# And here comes Win & Win



## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Looks like some more refreshing of old ideas, plus some other stuff. I do like the look of that radical pro.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

*And here comes Win &amp; Win*










The new one is carbon and might have more dampening, but yeah refresh. I’d still love to try them. Win and Win makes good bows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Gregjlongbow said:


> The new one is carbon and might have more dampening, but yeah refresh. I’d still love to try them. Win and Win makes good bows.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely traces pedigree through the TF Apecs. I was thinking that when I first saw it. And yet somehow... still very appealing...

Wonder if it fits through the BB ring.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

I do like the cutouts in the Radical. Looks much more appealing that the big blocks of carbon currently.


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

I am surprised they dropped the TFT line, I know a lot of archers that love that riser.


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## mikesven (Sep 23, 2019)

TheXringHunt said:


> I am surprised they dropped the TFT line, I know a lot of archers that love that riser.


Me as well, they had recently been posting it quite a bit on their facebook page too.


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## TheXringHunt (Apr 12, 2007)

mikesven said:


> Me as well, they had recently been posting it quite a bit on their facebook page too.


That is true. On Lancaster's web site they have them marked as clearance already, and at that price I may need to get a second TFT riser.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Sucks no new riser in 27". :sad:


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

TheXringHunt said:


> I am surprised they dropped the TFT line, I know a lot of archers that love that riser.


Not so much dropped, as upgraded...???

TFT-G


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Inno CXT is the only one out of the group I would care to own now. I have a mint condition TF Apics that is only a collectors item. The Inno Max and ATX are still my favorite of the last 5 years.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

With the redesigned ATF-X limb pockets the riser looks like what you would get if a GMX and a waffle iron had a kid.


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

bobnikon said:


> Not so much dropped, as upgraded...???
> 
> TFT-G


The TFT-G has already been out for nearly a year anyway, so I don't think it's a real surprise the original TFT has been dropped. The TFT-G is really an incremental upgrade on the same riser as the TFT, so it never really made sense that they produced both.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

Sorry to be Johnny Raincloud here but from the 2020 product releases so far, I think that Gillo took the cake with the GT riser...we'll see what might be next


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Another half dozen "new and improved" things that do exactly the same as the previous years' models. Should have just stuck a proper grip on the Radian and let people be done with it...


---------------------------------
Grumpy old man.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

Certainly looks cool!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Another half dozen "new and improved" things that do exactly the same as the previous years' models. Should have just stuck a proper grip on the Radian and let people be done with it...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Grumpy old man.


You're not wrong.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Stash said:


> Another half dozen "new and improved" things that do exactly the same as the previous years' models. Should have just stuck a proper grip on the Radian and let people be done with it...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Grumpy old man.


I dont think there's much room for innovation in the recurve world as it is. People drone on about "same old bows every year" every time a company launches a new line but what are we expecting? Built in laser guidance? A riser than also makes your morning coffee? I'm convinced the pinnacle of bow technology was reached years ago. Now its just a game of who can market a bunch of useless knick-knacks the best.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm sticking to my CXT, but wondering if the Radical Pro is aluminum? aluminum with a carbon bridge? all carbon?


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## foxtrot9 (Jul 12, 2015)

Are any of these coming out with 23" variants? minus the 23" Inno CXT that is.


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## jiajian54 (Oct 4, 2019)

archeryal said:


> I'm sticking to my CXT, but wondering if the Radical Pro is aluminum? aluminum with a carbon bridge? all carbon?


All Carbon, according to their website.


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## foxtrot9 (Jul 12, 2015)

I think olympic archery is moving to all carbon risers if they like it or not. It seemed like most olympic archers still preferred all aluminum risers for the feedback.


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

foxtrot9 said:


> I think olympic archery is moving to all carbon risers if they like it or not. It seemed like most olympic archers still preferred all aluminum risers for the feedback.


I don't know about that. W&W is pushing it heavily but the other major brands are all still generally aluminum-only. Sure, Uukha is on board with all carbon, but for aluminum we have Hoyt, MK, and Fivics. And then all the barebow focused brands. As you say, most high level competitors seem to prefer aluminum still. For the personal anecdote, I enjoy my ATF *much* more than my TFT.

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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Anyone ever notice how much time we all spend talking about the part of the bow that doesn't move, and how little time we spend talking about about those that do?


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Clearly W&W are big fans of Head. Firstly with the “Graphene” wonder product stickers (I’d like to know how much Graphene actually goes into those products) and now the Radical Pro moniker. Andy Murray and Andre Agassi will be fans... 

Good bows for sure but same over-hype as everything else.

Stretch


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## huckduck (Nov 24, 2014)

UK_Stretch said:


> Clearly W&W are big fans of Head. Firstly with the “Graphene” wonder product stickers (I’d like to know how much Graphene actually goes into those products) and now the Radical Pro moniker. Andy Murray and Andre Agassi will be fans...
> 
> Good bows for sure but same over-hype as everything else.
> 
> Stretch


heh. i made that association too.


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## Speedly (Jan 23, 2019)

Gonna break ranks with you guys and say that the riser in question is revolting when it comes to looks. Even if you gave me one for free, I'd try to offload it as fast as I can.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> Anyone ever notice how much time we all spend talking about the part of the bow that doesn't move, and how little time we spend talking about about those that do?


Don't know about anybody else, but I do.... . In fact, sometimes in the past, I've been the lone voice in the knock-down/drag-out what's-my-handle-made-of threads over in the compound forums saying that this should be at the bottom of the list of things that should be on your mind at full draw. What the handle is actually made out of should only ever enter your mind only once - at the very beginning when you're selecting the desired weight at purchase time; it should then leave your entire brain and never come back. At least until time to buy another one for whatever reason.

All the same, there are terabytes worth of threads on composite vs aluminum vs whatever and there continue to be at an increasing rate, again my knowledge of it being mostly on the compound forums. Only the speed threads exceed those threads in number. And the really important gear concerns like arrow selection remain in about 12th place behind those subjects and a bunch of others dwelling on far less important stuff like hours and hours shimming cams because you never learned how to move your rest, knock-travel and things like that. And shooting itself even further behind that.

All that said, just for the pure reason that I like the lightest mass-weight possible bows I can afford is mainly why composite handles keep my attention. In fact, some years ago when I bought my Inno cxt light, that was the main reason I bought it - it was the lightest mass weight handle I could find.

On the compound side, though, I still stuck with metal handles because of the ones made of composite, I liked exactly 0 of them. Enough dislike that even the lighter weight wasn't enough to pry the CC out of my wallet. Except one or two but by then I didn't have the money.

So what the handle is made out of is probably a discussion we're stuck with now, now that composites have appeared on the scene. But it's all good fun anyway.

lee.


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## pitchfire (Sep 18, 2019)

Taking stone age weaponry out of the stone age one internet battle at a time...


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## jiajian54 (Oct 4, 2019)

The ATF-X actually looks pretty nice. But that price tag of 729.99 + tax is extremely hefty. Not even going to talk about the Radical-Pro... that thing is just absurdly priced.


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

*And here comes Win &amp; Win*

Well to change it to the working parts of the bow...










There were enough questions about how WW got their graphene in the carbon foam, but now they are growing it into the wood!! WTH? How are the making graphene wood cores? 


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Gregjlongbow said:


> Well to change it to the working parts of the bow...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And...what is a "Counter Veil" layer? I'm afraid to ask who might be offended by that. Words matter, like when General Motors tried to market the Chevy Nova in Italy. 

I'm a fan of and shoot both W&W and Hoyt - no one has the high ground when it comes to marketing.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

pretty sure counterveil is also in bee stinger micro hex stabilizers but I could be wrong


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Seattlepop said:


> And...what is a "Counter Veil" layer? I'm afraid to ask who might be offended by that. Words matter, like when General Motors tried to market the Chevy Nova in Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://countervailproducts.com/


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## Fenton Zachary (Nov 18, 2019)

Ohh; That's is great Thank's but I don't like this sorry


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

julle said:


> https://countervailproducts.com/


And here I was thinking it was for those who didn't want to get married - was I ever disappointed !


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Words matter. But... A veil is a cloth or membrane barrier. A counter veil, counter being the adjective, would imply a veil designed to stop something (in this case vibration) as opposed to being some kind of odd objection to the use of a ‘veil’.

It would appear in this case the Koreans have a better grasp of the English language than the righteously indignant.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

Not to high-jack this thread too much but I'm surprised by W&W's recent efforts towards increased user comfort rather than arrow accuracy...I'm curious what their line of thinking is. Any thoughts out there?


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

Countervail is a US company and the “product” can be found in all sorts of products. Heavily used by Wilson tennis rackets (almost all their $200+ rackets) to reduce vibration and same claim for B-Stinger. What’s not to like (if it works).

Stretch


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Maggiemaebe said:


> Not to high-jack this thread too much but I'm surprised by W&W's recent efforts towards increased user comfort rather than arrow accuracy...I'm curious what their line of thinking is. Any thoughts out there?


Bows have been effectively perfect accuracy-wise for a long time. It's the archers who cause arrows to deviate. So, the idea is maybe comfortable archers make fewer mistakes.

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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

tassie_devil said:


> Words matter. But... A veil is a cloth or membrane barrier. A counter veil, counter being the adjective, would imply a veil designed to stop something (in this case vibration) as opposed to being some kind of odd objection to the use of a ‘veil’.
> 
> It would appear in this case the Koreans have a better grasp of the English language than the righteously indignant.


Apparently their better grasp doesn't apply to spelling, the misinterpretation of which has lead some to project righteous indignation.


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

Gregjlongbow said:


> How are the making graphene wood cores?


Graphene shoots are grafted to maple rootstock.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

Countervail from Wilson tennis, obviously


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Ok, people, 

“Countervail” is a verb, meaning to counteract or oppose something in order to negate its influence. There is a company (Wilson) using that word for a carbon product that is intended to reduce vibration. It’s fair guess that Win might be using that material in their risers, and the term “Counter Veil” in the Lancaster pages just a typo.

I’d be willing to bet that “Counter Veil” not only doesn’t remotely have anything to do with veils, it just doesn’t exist.


Also, the Chevy Nova thing was supposed to be from from Spanish speaking countries, not Italy, and is actually an urban legend. Never really happened.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> I dont think there's much room for innovation in the recurve world as it is. People drone on about "same old bows every year" every time a company launches a new line but what are we expecting? Built in laser guidance? A riser than also makes your morning coffee? I'm convinced the pinnacle of bow technology was reached years ago. Now its just a game of who can market a bunch of useless knick-knacks the best.


Really do you think so?


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## Metropolis (Oct 10, 2016)

Stash said:


> Should have just stuck a proper grip on the Radian and let people be done with it...


I used to say the same, except that my small hands loved the Radian's grip : )
But there are some evolutions: the weight/mass has been moved forward especially on Hoyt's risers,
and computing helps to simulate stronger risers (cf. the waffle design on W&W ATF).
So modern risers are a bit better even if the technology is absolutely the same (machined or forged aluminium).


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## dfrois (Apr 19, 2014)

Vittorio said:


> Really do you think so?


From an engineering perspective, I think there are many things that can still evolve positively on the present day risers. Alignment and pre-load, for instance (as Gillo demonstrated with their recent GT risers - boy, would I love to get my hands on one of those), and including alignment markings on the riser itself (don't know of any riser that has them, and they would be really useful). And this is just the more obvious stuff, without going to variable geometry (more or less deflex, for instance - not too difficult to do, mechanically) or materials science. 

Of course, saying that any of this is *essential* to good results is another matter altogether...but it would, perhaps, make it easier to get to a confortable/accurate/repeatable set of settings. As it is, we can get there, but the road is harder...and more expensive.

JMHO, of course.

DF


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Frankly, modern materials and technologies allow to explore solutions never possible before, and this is true for both recurve and compound bows.
You can not compare a Bear compound circa 1974 to any of today compound bows, as you can not compare a Bear Take down, circa 1974, to any of today take down bows. No one can know now what will be the bow of 2040 ...


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

dfrois said:


> ...without going to variable geometry (more or less deflex, for instance - not too difficult to do, mechanically) ..........
> DF


By Bernardini MITO riser, around 1990 ....


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## dfrois (Apr 19, 2014)

Vittorio said:


> By Bernardini MITO riser, around 1990 ....


I didn't know that! Thanks for (yet again) expanding my archery knowledge, Mr. Frangilli. 

I have always liked Bernardini risers. "The aristocracy of bow risers", as someone referred to them.

I can see why, and how it works on the Mito, having seen the Bernardini page on it: 

http://www.bybernardini.com/ByB-museum/mito.htm

Probably an wonderful riser, as usual in Bernardini products. Maybe, even, partial inspiration for the GT risers?

Although, the Mito is not like the solution I was conjuring in my head. I was thinking of a riser with very high deflex, in base geometry, where one could move the grip and arrow rest, as a block, fore and aft ( a limited amount, to be sure, but even 2 cm would be plenty...).

Sorry, just digressing.

DF


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

dfrois said:


> ...Maybe, even, partial inspiration for the GT risers?


I was thinking to start a development from the MITO concept, but when we went into its mechanics, we found so many difficult tasks to solve that riser following those solutions was going to cost a fortune to public, even in today technology.
That way of coupling pockets to riser was developed from the legendary Genesis Compound bow, so advanced for its age that was the originator of many solutions used in compound bows still today. 
Credit for the mechanical (very complex) solution has to be shared between Gianni Bernardini and his partner in the company, Mario Marzaroli, the real engineer behind all Bernardini products.

No, we have not seen the end in the development of bow risers, in reality we are still very very far from it


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## dfrois (Apr 19, 2014)

I often feel that not enough credit is given to Italian engineers for the beautiful mechanical devices they often create, even when the devices themselves are widely known. This is true in cars, planes, engines, and, of course, archery bows...

Science fueled by passion, as I like to think of it. Hats off to Mr. Marzaroli, and to all the other Italian engineers that gave the world beautiful (and often very complex...) mechanics.

DF


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Vittorio said:


> Frankly, modern materials and technologies allow to explore solutions never possible before, and this is true for both recurve and compound bows.
> You can not compare a Bear compound circa 1974 to any of today compound bows, as you can not compare a Bear Take down, circa 1974, to any of today take down bows. No one can know now what will be the bow of 2040 ...


But thats what I mean. Fundamentally, bows from 50 years ago are the same as they are today. The only difference is improvements in the manufacturing process and materials. There hasn't been, and probably never will be a game changing improvement in bows that without question, makes people more accurate. Every year bow companies market all these gadgets that supposedly make the archer better... It only makes them better at a psychological level. Hoyt told everyone formula was a game changer, yet we still have ILF bows shooting just as well, if not better. W&W said graphene was going to be a game changer.... Between my old wood recurve and my shiny new graphene fillled W&W, I dont shoot any differently. So all these "improvements" are just that, gadgets and knick knacks.


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