# Advantages of Good Limbs?



## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Very easy to see the difference between a cheap limb and a good one by just picking up and (yes) holding the ends and twisting. The good limb will be obviously lighter and extremely difficult to twist. Cheap limb is heavy and very easy to twist.

Hard to define what makes for good limb - easier to determine you have a bad pair of limbs. Saw a recent Beiter video on this topic. Archer setting up to go off to Beijing Olympics with limb problems - impossible to resolve normally. High speed video indicated the dynamic tiller of the limb pair unbelievably crap. Solution - find a better pair (and no they weren't Samick Masters  ).


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Warbow, I think you're on the wrong track in thinking good limbs (or good anything) will give you X number of points or improve scores by some percentage.

A good archer (one who understands the whole shot sequence and through long practice can execute it properly) can shoot a good score with medium quality limbs as well as top quality limbs. I think it's more a matter of consistency and the confidence that brings. I've heard of a number of instances where top named archers shot last years equipment or an old favorite from several years ago instead of the latest and greatest. I think that's because they are confident in that older design's performance and they don't have to think about it as they focus on the real business at hand, making the shot.

I am not an exceptional archer. I buy the best equipment I can so that element of the whole process (riser, limbs, arrows, etc.) is as error free as possible. That leaves me (the archer) as the variable. When I make a bad shot it was me and not my equipment. Likewise, a good shot or a personal best on a given round is me, not my equipment.

My $.02 worth,
Dave


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

Those videos do a great job at educating people about some qualities of limbs. They are informative, but don't forget that it was made by someone with a product to market and sell and we don't necessarily have all of the facts. W&W makes some of the greatest limbs available and I nearly bought some for my last set but believe only half of what you see... less if it comes from a marketing department.

Here are a couple of ways results of those W&W video tests could have been easily skewed or exaggerated. I'm not saying they were, just that we don't know whether they were or not:

1- Use low poundage Hoyt and Masters limbs against higher poundage W&W limbs. 

2 - Use fingers on Hoyt G3's and Samick Masters limbs, then use a release or drop 1-2 fingers when using the W&W limbs.

I attached 2 images of a test written in French years ago that tested lateral stability, speed and other aspects of limbs where Border was the winner over W&W and Hoyt. The pdf was too big so I created images to attach. This was before Winex limbs and I heard (rumor alert!) was the reason W&W started copying Border's limb designs.


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## Greg Bouras (Nov 17, 2006)

In the absence of uniform accurate scientific testing, in my opinion, there is really no objective way to chose between similar construction alternatives. 

Keeping in mind that a recurve bow limb is like any other physical device and having it all from one limb is probably not going to happen anyway.

As far as improving a score; 90% archer and 10% equipment of which the limb is an equipment fraction. 

I have found that for each venue, the equipment that provides the most confidence will result in a more relaxed well executed shot. Those are the arrows that find gold.

Is it worth it to spend several thousand dollars a year on archery equipment? Don’t know and am apt not to pursue that discussion much further, but can say that it is interesting to experience the different personalities of various set-ups.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dave T said:


> Warbow, I think you're on the wrong track in thinking good limbs (or good anything) will give you X number of points or improve scores by some percentage.


Thanks, Dave, but that is not what I'm trying to do. I'm looking for efficient limbs that have a smooth draw, low vibration and perform consistently. It seems that torsional stability will not only help with consistency but also reduce string slap. I want a set of limbs that are fun and satisfying to shoot. Ideally I'd shoot them and compare them myself, but that just isn't possible in my area. I'd be lucky to find a single limb in my draw weight in my area, let alone a specific make and model, and let alone one a dealer will let me take out of the box and try. So, I'm educating myself on the qualities of limbs and what limbs have those qualities, as best I can. I know I won't get a "perfect" limb--such a thing doesn't exists, but, perhaps, I can get better value for my money by choosing wisely.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jason22 said:


> I'm not saying they were, just that we don't know whether they were or not:
> 
> 1- Use low poundage Hoyt and Masters limbs against higher poundage W&W limbs.
> 
> 2 - Use fingers on Hoyt G3's and Samick Masters limbs, then use a release or drop 1-2 fingers when using the W&W limbs.


I doubt that Win and Win would resort to such fudging, but they could well have tested a number of makes and models of competitors limbs until they found the worst case examples and used them for comparison--no fudging needed. But, such speculation wouldn't be necessary if limb makers published FD curve, efficiency and torsional stability info base on industry standard measurements, but I don't know that ATA has any such standards.



Jason22 said:


> I attached 2 images of a test written in French years ago that tested lateral stability, speed and other aspects of limbs where Border was the winner over W&W and Hoyt. The pdf was too big so I created images to attach. This was before Winex limbs and I heard (rumor alert!) was the reason W&W started copying Border's limb designs.


Well, I can't read the french text in the JPEG but the FD curve of the Winact limb seems just as linear as the border and I assume the Winact limb is cheaper than the border.


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

Dave T said:


> Warbow, I think you're on the wrong track in thinking good limbs (or good anything) will give you X number of points or improve scores by some percentage.


2nd this statement. Good limbs and equipment are the ones that you shoot a lot and improve your scores in practice. That ultimately will give you confidence that your equipment is good. 



Dave T said:


> I am not an exceptional archer. I buy the best equipment I can so that element of the whole process (riser, limbs, arrows, etc.) is as error free as possible. That leaves me (the archer) as the variable. When I make a bad shot it was me and not my equipment. Likewise, a good shot or a personal best on a given round is me, not my equipment.
> 
> My $.02 worth,
> Dave


I agree with your statement that there is no harm buying what you can afford because it supports R&D and allows companies like Easton to donate $300k+ to support archers. 

However, regardless of what equipment you buy, it's not always the archer as your equipment can and will change over time (brace height changes, plunger loosens, nock set moves, nock turns on the arrow, etc). I think it's critical to understand your equipment and setup whatever it is because any one of those factors will have more impact on your shot then limb/riser deficiencies. The more experience and confidence you have in your shot will allow you to recognize those details more quickly.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dave T said:


> I am not an exceptional archer. I buy the best equipment I can so that element of the whole process (riser, limbs, arrows, etc.) is as error free as possible. That leaves me (the archer) as the variable. When I make a bad shot it was me and not my equipment. Likewise, a good shot or a personal best on a given round is me, not my equipment.
> 
> My $.02 worth,
> Dave


Therein lies the rub. You think you are buying the best equipment you can, but are you? Granted, at the level of equipment you are buying, the differences between equipment at that price point may be negligible, but it is hard to know when you are flying blind without data. Higher price doesn't necessarily mean better, though in the absence of good data we tend to assume it does (something wine makers take advantage of, for instance.)

I'm shopping in the low to midrange market so I'm trying to learn something rather than just going "enie, meanie, minie, mo" and throwing money at Lancaster and hoping I'm getting good value. Eventually, I'll make a decision and go with it, by why wouldn't I want as many answers ahead of time as I can get?


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

Unfortunately, you just can't go into an archery store and select 5 different limbs and shoot them each for 2 weeks. As you know, were lucky if we get to sample one limb in our draw weight in the SF bay area. So if you are trying to get some good feedback, the only way is to possibly borrow limbs and shoot them for a while... or take the advice of others who have shot or coached many others with similar limbs. Their all pretty good... with the exception of the occassional limbs made on a Monday or Friday.

You keep asking for data. I'll ask you the question, if you had it, how would you use it. If a upper level limb had a 5% improvement in torsional stability would that be worth paying an extra $400. To the top archers it is. So now what if it's 10% or 15% better. Would that make difference of 2-5 points for those bad shots? Hard to tell since no two shots/releases are identical. The question you are asking is when does performance warrant the price. Statistically, it is difficult to determine the significance of a variable (limbs) when there is dominating larger variable (the archer). The role of the riser/limbs is pretty small until the standard deviation of your score tightens up. Look at the difference in a 300 round if you are shooting 240+/-15 points vs 285+/- 4.

Unfortunately, archery is about how your equipment feels to you. What you like can be totally opposite of the person next to you. It's about trial and error not data review.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

omega_archer said:


> You keep asking for data. I'll ask you the question, if you had it, how would you use it. If a upper level limb had a 5% improvement in torsional stability would that be worth paying an extra $400. To the top archers it is. So now what if it's 10% or 15% better. Would that make difference of 2-5 points for those bad shots? Hard to tell since no two shots/releases are identical. The question you are asking is when does performance warrant the price. Statistically, it is difficult to determine the significance of a variable (limbs) when there is dominating larger variable (the archer). The role of the riser/limbs is pretty small until the standard deviation of your score tightens up. Look at the difference in a 300 round if you are shooting 240+/-15 points vs 285+/- 4.


Again, people read things into my posts that aren't there. I don't plan on "picking up points" by getting better limbs. I've been very clear on that point. What I do want is a set of limbs that are efficient, linear FD curve at my DL, low in vibration and high in torsional stability. I think those will be more enjoyable to shoot and will give me some more distance. And more enjoyable means I'll practice more


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## BMG (Aug 1, 2008)

Warbow,
I got what you're asking for. ITs not to add immediate points. I'm still a rookie at all of this and was hoping that more peeps would chime in with helpful knowledge on this thread. I know I could sure use it.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

omega_archer said:


> Unfortunately, you just can't go into an archery store and select 5 different limbs and shoot them each for 2 weeks. As you know, were lucky if we get to sample one limb in our draw weight in the SF bay area. So if you are trying to get some good feedback, the only way is to possibly borrow limbs and shoot them for a while...
> 
> You keep asking for data. I'll ask you the question, if you had it, how would you use it. If a upper level limb had a 5% improvement in torsional stability would that be worth paying an extra $400.


Well, two things I should add...

I have tried out a few limbs at the range, and I found the SF carbon foams felt like they stacked a lot, but, and the two scale measurements seemed to back that up, but I didn't have time to manually map a full FD curve. And I like the old GM carbon plus limbs I tired. But these were limited tests, not the same as borrowing and shooting them for a week, not at all.

As to what I would do with the data? Make a decision matrix, of course  Would 5% extra torsional stability be worth $400 to me? Probably not. But right now the question is "is [no data] worth $400 more?" I'd rather have the data than the blind guess.


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## John K (Dec 13, 2004)

Warbow said:


> Well, I can't read the french text in the JPEG but the FD curve of the Winact limb seems just as linear as the border and I assume the Winact limb is cheaper than the border.


At the time of the article, the Winact was, with the Focus, the flagship limb of W&W while the Border Premier Carbon was the bottom of the range Border wood/carbon limb.

It is easier to compare the data for the different tests if you have a full-size copy of the PDF. Drop me a PM with your email address and I'll send it over.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> There have been several threads here on "best" limbs, with some saying there is no such thing because "best" is strictly subjective, and others who disagreed, saying there are desirable qualities that can be objectively measured.


Ya know I'm totally with you on this one 

The 'best' limb will be subjective for the individual...but data can also be researched to show what are the 'best' limbs for the more competitive target archers or any specific population for that matter and why they are better.

Why some people don't want to admit or acknowledge that equipment choices can effect an archer's score is sometimes beyond me.

Even if it's minimal....so what...the fact of the matter is...equipment choices can effect an archer's score...and limbs can be tested to discover what those differences are that make a better limb.

Competitions can be won or lost by a matter of a few points.



Warbow said:


> But what are good limbs supposed to get you?
> 
> 
> Efficiency - more distance, flatter trajectory, less arrow time in transit subject to wind deflection
> ...


The areas I believe that are primarily responsible for improving an archer's score are:


Efficiency - more distance, flatter trajectory, less arrow time in transit subject to wind deflection
Torsional stability - error tolerance that reduces archer induced errors regarding torque
Consistency - perform the same day to day in different conditions

Smoothness and Vibration reduction have more to do with feel before and after the shot which doesn't necessarily directly relate to error reduction in regards to the time period of the release until the arrow has cleared the riser...but that doesn't mean they aren't important to some archers.

Ray


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

great discussion but not surprising to have varying opinions...i am like Dave T..i buy the best i can afford so that the only variable is me...never my equipment....

....but what is the "best"?....i try to keep it simple....i look at what the top archers are using....i research a bit and i try them out...if i like the way they "feel" (to me) i stay with them....started with hoyt vectors and M1s til i went outdoors and discovered they were not as fast nor as good as the korean limbs...PS..they were stable but slower....

then i went with the samick extremes and the winex which were the top 2 limbs in 2005...i didn't like the "hard" feel of the samicks thru the clicker....sold or traded the samicks and tried the winex and loved the "soft" feel thru the clicker so i stayed with them till i discovered the borders.....

i still keep my winact and pse pro-elite as backup limbs as i am also really impressed with win & win.....i have another pair of borders coming and may try the apecs prime next.....


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Ya know I'm totally with you on this one
> 
> The 'best' limb will be subjective for the individual...but data can also be researched to show what are the 'best' limbs for the more competitive target archers or any specific population for that matter and why they are better.
> 
> ...


Ray, I don't think anyone has said equipment choice doesn't matter at the elite level. It does, as those archers have said just that in previous post. If you are competing for the top spots in a tournament, you do want every advantage you can get mentally and physically. But were talking about "good" limbs for the masses. The point that was made before about these limbs is that they are all very capable of good/great scores. Personal preference is what comes next is my point. It's all about the way it feels when it shoots.

Besides, if there was clear advantage from one limb to another... wouldn't you think that the manufacturers marketing departments would be all over that.


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## Toxothise1440 (Nov 30, 2008)

Warbow said:


> Win & Win has a movie promoting their limbs that explains these advantages. The translation is terrible but, perhaps, better than a slick version. Most interesting to me is the torsional resistance compared to other limbs. I hadn't realized that poor torsional stability can cause (among other things) string slap, and they demonstrate a competitor's high-end limb's poor torsional stability as a motion mapped graph with high speed video.
> 
> http://www.win-archery.com/movie/3s.htm
> 
> ...



The most interesting thing about that video is that it seems to show everything happens after the arrow is gone- and if you look carefully it contradicts itself.

I think very high scores have been shot with very low torsionally stiff limbs. Hoyt FX comes to mind! So it seems to me torsion stiffness is very overrated.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

omega_archer said:


> Ray, I don't think anyone has said equipment choice doesn't matter at the elite level.


I don't think anyone has come right out and said that...but you do hear some people say how it's a waste of time even discussing it...and I say bull.

I find discussions like these...fascinating...but a few people here seem to think that those of us who like to discuss this think we believe there is some kind of magic limb that can turn an average shooter into a top level shooter...which isn't the case...at least as some of us believe.

I do acknowledge there are those people out there who seem to put more emphasis on equipment than skill...which isn't the case for everyone who likes to discuss these topics.



omega_archer said:


> But were talking about "good" limbs for the masses.


Are we? I thought the title to this thread was 'Advantages of good limbs'. I didn't see any mention pertaining specifically to the masses.

Now if that's what we are discussing...than the same limbs that the top level archers like to use will still have advantages over other limbs...it's just that the masses of beginning and intermediate archers will most likely never be able to exploit or realize those advantages due to them still working on developing consistency in their form and execution.



omega_archer said:


> The point that was made before about these limbs is that they are all very capable of good/great scores.


I agree...but the more forgiving a limb is of shooter error...the more points an archer can potentially score when compared to a limb that is less forgiving.

If we were all machines...we would all be capable of shooting perfect scores with selfbows and self arrows...but we're not....and that is where equipment choice can play a roll...even though it's roll is minimal compared to form and technique.



omega_archer said:


> Besides, if there was clear advantage from one limb to another... wouldn't you think that the manufacturers marketing departments would be all over that.


I think they are all over it based on research. There basing it on what top level archers use and what they look for...and than they try to incorporate those into their designs or try to improve upon them. There's a reason why some archery manufactures do intensive research and design into limbs and risers. 

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Toxothise1440 said:


> The most interesting thing about that video is that it seems to show everything happens after the arrow is gone- and if you look carefully it contradicts itself.


The video mentions that the post shot vibration doesn't directly affect the arrow, but they say that it is indicative of the stability during release, much as your follow through is, but the torsional stability is more directly related.


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

Warbow said:


> Again, people read things into my posts that aren't there. I don't plan on "picking up points" by getting better limbs. I've been very clear on that point. What I do want is a set of limbs that are efficient, linear FD curve at my DL, low in vibration and high in torsional stability. I think those will be more enjoyable to shoot and will give me some more distance. And more enjoyable means I'll practice more


Warbow, I wasn't implying that you would be picking up points. What I was implying was even if you knew the value (e.g torsional stability), it would be difficult to tell how much difference each of the numbers would make in the real world. If the test were done by a companies pro archer, the test data would probably show good scores out of both as their form/release is solid. If the testing was done by an average archer, it would probably show that the group would to the same because there is still a lot of variability in form. Would they tell you that or try to sell you the high end limbs? 

Don't get me wrong, I will eventually buy nicer quality limbs at some point and when I do I will evaluate smoothness because that's directly related to my experience executing the shot.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

omega_archer said:


> Don't get me wrong, I will eventually buy nicer quality limbs at some point and when I do I will evaluate smoothness because that's directly related to my experience executing the shot.


I don't want to take away anything from your perspective because what you experience is most likely true for you...but based on my experience...a smoother draw helps the archer set up the shot. A limb that stacks or isn't as smooth as another can often cause an archer to become distracted by thinking about the draw or the feel, which can cause them to loose focus on the more important aspects of form.

45lbs. at anchor will still be 45lbs. at anchor whether the bow is smooth to draw or not.

Ray


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I don't think anyone has come right out and said that...but you do hear some people say how it's a waste of time even discussing it...and I say bull.
> 
> I find discussions like these...fascinating...but a few people here seem to think that those of us who like to discuss this think we believe there is some kind of magic limb that can turn an average shooter into a top level shooter...which isn't the case...at least as some of us believe.
> 
> ...


You know... maybe we aren't, I just assumed that since the whole "best" limb discussion just took place, we moved on to what a "good" as in average mid level limb discussion.

Sure the mfg's all sponsor top archers and get valuable feedback in return. No dispute there. I'm just pointing out that they don't say things like "our limbs are 10% more efficient than the competitors, or highest FPS per DW, etc.


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I don't want to take away anything from your perspective because what you experience is most likely true for you...but based on my experience...a smoother draw helps the archer set up the shot. A limb that stacks or isn't as smooth as another can often cause an archer to become distracted by thinking about the draw or the feel, which can cause them to loose focus on the more important aspects of form.
> 
> 45lbs. at anchor will still be 45lbs. at anchor whether the bow is smooth to draw or not.
> 
> Ray


I think we are saying the same thing aren't we? Smooth draw is good.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

> Efficiency - more distance, flatter trajectory, less arrow time in transit subject to wind deflection
> Torsional stability - error tolerance that reduces archer induced errors regarding torque
> Consistency - perform the same day to day in different conditions


Add:
Vertical Stability - error tolerance that reduces archers induced errors regarding finger placement on string and any other release eror on the vertical plane. 

Combining good Torsional stability and good Vertical stability you will get the so called holy grail of the "forgiveness" of the limbs.

The problem seems to be how to find a way recover the limbs as fast as possible to the theoretical line of travel after the release and keep them on that line until the arrow has left. 
Improved limbs curve improves speed but reduces vertical stability
Improved torsional stiffness on the top of the curve improves torsional stability but makes limbs stacking and slow down them.
Low brace less curve design has more efficiency but slows down arrow and gets again to stcaking.
And I can go on for more and more parameters. You change one of them, the others change, and you are in a new combination of them were only time and extensive testing will tell you if better than the previous one.
This is the reason why there is not such a thing like the perfect limbs, yet.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

omega_archer said:


> I think we are saying the same thing aren't we? Smooth draw is good.


Yes...smooth draw is good...and for some archers it's more important...and for others...it's not as important.

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> Add:
> Vertical Stability - error tolerance that reduces archers induced errors regarding finger placement on string and any other release eror on the vertical plane.
> 
> Combining good Torsional stability and good Vertical stability you will get the so called holy grail of the "forgiveness" of the limbs.
> ...


Totally agree...there is no one best or ultimate limb that performs the best in every category...at least...not that I'm aware of.

In most cases there will always be a certain amount of compromise to achieve a specific characteristic with limb design and it's up to us as archers to discover what characteristics do we feel suit our shooting style and goals best.

Ray


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

I think the real problem is maybe not the availability of data but the fact that we do not have the luxury of having limbs available to try at our local shops. Unless you find people with the right #limbs to borrow for a while you can't try them out extensively. K1 archery has a lease program but I'm not sure of the cost. At least for the lower/mid quality stuff, it might not make economic sense to rent. So the only other choice is to make your best guess selection, buy it and shoot it for a while. If you like it, great, if not sell and move on to option B.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

*RE:Warbow*

In our opinion good limbs get you a % improvemnt in grouping. for example, if your a robot, then you need new nocks and arrows... your groups dont change much, if your loose is erratic then your spread is large, and you could benefit from good limbs most. as its a % of grouping and not the overall score.
Not all top limbs have all these traits, but here goes...
Vertical nocking point stability.
This is measured by the amount of tip movement when the string is pushed up and down inline with the string. This is bad on limbs wound in, VS limbs wound out. Preload is also a problem with this too... it effcts your stored energy. It is the nocking points ability to return to a stable line from a top or bottom release vairation. or bad grip push point. Long bows, 70" and long limbs, help to add to this in a good sence. short bows or long risers dont. high brace heights are also a issue in this arena.
Torsional stability is the bows ability to recover from the source of parradox,
The string will launch side ways, and so will the nock of the arrow, the next source of resistance to this movement if the limbs, the stiffer the limb is to side loads then the less the vairations from good to bad loose will be seen. 20thousands of an inch at brace hight in launch angle is 6-7" at those longer shots.
Extreme torsional resistance not seen in any mass produced limbs also makes a bow more tollerant to spine selection, as the parradox is held more in check.
There are quotes of this being seen by independent archers on another forum. a 2016 shaft with 300grain point from a 57lb bow pulled 29" did not show up with "extreme noodling" showing weak on high speed video.

The next advantage is that with all these benefits you get to hold the speed too... Remeber, that these extras all add mass to a limb, but you also get to hold onto efficency even with that mass of the extra materials and designs...
Even well made wood core limbs made to good tollerances will perform equally from one day to the next in our experince.

Hope that adds to your wish list of your next set of limbs


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> Add:
> 
> Improved limbs curve improves speed but reduces vertical stability
> Improved torsional stiffness on the top of the curve improves torsional stability but makes limbs stacking and slow down them.
> ...


More recurve does not reduce vertical stability. Its the amount of preload that does! More preload adds to the radii near the fade out, this is where vertical instability comes from. SHort limbed bows, high brace hieghts, and winding your limbs in adds to vertical instability. Just try it! 
Low brace height, reduces preload, and reduces the inital bulge in the DFC graph. This does not equal to less speed. as i can explain, it does add to less string tension though.
Low brace height adds to more time for the NP to flatten out and stabilise, also adds to the *length of the power stroke*, which again adds to stored energy. just like longer draws do, but since you dont have the initial bulgeassicaited with high preloads, some of this is taken away. This also adds to a smoother DFC, just in the same way winding your limbs in does the opposit. Low Brace heights also increase the amount of string wrap round the recurve, giving you more recurve action.
I think some of your info is wrong unless ive read your post wrong, which is easy to do over text based conversations.
Torsional resistance does not have anything to do with stack. core profile, limb widths and limb profile all dictate stack.
Thats our findings anyhow... we have been making torsional resitant limbs for some 11-12 years now.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

@Borderbows

Thanks for all of the solid info.

As consumer, I wish that companies published basic industry standard metrics for their ILF limbs, FDC, torsional stability, efficiency and such. Seems that Borderbows would do rather well by such metrics. I realize, though, that such numbers don't necessarily tell the full story, as suggested by your comments about vertical stability, which is a factor I hadn't considered, or heard about, before. It seems to me that large manufacturers would resist giving raw data out because in many cases, the data would favor other companies and the big companies are hoping to win market share by producing high quality limbs, but selling them on the basis of marketing rather than hard numbers.

Also, you seem to be suggesting certain stability advantages to long limbs and short risers? Is that the case? It seems counter intuitive.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Sid, you know we have different opinions about a lot of things in limbs. 
Of course pre-load (high brace) limbs with tips rotated already backward is decreasing vertical stability, it's easy to test, but usually this is even more sensible if you have what I call an improved curve. In a world were many top coaches suggest to keep very hight brace, and the trick is to increase brace up to and when the vertical stability becomes critical, improved curves quite often (you know, I don't see a Border limbs inmy area since at lelast 7 years, so I can't comment for them) give a limited vertical stability range. 
Agree that torsional stability is not very complicated to reach, but for instance stacking becomes very critical if manufacturer makes the curve and the tip a solid not deformable part trying to do it, as many have done.
So, there are no final answers about limbs, as told. 
By the way, I remember sending my pair of 2880 Nishizawa limbs to you for testing in late 1997, and for sure, they were already having an improved curve, a fantastic torsional stability, were very fast and very torsionally and vertically stable. An were terribly expensive..... Since then, design of limbs is never improved so much, apart from the big jump in speed because of the elimination of the external fiberglass faces, and Border 1995 carbon / wood limbs are still a reference in performance for me among limbs still having the fibergalss layers...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

TBH its easy to fudge the numbers to look good...
use a 3 strand string, no nocking points, ect.
and there is no AMO spec for where the chrono sits, in terms of distance from bow for these measurements, so how does efficency become an accurate measurment.

I can also say that one of the draw backs of stating facts, is that if you issue new limbs every year, you can come unstuck. there have been cases where the newest limb is not better than the old, and mearly equal to its older bro, and also cases where the next product down the list is equal in terms of output. so what happens there...

I agree with what your saying, but in the real world, sometimes a design just doesnt come out the way you expected it to. It does all come out in the wash, here on the forums though. The good limbs still get the mentions, while the bad ones dissapear very quikly once the hype has died.

Vittorio.
if we all had the same ideas archery would be dull!
The Inno fits behind without overlap in any area, and slips up beside with an uncanny closeness to our XP10 limb, which was our Black douglas limb profile and shape, the only difference we see is the limb butt. In scotland we have a saying if something fits well, "it fits like a skitter to a stane" a Skitter is what a cow leaves behind, and a stane is a stone. There isnt a closer match than that 
so no wonder that these limbs all have higher brace heights, the suffer the same high brace hieghts and small sweet spots, just like our limbs of that profile did/do. we have had to modify our limbs to accomodate AMO string lengths at the lower brace heights, as this was one of the niggles with the hex5 limbs.
You wont have seen many of our limbs in your circles, our limbs are not seen in good light in pro circles due to ours not comeing with pay packets...
Our hex 4 limb was tested independently as the most efficent limb design by a leading bow tester in the trad field, and what wasnt tested, just like all, bar that french test, no one tests torsional stability. That french magazine test years ago proved that even with torsional stability you could still lead the way in speed too.
I think your comment about deforming tips is the same as my Whippy tip comment too. but torsional resisitace and whippy tip designs are two different topics.
whippy tips are all about too much taper in either width or depth. allowing the tip to flex more and not give the leaverage needed to gain speed (think atlatl throwing spear) the tip basically gives in opening up the string angles and giving you stack.
This is a basic error when building any bow in a means to save outer limb mass.
Torsional resistance is about left right movement and not back/front movements.


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

A quick question - when sizing limbs which of the 3 below would be best. I've heard many different opinions (and have some of my own) but since we're talking about good limbs we should bring up how to correctly size them and why.

Most people draw over 28" so they will be pulling more than the limb rating no matter how you adjust it, but just as an example - which of the following would be best if 42# was desired?

40# with bolts cranked down to reach 42#
42# with bolts set in middle to get 42#
44# with bolts backed off to get 42#


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Borderbows said:


> Thats our findings anyhow... we have been making torsional resitant limbs for some 11-12 years now.


And I have a pair of beautiful limbs that you've made, and will be getting another set when ever I decide to buy some new limbs.:cheers:


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Jason22 said:


> A quick question - when sizing limbs which of the 3 below would be best. I've heard many different opinions (and have some of my own) but since we're talking about good limbs we should bring up how to correctly size them and why.
> 
> Most people draw over 28" so they will be pulling more than the limb rating no matter how you adjust it, but just as an example - which of the following would be best if 42# was desired?
> 
> ...


There is no answer to your question, because everything depends from specific pair of limbs you are considering and riser model. That one, and that one only combination.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jason22 said:


> A quick question - when sizing limbs which of the 3 below would be best. I've heard many different opinions (and have some of my own) but since we're talking about good limbs we should bring up how to correctly size them and why.
> 
> Most people draw over 28" so they will be pulling more than the limb rating no matter how you adjust it, but just as an example - which of the following would be best if 42# was desired?
> 
> ...


unless you have a very unusual set of limbs, then wound in would be fastest.
wound out would give you most stability. (vertically)
This is due to having more preload wound in so the initial lbs per inch drawn gains you good stored energy, and wound out would give you a strighter line of limb at the fadeout, meaning more vertical stability.
There might be some designs out there that somehow mess this rule up, but winding in the limbs stresses them up more, Kinda like 2lbs is about 1" of draw... so more stored energy.


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## omega_archer (Aug 25, 2008)

Borderbows said:


> unless you have a very unusual set of limbs, then wound in would be fastest.
> wound out would give you most stability. (vertically)
> This is due to having more preload wound in so the initial lbs per inch drawn gains you good stored energy, and wound out would give you a strighter line of limb at the fadeout, meaning more vertical stability.
> There might be some designs out there that somehow mess this rule up, but winding in the limbs stresses them up more, Kinda like 2lbs is about 1" of draw... so more stored energy.


Interesting info on limb design. Can you explain or define fade in and out for clarification. Thanks.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

the fadeout is the part of the limb where the limb butt "fades out" into nothing.
Its the transition area from limb butt to limb, non-moving to moving.
Its from there to the tip that is refered to as the "working limb" and not all limbs have the same working limb length


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