# Tuning to improve groups



## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Several good threads with good info here lately about tuning.

I'm new to shooting Hoyt target bows (less than a year) and am trying to get the most out of my setup. Most of what I've tried for tuning has been what TN Archer and I have pulled from here and what BH and Javi have shared with me on the phone.

Below is a 50yd group I shot before work yesterday morning. The sticker is an 80cm fita face. I was trying a diff lens so I made an adjustment 1/2 way thru the group to move the sight up, then left. I still need to tweak it a bit. Ignore the two in the 8 ring 

The bow feels pretty good. It may be as good as I'm going to get it, but I doubt it.

What steps would you go through from here on out to prove out that it's optimized if it were your bow?


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

JayMc said:


> Several good threads with good info here lately about tuning.
> 
> I'm new to shooting Hoyt target bows (less than a year) and am trying to get the most out of my setup. Most of what I've tried for tuning has been what TN Archer and I have pulled from here and what BH and Javi have shared with me on the phone.
> 
> ...


your groups are good but they are strung out just a little bit. Next I would try a shorter draw length. just a little 1/8 to 1/4 inch. see if that doesn't change the string effect into more of a clump. Write down where your at because you want to try both sides of the draw length from here. 

for me when I shorten Draw length my groups tend to get tighter but the one that gets away, is out father. But on a field target it doesn't matter because the 4 is a big area, doesn't matter if it is 1/32 out or near the pro line it's the same 4. So I tend to shoot a shorter draw length for field just to have tight group knowing that the one that gets away gets away more. Trick is, is not let the one get away.. 

whew these guys are good..:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Bees said:


> ... just a little 1/8 to 1/4 inch. see if that doesn't change the string effect into more of a clump. Write down where your at because you want to try both sides of the draw length from here.
> 
> whew these guys are good..:


I think an 1/8" is about max I'd want to change DL for these purposes. Alot of times you're dealing with a mere twist, half-twist, or two twists of the string.

First thing I'd do with that group (since it looks like ...... ) is take a half turn off each limb. First appearance of that group, and assuming all your groups are shaped like that, is that there is a slight spine problem or a small rest-windage adjustment needed.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Too many arrows in the target...at least for my taste anyway. 

When I group tune I leave the sight alone...get it close to center and then just let them lay were they may. Adjust your rest to see if they get any tighter. Then move your sight to get it back to center. 

I wouldn't touch your draw though....1/8-1/4" is HUGE.


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## josh_X_wny (Oct 18, 2006)

When you group tune by tweaking windage on your rest, dosent that throw off your centershot (walkback)? 

I have tuned my rest for best paper tear and walkback. Are you guys getting better groups with a different centershot position then ideal for paper and walk back?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Josh....yes I get better groups....your not moving your rest a ton. On a Tuner I have never had to move my rest more then a click or two...usually only one click to get to my sweet spot....your not changing your tear really....

But if your shooting say 3.5" groups at 50 yds and clicking your rest in or out gets you 3" groups....and gets rid of a few fliers.... screw what the paper and walk back tune says.... Group tuning brings you and the bow together. Paper and walk back are starting points....

Now if I could get outside to do some group tuning I would be happy :chortle:


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Brown Hornet said:


> Too many arrows in the target...at least for my taste anyway.
> 
> When I group tune I leave the sight alone...get it close to center and then just let them lay were they may. Adjust your rest to see if they get any tighter. Then move your sight to get it back to center.
> 
> I wouldn't touch your draw though....1/8-1/4" is HUGE.


I'm shooting 1/16" shorter that I was indoors and I like it. If anything it's a hair short, but it feels really good. I'd rather not mess with it b/c it's the ONE thing I feel really good about


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> ... On a Tuner I have never had to move my rest more then a click or two...


...and on an Infinity I just put the wrench in it, take the slack out, and move the end of the allen wrench a 1/4" or so...maybe like a sixteenth of a turn.

And pay attention to what BH said. It doesn't matter where they hit, just the group size, we can always sight in after we get it right.


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

I have to agree w/Bob
Looks like a spine problem---you'll find it quicker at 80yds than at 50---but somthing more than 60yds will tell better
If at 80 ---taking a little wt off doesn't bring them together---then you may have a technique issue---like release pressure----try a completely different style to see if your hor. center changes/better then work on---no influence centerline


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## RchurE (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, he said he moved the sight both up and left so I say this group is inconclusive to give any advice. It may be a line and it may not. We don't know how much what was moved and all that. Before I'd go changing anything I'd shoot 3 or 4 groups of 4 or 5 arrows each, take pics of them, and let's look at that. Because if you moved your sight both horizontally and vertically *during* this group then they may have all grouped right together with the two flyers you took responsibility for and then one just out low.


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## therster (Jan 14, 2010)

*Spine Problem*



Bobmuley said:


> I think an 1/8" is about max I'd want to change DL for these purposes. Alot of times you're dealing with a mere twist, half-twist, or two twists of the string.
> 
> First thing I'd do with that group (since it looks like ...... ) is take a half turn off each limb. First appearance of that group, and assuming all your groups are shaped like that, is that there is a slight spine problem or a small rest-windage adjustment needed.


Could you please post a response or pm me with more detail about how to diagnose a spine problem by looking at a group of arrows?

Thank you,
Tom


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

therster said:


> Could you please post a response or pm me with more detail about how to diagnose a spine problem by looking at a group of arrows?
> 
> Thank you,
> Tom


Add a www to the front of this. dudleyarchery.info/articles/BI50conquering.pdf

He can explain it far better than I ever could.


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Bob - 1/2 turn on the limb bolts and the 60yd groups went from an east/west oval to a nice circle this AM. Getting closer


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

JayMc said:


> Getting closer


Good for you!:thumbs_up


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

JayMc said:


> Bob - 1/2 turn on the limb bolts and the 60yd groups went from an east/west oval to a nice circle this AM. Getting closer


You must go beyond 60 to get it really fine tuned---
at 70-80yds you'll be able to see results down to 1 flat on the allen wrench now that you are getting close

You are obviously shooting well---you might as well get the most out of it

Good shoot'n keep it up

Cec


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

C Doyle 88 said:


> You must go beyond 60 to get it really fine tuned---
> at 70-80yds you'll be able to see results down to 1 flat on the allen wrench now that you are getting close
> 
> You are obviously shooting well---you might as well get the most out of it
> ...


70-80???? I can't even point that far 

I'll give it a run at 70 in the AM. :thumbs_up


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## rudeman (Jan 25, 2006)

Here's part of an interview with Braden Gallenthien regarding group tuning. I remember reading it a couple years ago and found it helpful. 

"Basically, when I'm group tuning, I go back to 70 meters and just unload my quiver. I shoot between 12-15 arrows at the dot and get an overall idea of what my group looks like. If my group is too wide left and right, I'll adjust the weight in order to tighten the group to a more desirable width, and if the group has too much high-low variance, I'll adjust the height of the rest to work that out. 

At this point, I actually find it easier to NOT be sighted in. You're only trying to get an idea for what your group looks like... Normally, when I'm group tuning, my impact is somewhere out in the red/blue areas... and it moves with each end as I make adjustments. It's important to keep a log with each adjustment that you make and your overall impression of the group that the adjustment resulted in. This way, you'll get a better understanding of how these changes affect you, in particular. We all know how things are supposed to behave in theory, but let's face it, rarely does everything work in real-life the way it should in the book."


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Took the advice in this thread to heart today and re-did the setup on my bow....

Hoyt VantagePro with Spiral X's...28.5#/53lbs....Not grouping as well as it should, stringing them out left to right from 7 to 7....

X10 Protour 470's 110gr points cut to 27"....

First shot it through paper...wicked tail high/left tear! Clicked the Tuner rest in a few clicks and it was much better. For fun, I turned the weight up about two turns and the left tear is gone! Lowered the rest a touch and now I have a bullet hole!

Took it back to 70m....all in the gold now!

Thanks all!


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Took the advice in this thread to heart today and re-did the setup on my bow....
> 
> Hoyt VantagePro with Spiral X's...28.5#/53lbs....Not grouping as well as it should, stringing them out left to right from 7 to 7....
> 
> ...


Great news!!!!!!!

We get crap done down in these sub-forums


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## outback jack (Aug 12, 2006)

Just to add a little more to it, I had a few sprayers at 60 so I decided to drop my rest a very small amount and bam they tightened up. I would have tried some more but ran out of time so I'll just roll with that for now.


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

outback jack said:


> Just to add a little more to it, I had a few sprayers at 60 so I decided to drop my rest a very small amount and bam they tightened up. I would have tried some more but ran out of time so I'll just roll with that for now.


What rest and how nock high are you now? I'm ~1/8 high, just a little less.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

JayMc said:


> Great news!!!!!!!
> 
> We get crap done down in these sub-forums



I was changing all kinds of stuff....stabilizer weights, releases, reticles, everything! Just went back to the basics and got it shooting right again!


One thing I have learned.....Protour's are not the arrow to experiment with! I am still amazed at how great my ACC's fly!


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I was changing all kinds of stuff....stabilizer weights, releases, reticles, everything! Just went back to the basics and got it shooting right again!
> 
> 
> One thing I have learned.....Protour's are not the arrow to experiment with! I am still amazed at how great my ACC's fly!


My intent is to work my way into them. I'm proving/disproving my tuning methods with Navigators first though.


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## outback jack (Aug 12, 2006)

JayMc said:


> What rest and how nock high are you now? I'm ~1/8 high, just a little less.


I'm using a tt spring steel 1 hole micro adjust. I wanted to put the infinity on but would just have to take it off when the contender gets here. I was at 90 deg and dropped it maybe a 1/32" so I'm still pretty close to 90 deg may end up going a little lower with my rest so my nock point will be maybe 1/16" high.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*I tried it*



Bobmuley said:


> Add a www to the front of this. dudleyarchery.info/articles/BI50conquering.pdf
> 
> He can explain it far better than I ever could.


Read the article and gave it a try and it worked like a charm. Thanks for the info. I did this at 50 yards and started with 8 arrows and when I was done I had only 2 with nocks left on them. If I told you what arrows I was shooting you would not believe me!!


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## JayMc (Jan 4, 2005)

Correction, the sticker I was using is a 60cm face.


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

Scott.Barrett said:


> I was changing all kinds of stuff....stabilizer weights, releases, reticles, everything! Just went back to the basics and got it shooting right again!
> 
> 
> One thing I have learned.....Protour's are not the arrow to experiment with! I am still amazed at how great my ACC's fly!





Why not use the Protours? Just curious. I just got some, and haven't shot htem yet, but will be using them with a VE. Will be setting it up this week and plan on playing with it a bit to get as tight as possible. Papertune, walkback, then I'll group tune at 50. But if Im going to use the protours, why not use them for the tuning?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

r49740 said:


> Why not use the Protours? Just curious. I just got some, and haven't shot htem yet, but will be using them with a VE. Will be setting it up this week and plan on playing with it a bit to get as tight as possible. Papertune, walkback, then I'll group tune at 50. But if Im going to use the protours, why not use them for the tuning?



By all means, shoot the ProTours...I spent a lot of time cutting and really should have left them longer, so I need to order some new ones!!!!:angry:


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## njshadowwalker (Aug 14, 2004)

After reading this thread i have one question. For those saying use the rest to get your group to come in..... Are you meaning that say aout of 8 arrows...5 group nice and tight at "x" distance and you have say three right fliers...Your clicking your tuners to the left to bring the strays in?

Im hearing more about rest movement to bring the fliers in but most guys say its best done when you plan to shoot a single distance. Say the gold cup where your shooting straight 70 meters this year. 

Is this where your saying this tuning style is prominently used?

Ive come to believe that for me the tiller tuning process hass gotten my pin to dead dead nuts on target. And the bow draws and reacts better with my tiller out where it is.

I'd like to hear more detail into using the rest after the inital walk back and nock point adjustments are done.

Can never have tooo much info. Plus it related to the thread:darkbeer:

Lets hear it!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

njshadowwalker said:


> After reading this thread i have one question. For those saying use the rest to get your group to come in..... Are you meaning that say aout of 8 arrows...5 group nice and tight at "x" distance and you have say three right fliers...Your clicking your tuners to the left to bring the strays in?
> 
> Im hearing more about rest movement to bring the fliers in but most guys say its best done when you plan to shoot a single distance. Say the gold cup where your shooting straight 70 meters this year.
> 
> ...


Yes that's exactly what I am saying or implying.....

Tiller tuning helps the bow hold best for you....group tuning makes the arrows, you and the bow work best together group wise.


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