# Interesting conversation....



## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)




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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

scootershooter1 said:


> View attachment 2207835


Well, I know who to blame if my computer crashes


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

I'd comment but I'm pretty much speechless at this point. And I read the OP over an hour ago. 

If you think about it on a much deeper level I really do like the fact he used a turkey as his analogy to subconscious shooting. It fits to a T in my opinion, just my opinion. I hope I'm allowed to have one.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I like to cook my turkey in the smoker, where you have to keep an eye on the water, the heat, and the chips. It requires a lot more focus on more things, but in the end you get the best results if you don't miss one of the steps.

Best way to eat any yard bird.


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## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)

I see what you did there...


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## nate0404 (Dec 7, 2013)

Interesting perspective, and interesting timing as I was just thinking about this very topic this morning while shooting. My thoughts on subconscious shooting and muscle memory. In my opinion they are one in the same. Archery is a motor skill and like all motor skills the more you practice the easier they get. As you are learning something you have to be very conscious of each step required to complete the task successfully, once you have practiced enough to master the task, little to no conscious thought is required to complete the task successfully. The muscle memory has been developed and encoded in your brain, allowing you to focus on other more important things(like an X) while simultaneously performing the task. 

Close your eyes. Bend down and tie your shoe. A motor skill that we all learned many years ago that once required serious thought and attention is now so easy that many times we don't realize that we are doing it. 

But if you make a form change in tying your shoe you will be surprised how much thought can be required. If you normally make the first loop with your left hand when tying your shoe, close your eyes and tie your shoe making the first loop with your right hand. Most will find that this is much more difficult. We all know how to tie a shoe but it is much easier and more efficient to let the subconscious brain take over and perform the task. Why not let the subconscious mind shoot our bows? 

When I shoot my best I am on complete cruise control, not thinking about anything, just pounding x's. I'm not thinking about my float, my shoulder position, my anchor, looking at the dot, not thinking about maintaining back tension, or how to fire my release, or if I am keeping my bow arm up, I am not thinking about anything. Just shooting. And for the record I am not thinking about not thinking. Just shooting.

So it seems that you came to your conclusion about subconscious shooting when trying something new, I don't think that you can really develop the muscle memory required in a few hundred shots. You are still in the learning phase. I agree with you that when developing your form you have to be very aware of your body and it's movements in order to identify error, but at some point your new way of shooting will just be your way of shooting and at that point cruise control is pretty sweet. I am dealing with this very thing at the moment after a pretty significant form change and am really looking forward to getting back to the point where subconscious shooting takes over.

And to your point about giving up control. I don't look at it like I'm giving up the control, I see it as shifting the control to a more reliable part of my brain. There is a reason that we don't have to remember to breath or pump our blood and it's because we would forget from time to time. 

It the end of you conversation with your friend you reference the shot feeling good but not going where you want it to go, and that is what practicing is for, and you have to walk before you can run. And I agree 100%, but I think that process of practicing and walking before running is encoding the muscle memory to the point that you can achieve good shots and get them to go where you are aiming without much thought. 

It would seem sensible that if someone is always tinkering with their form or shot execution that they may never get to experience the joy that is shooting on cruise control.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

scootershooter1 said:


> I see what you did there...


No cruise control for me. I think the turkey analogy is much better than the car anaology.

Close to 100% of drivers can keep a car between the lines. How many can keep the driver's side front tire on the center line on a twisty road? I guess it all depends on what your goals are.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I don't have the back story because I don't read all (any of) the threads here on execution methodologies. The last thing I want to do is think about how my shot is fired.....which I suppose exposes my politics on the issue.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> I don't have the back story because I don't read all (any of) the threads here on execution methodologies. The last thing I want to do is think about how my shot is fired.....which I suppose exposes my politics on the issue.


:thumbs_up


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

nate0404 said:


> It would seem sensible that if someone is always tinkering with their form or shot execution that they may never get to experience the joy that is shooting on cruise control.


There was a lot in that post to address, but I will boil it down to this one issue because it pretty much summarizes my approach to it. 

I'm just going to go on record as saying this; I will not ever, and don't care to ever shoot "subconciously." Why? Because I haven't reached total perfection in a shot, and never will. Sure, there will be times that I can go extended periods making "good enough" shots, but still never achieve total perfection in the shot process. Mainly because my shoe that I'm tying isn't static. And if the wind blows I can't tie my shoe as perfectly as I can when it doesn't. 

Granted. If I ever personally approach "subconscious" shooting it's when I'm competing, just trying to pound. But as for any other time, no way. When I practice, (listen close,) I practice, I don't "shoot." And a lot of the time I'm dang sure not enjoying it because I'm working my butt off. 

Kinda like a guy once said......."are you practicing, or are you shooting?" Big difference. And (in my view) you can't "practice" if you are doing it subconsciously, unless of course your shot is totally perfect, (who's is?) and you're shooting in a controlled environment. 

Maybe not the "universally accepted" way of thinking, but it's my way of thinking, and I'll stand by it. To each and every one their own. :cheers:


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> I don't have the back story because I don't read all (any of) the threads here on execution methodologies. The last thing I want to do is think about how my shot is fired.....which I suppose exposes my politics on the issue.


Fair enough tmorelli. Being's how you're a top level shooter, then how do you improve? How do you correct what you're doing wrong? Or maybe you're 100% comfortable with your process? And how does your shot work when the wind blows you off the bale?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Lazarus said:


> Fair enough tmorelli. Being's how you're a top level shooter, then how do you improve? How do you correct what you're doing wrong? Or maybe you're 100% comfortable with your process? And how does your shot work when the wind blows you off the bale?


Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm not what I consider top level. 

How do I improve? Aim.... Better....harder....in a more efficient....more relaxed mental and physical state.... Honestly, I'm digging here. I don't think about "improving"... (Which indicates something must be different to be as excellent as I want it to be)... I think about doing exactly what I do at the best level it can be done. So, to that extent, maybe I am 100% comfortable with my process. That isn't to say you wouldn't find me working on some element of form or even execution....but it is to say I'd be disappointed to be found doing it outside of a pure training environment. When I'm shooting for score, aiming is ALL I want to do....which implies I trust everything else to take care of itself and the arrow to somehow end up where I aimed.

When the wind blows me off bail, the shot doesn't develop until the sight picture is restored.... Sure, I have shots that break when the pin isn't there.... Sometimes they miss....but I trust a mediocre sight picture and allow shot to proceed if my mind/eye are where they should be. I live in OK so wind is every day. It sucks but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Very good tmorelli. Nice explanation. In the competition environment I'd say we're totally on the same page. :cheers: But again, practice is a totally different ballgame with me. I doubt most people practice as hard, (not numbers wise per se) as I do. I want to practice so hard that competing is a cake walk. And it pretty much is. I absolutely LOVE shooting arrows that score, because it's a welcome break from what I put myself through on a daily basis on the practice bail. 

:cheers:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> I don't have the back story because I don't read all (any of) the threads here on execution methodologies. The last thing I want to do is think about how my shot is fired.....*which I suppose exposes my politics on the issue*.


We're all here just to cure boredom aren't we? A few are willing to throw out some thoughts and the fish come to feed. Whether it's here or the gen pop, the discourse is the same.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> We're all here just to cure boredom aren't we? A few are willing to throw out some thoughts and the fish come to feed. Whether it's here or the gen pop, the discourse is the same.


Just saying I don't read it because I don't want my mind on it.


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## nate0404 (Dec 7, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> There was a lot in that post to address, but I will boil it down to this one issue because it pretty much summarizes my approach to it.
> 
> I'm just going to go on record as saying this; I will not ever, and don't care to ever shoot "subconciously." Why? Because I haven't reached total perfection in a shot, and never will. Sure, there will be times that I can go extended periods making "good enough" shots, but still never achieve total perfection in the shot process. Mainly because my shoe that I'm tying isn't static. And if the wind blows I can't tie my shoe as perfectly as I can when it doesn't.
> 
> ...


Well said and I can appreciate that. But if it is accepted that we can only consciously think about one thing at a time which one thing do you choose to focus on? Do you have a checklist of conscious thoughts that when met get handed over to the subconscious, and ultimately you consciously fire the release?


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

nate0404 said:


> Well said and I can appreciate that. But if it is accepted that we can only consciously think about one thing at a time which one thing do you choose to focus on? Do you have a checklist of conscious thoughts that when met get handed over to the subconscious, and ultimately you consciously fire the release?


Excellent question. Here is my take; 

There are things like stance, grip, draw, transfer, anchor, and maintaining tension that are rote skills, there's no variables to deal with. Easily these can become parts of the process that can be done subconsciously. That's one set of pieces to the puzzle.

Next, there is maybe the most important piece to the puzzle, aiming. In my view it's not a subconscious act because your body has a built in mechanism that aligns concentric circles. Literally all you have to do is stare at what you want to hit, your brain takes care of the rest. (This is why so many successful shooters shoot a ring. They look at what they want to hit and forget about it. No need to chase that rabbit though.) Regardless, if you are looking (properly) at what you want to hit you really don't see anything else. This is just a natural act. Why not allow the body to do the centering work for you? 

Next, there is the firing process. Although it's not a totally conscious act it's far from subconscious. If it were it would go off on a timer with every single shot regardless of external inputs such as distance, wind, dot size, etc. When any of these things come into play (negatively) you just see a great big stop sign. If you were truly performing the act subconsciously you would blow right through it. And yes, some people do blow right through it, and they often miss. 

Last, it's been held for so long that "the body can only do one thing at a time" that it has became gospel in the archery world. Well, with regard to psychology that might be correct. But with regard to shooting a bow it's a myth. (Yes, Mahly, I said that, and I stand by it. Please don't delete it.) One has to look no further than the fact that the body aids you in centering your circles, then consciously execute a release to know you can do two things at the same time. Furthermore, we haven't even discussed the amazing ability the body has to shift from one task to another in fractions of seconds, add to that the fact that the brain can process it...........well, for far too long the archery world has been sold a whole bunch of myths about shooting that have tended to teach people about impossibilities. The body/brain is a limitless system, I choose to believe in possibilities instead of "impossibilities." 

This is just a very brief run down of some of my thoughts. It could be a whole essay. As always, my opinion. Please keep in mind I'm a shooter, not a coach or teacher. I could no more teach someone how to effectively shoot a bow than my 10 year old could. 

Good shootin! :cheers:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> Excellent question. Here is my take;
> 
> There are things like stance, grip, draw, transfer, anchor, and maintaining tension that are rote skills, there's no variables to deal with. Easily these can become parts of the process that can be done subconsciously. That's one set of pieces to the puzzle.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!!!


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## nate0404 (Dec 7, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> Excellent question. Here is my take;
> 
> There are things like stance, grip, draw, transfer, anchor, and maintaining tension that are rote skills, there's no variables to deal with. Easily these can become parts of the process that can be done subconsciously. That's one set of pieces to the puzzle.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> Excellent question. Here is my take;
> 
> There are things like stance, grip, draw, transfer, anchor, and maintaining tension that are rote skills, there's no variables to deal with. Easily these can become parts of the process that can be done subconsciously. That's one set of pieces to the puzzle.
> 
> ...


No "moon phase" here  (Laz and me). Nicely put, Laz.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Tmorelli is taking a more standard approach to staying on top of his game, I have heard many top shooters talk about this over the years where they don't try new or different firing methods or aiming techniques. Why? Because they are 100% confident in their current approach and for them it allows them to shoot a a high level and and not be in a constant "WHAT AM I GOING TO TRY THIS WEEK" mode. They don't have to think about how to fire or compare this weeks feel to last weeks feel with a different method they were using and then pick the good one. Same goes with everything in their shot process from form to aiming to execution.

For me I am totally self taught and I had to go through a few years of training with different methods to get to my current level and I did it by specifically defining certain times during the year as training months. Since I am a 3d guy it was easy to just do the late fall and winter months as my training months where I used many of these methods and became proficient with them being able to switch back and forth between them daily or every shot if needed. 

What is cool is that right now I am in the early part of the 3d season and I actually asked myself the other day what freaking firing engine I was using and you know, I couldn't really answer the question. In fact I actually stopped thinking about it and am currently more like tmorelli and I am not going to think about it because I am shooting really freaking good and things are running really smooth and my training months are over and it is time to score big.

In fact right now here is my thought process when I come to a 3d stake:

1. judge the distance and set my sight.

2. come to the stake when it is my turn and get my feet set really good and soak up the poor footing 

3. check to see if the sight tape was set to the correct number and look at the target and take a mental picture of what my pin should look like floating on the 12 ring.

4. Remind myself to release the thumb peg smoothly 

5. Draw the bow and release the peg very smoothly and settle in on the 12 ring and execute.

Arrow Gone.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Tmorelli is taking a more standard approach to staying on top of his game, I have heard many top shooters talk about this over the years where they don't try new or different firing methods or aiming techniques. Why? Because they are 100% confident in their current approach and for them it allows them to shoot a a high level and and not be in a constant "WHAT AM I GOING TO TRY THIS WEEK" mode. They don't have to think about how to fire or compare this weeks feel to last weeks feel with a different method they were using and then pick the good one. Same goes with everything in their shot process from form to aiming to execution.


Really? That's interesting. Reo made a video just a couple of weeks ago that was unveiling a new release. That's not what I'm going to talk about here. What he did say in the video was the release was a response to a challenge that everybody (even those of us that have shot that way for "decades") has experienced. The tightness in the forefinger that [email protected] our ability to fire a release when the pressure is on. 

So.........what you just said above tells me that "top shooters" don't look for a way to refine their process? That's ridiculous Padgett. 

And where did all this "firing engine" stuff come from? I didn't see anyone talking about it. Maybe I missed it though.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

To the original post.
If that is making them shoot better, I think it's great. I'm not sure how birds prefer to shoot archery, but I'm quite sure not everyone wants to control every detail of every shot.....kinda sounds like punching to me. Punching CAN be very accurate....but often leads to TP (it did for me).
I was is the total control crowd. I focussed on my aiming, MADE the dot sit where I wanted to, and fired the shot. I was one of the best in my league of about 50 guys. In time I started getting TP. Forcing the dot got harder and harder. Eventually, I would spend more and more time on the line with each arrow. Thank God there was no timer as it took me longer to shoot 2 arrows than anyone else took to shoot all 5 (automatic lanes so I wasn't holding up the whole line).
So I had to make some BIG changes. Started shooting a hinge, and got to see how my float improved VERY quickly at first. Eventually I broke my hinge, and got a nice Thumb trigger that I could shoot in the same manner.
I recently (last year or so?) got BACK into shooting a hinge, and with more help here (set-up, engines etc) really improved my shooting even with very little real practice time. 
I found that for ME, "Cruise control" lets me focus on the driving (aiming). When I use that, I can focus on keeping "the driver's side front tire on the center line on a twisty road" without having to adjust the gas pedal and watch the speedo.

Not going to get into the turkey baking analogies, as they really don't make much sense to me.
And Laz, I'm actually more in agreement with the "the body can only do one thing at a time" debate. Of course I won't call it a "myth" but in respect to archery, it either isn't accurate, or we can switch back and forth so quickly that it has the same effect as doing 2 things at the same time.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Tough crowd today.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'm not what I consider top level.
> 
> How do I improve? Aim.... Better....harder....in a more efficient....more relaxed mental and physical state.... Honestly, I'm digging here. I don't think about "improving"... (Which indicates something must be different to be as excellent as I want it to be)... I think about doing exactly what I do at the best level it can be done. So, to that extent, maybe I am 100% comfortable with my process. That isn't to say you wouldn't find me working on some element of form or even execution....but it is to say I'd be disappointed to be found doing it outside of a pure training environment. When I'm shooting for score, aiming is ALL I want to do....which implies I trust everything else to take care of itself and the arrow to somehow end up where I aimed.


I just re-read this topic and stumbled upon a jewel that I kind of blew by before. That's the above quote. I believe what he just said to be a literal clinic for shooting in competition. I don't care of the idea at all for practice, but for competition, it's spot on. 

Do I have permission to print this off and read it over and over during pre tournament prep? :teeth:


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Padgett said:


> Tmorelli is taking a more standard approach to staying on top of his game, I have heard many top shooters talk about this over the years where they don't try new or different firing methods or aiming techniques. Why? Because they are 100% confident in their current approach and for them it allows them to shoot a a high level and and not be in a constant "WHAT AM I GOING TO TRY THIS WEEK" mode. They don't have to think about how to fire or compare this weeks feel to last weeks feel with a different method they were using and then pick the good one. Same goes with everything in their shot process from form to aiming to execution...





Lazarus said:


> Really? That's interesting. Reo made a video just a couple of weeks ago that was unveiling a new release. That's not what I'm going to talk about here. What he did say in the video was the release was a response to a challenge that everybody (even those of us that have shot that way for "decades") has experienced. The tightness in the forefinger that [email protected] our ability to fire a release when the pressure is on.
> 
> So.........what you just said above tells me that "top shooters" don't look for a way to refine their process? That's ridiculous Padgett.
> 
> And where did all this "firing engine" stuff come from? I didn't see anyone talking about it. Maybe I missed it though.


I didn't see that in his (Padgett's) post. Refining your technique is different than changing from one technique to the other. Being confident in your chosen technique doesn't mean you can't refine and improve that technique.

As for firing engines, I pretty much thought that's what this was about. (or baking methods  )


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Tough crowd today.


Don't take it that way Padgett. If I was a little harsh I didn't mean to be. My apologies. It's just......everything is not about "firing engines" and our accomplishments. :cheers:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that you are aware of the fact that I just came off a entire indoor training season because you have been involved in almost all of the discussions all winter about a variety of the subjects. You know that I practice and train with a variety of methods to fire a hinge and I refer to them as firing engines, I also train with a variety of aiming techniques. 

Every winter when I talk about those training sessions I have very good shooters pm me and they tell me to stop doing it and commit to one method and only spend my time doing that one thing and master it and I would be better off. I have always responded back to them and told them that I don't feel like I can do that because I feel a responsibility to be proficient at all of them so that when I do work with someone I can actually give them truthful advice from somebody that actually is proficient at it at that time instead of somebody that just tried it a couple times and didn't like it so they now bash it. I am truly proficient at a variety of methods.

But now it is 3d season and I am advanced enough now in my career to commit once my primary season starts and actually do one aiming method and one firing method and not switch around all the time searching for something that works. All I am saying is that tmorelli has been shooting a long time and he has a coach that is respected and he isn't searching for answers to his shooting, he is just doing the best he can to perform with what he has chosen as his approach. 

Now two weeks ago I was shooting a few days with my new hinge design The Reverse Hinge and it forced me to use a different kind of firing engine and mental focus for those 20 or so shots for that day but I wasn't doing it to replace anything I am committed to for this season. I was just shooting with my reverse hinge to type up a presentation to a couple release companies to throw the idea to them and hopefully get them to produce one.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Mahly said:


> I'm quite sure not everyone wants to control every detail of every shot......


Mahly, this sentence really jumped out at me. In short, there is a huge difference between "controlling every detail of every shot" and just using your melon for what it was designed for. I respect your position. But I have to land on the side of the "thinking archer." Now........does it take incredible discipline to stand there and watch that little x center in the lens and the shot not go off? Of course it does. Those who can't avoid trying to rush the process because of their anxieties just haven't exercised the proper mental approach. Simple as that in my opinion. 

If it seems I advocate a "controlled" shot that's not accurate. I advocate a _thinking_ shot.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm a firm believer that if you can execute one perfect shot and have the arrow land right where you aimed while doing it that you can physically do it a million times. The reason that we can't repeat that lies between our ears. The more pieces of the shot that we can remove from between our ears, the more times we can shoot the perfect shot without our brains coming in and screwing it up.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Supermag1 said:


> The more pieces of the shot that we can remove from between our ears, the more times we can shoot the perfect shot without our brains coming in and screwing it up.


So you're saying that the one perfect shot was just _created_ from nowhere, without any thought? 

Seems logical. :teeth: 

When someone tells me how I can get back on the bale without thinking about it after a gust of wind just blew me onto the adjacent target I might listen.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Padgett said:


> But now it is 3d season and I am advanced enough now in my career


BTW....what is your career? What do you do for a living?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Lazarus said:


> Really? That's interesting. Reo made a video just a couple of weeks ago that was unveiling a new release. That's not what I'm going to talk about here. What he did say in the video was the release was a response to a challenge that everybody (even those of us that have shot that way for "decades") has experienced. The tightness in the forefinger that [email protected] our ability to fire a release when the pressure is on.


I'll try not to venture too far off topic here. JMHO, Reo is talking about using equipment to bandaid a common execution problem... hanging up in the release due to excess/misplaced tension in the shot. Padgett is talking about changing the process...or the method. They are not the same thing.




Mahly said:


> To the original post.
> If that is making them shoot better, I think it's great. I'm not sure how birds prefer to shoot archery, but I'm quite sure not everyone wants to control every detail of every shot.....kinda sounds like punching to me. Punching CAN be very accurate....but often leads to TP (it did for me).
> I was is the total control crowd. I focussed on my aiming, MADE the dot sit where I wanted to, and fired the shot. .


You're talking about the *holding* (***and "making" it shoot)... not *aiming* (***And letting it shoot).


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> So you're saying that the one perfect shot was just _created_ from nowhere, without any thought?
> 
> Seems logical. :teeth:
> 
> When someone tells me how I can get back on the bale without thinking about it after a gust of wind just blew me onto the adjacent target I might listen.


That is where I get hung up too. It would be perfectly acceptable to me for that guy to change every "our" or "we" in his post to "I" or me". He is saying he knows what's best for all of us and we just need to shut our brains off and shoot. Does he know that many of us have done that already and peaked. Does he know that when we started looking at every shot as an independent condition, we started getting close to perfect games?

I stand firmly behind the notion that if a guy is happy with his performance on autopilot, carry on. Don't discourage others from focusing on one or more aspects of the shot just because you don't think it will work though.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Anyone ever read "Zen & the Art of Archery"?

It is challenging.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a math teacher.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Anyone ever read "Zen & the Art of Archery"?
> 
> It is challenging.


Alot of big words?


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> I am a math teacher.


You guys must miss a lot of school out there. I was just curious. I don't have time to devote to this .....as much you apparently do.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> Alot of big words?


No. I read it as a teenager.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I think the first time I learned about putting my body on auto pilot was back in school when I started pitching no hitters and perfect games, back then I learned to repeat the exact same windup and follow through over and over pitch after pitch and with throwing a baseball you have absolutely no sights to focus on. Back then I did try and burn a hole and super focus on the catchers mitt and I think back then I learned the same lesson that I have had to learn again with archery that it produces tunnel vision and you loose your ability to supervise your body and the execution that is needed. The difference in pitching and archery is that in pitching I had a fastball and a cut fastball and a two seam fast ball and a 4 seam fastball and a curve ball and a slider and a split finger fastball all of which I had to be able to throw to a location by slightly different finger pressures and wrist rotations and the ball slipping through my fingers perfectly when throwing the splitty.

I think the backbone of my lessons was always my fastball because I threw it more than anything else and it was something I could just rely on very similar to a 20 yard 5-spot x. I just executed my wind up and follow through and during the game if the ball was a few inches off I would put a little pressure on my middle finger or index finger to move it back over. I see archery very much the same, I do have a very high level of concentration when it is time to shoot my arrow at a stake but I take a more supervisory position over the shot where my job is to watch what is going on and listen to all the sensors in my body and not ignore any of them when they are screaming something is wrong. Other than that I am very focused on my pin and target that I am trying to hit and the fact that they are looking like a perfect float pattern that is doing what I already knew it would. Then the release fires and I load another arrow and repeat.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My senior year when i pitched my perfect game against Bolivar, Mo I actually failed and it still bothers me to this day. I had to strike out the number 3 hitter who was a college prospect to end the game and I totally went 3 and 0, I took a deep breath and told myself to get my arm up because I was getting really tired and couldn't raise it up easily. The coach had given him the take and I threw two solid strikes down the middle and got to 3 and 2. So I am one pitch from my perfect game and I dug deep and began my windup and I raised my front leg and felt my body start exploding to home and it hit me that my arm was to low and I was going to throw the ball to high but there is no let down in baseball so the pitch was on its way right down the center of the plate about head level to the catcher and the number 3 hitter took a cut and missed and I got my perfect game. It has always bothered me that I personally failed that day and it took another guys mistake to give me what I wanted really bad. 

I really see archery no different, I have certain things on my check list of things that when they happen I let down. In baseball there is no let down and once you start your motion to home you just have to send the ball on its way. So when people talk about auto pilot I don't see it as some willy nilly I don't care where my pin is and it is a crappy float and I am just going to fling the arrow. I see it as you have a feel for a perfect shot that you are trying to execute and feel and you are the supervisor that has the ability to abort if things are not right or allow if they are not right or let down if they are not right.

I can honestly say that I no longer send arrows to the target when I know that something is wrong, that doesn't mean that I hit every 12 ring. All it means is that when I realize that something is wrong I simply let down.

I have a feeling that this would be something that would change if I was a fita shooter such as jesse and reo and braden because they have that timer clock and there is simply not enough time to let down and they must continue the shot regardless of what they are seeing or feeling or needing to do and these guys are the best in the world at handling it.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

http://www.ideologic.org/files/Eugen_Herrigel_-_Zen_in_the_Art_of_Archery.pdf

Thanks, T. I'll look at it closer when get the time.



edit: Dang. Wouldn't you know there would be a rebuttal.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/The_Myth_of_Zen_in_the_Art_of_Archery.pdf


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Anyone ever read "Zen & the Art of Archery"?
> 
> It is challenging.


Yes. i have a copy right here. But I don't think Zen would have made an exceptional freestyler. :cheers:


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

(Personal opinion ) the single thing at a time comes from conscious thought fir example try the following pat your head rub your tummy hop on your non dominant foot and sing your abc's all at the same time if you can do all of the above immediately without effort then you are different 99% of the world can't but with practice they can but it requires turning the activities over to the little mind in the background that multitasks all the time it walks processes food watches for hazards balances you processes audio input visual input pumps blood breathes oxegynates the blood and expels carbon monoxide recogines smells......... We do automatic things all the time catch a ball take a step and throw it to first base doesn't take much thought once trained to the point of reflex. Archery is the same we just need to get the same amount of repetition with out Channing technique that we do with other sports when was the last time a new way to aim a pitched ball came out NOT it doesn't happen it is a natural aim same thing needs to be applied to archery. When shooting with mike s at Nats he just aims looks at the middle and shoots his technique is refined to the point he is not micromanaging the sport like many of us are trying to. 

Archery is about doing it the same over and over and over if it is 100% repeatable you can shoot perfect scores ( environment aside wind rain etc) but the rest is systematic. Again just my opinion.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Ok, first try, I was able to pat my head rub my belly, hop on non dominant foot, and recite my ABCs
I guess that's where I got my opinions on the matter of doing only one thing at a time.
Oddly enough I did a similar exercise when developing my cruise control technique.
I can focus on my aiming, count in prime numbers, and run my engine (or let it run itself) at the same time.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Lazarus said:


> So you're saying that the one perfect shot was just _created_ from nowhere, without any thought?
> 
> Seems logical. :teeth:
> 
> When someone tells me how I can get back on the bale without thinking about it after a gust of wind just blew me onto the adjacent target I might listen.


So when you're driving in your car and something pops up unexpectedly in front of you like a deer, do you have to consciously think "I better take my foot off the gas and press on the brakes" or does your leg make that switch and slam on the brakes before the though of "oh &*^%" clears your mind?

The perfect shot is created through thousands of shots of practice getting the muscle memory and subconscious motions set to make it so the arrow goes where the pin was. From your smart alec comments on this thread, this stuff is all way over your head and you don't actually want to learn and are just here to stir up trouble (as you pretty much said in your first post).


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Supermag1 said:


> From your smart alec comments on this thread, this stuff is all way over your head and you don't actually want to learn and are just here to stir up trouble (as you pretty much said in your first post).


Heh-heh. Ok. You got me there. Way over my head. Yes, of course you're right. :wink: See ya on the line. :cheers:

By the way, you didn't answer the question. :wink:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Lazarus said:


> Yes. i have a copy right here. But I don't think Zen would have made an exceptional freestyler. :cheers:


True.

I don't talk much about my personal performances (at tournaments or in practice) but this is on topic. I just got back from practice where I shot my personal best ASA 20 target round (by bonus ring count and by score without 14's in play). 

My commitment for training today; simply said..... *DO* ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (once I hit my anchor). 

What that means to me.... *JUST* aim. JUST wait. Absolute patience. Make nothing happen.... no rotation, no pulling, no pushing, no relaxing, no thinking, no nothing....just wait.

What that really means.... TRUST your preparation. I've got years and years and thousands and thousands of arrows in training that lead to me to this very moment. Nothing is going to be "figured out" right here, right now. My shot is well developed all I have to do is aim and stay out of my own way.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I wish people would get over this "like driving a car" analogy. You can put a ten year old behind the wheel and within a matter of minutes they could keep it between the lines.

There is a lot more going on than just steering the dot or pin. If it was that simple, everyone would be shooting 60X games every time.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

tmorelli said:


> My commitment for training today; simply said..... *DO* ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (once I hit my anchor).
> 
> What that means to me.... *JUST* aim. JUST wait. Absolute patience. Make nothing happen....


I realize this is something that you're working on and are still smoothing out the edges, but when you were successful at just aiming, did you shot timing remain about the same or did it widen a little? Just a question asked out of curiosity as I plan to start working on something similar once I finish setting up my outdoor rig.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Supermag1 said:


> ......From your smart alec comments on this thread, this stuff is all way over your head and you don't actually want to learn and are just here to stir up trouble (as you pretty much said in your first post).


No need for this


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> I wish people would get over this "like driving a car" analogy. You can put a ten year old behind the wheel and within a matter of minutes they could keep it between the lines.
> 
> There is a lot more going on than just steering the dot or pin. If it was that simple, everyone would be shooting 60X games every time.


Heck, this thread started out with cooking turkeys and yer complaining about a different analogy? I like to stick my turkey/prime roast in my big green egg (draw), set the target temp for cooking and final meat temp(hold/aim/whatever you like to call it) and go do stuff until the control thingy calls my phone (shot breaks). 

If someone likes to fidget with everything, that's fine. If someone likes to let go of some of the controls and let things run in the background, that's ok too. 

Confounding "body" with "brain/subconscious" to bust myths or denigrate other's school of thought, well, I'm not sure that's much more than Foghorn Leghorn smackin' Dog's fanny with a board...

BTW, the brain responds very well to concentric circle visual stimuli, not the body. Circles get lined up because we've trained ourselves that that is what we want.

Padgett, only The Rat could handle the high cheese.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

montigre said:


> I realize this is something that you're working on and are still smoothing out the edges, but when you were successful at just aiming, did you shot timing remain about the same or did it widen a little? Just a question asked out of curiosity as I plan to start working on something similar once I finish setting up my outdoor rig.


It isn't really anything new for me, it was just a focus, area of emphasis, goal.... or something similar for the day.

The honest answer is that I don't know. All I know is I was calm and comfortable when they broke and that is always my aim. I understand the importance of timing and rythm but, I've never been one that got alarmed when my shot ran outside of it's "normal" window as long as it isn't a distraction or a degrading sight picture, I let it run.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I had a friend was a big turkey cooker, back in high school.

This thread has everything!


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## nate0404 (Dec 7, 2013)

tmorelli said:


> True.
> 
> I don't talk much about my personal performances (at tournaments or in practice) but this is on topic. I just got back from practice where I shot my personal best ASA 20 target round (by bonus ring count and by score without 14's in play).
> 
> ...


That is a perfect description of how I am shooting when I am shooting my absolute best.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Rick! said:


> Heck, this thread started out with cooking turkeys and yer complaining about a different analogy? I like to stick my turkey/prime roast in my big green egg (draw), set the target temp for cooking and final meat temp(hold/aim/whatever you like to call it) and go do stuff until the control thingy calls my phone (shot breaks).
> 
> If someone likes to fidget with everything, that's fine. If someone likes to let go of some of the controls and let things run in the background, that's ok too.
> 
> ...


LOL. Not really complaining so much as just not agreeing that *we* should *all* be striving to do it that way.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> LOL. Not really complaining so much as just not agreeing that *we* should *all* be striving to do it that way.


I agree. There are examples of success to the extreme of both corners. If I'm arguing anything it would be pick one and stick with it. At least in my experience, performance suffers when we're stuck in the middle....not fully focused or committed to any/either.

I talk about this dynamic with my coach fairly regularly and I think we basically agree.... Some people are wired one way and some the opposite.... One type is simply not able to truly relinquish control to a subconscious shot process. The other is simply not wired to consciously control things well. My guess is that a psychologist could develop a relatively simple test to identify these character traits and that person's preferred (and optimal?) shot style likely corresponds directly. Im guessing this already exists in other forms... Like DISC assessments.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> I agree. There are examples of success to the extreme of both corners. If I'm arguing anything it would be pick one and stick with it. At least in my experience, performance suffers when we're stuck in the middle....not fully focused or committed to any/either.
> 
> I talk about this dynamic with my coach fairly regularly and I think we basically agree.... Some people are wired one way and some the opposite.... One type is simply not able to truly relinquish control to a subconscious shot process. The other is simply not wired to consciously control things well. My guess is that a psychologist could develop a relatively simple test to identify these character traits and that person's preferred (and optimal?) shot style likely corresponds directly. Im guessing this already exists in other forms... Like DISC assessments.


Very well put. 

That is the exact reason some of us push back against the cookie cutter "This is what you need to do" posts.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> Very well put.
> 
> That is the exact reason some of us push back against the cookie cutter "This is what you need to do" posts.


Precision compound shooting is in it's infancy. And really there is almost zero good information out there talking about refining the processes. About all we have is the same old "type a personality...yada, yada, yada." 

I personally have no beef, ok, maybe a little with one, with anyone that has been a source of information in this sport to get us to this point. I have no reason to slap the dog in the butt like foghorn leghorn, OTHER than, I think I've discovered some things that are likely better approaches. That's all. And some of us who have discovered better approaches just get tired of getting slapped up side the head with the same old same old all the time. Absolutely no offense intended. Just being straight up. 

But then, I'm not really qualified to be here. All of this just goes over my head. :wink:


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> True.
> 
> I don't talk much about my personal performances (at tournaments or in practice) but this is on topic. I just got back from practice where I shot my personal best ASA 20 target round (by bonus ring count and by score without 14's in play).
> 
> ...


Having never shot anything but a wrist strap trigger, I've never even pulled a bow back with a hinge, I don't think I could duplicate how your shooting and based on your description I think your absolutely doing it right for you. Hence my question is how much does our personality have to do with how we shoot? I have probably 100,000 shots between my two releases they've been rebuilt and restraped and are as close as probably any two can be. My shot process is relatively simple as I go to anchor my finger's first joint goes on the trigger I bubble the bow as needed and then I'm off find the spot I want to hit as the pin gets to the spot and settles I decide it's time to go and within the next one second my shot will break as I expand my back. When I am on my game I can't imagine how I could do it better of course not every day is the same and that gets truer the older this old man gets. I shot 8 twelves in the 10 target Sims range in the ASA in Columbus Ga and that's only to say that I don't think it matters how you do it, just that you can either do it or you can't.....................Will your style hold up to the pressure of a National event win or a shooter of the year tittle?????
If it won't find a style for YOU that will. This is a great thread makes me more convinced I do it right for me. Thanks, Mark


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

If we can all agree it is differences in in wiring that decides what works then we should put together a thread to correlate what works with wiring type this would stop all the feet digging in folks could say I am not an automaton so that will likely not work for me and I can do the conscious multi skiing fine that might work for me and the combat between types would. End since they are all right just from their point of view given their set of wiring.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Sasquech. That is exactly the type of archery teaching I don't agree with. That is teaching that says; "you are this way so this is how you have to be." In my opinion that is sillyness. That supports a philosophy that indicates that because you (might be) a certain way you have to remain that way. That's just not how I'm wired. I believe just the opposite. To be very candid, I don't like any kind of teaching whatsoever that tends to pigeonhole subjects based on some psychological, wait for it, here it comes..............theory. 

Again, I prefer to think in terms of possibilities rather than impossibilities. :cheers: 

And as always, to each their own.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> Sasquech. That is exactly the type of archery teaching I don't agree with. That is teaching that says; "you are this way so this is how you have to be." In my opinion that is sillyness. That supports a philosophy that indicates that because you (might be) a certain way you have to remain that way. That's just not how I'm wired. I believe just the opposite. To be very candid, I don't like any kind of teaching whatsoever that tends to pigeonhole subjects based on some psychological, wait for it, here it comes..............theory.
> 
> Again, I prefer to think in terms of possibilities rather than impossibilities. :cheers:
> 
> And as always, to each their own.


People want a definitive answer for everything. Most don't want to put in the work to learn how their own body and minds function best. They want answers now. 

You can really see it at the local club with a few guys that show up with a new release every other time you see them. The next new thing could be the cure. Lol


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Sasquech said:


> If we can all agree it is differences in in wiring that decides what works then we should put together a thread to correlate what works with wiring type this would stop all the feet digging in folks could say I am not an automaton so that will likely not work for me and I can do the conscious multi skiing fine that might work for me and the combat between types would. End since they are all right just from their point of view given their set of wiring.





Lazarus said:


> Sasquech. That is exactly the type of archery teaching I don't agree with. That is teaching that says; "you are this way so this is how you have to be." In my opinion that is sillyness. That supports a philosophy that indicates that because you (might be) a certain way you have to remain that way. That's just not how I'm wired. I believe just the opposite. To be very candid, I don't like any kind of teaching whatsoever that tends to pigeonhole subjects based on some psychological, wait for it, here it comes..............theory.
> 
> Again, I prefer to think in terms of possibilities rather than impossibilities. :cheers:
> 
> And as always, to each their own.


One way tries to take advantage of one's current traits, personality, and programming and squeeze out their best.

Another way is to change one's own programming if their not satisfied with their current "best." It can be done and it takes a mountain of dedication and perseverance. It also takes a certain amount of self awareness. if you don't like that term, maybe candid self evaluation could be a suitable substitute. Or honest introspection.

I think tmorelli's suggestion of identifying one's traits is a huge step towards shortening the climb, or becoming aware that one is on the wrong ladder. I shoot next to cub shooters that have imperfect form, mad skills, zero mental baggage and state level championships. Maybe it's as simple as emulating them...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I recently posted that the majority may not always provide the best direction and was met with much resistance. I totally agree with Laz on this being in its infancy. We should be willing to explore and welcome new ideas, yet some will declare this an exact science and condem/attack any idea that challenges their narrow minded views.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

By the way....Roger Willet won the Arizona Cup last week. I believe he's 52 years old. :cheers: 

Some of you will get that. ^ 

To the range............late. See ya's.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Lazarus said:


> By the way....Roger Willet won the Arizona Cup last week. I believe he's 52 years old. :cheers:


Yes, but if I remember correctly, he began shooting when he was a little boy.... I believe that may be an important key to "eliteness"....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SNAPTHIS said:


> Having never shot anything but a wrist strap trigger, I've never even pulled a bow back with a hinge, I don't think I could duplicate how your shooting and based on your description I think your absolutely doing it right for you. Hence my question is how much does our personality have to do with how we shoot? I have probably 100,000 shots between my two releases they've been rebuilt and restraped and are as close as probably any two can be. My shot process is relatively simple as I go to anchor my finger's first joint goes on the trigger I bubble the bow as needed and then I'm off find the spot I want to hit as the pin gets to the spot and settles I decide it's time to go and within the next one second my shot will break as I expand my back. When I am on my game I can't imagine how I could do it better of course not every day is the same and that gets truer the older this old man gets. I shot 8 twelves in the 10 target Sims range in the ASA in Columbus Ga and that's only to say that I don't think it matters how you do it, just that you can either do it or you can't.....................Will your style hold up to the pressure of a National event win or a shooter of the year tittle?????
> If it won't find a style for YOU that will. This is a great thread makes me more convinced I do it right for me. Thanks, Mark


Just so ya' know, I'm primarily a trigger shooter. I was shooting my go-to thumb release yesterday. My biggest wins have come with a Winn Free Flight glove, a Rhino XT and an Exxus.

All that is just to say that the equipment doesn't necessarily define the shot style.... Or more importantly, where your mind is at full draw and when that shot breaks. All of them can be trained into the subconscious. 

I can (and do situationally) run my shot sequence step by step consciously but I don't believe I can ever produce results this way like I can when "get in the zone" and everything is running automatically.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I asked my buddy whom for a long time dominated everything 3D around here - and did well on ASA.

I asked him a few years ago about all this and that, and throught process etc...... he never gets nervous, never appears out of sorts, never has a really bad day shooting, never is hurried, never rushed, never upset.

His response was this "put the pin there, and shoot the *****"

He doesn't think about it, he just does it.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> Yes, but if I remember correctly, he began shooting when he was a little boy.... I believe that may be an important key to "eliteness"....


Yes, while there are exceptions, many of the elite shooters started very young.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

montigre said:


> Yes, but if I remember correctly, he began shooting when he was a little boy.... I believe that may be an important key to "eliteness"....


I'm not sure about that. The point I was trying to make was this; It's long been held that once you hit 40 you couldn't really excel at this game. Well, I believe Mr Willet busted that commonly held belief. Also, last fall at that NFAA Outdoor Target Championship a SR shooter was the High Over All. Just to highlight how prominent that stereotype of older shooters is, the NFAA Magazine printed in their write up on the tournament that the top PMFS shooter "won" the tournament. In reality he was 21 points down on the top shooter. 

The reason I am making an issue of this is because archers just tend to believe what someone told them about shooting. And I just don't get that. And then when a Professional shooter makes a statement like Leviticus did at the ATA show (see my sig) everybody starts making excuses and trying to rationalize their way of thinking! Why? Because some guy that won a tournament once said so, it's been propagandized into their brain, and they don't bother to investigate the real truth. Cbrunson really hit on it above, there's a lot of archers that just want the easy fix, they don't want to enjoy the discovery of just what they're capable of. 

Off my box now.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

The other constraint is the mysticism. I think many believe that they need to just shoot thousands of shots until the shot process just flows and they don’t need to think about it. While that is kinda true, it is not inclusive of the attention to detail that can be beneficial when the system breaks down, or isn’t functioning correctly. The copy and paste response is that he or she was just having an “off day”.

We have probably all experienced the competition day break down. A couple bad misses and then you start to try and think about what is happening and it gets even worse. It becomes easy at that point to try and believe that just forgetting about it is the thing to do. Worst still, when you know you’re out and just relax and shoot, you are often rewarded with good shooting for the rest of the game. What that teaches you to do is stress out until you miss too many, then relax and shoot well.

What I’ve been trying to work on, is performing well under stress. Attention to detail has been the difference for me. Watching the dot sit there before executing the release, focusing on a smooth release, and leaving the shot knowing exactly where the arrow went. I can tell you what I did wrong every time I miss.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> People want a definitive answer for everything. Most don't want to put in the work to learn how their own body and minds function best. They want answers now.
> 
> You can really see it at the local club with a few guys that show up with a new release every other time you see them. The next new thing could be the cure. Lol


I believe this is true. The definitive answer comes in steps. Learn #1 in order to move to #2 then #3 and so on. Along the way one makes modifications and these may change as time goes by. Still, one of so-so level may make a huge leap along the way.





Garceau said:


> I asked my buddy whom for a long time dominated everything 3D around here - and did well on ASA.
> 
> I asked him a few years ago about all this and that, and throught process etc...... he never gets nervous, never appears out of sorts, never has a really bad day shooting, never is hurried, never rushed, never upset.
> 
> ...


Again, another close to my "Haul back and shoot."


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Jordan Spieth just won the Masters (at 21yrs). That's the advantage these young golfers have. They haven't been around long enough to LEARN to fear the unknown/bad.

Make the correlation.

I make a lot of correlations (being a former PGA Teaching Professional) between golf and archery. I see people in both sports who get in their own way - by over-thinking every detail....to their own detriment. The best golfers (and archers) I know play (shoot) without a care. They don't let the fear of the outcome get in the way of the process. They just --- "do".


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Just so ya' know, I'm primarily a trigger shooter. I was shooting my go-to thumb release yesterday. My biggest wins have come with a Winn Free Flight glove, a Rhino XT and an Exxus.
> 
> All that is just to say that the equipment doesn't necessarily define the shot style.... Or more importantly, where your mind is at full draw and when that shot breaks. All of them can be trained into the subconscious.
> 
> I can (and do situationally) run my shot sequence step by step consciously but I don't believe I can ever produce results this way like I can when "get in the zone" and everything is running automatically.


I've been in that zone and when your there it's scary because my focus is so good you could yell in my ear at full draw and I would not hear you and when the tournament is over it's like you wake up.Mark


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> Ok, first try, I was able to pat my head rub my belly, hop on non dominant foot, and recite my ABCs
> I guess that's where I got my opinions on the matter of doing only one thing at a time.
> Oddly enough I did a similar exercise when developing my cruise control technique.
> I can focus on my aiming, count in prime numbers, and run my engine (or let it run itself) at the same time.


Now that would be worth a video


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Like Mahly, I'm also a natural multi-tasker. May come from years of playing a cathedral-style organ (all 4 extremities doing something different in unison) or from a couple of decades in critical care nursing--who knows. May just be my natural wiring. Even when in school, I had to study and write my papers with the radio or television on, otherwise, the session was a futile effort....If I had to think and do just one thing at a time, I would probably fall asleep. 

So, while shooting, I have to do something to keep my mind occupied while I focus on the spot I wish to hit. Sometimes, when the stars and planets are all aligned, this works beautifully, and I flow in the zone with my mind playing a chess game or singing a favorite song. 

However, there are still times when the background gets in the way--inconsiderate shooting partners, a screaming child on course; usually something out of the ordinary that draws my attention away from the chess game and my shot suffers. I've spent part of the winter working through these types of distractions and will learn if the work has paid off once I shoot my first field event this season or if I have to modify further.


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## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)

Lots of good stuff going on here thanks guys. 4 pages and nobody has gotten butt-hurt or a "time out" yet. This could be some kind of IA record! 

To me it seems like there are two basic schools of thought. 1 Be OK with controlling the shot process start to finish. 2 rely on muscle memory and confidence in the repetition of your shot (subconscious...eek...I said it, Laz I'm sorry) to end successfully. 

Either way a great discussion with lots of good info and different ideas. Why can't all the threads in this area progress so civilly?


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## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)

This will always be one of those "chicken or the egg" kind of things, but I do enjoy trying new things and experimenting. That's the reason this thread is here. Im just trying to find that damn chicken....or whoever layed the egg he came from. I may not know his origin I do know who can make him taste delicious on a Weber grill :darkbeer:

Sorry, I really like cooking....


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## scootershooter1 (May 6, 2013)

....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

scootershooter1 said:


> This will always be one of those "chicken or the egg" kind of things, but I do enjoy trying new things and experimenting. That's the reason this thread is here. Im just trying to find that damn chicken....or whoever layed the egg he came from. I may not know his origin I do know who can make him taste delicious on a Weber grill :darkbeer:
> 
> Sorry, I really like cooking....


I thought it was a her, a hen


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In the end I think it may come down to paying your dues, what I mean is that in the beginning most all shooters have a desire to hit perfectly but they have so many little form and mental issues that they simply end up controlling things that they shouldn't. For these shooters which again is almost everyone by listening and accepting the fact that you need to let go of everything and just let it happen is how you shed all the bad garbage in your head and become a solid and relaxed shooter. Then once you have paid those dues and you are now on top of things you can then begin to allow certain things back into your shooting that can really help you be a very competitive shooter.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I was working with my buddy Derek who is a 15 year old indoor shooter only, he has a awesome bow a procomp xl and shoots a hinge. Right now he is right on the verge of becoming a 300 5-spot shooter all the time with right about 50x totals to give you a idea of where he is at. 

Well about 2 months ago he was sending a few to many arrows into the blue and I said " Hey, you want to do some rhythm shooting?". He said sure and I explained it to him and the look on his face told me that the amount of control that he had to let go of to do the rhythm shooting session was making him uncomfortable to say the least. 

So here is Rhythm Shooting:

1. Put up a 5-spot target new or used because it isn't a scoring round

2. Let go mentally of being perfect, this drill is not about perfection. It is about smooth rhythm and letting go of the control that you think you need but don't.

3. Now what you are going to do is get it in your head that you are going to come to anchor and as you pin is coming to the x when it gets about 3 inches away you simply start your smooth firing engine and run it as the pin is approaching and then settling on the x and then the pin begins floating on the x. 

4. Arrow gone. 

5. Load another arrow and repeat.

Now in the beginning you might not see the beauty of this drill but you have got to do it and experience what it has to offer because what it is going to do is bring to the surface all of the mental issues that you are putting into your shot before you even begin the shot. This drill totally makes them clear to the shooter for the first time and I guarantee you that there is more than one little mental thing going on in your shot sequence as you anchor and settle in on the x and then begin your firing effort and this drill totally discloses them.

So your first day doing this session is more of a shock to your system thing and so very important but the second and third day that you do this little drill is where you begin learning the really valuable stuff, why? Because I like to do this little session as a warm up session because it gives me the right to miss the x and not be so freaking irritated if I am missing a few, when doing this drill you are freaking starting your firing engine 3 inches before you even get to the x so sometimes your fire before you even get there and it is the drills fault not yours and sometimes it fires just as you get there during the settling in phase and you slightly miss and again it is the drills fault not yours. 

What this is doing is allowing you to do some sweet self reflection to that transition phase of coming to anchor and settling into the x and what you are actually going to allow to happen in that smooth transition to begin your firing engine. like i said right now you may have 2 or 3 things going on that you aren't even aware of that are messing with your float pattern and adding to the stress of your shot and this rhythm session again brings them to the surface.

Derek took to the rhythm shooting really well and the next day actually had the best indoor shooting session he had ever had staying in the white and hitting more x's than he had ever hit in one session and most of them were inside out x's, I warned him that this is only a drill and not what you do during competition and it is only to smooth out your execution and teach you some lessons about that transition phase. 

Me personally I have been doing this little rhythm shooting drill from time to time for about 2 years and it is so relaxing and at times has produced some of the best shooting I have ever experienced because I do get into a rhythm and the shots just happen with no stress and I rattle off a hundred or so x's in a row without missing and when i do miss because it fired a inch before I got to the x I am ok with that and just mentally let it go. 

Right now I have spent these two years working on my transition from coming to anchor and settling in on the x or 12 ring and then beginning my firing engine and I can't tell you how important this drill has been, there is such a fine line between being to focused and controlled and totally care free.


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## trumankayak (Dec 28, 2011)

Padgett said:


> In the end I think it may come down to paying your dues, what I mean is that in the beginning most all shooters have a desire to hit perfectly but they have so many little form and mental issues that they simply end up controlling things that they shouldn't. For these shooters which again is almost everyone by listening and accepting the fact that you need to let go of everything and just let it happen is how you shed all the bad garbage in your head and become a solid and relaxed shooter. Then once you have paid those dues and you are now on top of things you can then begin to allow certain things back into your shooting that can really help you be a very competitive shooter.


^^^^^money^^^^^


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Padgett said:


> In the end I think it may come down to paying your dues, what I mean is that in the beginning most all shooters have a desire to hit perfectly but they have so many little form and mental issues that they simply end up controlling things that they shouldn't. For these shooters which again is almost everyone by listening and accepting the fact that you need to let go of everything and just let it happen is how you shed all the bad garbage in your head and become a solid and relaxed shooter. Then once you have paid those dues and you are now on top of things you can then begin to allow certain things back into your shooting that can really help you be a very competitive shooter.


If by garbage you mean random thoughts or questioning something, I’d say yes. If you are talking about consciously making adjustments to improve your hold and then consciously starting your release execution, then I’d have to disagree. At least when you use words like “the *fact* that *you* need to let go of *everything*”


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cbrunson, even though I am a guy that has progressed to shooting 300 26x vegas rounds most of the time give or take and to do so I have a certain level of focus and I have many little things that I do within my shot to shoot at that level. I am not just relaxing and floating and just letting things happen, but I am not satisfied at being at this level and I want to progress to the next level and one way that I believe any shooter at any level can help themselves is by stripping down and not doing all those little things.

That is what the rhythm shooting does, it strips all the wants and desires to do the things that make us 300 26x vegas shooters and function without them for a short shooting session. What I like about it is that it allows me to pick and choose which little things to add back to the shot and work on one at a time and make a decision to keep it or get rid of it. When you have 3 to 5 little quirks about your shot routine that are just grandfathered into the shot that have just always been there do you really know if they are helping the cause or are some of your other quirks having to fight with it to cancel the poor effects that it has. 

For me I have gotten rid of some of my quirks that I thought that I liked in my routine and have found that there are a couple that when I do them I transform into a really solid shooter so they have proven to be invaluable. That is what rhythm shooting does for me.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of my biggest issues is time, Right now in the spring with my little girls playing sports and tutoring after school to make some extra money when I do get time to shoot I am going straight to my 3d practice scoring rings and I vision making perfect executions with my competition methods to use to win on the weekends. i am only doing that one thing and making sure my bow is freaking dead on.

For me starting in september once 3d season is over that is when I can put together 4 to 5 days in a row of indoor shooting for 1.5 to 2 hours a day all the way to late feburary and this is when I can find the time to do this kind of training right next to days when I shoot scoring rounds and next to other types of training days. During these months the high volume of shots allows a variety of things to be explored perfected and tweaked and then once my new 3d season starts I can enjoy the benefits.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Padgett said:


> even though I am a guy that has progressed to shooting 300 26x vegas rounds most of the time


Since that was my typical shooting score give or take an X or two during leagues this last winter (including a few 299-27X games) I can honestly say that I know why I missed when I missed. It wasn't because my pesonal zen, or mojo was off. Or that I tensed up on those shots and lost control. Every single one of them was either because I didn't stay focused and let something go, or I just didn't let it settle before executing the shot. 

That doesn't take anything from you and your hopes to improve by just letting things happen. It only serves to contradict your generalization. Everyone is at different levels in this, and at certain levels, I believe you really need to see and know what is going on during the shot process to move forward. Telling *everyone* that they need to "just let go and shoot", is going to mean something completely different to a 45-50X shooter, than it will a 58-60X shooter.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You are dang right, and what you said is what makes talking about these subjects really hard when you have some guys at a high level and some guys just starting out with a hinge and some guys are still punching a index finger release and are just now thinking of making a effort to become a hinge or thumb trigger shooter. 

I thought I tried to kind of touch base on both the entry level shooter with my rhythm shooting session explanation, if I didn't then I am sorry. When my buddy Derrick was doing it I was doing it with him and we are on totally different levels of shooting, for him he got to feel freedom from his pursuit to hit the x and just shoot a smooth shot for the first time in his life. For me I simply shut off my transition phase that I normally use to settle in on the x and then smoke the center of the x and just execute a really smooth shot.

It really is a mind opening drill and I hope you try it.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Well for what it's worth, I have. That's how I used to practice. I'd set up a single Vegas face and punch the centers out of the spots for 3-4 hours. I never counted Xs or even missed tens. I remember several times thinking I easily shot a 300 game or two in the middle of a practice session. 

Then I'd go to an area tournament and not know how to shoot. My dot would be all over the place and I had no idea what to do to fix it. 

Now I work on fixing it every shot in practice.

I totally get your point. Myself and a few of the the guys I shoot with have talked about it several times. It would be really cool if we could take our practice shooting to the tournament. Hell, we could easily finish in the top five in the amateur class at Vegas. I could have won it several times with my league scores. But I know that means nothing unless you can put it on a score card.

I want my practice to prepare me for the big day, not just for shooting pleasure. I'm not going to call myself a high level shooter with 60X practice scores, 57X league average, and 50X competition scores. I'll consider myself high level when I clean Vegas in Vegas, not in the back yard. Now I know that has raised some hairs in here before and I get it. Not everyone wants to be a competition shooter, and everyone that can keep it in the white wants to consider themselves a high level shooter. But let's be real, score means everything. The high score wins. If you want to win, practice like you want to win.

Just my humble opinion of course. :becky:


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> Well for what it's worth, I have. That's how I used to practice. I'd set up a single Vegas face and punch the centers out of the spots for 3-4 hours. I never counted Xs or even missed tens. I remember several times thinking I easily shot a 300 game or two in the middle of a practice session.
> 
> Then I'd go to an area tournament and not know how to shoot. My dot would be all over the place and I had no idea what to do to fix it.


Kind of off topic but maybe not. 

I believe one of the *very worst* practice mistakes people make is shooting dirty targets. It creates an environment that you rarely, if ever, see in competition. As well as gives you a false sense of security of just how well you are shooting. Then when you get in scoring mode...automatic freak out.

We've all done it. I've done it. Horrible practice. .02


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> Kind of off topic but maybe not.
> 
> I believe one of the *very worst* practice mistakes people make is shooting dirty targets. It creates an environment that you rarely, if ever, see in competition. As well as gives you a false sense of security of just how well you are shooting. Then when you get in scoring mode...automatic freak out.
> 
> We've all done it. I've done it. Horrible practice. .02


I can see this... Still, shooting a "shot up" target there's no fear of messing up so you do shoot better, saying "Hey, you can do it." The hard part is getting past freaking out in competition. I know my first few Indoors had me praying my first shot was good. The first one good made the next come easier. 
And then you're playing around and shoot a outstanding shot, clean target, and get it in your head the next shot won't be near as good. I was practicing with Bill P. and shot this and quit. If it had been off a bit it wouldn't have bothered me.....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

cbrunson, i absolutely loved your last post.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> Well for what it's worth, I have. That's how I used to practice. I'd set up a single Vegas face and punch the centers out of the spots for 3-4 hours. I never counted Xs or even missed tens. I remember several times thinking I easily shot a 300 game or two in the middle of a practice session.
> 
> Then I'd go to an area tournament and not know how to shoot. My dot would be all over the place and I had no idea what to do to fix it.
> 
> ...


One of the big traps people fall in, placing and winning at lower levels of competition.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> One of the big traps people fall in, placing and winning at lower levels of competition.


I agree with this. That is why I personally do not consider anything below a sectionals-level tournament a "true" competition--everything else is a form of practice.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The key to a national level tournament is actually attending enough of them so that you feel at home there no different than a league night shoot. For me when I first went to a asa shoot with 1500 shooters I was shaking so freaking bad on the practice bags I about crapped my pants but 4 seasons later when I show up I have a routine that I follow and I actually feel at home at them but I have been to over 20 of them now. Indoor is no different, if you can afford to attend all of the big ones for a few years they will become a normal feel.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I second that shooting Nats Vegas and Lancaster will do more for blowing out the nerves expect no better than your average anything above that is gravy


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

It doesn't have to be a National or the like to rattle your brain. Going from the local Indoor range or club 3D to a State sanctioned level can give you a case of the nerves.... Still, it's state of the mind thing. Got your head screwed on and you handled quite a bit.

And caught in a "trap" is not just the jitters. You get used placing and winning and level out. You don't practice like you should or don't try other things to improve yourself or your shooting.... You then shoot a sanctioned event or even a higher level event and get your butt kicked big time.


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