# Please help w/Helim Paper Tune Problem- High Left Tear using Ultrarest HDX



## BestNThDez (Sep 30, 2009)

First my setup:
Brand new right handed Mathews Helim 30” 70lb. bow, idler wheel lean at about 1/8” to outside of string at nock point at full poundage, string in center of cam timing window at full poundage, D-Loop, Axion 7.5 GLZ Gridlock Stabilizer, G5 ¼” Mega Peep Sight, Spot-Hog 7 Deadly Pins with Wrap, QAD UltraRest HDX drop away rest, bow set to 60 lb. draw, shooting Carbon Express Maxima 3D Select 350’s (weighing 385 grains with 100 gr. bullet tip, using the Bohning 2” vane, shooting 385 FPS), using a Tru-Ball Hand Release.
Right now, the only way I can get the bow to shoot decent bullet holes through paper, at 3 yards, is if the bottom of the arrow is in line with the top of the Berger hole AND the nocking point is 3/16” BELOW that (basically, arrow is sitting with a huge uphill slope towards the point). My center shot is also WAY IN/CLOSE to the riser at 8/16”. 
Now I understand that paper tuning is just one way to get in the ball park, then most fine/micro tune with other methods, but this is way out of whack. My arrow is totally sitting uphill while in the rest. Also, at rest, the point of my arrow is about 1” to the right/inside of the string while looking from the back of the bow with the string lined up/centered on the riser/limbs.
When I first shot through paper at the typical 11/16” to 13/16” centershot, and 1/8” to 1/4” nock high, I was getting a terribly big nock/tail high tear at about 1 ½”, with about a 1/2'” tail left tear.
My QAD Ultrarest HDX is attached to the downward bus cable at about a ½” below the bottom of the handle, using the football clamp assembly. It has been timed/setup correctly also. I’ve tried both the stock and the TL-1 rest fork, with no change. I checked for fletching contact with some foot powder spray and it looks good. I’m shooting with the cock vane at the 9 O’clock position. I’m a fairly advanced archer (although not advanced enough to figure this out), and am quite certain that it’s now a bow torque/grip issue either.
I’m at a loss. Any help would be appreciated to help me figure out why I have to be so out of accepted specs to get a decent paper tune. I would feel a lot better if I could get it paper tuned within the most common accepted parameters before I start trying to microtune. 
Thanks for any suggestions.


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## BestNThDez (Sep 30, 2009)

I put my specs back to 12/16" centershot, 1/8" high nock point. I thenadded two twists to the left yoke of the cable (at the suggestion of a friend), to bring the Idle Wheel lean in from 1/8" to the outside of the string at the nock point, to about 1/16" past/into the diameter of the string. I measure this by laying a straight carbon arrow along the outside of the Idler Wheel, with the point ending at the nock point. So now the inside edge of the arrow (the edge that is touching the Idler Wheel) is about 1/16" inside the closest edge of the string (so maybe about halfway through the entire diameter of the string). After I did all of this, I reshot throuh paper at 3 yards, and the left tear seems to be gone/minimal. But, the 1" nock high tear is still there. I'm still wondering what else to try. Any ideas?


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## BestNThDez (Sep 30, 2009)

On a side note, If I recall correctly, back in the day with the LX and Switchback bows, the Idler Wheel lean was set at point/tip of the arrow to center of the string, not 1/8" to the side??? 
I also re-timed the timing cord exactly as they told me on the phone today at QAD. I guess I can check again to see if I have any fletching contact with some foot powder.


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## nomad11 (Apr 14, 2006)

I defer to those who have current software, etc., but a carbon express 350, 30" D/L, at 385fps feels way to weak arrow wise. Could explain why you need to cant your idler wheel as you've done (as I read it), why your rest is towards the riser, and your nock point below center. If I'm right, then your are fighting...and fighting HARD, a very poorly spined arrow for your set up. Kinda like force a square peg into a round hole. There are a lot of other variables (torque) but.....my $0.02 are starting here for now.


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## BestNThDez (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks for the input! I would love to have someone run the numbers through "software"??? I don't have any software to know the difference. I would love to hear that my arrows are the problem, if that is the case. I will say that I've shot these arrows (these type and spine) for my last 2 bows at the same draw weight, although I'd always shoot them at 380 fps, instead of 285. Let's hear from somebody that can shed some light.


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## flag (Oct 4, 2009)

Your arrows sound fine.sounds like you are getting some contact from the rest.put you center shot at 11/16 and arrow running through the center of the bergur hole and go from there and try to shoot a bare shaft and see what kind of tear you get


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## BestNThDez (Sep 30, 2009)

Ok. I'm guessing at that distance, the vanes aren't doing much anyways right? So, if i'm getting fletching contact, then with a bare shaft, it should have a different paper tear?


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## nomad11 (Apr 14, 2006)

Sry..for right or wrong.... I standby my earlier post except that if I think things are weak then your arrow nock should be above level or center. If there are still issue then I'd look towads nock pinch or arrow contact. In the end, idler wheel, rest orientation and nock placement can tell you much about spine..and/or torque.


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## McCumber12 (Jun 22, 2012)

well 

Thanks for your post.


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## BestNThDez (Sep 30, 2009)

Well, I've increased poundage 2 turns and decreased poundage 2 turns with no changes. I've using a different release with no changes. I rechecked for fletching contact. I switched to a whisker bisquit and the 1" high tear is now about a 1/2" tear, but now has a right tear instead of a left tear (I'm guessing the yoke adjustment I made before is now showing up as the right tear). My whisker bisquit doesn't have an up/down setting, but I'm at 1/8" high nock point right now. My buddy said to check tiller, yes, on a Mathews, so I'll do that. I've shot a shorter arrow with no change also. I'm so frustrated.


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## nomad11 (Apr 14, 2006)

BestNThDez said:


> Well, I've increased poundage 2 turns and decreased poundage 2 turns with no changes. I've using a different release with no changes. I rechecked for fletching contact. I switched to a whisker bisquit and the 1" high tear is now about a 1/2" tear, but now has a right tear instead of a left tear (I'm guessing the yoke adjustment I made before is now showing up as the right tear). My whisker bisquit doesn't have an up/down setting, but I'm at 1/8" high nock point right now. My buddy said to check tiller, yes, on a Mathews, so I'll do that. I've shot a shorter arrow with no change also. I'm so frustrated.


Just curious - if you nock an arrow and assume the shooting position, reach over and grab the arrow and rotate it, on the same plane, 90 degrees to the string. If you do that does the string rotate as you rotate the arrow? Or does your string stay static and the arrow rotates freely, with little or no resistance? If your string rotates with the arrow it may be an indicator of nock pinch. Not so if it rotates freely. If the former...and if you're using a D Loop, the loop may be making that pinch or your nock could be too tight. A tight nock can give one a higher tear thru paper...a tight D Loop can give one all sorts of problems, including a high tear. Just wondering.


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## WhiteTail180Ks (Jun 13, 2011)

In regards to the post about problems with the helim paper tune. I was having the same problems with my 2012 Carbon Element. I corrected it by putting it 12/16 to center and adjusting d-loop to 1/8nock high. Before the adjustment I was just a little over 1/16th off on both. Shooting perfect bullets now. Also in your post, you said you were shooting 385fps?? That has to be a mis-print. I also shoot a Mathews Monster 6" and it's tricked out and I'm only shooting 347fps. Just wondering.


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## MikeHarmon42 (May 6, 2012)

I think he meant to say 285. He corrected himself in a later post. So, arrow spline could be a little stiff?

Sent from my phone.


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## MikeHarmon42 (May 6, 2012)

The bow is set to 60 lbs. I think a 400 splined arrow would work better for your setup. I'd center everything back to normal specks and try a weaker arrow. Your nock point should never be set 3/16" low. At least I've never heard of someone needing that low of a setup. Just a thought though. I'm no expert.

Sent from my phone.


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## thare1774 (Dec 13, 2010)

^This... 400 spine arrow will shoot better with a 60lb set up


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## riflenut (Jun 26, 2013)

My heli m 60-70 # limbs seems to like 11/16" centershot. Set at 58 pounds shooting 28" flatline 400 arrows with 2" blazers, 85 gr points. My bow likes to be set flush with(over) the hole in riser. My dealer set the bow up originally with what seeem like 1/8" knock high. My bow was shooting decent in the horizontal at 40 yards but would be erratic in the vertical plane. After adjusting my biscuit height up so the arrow runs flush across the berger button hole she shoots. I'm afraid to shoot more than 1 arrow at the same target at 40 yards. while using the biscuit and my vanes are straight. Not to mention I'm shooting a 1/4" peep sight. So don't let anyone tell you the biscuit won't shoot. I would recommend anyone with a new bow to first install a biscuit rest (one with an adjustable height feature) and see if the bow will shoot before going to a drop down rest. Also in static position with arrow layed beside idler cam, my arrow runs what look likes parallel all the way to the d-loop connection on the string. She draws smooth as silk. Been out of archery for 23 years until a month ago when I purchased the heli m. I had a gent watch me shoot who's been shooting for over 40 years and he too shoots a mathews = a switchback. He couldn't believe it had been 23 years since I'd shot. I was wearing out the target at 40 yards. He said my bow must be very forgiving for me too be shooting it that tight, so he shot it 3 times. He has a 29 inch draw as I. He said it was smooth and quiet. I have put one of the 20 dollar small stabilizers weighting 3.6 ounces on it and it does quieten it down a little more. After getting this bow wish I'd never got out of archery. Bows and arrows have changed quite a bit since 1989.They are killer now. And 50 yards doesn't seem to be that difficult of a shot compared to back then. It is still unbelievable just how slow and smooth you can draw the heli m. My bows of the past were monsters (pse mach flite 4 and high country) that had to be pulled to get over the cam or wheel, not to mention having to break the limbs over. The heli m limbs don't move much and the heli m you draw instead of pull. I will buy another heli m soon but with 60 # limbs. So my advice to you is set the knocking point up flush and get you some arrows that are spined correctly for your bow. Also it would seem on a well tuned bow with an arrow slightly over spined your centershot should run slightly outside of 3/4". Good luck with your bow.


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## kilerhamilton (Jul 19, 2010)

weak arrow and draw is to long are common left tear issues. I bet if you shot a broad head it would be to the right. helium is a mighty small bow for a 30" draw length.


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