# Why I don't use back tension as a firing engine



## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Well I wasted about a year trying to get it to work. Almost gave up on ever being very good at archery. Came close to falling for the line of BS that you either have it or you don't. I could shoot low 50x with the Larry Wise way. That was not where I wanted to be. Some are or would be happy with that level of shooting I wasn't. 

Then came the Scott Seminar and a TruBall seminar and my eyes got opened up.

Reo talked in one he is always messing with his draw length. Up to an 1/8". My jaw hit the floor. How can this be. He talked about shooting one size cam at Lancaster and a different one at Vegas. What I took from that was draw length is for one thing HOLD.

So all these guys that pay the bills with a bow aren't using this method because they have never been taught correctly or that they don't know how to expand through their back?

I think that it took a lot of guts for Levi to say what he did in that video. He tried to be as delicate and complementary of Mr. Wise as he could before saying he and none of the other pros use his method.

They used to post on here (Pros) before getting tired of it. I am glad they have found other means of getting their help out there.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

erdman41 said:


> So all these guys that pay the bills with a bow aren't using this method because they have never been taught correctly or that they don't know how to expand through their back?


Nobody on here has said that. All that has been said is that many of the criticisms of the method, including the condemnations that it's a "myth", are misguided by misinformation about the method. Much of that generated by persons who've a) never tried it, b) didn't learn to use back tension correctly, and on occasion c) misinterpretations of shooters rejecting it simply as a matter of preference for another method.

Again, for the record, no one is saying (at least at the current time anyway), that not using the PBT method indicates a failing of the archer who chooses another method.

LS


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

in the book that bernie pellerite wrote he talked about what type person each is, type A-B-C-D and just what mixture each person maybe. the best archer`s are type B mostly,and these people can shoot any release well , type A``s like myself really need to shoot a back tension it helps us alot in target archery not bowhunting.people`s type like B might be good at achery for example but type A`s make better coach`s for example not all of us will be great archers but the backtension release does help me some.i do suspect you are lucky you sound like a type B as is my son so any release works well.one of the best unknown shooter`s i know who always shoot`s 58x-60x ,at a state championship shoot his release broke ,had no spare i had a cheap hunt`n wrist strap release he used it for his last 15 arrows which were all `x`s won state,gave me back the release said release was fine,yep he is a solid type B ,also he could care less about winning anything that`s the way some type B`s are.glad you can shoot any release,Pete53


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

K. 

Target archery isn't black or white but the emotion in everybody's topics here lately and responses promote one way or the other. It's a natural mode that occurs with excessive passion and a keyboard. I don't care either way but if u can answer a few questions as to "how" I may uncover one more tool for my shooting toolbox that I can dig out and use later.

What type of release do u use and how do you fire it now?

If it's a hinge, have you cooled it down from its previous setting? 

What do you do to maintain front/rear balance?

What do you do to prevent bleeding off back side tension/softening in the front?

Once u moved to a different shot break method, what was your progress rate - step function or linear?

How many months/years/arrows did it take to move from low 50x to 59-60x?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, Levi wasn't the first to announce such, other means to fire a hinge. And so far all agree the "other means" is not cheating. How can it be cheating if one is placing or winning?"

Just saying Levi doesn't use it means little. You say you knocked over low 50 Xs. Has your number of Xs gone up? Or is shooting easier?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Rick! said:


> K.
> 
> Target archery isn't black or white but the emotion in everybody's topics here lately and responses promote one way or the other. It's a natural mode that occurs with excessive passion and a keyboard. I don't care either way but if u can answer a few questions as to "how" I may uncover one more tool for my shooting toolbox that I can dig out and use later.


WARNING: I'm nowhere near the level of probably all the folks here - I'm a retread relearning how to shoot, so my perspective is, er... fresh from the beginner's experience, I'll put it that way lol.


> What type of release do u use and how do you fire it now?


Carter Honey Do, I use the "PBT" method (just pull).


> If it's a hinge, have you cooled it down from its previous setting?


I've actually heated mine up. I have two Honey Do's, one of which was repaired and setup by Forrest Carter. He set it up hotter than my original HD and I found that that was preferable to me. It's not hair-trigger hot, but maybe egg-drop-soup warm...


> What do you do to maintain front/rear balance?


Keep the shoulders down, relax the small muscles and "transfer" to the back muscles by the time I release the safety. Pull only with the back all the way through the shot. That seems to help insure good alignment for me - the back muscles don't really work right if I'm leaning back or have hiked up the shoulders etc.


> What do you do to prevent bleeding off back side tension/softening in the front?


Maintain back tension and take a break when it starts to break down.


> Once u moved to a different shot break method, what was your progress rate - step function or linear?


Step function absolutely. When I went to PBT I could suddenly hit the target bail every time. Freezing and anticipation issues dissipated. Before that, the ceiling and air conditioner ducts at the shop ate a whole bunch of Goldtips. No more! LOL.


> How many months/years/arrows did it take to move from low 50x to 59-60x?


Er... what?.. what's so-and-so-x?.... I'm still trying to hit the target. I mean my target, not the guy's next to me.... 

LS


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Rick! said:


> K.
> 
> Target archery isn't black or white but the emotion in everybody's topics here lately and responses promote one way or the other. It's a natural mode that occurs with excessive passion and a keyboard. I don't care either way but if u can answer a few questions as to "how" I may uncover one more tool for my shooting toolbox that I can dig out and use later.
> 
> ...


What type of release do u use and how do you fire it now?

Hinge Pull with the back while relaxing the hand.


If it's a hinge, have you cooled it down from its previous setting? 

I have had to slow my hinge down over time. My thought is I don't want it going off to soon. If it takes to long I can let down and start over. If it goes off too soon I can't get that arrow back.


What do you do to maintain front/rear balance?

I have a small amount of push towards the target and I am not pulling extremely hard into the wall. But I am pushing straight towards the target and pulling straight away from the target (or at least try to). So if there is some imbalance in the halves it is not affecting anything.


Once u moved to a different shot break method, what was your progress rate - step function or linear?

It was fairly immediate. I could see groups tightening and the fliers were from past techniques creeping in. Once past techniques were purged completely progress was steady. Not sure if that was answered in a way you were looking for.


How many months/years/arrows did it take to move from low 50x to 59-60x?

Shot my first 5 spot round on 1-4-11 was a 300 50x with a hunting rig and command shooting. Completely mentally drained after 60 arrows and looking back I am amazed I thought archery was fun. I was a bow hunter for many years who got the bow out a week before season and put it away on the last day of season. I've shot 300 50x rounds every way I think there possibly can be. Not where I ultimately wanted to be.

Shot my first (only so far) 60x on 12-13-14. Most of my progress has been made in the last 8-9 months. Lessons were learned before that but never was able to put it all together. I abandoned the command shooting in Oct 2012 and started with a hinge and Core Archery. Spent next year to 18 months struggling with that. Finely found the info that this was not the only way and actually a way that very few were actually using. A lot of the ones using it had something in common and that was scores that weren't as good as what I wanted to be.

This past summer I shot many 720 rounds at 65 yards on a 60cm face. I would shoot 2-3 rounds firing my release with different methods. Patterns could be seen fairly soon and clearly as to what each strengths and short comings were. This is how I decided on how I was going to dedicate myself to firing my hinge. If it works at 65 yards it will work at 20 the reverse isn't true. Also started reading "with winning in mind". I started to become process oriented instead of results oriented.

I also had a nice conversation with a young man from Southern Wisconsin who is a great archer and seems to be a great kid. This was after a 900 round and I chatted with him for 45 minutes. This is were I started to add a little push into the target with my bow arm. Before this my bow arm was always static. This really helped my hold. I plan on thanking him at state next weekend for that and then try to beat him lol.

Number of arrows I have no idea. I can get 15 yards in my basement and 80 yards in my backyard. I would say 30-40 arrows a day minimum 7 days a week. Would shoot more but life gets in the way sometimes. Spring summer and fall I get to shoot more in the backyard than I do in the winter.

Every arrow I shoot I go through my shot process checklist. Grip (proper grip with soft hand), Shoulder (front shoulder low and relaxed), Back (nice push pull), Relax (bleed off forearm tension to back and relax hand). If I do these simple things that I have complete control over the arrow goes in the x. That's my story.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I find that most guys that use a hinge and have established a decent execution with it, eventually slow it down to the point that the break comes just before they "run out of room". I think, regardless of the process used fir release engine, it promotes giving a little more time to allow the pin/dot/ring to settle, without deliberately deviating from, or putting a pause into, a shot cadence that they find comfortable...sort of putting the break, in the middle of the process, instead of right up front, or back so far, they have to work to get the arrow out.
this phenomena, is very closely related to the 'shot window drill", where you train your shot to break, during the smallest range of sight float, or time element that that produces the most potential to hit the center.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, Levi wasn't the first to announce such, other means to fire a hinge. And so far all agree the "other means" is not cheating. How can it be cheating if one is placing or winning?"
> 
> Just saying Levi doesn't use it means little. You say you knocked over low 50 Xs. Has your number of Xs gone up? Or is shooting easier?


Wasn't just Levi that said he doesn't use it. Pretty much every Pro that offers to share is saying the same thing. I haven't heard one yet say they use the Wise way.

Wasn't always the case around here that other means isn't cheating the hinge. In fact it is a very recent phenomenon. A real positive change IMHO.

X's have gone way up and shooting is way easier. Last three rounds were 58, 59, 58. State shoot is less than a week away. It usually takes 117-119x's for the two days on the amateur side, tough state.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Glad for you, erdaman41. Wishing you luck at the State shoot....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Your story is very similar to my own story erdman41, I tell my story on a regular basis and I am proud of where I came from. It sucks that I had to suffer so long and waste valuable time but in the end I am better at shooting a bow that I ever imagined was really possible by a 45 year old math teacher.

Once we hurry up and realize as a community that your choice of how you send the arrow to the target is only one little part of the process and not even the most important one, we are closer than ever to getting to the point where our presentation of all the methods will be better than it ever has been and then and only then will we as a community rise to a new level of shooting.

Today I shot with two methods and all I can say is that it was a freaking sweet day of shooting where I enjoyed every minute, my dominant firing engine just sent the arrow to the center over and over from 40 to 20 yards and my secondary engine simply didn't.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

erdman41 said:


> Wasn't just Levi that said he doesn't use it. Pretty much every Pro that offers to share is saying the same thing. I haven't heard one yet say they use the Wise way.
> 
> Wasn't always the case around here that other means isn't cheating the hinge. In fact it is a very recent phenomenon. A real positive change IMHO.
> 
> X's have gone way up and shooting is way easier. Last three rounds were 58, 59, 58. State shoot is less than a week away. It usually takes 117-119x's for the two days on the amateur side, tough state.


Great explanation Scott! Your story is almost identical to mine as well as the execution style we have landed on that works for us. Good luck at state next weekend!

Just know I am planning on making you work for it:wink: 

And you are right, this IS a tough state. There are probably a dozen people capable of putting up back to back 59+ rounds just in the amateur ranks

John


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'd say more than that!. there aren't many spot tournaments or leagues any where, where the leaders aren't posting perfect games !.
unfortunately it's one of the issues that make people give and/or, not compete. seeing the same names at the top of list time after time, is very intimidating to getting up the nerve to sign up for leagues or a competition. the irony , is that when you don't get over that intimidating feeling, and don't enter, you miss out on the chance to learn things that might help you improve. there's probably no better motivation to improve, than "wanting to win", if you don't sign up, you don't get that motivation.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

ron w said:


> i'd say more than that!. there aren't many spot tournaments or leagues any where, where the leaders aren't posting perfect games !.
> unfortunately it's one of the issues that make people give and/or, not compete. seeing the same names at the top of list time after time, is very intimidating to getting up the nerve to sign up for leagues or a competition. the irony , is that when you don't get over that intimidating feeling, and don't enter, you miss out on the chance to learn things that might help you improve. there's probably no better motivation to improve, than "wanting to win", if you don't sign up, you don't get that motivation.


That is so true. I am so tired of people telling me they aren't ready or good enough to go shoot league or tournaments. That is how you learn and meet great people in the mean time. There can only be one "winner". So if you wait until you THINK you are ready, you will find you aren't and or have wasted too much of your life. Get out and enjoy it, make some friends and you will get better. If you only shoot to hunt, what better way to learn how to shoot with your knees shaking like a big buck is in your sights than at a tournament.

Yes some of the names at the top are the same but there are new faces showing up all the time ready to make their mark.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

sharkred7 said:


> Just know I am planning on making you work for it:wink:


Like wise lol

Maybe Chad too if he can stop switching his cams back and forth.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sharkred7 said:


> That is so true. I am so tired of people telling me they aren't ready or good enough to go shoot league or tournaments. That is how you learn and meet great people in the mean time. There can only be one "winner". So if you wait until you THINK you are ready, you will find you aren't and or have wasted too much of your life. Get out and enjoy it, make some friends and you will get better. If you only shoot to hunt, what better way to learn how to shoot with your knees shaking like a big buck is in your sights than at a tournament.
> 
> Yes some of the names at the top are the same but there are new faces showing up all the time ready to make their mark.


 I always tell people, "leagues is where you really learn to shoot your bow". it is an automatic source of regular, regimented practice, where you are the most motivated to work at making your best shots. the key is to not worry about score and work on your execution, the rest (the scores) will come in a couple weeks, or so. the point is that you need that motivation that leagues, or a little but of competitive pressure puts on your execution, just remember to start out , not being concerned about the scores you produce.
it think the biggest intimidator, is the feeling that they "need" to produce that good score to be productive in the league, individually, or on their team, if thee league is structured that way. the reality is that if, the league us a teem league, your teem mates know how tell you shoot, and by asking you to shoot with them, they are inviting you, to "come and get to be a better shooter".
if it an individual league, then the scores you produce make no difference, compared to the opportunity to really learn how to shoot well.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

unclejane said:


> WARNING: I'm nowhere near the level of probably all the folks here - I'm a retread relearning how to shoot, so my perspective is, er... fresh from the beginner's experience, I'll put it that way lol.
> 
> Carter Honey Do, I use the "PBT" method (just pull).
> 
> ...


LOL...I'm right there with you Unk.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

ron w said:


> i'd say more than that!. there aren't many spot tournaments or leagues any where, where the leaders aren't posting perfect games !.
> unfortunately it's one of the issues that make people give and/or, not compete. seeing the same names at the top of list time after time, is very intimidating to getting up the nerve to sign up for leagues or a competition. the irony , is that when you don't get over that intimidating feeling, and don't enter, you miss out on the chance to learn things that might help you improve. there's probably no better motivation to improve, than "wanting to win", if you don't sign up, you don't get that motivation.


Right! If you wait until you're "GOOD ENOUGH" you're gonna miss out on a lot of fun...you're gonna miss out on meeting some great people...you're gonna miss out on learning a lot about our favorite sport.

Because of some physical (and possibly mental) limitations I know I'll not make it to the podium in any major shoots. But that's OK because I've gotten so much more in return for my time and effort.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

It isn't just Indoor target for learning or finding out just how good you really are. 

Old story, 2003 IAA 3D State Championship. We talked a lot of our club members to shoot it and I even paid for two to shoot it. When the smoke cleared our members took 13 awards in the 25 classes and flights. Three took Champion.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sometimes, going in with the attitude that you're gonna shoot for the experience, pays off.
both times I went to Vegas, I clearly knew I had absolutely no chance, but I just wanted to experience shooting at the vegas tournament. 
obviously I was just another shooter there,... "a guppy in a big sea of sharks",.... but I did mange to shoot my personal best Vegas score, on Saturday morning, so i came away with an accomplishment, I never dreamed i'd make. I think I placed something like, 13th in the 12 flite, or 12th in the 13th flite, .... roughly 225th on the hamburger line !, but I actually made 75 or so bucks in the payout. entry fee was 125 bucks, so i shot the tournament for half price! I had no idea they paid that deep at the time. i almost didn't even bother to go look at the standings... i was that happy/satisfied just knowing that i shot my personal best,.... "at the tournament" !


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just looked at the Vegas score sheet for Unlimited Free Style, 26 Flights and right at 33 per flight (35 in some), over 832 shooters. Lord!

I totaled up 2520 shooters...


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

erdman41 said:


> Wasn't just Levi that said he doesn't use it. Pretty much every Pro that offers to share is saying the same thing. I haven't heard one yet say they use the Wise way.
> 
> Wasn't always the case around here that other means isn't cheating the hinge. In fact it is a very recent phenomenon. A real positive change IMHO.
> 
> X's have gone way up and shooting is way easier. Last three rounds were 58, 59, 58. State shoot is less than a week away. It usually takes 117-119x's for the two days on the amateur side, tough state.


^^Like

I'm in the fledgling stages of hinge shooting. I picked it up and just started shooting. Since then, I purposely haven't read the debates on how to do it. I just know it's helping me.

So let me get this straight......We forego the thumb trigger in trade for a "surprise" release method.......only to dissect said method of firing said release to DEATH?

No thank you!


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

speaking of Wisc. being a tough state for target shooting. the last time I shot the Badger State Games 900 round, which was like the second last year they held, I think....it was the last year they held it, at Blackhawk Archers, in Verona. a fellow from Wisconsin Rapids area won, I knew him, but can't recall his name right now, ...regardless,....he left the "x-ring", something like a total of 4 times the entire weekend !


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Just looked at the Vegas score sheet for Unlimited Free Style, 26 Flights and right at 33 per flight (35 in some), over 832 shooters. Lord!
> 
> I totaled up 2520 shooters...


There was definitely a lot of shooters there and things were always hopping and the halls were busy. Still a lot of fun to be had by all and I also shot my personnal best during a tournament but not what I was hoping for. I also ended up in flight 12 midway down. I got to meet N7709K Jacob and won a new Mathews TRG7 Saturday night at the world cup shoot off. That paid for the trip right there.


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## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

Can someone post a link to the levi Morgan video mentioned in this thread? I'd be interested to see it.

It's ok thanks. - found it.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

jwrigley said:


> Can someone post a link to the levi Morgan video mentioned in this thread? I'd be interested to see it.


Here you go... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2397366


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

erdman41 said:


> Like wise lol
> 
> Maybe Chad too if he can stop switching his cams back and forth.


Yes CHad is shooting great too. Be nice to make it a Chippewa Valley podium!


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the fact of the matter is that no-one 'has" to use back tension as a firing engine,....it's a matter of personal preference. some prefer to use some don't. any method used, is the one that is acceptable, to the person using it. 
my preference, is based on the known advantages of using it as a firing engine, in reference to the separation of focus between aiming and the release exectution itself, from the aiming process and the complexity of the mental administration of any finger, hand, or wrist manipulation, that exists with other methods.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

EPLC said:


> Here you go... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2397366


Very interesting.


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## bgviii (Feb 16, 2010)

Typically if you are holding the bow at full draw you are using some sort of back tension. I don't mean back as in part of the body either. I mean tension drawing back against the bow. Most releases can be fired with this tension (however your achieving it) and it works amazingly well with a hinge. That said and without going into the issues of steadiness etc by not using the actual back muscles, I've found that a consistent and quite satisfying release can be achieved with a simple understanding that a hinge is a lever. Most people struggle with consistency and issues of the hinge not firing easily because of the tension they are keeping in the hand and mostly the index finger. If you set the hinge up so you can almost completely release the index finger and continue the tension of drawing from the beginning of the shot, you can develop one of the most satisfying shots you will experience. It's the fear of actually transferring the tension to the middle and the rest of the fingers and the micro management of trying to get it to fire while on the X its what prevents most from achieving this style of release. The interesting part is that once you can free your mind to actually allow this to happen and put that energy into the relaxed aim, you will suddenly have your "subconscious" shot that is so rewarding. Also I know a lot of shooters who try to stop/start the motion. They draw, aim, and then try to pick up the tension to get the release to fire. This won't work consistently and is another main factor causing issues with the shot. The shot is one continuous motion from the minute you draw the bow until the explosion of the arrow. The only conscious management is the releasing the tension on the index and letting go of the thumb.


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## bgviii (Feb 16, 2010)

If you think of a teeter totter in relationship to a hinge. The more weight you have on one end the more weight (or pressure) it takes on the other end to get it to move. The hinge is not any different no matter how you slice it. Some are able to "apply" more weight to one side by squeezing and this gives them a sense of control. For us with target panic, release control is exactly the one thing that gives us fits. This occurs in varying degrees in different shooters. However, if you lighten the weight on the holding side of the hinge by relaxing the hand and index finger its almost impossible to allow the holding tension of the bow not to fire the release...The pros are able to manage the control because they are pros and shoot 400 arrows a day. This really isn't realistic for the majority of shooters with TP.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

bgviii said:


> Typically if you are holding the bow at full draw you are using some sort of back tension. I don't mean back as in part of the body either. I mean tension drawing back against the bow. Most releases can be fired with this tension (however your achieving it) and it works amazingly well with a hinge. That said and without going into the issues of steadiness etc by not using the actual back muscles, I've found that a consistent and quite satisfying release can be achieved with a simple understanding that a hinge is a lever. Most people struggle with consistency and issues of the hinge not firing easily because of the tension they are keeping in the hand and mostly the index finger. If you set the hinge up so you can almost completely release the index finger and continue the tension of drawing from the beginning of the shot, you can develop one of the most satisfying shots you will experience. It's the fear of actually transferring the tension to the middle and the rest of the fingers and the micro management of trying to get it to fire while on the X its what prevents most from achieving this style of release. The interesting part is that once you can free your mind to actually allow this to happen and put that energy into the relaxed aim, you will suddenly have your "subconscious" shot that is so rewarding. Also I know a lot of shooters who try to stop/start the motion. They draw, aim, and then try to pick up the tension to get the release to fire. This won't work consistently and is another main factor causing issues with the shot. The shot is one continuous motion from the minute you draw the bow until the explosion of the arrow. The only conscious management is the releasing the tension on the index and letting go of the thumb.


I agree 100% and for me at least the biggest problem was getting the hinge moon setup so I have the correct amount of rotation if you will to get it to fire. What helped for me was the click and setting it up like Griv explains so it clicks as I come to full draw. the tricky part was to be able to pull with all the fingers equally and not so much with the thumb and index finger which I had done for too long a time. It's taking me longer than I would like but that's just because us here want it our way and we want it NOW. I can see progress however small but realize it takes time. Baby steps, the best thing for me learning to shoot the hinge was to put away my thumb puncher and stay with the hinge, read through most if not all the post's here and Padgett's articles. I also have picked up tidbits from several others here and also want to mention the help I've received from N7709K (Jacob)as he has also kept me going in the right direction. A big thanks to all of you.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there needs to be a certain amount of engagement depth, that facilitates getting off the thumb peg at anchor, without causing an early fire. when this happens, it's usually because the release is set too hot, and the generation of rotation isn't well developed enough to produce what is needed to get the hook, off the moon's shelf. there is definitely a certain amount of compromise in this area. the starting position of the release hand's attitude at anchor, is actually of no concern to the amount of rotation developed, as long as the arrangement of the hand's angularity, allows enough rotation to fire the hinge after anchor. the position of the moon, in relation to the line of sight and the arrows intended path, is adjustable to accommodate this condition, and then, the depth of engagement, can be set to accommodate how much rotation can be generated. 
the problems arise when the depth is set, to break, at the slightest rotation. this condition, will always create a "timid execution".


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Ilove3d, many of the things that you mentioned in your post were promising and really liked your comment on wanting things NOW. Accuracy and success are what slow us down so much because we just want the results right now and lack of direction is something that really adds to it. I am going to give you a list of a few little things that you can do below that can give you some direction to your shooting so that you don't feel the need to let accuracy get in your way. 

1. HINGE SPEED SESSION, Just slow your hinge down a good amount and spend 30 minutes working on your speed. Now by slowing it down you already know that your hinge isn't going to fire so this is a good thing for the first few attempts because you can draw the bow very confidently that you can relax and use all your fingers and come to anchor and settle in and float on the spot you want to hit and just run your engine and again you already know it isn't going to fire so you just run your engine and then let down. At no time should you feel like you have to make it fire or it should have fired because you stinking slowed the hinge down so it shouldn't fire. Then grab your allen and speed it up very very very very slightly and repeat the process and enjoy the floating and the smooth engine running and the practice letting down. These three things that i just listed the floating and smooth engine and the letting down are three of the most important things for you to get on top of anyway and this little speed session starts out with all three of them. 

Sooner or later you are going to speed up the moon and come to full draw and the hinge is going to fire as you run the engine and then to finish up the speed session now you try and find your perfect speed setting that allows you to still draw with no anxiety and the hinge fires perfectly in your engine at a nice time.

2. THE PERFECT SHOT: After doing the speed training session the next day I would go into the bow shop and make the decision that I am going to do a perfect shot session, the perfect shot session is a awesome one because it has nothing to do accuracy. it has everything to do with you having a shot window and picking a number such as 3 seconds and coming to full draw and settling in and running your engine while you float and the shot happening right at 3 seconds and feeling awesome. Now you may have to shoot 5 or 10 or 15 shots before you feel a perfect shot but when you do feel that perfect shot take a moment to visualize what it felt like and then try and execute it again. In the beginning you probably will fail miserably but as time goes by you will be able to do it over and over and over and that is when you shooting will become very special.

3. SHIFT ME SESSION: This is a really cool shooting session because you are going to shift your focus from area to area and leave some areas alone to run by themselves. The areas are form, firing engine, floating, follow through, back tension. So basically you pick one of them such as your form and you focus on your stance and then coming to anchor and your front shoulder being low and you focus on these things being perfect and you execute the shot never thinking about anything else only focusing on the form being perfect. Then after 5 or 10 shots you shift your focus to your firing engine and you totally consciously run the engine and focus on it being smooth but for 10 or so shots and then you focus on your float and you watch its every move really focusing on it and making it smaller. 

This little shift session is a cool session because it forces you to learn to run all the systems subconsciously because you are picking one of them to focus on and the rest of them have to be left alone and just trusted to do their job. It also teaches you how focusing on any one item is a bad idea because that control that you give to that one area will be very stressfull and it dominates the shot. Focusing on a variety of areas of your shooting is very valuable and it will allow issues to pop up that you can choose to work on or ignore. Ignoring issues and allowing them to exist in your shot is a really bad thing and this session will bring them to the surface. 

The last 15 minutes of this session should be done with absolutely no focus on any system and you should just be a Spectator Shooter looking through your peep and enjoy your shooting. This should be a relief to be able to let go of the focus that you have been shifting to each one of your areas and produce some really nice shooting for the rest of your time on the range.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Padgett said:


> Ilove3d, many of the things that you mentioned in your post were promising and really liked your comment on wanting things NOW. Accuracy and success are what slow us down so much because we just want the results right now and lack of direction is something that really adds to it. I am going to give you a list of a few little things that you can do below that can give you some direction to your shooting so that you don't feel the need to let accuracy get in your way.
> 
> 1. HINGE SPEED SESSION, Just slow your hinge down a good amount and spend 30 minutes working on your speed. Now by slowing it down you already know that your hinge isn't going to fire so this is a good thing for the first few attempts because you can draw the bow very confidently that you can relax and use all your fingers and come to anchor and settle in and float on the spot you want to hit and just run your engine and again you already know it isn't going to fire so you just run your engine and then let down. At no time should you feel like you have to make it fire or it should have fired because you stinking slowed the hinge down so it shouldn't fire. Then grab your allen and speed it up very very very very slightly and repeat the process and enjoy the floating and the smooth engine running and the practice letting down. These three things that i just listed the floating and smooth engine and the letting down are three of the most important things for you to get on top of anyway and this little speed session starts out with all three of them.
> 
> ...


I've got to copy and paste this one to a word doc and use it later. We just got back from Vegas and found out we sold our house. Anyway, packing up and making one trip today and possibly another one before the weekend is over. This is just a start, do you have any idea how much stuff one can accumulate over 30 years in one house, two sheds and 2 acres. I didn't realize I have 8 targets, a few of them spread out around and a couple in the sheds and one in the garage for my 5 yard shooting. Lots of stuff going into storage until we can find a house we want to buy. We are moving 200 miles up northern AZ. Going to miss the mild winters here just north of Tucson where one can usually shoot outdoors January through March with perhaps only a long sleeve shirt much of the day. Moving to be closer to the grandkids now that their parents jobs have taken them up north. I do have to say, I feel great with the Scott Advantage Pro hinge and really feel comfortable with it now. Yes, my groups are shrinking be it slow but for sure and no more target panic which is why I went to it in the first place. A win win situation.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a high volume shooter and I just love every minute of shooting so for me having a variety of things to work on keeps things fun for me and those are just a few of the things that I do from time to time. I find that different shooting sessions keeps my shooting fresh and once I do them I actually look forward to shooting a scoring round so I can just relax and shoot the scoring round without training. 

When I first started shooting scoring rounds I hated it because I had so much stress attached to them that I made them simply a frustrating experience and now they are a joy to shoot.


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## Rex D (Mar 23, 2013)

never mind.. someone else already posted the link




erdman41 said:


> Well I wasted about a year trying to get it to work. Almost gave up on ever being very good at archery. Came close to falling for the line of BS that you either have it or you don't. I could shoot low 50x with the Larry Wise way. That was not where I wanted to be. Some are or would be happy with that level of shooting I wasn't.
> 
> Then came the Scott Seminar and a TruBall seminar and my eyes got opened up.
> 
> ...


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