# "Spectator shooting"



## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

What is the goal? To look at this thing some folks call "float?" Or to hit the middle? Sounds to me like you've got the latter down pat if that's what your goal is. Keep up the good shooting. :cheers:

It has been my experience that I hit what I look at. :wink:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

It’s extremely beneficial to be able to watch it closely. Once you get the other release set colder you can experiment with the pulling force to see where the dot settles in the best. 

I worked on this last night with my sweet spot, safety on. Then shot 8 of 9 baby Xs at 20 before moving back to 40. I kept all of them in the gold at 40, with probably 75% in the ten ring. I was very pleased with that.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

The goal is to hit the middle, consistently. I can shoot some awesome ends, but have too many rough shots. So my round scores are often lower than I feel I'm capable of. The dot often sits pretty much dead still, only to suddenly make some jumpy movements just before or just as the shot goes off. My draw length is spot on to work a 1/16" and stabiliser weights are as good as I can get them. So am trying to figure out what i am doing to make it jump just as I'm executing.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

fanio, I hear you. Have experienced that same exact thing at times. I didn't come out of it by doing a drill that required me to study sight movement. Here is what I did, it's very simple. Before I ever draw the bow I MUST establish somewhat of an aggressive mindset. In other words, I am not going to get lazy and loaf. With me that is normally the cause of sight movement that occurs just after an extended period of dead stillness, I just wasn't prepared to shoot the shot! I was just enjoying the view. 

When I find myself falling slowly into that habit I will often say to myself (sometimes out loud,) just as I'm drawing, "get on your horse!" 

You'll make a lot less mistakes by being aggressive than you will by being passive in the shot process. My opinion. But it's a battle that you have to fight almost constantly, because your body really want's to just kick back and watch it happen. Again, my opinion.


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## bgviii (Feb 16, 2010)

Is this a "letting it happen" thing without really bearing down and are you staring loosely at the dot instead of the X?


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

Spectator shooting? I surely hope you meant "Spectacular".


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

You have officially been " Padgettized". LOL


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## tuckerjt07 (Dec 18, 2014)

bfisher said:


> Spectator shooting? I surely hope you meant "Spectacular".


Spectator as in he's just along for the ride as far as his firing engine goes. Draw the bow, aim the bow, and SURPRISE your arrow is now in the X and all you did was watch it happen.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Saw "Spectator shooting" and I thought, wow, what a great idea...then I read his post.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Spectator as in he's just along for the ride as far as his firing engine goes. Draw the bow, aim the bow, and SURPRISE your arrow is now in the X and all you did was watch it happen.


OK, so he meant he was on auto-pilot. Got it. Thanks.


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## Dr. Perk (Jun 21, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> fanio, I hear you. Have experienced that same exact thing at times. I didn't come out of it by doing a drill that required me to study sight movement. Here is what I did, it's very simple. Before I ever draw the bow I MUST establish somewhat of an aggressive mindset. In other words, I am not going to get lazy and loaf. With me that is normally the cause of sight movement that occurs just after an extended period of dead stillness, I just wasn't prepared to shoot the shot! I was just enjoying the view.
> 
> When I find myself falling slowly into that habit I will often say to myself (sometimes out loud,) just as I'm drawing, "get on your horse!"
> 
> You'll make a lot less mistakes by being aggressive than you will by being passive in the shot process. My opinion. But it's a battle that you have to fight almost constantly, because your body really want's to just kick back and watch it happen. Again, my opinion.


This seems to work for me as well.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> fanio, I hear you. Have experienced that same exact thing at times. I didn't come out of it by doing a drill that required me to study sight movement. Here is what I did, it's very simple. Before I ever draw the bow I MUST establish somewhat of an aggressive mindset. In other words, I am not going to get lazy and loaf. With me that is normally the cause of sight movement that occurs just after an extended period of dead stillness, I just wasn't prepared to shoot the shot! I was just enjoying the view.
> 
> When I find myself falling slowly into that habit I will often say to myself (sometimes out loud,) just as I'm drawing, "get on your horse!"
> 
> You'll make a lot less mistakes by being aggressive than you will by being passive in the shot process. My opinion. But it's a battle that you have to fight almost constantly, because your body really want's to just kick back and watch it happen. Again, my opinion.


Awful close to my "Haul Back and shoot."


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me you have stumbled on a great lesson that archery has to offer and you work has only beginning to find out the answers, why? Because a day like the one you just had comes along and then a few days later it may bite you in the rear at a competition where there is a little nervous energy and now you are standing there frozen and nothing is happening and the clock is ticking. You won't know until you show up and either things go your way or they don't. 

I personally think you are one step closer to really finding something special that is going to allow you to shoot at a high level and there may be a few little tweaks in the mental approach but you are close.

Here is my original Spectator Shooting article in the next post.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

“Spectator Shooting” is something that I envisioned in August 2013, I was becoming a hinge shooter but I was still hanging on to some to the issues of being a puncher for so many years. That month I asked myself a question; “Does Reo Wilde hope or pray or force himself to hit a bullseye? My answer was hell no, he is the best freaking shooter in the world and he already knows he is going to get an x. He has an awesome small float and a good firing engine and he just lets them do their job and he gets to watch through the peep as it happens. I thought to myself I wish I could watch through his peep and see what his float looks like and what his firing engine feels like and just watch the arrow fly to the bullseye.

That is when I envisioned “Spectator Shooting” for the first time because I decided to do exactly that with my own shooting, I know that I am not Reo Wilde but why the hell can’t I act like him. I study my float all the time and I know what it looks like and I have a very good float, I also have a good firing engine that fires my hinge in around 3 to 5 seconds every shot. I decided to just draw back and settle in and then just spectate through the peep and watch my float without touching my pin or influencing it, I really do just watch it do its thing and at the same time I run my engine and yes I can feel it running but I don’t mess with it I just watch my float and I feel the engine running and then the arrow is on its way and I watch it hit the bullseye.

This is “Spectator Shooting” and to me it is the ultimate goal of letting go of commanding the shot in any way, “Spectator Shooting” is very relaxing and stress free because you aren’t controlling the pin and you aren’t pausing and restarting the firing engine so you are really just watching through the peep.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One thing that I strongly suggest is that you actually run a firing engine, just standing there and watching the float for me has produced some really really good shooting over the last few years but in the end it has bit me in the butt to many times and I have learned to just not do it. Why? Because there are things such as poor footing and nerves and down hill shots and many other things that change the angles in our shooting form just enough that just standing there will cause problems. So make sure that you are actually running a firing engine that has a ample amount of rotation in it to fire regardless of how poor the footing or the other issues that pop up.


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## yeroc (Jan 11, 2007)

ive tried spectator shooting..if my float is having a rock solid day then its fun.if not it nust sucks for me. having no control over it drives me nuts.my issue lately is my firing engine.im having a hard time choosing a successful one.i talked to larry wise the other day,for along time ive used his method but found inconsistencies in it.its hard to duplicate it.but when i use hand rotation/squeeze and pull method its even worse...lol..im sure its something im doing incorrectly.so frustrating getting to the next level.i practice my rear end off.it was hard enuff for me to get to 300 50x's...been scratching my head on how to squeeze more X's out.back to spectator shooting...as padgett commented,spectator shooting can work well ive had aweeome shootin sessions with it being calm and relaxed practicing but under pressure i personally disliked it.i felt like i wasnt at the helm


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks Shawn. Good point about being active. As I said in the OP, I did not really intend shooting the first shot, but wanted to just look at the float. I recognise doing something to make it go off I needed - especially when I'm feeling the nerves. In target shooting, my best accuracy comes when I shoot with pure back tension. Shooting this group at 90m a year or so ago. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1728212&d=1375803325

Sadly that's not representative of my shooting. 

but with up/down shots in field archery, sometimes the hinge won't fire at all - telling me I'm probably a bit too passive generally.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I had a interesting saturday 3d shoot because I am really wanting to win shooter of the year at this local shoot for one thing and I just switched back to my old target bow after giving 8 months to a new bow starting in august. So I had some nervous energy on the first few targets of the day.

So:

I guessed my yardage for the first shot and I told myself one thing that i was going to focus on for the first few shots. I chose a smooth transition from being on the thumb peg to being off the thumb peg. That was it. So I had taken a picture of what the 12 ring looked like with my pin on the 12 ring mentally and I came to anchor and smoothly released the peg as I settled in on the spot just like my mental picture and I smoked the little turkey 12 ring. 

The nervous energy was gone by target three and I had a sweet day putting up a really strong score on a tough course but I don't want you guys to think I am just letting my pin just willy nilly float all over the place because that is anything but the truth.

My float:

1. I train to reduce my float to almost a stand still and have done so for years

2. My float is within a asa 12 ring from 20 to 40 yards. At 50 yards it travels from outer edge to outer edge.

3. My float doesn't have funny jumps or dips in it.

4. My float stays nice and sweet as long as I don't do something stupid like add some back tension to the shot because it isn't firing and I want it to fire now.

You can't just decide to be a spectator shooter and try it, becoming a spectator shooter is no different than becoming a hinge shooter or a thumb trigger shooter. It is something that you have to train with and become. Secondly just because you go to a big shoot and fail doesn't mean that you throw it down the toilet and never do it again. For me I can do many things in the back yard and shoot 12's and become really confident but until you show up and put yourself on the shooting line or stake you don't learn the finer points to refine your chosen method and learn to use it to your benefit.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For example here are the basic goals that I live by in my pursuit to be a really strong 3d shooter:

1. I need to learn to actually float on the 12 ring even when I can't see the darn thing.

2. I need to run a firing engine that fires within a shot window where I am floating on the 12 ring.

3. I need that firing engine to be independent from my aiming so it isn't screwing it up.

4. I need to train to reduce my float pattern to the point where I can comfortably aim directly at a 50 yard asa 12 ring and hit it 50% of the time.

Those are beyond important goals to me and not claims, THEY ARE NOT CLAIMS OF MY SHOOTING ABILITY. They are my goals that I hope to meet and I set them high so that I have something lofty to shoot for and achieve. Some of the goals are physical and some are mental, but they all have purpose and that purpose is to be a solid 3d shooter that isn't leaving points on the course for lack of training all of the specific areas.

These areas are rarely discussed because we take them way to lightly and we discuss back tension till the moon rises over and over. But Just over a year ago when I started becoming a much stronger 3d shooter I got sick of stinking hitting exactly where I wanted to only to find that I had aimed at something that wasn't the 12 ring. So I started trying to learn how in the crap do I actually hit something that i can't freaking see. That is when I stumbled on taking a picture mentally of what my pin would look like perfectly centered on the 12 ring. Since then I find myself being able to tell you exactly where my point of impact is on a 12 ring almost all the time the moment it hits the target. 

All of these things are connected from the floating to aiming to what kind of dot or 12 ring you are aiming at and learning to train your mind to handle it in a productive way is the key.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

What do you do to train to make your float smaller?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well:

1. A full set of front and rear stabs where I have tested many different weight combinations to find the one that gives me the best hold or float. This can get rid of a jumpy or jittery or wiggly float and it can slow down the float to the point where it is moving in in quick sand instead of a super ball that is dropped off a table.

2. I study my float when at full draw when not shooting so that I can compare that natural float with my float when shooting to see if my firing engine is creating some weird modified float that sucks. You really need to know what your natural float really looks like.

So to me those are the two main things that i do to work on my float and they are both important but to me the obvious one is the stabs thing and the not so obvious one is the natural float one. I can still remember when I finally started doing my let down work and I saw my natural float for the first time and it didn't take long to see the crap or damage that my firing engine was doing to it. That lead me to months of training and getting rid of a lot of garbage in my firing engine that was the problem.

A lot of guys talk about draw length and for me my float doesn't seem to care about draw length changes, the draw length changes make my shot feel different and it affects my firing engine but it doesn't seem to mess with the float. Now I will say that the fact that I am proficient with all of the popular firing methods out there that they have a affect on your float and that is why I have picked one that does the least amount of damage, all firing methods do the job of getting rid of the arrow but some like to pull the pin off the spot and let it dip out the bottom etc.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

good post. thanks


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I think I know, but would ask Padgett to relate of being "relaxed" beings tension can be a real killer.


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## Vegeman (Jan 9, 2014)

This is so interesting. I've kinda developed my own understanding of this through trial and error, but I never knew there was an 'official' term for it ("Spectator shooting"). Neat !


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## Fordfanv (Apr 27, 2014)

Question are you focused on the 12 ring and you see your pin is out of focus floating inside it or are you focused on the pin and the 12 ring is in the back ground out of focus?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

No, I am not totally focused on the 12 ring because I can't see it. When I step up to a 3d stake I spend the first few minutes judging the yardage and then I will take a look at the target through my binos and I will look for the 12 ring and a marker. Many times the marker is not the 12 ring and many times it is a good 2 or 3 inches off the 12 ring and it could be a strip of shade or a arrow or anything to use as a marker that I can see with my naked eye. 

So once I establish where the 12 ring is at and if there is a marker that is usable then I look at the target and I mentally visualize my green .19 pin floating on the 12 ring and at that moment I take a visual picture of the target with my pin floating on the spot. 

Now when it is my turn I step to the stake and check my yardage on the sight tape and then just before I draw I look at the target and I allow myself to see that picture as I look at the target and I then draw the bow and come to anchor. Once I am at anchor I want to settle into the target and I want what I see through the peep to be the same as what I was visualizing and I execute my shot. 

For me this approach to shooting 3d has been a breakthrough, I always knew that the guys who owned a range had a huge advantage of aiming at the 12 ring because they shot targets all the time and it just became habit. I don't own a range so this method has given me the ability to actually aim at the 12 ring.

Now that is not the only benefit, by not trying to burn a hole in the 12 ring I don't get tunnel vision. For years I tried to find the 12 ring and then when I shot the target I would really focus hard on it and there are so many bad things that are attached to this style of aiming. Target panic and tunnel vision where you loose the ability to see anything but what you are staring at are just two of the many.

For me the big difference between indoor and 3d is that with 3d there is just enough stress attached to actually aiming at the 12 ring that with spectator shooting you stay focused on the job at hand. With indoor shooting it is very easy when spectator shooting to loose focus because you are so relaxed and enjoying your shooting session so much you can allow a shot or two get away and miss a x. I have had this happen many times where I have shot a few hundred x's in a row and then just let my mind wander and there is a miss. To me though that doesn't mean to abandon spectator shooting it means get my head out of my rear and stay focused on the job at hand.

The biggest issue to get past with any aiming method that you choose is your confidence that you can actually hit what you are aiming at. I already know that I am a very strong shooter and that I can hit a 5-spot x any time I want to, it isn't luck or by chance that I hit them because I am good enough to hit them all the time. With that said then why would I need to burn a hole in it just to hope and hit it? To me that method has a lot of doubt attached to it where a guy believes he must control the outcome because he has mental issues with his ability so by super focusing so much he can overcome those doubts in shooting ability and force the x to happen. I have done that method for decades and I know the outcomes that are attached. With spectator shooting you are allowing yourself to become a mature shooter that is aware of his ability and you then execute your shot in a quality way that you have been training with and you enjoy your day and hit the spot over and over..


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Padgett said:


> ... allowing yourself to become a mature shooter that is aware of his ability and you then execute your shot in a quality way that you have been training with and you enjoy your day and hit the spot over and over..


This is gold.


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## Fordfanv (Apr 27, 2014)

Thanks I will work on that style more, I have done it a few times but can not quite repeat it consistently. Shorter ranges I stay in the ten ring but, at the longer ones I tend to see the hole 8 ring area, and end up hitting there.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just keep in mind that ACCURACY IS YOUR ENEMY, our pride and desire to hit the stinking 12 ring is the leading contributor to all the issues and mental barriers that end up screwing with us. In the beginning usually a persons shooting ability is very low and all they have is desire to hit the spot but as you gain confidence that you can actually hit the spot that is the time when you have to take a step back and remind yourself that I am good enough to hit the spot at 20 yards so I am going to allow that to happen by just executing a smooth shot and I am going to send the arrow on its way. Sooner or later you will be able to move back and do the same thing. 

For me in 2006 I came off 25 years of back yard shooting where I could shoot 6 arrows at the same spot on a target and basically never hit another arrow, i believe that my dad bought me those xx75 aluminum arrows when I was in college along with a used bow and I had shot them for at least 15 years and I don't remember ever replacing any nocks because I simply sucked. I knew none of the lessons that archery has to offer but I got lucky and finally found my way and now I shoot one arrow at 40 yards at a individual spot because I don't like tearing up arrows. I would love to improve and be able to say that at 50 yards but I am not there yet but at 40 yards I do just tell myself that I have the ability to hit it virtually every time so I am going to just execute a solid smooth shot and send my arrow on its way.


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## Fordfanv (Apr 27, 2014)

Thanks Pagett, I tried to do this last night at our local league, and actually hit 4 12's out of 15 targets a first for me and i was nervous because I was shooting with one of our better shooters, a couple of the shots I did not even realize I was executing my shot engine. Felt good but I still found myself burning a hole in the target at times. I am going to my first ASA shoot on Saturday and then we are going to Paris next week Let you know how things go.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Make sure you do a good job of soaking up the shoots as a learning thing and enjoy your weekends, you need to do this to earn the right to shoot super high scores later on.


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## Fordfanv (Apr 27, 2014)

Last night I tried just watching my pin float and much to my surprise I figured out some very basic things. 
I can run my release engine with out really paying close attention too it and with a minor change in my release arm my pin barely moves now. 
I was able to three holes in a 3 spot target (resized for 6 yards)that were all about the size of a quarter. Very cool just watching things happen. Going to the range tonight and see what i can do at 20 yards.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Make sure that you have your brain screwed on correctly, by saying that you are going to the range tonight to see what you can do at 20 yards is a dangerous way of thinking. Why? Because you already know that you can hit a 12 ring at 20 yards, you don't have to see what you can do there because you already know what you can do there. What spectator shooting allows you to do is perform at 100% efficiency without forcing things to happen, instead of being scared that you might miss so you had better bear down and make it happen you already know that you have the ability to hit the 12 ring virtually every time so you are going to just execute a smooth shot and allow the arrow to travel to the target. Your ability that you have is well within the ability to hit at that distance.

Sooner or later you will move out of your comfort zone to a distance that is just far enough that your ability to hit a 12 ring most of the time just isn't going to happen, for me that is beyond 40 yards. At 40 yards on a normal day I can hit a 12 ring almost all the time but the fact that I already know that I am going to miss doesn't mean that I am going to do something extra to try and clean up that one arrow out of 5 that misses. I stay clean between my ears and I remind myself to come to anchor and settle in on the 12 ring and execute smoothly and if I do that I am giving my arrow a great chance at nailing the 12 ring even at 40 yards. Now once I get back a little farther and my groups start to expand you have to be able to accept the arrow missing the 12 ring because you are now out of your comfort zone but the whole goal should remain the same, I am going to smoothly send a arrow to the 12 ring and give the arrow a chance to hit but I am not going to do something extra to try and force or command it to hit.


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## Fordfanv (Apr 27, 2014)

Very good point, yes i know I can hit the 12 ring at 20, 30 to 35 not real consistent yet so I will see how that goes tonight with the new system and form adjustments I discovered last night. Plus just keep the brain clear and watch the arrow hit the spot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There is such a fine line between your thoughts hurting you by introducing little target panic or control issues. Cbrunson and I have been debating and talking about these things lately and to shoot at a very high level you must be doing things to allow yourself to hold and fire at a high level so just floating around and waiting really isn't what a top level shooter is doing. But at the same time to me in the beginning just allowing yourself to experience shots where you had no expectations of accuracy and you truly just execute a smooth shot with the pin floating is where you begin. Then as time goes on you can start adding very subtle things such as a shot window and your optimal firing time during that shot window and being able to shrink that float or hold down to almost a stand still but not strangling the pin to do so.

For you being in the beginning stages of these lessons just letting go of your pursuit of the 12 ring and focusing on a smooth execution is a great goal to have and for me and many other people who have done so we have found so many cool things about shooting a compound with a hinge. Then you spend a few years perfecting and building on those foundations until your shooting becomes something special.


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