# When to increase bow draw weight?



## G1ngerBreadMan (Oct 5, 2016)

This has probably been asked elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specifically addressing it. I have been working with a bare 35# recurve for about a month now and would like something with abbot more umph for deer and possibly bear. I'm looking at the Bear Grizzly but since it is not a takedown I would need to get the weight I'm gonna stick with. I was hoping to get 45-50# as that should take care of the previously mentioned big game but wasn't sure if that's too big a jump from 35#? How do I know when I'm ready and can I jump 10-15 pounds or is that too much at once?


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Jumping 10-15 pounds is far too big of a jump and you are risking injury at that point. 

A 5# jump even will be bigger than you think it will be. As for how to know when you are ready to go up in draw weight, for me personally it's when my current draw weight start's to become incredibly easy to draw back and hold even at the end of a session shooting 200+ arrows.

You have to keep in mind that if you shoot 100 arrows a session and go up in draw weight by 5# that you will now be pulling an additional 500# of weight total by the end of your shooting session. That's a big deal. 

If you have only been shooting a 35# bow for a month I would stick with that draw weight and just go with some heavier arrows if you are looking to increase how hard your arrows hit.

If you are shooting 350 grain arrows now try building some arrows in the 450-500 grain ball park. 

I would not think about even going up to 40# for at least a year (with lot's of shooting within that year) or else you will be compromising your form.

I'd suggest a 5# jump at the most within a one year period with lot's of shooting. Going up in draw weight too fast and/or jumping up in draw weight by 10# is going to make shooting a workout and a lot less fun very quickly.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

you move up no more than 5# once you are well established in controlling what you are shooting. After only a month...not likely. I'd skip this year and develop a shooting routine for next year.

Can you shoot say 75-100 well placed shots before you start to get tired? If not, you've got some work cut out...if so AND you are controlling each shot (drawing to full anchor, holding as necessary for the shot, letting down if necessary- and it doesn't effect you, clean release on all shots (no plucking))


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## Tereva (Feb 12, 2015)

You can easily jump more than #10 with no problem if the conditions are good.
I've been shooting #30 for like 18 months when I switch to a #42 new bow with absolutely no issue whatsoever. I'm healthy and pretty athletic but I'm not mister muscle and not getting any younger (40+ here).

So bottom line,it is possible. After one month practice? Probably not a good idea.

Cheers T.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

PM sent. You aren't far from me and I have some bows in that range you can try out before you buy.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

This is a prime example why I personally feel there's a huge oversight going on whereby folks have forgotten why many used to order their customers bows with two sets of limbs decades ago but now that the Internet is here?....it seems the new standard for hunting weight bows is the same DW the archer can shoot all day long?

I don't take my 30.06 "plinking" any more than I'd hunt dangerous game with my .22mag.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

JINKSTER said:


> This is a prime example why I personally feel there's a huge oversight going on whereby folks have forgotten why many used to order their customers bows with two sets of limbs decades ago but now that the Internet is here?....it seems the new standard for hunting weight bows is the same DW the archer can shoot all day long?
> 
> I don't take my 30.06 "plinking" any more than I'd hunt dangerous game with my .22mag.


Well to be fair if you can only draw back a bow once or twice even in a hunting situation you are giving up a great degree of accuracy.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JamesThom. said:


> Well to be fair if you can only draw back a bow once or twice even in a hunting situation you are giving up a great degree of accuracy.


Common sense applies.

I can't recall his name but back in the late 60's?...there was a well known Bow Hunter who answered this very question like so....

*"You should be able to draw and loose at least a dozen too two dozen well controlled practice shots accurately with your hunting weight bow...less than that and your over weight....more than that?...and chances are you should go up in poundage." *

I drank the.... "You must be able to shoot a 60 shot 300 indoor Rd with your hunting rig" ...Kool-aid but recently?...

I remembered my roots and spit it out.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

The 60 shot rule sounds good. 

All of the legendary bowhunters of the past could handle their draw weights with ease.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Bill, there's no need to make jabs at light bow suggestions. That Kool-aid comment was unnecessary. Different strokes for different folks; you of all people should respect that.

If we're talking only 12-24 shots, I'd still be hunting with 85#. Yet there are two fat does in the freezer downed with my 47# longbow and neither went more than thirty yards. We're not hunting elephants though. There's a whole thread on TG about animals, including elk, moose, and bison, killed with bows pulling 45# or less. There are plenty of guys who are shooting very good NFAA 300 round scores with bows pulling 55# or more, too. 

Nothing wrong with loading up on power for hunting but that's a choice, too. Some folks, like myself, choose to hunt with the bow they can shoot most accurately. _Different strokes for different folks. _


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## Kali4 (Jan 3, 2016)

kegan said:


> PM sent. You aren't far from me and I have some bows in that range you can try out before you buy.


I would jump on this offer and make sure you bring your check book or you will be sorry! I think you will find that a jump to a 40lb bow is not that big of a difference considering that your 35 is very comfortable currently. Kegans bows will really sling an arrow at 40lbs and they are the best bang for the buck out there. I have a 40lb imperial and got a 47lb Bear AuSable on trade from a friend who wanted a compound. I personally didn't notice a significant difference and can shoot both bows all day but I always choose the Imperial because it is so smooth and much more fun to shoot. The Bear just looks cool on my bow rack! Check out Kegans bows before you decide and if you really want a Grizzly buy one later on ebay with a higher draw weight when you get more practice. IMO the older Bear Bows are cooler and a better deal anyhow.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I choose the middle ground. If you think you want to hunt with say, 45#, then get one. 

Now, instead of trying to shoot that bow all day, shoot it 5 times. Finish your session with the light weight bow. 

If in a few weeks you feel strong enough to shoot it 10 times, go for it.

You should probably warm up with the light one first. Never shoot it more times than you can without the slightest hint of fatigue. You should still feel fresh every time you put the bow down. Keep in mind the numbers I gave were only suggestions. If at any time you over do it, and you will, give that bow a rest for a couple of days. Then go back to the lower number of shots you jumped up from before. Keep in mind, this is about training much like weights, but the consequences of getting injured are higher than most weight related injuries. Being over bowed and drawing with bad form will potentially tear your rotator cuff and that would be the end of archery, throwing a ball, and many other activities in an active lifestyle.

Be patient, go slow, and maintain form at ALL times. DO NOT get rid of your lighter bow! It does no good to shoot 100# bow if you can't control it.


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## 5 Arrow (Nov 20, 2015)

G1ngerBreadMan said:


> This has probably been asked elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specifically addressing it. I have been working with a bare 35# recurve for about a month now and would like something with abbot more umph for deer and possibly bear. I'm looking at the Bear Grizzly but since it is not a takedown I would need to get the weight I'm gonna stick with. I was hoping to get 45-50# as that should take care of the previously mentioned big game but wasn't sure if that's too big a jump from 35#? How do I know when I'm ready and can I jump 10-15 pounds or is that too much at once?



The switch from 35# to 50# would be totally catastrophic. You would be much better off adding rubber elastic bands (Wal-Mart) to your existing bow in 5 lb increments and spend 1/2 hour 3-4 times a week doing the 3 exercises recommended on the USA archery site from Kisik Lees site. Start a log book. Document current and goals. Investing 3-6 months now in yourself will pay off for a lifetime. Of course you will need an accurate bow scale. For fun try adding the 15 lbs all at once will give you a real good understanding. The time you spend training can also be the time you spend saving for that bow you would really would like to have but maybe more that you can spend right now. The rubber bands are around $5.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> The 60 shot rule sounds good.
> 
> All of the legendary bowhunters of the past could handle their draw weights with ease.


That's the story we saw anyway 

It could be true.

I think the bottom line is that you want to hunt with a bow that you can control, under any conditions, not what you can manage to shoot well _sometimes_. 

I still have my 70# recurve, and I tooling around in the yard, I can shoot it accurately for a few ends, maybe close to as accurately as my 46# recurve. I've competed with both a 70# recurve and 70# longbow, and did okay, but in reality, both have become somewhat of a novelty, more about the memories made using them than their use to me now. The extra power is totally unnecessary for what I actually shoot, namely deer, when it isn't foam. The 46# recurve (okay, it's super, but still) puts out an excessive amount of energy for the task. I know it isn't actually true, but if you're taking a broadside shot, it doesn't even look like the arrow slows down. Deer doesn't even seem to know that they've been hit. Last one hopped, turned half a circle, stared at me, started to climb up a hill, and then fell down in a thrashing heap. Found the arrow about ten yards behind where I shot the deer. Burying it deeper into the dirt (or perchance a tree) doesn't get me a whole lot. Having more energy is nicer than not, but if there is _any_ chance it may detract from shot placement, it's not worth it. 

Hunting, you may not be warmed up. I once realized while test drawing, walking around in cold woods with friends, hoping to bump into pigs we scared off, that if you're actually close enough to freezing, that compound bow that you normally pull like a hot wire through butter can become downright stubborn. Weight lifters know this. 

On top of that, you probably won't have had time to get yourself in a shooting rhythm. Those flyers that often happen during warm up, and we don't score, we tend to efficiently erase from memory. 

You might have to hold at full draw longer than you're used to, waiting for the animal to take one step forward to expose the best part of the kill. 

If draw weight gets in the way, you're handicapping yourself for the sake of ego. I remember one year Jimmy Blackmon decided to do his competitive target shooting and hunting with a single bow. It was a 40# standard recurve (Titan II or III) and Samick BF extreme limbs, I think. 40#, 27" draw was what I remember. I also remember a picture of a deer with a pass through. Aside from the shortish riser, this very much fits into the realm of the typical 'target' rig. In other words, the _best_ draw weight for hunting may be significantly _less_ than you can manage to shoot well under the ideal circumstances of your back yard.

Now, I have no experience shooting pigs, bison, buffalo, bear, or whatever, so I'll defer to others who do, but while that 'ideal' weight may shift, the balancing equation is the same. It has to be within the range of weight that you can shoot consistently well, and do to that, it probably should be in a weight range with which you can comfortably practice, because shot placement (and a tuned arrow that goes in straight) is king.

As Matt Potter would like to say, "Even an 80# compound bow doesn't help if you shoulder shoot an elk."


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

BarneySlayer said:


> That's the story we saw anyway
> 
> It could be true.
> 
> ...


Howard Hill would routinely hunt with a 82-85# longbow and even in his 60's would shoot up to 200 arrows a day shooting his 80+# longbow. Byron shoot's year round with his 72# longbow, Fred shot a 70# or so recurve year round.

I think people drawing these high draw weights (55+ pounds) and can only shoot 50 or so arrows before they are very fatigued are only doing themselves a disservice since they are most definitely over bowed. 

Personally I can draw back and hold 65# but I'd never go hunting with it because I'd rather know the trajectory of my normal bow and arrow combination from shooting thousands of arrows with that combination and would rather take the accuracy and control over having more power. 

Obviously a higher draw weight is much more beneficial in every regard (flatter trajectory, harder hitting, more stable arrow flight, and a cleaner release) but this takes time to build up to. 

Too many people are in a rush to go up in draw weight and it's a huge mistake.

I for one, was going to jump up from 35# to 45# but luckily they only had the bow that I wanted in stock at 40# and thank God they did because that 5# jump was bigger than I thought it would be. 

Making the 5# jump I'm not overbowed but if I had to double that and I went with that bow that was 10# heavier my form would of suffered big time and in archery where if you overdraw or underdraw even 1" at 30-40 yards and you are missing the target bow control is the name of the game.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I would highly suggest taking Kegan's offer. He has a great wealth of knowledge, is genuine in his desire to help others and best of all...close to you. 

If you can't get with Kegan, get with another coach. What you're looking for is to identify form issues before they become "ISSUES". Additionally, a good coach can show you drawing techniques that can make the process much easier...drawing with your back for example. Most people I see shooting draw with their shoulders, biceps and triceps...very little back. Once I show them how to engage the back muscles, fatigue is diminished and they generally get full draw quite easily


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

kegan said:


> Bill, there's no need to make jabs at light bow suggestions. That Kool-aid comment was unnecessary. Different strokes for different folks; you of all people should respect that.
> f
> If we're talking only 12-24 shots, I'd still be hunting with 85#. Yet there are two fat does in the freezer downed with my 47# longbow and neither went more than thirty yards. We're not hunting elephants though. There's a whole thread on TG about animals, including elk, moose, and bison, killed with bows pulling 45# or less. There are plenty of guys who are shooting very good NFAA 300 round scores with bows pulling 55# or more, too.
> 
> Nothing wrong with loading up on power for hunting but that's a choice, too. Some folks, like myself, choose to hunt with the bow they can shoot most accurately. _Different strokes for different folks. _


Kegan?...I made no jabs at anyone except myself for allowing myself to believe I must limit MY hunting poundage to a bow I can shoot 60 well executed shots with when a couple dozen I'd fine for what should be a one shot event.

In the future I would appreciate you NOT spinning my words into as ugly of an inference as you possibly can...it's not a nice thing to do to anyone...

"Even Me"


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

James, I'm very much on the same page with a lot of what you're saying, almost everything, though the most notable exception is...



JamesThom. said:


> Obviously a higher draw weight is much more beneficial in every regard (flatter trajectory, harder hitting, more stable arrow flight, and a cleaner release)


Everything else being equal, harder hitting, yes. The rest of it, not necessarily. 

If you scale the arrow mass and fletch reasonably, trajectory within typical hunting distances are going to be pretty equivalent, as arrow speed will be equivalent. If you're trying to compensate for lower draw length by raising relative arrow weight, and therefore efficiency and momentum, fair enough, but that's not a given. 

More stable arrow flight, I haven't seen this myself, nor heard of it before. Can you elaborate on the mechanism for this?

Cleaner release, well, heavier draw weights can mask a bad release, sure, but another way to address this is to simply practice with a lighter bow. I guess I'm not disagreeing with you, if this is what you mean, though I wouldn't weight it as a reason to shoot a heavier draw weight. To me, the best reason would be, that you need more energy/momentum in the arrow, and it doesn't negatively impact our shooting, with a degree of margin for unpredicted circumstances. In that case, I don't think we're of differing opinions at all.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Fury90flier said:


> I would highly suggest taking Kegan's offer. He has a great wealth of knowledge, is genuine in his desire to help others and best of all...close to you.
> 
> If you can't get with Kegan, get with another coach. What you're looking for is to identify form issues before they become "ISSUES". Additionally, a good coach can show you drawing techniques that can make the process much easier...drawing with your back for example. Most people I see shooting draw with their shoulders, biceps and triceps...very little back. Once I show them how to engage the back muscles, fatigue is diminished and they generally get full draw quite easily


Seriously. I would LOVE to have an opportunity to hook up with Kegan, audition bows, and inevitably get one in the pipeline. Talk about a 'Turn Key' Solution....



JINKSTER said:


> Kegan?...I made no jabs at anyone except myself for allowing myself to believe I must limit MY hunting poundage to a bow I can shoot 60 well executed shots with when a couple dozen I'd fine for what should be a one shot event.


I'd have to agree that 60 well executed shots, if you truly mean well executed shots and relatively consecutively, is a pretty high bar for hunting, though i guess that depends on what you mean by well-executed. 60 shots is a NFAA blue face 300 round. I would think that 60 well executed shots would put you in the 270+ range. Of course, if you mean simply being able to make it to full draw and hold without shaking, probably not high enough of a bar, in my opinion. Does it mean pie plate at 10-15 Yards? I guess it begs the question, regarding that standard, what a well-executed shot means? No flubs? No flyers?


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## 5 Arrow (Nov 20, 2015)

JamesThom. said:


> Howard Hill would routinely hunt with a 82-85# longbow and even in his 60's would shoot up to 200 arrows a day shooting his 80+# longbow. Byron shoot's year round with his 72# longbow, Fred shot a 70# or so recurve year round.
> 
> I think people drawing these high draw weights (55+ pounds) and can only shoot 50 or so arrows before they are very fatigued are only doing themselves a disservice since they are most definitely over bowed.
> 
> ...


So much talk about Howard, Fred and Bryon shooting heavy draw weight bows but very little (Ooops None) about the training regiments these archers used to condition themselves to shoot these bows. Don't expect to take off for 6 months and be able to pick up where you left off with that 50-60lb recurve bow. Bows of that draw weight are yearlong, life long commitments. That is if one intends to hit anything with a reasonable amount of consistency. Grizzle and Moose Bowhunters fall into the lifelong category.


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## penumbra (Aug 23, 2016)

I see no problem with going from 30# to 45# assuming that the issue is not a contest of strength. What is the problem of having a bow in each poundage? I do think that a 30# bow is a great practice tool and I use a 30# and a 35# most often in extended practicing bouts. However, I usually end up shooting some shots at 40# and 45# or more in the same session. Generally I warm up with a 30# or 35# bow, but not always. But I have to say that to wait a year to buy another bow makes no sense to me at all. I have bought bows in 30#, 35#, 38#, 40# 52# and 56# this year alone. And having tested the pull on these bows and finding them pretty accurate, I can tell you that they do not all pull the same pound for pound. I do have a favorite 40# longbow that works better for me than a 30# longbow I have. And even though it costs much less, my 35# Samick Sage requires almost no effort at all to hold. I do admit that I seldom hold any of my bows for more than 2 to 4 seconds before release. It doesn't feel like a snap shot to me. 
Of course one must factor one's strength. I would certainly take Keegan up on his offer. I have an unfinished Omega from him that I like very much.
Thank you for posting. It has been fun to read.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

5 Arrow said:


> So much talk about Howard, Fred and Bryon shooting heavy draw weight bows but very little (Ooops None) about the training regiments these archers used to condition themselves to shoot these bows. Don't expect to take off for 6 months and be able to pick up where you left off with that 50-60lb recurve bow. Bows of that draw weight are yearlong, life long commitments. That is if one intends to hit anything with a reasonable amount of consistency. Grizzle and Moose Bowhunters fall into the lifelong category.


All of my shooting, year round, is done with 50-60# bows. Indoor, outdoor, 3D, spots, stumping, flu flus... It is possible to do all of your shooting with your preferred rig. When I'm shooting mediocre, I average 220-240 300 blue face rounds. I know it isn't world class shooting, but it does beat many shooting similar bows of less DW.

don't get me wrong. I do have a 30# setup for form repair and maintenance. A light bow is very important for such things, but all of my real, serious shooting, to include competing, is done with a bow of at least 50#. 

I am not saying it is for everyone, but it works for me and it can be done. I view it as a benefit to not have to learn a different bow for each "season."


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## ghostdncr (Jul 18, 2016)

We are all different in both mindset and physicality. Personally, I only realize a significant increase in performance when I push myself to shoot substantially heavier draw weights. Now, I am a bigger guy with considerable muscle mass in my upper body, and my muscles, connective tissues, and joints have been exposed to considerable stress over the years. I think a fifteen pound jump anywhere in double-digit draw weights is totally doable, FOR ME. When -I- get up over 100 lbs advances need to slow into the 5-7lb range. I only throw this out there to highlight that there are some good general guidelines, but one size does not necessarily fit all.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

BarneySlayer said:


> James, I'm very much on the same page with a lot of what you're saying, almost everything, though the most notable exception is...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That''s great that we agree.

Let me explain the things I brought up in more detail though.

Yes you can get a lower poundage bow to shoot just as high of an fps as a higher poundage bow if they are shooting the same GPP. The problem comes in when you factor drag into play. Fletching will slow down a lighter arrow much quicker than it will a heavier arrow. Therefore we can say that a heavier arrow is faster since it will arrive at target faster because it maintains it's velocity significantly better than a lighter arrow. 

Also as you go up in draw weight the bow becomes more efficient. D style longbow's as an example hit maximum efficiency around 70# according to Byron. This means that any draw weight lower than that and the limbs will not be contracting back as quickly as they can. This means that even if the GPP stays the same between a light draw longbow and a 70# draw longbow the 70# longbow which has reached maximum efficiency will cast that arrow faster than the lighter longbow.

This applies to recurves as well but typically recurves will hit maximum efficiency at a much lower draw weight than longbows since the recurve uses much less wood in it's limbs.

As for more stable arrow flight, a heavier arrow will be significantly less effected by the wind. 

If you fish at all, go out fishing on a day when you have a headwind blowing towards you at upwards of 25mph and try casting out a 2oz sinker on your line, you will quickly see that the cast you get is terrible and your line will be blown well off course. 

Now try tying on a 4oz sinker and you will see that just doubling the weight negates any effect the wind has on your cast besides distance.

I proved this to myself while out fishing right before a big storm hit and thought about how it effects arrow flight as well.

With a heavier draw weight you can shoot a heavier arrow which will be more stable and thus not be effected by the wind, twigs, leaves, and so on.

As an extreme example to explain things more clearly let's say that we spined up an arrow made out of foam that was 100 grains and compare it to a 400 grain arrow. 

That 100 grain arrow shot out of a 40# recurve will be very unstable in flight and easily will be thrown off course and lose it's velocity very quickly. On the other hand the 400 grain arrow will fly true down range and will be vastly less effected by the wind and will not lose as much down range velocity.

If we put 4" feathers on both arrows the 100 grain arrow probably won't even make it past 20 yards whereas the 400 grain arrow will be less effected drag wise by the 4" feathers.

This is what I'm talking about when I mentioned that a heavier arrow is a more stable arrow. 

I agree that it's possible to get a clean release with any draw weight but even if we give the best archer in the world a 20# bow and a 50# bow I'd put any amount of money on it that even with his world class clean release that he will be able to obtain a more consistent cleaner release with the 50# bow over the 20# bow if we let him shoot 60 arrows out of each bow and compare his groupings.

A heavier draw weight is better in every way but takes years to build up too. I see too many people wanting to jump to 55# within one year which will only lead to injury, poor form, and fatigue. Shooting a bow one can handle very well even in a hunting situation is a true joy.



5 Arrow said:


> So much talk about Howard, Fred and Bryon shooting heavy draw weight bows but very little (Ooops None) about the training regiments these archers used to condition themselves to shoot these bows. Don't expect to take off for 6 months and be able to pick up where you left off with that 50-60lb recurve bow. Bows of that draw weight are yearlong, life long commitments. That is if one intends to hit anything with a reasonable amount of consistency. Grizzle and Moose Bowhunters fall into the lifelong category.


You missed my point. My point was that nearly all of the great hunters of the past used the same draw weight for hunting that they did for all other forms of archery.

Howard never over bowed himself shooting 170#+ bows on his hunts and neither did Fred to my knowledge. 

Changing bow's and draw weights screw's up your accuracy since your mind is trained to see a certain trajectory coming from the draw weight and arrows that you shoot the most. 

However that being said, changing draw weight and quickly learning a new trajectory is a skill in and of itself and I have noticed the more I shoot the quicker I can shoot a heavier or lighter arrow and shoot relatively accurate since my subconscious mind has become and continues to become quicker at "sighting in" each trajectory.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

JINKSTER said:


> This is a prime example why I personally feel there's a huge oversight going on...it seems the new standard for hunting weight bows is the same DW the archer can shoot all day long?





JINKSTER said:


> I drank the.... "You must be able to shoot a 60 shot 300 indoor Rd with your hunting rig" ...Kool-aid but recently?...
> 
> I remembered my roots and spit it out.


Bill, these are negative comments made about using a single draw moderate weight for various applications, claiming that it is an "oversight" and insinuating it is simply product of the internet. 

I did no twisting and did not attack you. I simply responded to your negative comments.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

kegan said:


> Bill, these are negative comments made about using a single draw moderate weight for various applications, claiming that it is an "oversight" and insinuating it is simply product of the internet.
> 
> I did no twisting and did not attack you. I simply responded to your negative comments.


Kegan?...I claim nothing as an oversight and if there was one?....it's on your part.

I simply expressed my personal opinion on the matter and changes that *"I"* went through regarding such.

Out of over 330 views and over 2 dozen replies you were the only one to decide to make something of it and take offense?

This isn't the first time you've spun my words out of context to create an opportunity to speak to me in public as though your name were on my birth certificate.

At this point?...I'll patiently await your apology.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

You guys,

Miscommunication is a common thing.

It is also easily fixed, if it isn't important who made the mistake, who's right, or who's wrong.

How important is being right?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JamesThom. said:


> Yes you can get a lower poundage bow to shoot just as high of an fps as a higher poundage bow if they are shooting the same GPP. The problem comes in when you factor drag into play. Fletching will slow down a lighter arrow much quicker than it will a heavier arrow....
> 
> ....
> As for more stable arrow flight, a heavier arrow will be significantly less effected by the wind.


Gotcha, and a valid points, though that also assumes the same aerodynamic/fletching profile. Not to be merely argumentative, but that's not a given. I use much smaller fletching on my 400 gn arrows than I do on my 600 gn arrows. I realize I'm in error to assume it, but I was thinking in terms of a hunting scenario, in which case, I am likely also in error to assume it, but in such thinking shorter distances like inside 20 yards, where the effects of drag, or wind drift for that matter, would be minimal. Actually, I don't think I'd launch an arrow at an animal in significant wind, as the correction provided by the fletching, steering it into the wind, which minimizes the drift, would guarantee that the arrow is hitting the target at an angle, relative to it's actual path and direction of impact. 



> Also as you go up in draw weight the bow becomes more efficient. D style longbow's as an example hit maximum efficiency around 70# according to Byron. This means that any draw weight lower than that and the limbs will not be contracting back as quickly as they can. This means that even if the GPP stays the same between a light draw longbow and a 70# draw longbow the 70# longbow which has reached maximum efficiency will cast that arrow faster than the lighter longbow.


Speaking generally, this is true, up to whatever point is dictated by design/materials. However, it is also true that lower poundage bows, everything else being equal, will be more comfortable, both to the user and in terms of operating within the bow's operating range, whatever that is. We use the GPP metric because it's easy, but a 35# bow of the same design can safely/comfortably shoot a lighter GPP, if you're using that metric, than the 70# bow, because even if it is less efficient, there's less of that excess energy to deal with after the shot. Most extreme example is a PVC training bow. Can dry fire those all you want, 0 GPP.

In a very limited (and admittedly hardly definitive) sample of my own bows, my 70# recurve spits a 560 gn arrow about 198 fps. My 54# recurve spits a 432 gn arrow about 200 fps. My 46# recurve spits a 418 gn arrow about 198 fps.



> I agree that it's possible to get a clean release with any draw weight but even if we give the best archer in the world a 20# bow and a 50# bow I'd put any amount of money on it that even with his world class clean release that he will be able to obtain a more consistent cleaner release with the 50# bow over the 20# bow if we let him shoot 60 arrows out of each bow and compare his groupings.


Oh, yes, I think I was on a different page as far as where on the scale we were talking. There is certainly a happy place, where fatigue is minimal, but it is also forgiving of form errors. I was imagining a scenario where people were working up to more and more weight with the idea that they were going to get cleaner releases. They might, but they're also courting bow arm flailing, collapsing, whatever. Thanks for clarifying.



> A heavier draw weight is better in every way but takes years to build up too. I see too many people wanting to jump to 55# within one year which will only lead to injury, poor form, and fatigue. Shooting a bow one can handle very well even in a hunting situation is a true joy.


I think I understand what you're getting at, and with the qualification that you actually can shoot it as well or better than a lighter bow, consistently, I wouldn't argue it. However, I think that most people might misunderstand and seek advantages that are relatively minimal in many contexts, paying penalties they think they can just work through. I can personally testify to that route. I got back into archery as an adult, after playing it with a kid, and walked into an archery shop. I walked out with a 58" 55# bow with limbs too short, arrows too light and too stiff, and instructions of index finger to the corner of the mouth, and look at where you want to hit. I then, with some encouragement, worked up to a 70# longbow, followed by a 70# recurve. I was definitley 'strong enough', but the draw weight, and lack of proper instruction, made it a really steep long learning curve. If I were going at it all over, I'd probably tell myself to start with 25#, and refer myself Ben Rogers, offer to buy him lunches for a year, or something like that... It's not that I don't believe that heavy bows can't be shot very well. They obviously can, but as you say, it takes awhile, and few actually ever do.



> Changing bow's and draw weights screw's up your accuracy since your mind is trained to see a certain trajectory coming from the draw weight and arrows that you shoot the most.


Though, couldn't you match arrow speed and drag coefficient and just call it happy, if you were so inclined?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

JINKSTER said:


> At this point?...I'll patiently await your apology.


Bill, you publicly addressed a topic that applies to me personally. I offered a public rebuttal defending it. I did not attack you. You offered no clarification before getting offended. This is not the first time you've assumed the worst of me.

I'm sorry you feel victimized; hopefully in the future we can both take steps to elaborate our stances without taking personal offense.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

It’s always been my practice…and I’ve always said…that a weight increase is reasonable when the bow you are shooting becomes easy to shoot. That said, it’s almost discouraging to hear someone is selling their bow to get another, in the process.

My sense is that it would better to gradually break into the new draw weight while still shooting the lower weight bow. Of course, the amount of shooting a person does factors into the equation…and that’s pretty much an unknown in many similar discussions.

I can shoot just about as much as I’d like…so I tend to overdo things, which I would advise against…but, for those with less of an opportunity to shoot, I would favor the recommendation of smaller increases.

Good Luck with your decision…Rick.


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## G1ngerBreadMan (Oct 5, 2016)

Sorry I feel off the face of the earth there, phone went flying onto the highway and smashed to bits so been dealing with that. Hoping that financial hit doesnt take me out of the running for a new bow but it may. 

Also I wanted to clarify a few things and I speak collectively since many responded. I am not selling my 35# bow I intend to keep it for practice and possible hunting/back up. Also, I shoot about 100 arrows in a session before I feel fatigue so I have no idea if I began with a low weight and could move up or if this is sufficient. Also, the guy who helped me get setup told me that 35# is not god to hunt deer with but Ive seen others say 35# is just fine for deer. Certainly seems with the right broadhead and arrow it would hit the vitals just fine but idk. Thoughts on whether this old bow could down a deer are welcomed. Its getting colder here in PA and Id love to get out there ASAP.

Also, I have been weight lifting whole body for several months now which I think has helped with my overall handeling of the bow. Again, not sure how long it takes to get to the point where its obvious its time to bump draw weight but if I can shoot 100 arrows with little fatigue I assumed that would be an indicator. 

Ill surely bein touch with Kegan. Appreciate all the help and commentary here.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

G1ngerBreadMan said:


> Also, the guy who helped me get setup told me that 35# is not god to hunt deer with but Ive seen others say 35# is just fine for deer. Certainly seems with the right broadhead and arrow it would hit the vitals just fine but idk. Thoughts on whether this old bow could down a deer are welcomed. Its getting colder here in PA and Id love to get out there ASAP.


The answer really is, _it depends_. All else being equal, we'd rather have a bit of margin of stored energy, _just because_, but not if it impacts accuracy.

Hunting with 35#, if it meets game law requirements, _could be_ entirely fine. My wife's 35# recurve satisfies basic KE guidelines, last I checked, for hunting deer. As for your particular bow, with you shooting it, it's not enough to say. More info please...

The marked draw weight itself, doesn't actually tell us enough. 

Do you know your _actual_ holding weight, for instance? Aside from the draw weight differing with draw length, rated bow weights, as marked, are rounded to 5 pound increments, either up or down, because they're easier to sell (and stock) that way.

The draw length also makes a difference, by a LOT. Not only does a 35# bow become heavier when you draw it past the rated draw length, the power stroke increases, meaning that somebody shooting a 35# bow with a 30" draw is putting in, and getting out, a lot more energy than the same somebody shooting that same bow, but drawing to 26". Side trivia, another reason to not be careful about 'overbowing', is that if the draw weight steers you into drawing shorter, whatever you gain in holding weight you may be giving up (or more) in power stroke, in which case it not only detracts from accuracy, but it defeats the intended purpose in terms of penetration.

How heavy are your arrows? Have you or your friend verified arrow speed with a chronograph? Calculating KE or momentum isn't going to give you a hard answer, but it's a better answer than anything inferred by merely the holding weight marked on the bow 

What bow do you have now anyway? If it is a fairly affordable take down, I'd suggest simply getting heavier limbs to play with. A 40# conventional recurve, with well tuned arrows, 400+ gn arrows, razor sharp cut on contact broadheads, and a 28" or longer draw, in my opinion, would be fine for deer.


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## G1ngerBreadMan (Oct 5, 2016)

My draw length is 28.5. 

I do not know my hold weight but the bow length is 60 inches. 

I do not know how heavy my arrows are and not sure how to find that out. 

The bow is form 1958, its just called Locksly and is not a takedown. Its pretty plain Jane.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

How long have you been shooting for?

If you have only been shooting for a month you could most definitely jump up to 40# in a year while not being over bowed.

If you just started shooting barebow I would not worry about hunting within my first year.


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## G1ngerBreadMan (Oct 5, 2016)

JamesThom. said:


> If you just started shooting barebow I would not worry about hunting within my first year.


What makes you say that?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

James will answer for himself, of course, but I think _in general_ it is sound advice, but that doesn't mean you can't hunt, but that for most people, it would be a tall order, becoming proficient enough with a single string bow, with a draw weight heavy enough to hunt with. On top of that, after you learn to shoot consistently, then you can tune arrows, which is one more process. It's difficult to fit all of that into the span of time between now and the end of your deer season, whenever that is.

However...


If you actually shoot with a 28 1/2" draw...
If you hook up with Kegan, and find shooting with one of his bows in the low forties to be comfortable and more importantly shoots consistent for you...
If you can swing a deal you can work out with Kegan (whose bows are tremendous performers for the money especially if you buy it 'unfinished' and sand/stain/seal yourself), and as a result you get a smooth shooting, _hard-hitting_ bow that fits you...
If you practice regularly, and aren't against learning either an explicit aiming system, or (don't say it too loud, using a sight)...
If You're an experienced hunter (or just lucky) and can actually get pretty close, like 10 yards or under, and are okay with passing on shots if you're unsure...

I don't know why you can't go for it.

For your situation, I would definitely take up Kegan's offer, and at least get a feel for things. He's a great resource, and you're lucky he's nearby  If you end up buying something, eventually, his customer service is awesome too 


If you decide to end up passing on the season, you're only that much more prepared for the next. Good luck!


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

G1ngerBreadMan said:


> What makes you say that?


I'm going with experience.

With a compound, I can have someone "hunting ready" in a week or less...likely a weekend (a few, same day). With a traditional bow that time frame is stretched to many months, if not longer...it's simply that much more difficult. The reason for the difficulty is nothing more than holding weight...much easier to control 15# than it is 40#+. While many will claim they can pull X amount of hunting weight bow, in most cases they simply can't control it. With that extra weight a person's form and ability to hold still through the shot is significantly reduced. A shooter is by far better off spending time developing the muscles necessary to control the shot...limits the missed or bad shots that injure the game.


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

I would stop by and see Keagan, Probably your best source, Bows to shoot, tip;s ect Your accuracy should determine when you can hunt , with a legal hunting weight, (#40) here in Ohio, and you can determine how far out you are accurate to. And set your hunting parameters from there


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

G1ngerBreadMan said:


> What makes you say that?


Proficiency with this type of bow is hard won. 

Once buck fever sets in, you loose all ability to control many fine motor skills. If you have muscle memory to fall back on, it can be a world of difference. It could mean the difference between dinner, and a wounded deer running around in agony before the infection finally takes him out.

A month isn't enough time to intimately know a bow and an arrow's trajectory from that bow at a given yardage.

Stick with it. You will get there. The more quality shots you can put into a session, and the more frequent those quality sessions are, the quicker you will get where you want to be. 

Personally, I let bow hunting season past me by this year. I wanted to, but did not feel my execution with my preferred bow was bomb proof enough to ethically shoot at my prey. All that despite the fact that several bow hunters I shoot with regularly told me they would rather I shoot elk @ 30 yrds with my bow than many guys they run into in the woods @ 20yrds with thier wheel bows.

It is about honest self analysis, and I know me. I've been doing this for over a year. It could be possible I'm being overly cautious, but I feel I owe it to the critters to make sure they do not suffer needlessly.

Good luck and good shooting.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

I just checked PA’s game laws and 35# is the minimum draw weight…so that’s doable.

Just starting out you should dismiss nearly everyone else’s limitations…’cause all have them. The distance someone else shoots a critter does not matter…what matters is what you honestly know you can do. I would never tell a person who is proficient at 5 yards not to go hunting…just become a better (or lucky) hunter and don’t shoot beyond that range.

Doubt is not what you want going in…and regret is not what you want walking out. Rick.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

rickstix said:


> I just checked PA’s game laws and 35# is the minimum draw weight…so that’s doable.
> 
> Just starting out you should dismiss nearly everyone else’s limitations…’cause all have them. The distance someone else shoots a critter does not matter…what matters is what you honestly know you can do. I would never tell a person who is proficient at 5 yards not to go hunting…just become a better (or lucky) hunter and don’t shoot beyond that range.
> 
> Doubt is not what you want going in…and regret is not what you want walking out. Rick.


I'm going to have to disagree with you, only being able to shoot within 5 yards is not good enough for hunting. 

Not to mention his whole first year is going to be figuring this thing out known as traditional archery. This is going to require shooting A LOT of arrows, figuring out how to tune your arrows, adjust brace height, tab or glove, shooting from different angles, what fletching works best for him, what arrow weight works best for him, what shooting method works best for him, and so on and so on.

To just go out and suggest someone new to start hunting because they can hit a paper plate from 5 yards is not reasonable. Do you know how difficult it is getting within 5 yards of a critter without it spotting you? That amount of hunting skill alone takes most people over a decade to get to. 

Chances are if he were to go hunting now he would not only be putting his life in danger of getting mauled by a deer or another animal, but he will also risk injuring whatever deer or animal that he only manages to hurt because he got excited and took a shot past 5 yards which will make him feel like crap and could end his hunting "career" right there. 

This is why I suggested that he wait at least a year before considering taking up hunting with a stick bow. 

It's for his own benefit and the benefit of animals that deserve the utmost respect which means being a great shot, a great hunter, and an ethical hunter. These are skills that require time to develop.

There's also a ton of fun to be had in archery besides just hunting of which he should do within his first year which will also prepare him for when he is ready to hunt.


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## G1ngerBreadMan (Oct 5, 2016)

I appreciate the feedback. To be honest, Ive hunted rifle since I was a teenager and each year I would spend a few dozen rounds sighting in the gun and getting comfortable with the weapon at different yards. Total time was maybe one or two days out of a handful of weekends prior to rifle. Id consider that a fairly low amount of time put in and each year I came back with a deer except for one and the shots were always well placed.

I recognize that absolutely trad archery takes much more time and investment into training and of course doesnt carry the same KE as a bullet. However I think its a stretch to tell someone to shoot hundreds of arrows daily for a year before they could consider hunting an animal the same distance as their targets. Im not going out to compete professionally with a narrow margin on a target, deer have a fairly large area one can hit to kill them ethically. Ive also known many guys who have trained in the way suggested and still get terrible shots or miss entirely. The way I see it is if I can consistently hit the kill zone over the course of many training sessions then they stand as much chance as the next guy to down a deer. I have trained at 10-15 yards and have a good assessment of the distance between me and the target and of course wouldnt take a shot if I didnt think it would give a humane kill. If it was beyond 20 yards I wouldnt even consider it both because I wouldnt have trained that distance as well as my confidence in a 35# bow to get the job done. 

Most likely I am going to attempt a very close range hunt and see what I can do. I havent decided for sure yet but I also dont feel like waiting an entire year before I can even use the bow for what I intended it for. Im not saying anyone here is necessarily wrong but I think a lot of the hesitation comes down to each individual person, one person with the same amount of training may not be a good idea for them to consider it while another person may be just fine. My hope is that I fall into the second category. Thanks again for all the input!


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Shooting a rifle and a stick bow are two completelty different animals. All that I have to say is good luck. 

Hunting within a few months of picking up your first bow in my opinion is foolish as you are putting your life and well being in danger and seriously risk injuring an animal without recovering it especially with a 35# bow that does not have much power to break bones in case you miss the vitals. 

You don't have to shoot hundreds of arrows every day but you do need to understand bare shaft tuning, broadhead tuning, brace height tuning, among other things.

10-15 yards is going to turn into 20-30 yards when there's a big deer in front of you since chances are your heart will be racing out of your chest and you can throw the 10-15 yard accuracy out of the window. 

You will be relying on your 20-30 yard accuracy when you are shaking and your adrenaline is pumping.

Shot's in the woods are also a lot longer than they appear to be shooting a standard target as well. A 10 yard shot in the woods is going to look like a 20 yard shot in an open field on a standard target.


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