# Pro Comp Elite tuning problems...



## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi

I am having problems with getting rid of a high nock tear / low bare shaft. Nothing I do seems to make much (if any) difference. Through paper at 6 yards the tear is about 1.25". Shooting bare shaft at 20y the bare shaft is about 4" low. 

My form is consistent enough to get bare shafts within 5" (of each other, not the fletched arrows) at 50m.

My set up is:
- 2013 Pro Comp Elite with spirals - supposed to be "28 inch", but they run 3/8" long (when BH and ATA is to spec), so the bow is "short strung" to 27 7/8) 
- 56.5#, holding weight 23#
- shooting 28" (carbon length) Pro Tour 420s with 120gr tungsten points, Beiter Hunter pin nocks 19/2 (nock fit seems OK)
- bottom cam draw stop in hole #3

- bottom of arrow shaft about 1mm above bottom of Berger hole
- nocking point is square (so cannot make it lower or raise rest without going below square)

I have tried:
- untwisting control cable up to 2 turns: no difference
- twisting up bottom of bus cable up to 2 turns: seems very slightly better with 2 turns in bus cable, but that makes the bow feel a bit "harsh", and there is also zero valley (I like the spiral for its small valley but this way it is just too jumpy).
- moving rest down
- moving rest up (so going below square, obviously makes it a tiny bit better but to get rid of tear I would end up 1/8" below square)
- 1 full turn on top limb
- 1 full turn on bottom limb
- poundage up a turn (maybe 2 lbs)

What do I do? Different cams and strings so I don't have to short string? (expensive so don't really want to go there).

Paper tuning is meant to be a starting point but if I can't get bullet holes (or close to it) then how can I progress to finer tuning at all? Or do I just ignore this and start with "creep tuning", then going on to long distance group tuning?

I have read the "Kitchen Sink" stuff (and lots of other posts on here about bare shaft and other tuning) and am trying to follow that but not being able to affect my paper tears/"bare shaft low" is becoming frustrating...


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

You can try setting the nocking point 1/16"-1/8" high in an effort to level out the nock travel (many cams have a tendency to cause downward nock travel), so setting the nocking point a little high will provide the arrows with some directional stability.

If that does not work, try putting a half or full turn on your limbs.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks - I have tried both (moving np and turning limbs in and out up to 1 full turn) with no significant effect.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

I get the paper tear down to 7/8". Bareshaft at 15y gives this:









Despite the picture angle, the fletched are actually straight (horizontal) so the bareshafts are a bit nock high. The nock was taken off by one of the bare shafts.


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

I had this on my AE , didn't pay much attn. to paper , just groups , I had my bow set like we have all done , credit card thickness slow on the bottom cam , I figured the top cam was taking up string a little faster than it should so I untwisted the top cam 1/2 twist and fixed all my probs , just a thought but that's what fixed mine


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

ia bhtr said:


> I had this on my AE , didn't pay much attn. to paper , just groups , I had my bow set like we have all done , credit card thickness slow on the bottom cam , I figured the top cam was taking up string a little faster than it should so I untwisted the top cam 1/2 twist and fixed all my probs , just a thought but that's what fixed mine


Thanks - what did you untwist? one of the cables or the string?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Are you using a blade rest? And if so, what thickness?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Also, does your top cam hit before your bottom?


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## ia bhtr (May 22, 2002)

fanio said:


> Thanks - what did you untwist? one of the cables or the string?


cable that attaches to the top cam


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi. I am using a trophy taker 2 with .010 blade. Top cam hits about 1/16th before bottom. 
I have tried pretty much everything now (including some tips from nuts&bolts by pm) and nothing I do seems to make much (if any) difference. Best I can get is about 1" nock high and 3/4" nock right. Like this (bow square should be vertical but phone rotated the pic anticlockwise)








I am now going to try changing cams from 4.0 to 3.5 to see if the short stringing may be to blame for the "untunability"...


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Oops. The top photo is right. The other two are meant to be deleted but the phone won't let me.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Try either a .008 blade or taking the .010 blade and angling it flatter some to soften the effect of the blade some. This might help on the high tear. It could be that the blade is reacting too stiff and kicking the back of the arrow up instead of bending out of the way.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

This may sound silly but Are you getting vane clearance from the rest? and are you using the correct spine arrow the 420's might be a little stiff even with 120 gr points. When I get lost trouble shooting things I always go back to things I may take for granted.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

rohpenguins said:


> This may sound silly but Are you getting vane clearance from the rest? and are you using the correct spine arrow the 420's might be a little stiff even with 120 gr points. When I get lost trouble shooting things I always go back to things I may take for granted.


The pro comps tune the next size stiffer, so he should be good with spine.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

May need to play with the spring tension on your rest if you can. I'd first worry about the lateral nock tear and take it out with yoke tuning then see where the high tear is. Sometimes getting rid of lateral tears helps vertical tears some. To remove a nock right tear, add a twists to the right yoke leg and take them out of the left. You may only need half a twist in and out of each one. I like to go by half twist increments, unless the tear is huge, and once I think I have it, I go one half twist further to see if the tear starts going the other way. When I say tear, I mean bareshaft angle at 20 yards. I don't actually mess with paper but it tells you the same thing.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks. This was the best I could get with yoke tuning. Tried everything from 2 turns into left side yoke leg to 3 turn into right side yoke (and matching it with same number of turns on the opposite died each time) with virtually no effect on left/right tear (or left/right bare shafts up to 15 y). Moving the rest in and out also made little difference. And I'm not torque-ing the bow or doing weird stuff with my hand either. 

The only thing I haven't done is shimming the cams over (I am guessing a .020 shim to the left of the cam might help?) if that doesn't work, I'm planning to take it all apart and starting over with the bow.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

fanio said:


> Thanks. This was the best I could get with yoke tuning. Tried everything from 2 turns into left side yoke leg to 3 turn into right side yoke (and matching it with same number of turns on the opposite died each time) with virtually no effect on left/right tear (or left/right bare shafts up to 15 y). Moving the rest in and out also made little difference. And I'm not torque-ing the bow or doing weird stuff with my hand either.
> 
> The only thing I haven't done is shimming the cams over (I am guessing a .020 shim to the left of the cam might help?) if that doesn't work, I'm planning to take it all apart and starting over with the bow.


How do you know you're not torqueing it? Hand torque isn't something that you can see most of the time. If you change your grip pressure, I bet you'll see changes in your POI at distance. The best way to tell if you're torqueing the grip is to shoot bareshafts. If you can consistently shoot them with fletched and in a nice straight entrance, then you're grip is good. If you can't you may need to play with your grip a little to get that perfect bareshaft flight.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

fanio, did you ever get this issue resolved? Everything you posted is EXACTLY what my PCE is doing. Mine is a GTX cam and 26.5 draw. I have lost a huge part of my mind trying to tune this sucker. I even took the limbs off and "shuffled" them to see if that would help. I shimmed the cams and got rid of the right tear... but the high one won't go away!

I had hand surgery a few months ago and thought that was the problem. I have been struggling with field all spring. 2 weeks ago I switched back to my 1998 Darton Maverick split limb to see if the issues were me or the bow. BAM! went from 532 field with PCE to 548 (543ish is my normal) with my Maverick. So now I know it isn't me. 

Please let me know what has worked for you. You can PM me here or post on this thread. 

Thank you,

Chris


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Araz, what is your cam timing like on the PCE?


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

I have never seen such a long tear :mg: It looks like its either the shooting form or arrow comes in contact with the rest.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

RCR III I haven't messed with the cam timing on my PCE. That is the only thing left to try. Would you recommend the top cam hit first or second. I have always had the top cam hit first on most bows with dual cams. I was also thinking of creep tuning it to see if I could get it to move.

Pysiek, I get the same paper tear on my PCE. I have powdered my arrow and rest to see if there is contact. Zero, nada, nothing. I even switched to a very small blade. I will still mess with my blade angle, but it's pretty shallow now. 

Thank you for the replies. I know I can tune this thing... I just have to keep at it.


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## icemanls2 (Mar 15, 2007)

If your getting a high tear with vanes, and a low tear with bare shafts and they are the same spine shafts, Look at your blade/vane clearance. At that range whether you have vanes or bare shafts should be tear high or tear low but not both (if i'm reading your post correctly).


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## Outsider (Aug 16, 2011)

If I were you I will start from beginning:
-check cam alignment 
-check tiller
-check cam timing
-adjust the bow to your poundage and check tiller again
-mount arrow rest so the arrow intersects the Berger hole or if your already installed the D-Loop then mount your rest so the arrow is perpendicular to the D-Loop
-level your arrow to your bow
Now I will perform powder test to ensure you are not getting any vane contact with the arrow rest
If everything is good perform paper tuning test (4-7 yards)
-If the tear is high lower your nock height. To do this raise your arrow rest or lower D-loop
-If the tear is low raise your nock height. To do this lower your arrow rest or raise your D-loop
-If the tear is right move your rest away from the riser
-If the tear is left move your rest towards the riser
This is just to make sure the arrow flight is good. Next I always perform bareshaft and yokr tuning.
Also do not put excessive face pressure on the string.


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## xkenny (Jan 24, 2005)

What is the conclusion to this dilemma? My PCE is doing the exact same thing, what has been done to correct this? Please keep this thread going until this problem is resolved.


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## crazyhoyt (May 30, 2011)

Take a half twist out of your top control cable, most of my Hoyt's like top cam advanced closer to a 1/4" rather than a credit card width . Makes for a nice solid wall also, and just feels comfortable


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## crazyhoyt (May 30, 2011)

crazyhoyt said:


> Take a half twist out of your top control cable, most of my Hoyt's like top cam advanced closer to a 1/4" rather than a credit card width . Makes for a nice solid wall also, and just feels comfortable


I had a Pro comp an it tuned up great doing this, my Alpha Burner also.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

I have not yet been able to fix this, and it's driving me crazy. I have tried the 420 pro tours, as well as 450 and 500 spine carbon ones. No difference - bare shaft is about 6-8" left of fletched at 20y (with 2 bare shafts usually within about 1/2-1" from each other). Nothing I do to the yokes or control cable has made a difference (though I have not tried advancing the top cam quite so much - will try that tomorrow). I am very close to giving up on the PCE.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fanio said:


> I have not yet been able to fix this, and it's driving me crazy. I have tried the 420 pro tours, as well as 450 and 500 spine carbon ones. No difference - bare shaft is about 6-8" left of fletched at 20y (with 2 bare shafts usually within about 1/2-1" from each other). Nothing I do to the yokes or control cable has made a difference (though I have not tried advancing the top cam quite so much - will try that tomorrow). I am very close to giving up on the PCE.


Fanio.

1) set blade to 30 degrees above horizontal
2) use 0.008 blade
3) switch to a GRIV torqueless loop and use Beiter 19/2 asymmetric nocks

I had the same issues, until I did ALL three things. The GRIV torqueless loop adds SIGNIFICANT down pressure.





Set the STARTING height of the blade arrow rest with the bow, sitting sideways on your table.
MOVE blade rest UP until the blade BARELY touches the arrow, with ZERO bending in the blade.

ARROW should be perfectly parallel to the target sight arm.

With the 0.008 blade,
you want the arrow to SAG significantly.



These are Carbon Express Nano XR 410s with 120 grain tool steel points.

SIGNIFICANT sag, with the bow at rest, IS IMPORTANT.

With THIS procedure,
setup took all of 5 minutes.

I tuned the VERTICAL position of the arrow rest,
only 0.004-inches. 



Each click on the micro adjust knob = 0.002-inches.

So, you WANT a LOT of sag on the blade,
and you want to start with the 0.008 blade.

TOO stiff of a blade,
TOO steep of a blade angle
is the ROOT CAUSE for your troubles.



THIS helps TREMENDOUSLY.

Must set the top tied nocking point at FULL DRAW.

When at full draw, adjust the TOP tied nocking point for 1 mm of clearance
on TOP of the Beiter nock, the asymmetric ones.

With the bow at rest,
on my DST 40,
the gap between bottom and top tied nocking point,
is nearly DOUBLE the height of the Beiter nock.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

5 minutes of tuning.

Results.



With the BLADE sagging and drooping THIS much.




I used to have the exact same problem you do...

I tried all kinds of creep tuning, and tiller tuning
and the thinnest blades, and the medium blade
and backer blades, and you name it.

ONLY thing that works, to kill the TAIL high arrow flight...

was the flat blade angle, the 30 degrees,
and the TORQUELESS loop,
and the Beiter Asymmetric nocks.

When you are OUTSIDE the HEIGHT range for tuning on a BLADE arrow rest,
the blade acts like a spring board at the swimming pool
and causes a sEVERE rebound reaction.


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

question for nuts and bolts on this subject, the current cams [ spiral x and gtx ] were both designed for hoyt bows that had a much higher grip and berger hole in comparison to the PCE and PCEXL do you think this contributes to the tuning issue's with these bows ? I own both bows and wish I could trade them for a Vantage elite plus. AS a side note my videos of these bows have the strangest cam and string movements ive ever caught on video, some of what i'm seeing I can't even believe, and I've never seen this on my older hoyts or any other bow that i've videod. Mark


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

fanio said:


> Hi
> 
> I am having problems with getting rid of a high nock tear / low bare shaft. Nothing I do seems to make much (if any) difference. Through paper at 6 yards the tear is about 1.25". Shooting bare shaft at 20y the bare shaft is about 4" low.
> 
> ...


I'd double check your cable lengths. 23 lbs holding weight on a 56.5 draw weight is a 60% let off and little to no valley I'd bet. That could be a hand full to shoot unless you are used to it.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

fanio said:


> I have not yet been able to fix this, and it's driving me crazy. I have tried the 420 pro tours, as well as 450 and 500 spine carbon ones. No difference - bare shaft is about 6-8" left of fletched at 20y (with 2 bare shafts usually within about 1/2-1" from each other). Nothing I do to the yokes or control cable has made a difference (though I have not tried advancing the top cam quite so much - will try that tomorrow). I am very close to giving up on the PCE.


fanio, I got my PCE to shoot bullet holes by untwisting my top cam 5 turns. The top stop hits and the bottom one is 5/8" to 3/4" before the bottom one hits. It feels aweful. But it shoots great. I am not impressed with my PCE. Feels great, looks great, but if it's going to be this fussy to set up, I'm afraid it will have to go!

I plan on sending my bow back to Hoyt. It is not right!


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

You're getting a false nock high tear because your blade is too stiff, or your nock height isnt high enough. Spirals (and hoyt cams for that matter) have downward nock travel engineered into them as to keep the arrow with pressure on the rest throughout the cycle of the shot. You need to go through a combo of lowering the nock height and softening the blade. I have 625 grain XXX's with an .008 blade laid at 28 degrees, with an .010 backer blade cut in half.


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## Tiroarco (Nov 6, 2012)

jmann28 said:


> You're getting a false nock high tear because your blade is too stiff, or your nock height isnt high enough. Spirals (and hoyt cams for that matter) have downward nock travel engineered into them as to keep the arrow with pressure on the rest throughout the cycle of the shot. You need to go through a combo of lowering the nock height and softening the blade. I have 625 grain XXX's with an .008 blade laid at 28 degrees, with an .010 backer blade cut in half.





fanio said:


> I have not yet been able to fix this, and it's driving me crazy. I have tried the 420 pro tours, as well as 450 and 500 spine carbon ones. No difference - bare shaft is about 6-8" left of fletched at 20y (with 2 bare shafts usually within about 1/2-1" from each other). Nothing I do to the yokes or control cable has made a difference (though I have not tried advancing the top cam quite so much - will try that tomorrow). I am very close to giving up on the PCE.


To me the PCE and the PCEXL are a step back from the VE+.
I (like you) got so frustrated that I sold it and never looked back. I know plenty people that are well versed With Hoyt and tuning them and the general consensus was that there is no advantage over the VE+. 
I like my new bows.....way less time tuning and more shooting. I realize it's all subjective, I just found that you had to cross your finger, hold your tongue right and hope to God nothing went out of tune. 
Too many variables for my liking.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

SNAPTHIS said:


> question for nuts and bolts on this subject, the current cams [ spiral x and gtx ] were both designed for hoyt bows that had a much higher grip and berger hole in comparison to the PCE and PCEXL do you think this contributes to the tuning issue's with these bows ? I own both bows and wish I could trade them for a Vantage elite plus. AS a side note my videos of these bows have the strangest cam and string movements ive ever caught on video, some of what i'm seeing I can't even believe, and I've never seen this on my older hoyts or any other bow that i've videod. Mark



When the riser designer MOVES the pivot point of the grip more towards the physical center of the riser
this of course, changes the COG...the center of gravity.

So,
this means how you USED to tune your hoyts....
will not work for the NEW pivot point position.

Basically, you are going to have to tiller tune to get the "NEW CORRECT" balance,
for LEVEL nock travel.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

jmann28 said:


> You're getting a false nock high tear because your blade is too stiff, or your nock height isnt high enough. Spirals (and hoyt cams for that matter) have downward nock travel engineered into them as to keep the arrow with pressure on the rest throughout the cycle of the shot. You need to go through a combo of lowering the nock height and softening the blade. I have 625 grain XXX's with an .008 blade laid at 28 degrees, with an .010 backer blade cut in half.


My blade definitely isn't too stiff. I have a 0.010 on a Golden Premier rest with the spring on the rest set as absolute light as I can. My bow also doesn't reach peak weight. 57 lbs is absolute MAX. So tiller tuning isn't really available. I'm positive there is something up with the limbs or limb pockets, or the riser where the limbs attach with this bow. 

FYO, My PCE is 60lb with GTX cams set to 26.5" draw. Carbon Express Nano Pro's 550 (total weight of arrow 335 grains) I have tried Carbon Express CXL's 150's and 250's (old and new style) CX Maxima 150 and 250. All of these arrows will tune and shoot out of all of my bows. 2 Darton Mavericks, Darton 2500, PSE Vandetta XL. 

These bows can't be that fussy to tune and set up. Something is definitely WRONG.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

araz2114 said:


> My blade definitely isn't too stiff. I have a 0.010 on a Golden Premier rest with the spring on the rest set as absolute light as I can. My bow also doesn't reach peak weight. 57 lbs is absolute MAX. So tiller tuning isn't really available. I'm positive there is something up with the limbs or limb pockets, or the riser where the limbs attach with this bow.
> 
> FYO, My PCE is 60lb with GTX cams set to 26.5" draw. Carbon Express Nano Pro's 550 (total weight of arrow 335 grains) I have tried Carbon Express CXL's 150's and 250's (old and new style) CX Maxima 150 and 250. All of these arrows will tune and shoot out of all of my bows. 2 Darton Mavericks, Darton 2500, PSE Vandetta XL.
> 
> These bows can't be that fussy to tune and set up. Something is definitely WRONG.


A .010 blade is too stiff with these bows and a 335 grain arrow. You don't want to listen, that's fine, but nothing is wrong with the bow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jmann28 said:


> A .010 blade is too stiff with these bows and a 335 grain arrow. You don't want to listen, that's fine, but nothing is wrong with the bow.


30 degrees.
Spot Hogg Premier arrow rest
also
lately
DS Advantage Blade arrow rest

Carbon Express Nano XR 410s
120 grain tool steel points.
60 lbs draw weight
28.75-inch draw length

0.008 blade cuz the THINNER blade is MUCH easier to tune,
much MORE forgiving...than the 0.010 blade.

Why 30 degrees,
with the THINNEST possible blade?

To maximize SAG.




I had TAIL high tears...bareshaft diving down WAY low...
when using a d-loop AND a blade arrow rest.

Tried all kinds of tiller tuning
NOTHING worked...

until I tried a TORQUELESS LOOP
which puts NOTICEABLE down pressure on the blade

AND went to the 0.008 BLADE with NO BACKER blade
AND set the blade angle to 30 degrees for SUPER sagginess.

I set arrow to parallel to the target sight, 
with ZERO blade bending (bow is sideways on the floor).

This is HOW I set the initial STARTING arrow rest height, ON THE FLOOR.



So,
no need to set the TORQUELESS LOOP TAIL HIGH.

I just move the arrow rest DOWN LOW enough
so that when the bow is on the FLOOR
the blade tips just kiss the arrow tube,
when the arrow is help parallel to the target sight.

The 30 degree angle
the 0.008 BLADE BENDS down, under the weight of the arrow,
when the bow is upright.

Doing it THIS way,
TORQUELESS LOOP
and Beiter Asymmetric nocks...

took 5 minutes to tune the DS Advantage Blade arrow rest.

NO more tail high bareshaft arrow flight.

MOVED, TUNED the blade arrow rest vertical position,
just 4 THOUSANDTHS of an inch...two CLICKS on the vertical knob.



With just 2 CLICKS of vertical adjust for the blade arrow rest...

got great fletched arrow groups at 20 yards.




CREEP tunes at 20 yards perfectly.



If your 0.010 BLADE will not do this at 20 yards...

1) either it is bow tuning settings (try the 0.008 blade, and set the blade to 30 degrees and set STARTING arrow rest height, while on the FLOOR)

and/or

2) d-loop does not provide enough DOWN PRESSURE (d-loop and blade rest would NOT work, in ANY combo for me...the TORQUELESS loop was the ONLY answer for ME)

and/or

3) it's your form....(MY form would not work with a Blade Arrow REST and a d-loop...the Torqueless loop made setup just 5 minutes...AFTER you figure out the correct length)

IF you do try the Torqueless loop,
ONE more hint.

SET the top tied nocking point on a draw board, to avoid nock pinch.

With my DST 40,
the top tied nocking point has to be TWICE the height of the Beiter asymmetric nock,
from string angle.

If you have 28-inch ATA bow,
or a 30-inch ATA bow,
the EXTREME string angle will have your TOP tied nocking point a LONG ways from the
bottom tied nocking point.


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## Purka (Sep 8, 2004)

fanio, without me going through the whole thread again, did you say to get the tear level the nocking point was low ? If this is the case I have found when the top cam is over rotated this happens so take twists out of the buss and/or put some in the control.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

I put on new strings (from 60x - perfect out of the box, by the way) and the nock height is now acceptable with the arrow. Right tear problem is still the though. Twisting the yokes gets it down to about 5/8" but then there is so much lean at full draw that the cable hits the side of the cable track in the cam at about 3/4 of the way to full draw. 

Grrr.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

fanio said:


> I put on new strings (from 60x - perfect out of the box, by the way) and the nock height is now acceptable with the arrow. Right tear problem is still the though. Twisting the yokes gets it down to about 5/8" but then there is so much lean at full draw that the cable hits the side of the cable track in the cam at about 3/4 of the way to full draw.
> 
> Grrr.


I forget if you are right or left handed.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Right handed. Same right tears (+/- 1") with 2315 (180 and 200gr points), 420 PTs, 450 and 500 C1s.

Bare shafts are about 3-4" left at 20y. 

Nock height is OK now.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Just out of curiosity. Are you shooting off the riser bare or is it wrapped? If it's bare, wrap it with a paper towel just to have something there on it and put your hand into the grip as normal and see what happens. It sounds weird, I know. But I fought right tears and tuning and trying to get everything lined up and worked out, but once I wrapped the grip I've had no more problems. I don't have to have crazy lean or cams hitting way before one another, or my rest moved way left or right. I can line things up down the middle, adjust for the top cam to be straight up and down, top cam just slightly hitting ahead of the bottom(achieved after creep tuning), I can consistently get good reactions from my bow.


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## Zamil_Azam (Sep 16, 2014)

Tag


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

I've got some tape around the grip. Setting it up for indoor now and the bare shaft is only a couple inches left of fletched now. So I'm feeling a bit more hopeful.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Tagged for later...


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