# 2nd nocking point under the arrow for 3 under shooting?



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I think you summed it up well. A second nocking point below the arrow is probably not needed often for the slipping issue, but slipping is a possibility so why not just eliminate it.

I've used two nocking point for years, way before I saw the videos that showed the possibility that the nock could slip down the string. I did it because I could nock an arrow and hang up my bow, or set it in my lap, and never have to look down to make sure the nock was up against the nocking point. It also helped with a compound before d-loops were popular to avoid upward pressure from the release on the string.

I shoot split finger for whatever that's worth.

A brass nocking point works fine for above the nock and a three under shooter but I'd recommend a tied in nocking point under the nock to avoid excessive wear on your glove or tab. I use tied in nocking points both above and below and use white BCY #3D for good visibility in low light.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Better safe than sorry. There is a reason why nearly all top archers use a second nock set.

KPC


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I believe it's allowed in most formats but when they mention a second nocking point they are referring to another nocking point tied onto the string in a lower position like a fixed crawl. That is not allowed.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You have to contact the arrow nock under NFAA trad rules.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I guess you would call it a mini crawl


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

dnelsen said:


> I just recently started shooting 3 under, and I currently don't have a second nocking point to go under the arrow. I've noticed that some people do, and some people don't...
> 
> I'm considering doing it. It seems like a good idea to me, since A) I like how I could put my finger tab up against the lower nocking point and not have my finger tab contact the arrow at all, and B) It would eliminate the possibility of the arrow slipping down the string upon release (although I'm not sure how real of a concern this is, since I'm not strong walking).
> *
> ...




Just for clarification, NFAA allows 2 nock locators in both *"Barebow"* and *"Traditional."*

*Barebow:

4. One consistent nocking point only is permitted and may be held by one or two nock
locators, which shall be snap on type, shrink tubing, thread or dental floss, tied or served on
the serving. Nocking point locators shall not extend more than one half inch (1/2”) above
or below the arrow nock when at full draw*



*Traditional:

6. The string may be of any color but must have a single color center serving. One single
nocking point is permitted. One or two nock locators may be used. Brush buttons and string
silencers, properly placed may be used. Any other marks or string attachments will be
illegal.

8. The archer shall touch the arrow when nocked and drawing the arrow with the index finger
against the nock. Finger position may not be changed during competition. In the case of
physical disability of the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers.*

Only in the *"Traditional"* class is there a requirement for the index finger touching the nock.

KPC


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

I like adjustable tied on nocking points so much I use three!


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I've been shooting with 3 nock locators. The tab is against the bottom one, and the arrow between the other two. I guess i've been doing it wrong here at home. I can move up against the arrow, I guess. It'll change the gap some, but doable. I learned about the fixed crawl on utube, and it works great. I figured it'd be great for 3d, and hunting also. .... Lunger


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## Ringlight (May 5, 2015)

Two nocks keep the arrow in the same place each time. Archery is all about consitency.


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## fishgutzy (Oct 21, 2014)

I've only ever used one nock point. But that is how I was taught. Index finger touches the arrow so for me the second nock point is not useful. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

fishgutzy said:


> I've only ever used one nock point. But that is how I was taught. Index finger touches the arrow so for me the second nock point is not useful.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Likewise, but I was wondering if the arrow could slide down the string after release. See the video that was posted above, showing this exact phenomenon happening.


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## fishgutzy (Oct 21, 2014)

dnelsen said:


> Likewise, but I was wondering if the arrow could slide down the string after release. See the video that was posted above, showing this exact phenomenon happening.


Mine don't seem to. But when I think about it, that could explain why I can a spread of groups. Maybe some of my nocks are just a little bit looser. 
Gonna have to give it a try when I get home from China. Got plenty of brass rings nock points. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Years ago I replaced the string on my bow. The serving was a bit narrower, but the arrow snapped on the string okay. I began to notice that now and again I'd have an arrow fly unusually high. After a bit of frustration, I tied another nocking point below the arrow nock. The occasional high-flyer went away. I've been using two ever since.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Ok that settles it. Second nocking point is going on. Other than NFAA Trad Rules, there doesn't seem to be any reason not to.

Next logical question: Why isn't this done more with split finger? Because it would force the fingers to spread too far perhaps? 

I ask because the same "might slip down the string after release" problem could still be in play with split finger.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Is it ok to use normal pliers with a crimp-on nocking point? Or is the proper tool really critical?


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

dnelsen said:


> Is it ok to use normal pliers with a crimp-on nocking point? Or is the proper tool really critical?


Nevermind, I should have searched first. The answer is no, because you might over-crimp and damage the string, and you might end up with a sharp burr on the nock point.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

dnelsen said:


> Is it ok to use normal pliers with a crimp-on nocking point? Or is the proper tool really critical?


You can but it's harder to get a nice even crimp. I have a pair that I don't use anymore that you're welcome to. PM me your address and you can have them.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Sauk Mountain said:


> You can but it's harder to get a nice even crimp. I have a pair that I don't use anymore that you're welcome to. PM me your address and you can have them.


Thanks so much for the offer! But I'd hate to put you through the trouble of shipping it when I can get one for a few bucks from the pro shop.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

dnelsen said:


> Thanks so much for the offer! But I'd hate to put you through the trouble of shipping it when I can get one for a few bucks from the pro shop.


No problem.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

dnelsen said:


> Ok that settles it. Second nocking point is going on. Other than NFAA Trad Rules, there doesn't seem to be any reason not to.


In the words of one of our residents experts, if you don't tie on a lower nock locator, *"You're an idiot - and I mean that in the truest sense of the word. There's NO logical reason"* to *NOT* use one.

:wink:



dnelsen said:


> Next logical question: Why isn't this done more with split finger? Because it would force the fingers to spread too far perhaps?
> 
> I ask because the same "might slip down the string after release" problem could still be in play with split finger.


The easiest answer is that *IT IS* done with split finger. Virtually every top level FITA or Olympic shooter uses a lower nock set, and they all shoot split finger.









KPC


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Always two, never brass.


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## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

I like brass. Gives me a solid stop when sliding the tab up the string. What is the downside to brass?


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

The four finalists at the 2017 Lancaster Archery Classic, Barebow division. All these guys use two locators. Wonder why?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

moog5050 said:


> I like brass. Gives me a solid stop when sliding the tab up the string. What is the downside to brass?


Can't do that in a class that requires contact with the arrow nock.

Downsides are tab wear and weight.


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## ralluri (Mar 9, 2015)

GEREP said:


> Better safe than sorry. There is a reason why nearly all top archers use a second nock set.
> 
> KPC


Thanks. The video makes it very clear why it's better for having two nocks. 
After spend so much time fine tuning for Barebow target shooting, having two nocks eliminates the chances of an accidental high flier.



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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

grantmac said:


> Can't do that in a class that requires contact with the arrow nock.
> 
> Downsides are tab wear and weight.


While I understand that this is the letter of the law in NFAA and IBO "Traditional" class, I have never heard of anyone that has ever been disqualified for bringing a tab up to a single nock set in either NFAA or IBO.

*IBO*

_*20. Traditional (TRD)

A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted.*_

Has anyone else ever seen anyone actually be disqualified for touching a single nock set and not the nock itself?

Maybe it has happened, but I've never seen it or heard of it happening.

KPC


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

I use two and always will, takes so little time to do and takes out some of the what ifs. Plus i just dont like having my hand again the nock.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It's still cheating if you don't get caught.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

grantmac said:


> It's still cheating if you don't get caught.


Cheating where? The only rules I will be encountering in the foreseeable future are at the Ace Archers barebow league, and they are fine with it.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

So I tried a second brass nock for the first time today.

Can't tell if it did anything for my accuracy, but I really like how the arrow snaps into that one and only spot, and I don't have to worry about it moving during the shot. One less thing to worry about is reason enough.

Happy I did it.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

dnelsen said:


> I really like how the arrow snaps into that one and only spot, and I don't have to worry about it moving during the shot.


To each their own, but I don't like my nock sets too tight against the nock. I don't want the string angle at full draw to cause them to pinch the nock.









KPC


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

GEREP said:


> To each their own, but I don't like my nock sets too tight against the nock. I don't want the string angle at full draw to cause them to pinch the nock.
> 
> View attachment 5702305
> 
> ...


Yeah that's about how my nocking points are too. I just meant that it's nice to not have to worry about it slipping any more than that.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sounds good dnelson. 

Some people will never experience nock slip and some people will. Every setup is different in terms of nock fit, string angle, serving wear, release, etc. 

I look at it like I do a seat belt. You may go through your entire life and never have an accident, but there is just no good reason in my opinion not to wear one. You may never need it or it just might save your life (or your shot).

:thumbs_up 

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> So I tried a second brass nock for the first time today.
> 
> Can't tell if it did anything for my accuracy, but I really like how the arrow snaps into that one and only spot, and I don't have to worry about it moving during the shot. One less thing to worry about is reason enough.
> 
> Happy I did it.


Barring your knocks were not sloppy-fit loose to begin with, without a bank of scores before and a bank of scores after, there really would be no way to tell if it did anything. The efficacy of it is measured in our mind as much as reality. Now, if it did all of a sudden cause things to improve, then, for me, I would be looking at changing my entire set up so that a reliance on it was not needed. That's irrespective of whether I use two or not.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

grantmac said:


> It's still cheating if you don't get caught.


While I understand what you are saying, at some point we have to pay more attention to the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. For example, NFAA states that in their barebow class, the arrow rest or side plate cannot extend more than 1/4" above the arrow.

I'm sure some rules Nazi could make an argument about these competitors *"cheating"* but everyone else would see it for what it was...sour grapes and foolishness. 









Same with someone bringing their tab up to a single nock set under the arrow nock and not the nock itself.

KPC


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

The only case I heard about cheating in the Traditional class was a year or so ago and I forget the tournament but the archer had a noticeable gap under the nock when he shot. It was close to 1/2" and someone took a picture and they had to talk to him.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The rest height only matters for the portion within the sight window.

Contacting the nock is explicitly dealt with in the rules. There isn't any grey area in my mind.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

grantmac said:


> The rest height only matters for the portion within the sight window.
> 
> Contacting the nock is explicitly dealt with in the rules. There isn't any grey area in my mind.





I know what you are saying, and I *totally* agree...which illustrates the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.


Most people understand what is intended, however nowhere in the NFAA Barebow rules does it say anything about the *"portion within the sight window."* It's actually clearly states *"any part of the arrow rest."* 


_*B. Barebow:

1. Archers shooting Barebow style will use bow, arrows, strings, and accessories free from
any sights, marks or blemishes that may be used as a sighting aid.

2. An adjustable arrow plate may be used provided it does not extend more than ¼” above the
arrow.

3. The use of stabilizers shall be permitted. The rear stabilizer shall not touch any part of the
body.

4. One consistent nocking point only is permitted and may be held by one or two nock
locators, which shall be snap on type, shrink tubing, thread or dental floss, tied or served on
the serving. Nocking point locators shall not extend more than one half inch (1/2”) above
or below the arrow nock when at full draw.

5. Only one adjustable draw check and level mounted on the bow, neither of which may
extend above the arrow and a mechanical type arrow rest and cushion plunger are
permitted.

6. Only gloves, tabs, or fingers shall be permitted, except in the case of physical disability of
the arms or hands, a chew strap may be used in place of fingers.

7. All arrows shall be identical in length, weight, diameter and fletching, with allowance for
wear and tear. Powder on the arrow points shall be permitted as a visual aid.

8. The ends or edges or laminated pieces appearing on the inside of the upper limb shall be
considered a sighting mechanism.

9. No device of any type, including arrow rest, that may be used for sighting, may be used or
attached to the archer’s equipment.

10. The pylon (string clearance bar) will be allowed in this style if it is not located in the sight
window.

11. Any part of the arrow rest extending more than ¼ inch above the arrow is deemed illegal in
the Barebow style. *_

Just like in your mind there is no gray area here, I feel the same way about bringing a tab up to a single lower nock point. The only time it would ever be an issue is if someone lost to someone that they didn't think they should lose to. People are petty that way.

KPC


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