# Holding weight...How much is the correct amount?



## RCR_III

The sweetspot is trial and error from my findings. It's just trying out options that work best for you and the bow and seeing how things hold. You're looking for the right amount of weight to hold at full draw that helps your body stay active and aligned. 

You're correct when it comes to finding the right holding weight vs overall weight. If you have too much holding weight, versus weight of the bow/stabilizers, you'll have a fast aim that wants to come out of the top of the target usually and things feel over powered from your end. 

If you have too much weight on the bow/stabilizers compared to holding weight, you'll feel like the bow weighs a lot and you're fighting it to stay on the spot.


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## Padgett

You want enough so that;

1. when you want to let down you can easily come on forward and let down. I see a lot of guys with big valleys and low holding weights who are holding so light of a weight that they can't let down and don't want to. 
2. A bow with a nice holding weight usually doesn't have as big a drop off into the valley and it is much smoother transition. 

I think a guy needs to spend a lot of time specifically working on his draw length, there is a window where as long as you are inside that window I see a guy that has a correct foundation. But it is up to him to spend the final time spent changing it so that when he comes to anchor and gets to that wall his body has something left to give the wall and is not already completely stretched out. 

I put my bowtech into the 65% letoff setting a couple times over the last few years and all it does is shorten the valley so there is basically no valley and the letoff is more right there on the edge. Both times I was still a valley sitter who wanted to just come into the valley and touch the wall, both times I enjoyed the feel of a little more holding weight but in the end I had to get out of that setting because I creeped to many times and got my release jerked forward. 

Since then I have learned to use Back Tension Preload and it took me getting my draw length just right and now the amount of holding weight is greater than when I was in the 65% letoff setting even though I am in the regular setting because I am inside the wall now and not valley sitting.


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## Rugby

Padgett, did you find shooting with the 65% modules helped you with developing the preload you use now with the higher let-off modules?


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## thawk

For me 22-23# and I like a light bow, 8oz rear on a 15" bar 3oz front on a 36" bar. If I could get 60% mods that allow me to sit in the valley like Padgett talked about I would be happy. My new bow is so close to the edge at 22# that I've been pulled off the wall to often.

Like others have said, trying many setups is the only way to know, when I drop below 20# I just can't seem to keep the pin in the spot! I have played with 14-24#
You will also find the different holding weight will change the way your release feels, more so if you shoot a hinge


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## RCR_III

thawk said:


> For me 22-23# and I like a light bow, 8oz rear on a 15" bar 3oz front on a 36" bar. If I could get 60% mods that allow me to sit in the valley like Padgett talked about I would be happy. My new bow is so close to the edge at 22# that I've been pulled off the wall to often.
> 
> Like others have said, trying many setups is the only way to know, when I drop below 20# I just can't seem to keep the pin in the spot! I have played with 14-24#
> You will also find the different holding weight will change the way your release feels, more so if you shoot a hinge


Have you tried thicker cables to get the holding weight up with a better valley?


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## bigHUN

#22-23 holding on cables before the letoff valley (and not after the valley and especially not on limb stops), the DW could be anything between #53 or 55 or 57 or 59


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## Padgett

Last night I shot a indoor league with my local pro shooter and he of course shot a 329 vegas but I did ask him what he shoots and he said that last year he shot his podium x with 27 pounds of holding weight. On top of that he pulls into the wall hard. 

What is funny is that he sold that podium x to my buddy and when he got the bow he couldn't believe how it felt at full draw compared to other bows he had shot and I think he backed it down.


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## Padgett

Rugby, Yes it did. I have been on archery talk a long time and have been listening to guys on here and at tournaments talk about correct draw length and Hoyt Sprial cams and a good holding weight etc. Both times I put my draw pegs into the 65% let off setting I suffered and the first time I just wrote it off that bowtech offering it but it was more of a gimmick offering and not useful. The second time that I put my draw pegs in there I had already had a buddy tell me that I was creeping off the wall as I shot and that was on my mind and that is the day that I decided to twist the bow string and shorten my draw length until it was short enough that as I came to anchor my body still had something left in it to give to the wall. 

That is what I was missing, all the times that people stressed draw length they offered no explanation. Same is true with the spiral cam guys they praise them and talk about the fact that it forces you to stay strong or against the wall but other than those little clues there really wasn't any explanation into what was really going on and how to do it. 

On top of all this having a list of things that are red flags so that when I am shooting or coaching a person that when I see or read the fact that they are dropping out of a shot or creeping off the wall or many other things it allows me to not only keep my shooting strong it helps me give a shooter something to check as a possible issue. Not only can I give them a possible issue that will explain why they feel weak and collapsing as the shot breaks but solutions to dropping out and having a stronger float.


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## SonnyThomas

Scott.Barrett said:


> My assumption has always been that there is a certain ratio of holding weight to bow weight that helps the bow hold the best...
> 
> But what if I increase/decrease the holding weight, leaving the bow weighing the same and adjusting for any change in drawlength? What should I expect to happen? Will it aim better or worse depending on the direction I go?
> 
> With bows out like Darton and Elite, where it is relatively easy to adjust the amount of letoff, How do we find the sweetspot?
> 
> SB


I haven't shot a cable stop bow since 2010 and that was a Hoyt ProElite with 75% let off cams. For me it was adjusting draw length, what kept me on the wall. 

Limb stops bows to me are a different animal. 
When limb stops hit there's no cushy feeling, just hard wall. Draw weight or let off as no bearing on how hard the wall is. That let off, whether 50% or 85%, is there a brief instant and then hard wall. Pull into it and there is no give. Hard is hard.
I've been shooting bows with limb stops since summer of 2010. Martins with single limb stop and Pearsons with dual limb stops. You hit the wall and that's it. You learn how hard to hold into the wall...and due to some physical issues right now the friendliest is more of on the long end of my draw length.


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## Rugby

Thanks Padgett for taking the time for the reply.

This is something I have been looking at since talking with a bow designer/engineer at the ATA show last month. 
His thoughts, as I understood them, were a bow would be less affected by torque by pulling into the stops rather than just sitting at them. This was for 80-85% modules.
He felt the good shooters did this and by pulling into the stops the holding weight would of course be higher effectively changing the percentage let-off.
I recall him saying it takes 40-60lbs of force (per inch) when pulling into the stops to .

I like the 85% modules on my bow but will change these out for 75's to get used to a higher holding weight. It is compulsory at 75% but optional at 85%.

Thanks for all your posts on AT. I have found them to be informative and I have enjoyed following your archery journey to date.


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## RCR_III

The higher the let off the better resistance the string has to movements. Like facial contact. That's one reason holding more weight is beneficial. The string has more tension on it and more resistance. Pulling into the wall more would raise the overall weight at hold. This is going to help more with body alignment and stability in your float pattern. This would benefit with torque to some degree, because the body will be holding itself in one place more rigidly to fight the extra weight. The bigger benefit is having a cam designed and set up for less of a percentage of let off though so you get overall benefits from higher weights on the string for resistance after your release goes off, and to aide in having resistance pulling back against the body at full draw to keep you active in the shot and aligned properly. 

That is the benefit to spirals. It's a small valley with higher holding weight, less let off, and it keeps the body more active and in line and fighting movement.


Rugby said:


> Thanks Padgett for taking the time for the reply.
> 
> This is something I have been looking at since talking with a bow designer/engineer at the ATA show last month.
> His thoughts, as I understood them, were a bow would be less affected by torque by pulling into the stops rather than just sitting at them. This was for 80-85% modules.
> He felt the good shooters did this and by pulling into the stops the holding weight would of course be higher effectively changing the percentage let-off.
> I recall him saying it takes 40-60lbs of force (per inch) when pulling into the stops to .
> 
> I like the 85% modules on my bow but will change these out for 75's to get used to a higher holding weight. It is compulsory at 75% but optional at 85%.
> 
> Thanks for all your posts on AT. I have found them to be informative and I have enjoyed following your archery journey to date.


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## montigre

RCR_III said:


> The higher the let off the better resistance the string has to movements. Like facial contact. That's one reason holding more weight is beneficial. The string has more tension on it and more resistance. Pulling into the wall more would raise the overall weight at hold. This is going to help more with body alignment and stability in your float pattern. This would benefit with torque to some degree, because the body will be holding itself in one place more rigidly to fight the extra weight. The bigger benefit is having a cam designed and set up for less of a percentage of let off though so you get overall benefits from higher weights on the string for resistance after your release goes off, and to aide in having resistance pulling back against the body at full draw to keep you active in the shot and aligned properly. That is the benefit to spirals. It's a small valley with higher holding weight, less let off, and it keeps the body more active and in line and fighting movement.


I have to make a few corrections to this post. First, readers should remember that a compound bow differs from a recurve bow in that the compound bow is representative of a closed shooting system due to the fact that it has cams. Secondly, the string of a recurve bow is one of the primary workhorses in that open system where with a compound bow, the string is pretty much just a long for the ride. If you peg the cams of a compound while at full draw to hold it in that position, the string is actually limp as a wet noodle.

So, with these facts in mind, while a higher holding weight will produce a much more stable shooting platform, the amount of letoff will have no effect on the string of a compound bow since the workhorse of a closed compound system are its cables. No amount of letoff, be it 50% or 95%, will negate the adverse reactions imposed on arrow flight by excessive facial contact. The only thing that is done to produce a higher holding weight is stopping the cams in a different position of the draw force curve. What you're feeling with a higher holding weight is the increased resistance produced within the closed system--not an affect on the string. 

Finally, shooting a bow with a higher letoff has no direct correlation to the amount of torque introduced into the system; torque applied to a well-tuned bow, that is not done so naturally by the cables, is caused by poor shooter form.


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## RCR_III

Okay, so I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. If you draw the bow back in a draw board to full draw, where stops are touching the cables, and pluck the string it'll react like a limp noodle?


montigre said:


> I have to make a few corrections to this post. First, readers should remember that a compound bow differs from a recurve bow in that the compound bow is representative of a closed shooting system due to the fact that it has cams. Secondly, the string of a recurve bow is one of the primary workhorses in that open system where with a compound bow, the string is pretty much just a long for the ride. If you peg the cams of a compound while at full draw to hold it in that position, the string is actually limp as a wet noodle.
> 
> So, with these facts in mind, while a higher holding weight will produce a much more stable shooting platform, the amount of letoff will have no effect on the string of a compound bow since the workhorse of a closed compound system are its cables. No amount of letoff, be it 50% or 95%, will negate the adverse reactions imposed on arrow flight by excessive facial contact. The only thing that is done to produce a higher holding weight is stopping the cams in a different position of the draw force curve. What you're feeling with a higher holding weight is the increased resistance produced within the closed system--not an affect on the string.
> 
> Finally, shooting a bow with a higher letoff has no direct correlation to the amount of torque introduced into the system; torque applied to a well-tuned bow, that is not done so naturally by the cables, is caused by poor shooter form.


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## RCR_III

Or just meaning if you take the load off the string by holding the cams in a locked position at full draw?


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## montigre

RCR_III said:


> Okay, so I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. If you draw the bow back in a draw board to full draw, where stops are touching the cables, and pluck the string it'll react like a limp noodle?


If you draw the bow to full draw and *PEG* the cams (like put an Allen wrench in them to prevent them from moving), yes, the string will be totally limp--you can turn it into a figure 8 if it is long enough. :wink:


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## RCR_III

Okay, that's all well and good. But that doesn't simulate a full draw position and the tension against the string. Which is what was brought up. So, we're both correct.


montigre said:


> If you draw the bow to full draw and *PEG* the cams (like put an Allen wrench in them to prevent them from moving), yes, the string will be totally limp--you can turn it into a figure 8 if it is long enough. :wink:


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## montigre

That's my point, there is no real tension against the string. You're "feeling" the tension from the cables through the cams as they are stopped earlier in the DFC. The string is just the messenger...


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## possum trapper

well someone has opened a box that I like to address.

if you don't like your shooting....change it.do not shoot a certain holding weight because "pro" says they shoot it.

i'm of the opinion whatever tension you think you have is all the shooter inducing it into their shot

so how is tension brought on?it's pretty simple it's all muscle.

so why not go lower on you holding weight so you can engage the dumb muscles easier and get a cleaner release?????

and with that lower your mass weight so you don't use them shaking muscles to hold the bow.there are certain amount of people who can handle the high mass and holding weight.if your scores are good stay with it.if you don't like them change it and don't give into peer pressure.

on the scorecard they have your name and your score.they don't ask your holding weight,arrows,release,bow,ect.....


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## RCR_III

montigre said:


> That's my point, there is no real tension against the string. You're "feeling" the tension from the cables through the cams as they are stopped earlier in the DFC. The string is just the messenger...


There's tension against the string at full draw when you're holding the string back. There's a pulling against you tension you feel. That's why there's holding weight. If you pluck a string at full draw it doesn't wobble like a wet noodle.

So while you're correct in what you said about pegging the cam, you're incorrectly applying it to the topic at hand. 

In your example, if you were to measure holding weight, it would only be the weight of the noodled string. When you're at full draw measuring holding weight in a draw board, which simulates full draw from an archer, you're incorporating the whole system together to create tension against the bow string.


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## montigre

I am not trying to argue with you, but to educate. The dynamic characteristics of a bow string while at full draw are what causes issues like facial contact to cause so many problems for shooters. If the string were not highly mobile, facial contact would not have any influence. As an aside holding weight has no bearing on the string's dynamic characteristics while at full draw. We can agree to disagree on this and that is fine, but the overall concept should be presented as correctly as possible. :smile:

For a little more in depth discourse on the DFC, please feel free to study another's interpretation of bow physics: https://sites.google.com/site/technicalarchery/technical-discussions-1/gear-head


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## RCR_III

Let me ask you this. If you look at it from a holding weight doesn't matter perspective. 

If you took a string and plucked it. Say a guitar string. The tighter you wound the string the higher pitch it plays when you pluck it. That's resistance. That's holding weight. The more resistance, holding weight, the less movement will affect the string.


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## SonnyThomas

possum trapper said:


> well someone has opened a box that I like to address.
> 
> if you don't like your shooting....change it.do not shoot a certain holding weight because "pro" says they shoot it.
> 
> i'm of the opinion whatever tension you think you have is all the shooter inducing it into their shot
> 
> so how is tension brought on?it's pretty simple it's all muscle.
> 
> so why not go lower on you holding weight so you can engage the dumb muscles easier and get a cleaner release?????
> 
> and with that lower your mass weight so you don't use them shaking muscles to hold the bow.there are certain amount of people who can handle the high mass and holding weight.if your scores are good stay with it.if you don't like them change it and don't give into peer pressure.
> 
> on the scorecard they have your name and your score.they don't ask your holding weight,arrows,release,bow,ect.....


Back on the path..... Holding weight is what gives you the best you've got, doesn't matter what percentage, doesn't matter if it's 10 pounds holding weight.

Hoyt's Randy Walk; "Accuracy comes from being on the wall."


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> , the string is actually limp as a wet noodle.
> 
> .


The "limb as a wet noodle" effect. Bow is at full draw, but no tension brought to bear to crush fingers.


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## montigre

RCR_III said:


> Let me ask you this. If you look at it from a holding weight doesn't matter perspective.
> 
> If you took a string and plucked it. Say a guitar string. The tighter you wound the string the higher pitch it plays when you pluck it. That's resistance. That's holding weight. The more resistance, holding weight, the less movement will affect the string.


You're not winding a bow's string when you draw it, you're unwinding it from the cams. As the string is unwound from the cams, the cables are wound and pick up the tension/weight of the system and transfers this energy into the limbs. 

The intrinsic design of the bow's eccentrics creates the letoff which is simply a measure of the draw-force that has to be exerted when compared to the bow's starting draw weight; the amount/size of the decrease in the required draw-force (written as a percentage) when the bow has reached full draw is the holding weight. By this time, the string's influence is long out of the picture except for being a "handle" by which to hold onto the bow.


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## RCR_III

Maybe the analogy was a bit much. The part of winding the string, as in a guitar string, meaning the more you wind it the tighter it goes. On a bow with higher holding weight, there's more tension holding back at the string. Mimicking tightening a guitar string for a higher pitch.


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## jim p

I have a bow that I can't shoot when using high letoff. I shoot 28" draw and to get the letoff down I put 29" modules on the bow and then set the draw stop for 28". This change took my left and right hits from 8" wide to 2" wide. I think that high letoff can kill your shooting.

If you can easily change your letoff, draw length, mass weight of the bow, then start experimenting and you will discover what works best for you. Which is your primary goal.



Scott.Barrett said:


> My assumption has always been that there is a certain ratio of holding weight to bow weight that helps the bow hold the best...
> 
> But what if I increase/decrease the holding weight, leaving the bow weighing the same and adjusting for any change in drawlength? What should I expect to happen? Will it aim better or worse depending on the direction I go?
> 
> With bows out like Darton and Elite, where it is relatively easy to adjust the amount of letoff, How do we find the sweetspot?
> 
> SB


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## Ned250

possum trapper said:


> well someone has opened a box that I like to address.
> 
> if you don't like your shooting....change it.do not shoot a certain holding weight because "pro" says they shoot it.
> 
> i'm of the opinion whatever tension you think you have is all the shooter inducing it into their shot
> 
> so how is tension brought on?it's pretty simple it's all muscle.
> 
> so why not go lower on you holding weight so you can engage the dumb muscles easier and get a cleaner release?????
> 
> and with that lower your mass weight so you don't use them shaking muscles to hold the bow.there are certain amount of people who can handle the high mass and holding weight.if your scores are good stay with it.if you don't like them change it and don't give into peer pressure.
> 
> on the scorecard they have your name and your score.they don't ask your holding weight,arrows,release,bow,ect.....


:thumbs_up


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## Scott.Barrett

To all involved, thank you for your excellent responses! 

I seem to remember a while back that the "pros" seemed to like a certain ratio of bow weight to holding weight. I thought it was somewhere between .45 and .55 when taking the weight of the system(say 10lbs) divided by the holding weight(let's say 20lbs) so that 10#/20# = .5

Would there be value to this or perhaps a range that would most likely produce worse shooting results?

SB


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## SonnyThomas

Formulas are just that, to get you somewhere in the ball park...if that. Like possum trapper, if you can't handle the holding weight lower it and if need more, add more.


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## Padgett

I think it would be so cool if someone would make some indoor specific cams where the poundage started at lets say 55 and the whole time you were drawing the bow it was loosing poundage on a steady rate and you came into the wall at the final holding weight of lets say 23lbs. so if you wanted a 22 lb holding weight you would back the bow to 54 and if you wanted 24 holding weight you set it to 56. To me this would be a cool bow because of the lack of ramp up to get to 3d speed, right now all target bows doubble as a 3d bow so the draw cycles are getting ibo speeds in the mid 320's. With a indoor specific bow speed doesn't matter so you could think outside the box a little.


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## montigre

Scott.Barrett said:


> To all involved, thank you for your excellent responses!
> 
> I seem to remember a while back that the "pros" seemed to like a certain ratio of bow weight to holding weight. I thought it was somewhere between .45 and .55 when taking the weight of the system(say 10lbs) divided by the holding weight(let's say 20lbs) so that 10#/20# = .5
> 
> Would there be value to this or perhaps a range that would most likely produce worse shooting results?
> 
> SB


Actually, that formula has quite a lot of merit because it takes into consideration the bow's mass weight as part of the whole equation which will provide a very good starting point to fine tuning the holding weight for an individual's set up. Arbitrarily saying I need 22# holding weight because my draw weight is 55# is leaving out that vital component of the system and could have the shooter chasing their tails since they'd have no idea if they should increase their holding, mass or draw weights to steady a sight picture and get off a good release.


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## possum trapper

montigre said:


> Actually, that formula has quite a lot of merit because it takes into consideration the bow's mass weight as part of the whole equation which will provide a very good starting point to fine tuning the holding weight for an individual's set up. Arbitrarily saying I need 22# holding weight because my draw weight is 55# is leaving out that vital component of the system and could have the shooter chasing their tails since they'd have no idea if they should increase their holding, mass or draw weights to steady a sight picture and get off a good release.



if everyone is using the same muscles and in a perfect world they would be.Let's take 2 great archers Reo and Jesse.they are not even close to be using the same nor setting the release off the same.
Jesse has a bent bow arm which in theory uses more muscles than a straight armed person but if you add mass weight you will use more of those muscles.

some archers lean back some don't some have low relaxed shoulders some don't.

I do know 1 thing its easier to engage muscles with no weight or very little but you need some holding weight to keep you compressed while at full draw

it would be my guess most archers don't get into their back until full draw under the holding weight(didn't say it was correct)but if you try to engage at full draw would it be easier to do it at 20lbs or 10lbs??????and if only engage your back and not your release hand muscles you will get a clean release.now if someone relaxes their hand to set release off which is it easier to do 20 or 10lbs???

if you don't like your shooting start off lower holding and work up from there.your arrow placement will tell you when to stop


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## sharkred7

possum trapper said:


> if everyone is using the same muscles and in a perfect world they would be.Let's take 2 great archers Reo and Jesse.they are not even close to be using the same nor setting the release off the same.
> Jesse has a bent bow arm which in theory uses more muscles than a straight armed person but if you add mass weight you will use more of those muscles.
> 
> some archers lean back some don't some have low relaxed shoulders some don't.
> 
> I do know 1 thing its easier to engage muscles with no weight or very little but you need some holding weight to keep you compressed while at full draw
> 
> it would be my guess most archers don't get into their back until full draw under the holding weight(didn't say it was correct)but if you try to engage at full draw would it be easier to do it at 20lbs or 10lbs??????and if only engage your back and not your release hand muscles you will get a clean release.now if someone relaxes their hand to set release off which is it easier to do 20 or 10lbs???
> 
> if you don't like your shooting start off lower holding and work up from there.your arrow placement will tell you when to stop


Right on as always Possum!

Its a proven fact that a heavier bow will sit more still, especially in the wind. Problem here is a heavier bow takes more muscle to operate. You have to find how much you can handle without tiring/creeping, etc. As possum stated, your scores will dictate where that is for your strength and shooting style.

Keep accurate logs of all changes. Log how you feel shooting, sight picture, release execution and then score. Also don't make drastic changes at once and give your changes a chance to really find out if it gets better or worse.


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## montigre

possum trapper said:


> I do know 1 thing its easier to engage muscles with no weight or very little but you need some holding weight to keep you compressed while at full draw
> 
> it would be my guess most archers don't get into their back until full draw under the holding weight(didn't say it was correct)but if you try to engage at full draw would it be easier to do it at 20lbs or 10lbs??????and if only engage your back and not your release hand muscles you will get a clean release.now if someone relaxes their hand to set release off which is it easier to do 20 or 10lbs???


Of course a heavier bow is much easier to shoot. I agree with you 100% and that is exactly how I and probably most of the other competitive shooters here found their "ideal" holding weight. I was just stating that for the newer shooter, the formula that Scott brought up would give them a pretty good starting point to build on that does factor in all of the variables without all of the trial and error we went through.


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## bigHUN

You asking for a timing relations between the main cam and so called DL modules. 
Not sure if you ever tried any OK bows (really don't want marketing this brand but the idea of the 3 track cam system) where you can alter the timing very fast and easy (no need a press, that is a beauty working with four cables). 
Or to transfer the experiment to a generic bow, move the DL module to a position let say 1/4" shorter/longer and lengthen/shorten the string whatever you like....won't be that easy game but the end result how it feels the entire draw cycle that is a goal.
Also talking about benefits of using custom length cables and string (the length ratio) that would be a long story, but I believe most of the "real" tournament shooters don't use stock stuff (didn't want to repeat "pro's" that phrase sounds cheap lately in this IA).
I was (I am still) crazy playing with these things, I was experimenting for a while with DFC on bunch of bows and if you ask me what are my current bow specs? I have no idea, that got lost in time, 
Currently using the abs40. Limbs rated #70 or 75 not sure. 
But the bent angle is defined with interchangeable blocks (the blocks numbered from 0 to 6) so swapping the blocks changing the preload on #DW and you can have the limb bolts all the way in and you can have #50 or #60 or whatever DW you want....
Also and twisting the cables changing the curve steepness of the draw, you can have climb earlier to plateau or softer, also from the other side to slide earlier of softer towards the valley, you can delete the valley completely and hold on cables only.... 
If you would borrow my bows for couple shots  3 bows same parts same specs (ie #55/23) but feels soo different
I am sure will get an eye opener 
:jaw:


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## Shadowrider13

Scott.Barrett said:


> My assumption has always been that there is a certain ratio of holding weight to bow weight that helps the bow hold the best...
> 
> But what if I increase/decrease the holding weight, leaving the bow weighing the same and adjusting for any change in drawlength? What should I expect to happen? Will it aim better or worse depending on the direction I go?
> 
> With bows out like Darton and Elite, where it is relatively easy to adjust the amount of letoff, How do we find the sweetspot?
> 
> SB



Hey Scott,

It's Joyce..I changed my letoff on the Executive to 70%. Feels really good. I started with the standard 80 - tried the 75 letoff; but, the 70 seems to be the sweet spot for me. I guess it's just a little trial and error. See you at the next shoot.


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