# Hoyt 900CX Limb Failure



## mfriedma (Sep 28, 2009)

Just had a top limb tip explosively delaminate during a shot. There was quite a lot of noise and clutter. When the debris cloud cleared the limbs were on the ground, string hanging from the riser, arrow at my feet, and I was very puzzled. Kind of Charlie Brown like after a field goal attempt. Hoyt is closed for the weekend. Has anyone had to deal with Hoyt in such matters? I had purchased these second hand for a pretty reasonable price, but not to just have them self destruct. Would using only a 14 strand d97 string with tied on nock point contribute in any way? These were 38# medium length limbs on a 25" hoyt nexus riser. 9 1/8" brace height. Limb bolts about middle of their adjustment, 27 1/2" draw. I'm sure they will blame me for some kind of mistreatment. Guess I will find out this week when I get a chance to call.

Mark


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## mfriedma (Sep 28, 2009)

Correction: Brace height 8 7/8" to plunger button, within specs on hoyt's info sheet that came with limbs.


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## bobs1303 (Aug 7, 2007)

I think it may depend on how old the limbs are if Hoyt warranties them, they only cover the limbs for a year on recurves which I think is garbage since they will warrants the compounds for life for the original owner. 
Your string should have nothing to do with the limb failing you're not even drawing it back to 28in. 
I think it will come down to the customer serves agent you get. Wish you luck on this


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## wchamp06 (Apr 25, 2008)

*900CXlimbs*

I dont think Hoyt will warranty any part of a bow that was purchased from someone other than Hoyt or a Hoyt dealer. I hope they will. Wchamp06


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## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

Please let us know the outcome of this. I'm looking to upgrade my limbs but if Hoyt's warranty sucks I may not.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

Hoyt has some of the best customer service people out there...Talk to Mari or JD my two fav. reps. I had the same thing happen to a set of 900cx's this Feb. so your not alone. (little less explosive) but it looks like your limb broke right in the string groove just like mine. (only it was my bottom limb) 15 months old 3 months out of warranty and Hoyt sent me a new pair ....now if you bought them second hand I would recommend leaving that out of the conversation...its not a lie, its an omission... when you take it to the dealer to have them send it back to hoyt or if you send it back directly (I will bet they say to have it taken back to the dealer which you purchased them from) BE WARNED these limbs take about 6 weeks to replace! So your about to be out a bow for a month and a half probably. Nothing you can do about it less they have your limbs on the shelf ready to go. 
Good luck, and may the force be with you. ;-) ( I feel that Hoyt knows these limbs have problems they are willing to work with anyone who owns a pair that breaks, just be aware they have been discontinued.)


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## mfriedma (Sep 28, 2009)

I think I will look for a low poundage practice limb in the meantime. I hope they treat this the way Sage or Scott or any reputable fly rod company would. I would be willing to pay some sort of replacement fee ($25-50 for a fly rod that may cost $800). But to ask me to pay full price for a replacement would be bad PR. They would probably lose me as a customer and I would likely buy one of their competitor's limbs instead. I'll post updates as this develops.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i real feel for you mfriedma...am now not surprised the 900s are no longer in hoyt's 2010 line-up..i can only wish you the best of luck in getting them replaced...


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

*Hoyt Limb Failure*

Here is the quote from the Hoyt owner's manual.

"Hoyt recurve limbs are warranted for one (1) year. A dated proof of purchase is required for warranty coverage. Products must be purchased through a Hoyt authorized dealer for warranty coverage."

Maybe the person you bought the limbs from can help. 

Good luck on getting your limbs replaced.

Regards,


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I can't believe how bad Hoyt's limbs have been in the past 6 years. I'd be afraid to shoot any of them after all the failures I've seen.

Last good limbs Hoyt made were the Vectors IMO... 

They really need to get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

M1s were pretty good too....not too fast but very stable-ie-forgiving..but then they were an upgrade of the vectors and i had them both..


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

As far as I know, the 990TX don't break but I don't know nothing about how they works.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I can't believe how bad Hoyt's limbs have been in the past 6 years. I'd be afraid to shoot any of them after all the failures I've seen.
> 
> Last good limbs Hoyt made were the Vectors IMO...
> 
> ...


Totally with you-Vectors are very good limbs. There isn't anyone I know that is still using there first set of G3's and that makes me think. I also agree with jmvargas about the M1, not fast but I haven't seen one break. 
An addition to this: Victor Ruban has switched to Hoyt after winning gold with W&W at the 2008 Olympics (look in the new Hoyt catalog P41). I have heard this was due to 2 set of limbs breaking at the OS. I would like to have the reason conformed if that is possible.


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

VinZ said:


> I have heard this was due to 2 set of limbs breaking at the OS.


what is "OS"?


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

I know 3 friends that bought the 900cx, all 3 are broken, one twisted, other delaminated, another limb-tip blew up like yours. Personally I'll never use Hoyt limbs, until at least 3 new generation limbs without problems. A good responsible company should recall the problem products, I believe someone already get hurt. And Hoyt's one year warranty is bit short, compared to W&W's two years.
jx


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I am currently shooting the 900cx on my outdoor rig. My first pair of limbs twisted. This is my second pair. I am very disappointed that Hoyt has never acknowledged the early problems with the 900cx. Having said that, the limbs are smooth and fast. In my mind, the 990TX was a tacit admission that the 900cx was not what it should have been.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

gabe...the fact that the 900s are no longer in their 2010 line-up is another tacit admission of what you're saying...i think the 900cx could also be one of the shortest lived limbs in recent memory..


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

This is clearly a manufacturer defect in my opinion and reputable manufacturers will sometimes replace equipment like this, even when out of warranty. 

Their warranties and legal statements are for their protection, but it doesn't mean they won't help you. There are many who will abuse warranties and while it is unfortunate, companies have to protect themselves from that. I have only second hand information about it, but I believe Hoyt's warranty was the result of archery schools in a foreign country that were putting up to 500,000 arrows per year through each set of limbs, then sending them all back saying they had lost certain amount of poundage or had some type of issues, so they could get all new limbs. 

These are out of warranty and you weren't the original purchaser so they have no obligation to help you out, but I would be surprised if they didn't replace them for you.


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

ihavnt had any problems with my 990s and ive dry fired each set atleast once :zip: i havnt had any experience with the 900s though
chris


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

> There isn't anyone I know that is still using there first set of G3's and that makes me think.


Still using mine.

TAO


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## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

TheAncientOne said:


> Still using mine.
> 
> TAO


+1 here! Had them since 2004, and they get 200-1000 arrows a week. 

Probably 300 arrows a week on average for 46 weeks a year! More than 69000 shots total.

Try THAT with a rifle!


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

I have a set of G-3s that I bought second-hand. The previous owner can't remember if they were made in 2004 or 2006. Will the serial number tell me anything? 1000s of arrows have been through them, no problems, yet.
Thanks
Fritz


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## recurve fan (Oct 20, 2007)

I had the same thing happen to my limbs Hoyt replaced them without any hassle I did notice the 900cx limbs are no longer listed on hoyts web sight


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

My old G3 were used since february 2004 until middle of 2005. Then I sold them and they are still using.


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## pgp (Sep 11, 2008)

Purchased one pair of 900cx the year they came out. First pair came with a natural negative tiller, ie, with both bolts cranked all the way down, they were giving me a negative tiller of 3/8. So in order to get a positive tiller of say, 1/8, one bolt had to be let all out, the other one cranked right down to the bottom. No wiggle room left for any other settings. Dealer and I agreed right then and there the pair was poorly matched and returned it. Second pair took 9 weeks to arrive and paint on the underside started peeling off the second week. ( chunks alongside both grooves chaffing the loops and end servings). Returned them to the very understanding dealer who ( as he explained to me later) did not get much support from his supplier. He told me that in both cases, the supplier firmly stated that such problems had never been observed with these new limbs. 

I personally wrote a letter to Hoyt Head Office explaining that I was a faithful customer to their products but had been disappointed with the 900Cx. Polite letter just to indicate that a problem seemed to have arisen with their new limbs. I felt they would want to hear from their customers about that sort of thing. Never got an answer from them which surprised me as this letter didn't have a negative tone to it at all. I remember saying in it that I liked their products very much and felt that the problem with the 900cx must have been just a glitch in the system and that they would probably want to know about some of the issues. I am being told that they have a good customer service in general so may be I just got unlucky and my letter reached the wrong person at the wrong time...


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## mfriedma (Sep 28, 2009)

*Update*

No real luck so far. I did get ahold of hoyt. Not the 'how can we help you' experience I was hoping for. They denied any production problems with the 900cx limbs and said "hoyt makes the most durable limbs on the market". They will not deal directly with me, so I brought them to a dealer which they helped me locate. He is sending them back when he gets a return authorization number. I know that they are not under warrantee and it will be entirely up to their discretion as to how this is handled. They have not denied that they will replace them, but said that they will have their 'engineering' dept look at them to determine a cause of failure. I will just have to wait. I hope they understand that if they replace them I will be grateful and loyal. If not, the replacement limbs I purchse (to the tune of $550-650) will not be hoyts. Choice is theirs. Do companies actually value their customers any more?


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

Thread on another board:

http://www.archery-interchange.net/forum/recurve-bow-discussion-q/19421-hoyt-900cx-limb-failure.html

This kind of stuff is anecdotal (e.g., you hear about the problems); would be interested to know the general level of failure in all manufacturers' limbs relative to number of arrows or age.


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## pgp (Sep 11, 2008)

skybowman said:


> Thread on another board:
> 
> http://www.archery-interchange.net/forum/recurve-bow-discussion-q/19421-hoyt-900cx-limb-failure.html
> 
> This kind of stuff is anecdotal (e.g., you hear about the problems); would be interested to know the general level of failure in all manufacturers' limbs relative to number of arrows or age.


Yes, and relative to market share as well in fairness to manufacturers. 

Customer service would be another area of interest I think. What is the company's typical reaction when a product is observed by a third party such as the dealer himself to be deficient? To further the example I described in my previous post, when I returned the second pair of 900Cx, the Hoyt dealer asked if I wanted to order another one. I was really hesitant about this as I explained to him...What if there were another problem with the third pair? Would I be able to return them? According the dealer, his supplier had been difficult about the two pairs being returned already flatly stating that no problems had been reported before with the 900CX. With this stand in mind then, would he accept to exchange a third pair? Would I have to wait another 9 weeks to find out the glitches had not been fixed with these new first-year limbs? 

We decided it might be more prudent to order a pair of the more established G3s instead of the 900CX just to be on the sure side. The dealer ordered the G3s limbs and Hoyt okayed the exchange however refused to reimburse the purchasing price difference ( around $120). At the time, I was relieved about not having to deal with another pair of possible problem limbs and chucked the $120 loss as the cost of doing business. 
In retrospective though, this doesn't seem quite right to me now given that both pairs of 900CX had been defective and observed to be so by Hoyt's own dealer ( who by the way was helpful and supportive all throughout). 

Silver lining for me is that since I had bought the 900cx initially as an upgrade to my old G3s, I ended up buying another pair of limbs from a competitor and kept the new G3s as backup limbs. Was so pleasantly surprised with these limbs that I bought the matching riser and sold the whole Hoyt set-up ( two G3s and one Nexus). So at the end, the whole situation cost me a pretty penny but in the other hand, my disappointment with Hoyt's position on the 900cx/ G3s exchange prompted me to buy somewhere else and discover a set up which worked better for me. 

As I said before, this is just my own experience and might be an exception confirming a general Good Service Policy from Hoyt. Many others have found Hoyt to be a very good company to deal with. So many strokes for many folks, things got a bit costly ( you always loose reselling stuff even if new) but at the end they worked out for me.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> They denied any production problems with the 900cx limbs and said "hoyt makes the most durable limbs on the market"


ROTFLMAO! 

Hoyt makes some of the best risers in the world IMO, but this nonsense is pure fiction if you ask me. I've lost track of all the Hoyt limb failures I personally witnessed or heard about first hand from the user, and I don't even shoot that many events each year! Can't recall a single limb failure from Samick, and only a few from W&W (assoc. with their curved profile Synerzy's). Hoyt has some serious problems in their limb dept. dating back to the FX days. Sure wish they'd get that fixed before someone gets seriously hurt.



> but at the end they worked out for me


I guess we have different ideas of what "worked out" means. This doesn't sound like anything was "working out" :



> To further the example I described in my previous post, when I returned the second pair of 900Cx, the Hoyt dealer asked if I wanted to order another one. I was really hesitant about this as I explained to him...What if there were another problem with the third pair? Would I be able to return them? According the dealer, his supplier had been difficult about the two pairs being returned already flatly stating that no problems had been reported before with the 900CX. With this stand in mind then, would he accept to exchange a third pair? Would I have to wait another 9 weeks to find out the glitches had not been fixed with these new first-year limbs?


Totally unacceptable IMO. There never should have even been a second pair, much less a consideration of a third!

I've probably been through 20 pairs of ILF (yes, ILF) limbs in the past 6 years, starting with older Gold Medalist C+, Sky jack carbons, PSE Centra carbons, PSE X-pressions, Samick Masters, Samick Extreme and BF, TradTech carbon/wood, Winact and many sets of SKY Conquests. I have never, ever, not even once had a failure or a weird experience with any of these limbs. Why these new Hoyt limbs can't seem to stay together is mind boggling to me. 

John.


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## ZephyrSoul (Nov 12, 2007)

mfriedma, you should just send a link to this thread to Hoyt in your next correspondence with them to show them the amount of bad publicity they are getting from this.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I've got a feeling that this thread is probably known to them. 
What I'd like to see is Hoyt telling its 900CX users that they are willing to give them a discount to upgrade to the 990TX. I feel like I'm hanging onto an Edsel. Resale values are going to be less because the short lived 900CX is perceived as being inferior. We customers who supported Hoyt by buying the 900CX, need a little love from Hoyt.


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## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

based on a couple PM conversations with Hoyt people I would not be surprised if they're making you go "by the book" BECAUSE you posted it on here first!

If you went to them first they would be free to take care of you directly- by coming here first you force them to follow their published procedures.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Shinigami3 said:


> based on a couple PM conversations with Hoyt people I would not be surprised if they're making you go "by the book" BECAUSE you posted it on here first!
> 
> If you went to them first they would be free to take care of you directly- by coming here first you force them to follow their published procedures.


Nonsense. Hoyt isn't "forced" to follow procedure by a public discussion, they can **always** choose to go above and beyond their minimum level of service, and it would have been smart for Hoyt to have gone the extra mile in this instance so we could all be talking about what a great job Hoyt has done trying to make up for their terrible 900cx design and and QA rather thank us all talking about what a bad job they have done. The idea that Hoyt is being recalcitrant as some sort of revenge for a public disclosure is an idea that would reflect poorly on Hoyt not on the person who revealed the problem.


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I've got a feeling that this thread is probably known to them.
> What I'd like to see is Hoyt telling its 900CX users that they are willing to give them a discount to upgrade to the 990TX. I feel like I'm hanging onto an Edsel. Resale values are going to be less because the short lived 900CX is perceived as being inferior. We customers who supported Hoyt by buying the 900CX, need a little love from Hoyt.


That's a great idea! 

Hoyt could do a "Cash for clunkers" program, giving people trade in value for previous limb designs, toward the latest Hoyt limbs. The result would be more Hoyt limbs in use, more revenue for Hoyt, more recognition for Hoyt, and a real opportunity for them to push their new limbs and bring in a new era of Hoyt recurves. Now that's some marketing you can stick a fork into.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Borja1300 said:


> what is "OS"?


Oops...did not translation it (must be the beer :darkbeer. OS means Olympic Games.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> based on a couple PM conversations with Hoyt people I would not be surprised if they're making you go "by the book" BECAUSE you posted it on here first!
> 
> If you went to them first they would be free to take care of you directly- by coming here first you force them to follow their published procedures.


If this is indeed true, then it is one of the most dissapointing, inappropriate things I've ever heard about a major equipment manufacturer. Changing the way they deal with someone based on a post on a message forum? Are you kidding me? I hope for their sake that is simply not true. Professional is professional, regardless of what others are "saying" about you. The only way to counter gossip is to do the right thing, every time.

John.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> If this is indeed true, then it is one of the most dissapointing, inappropriate things I've ever heard about a major equipment manufacturer. Changing the way they deal with someone based on a post on a message forum? Are you kidding me? I hope for their sake that is simply not true. Professional is professional, regardless of what others are "saying" about you. *The only way to counter gossip is to do the right thing, every time.*
> 
> John.


[emphasis added]
That would sound like the best approach to me. However, at the very least, Hoyt should respond positively to public incidents, where a little extra service (the kind they should give to everyone) can go a long way in terms of PR.


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I've probably been through 20 pairs of ILF (yes, ILF) limbs in the past 6 years, starting with older Gold Medalist C+, Sky jack carbons, PSE Centra carbons, PSE X-pressions, Samick Masters, Samick Extreme and BF, TradTech carbon/wood, Winact and many sets of SKY Conquests. I have never, ever, not even once had a failure or a weird experience with any of these limbs. Why these new Hoyt limbs can't seem to stay together is mind boggling to me.
> 
> John.


John, when I first started shooting in 1995-1996, I bought a brand new Avalon and carbon + limbs from hoyt. My first 2 sets of carbon+ limbs were twisted. (That was about a 16 week process, just to shoot my first real recurve set-up) My first non-twisted set came from a trade to someone else who had a straight pair. Those limbs worked great for me for the next 3.5 years that I shot on the A&M team. But even then, Hoyt's quality control was a known issue, and from what I can tell 14 years later, it still seems to be a problem for them. Maybe not twisting anymore, just other types of failures. But like you, seen too many, and heard of too many bad experiences with their limbs. I always wonder why in the world they put so much into their risers, which I think are very nice, instead of seriously improving their recurve limbs. I really hope they're on to something with their formula. We'll see.

If they just built their recurve products as well as their compound products...

Gig'em


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i believe one of the reasons why hoyt recurve risers have remained very good all these years is that the technology involved in recurve risers are not that much different from the ones for compound..and hoyt presumably spends a lot of r&d on compounds..

limb technology for both types however are entirely different and hoyt does not really spend or devote much time or effort in recurve technology(they are way behind borders and the koreans in torsional stability)...lately they have been more of followers in that area vs being the leaders in compound...JMHO.


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## adnoh (Apr 4, 2008)

*limbs*

What happens if someone gets hurt? With all these posts here how can anyone sell them?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If they just built their recurve products as well as their compound products...


Well they do,

But just for the first 23-27" or so... 

John.


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## John K (Dec 13, 2004)

Limbs of any brand can fail. It's the nature of the beast.

However, how the company stands behind its product speaks volumes.

Border, for example, have even been known to replace limbs over two years old and not owned by the original purchaser; or at the very least give a discount. They even offer a crash replacement service - a US bowhunter reversed over his new Black Douglas with his truck, so they sold him a replacement at cost plus tax.

W&W have, to my certain knowledge, helped out archers having problems with W&W limbs faced with dealers unwilling to help them, despite their limbs breaking less than a year after purchase.

Both W&W and Border, and other archery companies, admit when they make mistakes. Only one company I can think of is unwilling to admit mistakes publicly, in the face of all available evidence.

Who do you trust? The company that admits its mistakes and does its best to rectify them, or the one that doesn't?


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

the fact that the hoyt 900CX limb is no longer in the 2010 line is a tacit admission by hoyt that it is a failure..it's only some of their spokesmen that can't seem to admit it...

if i owned a 900CX now i would really be in a hurry to get rid of it...but that's just me..


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

Folks lets not let this degrade into a this is "my better is better than your better" thread kind of thing...I know its easy to do but Hoyt will stand behind their products...most archery companies will. 

Working archery retail now for 4 years has taught me one thing...

Reputation is everything.

Its good business sense for those companies that understand that you treat a guy good the one time he has a problem, you have his business for life; vs. not taking care of him the one time he has a problem and he takes his money elsewhere.

Everyone acts like the 900cx is some diabolical scheme for Hoyt to sell some crappy limbs to everyone so they will have problems with them and have to return them hopefully after warranty is expired and buy new limbs....seriously does that make any sense to anyone? It craps on profits...

And this is coming from a guy who had to warranty replace a set of limbs himself...It sucked, really it did...I don't own another good set of limbs to continue shooting with while I had to replace those (my others were a different poundage arrows wouldn't tune for crap), and it was in the middle of indoor season...I was pissed too...but honestly Hoyt took care of me, sent my new limbs and that was that...even allowed me to change poundage without charging me...it took a while, which for a guy who live in the age of instant gratification was tough...and I am willing to bet that if these new ones break, Hoyt will take care of me again. If they don't take care of their products and the defective ones (regardless of a lame ass 1 year warranty), then they loose money and face in the long run...and trust me that is the last thing they want to do as a business.

btw JM if you run into anyone wanting to get rid of their 900's let me know...I'll buy em. ;-)


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

SA...i really hope you're right about the hoyt warrantee cuz i have 3 guys here right now who want to do that but because of the hassle and distance from the philippines they are still weighing their options...needless to say they are now afraid to even use their limbs..

fortunately for them they have win&win back-up limbs but they're really disappointed with all the developments on the 900s as they just got these recently..

i will let u know if they're willing to sell them to you...what length and wt are you looking for?


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## adnoh (Apr 4, 2008)

*Class Action?*

If the manufacturer won't credit toward another set and people are afraid to shoot them because of the photos and stories posted regarding the limbs, can a class action be filed before someone gets hurt?


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

adnoh said:


> If the manufacturer won't credit toward another set and people are afraid to shoot them because of the photos and stories posted regarding the limbs, can a class action be filed before someone gets hurt?


Please put thing in perspective here. Hoyt is the leading manufacturer and if you make a lot of limbs some of them are going to break. But 'some' of 'a lot' is more then 'a bit' of 'second manufacturer'. All limb breakage that I have seen have been with high poundage and/or long draw length. I haven't seen a #28 to #38 hoyt limb break yet. I did however see a #22 break - not that strange if you draw 30"+ and have 66" bow.


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

VinZ said:


> Hoyt is the leading manufacturer and if you make a lot of limbs some of them are going to break. But 'some' of 'a lot' is more then 'a bit' of 'second manufacturer'.


This is nonsense. Here in HK far more archers are shooting Korean limbs than Hoyt, about 2/3 shoot Korean bows. I know only 3 decent ranked amateur archers(we don't have any pro here) shoot 900CX, all 3 limbs are broken, that's about 100% failure. Those archers pull around 40lbs 28" draw, nothing extreme. W&W is most popular here, I know 5 decent archer shoot the INNO, including myself, only 1 set is broken after warranty expired. Why keep on protecting a company's fault, bad design is bad design, they should recall all 900CX limbs, replace them with brand new 990TX or money back.
ps. around 30lbs, even those 60USD glassfiber limbs never breaks, we are talking about 40lbs+ user experience, that is the 900CX made for.
jx


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Why keep on protecting a company's fault


I've often asked that very question. I've seen the brand loyalty go beyond logic many, many times. Kind of a "ford vs. chevy" thing. No reason behind it other than foolish pride. 

Nobody likes to admit that they wasted money on an overpriced piece of equipment with real fancy graphics... Makes them look foolish.

John.


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## adnoh (Apr 4, 2008)

lorteti said:


> This is nonsense. Here in HK far more archers are shooting Korean limbs than Hoyt, about 2/3 shoot Korean bows. I know only 3 decent ranked amateur archers(we don't have any pro here) shoot 900CX, all 3 limbs are broken, that's about 100% failure. Those archers pull around 40lbs 28" draw, nothing extreme. W&W is most popular here, I know 5 decent archer shoot the INNO, including myself, only 1 set is broken after warranty expired. Why keep on protecting a company's fault, bad design is bad design, they should recall all 900CX limbs, replace them with brand new 990TX or money back.
> ps. around 30lbs, even those 60USD glassfiber limbs never breaks, we are talking about 40lbs+ user experience, that is the 900CX made for.
> jx


I agree, they should recall the 900s and give them full credit to upgrade. Customers who bought the 900s won't be able to sell them because of their the reviews they are receiving. I own a pair and will never buy another set of their limbs again. That is specifically the reason I wouldn't consider their new bow since the only limbs you can use are theirs. If they won't recall the 900s why should I buy a bow that can only use their limbs? I'm stuck with a set of 900s that may or may not be defective and probably won't be able to sell them. Is that the kind of equipment I want to buy?


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Resale value is huge. I base a lot of my buying decisions on this.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

after all these the naming of the 900CX could be 900 Could eXplode.....let's hope the 990TX don't lead to 990 Tragically eXpire....


PS..i have to admit i am not the original author of this piece of literary genius--it was sent to me in a PM!!---and of course i have permission from the author to put it here!!..


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

anyone afraid to shoot their limbs or wanting to sell their 900's let me know I am out to buy some 42# MED or 44# Longs....I ain't skeered....shoot my set every day.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ScarletArrows said:


> anyone afraid to shoot their limbs or wanting to sell their 900's let me know I am out to buy some 42# MED or 44# Longs....I ain't skeered....shoot my set every day.




http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1055943435#post1055943435


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

thanks Jim already noticed them.


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## adnoh (Apr 4, 2008)

*Resale is an important factor*



mholz said:


> Resale value is huge. I base a lot of my buying decisions on this.


I agree. Since they won't offer to a recall on the 900s and credit toward new limbs I won't be looking to purchase anymore of their limbs. I guess that excludes their new bow with proprietary limbs. Too bad, it looked interesting. I I figure I'm stuck with a pair of 900s that I would have to sell under market value. Why would I buy a bow that can only use their limbs? It's a chance I as a buyer don't want to take.


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

lorteti said:


> This is nonsense. Here in HK far more archers are shooting Korean limbs than Hoyt, about 2/3 shoot Korean bows. I know only 3 decent ranked amateur archers(we don't have any pro here) shoot 900CX, all 3 limbs are broken, that's about 100% failure. Those archers pull around 40lbs 28" draw, nothing extreme. W&W is most popular here, I know 5 decent archer shoot the INNO, including myself, only 1 set is broken after warranty expired. Why keep on protecting a company's fault, bad design is bad design, they should recall all 900CX limbs, replace them with brand new 990TX or money back.
> jx


Here in Europe it's almost only Hoyt and from what I see on international tournaments the 'rival' archers outside Europe mostly bring along a Hoyt bow. 
I do agree that W&W does a much better job with there limbs. Even better: they take responsibility. When they did a recall of the XQ-1 limb years back that showed me W&W is committed to making a better product. 


> ps. around 30lbs, even those 60USD glassfiber limbs never breaks, we are talking about 40lbs+ user experience, that is the 900CX made for.


I have seen cheap limbs break at any poundage (18 to 32). As a rule of thumb you are correct and want to add some information. 
I was talking about the pounds marked on the limbs, not what is on the fingers. Last year's research showed that we (the Dutch) are the tallest people in the world. A draw length of 30" to 31" is common an will give you around #40 to #42 with #36 limbs. At these draw length any limb will have a hard time. Breakage does occur but because there are very few W&W users at 40+ weight on there fingers I have to rely on pro-shops info and I deem this information slightly tainted. What I have heard is that Victor Ruban switched to Hoyt because he had 2 limbs break at the 2008 Olympics (I would like to have this confirmed).


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## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

At extreme conditions, every type of limbs can break. But when it breaks on perfect normal situations, that is scary. Would you buy a car that there wheels flies off while driving 60mph? not me.
And I add this, I don't hate the brand Hoyt. They make good stuffs too, the Matrix, Nexus and the GMX are good looking risers, and works well. And I haven't heard any 990TX breakage report yet, a friends of mine shoot it almost a year, still working.
Last night I was watching archery.tv team match at Ulsan. One slow-motion shot of the 900CX is really scary. Check this slow-motion shot out at exactly 12:00 min. of the video. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH6cvdKeZ58
jx



VinZ said:


> What I have heard is that Victor Ruban switched to Hoyt because he had 2 limbs break at the 2008 Olympics (I would like to have this confirmed).


Where did you heard that? From Hoyt people I guess? I can believe that he maybe want a different pair of W&W limbs because he don't like the feel or any small imperfect issues, at his level he can be a little bit more skeptical. Two limbs breaking at a single event is too hard to believe. Well he win the gold medal.


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## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

VinZ said:


> What I have heard is that Victor Ruban switched to Hoyt because he had 2 limbs break at the 2008 Olympics (I would like to have this confirmed).


The Inno's don't use to break (in fact, I didn't anything about any inno broken) and two in a row, is almost imposible to believe.


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

I don't buy it about Ruban going to Hoyt due to limb failure. He was still shooting his blue W&W Innos with Inno Power limbs later in 2008 so if he did change, it wasn't immediately following Beijing. If he's now shooting Hoyt, he likely has been offered a sponsorship and accepted, good for him and good for Hoyt if they landed him. 

There are plenty of things that bug me about W&W but limb failure on Inno Power limbs isn't one of them. It sounds like an unfounded rumor.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If he's now shooting Hoyt, he likely has been offered a sponsorship and accepted


Top shooters shoot what they do because they are all making a living from the sport. Period. To them, it's as much a business as it is anything. 

That sounds like a business decision to me.

John.


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## richardfrog (Jan 24, 2009)

People just have bad manner, denying what other people believe and all, plus, without reasonable argument. If you like hoyt buy hoyt, like win, buy win. Archery is a sport and sport is about the athelete who shoots, not the bow that is used. I but what opportunity presents, and the Hoyt 42# 900, in this threat is over pirced, any used limb should be under $350. A samcik extreme was should for 250, on ebay.


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm certainly not bashing Hoyt. I love my Hoyt vectrix, it's built like a tank, and survived a dry fire when it was 2 years old, with only a bit of string stretch. It's a solid bow, and I've seen so many drenalins and dxts come apart with 1 dry fire. I realize you shouldn't dry fire a bow, but it happens. The shop manager where I shoot, a big mathews fan, will even concede that hoyt compounds are some of the best built bows out there. 

But as I eluded to earlier, and John rightly caught on...the first 23 to 27 inches are typically top notch. I don't even recall a modern rumor about a Hoyt recurve riser having QC issues. But every one of us has heard them about their recurve limbs persistently over the years. Right or wrong, word of mouth (or Internet forum) matters. And a company honoring their warranties isn't doing anything special. They're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Personally, I prefer to not ever have to rely on a warranty if at all possble. So I'll do what I feel minimizes my chances of having to deal with that. I'll buy where the rumors are good, or where my first hand experiences lead me. Hoyt lost me in 1995, and so far hasn't given me a reason to go back.


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## crownimperial (Jan 26, 2009)

richardfrog said:


> People just have bad manner, denying what other people believe and all, plus, without reasonable argument. If you like hoyt buy hoyt, like win, buy win. Archery is a sport and sport is about the athelete who shoots, not the bow that is used. I but what opportunity presents, and the Hoyt 42# 900, in this threat is over pirced, any used limb should be under $350. A samcik extreme was should for 250, on ebay.


If they were a well used pair with chips and scratches, then yes I would have to agree with you 300-350 sounds fair. But when they are an almost immaculate pair of top end limbs that were only lightly shot for 1 week and absolutely nothing wrong with them (only being sold because of my lack of ability to hold the weight), then I am sorry but I must disagree with you. I paid over $550 big ones for them new, and asking the price I am im already loosing well over $100 on the initial investment. Awhile back when new limbs were in the $400 dollar range id also have to agree with you on that, but as the price of new limbs go up so does the price of used ones. This year Hoyts new limbs are going to be selling for over $650 dollars so for a well treated used pair of those model limbs don’t be surprised seeing people asking for $500-$550 range. I am sorry you feel I overpriced them, I feel what I am asking is very reasonable and actually a pretty good deal. But i thank you very much for your opinion.

BEST Regards and happy shooting!

Eddie


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i agree 100% with you eddie but unfortunately the reality is that the moment a readily available consumer item leaves the showroom it normally loses 20-30% of its brand new price depending on the item....


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Nobody likes to admit that they wasted money on an overpriced piece of equipment with real fancy graphics... Makes them look foolish.
> 
> John.


Crap. I own two pair. Does that make me doubly foolish?

Just to add a few notes, one of our pairs was twisted. We sent them back, got them back a month later and they were the SAME pair. We sent them back again and the latest pair seems to be fine....

*crosses fingers*


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, if you didn't admit it... 

Sorry, but limbs priced like that should also take out the trash and do dishes for you too. Much less be right the first time.

Hoyt is completely off it's collective rocker if it thinks they can charge that kind of money for limbs that don't do anything a $300 pair does, and then have the owners wondering if they will fail at some point. And then again make the owners wonder if their failed limbs will be replaced...

I honestly don't know why people put up with such nonsense. There ARE better options.



> But when they are an almost immaculate pair of top end limbs that were only lightly shot for 1 week and absolutely nothing wrong with them (only being sold because of my lack of ability to hold the weight), then I am sorry but I must disagree with you. I paid over $550 big ones for them new,


Sorry, but for $200/pair, I got world class carbon SKY limbs that do everything (and even stay together) that any other limb can do. And they proved it in competition several times. In fact, older limbs than mine are still proving it over and over again...

If you looked at the age of Vic's or some of Butch's limbs vs. the number of competitions won, the ratio of years:wins would be almost unfathomable in the mind of certain  engineers...

As a high profile TV trainer used to say... "STOP THE INSANITY!" 

Why anyone would gladly plunk down more than $500 on a single pair of recurve limbs is totally beyond me. 

In 2006, I sent a student of mine to the Jr. world championships (only American recurve archer to make the medal rounds by the way) with an OLD set of C+ limbs and an EVEN OLDER set of wood core C+ limbs as a backup. And he and I both agreed that the wood core limbs were faster... Those limbs were at least 20+ years old at the time. Indeed, he set the double-70 meter U.S. record with those old primary limbs on his way to a national championship - a Cadet record that may not be beat in my lifetime. 

So, I'm sorry if all this spending looks like the recurve "COLD WAR" to me sometimes... 

John.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Well, if you didn't admit it...


Ack! foiled again!



> Sorry, but limbs priced like that should also take out the trash and do dishes for you too. Much less be right the first time.


I could get onboard with some of that



> I honestly don't know why people put up with such nonsense. There ARE better options.
> 
> Why anyone would gladly plunk down more than $500 on a single pair of recurve limbs is totally beyond me.


inexperience and marketing hype is why I ended up with them. Oh and the dealer misread his prices and I got them for much less than HIS cost so the price was manageable 

-Andrew


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Oh and the dealer misread his prices and I got them for much less than HIS cost so the price was manageable


Sweet!

Er, Uhm, I mean, I hate it when that happens... :embara: ha, ha.

John.


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Sorry, but for $200/pair, I got world class carbon SKY limbs that do everything (and even stay together) that any other limb can do. And they proved it in competition several times. In fact, older limbs than mine are still proving it over and over again...


Unfortunately those are getting hard to come by. Lots got deals on them when they were available but no one is selling. I've been looking for some 40-42# Medium Sky carbons for a year and haven't found any.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jason, I sold some just like that a few weeks ago. You gotta post up man!

You can still find them pretty cheap. And remember, the old PSE Carbon Centras are the same limb as the SKY Jack carbons, so don't overlook those...

I guess my favorite used limb is still the old GM Carbon Plus in either the foam or wood cores. Those shot great, were super smooth and held together well. And, yes, they still shoot as well as anything out there...

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i just got some 36# sky conquest carbons short limbs for $175...they are in very good condition and i intended to originally use them only on my warfs(pulling 44#) but may now try them also on my x-factors and maybe even the elan for fita target......

John's right....you gotta post and you may get lucky!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

mfriedma said:


> Just had a top limb tip explosively delaminate during a shot. There was quite a lot of noise and clutter. When the debris cloud cleared the limbs were on the ground, string hanging from the riser, arrow at my feet, and I was very puzzled. Kind of Charlie Brown like after a field goal attempt. Hoyt is closed for the weekend. Has anyone had to deal with Hoyt in such matters? I had purchased these second hand for a pretty reasonable price, but not to just have them self destruct. Would using only a 14 strand d97 string with tied on nock point contribute in any way? These were 38# medium length limbs on a 25" hoyt nexus riser. 9 1/8" brace height. Limb bolts about middle of their adjustment, 27 1/2" draw. I'm sure they will blame me for some kind of mistreatment. Guess I will find out this week when I get a chance to call.
> 
> Mark



Were you able to get a satisfactory resolution from Hoyt? Could you share your experience?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

crownimperial said:


> If they were a well used pair with chips and scratches, then yes I would have to agree with you 300-350 sounds fair. But when they are an almost immaculate pair of top end limbs that were only lightly shot for 1 week and absolutely nothing wrong with them (only being sold because of my lack of ability to hold the weight), then I am sorry but I must disagree with you. I paid over $550 big ones for them new, and asking the price I am im already loosing well over $100 on the initial investment. Awhile back when new limbs were in the $400 dollar range id also have to agree with you on that, but as the price of new limbs go up so does the price of used ones. This year Hoyts new limbs are going to be selling for over $650 dollars so for a well treated used pair of those model limbs don’t be surprised seeing people asking for $500-$550 range. I am sorry you feel I overpriced them, I feel what I am asking is very reasonable and actually a pretty good deal. But i thank you very much for your opinion.
> 
> BEST Regards and happy shooting!
> 
> Eddie


Well, for those of us who did pay top dollar for these limbs, the reality of a short lived production run is smacking us in the face. It would be easier to take if technology were passing by the 900cx. That is not the case. 

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=900cx


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

for those who can't get to the link, lancaster has just discounted the 900cx limbs from $549.99 to $399.99....


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

Borja1300 said:


> The Inno's don't use to break (in fact, I didn't anything about any inno broken) and two in a row, is almost impossible to believe.


(sorry for my late reply)
I found it highly unlikely. That's why I wanted it confirmed (or unconfirmed). Everybody here thinks the same as me. Not worth going into anymore.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> lancaster has just discounted the 900cx limbs from $549.99 to $399.99....


And welcome to the world of Hoyt... 

Business and marketing extraordinaire... Not sure why so many people fall for it, honestly...

Guess hype is more imporatant than reality these days... Sure seems to be that way anyway.

John.


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> And welcome to the world of Hoyt...
> 
> Business and marketing extraordinaire... Not sure why so many people fall for it, honestly...
> 
> ...


I agree that the marketing statements are getting silly. It makes it so much harder to pick out and believe the useful bits of info among all the spin.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Acehero said:


> I agree that the marketing statements are getting silly. It makes it so much harder to pick out and believe the useful bits of info among all the spin.


......that is why in addition to a lot of research i normally rely on actual first hand experience from archers i know and respect before i will consider purchasing any of these new offerings to replace what i currently use...

of course if it is something totally new and i think i will like it and can afford it...i will just go ahead and get it....and hope for the best!!


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

spin is easy to find in Hoyt literature...just look for 'buzz' words. (part of the whole reason that I don't buy into the new Formula riser...nothing but buzz)
Trust specs...well except for IBO ratings but thats a whole nother story. And you can just go ahead and assume that if its a compound from them its gonna be a pretty good bow.

As for recurve limbs has anyone had any problems with any other limb prior to the 900cx?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

S.A.,

The only limbs I've ever seen fail at tournaments have been Hoyts. And I'm not being biased here, it's just a fact. The G3's were notorious for failing. They had some SERIOUS problems when they first came out. And I for one was not impressed whatsoever with Butch's G3's in Athens. Every morning during practice, he had to "shoot them in" before he would hit gold. I saw this over and over again. His arrows would start out high right in the 6/7 ring, and after about 15 arrows, they were in the gold. He would never touch his sight. This is something he pointed out to me, so I knew it was factual. Not long after that, you never saw him shoot the G3's again... He went back to his old FX limbs and them some wood core Carbon Plus limbs while things got sorted out... I may not have that sequence exactly right, but that's what I saw firsthand...

I've watched several young archers go bug-eyed in dismay as their shiny, graphic-laden Hoyt limbs seperated at JOAD nationals, US Nationals and training camps. 

Unacceptable IMO, esp. when all their outrageous claims and hype try to make everyone believe that nobody else in the world knows how to make a good recurve bow... ukey:

Again, best aluminum risers in the world IMO, but limbs? give me a break...

John.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Fact is*

geez guys trying to beat up on Hoyt here I think... the words or letters r&d mean anything... the second being the most important.. development..... Seems other company's have done the same ford and gm the new Thunderbird for only a few yrs was a flop and a warranty nightmare.. and a couple of gm cross over trucks as well.. this is the way of the future.. anybody with a outdated blackberry or cell phone after only one year... Remember no one forced you to buy their product.. but something must of sparked some interest...seems that Hoyt has come through on replacements for the people that have been really affected with their product..


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> geez guys trying to beat up on Hoyt here I think... the words or letters r&d mean anything... the second being the most important.. development..... Seems other company's have done the same ford and gm the new Thunderbird for only a few yrs was a flop and a warranty nightmare.. and a couple of gm cross over trucks as well.. this is the way of the future.. anybody with a outdated blackberry or cell phone after only one year... Remember no one forced you to buy their product.. but something must of sparked some interest...seems that Hoyt has come through on replacements for the people that have been really affected with their product..


Seems to me that if you want to stick up for Hoyt that perhaps you don't want to hold GM up as an example. 
Would Hoyt = GM and Win & Win = Toyota?


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

Well on the other foot...How many sets of Hoyt limbs are out there? I mean at the shop I see more broken Matthews compounds than any other bow...BUT there are a ton of them out there. It serves to believe that with them being the majority of limbs avalible then you will see more breakage. 

Honestly the last shoot I was at the majority of shooters had hoyts risers with hoyt limbs. only 3-4 of 15-20 people shooting recurve had something other than Hoyt that I can remember. I saw a tent slam (due to wind and being unrestrainted) into two Hoyt bows and the limbs on one of them popped completely out of the riser...but didn't break (btw 900cx's)...the other took the impact like a tank.

Don't get me wrong I had a set break myself...I too agree its unacceptable to have broken limbs for no apparent reason. My argument personally doesn't lie in this area...my point is that I have seen hoyt stand behind those broken limbs and get replacements out to individuals who had them break.

Things built by flawed human beings will be flawed...to expect perfection is to be disappointed everytime. 

with Butch's limbs...interesting to know that though cause I would have looked at my form first then string second in that situation, my limbs would have been the last of my thoughts considering it "settled"

And If I owned a company that made recurves, damn right I would try to convince everyone on earth that no one else knows how to make a good recurve...thats business...just as it is to stand behind those limbs that break.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*could be*

Yes toyota just had one of their largest recalls ever on some models of their autos some thing in the 2-3 hundred thousand vehicles see no ones perfect...


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*I agree*

I don`t think it was the limbs that settled in as much as the shooter and we all know that is why we have warm up before each tournament.. its not a cold turkey start ...


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Yes toyota just had one of their largest recalls ever on some models of their autos some thing in the 2-3 hundred thousand vehicles see no ones perfect...


........has hoyt ever recalled any of it's products?....or even admitted there was a manufacturing or design effect?.......

IMO the best way to have credibility is to stand 100% behind your product-ie-vortex optics has a transferrable unconditional lifetime warranty on its products--nikon has a similar warranty--borders will replace ANY of their limbs within reason(they also have a 30-day free trial period)....

the above examples are only a few that i know of--am sure there are many more out there-- and i have multiple products of all three and sleep well at night knowing they stand behind them...i will continue to buy their products in the future without hesitation if i think i need or want them and if affordable... 

show me a company that will do that 100% and it will always be on my list whenever i make any purchase......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I don`t think it was the limbs that settled in as much as the shooter


LOL! that's rich.

Sorry, but when someone like Butch speaks, you'd better be listening. And he'll only say it once.

John.


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## Jacob Wukie (Dec 18, 2004)

What company has made more attempts at improvement than Hoyt?


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## skybowman (Jan 31, 2004)

How do you measure that?

Look, I've got no dog in this hunt as I've shot many manufacturers' products and each company has its good and bad points. 

However, I've noticed on this and other boards that whenever anyone cites issues with a product, the defenders come to the manufacturer's rescue and then the discussion degenerates into a back and forth.

Bottom line...if a manufacturer's product has problems, there's nothing wrong with sharing those experiences on a board like this. That doesn't mean all of their products are bad or that they don't do R&D or that the complaints are baseless either.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Jacob Wukie said:


> What company has made more attempts at improvement than Hoyt?


......for compound hoyt is probably right up there with matthews and pse...the compound market however is very competitive as they really expect something new every year....

recurve however is a bit different as the equipment cycle seem to be much longer-ie-hoyt's gold medalist riser was in production for more than 20 years!!

improvements wise i would vote for win&win for risers and limbs and borders for limbs only....and i am not referring to cosmetic improvements but real verifiable performance improvements..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> What company has made more attempts at improvement than Hoyt?


From where I sit, it looks like W&W is leading that race...

They left machined alum. long ago and even their machined alum. risers were every bit as good as Hoyt's 10+ years ago... Now they are paving the way with carbon and carbon/alum., including forward bridges with integral tuning. They took the same kind of "risk" on their arc-shaped Synerzy limbs, and when those failed, they made good on those by replacing them and designing a new Synerzy limb that didn't fail. 

Their WinEx limb and honeycomb cores were more state of the art advancements that were ahead of the others. 

I agree that this is a bold move, but please.

And FWIW, I'm currently shooting Hoyt risers (Axis) and Samick Limbs (Masters). 

Marketing and sponsorships (which are simply marketing tools, in case the sponsored archers haven't figured that out yet) have held back progress and hurt the sport IMO...

Damn hard to find the truth anymore with all the spin... Just like politics and Nascar

John.


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## John K (Dec 13, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Their WinEx limb and honeycomb cores were more state of the art advancements that were ahead of the others.


The first generation of WinEx limbs did suffer from problems. A good friend of mine had a pair when they first came out, which delaminated within months. When the dealer refused to help him he sent them to W&W, who replaced them. All well and good.

However, the interesting thing is that the new limbs had a slightly different profile and required a different length string. It transpired that W&W had backed off the recurve on the tips a little.

The Winex is a bloody good limb, don't get me wrong. However, I have a few pictures (on my other PC) of a W&W medium limb with a medium Border trad limb of the same length made in the 90s. Other than the tip area, the limbs are spookily similar


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jacob Wukie said:


> What company has made more attempts at improvement than Hoyt?


Well... could name all of them.

heck, The G3 has black glass on the belly. There are some Ma and Pa garage bow makers doing just that. 
the Black strip in the G3 close to the nutral axis is carbon. WHY?? the nutral axis has no compression/tension, Waste of mass!!! so make the same limb without the carbon in that silly location and you gain speed. is this the 900cx?

The new riser is the same geom as the GM. the recurve profile is still that of the original earl Hoyt designs from what we can gather. The most radical thing thay have done is play with core tapers (Wooop Wooop) Syntatic foam was inspired in 1970's??? the limb width is the same as before??? so nothing has changed... same old performance too! Sounds like Johnny come lately with torsional stiffness has been quoted on AIUK that Torsional rsistance is not that important!

Name me some great inspriational design features since the Mid 80's that came from Hoyt... True inspriation!!!

how can the Korians come from being a cheapo product, to a premier Leadin mass production limb manufacturer if the rest are not sitting on their lorals?
Sounds like the Innovation is comeing from else where.

*Limbwalker*, i totally agree about the spornsership KILLING innovation, as these marketing toys dont care about the rest, its just a pay check! and as long as they are all in the same boat, nothing really matters.
Can i ask, Have you tried our limbs?


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## Jacob Wukie (Dec 18, 2004)

Borderbows: I've tried a few other limbs (not many), but that wasn't the question. I wasn't arguing in the least that other companies haven't made improvements, or that other companies don't make good limbs. I wasn't stating that hoyt has made more improvements(I don't think my opinion on that is relevent). I will say that I think hoyt has consistently made changes that they genuinely felt would be improvements. Why come down so hard on them for making a change they feel is good and offering it to the public?

On another note, it's simply a lie that all the top archers collaborate and shoot mediocre equipment (knowing there's better equipment out there) just so they can get a check. Not saying they don't make some decisions based on money, but they aren't going to sacrifice performance in making those decisions.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Jacob Wukie;1056038179 I will say that I think hoyt has consistently made changes that they genuinely felt would be improvements. Why come down so hard on them for making a change they feel is good and offering it to the public[/QUOTE said:


> ......please name ONE SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIABLE change that hoyt has made in the area of limb technology in the past----say 10 years----that they claim to be an improvement that NOBODY else has done before them...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jacob Wukie said:


> Borderbows: I've tried a few other limbs (not many), but that wasn't the question. I wasn't arguing in the least that other companies haven't made improvements, or that other companies don't make good limbs. I wasn't stating that hoyt has made more improvements(I don't think my opinion on that is relevent). I will say that I think hoyt has consistently made changes that they genuinely felt would be improvements. Why come down so hard on them for making a change they feel is good and offering it to the public?
> 
> On another note, it's simply a lie that all the top archers collaborate and shoot mediocre equipment (knowing there's better equipment out there) just so they can get a check. Not saying they don't make some decisions based on money, but they aren't going to sacrifice performance in making those decisions.



I agree, they are making improvemnts over there last product,
The G3 from many people was the top limb from Hoyt, BUT many regard the Newer M1 to be the better limb, if not its an equal! So how did the G3 keep its poduim place!

The one thing that sticks in my throat is when a company spokesman states (senior spokeman/recurve engineer) that the Torsional stability is not that important, then advertises it on their next product 990TX, and then on the lastest effort states that the cross weave carbon is present, and that they were the poineers of the concept. ID CHALLENGE THEM, and just like We Challenged the patent on the W&W adverts that they did NOT invent the concept of dedicated torsional stability layer within the limb.... We were making limbs this way for over 11 years, W&W copied this idea from us with the INNO and we all know when that came out. Pioneers of this technology they are Certainly NOT. BUT they are claiming it now. you can read up on this yourself. on the hoyt website

Look up the Inno limb adverts and the current Inno limb video and you will see the patent number that was refused as we contested it. 

We have been pushing Torsional resistance since 1998 in public with the XP10 laminate. 

Sorry if i feel cheated when someone else tries to steal an idea thats already on the market and well documented.

Ill get off my hobby horse when that claim gets dropped!


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## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

> We have been pushing Torsional resistance since 1998 in public


I have a big collection of archery catalogs from Martin, Bear, Hoyt, Browning, and PSE among others, going back to the early 1980's.

Something about this tickled my memory so I went into the old Hoyt catalogs and I found specific reference to "vertical and horizontal limb stability" in the 1996, 94, and 93 catalogs, and a very specific reference to "better torsional and vertical limb stability" in 1987. I also found a 1983 Hoyt TD3 flyer (not a catalog) that refers to "bias carbon for improved torsional stability".

Looks like they were at least a few years ahead of you.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Shinigami3 said:


> I have a big collection of archery catalogs from Martin, Bear, Hoyt, Browning, and PSE among others, going back to the early 1980's.
> 
> Something about this tickled my memory so I went into the old Hoyt catalogs and I found specific reference to "vertical and horizontal limb stability" in the 1996, 94, and 93 catalogs, and a very specific reference to "better torsional and vertical limb stability" in 1987. I also found a 1983 Hoyt TD3 flyer (not a catalog) that refers to "bias carbon for improved torsional stability".
> 
> Looks like they were at least a few years ahead of you.


i did say a dedicated torsional resistant layer! the XP10 layer added some 70% more stiffness to lateral loads over a conventional limb. not 5-10%

using width or depth is nothing new... Trad bow makers made from one peice of wood knew that trick.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

oh sorry for the second post here, but once they had a improved limb with better torsional resistance, in 1996, what happened to the FX? did they decide to abandon it? Or did they have no control over it as they persued speed with the FX.

Please note we had a limb that was faster than the FX and more stable by a considerable margin out at the same time as the FX.
That was independentenly tested and published.

The basic way to improve torsional reisitance is a wider, thicker limb or have less recurve. Less recurve = longbow/hybrid bow...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Shinigami3 said:


> I"bias carbon for improved torsional stability".


Biased in which direction it be glad to see.
For example, our Border Vision limb has the biased carbon and predates the 1998 idea.
The XP10 idea is something different.
Biased carbon only means it runs in more than one direction. The Inno had it running 45deg and not 90deg.
there is a surprising stiffening effect to 45deg double angled carbon to coin a W&W phrase but 90 deg does very little.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> On another note, it's simply a lie that all the top archers collaborate and shoot mediocre equipment (knowing there's better equipment out there) just so they can get a check.


Yes, that would be a lie. And a conspiracy too! 

Good thing nobody said that.

Sid, no, I've not had the pleasure of shooting Border limbs. But I've never heard anything but good about them...

And you've managed to stir the Hoyt loyalists, so duck! ha, ha 

I wonder how far bais has to go before it becomes a lie? 

Loyalty is a fine trait. Blind loyalty is a fault however...

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

no official statements from hoyt yet considering all the negative publicity they are getting from this thread??........

it appears they can't come up with ANY SATISFACTORY statements and are just choosing to ignore??... and are probably hoping to give the impression that the opinions in this forum are inconsequential....

...shows a lot about a company's willingness to stand behind their products....


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## Archerycat (Mar 1, 2007)

bobs1303 said:


> I think it may depend on how old the limbs are if Hoyt warranties them, they only cover the limbs for a year on recurves which I think is garbage since they will warrants the compounds for life for the original owner.
> Your string should have nothing to do with the limb failing you're not even drawing it back to 28in.
> I think it will come down to the customer serves agent you get. Wish you luck on this


I had a problem last year with Hoyt not wanting to replace the limbs. I had two sets completly break down.
My husband and I took them to Hoyt booth in Vegas and cornered someone.

They ended up replacing them, but I don't think I should have had to strong arm them in Vegas into fixing the problem.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*att archery cat*

can we ask how old where the limbs 2-3 yrs old or more.. if so then hoyt gave good to great service... correct... try getting a new engine for your car after the 3 yr warranty or 100 k pretty well impossible unless you put some energy into it...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and are probably hoping to give the impression that the opinions in this forum are inconsequential....


JMV, you may not realize how true that is ... 

In terms of "consequential", I wouldn't be too worried about what's said here if I were a Hoyt exec...

The brand has built so much momentum by now, and so many loyal followers, that it really wouldn't matter what was said. And folks who have a bad experience with a Hoyt product will be reasoned away by the Hoyt faithful. It would HAVE to be their problem, as it certainly couldn't be Hoyt Almighty's! LOL! 

Unfortunately, Hoyt and Mathews assumed the old "Ford vs. Chevy" argument and side-taking nonsense years ago. In that environment, facts be damned...

The sad part is they both make some fantastic equipment. But the marketing guru's have achieved their goal, and polarized the masses to a great extent. Brand loyalty at its finest. It's what keeps folks coming back even when there is a better choice, or even when they had an unacceptable result...

We humans are weird that way sometimes...

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i hear you John...

...can't help but feeling something's wrong with all that....luckily there are so many other better options in recurve stuff out there!!...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well I wouldn't necessarily say "better" (at least as far as the risers are concerned) but perhaps "just as good", and that's all you need anyway. For limbs, yes, I definitely think there are better options. Maybe their new ones will be the cat's meow though. Who knows?

Fact is that the top risers and limbs from all the major manufacturers have been so close in quality and performance for so long that it simply comes down to:

1) personal preference (feel, sound, looks)
2) brand loyalty, 

or 3) opportunity for sponsorship (for qualified, recognized archers).

And since there is no significant difference, the first two can be very easily overlooked by some folks, given a good #3...  So I think that's a lot of what you see with the well known shooters. It's not a matter of being dishonest, but rather a matter of knowing where their bread is buttered and choosing to use that company's gear to honor a contract or protect the chance of getting more gear in the future...

It's kinda like shopping for homes in a glut market. When there are a lot of comparable homes for sale in the neighborhood you want to live in, then it comes down to aesthetics, builder reputation and "value added" accessories. 

John.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

on 2nd thought..you're right about hoyt risers...after all i had 6 of them--still have one(two if you count my TD3 warf)--before i switched to the x-factors(mostly due to your review if you recall....).....PS..kinda slipped my mind that this thread is about their limbs in the first place!!....he he he!!!


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

If you want a response from Hoyt you should call them rather than posting on a forum. That's the equivalent of a dealer selling you a bad car so you go stand in the middle of a shopping mall to tell everyone how you were wronged. You might feel better, but it's pretty ineffective.

As for the 900cx's, it's too bad there have been some burned by them. I've seen them perform extremely well in the right hands, though durability and performance are 2 different things. I did notice that Butch stuck to them rather than the newer TX's in Vegas. Surely he could have upgraded if he wanted to. He did have the GMX riser but stuck to his CX's.

I'm not defending Hoyt, I'm criticizing the approach of going straight to publicly bashing a company rather than straight to them. If they don't make it right, then by all means, fire away! Others need to know about it.

EVERY company that has been around long enough has made a lemon or three, it's how they deal with it and move forward that matters. Sometimes you need to find the right person at a company or the right dealer to help, that's a reality you face with any warranty situation.

Recurves can so easily be damaged by improper stringing that it stands to reason that a company could have a restrictive warranty, but I would be very surprised if Hoyt would not replace something a little out of warranty that showed manufacturing defects. 

But much of the bashing on here sounds personal, whiny and ineffective if you want action. But most people don't want results in life, they prefer justification to whine.

I would be LIVID if I bought $600 limbs and they delaminated. But I would take it up with the company FIRST, then if they didn't make it right, I would let people know and it would definitely influence my future purchasing decisions.


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## mfriedma (Sep 28, 2009)

*Update: No News*

I haven't had anything news worthy to report so I haven't posted. I am still waiting. Hoyt is difficult to deal with directly and only want to communicate with an authorized dealer. The dealer I found in my area is not the most communicative unfortunately. He claims that they are going to send new limbs. I went by the shop last Friday, two weeks after dropping off my limbs. They were still in the box in a pile of other stuff behind the counter. I called Hoyt today and spoke with a customer service rep who said they won't usually just ship new limbs without inspecting the failed pair. Also, he could not look into the file on this claim without the specific permission of the dealer himself, so he could tell me nothing about this transaction. I asked him to contact the dealer so he could look into it, and he all but refused. He wanted me to call the dealer and ask the dealer to call them. Total crap if you ask me. This is not customer service. So I found out absolutely nothing. The dealer I have is just as bad. I gave him an order for a dozen new arrows, just to thank him for the help with this Hoyt issue. When I was there last Friday I inquired about the arrival of the new shafts and he had no idea when they would be in and had no interest in pre-ordering points or fletches. He stocks hunting/compound stuff, but of course no recurve equipment. So basically this sucks and I have no idea. Rather than post more negatives about Hoyt I have just been waiting, hoping to say something good. I think they have good risers and wouldn't hesitate to buy another one as these are unlikely to have problems, but would not purchase another set of limbs unless you have an exemplary dealer. I think this is the crux of it. If you have a knowledgeable, helpful dealer you may get the customer service you need, because Hoyt itself does not provide ANY customer service to the end user.


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## mfriedma (Sep 28, 2009)

*closing the thread*

I am closing this thread due to too much negativeness. I will be sure to post a new thread when there has been some resolution. Hoyt has not refused to help, but it has not been easy. I originally posted because I thought that this event was news worthy and I wanted to see if others had had this problem. I also figured that others would be interested in the outcome. This is the purpose of a forum like this. Mostly I would like a set of limbs again and hope they come through for me. 

Mark


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