# Arrow tip from Tim Gillingham



## SonnyThomas

Got this in email yesterday... If of value fine, if not, delete.

Long, I have to submit in two parts..........

*Shaft Recommendations and Tuning Tips for Optimal Performance*

By: Tim Gillingham

There are many factors that contribute to a so called “perfect” setup. Your arrows are arguably one of the most important. You can maximize your competitiveness by your approach to selecting the right arrow for the task at hand and understanding the most effective way to tune and set them up. There are many considerations and this article is designed to give my insight into how I choose the arrow setups I will use for the variety of different types of archery that I shoot
Here are some of the basic fundamentals that we must understand about arrows to be able to understand the correct way to figure out the entire arrow setup which includes the point, vanes and shafts being used.
1. Point weight--point weight fights off the planing motion of a bare shaft by resisting the arrow steering right or left. If you get the point weight heavy enough, I have seen it almost override anything that is happening behind it. That doesn't mean that you should shoot 250 grain points in everything because that would murder your speed which is also important in the equation of a competitive setup. There is a balance in everything. But, heavier point weights and FOC does calm down the planing effects of a bare shaft and broadhead tipped arrows. Just make sure the arrow is stiff enough to handle it.

2. Vane Size--One of the worst things you can do for accuracy is to put too small of a vane on the arrow, especially a stiffer shaft with a lighter point. As you add point weight you can shoot a smaller vane as you are stabilizing the bare shaft more on the front end so less is needed on the rear end. This applies very well to field and FITA archery as you have the requirement of running smaller vanes to eliminate the drag effect that causes the arrow to slow down and increase the amount of wind drift you are getting. In 3-D, bigger vane size does not hurt because you are only shooting 50 yards and the vane will not drag the arrow down like it will as the arrow approaches 60-70 yards. Keep in mind this is a give and take scenario. If you are running a really light arrow, it will slow down sooner and faster than a heavier arrow. It is one of the reasons for field and FITA I recommend the shooter shoot as heavy of an arrow as possible and keep their speed around 270. Weight will help in terms of wind drift, much more than speed at longer distances as the arrow keeps its momentum better. In conclusion, use as much vane as you can up to the point you are losing something.

3. Tune--With a stiffer shaft you will need to make sure you tune the setup better as a stiffer shaft will want to plane faster than one with a little more flex in it. Also, Bigger diameter shafts will plane faster as they act kinf of like a bigger sail on a sailboat. I prefer a bullet-hole/perfect bare shaft tune with four fletch vanes. I think this provides the optimal correction for any mistake. If you start the shaft out, not in perfect alignment with the power stroke of the string, the vanes are working instantly to correct the planning bare shaft. On the other hand if it starts out very straight, with the power stroke of the string being driven down the center of the arrow, then the vanes will be more efficient in their correction of any mistake you make. The only kicker with four fletch is you really need to shoot a dropaway for clearance. I personally like the Hamskea Versa Rest which allows me to shoot a blade on a limb driven dropaway. With a stiffer shaft it is much more optimal to have a flexible launcher like a spring steel because a stiffer shaft cycles much faster and you can have a lot of collision with the blade or launcher causing clearance and tuning issues. A little side pressure created by bending the launcher up on the side will help the shaft correct muck faster on the front end before it gets too far out of alignment. The recommendations that I make for 3-d and target arrows are as follows and for these specific reasons
ASA-297 FPS Speed limit--I recommend and use the largest diameter shaft I can get to speed(295-297) with at least the middle weight point offered for the shaft
1. Series 22 --80
2. X-cutter -90
3. 30X -100
4. Triple X --100
I really do not pay attention to spine other than to make sure I am stiff enough. However, it is important to understand how a stiffer shaft (and a more dynamically consistent shaft) should be treated. It may make your bow show a different tune but what it is really showing you, is what is wrong with the bow. It shows how bad the nock travel is. I look at this as an opportunity to fix the problem. I never tune the arrow to the bow but rather tune the bow to the arrow. It is a much better way of doing things and allows you to drive the power stroke of the string right down the dead center of the arrow. If you want to tune the arrow to the bow, you will find one setup that works and it can be a pain in the butt and very expensive. On the other hand if you clean up the nock travel you can shoot virtually any shaft that you would like as long as it is stiff enough.

For Example: If I have a left tear, it simply tells me that the string has hit the shaft left of center. Small adjustments in the cable load, arrow rest, yokes and even wheel spacing can correct this problem yet ever paper chart says this is a weak arrow....Bull. If you decrease poundage, what are you doing? You are decreasing the load on the cable guard and in effect repositioning the string in relationship to the centerline of the arrow shaft. If you run into any real problems you can’t solve contact me or one of our customer service reps at Gold Tip.

*IBO(5grains per pound)*: Shoot the biggest diameter shaft you can get up to 5 grain per pound or the speed you want to run....with at least the middle weight point offered for that shaft. You can go less but I usually recommend this as a safe bet. Less point weight is just a little more sensitive to your mistakes but with the right fletching you can mediate some of this sensitivity by keep the back of the arrow in alignment with the front. If the back does not get out of alignment with the front, the front cannot plane.

*Field/FITA Archery: * Shoot the Ultralight, Pro Hunter or Kinetic shaft based on the following criteria. 
Shoot and arrow setup that reduces kiss outs as you will be shooting groups. The new unibushing may be a little better that the pin nock in that equation, but I prefer the pin nock due to the fact I can tell when they are damaged and I like the rigidity of the pin nock system. Heavier points in the 120-170 range will allow you to shoot smaller vanes and reduce glanceouts. 
Keep in mind the point weight is one of the biggest stabilizing factors with the bare shaft but experiment with vane size for optimal control and forgiveness. In this equation you will want to stay a little closer to so called "optimal spine" as the smaller you go with the shaft the more spine sensitive they seem to be simply because you are presenting a smaller target to the power stroke of the string and you have the requirement of running smaller vanes. It doesn't hurt to have a little flex if you make a mistake and the smaller shaft is hit off center. This seems to be less of an issue as you go up in diameter and you don’t have the necessity of running small vanes. Make sure you have enough spine to handle the point weight though so don’t be afraid to keep the shafts a little shorter to stiffen them. Follow the tuning steps below to make sure you are stiff enough. You want to shoot as heavy of a shaft as possible with at least 100-120 but even more can help and many of our shooters shoot 140-170 grain in the point. Your optimal speed should be around 270 FPS +/-10. This will be the most efficient long range and wind setup. The heavier the shaft and skinnier the shaft, the better it maintains it's speed and momentum. There is a happy medium in everything and you will find the smaller you go with a shaft the harder they are to tune. Also, for the same reason we shoot large diameter arrows indoors and for 3-D to catch lines, the same holds true for Field and FITA shooting as long as you can minimize wind drift and kiss outs.


----------



## SonnyThomas

*Indoor: * Indoor is simple. Shoot the biggest shaft you can get with a reasonable speed. Speed does matter a little bit indoors. Not as much as other types of archery but it definitely matters. The biggest question is what length and what point weight. Personally, I have seen so many different setups work extremely well that it is hard to really say what is optimal. Personally, I think cut within an inch of the rest with a decent point weight and keeping the speed over 200-215 is desirable. A lot of women shoot really long and slow arrows and I think they handicap themselves dramatically by shooting so slow. I also do not like the idea of the heavy point way out in front of the pivot point in the rest as it moves all around if the shooters are nervous and their stabilizer is moving back and forth. The rest loses its ability to control the arrow and get it back in line from a shot flaw the further the point is from the pivot point in the rest. The keys are the same, the lighter the point, the more fletching is required. Indoors however, there is no benefit to shooting a small vane or feather so overkill should be the rule. If you are running a low poundage or slow bow, speed it up by using feathers. I also like four fletch in this equation as I think it is more efficient in correcting mistakes made by the shooter. One of the big problems in indoor setups is people do not make sure they have clearance. Make sure you use spray powder to unsure you 100% clearance. Another reason I use the rest configuration that I do. My typical recommendation is to take three shafts, cut them to 1'-1.5" in front of the rest and shoot the 150 grain points for a week. Then using the weight wrench and add 50 grains to the point and shoot them for another week. Add 50 more and shoot for another week. If you still feel like they are not forgiving or not exactly what you want then try three of them longer in the same process. Personally I don’t think you will like them longer unless you have a flaw in your tuning or form (like face contact with the arrow or string that affects the nock travel), but experimentation is the key. Indoor shooting gives us a lot of feedback on precise accuracy and repeatability. The difference in the point weight will be extremely subtle so take your time.

Below are the 4 steps to tuning that I recommend, to ensure you are not chasing your tail and misdiagnosing problems:
1. Powder Tune--Spray foot powder everything to ensure you have 100% clearance. Spray the rest, the bow and the arrow.

2. Paper Tune-- Paper tells you exactly what is going on with the arrow as it comes out of the bow. I do this at 5-6 yards as that is the distance that arrow seems to be at the apex of the tear and starts to recover after that. I always start paper tuning with at least 4 arrows because I know every arrow is not created equal I do not want to be tuning the bow to a "problem child" but rather to the average. This is much more important as you are shooting arrows on the edge of being weak.

3. Dynamic Spine Tuning: Papertune each arrow to verify they are all reacting the same way. I typically will shoot every arrow in a row on each vane position looking for the "sweet spot" where they all do exactly the same thing. This is the closest thing to "same hole in the Hooter Shooter" that I have come up with to match arrows. Spine testers, floating, or lining the cock vane up on the seam all sound good but do not correlate to same hole like the dynamic spine test done through paper. One thing I know for sure is broadheads will fly opposite of a paper tear so variation in your tears equal broadheads going in various directions. One of the reasons that mechanical broadheads are more accurate is they do not steer like the fixed blades do. The same can be said for a stiff spined shaft versus a weaker shaft or a shaft with light point versus heavy points. They just need treated differently. The light points, stiff shafts and broadhead tipped shafts all need a little more guidance than their counterpart. 
This is also the perfect test to tell if the shafts you are shooting are too weak. If you are getting an excessive amount of variation and you have a different tear for every rotation then you are most likely pushing those arrows to hard and a stiffer shaft will help your accuracy. It is always a good idea to rotate the nocks until they all react the same but if you get too much variation they will still be better being rotated into the same reaction but not same hole accurate. They will also be much more sensitive to changes like different lengths of field points and broadheads if you are right on the edge of too weak.

4. Bare Shaft/Broadhead Tuning: This is the final step of my tuning and isn’t 100% necessary but I believe it is optimal. Shooting a bare shaft and a fletch shaft to the same impact point at 20 yards just allows you to see if the power stroke of the string is indeed driving dead center of the shaft. It will be easier to accomplish with heavier points and softer shafts but you can bare shaft tune the stiffest, most sensitive setups with just a little more tuning knowledge. This will allow the vanes to be as efficient as possible in correcting your mistakes. You may find that the tune looks like a bullet hole through paper but in fact when you shoot the bare shaft down range it impacts to the right of your fletched arrow or in the case of broadheads they hit to the right of the field point. This just simply tells me I have a little left tear left in the bow and I need to make the corrections for a left tear. Maybe left yoke twists, lessen the load on the cable guard (Tilt Tamer is helpful for this), move the rest in towards the riser or even adjust the wheel spacing slightly. The only thing you have to remember is the bare shaft/broadhead tipped shaft will react opposite of the paper tear, so all you have to do is remember the paper tuning guidelines. Using a target point as long as the Broadhead will help make this process more precise because it will affect the reaction of the shaft and how the string loads the arrow. Remember, the steps of tuning start with powder tuning.

This should help you understand some of the thought that goes into how I choose and tune my setups. It comes from 30 years of trying everything there is to try and works very well for me and most everyone I recommend it to. There is no such thing as the perfect arrow for everything. It is a give and take scenario. The reason I love Gold Tip shafts so much is that when I take the time to tune everything into the same arrow hole they do not change their tune. One of the things you will see with a lot of shafts on the market is that they will hold a set when bent. Gold Tip shafts will not do that. When a lot of people refer to "shooting the spine out of an arrow”, they are a lot of times in fact, shooting the straightness out of the shaft. This in turn does change the dynamic spine reaction as it presents the back of the arrow to the string in a slightly different place if it is crooked. You can retune them the same way you can tune a set of shafts to shoot better that are not perfectly straight but it is better scenario that you have a shaft that maintains the tune you spent all your time working on. That's the main reason why you see Gold Tip shafts so popular with today’s top archers and bowhunters. They are "Dynamically" more consistent and more reliable than any other shaft on the market today.


----------



## RCR_III

This has some new tidbits within it, but I've read this offering from Tim several times over the years and I love reading it each time because I have forgotten something from it. 

Thanks for posting.


----------



## Bowpro-295

Interesting


----------



## Mahly

Very good article.
I found the parts about tuning the smaller diameter shafts interesting.


----------



## Reverend

Good info. I never read that article before. Thanks Sonny.
I always did question the wisdom of shooting a fat shaft for 3D...


----------



## SonnyThomas

I found a few things that maybe not new, but informative and some I've already been doing. 

Bare shafting. I couldn't get results, close, but no cigar. About a thumb's width of hitting with fletched arrows, but severe kick. I use a pretty light point weight, 80 gr glue-in. Heavier point and I might have been dead on. But then Tim goes on to say vanes can clean up arrow flight and my fletched arrows are accurate for the distances I shoot. 

And I understand the Tilt Tamer is no longer made....and you really don't hear the hype on these anti devises as when they first came out.... There was this kid in the Martin forums who bought a stainless steel rod and bent it to give the same effects as the Tilt Tamer and TRG something rods. One of Hoyt's Pro Staff shooters bends his factory offset guide rod....


----------



## ron w

this should be made a "sticky" !


----------



## TNMAN

Another respected shooter and bowhunter saying to treat broadhead tuning, paper tuning and bareshaft tuning all the same. A left tear/nock left/right impact is corrected by all the normal left tear cures. Exactly opposite of conventional AT broadhead tuning, a long time sticky, Easton Tuning Guide, and even Slick Trick. Who you going to believe? 

I guess the popular method of trying one way and then the other way might work ok.


----------



## Mahly

LOL! That's exactly where I'm at. I'll shoot, check the results, make a move, check the results, if it wasn't better, just try the other way and see what happens.
I'll always START with a logic behind the move, but for unseen reasons, sometimes going the "wrong way" works better.


----------



## ILOVE3D

Thanks Sonny for the post, there is a lot of good information there to digest and work in a few possible changes and try them and see what works best.


----------



## SonnyThomas

TNMAN said:


> Another respected shooter and bowhunter saying to treat broadhead tuning, paper tuning and bareshaft tuning all the same. A left tear/nock left/right impact is corrected by all the normal left tear cures. Exactly opposite of conventional AT broadhead tuning, a long time sticky, Easton Tuning Guide, and even Slick Trick. Who you going to believe?
> 
> I guess the popular method of trying one way and then the other way might work ok.


Sometimes it's hard reading tuning procedures.... Tim notes bare shaft/broadhead react different down range than what they do through paper, but comes back with "The only thing you have to remember is the bare shaft/broadhead tipped shaft will react opposite of the paper tear, so all you have to do is remember the paper tuning guidelines."


----------



## TNMAN

SonnyThomas said:


> Sometimes it's hard reading tuning procedures.... Tim notes bare shaft/broadhead react different down range than what they do through paper, but comes back with "The only thing you have to remember is the bare shaft/broadhead tipped shaft will react opposite of the paper tear, so all you have to do is remember the paper tuning guidelines."


Thanks, Sonny. But I'm not having any trouble reading or understanding what Tim had to say. Just noting that he is saying the opposite of what most of AT has said for years regarding broadhead tuning.


----------



## SonnyThomas

TNMAN said:


> Thanks, Sonny. But I'm not having any trouble reading or understanding what Tim had to say. Just noting that he is saying the opposite of what most of AT has said for years regarding broadhead tuning.


And then "arrow rocket science."
I've been following the Spine indexing!!!!!!! thread over in General Archery Discussion. ontarget7 starts the post using a Ram Tester. SouthShoreRat comes in with his FLO (frequency testing machine). So it comes to you need both. GRIMWALD comes in with finding the natural bend of the arrow, twanging? I posted of a post where ontarget7 agreed with floating arrows and now he wants to back out of that..... GRIMWALD more or less says you can nock tune and have a very good arrow. ontarget7 asks of how accuracy of others who don't Ram test. Now, he has 5 or 6 arrows in X ring size group from 20 yards. I post a picture what 40 some shots taking out the 10 ring (same size as a X ring). He ignores this. Of the second picture, 3 different fixed broadheads near touching from 40 yards he replies; "Congrats," like he doesn't like what I posted, pictures or questions...

I fletch my arrows the way I want to through advise of a techie at a arrow company. My test, every arrow must hit the X ring of a NFAA 20 yard target from 30 yards. Now, I French tune and then play with the arrow rest or nocking point to see if groups can be tightened. My target arrows are greatly accurate out to the longest distances I shoot in 3D, 40 yards for ASA events and 50 yards and more for club 3Ds. I do the same for my hunting bow. My hunting bow is deadly accurate with any fixed blade broadhead I've used out to my imposed 40 yard max.

So whatever works for you, use it.... I will not use "rocket science."  $300 for a Ram Tester. $500 for FLO set up. $1000+ for a Hooter Shooter... It comes down to this I'll just quit archery....


----------



## ontarget7

Man you are something LOL


----------



## Reverend

Don't quit Sonny! 
I am a chronic tinkerer and equipment junkie. So part of me is intrigued by all the advancements in arrows and testing equipment. But still, the logical part of me thinks back on the pros of old. They didn't have any of this stuff! They simply shot over and over and removed arrows that would not fly along with the others. So what does this tell you? Shoot what you have confidence in. Period. 
Sure you can try new techniques to "super tune" your equipment, but in the end you have to make it work for you. It boils down to confidence. While a spine tester might be a nice piece of equipment, and perhaps even save you time when it comes to identifying problem shafts, you're still going to need to shoot ALL you arrows to weed out the ones that aren't cooperating. I wonder how many pros use a spine tester before they fletch their arrows?


----------



## Mahly

While it may not be "necessary", I don't see a problem with someone finding a way to ease the vetting process.
If it can eliminate the arrows that won't group, great!
If the tech isn't there, I say keep working at it.
I do what I can to cull the bad ones, or at least do what I can to make them as consistent as possible. 
I'll find the stiffer part of the spine, and fletch them all to match.
I'd rather not spend hours/days finding bad arrows, I have better things to work on... Like the guy shooting them.


----------



## SonnyThomas

ontarget7 said:


> Man you are something LOL


You post what you want and I'll post what I want. So far GRIMWALD is as close to the "real trenches" as it comes. 1000s of archers use shop or factory fletched arrows to much their satisfaction. I can not find one archery shop within 70 miles of me that Ram tests arrows, not even a Hooter Shooter.

Update; One has come forward to tell me that from to time he shoots with Tim G. and that Tim now does use a Hooter Shooter.


----------



## redman

Compression test with ez press
is what I do with all my carbon arrows mark the stiff side and fletch them all to match.


----------



## treeman65

After talks with Tim on this same subject I changed to gold tip which I shot x brand for years but was willing to try something new
We had email back and forth about how to setup and chose best arrow for my set up
After that I took his advise and set up some x cutters with the vanes he suggested only thing I did differently was I went a little heavier with point weight 130 gr due to I shoot known distance class
I have shot 4 30 target round since and this is with a new bow also
313. 309. 291. And today a 309. I would say it's working for me


----------



## SonnyThomas

Reverend said:


> Don't quit Sonny!
> I am a chronic tinkerer and equipment junkie. So part of me is intrigued by all the advancements in arrows and testing equipment. But still, the logical part of me thinks back on the pros of old. They didn't have any of this stuff! They simply shot over and over and removed arrows that would not fly along with the others. So what does this tell you? Shoot what you have confidence in. Period.
> Sure you can try new techniques to "super tune" your equipment, but in the end you have to make it work for you. It boils down to confidence. While a spine tester might be a nice piece of equipment, and perhaps even save you time when it comes to identifying problem shafts, you're still going to need to shoot ALL you arrows to weed out the ones that aren't cooperating. I wonder how many pros use a spine tester before they fletch their arrows?





Mahly said:


> While it may not be "necessary", I don't see a problem with someone finding a way to ease the vetting process.
> If it can eliminate the arrows that won't group, great!
> If the tech isn't there, I say keep working at it.
> I do what I can to cull the bad ones, or at least do what I can to make them as consistent as possible.
> I'll find the stiffer part of the spine, and fletch them all to match.
> I'd rather not spend hours/days finding bad arrows, I have better things to work on... Like the guy shooting them.


.
The only thing I advocate is use what works for you. If you deem a $300 Ram Tester will give you the best, then use/buy one. Price too steep, send them out to have them Ram tested. Shouldn't cost much, probably shipping to and from would cost maybe the same for having spine tested. My arrows, I wanted insured to and from. So what for total cost, $25.00? I really don't know, just guessing.

I shoot 3D. Tops is shooting 2 arrows for a double set target lane. I carry 9. How long to nock tune 9 arrows? And we practice how much?


----------



## Mahly

"And we practice how much?"

LOL! For me, not nearly enough!

And I agree 100% whatever works for you, works for you!


----------



## SonnyThomas

And it keeps going on...
Here's Spine indexing!!!!!!!!!! by ontarget7 - long, read through ontarget7, SouthShoreRat and GRIMWALD.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2420209

Here's New Tech Tip from two Pro shooters, Gary Studt and Dan McCarthy. 18 minutes is too long for me, but I got the jest of compression testing. ??? I'd have to ask if this like GRIMWALD, finding the natural bend of the arrow.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2302137

Now, why I have questions, issues. Both pics from 20 yards. One bow, 5 shots through Ram testing and bare shafts. Two bows, my 40+ shots arrows fletched to what I think best for me...You ought to heard me cussing my two bows for that one high and one low right


----------



## montigre

For me it came down to a question of time. I was fortunate enough to have been able to pick up a RAM tester for quite a discount, so when I build a set of arrows, I simply take the few seconds per shaft that is added to the process to spin them out on the RAM. Yes, this produces the exact same result as nock tuning at 50 yards (which is free), but saves me a couple of hours getting a new set of arrows ready for competition. So, for me, the cost of a spine tester is definitely worth the additional time I now have to practice or work on other things.


----------



## Padgett

I started testing arrows back when I was shooting carbon express and carbon tech arrows, for me back then I learned that getting them group tuned to hit well as a group was very important because they simply would not shoot well until I did the work. I perfected my group tuning process with a hooter shooter and it only took me 30 minutes and I could have a half dozen arrows hitting the same hole at 20 yards as bare shafts and to me that wasn't that big a effort to insure that the arrows were good to go.

I also learned that both of these brands had to be stripped down after a couple months of shooting and grouped again because they would change over time and they could be tuned again to hit the same hole but over the lifetime of the shafts they had to be maintained to keep them shooting solid.

After those couple years I got lucky and got my first dozen gold tips ultralight 400's and then a dozen gold tip xxx and then my x-cutters, with these three dozen arrows I continued my group tuning with the hooter shooter. The things that I learned by shooting gold tips have changed the way I look at the differences in the brands, The gold tips are not only the toughest that I have ever used but they have other qualities that I simply love. First off they group tune out of the box as a bare shaft less than one inch as a bare shaft for every dozen I have ever tested personally without seeing a bad shaft. They simply all shoot the one inch or less group. The x-cutters actually shot the same hole right out of the box without needing any nock rotation and in fact they shot the same hole regardless of how I turned the nock. The ultralight 400's and xxx shafts had many shafts that shot the same hole right out of the box and a few that needed a little turn of the nocks to be moved to the hole. Now for the cool part, even after a year of shooting 3d and having many bushings replaced my remaining x-cutter shafts would still hit the same hole as a bare shaft. I had tested them a few times through out the year usually when the feathers needed replaced and not one time did a shaft change, they always hit the same hole just like they did when I took them out of the box.

That third dozen of gold tips will probably be the last dozen I have to buy because my bow shop decided to start giving me my competition arrows from now on and the funny thing is that I planned on having them get me some but they actually survived the season. Two of my remaining arrows have been shot so many times that the labels are gone and right now I have 4 of them left. I had 7 of them after the asa classic but over the winter I have screwed around and found a way to be stupid and break two of them by shooting a wall when working on hinge speed and the third one died when a buddy robin hooded me at the first shoot of this season.


----------



## HOYTFFZY11

Good reads!


----------



## Rick!

Padgett said:


> ...
> 
> After those couple years I got lucky and got my first dozen gold tips ultralight 400's and then a dozen gold tip xxx and then my x-cutters, with these three dozen arrows I continued my group tuning with the hooter shooter. The things that I learned by shooting gold tips have changed the way I look at the differences in the brands, The gold tips are not only the toughest that I have ever used but they have other qualities that I simply love. First off they group tune out of the box as a bare shaft less than one inch as a bare shaft for every dozen I have ever tested personally without seeing a bad shaft. They simply all shoot the one inch or less group. The x-cutters actually shot the same hole right out of the box without needing any nock rotation and in fact they shot the same hole regardless of how I turned the nock. The ultralight 400's and xxx shafts had many shafts that shot the same hole right out of the box and a few that needed a little turn of the nocks to be moved to the hole. Now for the cool part, even after a year of shooting 3d and having many bushings replaced my remaining x-cutter shafts would still hit the same hole as a bare shaft. I had tested them a few times through out the year usually when the feathers needed replaced and not one time did a shaft change, they always hit the same hole just like they did when I took them out of the box


Kinda analogous to golf club shafts. Dynamic Golds used to decent but I'd get my irons spined and FLO'd and one or two would be off and need adjustment. Got a set with the latest KBS Tour shafts, sent them out for the same treatment and all were perfect. And yes, you can feel the difference between "on" and "a bit off".

A quick google search turns up at least eleventy-2 ways to build an inexpensive spine tester. I've got some skateboard bearings, an old dial indicator and some steel stock, just ain't got the time. It's way too easy to call SSA and buy some spined sticks...


----------



## osagebender

tag


----------



## Pete53

after what tips have been posted on this site : i took 6 brand new 2712 aluminum target shafts, cut shafts about an 1 inch and half longer than my drop away target limb driver rest,used 325 grain target tips, used 3 inch feathers and 4 fletched them 75-105 with my bitzenberg arrow fletcher. and to honest these 6 arrows fly very good, i am very impressed, i will use them this way for a week in league and really test the results and if they seem to help i will then have my son try them with his new OK target bow to see if he can pick up a couple more X`s. so for the archer`s who posted these tips here`s A BIG THANK YOU ! Pete53


----------



## swbuckmaster

Pete53
With aluminumn arrows you would be better off finding the nodes and placing the nodes on your rest. Carbon arrows react different.

Sorry to say but you may have messes up your arrows.

the reason you need to find the node is aluminum arrows flex on a lower frequency or larger bend. If you cut those arrows in front of your rest the arrow my push down on the rest causing poor flight or at least blade angle and stiffness will need to be played with more because it could be very unforgiving.

To find the node take the arrow and grab the nock end with left hand and take right hand and grab the middle of the shaft and pull down while the tip is on a table corner. Let go with your right hand. The tip will bounce. This is what will happen to your arrow when shot. It will bounce off your rest. Now move the tip up a few inches on the table and repete. You will find a spot where the arrow doesn't jump. Mark that spot and place it on your rest. That's your node. Very forgiving spot


----------



## ex-wolverine

here is a great article on Static and dynamic spine...When you use a spine tester all your doing is testing static spine has nothing to do with tuning your arrows for dynamic flight except making sure you have a group of arrows that match or closely match spine through out that group...Everyone is missing out on a critical part of arrow tuning if your not dynamic testing them ...The article that Sonny Posted by Tim is as about as simple as you can get and takes no time at all ...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...RYo3Y6JvHzTpVg 




montigre said:


> For me it came down to a question of time. I was fortunate enough to have been able to pick up a RAM tester for quite a discount, so when I build a set of arrows, I simply take the few seconds per shaft that is added to the process to spin them out on the RAM. Yes, this produces the exact same result as nock tuning at 50 yards (which is free), but saves me a couple of hours getting a new set of arrows ready for competition. So, for me, the cost of a spine tester is definitely worth the additional time I now have to practice or work on other things.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Link won't work.....


----------



## ex-wolverine

http://www.arrowtrademagazine.com/articles/july_06/ControllingDynamicArrowSpine-July2006.pdf

Opens in a PDF


----------



## Fury90flier

thanks for shafting and by the way, nice group--- but try it with MY form...lol


----------



## Fury90flier

double tap...


----------



## Mahly

I believe that, to an extent, the dynamic spine testing is going to give minimal results with modern equipment.
With less side to side movement, and less vertical nock travel, you are already going to start getting a stiffer dynamic spine.
We see very often, and it has been proclaimed here, that as long as your stiff enough, your not going to be shooting yourself in the foot.
All he static spine testing helps us get consistent dynamic flight. Provided we use the same tips vanes etc, shot from the same bow. We should get very similar dynamic results.
Sonny, was it you who posted groups with like 4-5 different arrow tip weights all grouping he same?
I think the more important part is getting he arrows all the same and at least stiff enough.
I have been shooting WAY over spined arrows for some time now, and have been getting very good flight.
Matching components, static spine, and even matching the stiff part of the arrows to each other (nock tuning) will have more effect on flight that cutting 1/4" off at a time trying to find the best flight. 
Now, that's not to say dynamic spine is irrelevant, but I think there is a bigger window for error than was once the case (or still is as far as Oly recurve is considered).


----------



## SonnyThomas

Mahly said:


> Sonny, was it you who posted groups with like 4-5 different arrow tip weights all grouping he same?
> I think the more important part is getting he arrows all the same and at least stiff enough.


Yeath (You Got Mail). HTA HT3 *.400 spine *arrow with 80 gr glue-in, my arrow. Arrow is fletched to the blemish line inside the shaft. I'm guessing the same that Tony noted; "I build by orienting on the visual spline inside the arrow." http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2426876&p=1072453481#post1072453481

Why I get bent out of shape over "arrow rocket science." It works for you, use it... If a arrow build is wrong bow tuning should be maybe a bit difficult. Accuracy and grouping should suffer. The more force applied, dynamic spine thing, results would show. THERE was only vertical sight adjustments made during my tests. The Absolute .22 pictures in my other post, shot from my MarXman, no changes to my bow and only vertical sight adjustments made. These were floated and weigh 380 grs, 58 grs heavier than the arrow I use.

Is my bow set up that good to override wrongly fletched to the spine arrows? Are my arrows fletched consistently enough that error to spine is nullified? 

Dave telling of the 60 yard novelty deer target, baseball diameter bull's eye - Same HTA "I don't know what the hell I'm doing" 80 gr point arrows.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2098676&p=1068261235#post1068261235

Experiment/test; 20 yards, longish HTA 47 gr insert with; 85 (132), 100 (147), 125 (172) and 145 (192) gr field points. 192 - 80 = 112 grs difference. Something of 10 shots made per point weight before shooting the same target in the picture. 2nd pic is my 80 gr point arrow and then go left to right.


----------



## ctownshooter

tagged


----------



## montigre

ex-wolverine said:


> here is a great article on Static and dynamic spine...When you use a spine tester all your doing is testing static spine has nothing to do with tuning your arrows for dynamic flight except making sure you have a group of arrows that match or closely match spine through out that group...Everyone is missing out on a critical part of arrow tuning if your not dynamic testing them ...The article that Sonny Posted by Tim is as about as simple as you can get and takes no time at all ...
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...RYo3Y6JvHzTpVg


Tom...Sorry for taking so long to respond--dealing with snow and a bad bout of the flu over the past couple of weeks.....Thanks for sharing that article; it was very informative and appreciated. You are correct that static spine testing is only the tip of the iceberg and that the dynamic spine is a much more influential factor especially when shooting longer distances. 

I should have been clearer in my posting, but provided my example only to state that prior to falling onto that great deal on a RAM, I'd spend hours at the range group tuning my arrows. However after running them through the RAM prior to building, I have been able to hit the range and spend just a fraction of the time getting a set of arrows to group and usually have only 1 or 2 out of a dozen that really "misbehave". 

Testing static spine is by no means the end of the process---the arrows still have to be shot in, but if the static spine is determined and the arrows built in around a consistent framework, then the shooting in time can be significantly reduced. 

~Gail


----------



## ontarget7

montigre said:


> Tom...Sorry for taking so long to respond--dealing with snow and a bad bout of the flu over the past couple of weeks.....Thanks for sharing that article; it was very informative and appreciated. You are correct that static spine testing is only the tip of the iceberg and that the dynamic spine is a much more influential factor especially when shooting longer distances.
> 
> I should have been clearer in my posting, but provided my example only to state that prior to falling onto that great deal on a RAM, I'd spend hours at the range group tuning my arrows. However after running them through the RAM prior to building, I have been able to hit the range and spend just a fraction of the time getting a set of arrows to group and usually have only 1 or 2 out of a dozen that really "misbehave".
> 
> Testing static spine is by no means the end of the process---the arrows still have to be shot in, but if the static spine is determined and the arrows built in around a consistent framework, then the shooting in time can be significantly reduced.
> 
> ~Gail


I completely agree ! Dynamic spine is made easy today with the software programs and between that and the RAM you have a very good chance you will be right where you need to be, when you apply both to your build process.


----------



## ex-wolverine

That's what I thought as I could have swore that you said somewhere else that you shot the arrows in after you checked the batch...As most pros do...Sorry about the mis communication , as I was trying to add your post, 



montigre said:


> Tom...Sorry for taking so long to respond--dealing with snow and a bad bout of the flu over the past couple of weeks.....Thanks for sharing that article; it was very informative and appreciated. You are correct that static spine testing is only the tip of the iceberg and that the dynamic spine is a much more influential factor especially when shooting longer distances.
> 
> I should have been clearer in my posting, but provided my example only to state that prior to falling onto that great deal on a RAM, I'd spend hours at the range group tuning my arrows. However after running them through the RAM prior to building, I have been able to hit the range and spend just a fraction of the time getting a set of arrows to group and usually have only 1 or 2 out of a dozen that really "misbehave".
> 
> Testing static spine is by no means the end of the process---the arrows still have to be shot in, but if the static spine is determined and the arrows built in around a consistent framework, then the shooting in time can be significantly reduced.
> 
> ~Gail


----------



## montigre

ex-wolverine said:


> That's what I thought as I could have swore that you said somewhere else that you shot the arrows in after you checked the batch...As most pros do...Sorry about the mis communication , as I was trying to add your post,


No worries, I was not as clear as I should have been in my post--call it flu head. Anyway, I'm not a pro, just a very enthusiastic, hands on amateur trying to make it to the top of my game before the body gives out..LOL!


----------



## kballer1

Tagged.


----------



## Mike8

Tag


----------



## FS560

Tim Gillingham's comment that the bowstring must hit and drive straight down the arrowshaft is a very very important part of his comments. It is what makes actual arrow spine less important and provides a wide range of dynamic spine matching (tuning).

The arrow acts like an unsupported column that can and will buckle (bend) when an inline force is applied to the end. In a steel frame building, the columns are supported in mid vertical span by intersecting structural members with moment connections (rigid) that help the columns resist excessive bending. Off center loading exists because of the effects of wind and unevenly distributed dead load (fixtures, equipment, and people). All of this must be tuned (designed) together including the stiffness of the column.

When the string hit is straight down the center of the arrow instead of off center, one of the variables is greatly minimized. Even a weaker spined arrow will bend less and function well over a wide range of draw force energy. In different words, a given bow will shoot well with a wide range of arrow spines and the dynamic arrow spine matching range will be very wide. It means that you can shoot a stiffer or weaker shaft with relative impunity. This DOES NOT mean that you can grip the bow differently from shot to shot.

It does mean that off center loading of the arrow applies to both the horizontal and vertical planes and the nock path in the vertical plane is just as important.


----------



## FS560

Sorry, I forgot to stress that indexing is still of critical importance unless you are shooting rebar.


----------



## blackduck889

tag soup


----------



## SonnyThomas

FS560 said:


> Sorry, I forgot to stress that indexing is still of critical importance unless you are shooting rebar.


I've never spine indexed a arrow in my life. I use quality arrows, some .001" and some .0025" for straightness. I've fletched anyway I want and have had outstanding accuracy, Indoor through Field. Some years back after talking with a couple arrow companies I went with fletching to the blemish line inside the shaft. Just recently, trying the new 1/2 dozen German arrows I won, Absolute 22. I couldn't determine the blemish line and floated them in soapy water.

Damned cold, 28 degrees. Bow left in garage, riser like ice. Sighted in quick, 3 or 4 shots, and then shot two 3 shot groups...2nd pic, shot a vane off, laying in the snow. 3rd pic, reshot the same arrow. Finger holding arrow over to show missing vane.
Bow; 55 pounds. Arrow; .350 spine. Point weight; 147 grs.


----------



## bugeaterNE

tagged for arrow setup info.....thanks all


----------



## Alaska at heart

Tagged for future review......thanks.


----------



## Arrowninja

Great info, Thank you!


----------



## blitzkraig

tagged, thanks op


----------



## lvetohunt

Tagged for later

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


----------



## Allen cox

I'm going to have to look in target section more often if this is where there going to hide the good post , thanks for posting.


----------



## DeerCook

Great post/read!


----------



## *SWITCH

Thanks for that info, good stuff, interesting for sure.

I've always found that a new set of correctly spined carbon/ally core arrows with good tolerances almost always group perfect out of the box, any strays are usually obvious. I paper tune (sometimes) and then walk back. Then tiller. If arrows aren't grouping tight out of the box then i'm buying better arrows instead.

I don't normally get strays until I've had a few arrow clashes, and then normally its a component that needs replacing not the shaft.

I use mostly Easton arrows, few other makes have had a few strays regarding weight more than anything.

experimenting with point weight/shaft length is a good idea though I think.


----------



## Kylakebuck

Thank you for this post!


----------



## Verminaters1967

I paper tune my arrows threw live deer just like the indians did :wink:


----------



## ktolbert

Thanks a ton for posting. I'll hang on to this one.


----------



## Tipe

Great tips, what I've been following mostly.
New to X23's here's cutting distance offered to me... what I've been asking elsewhere :thumbs_up


----------



## cbrunson

Tipe said:


> Great tips, what I've been following mostly.
> New to X23's here's cutting distance offered to me... what I've been asking elsewhere :thumbs_up


With stiffer carbon shafts like Gold Tips, you will have better results with the point as close to the rest as possible. Point weight is not much of a factor. Easy to test with the screw in point weights. I shot my first 30x game with XXXs cut to 27-1/2” with 150gr points. (60# and 29-1/2” DL). That’s indoors at 20yds. Never shot them outdoors, although I’ve seen them perform well with points as low as 50gr on K50. courses. 

I’ve shot with Tim a few times and our shooting styles are similar to a degree. (With exception to the tantrums after punching one out in the red)  A lot of what he does is unconventional, as is the way Reo sets up his equipment and his shooting style is also different from most of what you read is the “correct” way. (Also a good friend I’ve shot with many times.). The one recurring theme that holds true for all shooters just getting started, is that user input is the key to finding the best results with any equipment. If your follow through and release execution are not consistent, you will get conflicting results with regards to “forgiveness”. I’ve chased down that rabbit hole many times. One of the most difficult things to understand, (and believe) is the placebo associated with an equipment change, and the long term effectiveness, or lack thereof.


----------



## Fury90flier

"... as close to the rest,,," it doesn't matter if it's stiff or weak. Put the first node on the rest. Define the first node is real simple, just do the plucking test.

Find the edge of a railing, table top, countertop Etc. Hold the Arrow by the nock in one hand and between thumb and index finger somewhere around the front third of the arrow, front quarter or so laying against the edge of table countertop etc. Pluck the arrow in a downward motion against the edge. Do this repeatedly moving the arrow shaft up and down the edge of whatever you choose. The point where the arrow bounces the least is your node.


----------



## cbrunson

Fury90flier said:


> "... as close to the rest,,," it doesn't matter if it's stiff or weak. Put the first node on the rest. Define the first node is real simple, just do the plucking test.
> 
> Find the edge of a railing, table top, countertop Etc. Hold the Arrow by the nock in one hand and between thumb and index finger somewhere around the front third of the arrow, front quarter or so laying against the edge of table countertop etc. Pluck the arrow in a downward motion against the edge. Do this repeatedly moving the arrow shaft up and down the edge of whatever you choose. The point where the arrow bounces the least is your node.


Works great for a recurve when you need to bend the shaft around the riser, but completely unnecessary for a modern compound with even a mediocre tune.


----------



## SonnyThomas

^^^^ True..............


----------



## reddogjack

thanks for sharing


----------



## T3RMNTR

Tagged for reference.
Thanks for the OP and subsequent good info posts.


----------



## ILOVE3D

SonnyThomas said:


> And then "arrow rocket science."
> I've been following the Spine indexing!!!!!!! thread over in General Archery Discussion. ontarget7 starts the post using a Ram Tester. SouthShoreRat comes in with his FLO (frequency testing machine). So it comes to you need both. GRIMWALD comes in with finding the natural bend of the arrow, twanging? I posted of a post where ontarget7 agreed with floating arrows and now he wants to back out of that..... GRIMWALD more or less says you can nock tune and have a very good arrow. ontarget7 asks of how accuracy of others who don't Ram test. Now, he has 5 or 6 arrows in X ring size group from 20 yards. I post a picture what 40 some shots taking out the 10 ring (same size as a X ring). He ignores this. Of the second picture, 3 different fixed broadheads near touching from 40 yards he replies; "Congrats," like he doesn't like what I posted, pictures or questions...
> 
> I fletch my arrows the way I want to through advise of a techie at a arrow company. My test, every arrow must hit the X ring of a NFAA 20 yard target from 30 yards. Now, I French tune and then play with the arrow rest or nocking point to see if groups can be tightened. My target arrows are greatly accurate out to the longest distances I shoot in 3D, 40 yards for ASA events and 50 yards and more for club 3Ds. I do the same for my hunting bow. My hunting bow is deadly accurate with any fixed blade broadhead I've used out to my imposed 40 yard max.
> 
> So whatever works for you, use it.... I will not use "rocket science."  $300 for a Ram Tester. $500 for FLO set up. $1000+ for a Hooter Shooter... It comes down to this I'll just quit archery....


Hey Sonny, interesting I was just watching Tim's youtube videos on tuning and he said 100% sure spine testing didn't always work. He does all the rest, checks for proper clearance then paper tuning, walk back, nock indexing, group testing and with good arrows he can pretty much get his stuff dialed in. Somehow, the videos made it easier to digest.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Well, the rocket science got a little deeper and right over my head. Testing for spine the weight of the indicator stem/probe is taken into consideration and this with the spring removed. Said the spring takes away from true spine reading. Arrow must turn on the edge of the bearings, so a measure 28" to the edge of the bearings.

If just searching for spine we don't need to get so technical. We don't even need the 880 gram weight. We just need enough weight to get the arrow to "bend." Well, got my brother in gear and he built me a spine tester. He went a bit overboard. I had to test just how much the spring effected spine reading...

Two piece 880 gram weight, certified. If I scratch paint....Like I care. $75.00 which includes new indicator and magnet base. 

Both pics, arrow to 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees......

First pic, set the indicator to give +.010" - being a "noted" as minimum spring pressure. Okay, .010" to play with back to the indicator not touching and near 1.00" the other way. 

First pic, indicator set, needle at .008". Needle near straight up. Turning the face to zero is a pain. Those dang pointers just drag to much. .008" (0) at all four points. 
Second pic, indicator load pressure of .306". Left needle as is - about 4:30. .306" (0) at all four points.

With the full 880 gram weight the Deer Crossing Archery arrow had .005" travel. (.285" to 290"). I'd say that was pretty good. The only way to be proven/made good is to shoot it.


----------



## Spd

Thanks for all your work in the info stated in the thread!


----------



## korelick

Thanks for posting!


----------



## bgriffin

Good reads and information. Thanks to all.


----------



## reddogjack

Hi,

doing some research, came on this thread again.

thought it was worth bring ttt again


----------

