# Holding time



## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

focus..IMO


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

speaking just for myself, I have a sometimes-too-long settling in period before I hit the mental "execute" button that looks from the outside like a very long aim. I noticed this watching a video taken of me a couple weeks ago. But the actual execution if it's going right is somewhere around 3 seconds. The whole thing once I come to full draw, though, can take a lot longer than that.

And yes if I goof around too long during settling in and still proceed to "execute" instead of letting down like I should, I also start to wiggle and drop, etc.... 

There is a fitness component to it for me, though, which I hope will improve over time as I just keep shooting at league and tournaments, etc.

DM


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

aread said:


> One thing that I noticed is that many of the better shooters at Lancaster held at full draw a lot longer than most of the people that I shoot with. They seem to be in plenty good physical condition to do this. If I try to hold as long as them, after just a few arrows I would start shaking.
> 
> Any speculation on why they hold so long? What are they doing while at full draw? And what are the benefits?
> 
> ...


It seems you may have stumbled onto something you and "most of the people you shoot with" may want to consider. 

Also take note of the fact that each shooter's shot clock starts after the previous shooter has shot. They don't have much time for letting down. This is one of the topics that inspired some of the older threads here where holding and floating, shot timing, and aiming were discussed.

I'll put my money on the idea that they are all going through every thing they know how to do to get that dot to sit as close to perfectly still in the middle while they execute their release as smoothly as they possibly can. All except for one that appeared to be struggling with punching a little bit.

What you see behind the glass tells you how much longer you need to hold. There is no benefit to it taking longer unless it simply takes that long to get it to settle and execute the shot. Discipline in waiting it out and knowing what to do to get it there without the nerves getting the best of you is the game they are playing. It takes a certain amount of time before the bow settles down before you can really start aiming. When I have it working very well, I am probably a good 5-7 seconds at full draw before I start to aim hard, and usually on my second breath. From there it could take two seconds, or it could take ten. I don't care about time. My cue is the sight picture.

As far as strength to do it goes, you train harder than the game you are playing.


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## jelmore (Sep 24, 2013)

Cbrunson, Can you explain this "settling in" period in more detail? And what exactly your looking at for cues in your sight picture. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

.......


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## BrianStevenson (Jul 7, 2014)

I shoot very fast. I believe in getting settled on the x then letting it fly


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

jelmore said:


> Cbrunson, Can you explain this "settling in" period in more detail? And what exactly your looking at for cues in your sight picture. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.


Not here. Sorry.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Thank you for your responses!
Allen


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Always been a firm believer most start aiming too soon. There is a definitive difference between sighting and aiming. Too many archers start aiming prior to finishing the process. The "settling in" I would be believe correlate to finishing the process - then aim. 


.02


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

aread said:


> One thing that I noticed is that many of the better shooters at Lancaster held at full draw a lot longer than most of the people that I shoot with. They seem to be in plenty good physical condition to do this. If I try to hold as long as them, after just a few arrows I would start shaking.
> 
> Any speculation on why they hold so long? What are they doing while at full draw? And what are the benefits?
> 
> ...


How much draw weight do you have? Saw this magazine/Pro discussion and at the bottom was his rig set stating 62 pounds. BS! I spoke with him and his Indoor was set to 47 pounds. His 3D bow was set to 62 pounds. Said he could hold it forever. Take 8 pounds from my 55 and I could hold for a heck of long time.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Not sure draw weight plays much of a factor in your hold. Holding weight may be higher on the 47# bow than the 62#.. Just a random guess but I would say most spot shooters would fall into the 17-21# holding weight range - some build higher pressure into the wall. I would say form/alignment is the key element to the shot breaking down. Conditioning plays a big part also. Finding your holding weight/mass weight preference for your style of shot. And simply a good sight picture from the start of the shot-if the dot is moving your natural tendency is to tense up to stop it. We all know how the rest of that story goes.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cable stop bows.....cushion effect. 17 - 21# 
62 X .65 = 40.30 - 62 = 21.70
47 X .65 = 30.55 - 47 = 16.45

I think cam design is the major player today. I know 80 and 85% let off with limb stops can be like holding onto a mountain. I know 85% let off with only 55 pounds and LMS cams was like holding onto a rocket in full blast off mode. Same everything with LS3 cams, kitten to hold....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I actually find higher holding weight to be less fatiguing on my bow arm. Additionally I just plain don't like a wide valley.
I guess I'm just a Spiral kind of guy.

How that relates to holding time: I find that a higher holding weight settles in faster. That said I'm pretty consistent in settling 3-5 seconds after I hit anchor and the shot goes off about 3-4 after that. The settle time can get a bit longer outdoors.

Grant


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

lets not forget also they had what, 30 seconds for a shot? Not a lot of time to let down and start the shot process over.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Talking about holding weight can have many meanings since we don't have a let say "standard" to talk about. 
I would assume many just measure on the draw board a holding weight of i.e. #14 or #17 but actually when they draw the bow to full anchor they still keep pulling hard into a back wall - and most likely hard limb stops - to get to the full holding weight, but there could be a 1 mm difference or 2 or 3 or more mm difference to the shooters "full" DL into the BT ...
I have a dedicated arrow to transfer "my DL" to the draw board - where I hold the weight on cables and not limbs - and set the cams to the specific holding weight, my best comfort level is 22-23 lbs regardless what is a DW of the bow. 
For outdoor I like to have it around #57.5 DW and about 3-4 millimetes shorter DL, and I have one bow for indoor about #52 maybe slightly longer DL, but these are very different geometry grips location!
This transfers in my case to a 55-maybe-57% letoff. But even this number is variable and honestly who cares what is a percentage but more what amount of tension (between the release jaw and the gripping point) steadies the picture the best...
Also, how you set the bow DL to your DL? Is your bow arm extended as a bone-on-bone or some other variations? 
Me in example I like to have my elbow slightly bent and turned outward so I have a slight little slack can play with DW and BT easier and hold higher weight - on the slope before the valley.
The other answer from my findings, how to find when the shot settles...the bow in your grip must settle first. You think if the front tip of the stabilizer stops moving it settles that is just wrong. 
I am shooting a shoot through cable bow, in the moment when I got to the full draw/anchor, I have this in my timing sequence to check the sight picture in relative to left and right cable. Im looking through the peep serving opening below the peep and can see the sight picture is wobbling for next 1-2-3 seconds before stops (I can grab the grip harder to dampen down the wobbling) , only after I move my attention to center the scope and only after I switch to the target center, and only after I start the firing process. So I am closely monitoring two different sight pictures in a sequence, but the tip of the stabilizer may be rock steady. 
What me to call this effect until the grip (maybe, maybe something else) settles ? 
How can you see this on a cable guard bows I am not sure, but must be some other reference "item" somewhere on your bows what can be an indicator something is happening and not necessary is a torque. This may be a reason that the top pro's holding that so long?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> How much draw weight do you have? Saw this magazine/Pro discussion and at the bottom was his rig set stating 62 pounds. BS! I spoke with him and his Indoor was set to 47 pounds. His 3D bow was set to 62 pounds. Said he could hold it forever. Take 8 pounds from my 55 and I could hold for a heck of long time.


I recently switched from 55# to 42# on my indoor target bow. It's certainly much easier to hold for a longer time while keeping my form together.




subconsciously said:


> Always been a firm believer most start aiming too soon. There is a definitive difference between sighting and aiming. Too many archers start aiming prior to finishing the process. The "settling in" I would be believe correlate to finishing the process - then aim.
> .02


That's an interesting point about aiming too soon. I think I agree with you. Can you elaborate on it a little more?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I just returned from the coaches symposium held at the OTC in Colorado Springs and had the pleasure to discuss some of these issues with the top USAT coaches and sports psychologists in the country. All of them indicated that even the elite shooters often began their focus too early in their shot cycles. 

Coach Lee presented slides of his work with some of his archers where he had them wired to EEG and heart rate monitors while they were shooting. All of the shooters, when they focused at the correct point in their cycle, showed a marked decrease in overall brain activity and their heart rates dropped in a corresponding pattern sometimes as much as 20 beats per minute lower than their baseline. This state mind/body unity would only last for about 3 seconds before the brain waves and heart rate measurements started to quickly diverge and the optimum shot window collapsed.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

montigre said:


> I just returned from the coaches symposium held at the OTC in Colorado Springs and had the pleasure to discuss some of these issues with the top USAT coaches and sports psychologists in the country. All of them indicated that even the elite shooters often began their focus too early in their shot cycles.
> 
> Coach Lee presented slides of his work with some of his archers where he had them wired to EEG and heart rate monitors while they were shooting. All of the shooters, when they focused at the correct point in their cycle, showed a marked decrease in overall brain activity and their heart rates dropped in a corresponding pattern sometimes as much as 20 beats per minute lower than their baseline. This state mind/body unity would only last for about 3 seconds before the brain waves and heart rate measurements started to quickly diverge and the optimum shot window collapsed.


I had the pleasure to spend a whole day with Guy Krueger - USA Archery’s High Performance Manager and Assistant Head Coach, back in December at a TSAA sponsored class at A&M. He said "we put too much emphasis on aiming". Aiming is but a small part of the process. Very important but small. 

How many times in an archery shop have you seen a newbie get a new bow and the first thing the shop does is put up a target? I tell them we can put up a target later - lets work on how to shoot the bow first. Lets focus on all the steps that lead to aiming. Heck, a 2 year old can aim.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

In early 80's in Eastern Europe when I was at my peak of my match air rifle competition, we trained not just slow down the heart beats but to slow the blood flow or possibly "skip" one pump stroke. It was couple months ago my wife woke me up in the middle of the night, she got scared listening how my heart pumps when I am in deep sleep... 
I had friends in combined pentathlon and winter biathlon who had to run and do crazy efforts still to shoot as one of the events. I believe these Olympic games still exist, wondering how their folks training physically and mentally....I figure myself mentally to calm down I must go quick-tired or have some good drink


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, I know in the past for me i was so scared of getting to the end of my shot that I would work for months to get my shot where it happened at a nice predictable time in the first half of my shot window and then as it progressed into the later half my comfort level mentally would really freak me out and confidence was lost. Then you get to relying on letting down which to me is better then just dumping the release.

Since then I have really adopted the levi morgan simple drill of coming to anchor and just holding until I can't hold anymore, I do this indoor and outdoor and only a few times per day and sometimes I may go a few days and not do it. For me in the beginning I suffered and didn't know what to do or expect and I hated the feeling of just standing there but over time it became just another drill. 

I can say that I don't really do that one much anymore because I have made my own Padgett drill, I come to anchor now and I settle in and start counting to 10 and I just float on the target and once I get to 10 I then release my thumb peg and execute my shot. I do that one 5 times or so and then go get my arrows and do the second variation, I come to anchor and settle in and release my thumb peg and start counting to 10 and then I execute my shot normally. 

My little variation from the levi morgan drill is much more enjoyable to me and I can now come to anchor and settle in and be perfectly happy with a normal executed shot or it the shot clock is counting down and I need to just continue with my current shot and shoot out the back of my shot window I am perfectly happy there also. I am letting down much less now than in the past.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

montigre said:


> I just returned from the coaches symposium held at the OTC in Colorado Springs and had the pleasure to discuss some of these issues with the top USAT coaches and sports psychologists in the country. All of them indicated that even the elite shooters often began their focus too early in their shot cycles.
> 
> Coach Lee presented slides of his work with some of his archers where he had them wired to EEG and heart rate monitors while they were shooting. All of the shooters, when they focused at the correct point in their cycle, showed a marked decrease in overall brain activity and their heart rates dropped in a corresponding pattern sometimes as much as 20 beats per minute lower than their baseline. This state mind/body unity would only last for about 3 seconds before the brain waves and heart rate measurements started to quickly diverge and the optimum shot window collapsed.


Gail,
That is very interesting! How did they identify the correct point of the cycle to begin focus?
Thanks,
Allen


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Allen,
I can only pose an educated guess how they came to the exact point in the cycle as I was not present when the testing was being done, but the resulting data were a very compelling indication that most of use were starting our focus far too early in the process.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

montigre said:


> I just returned from the coaches symposium held at the OTC in Colorado Springs and had the pleasure to discuss some of these issues with the top USAT coaches and sports psychologists in the country. All of them indicated that even the elite shooters often began their focus too early in their shot cycles.
> 
> Coach Lee presented slides of his work with some of his archers where he had them wired to EEG and heart rate monitors while they were shooting. All of the shooters, when they focused at the correct point in their cycle, showed a marked decrease in overall brain activity and their heart rates dropped in a corresponding pattern sometimes as much as 20 beats per minute lower than their baseline. This state mind/body unity would only last for about 3 seconds before the brain waves and heart rate measurements started to quickly diverge and the optimum *shot window *collapsed.


So the shot window information I was raked over the coals for the other day. Optimum shot windows do exist.... 

This is really cool information. I've seen some of the heart monitors I believe on videos of the world cup shooters a year ago I think it was. Cool to hear some inside information on what was found!


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> Not here. Sorry.


Is there a secret handshake most of us don't know about?:wink:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

thunderbolt said:


> Is there a secret handshake most of us don't know about?:wink:


No, I'm just not interested in posting any detailed information on this sub-forum anymore.


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

I respect that choice, but it's too bad it has gotten to a point on this sub-forum that some ideas can't be expanded upon without it turning into a debate on who is qualified to give advice or share...


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

It's been that way since the beginning. IMO, there's nothing wrong with questioning the perspective from which information is given. 

That has nothing to do with it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jelmore said:


> Cbrunson, Can you explain this "settling in" period in more detail? And what exactly your looking at for cues in your sight picture. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks.





thunderbolt said:


> I respect that choice, but it's too bad it has gotten to a point on this sub-forum that some ideas can't be expanded upon without it turning into a debate on who is qualified to give advice or share...


Read cbrunson's #4 reply. Read it, just don't look at the words.... More gospel there than you know....


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## jelmore (Sep 24, 2013)

Ye. Been trying to work on this. This little settling in period is something I had never heard mentioned before. I always noticed that almost all the best shooters all take a LONG time to fire their arrow especially in 3d.I just assumed they were admiring how still their pin was before firing. This, I believe, is one of the little things that can go unnoticed to an inexperienced eye. Fwiw, I realize that there are some miniscule adjustments, probably a lot of them are subconscious, to make in this steadying process. Again just trying to figure it out. But appreciate the fact that somebody would at least mention it. I completely understand not wanting to go into the details about it.


SonnyThomas said:


> Read cbrunson's #4 reply. Read it, just don't look at the words.... More gospel there than you know....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The key thing of settling in for me is to never force it. The pin simply settles or it doesn't. I can wait to see if it will settle but there is nothing I actively do to make that happen (which isn't saying I shoot a passive shot). If it won't settle or the initial float is all wrong I'll let down and try again. When I do restart I'll say something light hearted to myself like "that's not my float" or "now where did I put my float?" It removes any judgement. That float simply wasn't mine.
Keep in mind you need to know your float and be comfortable with it for this to be a totally passive process. 

Grant 

Grant


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

grantmac said:


> The key thing of settling in for me is to never force it. The pin simply settles or it doesn't. I can wait to see if it will settle but there is nothing I actively do to make that happen (which isn't saying I shoot a passive shot). If it won't settle or the initial float is all wrong I'll let down and try again. When I do restart I'll say something light hearted to myself like "that's not my float" or "now where did I put my float?" It removes any judgement. That float simply wasn't mine.
> Keep in mind you need to know your float and be comfortable with it for this to be a totally passive process.
> 
> Grant
> ...


Very helpful, I now have a new perspective. Trying to fix my float while in the act of shooting has been the story of my life. Now that I can't I'm starting to finally learn something. In those rare occations that I haven't controlled the float I've shot extremely well. Problem is, I never knew why and could not repeat. I hope this sticks.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

grantmac said:


> The key thing of settling in for me is to never force it. The pin simply settles or it doesn't. I can wait to see if it will settle but there is nothing I actively do to make that happen (which isn't saying I shoot a passive shot). If it won't settle or the initial float is all wrong I'll let down and try again. When I do restart I'll say something light hearted to myself like "that's not my float" or "now where did I put my float?" It removes any judgement. That float simply wasn't mine.
> Keep in mind you need to know your float and be comfortable with it for this to be a totally passive process.
> 
> Grant


That is helpful! I can foresee myself doing a lot of letting down at first, but gradually less and less. Did you experience that? 
Allen


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

aread said:


> That is helpful! I can foresee myself doing a lot of letting down at first, but gradually less and less. Did you experience that?
> Allen


At first when I was really not familiar with my float I definitely let down fairly frequently.
It seems that with time I'm better able to determine if my initial setup was wrong and needs a restart vice just needing a little time to settle. I've become more patient.
It seems to me the excellent shot window exercises which Padgett has posted are really about training confidence and patience more than anything else.

Like many here I'm still working on being a 60x shooter but it's little things like this which help me see just how possible that is.

Grant


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

grantmac said:


> I've become more patient.


FWIW, there are just some things you have to learn before you can understand other things. You can't read an article or get advice and run right out and perform it.

All of these things, a smooth release, holding it in the middle, shooting high scores, all of them require a boat-load of *patience* to exercise them effectively and perform with confidence.


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

OK, have to chime in. Most top shooters don't aim. The dot going to the center is done by simply concentrating on the center of the X, the dot will find its way. I will notice when a top archer gets hot, their shot sequence is extremely repeatable, if you were to clock Sergio in Vegas, each shot took within a second of the last, with no let downs. 
Actually, the hot shooter will take less time.
When it all clicks like that, you feel you could take a nap while the dot is settled dead center. All you need to do is pull when you want. 
It should be noted that proper form, and strength must come first.
I compete in this sport for those moments when it all clicks. I had a practice 900 round that I cleaned last week. The disappointment was it wasn't at a tournament.



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