# the FULL model, by Moon



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Gentlemen,

Here’s a bit more “dope” for you, to borrow an old gun writers words. I’m going to end up re-writing it word for word in replies; hope this answers some of your questions.

A word about the solid model software generated riser pictures (what a mouthful), it’s a few revisions old, and the final revision is identical in all but a few small cosmetic details. Perhaps I should have switched it out with the newer model, but to be honest with you, I don’t really feel much like more photoshop, or illustrator right now.

I can get to any questions or comments later tomorrow. Proper pictures when the handles return from decorating.

Jungle.


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## TTUArcher (Sep 30, 2002)

The shape of the riser looks a lot like an AR. Which I think looks really good.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Looks really similar to the AR indeed but I'm pretty sure the Moon bow plays in another league.
At least it's quite unlikely that it will break on six different spots at the same time like the AR of 2003 does.

Only knowing that the energy is stored in Barnsdale limbs at full draw would give me a big confidence in that bow.

The non-vented riser may not please the eye of todays bowhunters. We all are used to see generously cut-out risers these days and the look reminds to the die-cast risers of the 80's and early 90's but it looks very well balanced.
The limb pocket area carries a lot of weight. That's proved to be a great help for holding the bow steady while aiming.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Did I read that right?

It's gonna carry Darton CPS cams and Barnsdale limbs?

What will the finished specs be, namely ATA, Brace and IBO?

What will the price be?


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Rangeball said:


> *Did I read that right?
> 
> It's gonna carry Darton CPS cams and Barnsdale limbs?*


 Yip!!



Rangeball said:


> *What will the finished specs be, namely ATA, Brace and IBO?
> 
> What will the price be? *


ATA is 44". Not sure about the other specs. Maybe there will be different limbs to choose from.

Price is almost 2K from what I've read on another thread.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Sounds like the Limb mounting system will model how Martin does there’s… That’s good as I think it may be one of the better systems. Also looks like the shelf area is radiused so it does not “pinch” the hand like Martins. Another good thing! The integrated limb pockets have been done by PSE before. Good idea but I was told they stopped because of the cost of a bigger billet and more machining. So I believe it when you say this will be more $$$$ then average.

Looks like you took a lot of good ideas and combined them into one bow. The one thing I liked was the fact that the riser was 32” . That’s were many bows are leaving off from a AtoA standpoint. Looks like the limbs are going to be parallel as well. I am the furthest thing from an Engineer but I think a well built 38-40 inch AtoA Parallel limbed bow might?? Be really good from an accuracy standpoint. Especially if you keep a 7.5 – 7.75 inch brace height However It looks like you may come in under 38” inches?? 

Nice combination of existing technologies. Going to fuel that bad boy with a Tri-Track system by chance??


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## TTUArcher (Sep 30, 2002)

2K? Are you kidding me? I think I will stick with my AR that will break in six different spots.

For 2K that bow better find the damn deer for you.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

44" I was guessing much less by the limb pocket angles. That's sounds like a long limbed high brace height bow


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

TTUArcher said:


> *2K? Are you kidding me? I think I will stick with my AR that will break in six different spots.
> 
> For 2K that bow better find the damn deer for you. *


Keep in mind that Jungle just started making his bows.
Obviously he does not care about getting wealthy as quick as possible, just by making another average bow, offering at a price most customers are willing to accept.

I'm not selling anything for him here but I highly respect the attitude to make an outstanding product, built at the highest quality and for the intended purpose only, disregarding how many he will sell.
I think it's a bow for bowhunters/archers who know what is all about and who prefer reliable quality first.
Well, the price is high but at the end of the story, it's like with any other things, too: You'll get what you pay for.

PS: At this time I can't afford that bow, too but if I ever will have the money at hand, I would not hesitate to order one.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well….

Lets take A Bowman for example . They start out with a very large block of aluminum Certainty no smaller then what is required for that. The machining is VERY extensive. The limbs are Barnsdales and the tri-track Cams also require extensive accurate machining. The grip is Loesch. Custom built to your Specs one by one. For around $1,000.00…

Were is something in this design worth another $1,000.00?? But then again I don’t care Make it , Have fun!! Those that want it will buy it. Just don’t tell me that this design is WHY it’s worth $2,000.00 apparently others are doing more for less but not putting it all together in a configuration that this one has to offer. It certainty is different and it’s obvious why it cost more then a $600.00 bow. The Limbs , Cams , and Limb mounting system already exist so its not R& D but perhaps it’s patent Royalties… Don’t know .. Don’t care more choices are always a good thing.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

TTUArcher,

I’ve heard of a bow called the AR, you’d have to ask Pete as to it’s original origin…

The basic look is about where the similarity ends, and on closer examination of the geometry, I don’t think you’d find it to be that similar. 

May I also respond to your later post regarding the cost, please go to “Where is the new stuff for 2005”, at the bottom. I have already addressed this issue in great detail…if you still have questions after reading my response there, I’d be glad to answer them here.

I am trying to consolidate my replies to this spot, as I’m all over the show at the moment.

Look forward to hearing back from you TTUArcher,

While the bow may not find the deer for you, it may just allow you to find your deer! 

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Duggaboy,

Thank-you, I can’t add anything to what you’ve said. Perhaps it was a mistake to get too many irons in the fire so to speak, w/ posting all over the place…it’s obiouse to me you’ve been following. 

Rangeball,

Please reference “where’s the new stuff for 05” (manufacturers section), and “first blood w/ new bow”(bowhunting section)…I think that’ll answer most of what you’ve asked. At the speed I type, a couple of clicks on your end would help me out. 

The actual ATA and BH are still pending a final decision; I’ve gone from the mid 7’s to the low 8’s w/ BH, and from 42 odd to 44 odd w/ ATA. I want to get a few more hours in before I finalize the specs, I’ve been driving Winners Choice nuts…so far they have been very obliging, but I don’t want to ware out my welcome!

The price is $1969.00. I make no apologies; see the other posts mentioned for clarification. 

IBO is a ratio, not an indication of what speeds you can obtain w/ this bow. Stored energy is stored energy - efficiency is efficiency. There’s no free ride. 

Jungle.

(I’m working my way down!)


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Jungle, if you're looking for inherent accuracy and shootability with a "larger" brace and aren't concerned about speed, why did you go with such a highly reflex design over a deflex?

Just curious, and I did check out your "new for '05" thread comments, will hunt up the other one


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

I've tried to cover that in the Geometry area of the picture etc. posted at the top...I'm assuming you read it, but to elaborate a bit, to get the affect of a bow w/ stabilizer - without the stabilizer.

Jungle


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

I want to give all your questions the attention they need, please bear with me while I plunk out the responses.

Jungle.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

I read that, but I suppose it boils down to what "enhance other desireable characteristics" of a reflex design means?

How does your reflex design fight shooter induced torque compared to a deflex riser?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Centerx,

Using the half rounds w/ sockets is a really good way IMO to align a limb in a pocket. I concur w/ your take on the quality (and thought) that goes into Martin bows. For your info, the first Martin bow I ever used was a Howatt Hunter recurve, and later, a Cougar Magnum w/ about 35 or 40 % let-off. I believe, they ARE truly committed to offering the best they can for the dollar, and, have their customers best interests at heart as they approach any decision making. 

Yeah, the PSE one-piece design was nice, it’s confusing though, with conflicting marketing from year to year, you don’t quite know what’s what, it can’t all be true!!! 

I can’t speak to the 38 or 40” ATA on this handle, but I do know that the 42 to 44 range works very well. To get the lower ATA would require a limb change, at 42”, I’m near the limit of pre-stress Dave recommended. For reliability, I don’t really want to be near the ragged edge on anything. 

I like the 3 track cams, and the problems they address, but at this time I don’t have plans on putting them on a bow. I have something else in mind, but it requires more R&D than I can muster right now. I’ve got my work cut out for me trying to get people to look at basic design a little differently, if I dumped it on you right now, I’d surely be flamed outa this place! 

The linage of the features on an individual basis may look like “recent”, but making something popular, doesn’t necessarily make it original – or it’s maker, the originator, contrary to popular belief.

For what it’s worth, I had shot every bow that contributed to this design by 95; I will one day document the journey for posterity, and to correctly pay tribute to those that DID have a big influence on my thinking.

Jungle.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

is this price USD or CAD? I just don't see what your riser has over a Merlin riser, considering Merlins archery equipment is going for half the prices of yours. I just don't understand? Is this a start out price that will be lowered once you start to sell some and make a profit, or is this a rock set price?

I cannot see what makes yours different then everyone elses? Ben at Merlin spends tons of time working on the balance and geometry of every riser Merlin produces. Their limbs are the only limb of it's kind for compounds on the market and their price point is far better.

I know Barnsdale limbs are fantastic, and that the CPS system is a trend setter. Your riser also looks great. I just cannot justify the price in my head. Especially putting quality against quality with the Merlins, Martins, Hoyts... Who have 2-3 choices of cam, 2-3 limb options in order to customise one's needs. They sell at a great rate also. Sorry if I sound judgmental. In my mind $2000 is something you pay for a custom rifle or an Olympic recurve all set up. Just my thoughts.
Dylan


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

IMO, the brace height, and let-off, not handle design (reflex vs. deflex), are the overriding factors that contributes to how a bow will react to grip torque. 

A rubber glove and Vaseline will tell you how your grip is, and also how well your bow’s maker did at reducing the inherent torque of your set-up. 

Your right…perhaps I’m too vague in my description as you point out, I would add that they’re stronger, and with the longer lengths and higher hunting weights, that’s important. It’s primarily a balance / weight distribution issue though, and a serious dislike of being hung up on everything I pass by w/ a stabilizer. It also allows for a longer limb in conjunction w/ the flatter angle.

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Centerx,

I’m here to tell you that the design IS WHY it costs more. I’m not sure if your expecting me to hook into Stuart’s bows, or what it is you want from me? Stuart recommended to me the decorator I ended up going with, and also gave me valuable information regarding limb-mounting systems; our bows are as different as night and day. 

Stuart starts out with a block that IS SMALLER, his machine time IS LESS, and that is reflected in his selling price.

To make a handle that exhibits the shooting characteristics this one has, which I have tried to explain, is not cheap. Perhaps it’s difficult to see with what I’ve given you to look at, just what it looks like. Fair enough.

Others are not doing more for less in the same configuration, perhaps when you see a picture w/ something for perspective you will understand…maybe not.

I respect your right to an opinion; please respect me, by not speculating on things you know NOTHING about, for example, the costs of making this bow. 

At the end of the day, I too, agree that more options are a win / win situation, we can agree on that, thanks for your thoughts. 

Jungle.

PS: I liked your first set of constructive questions better.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,

Don’t sweat the questions, I’m not. 

The price is USD, which I might add is scaring me at the moment, as my end fluctuates according to the exchange rate. The price won’t change any time soon, although a forged handle would save some, tooling is expensive, more money I don’t have. 

If your shooting a Merlin, (I assume you are), you already have a good bow. If you’ve followed my posts, and don’t understand the differences, or don’t appreciate them enough to pay more, this bow isn’t for you. 

I have talked w/ Chris (some time ago) about his limbs, but I was as interested in the technology he uses, to make a handle rather than a limb. I don’t doubt that Ben gets the bows exactly like HE wants, just not how I want (or I’d be shooting one), Our perceptions are shaped by our experiences, mine, different from his, and, different from yours. This bow does EXACTLY what I want it to! I’ve done lots of hunting, and wanted a bow that helped a guy out in the field, which this one will do IMO, better than any other, right out of the box.

To borrow your analogy, you can spend a few hundred dollars on a Remington that’ll shoot in an inch all day long, to drop that down to 1/4”, will cost you thousands, and you can forget about buying ammo off the shelf, you’d better be pretty handy at handloading, weighing and measuring cases, MAKING bullets, on and on and on. I would think 2 K would be cheap for a top of the line target recurve, I know there are some out there selling for twice that. 

I completely understand where your coming from, if the price bothers you that much…forget about my bow. I NEVER expected to make everyone happy, only a few. Forgive me if I don’t try comparing apples to oranges, I don’t know Ben, but Chris is a very nice man, that would have helped me out in a split second, if I’d have ended up needing it. 

Jungle.


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Jim,
What is your plan in regards to getting this bow on the market once you've finalized everything.
I think if I remember correctly, you're planning to put something in place in regards to direct ordering.... Is this correct ?

If that is the case what do you have in mind in regards customers ordering a bow sight unseen or having an opportunity to have one in hand to see if it meets their expectations ??? 

Dropping a couple of grand on a bow sight unseen is expecting a great leap of faith on the customer's side.

Will you have a refund policy in place if a customer is not happy with the bow or a trial period of some sort ?

One of the things that has always bothered me is the lousy resale value in the archery industry, it's nothing compared to shooting industry. 

I know every manufacturer says that their bow is the best on the market & you should never need another bow, but the reality is that consumers get bored with what they concieve as old technology & look to get the latest & greatest. 

It's no different in regards to rifles as I well know. A well made rifle in a 30/06 will just about do the job on anything in North America, but when a new caliber such as the WSM calibers come out everyone is interested in them & up jumps the sales in rifles in these calibers. I guess it's just human nature to try something new that we precieve as better.

I see what you're intend is in regards to making the ultimate bow in your opinion, but have you really thought the marketing aspect out in regards to the market that you plan to go after.

I'm fortunate enough where I could buy one of your bows, but would have a hard time dropping $2,000 on a bow without going over it throughly & seeing that is was money well spent.

I'm the first in line when it comes to buying quality, but I'm a person who has to have it in hand before I spend the money.

Something I think you're have to address to make this a successful endeavor.

All the best to you & your dream.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Merlin actually gets test shooters. Especially for their recurve models. So it's not how Ben feels it should be. It's more of a consensus.

Top of the line recurves will go for around $650 per riser and $600-650 for limbs. Thats $1300 and you actually get to customize your recurve set up. What type of limb to what type of riser you prefer.

If I am reading this correctly, you are comparing a Merlin to a remington and your bow to a $2000 custom rifle? I just don't see that holding water if my perception of your comparison was correct. 

I was never really intrested in buying your bow, except from the stand point that I am Albertan and it would be neat to say I shot a bow made in Alberta. Otherwise, I shoot Olympic style recurve and have one compound I hunt with and have no need of spending for another at this point in time.

Thanks for your input.

Dylan


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hit-em,

Yes, I’m selling manufacturer direct (mail order), hence, I can tell you with confidence that you are getting more bow for your dollar (whether it’s viewed that way or not is an entirely different matter). To start out with, the manufacturer mark-up, in part because I have relatively little overhead, and also because of the price point – is less, and second, there is no middle man. All that shakes out to be more bow for your dollar. No, I have nothing against GOOD pro shops, they are the backbone of the industry, it’s simply a matter of price point, if they tacked on what they’d need to justify the outlay of cash to carry my bows, I’d really hear some grumbling! 

The marketing plan, as it were, involves print ads, and a good web site…and of course, word of mouth. I don’t have an advertising budget, and have arrangements made w/ my favorite magazine’s editors to submit info for inclusion in there “what’s new” (or equivalent) sections to get the ball rolling (I also have some that write using). The first run is almost all spoken for, sight unseen, by hunting clients…else I wouldn’t have been able to risk it, I sweat hard for a living, and wouldn’t like to spend the next few years paying off a big stack of bows – no matter how nice they were!

I can tell you UNEQUIVICALLY; it would make me sick to sell someone a bow that they didn’t like in the end. To do all that I can to avoid that, I have gone to great lengths to accurately portray the bow, and not hold anything back to mislead or misrepresent. I think in part, this will go along way towards having a low return rate. Those who take the time to look through all the information I will eventually provide, should have NO surprises as to what this bow is, and what it’ll do.

I do worry about differences in perception, but I believe that I’m not the only one out there that has “been there and done that” with many different styles of hunting bows. I expect these guys to be intrigued by the #’s alone, as they have probably came up with their own set of “must have” criteria for a hunting bow. I think the bow someone hunts with say’s A LOT about themselves, and IMO, their experience level. If I had a dollar for every bowhunter that told me their set-up somehow overcame physics, or that they could handle what they were packing – only to mess it up at the moment of truth…I am constantly amazed at the effectiveness of marketing!

Trial periods – Your right! Big leap of faith here, but I expect people to spend the time researching to avoid ordering something they’re not expecting. Having said that, my intent (contrary to what some may be thinking) is to make something that works very well, in the field, which is the only place it should matter to a bowhunter. Being small, I can take the time to speak to folks on an individual basis, hopefully clarifying any cloudy issues that may result in a returned bow. If I’ve done my job, and you do yours, there won’t be any returns, however, if upon using this bow for it’s intended purpose, it doesn’t do exactly what I say…send it back for a full refund. I would expect a rundown of just what the shortcomings were, and, I will do as much as I can before hand - to weed out tire kickers, or those not of the same mind w/ regards to what a good hunting bow is. It is my prerogative to do this, as there aren’t the margins here to have many returns, which would surely put me under. I have a good deal of confidence in this bow…primarily because I’ve screwed up WAY too much myself while bowhunting and experimenting. 

I play around with lots of different bows, but when it comes to hunting anymore, my recipe has remained the same for quite a few years…this bow is simply a combination of what’s proven to work in my hands, which I don’t consider to be gifted by any stretch, and so, I feel my recipe will work well for others. In fact, Newton says this bow will even improve the potential of the “gifted” shots out there. 

Big difference between letting the pin SETTLE on a rib cage, or leg line, and releasing the shot with confidence that your bow will in fact deliver the arrow to that exact point of aim (as your heart is racing and you’d give about anything to get the arrow where you want), and bobbing around all over the show, finally letting her rip because it’s just too much to handle any more – sight picture be damned!!! How about when you keep everything together, and the arrow simply doesn’t go where you were aiming!!! I get excited enough to have to rely on auto pilot – at least a portion of the time, and its VERY difficult to figure out what goes wrong in those situations. Hands and knees bloodtrailing, for sometimes days, isn’t my idea of a confidence building experience. I have on occasion lowered my bow from the tree after a shot, and had it land out by the arrow stuck in the dirt!

Hit-em, I really liked your questions, I hope this has answered them. If it hasn’t, please fire away…as I said, I wouldn’t want ANYONE to be mislead into believing something that wasn’t so. And, I would surely appreciate any comments or suggestions my response might bring from you.

I leave the “have you thought this through” for you to decide, at the end of the day my fate is in the hands of 3 or 4 million archers, surely there are a few like minded one’s out there.

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,

I digress, you win.

And no, thank-YOU for the input! 

Jungle.


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Jim,
I appreciate what you're going through in regards to bringing a new product to market. Putting your money & faith into something takes alot of courage & a bit of insanity.
If you weren't a little insane before you did this you will be afterwards. Believe me I know !!!  

I agree with you in regards to doing your homework before you decide to buy, but how can one know what a bow feels like in his hand without having one in his hand or what the draw cycle feels like when he draws it back based upon other peoples opinion.

Again it comes down to personal preference that's why we have so many people who are steadfast in believing that their equipment is the best out there. 

I'm definitely interested in your bow, but I am a little troubled by your response that it comes down to your discretion to refund his money, if a customer was to return a bow because he doesnt feel it meets his needs.
I'm one who basically believes that when you're in business for yourself, you have to have a mind set that the customer is always right...no matter how painful it is .

Can I make a suggestion.......Why not have a # of trial bows that can be sent to potential customers after they send in payment for a bow that they can try out to see if it meets everything they percieve in regards to the "Ultimate Bow". Once they decide they send the bow back to you, they either get their money back or a new bow.
You wouldn't have to have a large inventory of demo bows. I would think you would have to decide on the # based upon your market response.

For a small operation as yourself I would think that this would make sense in regards to marketing your bow, it would be a real plus in regards to an ad campaign.

" Moon Archery the only bow manufacturer with a try it before you buy it option. Reach for a Moon the "Ultimate in Archery!!"

How's this sound to you ???
 

Look forward to hearing from,


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hit-em,

The design/prototyping process alone was enough to test my resolve…I have an idea it’s probably for the best I don’t quite know everything I’m getting into. At least this way I can remain positive. Opinions vary, but most do agree…I was a bit touched to begin with!!!

To elaborate on the information I plan on providing, I have arrangements made w/ a VERY credible individual to compile a performance profile on the finished product, for inclusion in the literature. Those able to interpret that – will have much to go off of in determining the details of the bow, sight unseen. Having said that…you have a very good point.

My communication skills have let me down, I hadn’t intended to come across as having the final word as to if a refund would be given. Ultimately, it would be the customer that would decide how they wanted to proceed, however, a blanket “no questions asked” doesn’t fit either, as I’d definitely have questions as to the shortcomings, in the customers view, and also a chance to make it right…if that was possible, and/or desirable, to the customer.

It’s hard to keep emotional distance from criticisms, when you’ve poured your heart into something as I have, I went through stages during the design phase where I so questioned my objectivity, that I had a small handful of engineers and hunters (that I respected) that I kept in fairly close touch with, just to keep on track. I’m glad my family tolerated me!!!

I very much like your idea of a “demo” bow/s, that would put my conscience at ease, since this IS NO small amount of money. I certainly don’t want to be limited to only white collar that could afford to throw it in the corner if it’s not what they like. In fact, I’m a meat hunter at heart, although I’m impressed as much by antlers, & challenge, and all the highs (and lows) that come with them, as the die-hard trophy hunter.

I think this one suggestion was worth all the typing I’ve done, it just sits well w/ me to do business in a good way, I hate being ripped off, or mislead, or even the sensation of something foul. There’s no glory in winning at ANY cost.

It’s become my practice to sleep on major decisions at least once before diving into things, but this sure sounds good. 

I wasn’t kidding when I said the margins aren’t great, and w/ the CAN dollar being relatively high…I can see what’ll happen to that “bottom line” w/ shipping all over the place. Suggestions please.

Thanks again for your input, if there’s one thing I have learned (the hard way), it’s to listen when someone w/ more knowledge and experience say’s something. I’m all ears! 

Jungle.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

As a piece of Art, selling for that price becomes understandable. As an Artist I know what it's like to pour ones heart and soul into a painting, scupture, drawing, or otherwise. Good luck. Maybe one day I'll get to test shoot one. Then at least I can say, I got to test shoot an Alberta made bow. 

Dylan


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Jim,
The idea of a "Try before you buy " is something that I think will give you the advantage in regards to marketing your bow & demostrate the confidence your company has in it's product.
There's a lot spin you can do with that.

Plus it will weed out the Tire Kickers as you say , because only those who are serious about having a bow such as yours would be willing to send the $2,000 to see if it really will be what they want in a bow.

In regards to the shipping cost I would have to think this is something the customer will have to absorb. I would think most people would rather spend $20 in shipping cost to try out something before they totally commit the $2,000.

Perhaps what you could offer is free shipping on future upgrades or perhaps a discount of some sort....something to show appreciation to your customer base. Gee what a concept !!
How often have we had a company thank us for buying their product long after we have made the purchase.

Let me ask you a couple of questions in regards to what I could expect in regards to performance with the Moon Bow ....

The things I look for in a hunting bow in regards to performance is 
1. Shootabilty
2. Smooth draw cycle
3. Comfortable valley.
4. Solid back wall
5. QUIET !!
6. Little or no hand shock !!
7.Small comfortable grip
8. After shot stability
9. Good to very good speed
10. 34-36" ATA
11. 7-8" brace hgt.
12. Enough bow weight to help in overcoming shooting errors, but not too much where it gets tiring when practicing.

This is kind of my major dozen list of what I look for in a bow outside of overall quality.

I know you plan on using the Darton CPS system on this bow. 
Which is a great design, but Darton's are not known for their quietness, but are great shooters.
I know a lot of that has to do with design & bow configuration.

Which CPS system do you plan on using ?? Darton has had a # of upgrades over the years. I've also notice that Darton's CPS cams are not the best machined cams I've ever seen, nor have they looked to made with the best material. I know they're made out Aluminium but it seems they're made with a very soft grade of Alumunium or perhaps they have a have a poor finish applied afterwards.. Kind of flimsy with sharp edges.
Just my opinion

If you think the Moon Bow will meet my needs put me down on your list.

Perhaps I can say after I got your bow in hand that I reached for the Moon & got it !!

A little corny, but I hope that will be the case.

Look forward to hearing from you,

All the best,
Hit -em


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

I think #10 knocks you out... 

What bow are you shooting now that meets that criteria?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,
I did spend a lot of time and effort to make the handle as cosmetically pleasing (my view) as I could, and still have the size and geometry I wanted…a challenge for sure. Most of the lines on it are tangent, and I’ve been told it’s has an “organic” bone like look to it. As far as being art…probably most won’t be that thrilled at how it looks, if that qualifies me, perhaps it is!

It is first and foremost a functional bow, as I’m a firm believer that this, and little else, should dictate a bowhunters choice. I take shooting at living animals very seriously (as I’m sure most do!) and look at shot placement as an art form. I simply wanted a bow that allowed me to do that more consistently, hence the large (inertia) handle.

Since we have had so much confusion w/ assigning a $ value to just what that takes, I’ll let you decide for yourself if it offers something your favorite hunting bow doesn’t, as I’ve said, right out of the box.

I’ll be in Edmonton to pick-up the stainless hardware for the other handles sometime during the week of the 11-15, contact me on e-mail [email protected], we can discuss the details, I’d be happy to bring up the prototype I’m shooting, tweak it to fit, and you can see first hand exactly where I’m coming from. Then, you will know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, why it’s more than your Merlin.

As I’ve said elsewhere, any speed, anywhere, any time. 

Hit-em,

As Rangeball say’s, I don’t think the Full model will meet the criteria of #10, (the handle is within 2” of your lower figure!). As for the other 11, I’ve got them all covered! I have prior commitments that limit my time here today, please give me a while to address your post in more detail…a bit later.

The Moon thing has sooo much mileage, as I understand, branding a product (company) is of the utmost importance, and many struggle w/ keeping their style alive…I have over 20 good names for subsequent models, and so many little phrases that cover almost every taste, I love it. All the bows that eventually come from the FULL handle will be what I like, from there, I’ll start catering to other tastes. 

Your cam questions also need time to answer properly…hope your e-mail lets you know when I get to it.

Thank-you guys for taking the time.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

The intro page, for those hunting nuts out there!


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Very sexy riser...I'm going to assume that the deep well limb bolt holes will allow for in-the-field dissassembly?


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Rangeball...
I'm presently hunting with a Bowtech Liberty & have to say this is one of the best shooting bows I've had in years it's met just about everything I've looked for in a hunting bow.
I never thought I would go back to a single cam after trying various systems , but the cam on this bow is the smoothess single cam I've ever used. Has a great draw cycle & nice valley & a great wall IMO.
Been a twin cam man for years mainly Hoyt CC+ & Stewart Bowman's Wendell Cams.
So far I'm really liking my Liberty !!

Jungle...
In regards to ATA.
What is the shortest ATA you think you'll be able do on the Moon ??
You mentioned that you have plans for other models down the road. Is there going to be anything available in a shorter ATA ?

In that vein .. Don't you think by coming out with different models down the road will cause some concern with your intial customers who believed that what they were buying was the ultimate bow & then find that you're come out with something that is now the latest & the greatest. A touchy subject for someone who paid $2,000 for a bow.

Or is your plan to come out with upgrades & options to your base model ?? Therefore your customers can customise their bow the way they want & stay up with the latest advances.

Look forward to hearing back from you.

PS... Those are some great looking bucks on your flyer. 
Do you have a outfitting operation in Canada ? 
If so, I would like to get some info on it.
Thanks


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

It is usually possible to try before you buy. You go into a good pro-shop and you can shoot a few arrows. That will allow you to get at least an initial feeling for a bow. Small things like the balance, or the grip width and angle can have a profound influence on how a bow feels.

I think the try before you buy on a direct sales bow is a great idea. I hope the logistics work out. I won't be able to afford such a bow anytime soon (I'll just keep buying lottery tickets  ) but it is fun to think about it.

Dylan, there are many products out there that have a range of prices and performance, and even looks. It it was just a matter of a narrowly defined set of performance parameters then there wouldn't be luxury cars, high priced silverware, china, or crystal glasses. costly clothing and shoes, golf clubs, tennis racquets, eyeglass frames, sunglasses, quivers, sights, releases, etc.

We all decide what something is worth then spend our money.

I really like the honesty here, this bow is going to cost a lot of money, if you don't think it is worth it, then the bow isn't for you. It is refreshing to see that there isn't the "you must have this bow" attitude here.

Good luck with all of this.


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## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

that is a really nice looking riser

however knowing what a billet block of 6061 T6 aluminum and the time and laybor costs of a riser cut from a mazak mill or even from a CNC mill I simply cannot justify the cost of the finished product 

I wish you all the luck in youre venture


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

GVDocHoliday said:


> *Very sexy riser...I'm going to assume that the deep well limb bolt holes will allow for in-the-field dissassembly? *


Yes, it can be done.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

If a custom $2,000.00 bow seems like a ton of money for some, it's no worse than a lot of other custom products.
Do a internet search on custom knives and check out the prices.
I know a guy who makes custon folding knives that start at $4,500.00 and he has a year waiting list!!!
I'd much rather buy Jim's new bow for $2,000.00 than a custom folding knife for $4,500.00 or even more 
Heck, I remember a custom bolt action rifle maker whose rifles cost $10,000.00 and up.
...And the actions he uses aren't even his own!
His custom scope mount and rings go for $1,500.00, last time I checked!
I guess, because it's a bow with most others going for $600.00 to $700.00 is what makes the price so hard to swallow for some.
Is the Moon bow worth $1,300.00 more than a Mathews, Bowtech or AR which are, likewise, parallel limbed bows ?
Most will say, no way.
Let's have some fun and do a comparison. 

1 Riser - The Moon bow's riser looks much superior to the 3 above mentioned bows to my eyes.
It is made from an 85lb billet and has an "I" beam cross sectioned construction with integral limb pockets.
This makes for a much stronger, flex resistant, stable, riser which usually results in a quieter bow.

2 Limbs - The Barnsdale limbs have it all over the Gordon limbs used by Mathews, Bowtech, and in house molded limbs of the AR.
I was told PSE uses in house limbs but I could have heard wrong.
Barnsdale limbs have a higher strength psi rating and better cast vs other limbs.

3 Limb pockets - Don't see how you can beat an integral limb pocket, compared to one that is pinned in place or held together with screws, with better chance for misalignment and noise.
Advantage Moon, again.

4 Components - probably more of a toss up here as most bows use quality components like axles, cams, strings and cables nowdays. 
Moon's selection of Winners Choice for strings and cables is staying ahead of the game though.
Bowtech no longer offers WC and Mathews and AR never did.

5 Shootability - Unknown since the Moon isn't available just yet. 

6 Finish - Jim stated on another thread that he is going with a Type 3 hardcoat finish for the Moon bow.
I did some research on the Type 3 hardcoat anodized finish.
It is vastly superior to the soft anodized or dipped finish of the other mentioned bows. Much more costly too!

7 Looks - Looks are important to me but not the be all and end all.
However, I like the lines of Jim's Moon bow with the integral limb pockets, "I" beam construction, with no cut-outs.
IMO, the Moon bow is the best looking of the parallel limb bows I have seen.

So, if you think about it, there is good reason the Moon bow costs a lot more than the others.
It costs much more to produce than the others but results in a much stronger bow with the greater craftsmanship.
Is it worth $1,300.00 more ?
That is a question only you, the purchaser, can decide. 


Sag.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

GVDocHoliday,

Thank-you for the nice words, I try. The long limb bolts do allow for taking the bow down without a bow press, and as the strings become slack, there are still a lot of threads holding. 

Hit-em,

I doubt, even w/ limb changes down the road, the Full handle will ever net anything less than 40” ATA, perhaps the high 30’s, I’m not sure, so anything I say would be pure speculation at this point. 

Regarding causing confusion by coming out with another handle down the road somewhere. I really don’t think it will, the further I go away from this big handle, the more conventional it will become, and the more conventional it will feel. At the same time, I won’t have physics on my side to be able to say it works any different than anyone else’s bow, and so I would be marketing apples to apples at that stage. The full handle will remain a shooters bow no matter what else eventually comes out. It would simply be an option for those that have a different recipe, and, would also offer different configurations and ranges of geometry. I’ve got too many idea’s to rest on a single bow. 

My plan is to offer limb and cam options down the road, and this will come before anything else in the way of handles. Right now I’m trying to get right the “soft 15”, which is based on Dave’s 15” recurve limb, and Rex’s CP5 cam. Sweet, smooth, and forgiving is the order of the day. If the DL range were greater, I wouldn’t mess around till next summer w/ anything else, however, that cam peters out at just over 29” DL, cutting out those w/ longer DL’s. This has made it necessary to look at a cam that pays out more string, and so there will also be a “medium 15”, based on the same limb, and the CP10, which is a bit hotter, and offers the longer spectrum of DL.

Although I plan on playing w/ a range of limbs, that will net slightly different configurations, I won’t be looking at that for a while. My attention is going into getting the first two working good. In fact, the uncertainty of this venture should have me adding a dissclaimer – other than what’s mentioned above – nothing is in stone.

I have much in mind for Moon patrons in the way of “after the sale” options. For those that love to tinker, or simply want to try another BH or ATA or PDF, the option to get another set of cams/limbs/strings, or a combination there of, to effectively change the characteristics of your bow is good IMO. So, assuming 2 cam and 2 limb options, you could get 4 configurations from one handle, all with decidedly different characteristics. Staying consistent w/ limb mounting and having options is also my idea of top of the line, even though from a business standpoint, it’s not as smart as trying to sell another bow.
 

I don’t guide professionally any more.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Marty,

”Small things like the balance, or the grip width and angle can have a profound influence on how a bow feels.” I agree 100%; Hit em has a very good idea here, especially in light of the price.

Over the long haul, I feel an investment in a good handle, w/ options to change the configuration down the road might even make $$$ sense. My hunting bow is pretty much my buddy; I talk to him in the tree, mostly begging for him to treat me right! Sometimes, just before a shot, I kiss his underside, just for good measure!   

Thanks for trying to reach Dylan, I have been unsuccessful. 

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Archeryaddict (Mike someone from TN),

Thank-you for the nice comment. 

Your speaking outside of my area of expertise, perhaps my machinest is ripping me off! I don’t know, but it sounds like you do. 

What I do know: It takes two men to set the billet up on the table, and the machine buzzes back and forth in 2/1000” steps, before turning around and doing it all over again, removing a bit more on the precision pass. That does one side. Then it goes to another machine where the pockets are machined in, and some of the drilled/tapped holes are done, then, another set-up for the remainder of the drilled and tapped holes. 

Back to the first machine (a great big one that the manufacturer came up to help them w/ to get the time down), where the other side is buzzed on for a while – a long while, as in the side mentioned above. Then it goes to yet another set-up where the arrow pass is created. From there, glass beading takes a human touch, and much time to not damage the (by now) expensive part.

Then, once at the decorator, the finished surface is fine tuned down to a few micro-something or others, and then there are several different steps of masking area’s off, etc. etc. till the hard anodize is applied, baked, or whatever they do. 

My area of expertise…it shoots good, just like I wanted. 

As I have said elsewhere, MY MACHINEST MADE THIS HANDLE POSSIBLE, if I had had to go with quotes given elsewhere, you’d really be *****ing about the cost. That much I do know.

This is the last time I answer anyone w/ regards to $$$, that doesn’t have the courage to even post their real name. Both mine are out here on the chopping block, fire away!

That’s about all I have to say to you. Oh, and thanks for the good luck. 

Jungle.

If I’m overreacting, forgive me, but I’ve about had it with justifying the cost, it should retail for nearer 2 1/2K. JR.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Sag,

Thanks for taking the time to try, however, I think it’s falling on deaf ears!

Is it worth saying again? This bow is not for everyone.

Jim.


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

One bit of advice which may be worthwhile or not. If possible, make the slot wide enough to fit the Martin X cams. You can always use spacers to center another limb but it is dicey to try and spread them.

I really like the shoot through system on the Martin Fury-X system and it would be terrific to be able to tinker with the bow and change the cams if you want.

The X cams are wider than other cams. I tried to put them on an Ultratec that I had and couldn't do it without filing down the limbs, so I abandoned that experiment.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi Marty,

Dave’s limbs are about .850” wide in the slot. Without having the cams you mentioned here, I couldn’t say for sure if they would fit or not. Dave’s Tri-Star Wheel is likely of similar width to the Martin X shoot through cams – just a stab in the dark, but they probably would!

I seldom shot any bow I owned w/ the original cams for more than a week, so I understand the importance of using a cam that you like and are comfortable with. 

Jungle.


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## aggie3d (Feb 14, 2003)

*Sounds Interesting*

I have been following this thread since the start. I am very interested in seeing the final product. I see nothing wrong with price or any other spec., for that matter. I shoot one of dave's ultimate x bows, and love it. You could not have picked a better person to build your limbs. I like the possibility of being able to change and update the bow at a later time. I am wondering if you plan on offering any target colors in it? Just a thought. Please keep us posted on further developments and good luck in your venture.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

aggie3d,

Thank-you for the vote of confidence, it makes it easier to take the bad ones. 

I agree with you 100% on the use of Dave’s limbs, further, I have found him to be genuinely concerned w/ helping where he can with many of the fiddly little issues that would not be immediately apparent to your average arrow flinger. In this day and age where it seems popular to promote a company image of “helping archery, growing archery, etc. etc.”, Dave walks the walk, and does very little talking, others…often doing the most talking, invariably prove to not have the walk down yet. (Glad I’m typing that and not trying to say it!). I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, I’m lucky to have Dave making limbs for me. 

Of the first run of handles being decorated right now, a few are getting a solid flat black treatment, this will be the “Match” finish – and like the bow, it’s simple, functional, and speaks something to the whole concept I’m trying to portray. The camo “Tactical” finish, is WW II (woodlands), and also fits the above description. If you have seen the “intro” page from my pamphlet on the previous page, you will probably know I’m not one for lots of bells and whistles. Having said that, the type of decorating I’m doing has a relatively small fee involved in developing “custom” patterns compared to having a dip film produced…I can’t wait…

I push bowhunting hard, because that’s all I know, but it has long been my opinion that the perfect hunting bow is, if fact, a good target bow. If you looked at the tentative specs, you’ve probably figured that out by now anyway, hence your question.

To market something that doesn’t work in most hands, is, IMO, borderline irresponsible, and NOT for the good of bowhunting. Why target archers shoot forgiving set-ups in controlled conditions, and bowhunters shoot touchy set-ups in…uncontrolled conditions, with dynamic (& living) targets, is simply beyond me, but, I guess Joe public asked for it…and got it. I wish I could invent a good game recovery system…  

Jim.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Please show some finished products. I would really like to see that WWll camo. 

I may take you up on that offer to test out your bow. Where will you be staying and shooting in Edmonton?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hit em,

I haven't forgot about your earlier questions, much of my response is covered in the pamphlet pages I will post here, please bear with me.

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,

Please contact me on my e-mail.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Gentleman,

I forgot to include w/ the above info, the finished bow is not exactly as pictured, some cosmetic changes have been made since these computer generated pictures of the handle were made (early summer 03). I now see that I’ve inadvertently chopped out some of the Winners Choice info, hopefully you'll get the idea, as is.

Jim.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Jim,

I'm not sure whether I've understood that stuff about "softer cams and higher peak weigt is better than harder cam and lower peak weight" correctly but if that is the statement, I respectfully have to disagree.

I'm not at all a fan of softer cams, especially on brace height and the first inches of the draw cycle.
The reason for that is the lower tension of the string at brace height which is inherent with softer cams. 

During the shot sequence, the string incl. the nocked arrow gets accelerated up to point where the string normally stands (brace height).
Beyond that point the strings gets "pulled" back to brace height, allowing the nocked arrow to leave the string.

Exactly that way is critical according to forgiveness of the whole system, because once the point of brace height has passed by the string in the direction towards the riser the pressure of the grip against the inside of the bowhand goes to zero.

Softer cams allow a longer way for the string to move towards the riser. The nocked arrow is on the string for a longer time, increasing the opportunity to cause some influence from the bowhand to the grip >> riser >> bow >> string >> arrow >> shotplacement.

That's my personal experiences with softer cams. I've changed the cams of several dozen of bows from a energy wheel style cam to a harder cam and all archers were happy with the results and confirmed my findings.

Actually I developed a hatchet style double cam together with a German compoundbow manufacturer about 6 years ago. That cam allowed to reach the bows peak weight within the first four inches of draw. All bows which were equipped with that cams have been very forgiving, free of shock&vibration, fast and silent.

For me the best cam on the market today is the Hoyt Spiral cam and I would truely appreciate if it would be possible to put that cam into the limbs of the Moon Patron, when the day of ordering the bow has come.

Thanks
Markus


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Duggaboy,

I agree w/ your comments on low string tension, and how a higher string tension at brace height is desirable. I don’t like the grunt required to get the bow started w/ square top cams, and I don’t like the abrupt drop off, perhaps the terminology I used (round) wasn’t the best, point taken, and I will correct that in the final draft. The CP10 has high levels of energy storage, while maintaining characteristics I feel are also necessary to net a good shooting bow. 

The CPS retains a beautiful easy to draw curve (IMO), and also relatively high string tension and energy storage. Further, it is optimized at all available draw lengths, with consistent ESE for other than 30”, which I don’t think is the most used DL anymore.

While Hoyt does make a good cam, which I have never disputed, I could not see my way clear to have it for reasons stated elsewhere. Certainly, the particular cam you mentioned has found wide acceptance for many accuracy conscious archers, who’s shooting skills are much higher than mine. 

In a nutshell, it is my opinion that the highest rated bow is not the best hunting bow, power is built at the expense of other important factors. The exact recipe each individual chooses will vary, the two different cams I have cover that range, without sacrificing much in the way of sweet shooting characteristics.

If I ever get the chance to build you a bow, it would be sent to your specification, or as close as I could come with the equipment stated, perhaps you would see your way clear to try it for a week, before doing a switch.

Thanks for your thought provoking comments Markus, I hope my choices in who I patronize will not put you off, as I think (how does that go) …given half a chance, you might just like it! 

Sincerely, 
Jim.


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Jim,
I have not been able to read the pages of your brochure that you have posted . Therefore I'm somewhat in the dark in regards to some of the particulars of your bow.
The words are blurry.
When you get the opportunity e-mail me the particulars on your bow & a response to some of my questions.
Again, once you get close to finalizing your bow let me know, let's see if we can do something in regards to me getting my hands on one of bows.
Thanks,
Tim
Hit-em


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hit em,

I thank you for the opportunity,

Sorry about the quality of the info I’m posting, it’s a fine line between file size, and having it work without spitting it back at me, there’s a strong argument that my computer skills leave much to be desired…

I will attempt to make contact w/ you, at which time I’ll get something off.

Jim.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

> As I’ve said elsewhere, [Bold]any speed[/bold] anywhere, any time.


Jungle, you've mentioned "any speed" a few times. I'm assuming such a statement is being made as your riser will allow a person to shoot any grain's per pound finished arrow they want to obtain "any speed"?

How is your bow warranty going to address this, if I've made a correct assumption?

If I'm incorrect, please address what you mean by "any speed". 

Thanks.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

Good question, I’ve been waiting for it to come. 

It’s an attention getter for the most part. If you were to follow AMO suggestions, minimum arrow weight is based on a number of factors, and isn’t consistent at 5 grains per pound, most bows used at 5 grains per pound are actually using arrows lighter than the AMO recommendation. Draw length for one, has a huge affect on stored energy, so to put an across the board – 5 grains per pound limit on a particular bow model, with no other specification can be misleading as to the stresses your actually putting on your bow. E.g.: 27” draw @ 5 grains per pound vs. 32” draw @ 5 grains per pound, with same PDF will net decidedly different arrow velocities, and presumably different amounts of unused energy to be absorbed by the bow and components. 

I feel a speed limit might be more accurate w/ any given bow, and any given energy storage capabilities. This bow is built strongly, and will easily handle any “normal” speeds, you would not be hurting it by going under 5 grains per pound if you had a short draw, and similarly, if you use the softer of the two cams, bigger speed can still be generated, but not within the normally accepted limits of arrow weight. By building the bow strong, you can tune it for high speeds by using a suitable weight arrow that will net what you desire. This in effect, null and voids the commonly used ratings, which mean nothing to a bowhunter, where you can use whatever turns your crank. 

So, does this mean you will get 320 at the same PDF w/ soft cams and higher BH as you would w/ a high energy storing bow, no, it does mean that you can use your same arrow, store the same energy with the soft cams and sorter stroke by increasing your PDF a bit, and net the same arrow speed, while maintaining the sweet shooting characteristics of the softer cam and more forgiving BH and ATA. That’s my idea of shooting fast – well.

I don’t have details right now on the warranty issue, or the exact speed, but will by the time I have bows ready, and any speed doesn’t mean 375 fps, more like 320 to 330. BUT, in a friendly shooting set-up.

If it weren’t for the affect, and getting people thinking about stored energy, I would write, any NORMAL speed, etc. etc. IMO, if you can store 85 lbs of energy w/ a high speed bow, you can also store it with a lower rated bow, and shoot it better.

Jim.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Jungle, thanks for that.



> I don’t have details right now on the warranty issue, or the exact speed, but will by the time I have bows ready, and any speed doesn’t mean 375 fps, more like 320 to 330. BUT, in a friendly shooting set-up.


320-330 is definitely more than adequate in my opinion. What arrow weight, draw weight and length combination are you basing this statement on?

I currently am shooting a 380 grain arrow at 278 from a 62# draw weight just under 29" of dl. What would you expect from your bow set up to the same specs?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

duggaboy said:


> *Looks really similar to the AR indeed but I'm pretty sure the Moon bow plays in another league.
> At least it's quite unlikely that it will break on six different spots at the same time like the AR of 2003 does.
> 
> Only knowing that the energy is stored in Barnsdale limbs at full draw would give me a big confidence in that bow.
> ...


I have no Qualms with the riser. The Merlin Apex was H beam machined as well, though in a slightly different manner. I am intrested in seeing the full package in a photo once it is all put together with "decoration". 

The Moon riser definitely looks tough. I prefer it alot over the AR and feel that there is no real comparison between the 2, as they are designed for different reasons.

Will their be a choice between limbs from barsndale? Like birds eye maple top cover or otherwise? I think that would be an excellent option to have. I like the sounds of WW2 camo. 

Hope you have photos soon. 
Dylan


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi Rangeball,

I fear that I’m misleading you. Without trying to guess at what a similar set-up of mine would net you for arrow speed, let me answer you for now in this way.

How I would approach this is: Your arrow is 380 grains, PDF 62, and DL 29, if you wanted the sweetest shooting combo, I’d put together something that’d cover a similar range in PDF w/ the soft cam, set at 29” DL. I’d then make up an arrow that was 380 grains, and simply adjust via PDF until it reproduced your target arrow speed. Your combo comes in at about 65 ft lbs of KE, for a power factor of 1.04, your shooting about 6.1 grain per pound of PDF, which is not bad regarding the dynamic efficiency of your set-up (you’d see the power factor & dynamic efficiency increase if you used a heavier arrow, and decrease of you went lighter, which simply means you’d be absorbing more (or less) of the energy you spent drawing the bow – in the arrow).

By reproducing the performance of your set-up in this manner, you would effectively net the same “ballistics”, but I cannot speak (at this time as I haven’t tested) to the exact PDF you would need. My point is, you’d be storing a similar amount of energy to net a similar speed, no matter whether the PDF you ended up needing was a bit higher – or lower. You’d be doing the same “work”, although the characteristics of the draw force curve may be different, more to your liking, or maybe less to your liking, depending on your taste, and hence, your choice in cams and bow configuration. 

Said another way, when setting up a hunting bow, I completely disregard the ratio’s (AMO or IBO), and choose based on how I want the bow to shoot, and then just adjust it to get the speed I want (via PDF), no matter what the ratio ends up being. What that ratio ends up being is of no concern to me personally, as I don’t participate in any disciplines that limit the ratio allowed (ASA or IBO), so I can choose a bow based on other characteristics I feel are more conductive to good in field results (IMO), and also personal beliefs on ballistics (e.g. arrow weight and speed).

My taste changes w/ the season, and I change my set-up as it gets later and colder, to one that on paper would appear worse than my early fall set-up, but sitting in a tree in –30 poses it’s own set of problems that need addressed if you want to hit well when the time comes. 

I hope I haven’t completely clouded the issue, if I have, I’ll try again. 

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,

As Markus pointed out, the handle, for all the work that goes into it, looks essentially like a cast part…there is much inefficiency in machining to net something like this (especially w/ the small runs I do), for the sake of maybe a few air bubbles, but none the less, it is billet machined. It has also been pointed out to me (in private) by a couple that DO know, that my approach is very uneconomical, however, I am limited somewhat by what I’m trying to accomplish, and also by what I have to work with, I can say only this…I have investigated everything available to me with regards to manufacturing this part, and will continue to do so. I have more knowledge now regarding some of the questions I need to be asking my machinest, and will do so. Thanks to those two gentlemen who took the time…to help me. You make me believe “Archers helping archers” actually means something. 

Birds eye maple…now your talking!!! 

Jim.

PS: Pictures when I have the handles back. Hope you’re suitably impressed. JR.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Let me start off by saying that I think you are crazy. 

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately. Not about archery, but about business systems. The main thing I'm learning is that there are a ton of people with good ideas, but very few who know how to build a business system.

I have to ask the question: "Have you thought about the market you are selling into?" The archery marketplace is tiny. Targeting hunters over target archers is good because target archers are a tiny fraction of the archery marketplace. (Although target archers tend to buy new bows every year and are willing to own several bows where as hunters tend to own one bow and shoot it for years and years.) I don't have actual numbers but I'd guess that a huge percentage of bow hunters are middle and lower middle class in terms of how much they money make. From your posts I get the impression that you are a guide in Alberta which means you meet wealthy hunters who can afford to travel to Alberta to hunt. This skews your impression of the marketplace. If you look at the entire marketplace you'll find that it just won't support a $2000 bow.

You may point to the custom knife and gun market and say that there is a market for a $2000 bow. Well, yes, sort of. No one in their right mind takes a $4000 folding knife hunting. No one in their right mind takes a $10,000 gun hunting. They go into collections and are displayed in glass cases. Bows, especially a hunting bow, are a commodity item. There is a reason that the PSE Nova is the highest selling bow in existance. It's a decent hunting bow that you can buy in a complete package for about $300. From the standpoint of acuracy and quality it is a complete piece of junk. Because bows are a commodity item no one is going to pay $2000 for a bow to put in a display case. (I also get the impression you'd be hurt to know that one of your bows was never going to be used and would sit in a display case.)

Having said that I understand your desire to build the highest quality hunting bow available. I think you will agree that it is criminal to go into the field with a piece of junk bow that will not perform when needed. It makes me sick to think of the animals that are left to die becasue they have been shot well enough to be killed, but not well enough so that they can be tracked. 

To be honest I believe that you need to go back to the drawing board and come up with a design that can be built for less than $1000. That price point brings the bow into range of a much larger number of bow hunters. And if your bow is as good as you say it is, you have a moral imperitive to build your hunting bow. If for no other reason than so that people will harvest animals in the most humane way possible.

If you insist on trying to sell a $2000 bow here are a couple ideas that may help you along.

Develop a fitting system. I've been shooting for a year and a half and I shoot pretty well, but I have no idea if my bow fits me properly or not. You talk alot in your posts about building a bow to the customers specifications. Well I'd wager that 95% of the archery marketplace has NO IDEA what their REAL specifications actually are. A large part of the reason people give up archery is because they can't shoot well because their bow doesn't fit them properly. Develop a REAL fitting system so that people end up with a bow that fits them properly.

Add a target model. Target archers are known for spending any amount of money on anything that will potentially improve their score.

Work with Dave to build custom colors and designs. Dave has built some beautiful bows with strange limb woods and paint schemes. (No one hunts with these bows, but they do shoot them in tournaments.)

Get some pro endorsements. I understand you can't afford a top pro but it wouldn't hurt to have some top archers shooting your bow.


One last thing. I have a history of being a cynic and a pessimist. I remember back in the early 1990s finding this NCSA Mosaic browser thing, (back when there were only about 4 websites on the internet), and thinking that this web browser thing was stupid and would never go anywhere.  So I've been wrong in the past. Feel free to ignore me.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

> I hope I haven’t completely clouded the issue, if I have, I’ll try again.


Jungle, I think it's sinking in, albeit slowly... 

I'll summarize what I think is the jist of my understanding regarding what you are typing-

To shoot X requires Y of stored energy. You can shoot X with a bow that:

1- Peaks higher but doesn't hold it as long.
2- Peaks lower but holds it longer.

as both require the same amount of work from you to input the subsequently stored energy. The perceived difference in the work effort will vary by individual based on the Force Draw Curve of the cam system matches their physical makeup.

I understand the concept that one can manipulate draw weight to get similar speed. I can also see an easy FDC cam requiring 15# or so more pounds of draw weight to match some harder FDC cams output potential.

What I'm not sure of is what my perception of work effort would be between the two systems.

It makes sense to me to put most of the effort earlier in the FDC when one is utilizing the larger muscles, and is one thing I've always liked about Darton's CPS system. Unfortunately, they've just never offered a bow that fit my personal specs, although I gave them a hard hard look in the past. It doesn't help matters that there aren't many shops around here offering much of a selection past Mathews, Bowtech and Hoyt...


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi there bald mountain,

I thank-you for your comments, believe me, I look through them w/ great interest, and yes, even the not favorable ones, as my ongoing goal is simply to get better, in all things. 

I suppose the archery market place could be thought of as small, especially compared to some other industries. From the information I’ve been able to get, there could be as high as 4 million archers in N. America, not counting other continents, and as you say, most are bowhunters, w/ about 10% only shooting spots of some type or foam animals. Opinions vary, but there could be as many as 600,000 odd sales of new bows per year, my target represents 0.017% of annual sales across N. America, in fact, if given the choice, I don’t think I would want to get playing in the arena of the big boys. I’ll bet you right now, I get in more hunting day’s each year than ANY of them, it’s only a lifestyle choice, and I give up lots of creature comforts to do it.

There may be some confusion that I want to light the industry on fire, not so, just do more of what makes me happy. I’m trying to feel out my marketing approach, and you folks on AT are almost a perfect place to do it. I have had an overwhelming response in private, of words of support, and potential sales, if all turned out, my first run will be gone, gone, gone. That represents not quite a quarter of my first YEAR goals, so, I am already successful in my own mind (and at the end of the day that’s where it matters), beyond my wildest dreams.

Your right, this bow must never end up in a display case, but only in the field, hopefully with a grinning owner and a nice cleanly taken animal that they’re proud of. 

Regarding lost animals, I have seen peoples once in a lifetime dream hunts DESTROYED, because of a few seconds in time, and a poorly placed arrow. Some still remember those situations too me, several years later, it never goes away for real hunters. 

The fitting system is a good idea, but I somehow think most that will want this bow, will in fact – tell me how it needs to fit them. It would be difficult to expound on what some very talented archers on AT write about bows fitting well, I reference their comments, and others in magazines, video’s etc. all the time. I pick through them myself, extracting bits and pieces here and there, trying to always improve my shooting. Anyone who asked me would get my opinions, but I don’t offer it freely, as it’s such an individual sport. At times I post if I see something I’ve had first hand experience w/, and successfully overcame, but I’m by no means an expert bow shooter, heck, some of these guys spend many hours per day shooting (no wonder they can shoot ten thousand back to back x’s with bows I can’t even tune to my satisfaction!)

Pro endorsements, at the risk of sounding cocky, I don’t need to pay any pro to shoot my bow, you’d be surprised who I’ve consulted with on this design, and maybe who’s closet you’ll find a Moon in. 

At the end of the day, I’m working my plan as best I can, and, with any luck, and a bit of support, I’ll get there…isn’t there a saying about having tried and failed…

Jungle, 
(the consummate dreamer, living the dream)


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

I would add, too early in the force draw curve (or w/ low BH set-ups), can cause bad habits (IMO) w/ how you draw that can jeopardize a long healthy pastime of flinging arrows. A lot of this stuff is hard to figure out if you haven’t pushed yourself to the limits of your physical ability, I have, and I’ve hurt my body in the process.

Your example of the 15 lbs. PDF difference is possible; consider that stored energy is calculated at usually one-inch increments, so each inch that is higher weight is pounds that need to be made up somewhere else (assuming similar efficiency), although 15 lbs is likely an extreme example. Often times, one can gain a bit on stroke (without adversely affecting shootability) over what can be made to work acceptably w/ hard cams, offsetting the difference of PDF needed. I might be misleading by using the words “soft”, or “round”, cam design has come along way, and what’s soft today, may store as much energy as what was considered “hard” only a few years ago, with very little of the nastiness.

Many that use what could be considered hard cams do so for reasons not readily apparent, and that have nothing to do with stored energy, but rather let-off, valley, or lack of it, or some other characteristic they find desirable, not usually testing the limits of how fast they’ll go, and they’re usually combined with relatively mild geometry in other area’s.

I’m glad you’re thinking about storing energy, my main point.

Jungle.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jungle said:


> *(the consummate dreamer, living the dream) *


Excellent attitude. I'm jealous.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

> Many that use what could be considered hard cams do so for reasons not readily apparent, and that have nothing to do with stored energy, but rather let-off, valley, or lack of it, or some other characteristic they find desirable, not usually testing the limits of how fast they’ll go, and they’re usually combined with relatively mild geometry in other area’s.


Apparently you don't spend enough time on some of the forums I visit 

Typically I see people choosing set ups based on speed alone. The ones I see using the really fast IBO bows like the bowtech black knight often shoot it at 60#s, as they feel they can retain really good energy and speeds with an easier more manageable FDC. I rarely see discussion of the attributes you mention.

I talked myself out of buying a new bow this year by acknowledging the stored energy factor your talk about. I was intrigued by the smooth and easy draw with zero handshock/recoil of the Mathews Outback and Bowtech Freedom cammed bows (liberty and justice, and to a point the Patriot with INF cam), and actually got a chance to draw the bowtechs and shoot the outback. The outback is one smooth sweet shooter for sure. 

But, being a cheap bas, er, guy, I felt I owed it to myself to see what it would take to make my current bow perform similarly. First I backed the draw weight down to 62#s from 70#s to match the energy output of the others at 70#s. This alone made a big difference in perceived FDC effort and recoil/vibration. The outback still had a better just sit in your hand after the shot characteristic, but it's a 4.2ish# bare bow, mine is 3.2#s, so I added 1.1#s of lead fishing weights wrapped in black electrical tape to the lower section of my riser, down by my limb pockets, bringing my bare bow weight up to around 4.3#s. Result was my bow holds much steadier on target and has just a tad more recoil than the outback, which I attribute to the more parallel limb design of the outback.

Long story short, until they come up with a bow that draws easy and just sits there but also matches the energy level of my Diamond Hornet, I have no reason to spend money on a new hunting bow.

I also discovered something interesting that made me feel better about this whole process. I found that I only give up about 10 fps and 5#s of ke from shooting at 70#s versus 62#s, verified by my chrony. Out to 30 yards, there is negligible trajectory difference, but the bow is much easier to draw, which should lend itself well to all day sits in cold weather I'm looking forward to...


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

Your right about lots of the forums…I’ve read some of them, I’m talking about guys w/ credentials in the target arenas, that put their toes on the line, and their livings are dictated by a few sixteenths of an inch many yards downrange. Pretty hard to fudge that, bowhunting, well, that’s another story. I can tell you from experience, many that profess to be deadly in the woods, don’t turn out to be in practice, and in fact, real deadly guys in the bush, are pretty few and far between, and even they screw it up from time to time. Bowhunting is hard; you have to take what your read, here, in print, on movies, w/ a grain of salt. Nobody wants to appear foolish (me included), and we’re lead to believe that if ANYTHING goes wrong, there’s something wrong with us, because you just don’t read about it…mistakes that is. There is an image to uphold and all that jazz, but when it starts misleading folks and steering them down the garden path for sales… 

I only ever hunted a handful of guys per season, if you wanna hear the real horror stories, get a good African PH somewhere that he feels safe, and pick his brain. Some of them hunt and take hundreds of animals a season. It’s sobering I can assure you.

I’m going somewhere that will surely cause me trouble, so I digress. 

I’m glad your seeing through the hype w/ the new bow craze, a couple fps here and there is nothing, a good hunting bow should also tune in a handful of arrows, and stay in tune (at whatever speed you want), if it takes that 1 out of 6 perfect shots to yield a bullet hole, how’s it going to work when you’re all contorted and screwed up in the tree? I think you might have mixed a couple of the words in there that kind of change your meaning, but I’m pretty sure I follow you, there is seldom a substitute for out and out tack driving accuracy and forgivingness for most bowhunters.

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Gentleman,

I think I’ve said it somewhere before, well, it’s happened…three big crates got to the decorator’s facility, but only two were unloaded – the third it seems, has gone walk-a-bout, courtesy of UPS. I must respect the decorator’s efficiency w/ regard to set-ups, and so, they’re waiting for it to “get back” to them before proceeding. Sorry to those patiently waiting…

I am presently using the time to play w/ brace heights, this bow is torque free enough that I doubt anyone will have problems w/ the mid 7” range – planar arrow/string/sights at brace, w/ perfect bullet holes and carefree form tells me there’s something good here.

Photo’s – hopefully soon.

Jim.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Ouch! Hope they find the missing crate.

Looking forward to hearing some feedback from early adopters...


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## Urban_Redneck (Nov 8, 2003)

Your riser geometery looks similar (as does most of "new" VFT bows) to the original Oneida bows. Unlike the others, however, your statements remind me of Einstein when he said:

_"If I have seen further, it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"_ 

I'm a bow hack and I wish you well.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi baldmountain,

They haven’t actually lost it, just didn’t unload it, so, off it went to another UPS hub – LOUISVILLE, KY, then up to MINNEAPOLIS, MN, where it sets w/ the following message: AN INCORRECT ROUTING AT A UPS FACILITY CAUSED THIS DELAY;THE PACKAGE WAS MISSORTED AT THE HUB. IT HAS BEEN REROUTED TO THE CORRECT DESTINATION SITE 

The tracking page takes longer to scroll down than most posts on here! I’m starting to get a bit anxious 

I’ll take my luck w/ how they turn out! 

Urban *******,

Thank-you for the good wishes & kind words, the old Oneida was one of the bows that exhibited aiming and after shot characteristics I really liked! It played a major role in the weight forward design of the handle, and their opposed limb design has been around since at least 82. 

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello Gentleman,

An update on the status off the “Full” handles…

The last crate has arrived at the decorators…better late than never, on Oct. 22 @ 10:05 AM. I should know Monday morning what the time line is going to be on their end – or, more accurately, an approximation of what they anticipate happening. I’ll update as the info comes in.

With much of the 05 product lines now “out and about”, I realize that yet another year has came that the bowhunters out there have been neglected. If much of what I see is what today’s “bowhunters” want…I’m sad. Quite frankly, those of you that drop what you have for an advertised couple fps, IMO, need your heads examined. Those who grumble about the price of my bow (which incidentally – has changed)…probably spend more over a 2 year period on “faster” than you would buying one good bow and concentrating on your hunting & shooting, difference being, you’ll NEVER have something that works. You can call me an opinionated, elitist, SOB if you want, because, quite frankly, I am, and, my opinions are hard won.

Those of you that do know bowhunting will also know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the only thing that matters is your arrow being placed precisely to the upper heart/ mid lung area of an animal as it moves through your effective shooting area – or you move towards him, putting yourself near enough to your quarry to accomplish the same. You will also know just what it takes to accomplish this UNDER ACTUAL FIELD CONDITIONS, if you get all weak in the knees watching the latest and greatest hunting video’s, give me a break, I get weak in the stomach at the random shot placement…and the gall to actually produce, market, and sell this garbage. While good in-field results can be had w/ some of the gear out there, it’s often at the expense of a clean, simple set-up, ingredient # 2 in a good hunting set-up. If you DON’T subscribe to the KISS principle, it’s probably because there has never been an option out there that would allow for it. There is now.

While I may one day put together a bow that flat out screams, I sure as h*ll won’t be toting it as a hunting bow, but rather a play bow – or a competition - ratio limited bow, and it won’t sacrifice many of the characteristics that are essential for human use. 

For those bowhunters and target archers that dropped in hoping to see a picture, I apologize for finding only a rant & rave. I offer you this in lieu of photo’s, a run down of a few features on the Full model:

·	Billet – 3-D machined one piece riser
·	Integral limb pockets (no tolerance stacking)
·	2” x 16” FOC balanced inertia handle
·	Rigid – strong design – no cutouts or PDF limits
·	Hard anodize permanent finish – added strength and durability
·	No grains per pound limiting short draw archers
·	Smooth tangent radiuses throughout - for added strength
·	High reflexed design for added strength and maximized balance/aiming characteristics
·	Long riser for added inertia & to facilitate proper geometry
·	Unique cross sections throughout
·	Bomb proof construction
·	Machined in arrow guard
·	Full clearance arrow pass – for any broadhead
·	Full 8” x 1” sight window – offset the full length.
·	True on center grip, both planes, w/ conventional plunger position (or nearer center in many cases)
·	Tried and true grip geometry
·	Strong rigid grip area – where bows break!
·	Finely contoured hand to shelf transition for comfortable consistent hand placement and shooting
·	Cosmetically pleasing, unique “look”
·	Variable vertical sight mounting for proper pin/housing positioning
·	Trouble free internal vibration reduction system
·	High mass, the most intuitive vibration/noise dampening around
·	Stable – tack driving - timeless – geometry
·	Optimized cable rod positioning, vertically and horizontally.
·	Quality string/cable rigging – standard
·	Undoubtedly the most functional, adjustable, smooth, highly engineer cams to ever grace a compound
·	Ergonomically CORRECT draw force curves.
·	Consistent ESE over the range of DL’s offered.
·	High rates of dynamic efficiency over a broad range of arrow weights
·	Planar knock travel, both horizontally and vertically.
·	Smooth arrow launch @ any speed
·	Easily tuned w/ carefree form and shot execution
·	Highest quality limbs – standard
·	Flat – torsionally rigid, opposed recoil - limb mounting angle
·	Torque free throughout the stroke
·	In field take-down able, w/ 4” limb bolts
·	All stainless hardware
·	Different configurations available in after sale form, for the price of many “mart” bows.
·	Form and Function right out of the box.

This bow subscribes to 3 important LAWS in the hunting world, Mother natures, Murphy’s, and Newton’s.

If none of this means anything to you now, get back to me in a few years after you’ve…”been there and done that”, a while longer.

Now, this is what I call value for the dollar, period. No bells and whistles here, simply, the best hunting, or accuracy enhanced, archery bow made – bar none.

I don’t support race-cars or cowboys, but rather bowhunters, and accuracy conscious archers, in the form of a highly engineered bow, that represents high value for the dollar, and performance where it counts – in the field, because that my friend, will see our favorite pastime survive the test of time.

Join the society of those in the know…shoot a Moon.

Jungle.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

> · Ergonomically CORRECT draw force curves.


Jungle, given your comments in the Bowtech Equalizer thread, I was hoping you could elaborate on your above statement?

Sitting here imagining things, it seems logical to have most of the required effort early in the FDC, when one is using their larger muscles. If I recall, this is the specific FDC that Darton touts in their product catalouge, and I assumed your's would be the same since you use CPS cams.

However, my mind is a well functioning parachute...


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

Glad to hear your still kicking…I was starting to wonder if your bow blew to bits and took you out!!! 

IMO, it’s levers, plain and simple. You have more leverage as your elbow comes around than you do off of brace height. I don’t know about measuring devices and the likes, or what they prove, but try this:

Try one bow w/ a 6” BH, and another with similar PDF, and cam design, only w/ 8” BH, which draws easiest?

Try any bow with fingers vs. release…(many factors here, but the primary is effectively increased brace & later peak)

Try a hard cam that peaks early, then a soft that peaks mid, which is easiest?

Then try all of the above near a PDF that’s about all you can handle, which is easiest?

And last of all, try them when it’s –25 and your perched in a tree, and you can hardly touch your fingers together.

Anyone that’s done any of the above will agree with me. Using the force gauge argument would mean your average traditional shooter could rip the wheels right off of a high weight hard cam bow…not so.

I have set-up too many bows for those wishing to maximize the KE, and it’s never done with super high SE/PDF cams and the bows they go on. I have personally shot set-ups that produced well over 150# of KE with high speed / low dynamic efficiency arrows, way more when a heavy arrow was used. I can’t do that w/ hard cams. In fact, tuning becomes such an issue that hard cams peter out way back there somewhere.

You’re an inquiring mind, and this is all fairly intuitive when you stop and think about it for a minute.

I can only imagine that there is a design consideration here – or perhaps it’s just in the pursuit of ratio / low PDF attained speed. I hope the equalizers prove me wrong. Tell me this, why doesn’t Mathews put the highest ESE cams on their safari, or Bowtech on their heavy model – they’d surely store WAY more energy if that is the goal? I’ll tell you why, because VERY few could shoot them, and even fewer could tune them.

RE: The cams I’m using, you’re either not following my post, or testing me, because I’ve said before that I don’t use their highest ESE cams.

Jungle.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Jungle said:


> *Rangeball,
> 
> Glad to hear your still kicking…I was starting to wonder if your bow blew to bits and took you out!!!*


Not yet... 



> RE: The cams I’m using, you’re either not following my post, or testing me, because I’ve said before that I don’t use their highest ESE cams.
> 
> Jungle. [/B]


You give me WAY too much credit... 

Having no Darton dealer anywhere near me and know functional knowledge of their cam systems at all, I'm only going on what I've read about their FDC. I had no idea they had different cams available, I thought each new version of their cams was simply mild improvments that maintained the same FDC as the previous versions, and the speeds they generated came from bow configuration...

Do you have any FDC graphs of the cam system you plan to use? I've seen the one Darton puts in their catalouge, and it peaks early then slowly falls to the wall, similar to the FDC Bowtech seems to be describing. Seeing a pic of what you are describing would be worth a million words to me...


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Jungle said:


> *Rangeball,
> 
> Glad to hear your still kicking…I was starting to wonder if your bow blew to bits and took you out!!!*


Not yet... 



> RE: The cams I’m using, you’re either not following my post, or testing me, because I’ve said before that I don’t use their highest ESE cams.
> 
> Jungle. [/B]


You give me WAY too much credit... 

Having no Darton dealer anywhere near me and know functional knowledge of their cam systems at all, I'm only going on what I've read about their FDC. I had no idea they had different cams available, I thought each new version of their cams was simply mild improvments that maintained the same FDC as the previous versions, and the speeds they generated came from bow configuration...

Do you have any FDC graphs of the cam system you plan to use? I've seen the one Darton puts in their catalouge, and it peaks early then slowly falls to the wall, similar to the FDC Bowtech seems to be describing. Seeing a pic of what you are describing would be worth a million words to me... 

In a nutshell, are you saying an FDC that peaks mid to late will be perceived as easier to draw than one that peaks early?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

I’m saying that not only is a later peak easier to draw for any given PDF, but in fact, you can safely handle more PDF by drawing it later, thereby ultimately storing as much or more energy that way.

Further, I’m saying in this manner, a bow can be shot at similar speeds to the hard bows without the nasty touchiness; it’s building power a better way.

One more for you…I also maintain your better to never jeopardize a smooth DF – even if that means dropping the BH down a bit to help in making up for lost energy in the curve. Hard cams are always harder to tune to a given arrow speed, and will always be harder to get planar knock travel out of on both planes. Nothing wrong with using a fast arrow if that’s what you believe in, but there IS a difference in how you build the power needed. Here’s an analogy for you – think a “camed out” (pun intended) blown 350 to build 500 horse, vs making 500 horse w/ a mild 502, then compare hunting and accuracy to longevity and smooth touble free service. Hotrods are good for Friday night runs up and down main street, or racing – not work.

Darton has made dozens of cams; covering a broad range of tastes as for ESE, and in conjunction w/ different bow configurations, offer a broad range of SE/PDF’s. If I’m not mistaken, I think they offered at least 3 or 4 different cam configurations in 04. Their high-energy storing models are designed to compete in the ratio oriented world, and they do it as well, or better than anyone’s, they have never brought a bow to market that wasn’t relatively easy to tune. There are some nice single cams out there, but what they gain in simplicity, they give up in adjustability, a CPS can be adjusted for perfect string take-up for different grip types (high / low wrist) and rest positions (relative to the axles) amongst many other desirable characteristics. They offer a customizability (is that a word?) that is advantageous for many - that way inclined.

Sorry, I don’t have any data I can post for you right now, I will have that type of information made available later. I am all for figuring out what an archer needs or wants ballistics wise, and then putting together the best bow to produce that. It requires a different way of looking at stored energy, but this is the way to make the best shooting bow possible - at any speed. Two (2) different cams offer customization to suit the shooters preferences, and down the road, more limbs will offer further configurations and options for storing energy. This bow, the cams, the handle, is not just “dreamed” up (although it was following one that brought it to market), this isn’t some marketing ploy - it a highly refined system of components that together, make archers shine. There’s a purpose to every line on the bow, every component – and NONE of it is marketing, and nothing was compromised in the design, hence the price.

Jim.


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

Do you have a website?


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Thanks Jungle. 

I tried to download a pic of the FDC graph of the Bowtech PFSC on my Diamond bow, but since the diamond sale to Bowtech, their website's down 

GRIV just posted this Nitrous Cam(s) FDC graph in another thread, which if I'm understanding your explanations correctly seems to be shaped like you are saying?











So, in a nutshell, if one is shooting a 384 grain arrow at 278 fps with a 62# draw weight Hard single cam, how much more weight would they need to draw to shoot the same arrow at the same speed with a cam such as you're describing? 10# more?

And would the percieved effort to draw both set ups be pretty much the same, since I think you are saying in essence energy in equals energy out?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Orions Bow,

Yes, in fact I’m working on it right now. It’s not ready yet, but I’ll post a link when it is. I like your Fred Bear quote, you may like my site – even if you don’t like the bow – I’m old school. 

Rangeball,

Martin makes good cams – shootable cams. What do they have in common w/ Darton – perhaps it’s that they’ve been in the industry for MANY years – and have the confidence to go somewhat against the grain for the betterment of unknowing archers. Don’t think for a second any of these guys couldn’t design a cam/bow to re-write the ratios – they have a reputation to uphold that obviously means something to them.

Your question about how much more PDF you’d need to equal your performance w/ a harder set-up has so many variables it would be difficult to give you an answer that was worth the time to type out. Suffice to say, it would be on a slider – that is, the more you leaned towards forgiving, the higher you’d need to go in PDF. I suspect if you went up a full 10 pounds in PDF, you would get a very sweet shooting set-up overall to net the same speeds. Would you be able to draw it? IMO, not only would you draw it easier, you’d be at less risk of wrecking your shoulders, or elbow, as often happens w/ sustained PDF bows. Keep in mind that what works against energy storage (lower DF over most of the curve) works for your body until you have proper leverage in your favor to handle higher weight.

If you’re a hunter like me, I can guarantee you the deer aren’t going to stop you and check your PDF and weigh your arrow. AMO & IBO RATIO’S ARE BUT ONE MEASURE OF A BOWS PERFROMANCE, and IMO, the least important one at that (unless you use them to tell you how far from good your going). There’s too much to be sacrificed in chasing ratio’s if you’re a bowhunter. Heck, even forgiving bows IBO in the high 200’s, what more do you need?

Those who scream IBO simply haven’t done enough hunting to know any better, and don’t realize there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Jim.


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

Thanks for the fast reply. Naturally I am interested in any new product coming out. I look forward to seeing moreinformation on your bow when it gets out. I like the look of the riser & will be curious to see the final product once it is completed. 

Good Luck!


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Jungle, which specific Darton CPS cam are you using? I'd like to peck around a bit to see if I can come up with an FDC graph of it to get a better visual.

Thanks for all your posts and answers...


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Rangeball,

you are trying to get an idea about the IBO rating somehow, don't you? 

Jungle,
I don't think that a hard cam is harder to tune than a soft cam or wheel.
Tuning I understand as a process which has a straight arrowflight at its end.
Imo, there are two major factors when constructing/engineering a bow and/or cam.
First the cam lean and limb torsion during the draw cycle must be as small as possible to minimize the string oscillation.
Lowest manufacturing tolerances between axles and bushings........ and cable grooves which are not too long (string and cable groove relation) need to get engineered to achieve that.

The second, maybe most important factor, is the kind of acceleration, means the part of the FDC from fulldraw to peakweight.
A perfect linear increasing FDC, for example exactly 5lbs. per inch from the holding weight to the peak weight will cause a linear pressure to the arrows spine.
Many cams are far away from a perfect linear acceleration and give the archer a hard time to tune his bow.
They accelerate maybe 5lbs. within the first inch then only 2 lbs. within the second, 6lbs. in the third inch etc....just not linear.

That causes an unsteady deflection<=>reflection of the arrow shaft and a lot of stress to the archer.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

> Rangeball, you are trying to get an idea about the IBO rating somehow, don't you?


Of the Moon bow? Not at all... 

Seriously, I believe Jungle when he says it will shoot whatever one wants it to based on the PDF chosen.

I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of what different shape FDCs bring to the table as far as perceived effort to draw. 

It would seem FDCs come in basically 4 shapes-

1- Round type wheels/cams, which gradually ramp up to peak then gradually drop to the wall.

2- Those that quickly build to peak early in the FDC, maintain it a bit then gradually drop to the wall, like what I understood Darton's to be and it sounds like the new Bowtech cam will be.

3- Those that gradually build to hit peak later in the draw, maintain it a bit then quickly drop to the wall, which sounds like the FDC Jungle is describing.

4- Those that quickly build to peak, maintain it quite a bit then quickly drop to the wall.

Pound for Pound, #1 is the "slowest" and #4 is the "fastest", with #3 and #4 a toss up. I'm trying to get a feel for why #3 will promote an easier drawing experience even when set at a higher weight than #4 to result in identical energy/speed transfer to the arrow.

I wanna be really really confident in my next bow purchase


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

> I'm trying to get a feel for why #3 will promote an easier drawing experience even when set at a higher weight than #4 to result in identical energy/speed transfer to the arrow.


Sounds a bit strange to me either.

One of my best hunting buddies is a physiotherapeut (term?spell?), just somebody who is helping injured people to regain their former strength and health.
I respect his opinion and knowledge very much and he told me that due to the humans body constitution (bones & muscles) it's much better to draw a bow/cam which works like your #2.
The closer the arm-shoulder-movement comes to full draw the less weight the archer can handle properly.
That's why I love the invention of the let-off.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Pictures?


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Of what?

FDCs or Dugga's Friend?


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Of the Damn bow that is being talked about. I mean I am anxiously awaiting the pictures. When are they gonna be posted!!!!?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi Duggaboy,

You put forth a very complicated argument to respond to, and likely no matter what I said, it would not change your thinking on this issue…as your findings are no doubt a product of your experiences, as are mine.

If you find hard cams tune as easily as soft cams, I respect that, there are no doubt others that feel the same as you do, however this has not been my experience. Instead, I have found them to be more critical of arrow spine, more difficult to tune, and decidedly more difficult to keep in tune. In addition, I have also found them more critical to use under field conditions where form is seldom as controlled. I have never shot the cams that I think you are referring to. 

I agree with the importance of cams that do not lean as you come to full draw, and twin cams have a decided advantage here, with split yolks stabilizing both limbs, having said that, my experience has been that synchronization becomes a major factor in high energy storage twin cams.

I also agree that smooth arrow launch and a high tolerance to arrow spine are desirable characteristics. My experiences have shown me that this is achieved by using a cam that draws smoothly, and drops into the valley smoothly, as these same forces are applied back to the arrow upon release, minus dynamic hysteresis. I have found the difference to be so overwhelming, that I could actually surpass the performance I got with hard cams, by using a somewhat milder cam set to store similar (or more) energy, with arrow spine and energy storage being the limiting factor. The first couple of inches after release seem to be particularly important as you stated.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

I have not broken it down as far as you have in analyzing cams, I simply mean a decreased dwell at PDF that comes on later (not strait off of brace), a smooth drop to the valley is important. In this manner it can go higher if need be.

Duggaboy,

I respectfully disagree with your friend, as your upper drawing arm leaves the surface of your chest on it’s way back, is when you have the least leverage, your leverage on the string is increased as your upper arm becomes perpendicular with your chest. Many injuries result from trying to pull big weight off of brace, especially short brace, and injuries also occur in the bow arm/elbow, from using it in conjunction with the drawing arm to overcome this disadvantaged starting point. This is also in part why some draw from high, different muscles are used, which also aids in getting weight started. 

Mad,

It’ll be a couple of weeks away yet.

Jim.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Jungle,
I can not follow your explanations about FDC. 

Maybe it's my lacking English, maybe I have to see/draw that kinda cam myself.


> I respectfully disagree with your friend, as your upper drawing arm leaves the surface of your chest on it’s way back, is when you have the least leverage, your leverage on the string is increased as your upper arm becomes perpendicular with your chest. Many injuries result from trying to pull big weight off of brace, especially short brace, and injuries also occur in the bow arm/elbow, from using it in conjunction with the drawing arm to overcome this disadvantaged starting point. This is also in part why some draw from high, different muscles are used, which also aids in getting weight started.


Yours and my friends statements are no contradiction if you look closely. I was not talking about the bow arm, just about the other one. About bow arm in your statement I definitely agree.
But surely you already have seen someone (non-archer) trying to pull a bow with much too high drawweight. Those guys get the string to approx. half draw anytime but always fail pulling the last inches. That's what I was talking about.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Duggaboy,

Regarding the FDC, I think I am becoming misleading to you and Rangeball. Rangeball has broken it down much more than I would for the purposes here, in it’s simplest form, a cam that peaks for only 2 or 3 inches vs. one that peaks for 5 or 6 – or more (please don’t take these numbers literally – it’s all relative, many cams peak for 7 or more inches, and in that case a 5 inch peak would seem round). By nature a short dwell cam has a smoother slope to PDF, and a smoother slope to the valley – this is my point. To go one step further, I am also saying that by shortening the dwell (and usually positioning it mid cycle in the process) you can also handle more actual peak weight, thereby making up for the lost energy over a more sustained (higher ESE) cam.

I will try to find something to graphically shows what I am talking about, and how I prefer to store energy.

I understand your statement about the non-archer, yes I have seen this, but couldn’t it be more about the actual peak weight than the position of the weight? Depending on the bow, it’s very likely that to get it off of brace only took a few pounds, and he actually failed simply because he reached the peak weight – which was too much? Maybe not, I don’t know. 

I make this controversial observation about peak weight, knowing that some will disagree, however, I stand behind my statements, because I have tested this to the outer limits of my physical ability (and applied my findings to many others), and when you are near the maximum of what you can handle, where the weight comes on is VERY important, and by testing in this fashion, I have improved all of my hunting bows by using similar cams set at slightly higher peak weight to equal the stored energy of a harder – less PDF cam (netting the same SE). Similarly, as cold weather sets in and I do more tree stand hunting, I de-tune my set-up to the smoothest of cams, AT LOWER WEIGHT, so that cold stiff muscles can still handle a smooth draw – however these set-ups do net less energy than my warm weather foot-hunting set-up. 

I have demonstrated this “phenomena” to Olympic caliber sports medicine doctors, who, also said the theory was flawed (this came about from me overcoming inflamed tendons in my bow arm elbow, and same side clavicle – which they were “advising” me on). I can assure you it is not. It was originally related to me by a Dr. in S Africa, who used this method to tune his bows for the big 5. In his case, he removed what I thought were smooth cams, and replaced them with what were essentially target wheels, thereby storing more energy, with a less finicky set-up. He was/is a big powerful man and could draw anything he wanted with any cam, but yet chose to use those stated to minimize the chances of damaging his body, and to maximize the good shooting characteristics. I think this has a lot to do with how the energy is transferred to the arrow, as you say.

The language barrier is frustrating, I agree.

Jim.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

> I will try to find something to graphically shows what I am talking about, and how I prefer to store energy.


Jungle, that would be MOST helpful, although I think I have a better understanding of what you seem to be describing, which sounds most like the option #1 cam I specified above, more of a traditional Energy wheel type cam that gradually ramps up to peak mid draw, maintains it a bit then equally gradually ramps down to the wall.

I wish I still had the Bowtech Freedom Cam graph pic, as that is pretty much exactly what it looked like.

The only Darton FDC pic I've ever seen moved the peak early in the draw cycle, hence my confusion.


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

Will this pic help anybody out? It's for the hoyt cams, but I was wondering if it would help this discussion out. 

Stinky sitting quitely in the corner observing.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

Here’s some dope for you, the first curve 60/30 – SE = 1

The second curve 60/30 – SE = 0.995

The third curve 70/30 – SE = 1.028

Don’t mind the units, you can convert those to whatever you want.

Hope you get the idea. Find something w/ a freedom cam (I’ve never played w/ that one) that’ll crank into whatever, and try for yourself.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Stinky,

Thanks, I found something that already had the higher weight smooth curve plotted before I saw your post.

Jim.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Jungle, which graph is the one you are fond of, Left, Middle or Right?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rangeball,

It must be way clearer in my head, than what I'm able to convey on here.

The right one.

Jim.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

You're doing fine. My computer keeps locking up on me. My response above was supposed to include "The graph on the right is the one you prefer, correct?"

No idea why it wasn't included...


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Hmmm... Being a target shooter I have to say taht the one on the right looks like the one that is going to yank my arm out of the socket when I try to let down.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Baldmountain,

You’ll want to buy a bow w/ hard cams on it then.

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

Who was I to try and think I could overcome millions of marketing dollars. Many obviously take what they read verbatim.

The two cam styles I offer cover the range of taste nicely, in what I feel comfortable saying will work better in human hands.

I must be a stupid businessman (no- don't comment) – I should have offered a set of screamers on there – for you folks that know better.

This conversation is going nowhere, follow the post backwards, and you’ll see my position on this topic.

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hey, I might just do that – if that’s what the boys want…it’s only a phone call away (the cams that is) – and believe me, with this handle I could put together something that will flat out smoke!

I’m getting this all figured out!

Jungle.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Most of the reason I got clear of the guiding business, was I got sick of caressing the ego’s of those that “knew” what they were doing – spending half the hunt following up wounded animals – while they moaned about getting back in the tree for another stab at it.

Sick really, but I do like the idea of “complimenting” the line-up with a “hard” – fits in rather nicely with soft and medium…for you HARD folks out there.

There’s my rant for the day.

Jungle, over and out.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Whoa Jim,

I was just looking at the graphs and the oone on the right seems like the steepest peak. I was guessing that coming back over that peak when letting down would be tough. I'm guessing. I don't have any REAL experience so I could be completely wrong.

And yes, you are right. We have been heavily marketed too.  We're desperate for good scores and willing to PAY! 




Jungle said:


> *Baldmountain,
> 
> You’ll want to buy a bow w/ hard cams on it then.
> 
> Jungle. *


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

Bald, the draw force gradually rises to peak then gradually lowers into the letoff with the curve on the right. If you creep a bit, the most of the weight won't hit you untill several inches from the letoff. You'll definately be ready for it. The other ones are the ones to look out for if you're worried about loosing your arm. The peak weight is closer to the left-off, kicking in sooner than the others and causing arm removal.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Doh! Serves me right for opening my big fat mouth when I have no idea what I'm talking about. 

Thanks for straightening me out!



stinky1 said:


> *Bald, the draw force gradually rises to peak then gradually lowers into the letoff with the curve on the right. If you creep a bit, the most of the weight won't hit you untill several inches from the letoff. You'll definately be ready for it. The other ones are the ones to look out for if you're worried about loosing your arm. The peak weight is closer to the left-off, kicking in sooner than the others and causing arm removal. *


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## ToddM (May 30, 2003)

As for a $2000 bow not selling I think that's nonsense. Certainly not to your average bowhunter, but lets face it Jungle is not marketing to your average bowhunter, because your average bowhunter is shooting 20lbs too much and 3" of a draw too long and would never understand the differences anyway.

Look at how many people on the boards (granted a more archery addicted lot) own swarovski and other binoculars costing $1000+ and don't even blink about it. Your average hunter does not spend that kind of money and most of them can't understand why anyone would spend $1500 on a binoculars, and yet leica/swarovski/zeiss all seem to be doing just fine.

Some of those features are spendy. I can tell you from first hand experience having some custom knives coated, that hard anodized coatings are expensive, and they blow away typical anodizing as far as scratch resistance and durability.

A custom fit system and certainly good marketing are imporant but I believe the market certainly can support it. Especailly if a target model and a reasonable marketing are put behind it.

If you look at other markets, take optics again, it's nothing to drop $1000 on a rife scope these days, a lot of people spend more on the optics than the rife. I'm not saying that's a mistake I just don't think $2000 is a big deal in the hunting world for the seriously dedicated to spend on a bow.

As for not taking expensive guns in the field, Perazzi makes and sells hunting guns and target guns all day, you can't touch one of them new for under $8K and they go up to over $100K depending on engraving. They seem to do great business every year at nationals. In fact a couple of the new smaller companies are booming on the trap scene and their guns start at $12K +. Lots of people take old parkers, and perazzi's and custom brownings etc. into the field. I know lots of guys that spend way more than $2k on a custom varmit rifles and they don't sit behind glass on a wall.

Heck look at cycling, it's nothing these days to drop $2000 on a mid line road/mountain bike, and a serious race bike can easily hit $4000+. Lots of companies making custom bike frames that start at $2000 and stay in business just fine. 

I can see a person definately wanting to make sure that this bow offers more to them individually more than a $700 bow does, but really people $2000 is nothing in the shooting sports. I know archers that have darn near that much $ in releases or arrows. I don't see the big deal about spending it on a bow.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

ToddM,
you're absolutely right. I look at it the same way.

My second hobby is downhill mountainbiking. 
I'm too old now to continue competitive racing but I love to spend a weekend on the tracks in the bike park almost as much I love to hunt.
I've built my (last) bike out of parts from different manufacturers and I had a clear goal: 
It should last at least the next ten years. 
That doesn't sound much but due to my weight of 250lbs. and the "material eating" way of riding, a downhill bike normally lasts not longer than one or two summers.
So selecting the different parts, inclusive some custom made stuff made my bike up to EUR 5,500 (US$ 7,000). I never regret that expense.

Buying cheap means buying twice or three times or four.........depending how fast the guy will gonna learn.

As somebody who is familiar with manufacturing costs I know that a few but maybe crucial details on the product will double the price. Just looking at the riser makes clear where the main costs are involved. I don't think $2K is too much for the whole bow.


..................although I still don't have a clue about that FDC thing.


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## ToddM (May 30, 2003)

Duggaboy,

Yep I'm luck enough to race road and mtn (XC) for my college team and we have some sponsors so that helps out but like you said if you really build a bike right, it's nothing to hit $5000+ I know my last all mountain/freeride bike that I built had to be pushing $3500 and that's sponsorship cost, but it's exactly how I want it, and I don't worry about it breaking. Sure things can still go wrong but every part is what I wanted, and I hope it lasts at least 5 years. I know people that just like archery, they buy a new $2500 bike every other year, cause it's not what they wanted or it doesn't stand up.

I mean really how many guys do we know in archery that buy 2-3 bows every year, because they aren't happy with them or aren't quite what they want, or have gone through 10 different kinds of releases trying to find one they like, or sights etc. etc. Not that either of those things are bad, trial and error is how you find out what works, but cost wise it's expensive too.

If this was the bow that really did it for you, and fit exactly what you wanted, $2000 is no big deal.

If you want to complain about the price of something, try fiber optic that sell for $10 for 3 6" strands, or release rope for $5 for 6" or those $12 cable guard slides, stuff that costs pennies to manufacture and sells for hundreds of percent of markup, if not thousands.

As important as bow fit is, I'm actually very surpized there are not more pure custom build shops out there. You take almost any other shooting sport and the high end target market is almost entirely built on small custom makers building exactly what the shooter wants for a high price.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

I'm not saying that it is impossible to sell a $2000 bow. I'm just saying that the number of people available and willing to buy a $2000 bow is tiny. (The pool of bicyclists is larger than the pool of archers and I've yet to see a $4000 bike anywhere other than a bike shop.)

Having read the rest of the posts in this thread I think Jim is going to be OK. He was able to get the price down a bit and seems to have sold all of his first run of bows.

I've never met Jim but from reading his posts, and from PMs, I believe he knows what he is doing and is a genuinely nice guy. I'm rooting for him big time.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Hi Jim,

Any more info yet? How are the bows coming together? (You've been quiet lately, or are you busy hunting?  )


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Geoff,

It’s called TESTING…not hunting (that’s what I’m telling my wife anyway). 

The handles are in the polishing stage, they expect to be shipping back to me next week. (Heard that before too!). I’m at the mercy of many things outside of my control; hopefully it won’t be too much longer.

Correspondence on AT has suffered, as I have lots of things on my list every day – and usually not enough hours to get them done. If I get the bow right, I will have something worth talking about, and more time to talk about it.

Jim.


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## bohntr (Jun 3, 2002)

people thought we were nuts when we started paying $1000+ for bows. Well I have always thought you get what you pay for, but you would have to be on glue to pay $2000+ for any bow. Thats a nice down payment on a new Quad. Things are getting out of hand.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Bohntr,

Don’t give up on your “getting what you pay for” – you maybe just aren’t used to having so much available in a bow. 

– Paying 6 or 8 grand on a 4-wheel toy…. I’d sooner walk and carry a good bow – in fact – I do. Your quad analogy shows a range of prices, models, and features, which cover the normal spectrum. From there the sky’s the limit if you want exotic – this bow only lands in a different place because it is different. Just as you would expect features on a high dollar vehicle of any type to net something more…this bow, well, it’s that far out of the realm of normal – you know it isn’t going to shoot the same – can’t – the question remains – better or worse – physics or marketing? If you get by fine with what you use, good, but the option is there for those that want more.

The only thing out of hand is your average bowhunters perception of what it takes to get the job done. 

Jim.


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## ToddM (May 30, 2003)

Bottom line is if you get far enough into any hobby you can spend a TON of money. 

I know guys that put more than $1000 into just the exhaust of their motorcycles, and the trailer they have to put it on, and the truck they need to two it where they are going to ride it. Ask a harley shop how many thousands of dollars (yes thousands) of chrome accessories they sell with EACH harley. Chrome parts that do nothing functional, yet it's not uncommon to see $2-3K of them on a harley.

You can spend $100K on a shotgun, you can spend silly amounts of money on anything.

$5000 on a bicycle
$4000 on golf clubs (btw golf is a waste of a good walk) 
nearly $2000 on a pair of binoculars
$5000 on a camera

Frankly I think the fact most bows, even top line ones sell for less than $1000 is pretty impressive. It just boils down to your priorities. I mean really if you really just love archery what's $2000 for a bow. 

How many people do you know that have a $40K truck that in 5 years will be worth $15K (if they are lucky). Talk about a bad investment, loosing $25K in 5 years on a vehicle but tons of people do it everyday. It's their priority to drive a big new truck.

In fact concidering you can probably set up a pro level competiton bow for under $2000 I'd be tempted to give archery the title of cheapest shooting sport period, and I guarantee it's the cheapest shooting sport to shoot a whole year competatively. ($800 bow, $400 sight, $100 rest, $150 in arrows, $100 release, $150 stabilzier, you're there under $2000). On top of that you don't have to buy ammo or pay huge tournament fees. Try shooting trap competativley it will cost you $300 a weekend in fees alone, much less shells. On that topic fees and shells at nationals for trap will cost you over $2000 for the whole event. 

I mean I'd rather put $5k in a bicycle than $500 into a golf club set, because I don't like golf it's not my thing. So if you try to sell me a $4000 golf club set, I'm going to laugh at you like you were insane. I won't even mention a lot of people that play golf probably drop $2k in fees a year just to play, our local course is $50 everytime you want to play 18 holes. Can you imagine your local archery club charging $50 to shoot a round of practice?

While I might not spend $2000 on a bow I wouldn't consider it out of line for someone that considers it's advantages worth the extra money. That bearly covers the cost of the frame alone on my mountain bike, or the price of my binoculars or spotting scope, and it doesn't even cover the price of a new stock and forearm on my perazzi, much less the rest of the gun. How many people drop that in the bar every year, or at mc donalds, or their cell phones. Priorities that's all it boils down to.

I think the archery world certainly has room for a custom level $2000 bow. In fact if someone started a small company that would do true custom fit options such as riser length and offer custom limb lengths to cover all the bases I bet a lot of top end archers would pay more than $2000 for one.


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

I've kind a got mixed feelings, but I will withhold any negative crticism and say I wish you all the best and much success.

Success for any individual in archery is a success to the sport as a whole.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Pictures?


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

Hey Jungle, any pictures yet? 

Are you planning a shoot through riser? I think you would have the most stable riser if you did, however, you may not need it with the I-Beam construction. How is the tourque at full draw?

Some pictures would b nice.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rat,

Sorry, no pictures yet. 

I don’t have any plans on a shoot through riser, although I like the idea. This riser is very stiff.

The torque is minimal, the bow tunes in a hand full of arrows with relaxed form, and when tuned and sighted in, arrow / sting / sight are all planar…nothing much is happening between brace and full draw. 

Purposely torquing it while at full draw is not easily done; the bow resists shooter-induced torque very well. It easily delivers arrows to the point of aim, you quickly gain confidence in it to trust the sight pin as a point of impact indicator, and yes, especially while hunting, which is the real test.

It’s not touchy on whether you squeeze, or punch, and back tension variations don’t show a distinct hot and cold. Left and rights are absent. It aims exceptionally well, and is balanced beautifully. With this bow you can fake it when you can’t make back tension, and still aim surprisingly steady, punch it, and hit (for those time you gotta get rid of the arrow ). It’s not just the mass, but where it is that enhances the aiming. By moving the weight out and away from the hand the moment arms are increased, and in my case, the bow is simulataneously balanced because of the reflex design. The bow has zero reaction in hand to the shot, and while that doesn’t directly benefit accuracy, the same inertia that resists movement after the shot, also helps during the aiming and releasing phases of the shot. 

It changes the whole perspective and experience when you feel confident in your shooting. That’s what this bow does. If you’ve ever had a good run…you know what I’m talking about. 

To me, top of the line is as much about actual function, as it is about cosmetics. Have your glory where you want it; I’ll take mine with turning shot oppertunities into results. ( BTW - it looks wicked to!) 

Jim


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

*a different drummer*

I may never own one of your bows(I'm getting older and unless I hit the lottery, fixed income is in my future somewhere), but I admire your desire to build something RIGHT, at least from what you believe to be right. Price? If I had the money, to buy a person's dream, rather than some mass-produced schlock, I would do it every time. John DeLorean made some major mistakes, but before that look at the Nova and the GTO. He redefined muscle cars. Everybody wants NICE, but they hate to pay for it. Wish I were young again, I'd work two jobs for a coupla months, buy one and hunt my brains out. Any chance for a Senior discount like them Canadian Pharmacies?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Tautog Rich,

The price is not good, I know. It is not cheap to be able to say “uncompromising design” …and mean it. 

I had very cold feet knowing the rough costs involved as I moved forward with the prototype…the design combined that many things, I really didn’t trust that they would all net what I felt the potential was. Does 1 + 1 + 1 = 3…I don’t know, my math’s been all screwed up since last years add campaigns… 

Seeing the first handle sucked me in, I admit, but I made the real decision to move forward @ whatever price after the first 3 aimed shots of the tuned prototype, and after 2 dozen shots, I was trotting back and forth to the target with a dumb grin on my face.

I was quite prepared to walk away and chalk it up to experience if it hadn’t been more than a cosmetic stunt.

You had me thinking w/ the seniors thing…I have some personal issues w/ how seniors are treated on a whole. I would definitely figure something out for a senior…I hadn’t thought of that.

On pharmacies and drugs, I’m not sure how it would be classified…either as anxiety or panic disorder medication…or perhaps something more intoxicating…maybe even a psychoactive substance…either way, I don’t want the hassles at the border.  

Jim.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jungle said:


> *Seeing the first handle sucked me in, I admit, but I made the real decision to move forward @ whatever price after the first 3 aimed shots of the tuned prototype, and after 2 dozen shots, I was trotting back and forth to the target with a dumb grin on my face.
> *


Dood, you're killing us. (I know, it's not up to you.  )



Jungle said:


> *You had me thinking w/ the seniors thing…I have some personal issues w/ how seniors are treated on a whole. I would definitely figure something out for a senior…I hadn’t thought of that.
> *


Yeah me too. It's heart breaking to see how most people treat seniors. Even their own parents. My mom passed away this summer from complications due to alzheimer's. When I'd go visit her at the rest home, (she needed 24 hour care because of how far the desiese had advanced and my dad couldn't take care of her), it was sad to see how many seniors seemed to be abandoned to the rest home. When I'd bring the kids in to visit, all the seniors would come running to visit with the kids. 

Most seniors have so much to teach us. They also have some really good stories if you are willing to take the time to listen.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

I live in a country where they spend twice as much feeding prisoners, as they do seniors.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

It's the result of government health care. Once they reach a certain age, seniors are expendable so why waste further resources on them...

At least prisoners have a chance of being rehabilitated and becoming productive members of society so they can contribute to the tax base...


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

A friend passed on an analogy...and now there's the perfect pair for the equation.


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

*It's okay*

Ya ain't gotta do something/anything for me. I was just thinkin' generally for guys/gals who is reachin "that" age. Forget the pharmacy thingie---it was an analogy, guy! Hell, I grew up in the 60's I can do for myself if I have to! (HA!)


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Rangeball said:


> *It's the result of government health care. Once they reach a certain age, seniors are expendable so why waste further resources on them...
> 
> At least prisoners have a chance of being rehabilitated and becoming productive members of society so they can contribute to the tax base...
> 
> *


I think that your seniors comment is a bit foolish to be honest. Most of the health care wasted in this country (Canada) is on smokers, drinkers and people with bad habits like that. (Obesity leading to heart disease). Anyways, they've raised the taxes on cigarettes which I agree with totally. Now if they'd just lower the taxes on gas.

My Uncle in great britain is 90 and he still drives and he's part of a choir and he owns an estate. He was a teacher now retired and was in the Royal Navy during WW2. People like him are not expendable. They have vast knowlege. The fact that he's still smart as a whip is more the reason to have people like him around.

People who abuse their bodies and or the system. Drug Addicts, Smokers, 500 pound couch potatoes are the not expendable either. But they sure as heck could do to clean up their act. As could prisoners. Some people just learn how to use the system and they never get a job, and move around living on welfare, partying and squelching every cent they can out of people around them. They are not productive and could use a smack. Think about it for a moment. 


On another note. I am looking foward to seeing pictures of your bow Jim. 

Dylan


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

PICTURES!!! J/K JUNGLE!  This is worse than Christmas! I haven't been this jazzed about a new bow in a long time.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Dylan, I agree with everything you said. My comments were very sarcastic, yet a reflection of the statistics I've seen on the rationing of health care to seniors in countries with government controlled health care.

My grandpa is 90, still has a good mind and a will to do lot's, but his body is starting to work against him. It really really sucks...


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

My Uncle had a hip replacement years ago and he's still motoring around. Last year he went to Ireland for a trip on a boat at 90 years young. Told my mum he wished it was more choppy (the water). Typical ole navy guy I guess. Likes to talk about world affairs and global warming, right down to my family in Britain. Great to hear my Uncles voice cause my Opa (Uncle Cliffs) brother passed when I was about 9. Cliff sounds a bunch like my Opa did.

I have a great intrest in past War history due to all of my older family members across the globe.

I am quite intrested in seeing the WW2 Camouflage on Jims new bow. Hopefully pictures come soon.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Rat, Mad, and baldmountain,

I might have expected the handles to remain true to form and be difficult w/ finishing…

It will be interesting to see how many man hours there are in each handle when the smoke clears…I guess the upside is getting “hands on” type attention to detail at every stage. 

If tying up a man and a big machine for a day just to carve out your handle, from a block big enough to get 4 of anyone else’s bows out of, makes you squeamish…you’d be well advised to run the other way…if however, there is some morbid intrigue – or actual interest, your gonna have to hang on. 

This bow has told me time and again that it won’t be rushed…attempts to speed things up are quashed with uncanny regularity. I simply let the process happen – as long as the bows right in the end. (Oh, I fought it for a while…) 

I am sorry to drag you guys into what now must be classified as grandstanding. If you think this is painful, at one stage I thought that I’d be shooting a prototype by the months end…fully 1 year later I laid my hands on it…I believe this decorating to be the last variable, by process of elimination, there’s nothing else left. 

Jim


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

*...actual interest*

...and I am with ya on wanting it right. If it was my bow I would want it perfect before I released it to the world as well. I guess I am just a little impatient.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Perfect it WILL be.


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

*moon bow*

A concept bow is solid billet machine riser with integral limb pockets,
it takes a 38lb billet 28 by 6 by 3 to build a riser,Barnsdale limbs,
full axel needle bearings in idle wheel,needle bearnings inserted in cam,and Winners choice strings and cables along with Sims package . Bow is 36 ata at 3.4 lbs walnut grip,new mossy oak breakup camo,center shot,IBO 310 TO 314 WITH A 352 GRAIN ARROW WITH STRING LEACHES AND A BRASS NOK

Msrp $655.00


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## psychobowz (Feb 25, 2004)

*wow*

Jungle,
1st let me say I love your design idea here. Sounds terrific, let me know when you get this off the ground I am very, very interested. Let me alos humble myself here for a minute by saying that I thought I knew what I was talking about when it came to bow design, but you are on another plane of existence. Just to clarify, I have been shooting for about 15 years now, 12 competitively, shot on pro-staff for 2 bow companies, & own a pro-shop. You are sure getting things figured out here, and these guys on AT are bouncing some great ideas back and forth. Good luck.


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

Nice looking bow for sure! What is the estimated weight of the riser? Another question, will this design require a 3 or 4 axis Mill to machine out? Perhaps maybe a 5th axis with the ends? Oh, sorry last Question I promise , is there a specific reason why you havent machined any of the relief holes through out the riser to dampen vibration?


I am tempted to test this design using Solidworks to check it's structural integrity although I am sure it is very strong. It is truly a beautiful riser and nice to see someone try to make a top notch bow. My hat is off to you!


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Concept,

I hope you sell lots of them. 

Psychobowz,

Thanks for the kind words, I have gotten a lot of help from guys on AT, it’s not often one of the first things that comes to mind, but many of the folks here are very accomplished at what they do professionally, in addition to the common interest in archery. Their insights are valuable to me, as many of the challenges are mutual.

SilentElk,

The riser is about 4.6lbs. It would take a 5 axis to do the ends at the same time; they are done in a separate operation w/ another machine. Cutouts, or lack of them, are a consideration of strength, mass/inertia, balance, and cosmetics. The longer handle has to be strong to allow for higher levels of energy storage. Mass is one of the most effective means of absorbing vibration.

The design minimizes stress concentrations, by not disrupting the flow, in part, by utilizing large radiuses and tangent surfaces.

Thank-you for the kind words, this bow will always be met with critical acclaim, as it goes against the grain in almost every way.

Jim.


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

> The design minimizes stress concentrations, by not disrupting the flow, in part, by utilizing large radiuses and tangent surfaces.


Thanks for that, now it's TOTALY CLEAR. 

I just wanna see a picture


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

Hellooooooooooooooooooo? 

STILL no pictures? 

It's been a week since the last post.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Update:

Finished handles were shipped to me yesterday, as to when they arrive; your guess is as good as mine.

Won’t take me long once I get them.

Finishing has not proven to be strait forward. We’re combining a bunch of different technologies, not normally combined.

The hard surface finish had me hook, line, and sinker, but it has not been without challenges.

Jim


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Gentlemen,

It’s going to be a few days yet…I just received pictures of the finished camo handle…

This gives an idea of what the camo looks like anyway.

Jim.


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

tease


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Hmmm, classic woodland?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

This picture was for color purposes, I’ll post a full picture of the handle when I get one.

Jim.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

How much does this bow weigh, and is that Canadian camouflage?


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi Duggaboy & Mad,

The camo is just simple old woodlands camo, the “classic” was meant to mean, “well known – traditional”. 

It was in the 70’s and 80’s anyway.  

The finished bow weighs about 6 lbs.

Jim.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

This is definitely specialised for certain people. After putting a sight, small stabilizer with TFC or Doinker, arrow rest. This thing will be a tank.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,

It’s not light, we had different versions, and this one (not the lightest) was the best.

Mind you, it’s designed to be used for hunting “as is” - naked - with a rest and sight only, and the target guys seem to prefer real heavy set-ups, so there’s still room to use the heavier target sight and stabilizers.

Jim.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*I like bows built like a tank.*

Jim,

Like the look of your camo and look forward to seeing your bow in all its glory.  
Although some will squawk about the weight, it doesn't bother me.
If you put a lightweight hunting arrow rest like a biscuit, lightweight sims stabilizer, and light to medium weight sight on it, the weight won't be so bad.
My Gray Leopard Accu-Riser II weighs close to 6.5 lbs sans accessories and I love its construction.
It goes around 10 lbs with accessories but that includes a heavy HTM dominator sight and fairly heavy stabilizer.
Hunting accessories are much lighter.
There are many folks who insist the Bowman is too heavy also.
But, I've always said, "you can't make a bow as strong as an Accu-Riser without it having some weight to it".
I would guess the same holds true for your bow.  


Sag.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Sag,

For hunting, a stabilizer isn’t necessary. The bow balances beautifully, and there is enough mass for steady aiming.

Having the weight for stabilizing in the handle has a few advantages (a stronger bow being one), I am particularly fond of the way the bow aims and points, w/ balance comparable to a normal bow w/ a stabilizer, however, half of the weight is carried above the hand, this was a major contributing factor to this design, the feel is very distinctive and pleasing, and it aims like no other.

The mass and placement of mass in relationship to your hand are some of the only variables you have to control one of the most important facets of making a clean hunting kill, that is, aiming the shot steadily, the perfect set-up won’t kill animals if it isn’t pointed right and held steadily while the arrow is released.

I normally shoot a hunting bow that weighs about 5 ½ lbs, in practice I wasn’t sure about the extra weight, in fact it tired me sooner until I got used to it and causes more movement near the end of a shooting session. The deciding factor for me was when I started hunting with it, what was overkill in the back yard where I was shooting good, became a blessing for actual field shots where things were a bit more out of control. 

I became adamant about the mass when all the stresses of hunting shots were added. If you can trust your pin and aim rock steady under most hunting conditions, you’ve got half the battle won. This bow does that.

Jim.

Here’s a full picture of the handle.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Jim,
are you planning to colorize the limbs, too?
I could imagine that a pair of limbs showing the carbon layers and a silky matt finish would match nicely to that camo.

Let me know when your website is up, so we can swap links.

Markus


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*That handle looks awesome !*

Jim,

Having no stabilizer on a hunting bow sounds great to me.
I never cared for one anyway.
I only use a stabilizer on a hunting bow to further dampen sound.
If it isn't needed, so much the better, imo.  
Sure enjoying shooting my Trails End without a stabilizer.  
To my eyes, that riser of your looks more impressive than any long riser I have ever seen.
It looks hell for strong !
Cant wait to see it with limbs attached.


Sag.


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

great looking riser, someday you might want to experiement & add a grip like the old Carols had. That would look really nice on that riser!


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi Markus,

I think an exposed carbon limb, as you described would look really good on there. I know there are film dips with faux patterns of carbon fabric, but plain old raw carbon would be very nice.  

I plan to use as standard – matt black – and they have the silky appearance that you use in your description, they are beautiful. When the handles return, I’ll forward one to Dave to have the other two colors matched for optional solid colors. I think carbon as an option would be really nice. I have some special things for the black handles…but nothing really unique for the camo one.

An existing pattern on the handle makes it more limited as to limb decorating. I could see the carbon as being a very sharp look. I think it’s worth trying a set or two if Dave can do them…if they didn’t look good on the camo – they may on the black.  

It won’t take me long with the web site once I have photos, I’ll keep in touch w/ you on it.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi Sag,

Ahhh, the Trails End…mine’s not even drilled for one…  

This bow aims like you’ve got a long target stabilizer on there, but you can still carry it arround and hunt with it. There couldn’t help but be a benefit in dampening, although I don’t know how perceptible it would be, the handle dampens a lot of vibration/sound.

It is very strong, I like the analogy of a highway hummer vs a military hummer.

Orions bow,

I’m trying to think of what the Carol grip was like…I’ll have to look around in archery history and see if I can find a picture.

Jim.


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## Orions_Bow (Dec 14, 2002)

Here you go - a couple of Carol handles to check out.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Hate to say this but if you want to maximize torque on a reflex riser, shoot it with a high wrist. 
Those grips are from the past and there are good reasons you won't see them very often nowadays, good looking or not.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

duggaboy, exactly right!


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

*Jungle ...........*

you design looks clean, and the concept's pretty cool ..........
but if I'm gonna dole out $2,000.00 ............. I want an aftermarket camo....

Some of your costs in production that you stated prior seem really high ... could be your location's lack of resourses ......... but for a couple of extra bucks a prettier finish would greatly improve your bow ..............

My $.02 Canadian / $.016 U.S.


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

I have to agree. about the camo

It is kinda of like a Bently with a Macco paint job.  

If you expect people to pay $2,000 for this bow, i would have hoped it would have a beatiful photo-realistic camo finish.


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## ToddM (May 30, 2003)

Is that hard anodized or did that process end up too expensive? Probably too spendy I shudder to think what multi color hard anodizing could cost.

I kinda like the camo, it's a clean traditional look.

I'd definately stay away from the faux carbon fiber look stuff, it only makes products look cheap. It's the kinda stuff you see on rice burner shift knobs and mountian bikes at walmart.


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## JC280 (Jul 22, 2002)

*Camo patterns*

I think the camo looks good. Every mass produced bow in the world uses some type of brand name camo pattern. Realtree how original. The person that purchases this bow will be looking for something different not your run of the mill Team Realtree Mathews or Hoyt. Plus there probabley have been more deer killed in that camo pattern than all the brand name stuff combined. I for one wish I had an extra $2000 because I would love to own one of these bad boys.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*Camo looks great to me.*

I like the look of the camo and prefer it to anything Realtree has.
Just goes to show you how opinions differ.  


Sag.


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## TheTone (Oct 7, 2003)

I think something like outifitter or predator green or grey would look really awesome on a bow. AS it though its cool, I can't ever swing 2 G's for a bow, but if I could...


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

The riser is way too cool! I am interested in the target colors. The black riser sounds very intriguing. I think it would spank every other bow right now. I am with ToddM on the faux carbon fiber look to the limbs. Glossy black limbs with a full moon logo on each limb would "pop". RH draw, 55 pounds draw weight,29 inch draw length, a set of good ball bearing mounted cams with decent speed and 75% let-off and " look out x-ring, here comes deadx!"


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

The woodland camo is okay. Maybe a bit dark for my African hunts but not enough to excuse a spooked antelope. 
ASAT would be perfect.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Pintojk & scottland,

Thanks for the nice comments.

I agree it’s probably a bit quirky to put an old camo on a bow like this, but the whole bow is so far out – I thought it sort of fit. Some of the dipped finishes are beautiful.

Don’t be mistaken about the quality of this finish, that’s 0.040” hard anodize, the same stuff that makes aluminum good for broadhead ferrules and golf club driver heads. I could dip 3 handle / limb combo’s for the price of one of these finishes.  

It’s intentionally not mainstream, however, I understand your position.

ToddM,

That’s hard anodize in all its glory.

Rodger that…on the - “rice burner shift knobs and mountain bikes at Wal-Mart.”  

Hoyt280,

Thanks for the kind words, I concur with your assessment, and in fact, that’s what drove the decision to go with the high-end retro finish.

I have had some success at getting the costs down, it won’t be quite as bad, but still not good, I’m waiting for the smoke to clear before finalizing it.

Sag,

I expect there’ll be a lot of critical opinions on it, but for some, it’s gonna be love at first sight.

TheTone,

Predator is a favorite of mine, however they don’t have a dip film for it…already talked to them. XI used to use that pattern – I think it was sprayed on with stencils…

I have a photo realistic pattern I developed specifically for this bow that looks stunning, but it’s a few bucks to set-up for it, sometime down the road for more of a mainstream look.

Deadx,

I won’t rest till I see one of Dave’s wood grain limbs on the black handle…Birdseye is gorgeous…

Don’t worry about the faux carbon fiber…you won’t see anything like that on a Moon.

Duggaboy,

ASAT is another good one that's not available in a dip finish.  

Thanks all for the responses…can’t wait to show it to you ready to shoot. There are a few more hoops to jump through, but I’m getting close.

Jim.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Jim,

I definitely prefer the hard anodize finish to anything available anywhere !
My old Red Man has it and it's tough as nails.
Hardcoat is much superior to any film dipped or standard anodized finish.
What good is the most handsome filmed dipped finish if it is easily rubbed off ?
Stewart Bowman has someone doing a film dip for him that is supposed to be really tough.
You may want to contact Stewart about it, in case you want to try a dipped finish in the future.
As for myself, it's hardcoat and only hardcoat ! 
I would be willing to pay a premium price to Merlin or any other manufacturer to get a hardcoat finish.
You have another "one up" on the industry.  



Sag.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> that’s 0.040” hard anodize,


Really ? FORTY thousandths. Anodize. Wow, that's.... amazing.  

(Here's hoping your drawings have more accurate tolerances than your posts  )


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## Xdweller (Nov 25, 2004)

*Ug Leeeeeee*

I don't see what some of you see- that is the ugliest bow handle I've ever seen. It is plain and unattractive, looks heavy as hell and torque-ridden. 

Shame to put those beautiful barnsdale limbs on such an ugly bow. $2,000? - not me- not ever.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

gt,

I have no idea what your problem is with a 1mm finish? You seem to know what your talking about, so please elaborate, I'm anxiouse to hear whats so funny?


xdweller,

It's meant to be plain and heavy, but it's not torque ridden.

Jim.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Looks just as good as any other bow… In fact I think most bows are starting to look the same. At 3-d shoots I used to be able to just get a glimpse of the riser an was able to tell you model and who made it …. Now many look very similar…

As far as the camo of course people like the latest and newest stuff. People are whom that camo is marketed to. Not it’s ability to hide the bows form from deer. Any mottled , muted pattern that does not “blob” up will do that just fine. You can even paint a bow yourself and get better concealment then the latest patterns in many cases. But of course the person does not like it…

But hey if we did not make Realtree, Buckmasters, Mossy Oak and the rest rich who else would have all the money to make them hunting shows for us.  

Strange how different camo is in the arenas were it really matters… on the battlefield. Designers come up with the most utilitarian for the most varying degrees possible and only change it when something is tested and proven to be better…  

That being said I have the newest stuff because that’s what’s available but don’t claim that it works any better ( or worse) then others … Give me some grey , brown, tan and black and Green spray paint and I’ll paint you up an bow and some jeans you couldn’t find in the woods Keep in mind beauty should be in function not appearance … Unless you buying art of course..


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

George,

I must say, what an honor it should have been, that is, my first communications with you. I am left somewhat dumbfounded now that I have figured out who you are.  

An engineer/designer, and …world-class archer, author, etc., privileges me with a few comments on the bow… design, or, maybe the geometry… no, maybe something about the flat limbs…no, no, machining….  

But…after all 5 pages… you found what you think is an error… and it amounts to a…decimal place?  

Say it was an error…and I’m not saying it was, I just finished dealing with these issues of threaded hole tolerances and plugging/masking, etc, etc, I’m crystal clear on what I’ve been told from their people. 

This would be your comment, a possible error of a decimal…I mean…so what if it was???

Your condescension w/ happy faces is noted.  

What a letdown…

Jim.

I will seek clearification on the finish thickness tomorrow, as I don’t have a finished handle, only the photo of one. Do you represent Hoyt, or Easton? Are you representing them now?


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## 500 fps (Oct 13, 2002)

I like it, I like the woodland camo, and I like the whole premise behind making the bow......I just wish I could afford it.


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## TheTone (Oct 7, 2003)

Thanks for explaining why there are no bows or accesories in predator, I guess that makes sense although I wish there was a dip for it. Is there any reason why there isn't? Is the random nature of the pattern the problem? The lines on your bow look awesome and if it shoots like it should, and I see no reason why it won't, it will be one heck of a bow.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> This would be your comment, a possible error of a decimal…I mean…so what if it was???


0.040" vs. 0.004" is a factor of TEN. Hardly a small oversight, nu ?

*Leading people down the disinformation cowpath isn't in anyone's interest.* 

I see it on this board a lot, and it's a pet peeve, which is why I posted.

You seem like an honest guy, so I'm sure that wasn't your intent, so, Jungle, let me ask you a question or three. 

Do you know anything at all about anodic coatings ?

Is your vendor really telling you that you're getting a FORTY THOUSANDTHS anodize thickness on your part ? And did you really believe him about that ? 

Is that what you think you're paying for ? 

Do you have a good lawyer ? If so, you might have a good case, especially if the vendor guaranteed you would get a forty-thousandths finish.

Since you are the one who made such a big deal about the thickness of your anodize, even alternately calling it a one-millimeter coating, it seemed to me that your statement needed to be questioned.

I can understand someone not wanting any critical comments when trying to launch a new product, but when you enter the realm of the ridiculous then some people feel the need to ask a question. 

Here's a little bit of "Anodize 101" for you:

No one coats thicker than 0.008", that is only for architectural decoration, and it results in a layer subject to spalling because the coating density is very low in that situation. Think of it as being "fluffy" for want of a better term.

Such a coating would be a disaster on structural parts. Excessively thick anodize layers can cause stress cracks). Generally, *0.004", FOUR thousandths, is considered too thick for most structural applications.*

Military spec hard coat is 0.002" on either 6000 or 7000 series alloy. That is the ideal balance of density and hardness for a hardcoat finish. It is not a particularly expensive process, but it does require a chilled tank (32F) and pulse rectification of current for best results. 

A true type 3 hardcoat will not accept an organic dye (camo) unless it is compromised with nitric acid- which puts it back to a state similar to class II anodize, but with less seal quality.

I hope this helps you understand why I questioned your claim of a forty-thousandths anodic coating on your part.

Best of luck with your product.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

George,

Don’t piss on my head and tell me its raining…nice try though…I know exactly what your intent was (just as you knew exactly the mistake I/they made), but, I think a few of em will buy it…  

Quite frankly, this blowjob treatment…it kind of offends my intelligence.

I did enjoy the "Anodize 101"

I’ve cc’d it w/ my questions to my/our decorator for their comments.

Thanks for the heads up on that one …buddy.

Jim.

PS: How do you handle working around Hoyt – or Easton if you’re concerned about the “disinformation cowpath”? LOL.


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

I bet ya ole gt was voted Mr. Congeniality.  

Surely he can't be all that bad in person.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*Well, I was going to let it go but changed my mind.*

gt,

If you're so intelligent, why don't you design a riser that doesn't bend so easily ?  
Improve your own product before worrying about a superior one !  


Sag.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

No Doc, I wouldn’t expect to seem much grinning and eye rolling in person, perhaps one day I can tell you, I’m gonna be traveling some of the same circles now with the bow. 

Jim.


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## scottland (Oct 29, 2004)

I have got to respect Jungle about one thing; he is sticking to his ideals.

Most bows now adays have cut-outs in the riser, and photo-realistic dipped camo finishes. And a much smaller price tag 

His doesn't. Not to say he isn't building an awsome bow, He is building exactly what he wants to build. 

As i stated before im not crazy about the camo, manly because it reminds me of the 80's too much  

But despite all critics Jungle is staying behind his idea because this is the way he thinks it should be done.

And I think that should be commended.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Just for the record I like the camo job too. It IS different and therefore fits the bow just fine.Add it to my hunting bow and I will be one stealthy individual.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Sagittarius said:


> gt,
> 
> If you're so intelligent, why don't you design a riser that doesn't bend so easily ?
> Improve your own product before worrying about a superior one !
> ...


I don't understand what makes this superior? It's a riser. Has no cutouts like a scepter 3. The geometry is different? No stainless steal stabilizer bushings? Woodland camo? For some reason I must have been mistaken. I thought it was WWII camouflage being put on these bows.

This product is superior to what? It's just like all the other marketing hype out there. Maybe on a smaller scale.

Dylan


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,

You’ve got my e-mail…I can only think that by jumping on again, you have taken offense to my speaking w/ George.

Industry professionals, the good ones - are not threatened, and don’t feel the need to belittle you or demean what your doing, they are genuinely helpful, often interesting, sometimes inspiring, always thought provoking, and will give honest information, opinions, and advise. 

Bad industry pro’s should be drawn and quartered, preferably at an industry show, so that the others take heed.

You, you can say what you like; I don’t expect much out of you.

Jim.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Hi Jim,

I still think your crazy but will be happy if you prove me wrong. 

Don't mind gt. He's ummm... Crabby.  Actually, of all the people on AT he is the one who could help you the most, but he's not likely to since he works for Hoyt.

The camo is fine. IIRC deer are color blind so the camo could be red, hot pink and white and it would work just as well. The latest photo realistic camos are a sales tool rather than an effective camoflage. You just need something to break up the lines of the bow rather than blend in. The camo is there to hide the long curving lines of the bow which are not natural and stand out.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jungle said:


> Dylan,
> 
> You’ve got my e-mail…I can only think that by jumping on again, you have taken offense to my speaking w/ George.
> 
> ...


Jim, I'm not on GT's side. Infact I'm not sure if GT or I have ever seen eye to eye. I still don't see what is particularily special about your riser. I'm not a pro, should I get my stuff together and actually start shooting decently. Perhaps one day I may be at a higher level of shooting. But as I said before, what in particular is so special about your riser?

A bench rifle way's a ton. But you put a bench rifle on a bench to shoot it. This 6 pound bow of yours is heavy. When lugging through the mountains or any other sort of hunting where you walk. It's gonna be a freaken ton on the shoulders to carry around. I get tired after lugging my bow around that might weigh 4.5 pounds or less for an entire day of hunting. 

6# bow without stabilizers. Well the last time I looked people wanted to stabilize away from the bow. Reason is, Imagine having a 6 pound bow in your hands and a gust of wind comes up when you are competing in a Fita. You have no stabilizers out front to counteract the affects of the wind so you are blown off of the target regularily. The bow will be like a windsail with more surface area and a heavier weight then other bows. I would think a lighter bow with heavier stabilization would be ideal for windy situations. Not a heavy bow with no stabilization.


So your bow is specialized for treestand hunting and or indoor shooting? Or big built people that want to lug a heavy expensive bow around whilst hunting. Is it special enough to retail at $2000? I still don't understand how.

If I wanted the CPS cam or something similar. I could buy a Merlin for less money and the same quality as your bow. Or I could buy CPS and pay Dave Barnesdale to make me a bow with his riser and limbs and specific colours I want for less then the price of the moon.

The reason I am posting on here and not emailing you. Is I want to clarify and debate in public about your bow. If you can't understand that. Then why release it on a public forum?

ps. How come Canadian manufacturers and companies would like to have Canadians buy Canadian made products or from Canadian distributors and then everything Canadian is so much more expensive then everything else? Then we get killed with border fee's if we go outside of Canada to get something. 

I mean the price of Quebec soapstone vs Italian is one good example.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Dylan,



> I want to clarify and debate in public about your bow. If you can't understand that. Then why release it on a public forum?



And I quote from the thread intitled “Merlin Recurve”, post # 3, in response to a comparison made of the said bow to a Hoyt Avalon:

“If you don't like ummm, stick to your hoyts.”

Similarly……………well, you know the rest.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Baldmountain,

I can answer that now, let me save you the wait,

Yes, I am, sorry to make you sad.

Jim.


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

how could anyone with half a brain think a lighter bow is better in the wind?
merlin apex, 
funny, i've been thinking about checking out a merlin, but your 'i've got the greatest $600 bow in the world' attitude has made me hate merlins and i've never even seen one in person. just thought you might like to know the effect you're having on people is opposite of what you may be intending. and how in the world can you criticize someone's riser, or the quality of design, until you've shot the bow and seen for yourself. the smarter you try and make yourself sound the dumber you appear. sorry if this is rough, but i've been checking out your posts and you're an ass, and tonight i couldn't deny myself.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jungle said:


> Dylan,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I recall. Nobody said your bow looks like anyone elses.. well perhaps someone said it looked like an AR. But I remember defending it, because it's common for people to concieve something as looking like something else. It's all about finding commonality to feel comfortable. As I also recall Merlin isn't selling their riser for any more expensive then a Hoyt recurver riser. Maybe the quality is the same between Merlin and Hoyt. Maybe hoyts is better? Maybe Merlins attention to detail when finishing a riser is better? But the price is still relatively the same. 

I never said I didn't like your bow or even the concept. But you've stated how special this bow is compared to other manufactures and how the quality is so high and it's no comparison to say a merlin, hoyt, martin.

What are we comparing here? Because price wise there is surely no comparison. 

But when comparing to other risers weight, vibration distribution.. so on.

Lets compare my Infinite to my girlfriends X factor. The X factor is lighter then the infinte and has more material cut away from the riser compared to the Infinite and the infinite has carbon backing. I still find the X-factor to have less vibration when shot and a nicer reaction all around when compared to the heavier, carbon backed riser. Their geometry is relatively close from pivot to plunger hole, slight differences in over all geometry like stabilizer hole postions and things like that.. So my conclusion is that mass weight of the bow itself isn't everything.

With a lighter riser, you can add more mass to the stabilizers giving it better steerability then heavier risers. Especially in the wind. With the use of stabilizers one can find a sweet spot that is good for their personal preferences. Extra bow weight can hamper the ability to do this.

Most risers don't flex or give in the wind. Stabilizers do however, allowing for a more forigiving set up.

Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about. But I think your riser is open for discussion. Especially when you are saying it's the cats butt compared to many other manufactures and I and others are trying to justify the price. 

If I've said anything you feel is dishonest. I can always go find a thread or a post where you've compared your bow to other bows on the market. 

Dylan


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Bucknasty, 

Ahh, I see. When did I ever say Merlin was the greatest for $600. Please quote me? 

I shoot a Merlin compound. Used to shoot their Apex recurve. I find flaws in both, or maybe things I myself don't like about them. For instance, I didn't like the grip on the recurve and no matter how I modified the grip, I still couldn't get comfortable with it and my thumb was getting ratched. I didn't like the limb adjustment on the Apex and felt it needed to be more solid. 2 things about the design they paid close attention to with their new Elite and Quasar. Which I don't own or never have shot.

With the Quest 35, the year model I have has a grip that I don't particularily like, but I've gotten used to it somewhat. Though it's very easy to torque compared to other risers like Hoyt, Martin.... with the thin grip and side plates that I've test shot. Merlin Modified their newer version of the Quest 35 to incorparate side plates and thin out the grip. They also added a stainless steal stabilizer bushing. Both are good modifications. I like my Quest 35 though. Geometry wise it's excellent to shoot.

I shoot an Infinite for recurve now and the Quest 35 for hunting.

I won't comment any further about what ever else you've posted. 

Dylan


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jim's been awful quiet. I wonder what's happening...


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

I’m still here. I’ve had a chance to put a couple of bows together, but I’m waiting on carbon rods (I’ve been using s-steel) before I go through the ordeal of photography.

Right now I’m working on a second limb/cam combo, that’s a bit more market/speed oriented, and waiting for the last bits to come together.

I still have one outstanding issue unrelated to the cosmetic looks of the bow, I’ve switched to a silicone for the vibration dampening – and should be getting that soon also, although that won’t affect the pictures.

After getting the finished handles back – I’m happy with them. I still haven’t received info back w/ regards to the finish I ended up with – unfortunately, I’m completely at the mercy of the decorator – you couldn’t prove by me what’s on there…but the colors look rich and nice compared to other anodize finishes I’ve seen. 

I sent them through quite a list of questions – w/ the help of GT’s anodize 101…I’ll be choked if there’s not some performance benefits over type 2…as I can’t justify the cost of this finish if I don’t get any spin from it. I can confirm that the finish ISN’T 0.040”, but somewhat less…I can’t measure that close to tell if it’s 0.002, or 0.003…

I am very impressed w/ the polishing job they did, with the machining technique used, all surfaces are machined in tiny steps, and so the finish is a series of tiny ridges that are removed in the polish stage. 

I’ll be back when I’ve got some news.

Jungle.


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## AZ&F'sDaddy (May 30, 2003)

*Sales Pitch*

Jungle,

I'm a real, live, potential customer. I like speed, and I hunt. I like my Hoyt Supertecs. My draw length is 27", and I pull 65 lbs. With my whitetail-setup, I get over 300 fps. With my elk-setup, I get 280's.
I would be open to spending $2000 for a bow, if I was going to get greater speed without sacrificing accuracy. Tell me why I should buy your bow.

Joey


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Joey,

You didn’t quote an arrow weight to complete your ratios.

Unfortunately right now I can’t give you the sales pitch that you deserve…

The first bow I’m putting together likely won’t compete with your set-up with similar PDF – ratio to ratio (IBO to IBO if you like). It uses a 15” recurve limb and a soft cam. 

This bow has an ATA of 42 ½”, and BH of 8 3/8”, @ 29” dl – the longest draw w/ the soft cam, 5 gpp was about 282 fps, 4.5 gpp was about 295 fps, and 4.25 was about 303.

I have used it at all those speeds, but mostly at the lower end of the spectrum, the hunting set-up I used was 5.8 gpp @ 264 fps.

If you chase the ratios, you’ll have to wait to see a lower brace height combo, if the ratio doesn’t bother you, you can easily shoot the same speeds w/ this bow.

Will it increase your accuracy…if you’ve read this post you will be familiar with the benefits I feel it offers, and I have an unconditional money back guarantee if you don’t agree. Having said that, I won’t build a bow for anyone that I don’t think will be happy with it. 

Probably the first question I would ask is if you like adding lots of things to your bow, this bow is intended to be shot relatively bare, with only a sight and rest. It was designed to aim and shoot like a long stabilizer target bow, without any attachments. The physical weight would quickly climb into what I would feel is “too heavy”, if you start adding much. 

Now, if you like an uncluttered bow, and don’t mind a ratio change, yes, I think one of the present bows set-up to mimic your ballistics would impress you. I’d bet you’d find it tightening your groups, & extended your range.

It was designed from the ground up to milk those very characteristics to the edge of what I thought would be sellable. Unless you’re somehow immune to physics…it’s a relatively safe bet for me.

Jim.


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

For those interested in the outcome of the anodize questions…
I quote from their response:

The anodize thickness is in fact 0.002”…+/- .0003”

The hard anodize does have a stronger finish with the organic dye compared to type 2.

The nitric we use does not affect the integrity of the anodic coating.

The seal quality is not compromised.


GT, if you take exception to any of these…give Georgette a call, other than that, keep drooling over the most advanced, functional, finely crafted handle made. (Mind you…it aint got those fancy flames!)

Jim.


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

How about a couple pictures of those risers to prove you've actually got some anoziding on them  .


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## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Stinky,

You'll find the only pictures in existance of the decorated handles posted above somewhere, or 1 page back. 

I don't have any new photo's until I have bows set up with all the finishing touches, when I post photo's, they'll be "ready to go".

Jim.


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## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

For all those watching this post, check out the new thread of the soft 15 in the Man. Announcements and Releases.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=147331


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