 later, and yes it was a nice one compared to the one that came with the bow, I’m trying to sight it in again.

It seemed to sight in at short yardage well. Once I got out to 35yds+, it seemed to give me some trouble. Not much, just not splitting arrows. I do feel like my eyesight was a little blurry from work and my shoulder is killing me. I am enjoying the lighter poundage bow because I have a shoulder issue that became apparent when I was shooting 10 years ago. I’m almost at 60lbs with the limb bolts all the way in on my 26.5” draw. I could shoot 70 for hunting, but I definitely can’t go target shooting at that. It was actually more comfortable about 5lbs lighter than now, but I don’t want to sacrifice the speed anymore than I already am.

Back to the point, I shot some bare shafts at a bag target. I know, bag targets are not good for this purpose. The arrows appeared to be what I would be looking for: one straight, one a tiny bit left, one a tiny bit right, nocks that is. BUT, I swear I could see the bare shaft arrows coming off the bow nock high and to the right every time. Maybe I’m crazy. Maybe I should go buy a broad head target and try bare shaft tuning at the house (local bow range doesn’t allow personal targets or broad heads).

What would your next step be? I’m thinking bare shaft through paper at a further yardage than the first paper tune (15 - 20 yards vs 5), but how would you know which way is the nock?


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## String Bender (Feb 1, 2020)

You can shoot thru paper at 15 yards, make sure your paper is at least your arrows length away from the target. Also, with a bareshaft tear, look at your picture above. Where the field tip impacts the paper, it will cave in a little and the rest is a tear in the paper. Take your time and try to get consistent tear's .Good luck.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Well I thought I had a way to shoot paper, but no way for me to set it up at the range, which is on my way home from work.

I could definitely see the arrow going nock high and to the right like I thought. So I bare shaft tuned it watching the arrow flight. 15 yards and staring down range at the target, not through the sight. I tuned it where it was consistently flat. I was happy to see the arrows reacting to my rest movements consistently as well. Probably not finely tuned, but much better than when I started. I also had another archer with me watching my flight. He was confirming everything I was seeing.

I was mostly suprised at how the arrow would only be slightly quartered towards where I saw it in flight when it was in the bag. When I started, it looked like the nock was 6” high and left, but it would only be an inch off in the target. I guess the small hole the field point makes draws it closer to square.

It put the arrow closer to square up and down (with the string that is), but it put the rest where it looks like the end of the arrow is pointing to the left. I figured the arrow would be straight with the string when I line up the string, riser, and string stopper (my string stopper is straight out of the riser to the center of the string.

It that normal? I plan to shoot some fletched through paper again just to see what it looks like. Probably shoot bare shaft through as well to see if they agree before I moved anything else.

Moving my rest threw my sight way off, so I’ll be back at it again tomorrow afternoon, wasting away this early season. I won’t go into the woods until I feel good about it though. I’m in the Ashby Foundation crowd, but to a lesser extent on the weight. I’m shooting heavier than the people I know, but I know I’m shooting at white tail and don’t need my arrow dropping out of my sights ability at 60 yards. Not to mention, I can’t build a 650 grain arrow from my local bow shops or stores. I do know that getting that near perfect arrow flight is extremely important for the highest amount of penetration though.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

So on my lunch break I went to a new bow shop and got some serving tied to keep from pinching the knock or letting my D-loop move, and picked up some other things I needed. Pretty sure my wife would flip if you knew what I have spent in the last couples weeks getting geared up to hunt again. I had a marker in my pocket to mark the darn nock point and still forgot to do it. The loop got moved to some extent, throwing my nocks down. I shot through some paper while I was there and the nocks were down. So when I got to the range, I cut off the serving and d-loop off and re-did them. Pretty sloppy job, but it’ll do. Nocks we’re still a little low watching the bare shaft fly. Adjusted it out where 2 of my three arrows looked dang near perfect to me, and I am certain it was me pulling the third one every time. Then I went to do some group tuning with bare shaft and fletched further out to see which way to fine tune the rest. The groups were intertwined, so I left it. Then I set the sight. At 30 or less I was afraid to shoot multiple arrows for how close they were. I was for sure going to split another one, so I focused on 40+, where I couldn’t hold the bow still enough 😂. I did struggle to hold a good group at 40+, but I really think it was how shaky I had got from my left shoulder hurting so bad. I couldn’t hold it still. I ended up having to experiment with different ways to pull the bow back trying to relieve some of the pain. I did settle on a way that felt much better. It feels like I’m putting more pressure on a shoulder muscle connecting to my chest now, than like it was before pushing my bones together (bones touching was the prognosis from many years ago via X-ray and this is my left shoulder so if you can imagine). So I will take a break from target practice, besides slinging some broad heads closer in at home tomorrow to see how they are tracking, and give the shoulder time to heal up some before hitting the range again to see if I can do any more fine tuning. After a little bit of pulling the bow back differently, I was able to group three arrows at 50 yards in a squirrel on the target, so I should be good out to that range for a deer. I know most people say they shoot 30 or less, but honestly a 60 yard shot on a whitetail is plenty ethical. You just have to be sure on the accuracy and get a good broadside. I will say, shooting a little heavier arrow, and this Chinese bow, I feel like my arrows were around 210 FPS or slower. Felt like a long time to travel that 60 yards. A little less than a second sounds about right. Need someone with a stop watch to see 😂.


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## retrieverfishin (Oct 18, 2010)

For the love of all things holy please do not fling an arrow at a deer 60yd away. Please.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Here is a good internet for for you:

“This is a hotly debated question. In reality, a safe distance is determined by the individual archer's skill level. Out West, it's not uncommon for bowhunters to harvest animals at distances past 100 yards. Mention these distances to Southern bowhunters and they're liable to expel you from their hunt camp. I recommend that archers only attempt shots they can routinely execute on the practice range. If you practice at 35 yards and are consistent, your effective range is 35 yards. If you're accurate on the range past 50 yards, then it's a safe bet you can drop an animal at long distances. Keep in mind that Olympic archers compete with recurve bows shooting fingers at 90 meters (that's 98 yards). You simply can't put a yardage limit on shots; it's all about your competence level.

-Todd Kuhn, Bowhunting Expert”

Although it’s been a decade, I’ve shot a deer at 60 yards. The fellas out west take long shots at bigger animals with no my momentum or Ke. Like I said, got to be confident on your accuracy and get a broadside at that distance. Plenty of guys pull shots at 30 yards. At least at 60 yards if you pull it, you’ll likely miss the deer altogether instead of a gut shot. None the less, to each his own competency.


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## retrieverfishin (Oct 18, 2010)

RealBad said:


> Here is a good internet for for you:
> 
> “This is a hotly debated question. In reality, a safe distance is determined by the individual archer's skill level. Out West, it's not uncommon for bowhunters to harvest animals at distances past 100 yards. Mention these distances to Southern bowhunters and they're liable to expel you from their hunt camp. I recommend that archers only attempt shots they can routinely execute on the practice range. If you practice at 35 yards and are consistent, your effective range is 35 yards. If you're accurate on the range past 50 yards, then it's a safe bet you can drop an animal at long distances. Keep in mind that Olympic archers compete with recurve bows shooting fingers at 90 meters (that's 98 yards). You simply can't put a yardage limit on shots; it's all about your competence level.
> 
> ...


You are not nearly competent at 60 yards yet nor is your equipment suitable for such a shot. Keep it to 30 and under. The game you are pursuing deserves that level of respect. Sorry to be blunt like that, but someone needs to say it.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

You must work for NSA, you elitist snob. I bet you’ve been watching me shoot all week to know I couldn’t hit a tight group at 60 yards! Video must of skipped out the two times a robinhooded arrows this week! What I need a $1700 bow to shot an extra 20 yards? Kick rocks dude.


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## retrieverfishin (Oct 18, 2010)

RealBad said:


> You must work for NSA, you elitist snob. I bet you’ve been watching me shoot all week to know I couldn’t hit a tight group at 60 yards! Video must of skipped out the two times a robinhooded arrows this week! What I need a $1700 bow to shot an extra 20 yards? Kick rocks dude.


Very mature. Not being an elitist at all. 210fps and 60yd shots on live animals is a recipe for disaster. These are living creatures who deserve our respect. I personally wouldn't take a shot at that range and I am a very competent archer shooting a bow much more capable of retaining energy downrange. Shoot what you like and enjoy every minute of the journey. I will never judge an archer based on what bow he is shooting. I will judge someone who resorts to name calling when he is given sound advice based on experience and physics.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## tirving (Nov 3, 2013)

retrieverfishin said:


> Very mature. Not being an elitist at all. 210fps and 60yd shots on live animals is a recipe for disaster. These are living creatures who deserve our respect. I personally wouldn't take a shot at that range and I am a very competent archer shooting a bow much more capable of retaining energy downrange. Shoot what you like and enjoy every minute of the journey. I will never judge an archer based on what bow he is shooting. I will judge someone who resorts to name calling when he is given sound advice based on experience and physics.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


I agree, it's not hard to tell you're pretty green on the shooting/tuning process just from reading this thread. 60 yards at 210fps with animals that can and will jump the string is a disaster waiting to happen. Stuff like this harms the whole hunting community

I'd shoot an elk at 60 in perfect conditions but they're not twitchy like whitetails are.


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## RealBad (Sep 29, 2021)

Ah, I see, based on physics and experience. 

Well physics tells me that knowing the arrow speed doesn’t give you momentum or Ke, so the ability to pass through an animal is still unknown. Not only that, the design of the bow holds no weight to a bow “retaining energy down range” but only the starting energy. I’ll admit that an IBO of 310 isn’t great, but it’s not the bow of the old days with IBOs sub 300s. Energy down range is actually is only controable based on our fletchings, arrow length, arrow diameter, and arrow weight, which ironically arrows retain energy down range better the HEAVIER they are. That must mean that a slower arrow off the same bow would actually have more energy! So a statement regarding my equipment based off a single FPS number, which was more of a joke because of my precieved flight time at 50 yards. Side note, I actually figured my FPS through some of my slow motion video I was using to perfect my arrow flight and online calculators, about 220 is accurate, but that tells you nothing of the energy at that distance, or at 0 yards for that matter! Not to mention, my inexperienced self was able to almost guess my FPS based on shooting my bow, which is actually pretty accurate considering the average speed since arrows off all bows slow down throughout the flight, but slow down less over that period for heavier arrows.

Then for you to state you’re using equipment much more capable of retaining energy down range, and basing statements on physics, that must mean you’re using heavier 750 grain arrows, at which I would love to know how fast they’re going?!

Experience, of myself and others. tells me that arrow speed doesn’t do much in the way of a deer jumping the string. At 20 yards with a heavy arrow on most bows, deer have enough time to drop quiet a bit! Deer can react in under a .25 second, and I don’t see anyone putting arrows at 40 yards in under .25 second. That would be a blazing 480 FPS+!!! So it sounds like you should be telling everyone to shoot bows at 330 FPS+ and only under 25 yards!

So it really comes down to my original statement, you have to be sure of the shot and it should be a broad side. I guess I should add that shooting heavier arrows to SLOW DOWN your arrows, silence the bow, and retain “energy down range” also helps here. Aim for the heart and even at 60 yards you’ll probably get a double lung, maybe if it was a fast dear, you might get liver. Heck, with a quiet bow shooting slower and heavier, the deer may not react to the noise at that distance! That’s what my experience and physics tells me.

People not shooting enough, not educating themselves on the physics of bow hunting, not learning proper shot placement for bows because of the possibility of the deer’s reaction and where bones/vitals are, and people thinking their version of physics or misconstrued experiences are the truths of the world, are what hurts the community and makes it look bad. If people did the first three things, they would stop wounding deer at 20-40 yards and be able to harvest most animals at 60. If people stopped doing the last one, then maybe the people of said community could learn a thing or two and come out more educated on the other side!


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Before I respond to your points I want to go on record. I believe that are folks who are good enough and under the right conditions can ethically take game at 60+ yards.

@RealBad I don't believe YOU are one of those people, yet. (for the record, neither am I)



RealBad said:


> So on my lunch break I went to a new bow shop and got some serving tied to keep from pinching the knock or letting my D-loop move, and picked up some other things I needed. Pretty sure my wife would flip if you knew what I have spent in the last couples weeks getting geared up to hunt again. I had a marker in my pocket to mark the darn nock point and still forgot to do it. The loop got moved to some extent, throwing my nocks down. I shot through some paper while I was there and the nocks were down. So when I got to the range, I cut off the serving and d-loop off and re-did them. Pretty sloppy job, but it’ll do. Nocks we’re still a little low watching the bare shaft fly. Adjusted it out where 2 of my three arrows looked dang near perfect to me, and I am certain it was me pulling the third one every time. Then I went to do some group tuning with bare shaft and fletched further out to see which way to fine tune the rest. The groups were intertwined, so I left it. Then I set the sight. At 30 or less I was afraid to shoot multiple arrows for how close they were. I was for sure going to split another one, so I focused on 40+, where I couldn’t hold the bow still enough 😂. *I did struggle to hold a good group at 40+, but I really think it was how shaky I had got from my left shoulder hurting so bad. I couldn’t hold it still.* I ended up having to experiment with different ways to pull the bow back trying to relieve some of the pain. I did settle on a way that felt much better. It feels like I’m putting more pressure on a shoulder muscle connecting to my chest now, than like it was before pushing my bones together (bones touching was the prognosis from many years ago via X-ray and this is my left shoulder so if you can imagine). So I will take a break from target practice, besides slinging some broad heads closer in at home tomorrow to see how they are tracking, and give the shoulder time to heal up some before hitting the range again to see if I can do any more fine tuning. After a little bit of pulling the bow back differently, I was able to group three arrows at 50 yards in a squirrel on the target, so I should be good out to that range for a deer. I know most people say they shoot 30 or less, but honestly a 60 yard shot on a whitetail is plenty ethical. *You just have to be sure on the accuracy and get a good broadside*. I will say, shooting a little heavier arrow, and this Chinese bow, I feel like my arrows were around 210 FPS or slower. Felt like a long time to travel that 60 yards. A little less than a second sounds about right. Need someone with a stop watch to see 😂.


You admit to struggling to hold good groups at 40+ but then claim it's ethical for YOU to shoot deer at 60??? 

While I agree with YOU and YOUR bow are probably lethal at 60yards.... Ethical, not so much. Hitting a target at that range is a lot different than a living creature. You sir, contradicted yourself in multiple posts in this thread and have zero reason to believe that you should shoot a deer at that range. 

It's your tag and you have to look yourself in the mirror every morning. If you take that shot and wound a deer after these warnings, that's on you.



RealBad said:


> You must work for NSA, you elitist snob. *I bet you’ve been watching me shoot all week to know I couldn’t hit a tight group at 60 yards! Video must of skipped out the two times a robinhooded arrows this week! *What I need a $1700 bow to shot an extra 20 yards? Kick rocks dude.


It's not about being an elitist or a snob. You yourself admitted to struggling at 40+. It's not whether or not YOU can do it sometimes.... When you are hunting, you need to focus on high percentage shots. This objection has nothing to do with the bow you decided to buy.... It has everything to do with YOU and your inability to accept YOUR limitations. (If you haven't shot for years and then decide a few weeks out from the season to get back into it.... Your limitations are more than you think!!!)

You are the only one who seems to care about how much your bow costs....and even broken clocks are right twice a day. 



RealBad said:


> Ah, I see, based on physics and experience.
> 
> Well physics tells me that knowing the arrow speed doesn’t give you momentum or Ke, so the ability to pass through an animal is still unknown. Not only that, the design of the bow holds no weight to a bow “retaining energy down range” but only the starting energy. I’ll admit that an IBO of 310 isn’t great, but it’s not the bow of the old days with IBOs sub 300s. Energy down range is actually is only controable based on our fletchings, arrow length, arrow diameter, and arrow weight, which ironically arrows retain energy down range better the HEAVIER they are. That must mean that a slower arrow off the same bow would actually have more energy! So a statement regarding my equipment based off a single FPS number, which was more of a joke because of my precieved flight time at 50 yards. Side note, I actually figured my FPS through some of my slow motion video I was using to perfect my arrow flight and *online calculators*, about 220 is accurate, but that tells you nothing of the energy at that distance, or at 0 yards for that matter! Not to mention, my inexperienced self was able to almost guess my FPS based on shooting my bow, which is actually pretty accurate considering the average speed since arrows off all bows slow down throughout the flight, but slow down less over that period for heavier arrows.
> 
> ...


Your entire argument here is completely out the window just by you using an online arrow speed calculator to prove a point....

It's clear you've done a lot of reading and cruising through some internet forums as your argument attempts to use all of the buzz words used by everyone who comes to these sites and tries to justify long shots on live animals.... Almost everyone comes back a few weeks later with a post "I lost a deer, I don't know what went wrong".

There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks on this page, you came here asking for advice/assistance and when you got a response that you didn't like, you threw a tantrum. Good luck getting help in the future....


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

Back in the mid-eighties, I was shooting well enough to win regional and state championships, indoors and outdoors, shooting BHFSL class equipment. I won a couple Atlantic City medals shooting in open class. (I wish I shot that well at 71, but I don't). 

The story: I was hunting from a tree stand one season, and a big doe wandered into sight and started feeding on acorns. Using one of the old parallax range finders, the range was just a bit short of 60yds. Too far.
But time dragged on, and the doe kept feeding, so I thought I'd give the shot a try. I had 20 pins for the 60yd range, and I shot well enough to score a 19, and often a 20 at that range. My Jennings T-Star pitched a 2117 about 220fps, fast at the time. Possible for sure. Cranking back, and holding steady for a center lung shot, I let one ride. Doe doe jumped at the sound, SWITCHED ENDS, and just as she did, the arrow caught her in the spine, just up from the shoulder. She went down like a stone. 
Moral of the story, lots can happen on a 60yd shot. More bad things than good. I was lucky, doe was not.

I have made 45yd shots here in the east, from time to time, with much faster bows. It takes very good conditions on a deer that's not moving. Most of the time, I let 'em walk, and wait for a closer shot.


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