# 2015 EJN/NTC USAA Outdoor Nationals



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

The grapevine has revealed that there will be no SPECTATOR TENTS at USAA OUTDOOR NATIONALS.
Can someone please verify, or can someone please tell me what the heck we all are to do the first weekend in JULY in NORTHERN ALABAMA? 
I heard they will be setting METAL BLEACHERS up for all of us to scald our backsides on!
COME ON USA Archery, I have NEVER been to a tournament where a tent city for the archer's SUPPORT (families) is not allowed.
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?
WHAT IS THE VENUE MANAGEMENT THINKING?
Please clarify! 
I am certain there will be many people upset about this, if it is true. 
I recall a couple of years ago, when Hamilton had days where it was over 100 degrees and very humid. Spectators and even a couple of judges succumbed to the heat. 
Without spectator tents what are parents and families going to do to keep cool? What is the LOGIC behind this action?
This has got to change. I personally am very upset about this action. I will have to be at that venue all day! I am shooting as is my son, and my husband is a judge. So we are pretty much planted there with NO "HOME BASE" for our stuff. 
I'm not real happy about this news.
I have other avenues to find out if this is true, but "for discussion's sake," I'm putting it up here.
Oh, and for those of you who are thrilled with the venue, LOOK AT THE LAYOUT. Parking lot is WAY FAR AWAY from where most of us will be shooting....will there be golf cart shuttles?
Just a reminder to all, THERE ARE NO USAT SHOOTS IN THE NORTH OR EAST REGIONS....HOW MANY ARE IN THE SOUTH, AND WEST? ALL OF THEM.
Nationals FOR EONS were at Cook Field at Miami University, in Oxford Ohio. WHY can't THAT ONE USAT TOURNEY be back in the NORTH? IT SHOULD BE A PERMANENT HOME FOR NTC/EJN. Why? You may ask! Because the NORTH GENERALLY has decent weather when NTC/EJN is normally scheduled. NO chance of snow in late June/early July!
Gator Cup: FLORIDA (SOUTH)
AZ Cup: ARIZONA (WEST)
SoCal Showdown: CALIFORNIA (WEST)
Texas Shootout: TEXAS (SOUTH
2015 NTC/EJN: ALABAMA (SOUTH)
Does anyone see a corollary there? "South" and "West" seem to be common in all.

For those who don't know, here are the regions:

EAST REGION 
Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Maine,
Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia
SOUTH REGION 
Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas,
NORTH REGION 
Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, Wisconsin
WEST REGION 
Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, Wyoming

For all of us in the North and East regions who travel to tournaments...when there are many soccer fields on which to hold archery tournaments, why are there not any USAT shoots in the North OR East? Didn't there used to be the GOLD CUP in New Jersey years ago?
Sorry this rant has turned into diatribe.
Some please provide some insight on ALL? Maybe Mr.Pian?


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

To find out what the field layout is go here:

http://www.teamusa.org/usa-archery/events/national-events/outdoor-nationals

Click on "Preliminary Schedule and Map"

There it will be Note how far away parking is to competition furled for 70 & 60 M field and the practice field. Not that I don't personally need the exercise, but I adjust saying it is less than optimal.

At Joyce Park, there were TWO PARKING LOTS, one on the large field side and one on the small field side.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hi Liz, did you call Sheri? Maybe this issue isn't an issue? It's hard to imagine spectators would be made to sit in the sun at that time of year.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

My question would be about the 50M field. Since it appears to be on the south side of the parking lot, and rules dictate shooting north, will the archers be shooting back toward the parking lot and other archers/spectators? Or are they (USAA) going to have the 50M field shoot south (with safety in mind, of course)? The sun probably won't be an issue as it will be mostly directly overhead.

And yes, there doesn't appear to be room for tents unless they are all on the middle field...oops, nope, Clout is being held there. Everyone will need umbrellas or umbrella hats...

Interesting field configuration... :happy1:


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

I like everyone shooting at the same time rather than a morning and afternoon session. Rules for shooting in the north direction are for world championships. Since this is not a world championship shooting to the south would be permitted. It does appear that shade will be at a premium.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

TomB said:


> I like everyone shooting at the same time rather than a morning and afternoon session. Rules for shooting in the north direction are for world championships. Since this is not a world championship shooting to the south would be permitted. It does appear that shade will be at a premium.


agreed. of course at one JOAD nationals a few years ago, the archers were shooting west. NOt really a problem UNTIL the late elimination rounds where one of my archers (who made it to the medal rounds) and was the only left-handed archer in his division was looking at a target that had the sun appearing to be sitting right on top of the bale. 

and I agree with Tom. having one line like we used to have is the best solution but with the number of archers we have had in Hamilton, that would mean a field twice as big and twice as many bales


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I hope that's not true. Being from Virginia I'm used to the heat but not looking forward to Alabama heat in July.
I hope they have plans to have lots of paramedics on hand.
We also need a "home base" as I will have about 8 shooters on different fields.
Limbwalker, when you find out please let us know.
If I cannot take my tent it will save a lot of room in my car for medical supplies.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Perhaps USAA can put up a diagram of exactly where the tents will be allowed ?? I dare say that the issue of tents was identified almost immediately after the announcement to hold the event in Alabama was released. 

For some, this will make a big impact on which and how many family members travel to Alabama. Many people want to be near enough to watch their shooter. In our case, my wife cannot stay out in the sun for long periods of time. So, if the pop-up will be so far away as to make it impossible to be a spectator, then she will stay home and be a very unhappy camper!


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## olt66 (Dec 13, 2012)

1) Our family has made the decision to drive to Alabama based on the need for our tent, chairs, cooler, etc...
2) If allowed to set up tents, it should be in the spectator area behind our archers.
3) Also, it was customary to be able to leave our tent frames at the venue in the lowered position throughout the week.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think folks need to think a little more outside the box here. When your child plays select soccer, do they have tents for the parents/spectators? If you go to watch a minor league ballgame mid-day, are there tents for the spectators? 

Frankly, we've been a bit spoiled by being able to erect tent villages right behind the shooting line for years and years.

There will be tents for the archers, and that's what matters most.

I will look into the field layout and decipher what I can, based on what I know about the venue, but I'm not working with any information that anyone else doesn't have, save having set foot on the fields last summer.

I would suggest folks don't panic. USArchery staff have a daunting job just moving this event to this new venue. They don't need a bunch of worry warts contacting them 30 times/day with concerns born out of rumor or ignorance. 

The venue is very nice. There is TONS of parking. There is a huge play area for the youngsters and a huge concession stand/bathroom area centrally located. If nothing else, bring your Frisbees and go play the disc golf course that's in the trees. 

And who knows, it might just be cooler in Decatur July 4 than it is in Hamilton, the way it was 2 years ago.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I think folks need to think a little more outside the box here. When your child plays select soccer, do they have tents for the parents/spectators? If you go to watch a minor league ballgame mid-day, are there tents for the spectators?


True, but, then, non-family spectators actually watch minor league baseball. :embara: Archery, like fencing, has very few non-family member/team/coach spectators for national level championships.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I don't need to think outside the box, nor would I be so presumptuous to tell the hundreds of mom's, dad's, grandma's, and grandpa's to do the same. :smile: Some of these people will be spending many continuous hours and days at the field! Shelter with chairs and cooler(minimal as it may be), with an ability to support and watch their child (or children), as he/she participates, is an absolute expectation in today's world. 

As for "tents for the archers is what matters most", I strongly disagree. All those folks outside the shooting area are footing the bill. Without them there is no youth archery. They do matter, in fact the argument could be made that they might matter more than the archers under the tent. Sure the archers need shelter, but they are not the only ones.

On the bright side of things, The Weather Channel is predicting a cooler than normal summer. With some luck maybe that's an accurate forecast.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

I just got back from NOCC (National Outdoor Collegiate Championship) and this was the same situation, if not slightly worse. There were a few small metal bleachers sitting out in the sun, for spectators to sit on, and they had to watch THROUGH A FENCE that separated the archers from the spectators. Some people (presumably locals) brought easy ups for themselves but most of the spectators had flown in, and it does not make any kind of sense to bring an easy up on a plane with you. I feel like this is a huge problem, and one that I tried to address with the event coordinator to no avail. My family had to sit in the sun for hours on end, and my mother is very sensitive to sunlight so she was in long sleeves the entire time which was nearly unbearable. This is not the same as going to a ball game, most people do not pay hundreds of dollars for plane tickets and 4 days of hotel rooms and travel across the country to attend a ball game unless their family member is on the team. In addition to this I feel like it put a bunch of stress on the competitors who were watching their family suffer like this. IMO this issue needs to be addressed IMMEDIATELY. What kind of a message are we sending? This sport is already not very interesting for spectators, and now in addition to being slightly bored, they also have to suffer for up to 8 hours in direct sunight just to watch THROUGH A FENCE? Very inconsiderate.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> As for "tents for the archers is what matters most", I strongly disagree. All those folks outside the shooting area are footing the bill. Without them there is no youth archery. They do matter, in fact the argument could be made that they might matter more than the archers under the tent.


All I can say is wow. Okay then.

Comments like these raise all sorts of questions in my mind. For years now, I've wondered if we really even NEED a national championship event for bowmen, if not cubs as well, esp. if they can't be trusted to take care of themselves.

The other thought is that if mom and dad sign up and shoot, they'll have a nice shady spot under the archer's tent. Problem solved. 



> IMO this issue needs to be addressed IMMEDIATELY


so do we even know this is a REAL issue yet?


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

It was a very real issue at the USAA event I just attended so, yes. It was not even mentioned until the first day of competition.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Maybe all the spectators can just go purchase Coach Credentials and get a seat in the archers tents. That would solve the tent issue and generate revenue for USAA at $20 a head.
Of course, I say this in jest. But, in reality, it could happen.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> The other thought is that if mom and dad sign up and shoot, they'll have a nice shady spot under the archer's tent. Problem solved.


I just can't resist..........................Just think of the sitcom this could create. Mom and dad sign up to shoot for the sole purpose of sitting under the shade. They don't know how to shoot, and have no desire to learn. They shoot some ends and don't shoot other ends. Episode One..............Limbwalker :wink: is sharing a target with Billybob's grandma, and Billybob's friend's dad. The two are having an affair and Limbwalker is caught in the middle when the grandma and the dad get spyed kissing while walking behind the target to retrieve their arrows. Episode two............. I'll set the scene, all the rest is self explanatory; the moms and dads are all shooting and enjoying their time in the shade, meanwhile all the siblings who are not old enough to shoot as bowman are on their own........................ The series was cancelled before episode three could air.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> .Limbwalker is sharing a target with Billybob's grandma, and Billybob's friend's dad.


Sounds like a normal archery tournament to me. LOL. 



> so do we even know this is a REAL issue yet?


Again, I ask...

If someone has a link to information that specifically states there won't be room for spectator canopies, then please post it before the bearings burn up on the rumor mill.


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

This is reason enough to skip it entirely for those who don't have a shot of winning. Many people who don't read this board will stay away and while some may deem this a lack of character but I do not. There is no virtue in asking family members to spend a week of precious vacation time in miserable conditions.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Sounds like a normal archery tournament to me. LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And again I answer, it is already an issue if it has already happened once. We need to address it for ALL future competitions including next year's NOCC. There was no information about this at the NOCC until the day of, and then it was sprung on all of us. So if it hasn't been posted yet, it can be assumed that the same oversight will happen at all future USAA events.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Interesting debate. The current target format was changed from the "boring" 90/70/50/30 format to the "spectator friendly" 70m format with elimination rounds.

If governing bodies want to change an event format to be more "spectator friendly" then they should accommodate the spectators comfort. But if they want to change the event format to make it more interesting/challenge to the competitors, then don't say the format was changed to make it more viewer friendly.

To me it doesn't really matter. The only people that watch me shoot are those standing next to me when they want to get a good laugh at my shooting skills.

I have run robotics tournaments for 13 years with hundreds of robots, and people flying in around the world to come to, and several thousand spectators. The biggest headaches have always been dealing with the spectators and making them happy. And getting volunteers to help with the event. Without volunteers it is just a nightmare, and the bigger the crowd, the worse it gets. Far too often event organizers would prefer if no one came to watch so they can just focus on the event itself and make it an enjoyable experience for the competitors. I can truly sympathies with event organizers. They have a really tough job.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Interesting debate. The current target format was changed from the "boring" 90/70/50/30 format to the "spectator friendly" 70m format with elimination rounds.


The USAA format change comes from on high and I think WA only cares whether it is **TV** friendly - the Olympics are all about TV. Actual in person spectators are, I think, somewhat incidental to WA.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This isn't a debate. It's a rumor mill.

For pete's sake, this is one of the worst examples of AT I've seen to date.

Unless someone can produce a document from USArchery specifically stating that spectator canopies will not be allowed behind the competitor's area, all this is just speculative "sky-is-falling" nonsense.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

What would you suggest? that people brimg easy ups on the plane with them? or that they buy one for the event and just throw/give them away afterwards? both of these options seem like terrible ideas especially considering that it is not confirmed either way if shade and seating will be provided. and what about viewing from behind a fence? that doesn't seem inconsiderate to you? I am already of the mind to tell my parents not to come next year vecause it would just be a miserable experience for them. This is a simple problem with a simple solution.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I would suggest finding an actual answer before so much as spending even a second worrying about this. That's what I'd suggest.



> it is not confirmed either way if shade and seating will be provided


You hit the nail on the head.

Until and unless someone has some facts, it's a pretty pointless discussion.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Your own personal sweat lodge.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

LOL Tom.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Hey...those are my parental time out tents. Don't mess with those!!!



TomB said:


> View attachment 2233980
> 
> 
> Your own personal sweat lodge.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Hm. How to respond.

Okay...I'll address the NOCC issue first.

The field used at the NOCC was at JMU's University Park. University Park is a multi-use area that includes a 600 x 400 foot dimensioned turf field that encompasses the equivalent of 3 full sized soccer fields. From an archery perspective, you could easily put 80 bales on that field with full FITA dimensions for the lanes. They had enough safety area behind the bales so that archers could easily find their overshot arrows with ease and not worry about it cracking onto the sidewalk or slump block walls on the back side of the field.

Please note the term "turf". You are not able to stake anything on it because it's turf. Pop ups will fly away because they can't be staked down. And the concrete and angle iron weights were used first and foremost for weighing down the bales, the archer tents, the DOS stand, and the scoring tent. I was lucky to have enough concrete weights to weigh down my scoring system antenna tripods.

Second - there is a difference between a "controlled" area and an area for spectators. There needs to be separation between the controlled area and the spectator area. The fence line is a natural means to separate the controlled area and the area where spectators can sit. This allows the controlled area to handle the archers, credentialed coaches, judges, field crew, and scoring crew.

If I were to be a spectator at the NOCC, I would have taken advantage of the shaded terrace on the east side that overlooked the entire field of play. There were no restrictions on it's use nor was it blocked off so people couldn't use it. It also had modern plumbing that included showers and bathrooms instead of the portapotties on the west side of the field. It also had ramps that allowed people of limited mobility to reach the terrace and the bathrooms.

On the outside of the fence, the grassy areas there were exactly that - grass. You could put up a shade structure without any issues there.

With regards to National Outdoor - preliminary reports are showing that it may be a single AB line in the morning for all Qualification round days. The need for shade structures are kind of limited if that is the case. And, we won't know until it gets closer to the actual event itself. We don't have any sort of field of play until it gets closer to the event itself.

-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve, the fields have been designated on the aerial photo/map, so there is that much at least.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> Hm. How to respond.
> 
> Okay...I'll address the NOCC issue first.
> 
> ...


Ok, so Its true, if you had a shade structure you could have put it up. If it had been announced in advance that no shade structures would be provided for spectators, that would have allowed more people to prepare properly. For those that flew to the event however that still leaves the two options of bringing one on the plane (expensive) or buying one and leaving it behind (still not cheap and also wasteful). The pavilion you are referring to was rather far away, and I know that most spectators want to be close to the archer that they came to support. It is hard enough to see whats going on even from behind the waiting line, let alone from 100 yards away on top of a hill. 
In regards to the fence, who wants to watch an event from behind a fence? Would you go to any major sporting event that made you watch from behind a fence? Most of these family members want to take pictures of their youth on the line, pictures through a fence are sub par to put it politely.
You mentioned that the field was plenty big enough to have room to expand to 90m and still be able to safely overshoot the target without worrying about breaking arrows, which also means it was big enough to fit a row of shaded seating for spectators. 
Not enough weights? Again this is simply an oversight of the event coordinators. Not the fault of the spectators or the archers that paid $125 a piece to compete in this event. That is more than enough funding to provide extra concrete blocks, not to mention easy ups and seating for everyone attending. And if funding was a concern, why wasn't there anywhere to buy t-shirts and souveniers from the event? At the national indoor competitions this was big money maker. 
This is not a small issue. It is a major health concern. I am surprised that no one got heat stroke or sun poisoning sitting in the sun for 8 hours straight. If it is like this in Alabama in July I imagine we will not be so lucky. 
In short, take care of your audience. They are an important part of any sporting event.
Finally, I called the National event coordinator for USAA archery annd left a message asking about shade at the Nationals in Alabama. No response yet but I am hoping to hear back from her soon and I will post my findings on here to put an end to the "rumor mill" comments that seem to be downplaying the importance of this issue. I am not even going to this event, but since most of you dont seem to care about the well being of your audience, I feel obligated to care for you.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Would you go to any major sporting event that made you watch from behind a fence?


Tens of thousands of little league parents seem content to watch their kids play through a fence. 



> In short, take care of your audience. They are an important part of any sporting event.


Operative word is "part." Some should not forget that Nationals is primarily for the archers.



> to put an end to the "rumor mill" comments that seem to be downplaying the importance of this issue.





> since most of you dont seem to care about the well being of your audience, I feel obligated to care for you.


You are quite generous with your thoughts.

However, what you fail to discern is the difference between a concern for uncontrolled rumor misleading people, and genuine concern for the issue. They are not one in the same.

But I'm glad you just gave our event coordinator one more thing for her to-do list, as preparing for the largest Nationals in history probably wasn't keeping her busy enough.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Nascar has a fence and wall. And giant screens obscuring parts of the track.

I believe Nascar is the number one spectator sport in the USA. 


I have brought a chair once for my wife and kid. Never a tent or tarp etc. They watched Az cup a few times, watched Socal once. Neither complained to me.

When i was a kid growing up in the south, we played outside all day long in temps over 100.

Now i have JOAD kids that are dying if its 85 degrees outside.

I shoot in temps up to 110 in the vegas desert. 

Perhaps if its too hot for some folks, they should focus on Indoor archery and indoor Nationals. 

As Archery is a Summer games Olypmic sport, summer is hot in most places.

This is a non issue in my opinion. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, people are getting soft these days, no doubt. 

How long ago was it they shot a full fita each day?


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Oh yes, now its about how soft the archers have become. Not about subjecting their family members to 8 hour days in direct sunlight, some of which have medical conditions that make such circumstances a genuine health hazard. And your sentiment of, 'well in that case they just shouldn't come,' is spot on. Since the archery community would rather tell them how weak they are instead of having to trouble themselves with the unreasonable request of SHADE, perhaps they shouldn't. And I know, how awful of me to call the national event coordinator with a question. I am such an inconsiderate person for wanting to know whether or not an entire audience of people will be sitting in 100 degree weather for 8 hours a day. Maybe they should just stay home if they dont want to possibly get heat stroke, because if they cant sit all day and be miserable then they are too weak to enjoy this sport. You guys sound like real winners.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The majority of my response will be interspersed, but I do feel you are very fortunate that you have never been to an Olympic event. You would have no choice but to not see the Ranking Round be shot. You get to play tourist while your shooter shoots.

Disclaimer - I was on the scoring team for the 2015 NOCC and was a last minute add, but I do want to disclose that I was working the event. I was not the Tournament Director (which was officially Bob Ryder), nor was I the field manager (which was officially Andy Puckett).

-Steve



Ten_Zen said:


> Ok, so Its true, if you had a shade structure you could have put it up. If it had been announced in advance that no shade structures would be provided for spectators, that would have allowed more people to prepare properly. For those that flew to the event however that still leaves the two options of bringing one on the plane (expensive) or buying one and leaving it behind (still not cheap and also wasteful).


Putting my tournament organizer/director hat on here from other events, I have one word. Tough. It is not the venue's nor the tournament organizer's responsibility to provide seating for spectators. Outdoor, it is not the venue's nor the tournament organizer's responsibility to provide seating, shade structure, or even bathroom facilities for spectators.

Events like the Arizona Cup, SoCal Showdown, Texas Shootout, Gator Cup, and others have the ability to provide space for spectators, but they undertake no effort to provide actual seating, shade, or other items. Spectators are nice to have, and in the future, spectators will have dedicated areas to watch the elimination rounds, but for 2015 - spectator seating for ranking and elimination rounds are not a requirement in USAT or even in World Archery's World Ranking Events.



> The pavilion you are referring to was rather far away, and I know that most spectators want to be close to the archer that they came to support. It is hard enough to see whats going on even from behind the waiting line, let alone from 100 yards away on top of a hill.
> 
> In regards to the fence, who wants to watch an event from behind a fence? Would you go to any major sporting event that made you watch from behind a fence? Most of these family members want to take pictures of their youth on the line, pictures through a fence are sub par to put it politely.


Hm. Baseball/Softball, Hockey, and other sports are done where there is a separation between you and the players, especially in examples where flying objects can be a hazard. Little League and other sports don't seem to have parents all atwitter if they watch behind fencing.



> You mentioned that the field was plenty big enough to have room to expand to 90m and still be able to safely overshoot the target without worrying about breaking arrows, which also means it was big enough to fit a row of shaded seating for spectators.


FITA is 70 meters max. No one does 90 meters any more for Star FITA events. Even current venues like the Olympic Training Center and the Ben Avery Shooting Facility (SoCal and Arizona Cup, respectively) have hard fencing (AZ Cup) or bushes (SoCal) directly behind the 90 meter line. You can't say you can safely overshoot the target at 90 meters at most venues, including JMU's University Park. So, no...there was NOT enough space to put a row of shaded seating for spectators and have an adequate safety space at 70 meters. Sorry - no can do.



> Not enough weights? Again this is simply an oversight of the event coordinators. Not the fault of the spectators or the archers that paid $125 a piece to compete in this event. That is more than enough funding to provide extra concrete blocks, not to mention easy ups and seating for everyone attending.


Hm. How is it the venue's or the tournament organizer's responsibility to provide YOU concrete blocks? Sorry, I know of NO venue that will give you that entitlement. Bring your own stuff or suck it up.

And, how do you know that the $125 is adequate to provide enough funding? Do you know how much it cost to rent the facility? Do you know how much chairs for the archers cost? Or the tents that they had to rent? Or the costs for the 6 judges, the 6 scoring officials, and other expenses incurred by JMU? Judges nor scoring crews work for free...and neither will JMU give out facilities without getting a cut of the action.



> And if funding was a concern, why wasn't there anywhere to buy t-shirts and souveniers from the event? At the national indoor competitions this was big money maker.


Athletes were able to purchase T-Shirts. That was available at the athlete check in. This isn't indoor, and it costs money to create souvenirs. You run the risk of losing more money than making money. I can't even say that the NOCC broke even.



> This is not a small issue. It is a major health concern. I am surprised that no one got heat stroke or sun poisoning sitting in the sun for 8 hours straight. If it is like this in Alabama in July I imagine we will not be so lucky.


Another socially inappropriate comment. Suck it up, buttercup. On the days of setup and the ranking round, people were out for more than 8 hours outside. And I'm disobeying my transplant hematologist/oncologist's orders by being in the sun - I'm willing to get cancer again so that we have a smooth running tournament. I'm ignoring health and welfare, and I'm taking a very ill-calculated risk in doing so. But that's on my own personal responsibility and my choice.

Which bring up personal responsibility on another area. Everyone had access to weather reports. An umbrella is transportable, even on an airplane. Chairs are $9 at Walmart. People had a choice on what they could or could not bring, buy, or borrow. 

Also - I know of no archery family that would deny someone shade. Someone might have to sit on the grass, but other archery families would have been more than happy to share their popup tent to provide shade for someone.



> In short, take care of your audience. They are an important part of any sporting event.


Taking care of your archers is the first and foremost item of concern of any tournament, from the tournament organizers and tournament officials. Spectators are nice, but they aren't the end all and be all. A spectator does not affect team ranking nor an athlete's status. The athlete has the greatest effect on a tournament. 



> Finally, I called the National event coordinator for USAA archery annd left a message asking about shade at the Nationals in Alabama. No response yet but I am hoping to hear back from her soon and I will post my findings on here to put an end to the "rumor mill" comments that seem to be downplaying the importance of this issue. I am not even going to this event, but since most of you dont seem to care about the well being of your audience, I feel obligated to care for you.


As John said - thank you for adding to the plate that Sheri and others have overflowing with a bunchaton of other items. I'll point out the issue that everything has a group of choices, decisions, and responsibilities. The venue and tournament will provide what they are supposed to provide to their primary customer - the archer. It's up to you, the spectator, as to what you're willing to undertake on your own, or collectively undertake with your family and friends.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Lets be clear, I am not a spectator, I am an archer. I am more than willing to endure any and all conditions to compete. But i will definitely not recommmend that my family attend an event like this in the future. Suck it up? Really? And you call my comment socially inappropriate? Put that kind of language on the flyer of the event next time and see what kind of response you get from the many spectators who spend hundreds of dollars to come to these events. Or better yet, just tell people that shade will not be provided and let them decide for themselves whether or not it is worth it for them to come. Honestly I cant believe you people. The hostility and rudeness with which this simple request has been met with makes me wonder. How about a simple notification? "Shade and seating will not be provided for spectators." That is all that needed to be said on the flyer. Is that really so much to ask? What about charging spectators a ticket fee like most other sports? That would cover your costs for taking care of them and they would be more than happy to pay it. The ONLY reason I called Sheri was to get clarity on the issue. Am I a bad person for wanting to know what the conditions of an event are? I simply asked if shade and seating will be provided, a question that would take all of 10 seconds to answer and should be put on the event information anyway. Lastly, 400ft is roughly 122meters so yes there was room for an additional 8 feet of seating, which could have been furnished by simply moving the bleachers inside the venue. I really don't understand what the big deal is, or where all this machismo BS is coming from. All people want is to be well informed before an event so that they can properly plan. Calling them "soft" telling them to "suck it up" and basically saying that spectators arent important is a ridiculous response to a simple request.


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## JoAnn (Jul 21, 2011)

Is the issue that you have to provide your own shade and seating, like at EJN in Ohio, or that there isn't a place to put up a canopy within viewing whatever field the athlete us shooting on?


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

I told you John. We have become a nation of narcissists. This may in fact be the best venue for archery, NTC and EJN nationals I have seen in my 20 years of coaching (I loved Chula Vista the year JOAD nationals were there. But, even then there were specator restrictions and lots of whinning.) I have paid to see my children shoot in international competitions as a spectator where binoculars were what had to be used to observe the shot and where the arrows landed. I have been through metal detectors and had my back pack inspected to enter venues. From the aerial picture with this field layout there appears to be nice areas on the fence perimeter for setting up a chair and observing. I think the archers are going to have a marvelous event. And with an early start, potential single line, everyone may be off the field by 1 or 2.


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

It puts shooters from up north, who rarely if ever experience these conditions, at a distinct disadvantage but thems the breaks.

BTW - a comparison to NASCAR isn't meaningful since many people go to races without any expectation of seeing a single car drive a single lap. It's more like Woodstock - all about the experience of being there.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

I believe it would be nice if the spectators had a place that was shady to watch their archer or read a book. I suppose this could be an attempt to keep parents separated from their archers and coaches. It could be that it could cost you a fee to watch from a shady protected area. It could be that you had to buy only the refreshments and water supplied by the local vendors. It could be that you are restricted to only one field while competition is going on. It could be that USA archery only hopes elite archers show up. It could be that this event could move someplace else after this year or next...It could be archers are soft,,it could be some are tough as nails,,,it could be that visiting archers from other countries will shoot better than some of us,,it could be hot and muggy,,,there are many could be's,,,,
All I know is that I can't do both this and Seniors from a financial point and I choose Minnesota. It could be cold ,rainy or hot.

If there are changes such as tents etc,,,than USA should say up front ,,so people are prepared. Any local rules of the facility should be published for all to see. Hopefully it will be a great match and no one will be hurt or suffer from heat or weather related incidents. And a little walk from your car to the event is good for you.[could be]


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ten_Zen said:


> Oh yes, now its about how soft the archers have become. Not about subjecting their family members to 8 hour days in direct sunlight, some of which have medical conditions that make such circumstances a genuine health hazard. And your sentiment of, 'well in that case they just shouldn't come,' is spot on. Since the archery community would rather tell them how weak they are instead of having to trouble themselves with the unreasonable request of SHADE, perhaps they shouldn't. And I know, how awful of me to call the national event coordinator with a question. I am such an inconsiderate person for wanting to know whether or not an entire audience of people will be sitting in 100 degree weather for 8 hours a day. Maybe they should just stay home if they dont want to possibly get heat stroke, because if they cant sit all day and be miserable then they are too weak to enjoy this sport. You guys sound like real winners.


I hear Humbolt County has some great weather in July.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TomB said:


> I told you John. We have become a nation of narcissists. This may in fact be the best venue for archery, NTC and EJN nationals I have seen in my 20 years of coaching (I loved Chula Vista the year JOAD nationals were there. But, even then there were specator restrictions and lots of whinning.) I have paid to see my children shoot in international competitions as a spectator where binoculars were what had to be used to observe the shot and where the arrows landed. I have been through metal detectors and had my back pack inspected to enter venues. From the aerial picture with this field layout there appears to be nice areas on the fence perimeter for setting up a chair and observing. I think the archers are going to have a marvelous event. And with an early start, potential single line, everyone may be off the field by 1 or 2.


I totally agree. 

What I cannot tolerate is whining about the unknown. Fear mongering is one way to put it. I don't want this to be a N/S issue, but frankly, what are Southerners told when they find themselves up Nort' in the winter? 10 below? No big deal - get used to it. LOL. 

Again, what was the temperature on the field in Ohio 2 years ago? 100 degrees, right? 

Folks need to just calm down and wait to see what happens. NWS is predicting a "much" cooler than average summer in the central U.S. anyway, and in Northern AL it could very well be highs in the 80's. We all just need to wait and see. The pre-emptive whining is just more than I can stand. 

Tom, the reason we've become a nation of whiners is because there are more public opportunities to whine than ever before, and whining is rewarded like never before.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

So im unclear John, you dont want people "whining" about the unknown and yet you chide me for calling the one person who could clear this up for all of us and asking her directly? So your official position is 'dont complain until you know for sure, but dont bother our event staff with questions either'? So what do you think we should do? Not say anything and just go to the event with no idea what to expect? Wait for someone to address a problem that they may not even know is a problem because no one has brought it to their attention? Or are you just trying to feel superior by putting everyone else down for having legitimate concerns?


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I hear Humbolt County has some great weather in July.


We are already working on hosting events in the upcoming years. And yes we have fantastic, family friendly weather year round.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> are you just trying to feel superior by putting everyone else down for having legitimate concerns


That's probably it.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

Personally I abhor the "great tent land grab" at tournaments. Large pop-up tents with maybe a person or two sitting under them while others who may want to see the archers forced to go further and further back. I have a picture from Outdoor Nats last year with a guy on the front row with a nice carpet and desk, typing away on his computer under his huge tent. I haven't seen much sharing going on.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

saw this on facebook and somehow it seems to apply here:

THESE ARE ACTUAL COMPLAINTS RECEIVED BY "THOMAS COOK VACATIONS" FROM DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS:

1. "They should not allow topless sunbathing on the beach. It was very distracting for my husband who just wanted to relax."

2. "On my holiday to Goa in India, I was disgusted to find that almost every restaurant served curry. I don't like spicy food."

3. "We went on holiday to Spain and had a problem with the taxi drivers as they were all Spanish."

4. "We booked an excursion to a water park but no-one told us we had to bring our own swimsuits and towels. We assumed it would be included in the price."

5. "The beach was too sandy. We had to clean everything when we returned to our room."

6. "We found the sand was not like the sand in the brochure. Your brochure shows the sand as white but it was more yellow."

7. "It's lazy of the local shopkeepers in Puerto Vallartato close in the afternoons. I often needed to buy things during 'siesta' time -- this should be banned."

8. "No-one told us there would be fish in the water. The children were scared."

9. "Although the brochure said that there was a fully equipped kitchen, there was no egg-slicer in the drawers."

10. "I think it should be explained in the brochure that the local convenience store does not sell proper biscuits like custard creams or ginger nuts."

11. "The roads were uneven and bumpy, so we could not read the local guide book during the bus ride to the resort. Because of this, we were unaware of many things that would have made our holiday more fun."

12. "It took us nine hours to fly home from Jamaica to England. It took the Americans only three hours to get home. This seems unfair."

13. "I compared the size of our one-bedroom suite to our friends' three-bedroom and ours was significantly smaller."

14. "The brochure stated: 'No hairdressers at the resort.' We're trainee hairdressers and we think they knew and made us wait longer for service."

15. "When we were in Spain, there were too many Spanish people there. The receptionist spoke Spanish, the food was Spanish. No one told us that there would be so many foreigners."

16. "We had to line up outside to catch the boat and there was no air-conditioning."

17. "It is your duty as a tour operator to advise us of noisy or unruly guests before we travel."

18. "I was bitten by a mosquito. The brochure did not mention mosquitoes."

19. "My fiancée and I requested twin-beds when we booked, but instead we were placed in a room with a king bed. We now hold you responsible and want to be re-reimbursed for the fact that I became pregnant. This would not have happened if you had put us in the room that we booked."


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## Puckett (Apr 27, 2006)

Ten_Zen said:


> I feel like this is a huge problem, and one that I tried to address with the event coordinator to no avail. My family had to sit in the sun for hours on end, and my mother is very sensitive to sunlight so she was in long sleeves the entire time which was nearly unbearable.


Just so we are clear on this one particular point. You in no way attempted to address this with the event coordinator. (ME) You posted your complaint to Facebook and I invited you to talk to me on the field. You did not follow though. Therefore, you do not have a leg to stand on at this point for any of your complaints. Addressing them at a time when they can be corrected and/or explained to was the only proper course of action.


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

Waikiki. I propose that all tournaments be held in Waikiki. Then nobody will care if they can see their family and friends shoot.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dmaxdmax said:


> Waikiki. I propose that all tournaments be held in Waikiki. Then nobody will care if they can see their family and friends shoot.


Bwahahaha.



> You in no way attempted to address this with the event coordinator. (ME) You posted your complaint to Facebook and I invited you to talk to me on the field. You did not follow though.


Whiners seldom do. It takes all the fun out of whining.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tjk009 said:


> Personally I abhor the "great tent land grab" at tournaments. Large pop-up tents with maybe a person or two sitting under them while others who may want to see the archers forced to go further and further back. I have a picture from Outdoor Nats last year with a guy on the front row with a nice carpet and desk, typing away on his computer under his huge tent. I haven't seen much sharing going on.


Some of the worst behavior I've ever seen on an archery field was behind the spectator line.

A few years ago in Ohio, the West group of tents chose to set up AGAINST the spectator line, even though all the way down the field, everyone else had left a 12' wide walkway between the ropes and the tent line. The designated walkway at the West end - the end where most of the parking was - was effectively blocked off by these 7 or 8 families, so everyone was having to stop, turn around, and go back through the walkways between tents or through people's tents.

I pointed this out to a few of the folks under those tents, and they just stared at me and did nothing. The second time I explained the problem (as if I had to) to two of the families, and one of their teenage DAUGHTERS told me to mind my own business and they were doing nothing wrong. The parents just sat there and watched while she talked to me like the brat she was. 

So I went and found Darrell Pace who was running the field layout, and he soon came over and corrected the problem. After that, I got glares from everyone under those last few tents for the rest of the event as if I had tattled on them or something. They had absolutely no consideration for the hundreds of people they were forcing to walk around the long way to get to the parking lot. It was ridiculous.

No, the "tent city" nonsense is something I can surely do without. I'm looking forward to being an archer at this event, and enjoying the camraderie of my fellow archers under the competitor's tents. 

All my JOAD/AA families will be as well informed as possible with ACTUAL FACTS before we go, and should be prepared no matter the circumstances. 

I'm pretty confident they will be, as whiners don't last long in our club. 

John


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Dmaxdmax said:


> It puts shooters from up north, who rarely if ever experience these conditions, at a distinct disadvantage but thems the breaks.
> 
> BTW - a comparison to NASCAR isn't meaningful since many people go to races without any expectation of seeing a single car drive a single lap. It's more like Woodstock - all about the experience of being there.


its a perfect comparison. The stands are usually metal, there is no cover for 75% of the stands, its either scorching hot or raining. The people are not close to the action. They sit there for hours ( 4 to 8 on a given day). 

You're in Charlotte. You should know. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, and they PAY for the privliege to do that. I don't recall anyone having to pay to watch Olympic archers shoot matches at the US Open.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> its a perfect comparison. The stands are usually metal, there is no cover for 75% of the stands, its either scorching hot or raining. The people are not close to the action. They sit there for hours ( 4 to 8 on a given day).
> 
> You're in Charlotte. You should know.
> 
> Chris


Been to both a NASCAR and USA Archery Nationals. I hope USA archery does not become NASCAR. Thankfully,,they are not even close to being the same


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Dmaxdmax said:


> Waikiki. I propose that all tournaments be held in Waikiki. Then nobody will care if they can see their family and friends shoot.


2016 Waikiki
2017 Cape Cod


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Paula said:


> Been to both a NASCAR and USA Archery Nationals. I hope USA archery does not become NASCAR. Thankfully,,they are not even close to being the same


Don't be a hater.  LOL.

I'm sure USArchery and their sponsors wouldn't mind if it became more like Nascar.  Not to mention the "bow drivers."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Casualfoto said:


> 2016 Waikiki
> 2017 Cape Cod


2018 Key West


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## olt66 (Dec 13, 2012)

Tents, seating, bathrooms aside... Why do some feel it necessary to keep referring to others on this board or within our archery ranks as whiners or soft or whatever derogatory terms have been used in this thread... it's just not needed ladies & gentlemen. And before someone tells me to "suck it up buttercup"... I'll have you know that I will gladly suck it up as long as it's *personally* served to me, and I strongly doubt that will be happening! 

Back on topic... 
I won't wait until we check in to learn that our tent isn't welcome. If it isn't welcome at this venue, that would be pertinent information. Our family will adjust our plans accordingly. The planning is the true issue to our klan. If there's no place to put our tent, then we won't take it. If we don't take it, then we won't have everyone within our family with us. If then, it's only me & Katie... we're going to fly down vs. drive & that needs to be planned for. I'd like for someone in the know to respond here or send word back to here as to whether or not the spectators will be able to set up our tents and if so, where would that be. And just to be clear, I never expected to be provided with a shaded spectator area though that would be very convenient for us. This thread has been ongoing for over 24 hrs now, you have to think that someone in the know has seen or heard of this discussion. They say that no news is good news but I don't get that feeling on this one. And I also see the point of others here who don't like the tent cities. I for one like having a place to call home base while at a tournament... just my .02 cents. 

All I'm looking for is clarification & civility within our ranks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Why do some feel it necessary to keep referring to others on this board or within our archery ranks as whiners or soft


It's only necessary when some continually choose to be whiners or soft.  Otherwise, it would just be rude and inappropriate. 



> I won't wait until we check in to learn that our tent isn't welcome.


Nobody should. They should first read all the available information, and look at the maps of the venues. 

There's a good chance you won't be whining prematurely either, based on your statement above.



> This thread has been ongoing for over 24 hrs now, you have to think that someone in the know has seen or heard of this discussion.


Don't count on it. They are probably busy wrapping up from NOCC, handling details with the World Cup event, and preparing for Nationals. 

I really don't think most of the membership understands how much there is for the USArchery staff to do every year, and how many members they respond to personally.



> They say that no news is good news but I don't get that feeling on this one


Why would you? This is AT after all.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Puckett said:


> Just so we are clear on this one particular point. You in no way attempted to address this with the event coordinator. (ME) You posted your complaint to Facebook and I invited you to talk to me on the field. You did not follow though. Therefore, you do not have a leg to stand on at this point for any of your complaints. Addressing them at a time when they can be corrected and/or explained to was the only proper course of action.


You responded to my post, indicating that you received the message and had time to consider it, but rather than attempting to resolve the issue in your free time and on a platform that would have allowed everyone to receive the message simultaneously, you asked me to approach you on the field at a time that would have been inconvenient for both of us. I did try to find you before the shooting began and you were VERY busy driving all around setting things up and so forth. An announcement was made re-iterating the position of the staff that spectators were not allowed into the event, and I took that to be the final word on the matter. I am not going to interrupt my own shooting time to hunt you down to have an argument with you, that would only serve to stress me out on the line and inconvenience you further. I did what I thought was the MOST appropriate thing, attempt to speak to you in a way that was more convenient for everyone. You could have very easily explained your position there, but instead you took that opportunity to tell me how innapropriate it was. Sorry but I disagree, I still think that it is the most appropriate and effective way to communicate concerns to the relevant audience.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Having said above how busy our USArchery staff is these days, this is yet another good example of why USArchery needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up, and who it's customers are. 

Being split between preparing for professional and international events like the World Cup, World Championships and Olympics, and also trying to take care of the grassroots base membership will eventually cause USArchery to fail at both if they aren't careful. 

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ten_Zen said:


> You responded to my post, indicating that you received the message and had time to consider it, but rather than attempting to resolve the issue in your free time and on a platform that would have allowed everyone to receive the message simultaneously, you asked me to approach you on the field at a time that would have been inconvenient for both of us. I did try to find you before the shooting began and you were VERY busy driving all around setting things up and so forth. An announcement was made re-iterating the position of the staff that spectators were not allowed into the event, and I took that to be the final word on the matter. I am not going to interrupt my own shooting time to hunt you down to have an argument with you, that would only serve to stress me out on the line and inconvenience you further. I did what I thought was the MOST appropriate thing, attempt to speak to you in a way that was more convenient for everyone. You could have very easily explained your position there, but instead you took that opportunity to tell me how innapropriate it was. Sorry but I disagree, I still think that it is the most appropriate and effective way to communicate concerns to the relevant audience.


Ten, I hope someday you look back on these posts after having run tournaments for say, 10 or 20 years.


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

you don't have to look ahead 10-20 years. Look back 30-40 years how George Helwig and Clayton Shenk ran things.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

LongTime said:


> you don't have to look ahead 10-20 years. Look back 30-40 years how George Helwig and Clayton Shenk ran things.


Yea, but folks were much tougher back then. I mean, people brought sack lunches and drank from garden hoses in those days. :mg:

Sometimes, I have no idea how the human race still exists. :sad:


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## JoAnn (Jul 21, 2011)

olt66 said:


> Tents, seating, bathrooms aside... Why do some feel it necessary to keep referring to others on this board or within our archery ranks as whiners or soft or whatever derogatory terms have been used in this thread... it's just not needed ladies & gentlemen. And before someone tells me to "suck it up buttercup"... I'll have you know that I will gladly suck it up as long as it's *personally* served to me, and I strongly doubt that will be happening!
> 
> Back on topic...
> I won't wait until we check in to learn that our tent isn't welcome. If it isn't welcome at this venue, that would be pertinent information. Our family will adjust our plans accordingly. The planning is the true issue to our klan. If there's no place to put our tent, then we won't take it. If we don't take it, then we won't have everyone within our family with us. If then, it's only me & Katie... we're going to fly down vs. drive & that needs to be planned for. I'd like for someone in the know to respond here or send word back to here as to whether or not the spectators will be able to set up our tents and if so, where would that be. And just to be clear, I never expected to be provided with a shaded spectator area though that would be very convenient for us. This thread has been ongoing for over 24 hrs now, you have to think that someone in the know has seen or heard of this discussion. They say that no news is good news but I don't get that feeling on this one. And I also see the point of others here who don't like the tent cities. I for one like having a place to call home base while at a tournament... just my .02 cents.
> ...



Mike, I agree 100% as I am in the same situation. Knowing what is or is not allowed does determine how and who will be heading to Alabama.


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## Dmaxdmax (May 4, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Yea, but folks were much tougher back then. I mean, people brought sack lunches and drank from garden hoses in those days. :mg:
> 
> Sometimes, I have no idea how the human race still exists. :sad:


Nowadays you have to make sure the garden hoses are gluten free! (Like they are in Waikiki)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dmaxdmax said:


> Nowadays you have to make sure the garden hoses are gluten free! (Like they are in Waikiki)


Oh the horror! 



> Patty Davis, a spokeswoman for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, said that the commission would never recommend that any consumer drink from a garden hose.
> 
> “The real health concern here is bacterial contamination,” she said. “Garden hoses sit outside and bake in the sun. Anything can get in them, and it’s a perfect environment for all sorts of microbial communities.”


How on earth did we ever survive direct sunlight and garden hose water...


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## PaulME (Jun 11, 2014)

lets not forget remote car starters and electric seat warmers.....
No WiFi or cell phone coverage - life can't possibly exist.
My daughter (college age) has a saying for this stuff - first world problems......

Paul


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

first world, white people problems. 

Your daughter is right, Paul.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think I may have achieved a whole new level of insensitivity today. 

Yay me.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I received an email from someone last night pointing out this thread. I have to say, there are a whole lot of chicken littles in one little tiny itty bitty place! And no, this is an absolute rumor. Pure hogwash, bs, swill, nonsense, balderdash, baloney, & rubbish. I think that just about covers it, IMHO. 

:nono:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Some of the worst behavior I've ever seen on an archery field was behind the spectator line.
> 
> A few years ago in Ohio, the West group of tents chose to set up AGAINST the spectator line, even though all the way down the field, everyone else had left a 12' wide walkway between the ropes and the tent line. The designated walkway at the West end - the end where most of the parking was - was effectively blocked off by these 7 or 8 families, so everyone was having to stop, turn around, and go back through the walkways between tents or through people's tents.
> 
> ...


you should have told me. Darrell is way too nice compared to me:wink:


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

TomB said:


> I like everyone shooting at the same time rather than a morning and afternoon session. Rules for shooting in the north direction are for world championships. *Since this is not a world championship shooting to the south would be permitted. *It does appear that shade will be at a premium.


Good to know. And may be helpful if the rising sun is somewhat behind you instead of in your face as it was at the Nationals/Open a couple years ago in Hamilton. Made it tough with scopes, lenses and glasses.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Ten_Zen, Obviouisly SOMEONE did not read your post CORRECTLY!



Ten_Zen said:


> And again I answer, it is already an issue if it has already happened once. We need to address it for ALL future competitions including next year's NOCC. There was no information about this at the NOCC until the day of, and then it was sprung on all of us. So if it hasn't been posted yet, it can be assumed that the same oversight will happen at all future USAA events.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> I received an email from someone last night pointing out this thread. I have to say, there are a whole lot of chicken littles in one little tiny itty bitty place! And no, this is an absolute rumor. Pure hogwash, bs, swill, nonsense, balderdash, baloney, & rubbish. I think that just about covers it, IMHO.
> 
> :nono:


:darkbeer:


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Oh the horror!
> 
> 
> 
> How on earth did we ever survive direct sunlight and garden hose water...


I'm pretty sure that after baking in the sun for hours that the heat has killed off all the bacteria. Plus most cities add enough chlorine to chemically balance a large swimming pool.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob Furman said:


> I'm pretty sure that after baking in the sun for hours that the heat has killed off all the bacteria. Plus most cities add enough chlorine to chemically balance a large swimming pool.


 No doubt.

And seatbelts. Don't even get me started on seatbelts!


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Mike, 
You are correct all the derogatory comments and such really leaves me breathless. I thought we all were better than that! Was I wrong? 
I merely wanted to find out if this was an issue, hence my posting it here.
Sorry to say, this discussion has gone south and I may just have to take it down.
Civility is a must in our small archery family.
If spectators are not welcome, then they should announce that. See how many shooters they get in the JOAD ranks.
I don't really care either way, I can bring a huge golf umbrella, because I'm betting it might just rain on us, and I'll be fine. Big golf umbrellas make a great shade when hot, though it is a bit of a pain to hold it all day.
I'm coaching too, so I'll be fine. I'm shooting my beloved barebow too, so I'll be fine.
But for the comment that this will be the biggest and best NTC/EJN yet, I really have to wait and see on that. Hamilton was a pretty good, well organized, and had record turnouts. Maybe it is because it is yet another USAT shoot that is in the SOUTH. I don't think the turn out will be there, but I will be there, as will my son and my husband. All of us have a place in the shade.
I want those support people for our JOADs and for the adults who make a "vacation" out of the week to be as comfortable as they were in Hamilton and ALL the other NTC/EJN tournaments we have competed in since 1995. There has ALWAYS been spectator tents...and by the way, if you don't have a tent and ASK to share a corner, MOST people will say sure. I did that last year at SoCal, and was granted permission by Mr. Nichols!
So stop with the condescension and let's see if we can come up with a solution.
I will email the National Events Coordinator this evening and see what the deal is, and the reason behind the decision.
Obviously Ten_Zen had stated that, there seemed to him, to be the same issue at JMU. I'll not rehash. I have an archer who went there, and her mother went as well, I can ask them what the situation was at JMU.
In closing, I never really post too much here on AT because of this very reason. 
I guess I opened Pandora's box.
I will post the results of my findings if there are any. Will leave it up for a day or so, and then will take down this sordid thread. Too bad it went south. Those to blame know who you are...Sad really sad.





olt66 said:


> Tents, seating, bathrooms aside... Why do some feel it necessary to keep referring to others on this board or within our archery ranks as whiners or soft or whatever derogatory terms have been used in this thread... it's just not needed ladies & gentlemen. And before someone tells me to "suck it up buttercup"... I'll have you know that I will gladly suck it up as long as it's *personally* served to me, and I strongly doubt that will be happening!
> 
> Back on topic...
> I won't wait until we check in to learn that our tent isn't welcome. If it isn't welcome at this venue, that would be pertinent information. Our family will adjust our plans accordingly. The planning is the true issue to our klan. If there's no place to put our tent, then we won't take it. If we don't take it, then we won't have everyone within our family with us. If then, it's only me & Katie... we're going to fly down vs. drive & that needs to be planned for. I'd like for someone in the know to respond here or send word back to here as to whether or not the spectators will be able to set up our tents and if so, where would that be. And just to be clear, I never expected to be provided with a shaded spectator area though that would be very convenient for us. This thread has been ongoing for over 24 hrs now, you have to think that someone in the know has seen or heard of this discussion. They say that no news is good news but I don't get that feeling on this one. And I also see the point of others here who don't like the tent cities. I for one like having a place to call home base while at a tournament... just my .02 cents.
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and the reason behind the decision.


So Liz, has there been a decision? 



> If spectators are not welcome, then they should announce that.


I agree, but nowhere have I seen that they announced that. 

If you have a source, then please share so all may be informed equally.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I am in the throws of finding out if there has been a decision for or against spectator/family tents on this fields/venue.
An email has been sent. As I stated....I WILL POST MY FINDINGS RIGHT HERE ON AT TO PUT AN END TO THIS IDIOCY.
I surely did NOT expect all the bashing that has happened, partly in your posts! Honestly John, we are working towards a goal of having a great tournament experience, and ALL I wanted to see is what people knew, or if this was the case, how many people would be upset by it. I know there are some who won't come due to this factor.

I WILL POST MY FINDINGS WHEN I GET THEM. Please be patient for the answer. I'm sure SoCal is on the horizon, and then NTC/EJN. 

Didn't mean to stir up trouble. When a question is posed, especially on AT, it is meant for discussion, not bashing people, or telling us we are weak, soft, or any other derogatory remark. I'm very upset about some of the postings. Makes me really wonder WTH is going on.

We worked together on a different committee, for the better of barebow, and this thread really upset me, and I STARTED IT to see what would happen. 
Should have known better...What was I thinking?





limbwalker said:


> So Liz, has there been a decision?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Liz, obviously you know by now that AT isn't the place to come for answers on topics like this. 

You can't throw a bone like this:



> *The grapevine* has revealed that there will be no SPECTATOR TENTS at USAA OUTDOOR NATIONALS.
> Can someone please verify, or can someone please tell me what the heck we all are to do the first weekend in JULY in NORTHERN ALABAMA?
> I heard they will be setting METAL BLEACHERS up for all of us to scald our backsides on!
> COME ON USA Archery, I have NEVER been to a tournament where a tent city for the archer's SUPPORT (families) is not allowed.
> ...


out on the forum here and expect it to not create a stir. 

Some folks here (need I name names?) cannot help but jump on the rumor and speculation. In fact, they wait for this!

Whenever a real question like this comes up, it should be directed at those who have answers. Nobody here has those answers, which is why it turned into the cluster that it did. 

The whining was not yours, but it was over the top, which is why some of us chose to respond. 

I've seen the hours you put in. I know the work you do to serve others. Many here don't, but some do. 

What some of us cannot tolerate is the whining by those who are professional whiners, and who will do nothing to learn the facts, much less go out of their way to help others the way you do.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I get it john. Thanks for your kind words. 
And, I like throwing bones out from time to time, because then the ignorance and TOTAL LACK OF EXPERIENCE comes into the picture. Alas this thread may be the last I post.




limbwalker said:


> Liz, obviously you know by now that AT isn't the place to come for answers on topics like this.
> 
> You can't throw a bone like this:
> 
> ...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

The only reason these threads get out of hand is because you all are so passionate about what you do.
Sometimes we don't all see eye to eye but in the end we all want basically the same thing.
What's best for our JOAD kids and our programs.
I, myself have started some controversial threads that I've later regretted.
But I probably won't stop.
You all have been a great help to me on several occasions.
Sometimes its good to just vent.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

As for the JMU event, it is true, no shade or protection for spectators and support. Our lone participant was there with mom. Mom was her ONLY support, and mom had to sit in the bleachers, in the rain and sun. Said it "sucked" exact word. Said there was one lone spectator who found a level spot and erected a tent which could not be staked due to walkway width. So, I suppose this may just start to be the norm? If it is, there may be less and less spectators (family support) which could cause less participation, which could cause this to become elite archers only event, which may be what they want? Archery is one of the few sports you don't have to qualify for nationals. Olympic trap you must qualify. Silly stuff like band, choir and cheer you have to qualify to go to sectionals, regionals, then nationals. I'd imagine the other Olmpic disciplines are the same, you must qualify for nationals...if wrong, PLEASE STATE KINDLY the specs for competing in a national event.
I'm still awaiting an answer, on 2015 NTC/EJN spectator observation tent situation...please stand by...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I can see your point! And YES the main reason I posted this was to see how many others didn't know what MIGHT BE expected as far as shade/shelter for their support team and or family. What gets me is all the people from Chinese Taipei who invade the archer's tents, and set up housekeeping there. THAT REALLY IRKS ME, and believe me, when I say, I is ALL ON THE JOAD SIDE of the field.
😃 thanks for your words, because you are correct, I was venting my frustration for all the parents considering coming for EJN. If they cannot provide home base for their archer, they may not want to come...then begs the question...do we separate out NTC and EJN and go double expense on tournament travel and tournament staffing expenses....which does get QUITE COSTLY.




XForce Girl said:


> The only reason these threads get out of hand is because you all are so passionate about what you do.
> Sometimes we don't all see eye to eye but in the end we all want basically the same thing.
> What's best for our JOAD kids and our programs.
> I, myself have started some controversial threads that I've later regretted.
> ...


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