# Groups Much Better at 35 yards than at 20!



## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

*Reply to subject*

Hello
Well if we were talking about a re curve bow .At 35 yards is the distance a arrow found a even plain.

Now your 20 yard shot groups could be your form.And at 35 yards you head and form might be more erect.Also check your peep height.

Later
Unk :angel:


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## Smokegrub (Mar 2, 2005)

The bow is a PSE Firestorm Lite Center Cam with an HHA sight. I can't imagine that form plays any role since my aiming point is the same for both distances. Why do you believe the nock may be problem? The reason I ask is that my string may have stretched because the nock has rotated since I bought the bow. I will be buying new Vapor Trail VTX strings and cables very soon.


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## 2ndchance (Sep 19, 2004)

have you group tuned your bow?

this sounds like a tuning issue to me, your arow probably isnt flying well in the first few yards then recovering.

www.eastonarchery.com/downloads

go there and download the tuning guide, it will help
Ty


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Most likely weak spine. Those willow sticks just won't group at short range!


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## phatbowman1 (Apr 27, 2005)

*tunning issue*

sounds like a tunning issue to me, it sounds like its taking your aarow that long to correct itself, after coming out of the bow


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## ex-NFO (Sep 20, 2003)

I've found that the difference is probably mental. I shoot better groups at 30 than at 20, when shooting at the same field target. Since the circle is the same size, I aim more carefully at the 30. I'm still working on curing that...


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

phatbowman1 said:


> sounds like a tunning issue to me, it sounds like its taking your aarow that long to correct itself, after coming out of the bow


I would suspect this also. Bad inital arrow flight cause by poor tunin or weak spined arrows.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

Check for arrow contact with something. Fletch hitting the rest or cables will cause this sort of thing. Check the vanes for marks and the cables for frizzing, both of these are hints that there's contact somewhere.


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## ex-NFO (Sep 20, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, why would arrows that are grouping erratically at 20 yards, suddenly all straighten out and get sucked back together for better groups at 35 yards? I can understand if the 20 yard group had arrows sticking in the bale at different angles because they're fishtailing as they fly. Otherwise, it would seem to me that arrows heading down range apart from each other would continue to do that as the distance gets further.


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## Robert Padilla (Jan 12, 2004)

I agree with the too weak arrow spine people who wrote in.


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## Smokegrub (Mar 2, 2005)

I am shooting PSE Carbon Revolution Extreme Impact 200 arrows with 100 grain field points. Bow poundage is about 55 lb. According to specs arrows should have plenty of spine.


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## johnhames (Apr 9, 2003)

martineer said:


> Just out of curiosity, why would arrows that are grouping erratically at 20 yards, suddenly all straighten out and get sucked back together for better groups at 35 yards? I can understand if the 20 yard group had arrows sticking in the bale at different angles because they're fishtailing as they fly. Otherwise, it would seem to me that arrows heading down range apart from each other would continue to do that as the distance gets further.


This sound like pretty strong logic to me. I would look for form changes betwen the 20 and 35 yd distances ie. shoulder position, head position bow hand position. etc. It may be on relese or it may be while you are aiming. The group starting out wide spread and becoming sucked back together because they flew further out sounds like myth.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Martineer:

A weak arrow flexes rather severely around the two nodes- one near the arrow tip, the other near the fletches. This means until the arrow settles down, the point may be to the left, right or high or low of the two nodes. Once the flexing stops, the point will be in line with the nodes. At least this is what I think is happening.


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## ex-NFO (Sep 20, 2003)

Jabwa said:


> Martineer:
> 
> A weak arrow flexes rather severely around the two nodes- one near the arrow tip, the other near the fletches. This means until the arrow settles down, the point may be to the left, right or high or low of the two nodes. Once the flexing stops, the point will be in line with the nodes. At least this is what I think is happening.


I know, but I was under the impression that by the time the arrow got 20 yards downrange, and then 30 yards, the amount of flexing wasn't enough to account for the big group differences.

Secondly, we buy arrows for consistency between shafts. Therefore, the points downrange where the shaft flexes back to straight should be the same for each arrow. I would think that poorly spined arrows should flex the same each time, and therefore groups should be poor at all ranges, not just some.

We should at least be able to address the question of Smokegrub's arrow spine, if he can tell us the bow he shoots, draw weight and length, and the arrow's he's shooting with length and point weight.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

smokegrub - let's get a little more specific with you setup...

Drawlength - 
Axle to Axle length
Cam type (Centerfire single cam?)
Brace Height
Draw Weight (55 lbs)
Arrow Length excluding tip
Point Weigt (100 gr)

I'll plug the numbers into AA and we'll see what it comes up with.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Read some of the threads on spine consistency. Some data is available from Carbon Tech for several brands of arrows and to summarize: SPINE IS ANYTHING BUT CONSISTENT among many arrow brands! Within one dozen of a popular brand, spine varied from 0.350 to 0.430. Check out Carbon Tech- the only ones so far to publish spine VARIANCE of their arrows!!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

My wife shoots a severly underspined arrow for 3D. Doesn't group too hot out to 15 yards, 20 and 30 yards are about the same. But how good a group do you need for 3D- after all, it ain't Vegas! :smile:


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## Steel Magnolia (Jan 2, 2005)

Sounds like weak spined arrows that flop around out past 20 yds. then the FOC takes over and straightens them out at 35. Find someone with Archers Advantage, The Archery Program, or On Target and have them correctly check your combination.

WBM


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

I forgot to add, I'll also need to know if you use release or fingers and if you use a loop.

I checked the PSE site today, the current spec's for the bow are a 30" A to A & 8.75" brace height. With 29 1/4" dl (entered as 28") & a 28.5" raw shaft length & a std. release (no loop) you're low green.


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## Smokegrub (Mar 2, 2005)

Note post #12 above for information on arrows and bow.

Thanks for your help.


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## ex-NFO (Sep 20, 2003)

Sorry, missed that one. You didn't list the arrow length, but I'm sure you've got the right spot on the chart.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

smokegrub, take note of the info I need in post 16, post 12 lacks the detail that we need to get the correct output from any of the programs.


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## Smokegrub (Mar 2, 2005)

PSE Firestorm Lite Center Cam (50-60 lb)
Set up two full turns out on each limb or approximately 55 pounds.
Arrows: PSE Carbon Revolution Extreme Impact 200 arrows with 100 grain field points. Length 29 inches.
Using a release and a loop.


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## russ (Jul 29, 2002)

taking the data you given me plus making a couple of assumptions that your draw length & arrow length are the same, using 4" vanes your arrows indicate that they are on the high side of the green in the arrow selector. In other words if the data I have is correct, there should be nothing wrong with your arrow selection. Have you ever checked your draw weight on a scale? On at least one of my bows 2-3 full turns out is 58 lbs (60 lb peak) and the draw weight changes 3 lbs/turn. I have never, nor will I ever shoot the bow with bolts bottomed out.


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## AllenRead (Jan 12, 2004)

Your arrow is probably ok, but something is causing the arrow to come off the bow very badly. But you can test this by shooting groups with a lighter point weight. 

Arrow contact with something on your bow is another possibility. Powder test to rule this out.

Another possibility is that your centershot is very badly off. Re-tune for this. 

If neither of these cures your problem, start over with your set up. Take your sight, rest, stabilizer and quiver off of your bow and start fresh.

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## Smokegrub (Mar 2, 2005)

I spent some time this afternoon carefully examining the center shot. What a mess. The string that came with my bow has stretched more than I could ever imagine. That also explains why my sight arrangement needed changing every session or two. I'm sorry for troubling you guys, but I definitely attribute your input to putting me on the right track.

Based on what I have seen and read at this site it looks like Vapor Trail VTX strings are a good choice. Do you agree? I am ordering as soon as they respond to an email unless you tell me I am making a mistake. I want a string that does not stretch and does not rotate!

Once again, thanks.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

martineer said:


> I've found that the difference is probably mental. I shoot better groups at 30 than at 20, when shooting at the same field target. Since the circle is the same size, I aim more carefully at the 30. I'm still working on curing that...


I agree. Groups don't get tighter the farther out they go. A group that is 4" at 20 yards would be larger at 30. It's in your head... come to think of it, mine too.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

What gives is probabely you bow arm. Happens to me and some others I know from time to time. 

At longer distance arm is held out correctly and the routine is preformed as it should be, result arrow impact close to aiming point.

AT 20 yards bow arm collapses during the release because we relax and thinking this is an easy gimme result arrows sparyed all over the place. 

concentrate on every shot not just the long ones.. 

at least that was what was wrong with a friend of about a month ago. 
He could shoot 12 's at 40 yards but was getting 8's and 5's at 20 yards. Now that it's fixed he shot a 202 at the 3d shoot on a very windy day. It was quite impressive. Short targets he got 10 and 12's.


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