# Lets talk feet



## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

I hear about feet placement and was wondering what others do that maybe i don't do.
i'm comfortable with shoulder width toes slightly turned out.


----------



## loveha (Mar 11, 2014)

Whatever feels natural that is shoulder width apart. It's the first thing I focus on when I step up to the line. Make sure I'm facing the right direction, and that I am comfortable standing where I am at. In my opinion, without a solid foundation, you are not properly ready to shoot.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

pops said:


> I hear about feet placement and was wondering what others do that maybe i don't do.
> i'm comfortable with shoulder width toes slightly turned out.


What's uncomfortable for you about it? I have a write up on finding the right foot placement for yourself, but I'd like to know more about your situation.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

pops said:


> I hear about feet placement and was wondering what others do that maybe i don't do.
> i'm comfortable with shoulder width toes slightly turned out.


As to what? Indoors? Field and 3D?


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Another thing to worry about that is not needed.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

cbrunson said:


> Another thing to worry about that is not needed.


I disagree - the stance is one of those items that's basic to a good shot and getting it right should be a part of the shot sequence. If it's neglected, subtle things can go wrong in the shot in mysterious ways. That said, I have found that it doesn't matter as much what stance I use just as long as it's comfortable and repeatable. I still use a square stance, feet shoulder width apart with the feet angled out naturally, as the OP describes. OTOH, I have some physical limitations that make a more open stance difficult so I've kept with the square stance myself.

So, what the OP describes doesn't sound unusual to me, but the advice given here to not worry about it is poor, IMO. In my experience, it's a critical part of the shot.

DM


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sort of agree with cbrunson. Most use the said to use stance and adjust to best for them, weight evenly distributed down on both feet and feet should be as they are naturally, not purposely turned in or out. No sense in getting people thinking about something and trying something different that will screw up things....

Might be wrong, but I thought there was a discussion on this around when I/A started up. Don't think I fully agreed, but close. 

Why I questioned as I did, Indoor floors are solid flat. Rare is a Field or 3D course with even footing.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I also agree with cbrunson. Standing, like breathing, under differing loads and surfaces are things we have been doing since we were infants and each has become automatic allowing us to perform the tasks we ask of the body. We will naturally find the correct stance for our bodies that will allow us to draw and hold a bow without toppling over regardless of the surface, so there is little need to muddy the waters for a beginner shooter with a lot of bio-mechanical mumbo jumbo.

However, to learn to shoot on uneven terrain or very gusty conditions; or to actively lengthen or shorten one's dynamic draw length in response to the orientation of the target being shot involves making minute changes in one's stance to maximize the shot accuracy on target, but discussing these types of things was not the intent of the OP's query.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Sort of agree with cbrunson. Most use the said to use stance and adjust to best for them, weight evenly distributed down on both feet and feet should be as they are naturally, not purposely turned in or out. No sense in getting people thinking about something and trying something different that will screw up things....
> 
> Might be wrong, but I thought there was a discussion on this around when I/A started up. Don't think I fully agreed, but close.
> 
> Why I questioned as I did, Indoor floors are solid flat. Rare is a Field or 3D course with even footing.


To me, though, the stance is like any other part of my shot - I've had to start out learning how to do it correctly (for me); but only after that does it become something I don't pay attention to consciously. It's like any skill in the shot, in other words. So, not worrying about it is only something I do after I've "worried" about learning it to start with, I'll put it that way. 

And yes it's the same thing shooting field - proper stance on uneven ground, etc., is something I've had to learn how to do properly (for me). And I have to practice it regularly to make sure I'm up to speed with it. Course, as I've gotten older and fatter, I'm relearning what I'm capable of out at our range lol... So it's definitely something I have to stay on top of .

DM


----------



## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

on the 3d course i find it hard to get in the best stance every time,understandably. shooting spots it seems like using the stance
i use (shoulder width toe pointed slightly out) it seems that i want to lean backwards i have tried deferent feet positions some seem better but they aren't comfortable.some where i heard to put more weight on the ball of your feet???


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

If you're twisting a foot outwards then it will lose some of it's balancing properties because you are taking it out of alingment with the ankles, knees, and hips. This could be causing you to lean back and be unbalanced. 

You want to keep the feet point forward in their normal position and move the front foot "opened" or "closed" to set it.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Feet width and toe angle is something that really does just kind of fall into place since it follows your natural relaxed stance. Whether to open or close the stance is a question of your torso and shoulder flexibility and how that relates to the drawlength/release set-up.
Generally for indoor use you want a set-up which is as stable as possible with the least effort possible. For most people this seems to be a neutral stance.

Outdoor is where purposefully adding tension in your core with a more open stance can be beneficial. This requires you to twist your torso in order to achieve alignment which kind of pre-loads the core. Very common with high-level recurve archers and some compound shooters. Will require a bit of draw length adjustment to make it work for you. Personally I don't have the flexibility to shoot a very open stance.

When it comes to uneven footing you will see a lot of high-level field shooters bring their feet quite close together. It's not perfect but it does seem to be more stable then the other approach (which is incidentally what most beginners do when faced with uneven terrain).

Leaning back can be a question of draw length being too long or a high bow-shoulder.

-Grant


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

I havent read anyone mention the root principals of your stance functions at all here... 
I have seen mention of width of spread and angle of toes however this is not the main factor of a proper stance. However there are two major principals that absent from previous replies.
What im speaking of is your NATURAL POINT OF AIM, and INNER FEEL. 
Your stance needs to contend with positional rotation and body sway. 

I will challenge all of you to this test: 
Take your normal stance approach and load bow and come to full draw, achieve your full-draw position, then anchor. Acquire your target along your line of sight and close your eyes for 12 seconds then re open them and see if your still aligned with your target center point of aim. Are you high / low, left /right of where you started? 
Also is your direct line of sight ( visual alignment) still in alignment as your initially arranged it? ( eyeball- peep- scope or housing alignment)
Why not? What happened? 
Do this cycle three times and see if at least your still getting the SAME RESULTS all three times....on target center or not. 
Now we need to achieve all three cycles resulting in the same position on the target center as well as maintaining visual alignment of your sighting components...
Tell me what happened..... Please


----------



## abbykristine (Jul 26, 2013)

I have a NTS form. So shoulder width apart with my foot closer to the target, place slightly back and turned out just a bit. I also have a tendency to lean back a bit and pull all my weight on the heels of my feet which disrupts my alignments so I was taught to lean a bit forward and shift my weight to the balls of my feet. Plus comfortable shoes make a huge difference more me. Some of my shoes encourages my lean to be corrected while other shoes discourage this correction.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Out at the range right now with the compound, so tried this exercise. I went slightly high and right, about on the upper right corner of the target each time.... Interesting and very cool.......

DM


----------



## pops (Oct 10, 2015)

just back from shooting where i tried some of the ideas you guys threw out there. I squared my feet back up and took a 1/4 step back with my left foot ( right handed) that worked out great every thing was comfortable. you guys give out good advise
thank you


----------



## loveha (Mar 11, 2014)

Natural Point of Aim, one of the basics of rifle marksmanship taught in the US Marine Corps.
Most of which can also be applied to Archery as well. 
MCRP 3-01A 
Chapter 4

That is why I said in my first post I make sure I'm facing the right direction, which is a certian angle from the target. If you do the test explained above about closing your eyes and then opening them a moment later, you should at least remain on paper, if not the target you were aiming at.


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

Ok now with your test results you will be able to see if you have a solid natural foundation or if you are experiencing a pre loaded shift (in the direction you are intending to aim) towards the direction that your stance is NATURALLY aiming. There is a reaction to every action, so as far as the stance is concerned we are looking to position our feet knees and hips in such a way to allow us to remain aimed on target throughout the entire shot process. If we do not achieve this our bodies will not be pointed in the same location as we are trying to aim . This will cause a certain loss of accuracy regardless of how we execute the remainder of the shot process.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Various things have significance for people at different levels, so I won't try to lead anyone to believe that trying to get your stance perfectly the same is a waste of time, but I will say that everything you add to your list of things you have to get perfect in order to shoot a good shot, is just more things to kill your confidence. I know a lot of things have to be conquered in the beginning. Some right away, and some can wait, but the more you worry about getting perfect and don't trust to "feel", the less you will be able to focus on what is truly important. 

When I step up to the line or stake, I think about two things. Holding and execution. If it's not holding, I go through the things I've learned to get it figured out and then focus on the release. That is all I'm going to worry about. 

You could spend weeks or months getting that perfect stance dialed up on flat ground and it all goes out the window as soon as you step on to a field course, or go to an indoor range that has carpet instead of concrete. The same goes for wearing the same shoes every time you shoot. I've shot the same scores in cowboy boots as I have in hiking shoes and sandals. The more you add to your mental baggage, the more it will mess with you if you can't create the exact same conditions. It's pointless and unnecessary.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> Might be wrong, but I thought there was a discussion on this around when I/A started up.


If I remember right that was the one with some folks claiming the need to rotate your feet when moving from a spot on the left to one on the right.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> If I remember right that was the one with some folks claiming the need to rotate your feet when moving from a spot on the left to one on the right.


I believe you are correct. I just sort like the center of the target off the front corner of my bow shoulder. Me, that ain't much of movement.
Me; 5 spot, bottom right, bottom left, middle, top left, top right. Vegas, bottom right, bottom left, top.


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

cbrunson, the point of of training on the aspects of a solid foundation ( like EVERY other principal of shot execution) is so that it becomes sub-conscious and automatic. I dont believe that "figuring it out " while at full draw is conducive to a QUIET MIND AT FULL-DRAW!! And it will adversely effect your ability to handle stress and repeat the form necessary to achieve your full potential. 
This a skill set based sport. The shot sequence is a flowing transition of consistently progressive acts. If you have to "figure out "in the middle of your sequence you are second guessing what you have previously arranged in the shot sequence that will destroy the ability to get into the FLOW during high level competition. Meaning the mind will not be quiet and the skills will not be performed sub consciously.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

TRB said:


> I havent read anyone mention the root principals of your stance functions at all here...
> I have seen mention of width of spread and angle of toes however this is not the main factor of a proper stance. However there are two major principals that absent from previous replies.
> What im speaking of is your NATURAL POINT OF AIM, and INNER FEEL.
> Your stance needs to contend with positional rotation and body sway.
> ...


12 seconds? Little past the said best count of 7 seconds if I read you right. Each person finding his or her stance, it's no different than what I noted in post #7.
Challenges? I like challenges. Some times too much. Feet down, best bow fit is what made it happen...Haven't done it in a while, but I think I could again....


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

Sunny T
The 12 second hold is for the NPA drill. I was not referring to the optimum shot duration. You would have to establish your optimum shot time window as an average amount of seconds to deliver the shot within. That will be an average only and it will change as you become more proficient over time.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

TRB said:


> cbrunson, the point of of training on the aspects of a solid foundation ( like EVERY other principal of shot execution) is so that it becomes sub-conscious and automatic. I dont believe that "figuring it out " while at full draw is conducive to a QUIET MIND AT FULL-DRAW!! And it will adversely effect your ability to handle stress and repeat the form necessary to achieve your full potential.
> This a skill set based sport. The shot sequence is a flowing transition of consistently progressive acts. If you have to "figure out "in the middle of your sequence you are second guessing what you have previously arranged in the shot sequence that will destroy the ability to get into the FLOW during high level competition. Meaning the mind will not be quiet and the skills will not be performed sub consciously.


Agree. Yes, it's absolutely true there are little details that ultimately qualify as what's being called "mental baggage", but the stance is just simply not one of them. Higher level coaches like John Dudley, for example, spend a lot of time talking about the stance and even the shoes you wear, and, IMO, they do so for a good reason. So I'm afraid I have to maintain my position about the stance as an integral part of my shot and not something to sluff off. Believe me, I shot with a bad stance for a long time so I know the difference between that and a more suitable one .

In fact, the drill you had you me do yesterday (thank you  ) showed me that, while mine is really close, it could still use some more attention. I'm not above revising any part of my shot, as, er... the target will amply attest to, I'll put it that way. 

PS: here's another example of close attention to the stance. Coach KIM Hyung Tak teaching another coach how to coach the stance. Foot placement and basic posture goes on for almost 7 minutes in this lecture. It's definitely not considered any kind of "mental baggage" by the Koreans, anyway  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOq5cJV1VRU

DM


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The thing is, if by the OP, if you're already competing, your feet already know where to go. Adjustments are made through shooting and hopefully a person is not over bowed or over drawn. If I were to watch someone, be present, then I could perhaps determine if other foot adjustment is needed. The biggest problem for us, we are here and one wanting help is somewhere else. What's best in this case? The set standard, what is comfortable and natural and natural is pretty close to that when at full draw. Fact is, you don't go to the line with worrying about your feet. This should already be ironed out...


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> The thing is, if by the OP, if you're already competing, your feet already know where to go.


Not necessarily LOL. Particularly if you're losing!

If one is only a World Cup finalist in one's head and not actually on TV, I'd simply say don't be above including the stance in the set of things to reexamine!

For me, _even if_ what I eventually arrive at is simply what the body most naturally does, it's necessary work that I have to do in developing my shot. I understand the idea of unnecessary baggage and I think that's an excellent point - there _are_ minutiae that are only distractions and don't aid you in any way. But my hair stands on end at the thought of the stance being suggested as one of those items, is all I'm saying. 

I did TRB's exercise out at the range yesterday and discovered that I do drift a little bit. And I'm not winning any tournaments. Hrm.... 2+2 kind of equals 4 doesn't it LOL. So I'm going to pay some more attention to it. Sloughing it off as a unnecessary work is not below me, anyway. Others' mileage may vary of course.

DM


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

TRB said:


> cbrunson, the point of of training on the aspects of a solid foundation ( like EVERY other principal of shot execution) is so that it becomes sub-conscious and automatic. I dont believe that "figuring it out " while at full draw is conducive to a QUIET MIND AT FULL-DRAW!! And it will adversely effect your ability to handle stress and repeat the form necessary to achieve your full potential.
> This a skill set based sport. The shot sequence is a flowing transition of consistently progressive acts. If you have to "figure out "in the middle of your sequence you are second guessing what you have previously arranged in the shot sequence that will destroy the ability to get into the FLOW during high level competition. Meaning the mind will not be quiet and the skills will not be performed sub consciously.


I understand your point perfectly and agree it is important for a beginner to learn how to stand. The post below is exactly what I'm talking about. I've gone through all of the consistency ideas, even as far as wearing the same type of shirt and found many of those things to just be mental burdens. Minimize your mental burdens. 

The last thing I want to pop in my head while I'm trying to maintain the right amount of back tension is whether or not my toes are pointed in the right direction. 



SonnyThomas said:


> The thing is, if by the OP, if you're already competing, your feet already know where to go. Adjustments are made through shooting and hopefully a person is not over bowed or over drawn. If I were to watch someone, be present, then I could perhaps determine if other foot adjustment is needed. The biggest problem for us, we are here and one wanting help is somewhere else. What's best in this case? The set standard, what is comfortable and natural and natural is pretty close to that when at full draw. Fact is, you don't go to the line with worrying about your feet. This should already be ironed out...


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dmacey said:


> I did TRB's exercise out at the range yesterday and discovered that I do drift a little bit. And I'm not winning any tournaments. Hrm.... 2+2 kind of equals 4 doesn't it LOL. So I'm going to pay some more attention to it. Sloughing it off as a unnecessary work is not below me, anyway. Others' mileage may vary of course.
> DM


By and large most will drift some if just holding at full draw. Bow fitted well drift is less. Did you have tension (pre-load) to hold you on target or just hold? Do the same thing, get on target, know you're on target, close your eyes and execute. Yep, shoot. Not confident, stand close, 10 yards. If you do well, add some yards.


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> By and large most will drift some if just holding at full draw. Bow fitted well drift is less. Did you have tension (pre-load) to hold you on target or just hold? Do the same thing, get on target, know you're on target, close your eyes and execute. Yep, shoot. Not confident, stand close, 10 yards. If you do well, add some yards.


Well, I shoot a tension-style release, so that part of my shot cycle is a little different. Starting at just up against the wall and pulling into it through the shot is more or less how tension-style releases "have" to be used (which from the sound of it isn't what you want to do with a hinge-style?). So there's not quite the same concept of back tension preload there - it's a little more like a recurve shot where there's a steady and increasing pull with the back all the way through. 

Anyway, what I did was come lightly to the wall like usual and released the safety, but without hitting my mental "execute" button. Closed eyes for about 10 secs and when opened I was up in about the 1 or 2 ring, high and slightly right.... So I'm close but there's still some work there sounds like I can do.....

DM


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Note: draw length changes as foot position changes.
If your pulling one way or another when doin the eyes closed for 12 seconds thing, you are learning as much about your DL as your foot position.
Basically, if you open your stance, your bow will feel longer. So if your pulling to one side, is it your feet, or is it your DL? The answer is yes.


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

When you take the shooting position on the line the ONLY thing on your mind should be to achieve the proper foot spread and stager in relation to the target center. That is at least until this has been completed and confirmed, at which point you then consciously proceed to the following step in your shot sequence. By that time the mind is not carrying any baggage into the following form steps. It has accepted that the preceding steps have been performed properly and will remain stable throughout the remainder of the shot. This level of acceptance is not easily obtained without the necessary training drills and constant evaluation that eventually leads to THE TRUST LEVEL. And so and so on, until the entire shot form is perfected and peak accuracy potential has been developed. 
The mind can now be QUIET as it performs shot after shot end after end.


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

Mahly said:


> Note: draw length changes as foot position changes.
> If your pulling one way or another when doin the eyes closed for 12 seconds thing, you are learning as much about your DL as your foot position.
> Basically, if you open your stance, your bow will feel longer. So if your pulling to one side, is it your feet, or is it your DL? The answer is yes.


Yes this is why it is necessary to start at the roots of the body's foundation and its needs for sustained stability. 
How many times have shooters overlooked this and other form steps and attempted their draw length fit based on an improper shooting foundation. This leads to sub standard hold and will also play a crucial determining factor in the ability to execute flawless release technique. 
I believe that if you neglect core shooting elements in beginning of your shot your going to have an even greater loss if potential control at the conclusion of your shot.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Been watching this thread but hadn't posted, to me when it comes your feet they are your foundation and must be perfect. If they aren't perfect then you are screwed from the ground up and will always be working around the poor foundation that you have chosen to have. 

With that said it is probably the easiest part of a shot to set in stone and can be done in less than one shooting session, once it is done and you have them perfect after a few weeks it will become a good habit and from then on something you never have to think about again.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Been watching this thread but hadn't posted, to me when it comes your feet they are your foundation and must be perfect. If they aren't perfect then you are screwed from the ground up and will always be working around the poor foundation that you have chosen to have.
> 
> With that said it is probably the easiest part of a shot to set in stone and can be done in less than one shooting session, once it is done and you have them perfect after a few weeks it will become a good habit and from then on something you never have to think about again.


:thumbs_up


----------



## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

[emoji106] yup exactly gee 3 agree 


Staff shooter Dream Shot Archery makers of Twisted Minds bowstrings. 
Hoyt Pro Comp Elite XL 54# 
AXcel Acheive sight. Spot Hogg rest. TRU Ball HBX , HBC


----------



## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

I agree that a beginner has to be tought a correct foot position, but I believe that an advanced archer is much more likely to repeat a good position subconsciously and get better results than with checking it every time.
From what I learned our body is very capable knowing when something feels right and when it doesn't.
When I actively check and think about my stance every shot I get way too much "noise". I look for imperfections and stop listening to the feeling that tells me everything is good.
Plus if there's the slightest doubt this doubt will get carried along in my shot routine making my shot way less confindend. Especially under stress this can get blown out of proportion fast.


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

For you older paper punchers I understand why you think this is a non issue. You shoot a lot of arrows at a practice session/tournament, the same foot position every time. For me being a 3D guy I rarely have my feet in the same position except the winter indoor 3D league I shoot in. So I am very interested in the exercise mentioned earlier and I will be trying this even though I have been shooting since 1970. I am never to old to learn.


----------



## TRB (Nov 28, 2002)

You will see that the correct stance geometry and posture will bring you through the shot with steadiness of sight as well as a strong platform from which to create excellent back-tension form!


----------

