# Tuning - Arrows Slanted Left



## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

I understand that when the arrows are hitting to the left, it means the plunger is too stiff.

But what if they're hitting straight but are slanted left? Does the same rule apply? Or do i have to change something different?

(slanted left means the nocks are pointing to the left. head-on, the nock is to the left of the fletched arrows)


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm assuming since you are on the FITA site that you are shooting recurve. Assuming you are right handed, the nock slanting left shows that the arrows are weak spined or you have a clearance problem. Assuming the arrows are too weak you can go to a lighter point, use stiffer arrows or increase plunger spring tension.

You can also try a heavier string or if you have the ability to adjust the bow weight lower the poundage.

I find that the best way to tune bow and arrow combination is to bare shaft tune.

If you give us your set-up information we could help more. Bow poundage, draw length, arrow length, tip weight, aluminum or other, arrow spine, distance from the target, etc.

TAO


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

*left nocks*

We are actually missing a lot of info that would be helpful.

How far are you from the target.

Left hand, right hand?

Bow type (center shot possible or beginner bow, with no cutout in window)

Are you talking about a bare shaft hitting differently than fletched arrows

Are you using feathers or vanes (what size)

have someone watch the arrow flight. Do they fishtail wildly or do they seem to fly fairly straight?

Of course weight of bow, setup, etc would help. have you done a basic setup procedure yet? 

I see you are in SF. I am at GGP archery range most Saturday mornings with the JOAD club and can take a look at your rig setup if you want.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

> Assuming the arrows are too weak you can go to a lighter point, use stiffer arrows or increase plunger spring tension.


Or push out the plunger slightly.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"Or push out the plunger slightly."

This same advice given to me by Midwayarcher (thanks, Gabe!) solved the problem described by the OP that I, too, was having this summer.


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

Fita Recurve
Right Hand
23" GMX Riser
42# 990TX Medium Limbs (so 44# with the 23" riser)
710 A/C/G's cut to 25 3/4", 100 grain points
1 3/4" Blue Spin Wings set for Right Hand
BCY 8125 16 Strand string with 0.018 serving made for small Easton pin nocks

The bare shafts are slanting while the fletched arrows are going straight. 

I pushed the plunger out slightly and it helped dramatically. Although I'm not sure how far is too far with the plunger (when setting the centershot, the arrow tip is outside of the string with a space of about 1/2 the tip away from the string)

This was at 18m, and i'm starting to suspect a clearance problem since moving the plunger out helped but changing the stiffness didn't.


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

dchan said:


> We are actually missing a lot of info that would be helpful.
> 
> How far are you from the target.
> 
> ...


I'm from SF and i shoot at GGP a lot, but during the school year i'm down at UCLA. Thanks for offering though!


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

At a 25" draw length you are pulling about 38lbs. That would depend on how far you have the limb bolts cranked in. 26" A/C/G's should be slightly stiff but still tunable.

Where are the unfletched arrows landing relative to the fletched arrows? 

If the arrows are tuned properly, the unfletched arrows should group with the fletched. If so I wouldn't worry about how the nocks are pointing. 

If the unfletched arrows land to the left of the fletched arrows the are acting stiff. If to the right, they are acting weak. 

Unfletched arrows are slightly weaker spined than fletched so grouping slighly to the right is acceptable. If your arrows are grouping to the left, you may try a string with 14 or even 12 strands. The increased string speed will soften the arrows a bit. 12 strands of BCY should easily be good up to 50lbs.



> when setting the centershot, the arrow tip is outside of the string with a space of about 1/2 the tip away from the string


The end of the shaft should just be to the left of the string (don't use the tip as a guideline). If you had to move the plunger out to get to that point your center shot may not have been set properly.

Hope that helps.

TAO


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

TheAncientOne said:


> At a 25" draw length you are pulling about 38lbs. That would depend on how far you have the limb bolts cranked in. 26" A/C/G's should be slightly stiff but still tunable.
> 
> Where are the unfletched arrows landing relative to the fletched arrows?
> 
> ...


I moved the centershot further left than the recommended point. it was originally set so that the end of the shaft was touching the left side of the string, but now it's been moved further left. (basically the shaft is no longer touching the string)

The bare-shafts land in the same group as the fletched arrows (group size is the 9 ring of 40cm face) but the bare shafts are consistently landing with the same angle end after end. In the past when i tuned the bare-shafts would either fly to the side and be slanted or fly with the fletched arrows and be straight. I never got a mix before.

The shafts are about right for what i'm shooting. The bolts are about 1.5 turns from the max turns. my shibuya dx plunger has the medium spring and is about half way turned in.


And i actually ended up fixing the problem. I moved my plunger a quarter turn more to the left and increased the plunger 2 turns of the spring bolt.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

*Tuning problem resolved? Sorry, A long response..*

Hi,

This will be a long drawn out response but hopefully will shed some light on your issue. By the way I don't think you have fixed your problem, only the symptom. I'll explain in a moment why I think this. You can take my advice or leave it.

Since there are still too many unanswered questions regarding form, equipment, actual setup, and other variables I will refrain from making any judgment in those areas for now.

A couple of presumptions will need to be made and a couple more questions that will help shed some light on the symptom you are seeing.

First the questions.

Did you try the bare shaft test at multiple distances other than 18M? and what were the results.
Did you try just bare shaft shooting at multiple distances and how did the arrows impact (left, right high or low nocks) based on distance.
Did you ever have someone watch your arrow flight, (bare shaft and fletched) to see how the arrows were flying.. (fishtailing, spinning, waving around in a circle, etc)

The presumptions are that you have been shooting for a while and are using a stabilizer, finger sling. What other accessories are you currently using on your rig? clicker, vbars, etc

Here's why I think you are still out of tune.

The fact that you had to move so far from center shot to get the arrows to group together and impact with a straight nock, tell me you are making an adjustment that just makes the arrow hit at that distance in the same place and with the bare shaft straight. You are "tuning" the bow to have the arrow impact the bale at just the correct time so that arrow is in a neutral part of it's self correction.

More info, 

Viper1 mentioned in another thread that a poorly tuned bow and arrow rig will still shoot and even stack arrows if it is shot by a machine. I firmly believe this as well. We tune a bow to make it more forgiving, and to allow for many things that technology can not do yet or is not allowed or impractical in recurve olympic shooting (such as a drop away rest).

Given a perfect world, there would be no archers paradox. We would fire an arrow such that the nock/string end were pushed so perfectly straight and the arrow were perfectly centered in the path of the string that we would transfer all the energy into moving the arrow forward and no energy would be spent bending the arrow or pushing the arrow sideways. The arrow would not require feathers of vanes to correct flight and keep the arrow from wavering from it's path. Because all the energy is so perfectly focused through the length of the arrow and the arrows were perfectly straight, it would not matter what spine the arrow was because it would not have to keep from bending or allow for more bending. With this perfect rig, a plunger would not be needed however we would need to somehow move the arrow rest a little to allow for full clearance of the arrow. We would also need the bow not to move left right, up or down, twist or roll. 

So the problem with this.. We are not perfect, MFG is not perfect, stuff happens.

Now onto the reason we tune, what we do to tune and why.


Initial setup.

Nock position 3/8" above square? just enough to start with a good position. how much pressure we put on the fingers (upper and lower) and the tiller (how much each limb works) is done to try to get that "perfect thrust" of the arrow. (see the perfect world above) We are tuning out our inconsistency by moving the nock locator to make this most forgiving. how much wrist, palm or heel pressure we apply to the bow hand will also affect this. Again a starting point to be adjusted as we go through the tuning process.

Arrow point to the left of the string is to account for that fact that most right handed shooters will slightly push the string to the left a little upon release (string moving past the fingers) We want the arrow tip to be where the nock end will be just as the string begins moving forward. True centershot would require perfect mfg and no limb twist as well as enough of a cutout in the window of the riser to allow the arrow to sit center shot. This would also require enough torsional rigidity in the riser to not deform under stress to be true. How far from centershot should be minimal (again you have said you had to move quite a bit in order to get your impact to be straight) 

Because we move the point of the arrow to the left in order to account for the fingers pushing the string make it such that the arrow will bend when we let the string go. The energy is not moving perfectly straight but to the left a little. As the back of the arrow accelerates faster than the front of the arrow (at least until the front catches up with the back) the arrow will buckle and flex (archers paradox) This bend moves the back of the arrow to the left and the middle of the arrow will flex towards the riser and the arrow point to left.. The plunger will begin to absorb the movement and eventually help push the arrow back to straight. This is where loose or firm plunger pressure comes into play depending on the stiffness of the arrow (spine) The stiffer the arrow, the less it flexes. The weaker arrow bends more. A stiffer plunger pushes back more. etc.. A good tune is a good match/balance of flex of arrow and plunger pressure. This is why we adjust weight, plunger pressure, "center shot" position etc to try to find good tune. . Archers paradox is also necessary to allow for full clearance of the arrow and FLETCHES to clear the arrow rest and plunger.
As the arrow goes past the riser, it begins to correct its initial bend/flex by bouncing back the other way. If it is tuned correctly the nock end of the arrow will be flexed to the left as that part of the arrow goes past the riser thus allowing for clearance. (possibly your problem with left nocks at impact until you moved the arrow further left with the plunger)

Feathers or vanes help correct the wiggling or oscillating of arrows in flight by putting some drag on the back of the arrow while the energy transfered to the point pull the arrow along. Putting a spin vane or helical feather speed the process by getting the arrow to rotate more quickly. The reason we do a bare shaft test is to see how the arrow is flying without the assistance of drag or correction by feathers and vanes. The reason I inquired about distance for your bare shaft test is if you step back 1 meter and try again, you might find that arrows are now impacting with a right nock or maybe straight. you may be reading that at 18M the uncorrected arrow is in that particular phase of its oscillation, or that the arrow is flying all the way down the range with a left nock with no drag to pull it straight. The fact that adjusting for spine by adjusting plunger pressure didn't affect your bare shaft landing position tells a lot. Like maybe you are so far enough out of the range of the plunger that it is not helping either way. Either you are bottoming out the travel of the plunger (too weak) or not depressing the plunger at all (way too stiff or so far off center shot that the arrow just moves away from the plunger with out interacting with it at all or both)

------------------------------------

Either way your setup should be looked at again IF you are really concerned about the tune.

If you are happy that your arrows land together, straight, there are no obvious impacts with the riser (clearance) and you are not going to shoot longer distances just yet, There's nothing wrong with shooting the rig as it is setup. Work on your form and you will just be a better shooter..


Just thought I'd weigh in with my thoughts.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

oops.

Why I think you are still out of tune. (how to fix is another question that will require more research)

If you had to move your arrow point that far to the left in order to get good flight and impacts then you are either severely plucking the string, or you have moved the arrow far enough over that the corrected (fletched arrow) flight is actually too far to the left and getting corrected to match an uncorrected arrow flight that is straighter at this distance. I would interested if moving back changed your windage by a lot or the bareshaft test changed a lot. Another good indication of this might be where is your sight windage compared to where the arrow sits when sighting down the center line of the riser and the string?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Would pushing out the plunger not be similar to building out the sideplate of a longbow to get arrows to tune?

I do follow the logic that what works at 18m may not be working at 20m. It would be interesting to know the answer to that.

Just acting as devils advocate.................


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Dchan has written a very thoughtful response that in my opinion is spot on. Getting a good tune requires a bit of work. I'm betting an hour or so with an experienced hand could set the OP straight.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Greysides said:


> Would pushing out the plunger not be similar to building out the sideplate of a longbow to get arrows to tune?
> 
> I do follow the logic that what works at 18m may not be working at 20m. It would be interesting to know the answer to that.
> 
> Just acting as devils advocate.................


great question.

Pushing the plunger out would indeed be the same as building out the sideplate of a longbow in order to get the arrows to clear the bow cleanly.

My take on this is.. What are we trying to accomplish? In the case of the olympic recurve shooter with modern gear, we are trying to make the bow as forgiving as possible and as efficient as possible. We have the advantage of equipment that can be modified very easily with a turn of a screw or bolt. We have lots of arrows to select from, limbs that we can change or crank up, down etc.. While pushing the plunger out may fix the symptom the OP was seeing, we in fact may have made the bow less efficient and taken it further from it's "sweet spot" By doing so we probably would make the bow less forgiving to shot execution errors.

Also changing distances may require more windage adjustments due to the fact that we are mainly tuning out a symptom rather than finding the "best tune" for the arrows/bow/archer combination. Both arrows (fletched and Bare Shaft) shooting to the left means the further back you go the more to the left the arrows will be.

our "ideal " on a recurve/olympic setup is that the arrows impact centered and straight using the arrow before release as a reference.
If we can accomplish this with fletched or bare shafts, with good clearance and consistent groups we are getting to the "sweet spot"

In the case of the longbow, we don't have the luxury of clearance from the riser using different mfg processes, adjustable weights, plunger, etc. Therefore our primary goal is getting good flight out of a given arrow by forcing the arrow to bend a certain amount upon release. we are not looking for efficiency in string to arrow energy transfer) but how can we make "archers paradox" work best to give us good clearance and better arrow flight. Building out or pushing the arrow to the left a little will cause the arrow to bend more or act weaker because the strings path will not be in direct line with the arrows direction. Finding just the right amount of ofset and bend of the arrow is the "tuning" we do to a long bow.

As mentioned before, We are human and not machines so we are tuning the bow to help us with all the bad habits we have in shooting.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

> I do follow the logic that what works at 18m may not be working at 20m. It would be interesting to know the answer to that.


If you have access to an outdoor range you could "walk back" tune your set up to see how the unfletched arrows deviate from the fletched every few yards for as far back as you have room for.

Check out this link for tuning tips: http://www.tenzone.u-net.com/Equipment/tuning/pdfs/tuning01.pdf

TAO


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

It's a centershot issue. 

If both fletched and bareshafts are hitting same spot but fletched are | bare are / centershot is too far in and if it's bareshafts are \ centershot is too far out (common) hen you move youre centershot it's common to have to retune. I changed my centershot 1/8th turn it changed my tune by 4 inches at 30 m


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I stringwalk and I've been shooting this season with arrows whose tips are pushed well out to the left of the string. Not out of choice but out of necessity. SW does involve spine changes with crawls so maybe observations are not completely transferable. However, any poor shots I've had can be put down to me not the set up.

So, looking at this through coloured glasses.....



dchan said:


> While pushing the plunger out may fix the symptom the OP was seeing, we in fact may have made the bow less efficient and taken it further from it's "sweet spot" By doing so we probably would make the bow less forgiving to shot execution errors.


I suspect that there is good experience-based reason for centreshot being set to the conventional position and I can agree with your conclusion. I also note the use of the words 'may' and 'probably'. 



> Also changing distances may require more windage adjustments due to the fact that we are mainly tuning out a symptom rather than finding the "best tune" for the arrows/bow/archer combination. Both arrows (fletched and Bare Shaft) shooting to the left means the further back you go the more to the left the arrows will be.


It sounds to me as if this isn't the case for the OP. I could have mis-understood.

For me, difficult to say, I noted my fletched arrows acting weak at 50m and marginally stiff at 5m. This is what I would expect to find, for myself. Again SW may have influenced the results.




> In the case of the longbow, we don't have the luxury of clearance from the riser using different mfg processes, adjustable weights, plunger, etc.


I certainly see the logic to that. Different animals, those set ups.


I suspect that the arrows are on the weak side for the set up, just as mine are for me. I would expect more 'foregiving' results if arrows were used that were spined in the middle of their poundage limits. 

If the OP can give us his experiences at a couple of different distances it would be interesting.

Thanks for your input, dchan.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Jake Kaminski said:


> It's a centershot issue.
> 
> If both fletched and bareshafts are hitting same spot but fletched are | bare are / centershot is too far in and if it's bareshafts are \ centershot is too far out (common) hen you move youre centershot it's common to have to retune. I changed my centershot 1/8th turn it changed my tune by 4 inches at 30 m


Thanks for that reply.



> If you have access to an outdoor range you could "walk back" tune your set up to see how the unfletched arrows deviate from the fletched every few yards for as far back as you have room for.


Thanks TAO. The trouble with SWing is that the BS and fletched really only come together over a narrow range of crawl. I could gap shoot to find an answer............................ but thats a black art! 

Final thought: Most of the mechanics are beyond my understanding but I remember reading on Joe Tapleys site that you really can only tune arrows for one distance. Now, it could be a matter of very small degrees of accuracy between distances. I don't know.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Greysides said:


> So, looking at this through coloured glasses.....
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that there is good experience-based reason for centreshot being set to the conventional position and I can agree with your conclusion. I also note the use of the words 'may' and 'probably'.


Yes, very experience based. I am one to try to understand the why and how in order to fix what is going on. I have also found that sometimes all our thinking and logic turn out to be totally wrong due to something we as humans don't spot or think we are doing. Again I'm not a machine. My form is far from perfect. That is why I ended with...

If you are happy that your arrows land together, straight, there are no obvious impacts with the riser (clearance) and you are not going to shoot longer distances just yet, There's nothing wrong with shooting the rig as it is setup


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Jake Kaminski said:


> It's a centershot issue.
> 
> If both fletched and bareshafts are hitting same spot but fletched are | bare are / centershot is too far in and if it's bareshafts are \ centershot is too far out (common) hen you move youre centershot it's common to have to retune. I changed my centershot 1/8th turn it changed my tune by 4 inches at 30 m


Hi Jake, We met several years ago at Chula Vista during a L3 coaches course.

While I have little basis to affirm or dispute your position, your assessment sounds about right. This is assuming of course the spine does fall close to the rig's setup and poundage and that there are no other issues with form or tune. (clearance, torque, etc) The fact that the OP notes that his arrow is well left of the string to get this result hints to the fact that something else is amiss.

At 18M it can be hard to determine if an arrow has completed it's oscillations and is now just flying crooked. This is why I was so interested in what the pattern looked like at other distances.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

dchan said:


> Hi Jake, We met several years ago at Chula Vista during a L3 coaches course.
> 
> While I have little basis to affirm or dispute your position, your assessment sounds about right. This is assuming of course the spine does fall close to the rig's setup and poundage and that there are no other issues with form or tune. (clearance, torque, etc) The fact that the OP notes that his arrow is well left of the string to get this result hints to the fact that something else is amiss.
> 
> At 18M it can be hard to determine if an arrow has completed it's oscillations and is now just flying crooked. This is why I was so interested in what the pattern looked like at other distances.


"...just flying crooked". Hey, sounds like my arrows. Actually, I think Jake is addressing "planing" which is discussed in Rick McKiney's book. The Simple Art of Winning is the only place I've seen it mentioned, and yet recognizing planing as an arrow flight pattern would seem fundamental when tuning.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Seattlepop said:


> "...just flying crooked". Hey, sounds like my arrows. Actually, I think Jake is addressing "planing" which is discussed in Rick McKiney's book. The Simple Art of Winning is the only place I've seen it mentioned, and yet recognizing planing as an arrow flight pattern would seem fundamental when tuning.


Planing is a very high level of tuning. Rick's recommendation is unless you are shooting 1100 or better, this level of tuning is not that important. We can gain a lot more by spending the time fixing form.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

dchan said:


> Rick's recommendation is unless you are shooting 1100 or better, this level of tuning is not that important. We can gain a lot more by spending the time fixing form.


That's such a good post and so many people would ignore it, that I just had to see it again. 
It should be written over the door of every archery club.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

dchan said:


> Planing is a very high level of tuning. Rick's recommendation is unless you are shooting 1100 or better, this level of tuning is not that important. We can gain a lot more by spending the time fixing form.





whiz-Oz said:


> That's such a good post and so many people would ignore it, that I just had to see it again.
> It should be written over the door of every archery club.


Sounds like tuning snobbery to me. 

dchan, I believe you are referring to the section "Micro tuning" which does say it is for the advanced archer. However, in that section he says: "At this distance "nodal planing" should be easily noticed. *As discussed in an earlier chapter nodal planing is caused by not having the the plunger barrel aligned exactly.*" (Emphasis added). I think this is what Jake, apparently unaware that sub-1100 shooters can't understand tuning fundamentals, is referring to. Thank you, Jake and Rick.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Its not that sub 1100 shooters can't understand it.. The ROI is not very high and usually not worth the effort.... Yet...

Sorry I mis-read your intent about nodal planing and the description of arrow flight.. Arrow flight is always a good indication of proper tune.. And part of fundamental tune. How much we need to chase it and worry about it is a different matter in my opinion.

Re center shot position.. For clearance problems, yes nodal tuning and planing observation is very important. If the nodes dont pass the riser at just the right time for what ever reason, you may have impacts with the riser or poor flight

Sorry 

Re snobbery. Yeah I will play and tune all day long to get a good tune for myself. I will work with my students and athletes with tune as much as they want and am more than happy to do so.

But in the end, its still the athlete that has to perform. Given the choice between better form or better equioment in my coaching experience as well as my shooting experience, the bigger ROI is always FORM..


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

> the bigger ROI is always FORM


You always need a good foundation. The old adage that "Practice makes perfect" is incorrect, only "Perfect practice makes perfect".
Practice justs makes permenent. My two cents worth.

TAO


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

TheAncientOne said:


> You always need a good foundation. The old adage that "Practice makes perfect" is incorrect, only "Perfect practice makes perfect".
> Practice justs makes permenent. My two cents worth.
> 
> TAO


My thoughts exactly!


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

It's good to see that there are two coaches here who understand this application of practice. 
Why is it that it is such a hard thing to get archers to engage with?
The beginners want to have fun, shoot until they get reasonable and then get to a certain point where they think that because they can get to a certain skill level with a certain type of practice, don't need to change now to get any better?


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

lol, i didn't expect to start a whole conversation.

As to the earlier questions, I tuned again at 40 meters. Someone was correct in saying i was timing not tuning. At 40m my bareshafts went left, but instead of turning down the plunger stiffness i moved the centershot back to the recommended position. That worked perfectly. my arrows are tuned out to 40m now.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks for the info, Icehaven.


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