# DIY Vertical Life Lines



## griz1955 (Dec 16, 2005)

looks good where did you get the store bought prusiks?


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## TxHunter73 (Dec 17, 2008)

man...those look good!!


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

griz1955 said:


> looks good where did you get the store bought prusiks?


http://www.rocknrescue.com/acatalog/PMI-Sewn-Prusik-Cord-Loops.html


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

man you should go into business...with the stands and sticks...plus these...


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## cjkozik (Jan 31, 2007)

That really is a nice set up. I'm a firefighter and have been involved in the Rescue business for some time now. I would make sure that the rope that you are indeed buying is not used rope, that they may have used for some type of Rescue training. Once we use a new rope for any type of life safety event, that particular rope gets moved to the training pile of ropes. These ropes can sometimes get abused pretty bad and I wouldn't use them for my own safety. Just a thought you might consider, fellow hunter looking out for a fellow hunter....


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## hoggin03 (Oct 24, 2005)

Very cool! Which legth of prusik do you find works best?


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

hoggin03 said:


> Very cool! Which legth of prusik do you find works best?



I use the 16" X 8mm sewn prussic loops on 10 or 11 mm rope.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

cjkozik said:


> That really is a nice set up. I'm a firefighter and have been involved in the Rescue business for some time now. I would make sure that the rope that you are indeed buying is not used rope, that they may have used for some type of Rescue training. Once we use a new rope for any type of life safety event, that particular rope gets moved to the training pile of ropes. These ropes can sometimes get abused pretty bad and I wouldn't use them for my own safety. Just a thought you might consider, fellow hunter looking out for a fellow hunter....


Appreciate it CJ! Safety is everything. These are most definitely brand new ropes that were sold as remnants from BlueWater Ropes. I guess climbing rope needs to be at least 100 feet long and at times they have shorter pieces. I picked up around 350 feet for $50 in 30-80 foot lengths. A steal!!!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

I "sewed" my prussic's by serving over the lose ends with 100# bowfishing line and then covered them with shrink tubing to keep them nice and neat.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Barehunter said:


> Appreciate it CJ! Safety is everything. These are most definitely brand new ropes that were sold as remnants from BlueWater Ropes. I guess climbing rope needs to be at least 100 feet long and at times they have shorter pieces. I picked up around 350 feet for $50 in 30-80 foot lengths. A steal!!!


Those locking caribiners probably cost more than your rope. I priced some at a Scheels Allsports, and I think they were like $21 each. Ended up ordering some from Ameristep.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I "sewed" my prussic's by serving over the lose ends with 100# bowfishing line and then covered them with shrink tubing to keep them nice and neat.



Great Idea! That is the reason I posted some of this stuff.....in hopes to learn some improvements! Would love to see a pic.


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## bn2hunt (Dec 31, 2007)

How hard is the prussic knots to tie? What knot did you use on the end that goes at the top of the tree? Is that just a chain add-a-link that you are using at the top?


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

bn2hunt said:


> How hard is the prussic knots to tie? What knot did you use on the end that goes at the top of the tree? Is that just a chain add-a-link that you are using at the top?


I just tie a figure-8 knot and leave about a 6" loop. Once the line is in the tree, there really isn't any threat of abrasion. Just pass the end of the line through the loop.


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## Bllade (Sep 13, 2008)

Couple of comments with safety in mind;
First, did you actualy "Sew" the two ends of a rope together make a Prusik? If so I highly reccomend that you throw them away. Do you have any idea of the amount of stress placed on the rope in the case of a fall? Unless you have a proven and tested way sewing the prusiks you are inviting disaster. 
Quick example; A 200# person falling 6' generates 1600lbs of force on the fall arrest system. Will your sewing hold up to that?

Second, Did you tie a figure 8 on a bight to form your prusik? Is so untie it and use the correct knot, a double fishermans, to make the prusik. You'll feel safer knowing that your knot is going to hold up in the case of a fall.

BTW, if anyoe is truly interested in knowing how much force they would generate in a fall post up your specs and I'd be glad to let you know.

Also, I know I've asked this question more than a few times but....
If you were to suffer a fall and be left hanging from your lifeline and harness, how would you get yourself out of the situation?


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Bllade said:


> Couple of comments with safety in mind;
> First, did you actualy "Sew" the two ends of a rope together make a Prusik? If so I highly reccomend that you throw them away. Do you have any idea of the amount of stress placed on the rope in the case of a fall? Unless you have a proven and tested way sewing the prusiks you are inviting disaster.
> Quick example; A 200# person falling 6' generates 1600lbs of force on the fall arrest system. Will your sewing hold up to that?
> 
> ...


I feel pretty confident that I could reach my ladder or climbing stcks.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

Bllade said:


> Couple of comments with safety in mind;
> First, did you actualy "Sew" the two ends of a rope together make a Prusik? If so I highly reccomend that you throw them away. Do you have any idea of the amount of stress placed on the rope in the case of a fall? Unless you have a proven and tested way sewing the prusiks you are inviting disaster.
> Quick example; A 200# person falling 6' generates 1600lbs of force on the fall arrest system. Will your sewing hold up to that?
> 
> ...


Assume these questions were for LiteSpeed. My sewn Prusiks are purchased from a climbing supply and are supposed to be even stronger than the double fisherman's knot. The ones that I tied myself were with double fishermans. I think Litespeed was simply serving the middle of a tied prusik to make a neater package but not sure.

It is amazing the force that a falling body generates. I try to keep my prusik above shoulder high at all times hopefully limiting any fall to a couple of feet. When in the stand I keep it pushed up to where it is slightly snug when sitting.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Barehunter said:


> Assume these questions were for LiteSpeed. My sewn Prusiks are purchased from a climbing supply and are supposed to be even stronger than the double fisherman's knot. The ones that I tied myself were with double fishermans. *I think Litespeed was simply serving the middle of a tied prusik to make a neater package but not sure*.
> 
> It is amazing the force that a falling body generates. I try to keep my prusik above shoulder high at all times hopefully limiting any fall to a couple of feet. When in the stand I keep it pushed up to where it is slightly snug when sitting.


This is correct, but I also run the needle through the rope approximately every 5 wraps or so. Maybe I need to forget about neatness and follow Bllade's advice about using the double fisherman's knot. Oh, I also try to keep the prussic at least shoulder high.


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## bn2hunt (Dec 31, 2007)

I am planning on using this only while climbing in and out of the stand. Never thought much of it, It's always the first thing I do when I climb in is get attached to the tree and the last thing I do before climbing down. This year during a late season hunt just after I unhooked from the tree my feet slipped out from underneath me. I caught the edge of the stand on the way by and got real lucky I didn't take the express elevator down. I figure with something like this I should be able to stay connected in some way at all times. You can never be to safe.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

This was the first year I ever used a life line getting in and out of the stand. Even with a ladderstand I can't believe how much more comfortable I feel being hooked up.


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## Bllade (Sep 13, 2008)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I feel pretty confident that I could reach my ladder or climbing stcks.


LiteSpeed, if you're using a ladder or climbing sticks you've got a really good shot at getting yourself back on them. Guys that use a climber will find it extremely difficult to perform a self rescue.



Barehunter said:


> Assume these questions were for LiteSpeed. My sewn Prusiks are purchased from a climbing supply and are supposed to be even stronger than the double fisherman's knot. The ones that I tied myself were with double fishermans. I think Litespeed was simply serving the middle of a tied prusik to make a neater package but not sure.
> 
> Barehunter; I'm very familiar with the sewn Prusiks available from RocknRescue and CMC and you're correct, they are well engineered and meet NFPA 1983 standards for Life Safety ropes. We do have several sets in our rescue gear but I prefer my own tied Prusiks for personal use.
> 
> It is amazing the force that a falling body generates. I try to keep my prusik above shoulder high at all times hopefully limiting any fall to a couple of feet. When in the stand I keep it pushed up to where it is slightly snug when sitting.


I adjust mine the same way. I prefer to use it as a "fall restraint" instead of a "fall arrest"



LiteSpeed1 said:


> This is correct, but I also run the needle through the rope approximately every 5 wraps or so. Maybe I need to forget about neatness and follow Bllade's advice about using the double fisherman's knot. Oh, I also try to keep the prussic at least shoulder high.


My own personal opinion is that I would never intentionally pierce or sever my lifeline or any component of it. Companies that make and sell the "sewn" prusiks have invested a lot of time into the proper technique and testing of their systems to ensure that they meet the standards.



bn2hunt said:


> I am planning on using this only while climbing in and out of the stand. Never thought much of it, It's always the first thing I do when I climb in is get attached to the tree and the last thing I do before climbing down. This year during a late season hunt just after I unhooked from the tree my feet slipped out from underneath me. I caught the edge of the stand on the way by and got real lucky I didn't take the express elevator down. I figure with something like this I should be able to stay connected in some way at all times. You can never be to safe.


I agree


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Bllade said:


> LiteSpeed, if you're using a ladder or climbing sticks you've got a really good shot at getting yourself back on them. Guys that use a climber will find it extremely difficult to perform a self rescue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, and will be switching to the double fisherman's knot.


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## Bllade (Sep 13, 2008)

Just a quick note for anyone that is interested,
I developed an Excel spreadsheet that we use in Technical Rope Rescue classes to illustrate the potential Impact force of a falling body. You can enter in three variables body weight, deceleration force and fall distance to calculate the impact loads. I'd post it up but I do not think I can post that file type. If anyone is interested in it I'd be willing to email it. It's interesting (to me at least) to calculate different fall criteria and see how it affects impact forces on the body.


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## youngoilguy (May 17, 2007)

i did the same but i bought the rope retail. black rope though.

silly to climb without one. total cost for 30' of rope per tree was $22 each. 

hss cost $30 or 39.99 if im not mistaken


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## WIbow (Nov 10, 2004)

Barehunter how much ya think you'd charge for a set up?


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

youngoilguy said:


> i did the same but i bought the rope retail. black rope though.
> 
> silly to climb without one. total cost for 30' of rope per tree was $22 each.
> 
> hss cost $30 or 39.99 if im not mistaken



Yeah...$39.99 for HSS. I don't KNOW this at all, have never held the HSS version in my hand, but have been led to believe that their rope is not the quality of rope that I used. Definitely don't want to misrepresent facts but have heard that their rope starts to fuzz up after a season. Otherwise, unless you can get remnants like I did you would not save money by making your own. You can expect to pay a dollar a foot for climbing rope, $6 for a prusik (unless you tie your own...which is easy enough to do) and maybe $8 for a good climbing grade carabiner. So for a 30 foot setup you are gonna have $45 or so invested. The secret is to find a rope company that will sell you remnants like I did and get rope for 13 cents a foot!

If you don't have a lot of stands even $45 is not too much to pay for the level of safety that you get from using these.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

Here http://www.rei.com/product/751911?c...-21E4-DD11-9B0F-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA

is an ad for 60 m of rope for $129. This is enough to do 6 setups...about $22 each plus prusik and carabiner.


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## Gurnbow (Dec 19, 2008)

*tying off*

thanks for the input from all. i switched to a safety vest and linesman belt this year. it's great for the initial climb and stand setting, but on return trips the sketchy part is getting into and out of the stand. have to undo the belt to get by. going in isn't too bad, hook up the tree strap to tether, undo the belt and climb aboard. but......... getting out you have to be able to hook the belt on one side with one hand. not easy! especially in the dark with cold weather gear on. i think what i will do is continue to use the belt for setting stands or taking them down but get enough of these lines to have one waiting at each set for return trips. dad gum i like this site! thanks.


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## oddg241 (Nov 26, 2004)

*for gurnbow*

Linemen on very tall poles use the 2 belt strap method. One is in use under treestand until you get 2nd one around above treestand. Always belted in that way.


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## Gurnbow (Dec 19, 2008)

*staying tied*

i can see where the two belt would work also. i wouldn't need a rope at each set, just one extra belt. also no rope dangling from all my stands advertising their location. hmmmmm, thanks


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

Barehunter said:


> Here http://www.rei.com/product/751911?c...-21E4-DD11-9B0F-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA
> 
> is an ad for 60 m of rope for $129. This is enough to do 6 setups...about $22 each plus prusik and carabiner.


thats climbing (dinamic) rope. maybe you would be better served if using static (rapelling) rope. and its cheaper too. i think rei has smaller ropes, so you dont have to buy the 60 meters.



LiteSpeed1 said:


> Those locking caribiners probably cost more than your rope. I priced some at a Scheels Allsports, and I think they were like $21 each. Ended up ordering some from Ameristep.


i get my climbing stuff at moosejaw.com you can get locking biners for less than $10, and non locking for $6 or $7

also, the greater the difference in diameters of the prussik loop against the main rope, the greater the hold will be. maybe the 8 mm vs 11 mm is not enough. try 7 mm with the 11mm rope, and the hold will be better, and its still safe. or put the 11 mm double, and then the 8 mm prussik loop will hold great.


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Mexican 3D said:


> thats climbing (dinamic) rope. maybe you would be better served if using static (rapelling) rope. and its cheaper too. i think rei has smaller ropes, so you dont have to buy the 60 meters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Locking caribiners are $5 each from Ameristep.


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Locking caribiners are $5 each from Ameristep.


do you have a link?? i looked for them on the webpage but couldnt find them.

thanx!!


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## LiteSpeed1 (May 21, 2005)

Mexican 3D said:


> do you have a link?? i looked for them on the webpage but couldnt find them.
> 
> thanx!!


They don't show them on the webpage under harnesses or accessories, but I called them and was told $5 each. Phone number is (810) 686-4035 x 3.


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

LiteSpeed1 said:


> They don't show them on the webpage under harnesses or accessories, but I called them and was told $5 each. Phone number is (810) 686-4035 x 3.


thanx, ill check them out when i need some biners again.


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## JPizzle (Sep 10, 2007)

I am going to make some of these up. I had planned to buy more of the HSS, bought one last year and loved it, but I would like the better quality for a cheaper price.

You also only need one caribeiner. I have one I keep on my harness and hook to the loop. This keeps the wind from clanking it on the stand, it isnt in the weather, and I dont have to buy alot of them.

Do I need the static or dynamic rope. I assume the dynamic would help give some on a fall.


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## JPizzle (Sep 10, 2007)

http://www.rei.com/product/767398
What about this rope. I was looking on their site, do I want they dry or non-dry. Maybe the dry protection would be better and last longer.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

JPizzle said:


> http://www.rei.com/product/767398
> What about this rope. I was looking on their site, do I want they dry or non-dry. Maybe the dry protection would be better and last longer.


The "ultimate" rope would be dry dynamic. Dry ropes should last longer in the field. Dynamic rope is designed to give so that the stop is not so sudden. People will argue both ways, but I feel that the static rope would be sufficient for the way I use it. First of all the HSS vest has a sewn in accordion deal that does the same kind of thing. Secondly, I try to keep my prusik knot at shoulder high or above to lessen distance of a potential fall. 

I have no experience to know how much longer the dry rope would last as compared to non-dry.


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

Here http://www.animatedknots.com/prusik...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

is a great website for those interested in learning to tie their own prusik loops. Shows the prusik and double fishermans knots. You want to make sure you get these right!!


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## TedBoezaart (Jun 5, 2006)

*Abseiling devices*

Have you guys thought of using a locking belay device (Petzl Gri-Gri, Locking Figure 8 or somthing similar) with a regular climbing harness? Don't see the need for any other prussiks, etc. This way you could just lower yourself down when you fall (the problem with most of these systems is that yes, they will stop you from hitting the ground, but then what?)

I have been climbing rock for many years, (and have taken quite a few whopper falls :embara: ) but have never been able to fall out of my climbing harness... 

I don't think the "dry" protected ropes would last any longer than regular dynamic rope, unless you plan on hunting in the rain a lot! Their application is more for ice climbing, or climbing where there is a lot of moisture around (at the coast, caves, etc.)

My 2c's worth...


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

TedBoezaart said:


> Have you guys thought of using a locking belay device (Petzl Gri-Gri, Locking Figure 8 or somthing similar) with a regular climbing harness? Don't see the need for any other prussiks, etc. This way you could just lower yourself down when you fall (the problem with most of these systems is that yes, they will stop you from hitting the ground, but then what?)
> 
> I have been climbing rock for many years, (and have taken quite a few whopper falls :embara: ) but have never been able to fall out of my climbing harness...
> 
> ...


Ted,
My ropes spend 4 months in the woods and are subject to lots of rain so I expect the dry rope would last longer.

As far as using the figure 8 etc it is probably from lack of familiarity on my part. Also figured there must be a reason why HSS used the prusik. Would like to know more about these other devices. With my system, the rope is attached by carbiner at the top and then tied around the tree at the bottom so that it stays tight to facilitate sliding the prusik upwards as you climb. 

Questions about the figure 8 or grigri. With this type of system, would you need one for each stand? If not, can you very quickly and easily attach it to the vertical rope without untying from the bottom of the tree? Does the rope need to be tied at the bottom? What is the expense? 

Many ask the question "now what?" when falling with my system. I use it only with climbing sticks and chainup stands. I am quite agile for my age and think it would not be a problem to reposition onto the ladder or if need be hug the tree and either loosen the prusik or cut it or whatever and shimmy down. Maybe I'm optimistic. At least I always have my cell phone and am never too far from help.


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

Barehunter said:


> Ted,
> My ropes spend 4 months in the woods and are subject to lots of rain so I expect the dry rope would last longer.
> 
> As far as using the figure 8 etc it is probably from lack of familiarity on my part. Also figured there must be a reason why HSS used the prusik. Would like to know more about these other devices. With my system, the rope is attached by carbiner at the top and then tied around the tree at the bottom so that it stays tight to facilitate sliding the prusik upwards as you climb.
> ...


i wouldnt recomend leaving your rope on the woods for 4 months straight. even though they are used for climbing outdoors, climbing ropes are not supposed to be left out for long periods of time. water and sun will harm them pretty quick, and then, they will not serve the purpose when you need them. of course a light rain or a day in the sun is nothing to the ropes, but 4 months is a lot. when i climb and it rains, i put my rope to dry (not in the sun) as soon as i get home.

and, i dont know of any locking figure 8. i dont think those even exist. of course you can have a figure 8 and lock it using the same climbing rope, but you wont be able to climb and slide it up the rope.

the grigri is a great option, but its expensive, about $70 if i remember correctly. its an autolocking device. you tie the rope to the top of the tree, and then attach the grigri to your harness. as you go up, you can take off the slack of rope. once you fall, the grigri will catch you automatically. and it has a lever you pull for it to gently lower you. 

both the figure 8 and the grigri go to your harness, and you can attach them at any point in the rope, no need to untie it on either end. and you do not need to tie the rope at the bottom of the tree. its faster to attach a figre 8 or a grigri, than it is to tie the prussik knot. but, for your application, the prussik or autoblock is better than any of those systems.

good luck!!


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## JPizzle (Sep 10, 2007)

I dont know how you wouldnt leave these ropes in the woods for 4 months. The idea is they are there while the stand is in the tree. Walk up and use it. I will keep looking.


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## TedBoezaart (Jun 5, 2006)

Mexican 3D said:


> ad, i dont know of any locking figure 8.


You're right - i made a typo - I meant to lock down a figure 8. fairly easy, but you can't have the bottom of the rope tied in then.

I agree with Mexican - I wouldn't leave any rope on a tree for 4 months that I want to trust my life to... The ropes deteriorate pretty quickly if they are left out - UV is the main killer, but rain isn't very good for it either.

The system you have set up is very easy to move/slide up a tree as you climb - why don't you just slide it up as you climb? Or am I missing something?:noidea:


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## Bllade (Sep 13, 2008)

Mexican 3D said:


> i wouldnt recomend leaving your rope on the woods for 4 months straight. even though they are used for climbing outdoors, climbing ropes are not supposed to be left out for long periods of time. water and sun will harm them pretty quick, and then, they will not serve the purpose when you need them. of course a light rain or a day in the sun is nothing to the ropes, but 4 months is a lot. when i climb and it rains, i put my rope to dry (not in the sun) as soon as i get home.
> 
> and, i dont know of any locking figure 8. i dont think those even exist. of course you can have a figure 8 and lock it using the same climbing rope, but you wont be able to climb and slide it up the rope.
> 
> ...


Couple of things; First the grigri, like all other mechanical descenders does not "gently lower you down". This device, like others has a lever to release the lock after a fall but if you have not secured yourself it will lock again immediately once it senses inertia. Also this like other mechanical devices work on the same principle as a figure 8, you have to manually control the rope as it slides through the device to control a descent. Better devices for this would be 540 belay or a Rescue MPD, but at $350-$500 not many people would want to purchase one.

Another thing to consider, which no one seems to want to is where these devices attach to your harness. Harnesses such as the HSS have attachment points on the back, usually above shoulder level. These harnesses are designed to arrest a fall and are not conducive to either "self rescue' or "belaying". On most of the systems that I have tried once suspended, the attachment point of the harness to the main line is usually via a lanyard of some type. In the event of a fall the attachment point whether it is a Prusik or any other means will most likely be too far away for a person to reach and in the case of a Prusik even if you could reach it unless you can get the load off of it there is no way you are going to release the Prusik. The only exception to this is in the case of those that use ladders or climbing sticks and are able to get back on a step. But even then it is difficult to perform if you need to hang onto something with one hand and try to release the prusik with the other. So unless you are in great shape a climber or a monkey chances are you will be left hanging from your tree.

No matter what you do if you do not take the time to practice emergency procedures when the moment of truth arrives you will most likely exhaust yourself trying to get free and risk further injury (or worse) from exposure or Orthostatic Intolerance (suspension trauma).

One last note on Suspension trauma. Most modern safety harnesses used by hunters offer little to no protection to this condition. It's the way the harnesses are designed. If you are suspended without any movement of your lower extremities ST can begin in as little as 3 minutes with the average being 5-20 minutes. Death can occur in as little as 10 minutes.

Ok, sorry I know I got way off track from the original intent of this thread but hopefully you find the information usefull.


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## grady3 (Nov 20, 2006)

*Prussics*



Bllade said:


> Couple of comments with safety in mind;
> First, did you actualy "Sew" the two ends of a rope together make a Prusik? If so I highly reccomend that you throw them away. Do you have any idea of the amount of stress placed on the rope in the case of a fall? Unless you have a proven and tested way sewing the prusiks you are inviting disaster.
> Quick example; A 200# person falling 6' generates 1600lbs of force on the fall arrest system. Will your sewing hold up to that?
> 
> ...


I have made a few of these myself based on the HSS units. New rope, way over rated, but safe. Regarding the prussics, I tied my tag ends up, did not sow them, but I put a few hog rings in the knots to guarantee that they will not come untied.


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

Bllade said:


> Couple of things; First the grigri, like all other mechanical descenders does not "gently lower you down". This device, like others has a lever to release the lock after a fall but if you have not secured yourself it will lock again immediately once it senses inertia. Also this like other mechanical devices work on the same principle as a figure 8, you have to manually control the rope as it slides through the device to control a descent. Better devices for this would be 540 belay or a Rescue MPD, but at $350-$500 not many people would want to purchase one.
> 
> Another thing to consider, which no one seems to want to is where these devices attach to your harness. Harnesses such as the HSS have attachment points on the back, usually above shoulder level. These harnesses are designed to arrest a fall and are not conducive to either "self rescue' or "belaying". On most of the systems that I have tried once suspended, the attachment point of the harness to the main line is usually via a lanyard of some type. In the event of a fall the attachment point whether it is a Prusik or any other means will most likely be too far away for a person to reach and in the case of a Prusik even if you could reach it unless you can get the load off of it there is no way you are going to release the Prusik. The only exception to this is in the case of those that use ladders or climbing sticks and are able to get back on a step. But even then it is difficult to perform if you need to hang onto something with one hand and try to release the prusik with the other. So unless you are in great shape a climber or a monkey chances are you will be left hanging from your tree.
> 
> ...



have you used the grigri?? i have, i belay almost daily using one (climbing gym) and have made a couple rappels with it. and, with practice, you can get a gentle ride down. but, as you mention, you need both hands. the left hand will pull the lever, and the right hand will grab the rope and let it slide. if you just pull the lever without holding the rope, you will have a free fall. this sentence *This device, like others has a lever to release the lock after a fall but if you have not secured yourself it will lock again immediately once it senses inertia* is false. if you pull a little bit, the cam will still press the rope giving it some friction. with that and your other hand, you will be lowered smoothly and slowly. but if you just pull the lever all the way down, the cam wont press the rope, so it will let you fall. theres another device, called ID i believe, that has a safety feature. if you pull the lever slightly, it will release the rope. but if you pull it all the way down, it will lock itself preventing you to fall. the grigri does not does that. 

regarding harnesses, i cant tell, i have not used a safety harness, only climbing harnesses. 

good luck!!


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## Bllade (Sep 13, 2008)

Mexican 3D said:


> have you used the grigri?? i have, i belay almost daily using one (climbing gym) and have made a couple rappels with it. and, with practice, you can get a gentle ride down. but, as you mention, you need both hands. the left hand will pull the lever, and the right hand will grab the rope and let it slide. if you just pull the lever without holding the rope, you will have a free fall. this sentence *This device, like others has a lever to release the lock after a fall but if you have not secured yourself it will lock again immediately once it senses inertia* is false. if you pull a little bit, the cam will still press the rope giving it some friction. with that and your other hand, you will be lowered smoothly and slowly. but if you just pull the lever all the way down, the cam wont press the rope, so it will let you fall. theres another device, called ID i believe, that has a safety feature. if you pull the lever slightly, it will release the rope. but if you pull it all the way down, it will lock itself preventing you to fall. the grigri does not does that.
> 
> regarding harnesses, i cant tell, i have not used a safety harness, only climbing harnesses.
> 
> good luck!!


Ok, you have used one almost daily in a climbing gym. I would consider that a very controlled condition, not much pressure there. Have you ever had an unintentional free fall with it? How does it react in that circumstance? I admit I've only used one once and that was many years ago and that one had two options lock and unlock and to belay you needed to unlock the device and control your descent with the rope. I do not fully understand why you would need two hands though if the lever will control your descent.

As far as harnesses a climbing harness is fine, if you are experienced with one. For someone that is inexperienced a climbing harness could prove to be fatal since you could potentially end up inverted. Not a good position for an inexperienced person to end up in an emergency.

The bottom line is that no matter what you use, unless you have practiced with it and are comfortable with how it all works when the moment of truth is at hand most people are not gong to react very well.
I know this from experience since most of the time when I am at the end of a rope it is usually rescuing some hunter from a tree, hiker or climber over an edge or victims in a car crash over a cliff or down an embankment.


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## TedBoezaart (Jun 5, 2006)

*Huh?*



Bllade said:


> Ok, you have used one almost daily in a climbing gym. I would consider that a very controlled condition, not much pressure there. Have you ever had an unintentional free fall with it? How does it react in that circumstance? I admit I've only used one once and that was many years ago and that one had two options lock and unlock and to belay you needed to unlock the device and control your descent with the rope. I do not fully understand why you would need two hands though if the lever will control your descent.
> 
> As far as harnesses a climbing harness is fine, if you are experienced with one. For someone that is inexperienced a climbing harness could prove to be fatal since you could potentially end up inverted. Not a good position for an inexperienced person to end up in an emergency.
> 
> ...


I don't see using it in a climbing gym as "a very controlled conditions" - that's where I've had some of my worst falls, because I'll be trying new/more difficult things... Also, not sure what device you were using way back when, but the Gri-Gri has not changed much in design for at least the last 10 to 15 years, and it has always had the lever to lower yourself down on slowly. I have take some bad falls with it (the worst being over 100' into thin air while climbing a very overhanging route), and it stopped me just fine. The let down was very smooth... I have also used it to rappell down over 1000' - no issues at all (actually more comfortable than my figure 8). You need 2 hands though - one to pull on th elevel and control your descent, the second to feed the rope throug it (sometimes the rope gets a bit twisted while you abseil). Either way, this is getting way off topic, and probably better suited to the rockclimbing.com forum... 

I agree that no matter what you use you need to practice with it and get familiar with it, and be able to let yourself down after your fall has been arrested. For me, the climbing harness and a belay device works the best, because that is what I'm familiar with. Scary stuff about the hunting harnesses...


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## Barehunter (Feb 10, 2007)

Appreciate all the safety advice from each. I understand that leaving the ropes in the trees for the entire season is probably not the best thing for them and it has been my plan all along to replace them from time to time. Hard to say when they are no longer up to the task of course. Someone mentioned just sliding it up the tree ahead of you...doesn't work with climbing sticks etc and how would you get it over the stand? 

One thing I do to facilitate getting out of a bind should I fall is carry a regular tied (not sewn) prussik with in the pocket of my climbing vest. I feel like I could tie this onto the rope and get a foot in it to take the pressure off....should give you some options. 

My take is this. I've climbed for 35 years with no safety device without an incident (Knocking on wood) and definitely feel safer with the life line than without. Just feel like it's gotta be better than nothing.


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## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

Bllade said:


> Ok, you have used one almost daily in a climbing gym. I would consider that a very controlled condition, not much pressure there. Have you ever had an unintentional free fall with it? How does it react in that circumstance? I admit I've only used one once and that was many years ago and that one had two options lock and unlock and to belay you needed to unlock the device and control your descent with the rope. I do not fully understand why you would need two hands though if the lever will control your descent.
> 
> As far as harnesses a climbing harness is fine, if you are experienced with one. For someone that is inexperienced a climbing harness could prove to be fatal since you could potentially end up inverted. Not a good position for an inexperienced person to end up in an emergency.
> 
> ...


well, the grigri is not designed for the user to take falls on it. its a belay device, so it takes sudden, unexpected falls from the climber, while the belayer is wearing the grigri. and yes, i have catched several of those falls (both indoors and out) while belaying for my climbing partner. the grigri locks itself automatically, stopping the climber's fall. and then, the belayer will lower him. you need both hands to operate it, because the lever can be pulled all the way down, and in that case, the rope will be completely free. with some practice, you coordinate both the lever hand and the brake hand to share the load. you lower the lever, but have more control with the brake hand as in a regular ATC or figure 8. 

good luck!!


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## Bllade (Sep 13, 2008)

If you are going to carry a Prusik to gain a foot hold be sure to make it long enough to get your foot into it. If it is too short you may not be able to get it low enough. It depends on how far down you can reach while suspended as well as how far up you can bend your knee to get your foot into the stirrup. Also the loop is most llikely not going to cooperate by staying still or open to make getting your foot into it easy. Again the best advice I can offer is PRACTICE with what you are going to use.
I have a special type of prusik called a Purcell that I use when on rescue assignments. The purcell enables you to tighten the loop onto your foot and prevent it from slipping out. But if I were to use a standard Prusik it would need to be at least 5' long for me to use it. But I am old and not too flexible these days.


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## jorjo (Jan 27, 2009)

Bllade said:


> No matter what you do if you do not take the time to practice emergency procedures when the moment of truth arrives you will most likely exhaust yourself trying to get free and risk further injury (or worse) from exposure or Orthostatic Intolerance (suspension trauma).
> 
> One last note on Suspension trauma. Most modern safety harnesses used by hunters offer little to no protection to this condition. It's the way the harnesses are designed. If you are suspended without any movement of your lower extremities ST can begin in as little as 3 minutes with the average being 5-20 minutes. Death can occur in as little as 10 minutes.
> 
> Ok, sorry I know I got way off track from the original intent of this thread but hopefully you find the information usefull.


Suspension trauma is not widely understood. The first time I heard of it was 15 years ago, I found it hard to believe. The way it was told to me back then was "you got Fifteen mins on a good day. Sixteen minutes is a dead man" 
A few years back, I was on the ground when pal fell and snagged (pro rigger on a major concert) 30' up over a stage full of road crew and kit. I think I was probably the only other person there who grasped the significance of the problem. Getting a cherry picker in under him and people and kit clear to do so was an serious exercise in abuse, brutality and determination. I commandeered the cherrypicker by yelling up at the guys already using it who thought it was all kinda funny and eventually having to literally climb it and get into it to get them to take me seriously, it then took a while to get everyone else to realize the need to move equipment fast to clear away in across the stage they'd spent all day arranging . Ramming stuff out of the way kinda got them moving on it though and even then, it seemed to take forever. I got that cherry picker under him in around eleven minutes and he was not in good shape. 17 stone built like a tank swinging helpless in a safety harness is a comical sight. Not so funny when the words "16 minutes is a dead man swinging" are running through you mind.

Strangly enough, his thoughts where exactly the same as yours on the subject. 
As Far as he was concerned he'd screwed up badly from a bad judgment call to clip off to an equipment safety line that resulted in ending up with him starting his hang time badly winded and sore from the fall.
Just as you said, he also felt that a rig that would slow the fall to easily survivable indignity would have been the wiser option.

Cheers for posting the info. I guess the idea of a safety line seems like a complete solution rather than being a 15min delay between cause and effect for the same fall. I can think of a few options. Even a knife and a choice to pick a landing spot would be better than just hanging helplessly, but I suspect that the proper course of action is less complex.

Could it perhaps be as simple as asking someone like yourself for the benefit of their experience and avoid being in that situation as a result of the answers?

If so.. I'll ask 
Assuming that spending time up a tree is a given.
Whats the rescuers wisdom to avoid becoming a splatter mark at the base of it or a lifeless dangling thing hanging off of it ?


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