# The 300 Rounds Thread - Post for advice



## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Not sure if this will take off, but as per Viper's idea. A few guys already posted in the other thread but it's somewhat full of internet miscommunication.

Shot an honest 191 today. Up from a 155 (my first 300 round). Grant helped me recently with some basics and it made a huge difference (dynamic release, elbow draw, follow-through, grip, etc).

Not sure how much info will be helpful but here goes:

Distance: 15m with a scaled down 300 target (75% size, so I assume equivalent-ish to shooting 20m).
Bow: 66", 53ish# Omega (at my full, "real" draw I draw 31", so I added 2lbs to the original),
Arrows: .340 GT Velocity Hunter's, 170gr up front, 5" parabolic feathers (straight fletched, 1 degree offset).

Notes: Mental game is something I need to work on - felt myself say "let down, no good" a few times but shot anyway=slight misses. Should have used a finger sling the whole time, only added it halfway but it seemed to make a difference with follow through. My "bad" rounds were somewhat randomly spread - beginning, middle, and end, but more toward the beginning-middle - end only had one bad round. Shot consistently better toward the end after adding a finger sling, kicking myself for not having done so as I'm relatively confident I could have broken 200 (silly to add a variable in the middle in any case).
Shot sequence seems to be improving, and starting to work on timing breathing and other things - again seemed to make a big difference.

I'll post the score if anyone is interested, and advice and criticism is happily welcomed.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Shoot your wife's bow, a lot.

Don't aim until the correct time in your sequence and use something other than aim to trigger the release.

-Grant


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I shot my 2nd 300 today from 10yds. My goals are 10yds until I hit 270 then move out to 15yds until I hit 270 then move out to 20yds. My first 300 I scored a 230 and today I shot a 249, all three rounds came in at 83. I am finding it helps me focus on my form much more. Because if it tells you anything it is form matters. Today I lowered my string elbow somewhat and concentrated on keeping my bow arm pointed at the target after the shot for better follow through. I feel I have the back tension down pretty good. What made it click for me was watching Jimmy Blackmon describing getting That "J" motion with your draw to engage the back. All and all it was another fun and informative round. 
I shot my Hoyt Horizon with 40lb BlackMax limbs for my round today. I am shooting it with a plunger/rest set up. I will have to give it a try with my Omega as well.

(CFGuy) thanks for starting this.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron, CF -

You guys are doing great, because you're learning. You're seeing a direct cause and effect relationship that's kinda hard to pick up on without the consistency of a static target and a quantifiable result. It also makes the "goals" more tangible. The scores will come. 

Grant made a very important point about triggering the release. When we shoot with Olympic rigs, the release has a trigger - the clicker. Without that, the tendency is to release as soon as the sight picture looks "sorta correct". That will usually result in a miss. If that's not an issue for you, then forget what I just typed. If it is, or you think it is - correct it right now. Don't want to dwell on it any more, if it's not an issue.

Viper1 out.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Arron, CF -
> 
> Grant made a very important point about triggering the release. When we shoot with Olympic rigs, the release has a trigger - the clicker. Without that, the tendency is to release as soon as the sight picture looks "sorta correct". That will usually result in a miss.
> Viper1 out.


VIper, 

This is very interesting because I think I may have this problem. I will often release once the site picture looks correct. I aim with the arrow tip, sort of point of aim when I am shooting paper, sometimes I'll use a heavy arrow and be point on at 20 yds. Anyway, I will often release when the site picture looks correct. Funny thing is many times it results in a good arrow, but I get too many fliers, sometimes when everything seemed spot on. I shot a 230 today at 20 yds, and I've been in kind of a rut lately stuck at this level of shooting. I also cant seem to get my 3D scores up, as I've been averaging a 240 out of 300 at unmarked 3D. I did start to implement a longer hold at anchor, and count to 8 (just picked that randomly) with the 8 triggering my release. But I think I'm holding too long and that just causes other problems. I'm shooting a 39# longbow with carbon arrows, I can hold this weight all day, so thats not the issue. I'm just wondering what you suggest regarding triggering a release (besides a clicker), and improving scores.

Thanks


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Urban - 

I guess you figured out that if you're releasing as soon as the "sight" get near or on the target, the odds are good that you may well be shooting while in motion, and not really locking on and holding on the target. (OK, that may work great for shotguns and certain types of wing shooting, but for static targets - paper or 3D, usually not so good.)

The problem is that most things we can do to correct it will require some level of reprogramming,and that's never fun. 

With my students, I indoctrinate them fairly early on to use a conscious count as part of their shot sequence. 1, 2, 3 works as that typically gives a 2 second time frame. 

In you case, I would try going through your shot sequence, bur add that 3 count, *beginning* the instant you are locked on target and nothing else is moving except for the expansion. 

If this works, great, just keep using it. The cool thing is that even in a hunting situation it can serve to calm you down enough to make a clean(er) shot and that 3 count can be as fast or as slow as it needs to be. 

If it gets tricky, for example, you start to shake or flinch during the count, doing it at a blank bale may help and would be the next course of action. 

The clicker is the last resort, because it takes time to learn to use it correctly, and you may or may not be able to easily loose it. 

Try the 3 count AFTER you are settled it, and let me know how it works. 

BTW - 240 on the 300 isn't too shabby. The bad part is, going beyond may take a lot more work, than it took getting there.

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I had just noticed in CFGuy's first post he listed about the target size. I guess I did not realize there were different sizes? What would be the size for the standard? 
Also question for shot count Viper was talking about. So just before you set into full expansion you start your 3 count? I did notice the length of times I held my shot today seemed to effect my shot at times.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

There are few harder things then to remember to RELAX while holding on aim. Easiest way to do it is to think of something else, really.
Set your gap and then transfer all of the focus onto relaxing and expanding.

-Grant


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Fantastic, thanks for the help guys.

Grant: I most definitely will - much easier to pour arrows out of that all day. Just need to get some arrows I won't overdraw. Super Clubs?
Regarding relaxing/releasing, near the end I threw in where I would inhale on the draw, expand slowly, let breath out for 3 seconds (triggering my last bit of draw/expansion) and when I got to the end of my 3 seconds/breath I would release (great suggestion Viper) - similar to what I did in rifle shooting, and it seemed to work well - if I averaged what I shot in the last 5 ends I would be closer to 220 than 190. I'll have to try it for the whole shoot next time, really helped to take focus off of "get it on target get it on target"; hard subconscious habit to break.

Viper: Definitely an issue, and I think your count is a great idea. No option of adding a clicker to my bow so alternatives are probably the best bet. I'll try a full end with that and let you know what happens. The mental game is fascinating.

Arron: The standard if I remember correctly is a 40cm target, shot at 20 yards. All I did was make my own target, but since I only have 15 yards to work with at my house, I just reduced the target size down to about 75%, which would roughly give me an equivalent to shooting at 20 yards.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron -

The standard "blue" NFAA 300 round is 60 arrows for record shot in 12 ends of 5 arrows each.
The dimensions are as follows:

the x ring is 4cm diameter, or about 1 9/16", it scores 5 pt's and the # of hits are used as tie breakers (white). 

the 5 ring, or spot, is 8cm diameter, or about 3 1/8" (white)

the 4 ring is 16cm, or about 6 5/16" (blue)

the 3 ring is 24cm, or about 9 7/16" (blue)

the 2 ring is 32cm, or about 12 9/16" (blue)

the 1 ring is 40cm, or about 15 3/4" (blue)

These are the older NFAA barebow classifications (which included "bowhunter" as there wasn't a distinction back then).
There was no real question about where you stood. 

Archer 0 –189 (D – class)
Bowman 190 – 209 (C – class)
Expert B 210 – 249 (B – class) 
Expert A 250 – 279 (A – class)
Expert AA 280 – 300 (AA – class)

Regarding the count. Sometimes it varies depending on the shooter's needs, but as I said, in most cases we start once everything is set, alignment, "back tension", sight picture, etc. If you get right, it's the time you need to relax or rather settle into the shot. Again, the count can be as fast or slow as the situation requires. 

The relaxation part can get a little trickier, because I use the idea of relaxing as part of the release mechanism, but that part can get into semantics. For example, when talking someone through a shot sequence, I don't use the word "release", since that implies an active process and the loosing of the string is passive (or should be), so I use the word "relax". 

The concepts are pretty simple. Making them work when your brain is short circuiting - not so much. 

CF - 

Please give it more than one end. Whether it's easy or difficult for you, it really has to become part of every shot you take to get the full benefit.

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Super Club 20/30 would likely work well for you, 10/20 for her.

If you can finish that target strong then you are doing well.

-Grant


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Urban -
> 
> *I guess you figured out that if you're releasing as soon as the "sight" get near or on the target, the odds are good that you may well be shooting while in motion, and not really locking on and holding on the target.* (OK, that may work great for shotguns and certain types of wing shooting, but for static targets - paper or 3D, usually not so good.)
> 
> ...


This is the one that I have a hard time getting past in my shooting. It's difficult for me to control and the one issue I work on the most. I find holding on the target and accepting the wobble is _much_ easier with any kind of mechanical trigger, be it on a rifle or thumb trigger with a compound. For me there is something different when I have to actually release the trigger and it starts to feel more like the shotgun shooting Viper mentioned...and I have done a _lot_ of clay bird shooting over the years. The good trigger control I developed on the trap and skeet range seems hard wired in my head, even though my trap and skeet days are many years in the past. It works against me with the recurve though because of sight picture trigger idea. It's a very tough pattern to break, especially when it is a pattern that worked so well in one discipline and is so disastrous in another. 

For me, counting helps, as does the drill where you hold for several seconds then let down. As much as I hate doing it, standing a few feet in front of a bale I can't miss and going through my shot with my eyes closed helps too. 

I don't think a clicker would work for me...hard to pull a broadhead past it...lol. Just kidding, I shoot field points 99.9% of the time. A clicker might be a good thing but I want to keep my bow the same as it would be when I go hunting. 





grantmac said:


> *There are few harder things then to remember to RELAX while holding on aim*. Easiest way to do it is to think of something else, really.
> Set your gap and then transfer all of the focus onto relaxing and expanding.
> 
> -Grant


True, true, true...pretty much sums up my weaknesses. For me it isn't just mental relaxation though, when done properly the draw and hold seem almost effortless and the release happens by itself. I know right away if something is wrong with my shooting, I feel tense and fatigue quickly.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Easy -

Ya know there are limb mounted clickers for use with broad heads and there was even a clicker designed to be tripped by the BH.

I'm not recommending a clicker, if the other stuff is working. Except for full Oly rigs, I still take the clicker as a last resort. 

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Do they not use those classifications anymore? What do they use now? Interesting about release, I'll try and think of it more as "relaxing". You do "relax" the string out of your fingers during the elbow pull right, i.e. you never fully stop expanding?
And I'll definitely keep at it - I'm more a proponent of "do it til it works" with tried and true methods. 3 under was such a case, terrible shooting for a while but much better shooting with it now.
Also, why do you consider clicker a last resort? Wouldn't it be beneficial to learn to use the same DL every time, or does it teach you to release on "click" and then when you don't have one you're somewhat "lost"?
Last thing: Am I on the right track with breathing? In during draw, then slowly out before releasing at the bottom of the breath? I found it more "routine" having a breathing cycle, again more like shooting, and it seemed to help. I don't chest breathe however (diaphragm).

Grant: Thanks, I was glad to figure out I didn't fatigue in a significant way at the end.

Easy: Luckily my time spent rifle shooting outweighs my time shooting trap/skeet, but I have noticed myself trying to correct sight picture by "swing shooting". Doesn't work so hot most of the time.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Easy -
> 
> *Ya know there are limb mounted clickers for use with broad heads and there was even a clicker designed to be tripped by the BH.*
> 
> ...


I did not know that, once again you come through with some good info...:thumbs_up


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

CFGuy said:


> Easy: Luckily my time spent rifle shooting outweighs my time shooting trap/skeet, but I have noticed myself trying to correct sight picture by "swing shooting". Doesn't work so hot most of the time.


I hate it when I catch myself adding a little "english" with my bow hand...:doh: 

I don't claim to be an instinctive shooter, but shooting at longer than normal range for me means I have to pay a little more attention to the arrow than I do at shorter range, especially since it starts getting closer to my direct line of vision. It seems like if my subconscious disagrees with what my conscious mind thinks is the right elevation my bow hand will add a little last minute adjustment. Like you said it's not a good thing to do.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Some places use those classifications or similar, some of the bigger shoots use a "flight" system which is a multi-match total and you're classified on the first day(s) results. Others just shoot for best in a given style. (Personally, I'd prefer fewer styles and classes bases on levels of ability - but I digress.)

When I get it right, which doesn't always happen, I stop at anchor (it isn't a real stop, since you can't stop pulling), then "set", then expand through. That expansion should be on the order of a few mms. Understand that there's no right or wrong here, while I feel the "stop" gives better control of the shot, a steady pull through does work well for a lot of people. 

With instinctive shooting, I do the above and the only part of the release I have control of, is thinking about beginning to relax the fingers (actually just two muscles in the forearm). Once that starts, the bow does the rest of the work. With a clicker, after my "set", I start to expand and the relaxing of the fingers is triggered by the click. I do work on never "opening" the fingers, as I said, that's the bow (string's) job. The release really has to be totally passive. 

The clicker, to be used properly, requires a fair amount of commitment. Sure, it's a draw check, and that part can be learned fairly quickly. (BTW - Calling it a draw check, was the only reason it was allowed on Olympic bows in 1972, since release triggers weren't allowed. Earl Hoyt pushed it as simple "draw check" - a little history trivia.) It's real purpose is to establish what's called an anticipatory response, so the release (the relaxation of those forearm muscles) happens on a subconscious level. That's why it can cure a multitude sins - it takes conscious thought out of the actual release. That takes most people the better part of a year to accomplish. While it does work, for traditional shooters, it may take that long to be able to transition back to not using it, if at all. 

Re: the breathing. For more serious shooters, and especially those using a clicker - no. Physiologically, the acts of raising the bow, drawing and expanding all cause an inhalation due to thoracic expansion. (For Olympic shooters, the inhalation actually assists in the clicker break.) Once the tension(s) build and the release occurs, then the exhalation is "allowed", but not forced in any way. What you are describing is closer to what's done with a rifle, but the exhalation is complete with the aim and trigger squeeze (which is an active process, rather than the passive process of the release). 

Think we talked about this once before. Diaphragmatic breathing has it's place and benefits, but it's really only part of the picture. Since you understand how pressure gradients work, you know that anything that expands the thorax - the diaphragm, intercostal muscles, even external muscles of the chest and back contribute to the inhalation. In that regard, pure diaphragmatic breathing while somewhat efficient, is only part of the picture here. In fact *pure *diaphragmatic breathing (without the use of the auxiliary muscles would be considered pathologic by most western Physicians. But I digress -again. Since thoracic breathing is normal is most cases and almost always forced by the act of shooting a bow, it seems silly not you use to to our advantage. Is it a make or break thing? Probably not - but I'll use any advantage I can get!!!

Viper1 out.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

There may be no "Magic Bullets" in archery, but I just found a quite nice "Magic BB" discussed above that I just exploited to an immediate advantage.



> I do the above and the only part of the release I have control of, is thinking about beginning to relax the fingers (actually just two muscles in the forearm).


I'd been reading this thread, taking the usual mental notes for future reference. Was out shooting when I remembered the above comment. Hmm. Ain't gonna run inside to hit an anatomy chart to see what the biology of this is all about ... I'm nocked up and ready to take my next shot.


> (actually just two muscles in the forearm)


(This casual aside had spoken volumes ... the hallmark of great teaching, as well as of the Marx Brothers' great humor.)

So I decided to simply place my awareness upon loosing the arrow with my forearm, rather than my hand ... with the inelegant mental command of "Hey, forearm, relax ... right ... now!"

Well, I'll be durned! 

This loose is familiar to me, as I have "accidentally" performed it numerous times before. However, I have never systematized this into a conscious form element. The loose is instant, effortless, slick, and the draw hand's recoil (flip, flap, flop, or flourish) consistently dropped into the same notch behind the anchor. I could also tell when I did not loose with the forearm - there would be a difference in feel, recoil and flight as opposed to the forearm shots. This told me that a different element of form was indeed being employed.

Thanks to all participating in this progressive, positive, and educational 300 thread. I'll not be shooting a 300, but certainly will be studying every post in search of the next "Magic BB" that presents itself to my advantage. 

And this thread ain't even up to Page 2 yet!


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Thin Man said:


> ...I'd been reading this thread, taking the usual mental notes for future reference...
> 
> Thanks to all participating in this progressive, positive, and educational 300 thread. I'll not be shooting a 300, but certainly will be studying every post in search of the next "Magic BB" that presents itself to my advantage...


Same here, although I am pretty interested in the challenge (from, and to, myself) of shooting a 300 round... eventually. 

Like somebody mentioned in one of the related threads, I'm currently working on 100 yard/smallbore targets: that's what I've got on hand. And that in itself is humbling enough... but fun and fascinating.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Urban -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, I started off the day with an unmarked 3D 30 target round with max distance 25-30 yds. I was initially disappointed as I missed 2 targets due to poor distance estimation. However, I began to apply this principle and some others, basically trying to "relax" into the shot. I ended up with a 247 with IBO scoring I had shot 5 elevens, and only 2 fives (If I hadn't had those 2 misses I would have had a really nice score). So, using this technique and "relaxing", and not panicking , I was able to save the day, and actually shot slightly above my average.

This afternoon I was setting up a short ILF recurve hunting rig and it tuned in fairly quickly so I decided to shoot a 300 round with it. I know its not ideal for target shooting at 55" end to end, fully strung, but it works great in a blind for Turkey hunting (on a side note I noticed an almost compound bow like hitting the wall feel to the end of the draw, almost where the bow stacked at the end of my draw and kind of locked me in at full anchor) . Anyway, I applied these techniques again and shot a 242 (230 yesterday). The difference today was less fliers, I had 2 x's, and many of the shots "felt" better. I even let down a couple times when it didn't feel right. I was pounding alot of shots just to the left of the 5 ring so I think the tune is slightly off, so maybe some tweaking and my next score will be better.

Thanks for your help. The mental game is key. Staying focused, doing the same thing on every shot, and "relaxing" into the release. 

Oh yea, on the breathing thing. I take a deep breath all through the draw, anchor, and expansion. When do you advocate exhaling and why?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Take a look a this thread - there is a mountain of information in it. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1108562&highlight=nfaa+300+scores


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

This is very interesting because I think I may have this problem. I will often release once the site picture looks correct. I aim with the arrow tip, sort of point of aim when I am shooting paper, sometimes I'll use a heavy arrow and be point on at 20 yds. Anyway, I will often release when the site picture looks correct. Funny thing is many times it results in a good arrow, but I get too many fliers, sometimes when everything seemed spot on. I shot a 230 today at 20 yds, and I've been in kind of a rut lately stuck at this level of shooting. I also cant seem to get my 3D scores up, as I've been averaging a 240 out of 300 at unmarked 3D. I did start to implement a longer hold at anchor, and count to 8 (just picked that randomly) with the 8 triggering my release. But I think I'm holding too long and that just causes other problems. I'm shooting a 39# longbow with carbon arrows, I can hold this weight all day, so thats not the issue. I'm just wondering what you suggest regarding triggering a release (besides a clicker), and improving scores.

There is a system called the "BEST Method" that the USA archery team uses. It is a in a 13 page document - within that 13 pages they talk about aiming for 4 sentences...........


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

In reference to the above mentioned "forearm two-muscle loose". 

I was pondering my draw hand's position after each successful "forearm relaxed loose" whilst walking to retrieve arrows. I held my arm up into a draw position, and then alternately relaxed either the fingers or the forearm. 

I observed:







At the "ready" position.







Relaxing the fingers only.







Relaxing the forearm.

That ridiculously limp hand was usually what was hanging there in the air after I focused upon relaxing the forearm muscles at the loose. 

I actually found it difficult to relax the fingers during the photo shoot ... they don't spring quickly open upon relaxation as I thought they would. They feel resistant, sluggish, in slow motion, and don't uncurl much at all. 

The limp flop when relaxing the forearm is instantaneous in comparison ... a near-digital switch of position. The fingers, without any help from me, open out naturally and long.

FYI 

(Yes, I intend to clean my nails sometime this week.)


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Thin Man said:


> In reference to the above mentioned "forearm two-muscle loose".
> 
> The limp flop when relaxing the forearm is instantaneous in comparison ... a near-digital switch of position. The fingers, without any help from me, open out naturally and long.
> 
> ...


Did you ever watch any videos of Rick Welch with his release? His hand just kind of flops around, but I now realize that may be a result of relaxing the forearm so perfectly that his release just opens up smooth as butter, and his hand/forearm are so relaxed that he gets that flopping/dangling like motion after releasing.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Urban -

The exhalation: 



Viper1 said:


> Once the tension(s) build and the release occurs, then the exhalation is "allowed", but not forced in any way.


A forced exhalation can be used to focus, as martial artists do, but in this case the exhalation is relaxed, and occurs after the string is gone. The danger, if any, is exhaling too soon (before the release) and then the exhalation may trigger a relaxation of the back muscles, aka a collapse. That's why exhaling earlier, like at anchor has assigned risks. Not saying it can't be done, but it kinda like over drawing and settling into your anchor by moving forward. That too can work, but it's risky. 

Thin -

That's it exactly. We generally teach people to keep a fair distance and no pressure between the fingers and the arrow nock at the beginning of the draw to prevent pinching and torquing the string or the arrow. Then you have someone like Rick McKinney, who has his hand (forearm muscles) so relaxed, that he actually prefers to pinch the arrow between his index and middle fingers. Since he's mastered relaxing the appropriate muscles, it works really well for him. 

Center -

Without a clicker, I honestly think "triggering" the release isn't the best way of describing it. The clicker is concrete, it's there and it has no variation. I don't know too many people who can do that "on their own". I use my shot sequence. The active part at anchor includes the 3 count to settle in, and then when I'm "ready" form and aim wise, I increase the expansion and think about relaxing the hook. What throws a lot of people about this, is that while it may take some time to do in the beginning, once mastered, it can happen in a fraction of a second. 

Dave - 

As an aside, I used 100 yd small bore to train for hi-power offhand. Using the SR-1 target. Those little lead pills and slow speed really amplify form errors. Going back to hi-power, almost seemed to easy. 

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

"I use my shot sequence. The active part at anchor includes the 3 count to settle in, and then when I'm "ready" form and aim wise, I increase the expansion and think about relaxing the hook. What throws a lot of people about this, is that while it may take some time to do in the beginning, once mastered, it can happen in a fraction of a second." 

My next 300 I will be working on Vipers comments listed above. As for the forearm muscle relaxing, just sitting here on the couch trying it. When you just concentrate just on relaxing that you are right Thin Man it just goes limp. Lots to chew on in this thread already. Just have to tell myself little bits at a time will help me progress faster then a great big bit.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Lots of good stuff here...thanx!!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron -

Need to make sure you guys are getting something. When I say that two muscles are relaxing for the release to happen, what it implies is that pretty much all the other forearm and the few hand muscles are already relaxed. The two muscles that curl the fingers are the only ones "tensed" while holding the string. Not as easy as it sounds, and is why somebody like Rick Mckinney can pinch the crap of the arrow nock and get a perfect release. 

Guys -

Let me tell you something. This is the kind of stuff that will make you a better shooter, and therefore a better hunter, if that's your bag. All the stuff we keep hearing about (and debating), like this bow or that bow, or this string material or serving or how many nocking points you use is so far down on my priority list, it's not even in the ballpark. 

Viper1 out.


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## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm going to toss this out there. I have started to use a coded system for my own use at home. We all kow the "300" is set up to run at 20 yds. That said there are many that use a different distance for whatever reason. To help me with my records I started doing this:

No notes = a std 20 yd round

315 in the margin = std round, at 15 yds (no changes to the shooting or scoring, but distance)

325 in the margin= std round, at 25 yds ( " )

330 in the margin = std round, at 30 yds ( " )

I think you see the picture here. It's a method of knowing what range you shot without a bunch of extra notes. As the summer creeps along I start stretching it out for deer season on some rounds. When I look at last years records, or the year before, I can easily see where I am in my progression towards opening day and still know exactly what I shot for that record.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

My shooting is best when I don't think about the release at all. I try to maintain a relaxed string arm throughout..except for holding onto the string of course.

My final shot sequence has been reduced to a slow steady increase of tension (which I think of as spreading) and the release just happens. If the exact moment of release is a surprise, the arow almost always goes where it's supposed to. If I do anything intentional to cause the release my shooting goes way down hill. 

My primary focus is on the increase in tension though I don't think there's any movement to speak of. After my "surprise" release, my string hand lands behind my ear/back of my neck and is completely limp.


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> ... This is the kind of stuff that will make you a better shooter, and therefore a better hunter, if that's your bag...


That's precisely how I see all this. :thumbs_up


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Easy: Exactly what happens to me! The brain is both a fascinating and annoying thing when it comes to plasticity.

Viper:
Re: drawing - would (sort of) "stopping" at anchor potentially cause beginners to lose tension, or can it be thought of as more of a "slowing down", i.e. more aggressive draw progressing to a very slow expansion as opposed to "stopping"?


> With instinctive shooting, I do the above and the only part of the release I have control of, is thinking about beginning to relax the fingers (actually just two muscles in the forearm). Once that starts, the bow does the rest of the work.


What do you mean by "instinctive" - barebow/no clicker or "subconscious aiming"? The two muscles in the forearm idea is hard to immediately apply but that makes a huge difference, thanks *Thin Man* for that elaboration!


> With a clicker, after my "set", I start to expand and the relaxing of the fingers is triggered by the click. I do work on never "opening" the fingers, as I said, that's the bow (string's) job. The release really has to be totally passive.


That makes sense, as well as why a clicker is "last resort" as you mention later. Would you say the release itself is passive, but the motion itself is active (in that the shoulder is not static, it's continually drawing back)?

Re: Breathing. That makes sense with expansion - [as an aside I should clarify that breathing in the chest does occur, but ideally not at rest, according to the Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization model out of Prague (kind of the "holy grail" of performance rehab/evaluation in a sense). Asian models call this by different names, i.e. "Zen" breathing, but same idea. Chest breathing comes into play while in heightened activity, but causes sympathetic NS activation as opposed to parasympathetic. Proper neuromuscular mechanics are built off proper breathing patterns - something the US medical model has no clue of as far as I can tell. It's not quite "one vs the other", but I would think that diaphragmatic breathing, at least initiated there, would be an aid since it naturally lowers heart rate and the need for oxygen. Anyway!] - but the reason I asked is both because of my reasons above and this (similar to what DNS teaches): http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/BreathingCycle/BreathingCycle.html. I did misread though - they mention to let breath out to 70-50%, not entirely (and brace the core). Thoughts on this? Or would you say it's still risky?



> Let me tell you something. This is the kind of stuff that will make you a better shooter, and therefore a better hunter, if that's your bag. All the stuff we keep hearing about (and debating), like this bow or that bow, or this string material or serving or how many nocking points you use is so far down on my priority list, it's not even in the ballpark.


For myself the desire for these things comes out of the notion that having properly tuned equipment helps (likely left over from shooting with crappy rifle scopes), but largely misplaced at times since no matter how poor the tune, if your form is solid the arrows will be consistent (within reason). Great reminder.

This has been a gold mine for solid shooting info (in other threads as well), thanks for taking the time to do this Viper and others! Sticky anyone? I haven't seen discussion like this in here for a while.


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## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

Marked for future


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

This should really be a sticky.

Two thoughts: New guys, try a finger or wrist sling. Makes a world of a difference for follow through.

I observed today - was going through my shot sequence and was thinking a little too hard = shot poorly. Realized I was over-analyzing, simplified it slightly (i.e. didn't think too hard about letting out 50%, just breathed in deep) and realized I was dropping my bow arm.

The 3 second count makes a big difference - no more "am I on target am I on target", felt sort of like "auto-lock" that pilots have. Once I touched on that point, aiming goes into the back (unless there's a glaring error).
Found it very helpful to almost try and see where the arrow hit through the shelf (not directly but near anyway), as I found it to help my follow through stay more consistent. I noticed I kept letting my bow finish slightly left (due to the expanded/dynamic release and back tension) and arrows resulted left, until I started doing this. Okay habit or no?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy said:


> This should really be a sticky.
> 
> Two thoughts: New guys, try a finger or wrist sling. Makes a world of a difference for follow through.
> 
> ...


1.I second the sticky.
2. I have been using a wrist sling on my ILF and a finger with my Omega.
3.I shot my 3rd 300 today at 10yds. 250. My first was 230 and second was 249. Making progress. I think I did to much analyzing today as well.
4. After the round today felt I had some shots left so I really concentrated on my count and release with out scoring. Set anchor count to 3 and say release and really just tried to relax forearm muscles. I felt it really started to click on a good percentage of my shots. Also during the 3 count it seemed to me I was zeroing in on the X better. Almost like tunnel vision to it, if that makes sense. Most of my shots were 2 in the 5 ring and 2 just out side in the 4 ring during the practice rounds which if I can get that down would get me to my 270.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I just had thought of something I am going to do. I don't know if anyone is doing this or not. I am going to pick up a log book and starting doing my 300 rounds in it. I am also going to write my thoughts on the round. The good the bad, what my goal is for the round, what I am going to work on for that round. I think it could be helpful plus something to look back on as I progress. Thoughts or other suggestions??


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Today I did not have time for another 300 at 12 yards, I was shooting and comparing two different bows, so I just keep track of my scores for each set of 5 arrows. That alone helped me shoot a little better by keeping me focused. I look forward to getting out and shooting a 300 from 20 soon.

Read the old thread started by registered user "centershot". Lots of good info. in that thread as well.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Most of my bare bow training / shooting was under the umbrella of "instinctive", in the correct usage. At closer distances, from an aiming perspective, I would just focus on the target and then complete my shot sequence. Know /see where the arrow or bow was positioned was pretty much taken care of by peripheral vision and "sub conscious" (it's in quotes because it's been misrepresented on occasion ). As distances got farther out the arrow became more a part of my conscious sight picture (ie the gap), kinda because it has to, since sooner or later it will over lay the target. That my definition of "instinctive" and I'm sticking to it. 

Regarding the stopping at anchor and beginners. Sure, there's a risk of creeping or collapsing, but with a continuous pull through, there's a risk of shooting with a floating anchor or shooting in motion. It's a pick your poison kinda thing. Since I teach the "watch the arrow" exercise fairly early on, it goes a long way to prevent the former. Again, you have to remember that the difference between stopping at anchor and a continuous pull through, isn't as back and white as the terms suggest. 

The breathing thing isn't that complicated. The autonomic NS handles respiration (and other systems) both at rest and during the fight or flight (stress) responses. That's it's job. The relaxing properties of deep (diaphragmatic and skeletal) breathing, is based as much on countering what most people do in the F or F scenarios, which is stop breathing (overriding the ANS), as anything else. You'll hear most coaches, in any field, yelling at their students at one time or another to BREATH!!!

That has little to do with what we are doing here, which is a conscious control of the breath cycle to elicit or enhance a very specific function. While it's easier to see the effect when using a clicker, the same dynamics can be used "bare bow".

I'm not thrilled with the KLS breathing cycle, especially concerning the Valsalva maneuver (see the last note on the page in your link). It's just not necessary and potentially dangerous - at any age. 

Arron -

Your log book is a GREAT idea. Most good riflemen keep a DOPE (Data On Previous Experience) book on their practice and match sessions. Referring back to it, can remind you of things you've forgotten, help you figure out (diagnose) what's going on and figure out what's next. Congrats!!!

Viper1 out.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

I tried today for the first time and did pretty bad lol. used my hunterbow hybrid 58" and about 51.5-52# at my draw length gold tip 5575 with 100gr inserts and 125 gr tips 

Had to make a target so x=4cm 5=8cm 4= 16cm 3=24cm 

distance 15yds

score: 252 9x 

Going to go pick up some actual targets soon and try again at 20 yds. Not expecting good things lol


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: I don't understand why more aren't able to see it that way - that's essentially what I do, i.e. the more accustomed I am of shooting at a certain distance (shorter), the less attention on conscious arrow placement. I like that logical definition much more than some of the pseudo-wizardry that is claimed to be used sometimes on the extreme end of things . That is a correct usage of sub-conscious/unconscious too, recognizable at least by those familiar with psychology/neuroscience.

Good to know about "continuous" vs "stopping". Can you elaborate on the "watch the arrow" exercise? Is that similar to what I was doing when I mentioned bow hand staying in line with target after shot?

Regarding breathing - I definitely agree in high stress scenarios, but the sympathetic NS isn't only active during heightened activity - briskly walking to work, being stuck in a traffic jam, jogging, focused studying, etc all require sympathetic NS activation to some degree. Believe it or not diaphragmatic breathing at rest actually activates the parasympathetic NS, and based on neurodevelopmental programming (i.e. babies/toddlers), this is the way we're supposed to breathe when not exerting ourselves. Granted, the biggest problem about exertion is when people stop breathing - not good. "Chest" breathing is acceptable during heightened activity however, whereas reflexively, people should breathe almost entirely diaphragmatically at rest. Problem is, lifestyles of sitting 8 hours at an office job in severe kyphosis and not maintaining reflexive strength = chest breathing, scapular winging, rib flaring, etc, meaning a host of other issues (the body is a chain as I'm sure you know). Chest breathing at rest can actually exacerbate and create reflexive issues, and therefore a host of musculoskeletal problems - it's usually the first thing we address when rehab-ing athletes (to great success I might add); make it conscious until it becomes unconscious. Problem too is that I have yet to come across a general population client that diaphragmatically breathes reflexively - by far the most overlooked, unaddressed part of the core.
Forgive me if I misunderstood what you said; all that said, ideally people should be sub/unconsciously be diaphragmatically breathing (most don't) - do you mean that you would intentionally inhale into the thoracic cavity for the sake of expansion? Let me know if this got confusing.

I agree about the valsalva maneuver - it seems to counter the idea of diaphragmatically breathing in the first place, meaning high-threshold strategies will likely take place (definitely not something one would want). Core bracing would work sufficiently for their intended purpose - I really have no idea why they would suggest that.

wseward: I'll have to take a look - let us know when you try for a full 300.

Arron: Great! The sling makes a big difference. Fantastic idea with the log - I logged every shot with my rifle and it was extremely helpful. So much easier to track progress, find out reasons why I shot the way I did (i.e. really windy today, rainy, at a different range/different elevation, etc). I have the "Scoring Helper" app on my phone which is tremendously helpful - lets you input how many ends, how many shots per end, what kind of target (i.e. FITA, NFAA, etc), distance, size, etc. You can input shot placement on a target or simply write score in the card, and make notes about each round shot. It stores them by date too and you can export to Excel, really useful app.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

By the way is scaling down a 40cm target to 30cm for shooting at 15 yards fair to call the "equivalent" of a 20 yard shoot?


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Arron said:


> ... I don't know if anyone is doing this or not. I am going to pick up a log book and starting doing my 300 rounds in it...


No, Arron; you're not the only one doing this: http://store.archerytalk.com/index...._id=19&zenid=d08476a0c57865fb95d7f0873bd97ed1

:wink:

As others have said, it's a pretty common reference tool used by serious shooters in virtually all shooting sports. Like Viper and CFGuy, I kept dope books back in the day; it's really quite helpful for a myriad of reasons.


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## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

I just made a spreadsheet with two rows of 6x6 boxes so I can record each end and there is a line for notes up top and at each end.


It looks something like this;

5-6-13 DAS CXTHS 175's new tab (I generally only note changes here)
4,3,5,x,4 21x - note if something special was felt/seen
4,4,5,3,5 21
5,x,4,3,3 20x 
2,4,4,3,4 17 short drew and panicked
5,5,3,4,3 20
4,4,4,5,3 20
********
2,3,4,4,4 18 thinking....
4,5,5,x,4 22x paid attention this time
4,3,3,3,4 17 getting tired/lazy
5,5,x,5,2 22x Gonna get a 25!!! -nope brainfart
4,3,3,4,3 17 tired
5,5,4,5,3 23 strong finish

238 4x decent day tough concentrating


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

The watch the arrow exercise is similar to blank bale shooting, but in stead of doing nothing but focusing on "form" you're visually focusing on the tip of the arrow while at anchor. You will see any creeping, bow movement, collapsing on release and even the follow-through. I find it better than pure blank bale shooting since your "feelings" can lie to you, but here, you get a visual to check what you're feeling. Yes, it's covered in the book, in several places !!!

Think we're going overboard on the breathing thing as it relates to archer. We can discuss tidal volumes, inspiratory and expiratory reserves and how the ANS controls respiration and heart rate as well as free-floating hormones. Her, we are only talking about using the breath cycle to assist in making the shot. Diaphragmatic or thoracic breathing can and will help to relax a shooter who is O2 starving due to tension, typically thoracic restriction. The Valsalva maneuver has been shown in the literature to cause some patients to stoke out and a lot of neurologists caution about it's use voluntarily or involuntarily.

One of my older ranges, back in the day, only had 15 yds indoors. We used reduced targets. Not great for the better shooters, but usable. 

Arron - 

Word of caution. A lot of us have OCD to one degree or another. With rifle, our DOPE included weapon/load, range conditions, calls and actual impacts. With occasional notes on significant changes or occurrences - and not a novel on every shot. My archery DOPE book, has deviations form my standard bow configuration (which are rare), range and scores. That's it. You're there to shoot, not take copious notes!!!

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Viper, I totally agree. Goal for the day, what went good, what went bad, what to think about next time.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Thanks, I'll try it out in place of blank bailing. About time for me to get that book eh?

Definitely - I don't mean to overcomplicate or stray off topic, but what type of breathing to do is of particular interest to me considering what I do for a living and what we teach - I figured I'd bring up information relatively few non-clinicians are familiar with since I have unique access to it (unfortunately only the better PT's, sports docs, etc are familiar with/practice DNS, i.e. those that work with higher level athletes and are respected in the field - if it was more common there would be far fewer people with chronic injuries).
Regarding archery specifically, that is a good point - athletes often neglect breathing regardless of sport. In any case, a deep breath in held until after the shot is released is what you'd recommend as opposed to letting out fully or partially? And the valsalva maneuver for anything but specific medical tests is a moronic way to core brace.

Do you have any recommendations for bow-arm, regarding sling, minor tips on follow through, etc, or is this a "just read the damn book" situation? Thanks again for your help!

Arron: This is pretty cool learning alongside other beginners and seeing their progress too! Good luck today, gonna try another one today myself I think.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

I don't like the word "held" in relation to breathing, while a very slow or slight inhalation may be physiologically similar to holding the breath, in regards to O2 transfer, etc, using thoracic muscles (intercostals) to lift/expand the thorax does complete the clicker break and can work the same way without a clicker. It goes a long way to allow the follow-through to happen correctly. In effect the "shock of release/string stop" is what triggers the exhalation. The more relaxed the shooter is, the more easily that can happen. 

But how much of this is required for a casual shooter can be debated. I think we're on the same page in that training for an elite athlete is by necessity different from training a weekend warrior. While some aspects can benefit both and may in fact be necessary, it's usually the case that the latter won't have the time or patience to go as far into it as someone effectively doing it for a living. 

I don't teach breathing that right off the bat for a few reasons. First, it adds to workload of things the new shooter is already trying to accomplish. Second, once I get the guy's form down, hopefully most of the breathing should have taken care of itself, at least if I've done my job correctly. We can refine the tempo or degree later on - as needed. Also seeing how much the shooter does "naturally" adds inside to his mindset. 

The bow arm really needs to be steady or "dead" during the shot. While a slight push towards the target is beneficial, the steadiness is do proper alignment and lines of tension, IOWs, you can't muscle it. Once basic alignment is achieved, I work on relaxing the bow HAND (and yes, that requires a sling at this point). A lot of times, being able to keep the bow hand relaxed will also keep the entire bow arm relaxed. Oddly enough, it can also help keep the string hand relaxed and give a cleaner release. It all ties together. 

How I work on the bow hand can vary slightly from person to person, but what I am looking for a a specific BOW reaction on release and shock. That reaction can vary a bit based on how the bow is weighted / balanced and obviously a hunting bow won't do exactly the same thing as an Olympic bow. 

Hope that made sense. A lot of this stuff has to be taken on a case by case basis, so as always, these are general statements. 

Great discussion, thanks!!!

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

The watching the arrow tip sounds interesting. I should give that a try to see what it looks like.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Arron said:


> The watching the arrow tip sounds interesting. I should give that a try to see what it looks like.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


I go all cross eyed and fall over.......interesting  :wink:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> I go all cross eyed and fall over.......interesting  :wink:


Then, you just need longer arrows


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## Live In a Park (Apr 1, 2012)

Fantastic thread! Thanks, CFGuy, for starting it and thanks to the rest for the discussion. "This is the kind of stuff that will make you a better shooter..." Got it added to Favorites!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Steve - 

Ya know they have pills for that 

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Ah I see, so more like a slow lung expansion to help thoracic cavity expansion, as opposed to breathe in and hold? I.e. breathe in->draw->keep breathing in->expand->release->let breath out naturally (obviously missed a few)? On a macro scale as opposed to specifics. I'll have to try that next time around (can't get one in today unfortunately).

Good point, definitely agree that there's a large difference. So don't focus on it much, just don't let it out before release/use it to expand? Since you're not coaching us in person, would such an explanation suffice?

Interesting about keeping the hand relaxed, I've definitely noticed if I'm in my "groove" and am using alignment as opposed to straining, it's much easier to keep both ends relaxed without thinking too much about it.

What kind of reaction are you looking for with the bow? I obviously don't want to try and artificially create it but it may be helpful to recognize if things are going well (unless you think it's a bad idea to be aware of it). With a longbow tillered for split (shooting 3 under), a slight jump forward, or a specific lean?

Live in a park: My pleasure! And it was Viper's idea, just thought I should start a new one to get away from the off topic discussion in the last thread.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF -

Yes, THAT'S IT EXACTLY!!! 
Since the "release" is passive and is nothing more than a relaxation of two forearm muscles, it follows (literally has to FOLLOW) that the natural exhalation of the breathing muscles ensues. The only "danger" with new shooters, is exhaling (relaxing the back muscles) before the string is gone and collapsing. 

The trick is to get "both ends aligned" as the norm. Easy concept, but a little trickier in practice. 

Re the bow hand. It's easier to see with an Olympic bow. With the hand relaxed (or for some beginners - open, I want to see the bow jump forward, toward the target on shock, and then freely rotate forward, while the bow hand stays relaxed or open. That's why the sling is necessary. 

With a traditional bow it's a little trickier, since that usually won't happen. In that case, I'm looking to see no "grab", torque or force-able twisting of the bow in the hand, I would like to see a slight forward "jump", but that's not always possible. With an unstabilized bow, and the use of a sling, the bow bow will jump forward, and actually rotate counterclockwise in the hand for a right handed shooter.

As for the bow ARM, I want to see it either dead still or have a possible slight, and I mean SLIGHT, leftward kick on release. 

Viper1 out.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

if i EVER...start thinking about my breathing while i'm shooting a bow?..

somebody...please...SLAP ME! :laugh:

I'm not saying it's not a concern but?....i'd rather just let my subconscious take care of those minor things (like breathing) as it seems to do a fine job of it as long as I don't start thinking about it and let it interfere with a smooth and natural shot execution...then again?...

i'm the same guy that just hadta install malware software and a pop-up blocker in my head yesterday to get my gig back on track! :laugh:

and the sad thing here?..many of you "intuitive types" know EXACTLY what i'm talking about! :laugh:


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Awesome! I'll start applying and practicing that.

What do you mean when you say "open" vs. "relaxed"? I've been using a similar grip to what Jimmy uses, knuckles about 45 degrees and fingers sort of tucked in so I'm not really "holding" the bow. Good to know I have bow arm on the right track, thanks for clarifying that. Holding it steady in follow through has been one of the biggest things for consistency for me (so far).

Just to be sure - I came across this video recently, and it seems to throw everything I've learned out the window in regards to back tension. Anything worthwhile here or is it going against what should be done (I figured the latter but want to know your take)?





Jinks: Problem is, people can have poor unconscious/subconscious habits which is why I asked. Practice the right pattern consciously until it becomes unconscious, and then incorporate it into its relevant context. Probably not something you need to worry about currently (myself neither), just interesting to me from a certain perspective (and I like to dig around about specifics as it helps me see the big picture more clearly).


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

CFGuy said:


> Just to be sure - I came across this video recently, and it seems to throw everything I've learned out the window in regards to back tension. Anything worthwhile here or is it going against what should be done (I figured the latter but want to know your take)?


It's interesting to compare this video to one from the set posted by Steve Morley the other day. Here's a link, click on the one titled "Draw and Alignment":

http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/coaching_videos.php

I don't know which one, if either, is absolutely correct.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

The one Steve posted is much more in line with 90% of things I've read about archery from people who are good at it. It would seem to me that having that "perfect dynamic posture" means your posterior shoulder is doing a lot more of the work.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Well one more 300 tonight and finished with a 259. Slowly moving up closer. Worked on 123 relax and make my shoot. Had a good first round, not do great second and a ok third. The first round did get my first 20 and my third had a robin hood.









Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

The relaxed hand means there's no tension in the hand (again, forearm muscles) and the bow s free to do as it pleases. The problem there, is that it's all too common for a lot of people to do a quick grab on release. While that's optimal, there needs to be a way of getting people use to what the bow is supposed to do on release. In that case I resort to a fully open hand, and in some cases with the fingers AND THUMB forcefully extended and a good sling in place. Since there is a conscious effort keeping the hand open, it's easier in a lot of cases to prevent the grab, or at least make it more obvious when it does happen. After the shooter gets used to what the bow is supposed to do, we can revert back to a more relaxed hand position. 

OK, there is NO optimal position for the bow hand. The 45 degree thing is from the Korean Olympic coaches and can work. In all honestly, I use a variation of that myself on my Olympic bows. Each hand position has advantages and disadvantages, and again, no right or wrong. For new shooters, a low grip without the turnout is usually best, since it provides the most stability and reproducibility. Later on, other options come into play. Mine is a low wrist with a slight turn out due to elbow rotation. 

A lot of the performance-archery-tv stuff is pretty good, and I do agree with trying to keep the shoulders as level as possible, for alignment reasons and to prevent raising or "riding" the bow shoulder. When that happens, it tends to progress as fatigue sets in, and besides making the shot more difficult, it can lead to injury. How much work the bow side of the back is or should be doing is debatable. I prefer to "pre-set" the bow shoulder low and then keep it there. Over pulling with the bow side of the back can lead to flailing the bow arm. So, as to what "should" happen depends on who is doing the teaching and to a larger degree who the student is, or rather how he is built. Personally, I don't usually think about the bow side of my back (muscles). 

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Arron - Great to hear about your progress! Robin hoods are cool at first but they can get annoying if your arrow gets split .

Viper: Interesting, I didn't know the bow hand was supposed to be that relaxed too. Do you like knuckles tucked in to help that if the problem isn't glaring or can it have bad effects?

Again didn't know that - I actually find slightly less turn out seems to work better, but it depends on whether or not knuckles are tucked for repeatability. I'll have to play around with that too.

Good to know about bow arm, I'll try to incorporate a pre set. I noticed "pulling" too much with the bow arm felt fatiguing and swung my arm left.
When it comes to string shoulder, will height be affected by high non olympic draw, or should shoulder still be relatively in line while elbow is higher?
Also, for draw side, do you want that "symmetry" or should the scap be visibly rotating?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Reflecting on my round tonight and realizing how mentally you need to be in the right frame especially as the round progresses. Even though I have progressed on each round tonight I felt frustrated and that frustration held me back I believe. So far the only way I have shot is instinctually (at lest how I view it) and tonight found it hard to zero in on the spot.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, I have been shooting my ILF complete open bow hand with my sling on. just let the bow jump forward for the shot. On my Omega I use a finger sling and find I don't completely do that quite as open. 
Another question for your 300 rounds are you shooting instinctually, sight or gap shooting? I have thought about gap shooting but when I try it seems I get a such a odd sight. Even when I am out at 20 yards and set my shoot aiming instinctually then shut my left eye my arrow tip almost on the far right lower corner of the target. Do you know how to set your shot up so your arrow point is at least vertically in line with the center of the target. I would have a easier time if I sight down my arrow and have the tip right below the X instead of below and off to the far right as well. 
Lots of great info as always. I am feeling like a sponge right now taking it all in. Thanks everyone!!!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

The most important thing to come away from this is that a few things in archery aren't negotiable, but a lot more are. The stuff you're asking falls into the latter category.

For example, the relaxed bow hand is critical with an Olympic bow, and "almost" impossible with a straight grip Hill style longbow. Most other bows fall in along the spectrum. The key is to not torque the darn thing! I never like the knuckles tucked in thing, just too painful as the bow jumps forward - for me. If it works for you or anyone else, it's fine. I do have a problem with beginners do that, however. It's just not as consistent as a low solid "grip", so I start everyone off that way.

The amount of elbow turn out depends on a few things. First and most important is for it to be in a position that gives your forearm the most clearance from the the string. While 9:00 may seem optimal, most people can't to that comfortably, so a little less is fine. 

In may case, knowing what my weakest links are, I do a conscious shoulder shrug and an elbow rotation as part of my shot sequence. Do I advise other people to do that? Only if they need it!

We're getting into details on the draw and follow-through, and same caution about generalities has to apply. During the last part of the draw and during the expansion at anchor, I feel the scapula should be almost as far medially as possible, indicating good rhomboid engagement. I said almost, since, I like to see a little more medial movement on follow-through. Again, there are exceptions. What I really look for on release is first an immediate snap back of the string hand and then how the elbow rotates back. Proper rhomboid engagement should give the J rotation that jimmy talks about. However, I have a few students who are a little "muscle bound" in that area, due to their day jobs, and that movement ain't gonna happen. One of those guys does have a very sharp snap off the release and one of the "deadest" bow arms I've ever seen. Perfect textbook form, not at first glance, but to an educated eye, a little harder to find fault. A few years back, he shot a 293 with an Oly bow during our league - using only bare shafts. IIRC his PB was a 297. He's pretty consistent. 

Viper1 out.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron - 

If the arrow is low right of the center line, it means that the arrow nock isn't directly under your aiming eye. It can be a little tricky for some people with a side of face anchor (yes, face size/shape does factor in). Some people tilt their heads to better line up the arrow under their aiming eye. Jay Kidwell talks about that in his book on Instinctive Shooting. 

For dedicated 18M/20 yd shooting you can also "detune" the bow to place the arrow where you want it. While it sound counter intuitive, it's being used too successfully to discount. 

I gave my definition of "Instinctive" in a previous post, so you can take that FWIW. While I do use gap and teach point of aim, for me, it just became too much work, so after 35+ years of "instinctive", I just put a sight on the thing. 

Viper1 out.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> I never like the knuckles tucked in thing, just too painful as the bow jumps forward - for me. If it works for you or anyone else, it's fine. I do have a problem with beginners do that, however. It's just not as consistent as a low solid "grip", so I start everyone off that way.
> 
> .


A big problem for me in recent years is the ring finger on my Bow hand is painfully locking closed (old age), one of the reasons Im not shooting a Longbow as much (specially during winter) the Recurve with 12" Stab and a finger sling keeps that bow shock away from my bad hand, I dont tuck my fingers in but I do curl them in just enough to lightly feel the edge of the grip/riser, it also lets me know if my hand is nicely relaxed as part of my set up routine.

My new Odyssey Longbow works quite well with a finger sling and with 2.4lb riser mass the hand shock is not causing me any pain in my hand.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Thanks, good to know. Just want to be sure my bases are covered so I don't have to reinvent my shooting constantly. In summary (I find these useful for reference), in case anyone missed anything, would this be basically correct:
Non-negotiable: Drawing/releasing with back as opposed to shoulder, relaxed bow and string hand, passive release, shoulders level, lines of force as opposed to "muscling" the bow, follow through, erect posture, elbow height, etc.
Negotiable: Specific hand position, angle of elbow, aiming method, anchor point, draw, etc..
I'll have to play with grip a little to see what works best - so far, not quite 45 but very relaxed/fingers curled with finger sling has worked best. I'll look for something repeatable. Same thing with elbow angle.

Good to know on elbow rotation/back tension, that's what I figured since so many people say it, just wanted to be sure. That's some seriously impressive shooting!

Thanks again for the time, long list of notes made. Great to have something to work off of.

Arron: ILF's are definitely better for that, doesn't really work with my Omega, grip is much different, so your strategy is probably a good one.

Honestly I'll have to get back to you on that. I kind of bounce back and forth - since I'm shooting at the same place, same target and same distance, I haven't thought about arrow placement in a while, though I would call myself a "gap" shooter. Viper's definition of instinctive is pretty on, and I'd say that's what I do - if my brain knows the sight picture well, I don't think about aiming much, it just kind of happens, whereas when I'm estimating distance or shooting a different distance, I'll consciously aim with my arrow point. I'll let you know if it's in a vertical line with my target.

Steve: Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by the finger curl?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

It's kinda hard to make all inclusive lists.
Anchoring is not negotiable, where or how you anchor is. 
Following through isn't, since it defines back tension. 
*Making the shot by doing the least amount of work is a must.*

Things like bow and string hand position are negotiable, while a deep hook on the string isn't negotiable,
Stance and even string side elbow position (height) are to some degree. 

Steve - 

This may be easier to see than describe, but when I rotate my elbow towards 9:00, my bow hand moves toward 45 degrees, not quite but close. That puts the pad of my ring finger on the back of the riser "rib". It's a very light touch, keeps my fingers off the grip and helps "guide" the bow during the forward roll. All I have to remember is not to pinch or scissor the grip with my thumb, which is how most people torque the bow.

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I am thinking about picking up a inexpensive aperture sight to check it out. Thoughts or comments welcome.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Figured it wouldn't work so concisely, but gotcha. I'll play with a few things, shoot another 300 and see what happens and what I notice.


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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Is there a specific or "official" height that the NFAA target should be set at?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It's between waist and shoulder high with two stacked on a bale. You must change your target from the top position to the bottom at the mid-point on the round as well.

-Grant


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Some comments and revelations tonight. Shot a 260 one better then yesterday but still better. Things I did tonight. 
1. Did not have by bow hand at such a angel, split the difference between and 45 and straight. 
2. I was shooting with my back foot about 2" behind my front moved it closer to 1" or a little less. 
3. During my last 3 ends I think I had the revelation. I had thought I had the back tension thing down but on one shot everything just felt different but right and arrow dead center X. I am not sure if this will make sense but I had actually thought I under drew and did not get set. However now I am thinking I was actually over exaggerating the expansion. I was able to replicate those two good shots in my final 3 ends. 19, 19 and another 19. Like I said I am thinking I was putting to much J in the J swing. One the last shots that felt great I anchored swung my elbow back and in the center of my back I could almost feel it click in. 
I don't know all the technical terminology so I am not sure if I a making sense or not. After my round I shot 4 more sets of 4 arrows and they were 19, 19,18 and 19.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron -

You are experimenting with a purpose which is what you're supposed to be doing. 
Right now, just keep doing what you are doing, but don't be surprised if things change as your shooting and form evolve.

Congrats!

Viper1 out.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

I wanted to chime in once again, because I had a mini-revelation today. It was a nice day, so after work I grabbed my lighter weight Omega longbow (39# at my draw) and decided to shoot a 300 round outside. I do it a little different, I've been shooting 20 sets of 3 arrows at 20 yards. Anyway I took just 3 warm up shots at 10 yds and then went right to 20 yards and started shooting the target. I was absolutely, and totally relaxed. I did not think about back tension, or worry about form in any way. I DID focus on my breathing. Previously I had been exhaling prior to releasing. Today, I took a deep breath, drew the bow to anchor, settled my bow arm into the shot, counted to 3 and released, then exhaled. The only thing I tried to achieve was a repeatable rhythym. I did not sweat the details. I just went through a relaxed routine, and focused on my breathing and rythym. Results: 254 at 20 yds. Best score I've ever done, and with a one piece longbow. 

So what was the Revelation? Basically it is ALL about the rhythym and relaxation. We practice our form during practice sessions, not during competition. When it comes time to compete or shoot for score, you can not improve your skill set beyond its current capabilities, you can only perform to your maximum potential. And you will only perform at that level if you are relaxed and confident in your skills. The breathing has definitely stabilized and relaxed my shooting. Hopefully I can stay on course. I definitely feel like I can hit the "X" on every shot, I just have to execute the shot in a relaxed, and consistent manner.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

just finished my second try

15 yds normal 20yds target face

266 11x by the end my arms felt like jelly and a threw a few 3's  but its an improvement.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Grant: Thanks, I didn't know that.

Arron: Back tension seems to be a "personal revelation" for most. You think you're doing it right and then all of a sudden you do it actually right and everything comes together.

Urban: Fantastic shooting! That's inspiring, thanks for the post. I'll focus on relaxation today.

Sawtooth: Great shooting! I love seeing all the progress and revelations on here, it's inspiring and exciting. Let us know when you do a 20!


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, right about that. I could literally feel it fall into place. everything else about the shoot seemed to click better as well. Bow felt better, release felt better, sound of the bow was better as well. Like I said it was kinda like a revelation!

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Awesome!

Shot a 196 today. Not happy about it. Felt like I couldn't get in a good rhythm/groove. Less fliers/misses, but things just didn't "feel" right - release felt sticky, bow arm didn't feel relaxed/stable. Frustrating how one day it will feel effortless and the next you're thinking "what went wrong?". Mental game is a huge part of it, need to work on that, but I feel like my mental game would be better if I could get that "groove" down. Was sure I was going to put at least 210 down. Don't have 5 fletched arrows so I shoot 15 rounds of 4.

X 4 3 2
4 3 3 2
5 4 3 M (should have let the last one down)
X 5 3 2
X 5 5 2 (noticed I psych myself out if I'm doing well)
4 4 4 2
5 4 2 1 (same thing happened here)
4 3 3 M (should have let down)
4 4 3 3
4 3 3 2
4 3 3 3 (noticing the effects of an accidental mental calculation - am I gonna hit 200? Am I?)
5 4 3 2
4 4 4 3
4 4 3 1
4 2 2 2 (mental breakdown)

In contrast to my last round, where I finished strong (more 5's and 15's), and I had a much more random spread.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: I noticed some Oly shooters do either a high draw and come down or a low draw and come up to anchor (Larry mentioned being taught to do this): are you ok with that for increasing the load on the back? As long as there's no collapse? Just want to know if it's safe to play with.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

CF, what you have to try and remember is its not a one round of 60 shots but 60 rounds of 1 shot. In other words you can't let a bad shot mess up your rhythm, every arrow is a new arrow. Last week at a 3D course I missed 2 targets completely. Instead of getting all bummed I took each target as a new independent challenge, rallied and actually ended up with a personal best (which would have been even better without the misses, but you get the point.)


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Not clicking tonight for some reason. Just not in the grove. So instead of a bunch of bad shoots hung it up tonight. Just got a good book so I think a little reading is in store instead. This weekend my dad (70) is going to shoot a 300 with me. Except he is using his compound. But hey he is 70 and still shooting and he said it sounded like fun.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Unless you're trying to protect an injured shoulder or working around some personal anomaly, then no, I'm not really "OK" with it. The idea behind some of the non-linear draws is help or better engage the correct back muscles. I there was a "better" way, you'd see most everyone doing the same thing, and you don't, you have the high draws, lows and laterals. If you've been taught correctly, a linear, straight back draw will always be the most efficient and engaging the correct muscles occurs (or only matters) after anchor and more importantly after the release has begun. 

As you've seen, there are a lot of theories on this, and it really can be a moving target, that's why I keep with the KISS principle. 

Next. 

"I should have let down" doesn't cut it. If anything feels wrong, you HAVE to break down and stat over, especially in what's effectively a practice or training session. During a real match, it's just a little different, since you're under a real clock. 

Urban is right, if you blow a shot, or have a great one (both can mess with your head), you have to understand, it's gone, it's history and you you have X number more to go. 

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Urban: Great point. I started working on that recently - 60 rounds of 1 shot. I find when I get into the right headspace, i.e. I'm not distracted by busyness going on (easier to shoot when there isn't the endless groaning of construction machinery signifying the sale of yet another multi-generational farm that's being turned into a subdivision - that's another story in and of itself), it's a lot easier to stay in that focused groove or that mental "void" where nothing but making a strong shot has my attention. Need to work on making sure that happens every time. Fantastic shooting by the way.

Arron: Sounds great, let us know how it went! Sometimes taking a break can be helpful - I'm too obsessive right now for that so I've been shooting probably 60-70ish shots out of my 53# and then another 40-50 out of my wife's 29# (more like 37# for me). Reading is likely a good bet soon, need to take a break as hard as that is.

Viper: Thanks, good point. I had to play around with it to figure it out, but I watched myself in the mirror and I found a more lateral draw with a lower (basically in line with the arrow) elbow both felt better in terms of where it was loaded, and also produced more a more consistent release. I also found setting my hook and then sort of pushing the bow with my bow hand (while keeping the wrist relaxed but straight), then drawing, as opposed to point the bow toward the target and then starting the draw, helped get a better elbow position/wrist position too (does that make sense?).
I focused on the letting down too. If my brain said "something's wrong" at all, or _any_ distraction appeared, I'd re-set for the sake of trying to get in the habit. Will probably shoot another 300 Monday or Tuesday, after practicing more.

Would you say it's a decent plan to shoot a bit with the light bow (37# at my DL I think), and then shoot with the heavy bow until I feel fatigue, after which shooting the light bow again? I don't want to lose the conditioning of shooting my 54# but I can shoot the 37# all day.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF -

If that works for you, great. I think it's extra work, but we are built differently. The elbow in line with the arrow in both planes is textbook, but again due to different builds and skeletal anatomy, I don't try to "fix" a SLIGHTLY high elbow. The elbow going below the line of the arrow, means undue tension and incorrect muscle usage - that has to be fixed - pronto. 

I definitely preset my fingers on the string before the draw, and keep them in that position, until the release. And yes, hook variations can/will affect elbow height. 

Glad you're getting the idea of breaking down., it really is a critical tool in your arsenal - providing it's not abused. 

I would use the light bow once a week or so, as a form sanity check. If everything is going *really well* with the heavier bow, then you can go every other week or once a month. *OR *only go back to it when something isn't right, or you need to learn a new task. Kinda of an individual thing.

Sounds like a plan!

Viper1 out.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Being a long time student of archery form and personal improvement in the compound world, I gotta say that there is a LOT of great info being shared here……….great thread!:thumbs_up


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Extra work? Could you run me through what you have your guys do? I just find the short brace height of the bow paired with my long draw makes it an awkward position to draw the bow with (feels like my shoulder isn't in a stable position) if I start with the bow up and start the draw from there (even with a very slight pre-draw to secure hooking).
It wouldn't be as much of an issue if I wasn't trying to draw with a straight wrist, but I find it difficult to "pull with the elbow/J pull" and lock it in my back if I draw with a cocked wrist. Consequently, trying to keep that straight wrist and letting the bow twist in the other hand makes my grip really inconsistent. Does wrist position matter or no, in your experience?

Good to know about elbow position, I'll keep that in mind. And breaking it down definitely makes it a lot less overwhelming, provided I don't become OCD about it  (not yet).

Thanks, good to know. I find the light bow easier to experiment on with playing around with positions - drawing doesn't have to be as deliberate so it's easier to try different things with. I find my .340s are obviously way overspined but fly straight enough to know if I'm hitting roughly where I'm aiming. At least if I'm shooting well they'll all be consistent - trying to get some different arrows though.

Regarding stance, do you like the open stance that KSL uses or do you prefer the more conventional stance?

Thanks again for your time!


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, I think taking a break/changing it up is a good thing to do. I do this in my work out routine bike/run/long walk/strength training. For the last couple of weeks I feel I was getting to obsessed got to go out and try to better my score. Forgetting the having fun part. Instead of shooting a 300 yesterday with my dad we just took out two roving targets into the woods and had fun just shooting and talking. I will give another 300 a try today more refreshed and clear headed and the bonus will be, it will be fun again.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Kinda hard to see what you're doing without actually seeing you.

Look at it this way, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. 
Given shoulder geometry, they "may" be some lateral movement of the drawing hand somewhere during the draw, but it's minimal at best. 
The straight wrist may be a little of a misconception. Remember we said that there are only two forearm muscles required to form and hold the deep hook? If that's the case, the wrist will just follow the lines of forces between the drawing elbow and the contact point of the string. The purpose of the exercise is to minimize muscle effort, not to force it (the wrist) into an expected position. 

Stance is based on what the individual shooter needs. I start every one off with a neutral stance. As their form develops, that may change to slightly open, slightly closed (rarely) or remain neutral. That's one of those "no right or wrong" things. Forcing a shooter into a stance that may not be right for him can damage the entire shot process. Yes, there's a way to test for optimal stance with an intermediate level shooter, and yes, it's in the book 

Viper1 out.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shot a 236 at 12 yards...OPPS! When I average 240+ at 12 yards the 300 will be done from 20 yards or meters. 

I will be taking a break for muscle health reasons. Time to go biking and hiking!!


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

wseward: I think I overdid it a bit on Saturday too  shot 60 out of my 53# and then probably another 50 or so out of the 37#. Not that it's a lot, just higher volume that I've normally been doing. Sunday was a day off .

Viper: I fear I misrepresented Jimmy's take - I watched the video again and realized the "straight" wrist was my own interpretation. Jimmy doesn't draw with a perfectly straight wrist, and you're right, that adds tension. What he said is not to cock your wrist in order to bring the string in a perfectly straight line, and to draw with the elbow, not the hand (from a cueing standpoint I agree with elbow drawing - external cues are much more effective than internal). Watching him shoot from multiple angles shows he doesn't draw with a straight wrist, but he gets his elbow behind the string at anchor and make a very small amount of lateral movement in a certain point at his draw. Does that sound better?

Thanks, time to buy it (I absolutely will - I won't pick your brain for all this advice and not buy your book  )! Just wondering since the US Olympic team is the only one I've seen with the really open KSL stance.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

If you look at enough Olympic shooters (multiple countries) you'll see that the drawing elbow isn't always in line with the arrow the way the textbooks read. 
With a "trad", side of face anchor, the whole arm is farther back, allowing for better forearm/arrow alignment. With the more forward, under the chin or more popular side of chin anchor we use with Olympic bows, sometimes the arm just isn't far enough back to let that happen. This is where the compromise comes in. The lower anchor is almost always necessary to reach the longer distances before running out of sight travel AND the lower anchor also sets the arms/shoulders in a better position for direct tension across the joints and use of the correct muscles (rhomboids, primarily).



> Just wondering since the US Olympic team is the only one I've seen with the really open KSL stance.


Yeah, how 'bout that ... 
Different builds/body types will require different stances, that falls into the negotiable category.

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

I've noticed that with a few different shooters - I figured mechanics have a hand in that. I honestly don't think I could get my elbow completely in line with the string without anchoring too far back, so I'm not really hung up on that (hard to see yourself that way too).
I definitely get the benefit of the lower anchor for Olympic shooting; relatively opposite with non-sighted trad anchoring as you mention. I noticed the draw is somewhat different, if varying (in terms of high/low/linear, like you mentioned). Just wanted to make sure I didn't misquote Jimmy, in that I don't mean I should strive for a straight wrist, but strive not to cock it backwards and cause tension (as far as I can tell in experimentation, this adds way more tension in the forearm). So some slight lateral movement in the string arm is okay to simply allow for the natural "J" draw of the string elbow? Not exaggerated like I previously mentioned, but just slight enough to keep the wrist from cocking and to keep the elbow moving around?

What's the advantage to such a stance, or is it simply a biomechanics thing? I honestly don't see how that position would be more stable (if this is in the book then don't feel the need to repeat yourself).


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

A neutral stance, like a vertical bow, is the easiest to reproduce, and affords optimal alignment in a perfect world. I may have the least stability since both feet are in the same plane.
An open stance, provides better chest/arm clearance, since we don't live in a perfect world. It may also shorten the draw slightly.
A closed stance "may" exaggerate or assist in back tension, while slightly lengthening the draw. It will reduce chest/arm clearance. 
Both open and closed stances may increase stability, since the feet are now oblique to the target.

As I said, different body types also factor in and regardless of how "correct" a stance may be, if it's not comfortable or reproducible for a given shooter, it's not going to help.

Viper1 out.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Yeah, how 'bout that ...
> Different builds/body types will require different stances, that falls into the negotiable category.
> 
> Viper1 out.


'
Yeah, one of my coaches fresh off of his level 3 training tried to get me into that open stance thing for 'core stability' reasons. I tried it for awhile, but it didn't work for me. Seemed to interfere with my 'natural' pointing orientation, which seems to be a somewhat closed stance. I can concede that perhaps if I had given it more time, perhaps after it made things worse, it could have made things better, though I do believe that if we were prioritizing form issues to work on, core stability would be on the back burner.

Plus, as you point out, while it's good to be aware of techniques to try, not everything works best for everybody


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Barney - 



BarneySlayer said:


> '
> Yeah, one of my coaches fresh off of his level 3 training tried to get me into that open stance thing for 'core stability' reasons.


Can't tell you how many times I see that.
Too many guys with certs just don't have the experience to know when something is working and when it isn't. 



BarneySlayer said:


> Seemed to interfere with my 'natural' pointing orientation


And that's the biggest factor in determining what stance to use! Fighting your natural point of aim is a loosing proposition. 



BarneySlayer said:


> if we were prioritizing form issues to work on, core stability would be on the back burner.


Maybe, maybe not. Core stability is what keeps you from swaying in the breeze, even if there is no breeze. There's just more than one way to get it, and as before, forcing and stability are usually in opposition. 



BarneySlayer said:


> Plus, as you point out, while it's good to be aware of techniques to try, not everything works best for everybody


Trying stuff is always good, trying stuff with a plan, is usually gooder...

Viper1 out.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Barney -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, he conceded after awhile that maybe it just wasn't for me. He learned something, we saw if it applied, it didn't seem to, so we moved on. He's a good guy, and all things considered, I think a pretty good coach, though he was simply new to the knowledge and early in his relatively intermediate/advanced coaching experience. 

I think that coaching is somewhat like psychological therapy. you can get a psychology degree of whatever you like, and it's a nice thing, and the experience and learning that is required to get the degree/certification is certainly helpful and a tool that can be used to great effect, but practice in application is far more necessary to get results.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

> And that's the biggest factor in determining what stance to use! Fighting your natural point of aim is a loosing proposition.


Thought of this today after you mentioned you should pull the bow with the least effort as efficiently as possible - I found when I stood more "neutral"/perpendicular to the target, and got "inside" the bow where I felt I had good joint alignment, the release was effortless and the arrow went dead straight. Great thread, been learning lots!

Regarding core stability - Barney, did he say why this is more stable? Anti-rotary stability is an important part of core stability - if it's sufficient, a neutral stance wouldn't really be "unstable" or even much less stable from what I can tell? Could be completely off here.

And I completely agree with coaching. You can have an education degree, but being a good teacher and speaking someone else's language is a whole different ball game. Definitely takes experience.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

CFGuy said:


> Regarding core stability - Barney, did he say why this is more stable? Anti-rotary stability is an important part of core stability - if it's sufficient, a neutral stance wouldn't really be "unstable" or even much less stable from what I can tell? Could be completely off here.


I believe he said he was told that by forcing you to rotate the torso, you would engage your core muscles, and doing so would stabilze the torso as a result. I didn't find that. I didn't really feel unstable to begin with, where before I was fairly relaxed. It was kind of like creating a problem in order to use a solution, in my case. His hypothesis is that because my physique is somewhat akin to a tree trunk with arms (the guy who plays the werewolf in those twilight movies for 'tweens and lonely, middle-aged moms has no need to fear me cutting into his uber-sculpted body consumer market), maybe I didn't need additional core stability. Then again, my fiancee doesn't seem to benefit from a highly open stance either for the same reasons as me, and the girl is plain thin, though you can actually see her abdominal muscles, where as mine just kind of like to imply that they used to be there, and may threaten to return 

My take on it, is that if you're prone to tip over or sway, this technique might help to stabilize you, though perhaps simply learning to stand still first with your eyes closed might be worth looking into as well. What I did find useful, particuarly shooting freestyle, was paying attention to how my feet were planted, and where I was balanced, in terms of pressure ratio between heels and the balls of the feet. If you start tipping over, you could call that a sway


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> I believe he said he was told that by forcing you to rotate the torso, you would engage your core muscles, and doing so would stabilze the torso as a result. I didn't find that. I didn't really feel unstable to begin with, where before I was fairly relaxed. It was kind of like creating a problem in order to use a solution, in my case. His hypothesis is that because my physique is somewhat akin to a tree trunk with arms (the guy who plays the werewolf in those twilight movies for 'tweens and lonely, middle-aged moms has no need to fear me cutting into his uber-sculpted body consumer market), maybe I didn't need additional core stability. Then again, my fiancee doesn't seem to benefit from a highly open stance either for the same reasons as me, and the girl is plain thin, though you can actually see her abdominal muscles, where as mine just kind of like to imply that they used to be there, and may threaten to return
> 
> My take on it, is that if you're prone to tip over or sway, this technique might help to stabilize you, though perhaps simply learning to stand still first with your eyes closed might be worth looking into as well. What I did find useful, particuarly shooting freestyle, was paying attention to how my feet were planted, and where I was balanced, in terms of pressure ratio between heels and the balls of the feet. If you start tipping over, you could call that a sway


Post of the day...:chortle:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF, Barney - 

Two things:

A while back there was a theory in competitive rifle to twist the torso to increase (core) stability in the offhand position. Kind of a way to "lock in".
It apparently worked for some people for a while, but not for others. With a rifle, holding on your natural point of aim is critical. Some folks found that while trying to relax onto the target, the coiled torse hand a tendency to "uncoil", requiring increased effort to stay on target and resulting in a miss. Been there, done that, and stopped with the trunk twist. 

However, if done correctly, there is validity in that exercise helping to engage or feel the back muscles, but IMHO, it's best used as a training tool and not a way to shoot. (CF - page 274). 

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I have finally moved out to 15 yards for my next go for 270. I also have been experimenting with different stances, shooting vertical and with a 1:00 cant and really working on my release. Still to many shots to the right, I am thinking a pluck every now and again. I also get a few to the left and am thinking that is the bow arm moving after the shot. Tonight i was messing around with a little gap experimenting at 15. I had checked out a video from Jimmy Blackmon on gap shooting and am thinking on going to my local outdoor range and give a try at finding my point on distance and go from there. Doing this 300 had been a real eye opener for me and a great learning experience as well.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron -

Glad it's working for you. 

There's a fine line between analyzing data and over-thinking it. 
We all miss from time to time. Just keep working on the good stuff (form) and some times, just let the bad shots go.
Just reading a little between the lines. 

Congrats.

Viepr1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Barney: Probably the funniest post I've read in a while! Couldn't agree more about that minor-exploiting cougar bait movie series. Good things to pay attention to indeed .

Viper: Never had that consistently work for me. Natural point of aim with the least stress was always the most effective. And thanks, I'll take a look!
Question about posture. I noticed yesterday that I have a tendency to pull and almost exaggerate posture, causing a rib flare, which makes me tilt my head. What I tried was drawing, then correcting posture (getting the ribcage down while standing up straight), and changed my neck position too so that I wasn't tilting it but turned more toward the target. Every time I successfully did this, the release was easier to get and I nailed arrows in small groups. Is this a relatively important part I need to pay more attention to?

Arron: Yesterday I shot 20 warmup arrows with my light bow, then 60 with my 53#, then finished with another 20 out of the light bow. I didn't shoot a 300 round however, just practiced. I actually found it informative - since I wasn't worried about score, or stressed about hitting the two ring instead of the four, I found myself to be much more emotionally removed and objective about my groupings. I noticed the first few with my 53# weren't great, but at around the 16 arrow mark they were hitting 3-4" relatively consistently, with a few hiccups/flyers in some of them (i.e. 4" grouping, 3" grouping, 4" grouping with one flyer about 4" away, etc). There comes a point where it seems "natural" and they just fly straight. Good eye opener to see how I was actually shooting without worrying about score.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I find its the same for me. Just shooting to work on something or for fun my groupings are better. I put up the target and its harder. I think it just goes to show you the mental aspect of shooting at a target.

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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Really hard to tell what's going on without seeing you. It sounds like you may be arching your back, if I'm reading you correctly. If not, then I'll need a more detailed explanation or pictures. 

The generic fix for a "lean" is to over exaggerate it in the opposite direction. 

For a back arch, try bending SLIGHTLY forward at the waist; leaning back, away from the target - do a conscious lean towards the target.
Most times the exaggerated lean will feel awkward at first, but when when observed, there actually is no lean at all!

We talked about "score stress" some time ago. Despite the "debate" the only solution for a serious competitor is to shoot for score every time you shoot. After a while, it will become "routine", regardless if it's in your backyard, local league or the nationals. The trick is to know for real what your average is, and then shoot it. It really does work.

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Thanks, I'll make that part of my shot sequence.

And good point - I wanted to objectively try and see how my groupings were without the mental stress, but that's a good point, I'll keep shooting them until it feels routine.


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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Just did my first NFAA 300 yesterday, at 10 yds. What an eye opener. It's amazing how my mind tried to wander during ends. The worst part is that I had a good shot sequence plan. My first 3 ends were very good, sticking to the shot sequence. Then it started. Getting to anchor and then a spur of the moment "I think I'll do this instead". I shoot a lousy end. Then it was back to the sequence plan for another couple of good ends. Then "let's try this instead". Sheesh! Well I'm hoping to do it again and overcome these wandering thoughts and stick to the plan.
Here are my first results: 
23
21
23
16 (yikes)
21
22
21
19
21
23
21 (or 22 - the arrow was touching the line of 4 but 98% in the 3 and I don't know how to score touching a line)
21
For a 252.

Per the advice I've read on this site, I'm going for 270 and will then move to 15 yds.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

It might not be the thing for some people but I think this exercise has been a tremendous help for myself. I still go out a least once a week and shoot a round.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Went for a pack hike today and the black lab yanked me all over each trail I hit. Looking forward to shooting some more once a few sore spots mellow. May just head for the 20 meter range for the next 300.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Looking forward to reading reports! How're your scores coming Arron?

Viper: I seem to be stuck in the 190's. Felt like I took a bit of a step back after the last posted score and making all the form tweaks, but it seems to be climbing back up. Recently started anchoring with my glasses just touching the string and making sure the arrow's under the eye and that made a big difference. Finding it a big mental effort to combine everything effectively - does it take some time to get it all working together properly after re-learning everything?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF -

Getting it all to come together does take some time. In the beginning, we try to get people to have 6 - 8 points on their shot sequence. As the develop, it can be a dozen, or a lot more. The more proficient they become, the smaller the number gets. In my case, the only "points" I consciously think about are the ones I have to do to correct my personal problem areas. The rest goes into Auto-pilot mode. My properly executed shot sequence has about 5 points on an 8 count from raising the bow to the release/follow-through. 

Good idea about the glasses, but ... be careful. Bow strings usually have wax on them. If the bow string contacts your glasses, then your glasses may end up with wax on them. Been there, done that...

VIper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, I am out at 15yds my last round was at 249. Been working some overtime so my shooting is down a little. I finally have a video camera to film myself. It will be nice so I can do some self analysis

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Good to know I wasn't over-analyzing. My initial shot sequence was maybe 4 points, but it's worked its way up to quite a few more (i.e. now it's hook, relax, string tension, raise, draw to anchor/hit points, rotate elbow out, keep pulling back with elbow, aim, count for three, etc). Just feels like progress has been slow is all. I wish I had known I could shoot my wife's bow in the beginning - I think I would have made more progress without having to try and conquer the heavy weight. Don't think I'd have bought a lighter bow still, but would have been good to learn skills more early on. Hopefully things will get into auto-pilot soon enough.

Good call on the glasses, didn't think of that. Luckily just the serving lightly touching so no problems yet.

Arron: Awesome, keep it up!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

You're still at the early stages of the shot sequence. Right now, you're thinking about what to do, in what order, and that's good! As you progress, the "whats" will turn to "hows", and they will become very specific to YOU. I hesitate mentioning that, because it's really something that has to evolve, rather than be forced. 

Re: glasses: Can't tell you how many times I had to wipe wax off my glasses, which kinda sucks, since the "string to the brow" thing really worked well for me, before I wore glasses. 

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Thanks, good to know, I'll try not to jump the gun with progress so to speak. Thanks for the help and encouragement!

Few last things I thought of: Should the nock basically be underneath the eye regardless of anchor? And should I shoot a 300 round every day, eventually working up to 2 rounds, for the sake of conditioning?

Wax sounds like a real pain to wipe off. Working not bad for now, I'm sure string to brow would be more effective but having more external cues seems to help. I'll make sure not to wax the serving .


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

The nock directly under the aiming eye is always a plus, unless your facial anatomy won't allow it or you're cross eye dominant (like me). 
About the anatomy thing, that means you have to choose between a more solid anchor and a better line of aim. I'd vote for the anchor first, but that may be one of the negotiable things for some folks. 

Shooting the 300 every day sorta depends. If that's your main arena or are prepping for that type of match, I would say yes, or rather every shooting session. 
For more general shooting, a better approach is to split it up, but here it gets complicated. Different regimens are required for different reasons. 

Most people are better served by shooting them a few times a week (once a week for benchmarking at a bare minimum), and interspersing straight form work, error correction, other drills and just plain shooting for fun. 

Shooting two full matches really just means about 120 - 140 arrows (depending on whether you take official practice ends or not), and after a year of shooting, that many arrows really shouldn't phase you. 

Edit - You never wax the serving, but my center serving only extends a bit past my index finger (Split), so it the string material that gets messy. 

Viper1 out.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

The joy of wearing glasses....

I've been bumping my glasses up into the string and I think it helps but my glasses aren't always sitting in the same place. I would much rather shoot without glasses but I need them to see what I'm shooting at.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Good to know - even if it's not under, as long as it's consistent?

Ah I see - I was referring more to volume of shooting. Ideally is taking a day or two off helpful for skill and conditioning development or is shooting that volume (60ish) arrows a day beneficial? Or should I use a lighter bow on the days off? That's a good idea though, I'll do some other shooting too - just want to condition myself to a target.

Good to know about it taking around a year - I've been at it about 5-ish months now with probably a month and a half of serious shooting (almost daily, higher volume). I don't forsee 120 arrows being very difficult a few months from now.

That makes sense about the glasses thing, especially considering the much lower anchor.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

MGF: Good point, didn't think about glasses moving. I suppose as long as my other anchor points (hand touching ear, thumb knuckle top of jaw, nock under eye) are set then it's just a light touch and doesn't matter that much. String on brow would be nice.

I'm curious how Kegan anchors as he's in the same position.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Good question!

Think I may have posted this not long ago in the FITA forum. 
The amount of time you spend shooting depends on your level of development, desire and family / work obligations, of course.

The following are just generic guidelines and there will always be variation. 

A brand new shooter, really needs two shooting session per week, each lasting about 1 hour. Preferably one is supervised and the the other not. That usually about all a new shooter can handle and gives the muscles (and brain) time to recoup. 

After a few mounts a third day can be added as time and and "development" allow. 

For good shooters, with a year or more under their belts, at least 3 - 4 (days) sessions per week are required to keep improving, while 1 - 2 sessions per week will provide maintenance.
The top guys, like Oly shooters, will be shooting about 6 -7 days a week, averaging about 150 - 200 arrows per session, plus ancillary mental and physical training. 

Changing draw weights can be a real plus or a total disaster, depending on the level and "flexibility" of the shooter. 
For an experienced shooter needing to build strength and endurance, a typical schedule 4 day/week schedule would be 2 sessions per week scoring and doing basic drills on specific parts of the shot. One day per week (usually the shortest session), working with a weigh lifting bow, 5 - 10# heavier than his shooting weight and the other day working with a lighter form bow, (5 - 10# lighter than usual) to enhance focus and amplify errors. Another advantage to ILF rigs, is that the shooter can have high end limbs for real shooting and inexpensive ones for the weight lifting and form work. 

You can also employ extended hold drills AND rapid fire drills to improve stamina. 

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks!

Ok I'll start taking a day or two off, might be helpful mentally. 4-5 days ok for about 5 months in? Have more free time now than I will in a few weeks so want to take advantage of it. Obviously depends on the shooter but want to be sure I'm not working backwards (from your observations).

I never really thought of that but good point. I think I'll shoot it a bit less frequently (not every session before shooting heavy).

Extended holds being 10ish seconds with a letdown, and rapid fire being high volume low hold?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF -

To be technically correct, it takes about 90 days for muscles to actually increase in mass/strength (at least that what I was taught 30 something years ago). Before that happens, people "get" stronger, not because of increased muscle mass, but due to neuro-muscular adaptation, (IOWs, you just get used to a given movement). That's why I like to wait a little longer than that to increase the shooter's workload. That doesn't mean that they always listen. So I just watch for signs of early fatigue. 

Those drills can be done as a novelty shoot or a more serious drill. These really are not for beginning or early intermediate level shooters. 

For the extended hold, the exact duration isn't critical, as long as it's past the shooter's comfort zone, a 10 count is as good as any. (I had to go close to 30 for one of my more advanced guys.) The real purpose is to still make a clean release / follow-through after the hold. The reasoning being, while most people can hold almost as long as they want (yeah, right), the trick is to do so without using ancillary or compensating muscles. The easiest way of determining that is by the follow-through. Obviously this will benefit both target guys and bowhunters, since both will be in situations where they have to "wait out" a shot.

The rapid fire drill has a catch. It can be done with either a fixed number of shots in a fixed time frame, as with the rapid or sustained fire stage of a Hi-Power rifle match, or unlimited shots in a fixed time frame. The catch is that the shots are 1. scored and 2. the drill is monitored by a coach or instructor. Anytime form is broken, the highest scoring arrow(s) are removed from the target. That way it can't become a grip it and rip it event. 

Hopefully you can see why these are not for beginners. 

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, thanks for starting this thread. You ask many of the questions I don't get the time to ask. 
Viper, thanks for taking the time and imparting some of your years of knowledge.
Its been wonderful reading a very positive and informative thread. Its made me think of new ideas and step out of my box and try new things.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## jusoldave (Apr 28, 2012)

Arron said:


> CFGuy, thanks for starting this thread. You ask many of the questions I don't get the time to ask.
> Viper, thanks for taking the time and imparting some of your years of knowledge.
> Its been wonderful reading a very positive and informative thread. Its made me think of new ideas and step out of my box and try new things...


Hear, hear!

Although in my case, it isn't so much lacking time that prevents my asking the questions, so much as my shear ignorance of the subject at hand: don't know enough to know what to ask! :embara:

Very informative and upbeat thread, though; I look forward to each new installment.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Hmm, I'll have to go back and read up on that again. I know it doesn't take terribly long to create aerobic adaptations but I would assume since the starting weight is unfamiliar and heavier comparable to when more experienced, it would be more strength oriented though I suppose that depends on what the start weight relative to fitness is. Long story short - I don't remember, I'll look it up . Makes sense though, "volume kills" where new adaptations are concerned.

I know this is hard to do online but as an example, being able to shoot 60 or so rounds before fatigue becomes noticeable (start to think about it more right around 50 shots but groupings aren't affected) and having shot for about 5 months, would you prescribe 3 days a week as practice (more with a light bow if it doesn't muck things up)? I'd like to be able to shoot roughly 120 arrows relatively comfortably with this weight bow eventually. I did notice that after shooting 4-5 days in a row my mental concentration and ability to "auto-pilot" things wasn't quite on so I took a day off.

Thanks for the info on those, can see why they'd be for the advanced shooter. The hold drill seems possibly more quickly applicable (not saying I'll use it now), likely more so for those that have good "body" awareness?

Arron and jusoldave: My pleasure! It's been a very informative thread, thank you, and glad it's been of use to others, that was the hopeful intent. Really you should thank Viper though - my basic questions came from reading things he and others already posted, and I simply blunder through further questions based on his responses. He's the one with the wisdom after all. I don't know much about this either Dave .


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

The muscle thing was the what we were taught decades ago, the theories may have changed over the years, if you have any new data, I'd love to hear it. 

The first signs of fatigue usually are groups opening up or increased effort (mental or physical) to maintain group size, the latter typically doesn't last very long until the groups open up. Yes, a trained athlete's metabolism will be able to handle stress better than a more sedentary person could. In that case, the 90 day muscle latency may not be "required", since the muscle are already there. The neuro-muscular adaptation may be the limiting factor, but may also happen faster since previous training may make it more plastic. Note that doesn't imply that a weight-lifter will be able to START with a heavier weight than a coach potato, only that he might be able advance weights faster. Yes, this is a YMMV situation.

Viper1 out.


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

STICKY THIS THREAD ! ! ! 

This is great discussion regarding form, technique. WAY more useful than "what string?" or "how stiff?" -- 

Having gone to a lighter draw, I also added a wrist strap, which addressed my torquing on release. 

Viper has me counting to 3, holding position until the arrow hits the target. 

I figured out that my hold point on my face needs to hug up under my right eye, string along the right side of my nostril rather than in the center. 

Wrestling now between "gap" aiming and intuitive focus on the target. Intuitive seems to work best for me.

Someone please explain this "J" movement in the draw?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

My 300 this morning wasn't the same without my buddy laying by my arrow bucket. He had a bad infection and had to have the eye taken out. Hope in a couple days he feels like hanging out with me.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Xero, 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1665451

Jimmy's video in the first post discusses and demonstrates the "J" you are asking about.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Makes total sense - again agree with overall strength not being as relevant to being able to pull weights. I think weight lifting can be an excellent accessory (I'd say very necessary for a serious competitor) but it doesn't compete with actual shooting (like you mentioned, requiring the complete mental process and motor pattern, makes more sense now having done it a short while).
Leading me to - you're actually much more right about adaptation than I've heard many coaches. For 30 year old information coming out of an era of jogging with thick heeled running shoes and not eating fats, that's not bad at all.
Basically (as with many things when you dig deeper), it's not exactly wrong, but not 100% right. You're right, neural adaptations do happen early on - obviously necessary so a shot sequence isn't arduous or extremely deliberate 100% of the time - both on a motor pattern and neural efficiency level. From what I understand I think myofibrillar changes both in density and size do happen during that time too, so you do gain strength and endurance while neural adaptations are happening, but possibly at a slower rate. Once that motor pattern is more efficient and the neural adaptations are made, if the load doesn't increase, I believe that's when more myofibrillary changes take place (i.e. aerobic adaptations within the muscles themselves). Early on I believe newer athletes have a slower rate of axon plasma recovery (basically transports proteins that introduce more mitochondria, amongst other things) which is why those adaptations are slower, whereas a more experienced athlete (experienced with the movement and process) will have a faster recovery, meaning higher volume doesn't induce as much stress.
That said, like you mentioned, a fitter, stronger athlete's recovery might be completely different than a couch potato. Realistically an experienced athlete may be able to handle a much higher volume than someone who isn't in shape. Having a decent amount of strength (pre-programmed neural efficiency) and a decent aerobic base (much faster recovery and ability for muscular endurance - not so much "joggers" per-se as a better rounded athlete, i.e. hockey player or wide-receiver type fitness, meaning sustained strength and efficiency over time) will go a very long way to making an athlete who has good mental fortitude and an ability to keep focused and un-stressed, since this is all based on nervous system function.

Obviously coach's experience and intuition will help with this (being able to see when signs of fatigue show up and if they begin to show up early), but the best way to test for this is likely HRV (heart-rate variability) which essentially puts an objective measurement on how ready an athlete is for training from a neural standpoint, whether it be high intensity Olympic lifting or low-intensity mental and procedural focus - a hugely useful tool for training athletes mentally and physically as efficiently as possible, since you never end up working against yourself. It's quite commonly being used by Olympic level Strength and Conditioning coaches and sports scientists regardless of sport demands, since it's all focused on the autonomic nervous system (which essentially displays whether or not positive changes can be made).
As an aside, very simple to do (basically a heartrate monitor and an iPod attachment); not sure who you're currently working with but if you're ever interested in program design or HRV please let me know, it allows us to work with athletes remotely quite effectively.

Hopefully that was useful and not too wordy!

Xero: Fantastic, and I highly agree! Thin Man beat me to the J draw, that's an excellent video.

Arron: Poor guy! Hopefully he'll be good to go soon.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Thanks for that. Hope we didn't put too many people to sleep, through...
I believe the older studies looked the actual myofibril size, via biopsy to measure growth, since the number doesn't change... but it has been a while. 

Yes, the change in size/density should begin after the first tear, in proportion the blood flow and O2 content/transfer at both ends (pulmonary and target organ) as well as *****-endocrine adjustments. The question becomes how long does it take to produce quantifiable changes. Not only do the tears result in myofibril enlargement, but increased/co-lateral circulation need to develop to support the increased demand. (I know you know this stuff, just trying to help out anybody, who is still awake - lol). The 90 day time frame was, of course a variable, and one reason, I'd rather err on the too long side, than too short to help prevent injuries, large or small. 

Really not much I can add, EXCELLENT (you're speaking my language, and a bit more up to date on this than I am) and yes, I would be interested in the HRV monitoring, but in my case, I'd probably have to get an iPod first  . 

Arron - 

Sorry about your buddy, those guys mean a lot. 

Viper1 out.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Arron said:


> My 300 this morning wasn't the same without my buddy laying by my arrow bucket. He had a bad infection and had to have the eye taken out. Hope in a couple days he feels like hanging out with me.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


Arron that's a tough photo, I feel so bad for your dog. Hope he comes through ok.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Arron: Looks like your buddy will be ok. We have a couple of black labs, one has always had one bad eye (from birth?). He does just fine.

Just ordered some 24# W&W/SF Axiom+ long limbs. Will try shooting these in a week or two. If it does not feel right I will stop for at least a month (I may try cheating and shooting my 18# at 30" PSE Snake). Hoping to shoot another 300...in a month or two?

Thanx all for a great thread!!


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

> To be technically correct, it takes about 90 days for muscles to actually increase in mass/strength (at least that what I was taught 30 something years ago). Before that happens, people "get" stronger, not because of increased muscle mass, but due to neuro-muscular adaptation, (IOWs, you just get used to a given movement). That's why I like to wait a little longer than that to increase the shooter's workload. That doesn't mean that they always listen. So I just watch for signs of early fatigue.


Current theory in exercise physiology -- explored in an April 10, 2013 PBS feature, "The Truth About Exercise" Michael Mosely, MD -- holds that some individuals gain faster from training than others. I'm fortunate to be a "fast gainer" -- I get fitness gains rather quickly, a couple weeks. "Slow gainers" can take months to realize fitness gains. 

"Getting stronger" often involves not increased muscle mass, but rather gains in muscle tone and metabolic efficiency. Also, some people gain muscle mass and some don't. I worked for a long time in the weight room, focusing on "bulking up" my chest and shoulders. I did the standard "bulking" regimen -- high weight, low repetition. Didn't gain an ounce of muscle mass, but I got a lot stronger! 

I suppose we should tie this discussion into shooting 300 Rounds -- 

Archery is very much like dance or gymnastics. It's fundamentally a harmony of form and fitness, the one complementing the other.


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

> My 300 this morning wasn't the same without my buddy laying by my arrow bucket. He had a bad infection and had to have the eye taken out. Hope in a couple days he feels like hanging out with me.


Get well buddy!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Xero - 

The question is "how" do we get stronger and to define "stronger"? 
As I said, in the early stages of training, our measurable strength increases, not primarily due to a gain in muscle mass, but more because of the neuro-muscular adaption. (The pumping up we see, even in the early stages is transient and due to increased blood flow/engorgement. Actual bulking takes longer, and yes, there are faster gainers and slower gainers.)

Simply put, we get more familiar with movements, we "learn" how to do them more efficiently. That applies to bench pressing, archery, or anything thing else. The actual muscle development (increased mass of myofibrils) takes longer and not only involves adding additional proteins to the existing fibers, but increasing co-lateral circulation to feed them and increases in pulmonary efficiency to get the O2 in, in the first place. Just as repetition leads to efficiency on a macro level, the body also responds that way on a microscopic level. (I know, Biology 101 or Gym 101?)

While this is true for both archery and weight lifting, archery I believe has a greater need for neuro-muscular efficiency, fine motor skills, if you will, than for sheer strength. Naturally the two aren't mutually exclusive and the percent of each might depend on the type/weight of the bows someone wants to use. 

How much does a recreational archer need to worry about this vs. and elite shooter can always be debated. 

On the 300 round, after a few months to a year, shooting 70 arrows in an Hour and a half, really shouldn't be a Physical test anymore. That's why a good coach will increase the intensity after that...

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Sorry for the late reply.

Same here but hopefully the info is useful . I'm not as up to speed with endurance changes as I am with strength based stuff (the majority of our athletes) so it's interesting to hear things from your end. I think myofibril size is likely as important as myofibril density in this case. You're right though, number doesn't change (which is why kids need serious physical activity). Good info though for those following.
Interesting - among coaches in the S&C world, depending who they're talking to, there's a similar sort of "what information when" idea (as I'm sure there is in all aspects of teaching). Erring on the side of safety, especially for people you don't meet in person, is likely a good bet. Another advantage of HRV is also being able to see how people respond to training based on their baseline. Football players for example - some simply can't handle a high volume and see better gains off a 3 day program. Others recover very quickly and do better with a 5 day program. Put a "3 day" guy on a 5 day program and he burns out, vice versa and gains are hard to come by.

Speaking of which, I'll get back to you once I get some more info on what and how in terms of the various measuring devices currently available (I'll talk to my boss and get back to you, he's much more well read on this). Basically, HRV measures variability between heart beats, which is a strong indicator of autonomic nervous system function in regards to stress and balance between work and recovery. Developed in the '60s by the Russians I believe (big surprise, they had this stuff nailed down a long time ago). It used to be quite expensive but it can be had relatively inexpensively thanks to the work of Joel Jamieson, a brilliant strength coach and scientist who trains a multitude of UFC fighters (very complex energy systems at work). You essentially get a baseline of an athlete, and then build a program based on ANS response based on how HRV varies from that baseline. The readings give you an indication of being sympathetic and parasympathetic and to what degree (degree is very important, i.e. slight parasympathetic after resting is what you obviously want but very parasympathetic at the inappropriate time can be a huge red flag). Thought I had more to add but I'll get some other info first. In the meantime, would you be interested in consultation on our end in the sense of interpreting and dealing with the data and giving you the analysed information (will likely be done by my boss, he's worked personally with Joel with this concept as well as some world renown clinicians), or simply interested in the applicable equipment and doing the analysis yourself? It's not iPod exclusive, I think there's a variety of options now but again I'll check and let you know.
---------------
Xero: The general accepted notion is that "bulking" (what bodybuilders often go for - keep in mind they're on a ton of gear quite often which is why the gains are so pronounced), or simply getting that bigger, bodybuilder kind of looking, is due to higher repetition, lower load exercises. This comes from *sarcoplasmic hypertrophy*, which are basically "nutrient sacks" in the muscle getting larger. Getting stronger is more a product of a) increasing myofibrillar density and b) increasing neuromuscular efficiency. As Viper mentioned, the more you do something, the more efficient the brain gets at doing it. Similarly, if you lift very heavy weights, you adapt to the heavy weight - therefore the majority of "strength" programs are generally in the lower rep range, i.e. sub-8 rep programs. Much more complicated than that - there are very successful Russian strength programs where you only lift a portion of your max lift and don't increase load for a number of months and huge strength gains are had from that. Also, I personally have gained rather significant amounts of muscle mass from lower rep programs - it all works together in a much more complex way that largely depends on the athlete, but that's the very basic "intro to strength training" gist of it.

What Viper said regarding muscular changes is on, and I'd agree with him about archery for sure - only thing I'd add as an aside is that strength is very heavily dependant on neuromuscular efficiency in a different way. The more neural pathways you can create in regard to your neuromuscular system, subsequently the higher percentage of muscle fibers you can recruit during a lift, the stronger you will be by a long shot - you do this by lifting heavy weights few times and utilizing explosive movements (i.e. think Olympic lifting), since they require the most muscle fiber firing in the shortest amount of time. Some of the most neurologically efficient athletes in the world are by far the strongest (pound for pound), such as strongman competitors, Olympic lifters and MMA fighters (all explosive). Also as Viper said, not necessarily terribly useful for the non-gym goer or less-than elite shooter but we're on a bit of a tangent anyway and I thought I'd explain a bit in regards to your post. Funny thing about Dr's that make it onto to TV and programs - they sometimes do have useful information, but more often than not it was known to the more involved/experienced/educated sports docs and clinicians years ago (i.e. in the '60s), and they still often get it wrong. Unfortunate that the information isn't readily known by the public due to lack of proper education. Unfortunately why silly myths about fat being unhealthy still perpetuate while obesity skyrockets.

The interesting thing about archery is that it's a much different sport than most. It's not pure endurance, since it's not continuous, but then it's not "strength" per se, since you should be able to dominate the bow with relatively little effort for an extended period of time (not that strength and endurance are not needed, those are obvious but different energy systems come into play once those basics are had). Definitely an efficiency/fine motor skills game - controlling weight very precisely. (Man that was too long).

In more thread-relevant news, latest 300 round to come.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Back to the 300 scores:

Shot a 198 today. Last two shots were frustrating and got to my head, could have easily broke 200 if they weren't poorly executed. Learned lots though - mental focus is _huge_ for this. Input scores but didn't let myself see the calculations (i.e. no "ok I need consistent _ ends to make _ score). Just thought about making 60 good shots, focused on what was needed, and overall was much more consistent. Here's the breakdown:

5332
5322
4321
4433
5541
X542
5321
5544
5444
4422
5322
4433
5333
3322
4321

I noticed: less flyers (no misses) and less 1's, probably a good thing in regards to consistency (obviously). Less X's but more 5's I think. I'm happy to see that consistency is developing in terms of a lack of flyers, but I noticed that probably the largest part of my end of round grouping was slightly high and left. I noticed if I don't consciously pull my elbow to expand and release the string, left arrows happened. However, if my bow arm stayed steady and I "pulled" my elbow off the string deliberately to release, arrows were 4's and 5's. I should note that the scores input into my phone app are listed highest to lowest (in terms of end breakdown), not in order. I.e. an end might have been 3254 but it shows as 5432.

Still not entirely happy with where I want to be but learning is always good. Felt fatigue start to affect me more mentally by about the 55th shot, but physical fatigue only barely started to show about the 60th arrow so I'm pretty happy with that. Tried to keep a more consistent anchor while getting the nock under the eye too, needs work (as does bow arm steadiness, relaxed bow hand...heck everything really).


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

For the heck of it today I am going to grab a 300 target and head out to my local outdoor club and hang it up on one of there bales and shoot at 20 yards. I have not made it to 270 at 15 yards as of yet but I just have this urge to try one at 20 yards. The twist is that I have been playing around with some gap shooting and I am going to give it a try on my 300 at 20 yards today. Another modification I did today was to my tab. I was reading in another thread that the leather should be 1/4 - 3/8 below my finger tips at anchor. So out came the scissors and snip snip snip. Good or bad give it a try. After cutting the tab I gave it a dry run on the bow and now I have just middle finger in the corner of my mouth instead of finger and tab material. 
Also in my gap trials I found if I cant the bow at 1:00 it seems I can get the nock under my eye. Although after cutting some material off my tab I think I will shoot a few shoots with the bow at 12 o'clock and see if I can get the nock under my eye. 
Wish me luck and remember all of our service men and women this Memorial Day!!


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Well here we go, I just got back from shooting a 300 outdoors at 20 yards. It was a slightly windy day here with the wind mostly coming from left to right and strong enough at times to move me. 
Practice round 58
1st round 73
2nd round 71
3rd round 74
For a total of 218
My newly trimmed tab seemed to work better and I was more consistent gap aiming with a 1 o'clock cant to my bow. Not the nicest looking target face but had to try one from 20 yards.


.








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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Great shooting! Good choice with the lighter bow, progress is definitely slower with a heavier bow.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I am thinking of getting some 30# limbs, but if I did that I would need some new arrows. You know what new arrows mean? Eye roll from my wife 

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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Luckily my wife shoots too so she's pretty chill  that said we don't have much extra money right now so I do have to be selective. Was that score you shot with the ILF? What's your score like with the Omega?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

That score is with my ILF. Most of my 300 rounds are with it. I love shooting my Omega but the ILF is more forgiving. The funny thing is even though my Omega is lighter draw weight my ILF pulls/holds so much easier. I suppose that is because it is a recurve. I really should take the Omega out and try some gap shooting with that as well. I am finding out I think I am a better gap shooter then instinctive. What method of aiming do you use?


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah I wouldn't doubt that it would be more forgiving. I think that's the nature of an ILF rig, just something I love about longbows though. I shoot my wife's Polaris and it feels a lot smoother but I just wouldn't like a similar bow as my "main".

I personally think "instinctive" has been somewhat b--terdized as a concept. I personally gap shoot, but honestly, at ranges I'm very familiar with (i.e. 15m), I don't bother gapping, the sight picture looks correct and my brain sort of "locks" it in (fantastic thing, even though sometimes counter productive  ). At different ranges I definitely gap and if I had to define my style I'd say "gap" (intuitive shooting doesn't seem worth pursuing for me unless my brain already has a good idea of what sight pictures look like at different ranges). Wanted initially to start with instinctive shooting but gap just made more sense.


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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Normally when I get to shoot, it's after the kids are in bed which gives me time for about 5 ends. I usually have good, concentrated ends knowing that it's going to be a short practice session. I don't care about my total for 5 ends. Just focus on my shot sequence and getting good consistent shots. When I did my first 300 round at 10 yds, I shot 252 but was concerned about my total, as I went along. I was not able to stay focused on my shot routine for each shot. Today, I decided to not think of my total at all. I did the 300 round just like my 5 end practice sessions and I focused much better on my shot sequences. I even got my first 25 end. I ended up shooting a 271! I'm moving to 15 yds now 

1 - 5 5 4 4 4
2 - 5 5 5 4 3
3 - 5 5 4 4 3
4 - 5 5 5 5 5
5 - 5 5 5 4 4
6 - 5 5 4 4 4
7 - 5 5 4 4 4
8 - 5 5 5 4 4
9 - 5 5 4 4 4
10 -5 4 4 4 4
11 -5 5 5 4 4
12 -5 5 5 5 4


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Ncheels,
Great! I am out at 15 yards myself. I think it will take me a little longer to get to 270 this go around. But that's ok, I am learning as I go.

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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Since you are already at 15 yds, how was the first 15 yd transition? I'm going to move my 5 end practice sessions to 15 yds and hopefully I'll shoot my first 15 yd round soon.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I shot a 249 on my first 300 at 15 yards. Little mistakes going from 10 to 15 yards just get magnified just a little more.


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## Goldilox (Mar 27, 2007)

Lately, I have been the grateful recipient of a lot of great advice from this forum, especially from Viper (both online and in print) as well as from lurking on Tradtalk, Leatherwall, etc.
Based on this advice, I have been paying closer attention to my grip, making sure that the bow is sitting more neutrally in my hand to avoid accidental torque. Also working thru my sequence and spending a tiny bit more time holding and letting my aim settle before release. With these tweaks my consistency has gone up considerably, as long as I don't let my head get in the way.
Shooting with my stripped down Sky Conquest (no clicker, sight or stabilizer), with very light 26lb limbs and 1914 X7s with heavy field tips (very nearly point on at 20 yds), I am seeing a lot more X's and far fewer 3's. Yesterday I had to replace 3 nocks, which is always a good sign of consistency. With everything well tuned and with a repeatable aiming strategy, this setup is feeling a lot like my Olympic setup with all the doo dads attached. In fact with the lighter bow and low draw weight, I am experiencing far less fatigue after 60, 120, 180 arrows or more in a session, which for non-atheletes like myself has to be an advantage.

This weekend I have shot several 300 rounds from 20 yds and scored 267, 269 and a freakish personal best of 279 (so close to 280!) when the planets aligned and my brain was 90% asleep, except for the motor cortex. 

Now that I know I have a great working setup, I just need to practice until those tweaks in my technique become ingrained so I don't have to think about them so much each time.

Thanks again to the forum and all those who are willing to share their expertise online so that others can benefit. This site makes a sport with fairly spread out participants seem like a close-knit community.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Goldilox - 

Ya gotta love it when a plan comes together.
Congrats!!!

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Goldilox, great post on your progress. I currently am shooting with some 40# TradTech Blackmax limbs which are pulling at 38# with my Horizon riser right now. I wouldn't say that I get overly fatigued by the end of a round but I think I am ready to pull the plug on some lighter weight limbs. I am thinking some 30# SF Axiom Plus limbs. I believe Viper had mentioned they were a good inexpensive buy. What do you all think, good weight?

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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Ten pounds under your "comfortable max" will provide you with hours of hard-working, detail-oriented, fun and games ... minus any significant fatigue.


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## Goldilox (Mar 27, 2007)

Arron, 
I have had a lot of fun shooting the light bow, which really lets me focus on all parts of my shot without struggling. I can clearly feel the difference when my back pressure is poor, especially since it has a dramatic effect on arrow flight at this low weight. It also demands a very smooth release, as the string is not pulled so forcefully from the fingers and its very easy to deflect the string. 
Also, when I shoot split finger, I can easily go out to 40 yds keeping point on the bullseye. Mind you this is with 26# modern carbon limbs. With my 25# Howatt traditional bow, which is clearly not as fast, I can only go out to about 32-34 yds with these same fairly heavy arrows and not have to aim above the bullseye. With light carbons 50 yds is easily reachable without aiming at the flag.
I shot a round with my full Olympic setup and 42# limbs and did not score much better but was significantly more tired after a round. 

30# should be an extremely adequate and fun weight to work with and for NFAA indoors should be very competitive.

(Of course all the above is basically me parroting advice I have gotten from much more experienced folks on this forum!)


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I think the plug will be pulled on the limbs. I have a line on some used SF Premiums at 30#'s and if the guy still has them I will be picking them up. 
The more I am getting into this the more fun I am having. It has been really nice seeing the progress over the last month and a half. I feel my form is getting better and my confidence is higher. Not to say I don't have a few bad days here and there but they are not as frequent. I am thinking with the lighter weight limbs I will have a closer point on at 20 yards. I have been working with some gap shooting these past 2 weeks. Now I am all excited again for the new possibilities for improvement!!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron - 

I keep saying this, and happily more and more people are picking up on it. 
Most people can start off drawing and shooting with bows in the 40# - 50# range.
A lot of people can get "decent" accuracy with that weight at close ranges.

When you want more, and need to refine the shot, it really becomes a game of finesse. 
That's where going to lighter bows or limbs becomes imperative. 
Those are the people I want to work with. 

Congrats!

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I agree. Having the right weight limbs has little to do with fatigue at wanting higher level of scores. That's just the given you can't shoot good when tired. You will start losing points and quickly long before you will feel fatigue. Fatigue comes way after the horse left the barn.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks for the responses guys. I will keep you posted on the progress. Although with the 30# limbs I will need to pick up some new arrows I believe. All this will mean a double eye roll from my wife. Oh well what"s a guy to do


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I managed to break 270 with my 45 pound bow but really started to feel like I'd need to go lighter to push the score much higher. At that point, I decided to stick to the original goal which was to maximize accuracy with my hunting bows. I just don't care to go under 40 pounds mainly because it isn't a legal hunting bow in all the states I'm likely to hunt.

What I did was to keep looking for ways to improve without going to a lighter bow. One thing is that I was just holding too long. That will make you tired too. I'd catch myself holding while doing nothing to move the shot sequence forward. When it's time to expand, there's nothing to be gained by not expanding.

Another thing was I started using a finger sling (the finger sling works with my longbows too). As hard as I'd try to shoot with a relaxed grip, I couldn't seem to stop myself from grabbing the bow just a little at the moment of release...at least not consistently.

I haven't shot a 300 round lately, partly because I'm shooting at a bag of rags and I don't have anything set up to mount the paper target face, but I think improving the above mentioned areas raised my game a bit. 

I suppose my approach might be a little different if my goal was to compete indoors. As much as it hurts to think about it I guess I'd be forced to think about using a compound if I ever decide that 40 pounds is too much. There just isn't anything about a compound that I like but it would be better than not hunting at all.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Yep got the double eye roll on the new limbs and quite possibly the need for arrows to go with the 30 pounders. I do have some .600 GT Trads at full length 30" that might work with enough weight up front. Although it seems the Horizon with the blackmax limbs seems to like a step down in spine from what the charts say. I would like to try aluminum at some point. Any direction on them? I have a 28" draw, they will be 30# limbs on a 68" bow and have been using full length arrows in the past. 
Anyway should have it all set by next weekend to give it a go

MGF- I also use a finger sling on my longbow when I use it for a 300 round as well. It does seem to help. On my recurve I use a wrist sling.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I shoot 2013's from my 30# limbs @ 28" - Full length with 125gr field points spines about right and gives a nice long arrow to aim off of.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> Arron -
> 
> I keep saying this, and happily more and more people are picking up on it.
> Most people can start off drawing and shooting with bows in the 40# - 50# range.
> ...


Where does this balance fall in your opinion? Are you talking about wanting to shoot 120+ arrow rounds, or adding an extra few points on a 270, or are you talking the difference between shooting a 200 vs a 250? And do mean that specifically for beginners?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy- I would say a normal shooting session for me is right around 100 shots and as I mentioned above I am not feeling overly fatigued but it is setting in. I liked Sanfords posting were he had said, " You will start losing points and quickly long before you will feel fatigue". So I do believe going lighter will help me in the long run. I also think I read somewhere here at on point that a lighter weight can magnify ones form errors. So for the start I believe I might backslide somewhat but long term I believe my goals will be achieved. My goals right now are to get to my 270 at 15 yards then tackle the 20. From there who knows maybe some league shooting or keep going out in my distances. 

Centershot- I looked up the 2013 which were .610 and 32" full length. My GT's are .600 full length 30" w/.75g tips to tune to my Horizon set up at 38# I also have some Bemans .500 full length 31-1/2 w/100g points tune to it as well


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Those UL600 should tune if left full length. Just try to keep as much weight off the nock end as possible. Lightweight fletching and nock for sure. They shouldn't need more than 150gr up front at the absolute most.

You might find they are a little fast though which can really make for a challenging sight picture indoors.

-Grant


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

grantmac- UL600 ??? wasn't sure what you meant. sorry if I am dense


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF -

Not sure I understand your question. 

A new shooter never really knows what weight or weight range is going to work for him (or her). 
That's why we always err on the too light side, so they can develop the control / finesse. 

More experienced (competitive) shooters can benefit from a weight that will be light enough that they can control with relative ease throughout the course of fire (IMHO usually twice the expected course of fire is better in a lot of cases), but not so light to amplify minor shooting / form errors during a competition. The lighter weights are for form training, as we discussed elsewhere.

Does it make more of a difference for a shooter trying to go from a 200 to a 230 (more realistic than jumping to a 250  ) or a guy wanted a few extra points over a 270? 
Depends on what each shooter needs, but most likely - both!

Viper1 out.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

I have been working down in bow pull weight for this 300 drill. Have been tuning an Hoyt Excel 21" riser to W&W/SF Axiom+ long limbs marked at 24#. This gives me 29#s at my 30" draw. Sub 30 has been achieved...YEAA!! These 24# limbs due appear to be more sensitive to form errors. I was using 30# W&W/SF Axiom+ long limbs previously. Before that I was using Trad Tech Black Max long limbs marked at 40# to target shoot at 20meters. After developing some small yet persistent injuries...it was time to drop draw weight until absolutely comfortable in a longer shooting session.

After finishing the details on the bows setup, I will try another 300 at 12 yards with the sub 30 rig!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Arron said:


> grantmac- UL600 ??? wasn't sure what you meant. sorry if I am dense


Ultralight 600.

I doubt you could get the heavy Trad shafts to tune without massive points. Shaft weight makes a big difference in tuning.

-Grant


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper1 said:


> CF -
> 
> Not sure I understand your question.
> 
> ...


Ah gotcha.

Just wonder sometimes about hunting weight bows and the accuracy potential for them, often get the impression accuracy isn't really all that attainable with anything over 40# really. I definitely understand the need to dominate the bow, and if I was going to shoot a round requiring a high.volume of arrows (ie 100+) my Omega would likely go on the shelf. Is it more a case of "get the accuracy first" before moving up in draw? I just have trouble understanding why the magic number seems to be low 30s. Didn't Steve compete with a 50~# longbow?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

Kinda a minor hot button with me. 

The weight of your bow should have no influence on your accuracy, unless you're over bowed - and that's the shooter's mistake. 
The way I usually describe it, is if an observer can discern the weight of your bow by watching you shoot, odds are you are over-bowed. 

We talk about bow weights typically in terms of new shooters. And I still contend that a serious new shooter will not attain his/her full potential with a bow in excess of 30#, and yes, less is more. With more experienced shooters, the "rules" change. Younger amateur Olympic shooters (20 -30 years of age) in good condition are in the 40# range, usually within a few years. The elite shooters are pushing and a few passing the 50# mark. 

When I got my BB AA rating it was with a 63# bow and my personal record was 5 (five) 300s back to back. (OK, left the range after 2AM that night, and I wasn't alone.) 

The bottom line is that a shooter, any shooter, needs to use a bow he can fully control, whether the target be paper or fur. 
A few years ago, the ibo instituted a "Heavy Hunter" class for bows over 60#. Pretty much a slap in the face to shooters who actually knew what they were doing. Really should have been called the "Over-bowed Hunter" class. Not that every one shooting in that class was over bowed, but if you can really handle the weight, you should have no problems competing with guys shooting 1/2 the weight set up in a similar configuration. I did, and so did a number of others in the past. 

Little bit of irony - The bows I used back then wouldn't qualify me for the "Heavy Hunter" class, since they were all marked 59# @ 28" (the ibo requirement is 60# @ 28"), and 63# at my draw of a bit over 29". 

Do-able? Certainly, but it will take work and more importantly, proper training. 

Viper1 out.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> A few years ago, the ibo instituted a "Heavy Hunter" class for bows over 60#. Pretty much a slap in the face to shooters who actually knew what they were doing. Really should have been called the "Over-bowed Hunter" class. Not that every one shooting in that class was over bowed, but if you can really handle the weight, you should have no problems competing with guys shooting 1/2 the weight set up in a similar configuration. I did, and so did a number of others in the past.


I'd really love to see viper compete against some of these guys. Check the scores of the HH class at the Traditional Worlds, match them up against the rest. That will give you the facts, vs. uneducated opinion.

If you want to look at it that way, then there should one class, period--shoot what you bring.

Since he's had me on "ignore" for....well, who cares how long...someone might ask him what his experience is with the IBO, what tournaments he's shot in, which ones he won and in what class, etc.

It's ARCHERS that know what they are doing that run the IBO--archers that have proven themselves time and time again in public competition, not to mention some of them are renowned coaches. 

A shooter taking pot-shots at them when you have done ????? is a slap in the face to the sport. In my opinion of course--based on shooting in several IBO tournaments, and knowing a couple of the folks that have dedicated their lives to the sport and also work with the IBO to make it happen.


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## Steel Horse (Apr 11, 2010)

Chad,I really dont have a dog in this fight! With that said, Im just curious why you constantly bust on Tony? We are all here to share knowledge about the sport we love.If someone has a different opinion about what he feels is the right way to pursue the choosen endevor,than why is another person Wrong, because our opinion differs? Granted No One, has the answer to everything, but what makes these boards great, is We all can expell our thought process,Right,or Wrong! See you at Denton! and get back to making strings! You have been on vacation long enough.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR, your "Viperitis" is coming out of remission again  If you are assuming they score on equal basis, what's the point of having a separation of classes - check the scores - they ain't equal. It's not good or bad on anyone, just the way it is. You are always looking for the insult when none is ever given.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Well, if I ever say anything that isn't true, please let me have it. I have friends in the IBO, and the pot-shots by someone who will never hold a candle to their work and dedication to the sport of archery--much less their accomplishments-- is very offensive to me. If I'm wrong for that, again--let me have it. I don't begrudge anyone their opinion--if it seems I have, let me know and I'll either explain or apologize, whichever is appropriate.

I wish I was on vacation....if you only knew.......


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Heck, the way I read it Tony was supporting "your friends", the ones who "didn't need" a separate class to shoot their heavy bows. Evidently, it wasn't that way in the past, so why is it now? You could answer that for us and help along a good discussion.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Sanford, I'll be more than happy to answer any questions or address any points...right after mine are.


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## Steel Horse (Apr 11, 2010)

Chad,I have a Great deal of respect for you #1! Just dont understand why all of the negativity to a fellow Tradster?I can see,if someone blatently gives false information, to a up start,but simply having a different opinion is what makes the planet spin,IMO.I guess im a product of my upbringing, when Pop always said,"Son,,Treat people with the same respect in life, as you would pay to them Casket side" Your a Good man Chad,PLEASE let it go!You gain or loose nothing from holding a grudge, warrented or not!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> Sanford, I'll be more than happy to answer any questions or address any points...right after mine are.


I think we know the answer anyway, you don't have one. I was just giving you the opportunity to substantiate anything else you might could offer in regards to the stink you raised over the comment on the change to IBO Rules.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> ,"Son,,Treat people with the same respect in life, as you would pay to them Casket side"


Good motto, and that's what I try to do.



> but simply having a different opinion is what makes the planet spin


Again, no problem here with varying opinions. I defended my friends because they don't hang out here (any wonder why?). 



> I was just giving you the opportunity to substantiate anything else you might could offer in regards to the stink you raised over the comment on the change to IBO Rules.


As soon as I recieve "substantiation", I'll be more than happy to return the favor. Surely you wouldn't demand anything more from me than you would someone else?


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

LBR: Please don't rant about Viper in this thread, it's really tiring, unnecessary and frankly annoying. I'd like to keep this respectful and productive.

Viper: Thanks that context makes sense, I hope to be able to do the same. Can't say I disagree in any way. 300 arrows is definitely a LOT. How was the fatigue then, mental or otherwise?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

I was in my 20's, gotta be honest, if there was any fatigue, I don't remember it, we just loved shooting... but that was a long time ago. 
Right now, I can usually shoot 2-3 full 300's for record with an Oly rig, but I'm pretty burnt after that. 

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

The mental aspect in shooting a round. When I am doing a 300 I have my shot sequence I tick off in my head. Try and keep it simple. Stance, hand, anchor, aim, expansion and count 3. I try and not change anything up during my round, makes me think to much then I get into trouble. Once my round is done and I evaluate and might want to change something I write it down for the next time. I really try just to have a clear head and not think about it, kind of just go on auto pilot if that makes sense. 
My question is what do some of the rest of you do for the mental aspect? Things you do to keep a clear head? What you do to stave of frustration?
Thanks in advance.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Viper: Ah I know that feeling, not shooting that often but I still love it enough to do it as often as I can. That's understandable, 2-3 rounds is quite a few, no? What's generally the most arrows that will be shot (i.e. which competition)? I'd like to be able to shoot a 300 round back to back with my Omega comfortably, for score.

Arron: Hugely important. Same for me, just keep it simple - use shot sequence every time though don't modify things, pay attention to why misses happened but don't stress it, 1 shot 60 times, not the other way around. I also don't let myself see the total score - strong shots every time, no stress. Music helps I find, usually a quiet soundtrack or classical.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CF - 

The number of arrows really runs the gamut. 

3D can be a few dozen arrows.
NFAA Animal round is 28 (if you're very good) or 84 (if you weren't so good)
Vegas is 30 (but there are 45 and 60 arrow variants)
NFAA 300 is 60, as were the old PAA rounds and several others
NFAA Field and Hunter are 112
The 900 round and older American rounds are 90, but we also used to shoot Double Americans for 180. (OK, those were all day deals and were pretty grueling) 
FITA (full) is 144 (oddly enough, so was the much older Your round)

Official practice rounds not included, typically two ends, and are optional. 

See why a couple of back to back 300's wasn't such a stretch back in the day? 

And yes, you can do it!

Viper1 out.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Ah gotcha. Yeah definitely understand why high volume is important for competitive shooting or even consistency's sake in general. Even in 3D it can be helpful to be nowhere near fatigued when it's done.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

CFGuy said:


> Ah gotcha. Yeah definitely understand why high volume is important for competitive shooting or even consistency's sake in general. Even in 3D it can be helpful to be nowhere near fatigued when it's done.


Just think of the day 1 vs. day 2 scores at the 3D. Or even morning to afternoon. It was pretty obvious who was getting fatigued, it wasn't you or me.

-Grant


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Well I finally pulled the plug on some lighter weight practice limbs. Ordered up some Axiom 26# limbs which should range between 26# and 30# depending on my limb bolt positions. Also got in touch with my favorite archery shop here in MN, High Five Archery and have some Easton Tributes that they will fletch up for me to start the tuning process. I should have it all set by this weekend and will post my results and thoughts on the lighter limbs for form work and my 300 practice rounds.


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## Goldilox (Mar 27, 2007)

Aaron, you're gonna love em!
Today I was alternating between my 26# and 40# setups shooting trad at 50 yds, both with well tuned (by my standards) arrows, and found the scoring to be nearly identical. (Shooting at a 122cm target I had lots of 9&10s, with some low shots when my form faltered) 
Funny thing was with the light bow I had some heavyish alu arrows with 125g field points and was point on with split fingers, whereas with the 40# bow I had some state of the art X10s with AAE Wav vanes (thanks Limbwalker). I would have guessed that the flatter trajectory and wind resistance would grouped a lot tighter.
I think however the biggest difference was the aiming since the X10s were either top of the target with 3 under or bottom of the target with split fingers, neither of which suits my eye very well. 
With the light limbs, shooting was nearly effortless, but poor form, mostly weak back pressure or sloppy release or occasionally bow hand torque, was penalized more, making them a great teaching tool.
Look forward to hearing how you like them.


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## drawemback (Dec 6, 2006)

Well I got my targets in the mail yesterday and immediately set upon my first 300 round. I have been shooting trad for about two months now and still concentrating on mostly release and follow through. I ended up shooting a 214 and yes from exactly 18 meters. I feel like that I am instinctive shooter as I have a hard time seeing anything but the target. I also only feel comfortable shooting very quickly ie when I reach my anchor point I will release less than a second later. I have tried to slow down but seem to do much worse.









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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Drawemback- try starting at 10 or 15 yards and work your way up to 270. It will help build up some confidence.

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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

drawemback: Good start. Try shooting from a closer distance some time. Some hunters end up taking short distance shots.

Arron: Happy to hear you have your new limbs. Mine are a little light at a marked 24#, they net out at 28-29#. Some times I think they are a little to light. My goal was to be under 30#. Not going any lighter...that is for sure. They are helping with "rehab" though.

viper1, Arron and other "Axiom+" owners: I am not sure, however I think viper 1 wrote in another post that he was using a "...14 strand D97..." string on his set of Axiom limbs. viper1 is this correct? Has any other "Axiom+" owner been using FastFlight/"low stretch" bow string. I would like to get a few more FPS out of the 24# limbs.

Agree that the lighter limbs show more error in form. Hoping to shoot another 300 from 12 yards soon. Then it will be out to shoot from 20 meters with the 40# limbs...or the 30#ers if the slight injuries start calling to me!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wes _

I don't own the new axiom plus limbs, but a lot of my students do. I shot most of them and I have no qualms 
Recommending them.

Yes, I do recommend a 14 strand D97 string with those limbs, regardless of their weight. (16 to 40#).
It provides stability and proper nock fit. We have never had an issue with stability or performance.

Viper1 out.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Went out and shoot my limbs tonight. 20 yards was my score great, no, but I had a more enjoyable time. My form still needs work and that will be what I will concentrate on. The arrows I am using are fill in's until I get some proper ones. They are shooting a little stiff and 2 out of the 5 are bare shafts. But I thought I would give it a try at 20 tonight.
My score was 70, 67, 77 for a total of 214.


















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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Arron -

Not shabby at all!

Cool looking bow, btw...

Viper1 out.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Nice bow. Nice shooting. Enjoy.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Nice shooting (and bow)! Great place to shoot too.

Drawemback: Even if it feels uncomfortable, work at holding at anchor longer and definitely try from closer (though good score). Snap shooting is a somewhat dangerous habit to start. Feels weird at fist but it's worth it. Think about releasing after a count too, don't think about sight picture too much. Most of the solid "instinctive" guys hold at anchor too.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

300 round with new bow is a 208 from 12 yards. Oh well, next time I hope to do better. Will be trying a D97 sting once I get a better idea of what B50 will do. With a positive attitude my ends were better. Some 500 carbons will be helpful. Again...next time.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Wseward, if that's 60 arrows (holes) that has to be way higher than 208! That's a good looking target.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

wseward that dont look like 60 holes,more like 40? but even at 40 or so thats like 160 in score, you would do a little better then 208 I would think


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

CORRECTION: OPPS!!...I only shot 10 ends of five for a total of fifty. Oh well, new to this archery target shooting. I missed shooting two more ends of five. I will get it closer to correct next time!


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys. I do like the graphics on the new limbs. As for the shooting it was really nice not fighting the bow and I can really see how the lighter weight limbs can help with concentrating on ones form more. Another plus was even with these being only fill in arrows until I get properly tuned arrows ( shooting stiff) at 20 yards I would say my aim was point on to just slightly higher then the X mark. Heading up to northern Wisconsin this weekend and through a internet search found a outdoor archery range just 10 miles away.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

wseward said:


> CORRECTION: OPPS!!...I only shot 10 ends of five for a total of fifty. Oh well, new to this archery target shooting. I missed shooting two more ends of five. I will get it closer to correct next time!


Good shooting! That's still an equivalent of a 249 (83% of total score available) if your last 2 ends had been in line with your first 10.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

wseward, and if you can move that group left 3" your score will increase by another 10-20 points. The grouping is great and what you are looking for, moving the group is easy. Keep up the good work.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanx for the kind words guys. I may try again today from 12 yards if my slight injuries are not protesting to much. Next time 60 arrows!!

Arron: I like your bow, looks just like mine. Also nice range! Can you hit the broad side of the building there in the backround? ;-) Wish I had 20 yards close to home.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Wasward-I have hit the broad side of the barn before!  it's my fathers land that I go out to. 50 acres to shoot on. My dads 70 shots compound so we shoot together.

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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Cool! Sounds like fun shooting with your father. Mine is a little to old to shoot anything but a 22lr any more. Again, nice range setup.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shoot a 239 from 12 yards today. First half 109, second half 130. Started out upset and distracted. Finished happy!









Oh yea...Knowing my father, he would probably insist he can still shoot a 45.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

not bad, how do you do at 20 yards?


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Plan is to shoot 20 meters (there is a live horizontal tree trunk at 20 yards...thus 20 meters) at one of my favorite ranges some time soon. Plan to use 40# (or 30# limbs) and if the slight injuries crop up, I will stop. These last two 300 attempts at 12 yards were done with 24# limbs.

I was doing ok at 20 before...just not scoring...so I will soon see.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shot a 147 from 20 meters today. WAY over bowed with the 40# limbs. Next time: 1) 30# limbs, 2) correctly tuned arrows, 3) switch the 12 strand D97 for a 14 strand D97 string, 4) also keep practicing from 12 yards with the 24# limbs.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I am so glad I dropped from my 40# to 30# limbs for form/practice/target practice. I believe it was Sandford who posted here a while back, "you start losing points before you feel fatigue setting in". Such a true statement. 

On a side note I just found this target quiver over at Lancaster that I ordered last night. Lots of pockets for needed items and the price seemed good.
Bohning Myriad Target Quiver & Belt
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bohning-myriad-target-quiver-belt.html


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Arron said:


> I am so glad I dropped from my 40# to 30# limbs for form/practice/target practice. I believe it was Sandford who posted here a while back, "you start losing points before you feel fatigue setting in". Such a true statement.
> 
> On a side note I just found this target quiver over at Lancaster that I ordered last night. Lots of pockets for needed items and the price seemed good.
> Bohning Myriad Target Quiver & Belt
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bohning-myriad-target-quiver-belt.html


I use some very light bows and even a rubber band for form practice but I don't want to get too used to a bow that's not of legal hunting weight in the states where I'm likely to hunt. Well, legal and of a weight that seems reasonable. 35 pounds is legal in my state. I'm not saying that a 35 pound bow can't kill a deer but I think it's really pushing it.

I've thought about this a lot since I'm getting old (maybe wise) and don't want to shoot the heavy bows that I used to shoot. To me a bow is a weapon and the purpose of target shooting is to prepare for using the bow as a weapon. If the bow is too light for use as a weapon (whatever too light is), there's no point to the exercise.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

wseward said:


> Shot a 147 from 20 meters today. WAY over bowed with the 40# limbs. Next time: 1) 30# limbs, 2) correctly tuned arrows, 3) switch the 12 strand D97 for a 14 strand D97 string, 4) also keep practicing from 12 yards with the 24# limbs.
> View attachment 1689461


yeah. thats about what you can expect with that setup, going from 12 to 20 is a major difference also. eventually Im going to shoot a round from the new excel with 40# limbs, still trying to get comfy with it. thanks for being honest


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Arron: If I had been shooting on your range I would have hit the braodside of the barn four times! AND another three goose eggs to boot, that barley stayed on paper. I only hit "form" on a few shots. Next time!

MGF: I would like to be ready to hunt next summer. Obviously I do not have the skills required for archery hunting now. Being 54 years old I know my limits. I still see 40, and even 50 lbs as good hunting weight options. I need more form work and conditioning before I can pull those weights well. With tuning arrows and the 300 round I just shot, I was able to get off 95 arrows in a short period of time...without injury...yea. At my 30" pull each arrow was approx. 45#s. Next summer!!

airwolf: The rig I used is WAY better than I am. I was having serious form issues on most shots. With the 45# pull weight I just was not comfortable during my shoot. I can see getting these 40# limbs to work well...just not untilll I am further along. Heck...I am not even half way there yet. Lots of room for improvement. And when I break 150 I will be happy! For now it is 30# an 24# limbs. I may break the 40s out again for very limited shot strings (three times three arrows and just one arrow shot drills). After all it is always just one arrow.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

wseward said:


> Arron: If I had been shooting on your range I would have hit the braodside of the barn four times! AND another three goose eggs to boot, that barley stayed on paper. I only hit "form" on a few shots. Next time!
> 
> MGF: I would like to be ready to hunt next summer. Obviously I do not have the skills required for archery hunting now. Being 54 years old I know my limits. I still see 40, and even 50 lbs as good hunting weight options. I need more form work and conditioning before I can pull those weights well. With tuning arrows and the 300 round I just shot, I was able to get off 95 arrows in a short period of time...without injury...yea. At my 30" pull each arrow was approx. 45#s. Next summer!!
> 
> airwolf: The rig I used is WAY better than I am. I was having serious form issues on most shots. With the 45# pull weight I just was not comfortable during my shoot. I can see getting these 40# limbs to work well...just not untilll I am further along. Heck...I am not even half way there yet. Lots of room for improvement. And when I break 150 I will be happy! For now it is 30# an 24# limbs. I may break the 40s out again for very limited shot strings (three times three arrows and just one arrow shot drills). After all it is always just one arrow.


Yes one arrow one shot. in fact there are guys on here who insist on just shooting 1 arrow and running after it each time. more emphasis on the shot, no readjusting or twirking to get the rest on . shooting purely instinctive it really makes sense to shoot one at a time and at different targets and yards. I have no doubt you will reach 150 and surpass that . I think I broke 150 on my second try. my goal this summer is to break 200, personal best being a 185 , ive also been shooting for 3 years


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Loving all the input and experimentation here!

Definitely figure out your form stuff from the beginning, much harder to do that in the middle of a shoot.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

airwolf: The one arrow drill sounds like a great idea. I will probably progress and get some more exercise. Good luck getting that 200 goal.

CFGuy: I like to just shoot one arrow each time, not really think of to much. Once I get closer to good form with the light limbs, I hope it all becomes second nature. Then during 300s I just shoot one arrow, not thinking, just doing. Has worked for me in other individual sports and hope to use it in archery. When I am just shooting, for no score, is when I will work on form the most.

Thanx Guys!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I honestly believe that the average archer, with a bow they can dominate for the whole 60 arrows and set-up to be point-on around 20yds should be able to progress into the 260+ range within a year. If you are stuch under 240 for more than a year then something clearly isn't working and you need to address that, because 240 really isn't that hard to break.
My first 300 score was something like 170 and the next year I was averaging 275.

-Grant


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## drawemback (Dec 6, 2006)

I shot my second and third round this afternoon. I ended up using just one arrow for both rounds. I was sweating after the first round and scored a 214 (again) I have tried my best to slow my sequence down a bit and at the end of the first round I was seeing some improvements so I decided to continue. My second round I shot a 224 and felt happy with that. I go in for knee surgery next week so hopefully I won't miss too much practice. 
Also, I am still not happy with the arrows that I have used up until now. I initially was using left over carbon arrows from my compound then purchased 6 wooden arrows that have already turned to scrap at this point. 

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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

grantmac said:


> I honestly believe that the average archer, with a bow they can dominate for the whole 60 arrows and set-up to be point-on around 20yds should be able to progress into the 260+ range within a year. If you are stuch under 240 for more than a year then something clearly isn't working and you need to address that, because 240 really isn't that hard to break.
> My first 300 score was something like 170 and the next year I was averaging 275.
> 
> -Grant


Ive been playing the Lottery for 15 years now, you think I would have hit that by now. I dont know whats wrong with me.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

airwolf said:


> Ive been playing the Lottery for 15 years now, you think I would have hit that by now. I dont know whats wrong with me.


Something about your technique or equipment isn't compatible with success, likely it's the technique bit.
For me it would be a no-brainer. Look at how the good shooters shoot and then shoot that way.

-Grant


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Grant would you say hitting the 260 mark should be standard for a barebow setup (i.e. stabilizer, plunger, etc) or would you say that goes for any setup (off the shelf, longbow, etc)? Jimmy can shoot a 240-ish with woodies and a selfbow so I'm curious what the in between barebow and that would be.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

CFGUY,
I think if you are shooting any decent recurve you should be able to avg 260's given the correct setup and form within time. That would include getting your point on very close or dead on the X. Look at Dewaynes scores shooting his widow off the shelf.... Without a stab most at the National level are shooting 270-280's in Louisville (top 2-3)... I recently setup my Fox TC longbow (NFAA/IFAA legal) with woodies and have shot 248 and 245 with that setup. Still tuning and playing but think 255 or so is very possible by indoor time this fall, just need to get heavier arrows for point on. I will be shooting this setup at the NFAA Outdoor Nationals this year I think.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

Unfortunately, you're making a couple of fairly classic mistakes here. 
First you're you're talking about a rig specifically set up for 20 yds (point on at 20) and next you're quoting scores of national champions. 
Both, while are showing what's possible, rather than the norm.

Remember this?

Archer 0 –189 (D – class)
Bowman 190 – 209 (C – class)
*Expert B 210 – 249 (B – class) 
Expert A 250 – 279 (A – class)*
Expert AA 280 – 300 (AA – class)

Typically the bulk of "experienced" shooters with more common trad or hunting rigs are going to be or should be shooting high B to low/mid A scores. 

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

CFGuy said:


> Grant would you say hitting the 260 mark should be standard for a barebow setup (i.e. stabilizer, plunger, etc) or would you say that goes for any setup (off the shelf, longbow, etc)? Jimmy can shoot a 240-ish with woodies and a selfbow so I'm curious what the in between barebow and that would be.


Provided you could get a set of arrows to tune which gave you a 20-25yd POD (pretty easy) then something like a Sage should be able to shoot 240-250 within a year or so. Of course that is if you can actually dominate the weight for the full 60 arrows.
Maybe 20-30 points under that for a Hill bow with everything else being equal.

At 240 you've got lots of room for mistakes, shooting a 15 point end is recoverable. Once you pass 260 there isn't any room for 1s and 2s, past 280 there isn't any room for 3s.

I've seen a guy snapshoot a 60# Hill bow to a 240 score many times. But the next day he couldn't break 200 and he required a LOT of warm-up before the arrows started to find the middle. He's also been shooting like that for years and stayed around the same skill level (which is better than I could do with that equipment).

-Grant


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Makes sense. Thanks for the reiteration Viper, I see nothing wrong with that class system and am not quite sure why it's not used any more.



grantmac said:


> Something about your technique or equipment isn't compatible with success, likely it's the technique bit.
> For me it would be a no-brainer. Look at how the good shooters shoot and then shoot that way.
> 
> -Grant


Basically sums up the easiest and really most logical route.


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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Did my first NFAA 300 at 15 yds today and scored 247. A big difference compared 10 yds. I rushed a bit as it got a bit dark but, overall, I can see improving on what I did today.
20, 18, 18, 24, 20, 20, 17, 23, 21, 23, 21, 22.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

It is amazing what just 5 yards can do to any slight form error.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Something about your technique or equipment isn't compatible with success, likely it's the technique bit.
> For me it would be a no-brainer. Look at how the good shooters shoot and then shoot that way.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, If I had your expectations I would have burned my bows years ago. I am a part time backyard archer not some future IBO word champ. trad archery inspired me and I was intrigued to try something with a challenge. I soon realized it was a discilpline like no other but more fun then I could have imagined. Its a long road for me, a voyage, and Im going to enjoy every minute of it. lots of great archers on here to watch and learn from, They help inspire me and keep the burning desire to become something. You have to realize people have different goals and different levels of skill and training. Its not about scores and chest pounding, its about making myself a better person in life through the world of traditional archery.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Problem is we can sometimes limit ourselves with poor technique or issues like being over bowed. I think Grant means to shoot with the same technique the good shooters use. Not sure if I'll hit that within a year, and goals can definitely vary, but if you're striving to get better and it isn't working, something needs to change most likely.


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## ncheels (Jun 3, 2009)

Wasn't planning to shoot the 300 tonight but did anyway. 2 nights in a row, after no shooting for 2 weeks had me tiring early. But regardless, I took my lumps and went from 247 to 241. And it felt like a much worse 241. As the light faded, I switched up my gap aim and went from both eyes open to one eye open, which helped me see the gap better. So now I'd like to ask the experienced 300 shooters what technique they use. One eye open or both eyes open when gapping?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I have been shooting with one eye open but there was a gap thread earlier this week were they talked about both eyes open. I think they call it split vision or gap instinctive. It sounded intriguing. But I have enough going on with my form work that I think I will stick to the one eye open. My lighter limbs helped shrink my gap down at 20 yards.

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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Don't fall in the category of a "good" 300 shooter but I can't-not shoot both eyes open; I was trained to shoot scoped rifles that way and have been shooting everything that way since. I think it's important to get the nock consistently under your "aiming" eye and using string position for reference, makes it easier to stay consistent. I don't like one eye open as I think fine aiming and distance estimation is more accurate with both eyes. Not that you'd keep one eye open while checking distance, but two eyes lend much better depth perception (which is why we're two-eyed creatures).


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Richard - 

It depends on how strongly eye dominant you are.
If there's no chance of the "wrong" eye taking over, both eyes open is fine.
If there is any competition between the eyes, then closing the one you're not supposed to be using is safer. 

Viper1 out.


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

MGF said:


> I use some very light bows and even a rubber band for form practice but I don't want to get too used to a bow that's not of legal hunting weight in the states where I'm likely to hunt. Well, legal and of a weight that seems reasonable. 35 pounds is legal in my state. I'm not saying that a 35 pound bow can't kill a deer but I think it's really pushing it.
> 
> I've thought about this a lot since I'm getting old (maybe wise) and don't want to shoot the heavy bows that I used to shoot. To me a bow is a weapon and the purpose of target shooting is to prepare for using the bow as a weapon. If the bow is too light for use as a weapon (whatever too light is), there's no point to the exercise.


Au contraire ! ! ! 

Ballet is a dance, to music. But practice at the bar, in front of the mirror, without music, is all part of the form and technique. 

Let's see if I can find an analogy here that's a bit less swishy -- 

Speed bag work (boxing) develops hand/eye coordination, speed, accuracy w/o heavy punching, sparring in the ring, working on the heavy bag. Technique and form are about technique and form, not about shooting at "fighting weight." 

My 25# recurve shows me things about my form and technique that I don't realize while I'm battling the draw weight of something heavier.



> Don't fall in the category of a "good" 300 shooter but I can't-not shoot both eyes open; I was trained to shoot scoped rifles that way and have been shooting everything that way since. I think it's important to get the nock consistently under your "aiming" eye and using string position for reference, makes it easier to stay consistent. I don't like one eye open as I think fine aiming and distance estimation is more accurate with both eyes. Not that you'd keep one eye open while checking distance, but two eyes lend much better depth perception (which is why we're two-eyed creatures).


Probably tangential and off the wall -- 

Both eyes open for trap shooting (clay pigeons). I'm right-eye dominant, but I can't shoot long guns w/ both eyes open. For trap I swing to the bird w/ both eyes open, sight the lead and down the barrel w/ one eye, open both eyes and shoot. 

Yeah, for sure a lot of coordination going on, a lot of eye work to think about while aiming at a moving target. But I shoot both eyes open w/ the bow, instinctive -- But I concede that I look at "gap" while holding and focusing on the target down range. 

There's more than one way to do it. Nobody says you can't have at it using more than one, singular technique.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Of course - you might be better off shooting one eye closed while gapping. I find that as long as I make sure the string alignment is consistent it all works out fine. I just personally like shooting two eyes open and since I shoot scoped rifles that way switching focus doesn't bother me.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

airwolf said:


> Grant, If I had your expectations I would have burned my bows years ago. I am a part time backyard archer not some future IBO word champ. trad archery inspired me and I was intrigued to try something with a challenge. I soon realized it was a discilpline like no other but more fun then I could have imagined. Its a long road for me, a voyage, and Im going to enjoy every minute of it. lots of great archers on here to watch and learn from, They help inspire me and keep the burning desire to become something. You have to realize people have different goals and different levels of skill and training. Its not about scores and chest pounding, its about making myself a better person in life through the world of traditional archery.


You post a lot about not making progress, that would make ME throw my bows in the sea. Different personalities perhaps, but if I was stuck in one place for years I'd be tearing my hair out.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over waiting for a different result. Far too often people involved in Trad are told to "just practice more" or "just try harder" or "it just takes time". None of that is true at the lower levels. Every couple of session should see improvement until you get to the levels where you are fighting for every point and that level is about 260 or so, maybe a little lower with your equipment.

The only aspect of archery which I feel makes me a better person is when it enables me to help other people. 


P.S. For the guys debating one eye vs two. Just remember this: don't aim too hard. When I close one eye my focus shifts further towards aiming then I like. Unless I'm in a very relaxed state it is extremely hard to keep the focus on form. The 4 ring really isn't that small and if you can keep the arrows inside it you are going to shoot +270 guaranteed.

-Grant


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I had a good day shooting yesterday 246 at 20 yards. Worked on keeping bow shoulder down, bow arm solid before and after the shot. My shot sequence really seemed to click for me. I had a really good rhythm going no rushing my shoots and let down on 6 of my shots took a couple of deep breaths and redid my shot sequence.
I also find that I have better shots when I don't dwell on aiming so hard. Set my arrow point were I want it and pretty much release after that. Both eyes open through out first 3/4's of my shot sequence once I settle in close my one eye set my arrow point, open both eyes, release and watch arrow path.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shot a 171 at 20 meters today. This is the third time I have shot this bow (21" Excel with long 34# W&W/SF "Premium" Carbon limbs). This bow pulls 40#s at my 30" pull and is the one I will focus on for the next few 300s.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Wseward, Have you ever started out at a closer range to build up some confidence? I started out at 10 yards and once I achieved that goal moved out to 15 yards. I have not hit my goal of 270 at 15 yet, coming in pretty close though. Now I shoot some rounds at 20 yards and some at 15 yards. 
It was hard posting some of my scores at the beginning, shooting from only 10 yards, but I quickly realized hey I am new and have to start somewhere. Also never heard one disparaging word just words of encouragement.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Arron, yes I shot a 242 from 12 yards some time ago. Will be shooting both 12 yards and 20 meters. 24# limbs for 12 yards and 34# limbs for 20 meters. Just want to try 20 meters every once in a while.

I would have hit the barn only 3 times (9 goose eggs total!) this time! ;-)


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Great advice Grant!

And guys, thanks for continually posting scores. It's great to see progress and hear what works and what doesn't, as well as what is focused on. Arron, you're doing fantastic - how long have you been shooting now? And with which bow?

wseward: Keep up the good work!


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, I have been shooting since Jan of this year. I do most of my 300's with my Horizon set up but do a few now and then with the Omega. Just much more accurate at this point with the Horizon recurve but I have made improvement with the Omega as well. I haven't shoot to many 300's these past few months. My wife's family has a summer place in northern WI and found a great range just 10 miles from the cottage. It has a great practice area w/a elevated shooting platform and a wonderful field course. Just have to battle the mosquitos at times. My wife and kids pretty much spend the summer up there so I make the trek up most weekends. One of the targets in the practice range is a FITA target so I have been having fun with that as well. Been pacing off 30, 40 and 50 yards and shooting bare bow at that. I should look up scoring for that and score myself. Maybe this week since I am up for the week here.
As a side note I see Kegan is putting the finishing touches on a 3 piece recurve. I think I know what I will be saving my pennies for.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Arron: That sounds great! It's a blast when you can shoot longer range without worrying about misses.

That's great shooting though, keep up the good work!


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

grantmac said:


> I honestly believe that the average archer, with a bow they can dominate for the whole 60 arrows and set-up to be point-on around 20yds should be able to progress into the 260+ range within a year. If you are stuch under 240 for more than a year then something clearly isn't working and you need to address that, because 240 really isn't that hard to break.
> My first 300 score was something like 170 and the next year I was averaging 275.
> 
> -Grant


I respect what you are saying but if that is the cold hard facts....I suck!!


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

^ Me too.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

mrjeffro said:


> I respect what you are saying but if that is the cold hard facts....I suck!!


Keep in mind it does somewhat depends what/how you're shooting. A rest will usually be more accurate, and a barebow rig will usually be more accurate than a longbow, etc.

That said, sucking isn't that bad. When you suck and nothing changes, that's unfortunate. But realizing you suck (relatively speaking), figuring out why that is and making changes for improvement is what makes this game fun.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I'd venture to say that a bow that is too heavy is the biggest hold up for progression. There is a guy I shoot with that just will not go lighter - he shoots a Black Widow at around 58# for everything. Of our little group he has also been shooting the longest and consistently shoots the worst. He just refuses to go lighter, macho thing I suppose - personally, I'd rather shoot a 35# bow and hit what I'm aiming at.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Definitely with you there center.

Sometimes it's not even dropping down to 35# but simply down to 50# or even 45# that can be the difference between manageable and consistently fatiguing.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Honestly guys: 
I'm not an exceptional archer and scoring 240 on the 300 round isn't that hard.

What I am good at is understand how changing one thing will effect another and making decisions based on the result I'm trying to achieve.

"just try harder" and "just practice more" aren't going to get you past 240 if you've got some sort of fundamental flaw in your form or equipment.

My biggest gain came from shooting a weight I can dominate and finding an arrow which got my point-on somewhere on the paper.

-Grant


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Shooting with good/consistent form and a repeatable aiming method.............sounds like a receipt for success to me. Getting to 240 should go fairly quickly for most guys - those 10 point increments get harder and harder after that. Anything in the 260's is very respectable in my book, 270+ is exceptional, 280's is uncharted territory for me.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

It does matter what you shoot though to a degree, right? I.e. off the shelf recurve/longbow with no stab vs. barebow rig?

I thought I remember "good" being listed as:
-220 selfbow with woodies
-240 with longbow/recurve off the shelf
-260 barebow rig


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I had my fill of posting scores after that guy called me a liar because I said I shot a 260 but I just got in from doing a jig out in the back yard after shooting a 20 yard group with that cheap little (about 48 inches) all glass bow that I picked up for carrying in the canoe. Yesterday, I was doing the same little dance while shooting my hickory board bow.

I'm not saying that some set-ups or some bows won't shoot better than others but I'm pretty convinced that at 20 yards it's mostly me.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

MGF: You shoot 260's with selfbows? Is it wood arrows that do people in score wise then? Jimmy has a video of him shooting a 240-something.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

There are definitely some points in your gear, but for he most part it's the Indian. A self bow with wood arrows is not going to be as consistent as a modern laminated limb bow with aluminum or carbon arrows. With my target setup I usually shoot in the 260's with an occasional 270's round. With my heavier hunting setup it typically drops off about 10 points. Many times with the heavier bow I'll just shoot one end (20 arrows) and see where I'm at somewhere around 85-87 points and I'm ready to hunt.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Good to know! So biggest bow factors will usually be manageable weight and arrows more than anything else? That's some solid shooting, good to know what to work towards. Shot half a 300 round the other day (string is an issue right now and ran out of time) and I was right around 110 so I'm happy with the jump already (my last 300 round was 202, haven't shot one in a while).


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Centershot- You are so right on achieving those last 10 point increments. Can be a bugger for sure. But sure is a great feeling once conquered! 

CFGuy- Have you ever tried a FITA round? I have watched Jimmy's video's on them, hence giving it a try up north here. Finding it actually kind of fun. Or I should say hard but fun.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Arron: Would love to but don't have the range for it here. Love shooting longer shots, find it way easier to focus on making the shot clean.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

CFGuy said:


> MGF: You shoot 260's with selfbows? Is it wood arrows that do people in score wise then? Jimmy has a video of him shooting a 240-something.


No. I haven't shot a 300 round with my board bow yet. All my 300 rounds were with the PSE stalker. I've been liking the way I've been shooting with the board bow though.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

CFGuy, I just posted over on the FITA forum my results from doing a barebow short metric shoot today. 36 shots from 50m and 36 shots from 30m. 
I was certainly a fun time I thought! Great learning experience.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Again...171. This time with completely different arrows. This time used Easton Carbon Storm 340s Full length with 200g tips and 5" feathers (1 arrow had 4" vanes to check clearance). Last time was Easton Carbon Storm (ECS) 400s with 125 tips and 4" feathers. One tuning "end" showed the ECS 400s like 100g tips better and the ECS 340 with 200g tips flew real nice and the bow was so much quieter. So ECS 340s for now.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shot a 181 today at 20 meters using a sight (and a "stab/weight" I made). Thought I would do much better...oh well...next time. I learned it is hard to aim if you do not have consistent form. I really look forward to getting back to instinctive shooting with out the sight and "stab/weight", yet think I will learn a lot dialing in the rig as it is now. Especially at longer distances.
Target after last 300 and this one shoot today (120 shots):







Best round of 5:







I will move the sight a little bit right, go to lighter limbs (I stopped shooting for awhile and already lost conditioning; will try 24-30# limbs rather than 34# used today), shoot at shorter distances, try a 16 strand string (used a 12 strand today), and then try 20m again soon.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Just tallied today's 300 score, 193, and I moved from Archer to Bowman...cool!
Archer 0 –189 (D – class)
Bowman 190 – 209 (C – class)
Expert B 210 – 249 (B – class)
Expert A 250 – 279 (A – class)
Expert AA 280 – 300 (AA – class)
Allowed myself three warm up shoots:







Then started in the 3-8 knot left to right crosswind (gusts to 10 or 12). Did not wait for lulls...just shot what I got. Used instinctive on a 15" Recon riser with long W&W/SF Axiom 24# limbs for approx. 32-33# at my 30 " draw. Quite happy...and going to break 200 soon!


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

wseward said:


> Allowed myself three warm up shoots


Why only 3?


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

I only allowed myself three warm up shots as that is all I think I need.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Takes me 20 -30 shots at 46# to warm up enough, sometimes more. Higher draw weights will speed it up a little though.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Next time I will try more warm up shots and see if it helps. One time I tuned before the 300 which required 20-30 shots.

I also have tried to do some non bow warm up drills prior to shooting and now realize that this time I forgot. OPPS...good I was only shooting 33#s.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

That's the way! :thumbs_up

Its very important to try different things, even if it doesn't work out better you still haven't lost anything. Some archers shoot better until they warm up but I will leave that story for another time.


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## DEAc23 (Jun 7, 2013)

Where should I start for my first 300 round? I was thinking 10 or 15 yards, or should I just start out at 20yds? Also if anyone has any recommendations on some cheap paper targets (for 300 rds obviously) I can attach to my DIY bag targets I'd appreciate a link or two.

Oh and Destroyer, I miss your old Avatar :laugh:


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

For my warm up I will shot a full end of 20 arrows.

DEAc23-I set my goal at 260 at 10yards then moved out to 15 yards until I hit 260 then moved out to 20 yards. Gets harder to reach 260 each move out.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

DEAc23: I started at 12yrds as that is where I could group. Hope to shoot at that distance again soon...at a 5 spot target.


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Just so you know, an "end" is five arrows, and the rules allow two practice ends before scoring starts. If you went to a tournament, you'd probably get to shoot more for practice if you arrived early enough.

I notice targets on the ground - if you could get them up to where you're shooting nearly level it would probably be a lot easier...


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Targets on the ground, slightly uphill works well also.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Arrowwood said:


> and the rules allow two practice ends before scoring starts.


And the point of this is?



DEAc23 said:


> 10 or 15 yards


15 yards would be more of a test.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Destroyer said:


> And the point of this is?


Shooters who know what they're doing generally like to warm up and get loose. So the rules allow two ends of warm up.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> Shooters who know what they're doing generally like to warm up and get loose. So the rules allow two ends of warm up.


So by allowing warm up it encourages ppl to do so? My question is about the 'limiting' number of warm up shots.


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## DEAc23 (Jun 7, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I figure I will set up a level target at 12yds first, and then move to 16yds when I feel comfortable enough to do so (and eventually 20yds of course).


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Tournaments start at a certain time, and when they do start, you get two practice ends. 

Like I said before, if you get there early you can probably shoot as much as you like.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Arrowwood said:


> Like I said before, if you get there early you can probably shoot as much as you like.


And ppl here can't do that or are you getting them ready for Indoor?


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

OK so next I will try two ends (10 arrows) for warm up, after I do my non-bow warm up drills. Also I may even change the target elevation as the rules specify.

Actually read some of the rules. Just forgot them already...it's good they are written down. However, for sure I am staying outdoors. It is just so nice out!


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

218..."Expert B" now made:







Used a 21" Hoyt Excel with long limbs WW/SF Premium Carbon limbs rated at 34# (pulling 41# at 30"), a pin sight and a 4" stab. Found myself collapse a lot (can really see collapse with a pin sight), thus the low shots. Really cute was when I would collapse and then not follow through to look around/over the bow site to see how bad it was! Next time!


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Nice!! Congrats….. :darkbeer:


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Shot a 300 after taking a long break and scored 222. Used a 21" Excel with long WWSF Elite+ carbon limbs for 40#s at 30" and Beeman ICSH Hunter 400s cut to 30 7/8" with 125g tips up front...5" feathers at the back.

Last end:


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

My mantra while shooting the last 300 was...

...five degrees...string blur...point float...

and when I said, instead, to myself...

...five degrees...string blur...point float...point float...

...I shot better.


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