# Feathers NOT vanes are encouraged for off the shelf shooting, but...



## thorwulfx (Sep 26, 2011)

I've shot vanes off the shelf, too. It all depends on the bow setup, really. It's not what I'd recommend to everyone, but I have a set of arrows for when it's really rainy or snowing that I've kept vanes on, and they do the job when the conditions are really lousy.

I think that a lot of sub-optimal setups can do okay, at least within a given value of "okay". If you're going to be shooting really long distances or for the points in a tournament, any additional hurdle, like arrows that have to overcome a little bump off the shelf, is going to make it tougher.

Absolutely agreed, though. I've actually shot a few of my best 20 yard groups with my longbow using vanes and arrows that are one spine category too stiff. Go figure.

Cheers,

Patrick


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## RecurvesOnly (May 23, 2011)

Thorwulfx, That's interesting what you're saying about 20 yard groups. Right now for the first time, I marked off the yard an additional 5 yards with the idea that if I can get to be pretty good at 25 yards, I should begin to shoot closer groups at the usual 20 yards.

Hey wait, I just clicked on your site! I really like it, let me get back to it!


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

Recurves Only,

From my perspective. 

Looking at your photo, your vanes are straight fletched. If you're using 5" vanes fletched with eleven degrees of helical, it won't work since I've tried it on my own bows and both of my bows have a radius shelf with more radius than you have on your Bear bow.

Another item. You didn't state what size your aluminum arrows are. Right now I'm shooting a 2212 aluminum arrow which is 22/64" in diameter. Your aluminum arrows look thinner in diameter than mine are which I'm going to guess are 2016s. So, there are variables which aren't being taken into consideration. 

Also keep in mind I shoot split finger and not 3 under.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Shoot through paper and see what is happening


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## RecurvesOnly (May 23, 2011)

Night Wing, The arrows are 2117 (Easton Fall Stalkers) straight fletching. The arrows themselves without points measure 31.25 inches (longer than most). They were purchased at Dicks Sporting Goods one at a time until I got the last two they had bringing my total to 17. I don't get it but it might be because of my 30" draw length, but these arrows fly very nice out of all my Bear Bows.


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

It has to be your setup with your Bear bow since I too have a 30" draw length and my arrows are cut 32" BOP (back of point), but I shoot two Blacktail recurves.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If you have tuned arrows - the so-called draw back of feathers - (shooting in the rain) is nonexistent. I would bet my bow that if you shoot those vanes through paper you would find out just how poor the flight really is - our brains can compensate for poor arrow flight and put an arrow that is flying badly where we want it. Put a broadhead on it and then go somewhere safe and shoot in the wind 20 yards and see how they are flying with those vanes.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you have tuned arrows - the so-called draw back of feathers - (shooting in the rain) is nonexistent.


If you're talking about it being non-existent with target points....I can pretty much agree to that...BUT...there can be some flight issues with broadheads...when the feathers are laying down soaking wet...even with well tuned arrows.

Ray :shade:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Hey Ray,
Flight issues don't have much effect on point of impact given a proper close hunting shot. I pratice shooting wet feathers with broadheads because I expect that to be the normal Oct/Nov weather around here. It's another good reason to consider 5 1/2 inch with helical fletching. It's fun to watch them spin the water off.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have never had an issue with wet feathers - broadhead or not


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Eldermike said:


> Flight issues don't have much effect on point of impact given a proper close hunting shot.


I think it really depends on how wet the feathers are and how big your broadheads are. In some cases it may be just enough to cause a poor hit.

When the feathers are basically laying down flat...and I'm not talking normal shape and being a little wet...and a bowhunter is using a large broadhead...especially some of those big wide 2 blades...there can be some flight issues.

It's not really an issue with mechanicals our small narrow broadheads.



Eldermike said:


> I pratice shooting wet feathers with broadheads because I expect that to be the normal Oct/Nov weather around here. It's another good reason to consider 5 1/2 inch with helical fletching.


It's smart to test our set ups out like you have. It's just gives us that reassurance concerning our gear and the situations some of us bowhunters may find ourselves in.

Ray :shade:


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## RecurvesOnly (May 23, 2011)

Here's another thing, I just got into fletching with the $30 Grayling jig, I have a nice supply of 5" vanes red and white. I want to gradually get them on these arrows, replacing the 4" vanes, adjusting the degrees with a slight offset. So far I'm going with "if it's not broke, don't fix it".


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

"_I, I_, stick a finger in your eye!"

For the sake of new (trad) shooters and regarding the use of feathers, the term "I" needs to be qualified as not to mean universal, for everyone, at all times, etc.

-Can wet feathers affect flight and dynamic spine? Yes. 
-Can an arrow with wet feathers still produce successful flight performance? Yes...maybe. End result depends on how saturated the fletch is, how well the bow is tuned, how good your release was, and broadhead type.
-Because you have had good results when you have previously shot a wet fletch, can you count on the results always being the same? No. 

Fletch is the arrow's stabilizer and stabilization is obtained by the _total surface area_ of the fletch, and whether the fletch is set straight, offset, or helical. Not the weight of the fletch. Nevertheless, the added weight of moisture can affect dynamic spine and now that you have lost all or a percentage of the stabilizer the flight/accuracy problem may be compounded. 

Though I utilize methods to prevent wet feathers, there have been occasions that I too have had to make a shot with damp feathers (not saturated) and obtained successful results. Regardless, I would never assume that the results will always be the same and be indifferent to what could happen. If my fletch becomes wet; if time permits I will change out my shaft.

Bottom line: Keep your fletch dry.

As for shooting _vanes_ off a recurve; trad shooters do and claim good results. But here is something you can take to the bank regarding using vanes on a trad bow, especially if shooting off the shelf; your tune had better be and remain at 10 on a scale of 1-10, and your release had better (always) be consistently clean. Otherwise, when the vinyl vane slams against the shelf/riser, the arrow just might hit the squirrel on the limb rather than the deer on the deck.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> "_I, I_, stick a finger in your eye!"
> 
> For the sake of new (trad) shooters and regarding the use of feathers, the term "I" needs to be qualified as not to mean universal, for everyone, at all times, etc.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Just to get some facts out here - weight on the nock end of the arrow does not have the same effect on dynamic spine as weight at the tip end - you have to change weight at the nock end by a significant amount before you will see any change in arrow flight - whereas at the tip end as little as 10 grains and you can begin to see different tears when paper tuning. I have in the past shot two blade cut on contact non-vented magnus heads out of my bows in pouring rain where the fletching was laying flat against the shaft and had no issues with flight - at hunting distances - 20 yards or so - I can only speak to me and what has happened to me - but I don't worry about it. Besides - I rarely hunt in the rain anymore - because I do not like to watch blood trails vanish before my eyes.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Satellite/computer is really slow at the moment, so I read through some of this before the picture came up…and was working from an entirely different vision of “nearly level”. Of course, perceptions are relative, but with your arrow making contact at the forward-most part of the shelf I’d consider the condition to be noticeably above level. Now above level (pointing slightly downhill) is how I usually set up my bows for shooting split fingers…but I’ve never had an arrangement that was that far from level.

Sooo…before the picture came up I was reasoning that your arrows might be bouncing up off the shelf, but now I see the shaft making contact at the far end of the shelf, and vanes don’t have a chance of making significant contact with it until there’re half way across it…and by then the front of the shaft should be going through some heavy flexing. Just not how I set things up...so I'm still a bit curious about what's happening, but a little less surprised.

Oh well, I’d say it’s good you’re happy with it but a bit deeper study might be in order. What eventually sells me on a bow/arrow configuration, after getting good flight, is an absence of abnormal wear-patterns and/or rate-of-wear on the shelf material and side plate. That’s something I just can’t know without shooting lots of arrows.
Good Luck with it. Enjoy, Rick.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

For me the thing about feathers NOT vanes is that I am absolutely against it for newbies. Get some time under your belt and learn how to tune and I know that it does become possible. Just don't send newbies down such a potentially frustrating path by suggesting that since you can do it, and you've been doing it successfully for the last 20 years, they should do it too.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _weight on the nock end of the arrow does not have the same effect on dynamic spine as weight at the tip end _- you have to change weight at the nock end by a significant amount before you will see any change in arrow flight


True! But how much additional (_significant amount_) _nock-end _weight in grains would you believe it would take to affect the dynamic spine and possibly cause a spine issue if, say the shaft is red-lined just shy of being too stiff? 

We won't (yet) factored in that if the fletch is wet or soaked, the limbs and the string must also be holding considerable moisture.


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