# 43rd US Indoor and 2012 JOAD National Indoor - unofficial results thread



## Broken X (Sep 9, 2002)

Hello archers,

We will sort the Seattle event by division, gender and class and will get the link up asap!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Broken X said:


> Hello archers,
> 
> We will sort the Seattle event by division, gender and class and will get the link up asap!


Hehe...I didn't even notice that! I just copied the links from your original post. 

Thanks for putting up the scores!
-Steve


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

The Andover results are from Saturday. I'll check with tonight and see when he'll send in the final numbers.


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## Broken X (Sep 9, 2002)

*43rd US Indoor and 2012 JOAD National Indoor - unofficial results SEATTLE*

Here are the unofficial results from Mountlake Terrace WA. We had a great time hosting our 1st USAA Indoor National event and are looking forward to doing it again next year!


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

up do date at Andover MA site: 
http://www.massarchery.org/page16.html main site: http://www.massarchery.org/index.html


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

USA Archery has posted the unofficial results of what has been posted on this page. 

http://usarchery.org/news/2012/03/0...nships-preliminary-unofficial-standings/46932


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## Broken X (Sep 9, 2002)

*Link to Seattle Nationals picture galleries - Thank you Brady!*

The Nock Point and Next Step Archery also want to sincerely thank *Mr. Brady Ellison and family* for the surprise visit and participation! Brady is a True Professional and was wonderfully patient with ALL of the archers, espesially with the youth! For many of the young local archers who participated, this was their very 1st National Championship! Combine the "pressure" of that with perhaps being on the same line as Brady... on an Olympic year??! WOW! What a great experience it was for so many of us ALL on sooo many levels. Not once did Brady ever hesitate to answer questions, sign autographs and/or take countless photographs from anyone who asked, at anytime! 

Click here http://www.thenockpoint.com/?page_id=2109 to see 3 galleries of pictures and updated unofficial results of The Nock Points 1st ever USAA Indoor Nationals. We learned so much from this event, had a wonderful time and plan to do an even better job next year!

Thank you everyone who participated and help make this event an experience of a lifetime!!!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

MSU Demmer scores - unsorted and unofficial

http://demmercenter.msu.edu/uploads/files/MSU Indoor Nationals Scores.xls

-Steve


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

The USA Archery website is aggregating/merging the results from the regions on the right side of the home page. It was last updated on 3/1, but it should be faster than before (a friend helped with software that would facilitate this automatically rather than with manual re-entry). 
http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/do...12_Indoor_National_JOAD_Indoor_UNOFFICIAL.pdf


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## bows'n'roses (Jun 5, 2007)

ttt


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The way this tournament is currently conducted, it takes a month to accurately compile scores and announce winners. There is no sizzle at all!! Most will be focusing on NFAA Nationals in Louisville, or their outdoor tournaments. NAA Indoor Nationals ends with a thud. 

How about 4 venues. 1 in each the North, South, East and West. Hold it all in one weekend, take a few days to verify the scores and celebrate the accomplishments of the archers. 
Let's get some snap, crackle and pop in this event!


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## TxMom (Feb 23, 2009)

Here is a link to the Texas Results, which were available 24 hours after the tournament:

http://www.tamuarchery.com/indoor nationals/Results.html

IF ALL venues would post their unofficial results after their tournaments, it would not be a big deal....but for I am sure different reasons they do not provide.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I was told by another event organizer that people in their region know what they shot, they aren't technologically advanced as other regions, and that people will find out when the final results are posted by USA Archery.

Unfortunately, this is 2012. There is an expectation to have the results posted in a decent timeframe. This region is one of the first ones out of the chute and they still haven't posted scores to USA Archery. 

Anyhow, the most ideal scenario is to have ALL regions shoot on the same weekend. Compile the scores. Post 'em. Otherwise, this ends up being an expensive mail in tournament.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> The way this tournament is currently conducted, it takes a month to accurately compile scores and announce winners. There is no sizzle at all!! Most will be focusing on NFAA Nationals in Louisville, or their outdoor tournaments. NAA Indoor Nationals ends with a thud.
> 
> How about 4 venues. 1 in each the North, South, East and West. Hold it all in one weekend, take a few days to verify the scores and celebrate the accomplishments of the archers.
> Let's get some snap, crackle and pop in this event!



disagree-I think there should be MORE venues so driving-in often a difficult time of the year-is minimized


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> I was told by another event organizer that people in their region know what they shot, they aren't technologically advanced as other regions, and that people will find out when the final results are posted by USA Archery.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is 2012. There is an expectation to have the results posted in a decent timeframe. This region is one of the first ones out of the chute and they still haven't posted scores to USA Archery.
> 
> Anyhow, the most ideal scenario is to have ALL regions shoot on the same weekend. Compile the scores. Post 'em. Otherwise, this ends up being an expensive mail in tournament.


One venue apparently does not want to post their scores until all the venues have shot for some idiotic reason(s)

however, having all venues shoot on the same weekend makes some sense though having two different weekends does increase participation


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Jim C said:


> disagree-I think there should be MORE venues so driving-in often a difficult time of the year-is minimized


I agree. Each region needs more venues. However, I don't know the budgets allotted by USA Archery for judges.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

well they assigned FOUR judges to a venue they knew would not have more than 10 target bales. One of the four judges (a family of three plus me) took ill and didn't show up. While it was great having three judges we only really needed two. I believe the rules require one per ten target bales but you need at least two so one can take restroom breaks etc.

The tournament is essentially a mail in anyway nationally. We gave trophies to the JOAD kids Norm Graham of MSU has always (as long as I can remember) did the same for his venue. At one time, the North Region (which still has its own very well run outdoor tournament and a field tournament) used to give Regional awards-sadly discontinued. 

The problem is that the conditions are not the same at each venue. A couple years ago, my son did not finish his JOAD shoot-which was scheduled for 6PM until after midnight because there were too many people put on the line and a massive wreck shut down the main road to the venue and people who had reserved spots showed up late and walk ons were accepted leading to THREE lines both for the 6PM friday JOAD line and the 9AM Saturday JOAD Line (IIRC). those kids were at a disadvantage-shooting well past their normal bedtime-compared to kids at other venues who only took say 2.5 hours or so to shoot their sixty arrows.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed. 



Jim C said:


> well they assigned FOUR judges to a venue they knew would not have more than 10 target bales. One of the four judges (a family of three plus me) took ill and didn't show up. While it was great having three judges we only really needed two. I believe the rules require one per ten target bales but you need at least two so one can take restroom breaks etc.


At Rio Rancho for the past two years, we've had three judges - a dedicated DOS/COJ, and two line judges for 15 bales. 



> The tournament is essentially a mail in anyway nationally. We gave trophies to the JOAD kids Norm Graham of MSU has always (as long as I can remember) did the same for his venue. At one time, the North Region (which still has its own very well run outdoor tournament and a field tournament) used to give Regional awards-sadly discontinued.


The Harvey's at Rio Rancho still give out awards. It's important for the JOAD's to be recognized. I don't think Tulare does. 



> The problem is that the conditions are not the same at each venue. A couple years ago, my son did not finish his JOAD shoot-which was scheduled for 6PM until after midnight because there were too many people put on the line and a massive wreck shut down the main road to the venue and people who had reserved spots showed up late and walk ons were accepted leading to THREE lines both for the 6PM friday JOAD line and the 9AM Saturday JOAD Line (IIRC). those kids were at a disadvantage-shooting well past their normal bedtime-compared to kids at other venues who only took say 2.5 hours or so to shoot their sixty arrows.


Rio Rancho had so many JOAD entries that they split it between Friday night and Saturday morning. My son Spencer shot Saturday morning for JOAD, Saturday afternoon for his first 600, and Sunday afternoon for his second 600. So I can understand the oddities of scheduling.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

" was told by another event organizer that people in their region know what they shot, they aren't technologically advanced as other regions, and that people will find out when the final results are posted by USA Archery."

Why can't/wouldn't USA HQ provide uniform software technology to all venues to enable online results posting, and then require that venues post unofficial results within 48 hours of competition completion?
That would take care of the 'not technologically proficient' tack, and also the dissipation of interest because of 'time lags between shooting and posting results' that Gabe speaks of (with whom I agree that the ho-hum dribbling out of info contributes to a kind of "air oozing out of a souffle" anti climax). 

And what would be the reason for a region to want to be the last region to report results? What difference does it make?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Jim C said:


> disagree-I think there should be MORE venues so driving-in often a difficult time of the year-is minimized


Reductio ad absurdum. 

Let's take this to the absurd and assume any club with a timer could be a venue. It would be really convenient. It would also be very boring. After a year, no one would want to participate. Our club had an experience like this a few years ago. Our JOAD kids (about 10) went north and ended up in a field of about 12 for JOAD Indoor Nationals. You could see the disappointment in the kids faces as this was nothing more than a club shoot at a different location.

Let's go the other way. 1 location for Indoor Nationals would be really inconvenient, expensive for some and exciting as it gets! Shooting lines with 300 archers create a buzz. All archers could enjoy the atmosphere, camaraderie and the excitement of a major event. The tournament may suffer from lower attendance initially, but I'll bet it would gain traction. Vendors would want to be there. People would go out of their way to put it on the calendar. Heck, you may even get a Vegas like vibe!

So 4 venues, some inconvenience and a healthy crowd, seems to me to be a nice compromise. Scores would get posted in a more timely manner and the archers who shot really well could be recognized for what they did, instead of it being an 'oh by the way' moment a month down the road.

Waiting a month for completion of a tournament is, well, I'll bite my tongue here, but it isn't right.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

midwayarcherywi said:


> How about 4 venues. 1 in each the North, South, East and West.


That would be really nice for the folks within a day's driving distance of the selected locations, but consider those people who might have to spend an entire day driving to/from each way. That turns the thing into a four-day event for them rather than 2. Not a lot of people who can get time off from work for a sporting event. Considering how often peope on here are discussing how the EXPAND the sport, that suggestion seems like it would be rather counterproductive. I think participation would decrease significantly.

I agree with the idea to find a way to simplify the process - but I think that could (and probably should) still be accomplished while expanding the number of venues.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed



lksseven said:


> Why can't/wouldn't USA HQ provide uniform software technology to all venues to enable online results posting, and then require that venues post unofficial results within 48 hours of competition completion?
> That would take care of the 'not technologically proficient' tack, and also the dissipation of interest because of 'time lags between shooting and posting results' that Gabe speaks of (with whom I agree that the ho-hum dribbling out of info contributes to a kind of "air oozing out of a souffle" anti climax).


There is supposedly a standardized spreadsheet format that every region is supposed to use. Then they import it into the master tabulation form. 



> And what would be the reason for a region to want to be the last region to report results? What difference does it make?


I still cannot see how one can justify that. I do know of some apocrypha where archers that were planning on shooting a later region ended up canceling because some archer in another region blew out the score.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Otherwise, this ends up being an expensive mail in tournament


It's both an "expensive mail in tournament" and the cheapest national championship event (when you consider travel and lodging) you can shoot, all at the same time! 

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Reductio ad absurdum.
> 
> Let's take this to the absurd and assume any club with a timer could be a venue. It would be really convenient. It would also be very boring. After a year, no one would want to participate. Our club had an experience like this a few years ago. Our JOAD kids (about 10) went north and ended up in a field of about 12 for JOAD Indoor Nationals. You could see the disappointment in the kids faces as this was nothing more than a club shoot at a different location.
> 
> ...


you are trying to create a solution for a non-existent problem. 

and I believe there should be a venue within a 4 hour drive of most of the membership in the region. 

there is absolutely no disadvantage to having more venues and there are many disadvantages to having only 4 venues.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> It's both an "expensive mail in tournament" and the cheapest national championship event (when you consider travel and lodging) you can shoot, all at the same time!
> 
> John


Very true!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Beastmaster said:


> Interspersed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you are right about the standardized sheets

as to "blowing scores out" realistically, especially among the adults, there are only about 4-6 people in the major events that are going to contend. Cousins and Reo for example have the top two scores turned in so far. So why would a REALLY good archer but who is not quite that level compete? maybe to shoot a PB. I watched a guy who was a few millimeters away from setting the world FITA Indoor compound record the other day. Yet he probably won't finish in the top 5 based on some of the other scores. 

In fact why do 1250 FITA senior men enter the US outdoor nationals? 

obviously they know they aren't going to be on the podium with Brady, Jake, Vic, Joe, Butch, Peter, Daniel and the other few contenders.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I'd like to see in the next 5 years all scoring in realtime with portable devices as the larger majority have smartphones and that number will just keep climbing. For events such as regional indoors, Google docs would be a fantastic alternative for compilation scoring of unofficial results.


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

In todays information world it would seem if the complaint is scores and information, the number of venues does not matter. A program that internet links the shooters and scores togather for real time scores and summaries within hours should not be a problem if at the national level those tools are provided by standardizing the systems, could be an interesting challenge to some of the members who have the tech knowledge to solve such a problem. Gar.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> So why would a REALLY good archer but who is not quite that level compete? maybe to shoot a PB.


Yup. That's about it. Or as part of a training program. I've found that the only way to truly test equipment and yourself is in competition. Everything shoots okay in practice. 

I chose not to shoot indoor nationals this year because that's $100 I can spend on something else, and I've already switched over to outdoors. 

It always seems strange to see folks walking in and out of the Texas A&M archery facility for indoor nationals while wearing shorts and T-shirts...

Sorry Jim, but it was 80 degrees and sunshine here the other day 

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The unofficial master results from USA Archery has been updated as of today.

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/do...ults_Indoor_National_Results_Program_V2.1.pdf


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm sure that of the 1250 FITA shooters (most of them anyway), the intellectual part of their brain would acknowledge that they most likely aren't going to be on the podium; but I'll bet the 'competitor' part of their brain is thinking 'I believe I can shoot my way onto that platform THIS TIME', if I shoot every arrow to my max skill limit'. I always believe I can win THIS TIME, but I'm not totally delusional - I have fall back/contingency goals (#1: win, if not then fall back to #2: podium finish, if not then fall back to #3: shoot better than last time, if not then fall back to #4: be first in my target butt group, if not then fall back to #5: finish strong, if not then fall back to #6: try to hit the paper every time, if not then fall back to #7: try to remember how to hold the bow and nock the arrow, if not then fall back to #8: try to sneak out without anyone recognizing me.
(disclaimer: I've never had to fall all the way back to #8 ... yet).

One shooter was wearing shorts and cowboy boots (which probably provided a solid foot platform for him, but no one would have called it 'an athletic look'), which made me giggle considering the long discussions here about what's allowed and what's not allowed on the NAA shooting line with regards to clothing and footwear.


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Jim C said:


> you are trying to create a solution for a non-existent problem.
> 
> and I believe there should be a venue within a 4 hour drive of most of the membership in the region.
> 
> there is absolutely no disadvantage to having more venues and there are many disadvantages to having only 4 venues.


Out of the 4 venues, I have to fly to a major airport nearby and then drive an hour to get there. Most of us are not professional, we just do it as a hobby. Taking 4 days to attend a tournament is too much. 4 hours driving distance sounds reasonable. How about a National Tournament in every states (if feasible) on the same weekend? So people can compete a national event locally and know the result within a day.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

By this logic, why not have your state organization mail in your state championship results and call it done? I'd love to compete in all USAT tournaments, but due to time, money and distance, it's simply not feasible and I make the best of my hobby that I can. I don't ask them to have all of them in the mid-west to accommodate me. Why do I not hear the same logic for Outdoor Nationals?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Matt Z said:


> By this logic, why not have your state organization mail in your state championship results and call it done? I'd love to compete in all USAT tournaments, but due to time, money and distance, it's simply not feasible and I make the best of my hobby that I can. I don't ask them to have all of them in the mid-west to accommodate me. Why do I not hear the same logic for Outdoor Nationals?



This is my point exactly. If you have a National tournament, make it a national tournament in all respects.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> By this logic, why not have your state organization mail in your state championship results and call it done?


I'd be fine with that. Shot my PB scores at our state indoor in Austin, and it only cost me $30 to register!  That score would have me in 3rd nationally at the moment...

Call me cheap, but I just am not interested in spending $100 or more to shoot an indoor event. That's $100 I can spend on targets for our JOAD club or a bow for a young archer. I don't care if it is "Nationals." The amount I paid for my daughter to compete in "JOAD Indoor Nationals" borders on highway robbery. It's no wonder 3-D events are so popular these days.

And don't preach to me about the costs of running an event. Been there, done that, and sent the check to the mother ship in Co. Springs... The venue we shoot is also a dedicated archery range, so it's not like some JOAD club had to rent a facility and borrow targets, etc. I'm sure many of the venues are the same way, although I know some are not.

For the longest time, I've thought that a "National Championship" should be attended by representatives from different states or regions of the country. Each state or region gets to send 1 or 2 "representatives" that earn their way to the event. This is how they conduct the annual Senior Games, and there is pride and distinction in representing your state. You have to earn that right. If the state organizations would hold a tournament to select representatives, then help sponsor those archers to attend a true National Championship event, the it would be a lot more interesting IMO.

John


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

I completely agree with John on this. Both National Senior Games and National States Games use the same qualification requirement. Top three finishers on each State event qualified for National next year. If anyone and every one can shoot at the National Games, the National Game does not have any meaning. It is not the quantity of competitors but quality of competitor matter.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Jim C said:


> you are trying to create a solution for a non-existent problem.
> 
> and I believe there should be a venue within a 4 hour drive of most of the membership in the region.
> 
> there is absolutely no disadvantage to having more venues and there are many disadvantages to having only 4 venues.


I'd like to think I'm addressing an emerging problem. Not many people think Indoor Nationals is an aspirational event. Vegas is becoming that for many adults and kids too, I may add. Vegas is big, bawdy and exciting. The best shooters are all there. The event is vibrant and expanding. It is national in scope. 

Make Indoor Nationals something special. Please! (Remember Cobo Hall?)


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Deviating from my own thread here:

1) State Games of America does utilize the regional winner moves on concept. One of my students won his segment of the Grand Canyon State Games, and then went on to win at the State Games of America. One of the flaws in it is that you can technically win a State Game that isn't your home state, then move on to compete on the national stage.

2) I recently ran the Arizona Senior Olympics National Qualifier tournament as a COJ/DOS. We had 72 archers from as far away as Canada, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado show up to gain a spot for the Senior Olympics. Arizona archer Randy Spray missed tying the national Senior Olympics record by one point. 

So, there is merit in having your "state" champions move onward and upward. Is it practical? That's up in the air.

-Steve


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I'd like to think I'm addressing an emerging problem.


While that might be an emerging problem, another one might be the lack of competition opportunities for a lot of us out here in the archery boondocks. For example, I'm heading out to the Indoor Nationals this weekend, not because I hope to win, but because for me, in this calendar year, it is the ONLY tournament which is within an 8 hour drive from where I live. My nearest venue is 4 hours from home for me. And later this summer I probably will make those 8-hour drives to NJ and PA to do the outdoor shoots, but not a whole lot of other people around here would. So, to all the parents I'm trying to recruit into helping start up a JOAD, what do I say when they ask "why?" There's nowhere for their kids to go compete.

This is why I think the idea of consolidating to 4 venues is counterproductive. I see your logic, and I think it's a great idea -- IF it's offset by offering more lower-level tournaments across the calendar. Perhaps I'm just debating a whole different topic. But my reasoning for not condensing the venues would be that at least it's one more opportunity for folks in a sport where the opportunities are already far more limited than we'd like.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

It's money. Limit the entrants and revenue slides. State organizations are not equal. Some are active and some are non existent. I don't think having an open registration hurts a national event.


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

midwayarcherywi said:


> It's money. Limit the entrants and revenue slides. State organizations are not equal. Some are active and some are non existent. I don't think having an open registration hurts a national event.


If you take top 2 shooters out from each states, you will have a max of 100 shooters per event - that should generate good revenue. If you take top 3, you will have 150 shooters. Open registration reduce the importance of the tournament to just another tournament (NOT a NATIONAL tournament). If you want to go to National you have to earn it.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I'd like to think I'm addressing an emerging problem. Not many people think Indoor Nationals is an aspirational event. Vegas is becoming that for many adults and kids too, I may add. Vegas is big, bawdy and exciting. The best shooters are all there. The event is vibrant and expanding. It is national in scope.
> 
> Make Indoor Nationals something special. Please! (Remember Cobo Hall?)


Vegas has the huge advantage of cheap flights in and out, plus the advantage of humongous amounts of cheap food and housing.

With regards to making an Indoor National region special - It totally depends on the region.

I will use Rio Rancho as an example. Rio Rancho always has the Wilde clan coming out to shoot. Generally, Brady Ellison comes out to Rio Rancho as well, but this year he went out to Seattle to combine a visit to his possible future in-laws and shoot the Seattle area regional. In addition, we've had RA's and USAT/ParaUSAT members attend Rio Rancho as well, so it's a good shoot for kids to see their heroes.

Bringing the dreaded "B" and "M" words to the forefront (Budget and Money), there is a balance between having too many tournaments and not enough.

Unless you get more commitment from local archers, having more regionals than what we have now is hard. I would *love* to see Arizona host a regional, and I think we could host a regional and not impact Rio Rancho or Tulare much. I'd love to see Wyoming host one, but I don't think you have enough population to warrant that.

Heading eastward, places like Andover is decent since the overall density of adjacent states makes it convenient for a lot of people.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

rambo-yambo said:


> If you take top 2 shooters out from each states, you will have a max of 100 shooters per event - that should generate good revenue. If you take top 3, you will have 150 shooters. Open registration reduce the importance of the tournament to just another tournament (NOT a NATIONAL tournament). If you want to go to National you have to earn it.


Here's the other logistical side of things. Theoretical numbers only.

If you take the top three shooters from each state in every category and class, you have in just the JOAD classes:

Bowman, Cub, Cadet, Junior
Recuve, Compound
50 states

And this is oversimplified.

3 archers x 4 = 12
12 x 2 = 24
24 x 50 = 1200 archers, just in the JOAD ranks.

Now - add all the theoretical possibilities of non-JOAD categories and classes. You couldn't fit it all in.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beast, that's easy. Just require minimum qualifying scores to compete in the National Championship event. Then, not even every state will have a representative in each division, and the number of participants will once again be reasonable.

We have minimum qualifying scores for international competition. It's a concept that works just fine.

IMO this would actually work very well for JOAD kids, since as a coach, we could encourage them to "qualify for nationals" by achieving a minimum qualifying score at a registered event - say, state JOAD indoor or their regular state indoor...

To me, this would make a LOT more sense than what we have now.

John


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Someone was worried about insufficient entries that would affect revenue if we don't have an open registration, my simply calculation just illustrates that even with 2 or 3 top shooters from each states we would have more that enough entries. If we have total of 1000 entries with open registration, the number will not be higher if we only allow the top 2 or 3 shooters from each state to compete.


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## corngnaker (Mar 8, 2012)

Did you see the huge scores put up by the cadet recurver from AZ? Just might be the next generation of Olympic shooters after Brady and Jake (or perhaps after and Butch and Ed).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dude, that's great. But it's only 8 points ahead of Colin K. from S. Texas, and Colin didn't shoot his best the first day. 

Still, very solid scores from Cadets. 

Whenever I see great Cadet scores like that, my first thought is "I wonder if they will even be shooting in 5 years...?" 

I've only been in this game for 9 years now, and I've seen my share of "top" cadets, cubs and juniors come and go. Meanwhile, the names in the top 10 (at least for the men) seldom seem to change that much. There is a long, hard road between a promising cadet or junior, and a top performing senior. Longer and more difficult than almost any can imagine. I hate to sound pessimistic, but the chances of a top performing cadet or junior archer bailing out are greater than them continuing on into the USAT ranks.

This, to me, is what makes Miranda Leek's accomplishments so significant. I can remember distinctly the day that she came up to me and Vic at the NFAA Indoor Nationals shoot in Louisville and said "one of these days, I'm going to be shooting with you guys." I think she was only 13 or so at the time. Maybe even 12. And lo and behold, here she is... So rare that it's really incredible.

John


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Dude, that's great. But it's only 8 points ahead of Colin K. from S. Texas, and Colin didn't shoot his best the first day.
> 
> Still, very solid scores from Cadets.
> 
> ...


I've watched Andrew Mateo practice and improve over the last year and a half, and I'm pretty sure that he's going to continue to excel in the sport as well as in life. (In between ends at practice he sits down and works on his math homework !!! )

Andrew's mom has been pretty nervous watching the scores come in so slowly -- we're all hoping for the best.

I wouldn't say "only" 8 points -- at the level that Colin and Andrew are shooting I'll bet that those extra points are difficult to find.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Andrew is a solid shooter. He also has one of the best releases you'll find in a recurve shooter - one of the biggest keys to success out there. Like Dave, I have had a chance to watch Andrew grow as an archer, and he has a solid career in it if he chooses that route.


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## DBrewer (Jul 17, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Whenever I see great Cadet scores like that, my first thought is "I wonder if they will even be shooting in 5 years...?"


I’ll second that…that’s precisely what happened to me. To shoot top scores like that, it takes lots and lots of hard work…sometimes that hard work leads to burn out…which leads to putting down the bow. I quit archer altogether after I “graduated” from JOAD when I was 18…I had had enough. 10 great years, but they were long and hard…I was ready to be done, even though I was at my prime and shooting very well. Fortunately the bug came back a few years ago and I’m enjoying this sport once again…maybe more than ever before.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

HikerDave and Beast, I hope you're right!

I coached a cadet and junior to the JDT and in the RA program once upon a time. They were shooting those kinds of scores. I made absolutely sure that I didn't push either of them too hard, but even they don't shoot anymore. I've seen a lot of kids peak at 15-18. Once they get out from under the parent's support, head to college and discover the opposite sex, archery is no longer that important. That's all I'm saying...

I think it was Jim Coombe that once told me about the "three C's" that always got in between young men and archery. "Chicks, cars and college." Or something like that. I've also heard it as the three "W's" of "women, wheels and work."  

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> HikerDave and Beast, I hope you're right!
> 
> I coached a cadet and junior to the JDT and in the RA program once upon a time. They were shooting those kinds of scores. I made absolutely sure that I didn't push either of them too hard, but even they don't shoot anymore. I've seen a lot of kids peak at 15-18. Once they get out from under the parent's support, head to college and discover the opposite sex, archery is no longer that important. That's all I'm saying...
> 
> ...


I've heard similar from Jim as well. However, archery is one of those things that you can get back into.

A lot of it is really mental dedication. If one chooses to shoot archery and go to college, you can. It's time management, and one may do the 6 year college plan that I did (inadvertently and not due to archery, but thanks to one of the 3 W's), but it's still possible.

There is an inherent challenge in the recurve world that isn't necessarily there in the compound side of things. The growth path appears to be a bit more "limited" in the recurve world than it is in the compound world. Even my own child noticed that and uses that as one of the reasons why he likes shooting stuff with training wheels on it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> However, archery is one of those things that you can get back into.


Yea, thank God for that, right? 

I personally don't think there is a thing in the world wrong with a kid putting down the bows through their high school and college years, then picking it back up once they have the time (and hopefully the money) to shoot. Look, it's like riding a bike once you "get it." And the added maturity and resources that a 20-something has (or in my case, a 30-something) will only help that person be an even better archer IMO.

From what I can see, college is the real killer. Very, Very few elite level shooters in the college ranks. There's a good reason for that. Archery just flat out isn't as important as getting an education. Period.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Archery just flat out isn't as important as getting an education. Period.


And that is one of the biggest things one needs nowadays in this oddball economy.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

many many years ago, at a sporting goods shop and range that is now just a memory, a young man asked Darrell Pace how to become a professional archer. I had only been helping with the JOAD club a few weeks but Darrell walked up to me in front of the youth archers and asked me what I made my first year as a lawyer. I told everyone. So DP asked me if I was the best lawyer in the world? No, The best lawyer in the country? No. The best lawyer in Ohio? No, I wasn't even the best lawyer on the east side of the 18th floor in the building where I worked. 


So Darrell looked at the kid who wanted to be a pro and noted that he made less as the best archer in the world for years, than a guy who wasn't even the best lawyer on his floor. The point being-getting a degree was a far better way to make lots of money.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great story Jim. 

I wouldn't even say "lots of money" either. That's just not necessary, even in the expensive sport of target archery. If a young person gets their education and can get a decent job and lives within their means, that leaves a lot of room for getting back into archery in the future. Heck, I had 3 kids very early, and was still able to "play" in this sport by the age of 33. Nearly 10 years later, I'm still achieving personal best scores. So, that always leads me to wonder "why the rush?" when folks spend so much energy worrying over young archers.

John


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Did they think better of giving preliminary results? If I use the computer I used when BeastMaster first posted I can see the PDF, but if I try any other computer I get a 404 error now.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

RecurveDad said:


> Did they think better of giving preliminary results? If I use the computer I used when BeastMaster first posted I can see the PDF, but if I try any other computer I get a 404 error now.


It's being updated again. As soon as the new results get posted, I'll update this thread.

-Steve


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

It was a USA Archery file uploading error (not intentional)  - correct results are here: http://usarchery.org/news/2012/03/0...nships-preliminary-unofficial-standings/46932


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

red_elan10 said:


> It was a USA Archery file uploading error (not intentional)  - correct results are here: http://usarchery.org/news/2012/03/0...nships-preliminary-unofficial-standings/46932


The page is fine, but the actual link to the results .PDF goes to this:
http://assets.teamusa.org/admin/sign_in?ngb_id=21

No biggie, just a linking issue.
-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Teresa, that link led me to a USA Archery admin login screen.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> I'm sure that of the 1250 FITA shooters (most of them anyway), the intellectual part of their brain would acknowledge that they most likely aren't going to be on the podium; but I'll bet the 'competitor' part of their brain is thinking 'I believe I can shoot my way onto that platform THIS TIME', if I shoot every arrow to my max skill limit'. I always believe I can win THIS TIME, but I'm not totally delusional - I have fall back/contingency goals (#1: win, if not then fall back to #2: podium finish, if not then fall back to #3: shoot better than last time, if not then fall back to #4: be first in my target butt group, if not then fall back to #5: finish strong, if not then fall back to #6: try to hit the paper every time, if not then fall back to #7: try to remember how to hold the bow and nock the arrow, if not then fall back to #8: try to sneak out without anyone recognizing me.
> (disclaimer: I've never had to fall all the way back to #8 ... yet).
> 
> One shooter was wearing shorts and cowboy boots (which probably provided a solid foot platform for him, but no one would have called it 'an athletic look'), which made me giggle considering the long discussions here about what's allowed and what's not allowed on the NAA shooting line with regards to clothing and footwear.


Larry, you crack me up. I'm going to share that sequence of 8 goals with my JOAD kids. I think they actually have a lot of merit!


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks, John - everyone, you all probably saw the update a few weeks back that USA Archery is launching a brand new website (as part of the USOC platform) - scheduled to launch in a few weeks. We are currently in the process of manually moving all of our documents and attachments to the new site as well as reorganizing and moving most of the content (very little is being auto-migrated), but there are some issues right now with attachments on both sites with all of the moving and re-linking going on. Trying to make the transition as seamless as possible for end users - please forgive any issues and feel free to shoot me an email ([email protected]) if you encounter something that does not work. Thanks for your patience!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Teresa - no biggie. Frankly, there's bigger fish to worry about than the results link.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Latest results are up.

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/do...ults_Indoor_National_Results_Program_V3.1.pdf

According to USA Archery's Facebook page, this result file contains everything except:
- Conyers, GA (first weekend)
- Wichita, KS (second weekend)
- Harrisonburg, VA (starts today at JMU)

FYI - Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Teresa, that's a big job! I'm going through the exact same thing at work now and we don't have nearly the number of pages you have to move. Good luck, and thanks for all you do.

John



red_elan10 said:


> Thanks, John - everyone, you all probably saw the update a few weeks back that USA Archery is launching a brand new website (as part of the USOC platform) - scheduled to launch in a few weeks. We are currently in the process of manually moving all of our documents and attachments to the new site as well as reorganizing and moving most of the content (very little is being auto-migrated), but there are some issues right now with attachments on both sites with all of the moving and re-linking going on. Trying to make the transition as seamless as possible for end users - please forgive any issues and feel free to shoot me an email ([email protected]) if you encounter something that does not work. Thanks for your patience!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

My "real" job is in Information Technology. 

Data migration, frankly, stinks. It's not easy, there's a lot that can go wrong, and backup plans better be in place.

Been there, done that, and I'm thankful that the migrations I've been involved with weren't as visible to the public as this one is.

-Steve


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## fotal (Jul 25, 2011)

here is the US Archery with the most current results and working link.

http://usarchery.org/news/2012/03/0...nships-preliminary-unofficial-standings/46932


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Latest results, updated as of 3/12/12, 3:51pm.

-Steve

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/do...ults_Indoor_National_Results_Program_V5.1.pdf


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Updated as of 11:33 am on 3/13

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/do...ults_Indoor_National_Results_Program_V6.1.pdf

If I read this correctly, this now has every region's results....so it's appears to be as near of a final before official verification.

-Steve


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks for the updates Beast. Not bad for her first national  Now we know what to shoot for!!!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

RecurveDad said:


> Thanks for the updates Beast. Not bad for her first national  Now we know what to shoot for!!!


Not a problem!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I like being able to search for "AZ" to see how the AZ kids did at both tourneys.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

With AZ Cup having been completed and NFAA indoor Nationals this weekend, USAA Indoor Nationals/JOAD Indoor Nationals is now in an 'oh by the way' status. This is a crying shame. One of our JOAD kids unofficially took 3rd place in the USAA portion of the 2 events. Unofficially, congratulations to him and to all the other shooters who worked so hard and have yet to be recognized.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> With AZ Cup having been completed and NFAA indoor Nationals this weekend, USAA Indoor Nationals/JOAD Indoor Nationals is now in an 'oh by the way' status. This is a crying shame. One of our JOAD kids unofficially took 3rd place in the USAA portion of the 2 events. Unofficially, congratulations to him and to all the other shooters who worked so hard and have yet to be recognized.


Speaking as a father, I feel your pain. My own child got on the "podium" in both JOAD and National Indoor portions of the shoot. 

Putting my other hat on, I don't envy the process. I know there is a lot of verification that goes on, and the staff used to do that also is part of the same staff that travelled to the Arizona Cup. 

We're just being patient. 

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I didn't notice that on the 14th of March, the results were updated once again. It's now on version 6.2 of the results.

-Steve

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/do...ults_Indoor_National_Results_Program_V6.2.pdf


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good example of why I chose not to spend $100+ on this event. Indoor nationals is overdue for an overhaul IMO. Needs to be shot on a single weekend. That would be a good start...

However, a HUGE congrat's out to the "ironman" of Olympic archery - Butch Johnson, on yet another National Championship title at the tender age of what? 56? Unbeliveable. And a 12 point margin! Amazing.

I watched Butch shoot clean for 2 days with 104? X's at Louisville in '04. He's an indoor spot machine.

Congrat's also to another veteran National champ - Jenny Nichols.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

John, It is not a $100 for most. It is 3 days, travel expense, hotel, meals and tournament registration. For most of us it is a multiple of 6, or more. I took my son and another archer this year. My multiple was closer to 10. 

Still nothing official with results. The tournament is certainly due for an overhaul. A big one.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Side commentary.

If we look at the math....

64 pages of results.
Average of 30 names per page (I'm not counting them all...so the average fits with my discussion point here)
1920 names based on the average number of names per page.

44th US Indoor National/2013 bid documents show that there's 4 regions, 2 venues minimum per region, 2-300 average attendance per venue. That's 1600-2400 total. So - the 1920 names seems to match up pretty well.

Each venue is it's own separate Star FITA event. Therefore, each venue is responsible for auditing the results before making that specific venue's results official.

USA Archery (per the bid documents) is responsible for preparing and distributing event registration, rosters, and results (paraphrased from the bid documents).

There is no specific mention of deadlines, timelines, or other things that encumber USA Archer or the host tournament committee in the bid documents with regards to results.

It is a possible assumption that one could merely publish the results as "official" once they are sorted (thanks to the new spreadsheet format) and all venues report in with their official results. Not knowing the background workings that are going on right now makes this mere conjecture.

Anyhow, this is just discussion to 1) show the fun logistics of this from a number standpoint, and 2) not let the subject move downward until the official results are published. 

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Personal commentary.

Venues:

There are quite a few people that recommend that everything is shot on the same weekend. 

I honestly don't know how well that would work out. Some host tournament clubs are "non-landed" and only rent locations that are large enough for their daily operations, not ones large enough to handle 30 lanes/15 bales or more to handle a regional.

Logistically, that is a pain. 

One could theoretically increase the number of venues per region, but at a 60/40 split between the host club and USA Archery, I don't know if that would dilute the profits to make it worthwhile to host more venues per region.

One could also argue holding Indoor Nationals at one central location. That would then put credence into the argument that national archery competitions only cater to those who can afford it. I don't know what the total number of shooters in the NFAA Indoor Nationals are right now, but there is a possibility that it's not over 1900 archers total. And - can you imagine trying to cram in 1900 archers into one venue without trying to make it like the WAF in Vegas?

Results:

Without knowing what is really going on in the background, I'm refraining from commenting too much on this. My only commentary is paraphrased from my own child, who said that he could care less about the actual hardware from getting on the podium, he just cares about the official results getting posted. I do know that as of today (and this is no April Fools joke), it is 21 days from when the last arrow was shot. 

Interesting argument that isn't Indoor Nationals related:

One could theoretically increase participation in Outdoor Nationals by doing things in a similar manner - hold tournaments in regional venues.

From a USA Archery perspective - imagine the increase in profits. 

From an archer or archer parent perspective - you can go to a regional that is closest to you. It reduces your costs to pay to play.

The converse to this part - your results may take a while. But - look at the amount of participants in Indoor Nationals versus Outdoor Nationals. The question is - will more participation be enough to offset the delay in results?

Just more discussion points while we wait...

-Steve


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Especially for outdoor shooting multiple venues is not tenable. The shooting conditions would vary so much as to make the results meaningless.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Rough estimate for NFAA Indoor Nationals attendance is 1300


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Especially for outdoor shooting multiple venues is not tenable. The shooting conditions would vary so much as to make the results meaningless.


Ahh, but I could beg to differ.

Lighting conditions vary from pretty good (Rio Rancho, Demmer Center, Nock Point) to blech (Tulare). So, does that make the Indoor Nationals results meaningless as well?


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I believe the bid documents/contract requires that venues report within 2 weeks of the end of the event. I understand one venue took every day of that 2 weeks, which is not optimal. I'm sure they had the results well before that and see no reason for them to withold them - a week should be plenty of time to report unless you're using quill pens on parchment and sending the results via pony express. 

When interim results were posted prior to the last weekend, two venues hadn't reported: Virginia (which hadn't been shot yet - a pretty good excuse) and one other from two weeks before. Because...? We could also go to two weekends, which would help. One club came to our region (Andover, MA) because the closer site was shooting the same day as S.A.T. testing which was an issue for some of their JOAD kids.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> Ahh, but I could beg to differ.
> 
> Lighting conditions vary from pretty good (Rio Rancho, Demmer Center, Nock Point) to blech (Tulare). So, does that make the Indoor Nationals results meaningless as well?


I'll let the compound shooters respond to the lighting question. It affects them to a greater degree.

As for outdoors, shooting 90m with a 20mph wind sure produces a different result than shooting 90m on a calm day. The variables outside affect scoring to a far greater degree than any possible variation in conditions indoors.

So if you're contemplating a multi-venue shoot, indoors is the only place to consider it, in my opinion.


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## skunklover (Aug 4, 2011)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I'll let the compound shooters respond to the lighting question. It affects them to a greater degree.
> 
> As for outdoors, shooting 90m with a 20mph wind sure produces a different result than shooting 90m on a calm day. The variables outside affect scoring to a far greater degree than any possible variation in conditions indoors.
> 
> So if you're contemplating a multi-venue shoot, indoors is the only place to consider it, in my opinion.



Agreed. The wind is a major factor, and in my opinion, the lighting less so. I shoot practice in pretty horrible lighting, and I've shot better and worse at places with better lighting. I shot indoor nationals at Tulare, and I actually found the lighting better than what I shoot in when I practice.


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