# Michele Frangelli vs. The Flat Bellies



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve, I wouldn't leave out the Korean men either. Oh is not exactly slim. These days, neither is IM. And although pretty fit, I wouldn't put Brady in the "flat belly" category either.

So there's at least 5 world class champion archers who won't soon be confused with track and field athletes...

Fitness training is advocated at the OTC, and honestly, it's difficult NOT to do a lot of fitness training there since you're surrounded by so many incredibly fit athletes and have those workout facilities just 100 yards from your apartment. You also have very healthy food choices every single meal.

I can't speak to the training methods of any other country, but I know our guys and gals at the OTC are encouraged to be very fit, and they are. Joe Fanchin put on about 25 lbs. of muscle while there.

There is strong, and then there is archery strong. As you know, the muscles used for archery simply are not used for many other things. This is why relatively thin guys like me can shoot 60+ lb. longbows while much bigger guys will struggle pulling 40 lbs. through a clicker. 

Since we've gone away from 144-arrow rounds, I think overall fitness just isn't as important as it used to be. It doesn't really take that much endurance to score 72 arrows over the course of 3 hours. 

I shot on the same bale with Frangilli in 2004 at the Turkish Grand Prix event. He was coming off an illness and was very thin. Almost unrecognizeable. He didn't shoot that well in the ranking round, but true to form, ended up winning the OR. 

Archery is mostly a mental game. He proves this over and over again.

Our U.S. archers have some room for improvement when it comes to this aspect of the game. 

John


----------



## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

" You also have very healthy food choices every single meal." Ya, I thought I would die during my week at the OTC in Colorado Springs a year ago as a "coach observer" during a JDT camp. I'm sure the food was GREAT for the athletes but for this "old" guy, the selection and flavors offered were worse than hospital food. Micky D and BK were the order of the day on the trip home!!:darkbeer::spam4: I'm certainly not a "flatbelly" but at 65 have no "gut" either.:wink:


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Of course, I had an agenda when I posted my "question". One, speaking as a "not nearly in fighting shape" 63 year old whose 21 year old flat belly son kids him - I was justifying my own self. Two, I was pleased a style other than Korean derived won - even though not by much. Kudos to the US team. I like Jim Furyk's style of golf for the same reason - I don't want "collective thought" to dominate the day. The Golf Channel Fherty makes this point also - how the great golfers had a variety of methods of getting the ball in the hole and today, now most young golfers (read archers) are clones of one another - I don't like homogenization in most areas.


----------



## zal (May 1, 2007)

tigersdad said:


> Two, I was pleased a style other than Korean derived won - even though not by much.


Italians do have a korean coach...


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Does anyone know if there is an electronic version that is available for purchase?


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Two, I was pleased a style other than Korean derived won - even though not by much


Steve, they have a Korean coach, but the three Italian men could not possibly have more different and unique styles of shooting. Galiazzo and Frangilli are home-brewed shooters that follow no mould. 

Having said that, our own head coach Ki Sik Lee often used Frangilli as a great example of form in his seminars. Why wouldn't he? He had seen Frangilli perform in person for many, many years and knew what that style was capable of under pressure.

John


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

"they have a Korean coach" - Ouch, is this where I where I stalk, shoot and prepare a dish of crow for supper? LOL. Where is the ghost of Howard Hill when I need him... Well, credit to the Korean coaches and their shooters. I still stand by my dislike of collectivism and clonism (?).


----------



## zal (May 1, 2007)

There's always discussions about form, but in the end, even if they look different outwards, most of those things that matter are uniform in all top archers.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

zal said:


> There's always discussions about form, but in the end, even if they look different outwards, most of those things that matter are uniform in all top archers.


True.

As in the golf swing, there are certain things common to every successful archer.

John


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> True.
> 
> As in the golf swing, there are certain things common to every successful archer.
> 
> John



I'd like to get that book!


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Having said that, our own head coach Ki Sik Lee often used Frangilli as a great example of form in his seminars. Why wouldn't he? He had seen Frangilli perform in person for many, many years and knew what that style was capable of under pressure.
> 
> John


'Can't argue with Frangilli's results. But watching the slow contortions as he anchors his thumb behind his neck is so different, and takes so long I just have to wonder if the technique is a key to his success or just an idiosyncrasy. We've seen a number of different forms do well at the Olympics–how much is really one form over another and how much is just talent and obsessive practice?


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I find myself watching Van der Ven from the Netherlands a lot on replay now....if I'm going to emulate a style, his is quite smooth....


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott. I disagree. Van der Ven is not what I would describe as smooth. Lots of head movement on release. Try watching the young Alvarez from Mexico. He will be #1 in the world at some point, I predict.



> I just have to wonder if the technique is a key to his success


The single greatest key to success at the top level in this sport is a great mental game. He has one. That comes from two things IMO. Early success when he was young, and lots and lots of experience. Of all the teams, the Italians had more "been there, done that" than any other team.

John


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I'd like to get that book!


..."the art of repetition" by simon needham is a good book in that mold...

ALL elite archers(1350+) have great technique and most good archers(1300+) also have the technique portion pretty much handled..

it's the repetition part--specially in high stress situations-- that separates them and a lot of that is between the ears and in the heart!!!


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

So I'm trying to figure something out related to this repetition of form...and this may need it's own thread to digest...

Should I try to "pose" my form like the many great shooters out there or as a specific method may suggest....OR

Should I try to shoot naturally as my body accepts it and find a method or shooter style to follow?

There are pieces that as suggested, every great archer will do...but it would seem that they all start with those blocks and then make it their own as opposed to, "shoot like this method requires...."


----------



## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

The whole thing about archery is the consistent repetition. Whatever your body takes to easiest will be the most consistent form for you.
It's what you'll resort to when tired or under pressure.
I've tried different ways to stand, to draw, to hook, to grip etc. None were wrong but some suited me better or were more comfortable.
If the Olympics thought us anything, it should be that there is no (ahem) best way but ways that suit the individuals.

Starting out, the method taught will be the one that is easiest and most likely to suit most people but once the basics are there, and provided the vital pieces are there, then you have to make your form your own.

I have looked at the form of Mark Applegate, Ty Pelfry, Rod Jenkins, Jim Powell and Guiseppe Seimandi to see how they do it. I've learnt from them all.
My own style probably resembles most one or other but it isn't identical to that of any of them.

In the end you've got to do it your way..............now all I need is to put that to music....


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

I did have a minor break through on string blur today, so it was a good day shooting at 70m....and I didn't lose any arrows!


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

A couple of years ago I lost 53 pounds in a very short time on a diet to help my blood sugar. The weight loss took my body fat down to the 12% range but I found that I lost energy and strength. The diet was doctor supervised and devised to maintain lean muscle mass. After a couple of years I decided that I would reintroduce McDonald's into my training regiment. Now I am 60 pounds heavier and feeling stronger and more energetic. It is scary how fast I regained the weight once I started eating fast food again.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The Italians also seem to participate in a lot of other archery pursuits such as Field. Maybe that is part of their well-roundedness.

-Grant


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

there is an instant in the technique of both golf and archery wherein ALL the greats have been very similar...

in golf it's at impact--and follow through--that i have seen countless pictures and videos of these micro-moments in stills from hi-speed fotos and videos from many golf greats and they all look very much alike..

in archery i would venture that it's at the moment of release--and follow through-- when these archery greats will probably be very similar also..

...i just haven't seen many fotos/videos of these in archery as compared to golf to confirm it 100%.

i guess it's like saying.."it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you do"....

in a very general sense of course..


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I would agree that it's the moment of release and follow through, and how consistent these are, that matters.

Of course, great technique just simply provides for great consistency. There are certain alignment positions (primarily bowarm) that promote consistency. For instance, a high bow shoulder and shoulders not in line with the bow hand, will lead to poor consistency.

John


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve, I wouldn't exactly call these flatbellies...


----------



## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I'd like to get that book!


 Then get "Golf is not a game of perfect", and ignore the lay-up advice, don't worry about the sandtraps, and substitute archery every time you see the word "golf". Tom Parrish put me onto that book while he was at the U of Texas, and there is only one book I have given out more than that one. 
And on the subject of diet, energy, and the literal horror of food pollution like Mickey D's - Two words: "Supersize Me". 
For those that get it, enuff said, and for those not able to, good luck. Yore gonna need it. (Nothing wrong with an occasional burger, but the less the better. A burger is like a smorgasbord of free radicals...) And yes, I seem to pay a LOT of attention to nutritional topics...


----------



## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, I wouldn't exactly call these flatbellies...


 John, maybe archers can substitute "core mass" for "core strength". ?


----------



## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jmvargas said:


> there is an instant in the technique of both golf and archery wherein ALL the greats have been very similar...


Also true of baseball hitters. So many unique batting stances, but at the moment of impact, the schematics of almost all great hitters look virtually identical


----------



## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Steve, I wouldn't exactly call these flatbellies...
> 
> View attachment 1433091


Great picture! I see three spare tires. I'm pretty sure Vittorio has been saying for years, all other physical characteristic variables controlled, the heavier archer has an advantage over the lighter archer.


----------



## swagpiratex (Apr 8, 2012)

TER said:


> Great picture! I see three spare tires. I'm pretty sure Vittorio has been saying for years, all other physical characteristic variables controlled, the heavier archer has an advantage over the lighter archer.


Really? What do you mean about other physical characteristics controlled? I used to be 190 and portly like the Koreans in the picture and have since gone down to 165 and come back up to 185 with mostly muscle. Can't fathom the advantages the me four years ago would have over the current me.


----------



## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

The heavier archer is more stable, especially in the wind. And "all other physical characteristic variables controlled" is really important to understand. Are you familiar with scientific method? Or bow tuning? Change one variable at a time to learn what is going on. In your own example of yourself you mention changing more than more one variable at a time. It will help you greatly to understand controlling variables, both in terms of physical characteristics and bow/arrow tuning.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Finally back from London and free from all limits in speach given to those there, I feel of course a very happy person and a can now comment about happenings ...

Few facts:
1) Total real weight of Korean men team: 300 Kg (100+100+100)
2) Total real weight of Italian men team. 295 Kg (110+100+85)
Italy has still to grow by 6kg to beat Korea permanently! :wink:

3) Italian men team does not have a Korean coach :
- Michele Frangilli trained by me
- Marco Galiazzo trained by his father Adriano Galiazzo
- Mauro Nespoli trained by Luciano Malovini
The 3 all follow very different styles of shooting, nothing to do with the simple Korean present style (or the complicated Korean old style) 
The Korean coach has no use but showing up at tournaments. Basically the team don't want him. In Tourin 2011 WC they refused to have him in the finals (and he was replaced by Gigi Vella, technical director), and in London they asked also not have him, but Italian federation has forced his presence for political reasons.

4) There have been many top archers in archery history with heavy body weight , and several were also in London. 3/3 of Korean team, 2/3 of Italian team, 2/3 of British team, and many others. Just loot to pictures. Archery has a lot to do with balance, stability, upper body strenght and a good control of mind to body, as well as capability to repeat same actions endless. Heavy body weight helps? If it is not pure fat, I think yes, it helps because quite often is also sympthom of positive spirit and strenght.
And, for sure, good archers are also good video game players.. 3M team (Michele, Marco and Mauro) are all heavy ....video game palyers... But this is another story.


----------



## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

I'm sure it's no coincidence that I saw the Italian team having lunch in an Italian restaurant having an Italian lunch just before the team medal round.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> I'm sure it's no coincidence that I saw the Italian team having lunch in an Italian restaurant having an Italian lunch just before the team medal round.


... George, it was a SECRET :wink:!!!!


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

And was the American team having lunch in an American restaurant eating an American lunch (McDonald's)? 

Nice to see you back on AT, George. Stay a while this time, and don't let the idiots drive you off again.


----------



## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Vittorio said:


> ... George, it was a SECRET :wink:!!!!


Sorry Vittorio!  At least I didn't mention it on the PA system...


----------



## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

Bear in mind that body aesthetics and body fat % are not always indicators of fitness related to strength & power. I'm not sure if the Italian team members are implementing a strength training program, but maybe they are, and they may actually be quite fit athletically, but victim that great Italian food.


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Thanks, Vitorrio for honesty regarding Italian coaching. Unfortunately, I already ate the crow. Plus, I am down four pounds this week.... As to consistency, yes, John, my bow ARM has told me that. Also, I am lousy at Video games as with mixed lateral dominance, my character's go in circles. Guess I would lose to the Italian Video Archers. LOL.


----------



## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

TER said:


> Great picture! I see three spare tires. I'm pretty sure Vittorio has been saying for years, all other physical characteristic variables controlled, the heavier archer has an advantage over the lighter archer.


Let's not use these guys as an excuse to get even fatter. (My wife is worried because she notices a lot of really fat archers out there. But that's good for me because even at 15 pounds overweight, I'm a relative super-model among middle-aged male archers.)


----------



## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Jay Barr once told me at the Indoor Nationals. Watch all the top shooters...the one consistant thing about each one of them....They do the same thing every time they shoot and arrow. The mental game and consistent form win the day, regardless of what style of shooting form you use.


----------



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Greysides said:


> The whole thing about archery is the consistent repetition. Whatever your body takes to easiest will be the most consistent form for you.
> It's what you'll resort to when tired or under pressure.
> I've tried different ways to stand, to draw, to hook, to grip etc. None were wrong but some suited me better or were more comfortable.
> If the Olympics thought us anything, it should be that there is no (ahem) best way but ways that suit the individuals.
> ...


The second sentence in this post says it all, to me.....In the Marine Corps, the mantra was "You will fight like You train"....When a person is tired, or under stress, they WILL revert back to what they know in their subconscious, or what's easiest on them physically, and mentally...Jim


----------



## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

young Mr. Michele Frangilli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wstdQCe364&t=8m45s


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Fantastic footage of Michele. Just superb form and positions.

Interesting note there - Frangilli would have been up 5 set points to 3 instead of going to a 1 arrow (then eventually 2 arrow) shoot-off.

John


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Fantastic footage of Michele. Just superb form and positions.
> 
> Interesting note there - Frangilli would have been up 5 set points to 3 instead of going to a 1 arrow (then eventually 2 arrow) shoot-off.
> 
> John


He was younger, slimmer and stronger, but of course less experienced ... Style is not changed, body shape is. He shot 684 OR in the ranking round and 170 OR in 18 arrows match against Zabrowski under heavy rain. It took a lot of years to him to get back to same levels.
Then, looking to Justin , I have only to say again "what a vaste of talent !"

Now you know why I like the set system ....


----------



## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

TER said:


> The heavier archer is more stable, especially in the wind. And "all other physical characteristic variables controlled" is really important to understand. Are you familiar with scientific method? Or bow tuning? Change one variable at a time to learn what is going on. In your own example of yourself you mention changing more than more one variable at a time. It will help you greatly to understand controlling variables, both in terms of physical characteristics and bow/arrow tuning.


Just remember that your spare tire lowers your center of mass making you more stable. (that's what I keep telling myself)

TAO


----------



## Hunter Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

Michele is the new poster child for those of us who are no longer "flat bellies". Thanks, Michele! :darkbeer:


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

What shocks me is that he's using a glove of all things!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, he did use a glove in '96. A plain 'ol Damascus traditional glove - the same kind I use for bowhunting.

Since then, I believe he makes his own tabs, and they are THICK. 

John


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

No wonder he makes his own if he's shooting ~58#.

-Grant


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Grant, it wasn't Michele that was shooting 58#. Michele shot about 51-52.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

All the same, I can barely stand 36# with the standard Cav Elite face and backing.

-Grant


----------



## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Grant - due to some arthritis in finger joints, I had same problem with standard Cav Elite tab - so, I took it apart, using the cordovan for a pattern, punched holes and cut out a third piece of leather and put it back together - had to Home Depot longer screws - solved the problem - one of my left handed tabs I did that to, I gave to Limbwalker's daughter - she shoots well with it. A righty tried to "steal" my first made tab this weekend - helped his fingers. I had scraps of leather on hand from building stuff with my son - experiment with the thickness you like - fun to do and you just might make a better tab and be able to move the weight .. luck to you.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I shot a three layer tab in Athens. I had been shooting 52# that spring and finished at 49# at the games. That third layer made all the difference.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Glove & stab story has been told many times... Anyway, problems to finger tendons appeared in 1995, and have been solved adding a glove. He used it till 1998 European target championships, but under sun, fingers were slipping inside the glove and this was giving some unconsistency to the release. So we changed to additional leather layers.
Since then, thickness of the tab is in the range of 4.8 to 5.2 mm under index and ring fingers, got by a front cordovan leather and other 3 to 4 leather layers of different thicknesses., and my suggestion remains to use 1 mm thickness for each 10# as average.
It was a *choice* to *sacrify* release smoothness to a longer life of hand tendons. 
You can surely shoot >50# with standard 2 layers tabs, getting a nice smooth release, but paying it with a lot of pain and a shorter life as archer. 

1996 Olympics top poundages: Magnus Petterson 56#, Michele Frangilli 53#
2012 Olympics top poundages: Mauro Nespoli 58#, Brady Ellison 56#


----------



## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

Vittorio said:


> Glove & stab story has been told many times... Anyway, problems to finger tendons appeared in 1995, and have been solved adding a glove. He used it till 1998 European target championships, but under sun, fingers were slipping inside the glove and this was giving some unconsistency to the release. So we changed to additional leather layers.
> Since then, thickness of the tab is in the range of 4.8 to 5.2 mm under index and ring fingers, got by a front cordovan leather and other 3 to 4 leather layers of different thicknesses., and my suggestion remains to use 1 mm thickness for each 10# as average.
> It was a *choice* to *sacrify* release smoothness to a longer life of hand tendons.
> You can surely shoot >50# with standard 2 layers tabs, getting a nice smooth release, but paying it with a lot of pain and a shorter life as archer.
> ...


I thought he leaved the glove because he had been surgery. 

By the way, If I understood well, you didn't like the 12 arrows match but you like the set system, or is irony?

Regards!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It was a choice to sacrify release smoothness to a longer life of hand tendons.


And that's why I love you Vittorio, you don't miss a thing...  LOL!


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Borja1300 said:


> I thought he leaved the glove because he had been surgery.
> 
> By the way, If I understood well, you didn't like the 12 arrows match but you like the set system, or is irony?
> 
> Regards!


No irony, the set system is far better than the 12 arrows match ... IMHO.


----------



## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

Vittorio said:


> No irony, the set system is far better than the 12 arrows match ... IMHO.


Why exactly? 
I don't understand why a system that allow an archer making less points win, is better


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Trust me. It's better. Every archer I know who has shot it agrees with this. You can get "caught" by an odd gust of wind and shoot a poor arrow, and still be in the match. It reduces the "luck" factor.

John


----------



## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Trust me. It's better. Every archer I know who has shot it agrees with this. You can get "caught" by an odd gust of wind and shoot a poor arrow, and still be in the match. It reduces the "luck" factor.
> 
> John


Also reduces the "bad archer" factor 
I've shot set system and I don't like.


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Just a question and of course I'm not suggesting that WA change the round again, but wouldn't 6-arrow sets have made more sense for the set eliminations? Hardly takes any more time than 3 arrow sets, allows for recovery of a poor shot and reduces the "luck" factor of a weaker archer having a brief hot streak.


----------



## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I think 3 arrows was perfect for TV. It enhanced the drama and kept things moving. And of course the evolution of the set system was entirely for TV. Otherwise, the double FITA is a hell of a test and probably better suited to determine the best archer..


----------



## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

How about keeping the set system as is but have a round robin pool play matches with top two archers of each pool advancing to the final elimination matches.Sort of like what is done for Olympic qualification in U.S.I believe that would be a very good test!!!!And it would be nice to see women and men together in a mixed team format.That could be done in several events in the Olympics!!!!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I agree the 3 arrow set is great. It allows the spectator to easily do the math in their head, and know what the next archer needs to tie or get ahead. It also allows each competitor to do the math in their head very easily, which adds to the mental challenge of the event. With 6 arrow sets, we would lose that, I think. 

It has worked well in indoor competitions, so I suspect that's where they brought it from. 

Also, while the set system is clearly better for the audience, including the TV audience, I also think it "finds" a unique kind of champion. Usually not the same archer that would win the ranking round, but they are two completely different kinds of competition.

So the idea that they award medals for the ranking round (which may also keep the top 5 or 6 archers from throwing points intentionally to avoid certain matchups) has merit, as it is a completely different form of competition.

John


----------



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

How about an archery "omnium" like they have in cycling? 

Points for the high ranking round, points for lasting the longest in a "furthest arrow from the X on each end eliminated", points for "closest arrow to the X on each end", points for fastest 3-arrow end.

Then we can have synchronized archery - 2 shooters, one clicker. Makeup and costumes required, bows and have to match each other, groups count more than accuracy.

Start adding "style points" for form. (Watch out, Italy )


----------

