# Notice to all bow/accessory manufacturers



## LongDraw1970 (Aug 6, 2003)

Please take the time to listen to my rant....
I have hunted with a bow and arrow for 20 years I have owned PSE, Hoyt, and Bowtec. The thing that is endemic with the archery/bowhunting industry is how slow the move to quality made products made with quality materials has been. Why can't I have a bow with accessories that all of the hardware does not rust when I am on a backpack hunt? I can see that there are some manufacturers that are slowly stepping up to the plate with better products (spott hogg sites, more bows with sealed bearings) Just look over the fence at what gun hunters are offered. I can buy a remington rifle that will get the job done, and I can buy a remington rifle with a kevlar stock with a stainless or titanium barrell and action. Yuo can buy a bushnell scope, or a leuopold, zeiss, swarovski, etc... You can buy a pair of binoculars for 80.00 or you can spend 2000.00 for the top of the line. I am a consumer who appreciates and owns top of the line products. With my above examples the high end product that you are paying for is appairent, not so with the so called "high end" in the archery industry.

Now take a look at bows for example. When you get right down to it there is hardly a difference between a bow that is 400.00, or 800.00. It seems with the archery industry its all marketing hype to sell the latest new thing. On the top end bows my limb bolts still rust, there are plastic components on the 800.00 bow. When you look at accessorys its even worse. Expensive sights that have plastic pin guards, sight bodies made from low grade alloys, etc.... 

Why can't the manufacturers have a true high end line? I don't think I am The only guy out there that would appreciate this?
Does anyone feel the same way about this as I do?


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

AMEN, brother!
I am a person that wants 'solid' / 'dependable' equipment! I hate to see things that break because of NORMAL use or something goes wrong because of faulty materials used to build it. Come on-we pay enough as consumers to have stuff that will function FLAWLESSLY as needed!
I think we are just in a MASS PRODUCTION market and to get that kind of quality you will have to go with a smaller, more personal company like Storm --a company that w actually gives a rat's @ss about the people that buy the products. And they practice QUALITY CONTROLL! For example....Storm bows are bench built-one at a time-and are checked by the owners before they are cleared to ship!
I have owned bows from companies that WILL NOT talk to a "customer"! You have to be a "dealer" to get any kind of customer service! I think that is a bunch of crap! The guy from Storm gave me his home phone # in case I needed anything in the future!(all I wanted was a set of heavier limbs!).
Sorry......I feel your pain!!-


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

LD1970,


Check out the new Moon bow on this forum.
Sounds like the type of bow you're looking for. 
Besides Spot-Hogg, check out HTM, and CBE with pins.
They're all rugged sights with top components.
Most rugged rests are Bodoodle Pro-500, Pro Tuner with 3-D launcher, and GKF Infinity.
For a drop-away rest, HTM has no peer !


Sag.


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## stevej (Jul 1, 2002)

guys, most of these products are highly enginered and require specialist lathes and the like.

and a very small market to get returns from. 

fact archery is a very small sport. 
so they skimp on the materials to get a decent return.


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## MoNofletch (Jul 28, 2003)

I understand. BUT- what if someone built a bow from top grade materials and everything was the "besr you can get"-don't you thing there would be a nitch in the market for this type of a SUPER BOW? I would be willing to pay a bit more for the extra effort. Kind of the BMW of archery
I agree with LD. I hate to see the rust. Would it cost that much more for better grades of material?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Thanks Sag,

I appreciate your referral. 

I would be happy to entertain any questions or comments you may have on my bow – the Full model, by Moon.

Incidentally Sag, the price is getting better w/ the help of a couple on AT…can’t elaborate right now, as there are still some issues that need resolved and confirmed – but will have this sorted before the first run goes out the door. Hope everyone’s pleasantly surprised.  

Jim.


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

I had considered a few years ago of machining custom made bows. You could have anything you wanted built in and made from anything. However, I my wife pregnant with my first child and needless to say she wasnt thrilled about me spending $15k on a CNC mill. I figured I could make a custom bow in the price range of $1500+ with an average price of about $2200.00 and sell about 20 1st year if not more. Not an amazing living but wouldnt be too bad. 

Here's my theory, People will spend thousands upon thousands for a custom gun. Why not spend that kind of cashola on a bow? I know there are well to do bowhunters who want the best they can get and will pay for it. These are the guys that buy 6+ bows a year every year. Heck you make it out of titanium. Hell, if you wanted a 2 lb bow you could use Berylium but I doubt someone woulds spend upwards of $30K just to have a bow weigh 2 lbs, maybe less, but ya never know.

As for me, I am finally getting around to machining my own. Hopefully should be done within 1 month. I wont be able to post pictures however as there is patentable technology incorporportated into my design. I am only using aluminum. Down the road I might consider titanium but that cashola.


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## rescue15 (Apr 11, 2003)

I think there are quality bows and accessories out there. You can't just go buy the most expensive ones and say this is the way to go. I have owned both high dollar and economy accessories. Some of the lesser priced stuff was better than the top dollar stuff. You need to look at features, materials and reviews. I have found for me the best brands have been GKF, Copper John, TRU Ball, CBE, Gold Tip and Kwikee Kwiver for accessories. For bows, there is only one bow to hunt...Pearson!

I have laid my bows in the snow, mud and wet grass and have never had a problem with rust or breakage. 

With that said, you still need to maintain your equipment by wipint off everything at the end of the day and waxing your string. Without maintenance, even the best equipment will be reduced to a rusty pile of trash. 

Just as an example, everybody agrees that Smith and Wesson makes great pistols. I used to carry a model 586 for work. On hot days when I would sweat alot, my gun had a light coat of rust where it was trapped in the holster. Every night I had to wipe it down with a silicone cloth to keep it in good shape. Archery equipment is no different.

Just my 2 cents

Steve


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Hmm.....

...seems that a few people still realize what is all about........


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

*Rescue 15*

Not only cashola for the material for a titanium riser but for the tooling too!
I dont see why the whole bow could not be milled from TI including the limbs.
Now that would virtually be an indestructable bow.
the price tag on that kind of bow would be very expensive!


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

Titanium is stronger but it is by no means is it indestructiable. All compounds have a set of physical properties that they exhibit. Titanium happens to just have one of the highest tensile strength to weight ratios. Titanium is not stronger tensile strength than steal but it weighs alot less. Per square inch, titanium weights more than Aluminum. However, it's strength/weight ratio is so good that you can use less material to make the item overall lighter as significantly less is required to make the structural strenght that is desired. Hope that makes sense.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

LontgDraw1970,
I enjoyed reading your post. I understand your rant. I believe it has to do with demand more than anything. Not many guys or gals out there willing to pay $1000.00+ for a bow. I saw it happen when I worked 5 years in a Pro Shop. Features don't sell, price does. Besides, and I know I'm going to hear it for making this comment, firearms are a better investment that bows. Think about it, if you have a bolt action rifle that is twenty years old it isn't obsolete. Firearm design hasn't changed that much. Can't say that about a bow now can you? A twenty year old compound may as well be a Model T Ford! 
Who knows, as bowhunting continues to grow, maybe you will get your wish. 

mdbowhunter
Here comes the rut!!!!!


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*They used to make one*

OREGON BOW CO. (before it went out of business) used to make their bows with stainless steel limb bolts and cable guards. Too bad they are no longer around.

Rchr


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## nail (Oct 29, 2004)

Sagitarius or how ever

What is a HTM rest? What are CBS pins?


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## Bowdeadly (Oct 24, 2002)

I guess none of you heard of a Bow Manufacture called Mathews Inc. They are out of sparta Wisconsin. They make bows that include such quality matterials and features as you all are asking for. To boot none of there bows cost $800.00. Oh yeah, they are about the easiest to tune and shoot also.

Later,
Mark


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## KBacon (Nov 13, 2003)

Bowdeadly... bwahahahahahahahaha!!!

I never heard of the manufacturer you're referring to. 

But the Mathews that I have heard of uses the $H!tiest strings on the market, standard screws that do rust, and several cost in the $800 range. Get on the bandwagon.. everyone is doing it...


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## Bowdeadly (Oct 24, 2002)

*Not mine*

It may be true that if not properly taken care of the 6 or so screws in a newer Mathews could draw a little rust. I have hunted and competed in some very adverse conditions. I have yet to notice any rusting of any of the bolts on the bow itself. I have noticed sight attachment screws and other acc. screws rusting pretty good. Nothing a dry towel can avoid at the end of the day. All the new High performance cam equiped mathews have sealed bearings on the Idler and cam. No plastic bushings or anything. 

On the subject of why most bow manufactures use mild steel bolts instead of stainless or titanium is do to the fact that stainless and titanium bolts may hinder rust but are also less malluable than standerd mild steel. This causes them to be broken off or stripped out. They are also more expensive. 

What model of Mathews retails for over $800.00? The Outback's MSRP is $719.00 and the LX is less than that. The Ovation may be up there close but any Mathews can be had for under $800.00

I have no problem with Zebra strings. I like them.


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## fatboy111 (Mar 5, 2003)

Why should anyone buy a bow for 700.00+ dollars, when a gun will shoot so much farther? As much as I love archery, a gun is a much better buy. And for the record, if Mathews was such a top dollar bow, why do I fix sooooooooo many of them? That reason alone makes me wonder how and why they are so expensive.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Nail,

Talking about the new HTM drop-away rest
http://www.htmbowsights.com/

CBE is a sight manufacturer that makes greats sights for 3-D and hunting.
http://www.custombowequipment.com/

Here is a pic of the HTM drop-away arrowrest.


Sag.


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## Bowdeadly (Oct 24, 2002)

*Fatboy111*

What exactly do you always fix on a Mathews Bow. I have owned several and serviced a few over the years. I have seen a few split limbs but there is no doubt that in that case the bow was dry fired. I have owned 20 or more Mathews and never had so much as a bushing go bad. I Have also serviced many other bow makes and models and some have distinct problems in certain areas. I must agree that it is hard to beleive that any bow would retail for $700.00 or $800.00. Considering what it takes to bring one to market. But stop and think, most guys don't flinch at buying a $100.00 arrow rest just a small acc. worth pennies on the dollar. 

I am the first to admitt that I shoot a Mathews and I do indeed think they are of the highest quality offered today. That is my opinion. Just because any bow requires some care and attention every know and then to avoid rusting or wear doesn't make them junk. I see guys all the time come in the shop and pull there $700.00 bow from the bed of there truck no case or anything. they hand it to me and say this thing won't shoot or this just busted. Yeah, Whatever. 

I guess its a good thing you all have something to gripe about. If your archery gear is so inferior to firearms maybe you should by a gun and hang out with the gun guys durring gun season. Besides with a stainless gun think of all the money you will save on a little OIL.


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## LongDraw1970 (Aug 6, 2003)

Bowdeadly,

Its obvious you either own, or work in an archery pro shop. 

It's not just"something to gripe about", but rather how alot of the bow and accesory manufacturers have been slow to step up to the plate with quality details within their products. Lots of the "gripes" in this thread are legitimate. I have guided bowhunters, as well as rifle hunters on backpack hunts in some of the most rugged terrrain on the continent. And without a doubt The high-end rifles and rifle scopes are more durable, built with better materials than the high- end bowhunting equipment. If you spend 2000.00 on a rifle compaired to 800.00 on a rifle their is a big difference in materials, weight, accuracy and craftmanship. It just is not that way with Archery gear. The archery industry has based its growth on B.S. marketing from year to year on the next greatest thing. Sure their has been innovation, but for the most part its spoonfed B.S. 

As an example, I do not think that their is one piece of plastic on an 800.00 rifle. Throw on a scope, sling, and bipod and still no plastic. Rifle guys would not accept this. Espicially on a high end gun/scope combo. Probably 1/2 of all new arrow rests on the market have plastic incorperated into their design. With the exception of the whiskers on a whisher biscuit, it is not necessary!


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## Bowdeadly (Oct 24, 2002)

*I agree*

I agree that the hi end rifles and scopes are much better than the low end. The thing is these gentleman are saying that there are no hi end bows out there. I beg to differ. The Mathews line of bows incorporate the best matterials offered for the application. Put a $700.00 LX or Outback against lets say just for talking purpose a $299.00 PSE Nova. Hi end against low end. There is no comparison to which bow has more quality. But, before we go off on that remark also understand that the quality of Archery equipment is 90% opinion. Most folks can't tell you the difference of cast alluminum from billet alluminum. No one can aim fine enough to shoot the difference. The difference (in my opinion) is durrability. The $700.00 bow will function longer with fewer break downs possiably than a $300.00 bow due to better design and matterials. But a guy with a $300.00 bow that shoots it very well and has had no problems and killed his game with it will probably look no farhter for more. I agree that the industry could use some better stuff to build ultra hi grade bows. Ask yourself this.... Will anyone buy them. The real market in archery is hunting and as long as hunters have the option of buying a sight with a plastic pin gaurd $75.00 or one that is all metal for $175.00 we will still make and sell lower end stuff. Besides the mindset of most folks is that if the plastic or teflon bushing weren't strong enough they wouldn't offer it. I Beleive in hi end stuff. All mine is! So is yours if you think it is and it is the best your money can buy. Hense the $299.00 bow, plastic sight, etc., etc.

We could carry this on about everything from the car you drive to the kitchen appliances you buy. I drive a $42,000.00 truck. I (feel it is king of the road). Allthough I have broke it and probably will again. I guess Ford should have put me on a titanium bumper or maybe I should take care not to run into things. 

So not to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone I agree with all said. I just thought my 2 cents worth may shed some light on why things are the way they are. Heck what do I know? Look how much I spent on a truck and there's plastic all over that thing.
Thanks,
bowdeadly


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## KBacon (Nov 13, 2003)

> Put a $700.00 LX or Outback against lets say just for talking purpose a $299.00 PSE Nova.


Well both use the same fiberglass limbs, machined aluminum riser, same grade fastners, same FASTFLIGHT strings, same cams (cept the Nova is adjustable)... ect... ect... ect... 

Yeah I see why the Mathews costs $400 more...


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## flapjack (Oct 9, 2004)

Talking about $700 & $800 rifles in a tread that talks about "high end" equipment is pretty much self defeating. 

A high end rifle goes for THOUSANDS....really high end scopes alone will sell for $700 - $800.

In our area, the auto shops work on a lot of GM produsts... not to many Hyundi's though...guess that would be because they SELL so many more GM's. Mathews is the most popular bow selling today...hum...wonder if that is why you would see so many in the shop FATBOY111??????

Me, I am partial to my Parker Ultra Lite 31...great little Bow...If someone dropped a new Mathews Outback in a 26'5" draw, 70 pound pull into my lap, I'd sure try it out...but I'm not going to buy one on my own 'cause I'm plum happy with my Parker.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

Hunted in the rain for two days and nothing on my x-tec rusted, much to my surprise, but the screws on my sight and limbsavers did have some rust. Why not stainless screws?


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

I think it is the nature of the beast.

What are sight manufacturers to do for instance? As a mechanical engineer, I can say, many of todays modern plastics are more than durable enough to be used in the archery industry. WHERE is the key.

I recently traded up my Copper John Dead Nuts, for an Impact Archery Cosmic sight. The screws on the Copper John rusted. The screws on the Impact haven't - much to my surprise. I would prefer to see stainless fasteners on archery equipment. However, most "camo freaks" would complain they were too bright or shiney. Stainless limb bolts on a camo bow? That would really get some complaints....

I think it is a very valid complaint though. The thing that really burns my butt, is the fact for instance, that all risers are made on the same machines. More than likely, to the same tolerances. All the limbs come from the same place. All the cams are machined. So what exactly DOES differentiate a $500 from a $700 bow? NOTHING!

I'm not sure about you guys, but geometry and feel dictate which bow I buy more than anything. I AM happy that the brand I shoot really doesn't have that "break" in pricing. All of the bows are roughly the same price with premiums going for the top end bows of the line, I.E. Fastest, or more target oriented.

It is somewhat annoying, but my question to complainers is (I'm also a complainer), what do you suggest? Brass bushings? Stainless screws? What? Perhaps aluminum screws (I think thats what my Impact sight has). Complaints are fine, but suggestions are more productive....

Bo


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

*Re: They used to make one*



rchr said:


> *OREGON BOW CO. (before it went out of business) used to make their bows with stainless steel limb bolts and cable guards. Too bad they are no longer around.
> 
> Rchr *


LOL Too funny ! I had 2 of their junk bows. Took me 5 months to get limbs from them. Broke the week before bow season. I had to buy another bow to hunt with. Nothing but lame excuses from them. I finally gave up till season was over.
As a note I heard that some of the staff from Ore-GONE bows went to work for Bowtech ? Hmmmmmm...... ???


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: Re: They used to make one*



BigBirdVA said:


> *As a note I heard that some of the staff from Ore-GONE bows went to work for Bowtech ? Hmmmmmm...... ??? *


Yip. Where do think the name Black Knight 2 is coming from? 
Oregons last attempt to build a speedbow was called Black Knight.


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