# On the topic of Certified Coach Certs



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Larry -

I know a lot of L I, II, III and IV coaches. 
Like anything else, most are good intentioned, and some quite knowledgeable , have a good understanding of how "how things work" and are pretty well grounded in reality. Unfortunately, there are all too many aren't and just flash the paper certs. Happily, the "money grabbers", while there too, are few and far between.

IMHO, as long as there's no shooting requirement, or real analysis training, it ain't gonna change. 
Unless something changed last night night and no one told me, you can still get up there on the coaching food chain without ever touching a bow. 

Viper1 out.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

To be honest, any level 3 or higher recurve coach i see, i know right away they dont know anything about recurve archery form. And that’s being kind. And that includes the level 5s and level whatevers that are at the OTC working with the RAs and the red teams, dream teams etc.

I have a level 2 to keep my JOAD. Period. I would never go higher. And i know its worthless. 

All the recurve coaches i respect have little to no certification. Dick Tone, Rick McKinney, Darrell Pace, Butch Johnson, Vic Wunderle, Larry Seale, Hyangsoon Seo, Kim Kyungwook, Jang Hongeun, and Coach Kim Hyungtak to name a few. 

None of them will be or are level 4 or 5 because none of them buy into the nts program. They all know its crap. Thats why none of them work in the OTC program with Lee.

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

and i will prove my point. 

Easton Center Chula Vista instagram page. Hosting tournament for Joy Lee club. Video of a cute 8 year old archer. Shooting with terrible bent hyperextended arm. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7woveJgqrO/

Second video of archers shooting with said 8 year old and other youth archers. First 5 have high bow shoulder as well. Certified coach standing behind archers, camera pans around to Lee smiling and waving. Seems none of them understand the bio mechanics to correct the archery form shown by the archers. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7wWftKArYJ/

So this high shoulder, hyperextended bow arm is drilled in for years. 

Drew exhibited this once when we added extension and short rods. I corrected the issue that session. 


















They seem to not be able to though they are certified. Lee is what Level 6? 

Of course the comments on the videos are all Awesome! so great! great job coach! lol. 

Fortunately for the coaches, the posters cheering dont know good archery form from bad. 

I couldnt make this stuff up. 




Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> To be honest, any level 3 or higher recurve coach i see, i know right away they dont know anything about recurve archery form. And that’s being kind. And that includes the level 5s and level whatevers that are at the OTC working with the RAs and the red teams, dream teams etc.
> 
> I have a level 2 to keep my JOAD. Period. I would never go higher. And i know its worthless.
> 
> ...


That these guys, and I would throw in Tom Stevenson and John, too (you know, the best to have ever done it for this country) aren't USA Archery's official national gurus is a crime that makes my head spin. USA Archery, at the higher levels, just seems kind of like a failed state, like Mexico or some African or Middle East nations where the govt is so corrupt and non-functional that improvement/solutions don't seem even remotely doable.


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## Trojan Archery (Dec 29, 2019)

I think you can view it from another angle. Yes, you can definitely say that it is big cash grab to get a bunch of "paper coaches"

The one thing we should appreciate is that atleast it put the archer shot sequence in one language that thousands of people are using. Whether or not you agree with NTS or Push-Pull or whatever. Atleast it puts it into one set of terms that most of the current instructor and coach base can use and follow.

Now whether or not they have experience and know what they are talking about... is an entirely different issue.... As a college club, we are always getting people who want to coach us that have no experience start spitting out key words... and do not understand a single thing they are saying. 

There is definitely some pros and cons to this issue and its going to be debated on this forum forever lol.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Trojan Archery said:


> Now whether or not they have experience and know what they are talking about... is an entirely different issue.... As a college club, we are always getting people who want to coach us that have no experience start spitting out key words... and do not understand a single thing they are saying.


that i agree with. 



Trojan Archery said:


> Whether or not you agree with NTS or Push-Pull or whatever. .


The Korean shot (linear shot) doesnt push-pull. That is a misnomer. 

I wish i knew where that came from. but i hear it called that so often and its not even close. 

Chris


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

I agree that many level 1 and 2s don't have a lot of archery experience but many are getting certified for camps and other short term programs. I see the level 1 and 2s as certified in understanding and teaching of basic archery SAFETY. Could we require a higher level of knowledge and technique? Sure!


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I dont think Larry is talking about level 1 or 2. 

I also was not.

Chris


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> The Korean shot (linear shot) doesnt push-pull. That is a misnomer.
> 
> I wish i knew where that came from. but i hear it called that so often and its not even close.
> 
> Chris


There are more than two forms of archery technique that is taught in this world.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Level one and level two is easy. USA Archery is supplying archers with liability insurance, and are probably required by insurance provides to provide at least some basic information on safety primarily to help prevent the usage of that liability. Also having other people who are certified by USAA, but not employees of USAA teach these classes, in certain cases will give the lawyers someone else to blame if the liability insurance is used.

Levels 3 & 4 though should be a whole different level though, and that isn't happening. 

IMO they should beg Mr. McKinney to develop a training program based off of his book, and be done with it.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

I can't see any reason to get more than a level 2. My folks and I only have level 2's so we can run a JOAD club, and to be honest we probably wouldn't have gotten our level 2's a few years ago if it wasn't being held at our club.

Should specify the levels and rename them to what they really are about, NTS and recurve. I know the world doesn't revolve around Barebow, but there still is no mention of stringwalking or barebow in the coaching materials except as a stepping stone to recurve which just shows to me how much baloney the coaching levels are. 

Would be nice if we had an alternate way to get covered by the insurance other than the coaching certs.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

erose said:


> There are more than two forms of archery technique that is taught in this world.


there are two methods for archery form, linear and angular. 

How you anchor there are many ways.
How you come through the clicker, there are many ways. But those many ways get there either by linear or angular form. NTS is the only angular one i know. 

How you come through the clicker isnt a form, its a step in a shot sequence. Push pull being a description of coming thru the clicker, Some may push, some may pull, some do both, But push pull more generally is what the Korean shot is called. And that is a misnomer. They do not push pull to come thru the clicker with no movement. 




erose said:


> IMO they should beg Mr. McKinney to develop a training program based off of his book, and be done with it.


Wont ever happen, they hate him. Ever notice there are no photos of him at the OTC? Thats on purpose, not an oversight. 


Chris


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Totally agree with this

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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

Her arm looks double jointed

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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

teebat said:


> Her arm looks double jointed
> 
> Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


Its typical of youth archers and some adults. Its actually bio mechanical for the human body, so thats why you see the same thing. Its bio mechanical for holding up a weight at arms length. Its not bio mechanical for pushing the bow away, which is what she should be doing.

And i corrected it easily with Drew in about 10 minutes as the pictures show. They are at a loss how to correct it and just let her shoot that way. Possibly for the next few years. I cover this in my seminar at Vegas next week. Typical for what i find with level 3 and up coaching though. 


Chris


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I know a lot of certified coaches myself, including level 4. I have taught courses to coaches in the past, but I don't consider myself a coach. I have been looking for a coach to help me take my shooting to the next level. Virtually all of what I am offered it stuff I already know. What I need is someone to help me to keep my head out of a certain posterior part of my body. It stuns me how little of the psychological skills are taught to our coaches. I have spent the last three years working on my form, and while there might be some improvements there, that is not what will get me from shooting 300-310 outdoors to shooting 330. I know how to physically train. I know how to organize practice. I need to improve on how I THINK about executing a shot and how to do so more effectively, every time. Where does that get taught in the level x classes?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

So how many, according to standards implied herein, "qualified" coaches are there in the US? I mean that would satisfy the no way USAA on this thread. How are they distributed?


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Seattlepop said:


> So how many, according to standards implied herein, "qualified" coaches are there in the US? I mean that would satisfy the no way USAA on this thread. How are they distributed?


Depends how you define a coach as 'qualified.'


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

I was a NFAA certified coach. When that went away I didn't re-certify with USAA. I guess I'm not a coach...:thumbs_do


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## bruce_m (Jan 23, 2012)

This is another term I've heard over time. "Double jointed"

My son has the ability to hyper extend or (over extend) his arm. (over rotate, over extend, hyper extend.. whatever you wish to call it.). He is "hyper mobile", he has joints/soft tissues that allow that. He had to work hard and be disciplined to find the proper alignment in his form.

His sister on the other hand (as well as myself) do not have that "ability" to allow the bow arm/elbow to over rotate and mis align. Just the natural bone structure of the elbow joint.

We are spoiled with a coach that has a tremendous knowledge of bio mechanics as well as recurve tuning.

I'd totally agree with Chris, that typical of youth archers first starting out. Not learning the bio mechanical way to get behind the bow. (or I believe Mr. McKinney put it as getting inside the bow.)

Bruce


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> there are two methods for archery form, linear and angular.
> 
> How you anchor there are many ways.
> How you come through the clicker, there are many ways. But those many ways get there either by linear or angular form. NTS is the only angular one i know.
> ...


 I disagree here, angular and linear are really just two words that describe differing methods of drawing a string back to anchor. Drawing the bow is not all that is involved in shooting a bow. IMO archery form, or technique, is the whole method of shooting an arrow from stance to follow through. Although one can use the term form or technique to describe or refer to the differing steps within the overall form. 

Concerning drawing a bow, I would say there are more than just two forms of drawing. I don’t draw my bow with either a linear or an angular motion. But I would define a linear drawing motion as pointing the bow straight to the target and then pulling the string back to anchor. Me, I start slightly high (not skydrawing), and pull down to anchor. Again I don’t consider that as either, but I would consider more of a high angular drawing motion.

Anyway, I think that one should define a specific archery form or technique, not just by one part of the overall form. 


QUOTE=chrstphr;1111838481]

Wont ever happen, they hate him. Ever notice there are no photos of him at the OTC? Thats on purpose, not an oversight. 


[/QUOTE]. Well I have never been to the OTC, so I wouldn’t know.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> Wont ever happen, they hate him. Ever notice there are no photos of him at the OTC? Thats on purpose, not an oversight.


"they" (who, exactly?) hate him so much, that he was a special guest at the grand opening of the Easton center, right alongside Darrell Pace, Jay Barrs, John Williams, and Simon Fairweather.

Go figure.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

>--gt--> said:


> "they" (who, exactly?) hate him so much, that he was a special guest at the grand opening of the Easton center, right alongside Darrell Pace, Jay Barrs, John Williams, and Simon Fairweather.
> 
> Go figure.


You do so love to try and discredit me. 

one picture does not tell the back story. 

You let me know where at any Easton center there is a photo of Rick McKinney shooting. 

My statement is true. Easy to verify at any Easton center or with the man himself. 


Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I think you’ve said enough.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> You do so love to try and discredit me.
> 
> one picture does not tell the back story.
> 
> ...


The real question is why do you feel compelled to make such statements in the first place? Vitriol isn't an antacid.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Seattlepop said:


> The real question is why do you feel compelled to make such statements in the first place? Vitriol isn't an antacid.


Not sure vitriol is the right word (at least in how I took his comments). Irritated, offended, outraged even? But perhaps Chris evinces those emotions from knowledge he has that we don't?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

erose said:


> I disagree here, angular and linear are really just two words that describe differing methods of drawing a string back to anchor. Drawing the bow is not all that is involved in shooting a bow. IMO archery form, or technique, is the whole method of shooting an arrow from stance to follow through. Although one can use the term form or technique to describe or refer to the differing steps within the overall form.
> 
> Concerning drawing a bow, I would say there are more than just two forms of drawing. I don’t draw my bow with either a linear or an angular motion. But I would define a linear drawing motion as pointing the bow straight to the target and then pulling the string back to anchor. Me, I start slightly high (not skydrawing), and pull down to anchor. Again I don’t consider that as either, but I would consider more of a high angular drawing motion.
> 
> ...


. Well I have never been to the OTC, so I wouldn’t know.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Defining terms is hard! I giggled while reading your highlighted description, because what you describe as a high angular draw - that sounds like what a lot of people mean when they describe linear draw, which speaks to the draw force in the horizontal plane (getting all or mostly inline at the beginning of the draw, and pulling close into the body, as opposed to angular draw that describes pulling outside away from the body to full draw, then getting into alignment for the shot). At least, that's how I think of it. Here are some Korean examples of linear draw that very much mimic your description ...


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

lksseven said:


> . Well I have never been to the OTC, so I wouldn’t know.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Defining terms is hard! I giggled while reading your highlighted description, because what you describe as a high angular draw - that sounds like what a lot of people mean when they describe linear draw, which speaks to the draw force in the horizontal plane (getting all or mostly inline at the beginning of the draw, and pulling close into the body, as opposed to angular draw that describes pulling outside away from the body to full draw, then getting into alignment for the shot). At least, that's how I think of it. Here are some Korean examples of linear draw that very much mimic your description ...
View attachment 7061377

View attachment 7061381

View attachment 7061385
[/QUOTE]

That I wouldn't call linear draw. When I asked the late great archer and coach Hardy Ward, who was instrumental in bringing modern recurve archery to the Orient, about linear draw, he told me that no body has done that on the international level since the 60s-70s.

He referred to how the Koreans and Chinese Taipei archers draw as a supinating drawing motion, and a supinating drawing motion can be either a high or low drawing motion.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Larry,

I think you are right though. Defining terms is hard, and there isn't really any "official" archery knowledge base, so to a certain point everyone is at a liberty of defining things the way they want. But I do think it is a dis-service trying to pigeon-hole every archery technique or form into two categories. Not every non-NTS elite archer out there uses the same shooting style, form or technique (whatever word you want to use).


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Not sure vitriol is the right word (at least in how I took his comments). Irritated, offended, outraged even? But perhaps Chris evinces those emotions from knowledge he has that we don't?


vitriol noun

"vit·​ri·​ol | \ ˈvi-trē-əl \
Definition of vitriol
1: bitterly harsh or caustic language or criticism" Merriam-Webster

Over the years Chris has proclaimed his hatred for NTS to the point of it being an idea fixe, an obsession. 

Chris, you can sell linear without the relentless pissing about NTS. Frankly, I don't know any NTS coaches who even teach the outside-in draw.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> The real question is why do you feel compelled to make such statements in the first place? Vitriol isn't an antacid.


While i usually have you blocked, i read your comment in Larry’s reply. 

Why do people always believe i do not speak from facts? Why would i make such a statement if i had not had a personal conversation with the source. That conversation was private, but the truth of it is not. There are no photos of Mckinney at the OTC Easton center. And it is not an oversight. 

Of course GT is an Easton guy and will tow the company line. But that does not mean he is telling the real story. I did not speak with vitrol, i spoke with the sentiment of the conversation i had, and i spoke with the truth. 

I wonder if there are photos of Vic Wunderle at the OTC. That i have not looked for. 


Chris


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

target1 said:


> I was a NFAA certified coach. When that went away I didn't re-certify with USAA. I guess I'm not a coach...:thumbs_do


I took the NFAA certified coaching class twice. Once in the 80s and again in 1994. 20 hours spread over 3 days and $200. I taught archery for several years and then 8 years ago I moved to Arizona. The club here asked me to teach their level 1 and level 2 archery classes but I needed my certificate.

I contacted the NFAA and was told that they sent the certificates to the USAA. I contacted the USAA and was told that they threw the certificates from them from the NFAA in the garbage. Yes I was told this by the USAA. Talked to the NFAA at Vegas and was told that they would look into it. That was 4 years ago and never a word back from the NFAA. I won't take another class and pay the fees and hours again with the USAA and the NFAA is still giving the coaching classes.

So my question is that if the USAA is so short on coaching, why not have the certified coaches from the NFAA take a short class to bring them up to the USAA way of teaching? We sure know more about compounds than the USAA ever will. It wouldn't take much. I have seen up to level 3 USAA coaches and I wouldn't let most of them teach my kids. I give private lessons to friends and family now and tell them that I am not qualified by the USAA or have the expertise that some non shooter USAA coaches have.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

From the man who says I should be shot....



>--gt--> said:


> "they" (who, exactly?) hate him so much, that he was a special guest at the grand opening of the Easton center, right alongside Darrell Pace, Jay Barrs, John Williams, and Simon Fairweather.
> 
> Go figure.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Rick McKinney said:


> From the man who says I should be shot....


Who says that? There is so much immaturity in this sport.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

target1 said:


> Who says that? There is so much immaturity in this sport.


Sad to say it's not just this sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So this topic is about coaching certs, right? 

Well, we had a problem with "paper coaches" before Lee and before NTS, and here we are with a problem with too many "paper coaches" again.

In Lee's defense, he tried to address this problem back in '07. I was there. He wanted to personally certify coaches to ensure some quality control. Most people won't recall or recognize what a "Regional High Performance Coach" is. Rick and I sat at the same table when we attended that training. Rod Menzer, the current CEO of USArchery was there as well. We and many others (Lorinda Cohen, Jim Coombe, Staten Holmes and others) were certified as the first group of "Regional High Performance" coaches. 

At that time, the levels had gone away. Why? Because Lee wanted to make sure there were no "paper coaches." 

But then the politics won, and we went back to the levels and the paper coaches. And now we have L4 NTS coaches who hardly know how to shoot and worse yet, hardly know what it means to be a coach. I'm sure Lee threw up in his mouth a bit as he passed one after the next at the L4 NTS level.

Sometimes, when you are a cog in a big wheel, you have to learn to accept your role. 

I've said for many years, until there is a merit-based component to the coaching certifications, it is a paper exercise.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

To whom it may concern: I read Chris' posts about linear with great interest because I have been working on it for at least a couple years now. Old dog, new tricks. Chris' posts have helped me greatly to understand the differences in expansion/extension or whatever it's called/not called. However, I will probably never understand the need to air dirty laundry in order to promote oneself. The product should, and in Chris' instance does, sell itself. What's next for USAA...prosecution by Tweet storm?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Seattlepop said:


> What's next for USAA...prosecution by Tweet storm?


It seems to be the example that many are willing to follow, sadly.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Seattlepop said:


> vitriol noun
> 
> "vit·​ri·​ol | \ ˈvi-trē-əl \
> Definition of vitriol
> ...


Hah, good one on the definition, Seattle. Here's the one I found - Google makes it pretty easy to find just the right pick for your nit.
vit·ri·ol
/ˈvitrēəl,ˈvitrēˌôl/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
cruel and bitter criticism. 

I don't see how Chris' observation that Easton has no pics of Rick McKinney up in their centers rises to the level of "cruel and bitter criticism" .... but potaytoe potahtoe I guess.

Been driving all day, so late to these earlier posts...

He can certainly speak for himself, but I think Chris's vigorous opposition to NTS and the infrastructure built up to support/buttress/protect it is because he sees it to be an existential threat to good archery practice and competitiveness of US archers, especially the female archer population. It's his version of Cato's "Carthago delenda est!"


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

huteson2us2 said:


> I took the NFAA certified coaching class twice. Once in the 80s and again in 1994. 20 hours spread over 3 days and $200. I taught archery for several years and then 8 years ago I moved to Arizona. The club here asked me to teach their level 1 and level 2 archery classes but I needed my certificate.
> 
> I contacted the NFAA and was told that they sent the certificates to the USAA. I contacted the USAA and was told that they threw the certificates from them from the NFAA in the garbage. Yes I was told this by the USAA. Talked to the NFAA at Vegas and was told that they would look into it. That was 4 years ago and never a word back from the NFAA. I won't take another class and pay the fees and hours again with the USAA and the NFAA is still giving the coaching classes.
> 
> *So my question is that if the USAA is so short on coaching*, why not have the certified coaches from the NFAA take a short class to bring them up to the USAA way of teaching? We sure know more about compounds than the USAA ever will. It wouldn't take much. I have seen up to level 3 USAA coaches and I wouldn't let most of them teach my kids. I give private lessons to friends and family now and tell them that I am not qualified by the USAA or have the expertise that some non shooter USAA coaches have.


The push for more and more coaching certification holders isn't, imo, about a shortage of coaches, but rather - like all bureaucracies - USAA thinks they have shortage of $$$, so the cert system becomes an $$$ generating engine, with the bureaucrats in charge. That an abundance of archery bountiful results or imitators hasn't been forthcoming isn't their concern.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lksseven said:


> but I think Chris's vigorous opposition to NTS and the infrastructure built up to support/buttress/protect it is because he sees it to be an existential threat to good archery practice and competitiveness of US archers, especially the female archer population. It's his version of Cato's "Carthago delenda est!"


nail on the head. 

Larry, you are always so eloquent. I speak like a hillbilly. 

Chris


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> "they" (who, exactly?) hate him so much, that he was a special guest at the grand opening of the Easton center, right alongside Darrell Pace, Jay Barrs, John Williams, and Simon Fairweather.
> 
> Go figure.


great picture of DP! Looks like Rick just said something funny


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Hah, good one on the definition, Seattle. Here's the one I found - Google makes it pretty easy to find just the right pick for your nit.
> vit·ri·ol
> /ˈvitrēəl,ˈvitrēˌôl/
> Learn to pronounce
> ...


I apologize, I wasn't referring to this isolated instance. "I hate NTS" is a theme and it is tiresome. Now is it suggested that USAA "hates" Rick. Speaking for USAA are we? Chris is doing a great job of promoting and teaching a style that people are interested in learning. But please, if you want people to swim on your side of the pool, don't piss in it.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I referenced Easton. I did not say USA archery. And Rick’s comment should show who made the true statement. 

Easton center is who puts the photos of our past champions. Which is why George responded to uphold Easton’s honor, or lack there of. 



Chris


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

lksseven said:


> The push for more and more coaching certification holders isn't, imo, about a shortage of coaches, but rather - like all bureaucracies - USAA thinks they have shortage of $$$, so the cert system becomes an $$$ generating engine, with the bureaucrats in charge. That an abundance of archery bountiful results or imitators hasn't been forthcoming isn't their concern.


I don't think this is the case at all. The reason why is the books that they send out with these certifications. Granted these books may be getting donated or help paid for by sponsors, but I would be shocked if those books (the new ones) are less than $50.00 a pop, and I would not be shocked if they were closer to $100.00 a pop. About 7 or 8 years ago, I looked into having some books I wrote printed the same way, and I couldn't find anyone to make them less than a $100.00 a piece. So I just settled selling them as a pdf on a cd.

Granted every three years the coach or instructor has to renew their certifications, and then you can say that they are making money off the dues. But for the first time coaches...again I would be shocked if they were not in the red concerning those coaches/instructors packets that they sell.

IMO I think the system is a "we mean well" situation, that is being warped by insurance liability requirements.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

erose said:


> IMO they should beg Mr. McKinney to develop a training program based off of his book, and be done with it.





chrstphr said:


> Wont ever happen, they hate him. Ever notice there are no photos of him at the OTC? Thats on purpose, not an oversight.
> 
> 
> Chris





chrstphr said:


> I referenced Easton. I did not say USA archery. And Rick’s comment should show who made the true statement.
> 
> Easton center is who puts the photos of our past champions. Which is why George responded to uphold Easton’s honor, or lack there of.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but you can see from your comments why one would think you are referring to USA Archery as well. Not saying a care whichever way, but just wanting to point out to you why someone can reasonably think that is the case.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> I don't think this is the case at all. The reason why is the books that they send out with these certifications. Granted these books may be getting donated or help paid for by sponsors, but I would be shocked if those books (the new ones) are less than $50.00 a pop, and I would not be shocked if they were closer to $100.00 a pop. About 7 or 8 years ago, I looked into having some books I wrote printed the same way, and I couldn't find anyone to make them less than a $100.00 a piece. So I just settled selling them as a pdf on a cd.
> 
> Granted every three years the coach or instructor has to renew their certifications, and then you can say that they are making money off the dues. But for the first time coaches...again I would be shocked if they were not in the red concerning those coaches/instructors packets that they sell.
> 
> IMO I think the system is a "we mean well" situation, that is being warped by insurance liability requirements.


Another way of looking at this (responding to Larry's comments, and for the sake of argument) is that USArchery feels they are serving their "customers" through all these certification products. I mean, if nobody was interested, then how many coaches and others would be paying for certs, books, seminars, etc. So there is that "meeting demand" side of the argument. (Of course the counter to that is whether or not they created a false narrative to drive demand).

Of course, archery on average is a short-term sport for most. 3-5 years and most families are in and out of it. And most families come in with zero archery background and certainly zero experience with the politics of the sport, so they can be convinced of nearly anything for at least most of their tenure in the sport.

I have seen a lot of parents and archers wise up after being "fooled twice" which usually leads to them finding something else to do, or changing their approach to the sport. It only took me 15 years. I'm slower than most.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Rick McKinney said:


> From the man who says I should be shot....


Rick - you're a ball of fun and an encyclopedia of knowledge. You cool in my book


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> I referenced Easton. I did not say USA archery. And Rick’s comment should show who made the true statement.
> 
> Easton center is who puts the photos of our past champions. Which is why George responded to uphold Easton’s honor, or lack there of.
> 
> ...


I will probably be one of the easiest people to find at the Vegas shoot. Let’s see if you have the stones to discuss this in person rather than behind a keyboard.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

>--gt--> said:


> I will probably be one of the easiest people to find at the Vegas shoot. Let’s see if you have the stones to discuss this in person rather than behind a keyboard, sport.


No problem, i too will be there. We can discuss who in that photo was the only one that Easton didnt pay the travel expenses for.

And dont call me sport. You dont know me well enough. I have never addressed you as such.

Chris


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Another way of looking at this (responding to Larry's comments, and for the sake of argument) is that USArchery feels they are serving their "customers" through all these certification products. I mean, if nobody was interested, then how many coaches and others would be paying for certs, books, seminars, etc. So there is that "meeting demand" side of the argument. (Of course the counter to that is whether or not they created a false narrative to drive demand).
> 
> Of course, archery on average is a short-term sport for most. 3-5 years and most families are in and out of it. And most families come in with zero archery background and certainly zero experience with the politics of the sport, so they can be convinced of nearly anything for at least most of their tenure in the sport.
> 
> I have seen a lot of parents and archers wise up after being "fooled twice" which usually leads to them finding something else to do, or changing their approach to the sport. It only took me 15 years. I'm slower than most.


I have to say that I was one of those parents that came into this with zero background as well, and the level one/two course I took really helped me out a good bit, and created a good foundation for me to start off as an instructor. I don't really see anything wrong with the level one and two part of this equation. Except maybe make it a requirement to go through the level one class first, which should be a two day course all in itself, especially how the new books are written; before you can take the level two course. Being able to combine these courses is just a lot of information to throw at newbees, and in my opinion takes up too much time, and makes it difficult to allot enough time in one weekend to actually shoot bows.

I think the key though for those becoming level one and two instructors is that they need to keep learning after that course; AND they need to be or become an archer themselves. I am a firm believer that there are very few coaches out there that have the ability to coach someone beyond what they themselves have achieved. What I'm saying is that if you or your kid has National or International level aspirations then it would behoove you to find a coach that has been there and done that; OR a coach that can prove to you via the skins on his/her wall that he/she has coached others up to that level even though he/she has never obtained that level.

Anyway, can USA Archery help with the continuing learning of their certified coaches and instructors? Without a doubt. They haven't done this so far except to encourage instructors to go through their level 3 and 4 courses. IMO, they should have trusted coaches out there hosting coaching clinics. Have continuing education opportunities as well for their coaches would be nice as well.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I think we all agree mostly that the level 1 and 2 certifications are useful and that it is the level 3 and 4 that are troublesome. Not that the courses themselves are not useful, but the certification does not meaningfully identify one as being able to coach athletes to a competitive level. I think we all mostly agree as well that we have had some great coaches whose experience we have not leveraged to train new coaches and inform our systems regarding the skills that are important.

Most relevant to me is not so much the system, nor beliefs about what technique is better or worse, but what makes a great coach? To me, one can be a good coach if one teaches technique and form, but a great coach has to be able to deal with the whole athlete.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> I will probably be one of the easiest people to find at the Vegas shoot. Let’s see if you have the stones to discuss this in person rather than behind a keyboard.


Ah, good 'ol threats if your argument doesn't hold water... What a classy old school approach. 

Next up, dueling pistols at 18 meters. Set system does not apply. LOL

I think someone is looking to get banned again, no?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> I think we all agree mostly that the level 1 and 2 certifications are useful and that it is the level 3 and 4 that are troublesome. Not that the courses themselves are not useful, but the certification does not meaningfully identify one as being able to coach athletes to a competitive level. I think we all mostly agree as well that we have had some great coaches whose experience we have not leveraged to train new coaches and inform our systems regarding the skills that are important.
> 
> Most relevant to me is not so much the system, nor beliefs about what technique is better or worse, but what makes a great coach? To me, one can be a good coach if one teaches technique and form, but a great coach has to be able to deal with the whole athlete.


Very well said, on both counts.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Trolls go away if you don't feed them. Or just report them and let mods do their job.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> Trolls go away if you don't feed them. Or just report them and let mods do their job.


Yup


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*Everyone take a deep breath...*

... and sing along:


https://youtu.be/8z2-ZoBfb5k


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## Speedly (Jan 23, 2019)

lcaillo said:


> Or just report them and let mods do their job.


I dunno. Stuff I've reported during my time here has all stayed up, without exception, even when what I was reporting is literally listed on the Report screen as something which is against the rules... my confidence that anything would be done is pretty much zero, based on my experience with it so far. Maybe your experience has been different?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Can someone please video chrstphr and >—gt—> at Vegas and put it on Youtube? Anyone giving odds on either of them?



Come on, guys, lighten up.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Stash said:


> Can someone please video chrstphr and >—gt—> at Vegas and put it on Youtube? Anyone giving odds on either of them?
> 
> 
> 
> Come on, guys, lighten up.


I agree. Why do people always want to stick there noses where they don’t belong. I would hate to see either Chris, Rick or George to get banned over something so trivial.

Besides maybe they can sell tickets and give the proceeds to a charity of the winner’s choice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've learned that the vast majority of people like to avoid conflict. Find it distasteful, etc. Most of them also blame the victim or messenger for the conflict too. Easier for the observer to do because blaming to blame the offender means taking a stand, and they can't have that. That would take courage.

Meanwhile, USArchery just sent an email to all of us announcing a record number of L4 NTS coaches being certified, which I think is actually on-topic.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Meanwhile, USArchery just sent an email to all of us announcing a record number of L4 NTS coaches being certified, which I think is actually on-topic.


I’m just curious if the record number of L4 NTS coaches mean that the number of OR archers is growing as well? 

I wonder if someone is keeping up with the number and growth (or lack thereof) of OR archers showing up at National events? Has anyone seen these numbers if there are?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Speedly said:


> I dunno. Stuff I've reported during my time here has all stayed up, without exception, even when what I was reporting is literally listed on the Report screen as something which is against the rules... my confidence that anything would be done is pretty much zero, based on my experience with it so far. Maybe your experience has been different?


Most forums do not moderate aggressively. They are afraid of losing people. It is a trade off between long term health of a site and short term numbers. I was an admin for a large internet forum and learned that nearly all are more interested in short term numbers. A little steering from mods and some permanent bans go a long way to raise the level of discourse...and profit rarely suffers.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh, so now we’re into mods. Ok.


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## thawkins (Jan 12, 2018)

Maybe mods should have certs too. Now, what level mod should AT send to Vegas for the >--gt--> vs chrstphr "discussion"? 

Generally, I like both their comments - just not when addressed to each other. 

Sorry for continuing to drift off topic but t.m.dude said it was "Ok", LOL


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> I’m just curious if the record number of L4 NTS coaches mean that the number of OR archers is growing as well?
> 
> I wonder if someone is keeping up with the number and growth (or lack thereof) of OR archers showing up at National events? Has anyone seen these numbers if there are?
> 
> ...


At this rate, we're gonna need more L4 BB coaches than L4 NTS coaches.


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## TristanZSmith (Aug 29, 2017)

I was gonna try and respond to the original question of the thread, but this bickering is entertaining and I found myself a bit lost in the sauce.

With care to not stick my nose in the inner workings of ATs "hierarchy", I'm a bit surprised at the animosity of certain individuals. Seems that facts aren't enough for some people. And the Kool-Aid is flowing. 

I'll continue taking the word of people that I trust know what they're talking about, and less of the people protecting an image and making grade school threats. So it's fairly safe to say the main topic was answered within the first page and everything afterwards is just fluff?

Sometime I would like to start a thread just for everyone to air out their grievances, good for the soul and good for reader enjoyment. I like a good political read here and there (Archery related, of course) plus, it might divert these arguments so the other topics can remain untainted.

Anyways, I'm really looking forward to your Linear Seminar, Chris. I'm curious how many NTS certified coaches will be in attendance? I'd hope there'd be a good few, but that's making the assumption that they care to learn from a different source.

(And yes, you're correct. There are _zero _ photos of McKinney, as of this past SoCal. Just in case there's any doubters in the thread, still)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an archery icon who chose to go his own way and now is CEO of an arrow company, is not well received by the arrow company that provided him arrows during the peak of his career. 

What's amusing is the junkyard dog that the corporate insiders send out to police the yard. 

It sure leads one to wonder whether the Americans could still be on top if not for posturing and politics.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an archery icon who chose to go his own way and now is CEO of an arrow company, is not well received by the arrow company that provided him arrows during the peak of his career.
> 
> What's amusing is the junkyard dog that the corporate insiders send out to police the yard.
> 
> It sure leads one to wonder whether the Americans could still be on top if not for posturing and politics.


Right to the heart of it. And for me, the crux of my frustration - I just want USA Archery to be structured/run in such a way as to maximize the enabling of high skilled aspiring USA archers to achieve high levels of international experience and success. The current way (Brady and ??? for the men, ??? for the women) ain't working ("He ain't hitting, Billy. He ain't been hitting for a while now.")

The constant is Easton. As the big $$$ dog, nothing significant happens without their blessing. Coaches come and go (although this current one is taking an insufferably long time to go), archers come and go, board members come and go, ceo's come and go. The constant is Easton's wallet saying how it's going to be. For whatever reason Easton likes Coach Lee and that's why he's still there.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lksseven said:


> For whatever reason


*chuckles

:zip:


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> *chuckles
> 
> :zip:


Can we have some sort of “innuendo and allegations” thread that concisely and clearly explains all this stuff to those of us outside the inner circle?

Who wants Rick shot and why?
Why does Coach Lee need to go and why does Easton resist that?
Why should Easton put $millions into support for Archery but not have any say in how it’s spent?
Stuff like that...

So far all I can figure put is that some people use the wrong brand arrows, have difficulty setting their shoulder in a specific position, or draw their bow funny. I’m sure there’s more to it than that.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I wonder if there have been any instances of the Courts upholding defamation, including by innuendo, via social media?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

This could get political very fast...let's not go there.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

The truth is never defamation.

Anyone can pm me if they want to know what I know is truth in USA archery / politics/ Easton money control going on behind the memberships back and not said publicly. 

This forum may not be the place to air a lot of that. But that also doesnt mean its secret stuff as well. 

There is a littany of things that have happened that the archery membership as a whole has no idea, but would be pissed if they knew. Like the CEO of USA archery filed safesport reports on coach Woo to use safesport to get rid of her. When they wouldnt, he fired her anyway and gave the women side back to Lee with Chris Webster as the assistant. No announcement from USA Archery about the firing of the women’s head coach. This happened back at Thanksgiving. Lee wanted to keep Woo as his assistant, but MacKenzie Brown didnt want Woo, she wanted Chris Webster. So Rod went with MacKenzie. Brady and MacKenzie pick the head coaches and Rod and the BOD go along with it as Easton wants Lee as head coach. Lee’s contract was over and the BOD renewed it to Paris 2024. 

Or how about the lady running for a board seat at the last elections, and during the interview stage was asked specifically, how much money are you donating to UsA Archery? When she replied none, she didnt get past the interview stage. Asking for payment to get a board seat , completely inappropiate. Makes it look like a bribe. I could go on. There is worse stuff.

Why does coach Lee need to go? Why did Denise Parker try to make him leave by cutting his salary in half snd taking the women side away from him? but he stayed? The reason you wouldnt believe. 

And i am not told half the stuff that goes on. But what i am told, irritates me no end.

The issue with Rick and Easton came to me when i had a discussion with someone about the treatment of Vic Wunderle at an OTC center. 

Sometimes the only way to rein people in is to air the dirty laundry. 




Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Can we have some sort of “innuendo and allegations” thread that concisely and clearly explains all this stuff to those of us outside the inner circle?
> 
> Who wants Rick shot and why?
> Why does Coach Lee need to go and why does Easton resist that?
> ...


I didn't see "why did Lee leave Korea" on your list. 

:darkbeer:


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OK, so somebody went there...

The last 2 posts have just gotten me even more confused. 

What the hell exactly is going on in the USAA?

And who are we supposed to believe?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Well, i see that George is banned. 

I would ask the mods to remove the ban. I dont feel its fair to remove his ability to respond or defend his position, even i dont agree with it.

I am a big boy and can debate my position with George or USA archery or World Archery or anyone else. And i can take the heat from it as well. I am sure George is also an adult and can handle himself in a respectful manner while disagreeing.

I am one of the few who will take a stand on principle and i am always prepared for the adversarial environment that creates.

As my students will tell you, i am direct and to the point. That isnt always politically correct, but too bad. Its how i am. 

But i did not think George's comment was anything remotely deserving of a ban. Anymore than any of my comments.


Chris


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I agree the mods went too far in banning George, if it is over what happened in this thread. We’re all grown people here, and there is going to be times when things are going to get testy, and there was nothing in George’s comments to deserve banning. 

If you get testy at times that means you care and have a passion for this sport, whether others agree with you or not.

George believes in the company he works for, and anyone who listens to his podcast will get that. So, he is going to defend Easton, and quite honestly I respect that. Doesn’t mean he is right all the time, but it doesn’t mean he is wrong all the time either.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Yeah, I agree about 'gt' - he shouldn't get banned for this thread. I like 'gt' on here for selfish reasons - he's a to-be-expected predictable consistent company Baghdad Bob, but sometimes he is roaring Don Rickles funny with his barbs; and sometimes he contributes some interesting or useful info/knowledge from his unique access/position; and sometimes his not-well-positioned-snark comes back to bite him in the you-know-what, and that's always fun, too. 

Bring back 'gt', bring back 'gt', ...


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Effective moderating isn't just about banning. You can steer discussion but you have to be engaged. You have to be ready to delete a post quickly and contact all involved posters privately to set expectations on the tenor of discourse and the expectations of the forum.

Enough of all that, but it is something I have more experience on than archery. 

What has kept the USA off podiums has been the desire for a coach and program that is a magic pill for success rather than focusing on where our strengths are and dedication to the difficult process of being successful. They got what they asked for. A system that promised miracles. They also got the completely predictable results. 

You can't buy a ticket to the top of the podium. It's hard work and you have to be brutally honest in self assessment. NAA/USAA has never been good at that and has always been about 2 things. Maintaining the status of the current system and doing just enough to be sure that USOC does not exert significant pressure. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Stash said:


> Can we have some sort of “innuendo and allegations” thread that concisely and clearly explains all this stuff to those of us outside the inner circle?
> 
> Who wants Rick shot and why?
> Why does Coach Lee need to go and why does Easton resist that?
> ...


Here are my thinly researched/mostly hearsay-informed answers (try not to swing too enthusiastically that #PC hammer, SeattleP ... and the irony of your posted question being guilty of exactly what you are scolding about is delicious - thank you for that!) 

Of course nothing is quite as clear cut and dried as my sentences here suggest. Nothing ever is. But I'm just writing a post, not a novel.
But I'll bet $100 that Easton wouldn't keep a sales manager around for 15 years who had the same dismal record of meeting performance criteria as Coach Lee has had with producing a steady stream of international contending archers, male and female. So I believe that what many of us here want - a generating stream of internationally competitive contending archers - both male and female - is not the lion's share of criteria that Easton is using. They're not goof balls, they're smart people - they're just pursuing a list of criteria that most of us don't clearly know or understand. That's how I read the tea leaves, anyway. 

Who wants Rick shot and why?
From Rick's own post, one would have to surmise that at some point in the past, <gt> had made the comment to the effect that Rick should be shot as <gt>'s expression of displeasure over presumably Rick's position vis a vis Easton. I'm sure it was just a throwaway quip, not a hand wringing threat. <gt> was trying to use that picture disingenuously to show "see how magnanimous and inclusive my employer is?", when the picture actually showed just the opposite - guess which former champion was not paid to attend? Hint - who's the one with three world championships on his resume? 

Why does Coach Lee need to go and why does Easton resist that?
Well, from an international presence/success perspective, Coach Lee has been a complete bust. He excluded almost immediately all of our lynchpin athletes (Vic, Butch, Rick, Darrell, Jay, etc ... setting up a false litmus that 'it's either 100% my way or the highway'. Coach Lee apparently likes 'yes men', and apparently so does Easton. The women's program is beyond trainwrecked, going from full complement of Olympic spots and archers who could at least contend internationally, to where we are today, mostly reminiscing about Denise Parker 30 years ago. The men's program is Brady (who is the Jim Brown 'King Kong' of his era) and "who else?" 

Why should Easton put $millions into support for Archery but not have any say in how it’s spent?

IMO, Easton pretty much gives Coach Lee carte blanche because Brady likes Coach Lee and is loyal to him (having been a likable father-type figure for Brady since he was 16) and I think that is commendable of Brady. And Easton wants Brady shooting Easton and Hoyt products, and not jump ship to PSE or WinWin or ?? Easton is in the biz to sell equipment, and Coach Lee and Brady help them do that. So that's why Easton puts Lee's wife on the payroll as an OTC consultant for $100-$125k/year, as a way to pump up Coach Lee's income. And that's why Easton looks the other way when Lee is spending a lot of his time 'not performing head coaching duties/activities', but off on private pursuits of personal money generation - $200/half hour instruction sessions, promoting book sales and hawking Joy Lee JOAD tournaments, instead of traveling with the team on international competitions.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

lksseven said:


> Yeah, I agree about 'gt' - he shouldn't get banned for this thread. I like 'gt' on here for selfish reasons - he's a to-be-expected predictable consistent company Baghdad Bob, but sometimes he is roaring Don Rickles funny with his barbs; and sometimes he contributes some interesting or useful info/knowledge from his unique access/position; and sometimes his not-well-positioned-snark comes back to bite him in the you-know-what, and that's always fun, too.
> 
> Bring back 'gt', bring back 'gt', ...


I also am a fan of his. I respect his technical expertise and especially value his insight about the inner workings of the international aspect of the sport. But I strongly suspect he will choose to not come back after the ban expires. I knew him way back before he was with Easton. He lived in Buffalo NY and would come to my club for FITA tournaments from time to time. Very interesting, very intelligent man, but quite headstrong as well. He doesn’t need AT, and I expect he’s taken his ball and gone home permanently, or perhaps at least until a specific Easton or Hoyt issue that needs straightening out comes up.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

lksseven said:


> Here are my thinly researched/mostly hearsay-informed answers


OK, thanks for that.

#2 leads to the inevitable questions about why the USAA is therefore not doing something about it. Re: Lee - has the subject ever been brought up with the USAA leadership in public discussion, like at an AGM or even a Board meeting? You and others here on AT have one view. Is there anyone here with inside knowledge who can offer support to the other side of the issue? Is it perhaps that the immediate alternative (rejecting Easton financial support) might be worse?

#3 doesn’t answer my question as to why Easton should put money into it but not have a say. You answered why they SHOULD - it makes them money and it’s a good business decision - but why should Easton give money and just trust someone else to spend it on their behalf with no control over or guarantee of their investment producing a return?

I was on the Canadian archery association (FCA) Board of Directors for several years back in the old days, but times were so different, especially regarding funding, that my experience at the administrative level on such a smaller organization is meaningless here. 

What’s the operating budget of the USAA and what proportion of the revenue is Easton sourced?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Stash said:


> OK, thanks for that.
> 
> #2 leads to the inevitable questions about why the USAA is therefore not doing something about it. Re: Lee - has the subject ever been brought up with the USAA leadership in public discussion, like at an AGM or even a Board meeting? You and others here on AT have one view. Is there anyone here with inside knowledge who can offer support to the other side of the issue? Is it perhaps that the immediate alternative (rejecting Easton financial support) might be worse?
> 
> #3 doesn’t answer my question as to why Easton should put money into it but not have a say. You answered why they SHOULD - it makes them money and it’s a good business decision - but why should Easton give money and just trust someone else to spend it on their behalf with no guarantee of their investment producing a return?


#2 : I believe the USAA board has always been populated with enough Easton water carriers that an honest discussion/debate/battle never happens. You would think Denise was the ideal warrior to champion and demand results for the women's program, and she was frustrated with the current state of affairs/knew it was broken and needed to be completely overhauled, but she was unable to move the needle much (if at all) .... but what the heck, she was only the CEO and the last female US Olympian medalist we've had. She was not a member of Coach Lee's fan club or his infrastructure, she was campaigning and putting pressure on him, and then serendipity! she's promoted higher up in US Olympic bureaucracy, conveniently out of the way. Coincidence? Who knows?

#3: I believe the answer to your question is in my verbose previous post - as long as Brady's happy, Easton's happy. If Brady wants Coach Lee to be smiling and it takes funneling cash to/and loose oversight for Coach Lee for him to be happy and smiling, than that's what Easton will do. As long as Brady's excelling and wants Lee to be happy. 
IF either of those conditions changes, Bye Bye Coach Lee.

That's my partial looking glass view, anyway.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

Maybe, just maybe, we're not being realistic? 

I could give a rat's patute about "george" or "lee" or "brady" or just about anybody else you want to talk about.

My world deals with local ranges and people who just enjoy shooting. Most don't have any lofty goals and just want to shoot when jobs and life allows them to. In that world, certs and "names" just don't mean all that much - and really shouldn't. 

Go to any local range, and who the best shooters and best "coaches" or instructors are becomes readily apparent. Those are the guys or gals generally pulling their arrows from the middle of the target, and you see helping others on a regular basis. 

The Internet has indeed made the world smaller, and that's not always a good thing.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled debate, I have to make a new string ...

Viper1 out.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, we're not being realistic?
> 
> ...


Wisdom from Viper. [emoji106]

My only partial caveat would be that the archers who develop some aspiration to shoot national events are usually the only ones to stick with it more than 2 or 3 years. And the stickers do get interested (to varying degrees) in what's going on. Do some of us here probably serve the role of info gatherers\dispensers (tribal elders passing it down) ?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Larry - 

We're about the same age, so we sorta think alike.
And maybe that's not a good thing... times have changed.

The "stickers" being the ones who go to national events was "more" true when we were growing up than it is now. These days, all it takes to "go the the nationals" is free time and a bank account. I've seen too many people, both adults and bra...kids, "going to nationals", unable to keep all their arrows on the paper. 

I still believe if you want to compete at a national level, ya kinda have to pay your dues first; and if you want to be involved in managing at that level, you have to have the commitment and be able to accept the risks of doing so. 

At this point in my life, I just want to shoot, and do it as well as I can.
If I can pass a little along, that's just a bonus.

Viper1 out.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Viper1 said:


> Larry -
> 
> We're about the same age, so we sorta think alike.
> And maybe that's not a good thing... times have changed.
> ...


I hear ya, brother. I'm liking your plan more and more ... and less and less able to pull it off. Now If Life would just butt out for awhile again ...


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Seattlepop said:


> I wonder if there have been any instances of the Courts upholding defamation, including by innuendo, via social media?


You can take legal action, sure.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tunedlow said:


> You can take legal action, sure.


Yup, you can sue anyone for anything, and these days people do. Lawyers make bank off of butthurt these days.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

I wish I could deal with a nice local range but it's amazing how much my local club politics mirror the conversation here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Boltsmyth said:


> I wish I could deal with a nice local range but it's amazing how much my local club politics mirror the conversation here.


Unfortunately, that comes with the sport. I've yet to find a range in my 40+ years of shooting at archery ranges, that didn't have factions and politics. But I'm sure that's true anywhere there is a sport that has a governing body and national level events.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John, et al - 

Just because a club or public range has "politics", doesn't mean you have to get involved with that aspect of it. 
My local club has 500 members and there's certainly politics going on; I just go there to practice, teach, run my matches and leave. 

I know the current mantra is getting involved, but sometimes, that ain't the best for everyone. 
Likewise, "national level events" aren't the only game in town.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> John, et al -
> 
> Just because a club or public range has "politics", doesn't mean you have to get involved with that aspect of it.
> My local club has 500 members and there's certainly politics going on; I just go there to practice, teach, run my matches and leave.
> ...


Tony, you don't have to address your posts to me. Everyone reads them.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

Just etiquette, bad upbringing I suppose; :embara: 
the "et al" should have included everyone else :bolt:

Just bustin' yer shoes ...

Viper1 out.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Likewise, "national level events" aren't the only game in town.
> 
> Viper1 out.


They are if you are looking for competition and there isn't any in your local region.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> They are if you are looking for competition and there isn't any in your local region.


You're about to get lectured on only competing against yourself. Keep your head down. LOL


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

erose said:


> They are if you are looking for competition and there isn't any in your local region.


This is one reason my family travel so much in Canada...our local club has only one or two competitive minded OR archers so we have to go where the pool is deeper. Our vacations are archery vacations until my kid leaves home or we wouldn't be able to afford both.

Yes it's important to shoot only against yourself but it can be tough to stay motivated when it's only you and the score in the record book to shoot with. We do use the head 2 head app and it can be a powerful tool.

When you come right down to it, when looking at performance results for national team/development squad and assigning quotas, team selection, etc., no one cares how you score in practice - it's can you deliver the needed result when it counts (be it Olympic berth, medal, place in the top 16, whatever).

I know I'm opening a can of worms by saying this but I believe that the present mentality of everyone gets a ribbon for participation is doing a disservice to our kids. Not everyone makes the national team, not every applicant gets the job and some of us will wind up poor and some will wind up rich.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Maggiemaebe said:


> This is one reason my family travel so much in Canada...our local club has only one or two competitive minded OR archers so we have to go where the pool is deeper. Our vacations are archery vacations until my kid leaves home or we wouldn't be able to afford both.
> 
> Yes it's important to shoot only against yourself but it can be tough to stay motivated when it's only you and the score in the record book to shoot with. We do use the head 2 head app and it can be a powerful tool.
> 
> ...


Right with you Maggie!


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Maggiemaebe;1111878523 I know I'm opening a can of worms by saying this but I believe that the present mentality of everyone gets a ribbon for participation is doing a disservice to our kids. Not everyone makes the national team said:


> Agree...


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> You're about to get lectured on only competing against yourself. Keep your head down. LOL


I hope not. If one cannot see the value of both working to be the best you can be for yourself AND competition with others, they are missing out on a large part of sport in general. While it may be true that many place too much emphasis on where they stand with respect to others and fail to successfully compete with their most important adversary, themselves, competing with others is very important as well. 

Also, national competitions bring together a lot of diverse people from whom one can learn a lot. In many locations you can quickly run out of that...

I was happy to meet erose and understand exactly, having come from the southern part of his state where there was relatively little competition for years. I ended up going to Texas for most tournaments and to national events. I was lucky to get to shoot with many of the best and learned far more than if I had stayed local.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Yeah, if I stayed and shot only in my state, I would end up with a bunch of participation ribbons and nothing more. I'm the only senior/master archer in my state that shoots competitively. 99% of the tournaments I go to here, I'm the only one. There are a few guys that shoot in the Senior Olympics occasionally but that is it. 

At a certain point you don't get better as a competitor without competing against archers that are as good as or better than you are.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

erose said:


> At a certain point you don't get better as a competitor without competing against archers that are as good as or better than you are.


Then how do you explain all those guys who post in the General Archery section who can consistently group 2-3” at 60 yards?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Then how do you explain all those guys who post in the General Archery section who can consistently group 2-3” at 60 yards?


They don't need to enter tournaments to prove anything to you Stash. LOL

:wink:


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## Garrus (Jul 25, 2019)

lksseven said:


> . Well I have never been to the OTC, so I wouldn’t know.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Defining terms is hard! I giggled while reading your highlighted description, because what you describe as a high angular draw - that sounds like what a lot of people mean when they describe linear draw, which speaks to the draw force in the horizontal plane (getting all or mostly inline at the beginning of the draw, and pulling close into the body, as opposed to angular draw that describes pulling outside away from the body to full draw, then getting into alignment for the shot). At least, that's how I think of it. Here are some Korean examples of linear draw that very much mimic your description ...
View attachment 7061377

View attachment 7061381

View attachment 7061385
[/QUOTE]

I notice some koreans don't raise their arm so high, like above their heads, as Sim Yeji does. This can be consider the same "Style" or just a variation on the form.


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## caveman1440 (Feb 5, 2020)

Viper1 said:


> Larry -
> 
> The "stickers" being the ones who go to national events was "more" true when we were growing up than it is now. These days, all it takes to "go the the nationals" is free time and a bank account. I've seen too many people, both adults and bra...kids, "going to nationals", unable to keep all their arrows on the paper.
> 
> I still believe if you want to compete at a national level, ya kinda have to pay your dues first; and if you want to be involved in managing at that level, you have to have the commitment and be able to accept the risks of doing so.


Hi all,

Like a few others have mentioned, once I started reading this thread I just couldn't look away...kinda like a train wreck. To start with, I'm a new member here (still gotta do all the profile stuff, maybe) but some of you will probably remember me or my dad. I won my first Outdoor Nationals when I was 12- back when USAA was still the NAA. And it was the same way, you just had to be able to make it to the shoot to compete. Viper, I see where you're coming from- there are always kids that can't shoot that then spend time looking for arrows, slowing it down, can't do math, etc. But the same can be said of a lot of adults as well, and we all know there are no national-level tournaments that are gonna run quickly, especially outdoors. That's a tough subject there either way :grin: 

All that being said, I am trying to hard to open up my own range/shop so I can get back into competing and I agree with many others here about not getting certified past level 2. Personally, I don't use the NTS, it was after my time, and I don't really know too much about it. What I do know, though, is that we're all different and what might work for one doesn't necessarily work for another, even in archery. I have been certified in the past, but I'm debating about it now. I've worked with many excellent top-tier coaches that were not certified and they all helped me become a better archer for it, but to run JOAD you need it sooooo we'll see.

I've seen a number of people mention Butch, Vic, Rick (awesome to see you active on here, by the way Rick!), and others but let's also not forget about Rob Kaufhold and Tim Strickland; someone mentioned earlier about the psychology of archery, and I gotta say Rob was one of the best coaches I ever worked with when it comes to the mental aspect of the shot process. 

Anyway, I think I've rambled on enough for one post...shoot em if you got em.

-Luke


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

caveman1440 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Like a few others have mentioned, once I started reading this thread I just couldn't look away...kinda like a train wreck. To start with, I'm a new member here (still gotta do all the profile stuff, maybe) but some of you will probably remember me or my dad. I won my first Outdoor Nationals when I was 12- back when USAA was still the NAA. And it was the same way, you just had to be able to make it to the shoot to compete. Viper, I see where you're coming from- there are always kids that can't shoot that then spend time looking for arrows, slowing it down, can't do math, etc. But the same can be said of a lot of adults as well, and we all know there are no national-level tournaments that are gonna run quickly, especially outdoors. That's a tough subject there either way :grin:
> 
> ...


Welcome Luke! I think I may know who you are, if you're the Luke I'm thinking of. Good to have you here.


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