# International Rules.... let's unify 3d WORLD WIDE



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I havent thought internationally but I've pondered this in the US quite a bit. At least here, I think some common ground between ASA and IBO is significant to the growth of 3d. 

Personally, I think a speed limit needs to be adopted. I don't know that 280 is the answer since it eliminates many "common" hunters now. Maybe it is 300, 315? I don't know where that threshhold is but I agree that both organizations should adopt ONE speed.

I dont necessarily agree that one scoring ring game has to govern. The IBO and ASA are two very different games and I think there is a place for both....or at least it is ok to have both.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I Have been preaching this for awhile ! For 3D archery to grow there HAS to be one set of rules!

I would go with a 300 fps

Scoring - center scoring ring scored as a X the 10 ring scored as a 10 and the rest of the animal a 9, and a zero for a miss. So on a 40 target course the perfect score would be 400 40X. No make up points like 11-12-14. Keep it simple and then we could see if anyone is capable of shooting a perfect score. This way the better more consistent shooter wins. 

If I shoot 3D in California or Kentucky the rules should be the same just like golf. I shouldn't have to change equipment or class just becuase a club decides to redesign their rules ! Keep it simple keep it consistent and more things will happen.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I have always said that for sighted classes, any hit outside the 8 area should count zero.
It is the bow classes that need to be brought together to get true international competition. IFAA, IBO,ASA or whatever can have their own scoring rules but it would be nice to be able to shoot your class anywhere, anytime in any federation without swapping things around or changing your anchor etc.
If I shoot longbow in the States I can shoot 3 under and carbon arrows. In britain it is split finger and wood arrows only. Stupid things like that never help and it puts people off.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d..... If for nothing else to get organizations more uniform and back to reality.

No lighted nocks. No distractions.

Sure, ASA scoring rings. Good for those who can nail the 10 ring and be safe and 12 low for those who have the urge to gamble.

No 14 ring for bow novice type classes.

Have to agree with 280 fps. Suggest club input through chronographing. Fast bows, yes, but so far our club chronographing ain't showing it. Last average I know was well below 280 fps.

Any vane so long as it does not hinder sight of or block scoring zone.

Glue-in points for movable sight classes only.

No back stabs except for movable sight classes. Max of two STSs or equivalent of. No modifications allowed to STS or the like. 

Fixed sight length - 5" from front of riser.

Hunter classes - maximum 24/64" diameter arrow.

No umbrellas, period. Example; Fellow contestant may use hat or score card or score clipboard for shade for the shooter.

Adhere to time limits at the stake. No exceptions.

Allow Pro class for Fixed Pins. No required move up for this class.

Might have more.......


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

I wouldn't support any fixed speed limit, there is no point to this limitation. I understand that some folks want to level the playing field, and that's not the purpose of this sport. You go out and purchase the fastest bow on the market, and shoot a safe 5gpp arrow wieght, you should have zero issue showing up and shooting that bow. Might as well support a stricter draw weight limitation while you're at it.

I would agree with a ban on lighted nocks, and other fletching options that are a deliberate distraction to the shooters that follow you. This would include FOB type ring fletchings, from the blocking of the scoring rings and possible deflections.

I also agree the sport needs a unified set of rules, but not internationally. Until the sport reaches the Olympic level, there is no reason for an international regulatory body to adversely impact a primarily U.S. sport. A single set of rules, agreed upon by the I.B.O. and A.S.A. Scoring would also require all the 3D target manufacturers to match the target rings to that specification. From the equipment standpoint, make those requirements less specific. 5 pins, 12" stab, arrows 5 gpp, that level of basic. There is zero point in creating a situation where folks have to go out and purchase a different sight/rest/stabilizer/etc. in order to find a class to compete in (notice I say compete in, not be competitive in.) There will be those who invest in specific gear for their class, and they will be successful with that equipment. Opening the rules to allow any shooter to find a class (these classes need to be filed down in numbers, while they are at it) will most likely grow the sport. Where as making these classes more restrictive will only deter shooters.

In the end, its like showing up to an open class drag strip, you race what you bring. Don't see them throwing restricter plates on 'em do ya?


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Primarily a US sport, are you serious?????????? It's because of the way 3D is shot in America that most of the archers here can't compete on the world stage anymore, (please note I said most not all). The 30yd Trd and 50yd clear lanes only or whatever it is for compound rules have ruined 3D here not really any inequality in the federations. Go over to Europe and shoot some with the guys there at the distances they shoot, you will love it.
Whenever I set a trad course here I always set 30% of the targets at 50-60yds, at first people moaned like stink, now they love it and practice for those shots.






colo_dually said:


> I wouldn't support any fixed speed limit, there is no point to this limitation. I understand that some folks want to level the playing field, and that's not the purpose of this sport. You go out and purchase the fastest bow on the market, and shoot a safe 5gpp arrow wieght, you should have zero issue showing up and shooting that bow. Might as well support a stricter draw weight limitation while you're at it.
> 
> I would agree with a ban on lighted nocks, and other fletching options that are a deliberate distraction to the shooters that follow you. This would include FOB type ring fletchings, from the blocking of the scoring rings and possible deflections.
> 
> ...


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## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

I like diversity. If you make them all the same then what is the appeal of one over the other.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Speed limit all the way. Not real fair when it comes to short draw guys compared to the Gillinghams of the world. Him and I shoot the same bow for 3D. I can ibo mine at 295. He can IBO his at 343. Huge difference. His misjudges dont cost him like it will me. 3D is a judging game. 
Level the playing ground. 280 or 300. Just put a speed limit that everyone person can get to safely.


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## elkchasin (Apr 19, 2009)

Jame said:


> Speed limit all the way. Not real fair when it comes to short draw guys compared to the Gillinghams of the world. Him and I shoot the same bow for 3D. I can ibo mine at 295. He can IBO his at 343. Huge difference. His misjudges dont cost him like it will me. 3D is a judging game.
> Level the playing ground. 280 or 300. Just put a speed limit that everyone person can get to safely.


That is a good idea then we should make a heigth limit on NBA players. Ya right, make it 5 grains per pound run what you brung. Speed limits are lame.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

OK. Two totally different things sports and comparisons. You cant control height but you can control speed limits. Tell me where its fair. 


Comments like this is what keeps alot of archers from posting on here. Smart AS#$% like that.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

elkchasin said:


> That is a good idea then we should make a heigth limit on NBA players. Ya right, make it 5 grains per pound run what you brung. Speed limits are lame.


the only fair way to have it is with a speed limit, like jame said, a short draw archer and a long draw will not be on the same level. you say 5 gpp is fair, WRONG, a long draw archer will still be shooting way faster which leads to a huge advantage. a short draw archer would have to shoot a arrow that would be so light that it will float around in the wind just to get speed and to keep up which will be an inaccurate setup.... not fair...


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## elkchasin (Apr 19, 2009)

Jame said:


> OK. Two totally different things sports and comparisons. You cant control height but you can control speed limits. Tell me where its fair.
> 
> 
> Comments like this is what keeps alot of archers from posting on here. Smart AS#$% like that.


It is fair if you are shooting your bow within the manufactures spec on arrow weight. It is not a smart ass comment Should Nascar have a speed limit ?


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## mod10g (Dec 18, 2006)

They do, it's called a restrictor plate.



elkchasin said:


> It is fair if you are shooting your bow within the manufactures spec on arrow weight. It is not a smart ass comment Should Nascar have a speed limit ?


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## elkchasin (Apr 19, 2009)

Restrictor plate is like the 5 grain per pound rule to keep it safe. Nobody tells the drivers they are going to fast.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

It was a smart comment. It only takes common sense to see that theres a huge advantage when it comes to 5 gplb. 50 fps between 2 archers is huge. Trust me I know. I see it all the time. 

Nascar has rules so it keeps the game safe and any nascar team owner can reach speed limits that are closely matched to each other in nascar and arent restricted by the body size the Good Lord give them. Its just like nascar. Theses guys can make there cars faster if they didnt have rules and regulations. 
The restrictor plate is like 5 gp lb but no one is limited because of body size.

You tell me how its fair. It means I have to be within 3 yards on everything to stay a ten from 40 yds out but with 50 fps more the other competitor can get away with 4+ more. Huge advantage over the shorter draw. So how is it fair. Have a speed limit and we are more equal. Our misjudges will or should result in the same distance of a miss. 
If you want to find out who the best distance judger and archer is for that particular tournament then there should be a speed limit if not just make it a known distance shoot and then its definitely fair. Shoot what ever speed you bring. 
Jame


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

3rdplace said:


> I like diversity. If you make them all the same then what is the appeal of one over the other.


The appeal is 3D archery! You don't see other sports with different rules golf football etc.. They would not exist in the capacity they are now.. 3D archery will stay a backyard free for all without a universal set of rules to follow..


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3rdplace said:


> I like diversity. If you make them all the same then what is the appeal of one over the other.


Good point. Like I noted I suggested getting back to reality.

3D just maybe be it's own worst enemy and best friend. I hinted at the following in another thread. Quotes here, boys. This from just received BowHunting magazine; ASA, "250 clubs and 30 states" strong. IBO noted as the "maybe largest" 3D organization - So 250 clubs minimum??? NFAA with "1100 affiliated clubs" - No not all 3D, but a big part of these clubs are just like ours was, mostly 3D shooting. No number of independent clubs were given. Even so, just say the 1600 noted. So what yearly number of shooters to apply to get a real number of those shooting 3D for a entire year? If just 300 per club this is knocking on the door of 1/2 million per year. If by 500 per club, 800,000. If by our club's numbers, then over 1 1/2 million.

Somebody pick a number times the 1600 clubs.


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Primarily a US sport, are you serious?????????? It's because of the way 3D is shot in America that most of the archers here can't compete on the world stage anymore, (please note I said most not all). The 30yd Trd and 50yd clear lanes only or whatever it is for compound rules have ruined 3D here not really any inequality in the federations. Go over to Europe and shoot some with the guys there at the distances they shoot, you will love it.
> Whenever I set a trad course here I always set 30% of the targets at 50-60yds, at first people moaned like stink, now they love it and practice for those shots.


I know from experiance, you tell the longbow class to shoot at 50 yards, and there's 20 guys that will not be coming back to the club's next match, if they come back at all.
What specifically makes the way 3D shot here, makes American archers less competitive in the world stage? Like I've mentioned this isn't an Olympic event, it started in this country by hunters for the most part.



Jame said:


> Speed limit all the way. Not real fair when it comes to short draw guys compared to the Gillinghams of the world. Him and I shoot the same bow for 3D. I can ibo mine at 295. He can IBO his at 343. Huge difference. His misjudges dont cost him like it will me. 3D is a judging game.
> Level the playing ground. 280 or 300. Just put a speed limit that everyone person can get to safely.





tntone said:


> the only fair way to have it is with a speed limit, like jame said, a short draw archer and a long draw will not be on the same level. you say 5 gpp is fair, WRONG, a long draw archer will still be shooting way faster which leads to a huge advantage. a short draw archer would have to shoot a arrow that would be so light that it will float around in the wind just to get speed and to keep up which will be an inaccurate setup.... not fair...





Jame said:


> It was a smart comment. It only takes common sense to see that theres a huge advantage when it comes to 5 gplb. 50 fps between 2 archers is huge. Trust me I know. I see it all the time.
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...





cenochs said:


> The appeal is 3D archery! You don't see other sports with different rules golf football etc.. They would not exist in the capacity they are now.. 3D archery will stay a backyard free for all without a universal set of rules to follow..


Again, I'm going to disagree with any speed limit. Archery is a sport, and is somewhat athletic, handicapping those who are physically capable of doing better is contray to every sporting discipline in this country. That would be the equivalent to having PGA golfers have to shoot a club that they can only get 280 yards on a drive for. Or telling an MMA fighter, that his weight class can only max out the bench at 300lbs. Those that are physically capable are going to excel in the sport they choose. You invest in the gear that's fast, and the regulatory bodies should only be stepping in when there is a safety issues (hence 5gpp). When you restrict those who can excel with something like a speed limit, you are going to reduce the number of shooters who attend. I don't believe in a level playing field where sports are concerned, those that invest the time, resources, and train (not cheat) and may have the physical advantage, should not be handicapped for doing as such by ideas like the speed limit.


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## BlondeBomber (Nov 25, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Whenever I set a trad course here I always set 30% of the targets at 50-60yds, at first people moaned like stink, now they love it and practice for those shots.


I wish all 3D courses would have a few long shots in it. This is all about practice and fun so I don't see why not. The majority of my practice shots are at 60 yards just because it's more fun and challenging than shooting a 20 yard chip shot.


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## BlondeBomber (Nov 25, 2011)

elkchasin said:


> That is a good idea then we should make a heigth limit on NBA players. Ya right, make it 5 grains per pound run what you brung. Speed limits are lame.


Maybe a middle ground can be found. I like the idea of leveling the playing field "somewhat" for shorter draws, younger folks and older folks but people must be able to advance bow technology similar to how NASCAR has done. It's a challenge to tune a bow for maximum potential and a rigid speed limit would take all of those archery skills out of it.


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

BlondeBomber said:


> Maybe a middle ground can be found. I like the idea of leveling the playing field "somewhat" for shorter draws, younger folks and older folks but people must be able to advance bow technology similar to how NASCAR has done. It's a challenge to tune a bow for maximum potential and a rigid speed limit would take all of those archery skills out of it.


Great point, I hadn't considered the technical challenges of getting every foot of speed out of these bows.


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## Caddo Creek (Jan 16, 2010)

Really, I thought NASCAR had more rules than most to make the cars equal (body, engines, tires, etc.). Why not have 126# wrestlers compete against heavyweights. 3D is about judging distance and shooting. There are archery games that already exist that is just about shooting. IMHO


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Speed limits not enforced? Stock cars have them. They are called restrictor plates. Restrictors plates aside, stock cars have to be built within the rules.

3D Rules in place, the competitive bow can be built.

I have different bows set up or have that to fall within the rules. My present target bow, 284 fps. Fast simple change and 269 fps. Another bow cruises at 295 fps, but a simple change had it fall well within the then NFAA rule of 280 fps, 276 fps if I remember correctly. My fastest, my play toy, 310 fps.

Those of us that know how to set up a bow can shoot a bunch of different arrows and only change sights or sight settings and that's all.
I know of one that really goes overboard - logs for indoors and soda straws for 3D. His bow is danged accurate with either.

Personally, I like the speed replies held to what you want, not slam or disagree. If it comes out to be 300 fps, fine. I'll build my bow to nail 300 fps. My three present bows, IBO - 325, 316 and 340 plus. IBO speed give here are of the same bows above respectively.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Interesting and ongoing arguments. Bottom line is that there is no financial benefit for IBO and ASA (or anyone else) to combine and run under one set of rules. If you like speed limits, shoot ASA. If you like pretty much unlimited speed, shoot IBO. The closest ASA comes to us in London, KY (3 hrs). IBO clubs all around us. Not all clubs have all classes (I personally think there are too many already and need to be trimmed down). And there is too much cheating at all levels from the local pencil pushers (or "line pushers") to the Pros.

3D will probably never be an Olympic sport. They can't even agree to allow compounds into the Olympics although FITA (aka World Archery) is trying to come up with enough significant differences between compounds and recurves to get the compounds in. They've changed the compound side from 90, 70, 50, 30 Meters shooting ranges to just 50 M now. How is the Olympics going to hold 3D competitions? If they do it will be nothing like you see now. It will be in an arena and wide open. The Olympics is not just about the athletes...it's about spectators and money. Lots of it.

So combining all 3D under one umbrella is not going to happen. There are too many players and organizations to please. You'd have a better chance building a bridge from CA to Hawaii...just my two cents...


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## mod10g (Dec 18, 2006)

Yes Nascar did tell the drivers they are going to fast, after Bill Elliott set the all time record at Talladega many years ago they started enforcing rules such as restrictor plates and spoiler height so they couldn't go much more than 200 mph. Then they standardized the body's on the cars, it's not like it was back in the 80's when they actually drove cars that had a stock body from a car you could go down to your local dealer and buy. They also tell them which engine parts are legal for each make of manufacturer


elkchasin said:


> Restrictor plate is like the 5 grain per pound rule to keep it safe. Nobody tells the drivers they are going to fast.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Colo Dually, you may well be right about the sport being developed here as hunting practice but it has long since out grown that and should develop as such. It is now target archery using 3D animals. Modern bows and modern archers are now capable of shooting accurately at longer distances, with or without sights. A good flatbow shooter in the UK will have around an 80% first arrow kill rate no matter what the course or distances.
Keeping 3D archery shackled to hunting here pretty much rules out it's chance of ever becoming mainstream. Very few sponsors outside or archery companies would be brave enough to link their name to a sport with hunting connections.


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## colo_dually (Oct 11, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Colo Dually, you may well be right about the sport being developed here as hunting practice but it has long since out grown that and should develop as such. It is now target archery using 3D animals. Modern bows and modern archers are now capable of shooting accurately at longer distances, with or without sights. A good flatbow shooter in the UK will have around an 80% first arrow kill rate no matter what the course or distances.
> Keeping 3D archery shackled to hunting here pretty much rules out it's chance of ever becoming mainstream. Very few sponsors outside or archery companies would be brave enough to link their name to a sport with hunting connections.


Simply understand that most 3D shooters that support your local clubs matches, do so in practice for hunting season. Mainstream isn't defined by the large event money, just a lot of recreational shooters showing up to events. Until the money starts flowing in from sponsorships, or organizations, the sport will continue to cater to those who are actually showing up and paying the entrance fees. Which means shorter shots taken, minimize arrow loss for the casual shooter, and keeping the shoots recreational.


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## mod10g (Dec 18, 2006)

I think standardized rings would be the first step in the right direction, maybe offer the hunting class as unlimited hunter with no limit on speed. There is a compromise that will need to be made by both organizations, but I think in the long run it would benefit 3D as a whole. Maybe one day they could offer a IBO/ASA world championship.


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

colo_dually said:


> I know from experiance, you tell the longbow class to shoot at 50 yards, and there's 20 guys that will not be coming back to the club's next match, if they come back at all.
> What specifically makes the way 3D shot here, makes American archers less competitive in the world stage? Like I've mentioned this isn't an Olympic event, it started in this country by hunters for the most part.
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, golf does have equipment rules as to how far the ball will fly and how much spring is in the head of the driver.


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## EnglishKev (Aug 8, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Colo Dually, you may well be right about the sport being developed here as hunting practice but it has long since out grown that and should develop as such. It is now target archery using 3D animals. Modern bows and modern archers are now capable of shooting accurately at longer distances, with or without sights. A good flatbow shooter in the UK will have around an 80% first arrow kill rate no matter what the course or distances.
> Keeping 3D archery shackled to hunting here pretty much rules out it's chance of ever becoming mainstream. Very few sponsors outside or archery companies would be brave enough to link their name to a sport with hunting connections.





colo_dually said:


> Simply understand that most 3D shooters that support your local clubs matches, do so in practice for hunting season. Mainstream isn't defined by the large event money, just a lot of recreational shooters showing up to events. Until the money starts flowing in from sponsorships, or organizations, the sport will continue to cater to those who are actually showing up and paying the entrance fees. Which means shorter shots taken, minimize arrow loss for the casual shooter, and keeping the shoots recreational.


99.9% of 3D shooters in the UK will never hunt, and have no interest in hunting (I am one of the 0.1%).
Our rules are probably as far away from any in the states as you can get.
For a start, all adults shoot from the same pegs regardless of equipement, thus a Primitive archer will shoot the same distance as a compound shooter (there is a provision for an additional 'sighted' peg but not many clubs use this).
We have no maximum/minimum target distance.
Scoring is based on shooting a maximum of three arrows, if you miss with the first, you move forward a peg and take a second.
Points go down accordingly (first arrow 24, 20, 16, inner kill/kill/wound, second arrow 14,10, kill/wound third arrow 8,4, kill/wound).
Many of the traditional shooters regard the extra arrows as getting more value for their entry fee!!
As Bigjono states, good trad shooters over here do hit the target first arrow a lot of the time, and at the longer distances.
Oh yeah, 300fps speed limit, most shooters do not get anywhere near this.

We have 142 registered clubs in the NFAS association most of whom put on at least one open shoot a year, many put on two or three.
Numbers have dropped a bit in the recession, but most open shoots still field well over 100 entries (70% of which are non compound shooters).
I have 9 clubs within 55 miles of me(not including mine at 6 miles), another 6 if I extend to 80 miles. 

I would say the majority of our 3D shooters here would not be interested in changing the rules, for example, we had a vote on wether binoculars should be allowed to be used recently, the issue was very contentious (as Bigjono will testify) and triple the normal number of members actually voted on this (still only 15% of the total membership!!).
The result was 74% of the vote was against, so bino's are still banned.ukey:

So, International rules? I doubt it!

Kev


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

As if I needed another reason, this thread makes me proud to be an American.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Why in particular, what is there about this thread that is pro American?






tmorelli said:


> As if I needed another reason, this thread makes me proud to be an American.


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## elkchasin (Apr 19, 2009)

I agree as well with getting your maximum potential out of your gear not to de-tune your bow to make it slower when you are within manufactures specs, there are classes for cubs youth seinors and super seinors they compete aginst each other in their classes making the playing field level.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

elkchasin said:


> I agree as well with getting your maximum potential out of your gear not to de-tune your bow to make it slower when you are within manufactures specs, there are classes for cubs youth seinors and super seinors they compete aginst each other in their classes making the playing field level.


well i guess we need to make brackets for different draw lengths, 27" and under, 29" and under, 31" and under, ect.... speed rule = all equal and fair...


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## BlondeBomber (Nov 25, 2011)

hdracer said:


> Interesting and ongoing arguments. Bottom line is that there is no financial benefit for IBO and ASA (or anyone else) to combine and run under one set of rules. If you like speed limits, shoot ASA. If you like pretty much unlimited speed, shoot IBO. The closest ASA comes to us in London, KY (3 hrs). IBO clubs all around us. Not all clubs have all classes (I personally think there are too many already and need to be trimmed down). And there is too much cheating at all levels from the local pencil pushers (or "line pushers") to the Pros.
> 
> 3D will probably never be an Olympic sport. They can't even agree to allow compounds into the Olympics although FITA (aka World Archery) is trying to come up with enough significant differences between compounds and recurves to get the compounds in. They've changed the compound side from 90, 70, 50, 30 Meters shooting ranges to just 50 M now. How is the Olympics going to hold 3D competitions? If they do it will be nothing like you see now. It will be in an arena and wide open. The Olympics is not just about the athletes...it's about spectators and money. Lots of it.
> 
> So combining all 3D under one umbrella is not going to happen. There are too many players and organizations to please. You'd have a better chance building a bridge from CA to Hawaii...just my two cents...


A couple of thoughts. They may not combine but one organization will eventually win out and become dominant like most professional sports leagues have done over the years. It would not surprise me if 3D archery or compound bows become an Olympic event eventually. It all takes time and the wheels of the Olympic committee turn slowly.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

elkchasin said:


> That is a good idea then we should make a heigth limit on NBA players. Ya right, make it 5 grains per pound run what you brung. Speed limits are lame.



I agree with Jame! The speed limit level's the playing field in the classes (especially the PRO/ALL UNKNOWN classes) The abillity/skill of judging yardage is a MAJOR part of of these classes! When you consider the comparrison to Gillingham that Jame metioned....If you do away with the speed limit the emphasis and importance on judging yardage STILL REMAINS for the short draw archers but not as much for guys like Gillingham! Doesn't matter if an NBA player is 7' tall or 6' tall they have to shoot from the same three point line or from the same free throw line! If you don't want a speed limit them make all classes known yardage.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

BlondeBomber said:


> A couple of thoughts. They may not combine but one organization will eventually win out and become dominant like most professional sports leagues have done over the years. It would not surprise me if 3D archery or compound bows become an Olympic event eventually. It all takes time and the wheels of the Olympic committee turn slowly.


Yes, compounds will eventually make it the Olympics but only because of the efforts of the governing i.e. FITA/World Archery. All the tournaments worldwide are run the same way with the same rules. For that to happen to 3D everyone would need to comform but with the way things are now that will not happen. Money and power get in the way. IBO and ASA, while similar, cater to separate audiences. While some shoot both, a majority prefer one over the other due to the way things are run, the shooting format and individual classes. If and when one format is choosen, the number of participants will diminish just as the number of FITA shooters has due to changes in their format.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Jay-J said:


> I agree with Jame! The speed limit level's the playing field in the classes (especially the PRO/ALL UNKNOWN classes) The abillity/skill of judging yardage is a MAJOR part of of these classes! When you consider the comparrison to Gillingham that Jame metioned....If you do away with the speed limit the emphasis and importance on judging yardage STILL REMAINS for the short draw archers but not as much for guys like Gillingham! Doesn't matter if an NBA player is 7' tall or 6' tall they have to shoot from the same three point line or from the same free throw line! If you don't want a speed limit them make all classes known yardage.



Agreed. Speed limits should be a must. Entry fees in the pro class is not cheap nor is it cheap in any other class. When playing for big money and contingency the playing field should be fair. Why should the longer draw length guy have an edge over a shorter draw guy. 


Detune your bow to make it slower. Your not so called detuning your bow. Put heavier points or a bigger heavier arrow. Adjust your arrow rest a little and change sights. Takes 15 min tops. You wouldnt have to Detune your bow if there were speed limits. 

Without speed limits to level the playing field then we need to make it all known. Thats completely leveling the playing field.
Jame


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> As if I needed another reason, this thread makes me proud to be an American.


He means freedom of speech and debate.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I like the speed limit. I also know that the ASA prides themselves on the speed limit but if they could streamline some classes and put in a no speed restrictions class I think they could fill it up. Problem is you would need one for the hunters, open, men, women and everyone else.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Jame said:


> He means freedom of speech and debate.


:thumbs_up

Well bhtr3d, it seems like the only topics that have really made it to discussion are scoring rings and speed.

There doesnt seem to be a concensus on either.

IBO shooters think their way is best. (5 gr/lb, center 11....or X, etc)
Europeans think their way is best. (no binos, stretch the targets, miss once, try again, miss again, try again)
ASA shooters like a speed limit and a scoring system with risk/reward. 

I'm of the opinion still that a speed limit (in the 280-315 range) should apply in competitive classes. I also don't think a merger of ASA/IBO is necessary nor do I think unified scoring is a necessity- comparison: you can shoot Vegas and NFAA 5-spot, you can shoot FITA field or NFAA field all on hunter, field and/or animal faces......you can even shoot NAA rules thumbs_do) on the Vegas face, etc. Let ASA and IBO remain- they are different games in the same way there are different types of spot shooting. 

In summary, my opinion is that any new rules should focus on portability for shooters between the two organizations and to allow "the average guy" to jump in and give it a try with what he has. In my opinion, that is where the growth of our sport lies.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Well bhtr3d, it seems like the only topics that have really made it to discussion are scoring rings and speed.
> 
> ...


I, too, have started to change my stance with regard to speed limits and other such stuff. To me, it is making more and more sense to just let people "SHOOT WHATCHA BRUNG" and to heck with all of this other stuff. We can still have the separations for long stabilizers, and that sort of thing...but the speed limits in ASA could perhaps be bumped to 300, and leave IBO do whatever. 
The key to growth of both organizations are accommodating NEW shooters into the game, but too many equipment restrictions that require shooters to actually have to slow their bows down or make other radical changes simply turn people away!
MOST are in it for the comaraderie, the fun, and to shoot their bows...so LET THEM SHOOT THEIR BOWS!

There are a few things that are being allowed that others have mentioned should be disallowed, but I'm not going to stir open that argument again; it isn't worth it, because those limitations aren't going to float anyways...so why beat the dead horse anymore? People who know me know exactly the TWO big ones that I strongly think need to be stopped.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

If some one would opt for a "Run What Cha Brung" class I wouldn't be opposed. On the other hand, Guests can shoot (not restricted to speed?), and there they can figure out if they will like shooting competition.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> If some one would opt for a "Run What Cha Brung" class I wouldn't be opposed. On the other hand, Guests can shoot (not restricted to speed?), and there they can figure out if they will like shooting competition.




I've seen more than one club try to run an "outlaw" (run what ya' brung) class and it failed miserably on each attempt that I'm aware of. There just were no shooters who wanted to enter it. 

In the spirit of some of the posts above, I would like to see "nit-picky" rules that divide classes streamlined between the organizations. So that a given shooter can take his equipment from organization to organization and be legal in the same class (vanes, screw in points, number of pins, shaft diameters, stabilizers, etc). The conflict lies more in the "lower" classes than amongst your open classes if the goal is to increase attendance by existing shooters and make it easier for new shooters to "give it a try."

The speed limit (or alternative equivalent) has to come first and the rest should be easy.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> I've seen more than one club try to run an "outlaw" (run what ya' brung) class and it failed miserably on each attempt that I'm aware of. There just were no shooters who wanted to enter it.
> 
> In the spirit of some of the posts above, I would like to see "nit-picky" rules that divide classes streamlined between the organizations. So that a given shooter can take his equipment from organization to organization and be legal in the same class (vanes, screw in points, number of pins, shaft diameters, stabilizers, etc). The conflict lies more in the "lower" classes than amongst your open classes if the goal is to increase attendance by existing shooters and make it easier for new shooters to "give it a try."
> 
> The speed limit (or alternative equivalent) has to come first and the rest should be easy.


See my first reply. Deer hunters/bow hunters; I don't see extended sights. I don't see back stabililzers. I don't see "log" arrows used. In fact, I can't remember seeing one front stabilizer over 8 inches long.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Is this a bust, wanting unified rules? Two things.

One, of the Titled Post, these rules would apply to only sanctioned events. We have only so many competing in sanctioned events, whether State or National level.

Two, no one, no supreme power will ever change local club rules. Clubs establish rules that best serve the club. Our club is a ASA club, but have the old NFAA designations for classes. We have 4 shooting stakes; Red - Adult and Young Adult with compound bows. Yellow - Traditional, Women, Youth and Bare compound. Blue - kids 11 and under. Orange - Our BowHunter, no restrictions whatsoever (our 2nd largest class) and open to any man, woman or child with any bow setup, stick bows to Open. Note; Only one open shooter has ever won and that was once. The biggie here, we see no need to change, whether rules or targets.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I thank everyone so far for giving some true pro and cons that they feel about it. It's nice to not have a dissing /bickering threat every now and then. 

I would like to see some more feedback. I have a project im working on actually. 

Thanks.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last year I won 12 local shoots with my destroyer shooting 345 fps in the open class using homade stabs and a 5 pin hunting sight. This year I am shooting a true target bow at 280 fps with a slider sight and lense with a full set of stabs and fat arrows, even though I have shot two of my highest scores ever I am not winning as many of the shoots because the slow bow at 280 fps requires me to be perfect when I am ranging the distances. I do have to say I am much more proud of my scores this year because I earn each and every point that I get this year so even though I am not winning I keep reminding myself that I am preparing for the important shoots on a national level at the asa shoots. I got 7th in open b both times I have went this year in lousiana and texas and both of those shoots I shot very average. As soon as I shoot my potential I will bring home my first national shoot win. This goal is what keeps me shooting the slow bow each and every day.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Disclaimer:

Many of the shoots I won last year were because the best 3-d shooter in my area 3dshooter25 was away at national asa shoots and that allowed me to win many extra shoots because even with a speed bow I couldn't beat him on my best day.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> Last year I won 12 local shoots with my destroyer shooting 345 fps in the open class using homade stabs and a 5 pin hunting sight. This year I am shooting a true target bow at 280 fps with a slider sight and lense with a full set of stabs and fat arrows, even though I have shot two of my highest scores ever I am not winning as many of the shoots because the slow bow at 280 fps requires me to be perfect when I am ranging the distances. I do have to say I am much more proud of my scores this year because I earn each and every point that I get this year so even though I am not winning I keep reminding myself that I am preparing for the important shoots on a national level at the asa shoots. I got 7th in open b both times I have went this year in lousiana and texas and both of those shoots I shot very average. As soon as I shoot my potential I will bring home my first national shoot win. This goal is what keeps me shooting the slow bow each and every day.


If you are going to ASA shoots and your bow is at 280 fps, then it is LEGAL and sure isn't SLOW, it is LEGAL and right up there in speed with EVERYONE else. In fact, I think you likely know that the *345 fps bow is NOT LEGAL for ASA competition in the first place*...
In addition, even if you were shooting your "hunting bow" in ASA and the Hunter divisions...you are STILL going to be limited to 280 fps plus or minus 3%, or 288 fps.
IF you shoot NFAA....you are limited to 300 fps.

Thus EVERYONE else shooting those events is in the same boat with their "slow" 280 fps bow, so you ain't losing anything with the loss of speed from 345...cuz nobody else can shoot 345 fps either.

So, you are 'right there' on speed with your ASA rig...be it a "target bow" or a "hunting bow" rig....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> Disclaimer:
> 
> Many of the shoots I won last year were because the best 3-d shooter in my area 3dshooter25 was away at national asa shoots and that allowed me to win many extra shoots because even with a speed bow I couldn't beat him on my best day.


You aren't alone on that one padgett! It is NOT the "speed" that is winning..it is the ability to put the shot where you want it (FORM and EXECUTION), and of course the ability to determine the distance. Just cuz you got 345 doesn't necessarily mean that the 345 fps is what gets you the higher scores. There are those in ASA winning at 270-276 fps because that is their limit for both ACCURACY and speed out of their set up and works the best for them. Just cuz you max out with bow speed isn't the full answer to success. Sometimes you'll shoot a BETTER score with a LOWER speed because of the forgiveness of the bow. That extra 10-12 fps can COST points, too...just like FAT SHAFTS can cost you points indoors instead of helping you.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What's going to happen if? 
The ASA permits states to sort of make their own rules for ASA events; Win a State Championship, maybe win $10.00 and you're moved up. Moved up in the state the shooter must be moved up at the national level regardless not even coming close to the money level for move up. May need corrected here > Win so many Quaifiers and must move up. Use national rules instead of federation rules. Must use range finders for known yardages (no written yardages) and then the national level has written known yardages. And hard to tell how many more "this is my state and I'm running it this way" things.


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

We here in Michigan have the "Outlaw" class at our State Level ASA. It's doing pretty well. I like the fact that our Federation ASA has implemented this class to try and bring in the IBO shooters. I wish the National ASA would do it as well.

That said, I'm in favor of having the speed limit to help level the field but wouldn't be opposed to bumping it to 300 fps.


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## BStokes (Dec 10, 2008)

I would like to see scoring rings from the center out. Let's say 10 8 6 and anywhere else on the animal a 2 or 4. This would take the luck out and also there would be no connector to stretch the rings. Speed limits do keep the playing field level. Comparing 3d to Nascar or Basketball is not relevant.


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

I say get rid of the speed rule all together use IBO/AMO or something for safe arrow weight per poundage, this keep bow manufacturers from pushing the limits

move pro classes out to 70 yds
semi pro 70 yds
amateur and hunter classes out to 50 yds
novice 35 and under
Kids 14 and under 25
Kids 11 and under 20
Kids 8 and under 10
this will help save targets and maximize bows and make shooters better

score ASA but I like IBO scoring better so incorporate both, 
except make it a center 11 always and one 12, say high or low, for each tourney 
have the 14 in the ASA in the same location for the gamblers at every class except for amateur and below

Stabs, sights and accessories should fit the class, Hunters use what you hunt with
Semi pro and up, anything goes
amateur divide it up

Arrow size break into hunter and shooter(pro semi-pro) classes

either have known yardage or guessed, don't mix it up.


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