# If you could change one rule



## PET (May 21, 2003)

If you could change one rule or format on a NFAA field/hunter/animal tournament what would it be?

Mine would be practice times... seems like if your not their an hour or more early then getting a spot to shoot before a tournament is not easy, not to mention some feel like they have to shoot a quiver full of arrows. 
Their should be a time limit (timer like indoors) after that the next person in line does the same and you go to the back of a yardage line and wait your next turn. How many of you yell pull and there's always a few who shoot more arrows?


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

I Would have to agree,I think I have even been guilty of that.Sorry to whomever! LOL


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

If I had one "rule" to change it would be that Field14 can't talk about tech toys and 12 hour days on the range!!!!! :wink::wink::wink: Ken


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

When I want to take a nap at work its just what I need to fall asleep.Please dont take that away.Laughing with ya Field14!


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

I BOW 2 said:


> If I had one "rule" to change it would be that Field14 can't talk about tech toys and 12 hour days on the range!!!!! :wink::wink::wink: Ken


Amen!


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Either get rid of the dot on the animal target or at least move the dot to a location that would cost the archer dearly for a miss but reward for a hit. JMHO


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Better yet, get rid of the animal target altogether .

And while at it, also get rid of the 2 arrow walk-ups on the hunter round (just pick a distance and shoot all 4) and no more fans (single stake the current distances).

Plus revise the indoor pass-thru rule to mimic the outdoor, or in other words, in the case of a pass-thru indoors allow the arrow to be pushed back and scored as it lays in the target rather than requiring all pass-thrus to be re-shot. Works for outdoor scoring, not sure why indoors should be treated any differently.

>>----->


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## WIHoyt (Nov 22, 2004)

I agree jeff or the NFAA could buy some new indoor bales and stop using the junk bails they keep hauling around. I guess Ill just keep shooting 
3D.


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

But then your dues would increase for the new targets!! If you really wanted to speed up the round get rid of all of the walk ups and fans??? Ken


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## doukima270 (May 18, 2007)

No more animal round, but it has to start at the club level I hate going to a shoot shoot 28 feild and then go back out and shoot 28 more animal make for a long day. 

Hunter round one stake make them all odd yardages. 

I like Safari's just shoot you 2 arrows walk up and score, then on to the next.


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## WIHoyt (Nov 22, 2004)

I BOW 2 said:


> But then your dues would increase for the new targets!! If you really wanted to speed up the round get rid of all of the walk ups and fans??? Ken


Go up? Thats cheaper than ruining X10's shooting through their junk bails. According to my losses just at yankton they can raise them $60 and Ill still be money ahead


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Well we don't want to shoot less arrows in the day, just a shorter time frame for most folks.
WiHoyt did your arrows break after they went through the bales or did they fall on them?? Ken


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

Id like to see the 30 min practice on your lane before your 2 practice ends standard and make everyone shoot fsl lol :mg:.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I BOW 2 said:


> If I had one "rule" to change it would be that Field14 can't talk about tech toys and 12 hour days on the range!!!!! :wink::wink::wink: Ken


But, ken.....the fieldman doesn't say TWELVE hour days on the range....just gets torqued off when people complained in the past that 4 1/2 hours was TOO LONG...and now, suddendly, 5-6 hours is a RUSH JOB! Hypocritical, IMHO> Of course then there is the same thing with 3-D...a few years back, the "changelings" from field to 3-D were complaining that 4 -5 hours to shoot 112 shots was TOO LONG and they didn't want to be out there "all day" on a field course....but looky see now....they are taking 4 hours sometimes to shoot TEN SHOTS...and few are complaining about it. 6-7 hours for 40 shots in a major shoot is also common. Yeah, I know, times have changed, but IMHO....people don't NEED more than 5 hours or 6 hours to shoot 28 field...they are just choosing to TAKE IT, and the time will continue to increase until someone puts their foot down and makes a TIME RULE for completion of the round (with some room for the tournament chair to make dispensation for weather conditions, etc.).

Now to the SUBJECT of the thread...one rule to change.

The rule I would want to change, and actually did submit an agenda item on, is:: On the bunny target...each shooter shoots a vertical row, but is allowed to shoot that VERTICAL row in any order they want to. In other words, instead of being forced to shoot top to bottom or bottom to top in order, the shooter can shoot them in any order..but MUST stay in that VERTICAL row. ONE arrow only per target face in the vertical row, however.

I know the argument is about a "mis-set" site...but it would be rare indeed for someone to nail an X or a solid "5" in the 2nd target up from the bottom or down from the top when aiming at the top or bottom target....TIMES HAVE CHANGED, and shooters today aren't that inaccurate.

In addition, it would make the transition from INDOOR shooting the 5-spot to shooting the field targets consistent. Indoors it doesn't matter which of the 5-spots you shoot when, so why on the bunny should it be any different in this day and age?

One other "rule" change...only affects the SENIOR and Master Senior divisions: The SENIORS and MASTER SENIORS get to shoot all four arrows from the CLOSEST STAKE on each target...which includes the CUB STAKES! Afterall, many of us seniors/master seniors are routinely accused of "being in our 2nd childhood", so why not allow us the luxury of shooting up close and personal?

field14


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

For a 4 shooter group doing a 28 target field round shooting two and two and not being rushed to race through flinging arrows willy nilly, a time of 7 hours seems about right.


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## fastarrows (Feb 10, 2003)

*?*

i would like to replace the faces 20 yards + in we would shoot the bunny face. do away with the 80 walk up + shoot 4 at 70 yards.


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

CHPro said:


> Better yet, get rid of the animal target altogether .
> 
> And while at it, also get rid of the 2 arrow walk-ups on the hunter round (just pick a distance and shoot all 4) and no more fans (single stake the current distances).
> 
> ...


most indoor ranges you can't get behind backstop to push arrow thru.......


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> most indoor ranges you can't get behind backstop to push arrow thru.......


So you're saying you just have to leave that arrow in the target butt someplace and go on shooting . I'm referring to places where pass-thrus can be pushed back, like Nationals, and other locations where the shooting lanes are not set up as a permanent wall (i.e. archery shops and clubs). Most of those places with the permanent walls its not an issue since the plywood and/or rubber backing behind the bales is usually sufficient to keep the arrow from passing completely through .

>>------>


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

The only problem with pushing the arrow back through is if it was a liner "x" where 1/1000 of an inch matters and it’s called out. The way the indoor round is you might as well pack your stuff up and go home. The archer should have the choice of pushing it back through or shooting after everyone else is done. That way no one can complain.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FS560 said:


> For a 4 shooter group doing a 28 target field round shooting two and two and not being rushed to race through flinging arrows willy nilly, a time of 7 hours seems about right.


In multiple tournaments I have shot in the past, including Nationals and Sectionals, we shot 2x2 most of the time (excepting fans), and we NEVER even went longer than 5 hours...let alone 6 or 7. So what is this "rush job" if it takes less than 7 hours NOW? We shoot the same number of arrows, the same number of people in a group. There are FEWER shooters in the tournaments, and the ranges are the same...and lots of the newer ones are flatter than in the past.

So, what gives that now, all of a sudden people NEED more than 6 and push 7 or more hours for the same thing they did in under 5 just a few years ago?

The bows are supposedly more accurate, the arrows are allowing people to shoot with more speed, and the bows are also way easier to pull back and hold than they were in the past.

TO ME...I find it unacceptable to take over 5 (maybe give to 5.5) hours to shoot a 28 target field or hunter round....that is ridiculous, IMHO. People pee and moan about being out there all day...but they are the perpetrators of the entire problem...they want to shoot faster and take longer...so now they are going aftef FEWER arrows and targets...and will end up taking the same amount of time for LESS...until someone (we) put the foot down and call it enough and establish a ROUND TIME LIMIT...put it where you will...make it 6 hours...fine...but the ROUND TIME LIMIT is going to be coming....if it doesn't, then people better start planning now to be out from 9AM til dark...cuz some people will start to push it that far.

The org wants to shorten the time limit for the indoor rounds and "rush" those...while at the same time slowing down the outdoors..and calling it a "rush job" if it is less than 7 hours.....doesn't make any sense.

The org should mayhaps tell people to plan on being on the range ALL DAY...from 9AM 'til near dark...so that they can fill up their cool stools and portable units. That way, those that really don't want to be on the range "all day long" can better prepare for the inevitable. We certainly don't want to "hear" or listen to people whining and complaining about being out on the range in the heat and humidity "all day long" now do we? Could use hearing protectors or shut off the sound receptors.

field14


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

CHPro said:


> So you're saying you just have to leave that arrow in the target butt someplace and go on shooting . I'm referring to places where pass-thrus can be pushed back, like Nationals, and other locations where the shooting lanes are not set up as a permanent wall (i.e. archery shops and clubs). Most of those places with the permanent walls its not an issue since the plywood and/or rubber backing behind the bales is usually sufficient to keep the arrow from passing completely through .
> 
> >>------>


What to do about bales falling over forwards....and those arrows being totally displaced and some destroyed...and then "counting" them as they lie when the bale is picked back up? That isn't/wasn't right either. Those arrows were totally disturbed and it was no fault of the shooters involved...but they lost the points AND their expensive arrows to boot.

I agree that IF there is room behind those indoor bales to push 'em back thru, then it should be done, however. It normally isn't going to happen in archery shop ranges or local clubs, since so few have the room to spare. Sure hear a lot of "howling" when an arrow does penetrate and hit the board/belting at the back however. People don't want pass thrus period...whether they stay in the target and slam the wall, or just penetrate up to the vanes...pass thrus torque most shooters off big time.

field14


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> But, ken.....the fieldman doesn't say TWELVE hour days on the range....just gets torqued off when people complained in the past that 4 1/2 hours was TOO LONG...and now, suddendly, 5-6 hours is a RUSH JOB! Hypocritical, IMHO> Of course then there is the same thing with 3-D...a few years back, the "changelings" from field to 3-D were complaining that 4 -5 hours to shoot 112 shots was TOO LONG and they didn't want to be out there "all day" on a field course....but looky see now....they are taking 4 hours sometimes to shoot TEN SHOTS...and few are complaining about it. 6-7 hours for 40 shots in a major shoot is also common. Yeah, I know, times have changed, but IMHO....people don't NEED more than 5 hours or 6 hours to shoot 28 field...they are just choosing to TAKE IT, and the time will continue to increase until someone puts their foot down and makes a TIME RULE for completion of the round (with some room for the tournament chair to make dispensation for weather conditions, etc.).
> 
> Now to the SUBJECT of the thread...one rule to change.
> 
> ...


Do I understand correctly? You think you should be able to shoot either top to bottom or bottom to top. Well the rules state that you can EITHER shoot top to bottom or bottom to top. It does not state whether you will shoot inside or outside but does state verticle row either top to bottom or bottom to top in order. HOWEVER, if you think that you can shoot in any order then WHY. Lets face it how many times over the years have you seen an archer walk up to the bunny and not set his sight and shoots at the bottom target and hits one of the targets above where he was aiming. Your plan gives that archer an out and allows for that arrow to not be lost.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

If I could change one rule, it would force Rattleman to return from the darkside....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Do I understand correctly? You think you should be able to shoot either top to bottom or bottom to top. Well the rules state that you can EITHER shoot top to bottom or bottom to top. It does not state whether you will shoot inside or outside but does state verticle row either top to bottom or bottom to top in order. HOWEVER, if you think that you can shoot in any order then WHY. Lets face it how many times over the years have you seen an archer walk up to the bunny and not set his sight and shoots at the bottom target and hits one of the targets above where he was aiming. Your plan gives that archer an out and allows for that arrow to not be lost.


No, I do NOT "think" that you can shoot "any order"..I KNOW better than that.
You ask how many times have I seen a person not set his site and shoots at the bottom target and hits an X on the next one or two UP from that..>NEVER ONCE...in the "X" ring! NEVER ONCE! And a "5"...less than a hanfull in over 40 years of shooting field/hunter rounds...too many variables! Hit the TARGET....YES...but getting more than a "3" or a "4"....nope.

Same thing happens INDOORS...A person can shoot two at the same target spot...or shoot ANY SEQUENCE he wants, and as long as it is on his "target mix" it is just fine and dandy...even if he was out of his "sequence" that he normally shoots.

I strongly feel that with today's shooters so much more ACCURATE than they were in the past, that you should be able to make the choice of which target on the VERTICAL ROW you want to shoot first...be it the 2nd one down, the third one down, the bottom or the top...and as long as you shoot only ONE arrow in each of the four VERTICAL spots that are "yours" things are just fine.

You ain't likely to shoot a "5" nor especially an "X" if you mis-set your site or forget to set it from the previous target...ain't gonna happen, and if it does, it is a miracle...too many other variables...such as: What was the last target? A 65? a 50? a 45? a 20? a 15? NONE of these are likely to give you an X or "5" if you've forgotten to set your site or you are aiming at the bottom one and hit the next one up. So what? You'll be lucky to pull a "3" on it.

One other one that is unnecessary today, unless you are shooting the same 14 target unit TWICE in the same day...is the changing of top to bottom and bottom to top? WHY? Let the group decide who will shoot where...and for the ENTIRE 28 TARGETS...It is ludicrous to have the "changeover" out on a field course...and TECHNICALLY...you can end up changing 3 times in the course of the round...depending upon which target number you start on.

Let us pick a target...say bottom left...and shoot there the entire round. Don't gimme that stuff about "advantages" to the top or bottom target shooters....that only comes to play IF you are shooting the same 14 target unit twice around in the same day. It ain't like the TWO 14 target units on any course are identical. It could be an ADVANTAGE to have the change....to one pair of shooters over the others.

Just some more "archaic" rules that are unnecessary and could stand to be changed. I don't have a problem with the "target change" from top to bottom indoors, because FOR SURE..INDOORS....you are at the SAME location and height of targets for the full round, and it is level ground throughout. But outdoorss... NAH....

Still think that 7 hours shooting 2X2 is nonsense and totally unnecessary. It isn't even close to being "about right." THAT has changed within the past 5 years...and I personally see no reason for it to be going that direction at all. To me, and IMHO...under 4 hours would be a RUSH JOB...but over 5 hours is akin to taking all day.

field14


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Ok Field then what would you have as a rule if someone shoots the wrong 4 face target with only 1 arrow. The archer shoots 3 in the correct target then 1 in the wrong target. I thought this was why we have the rules. These rule are in place because someone has commited the error and it needed to be addressed. Just friendly communication not trying to get anyone riled up.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Unclegus said:


> If I could change one rule, it would force Rattleman to return from the darkside....


My friend believe me when I say that if my fingers worked like they use to then I never would have left. I am shooting about the same scores that I did 10 years ago but now with a release. But my hat is off to you for sticking with it for so long. I'll see you in Mechanicsburg later this month. By the way whatever happened to Randy????


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

field14 said:


> No, I do NOT "think" that you can shoot "any order"..I KNOW better than that.
> You ask how many times have I seen a person not set his site and shoots at the bottom target and hits an X on the next one or two UP from that..>NEVER ONCE...in the "X" ring! NEVER ONCE! And a "5"...less than a hanfull in over 40 years of shooting field/hunter rounds...too many variables! Hit the TARGET....YES...but getting more than a "3" or a "4"....nope.
> Same thing happens INDOORS...A person can shoot two at the same target spot...or shoot ANY SEQUENCE he wants, and as long as it is on his "target mix" it is just fine and dandy...even if he was out of his "sequence" that he normally shoots.
> 
> ...


Just to let you know. This evening I shot the longest bunny for 40 yards at the bottom target and it hit the bottom of the 5 ring in the target just above. This was done in practice and just for this thread. My bow shoots a ACC 328 at about 243 FPS.
I know of at least one range here in maryland that has just this set up. Had I done this in an actual tourney the person that I am shooting against just got screwed because I circumvented the rules that should be.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Ok Field then what would you have as a rule if someone shoots the wrong 4 face target with only 1 arrow. The archer shoots 3 in the correct target then 1 in the wrong target. I thought this was why we have the rules. These rule are in place because someone has commited the error and it needed to be addressed. Just friendly communication not trying to get anyone riled up.


I am speaking ONLY of the "Bunny" lineup of the Vertical row...it has nothing to do with a person shooting 3 into his "assigned" top left target (for example) and then shooting one into the top right or bottom left...those are ZEROES.

I am discussing CHANGING the rule for the Bunny to allow you to shoot them in ANY ORDER as long as you shoot ONE arrow into each of the targets in your VERTICAL column.
....Until the rule would be changed....you must comply and shoot the bunny in your assigned vertical row from top to bottom or bottom to top IN ORDER...and that order can be different for YOU versus the others in your group...you all do NOT have to shoot bottom to top or top to bottom.

Yes, you circumvented the CURRENT rule. YOUR bow shoots differently from other people's and it is due more to peep height than it is bow speed! 

So WHAT? Under the CURRENT rule...you dun got a zero. Under the PROPOSED rule change....you still get your "5", but you'd better not put another arrow into the same spot...or you'll get a zero for that 2nd arrow in the same target. Oh, by the way, I once shot with a guy that shot the 20 footer for 54 yards too, but he hit what he was aiming at with that setting...the X on the 20 footer. His bow only shot at 212fps, but he anchored on his collar bone...a la Milan Elliott's School of Archery, Atlanta, Georgia.

Do I CARE if they don't change the rules to allow us to pick our target and stay there, or if they don't change the Bunny rule to allow you to shoot them in the vertical row in any order? 

NO, not really...but it sure would clean up the rule book some...excepting those that USE the rules to "level the playing field" or so they seem to think....and one thing that turns a LOT of people away from the NFAA.....??????....The archaic, confusing, poorly written and hard to understand rules. 
Oh, I forgot...the rules are perfectly clear...just read them....that is why so many newbies are totally lost...even when they DO read the rules. 
That is why so many veterans don't know how to correctly score a walkup when a person shoots two arrows from the 45 yard stake and continues on up to finish the target with 5 arrows in the face; all of which are in the "5-ring". FEW people know how to correctly score that person. and give him his "4" out of 20 for that target. 
You see, the ONLY arrow that was shot from the correct stake is the first one at 45 yards...the remaining arrows are ALL from the WRONG stake, plus you deduct one point for shooting the 5th arrow. (He shot his 2nd arrow from 45 yards = "0"; then he shoots his 3rd arrow from 40 yards = "0"; then his fourth arrow from 35 yards = "0"; and his 5th arrow from 30 yards = "0"'; Then deduct 1 point on that first arrow for shooting 5 arrows instead of 4). Correct score = 4 out of 20.

If he shoots TWO arrows from the 45 yard stake...the only way to get a decent score is to SKIP the 40 yard stake (where the 2nd arrow is supposed to be shot from), then shoot his THIRD arrow from the 35 yard stake, and his 4th arrow from the 30 yard stake...and take his "scrambling 15" out of 20. The second arrow from the 45 yard stake is history; zilch, nada, rien, cero, zero. Ain't no way to get more...and a "19" is totally out of the matrix in this scenario.

field14


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

field14 said:


> No, I do NOT "think" that you can shoot "any order"..I KNOW better than that.
> You ask how many times have I seen a person not set his site and shoots at the bottom target and hits an X on the next one or two UP from that..>NEVER ONCE...in the "X" ring! NEVER ONCE! And a "5"...less than a hanfull in over 40 years of shooting field/hunter rounds...too many variables! Hit the TARGET....YES...but getting more than a "3" or a "4"....nope.
> 
> Same thing happens INDOORS...A person can shoot two at the same target spot...or shoot ANY SEQUENCE he wants, and as long as it is on his "target mix" it is just fine and dandy...even if he was out of his "sequence" that he normally shoots.
> ...



field, then I had a miracle at Blue springs Aimed at the bottom & hit the dot 3rd one up.
reason you can shoot any order indoors, because the only reason for the 5 spot was so you don't break arrows. It has the same scoring value as the 1 spot. That's why I had it changed. Not so with the birdie. It was designed as a completly different face, with a walk up.


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