# Traditional and Barebow scores



## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Why are the traditional and barebow scores so low at all the target tournaments? Honestly, I would think that the nonsight finger shooters would work a little harder and take more pride in their way of shooting. The scores nowadays are absolutely terrible. What can be done to instill pride in the barebow divisions?


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*excellence in barebow*

Provocative question you ask itbeso, and I wish I had a simple answer. As much as I would like to look towards the social woes of modern day archery. I think your post holds the answer.

It boils down to hard work. We as barebow archers, which I use in the broader term of bows without a sight, we need to put in the hours of practice the tens of thousands of arrows, to raise the level of barebow archery to new heights. 

Having a few mentors would certainly shave some time off of re-inventing the wheel again. But there aren't any coaches for barebow archers, where once barebow was king of archery, now it is more of a vestigial wing of archery. 

Does this fit under "woes" of archery? I'll stop.

What's your solution itbeso, or are you just challenging us to step it up. I'd sure like to beat some of the World and National records for trad recurve and longbow, BUT how do I do it?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Tough question itbeso first Iwould like to ask you what you consider to be a good score.


For myself shooting Longbow in practice I expect to score around 360-380 mark and have hit 400 on occasion but when that tourney pressure is on and you're shooting head to head that pressure seems to kill your scores. This last year my scores have fallen due to injury and lack of practice but still happy that I can score over 300 in a tourney on a not so good day, these rounds seem to require more practice than any other round for some reason.

Jason Reid from Scotland has won the European champs two years running I dont think his score went below 360 all week and Tim van Vorhis a vet Longbow shooter from Miami is shooting consistantly over 360 also (shot with him at NAFAC05).

I'm sure Larry Yien who is the current world record holder is ready to make a comeback for the worlds in Australia this June, I'm just sorry I wont be able to defend my title as I'm in hospital the week before and will be out of action for several months. So my money for the world title is between Larry and Martin Koini from Germany and I think we will see some good scores.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

itbest -

That's is a really good question, and one we've toyed with for some here and on other forums. While I whole-hearted agree with the other posters, there's one more aspect that we need to consider. And that's attitude. I've stated this (a painful) number of times before, during the "golden age or archery", there were clubs and ranges all over the place, in most areas anyway. These clubs centered around matches, whether inter or intra club leagues, open matches, whatever. People wanted to shoot them and the friendly, and sometimes not-so-friendly competition made us better shooters. No one wanted to be low man on the totum pole all the time! We also have classes, so a new guy wouldn't be competing against the local hot-shot. You shot against people in your scoring range.b

Then when the compounds "took over" and we had the "TRAD" revolutuon, the atrtitude changed. It's now more of a come-as-you are, and scores?, we don't need no stinkin' scores thing. So we have people walking around and shooting 5 or 6 arrows and thinking they can actually shoot. Same for 3D, sorry, but 20 - 30 arrows over a few hours doesn't prove mutch, IMHO. 

My local range for instance, has a lot of stickbow shooters, no matches leagues or anything else. The only ranges around here that do, are perdominantly compound, Sure, it's tough to be the only stickbow guy shooting in the 240's (indoor) when the compound guys are in the 300 range, so I can understand the delema. Just seems strange that when I try to organize a little informal match, there's always resistance. 

Different story if you look at the NFAA trad classes at the NFAA Nationals, those guys are throwing solid scores. But, of course, they're really target shooter and so, they don't count, right???

If I seem hard on the new "traditionalists" some times, it because it seems that there's a large contingent that are more concerned with fitting a fabricated mold than actually shooting well, and the guys who do want to shoot well are (sometimes) put down for not being "Traditional", whatever that means.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled forum :darkbeer: 

Viper1 out.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> If I seem hard on the new "traditionalists" some times, it because it seems that there's a large contingent that are more concerned with fitting a fabricated mold that actually shooting well, and the guys who do want to shoot well are (sometimes) put down for not being "Traditional", whatever that means.
> Voper1 out.


I know it's just repetitive, but that statement alone should be repeated at least once a day until everybody in the "trad" world UNDERSTANDS what it means and it's ramifications to future archers that choose to shoot recurves/longbows.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Piney - 

Thanks, but you could have at least fixed where I misspelled my sig!!!

:doh:

Viper1 out.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 16, 2005)

> If I seem hard on the new "traditionalists" some times, it because it seems that there's a large contingent that are more concerned with fitting a fabricated mold than actually shooting well, and the guys who do want to shoot well are (sometimes) put down for not being "Traditional", whatever that means.


Well said, Viper.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Non saight scores*

You are all right about the amount of time it takes to learn to shoot well without sights. THe attitude seems to be that" well I shoot without sights so it is alright for me to miss".Now I know that there are plenty of us who just want to go out and fling, but on the other hand, there are plenty who want to become the best they can be. I'm going to do my part here,(out west) to raise the level of competence with a stickbow. It will either elevate others games or intimidate them into not competing. I hope it is the former. I would like to see a monthly thread her, maybe the first of each month, where everyone could list their scores and get a comparison of how they are progressing and faring against their peers around the world. Let's go out and impress the rest of the archery community.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*how scored*

can you guys tell me what these scores you quote are determined by # of arrows shot , distance, size of target face and size of target circles as fita is different than I guess your nfa????? or what the name is . 250 out of 300 is a really good score on a 40cm fita which means 8`s or more roughly and that is a 4 inch circle for all shots in theory. just wondering ???????


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I'm pretty sure the 300 to 400 scores Steve is talking about are for IFAA 28 target field shooting, where the possible is 560. The 240 Viper mention is I'm sure in reference to the NFAA Indoor 300 round.

I am a Barebow Recurve shooter (Olympic style recurve with no sights, stabilizer or clicker) and my first love is NFAA Field archery. On the same course Steve was talking about I have shot in the 430s in practice but average around 410, particularly in tourney's.

Viper touched on what I think is the reason you don't see much improvement in Traditional or Barebow style. There is no competition. Competition drives performance and the will to improve. Without it getting better is very hard. I know because most of the time I shoot alone in my class. Just showing up an loosing one arrow puts me in first place.

Last October I started putting on NFAA 28 target field shoots. I have yet to have a single longbow or barebow recurve shooter show up. I end up shooting against compounds and on one occasion a tricked out Olympic recurve.

To answer the original question, because there isn't enough competition to inspire greater achievement.

Dave


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*DaveT*

Dave, does Harold Rush not live in your neck of the woods? He is a heck of a barebow recurver. If you are interested in some real competition, sign up for the World Fita field Trials in Spokane in June. There will be plenty of barebow recurve competition there. Also, we can all do our part by getting into the mainstream, rather than staying in our own little cliques.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I know Harold and count him as a friend. In fact I have shot with/against him several times. When we do meet up, it's he and I as the only Barebow Recurve shooters there. To reinforce my earlier point, I always shoot better when I shoot against Harold. Even beat him once! (smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## Farley (Aug 1, 2005)

I'll have to agree with most for the cause, but I can add my own. Since moving to the city, I have found it hard to find places to shoot. The range that I used to go to on a regular basis has since closed down. That leaves a range at a local RA Centre (can't afford) and one in the boonies that you can't get to unless you have a car (I don't). Back when I lived in the sticks, I went out as often as I liked and had up to 40yds to play with. Now I see why people get hyper when they can hit a pie plate at 20yds.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Classic hunter*

Hunter, regarding scores, these are my own opinions on what certain standards should be. Nfaa field round......Traditional recurve- 450 or better for the top archers, 400 or better puts you in the top 5 %. If you are shooting barebow(stringwalking)recurve, then you should be about 30 points higher. Trad long bow, wood arrows....I hope to see someone shooting 400 scores on the Nfaa faces. Indoors, I know that recurve barebow scores have been shot in the 280's on the Vegas face. On the Nfaa indoor face, I think the goal for our top shooters should be in the high 280"s with the possibility of a 290 in there.


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## Arrowsmit (Oct 5, 2002)

I can't help but be curious itbeso; what are your averages in such venues?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*arrowsmit*

Arrowsmit, I'm just getting back to the barebow recurve thing after a loooooong layoff.I hope to be one of the ones who sets the standards for our group.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

I am a newbie here and mostly a lurker looking for tips and information. But this thread struck me as it made me look inwards to find out why I am not shooting top scores and moreover how can I become a better shot.

It did cross my mind as to who itbeso is to make his observations and critiques of the current state of competitive trad. But then again, I don't know who any of you are. The only fellow I truly know is the guy that's looking back at me in the mirror. I realize that if I am to become the best shot at my archery club I need to put in the hours of shooting and practice. I could also use some work on form and technique. After reading this thread it also is apparent that I need to shoot more organized tournaments if I would like to raise the competitive bar. My dream is to shoot in a World Championships and break the current World Records, yikes! 

What I am wondering is how many of you "Archery Talk" archers are willing, able and/or interested in discovering your potential as a barebow archer. We could utilize this board as a means to improve our "skills" and advance our mastery of barebow archery, rather than settling for mediocrity. It's a great board already, but I think it could be a great way of collecting our effort and support in elevating us "Instinctors".


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Bebe*

Bebe, Yours is just the kind of attitude needed by this group. I hope you succeed in your quest and I will will be trying right along with you.In monitoring posts on this site for a while, it seems that a lot of you are set in your ways as far as shooting systems and techniques. I have always found that listening and trying other things has made me a better archer. And you can find tips from the most unlikely people. They don't have to be the top shot, but if I hear something that I think might work for me, I will go home and try it.


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## MaylandL (Mar 9, 2006)

Interesting topic and its one that I've discussed with archers at the club I shoot at.

At the archeryclub that my wife and I shoot at, we are the only people shooting traditional tackle (wood laminate recurves and mongolian horsebow with wood arrows). We don't use metal nock points but rather prefer tied on nock points. The wood arrows we use have field points" 5" fletches that are spiral bound fletches and buffalo horn self nocks.

The other archers shoot modern takedown recurves with aluminium risers and carbon limbs and compounds with all the attachments and aluminium/carbon/aluminium with carbon arrows.

The comments that we've got from the club coach and the President of the local archery association is that we're doing it the hard way. All of the archers that I have met who use the modern equipment do not know how to shoot traditional tackle as they have come to rely more on the sights, clickers, stabilisers, kisser buttons, bow slings, shock absorbers etc. Their technique relies on them having these attachments. They have said to me that they would not know how to shoot a barebow accurately, especially a traditional bow that is shot over the hand instead of a centreshot bow. They agree that it takes much more training and a different shooting technique to what they currently use with the attachments that they have on the bow.

IMHO its much harder to shoot barebow, especially with traditional tackel because you no longer have the technology of sights etc to rely on.

My wife and I choose to shoot traditional bows and other tackle because of the challenge. Ultimately we want to learn the way of the bow and truly understand and appreciate the behaviour and feel of traditional equipment. For my wife and I its not about the competing aganist archers shooting modern bows but learning about the bows we shoot.

Happy shooting all


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*MarylandL*

Fortunately there is a place in archery for every discipline. Some people want to take archery to extremes and that is all right too, but your put down of people using modern equipment to shoot in the traditional manner did not go unnoticed. And if you are not riding around the archery range on horseback then you are not using the mongolian bow as it was intended. So come down off your high horse(pun intended) And accept the fact that even though we are out thewre to do our best, we are also out there because we enjoy seeing the flight of the arrow.


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## Zen Archery (Jul 27, 2004)

score keeping is an excellent way to work on form. currently when i score a 150-170 im a happy camper but its my goal to get better. note i said "goal."


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Bebe said:


> I am a newbie here and mostly a lurker looking for tips and information. But this thread struck me as it made me look inwards to find out why I am not shooting top scores and moreover how can I become a better shot.
> 
> My dream is to shoot in a World Championships and break the current World Records, yikes!


Bebe just love your attitude and remind me of myself a few years back.

2002 shot my first IFAA international tourney in Scotland and was so impressed with their skill and sportsmanship I wanted more, saved my money practiced hard and made my dream come true caus I won the follow world tourney in Watkins Glen 2004. 

Bebe dare to dream because with that attitude I can see you winning world titles and records.:wink:


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## Jim Pritchard (Dec 5, 2005)

Steve:
Very nice comment to BeBe.
Jim


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Steve Morley*

Congratulations on your successes, Steve. Hope to get to shoot with you some day.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*excuse me*

I wanted to clarify and apologize if I was brash in my previous post. Better stated my dream is to shoot in a World Championships, and another goal of mine is to break the World Record. Part of me thinks that I should just keep those thoughts to myself. Afterall I am just a greenhorn with a keyboard.ukey: 

But by putting it to print it has proven to be a motivator. After sharing that dream with the rest of you I am now thinking about, what is it going to take to shoot in a World Championships, what is it going to take to shoot a new World Record?

I am going to have to start practicing more and shooting some field rounds for score. But what type of practice program should I adopt? Am I ready for this journey?

Wow!:darkbeer: 

While I appreciate the warm welcome and kind words from those of you above, what I would really like are some "partners in crime". * Patriots who are loyal to barebow archery*, archers that are willing to get out of their comfort zone and take it to the next level.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

This post presents one of the problems I see with longbow and recurve shooters ever presenting a united front. There have been at least two implied definitions of both "barebow" and "traditional". Some of you are talking about primitive equipment, some about what's found in NFAA's Traditional style, and some FITA Barebow Recurve. Too often you are compairing apples to orange trees. (smiley face goes here)

I consider myself a Barebow Recurve shooter as I have been told time and again I am not "traditional" and because as a face walker I am restricted to NFAA's Barebow style and FITA's Barebow Recurve class. Because of my aiming system/technique I'm not allowed in anyone's traditional class. I don't mind this but when talking about and compairing scores it helps to know where the speaker (typer?) is coming from. It also helps to know what course/round we're taking about.

Dave


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

yea I am wondering the same thing all the time.

This is the traditional forum but maybe we need to split this forum up into 3 types:

Traditional - Olympic recurve (sights)
Traditional - instinctive
Traditional - nuts that like to make their own gear and live in the 14th century

regarding scores, they should go into one of the above categories. cause lets face it, it is easier for someone to pick up an Olympic recurve and fire a higher score then shooting a bow whittled out of a hockey stick using clothes line for a string.

good equipment always makes the archer better - if not there is no way that you would see $1000 bows if the one out of walmart would get me to the Olympics.

I am sure that scores are lower on average for instinctive shooting, but I guess they should be. It sounds though from your post that they are unusually lower – were the scores better years ago? Do you have any evidence of that or are you just saying that is the way it seems? 

one last thing - it is easy to stand there and shoot 3 or 5 arrows into a nice group at 20yrds but it is 10x harder to shoot once then move to different terrain and shoot at a target with no markings and score well from varying distances. Besides one is exciting and fun with a high degree of difficulty and the other is NFAA Indoor.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Mickc*

Mick, I don't think we have to split the forum into three groups. The three groups that you mention need to stick together to further their collective cause. I would agree that the three styles of trad that you mention bring their own limitations with them and when mentioning your scores feel free to qualify what style you shot them with.I, for one, can appreciate the different degrees of difficulty within the shooting styles. If one is so inclined, they can always change to a different style to better their scores or to bask in the pleasure of shooting the most primitive equipment they can find.I don't think anyone on this forum is going to diminish any other archers scores. I look at this as an opportunity for all of to compare and possibly set higher goals.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

An archer can shoot barebow "traditional" equipment, and need not shoot instinctively.

The hunting part of "traditional" archery has flowed over into barebow archery so much that many believe you must aim instinctively. It even reflects the type of equipment choice... you must use a wooden bow to be "traditional". 

Imagine, going to an archery club's shoot and hearing this...

_Ok, you archers that don't look at your arrow, you're in this class.
You over there... you use gapping, you're in this class.
And you odd balls that use metal recurves, that's not "traditional"._


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Pinelander*

Pinelander, I don't think that your comments are a fair assessment of what is being discussed here. There are definite limitations placed by each type of recurve or longbow used. Do I want to see us fragmented into 10 different divisions.?No. My statement was to give respect to the scores shot taking into consideration what method was used. I don't care if you are stringwalking with a longbow, but you will have a harder time scoring better than someone using a good takedown recurve.IT'S ALL GOOD.


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

I am new to organized archery so i am little confused on what you mean by shooting primitive but not instinctive? i don't know what gap shooting is either?
I pull my nock back to anchor and stare at the center of the target with out refocusing. I don't close an eye or anything like that either. what style is that? I don't want to assume anything.

Thanks


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Gapping is using the shaft of the arrow (or some part of the bow or your hand) or even the point of the arrow in some cases (depending on how long or heavy it might) in determining a "correlation" between that and the target. Some folks look at that type of aiming as getting rather close to using a "sight", which is often deemed not traditional because it doesn't utuilize barebow aiming. You can bet most anyone that is scoring in the 280's on a 300 round barebow is not using purely instinctive style. You can 'aim' by using the arrow as a reference point, and you can also 'aim' by the point and shoot method without using the arrow as a reference... which is commonly referred to as "instinctive".


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

itbeso,

Your "can't we all get along" approach sounds great but it falls a bit short of the reality, on the web and on the range.

Longbows don't want to compete against recurves (it's not fair) while they will tell you their favorite R/D carbon lam wonder performs just as good or better.

Wood riser recurves, shot off the shelf, don't want to compete against Olympic style recurves with elevated rests and plungers...those guys are cheating!

Instinctive shooters don't want to compete against those who gap and if you string walk or face walk, why don't you know that should be outlawed (and in some competition is).

3D shooters don't want to try Field or Target because it's too hard and they shoot too many arrows.

Real bowhunters (traditional?) don't what to compete at all and claim any shot after the first one doesn't count and is boring anyway. Oh, and he can't hit it unless it has hair on it.

And so it goes, on and on and on and on and on...

Dave


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*DaveT*

Dave, First of all it is a matter of choice regarding what equipment you shoot. Second, if you promote lack of harmony, that is what you will get. Third, I never said "can't we all just get along", Rodney King did and as far as I know, he wasn't an archer. What I did say was respect the differences and pay them the proper weight when comparing scores. Anyone who complains of anothers advantage in equipment has the choice of getting that equipment for themselves. Otherwise enjoy what you shoot and accept the limitations.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

itbeso,

I am fully aware of the choice of equipment. I choose the best shooting "barebow" I can get. It's the other folks who want every difference in a different class/style I was referring to.

As for Rodney's quote, I was kidding. I didn't say you said that.

Finally, I don't:


> ...promote lack of harmony...


What I promote is Field Archery. What I get for my efforts is a lack of harmony. Every single point I made in that last post was an objection leveled at/to me by those who don't want to get along.

Telling people they should be shooting higher scores, when the vast majority of them don't even shoot competition is kind of...well, I better not go there. I have already annoyed you and that was not my intention.

Better shut up now,
Dave


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*DaveT*

Dave, When people care enough to get in the dialogue and offer opinions, they certainly do not annoy or offend me. And I have been and am currently in your position in regards to trying to bring different philosophies together. Please keep your opinions coming, we don't all think the same, but I think we all have the same goals.And remember, these are typed words, they can't convey the feelings they were put in with.


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## pinki (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm not sure if I have just been living under a FITA Target perspective or what, but I was unaware of the World levels of traditional shooting. I would like info as to where I can find more information about the upcoming world events and scores-to-beat. In order to set goals, the rest of us need to know what we are up against! I shoot everything from the newest Hoyt compound and recurves to an osage self bow, and another bow made out of bamboo tomato stakes duct taped together with zip ties for nocks(?) so knowing that there is more out there intrigues me!

Thanks for the help if anybody knows it!
~pinki


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

http://www.archery-ifaa.com/

for Pinki:wink:


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Here's a goal to strive for -- At the NFAA Indoor Nationals in Louisville the winning traditional scores were:

1st - Cal Latimer 282, 279, 561
2nd - Jim Powell 275, 281, 556

That's 561 & 556 in a double NFAA 300 round. 

All the scores will be posted in a day or two at www.nfaa-archery.org


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## pinki (Mar 30, 2005)

Do any of you guys ever shoot NAA? and, how does one make said teams to go to the worlds? what is the process?

Thanks again!
~pinki


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

pinki - 

You might want to try upstairs at the FITA/NAA/JOAD forum. A lot of those guys have been there and done that.

Viper1 out.


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## pinki (Mar 30, 2005)

Viper1

I looked at the NAA Indoor nationals scores in the trad divisions... there were maybe 4 people who even shot it? So, Im not sure the NAA and FITA forum will be any more helpful... but thanks for the idea!

~pinki


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*Pinki*

Pinki, don't let anyone shush you away from this forum. If you want to shoot fita field barebow then this is the place for you to get educated. Besides we need all the finger dogs we can get.


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## toxoph (Mar 24, 2005)

steve morley said:


> and Tim van Vorhis a vet Longbow shooter from Miami is shooting consistantly over 360 also (shot with him at NAFAC05).


 Nothing against Miami but Tim shoots out of my club in Fort Myers in SW FL. Tim is amazing, several times in practice, he has broken world records. Rock steady and focused (when at full draw). Probably his biggest secret is he has a lot of fun shooting, always smilling and joking, nothing phases him.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

itbeso,

No offense (again) but this is not the place to discuss FITA Field or Barebow classes (NFAA or FITA). The "Traditional" lable means bowhunting and 3D, not any kind of target shooting (shooting targets gets trashed as often as not). Most here don't shoot NFAA Field and never even heard of FITA Field. It does get discussed occasionally on the FITA/JOAD Forum.

As for NFAA Field, there is no place to really discuss it as there are only a handfull of us still shooting it. Sad, but that is the current state of US archery.

Dave

PS: As stated above the top Traditional score for Louisville was 561. The top Barebow score was 580 (although that may have been with a compound). How much better do you think they should be doing?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

*DaveT*

DaveT, with all due respect the Nfaa was started by "traditional" archers back in the thirties. Stickbows and wooden arrows were the norm and they had no problem shooting out to 80 yards. It is hilarious to me how many of the "traditional" shooters of today, who haven't been around for 10 years, cry when you talk about shooting more than 20 yards. Maybe this class should be called "nuveau trad". Part of the joy of shooting a stickbow is the enjoyment of watching the flight of the arrow, and you'll have to forgive me but you just can't do that at 10 to 20 yards.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

itbeso,

I am fully aware of the founding and beginning of NFAA field. And, I couldn't agree with you more. Now you have to convince the current crop of "neo-trads" as we call them over on TradTalk.

I think I mentioned this before but I put on a monthly field shoot here. It's been going since October and I have yet to have a single longbow or recurve shooter (one Olympic recurve showed up one time) participate. I wouldn't care what kind of arrows they shoot, I'd just like to see someone give it a try. All I get from the people I invite are excuses: too hard, too far, too many arrows, and on and on.

Dave


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## toxoph (Mar 24, 2005)

Dave T said:


> I think I mentioned this before but I put on a monthly field shoot here. It's been going since October and I have yet to have a single longbow or recurve shooter (one Olympic recurve showed up one time) participate. I wouldn't care what kind of arrows they shoot, I'd just like to see someone give it a try. All I get from the people I invite are excuses: too hard, too far, too many arrows, and on and on.
> 
> Dave


Then our club must be an exception. We have a large contingent of Traditional shooters, recurves and longbows, we hold 2 regular shoots a month, a 900 and a 3D & Field. The Trad guys ALWAYS have a strong showing. As mentioned above, we have one of the top Traditional guys in the nation in our club, hes always there.

Gee...I wonder if shooting these "non-traditional" rounds helps him (and the other trad guys and gals) to be a top shooter! :wink:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dave - 

There you go, you're in the wrong state ... and you're old enough to move to Floridia - right :darkbeer: 

I'm tellin' ya see if you can setup a PAA (International) round, a little less imtimidating for new guys.

Viper1 out.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

toxoph said:


> Gee...I wonder if shooting these "non-traditional" rounds helps him (and the other trad guys and gals) to be a top shooter! :wink:



100% correct.


A few years after I started archery I moved house, the only archery course near me was a marked distance EFAA (NFAA to you) so I joined, this type of shooting made a huge difference to my unmarked 3D shooting. I would say shooting 4 arrows at each target at a wide range of known distances improves your shooting form helps you estimate distances easier and makes 3D rounds seem soooo easy.

After picking up 20+ National titles most of the time outshooting the Recurves and sometimes having a clear 100 point lead in the Longbow division many archers have wised up and started shooting marked EFAA rounds.........Now if I want to win, I have to really work for it


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*14 field*

I got out of the backyard and flew the coop. to my local archery range. I shot a 14 target nfaa field with ifaa longbow rules, D shaped 1 pc. with wood arrows and feathers.

I faded after the first 7 targets and my score started to plummet, I can see a bunch of room for improvement.

I shot a 169 14 target field half. I'll shoot another 14 or 28 next weekend.

BB


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

BB,

If you could keep that up for another 14 targets that would give you a 338. I think that's a pretty respectable score for a longbow and wood arrows. It's sure better than I could do with that equipment! (smiley face goes here)

I'm going to shoot a 28 target round today (14 field and 14 hunter). I shoot Barebow Recurve and need to break 400 or I'm having a bad day. Done a fair ammount of that "bad day" stuff lately. (LOL)

Dave


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

> I looked at the NAA Indoor nationals scores in the trad divisions... there were maybe 4 people who even shot it?


Well, that isn't really how to look at it -- the NAA has four categories that are all 'traditional' -- barebow, traditional recurve, modern longbow, and traditional longbow. Look at the scores for 'barebow' -- many of the top scores in that category came from guys shooting off-the-shelf -- can't get much more traditional than that.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

and one more note: barebow does not mean 'stringwalking' -- it just means you are shooting a recurve without a sight and you are not shooting wooden arrows. Although stringwalking is allowed, many barebow archers do not stringwalk.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

You guys need to get out to CA -- I have a good friend that shoots with a group of recurve shooters out there that seem to hit what they aim at. One had a combined 14 Field/14 hunter round of 479.

There is a 75 year old guy shooting a #40 BW longbow with wood arrows that regularly shoots in the high 300's on a 28 target Field Round. 

Guess all the good shooters are where the nice weather is 

Hank


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

AC, I doubt you'll find many NAA Barebow archers shooting off the shelf. Virtually all of them are shooting Olympic Risers with a button and flipper rest following the FITA definition of "barebow". At the NAA Traditional Nationals is about the only place you'll find recurve archers shooting off the shelf and they have to use wood arrows in that tournament, same as Modern Longbow and Traditional Longbow classes.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Have to agree with Hank. Found several parks in a single city (San Jose) where practice ranges were nestled into the hillsides, allowing you to shoot a fan of targets ranging from 15 yards out to 80 -- if you miss, just pluck the arrows from the hillside. You could get good out there


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Hi Floxter,

Haven't shot anywhere except Massachusetts -- here, I shot an old Browning Challenge against a couple of guys shooting Black Widows and, as you point out, one string walker -- who roundly outscored us. Next time...


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Hank, that's a little hard to believe since the IFAA World Record for Veteran Longbow set by Bob Wartenberg in 2004 is only 326 for a 28 target Field Round and 334 for a 28 target Hunter Round. Not saying it's not possible, just not probable.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Floxter,

I think Hank's referring to NFAA rounds, not IFAA.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Jason, it doesn't matter; NFAA and IFAA both shoot the same target, scored the same way, at the same distances. The only real difference is the IFAA recognizes some shooting styles that NFAA doesn't. But a Field/Hunter Round is the same for both. It would only be different if he was talking FITA Field.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Floxter,

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

These guys really don't compete anymore, they just enjoy shooting. Tournaments just mean who ever wins was the best out of the guys that showed up that day. Hard to justify flying across the country just to shoot a Field round with no prize money for some people.

I think the longbow guy was one time California State Champion many years ago.

I have shot about 8 or so Field Rounds (3 Tournaments) and got into the 360's shooting a recurve barebow. Still working on my form and working out the gaps at the various yardages.

Hank


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

The IFAA World Record for Barebow Recurve is 481 for a 28 target field round and 489 for a 28 target hunter round.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

IFAA barebow recurve stringwalking.

They have another category that might interest people: bowhunter recurve. It is the same as the NFAA traditional -- world records are somewhere around 450.


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

I'm in Northern California and it seems to me that things are better for traditional archery hereabouts that in most of the U.S. It sounds as if high level target archery may have more participants in Europe, in the traditional classes. In the western U.S. there are many who use the modern longbow, generally with reflex and deflex and flat limbs, often a 3 piece takedown to hunt big game. Many, many of these archers that I meet at 3D events hunt elk every year in nearby states, not content merely with deer, pigs and bears, and the odd antelope, mountain goat or mountain sheep. Some clubs' annual game feeds are amazing.

These archers, naturally, are more attuned to that sport than targets, and choose their tackle accordingly. And they are concerned with short ranges, to little more than 20 yards. Most clubs have field archery ranges to 80 yards, but the all-traditional events that draw the biggest turn-outs, from 150 to 400 archers, generally limit the distance of most shots to 45 yards and less, except for novelty targets, like giraffes, dinosaurs and whales. One of the best of them, the Western States Traditional Rendezvous, met in Idaho two years ago and, very interestingly, more than half of the entrants were women and children. What a charming development that was! This year they meet in the state of Washington.

But many of us shoot our traditional tackle over the full field archery course to 80 yards every week. (There is only one shot at 80 yards and two at 70, but plenty from 50 to 65.) And there are some archers that produce some fancy scores in both the longbow and recurve classes over the various target courses at the full distances, but not very many at a high standard.

Hereabouts we have three traditional styles, recurve (which lumps hunting and target designs together), longbow ( which requires wooden arrows in the north, but not in Southern California) and selfbow. At the shorter 3D events a selfbow shooter may well win overall, as many of our best archers prefer to whittle their own. At the full distance events, FITA recurves in skilled hands can score about 20% higher than the top longbows and hunting recurves. I score 20% higher with my FITA recurve than with my longbows, though I yearn to rectify that.

For my chum Dave T. I can only say that there is scant interest in skinwalking so he may be doomed to shoot with the block and tackle boys. Or, he may come to grasp the merit of a single anchor, and come in out of the cold. There are a couple of men hereabouts who have won national championships with 'walking' techniques, but they must mainly compete against wheeliebows locally.

How to gain more target converts? Well, by being good ambassadors, and setting good examples. Shoot the full distances, and show that it can be done. Shoot the short 3Ds but expect to be beaten now and then by a pure short draw instinctive hunter. Shoot the indoor events- a regular anchor with a 3 foot gap at 20 yards can win. Encourage anybody that shows an interest. I pick up cheap tackle at garage sales and on eBay to donate to likely prospects. Make yourself available as a coach and mentor, but with restraint.

We have a wonderful sport here, the first and oldest one, and we must nurture it through this tumultuos time. We owe that to our species and its struggling culture.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

longbowguy said:


> ...he may come to grasp the merit of a single anchor, and come in out of the cold.


Very funny, lbg! I'll have you know I started out with a single anchor. After going through my third or fourth dozen arrows (lost to the desert and rocks) I started experimenting with point of aim and multiple anchors.(LOL)

Since I am in the land of the Navajo, the term "skinwalking" had a rather negative connotation so I'll stick with the more proper Face Walking and just put up with the compounds. They make me try harder anyway and that's all for the good.(smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Dave,

I imagine you went through this too, experimenting with how to shoot barebow and still keep arrows on the bale from 11 yards out to 80. For me, to be able to shoot barebow field with a single anchor, I MUST have a point-on distance between 50 and 60 yards. This influences choice of anchors, weight of bow, and weight of arrows, at least. If I use a high anchor, I need a heavy bow and light arrows. If I have a low anchor, I can get by with a lighter bow and heavier arrows.

At one time, I had a setup that put me point-on at 80 yards. I could really nail the walkup! But between 40 and 50 yards, it was hard to keep the arrow on the bale 

The guys who own the records use a high anchor, heavy bows, and light arrows.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*field practice*

I made it to the archery range today and shot a round of 14 field targets. It was different than my last outing. This time I started off slow with lower scores, but then brought it up a bit and stayed steady. I felt more comfortable shooting the round and didn't tire towards the second 7 targets like I did last time. I will try to shoot a full 28 targets next time out.

There is still plenty of room for improvement. I shot a 170 for 14 field targets using ifaa longbow stuff, D shaped bow and wooden arrows.

I am seriously thinking of going to the World Championships this year. I've been checking out airfare and stuff like that. What does it take to be competitive in the longbow class?

I've let go of the idea of trying to break a World Record. I'd like to go there and have fun and check out what it's like to shoot in the World Championships. Does anyone know anything about the course layout?


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

ArcCaster,

Believe it or not, I find many combinations of my recurves and popular arrows too efficient. Even with my highest anchor (ring finger in corner of mouth) and three under my point of aim ends up under the target in the 10-20 yard range. I've gone to lighter weights or as heavy an arrow as I can get. All this to keep the point of the arrow somewhere in the vacinity of the target face.

Bebe,

If he doesn't post here, Larry Yien can be found over on the Stick Bow Target Archery site. He's going to the IFAA Worlds and probably knows the stuff you're asking about.

Dave


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

This is all getting overwhelming and I cannot believe what I did last night. I registered online for the World Field tournament in Australia and I bought an airplane ticket for Brisbane. I am actually going to Australia.ukey: 
This internet stuff is way too easy, I did find it tough to press that final button on buying the ticket. If I had to do things the old fashion way buying from a travel agent or even by phone I might of had some time to talk myself out of doing this!

I posted on the main forum here and got some information from some guys going to the tournament.

Now what? Practice...

Are any of you guys going, or have you gone? Any tips would be appreciated.


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*neo-field*

I'll slow down on the posting of scores since I don't want to overload the board with my field scores. I'll give more of a summary after this post.

I walked onto the range feeling a little tired, got to bed late last night around 3am. I had my Dad's dog with me for company and we hit the range. I shot some arrows at the practice butts and I was off.

I am feeling more comfortable on the field range with each day of practice. I wasn't as self conscious about my score this time around. Like I said I need a bunch more work. I felt strong through the whole 14 targets today and ended up with a 193. I really need to string some 28 target rounds together since I realize they take demand more mentally and physically. When I get to australia I want to be shooting well, but my goal is to have fun and meet some new archery friends.


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

Our shoots are a possible 300 score and we usually have a bonus. naturally, if your already at 300, it won't count. It just replaces your lowest score with whatever you shoot on it. If someone shoots above a 250, they have done very well. Most of our scores range from 190-220. The targets are difficult with obstructions in the way and having to cant your bow to avoid limbs and such. Not a compound type atmosphere where everything is wide open and straight up and down.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Bebe, sounds like you haven't shot a complete field archery round yet, but that your scores for half a course are approaching 200, shooting with longbow and wooden arrows?

What do you think are the main keys to shooting such scores?


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Bebe,

If you are shooting a longbow and wood arrows that 193 is an excellent score for 14 targets. If you can carry that pace for a full 28 target round that's a 386. I think that would make you a contender in longbow. Of course you have to string several 28 target rounds together for the Worlds, still it sounds like you are well on your way. Good luck!

Dave

PS: I didn't get to shoot 28 targets the other day as I had planned. Other obligations cut my time short so I only shot 14. Managed a 215 shooting Barebow (face walking). I need to get up to 225-230 for 14 targets if I'm going to ever make 450 for a full round of 28 field or hunter targets.

Dave


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## dcwhite55044 (Nov 6, 2003)

Interesting post and even more interesting replies. While I agree that you should strive to be the best you can be let's not forget that archery is just plain fun to do.

I kind of got the impression from the replies that dots were trying to be connected between competition and better scores. I guess I don't subscribe to this thought process. I believe that the spirit to excel lies within us. Some of us practice and practice and practice and experiment then practice some more. Others grab an arrow and shoot when they can (as time allows)......while others could give two craps and would shoot any arrow they find off any bow (no tuning, no matching of arrow to bow.....nothing etc.). 

I attribute lower scores to the following:

1 - Compound shooting has grown over the years and there are many more opportunities to improve your shooting. Not many traditional shops around.

2 - People have less time these days. Working harder and longer hours.

3 - The culture of the world is "quick fix." New houses, TEVO, diet pills, cars with navigation systems and alas....THE NET! :wink: Not many people want to put a lot of time and effort into anything. We are becoming a very lazy society and technology is not helping.

4 - People don't mind giving you advise on the net, but how many of us help each other in person. If someone is shooting poorly.....help them out instead of wondering why scores are low. Lots of people are self absorbed.

Ok....theres my Dr. Phil analysis. :wink:


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*no scores to post*

ukey: Like I stated above I won't post a score for today's shooting, which is easy since I didn't keep score today. I found a bunch of 5/16th arrows in my shop last night, I also made up some shorter 11/32nd arrows than what I had been shooting. I weighed them all out on a grain scale and shot them all looking to see which arrows grouped better out on the range. They grouped fairly similar but I noticed that I didn't get as much deviation from a bad release with my 5/16th arrows. The skinny arrows might be more forgiving. I am going to shoot this week with both sets of arrows and see what happens.

In regards to the scores I have posted previously, they are a small sample of what I will be shooting for the next couple months. I figure that 193 14 target field score is an aberration for now, but my goal will be to make those scores become more the norm. Arcaster asked what some of the main keys are to shooting those high scores. Hmmm, good question. 

Practice,practice,practice - form and technique. An emphasis on form and shot execution and less emphasis on aiming and where the arrow scores. Proper and consistent tempo. Patience in the shot. Shooting one arrow at a time and "one arrow one life". A willingness to be successful. Accepting the fact that I am not perfect. Is that enough keys for ya?:embara: 

I've been doing an exercise that itbeso shared and it has been a great strength and shot builder.

Hey, are you guys members of the Barebow Fraternity? If you aren't you should consider joining!


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Bebe,

I've never even heard of the "Barebow Fraternity". Please explain/advise...

Dave


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Nice answers, Bebe. And thanks for keeping us in the loop on your journey 

re: the 5/16 being more forgiving -- I have a traditional bow that I shoot off the shelf, so of course it has no center shot adjustment -- and it loves 5/16 and hates 11/32 -- I believe it is a question of what the bowyer tuned it for -- maybe your bow also does not like fat arrows. Doesn't seem as though 1/32 would make such a difference -- but it does!


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

I get the drift that this thread may be a dead horse at this point. But I thought I would post early week scores for this week and leave it at that.:zip: 

I took a week off of shooting due to Easter Break, and I got 2 unexpected days off yesterday and today and headed off to the range to shoot. Yesterday I shot a 14 target field half. I was playing around with different bow arm shoulder positions and noticed an improvement in alignment. I shot a 186 half.

Today I made it a point to shoot 28 targets after a good warm up, it was a could morning. I shot a 392, I was on a pace to break 400 but faded a bit on the last 7 targets. It still felt like a great round. My form is still a little ragged and I hope to clean it up as well a few other things before I head off to the Worlds in Australia. In reply, I am shooting a 1 piece long bow IFFA legal, wood arrows, med release. In reply to the BB fraternity, it is a club within the NFAA that promotes barebow archery, all kinds of barebows, not just the specific barebow style.:darkbeer:


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

*300 round barebow score*

well I shot a 300 round tonight in my backyard and shot 185, it was only the second time i shot this and more then anything I got a little bored at the end.
however I know a lot of guys shoot these so I ordered more single 18m faces and will try and shoot at least 2 300 rounds a week until I am over 200 consistently - I am not sure if that is a good score...
people could help me out if they shoot a similar set up and tell me what they get so I can compare apples to apples:

internature TD hunter recurve off the shelf with a glove (3 under) and the cheap carbon arrows from basspro with feathers I put on. oh it is a 50# bow.
if anyone is close to this set up let me know how you do regularly so I have some realistic goal to set.

Thanks!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mike - 

That's about average for a beginner, despite some of the claims we occassionally see on the web. 

For a reality check here are the old NFAA barebow classifications:

D (Archer) class < 189
C (Bowman) class 190 - 210
Expert B 211 - 249
Expert A 260 - 279
Expert AA 280 - 300.

(I may be off a little, been a few decades)

The equipment was never factored in. The only requirement was that it was shot without sights and release aids.

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Bebe,

As I understand these things, a 392 for 28 targets in IFAA Longbow class is a world record kind of score. If you can do that for the Field, the Hunter and the Animal rounds (Animal Rounds scores are most always higher) you could be a world champion.

Seriously, that is excellent shooting with a longbow and wood arrows.

Dave


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## wildebeast (Apr 15, 2006)

I shot in several field tournaments many years ago and it was great.

Knew most of the guys in the barebow class and at a big tournament in Casper Wy. everyone had camo paint on their bows but me. Just before the first round they had everyone put tape over the camo on the riser.

You should have seen all the scores drop for the top shooters, they had been using the paint for sites.

So just remember that if you shoot your bow enough I've seen guys use marks on the arrow and everything to get their scores higher in field tournaments.

cliff


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

oh my god!
I don't want to sound like a defeatist but shooting a 260 would need to be a life long daily commitment even with natural ability which I believe is vital.
you would need to have an average of 4.3 each arrow. in other words - of the 5 arrows per round you would need to stick on average 1.5 arrows in the bull each round and the rest must hit inside the 4 ring. 
I have to say that that is highly unrealistic for me to aspire to with the equipment I have. even if I aimed in the same spot and hit the same anchor and the wind was exactly the same each time, I doubt my bow and arrows could achieve a group under 6 - 8 inches at 20yards which in itself means that the best my bow can do without me is 260 or less.
like I said not to be a defeatist, but I think for me personally and for my equipment, I would rate anything over 220 at 20 yrds excellent.

What do others think?





Viper1 said:


> Mike -
> 
> That's about average for a beginner, despite some of the claims we occasionally see on the web.
> 
> ...


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mick -

Your bow can do it, almost *ANY* bow can. The arrows are another story, they have to matched pretty well to the bow and to each other. The other part is *all you*.

We didn't have many AA shooters back then, IIRC 3, maybe 4. And I think we all got there by having a couple of very lucky nights. There were more than few A class shooters though, and yes they were shooting target bows. Kinda made sense, as bowhunting season in NY back then was only 2 weeks, IIRC. (Oh, two of the AA shooters did it with hunting weight bows and yes, we did shoot A LOT  .)

BTW - A lot of guys on the web claim a (consistent) 6" group at 20 yds, some 4". Well, the 4 ring on that target is about 6". If you're getting 6" groups a few have to stray into the bullseye. That kinda means you'll be in the 250/260's. Thats why I have a little trouble believing the 6" internet group thing from guys who've never tried it ...

Viper1 out.


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

You shot 185 your first time out. If you practice, I wouldn't be surprised if you shot 220 this year.

260 will take a little longer -- less than a lifetime, though


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

arc - nope it was my second time, I am not posting my first score - I was nervous to say the least and i started playing with my form while shooting - that was stupid of me . thanks for the boost of confidence!


viper, I am thinking of buying a Quinn recurve for a few reasons: I heard they are very accurate, they are in my price range, and they are getting good reviews.
however if my internature is just as accurate then maybe I don't need to upgrade.. what do you think?

Thanks

Mc


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello MikeC,

Mike>>I am thinking of buying a Quinn recurve for a few reasons: I heard they are very accurate, they are in my price range, and they are getting good reviews.<<

You missed Vipers point.... ANY bow will do it, What CANNOT do it is YOU!
(PS. dont get mad, I am NOT done with this statement I will finish it on the next statement)

MikeC>>however if my internature is just as accurate then maybe I don't need to upgrade.. what do you think?<<

Bingo. This is what Viper is saying. It is up to YOU to shoot that bow to its fullest potential. Thus, A Dan Quillen bow will not make you a better shot, only you will make yourself a better shot. Thus a light bow, proper form, and good consistancy will maky you score in the 240's and 250's.

Now, with the above said, I must cover my 6 o'clock. I kinda( lied a little). When you get to a certain point, a better made bow will make the difference in your scores. But for most, its all about form.

DWayne


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Viper made one more point: good matched arrows make a difference. If you are focusing on 20 yards, a nice set of aluminum x7s will eliminate arrows as a variable -- then you can just focus on form


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mick -

I think Dwayne covered it pretty well.

The Quinns are NOT more accurate! They will draw smoother and shoot quicker. The smoother part will make it feel a little nicer, the speed at 20 yds is irrelevant. If you're looking for an upgrade, think about your arrows. As I said, make sure that they are matched to the bow and to each other - and that the bow is tuned correctly.

You might want to consider a rest if you're not already using one and a simple stabilizer (ala Home Depot). Again, they won't change the accuracy of the bow, they'll make it a little more tolerant of YOU!!! 

Can't say anthing bad about the Quinn bows. If you're serious about target shooting, you might want to look into a full ILF Olympic type bow. You can get used ones for a little more than the Quinn and it'll give you more options later on, especially in the limb department. If you're not thinking about serious target shooting, then the Quinns are a good bet. And - kinda important, if you "think" the bow is more accurate - you'll be more accurate with it. Sorry, that's the way we work.

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

MickC said:


> ...shooting a 260 would need to be a life long daily commitment...


Mick,

A couple years ago, when I was still trying to be an "instinctive" shooter, my best NFAA 300 score was a 171. Then I took the advice of two very experienced shooters and developed an aiming system. Once I had a way to aim consistantly I just worked on form and technique. Shot a 300 round on the patio this morning just for practice and got a 266. Wasn't a life long or daily commitment. Took about 2 years, and I'm getting old and slowing down. (smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

I am confused.
I think Viper kind of covered it though.

my bow and arrows are no way as accurate as an Olympic recurve and someone that has good arrows.

maybe I have a 260 form and its my equipment. 

maybe its just like golf clubs and golf balls - the more you pay the more accurate and more forgiving your equipment is.

poor equipment is not good for confidence or for form, I am sure that is true in any game or all the equipment would cost the same, or maybe that is naive and all those guys with black widows are chumps?

to be honest I don't care about bobinga limbs and cherry raisers unless they increase the distance and speed and accuracy of the bow.
I do care about shooting off the shelf and without sights for one of my bows, when I can afford it I would like to buy an Olympic recurve with all the bells and whistles
I have a nice compound bow rig and that shoots 3inch groups from 20yrds, it is so tight that I don't shoot at the same spot with more then 2 or 3 arrows because it wants to bang the arrows together and rip veins.

point is I think that the equipment + form = excellence if you count score. I really think that I am shooting good right now, and equipment is going to help me. I would also like an instructor that shoots instinctive - I will take anyone of those guys that shoots over 270


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mick - 

Sorry, if it sounds like we're giving you a hard time. Typing is a lot less clear than speaking face to face.

I don't recall the specs (including arrows) on the Internature rig. If you post them we might be able to make some suggestions on where to go next.

Now, a couple of things:

Your form. The ONLY way to find out how good (or bad) it is, is with a sight. (RELAX) The "sight" doesn't have to be expensive or even a real sight. I've gotten a lot of people started with the Viper5000 as my wife calls it. It's usually a discarded vane and a piece of masking tape stuck to the back of the riser. If your form is good, your arrows will be slapping each other, or be damn close. No question about, it as the "aiming" is taken out of the picture - it's all form. It comes as a shock to most people, but it's worth a try and won't cost you a cent.

A "full-blown" target rig - well ... isn't. A used Hoyt Gold Medalist + wood core limbs will set you back about $200 on the used market. You can start with the same $3.00 stick-on rest we usually recommend, the stab can come from Home Depot and might cost you 50 cents. The rest of the stuff comes later on. As your form develops, the bow will tell you what you need and how to tune it. It's usually a bad idea to walk into a store and buy a "full-blown" Olympic rig without knowing how to exploit all the bells and whistles.

I gotta tell ya, I've missed very few shots because of equipment or aiming, but I've missed A LOT because of bad form (or glitches). Without a sight (or physical aiming method) as a reality check, no way of telling.

Viper1 out.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello MikeC,

MikeC>>I really think that I am shooting good right now, and equipment is going to help me. I would also like an instructor that shoots instinctive - I will take anyone of those guys that shoots over 270 <<

Ok, you have got one... I have never shot a 280, but shot plenty of 270+ scores when I competed. I bet DaveT has shot 270+ scores too... I bet Viper has shot 270+ scores too.

Your present bow will allow you to shoot well over 240.. Well over 260.

Yes, you are shooting good. But you are not shooting beyond your equipment, or even close to it. I have shot in the Mid 270's plenty of times...But when I stood next to Ron or Maggie (both were national champions), they tood the exact same bow of mine and scored in the 280's. Is it the equipment that keeps me from shooting that long desired 280? Or, is it my form and what it is lacking...Something that Ron and Maggie have and I don't?

Just something to think about...

And Viper is right... There *is* that mental thing... If you think it is your equipment, you probably will not shoot to your potential. Since I can't shoot that 280, my Sky bow must be defective and inaccurate...:wink: 

Dwayne


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Viper,



> It's usually a discarded vane and a piece of masking tape stuck to the back of the riser. If your form is good, your arrows will be slapping each other, or be damn close. No question about, it as the "aiming" is taken out of the picture - it's all form. It comes as a shock to most people, but it's worth a try and won't cost you a cent.


 Bingo. Well said. That nails it to the wall and places it in black and white.
Many folks don't realize that a "release" takes a whale of a lot out of archery. And switching from release to fingers is a whole new ballgame. Then working with a variable drawlength, instead of a "wall". Working with the full wieght being pulled, instead of 70 percent letoff...a measily 15 pounds instead of 2,3,4, or maybe 5 times that much with a traditional bow. Add in the idea of no sights, no stablizers, and possibly no rest to adjust or dampen your slight mistakes.

Dwayne


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

> my bow and arrows are no way as accurate as an Olympic recurve and someone that has good arrows.


The advantages I see in shooting an Olympic bow are: that it is more easily 'tuned' -- so, if you shoot a traditional bow, when you match arrows to your form and to the bow, it will take a little longer. No big deal. And, the Olympic bow is designed to shoot the same in all temperatures -- important if you are standing out in an open field for your competitions. Maybe they get a little accuracy by hanging stabilizers all over the place; maybe at 90 meters they get more consistent draw length (and hence long-range accuracy) by using a clicker. But you aren't shooting 90 meters -- and whether you have an Olympic bow or a traditional bow, you are not hanging stabilizers all over your bow. An olympic bow will not make you more accurate.


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

Not at all! If i didn't want feedback I wouldn't post.

but you are scaring me how much we think alike.

I thought the same thing about a sight!
I bought an old compound bow to see if I would like it from ebay ($60 with shipping) it came with a three pin sight, so I screwed it on my internature TD Hunter and I sighted it in in my basement at 14 yrds.

my groups significantly reduced in size, at least 2 inches - so it can not be the bow or the form (well not the major issue right now) but it must be that I am not consistently aiming at the same spot all the time.

side note... the sight i have does not go low enough to be placed on the center spot at 20yrds - I will start a new thread to discuss this...





Viper1 said:


> Mick -
> 
> Sorry, if it sounds like we're giving you a hard time. Typing is a lot less clear than speaking face to face.
> 
> ...


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

I thought you guys were all Olympic shooters!!

ok well then what is your equipment and what should I be working on... I shoot everyday for at least 45mins - I could shoot another hour without fatigue but apparently "I have to" spend time with my kids. I knew they were only going to interfere with my professional backyard target shooting 





DwayneR said:


> Hello MikeC,
> 
> MikeC>>I really think that I am shooting good right now, and equipment is going to help me. I would also like an instructor that shoots instinctive - I will take anyone of those guys that shoots over 270 <<
> 
> ...


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Primarily, I shoot two bows -- a Bob Lee signature recurve (off the shelf) and a stripped down Olympic bow (Zenit riser, Synerzy limbs). The main reason I went to the Olympic bow was for ease of tuning -- I wanted to shoot ACCs with Kurly Vanes, and no matter how I tried, could not get good clearance shooting off the shelf. If I were shooting feathers, the Bob Lee would be fine.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello MickC,

MickC>>I thought you guys were all Olympic shooters!!<<

I can't speak for everyone, but I do both. I hunt and I shoot Olympic style bows.

I have about a dozen or so bows... Mostly different poundages of the Sky Gold Medalists. Then I have my Hunting bows... They consist of a PSE Talon, a Mamba, and a stick bow. I even had a hunting bow that IS a Sky Medalist.

During most of the off season hunting, I stick with my Olympic Recurves with an occasional hunting bow shoot. As it gets closer to hunting, I shoot more often with my Mamba. My minimum weight hunting bow is 45 pounds. My highest is 50 pounds. (Big range eh???<g>)

MickC>>ok well then what is your equipment <<

Already told you <g>

MickC>>and what should I be working on... I shoot everyday for at least 45mins - I could shoot another hour without fatigue but apparently "I have to" spend time with my kids. I knew they were only going to interfere with my professional backyard target shooting <<

Well heck Mick, you missed the ENTIRE POINT AGAIN! get those KIDS a BOW!! <chuckle> That way you can extend your shooting time:wink: It doesn' have to be a expensive one... a 5 dollar garage sale one with a bail about 2 to 3 yards away, or at a distance they can shoot and have fun at.

What you should be working for?

1. EVERY SHOT COUNTS. Flinging arrows and boring holes in the sky hap-hazardly is worthless. It is better to have 5 good shots than 100 flings.

2. Hindsight is 20/20. REMEMBER THAT! If you have a bad shot, FORGET IT!!! laugh at it and say life goes on. concentrate on what you CAN do in the future, NOT what you CAN'T change! I remember once in competition (6,7 years back) I was shooting...Something happened...(Yeah, one of those glitches). I missed the WHOLE DARN TARGET! (I mean I didn't get even the ONE RING!...still placed 8th in the nation, but...boy I was ticked off.

3. Aim for a TARGET when you are shooting to see your accuracy. Some folks aim at a bail shoot 2 or 3 arrows, and say "My arrows grouped within 2 inches, I am satisfied" In reality that doesn't mean fecus. Blank bailing is wonderful for form practice. Putting a target at 20 yards and aiming for a bullseye is totally different. Paper does NOT lie. I have seen so many so-called archers come here and say "My arrows group 3" all the time". I say BULL! Then I find out they are shooting only 2 or 3 arrows at a blank bail, and saying "yeah, they are grouping". In reality, these same people (when challenged) never report back with their "Paper" score. (In other words, they probably can't even shoot as good as you are doing right now!).


4. Now the tough one... How many arrows to shoot. This is different for each one of us. *I* like to shoot 2 rounds of 300. which is 120 arrows each day if I can. But reality sets in  I also like to do Each of the 60 rounds non-stop. (no coffee breaks, dinner breaks, or out of the ordinary breaks). Whether there is a dinner inbetween the rounds or something else, it doesn't matter. Sometimes I do them back to back. But all in all, I will have at LEAST two 60 rounds, and probably another 50 or so arrows more minimum.

Is this the best way? Some people say yes, some people say no. But what I strive to do, is keep my muscles warm throughout the entire 60 arrows, so that I know I am pressing my muscles for strength, yet not tiring them or keeping them cold.

Dwayne


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mick - 

First, you're lucky that you can shoot everyday! Three times a week is the most I can get out these days.

I've been been doing this a while, and don't think you want to know how many bows I have collected. 

My current everyday bow is a Hoyt Aerotec, usually with #40 limbs at my draw, but I can reconfigure beteen #36 and #50 by changing limbs and tiller. It's usually shot barebow and I use one long front stab. (Except for my longbows, almost every bow I shoot (target and hunting bows) is fitted with a stabilizer.

Yes, I also shoot it and a few others in full FITA/Olympic configuration, sights, clickers etc, but prefer barebow.

I'd work with the sight at 20 yds if possible and see how your groups go there. If you can't get the pin that low, I'll wait for the "other" thread to work on that.

Dwayne is giving you good advice, but same problem, without seeing you shoot, it's hard to figure out what you need to work on.

Viper1 out.


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

Alright V and D you guys are asking for it so here, ok not sure if you are or not but would like to take you up on your offer to help my game.
you seem to always have something to say but I think that I may not be getting my point across and in the end I just want to be the best. I don' think that that is a lot to ask. I have concluded that i can't get there alone and i would like some one that is hammering the white part of those blue targets at 20yrds!
sooo what I would like to do is post some video of me shooting and then get feed back. Are you guys up for that? I will post it to my website send you the address and you can look at it whenever you want and give me feed back...
I would love to hear from 270 shooters!


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello MickC,

Mick>>I think that I may not be getting my point across and in the end I just want to be the best. I don' think that that is a lot to ask. I have concluded that i can't get there alone and i would like some one that is hammering the white part of those blue targets at 20yrds!
sooo what I would like to do is post some video of me shooting and then get feed back. Are you guys up for that? I will post it to my website send you the address and you can look at it whenever you want and give me feed back...
I would love to hear from 270 shooters!<<

I will take a look...

Make sure of one thing...Take your videos in your natural shooting ability. I dont' want to see "Butter-up" I got to look good for the camera stuff. Many folks who do this, unconciensely straighten up some of their bad habits, because they know they are being "filmed".

I would tell you what I am looking for, but I don't want to "sway" your form, because you know of these things. Now, with this info that I am NOT telling you, I WILL SAY, I have POSTED this info to another archer a few months back. Please do not do a search until after the video. 

Dwayne


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

In response to Ibetso's original question on this thread, I thought I might relate a little story. Among the many leagues we have at our club are two: one is a barebow target league composed exclusively as the name implies of barebow compound and stickbow shooters, no sights or releases; the other is a bowhunter 3D league composed exclusively of fully tricked out compound shooters with scopes, releases, and long stabilizers. I shoot on the barebow league and last week we held a challenge match against the bowhunter compound league. The indoor round we shot consisted of twenty arrows at 20yrds, 20 arrows at 15yrds, another 20 arrows at 20yrds, and finally 20 arrows at 25yrds, for a total of 80 arrows, all shot on a Michigan Archery Association face similar to an NFAA face scored 5-4-3-2-1. A perfect score = 400. Since only 9 of the bowhunters showed up for the challenge, we took the top nine scores from the barebow shooters and averaged them against the nine bowhunter scores; no handicaps involved, just straight up scores against scores. The result: Barebows = 336, Bowhunters = 371. What this means is that the bowhunters, even with all the tricked out gear of drop-away rests, backtension releases, scopes and stabilizers, only shot 10% higher scores than the barebow compounds, recurves, and longbows. I'd say it shows that barebow archery is alive and well, at least in this little corner of the earth.


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

haha I don't' know what is right and what is wrong so it will be all the same to me. I will shoot a few ends and edit them together I will take them from different angles - my back, my front, in front of shooting line, and behind so you can see really what I am doing!!!
ok no cheating I get it - I will warm up with a few rounds though.

I will post this in a week or sooner, thanks!!




DwayneR said:


> Hello MickC,
> 
> Mick>>I think that I may not be getting my point across and in the end I just want to be the best. I don' think that that is a lot to ask. I have concluded that i can't get there alone and i would like some one that is hammering the white part of those blue targets at 20yrds!
> sooo what I would like to do is post some video of me shooting and then get feed back. Are you guys up for that? I will post it to my website send you the address and you can look at it whenever you want and give me feed back...
> ...


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

*brutal day at the range*

First off, thanks guys for picking up this thread again, I thought it wasn't of interest but really see it taking a turn with 20 yard talk as well as form and technique talk. 

I had a tough day on the range today and while I was walking the last few targets of a 28 target field round I reflected on the positives and negatives of the day. I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on the matter as I would like to learn and become a better archer. 

I'll try to give an accurate picture of my flop! I worked a half day and had about 2 hours of free time before I had to pick up my kids from school, my thoughts were a bit scattered as I was thinking about problems at work, income taxes, and vacation time this summer. I rushed to the range and went right to target 15 I had about 1.5 hours at the range, breaking the first rule, *Always warm up and stretch before shooting a round*. I felt okay shooting and aligned my shoulder and bow arm before predraw, something I had tried and liked last practice session. I also decided to try focusing on the shot, rather than on aiming. 

I never felt settled today, probably because I only had an hour and a half to shoot 28 targets, which is doable but a bit rushed. Thus breaking another rule, *Don't rush the shot.*, well actually, I didn't feel like I was rushing my shots but I was hurrying in between. After about 7 targets I started losing that sense of shooting strong shots and my form started to fall apart. Funny thing was I had a heck of a time getting back into the groove. I kept thinking about the last poor shot and what I did wrong rather than shooting a perfect shot. It took me a while to pull out of my tail spin. Another broken rule, *One arrow, one life*. There is one more rule that I rarely abide by so it really isn't a rule for me but I know others pay heed to the idea of if you are shooting poorly you should stop shooting and pack it up for the day. I had a poor 14 targets, but I had this dying urge to work on it more and I had just enough time to shoot another 14 targets before picking up the kids. How many rules did I break?:embara: 

My scores were much lower than what I have been shooting, and I knew I would have some flucation between days, I am hoping that the amplitude will lessen between my highs and lows. The positives I took from today were:
-Warm up and stretch before shooting a round
-Don't rush while shooting. It's okay to hurry in between targets but while at the shooting position the tempo should be even keel.
-One arrow one life, once the arrow is shot it is gone, don't dwell on it.
-If I am shooting poorly I go back to the basics and shoot till I have a strong shot again. I don't like to end on a crappy shot.
-In the very least I shot a good round for endurance, slammin 28 targets in 1 1/2 hours.
+note to self, try to find some techniques to pull myself out of a tailspin quickly, more positively stated, figure out a way to get back into form after faltering.

Now for my less than spectacular scores, low but there is still hope.
1st half 143, 2nd half 151 for a 28 target total of 294.

I welcome any suggestions or comments on my hack of an attempt at prepping for an international World Championships.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Mick - 

Sure post the videos. As Dwayne said, don't show us "your doctored best". show a full end of five arrows. Do it twice. once full broadside, and once 3/4 rear of braodside. That will give us the best view.

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Bebe,

I've been where you were more times than I care to remember. You've already identified most of your mistakes (breaking of rules as you put it). The only things I would add are, be careful you aren't practicing mistakes when you don't "pack it in" but continue. That can be really hard to over come. Second, I am trying to learn the lesson of not being in a hurry. If I don't have time for a full 28 target round, I try to shoot a really good 14 target round. Some good practice/training is better than twice that ammount of mediocre pracitce.

My $.02 worth,
Dave


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

MickC -- a couple of things on the Quinns. As far as the quality of the limbs, Bob Gordon (3D Recurve Pro that has been shooting for 50 years) tested a set of Quinn limbs against a set of carbon/foam OLY limbs. The Quinn limbs were glass/maple and were 1 pound lighter. Shot through the chrono the OLY limbs were 210 fps and the Quinn limbs were 208. The only difference he could detect was the sound they made when shot. David Sosa, maker of the DAS Recurve said that the Quinn limb is possibly the finest wood/glass limb being made today.

The limb angle on the Quinn Comet XL is straighter out of the riser which enhances performance, but the grip was pushed slightly forward to maintain stability.

A guy out east owns a DAS (considered by many, the finest hunting recurve made today) and set of ACS CX limbs (considered by many as the best longbow limbs out there) mounted on a riser ok'd by O L Adcock. His goal was to break 260 and had been trying for a month or so. He was the first one to try out the Quinn Road Show bow (Tradtalk.com members can sign up and try out this Quinn bow for just the cost to ship it to the next guy) and his first time shooting for score he shot his highest and the second time broke 260.

Lots of good bow options out there and the Quinn is just one of them. Getting lots of good advice on here, as well.

Hank


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## ArcCaster (Oct 29, 2003)

You are asking the right questions.

Your form WILL leave you from time to time. Question is, how quickly can you get back in form, in the middle of competition, where every experiment may cost you points.
If you can answer that question, you will be a fine competitor.


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## MickC (Feb 26, 2006)

Thanks hank, I need to try one out I hate to buy something and not like it!

I think that for the price the quinns are great from what i have heard..




Hank said:


> MickC -- a couple of things on the Quinns. As far as the quality of the limbs, Bob Gordon (3D Recurve Pro that has been shooting for 50 years) tested a set of Quinn limbs against a set of carbon/foam OLY limbs. The Quinn limbs were glass/maple and were 1 pound lighter. Shot through the chrono the OLY limbs were 210 fps and the Quinn limbs were 208. The only difference he could detect was the sound they made when shot. David Sosa, maker of the DAS Recurve said that the Quinn limb is possibly the finest wood/glass limb being made today.
> 
> The limb angle on the Quinn Comet XL is straighter out of the riser which enhances performance, but the grip was pushed slightly forward to maintain stability.
> 
> ...


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