# Wisconsin Bowhunters,just say NO!!!



## rutnstrut

More crossgun propaganda,if you are going to the spring meetings tonight,JUST SAY NO. Better yet say HELL NO,the following is the garbage put out by the crossgun lovers. I want to say I have no problems with crossbows for the elderly/disabled as it is now.


For those going to the Conservation Congress spring hearings tomorrow night, you might find that there will be a floor resolution voted on in your county that hopes to expand crossbow usage in the archery deer season for everbody. The American Crossbow Federation had a booth at the deer and Turkey expo and was handing out the document below which includes a crossbow resolution which would make crossbow legal for every person. You may want to use your own personal network of friends to get the word out and have your bowhunting friends attend the spring hearing on this issue and question 86 which seeks to lower the crossbow age. Below is the info the crossbow federation was handing out. 

------------------------------------- Dear Crossbow Enthusiast: 

The Wisconsin Crossbow Federation is a newly formed associate member of the American Crossbow Federation representing the interests of crossbow owners in Wisconsin. When you paid your fees to become a member of the American Crossbow Federation, you automatically became a member of the Wisconsin Crossbow Federation. There is no additional cost to you. 


The Conservation Congress Spring hearings are coming up on April 12th. Please attend jf you can because there is a resolution (question 86) to Lower the age one can use a crossbow during the archery deer season to 55. 1 expect the Wisconsin Bowhunters will oppose it so we need to get out the vote in support. For bow hunters who may not think this is a big issue, consider that at age 39 vertical bow hunters begin to drop out of archery principally because of physical issues. Allowing archers to continue with crossbows keeps us in the game. 

The Conservation Congress Spring hearings are a great time to submit your own proposals. I would like to see pro-crossbow proposals being submitted throughout the state. A sample proposal is provided below: 

Title: A request that Crossbows be allowed for everyone, without regard to age or disability, during the archery season. 

The problem: Many people who are not over 65 and who do not have a qualifying disability would like to use crossbows during the archery season. More and more people are purchasing crossbows and wonder why they are not allowed to use them to hunt 

Where as: There is very 1ittle difference in performance between crossbows and compound bows. Crossbow hunter success rates are the same as compound bow hunter success rates in those states where crossbows are allowed. If compound bows are allowed why not crossbows? 

Where as: We feel crossbow hunters should have an equal opportunity to the recreational resources as other consumer groups, crossbows. should be permitted for everyone during the archery season. 

Where as: Many people who have back problems, muscle and tendon injuries, or nerve problems caused by injury or disease would not be eligible under the current handicap rules. Their exclusion from recreational opportunities in this state is not fair. 

Where as: Crossbows are another management tool available to the DNR and would provide additional license revenue, the state will find crossbows to be beneficial to the overall recreational plan and management programs as shown by the example of other states. 

Where as: The cost and management time spent sorting through medical disability claims is costing the DNR money which would be better spent protection the resource. Eliminating the handicap restriction would be beneficial. 


Be it resolved, that the Conservation Congress, at its annual meeting, recommend to the DNR executive board that they ask the legislators to change the law to allow crossbows during the archery season. 

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The Wisconsin


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## HNTR2506

You guys kill me.What is going to happen if someone uses a crosssbow?Are the deer going to magicaly fall down dead?Please tell me whats going to happen?


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## Buschwacked

I have no problem if they pass this. 
I believe im better off with my compound than anyone with a crossbow so i wont be using one. But, I have an older gentleman that i hunt with that cannot pull a compound bow back and using a crossbow keeps gives him the opportunity to still hunt with us. He's a great guy thats lots of fun to be around so im glad he has this opportunity. 
I may be in the minority here but thats just my opinion.


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## rutnstrut

Buschwacked said:


> I have no problem if they pass this.
> I believe im better off with my compound than anyone with a crossbow so i wont be using one. But, I have an older gentleman that i hunt with that cannot pull a compound bow back and using a crossbow keeps gives him the opportunity to still hunt with us. He's a great guy thats lots of fun to be around so im glad he has this opportunity.
> I may be in the minority here but thats just my opinion.


There are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. The only reason most want crossguns for all is that they are easier.


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## erictski

rutnstrut said:


> there are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. The only reason most want crossguns for all is that they are easier.



+1.


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## pvbooner

I would hate for anyone to attempt to pass a law that may help recruit more people to the outdoors. If you haven't noticed we are a dying breed and need to stick together. I my opinion anything that is safe and can ethically harvest an animal go for it. If we continue to disagree and argue among ourselves because someone has a slightly different view on hunting than you or I it won't be long and none of us will be hunting. And I will go ahead and answer the question, no I don't own a "crossgun" and don't even live in the same state just felt it needed to be said. ukey:


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## rutnstrut

pvbooner said:


> I would hate for anyone to attempt to pass a law that may help recruit more people to the outdoors. If you haven't noticed we are a dying breed and need to stick together. I my opinion anything that is safe and can ethically harvest an animal go for it. If we continue to disagree and argue among ourselves because someone has a slightly different view on hunting than you or I it won't be long and none of us will be hunting. And I will go ahead and answer the question, no I don't own a "crossgun" and don't even live in the same state just felt it needed to be said. ukey:


Actually I don't think we need more hunters added this way,if you want it lobby for it in YOUR state.


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## grizzl

I've fought this battle by ID'ing the XBow Manufactureres and subsidiary corporations and ALL the PRODUCTS they Produce. I talk it up at shoots and with clubs..

*If you are truely offended by these companies pushing their wares into the Archery Only Season..

BOYCOTT buying their products..*

just lookup the company registerd agent for your state

http://www.residentagentinfo.com/

Look at the officers and holding company and google thier products.

Make a list and BOYCOTT ALL PRODUCTS.

Then SPREAD THE WORD...Thats all you can do..deprive them of profits!


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## huntin_addict

pvbooner said:


> I would hate for anyone to attempt to pass a law that may help recruit more people to the outdoors. If you haven't noticed we are a dying breed and need to stick together. I my opinion anything that is safe and can ethically harvest an animal go for it. If we continue to disagree and argue among ourselves because someone has a slightly different view on hunting than you or I it won't be long and none of us will be hunting. And I will go ahead and answer the question, no I don't own a "crossgun" and don't even live in the same state just felt it needed to be said. ukey:


I agree 100%, first let's ban x-bows, then let's ban the recurves, next muzzleloaders, shotguns, compounds, and finally let's just ban it all.....yep, way to show solidarity folks.


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## rutnstrut

huntin_addict said:


> I agree 100%, first let's ban x-bows, then let's ban the recurves, next muzzleloaders, shotguns, compounds, and finally let's just ban it all.....yep, way to show solidarity folks.


First of all you are not from Wi so don't worry about it. Second I NEVER said to ban crossguns.


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## BuckRubnMI

rutnstrut said:


> Actually I don't think we need more hunters added this way,if you want it lobby for it in YOUR state.


I'm sure many of the traditional archers felt the same way when the compound bow was introduced to the public years ago and probably for the same reasons... Have we left a negative impact to the resource after all these years? Nope. Will crossbows? Nope.


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## granny

if they make x-bows legal who says they will not make gun season legal for all of bow season ? Where will it stop ?
we have laws for people to hunt with x-bows if they can't with a B&A.
For the other people that can't pull 30 pounds ( min. poundage in MN)
it might not be safe for them to be alone in the woods.
Archery is a sport & like other sports, like football, baseball, basketball & others.....some people just are not cut out for it. So don't change the rules because somebody does not want to play by the rules or play fair......


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## bowhuntermn

What makes one method of hunting better over another? If it's legal and helps introduce more people into hunting, then let it happen pure and simple.

Most "hunters" evolve. You go from using begged/borrowed equipment shooting what ever comes your way to shooting the biggest/best money can buy to eventually hunting for the pure joy of it whether or not you even take an animal.

Anything which will bring more people into the sport the better. 

Let me ask you this. Would you rather have someone who can take an animal quickly and humanely with a crossbow out there or someone who just flings and arrow in hopes they hit something? If someone wants to use a crossbow, what's the deal? Doesn't everyone who uses a crossbow shoot B&C, P&Y deer every other day?

The facts are that the "hunting population" as a whole are dwindling big time. We need everyone we can get and by gosh I don't care what you use as long as it's legal and your goal is a quick and humane kill with respect to the animal you are hunting.


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## Hubba

I always love how the guys who claim that the crossbow makes it easier are all shooting the latest and greatest compound bows decked out with all the bells and whistles to make it easier for them........


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## rjharcher

I am not understanding what the OP has against crossbows. The only thing easier about using them is that they are held at full draw with a trigger mechanism and you could possibly be using a aid to help draw the bow. They still use Bolts which are short arrows and have to use broadheads to kill the same as arrows out of compound or traditional. The distance you can effectively shoot a crossbow is not anymore then a bow. I know hunters who routeinly shoot their bows out to 100 yards at game. Crossbow efective range is essentially the same as bows. I am not jumping the OP's case just curious why the hatered toward another means of hunting. Yes in Alaska crossbow are legal in any regular season for any game animal and can be used by any indivudual.


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## JimPic

Last year,Pa. made x-bows legal during the archery seasons. People made a huge stink about it and so far there have been no negative aspects of x-bows during archery. BTW,I shoot traditional bows and really have no problems with them:wink:


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## bowhuntermn

granny said:


> if they make x-bows legal who says they will not make gun season legal for all of bow season ? Where will it stop ?
> we have laws for people to hunt with x-bows if they can't with a B&A.
> For the other people that can't pull 30 pounds ( min. poundage in MN)
> it might not be safe for them to be alone in the woods.
> Archery is a sport & like other sports, like football, baseball, basketball & others.....some people just are not cut out for it. So don't change the rules because somebody does not want to play by the rules or play fair......


Seriously, so the "rules" are good as long as they reflect your wishes? Whether or not you want it, crossbows will be legal in MN for all of bow season within 5 years max. And I'm all for bring it on, let's get more people into the "sport" as you call it.

Let's take another approach and say, why should you be able to hunt with a "compound" and not a self made stick bow? Compounds are for the folks without the discipline and know how to shoot a stick bow. Why should they be able to hunt? 

I'm curious as to what you consider the "rules" to be?


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## pvbooner

If our numbers continue to decline it will be a matter of time before we are not considered a viable way to control the population which I hate to say is the only way that a large section of the population sees hunting as.


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## BuckRubnMI

granny said:


> if they make x-bows legal who says they will not make gun season legal for all of bow season ? Where will it stop ?
> we have laws for people to hunt with x-bows if they can't with a B&A.
> For the other people that can't pull 30 pounds ( min. poundage in MN)
> it might not be safe for them to be alone in the woods.
> Archery is a sport & like other sports, like football, baseball, basketball & others.....some people just are not cut out for it. So don't change the rules because somebody does not want to play by the rules or play fair......


LOL! Does Minnesota have a season set aside strictly for x-bows? If not, how would you feel if they cut the archery season in half to create a season only for x-bows? Only seems fair :dontknow:


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## rutnstrut

For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case. Kind of interesting that most of the pro crossgunners weighing in on this are NOT from Wi or the area.


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## jlh42581

As a pa guy whos completely against it(we got them in 09) let me state a few things

1: the advantage is you dont have to draw in the presence of game
2: disadvantage... theyre pretty heavy
3: advantage - locked and loaded for immediate shot
4: most guys put a scope on them(you can do that with a bow too)
5: you still have to know what youre doing, archery range is archery range

I really didnt wanna see it in pa either, to me its not archery. Guess what though... I didnt see a single guy and i hunted 180+ hours on PUBLIC land last season. NOT ONE PERSON... not worth getting too upset over.


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## bowhuntermn

rutnstrut said:


> For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case.


They are "easier" to shoot with consistency versus other bow types (compounds, recurve, longbow) with respect to drawing them back and the holding weight. The person still needs to place the shot where needed. Again, the ultimate goal of the current "special permits" available to use a crossbow, is to make hunting open to everyone as much as possible.

If you are afraid of all the "crossbow" hunters shooting "your deer", I don't quite understand that. What about all the "gun hunters" shooting your deer? We are all "hunters" regardless of the choice of weapon. And to be honest, if someone is going to spend 30 minutes right before Archery season practicing, I would rather they use a crossbow than any other type if it's legal. Due to the hopeful reduction of wounding an animal if nothing else.


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## BuckRubnMI

rutnstrut said:


> For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case. Kind of interesting that most of the pro crossgunners weighing in on this are NOT from Wi or the area.


There is definitely advantages comparing a x-bow to a compound bow when it comes to shooting abilities, capabilities, and limitations. To me they are easier to shoot... but I don't think there will be a negative impact on the resource and data from other states has helped conclude that. Frankly thats all that matters to me after putting emotions aside.


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## fxdwgkd

Hubba said:


> I always love how the guys who claim that the crossbow makes it easier are all shooting the latest and greatest compound bows decked out with all the bells and whistles to make it easier for them........


I think it has to do with practice time. It takes less effort to shoot a croosbow. In that I mean you can basically pick it up and start hunting with it. People feel that there will be more inexperienced hunters wounding animals. It is much harder to place an arrow/bolt on target at 30 or 50 yards than a bullet. I think that is where a lot of the feelings about not allowing them come from.


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## davejohnson2

i guess im at a point where i just dont care. if someone wants to use a crossbow, who cares? i hunt to please myself. i hunt with a bow b/c i think it is more of a challenge and am satisfied with my kill. even if others may have it "easier" as some say, i still like the challenge of a bow. maybe the crosbow hunters find it satisfying to shoot one with a cross bow? who am i to tell them they cant enjoy themselves? different strokes for different folks, i use a compound because i WANT to and i dont use a crossbow because i dont WANT to, simple as that, not that i hate them, they just WANT to use a crossbow. and i would support any crossbow hunter just as much as a compound hunter. 

it mostly sounds like people are scared "their" deer are going to be killed by crossbow hunters, well, ou know what? hunt harder then!


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## Hoyt Havoc

It's my Wisconsinite opinion that a x-bow has no place in our archery season beyond it's current leagality....that is for the handi capped and those 65 and older. There's a huge difference in the moments before the shot between the 2 by having to draw the bow undetected. Plus I think there'd be more wounded deer because people think a x-bow has more energy than they really do. Those shorter bolts loose energy faster and guys think they can shoot further with them to. But if it does pass I guess I won't ridicule someone using one as long as they know its/thier limits. No vote here.


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## asa_low12

I don't really like crossbows because most of the time the people shooting them don't know jack about bows and broadheads and won't do any kind of tuning or anything and maybe have one arrow out of 4 that is lined up with their xbow and end up wounding a lot of deer. But at the same time that also happens A LOT with compound bows too. I don't see how so many people can be so hard against another hunter for using a crossbow. 

I wish somebody would kill a new world record with a crossbow in front of a bunch of beagles while smoking a cigarette in their work clothes just to read peoples reactions. It would be priceless.


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## jlh42581

Lol


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## blueglide1

bowhuntermn said:


> They are "easier" to shoot with consistency versus other bow types (compounds, recurve, longbow) with respect to drawing them back and the holding weight. The person still needs to place the shot where needed. Again, the ultimate goal of the current "special permits" available to use a crossbow, is to make hunting open to everyone as much as possible.
> 
> If you are afraid of all the "crossbow" hunters shooting "your deer", I don't quite understand that. What about all the "gun hunters" shooting your deer? We are all "hunters" regardless of the choice of weapon. And to be honest, if someone is going to spend 30 minutes right before Archery season practicing, I would rather they use a crossbow than any other type if it's legal. Due to the hopeful reduction of wounding an animal if nothing else.


As far as accuracy goes,I warched the crossbow class at the Indoor Vegas shoot.I watches as those guys couldnt hit a bull in the but with consistancy.The compund shooters far excelled as far as scores goes.I was expecting to see these guys shoot arrow after arrow in the same hole.Boy was I surprised.They had the most alien target model crossbows.They looked like Anshcutz gun company designed them.The range on a crossbow is alot shorter.Those bolts are not heavy enought to carry much accuracy past even 40yds IMO.I think the guys that would buy them to try would go back to their vertical bows after finding out the grass isnt greener on the crossbow side.Just my 2 cents.


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## XForce6

Hunt with what you want to hunt with just get outdoors and hunt. Like pvbooner said we are a dying breed.


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## Duke_II

Late to the party. Quite a few states have already made the leap to X-bow legal over the past few years. My current state decades ago. 

Take advantage of your late status and learn from those who have been here before you. We learned that you're getting your panties in a wad for no good reason. Stop crying that the sky is falling and welcome more people to the woods. Someone JUST LIKE YOU is on here every year talking about how easy it is and how the wounding rates will sky rocket and "x-gunners" will "be the end of our sport as we know it." 

Then their state legalizes crossbows and it does not happen. Just admit you're afraid someone will be fighting you for your hunting spot or you'll have to compete. Greed is the only thing you have on your side, yet the only thing you won't admit.


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## G3's

Hoyt Havoc said:


> It's my Wisconsinite opinion that a x-bow has no place in our archery season beyond it's current leagality....that is for the handi capped and those 65 and older. There's a huge difference in the moments before the shot between the 2 by having to draw the bow undetected. Plus I think there'd be more wounded deer because people think a x-bow has more energy than they really do. Those shorter bolts loose energy faster and guys think they can shoot further with them to. But if it does pass I guess I won't ridicule someone using one as long as they know its/thier limits. No vote here.


Piss poor arguments man, bottom line is you had no clue as to what your bow would do when you first picked it up....so did you learn its limitations before taking it to the field? I guess just because someone shoots a cross bow it means they are somehow less educated and less apt to learn their weapon than say you or I with our traditional compound bow. Come on people, it is time for you to stop being so damn selfish and let hunters enjoy how they choose to spend their time on stand....they still have to figure out how to get within 30-40 yards of the animal and still need to make a clean shot just like you or I. Cross bows are not the end all to archery hunting, it is simply another tool to allow people to enjoy the outdoors and the time spent there. As far as the "worry about your state attitude" get a grip, you are a very small cog in the state wheel in Wisconsin....you pay taxes just like the guy that wants to use a crossbow on his land to hunt deer that use his land for a home....that attitude is archaic and self serving...try getting over yourself


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## Ronbo 316

Hunter -vs- hunter

Usefull idiots............PETA and those like them just love you clowns......


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## Ronbo 316

*Cannibals and Useful Idiots* 

The following is real, and it’s here now. Joe Hunter goes to a cocktail party, nothing fancy, just a holiday gathering in Anytown, USA. A conversation begins with Bob Peta, it goes something like this. 

*Bob Peta:* Say Joe, didn’t you go deer hunting this year?

*Joe Hunter:* Sure did Bob. 

*Bob:* Man, that’s great, did you get one? 

*Joe:* Yep, I sure did, a nice six pointer. 

*Bob:* Hey, that’s great. Say listen Joe, you’re a true hunter, a “real” hunter are you not? 

*Joe:* I sure am. 

*Bob:* Say, I hear tell of a kind of hunting where people can go kill animals in fenced areas. You’ve never done that, have you? 

*Joe:* No, no I haven’t. 

*Bob:* Well, I wouldn’t call that real hunting, would you Joe? 

*Joe:* Well, that’s not the way I hunt. 

*Bob:* I know Joe, but there are people who hunt in fenced areas. I don’t think that’s really hunting, do you Joe? 

*Joe:* well, uh, I guess not. 

*Bob:* Great. Say, listen Joe, a group of us concerned “real” hunters are trying to get that method of hunting done away with. We feel it is unethical, will you help us? 

*Joe:* Sure, because that is not the way I hunt, and I’m a real hunter. 

*Bob:* Thanks Joe. Here is what we need you to do. As a real hunter the big boys in Congress and the Senate will listen to you. They know that any “real” hunter only hunts the way you do, and that’s the only real hunting there is. What we need you to do is get out there and get petitions signed, people will sign them because you are a real hunter, and they know that only your way of hunting is the “real” way. 

So Joe diligently goes after the goal, to ban, and outlaw any kind of hunting that Bob suggest is not real hunting. He gathers up signatures, petitions courts, and makes meetings. He is really cleaning up this unethical way of hunting, he’s got a lot of support. He is gathering “real” hunters from all over, and finally, after much hard work, they get a legal way of hunting banned. 

*Bob:* Joe, you did great and we sure appreciate your hard work, but let me tell you what I heard. There is another type of hunting that we think is not right. Could you help us again?

*Joe:* Well I guess so Bob. I don’t hunt like that, so it’s not real hunting anyway. How can I help? 

It’s the same old story. It’s odd how Bob Peta keeps adding to the list of what “real” hunting is. However, Joe goes at it hard and heavy, and in the end, he helps get that type of hunting banned. Bob and his friends are happy. Joe is a “real” hunter, and these other guy’s aren’t, because the way they hunt is different from Joe, and Joe does not like that way of hunting. So what’s the harm in getting rid of that type of hunting. Joe is a “real” hunter after all, not like those other guys. He even goes to sportsmen’s organizations and recruits from within, it’s easy because they are all “real” hunters too. 
Time passes, and more and more legal ways of hunting are banned. Bob and his friends are real happy with Joe, he’s been a real help. So after all the unethical ways of hunting are gone, Bob and his friends decide that it is time to get Joe’s way of hunting banned, the final chapter. 

*Joe:* Bob, hey buddy, this is Joe. I know I helped you get rid of all those other forms of legal hunting, but now there is a move to get rid of the way I hunt. 

*Bob:* Well Joe, I know. My friends and I are spearheading that movement. 

*Joe:* But Bob, I thought you liked the way I hunt, and it was OK for me to do that type of hunting? 

*Bob:* Well Joe, no, any and all types of hunting are bad, the poor defenseless animals never have a chance, and we dislike, actually we hate hunters. 

*Joe:* But I thought the way I hunted was “real” hunting to you? 

*Bob:* Joe, it was all real hunting, but we at PETA and HSUS hate you. Thanks for all your help, we greatly appreciate it. 

You see, what Joe became was a “Cannibal”, a"Useful Idiot” to the anti-hunters at HSUS and PETA . They don’t give a rats backside how you hunt, what you hunt, or where you hunt, they just want all hunting done away with. The sad thing is that they use hunters against hunters for their causes. If you do not support any and all forms of legal hunting, or voice any decent about the way someone else legally hunts, you my friend are a “Cannibal”, and a very “Useful Idiot” to the enemy. Think twice the next time you mouth off against another hunter’s methods, they could be coming after you next. 

Written by: John Wasmuth


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## Muddy41

MN passed a law last year that allows crossbows to be used during the gun season. I hunted in several parts of central and soutern MN and never once seen a crossbow out there. 

I have no problem with legalizing crossbows. TO me as long as wildlife is taken legally then let's all have fun doing what we love to do and that is being outdoors and filling our freezers full of meet.


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## tlaw

What people outside of Wisconsin don't understand is that there are already people who are upset with the archery kills and archery buck kills in the state and gun hunters are calling for a shorter season. Now you throw in another bunch of people who wouldn't be out there otherwise because of the crossbows and the added harvest and bow hunters could lose a significant amount of our season due to the sentiment of gun hunters. So maybe we recruit a few more people but the actual bow hunters who are staying in the spirit of the season are going to lose out in the end.

Wisconsin is the number one state in the nation for P&Y entries but it also has the highest amount of bow hunters in the country. Finding a spot to hunt is hard enough, hunting on public land is just about a joke and this ain't going to make it any better. 

I'll start going to everyone else's state and listen to them piss and moan when I lease their land shoot their big bucks. The same people who are saying people are nuts about being upset about crossbows are also the same people cry about out of staters.


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## brian g

Ohio allows xbows and i see no problem with it. I had one years ago but found i was more accurate with a compound. My only argument against them is people using the excuse they dont have time to practice. If you love the sport of bowhunting you can find time to practice.


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## zyxw

huntin_addict said:


> I agree 100%, first let's ban x-bows, then let's ban the recurves, next muzzleloaders, shotguns, compounds, and finally let's just ban it all.....yep, way to show solidarity folks.


Nope. Lets just ban crossbows.


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## IBM

*Crossbows*

I say hell no to crossbows!


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## kzoohunter

Hubba said:


> I always love how the guys who claim that the crossbow makes it easier are all shooting the latest and greatest compound bows decked out with all the bells and whistles to make it easier for them........


I am not sure how this is the same?? Let's see ..crossbows are already cocked(a bow has to be drawn while the game is close by) ...A cross bow has a rifle scope( bows usually have peep and sight you must line up.) cross bows don't have to held back until everything lines up you just shoot it like a gun.( a 70 pound bow must be held back ,which will eventually become very difficult to do) YEAH so all the bells and whistles don't hold a hair on a crossbow. In my state of michigan they passed this law last year to allow crossbows(fine...) If someone "needs" to shoot one I think it is great. My HUGE PROBLEM is that there is a law in place that states "no device shall be used to hold a "bowstring" at full draw i.e drawloc system etc.") Now in my mind that automomatically makes a crossbow illegal in Michigan. I called our DNR and they said they will not be changing this law. If they would just have changed this law to begin with the crossbow would never need to be legal. I know that if i couldnt draw a bow back and there is something out there to extend my bowhunting why is it illegal??


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## Cwilder

I am all for getting more people into the sport of hunting. Even if they end up using a x-bow. I hope more states paas that x-bows are allowed durning regular bow season that way more youth and other's get involved 

By the way MD just passed it state wide this year. Others need to jump on board and do the same


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## rutnstrut

Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


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## jumpin jim

So another thread to bash Crossbows? Take a look at the last three letters in crossbow. We have allowed them in MI. and I still killed four Deer, whats the problem? You Guy's who are against using them are Shallow Minded, and do nothing to help Hunting. I also shoot a Drenalin, not a crossbow. Get out of the stoneage, its a bow turned sideways, Big Deal. How about allowing crossbows and disallow Guns? How would that tickle ya? Get with the times. Tags are Tags, if you fill em your promoting good conservation.


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## Cwilder

Hey dude just quit hunting now and join PETA. Man chill out it's another way for people to get into the woods and you are bashing it down. If it is not your cup of tea then don't drink it. But don't try a ruin it for others who might benifit from it. 

What are you affraid that some gun hunter might pick up and x-bow and kill a bigger deer then you


----------



## BuckRubnMI

tlaw said:


> What people outside of Wisconsin don't understand is that there are already people who are upset with the archery kills and archery buck kills in the state and gun hunters are calling for a shorter season. Now you throw in another bunch of people who wouldn't be out there otherwise because of the crossbows and the added harvest and bow hunters could lose a significant amount of our season due to the sentiment of gun hunters. So maybe we recruit a few more people but the actual bow hunters who are staying in the spirit of the season are going to lose out in the end.
> 
> Wisconsin is the number one state in the nation for P&Y entries but it also has the highest amount of bow hunters in the country. Finding a spot to hunt is hard enough, hunting on public land is just about a joke and this ain't going to make it any better.
> 
> I'll start going to everyone else's state and listen to them piss and moan when I lease their land shoot their big bucks. The same people who are saying people are nuts about being upset about crossbows are also the same people cry about out of staters.


Well make sure you do Wisconsin hunters a favor then and not introduce anybody to hunting, especially hunting with a bow, from here on out. Sounds like it would be too detrimental to the "spirit of the season" there in Wisconsin. 

I hunt in the state of Michigan where there are many hunters. Most of my hunting is done on highly pressured state land. Yeah it can be frustrating at times and the thought of sharing the woods with less hunters and how pleasant it would be has crossed my mind more than once. It's a bit hypocritical of me though because in one hand I wouldn't mind seeing less hunters in the woods but in the other hand will do anything possible to introduce anyone to the world of hunting. Doesn't make sense does it? I have concluded that hunter recruitment and growing this sport into the future is more important than my own selfish reasons and agendas so I don''t let it get to me as much anymore and just try to enjoy the hunt.

There is a huge issue now-a-days in the hunting world called sense of entitlement. Gun hunters feeling like all the bow hunters shoot 'their' deer. Hating the neighbor because he shot 'your' buck. Bow hunters hating x-bow hunters because 'they' are infringing on 'their' season. I could go on and on....

We are our own worst enemies as of late and that worries me a lot more than PETA and other anti-hunting groups.


----------



## TommyBoy

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


bring 'em on. I learned how to share in Kindergarten.
:shade:


----------



## jumpin jim

:darkbeer:


----------



## bowhuntermn

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


You seriously need to go and "discover" what hunting is about since apparently anyone who doesn't share your views shouldn't be out in the woods. Just what makes a "hunter" in your eyes as I'm curious for your thoughts. Apparently, if someone uses a "crossbow" they are not a hunter. What about someone who shoots one with a gun? Should they be banned as well? Get over it. If "You" are the future of hunting, well it will be short lived.


----------



## BuckRubnMI

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


If you anti full inclusion x-bow guys could bring something to the table other than emotions, maybe guys like me would find your reasonings more credible.


----------



## jacobh

jlh42581 said:


> As a pa guy whos completely against it(we got them in 09) let me state a few things
> 
> 1: the advantage is you dont have to draw in the presence of game
> 2: disadvantage... theyre pretty heavy
> 3: advantage - locked and loaded for immediate shot
> 4: most guys put a scope on them(you can do that with a bow too)
> 5: you still have to know what youre doing, archery range is archery range
> 
> I really didnt wanna see it in pa either, to me its not archery. Guess what though... I didnt see a single guy and i hunted 180+ hours on PUBLIC land last season. NOT ONE PERSON... not worth getting too upset over.


I 2nd this comment. I was dead set against them. They are easier the only part that bothers me is a alot of the guys I taalk to that hunt with them come out and say they use them because they dont have to practice you just point and shoot. They said they have no problem taking 70 yd shots which also bothers me. this is just my opinion


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> There are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. The only reason most want crossguns for all is that they are easier.


LOL.... says the man that shots a ROSS CARDIAC SD/ BLACKED OUT ALIEN X THE SWEETEST BOW EVER. BSTINGER,LIMBDRIVER,MAGNUS BROADHEADS
BLACKHAWK VAPOR PRO/GT PRO HUNTERS.

Pretty little glass house that you live in..


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case. Kind of interesting that most of the pro crossgunners weighing in on this are NOT from Wi or the area.



Another LOL.

They are used in ARCHERY seasons for the elderly and the physically challenged for two reasons.

1) They are a form of archery.

2) the people using them are assisted ONLY in drawIng them back to lock in place.

After that there is very, very little difference.

In fact the disadavantages of crossBOWs (not crossGUNS) seem to me to outweight the advantages.

Yes, I hunt with one.


----------



## Duke_II

willie said:


> LOL.... says the man that shots a ROSS CARDIAC SD/ BLACKED OUT ALIEN X THE SWEETEST BOW EVER. BSTINGER,LIMBDRIVER,MAGNUS BROADHEADS
> BLACKHAWK VAPOR PRO/GT PRO HUNTERS.
> 
> Pretty little glass house that you live in..


it's a little known fact that the native americans used Limb Driven, drop-away rests on their bows and shot carbon arrows. history has conveniently re-written that fact


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


First off... you posted this in a WORLD WIDE forum and then expect only people from Wisconsin to chime in? Is that dim witted or what?

No oneis "forcing anything on anyone. What will pass, will pass.

BTW - Why does Wisconsin have an over 65 age for crossbws? Is it to retain senior bowhtuners that might give up? If so then they are 10 or more years too late. Every state that records bowhunter ages shows a remarked decline in bowhunter starting at age 50-55.

Wisconsin sees that and wants to retain those hunters that are being lost at age 55.

You and others are standing in the way.

Get out of the way and let your paid DNR do it's job.


----------



## willie

Duke_II said:


> it's a little known fact that the native americans used Limb Driven, drop-away rests on their bows and shot carbon arrows. history has conveniently re-written that fact


LOL... It has often been said that if the Indians had compounds then we would all be speaking Apache now.. :wink:


----------



## Skeptic

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


If you don't want other opinions then maybe post it in YOUR states forum:doh:.....you posted in on the catch all/national forum. You're gonna get opinions from everywhere! I'd like to see them as a viable option in every state. I doubt I'd ever use one BUT I do know a few guys that gave up archery do to injuries that would possibly get back out there from time to time.


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## willie

All of the states which have studied their participation data show that vertical bowhunter participation peaks between the ages of 39 to 44. This peak is followed by a straight line decrease in participation through age 65+. Wildlife experts attribute this decline to time constraints. As raising a family becomes more complex, vertical bowhunters find less time to devote to practice. In later years, physical limitations become the primary reason for quitting the sport. 

Wisconsin's own data supports this trend (see chart below). A steady decline in participation around the age of 45 is followed by a spike in participation around the age of 65, coincidentally, the age when Wisconsin hunters may use a crossbow. It is no stretch to conclude such a dramatic percentage change in participation is due to the use of crossbows.











The data from states which allow crossbows during archery season shows a much different trend (see Georgia charts below). The typical decline in participation around age 40 recovers between the ages of 50 to 60, indicating at the very least that the vertical bow hunters return to the woods using a crossbow.









Age Structure of 2003-2004 Georgia Vertical Bowhunters









Age Structure of 2003-2004 Georgia Crossbow Hunters 

rutnstrut,

Do you REALLY want to keep hunters out of the woods?


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> In fact the disadavantages of crossbowBOWs (not crossGUNS) seem to me to outweight the advantages.
> Yes, I hunt with one.


If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck....

Shoulder Fired
Inline Scope Mounted w/ Eye relief
Preloaded/Primed
Point and shoot

Ya ...thats a *Bow*

Same thing will happen that happened in muzzleloaders..primitive Kentucky Rifle..to inline..to 250 Yard sabot...Thats the plan..selling Hardware

OK..so that adds September thru November to MODERN weapons pressure on the herd..more specifically..*public land..unmanaged..unchecked herd.*

In Florida, they compromised in that its OK on Private land..No on Public Land. 

Ya know..hunters are diminishing because MOST go into the woods and don't SEE SQUAT...(those that can't afford leases and outfitters) and loose interest.

Yes to Antler Restrictions if more hunting pressure is applied to the Public's Resource. Ya'll willing to manage the herd, set antler restrictions and "maybe" lower harvest tags?

If the WI herd was in such good shape then WHY did they institute EARN A BUCK?? Gotta shoot a doe before a buck.
This will make it worse.....

WI has some GREAT Trophy hunting...don't ruin it by whoring it our to the product manufacturers


----------



## Rothhar1

Relax and let it go already !! This is just the next step in archery just like the Compound bow was 50 years ago . and the guys were saying the same thing about compounds 40 years ago !! 

What are you afraid of that someone will kill all "your" deer or "your special buck". You will survive and so will plenty of deer and also easier is not a bad thing I mean I suppose all the guys who will use xbows could keep using their bows that they can't shoot well because of what ever reason and still wound and lose i.e. "kill" the same number of deer that they already do now only instead of loose them to a gut shot they will recover them because they just mite hit it where they aimed !!


----------



## bigox

*crossbow haters*

ukey::crybaby2: Bunch of greedy "don't shoot MY deer" arrogant borderline antihunters. Let the crossbows in, or go back to handmade bows and arrows.


----------



## Rothhar1

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


That is because we either are facing the same thing or have already faced the xbows inclusion into regular archery and all the doom and gloom guy like you and others who sound foolish with their "crossgun " rhetoric are wrong and working on no real facts and only playing on emotion !


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> Do you REALLY want to keep hunters out of the woods?


As people become incapable of vertical bow hunting, current law allows the transition to crossbows. All these numbers show is that the *current system works *for keeping older people hunting...

What they don't say is how many start then stop at a young age because the experience "SUCKS". Honestly, take a poll on public land hunters over the past 10 years and ask if they see more or less deer per outing...look at data collected for the *number of hunting hrs expended *per harvest..those are WAY UP.

I can tell you I see 50% fewer animals today than 5 years ago and they are smaller/younger and the Trophy Animals I see is 1 or 2 per year. Deer are killed before thier 2nd year...

Why do you think MANY states are going with Antler Restrictions and/or Earn a Buck


----------



## Hoyt Havoc

G3's said:


> Piss poor arguments man, bottom line is you had no clue as to what your bow would do when you first picked it up....so did you learn its limitations before taking it to the field? I guess just because someone shoots a cross bow it means they are somehow less educated and less apt to learn their weapon than say you or I with our traditional compound bow. Come on people, it is time for you to stop being so damn selfish and let hunters enjoy how they choose to spend their time on stand....they still have to figure out how to get within 30-40 yards of the animal and still need to make a clean shot just like you or I. Cross bows are not the end all to archery hunting, it is simply another tool to allow people to enjoy the outdoors and the time spent there. As far as the "worry about your state attitude" get a grip, you are a very small cog in the state wheel in Wisconsin....you pay taxes just like the guy that wants to use a crossbow on his land to hunt deer that use his land for a home....that attitude is archaic and self serving...try getting over yourself



YES, I did know my bows limits before I hunted with it way back in 1977 before I ever even saw a deer in the woods! We shot out to 50yards almost every day and I was taught to not shoot past 30 yards at a deer. 

Not piss poor....I guess you don't know whats going on in Wis. and its my bad for not expounding more. The reason Wi's dnr wants more hunters is to kill more deer. There's already noticable deer herd reductions pretty much state wide. In this unit there's no yearly limit on does and this is true of almost the entire southern half of the state. In the northern half they reintro-ed wolves and they have wreaked havoc on the northern population of deer. A lot of guys are about to give up deer hunting altogether because they never even see a track anymore. There's not a huge bunch of guys pushing for x=bows here. I don't personaly know anyone here who's for it. Probably just the companies that are making them are pushing for it. I have one just to shoot for fun. I'm not anti, I just don't think they belong in the woods with an able bodied person during archery season. I'd think that I might even consider using one in Dec. when the temps are below 20 but that would be late season, not the entire archery season. So I'll try to get over myself and appologize for being so small minded. I just wish mine was half the size of yours. I'm sure you impressed everyone.:nerd:


----------



## The Hoytster

WOW the hatred, the hatred. I got my start hunting with a crossbow 12 years ago. Yes I live in Ohio where crossbow hunting has been legal for the last 35 years. Yet more and more deer are found dead on the side of the road. And they have increased the gun season here. And we have 2 controlled youth hunts before the archery season begins. Now they are talking about expanding the muzzleloader season. And after all that I am able to get a couple of does and the occasional good buck. Dude you got nothing to worry about except someone who just might hunt harded than you but with a crossbow.


----------



## 25ft-up

I'm not against bringing more SPORTSMEN into the field, or against a HUNTER using a crossbow if he can't shoot a bow, but the states are doing this only to make $ and the people it's drawing aren't all the sportsman we are. Jersey allowed crossbows last year and already I've seen ground blinds made out of cut laurels and pines with one little hole to shoot through, only 5yds off scrapes and rub lines. They ruined those spots. It's always been illegal to hunt with a mechanical devise to hold a bow back. Now it's O.K.? It's a way to bring in people who want a easy way to kill deer without having to have any knowledge of how to hunt. Why not allow automatic rifles during muzzleloader season, or tree stands for turkey? Because they ruin the challenge of the sport and fair chase! Why not allow crossbows only during gun season? Because it's easier with a gun. That's why you see a lot of inconsiderate nuts out there gun season. They're not sportsman, and now they're being lured into archery season. jmo. Let them be legal for disabled sportsmen and during winter bow only when it's to cold to draw a bow and too cold for the people who aren't true hunters.


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## rutnstrut

So my arguments are based on emotion,yet those that are supporting them just say they are no different. Then there are those resorting to insulting me,which is no big deal to me. But really does that prove your whole emotional response argument.


----------



## rutnstrut

25ft-up said:


> I'm not against bringing more SPORTSMEN into the field, or against a HUNTER using a crossbow if he can't shoot a bow, but the states are doing this only to make $ and the people it's drawing aren't all the sportsman we are. Jersey allowed crossbows last year and already I've seen ground blinds made out of cut laurels and pines with one little hole to shoot through, only 5yds off scrapes and rub lines. They ruined those spots. It's always been illegal to hunt with a mechanical devise to hold a bow back. Now it's O.K.? It's a way to bring in people who want a easy way to kill deer without having to have any knowledge of how to hunt. Why not allow automatic rifles during muzzleloader season, or tree stands for turkey? Because they ruin the challenge of the sport and fair chase! Why not allow crossbows only during gun season? Because it's easier with a gun. That's why you see a lot of inconsiderate nuts out there gun season. They're not sportsman, and now they're being lured into archery season. jmo. Let them be legal for disabled sportsmen and during winter bow only when it's to cold to draw a bow and too cold for the people who aren't true hunters.



Very well put,but unfortunately now you will be classified as a closed minded,selfish person. Welcome to the club.


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## grizzl

Dang...I missed the HATE post???? Where is it?

Can't have a discussion without being labeled an ANTI,PETA,ELITIST...et all?

People have different experiences on which they base thier opinions ...Both can differ by geographic location...
Ohio isnt Wisconsin, Georgia isn't Virginia, Public isn't Private...

This argument can't be won or lost here...BOYCOTT the Dang XBOW Manufacturers for pushing this crap or buy thier product depending on your position...I am..


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## willie

25ft-up said:


> I'm not against bringing more SPORTSMEN into the field, or against a HUNTER using a crossbow if he can't shoot a bow, but the states are doing this only to make $ and the people it's drawing aren't all the sportsman we are. Jersey allowed crossbows last year and already I've seen ground blinds made out of cut laurels and pines with one little hole to shoot through, only 5yds off scrapes and rub lines. They ruined those spots. It's always been illegal to hunt with a mechanical devise to hold a bow back. Now it's O.K.? It's a way to bring in people who want a easy way to kill deer without having to have any knowledge of how to hunt. Why not allow automatic rifles during muzzleloader season, or tree stands for turkey? Because they ruin the challenge of the sport and fair chase! Why not allow crossbows only during gun season? Because it's easier with a gun. That's why you see a lot of inconsiderate nuts out there gun season. They're not sportsman, and now they're being lured into archery season. jmo. Let them be legal for disabled sportsmen and during winter bow only when it's to cold to draw a bow and too cold for the people who aren't true hunters.


Easy way?

Have you ever hunted with a crossbow? Do you have any idea what it takes?

*NO* piece of archery equipment will hunt for you.

We still have to do our scouting, planning, 20 to 30 yard set ups and hopefully if all goes well we can put some meat in the freezer - JUST LIKE ANY ARCHERY HUNTER DOES.

Such lamblasting other hunters anti-hunting rhetoric does not do our hunting cause any good at all..

Shame...


----------



## willie

grizzl said:


> As people become incapable of vertical bow hunting, current law allows the transition to crossbows. All these numbers show is that the *current system works *for keeping older people hunting...
> 
> *<SNIP> of off topic remarks.. *


Gee, I would have thought that one could look at pictures and see what they are. I guess I was wrong on that.. Some people only se what they want to see.

NO... the "system" is not working. Wisconsin is losing it's older bowhunters and Georgia, as well as some other states aren't.


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> So my arguments are based on emotion,yet those that are supporting them just say they are no different. Then there are those resorting to insulting me,which is no big deal to me. But really does that prove your whole emotional response argument.


So.....when will you be laying down the ROSS CARDIAC SD/ BLACKED OUT ALIEN X THE SWEETEST BOW EVER. BSTINGER,LIMBDRIVER,MAGNUS BROADHEADS BLACKHAWK VAPOR PRO/GT PRO HUNTERS FOB STAFF SHOOTER/ www.starrflight.com AND pick up a RECURVEl bow so you wont be doing it "the easy way"?

*Give us some data as to why Wiscionsin should NOT allow 55 and older the choice of using a crossbow during archery season. *

Show us your NON-emotional argument...


----------



## BuckRubnMI

rutnstrut said:


> So my arguments are based on emotion,yet those that are supporting them just say they are no different. Then there are those resorting to insulting me,which is no big deal to me. But really does that prove your whole emotional response argument.


I shouldn't have included you in my response above because I haven't heard your arguments on x-bow issues and for that I apologize. Michigan dealt with this issue last year and was beat to death on a forum I frequent. The anti x-bow guys on that forum never brought any logic or data into the mix to support their view points, just opinions based on emotions and to some degree, what they consider traditions of archery season. Pro x-bow guys brought logic and data to support their claims as to why introducing x-bows during archery season statewide will not have a negative impact to the resource. Needless to say it passed but not to full inclusion status statewide. It is currently on a trial period which many are fighting to get rid of currently.

I'm not trying to throw you or anyone else under the bus for differing viewpoints on this matter, just make sure you offer something credible to the table when you want your voice to be heard. Otherwise it will probably fall on deaf ears, especially at the higher levels.


----------



## huntin_addict

rutnstrut said:


> First of all you are not from Wi so don't worry about it. Second I NEVER said to ban crossguns.


If you didn't want my input you should have put this in the Wisconsin forum. You've been a member here a long time, every single year this comes up. Now it's a big deal because it's hitting close to home right? Here's what hit close to home for me, my Dad (age 60) switched to a crossbow this past year because he was having a hard time drawing his 50 pound bow. Yes he saw deer, but none that he wanted to harvest in archery range, therefore no shot. The other guy I know who uses a x-bow, no deer in archery range, therefore no shot. I wonder if the harvest numbers have significantly increased in any state where they have legalized x-bows. Can you show me some un-biased data please? By the way, they are crossbows. If you're so salty because you think someone is gonna have an unfair advantage, you better trade in that compound for a spear......


----------



## garrickt

*I don't get it*



tlaw said:


> What people outside of Wisconsin don't understand is that there are already people who are upset with the archery kills and archery buck kills in the state and gun hunters are calling for a shorter season. Now you throw in another bunch of people who wouldn't be out there otherwise because of the crossbows and the added harvest and bow hunters could lose a significant amount of our season due to the sentiment of gun hunters. So maybe we recruit a few more people but the actual bow hunters who are staying in the spirit of the season are going to lose out in the end.
> 
> Wisconsin is the number one state in the nation for P&Y entries but it also has the highest amount of bow hunters in the country. Finding a spot to hunt is hard enough, hunting on public land is just about a joke and this ain't going to make it any better.
> 
> I'll start going to everyone else's state and listen to them piss and moan when I lease their land shoot their big bucks. The same people who are saying people are nuts about being upset about crossbows are also the same people cry about out of staters.


Well, I'm from WI and I don't get it. I enjoy talking to hunters when I meet them, be it Compound, recurve, rifle, muzzleloader or crossbow, although I've never met anyone who hunts with a crossbow...yet, we are all hunters.
I hunt almost exclusively with my bow, other than opening day of the "traditional" gun season. My bow shoots faster than a lot of crossbows on the market, and with the 85% let-off I can hold it for quite a long time. I really don't see an advantage, although I never shot a crossbow so I can only speculate.
I am guessing most of the anti-crossbow guys are members of WBH because that issue seems to be all I ever hear from them, but that's another topic.
As far as the post I quoted goes I never have had a hard time finding a spot to hunt. I do hunt on my private land but that is an hour from home, so I go out frequently to public land or other private land that I have permission to hunt on that is near my house. I rarely see other hunters or even evidence of them except around opening day. 
I think most people that complain about no place to hunt either really just don't care(posers) or are too lazy to find out of the way, readily available hunting areas. There are actually a sh&%load of them close to me, but you'll need to find them yourself.
Live and let live, worry more about your own business than other person's and you will live a happier more fulfilling life.


----------



## Tim50

XForce6 said:


> Hunt with what you want to hunt with just get outdoors and hunt. Like pvbooner said we are a dying breed.


Well said!! It's all hunting.........


----------



## willie

> tlaw
> 
> ................
> 
> 
> I'll start going to everyone else's state and listen to them piss and moan when I lease their land shoot their big bucks. The same people who are saying people are nuts about being upset about crossbows are also the same people cry about out of staters.



C'mon down. I have nothing against out of staters. In fact I hunt out of state too in Illinois and Kentucky...


----------



## rutnstrut

I am starting to understand those that are for this. It's kinda like why can't I use a rifle when I want in my shotgun only zones. Plus I am damn sick of up turkeys hanging up out of range,I should be able to use my 243. I want to spear a deer that should also be allowed,yup I get it now.


----------



## Marvin

Suggestions for those opposed:

i have flipped my stance on this issue. Research my old posts if you want...here are some things you can do to diffuse the situation without looking like a tard.

1) Get youngsters into the woods. teach them about bows and arrows. 
2) provide mentoring possibilities to others that may use the crossbow to get into hunting. 
3) spend some time getting others (adults) excited about archery( with whatever you choose...stickbow or compound) 

doing any of these 3 things will do more positive things for hunting and archery than what you will perceive the negatives are with the crossbow. There are ALWAYS exceptions and people who will abuse. It is easy to dwell on the negatives..


PS.. willie is a tough old bird...you won't rattle his cage easily


----------



## bowhuntermn

rutnstrut said:


> I am starting to understand those that are for this. It's kinda like why can't I use a rifle when I want in my shotgun only zones. Plus I am damn sick of up turkeys hanging up out of range,I should be able to use my 243. I want to spear a deer that should also be allowed,yup I get it now.


You are seriously absolutely clueless to reality


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> Gee, I would have thought that one could look at pictures and see what they are. I guess I was wrong on that.. Some people only se what they want to see.
> 
> NO... the "system" is not working. Wisconsin is losing it's older bowhunters and Georgia, as well as some other states aren't.


I suspect its more than access to Xbows. Wi is THE Trophy State for fair chase. Out of state competition, high lease rates...et all

I posted a poll to see what people think is the reason hunters are leaving the sport..lets see what the AT'rs think based on their personal experiences.
that has mor validity to me than a single bar graph with no published parameters for its creation....????

Heck..could have been a plague and they all died...as good a reason as NONE

BTW..Georgia has a way higher cocentration of deer! Georgia might be stable because they are seeing animals...availability of hunting spots..availablity of game..all these positives tend to make you WANT to hunt...

Crossbows are well down the list on why people want to hunt

Its NOT one dimensional


----------



## Epinepherine

The bottom line is, crossbows will eventually be implemented in your state - for everyone - whether you support it or not. 


Upside: More hunters. Hunters = revenue, votes & more power in preserving our rights.

Downside: Disgruntled old-timers.

:thumbs_up


----------



## grizzl

Epinepherine said:


> The bottom line is, crossbows will eventually be implemented in your state - for everyone - whether you support it or not.
> 
> 
> Upside: More hunters. Hunters = revenue, votes & more power in preserving our rights.
> 
> Downside: Disgruntled old-timers.
> 
> :thumbs_up



DOWNSIDE: More competition for your LEASE thus the $$ go UP
Higher Kills--smaller younger animals shot
Higher wounding (less experienced hunters)
More Crowded - Public Land
Herd damaged futrher
Antler restrictions/ game harvest restrictions 
Whats next? Compressed Ait guns that shoot a Bolt?

You most likely are right on passage..but I think I'll fight it just the same. What else are us old timers to do???


----------



## Shelby

rutnstrut said:


> For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case. Kind of interesting that most of the pro crossgunners weighing in on this are NOT from Wi or the area.


This is amazing ignorance!

I'll answer this very simple.......so they are able to hunt, which we all have the right to do, and can have a weapon capable of killing. They don't use them because it's easier or for an advantage, they use them because it's the only weapon they are capable of using.


----------



## ndemiter

lots of states have legalized crossbows. modern science has yet to prove that the use of them makes any noticable difference in the deer herd. Ohio dnr did a study, michigan, Kansas, Missouri, south carolina and florida, i think texas, but i'm not sure. michigan requires a crossbow stamp to more closely monitor the EXACT effects that the regulations are having.

the thing about politics is that there's always someone out there telling you to be afraid. "be afraid, your oppertunity to hunt is being taken away by crossbow hunters", "your hunting rights are in danger"... and fear is what motivates americans. pay attention to this, you'll now notice it in every add campaign for hunting organizations, shooting organizations... and commercial organizations. fear is what seperates people from their money.

furthermore, i think it will bring new bow sales to archey shops that are already struggling. why be fraid of change? introducing crossbow hunting may bring much needed dollars to your states DNR allowing them to do some much needed work on your deer herds (which i'm told have been suffering quite a bit)

just a few ideas to put out there, really, i just don't believe that one group of hunters should monopolize the woods.




rutnstrut said:


> More crossgun propaganda,if you are going to the spring meetings tonight,JUST SAY NO. Better yet say HELL NO,the following is the garbage put out by the crossgun lovers. I want to say I have no problems with crossbows for the elderly/disabled as it is now.
> 
> 
> For those going to the Conservation Congress spring hearings tomorrow night, you might find that there will be a floor resolution voted on in your county that hopes to expand crossbow usage in the archery deer season for everbody. The American Crossbow Federation had a booth at the deer and Turkey expo and was handing out the document below which includes a crossbow resolution which would make crossbow legal for every person. You may want to use your own personal network of friends to get the word out and have your bowhunting friends attend the spring hearing on this issue and question 86 which seeks to lower the crossbow age. Below is the info the crossbow federation was handing out.
> 
> ------------------------------------- Dear Crossbow Enthusiast:
> 
> The Wisconsin Crossbow Federation is a newly formed associate member of the American Crossbow Federation representing the interests of crossbow owners in Wisconsin. When you paid your fees to become a member of the American Crossbow Federation, you automatically became a member of the Wisconsin Crossbow Federation. There is no additional cost to you.
> 
> -----------
> 
> The Wisconsin


----------



## jlh42581

grizzl said:


> DOWNSIDE: More competition for your LEASE thus the $$ go UP
> Higher Kills--smaller younger animals shot
> Higher wounding (less experienced hunters)
> More Crowded - Public Land
> Herd damaged futrher
> Antler restrictions/ game harvest restrictions
> Whats next? Compressed Ait guns that shoot a Bolt?
> 
> You most likely are right on passage..but I think I'll fight it just the same. What else are us old timers to do???


have you seen most of the bucks/doe's that 90% of the population will parade around forums and towns. they couldnt care if they ever shoot a buck over a 100" , guys who hunt mature bucks are a minority. everyone always feels the need to make some excuse... i had very little time, its just a doe I know, hes not too big but hes an 8pt. why the excuses? cause, they HAD to kill something to feel success. until the day comes where most people are completely fed up with harvesting deer you will never have a large number of deer over 2.5 years old on public land. im amazed at what some people will get full shoulder mounts of. do i like that, nope, but its not going to change, big racks and the people who kill them are usually guys who can say no, i wont shoot that 2.5 yr old buck even if the guy over the next ridge does. until you have your own ground, rifle season is the demise of young deer, not archery no matter what kind of bow it is.


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> I am starting to understand those that are for this. It's kinda like why can't I use a rifle when I want in my shotgun only zones. Plus I am damn sick of up turkeys hanging up out of range,I should be able to use my 243. I want to spear a deer that should also be allowed,yup I get it now.



No, you don't "get it now". You do not have an inkling of what it is all about.

Just more of your emotion driven hyperbole.

*AGAIN* - Please show us how lowering the age limit to 55 will negatively affect your's or the states deer hunting.


----------



## willie

grizzl said:


> DOWNSIDE: More competition for your LEASE thus the $$ go UP
> Higher Kills--smaller younger animals shot
> Higher wounding (less experienced hunters)
> More Crowded - Public Land
> Herd damaged futrher
> Antler restrictions/ game harvest restrictions
> Whats next? Compressed Ait guns that shoot a Bolt?


Documentation of that please. 

Please show us verifiable data from any state where this has happened because of the introduction of crossbows into the archery seasons.



> You most likely are right on passage..but I think I'll fight it just the same. What else are us old timers to do???


As an "oldtimer" I say that since you will have another choice in archery hunting gear, you might want to try a crossbow out. It might just pleasantly surprise you.

The flight of the arrow is still the flight of the arrow.


----------



## huntin_addict

rutnstrut said:


> I am starting to understand those that are for this. It's kinda like why can't I use a rifle when I want in my shotgun only zones. Plus I am damn sick of up turkeys hanging up out of range,I should be able to use my 243. I want to spear a deer that should also be allowed,yup I get it now.


No, you really don't get it. I want to preserve my right to hunt. We as archers are a SMALL minority in the hunting community, comparitively speaking. Remember this, we could be next on the hit list....


----------



## MarkalMod

rutnstrut said:


> Actually I don't think we need more hunters added this way,if you want it lobby for it in YOUR state.


Wisconsin is MY state......

I'd rather put up with the horror of seeing a crossbow and maybe go to confession or something if I ever become covetous than ban someone else hunting.....


on the other hand I'm sure you could get some PETA members to help youpass out flyers.....


----------



## MarkalMod

huntin_addict said:


> No, you really don't get it. I want to preserve my right to hunt. We as archers are a SMALL minority in the hunting community, comparitively speaking. Remember this, we could be next on the hit list....


nope, if you aint with strut you don;t get it.


now run along, whoever is readerin these posts to you should probably get you a bath and off to bed, silly youngin



I look at rants like ruts and I realize there is a reason city folks generalize us as simple, angry ********......


----------



## richard jb

Ronbo 316 said:


> *Cannibals and Useful Idiots*
> 
> The following is real, and it’s here now. Joe Hunter goes to a cocktail party, nothing fancy, just a holiday gathering in Anytown, USA. A conversation begins with Bob Peta, it goes something like this.
> 
> *Bob Peta:* Say Joe, didn’t you go deer hunting this year?
> 
> *Joe Hunter:* Sure did Bob.
> 
> *Bob:* Man, that’s great, did you get one?
> 
> *Joe:* Yep, I sure did, a nice six pointer.
> 
> *Bob:* Hey, that’s great. Say listen Joe, you’re a true hunter, a “real” hunter are you not?
> 
> *Joe:* I sure am.
> 
> *Bob:* Say, I hear tell of a kind of hunting where people can go kill animals in fenced areas. You’ve never done that, have you?
> 
> *Joe:* No, no I haven’t.
> 
> *Bob:* Well, I wouldn’t call that real hunting, would you Joe?
> 
> *Joe:* Well, that’s not the way I hunt.
> 
> *Bob:* I know Joe, but there are people who hunt in fenced areas. I don’t think that’s really hunting, do you Joe?
> 
> *Joe:* well, uh, I guess not.
> 
> *Bob:* Great. Say, listen Joe, a group of us concerned “real” hunters are trying to get that method of hunting done away with. We feel it is unethical, will you help us?
> 
> *Joe:* Sure, because that is not the way I hunt, and I’m a real hunter.
> 
> *Bob:* Thanks Joe. Here is what we need you to do. As a real hunter the big boys in Congress and the Senate will listen to you. They know that any “real” hunter only hunts the way you do, and that’s the only real hunting there is. What we need you to do is get out there and get petitions signed, people will sign them because you are a real hunter, and they know that only your way of hunting is the “real” way.
> 
> So Joe diligently goes after the goal, to ban, and outlaw any kind of hunting that Bob suggest is not real hunting. He gathers up signatures, petitions courts, and makes meetings. He is really cleaning up this unethical way of hunting, he’s got a lot of support. He is gathering “real” hunters from all over, and finally, after much hard work, they get a legal way of hunting banned.
> 
> *Bob:* Joe, you did great and we sure appreciate your hard work, but let me tell you what I heard. There is another type of hunting that we think is not right. Could you help us again?
> 
> *Joe:* Well I guess so Bob. I don’t hunt like that, so it’s not real hunting anyway. How can I help?
> 
> It’s the same old story. It’s odd how Bob Peta keeps adding to the list of what “real” hunting is. However, Joe goes at it hard and heavy, and in the end, he helps get that type of hunting banned. Bob and his friends are happy. Joe is a “real” hunter, and these other guy’s aren’t, because the way they hunt is different from Joe, and Joe does not like that way of hunting. So what’s the harm in getting rid of that type of hunting. Joe is a “real” hunter after all, not like those other guys. He even goes to sportsmen’s organizations and recruits from within, it’s easy because they are all “real” hunters too.
> Time passes, and more and more legal ways of hunting are banned. Bob and his friends are real happy with Joe, he’s been a real help. So after all the unethical ways of hunting are gone, Bob and his friends decide that it is time to get Joe’s way of hunting banned, the final chapter.
> 
> *Joe:* Bob, hey buddy, this is Joe. I know I helped you get rid of all those other forms of legal hunting, but now there is a move to get rid of the way I hunt.
> 
> *Bob:* Well Joe, I know. My friends and I are spearheading that movement.
> 
> *Joe:* But Bob, I thought you liked the way I hunt, and it was OK for me to do that type of hunting?
> 
> *Bob:* Well Joe, no, any and all types of hunting are bad, the poor defenseless animals never have a chance, and we dislike, actually we hate hunters.
> 
> *Joe:* But I thought the way I hunted was “real” hunting to you?
> 
> *Bob:* Joe, it was all real hunting, but we at PETA and HSUS hate you. Thanks for all your help, we greatly appreciate it.
> 
> You see, what Joe became was a “Cannibal”, a"Useful Idiot” to the anti-hunters at HSUS and PETA . They don’t give a rats backside how you hunt, what you hunt, or where you hunt, they just want all hunting done away with. The sad thing is that they use hunters against hunters for their causes. If you do not support any and all forms of legal hunting, or voice any decent about the way someone else legally hunts, you my friend are a “Cannibal”, and a very “Useful Idiot” to the enemy. Think twice the next time you mouth off against another hunter’s methods, they could be coming after you next.
> 
> Written by: John Wasmuth


PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Way to go Ronbo!!!!!


----------



## rutnstrut

MarkalMod said:


> Wisconsin is MY state......
> 
> I'd rather put up with the horror of seeing a crossbow and maybe go to confession or something if I ever become covetous than ban someone else hunting.....
> 
> 
> on the other hand I'm sure you could get some PETA members to help youpass out flyers.....


I am not talking about banning anything,there is ample opportunity to use a crossbow in Wi if you need one. Where will it stop,soon those that have trouble using a vert bow or crossbow will want to use guns in archery season. Maybe there are those that want to use a laser sight on their bows/guns,but no one is complaining about that. One of the toughest things about bowhunting is getting drawn on game or holding for awhile if you have to. These challenges are eliminated with a crossbow,am I being a bit emotional,maybe. But I tend to get emotional about the things I am passionate about.


----------



## goathollow

If I agree with you is ok for me to post in this thread since I'm not from Wisconsin? If you don't want folks to comment then don't post in a world wide public forum. 

I should also make the point that what happens in any one state is the concern for all of us. If you all pass a law that somehow limits or propogates hunting in Wisconsin then its more likely that it will end up on the books in other states too.

Finally, I don't agree with you and I don't own or shoot an xbow. Frankly, I see no reason what-so-ever to prohibit them during archery season. In fact, wish they would allow them here in Indiana for other than aged or disabled. 

Please make a logical, unemotional and unbiased arguement against xbows and I will be glad to listen.



rutnstrut said:


> First of all you are not from Wi so don't worry about it. Second I NEVER said to ban crossguns.


----------



## grizzl

jlh42581 said:


> until you have your own ground, rifle season is the demise of young deer, not archery no matter what kind of bow it is.


I consider and *Xbow to be equal at least to a shotgun *and just below a rifle. I consider thier impact GREATER than a shotgun because it is silent delivery and deer won't be alerted to danger by noise during extended archery season. I consider *adding three more months to the modern hunting *season to equate logically to more deer killed. Virginia kills/Harvests rose 15% from 2005 (those reported) when xbows were intoduced.

*Now given that Public land is NOT monitored for harvests and kills and deer populations are estimates at best...the impact to the herd could be catostrophic. *

This is a logical squence of assumptions suppoorted by data from 

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/deer/harvest/


----------



## goathollow

Please show me any statistical or scientific evidence that there are higher kill rates, higher wounding rates (sidebar: are these two things not contrary) more crowded public land, herd damaged further, antler restrictions/game harvest restrictions caused by crossbows. Dude, you are making this stuff up as you go along.



grizzl said:


> DOWNSIDE: More competition for your LEASE thus the $$ go UP
> Higher Kills--smaller younger animals shot
> Higher wounding (less experienced hunters)
> More Crowded - Public Land
> Herd damaged futrher
> Antler restrictions/ game harvest restrictions
> Whats next? Compressed Ait guns that shoot a Bolt?
> 
> You most likely are right on passage..but I think I'll fight it just the same. What else are us old timers to do???


----------



## willie

goathollow said:


> .............
> 
> Please make a logical, unemotional and unbiased arguement against xbows and I will be glad to listen.


We've been patiently waiting for three pages now for that. 

The only thing he has come up with is the old "draw in the presence of game".

He even went so far to post "One of the toughest things about bowhunting is getting drawn on game or holding for awhile if you have to."

LOL.. I guess he hasn't hunted all that long.

How can it be so "tough" when: 

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..

Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.

Anyone that has hunted very long will tell you that just getting within shooting distance of the game that you are after is the "tough part" of bowhutning.


----------



## goathollow

Really...do you really consider a crossbow to be equal to a shotgun and just below a rifle....you're kiddin right? You really are not that poorly informed about crossbows are you?



grizzl said:


> I consider and *Xbow to be equal at least to a shotgun *and just below a rifle. I consider thier impact GREATER than a shotgun because it is silent delivery and deer won't be alerted to danger by noise during extended archery season. I consider *adding three more months to the modern hunting *season to equate logically to more deer killed. Virginia kills/Harvests rose 15% from 2005 (those reported) when xbows were intoduced.
> 
> *Now given that Public land is NOT monitored for harvests and kills and deer populations are estimates at best...the impact to the herd could be catostrophic. *
> 
> This is a logical squence of assumptions suppoorted by data from
> 
> http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/deer/harvest/


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> Documentation of that please.
> 
> Please show us verifiable data from any state where this has happened because of the introduction of crossbows into the archery seasons.
> 
> 
> 
> As an "oldtimer" I say that since you will have another choice in archery hunting gear, you might want to try a crossbow out. It might just pleasantly surprise you.
> 
> The flight of the arrow is still the flight of the arrow.


I will have to do some more research but 
1) Supply and Demand is logical on Lease prices. More people competing the higher the cost

2) The inexperience factor is a logical given- people who never before shot/hunted with a bow will take the field. Having only had experienced with shoulder fired weapons..it is logical they will be VERY comfortable with the mechanics of a cross bow BUT not the Physics/Tragectory ergo more misses/wounded

See the PROBLEM IS..the DNR does NOT KEEP RECORDS..the ASSUME populations/kills/wounds using SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guesses)

If they were efficent enough to measure, they would see what is being talked about around the camfires...NO GAME..SMALL GAME..getting RUN over in the woods by hunters walking/stalking...

I hope to shoot until I can't. My best friend's dad in Wisconsin just went to Xbow...he is 89. Tough old bird


----------



## willie

grizzl said:


> I consider and *Xbow to be equal at least to a shotgun *and just below a rifle.
> 
> *You're kidding, right? I hunt with a crossbow and my shots are 40 and under. I also hunt with a slug gun and my shots are 125+ yards. The only der rifle I use is a Ruger .44 Mag Carbine and it is a 200 yard gun.*.
> 
> I consider thier impact GREATER than a shotgun because it is silent delivery and deer won't be alerted to danger by noise during extended archery season.
> 
> *LOL.. have you ever heard a crossbow go off? That crossbow noise will get to the deer before the arrrow does. In the case of a firearm that bullet will get to the deer before the noise does. I've never herad of a deer "jumping a bullet", have you?
> 
> BTW - deer are not alerted to danger by noise". They are alerted to danger of man (lots of men) being in the woods.*
> 
> I consider *adding three more months to the modern hunting *season to equate logically to more deer killed. Virginia kills/Harvests rose 15% from 2005 (those reported) when xbows were intoduced.
> 
> *Were they all crossbow kills? My state of Indiana has been setting records too and we have relegated crossbows to the late archery season... so far.*
> 
> *Now given that Public land is NOT monitored for harvests and kills and deer populations are estimates at best...the impact to the herd could be catostrophic. *
> 
> *"Catostrophic"? Show is where any state has had a "catostrophic" decline because of crossbows..
> 
> Better yet... show us where allowing 55 and older to use crossbows has been anything but a great thing for the state and the deer herd.*
> 
> This is a logical squence of assumptions suppoorted by data from
> 
> http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/deer/harvest/
> 
> *So, where is the crossbw negative impact?*



.............


----------



## grizzl

goathollow said:


> Please show me any statistical or scientific evidence that there are higher kill rates, higher wounding rates (sidebar: are these two things not contrary) more crowded public land, herd damaged further, antler restrictions/game harvest restrictions caused by crossbows. Dude, you are making this stuff up as you go along.


Just posted the VA link. 2005 was Xbow birth..take a year for aclimation.
Kill #'s up 15%. No Other reg changes..just xbow.

I mean if you do one- Xbow..*YOU HAVE to have *and I'd support doing the other 2 to protect the herd. Antler Restrictions and Better Harvest Collection practices so accurate estimates can determined

Nope...not making it up..reading and listening. (but NOT to the propagandists)


----------



## willie

grizzl said:


> Just posted the VA link. 2005 was Xbow birth..take a year for aclimation.
> Kill #'s up 15%. No Other reg changes..just xbow.
> 
> I mean if you do one- Xbow..*YOU HAVE to have *and I'd support doing the other 2 to protect the herd. Antler Restrictions and Better Harvest Collection practices so accurate estimates can determined
> 
> Nope...not making it up..reading and listening. (but NOT to the propagandists)


Oh yes... there was other changes (besides a growing deer herd).

Muzzleloader season was expanded greatly at the same time. Some of it into the early archery seasons..

It used to be archery for the entire bow season. Then muzzleloader was allowed for 1 week in the 2 week dead time between archery and general gun. Then they allowed archery in those 2 "dead" weeks. Then muzzleloader increased to 2 weeks in the eastern 1/2 of VA. muzzleloader was only 1 of those weeks in the western 1/2 of VA. It recently was increased to both weeks.


----------



## ttank0789

I don't understand the argument that allowing crossbows for everyone will result in people who don't know what they are doing heading out into the woods. There are people with compounds and guns that have no clue what they are doing and still go hunting. Granted, aiming a compound or traditional equipment is a little more difficult than aiming a crossbow but people are still going to shoot traditional bows and compounds inaccurately. A person can put scope on a crossbow and not sight it in and think its good to go just as easily as someone can but a sight on a compound and think is ready to take into the woods.


----------



## Big Country

rutnstrut said:


> First of all you are not from Wi so don't worry about it. Second I NEVER said to ban crossguns.


First, I am not from Wisconsin......so I will not be having anything to do with this battle.

Second, can you offer any statistical data from any state that has included crossbow usage for ALL hunters during general archery season that shows ANY negative impact?

Third, have YOU ever tried out a top end crossbow?


I have......just to satisfy my curiosity, and as long as I am healthy, I have no intentions of ever using a crossbow for hunting. I see no reason to handicap myself.:wink: Yep, other than the drawing in the presence of game thing, the crossbow offers no advantage over a compound bow, and drawing in the presence of game just is not that hard to do. When I do choose to challenge myself by using a more primitive weapon, I opt for one of my recurves......

That said, I do not fear crossbows......they are nothing more than another weapon used to launch a pointy stick with the same effective range as a compound bow.:darkbeer:


----------



## Big Country

rutnstrut said:


> I am not talking about banning anything,there is ample opportunity to use a crossbow in Wi if you need one. Where will it stop,soon those that have trouble using a vert bow or crossbow will want to use guns in archery season. Maybe there are those that want to use a laser sight on their bows/guns,but no one is complaining about that. *One of the toughest things about bowhunting is getting drawn on game or holding for awhile if you have to.* These challenges are eliminated with a crossbow,am I being a bit emotional,maybe. But I tend to get emotional about the things I am passionate about.



Lets see.......I have killed over 200 big game animals with a vertical bow.

I have been busted and lost my shot opportunity while drawing my vertical bow exactly 2 times, and they were both while I was still a pup.

Drawing in the presence of game is a learned skill......and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure it out.


----------



## Duke_II

grizzl said:


> I will have to do some more research but
> 1) Supply and Demand is logical on Lease prices. More people competing the higher the cost
> 
> Translation: I don't want more hunters hunting.
> 
> 2) The inexperience factor is a logical given- people who never before shot/hunted with a bow will take the field. Having only had experienced with shoulder fired weapons..it is logical they will be VERY comfortable with the mechanics of a cross bow BUT not the Physics/Tragectory ergo more misses/wounded
> 
> Translation: I don't want beginners hunting, either.



But it's not about greed, right?


----------



## grizzl

> You're kidding, right? I hunt with a crossbow and my shots are 40 and under. I also hunt with a slug gun and my shots are 125+ yards. The only der rifle I use is a Ruger .44 Mag Carbine and it is a 200 yard gun..


I have a re1100 2/3.4 with Hastings barrel and 1.5x4 leupold and I don't shoot out past 70 offhand. My shots are 40 and below in Virginia forested land. You won't see 125 yards in my woods. So yes..the capable range is the same



> LOL.. have you ever heard a crossbow go off? That crossbow noise will get to the deer before the arrrow does. In the case of a firearm that bullet will get to the deer before the noise does. I've never herad of a deer "jumping a bullet", have you?


Hah..BOOM vs thwack...deer are conditioned to BOOM not THWACK




> BTW - deer are not alerted to danger by noise". They are alerted to danger of man (lots of men) being in the woods.


Again..not in my woods. They are wild and react to Noise immediately. I hunt places that are VERY low Pressure too and NOISE is a killer..ALWAYS. The next time they will be alerted



> Were they all crossbow kills? My state of Indiana has been setting records too and we have relegated crossbows to the late archery season... so far.


Split Some Archery Season is a comprimise. I'd support a share to preserve SOME Archery Only time for me to hunt the way we old timers fought and won the Archery Only Season.

Its was US who federated/organized and lobbied for a special archery season. We did it thru Volunteer works, Archery Training. In short..WE GAVE OUR TIME IN TRADE. *Now you have commercial interests *pushing products trying to leverage off of what we fought for. I resent that to tell the truth.





> "Catostrophic"? Show is where any state has had a "catostrophic" decline because of crossbows..


I said *COULD* and this is *cumulative* in an unmanaged environment...and like I said..xbows is just another example of muzzleloaders/inline rifles...]"Catostrophic" may be out there a little :mg:



> Better yet... show us where allowing 55 and older to use crossbows has been anything but a great thing for the state and the deer herd.


Would be easier if you proved your premise...how has it helped the herd? Sure the state gets money, thats why the go this route


I know there is no conversion in thought here...I believe what I believe and will fight for that. You will do the same. I will NOT buy anything produced by these manufacturers and their parent companies.

Bowling Balls, Pool Supplies, Fasteners, Hunting Gear, even vertical bows, Fishing Gear...nada and I encourage all like minded ARCHERS to do the same.

Its simple..easy to do and to find out what products to avoid. GOOGLE "Registered Agents" for your state..typin in Xbow Mfg Name and look at officers and holding companies...google officers names for parent company affiliations. Just keep Googling..the go to thier website(s) and see what brands/products they manufacture. You can drop them a line on thier website too telling them what you are doing and why.


----------



## ndemiter

grizzl said:


> I consider and *Xbow to be equal at least to a shotgun *and just below a rifle. I consider thier impact GREATER than a shotgun because it is silent delivery and deer won't be alerted to danger by noise during extended archery season. I consider *adding three more months to the modern hunting *season to equate logically to more deer killed. Virginia kills/Harvests rose 15% from 2005 (those reported) when xbows were intoduced.
> 
> *Now given that Public land is NOT monitored for harvests and kills and deer populations are estimates at best...the impact to the herd could be catostrophic. *
> 
> This is a logical squence of assumptions suppoorted by data from
> 
> http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/deer/harvest/


this is why i think that hunting method doesn't matter, apparantly, what the state needs is a new managment strategy. they should talk with ohio, they have too MANY deer to support and keep raising the limits every year.


----------



## willie

No other changes in Virginia?

Virginia 2008-2009 season - Archers, not including crossbow hunters, killed 17,881 deer. The bow kill comprised 7% of the total deer kill. *Crossbows resulted in a deer kill of 9,597 deer or 4% of the total deer kill.* 
Muzzleloader hunters killed 57,038 deer. *Muzzleloading comprised 22% of the total deer harvest.*

Virginia 2009-2010 season - Archers, not including crossbow hunters, killed 16,947 deer during the 2009-10 season. The bow kill comprised 7% of the total deer kill. This was down 6% from 2008-09. 

*Crossbows resulted in a deer kill of 9,456 deer or 4% of the total deer kill. The 2009-10 crossbow deer kill was down 2% from 2008-09.* 
Muzzleloader hunters killed 55,900 deer. *Muzzleloading comprised 22% of the total deer kill.*

Crossbowers are killing 4% of the deer taken and muzzleloaders are killing 22% and you are worried about crossbows causing a "catostrophic eventy".

LOL...too funny.


----------



## Big Country

grizzl, did you kick up your heels in fear of the sky falling when compound bows came rolling into archery season?:noidea:

The ease of use, accuracy, and effective range between a trad bow and a compound bow is HUGE.

The ease of use, accuracy, and effective range between a compound and a crossbow are nil.

You have "X" number of tags to fill, and you have 2 weapons that use energy stored in limbs and delivered via strings to an arrow......what difference does it make to your hunting enjoyment which type of bow is used?


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## rutnstrut

I guess 26 years of bowhunting/hunting is not much experience,I have some damn nice bucks to my credit with a bow. But I can think of many more kills I would have if I just had to lean the "weapon" on a shooting rail,aim,and pull the trigger. Yeah that's no easier than using a vertical bow. I also love the "tact" of the pro crossbow crowd on this thread that have resorted to personal attacks,maybe YOU should consider PETA.


----------



## ndemiter

willie said:


> Oh yes... there was other changes (besides a growing deer herd).
> 
> Muzzleloader season was expanded greatly at the same time. Some of it into the early archery seasons..
> 
> It used to be archery for the entire bow season. Then muzzleloader was allowed for 1 week in the 2 week dead time between archery and general gun. Then they allowed archery in those 2 "dead" weeks. Then muzzleloader increased to 2 weeks in the eastern 1/2 of VA. muzzleloader was only 1 of those weeks in the western 1/2 of VA. It recently was increased to both weeks.




this figure only means something when you compare it to hunter numbers, and deer herd size. increase in public hunting oppertunity (walk in hunting areas) or opening of new wildlife areas attribute to this as well.

i'm really not trying to be a jerk, but there are so many factors to account for, it's not really worth arguing about.

so... in your opinion, we should increase deer numbers by decreasing hunter oppertunity? i think that is a dangerous way to think. before you know it, the dnr will get the bright idea to limit deer harvest based upon land consumption, so for every acre that gets developed, they take 5 licenses out of the harvest quota. because, if we're not preserving habitat, then we can't hunt as many right?:darkbeer:


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## rutnstrut

Guy's/Gals,I am speaking for Wi on this thread because that is where I hunt and have land. We also have a very serious problem with low deer numbers in Wi now. The Wi DNR needs to develop accurate ways to count deer before they worry about more opportunities to kill them.


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## willie

ndemiter said:


> this figure only means something when you compare it to hunter numbers, and deer herd size. increase in public hunting oppertunity (walk in hunting areas) or opening of new wildlife areas attribute to this as well.
> 
> i'm really not trying to be a jerk, but there are so many factors to account for, it's not really worth arguing about.
> 
> so... in your opinion, we should increase deer numbers by decreasing hunter oppertunity? i think that is a dangerous way to think. before you know it, the dnr will get the bright idea to limit deer harvest based upon land consumption, so for every acre that gets developed, they take 5 licenses out of the harvest quota. because, if we're not preserving habitat, then we can't hunt as many right?:darkbeer:



You get no argument from me on that. But I do think you misread me..

There are many factors involved in the increase or decrease of yearly kills. Anyone that has been around deer for very long can attest to that.

Griz wants to say that all that "16% kill increase" from way bacak in 2005 was all due to crossbows. 

I'm saying that ain't but a small (4%) fraction of it.

I think that each DNR should allow as much hunter opportunity as they can as along as the herd does not suffer. As good as archers are getting we are still only a small fraction of the kill.


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> Guy's/Gals,I am speaking for Wi on this thread because that is where I hunt and have land. We also have a very serious problem with low deer numbers in Wi now. The Wi DNR needs to develop accurate ways to count deer before they worry about more opportunities to kill them.


I'd say that the Wisconsin DNR is a little sharper on that than you are..

*AGAIN* - show us how allowing 55 and older to use a crossbows will have a negative effect on the Wisconsin deer herd.


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## Big Country

rutnstrut said:


> I guess 26 years of bowhunting/hunting is not much experience,I have some damn nice bucks to my credit with a bow. But I can think of many more kills I would have if I just had to lean the "weapon" on a shooting rail,aim,and pull the trigger. Yeah that's no easier than using a vertical bow. I also love the "tact" of the pro crossbow crowd on this thread that have resorted to personal attacks,maybe YOU should consider PETA.


First, please show me where I remotely attacked you, or any other member here?

Second, please do not attempt to simplify the usage of a crossbow to fit your personal dislike for them.

It is funny how those deer do not always follow the script and walk right in front of a stand with a shooting rail.

In fact, if they walk directly behind the tree your stand is in, you can still shoot with a vertical bow, but in most cases....not with a crossbow.

And keep in mind, I have never hunted with a crossbow, nor do I intend on doing so. I do not sell them, manufacture, or derive any financial gain from their acceptance.

The simple truth is that when comparing crossbows and vertical bows, each has their small advantages over the other, with neither ending up a superior hunting weapon overall.

When the wheat is separated from the chaff, folks that are against crossbows are worried that they may have to share the woods with more people.


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## rutnstrut

My last post is where you guys really need to be from Wi or familiar with our recent issues to really know what you are talking about. But if you want to keep firing back with emotional responses,I understand.


----------



## rutnstrut

willie said:


> I'd say that the Wisconsin DNR is a little sharper on that than you are..
> 
> *AGAIN* - show us how allowing 55 and older to use a crossbows will have a negative effect on the Wisconsin deer herd.


That is where you are waaay off,the Wi DNR has really screwed the pooch lately. But what would I know,I have just lived and hunted here all my life. I would have no problem with crossbows for 55+,IF it would stop there. But I know how things work in this state and fear it would be the beginning of full inclusion.


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## Bobmuley

rutnstrut said:


> My last post is where you guys really need to be from Wi or familiar with our recent issues to really know what you are talking about. But if you want to keep firing back with emotional responses,I understand.


There is a state forum to keep things in perspective to fellow Wisconsin"ites"(?). Since you posted it out here its pretty much fair game.

I think most bowhunters overreact to the thought of crossbows. I know many of the "hardliners" in Colorado feel that they are a "threat" to bowhunting, yet I've never seen a reason to fear them or found any evidence of them reducing regular bowhunting opportunities.


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## rutnstrut

Bobmuley said:


> There is a state forum to keep things in perspective to fellow Wisconsin"ites"(?). Since you posted it out here its pretty much fair game.
> 
> I think most bowhunters overreact to the thought of crossbows. I know many of the "hardliners" in Colorado feel that they are a "threat" to bowhunting, yet I've never seen a reason to fear them or found any evidence of them reducing regular bowhunting opportunities.


In a way you are right about posting here and being fair game. However I did title the thread "Wi bowhunters,just say NO!!!". I don't mind the other input,BUT when others try and give me the it's fine here so it will be in your area,that gets me. There are many issues that are specific to Wi lately that unless you are familiar with the state you have little idea.


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## Big Country

rutnstrut said:


> My last post is where you guys really need to be from Wi or familiar with our recent issues to really know what you are talking about. But if you want to keep firing back with emotional responses,I understand.


There are some emotional responses here for sure.

I have hunted WI more than a few times, and your current problems are no different than several other states I regularly hunt have gone through.

If you really want to worry about a WI hunting problem.......take a look at the hunting while drinking thing that is big in your state.


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## Big Country

rutnstrut said:


> In a way you are right about posting here and being fair game. However I did title the thread "Wi bowhunters,just say NO!!!". I don't mind the other input,BUT when others try and give me the it's fine here so it will be in your area,that gets me. *There are many issues that are specific to Wi lately that unless you are familiar with the state you have little idea.*


Then by all means, please show us an example of an issue that is unique to WI that would make crossbow inclusion a bad thing?

Of course you would need to provide some type of data to back up your thoughts.


----------



## granny

bowhuntermn said:


> Seriously, so the "rules" are good as long as they reflect your wishes? Whether or not you want it, crossbows will be legal in MN for all of bow season within 5 years max. And I'm all for bring it on, let's get more people into the "sport" as you call it.
> 
> Let's take another approach and say, why should you be able to hunt with a "compound" and not a self made stick bow? Compounds are for the folks without the discipline and know how to shoot a stick bow. Why should they be able to hunt?
> 
> I'm curious as to what you consider the "rules" to be?


rules = hunting regulations.
archery is a sport, I didn't come up with that.
a compound is legal so I can hunt with it.
you like to attack..........don't attack me.
Like I said before, where does it stop? guns during all of B&A season ? Someone else said the same thing & nobody answered him.
You people can write about what I write but do not attack me.


----------



## Bobmuley

rutnstrut said:


> In a way you are right about posting here and being fair game. However I did title the thread "Wi bowhunters,just say NO!!!". I don't mind the other input,BUT when others try and give me the it's fine here so it will be in your area,that gets me. There are many issues that are specific to Wi lately that unless you are familiar with the state you have little idea.


Believe me when I say that CWD and game mismanagement are NOT specific to Wisconsin.:smile:

I find it very ironic that the group that fought so hard to get the first non-firearm season in the country is the very group trying to exclude another from accomplishing its inclusion as well.

What would Roy Case say?


----------



## bowhuntermn

rutnstrut said:


> Guy's/Gals,I am speaking for Wi on this thread because that is where I hunt and have land. We also have a very serious problem with low deer numbers in Wi now. The Wi DNR needs to develop accurate ways to count deer before they worry about more opportunities to kill them.


The "lower number" of deer in WI has nothing to do with crossbows, but rather the poor calculations of the DNR. Who took lessons from the MN DNR on how to count.


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## garrickt

rutnstrut said:


> Guy's/Gals,I am speaking for Wi on this thread because that is where I hunt and have land. We also have a very serious problem with low deer numbers in Wi now. The Wi DNR needs to develop accurate ways to count deer before they worry about more opportunities to kill them.


I hunt Sauk and Dane county. Yes, numbers are down from the past 5 years or so. But we are nowhere near experiencing a "serious problem" with low deer numbers. Mature buck sightings have actually increased for me dramatically. You are either misinformed or being misinformed, sorry no offense.
Do you really think that with cross bows all of a sudden 10,000 more people will take to the woods?
More than likely it will be people that are already out there simply using a new weapon of choice.


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## bowhuntermn

granny said:


> rules = hunting regulations.
> archery is a sport, I didn't come up with that.
> a compound is legal so I can hunt with it.
> you like to attack..........don't attack me.
> Like I said before, where does it stop? guns during all of B&A season ? Someone else said the same thing & nobody answered him.
> You people can write about what I write but do not attack me.


My response to you wasn't an attack, but rather a question. I simply asked that as long as the "rules" follow your wishes they are okay at least by your response. So, you like to hunt with a compound, big deal no problems. But you are all against crossbows which I find hard to understand. Hunting is hunting and as long as it's legal, who cares what you hunt with.


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## rutnstrut

garrickt said:


> I hunt Sauk and Dane county. Yes, numbers are down from the past 5 years or so. But we are nowhere near experiencing a "serious problem" with low deer numbers. Mature buck sightings have actually increased for me dramatically. You are either misinformed or being misinformed, sorry no offense.
> Do you really think that with cross bows all of a sudden 10,000 more people will take to the woods?
> More than likely it will be people that are already out there simply using a new weapon of choice.


Like I said a more accurate population est system than S.A.K. is needed more than crossbow inclusion. We also need to tackle the baiting issue,and formulate a different approach to CWD. Mature buck sightings are up due largely to EAB which enabled a lot of immature bucks to walk.


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## BuckRubnMI

rutnstrut said:


> My last post is where you guys really need to be from Wi or familiar with our recent issues to really know what you are talking about. But if you want to keep firing back with emotional responses,I understand.



WI DNR admitted to an overestimation of deer herd size and I'm sure you will see changes in the future that will protect the resource. Get used to lower deer numbers though, with CWD issues going on and another 175 deer testing positive this year, WI DNR is going to maintain the deer levels well below carrying capacity because it is the most effective method of controlling the transmission of the disease. Less deer equals less chance of the disease spreading. 

Back to x-bows. Let's say full inclusion passes in Wisconsin and 100,000 hunters purchase a x-bow tag (I highly doubt it will be that many). Hunter success rates in WI average roughly 30% across the board so let's say 30,000 deer are killed in this scenario. It sounds like a lot of deer killed, but the chances that the 100,000 hunters that bought an x-bow tag are NEW hunters to the sport is slim to none so the 30,000 figure doesn't represent additional kills to the total. Many of the hunters will be previous gun hunters and bow hunters that simply decided to use a x-bow to make the kill instead of using a bow or gun. Which means that many of these 30,000 deer would have been killed anyway and many of these 100,000 hunters would be in the woods anyway, just using a different weapon. 

All hypothetical, but I hope you see where I'm going with this.


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## Big Country

BuckRubnMI said:


> WI DNR admitted to an overestimation of deer herd size and I'm sure you will see changes in the future that will protect the resource. Get used to lower deer numbers though, with CWD issues going on and another 175 deer testing positive this year, WI DNR is going to maintain the deer levels well below carrying capacity because it is the most effective method of controlling the transmission of the disease. Less deer equals less chance of the disease spreading.
> 
> Back to x-bows. Let's say full inclusion passes in Wisconsin and 100,000 hunters purchase a x-bow tag (I highly doubt it will be that many). Hunter success rates in WI average roughly 30% across the board so let's say 30,000 deer are killed in this scenario. It sounds like a lot of deer killed, but the chances that the 100,000 hunters that bought an x-bow tag are NEW hunters to the sport is slim to none so the 30,000 figure doesn't represent additional kills to the total. *Many of the hunters will be previous gun hunters and bow hunters that simply decided to use a x-bow to make the kill instead of using a bow or gun. Which means that many of these 30,000 deer would have been killed anyway and many of these 100,000 hunters would be in the woods anyway, just using a different weapon.
> 
> All hypothetical, but I hope you see where I'm going with this*.


Same thing you see in every other state that goes to crossbow inclusion.......a drop in vertical bow hunters, and addition of crossbow hunters, and when you ad the two up, the total is only slightly more than the vertical bow hunters were before the crossbows were included.

There is no logical reason to exclude them.


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## willie

rutnstrut said:


> Like I said a more accurate population est system than S.A.K. is needed more than crossbow inclusion. We also need to tacle the baiting issue,and formulate a different approach to CWD. Mature buck sightings are up due largely to EAB which enabled a lot of immature bucks to walk.


Do you think that your DNR can't walk and chew gum at the same time?

Most DNRs are multi-faceted and can do a lot of thing at one time. Really.....

BTW - mature buck sightings and killing is up everywhere. It is not just in Wisconsin. Take a look at the QDMA 2010 Deer Report



> That is where you are waaay off,the Wi DNR has really screwed the pooch lately. But what would I know,I have just lived and hunted here all my life. I would have no problem with crossbows for 55+,IF it would stop there. But I know how things work in this state and fear it would be the beginning of full inclusion.


LOL... lots of folks think their DNR "screws the pooch" on EVERYTHING that their DNR comes up with. These are the trained people that you all hired, but somehow every other bowhunter thinks he can run the state deer herd better than the DNR deer bioligists can. Everyone is an armchair deer biologist anymore..

So, tell me .. how would full inclusion have a negative effect on the Wisconsin deer herd and just as important, your deer hunting.


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## EyesnSkis

Wow, I don't know whether to be impressed by the number of people who are open-minded enough to see how little the crossbows will hurt things and rather help, or to be disgusted by the number of people who are so gung-ho on just eliminating a person's opportunity to hunt all together.

I don't see a problem by increasing the opportunities for people to get in the woods to hunt, even if it means including crossbows across the board. WI is not the only state that is losing hunters, it's a nationwide thing and we can't afford to lose any more. The next thing you'll see is a vote to allow or disallow hunting all together, which only hurts all of us. 

I would rather see the crossbow be added as a legal form of hunting during the regular archery season than to see our regular archery season cut down by making a separate season for crossbows. We are already losing enough of our bowhunting season to all these separate seasons for guns, it doesn't need to get any worse. 

I sell a fair amount of crossbows and have a fair amount of young people interested in them as well. If it gets someone introduced to the outdoors and hunting when they normally wouldn't have, I'm all for it. 

The WBA has done a lot for our state in the terms of bowhunting, but this isn't one of their shining moments.


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## willie

EyesnSkis said:


> .....
> I sell a fair amount of crossbows and have a fair amount of young people interested in them as well. If it gets someone introduced to the outdoors and hunting when they normally wouldn't have, I'm all for it.


Yes, crossbows are cool to kids. They don't have pre-concieved notions about them. Crossbows *DO* recruit the young who later on can very well take up other forms of archery.

Here is a breakdown of the Ohio archery harvest for hunters between the ages of 10-21 for the 2007-2008 season: 

Age 10 - 95% crossbow, 5% vertical bow 

Age 11 - 91% crossbow, 9% vertical bow 

Age 12 - 86% crossbow, 14% vertical bow 

Age 13 - 75% crossbow, 25% vertical bow 

Age 14 - 74% crossbow, 26% vertical bow 

Age 15 - 65% crossbow, 35% vertical bow 

Age 16 - 56% crossbow, 44% vertical bow

Age 17 - 50% crossbow, 50% vertical bow 

Age 18 - 46% crossbow, 54% vertical bow

Age 19 - 44% crossbow, 56% vertical bow

Age 20 - 41% crossbow, 59% vertical bow

Age 21 - 38% crossbow, 62% vertical bow 





> The WBA has done a lot for our state in the terms of bowhunting, but this isn't one of their shining moments


. 

I'm afraid that you are right.


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## elite hunter

Deer Hunting is suppose to be fun and relaxing. If crossbows become legal during the archery season I don't have a problem with it. I would rather see them legal during our traditional archery season than have the DNR break up the season. I feel the biggest threat to my deer hunting is the rising wolf and bear population. I have no problem sharing the woods with guys shooting arrows or bolts.

My father is 62 and this past season he had to switch to a crossbow because of neck and shoulders problems. We hunt the same ground and I do not feel he has an advantage over me. This will be my 27th season bowhunting in Wisconsin and my dad took me hunting since I was old enough to walk. 

I shoot a top of the line compound with all the bells and whistles. My dad shoots a x-caliber crossbow. Life is short "Enjoy the Hunt."


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## willie

elite hunter said:


> ......
> 
> 
> 
> * life is short "enjoy the hunt."*



*amen!!!*


----------



## garrickt

willie said:


> Yes, crossbows are cool to kids. They don't have pre-concieved notions about them. Crossbows *DO* recruit the young who later on can very well take up other forms of archery.
> 
> Here is a breakdown of the Ohio archery harvest for hunters between the ages of 10-21 for the 2007-2008 season:
> 
> Age 10 - 95% crossbow, 5% vertical bow
> 
> Age 11 - 91% crossbow, 9% vertical bow
> 
> Age 12 - 86% crossbow, 14% vertical bow
> 
> Age 13 - 75% crossbow, 25% vertical bow
> 
> Age 14 - 74% crossbow, 26% vertical bow
> 
> Age 15 - 65% crossbow, 35% vertical bow
> 
> Age 16 - 56% crossbow, 44% vertical bow
> 
> Age 17 - 50% crossbow, 50% vertical bow
> 
> Age 18 - 46% crossbow, 54% vertical bow
> 
> Age 19 - 44% crossbow, 56% vertical bow
> 
> Age 20 - 41% crossbow, 59% vertical bow
> 
> Age 21 - 38% crossbow, 62% vertical bow
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I'm afraid that you are right.


That is an awesome stat. Can you go to the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association website and give them this info along with any other info from Ohio that show crossbows are not a threat to bowhunting. Maybe then they can move forward and work on more important issues in our beloved state.


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## garrickt

rutnstrut said:


> Like I said a more accurate population est system than S.A.K. is needed more than crossbow inclusion. We also need to tackle the baiting issue,and formulate a different approach to CWD. Mature buck sightings are up due largely to EAB which enabled a lot of immature bucks to walk.


First of all, allowing more people to hunt with a crossbow than may not have before will bring in more revenue to allow improvements in other aspects of herd management. I would think that is a positive, especially because as I stated in a previous post the large majority of xbow hunters would be people that already do hunt, or have in the past, but for various reasons just don't anymore.
Secondly, I live and hunt in the heart of the CWD zone. I understand all of the current issues regarding the disease. The *only* issue I have with EAB is that it has been proven that mature bucks transmit the disease at a higher rate than any other age class or sex of whitetail deer. They travel farther and more frequently so this makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that I have to let a mature buck walk(which I did twice last year) if I don't have an authorization sticker. I would much rather have an option of shooting those bucks, (not only for the trophy factor, but also for the possibility of preventing the spread of CWD), and be required to pay a "penalty" so to speak if I fail to also shoot an equal number of does in the same season. Kind of an IOU so to speak. 
Sorry that this is off topic but I needed to respond. Thanks


----------



## willie

garrickt said:


> That is an awesome stat. Can you go to the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association website and give them this info along with any other info from Ohio that show crossbows are not a threat to bowhunting. Maybe then they can move forward and work on more important issues in our beloved state.


LOL.. I don't think that they want to be confused with facts.

They know full well that the number of bowhunters drop off drastically after age 50, but they are still fighting tooth and nail the proposed lowering of the crossbow age limit to 55. 

If memory serves me right they didn't even want the 65 and over afe limit.


----------



## 25ft-up

grizzl said:


> I suspect its more than access to Xbows. Wi is THE Trophy State for fair chase. Out of state competition, high lease rates...et all
> 
> I posted a poll to see what people think is the reason hunters are leaving the sport..lets see what the AT'rs think based on their personal experiences.
> that has mor validity to me than a single bar graph with no published parameters for its creation....????
> 
> Heck..could have been a plague and they all died...as good a reason as NONE
> 
> BTW..Georgia has a way higher cocentration of deer! Georgia might be stable because they are seeing animals...availability of hunting spots..availablity of game..all these positives tend to make you WANT to hunt...
> 
> Crossbows are well down the list on why people want to hunt
> 
> Its NOT one dimensional


Jersey has ripped up the seasons and disected the licenses and permits so they can charge us for every little crumb of a chance to hunt. Now a resident pays well over $300 to hunt($276 just for deer). And they wonder why they're loosing hunters? They think making the crossbow legal will pasify us and bring hunters back, instead of lowering the fees and making cuts. This has me ticked off and I apologize to the people using X-bows if I offended you. X-bows were illegal here since the beginning of time because they eliminate the hardest part of bow hunting, the draw and hold, and it was drilled in my head that they were as bad for bowhunting as full automatics are for gun season. It makes me wonder what they will legalize next and how much more we'll have to pay for it.


----------



## willie

25ft-up said:


> Jersey has ripped up the seasons and disected the licenses and permits so they can charge us for every little crumb of a chance to hunt. Now a resident pays well over $300 to hunt($276 just for deer). And they wonder why they're loosing hunters? They think making the crossbow legal will pasify us and bring hunters back, instead of lowering the fees and making cuts. This has me ticked off and I apologize to the people using X-bows if I offended you. X-bows were illegal here since the beginning of time because they eliminate the hardest part of bow hunting, the draw and hold, and it was drilled in my head that they were as bad for bowhunting as full automatics are for gun season. It makes me wonder what they will legalize next and how much more we'll have to pay for it.


That is pitiful..

I think I would be taking my hunting money elsewhere.

Not too sure what that has to to do with crossbows though.

The "hardest part of bow hunting" is getting close enough to make a killing shot on the animal we are after.


----------



## 25ft-up

willie said:


> That is pitiful..
> 
> I think I would be taking my hunting money elsewhere.
> 
> Not too sure what that has to to do with crossbows though.
> 
> The "hardest part of bow hunting" is getting close enough to make a killing shot on the animal we are after.


They made it legal to bait, too. So getting close even during winter bow is no big deal. Try drawing around 10 degrees.


----------



## thebrowningdude

Any state worried about their deer herd really only needs to reign in one thing. Unlimited doe tags.
Be careful what you wish for.

Without trying to interject into a question about our friends in Wisconsin specifically, but about Xbows bringing in more hunters, I will say this.
I'm one of those guys in his early 50's. I'm going to hunt without a rifle any legal way I can. If an Xbow keeps me in a treestand into my 70's, damn right I'm on board with that.
I'm a private land owner and I know the pressure public hunters feel. I feel bleesed to have 80 acres of my own. I don't think bowhunting public ground would be easy, particularily out East with the large concentration of people. That's why I bought my own ground. However, I really don't think opening up Xbows as a hunting option will really bring in a large influx of completely new hunters, but will keep many current hunters in the field longer.
If it does bring in new blood, that's not a downside either, so long as they are ethical about hunting. 
But then that's true now, isn't it?


----------



## rutnstrut

thebrowningdude said:


> Any state worried about their deer herd really only needs to reign in one thing. Unlimited doe tags.
> Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Without trying to interject into a question about our friends in Wisconsin specifically, but about Xbows bringing in more hunters, I will say this.
> I'm one of those guys in his early 50's. I'm going to hunt without a rifle any legal way I can. If an Xbow keeps me in a treestand into my 70's, damn right I'm on board with that.
> I'm a private land owner and I know the pressure public hunters feel. I feel bleesed to have 80 acres of my own. I don't think bowhunting public ground would be easy, particularily out East with the large concentration of people. That's why I bought my own ground. However, I really don't think opening up Xbows as a hunting option will really bring in a large influx of completely new hunters, but will keep many current hunters in the field longer.
> If it does bring in new blood, that's not a downside either, so long as they are ethical about hunting.
> But then that's true now, isn't it?


The thing is you can already use a xbow here from 65 on or if disabled,and it don't take much of a disability. I really have no problem with even 55+ using crossbows. But as I have repeatedly stated,I am 100% against full inclusion in the archery season.


----------



## justanotherbuck

EyesnSkis said:


> Wow, I don't know whether to be impressed by the number of people who are open-minded enough to see how little the crossbows will hurt things and rather help, or to be disgusted by the number of people who are so gung-ho on just eliminating a person's opportunity to hunt all together.
> 
> I don't see a problem by increasing the opportunities for people to get in the woods to hunt, even if it means including crossbows across the board. WI is not the only state that is losing hunters, it's a nationwide thing and we can't afford to lose any more. The next thing you'll see is a vote to allow or disallow hunting all together, which only hurts all of us.
> 
> I would rather see the crossbow be added as a legal form of hunting during the regular archery season than to see our regular archery season cut down by making a separate season for crossbows. We are already losing enough of our bowhunting season to all these separate seasons for guns, it doesn't need to get any worse.
> 
> I sell a fair amount of crossbows and have a fair amount of young people interested in them as well. If it gets someone introduced to the outdoors and hunting when they normally wouldn't have, I'm all for it.
> 
> The WBA has done a lot for our state in the terms of bowhunting, but this isn't one of their shining moments.


great post .......also one more thing the wisconsin bowhunting association is a joke its only for those that are want to be citified gung ho idiots that think they are hunters


----------



## rutnstrut

justanotherbuck said:


> great post .......also one more thing the wisconsin bowhunting association is a joke its only for those that are want to be citified gung ho idiots that think they are hunters


I am a WBH member and far from being a citified gung ho idiot,and I know I am a hunter. By the way justanotherbuck,how is the Rubi and dirtworks attachment working out. Just wondering if you broke any ground for foodplots yet.


----------



## Duke_II

willie said:


> Yes, crossbows are cool to kids. They don't have pre-concieved notions about them. Crossbows *DO* recruit the young who later on can very well take up other forms of archery.
> 
> Here is a breakdown of the Ohio archery harvest for hunters between the ages of 10-21 for the 2007-2008 season:
> 
> Age 10 - 95% crossbow, 5% vertical bow
> 
> Age 11 - 91% crossbow, 9% vertical bow
> 
> Age 12 - 86% crossbow, 14% vertical bow
> 
> Age 13 - 75% crossbow, 25% vertical bow
> 
> Age 14 - 74% crossbow, 26% vertical bow
> 
> Age 15 - 65% crossbow, 35% vertical bow
> 
> Age 16 - 56% crossbow, 44% vertical bow
> 
> Age 17 - 50% crossbow, 50% vertical bow
> 
> Age 18 - 46% crossbow, 54% vertical bow
> 
> Age 19 - 44% crossbow, 56% vertical bow
> 
> Age 20 - 41% crossbow, 59% vertical bow
> 
> Age 21 - 38% crossbow, 62% vertical bow
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I'm afraid that you are right.


wow. crossbows ARE dangerous. They appear to be some sort of gateway drug.


----------



## Mach4

I have no problem with full inclusion and I don't see it ruining the sport. I think it will only help to recruit more youth to the sport and allow more aging hunters to hunt longer. 

I got into bow hunting after gun hunting and muzzle loader hunting. I found that I enjoyed hunting so much that I wanted to spend more time in the woods and bow hunting and archery was the best way to do it. Crossbows will only help recruit more people to our sport. If xbows become legal for everyone you will not see every gunhunter buying a xbow and spending 30 days in the woods each fall. Some may try it, but most of those guys are only good for a few hours one week per year. In the end you are either a bow hunter or you are not. Having an xbow will not magically give someone the dedication to or the enjoyment from bowhunting that a vertical bow will not. Crossbows may allow some bowhunters to start earlier in life or hunt later in life which is a great thing. Like it or not we are all bowhunters.


----------



## IndianaPSE

rutnstrut said:


> For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case. Kind of interesting that most of the pro crossgunners weighing in on this are NOT from Wi or the area.


Dude! You need to lighten the heck up. Seriously. Here's an opportunity for more, legal fellow hunters to join in the sport. As others have said, we are a dying breed. Take a chill pill and *welcome* folks into the sport. You sound like your way is THEE ONLY way. What if long bow guys talked about compound bows as such when they were introduced? It's not like guys will be hunting with flood lights in the dark out of pickups for YOUR deer. Come on. Loose the holier than thou attitude. Crossbows are a very cool weapon. Just different, that's all.


----------



## eflanders

"also one more thing the wisconsin bowhunting association is a joke its only for those that are want to be citified gung ho idiots that think they are hunters"

The WBH has done more for WI bowhunting than any other organization. The crossbow debate is exactly that, a very strong debate amoungst our membership. Yes the majority of the membership voted to oppose the latest cross-bow proposal. 

One of my good friends had seriously hurt his shoulders and was granted a cross-bow permit due to his handicap status. He was extremely thankful and excited that he could continue to deer hunt accordingly. But the reality was for him that the cross-bow was too heavy for him to hold steady. He also said it was very hard to get into the stand and to hold accordingly. So based on this experience I doubt the cross-bow will be a major negative influence. Personally I do not like the idea that cross-bows be legalized for all and for them to be included as a part of the archery season. But based on my friends experience and those of others I know, my personal feelings regarding this issue are not well founded.


----------



## sconibowhntr

I say let people use xbows, it's not going to doing anything to our archery season. The reason they are going to allow the use of crossbows during archery season is it's in the name crossBOW. All this paranoid talk about......."what's next, gun hunting is going to take over some of our archery season" No it will not, they are two different categories; archery and gun. Definition of archery:"the equipment of an archer, as bows and arrows" yup a crossbow is a type of bow and it uses a bolt which is an arrow. Oh and by the way OP i am from wisconsin and THIS is i how feel, please stop trying to surppress what I love the most.....hunting because all you're doing is helping anti-hunters.


Justin
go crossbows.....not crossguns you can't just make up your own word.:wink:


----------



## rutnstrut

sconibowhntr said:


> I say let people use xbows, it's not going to doing anything to our archery season. The reason they are going to allow the use of crossbows during archery season is it's in the name crossBOW. All this paranoid talk about......."what's next, gun hunting is going to take over some of our archery season" No it will not, they are two different categories; archery and gun. Definition of archery:"the equipment of an archer, as bows and arrows" yup a crossbow is a type of bow and it uses a bolt which is an arrow. Oh and by the way OP i am from wisconsin and THIS is i how feel, please stop trying to surppress what I love the most.....hunting because all you're doing is helping anti-hunters.
> 
> 
> Justin
> go crossbows.....not crossguns you can't just make up your own word.:wink:


UMM,there are already gun seasons takingaway part of the archery season,it's not too far of a stretch that more could follow. Especially with gun hunters being pissed that bowhunters had another record buck kill last year. Remember it was just a few months ago that the big push was to cut archery season early and open gun season early.


----------



## sconibowhntr

if your so worried about the gun season taking over the archery season then you're writing about the wrong thing. this should be about that instead of crossbows. Let me ask a question why did the DNR impliment t-zone/herd control season during archery?


----------



## rutnstrut

sconibowhntr said:


> if your so worried about the gun season taking over the archery season then you're writing about the wrong thing. this should be about that instead of crossbows. Let me ask a question why did the DNR impliment t-zone/herd control season during archery?


I know the actual answer to this,do you? The early T-Zone hunts were/are at that time because the majority that hunt this season wanted it when the weather was nicer. The majority being gun hunters of which I am also,but do not participate in the T-zone hunts.


----------



## crazy4hunting

bowhuntermn said:


> The "lower number" of deer in WI has nothing to do with crossbows, but rather the poor calculations of the DNR. Who took lessons from the MN DNR on how to count.


you can keep your bad counting methods to your own state, thank you very much. lol.


----------



## bowhuntermn

crazy4hunting said:


> you can keep your bad counting methods to your own state, thank you very much. lol.


Oh for MN it get's even better. They published a story about the "low deer harvest" for this past fall and make it out to be that's how they "planned it". They are some serious tards I tell ya....

:wink:


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> UMM,there are already gun seasons takingaway part of the archery season,it's not too far of a stretch that more could follow. Especially with gun hunters being pissed that bowhunters had another record buck kill last year. Remember it was just a few months ago that the big push was to cut archery season early and open gun season early.



*WOW!!*

You act like there are no deer left in Wisconsin and now you tell us that the bowhunters set a new record. What is it?

Want to keep guns out of the archery season? Grow the number of archers. How do you do that? Accept crossbowers. Strength in numbers... especially in Wisconsin where kangeroo voting is done on hunting proposals.

Easy, eh?


----------



## MarkalMod

rutnstrut said:


> *I am not talking about banning anything,there is ample opportunity to use a crossbow in Wi if you need one. *Where will it stop,soon those that have trouble using a vert bow or crossbow will want to use guns in archery season. Maybe there are those that want to use a laser sight on their bows/guns,but no one is complaining about that. One of the toughest things about bowhunting is getting drawn on game or holding for awhile if you have to. These challenges are eliminated with a crossbow,am I being a bit emotional,maybe. But I tend to get emotional about the things I am passionate about.


but apparently you are the decider on "needs one"....

looked to me like they wanted to drop the age to 55, that's hardly bringing the x-bow home to teenagers and I know a lot of folks in their 40s and especially 50s starting to hang up their bows. I'd rather they could stay out there.

There's few enough of us as a whole already


----------



## MarkalMod

rutnstrut said:


> I guess 26 years of bowhunting/hunting is not much experience,I have some damn nice bucks to my credit with a bow. But I can think of many more kills I would have if I just had to lean the "weapon" on a shooting rail,aim,and pull the trigger. Yeah that's no easier than using a vertical bow. I also love the "tact" of the pro crossbow crowd on this thread that have resorted to personal attacks,maybe YOU should consider PETA.


try shooting a crossbow.....since you have 26 years I'm sure you are highly accurate with your peeped compound. I suspect you will find very quickly that you can hold a tighter group farther out with your compound than with a commercial crossbow.


hmmmm, maybe we need to ban compounds, or peeps, if the argument is really about "unfair advantages" and these make you more accurate than the crossbower you're so worried about


----------



## 45er

*I finally came around on this one..........*

...........years ago I vehemently opposed crossbow hunting in Texas. My rationale was that it made poaching at night so much easier as these weapons could be silently fired from a vehicle. The more I learned and thought about it, the more ludicrous that position became to me. The deer is going to probably run after being hit and to find the animal, the poacher is going to have to expose himself by using lights and being away from the vehicle anyway, so is the crossbow that much of an advantage? No.

I also realized that as several folks here have said, I hang all kinds of "junk" on my compound to make it more accurate and easy to shoot, and I'm going to knock crossbow people? C'mon! Until I'm ready to use "real archery equipment" again, with no sights or anything, I felt I wasn't in position to criticize.

I see the same parallels in the evolution of muzzleloaders. Thirty years ago, a good muzzleloader was accurate out to about 100 yards. Today's muzzleloaders, with scopes and such, can shoot accurately to 250 yards, making them not much less effective than centerfire rifles. Now, do we try to ban these folks? Do we tell them they don't deserve their own season to hunt big game? Heck, I don't think deer populations are suffering because of these modern muzzleloaders, are they?

Bottom line is just as has been said by many here on this thread -* HUNTERS NEED TO STICK TOGETHER, NOT BECOME DIVISIVE! HANG TOGETHER OR JUST HANG!*

45er


----------



## willie

From last night's statewide Conservation Congress hearings.

Question 86: Lower Crossbow Eligibility from 65 to Age 55:

In favor: 2,014 (53.3%)

Opposed: 1,767 (46.7%)


----------



## lynxms17

Mach4 said:


> I have no problem with full inclusion and I don't see it ruining the sport. I think it will only help to recruit more youth to the sport and allow more aging hunters to hunt longer.
> 
> I got into bow hunting after gun hunting and muzzle loader hunting. I found that *I enjoyed hunting so much that I wanted to spend more time in the woods* and bow hunting and archery was the best way to do it. Crossbows will only help recruit more people to our sport. If xbows become legal for everyone you will not see every gunhunter buying a xbow and spending 30 days in the woods each fall. Some may try it, but most of those guys are only good for a few hours one week per year. In the end you are either a bow hunter or you are not. *Having an xbow will not magically give someone the dedication to or the enjoyment from bowhunting that a vertical bow will not.* Crossbows may allow some bowhunters to start earlier in life or hunt later in life which is a great thing. Like it or not we are all bowhunters.


Two very good points here.

What one individual views as hunting differs from another. In my opinion, hunting is being out in the woods in pursuit of game. Adding crossbows as a choice, or option, during archery season isn't going to put that many more true hunters out in the woods. I'm sure the first few years we would see a slight increase but I bet that as these new people find that it takes commitment and more than an "opening weekend sit on Sat/drive on Sun" mentality ... you'll be able to find crossbow deals on craigslist. 

More hunters mean more voices. More voices mean more results.


----------



## OneArmArrowSlinger

they are not crossguns, they are crossbows. crossbows have LONG been considered archery, for centuries in fact, much longer than compound bows. As long as they fire an arrow type projectile with a string that is powered by the stored energy of limbs THEY ARE ARCHERY TACKLE, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Put your ego's aside and get over it people. They are more cumbersome, they have a shorter effective range and are louder. Trust me I know b/c I've hunted w/ them plenty of times. How about hunters supporting hunters instead of nitpicking what type of weapon they use, thats the worst thing we can do if we want to keep our traditions alive.


----------



## grizzl

BuckRubnMI said:


> .
> 
> All hypothetical, but I hope you see where I'm going with this.


1 hunter with 3 tags to a licence
2 months to hunt with Modern Weapon (# of tags used? 1-2?)
5 Months to hunt with Modern Weapon (Tag out?)

It can be just a transplanted hunter with more time to harvest.

*That is why I said Antler Restrictions and reduced Tags would need to be adopted (which I am FOR since I don't hunt for Qty)*

Also, the increased demand WILL cost you money in Lease $$

Would ALL HUNTERS Gun/Muzzle/Xbow/Archery agree to a lower harvest per hunter to compensate for higher take?

Again, I am SPECIFICALLY targeting PUBLIC Resources. Private Land is NOT an issure to me.

In Florida, The public Land is administered differently than private land. I totally agree with that concept.


Lastly, Archers CREATED Clubs/Federations/Alliances with DNR to *GET* the Archery Season. The XBOW lobby has totally ignored these federations and BOUGHT the DNR and Gov't for FULL inclusion. Thats why I think you see the resistance in Older Archery Clubs. Its a BEND OVER AND TAKE IT APPROACH..unfortunatley its working.

I may be p*ssin in the wind but it makes me feel better...they didn't even buy me dinner :tongue:


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> Yes, crossbows are cool to kids. They don't have pre-concieved notions about them. Crossbows *DO* recruit the young who later on can very well take up other forms of archery.
> 
> Here is a breakdown of the Ohio archery harvest for hunters between the ages of 10-21 for the 2007-2008 season:
> 
> Age 10 - 95% crossbow, 5% vertical bow
> 
> Age 11 - 91% crossbow, 9% vertical bow
> 
> Age 12 - 86% crossbow, 14% vertical bow
> 
> Age 13 - 75% crossbow, 25% vertical bow
> 
> Age 14 - 74% crossbow, 26% vertical bow
> 
> Age 15 - 65% crossbow, 35% vertical bow
> 
> Age 16 - 56% crossbow, 44% vertical bow
> 
> Age 17 - 50% crossbow, 50% vertical bow
> 
> Age 18 - 46% crossbow, 54% vertical bow
> 
> Age 19 - 44% crossbow, 56% vertical bow
> 
> Age 20 - 41% crossbow, 59% vertical bow
> 
> Age 21 - 38% crossbow, 62% vertical bow
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I'm afraid that you are right.


Wow..look at the stats..you sure you are not a Xbow Lobbyist? :mg:

FULL DISCLOURE: I don't Sell/Guide/work for Mfg/Own a private Hunting Operation

I know these guys flood the discussion groups...just wondering:wink:


----------



## grizzl

Big Country said:


> grizzl, did you kick up your heels in fear of the sky falling when compound bows came rolling into archery season?:noidea:
> 
> The ease of use, accuracy, and effective range between a trad bow and a compound bow is HUGE.
> 
> The ease of use, accuracy, and effective range between a compound and a crossbow are nil.
> 
> You have "X" number of tags to fill, and you have 2 weapons that use energy stored in limbs and delivered via strings to an arrow......what difference does it make to your hunting enjoyment which type of bow is used?


No I didn't because the concept was the same and I didn't have time to continue to practice instintive shooting so YES CB's are easier and I take my hat off to Trad's because of the skill required.


Your last point is right on "X tags to FILL". How many tag out now and how many more tags will get burned with 3 xtra months EVEN IF NO NEW HUNTERS ARE ADDED. Just an elongated season

My problem isn't so much with XBOW (although I do hold the belief they are not in the "spirit" of archery season) as it is the lack of game mgmt on public land. Lack of accouting/study/management.

I would say allow Xbows if the licence proceeds and better funding went into the management of the public resources. More LEO's in the field, more poacher patrols, more systems like Texas Has for reporting Poaching, Better observation and counting methods, ANTLER restrictions and a Harvest Count that sustains the herd.

You know any proceeds will go into the GENERAL FUND..not to wildlife.

I am NOT afraid that an Xbow'er will get the deer I'm after. Most will shoot the 1st 100 or lesser buck than walks thru..the one I'm after more times than not is 50 yards BEHIND that animal watching...

I "WANT" deer to be allowed to Mature a bit more than 2 years, a QUALITY mangement plan not guesswork and a PLAN to adjust harvest numbers based on REAL KILL statistics...

LOGICALLY...extended seasons for experienced hunters added to a allure of easy use weapons to new hunters HAS to increase KILLS/Wound-Kills.

ON PUBLIC LAND...I want some scientific management NOT guess work.
THAT IS MY #1 Complaint....*my opinion of healthy xbow hunters is my opinion only and is NOT relevant UNLESS you break down the "CONCEPT" of archery season-Drawing on Game as an Artform*

Do as Florida does..I'm OK with it...

Riddle me this? Why is it with the Xbow Lobbyists..its all or nothing?
MONEY....


----------



## grizzl

ndemiter said:


> this is why i think that hunting method doesn't matter, apparantly, what the state needs is a new managment strategy. they should talk with ohio, they have too MANY deer to support and keep raising the limits every year.


EXACTLY..you can't count what you don't LOOK FOR!


----------



## BuckRubnMI

grizzl said:


> 1 hunter with 3 tags to a licence
> 2 months to hunt with Modern Weapon (# of tags used? 1-2?)
> 5 Months to hunt with Modern Weapon (Tag out?)
> 
> It can be just a transplanted hunter with more time to harvest.
> 
> *That is why I said Antler Restrictions and reduced Tags would need to be adopted (which I am FOR since I don't hunt for Qty)*
> 
> Also, the increased demand WILL cost you money in Lease $$
> 
> Would ALL HUNTERS Gun/Muzzle/Xbow/Archery agree to a lower harvest per hunter to compensate for higher take?
> 
> Again, I am SPECIFICALLY targeting PUBLIC Resources. Private Land is NOT an issure to me.
> 
> In Florida, The public Land is administered differently than private land. I totally agree with that concept.
> 
> 
> Lastly, Archers CREATED Clubs/Federations/Alliances with DNR to *GET* the Archery Season. The XBOW lobby has totally ignored these federations and BOUGHT the DNR and Gov't for FULL inclusion. Thats why I think you see the resistance in Older Archery Clubs. Its a BEND OVER AND TAKE IT APPROACH..unfortunatley its working.
> 
> I may be p*ssin in the wind but it makes me feel better...they didn't even buy me dinner :tongue:


I would agree with you on the APR's and reduced tags in that scenario.

Would all hunters agree to a lower harvest per hunter to compensate? No not at all but I would equate that to greed. That's only my opinion though as I too don't hunt for quantity and am perfectly happy with my one deer a year filling the freezer. Plus I would rather see 30,000 hunters get one deer each than 10,000 hunters shooting three deer each and 20,000 going home empty handed. One of the many reasons I support a one buck rule 

As far as public land, I personnally haven't felt any negative impacts from the x-bow hunters. In fact, I haven't seen one yet. I didn't expect I would either simply because 80% of Michigan is private land and that's where the majority of deer are killed. 

In florida though, I ran across a post on here, maybe it was yours(?) that public land hunting is on a draw type system per game area or something to that degree. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if I interpreted this correctly, I could definitely see where you would feel the impact of full inclusion x-bow hunting and my opinions personnally might change if I were in that situation.


----------



## grizzl

BuckRubnMI said:


> I would agree with you on the APR's and reduced tags in that scenario.
> 
> Would all hunters agree to a lower harvest per hunter to compensate? No not at all but I would equate that to greed. That's only my opinion though as I too don't hunt for quantity and am perfectly happy with my one deer a year filling the freezer. Plus I would rather see 30,000 hunters get one deer each than 10,000 hunters shooting three deer each and 20,000 going home empty handed. One of the many reasons I support a one buck rule
> 
> As far as public land, I personnally haven't felt any negative impacts from the x-bow hunters. In fact, I haven't seen one yet. I didn't expect I would either simply because 80% of Michigan is private land and that's where the majority of deer are killed.
> 
> In florida though, I ran across a post on here, maybe it was yours(?) that public land hunting is on a draw type system per game area or something to that degree. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if I interpreted this correctly, I could definitely see where you would feel the impact of full inclusion x-bow hunting and my opinions personnally might change if I were in that situation.



I think that was posted by "PIZZLE" and that is 100% true. I Love the EARN a Buck Program AND I LOVE THE DMAP/MLD program for deer damage-have a lottery for regular Joes to thin the herd. *Right now on MLD/DMAP ranch hands/friends of owners/ "The selected few" can shoot 50 deer without burning a tag!* Same with For Profit Operations they SELL culls. I say they get tax exemptions for ranch operations..they should give something back to the community by a lottery for culls/thinning and let new hunters have some fun! *NOT HAVE A RANCH HAND SHOOT 50 DOES/CULLS A SEASON*

I am trying to argue for the regular guy...when I sell my place in Texas I'll get on a lease with a Trophy QDM plan and I and my family won't be effected at all from this....

Ya'all just ask yourselves...what If I HAD to hunt Public Land and there was a lottery/quota system for access. You might not get drawn for ANY hunt so you better be prepared to stay home for the season or religated to hunt property that is OVERRUN with hunters and no deer to be seen.


----------



## Doty Bumb

It's not about hunter retention or recruitment. It's all about money for the manufacturers. Always has been and everyone knows it.

I feel sorry for the able bodied people who go afield with a crossbow and actually believe they are bowhunting.


----------



## camoman73

I honestly do not put a crossbow into the archery equation. If you are elderly or disabled yes go for it 100%. I recently had shoulder surgery ,and i could use a crossbow if i wanted to, but i dont not until the day i cant pull back a 40 lb bow will i ever use a crossbow.

Will it increase oportunity ? Yes, but ill bet many who are able bodied that think its going to be a slam dunk using a crossbow will quickly learn,it is not a slam dunk, and they will tire of it.
We here in wisconsin at least i see a huge decline in deer numbers ,and if you shoot more than you can eat You are not a hunter,you are a killer.
I live in the cwd zone, and that disease if bure bull crap.
The only way to get rid of it is so ridiculously unattainable its funny. They would have to remove the dang dirt to get rid of it!
That aint happening.
Public land hunting is rough here to many people not enough deer as of late.


----------



## Hubba

Doty Bumb said:


> It's not about hunter retention or recruitment. It's all about money for the manufacturers. Always has been and everyone knows it.
> 
> I feel sorry for the able bodied people who go afield with a crossbow and actually believe they are bowhunting.


That's funny, I feel sorry for the able bodied people who go afield with a compound bow and actually believe they are bowhunting...:wink:


----------



## Doty Bumb

Hubba said:


> That's funny, I feel sorry for the able bodied people who go afield with a compound bow and actually believe they are bowhunting...:wink:



OK, I will not disagree with you.:rofl:


----------



## willie

grizzl said:


> Wow..look at the stats..you sure you are not a Xbow Lobbyist? :mg:
> 
> FULL DISCLOURE: I don't Sell/Guide/work for Mfg/Own a private Hunting Operation
> 
> I know these guys flood the discussion groups...just wondering:wink:


I am a crossbow ADVOCATE, just as you are an anti-crossbw advocate.

Unlike your side I deal in facts only.

These numbers came straight from the ODNR.

*ALL* facts that I post came straight from the state's DNRs. 

*FULL DISCLOSURE:* I don't Sell/Guide/work for Mfg/Own a private Hunting Operation (and whatever else you want to add.)

I am a long time bowhunter that was "forced" to use a crossbow nine years ago. Before that I was anti-crossbw just like you..only worse. Nothing like a disabling injury to clear one's mind.

It did not take long to determine that crossbows were just like any of the archery equipment I had used in the past. The crossbows was not a magical tool that could get me within 30 yards of a deer.. It did not scout and place stands for me. I was setting up and shooting deer at the same distances that I always did - AND with a sharp pointed stick.


----------



## willie

Doty Bumb said:


> It's not about hunter retention or recruitment. It's all about money for the manufacturers. Always has been and everyone knows it.



*PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE....* Post documented evidence of that statement.


----------



## willie

Doty Bumb said:


> I feel sorry for the able bodied people who go afield with a crossbow and actually believe they are bowhunting.



Yeah, we are *REALLY* concerned what you "feel".. :wink:


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> I am a crossbow ADVOCATE, just as you are an anti-crossbw advocate.
> 
> Unlike your side I deal in facts only.
> 
> These numbers came straight from the ODNR.
> 
> *ALL* facts that I post came straight from the state's DNRs.
> 
> *FULL DISCLOSURE:* I don't Sell/Guide/work for Mfg/Own a private Hunting Operation (and whatever else you want to add.)
> 
> I am a long time bowhunter that was "forced" to use a crossbow nine years ago. Before that I was anti-crossbw just like you..only worse. Nothing like a disabling injury to clear one's mind.
> 
> It did not take long to determine that crossbows were just like any of the archery equipment I had used in the past. The crossbows was not a magical tool that could get me within 30 yards of a deer.. It did not scout and place stands for me. I was setting up and shooting deer at the same distances that I always did - AND with a sharp pointed stick.



Again, Xbows for medical 100% behind even 55 yrs + OK

I am concerned on over harvesting......need some balance/accountability.

If you are an experiened gun hunter..know how to scout..can get close...and you get an extra 3 months to hunt....chances are you'll be more successful. So who needs 3-4 deer a year?

*Is hunting a Subsistence necessity or a sport?* That might be the question to ask.


Would you be willing to limit tags to go with an extended season?


----------



## MarkalMod

Hubba said:


> That's funny, I feel sorry for the able bodied people who go afield with a compound bow and actually believe they are bowhunting...:wink:


funny, I thought about the same.



I feel just like a Native American hunter every time I whip out mw peep, fiber-optic sight, carbon arrows, and 82nd; makes me proud to stand there all primitive and stuff doing it exactly like early man did with their laminates and 80% letoff :zip:


----------



## Rothhar1

I honestly believe until the anti cross bow crowd need to only hunt /shoot/and carry a traditional bow recurve or long bow with only a glove or tab with no rest or site ! They get real real good with it. As in hunting distance that they can shoot their modern compound at now after shooting thousands and thousands of hours and arrows before they have any right to bash any cross bow user since both bows with all the bells and whistles fit either and make them just as formidable and easy to shoot !

Don't like it tuff it is what it is and compounds are as easy to teach and shoot as any xbow once sited in. If you are having trouble shooting a modern compound and do not have a physical problem that limits them then they need lower poundage ,more practice with maybe a archery coach ,or have a top notch bow mech set your compound up for you with the correct arrows and tip weight for the pounds you shoot ,an then leave your hands off it and shoot it only.

Get wher this is going !!??? I hope so because modern compounds technicly are not true traditional archery gear that all bow seasons were set up on they were add to the current list of approved archery gear just as xbows are now being added. The days of only stick and string were not that long ago and I bet there are a few members here that remember the compound vs trad guys for seasonal incluesion. :wink::wink:


----------



## Doty Bumb

willie said:


> Yeah, we are *REALLY* concerned what you "feel".. :wink:


Ya, I can feel the love.ukey:

Tell ya what. When you can get that crossbow to full draw while in the immediate presence of the animal you are hunting instead of when you step in the woods I will consider that bowhunting. Up to the challenge?:wink:


----------



## willie

grizzl said:


> Again, Xbows for medical 100% behind even 55 yrs + OK
> 
> I am concerned on over harvesting......need some balance/accountability.
> 
> If you are an experiened gun hunter..know how to scout..can get close...and you get an extra 3 months to hunt....chances are you'll be more successful. So who needs 3-4 deer a year?
> 
> *Is hunting a Subsistence necessity or a sport?* That might be the question to ask.
> 
> 
> Would you be willing to limit tags to go with an extended season?


Show us just one instance in any state where overharvesting due to crossbws has a occured.

Hunting is a recreational activity..


----------



## willie

Originally Posted by willie 
Yeah, we are REALLY concerned what you "feel".. 




Doty Bumb said:


> Ya, I can feel the love.ukey:
> 
> Tell ya what. When you can get that crossbow to full draw while in the immediate presence of the animal you are hunting instead of when you step in the woods I will consider that bowhunting. Up to the challenge?:wink:


One more ime. I do not care in the least what you consider to be bowhunting.

Maybe one day you'll learn when to draw and when not to draw your bow. It is a learned trechnique you know..


----------



## Rothhar1

willie said:


> Show us just one instance in any state where overharvesting due to crossbws has a occured.
> 
> Hunting is a recreational activity..


Ditto !! But Willie not one person here can ever show that statistic because it has never happend and it has been thoughroly fallowed and catalogged since the first cross bow deer fell decades ago!!:wink:

This is where the argument comes to a halt for the doomsday cross gunners !


----------



## Rothhar1

willie said:


> Originally Posted by willie
> Yeah, we are REALLY concerned what you "feel"..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more ime. I do not care in the least what you consider to be bowhunting.
> 
> Maybe one day you'll learn when to draw and when not to draw your bow. It is a learned technique you know..


It don't matter if he does or not because doty here is pulling a high let off compound with all the newest latest greatest equipment on it with a top of the line release and is holding back about 10 pounds at full draw .. Tell me I am wrong and I will go away!


----------



## Doty Bumb

willie said:


> Originally Posted by willie
> Yeah, we are REALLY concerned what you "feel"..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more ime. I do not care in the least what you consider to be bowhunting.
> 
> Maybe one day you'll learn when to draw and when not to draw your bow. It is a learned trechnique you know..


So you are not up to the challenge? 

Shouldernuke! You are 100% wrong, go away.:archery:


----------



## willie

Doty Bumb said:


> So you are not up to the challenge?
> 
> Shouldernuke! You are 100% wrong, go away.:archery:



*LOL...*I've done done it.

I recocked my crossbow in the stand after shooting a buck while a younger buck and doe just stood there at 30 yards.

Slow and easy does it every time. 


Shouldernuke!,

It is a free country...so far. Post what you want.


----------



## Rothhar1

Doty Bumb said:


> So you are not up to the challenge?
> 
> Shouldernuke! You are 100% wrong, go away.:archery:


+
I am 100% right and you know it .I to have coocked a xbow in the pessance of game as well! in a tree stand none the less !


----------



## Doty Bumb

willie said:


> *LOL...*I've done done it.
> 
> I recocked my crossbow in the stand after shooting a buck while a younger buck and doe just stood there at 30 yards.
> 
> Slow and easy does it every time. :lie:
> 
> 
> Shouldernuke!,
> 
> It is a free country...so far. Post what you want.


Can you document that feat? I want proof! :flypig: It's not that I don't believe you. We just have to be able to document these things you know.


----------



## willie

Doty Bumb said:


> Can you document that feat? I want proof! :flypig: It's not that I don't believe you. We just have to be able to document these things you know.



LOL.. no, not really. Bowhunting is a solitary sport, don't you know?


----------



## MR Pilsner

So beacasue I hunt with a traditional longbow without sights, wheels, releases etc should I not bash on the compound guys? Following the logic of the OP?

The compound is much easier to hold at full draw, aim, etc?

If crossbows introduces anyone, especially kids into the woods, I'm all for it. Doesn't matter a dime if its in archery season.


----------



## Hubba

Doty Bumb said:


> Ya, I can feel the love.ukey:
> 
> Tell ya what. When you can get that crossbow to full draw while in the immediate presence of the animal you are hunting instead of when you step in the woods I will consider that bowhunting. Up to the challenge?:wink:


Do you have the same disdain for ground blinds that allow you to draw undetected and for the people that use them as you do for crossbows?


----------



## Doty Bumb

Hubba said:


> Do you have the same disdain for ground blinds that allow you to draw undetected and for the people that use them as you do for crossbows?


I see you fellers are not up to the challenge. Too bad. Use your crossbows with the windup thingies and call it a challenge.:greenwithenvy:


----------



## bowgramp59

have no problem with someone using a crossbow , they are legal here in tex. had both shoulders totally replaced. may have to switch one of these days . sure hope not, love my compounds.i think they should do away with rifle hunting from a box blind, that should be fair chase only.[jmo]


----------



## Hubba

Doty Bumb said:


> I see you fellers are not up to the challenge. Too bad. Use your crossbows with the windup thingies and call it a challenge.:greenwithenvy:


You didn't answer the ground blind question.

By the way, I don't use a crossbow. I use one of them easy compounds. I just don't look down my nose at people that do use crossbows. :darkbeer:


----------



## Doty Bumb

Hubba said:


> You didn't answer the ground blind question.
> 
> By the way, I don't use a crossbow. I use one of them easy compounds. I just don't look down my nose at people that do use crossbows. :darkbeer:



Why, does a ground blind help you pull your bow back?:smileinbox:

I don't look down my nose at able bodied people that use a crossbow during bow season. I just feel they are kidding themselves by thinking they are bowhunting.

I know, you don't care. That's OK.


----------



## ravensgait

I don't have a problem with Cross bows but I do have a problem with their excuses for getting into Archery season. Come on there are rules that allow the aged and infirm to use X bows.
Let them have a week or two season of their own at the end of the season . heck Muzzle loaders Etc have their own seasons.

Some say well it will add to the numbers of hunters which is a good thing.. If you are going to hunt you are going to hunt if it means carrying a rifle or shotgun you are going to hunt. 

Archery Season were hard to get, people worked their butts off to get these Primitive Seasons yeah Primitive just how Primitive is the bow you hunt with? Yeah if you carry a Modern Compound with all the goodies it is rather Hypocritical of you to complain about X Bows, you both hunt with what you do because it is easier. I'd have no problem with taking the machine out of archery I'd still be out there in Bow season would you? 

Sure that would cut the numbers of Bow hunters way down but hey you could still hunt with a gun if you really wanted to hunt. Lets have a primitive archery season again and give the machines a week or two somewhere but the rest of the long season to the people who hunt with a bow because it is more of a challenge. Now don't get them all knotted up I have wheel bows but if I'm honest I'd prefer it the way it use to be . Running into another bow hunter happened so very very seldom, if I saw a tree stand it was mine. Didn't have Bow hunters trespassing all over posted property and public land was for the most part as good to hunt as private.

So yeah I'd like to see this sport Primitive again but no I wouldn't want to take what you do away from you. Heck there are to many Wheel bow folks in the woods now whats a few more carrying a different kind of wheel bow. As someone said they have no real advantage over the machine you carry now. Randy


----------



## willie

ravensgait said:


> I don't have a problem with Cross bows but I do have a problem with their excuses for getting into Archery season. Come on there are rules that allow the aged and infirm to use X bows.
> Let them have a week or two season of their own at the end of the season . heck Muzzle loaders Etc have their own seasons.
> 
> Some say well it will add to the numbers of hunters which is a good thing.. If you are going to hunt you are going to hunt if it means carrying a rifle or shotgun you are going to hunt.
> 
> Archery Season were hard to get, people worked their butts off to get these Primitive Seasons yeah Primitive just how Primitive is the bow you hunt with? Yeah if you carry a Modern Compound with all the goodies it is rather Hypocritical of you to complain about X Bows, you both hunt with what you do because it is easier. I'd have no problem with taking the machine out of archery I'd still be out there in Bow season would you?
> 
> Sure that would cut the numbers of Bow hunters way down but hey you could still hunt with a gun if you really wanted to hunt. Lets have a primitive archery season again and give the machines a week or two somewhere but the rest of the long season to the people who hunt with a bow because it is more of a challenge. Now don't get them all knotted up I have wheel bows but if I'm honest I'd prefer it the way it use to be . Running into another bow hunter happened so very very seldom, if I saw a tree stand it was mine. Didn't have Bow hunters trespassing all over posted property and public land was for the most part as good to hunt as private.
> 
> So yeah I'd like to see this sport Primitive again but no I wouldn't want to take what you do away from you. Heck there are to many Wheel bow folks in the woods now whats a few more carrying a different kind of wheel bow. As someone said they have no real advantage over the machine you carry now. Randy



Randy,

I started bowhunting in 1968 BC (before compounds) and *IF* it was still the old stick and string I'd say that crossbws do not belong. 

The advancements in compound technology has opened the door wide to crossbow use..

The line between compounds and crossbows merged a long time ago..


----------



## ryan h

crossbow or compound, I would agree that if you can pull a bow back no problem there is no reason why you can't learn to shoot with a bow like everyone else has. If you are handicapped get your crossbow and make everyone practice.

If I were to make a rule it would be make everyone that wants to hunt take a shooting test and if you passed go hunt I am tired of people not having respect for the animals.
When guys go out hunting and can't hit the broadside of a barn and try to take an animal I wish people would practice and get familiar with there equipment and try to take animals humanely in my opinion


----------



## Main Beam

willie said:


> The line between compounds and crossbows merged a long time ago..


Really? Go tote your agenda somewhere else. This is ARCHERYTALK.com, not GUNBOWTALK.com Bowhunters know and understand the dedication it takes to master their equipment. A gunbow hunter is mearly a shotgun hunter that has just decreased his effective range form 150 yards to 50 yards with the same amount of skill required. Load and shoot is all you have to master with a shotgun and bowgun. The elderly and handicaped deserve to use bowguns........NOT THOSE THAT ARE TOO LAZY TO PUT IN THE TIME!


----------



## Main Beam

Willie I see you posted that it takes one week of practice with a bowgun before you can hunt in this thread http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1196412

This pretty much sums up my post above comparing a bowgun to a shotgun. 

Compound bow and gunbow are not remotely equal!!


----------



## Main Beam

By the way Willie it may be in your best interest to become handy with a compound bow being that you live in Indiana and all. Going to be some GREAT opportunites for the Indiana bowhunters in the future, if you haven't heard yet.:wink:


----------



## willie

Main Beam said:


> Really? Go tote your agenda somewhere else. This is ARCHERYTALK.com, not GUNBOWTALK.com Bowhunters know and understand the dedication it takes to master their equipment. A gunbow hunter is mearly a shotgun hunter that has just decreased his effective range form 150 yards to 50 yards with the same amount of skill required. Load and shoot is all you have to master with a shotgun and bowgun. The elderly and handicaped deserve to use bowguns........NOT THOSE THAT ARE TOO LAZY TO PUT IN THE TIME!



LOL.. shows your total ignorance of crossbows..

They *ARE* archery equipment.

Look and you will even see a forum for them here on ARCHERYTALK.

BTW - what "archery equipment" do you shoot?


----------



## willie

Main Beam said:


> Willie I see you posted that it takes one week of practice with a bowgun before you can hunt in this thread http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1196412
> 
> This pretty much sums up my post above comparing a bowgun to a shotgun.
> 
> Compound bow and gunbow are not remotely equal!!



You mean when Skeptic was wanting to rent or borrow a crossbow for a hunt?


I asked him - 


*When exactly do you need one?

I have two, but my son and myself will be using them on turkeys for the next two weeks for sure.

If he doesn't need it for three weeks (one week of practice before the hunt)we can set it up for him to borrow one of mine.

I live in Southern Indiana so we can meet halfway to make the exchanges.

No charge....

Let me know....*


Yeah, I'd say a week would get him in pretty good shape to crossbow hunt or if a newbie wanted to compound hunt that would be more than enough time too.

The line between the compound and crossbow are so blurred that it doens't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to shoot either one accurately...


----------



## Main Beam

willie said:


> BTW - what "archery equipment" do you shoot?


A little off subject but I'll play- I shot an Iron Mace. The Mace and I will have great years ahead of us now that Indiana has seen the light in deer management thanks to the hard work of many key individuals.:59:


----------



## Shelby

That's all I can say is that there are some very ignorant people discussing this topic. 

Main Beam--- Lazy to put in the time? It's hunting not brain surgery. If someone chooses to hunt with a croosbow rather than a compound are they less than a hunter than you? I really hope you don't believe that.

Doty--- I'll answer the ground blind question for you (jeez, I thought you were this great hunter and would know this answer). I hunt out of groundblinds 50% of the time and it is much easier to draw the bow because you can hide your draw in the blind and then come to the window and shoot, and yes I shoot all open windows, no mesh. So basically I can have my bow at full draw (kind of like a crossbow) when I come to the window to shoot.



A crossbow is a weapon to use in taking game. I have bowhunted with compound for 28 years and have never used a crossbow but the use of a crossbow is just another way to hunt. I really don't see the problem.

The guys that are against it are not making a case (there shouldn't be a case against them anyway) and simply talking out of the wrong end. 

My dad was 40 years old when I started bowhunting (he was a gun hunter) and never picked up a bow so I never got the chance to share time in the woods with him during archery season but if he could have had a chance to pick up a crossbow and come hunt with me I can only dream of the times we could have shared. My dad has since passed away so we never got to share those wonderful and magical times in the woods.

Some of you really need to get a life and just enjoy your time to hunt no matter what legal weapon we all choose to use.


----------



## Main Beam

willie said:


> Yeah, I'd say a week would get him in pretty good shape to crossbow hunt or if a newbie wanted to compound hunt that would be more than enough time too.


ARE YOU SERIOUS!? You are saying a person who has never shot a compound bow would be ready to hunt after one week of practice!? I fully understand your mantality now, thanks. Of course it probably depends on what type of soil they are standing on when they practice (inside joke from a ways back).....LOL!!! 








It has been fun........Woody.​


----------



## willie

Main Beam said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS!? You are saying a person who has never shot a compound bow would be ready to hunt after one week of practice!? I fully understand your mantality now, thanks. Of course it probably depends on what type of soil they are standing on when they practice (inside joke from a ways back).....LOL!!!



*Nah... a compounder wont need a week.. 30 minutes ought to do it.*


From the archives of AT...


*first deer on first hunt *

my cousin (seth) came home with me after school yesterday.he said he wanted to go hunt with me..he had never been bow hunting or shot a bow until about 3:30 yeasterday afternoon.he shot my bow(pse typhoon) for about 30 min.s and could group hit arrows in about a 4inch group at 20 yards so i told him if a spike came out he could shoot at it.well i have my ameristep blind in the edge of a 60 acre wheat field.every time i have been in that blind i see 15+ deer and 10+ within shooting distance.so we loaded up about 4 o clock and took the video camera and tripod and a extra seat(a five gallon bucket)for seth.we got to the blind about 5 and set up the camera and got everything ready.then 3 does came out and ate rite in front of us(i put corn out before we got in the blind at about 15 yards)then 3 more showed up.well they ate for at least 20mins and then started lookin in the brush like something was fixin to come out.then they just meander off down the tree line.i look up and at about 25 yrds a spike is just walkin rite to us. i gave seth the bow as soon as he got the camera and tripod set out of the way. the spike walks rite to us and stands broad side at about 12yrds. seth draws the bow aims and whack he hits the spike it takes off like a striped ass ape and runs about 15yrds stops takes two staggerin steps sideways and falls over DEAD and never gave a twich.well after about five mins he said our 30mins has to be up and then i explained the process of bleeding a deer out no matter how close he falls.(and i wanted to see the bigger buck that i had been trying to kill for about a week)well he shot the spike at about 6 20 less than 2 hours had he spend bow hunting and since it didnt get dark until about 7:15 or so we stayed in the stand about 30 mins after the spike the big buck comes into the field and passes at about 40 yards just a few yards out of range.we he runs does all over the field and then goes to the far side so we crawl out of the tent and film the find of the deer.he shot it with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy BH and a 5575 gold-tip arrow and about 60# he didnt get a pass through but he hit the deer rite in the white spot under the left leg the arrow came out about half way down his ribs and stuck out about 4 inchs or so when the deer had turn to run he broke my arrow smooth off and almost in half when we got the deer home and guted it i took the heart out and he had cut the bottom of the heart with 2 of the 3 blades opening up both of the bigger chambers of the heart..it was one heck of a shot......one of the best shots i have ever seen(and im not tryin to start the whole double lung VS heart shot debate)it was a good shot and even better recovery.we could see the spot where he had laid down in the weeds about 20 yrds for the blind. it was the greatest hunt i have ever taken anyone on and by far the quickest time from the first time to ever shoot a bow to the time you kill your first buck 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer


----------



## willie

Main Beam said:


> A little off subject but I'll play- I shot an Iron Mace. ....



Well, it just never ceases to amaze me that the ones saying “THOSE THAT ARE TOO LAZY TO PUT IN THE TIME!” shoot something that is so easy to shoot and so easy to master. Why did YOU take the easy way out? Why not a stick bow?

PCTKB?

To you, this compound with all the bells and whistles is archery 










and somehow this is not?


----------



## stinkysbuddy6x5

*christmas in april*

hey willie, have you heard christmas is coming early this year in INDIANA? its monday april 19th. better double up on your blood pressure meds, sure would miss the spew that comes out of your mouth.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> To you, this compound with all the bells and whistles is archery
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and somehow this is not?


Willie.........in the pics you put up.........please show us where the "_Cranking Draw System_" is on the bow........please show us the "_steal pin that holds the string back for hours at a time for you_" that is on the bow.............and please show us the "_mounted trigger/saftey switch that is firmly/securley/bolted/attached_" to the bow..............

............just making sure I don't miss anything the next time a walk into an archery shop and ask for those features on a BOW.......since they both have the "*same features*"_..............(cough)........_:wink:


----------



## Main Beam

Scarlet Dew said:


> Willie.........in the pics you put up.........please show us where the "Cranking Draw System" is on the bow........please show us the "steal pin that holds the string back for hours at a time for you" that is on the bow.............and please show us the mounted trigger/saftey switch that is firmly/securley/bolted/attached to the bow..............
> 
> ............just making sure I don't miss anything the next time a walk into an archery shop and ask for those features on a BOW.......since they both have the "same features"_..............(cough)........_:wink:


Don't forget the tripod and tripod mount, you know the EXACT ones that go on shotguns.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

stinkysbuddy6x5 said:


> hey willie, have you heard christmas is coming early this year in INDIANA? its monday april 19th. better double up on your blood pressure meds, sure would miss the spew that comes out of your mouth.


Blood Pressure Meds won't help..............

He better be sitting in the *ER* come Monday morning for the quickest "response time" possible for the docs........would hate to lose our little buddy/toy.


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> Willie.........in the pics you put up.........please show us where the "_Cranking Draw System_" is on the bow........please show us the "_steal pin that holds the string back for hours at a time for you_" that is on the bow.............and please show us the "_mounted trigger/saftey switch that is firmly/securley/bolted/attached_" to the bow..............
> 
> ............just making sure I don't miss anything the next time a walk into an archery shop and ask for those features on a BOW.......since they both have the "*same features*"_..............(cough)........_:wink:


LOL.... Why did I just know that you would show up? First off who are you quoting? You do know that quotation marks are for quoting someone. They are not used to highlight a word.

Where did I mention "features"? I can us a quote because you posted it. :wink: 

I said that they are both archery equipment and they are. You and your buds want to take the easy way to bowhunt and then disparage fellow hunters as being "lazy". 

Like I said PCTKB. 

Question for you - Are you now a sponsor on ArcheryTalk? If not, just a word of advice you'd better remove the clickable link to your site in yiour sig line. The mods get a little irate when they see that here.


----------



## willie

Thanks for your concern fellers but my blood pressure is just fine. 

Last time I had it checked it was 117 over 78.

Cholesterol is 180.

I take no medicines at all. That stuff will kill you.

Fit as a fiddle and I'll be turkey hunting in KY in the morning. Life is good.

Hopefully you all will be able to say the same thing when you get my age.

:wink:


----------



## willie

Main Beam said:


> Don't forget the tripod and tripod mount, you know the EXACT ones that go on shotguns.




You mean like the Knight and Hale "Steady Ready" Steady Rest for bowhunters?

http://www.knightandhale.com/Steady-Ready-Shooting-Rest

*



Arrow Brace and More

For the bowhunter, our "Steady Ready" makes it easy to draw a heavy poundage bow and hold it for minutes at a time because the steady arm absorbs all of the tension. 

The Steady Ready allows you to target your prey with pinpoint accuracy. 

Like any shooting, it takes a little practice to learn to work it correctly. Before you know it, you'll feel comfortable and confident knowing your projectile will fly to the bullseye

Click to expand...

*


----------



## woodDB

some fly fishing guys think they're better then the "bait chucker" crew, some football players think soccer players are wussies, wine vs beer, scotch vs whiskey... seriously, to each his own. thats my take anyway. an elitist mentality only impresses those in the circle, the rest could care less.


----------



## willie

woodDB said:


> some fly fishing guys think they're better then the "bait chucker" crew, some football players think soccer players are wussies, wine vs beer, scotch vs whiskey... seriously, to each his own. thats my take anyway. an elitist mentality only impresses those in the circle, the rest could care less.



Ah, but some folks feel the need to put down others to build themselves up....


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> LOL.... Why did I just know that you would show up? First off who are you quoting? You do know that quotation marks are for quoting someone. They are not used to highlight a word.
> 
> Where did I mention "features"? I can us a quote because you posted it. :wink:
> 
> I said that they are both archery equipment and they are. You and your buds want to take the easy way to bowhunt and then disparage fellow hunters as being "lazy".
> 
> Like I said PCTKB.
> 
> Question for you - Are you now a sponsor on ArcheryTalk? If not, just a word of advice you'd better remove the clickable link to your site in yiour sig line. The mods get a little irate when they see that here.


1) "Thanks" "for" "the" "Engrish Lesson" ......... " :cocktail: " ...."LOL!!" 

2) I guess when you put up the pictures of bows and crossbows that represent "_features_" and "_aspects_" that are suppose to be similar.....*which was your point*..........I thought you'd like to point them out to those that were missing the comparison.......

3) Where did I say/type/elude this......"_You and your buds want to take the easy way to bowhunt and then disparage fellow hunters as being "lazy_"..........I'll help you......*NOWHERE*!! Don't misquote me like some _slithery snake _with some _slimey agenda_. That's what has got you kicked off *TWO* Indiana Hunting sites within the last 12 months. Would hate to see the same thing happen to you in the few places you have left to post.....like here.

Now............where were we...............

.........Oh, I remember.............we were about to believe you had low blood pressure about all this crossbow stuff....but had to make _3 posts in a row _to convince us of that......*LOL!!!* :darkbeer:


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> Ah, but some folks feel the need to put down others to build themselves up....


All the while those that *LIE* about what someone did or *DID NOT *post.............

.........try to keep themselves credible. _Phhhhhhttt!!_


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> You mean like the Knight and Hale "Steady Ready" Steady Rest for bowhunters?
> 
> http://www.knightandhale.com/Steady-Ready-Shooting-Rest


What??!?! You helped Main Beam out and not me??? :mg: Here.........I'll give you a second chance man.......help me/us out..........



Scarlet Dew said:


> Willie.........in the pics you put up.........please show us where the "_Cranking Draw System_" is on the bow........please show us the "_steal pin that holds the string back for hours at a time for you_" that is on the bow.............and please show us the "_mounted trigger/saftey switch that is firmly/securley/bolted/attached_" to the bow..............


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> 1) "Thanks" "for" "the" "Engrish Lesson" ......... " :cocktail: " ...."LOL!!"
> 
> 
> * I thought that you would appreciate it. Improper English makes a person look bad and I know that you aren't.*
> 
> 2) I guess when you put up the pictures of bows and crossbows that represent "_features_" and "_aspects_" that are suppose to be similar.....*which was your point*..........I thought you'd like to point them out to those that were missing the comparison.......
> 
> *" Similar"? I said that they were both pieces of archery equipment. Different in some ways and alike in others. Just like a compound bears very little resemblance to a recurve or a longbow. The recurves, longbows and compounds all have limbs and strings, but that is about it.*
> 
> 3) Where did I say this......"_You and your buds want to take the easy way to bowhunt and then disparage fellow hunters as being "lazy_"..........I'll help you......*NOWHERE*!! Don't misquote me like some _slithery snake _with some _slimey agenda_.
> 
> *OK, I'll retract "you" and leave in "your buds". Hows that?
> 
> Now here you go making personal name calling attacks again. You know where that leads don't you? *
> 
> That's what has got you kicked off *TWO* Indiana Hunting sites within the last 12 months. Would hate to see the same thing happen to you in the few places you have left to post.....like here.
> 
> *Really?
> 
> I dont recall that at all. I dropped out of a little group as I had no interest there. I still belong to four others.*
> 
> Now............where were we...............
> 
> .........Oh, I remember.............we were about to believe you had low blood pressure about all this crossbow stuff....but had to make 3 posts in a row to convince us of that......*LOL!!!* :darkbeer:
> 
> *LOL...I have low blood pressure about everything. Very little gets me rattled, but you are welcome to keep trying. :wink: *


.......................


----------



## Rothhar1

Scarlet Dew said:


> Blood Pressure Meds won't help..............
> 
> He better be sitting in the *ER* come Monday morning for the quickest "response time" possible for the docs........would hate to lose our little buddy/toy.


I do not know you but if you think that any part of modern compound bow hunting is any harder than a xbow then you are truly deluded.


----------



## Rothhar1

Main Beam said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS!? You are saying a person who has never shot a compound bow would be ready to hunt after one week of practice!? I fully understand your mantality now, thanks. Of course it probably depends on what type of soil they are standing on when they practice (inside joke from a ways back).....LOL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has been fun........Woody.​


Yip it took 2 hrs for one of my buds to hit well out to 40 yards ,and two days later on his first hunt 1.5 whole hrs on stand not a blind took a buck at 23 yerds with a virtually perfect double lung hit and he then reapeated the fallowing year .


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Shouldernuke! said:


> I do not know you but if you think that any part of modern compound bow hunting is any harder than a xbow then you are truly deluded.


What did *I* post that made you feel that is my position.............?


----------



## Rothhar1

Scarlet Dew said:


> What did *I* post that made you feel that is my position.............?


Your fallowing posts and and the the tone is what led me to this conclusion also the fact it seemed that you were part of the dog pile on a person that is defending a person who is pro hunting with xbows.


----------



## grizzl

willie said:


> Show us just one instance in any state where overharvesting due to crossbws has a occured.
> 
> *Hunting is a recreational activity*..


*What a dodge * Counld't deal with the logic..huh

VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS- MAKE THEM PAY


----------



## ranger774

Have I ever hunted with a crossbow? No. Do I think they should be banned from hunting? If we do, maybe we should also ban compound bows, they are too easy to hold at full draw. Maybe we should ban recurves, they just shoot to well and are short and easy to handle. Ban them all except the long bow to make it harder. Maybe ban bows and just allow spears and clubs. Who is with me on this? Come on folks there is room in the archery world for all types of bows, including crossbows.


----------



## eyebrowcounter

rutnstrut said:


> Once again the loudest voices for are NOT from our state. Perhaps that's because most of you have already had the crossguns forced on you. So now you figure everyone else should have it forced upon them.


Well unfortunately, as we have already found out and you too will SOON find out as well. If the powers that be want it no matter how loudly you all scream, kick,scratch,and sign petitions it WILL be... Sorry bout that.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Shouldernuke! said:


> Your fallowing posts and and the the tone is what led me to this conclusion also the fact it seemed that you were part of the dog pile on a person that is defending a person who is pro hunting with xbows.


Well that's not the case.........

I in fact own a crossbow and use it.........I love the little critter.........I get to use it during crossbow/late season here in Indiana. But as an owner of a Bow *and* a Crossbow..........there are some HUGE features of each that do not even CLOSELY make them comparible weapons. That was the point I was making. Love my crossbow...........Love my bow.........and willing to acknowledge they are ENTIRELY different beasts.

No hate here for crossbows..............just tremendous concern when they are "spun by others" as a "_compatible archery class_" of weaponry as a long bow......which is as *false* as it gets!! Their advantage differences are TREMENDOUS.


----------



## 25ft-up

Now I get it! It would be like me saying a single shot centerfire cartridge rifle is just like a muzzleloader and just as hard to hunt with because it shoots one bullet. Then convince the state they can get more hunters to buy licenses if they make it legal. The state of course cannot admit they were wrong for making this illegal for the past 50 years(because they weren't), and that they were wrong for saying there not a bow. But they need the money, so they get the people who want it, to push for it. Then pass it.
Even worse is saying a rifle stock with a fixed trigger mechanism that holds back a projectile at full cock(hopefully with a safety, same as a gun, so you don't shoot the guy in front of you) and a full scope(use to be illegal even on guns here), is not a gun and should be legal during bow season. The states haven't been wrong all these years. It's not about whether or not more deer will be killed. States want to keep the #s low. Technology and ethics keep changing and so do the laws. Sorry to say, but it's not going to stop. 
Those who want it can't expect everyone to agree. I'm all for the handicapped and 55+. I'm 55 and they're legal here. I couldn't pull back my old 65-80#bow this year. I chose to buy a new bow set at 61# that's a lot faster and smoother and start shooting everyday again to build up muscle instead of buying a crossbow, because to me they are a sign of weakness. 
I'm not saying you're weak because you shoot one. I'm saying I would feel weak minded if I did. I walk too much to carry one of those big things around, anyway. You'll never convince me they're as difficult to hunt with as a bow(unless you walk a lot). Next time your sitting back against a tree with your elbows propped up on your knees- stock in hand- sighting through the 4x scope- holding the crosshairs on that monster buck approaching from 100yds- finger on the trigger,.... think of what you would be doing if you had a bow. Do you feel any different then if you were holding a gun?


----------



## granny

bowhuntermn said:


> My response to you wasn't an attack, but rather a question. I simply asked that as long as the ''rules" follow your wishes they are okay at least by your response. So, you like to hunt with a compound, big deal no problems. But you are all against crossbows which I find hard to understand. Hunting is hunting and as long as it's legal, who cares what you hunt with.


we have laws for people to hunt with x-bows if they can't with a B&A.

Ok to me or not, I have to follow the laws.
My hunting with a compound should be no “big deal” because it is legal.
I never said I was against all x-bows.


----------



## willie

> Originally Posted by willie
> Show us just one instance in any state where overharvesting due to crossbws has a occured.
> 
> Hunting is a recreational activity..






grizzl said:


> *What a dodge * Counld't deal with the logic..huh
> 
> VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS- MAKE THEM PAY



Not dodging at all. Hunting is a recreational activity..

NOW - Don't you dodge - Show us just one instance in any state where overharvesting due to crossbws has a occured.


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> Well that's not the case.........
> 
> I in fact own a crossbow and use it.........I love the little critter.........I get to use it during crossbow/late season here in Indiana. But as an owner of a Bow *and* a Crossbow..........there are some HUGE features of each that do not even CLOSELY make them comparible weapons. That was the point I was making. Love my crossbow...........Love my bow.........and willing to acknowledge they are ENTIRELY different beasts.
> 
> No hate here for crossbows..............just tremendous concern when they are "spun by others" as a "_compatible archery class_" of weaponry as a long bow......which is as *false* as it gets!! Their advantage differences are TREMENDOUS.


Glad to see that you admit that the crossbow is archery equipment..different from the other, but still archery equipment.

*PARAPHRASING *- " No hate here for COMPOUNDS..............just tremendous concern when they are "spun by others" as a "_compatible archery class_" of weaponry as a long bow......which is as *false* as it gets!! Their advantage differences are TREMENDOUS. "

But compounds are still archery equipment...


----------



## Big Country

willie said:


> Not dodging at all. Hunting is a recreational activity..
> 
> *NOW - Don't you dodge - Show us just one instance in any state where overharvesting due to crossbws has a occured*.



Your honor........leading the witness!

Willie, you know darn well that he cannot answer that question without messing up his stance.:wink:

Crossbow inclusion has not caused the sky to fall in any state.

While crossbows do have some minor advantages, they do not outweigh the minor advantages a top end compound bow offers.

In the end, it is simply another piece of archery equipment that can be used to launch an arrow at similar velocity and KE.

For some hunters, the crossbow may offer a slight advantage.....

For other hunters, me included, it would be taking a step backwards.....

I will stay with my vertical bows for hunting, and I will continue to support my fellow hunters right to use a crossbow if they wish......where it is legal of course.

My life is not negatively affected if you use a crossbow to fill your tag.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> Glad to see that you admit that the crossbow is archery equipment..different from the other, but still archery equipment.
> 
> *PARAPHRASING *- " No hate here for COMPOUNDS..............just tremendous concern when they are "spun by others" as a "_compatible archery class_" of weaponry as a long bow......which is as *false* as it gets!! Their advantage differences are TREMENDOUS.


Nope...........didn't spin it that way.................*YOU* did. That's why *YOU* had to "*PARAPHRASE*" it to make it read like you wanted to spin it...........

.............*LOL!!!* 

_Next attempted trick _ please..........:darkbeer:


----------



## One eye

Okay, let's try this one more time for those of you who went to Government schools.

Archery = drawing the bow with your physical strength in the presence of the game animal, UNDETECTED!

Crossbow/gun = point and shoot a preloaded projectile

If you do not see the difference, it's because you do not WANT to see the difference. As I have stated many times, I have nothing against the crossbow as a WEAPON! BUT, I take serious exception to anyone calling it ARCHERY!

Grow up and simply admit that you want your hunting to be easier and do not want to invest the time required with archery equipment.

Dan


----------



## grizzl

*What Part of Point and Shoot do you NOT get*

This is amazing....not even allowing that Point and Shoot = Easier and as a consequence more shots get taken and as a consequence more animals hit.....recovered or not..POINT AND SHOOT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE.

And my DATA is 45 years of hunting and taking hunting notes and associating with some VERY GOOD ARCHERS (Verical Bow Hunters) 

I'VE ALREADY SHOWED A 15% KILL INCREASE ON THE VA website--Add another 15% for wounds/Unrecovered.

OK..show me the numbers that harvest numbers HAVE NOT INCREASED??? In any state? What a joke

VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS


----------



## grizzl

Big Country said:


> My life is not negatively affected if you use a crossbow to fill your tag.


Yea..you got the cash to hunt private/guided/out of state/choose your venue. How about the less fortunate. See...thats the attitude..if it don't affect me..ya don't care.

*VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS- 
GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


----------



## popestev

grizzl said:


> Yea..you got the cash to hunt private/guided/out of state/choose your venue. How about the less fortunate. See...thats the attitude..if it don't affect me..ya don't care.
> 
> *VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS-
> GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


I agree with big country, and I hunt public land. We have bigger things to worry about like whether or not the wolves are going to leave us any elk to eat for ourselves.


----------



## Big Country

One eye said:


> Okay, let's try this one more time for those of you who went to Government schools.
> 
> Archery = drawing the bow with your physical strength in the presence of the game animal, UNDETECTED!
> 
> Crossbow/gun = point and shoot a preloaded projectile
> 
> If you do not see the difference, it's because you do not WANT to see the difference. As I have stated many times, I have nothing against the crossbow as a WEAPON! BUT, I take serious exception to anyone calling it ARCHERY!
> 
> Grow up and simply admit that you want your hunting to be easier and do not want to invest the time required with archery equipment.
> 
> Dan


Many archery orgs call crossbows archery.

Of course there are differences between the weapons. 

The steps it takes to fire a crossbow and a compound are different for sure.

The end result is basically the same.

It is easier to become marginally proficient with a crossbow than a compound......

Compounds are more accurate, but not enough to bother with in regards to hunting.

Crossbows are loud, unbalanced, and awkward to handle in comparison.

Performance of crossbows and top end compounds are very close.....close enough to make it a non-issue.

You can bench a crossbow if you are in a stand and the deer cooperates. There are similar products that allow pretty much the same thing for compounds if you want to get them.

You can shoot 360 degrees out of your stand with a vertical bow......not so with a crossbow.

The single biggest talking point for the anti-crossbow crowd is the drawing in the presence of game......it is virtually negated when using a blind, and it is somewhat negated when being elevated. And drawing in the presence of game is merely another hunting skill to be learned. You do not have to draw a crossbow in the presence of game, but you do have to point it at the animal........horizontal limb configuration is much easier to spot than vertical in many cases.

Drawing on game is simply not that big of a deal.

Which brings us to the truth regarding the anti crossbow crowd........you simply do not want to share the timber with any more hunters.:embara:

The overall difference between a crossbow and a compound as it relates to hunting is minimal, and for a healthy adult, I give the edge to the compound........that is why I use them myself.

If you want to discuss a ridiculously unfair jump in ease of use, let us discuss the move from traditional bows to the modern day compound bow.

Go to ANY national archery target tournament and witness trad bow winning scores WAY behind crossbow winning scores.

And crossbow winning scores are ALWAYS well behind compound scores.:darkbeer:

The bottom line is that the inclusion of the crossbow in any states archery season has hurt nothing........nothing but the pride of the members of our hunting community that wish to keep others out of their game.


----------



## Big Country

grizzl said:


> Yea..you got the cash to hunt private/guided/out of state/choose your venue. How about the less fortunate. See...thats the attitude..if it don't affect me..ya don't care.
> 
> *VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS-
> GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


So what you are telling me is that crossbows hurt the less fortunate? Seriously?

Can you provide any data from states that have already included crossbows in archery seasons that would substantiate your claims that they harm the "less fortunate"?

I already know the answer, but it is only fair to give you the opportunity to defend your ridiculous claim.


----------



## popestev

Big Country said:


> Many archery orgs call crossbows archery.
> 
> Of course there are differences between the weapons.
> 
> The steps it takes to fire a crossbow and a compound are different for sure.
> 
> The end result is basically the same.
> 
> It is easier to become marginally proficient with a crossbow than a compound......
> 
> Compounds are more accurate, but not enough to bother with in regards to hunting.
> 
> Crossbows are loud, unbalanced, and awkward to handle in comparison.
> 
> Performance of crossbows and top end compounds are very close.....close enough to make it a non-issue.
> 
> You can bench a crossbow if you are in a stand and the deer cooperates. There are similar products that allow pretty much the same thing for compounds if you want to get them.
> 
> You can shoot 360 degrees out of your stand with a vertical bow......not so with a crossbow.
> 
> The single biggest talking point for the anti-crossbow crowd is the drawing in the presence of game......it is virtually negated when using a blind, and it is somewhat negated when being elevated. And drawing in the presence of game is merely another hunting skill to be learned. You do not have to draw a crossbow in the presence of game, but you do have to point it at the animal........horizontal limb configuration is much easier to spot than vertical in many cases.
> 
> Drawing on game is simply not that big of a deal.
> 
> Which brings us to the truth regarding the anti crossbow crowd........you simply do not want to share the timber with any more hunters.:embara:
> 
> The overall difference between a crossbow and a compound as it relates to hunting is minimal, and for a healthy adult, I give the edge to the compound........that is why I use them myself.
> 
> If you want to discuss a ridiculously unfair jump in ease of use, let us discuss the move from traditional bows to the modern day compound bow.
> 
> Go to ANY national archery target tournament and witness trad bow winning scores WAY behind crossbow winning scores.
> 
> And crossbow winning scores are ALWAYS well behind compound scores.:darkbeer:
> 
> The bottom line is that the inclusion of the crossbow in any states archery season has hurt nothing........nothing but the pride of the members of our hunting community that wish to keep others out of their game.


Could not have said it better my self


----------



## wisconbowonly

Everyone is talking about how a crossbow makes hunting so much easier.Since when did a crossbow attract deer to your stand?

Sure, the action of taking a shoot is easier but hunting is only about 1% shooting at animals .The rest of the time is waiting ,stalking ,scouting,planning,ect,ect,ect.

The simple fact of having a crossbow with you while hunting is not going to make deer magically appear in front of you.A crossbow will not lead you to the perfect spot to sit and wait for deer to show up. A crossbow will not stop the rain or wind. A crossbow will not keep you warm on late season hunts.

You know what ? neither will any other kind of bow do any of those things.

No matter what type of weapon you use there are so many other factors that go into hunting that need to happen long before the shot is even taken.If you put your time in and do everything the right way and get a little lucky and have the chance to take an animal that you are hunting does it really matter what type of weapon you use to do it?

A good hunting story can be told without knowing what weapon was used and still be a good story.


----------



## grizzl

wisconbowonly said:


> Everyone is talking about how a crossbow makes hunting so much easier.Since when did a crossbow attract deer to your stand?
> 
> Sure, the action of taking a shoot is easier but hunting is only about 1% shooting at animals .The rest of the time is waiting ,stalking ,scouting,planning,ect,ect,ect..


*Bow*
1) Anticipate Approach and timing of shot as deer approaches (x) shoot distance
2) With awareness of a deer's ability to percieve Movement you WAIT to *DRAW with calulations as to how LONG YOU CAN HOLD AT FULL DRAW* at the BEST TIME ALILGN PINS TO PEEP and Execute a PRACTICED RELEASE ! (HOW MANY DEER ESCAPE BECAUSE OF THIS ABILITY? Thats more than 1% of the KILLING Work share)
3) Execute the shot

*Xbow*
1) Anticipate Approach and timing of shot as deer approaches (x) shoot distance
2) Shoulder the weapon when the deer is 100 yards away,look through scope and *hold on target as long as you want*with finger on trigger.....NO MOVEMENT AT ALL..
3) Final (minimal point) and punch trigger.

No back tension release..no anchor point..no bending at waiste..NO MECHANICS of the SHOT

POINT AND SHOOT WITH NO STRAIN,NO MOVEMENT


*NO XBOWS ON PUBILC LAND DURING ARCHERY SEASON!*

*AND IF YOU ARE GOOD AS YOU SAY AT LOCATING DEER-YOUR KILL #'s will go UP beacuse of an elongated season======MORE DEER KILLED *Question: DOES THE DNR FACTOR THAT INTO HERD MGMT ON PUBLIC LAND..NO


*VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS- 
GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


----------



## grizzl

Big Country said:


> So what you are telling me is that crossbows hurt the less fortunate? Seriously?
> 
> I already know the answer


YUP. Those hunters who HAVE to hunt PUBLIC LAND because they can't afford leases/outfitters or own own land :wink: 

I already know the answer too! As does EVERYONE who hunts public land...

*VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS- 
GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


----------



## grizzl

popestev said:


> I agree with big country, and I hunt public land. We have bigger things to worry about like whether or not the wolves are going to leave us any elk to eat for ourselves.


We don't have Wolves back east so if I take Big Country's thought process=It don't affect me so I don't object to wolves doing what wolves do 

See how it works


----------



## Big Country

grizzl said:


> YUP. Those hunters who HAVE to hunt PUBLIC LAND because they can't afford leases/outfitters or own own land :wink:
> 
> I already know the answer too! As does EVERYONE who hunts public land...
> 
> *VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS-
> GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


Allow me to address both of your recent posts here.......

Obviously, you have not handled a crossbow...... You will NOT shoulder one and hold it for an extended period of time unless you have a solid rest for support. They are HEAVY. And that weight is being held out in front of you.

Now, to your public land assertion..........

1. I have hunted a BUNCH of public land in my life, not that it is any of your business, nor does it pertain to the issue at hand.

People who hunt HF, will hunt there regardless of their legal weapon of choice.

The same thing applies to people who hunt public land.

Including crossbows into a season has yet to make even a substantial increase in hunter numbers in any state they have been included.

And even if that number were doubled.......so what? You had a tag first, so screw everyone after you?:embara:

There is a sad problem here.....and it is not a crossbow.

You have been asked by more than one member to back up your fears with data, and you have yet to bring anything to the table other than emotional drivel.

There is honestly no reason to have fear of crossbows.....they are an inanimate object. They are simply another weapon that uses energy stored in limbs to propel an arrow with the same basic energy and effective range as a compound bow. They are NOT a gun, they do NOT use gunpowder, or magic. They were NOT designed by the devil himself, but they sure can make adults act awful silly.


----------



## Shelby

Scarlet Dew said:


> Nope...........didn't spin it that way.................*YOU* did. That's why *YOU* had to "*PARAPHRASE*" it to make it read like you wanted to spin it...........
> 
> .............*LOL!!!*
> 
> _Next attempted trick _ please..........:darkbeer:


What do you shoot?

What would have happened if we never were allowed to shoot compounds? only recurve and long bows. Do you think we would have a strong enough group of bowhunters that there would even be a season?

Get out of the stone age. Crossbows are just another way to HUNT!

Rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/handgun/longbow/recurve/compound/crossbow

It's all hunting! Who cares if some of you think it shouldn't say "archery" with crossbows. It's still HUNTING! which is a GOOD thing.


----------



## Rothhar1

grizzl said:


> Yea..you got the cash to hunt private/guided/out of state/choose your venue. How about the less fortunate. See...thats the attitude..if it don't affect me..ya don't care.
> 
> *VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS-
> GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


WOW sour grapes much ????? Sell your compound if feel like you would be somehow dissadvantaged and buy an xbow so you would have what ever precieved advantage that those evil xbow toaters have its just that simple. Also get off your duff and go get ppermission from some private land owners you are not so disssadvantaged you or others can not ask now are you !


----------



## Rothhar1

Shelby said:


> What do you shoot?
> 
> What would have happened if we never were allowed to shoot compounds? only recurve and long bows. Do you think we would have a strong enough group of bowhunters that there would even be a season?
> 
> Get out of the stone age. Crossbows are just another way to HUNT!
> 
> Rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/handgun/longbow/recurve/compound/crossbow
> 
> It's all hunting! Who cares if some of you think it shouldn't say "archery" with crossbows. It's still HUNTING! which is a GOOD thing.


Don't argue with this guy he is a real peach and spin doctor if you get my drift and God forbid you or anyone enter into a disscusion with a different opinion because this is where the fur will really fly . I know:zip: !!


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Shelby said:


> Get out of the stone age. Crossbows are just another way to HUNT!
> 
> Rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/handgun/longbow/recurve/compound/crossbow
> 
> It's all hunting! Who cares if some of you think it shouldn't say "archery" with crossbows. It's still HUNTING! which is a GOOD thing.


Where did I say Crossbows weren't another way to hunt..........??? They *are* another way to hunt..........just as hunting with a shotgun is *another* way to hunt..........and a rifle is *another* way to hunt...........and a *muzzleloader *is another way to hunt...........

All are good..........

But I'm *not* gonna call a rifle a slug gun.............and I'm *not* gonna call a muzzleloader a pistol...............and I'm *not* gonna call a Crossbow a Long Bow.........

...........that's all I'm sayin. 

And it looks like you agree as you posted these weapons SEPARATELY.....and didn't lump _Longbow/Recurve/Compound/Crossbow_ as just simply "_Archery_"......as outlined in your quote below...


Shelby said:


> Rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/handgun/longbow/recurve/compound/crossbow



But some in here will "*PARAPHRASE*" ....."*TWIST*"............"*DISTORT*" anything they want to try to make something appear as something it's not.......

.............Ohhh, and so I don't forget your first question...........I shoot a *10 Point Titan* in our late season here in Indiana. *Love* that little crossbow...........it's a good escape from archery, rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders that I use in this and other states.


----------



## jacobh

Like was said before it dosent matter what I think or you or your neighbor if they want to pass it they will. I know alot of people here in PA who were fighting to get it thrown out and they passed it. I will admit I didnt agree with it and still dont really but I thought there would be guys everywhere less deer but surprisingly I didnt see any other guys. So my advise would be do what you have been doing and dont let anybody bother you you will still see deer.


----------



## KOZMAN4907

*wow I can't beleave it an anti admitted it.*



jacobh said:


> Like was said before it dosent matter what I think or you or your neighbor if they want to pass it they will. I know alot of people here in PA who were fighting to get it thrown out and they passed it. I will admit I didnt agree with it and still dont really but I thought there would be guys everywhere less deer but surprisingly I didnt see any other guys. So my advise would be do what you have been doing and dont let anybody bother you you will still see deer.


I hate to say it it but I told ya so. I hunt PA and NJ. Crossbows leagle in both states. I still see plenty of deer. Same amount of guys hunting. I hunt public and pvt land. I really have no time for crossbow haters. Get off the high horse! Crossgun...give me a break! IMHO

Koz


----------



## grizzl

Big Country said:


> Allow me to address both of your recent posts here.......
> 
> You have been asked by more than one member to back up your fears with data, and you have yet to bring anything to the table other than emotional drivel.


You may :wink:

And I provided data and Logical comparative arguments . You just fail to comprehend it or choose to ignore and try to divert the discussion from the original premise.

As for emotional drivel..the last POLL on AT shows you are in the *minority* by a significant count. It is the Xbow'er who spin and twist and cuss trying to "teach" us to disregard OUR DATA and OUR Observations and OUR Common SENSE...just because you say so. See..YOU HAVE OFFERED NO FACTS SUPPORTING why crossbows which were denied at Archery season's inception have morphed something that is now on a par with a vertical bow and a HELP to the health of the resource.

I *think* its drivel that your claim is that Xbows will bring in new hunters. *WE ALL KNOW the demand will be from existing firearm hunters extending thier seasons into archery because of the ease and similarity of use bewteen a firearm and xbow aka MORE LICENSE $$$ *The POLL I started shows the fallacy of Xbows as a reason to hunt/not hunt. In fact, RISING LEASE prices are the #1 destructive force to hunting. Something YOU are willing to propagate by CREATING HIGHER DEMAND for resources (Land)

You see..most know that Xbow advocates have money/greed at the core of thier motivation. You've shown you care little for the "unfortunate" as you sneered..its the high dollar rollers you've got your eyes on. It is Obvious 

And BTW..I have not ONCE sneered, called names or otherwise attacked anyone personally (unlike you). People who resort to this tactic usually recognize they've lost the argument.

Now this is getting tiresome..redundant...the argument has been tested many times on AT and YOU LOST. I concede that GREED has allowed this weapon to be legeslated into early archery season in many states. *I don't concede the battle to reverse that course* just because you say so....

The POWER lies with the consumer...

*VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS- 
GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*


----------



## Big Country

grizzl said:


> You may :wink:
> 
> And I provided data and Logical comparative arguments . You just fail to comprehend it or choose to ignore and try to divert the discussion from the original premise.
> 
> As for emotional drivel..the last POLL on AT shows you are in the *minority* by a significant count. It is the Xbow'er who spin and twist and cuss trying to "teach" us to disregard OUR DATA and OUR Observations and OUR Common SENSE...just because you say so. See..YOU HAVE OFFERED NO FACTS SUPPORTING why crossbows which were denied at Archery season's inception have morphed something that is now on a par with a vertical bow and a HELP to the health of the resource.
> 
> I *think* its drivel that your claim is that Xbows will bring in new hunters. *WE ALL KNOW the demand will be from existing firearm hunters extending thier seasons into archery because of the ease and similarity of use bewteen a firearm and xbow aka MORE LICENSE $$$ *The POLL I started shows the fallacy of Xbows as a reason to hunt/not hunt. In fact, RISING LEASE prices are the #1 destructive force to hunting. Something YOU are willing to propagate by CREATING HIGHER DEMAND for resources (Land)
> 
> You see..most know that Xbow advocates have money/greed at the core of thier motivation. You've shown you care little for the "unfortunate" as you sneered..its the high dollar rollers you've got your eyes on. It is Obvious
> 
> And BTW..I have not ONCE sneered, called names or otherwise attacked anyone personally (unlike you). People who resort to this tactic usually recognize they've lost the argument.
> 
> Now this is getting tiresome..redundant...the argument has been tested many times on AT and YOU LOST. I concede that GREED has allowed this weapon to be legeslated into early archery season in many states. *I don't concede the battle to reverse that course* just because you say so....
> 
> The POWER lies with the consumer...
> 
> *VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS..BOYCOTT PRODUCTS OF COMPANIES MANUFACTURING XBOWS FOR THEIR FORCED INTRUSION INTO ARCHERY SEASONS BY BUYING OFF POLITITIONS-
> GOOGLE http://www.residentagentinfo.com/ AND LEARN ABOUT THESE COMPANIES GO TO THEIR WEB SITES AND KNOW THE PRODUCT LINES*



I have lost nothing here.

Nor do I have anything to gain from crossbow inclusion......

I have already stated that full inclusion of crossbows will bring only minor increases in hunter numbers at best.....this has been proven by states that have already brought the crossbow onboard.

As far as your AT polls......they prove nothing. I have been here a long time, and the percentage of members against crossbows has dwindled from an overwhelming majority, to the current poll numbers you see now..........those of you who are afraid to share are still dominating the polls here, but not as much as you once did.

Further, you must have your own definition of "sneer"?

I have not "sneered" at anyone. I do find your anti hunting rhetoric sad, and your class envy repugnant though. That is not a sneer on my face, it is a frown.

Again, still looking for cold, hard FACTS that show crossbow inclusion will harm your hunting in any way.........

I am sorry that you do not like to be taken to task here, but you are the one attempting to deny other hunters from choosing their own type of archery equipment. Show me the facts where the crossbow is detrimental to archery hunting at ALL, and I will jump over to your side in a New York minute.:darkbeer:

Oh, one addition here.......you claim that us crossbowers spin, twist, and cuss to get you to disregard your data............

1. I am not a crossbow hunter, nor do I ever intend to use one.....the Good Lord willing.
2. As of yet, you have no data........a poll here, or on any other hunting site, is based purely on emotion, it does not come from a biological standpoint that takes herd health, hunter retention and/or recruitment, or any other pertinent issue into consideration.


----------



## red x

Big Country said:


> Further, you must have your own definition of "sneer"?
> 
> I have not "sneered" at anyone. I do find your anti hunting rhetoric sad, and your class envy repugnant though. That is not a sneer on my face, it is a frown.
> 
> Again, still looking for cold, hard FACTS that show crossbow inclusion will harm your hunting in any way.........
> 
> I am sorry that you do not like to be taken to task here, but you are the one attempting to deny other hunters from choosing their own type of archery equipment. Show me the facts where the crossbow is detrimental to archery hunting at ALL, and I will jump over to your side in a New York minute.:darkbeer:
> 
> Oh, one addition here.......you claim that us crossbowers spin, twist, and cuss to get you to disregard your data............
> 
> 1. I am not a crossbow hunter, nor do I ever intend to use one.....the Good Lord willing.
> 2. As of yet, you have no data........a poll here, or on any other hunting site, is based purely on emotion, it does not come from a biological standpoint that takes herd health, hunter retention and/or recruitment, or any other pertinent issue into consideration.


/clap /clap /clap:thumbs_up


----------



## Huff/MO

rutnstrut said:


> There are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. *The only reason most want crossguns for all is that they are easier.*


Unless you're shooting a stick and string that you made, and you use it to shoot your hand-carved wooden arrows, you're kind of being a hypocrite.


----------



## willie

Big Country said:


> Many archery orgs call crossbows archery.
> 
> Of course there are differences between the weapons.
> 
> The steps it takes to fire a crossbow and a compound are different for sure.
> 
> The end result is basically the same.
> 
> It is easier to become marginally proficient with a crossbow than a compound......
> 
> Compounds are more accurate, but not enough to bother with in regards to hunting.
> 
> Crossbows are loud, unbalanced, and awkward to handle in comparison.
> 
> Performance of crossbows and top end compounds are very close.....close enough to make it a non-issue.
> 
> You can bench a crossbow if you are in a stand and the deer cooperates. There are similar products that allow pretty much the same thing for compounds if you want to get them.
> 
> You can shoot 360 degrees out of your stand with a vertical bow......not so with a crossbow.
> 
> The single biggest talking point for the anti-crossbow crowd is the drawing in the presence of game......it is virtually negated when using a blind, and it is somewhat negated when being elevated. And drawing in the presence of game is merely another hunting skill to be learned. You do not have to draw a crossbow in the presence of game, but you do have to point it at the animal........horizontal limb configuration is much easier to spot than vertical in many cases.
> 
> Drawing on game is simply not that big of a deal.
> 
> Which brings us to the truth regarding the anti crossbow crowd........you simply do not want to share the timber with any more hunters.:embara:
> 
> The overall difference between a crossbow and a compound as it relates to hunting is minimal, and for a healthy adult, I give the edge to the compound........that is why I use them myself.
> 
> If you want to discuss a ridiculously unfair jump in ease of use, let us discuss the move from traditional bows to the modern day compound bow.
> 
> Go to ANY national archery target tournament and witness trad bow winning scores WAY behind crossbow winning scores.
> 
> And crossbow winning scores are ALWAYS well behind compound scores.:darkbeer:
> 
> The bottom line is that the inclusion of the crossbow in any states archery season has hurt nothing........nothing but the pride of the members of our hunting community that wish to keep others out of their game.



Good stuff... If you don't mind I'll save that for future use..


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> Nope...........didn't spin it that way.................*YOU* did. That's why *YOU* had to "*PARAPHRASE*" it to make it read like you wanted to spin it...........
> 
> .............*LOL!!!*
> 
> _Next attempted trick _ please..........:darkbeer:


LOL... I sure didn't think that the paraphrase would go flying over your head, but it sure did.



> PARAPHRASING - " No hate here for COMPOUNDS..............just tremendous concern when they are "spun by others" as a "compatible archery class" of weaponry as a long bow......which is as false as it gets!! Their advantage differences are TREMENDOUS.


Which means - You said that about crossbows, but the very same thing can be said aout compounds. They are NOT a "compatible archery class" of a hutning tool (I don't care for the term "weaponry" as that pertains tools to kill humans, not animals) to to a long bow or a recurve for that matter... BUT they are still archery, as is a crossbow.

Since you use a crossbow in ARCHERY season you must recognize that too. Spinning it that a crossbow is not archery and then using one in an ARCHERY SEASON is a tad hypocritical.


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> ..........
> 
> But I'm *not* gonna call a rifle a slug gun.............and I'm *not* gonna call a muzzleloader a pistol.........
> 
> *But they are a ALL firearms right?*
> 
> 
> ......and I'm *not* gonna call a Crossbow a Long Bow.........
> 
> *But they are BOTH pieces of archery equipment, right?*
> 
> 
> 
> .............
> 
> But some in here will "*PARAPHRASE*" ....."*TWIST*"............"*DISTORT*" anything they want to try to make something appear as something it's not.......
> 
> *Never did that. I have been VERY consisatent in saying that crossbows are pieces of archery equipment. Are they the same as a longbow? Noooo, but niether is a high tech, high let off all bells and whistles compound bow,.*
> 
> .............Ohhh, and so I don't forget your first question...........I shoot a *10 Point Titan* in our late season here in Indiana. *Love* that little crossbow...........it's a good escape from archery, rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders that I use in this and other states.
> 
> *And what season are you using that "crossbow" in? Is it archery season? There is no designated crossbow season in Indiana*
> 
> ...........that's all I'm sayin.
> 
> *Yeah, right... :wink: *


...........


----------



## Admiral Vixen

*Wi Bowhunters*

I think we discussed this in our State Forum a while back. :wink:


----------



## willie

*BACK TO THE SUBJECT..

The hunters in Wisconsin have spoken..*




> There were 4,360 people who attended the 2010 Spring Fisheries and Wildlife Rules Hearings and Wisconsin Conservation Congress county meetings that were held in every county statewide on Monday, April 12.
> 
> Question 86 Lower the Crossbow Eligibility to age 55. Votes Yes 2,014 Votes No 1,767
> 
> Majority YES Counties Approving 42 Counties Rejecting 25 Counties Tie Vote 5
> 
> Counties not voting. 0


----------



## Shelby

Scarlet Dew said:


> Where did I say Crossbows weren't another way to hunt..........??? They *are* another way to hunt..........just as hunting with a shotgun is *another* way to hunt..........and a rifle is *another* way to hunt...........and a *muzzleloader *is another way to hunt...........
> 
> All are good..........
> 
> But I'm *not* gonna call a rifle a slug gun.............and I'm *not* gonna call a muzzleloader a pistol...............and I'm *not* gonna call a Crossbow a Long Bow.........
> 
> ...........that's all I'm sayin.
> 
> And it looks like you agree as you posted these weapons SEPARATELY.....and didn't lump _Longbow/Recurve/Compound/Crossbow_ as just simply "_Archery_"......as outlined in your quote below...
> 
> 
> 
> But some in here will "*PARAPHRASE*" ....."*TWIST*"............"*DISTORT*" anything they want to try to make something appear as something it's not.......
> 
> .............Ohhh, and so I don't forget your first question...........I shoot a *10 Point Titan* in our late season here in Indiana. *Love* that little crossbow...........it's a good escape from archery, rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders that I use in this and other states.



NO we don't agree! because I don't want to be in agreement with a guy that thinks the way you do.

I seperated them but I would put rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/pistol all into gun hunting and longbow/recurve/compound/crossbow all into bow hunting.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> Since you use a crossbow in ARCHERY season you must recognize that too. Spinning it that a crossbow is not archery and then using one in an ARCHERY SEASON is a tad hypocritical.


*Oh Reallllly*.............then why is the our Indiana DNR listening to me and the groups I represent that will be changing our all inclusive "ARCHERY" tag to *NOT* include crossbows anymore.....there will now be a "CROSSBOW" tag in this state...........

..............because they understand.............because I understand..............because the groups I represent understand.............

And that drives you nuts!!! :darkbeer:

Boy Willie..........you've had a pretty rough go of it lately............

**Had to post 3 times in a row you don't have high blood pressure over this.........*LOL!!*
**Had to retract statements about twisting what people post
**Have been removed from *TWO* Indiana Hunting Forums due to non-compliant behavior
**Looking down the barrel of changes coming from our IDNR that will confirm what you represent in this state is *NOT* wanted by the majority or the IDNR.
**Having soon to pay for a seperate license (Crossbow Tag) here in Indiana to use a crossbow that won't be able to be used on our "Archery Tag" any longer.


Take it easy pal.............would hate to lose such a valueable resource to our hunting community. 

*LOL!!!*


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Shelby said:


> NO we don't agree! because I don't want to be in agreement with a guy that thinks the way you do.
> 
> I seperated them but I would put rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader/pistol all into gun hunting and longbow/recurve/compound/crossbow all into bow hunting.


How did I know your "quick switch" was a comin'................*LOL!!*

It's OK.......


----------



## Big Country

Scarlet Dew said:


> *Oh Reallllly*.............then why is the our Indiana DNR listening to me and the groups I represent that will be changing our all inclusive "ARCHERY" tag to *NOT* include crossbows anymore.....there will now be a "CROSSBOW" tag in this state...........


Not being familiar with Indiana hunting regs, please help me out here.......

If the IDNR mandates a separate tag for crossbow usage, does this mean that crossbows will NOT be an approved weapon for general archery season?


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Big Country said:


> Not being familiar with Indiana hunting regs, please help me out here.......
> 
> If the IDNR mandates a separate tag for crossbow usage, does this mean that crossbows will NOT be an approved weapon for general archery season?



Right now you can *only* use a bow in our Early Archery or _General Archery_ (as you would call it)....._unless you have a handicap permit_......*only then*, you can use a crossbow in the Early/General Archery season with this handicap permit............

In our Late Archery season you can use a bow and crossbow. 

The way our license system is set up now you need to buy an *Archery License *to hunt in either Early/General or Late season.

Over the past few years there has been those that have attempted to sway our Indiana DNR that a bow and crossbow are *both* archery equipment...........and crossbows should be allowed in the early archery season also.

The result of what their "push attempt" to get this passed did was cause a great education of our DNR................*so much* that they recognized the fact that they truly are *different* weapons.................therefore in upcoming seasons here in Indiana the season structure will be the same as described above.............but the guys carrying bows will still have an _Archery Tag_ to purchase........and the X-bow guys will now have a _Crossbow Tag_ to purchase...........they will not be covered under one all inclusive "Archery Tag" anymore. And that really pizzzzzes the X-bow guys off since they want to spin them as "archery equipment".

There is also some consideration to place the X-bows as a weapon you can use in our General Gun Season by our Indiana DNR...........but that is not official yet. Once again........not what the X-bow group here in Indiana wants........association with the idea the crossbows are more like gun equipment and not archery equipment.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Scarlet Dew said:


> in upcoming seasons here in Indiana the season structure will be the same as described above.............but the guys carrying bows will still have an _Archery Tag_ to purchase........and the X-bow guys will now have a _Crossbow Tag_ to purchase...........they will not be covered under one all inclusive "Archery Tag" anymore.



Let me also be clear that the above changes described above are simply that........_proposals_ at this point..........nothing *official* has been announced yet.


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> Let me also be clear that the above changes described above are simply that........_proposals_ at this point..........nothing *official* has been announced yet.



One would wonder how you know and if the IDNR knows how you know.

:wink:


----------



## willie

Scarlet Dew said:


> .......... Once again........not what the X-bow group here in Indiana wants........association with the idea the crossbows are more like gun equipment and not archery equipment.
> 
> .


You do not have a clue as to what the "X Bow group wants other than the 37 people that asked for them in early archery season in last years gathering of input. No one asked that they be allowed in the firearm season. No one asked for them to have a crossbow license. No one said that they should not be allowed in the early archery season.

All politics in Indy as usual. The input period ended up a farce.. The NRC and the IDNR should have just cut to the chase and just do what the special interest groups want and forget about the average Jor Deer Hunter.. Hell he doesn't count. 

Mark my words when the 199,900 Indiana deer hunters that don't know this is going on find out there will be hell to pay for anyone who had a hand it this.

Put it in the book...


----------



## sits in trees

rutnstrut said:


> There are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. The only reason most want crossguns for all is that they are easier.


you my sir are as good as an anti Hunter to us who enjoy the sport of hunting....i hope crossbows pass in your state then you can be left out there lookin plain silly just like your posts in this thread:thumbs_do


----------



## Big Country

Scarlet Dew said:


> Right now you can *only* use a bow in our Early Archery or _General Archery_ (as you would call it)....._unless you have a handicap permit_......*only then*, you can use a crossbow in the Early/General Archery season with this handicap permit............
> 
> In our Late Archery season you can use a bow and crossbow.
> 
> The way our license system is set up now you need to buy an *Archery License *to hunt in either Early/General or Late season.
> 
> Over the past few years there has been those that have attempted to sway our Indiana DNR that a bow and crossbow are *both* archery equipment...........and crossbows should be allowed in the early archery season also.
> 
> The result of what their "push attempt" to get this passed did was cause a great education of our DNR................*so much* that they recognized the fact that they truly are *different* weapons.................therefore in upcoming seasons here in Indiana the season structure will be the same as described above.............but the guys carrying bows will still have an _Archery Tag_ to purchase........and the X-bow guys will now have a _Crossbow Tag_ to purchase...........they will not be covered under one all inclusive "Archery Tag" anymore. And that really pizzzzzes the X-bow guys off since they want to spin them as "archery equipment".
> 
> There is also some consideration to place the X-bows as a weapon you can use in our General Gun Season by our Indiana DNR...........but that is not official yet. Once again........not what the X-bow group here in Indiana wants........association with the idea the crossbows are more like gun equipment and not archery equipment.
> 
> Hope that helps.


OK, thanks for the information.

Personally, if I were to hunt with a crossbow, I would not care what other people thought, as long as I was hunting legally.

I surely would not spend any time fretting over what any person thought if they held the notion that a crossbow was closer to a firearm than it is to a vertical bow.:chortle:

Compounds and crossbows share the same propulsion method.....

Crossbows and firearms do not.......at least I have yet to see a crossbow that utilizes gunpowder.:wink:

Crossbows and compounds have the same effective range. In fact, up until the instant of the actual shot, hunting methods required for the two weapons are identical.

While firearms can be utilized using the same methods, they certainly do not HAVE TO have the same methods employed due to their effective killing range.

If a crossbow permit can generate needed funds to the IDNR, I do not see a problem with that......assuming that the permit cost is nominal, and in line with similar permits.

I do notice you like to use the term "spin" when describing pro-crossbow inclusion hunters.

A small percentage of hunters from ALL weapons categories tend to "spin" facts in order to bolster their particular agenda, but I do not see crossbow hunters doing this in any larger scale than other groups.

In fact, a quick perusal on the net can provide us with numerous "spins", many of which contain outright lies by various state archery orgs regarding crossbow inclusion.

Grown men running in fear of a weapon that is so close in every way except physical dimension to the compound bow would be hilarious, if it were not so sad to see my fellow hunters being so selfish.ukey:

There is no data from any state that has undergone full inclusion that suggests that inclusion was a mistake, or had any negative impact on vertical bow hunters.

The leap from a modern compound bow to a crossbow is minimal to non-existant, while the leap from traditional archery to the modern compound is extremely large..........

I was bowhunting during that timeframe as well, and still do use trad gear occasionally. What a world of difference.


----------



## Dchiefransom

Reminds me of my younger years, and the arguments back then. This might look familiar.



"More compound bow propaganda,if you are going to the spring meetings tonight,JUST SAY NO. Better yet say HELL NO,the following is the garbage put out by the compound bow lovers. I want to say I have no problems with compound bows for the elderly/disabled as it is now.


For those going to the Conservation Congress spring hearings tomorrow night, you might find that there will be a floor resolution voted on in your county that hopes to expand compound bow usage in the archery deer season for everbody. The American Compound Bow Federation had a booth at the deer and Turkey expo and was handing out the document below which includes a compound bow resolution which would make compound bows legal for every person. You may want to use your own personal network of friends to get the word out and have your bowhunting friends attend the spring hearing on this issue and question 86 which seeks to lower the compound bow age. Below is the info the compound bow federation was handing out. 

------------------------------------- Dear Compound Bow Enthusiast: 

The Wisconsin Compound Bow Federation is a newly formed associate member of the American Compound Bow Federation representing the interests of compound bow owners in Wisconsin. When you paid your fees to become a member of the American Compound Bow Federation, you automatically became a member of the Wisconsin Compound Bow Federation. There is no additional cost to you. 


The Conservation Congress Spring hearings are coming up on April 12th. Please attend jf you can because there is a resolution (question 86) to Lower the age one can use a compound bow during the archery deer season to 55. 1 expect the Wisconsin Bowhunters will oppose it so we need to get out the vote in support. For bow hunters who may not think this is a big issue, consider that at age 39 vertical bow hunters begin to drop out of archery principally because of physical issues. Allowing archers to continue with compound bows keeps us in the game. 

The Conservation Congress Spring hearings are a great time to submit your own proposals. I would like to see pro-compound bow proposals being submitted throughout the state. A sample proposal is provided below: 

Title: A request that Compound Bows be allowed for everyone, without regard to age or disability, during the archery season. 

The problem: Many people who are not over 65 and who do not have a qualifying disability would like to use compound bows during the archery season. More and more people are purchasing compound bows and wonder why they are not allowed to use them to hunt 

Where as: There is very 1ittle difference in performance between compound bows and recurve bows. Compound bow hunter success rates are the same as recurve bow hunter success rates in those states where compound bows are allowed. If recurve bows are allowed why not compound bows? 

Where as: We feel compound bow hunters should have an equal opportunity to the recreational resources as other consumer groups, compound bows should be permitted for everyone during the archery season. 

Where as: Many people who have back problems, muscle and tendon injuries, or nerve problems caused by injury or disease would not be eligible under the current handicap rules. Their exclusion from recreational opportunities in this state is not fair. 

Where as: Compound bows are another management tool available to the DNR and would provide additional license revenue, the state will find compound bows to be beneficial to the overall recreational plan and management programs as shown by the example of other states. 

Where as: The cost and management time spent sorting through medical disability claims is costing the DNR money which would be better spent protection the resource. Eliminating the handicap restriction would be beneficial. 


Be it resolved, that the Conservation Congress, at its annual meeting, recommend to the DNR executive board that they ask the legislators to change the law to allow compound bows during the archery season."


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> One would wonder how you know and if the IDNR knows how you know.
> 
> :wink:


Let's face it Willie..........when it comes to you and your "entertainment website"..........you are always on the outside looking in. Keep guessing on how much I know, or how much I might know, or how much I don't know.......

Don't be pizzzed you burned your bridges in Indiana and you're left out in the dark even though you want to portray yourself as a "play maker".........chin up man.....


..... at least you have a front row seat.........:darkbeer:


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> You do not have a clue as to what the "X Bow group wants other than the 37 people that asked for them in early archery season in last years gathering of input. No one asked that they be allowed in the firearm season. No one asked for them to have a crossbow license. No one said that they should not be allowed in the early archery season.
> 
> All politics in Indy as usual. The input period ended up a farce.. The NRC and the IDNR should have just cut to the chase and just do what the special interest groups want and forget about the average Jor Deer Hunter.. Hell he doesn't count.
> 
> Mark my words when the 199,900 Indiana deer hunters that don't know this is going on find out there will be hell to pay for anyone who had a hand it this.
> 
> Put it in the book...


*Same* threat from you we put in the books when it came to OBR (One Buck Rule) that we put in place with you throwing a temper tantrum in your worn out corner...........there's room for many more chapters "_in the book_"......but I'm not sure your _worn out corner _can take much more. *LOL!!! * :darkbeer:


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> All politics in Indy as usual. The input period ended up a farce.. The NRC and the IDNR should have just cut to the chase and just do what the special interest groups want and forget about the average Jor Deer Hunter.. Hell he doesn't count.


*False* Statement again from you............nice try!! :wink:

The NRC and IDNR gave us all *FULLLLLL *awareness to submit our comments electronically, verbally and on paper.......and then they even listed our names and exact input we gave on their website.........How Cool was that!!! Just because they possibly didn't listen to YOU.......doesn't mean they didn't listen to the rest of us or others.

How narcissistic can you get!!!! 

Somebody grab the pooooper scoooper........it's getting deep in here.


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Big Country said:


> OK, thanks for the information.
> 
> Personally, if I were to hunt with a crossbow, I would not care what other people thought, as long as I was hunting legally.
> 
> I surely would not spend any time fretting over what any person thought if they held the notion that a crossbow was closer to a firearm than it is to a vertical bow.:chortle:
> 
> Compounds and crossbows share the same propulsion method.....
> 
> Crossbows and firearms do not.......at least I have yet to see a crossbow that utilizes gunpowder.:wink:
> 
> Crossbows and compounds have the same effective range. In fact, up until the instant of the actual shot, hunting methods required for the two weapons are identical.
> 
> While firearms can be utilized using the same methods, they certainly do not HAVE TO have the same methods employed due to their effective killing range.
> 
> If a crossbow permit can generate needed funds to the IDNR, I do not see a problem with that......assuming that the permit cost is nominal, and in line with similar permits.
> 
> I do notice you like to use the term "spin" when describing pro-crossbow inclusion hunters.
> 
> A small percentage of hunters from ALL weapons categories tend to "spin" facts in order to bolster their particular agenda, but I do not see crossbow hunters doing this in any larger scale than other groups.
> 
> In fact, a quick perusal on the net can provide us with numerous "spins", many of which contain outright lies by various state archery orgs regarding crossbow inclusion.
> 
> Grown men running in fear of a weapon that is so close in every way except physical dimension to the compound bow would be hilarious, if it were not so sad to see my fellow hunters being so selfish.ukey:
> 
> There is no data from any state that has undergone full inclusion that suggests that inclusion was a mistake, or had any negative impact on vertical bow hunters.
> 
> The leap from a modern compound bow to a crossbow is minimal to non-existant, while the leap from traditional archery to the modern compound is extremely large..........
> 
> I was bowhunting during that timeframe as well, and still do use trad gear occasionally. What a world of difference.


Looks like we agree and disagree on some stuff when it comes to X-Bows........glad we're both into hunting with them though. 

They are fun little rascals and a nice escape from archery, slug guns, muzzleloaders, rifles and pistols. Not many weapons out there except crossbows that you can say is a hybrid of everything I listed..........makes them kinda cute/cool/ and unique in their own way.


----------



## Big Country

Scarlet Dew said:


> Looks like we agree and disagree on some stuff when it comes to X-Bows........glad we're both into hunting with them though.
> 
> They are fun little rascals and a nice escape from archery, slug guns, muzzleloaders, rifles and pistols. Not many weapons out there except crossbows that you can say is a hybrid of everything I listed..........makes them kinda cute/cool/ and unique in their own way.


I am glad to say that we are both into hunting.....:thumbs_up

But I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I do not hunt with a crossbow. I never have. Physical limitations aside, I never will.

I have shot top end models enough to have a solid grasp on their capabilities, but they just do not interest me enough to lay down my compounds and recurve bows.

I am knowledgeable enough with the crossbow to realize that they offer no overall advantage for the healthy hunter, but they are another viable option for those who like them.

Attempting to liken a crossbow to a centerfire rifle, or even a slug gun just because it has a stock is being more than a little bit disingenuous.

A paintball gun looks a LOT like a mini machine gun, but I doubt you would feel like using one to go up against the real deal?:wink:

In terms of effectiveness the crossbow is pretty much a mirror image to the modern compound bow.......close enough that it just does not matter.

Now that you have made it abundantly clear that you are superior to willie, and that the IDNR listens to you, but not to willie.........

.......why not address some questions and statements that have been posed by other members here?

What data do you have to suggest that crossbow inclusion would be harmful to deer management if they were fully included into archery season?

What unfair advantage would those have that exercised their right to use a crossbow during archery season?

If you have been bowhunting yourself for more than a few years, do you feel that drawing in the presence of game is a monumental feat?

I can throw up a lot more questions, but these are a good start........:darkbeer:


----------



## Scarlet Dew

willie said:


> One would wonder how you know and if the IDNR knows how you know.
> 
> :wink:


One more thing............they know because that was a proposal that was submitted.........

..........anyone that can read their website can see those proposals. I even suggested the license for a crossbow the night you were in the same room with the NRC.

Listen up man..............it'll help just a weeeee bit. 

Quit trying to hang people when you fail to listen to what was said right in front of you!!!

Jeeeepers!!!


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Big Country said:


> What data do you have to suggest that crossbow inclusion would be harmful to deer management if they were fully included into archery season?
> 
> What unfair advantage would those have that exercised their right to use a crossbow during archery season?
> 
> If you have been bowhunting yourself for more than a few years, do you feel that drawing in the presence of game is a monumental feat?
> 
> I can throw up a lot more questions, but these are a good start........:darkbeer:


Good questions.........everyone of them..........and everyone of them is an opinionated soaked subject...........(nothing wrong with that)

And if the ones from Wisconsin that are in this fray right now want those answers........they can PM me and we can dialogue in private..........not on the open forums of this place.........too many pointed objects start getting pointed at each other...........and the "willies" of the world chime in with their antics.........which I don't have unlimited time for as would be needed to babysit and respond to those known tactics/antics.

I've never had a Mod on *ANY* forum I've ever joined PM me ......until today...... just to "invite me" / "reassure me" that debating with him on an open forum would be "OK" on the topic of crossbows...........I know *bait* when I see it. 

But it's all good.............. I just happen to pick my timing and placement of debate a little more precisely than most..........much more effective that way.

Willie can attest to that.............


----------



## Big Country

Scarlet Dew said:


> Good questions.........everyone of them..........and everyone of them is an opinionated soaked subject...........(nothing wrong with that)
> 
> And if the ones from Wisconsin that are in this fray right now want those answers........they can PM me and we can dialogue in private..........not on the open forums of this place.........too many pointed objects start getting pointed at each other...........and the "willies" of the world chime in with there antics.........which I don't have unlimited time for as would be needed to babysit and respond to those known tactics/antics.
> 
> I've never had a mod until today "invite me" / "reassure me" to debating with him on an open forum would be "OK"...........I know *bait* when I see it.
> 
> But it's all good.............. I just happen to pick my timing a placement of debate a little more precisely than most..........much more effective that way.



It appears you know bait about as well as you know crossbows.:tongue:

Nobody threw any bait your way, I simply did not want you to refrain from responding to my posts because of my status here. Giving back to a site that has given me a lot is only right, but it sometimes comes at a price......like now. You are conveniently using my position as a reason to sidestep my legitimate questions.

I will give you kudo`s for the wording of your last post though.....:darkbeer:

In one fell swoop you have taken a stance that this is cloak and dagger stuff, and you will only talk to like minded souls when it comes to the specifics of the issue.:thumbs_up

That is about as lame a it gets, but a good move when a man knows he has painted himself into the proverbial corner.:wink:

See, I could have become righteously indignant when you basically called me a liar regarding the free debate thing, but I am not even a little bit steamed.

I will admit to being slightly disappointed though.......

I honestly expected that you could put up a better front than this.:tongue:


----------



## Scarlet Dew

Big Country said:


> It appears you know bait about as well as you know crossbows.:tongue:
> 
> Again.......my opininion vs yours.......
> 
> Nobody threw any bait your way, I simply did not want you to refrain from responding to my posts because of my status here. Giving back to a site that has given me a lot is only right, but it sometimes comes at a price......like now. You are conveniently using my position as a reason to sidestep my legitimate questions.
> 
> I didn't say WHICH mod sent me that PM.........you now have identified it as you.....I didn't.........so don't use more stink-bait as your "_positition comes at a price_" comment trys to invoke. I at least kept your ID private............you on the other hand decided you wanted to look like a martyr.
> 
> I will give you kudo`s for the wording of your last post though.....:darkbeer:
> 
> In one fell swoop you have taken a stance that this is cloak and dagger stuff, and you will only talk to like minded souls when it comes to the specifics of the issue.:thumbs_up
> 
> *Wisdom* has many shapes and names.......
> 
> That is about as lame a it gets, but a good move when a man knows he has painted himself into the proverbial corner.:wink:
> 
> ..........and "Lame" is sometimes a name others fling at "Wisdom".
> 
> See, I could have become righteously indignant when you basically called me a liar regarding the free debate thing, but I am not even a little bit steamed.
> 
> I didn't call you anything.........you singled yourself out..........I kept your identity private..........I'm glad you can see that, as it helps you not being steamed.
> 
> I will admit to being slightly disappointed though.......
> 
> Don't be disappointed.........someone else will debate with you in here on an this open forum. I'm just one of many.........but I handle myself differently than you're used to
> 
> I honestly expected that you could put up a better front than this.:tongue:
> 
> No front.........Nothing fake.........I've kinda taken to heart what Harry Truman once said........ _"I never give them Helll......I just tell the truth and they think it's Helll"_ ...........your response is not a suprise to me..........and your response doesn't make you evil or sinister or lame either......
> Good hunting to you.



I've posted my answers above in your quote in red to make it easier to follow. Hope that helps.


----------



## Big Country

Since you cannot produce a single piece of data to back your stance on crossbows......everything is an opinion? Opinions from a state DNR official would be considered an expert opinion in a court of law, is that not good enough for you? Show us the data.......:tongue:

Also, when you thought that you could sit back and attack willie`s stance, and bring up his membership(or lack thereof) on other forums, you were all for discussing this subject.......

As soon as you were asked pointed questions it is game over?

Can you not agree that since you are attempting to block fellow hunters from the field that you should at least bring something of substance to this table?

Surely a civil debate of the subject on an open forum would not jeopardize your personal position on this issue?:fear:


Let me make sure I am understanding your position fully at this time......

You are from Indiana, but since this thread was about Wisconsin you will discuss it via PM with Wisconsin residents?

I am from PA, where full inclusion has recently occurred.........without the sky falling, BTW, despite our states bowhunting orgs furious stance on the subject.

Anyway, if I start a crossbow thread regarding PA, will you explain your points to me via PM?

Also, even though the PA bowhunting org was way wrong, and showed divisiveness on the subject, I am still a member and a donor of the UBP.......I do not hold a group that does a lot of good in disdain for making one mistake, no matter how colossal it is.:wink:

Oh yea, one last thing.........that was real sweet how you valiantly tried to protect my identity by not mentioning which mod told you it was fine to debate with them........considering I was the only mod on the thread. LOL


----------



## INIDHA

Willie posted

"One would wonder how you know and if the IDNR knows how you know."


Willie, the IDNR asked ALL "stakeholders' to leave personal agendas aside, AND to gather input from members as well as keep them informed of the progress. I would assume ScarletDew is a member of one of those groups.

I'll say up front, I met with IDHA membership on April 6 2010. I told those present what was discussed and agreed upon, I also asked for comments to change the IDHA position as well as the agenda on the next meeting. Just for your information....... ScarletDew was not present!

Quit looking for the secret society! I want you to read the quote from IDNR

"The components of the proposed strategy, which were formed after meetings during the past several months with stakeholder groups to discuss objectives, strategies and components of deer management in Indiana, include deer donation programs, hunter access, antlerless quota system, season structure, bag limits, hunting equipment, licensing, and special deer control permits.

The stakeholders included representatives of the DNR divisions of Fish and Wildlife, and Law Enforcement, Bloomington City Council, Indiana Bow Hunters Association, Indiana Deer Hunter’s Association, Indiana Farm Bureau, Quality Deer Management Association, Indiana Sportsman’s Roundtable, Indiana Wildlife Federation, Indiana Woodland Owner’s Association, The Nature Conservancy, and a sporting goods retailer. "

Woody Williams nor HuntingIndiana.com was considered a "stakeholder". You have had several years to have a legitimate group in Indiana, you have been aksed to do so. It appears you have a entertainment site.

And just to clarify a post about 199,900 gun deer hunters, that was not the number IDNR presented. And the percentage of gun hunters that also archery hunt..........60%. I was present when the numbers were given.

Your fishing in the wrong pond........


Joe Bacon

President IDHA


----------



## Big Country

Hi Joe, and welcome to AT.

Am I reading that figure you stated correctly?

60% of Indiana gun hunters also bowhunt?

If that is accurate, that is a HUGE percentage. I would have never dreamed that any state had such a large percentage of gun hunters that also bow hunted.

Also, if you don`t mind answering.......what is the IDHA`s stance on full crossbow inclusion in archery season?

Thanks.......


----------



## agingcrossbower

rutnstrut said:


> For those of you stating crossguns are not easier or offer no advantage answer me one question. Why then are they the "archery" weapon offered to the elderly and disabled that need the advantage? If they truley offered no advantage over a vertical bow this wouldn't be the case. Kind of interesting that most of the pro crossgunners weighing in on this are NOT from Wi or the area.


I am from wi. and you sound like such a dipstick. I'm sure most longbowers are offended by your decked out compound. Now, I am disablied and I shot longbow, recurve compound and now crossbow. I really would rather shoot a compound. The crossbow is heavy, you only get one shot,the yardage is limited and cocking and uncocking is a pain in the ass. You know I really don't care what you shoot. 
Back to your moronic question. Disablied people shoot crossbows because they cannot draw a compound. Disablied people would love to have the advantage of a quiet shot,multiple shots, longer shots ease of maneuvering and holding at the time of shot. And not having to unload all the time. 
Again, I am born and raisied in Wisconsin and there's your answer why we shoot crossbows you narrow minded jerk. I am drugged up and have NO patience for people like YOU Period.


----------



## Doty Bumb

If one takes the time to research they would find many alternatives to the crossbow and several of these are simple modifications, or add on adaptive equipment that can work better and much cheaper than an expensive crossbow. These items will allow the use of equipment a recently physically challenged bowhunter already has. Wonder why no one mentions these alternatives. Could it be because the crossbow makers don't make money on them?

Some might ask what the difference between a crossbow and a modified bow using a draw lock is?



About $700.:doh:



http://pcba-inc.org/pcba03/support/adaptive/default.htm


----------



## Big Country

Doty Bumb said:


> If one takes the time to research they would find many alternatives to the crossbow and several of these are simple modifications, or add on adaptive equipment that can work better and much cheaper than an expensive crossbow. These items will allow the use of equipment a recently physically challenged bowhunter already has. Wonder why no one mentions these alternatives. Could it be because the crossbow makers don't make money on them?
> 
> Some might ask what the difference between a crossbow and a modified bow using a draw lock is?
> 
> 
> 
> About $700.:doh:
> 
> 
> 
> http://pcba-inc.org/pcba03/support/adaptive/default.htm



But we are not discussing the draw lock......we are discussing crossbows.

Is there some reason that crossbows should not be used as a hunting tool? And I am not talking about a weapon for physically handicapped hunters either.

One cannot argue that a crossbow has the same basic effective range as a compound bow, so what reason would there be for precluding their use during archery season?

After all, they are indeed archery equipment.....


----------



## Doty Bumb

I was addressing agingcrossbowers post.

You can believe that a crossbow is archery equipment all you want. Does not make it so. You can also believe that when you use a crossbow during archery season that you are bowhunting. In reality you are not bowhunting, you are crossbowhunting.:icon_pirat:


----------



## agingcrossbower

Doty Bumb said:


> I was addressing agingcrossbowers post.
> 
> You can believe that a crossbow is archery equipment all you want. Does not make it so. You can also believe that when you use a crossbow during archery season that you are bowhunting. In reality you are not bowhunting, you are crossbowhunting.:icon_pirat:


Sure you can look at it that way. You can also say that to a longbow purist a compound bow with all the bells and whistles on that should be called pulleyhunting. Very radical change from the basic longbow. But that a tech savvy compound bow shooter looks past. 
 The point is an archer should be able to hunt with any from of bow he or she chooses. Stop dividing us. Unite us. Thats the way an archery hunter should approach this.


----------



## agingcrossbower

Doty Bumb said:


> If one takes the time to research they would find many alternatives to the crossbow and several of these are simple modifications, or add on adaptive equipment that can work better and much cheaper than an expensive crossbow. These items will allow the use of equipment a recently physically challenged bowhunter already has. Wonder why no one mentions these alternatives. Could it be because the crossbow makers don't make money on them?
> 
> Some might ask what the difference between a crossbow and a modified bow using a draw lock is?
> 
> 
> 
> About $700.:doh:
> 
> Great site. But your draw lock would'nt work for me. Arthritis in the hands. No power to draw back the bow. Does work with a most crossbow cocking devices. Reduces the poundage a lot so I can draw it. Tenpoint is the most user friendly.


----------



## Doty Bumb

agingcrossbower said:


> Doty Bumb said:
> 
> 
> 
> If one takes the time to research they would find many alternatives to the crossbow and several of these are simple modifications, or add on adaptive equipment that can work better and much cheaper than an expensive crossbow. These items will allow the use of equipment a recently physically challenged bowhunter already has. Wonder why no one mentions these alternatives. Could it be because the crossbow makers don't make money on them?
> 
> Some might ask what the difference between a crossbow and a modified bow using a draw lock is?
> 
> 
> 
> About $700.:doh:
> 
> 
> Great site. But your draw lock would'nt work for me. Arthritis in the hands. No power to draw back the bow. Does work with a most crossbow cocking devices. Reduces the poundage a lot so I can draw it. Tenpoint is the most user friendly.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right. Not everyone can use these devices and the crossbow most certainly is the proper choice for you. My gripe is with able bodied people that want to circumvent the challenge of bowhunting by making it as easy as they can.
> 
> Even with a modern compound bow you must get to full draw and hold the bow at full draw using your own muscle power while in the presence of the animal you are hunting. They want it to be much easier by using a crossbow. It a nutshell one could say it's the "dumping" down of bowhunting.
Click to expand...


----------



## agingcrossbower

There is a lot more to hunting than your back muscles. I know a few gun hunters that is given a bow they would hunt the same stand every day just like gun no matter which way the wind is blowing or what the deer are up to. Like I said, you need a longbow purist to throw your **** right back in your face. Then watch you cry unfair. You know, like once you roll over those wheel a child could hold it unlike a longbow. And the ranging instinctive unlike the sights oh my, set it a forget it. PLEASE. This could go on and on. You just want your deer or can't change.


----------



## agingcrossbower

doty bomb your a newbie here. Sit and open your mind. There are many ways to hunt deer. Respect choice of weapon. Not everyone has to do it like you to be right. There is a lot of talented people on this forum. Get to know them first. Enjoy the forum.:zip:


----------



## Doty Bumb

Ya I am a newbie here. Just like the crossbow full intrusion pushers are in bowseason. FYI, I shoot all types of bows, longbows, recurves and compounds and know the difference between them all. I presently use a MOAB longbow during bow season and use my recurve during the gun season. Use my compound during the turkey season. Have been shooting bows for the last 49 years. The biggest gap there is technology wise is between the compound and the crossbow. Now that the CB makers have even more markets, and their R&D funds grow, watch the crossbow technology advance at even a faster rate.

Bowhunting is easy enough without crossbows.


----------



## rutnstrut

agingcrossbower said:


> There is a lot more to hunting than your back muscles. I know a few gun hunters that is given a bow they would hunt the same stand every day just like gun no matter which way the wind is blowing or what the deer are up to. Like I said, you need a longbow purist to throw your **** right back in your face. Then watch you cry unfair. You know, like once you roll over those wheel a child could hold it unlike a longbow. And the ranging instinctive unlike the sights oh my, set it a forget it. PLEASE. This could go on and on. You just want your deer or can't change.


I sure hope you shoot your crossbow a hell of a lot better than you type,your post was extremely painful to read.


----------



## agingcrossbower

rutnstrut said:


> I sure hope you shoot your crossbow a hell of a lot better than you type,your post was extremely painful to read.


Yes, that was really bad was'nt it. Your quite the critic are'nt you. It seems the only thing you like, is you.


----------



## willie

rutnstrut said:


> I sure hope you shoot your crossbow a hell of a lot better than you type,your post was extremely painful to read.



I understood it quite well.

Maybe you have reading comprehension problems.

I see the vote did not go in your favor. Too bad. :wink:


----------



## willie

big country said:


> many archery orgs call crossbows archery.
> 
> of course there are differences between the weapons.
> 
> The steps it takes to fire a crossbow and a compound are different for sure.
> 
> The end result is basically the same.
> 
> It is easier to become marginally proficient with a crossbow than a compound......
> 
> Compounds are more accurate, but not enough to bother with in regards to hunting.
> 
> Crossbows are loud, unbalanced, and awkward to handle in comparison.
> 
> Performance of crossbows and top end compounds are very close.....close enough to make it a non-issue.
> 
> You can bench a crossbow if you are in a stand and the deer cooperates. There are similar products that allow pretty much the same thing for compounds if you want to get them.
> 
> You can shoot 360 degrees out of your stand with a vertical bow......not so with a crossbow.
> 
> The single biggest talking point for the anti-crossbow crowd is the drawing in the presence of game......it is virtually negated when using a blind, and it is somewhat negated when being elevated. And drawing in the presence of game is merely another hunting skill to be learned. You do not have to draw a crossbow in the presence of game, but you do have to point it at the animal........horizontal limb configuration is much easier to spot than vertical in many cases.
> 
> Drawing on game is simply not that big of a deal.
> 
> Which brings us to the truth regarding the anti crossbow crowd........you simply do not want to share the timber with any more hunters.:embara:
> 
> The overall difference between a crossbow and a compound as it relates to hunting is minimal, and for a healthy adult, i give the edge to the compound........that is why i use them myself.
> 
> If you want to discuss a ridiculously unfair jump in ease of use, let us discuss the move from traditional bows to the modern day compound bow.
> 
> go to any national archery target tournament and witness trad bow winning scores way behind crossbow winning scores.
> 
> And crossbow winning scores are always well behind compound scores.:darkbeer:
> 
> The bottom line is that the inclusion of the crossbow in any states archery season has hurt nothing........nothing but the pride of the members of our hunting community that wish to keep others out of their game.




*needs repeating....*


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> Willie posted
> 
> "One would wonder how you know and if the IDNR knows how you know."
> 
> 
> Willie, the IDNR asked ALL "stakeholders' to leave personal agendas aside, AND to gather input from members as well as keep them informed of the progress. I would assume ScarletDew is a member of one of those groups.
> 
> *Or he could have simply been told by one of the stakeholder's presidents? *
> 
> I'll say up front, I met with IDHA membership on April 6 2010. I told those present what was discussed and agreed upon, I also asked for comments to change the IDHA position as well as the agenda on the next meeting. Just for your information....... ScarletDew was not present!
> 
> *How many was at that meeting Joe? The usual bunch? You, Dave, Doug and 5 or 6 of the "core group of the active members"? That was very revelaing when your rep got up at the deer meeting in July and said," I'm here to represent a core group of the active memebrs of the IDHA". Very revealing.
> 
> 
> It is still the Joe, Dave and Doug show..*
> 
> 
> Quit looking for the secret society! I want you to read the quote from IDNR
> 
> Woody Williams nor HuntingIndiana.com was considered a "stakeholder". You have had several years to have a legitimate group in Indiana, you have been aksed to do so.
> 
> *Sorry, I'm not much of an organizer, joiner or an butt kisser.*
> 
> It appears you have a entertainment site.
> 
> *Yes, it is very entertaining to talk to hunters of all stripes and don't cast stones at any one else because of what equipment that they hunt with. We have a lot of fun. H-I must be pretty entertaining as we sure have got all the otehr Indiana hunting sites beat, hands down.
> 
> Sorry that no one won your "How long with Hunting Indiana forum last" pool. We will be celebrating 5 years this July.*
> 
> And just to clarify a post about 199,900 gun deer hunters, that was not the number IDNR presented. And the percentage of gun hunters that also archery hunt..........60%. I was present when the numbers were given.
> 
> *But, they are still gun hunters right? BTW - that is an estimate. The IDNR has no accurate count for any hunting weapon type hunter. That's why a crossbow license wont tell them diddly about how many hunt with a crossbow or what the succes rate would be *



...........


----------



## willie

Doty Bumb said:


> ......... The biggest gap there is technology wise is between the compound and the crossbow. ........
> 
> *The laugher of the day... *
> 
> Bowhunting is easy enough without crossbows.
> 
> *Yes sir. It is easy. Compounds made it taht way. Crossbows will not add any more "easy" to it. *



....


----------



## Doty Bumb

Actually there probably is one bigger gap than the one I mentioned in my post "willie". 

And ya, you are no joiner, that is for sure. Go figure.

I wish to keep no one out of the bowseason. All an able bodied person needs to do is get a bow, practice with it and go bowhunting. It's your problem if you don't wish to participate. But I guess that's too hard for some able bodied people.

Hitchhiker seems to define most crossbow intrusionists that I have met.


----------



## Jim C

rutnstrut said:


> There are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. The only reason most want crossguns for all is that they are easier.


put down the training wheels and chuck the release

You bigots make me laugh


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> Actually there probably is one bigger gap than the one I mentioned in my post "willie".
> 
> And ya, you are no joiner, that is for sure. Go figure.
> 
> I wish to keep no one out of the bowseason. All an able bodied person needs to do is get a bow, practice with it and go bowhunting. It's your problem if you don't wish to participate. But I guess that's too hard for some able bodied people.
> 
> Hitchhiker seems to define most crossbow intrusionists that I have met.


I agree, training wheels, peep sights and releases should only be reserved for people unable rather than unwilling-to shoot a recurve bow with fingers

you sound like a source of disinformation that used to frequent these boards a few years ago.


what do you think willie-do we have another argyle warrior--a gold toe debater?


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> Ya I am a newbie here. Just like the crossbow full intrusion pushers are in bowseason. FYI, I shoot all types of bows, longbows, recurves and compounds and know the difference between them all. I presently use a MOAB longbow during bow season and use my recurve during the gun season. Use my compound during the turkey season. Have been shooting bows for the last 49 years. The biggest gap there is technology wise is between the compound and the crossbow. Now that the CB makers have even more markets, and their R&D funds grow, watch the crossbow technology advance at even a faster rate.
> 
> Bowhunting is easy enough without crossbows.


You obviously are clueless. What makes bowhunting tough is the distance not the shot. My 12 year old kid would destroy you in a target competition. But he knows nothing (yet) of bowhunting. You clowns confuse hunting skills with shooting skills. IF shooting skills were all that mattered, Erika Anshutz or some korean girls would be the greatest bowhunters in the world


----------



## Doty Bumb

I really don't think many of you here would make a pimple on a bowhunters rear end.

And very much like woody, or willie or whatever his name is I don't much care what you think.:lol3:


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> I really don't think many of you here would make a pimple on a bowhunters rear end.
> 
> And very much like woody, or willie or whatever his name is I don't much care what you think.:lol3:


Sure you do-that is why you hide behind a blank profile. As to whether you bowhunt or not--who knows. The last poster who spewed the stuff you did claimed to be a bowhunter as well. He was as legit as "Wolfkiller". 

Willie has forgotten more about Bowhunting than you will ever know.:mg:


----------



## willie

Doty Bumb said:


> I really don't think many of you here would make a pimple on a bowhunters rear end.
> 
> And very much like woody, or willie or whatever his name is I don't much care what you think.:lol3:




LOL... another *HUGE *laugh of the day..

Don't you just love these chest thumpers?





.


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> LOL... another *HUGE *laugh of the day..
> 
> Don't you just love these chest thumpers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


smells like the Son of Source


----------



## willie

Jim C said:


> smells like the Son of Source


I think he is the Son of TheSource's Sock Puppet.. :wink:


----------



## Doty Bumb

You fellas really don't have a clue.:mg:

All you have is :bs:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

*Thanks for the laugh*

"Drawing on game is simply not that big of a deal." :set1_applaud: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: 

Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> "Drawing on game is simply not that big of a deal." :set1_applaud: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2:
> 
> Thanks for the laugh.


RC...? There goes the neighborhood. :wink:

Maybe you can get wth BC when he makes his annual pilgramage to Illinois and he can give you a lesson in when and how to draw on a game animal.

*OR*

Just hunt a little higher or buy a pop up blind.


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> RC...? There goes the neighborhood. :wink:
> 
> Maybe you can get wth BC when he makes his annual pilgramage to Illinois and he can give you a lesson in when and how to draw on a game animal.
> 
> *OR*
> 
> Just hunt a little higher or buy a pop up blind.


The clowns make stuff up to suit their bigotry. Whatever facts we counter their psychobabble with, they change gears

We did a test where we put a camera on a McKenszie Deer and had someone in a treestand draw a compound or raise a crossbow. If the camera was pointed at the hunter, it was easy to see either movement


What I find hilarious is 

1) some gutless coward who is afraid to fill out his or her or its profile saying people who are well known on this forum are "clueless"

and 

2) the training wheel release clowns who never tell us why they don't shoot with a "real bow" and no release

if easy is bad, why is "almost as easy" (as a crossbow) good?


----------



## willie

*Drawing in the presence of game....*

The crossbow has a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.

1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.

2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area.

3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal, even if they were doing a dance.

4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.

Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..

Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. *THAT* is where the rubber meets the road.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

There seems to be a small group of folks (that don't live or hunt in WI) that seem passionate about our state's rights issues. I find that odd. If the clear majority of hunters in WI wanted crossbows in the archery deer season, they would be legal here already. The fact they are not legal here seems to some how get non-residents very animated. I find that hilarious.


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> There seems to be a small group of folks (that don't live or hunt in WI) that seem passionate about our state's rights issues. I find that odd. If the clear majority of hunters in WI wanted crossbows in the archery deer season, they would be legal here already. The fact they are not legal here seems to some how get non-residents very animated. I find that hilarious.


LOL.. address the subject.

Do you know when and how to draw on an animal?


----------



## Doty Bumb

Jim C said:


> The clowns make stuff up to suit their bigotry. Whatever facts we counter their psychobabble with, they change gears
> 
> We did a test where we put a camera on a McKenszie Deer and had someone in a treestand draw a compound or raise a crossbow. If the camera was pointed at the hunter, it was easy to see either movement
> 
> 
> What I find hilarious is
> 
> 1) some gutless coward who is afraid to fill out his or her or its profile saying people who are well known on this forum are "clueless"
> 
> and
> 
> 2) the training wheel release clowns who never tell us why they don't shoot with a "real bow" and no release
> 
> if easy is bad, why is "almost as easy" (as a crossbow) good?


Says the keyboard commando himself who hides behind an anonymous screen name.:jaw::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2: :lol:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

willie said:


> LOL.. address the subject.



The subject is crossbows in the WI archery deer season and the Conservation Congress spring hearings. 




willie said:


> Do you know when and how to draw on an animal?


This deer and 36 others (and a P&Y bear) will let you know that I have mastered one of the main challenges that makes bowhunting what it is. Getting away with the draw and pulling a bow to it's peak weight with only human power while game stands very near is what appeals to me and why I enjoy the challenge of bowhunting. WI already has a season for shoulder fired, cocked, scoped, weapons in which I can point, click off the safety, look through the scope and flex my index finger resting in a trigger guard in order to take a shot. I enjoy that season for what it is but bowhunting is the challenge I am looking for. The other season is for filling the freezer with as little effort as possible. In order to increase the challenge of a shoulder fired season, I try to get especially close to the prey and now I have taken to using a 50 year old, restored, bolt action shotgun with only a front bead. 

Most of the deer I have harvested with a bow have been 10 yards or less and the furthest was 18 yards. I pride myself on getting close and view bowhutning as getting as close as I can to maximize harvest potential. That challenge and being in such close quarters means the draw often times will separate success from failure. I view target archery and seeing how far I can be from the target and still hit where I aim. I like to use a homemade bow, homemade arrows, homemade broadheads, homemade finger tab and other homemade items because I want bowhunting to be as hard (read challenging) as possible. The effort and practice make harvesting a deer a great reward that provides a great deal of satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. The joy is in the doing. I do not seek to make bowhunting as easy and effortless as I can. I have the gun season for that. If somebody in another state wants to use a crossbow to harvest a deer and it's legal there, God bless em. I think they would better enjoy the challenge of close quarters bowhunting and all that goes into it but in todays day, there are few who want that and most hope to get a deer with as little efort as they can. Crossbows are perfect for that. In WI, it's not legal to hunt with a crossbows unless you are elderly or handicapped. WI allows those folks the superior advantages of the crossbow to compensate for their lack of physical ability to use a bow. I applaud that law and even have a 74 year old father that takes advantage of that law.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

You will want to know that everything I described about getting away with the draw with game in close quarters is the same for a compound archer. If his compound is set at 70 pounds, he must pull back all 70 pounds with only the muscles of his hands, arms, back, ect. with all the motion required of an archer using a recurve or longbow. His advantage is in the last inch of draw (once he has drawn past the peak weight of 70 pounds) allows a reduced holding weight but he still pulled the weight and the required motion in close quarters in order to even have an opportunity to release his arrow. The crossbow shooter avoids the most difficult aspects of drawing and shooting game with a bow. I suppose he is able to do things (like I do while gun hunting) in order to add some difficulty or accomplishment to the release of his bolt. He too can limit himself to game harvested at only very close range or be selective in the size of the bucks he shoots or other things in an effort to add some difficulty to his task.


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> I was addressing agingcrossbowers post.
> 
> You can believe that a crossbow is archery equipment all you want. Does not make it so. You can also believe that when you use a crossbow during archery season that you are bowhunting. In reality you are not bowhunting, you are crossbowhunting.:icon_pirat:


why? because some blank profile claims it is so

do you compound bow hunt? lots of people used to claim that is not real bowhunting either

I have found that those who whine about what type of bows others use generally are

1) people with serious self esteem issues bordering on being including in the DSM-IV

2) pss poor hunters

3) greedy 

4) clueless

5) people who need to get a life


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> Says the keyboard commando himself who hides behind an anonymous screen name.:jaw::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2: :lol:


everyone who matters knows who I am. anyone involved in FITA target archery knows me. You didn't do a very good job of actually doing any research


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> You will want to know that everything I described about getting away with the draw with game in close quarters is the same for a compound archer. If his compound is set at 70 pounds, he must pull back all 70 pounds with only the muscles of his hands, arms, back, ect. with all the motion required of an archer using a recurve or longbow. His advantage is in the last inch of draw (once he has drawn past the peak weight of 70 pounds) allows a reduced holding weight but he still pulled the weight and the required motion in close quarters in order to even have an opportunity to release his arrow. The crossbow shooter avoids the most difficult aspects of drawing and shooting game with a bow. I suppose he is able to do things (like I do while gun hunting) in order to add some difficulty or accomplishment to the release of his bolt. He too can limit himself to game harvested at only very close range or be selective in the size of the bucks he shoots or other things in an effort to add some difficulty to his task.


You are wrong

the most difficult part of shooting a bow is mastering a finger release. How do I know

well I am the coach of the current Cadet men's recurvenational target champion, the current ladies Indoor and outdoor masters barebow champion, two members of the Junior Dream team and the youngest man in US history to win the US and World Crossbow Target championship (he's also a national class compound archer). In addition, I have won dozens of recurve, and crossbow state titles and can shoot a compound to a fairly high standard. The compound bow and the mechanical release elminates 95% of the time it takes to learn how to shoot a bow for hunting level accuracy (to be a world class compound archer takes the same dedication as to be a world class recurve archer though because the accuracy standards are so much higher). 

So stop spewing crap you obviously don't have the credential to talk about. To claim that drawing through the hump of a compound bow is so hard is complete and utter BS and given that NO STATE has a minimum draw weight above 40 Pounds your use of 70 pounds is not only dishonest its complete BS.


----------



## Doty Bumb

Rancid Crabtree said:


> You will want to know that everything I described about getting away with the draw with game in close quarters is the same for a compound archer. If his compound is set at 70 pounds, he must pull back all 70 pounds with only the muscles of his hands, arms, back, ect. with all the motion required of an archer using a recurve or longbow. His advantage is in the last inch of draw (once he has drawn past the peak weight of 70 pounds) allows a reduced holding weight but he still pulled the weight and the required motion in close quarters in order to even have an opportunity to release his arrow. The crossbow shooter avoids the most difficult aspects of drawing and shooting game with a bow. I suppose he is able to do things (like I do while gun hunting) in order to add some difficulty or accomplishment to the release of his bolt. He too can limit himself to game harvested at only very close range or be selective in the size of the bucks he shoots or other things in an effort to add some difficulty to his task.


:set1_signs009:


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> :set1_signs009:


Polly wants a cracker?


----------



## Doty Bumb

Jim C said:


> Polly wants a cracker?


Now that is a very mature post. And you are a coach?


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> Now that is a very mature post. And you are a coach?


Yes a well known one. Anyone with a brain could figure out who I am. I have no reason to hide behind a blank profile

we don't even know if you actually bowhunt. We have seen lots of PETA quints on this board pretending to be hunters when in reality they are hunting hating whackos


----------



## Doty Bumb

Jim C said:


> Yes a well known one. Anyone with a brain could figure out who I am. I have no reason to hide behind a blank profile
> 
> we don't even know if you actually bowhunt. We have seen lots of PETA quints on this board pretending to be hunters when in reality they are hunting hating whackos



Just because you post things on a BB doesn't make it so. Being an archery coach doesn't make you a bowhunter. 

BTW I am not a hitchhiker.

Ain't America Great!


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> Just because you post things on a BB doesn't make it so. Being an archery coach doesn't make you a bowhunter.
> 
> BTW I am not a hitchhiker.
> 
> Ain't America Great!


But I am a bowhunter

and I am posting on stuff that I have professional expertise in-such as what is the hardest thing to master about shooting a bow

Having coached several national target champions in recurve, a national compound team champion, several compound "gold olympians" and the current #1 crossbow archer in the USA means my opinion on what constitutes the most difficult part of learning how to shoot a bow has far more validity than say someone like you who has no credentials

in court experts are allowed to give opinions. people without expertise are not.

like it or not, I am an expert on teaching people to shoot bows-all kinds of bows.


----------



## Doty Bumb

Archery is how far you can shoot. Bowhunting is how close you can get.

*BIG DIFFERENCE*


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> Archery is how far you can shoot. Bowhunting is how close you can get.
> 
> *BIG DIFFERENCE*


yeah and that is why I said that many posts ago-that the difficulty in bowhunting is getting within range, not making the shot which cuts against your moronic anti xbow rants


----------



## Doty Bumb

Jim C said:


> yeah and that is why I said that many posts ago-that the difficulty in bowhunting is getting within range, not making the shot which cuts against your moronic anti xbow rants


You certainly portray a poor image for a lawyer. Your personal attacks indicate a lack of self control and poor language skills.

I will respectfully retire for the evening and in the next few days be out bowhunting in the turkey woods. You fellas have fun on the puter.


Doty Bumb :usa2:


----------



## Jim C

Doty Bumb said:


> You certainly portray a poor image for a lawyer. Your personal attacks indicate a lack of self control and poor language skills.
> 
> I will respectfully retire for the evening and in the next few days be out bowhunting in the turkey woods. You fellas have fun on the puter.
> 
> 
> Doty Bumb :usa2:


Your trollage demonstrates a poor image for a sock puppet

Now back into the drawer with the argyles, gold toes, sweats and pantyhose

I note you could not refute anything I said and you have proven you have no valid argument

whine all you want but we all know you are a trollukey:


----------



## willie

Jim C said:


> Your trollage demonstrates a poor image for a sock puppet
> 
> Now back into the drawer with the argyles, gold toes, sweats and *pantyhose*
> 
> I note you could not refute anything I said and you have proven you have no valid argument
> 
> whine all you want but we all know you are a trollukey:



Funny.....


----------



## rutnstrut

Jim C said:


> You are wrong
> 
> the most difficult part of shooting a bow is mastering a finger release. How do I know
> 
> well I am the coach of the current Cadet men's recurvenational target champion, the current ladies Indoor and outdoor masters barebow champion, two members of the Junior Dream team and the youngest man in US history to win the US and World Crossbow Target championship (he's also a national class compound archer). In addition, I have won dozens of recurve, and crossbow state titles and can shoot a compound to a fairly high standard. The compound bow and the mechanical release elminates 95% of the time it takes to learn how to shoot a bow for hunting level accuracy (to be a world class compound archer takes the same dedication as to be a world class recurve archer though because the accuracy standards are so much higher).
> 
> So stop spewing crap you obviously don't have the credential to talk about. To claim that drawing through the hump of a compound bow is so hard is complete and utter BS and given that NO STATE has a minimum draw weight above 40 Pounds your use of 70 pounds is not only dishonest its complete BS.


I have a question for you and your TARGET credentials. As far as your crossbow shooters have you noticed if it's any easier for them to get the shot off without the target spooking than your vertical bow shooters. Oh wait I don't think foam is real jumpy. Target credentials usually go farther in the General archery discussion people also will take you more seriously with less bragging.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> You are wrong. the most difficult part of shooting a bow is mastering a finger release.
> 
> 
> 
> That might be true for target archery but we are talking about bowhunting (more specifically bowhunting in WI and even more specifically, crossbows in WI.) Everything I said is spot on factual. Those self evident truths are the foundation of bowhunting’ challenge. That is what we are talking about here. I agree, getting away with the draw on a paper target is not the most difficult part. In that case the release is important for maximum accuracy but even so, we are not talking about the release. I am discussing the act of drawing in the presence of game.
> 
> You will want to know that as an archery instructor myself and someone who took his first archery tournament trophy in 1979, I have a keen grasp of the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim said:
> 
> 
> 
> The compound bow and the mechanical release elminates 95% of the time it takes to learn how to shoot a bow for hunting level accuracy
> 
> 
> 
> Can you provide a link to the data set that supports or verifies your claim of 95%?
> 
> 
> 
> Jim C said:
> 
> 
> 
> (to be a world class compound archer takes the same dedication as to be a world class recurve archer though because the accuracy standards are so much higher).
> 
> 
> 
> Again, we are talking about bowhunting. Your discussions of target archery are interesting but I do wish you would stay on point.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim C said:
> 
> 
> 
> So stop spewing crap you obviously don't have the credential to talk about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would ask that you try and conduct an adult conversation without the emotional outbursts and vulgarities.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim C said:
> 
> 
> 
> To claim that drawing through the hump of a compound bow is so hard is complete and utter BS and given that NO STATE has a minimum draw weight above 40 Pounds your use of 70 pounds is not only dishonest its complete BS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because we are talking about WI, you will want to know that the min draw weight is 30 pounds and the max is based on whatever you can pull. Logic suggests that there are very few bowhunters that use 30 pounds of draw and in fact, the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association records that the average hunting bow draw weight is 56 pounds. Again, I would hope you could calm down a bit. I am not attacking you so I do see no need for your defensive actions and harsh rhetoric towards me. Lets talk In an adult manner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Since this post captured the subject matter so perfectly, I bears repeating.

The subject is crossbows in the WI archery deer season and the Conservation Congress spring hearings. 

This deer and 36 others (and a P&Y bear) will let you know that I have mastered one of the main challenges that makes bowhunting what it is. Getting away with the draw and pulling a bow to it's peak weight with only human power while game stands very near is what appeals to me and why I enjoy the challenge of bowhunting. WI already has a season for shoulder fired, cocked, scoped, weapons in which I can point, click off the safety, look through the scope and flex my index finger resting in a trigger guard in order to take a shot. I enjoy that season for what it is but bowhunting is the challenge I am looking for. The other season is for filling the freezer with as little effort as possible. In order to increase the challenge of a shoulder fired season, I try to get especially close to the prey and now I have taken to using a 50 year old, restored, bolt action shotgun with only a front bead. 


Most of the deer I have harvested with a bow have been 10 yards or less and the furthest was 18 yards. I pride myself on getting close and view bowhutning as getting as close as I can to maximize harvest potential. That challenge and being in such close quarters means the draw often times will separate success from failure. I view target archery and seeing how far I can be from the target and still hit where I aim. I like to use a homemade bow, homemade arrows, homemade broadheads, homemade finger tab and other homemade items because I want bowhunting to be as hard (read challenging) as possible. 

The effort and practice make harvesting a deer a great reward that provides a great deal of satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. The joy is in the doing. I do not seek to make bowhunting as easy and effortless as I can. I have the gun season for that. If somebody in another state wants to use a crossbow to harvest a deer and it's legal there, God bless em. I think they would better enjoy the challenge of close quarters bowhunting and all that goes into it but in todays day, there are few who want that and most hope to get a deer with as little efort as they can. Crossbows are perfect for that. In WI, it's not legal to hunt with a crossbows unless you are elderly or handicapped. WI allows those folks the superior advantages of the crossbow to compensate for their lack of physical ability to use a bow. I applaud that law and even have a 74 year old father that takes advantage of that law.










You will want to know that everything I described about getting away with the draw with game in close quarters is the same for a compound archer. If his compound is set at 70 pounds, he must pull back all 70 pounds with only the muscles of his hands, arms, back, ect. with all the motion required of an archer using a recurve or longbow. His advantage is in the last inch of draw (once he has drawn past the peak weight of 70 pounds) allows a reduced holding weight but he still pulled the weight and the required motion in close quarters in order to even have an opportunity to release his arrow. The crossbow shooter avoids the most difficult aspects of drawing and shooting game with a bow. I suppose he is able to do things (like I do while gun hunting) in order to add some difficulty or accomplishment to the release of his bolt. He too can limit himself to game harvested at only very close range or be selective in the size of the bucks he shoots or other things in an effort to add some difficulty to his task.


----------



## Shelby

Scarlet Dew said:


> How did I know your "quick switch" was a comin'................*LOL!!*
> 
> It's OK.......


Not sure how I did a "quick switch"? Explain it to me.


----------



## Redclub

Rancid, Too bad you didn't let that deer grow up, He would have been pretty nice in a year or two:mg:
Redclub


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub, after 3 and a half decades of bowunting and other larger bucks, I am proud to say I consider that buck my most memorable and rewarding harvest. I took that deer with a bow I madeh my own hands using broadheads I made myself, using arrows, I made myself. I also used a homemade finger tab and arm guard as well as homemade camo and a homemade treestand. I took that buck at 8 yards through both lungs.


I drew back my longbow and held the weight of that draw with only the power the Good Lord gave me. I did all this with that buck less than 10 yards away. My weapon was not pre-cocked, I did not shoulder it and put my finger in the trigger guard. I did not drop my cheek to the stock and look through a scope. I did not flip off a safety prior to taking the shot. I have done all those things I just described during another of Wisconsin’s seasons but find no challenge in getting off a shot on deer using those methods.


The harvest of that buck provided me with a great sense of accomplishment and satisfaction because I had to rely on only myself for the manufacture of the weaponry and a great deal of practice in order to become proficient. But you are correct, if I had waited a year or two or three, that deer would have been older and sporting a larger rack but since those attributes are inconsequential to what it is that I hoped to accomplish, it really only matters to you. I will look back and recall that day for many years and the memory of that hunt will have been based on effort and accomplishment rather than simply inches of antler.

Bowhunting is about overcoming obstacals and and practice and effort and drawing back and holding the draw until the shot presents itself and if need be, letting down and going through the draw and hold cycle all over again until the right shot is available. A crossbow will kill a deer very dead. So will lots of things. I prefer to use a bow I draw and hold because that is bowhunting. In WI the elderly and handicapped are allowed to use a crossbow and its superior advantages to compensate for there limited physical ability. That is a good law and one I support. Crossbows for the able bodied are illegal in WI during the archery deer season. that is a good law and is not expected to change.


----------



## Jim C

rutnstrut said:


> I have a question for you and your TARGET credentials. As far as your crossbow shooters have you noticed if it's any easier for them to get the shot off without the target spooking than your vertical bow shooters. Oh wait I don't think foam is real jumpy. Target credentials usually go farther in the General archery discussion people also will take you more seriously with less bragging.


You obviously don't read very well. Asked and answered.


and when clowns claim that the hardest part of bowhunting is pulling back a bow I just laugh at how stupid some are


----------



## Jim C

> Can you provide a link to the data set that supports or verifies your claim of 95%?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, we are talking about bowhunting. Your discussions of target archery are interesting but I do wish you would stay on point.
> 
> 
> 
> I would ask that you try and conduct an adult conversation without the emotional outbursts and vulgarities.
> 
> 
> 
> Because we are talking about WI, you will want to know that the min draw weight is 30 pounds and the max is based on whatever you can pull. Logic suggests that there are very few bowhunters that use 30 pounds of draw and in fact, the Wisconsin Bowhunters Association records that the average hunting bow draw weight is 56 pounds. Again, I would hope you could calm down a bit. I am not attacking you so I do see no need for your defensive actions and harsh rhetoric towards me. Lets talk In an adult manner.



95% is based on the fact that I can teach almost anyone to shoot a compound/release more accurately that a national class BB archer in less than a week. I have had several students who shoot over 250 on a NFAA indoor 300 round after a DAY. One guy shot a 274 but I confess, he was a four year varsity letter winner at the USMA as a pistol shooter. It would take a year minimum for someone to shoot a trad bow at that level and that would be training at the level that my current National Target champion does (400-800 arrows a week or more) and several months for a newbie and an olympic bow (again training 400 or more arrows a week)


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I didn't think you would be able to provide anything beyond anecdotal events. I was under the impression you were speaking on a world wide or even nation wide or even a state wide level with real proof or actual data. When you cite a percentage like your 95% claim, I would hope it would be verifiable. Why did you not choose 93% or 96%?

Since I mentioned that getting away with the draw and hold in close quarters to game is the dificult and challenging part of bowhunting, you have made the claim that I am stupid. I would prefer the term ignorant (sincce there is a difference) but I wonder still why you feel the need to make personal attacks rather than discuss the matter as a reasonable adult? Why the hostility towards those with a differing (and in my case) and very experienced point of view?


----------



## rutnstrut

Jim C said:


> 95% is based on the fact that I can teach almost anyone to shoot a compound/release more accurately that a national class BB archer in less than a week. I have had several students who shoot over 250 on a NFAA indoor 300 round after a DAY. One guy shot a 274 but I confess, he was a four year varsity letter winner at the USMA as a pistol shooter. It would take a year minimum for someone to shoot a trad bow at that level and that would be training at the level that my current National Target champion does (400-800 arrows a week or more) and several months for a newbie and an olympic bow (again training 400 or more arrows a week)


Again that's all great,but just because you have trained someone to center punch the elusive and wily foam target doesn't mean you are qualified to teach them to hunt.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I didn't think you would be able to provide anything beyond anecdotal events. I was under the impression you were speaking on a world wide or even nation wide or even a state wide level with real proof or actual data. When you cite a percentage like your 95% claim, I would hope it would be verifiable. Why did you not choose 93% or 96%?
> 
> Since I mentioned that getting away with the draw and hold in close quarters to game is the dificult and challenging part of bowhunting, you have made the claim that I am stupid. I would prefer the term ignorant (sincce there is a difference) but I wonder still why you feel the need to make personal attacks rather than discuss the matter as a reasonable adult? Why the hostility towards those with a differing (and in my case) and very experienced point of view?


lets cut the crap, you obviously are unwilling to listen to anything that upsets your anti xbow bigotry. You are stupid to claim that the "draw" is so important given that with high tree blinds, shoot thru blinds etc it really means nothing

the most important point

YOU ARE NOT OBJECTIVELY HARMED BY SOMEONE USING ANOTHER TYPE OF BOW

grow up


----------



## Jim C

rutnstrut said:


> Again that's all great,but just because you have trained someone to center punch the elusive and wily foam target doesn't mean you are qualified to teach them to hunt.


ah so you are mixing hunting skils with archery skills

thanks-that destroys the anti xbow argument

crossbows allow someone to achieve accuracy a bit faster than with a compound which of course allows obtaining accuracy far faster than trad bows

hunting skills are the same


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> lets cut the crap, you obviously are unwilling to listen to anything that upsets your anti xbow bigotry.


I am trying my hardest to engage you in an adult discussion and it’s clear that you are either incapable of this or unwilling.



Jim C said:


> You are stupid to claim that the "draw" is so important given that with high tree blinds, shoot thru blinds etc it really means nothing


Why the name calling and personal attacks? This is a discussion forum. Please calm down and stop with the rage and raw emotion. I have stated a point of view. Please participate in a discussion of the merits of the idea without focusing on the person with the idea.



Jim C said:


> the most important point
> YOU ARE NOT OBJECTIVELY HARMED BY SOMEONE USING ANOTHER TYPE OF BOW
> grow up


If you hope to change the subject, all you need to do is say you no longer want to talk about drawing a bow in the presence of game. I don’t think we have completed our discussion of the matter and would like to address it further. As far as growing up, I think you should perhaps do some self reflection. Now, if you would like to discuss this in the arena of ideas in a manner as would be done in a face to face conversation, I am happy to oblige. All you have to do is start listening and discussing without rage and emotion and attacks. Let me know if your interested.

Even though this is an anonymous method of holding a discussion, you would do well to conduct yourself in a polite and respectful manner. Talk to me as if I were sitting across a table from you rather than typing at your keyboard alone. I think then we would be able to have a discussion that would be beneficial to both of us.


----------



## Jim C

I have been dealing with the anti crossbow bigotry for over 30 years. Your attempt to claim I am being juvenile is a specious and evasive bit of nonsense serving as a facade for what truly motivates you.

YOu want to make the entire argument about "drawing" which means you see others as having an ADVANTAGE over you.

Why cannot you answer the simple question. Do you think you are in competition with other bowhunters.


An adult would answer honestly.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> I have been dealing with the anti crossbow bigotry for over 30 years. Your attempt to claim I am being juvenile is a specious and evasive bit of nonsense serving as a facade for what truly motivates you.


It would be most interesting to hear what it is you think truly motivates me. If you would be so kind as to indulge me.



Jim C said:


> YOu want to make the entire argument about "drawing" which means you see others as having an ADVANTAGE over you.


Actually, I do not wish to make the entire argument (I prefer discussion) about drawing in the presence of game. It is however ONE of the most important and compelling points in regards to the discussion of bows vs crossbows in a hunting situation in WI. Another would be the advantage allowed to the handicapped and elderly in our state. Another would be state’s rights and the voice of the majority. Another would be the present whitetailed deer population situation in our state which currently is causing friction between the current number of bowhunters (with the weapons already legal to us) and the gun hunters who grow increasingly critical of our harvests and season length. I hope to discuss this mostly from a Wisconsin perspective and while drawing in the presence of game is a huge factor, it is not the only factor in regards to expanded crossbow usage in WI. 



Jim C said:


> Why cannot you answer the simple question.


I have not seen a question from you that you have asked already that I have failed to answer. What is the simple question that I have not answered?



Jim C said:


> Do you think you are in competition with other bowhunters.


No. That is another subject matter all together and outside the scope of this discussion. It would make an interesting thread as it is not weapon specific.



Jim C said:


> An adult would answer honestly.


I do not think age factors into the answering of that question.


----------



## Jim C

each kind of bow has advantages and disadvantages. Having shot all of them extensively and having coached successful archers who have won national titles in crossbow, barebow, recurve and compound I think I can offer opinions on the learning curves of each bow. Having hunted with all four I have a perspective that the anti xbow crowd does not.

The bottom line is that while a crossbow has certain advantages over other bows, the bottom line is it does not offer an overall advantage compared to the most popular hunting bow in the USA.

and humor me as to what motivates you.

As I said, i have been dealing with anti xbow types for decades. 99% of the opposition is based on either self esteem issues or greed


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## Rancid Crabtree

Actually, It was I that asked you to provide input on what motivates me since you made a claim to know what that is. I would be happy to explain my motivations about crossbows in WI but really hoped to better understand what it is you had determined my motives are that form the basis of my opinions on crossbows in WI.

Can you provide data that supports your 99% claim? What is the other 1% based on?


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Actually, It was I that asked you to provide input on what motivates me since you made a claim to know what that is. I would be happy to explain my motivations about crossbows in WI but really hoped to better understand what it is you had determined my motives are that form the basis of my opinions on crossbows in WI.
> 
> Can you provide data that supports your 99% claim? What is the other 1% based on?


usually mental illness-seriously mental illness

but feel free to tell me

there is no legitimate reason to allow compound bows and reject crossbows

not one


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

It would appear that you are not at all interested in an adult, serious conversation of substance in regards to crossbows in WI. I gave you several opportunites to conduct yourself properly but you seem only interested in hurling insults. This would have been a good opportunity for you to gain insight in WI game laws the situation regarding the deer herd. This could have been a teachable moment and for a coach of people, I would have expected you to be interested in this.


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## willie

The "teaching moment" is "We (bowhunters) got the season and you ain't, tough titty".

Other than that your "teaching moments" is total BS..


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## vmthtr in green

I think that the argument aginst crossbows is irrelevant. I say let them hunt. I am from Wi and I bowhunt.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Such emotion and rage (all the way from Indiana) in regards to a states rights issue in WI. There is no need to curse to express your opinion in regards to crossbows in WI. Tell me. Have you bowhunted WI? Do you plan to bowhunt WI?


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> It would appear that you are not at all interested in an adult, serious conversation of substance in regards to crossbows in WI. I gave you several opportunites to conduct yourself properly but you seem only interested in hurling insults. This would have been a good opportunity for you to gain insight in WI game laws the situation regarding the deer herd. This could have been a teachable moment and for a coach of people, I would have expected you to be interested in this.


You are being immature and playing a childish game of evasion. There is no legitimate anti crossbow argument. anyone who opposes the inclusion of crossbows is beyond rational argument


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> The "teaching moment" is "We (bowhunters) got the season and you ain't, tough titty".
> 
> Other than that your "teaching moments" is total BS..


SOS-different day willie. they all deep down are the Source of ignorance


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Such emotion and rage (all the way from Indiana) in regards to a states rights issue in WI. There is no need to curse to express your opinion in regards to crossbows in WI. Tell me. Have you bowhunted WI? Do you plan to bowhunt WI?



As soon as they OK crossbows..I Until I'll keep my money at home...


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## Raymond 1

There is truly no need for crossbows to be trashed and kicked around in Wisconsin. It is bad enough to see the non-hunters kicking us hunters around. I have sold a great many Excalibur Crossbows to Vertical Bow Hunters who said, and I quote, " I will never buy or hunt with a Crossbow". And a great deal of these Bow Hunters have bought Excalibur Crossbows from me. Within a matter of weeks after stating that and after seeing what a great Archery Bow the Crossbows are. 
So as for the issue of Crossbows not being an archery bow, Let one Vertical Bow Hunter become unable to hunt with their Vertical Bow and boy watch out for the rush to buy an ARCHERY BOW, THE CROSSBOW. Most likely they will be buying an Excalibur. This is no BS. I have witnessed this in front of my own eyes. 
Raymond


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## willie

Raymond 1 said:


> There is truly no need for crossbows to be trashed and kicked around in Wisconsin. It is bad enough to see the non-hunters kicking us hunters around. I have sold a great many Excalibur Crossbows to Vertical Bow Hunters who said, and I quote, " I will never buy or hunt with a Crossbow". And a great deal of these Bow Hunters have bought Excalibur Crossbows from me. Within a matter of weeks after stating that and after seeing what a great Archery Bow the Crossbows are.
> So as for the issue of Crossbows not being an archery bow, Let one Vertical Bow Hunter become unable to hunt with their Vertical Bow and boy watch out for the rush to buy an ARCHERY BOW, THE CROSSBOW. Most likely they will be buying an Excalibur. This is no BS. I have witnessed this in front of my own eyes.
> Raymond




Raymond,

You are spot on.

Once upon a time I was just like Rancid....until I could no longer pull a hunting weight bow back and NO I do not consider 30# as hunting weight.

I ate my words, swallowed my pride and bought a crossbow.

Imagine my surprise when I found out I was just trading one piece of archery equipment for another. I was still bowhunting just like I was before. Nothing changed except the execution of the shot. The execution of the shot was not all that much of a change as I shot a 65% let off compound.

As penance for my stupidity, I have since become an advocate for crossbows in all of the archery seasons.

Now I will give RC credit for his longbow buck. That is doing it the hard way and I admire anyone that can do that. BUT - that is not the case in 99% of the archery kills. No, RC I do not have a document for that, but just form experience I can tell you that recurve and long bow killed deer are in an very extreme minority of the yearly harvest 

IF the archery season was still the "sick and string" I would be the first to admit that crossbows don't belong. But, since an overwhelming majority of bowhunters use a high let off, high tech compounds, crossbows should be able to be used too.

Regardless of what RC and his buds say there is very little difference in the modern compound bow and the crossbows. Certainly not enough to say one belongs in archery season and the other doesn't. 





__________________


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## Raymond 1

Well said Willie. You know exactly what I have stated is 100% the truth. And as all of us archery hunters age or become disabled or whatever the reasons we are not able to hunt with the Vertical bows, we will all switch to Crossbows. So there is no reasons to be trying to keep a fine archery bow as the Crossbow out of archery season. Thanks.
Raymond


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## Rancid Crabtree

The comments from Ohio, Indiana and another country are interesting but in WI, crossbows are not legal unless you are handicapped or elderly. State statute defines bows and crossbows as unique and separate weapons. If at some point in the future, the clear majority of hunters express a desire for change and advocate for crossbows to be used in the archery deer season, then perhaps a legislator will consider drafting such legislation. It is after all a state's right issue that the citizens of WI will decide. A tiny group promoted this idea in 2005 and it fell flat. Currently our deer population is in such a poor condition that I am actually hoping for a real aggressive push for crossbow so we can put to bed once and for all as the gun hunters are already upset with the deer the bowhunters are taking and since the bowhunters don't want them added, we can only hope that somebody mounts a hard push for a change to the laws.


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## Raymond 1

More BS from Rancid. Crossbows are coming and they are coming fast. There will be "NOTHING" that you or your group can do about it. We have all seen your kind in every state, province and territories. They all fall eventually and yours will also.
Raymond


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> The comments from Ohio, Indiana and another country are interesting but in WI, crossbows are not legal unless you are handicapped or elderly. State statute defines bows and crossbows as unique and separate weapons.
> 
> *Just legalese lanquage that can be changed by the stroke of a pen. Game laws are changed EVERY in just about every state, including Wisconsin *
> 
> 
> If at some point in the future, the clear majority of hunters express a desire for change and advocate for crossbows to be used in the archery deer season, then perhaps a legislator will consider drafting such legislation.
> 
> *You mean like what was decided by the congress and now your paid lobbyist is going to fight against it? The people decided but you all did not want to allow the people to decide...unless it went in your favor. Poor, RC, real poor.It is after all a state's right issue that the citizens of WI will decide. *
> 
> A tiny group promoted this idea in 2005 and it fell flat.
> *
> That "tiny group" is growing more every eyar. As the boomer generation ages you'll see that group grow even bigger.*
> 
> Currently our deer population is in such a poor condition that I am actually hoping for a real aggressive push for crossbow so we can put to bed once and for all as the gun hunters are already upset with the deer the bowhunters are taking and since the bowhunters don't want them added, we can only hope that somebody mounts a hard push for a change to the laws.
> 
> *55 today and the rest later.
> 
> We are coming RC and there is little you can do to stop us.*


....


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## INIDHA

WOW Willie!!!


I would have NEVER suspected:embara: such language from you on any message board! You are always the first one to run to a moderator......

tough titty? That from such a Christain person......:darkbeer:


----------



## S.F. steve

congrats to rancid crabtree on his buck, a guy i went to school with makes his own long bows and has taken a p+y whitetail with it. that is a very difficult thing to do. i'm a crossbow hunter myself and i have a lot of fun with it. i came home from ariz in 1996 and i had never hunted in my life. i taught my self how to hunt with my brothers crossbow and in 1999 shot a deer.ause i live in ohio i had this oppertunity. i do not care for gun hunting the bow hunting is more my cup of tea. i have neck and shoulder problems and if it wasn't for crossbows i would have went gun hunting a few times a year at the most and that would have been it . but due to the fact that crossbows are legal here i love to bow hunt and i have spent thousands of dollars on equipment, magazines etc because i was having fun. i would have never tried to teach my self how to hunt with a compound it would have been too difficult. so at the age of 36 i taught myself how to hunt and joined the hunting fraternity because crossbows were legal in this state. as the number of hunters decline you guys need to remember that crossbows give us another option that some of us NEED! and don't forget it's a lot of fun


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## Raymond 1

*Increases*

And let me add this, more revenue for Wisconsin businesses with the sale of bows and accessories, licencing, taxes and many more upsides. People coming into the state and paying big bucks to outfitters, stores, restaurants and many more businesses. I am sure that every kind of business would be increasing their profit. They would like that, they wouldn't say no to that.
Raymond


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## rutnstrut

S.F. steve said:


> congrats to rancid crabtree on his buck, a guy i went to school with makes his own long bows and has taken a p+y whitetail with it. that is a very difficult thing to do. i'm a crossbow hunter myself and i have a lot of fun with it. i came home from ariz in 1996 and i had never hunted in my life. i taught my self how to hunt with my brothers crossbow and in 1999 shot a deer.ause i live in ohio i had this oppertunity. i do not care for gun hunting the bow hunting is more my cup of tea. i have neck and shoulder problems and if it wasn't for crossbows i would have went gun hunting a few times a year at the most and that would have been it . but due to the fact that crossbows are legal here i love to bow hunt and i have spent thousands of dollars on equipment, magazines etc because i was having fun. i would have never tried to teach my self how to hunt with a compound it would have been too difficult. so at the age of 36 i taught myself how to hunt and joined the hunting fraternity because crossbows were legal in this state. as the number of hunters decline you guys need to remember that crossbows give us another option that some of us NEED! and don't forget it's a lot of fun


If some people would bother to read before they post,we already have the ability to use crossbows in Wi for those that are physically unable to use a verticle bow. This has been this way for a very long time and is a good thing. What many of us don't want or need is full crossbow inclusion for all able bodied hunters in the regular archery season.


----------



## Admiral Vixen

rutnstrut said:


> If some people would bother to read before they post,we already have the ability to use crossbows in Wi for those that are physically unable to use a verticle bow. This has been this way for a very long time and is a good thing. What many of us don't want or need is full crossbow inclusion for all able bodied hunters in the regular archery season.


What many of us don't want is for the rifle season to keep taking away from our archery season.(youth hunt, doe only, holiday hunt,No crossbow season, that kind of crap) Let them hunt the late season giving the archers back the season we once had. Beside we already have crossbow hunters via vets, elderly, and so on. BUT LET"S BE REAL THE DNR GIVITH THE DNR TAKEITH AWAY! Do you really think your vote (COUNTS)? Not for answer, we know who is in control.


----------



## Raymond 1

Crossbows are an Archery Bow and has been around longer than the compound bow, Most hunters that are hunting in the Archery Season uses compound bows. And as I stated CROSSBOWS are coming and there is NOTHING that you SELFISH HUNTERS will be able to do about it.


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> WOW Willie!!!
> 
> 
> I would have NEVER suspected:embara: such language from you on any message board! You are always the first one to run to a moderator......




"Tough titty" is a bad word? Since when? 

Maybe in your mind?

'"Tough titty," said the kitty when the milk ran dry.'

Even in a child's a fairy tale ..

http://www.authorama.com/english-fairy-tales-18.html




> tough titty? That from such a Christain person......:darkbeer:



Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged."



.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Raymond 1 said:


> Crossbows are an Archery Bow and has been around longer than the compound bow, Most hunters that are hunting in the Archery Season uses compound bows. And as I stated CROSSBOWS are coming and there is NOTHING that you SELFISH HUNTERS will be able to do about it.


Ain't wishing and hoping great?? Go with that. :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_rolf2: :set1_applaud: :set1_applaud: :set1_applaud: :set1_applaud: :set1_applaud:


----------



## willie

Admiral Vixen said:


> What many of us don't want is for the rifle season to keep taking away from our archery season.(youth hunt, doe only, holiday hunt,No crossbow season, that kind of crap) Let them hunt the late season giving the archers back the season we once had. Beside we already have crossbow hunters via vets, elderly, and so on. BUT LET"S BE REAL THE DNR GIVITH THE DNR TAKEITH AWAY! Do you really think your vote (COUNTS)? Not for answer, we know who is in control.


Since it appears that in Wisconsin you all get to vote on what is what in any given seasons the number of gun hunters can over ride the number of bowhunters, right?

The bowhunters best bet would be to get crossbows OKed for all of archery season and then they would have a LOT more help staving off gun hunters who just might want a piece of the early archery season pie.

Think about it..


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Ain't wishing and hoping great?? Go with that.



RC,

There will come a day when you eat your words. Hopefully I'll still be kicking and reading here. Us crossbowers are a patient lot...must be the bowhunter in us.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Raymond 1 said:


> More BS from Rancid. Crossbows are coming and they are coming fast. There will be "NOTHING" that you or your group can do about it. We have all seen your kind in every state, province and territories. They all fall eventually and yours will also.
> Raymond



Thanks Canada. :canada: Your concerns are noted. :usa:


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

willie said:


> RC,
> 
> There will come a day when you eat your words. Hopefully I'll still be kicking and reading here.



Still kicking? Does that mean you will have abandoned the screaming part that you seem to fancy right now? :rant:


----------



## INIDHA

Rancid Crabtree:

The comments from Willie are constant from site to site and state to state. If you have the time check out Kentucky, Georgia, Michigan and any other state forum when it comes to crossbow. He is the public advocate for the crossbow industry.

Push for a crossbow license to guage impact and interest and watch him whine.............

Good luck, I'll just repeat......... he is not as rude when he posts on sites in his home state. Easy to be rude when you will never meeet people face to face.......


----------



## Jim C

INIDHA said:


> Rancid Crabtree:
> 
> The comments from Willie are constant from site to site and state to state. If you have the time check out Kentucky, Georgia, Michigan and any other state forum when it comes to crossbow. He is the public advocate for the crossbow industry.
> 
> Push for a crossbow license to guage impact and interest and watch him whine.............
> 
> Good luck, I'll just repeat......... he is not as rude when he posts on sites in his home state. Easy to be rude when you will never meeet people face to face.......


Wonder what happens when Xbows are the dominant bow. Should they treat the people who wanted to keep them out charitably.

Believe me being against accuracy is not a winning argument with the public at large


----------



## INIDHA

I want to reply to Willie's comment of needing the crossbow people to stave off gun hunters in archery seasons...............

Willie would have people believe that with crossbow hunters in the archers ranks it would produce a larger group to block any gun hunting in archery seasons. When you look at who the crossbow atracts it is the gun hunter who does not want to practice with archery equipment or is atracted by the stock, scope and trigger of a crossbow. These people are already looking for the easy and most effective hunting tool in any season, if not they would already be using a bow(read vertical) be it traditional or compound. Why would they not support a far superior tool a firearm of some type if it is proposed? They wont!

Also you have to look towards your game department and deer biologists, they have a responsibility to manage the wildlife for ALL people and not just deer hunters of any type. If they choose to introduce firearms into any archery season they must use science and forget personal feelings. In Indiana we are about to introduce a new antlerless season into the early archery season that WILL include all legal Indiana hunting firearms. They are using the most effective tool to reduce specific deer populations.

For Willie to claim you will get support to stave off firearms in any archery season from a predominate gun hunter is pure BUNK! The firearm hunter will jump from crossbow to firearm as wil lthe DNR's of your state.


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Still kicking? Does that mean you will have abandoned the screaming part that you seem to fancy right now? :rant:


Not "screaming" at all. I'm just telling you whatr will be.

Not too long ago the same thing you are preaching was going on in Michigan. "Crossbows will NEVER be legalized here for the archery seoans".

Guess what? 

It happened....... and a lot of folks are eating their words..


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> Rancid Crabtree:
> 
> The comments from Willie are constant from site to site and state to state. If you have the time check out Kentucky, Georgia, Michigan and any other state forum when it comes to crossbow. He is the public advocate for the crossbow industry.
> 
> *Uh, make that a public advocate for crossbows, period. That old song and dance about the "crossbow industry" is just that..a bunch of hooey. I was on the fence in the PCR debate until I examined all aspects and I became a PCR advocate. You think maybe the PCR industry paid me off? LMAO.. Yeah, same old Joe. He cant debate so he demonizes.
> 
> But you did miss a few states.. :wink: *
> 
> Push for a crossbow license to guage impact and interest and watch him whine.............
> 
> *You still haven't answered why it is necessary to "guage impact and interest" of crossbows when the IDNR has never asked for any license to "guage impact and interest" of ANY hunting tool. As you well know the IDNR OKed the use of Pistol Cartridge Rifles and did not ask for a PCR license to "guage impact and interest". No, your request for a "crossbow license" is a stalling tactic. Crossbow inclusion is inevitable. As I said, we are patient.*


...........


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> I want to reply to Willie's comment of needing the crossbow people to stave off gun hunters in archery seasons...............
> 
> Willie would have people believe that with crossbow hunters in the archers ranks it would produce a larger group to block any gun hunting in archery seasons.
> 
> *Yes, it will help. You've been at this long enough to know that sheer numbers count with the NRC and the IDNR.*
> 
> When you look at who the crossbow atracts it is the gun hunter who does not want to practice with archery equipment or is atracted by the stock, scope and trigger of a crossbow. These people are already looking for the easy and most effective hunting tool in any season, if not they would already be using a bow(read vertical) be it traditional or compound. Why would they not support a far superior tool a firearm of some type if it is proposed? They wont!
> 
> *Your proof of those statements is what? Show us some verifiable data.*
> 
> Also you have to look towards your game department and deer biologists, they have a responsibility to manage the wildlife for ALL people and not just deer hunters of any type. If they choose to introduce firearms into any archery season they must use science and forget personal feelings. In Indiana we are about to introduce a new antlerless season into the early archery season that WILL include all legal Indiana hunting firearms. They are using the most effective tool to reduce specific deer populations.
> 
> *Yes, firearms are the most effective hunting tool. No one will disagree with you on that. But, isn't it a shame that the Indiana deer biologists were forced into doing what they are doing? Did you ever think that just maybe IF crossbows had been legalized 5 years ago that this mess would not be as messy as it is now?*
> 
> For Willie to claim you will get support to stave off firearms in any archery season from a predominate gun hunter is pure BUNK!
> 
> *Why wouldn't they stand up for keeping archery as an archery seasons?? They are, after all, using archery equipment.*
> 
> The firearm hunter will jump from crossbow to firearm as wil lthe DNR's of your state.
> 
> *I don't follow you on that statement. " jump from crossbow to firearm"??
> 
> Only in the firearm season JUST LIKE THE VERTICAL BOWHUNTERS DO NOW.*



..........


----------



## INIDHA

It's simple Willie....... you are trying to convince people that crossbow hunters will stand beside the archery hunters to keep firearms out of an archery season. the crossbow hunter is predominately a gun hunter, when it comes time for a gun to be used in ANY archery season he/she will support the gun. Longer range, more effective , they will welcome the use of their trusty firestick. You know that, but in your hell be damned to destroy all archery seasons you'll sacrifice everything for crossbow. Your real angst is that to use the crossbow you had to get a disabled permit(which you need), you hate the moniker it carries. As said all along, we never were/are against the people needing to use one. Nor are we against the crossbow having a season, but it must have a license that recognizes it as a seperate weapon.

You don't want that, because you know the usage would remain limited and you can't expand on facts, you have to use force and false statements to get it approved in any state. 

You smiled and had a wink above on how many states you have commented and intervened on behalf of the crossbow. Yet when Indiana's deer survey was posted you were whining at the thought a non resident could comment. Kind of two faced isn't it? Now before you go off on a management tangent remeber you say it is a management tool........


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> It's simple Willie....... you are trying to convince people that crossbow hunters will stand beside the archery hunters to keep firearms out of an archery season. the crossbow hunter is predominately a gun hunter, when it comes time for a gun to be used in ANY archery season he/she will support the gun. Longer range, more effective , they will welcome the use of their trusty firestick.
> 
> *Joe, You had posted in anotehr thread to me with "Your days of spreading false statements here are over. Back it up with facts or don't post them."
> 
> I'm asking you to do the same thing. Show us any verifiable data from any state that the "crossbow hunter is predominately a gun hunter",..
> 
> Fish or cut bait..*
> 
> You know that, but in your hell be damned to destroy all archery seasons you'll sacrifice everything for crossbow.
> 
> *Please provide proof again... Where have I ever said anything about "destroy(ing) all archery seasons? While you are at it please point to any state that has included crossbows in the archery seasons where there was any negative effect at all, much less "destroy all archery seasons." *
> 
> Your real angst is that to use the crossbow you had to get a disabled permit(which you need), you hate the moniker it carries. As said all along, we never were/are against the people needing to use one.
> 
> *Bullchips. You do not know anything about me and my physical limitations or if I hate the moniker it carries or not. You make crap up like this all the time with absolutely nothing to back it up. Since I started hunting with a crossbow I have discovered it is just another archery hunting tool that is not a whole lot easier to master that that compound bow that you shoot and hunt with. This ain’t about me Joe. This is about giving bowhunters another choice in archery hunting gear. One that has a proven track record for recruiting youths and women and retaining older hunters. Dispute that Joe..*
> 
> Nor are we against the crossbow having a season, but it must have a license that recognizes it as a seperate weapon.
> 
> *More Bullchips.. You’re on record, and you know it, as saying that NO ONE should be able to us a crossbow in the state of Indiana AT ANY TIME except the physically challenged. Did you not post that?
> 
> It is not a separate hunting tool. It is universally recognized as archery equipment by REAL archery organizations, just not your “bowhunter groups”, that want the archey seasons all for themselves..*
> 
> 
> You don't want that, because you know the usage would remain limited and you can't expand on facts, you have to use force and false statements to get it approved in any state.
> 
> *What “force” and what “false facts?”
> 
> Let’s compare “facts..” *
> 
> You smiled and had a wink above on how many states you have commented and intervened on behalf of the crossbow. Yet when Indiana's deer survey was posted you were whining at the thought a non resident could comment. Kind of two faced isn't it?
> 
> *As I said I am a "public advocate" for crossbows. I provide crossbow information to those crossbow advocates in other states that ask for it. I do not send any other state’s DNRs or legislatures any input whatsoever. That is a big difference in what I do and what Scarlet Dew was doing. He was on here and other sites recruiting bowhunters to fill out the survey to get the gun season moved. Remember on your site you asked for the members not to pit one hunting group against the other? I guess that only counts for the other side, right?*
> 
> Now before you go off on a management tangent remeber you say it is a management tool........
> 
> *Yes, it is a management tool. Every bit as good as the compound bow. Maybe more so in UDZs.*


.........


----------



## INIDHA

"More Bullchips.. You’re on record, and you know it, as saying that NO ONE should be able to us a crossbow in the state of Indiana AT ANY TIME except the physically challenged. Did you not post that?"

Well you need to become more informed, I am on record as supporting the 64 and over in early archery season, with the provision of an archery license. Here is your delima......... you have to support the license to get it approved.

Georgia showed a drop in early archery season after the crossbow, women kids and older hunters must not have made up enough of the loss of archers.

Willie, if it is not crossover gun hunters who uses the crossbow? It is not vertical bowhunters....

I'll stand by my statement and your problem with disabled, you forget I know people also. Just like your hiding of involvement in the crossbow industry and commenting on crossbow in other states.... You stick to your stories.


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> "More Bullchips.. You’re on record, and you know it, as saying that NO ONE should be able to us a crossbow in the state of Indiana AT ANY TIME except the physically challenged. Did you not post that?"
> 
> Well you need to become more informed, I am on record as supporting the 64 and over in early archery season, with the provision of an archery license. Here is your delima......... you have to support the license to get it approved.
> 
> *When did you see the light on that one, Joe? When you all knew that crossbows are coming and you all are doing the "throw the dog a bone" to keep them at bay. Nothing more and nothing less..age 64 is way too late to retain older hunters...10 to 15 years too late... You all should know that IF you studied it at all. *
> 
> Georgia showed a drop in early archery season after the crossbow, women kids and older hunters must not have made up enough of the loss of archers.
> 
> *Hmm.. From the Georgia DNR..
> 
> “Crossbows were listed statutorily as legal archery equipment for hunting in 2002. They could be legally used without a permit during the 2002-2003 hunting season. Prior to the statutory simplification and the 2002-2003 hunting season, crossbows could only be used by disabled persons with a permit. The Department has issued approximately 3,000 such permits.
> 
> During the inaugural 2002-2003 season, a total of 97,392 deer hunters indicated that they hunted with archery equipment and, of those, 17,322 indicated they hunted with a crossbow.
> 
> During the 2003-2004 season, a total of 96,723 deer hunters indicated that they hunted with archery equipment and, of those, 23,919 indicated they hunted with a crossbow.
> 
> During the 2004-2005 season, a total of 88,667 deer hunters indicated that they hunted with archery equipment and, of those, 22,730 indicated they hunted with a crossbow.
> 
> During the 2005-2006 season, a total of 81,050 deer hunters indicated that they hunted with archery equipment and, of those, 21,454 indicated they hunted with a crossbow.
> 
> During the 2006-2007 season, a total of 78,640 deer hunters indicated that they hunted with archery equipment. This year, we dropped the questions pertaining crossbow use and crossbow harvest. Acquisition of this information on annual basis was not a necessity. However, we may ask these questions periodically simply to maintain long-term trend information.
> 
> During the 2007-2008 season, a total of 93,703 deer hunters indicated that they hunted with archery equipment.”
> 
> NOW - The last correspondence I had with John Bowers at the Georgia DNR he said, ”Archery hunter numbers seemed to decline between 2005-2007; however, we believe archery hunter estimates were under represented because our license year had changed in the prior years from a set license year (April 1-March 31) to a 12 months from date of purchase license year. Prior to that time period, we average about 95,000 archery hunters.
> 
> It took us about two years to adjust our statistical sampling procedures in response to the changed license year so that we could capture all archery hunters who had a valid license during the archery deer season. This is reflected in the 2007-2008 season when archery hunters increased to about 94,000. Thus, we believe that actual archery hunter numbers were in the low 90,000s during the 2005-2007 seasons."
> 
> How about Ohio? Ohio is a crossbow success story. From the ODNR – “….The national average is 28% of the hunters use archery equipment. In Ohio it is 36% of the hunters use * vertical bows* which is 8% HIGHER than the national average. In Ohio we get them started with crossbows, they go to vertical and then come back to crossbows as they age.”
> 
> From Ohio - Ohio Division of Wildlife Chief Budzik also said the following:
> 
> "The crossbow has probably allowed us to recruit new hunters into our ranks because of the ease and convenience that crossbows offer over longbows (includes recurves and compounds). Many hunters feel that the crossbow is safer and easier to master than the longbow. We believe the crossbow has allowed for recruitment of new hunters in several categories - young hunters, women hunters, hunters with disabilities, and older hunters . Many longbow hunters have switched to crossbows because they do not have the time required to become and stay proficient with a vertical bow."
> 
> WW – WHAT? No mention of "predominately GUN HUNTERS"?
> 
> Where is your proof, Joe?
> 
> 
> Recruiting the young into archery...
> 
> Here's a breakdown of the Ohio archery harvest for hunters between the ages of 10-21 for the 2007-2008 season:
> 
> Age 10 - 95% crossbow, 5% vertical bow
> Age 11 - 91% crossbow, 9% vertical bow
> Age 12 - 86% crossbow, 14% vertical bow
> Age 13 - 75% crossbow, 25% vertical bow
> Age 14 - 74% crossbow, 26% vertical bow
> Age 15 - 65% crossbow, 35% vertical bow
> Age 16 - 56% crossbow, 44% vertical bow
> Age 17 - 50% crossbow, 50% vertical bow
> Age 18 - 46% crossbow, 54% vertical bow
> Age 19 - 44% crossbow, 56% vertical bow
> Age 20 - 41% crossbow, 59% vertical bow
> Age 21 - 38% crossbow, 62% vertical bow
> 
> These results illustrate the natural progression from crossbows to vertical bows that occurs with the youth in Ohio. That IS recruitment of new hunters.*
> 
> Willie, if it is not crossover gun hunters who uses the crossbow? It is not vertical bowhunters....
> 
> *No, no... you made a statement. Back it up with facts.*
> 
> I'll stand by my statement and your problem with disabled, you forget I know people also.
> 
> *Well you and the "people that you know" are dead wrong.*
> 
> Just like your hiding of involvement in the crossbow industry and commenting on crossbow in other states.... You stick to your stories.
> 
> *OK…I’ll say it…Put up or shut up*


..............


----------



## INIDHA

It is OK Willie, you just dodge the questions and move the ball when you know you have been caught in the cookie jar. We both know that there is a large movement of gun hunters to crossbow in EVERY state it has been approved in.

Please explain how Georgia has lost hunters in early archery season since the crossbow was allowed... You wanted facts, you know about this don't you?


----------



## Jim C

INIDHA said:


> It is OK Willie, you just dodge the questions and move the ball when you know you have been caught in the cookie jar. We both know that there is a large movement of gun hunters to crossbow in EVERY state it has been approved in.
> 
> Please explain how Georgia has lost hunters in early archery season since the crossbow was allowed... You wanted facts, you know about this don't you?


so what, and in states that don't allow crossbows there are large numbers of gun hunters using the almost as easy to master compound bows. 

tell me hotshot, how are you affected by what sort of bow another hunter uses

your type never wants to answer that question honestly


----------



## S.F. steve

in reply to rutnstrut on his4-26 post;in order to apply for a handicap permit you have to go to a doctor and you are going to have x-rays at the very least. this requires either health insurance or a bank roll. and just because an hour worth of practice with a compound makes you very uncomfortable does not mean you qualify for a handicap permit. if money is tight you are not going to bother spending money on doctors so you can hunt with a crossbow. gun hunting is not for everybody either. how many 12 year olds stay home during gun season because mom tells dad he is sleeping on the couch if junior goes gun hunting. last week here in ohio a teenage boy killed his dad while trying to unload a shotgun after turkey hunting. i have a feeling a lot of parents feel more comfortable with the kids bow hunting then gun hunting. no crossbows mean fewer new hunters and fewer people over 50 hunting. you guys spend too much time with this issue. why don't you all band together and try too stamp out poaching. if you could accomplish that we will all have nice bucks on the wall. i'll shoot mine with a crossbow.


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> It is OK Willie, you just dodge the questions and move the ball when you know you have been caught in the cookie jar. We both know that there is a large movement of gun hunters to crossbow in EVERY state it has been approved in.


C'mon Joe.. Put up some verifiable data on the gun hunters..You cant do it can you? You just polly parrot the anti-crossbow talking points, don't you? No back up facts at all.

That is what I really like about you Joe. You cherry pick what questions you answer and never back up what you post. You're not an honsest debater.



> Please explain how Georgia has lost hunters in early archery season since the crossbow was allowed... You wanted facts, you know about this don't you?


Did you not ready John Bower's explantion of the "seemed loss"?

How about this - John Bowers at the Georgia DNR said”, “ Generally, all hunter numbers have been declining for several years and this decline is not specific to Georgia - it is a nationwide issue. In Georgia, it does appear that recently the decline has somewhat slowed and appears to have somewhat stabilized.”

Loss of hutners is not just in the early archery seasons? How about loss every season?.

So, are you telling me that *IF* Georgia had not added 20,000 crossbowers the archery numbers (that include crossbowers)would *NOT* have declined? Funny math, Joe.

I'm going turkey huntng, but I do have more later. Hopefully I can get you to answer *SOME* questions instead of this tip toeing around them and then cherry picjking the ones that you want to answer and ignoring the rest.


----------



## Dchiefransom

rutnstrut said:


> There are already laws in place for the elderly and disabled. The only reason most want *compounds* for all is that they are easier.


There, I fixed it for you.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Allow me to provide some data about this issue in WI so those outside (and even those inside) WI can understand the situation.

This is of course a state's rights issue meaning it's up to the citizens of the state to make the call. The citizens have been asked on numerous occasions to provide their input on allowing crossbows for every person in the archery deer season. The DNR has asked, The Conservation Congress has asked, Newspapers have asked, WBH has asked. Aside from the WBH survey, all others were open to every person who cared to respond.

The DNR asks every 4 years during it's Bowhunters survey mailed to 10,000 random Bowhunters across the state. You will want to know that 60% oppose the idea. The new DNR Bowhunter survey results for 2010 should be out soon and I anticipate there will be roughly 58% to 50% again that are opposed to the idea.

The last time the Conservation Congress asked the question about unrestricted crossbow use for all, (2005) it failed.

Wisconsin's most circulated hunting newspaper conducted a poll about a year and a half ago. The question was: ""Do you think crossbows should be legalized for use during the archery deer season?" The result was 70% no, 30% yes.

WBH surveyed it's members this spring and asked the same question the DNR is asking for its Bowhunter survey. The question is: "Do you support making the crossbow a legal weapon for use during the archery deer season for any Wisconsin archery hunter?"

The results are 79.4% opposed, 20.6% in favor.

Every time the question about full intrusion has been asked, it has not been supported by hunters. 2 weeks ago, the Conservation Congress asked sportsmen if they support the idea of lowering the legal crossbow age from 65 to 55. If they were really widespread support of unrestricted crossbow usage for all hunters of all ages, this question should have certainly been a slam dunk. The results showed a close split of 53% in favor to 47% opposed to lower the age to 55. This tells us that crossbows for every person is still opposed by the sportsmen of WI. This cannot be denied. When asked, the majority oppose the idea of full intrusion here in WI.

The current deer population situation exacerbates the situation because hunters are quarrelling over season length and tags for the remaining deer. As I have explained already, there have been calls for shortening the bow season and moving the gun season up into the rut and removing the antlerless tag from the Bowhunters license. These are all restrictions on Bowhunters that are taking place WITHOUT crossbows being added to the general population. Hunters are not looking for additional ways (and hunters) to kill even more deer. They are looking to kill fewer. Many have taken to closing their lands. 

Aside from that, a review of license sales for Bowhunters in WI from the DNR web site shows no reduction in participation. Bowhunters are at near record numbers. The participation in Bowhunting is strong and not in any way suffering a loss. This is because nobody in WI is excluded from partisipating in the archery deer season. Every person that wishes too can bowhutn WI.

The data from 1966 to 2008

year.............. Archery deer licenses sold

1966........................85,114

1970.......................101,573

1980.......................155,386

1990........................216,981

2000........................258,002

2008........................259,921 (318 less that the record year of 2001)

As the liaison between WBH and the state legislature, making sure lawmakers and the Natural Resources Board are aware of these survey results and the public opinion of crossbows in the archery deer season and that of Bowhunting in WI is important so that they are kept aware of the voice of the hunting public in WI. 

I'm certain some here (mostly from other states) don't want to know any of this and wish it were not so but the situation is what it is and the opinions of hunters in WI is what it is. some here subscribe to the idea that crossbows are always the right answer for every state without regard for herd status, Bowhunter participation and resident opinions on crossbows. For the many non-residents on this site that have a very strong opinion about WI crossbow laws, (I can't understand why they care) this is an obvious source of anger and frustration. You can't fathom why on earth WI does not allow crossbows. I hope you now have a better understanding of why. I know our legislature understands quite well. That is my job. As distasteful as you think it is, reporting the this data to them is what I have been charged to do. I serve at the enjoyment of the members. I am an active volunteer that does the job the members ask me to do. 

If the members supported crossbows, and if the general public supported crossbows and if there was a surplus or over abundant deer herd statewide and if Bowhunter numbers were plummeting, then you would be justified in disliking me and my role but the data is all right there. If at some point, the situation changes and the clear majority of WI sportsmen support full inctrusion and the herd rebounds and Bowhunter numbers plummet, then we can talk about our work at the state Capital and our lobbyist. Until then, you will understand that I the opinions of non-resident crossbow supporters means nothing. In fact, they have not invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care about the pro-crossbow crowd in OH, ID, PA and especially "Oh Canada" 

The best thing that could happen in WI is a very aggressive push for crossbows. :rant:

The timing is perfect to kill this idea for a good long time. I can only hope that out of state interests become engaged and very aggressive. :rant:


----------



## Dchiefransom

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Allow me to provide some data about this issue in WI so those outside (and even those inside) WI can understand the situation.
> 
> 
> . For the many non-residents on this site that have a very strong opinion about WI crossbow laws, (I can't understand why they care) this is an obvious source of anger and frustration. You can't fathom why on earth WI does not allow crossbows. I hope you now have a better understanding of why. I know our legislature understands quite well. That is my job. As distasteful as you think it is, reporting the this data to them is what I have been charged to do. I serve at the enjoyment of the members. I am an active volunteer that does the job the members ask me to do.
> 
> Until then, you will understand that I the opinions of non-resident crossbow supporters means nothing. In fact, they have not invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care about the pro-crossbow crowd in OH, ID, PA and especially "Oh Canada"


This thread was posted on the WORLD WIDE WEB. If you don't want comments from people outside of Wisconsin, then post it on a site that's available only to residents of Wisconsin. Until then, we could care less what people in Wisconsin think of people from other areas of the WORLD making comments about policies in Wisconsin on a site available to the entire world.


----------



## willie

Did not the WI Conservation Congress vote to include anyone 55 and over in the use of crossbows?

Is not your bowhunter group *paying* a lobbiest to try and change that?

What happened to your "let the people decide"?

Oh, that's right. That was *BEFORE THE VOTE was taken...*


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Allow me to provide some data about this issue in WI so those outside (and even those inside) WI can understand the situation.
> 
> This is of course a state's rights issue meaning it's up to the citizens of the state to make the call. The citizens have been asked on numerous occasions to provide their input on allowing crossbows for every person in the archery deer season. The DNR has asked, The Conservation Congress has asked, Newspapers have asked, WBH has asked. Aside from the WBH survey, all others were open to every person who cared to respond.
> 
> The DNR asks every 4 years during it's Bowhunters survey mailed to 10,000 random Bowhunters across the state. You will want to know that 60% oppose the idea. The new DNR Bowhunter survey results for 2010 should be out soon and I anticipate there will be roughly 58% to 50% again that are opposed to the idea.
> 
> *Very unbiased group - bowhunters.. LOL.. Why do they not send that survey to all ALL WI hunters. They just might get a truer feel of what the ALL WI hunters want and not just a sub-group.
> *
> The last time the Conservation Congress asked the question about unrestricted crossbow use for all, (2005) it failed.
> 
> *LOTS has happened in the last 5 years.*
> 
> Wisconsin's most circulated hunting newspaper conducted a poll about a year and a half ago. The question was: ""Do you think crossbows should be legalized for use during the archery deer season?" The result was 70% no, 30% yes.
> 
> *Yes, another kill your cookies and vote, vote, vote.. proxy programs can be set up and one does not even have to click the buttons.*
> 
> WBH surveyed it's members this spring and asked the same question the DNR is asking for its Bowhunter survey. The question is: "Do you support making the crossbow a legal weapon for use during the archery deer season for any Wisconsin archery hunter?"
> 
> The results are 79.4% opposed, 20.6% in favor.
> 
> *Well, no kidding. In such a group I am surprised you got 20.6% in favor. Have they been excommuncated yet?*
> 
> Every time the question about full intrusion has been asked,
> 
> * "Intrusion"? Spoken like a true crossbow hater. Why do you hate an inantimate hunting tool? Is it a threat to you?*
> 
> ........it has not been supported by hunters. 2 weeks ago, the Conservation Congress asked sportsmen if they support the idea of lowering the legal crossbow age from 65 to 55. If they were really widespread support of unrestricted crossbow usage for all hunters of all ages, this question should have certainly been a slam dunk. The results showed a close split of 53% in favor to 47% opposed to lower the age to 55.
> 
> *"Split"? LMAO.. if it was the other way around you would be beAting your chest and saying,"MANDATE! MANDATE! WE WON! WE WON!".
> 
> Now your group has sicced a paid lobbiest on the legislature to try and head this off. Shame, shame, shame. Whatb happened to your statement of "let the people decide"*
> 
> This tells us that crossbows for every person is still opposed by the sportsmen of WI. This cannot be denied. When asked, the majority oppose the idea of full intrusion here in WI.
> 
> *Show us a survey of ALL the hunters in WI and not just the bowhunters and an easily manipualted online poll. *
> 
> The current deer population situation exacerbates the situation because hunters are quarrelling over season length and tags for the remaining deer. As I have explained already, there have been calls for shortening the bow season and moving the gun season up into the rut and removing the antlerless tag from the Bowhunters license. These are all restrictions on Bowhunters that are taking place WITHOUT crossbows being added to the general population. Hunters are not looking for additional ways (and hunters) to kill even more deer. They are looking to kill fewer. Many have taken to closing their lands.
> 
> *Last I looked the WI DNR says that the deer herd is still too many. Who should everyone believe - you or the WI DNR deer biologist that are deer educated and get paid to manage the deer? I guess the arm chair biologists overrule the real ones in WI?? *
> 
> Aside from that, a review of license sales for Bowhunters in WI from the DNR web site shows no reduction in participation. Bowhunters are at near record numbers. The participation in Bowhunting is strong and not in any way suffering a loss. This is because nobody in WI is excluded from partisipating in the archery deer season. Every person that wishes too can bowhutn WI.
> 
> The data from 1966 to 2008
> 
> year.............. Archery deer licenses sold
> 
> 1966........................85,114
> 
> 1970.......................101,573
> 
> 1980.......................155,386
> 
> 1990........................216,981
> 
> 2000........................258,002
> 
> 2008........................259,921 (318 less that the record year of 2001)
> 
> *Of which only "58% to 50% again that are opposed to the idea". We are n moving in on you RC...
> 
> Look over to Ohio where their bowhunters top 350,000. I'll bet the majority there like crossbws too..*
> 
> As the liaison between WBH and the state legislature, making sure lawmakers and the Natural Resources Board are aware of these survey results and the public opinion of crossbows in the archery deer season and that of Bowhunting in WI is important so that they are kept aware of the voice of the hunting public in WI.
> 
> *Are you going to make them aware that the over 55 passed the WI Conservation Congress or are you going to spin that as a "split"? LMAO..*
> 
> I'm certain some here (mostly from other states) don't want to know any of this and wish it were not so but the situation is what it is and the opinions of hunters in WI is what it is. some here subscribe to the idea that crossbows are always the right answer for every state without regard for herd status, Bowhunter participation and resident opinions on crossbows. For the many non-residents on this site that have a very strong opinion about WI crossbow laws, (I can't understand why they care) this is an obvious source of anger and frustration. You can't fathom why on earth WI does not allow crossbows. I hope you now have a better understanding of why. I know our legislature understands quite well. That is my job. As distasteful as you think it is, reporting the this data to them is what I have been charged to do. I serve at the enjoyment of the members. I am an active volunteer that does the job the members ask me to do.
> 
> *Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back..*
> 
> If the members supported crossbows, and if the general public supported crossbows and if there was a surplus or over abundant deer herd statewide and if Bowhunter numbers were plummeting, then you would be justified in disliking me and my role but the data is all right there. If at some point, the situation changes and the clear majority of WI sportsmen support full inctrusion and the herd rebounds and Bowhunter numbers plummet, then we can talk about our work at the state Capital and our lobbyist. Until then, you will understand that I the opinions of non-resident crossbow supporters means nothing. In fact, they have not invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care about the pro-crossbow crowd in OH, ID, PA and especially "Oh Canada"
> 
> *One more - Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back..*
> 
> The best thing that could happen in WI is a very aggressive push for crossbows. :rant:
> 
> The timing is perfect to kill this idea for a good long time. I can only hope that out of state interests become engaged and very aggressive. :rant:
> 
> *How about just a push by gunhunters to take over part of the archery season?
> 
> Choice for you =- something that goes THUMP and shoots an arrow or something that goes BOOM! *




................


----------



## willie

RC,

Ya think just maybe the requirement of the over 65 age crossbowers to buy ARCHERY TAGS might have a little something to do with the increase in number of archery tags sold?


----------



## willie

*Questions for INidha..*


1) You still haven't answered why it is necessary to "guage impact and interest" of crossbows when the IDNR has never asked for any license to "guage impact and interest" of ANY hunting tool. As you well know the IDNR OKed the use of Pistol Cartridge Rifles and did not ask for a PCR license to "guage impact and interest"

Why now with crossbows?

*ANSWER -*


2) Inidha stated about me - He is the public advocate for the crossbow industry. And Just like your hiding of involvement in the crossbow industry and commenting on crossbow in other states..

Please document anything about me and the crossbow industry. Please document any commenting, other than the websites “in other states.” 

*ANSWER -*


3) INidha.. said “When you look at who the crossbow atracts it is the gun hunter who does not want to practice with archery equipment or is atracted by the stock, scope and trigger of a crossbow.”

I asked - Show us any verifiable data from any state that the "crossbow hunter is predominately a gun hunter.

*ANSWER -*


4)Inidha said that I wanted to “destroy all archery season”. I asked - Where have I ever said anything about "destroy(ing) all archery seasons? While you are at it please point to any state that has included crossbows in the archery seasons where there was any negative effect at all, much less "destroy all archery seasons."

Still waiting..

*ANSWER -*


5)INidha..Your real angst is that to use the crossbow you had to get a disabled permit(which you need), you hate the moniker it carries.

Now Inidha can read my mind and tell what my feelings are on “disabled permits”? Please tell me how you think that you know this? 

Want my real feelings of “disabled permits”? *They shouldn’t exist at all.* EVERYONE should be able to use a crossbow in the archery season.

*ANSWER -*


6)INidha.. "I am on record as supporting the 64 and over in early archery season, with the provision of an archery license."

I asked - *When did you see the light on that one, Inidha?* Up until the recent “deer meetings” he has been against crossbow for anyone except the physically challenged in any season. Even in I the present crossbow seasons.

The man genuinely hates crossbows.

*ANSWER -*


7) I asked - So, are you telling me that IF Georgia had not added 20,000 crossbowers the archery numbers (that include crossbowers)would NOT have declined? 

Please answer how adding people caused a drop in numbers.. this should be good.

*ANSWER -*


There you are. The questions that have been asked an dodged.

I would like to add one more.

8) You said once that a hunter on your ground uses a crossbow. Does his hunting negatively effect your hunting? Would his hunting with a crossbow negatively effect your hunting *IF* he was not physically challenged and that was legal?

Getting answers here is tougher than this turkey hunting I'm doing now..Lack of birds is almost as bad as the lack of answers..:wink: 





.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Clearly Willie, you have no clue about the Conservation Congress. They did not vote anything into law. The CC is a citizen advisory board that is tasked with taking the pulse of the hunters. That pulse of the 54% - 47% will now got to the NRB. What the NRB does with it is anybodies guess. They can shelve it (based on the info from all the other polls) or they can support the idea. What does that mean? Nothing really, unless a legislator takes up the idea and writes a bill and then hearings are held and lobbyists engaged and Bowhunters mobilized. There are several ways such a 53%-47% result can go. In the future it may become law or it may not. It might not be so bad to have the age lowered as it would cover the aches and pains crowd putting the matter to bed. Now you know about the Conservation Congress. It does not write or pass laws. It's an advisory board to the NRB (who also cannot write or pass laws)

As far as the rest of your comments, (or those of other non-residents) I will say it again. They have not yet developed a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care about the opinions of non-residents who are angry and frustrated and pounding out outraged posts on an internet forum. :yell: :yell:


WI will do with it's laws what we will regardless of an internet poster named "Willie" and "Jim C" and all the time they spend making voluminous posts on archery talk. :violin: :violin:


It carries zero weight but is good for a chuckle from those actually at the capital protecting Bowhunting in WI. :chortle: :chortle:

We appreciate all the time you are putting into this but you need to know it's for naught. :doh: :doh:


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## willie

Just asking how the vote went and why you are totally disregaridng it NOW. Even spinning it to call it as a "split". No "split" about it. You lost.

You were all "let the people decide" until the vote came out against what you and your group wanted.

Mark my words there will come a day when that "split" will be cavernous and crossbows will come to Wisconsin for everyone.

I can see a lot of bowhunters falling on their broadheads as they just know the sky will fall in Wisconsin and the "archery season will be destroyed"....



.


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## Jim C

Hey Willie, how come these antis will never tell us how they are objectively harmed by allowing xbows into the season?


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## Rancid Crabtree

Willie
this rage is taking it's toll on you. I can read it in your posts. The anger and frustration in your posts seems odd. The people of WI have given their opinions on full intrusion. That may change someday in the future. The residents of WI have this covered. Your interest is touching but matters not.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Willie
> this rage is taking it's toll on you. I can read it in your posts. The anger and frustration in your posts seems odd. The people of WI have given their opinions on full intrusion. That may change someday in the future. The residents of WI have this covered. Your interest is touching but matters not.


LOL 

one day the question will be will xbow archers allow less accurate stuff to stay in the archery season


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## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Willie
> this rage is taking it's toll on you. I can read it in your posts. The anger and frustration in your posts seems odd. The people of WI have given their opinions on full intrusion. That may change someday in the future. The residents of WI have this covered. Your interest is touching but matters not.



LOL... NOTHING gets to me as I see the long haul. Time and solid pro-crossbow facts is on our side

I do find it amusing that your group got its panties in a wad and have to *pay* the lobbiest to keep those senior citizens out of the deer woods while toting crossbows. One of them old geezers might just get that deer that you are after.

I can hardly wait until the WI Conservation Congress ballot box stuffing (you all must have learned that from Obama/Acorn in Iowa) doesn't work any more and the full INCLUSION gets a majority. If the over 55 got you all this bad then, I see the price of the lobbiest go up and a lot of bowhunter hari-kari on full INCLUSION.

We are a patient lot...must be the bowhunter in us. :wink:


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## willie

willie said:


> RC,
> 
> Ya think just maybe the requirement of the over 65 age crossbowers to buy ARCHERY TAGS might have a little something to do with the increase in number of archery tags sold?


*Hmmmm.... no answer from RC..*


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## S.F. steve

rancid crabtree willie and jim c still at it i see. as i clutch my crystal balls i see the 3 of you in bow hunting in , uh it's getting fuzzy.... mmm in OHIO. rancid has his long bow, jim and willie have there xbows and they are hunting public land, all 3 dreaming of being"up to there nuts in deer guts" and not even a word about inclusion or intrusion being uttered. they might be hunting over bait in late jan or they might be hunting during the rut over tinks but by God they are hunting and they are having fun because they are hunting the most well managed deer herd in this country where crossbows have been legal since carter was in office. and they are getting along quite well, might even be throwing a few cocktails down the hatch in the evening and talking trash about the one that got away. one of them might have even have knocked down a "fat" doe and they got camp meat. willie's thinking to himself: the hell with wisconsin, they ain't got no deer and they got cwd to boot. i'm just gonna hunt at home and here in ohio. ohio's archery season is so long it's going to shorten up my time on archery talk.( i might add he is entertaining.) rancid is thinking: if these two had to hunt with a longbow they would have to buy venison, no wonder they love the xbows. jim, he's got a smile on his face because he shot the doe they are munching on. all 3 of them are thinking about the one that got away a big buck ohio that scores about 155. see i know that because it's in the back of my truck. i just happened to be hunting the same wildlife area. and we all had one hell of a good time because we were hunting in OHIO, the home of the most well managed deer herd in this country, where crossbows have been legal since carter was in office. just trying to lighten the mood fella's. i gotta go, the cavs are about to kick the s**t out of the celtics. take care


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## willie

*LOL...thanks for the laugh.*





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## awshucks

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Thanks Canada. :canada: Your concerns are noted. :usa:


Lol, comes from a guy that recently got the boot on a Canuck xbow site.ukey:

Understand same at CBN, wondered where you've been amusing yourself.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Amusing me is a good way to put it. I find great humor in these out of state comments. They count for squat. Thats the beauty of the chat rooms it's just pointless babble. You know what isn't pointless? The talk I had today while having lunch with a WI Senator who sits on the Senate committee on natural resourses. Those are the conversation that count. 10,000 chat room post pale in comparison. I suppose I could have asked him how much value he puts in the comments and opinions of residents of OH, PA, IN or any other state but I didn't want him to choke on his lunch when he started laughing.


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## Jim C

Lying is about all people like Rancid Crossbow hater has. Sadly, most politicians don't care enough to understand that there is no rational argument against crossbow inclusion. That Rancid is a member of PBS pretty well proves he supports lying. They are the clowns who claimed that xbows shoot twice as fast as compound bows and that beginners with crossbows can outshoot professional compound archers


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## Redclub

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Amusing me is a good way to put it. I find great humor in these out of state comments. They count for squat. Thats the beauty of the chat rooms it's just pointless babble. You know what isn't pointless? The talk I had today while having lunch with a WI Senator who sits on the Senate committee on natural resourses. Those are the conversation that count. 10,000 chat room post pale in comparison. I suppose I could have asked him how much value he puts in the comments and opinions of residents of OH, PA, IN or any other state but I didn't want him to choke on his lunch when he started laughing.



I wondered who paid for lunch surely not your politician and hopefully not the bowhunters of WI. Why do we need paid lobbiest? Instead of wasting money how about an ol timers,handicap class at the Necedah shoot (if its still there) Rancid you sure create a lot of hard feelings about looking down at us ol timers, 
Redclub from WI.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub you need to spend some time re-reading. I have posted on many occasions that I support the laws that allow the handicapped and elderly to use a crossbow. My 74 year old Father is one of them. There is no "looking down" on the seniors and elderly. The laws that allow them to partisipate are great laws.

As far as a lobbyist goes, that helps WBH to be better prepared to protect the archery deer season. There are all manner of threats to the WI bow season and having a man at the capital ensures things are well taken care of. Always watchful, always vigilant, never resting.


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## willie

Originally Posted by willie 

RC,

Ya think just maybe the requirement of the over 65 age crossbowers to buy ARCHERY TAGS might have a little something to do with the increase in number of archery tags sold?


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## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Redclub you need to spend some time re-reading. I have posted on many occasions that support the laws that allow the handicapped and elderly to use a crossbow. My 74 year old Father is one of them. There is no "looking down" on the seniors and elderly. The laws that allow them to partisipate are great laws.



Did not the WBH fight any inclusion on age? Only now are you saying "
it is a great law".


Why are you now paying a lobbiest MONEY to fight the 55 and over that passed the Conservation Congress.

Is that not a "great law"

What happened to your "Let the people decide"? Oh, that was before the vote...

Is that not a tad hypocritical?








.


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## INIDHA

Hey Willie;

Unlike you I don't live and die by my computer! I have a life besides the internet. Along with exposing you as representing the crossbow industry, I have a family,a full time job, working with IDNR on a new management policy AND turkey hunting.

I'll get around to you in my spare time!

By the way, you are the king of not giving answers, when cornered all you do is demand answers to your questions. Nice ploy but it does get old..........

Here is a question for you.............


If you aren't involved with the crossbow industry(for pay or in kind trades) then why does ANY state other than Indiana matter to you? Now remember you got upset that someone tried to recruit comments to Indiana's deer management plan AND on crossbows we get your non reasident buddies commenting EACH time.


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## INIDHA

1) You still haven't answered why it is necessary to "guage impact and interest" of crossbows when the IDNR has never asked for any license to "guage impact and interest" of ANY hunting tool. As you well know the IDNR OKed the use of Pistol Cartridge Rifles and did not ask for a PCR license to "guage impact and interest"

Why now with crossbows?

ANSWER - because the crossbow is neither archery or a firearm, and like it or not this is what the NRAC, NRC and IDNR has said. Now the reason WHY we currently use an archery license is because of the BACKROOM deal made between the IDNR and crossbow industry. It is important to note that the IDNR Director at the time was fired right after the deal!


2) Inidha stated about me - He is the public advocate for the crossbow industry. And Just like your hiding of involvement in the crossbow industry and commenting on crossbow in other states..

Please document anything about me and the crossbow industry. Please document any commenting, other than the websites “in other states.” 

ANSWER - Willie tell everyone about your latest "honor" from the crossbow industry........ What was it advocate of the year" Claerence "Woody" Williams. Do I need to post the release?


3) INidha.. said “When you look at who the crossbow atracts it is the gun hunter who does not want to practice with archery equipment or is atracted by the stock, scope and trigger of a crossbow.”

I asked - Show us any verifiable data from any state that the "crossbow hunter is predominately a gun hunter.

ANSWER - All we need to look at is your data on Georgia, it wasn't archers moving to crossbow, unless you can convince someone that archers went to crossbows and the gun hunter went to archery. AND NO! the crossbow isn't archery no matter how hard you try and sell it. Please don't trey to say that Geogia had a crossbow use made up of women kids and older adults, that's BS and you know it

Willie explain Arkansas and their crossbow season whart has it done there?

4)Inidha said that I wanted to “destroy all archery season”. I asked - Where have I ever said anything about "destroy(ing) all archery seasons? While you are at it please point to any state that has included crossbows in the archery seasons where there was any negative effect at all, much less "destroy all archery seasons."

Still waiting..

ANSWER -Georgia, Arkansas and OHIO, check out the decline in vertical bows, you know ARCHERY. Ohio would be a great sales person for crossbows, where is Horton TenPoint and others made Willie? ALSO, did not the manufacturers of crossbows make some SWEET deals for IDNR employess on purchases.......now be honest.


5)INidha..Your real angst is that to use the crossbow you had to get a disabled permit(which you need), you hate the moniker it carries.

Now Inidha can read my mind and tell what my feelings are on “disabled permits”? Please tell me how you think that you know this? 

Want my real feelings of “disabled permits”? They shouldn’t exist at all. EVERYONE should be able to use a crossbow in the archery season.

ANSWER -Crossbow is a HYBRED, neither gun nor bow..........it has its own license to go with the season


6)INidha.. "I am on record as supporting the 64 and over in early archery season, with the provision of an archery license."

I asked - When did you see the light on that one, Inidha? Up until the recent “deer meetings” he has been against crossbow for anyone except the physically challenged in any season. Even in I the present crossbow seasons.

The man genuinely hates crossbows.

ANSWER - I work on compromise, I see the use for the archer who no longer has the strength to hold what he considers a hunting weight bow. The crossbow keeps him in the field until he can grab his firearm(sound familiar?). What was your excuse...........yea, you didn't consider Indiana's minimum of 35 pounds enough. Just for your information, my son's first shot first clean kill was 37 pounds......... dead as your fancy $2000.00(retail value) crossbow.


7) I asked - So, are you telling me that IF Georgia had not added 20,000 crossbowers the archery numbers (that include crossbowers)would NOT have declined? 

Please answer how adding people caused a drop in numbers.. this should be good.

ANSWER - Crossbow use caused archery hunters to leave the woods, it's a fact no one in the crossbow industry wants to admit. 


There you are. The questions that have been asked an dodged.

I would like to add one more.

8) You said once that a hunter on your ground uses a crossbow. Does his hunting negatively effect your hunting? Would his hunting with a crossbow negatively effect your hunting IF he was not physically challenged and that was legal?

If he didn't have to hunt with a crossbow he wouldn't, he has said it many times. "IF" and you want to paint that "IF " picture, he was not disabled(he never was "physically challenged") he would not use(by rule ) a crossbow on my property in early archery season.

Willie would have people believe he and others are the answer to hunter recruitment. In the past two years Indiana is ONE of two states that increased hunter participation........we did it without the crossbow.


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## Rancid Crabtree

INIDHA, you have more patience for these guys than I have. I can only hope a busy body from another state would show up in WI pushing crossbows right about now. The timing is perfect to kill this right now. I don't mind willy or woody or even buzz lightyear asking me questions. Since he is a non-issue he can ask all he wants. I am spending my time talking to state policy makers and he is nipping at my heels.

Dance puppet, dance. LOL:teeth:


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> INIDHA, you have more patience for these guys than I have. I can only hope a busy body from another state would show up in WI pushing crossbows right about now. The timing is perfect to kill this right now. I don't mind willy or woody or even buzz lightyear asking me questions. Since he is a non-issue he can ask all he wants. I am spending my time talking to state policy makers and he is nipping at my heels.
> 
> Dance puppet, dance. LOL:teeth:


One day people like you are going to be hoping xbow archers don't treat you the way you treated them. its only a matter of time


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## awshucks

> Willie explain Arkansas and their crossbow season whart has it done there?


Whart has it done there? Please tell, and in which of the 30 yrs they've been legal archery equipment?


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## awshucks

INIDHA said:


> Hey Willie;
> 
> Unlike you I don't live and die by my computer! I have a life besides the internet. *Along with exposing you as representing the crossbow industry,* I have a family,a full time job, working with IDNR on a new management policy AND turkey hunting.
> 
> I'll get around to you in my spare time!
> 
> By the way, you are the king of not giving answers, when cornered all you do is demand answers to your questions. Nice ploy but it does get old..........
> 
> Here is a question for you.............
> 
> 
> *If you aren't involved with the crossbow industry(for pay or in kind trades) *then why does ANY state other than Indiana matter to you? Now remember you got upset that someone tried to recruit comments to Indiana's deer management plan AND on crossbows we get your non reasident buddies commenting EACH time.





> Please document anything about me and the crossbow industry. Please document any commenting, other than the websites “in other states.”
> 
> ANSWER - Willie tell everyone about your latest "honor" from the crossbow industry........ What was it advocate of the year" Clarence "Woody" Williams. Do I need to post the release?



It wasn't the 'crossbow industry', it was the ACF. Since you appear confused, allow me to assist you.

ACF LION HEART AWARD:
THE ACF LION HEART AWARD
Starting with the Summer 2007 issue, the American Crossbow Federation instituted a new award to be presented on a quarterly basis to an *outstanding supporter of the grassroots crossbow movement.* The ACF Lion Heart Award is presented to a deserving individual that has gone the extra mile in helping to promote and preserve the crossbow hunting opportunity during the course of his or her daily life.
Any ACF Member who is a current, paid member or a paid Life Member may 
present the name of a prospective candidate to the ACF Main Desk. The criterion is simple. Each candidate should be nominated because of the effort that he or she is putting forth to expand the crossbow hunting opportunity. We are not looking for the professional writers, TV personalities *or other industry figures, we are looking for the grassroots crossbow advocate. * You folks know who they are when you see them.

Now, about xbows in Ar?


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## willie

1) You still haven't answered why it is necessary to "guage impact and interest" of crossbows when the IDNR has never asked for any license to "guage impact and interest" of ANY hunting tool. As you well know the IDNR OKed the use of Pistol Cartridge Rifles and did not ask for a PCR license to "guage impact and interest"

Why now with crossbows?

ANSWER - because the crossbow is neither archery or a firearm, and like it or not this is what the NRAC, NRC and IDNR has said. Now the reason WHY we currently use an archery license is because of the BACKROOM deal made between the IDNR and crossbow industry. It is important to note that the IDNR Director at the time was fired right after the deal!

*Ah, but you are wrong. Most of the major ARCHERY organizations recognize crossbows as ARCHERY. Jim C can fill you in as he knows ARCHERY. Only groups like yours and the IBA who’s hatred for crossbows blinds then to what crossbows really are. Unfortunately the above mentioned decision makers have been hornswaggled by you and your group. They will see some day that what they were told by you all was not true. The house of cards will fall then.*


2) Inidha stated about me - He is the public advocate for the crossbow industry. And Just like your hiding of involvement in the crossbow industry and commenting on crossbow in other states..

Please document anything about me and the crossbow industry. Please document any commenting, other than the websites “in other states.” 

ANSWER - Willie tell everyone about your latest "honor" from the crossbow industry........ What was it advocate of the year" Clarence "Woody" Williams. Do I need to post the release?

*Please do.. I think awshucks covered it pretty well though. Lets see what did I receive out of this unsolicited award? A certificate, one years membership and 4 magazines. Wow! What a pay off.* 


3) INidha.. said “When you look at who the crossbow atracts it is the gun hunter who does not want to practice with archery equipment or is atracted by the stock, scope and trigger of a crossbow.”

I asked - Show us any verifiable data from any state that the "crossbow hunter is predominately a gun hunter.

ANSWER - All we need to look at is your data on Georgia, it wasn't archers moving to crossbow, unless you can convince someone that archers went to crossbows and the gun hunter went to archery. AND NO! the crossbow isn't archery no matter how hard you try and sell it. Please don't trey to say that Geogia had a crossbow use made up of women kids and older adults, that's BS and you know it

*Again from the GDNR –“ We do not have the data necessary to determine exactly how many of these individuals were new to archery hunting versus how many were previously hunting with archery equipment and simply added crossbows to their archery equipment. However, looking at general estimates of archery hunter numbers prior to the statutory change versus after the change, we only saw a minuscule increase in the number of archery hunters. Thus, it seems logical to conclude that most hunters using crossbows were probably existing archery hunters who opted to add the crossbow to their archery repertoire and experience this new opportunity.

From anecdotal evidence of talking with retailers it appears that a large number of hunters buying crossbows were older and it is assumed that these were older bowhunters getting back into bowhunting. The second greatest amount of crossbow purchases was by the young and women.

In our experience, we have experienced no deleterious sociological or biological affects from this statutory change that legalized the use of crossbows. From a statutory and regulatory viewpoint, we consider the crossbow a legal weapon for hunting any game species and classify it as archery equipment. “*

Willie explain Arkansas and their crossbow season whart has it done there?

*You tell me? LOL…Awshucks (who lives in the mountains of Arkansas) knows what the situation is in Arkansas. Duel it out.. I’ll watch.*

4)Inidha said that I wanted to “destroy all archery season”. I asked - Where have I ever said anything about "destroy(ing) all archery seasons? While you are at it please point to any state that has included crossbows in the archery seasons where there was any negative effect at all, much less "destroy all archery seasons."

Still waiting..

ANSWER -Georgia, Arkansas and OHIO, check out the decline in vertical bows, you know ARCHERY. Ohio would be a great sales person for crossbows, where is Horton TenPoint and others made Willie? ALSO, did not the manufacturers of crossbows make some SWEET deals for IDNR employess on purchases.......now be honest.

*Georgia - We’ve discussed Georgia and the numbers changed due to the way that they sold licenses and a general decrease in the number of ALL hunting groups. That has stabilized now.

Arkansas – We are waiting on you to tell us what is wrong with Arkansas. Awshucks will set you straight on that one.

Ohio – has 350,000 bowhunters. 200, 000 that use a crossbow and 150,000 that use a vertical bow. Some of those bow hunters switch back and forth as conditions warrant. Nice to have a choice.. BTW - The vertical bowhunters have set record harvests for the last NINE years.

How many years of records has the Indiana bowhunters set? Oh, that’s right they are just catching up on percent of harvest (not there yet)from the BIG downturn in numbers form 2002. What happened in 2002? It took a bonus permit usage in the early archery season to even do that. Bow season in Indiana has become doe season.

Need I post the numbers again from Ohio how the crossbow recruits the young into VERTICAL archery hunting?* 


5)INidha..Your real angst is that to use the crossbow you had to get a disabled permit(which you need), you hate the moniker it carries.

Now Inidha can read my mind and tell what my feelings are on “disabled permits”? Please tell me how you think that you know this? 

Want my real feelings of “disabled permits”? They shouldn’t exist at all. EVERYONE should be able to use a crossbow in the archery season.

ANSWER -Crossbow is a HYBRED, neither gun nor bow..........it has its own license to go with the season.

*Not to nit pick, but I think you mean HYBRID and not HYBRED. Either way it is not a hybrid. 

Main Entry: hy·brid 
Pronunciation: \ˈhī-brəd\
Function: noun 
Etymology: Latin hybrida
Date: 1601
1 : an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera
2 : a person whose background is a blend of two diverse cultures or traditions 
3 a : something heterogeneous in origin or composition : composite <hybrids of complementary DNA and RNA strands> <a hybrid of medieval and Renaissance styles> b : something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has two different types of components performing essentially the same function.


Crossbows were first used in the 4th century BC. Firearms were first used in the 12th century AD. How can a crossbow be a hybrid of something that was not even invented yet?

We’ve heard you crossbow haters say that “crossbows have gun stocks”. In reality guns have crossbow stock since crossbows preceded guns by 1,600 years.

When was the bow invented that 95% of the Indiana bowhunters use? Hmm?

You still did not answer the question on how you think you know my feelings on “handicapped permits”*



6)INidha.. "I am on record as supporting the 64 and over in early archery season, with the provision of an archery license."

I asked - When did you see the light on that one, Inidha? Up until the recent “deer meetings” he has been against crossbow for anyone except the physically challenged in any season. Even in I the present crossbow seasons.

The man genuinely hates crossbows.

ANSWER - I work on compromise, I see the use for the archer who no longer has the strength to hold what he considers a hunting weight bow. The crossbow keeps him in the field until he can grab his firearm(sound familiar?). What was your excuse...........yea, you didn't consider Indiana's minimum of 35 pounds enough. Just for your information, my son's first shot first clean kill was 37 pounds......... dead as your fancy $2000.00(retail value) crossbow.

*Compromise? Don’t make me laugh. You and the IBA saw the hand-writing on the wall on the coming of crossbows in Indiana and threw out a bone. The recommendations put forth by the NRCAC (and adopted by you as a “compromise) will do nothing to recruit new hunters, retain older hunters, kill more deer and raise any more revenues for the IDNR. 

“Compromise”? I don’t think so..*


7) I asked - So, are you telling me that IF Georgia had not added 20,000 crossbowers the archery numbers (that include crossbowers)would NOT have declined? 

Please answer how adding people caused a drop in numbers.. this should be good.

ANSWER - Crossbow use caused archery hunters to leave the woods, it's a fact no one in the crossbow industry wants to admit. 

*Read once again what John Bowers of the GADNR said.. I’m on GON a LOT and have yet to see any hunting archer says that he “left the woods” because of crossbows.*


There you are. The questions that have been asked and dodged.

I would like to add one more.

8) You said once that a hunter on your ground uses a crossbow. Does his hunting negatively effect your hunting? Would his hunting with a crossbow negatively effect your hunting IF he was not physically challenged and that was legal?

ANSWER - If he didn't have to hunt with a crossbow he wouldn't, he has said it many times. "IF" and you want to paint that "IF " picture, he was not disabled(he never was "physically challenged") he would not use(by rule ) a crossbow on my property in early archery season.

*Again, you did not answer the question – It was not what your rules are on your property. Does he NOW negatively effect your hunt by using a crossbow? If he was not physically challenged and still used a crossbow would it negatively effect your hunt IF you allowed it as you presently do allow him?

You do bring up a good point, one that I have gave to the IDNR and NRC, that since 93% of the deer hunting property in Indiana is privately owned no one will that doesn’t not want crossbows on their property don’t have to have crossbows on their property. It is just another choice in archery hunting gear that hunters can choose or decline.*

Willie would have people believe he and others are the answer to hunter recruitment. In the past two years Indiana is ONE of two states that increased hunter participation........we did it without the crossbow. 

*Yes, the apprentice license and maybe the PCRs did help acquire a blip in hunter recruitment. When that blip goes away what then? *


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> INIDHA, you have more patience for these guys than I have. I can only hope a busy body from another state would show up in WI pushing crossbows right about now. The timing is perfect to kill this right now. *I don't mind willy or woody or even buzz lightyear asking me questions.* Since he is a non-issue he can ask all he wants. I am spending my time talking to state policy makers and he is nipping at my heels.
> 
> Dance puppet, dance. LOL:teeth:



Then why do you not answer the questions?


Did not the WBH fight any inclusion on age? Only now are you saying "
it is a great law".

Why are you now paying a lobbiest MONEY to fight the 55 and over that passed the Conservation Congress.

Is that not a "great law" too?

What happened to your "Let the people decide"? Oh, that was before the vote...

Is that not a tad hypocritical?

*AND..*

Do you think just maybe the requirement of the over 65 age crossbowers to buy *ARCHERY TAGS* might have a little something to do with the increase in number of archery tags sold?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Thanks for your concern Indiana. We will take it from here. Thats how we roll up in here. Remember, they have not yet invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care what your opinion is in regards to WI laws. When we want input from you, we will be in touch. Nothing personal.

You will think I am avoiding the questions but actually, I am discussing the matter with state policy makers since they are the ones who matter. 


do more of this :icon_study: and you will find yourself doing less of this. :BangHead: and less of this. :set1_violent002:

Relax a bit and try a little of this. :archer: and perhaps you will understand. because right now, all I'm getting from you is :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:


----------



## awshucks

Well, somebody is certainly avoiding questions, in checking my facts, I see why, lol. IIRC, xbows legal full inc 30+ yrs in Ar.

We just had our second highest deer harvest season on record, according to ADFG. Up 9% from year before, which was up 2.5% from the.........yada yada.

Verts: 13,175
Xbow: 5,203 [yikes <3% total?]
Guns: 166,613
Totals: 184,530


----------



## willie

So your ....



> I don't mind willy or woody or even buzz lightyear asking me questions.


.....was just more of your typical BS, right?

We can ask but as always you wont answer. Cute, real cute...

Not a very honest debater are you?


Not to worry.....your house of cards will a fall too..the sooner the better


----------



## Jim C

willie said:


> So your ....
> 
> 
> 
> .....was just more of your typical BS, right?
> 
> We can ask but as always you wont answer. Cute, real cute...
> 
> Not a very honest debater are you?
> 
> 
> Not to worry.....your house of cards will a fall too..the sooner the better


I think we found out the problem willie


----------



## willie

> inIDHA posted - ”…the crossbow is neither archery or a firearm, and like it or not this is what the NRAC, NRC and IDNR has said.”
> 
> And
> 
> “Crossbow is a HYBRID, neither gun nor bow..........it has its own license to go with the season.”


Well, are crossbows archery?

In the majority of the world the answer would be yes, they are archery equipment. 

Only in the United States do you get some bowhunters and bowhunting organizations that don't think that crossbows are archery equipment. Of course they are "protecting their own". They do not want crossbows in “their deer woods” during “their season” killing “their deer”.

The National Archery Association - the oldest archery organization on record have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. 

The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for about 7 years and it is growing every year.

The National Field Archery Association now recognizes crossbows at its Las Vegas championships. 

Atlantic City Archery Tournament has had a crossbow divisions for years. That shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old. 

The Archery Shooters Association Federation recognizes crossbows as archery equipment.

These are REAL archery organizations. They do not allow anything but archery to compete in their tournaments.

The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment. 

So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s or Dicks or Gander Mountain and see where the crossbows are kept. 

Every archery catalog I receive from the retailers has crossbows in it. 
Bow and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising. 

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and all state wildlife agencies, crossbows are archery equipment:

> Crossbows and accessories that attach to crossbows as well as crossbow arrows are defined in the Internal Revenue Code that pertains to the archery excise tax.

> The US Fish & Wildlife Service receives the archery excise tax funds - of which about 10% are from crossbows - from the IRS and allocates those dollars to the state wildlife agencies through the Pittman Robertson program.

> State wildlife agencies receive archery excise tax dollars in amounts determined by a formula that includes the number of licensed hunters (including all those who hunt with crossbows) and the area of the state.

Regardless of what the anti-crossbow people say, the government treats crossbows like archery equipment.

As far as a crossbow being a “hybrid”. Crossbows date back to the 4th century BC. Firearms did not come on the scene until the 12th century AD. It is a physical impossibility for a crossbow to be a “hybrid” of something that would not be invented for another 1,600 years. Anti-crossbowers like to say that the crossbow has a “rifle stock”, when in all reality a rifle has a “crossbow stock.

Just like a modern compound bow, a crossbow propels an arrow from the fastly forward moving string powered by a set of bent limbs. The trajectory of the arrow is very similar to that of an arrow launched by a compound bow. On the end of that arrow is the same broadhead that is used by any other hunting archer. That arrow kills that deer from lung collapse and blood loss. 

Sure sounds like archery to me.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

willie said:


> So your ....
> 
> 
> 
> .....was just more of your typical BS, right?
> 
> We can ask but as always you wont answer. Cute, real cute...
> 
> Not a very honest debater are you?
> 
> 
> Not to worry.....your house of cards will a fall too..the sooner the better


hey,thats great. Glad to hear it. It's always great to hear from you. Stop by and visit again sometime. I'd love to chat but I have people in WI that set policy that I need to be talking to.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> hey,thats great. Glad to hear it. It's always great to hear from you. Stop by and visit again sometime. I'd love to chat but I have people in WI that set policy that I need to be talking to.


I am curious when I see posts like this......

If you do not want to admit that your reasoning for blocking crossbow inclusion is purely selfish, why bother to respond with the standard talking points and/or witty comments?:noidea:

If you had the time away from the WI movers and shakers to post a line or two of sarcasm, why not devout those lines to addressing your reason for keeping crossbows out of archery season?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Mostly because that info is best shared with state legislators. I will tell the OH, PA, IN,etc folks here what I want them to know, when I want then to know it since their input and opinion counts for squat.


----------



## awshucks

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Mostly because that info is best shared with state legislators. I will tell the OH, PA, IN,etc folks here what I want them to know, when I want then to know it since their input and opinion counts for squat.


Do y'all play dominos in Wi? Are you familiar w/ the term 'last domino'? Hint: Think Tx, Pa, Mi, Nj.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

No. We are busy shooting our bows and the elderly and handicapped like Willie are sighting in their crossbow once for the year.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> *Mostly because that info is best shared with state legislators.* I will tell the OH, PA, IN,etc folks here what I want them to know, when I want then to know it since their input and opinion counts for squat.


The sentence highlighted only serves to add to my confusion.

If you have legitimate data that points out any negative impact crossbow inclusion brings to the table, keeping that information a secret makes no sense.

BTW, what are you going to do when crossbows have full inclusion in your state?

Crossbows now have full inclusion in my home state of PA, and contrary to the unfounded fears of the masses here, the sky did not fall.

Being a vertical bow only kinda guy myself, I still cannot wrap my brain around the lengths that some of my fellow hunters will go to try and block other fellow hunters for nothing more than selfish reasons.ukey:


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Mostly because that info is best shared with state legislators. I will tell the OH, PA, IN,etc folks here what I want them to know, when I want then to know it since their input and opinion counts for squat.


*Formal request* - Don't send me any more PMs. If you cant discuss anything with me in an open forum do not even attempt to send anything else to me via PM or email.

Clear?


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Big Country said:


> I still cannot wrap my brain around the lengths that some of my fellow hunters will go to try and block other fellow hunters for nothing more than selfish reasons.ukey:



Great question. See here in WI, nobody is excluded from the archery deer season. Everybody that wishes to partisipate can do just that. No archers are excluded. Elderly folks like Awshucks and the handicapped like Willie can even enjoy their time because WI allows crossbow shooters to partisipate in the archery deer season. It's a perfect system and everybody is happy. The able bodied archers have 3 choices of bows and the elderly and handicapped can shoot the xgun.


----------



## Jim C

Big Country said:


> The sentence highlighted only serves to add to my confusion.
> 
> If you have legitimate data that points out any negative impact crossbow inclusion brings to the table, keeping that information a secret makes no sense.
> 
> BTW, what are you going to do when crossbows have full inclusion in your state?
> 
> Crossbows now have full inclusion in my home state of PA, and contrary to the unfounded fears of the masses here, the sky did not fall.
> 
> Being a vertical bow only kinda guy myself, I still cannot wrap my brain around the lengths that some of my fellow hunters will go to try and block other fellow hunters for nothing more than selfish reasons.ukey:


Back when one of my neighboring state's was debating xbows I copied the posts of anti xbow clowns and sent them along with responses of people such as "willie" to a few legislators and others who had input on the matter. 

The term "xgun" pretty well branded the anti crossbow types as just ignorant yahoos who were willing to lie in order to push their propaganda.

They all noted that it appeared that the only argument the rancid types had was pure selfishness and since those people never had any rational rebutal to the well reasoned points (and the experience here in Ohio) of the pro inclusion forces they were going to support the position that all bowhunters should be treated equally.


----------



## Raymond 1

More BS from Raunchy Crab? I think he knows he is losing the battle and is reaching for excuses. CROSSBOWS are archery bows. Here they come Wisconsin, Raunchy and his co-conspirator thugs has been getting away with their BS long enough, now they are beginning to speak against Raunchy and his thugs. Raunchy is losing the fight. It is slipping through those grubby, cheating, lying hands of that soon to be CROSSBOW ARCHERY hunter.
Raymond


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Thanks Canada. :canada:

If your able, try a bow for your hunting. I think you will find the challenge and reward very satisfying. Harvesting game with a bow is pretty tough so I think you would enjoy it.

For a real challenge and an honest to goodness archery hunting experience, try a traditional bow. Mind you that you will have to bring something of yourself in order to hunt with a bow. There will be none of the shoulder fired, stocked, safety, scoped, trigger guard and stored energy to take the effort out of it for you. This way, you actually have to do it yourself with actual effort, human power and a boat load of practice. Very rewarding indeed. If at some point you tire of the point and squeeze, give it a try. If your elderly or handicapped, no worries, you can use the xgun to shoot game here during the archery season.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Just an FYI, The fine folks that are asking the crossbow poll question have informed me that the IP address is linked to each vote and after the poll closes, they plan to scrub the results leaving only WI votes. Those folks from Oh Canada and PA and OH and the dishonest cheaters from other states will have wasted their time. For those that don't know about the WI Conservation Congress, Only residents can voice an opinion the night of the hearings. Before each person gets a ballot they must show WI residency and proof of the county they live in. Because of this, the online poll will also only include WI opinions.


Curses........... Foiled again. :lol3:


To the dishonest, corrupt, deceitful and fraudulent wankers that thought they were being clever in spamming the poll. Better luck next time. My guess is that the final results will show 65% opposed and 35% in favor. And remember, this is only about lowering the age from 65 to 55. If the majority are not in favor of that, it's understandable that they are opposed to full intrusion for the 20, 30, 40 and 50 year olds.


----------



## awshucks

> Elderly folks like Awshucks


Not elderly enough w/ 65 limit. You're just a fountain of bad info? How about those Ar stats I posted? I sent them to your F&G dept.


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> 1) ........ *ALSO, did not the manufacturers of crossbows make some SWEET deals for IDNR employess on purchases.......now be honest*.
> 
> 
> .............


* WHOA!! 

I missed this.

What the hay are you talking about? Do you have proof that "manufacturers of crossbows" approached our Indiana DNR with "sweet deals on purchases"?

Proof please..

*


----------



## INIDHA

My error ............ 

Willie, tel lfolks how Ohio IDNR employees got sweet deals on crossbows from Horton and others. It is on record that crossbows were offered at actual costs to ANY DNR employee or hunter education instructor.

How's that for buying your way in to favorable comments.....

I was also told by IDNR, let me make it clear Indiana Department of Natural Resources.......... the same deal was offered to them! AFTER, AFTER the Director was fired( who made the original crossbow season deal)...........IDNR declined.

Now you can spin your crossbow crap any way you like, but the industry is the moving force not hunters.....


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Thanks Canada. :canada:
> 
> If your able, try a bow for your hunting. I think you will find the challenge and reward very satisfying. Harvesting game with a bow is pretty tough so I think you would enjoy it.
> 
> For a real challenge and an honest to goodness archery hunting experience, try a traditional bow. Mind you that you will have to bring something of yourself in order to hunt with a bow. There will be none of the shoulder fired, stocked, safety, scoped, trigger guard and stored energy to take the effort out of it for you. This way, you actually have to do it yourself with actual effort, human power and a boat load of practice. Very rewarding indeed. If at some point you tire of the point and squeeze, give it a try. If your elderly or handicapped, no worries, you can use the xgun to shoot game here during the archery season.


Nice deer, and nice bow.

For starters, hunters do not harvest animals........we kill them. Harvesting is for farmers.

Secondly, I think you are giving successful bow hunts a little too much credit as a monumental feat. With a little bit of experience, it is just not that tough to fill a tag.

Now, crossbows enjoy roughly the same energy levels and effective ranges as the modern compound bow.

Crossbows enjoy some advantages, while they bring some disadvantages to the table as well.

The ONLY advantage a crossbow has over a compound bow that is worth discussing is the fact that you do NOT have to draw it in the presence of game. That can be an advantage for sure in some cases. That said, it simply is not that big of a deal to draw on an animal with a vertical bow with just a little bit of learned knowledge.

I have successfully done it myself over 200 times on big game animals between a compound and a recurve.

I have yet to be successful with a crossbow, and as long as I remain healthy enough to shoot a compound, I will not attempt to hunt with a crossbow........but I surely do not care if my fellow bowhunter does.

Just for giggles, why not pretend for a moment that the WI DNR czar is on here, and explain your reasons for not wanting crossbows included in archery season for ANYBODY who wants to use them?

With the clear animosity you harbor towards the crossbow, I am positive that you have some awesome statistical data from states that have included the crossbow to show how bad it will be for Wisconsins deer herd, as well as bow hunter satisfaction.:darkbeer:

I eagerly await your well informed reply.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Low brow, unethical actions from the string rifle community? Who would have thunk it? Joe thanks for the call and the info yesterday. I also touched bases with the head of 5 other bowhunting orgs in other states. All confirmed. They also spent some time trying to cheat a WI crossbow poll whith their dishonesty. But thanks to a doddering old fool on the Canadian xgun forum spilling the beans, the pollster is scrubbing out the alien IP addresses. Gotta love it when the other side steps on their own schwanz. Myself and others have been monitoring the boltgun sites for year and they are very generous with their game plans.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Low brow, unethical actions from the string rifle community? Who would have thunk it? Joe thanks for the call and the info yesterday. I also touched bases with the head of 5 other bowhunting orgs in other states. All confirmed. They also spent some time trying to cheat a WI crossbow poll whith their dishonesty. But thanks to a doddering old fool on the Canadian xgun forum spilling the beans, the pollster is scrubbing out the alien IP addresses. Gotta love it when the other side steps on their own schwanz. Myself and others have been monitoring the boltgun sites for year and they are very generous with their game plans.


Does it make you feel taller when you use unflattering terms and attempt to kick your fellow sportsmen?

There is no reason for you to answer any of my questions now. It is a FACT that you can not produce any data showing a single reason to preclude the crossbows inclusion, and your most recent post clearly indicates the stance of an elitist that feels a certain superiority over his peers........in a non-contest sport.

What a sad, sad way to go through life.

I hope it does not hurt too bad when Wisconsin see`s the light just like all other states will in the not so distant future.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Big country, why pretend I am talking to him. I just drive over and talk to him face to face or call him or send him an email. The same with the legislature. As legislative liaison, that's my job. We also have a lobbyist to visit the offices of the legislators to provide the data. Dispensing it here to folks who don't mean Jack seems like a wasted effort. Attached is the report from our CWD committee back in 2007. Read page 33 I personally delivered that to the office of the Sec. Of the DNR. Put the effort where it does the most good. Always watchful, always vigilant, never resting. 

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/whealth/issues/cwd/doc/SAGreport.pdf


----------



## Redclub

So Rancid,now us ol guys take our X-Guns and only shoot once a year,
Isn't 32 deer enough for you and to keep posting that average buck is a pity those 32 others must really be tiny
Redclub from Wi.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Big country, why pretend I am talking to him. I just drive over and talk to him face to face or call him or send him an email. The same with the legislature. As legislative liaison, that's my job. We also have a lobbyist to visit the offices of the legislators to provide the data. Dispensing it here to folks who don't mean Jack seems like a wasted effort. Attached is the report from our CWD committee back in 2007. Read page 33 I personally delivered that to the office of the Sec. Of the DNR. Put the effort where it does the most good. Always watchful, always vigilant, never resting.
> 
> http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/whealth/issues/cwd/doc/SAGreport.pdf


And that report means exactly what in regards to crossbows?

You actually get to speak in person with the head of the DNR?

I am feeling a little weak knee`d after reading that! I can only hope to have those kind of connections some day!!!!!!

As usual, still no admitting the elitism.......

Why keep up the charade? just say that you do not want to share the deer woods with any more people?


----------



## Jim C

Big Country said:


> Does it make you feel taller when you use unflattering terms and attempt to kick your fellow sportsmen?
> 
> There is no reason for you to answer any of my questions now. It is a FACT that you can not produce any data showing a single reason to preclude the crossbows inclusion, and your most recent post clearly indicates the stance of an elitist that feels a certain superiority over his peers........in a non-contest sport.
> 
> What a sad, sad way to go through life.
> 
> I hope it does not hurt too bad when Wisconsin see`s the light just like all other states will in the not so distant future.


Like that idiot the SOURCE of a few years ago Rancid apparently has serious self esteem issues and an ego problem He seems to think that if someone else kills a deer with a crossbow that is "TOO EASY" and it will taint Rancid's trophies. I have studied the mental issues surrounding the anti crossbow crowd for years and ego and greed are the only two motivations.

all the other stuff is just a facade for those two motivations


----------



## Redclub

Redclub said:


> So Rancid,now us ol guys take our X-Guns and only shoot once a year,
> Isn't 32 deer enough for you and to keep posting that average buck is a pity those 32 others must really be tiny
> Redclub from Wi.


Sorry I posted that I am not that way
Redclub


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Big Country said:


> And that report means exactly what in regards to crossbows?


it means no crossbows except for the elderly and handicapped. Just like the end results of all the other committees. The most recent was the eab alternative committee where the group rejected the idea of crossbows except for the elderly and infirmed. Hunters don't want them in WI. Each time they are asked about full intrusion, the majority say NO!


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Is it just me or have others noticed that the only folks wetting themselves over WI boltgun laws are folks from other states? We appreciate your concerns fellas but all is well here in God's country. Nobody is excluded from the archery deer season here. Anybody that wants to bowhunt can do just that. Just because you were inflicted with the string rifles in your state does not mean misery loves company.:smile: 

Now I have To go shoot my bow before it gets dark. Here we archers have to practice with our bows to stay in form and keep the muscles in 
shape during thr draw and hold. We don't sight the scope in annually to make sure it's still shooting accurately from the initial sight in.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> it means no crossbows except for the elderly and handicapped. Just like the end results of all the other committees. The most recent was the eab alternative committee where the group rejected the idea of crossbows except for the elderly and infirmed. Hunters don't want them in WI. Each time they are asked about full intrusion, the majority say NO!


Where are those statistics defending your stance regarding crossbows?

Surely you have reasons for attacking fellow hunters?


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> My error ............
> 
> Willie, tel lfolks how Ohio IDNR employees got sweet deals on crossbows from Horton and others. It is on record that crossbows were offered at actual costs to ANY DNR employee or hunter education instructor.
> 
> How's that for buying your way in to favorable comments.....
> 
> I was also told by IDNR, let me make it clear Indiana Department of Natural Resources.......... the same deal was offered to them! AFTER, AFTER the Director was fired( who made the original crossbow season deal)...........IDNR declined.
> 
> Now you can spin your crossbow crap any way you like, but the industry is the moving force not hunters.....



You mean like this?

Are all these companies "buying their way in" too?

http://www.ihea.com/instructors/special-offers-for-instructors.php

http://vahea.org/page9.html

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement/docs/2009_Instructor_Discount.pdf

Since a lot of the Indiana HE instructors *ARE* IDNR employees are these offers not good for them too? Why even you can get in on that too.

But a serious question - what good does it do for Horton to give a 40% discount (dealers price) to the ODNR when crossbows have been legal for over 30 years ? ? ? ? 

Try again...


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Is it just me or have others noticed that the only folks wetting themselves over WI boltgun laws are folks from other states? We appreciate your concerns fellas but all is well here in God's country. Nobody is excluded from the archery deer season here. Anybody that wants to bowhunt can do just that. Just because you were inflicted with the string rifles in your state does not mean misery loves company.:smile:
> 
> Now I have To go shoot my bow before it gets dark. Here we archers have to practice with our bows to stay in form and keep the muscles in
> shape during thr draw and hold. We don't sight the scope in annually to make sure it's still shooting accurately from the initial sight in.


I am much more interested in YOUR line of thinking than I am of WI archery regs.

I am curious to know why you would take the position you have on this issue?

You have no objective reason to feel this way, and your terminology when discussing crossbows, and crossbow users is so juvenile that I am honestly surprised that the DNR in your state would work with you at all.

If you stepped away from your state bowhunter org.(figuratively speaking) and think about this issue with an open mind, you would see that your fears, and that is what it is, are completely unfounded.

The same stance was taken by a large percentage of bow hunters when bows started coming out with wheels on them, and we see just how bad they were for our sport.

It is a monumental leap in performance and effective range from a trad bow to a compound, yet the difference between a compound and a crossbow is negligible.

BTW, my home states bowhunting org. was vehemently opposed to crossbow inclusion too. They were wrong, as is yours, but I still remained a member and a donor because their error on one issue does not erase all the good they have done for bow hunting in my state.

Standing on the outside looking in to Wisconsins bowhunting issues, it does seem like there is room for improvement, but crossbow inclusion certainly would not add to any problems your state may have.


----------



## willie

BTW - Joe... you are still dodging the questions as is your bud...


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Funnny thing is the questions asked by Wisconsin policy makers are the only ones that matter. Ask away..... Don't expect answers though, we save that for folks here in WI who have a stake in the issue. The majority is opposed to them. That's all you really need to know. That and nobody in WI is excluded from bowhunting our state. Any resident that so desires can bowhunt to their hearts content. There is no need to change. Our bowhunter numbers are near record for the numbers of bowhunters. The Full details and stats and particulars And reasons are shared with state policy makers who matter. The OH, PA, etc folks here pounding out angry posts on the Internet don't factor in to this.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Funnny thing is the questions asked by Wisconsin policy makers are the only ones that matter. Ask away..... Don't expect answers though, we save that for folks here in WI who have a stake in the issue. The majority is opposed to them. That's all you really need to know. That and nobody in WI is excluded from bowhunting our state. Any resident that so desires can bowhunt to their hearts content. There is no need to change. Our bowhunter numbers are near record for the numbers of bowhunters. The Full details and stats and particulars And reasons are shared with state policy makers who matter. *The OH, PA, etc folks here pounding out angry posts on the Internet don't factor in to this*.


Are you always this evasive?

I am not angry at all. I am a little bit disappointed that you will not state your reason for being divisive and exclusionary........but not angry.

There is only one person here that is using derogatory terminology for an inanimate object, and doing so without any reason other than displaying anger.

I will take your string of posts to mean that you are unwilling to share your reason for campaigning against crossbows..........


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

More than willing. I just share answers with the those that matter in the grand scheme. This is just practice in a pretend world.


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> More than willing. I just share answers with the those that matter in the grand scheme. This is just practice in a pretend world.


I am glad that you can determine exactly who matters in this world, and who is irrelevant.

I am seeing a trend here in your posting, and it is pointing towards an elitist with an inflated opinion of themselves.

While you are saving the state of WI from those contraptions from the devil himself, i will be hunting Canadian black bear with my recurve bow. One hunting friend will also be using his recurve, several friends will be using compounds, and one friend will be using a crossbow.

We might even let that last friend sleep in the camp with us "real" hunters.


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## Jim C

Big Country said:


> I am glad that you can determine exactly who matters in this world, and who is irrelevant.
> 
> I am seeing a trend here in your posting, and it is pointing towards an elitist with an inflated opinion of themselves.
> 
> While you are saving the state of WI from those contraptions from the devil himself, i will be hunting Canadian black bear with my recurve bow. One hunting friend will also be using his recurve, several friends will be using compounds, and one friend will be using a crossbow.
> 
> We might even let that last friend sleep in the camp with us "real" hunters.


He is arrogant and cowardly. He won't answer but I already know what the reason is. 

He's proven himself to be a dishonest and evasive troll


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## wisbowparker

i say let hunters hunt with whatever they want. archery is archery crossbow or compound. that how i see it. i'm from wisconsin


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## Scarlet Dew

Rancid Crabtree said:


> More than willing. I just share answers with the those that matter in the grand scheme. This is just practice in a pretend world.


This *is* good practice in here..........and how they quickly resort to desperate attempts to cut those off at the knees they don't know how to manipulate with the word "elitists". *LOL!!!*

The answers and discussions that matter most don't happen on the internet where trolls lay under every post to pounce on........'cause they got *no other place *to play the game *that get results *with their Shiney looking stars and Disney avatars.....and that aggrevates the stink out of them..........but they are fun to watch stomping around in here aren't they. :shade:

You have the correct approach Crabtree...........enjoy the "same old" fireworks show in the process........and keep the information that counts in front of the ones that truely count. 

Elitists.....................*LOL!!!*


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## Scarlet Dew

Big Country said:


> I am glad that you can determine exactly who matters in this world, and who is irrelevant.


Don't feel bad.............I'm sure you matter to someone out there and are relevant. :smile:


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## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> ........... Our bowhunter numbers are near record for the numbers of bowhunters. The Full details and stats and particulars And reasons are shared with state policy makers who matter. .........



Are you sharing with them that archery tag numbers jumped after the crossbow over 65 was allowed? You do know that the over 65 and the physically challenged permit holders need to buy archery tags too, don't you? You do know that not all archery tag holders shoot vetrical bows don't you?

*OR*

Are you being dishonest with the legislators and telling them that all these achery tag holders are vertical bow hunters?

This is why your house of cards will fall some day.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Great question WIllie. Handicapped individuals in WI could use a crossbow for many years. Back in 2002, the elderly (65 and older) were granted the ability to use a crossbow. Here are the number of archery deer licenses sold over the years.


1996........*235,780*


1997........*237,991*


1998........*241,391*


1999........*252,322*


2000........*258,002*


2001........*260,239* (last year prior to allowing 65 and older to use crossbow. Very constant and steady growth)


2002......*227,124 *(The first year crossbows were allowed for 65 and older.) To the untrained eye, it looks like changing the law created a huge drop in archery tag sales to the tune of -33,115. To residents of WI, we know it to be the result of the fact that the deer harvest of 2001 produced several deer that tested positive for CWD. By the fall of 2002, the hysteria was at a fever pitch. That fall 70,000 gun hunters also stopped hunting deer.


2003.......*247,211 *(the hysteria is wearing off. Newspapers report hunters less worried about CWD.)


2004.......*252,602* (CWD fears wearing off a bit more but the DNR institutes the EAB program making hunters harvest a doe before they can kill a buck. Since gun hunters want to kill a buck on opening moring, more join the ranks of Bowhunter to kill their doe before the opener of the gun season to get the coveted EAB sticker for the gun season)


2005.......*247,309 *(gun hunter numbers also fell that year. Why? 2005 was NOT an EAB year and nobody had to kill a doe to prequalify for a buck tag in advance of the gun deer season. 4th year that residents 65 and older can use a crossbow.


2006.......*258,394 *(people are sick of hearing about CWD and realize it is not a risk to humans. archery tag sales jump 11,000 because the DNR brought back EAB so people bowhunted to kill their doe prior to the gun season so they had a buck tag in their pocket for the gun opener) DNR does bowhunter survey of those that hunted the 2005 season and finds hunters do not approve of crossbows. Survey shows 2.8% are using crossbows, DNR conversation establishes that the bulk of 2.8% are existing handicapped permit holders. Next survey to be conducted in 2010.


2007.......*258,854 *(we are almost back to pre CWD numbers and its another EAB year but the herd is crashing. hunters tell the DNR but they are convinced the herd is growing.)


2008.......*259,921 *(only 318 less than the record year. People just don't care about CWD any more and it's another EAB year. The deer herd is tanking even more but the DNR is convinced the herd is growing. Hunters rebel and take to the state Capital to protest.)


Spring 2009........ DNR admits their population estimates were far too high and that they overestimated the size of the herd. More hearings at the state capital. Insurance industry downgrades WI from the 3rd highest car kill state to the 8th ranked. The herd has crashed both in terms of hunter harvest but also car deer collisions. These hearings result in the EAB program being killed outside the CWD units)


Fall 2009........... Hunters angry, many close their lands to all hunting and stop buying licenses until herd rebounds. 13 units designated buck only, no antlerless harvest permitted. Number of archery licenses sold not yet published but expect it to have dropped in protest of hunting regulations and lack of deer. Estimate it to be 240,000.


Spring 2010, DNR totals the 2009 archery kill. 8th ranked season for antlerless deer, 9th ranked season for total harvest, 4th ranked season for bucks (no EAB meaning no restriction on buck harvest) DNR conducts Bowhunter survey. Results to be published in Late May or early June. These results will show the current opinions on crossbows and what percent of current bowhunters are using crossbows.


The number of archery deer tag sales in WI rises and falls based on things like DNR management prescriptions (like EAB) and the size of the deer herd and the numbers since 2002 were affected by CWD. Prior to the discovery of CWD, WI was on a steady increase of archery deer tag sales. There is no indication that allowing those 65 and older plays any role in the sharp decrease of 2002 or the return to stable numbers in 2008. At best, those using crossbows by virtue of being 65 or older amounts to 1% of the bowhunting public. Since those folks may have already been bowhunting with a bow, no WI data available to indicate they changed the number of licenses sold by any appreciable amount. Looking at the numbers alone (without the benefit of the background data), one could summize that allowing crossbows for the elderly resulted in a sharp drop in bowhunting tags sales but we like to keep things real and truthfull because the legislature is made up of both gun and bowhunters who know the truth. 


This does however indicate the need for a separate crossbow permit or registration or stamp to be able to gather the missing data or usage patterns.


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## Redclub

You did some good work , During the EAB years there were more archery tags sold but not necessarily more bowhunters, Tell your buddy/relative to shoot a doe and it will be tagged,sometimes more than once.
According to the DNR (at a luncheon/banquet) he stated the largest increase segment of hunting was archers over 65 and young females
Redclub


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## willie

Redclub said:


> ............
> According to the DNR (at a luncheon/banquet) he stated the largest increase segment of hunting was archers over 65 and young females
> Redclub


65 and over just don't all of a sudden take up bowhunting. They take up crossbow hunting.

Same with the young ladies..

As RC pointed out the over 65 group is not much.

*IF* a DNR truly wants to retain the older bowhunters that age should be no older than 55. There is way too much data out there that says the bowhunters that do drop out start at age 50-55. I doubt very seriosuly that if someone has been out of bowhunting for 10 to 15 years that they would all of a sudden get back in it at age 65 just becaaue they can use a crossbow. There will be some, but not enough.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Redclub said:


> You did some good work , During the EAB years there were more archery tags sold but not necessarily more bowhunters, Tell your buddy/relative to shoot a doe and it will be tagged,sometimes more than once.
> According to the DNR (at a luncheon/banquet) he stated the largest increase segment of hunting was archers over 65 and young females
> Redclub


You live here so you know that all I said is the truth. We will see our deer hunter numbers drop but it will be because mismanagement of the herd, not lack of weapons choices. Nobody is excluded from bowhunting in WI. Hunters quitting and closing their lands is due to herd issues . Deer hunters in WI are not saying or thinking "boy, I wish there were more people and more ways to kill deer here". Gun hunters especially don't want more deer killed by bowhunters and bowhunters are also frustrated with the low population. That is why this is a perfect time from a big push for crossbows. That would kill any talk of this for a very long time. We just need somebody to make an agressive push (hopefully from out of state). Timing is everything and Willie wants the house of cards to fall. Let's see some action. I can just picture the hearing chambers now. LOL


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## Rancid Crabtree

http://www.onwisconsinoutdoors.com/pdf-files/deer_count_off122109.pdf

http://ronkulas.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=deerpop&action=display&thread=137&page=1#1261490866

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/79492272.html


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## Jim C

so many posts and not one straight answer from the anti xbow cowards


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## Rancid Crabtree

Your inability to read and comprehend cant be blamed on me. Face it. Your opinion matters not. I have been dealing with those that do matter while you try To be clever in a chat room. Good luck with that.

by now you are aware that The majority of WI hunters do not want crossbows. Come to grips with that and your levels of frustration and anger will melt away.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Your inability to read and comprehend cant be blamed on me. Face it. Your opinion matters not. I have been dealing with those that do matter while you try To be clever in a chat room. Good luck with that.
> 
> by now you are aware that The majority of WI hunters do not want crossbows. Come to grips with that and your levels of frustration and anger will melt away.


you are a pompous donkey. the majority of whites in the south didn't want blacks voting either. so what, they lost that battle. If you want to confine your arrogant braying to a place where only people from your state post than do so. This is an international board. And Your claim who counts or not is a bit silly. I have had conversations with politicians of other states. You see, I know alot more about archery than you do. You are a little nobody sitting in your little world pretending that you have some standing. You prove you do not have the intelligence to argue rationally


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## Rancid Crabtree

Hehehehe I can just picture you with clenched fists pounding out the rage on your keyboard. What a hoot. Take a break. Do some reading. I posted some good info that should help you.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Hehehehe I can just picture you with clenched fists pounding out the rage on your keyboard. What a hoot. Take a break. Do some reading. I posted some good info that should help you.


you are as ignorant of me and how I see this issue as you are of archery

I have been around along time and listened to blowhards like you in Ohio and many other states. You keep losing and we keep winning.


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## Rancid Crabtree

I will say it again. They have not yet invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care about you, your opinions and your inflated self worth. You mean squat. I do get a kick out of you. Your a scrappy lil fella with a lot of heart. Misdirected and wrong but still entertaining. 

it would be great if you made an aggresive push for crossbows here. WI residents and legislators will just love that. Until then I have a hard time taking you seriously.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I will say it again. They have not yet invented a device sensitive enough to detect how little I care about you, your opinions and your inflated self worth. You mean squat. I do get a kick out of you. Your a scrappy lil fella with a lot of heart. Misdirected and wrong but still entertaining.
> 
> it would be great if you made an aggresive push for crossbows here. WI residents and legislators will just love that. Until then I have a hard time taking you seriously.


still waiting for you to explain your position. I have no problem explaining mine. I have nothing to hide. SInce i have trained national champions in compound, recurve, crossbow and barebow I know that your rants about xbows being too easy are just stupid and like most of the anti xbow clowns-you confuse shooting skill with hunting skill. 

But I note you are afraid to tell us how you are hurt by allowing any other hunter to use a crossbow rather than a compound or a "wounder" as some call trad bows


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## Jim C

Having debated dozens of issues on dozens of boards, I have learned that when someone-when asked to back up a position-refuses to repost it but claims the answer can be found in previous posts, they are almost always lying dishonest little weasels.

I have no problem explaining my position

1) using a crossbow has no deleterious impact on other hunters since hunting is not a competition between hunters

2) the legalization of compound and release has made the claim that crossbows are too easy idiotic

3) ego problems and greed is the only motivation for the anti crossbow crowd

4) people ought to be able to use what they want as long as it is archery tackle and has the same general predicted harvest rate


Now Rancid-post up


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## Rancid Crabtree

Glad to hear it. Everything you hope to know is currently being discussed with those that matter. While it angers you to no end, your not one of those that matter. Nothing personal (even though you hope to make personal) you want to think you are all that and a bag of chips but in this matter......... Not so much. Keep asking though. I never tire of hearing you beg for the playbook.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Glad to hear it. Everything you hope to know is currently being discussed with those that matter. While it angers you to no end, your not one of those that matter. Nothing personal (even though you hope to make personal) you want to think you are all that and a bag of chips but in this matter......... Not so much. Keep asking though. I never tire of hearing you beg for the playbook.


I do this to prove my point about people like you

that you are afraid to repost your reasons proves that I am correct

why do you hide your online status rancid?


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## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> why do you hide your online status rancid?


Im not sure what more I could post that has not already there. Also, I'm unsure what this has to do with the subject at hand but since you seem to be hooked on me. (Im married my the way) I'm flattered that you care so much but I'm spoken for. At any rate, Here is a link to more info about me. Read up.


http://ronkulas.proboards.com/


At the same time, you will want to know that I could care less about who you are. You seem overly interested in wanting to tell us (over and over) but I'm sorry to say, I just don't care.


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## Jim C

still cannot post a simple argument for all to see?

saying "we know this is a bow" hardly cuts it

again people claimed compounds were not bows at one time

ARCHERY INVOLVES SHOOTING A BOW

THE ASA HAS A CROSSBOW DIVISION

THE NAA HAS A CROSSBOW DIVISION

THE IBO HAS A CROSSBOW DIVISION

THE NFAA HAS A CROSSBOW DIVISION

NONE OF THEM HAVE A GUN DIVISION

you lose


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## Rancid Crabtree

super D duper. Thanks for that. WI has a crossbow division too. It's for the elderly and handicapped. WE win :teeth:

Perhaps you know the answers to these

1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. Are crossbows always the right answer for every state?


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## Jim C

you really are silly

your stupid blog claims xbows should be banned because they are more like guns (which didn't exist for the first few thousand years xbows were around) than bows which is moronic

most bans in some states are based on liars and dishonest people who flood adminstrators with such bull poop

tell me Ron, how are you hurt by someone using a crossbow?


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## Rancid Crabtree

I'm glad you are enjoying my site. Pour yourself a cup of coffee and spend some time reading. You will however want to pay better attention while reading. You have already misunderstood what you have read. You just said that my blog claims crossbows should be banned. That of course is not at all true. I posted no such thing. How can something be banned that is not legal to begin with (elderly and handicapped not withstanding) 

Check out some of the deer herd related topics. You could stand to gain some insight into WI and the current situation. Those questions I just posted above, may help you as well. Before long, you will be able to answer your own questions about why hunters in WI are opposed to full intrustion in WI.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'm glad you are enjoying my site. Pour yourself a cup of coffee and spend some time reading. You will however want to pay better attention while reading. You have already misunderstood what you have read. You just said that my blog claims crossbows should be banned. That of course is not at all true. I posted no such thing. How can something be banned that is not legal to begin with (elderly and handicapped not withstanding)
> 
> Check out some of the deer herd related topics. You could stand to gain some insight into WI and the current situation. Those questions I just posted above, may help you as well. Before long, you will be able to answer your own questions about why hunters in WI are opposed to full intrustion in WI.


more dishonest nonsense from you

banned from hunting in the archery season

stop your silly little evasions. You don't have the intelligence to play such a game with me (or Willie etc)


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## sits in trees

crossbows are gaining popularity all across this country and every year another state or more legalizes them, it give hunters the option of another weapon which we call choice, it gives older hunters the chance to stay in the bow woods a few years longer, it gives women and kids the chance to hunt with a weapon that will really kill something unlike a 35lb vert bow.
so give up your fight against crossbows, it's anti hunting and years from now you will look back at your anti crossbow arguments and say to yourself "what an IDIOT!:shade:


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## Jim C

sits in trees said:


> crossbows are gaining popularity all across this country and every year another state or more legalizes them, it give hunters the option of another weapon which we call choice, it gives older hunters the chance to stay in the bow woods a few years longer, it gives women and kids the chance to hunt with a weapon that will really kill something unlike a 35lb vert bow.
> so give up your fight against crossbows, it's anti hunting and years from now you will look back at your anti crossbow arguments and say to yourself "what an IDIOT!:shade:


Good post

Poeple like Ron are afraid that some hot chick in a bar is going to think he hunts with a crossbow when he brags about bagging Moby Buck. I know more than a few trads who worry xbow archers are going to impose a proficiency test as a pre-requisite to getting a hunting tag for archery (in NYS it used to be you had to pass a shooting test to hunt on some state lands)


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## Rancid Crabtree

Gosh, thats great and all but lets try this again.


1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. Are crossbows always the right answer for every state?


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## Jim C

Losers don't want to share "their woods" with anyone else. They think (correctly) that treating xbows the same as release fired compound bows will mean more people hunting. They don't like that. They also think (even though there is NO PROFICIENCY TESTS) that since one can gain hunting accuracy slightly faster with a crossbow (especially if you have been in the military or know how to shoot a rifle) than a compound bow, those crossbow hunters (once again Ron confusing hunting skills with archery skills) haven't "EARNED" the right to hunt in RON'S SEASON


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## Rancid Crabtree

Hellooooooooooooo......... Is this thing on? tap tap tap. Can you hear me now?

1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. since the majority of WI hunters oppose full intrustion of xguns, should the laws remain unchanged?

Jimmy, In the arena of ideas, thus far you have been found wanting and sorely unarmed. You hope to talk about me (thats great and all and I can go on for hours if you like) but this is about crossbows in WI and why the majority of hunter are not in favor of full intrusion. Try to stay on point. Set aside your rage and frustration and pay attention.


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## willie

.


















.


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## Jim C

willie said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .





LOL

I like getting a good collection of evasions from the source of stupidity. I save them for use in other areas.


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## badomen

ok after reading quite a bit of this nonsense i'm left asking the questions -why would anyone want to turn people away from joining us and enjoying the outdoors? The more people we can encourage to hunt regardless of what weapon the use the better off it will be for all of us in the end. The argument about your deer herd is simply a guise to hide your real opinions. If there is a larger number of hunters then the simple answer is limit the number of tags. I feel like you would have a better argument using your logic as to push for the banning of rifle hunting. People use different weapons because they want different levels of difficulty in their hunts. More advanced hunters look for a bigger challenge then shooting a deer with a rifle so they move to a muzzle loader... then to a bow and arrow... why not include another stepping stone in between muzzle loader and bow and arrow? It's only going to encourage people looking for a bigger challenge then the muzzle loader but aren't willing or capable of doing it with a compound bow. We are all hunters and trying to divide the ranks will only help with the downfall of our sport. 

And yes I realize i'm not from Wisconsin but this is a public forum and if you were really concerned with just pushing your agenda to your fellow residents you would be having this argument in your state forum on AT. You can study facts and numbers all day long but if you dont take a step back and use a little common sense then you become in uninformed.


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## Redclub

Geez you guys can type faster than I can read Maybe I can answer some points, Way back when the compounds came out (I got a Allen Then a Jennings 17% let off) I stated that they are going to ruin bowhunting as we know it and it did. Yes it happened? Here is MY opinion at that time we could go to just about any farm and ask to bowhunt and were given permission as we were thought of as kinda weird trying to get a deer with an arrow? OK here comes the compound and fella's started to see that deer could be killed with these and at the time they sure were not any better than a Good recurve. IT was the preception that mattered and pretty soon a lot of hunters got a bow and learned a lot more about deer hunting than they ever knew. Now land got posted and area's that we could hunt where no longer available:angry:. Was it all because of compounds,probably not but it sure hastened things. Next came alum arrows, then carbon, broadheads have really improved, I used to buy bear heads by the gross (144 I think) to get a dozen to fly good. Then came lighted sights, To me that was a very big step along with treestands becoming legal. Then releases came on board which enabled very short bows with huge let-offs (before that finger shooters like me needed a large sight window). Good grief now we can even use bait:thumbs_do When I turned 60 I tore my right bicep tendon off my forearm and had 3 surgeries to repair it nope I could not get a temporary X-Bow permit as the doctor who performed the surgeries would not sign the papers (should have sued his arse) as he was against hunting I had to miss a year and the finally found a doc. to ok the permit. It was not easy, Since I am now 69 no need for the permit. Anyway back to issue. At the present time standard archery equipment is compound with all the gadgets and that is accepted. Archers are afraid of x-bows as I was of compounds albeit for different but same reasons, loss of bowhunting opportunities. Me because of lost hunting lands and archers because of fear of too many bow registered deer kills (not dead deer tho because of wounding). In certain applications a x-bow has advantages such as hunting towers and blinds where room to pull back is limited. Regular archer has advantages in treestands because of vertical vs.horizontal. A x-bow has a reduction of at least 30% of shooting area. But its not about reality its how its perceived and that is what counts just as compounds versus recurves way back when.
As far as revenue it doesn't take much science to explain that say 10,000 hunters buy x-bows at $1000 for a set-up thats 10,000,000 for sales tax, sold equipment P-R funds ETC. But thats not what its all about. Just choice,
We all know archers who shouldn't be out with a bow and even some with a x-bow but not as high a percentage.
No we are not going to get x-bows for everyone for at least 10 years or more and yes thats for Wi. to decide I just hope Wi. hunters decide and not just a select few.
Redclub


----------



## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I'm glad you are enjoying my site. Pour yourself a cup of coffee and spend some time reading. You will however want to pay better attention while reading. You have already misunderstood what you have read. You just said that my blog claims crossbows should be banned. That of course is not at all true. I posted no such thing. How can something be banned that is not legal to begin with (elderly and handicapped not withstanding)
> 
> Check out some of the deer herd related topics. You could stand to gain some insight into WI and the current situation. Those questions I just posted above, may help you as well. *Before long, you will be able to answer your own questions about why hunters in WI are opposed to full intrustion in WI.*


I already know the EXACT reason why there is a majority of WI hunters opposing the crossbows full inclusion........

People just like YOU spreading misinformation, and doing so in a manner that hides the truth about crossbows.

If you were not dishonest, you would eagerly state your reason for being against crossbows.

I will give you credit for one thing.......you are smart enough to continually refuse to answer the straightforward questions that have been asked of you.

To answer those questions would immediately shine a huge light on your elitism and divisive stance.

Selfishness sucks..........


----------



## Jim C

Big Country said:


> I already know the EXACT reason why there is a majority of WI hunters opposing the crossbows full inclusion........
> 
> People just like YOU spreading misinformation, and doing so in a manner that hides the truth about crossbows.
> 
> If you were not dishonest, you would eagerly state your reason for being against crossbows.
> 
> I will give you credit for one thing.......you are smart enough to continually refuse to answer the straightforward questions that have been asked of you.
> 
> To answer those questions would immediately shine a huge light on your elitism and divisive stance.
> 
> Selfishness sucks..........



they know telling the public what really motivates them would do to their movement. Its like asking sarah brady why she pushes for gun control. It has nothing to do with stopping crime


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Well stated redclub. Good to see a WI poster in this thread. You have a firm understanding of the WI situation that these non-resident guys cant come close to grasping. They don't live it so they are clueless yet they promote themselves as experts in the WI condition. They talk about evading (makes me giggle every time) but I posted several good questions for them and they go mute.  Lets try it again. It seems to act like garlic to the vampires.

1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. since the majority of WI hunters oppose full intrustion of xguns, should the laws remain unchanged?


----------



## Big Country

More running and ducking...........

The question has been asked more than once......why do YOU oppose crossbows?

Please do not attempt to portray that you know more about vertical bow hunting than some of us that are asking the reason for your divisive stance.....because you do not.

Impact studies can easily be generated by using data from the growing number of states that have included crossbows into archery season.

WI is not unique in regards to any impact crossbows would have......


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Then you should have no problems with the list. Mr. PA resident


----------



## Jim C

Big Country said:


> More running and ducking...........
> 
> The question has been asked more than once......why do YOU oppose crossbows?
> 
> Please do not attempt to portray that you know more about vertical bow hunting than some of us that are asking the reason for your divisive stance.....because you do not.
> 
> Impact studies can easily be generated by using data from the growing number of states that have included crossbows into archery season.
> 
> WI is not unique in regards to any impact crossbows would have......


I alreadly told you his reasons. I know this disease and have been fighting it for 30 years

Its called greed and self esteem issues

He won't answer because he is afraid that a real answer will demonstrate to those on the sidelines what truly motivates people like him.

He doesn't want anyone killing "HIS" deer with a crossbow


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## mymathewsblewup

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Then you should have no problems with the list. Mr. PA resident


this guy obviously doesnt realize that if he has ever shot a deer with a gun that he is a t total hypocrit


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## Rancid Crabtree

Great point. WI has a shoulder fired, scoped, stocked weapon season where deer hunters can lean their cheek into the stock and look through the scope and slide their finger into the trigger guard and flip off the safety to take a shot at a deer. I enjoy that season as well.

But during the archery deer season, I use a homemade longbow and homemade broadheads. When the deer gets spitting close, I draw back my bow with only the power the Goog Lord gave me. I them hold the draw back with those same muscles and if the shot does not present itself. I let down and go through it all over again. No stored, cocked, shoulder fired weapons for me during the archery deer seaon in WI.


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Great point. WI has a shoulder fired, scoped, stocked weapon season where deer hunters can lean their cheek into the stock and look through the scope and slide their finger into the trigger guard and flip off the safety to take a shot at a deer. I enjoy that season as well.
> 
> But during the archery deer season, I use a homemade longbow and homemade broadheads. When the deer gets spitting close, I draw back my bow with only the power the Goog Lord gave me. I them hold the draw back with those same muscles and if the shot does not present itself. I let down and go through it all over again. No stored, cocked, shoulder fired weapons for me during the archery deer seaon in WI.


What? You never use a compound? I think I can find where you said that you hunt with both.

Let me lay it on you about 95% (compound hunters)of the bowhunters today...

BOWHUNTING IS NOT HARD..

It's not hard to learn and it's not hard to do. 

Now, once upon a time it was. Back when we all shot a stick and string with cedar-shafted arrows with those confounded Zwickey Deltas that no one could get to fly straight. 

If a bowhunter cut a track of a deer he was really doing something. Tell someone you saw a buck and you'd have 4 or 5 guys right around you on the next hunt. 

There were very few if any deer to hunt in most locations. To kill my first one I had to drive 11 hours to Pennsylvania where they actually had deer. Forget portable treestands, they weren't invented yet. Neither was the Hollis Allen's Arrow Launching Device aka The Compound Bow.

NOR any of all those other fancy doo-dads that are hung all over what people call bows today. Want to learn about bowhunting in those days? You better know someone that did it or you would have to learn on your own by trial and error and error and error.

There were very few books on the subject and Bowhunter magazine had not even started to press yet. Big buck videos? Get real. If you saw any bowhunting 'movies' it was Fred Bear on The American Sportsmen.

Fast forward to today....

Deer are everywhere. They are becoming hoofed rats in some locations, pests, and vermin to some. If a bowhunter comes in from a hunt and doesn't see 5 or 6 he thinks he had a bad hunt. 

The bowhunter has the latest and greatest arrow-slinging bow with every imaginable doo-dad there is on it. That bow now breaks over by 80% OR MORE and he triggers it with a $100 release aid. No more holding back that full 50 pounds and getting the shakes while waiting for that deer to take one more step. "Take you time Mr. Buck I'm only holding back 5 pounds". 

Of course he is outfitted in all the latest deer hunting camo with scent suppressant underwear. His stand is a $250 climber that he can sit all day over his Buck Forage Oat food/killing plot. He has every little stake ranged in with his range finder. Any deer that walks out is dead meat. He tooled in there with his $10,000 ATV.

Did I mention that he knew there was a big buck using the area? Did he find out the old fashioned way by scouting? Nope. He had out several $500 trail cameras and got his picture and date and time he was where. He has “patterned him”.

Deer are everywhere so he can afford to be choosy. Gone are the days when any deer with a bow was a trophy. It has to be P & Y are it isn't worthy anymore. 

Now all this gear to do *WHAT?*

*TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR HIM TO KILL A DEER.*

No folks, you can beat your chest and say how hard bowhunting is but it really isn’t anymore. We have taken the challenge out of it. Technology has caught up with bowhunting.

You youngsters probably don't have a clue to what I am talking about since this is all you have ever known, but the old-timers on here know what I am talking about..

Now this is not bad-mouthing bowhunting as I am a bowhunter. I am just telling you from 39+ years of bowhunting experience what I have seen and what I see bowhunting is today.

It ain't tough anymore.

Now what does this have to do with crossbows? We have made bowhunting and the equipment easy and easier. We can congratulate ourselves in the fact that compounds are equivalent to crossbows in ease of use.

To say anything else is being in a state of denial..


----------



## sits in trees

just say yes, yes, yes and put these misguided people who call themselves hunters in thier place, they are bad for the sport and should take up golf where they can join high polluting country clubs where their snobbery will be perfectly accepted:teeth:


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## Raymond 1

HERE, HERE, you said it. Never a more truthful word spoken. 100 percent right. I think there should be a pole to vote on that. Watch those suckers scramble onto that, LOL. I think you should take Rancid's place. What good job you would do. Most of the hunters in Wisconsin is being misrepresented by those idiots anyway.
Raymond


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## Redclub

Willie those old days of bowhunting were sure great, We would take an evening off hunting and drive around to locate deer in farmers field, then for the next week or two we would hunt these area's ,no problem with getting permission hunting off the ground wasn't legal either and we shot every deer we could, Heck we had kids to feed. Sure has changed.
Redclub


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## Rancid Crabtree

Willie says:


> "compounds are equivilant to crossbows for ease of use"


Good one. Im guessing you may have actually convinced yourself of this. The rest of us know better......... How? Because the handicapped and elderly are not told they must use the compound. They are allowed to use a crossbow. Why? Well it sure as he'll isn't because it is equivilant to the compound for ease of use. Willie, you of all people should know this. Why is it you use a crossbow? If it is equivilant to a compound, then why not use a compound? Don't you just hate it when your own words expose you? 

something tells me that you desperately want the stigma of "handicaped" crossbow user removed for personal reasons.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Sits in trees, it's not "high polluting" good grief.

http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/high-falutin'

But it's always good to hear fron another non resident of the great state of Wisconsin who thinks his opinion matters in this.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Willie says:
> 
> Good one. Im guessing you may have actually convinced yourself of this. The rest of us know better......... How? Because the handicapped and elderly are not told they must use the compound. They are allowed to use a crossbow. Why? Well it sure as he'll isn't because it is equivilant to the compound for ease of use. Willie, you of all people should know this. Why is it you use a crossbow? If it is equivilant to a compound, then why not use a compound? Don't you just hate it when your own words expose you?
> 
> something tells me that you desperately want the stigma of "handicaped" crossbow user removed for personal reasons.


what stigma of a crossbow? I used to hang out at a range shooting a crossbow. Invariably some rancid clown would make some comment xbows were for people who cannot shoot real bows. LOL-five bucks said I could out shoot them with a recurve or a compound. Never lost any money


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Willie says:
> 
> Good one. Im guessing you may have actually convinced yourself of this. The rest of us know better......... How? Because the handicapped and elderly are not told they must use the compound. They are allowed to use a crossbow. Why? Well it sure as he'll isn't because it is equivilant to the compound for ease of use. Willie, you of all people should know this. Why is it you use a crossbow? If it is equivilant to a compound, then why not use a compound? Don't you just hate it when your own words expose you?
> 
> something tells me that you desperately want the stigma of "handicaped" crossbow user removed for personal reasons.


Your total ignorance of crossbows is amazing

The *ONLY* thing a crossbow does for a "handicapped and elderly" hunters is to allow the string to be mechanically drawn, period. Something that because of their inabilities they cannot do for themselves. *NOTHING* more and nothing less. How dense can someone be that cannot fathom that?

The crossbow is not easier to hunt with. It will not hunt your deer or turkey for you. You still have to figure out where and when to set up on the animal that you are after. You still have to get within arrow range of the animal that you are after.

You forget. I am the one here that has hunted with recurves, compounds *AND* crossbows. Not you.

Do you think that crossbow got me within 20 yards of this buck last year on three different occasions? He was killable no matter what archery hunting tool I had in my hands. The *ONLY* thing that saved him is he is a 3 year old that is not quite there yet. Maybe this year. It is the *HUNT* that counts, not what piece of archery hunting gear that you have in your hands.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/?action=view&current=PB090120-1.flv

Read this very slow so it will sink in - *The ONLY thing a crossbow does for a "handicapped and elderly" hunters is allow the string to be mechanically drawn, period.*



> Don't you just hate it when your own words expose you?


Yes sir - It sure exposed your total ignorance of crossbows.



> something tells me that you desperately want the stigma of "handicaped" crossbow user removed for personal reasons


.

"Something tells me" that you are listening to someone that has no clue about me and the reason I advocate crossbows. He makes up crap all the time. You two are two of a kind and richly deserve each other..

So, do you not hunt with a compound too?


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> But during the archery deer season, I use a homemade longbow and homemade broadheads. When the deer gets spitting close, I draw back my bow with only the power the Goog Lord gave me. I them hold the draw back with those same muscles and if the shot does not present itself. I let down and go through it all over again. No stored, cocked, shoulder fired weapons for me during the archery deer seaon in WI.


On another thread Rancid posted -



> "I have used Phantoms out of a Bowtech set at 65# and shooting 280 FPS while using blazer vanes and was spot on out to 60 yards. It's not the head, it's the entire package of bow, arrow and head and to have to be tuned to allow you to shoot any broadhead."


"Spitting close"??? LMAO.. How about 60 yards? Can you spit that far RC?

Are those "muscles" holding back a full 13 pounds of that Bowtech?

What a *PHONY!*


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

I have taken deer with all manner of legal bow in WI. I have been doing it for 34 years. 37 deer and a bear with a bow and not one over 18 yards. Most at 10 yards or less.

Willie, I'm not interested in why you are a crossbow advocate. I commented on why you are a crossbow *user* and that you don't care for the label of handicapped hunter. I bought my first crossbow back in 1982. I shot the living hell out of it but you can't hunt with one in WI. Since then, I have purchased 2 Hortons (recurve and compound versions) for my 74 year old father. Since I am both a gun and bowhunter. I know full well what the advantages to me would be if I used a crossbow. For my Father, I do his sighting, cocking, bolt building, blind building, rattling, calling, ect. The crossbow is a great deal for the elderly and handicapped. It's ease of use is the perfect ticket for those that cant use a bow.

Willie, you stated that "compounds are equivalent to crossbows for ease of use" 

and now you are retracting that. Which is it? Not having to draw and not having to hold the draw and being able to shoot from a rest or rail sure seem like a diff. from a bow yet you label them as equivalent. You talk about the things prior to the shot. You DID NOT say that hunting was easier. You said the compound and the crossbow are quivalent for ease of use. Hunting, patterning, woodsmanship have never been the issue, nor have the thing that happen after the shot yet you seem to always hope to distract and change the subject. All of those things are true for even those hunting with a camera or gun and have never been the issue. Once again, your exposed and you fail. Very entertaining. Lets try this again.


1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. Since the majority of WI hunters oppose full intrustion of xguns, should the laws remain unchanged? 

15. What is the max draw weight that crossbows can achieve. What are the limits?


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Sits in trees, it's not "high polluting" good grief.
> 
> http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/high-falutin'
> 
> But it's always good to hear fron another non resident of the great state of Wisconsin who thinks his opinion matters in this.



No, he is right. Your self appointed elitist clubs do actually "pollute" the hunting scene.


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> I have taken deer with all manner of legal bow in WI. I have been doing it for 34 years. 37 deer and a bear with a bow and not one over 18 yards. Most at 10 yards or less.
> 
> *“All manner of legal bow”? I’m sorry, but is not that trophy picture that you posted your ”first trad deer”? *
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=784591
> 
> *By your post your post of - “But during the archery deer season, I use a homemade longbow and homemade broadheads. When the deer gets spitting close, I draw back my bow with only the power the Goog Lord gave me. I them hold the draw back with those same muscles and if the shot does not present itself. I let down and go through it all over again. No stored, cocked, shoulder fired weapons for me during the archery deer seaon in WI.”  would like us to believe that you are the second coming of Fred Bear when in all actuality you are just like 95% of all the bowhunters and use the easy to shoot modern high tech, high let off compound all the while badmouthing a crossbower.
> 
> 
> BTW - I’ve got you doubled in number of deer (at least), bear and throw in a couple elk and pronghorns. In 40+ years I’ve bowhunted 11 states (some multiple times) and 2 provinces.*
> 
> Willie, I'm not interested in why you are a crossbow advocate. I commented on why you are a crossbow *user* and that you don't care for the label of handicapped hunter.
> 
> *No, you are polly parroting another person. Most anti-crossbowers are good at polly parroting as very few can think for themselves. My only comments on “handicapped” is that one should not have to be handicapped (or elderly) to use a crossbow. It is a fine piece of archery equipment that should be available to everyone. How you and Joe stretch that about me and “handicapped” is beyond me except that you all see that as just anotehr way to denigrate me.*
> 
> I bought my first crossbow back in 1982. I shot the living hell out of it but you can't hunt with one in WI. Since then, I have purchased 2 Hortons (recurve and compound versions) for my 74 year old father. Since I am both a gun and bowhunter. I know full well what the advantages to me would be if I used a crossbow. For my Father, I do his sighting, cocking, bolt building, blind building, rattling, calling, ect. The crossbow is a great deal for the elderly and handicapped. It's ease of use is the perfect ticket for those that cant use a bow.
> 
> *Then you do recognize that crossbows are archery equipment as no state allows anything but archery equipment in the archery seasons – handicapped, elderly or otherwsie.*
> 
> Willie, you stated that "compounds are equivalent to crossbows for ease of use" and now you are retracting that. Which is it?
> 
> *Not sure how far you went in school or what your reading comprehension skills are, but I have never “retracted’ anything.
> 
> Either hunting tool (modern compound or crossbow ) can be learned by a novice sufficiently in a matter of a few hours to acquire hunting accuracy.
> 
> How much more easier or “equivalent” can that be?*
> 
> Not having to draw and not having to hold the draw and being able to shoot from a rest or rail sure seem like a diff. from a bow yet you label them as equivalent. You talk about the things prior to the shot. You DID NOT say that hunting was easier. You said the compound and the crossbow are quivalent for ease of use. Hunting, patterning, woodsmanship have never been the issue, nor have the thing that happen after the shot yet you seem to always hope to distract and change the subject. All of those things are true for even those hunting with a camera or gun and have never been the issue. Once again, your exposed and you fail. Very entertaining.
> 
> 
> *There are numerous HUNTING (which is what the discussion is about) pros and cons for any type of archery equipment.
> 
> 
> Accuracy
> 
> Shooting off hand the compound wins hands down. That is proven out at any archery event where the compounds and crossbows shoot the same targets. If the crossbower can use a rest then the tables are reversed. Resting a crossbow is not always possible in a deer hunting situation as one never knows when and where a deer will come by a set up.
> 
> Although a hunting tool’s good accuracy is a positive and not a negative desire.
> 
> 
> Trajectory
> 
> In most bow hunting conditions (less than 25 yards) there is no difference as both the compound bow and crossbow will generate approximately the same feet per second and kinetic energy. Downrange the compound will win hands down as the shorter arrow of a crossbow does not stabilize as well and will lose feet per second in speed and KE faster than a compound bow shot (longer) arrow as it attempts to correct itself in flight.
> 
> 
> Weight
> 
> Most crossbows weigh in at right around 6 pounds. That is close to the weight of a lot of rifles and shotguns. The compound bows weigh in much less at 3 to 3 ½ pounds. Not a big deal unless one is also packing in a stand, ladder or other equipment. Or hot footing it up and down mountains chasing elk/mule deer out West.
> 
> 
> Clearances
> 
> Because of the horizontal limbs a crossbow is much harder to pack into the woods on the way to the stand or still hunting. When hunting from a treestand the horizontal limbs have a major conflict with the vertical tree we are in. It is extremely difficult to shoot behind the treestand as the limbs and string will not allow the crossbow to be up against the tree like a compound bow would. That alone pretty well evens out the “crossbowers don’t have to draw in the presence of game argument”.
> 
> 
> Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game
> 
> The crossbow has a slight advantage in this area. The string is back in a firing position before game is approaching. How much of an advantage is debatable as several things come into play.
> 
> 1) Being 20 to 25 foot up a tree when attempting to draw a compound bow will lessen a deer’s ability to see you.
> 
> 2) Bows are usually 75 to 90 percent let off so one can draw on a deer much sooner and hold longer to make a killing shot with less worry about the deer seeing you. Mike Beatty drew and held on the new world record non-typical buck for a full 3 minute before making the shot. That bow was a 85% let off. There is a bow on the market that is 99% let off where one can draw the bow as soon as game is spotted and they can wait for however long it takes for that animal to approach the shooting area.
> 
> 3) A number of hunters that use ground blinds are using a blind called Double Bull, “Doghouse”, etc that allows one to draw and shoot through a curtain and never be seen by the animal.
> 
> 4) Most bowhunters learn when and when not to draw on a deer. IE – when it’s head is behind a bush or tree or allowing the deer to walk past them and shoot them quartering away.
> 
> Both pieces of equipment have to be raised into a shooting position. Only the compound has to be drawn. That draw should be straight back and covered somewhat by the bow and bow quiver (if one is on the bow). That is unless the person drawing the bow seriously over-bowed and has to horse it back with great exaggerated movements..
> 
> Regardless of the perceived advantage of “not having to draw back a crossbow” the kill percentages are identical for compounds and crossbows. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.
> 
> 
> Ease of Mastery
> 
> The crossbow would have an edge here. More so if the individual had some previous rifle shooting experience. Irregardless, a “newbie” just starting out with either piece of equipment can be shooting hunting accuracy (all arrows in a 6 inch circle) within two hours IF properly instructed. Maintaining proficiency would also go to the crossbow.
> 
> Ease of mastery is irrelevant to the hunting aspect. Being a master of your equipment has nothing to do with how good a hunter you are. It only has to do with what kind of shot you are with the equipment at hand should that shot present itself.
> 
> There is very little difference in mastering a crossbow and a compound. There is a MAJOR difference in mastering a stickbow as opposed to either a crossbow or a compound. If the difficulty mastering the hunting tool is used a yardstick for archery hunting then the season would have to be limited to traditional only. *


.............


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Title not withstanding willie, that was my first "Homemade" trad harvest. That has been a long term goal of mine. I do however remember my very first trad harvest back in 1974. I used a Ben Pearson glass recurve to harvest a mouse at 5 yards. I grew up hunting small game and deer with trad bows. I hunted with the Pearson as well as a Shakespeare Wonder bow before using a variety of compounds and then in 1988, build my first trad bow. I have harvested with a longbow, recurve, compound. All the legal bows in WI (for the able bodied) I have used a Browning Safari, PSE Sonic, Martin, etc. I even bought a Bowtech Justice back in 2006 and hunted with it for one year to see what it was like to use a modern compound. It was ok and I still have the bow but trad is more my cup of tea. WI has a great variety of legal bows available for bowhunting and for the disabled and elderly, we have crossbows which allows them to shoot deer during the archery deer season. 

You mentioned reading and comprehension and yet, you seemed to have not read or comprehended the list I provided you. I'm sure it was just an oversight so I will provide it again.

1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. Since the majority of WI hunters oppose full intrustion of xguns, should the laws remain unchanged? 

15. What is the max draw weight that crossbows can achieve. What are the limits?


----------



## awshucks

16. Some dummy leaves his dad's Horton cocked all season.


----------



## willie

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Title not withstanding willie, that was my first "Homemade" trad harvest.
> *
> More of "I can change my words to be any meaning that I want"..*
> 
> You mentioned reading and comprehension and yet, you seemed to have not read or comprehended the list I provided you. I'm sure it was just an oversight so I will provide it again.
> 
> *I suppose that maybe, just maybe, someone might venture an answer to youR questionS when you quit dodging their's.
> 
> I've made numerous statements that contradicts some of your statements and you just ignore them. You pick and choose what you will answer and expect others to jump at whatever questison you post.
> 
> The question has been asked more than once......why do YOU oppose crossbows?
> 
> *


AGAIN - Read this very slow so it will sink in - The ONLY thing a crossbow does for a "handicapped and elderly" hunters is allow the string to be mechanically drawn, period.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

*"why do YOU oppose crossbows?"*

While I have answered that question in great detail here and on other forums, if you are willing to answer my questions, I can see my way clear to repost that info. here.


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> .
> 
> 1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season.
> 
> 2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ?
> 
> 3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI?
> 
> 4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?
> 
> 5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI?
> 
> 
> 6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow?
> 
> 7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.
> 
> 8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?
> 
> 9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?
> 
> 10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?
> 
> 11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season?
> 
> 12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"
> 
> 13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?
> 
> 14. Since the majority of WI hunters oppose full intrustion of xguns, should the laws remain unchanged?
> 
> 15. What is the max draw weight that crossbows can achieve. What are the limits?


1. Because of disinformation and people like you who lie to politicians who tend to listen to the squeaky wheels

2. More information and the dissipation of the lies and nonsense that dishonest groups like the PBS spew. 

3. No Idea-not relevant

4. Not relevant-this is bowhunting-the bow my son won 7 national medals with is illegal for bowhunting in ohio because its less than 40 pounds.

5. Those who want to use a crossbow and are prohibited. I should note that banning compounds would -using your defintion-not "exclude anyone" but it limits choice for no rational reason. Do you think a ban on semi auto handguns is OK since people can buy revolvers?> Or are silly bans just that--Silly

6, I deny that is all that important--you make it so because you are engaged in dishonest outcome based arguments. Hunting skills are not impacted by this very small difference

7. No Idea-doesn't matter to me-its stamping out silly restrictions that make no sense that I support

8. Sounds like you are making an argument based on selfish reasons. Ban compounds would mean more deer for you as well

9. NO idea-not relevant to my argument

10. Crossbows and compounds have the same statistically even predicted rate of harvest

11. No-the We have ours screw you is not relevant. It should be made by all citizens not one special interest group--and since your group has been proven liars, that skews the results

12 No

13-Yes, but groups that lie and are dishonest should be discounted

14. Most whites in some states opposed blacks voting. The same mindset motivates the anti crossbow selfish hunters. You prove you are a moron by calling something a xgun.


15. I have no problem with a draw limit. There is not limit that I am aware of but some draws would require very heavy gear to carry




There are no rational arguments to treat crossbows differently than high letoff release fired compound bows


----------



## Redclub

Not all handicaps qualify either only hand ,arm, shoulder. I just applied for Co. (no age help there) ad it cost $500 in medical costs to apply for the permit. Insurance doesn't cover either. Same here in Wi.
Redclub


----------



## INIDHA

Willie;

You posted that it is "easy" to kill a deer with archery(vertical bows) and there is NO difference between vertical bows and crossbows. 

Now how about data that proves your point. I don't want your opinion I want facts produced by a reputable authority. Put up or shut up time for you.

You said Mike Beatty held his bow at full draw for three minutes, tell us how long your crossbow was at full draw on the last buck you shot, or better yet how long on your last turkey hunt? and compare that to the compound.

You and the crossbow industry have a new ploy, try to make archery hunting "easy" and then slide your toy of choice in. If archery (compounds) are so easy, why doesn't the people move to them today? And PLEASE don't give me the women children and older hunters crap, that is a minority of users and you know it.

Your camo keeps changing on the issue.........


----------



## Big Country

INIDHA said:


> Willie;
> 
> You posted that it is "easy" to kill a deer with archery(vertical bows) and there is NO difference between vertical bows and crossbows.
> 
> Now how about data that proves your point. *I don't want your opinion I want facts produced by a reputable authority. Put up or shut up time for you.*
> 
> You said Mike Beatty held his bow at full draw for three minutes, tell us how long your crossbow was at full draw on the last buck you shot, or better yet how long on your last turkey hunt? and compare that to the compound.
> 
> You and the crossbow industry have a new ploy, try to make archery hunting "easy" and then slide your toy of choice in. If archery (compounds) are so easy, why doesn't the people move to them today? And PLEASE don't give me the women children and older hunters crap, that is a minority of users and you know it.
> 
> Your camo keeps changing on the issue.........


Just who would YOU consider to be a reputable authority? Another one of your exclusionary cronies?

What is YOUR reason for attempting to block crossbow inclusion? They are archery equipment, and many large archery orgs agree.

As far as it being time for willie to put up or shut up........that is not your call to make.

And yes, compounds really are easy to kill a deer with.......very easy.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Jim, nice try but lets look at your answers.

1. I asked that emotional replies that have nothing to do why the law is what it is but that is exactly what you gave. *FAIL!*

2. again, *FAIL!*

3. Here you went with an interesting answer. you said "No Idea-not relevant". Oh.......... so sorry *FAIL!*

4. Here again you replied with "Not relevant" and some off topic story about your kid. *FAIL!* 

5. On this one you at least tried when you said "Those who WANT to use a crossbow are prohibited." Yes, "Want" is a great way to put it. I want, I want, I want. That has been the basis and foundation of the pro-intrusion side. Then you off on some off topic tangent about guns. *C+*

6, Nope. Wrong answer........ *FAIL!*

7. Here again, you went with "No Idea-doesn't matter to me" *FAIL!*

8. So you don't have a clue about the WI situation? *Epic FAIL*!

9. I'm seeing a patter with the "NO idea-not relevant" answer. *FAIL!*

10. You did not answer the question. *FAIL!* :nono:

11. I asked "Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season?" your answer is, "No" and then you started calling names. There was no right or wrong answer here, I only hoped to understand if you think the hunting residents of WI should make the call and you don't think that is a good idea.

12. That's what I thought and yet you seem to think that you are qualified to speak for WI. *FAIL!*

13. This one was interesting. You answered "NO" to essentially the same question in number 11 and now you say "Yes". Then you when back to the name calling. :doh:

14. Now this was interesting and a therapist might want to explore this one further since you went with a racist theme about black people voting. (Not sure how the hell you got there) *Epic Fail!* :focus:

15. You replied with "I have no problem with a draw limit." you get an A

OK, lets add this up and grade your paper. 

*F+ * :thumbs_do

Willie, it's your turn. Learn from Jims failings. It's clear this guy rides the short bus. :crazy:


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Jim, nice try but lets look at your answers.
> 
> 1. I asked that emotional replies that have nothing to do why the law is what it is but that is exactly what you gave. *FAIL!*
> 
> 2. again, *FAIL!*
> 
> 3. Here you went with an interesting answer. you said "No Idea-not relevant". Oh.......... so sorry *FAIL!*
> 
> 4. Here again you replied with "Not relevant" and some off topic story about your kid. *FAIL!*
> 
> 5. On this one you at least tried when you said "Those who WANT to use a crossbow are prohibited." Yes, "Want" is a great way to put it. I want, I want, I want. That has been the basis and foundation of the pro-intrusion side. Then you off on some off topic tangent about guns. *C+*
> 
> 6, Nope. Wrong answer........ *FAIL!*
> 
> 7. Here again, you went with "No Idea-doesn't matter to me" *FAIL!*
> 
> 8. So you don't have a clue about the WI situation? *Epic FAIL*!
> 
> 9. I'm seeing a patter with the "NO idea-not relevant" answer. *FAIL!*
> 
> 10. You did not answer the question. *FAIL!* :nono:
> 
> 11. I asked "Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season?" your answer is, "No" and then you started calling names. There was no right or wrong answer here, I only hoped to understand if you think the hunting residents of WI should make the call and you don't think that is a good idea.
> 
> 12. That's what I thought and yet you seem to think that you are qualified to speak for WI. *FAIL!*
> 
> 13. This one was interesting. You answered "NO" to essentially the same question in number 11 and now you say "Yes". Then you when back to the name calling. :doh:
> 
> 14. Now this was interesting and a therapist might want to explore this one further since you went with a racist theme about black people voting. (Not sure how the hell you got there) *Epic Fail!* :focus:
> 
> 15. You replied with "I have no problem with a draw limit." you get an A
> 
> OK, lets add this up and grade your paper.
> 
> *F+ * :thumbs_do
> 
> Willie, it's your turn. Learn from Jims failings. It's clear this guy rides the short bus. :crazy:



your silly rants are idiotic


its like the toilet cleaner grading the job performance of the P&G CEO


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

F+ with delusions of grandeur. Your an interesting case study. That is for sure. I guess I'm most disappointed simply because it's clear you didn't even try. If (in your head) your the best guy for this job, there is nothing to worry about. 

Lets hope Willie can represent the full intrusion side better than you when he gives it a go.


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> Willie;
> 
> You posted that it is "easy" to kill a deer with archery(vertical bows) and there is NO difference between vertical bows and crossbows.
> 
> Now how about data that proves your point. I don't want your opinion I want facts produced by a reputable authority. Put up or shut up time for you.
> 
> *Yep... In EVERY state that has crossbows and compounds hunting AT THE SAME TIME they are statistically dead even in percent success rate. Yes, I can go get it... but you have a numerous unanswered questions on here. I'm supposed to jump and get data or "put up or shut up" as you call it, but you don't have to answer any questions?*
> 
> You said Mike Beatty held his bow at full draw for three minutes, tell us how long your crossbow was at full draw on the last buck you shot, or better yet how long on your last turkey hunt? and compare that to the compound.
> 
> *Doesn't really matter how long does it? Both draws were outside the view of the game being pursued. That is the point isn't it? You all say that crossbowers do not "have to draw in the presence of game" and each and every item I have listed in the "Drawing/Shooting in the Presence of Game" eliminates the "draw in the presence of game" for vetrical bowhunters.
> 
> Because of the small properties I turkey hunt on I use a pop up ground blind. One can do an Irish jig inside of them with a gobbler standing 15 yards away and they will never see you.*
> 
> You and the crossbow industry have a new ploy, try to make archery hunting "easy" and then slide your toy of choice in. If archery (compounds) are so easy, why doesn't the people move to them today? And PLEASE don't give me the women children and older hunters crap, that is a minority of users and you know it.
> 
> *People HAVE moved to them, Joe. Would you want to venture a guess as to how many bowhunters there would be in this country if it was still the "stick and string"? Compounds made bowhunting what it is today. If it was not for Allen, Jennings, and Shepley pushing compounds as legal archery hunting tools bowhunters would be in an even smaller minority than they are today. No, there is no "data" to prove that, just plain old common sense.
> 
> Crossbows will help bowhunting just like the compounds did. They will get more people into the woods in the form of kids, women, elderly, physically challenged and yes, even some gun hunters. They are PROVEN recruitment and hunter retainment tools.
> 
> Before you jump on the gun hunters, please remember that 80% of all bowhunters started out as gun hunters.*
> 
> Your camo keeps changing on the issue.........
> 
> *No change and nothing “new”. We’ve discussed before the difficulties and ease of all archery equipment MANY, MANY TIMES..
> 
> BTW - I wear Predator Fall Brown all for deer hunting. It eliminates the “human shaped blob”.*


.....


----------



## willie

Jim C said:


> your silly rants are idiotic
> 
> 
> its like the toilet cleaner grading the job performance of the P&G CEO


Jim,

Ah, you should have known that no answers that you could give would be good enough for Rancid.

He is like the liberal history revisionist professors in college. Even though you give the rght answers to the questions it is not the answer that they want to fit their agendas..

Just the fact that the anti-crossbow house of cards will fall (just like it does in more and more states evey year) in WI and IN some day is good enough for me.

We are a patient lot... must be the bowhunter in us.


----------



## willie

> Originally Posted by INIDHA
> Willie;
> 
> You posted that it is "easy" to kill a deer with archery(vertical bows) and there is NO difference between vertical bows and crossbows.
> 
> Now how about data that proves your point. I don't want your opinion I want facts produced by a reputable authority. Put up or shut up time for you.
> 
> You said Mike Beatty held his bow at full draw for three minutes, tell us how long your crossbow was at full draw on the last buck you shot, or better yet how long on your last turkey hunt? and compare that to the compound.
> 
> You and the crossbow industry have a new ploy, try to make archery hunting "easy" and then slide your toy of choice in. If archery (compounds) are so easy, why doesn't the people move to them today? And PLEASE don't give me the women children and older hunters crap, that is a minority of users and you know it.
> 
> Your camo keeps changing on the issue.........





Big Country said:


> Just who would YOU consider to be a reputable authority? Another one of your exclusionary cronies?
> 
> *LOL... any anti-crossbower worth his salt already knows the answer to his questions. He is wanting to do the "spin" on it..They all get their marching orders from the NABC. I'm sure that the NABC knows that the kill rate is about the same so they say " Fall back on crossbows don't have to be drawn in the presence of game" tact. *
> 
> What is YOUR reason for attempting to block crossbow inclusion? They are archery equipment, and many large archery orgs agree.
> 
> *Let me be as clear as I can on this. He HATES crossbows. Now, why he HATES crossbows is a good question. I'm sure that he will come up with teh old ploy of "manufacturers trying to ram it down our throats". That is ancient history and one that he continues to use to keep Indiana deer hunters from having another choice in archey hunting gear. One that they each can accept or reject. Since Indiana's deer hunting ground is 93% private NO ONE will even have to allow crossbows on their ground IF they dont want to.
> 
> I'm sure that INIDHA wont allow them in his ground just like he says he wont allow the youth to take a buck during the youth hunt weekend*
> 
> As far as it being time for willie to put up or shut up........that is not your call to make.
> 
> *Kind of sounds like the Obama administration trying to silence the truth from the conservative media.*
> 
> And yes, compounds really are easy to kill a deer with.......very easy.
> 
> *....and it is getting easier every year.
> 
> Wonder why INIDHA switched over to a compound for deer hunting?*


..........


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

"No Idea-doesn't matter to me" 

Does not really count as an answer. I don't think anybody will count those as answers. 

I am happy to repost the reasons why I opposes crossbows in the WI archery deer season. Right after I read Willie's answers that Jim failed at. I'm hoping at least one of the pro-intrusion crowd is up to it.


----------



## WIbowster

Rancid, you might want to tell Matt he is shooting the wrong bow. Check out this link at utube . . .

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgnDj3DQdVc

Explain to him why the crossbow would be a better fit for him.

Based on this . . .the compound should be the weapon of choice for the handicapped. 

What kind of success rate has your Dad had with his crossbow? Who gets the most deer, you or him?


----------



## WIbowster

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Willie says:
> 
> Good one. Im guessing you may have actually convinced yourself of this. The rest of us know better......... How? Because the handicapped and elderly are not told they must use the compound. They are allowed to use a crossbow. Why? Well it sure as he'll isn't because it is equivilant to the compound for ease of use. Willie, you of all people should know this. Why is it you use a crossbow? If it is equivilant to a compound, then why not use a compound? Don't you just hate it when your own words expose you?
> 
> something tells me that you desperately want the stigma of "handicaped" crossbow user removed for personal reasons.


Rancid . . .they use a crossbow because they enjoy BOWHUNTING. Otherwise, they would just wait until gun season. There is nothing special about the crossbow when it comes to killing a deer. You know that, tis why you have never been able to kill a deer with a crossbow. It's also the reason the success rates are the same for compound vs. crossbow.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Welcome new archerytalk member (just joined today) Which crossbow forum did you just come from? 

There are a long list of questions on the table and as a WI resident and pro-crossbow guy, you will have no problems answering them. When you have done so, we will talk. Welcome to archerytalk.


----------



## WIbowster

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Welcome new archerytalk member (just joined today) Which crossbow forum did you just come from?
> 
> There are a long list of questions on the table and as a WI resident and pro-crossbow guy, you will have no problems answering them. When you have done so, we will talk. Welcome to archerytalk.


You are good at asking questions, but, not so good at answering them? Figures.


----------



## Rancid Crabtree

Being your so new. Here they are. Let me know when you have the cajones to provide the answers. Until then, this is not your xbow forum my friend. You will be expected to do something besides call names. I suspect this will be a real challenge for you. 

1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. 

2. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that now makes them a good idea for WI now ? 

3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? 

4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery? 

5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? 


6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? 

7. How many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were reason enough to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study.

8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 18 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer in the archery deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?

9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?

10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?

11. Do you think the hunters of WI should decide if crossbows are legal in the WI archery deer season? 

12. Do you know what the WI Conservation Congress is"

13. Do you think this is a states rights issue for each state to decide for itself?

14. Since the majority of WI hunters oppose full intrustion of xguns, should the laws remain unchanged? 

15. What is the max draw weight that crossbows can achieve. What are the limits?


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## Big Country

Funny how when asked a question, the standard operating procedure is to ask a handful in return instead of answering the original question......

BTW, you have a PM RC.


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## Rancid Crabtree

The new player at the table does not call the game. After watching a few hands he asks to play in. 

P.S. I have several PM's Some I read, some I pass. Some I just delete.


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## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> The new player at the table does not call the game. After watching a few hands he asks to play in.
> 
> P.S. I have several PM's Some I read, some I pass. Some I just delete.


Allow me to spell it out for you right here then.......

We are not playing cards at your camp. You do not make the rules.

As far as PM`s.......feel free to not read the friendly advise I sent you.(and we both know it is my PM that caused to you make your latest witty remark.)

Just do not be surprised at the consequences if you do decide to ignore that friendly advise.

You can debate....
You can be borderline rude in said debate....
You can NOT violate at policy in said debate......


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## Rancid Crabtree

Then we can assume this applies equally? Glad to hear it.


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## WIbowster

Rancid . . .are you referring to me? Calling names? I don't think so.

I'm sorry, I didn't know this was your forum and I just didn't know the "answer the multiple question" rule.

Sure, I could waste my time answering them, but, I do not see any that pertain to the current debate.

Laws are written for a purpose. Rules are also written for a purpose. Over time, those purposes change. The people that made them into law die. New people take over with new ideas and a new purpose. 

I hate to disappoint you, but, I am not a crossbow advocate. I am a hunter advocate. I do not own a crossbow, but, I have a brother that does. I have experienced nothing that makes me think the crossbow is going to harm the resource. Matter of fact, I typically take more deer every year than my brother.

I too make all the arrows . . .and maintain his weapon for him. He uses the crossbow so he can still enjoy archery . . .and he does.

Why are you against that?


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## Rancid Crabtree

Big Country said:


> Allow me to spell it out for you right here then.......
> 
> We are not playing cards at your camp. You do not make the rules.
> 
> As far as PM`s.......feel free to not read the friendly advise I sent you.(and we both know it is my PM that caused to you make your latest witty remark.)
> 
> Just do not be surprised at the consequences if you do decide to ignore that friendly advise.
> 
> You can debate....
> You can be borderline rude in said debate....
> You can NOT violate at policy in said debate......



Good stuff Big Country. I should expect then that regardles of a person's position on crossbows, that "The rules" will apply. I will use as a standard bearer, the comments from our own Jim C. Below are quotes from our good friend Jim C. So long as I use that sort or language and words, I should be all good. Read through them and let me know.


"you are a pompous donkey."

"you do not have the intelligence to argue rationally"

"you are as ignorant of me and how I see this issue as you are of archery"

"your rants about xbows being too easy are just stupid "

"You don't have the intelligence to play such a game" 

"Losers don't want to share "their woods" with anyone else."

"anti crossbow types as just ignorant yahoos" 

"Rancid apparently has serious self esteem issues and an ego problem "

"I have studied the mental issues surrounding the anti crossbow crowd for years and ego and greed are the only two motivations."

"He is arrogant and cowardly." 

"He's proven himself to be a dishonest and evasive troll" 

"Lying is about all people like Rancid Crossbow hater has."

"usually mental illness-seriously mental illness" 

"You are being immature"

"You obviously are clueless"

"some gutless coward who is afraid to fill out his or her or its profile"

"I have found that those who whine about what type of bows others use generally are"

"1) people with serious self esteem issues bordering on being including in the DSM-IV

2) pss poor hunters

3) greedy 

4) clueless

5) people who need to get a life "

"stop spewing crap"

"your moronic anti xbow rants "

"You obviously don't read very well. "

"and when clowns claim that the hardest part of bowhunting is pulling back a bow I just laugh at how stupid some are "


Within this same thread, you posted this for me Big Country::




> "Does it make you feel taller when you use unflattering terms and attempt to kick your fellow sportsmen?"


yet I never saw you post such a thing to Jim C. Since rules are important, are the rules the same for both sides of the crossbow issue? 

I'm glad to know which words and comments are acceptable here as defined by Jim.


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## Big Country

Rancid, you are correct in assuming that personal stance on the subject has no bearing on whether rules get enforced or not.

The beauty of PM`s is that they are.......private.

Jim is just as guilty as you for the name calling, but Jim did not come on here and state that he deletes certain PM`s 2 minutes after he received one.

Now, lets ALL please continue this debate within the forum rules so I can go back to discussing the topic, and not the rulebook.:darkbeer:


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## Rancid Crabtree

Big Country said:


> The beauty of PM`s is that they are.......private.
> 
> Jim is just as guilty as you for the name calling, but Jim did not come on here and state that he deletes certain PM`s 2 minutes after he received one.
> 
> Now, lets ALL please continue this debate within the forum rules so I can go back to discussing the topic, and not the rulebook.:darkbeer:


nobody but you is bringing up PMs. I only read the ones I care to. That is the REAL beauty of PMs.

As far as getting back to the topic (crossbows and WI) most of the pro intrusions guys stopped talking about that long ago. Now it's just a series of personal attacks. The question I laid address crossbows and WI but it's clear most don't want to talk about the topic and can't bring themselves to reply to the questions. Pity too.


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## Big Country

Rancid Crabtree said:


> nobody but you is bringing up PMs. I only read the ones I care to. That is the REAL beauty of PMs.
> 
> As far as getting back to the topic (crossbows and WI) most of the pro intrusions guys stopped talking about that long ago. Now it's just a series of personal attacks. The question I laid address crossbows and WI but it's clear most don't want to talk about the topic and can't bring themselves to reply to the questions. Pity too.


RC, you are not real good at remaining on topic for starters.

You refuse to answer questions.....

You have your anti-crossbow handbook handy for negative remarks at all times......crossbow "intrusion" is lame, and shows a lack of solid data on the users part.

And yes, you DID bring up PM`s.......right after you received one from me. Your post is still there for us to see.

You accuse others of refusing to reply to questions? That is similar to Tiger Woods giving us a lecture on marital fidelity.:chortle:


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## Jim C

willie said:


> Jim,
> 
> Ah, you should have known that no answers that you could give would be good enough for Rancid.
> 
> He is like the liberal history revisionist professors in college. Even though you give the rght answers to the questions it is not the answer that they want to fit their agendas..
> 
> Just the fact that the anti-crossbow house of cards will fall (just like it does in more and more states evey year) in WI and IN some day is good enough for me.
> 
> We are a patient lot... must be the bowhunter in us.


I have been dealing with these turkeys for 35 years. I know he wasn't going to have the stones to answer my question after I answered his repetitive stupidity


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> Good stuff Big Country. I should expect then that regardles of a person's position on crossbows, that "The rules" will apply. I will use as a standard bearer, the comments from our own Jim C. Below are quotes from our good friend Jim C. So long as I use that sort or language and words, I should be all good. Read through them and let me know.
> 
> 
> "you are a pompous donkey."
> 
> "you do not have the intelligence to argue rationally"
> 
> "you are as ignorant of me and how I see this issue as you are of archery"
> 
> "your rants about xbows being too easy are just stupid "
> 
> "You don't have the intelligence to play such a game"
> 
> "Losers don't want to share "their woods" with anyone else."
> 
> "anti crossbow types as just ignorant yahoos"
> 
> "Rancid apparently has serious self esteem issues and an ego problem "
> 
> "I have studied the mental issues surrounding the anti crossbow crowd for years and ego and greed are the only two motivations."
> 
> "He is arrogant and cowardly."
> 
> "He's proven himself to be a dishonest and evasive troll"
> 
> "Lying is about all people like Rancid Crossbow hater has."
> 
> "usually mental illness-seriously mental illness"
> 
> "You are being immature"
> 
> "You obviously are clueless"
> 
> "some gutless coward who is afraid to fill out his or her or its profile"
> 
> "I have found that those who whine about what type of bows others use generally are"
> 
> "1) people with serious self esteem issues bordering on being including in the DSM-IV
> 
> 2) pss poor hunters
> 
> 3) greedy
> 
> 4) clueless
> 
> 5) people who need to get a life "
> 
> "stop spewing crap"
> 
> "your moronic anti xbow rants "
> 
> "You obviously don't read very well. "
> 
> "and when clowns claim that the hardest part of bowhunting is pulling back a bow I just laugh at how stupid some are "
> 
> 
> Within this same thread, you posted this for me Big Country::
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yet I never saw you post such a thing to Jim C. Since rules are important, are the rules the same for both sides of the crossbow issue?
> 
> I'm glad to know which words and comments are acceptable here as defined by Jim.


I will happily call you a coward again because you are. People like you are the pits-worse than anti hunters. The PBS is a most odious group-I have destroyed them so badly they pulled most of their anti xbow crap from their website after their marlow report was proven to be based on complete lies

Those twits claimed that a novice with a crossbow could outshoot professional or experienced or expert (they changed the terms a few times) Compound archers

Tell me why the world champion's national record (Shooting a 3000 dollar target crossbow) at the NFAA is 600/115X and why that wouldn't even win the bowhunter freestyle amateur division if a NOVICE WITH A HUNTING CROSSBOW can outshoot pro compound archers according to the PBS?


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## Rancid Crabtree

And here I thought we were talking about how full inclusion of crossbows are not and have not ever been supported by the majority of WI hunters.


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## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> And here I thought we were talking about how full inclusion of crossbows are not and have not ever been supported by the majority of WI hunters.


pretty selfish lot you have there

I bet they can rationalize their greed as well as you can

maybe when the crossbows take over they ought to push for rigorous proficiency tests

that would kill off about 90% of the trads


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## Rancid Crabtree

Name calling? Wow! I never saw that coming.


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## Jim C

Since I answered your silly 15 questions are you gonna answer mine

How are you objectively harmed by full inclusion of crossbows into the compound bow season?


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## INIDHA

From Willies site..........LOL

Study: Crossbow Users Aren’t NewbiesMay 06, 2010

Beyond the Article
This excerpt is from the upcoming August 2010 issue of Deer & Deer Hunting. Click here to subscribe to Deer & Deer Hunting magazine.

A common belief among traditional bow-hunters is that the majority of crossbow hunters are gun-hunters with no previous bow-hunting experience. That is not true, according to a 2009 survey of new crossbow hunters.

Of the 1,637 hunters surveyed, more than 72 percent said they had previously hunted with compound bows, and almost 18 percent said they had hunted with recurves. 

The survey also indicated that 75 percent also hunted with rifles, while 74 percent said they hunted with shotguns. More than 64 percent hunted with muzzleloaders, and 29 percent hunted with handguns. 

Only 1 percent of those surveyed said they had no prior hunting experience. Based off of those results, the survey, conducted by TenPoint Technologies, indicates that a majority of crossbow hunters are multi-season deer hunters. 

The soon-to-be-released August issue of Deer & Deer Hunting will include an exclusive article on crossbow tactics for rut-hunters. 

Written by seasoned whitetail hunter John Trout Jr., the article also explores the arguments for and against crossbow usage during regular archery seasons. The August issue hits newsstands June 15th, but it begins mailing to subscribers on June 1st.


Only 1% are new hunters, where are the women and kids?

74% shotgun hunters

72% compound shooters

75% rifle shooters

64% muzzleloaders

29% handguns

18% traditional archery

as we can all see it is the gun hunter who is the person who moves, 

And Willie, just who and where does John Trout live? TenPoint crossbow, Willie and now John Trout........hmmmmm Willie do you know John? And how much info did you feed him for the article?


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## Big Country

INIDHA, instead of continuing down this path of stalking one member, why not openly state your case for crossbow exclusion?

Delving into hypothetical situations and/or associations will not further your cause.........only real data and facts can do that. Well, disinformation can work, but only for a short time.


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## Jim C

Big Country said:


> INIDHA, instead of continuing down this path of stalking one member, why not openly state your case for crossbow exclusion?
> 
> Delving into hypothetical situations and/or associations will not further your cause.........only real data and facts can do that. Well, disinformation can work, but only for a short time.


crossbow haters are no different than gun banners--they never have the stones to post their true reasons


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## INIDHA

It is very simple, the crossbow is a gun without powder. It has a shoulder stock, a trigger and safety. It does not require any movement to draw in the presence of game. Just spot the game and hold the scope on it until it moves into range.

You folks want to proclaim vertical archery is easy, yet you hide behind the ease of a crossbow. You claim that it promotes women and kids yet the article says less than 1%(gee Willie will hate that fact) and now you want to cover tracks when I know his association with the manufatcure as well as the writer of the article.

Here is my REAL beef, when an individual who does not live in a state tries to influence policy there. That is Willie!

Guess you could put me in purgatory like you did another member because he would not debate you .....


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## willie

INIDHA said:


> From Willies site..........LOL
> 
> *Glad that you are getting some good information from my site.. :wink: *
> 
> Study: Crossbow Users Aren’t Newbies
> 
> *Not sure one could really call this a “study”. More like a survey of present crossbow hunters. Surveys are really not considered "studies".*
> 
> May 06, 2010
> 
> Beyond the Article
> 
> This excerpt is from the upcoming August 2010 issue of Deer & Deer Hunting. Click here to subscribe to Deer & Deer Hunting magazine.
> 
> A common belief among traditional bow-hunters is that the majority of crossbow hunters are gun-hunters with no previous bow-hunting experience. That is not true, according to a 2009 survey of new crossbow hunters.
> 
> Of the 1,637 hunters surveyed, more than 72 percent said they had previously hunted with compound bows, and almost 18 percent said they had hunted with recurves.
> 
> *WOW! Sure sounds like a LOT of bowhunter retainment to me. I wonder how many of that 72% had quit bowhunting before the crossbow was legalized in their state?*
> 
> The survey also indicated that 75 percent also hunted with rifles, while 74 percent said they hunted with shotguns. More than 64 percent hunted with muzzleloaders, and 29 percent hunted with handguns.
> 
> *Yes, “multi seasons" hunters just like the large percentage of shotgun hunters in Indiana that also hunt with archery equipment. Did you not post that?*
> 
> Only 1 percent of those surveyed said they had no prior hunting experience. Based off of those results, the survey, conducted by TenPoint Technologies, indicates that a majority of crossbow hunters are multi-season deer hunters.
> 
> The soon-to-be-released August issue of Deer & Deer Hunting will include an exclusive article on crossbow tactics for rut-hunters.
> 
> Written by seasoned whitetail hunter John Trout Jr., the article also explores the arguments for and against crossbow usage during regular archery seasons. The August issue hits newsstands June 15th, but it begins mailing to subscribers on June 1st.
> 
> 
> Only 1% are new hunters, where are the women and kids?
> 
> *Considering that we are adding hundreds of thousands of crossbow hunters every year that 1% adds up pretty quick. Just multiply any large number by 1% and see what you get..
> 
> BUT - Who is to say that a percentage of the ones that had hunted before were not “women and kids”? They could very well be some of the “gun hunters”, that you seem so desperate to stop from hunting in the archery season, that decided to take up archery hunting now that they can shoot and hunt with an adequate archery hunting tool.
> 
> I don’t think I recall seeing any reference to age or sex in any of those percentages, did you?*
> 
> 74% shotgun hunters
> 
> 72% compound shooters
> 
> 75% rifle shooters
> 
> 64% muzzleloaders
> 
> 29% handguns
> 
> 18% traditional archery
> 
> as we can all see it is the gun hunter who is the person who moves,
> 
> *Uh, no. Looks like they all “moved”. Even the bowhunters who, unlike you, likes another choice in archery hunting gear.. BTW - each one of those probably hunted with more than one hunting tool so those percentages can be skewed..*
> 
> And Willie, just who and where does John Trout live?
> 
> *John lives in Southern Illinois with his wife Vicki.*
> 
> TenPoint crossbow, Willie and now John Trout........hmmmmm Willie do you know John?
> 
> *Absolutely. I've known John for over 40 years. I've hunted with John in KY, IN, Colorado, Ontario, and PA. I've been on many a blood trail with John.
> 
> He is a very close friend*.
> 
> And how much info did you feed him for the article?
> 
> *Not a thing. Last time I talked to John was back in deer season, when he brought his Illinois buck over to Boonville to have it mounted. Even the TenPoint "survey" is news to me.
> 
> Tell you what.. Contact John and ask him where he researched his article from.
> 
> I’m kind of disappointed John did not interview me.* :wink:
> 
> http://troutswildoutdoors.com/
> 
> *BTW - John shoots and hunts with an Excalibur, not a TenPoint..John has bad shoulders too and in October he turned 62 which allows him to hunt in Illinois with a crossbow.
> 
> John is a hunter. He could kill a deer with a big rock if he had to.*



...........


----------



## Big Country

INIDHA said:


> It is very simple, the crossbow is a gun without powder. It has a shoulder stock, a trigger and safety. It does not require any movement to draw in the presence of game. Just spot the game and hold the scope on it until it moves into range.
> 
> You folks want to proclaim vertical archery is easy, yet you hide behind the ease of a crossbow. You claim that it promotes women and kids yet the article says less than 1%(gee Willie will hate that fact) and now you want to cover tracks when I know his association with the manufatcure as well as the writer of the article.
> 
> Here is my REAL beef, when an individual who does not live in a state tries to influence policy there. That is Willie!
> 
> Guess you could put me in purgatory like you did another member because he would not debate you .....


Let us get one thing straight immediately.....I did NOT put your buddy anywhere. And technically, he put himself there.

And yes, I have stated that successfully hunting with a compound is easy......and I have backed up that claim a lot of times. I do not hide behind a crossbow, I have never hunted with one.

I do not want to cover anything, I want to EXPOSE things, and people.

The ONLY have decent argument anti crossbow folks have is the drawing in the presence of game..........EVERY aspect of the hunt prior to that is identical. 

Odor control
Stand placement
Getting into "archery" range


Performance levels of crossbows and compounds are nearly identical. They both utilize energy stored in limbs to propel an arrow.

The REAL performance gap is between compounds and traditional bows.

That is where the real jump is regarding ease of use, or lack thereof as well.


----------



## Jim C

INIDHA said:


> It is very simple, the crossbow is a gun without powder. It has a shoulder stock, a trigger and safety. It does not require any movement to draw in the presence of game. Just spot the game and hold the scope on it until it moves into range.
> 
> You folks want to proclaim vertical archery is easy, yet you hide behind the ease of a crossbow. You claim that it promotes women and kids yet the article says less than 1%(gee Willie will hate that fact) and now you want to cover tracks when I know his association with the manufatcure as well as the writer of the article.
> 
> Here is my REAL beef, when an individual who does not live in a state tries to influence policy there. That is Willie!
> 
> Guess you could put me in purgatory like you did another member because he would not debate you .....


as one of the more senior posters I have read alot of completely moronic things on this board. As probably the most senior xbow archer on this board (Unless Robin Allen starts posting again) I have seen some really idiotic psychobabbling from the xbow haters.


But this claim of yours is beyond stupid. It brands you as completely unqualified to engage in any rational discussion. You obviously know nothing of archery and you are a disgrace to bowhunting.


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## Rancid Crabtree

Jim C said:


> Since I answered your silly 15 questions are you gonna answer mine
> 
> How are you objectively harmed by full inclusion of crossbows into the compound bow season?


writing "I don't know and I don't care is hardly answering. As you can see, I am not interested. in you or your opinions. Willie did however ask a very Good question when he asked why I Personally am opposed to crossbows. I expect that he answers the questions I prepared for him, that I would give him a list of reasons. You Jim on the other hand have proven to be a joke. You are unable to do anything but name call which has provenyou are unarmed in the arena of ideas and are just embarassing yourself. If you like you can tell everybody you broke up with me but I grow tired of you.

I shall enjoy your future of trying desperately to get my attention as you run through your list of name calling.


----------



## willie

INIDHA said:


> It is very simple, the crossbow is a gun without powder. It has a shoulder stock, a trigger and safety. It does not require any movement to draw in the presence of game. Just spot the game and hold the scope on it until it moves into range.
> 
> *Horse pucky..It sure is not much easier than that compound bow that you are shooting. Have you went to a hand held release yet?*
> 
> You folks want to proclaim vertical archery is easy, yet you hide behind the ease of a crossbow. You claim that it promotes women and kids yet the article says less than 1%(gee Willie will hate that fact)
> 
> *See my other post..*
> 
> and now you want to cover tracks when I know his association with the manufatcure as well as the writer of the article.
> 
> *Now this is the second time on here that you have accused me of my "association with a manufacturer". I asked you to put up proof of your accusation and you cant. It is really getting old that you accuse me of that and offer absolutely NO PROOF of that statement.
> 
> Now as you said - put up or shut up.
> 
> Yes, I know John Trout Jr. well, Big deal. You know CJ Winand well and he writes pro-crossbow articles, What does that make you?*
> 
> Here is my REAL beef, when an individual who does not live in a state tries to influence policy there. That is Willie!
> 
> *Did you have that same beef with Scarlet Dew when he solicited out of state bowhunters to move our Indiana gun seasons? We've been through this before. Crossbow advocates ask for help in their state and I give them information. That is it. I do not contact those state's DNRs.
> 
> Where are you getting your anti-crossbow rhethoric from? The NABC? Pope and Young feeding you anything? How about the PBS? Are they not out of state? Did you not give Rancid some "information" against crossbows?
> 
> It's OK for you guys and these national organizations to share anti-crossbow junk, but shame on an individual named wille that shares with other crossbowers.
> 
> You’re a hypocrite …*
> 
> 
> .


..........


----------



## Jim C

Rancid Crabtree said:


> writing "I don't know and I don't care is hardly answering. As you can see, I am not interested. in you or your opinions. Willie did however ask a very Good question when he asked why I Personally am opposed to crossbows. I expect that he answers the questions I prepared for him, that I would give him a list of reasons. You Jim on the other hand have proven to be a joke. You are unable to do anything but name call which has provenyou are unarmed in the arena of ideas and are just embarassing yourself. If you like you can tell everybody you broke up with me but I grow tired of you.
> 
> I shall enjoy your future of trying desperately to get my attention as you run through your list of name calling.


You really are a pompous jerk. I poop stuff smarter than you

I knew you weren't man enough to live up to a promise. Not only are you clueless you are dishonest

But thanks for your many posts. I will forward them to the proper people for good use.


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## Big Country

OK, time for the good folks from WI to start a new thread if they want to discuss it here......

This one has gone down the wrong road.......


----------

