# What does TYD mean?



## Mathew Lyman (Feb 25, 2017)

to yer door dude


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## cp25od (Feb 9, 2017)

I would have assumed the same. tyd means shipping included. PayPal fees are agreed upon separately. Since he did not address the PayPal fees before agreeing I would feel it's assumed that he will incur the fee. 


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## RangerX (Apr 18, 2014)

Two young does ???:teeth:


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

I can see both sides. Another way to look at it is this.......did he get $70 from you?

Kind of funny.......I recently sold a bunch of items to probably 10 different guys. 9 of the 10 sent PP via F&F so no fee, and only 1 out of the 10 sent it normal with fees deducted. I didn't stipulate for either way, but seems like most people these days send it F&F. I don't care one way or the other normally........unless it's a large dollar item. But then it's all negotiated ahead of time before payment is sent.


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## Blackeagle1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Tyd. All fees included. He was crying about $1.11?


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## Frank-the-5th (Apr 3, 2014)

Blackeagle1 said:


> Tyd. All fees included. He was crying about $1.11?


Agreed, when I post something tyd that covers shipping and the PayPal fee


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## crashdummy6 (Apr 20, 2010)

"To Your Door" implies paypal fees included unless otherwise stated.

And anyone paying with F and F are taking unnecessary risks. You lose much of the protection offered by Paypal to keep you from getting scammed. Fair Warning.


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## milje2010 (Apr 11, 2017)

Frank-the-5th said:


> Agreed, when I post something tyd that covers shipping and the PayPal fee
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Should have a mod/admin put this in the classified rules. I can't stand when people nag about the 3%. It should be clearly specified in every classified post.


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## Frank-the-5th (Apr 3, 2014)

milje2010 said:


> Should have a mod/admin put this in the classified rules. I can't stand when people nag about the 3%. It should be clearly specified in every classified post.


I agree, they should add it on to their price when they put the post up. If they want $700 for a bow and have fees covered they should just ask for $721


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

I've always understood TYD to mean total cost to the buyer, which includes the item, S&H, and paypal fee, *but not* expedited delivery, insurance or signature receipt. - John


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Frank-the-5th said:


> I agree, they should add it on to their price when they put the post up. If they want $700 for a bow and have fees covered they should just ask for $721


Try that and see how that works out for you. That $721 starting price turns into offers of $400-$600. Now where are the fees that you supposedly "added in"? LOL. This is why everything must be negotiated......down to whatever payment method is used, and any fees associated with that.


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## Frank-the-5th (Apr 3, 2014)

5MilesBack said:


> Try that and see how that works out for you. That $721 starting price turns into offers of $400-$600. Now where are the fees that you supposedly "added in"? LOL. This is why everything must be negotiated......down to whatever payment method is used, and any fees associated with that.


Not how I sell things, so it's irrelevant to me. Just saying maybe for the guys who are anal about receiving the 3% fee they should start factoring that into their price 


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## edthearcher (Nov 2, 2002)

to your door shipping has to be neg.


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## duckdawg1 (May 4, 2010)

Frank-the-5th said:


> Not how I sell things, so it's irrelevant to me. Just saying maybe for the guys who are anal about receiving the 3% fee they should start factoring that into their price
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. And sending F&F gives you no protection. I've done it a few times on some items and t. Made me a little unsettled until I received my item.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

I think the OP is in error since he plainly offered less and the seller sent a note that he "missed".....which I would take as a counter offer. Having been on both sides of numerous AT transactions, if I offer less and the person counters with covering paypal fees, I know what I am agreeing to. TYD covers the shipping costs, but I recently sold a bow and the supposedly trivial 3% reduction was significant. Sorry OP, but I think it would be good form to send him a couple bucks just out of good relations.


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## ppkaprince98 (Mar 13, 2008)

cp25od said:


> I would have assumed the same. tyd means shipping included. PayPal fees are agreed upon separately. Since he did not address the PayPal fees before agreeing I would feel it's assumed that he will incur the fee.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats how i see it also. 


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## cnvf250 (Oct 15, 2012)

I look at it like buying a car from a dealer. TYD translates to Out the door. Taxes, title, and all the other little fees. 
If it is a large item I will some times put how much I want plus buyer pays or splits shipping cost. However that will be clearly stated in the post. 



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## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

Its quite simple....and the asking price, negotiated price, final price has no bearing on this.


If seller is accepting paypal as a payment method, then seller is accepting the FEES that paypal CHARGES the seller to use paypal.
The FINAL dollar amount the seller agrees to, needs to capture the net amount they want to get.

Just like TYD listing.....the seller assumes some loss of net based on shipping.

Technically, "TYD" has nothing to do with implying paypal fees are included......but the fact the seller lists a price payable via paypal, the seller has signed themselves up for losses based on paypal fees. 

In this case, everyone is picking fly***** out of pepper.
I don't think you are responsible for the extra 3%.....only because he accepts paypal (not based on the tyd statement).
He should have negotiated to the price of $71.11 if he wanted 70 into his pp account (before shipping).


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

To me TYD means To My Door and the price is the price, if you want me to pay YOUR paypal fees on top of that or family & friends, sorry I walk away


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## outback32 (Jul 29, 2010)

All I know is when I sell something on here. Tyd means everything included. Not everything but PayPal fees.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Blackeagle1 said:


> Tyd. All fees included. He was crying about $1.11?


I always laugh when I see people thinking this way, isn't it the same $1.11 that BOTH sides are crying about?

I agree with Alaska, the seller sent a note to add the fees, just add the $1.11 and not ask for a refund.

I just bought a sight from a real good seller, price was good so I didn't waste either of our time trying to low ball with an offer, I sent the money then for some reason went back to the add and saw that I missed the part where he stated plus Paypal fees, so I sent the fees separate, I doubt he would have said anything but I wasn't going to cheat him out of a couple bucks either.

Last rant, I feel sending money through Paypal as a gift to avoid the fees is chicken shhit, Paypal is a business and is providing a service that they should get paid for, if you don't want to pay them for their service the next time you buy something drive to the post office, buy a money order (that costs you money) drive home, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it, send it and wait till the seller receives it, then (now that he has your money) hope he sends you the item you wanted. Then two weeks after you bought the MO you might get your item and you can think how smart you were to spend an hour at the post office and driving back and forth, paying for the MO and stamp, and waiting an extra week to get your item and had no recourse if you didn't receive it,all to save 3%


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## bms (Apr 28, 2015)

Alaska at heart said:


> I think the OP is in error since he plainly offered less and the seller sent a note that he "missed".....which I would take as a counter offer. Having been on both sides of numerous AT transactions, if I offer less and the person counters with covering paypal fees, I know what I am agreeing to. TYD covers the shipping costs, but I recently sold a bow and the supposedly trivial 3% reduction was significant. Sorry OP, but I think it would be good form to send him a couple bucks just out of good relations.


 Alaska, just to be clear, my offer was $70tyd, he replied "sure", at that point I believe the deal is done. I replied "send me your PayPal info", he did and that is where I did miss the note about 3%, but as far as I'm concerned the deal was done. Do you still stand by your statement? I'm not trying to get in a pissin match, I just want to be clear what we are saying. Now if I would have offered $70, and he came back with "sure, plus 3%", I would have to agree with you. It's not a big deal either way it's a couple bucks, it just irked me it was "after" he accepted, and then told me what Tyd means, which I have a different definition of, maybe it's not a question of what tyd means, maybe a question of when the deal is done. In my response I did say "if you don't want it just refund it". After I told him that is when he gave me his definition of TYD. I'm not saying your wrong, Alaska, just wanted to make sure you knew the order the conversation took.


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## Gamover06 (Aug 20, 2014)

So TYD to me means final price sent to your door. I never send as friends and family. Most of the time people don't even talk pay pal fees because its part of selling and the seller should be swallowing the fee unless specified in the add. I usually send split the pay apl fees out of a sign of good faith as a buyer. so if it was $70 TYD I would send him $71 just to pay part of the fee. If it was $700 TYD I would send him $710 to cover some of the fees.


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## bms (Apr 28, 2015)

thawk said:


> I always laugh when I see people thinking this way, isn't it the same $1.11 that BOTH sides are crying about?
> 
> I agree with Alaska, the seller sent a note to add the fees, just add the $1.11 and not ask for a refund.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you, it's only a couple bucks , I'm not really upset about it, just future reference for when I buy a item that the 3% would make a difference. Yes I know when that happens just be clear about everything. I thought I was clear TYD means "done" to me, thought it was that way for everyone. If we are going to use abbreviations, we all must understand what the abbreviation means, right?


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## Larry brown (Aug 17, 2013)

I have been nice and added the fees in for items under 100 and depending on how bad I want item and the discount for other stuff but if it's a bow I assume it's in there. That's me. I don't do it unless it's a low ball and I will say it in the negotiations.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

bms said:


> I have to agree with you, it's only a couple bucks , I'm not really upset about it, just future reference for when I buy a item that the 3% would make a difference. Yes I know when that happens just be clear about everything. I thought I was clear TYD means "done" to me, thought it was that way for everyone. If we are going to use abbreviations, we all must understand what the abbreviation means, right?


I'm not saying your wrong for the way you were thinking, I would have felt that the $70 (TYD) would be my final price too. But....
You told to Alaska "it wasn't a big deal" but you asked for a refund over $1.11 the seller did ask for the fees but he was the one that in the end felt it wasn't a big deal. 
If I'm getting an item for 70% of the sellers original asking price, I would have never asked for a refund or if I'm willing to come down 30% from my original asking price I would not even bother asking for the $1.11 

But as to your question I would think TYD is the final price


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## slimgravy (Mar 27, 2016)

I believe it's against policy of PayPal to charge that 3% to the buyer. 

That 3% is the cost of doing biz and the finance company providing the seller with Some sort of convenience and insurance for that trans action.

Id give up that 3% for that piece of mind and to have the money asap in my acct any day.

I will never buy anything from someone that says plus pp fees. The seller eats the fees, just like every store you walk into. You pay with a card and they pay the transaction fee. Big stores loose millions, small places loose thousands... 

But to the tyd question... final cost to get it to you... nothing more.


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## slingingstix (Sep 29, 2011)

Total price to your door - should include all shipping and fees.


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## bms (Apr 28, 2015)

thawk said:


> I'm not saying your wrong for the way you were thinking, I would have felt that the $70 (TYD) would be my final price too. But....
> You told to Alaska "it wasn't a big deal" but you asked for a refund over $1.11 the seller did ask for the fees but he was the one that in the end felt it wasn't a big deal.
> If I'm getting an item for 70% of the sellers original asking price, I would have never asked for a refund or if I'm willing to come down 30% from my original asking price I would not even bother asking for the $1.11
> 
> But as to your question I would think TYD is the final price


 I didn't ask for the refund, I said "if you don't want it just refund the money" and that is when the seller told me what TYD meant, by his definition, after he had already accepted the $70tyd, I agree it's pretty rediculas, it just irked me he accepted a offer, and when sending payment info, adds the note for 3%, then kind of gets an attitude with me, maybe if my I don't know what YYD means, that's why this post originated.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

slimgravy said:


> I believe it's against policy of PayPal to charge that 3% to the buyer.
> 
> That 3% is the cost of doing biz and the finance company providing the seller with Some sort of convenience and insurance for that trans action.
> 
> ...


THIS IS 100% TRUE. IT IS A PAYPAL RULE THAT SAYS SELLER IS NOT TO PASS ON THE 3% FEE TO THE BUYER. 
TYD= total sale price (everything included). Sellers always say but if I take his offer I am loosing money on asking price and the fees. Simple answer is don't sell it. Sit on it for five months so it collects dust and depreciates even more. No one is telling you you have to sell. You don't like the offer say no. And befor I get flamed, check my feedback. I have sold over 25 bows and even more accessories. All TYD priority shipping, if I accept an offer it includes everything.


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

My 2 cents...Paypal fees are paid by the seller. That's the way paypal works you sell something it costs you 3% of the selling price.
TYD means cost of the item plus shipping cost (standard shipping)...getting something to your door has nothing to do with paypal fees.

If a seller wants to get reimbursed for the paypal fees then charge 3% more for the item up front.

So if I buy an item for $ 100 "TYD" expect to pay $100 and have it arrive on my doorstep; paypal fees are seller responsibility like every other transaction unless the ad states $100 plus 3% paypal fees.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

thawk said:


> I always laugh when I see people thinking this way, isn't it the same $1.11 that BOTH sides are crying about?
> 
> I agree with Alaska, the seller sent a note to add the fees, just add the $1.11 and not ask for a refund.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY! Well said sir!


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## Blackeagle1 (Aug 19, 2014)

thawk said:


> I always laugh when I see people thinking this way, isn't it the same $1.11 that BOTH sides are crying about?
> 
> I agree with Alaska, the seller sent a note to add the fees, just add the $1.11 and not ask for a refund.
> 
> ...


I think when seller says Tyd, I wouldn't look for a note that says add pp fees. We a agree on one thing for sure. If you use f&f to buy something your stealing from pp.


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## burdog (Aug 3, 2008)

TYD is all inclusive. I also believe it is not only a PayPal rule but it is also an AT rule (I think) that you are not allowed to ask the buyer to pay PP fees. That's why by definition it is called "sellers fee".


tpetrain said:


> THIS IS 100% TRUE. IT IS A PAYPAL RULE THAT SAYS SELLER IS NOT TO PASS ON THE 3% FEE TO THE BUYER.
> TYD= total sale price (everything included). Sellers always say but if I take his offer I am loosing money on asking price and the fees. Simple answer is don't sell it. Sit on it for five months so it collects dust and depreciates even more. No one is telling you you have to sell. You don't like the offer say no. And befor I get flamed, check my feedback. I have sold over 25 bows and even more accessories. All TYD priority shipping, if I accept an offer it includes everything.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

harleyryder said:


> To me TYD means To My Door and the price is the price, if you want me to pay YOUR paypal fees on top of that or family & friends, sorry I walk away


What if it's such a good deal...? Let's say it's a like-new 2017 flagship bow of your choice at $500 TYD (assume MSRP is $1,000) and both of you agreed to that price. Then, at the very end when he gives your his PP, he adds that you will cover the 3% fees because neither of you negotiated who would pay them. Would you walk away on principle or eat it and snag the deal?


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## Dickenscpa (May 2, 2015)

I sold a few items recently and two of the buyers paid with PP gift. I did not ask them to and I guess it was nice that they trusted me - but when someone pays you PP gift it does not put their shipping address in the notes and doesn't allow you to print the shipping label right there and kinda forces you to go to the post office. I'd rather eat the PP fees because whatever that label prints, it gets to the buyer. Whenever I go to the PO it charges more for shipping and it's usually more than the 3% in shipping charges.

I've started putting a note in when I send them my PP info to be sure and NOT pay with gift I WILL eat the fees. Plus I feel this is more in line with the classified rules as well. Worth 3% not to have to get off my lazy tail and drive to the PO and stand in line. LOL!


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## tribend (Feb 24, 2011)

TYD is to your door, no additional costs unless otherwise indicated in the listing. If Paypal fees are not indicated in the listing, then seller would be SOL on recouping the fee. I have had experience with F&F/Gift without asking and it is a nice situation as the 3% fee is a necessary evil which is awful one-sided. That being said, I place a note in my larger priced adds that Paypal is preferred, USPS money order is accepted (we split 3% fee). Paypal is a shared resource for both seller and buyer, so why not just split it? I have not had any problems with this, nor have I received any complaints.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

tribend said:


> TYD is to your door, no additional costs unless otherwise indicated in the listing. If Paypal fees are not indicated in the listing, then seller would be SOL on recouping the fee. I have had experience with F&F/Gift without asking and it is a nice situation as the 3% fee is a necessary evil which is awful one-sided. That being said, I place a note in my larger priced adds that Paypal is preferred, USPS money order is accepted (we split 3% fee). Paypal is a shared resource for both seller and buyer, so why not just split it? I have not had any problems with this, nor have I received any complaints.


That is because you where upfront in your add about the fees. People have a problem with it when a price was agreed upon then get a pm saying here is my PayPal plus add the 3%. Even better is when you send the money and they pm you back saying your $3 short on a $100 dollar purchase. I have personally had it happen to me. Sent payment and get a pm saying I'm short $1.25. I told him to refund my money. No word of fees ever came up through PM's.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

myang1989 said:


> What if it's such a good deal...? Let's say it's a like-new 2017 flagship bow of your choice at $500 TYD (assume MSRP is $1,000) and both of you agreed to that price. Then, at the very end when he gives your his PP, he adds that you will cover the 3% fees because neither of you negotiated who would pay them. Would you walk away on principle or eat it and snag the deal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If he lowered his price that much he should have thought of the fees prior to the price. I would ask for a refund if he asked for the fees after the fact. Doesn't matter what the price is. I as the buyer didn't decide to sell it for that price. I'm buying it for what we agreed upon. Nothing more, nothing less. That's why my feedback is 100% with as much as I have sold. My prices are TYD with no hidden fees. If you make an offer and I accept it is for that price not add 3%. I as the seller have the choice to sell or not for the price offered. If the price is less than what you are asking for with the 3% factored in then sit on it until someone comes along with a better offer. Pretty simple.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

tpetrain said:


> That is because you where upfront in your add about the fees. People have a problem with it when a price was agreed upon then get a pm saying here is my PayPal plus add the 3%. Even better is when you send the money and they pm you back saying your $3 short on a $100 dollar purchase. I have personally had it happen to me. Sent payment and get a pm saying I'm short $1.25. I told him to refund my money. No word of fees ever came up through PM's.


It amazes me that people, who are supposedly responsible adults that signed an agreement with Paypal to utilize their service, can publicly state very clearly they have no intent of following their own agreement with Paypal. A man's word used to mean something, but so many these days obviously have zero respect for themselves or anyone else. Pathetic really.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

This topic hasn't touched upon import duties. IIRC, a previous thread like this stated that any import duty is the responsibility of the buyer, even though the buyer and the seller negotiated a TYD amount that doesn't factor in customs duties.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Blackeagle1 said:


> I think when seller says Tyd, I wouldn't look for a note that says add pp fees. We a agree on one thing for sure. If you use f&f to buy something your stealing from pp.


I would agree but in the original add when he started lowering the price he said "plus 3% for Paypal fees" so personally I wouldn't be surprised the seller would want to add the fees. 
Again, I'm with most on here who feel the fees should be on the seller, but in this case there was kinda a offer and a counter offer although the counter offer should have come when he answered the offer ("sure" just add the PP fees to the $70)


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> I can see both sides. Another way to look at it is this.......did he get $70 from you?
> 
> Kind of funny.......I recently sold a bunch of items to probably 10 different guys. 9 of the 10 sent PP via F&F so no fee, and only 1 out of the 10 sent it normal with fees deducted. I didn't stipulate for either way, but seems like most people these days send it F&F. I don't care one way or the other normally........unless it's a large dollar item. But then it's all negotiated ahead of time before payment is sent.


this post was written reasonably but i think i disagree with every point that was made.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

myang1989 said:


> This topic hasn't touched upon import duties. IIRC, a previous thread like this stated that any import duty is the responsibility of the buyer, even though the *buyer and the seller negotiated a TYD amount* that doesn't factor in customs duties.


TO YOUR DOOR 

how much clearer can it be? If you are selling and give a price, ANY price, and say "TYD", this states the buyer gets the item delivered to his door for that stated price. If seller wants to place restrictions on the price, then do it publicly, and up front. Pretty easy to tell someone from "out of country" that shipping will have to be negotiated, as almost all sales here are "in country". For those outside the country, obviously shipping concerns are a different matter that have to be worked out between buyer and seller. If the country YOU reside in hits you with duties, that is your deal, not the sellers', if the seller is being asked to ship outside his country.

I sold a bow this winter to an Australian. When I realized he was Ausie, I simply told him I'd never shipped there before and had no idea what it would cost. He had me ship to a family member in CA.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Frank-the-5th said:


> Not how I sell things, so it's irrelevant to me. Just saying maybe for the guys who are anal about receiving the 3% fee they should start factoring that into their price


They do........and I explained why it does no good to do that. You still have to negotiate regardless what you factor in. This isn't Amazon, it is a Classifieds garage sale listing.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Bullhound said:


> It amazes me that people, who are supposedly responsible adults that signed an agreement with Paypal to utilize their service, can publicly state very clearly they have no intent of following their own agreement with Paypal. A man's word used to mean something, but so many these days obviously have zero respect for themselves or anyone else. Pathetic really.


Where's the like button


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

To sum this one up: no one likes being slapped with hidden fees at the last minute; increase your selling price to cover your fees and it's all good.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

Bullhound said:


> TO YOUR DOOR
> 
> how much clearer can it be? If you are selling and give a price, ANY price, and say "TYD", this states the buyer gets the item delivered to his door for that stated price. If seller wants to place restrictions on the price, then do it publicly, and up front. Pretty easy to tell someone from "out of country" that shipping will have to be negotiated, as almost all sales here are "in country". For those outside the country, obviously shipping concerns are a different matter that have to be worked out between buyer and seller. If the country YOU reside in hits you with duties, that is your deal, not the sellers', if the seller is being asked to ship outside his country.
> 
> I sold a bow this winter to an Australian. When I realized he was Ausie, I simply told him I'd never shipped there before and had no idea what it would cost. He had me ship to a family member in CA.


I'm pretty sure the other thread supported the seller in not refunding the buyer the import fees that were incurred even though a TYD price was negotiated beforehand. People accused the buyer of trying to take advantage of the seller's inexperience with shipping abroad. That's where I learned that TYD does not mean that the seller will cover import fees, even if it wasn't mentioned beforehand.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> this post was written reasonably but i think i disagree with every point that was made.


You can disagree all you want, but look at it a different way. Say you agree to buy a house for $250k from a seller. Now you use a bank transfer service that takes 1% of the amount transferred to the escrow service so only $247,500 actually comes through. Do you really think you're going to own that house without ponying up the additional $2500 to the seller? Not a chance.

I don't care what people do or don't do in regards to PP or MO's or however they pay. I just argue the logic or lack thereof that comes from these discussions. In the legal contract world, when an amount is agreed upon in that contract, the seller has absolutely no obligation to release said property until the full consideration from the buyer is deposited into the seller's possession. Again.........which is why these things need to be negotiated......BEFORE payment is made.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

myang1989 said:


> I'm pretty sure the other thread supported the seller in not refunding the buyer the import fees that were incurred even though a TYD price was negotiated beforehand. People accused the buyer of trying to take advantage of the seller's inexperience with shipping abroad. That's where I learned that TYD does not mean the seller will cover customs fees, even if it wasn't mentioned beforehand.


And I agree. Almost all sales on this site are in the US. If someone outside this country wants to buy something here, it is only reasonable that person be up front about it, AND accept any fees that are associated with THEM receiving that item into their country.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

5MilesBack said:


> You can disagree all you want, but look at it a different way. Say you agree to buy a house for $250k from a seller. Now you use a bank transfer service that takes 1% of the amount transferred to the escrow service so only $247,500 actually comes through. Do you really think you're going to own that house without ponying up the additional $2500 to the seller? Not a chance.
> 
> I don't care what people do or don't do in regards to PP or MO's or however they pay. I just argue the logic or lack thereof that comes from these discussions. *In the legal contract world,* when an amount is agreed upon in that contract, the seller has absolutely no obligation to release said property until the full consideration from the buyer is deposited into the seller's possession. Again.........which is why these things need to be negotiated......BEFORE payment is made.


In the legal contract world, you are bound to the contract you signed up on, and if you don't abide, you are in breach of that contract. Your legal contract with Paypal tells you the YOU will pay your own fees for the use of their service. Service contracts are pretty easy aren't they.


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## BPT (Sep 23, 2008)

5MilesBack said:


> You can disagree all you want, but look at it a different way. Say you agree to buy a house for $250k from a seller. Now you use a bank transfer service that takes 1% of the amount transferred to the escrow service so only $247,500 actually comes through. Do you really think you're going to own that house without ponying up the additional $2500 to the seller? Not a chance.
> 
> I don't care what people do or don't do in regards to PP or MO's or however they pay. I just argue the logic or lack thereof that comes from these discussions. In the legal contract world, when an amount is agreed upon in that contract, the seller has absolutely no obligation to release said property until the full consideration from the buyer is deposited into the seller's possession. Again.........which is why these things need to be negotiated......BEFORE payment is made.


Every time you use a credit card at a store that store is charged a processing fee which is a percentage of the price. This is not borne by the buyer. PayPal works exactly the same way. I would assume TYD is all in. Granted with me in Canada I know to offer extra money for TYD as the seller would get ripped off on shipping.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

Bullhound said:


> In the legal contract world, you are bound to the contract you signed up on, and if you don't abide, you are in breach of that contract. Your legal contract with Paypal tells you the YOU will pay your own fees for the use of their service. Service contracts are pretty easy aren't they.


You are paying the fees, but you can hide it in a higher selling price, which effectively shifts the fees to the buyer. It's still coming out of the money being sent to you, so you're not in breach of contract then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

5MilesBack said:


> They do........and I explained why it does no good to do that. You still have to negotiate regardless what you factor in. This isn't Amazon, it is a Classifieds garage sale listing.


Your right to a point. The seller has the right to accept or decline the offer. If the offer is within his 3% fee final price then accept the offer, if not then say no or counter with tha 3% fee in mind. It's simple math and I think some can't do that on here. I know if I put a price for $100 TYD I will accept an offer of $75 and that will still cover the fee and what I want to get. There is no reason to say ok to an offer and then at the last minute add 3% when it is the sellers responsibility to pay it. If your not getting enough in the offer to cover the fee then don't sell it. I know if I see an add that says add 3% I skip over it, especially if it's a $30 item. You're talking $.90.


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## ppkaprince98 (Mar 13, 2008)

myang1989 said:


> To sum this one up: no one likes being slapped with hidden fees at the last minute; increase your selling price to cover your fees and it's all good.


I agree. All he had to do was say no to the $70tyd offer and countered with $72.10


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

And no one has pointed out yet that if OP sends the $1.11 the buyer is only going to get $1.08...


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Bullhound said:


> It amazes me that people, who are supposedly responsible adults that signed an agreement with Paypal to utilize their service, can publicly state very clearly they have no intent of following their own agreement with Paypal. A man's word used to mean something, but so many these days obviously have zero respect for themselves or anyone else. Pathetic really.


You use this a lot, but please show me where a payment is made through PP and the fee DOESN'T come out of the seller's account.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

5MilesBack said:


> You can disagree all you want, but look at it a different way. Say you agree to buy a house for $250k from a seller. Now you use a bank transfer service that takes 1% of the amount transferred to the escrow service so only $247,500 actually comes through. Do you really think you're going to own that house without ponying up the additional $2500 to the seller? Not a chance.
> 
> I don't care what people do or don't do in regards to PP or MO's or however they pay. I just argue the logic or lack thereof that comes from these discussions. In the legal contract world, when an amount is agreed upon in that contract, the seller has absolutely no obligation to release said property until the full consideration from the buyer is deposited into the seller's possession. Again.........which is why these things need to be negotiated......BEFORE payment is made.


If you want to talk legal. PayPal says the seller is the one who pays the fee for using the service. So to try and make the buyer pay the fee is illegal in your eyes. Correct?


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Bullhound said:


> In the legal contract world, you are bound to the contract you signed up on, and if you don't abide, you are in breach of that contract. Your legal contract with Paypal tells you the YOU will pay your own fees for the use of their service. Service contracts are pretty easy aren't they.


See my reply above ^^^^^^^. The fees always come out of the recipients account. There is no breach of anything in that regards.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

5MilesBack said:


> See my reply above ^^^^^^^. The fees always come out of the recipients account. There is no breach of anything in that regards.


You are correct, they do come out of sellers account because he is suppose to pay the fee for using the service. I know when I bought my house the selling party paid 6% of there asking price to the realtor and I didn't have to pay it. It came out of the sale price. Same thing applies to PayPal, they get a 3% cut to use there service.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

tpetrain said:


> If you want to talk legal. PayPal says the seller is the one who pays the fee for using the service. *So to try and make the buyer pay the fee is illegal in your eyes.* Correct?


With regards to PP, the buyer NEVER pays their fee. PP always takes it out of the recipient's account.......never the sender's. What happens BEFORE PP gets involved has absolutely nothing to do with PP, or their agreement.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

5MilesBack said:


> With regards to PP, the buyer NEVER pays their fee. PP always takes it out of the recipient's account.......never the sender's. What happens BEFORE PP gets involved has absolutely nothing to do with PP, or their agreement.


Yes I agree. I thought you where saying that it was ok for the seller to ask for the 3% after a price was agreed upon, if that is the case then I don't agree with you.


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## BPT (Sep 23, 2008)

5MilesBack said:


> With regards to PP, the buyer NEVER pays their fee. PP always takes it out of the recipient's account.......never the sender's. What happens BEFORE PP gets involved has absolutely nothing to do with PP, or their agreement.


This is directly from the terms of service from pay pal



> 4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.


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## sunny_d (Feb 18, 2013)

jhinaz said:


> I've always understood TYD to mean total cost to the buyer, which includes the item, S&H, and paypal fee, *but not* expedited delivery, insurance or signature receipt. - John


This is EXACTLY how I look at it. With little things usually just as cheap to mail priority and give the buyer piece of mind, but if they want overnight or something special that'll be extra!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

BPT said:


> This is directly from the terms of service from pay pal


A seller can get around this by not structuring it as a surcharge. They just have to include it in the selling price during negotiation...


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

myang1989 said:


> *You are paying the fees, but you can hide it in a higher selling price*, which effectively shifts the fees to the buyer. It's still coming out of the money being sent to you, so you're not in breach of contract then.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


this is within your contractual rights. "effectively shifting" doesn't enter into it actually. :beer:


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

5MilesBack said:


> See my reply above ^^^^^^^. The fees always come out of the recipients account. There is no breach of anything in that regards.


yeah, we've discussed before. you are not allowed to charge your fees, in any way, to the buyer, when using YOUR paypal account. To do so, clearly puts you in breach.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

tpetrain said:


> Yes I agree. I thought you where saying that it was ok for the seller to ask for the 3% after a price was agreed upon, if that is the case then I don't agree with you.


The seller can ask for whatever he wants to ask in the negotiation process.........PP doesn't get involved until money actually passes through them. People seem to think that just because they have an agreement with PP, that PP dictates all negotiations in all transactions. PP ISN'T EVEN PART OF THE DEAL UNTIL THE PAYMENT GOES THROUGH THEIR SERVICE. And at that time.........yes, the fee comes out of the seller's account.


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## 45er (Jan 18, 2009)

If I sell something and put "TYD" on it, to me that means "tax-title-driveout". You pay me that and I will get the item to you with no further charges.


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## MN Doe Hunter (Dec 22, 2003)

If I see an ad in the classifieds that says "Plus paypal fees" I just move on. TYD means just that. It means you pay $70 and expect to get the item. It doesn't mean you pay $72.10.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Bullhound said:


> yeah, we've discussed before. you are not allowed to charge your fees, in any way, to the buyer, when using YOUR paypal account. To do so, clearly puts you in breach.


That's the point........you're in negotiations with the buyer, and the PP company isn't even in the equation. THEN, once all terms are agreed to THEN you can get PP involved by paying or accepting payment through PP. OR........get ready for this one, maybe during the negotiation process.......the buyer and seller agree to pay with and accept a MO instead. Holy crap.........now what do we do? Call PP to see if that's allowed in their agreement? LOL. See the lunacy of your argument.


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## BPT (Sep 23, 2008)

5MilesBack said:


> The seller can ask for whatever he wants to ask in the negotiation process.........PP doesn't get involved until money actually passes through them. People seem to think that just because they have an agreement with PP, that PP dictates all negotiations in all transactions. PP ISN'T EVEN PART OF THE DEAL UNTIL THE PAYMENT GOES THROUGH THEIR SERVICE. And at that time.........yes, the fee comes out of the seller's account.


If you do not wish to abide by PP rules for that deal you just have to not use PP for that deal. If you are allowing the use of PP then their rules do in fact come into play in the negotiations. Now if you as a seller do not go below a certain price because you know you are going to be eating pay pal fees that is your right. But PP has always been buyer friendly not seller friendly and their rules to offer themselves as a means of payment require that you follow their rules from the start. Otherwise their rule is essentially worthless.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

5MilesBack said:


> That's the point........you're in negotiations with the buyer, and the PP company isn't even in the equation. THEN, once all terms are agreed to THEN you can get PP involved by paying or accepting payment through PP. OR........get ready for this one, maybe during the negotiation process.......the seller and buyer agree to pay with and accept a MO instead. Holy crap.........now what do we do? Call PP to see if that's allowed in their agreement. LOL. See the lunacy of your argument.


keep up the good work. you are simply the master of the "art of negotiation" :thumbs_up


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

BPT said:


> If you do not wish to abide by PP rules for that deal you just have to not use PP for that deal.


That's my point........I'm not abiding by PP rules for any deal because *PP isn't involved*. They aren't even on the radar..........UNTIL AFTER all the terms have been agreed to. THEN you can bring them into the equation. But at that point, it's a done deal.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Bullhound said:


> keep up the good work. you are simply the master of the "art of negotiation" :thumbs_up


Or just a normal guy with simple powers of common sense and logic. LOL.


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## jasoncw (Feb 17, 2015)

To go off track one step further, does anyone know if the major CC companies (Visa/MC) have the same type of term? If so, how do gas stations get off with charging higher prices using credit vs. cash?


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## bowcrete (Dec 29, 2008)

Tyd,TWO YOUR DOOR,done DEAL


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

jasoncw said:


> To go off track one step further, does anyone know if the major CC companies (Visa/MC) have the same type of term? If so, how do gas stations get off with charging higher prices using credit vs. cash?


You have to remember the history of where PP came from. Most on here probably weren't even born when they started. LOL. PP came from Ebay, so Ebay dictated all the terms, including HAVING to use PP to use Ebay's services. THAT's where that clause with PP came from. Sellers were trying to recoup PP fees after an auction ended, so they'd add them to shipping for a total price. The CC companies don't have to worry about that as they're dealing with businesses in most cases, not garage sale transactions......or being tied to Ebay.


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## jasoncw (Feb 17, 2015)

Yes, I was alive and using eBay back then. lol I didn't realize that's from where the term stemmed.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

tpetrain said:


> Your right to a point. The seller has the right to accept or decline the offer. If the offer is within his 3% fee final price then accept the offer, if not then say no or counter with tha 3% fee in mind. It's simple math and I think some can't do that on here. I know if I put a price for $100 TYD I will accept an offer of $75 and that will still cover the fee and what I want to get. There is no reason to say ok to an offer and then at the last minute add 3% when it is the sellers responsibility to pay it. If your not getting enough in the offer to cover the fee then don't sell it. I know if I see an add that says add 3% I skip over it, especially if it's a $30 item. You're talking $.90.


This is a double edge sword, people get sick of low ball offers but sellers ask a price higher then what they will take. It's everywhere in the world, when we buy a car we feel its time to negotiate a price, but when we go to the grocery store we don't negotiate the price.

I just sold some limbs, the buyer misread my add and thought my asking price was $100 and sent a pm saying he would take them and asked for my paypal I sent it to him and explained the price was $50 not $100 and I was covering fees and shipping.
It's just my way but I would rather list my bottom dollar and sell it quick then wait around for an extra couple bucks when I'm already loosing 50% from what it cost new. Feel free to do things your way, but you should never complain about low ball offers.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Question about Paypal
Is it against the rules to list a money order or cash price and a Paypal price?


I am totally surprised me to see how many people say they just move on when they see "plus PP fees" in a for sale add.
Is because you can't do the math to figure out if it's a good price? I don't get it, if I'm looking at an item that sells new for $225 and the add reads great condition $125 plus fees TYD it wouldn't matter to me, if I thought it was worth 128.75 I would buy it, but it sounds like some on here will pass it by, but would have bought it if the add read $128.75 TYD.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

5MilesBack said:


> With regards to PP, the buyer NEVER pays their fee. PP always takes it out of the recipient's account.......never the sender's. What happens BEFORE PP gets involved has absolutely nothing to do with PP, or their agreement.




Except when the seller lists one price for money orders and a 3% higher price for PP transactions, which happens often in these classifieds.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

I had a douche nozzle (57Tacoma) go completely sideways on a deal over 30¢. Asked for payment plus fees. I sent him payment plus 3%. This was 30¢ less than the PP fees. So instead of asking for his 30¢ this member chose to refund payment and send insults via PM.
There's just no accounting for some people.


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## BPT (Sep 23, 2008)

thawk said:


> Question about Paypal
> Is it against the rules to list a money order or cash price and a Paypal price?


Yes, they require if you use their service to charge no more than any other method. They likely wouldnt have an issue if you charged more for the money order than PP but not the other way around.


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## poetic (Jul 30, 2013)

harleyryder said:


> To me TYD means To My Door and the price is the price, if you want me to pay YOUR paypal fees on top of that or family & friends, sorry I walk away


Exactly ^^^^^

Step it up people. If you sell something, expect 3% taken out. Go to flebay and get rekt'd for 13%. 

I've never asked for 3%. I expect to pay that out of my selling price. 

TYD, TMD... straight up. To your door, to my door. Nothing more nothing less...










Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

BPT said:


> Yes, they require if you use their service to charge no more than any other method. They likely wouldnt have an issue if you charged more for the money order than PP but not the other way around.


PayPal rules shouldn't be considered until the act of paying, assuming you're using their service in the first place. Any negotiating of price before then is not PP's business. They don't know that you're charging $10 via MO or $200 via PP for the same item. They don't have any right to set your prices.

It's a free market. The buyer can choose not to buy and move on if a seller lists something for too much. However, it is frowned upon for a seller to tack on PP fees after a TYD price has been agreed upon. A seller can still do it though; you, as the buyer, can in turn reject the deal if you think the extra 3% makes the item too expensive (or you can miss out on a good deal because you disagree with the seller's actions). The buyer has all the power since he has the money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BPT (Sep 23, 2008)

myang1989 said:


> PayPal rules shouldn't be considered until the act of paying, assuming you're using their service in the first place. Any negotiating of price before then is not PP's business. They don't know that you're charging $10 via MO or $200 via PP for the same item. They don't have any right to set your prices.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps if I state it another way. To use their service you can't have charged more than you would have charged someone else. The moment you charge more you can't use their service. They can't dictate your prices but they can dictate who can use their service, and they choose not to allow someone who charges more to use PP to use their service. You can set prices how ever you want and negotiate however you want. But to use their service you have to meet certain conditions.

On a low priced item would I quibble over a couple bucks? personally no. I hate negotiating, both buying and selling, it is a game I don't like to play.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

BPT said:


> Perhaps if I state it another way. To use their service you can't have charged more than you would have charged someone else. The moment you charge more you can't use their service. They can't dictate your prices but they can dictate who can use their service, and they choose not to allow someone who charges more to use PP to use their service. You can set prices how ever you want and negotiate however you want. But to use their service you have to meet certain conditions.
> 
> On a low priced item would I quibble over a couple bucks? personally no. I hate negotiating, both buying and selling, it is a game I don't like to play.


I'm pretty sure they won't bar you from using their service if you did that. In fact, they would probably prefer that since they make more in fees...

Also, how would they even know what your other prices are? Would you go and complain to them that you agreed to the higher price and try to null the transaction? If you do that, you don't end up getting the item you agreed to pay for in the first place, so what good does that do for you? Hell, the seller could give you negative feedback for that alone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BPT (Sep 23, 2008)

myang1989 said:


> I'm pretty sure they won't bar you from using their service if you did that. In fact, they would probably prefer that since they make more in fees...
> 
> Also, how would they even know what your other prices are? Would you go and complain to them that you agreed to the higher price and try to null the transaction? If you do that, you don't end up getting the item you agreed to pay for in the first place, so what good does that do for you? Hell, the seller could give you negative feedback for that alone.
> 
> ...


lol yeah they probably don't search for people doing this, and wouldn't pick up most people doing it. I bet they would if someone complained though, if they don't enforce their terms of service someone can argue it is invalid. I of course am not a lawyer, nor have I recently stayed at a holiday in.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

thawk said:


> This is a double edge sword, people get sick of low ball offers but sellers ask a price higher then what they will take. It's everywhere in the world, when we buy a car we feel its time to negotiate a price, but when we go to the grocery store we don't negotiate the price.
> 
> I just sold some limbs, the buyer misread my add and thought my asking price was $100 and sent a pm saying he would take them and asked for my paypal I sent it to him and explained the price was $50 not $100 and I was covering fees and shipping.
> It's just my way but I would rather list my bottom dollar and sell it quick then wait around for an extra couple bucks when I'm already loosing 50% from what it cost new. Feel free to do things your way, but you should never complain about low ball offers.


I'm not sure what you mean by me complaining of low ball offers. I have never complained. All I said was I have a set price as to what I will let the item go for with the fee accounted for. If someone wants to offer me below that, fine. I just say no thank you and wait for the next offer. I think you misread what I wrote. Everything I have ever sold have been TYD with Priority Shipping. People have got some pretty good deals from me. LOL


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## RossRagan (Jan 6, 2015)

myang1989 said:


> PayPal rules shouldn't be considered until the act of paying, assuming you're using their service in the first place. Any negotiating of price before then is not PP's business. They don't know that you're charging $10 via MO or $200 via PP for the same item. They don't have any right to set your prices.
> 
> It's a free market. The buyer can choose not to buy and move on if a seller lists something for too much. However, it is frowned upon for a seller to tack on PP fees after a TYD price has been agreed upon. A seller can still do it though; you, as the buyer, can in turn reject the deal if you think the extra 3% makes the item too expensive (or you can miss out on a good deal because you disagree with the seller's actions). The buyer has all the power since he has the money.
> 
> ...


Another answer is really easy, too; you don't like PayPal's rules, don't use PayPal's service. The 3% protects the buyer and the seller and covers PayPal's costs when a dirt bag attempts to shaft a buyer and PP has to refund the buyer's payment. Pretty cheap insurance in my opinion.

That being said, I have purchased items from individuals online where, after I noticed that a particular had been listed for quite a while but no sale, I made a lower round number offer like $300, requesting that I be able to pay using PayPal saying that if they can accept PayPal I will pay shipping and insurance and a little extra to cover any other expenses. But that was my offer, not the seller requesting that I pay their fee.


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

When I sell I never ask for PayPal fees to be covered. Just something you cover when your the seller to give buyers the protection of PayPal. I've had some very gracious buyers on here that have sent an extra 3% but I've never asked. Furthermore it's only 3 frickin %.... Who cares? Haha
Sell something on eBay and let them crack ya 10%ish and have PayPal take another 3% if ya don't like selling on here.


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## bms (Apr 28, 2015)

jasoncw said:


> To go off track one step further, does anyone know if the major CC companies (Visa/MC) have the same type of term? If so, how do gas stations get off with charging higher prices using credit vs. cash?


Yes the CC companies do have the same clause, "you cannot charge more for credit card purchase", so the gas stations didn't charge more, they charged the same price, but you get a "discount" for cash. In the end it's the same thing just a play on words. But at the time the CC companies were getting pinched by the oil companies, that's why they got away with the wording. Go ahead ask me how I know this.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

bms said:


> Yes the CC companies do have the same clause, "you cannot charge more for credit card purchase", so the gas stations didn't charge more, they charged the same price, but you get a "discount" for cash. In the end it's the same thing just a play on words. But at the time the CC companies were getting pinched by the oil companies, that's why they got away with the wording. Go ahead ask me how I know this.


Ok...I'll bite. How do you know this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bms (Apr 28, 2015)

myang1989 said:


> Ok...I'll bite. How do you know this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was lucky enough to hang out with some top executives from both the oil and credit card companies years ago, in some non business settings, pretty fun times.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

tpetrain said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by me complaining of low ball offers. I have never complained. All I said was I have a set price as to what I will let the item go for with the fee accounted for. If someone wants to offer me below that, fine. I just say no thank you and wait for the next offer. I think you misread what I wrote. Everything I have ever sold have been TYD with Priority Shipping. People have got some pretty good deals from me. LOL


I'm sorry I worded it wrong, I didn't mean "you" specifically I was talking about people that ask one price knowing they will come down and let it go for less, this action on the sellers part is why most people offer less then the asking price. 
Then you see all the time people complaining about low ball offers. 
I didn't mean to imply that you have or will complain about low offers, but rather people do complain and part of the reason we all get low offers to start with is people start with a high asking price hoping to get lucky


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## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

myang1989 said:


> Ok...I'll bite. How do you know this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Google it

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## rocks66ss (Jul 29, 2014)

I see some folks have an interesting idea of what TYD means! It surprised me that such a simple thing can be interrupted so differently. 

When an ad reads $700.00 TYD thats exactly what it means Seven hundred dollars, "To Your Door" No hidden cost, no hidden fees, no taxes, no anything except Seven hundred dollars, "To Your Door" period.


Rocky


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

thawk said:


> I'm sorry I worded it wrong, I didn't mean "you" specifically I was talking about people that ask one price knowing they will come down and let it go for less, this action on the sellers part is why most people offer less then the asking price.
> Then you see all the time people complaining about low ball offers.
> I didn't mean to imply that you have or will complain about low offers, but rather people do complain and part of the reason we all get low offers to start with is people start with a high asking price hoping to get lucky


Gotcha. I agree with you. I always price my stuff to sell. I look at what people are asking for the same thing and price mine lower to move it. I normally get asking price or $5-$10 less than what I put for price on accessories. Bows are different, people won't touch a bow unless it is a really great deal or hard to get. I buy my bows off of here. That way when I sell them the hit isn't bad compared to buying a new one and dumping it. That's why Archery Talk is so great. You can pick up a new/used bow for $600 and shoot for awhile then trade or sell for $500 and try something new and you only spent $100. It only cost $100 bucks to try the bow rather than $400 ($1000 paid - $600 sell= $400). You could do this five or six times and still only have spent $600 total on six different bows. That's if you like to try different bows out. If not then you still save a ton by getting a bow for 40% of new.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

RossRagan said:


> Another answer is really easy, too; you don't like PayPal's rules, don't use PayPal's service. The 3% protects the buyer and the seller and covers PayPal's costs when a dirt bag attempts to shaft a buyer and PP has to refund the buyer's payment. Pretty cheap insurance in my opinion.
> 
> That being said, I have purchased items from individuals online where, after I noticed that a particular had been listed for quite a while but no sale, I made a lower round number offer like $300, requesting that I be able to pay using PayPal saying that if they can accept PayPal I will pay shipping and insurance and a little extra to cover any other expenses. But that was my offer, not the seller requesting that I pay their fee.


Ok, what if I did these 2 hypothetical sales:

1) For sale is a Like New Stan SX3 3L Heavy Metal with trainer lock for $154.64 TYD. It has only been used 10 times since bought new. It will have original packaging and documentation.

2) For sale is a Like New Stan SX3 3L Heavy Metal with trainer lock for $150 TYD. Buyer pays PP Fees. It has only been used 10 times since bought new. It will have original packaging and documentation.

You would probably immediately agree to transaction 1 and reject transaction 2 because of the phrasing. However, in terms of dollars the buyer pays the seller, the amounts will be the same because $150/0.97=$154.64. In both transactions, the seller gets $150 in hand before shipping because the buyer is covering the cost of the PP fees that the seller is being charged by PP by sending more cash through the service in the first place. Both transactions would be fantastic deals for the buyer though since a brand new release like that goes for around $200-$250.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

rocks66ss said:


> When an ad reads $700.00 TYD thats exactly what it means Seven hundred dollars, "To Your Door" No hidden cost, no hidden fees, no taxes, no anything except Seven hundred dollars, "To Your Door" period.


Ok, now the buyer agrees to the $700 but requests it ship via 2nd day air to get it to his "door". As the seller, are you still sending it 2nd day air for the $700? Using your own logic.......yes, you are.


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## RossRagan (Jan 6, 2015)

5MilesBack said:


> Ok, now the buyer agrees to the $700 but requests it ship via 2nd day air to get it to his "door". As the seller, are you still sending it 2nd day air for the $700? Using your own logic.......yes, you are.


In this case I would interpret the special request as a change in contract by the buyer. In the original offer, since the seller was paying everything, he/she is free to select the shipping method.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

myang1989 said:


> Ok, what if I did these 2 hypothetical sales:
> 
> 1) For sale is a Like New Stan SX3 3L Heavy Metal with trainer lock for $154.64 TYD. It has only been used 10 times since bought new. It will have original packaging and documentation.
> 
> ...


I'll add a third sale scenario:
3) For sale is a Like New Stan SX3 3L Heavy Metal with trainer lock for $150 TYD. It has only been used 10 times since bought new. It will have original packaging and documentation.

After this is agreed upon, seller sends you a PM with his PP info and adds "Buyer pays paypal fees".

This doesn't feel good because you're being slapped with hidden fees, but it's still a great deal for you. Would you let it fall through for the additional $4.64?

If you send $154.64, that's the implicit agreement to his counteroffer. If you only send $150 before PP fees at this point (seller only gets $145.5 after PP fees are deducted), should the seller be able to demand the additional $4.64 before PP fees sent over ($4.50 after PP fees are deducted) to allow him to get the full $150 in hand before he ships because he did ask for it before you sent the money? This seems to be the gray area that people are arguing over.

The fourth situation is if he says $150 TYD and then asks for PP Fees to be reimbursed after you have already sent $150 before PP fees (he received $145.5 after PP fees were deducted). This is the resounding "NO" to which the PP rules are most likely referring and about which people are in agreement.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> Ok, now the buyer agrees to the $700 but requests it ship via 2nd day air to get it to his "door". As the seller, are you still sending it 2nd day air for the $700? Using your own logic.......yes, you are.


thats a bad assumption, and i cant believe how many people try and spin this idea. TYD, im paying shipping and fees. end of story. A rationale person understands that normal expectations is not over night for a product. same as shipping to Canada. If that person was being super difficult i would just cancel the transaction and leave them negative feedback for being deceptive and difficult.

i've bought and sold alot and when i see an add that says "buyer pays" fees, shipping, etc i just skip over it unless its close to what im willing to spend then i send a PM with a TMD price, inevitably they come back with a higher price or some kind of negotiation ensues. The trick is to just never back off your price. usually everyone leaves happy.

THe reality is, if your listing your used switchback XT in "mint condition" for $700 then your probably gonna have a bad experience.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

friedm1 said:


> thats a bad assumption, and i cant believe how many people try and spin this idea. TYD, im paying shipping and fees. end of story. A rationale person understands that normal expectations is not over night for a product. same as shipping to Canada. If that person was being super difficult i would just cancel the transaction and leave them negative feedback for being deceptive and difficult.
> 
> i've bought and sold alot and when i see an add that says "buyer pays" fees, shipping, etc i just skip over it unless its close to what im willing to spend then i send a PM with a TMD price, inevitably they come back with a higher price or some kind of negotiation ensues. The trick is to just never back off your price. usually everyone leaves happy.
> 
> THe reality is, if your listing your used switchback XT in "mint condition" for $700 then your probably gonna have a bad experience.


All true, but these observations of yours are obvious to 99.9% of reasonable people, who also have the mental capacity to at least outwit a small soap dish....................


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> thats a bad assumption, and i cant believe how many people try and spin this idea. TYD, im paying shipping and fees. end of story. A rationale person understands that normal expectations is not over night for a product. same as shipping to Canada.


There are no "normal expectations" in buying/selling/negotiating. If it was easy and straight forward, there would be no reason for contracts. And you see that just in this thread alone.......everyone has a different perception on things. That's why people need to know the terms before agreeing to purchase an item, and also for selling an item.....FIRST, before payment is ever made. *I find it funny when someone low balls on an offer (which is a perfectly legitimate means of negotiation), but then runs off fuming or gets offended when the seller asks for a higher price (also a perfectly legitimate means of negotiation) depending on the buyers also attempted negotiated payment terms. This reminds me of the liberals in the world.......it's OK for them to negotiate terms, but they get offended when someone else tries to negotiate with them. SMH.*

There is no one stop pricing and expectations outside of a retail establishment. But even with retail shops.......you can still always negotiate sale terms. Cash is king, and can usually get you a better deal than using a CC or other payment terms.

Bottom line.......don't assume anything.


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## harleyryder (May 2, 2005)

myang1989 said:


> What if it's such a good deal...? Let's say it's a like-new 2017 flagship bow of your choice at $500 TYD (assume MSRP is $1,000) and both of you agreed to that price. Then, at the very end when he gives your his PP, he adds that you will cover the 3% fees because neither of you negotiated who would pay them. Would you walk away on principle or eat it and snag the deal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would walk away cause we agreed on a price and then he wants to start adding on his fees, wouldn't you ?


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

harleyryder said:


> I would walk away cause we agreed on a price and then he wants to start adding on his fees, wouldn't you ?


Actually, for that good of a deal, I would eat the fees and pay *because we never explicitly negotiated who would be covering the fees and because the total cost is way below my set threshold going into such a purchase*. I would consider his "you pay PP fees" as a counteroffer that, in this case, I would gladly accept. Let me know if you run into such a deal and balk at the very end because of the fees.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> There are no "normal expectations" in buying/selling/negotiating. If it was easy and straight forward, there would be no reason for contracts. And you see that just in this thread alone.......everyone has a different perception on things. That's why people need to know the terms before agreeing to purchase an item, and also for selling an item.....FIRST, before payment is ever made. *I find it funny when someone low balls on an offer (which is a perfectly legitimate means of negotiation), but then runs off fuming or gets offended when the seller asks for a higher price (also a perfectly legitimate means of negotiation) depending on the buyers also attempted negotiated payment terms. This reminds me of the liberals in the world.......it's OK for them to negotiate terms, but they get offended when someone else tries to negotiate with them. SMH.*
> 
> There is no one stop pricing and expectations outside of a retail establishment. But even with retail shops.......you can still always negotiate sale terms. Cash is king, and can usually get you a better deal than using a CC or other payment terms.
> 
> Bottom line.......don't assume anything.


life is basically the opposite, as people we establish social contracts on the way we expect to interact and be treated. If i go through the McDonalds drive through i expect to buy a cheeseburger. If i pull through and they offer me a hot dog and a bible then i would consider that not a normal societal expectation based on the shared experiences of people.

which i why i say a dozen arrows is $100 TYD. Not maybe $1000 if you live in Antarctica.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

And this whole time I thought TYD stood for "to your door", which means the cost of shipping was on me(the seller)! Amazing how people can read so much more into 3 letters. I guess I'll stop adding that to my sale posts!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> life is basically the opposite, as people we establish social contracts on the way we expect to interact and be treated. If i go through the McDonalds drive through i expect to buy a cheeseburger. I have no idea what you "expect to buy", I'd rather order a Big Mac. But anymore these days if I were to order a Big Mac through the drive through, I'd expect to find something else in the bag when I get home because that's what these places have been doing. They've conditioned us now to expect something other than what was ordered. They almost never get the orders right.......you have to VERIFY what terms they've thrown back at you. Always check your order before you leave. If anything, your example just proves my points. Just yesterday.......ordered some Popeyes mild chicken in the drive through. She even repeated that back 3 different times during the process. When I opened it up, I immediately recognized it as their nasty tasting spicy. But I'm used to these places screwing it up, so checked it before leaving.
> 
> which i why i say a dozen arrows is $100 TYD.


That's fine.......as long as someone comes along and has the exact same expectations of what that means......as I do the same.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> That's fine.......as long as someone comes along and has the exact same expectations of what that means......as I do the same.


i accept your apology for changing my words to fit your narrative, have a marginal day, or maybe a great one depending on your handicap.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> i accept your apology for changing my words to fit your narrative, have a marginal day, or maybe a great one depending on your handicap.


I didn't change your words.......I just responded to what you wrote. If you're referring to leaving the hot dog and Bible out of your post.....that was non-consequential. Whether they put chicken nuggets, a hot dog, or a Bible in your bag........you're still not getting what you ordered and expected to receive. That doesn't change the point of the narrative.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> I didn't change your words.......I just responded to what you wrote. If you're referring to leaving the hot dog and Bible out of your post.....that was non-consequential. Whether they put chicken nuggets, a hot dog, or a Bible in your bag........you're still not getting what you ordered and expected to receive. That doesn't change the point of the narrative.


again, i appreciate your apology, and i've already accepted your first one. no need to keep apologizing. sometimes its just not your day. both Archerytalk and myself commend you for being brave enough to just keep typing. You'll get through this.

now, if i could just find a 2017 Harvest Brown Defiant.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

friedm1 said:


> again, i appreciate your apology, and i've already accepted your first one. no need to keep apologizing. sometimes its just not your day. both Archerytalk and myself commend you for being brave enough to just keep typing. You'll get through this.
> 
> now, if i could just find a 2017 Harvest Brown Defiant.


priceless! LMAO!


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

friedm1 said:


> again, i appreciate your apology, and i've already accepted your first one. no need to keep apologizing. sometimes its just not your day. both Archerytalk and myself commend you for being brave enough to just keep typing. You'll get through this.
> 
> now, if i could just find a 2017 Harvest Brown Defiant.


He loves to argue with everybody, that's his nature. Don't let him get to you. He has 26,000 plus posts, he doesn't have much else going on, so this is what he does.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

Everyone loves to argue, the trick is to not get caught.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

This is kind of off topic from the OP. However, it's pretty clear to me that the PayPal fees are charged to the seller of goods. Therefore they are said sellers responsibility. If the seller doesn't want to eat those fees they should simply add the prospective fee into their asking or selling price. 

Personally I believe all ads that contain "paypal ad 3%" or a variation of that should be deleted, the member warned and if they continue the practice they are banned. Your selling price is your selling price. Period. 

This would solve the OP's original problem and it should never come up again.


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## Larry brown (Aug 17, 2013)

friedm1 said:


> again, i appreciate your apology, and i've already accepted your first one. no need to keep apologizing. sometimes its just not your day. both Archerytalk and myself commend you for being brave enough to just keep typing. You'll get through this.
> 
> now, if i could just find a 2017 Harvest Brown Defiant.


Me too, it's that mythical Hoyt. Rare like the unicorn! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Larry brown (Aug 17, 2013)

friedm1 said:


> Everyone loves to argue, the trick is to not get caught.


I disagree! 
It's not to be WRONG! Ha! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

Lazarus said:


> This is kind of off topic from the OP. However, it's pretty clear to me that the PayPal fees are charged to the seller of goods. Therefore they are said sellers responsibility. If the seller doesn't want to eat those fees they should simply add the prospective fee into their asking or selling price.
> 
> Personally I believe all ads that contain "paypal ad 3%" or a variation of that should be deleted, the member warned and if they continue the practice they are banned. Your selling price is your selling price. Period.
> 
> This would solve the OP's original problem and it should never come up again.


Or you as a buyer could calculate what that 3% is, add it to the seller's stated selling price to arrive at the true selling price, and then decide whether you're willing to buy the item for that much. The seller is trying to give you payment options while still getting his stated amount of cash, net of fees. You could pay with MO for the lesser price, but you'll have to pay 1.2% fee to the PO and lose the protection paypal offers for that privilege.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

5MilesBack said:


> That's my point........I'm not abiding by PP rules for any deal because *PP isn't involved*. They aren't even on the radar..........UNTIL AFTER all the terms have been agreed to. THEN you can bring them into the equation. But at that point, it's a done deal.




But if you offer the item at a different price for PP and non PP payments at that point you've included them to the party as their service is part of your negotiations, and PP rules specifically address this situation... You can't add a surcharge for teh service or require a different handling charge based on the use of their service. The breech is when you negotiate a price higher than for someone paying by another method and then use PP for the funds transfer.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

ShootingBlind said:


> But if you offer the item at a different price for PP and non PP payments at that point you've included them to the party as their service is part of your negotiations, and PP rules specifically address this situation... You can't add a surcharge for teh service or require a different handling charge based on the use of their service. The breech is when you negotiate a price higher than for someone paying by another method and then use PP for the funds transfer.


Let's say this was actually enforceable...All sellers would just list for the higher price and not give you a lower price option. With the seller saying add 3% for paypal, it actually benefits buyers because they can choose to pay less with another option (USPS MO or cash on local pickup) and not use the paypal service entirely.

Also, in my book, a surcharge is a charge applied after a negotiated price has been decided and finalized. If the seller is saying to "add 3% for paypal" before even agreeing on the price, it's not a breach of the terms because it's still part of the negotiation stage. If you say "add the 3% for paypal" after a price has been agreed to but before the buyer sends you the money, you have just reopened negotiations, so that doesn't breach the terms either (that doesn't mean that it doesn't leave a sour taste in the buyer's mouth). What would count as a breach would be if you already received payment, then go back to the buyer and demand an additional 3% before you ship the item out. _That _would be a surcharge in my book.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

As a seller you don't want to use PayPal and abide by their rules?

You could always accept only beads and furs in compensation for your product.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

myang1989 said:


> I'll add a third sale scenario:
> 3) For sale is a Like New Stan SX3 3L Heavy Metal with trainer lock for $150 TYD. It has only been used 10 times since bought new. It will have original packaging and documentation.
> 
> After this is agreed upon, seller sends you a PM with his PP info and adds "Buyer pays paypal fees".
> ...




The difference to me personally is if the item is offered at a lower price when not using PP; and yes regardless of the deal I might be getting I would move on if the "add 3%" is part of the advertising, to me it's more than the deal it's an issue of character and following the rules of the service I'm using to insure the transaction.


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## Mongostatus (Apr 17, 2017)

bms said:


> So here is the deal, I bought something on the classifieds, in his thread he put item X up for $100, few days late he goes down to $95, then $90, and you pay PayPal fees, a few days later he goes to $80. Now I just started looking through the classifieds, I come across his item, I PM him and say " How about $70 tyd" he replies "sure". So I tell him send his PayPal, he does with a note "please add 3% to cover PayPal fees. Honestly I didn't read his note at first I just got his email and sent payment, for $70. I get a PM back, "I asked you to pay 3%, I only got $68.89. I replied " it was $70 tyd, if you don't want it just refund me." From the time he replied "sure" to the point that I told him take it or refund it is less than 15 minutes. So after my reply I get a PM " still waiting on your address, TYD means shipping and item it does not have anything to do with PayPal fees, I'll eat the fees anyway", so I sent my address and said
> "Not to nit pick, but every deal I've done tyd= done, payment in full"
> So I'm sure he will ship the item, I've got no issue with that, and if there is a problem, that's why I pay with PayPal,
> This is the way I've always done it, tyd means, done, total payment. Beside the fact that he asked for the 3% only when he sent his PayPal info. I know it's only a couple bucks, and I didn't really pay attention to his note when I got his PayPal info, but it kind of irritated me.
> Am I correct in my thinking tyd means done, total, obviously if you write something in the add with it that's different, I just don't want to be doing things outside the norm. I don't buy and sell much, just wanted to be sure my thinking is correct.


To me, the named TYD price is what I would pay in grand total to get the item in question to my door. That includes all shipping and fees, with the assumption that the seller will use whatever materials are necessary to pack the item safely, use the cheapest traceable shipping method, and include Signature Confirmation if required (in PayPal's case, item value over $750). It also assumes we're in the same country, and if we're not, the buyer would be responsible for any customs, duty or brokerage fees. This is how I've always approached selling on eBay (since 1998). When I started buying and selling privately on forums such as this, I was initially mystified by the 3% thing. As a seller, why not just build that into your price, if nothing else to avoid the turn-off of even the appearance of nickel-and-diming your buyers?

As a seller, I always use TYD to mean that's the total the buyer would pay to get the item to their door, regardless of what the final into-my-pocket amount is. No more and no less. As a buyer, I am far less likely to deal with sellers who state a price and then add shipping and PP fees as extra. In my experience, sellers who do this tend (though not all) to be the ones who don't describe their items honestly and are far more difficult to deal with should issues come up during or after the transaction.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

myang1989 said:


> Let's say this was actually enforceable...All sellers would just list for the higher price and not give you a lower price option. With the seller saying add 3% for paypal, it actually benefits buyers because they can choose to pay less with another option (USPS MO or cash on local pickup) and not use the paypal service entirely.
> 
> Also, in my book, a surcharge is a charge applied after a negotiated price has been decided and finalized. If the seller is saying to "add 3% for paypal" before even agreeing on the price, it's not a breach of the terms because it's still part of the negotiation stage. If you say "add the 3% for paypal" after a price has been agreed to but before the buyer sends you the money, you have just reopened negotiations, so that doesn't breach the terms either (that doesn't mean that it doesn't leave a sour taste in the buyer's mouth). What would count as a breach would be if you already received payment, then go back to the buyer and demand an additional 3% before you ship the item out. _That _would be a surcharge in my book.


What you are failing to see is it is against PayPal policy to pass the fee to the buyer. So by saying add 3% for paypal you are going against PayPal policy. It's quite simple, ask a price you want to sell for and keep it. When your item doesn't sell for three weeks or 100 bumps then drop your price so you are still comfortable with what you will make.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

ShootingBlind said:


> The difference to me personally is if the item is offered at a lower price when not using PP; and yes regardless of the deal I might be getting I would move on if the "add 3%" is part of the advertising, to me it's more than the deal it's an issue of character and following the rules of the service I'm using to insure the transaction.


I believe PP is there to protect buyers as they usually pay first before receiving the item. A seller could easily choose another form of payment to accept because he can count the cash before shipping out the item. The seller is willing to use PP, but they want the buyer to foot the fees by agreeing to a higher sale price for that insurance. You might not like the idea, but it makes perfect sense to me: why would a seller want to pay insurance for the buyer out of his own pocket?


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

tpetrain said:


> What you are failing to see is it is against PayPal policy to pass the fee to the buyer. So by saying add 3% for paypal you are going against PayPal policy. It's quite simple, ask a price you want to sell for and keep it. When your item doesn't sell for three weeks or 100 bumps then drop your price so you are still comfortable with what you will make.


I see where you're coming from, but I see it a different way. Let's go to an ebay example that you have to use paypal for. You won an auction at $100 for an item. Now, when you go to pay, you also have to pay shipping. It is at this point that the seller can't tack on an additional 3% to make the total before shipping $103. This is because you can't go back and negotiate with the seller to only pay $97 for the item, add the $3 to bring the total before shipping to $100 (your auction win price).

Now we go to an example in the classifieds: He says add 3% before you are send any money at all. This isn't against paypal terms because you can continue to negotiate the price down before coming to a more agreeable number. For example: you both agree to $100 for the item. Then he says you will pay the 3% PP fees, which will make you pay $103. You don't accept this price (*and you are NOT obligated to send him this money as you would have been in the ebay example. This is the important difference!*), so you continue to negotiate down until you either get it for $100 including PP fees and shipping or walk away.

*The key difference between the classifieds and ebay (from which paypal was born) is that in a classifieds transaction, you aren't ever obligated to pay; in an ebay transaction, you are contractually bound to pay for the item that you won. That is why paypal forbids surcharges after the fact*


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

myang1989 said:


> I believe PP is there to protect buyers as they usually pay first before receiving the item. A seller could easily choose another form of payment to accept because he can count the cash before shipping out the item. The seller is willing to use PP, but they want the buyer to foot the fees by agreeing to a higher sale price for that insurance. You might not like the idea, but it makes perfect sense to me: why would a seller want to pay insurance for the buyer out of his own pocket?


Because that is PayPal policy! It's in black and white. You can use money order if you don't like PayPal rules and have your item sit in your house for months because 5% of people buying use money order.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

tpetrain said:


> if I buy on eBay its items with free shipping only. I have seen way to many items that should ship for $10 and they are charging $25 to make up for surcharges. Pretty simple to pick those sellers out.


That's a whole different situation. They are going against the rules by including the fee in the shipping. I agree with you there.


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

myang1989 said:


> I see where you're coming from, but I see it a different way. Let's go to an ebay example that you have to use paypal for. You won an auction at $100 for an item. Now, when you go to pay, you also have to pay shipping. It is at this point that the seller can't tack on an additional 3% to make the total before shipping $103. This is because you can't go back and negotiate with the seller to only pay $97 for the item, add the $3 to bring the total before shipping to $100 (your auction win price).
> 
> Now we go to an example in the classifieds: He says add 3% before you are send any money at all. This isn't against paypal terms because you can continue to negotiate the price down before coming to a more agreeable number. For example: you both agree to $100 for the item. Then he says you will pay the 3% PP fees, which will make you pay $103. You don't accept this price (*and you are NOT obligated to send him this money as you would have been in the ebay example. This is the important difference!*), so you continue to negotiate down until you either get it for $100 including PP fees and shipping or walk away.
> 
> *The key difference between the classifieds and ebay (from which paypal was born) is that in a classifieds transaction, you aren't ever obligated to pay; in an ebay transaction, you are contractually bound to pay for the item that you won. That is why paypal forbids surcharges after the fact*


Sure he can tack on the 3% on an eBay sale. They up the shipping price. You know how many items on eBay have the shipping inflated to make up for this. I am willing to guess over 75%. You can easily see when you buy something and it should be $10 to ship but they are charging $25. It's not hard to spot these sellers out. 
But I do understand what you are saying.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

tpetrain said:


> Sure he can tack on the 3% on an eBay sale. They up the shipping price. You know how many items on eBay have the shipping inflated to make up for this. I am willing to guess over 75%. You can easily see when you buy something and it should be $10 to ship but they are charging $25. It's not hard to spot these sellers out.


I'm not arguing about this practice. This is clearly against paypal terms to try to recoup the fees as a "shipping charge". You can easily go to paypal and present evidence of an overcharged shipping fee. I'm sure paypal would side with you on this one.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

TL;DR. the easiest way to avoid this mess is to get the buyer to agree to $103 TYD if you want to get $100 as a seller. Done deal.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

Mongostatus said:


> To me, the named TYD price is what I would pay in grand total to get the item in question to my door. That includes all shipping and fees, with the assumption that the seller will use whatever materials are necessary to pack the item safely, use the cheapest traceable shipping method, and include Signature Confirmation if required (in PayPal's case, item value over $750). It also assumes we're in the same country, and if we're not, the buyer would be responsible for any customs, duty or brokerage fees. This is how I've always approached selling on eBay (since 1998). When I started buying and selling privately on forums such as this, I was initially mystified by the 3% thing. As a seller, why not just build that into your price, if nothing else to avoid the turn-off of even the appearance of nickel-and-diming your buyers?


Agreed.



Mongostatus said:


> As a seller, I always use TYD to mean that's the total the buyer would pay to get the item to their door, regardless of what the final into-my-pocket amount is. No more and no less. As a buyer, I am far less likely to deal with sellers who state a price and then add shipping and PP fees as extra. In my experience, sellers who do this tend (though not all) to be the ones who don't describe their items honestly and are far more difficult to deal with should issues come up during or after the transaction.


This is purely anecdotal...It doesn't have to be the case.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

tpetrain said:


> Because that is PayPal policy! It's in black and white. You can use money order if you don't like PayPal rules and have your item sit in your house for months because 5% of people buying use money order.


Seriously though, don't you bend the rules here and there elsewhere in your life?


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

tpetrain said:


> Because that is PayPal policy! It's in black and white. You can use money order if you don't like PayPal rules and have your item sit in your house for months because 5% of people buying use money order.


It is written in PayPal's policy, but the timing of its application is being misconstrued here.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

spike camp said:


> Seriously though, don't you bend the rules here and there elsewhere in your life?


Rules are meant to be bent when used against you but held to the highest standard at all other times...


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

myang1989 said:


> Rules are meant to be bent when used against you but held to the highest standard at all other times...


No doubt-
I bend rules practically every single day...so I look at things like this PayPal policy, as more of a suggestion.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Lazarus said:


> As a seller you don't want to use PayPal and abide by their rules?
> 
> You could always accept only beads and furs in compensation for your product.




Isn't that how we ended up wit Manhattan


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

spike camp said:


> Seriously though, don't you bend the rules here and there elsewhere in your life?


I may be guilty of doing 75 in a 65. I guess my point is TYD is just that. No other fees are included unless you specify next day shipping or something special. I ship all my items priority mail with insurance with my TYD price, that way the package handlers have less time to damage anything. I just bought a bow on here last Wednesday and the price was $525TYD. He shipped the bow regular post and it is going to take a week. I should see it tomorrow but I doubt it. Shows it left Iowa on the 27 of April with no updates. I personally never ship a bow snail mail because way to much can happen to it in a weeks time. That was his choice and I don't fault him for it.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

I had a usps female employee tell me once, that the package handlers purposely rough handle Parcel post packages (snail mail).


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## tpetrain (Nov 25, 2013)

spike camp said:


> I had a usps female employee tell me once, that the package handlers purposely rough handle Parcel post packages (snail mail).


Yup. That is why I insure everything that leaves my hands. It's for my protection when it shows up damaged to buyer. I know it wasn't my fault but it is still my responsibility. Maybe that is why I have 100% feedback with over 20 bows sold plus hundred other things.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

spike camp said:


> I had a usps female employee tell me once, that the package handlers purposely rough handle Parcel post packages (snail mail).


You should tell them that the things they do in the bedroom should not carry over into the workplace.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

tpetrain said:


> Yup. That is why I insure everything that leaves my hands. It's for my protection when it shows up damaged to buyer. *I know it wasn't my fault but it is still my responsibility*. Maybe that is why I have 100% feedback with over 20 bows sold plus hundred other things.



hot damn! where's the like button???


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## Mongostatus (Apr 17, 2017)

myang1989 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> This is purely anecdotal...It doesn't have to be the case.


I probably should have bolded "though not all."


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

myang1989 said:


> I believe PP is there to protect buyers as they usually pay first before receiving the item. A seller could easily choose another form of payment to accept because he can count the cash before shipping out the item. The seller is willing to use PP, but they want the buyer to foot the fees by agreeing to a higher sale price for that insurance. You might not like the idea, but it makes perfect sense to me: why would a seller want to pay insurance for the buyer out of his own pocket?



Called PayPal... Your definition of "surcharge" and their's don't quite match up, and to them, both in the wording of their policies and the intent, giving a price and asking for the 3% in an ad is in their eyes a surcharge, as is listing a price and in your "negotiations" asking for the fee specifically because it will be a PP transaction. 

Understand you don't see it that way and how you justify the difference as to when PP is involved... PP just doesn't agree.


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## myang1989 (Dec 11, 2016)

ShootingBlind said:


> Called PayPal... Your definition of "surcharge" and their's don't quite match up, and to them, both in the wording of their policies and the intent, giving a price and asking for the 3% in an ad is in their eyes a surcharge, as is listing a price and in your "negotiations" asking for the fee specifically because it will be a PP transaction.
> 
> Understand you don't see it that way and how you justify the difference as to when PP is involved... PP just doesn't agree.


Ok. I stand corrected. Good to know. I will just continue to list my sales for 3% above what I want to receive.


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## colduke (Jan 9, 2016)

tpetrain said:


> Because that is PayPal policy! It's in black and white. You can use money order if you don't like PayPal rules and have your item sit in your house for months because 5% of people buying use money order.


Plus it's convenient for me as a seller to have the money instantly and not have to mess round with money orders. Having done plenty of eBay back when that was still common, I don't care that I lose 3% on PayPal transactions. It's the cost of doing business, just like a regular business deals with 3-5% fees for using a credit card. That fee is built into the cost of the goods. I think it's really strange that people here want to add on the PayPal fees. I'm happy to lose $3 to make the whole process easy and legitimate.


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## bow_hunter44 (Apr 20, 2007)

colduke said:


> Plus it's convenient for me as a seller to have the money instantly and not have to mess round with money orders. Having done plenty of eBay back when that was still common, I don't care that I lose 3% on PayPal transactions. It's the cost of doing business, just like a regular business deals with 3-5% fees for using a credit card. That fee is built into the cost of the goods. I think it's really strange that people here want to add on the PayPal fees.* I'm happy to lose $3 to make the whole process easy and legitimate.*


You and me both!


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## coilguy (Oct 3, 2012)

Frank-the-5th said:


> I agree, they should add it on to their price when they put the post up. If they want $700 for a bow and have fees covered they should just ask for $721
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CG


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## edthearcher (Nov 2, 2002)

so a guy posts what does TYD mean, 8 pages latter it turned into something else, i have been on AT almost from the start and have never seen a post like this


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

Well you never experienced members like this 10 years ago....


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

friedm1 said:


> again, i appreciate your apology, and i've already accepted your first one. no need to keep apologizing. sometimes its just not your day. both Archerytalk and myself commend you for being brave enough to just keep typing. You'll get through this.


Gotcha. When you see the flaw in your logic you fall back into a fantasy world. A simple thank you would have sufficed. For that, I truly am sorry that that happens. But you're certainly not alone these days.:wink: It's hard to remember that so many in here belong in romper room. As soon as logic is brought into the equation.......it's like playing chess with a pigeon.


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## bms (Apr 28, 2015)

edthearcher said:


> so a guy posts what does TYD mean, 8 pages latter it turned into something else, i have been on AT almost from the start and have never seen a post like this


Wow, yes 8 pages and 8 definitions of what it means!!!! Ha!


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## dorkus315 (Sep 11, 2015)

Another great post that came from a simple question. It's refreshing to see the variety of opinions when it comes to money. You can't get this banter on Craigslist or eBay. I've bought 10 bows on this site and a few dozen accessories. Only one seller ever asked for the PP fee and while I found it ridiculous for him even asking, I was getting the item for dirt cheap. With that he shipped 2 day priority mail. 

I figure I'm saving a lot of money on 2nd/3rd year bows and when the seller comes down on the price as most of them do after a few PM's, I'll toss the 3% in as part of the transaction. Only because I know they have to do the post office and traffic routine. And while I didn't think it was common practice for a seller to ask for the fee AFTER the fact, I now see that it does happen. I concur with the majority of the respondents in this topic when they say the price should be listed in full and no wonky business allowed. I would just walk away from the deal especially with those sellers trying to sell a used bow at new bow prices. You'll end up seeing his post with the phrase "deal fell thru, back TTT".


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## BlindBuck (Feb 7, 2009)

Man I surely don't get all this from the seller's perspective with PayPal fees. 

As a seller. Everything I list is TYD. I account for the PayPal fee, handling and shipping. I won't even except a money order. Which my adds clearly state. Why? Because there is protection both ways using PayPal and I receive my payment instantly. Well worth the price even if I didn't know about the PayPal fee. I am not waiting for Joe to go get a slushy and a money order and maybe making the walk to the mailbox the next day.

As a buyer. If the add states buyer pays the fee I won't even consider buying it. Why? If the seller is too lazy to add the fee in my mind they are not going to ship the item in a timely fashion either. Same goes with all of the adds that say text for pictures. I'll also pass if we agree to a price and then get the make sure you add 3% for PayPal after the fact.

So for all of the seller's out there. I'm sure you are missing plenty of opportunities to sell your item by just the way it is listed as I would be shocked if I am alone on this.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

BlindBuck said:


> Man I surely don't get all this from the seller's perspective with PayPal fees.
> 
> As a seller. Everything I list is TYD. I account for the PayPal fee, handling and shipping. I won't even except a money order. Which my adds clearly state. Why? Because there is protection both ways using PayPal and I receive my payment instantly. Well worth the price even if I didn't know about the PayPal fee. I am not waiting for Joe to go get a slushy and a money order and maybe making the walk to the mailbox the next day.
> 
> ...


No. You are not alone. Neither do I do business with people who advertise "ad 3% for paypal." Your post was 100% spot on. :cheers:


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## LetThemGrow (Apr 2, 2004)

BlindBuck said:


> Man I surely don't get all this from the seller's perspective with PayPal fees.
> 
> As a seller. Everything I list is TYD. I account for the PayPal fee, handling and shipping. I won't even except a money order. Which my adds clearly state. Why? Because there is protection both ways using PayPal and I receive my payment instantly. Well worth the price even if I didn't know about the PayPal fee. I am not waiting for Joe to go get a slushy and a money order and maybe making the walk to the mailbox the next day.
> 
> ...


Amen!


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

TYD is the total cost. When you offered 70.00tyd, that's the final cost to the buyer. Shipping, PayPal fees, etc.


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## dnv23 (Feb 8, 2011)

GVDocHoliday said:


> TYD is the total cost. When you offered 70.00tyd, that's the final cost to the buyer. Shipping, PayPal fees, etc.


This is correct, it's not that hard to understand people!


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

typical of AT...7 pages of what does TYD "TO YOUR DOOR" mean...lol- not sure why this is difficult to figure out.


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> Gotcha. When you see the flaw in your logic you fall back into a fantasy world. A simple thank you would have sufficed. For that, I truly am sorry that that happens. But you're certainly not alone these days.:wink: It's hard to remember that so many in here belong in romper room. As soon as logic is brought into the equation.......it's like playing chess with a pigeon.


no problem crazy man, im not sure what you have against pigeons.


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## rocks66ss (Jul 29, 2014)

5MilesBack said:


> Ok, now the buyer agrees to the $700 but requests it ship via 2nd day air to get it to his "door". As the seller, are you still sending it 2nd day air for the $700? Using your own logic.......yes, you are.


Use some common sense will you!











Rocky


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## friedm1 (Jan 31, 2007)

i said the same thing yesterday and some guy started ranting about cheeseburgers...this place sometimes.


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## Flatwoodshunter (Feb 3, 2013)

GVDocHoliday said:


> TYD is the total cost. When you offered 70.00tyd, that's the final cost to the buyer. Shipping, PayPal fees, etc.


^^^This^^^


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