# analyzing float



## mike 66

there are a few ways to get the float smaller.............. first is the form.... then the DL. after you have the PERFECT dl for you , then add weights you have some 4000 post im sure you read some on the subject.. i would recommend adding weights to get it fine tuned... im guessing you have a target bow..so the longer the ft. stick is the less weight you will need..rule of thumb. then you will see a much smaller float. then add the side bar...i would say start with the same amount on the side and work from there, its not uncommon to have 2x the weight on the side.. but no one is built the same... its trial and error to see what works best for you and your bow.the float will remain the same at no matter what yardage you shoot. .....but keep in mind... NO ONE on this earth can hold perfectly still... its NOT gonna happen, pushing of forcing the pin to the x will cause other issues... then after you get form, dl .. you can analyze your shooting on paper with the float, the paper will tell you if you need more weight and WHERE to put them .the mind knows if your gonna shoot or not ...its not gonna care unless you get serious.....so keep notes..shoot every shot like it counts for 50.000 bucks.


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## jim p

Thanks for the tips. I guess that I will have to go and do some reading about stabilizers.


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## nuts&bolts

jim p said:


> I decided that I needed to watch my float to see if I could learn anything.
> 
> So I draw my bow with not intentions of shooting. I keep my thumb on the thumb peg. The first time I draw and sight the pin is moving in an ellipse about 4" wide and 2" high. The second time I draw the pin is moving across the X about 3" in all directions. It moved from left to right it moved from top to right, just all across the X. The pin would not stop and seemed to take maybe 1/3 second to make its move from one change of direction to the next change of direction.
> 
> So next I decide to watch the float with the intention of shooting. The float decreased in size to about 2" in all directions with the pin wanting to drop low. I would push the pin back up into the X.
> 
> So does anyone know how to analyze this float and what can I try to get the float a little smaller.


Video
freeze frame analysis

Video cam on a tripod.
Fire ONE arrow at a SHOULDER height target, so the arrow is DEAD LEVEL, when at full draw

Target distance is not important, could be 2 yards, could be 5 yards.

FIRE one arrow.
Hang up bow
Pull arrow

Back to shooting line (duct tape)
FIRE ONE arrow
Hang up bow
PULL arrow

REPEAT for at least a 10 minute video

So,
the idea is you need a WALL behind you,
for reference purposes.

You want to FREEZE frame, stop the video on the frame JUST BEFORE the arrow fires.

So,
compare this FREEZE FRAME for shot #1, shot #2, shot #3, you get the idea.

So,
I GUARANTEE you will see differences in the release elbow HEIGHT, for each shot.

For the shots where your ELBOW (release elbow) is LOWER than average, the moment before you FIRE the arrow,
you will correlate your FORM to a HIGH miss. Fatigue is setting in....say this is SHOT #2.

So,
where you FOCUS HARDER and "TRY HARDER" on the shot,
then the FREEZE frame for THESE shots,
the TENSION is higher in your forearm,
and you OVER-EMPHASIZE the elbow (release side) to combat the fatigue
so the RELEASE ELBOW ends up HIGHER than usual,
and this will correlate to a LOW miss on your target...say this is SHOT #4. 


So,
if you can rig an OVERHEAD video cam
where the camera lens is pointed STRAIGHT DOWN...

you can also capture the FREEZE frame for say SHOT #12,
where you COLLAPSED, not VERTICALLY, but HORIZONTALLY.

WHAT is a HORIZONTAL collapse of the bow shoulder joint?

Let's say SHOT #1, you shoot in THIS posture.



So,
let's say on Shot #10,
you have this 4" WIDE, 2" HIGH sight float, a SIDEWAYS waggle in your sight picture.

WHAT happened?

Well for SHOT #10,
cuz of that fatigue, you FOLD up like an accordian,
and you LOOK like THIS.



So,
the bow arm SWINGS more clockwise (video cam pointed straight down)
shoulders swing/collapse counter-clock-wise...

(THIS IS EXAGGERATED...of course)

the changes in the SIGHT PIC float
are ALWAYS related to changes in your posture,
your shooting foundation.


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## nuts&bolts

I can go on.

1) shoulders alignment.....change in shoulders alignment in the COMPASS directions...say due north, or you CHANGE and collapse the shoulders to point NORTH EAST
....will result in a sideways increase in FLOAT waggle..(RIGHT handed shooter)

2) a collapse of the LEFT hip joint, where the LEFT hip joint, collapses clockwise, the LEFT hip joint rotates northeast..away from directly above the left ankle joint..a HIP twist (unconscious)
....will result in a sideways miss, usually to the RIGHT...this LOSS of central core tension, will also show up as a SIDEWAYS WAGGLE in your sight pic

3) obviously, a collapsed bow shoulder (bow shoulder pops up) will result in a loss of core tension, and your bow sight pic becomes UNSTABLE in the up-down direction
....drop out the bottom of the spot..the VERTICAL sight pic waggle, mostly dropping low

4) SKY HIGH right armpit syndrome....the RIGHT side collar bone is stuck SKY HIGH, for a right handed shooter....shooter looks like he/she is doing the ONE shoulder joint shoulder shrug
....so the elbow is also trapped SKY HIGH...airing out the right armpit...the SEVERiTY of this problem goes from MILD, to WILDLY sky high...(obviously, shot drops low)

5) then, you have the DROPPED WAY DOWN LOW elbow syndrome..this is just plain FATIGUE
....so, when the elbow (right elbow for right handed shooter)..drops WAY DOWN LOW, you get the HIGH shot...pin will just not stay DOWN
....you combine the TIRED release elbow, dropping WAY DOWN LOW...with the collapsed bow shoulder up SKY HIGH, and combined with the leaning WAY WAY WAY WAY Back...

.....well, you can imagine that the bow sight pic is NO WHERE NEAR steady, in the UP/DOWN position.

So,
since you cannot SEE yourself shoot,
set up a PERMANENT video station, on a tripod
and just FILM yourself
and do a FREEZE frame analysis.






















*So,
this is an example of a FREEZE frame analysis of a video capture...for ONE SHOT.*

So,
study FREEZE frame for EACH and EVERY shot, during that 10 minute VIDEO. That is a LOT of frames to STUDY.

So,
imagine a video that runs CONTINUOUSLY for 10 minutes
and the shooter is only shooting ONE arrow
say 4 yards away,
and the shooter walks back and forth
between the shooting line, and the target.

Therefore,
in 10 minutes of video,
you can FREEZE frame capture LOTS and LOTS of shots.

SEE all the stuff on the wall behind the shooter?

That stuff on the wall behind the shooter,
is your ANALYSIS grid. As long as the shooter takes CARE to stand on the EXACT spot on the shooting line for EACH shot,
you can analyze for CONSISTENCY of release elbow HEIGHT for EACH shot
and compare the shot results, as long as the shooter numbers EACH hole in the target face...shot #1, shot #2, shot #3.

This is RESULTS based coaching analysis.

I cannot see the "FLOAT" of my shooters/students,
I can see how each shot is CONSISTENT or NOT CONSISTENT
and
I can see the SHOT PLACEMENT for each shot, when the holes are nUMBERED in the target.

Drawing your bow with NO intention of shooting,
is not a worthwhile training exercise...

cuz,
when you DO intend to shoot,
you OBVIOUSLY are getting a different sight picture FLOAT pattern,
and for OBVIOUS reasons.

FOOTBALL players "STUDY FILM".

So should compound bow shooters,
the SERIOUS ones.


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## nuts&bolts

ROCK SOLID, 
DEAD still float IS possible,
for a short period of time....maybe 2.5-3 seconds...

IF you have got your draw length MICRO dialed in
IF you have mastered the bow side, versus, release side balance....the bow half of the body PUSHES....the release half of the body PULLS
the HOLDING weight is HEAVY, to FORCE a strong, AGGRESSIVE shot
and you have your center of gravity perfected....

dial in your form
then, work on your shot process, the dynamics of the shot..the bow half of the body follow through reaction...the release hand of the body follow through reaction

then,
LAST of all,
you find YOUR sweet spot for bow stabilizer system FRONT heaviness

then,
you find YOUR sweet spot for SIDE stabilizer system ONE SIDE heaviness...whether you become a member of the BALANCED side stabilizer system school
or whether you become a member of the ONE SIDE HEAVY on purpose, side stabilizer system school.

When you get ALL the puzzle pieces worked out to PERFECTION for YOU...

when you for the FIRST TIME,
have your sight picture ROCK SOLID, DEAD STILL for that 2-3 second window

gotta have an AGGRESSIVE shot process, for this to work.....

YOUR students (I'm speaking to coaches) will have AMAZING results.

Of course,
this is completely dependent on the skill of the shooter/student
and only a FEW will get to the holy grail....
but it IS possible....

just not EASY.

PS,
when you DO find your sweet spot for the FRONT heaviness AND side HEAVINESS...
your bow will feel LIGHT as a feather,
*WHEN at full draw....and for a short while, it FEELS LIKE a GYROSCOPE.*


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## jim p

Thanks for all this information. I don't even have a .5 sec period of zero float. My pin only stops when it changes directions across the X.

I am going to analyze your information about how the release elbow position affects the shot and then use the shot results to help me bring my elbow into the correct position for each shot.

I have been shooting a soft shot. I will start holding a little harder into the wall. I need to do this because I sometimes creep forward. When I notice this I let down.

I will also keep in mind that the bow arm needs to be straight with the shoulder down.

Maybe if I know what to look for when a shot goes wrong, I can correct what I am doing.

Body positioning awareness is not my high point. I take yoga and it is supposed to help with body position awareness. Sometimes while doing yoga in front of mirrors I will be thinking that I am standing with my head straight but when I look into the mirror I am leaning badly.

For the last 3 years I have been spraying arrows 6" wide at 20 yards. Sometimes I would just stand there after the shot and try to picture what was causing these wild shots. I knew that the sight was within 2" of the X when the shot broke. Within the last week I realized that I was tensing my bow hand on some of the shots. I was not grabbing the bow just tensing the hand. So I have started relaxing the bow hand before each shot and my 6" spread has dropped to about 2.5" horizontal spread. This is not too bad because my float is about 2.5" at this time.

I want to continue working on form until I am at least consistent without flyers. At this point maybe I can improve my float by carefully adjusting draw length and stabilizer weight.

I know that I have a long way to go but it sure does feel good not having a 6" wide spread at 20 yards.

Thanks Nuts & Bolts for all the help.


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## josh89

Just wanted to say thank you Nuts&Bolts. Your a wealth of knowledge and you share this freely online for all to read and re-read, if their like me. Truly appreciate your generosity.


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## SNAPTHIS

tag mark trombley


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## nuts&bolts

jim p said:


> Thanks for all this information. I don't even have a .5 sec period of zero float. My pin only stops when it changes directions across the X.
> 
> I am going to analyze your information about how the release elbow position affects the shot and then use the shot results to help me bring my elbow into the correct position for each shot.
> 
> I have been shooting a soft shot. I will start holding a little harder into the wall. I need to do this because I sometimes creep forward. When I notice this I let down.
> 
> I will also keep in mind that the bow arm needs to be straight with the shoulder down.
> 
> Maybe if I know what to look for when a shot goes wrong, I can correct what I am doing.
> 
> Body positioning awareness is not my high point. I take yoga and it is supposed to help with body position awareness. Sometimes while doing yoga in front of mirrors I will be thinking that I am standing with my head straight but when I look into the mirror I am leaning badly.
> 
> For the last 3 years I have been spraying arrows 6" wide at 20 yards. Sometimes I would just stand there after the shot and try to picture what was causing these wild shots. I knew that the sight was within 2" of the X when the shot broke. Within the last week I realized that I was tensing my bow hand on some of the shots. I was not grabbing the bow just tensing the hand. So I have started relaxing the bow hand before each shot and my 6" spread has dropped to about 2.5" horizontal spread. This is not too bad because my float is about 2.5" at this time.
> 
> I want to continue working on form until I am at least consistent without flyers. At this point maybe I can improve my float by carefully adjusting draw length and stabilizer weight.
> 
> I know that I have a long way to go but it sure does feel good not having a 6" wide spread at 20 yards.
> 
> Thanks Nuts & Bolts for all the help.


Welcome.

I offer online coaching,
when you are ready.

Sometimes,
something as SIMPLE as a 1/4-inch draw length change

THAT's RIGHT,
tweaking the draw length IN BETWEEN DL module sizes,
can have a DRAMATIC result.

Bone Stock 29-inch Maitland Zeus.

My 20 yard results. This is an example of a budget, USED target bow.
Micro Elite Limb Driver. Only a front stick. 2 oz of weight. Top cam dialed in to ZERO lean, for STARTERS.
Arrow rest moved sideways so the arrow is pointed DEAD straight ahead...for STARTERS.

60 lb draw weight.

Nothing special. Out of production.
Could probably pick one up used, for $400 or even LESS.



So,
HINT

IGNORE your float.

Just shoot.
Train your mind to IGNORE your FLOAT.
No brain cells were thinking about my FLOAT, when I shot this group.


Sooo,
I fire a bareshaft at 20 yards...to DIAGNOSE my DL, how well the 29-inch DL module FITS ME the shooter.



Now,
this is NOT an ARROW SPINE/SPLINE problem.

NO,
this is NOT a yoke tuning problem. I reserve Yoke TUning for shooting LONG range, like 60 yards.

At 20 yards,
when I just installed a brand new arrow rest,
when I just installed a new sight....

the MOST basic thing to check
is DRAW LENGTH.

So,
WHAT does this mean,
when a RIGHT handed shooter
shoots AVERAGE groups, say 2-inches at 20 yards
and

the bareshaft is OFF COURSE,
NOCK RIGHT
POINT LEFT...

missing 8-9 INCHES to the LEFT?

IT means,
the DRAW LENGTH needs FRANKEN-STEIN work,
the DRAW LENGTH on the bow needs to GROW 1/4-inch....or THEREABOUTS.

So,
what happens when I franken-stein the draw length, about 1/4-inch LONGER,
or thereabouts?

THIS HAPPENS.







Soooo

what was my FLOAT like?

This Maitland Zeus is NOT yoke tuned...NOT YET.
This Maitland Zeus is NOT group tuned..NOT YET.
I am only STARTING to tune the bow..

and do the BASIC DL test,
to see how well the 29-inch DL module WORKS.

So,
IGNORE your float
and work on FORM

and learn how to FRANKEN-stein your bow Draw Length,
in between DL module sizes.

So,
when you are HAPPY with how your arrows are GROUPING at 20 yards...

and if the TIGHT group is off center...

just MOVE the sight elevation
and
just MOVE the sight windage.




THIS is the POWER of SUPER DUPER basic Draw Length Modification
at the 1/4-inch LEVEL.


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## nuts&bolts

jim p said:


> I decided that I needed to watch my float to see if I could learn anything.
> 
> So I draw my bow with not intentions of shooting. I keep my thumb on the thumb peg. The first time I draw and sight the pin is moving in an ellipse about 4" wide and 2" high. The second time I draw the pin is moving across the X about 3" in all directions. It moved from left to right it moved from top to right, just all across the X. The pin would not stop and seemed to take maybe 1/3 second to make its move from one change of direction to the next change of direction.
> 
> So next I decide to watch the float with the intention of shooting. The float decreased in size to about 2" in all directions with the pin wanting to drop low. I would push the pin back up into the X.
> 
> So does anyone know how to analyze this float and what can I try to get the float a little smaller.



1) If you are right handed...GET the LEFT armpit at 90 degrees, when shooting a LEVEL shot, at full draw.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.
If your LEFT side upper arm is DOWNHILL,
from SHOULDER joint to elbow...if the upper arm is DOWNHILL, when you are taking a LEVEL shot...

FIX THIS
bring the elbow UP.



THIS is bad.
ELBOW low.
Shoulder to elbow (bow arm side) the upper arm bone is DOWNHILL.

THIS is GOOD.

This will shrink your FLOAT,
the float which you should not be paying attention to.

FOCUS more on your form, and your shooting results.



Notice how for the fella on the LEFT,
the BOW side UPPER arm bone is DEAD PARALLEL to the arrow.

*VERY stable.*
LITTLE to ZERO work for the shoulder muscle,
when the BOW arm side upper arm is DEAD parallel to the arrow,
when at full draw.


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## nuts&bolts

jim p said:


> I decided that I needed to watch my float to see if I could learn anything.
> 
> So I draw my bow with not intentions of shooting. I keep my thumb on the thumb peg. The first time I draw and sight the pin is moving in an ellipse about 4" wide and 2" high. The second time I draw the pin is moving across the X about 3" in all directions. It moved from left to right it moved from top to right, just all across the X. The pin would not stop and seemed to take maybe 1/3 second to make its move from one change of direction to the next change of direction.
> 
> So next I decide to watch the float with the intention of shooting. The float decreased in size to about 2" in all directions with the pin wanting to drop low. I would push the pin back up into the X.
> 
> So does anyone know how to analyze this float and what can I try to get the float a little smaller.


2) ALways shoot a STRONG shot.
....to help you shoot a STRONG shot...ADD weight to the riser itself. MAKE the riser physically heavier. You could use a bolt, and put LARGE fender washers, a WHOLE stack of fender washers CLOSE to the RISER.
.....WHY a HEAVIER riser?

.....THIS forces you to PULL HARDER into the WALL, which will STABILIZE your FLOAT, the FLOAT you should IGNORE.

Like a PIRATE, tells his "COLLEAGUES", when pirate ships used OARS...

PUT YA BACK INTO IT, ya lackey.

So,
SHORT STRING your bow.

ADD twists to the bowstring,
maybe just 2 extra twists on the TOP bowstring end loop
and say 3 twists EXTRA on the BOTTOM bowstring end loop.

WHY?

Cuz, this DROP the draw weight,
but MORE IMPORTANTLY

this INCREASES your holding weight.

WHY a physically heavier riser?
WHY a HIGHER holding weight?

Cuz,
as the PIRATE would say,
this FORCES you ..."TO PUT YA BACK INTO IT...ya lackey"....ARRRRGH

With the NEW, HIGHER holding weight,
PULL HARD,
PULL at least 5 POUNDS HEAVIER than your holding weight,
and then
make your RELEASE FIRE.

THIS will also SHRINK the float
you really should be IGNORING.


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## whido isle

Another big thank you to nuts & bolts I've been working on the the same issues, my form. This helps explain it more for me


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## Joe Schnur

This appears to beg the front arm please explain further


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## whido isle

?? For nuts & bolts what is the difference between adding weight to the riser verses adding stabilizer weight??


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## Ta2guru13

Mass weight vs stabilizer weight. Stabilizer weights aren't actually used to add mass to the bow (although they do) but actually to make L/R misses less, etc. adding weight close to the bow doesn't change your stabilizer "sweet spot" as nuts&bolts puts it, but rather simply adds overall mass weight. Hope that makes sense...but that's my take. Hope it helps


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## nuts&bolts

whido isle said:


> ?? For nuts & bolts what is the difference between adding weight to the riser verses adding stabilizer weight??


Sooo,
a HEAVY riser will work well with a HIGHER holding weight.

So,
let's say you have a 60 lb draw weight bow.

So,
let's also say you have 60% letoff cams,
so the holding weight is 24 POUNDS.

So,
let's say you pull pretty FIRMLY into the wall of the bow,
so your release fires when you are PULLING 27-28 POUNDS of pulling pressure.

So,
adding more and more weight to the RISER itself,
makes the FIRING PLATFORM MORE STABLE.

Think of a cannon.
NOT enough weight on the cannon,
and you get LOTS of recoil
and LOTS of wasted energy.

Make the cannon HEAVY enough,
and you get LESS recoil
and more energy is transferred to the cannon ball.


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## nuts&bolts

whido isle said:


> ?? For nuts & bolts what is the difference between adding weight to the riser verses adding stabilizer weight??


Soo, as always,
too much of a good thing, becomes a BAD thing.

IF you do not fatigue,
the HEAVIER riser will help you, with the HIGHER holding weight. More stable foundation.

Then,
work the END weights on your stabilizer
to TORQUE tune the system.

FRONT Heaviness to get your shot as FLAT as possible.

ONE side heavy on the SIDE ROD,
to TORQUE TUNE your SIDEWAYS misses.


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## zernzm08

Tag


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