# how to decide between competition categories



## vexahlia (Mar 29, 2019)

Sorry if this isn't quite the right place to ask. I've been talking to people at my local range after Vegas and finally come around to maybe competing within the next year, but I'm in a weird situation with registering. I'm nonbinary and my state ID reflects this. I'm not currently medically transitioning, but I have taken hormones in the past. I've emailed a little with USA Archery, but they weren't sure and ultimately told me I can pick between men's and women's competitions. Obviously, I want to be fair both to myself and to the people I'm competing with, which leaves me at a loss. Are there any other trans or nonbinary archers here? Any advice? I've used the search and that turned up some really virulent hate speech, not anything useful. As far as actual shooting categories, that's fine, it's just figuring out which gender I should register for.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Even though in archery the very top male and female archers are very close in score, the depth of the field is still much deeper for males than females. If you want to be fair to the people you are competing with, you have to decide if you have a physical advantage competing with females or are at a physical disadvantage competing with males. Select accordingly.

Vegas is a special case in that you can enter the flights, which are not gender-specific, so you don’t have to make that choice. Only the Championship categories are designate male or female. 

What equipment category do you shoot?


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

As far as Vegas and the NFAA they follow the USOC requirements and medical certification is required to prove at what point the transition is at.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

vexahlia said:


> Sorry if this isn't quite the right place to ask. I've been talking to people at my local range after Vegas and finally come around to maybe competing within the next year, but I'm in a weird situation with registering. I'm nonbinary and my state ID reflects this. I'm not currently medically transitioning, but I have taken hormones in the past. I've emailed a little with USA Archery, but they weren't sure and ultimately told me I can pick between men's and women's competitions. Obviously, I want to be fair both to myself and to the people I'm competing with, which leaves me at a loss. Are there any other trans or nonbinary archers here? Any advice? I've used the search and that turned up some really virulent hate speech, not anything useful. As far as actual shooting categories, that's fine, it's just figuring out which gender I should register for.


Go with the gender you identify as, not what they try to dictate to you. If you get any pushback, remind them that you determine your gender identity and not them; be insistent if you have to. If they're good folks, they'll pay you the respect you're due and let you register. If they refuse, I guess that's a matter where you'll have to decide whether to escalate it or not. But my suggestion is don't settle for anything less than the respect you deserve no matter what. 

My .02,

lee.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

Stash said:


> Even though in archery the very top male and female archers are very close in score, the depth of the field is still much deeper for males than females. If you want to be fair to the people you are competing with, you have to decide if you have a physical advantage competing with females or are at a physical disadvantage competing with males. Select accordingly.
> 
> Vegas is a special case in that you can enter the flights, which are not gender-specific, so you don’t have to make that choice. Only the Championship categories are designate male or female.


^^^ +1


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Lee it is not that simple as I stated above it is more serious than you think, local tournaments are 1 thing but National tournaments require much more. Don't kill the messenger


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

archer_nm said:


> Lee it is not that simple as I stated above it is more serious than you think, local tournaments are 1 thing but National tournaments require much more. Don't kill the messenger


I'm only saying that who we are as persons isn't a matter of fairness to others. We are who we are and no one else has the authority to say we're something else than who we are; that's our decision alone. 

I understand there are medical requirements and rules to the game, but I think something like gender identity shouldn't have to figure into especially archery competition. But that's just how I see it and my .02.

lee.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Did you not read the OP's post? They said "Obviously, I want to be fair both to myself and to the people I'm competing with, which leaves me at a loss." If it's not clear in the rules, the decision is thus left to the person. The suggestion I posted above, I think, is as fair as is possible.

This is not something I'm very familiar with, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that a nonbinary person is defined as someone who does not have a gender identity, so they can't use your advice to "go with the gender you identify with".


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## BurgerWalrus (Aug 29, 2019)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression men and women were separated because of obvious physical advantages men would have over women. Those advantages may be arguable or moot, that's not for me to say. Not sound coarse, or obtuse, but I think the easiest solution is to register with the class whose reproductive organs you were born with.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Stash said:


> Did you not read the OP's post? They said "Obviously, I want to be fair both to myself and to the people I'm competing with, which leaves me at a loss." If it's not clear in the rules, the decision is thus left to the person. The suggestion I posted above, I think, is as fair as is possible.
> 
> This is not something I'm very familiar with, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that a nonbinary person is defined as someone who does not have a gender identity, so they can't use your advice to "go with the gender you identify with".


Aabsolutely wrong. In no way at all do you not have a gender identity if you identify as nonbinary. In fact generally, simply because you don't identify as merely one of male or female does not imply you have no gender identity - gender is much more fluid than that. And of course, this makes my point that persons who don't identify in a "traditional" category have to deal with situations where this is either unknown or there's a significant prejudice. In my view, it shouldn't have to be that way, but there it is. 

There's even a Wiki on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

A person's gender is what they say it is, not what you or I might say it is.

lee.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

> Non-binary people may identify as having two or more genders... *having no gender*... moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity... being third gender or other-gendered


You're right, I should have said "...a nonbinary person _*can be*_ defined as someone who does not have a gender identity". Or more correctly, identifies as having no gender. I don't know if they are the same thing.

I suspect the OP fits into the second category, which is why the question was posed in the first place. Wondering if they might have a response to what's been posted so far?


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## Bow Rider (Jan 16, 2015)

Vexahlia, Shoot with the boys. If they cry about being beat by a girl, laugh in their face and go shoot with the girls instead. If the girls then complain, just tell them about the boys crying. Fist bumps all around.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Stash said:


> You're right, I should have said "...a nonbinary person _*can be*_ defined as someone who does not have a gender identity". Or more correctly, identifies as having no gender. I don't know if they are the same thing.
> 
> I suspect the OP fits into the second category, which is why the question was posed in the first place. Wondering if they might have a response to what's been posted so far?


I doubt there's such a thing as a human being without some form of gender identity. Only that there are a lot more categories than the traditional male and female as far as I know. 
As to what category the OP is in, I'd say it's the category they say they're in.....

lee.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

I think you're asking the right questions. There is more evidence than not , to suggest that physical attributes of biological males (strength or reaction time or something else?), have an advantage. Biological males on average score higher than biological females, and older people (seniors) score lower than groups in their 20's and 30's. If you were born a biological male, you'll probably be faster and stronger than a biological female. If you're born a biological female and take hormones, you will have a strength / endurance advantage from chemicals. Women / girls categories were created to give females a space to not have to compete against males (that have physical advantages). 

In my opinion, based on competitive fairness. If you were born a biological male, or take testosterone, you should shoot with the males, otherwise do whatever you want.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

pherrley said:


> I think you're asking the right questions. There is more evidence than not , to suggest that physical attributes of biological males (strength or reaction time or something else?), have an advantage. Biological males on average score higher than biological females, and older people (seniors) score lower than groups in their 20's and 30's. If you were born a biological male, you'll probably be faster and stronger than a biological female. If you're born a biological female and take hormones, you will have a strength / endurance advantage from chemicals. Women / girls categories were created to give females a space to not have to compete against males (that have physical advantages).
> 
> In my opinion, based on competitive fairness. If you were born a biological male, or take testosterone, you should shoot with the males, otherwise do whatever you want.


This isn't in accordance with the views of the LGBT community, though, so I'd be extremely cautious about giving or taking this advice. For example, when you no longer have male organs, you're no longer a "biological male", and similarly for female according to the trans community. 

Basically, get ready for a real can of worms if you go this or any other route to discriminate against someone, including the OP. It's a lot more complicated than one might think. 

In plainer language, be extremely careful about attempting any discriminatory practice, period full-stop, as it might land you in a world of beeswax. My suggestion, if I were the consultant on this, would be to stay 1000 miles away from it and allow the individual to enter the division they say they belong in concerning their gender.... 

lee.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Looks like someone opened a can of worms and went underground.


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## T3RMNTR (Jul 15, 2010)

archer_nm said:


> Looks like someone opened a can of worms and went underground.


 Bingo!

Although, 

Earthworms*are simultaneous hermaphrodites, meaning*worms*have both male and female reproductive organs. ...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Yeah, but it’s the person who opened the can of worms who went underground, not the worms themselves. Who of course probably went underground too, but this is about the person who opened the can, not the worms.


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## T3RMNTR (Jul 15, 2010)

Agreed. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## GeorgiaArcher01 (Oct 7, 2018)

I agree that if you think you have a physical advantage over females then you need to compete with the males


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## vexahlia (Mar 29, 2019)

Sorry! I didn't mean to do that - I've actually been really pleasantly surprised by the supportive responses. As I mentioned in the original post, I'd found AT a long time ago (this username has been registered for a year) and then found a lot of really upsetting transphobia on here. I posted and then I got scared to come back and see what answers I'd received as I was worried it would be unpleasant.


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## vexahlia (Mar 29, 2019)

To clarify: I'm agender, I would best describe my gender identity as "no, thanks". I'm leaning toward registering with the men for now but don't expect to compete any time this year (I'm also a full-time student and applying to medical schools this cycle, so I'm a little busy with that and don't have time to really train for competition anyway!), so it's more of a hypothetical question at the moment. I really appreciate the advice.


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## vexahlia (Mar 29, 2019)

Also, Stash, I'm currently doing oly but I'm considering barebow. I'd love to get into freestyle compound but cost is a major issue. If we go by my actual scores I should be competing against the 8 year olds, lol.


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## 1diamondshooter (Jun 3, 2019)

Just my 2 cents but I do not think it is right for a transgender male to compete against women.
Flame me if you want but that is my opinion.


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## mreffner (Feb 26, 2018)

I don't know what to say to remedy the situation and don't know what category you should shoot in but I wanted to congratulate you for staying with the sport and hope that you get more support to keep shooting!


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

1diamondshooter said:


> Just my 2 cents but I do not think it is right for a transgender male to compete against women.
> Flame me if you want but that is my opinion.


It's not really a matter of opinion. Transgender women aren't men, they're women. So...

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

vexahlia said:


> To clarify: I'm agender, I would best describe my gender identity as "no, thanks". I'm leaning toward registering with the men for now but don't expect to compete any time this year (I'm also a full-time student and applying to medical schools this cycle, so I'm a little busy with that and don't have time to really train for competition anyway!), so it's more of a hypothetical question at the moment. I really appreciate the advice.


I have a couple acquaintances who identify similarly, and it is true that most of the rest of the world isn't equipped to deal with non-binary gender identities. I guess since I'm not in your shoes I couldn't advise one way or the other either, except to say that whatever choice you make, insist on it if they push back... That's what my friends in the trans community do and I think that's the best way to overcome the prejudice... 

lee.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

lees said:


> *I'm only saying that who we are as persons isn't a matter of fairness to others. We are who we are and no one else has the authority to say we're something else than who we are; that's our decision alone. *
> 
> 
> I understand there are medical requirements and rules to the game, but I think something like gender identity shouldn't have to figure into especially archery competition. But that's just how I see it and my .02.
> ...


I don't disagree.... but a line has to be drawn somewhere. 20 years ago, practically no one would believe we as a society would EVER get to a place where a person could choose their gender. What will be next??? Age??? Can someone choose to compete against kids?? 

I completely agree that I don't have the authority or right to tell someone what gender they think they are... but if you want to compete, there needs to be a rule preventing men from dominating women's sports. 

IMHO, the only FAIR ways to handle this would be to add a "Trans" class. Any other solution would be less than ideal to someone. Admittedly it's to a lesser degree in shooting sports but other women's sports would be destroyed (powerlifting, softball, hockey, cycling, basketball, soccer etc) by allowing men to compete.

Until then, participants need to compete in the gender assigned at birth.

As the father of a female athlete, I would hate to see my daughters hard work be eclipsed or minimized by a boy who decides to be a girl.



1diamondshooter said:


> Just my 2 cents but I do not think it is right for a transgender male to compete against women.
> Flame me if you want but that is my opinion.


100% agree with the caveat "in most sports".

If a person born a male, they will be "by default" stronger and faster than a female.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> IMHO, the only FAIR ways to handle this would be to add a "Trans" class. Any other solution would be less than ideal to someone.


Ok, well, let's do that then. Define the properties of this "trans" class. What are all the characteristics that constitute "trans"? How will you actually verify that an individual claiming this "trans" category actually meets those qualifications?


> Until then, participants need to compete in the gender assigned at birth.


Ok. So now how are you going to verify "gender assigned at birth"? You're going to have to ask everyone in the registration line what their "gender assigned at birth " is aren't you? Otherwise, how will you know anyone's "gender assigned at birth" is "off" or has been "switched" or is "wrong" or whatever the requirement is?


> If a person born a male, they will be "by default" stronger and faster than a female.


What about females "born female" who are stronger than your daughter? How will you discriminate them from persons "born a male" who are stronger than your daughter? How will they have to register? How about persons "born a male" who aren't as strong as your daughter?

Remember, you're at a busy archery tournament. And there's a line behind these individuals you're trying to interrogate about all this starting to form now; they want to get signed in and go to the practice range and they're getting testy. What are you going to do?

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> I don't disagree.... but a line has to be drawn somewhere. 20 years ago, practically no one would believe we as a society would EVER get to a place where a person could choose their gender. What will be next??? Age??? Can someone choose to compete against kids??


Actually we never really had that right, and that’s what the current movements are showing us. Even in The Good Old days, if someone challenged us on whether they were male or female, about all you could do is just be obstinate and refuse to offer them service or whatever. You never had legal recourse if you disagreed back then.

Age can be verified but even then fake id’s is a big industry and if you look younger than you are, it’s easy to cheat the system. 

But for gender? As you can see from my prior post, that’s the kind of morass you have to get into if you choose the path of discrimination.

It’s like sexual orientation. If a guy says he’s straight, but you think he’s gay, how do either of you prove it? In line checking in at a tournament no less? 

Not that simple.......

Lee


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

lees said:


> Ok, well, let's do that then. Define the properties of this "trans" class. What are all the characteristics that constitute "trans"? How will you actually verify that an individual claiming this "trans" category actually meets those qualifications?
> 
> This would be up to the sanctioning bodies... but an over simplified version of the rules could be:
> 
> ...


Like I said before... They [insert non-male/female/trans gender here] are free to live their lives as they see fit. But, that doesn't make them the gender they claim to be and allowing them to compete as something they are NOT, is not only unfair, outside of the shooting sports, it's unsafe. I used to think a lot like you...(not caring about gender and sports) then I saw a 5'10" 150# 14 yr old boy "crash" (very illegally) the plate at a 14u softball game. The girl behind the plate was 5' maybe 100#... It was absolutely brutal!!! I couldn't help but wonder how I would react had that been my daughter behind the plate. 

There are a few high profile stories that pop up from time to time... the Powerlifter in the picture I shared, the cyclist, the HS track team etc....does anyone remember hearing about Team USA Women's soccer team getting crushed by a 15u boys team a few years ago??? 

In MOST cases, men are bigger, stronger and faster. When comparing elite athlete to elite athlete, there is no real comparison and forcing young women to compete against trans people is not only unfair, it is un-safe.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

lees said:


> Actually we never really had that right, and that’s what the current movements are showing us. Even in The Good Old days, if someone challenged us on whether they were male or female, about all you could do is just be obstinate and refuse to offer them service or whatever. You never had legal recourse if you disagreed back then.
> 
> Age can be verified but even then fake id’s is a big industry and if you look younger than you are, it’s easy to cheat the system.
> 
> ...


Gender can also be verified.... 

My point is...as silly as it sounds, why can't someone "feel like a 10yr old" when they are 30??? You are advocating that a biological male is a female because he "feels" like one.... It's no different.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

> This would be up to the sanctioning bodies...


This is your proposal, not theirs. So you’re responsible for it, correct?


> but an over simplified version of the rules could be:
> Trans Class - All participants who do NOT biologically fall into the Male or Female class.


Define “biologically falls into male or female”. Define exactly the conditions under which an individual doesn’t “biologically fall into male or female”. How will you verify the compliance with those conditions? You need to be specific here.



> Umm... I guess the presence of an "Adam's Apple" would be a dead give away....


 nope. Lots of males have hardly visible Adam’s apples and some women have pretty good ones. What’s the threshold of a male Adam’s apple and what’s not - where’s that line?
Are you going to measure everyone’s AA with calipers on checkin to the shoot?


> If my daughter gets beat by another biological female, then she gets beat... this happens every day in women's sports. It's at least a somewhat level playing field.


You still haven’t defined what “biological female” means, much less demonstrated that they’re “on average” stronger than your daughter. And how are you going to enforce compliance with your rule?



> As far as "weaker" males than my daughter, they have their own division and it wouldn't be an issue if they stayed there. Like I said before, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.


Where is that line? Be specific.


> Obviously I wouldn't want to subject people to an "inspection" but, if a dude in a skirt (not a kilt) shows up and tries to register as a female, they should be further "scrutinized".


No that’s not obvious at all. The “cheaters” are going to be all over the map in terms of how male or female they’re going to look to you. You need to be specific about who you’re going to “scrutinize” and by what criteria. Who gets “Inspected”? How will you recognize the cheaters? What’s your fallback plan if he decides he doesn’t want you looking down his pants at his unmentionables?

You should get the idea by now. This is the morass of questions and stuff you will have to wade through if you decide to go down this road of discrimination. You’ll be spending all your time getting punched in the mouth asking people to pull down their panties and show you their family jewels and not a lot of time enjoying archery.

Seriously, this is what your life would be like if you really committed to discrimination like this. I can think of a lot funnier things to do, so I’d recommend against going thisaway...

Lee


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> Gender can also be verified....


How? Be specific.

Lee


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Since it is clear that most of you will not be the one whom will make the decision on this issue and this was posted as a hypothetical thread. Maybe it is time to put it to rest. IMHO


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

archer_nm said:


> Since it is clear that most of you will not be the one whom will make the decision on this issue and this was posted as a hypothetical thread. Maybe it is time to put it to rest. IMHO


Well this is just by way of showing that this isn’t a simple issue with a simple answer. The idea is, if someone wants to go this way and try to discriminate, they just need to be aware of the potential snake pit they’re about to jump into....

If you think I’m annoying and petulant..... get ready...... buyer beware as they say.

Lee


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

lees said:


> How? Be specific.
> 
> Lee


Female:
- XX Chromosome
- Absence of a penis
- Testosterone levels below threshold 

Male:
- XY Chromosome
- Has a penis
- Testosterone levels above threshold

The idea that someone gets to "choose" their gender and competitively put others at a disadvantage with that decision should not be allowed. 

I genuinely feel bad for everyone with Gender Dysphoria. I couldn't imagine going through life the way they do... but that doesn't mean they should be given special treatment. (allowing biological males to compete directly with biological females IMHO counts as special treatment) 

No amount of "feelings" will remove the advantage that testosterone gives men over women.

So to answer your question... If I were tasked with making this decision for [insert sanctioning body here] the rules would be this:

1) Athletes must compete in the division assigned to their gender identified at birth.

2) Athletes wishing to compete in a division different from their birth gender may compete in the "Trans Division" until the transition is complete.

3) Athletes who have completed their respective transitions may apply to be recognized as their "preferred gender". These applications will be reviewed and approved on a case by case basis. (the standards would be similar to the IOC)

Note: This discussion prompted me to do a little more research into this issue... Admittedly, my stance has softened a little but the basic premise still exists. Biological men have no business competing directly with women in almost every sport....


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> Female:
> - XX Chromosome
> - Absence of a penis
> - Testosterone levels below threshold
> ...


Ok, let's see what we got: if we go your way, to register for an archery tournament, every individual will have to:
- present some sort of medical proof/certification of their genetic makeup. 
- demonstrate compliance with sexual organ requirements (male - has a penis, female... ??)
- a current blood panel showing their testosterone levels. 

You will have to:
- be able to interpret and understand the documentation of the individual's genetic makeup.
- verify the authenticity of that documentation.
- verify compliance with the sex organ restrictions.

As for the first and second, what qualifications will be needed to understand this documentation? How will you verify its authenticity? At a minimum, you're looking at some sort of medical certification to qualify to do this work. This is going to be a tough one to fill just for volunteers at an archery tournament.
As for the third, how will you verify compliance? A visual inspection? A manual inspection? At a minimum you're looking at a legal/constitutional (14 amendment) problem with this one, in particular laws against the invasion of individual personal privacy. In the general case, this could be life-threatening - a lot of those shooters are big and strong, and every one of them has a lethal weapon in their hands. And when properly ticked off, they could become a big problem for you...  

Yeah, this is a great idea.....


> I genuinely feel bad for everyone with Gender Dysphoria. I couldn't imagine going through life the way they do...


I genuinely feel bad for you, if you really truly think that your ideas here are practical, legal and safe. I couldn't imagine what your life would be like if you actually tried to impose something as hairbrained as this at the next tournament at your local club. 

Seriously, your life will be extremely difficult if you try to discriminate in this way. That's by design - discriminatory practices like what you're proposing here should make your life difficult and expensive and not a lot of fun. That's why you're much better served to drop the idea altogether and simply let your archers say who they are and what their gender is, and you stay out of it and not worry about what's in other people's pants and so on. 

Archery is supposed to be fun, remember? 

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> Note: This discussion prompted me to do a little more research into this issue... Admittedly, my stance has softened a little but the basic premise still exists. Biological men have no business competing directly with women in almost every sport....


Well you’re not done yet, unfortunately. Practically none of the terms you’re using here have working definitions. For example, “Biological male” - what does that mean exactly? And as a simple practical matter how do you verify that status for any individual legally and so on?

Again my point here isn’t to change your mind, but only to show you what you would become responsible for if you wanted try to put your ideas into practice. I’m just sayin’ I wouldn’t try it if I were you. 

Lee


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

lees said:


> Ok, let's see what we got: if we go your way, to register for an archery tournament, every individual will have to:
> - present some sort of medical proof/certification of their genetic makeup.
> - demonstrate compliance with sexual organ requirements (male - has a penis, female... ??)
> - a current blood panel showing their testosterone levels.
> ...


So your solution to men competing in a women's division is to allow it based on that persons declaration on their gender? How is that fair or fun for the women? 

Further, it appears that your position is "disallowing special privileges to certain people is discriminatory". I disagree.

Again, my position goes beyond archery and I believe it should be inclusive in all sports where classes are segregated based on gender. 

Again, I argue there is no difference choosing your gender and choosing your age.








lees said:


> Well you’re not done yet, unfortunately. Practically none of the terms you’re using here have working definitions. For example, “Biological male” - what does that mean exactly? And as a simple practical matter how do you verify that status for any individual legally and so on?
> 
> Again my point here isn’t to change your mind, but only to show you what you would become responsible for if you wanted try to put your ideas into practice. I’m just sayin’ I wouldn’t try it if I were you.
> 
> Lee


Dude... You're arguing just to argue....(Yes, I just assumed your gender)

Just because society has redefined gender to be this craziness that we read about in recent history... doesn't make it correct. The IOC has had similar policies in place since the early 2000's and they revisit them from time to time as needed. As far as verification, at the local level I guess I'd have to go by the gender on someones drivers license (because I damn sure am not going to want to look or grope someone). This being said, if I were working the desk at a local event and a person who is clearly a dude tries to register in a women's class, I'd refer them to the tournament director or in the case that I was in that position, I'd tell them to register in the class appropriate to their gender, shoot for "fun" or leave.

99.4% of the population identify with the gender identified at birth... So we're talking about .6% of the population. (according to google) Using the 2020 Lancaster Classic as an example out of 2200 shooters, statistically there would be 120 Transgender participants. Assuming a 50/50 split of trans men/women. That's 60 women who could've been displaced for the elimination/championships simply because they "said" they were women.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

fOR MORE INFO I SUGGEST GOOGLING Castor Semenia. She is a trans woman who was the subject of a lot of IOC thinking. Their solution is to enforce an upper limit of testosterone in two blood tests a year apart for those with a Y chromosome (cheek swab). If I remember right, it take about a year of testosterone suppression for genetic males to lose the muscle mass and strength advantage.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> So your solution to men competing in a women's division is to allow it based on that persons declaration on their gender?
> How is that fair or fun for the women?


We already went over this: how do you verify the gender claim now? You can't and you never were able to - strange but true. Back to our example, if someone in your line for registration at your hypothetical tournament contests your judgement of their gender, all you can really do is just disagree and be obstinate and refuse to grant the person service or whatever. You didn't actually accomplish assigning them their gender, even though you think you might have.

How do you know that person is a "man"? If they argue with you, how are you going to prove them wrong? They could just be dressing how you think a man dresses and just look really manly, but in fact they could be lying to you. And underneath, they're what you consider to be a woman.

How would you know? How would you verify their claim is false?

What you're not getting here is that someone else's gender isn't up to you. It's up to them. It's none of your business. Too bad, but it's not. You don't have the privilege of dictating who someone else is, though you might think you do. They are the ones in charge of who they are, not you. 

So that's the point of this whole thing. It's not about pitting "men" against "women", it's about who has the say over who a person is, including what gender they are. Like I said, it's a privilege you only think you have, but you don't actually have in reality. And as a sheer practical matter, there's really no feasible way for you to even be able to take over that privilege, even if it wasn't morally reprehensible for you to do so. It's not only wrong, you couldn't do it for just practical reasons even it if wasn't wrong.

At this point, the line is super long and people are getting ticked off because you're tied up arguing with this person about their gender. So, like I asked before, what do you do?
lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

HalonShooter60X said:


> Just because society has redefined gender to be this craziness that we read about in recent history... doesn't make it correct.


Well, they're not consulting you about it and your approval isn't required. Or mine, or anyone else's for that matter. It's called "liberty" and it's just life in the good 'ol US of A, where people get to do what they want and be what they want without having to get our permission. And we just have to grin and bear it. 

The times they are 'a changin'... 

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Macdoc18 said:


> fOR MORE INFO I SUGGEST GOOGLING Castor Semenia. She is a trans woman who was the subject of a lot of IOC thinking. Their solution is to enforce an upper limit of testosterone in two blood tests a year apart for those with a Y chromosome (cheek swab). If I remember right, it take about a year of testosterone suppression for genetic males to lose the muscle mass and strength advantage.


What about genetic males on palliative hormone therapy for advanced (incurable) cancer - their testosterone levels go to and stay at pretty close to 0? What if they claim they're female and present their Test levels in compliance with your rule, but also refuse to tell you they're on that therapy (which is also none of your or anyone else's business) - are you going to summon their medical records too? On what basis will you do that? They're in compliance with the rule - test levels near zero for the last X years.... ?? Blood draw and panel at registration? And then how will you decide the exception to make, if any?

lee.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

lees said:


> What about genetic males on palliative hormone therapy for advanced (incurable) cancer - their testosterone levels go to and stay at pretty close to 0? What if they claim they're female and present their Test levels in compliance with your rule, but also refuse to tell you they're on that therapy (which is also none of your or anyone else's business) - are you going to summon their medical records too? On what basis will you do that? They're in compliance with the rule - test levels near zero for the last X years.... ?? Blood draw and panel at registration? And then how will you decide the exception to make, if any?
> 
> lee.


I don't see to many people like this lining up to compete.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Macdoc18 said:


> I don't see to many people like this lining up to compete.


You're not looking hard enough - you'd be quite surprised. There are a lot of men in this condition and they're still in fine health, engaging in normal activities including archery. So, what about them?

lee.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

lees said:


> You're not looking hard enough - you'd be quite surprised. There are a lot of men in this condition and they're still in fine health, engaging in normal activities including archery. So, what about them?
> 
> lee.


Look I thought we were talking about genetic males who identify as women and and want to compete as a woman. Let's not get too far astray


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Macdoc18 said:


> Look I thought we were talking about genetic males who identify as women and and want to compete as a woman. Let's not get too far astray


This isn’t astray at all. Seriously, if you want to practice gender discrimination this is exactly the kind of exception you have to expect to have to hassle with. So what would you do? This individual looks like a man to you but claims a female gender and shows you medical record proof the they meet your testosterone requirements. They’re following your rules. So on what basis will you rule them out?

Lee


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

lees said:


> This isn’t astray at all. Seriously, if you want to practice gender discrimination this is exactly the kind of exception you have to expect to have to hassle with. So what would you do? This individual looks like a man to you but claims a female gender and shows you medical record proof the they meet your testosterone requirements. They’re following your rules. So on what basis will you rule them out?
> 
> Lee


This is obviously not straight forward, but most people here are trying to give answers to what they see as fair, and you seem to argue, that it's difficult; so don't. Since you seem to claim any judgement of trying to define others genders in discrimination, I'm curious where you would stand on this completely hypothetical case. Mike Tyson, in his prime reveals that he identifies as female, and would like to participate in the female boxing division. Would you be okay with this? And if not, under what circumstances would you allow it?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

pherrley said:


> This is obviously not straight forward, but most people here are trying to give answers to what they see as fair, and you seem to argue, that it's difficult; so don't.


Exactly. Discrimination based on a prejudice is supposed to be difficult. It's supposed to make your life hard and take all the fun out of it when the ones you want to discriminate against push back. The idea is to discourage the behavior, not reward it or just let it slide. 
All I'm doing here is just showing what one would be up against if one decides they want to try to do this. I'm just trying to talk you out of it beforehand, is the basic idea here, before you might get the idea to try it for real...



> Since you seem to claim any judgement of trying to define others genders in discrimination, I'm curious where you would stand on this completely hypothetical case. Mike Tyson, in his prime reveals that he identifies as female, and would like to participate in the female boxing division. Would you be okay with this? And if not, under what circumstances would you allow it?


Until I saw a solid reason not to allow it presented, I'd be fine with it.

lee.


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## Macdoc18 (Dec 28, 2012)

lees said:


> This isn’t astray at all. Seriously, if you want to practice gender discrimination this is exactly the kind of exception you have to expect to have to hassle with. So what would you do? This individual looks like a man to you but claims a female gender and shows you medical record proof the they meet your testosterone requirements. They’re following your rules. So on what basis will you rule them out?
> 
> Lee


let them shoot


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