# Best Instictive Archery Video?



## rimrockhunter (Feb 19, 2015)

What the best instructional Instinctive archery Video?


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

That may be a rather difficult question to answer. Instinctive archery although a simple concept is more mental than physical. Because of this, how exactly to do it can be a little bit different from person to person. Granted proper form is rather consistent, the way you learn to find your arrows going where they are supposed to can be elusive.

I would suggest going on you tube and search instinctive archery. There are many people who talk about and demonstrate it. Each in a little different way. Take all of it with a grain of salt until you find an explanation that makes sense to you.

I am rather new at this, there will likley be others with far more experience who may have a better solution but this is what has been working well for me.


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## rimrockhunter (Feb 19, 2015)

Captain837 said:


> That may be a rather difficult question to answer. Instinctive archery although a simple concept is more mental than physical.
> 
> More MENTAL than physical...................thats for sure. Once you understand the Process then the only thing that stands in your way is you.
> .


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

For me the big gee wizz moment came when I realized that in order for it to work I had to have my visual focus as well as my mental focus on the target and nothing else. If they both are not in line, like the sights of a gun, you will not find your mark. 

Once I realized this all I had to do was get my form correct and shoot enough arrows from enough different distances and angles that my mind can become as accurate as my eyesight (20/10). This I am still working on and will surely be for a very long time.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Leave Youtube and all the "instinctive" archers with silly names and good editing skills and buy Masters of the Barebow.

YouTube is your friend but it takes a while to see who has the credentials and who are just good at self-promotion


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## rimrockhunter (Feb 19, 2015)

Once I realized this all I had to do was get my form correct and shoot enough arrows from enough different distances and angles that my mind can become as accurate as my eyesight (20/10). This I am still working on and will surely be for a very long time.[/QUOTE]

I can relate to that...........Focusing on the target before and after the shot That sure has made a difference in my shooting. Im really consistent at 20 yards keeping all my shots in a 7" circle 25yds within a 8" circle and now Im feeling confident at 30 yards........ Once you do enough shooting your brain will be on Auto and make the adjustments for you.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

marcelxl said:


> Leave Youtube and all the "instinctive" archers with silly names and good editing skills and buy Masters of the Barebow.
> 
> YouTube is your friend but it takes a while to see who has the credentials and who are just good at self-promotion


I am guessing you are taking a jab at that Lars guy... funny, in all the how to instinctive archery searching I have done his name nor his videos were never near enough to the top to be worth even watching. 

It is not hard at all, even for someone new to instinctive archery, to tell the difference between the fakes and those who have good content to offer.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

rimrockhunter said:


> I can relate to that...........Focusing on the target before and after the shot That sure has made a difference in my shooting. Im really consistent at 20 yards keeping all my shots in a 7" circle 25yds within a 8" circle and now Im feeling confident at 30 yards........ Once you do enough shooting your brain will be on Auto and make the adjustments for you.


my big challenge at the moment is getting my 1st shot to be more accurate. Currently my 1st one or two shots tend to be a little off, then I make adjustments and start hitting my mark with nice groups to follow. Not ideal when hunting is my primary aspiration.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Captain837 said:


> I am guessing you are taking a jab at that Lars guy... funny, in all the how to instinctive archery searching I have done his name nor his videos were never near enough to the top to be worth even watching.
> 
> It is not hard at all, even for someone new to instinctive archery, to tell the difference between the fakes and those who have good content to offer.


Nah, he is what he is and as long as he I am not tagged in 50,000 video shares from my non-bow-shooting friends on my Facebook then he can have his 5 minutes.

There's plenty of others on Youtube that wind me right up and have had even block them (and sometimes their "hilarious" alter-egos) from my FB & Youtube accounts to stop them showing up on there. Seriously if you are taking it on yourself to be an authority, advice giver and voice then I need credentials be that coaching experience or high level competition, even a solid hunting background.

But that's the thing about the internet, heck, if a Police Officer can be a 12yr old girl then I guess that you can be a world beating "instinctive" archery sage with a year or two under your belt!


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## rimrockhunter (Feb 19, 2015)

]my big challenge at the moment is getting my 1st shot to be more accurate. Currently my 1st one or two shots tend to be a little off, then I make adjustments and start hitting my mark with nice groups to follow. Not ideal when hunting is my primary aspiration.[/QUOTE]

With me its the opposite....................great tight groups until that last arrow comes up.....................


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

rimrockhunter said:


> What the best instructional Instinctive archery Video?



Probably no such thing as one 'best' but, I'll throw out a few ideas. First off, Captain 837 is giving good information although it might seem confusing to a beginner. Instinctive shooting depends completely upon a mental commitment to exactly where you want the arrow to land. A connection between your brain, eyes and hands. Simple eh?

You might check out John Schultz, Howard Hill, Byron Ferguson for starters. They don't do instructional videos but, there's a lot to be learned from watching them shoot and listening to what they do say on the subject of shooting. Then there's a guy known on the tube as Greyarcher and another called Wolfie or something to that effect. Those guys all know their stuff and you will discover others along the way.


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## larry tom (Aug 16, 2012)

FWIW, I would recommend anything from Jimmy Blackmon or Arne Moe. Regards, Larry T


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Captain837 said:


> my big challenge at the moment is getting my 1st shot to be more accurate. Currently my 1st one or two shots tend to be a little off, then I make adjustments and start hitting my mark with nice groups to follow. Not ideal when hunting is my primary aspiration.


Comes with time but, how much is a little off? Is the first shot close enough to be lethal on a deer? If so, no worries.  You might try paying special attention to the first shot as if you were actually shooting at a live deer in a hunting situation. Pretend some if it helps. Remember, it's a mental game. That first shot needs to be intentionally separated from the rest of a practice session. It's really the only one that counts.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

larry tom said:


> FWIW, I would recommend anything from Jimmy Blackmon or Arne Moe. Regards, Larry T



Why? Neither is an instinctive shooter.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Masters of the Bare bow is probable the best info out there 

Lots of different styles to expose your self to 

Forest as for Grey Archer 

He is last I heard throwing in the towel......... I can see why his following has fallen off as archers expect a little more out of their archery his stuff is kinda weak 

I like Wolfie and he does a good job


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

So much talk. No videos.
Here is 1 that i think is good startup video
http://youtu.be/TUfAm-4YPw0


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Why? Neither is an instinctive shooter.


Neither was Hill or Schultz.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I would agree that youtube isn't the best for an aspiring archer. I've watched some "instructional" videos that clearly demonstrate a total lack of skill and understanding. Don't get me wrong, there are some viable and informative vids but you really have to wade through some bs to find them. 

I've watched most of the vids already mentioned. When you watch them pay attention to the commonalities amongst them. Look at the shooters and compare what you see. Much of what separates the videos are style differences but if you look past that you'll see most shooters have good, basic form. 

For what it's worth I liked the masters of bare bow and ferguson ' s video.


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

larry tom said:


> FWIW, I would recommend anything from Jimmy Blackmon or Arne Moe. Regards, Larry T


yes


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

larry tom said:


> FWIW, I would recommend anything from Jimmy Blackmon or Arne Moe. Regards, Larry T


Me too.

Both demonstrate solid methods for shooting a bow which aren't necessarily specific to any one method of aiming. While aiming is obviously important, I tend to think is the "easy" part of shooting a bow. If the rest of the shot is repeatable the arrows all go to the same place. Pointing it at the target isn't all that hard.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Masters of the Bare bow is probable the best info out there
> 
> Lots of different styles to expose your self to
> 
> ...


I'm not a doctor and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn express last night but the last Grey Archer video I looked at gave me the impression that the poor guy is going through some serious emotional issues.

I wish him the best and I hope he gets better but I can't sit through it.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

Wolfe has been one of my favorites so far. My only complaint was he spent more time talking then shooting in some of his videos. I also enjoy watching some of the Bearpaw videos. There are some from the instinctive archery school and from the competitions they go to. Most of it is in a language I do not understand but I am moreso there to see them shooting.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> I'm not a doctor and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn express last night but the last Grey Archer video I looked at gave me the impression that the poor guy is going through some serious emotional issues.
> 
> I wish him the best and I hope he gets better but I can't sit through it.


I agree 

Very odd he is an archer that talks about hunting with a bow that has only ever hunted stumps  

I wish him well but he is not someone I would suggest to a new archer to watch or take information from about shooting


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

"Instinctive" aiming is a result, not a method, IMHO. Watching videos of others apparently doing it won't really help you do it. You can't really tell if the person in the video is really doing it or not either. Do yourself a favor and use an aiming system. There are a few different ones to try. You will progress much faster and not be limited to very short distances. With time and lots of practice, it becomes fairly automatic and you stop consciously thinking about it, and then you can call it "instinctive". Bear in mind that those who are good at "instinctive" have been shooting a long time and unable to articulate how they do it. Nobody pops out of the womb and hits bullseyes. The accuracy of our inherent ability to point a finger at things, which is the basis/evidence for an instinctive aiming capability, is limited.

One thing you do not want to get into, if you want to be accurate beyond 10-20y, is snap shooting and/or being overboard. If you only want to hunt and do so at very short range, then you would be OK short-drawing and snap-shooting a heavy bow. It is all about goals and expectations. You can have fun with any method or discipline.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Look up Jeff Kavanaugh on youtube, the guy is a hell of a shot, give you well thought out insight on instinctive archery, gives you a perspective that might work for you..highly recommend watching him on youtube


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Good points J

Watch archers like Blackmon, Jenkins etc 

Form is key an aiming system IMHO is secondary


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> Look up Jeff Kavanaugh on youtube, the guy is a hell of a shot, give you well thought out insight on instinctive archery, gives you a perspective that might work for you..highly recommend watching him on youtube



:thumbs_up Agreed, a good source that I forgot to mention. Just don't expect to be at his level in the beginning.
It's true that Jimmy Blackmon is a great shot and has lots of really interesting videos, he's primarily teaching gap shooting. I still think that he and many others are actually shooting instinctively but talk about a 'gap'. I suppose the fact that they transition their focus to the target only is not taken into consideration.


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## BSting (Mar 9, 2015)

Captain837 said:


> My only complaint was he spent more time talking then shooting in some of his videos. .


As a noob wading through vids, I am put off by the lack of editing.
Most 15 minute rambles could be cut down to 1 or 2 minutes of useful info and demonstration.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BSting said:


> As a noob wading through vids, I am put off by the lack of editing.
> Most 15 minute rambles could be cut down to 1 or 2 minutes of useful info and demonstration.



Except for the fact that instinctive shooting is very simple to do but extremely hard to explain in words. Some things just need to be said. In one or two minutes I can tell you how to do it and then demonstrate what I just said and a beginner will probably be more confused that ever. It's just not that simple. 
The OP asked about instructional videos for learning instinctive shooting. I could name one that is considered by some to be a great source and for that particular individuals method of shooting it is. But, the instructor talks about instinctive shooting and what he actually teaches is something entirely different in my opinion. 
The person who desires to learn how to shoot instinctively would probably get more from an hour shooting with a real instinctive shooter that a thousand dollars worth of instructional videos.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

JParanee said:


> I agree
> 
> Very odd he is an archer that talks about hunting with a bow that has only ever hunted stumps
> 
> I wish him well but he is not someone I would suggest to a new archer to watch or take information from about shooting


Yeah I've seen his videos, weird fellow, he rants a lot too which in case of the subjects he rants about do not apply to him lol


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> Yeah I've seen his videos, weird fellow, he rants a lot too which in case of the subjects he rants about do not apply to him lol


I can agree that he can be a little hard to listen to but, there's good information to be had if you're patient and don't worry about whether it's stumps or elk he's hunting. It's a non issue. For instance, most people forget to mention that the bow, arrow and shooter must be tuned to hit where your eyes are looking. Without it everything else is pretty much a waste of time and very frustrating. He tends to go into detail about such things.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

j.conner said:


> "Instinctive" aiming is a result, not a method, IMHO. Watching videos of others apparently doing it won't really help you do it. You can't really tell if the person in the video is really doing it or not either. Do yourself a favor and use an aiming system. There are a few different ones to try. You will progress much faster and not be limited to very short distances. With time and lots of practice, it becomes fairly automatic and you stop consciously thinking about it, and then you can call it "instinctive". Bear in mind that those who are good at "instinctive" have been shooting a long time and unable to articulate how they do it. Nobody pops out of the womb and hits bullseyes. The accuracy of our inherent ability to point a finger at things, which is the basis/evidence for an instinctive aiming capability, is limited.
> 
> One thing you do not want to get into, if you want to be accurate beyond 10-20y, is snap shooting and/or being overboard. If you only want to hunt and do so at very short range, then you would be OK short-drawing and snap-shooting a heavy bow. It is all about goals and expectations. You can have fun with any method or discipline.


X2 
Start out close, work on form no aim. if intuitive or experience aim is your goal then have several small black spots spaced evenly on the target face from which you can master hitting with one arrow each. Once mastered, Then move back 1 yard and repeat. Your brain will tell which method you adapt too better. As far as video. Watch the one about the basics. Aiming or not is only one of several step in your shot sequence. Each being equally important.
Dan


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I can agree that he can be a little hard to listen to but, there's good information to be had if you're patient and don't worry about whether it's stumps or elk he's hunting. It's a non issue. For instance, most people forget to mention that the bow, arrow and shooter must be tuned to hit where your eyes are looking. Without it everything else is pretty much a waste of time and very frustrating. He tends to go into detail about such things.


Forrest I agree with you on a lot of subjects about instinctive style of aiming but not on this 

He talks more than he shoots  

I would love to see him on a target face 

He speaks of what is needed in the hunting woods but has never as far as I know bowhunted 

It's silly 

I'm sure he is a great fellow but IMHO he is not who I would ever recommend a new archer to watch 

Jeff Gavagine is another story 

Great guy and knows what it takes to get it done in the field 

Wolfie wins tournaments and is an impressive shot


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You should start here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAEn5cAS6V4

Because that is how it works anyway.

-Grant


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

grantmac said:


> You should start here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAEn5cAS6V4
> 
> Because that is how it works anyway.
> ...


Or save yourself 23 minutes and understand heavier arrow/tip combinations Will have a bigger arc than lighter ones and get back to learning about instinctive archery as opposed to gap shooting and or using sights.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Captain837 said:


> Or save yourself 23 minutes and understand heavier arrow/tip combinations Will have a bigger arc than lighter ones and get back to learning about instinctive archery as opposed to gap shooting and or using sights.


Clearly you need a rewatch and to let it sink in.

-Grant


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Clearly you need a rewatch and to let it sink in.
> 
> -Grant



Not really, I watched all of it and found nothing other than what I stated above to be relevant. Please enlighten me on what I missed.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Captain837 said:


> Not really, I watched all of it and found nothing other than what I stated above to be relevant. Please enlighten me on what I missed.


That video is precisely how "instinctive" archery really works.
The difference is that an "instinctive" archer limits themselves to the distances that gap covers and the gap shooter learns gaps for other distances.

Set-up your equipment for the distances you shoot then learn the gap until you can see it without having to measure and you've arrived at "instinctive" archery. You've just done it in a much faster way then the usual feel-based system of shooting until the arrows find the middle on their own.

However you will always be more consistent if you acknowledge the gap at some point in your shot sequence.

-Grant


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

grantmac said:


> That video is precisely how "instinctive" archery really works.
> The difference is that an "instinctive" archer limits themselves to the distances that gap covers and the gap shooter learns gaps for other distances.
> 
> Set-up your equipment for the distances you shoot then learn the gap until you can see it without having to measure and you've arrived at "instinctive" archery. You've just done it in a much faster way then the usual feel-based system of shooting until the arrows find the middle on their own.
> ...


The instinctive archers only limitations are the shots they have not seen yet. If you want to learn a specific distance or angle, you need to shoot it. If you are focused on anything other than the target like the arrow or a sight, you are not shooting instinctively. If you use gap shooting or sights as a crutch to try an speed up the process it may work for you (I am not going to assume my mind works the same for all others as mine does) but it does not work for me. For me to learn the distance I have to be completely focused on the target both visually and consciously or I fail to watch the entire shot and register it to memory.

From what I have read so far (including on this forum at the top where it explains the difference between the various methods of aiming) I am doing it exactly as intended and for me it is working.

I do agree however that the video you posted is very helpful for one hoping to improve their game via gap shooting or using pins.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

To be fair, gap shooting and sight shooting is by far more accurate than instinctive shooting for most people. It's like shooting a gun from the hip versus shooting using the sights. Although some have mastered it and are very accurate with it by and large competitive archers prefer sights/gap when they are allowed to use it. The thing is many people are not shooting instinctively for the accuracy it provides. It is enjoying the amazing journey involved in showing yourself what your mind is capable of. 

If I wanted the most accurate method, I would be I using a compound bow with sight pins and all the gadgetry associated with it. But that was not what I was looking for. Just like this thread was looking for "the best instinctive archery video" not the most accurate archery one.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Captain837 said:


> To be fair, gap shooting and sight shooting is by far more accurate than instinctive shooting for most people. It's like shooting a gun from the hip versus shooting using the sights. Although some have mastered it and are very accurate with it by and large competitive archers prefer sights/gap when they are allowed to use it. The thing is many people are not shooting instinctively for the accuracy it provides. It is enjoying the amazing journey involved in showing yourself what your mind is capable of.
> 
> If I wanted the most accurate method, I would be I using a compound bow with sight pins and all the gadgetry associated with it. But that was not what I was looking for. Just like this thread was looking for "the best instinctive archery video" not the most accurate archery one.



:darkbeer:


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

I think that gap shooting isn't fun. Its a pain in the arrsh to to go on woods whit tapemesure. I brefer that i just look at target and release arrow. Thats instingtive 100% or what it is posible to be max out. 
I think that greyarcher1 don't hunt with the bow is fact that in sweden is not alloud and to go "safari" is realy expensive. And everybody that want to archer don't want to kill with it. You can still go stumping and i think that its more fun than shoot target on flat ground.
Grey is werry good when he can just speak whole video without any editing. Thats a skill that same best tv-personal have and they make miljons/year. But not with archery because there is lot of i knowitall. But that would be another story. I didn't meen to argue with anybody with this but i just speak it openly and it may seem that i meant somebody personaly, but no, i didn't . Happy archery, what ewer you style will be.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

ismo131 said:


> I think that gap shooting isn't fun. Its a pain in the arrsh to to go on woods whit tapemesure. I brefer that i just look at target and release arrow. Thats instingtive 100% or what it is posible to be max out.
> I think that greyarcher1 don't hunt with the bow is fact that in sweden is not alloud and to go "safari" is realy expensive. And everybody that want to archer don't want to kill with it. You can still go stumping and i think that its more fun than shoot target on flat ground.
> Grey is werry good when he can just speak whole video without any editing. Thats a skill that same best tv-personal have and they make miljons/year. But not with archery because there is lot of i knowitall. But that would be another story. I didn't meen to argue with anybody with this but i just speak it openly and it may seem that i meant somebody personaly, but no, i didn't . Happy archery, what ewer you style will be.


Considering I am currently celebrating my 12th wedding anniversary and have been drinking heavily since noon, that almost made sense to me. Either way I did laugh my ass off. Now I have to try to explain to my wife (who is in the shower) what the hell is so funny. 

Cheers! ; )


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JParanee said:


> Forrest I agree with you on a lot of subjects about instinctive style of aiming but not on this
> 
> He talks more than he shoots
> 
> ...




Joe, I suppose we must agree to disagree. The thread is about instructional videos and I am under the impression that giving instruction requires a lot of talking and possibly some demonstration. 
Meanwhile I took the opportunity to watch a Greyarcher video, which I hadn't done in a long time, and he did talk about focus. While he was talking he made a small spot on his target face and shot six arrows from five meters with very good results. At the same time he spoke about release quality and it's effect on accuracy. An eight or nine minute video that appeared to be very informative and precise. In my opinion that's good instruction, free btw.
Now, I'm not sure if we have any way to know if the guy has ever hunted anything but stumps. I really don't see the significance of the issue if his instruction is good and gets results. After all, he has been shooting instinctively for many years and can definitely kill some stumps.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Forrest 

If someone that has been shooting for that long can't group arrows at 5 meters with any style of aiming than they would be rather pathetic ....no ?  

remember I am what most would call an instinctive shooter but I much prefer the term subliminal gap shooter 

I've just done something enough times that all I have to do is concentrate on a spot and if my form is correct the arrow goes there 

Aim small ....miss small 

What bothers me is that people think that to shoot in what most call an instinctive style they have to bend over hunch up and blaze a hole at the target before they ever get the bow up 

I've hunted enough and seen enough shooters that advocate that style and they always end up embarrassing themselves on a course 

You can shoot with what is called an instincts style with good form etc 

I always respect your comments and I appreciate what you are saying but on Grey we will disagree


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## larry tom (Aug 16, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Why? Neither is an instinctive shooter.


Forest, while that's true, there's a lot about form that I believe would be useful. Larry T


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## chevota841 (Nov 24, 2014)

When I'm up late watching YouTube, I gravitate towards wolfie's videos. I like the way he explains things and his whole attitude toward shooting.


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

Easyest thing in World is not watch some YouTube video you don't like.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I just watched all of Wolfie's videos concerning "how-to" shoot. I thought they were good and he pretty much says the same stuff that Jimmy and Arnie say.

I didn't notice him going into aiming much, although, I note his really high anchor. In his video on "anchor" he also mentions the change in view of the arrow between a high and low anchor. Why would an "instinctive" archer care?

I use the arrow to aim so a high anchor really helps me. In fact, the anchor I'm using now is pretty much identical to his.

I don't usually measure my gaps but I know they're there and what it looks like. I certainly don't bring a tape measure to the woods. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ismo131 said:


> Easyest thing in World is not watch some YouTube video you don't like.


Of course. But when somebody asks for opinions on which videos are "good", they're going to get opinions.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> I just watched all of Wolfie's videos concerning "how-to" shoot. I thought they were good and he pretty much says the same stuff that Jimmy and Arnie say.
> 
> I didn't notice him going into aiming much, although, I note his really high anchor. In his video on "anchor" he also mentions the change in view of the arrow between a high and low anchor. Why would an "instinctive" archer care?
> 
> ...


MGF I agree 

I never new how much my subconscious was referencing the arrow till I switched to three under and my shooting got more consistent 

It showed me my mind was using the arrow more than I thought


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

MGF said:


> Of course. But when somebody asks for opinions on which videos are "good", they're going to get opinions.


And to complite the throug. 
If somebody ask good instingtive archery video why tell them what is bad in your opinion. Just tell the good ones.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

ismo131 said:


> And to complite the throug.
> If somebody ask good instingtive archery video why tell them what is bad in your opinion. Just tell the good ones.


Because pointing out bad information can really save someone a lot of time in the long run 

Misinformation helps no one 

When I started out there was nothing really out there about it 

What information that was.....was really not that good and it spawned a whole generation of bend over and snap shoot and pluck archers 

Today we have learned that you can shoot much more acurately with any aiming style as long as good form or an attempt at good form is approached 

So I feel if someone asks me a question I owe them what IMHO is a good answer


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

There is one that think that there is only one way to shoot arrows. I think that there is several good ones. "Just do it multible times and you gono master it"IMO 
Personaly i like greyarcher1-style because its fast and fast. But i don't piss on somebody else style. I just say gabing aint fun for me. Was that i say to make you jump up.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon discusses "instinctive" shooting in a few videos and I think he points out some relevant points.

One is that he talks about gaps becoming automatic.

Another thing he mentions is how some people can just pick up a basket ball and toss it through the hoop...and other people can't. He talks about having started shooting instinctively but not being able to get as good as he wanted to be and how there was a time when nobody wanted to talk about aiming. 

It could be that a lot of people are just going to have an easier time and enjoy archery more by learning to aim by some more "formal" process.

My own opinion is that the beginner shouldn't get too bogged down with aiming. Until you get form and process under some amount of control, you aren't going to hit much of anything regardless of how you aim. 

Once you reach a certain point, aiming becomes a BIG deal. Do it however you want but you aren't going to shoot like Dewayne Martine or John Demmer unless you're really good at it. LOL and they can hit deer too.

Again, my own opinion is that the beginner would be better off not pigeon-holing themselves with labels like "instinctive", "gap" or whatever. I think we all have more fun when we hit what we're shooting at.

What I don't understand is that whenever the subject comes up the likes of Howard Hill and John Schultz are always mentioned. Maybe I missed something but I never heard or read where either claimed to shoot "instinctively". Howard Hill talked/wrote about the "split vision" thing (sounds like gaping to me) and Schultz talks about what Hill taught him (split vision?).

Is this something old and "traditional" we're talking about or something that's relatively new? The history of shooting (in general) is replete with the quest for better ways to aim.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Ismo ????

The question I answered was to Forrest 

And that was that I would not recommend Greyarcher to a new archer learning to shoot 

I stand by it


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ismo131 said:


> And to complite the throug.
> If somebody ask good instingtive archery video why tell them what is bad in your opinion. Just tell the good ones.


Discussions often cover both pros and cons.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ismo131 said:


> There is one that think that there is only one way to shoot arrows. I think that there is several good ones. "Just do it multible times and you gono master it"IMO
> Personaly i like greyarcher1-style because its fast and fast. But i don't piss on somebody else style. I just say gabing aint fun for me. Was that i say to make you jump up.


I am (was) an engineer by trade. I don't believe that there's only one way to do anything.

I don't know if Greyarcher is fast or not. As an archer and hunter, I'd say that speed has it's place. When shooting jumped birds or rabbits (usually with a shotgun), you sometimes have to be "fast". When shooting squirrels with rifle or bow or shooting deer with a bow, I need to be extremely deliberate. Squirrels are fidgety ducking and dodging little creatures and, unless they are very close, I won't do a good job of hitting them unless I take extreme care in setting up my shooting position. When using a rifle that means getting a bench rest stable shooting position and almost always some kind of rest. Doing that in the woods isn't always easy but that's the way to hit them.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ismo131 said:


> "Just do it multible times and you gono master it"IMO


My experience is that doing something poorly over and over only makes you really good at doing it poorly.

Is it true that Einstein defined "insanity" as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

There is no porly when you repeat it. Then you lear how not do it. And for me grey and some other YouTube videos that i watch in last ½ year have given some good pointers what no to do. Then it step forvard.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gentlefolk?....I've been doing my best to NOT click on this thread for a couple days now and?...I haven't...proud of myself for that. 

But here I am...one day off...not feeling up to snuff so stayed home from Church and a group ride and not even feeling good enough to wanna go out and shoot in the heat..bored?....curious?...so here I am...and yep...I faltered. :laugh:

So time to "Weigh In"!!! 

First let me say I don't champion one over the other with regards too the ever on-going "Gap VS Instinctive" conversations we often times see come up...

*"But I respect them both as they both have their respective places."*

I also feel that having the ability to employ either in an effective manor is of great value to the all around archer....and for proof?....I've read a few times over the years from some highly respected forum members who by far favor a more disciplined form and aiming system?...that when they got too the "Pop-Up" section of a competition they wished they had polished up their instinctive game a bit more...conversely?...if you are of Instinctive abilities only?...don't bother signing up for any tournaments where shots are much over 30-40yds unless your a darn good (if not "GIFTED") instinctive shooter unless you like losing and looking for arrows. :laugh:

That said?....those are the reasons I do my best to attempt to acquire and maintain a smorgasbord of skill sets as it pertains to archery...with an open mind where nothings ruled out and it's all good. 

And unless you have a teleprompter?...I also think that well worded explanations are often times better than video's as the option of editing for concise clarity is but a few keystrokes away and here's how I explain my Instinctive Shot Sequence...

















get it? 

To me?...Gap aiming is an extremely conscious event that is pre-empted with all of the step-by-step physical aspects...."One Motion"...."One Thought"...at a time.

Where "Instinctive"?: is completely and entirely turned over to the far more powerful and "Multi-Tasking" thought processes of the Sub-Conscious.

I often times look at this difference as an analogy between the human mind an a computers operating system...The Gapper in me uses a windows type operating system where the program is grabbed 640K at a time...thrown into cache...and then processed...where the Instinctor in me operates more like a UNIX based system with a strong Graphics Front....where it grabs the entire program and throws it up on screen in one fell swoop.

And they both have strong advantages in their own right and they both have specific dis-advantages pending shot situation and surrounding circumstance....there's been many a responsible bow hunter who's watched the buck of a lifetime walk because they were but a few yards further out than their skill set would allow for....at the same tolken?...there's been many a trophy lost at major tournaments via lost points at the "Pop-Up" event.

So wouldn't it be nice to know both?...whether it's a jumped Buck that stood there and blew for a second looking back before they hauled butt or?...starring down a small, stationary foam doe at 45yds...I think it would be great to have both tools in your pouch and not just a hammer OR a screwdriver.

That said?...I'm working ferverantly on on my solid form/gapping skills...but meanwhile?...it looks like I have a good grip on my hammer. :laugh:

So speaking of vids?...here's a few I made...

Snapping at "Prime Time"...






and here's one I was really proud of...it was the first "First Shot Event" ever here at A.T. and our illustrious member (and great friend) Joe Paranee "made the call"....a business card at 20yds...first shot of the day...no warm ups...just nock, draw and shoot...






and here's a vid regarding the best way I roughly describe it...






Now that said?...there are many others who are far, far better than I....the top one that comes to mind is Jeff Kavanaugh...seek out his vids as imho?...they (and he) are great to watch if for nothing else but entertainment and actually seeing what can be achieved.

And in closing?...I would caution you this...DO NOT ATTEMPT TO COMBINE these two distinctly different aiming systems and/or shooting styles...that's a decision that MUST happen prior to drawing the string...if you mix them?...they are like oil and water and your mind will become a swirly mess for that given shot.

Hope this helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

ismo131 said:


> There is no porly when you repeat it. Then you lear how not do it. And for me grey and some other YouTube videos that i watch in last ½ year have given some good pointers what no to do. Then it step forvard.



Repeating failure many times is just a lot of failure and doesn't necessarily result in success.

The last 1/2 year? That long? When I started shooting there was no youtube...or personal computers, for that matter. Even then, you had all sorts of people publishing all kinds of total nonsense in the magazines. Now, you don't need to find a magazine willing to publish your nonsense. All it takes is a few clicks of a mouse and you can have a youtube channel.


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## MTColl28734 (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm only months into trad shooting, so I'm in the same boat. I don't have access to a coach or even an experienced trad archer (EVERYBODY shoots compounds around here). I've watched a ton of YouTube videos, some good, some awful. I found 3 go-to guys who have helped me tremendously: Jeff Kavanagh, Chris Billingsgate of Billingsgate Archery, and "Grizzly Jim" from Archery Adventures. There are a few second-tier guys (Wolfie, Greyarcher, S3), but the first 3 are head, shoulders, hips and knees above everybody else. They're not only good archers, but good teachers.

As for Lars, he's a showman and an entertainer. Nothing wrong with that, but he can't teach you anything. He's fun to watch, though.


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## chevota841 (Nov 24, 2014)

MGF said:


> My experience is that doing something poorly over and over only makes you really good at doing it poorly.
> 
> Is it true that Einstein defined "insanity" as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?


I had a music teacher tell me many years ago, "practice makes permanent ". If you do something long enough it turns into muscle memory and becomes very hard to correct.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MTColl28734 said:


> I'm only months into trad shooting, so I'm in the same boat. I don't have access to a coach or even an experienced trad archer (EVERYBODY shoots compounds around here). I've watched a ton of YouTube videos, some good, some awful. I found 3 go-to guys who have helped me tremendously: Jeff Kavanagh, Chris Billingsgate of Billingsgate Archery, and "Grizzly Jim" from Archery Adventures. There are a few second-tier guys (Wolfie, Greyarcher, S3), but the first 3 are head, shoulders, hips and knees above everybody else. They're not only good archers, but good teachers.
> 
> As for Lars, he's a showman and an entertainer. Nothing wrong with that, but he can't teach you anything. He's fun to watch, though.


I took a quick look at some of those, specifically, Billingsgate.

As I said, anybody can make a video and put as much nonsense in it as they want to. I have this almost overwhelming urge to rebut some of what he says but there's just too much. I'd have to write a book. Maybe look at the book "Shooting the Stick Bow". Viper already wrote a book.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

chevota841 said:


> I had a music teacher tell me many years ago, "practice makes permanent ". If you do something long enough it turns into muscle memory and becomes very hard to correct.


Yes. There's a old saying...Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice does. 

I think this is a good topic because it's something that lots of us (maybe all of us?) have struggled with at one time or another. That is making our shooting sessions productive. It's easy to get in a mode where you're just flinging arrows. Maybe you get tired or frustrated and you just keep shooting. It's just making more bad shots, probably ingraining bad habits and possibly even risking injury.

It's like aimlessly banging on a piano expecting it to magically turn into music at some point. It probably won't.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHFb4JOb__0&feature=player_detailpage

instinctive shooting isnt just a close range game, Rick Welch proves that


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fG44nivJ0Xc
Rick is a world class instinctive archer. check out his videos on youtube, pay attention to his solid hold expansion and unorthadox release


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

airwolf said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHFb4JOb__0&feature=player_detailpage
> 
> instinctive shooting isnt just a close range game, Rick Welch proves that


Your only limitations with instinctive shooting are your muscle memory, your vision and most importantly your minds ability to put it all together to produce a consistent and accurate shot formula. How accurate the potential is going to vary widely from person to person. They often compare instinctive shooting to throwing a baseball. Well even with the best coach and perfect form not all of us will be as accurate as a major league ball player. That guy clearly has the ability to do all of the above very well. I can only hope some day to reach that level.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Here's vid on instinctively form or preformance. If you are starting out aiming anything is not any more important than you bow arm. In fact aiming problems are one of the hardest to correct. I can say this has made my life with archery a nightmare.
Focus all on your target is wrong. Focus on each step on making a perfect shot is right. Aiming is only just about looking at the target when it time to executing the shot. Joe is a very good example of transforming into better shooter.
https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=rNGJo77OAs8
Dan


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Rick Welch is not even close to an "instinctive" shooter, he's just an excellent shot who doesn't really understand how he does it.

-Grant


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Didn't bother to read through the whole thread because there's more bickering then information. There's also a lot of misinformation being thrown around as fact, and vastly different levels of expectations being misunderstood.

To the OP: some of the better videos I've watched were Masters of the Barebow vol. 3 and Rick Welch's Accuracy Factory. MBB gives you the basics of form, and Rick gives the basics of shot consistency and interpreting misses, as well as tuning the bow for your personal point of impact (ie. setting the gaps up so your peripheral sight picture works). Throw in Joel Turner's IronMind Archery and that's pretty much what helped me.

Instinctive shooting is just looking at the spot, and not the gap. Who cares? It works, and for hunting, 3D, and twenty yard paper (ie. what most of us shoot) you're looking at a very small difference between the two aiming systems. It's all in shot control and consistency. If your form is solid, you'll be consistent. If you're shot sequence and mental control are solid, you'll perform consistently under any circumstances.

It's not a big deal, a lot of people like it, and at the end of the day it's the guys with sloppy form and a nonexistent shot sequence looking for arrows in the weeds... no matter how they aim.

Since learning how to shoot properly I've come to drift back and forth between gap and instinctive. Whatever works best for me that day. When I miss, it's usually because my form was sloppy or my mental game was off. Aiming is rarely an issue.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

kegan said:


> Didn't bother to read through the whole thread because there's more bickering then information. There's also a lot of misinformation being thrown around as fact, and vastly different levels of expectations being misunderstood.
> 
> To the OP: some of the better videos I've watched were Masters of the Barebow vol. 3 and Rick Welch's Accuracy Factory. MBB gives you the basics of form, and Rick gives the basics of shot consistency and interpreting misses, as well as tuning the bow for your personal point of impact (ie. setting the gaps up so your peripheral sight picture works). Throw in Joel Turner's IronMind Archery and that's pretty much what helped me.
> 
> ...


Exactly


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

+1 although I should note that for someone like me that uses a gap if it's too big I tend to miss high....consistently!! Lol!


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Why? Neither is an instinctive shooter.



Because no matter what sighting method you use you still need good form and shooting technique. Jimmy and Arne will help out in that area.


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## BSting (Mar 9, 2015)

Why does one need good form?
If the bow is pulled to the proper drawlength and the arrow points at the target you can be on your head or back or have your arms half way twisted around and the result would be the same.
*That* would be instinctive shooting. 
Form is an aiming process, imo...not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Interesting notion. How does one get the "proper" draw length and point the arrow to the mark without consistent form--no matter if he's on his head or back?


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## BSting (Mar 9, 2015)

Imagine riding a horse with your enemy targets appearing in random scattered locations.
Lightly holding the bow whilst drawing to that perfect anchor point when the target is on the 'off' side simply can not happen.
Finding a way to point and shoot would be the priority. No prize for being pretty.

Form is a limitation to range of possibilities that allows us to focus on the task, i.e. aim, better.
Firing an arrow straight ahead, or even to the rear, is a violation of form but may be the best instinctual move one could make to achieve a shot.
Good form facilitates aiming well i.e. the first step.

Ahem..my theory based on weeks of casual observation.:darkbeer:


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## PeoplePhobic (Mar 31, 2015)

I have been working on being instinctive and frankly I find videos to be more of a detriment than an aid. They make you focus one one small part of a total process which messes up everything else. As I try to think of all the things I need to do "correctly" it all seems to fall apart for me. I am thinking that one needs to be unconscious of all the topics of these videos (stand this way, anchor that way, release this way) to truly shoot instinctively and kind of just do what works. Whether I know what that is or not. I don't know if it makes any sense at all but I do best when I am only thinking about what I want to do. When I think about how I am doing it or how I could do better I seem to do much worse. 

I dunno. I am by no means an expert on the topic but that is what I have noticed. 

That all being said there was one video about maximizing bow energy which I stumbled upon when I was still shooting my youth bow which I did find very useful. I want to say it was that Wolfie youtuber that someone else mentioned. If it didn't mess me up so much thinking about technique I'd look for his channel to be sure but it does so I'm just going to slowly back away from my keyboard now.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

BSting said:


> Why does one need good form?
> If the bow is pulled to the proper drawlength and the arrow points at the target you can be on your head or back or have your arms half way twisted around and the result would be the same.
> *That* would be instinctive shooting.
> Form is an aiming process, imo...not that there is anything wrong with that.


Whoa. You have a lot to learn grasshopper. What you said is not correct.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

BSting said:


> Imagine riding a horse with your enemy targets appearing in random scattered locations.
> Lightly holding the bow whilst drawing to that perfect anchor point when the target is on the 'off' side simply can not happen.
> Finding a way to point and shoot would be the priority. No prize for being pretty.
> 
> ...


Hmm I smell an alter....probably trollin. You gonna break out lars anderson next? Lol I can see where this is headed.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

MGF said:


> Jimmy Blackmon discusses "instinctive" shooting in a few videos and I think he points out some relevant points.
> 
> One is that he talks about gaps becoming automatic.
> 
> ...


Good post.

If you don't have the Form down no aiming method is going to help you, including sights.

I'm now Stringwalking (arrow in the spot 95% of the time) yet I've got it to a level where I don't consciously see the arrow tip, my focus is on the spot. Using this description to some it would make me Instinctive, although it's not how I would describe my aiming.

When I'm teaching novices I explain the different aiming methods and always encourage then to investigate them all to see what best suits them.

As Jimmy explains in some of his videos using the Gap once ingrained becomes Instinctive like, it took me years to get good shooting Instinctively(i.e. win at National level), when I switched to Gap it took a couple of months to get good enough not to consciously rely on the Gap i.e it was ingrained well enough to focus more on the spot and not the Gap. although Instinctive is quick to learn it can also be difficult and slow to master because you don't get the same feedback as the harder aiming methods, which you can more easily interpret a miss down to Form or aiming errors.

The Videos are good to watch for inspiration and to see what's possible with this aiming style, and what's not when some think if you burn a hole hard enough then form doesn't matter. Trust me it does and if you watch some of the Instinctive legends their form is just as good as the Gap legends. Once you master the basics of form can you then stray away and do awkward position shots but you will always need that form foundation for practice.

I suggest watching Kassai Lajos on YouTube, as horse archer his Instinctive aiming is as pure as it gets, yet watching his training of students you see a level of discipline equal to Olympic training


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree with Steve 

I was a successful archer for many years shooting what I would call poorly now 

I just new how to position myself to get close shots at game 

Once I started shooting with really good shots I noticed a commen theme all of them shot slightly different but on thing they had in commen is that they all had some type of shot sequence or form 

Sir goofing around they can do some incredible shooting without a consistent anchor etc but none would try and compete or draw down on an animal in a half ass way 

I make YouTube vids 

I show equipment I like and my shooting progress but I do not ever try and instruct 

If I did I would be doing a grave injustice to something I care about 

All these guys making instructional videos that have not won something or that have not been successful in the field are IMHO not helping anyone and they fuel the silly comments we see here from new archers 

Archery is many things to ,any different people so do what you want and watch what you want but don't be offended when people comment negatively about some of the folks out there giving shooting advice 

I first hand can but will. It give an example of a very nice man that did a lot of damage to the art of traditional shooting decades ago with his instructional books videos etc 

With the advent of the Internet it is possible to get a lot of bad info out there at light speed


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## Cold Weather (Dec 17, 2008)

Masters of the Barebow is far and away the best in my opinion. Its a 4 disc set and there are a number of trad archers profiled. It helped me tremendously.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Cold Weather said:


> Masters of the Barebow is far and away the best in my opinion. Its a 4 disc set and there are a number of trad archers profiled. It helped me tremendously.



Unfortunately, the OP never asked about how a number of trad archers do things. He asked about instinctive shooting instructional videos. 
Unfortunately, when that question is asked, or anything similar including the word 'instinctive', it always draws a crowd of people commenting on something they obviously know nothing about. Instinctive shooting is a method that most shooters fail to comprehend and feel an overwhelming urge to contest the validity of something they don't understand. That urge tends to lead to lots of misinformation.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Unfortunately, the OP never asked about how a number of trad archers do things. He asked about instinctive shooting instructional videos.
> Unfortunately, when that question is asked, or anything similar including the word 'instinctive', it always draws a crowd of people commenting on something they obviously know nothing about. Instinctive shooting is a method that most shooters fail to comprehend and feel an overwhelming urge to contest the validity of something they don't understand. That urge tends to lead to lots of misinformation.


The number of people who claim to use it, but don't understand WHY it works is far higher.

I know how it works, I use it regularly.

-Grant


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Tracker12 said:


> Because no matter what sighting method you use you still need good form and shooting technique. Jimmy and Arne will help out in that area.



LOL, of course, if only the first statement were true. I would love the opportunity to prove you wrong. Google Rufus Hussey and learn about instinctive shooting 'form'.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> The number of people who claim to use it, but don't understand WHY it works is far higher.
> 
> I know how it works, I use it regularly.
> 
> -Grant



That statement is possibly true and I have no evidence to the contrary. If you mean that you do understand how instinctive shooting works and use it regularly then, you Sir, are in an elite group. :set1_applaud:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Unfortunately, the OP never asked about how a number of trad archers do things. He asked about instinctive shooting instructional videos.
> Unfortunately, when that question is asked, or anything similar including the word 'instinctive', it always draws a crowd of people commenting on something they obviously know nothing about. Instinctive shooting is a method that most shooters fail to comprehend and feel an overwhelming urge to contest the validity of something they don't understand. That urge tends to lead to lots of misinformation.


I agree Forest 

People are lost on it .........but one common theme that needs to be repeated is that greater success will be attained no matter what aiming style is utilized if proper form is first spoken about 

The shame is that most advocates of instinctive shooting display horrible form 

So when new archers search out instruction on such they get snap shooting videos etc many displaying less than ideal form 

Instinctive aiming has nothing to do with using proper form 

I still aim the same as I always did which many would call instinctive 

Masters of the Bare bow and going to shoots and seeing what really good shots shot like helped me realize what better form can do to help my consistence 

ill put it simply like this 

if I wanted to teach a child to shoot I would drop them off with the likes of Jenkins and or Blackmon to teach them 

I would not drop them off at one of the so called instinctive aiming guys on UTube 

I teach mY kids form and than tell them aim how ever you want 

One does not necessarily correlate to the other

But the form part will make them a much better shot no matter how they choose to aim


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL, of course, if only the first statement were true. I would love the opportunity to prove you wrong. Google Rufus Hussey and learn about instinctive shooting 'form'.


I know exactly who Rufus Hussey is. He is an old timer that is hell on wheels with a slingshot. Has been shooting one all his life. If you watch him shoot (via the only video on him a news report) and listen he explains that he indeed does have form. The left hand is I charge of elevation and the right pulls the bands (always to the same length I might add). I don't know jack about instinctive aiming but, I do know good consistent form is at the foundation of accuracy. Even Fred Asbell will tell you that.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

jakeemt said:


> I know exactly who Rufus Hussey is. He is an old timer that is hell on wheels with a slingshot. Has been shooting one all his life. If you watch him shoot (via the only video on him a news report) and listen he explains that he indeed does have form. The left hand is I charge of elevation and the right pulls the bands (always to the same length I might add). I don't know jack about instinctive aiming but, I do know good consistent form is at the foundation of accuracy. Even Fred Asbell will tell you that.




Maybe you misunderstood Mr. Hussey, sorta like you missed the fact that he shoots left handed. What he said was that it dosen't matter where the drawing hand is, it's the one up front (bow hand) that matters. Oh, and first you have to SEE the jug.


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## Cold Weather (Dec 17, 2008)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Unfortunately, the OP never asked about how a number of trad archers do things. He asked about instinctive shooting instructional videos.
> Unfortunately, when that question is asked, or anything similar including the word 'instinctive', it always draws a crowd of people commenting on something they obviously know nothing about. Instinctive shooting is a method that most shooters fail to comprehend and feel an overwhelming urge to contest the validity of something they don't understand. That urge tends to lead to lots of misinformation.


Masters of the bare bow does talk of instinct shooting. Have you ever actually seen it?


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Some of those youtube vids mentioned... passionate archers but not great instructors. It's cool to see people sharing that zeal but in many cases they are giving poor advice or just don't know what they're talking about. 

Instinctive is just another term used to describe a non-reference based aiming style. It does not involve a set form or method of shooting and conversely, a particular form or style does not rule out its use. If someone says that based on a person's shooting style they can determine if you are or are not "instinctive" they are full of crap.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

JParanee said:


> All these guys making instructional videos that have not won something or that have not been successful in the field are IMHO not helping anyone and they fuel the silly comments we see here from new archers


My thoughts exactly!

I have a bit of a problem with much of this "instinctive" shooting bandwagon and some of those who ride on upon as I can't think of any of the ones who make all the noise on the net being good at any level. But they are fun to poke at on forums when their advise is "it's just like throwing a baseball" 

Anyone else on here throw their arrows in?

I shoot at as many competitive 3D's as I can and enjoy mixing and talking to as much experience as I can, I do ok and to a point I am what many would refer to as "instinctive" and one thing that I have come to believe is that noisy instinctive archers do way better on the internet than they do in real time.

I also take care of lots newbies with my club duties and there is a marked improvement when starting out if they are thinking about their shot placement and not just flinging until it clicks

I believe you can be good, great in fact doing your thing in the sub-conscious, but those guys are probably out shooting more than making and especially editing videos and trying to get noticed.

If I could make it work, I would do a Jenkins clinic……..seriously considering for next year and just watching drunk fails/idiots hurting themselves on Youtube, which would probably help my shooting more


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## bendback (Oct 30, 2013)

I've read through all the replays and am just curious why no one has mentioned Asbell's video


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Asbell's book, _Instinctive Shooting Vol. 1_, is a great (and fun) read, and is very detailed with his thought processes and the tactics he employs to shoot instinctively.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Maybe you misunderstood Mr. Hussey, sorta like you missed the fact that he shoots left handed. What he said was that it dosen't matter where the drawing hand is, it's the one up front (bow hand) that matters. Oh, and first you have to SEE the jug.


you mean sling shot hand I believe. I watched his video and he has a pretty consistent form. Again regardless there are plenty of successful instinctive archers out there but, they have consistent form.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

When you don't understand how throwing a baseball correlates to instinctive shooting, then you don't really understand instinctive shooting. Someone on a message board once said they would like to see a shooting match between Rod Jenkins and Rick Welch, Rod said bet on Welch.

Notice how all the so called good shots on the circuit today have all gravitated to metal risers? Rick still shoots wooden risered bows off the shelf and shoots them well. One champion felt good he had killed a deer over 30 yards and used a range finder to know the yardage. Welch killed a turkey on film at 52 yards with no range finder. Rick is the real deal and his shooting system is probably the best out there for hunting. If you want to learn how to shoot instinctive, Rick Welch is the way to go. If you want to try the other styles, Masters of the Barebow would be the way to go.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hank said:


> When you don't understand how throwing a baseball correlates to instinctive shooting, then you don't really understand instinctive shooting.


Exactly


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Hank said:


> When you don't understand how throwing a baseball correlates to instinctive shooting, then you don't really understand instinctive shooting.


The throwing the ball analogy is most commonly used by those who really have no idea how they shoot.

Those who do realize it has little similarity.

-Grant


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

grantmac said:


> The throwing the ball analogy is most commonly used by those who really have no idea how they shoot.
> 
> Those who do realize it has little similarity.
> 
> -Grant


You are correct in saying throwing a ball has little similarity to how you shoot a bow. In fact it has none what so ever. It does however have everything to do with how you aim a bow instinctively. It is a perfect analogy and one that covers a very difficult topic to describe otherwise. If you cannot understand that then you do not understand instinctive (aiming) archery.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Hank said:


> Notice how all the so called good shots on the circuit today have all gravitated to metal risers? Rick still shoots wooden risered bows off the shelf and shoots them well.


That may be more to do with the fact he makes wooden bows for a living, he wouldn't sell many bows if he didn't shoot his own product. When was the last time Rick won a big title? so metal risers must be doing something or has everybody just upped their game in the last 3-4 years, you seem to have more than a handful of really great shots shooting in the IBO now, makes tourneys much more interesting and fun. 

From Ricks descriptions on video I would think it's more similar to Howard's Split vision style than Instinctive but that's just my impression, Rick can call it whatever he wants he's very effective and confident with his own method.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Cold Weather said:


> Masters of the bare bow does talk of instinct shooting. Have you ever actually seen it?



Yes, actually I have seen one, otherwise I could not comment at all about it. I seem to remember one guy in a segment mentioning instinctive but, I don't remember who he was.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Having actually shot with and competed against both Rick and OSB - I question "not seeing the arrow" coupled with very high anchors and full length arrows - but hey that's just me ;-)


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Having actually shot with and competed against both Rick and OSB - I question "not seeing the arrow" coupled with very high anchors and full length arrows - but hey that's just me ;-)


If they want to call it Instinctive that's ok with me but in my own mind Instinctive is what Kasai Lajos is doing off the back of a horse, no chance for him to line the arrow up under the eye, just look and shoot. I suppose you can have degrees of Instinct and people Kasai and Addington have it in the purest form.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Captain837 said:


> You are correct in saying throwing a ball has little similarity to how you shoot a bow. In fact it has none what so ever. It does however have everything to do with how you aim a bow instinctively. It is a perfect analogy and one that covers a very difficult topic to describe otherwise. If you cannot understand that then you do not understand instinctive (aiming) archery.


I'm going to quote you from another thread:



Captain837 said:


> Success is when I enjoy shooting. A requirement for shooting to be enjoyable is for me to see improvement in my shooting every time I shoot. For now that is easy as I am still fairly new to the traditional thing.


I'm NOT new to traditional shooting. I've been competing at the State and National level successfully for over 5 years and have been shooting in the backyard for about 20 years before then.
Simply put: the baseball analogy is only used by those who do not actually understand how they shoot.

Zen teacher Shunryu Suzuki: "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

-Grant


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

I am not new to shooting, only traditional shooting. I am not even new to instinctive shooting as I have been shooting slingshots for the better part of 20 years and I have played many sports such as polocross which requires throwing a ball from a racket while on horseback at full gallop and hitting rather small targets. All of this is instinctive shooting. I have proven this point by shooting in my back yard while it is pitch black out and only my target is well lit making actually using any part of my bow as a reference point nearly impossible. Form is 100% muscle memory focus is only on the target. I have also been shooting rifles and compound bows since I was a kid so I know the difference between reference shooting and instinctive shooting. Along with that I am open minded enough to know not every aspect of shooting will have the same result for every person. We are all built differently and all of our minds work and process information differently. Archery is far too dynamic considering the human being as a variable. Yes there are widely accepted forms and techniques that show the best performance in the largest numbers but you cannot discredit great performers by saying things like "Rick Welch is not even close to an "instinctive" shooter, he's just an excellent shot who doesn't really understand how he does it." simply because they do not see, shoot or explain in a way you think an "expert" should. 

Sounds to me like you have gotten the close minded nature of an expert without the full understanding that should come with it.


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## Captain837 (Mar 29, 2015)

steve morley said:


> If they want to call it Instinctive that's ok with me but in my own mind Instinctive is what Kasai Lajos is doing off the back of a horse, no chance for him to line the arrow up under the eye, just look and shoot. I suppose you can have degrees of Instinct and people Kasai and Addington have it in the purest form.



I know a guy that shoots from horseback, he does it with a thumb release and the arrow on the opposite side of the riser. When on the ground the shoots with such a low anchor that he almost looks like he is shooting from the hip. He is amazingly accurate too.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Kassai is regarded as the best horse archer in the world, he wrote the rules for International horseback archery. he shoots med release because he lost part of his Thumb in an accident.


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## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Dude! That guy is awesome! Is he protecting his fingers with tape? Man that is some fine shooting!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

This is why these threads turn into such a load of cow manure.

Plenty of very resolute arguments coming from people who are new to traditional archery. Just flinging some arrows for a few months doesn't mean you know more than a national champion.

All the best shooters have two things in common: consistent form and a consistent shot sequence. Rick Welch insists on the same approach as any other champion- solid, repeatable form that should never be compromised to make a shot. A shot sequence that's executed on every shot. It's the exact same information you find in Masters of the Barebow vol. 3, only in Masters they show you how to find the form that works best for you as an individual using the bale and the bridge to hone it. Joel Turner's DVD walks you through understanding the mental side of your shot and where the gremlins creep in. He aims it specifically at target panic, but there are lots of shooters who don't have target panic and still need help with their mental shot control. Oh, and like MBB 3 I don't recall he mentions any specific aiming style. 

Instinctive aiming is simple. You look at the spot, not the arrow. Your brain still sees the sight picture, so learning about gapping does help instinctive shooting. It never hurts to know more, ever. Rick Welch has a style and set up that would work well for gapping. It doesn't matter where you choose to put your focus, shooting a bow and arrow is a pretty straight forward activity. We're all individual, unique little snow flakes right up until we melt. Then we're all just water.

Learning to shoot well comes from time behind your bow, refining your control and consistency- not sitting at a keyboard BS'ing about this nonsense. I think it's time for us to just drop it


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## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

I think that new to instictive can make comment coose everything is new and people are no stupid, they know what info is relevant and can try it out if it works for them. To be campion archer will help making videos but i think it demand allso some other gualitys. 
My history to archery is started in late 80's and had more less 8 sleepy years and ½ year instingtive. And somehow i feel that this AT's TA is only those who have been here from start. Newbies can ask but not comment.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ismo131 said:


> I think that new to instictive can make comment coose everything is new and people are no stupid, they know what info is relevant and can try it out if it works for them. To be campion archer will help making videos but i think it demand allso some other gualitys.
> My history to archery is started in late 80's and had more less 8 sleepy years and ½ year instingtive. And somehow i feel that this AT's TA is only those who have been here from start. Newbies can ask but not comment.



No, you have as much right to your opinion as anyone else. It's an open forum where many people from different backgrounds participate so opinions vary widely.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Been in this game 29 years, won a heap of stuff in Longbow, Compound and Recurve and still don't know everything. Just spent the last 14 months learning Stringwalking and how to tune for this technique, it's been quite a journey and a heap of fun learning this technique. 

Everyone's opinion is worthy, it's up to the reader to figure out what is valid info and what is BS. Normally the top tourney shooters have tried every variation of shooting and settled on what works best, if you take away the aiming and look at Form you see a lot more similarities than differences, it's those similarities that are key to consistent/accurate tourney shooting and is a good thing to look out for if you don't know any better and want to improve. :thumbs_up


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## shawnsphoto (Apr 13, 2007)

Look at Jeff Kavanaugh or Arne Moe. Sort through the videos.

I firmly believe there is such a thing as instictinctive. It is the way that I shoot. I look whgere I want to aim. I however have put a buzzillion arrows through my bows and know how they shoot. That said my two bows I shoot on a regular basis are a little different and it takes me a few shots to get the idea where the shot is gonna go.

I firmly believe the baseball analogy is dead on. Here is why: I pitched in Highschool, could throw well for a kid. I still can chuck a ball accurately and fast for a 45 year old guy. However I could not take another guys arm and throw with it well. I have spent years knowing what my arm can do along with my brain and can take only the knowns into account and execute a good throw.

So translate that to archery by using a bow. Knowing it well, and getting all the technical aspects like form and arrows under as best of control as possible to become the best archer you can be. As a so called instictive archer I know what my level of chose accuracy is for hunting and my archery enjoyment needs to be. I really don't care to employ a shooting strategy that will shoot an arrow out to 60 yards using the concious tip of my arrow. I wanna shoot well 40yards and in and have a great time shooting bow with my son and friends.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wWiI4O-Rts&feature=player_detailpage
this is another outstanding instinctive shooter who was a long time member on the board, his name was onesharpbroadhead and he has made quite a few videos about it and how him and guys like Rick are able to shoot this way. what most love about OSB is his no nonesense approach to shooting instinctively and helping others discover shooting abilities they may not have known they possess.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

airwolf said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wWiI4O-Rts&feature=player_detailpage
> this is another outstanding instinctive shooter who was a long time member on the board, his name was onesharpbroadhead and he has made quite a few videos about it and how him and guys like Rick are able to shoot this way. what most love about OSB is his no nonesense approach to shooting instinctively and helping others discover shooting abilities they may not have known they possess.


I miss Sharp 

I like him


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JParanee said:


> I miss Sharp
> 
> I like him



:thumbs_up


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

FORESTGUMP said:


> :thumbs_up


X2. Ken was never afraid to step up and put his methods to the test.


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## nvision (Feb 23, 2015)

Jeff Kavanaugh is awesome.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sharp is an awesome shot but sucked at communicating on Archery Forums.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

He's not a bad guy in person but, DAMN he was rough on-line.


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