# Rock climbing tools and techniques for hunters



## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

We're talking tree stand harnesses, ladies and gentlemen.

We've been having a lively discussion over on the newbie forum (Click here to read all about it...) where a harness manufacturer is selling what I believe to be an expensive, over-engineered solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

Guys, there is a better way that reduces weight, reduces cost and increases safety. And it comes out of a discipline that's been tried and tested in the harshest environments on Earth by thousands and thousands of people that use harnesses to stay alive all day long. That is, the mountaineering and climbing community.

So my comments are based largely on my background in rock and ice climbing in the mountains. M7Archer suggested I create a post on using climbing gear and techniques in our tree stands. So here goes!

******* LIGHTWEIGHT SUPER-EFFECTIVE TREE STAND HARNESS

Here's my tree stand harness - the same harness I use when rock and ice climbing. It's a Black Diamond Alpine Bod. It weighs 14 ounces and costs from $30 to $40.











Here's a locking carabiner...











Here's a "double length" nylon runner.











Here's a "daisy chain". You may wish to substitute a Metolius Personal Anchor System for this component. You clip in to the various loops to adjust how close you are to the anchor (or the tree in our case!). Clip into the last loop, put a twist in the daisy chain, and clip into any other loop to shorten the tether.











Here's how I rig for the trip up and down the tree. Clip the biner through the waist belt and leg harness loop.











Here's how I rig for the long wait in the treestand once I'm up and ready to hunt. Again, clip the biner through the waist belt and leg harness loop.










*******

OK, anyone have comments, questions, flames - whatever? :wink:

STL


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## neo71665 (Jul 26, 2007)

stl said:


> ) where a harness manufacturer is selling what I believe to be an expensive, over-engineered solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.


Welcome to hunting.

"deer corn" $7+ per bag
I can get 1 tons of it by trailer for livestock feed for around $50
unless my math is totally screwed that less than $1 per 50lbs


Sent block, enough said

climbing harness, I use the one from work but I did give a bit more for it but wearing it 12+ hours is no problem

salt block for deer, $14+
salt block for livestock, $7+

You slap deer, turkey, ducks on any product and it seems people go stupid. The same people that will drive around to save a nickel per gallon for gas will happily pay double the price cause it comes in a camo package that you throw away.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I hope that you give much more detail on what you are doing. 

I recently tried some recreational tree climbing with the double rope technique. The recreational tree climbing harness are designed for the climber to just sit in and hang in place. The tree climbing instructor said that rock and mountain climbing harnesses are not designed for the climber to just hang in. There is a possibility that the rock harness will limit the circulation in your legs.

I didn't like the comfort level of the tree climbing harness. The harness pressed on the bottom of my rib cage.

These tree climbers have a hammock called a tree boat which they use to sleep over night in the trees. 

I am looking for an inexpensive tree saddle harness that is comfortable. There has to be something like the regular tree harness but with a spreader to keep the straps apart so that they don't push into your sides.


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## 25ft-up (Mar 14, 2010)

Will this harness,being hooked at hips, keep me upright in a head over heels fall? I would prefer that over the hss ultra light if it's just as safe in a fall.


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## matlocc (Sep 29, 2009)

I have the rock climbing harness and have thought about using it, but the idea of slipping and whipping around face first into the tree spooked me. I am not sure how long you could just hang there, but I am sure that as long as you are not unconcious you would be moving to get back into the stand.
I do like being able to lean out and be attached to the tree also with a regular harness.


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## marson (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm with the OP. I haven't used the HSS harness, but the harnesses that come with stands are a joke IMO. They are patterned after the harnesses used in the construction industry, which are A) somewhat idiot proof and B) require someone around to rescue you.

I have tried hanging from both a rock climbing harness and the harness that came with my stand, and there is no question in my mind which one I intend to use--it's the rock climbing harness.


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## fmb (Jan 23, 2006)

what keeps you from falling out of it if you go out of your stand headfirst? no shoulder straps....seem like it would slide off your ankles and down you go head first.... .. no thanks, My Seat of the Pants harness is simple, safe and makes sense. You guys have fun with your half harness


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

fmb and 25ft,

Hit YouTube and check out some climbing videos. You'll see that we take WAY bigger and hairier falls than hunters slipping out of their stands. Many times a rock climber goes upside down, and no, the harness does not slip down or off. It's absolutely as "safe" as it can be.

And yes, we do have fun with our 14 ounce packable harnesses - thanks! They're so compact and lightweight that we don't require a huge pack just to drag a harness with.

STL

P.S. I just shot a nice 8 pointer tonight while tied in short with my 14 oz. harness. SWEEEEEET!


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

STL,
It's been 15+ years (pre marriage and kids) since I used my climbing harness.... I haven't thought about my experience doing that stuff until recently. I always felt that the climbing gear was better suited for tree stand work too, but never needed to worry about it in ground blinds. Alas, my harness seems to have become too small for me. I briefly considered having another waist belt stitched over the existing one to give me the extra length needed (I have access to a commercial\heavy duty sewing machine, as well as having friends that have a commercial awning business. Getting the sewing done isn't really an issue, but the proper webbing material might be. Obviously, I would prefer new instead of modified. Are you aware of any manufacturers that produce a harness that would fit my fat-assed 42" waist and be rated for ~280#? Yeah I know I need to drop some weight and if I could get down to 245# or so I would probably fit into my old harness at ~38" waist... I see that Petzel has a basic harness that goes up to almost 40", but the better harnesses max out at about 38".


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Actually doing some deeper searching I think I found what I need...Black Diamond Vario Speed Harness


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## jmak (Aug 7, 2008)

Total newbie to rock climbing with a couble of questions that otheres my also have. Do you have any pics with you connected to the tree in the two different configurations and how you connect the locking carabiner to your harness? Can a rope and prussic be substituted for the nylon runner and dasiy chain? How does this work when you are facing away from the tree? Where does the daisy chain run, around your side? Also, your harness looks a lot different from the Black Diamond Vario Speed Harness. Can you explain the advantages/disadvantages of each?

Thanks,
jmak


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## fmb (Jan 23, 2006)

stl said:


> fmb and 25ft,
> 
> Hit YouTube and check out some climbing videos. You'll see that we take WAY bigger and hairier falls than hunters slipping out of their stands. Many times a rock climber goes upside down, and no, the harness does not slip down or off. It's absolutely as "safe" as it can be.
> 
> ...


good for you, have fun with it. Just curious tho, which harness are you looking at that takes "a huge pack to drag a harness with"? :lol: 

Personally I prefer the straps over my shoulders, but to each his own.


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## Ken K (Sep 15, 2004)

Stl,
Any chance of a pic of this system hooked to your actual harness? Just a little confused on that part. Thanks for posting some very useful info. Ken


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey JimP

I have been part of the thread over in the new user posts.
I have been hinting from a trophyline tree saddle for a few years. I also taught myself to climb drt for light pack in afternoon hunts and morning where I can leave the rope in the tree as it is a bugger to throw a rope in the dark. when I climb I install a rope bridge from dloop to d loop and use this to tie into the rope. I use an anchor knot on my biner and blakes hitch. Once at hunting height and have my steps or plarform installed I switch of this sytem to my linemans belt and then to a tether with a prussic. great mobility in the tree. Check same could be done with the harness that STL is talking about.

Guys STL has some really great info to share and he is talking about tried and true systems....

You can not flip over in the the harness as you should be anchord at he belly button area and tied in short so if you fall you will settle into an upright seated position and be close enough to get back toy your stand. If you carry a length of webbing with you that you could loop around the tree choker style I believe it is called a girth hitch?? and create a foot loop in it you could walk down the tree by stepping into the loop taking the weight off of your harness and lowing you tether and sitting back into the harness then lower your foot loop. It will be somewhat slow but atleast you can get down the same day and without injury or death....never cut yourself free once you realize that you can not get down....you chances are just as great of injury from the fall....

Hey STL----congrats on that 8 point!!!


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## matlocc (Sep 29, 2009)

how are you connected when sitting in the stand? with the attachment point in the front where does your tether strap go? Is it loose and laying over your legs? Can't quite picture how you are in the stand.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

fmb,

Hmmm... Let's see.

*****

1) Here's the most compact full body harness.











2) Here's my climbing harness.










****

Everyone knows where #1 came from - it's the standard model that's issued with most new treestands these days. It's about as minimal as you can get, and still have a full body harness with the long tether up the back. That's as compact as it can get, because the more elaborate models have built-in vests, seat-belt buckles and other unnecessary junk. So #1 is a best-case scenario.

#2 is a simple climbing harness set up as I've been recommending.

So, do we want to sacrifice our entire fanny pack to an unnecessary full body harness, or sacrifice 1/4 of it to a more minimal climbing harness which is all we really need in the first place?

To use your words - to each his own. If you want to haul a super-expensive pile of unnecessary webbing around the woods - knock yourself out!

STL


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## fmb (Jan 23, 2006)

NP, but I spent 30 bucks on my SoP harness, I put it on at the truck and take it off when I get back to the truck so I hardly notice it. No pack space wasted, but as I said, to each his own, its good to know the options I guess.


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

STL you might as well save your breath,,for some reason these guys love their nut crushers .


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## Jake L (Aug 20, 2010)

I have taken many falls with a rock climbing harness while rock climbing and have never ended upside down. Couple of times to mess with a belay partner on an inside climb I would invert, but it was more trouble than it was worth to get there. The rock climbing harness cinches above your hips and uses them to keep the harness from going anywhere. Really only downside I see is you will be spun back to swing facefirst into the tree after the fall. Then again you tie off rope should be such the once you fall off the stand you only go a few inches and self rescue is nothing more rolling/sitting back onto your platform.


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## B.Hunt (Aug 7, 2009)

I like this idea. I to would like to see some pics of you in the tree with this on. Thanks for the idea.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Several folks have asked about how to clip in to the runner/daisy chain combo.

Imagine that my laptop screen is the tree and then clip the black biner, exactly as configured here...










to the gray vertical loop in this...










That's all there is to it.

STL


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## volgrad7 (Aug 5, 2010)

I have a vest that takes less than 1 mintue to put on and lock into including tethering to the tree. The total system cost me approximately 50 bucks which according to your pricing is about the same possibly even cheaper when said and done. This allows my upper body to be supported throughout the fall and not just at my midsection and furthermore is designed to support my weight for the extended time it could take to get help or back to me steps or stand where as from my reading, rock climbing gear is not specifically designed to do. I place my vest on, walk in, climb the tree and tether. Im not packing anything anywhere. So, while i appreciate you sharing the info and understand where you are coming from and accept your knowledge as a rock climber i will respectfully disagree with your logic and stick with what i am certain will save my life, not what is lightest "packing" around


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

If you ever use a rock harness i bet you would never go back , but as long as we are all happy that's what counts.


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## B.Hunt (Aug 7, 2009)

stl i sent you a pm.


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## ayr_aca_cs (Jul 21, 2009)

Maybe (probably) I am just a bit slow. But is there anyway that someone who uses the rock climbing harness system post pics of them wearing it how they would while climbing at tree and of how they would use it as they sit in the stand? Could anyone recommend an online store where one could purchase everything? Thanks for bearing with the slow guy.


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## jmak (Aug 7, 2008)

ayr_aca_cs said:


> Maybe (probably) I am just a bit slow. But is there anyway that someone who uses the rock climbing harness system post pics of them wearing it how they would while climbing at tree and of how they would use it as they sit in the stand? Could anyone recommend an online store where one could purchase everything? Thanks for bearing with the slow guy.


x2 plus can you use a safety rope with a prussic knot


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## jlh42581 (Oct 21, 2009)

i think we need a video, id trade 2.5, 5... 3... whatever lbs for 14oz. at 14oz i COULD put it in my pack without wasting space. also, you could add/remove layers of clothing much easier.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

volgrad7,

Thanks for your respectful tone. I think we can advance this discussion, and this sport, if we could all interact like that.

I do want to push on your last sentence a bit. "i will respectfully disagree with your logic and stick with what i am certain will save my life, not what is lightest "packing" around"

How, exactly, are you certain your solution will save your life? Why is my solution merely "logic" and yours is a certainty?

I submit to you that my solution is far more sure and backed up by far more actual test data than these full body harnesses with tethers above the hunter's head.

My solution has been tested under far more rigorous conditions, with exponentially more actual falls, than any hunting harness has or ever will be tested. I can say that with absolute certainty because rock climbing on lead, especially the art of "sport climbing", involves falling as a regular part of the activity. Reference the CE and UIAA testing standards for more information.

And then for everyone else - here's another hint for those of us who are still unsure about whether hanging from a tether connected behind your neck, and tied above your head, is inferior to a standard climbing harness used according to accepted climbing practice.

Imagine you are in my harness, tied to the tree with about 2 feet of webbing. When you "fall", do you really fall? Or do you merely weight the harness? And if you actually come off the stand, where is your tether to the tree located? Is it above your head and behind you, or right in front of your belly? And if you answered correctly (right in front of your belly), do you realize how easy it is to grab the tether and pull? Is that WAAAYY easier than doing a Batman-esque maneuver to grab a tether located behind you between your shoulder blades (like the full-body harnesses employ)?

I hope this discussion will help move this community forward, especially in areas like tree stand safety - where the results of foolishness and unnecessary over-engineering are so costly.

STL


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## B.Hunt (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks for the response to my PM. I am going to check this out. I wonder how many other hunters use this option? I would like to hear from other guys about this. Thanks again and congrats on the 8pt also.


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

I thought the main reason most of us use a full body harness vs. climbing harness is 
because of the fact we are strapped from the back & not the front like a climbing harness. 
Wouldn't using a climbing harness force you you face the tree for it to work correctly 
& not wrap around you? 

I have a Uncle that's a Master Glass fitter on high rises only. Only wear's a full body. 
No one on high rises uses a climbing harness. Main reason is being strapped at the back 
& not front.


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## JPHI (Dec 24, 2009)

STL, I am familiar with ropes and rigging. I've been involved in SAR for a little over 8 years and have training in rope systems. If an individual has experience with ropes and harnesses they can pull off your idea with little difficulty. I would not recommend this to anyone who hasn't been trained or who has no experience with ropes as I would not recommend anyone who hasn't had training to go out and rock climb or rappel. The one nice thing about the commercial harness is the fact that you need no experience.


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## ollie6x47 (Nov 28, 2009)

I have been using my climbing harness for a few years now. It gives me more freedom of movement and it makes the wife happy that i wear a safety harness.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

JPHI,

If you have been involved in SAR, and I have no reason to doubt the truthfulness of that, you know that a statement like "you need no experience" is never the case. In fact, if a person falls in a full body harness connected by a long tether anchored behind their shoulder blades and hangs facing away from the tree - they need way more than experience to pull off a self rescue. 

They need a miracle - compared to using a climbing harness.

A simple climbing harness tied in short puts the anchor point on the hunter right in front of their belly, where even the fattest and most out of shape among us can grab the tether, and along with one's legs, pull oneself back into position on the stand or tree steps.

I'm sorry brother, self-rescue in a climbing harness tied in short is no more complicated - in fact it's simpler - than in a full body harness with a high tether tied behind your back.

But thank you, sincerely, for your SAR service over the last many years.

STL


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

STL told you didnt i? :lol:


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Ib4,

You told me so indeed! But there are a few posters here who are now seeing, or who have long seen, the light. And I knew there would be some backlash to this knowledge being shared. 

And really, the reason I spoke up on this is not merely because of the standard full body harness that threatens to steal all my available pack space. If you want to carry a harness with twice the webbing, that takes up lots more space in your pack, and is more difficult to self-rescue with - then as I said - knock yourself out.

The real reason I started all this is the over-the-top RescueOne CDS (discussed here) that really got my goat.

I'm just a little sick of the fear-mongering and "bubba wisdom" that gets whole cottage industries started to fix problems that are only really in the minds of the profiteers. I'm all for solutions to real problems, and the profits such solutions generate. But that CDS thing and the way it was being sold on the newbie forum . . . it really got me started.

My point is - whenever we can, let's learn to look to those who are really advancing the limits of what man can accomplish rather than to those who are simply manufacturing more and more junk to sell at Bass Pro.

STL


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## garrickt (Mar 30, 2008)

stl, with all due respect I understand where you are coming from. I've climbed rock all over this country and used both systems extensively. I currently hunt out of a tree saddle which is basically a climbing harness with a butt hammock, works great and super comfortable. Your idea is not new and while it is valid and would work just fine most people are not familiar with it. There is nothing wrong with the current treestand harness system and it is by no means over-engineered. When I do hunt out of a stand I use a regular treestand harness, I've thought about using one of my climbing harnesses but never have come up with a clear advantage. With the tether properly attached and a little forethought on it's placement, it is no problem to rescue oneself from a fall in a standard treestand harness.


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## roscoe221 (Aug 7, 2009)

I didnt know there were recreational tree climbers. And why would you want a hammock to sleep up in the trees? I have just never heard of that. Sounds crazy. But what i want to know is why do people say that somebody would have to come get you if you were hanging from your harness. Why would you not grab onto your steps or ladder or whatever you use to get up to stand, or climb back up your harness strap or rope, or just grab onto the stand and hoist yourself back up. I mean if you cant even do a pull up and hoist yourself back onto a stand do you really need to be in one in the first place.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

garrickt,

Thank you for your respectful tone. 

But with all the respect due a person who's climbed lots of rock - I must ask, how can you say that a system like a standard full body harness is not over engineered if it solves no more problems than a standard climbing harness which has 1/2 to 1/3 the webbing (and no seat belt buckles!)? And some of these full body harnesses cost $200-$250! That's over-engineeered and over-costly... 

How can you say that "there is nothing wrong" with a full body harness that, should a catastrophic failure of a stand occur - ENSURES that the hunter will be stuck facing AWAY from the tree, and in a situation requiring significant gymnastic ability to self-rescue?

When I'm facing the tree, and the tether is in front of me and is at my waist - I can grab it and find my footing on my stand. If space aliens have stolen my stand out from under me, I can find my way to my steps.

I never suggested using a climbing harness is a new idea or is my own. But when I see poorly engineered substitutes that actually make self-rescue harder constantly proposed as miracle solutions - I have to come out of the woodwork.

Thanks for your comment!

STL


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Pahunter. I would like to see some pictures of you and your setup. What you are doing is exactly what I have been thinking would be the best way to hunt from a tree. Do you use a foot loop prussic to help with the climbing? I have only climbed a couple of times so take this as just what a rookie thinks. The tree climbing guys are using a modified blakes hitch. The modified hitch has 3 turns on the bottom and 2 turns on the top. I asked if I could use a blakes hitch and was told that the modified hitch was easier to control and that I could not use the blakes hitch when climbing with them. Instead of leaving your rope in the woods you might want to consider leaving only a small pull up line in the tree. That way if it get stolen you are only out a couple of bucks. What brand rope are you using? If you wanted could you just hang in the tree saddle for the entire hunt or is it essential to have some foot pegs or limbs to stand on during the hunt?

One other suggestion for all who are using a life line with a prussic knot as a self rescue system, tie some slip knots in the life line at 5 feet off the ground and at 5 feet or so spacing between slip knots all the way up to where you are going to hunt. If your prussic knot does not grip tight, and you start falling down the line the slip knot will stop you. You can then tighten up the prussic if needed and then pull the slip knot out and then descent to the next safety knot and pull it out.

With a standard tree stand harness, you need to have a good plan for self rescue. Some carry a couple of screw in steps to screw into the tree after they fall so that they can get a foot on the step and take the weight off the harness and to help get back into the stand. If you can't get rescued in about 15 to 30 minutes, you may lose control of your legs and possibly die a slow death while hanging in your harness.


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## B.Hunt (Aug 7, 2009)

"I mean if you cant even do a pull up and hoist yourself back onto a stand do you really need to be in one in the first place."

Nice comment roscoe 221 i guess we can't all be perfect like yourself.

Thanks for the info guys and the thread


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Actually I've done your one better. I combined my rock climbing harness with the upper portion of an hss vest type harness. This allows me to attach in the front (belt level) while climbing and then I switch to the high, behind the head attachment point while hunting. This way I don't have the safety line in front of me while hunting. Works great.


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## JPHI (Dec 24, 2009)

STL,
I get what your saying about the saving weight, a commercial full body harness is going to take up some more room and weigh a little more. I just don't see the self rescue advantage. When I attach my strap to the tree it is high enough so I can sit in my stand with vert little slack, I can't even lean over to tie my shoes. If I fell I would end up with my butt higher than my treestand platform. The damage I would take would be from my lower back hitting the seat. I'd fall less than three inches. I just measured two harnesses, one tether is 20" and the other is 24" so if I put the tree strap even with the top of my head I would fall 8 inches with the 24" tether.

Thanks for your support of SAR. I have been fortunate to be part of a very good team.


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## Tyro (Oct 25, 2010)

STL,

I agree with you on this one. But, not everyone should be engineering there own saftey systems. By the way Trad is the art in climbing.


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

Hey STL,

I'm with you on the light and fast philosophy. I'm always trying to lighten my load and make things easier on myself. I have modified my hunting harness to get rid of the fall loops and shorten the safety tether because I believe my harness is suppose to keep me from falling out of my stand not just simply prevent me from hitting the ground, so I want it short and tight. 

I have an Original Wilderness Instructor Belt as shown in the link below.

http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=2309&parent=142

I am considering retiring my hunting harness for this. This seems even lighter and smaller than a rock climbing harness. Are you familiar with this? Have you considered using this as a fall restraint instead of the rock climbing harness? What is your opinion of this option?

I know that it is definitely not comfortable to hang around in. If I use it with my Lone Wolf hand climber and the foot portion broke away, it would be very difficult to get myself seated again in the seat portion, especially if I hurt an arm in the fall. I think if I had another safety rope with a prussic knot and biner with loop attached to the biner in my pocket, I could loop the rope around the tree and stand up in the loop. I could probably climb down the tree with this method, alternating standing up and sliding the upper rope down, then sitting down and sliding the foot rope down. Although, if injured, it would complicate matters drastically.

How well do you think the belt and this self rescue method would work?

Robert


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Let's look at a few of y'alls excellent comments...

JPHI, I agree that the only advantage of a climbing harness over a static full body harness in a non-catastrophic stand failure is the saved pack space. However, in a catastrophic stand failure like this fella's (he hooked his stand up with the wrong strap), a tether in front of you and at your waist will give you something to climb. A tether connected between your shoulder blades will hang you out for the birds to eat. Admittedly this is a rare occurrence, but since a climbing harness is superior in the weight, packability, cost and clothing add/removal areas - I'll still go with the climbing harness.

Tyro, I agree with you, but I'm not suggesting someone engineer their own safety system. The system I'm highlighting was engineered by the collective wisdom of the climbing community over several decades.

Hootsma, that belt would be nice if we were sure that our stand would never break, and thus we'd never have to hang in our harness. But I would never use it, because:

1) it does not allow me to hang in it
2) it depends on the quality of my pants (!)
3) it costs the same as my climbing harness

Thanks guys for taking an active role in your own safety and future, for thinking through your harness options and for not simply buying whatever has the coolest packaging at Cabelas. :wink:

STL


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## matlocc (Sep 29, 2009)

Can someone show how they sit in their stand with a climbing harness on. I have each and wondered about using the climbing harness.


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

matlocc said:


> Can someone show how they sit in their stand with a climbing harness on. I have each and wondered about using the climbing harness.


heres all i have,,you can get a idea of how the rope lays for me. its never in my way or binds me up.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks Ib4Hoyt!

There's a little less loose tether for me. I just require the ability to turn in a half-circle, and to sit at the end of my stand facing the tree with the tether tight.

STL


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

STL
honestly I hate my harness, its bulky, sloppy , the straps dont stay tight to the buckles ,Its a PITA to put on in the dark and I constantly have the feel of the rope and strap behind me poking me .and honeslty im not sure if i fell out the leg strap buckles would keep the webbing in them , it just not a good design , but I fell 17 ft 20 yrs ago and landed flat on my back , I got lucky ad unscathed other than bruised and winded but I have worn a harness since . I am looking for a belt setup myself , I used to get climbing stuff sales flyers all the time but havent seen one in 10 yrs . for you guys saying if you fall you will still be in your stand , " What If " your stand falls or breaks then what ? there was a recent thread on here from a hunters stand that the strap or chain broke and the guy fell 22 ft , i will give you this atleast you guys are wearing something but I myself will be going to a climbing belt just for the comfort and ease of use factor


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

pure havoc,

When you say "I hate my harness" because of all the reasons you mention, I understand completely! That's why we climbers use what works best with the least hindrances.

And for those who wonder where to buy, check out moosejaw.com, northernmountain.com, rei.com, sierratradingpost.com, mountaingear.com or bentgate.com.

STL


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## ayr_aca_cs (Jul 21, 2009)

Ok I get what to buy as far as the harness portion and the carabiner, but other than than what does one need to purchase. I see there was a double length nylon runner, I personally have no idea what that is or how to hook that up. I also saw what was called a daisy chain, again I have no idea what that is or how you hook that up. I apologize if this sounds dumb or if you have covered it but it has gone right over my head. Do you buy nylon runner and daisy chain or do they come with the harness? Thanks for bearing with me.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

ayr,

These items do not come with a climbing harness.

A "double length runner" is a piece of webbing anywhere from 3/4" to 1" wide (some are smaller, but pick at least a 3/4" one) and around 46 inches long. It is sewn to make a loop or a sling. 

Like this...

A daisy chain is just like the above, except it's sewn in multiple spots to make loops. Or, it can be a bunch of individually-sewn loops linked together. I actually like the latter better. 

Like this...


You can see how to connect them by looking at my pictures above.

STL


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## WKP - Todd (Apr 25, 2007)

I use alot of climbing stuff in my set-up's as well. The problem with the treestand industry is that you are forced to "standardize" your offerings of harness's to meet and fit all users. You don't see many 300 pound rock climbers for a reason! Most of the guys in our market just aren't in good shape so the equipment must work on everyone! Climbing stuff is 10x better than anything we have in this industry; but it doesn't seem like the end users have the same mentality. A climber falls to his death and it's generally accepted that they were doing what they loved, and knew the dangers. A hunter falls from a stand and before you know it; the treestand manufacturer is responsible for it? Lawyers have ruined this industry!


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

my brother and i used to climb some when we were younger and i like the idea of using the climbing harness. i also like the idea of facing the tree after a fall. for those who may be worried about the tether attaching in the front and being in the way, what about this: attach the tether in the front and then run it around the waist to the rear and, in the middle of you back at the belt of the harness, secure it with perhaps a zip tie? this would keep it out of the way for hunting but would break away during a fall and allow you to face the tree afterwards. i don't know, this idea just popped into my head.


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## mattbrewer320 (Oct 29, 2009)

This thread is very interesting. I think a smaller, lighter, easier harness is a good thing for sure. I still don't see a good way to hook up to the tree from the front of the harness. It seems like the rope would have to draped over your shoulder or around your waist and would hinder your ability to turn around in the stand if need be. It just seems to make more sense to have a tether in the back of the harness. I know several people have asked for similar explanations or pictures as well. It looks like if you were tethered in the front a fall would spin you pretty violently back towards facing the tree. Again, I'm certainly interested in finding a better solution than a vest or a SOP harness.


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## ayr_aca_cs (Jul 21, 2009)

STL, 

Thanks for your help/patience. It must be frustrating to deal with clueless people like my self. I believe I am getting the gist of the whole thing. Do you use the set up going up the tree similar to a lineman's belt? I am pretty sure I have figured out the long sit set up. But the way up and down I am wondering how you use the set up? if at all thanks


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

STL,

I'm just curious as to why you do not use and climbing rope with a prussic knot and biner instead of the running loop and daisy chain. It seems it would be easier to adjust the prussic by simply sliding it along the rope versus unclipping and clipping the biner. Especially if a deer comes in and you have your bow in your hand and you need an extra couple of inches to get into a good shot position. It also seems to be less clutter as well.


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

mattbrewer320 said:


> It looks like if you were tethered in the front a fall would spin you pretty violently back towards facing the tree.


i can't speak for the sop harness, i have a hss. but i decided to test the comfort of my hss one day by leaving it attached and climbing down my steps until the slack was gone letting myself 'hang' while i could keep my hands on the steps. after that test, i believe spinning and hitting the tree while your able to protect yourself with your hands as you fall while wearing a climbing harness would be much better than the hss leg straps snatching your crotch. and i'm not knocking the hss. i wear it with confidence. but i do think a fall while wearing it would be painful. though not as painful as hitting the ground!


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

ayr, check out picture #5 on my original post. The dark green sling is merely girth hitched to the light green daisy chain. Then, the end of the dark green sling is clipped into the biner on the harness, and then the daisy chain is clipped to the biner by making sure to clip the last loop of the daisy first, twist the daisy, and then clip the particular daisy loop that puts you where you want to be from the tree.

Hootsma, I don't use a climbing rope for the tether because it's stiffer, heavier and more unwieldy than the limp (this is getting weird!) sling and daisy setup I use. But you are right, it'd work just as well.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

This looks like it could be a great idea and it does address a concern I have been having about the traditional type harnesses being hooked in the back and what to do after a fall. While looking at the specs on the "daisy chain" strap I am concerned about the tearing strength of the loop stitching. The data says that that place is only rated for 300 lbf and I know that there will be considerably more force generated by a real fall when you have any slack in a rope. Is this really safe enough? Doesn't there need to be some type of "arresting" device to slow your fall so the body parts aren't totally shocked?


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Bowtechie,

The daisy clipped on both ends will hold, oh, something like 17 kilonewtons. But clipped just through the loop stitching, I think we're talking 3 kn. So the stitched loops are only designed to hold body weight. That's why we clip into the end of the daisy, twist it, and then clip the loop to make the proper length. If a stitch rips, the biner's still connected to the daisy. 

And the stitch will only rip in a "good fall".

As I mentioned, I've actually switched my rock and ice climbing (where real falls actually happen!) gear to the Metolius PAS daisy chain, which is a sequence of individually-sewn loops. You could hang a truck off any one of the loops, and you're good to go.

As far as a dynamic load distributing system, it's not necessary in this application because we are tied in short and tight. There are no significant fall forces that will possibly shock load the static system. Check out my comments here that deal with this in a tree stand application.

STL


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## jca (Dec 13, 2002)

stl..just want to say thanks! Even tho i have and use an HSS, i fully agree with 100% of what you are saying and doing.
All of these systems are ALOT safer then falling to the ground when used properly. Some are more user friendly and easier to decend and/or get back into a safe position.
Whatever we use, please be prepared for the fall by having a plan! Cell phone,2 way radio, knife, tether tied tight and high enough so you dont fall more than just a few inches.
But again, a big thanks for all of your helpfull info! Just a brotha lookin out for a brotha!


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## roscoe221 (Aug 7, 2009)

I just dont understand the whole if you fall while attached at the back your gonna hang there facing away from the tree. If that happens your back will be touching the tree. Even a woman of average strength could turn herself around to face the tree. That strap will just twist very easy. Many many times have I just hung from my HSS harness just for fun and you would be surprised how easy it is to maneuver around.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Roscoe, next time you're hanging out in your harness, reach behind your shoulder blades and grab the tether. Now pull yourself up the tree. Unless you have the flexibility of a contortionist, the strength of He-Man and the nerves of Dirty Harry - my guess is you won't be able to gain an inch.

I prefer the tether to be in front of me and at my waist level - where I can pull on it in the event of a catastrophic failure of my stand.

JCA - you're welcome!

STL


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## JPHI (Dec 24, 2009)

STL,

I see what you mean about self rescue by climbing the tether. I wasn't understanding the need even if my stand collapsed because I don't use a climber. In my case if the stand falls I rotate to my right and there will be my tree steps, with a climber I would need a different plan.

With your setup you can climb up but than what do you do? No trying to be a smart *****, just curious to hear your plan. I thought about what I would do in that situation and all I could come up with was to call someone for help.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

JPHI,

You're right, if both sections of my climber fail catastrophically, then I've got a tough maneuver to make. I've got to struggle sliding a girth-hitched sling down the tree, bit by bit, as I unweight it by holding the tree with my arms and legs. Because the tether's at my waist and in front of me - it'll work, but it won't be pretty. 

Truth is, if I was very concerned about both sections of my climber failing, I would simply remain connected to the tree the whole time I'm up as I do when I'm ascending/descending. That is, in the configuration of a linemans' harness as in picture #5 above. That way, the slide down the tree would be less stressful.

But the chances of both sections of my climber failing are so slim as not to be a concern. If one section fails, I've got the other to stand or sit on while I unweight the sling and inchworm downward.

STL


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

JPHI said:


> STL,
> 
> I see what you mean about self rescue by climbing the tether. I wasn't understanding the need even if my stand collapsed because I don't use a climber. In my case if the stand falls I rotate to my right and there will be my tree steps, with a climber I would need a different plan.
> 
> With your setup you can climb up but than what do you do? No trying to be a smart *****, just curious to hear your plan. I thought about what I would do in that situation and all I could come up with was to call someone for help.


call might be all you could do. but while hanging in a climbing harness you'd be much more comfortable and, since a climbing harness doesn't restrict blood flow to your legs by pinching off your femoral arteries, i would think it'd be much safer. thinking about it though, if you really wanted to, your tie off rope could go all the way to the ground and you could attach your tether to it with a prussic loop. in the event of a fall, you could keep a figure 8 with you (it's a rapelling device), loop the rope though it and clip it to your harness, then disconnect or cut the tether and lower yourself to the ground. this would work also with lock-ons where you have a rope to tie into for safety while climbing the stand.


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## JPHI (Dec 24, 2009)

lukeandwillsdad said:


> call might be all you could do. but while hanging in a climbing harness you'd be much more comfortable and, since a climbing harness doesn't restrict blood flow to your legs by pinching off your femoral arteries, i would think it'd be much safer. thinking about it though, if you really wanted to, your tie off rope could go all the way to the ground and you could attach your tether to it with a prussic loop. in the event of a fall, you could keep a figure 8 with you (it's a rapelling device), loop the rope though it and clip it to your harness, then disconnect or cut the tether and lower yourself to the ground. this would work also with lock-ons where you have a rope to tie into for safety while climbing the stand.


My harness has piece of webbing that is attached to the tether. he webbing is in a loop and stows in a piece of elastic. If I am hanging I reach up and free the loop and stand in it. This is designed to take pressure off the legs. It's a nice little feature on the harness. 

STL, Thanks for the reply.


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

stl said:


> JPHI,
> 
> You're right, if both sections of my climber fail catastrophically, then I've got a tough maneuver to make. I've got to struggle sliding a girth-hitched sling down the tree, bit by bit, as I unweight it by holding the tree with my arms and legs. Because the tether's at my waist and in front of me - it'll work, but it won't be pretty.
> 
> ...


heres what i posted in a thread awhile back .....ill get ta link but heres a copy paste of it,,might help some on what i have planed if my stand drops out from under me.....



Re: Rock climbing harness

i dont use a rope all the way to the ground to descend on,,i took a 12 foot piece of 10 mm climbing rope and put a figure 8 in both ends,then with 2 foot of 8 mm i made a prussic knot,,i made 2 of these just alike. one is for around the tree when i climb( just wrap it around the tree and put the 8 and prussic through the other 8) hook your harness to the prussic and move it up the tree as you climb.
If the stand should fall and i am hanging there, hopefully i took great care in putting my pack where i can reach it because this has the other line in it (i guess i should go ahead and take it out and put it around the tree also to start with, but anyway) , now you have a line you are hanging on and the other just like it right below the first one,,,,, you can take the bottom line and move it down as far as you can reach and still put your foot in the prussic knot,,now grab the tree and step up enough to take the pressure off the main line you are hanging on,,,slide it down the tree as far as you can and sit back down in your harness and move the bottom line down and keep doing this until you step on the ground, you can climb the tree doing the same thing in reverse if you want but thats why they make climbers!


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

stl said:


> Thanks Ib4Hoyt!
> 
> There's a little less loose tether for me. I just require the ability to turn in a half-circle, and to sit at the end of my stand facing the tree with the tether tight.
> 
> STL


actually what you see here is the end of my rope....where im attached is higher up with a prussic knot,,,but i have a figure 8 on both ends and i hook the 8 to my harness as a back up and it keeps the loose end from dangling.

works for me im sure theres better ways.


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## DUGuy (Feb 11, 2009)

This is one the best threads I've read on AT. 

I thought about my using my harness right after I gave it to my cousin because he just got into rock climbing. Looks like I need to put some pressure on him to buy his own stuff (or maybe I upgrade....)


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

I went to Moosejaw they seemed to have great prices and free shipping over $49 and are closest to me , So anyway I bought the next step up on the harness since I was going to pay that difference in freight anyway since I wasnt going to get to the $49 and figured I might as well put my shipping dollars to work for me . 
Black Diamond Momentum Harness XL and Metolius Element Key Lock Carabiner I will sill contine to use my current ropes with Prussics . $61 shipped to my door cant wait to try it out and be able to tie off and hang a stand without any problems 


stl said:


> pure havoc,
> 
> When you say "I hate my harness" because of all the reasons you mention, I understand completely! That's why we climbers use what works best with the least hindrances.
> 
> ...


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If you guys want a good video on tree climbing and the equipment and knots that are used, take a look at treeclimbing.com and order the tree climbing video. 

I wish that I knew more about rock climbing. stl is using terminology that I don't totally under stand. I guess that I need to go and look at some rock climbing sites and get educated.


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## B.Hunt (Aug 7, 2009)

STL or Ib4hoyt what do you know about ABC guide harness good the bad any info would be great


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## rcgerchow (Dec 20, 2006)

Most must know that men are visual creatures hence the plethora of porn available on the internet. So with that being said pictures of the harness and ropes actually attached to a human and possibly a tree would be very helpful.
After reading most of the posts here I would surmise you are talking about ascending and descending in a climber and falling out of a stand. It seems that most accidents happen while climbing into or down from the stand. How would this type of harness be used in that situation? If I use tree steps/sticks there will still be branches on the tree that negate the use of a lineman's rope or belt so is a safety line with prussic the only alternative?


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## Ken K (Sep 15, 2004)

When using a harness with a rope/prussic tether to the tree, should the main line be static or dynamic rope? And the accessory cord for the prussic should be approx. half the diameter(for ex. 12mm rope, 6mm accessory cord?)Thanks, Ken


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## ilarcher (Jan 25, 2004)

This is a great thread. I have been rock climbing(more of the indoor gym climbing really) for years. I just want to say something about if or when you fall,,,with a rock climbing set up you will be facing the tree, so when you are hanging there facing the tree you can bring your feet up and push yourself out like you are repelling down the tree. If you do this it will take the weight off the leg loops and transfers the weight to the belt. 

STL makes some very good points about this set up, it has been proving itself for many many years in rocking climbing. BUT it is not for everyone, to each there own. I just wish people would be more open to this set up, I have used both set ups(my sport climbing set up and my full body set up). For me I perfer my sport set up over the full body maybe because I have been climbing for so long.

Don't bash the set up if you have never tried it,,,it saves lives just like a full body and is better than not being tied in at all.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Guys, think hard before you buy a harness without the snap leg loops like the BD Bod and Alpine Bod. The convenience when putting it on and taking it off, with boots and heavy clothes on, cannot be overstated.

And B.hunt, I am not familiar with the harness you mention - sorry...

STL


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## My2Sons (Jan 5, 2007)

Very interesting. I hunt a lot out of a treesaddle, but find myself in a stand often enough. 
Another call for pics of the actual harness and tree connection or link.
Does anyone have any opinions how the climbing harness would work for kids?


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

Ok. Started to lean more to this. 

One my Loggy Bayou Transformer is very fatiguing on all day sits & two, when hanging from 
it my legs go numb so fast! 

Thanks for the suggestions.

One question, on a harness like the Alpine Bod, can you use the gear loops for a linemen belt? 
I couldn't find any info weather they can also safely support body weight. 

Stl, well done on the thread. It's been posted before, however you've done a little better job 
the the descriptions & details, so thanks.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Wyetterp,

The gear loops are definitely not rated for bearing heavy loads. They're good for hanging stuff off of you, not the other way 'round.

Just clip both ends of whatever you use to go around the tree into the central clip-in point on the front of the harness.

And thank you for your kind words! 

STL


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## My2Sons (Jan 5, 2007)

More questions. 
Do you find that you bang into the carabiner and make noise?
Assuming right handed, do you have the tether on your right or left?
Do you have trouble shooting in any particular direction?
Thanks.


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

Thanks Stl. I'm in. Good bye $150 uncomfortable full bodies!


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

My2Sons,

On your kids using them - my boys, from the time they were 5, climbed in climbing harnesses. They work fine for kids (appropriately sized, of course). The carabiner hangs in nylon loops - so there's no noise whatsoever. The tether runs around my right side, so that my left arm gets full extension for the shot. I have no trouble shooting in any direction. The only trouble I have is in spinning a full 360 in one direction. I can only spin 180 in one direction, 180 in the other.

Wyetterp - cool. My advice is to pay attention to details, as with anything, and these harnesses will work just fine!

STL


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## My2Sons (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks again.

I still think it would be great and further prove your point if you had some pics of you attached to a tree. This may have just made my Christmas list.


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

you could always run a line from the top of the stand to the ground with a prussic on it ths way your always connected you would just have to move the knot up an down as you go or carry a extra rope with a prussic on it and tie in above the limb and then untie from the previous line . just a thought 


rcgerchow said:


> Most must know that men are visual creatures hence the plethora of porn available on the internet. So with that being said pictures of the harness and ropes actually attached to a human and possibly a tree would be very helpful.
> After reading most of the posts here I would surmise you are talking about ascending and descending in a climber and falling out of a stand. It seems that most accidents happen while climbing into or down from the stand. How would this type of harness be used in that situation? If I use tree steps/sticks there will still be branches on the tree that negate the use of a lineman's rope or belt so is a safety line with prussic the only alternative?


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## CUTIGERS (Dec 16, 2004)

Got lucky. I went to the little outdoor store in my home town and the had the BD Bod in stock and on sale 2%5% off. Paid $40. Can't wait to try it out. Its going to solve having take off my full body harness to change my shirt in the stand.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

I would take some in-tree pictures, guys, but I'm traveling on business until next Sunday afternoon. Sorry brothers! Anyone else care to snap a few pics?

But seriously guys - to simulate this solution - tie a bit of rope to your belt buckle, and tie the other end around a tree. Experiment with the length of the rope to leave hanging in order to move 180 degrees in two directions. Now use your imagination muscle to pretend there's a locking carabiner clipping the rope to your belt instead of a knot. There you have it. That's how it works.

STL


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## My2Sons (Jan 5, 2007)

Stl,

Are you familiar with the Treesaddle? If so, what are your thoughts on the use of the runner and daisy chain to replace the tree strap? It would have a constant load of your weight. I(and several others on here) have already replaced it with climbing rope and prussic, but always looking to get lighter and simpler.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

My2,

Yes, the Treesaddle looks much like a fattened-up climbing harness. I mentioned to someone in this conversation that I wouldn't buy one because of the cost and weight as compared to a climbing harness - but that the concept and engineering looked OK as far as I could tell from the pictures.

I would think a "girth hitched strap" is a "girth hitched strap", so you certainly could replace the Treesaddle's tether. The only thing I'd wonder is if you'd get annoyed trying to spin in circles in the Treesaddle with the loops of the daisy chain running and bumping through the harness.

I dunno - it prolly wouldn't bother me, but that's just the way I am...

STL


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## jmak (Aug 7, 2008)

stl and others,
Thanks for all the valuable info in this thread. I plan on switching to this setup but am concerned about failure of the daisy chain as shown in this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58qWRr4LiBY&NR=1

My concern is with being inexperienced with climbing equipment and being able to correctly hook up to the daisy chain in the dark to ensure I have a twist in it to prevent the catastrophic failure shown in the video. Wouldn't the PAS be a much better solution for inexperienced people like a lot of us reading this thread?


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

jmak,

You're right, and I've been clear on the fact that if you use a daisy chain, you must clip into the last loop, and then twist it before clipping into any intermediate loops. Then, you're good to go.

I myself have switched to a PAS for my real climbing (where a fall on lead can certainly occur). And I have said a few times in this discussion that you may wish to use a PAS or Bluewater's Titan equivalent rather than the daisy.

But you only have an issue with the daisy in a "real fall" (i.e. where the lead climber falls more than a few feet). Truthfully, for static anchors where you're not belaying a leader, you can clip a loop without the twist. However, I always do the twist, so as to make it a standard part of my process no matter what the environment.

STL


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## DMAX-HD (Jan 30, 2005)

Couple things here I’d like to point out. 

I agree that compared to the HSS system a regular rock climbing harness is superior. But compared to some of the newer full body harnesses – such as Muddy I can’t say that. If it’s lighter it’s only slightly lighter and the reality is there is only a little more material there regardless. Which by the way I’m going to attach my bino’s to anyway. The other thing you get with a Muddy system is a lineman’s belt type system for actually climbing the tree. Now with a climbing rig yea you can get a belt for $30 but what about the rope’s, clips etc. Obviously you need to get the climbing rope because it stretches – right. Plus now I’d have to spend another $20 for a decent bino-strap. So now all of sudden it’s really not as cost effective as what you’re saying.

The other thing that really hasn’t been addressed is everybody in the discussion is talking about ‘self rescue’. What about the more likely possibility somebody gets up an a stand locks in and blacks-out (stroke, fatigue, whatever, ..) and falls. In a hunting harness the users limp body will be hanging vertical. In a rock-climbing harness that’s really in question. It could be any position – including horizontal or possibly upside-down. NOT GOOD. This would be the exact same arguement against a lineman's belt.

Look at my attachment point in the photo – there is no way of telling of how I would hang. Having done some climbing the only thing that keeps vertical if I fall is me making a conscious effort to be in a vertical falling position. But there have been times that have been close.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

jmak said:


> stl and others,
> Thanks for all the valuable info in this thread. I plan on switching to this setup but am concerned about failure of the daisy chain as shown in this video;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58qWRr4LiBY&NR=1
> ...


This is exactly my concern with that daisey chain strap. What is going to happen if you were clipped into a loop 2-3 feet from the end(even with a twist in it) and a stitch fails(which btw they tore just by jerking on it in the BD video) ? What will happen is you will then suffer through a series of quick tears and then when hitting the end of the strap you will have a tremendous shock and end up with broken bones or worse. I'm sure the manufacturer would not approve of this kind of use with those straps. The PAS should be the only choice for this application as I see it.


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

DMAX-HD said:


> What about the more likely possibility somebody gets up an a stand locks in and blacks-out (stroke, fatigue, whatever, ..) and falls. In a hunting harness the users limp body will be hanging vertical. In a rock-climbing harness that’s really in question. It could be any position – including horizontal or possibly upside-down. NOT GOOD.


is blacking out due to stroke or fatigue really more likely? i would think that slipping or losing your balance would be a more likely culprit?


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## jmak (Aug 7, 2008)

Bowtechie said:


> This is exactly my concern with that daisey chain strap. What is going to happen if you were clipped into a loop 2-3 feet from the end(even with a twist in it) and a stitch fails(which btw they tore just by jerking on it in the BD video) ? What will happen is you will then suffer through a series of quick tears and then when hitting the end of the strap you will have a tremendous shock and end up with broken bones or worse. I'm sure the manufacturer would not approve of this kind of use with those straps. The PAS should be the only choice for this application as I see it.


I think the daisy chain stap used in that video was either taped or custom configured to easily come apart. I don't think a real daisy chain strap would be that easy to tear through the stitching. I think there may be a better solution than the PAS and that is a climbing rope with prussic knot that a lot of people have experience using. That's what I plan on using initially until I get comfortable with it. Then I will move to the PAS setup if I think I saves me enough space and weight to justify the additional cost. Note that the PAS is only $10.00 more than a daisy chain strap. The cost for a PAS and runner is $34.

I ended up ordering a Black Diamond Momentum AL Harness in XXL from www.backcountry.com. This harness is the only one they had that came in the larger size and cost less than $50.00. The sales person highly recommended this harness for a beginner. It also had very good reviews. Also, backcountry has a very good return policy. Some of the other places won't allow you to return climbing items.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

jmak said:


> I think the daisy chain stap used in that video was either taped or custom configured to easily come apart. I don't think a real daisy chain strap would be that easy to tear through the stitching. I think there may be a better solution than the PAS and that is a climbing rope with prussic knot that a lot of people have experience using. That's what I plan on using initially until I get comfortable with it. Then I will move to the PAS setup if I think I saves me enough space and weight to justify the additional cost. Note that the PAS is only $10.00 more than a daisy chain strap. The cost for a PAS and runner is $34.
> 
> I ended up ordering a Black Diamond Momentum AL Harness in XXL from www.backcountry.com. This harness is the only one they had that came in the larger size and cost less than $50.00. The sales person highly recommended this harness for a beginner. It also had very good reviews. Also, backcountry has a very good return policy. Some of the other places won't allow you to return climbing items.


Yes I'm sure that strap was rigged to let go easier but nevertheless I don't think anyone should be influenced into trying the daisy chain strap. Even a short 1-2 foot fall could easily tear out a sewn web. A prussic and rope would work good I'd say. I'll just stick to my Tree Saddle since I already have it and feel very safe in it.


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## B.Hunt (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks STL for the response. Another question for you rock climbers. If i was to order one of these belts on line just how accurate are the size charts? How much bigger should i go to be able to get warm clothes on for late season hunting?


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## DMAX-HD (Jan 30, 2005)

Stroke after climbing in a tree - very likely.

Or as your falling hit your head. Same end result.


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

Ken K said:


> When using a harness with a rope/prussic tether to the tree, should the main line be static or dynamic rope? And the accessory cord for the prussic should be approx. half the diameter(for ex. 12mm rope, 6mm accessory cord?)Thanks, Ken


60-65% is what I have found best. I use a 7/16" mainline (approx. 11. 1mm) and a 7mm prusik, so my rig is 63%. I have also used a 6.5mm prusik, but it binds really tight if you load it, doesn't slide as easily and isn't rated for as much load. I have found that a 50" piece of 7mm dynamic prusik cord from Bluewater will make my ideal prusik, if tied with a double fisherman's knot.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If you want to make sure that you are suspended up right you could get a shoulder harness and attach it to the same rope that you are using for your climbing saddle.


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

DMAX-HD said:


> Stroke after climbing in a tree - very likely.
> 
> Or as your falling hit your head. Same end result.


no offense intended because i respect your posts, but the odds of having a stroke after climbing a stand couldn't be classified as very likely. sure it could happen, but i would think the odds would be extremely low.


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## DMAX-HD (Jan 30, 2005)

lukeandwillsdad said:


> no offense intended because i respect your posts, but the odds of having a stroke after climbing a stand couldn't be classified as very likely. sure it could happen, but i would think the odds would be extremely low.


There is no offense taken. I mis-worded my retort. No it’s not common. I should have said: "Of fatel hunting accidents that happen, stroke and heart attack are statistically the highest". I've had a personal experience where just such a thing happened and the individual died from the fall vs. the stroke. Think about what’s happening for an individual who is out of shape – a tree climb can be very strenuous.


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

DMAX-HD said:


> There is no offense taken. I mis-worded my retort. No it’s not common. I should have said: "Of fatel hunting accidents that happen, stroke and heart attack are statistically the highest". I've had a personal experience where just such a thing happened and the individual died from the fall vs. the stroke. Think about what’s happening for an individual who is out of shape – a tree climb can be very strenuous.


i'll agree with that. i misunderstood where you were coming from originally.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Guys,

On daisy chains... 

First of all, the BD video illustrates an operational issue with daisy chains using a regular loop of webbing TAPED WITH SCOTCH TAPE in the configuration of a daisy to make it easy to see.

That IS NOT a real daisy chain!

Second, daisy chains were designed to support the weight of the climber hanging from static, "tied in short" anchors where there is no possibility of a significant fall (EXACTLY like what we do in tree stands using the method I displayed in my original post).

The possibility of a torn loop comes when belaying a lead climber. If you do not know what the phrase "belaying a lead climber" means - then you do not know the purpose for which Black Diamond created that video warning.

We are not, in this application, belaying a lead climber. We are hanging our body weight off of a static anchor with no chance of a significant shock load like a lead climbing fall.

This is precisely the task for which the daisy chain was designed.

Now if, for some reason, you are still nervous about the daisy chain ripping out (which is an unfounded concern in this application since you are not belaying a leader that may fall on you and the anchor!) then put a twist in the daisy, which will keep the biner connected when the space aliens leap on your harness and break the stitching in one of the loops. Or, pay the price for an individually-sewn-loop product like the PAS.

If you want to check my statements on the intended use for daisy chains, check out "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" or John Long's "Climbing Anchors" - the reference standards for the climbing community.

STL


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

*single sticthed webbing as a lineman's belt?*

Hey STL,
You obviously know more about this stuff than I do, so I would like to know if you have ever seen the belt used by Lone Wolf for their climbing sticks? See picture that I attached.
I use this with my tree saddle as my lineman's belt. It is easier to adjust one-handed than a prusik. I am sure that LW would say don't do it, because that is not the intended use, but the fact is that their climbing sticks are rated for 350lbs and this strap is the only thing that holds the stick to the tree. 
What do you think?
I just make a girth hitch with one of the looped ends over my sewn-in D loop on my tree saddle and use a biner on the other side. Very easy to use and much lighter than the belt that comes with the tree saddle. Been doing this for several years and replacing the belt every season (about $10), but I am a little worried now that LW has moved their production to China.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

mtsrunner,

I understand your logic on using this strap. It boils down to static loads vs. dynamic loads. That strap, just like daisy chains and a few other climbing essentials we use, are designed to hold static loads. That is, they are not designed to catch a big fall with huge forces created by acceleration due to gravity.

So I think your logic is sound - just don't go and decide to learn how to climb rock, and then use that strap to tie in to a multi-pitch anchor. A big fall on that strap would be the last thing you remember.

STL


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## kk1340 (Dec 29, 2005)

i am a arborist and climb and remove trees everyday. we have to follow ansi standards so our rope must have a min. breaking of 5400 lbs. i use a 8 mm prussik on a 12 or 11 mm line. there are some many different climbing knots that we use. a good source for climbing info is treebuzz. com.


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

heres a pretty good site that shows all the knots you will ever need and animated.

http://www.animatedknots.com/prusik...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

stl said:


> mtsrunner,
> 
> I understand your logic on using this strap. It boils down to static loads vs. dynamic loads. That strap, just like daisy chains and a few other climbing essentials we use, are designed to hold static loads. That is, they are not designed to catch a big fall with huge forces created by acceleration due to gravity.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Great thread, BTW. Good stuff!


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## Nate23 (Jan 24, 2006)

STL -

When climbing the tree/latter, do you slide your tree anchor (double runner and PAS/daisy chain) up the tree with you as you climb or do you slide a prussic attached to a line running up the tree?

Thanks,

Nate


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Nate, I use the runner/daisy combo up the tree.

STL


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## northwoodsbucks (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey, its neat this got so many hits, I have started a similar thread before with not much traffic. I started rock climbing when I was 10, 6 years before I got my first bow, so I naturally used my rock climbing gear right from the start. I climbed alot for over a decade and taught climbing to beginners for 4 summers.
All that said I feel much safer in a rock harness than a typical hunting harness. Having the strap in the front does a few things, 1 if you fall you face the tree which helps in recovery, 2 with many harnesses suspension trauma is a non issue. While I have an alpine bod I tend to prefer some thing more like the petzel cadilac big wall. On trips out west doing long climbs with multiple lead changes I have done a hanging belay for over 3 hours without discomfort in that thing. 
As for falling out because of lack of shoulder straps it is a non issue. I have had more falls than I can count that involved dropping over 10 feet before being caught including off of overhangs. My longest fall I was 13 feet above my last hex and had a 26 foot drop before the rope caught. I leave about 4 feel of slack in my treestand and feel totally safe. If I want a harness to support me while I lean and shoot I leave my front tie in and also tie in from the haul loop on the back (not the gear loops on the side, the haul loops are generally rated for 1000 lb plus). 
As for climbing I use both a linesman belt and a rope and prussic. To tie in I use a rope and prussic set up similar to to the one sold by hss. 
As for concern about the rope in front getting in the way, just leave enough slack for total freedom of movement. I am right handed and tend to have the rope come around my right side. If you want the extra support from a tighter tie in use the haul (not gear) loop as a seconday tie in point (never use as only tie in point).
All gear can be ordered from rei.com although if you visit a local climbing shop they can help show you how to use it.
If any one needs photos shoot me a PM and I will try and have the wife take some in the next few days.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Welcome to the party, brother!


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## DocB (Jun 27, 2006)

Alright, I'm in too. Just ordered my climbing harness. I think what sells me is not having the whole vest and shoulder straps deal on. I still don't get the daisy chain, web deal but I have a shop nearby that carries that stuff. I suppose it's easier to understand when you actually have it in your hands.


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## CUTIGERS (Dec 16, 2004)

I used to build ropes courses and climbing towers for a living. Spent many hours hanging in a harness. Can't believe I didn't think about this for hunting. I'm on my second hunt as I type this with my climbing harness on. So far so good. Sure makes adding and removing layers easier. Thanks for starting the tread. Now. HSS pro vest for sale


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## kcarel (Jan 19, 2009)

volgrad7 said:


> I have a vest that takes less than 1 mintue to put on and lock into including tethering to the tree. The total system cost me approximately 50 bucks which according to your pricing is about the same possibly even cheaper when said and done. This allows my upper body to be supported throughout the fall and not just at my midsection and furthermore is designed to support my weight for the extended time it could take to get help or back to me steps or stand where as from my reading, rock climbing gear is not specifically designed to do. I place my vest on, walk in, climb the tree and tether. Im not packing anything anywhere. So, while i appreciate you sharing the info and understand where you are coming from and accept your knowledge as a rock climber i will respectfully disagree with your logic and stick with what i am certain will save my life, not what is lightest "packing" around



I'm with you there. It's never crossed my mind that I have (what is apparently) a "heavy" harness on. I put the harness on at home, drive to the road, walk in. hunt for a few hours, walk back to my car and drive home. Take off harness in garage. It never once goes in a fanny pack and all the while it's not crushing nuts either. I'd prefer to have my upper body supported as well. Call it preference I guess


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## northwoodsbucks (Nov 29, 2009)

If I have a fall and have to rescue my self I would rather be facing the tree with the rope at my waist then facing away with the rope between my shoulder blades. 
Also fyi you can buy a climbing harness with shoulder straps if it makes you feel more comfortable although it is not nessisary.


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

Hey Stl,

I was looking at the Alpine Bod per your recommendations and noticed it doesn't have the loop that attaches the leg portion to the waist portion. I assume you simply hook the biner through both when you hook up. Do you get any tinking noise from the biner on the buckle of the harness? 

Thanks,

Robert


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Hootsma,

That loop is called a belay loop, and you're right, it's not on the Alpine Bod. Yes, you clip the biner through both the lower and upper harness loops. No, I get no sounds from the biner on the buckle.

STL


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks STL. I can't believe that thing is only $39.
Have you tried the Couloir? That thing is even smaller, more packable and lighter. Looks like the only draw back is it only comes in burnt orange.

Robert


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

You're welcome, Hootsma. I've had my Alpine Bod for several years now - the Couloir is new. But since I climb for real, the extra stiffer gear loops on the A Bod are better for me.

The Couloir would be great for ski mountaineering though, where you're not carrying tons of rock or ice protection...

STL


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## BigPaGuy (Sep 12, 2004)

Do any of the climbing harnesses come in a size above 44"? I am big, but not completely sedentary....have long thought that it would be good to be hooked up the whole way up and down, and not just while in the stand. Seems like this might be at least one area where the vest manufacturers have an edge? 

Just an observation, not a firm opinion...


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## jmak (Aug 7, 2008)

This one goes up to waist size 45" in the XXL

http://www.backcountry.com/black-diamond-momentum-al-harness


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

STL, love your thread here. I am new to tree hunting and safety from the ground up is important to me. I am totally surprised at the number of hunters who are not attached to a safety line starting at the ground, but that is a discussion for another day.
I too thought to myself that rock climbers / tree climbers already had the solution for tree stand safety, so thanks for your advice and observations on the topic. I have a couple of questions:
1. I planned to use a prusik knot on a vertical static line, could I use an ascender as a replacement for the prusik knot?
2. Maybe you said it and I missed it, but is there a name (in climbing parlance) for the strap that goes round the tree in your pics? ie the strap that is around you computer in your last pic above?
3. Have you used one of the common available tree stand harnesses that attach behind your shoulders and if you have how do you compare it to your rock climbing harness?
4. When you are up in a tree where do you locate the strap that is around the tree, is it at waist level when you are standing vs. having it up higher on the tree or some other location?
5. Thanks for taking the time to share your advice with your fellow archery hunters. (Forget the nay sayers, they exist everywhere)


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## JDZ (Mar 23, 2010)

Good thread. I need clarification on a few things, though.

It was brought up that turning 180 degrees in each direction determines how much slack is in the tether. But, if the tether is around my right side, and I can turn 180 degrees left, wouldn't I have a huge amount of slack when turning right?

Is the nylon runner just "choked" to the tree? Doesn't it want to go slack, thus not staying in place?


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

stanlh,

Thanks! 

#1 - Yes, that's exactly what an ascender is designed for.
#2 - It is often called a runner, or a sling. They're used for all sorts of climbing tasks.
#3 - I have used one (for about 5 minutes!) and quickly came to the conclusions about them that I've discussed here. I've been a climber for many years, and the 5 minutes I spent packing, fumbling with, trying to keep untangled, etc, a full body harness - I knew my climbing harness was MUCH better for the reasons I've outlined already.
#4 - A few inches above waist level.
#5 - You're welcome!

JDZ,

Face the tree, sit as far back away from the tree as you feel safe, and adjust the tether to put some tension on the harness. Now, when you stand up, you'll notice you can turn 180 in either direction, but you can't spin much more than that. And with the girth hitch around the bark of the tree - no, the runner doesn't slip.

STL


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

mtsrunner said:


> 60-65% is what I have found best. I use a 7/16" mainline (approx. 11. 1mm) and a 7mm prusik, so my rig is 63%. I have also used a 6.5mm prusik, but it binds really tight if you load it, doesn't slide as easily and isn't rated for as much load. I have found that a 50" piece of 7mm dynamic prusik cord from Bluewater will make my ideal prusik, if tied with a double fisherman's knot.


Thanks mtsrunner, just the info. I was looking for. I have a 11mm static line from bluewater.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

northwoodsbucks said:


> If I have a fall and have to rescue my self I would rather be facing the tree with the rope at my waist then facing away with the rope between my shoulder blades.
> Also fyi you can buy a climbing harness with shoulder straps if it makes you feel more comfortable although it is not nessisary.


Hi norhtwoodsbuck, do the harnesses with shoulder strap keep you upright if you fall? Does the rope pass through the shoulder strap in some fashion?


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

stl said:


> Guys, think hard before you buy a harness without the snap leg loops like the BD Bod and Alpine Bod. The convenience when putting it on and taking it off, with boots and heavy clothes on, cannot be overstated.
> 
> And B.hunt, I am not familiar with the harness you mention - sorry...
> 
> STL


STL I would have loved to try the Alpine BOD but its just not big enough for me. I need a 38 waist and 26" legs and the BOD only goes to 37" and 25" so I had to take a step up to the next level to get the proper fit . I thought I was going to have it by friday but thanks to Fedex it went from Indy to St Louis instead of Indy to Champaign IL which is the usual route . Oh well I will get to try it eventually


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

PH,

That's cool - it's too bad they don't make the thing in your size. You'll love the climbing harness you've got - Fedex will eventually get it to you!

STL


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## pure havoc (Apr 21, 2003)

Got my harness today , fits perfectly works great ,first thing I had to do was make sure it fit properly ,tied my prusic around the tree clipped in and put my feet up on it and lean back .  I really like being connected out front sure makes it a hell of alot easier to manover around when hanging than connected on my back and hanging and trying to get spun around . I had to break out my full harness just to give it a try and I will tell you it wont be fun or relazing if your hanging with that thing you cant lean back with the strap above your head you dont have the proper balance in it to do so and its a real nut cracker . A+++ for STL and the others for changing my old ways, making me feel safer, and making my sit in the stand more comfortable . 
Thanks guys 
Scott


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

STL, I found the following when reading up on friction knots like the prusik and it's cousins the bachman and klemheist:

"Much like the Klemheist Knot, the Bachmann only works when pulled in one direction and should always be downloaded (weight pulling downward on the knot). Never shock load a Bachmann or any form of Prusik knots for that matter, they could slip and burn right through to the core damaging your main line or even completely failing."

So my question is, if this comment is true, what knot or what device should be used to secure a harness of whatever type to a safety line when up a tree? I had planned to use the prusik or bachman as the knot to use for safety while ascending and descending a ladder stand and while in the tree as my emergency fall protection connection to the tree. Is my thinking wrong or is the comment above just one man's opinion?


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

PH, thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying the freedom and security of a well-designed climbing harness!

Stanlh, on judging knots, we need to understand the vast difference between:

1) The small force caused by a stationary body-weight load taking a stumble
2) The huge force caused by a free falling body on a climbing anchor

The friction knots like the prusik are designed to hold an individual that's not falling any significant distance. If you stumble and fall while using a prusik to ascend a rope - that's precisely what a prusik is designed to catch.

However, the friction knots are NOT designed to hold what's called a "leader fall". Rather than writing a white paper on climbing technique - I'll just refer everyone to "Freedom of the Hills" or "Climbing Anchors". These books are the reference standards for rock climbers. And they're the context into which quotes like the above are designed to be understood within.

So, long story short and simple, a prusik is designed precisely to hold a human body while "tied in tight", where a fall is really just a stumble and where the knot will not be subjected to the huge forces of a leader fall. It's perfect for ascending a fixed line.

STL


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks stl, I read in one of your earlier posts on the explanation of the "leader fall". Thanks for the further clarification. You could be the defacto AT guru on this subject, not withstanding the other climber / bow hunters on here who have generously added their knowledge.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks my brother!


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## house4ursoul (Aug 15, 2009)

"I mean if you cant even do a pull up and hoist yourself back onto a stand do you really need to be in one in the first place."

BUAHAHAHA!!!!
Whats funny is that he is so damn right!!!!


Jokes aside...
The basic rock harness goes over your hips. It wont let you slip right out. I climb ALOT and can tell you first hand after taking 25 foot whipper falls that you will not slip out of a harness if properly worn. However, there is the chance someone is gonna wear it improperly and fall out of their harness. I call it Darwins "modified" theory. Whats even better is that there are so many different harnesses for climbing out there with all different comfort levels and they are all so much cheaper than any hunting harness ive ever seen. As a matter of fact most of the gear I use when backpack hunting is my climbing gear! My runners, carabiners, etc.


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## IB Boyd (Aug 4, 2010)

Hey guys, Im very novice about stands...but there is an old set of climbing gear out in my garage...STL, do you think a rescue figure 8 would be of any use? The ones where you can tie of the slack end on a rappel and use two hands? Gave me a couple ideas.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

IB, 

While I rappel all the time while rock climbing - I can't see the need to do so while climbing up and down a tree. So I can't see a use for a belay device while hunting.

But I'm interested in understanding the use for it you were considering.

STL


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## IB Boyd (Aug 4, 2010)

My lack of experience with tree stands will probably show through loud and clear.....but, was considering a possible alternative to the daisy chain. Tie off one end a rope above where you are sitting, run the line down to the figure eight, and make it off. Coil up the slack and put it under seat. If you fall out of the stand, rappel down the line. Maybe im getting my gear mixed up. been a while since I climbed. We used to rappel with a figure 8. Been awhile since I have seen the "rescue" 8, but thought it might be a possible aplication for it. Would only work with a rescue 8.


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## house4ursoul (Aug 15, 2009)

IB Boyd said:


> My lack of experience with tree stands will probably show through loud and clear.....but, was considering a possible alternative to the daisy chain. Tie off one end a rope above where you are sitting, run the line down to the figure eight, and make it off. Coil up the slack and put it under seat. If you fall out of the stand, rappel down the line. Maybe im getting my gear mixed up. been a while since I climbed. We used to rappel with a figure 8. Been awhile since I have seen the "rescue" 8, but thought it might be a possible aplication for it. Would only work with a rescue 8.


That idea makes sense. One thing though. Youre gonna have rope sitting right in front of your face since the Eight sits right in front of you. But aside from that i guess the idea works. Its just like standing on a ledge for a rest while ascending. 

More importantly I would suggest getting neew gear if your gear has been sitting a while. A faulty harness is as good as no harness.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

IB,

I understand where you're coming from, but that's a bad idea for a few reasons. First, a figure 8 belay/rappel device is known for feeding rope VERY quickly. If you fell on one without really firm control of the rope with your brake hand - you'd sail to the ground and break something. Of course, you wouldn't even have your hand on the rope if you fell. 

Second, as per my previous posts - you don't want to design a fall into your system from the start. Rather, recognize that being tied in short is all you need, you'll never really "fall", and if you slip off your stand, you'll be able to get back to it or to your steps. 

As much as I like climbing ropes, belay devices and all the other climbing gear - it's unnecessary in tree stand hunting. A lineman's harness (or something like my setup that works just like one) is the lightest, most compact thing you can carry and still be as safe as possible on the up and down. Once you're up there, you're tied in short and tight - no fall possible!

STL


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## JDZ (Mar 23, 2010)

In looking at the Alpine BOD and the Couloir harness sizing, should I measure my waist and legs with hunting clothing on? The descriptions for both say that they are built for use with considerable clothing.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

JDZ,

These things have, I dunno, 4 or more inches of adjustment in the leg straps. Get what fits your waist, and enjoy!

STL


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## M7Archer (Oct 12, 2010)

Hey STL,

Glad to see you started this thread. Great information! Getting ready to buy some of my gear so if you don;t mind, I will be picking your brain a bit on the best setup


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## M7Archer (Oct 12, 2010)

I knew this was going to be a busy thread.LOL!

Congrats on your eighter. Buddy of mine just missed one last weekend. Got a bit impatient and fired a 35 yard shot with the front 1/3rd of the deer behind the tree. Took a step forward as he released and whiff, nothing but turf... LMAO... 

Getting ready to pick up my harness. I am going to use the padded AB per your suggestion. WHich ascenders, line etc. you think would be best for use in the tree and the fastest to get me up off the turf once I get to my spot? ALSO, SRT OR DRT


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

M7,

I don't use ascenders and fixed lines in the trees - I can't see how that's any better than an lineman's harness (or my sling/daisy combo) while moving up the tree. But my rock ascenders are the Petzl Ascensions. BD's new ones are excellent as well. And if you mean single rope technique or double - I would imagine a single rope would work fine attached to the tree at the stand and near the ground. 

But again, I can't imagine carrying a climbing rope out there when a double-length sling girth-hitched to a daisy chain works as both a lineman's harness and tether. Is there a reason you want to use an ascender/rope combo?

STL


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## M7Archer (Oct 12, 2010)

I am contemplating replacing the tree stand entirely. then go with a line, harness and some screw in foot pegs for my base. Once I get up to height, I am thinking of setting up my safety tie off using a Purcell Prusik while having the flexibility of moving completely around the tree on the standing line by a mere movement of the feet. This will give me the ability to hide from an approaching Buck by moving around the far side of the tree as he approaches, as well as giving me the versatility to step around the tree on the screw in foot pegs to take a shot that the limits of the tree stand would not permit...

I was looking at perhaps a unicender on DRT... Figure if I could dump the stand, then carrying a bit of line, a unicender, a purcell prusik and a few biners etc. would be as light as I could get... Walk in, set my line and I am up in just a few mins and 360 deg shot capability from the tree... The Purcell prusik I figured would be easy to adjust for snugness as I moved around the tree. Perhaps build a bridge, but I will have to refresh myself on a good bit of this as it has been so long since I hung in the canopy...


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

M7,

Ah, that makes sense. You'll know more about that than I - I still use a stand. I'll be interested to see how it goes for you.

STL


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## waterfalljoe (Oct 27, 2010)

STL,
Well done keeping this thread on topic and providing good info. I have rock climbed for years across the west coast (and world!)...including taking a 40+foot whipper (thats a "fall you don't wish to repeat" to the non-climbing crowd) on a runout lead in the Eastern Sierras after missing a clip. Climbing harnesses are absolutely solid.
Some have mentioned concerns over the nylon parts...at first glance the sewn nylon loops (runners) do seem like the weak link but consider the strength rating for your average locking gate carabiner is ~25Kn with the gate down. On the other hand a factory sewn runner (loop of nylon webbing) has a strength rating nearly the same ~22-24KN...both of which would FAR exceed any situation I could imagine in tree standing. A piece of fabric nearly matches and in some cases exceeds the strength rating of a piece of metal. That is fascinating to me! But proven true.
I would caution a bit on the use of static ropes (and I do appreciate how STL has detailed keeping slack to a minimum). Static ropes can produce some amazing shock forces in even a modest fall...so either snug up the slack or use some of the shock reducing methods described elsewhere in this thread. 
And fellas (and ladies)...keep your gear in good condition...free of grime for the metal bits and out of the UV light for the nylon pieces. 
I am new to archery, but have found so much valuable info in browsing around this forum...thanks all.


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## M7Archer (Oct 12, 2010)

stl said:


> M7,
> 
> Ah, that makes sense. You'll know more about that than I - I still use a stand. I'll be interested to see how it goes for you.
> 
> STL


Haven't decided on that for sure yet and I have forgotten a lot more than I know:confused3: Probably need to ask you some pointers on foot ascenders etc. 

I will definitely need to get some screw ins and try dangling at low heights and see how it feels. I have seen a couple hunters that did this and it was very effective not only for comfort, but also for maneuvering around the tree for the shot... We'll see.LOL! Gonna have to take quite a few practice shots like that before i feel comfortable. 

I ran into this video online when refreshing my memory on a couple things on you tube. I almost forgot about this trick and it is a great way to anchor up in the tree quickly and securely while you minimize abrasion on your line and the tree... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8lXy1hn1UU&feature=related


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I already know the answer but I have to ask. I have an aluminum petzl ball locking carabiner. The carabiner got bent to closed some way so I used a winch and pulled it open but I pulled it open about 1/8" too far so I had to push it back closed so that the gate would operate smoothly. So does this carabiner need to be destroyed or can it be sent back to the manufacturer for inspection or replacement?

The aluminum carabiners seem to take a beating when used with steel D rings.


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

jim p said:


> I already know the answer but I have to ask. I have an aluminum petzl ball locking carabiner. The carabiner got bent to closed some way so I used a winch and pulled it open but I pulled it open about 1/8" too far so I had to push it back closed so that the gate would operate smoothly. So does this carabiner need to be destroyed or can it be sent back to the manufacturer for inspection or replacement?
> 
> The aluminum carabiners seem to take a beating when used with steel D rings.


id toss it and buy a new one,,not that much money to trust your life with. it would probably be fine but why chance it if you dont have to.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

One more question. I have been using the DRT for the last week and climbing up about 20 feet. I am using a harness which consist of a waist strap and a strap that you sit on. I am only connecting to the strap that I sit on for life support. I am using a metal device which I think is called a spreader. The spreader is about 8" in length and has a hole in the center and it has two clips on the ends which I clip onto the D rings of the strap on which I am sitting. The clips on the ends of the spreader are not locking but just spring loaded. I am concerned that the spreader may not be safe for life support because it is not locking. So does anyone know if these devices are considered safe for life support? Also should I also be connecting the D rings on the waist strap to my climbing life line in some manner?


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Jim,

I am not familiar with that harness system, but from the sound of it, I'd lay it on the ground and back away slowly. IMO, you should buy an inexpensive UIAA/CE rated climbing harness like we've been discussing, with the accessories we've been discussing - and you'll be right smack in the middle of what the climbing community's been doing for decades.

STL


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The harness that I am using is the type that most linemen or tree climbers use. It is just a linemans belt with D rings and a 4" strap on which you sit. The strap on which you sit has a D ring on each end and this is what I am using to connect to the spreader and then to the life line.

My main interest is in climbing trees. I have gotten to give the DRT a try and I can climb to my surprise. I am hoping to climb a little each day and build up my strength and confidence. At some point I am thinking about getting a saddle from new tribe. These saddles are designed for comfort and to hang in for long periods of time. I keep thinking that I can use this system for a tree climbing deer stand. Just have to make sure that the broadhead doesn't cut the life line or if gun hunting made sure that you don't shoot the life line. With the new tribe saddles you can hang upside down without falling out of the saddle. You don't want to hand upside down for very long because the blood will pool in your head but you could flip over for a quick shot if you were cocky enough. This might require a whisker biscuit and the 50 yard pin might become the 20 yard pin. I can see it now people asking which pin should I use when shooting upside down. 

The new tribe saddles are more expensive than the rock climbing saddles. So unless you are going to use them as a treestand and not just a harness then they would not be cost effective.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Jim,

You're in territory I've never ventured into. That doesn't mean much of anything, other than I have no experience with harnesses that have no connection at the waist. If the harness cannot slide down your legs, or up your torso - then I suppose the only other question is "how does it compare to a tree saddle?".

My intent in this thread was not to replace tree stands with climbing harnesses, but rather to replace bulky full-body harnesses (used with a traditional tree stand) with lightweight climbing harnesses.

STL


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## phantom1 (Dec 14, 2004)

STL,

Nice thread, thanks! I use a treesaddle and no treestands these days, so alot of what you guys are posting is useful. I agree tying to the front of your harness or saddle seems better than from the back. I am trying a Petl grigri for descending this year. I am severely disabled and it is usually easier than climbing down after a long sit until dark.

Anyway, thanks for the thread!


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Phantom1,

I have used an ATC since I started climbing. I bought a Grigri this year to play with for use in teaching climbing skills to beginners. It's got a long history of doing its job well.

STL


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## atwanamaker (Jul 12, 2006)

This is great info, I am going to make this change very soon. Is there a link to where I can purchase the actual harness? I saw the links to the tether, but not the harness. Thanks for the great post!


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Try rei.com, backcountry.com, mountaingear.com, bentgate.com.

STL


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## 2ringers (Oct 27, 2010)

Stl

On the first page of this thread, you have a picture of the harness with a gray vertical loop as the attachment point. 
All of the pictures I have seen of this harness, do not have the vertical loop on the front. 
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/climb/harnesses/alpine-bod/
Is this something separate that I need to find?


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

2Ringers,

The harness with the gray belay loop is the Black Diamond Bod. The Alpine Bod, which I use, does not have the belay loop. They both work just fine for all the same purposes (the Alpine Bod is a bit lighter and more compact).

STL


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## Teh Wicked (Jul 30, 2009)

A "properly" used full body harness will not harm a hunter in any way. They way they are deisgned these days the teather is just long enough to allow you to sit down in the stand with MAYBE 2-4 inches of slcak to move your upper body around a little while seated. As we all know while bow hunting you stand up to take the shot, so even if you did fall while standing up, you could only fall as far as the seat on your stand. 

I have a Summit climber, and with a harness on it would be IMPOSSIBLE to fall out of the stand. I have literally tried to find a way to fall "out" of the stand. And like I mentioned before if used "properly" a full body harness will not harm you in any way. If you do fall you might have a little bit of a bruse, but nothing more. When properly used one can simply take there foot and put it right back on the platform of the stand and get right back on the stand.

Myself personally I see a few loops holes in your reasoning...
Early in the thread someone mention by the appearance of your harness if you fell out head first what would keep you from falling right out of the harness. You replied with a "Its happened alot while rock climbing and you cannot fall out of the harness head first." I think you over analyzing the situation... the teather on a treestand harness cannot allow you to fall further than MAYBE 2 feet total. so you would not need to do a pull up, or be in any kind of superior shape to get back into your stand safely. So if you did fall out of a tree head first with a rock climbing harness on? Once the teather caught you would jerk violently back towards the tree without your rock climbing helmet directly into the tree. A full body harness will not allow your head to be jerked back into the tree just because the teather point is at the top of the harness. Its designed to keep your body upright and safe. A rock climbing harness is not designed to hold you that way, its designed to hold you by the seat of you pants only. and the teather point being in front of you body could offer some serious injuries just with a short fall by jerking you back towards the tree by your waist instead of behind your shoulder blades.

This also leads me to another point...the teather point being in front of your body will call for LOTS of slack to be laid out so you can turn and make the shot as needed. So this will allow for an even farther fall than a full body harness simply because you would have to teather yourself further from the tree. Not too mention the facts you would loose alot of oppertunities on animals just by getting tangled in the webbing that is now in front of you right int he way of every thing. The teather will have to go around one way or another and that will leave lots of room for tangles in your arms and elbows when trying to manuver for a shot.

A rock climbing harness has been around for a while, there is a reason why they are not standard equipment in a treestand if they was in fact superior in design. Myself personally I would not in any way trust only a waist band with leg hoops and a loose teahter around the tree to save my life. My harness is always secure in every way, exactly how I like it.

not trying to be mean in any way either, I know keyboards are notorious for sounding harsh. Just voicing my opinon...I will keep to my HSS, or even the harness that came with my summit stand from the factory...

I would really like to see you demonstrate this superior way of safety in photos rather than it laying on your table using a laptop as a simulated tree.


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## peeker (Jan 30, 2009)

Kind of like a Tree Saddle. I have been thinking along similar lines.



M7Archer said:


> I am contemplating replacing the tree stand entirely. then go with a line, harness and some screw in foot pegs for my base. Once I get up to height, I am thinking of setting up my safety tie off using a Purcell Prusik while having the flexibility of moving completely around the tree on the standing line by a mere movement of the feet. This will give me the ability to hide from an approaching Buck by moving around the far side of the tree as he approaches, as well as giving me the versatility to step around the tree on the screw in foot pegs to take a shot that the limits of the tree stand would not permit...
> 
> I was looking at perhaps a unicender on DRT... Figure if I could dump the stand, then carrying a bit of line, a unicender, a purcell prusik and a few biners etc. would be as light as I could get... Walk in, set my line and I am up in just a few mins and 360 deg shot capability from the tree... The Purcell prusik I figured would be easy to adjust for snugness as I moved around the tree. Perhaps build a bridge, but I will have to refresh myself on a good bit of this as it has been so long since I hung in the canopy...


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey STL...I was only gone for a short time came home and this thread has alot of action....great topic and great info!!


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Wicked, that's cool - keep using your full-body. I think I've covered your points elsewhere, so I won't go into it all again. But I respect your decision to keep on using what you're comfortable with.

pahunt, thanks again - I'm glad we could work through this together!

STL


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

Agreed....Thanks for sharing all of the great info and helping to simplify the safety of hunting at heights!!

As we have discussed I hunt from a tree saddle and occasionally climb drt. Was playing around this afternoon practicing going from my tie in to my saddle ( rope with prussic to biner) and switching over to a rope (srt) to descend on a figure 8 while my saddle is weighted. Got it down and would be comfortable if the need ever was to arise. When climbing in a stand or on my LW sticks I am going to purchase the smallest diameter line and carry about 30 ft to self rescue with a figure 8. I have a foot ascender that I am going to replace with a sling that I can girth hitch around the tree and use for a foot loop to unweight my harness to switch over (have not mastered the foot lock yet). I have a hand ascender that I will continue to use during this process. pretty simple set up and very light weight...most impotantly safe.....I think I am going to buy a bod harness to climb and descend but use my saddle to hunt from Bod should fit nicely under the saddle. Repetitive yes... but my reason is the bridge on the tree saddle when weighted is up to around my collar bone and I would rather be anchored at the waist for climbing. When hunting from my climber or hang on I will use the Bod only with the rope/prussicbiner or PAS and still have the capability of descent....


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## doug (Oct 10, 2002)

Stl,
Thanks for the information on the Black Diamond harness(Alpine Bod). How much would you say that everything needed would cost?

I say just make a video, it would be worth your time instead of explaining yourself over and over.


Thanks again,
Doug


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## john kristian (Dec 31, 2005)

STL and all,
Thanks for the great information and reasoned discussion.

STL,
would you mind commenting upon the way the trophy line tree saddle connects to wear to the tree? I'm wondering if there is a better solution than the strap provided. 

It's a bit hard to describe the way this works is 12 foot long 2 1/2 inch wide strap has a hook with a safety latch one end and buckle with an an eye on the end of the 12 foot strap. You wrap the end with the hook around the tree twice, tie and overhand knot under three wraps so that the hook hangs away from the tree and towards you. You then run the other end of the strap through the waist belt on the saddle and then click the eyed-buckle into the hook so the strap supports your weight.

It's always a bit clumsy to use, but I have to say it is very positive and provides real security. You think that a daisy chain and webbing sling as you described would work if the webbing went around the tree one complete wrap with no knot? The Trophy Line site at http://www.trophylineusa.com/store.php has a picture of the accessory safety belt. Sorry if my description isn't that good, but there are some pics that might help.

Again, it does work, but a lighter, easier to rig solution would be helpful. 

Thanks again for the great thoughts and analyses.

JK


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## 18javelin (Aug 13, 2005)

stl said:


> Roscoe, next time you're hanging out in your harness, reach behind your shoulder blades and grab the tether. Now pull yourself up the tree. Unless you have the flexibility of a contortionist, the strength of He-Man and the nerves of Dirty Harry - my guess is you won't be able to gain an inch.
> 
> I prefer the tether to be in front of me and at my waist level - where I can pull on it in the event of a catastrophic failure of my stand.
> 
> ...


With that said sir i am going to spin around and grab my stand and pull back into it not the strap im hanging from. Ok say the stand falls i just loop my foot strap around the tree and loosen my harness strap and work down the tree. My SOP deluxe is very light and compact not to mention the reason for the strap in the back is so u stay upright right. Well i have seen sevaral of u rock climbers say worst that will happen is a face plant into the tree well with shoulder straps? what happens if you are unconsious from your fall in you harness? In mine i will be feet down head up. In yours if unconsious will you fall back or does it keep u upright?


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## 2ringers (Oct 27, 2010)

Stl,
I did a test of my full body strap harness yesterday. I used a stepladder and attached my harness and lowered myself off of the ladder and had my wife move the ladder. My back was to the tree. I was able to turn around facing the tree without too much trouble. I put a rope loop around the tree and raised it as high as I could get my foot into it and stood up to try to lower the harness. There was no way for me to get high enough to lower my harness to start down. The strap goes above my head too far.

Here is what I am thinking of doing. Get the Alpine bod harness and get a climbing rope 30' long and use that as a main line. Attach the harness to the main line with a prusik hitch and raise the main line up as I go.

If I fall or treestand breaks and I am attached to the rope, attach another pursik with a loop big enough to get my boot into, raise up enough to lower the prusik atttached to the belt, let myself down onto it and lower the foot loop, and walk myself down.

Does this sound like it would work?
Would there be and easier way to get down? I use a climber so there would be no steps to use.

I had thought of getting a belay device, but I don't know how I would get up to attach it without having something in my way when I start down.


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

John Kristian- I am an avid tree saddle user and I can help with your question. I eliminated the strap and use a prussic on a rope and attach the prussic to my treesaddle with a pear shape locking carabiner. The rope has a loop tied in one end and I wrap around the tree and the tag end goes throught the loop and cinch tite to the tree at just above eye level. The 6 wrap prussic is then adjusted or the drap that I prefer and the biner is hooked to my saddle with the wide side of the biner at the saddle and the narrow side in the prussic. I tie a figure 8 knot about 2 inches below the prussic just for a backup incase the knot ever slid very unlikely though. I keep this rope and biner coiled and attached to one of my saddle loops for easy access once at hunting height. It is lighter and more free flowing than the provided tether.


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

2 ringers A cheap mini figure 8 is what I carry. With the 30 ft rope you would have to get your weight off of your top anchor and weight the figure 8 to descend. I have a foot ascender that I use to step up and unweight my top anchor and then remove the top ascender and lower back down onto my figure 8 and ready to descend. I am not a pro by any means and you would need to practice at low heights but is easy once you have all of your anchors properly adjusted so minimal movement will allow the change over...You would not want to be where you cant stand up enough to unweight the top anchor as it sounds like you experienced with your trial....


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

*tree saddle with prusik and climbing rope...*



pahunt said:


> John Kristian- I am an avid tree saddle user and I can help with your question. I eliminated the strap and use a prussic on a rope and attach the prussic to my treesaddle with a pear shape locking carabiner. The rope has a loop tied in one end and I wrap around the tree and the tag end goes throught the loop and cinch tite to the tree at just above eye level. The 6 wrap prussic is then adjusted or the drap that I prefer and the biner is hooked to my saddle with the wide side of the biner at the saddle and the narrow side in the prussic. I tie a figure 8 knot about 2 inches below the prussic just for a backup incase the knot ever slid very unlikely though. I keep this rope and biner coiled and attached to one of my saddle loops for easy access once at hunting height. It is lighter and more free flowing than the provided tether.


I do the same thing, except I don't tie a figure 8 below the prusik, I use a second prusik trough the biner as a backup. Here is a pic, but I don't have the second prusik hooked in on this one, can't remember why not? MUCH EASIER than the trophyline belt! I have also switched to a bigger prusik since this picture (6.5mm in the pic, but now I use a 7.0 mm). Mainline is 7/16" (~ 11.2 mm).


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

stl- I have to admit, while reading your posts I feel like im back in jr. high sitting in front of the principal.


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

mtsrunner- It is a sweet setup...much better than the original tether. My only concern with your setup and it is highly unlikely but suppose your top prusik for some reason does not hold and slides down I would worry that the downward pressure would release the lower prussic and down you go. I guess if you just weight the bottom and if it fails the top would then grab.... I am over analyzing as usual....


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

crankn101, I don't know if that's a good thing or bad. I've never been a principal, but I have spent a chunk of my life as a teacher. 

STL


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## Oncombat09 (Sep 10, 2009)

STL, as a person who has worked in the tree service industry for 5 years, I have to agree with you. I used my R.A.D.S system to hang my stands this year and feel much more comfortable and secure in my climbing harness than in the treestand industry harnesses on the market. I'm sure you can attest to this as a climber, but I've literally ascended 150' straight up a rope(with an ascender) and my climbing harness didn't inhibit blood flow to my legs at all. In fact, it's comfortable. These naysayers are just unwilling to admit they got screwed on a one dimensional harness when they could've bought something cheaper and more versatile. I think it's funny they're getting mad. :wink:


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

stl said:


> crankn101, I don't know if that's a good thing or bad. I've never been a principal, but I have spent a chunk of my life as a teacher.
> 
> STL


 Im referring to your pic, with arms crossed in disappointment while shaking your head at me.

This is a great thread...:darkbeer:


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Oh man, I'll have to change that avatar then - it's meant to be an amused look. Maybe that's why little kids run away from me shrieking. :wink:

STL


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

pahunt said:


> mtsrunner- It is a sweet setup...much better than the original tether. My only concern with your setup and it is highly unlikely but suppose your top prusik for some reason does not hold and slides down I would worry that the downward pressure would release the lower prussic and down you go. I guess if you just weight the bottom and if it fails the top would then grab.... I am over analyzing as usual....


Yes, I load the bottom prusik and leave the top loose. I also tie an overhand knot in the tag end of the main line. And I also leave my 'lineman's belt' (which is the gray strap off of a LoneWolf climbing stick) attached at all times. If all of those measures fail at once..I guess it is my time to go!

I would like to have a figure eight below the prusik, but do you have to tie it each time? it would seem like you would have to unless you are always climbing and tieing off at the same diameter of tree. Or, I guess you could just tie it at the very end of the rope?
Pics?


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

mts- I think it was you that stated you use the LW strap for a linemans...well I went out and tried yesterday and I do not why I did not try that before very light and easy. I have been trying to change that part of my system but kept going back to the belt supplied because I could not find what I was looking for. The LW strap will work..thanks for that add to the thread!

The figure 8 does not have to be tied in until you need it. I add mine while in the air if needed. You have to install it in the hanging line on a seperate carabiner then hook it to your saddle and take the slack out. Then use your foot to stand up and unweight your top anchor and remove it. Then you slowly lower your weight onto the figure 8 while holding the rope in the ready to repel position. remove the foot anchor and down you go....


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## Teh Wicked (Jul 30, 2009)

mtsrunner said:


> I do the same thing, except I don't tie a figure 8 below the prusik, I use a second prusik trough the biner as a backup. Here is a pic, but I don't have the second prusik hooked in on this one, can't remember why not? MUCH EASIER than the trophyline belt! I have also switched to a bigger prusik since this picture (6.5mm in the pic, but now I use a 7.0 mm). Mainline is 7/16" (~ 11.2 mm).


Jesus, that look like a mess of ropes and a whole lot of hassle to set-up


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

Stl- Is there any reason why I can not anchor to a carabiner utilized as my main anchor for climbing a single rope while using the alpine bod harness?


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

*Hassle????*



Teh Wicked said:


> Jesus, that look like a mess of ropes and a whole lot of hassle to set-up


I guess it could look like it from the pic., but the part in question was the mainline and prusik, which takes me about 3 or 4 seconds to loop around the tree and clip in to my saddle. Everything is tied beforehand.

...and Jesus could probably do it in 2 seconds.:wink:


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

pahunt, I use only a single carabiner. But since I cannot visualize exactly how many slings/ropes you have running through that biner - I would just caution you to check for "cross loading" the biner. As long as you don't do that (and for static loads, it's less of a deal) you're OK. You want the load pulling along the long axis of the biner - not crossways.

But other than that, you should be OK.

STL


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

pahunt said:


> mts- I think it was you that stated you use the LW strap for a linemans...well I went out and tried yesterday and I do not why I did not try that before very light and easy. I have been trying to change that part of my system but kept going back to the belt supplied because I could not find what I was looking for. The LW strap will work..thanks for that add to the thread!
> 
> The figure 8 does not have to be tied in until you need it. I add mine while in the air if needed. You have to install it in the hanging line on a seperate carabiner then hook it to your saddle and take the slack out. Then use your foot to stand up and unweight your top anchor and remove it. Then you slowly lower your weight onto the figure 8 while holding the rope in the ready to repel position. remove the foot anchor and down you go....


That makes sense, now! 
The LW strap idea is brilliant, but I can't take credit for it. I actually read it on a thread on AT about 3 years ago. 
I do think I might have been the first to use the climbing rope/prusik/carabiner, though. 
Good hunting!


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## GSLAM95 (Oct 31, 2004)

stl - You have my interest as I am always looking for ways to lighten the pack and safer simpler solutions. Someone else mentioned it earlier in the thread but I will ask again. What is the chance of you doing a little video of this in use and posting on youtube or somewhere else for us to view?
Thanks John


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## warydragon (Nov 16, 2010)

*My fall protection rig*

This is an interesting discussion. For many years, maybe more than 20, when using my tree climber stands, I have been using a Diamond Alpine Bod climbing harness with a 12' length of 12mm dynamic climbing rope slip knotted around the tree to protect me while climbing up the tree and while hunting. This has worked fine for me. I've never fallen, but I feel confident that if I did I would be hanging from the rope around the tree and not falling to the ground.

I chose the Alpine Bod climbing harness because of the thin legstraps and lack of buckle on the back of the leg straps. The thicker leg straps and buckles on the back of other harnesses were not as comfortable for long sits.

The 12' piece of 12mm climbing rope is tied to both straps of the harness with a standard climber figure eight knot. I wrap the rope around the tree and tie two half hitches back on the rope. This will allow loosening the rope from the tree and raising it as I climb the stand up the tree a foot or so at the time. Movement of the rope makes noise much like a squirrel climbing the tree. I do the reverse when descending the tree. This gives fall protection from when I leave the ground when using a tree climber.

Until recently, when using one of my aluminum ladder stands with a platform on top or a lock-on type stand, I have been climbing the ladder without protection. At the top before I step onto the platform, I would tie the rope attached to my climbing harness to the tree. This has given me fall protection while in the stand but not when climbing or descending the ladder. 

As I get older I am using more hunting tree stands that are accessed by a ladder. Recently, I have been using protection from the ground up while climbing the ladder and in the stand. Lucky for me I control the land I hunt on from ladder stands so I can leave a 12mm dynamic climbing rope anchored to the tree above the ladder stand during hunting season. I am using 7mm climbing accessory chord tied with a prusik knot to the climbing rope. The other end of the accessory chord is attached to the climbing harness with a locking carabiner. Slipping the prusik knot up and down the climb rope is acceptably quiet and gives fall protection from leaving the ground. From what I've been reading recently, I must remember to let go of the pursik knot if I do fall. To climb quietly, I have to be careful to keep the safety rope and the prusik chord from whacking the aluminum ladder.

Since I'm always hunting alone, I've been considering how to get down to the ground if I were to fall and was arrested high up in the tree and something happened prevent me from using the ladder. Hopefully I would be hanging in my Alpine Bod climbing harness by the accessory chord with the prusik knot around the climbing rope attached to the tree. Because of it's small size, I think the Diamond ATC-sport descender would work best for rappelling down the climbing rope. I could use a loop of webbing from the prusik knot to stand up and allow release of the prusik knot and rappel down the climbing rope using the ATC-Sport descender to provide friction for a slow smooth rappel. I have tried this at home but not in the woods. This rig probably needs a photograph.

Equipment needed:
What ------------------------------------Brand ---------Name -----------Approx Cost

Climbing harness --------------------Diamond ------ Alpine Bod -------- $38
12' dynamic 11mm climbing rope -Any ------------ Any --------------- $180 per 50m length
2 ea Locking carabiner -------------- Any ------------ Any ---------------- $20
rappel device --------------------------Diamond ------ ATC-Sport -------- $17
7' chord 7 or 8mm for prusik --------Any ------------ Any ----------------- $ 8
48" nylon sling -------------------------Any ------------ Any ---------------- $ 9
5/16 chain Category 8? go around tree -	Any ------ Any ---------------- $ ? /linear foot

The 50 meter climbing rope can be cut to make the 12' harness rope and 5 each 31 foot tree ropes.

Here in North and South Carolina, including bow and primitive weapons seasons, we can hunt almost 4 months. If the tree ropes are left in the weather for the full hunting year, I suspect they should be retired after one year. Someone else may have information about this.

Before I bought any of my climbing equipment, I took a rock climbing rappelling course at my local climbing gym. I don't remember it being very expensive and only took one afternoon and a field trip. I would suggest that all climbing hunters do the same. It would be very easy to tie a knot wrong or rig some of the equipment wrong. For us hunters, we are usually rigging and un-rigging our equipment at least once each trip in the dark. Your flashlight may not have successfully negotiated the fall plus wearing heavy coat complicates the rigging. Definitely, go through a few controlled fall scenario's with your equipment.

This is a cool exchange of ideas.

Fred


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## pahunt (Sep 30, 2009)

Stl- I would only have my main anchor to the rope I am climbing and descending on and probably a seperate carabiner back to my harness from my upper ascender as a second anchor (backup). While hunting I will be using either a rope and prusik or the PAS to a single looking carabiner. I asked the question because black diamond states NOT to tie in a climbing rope to a carabiner but rather tie to the rope directly to your harness with what looks like a following figure 8 knot. For simplicity of course I want to use a biner rather than messing with knots and would not be falling on this biner unless I fell out of the stand because while climbing I will be just weighting and unweighting on the way up....


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## phantom1 (Dec 14, 2004)

mts, thanks for posting that tether picture, but I am having trouble understanding why there are two prusiks on that rope. I see you have your saddle waist belt hooked to one with a carabiner. Also, how long is the rope you are using? Are you rappeling down it after the hunt?


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

phantom1 said:


> mts, thanks for posting that tether picture, but I am having trouble understanding why there are two prusiks on that rope. I see you have your saddle waist belt hooked to one with a carabiner. Also, how long is the rope you are using? Are you rappeling down it after the hunt?


The second prusik is just a back-up. It is really not necessary, but it weighs less than 1 ounce and I would rather have it and not need it than need it and be screwed!
The rope in that picture started out at 8 feet before I tied the figure eight follow-through knot to make the loop. I retired that one this year and now use a slightly longer one in case I want to hunt a really big tree. The one I use now is 7 feet long from the loop to the end of the rope. 
I don't repel down the same rope that I am tied in to, but you certainly could. Here is why I don't. If you are tethered in to the same rope that goes all the way to the ground, every time you shift your weight, the whole length of rope visibly moves! Even if you have it tied in to the very bottom step or an eye-bolt at the bottom of the tree, it moves too much for my taste in a deer hunting situation. So what I do is attach a separate 'lifeline' that I can hook in to and climb up and down with a sliding prusik, if it is a tree that I will hunt more than once or twice. The tree in my picture above is such a tree. You can see the lifeline above and to the right of my quiver. On this particular tree, the brush is too thick to my right to get any kind of shot, so the lifeline and all of those limbs don't get in the way of any shot. I killed three deer from that tree last year with my bow. Unfortunately, that property suffered a horrendous ice-storm last winter and is virtually un-huntable now.
hope that helps. Let me know if any more ???s


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## phantom1 (Dec 14, 2004)

mts, good to know and thank you! I am using lifelines on most all trees now. I use it to pull up the bow and quiver, then tie it in a loop and hang it on the same peg/step/limb that holds my quiver or backpack, so it is not hanging down the tree during the hunt. At the end of the hunt, I tie the end of rope to bow,quiver, backback and lower them, then use a Petzal grigri to slide myself down. I'm still using the Trophyline strap to tie and I guess I don't need to with the rope already there. I just try to keep learning....not a natural tree climber, but keep improving.

Thanks again!!


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Gslam,

I may get a video done - I'm unfortunately traveling so much lately it gets in the way of these fun projects!

STL


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## Jimbow5 (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm sort of new here, but found this discussion interesting. in the early days of the full body harness, I tried several and returned them all, what I experienced was a tangled mess most of the time, difficult to walk in, the potential for shoulder straps to interfere with bowstring when shooting. I started to check out rock climbing gear and have been using it since.
I use a singing rock fly harness, (no shoulder straps & no way I'm falling out either)I and (2) short lengths of 6mm tech cord. One cord I attach to a 1/2" rope with a prusik loop that I run from above my stand to the bottom step for fall restraint while climbing steps up/down. The other I wrap around the tree while sitting in the stand. secure at all times, The rock climbing harness is easy to walk in, takes up very little space in my pack and is a fraction of the cost of the hunting harnesses.


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## warydragon (Nov 16, 2010)

*Tree climber safety harness*

The attached photo shows the fall prevention rig I have used while hunting from my tree climbing stands. A rock climber's figure eight knot is used to tie in both parts of the Black Diamond Alpine Bod harness. I wrap the 12' piece of 11+mm climbing rope around the tree and tie two half hitches so the rope can be tightened and loosened as I climb up the tree.

My old harness is slightly different than the new harnesses. I have covered the two front buckles with short pieces of bicycle inner tube for sound proofing.

If the stand were to beak or I fell asleep I could only fall a short distance. I do not usually carry the equipment to rappel down the tree after a fall. I do carry my phone and a sharp knife I could use to cut the rope and shinny down the tree. It probably makes more sense to carry a rappel rope, descend control [rappel] device and chords to allow loosening the original safety rope. Although, that's a lot of stuff to carry.

Be safe,

Fred


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

Jimbow5 said:


> I'm sort of new here, but found this discussion interesting. in the early days of the full body harness, I tried several and returned them all, what I experienced was a tangled mess most of the time, difficult to walk in, the potential for shoulder straps to interfere with bowstring when shooting. I started to check out rock climbing gear and have been using it since.
> I use a singing rock fly harness, (no shoulder straps & no way I'm falling out either)I and (2) short lengths of 6mm tech cord. One cord I attach to a 1/2" rope with a prusik loop that I run from above my stand to the bottom step for fall restraint while climbing steps up/down. The other I wrap around the tree while sitting in the stand. secure at all times, The rock climbing harness is easy to walk in, takes up very little space in my pack and is a fraction of the cost of the hunting harnesses.


But none of the big-name TV Hunters do commercials endorsing your setup, so it must be wrong...:teeth:


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## fitzjo1 (Apr 23, 2009)

This has been an interesting thread. I have been using a fixed line and prussic on fixed stands, as someone mentioned above. I put a figure 8 on a bight at the bottom of the rope and just loop it over the bottom ladder step. This way, the rope doesn't have much slack when I pull the prussic UP. At the top, Attach the rope to the tree with a chain and screw link. I don't trust tree rats, and this saves having to walk all the way round the tree, looking for chew damage. This is a very safe system, and not very expensive.

Recently, I left a line in place without a ladder, after hunting a spot in a climber. Then, I used one ascender and a prussic to ascend the line in a tree saddle the next time I went out. This was surprisingly fast and quiet. Better still, I rappelled out when it was time to leave. It was so much quicker that i felt like i was taking the elevator : ).

I prefer a climbing harness in a fixed stand. I put a webbing loop on the back so that I can be clipped on at the front or back, as conditions require. But, I want to figure out the best harness system to hunt from while hanging, so that I can eliminate the weight and bulk of a portable stand. The climbing harness isn't so good for long hangs, which is why I always took a belay sling on long (rock) climbs. I've been experimenting with a buddies tree saddle, and it's decent. But, I still get pressure points and end up having to squirm around. So, I would welcome any ideas on the "ideal" hanging harness.


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

For you guys who use a prussic instead of the supplied safety strap for the tree saddle. I've found that when I weight the prussic, then unweight it and try to slide it, it is very tight and won't budge. I have to work the knot, basically massaging it and bending it back and forth to get it to loosen a little bit before I can get the prussic to slide up or down. Is this what you have to do as well or am I doing something wrong?


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## fitzjo1 (Apr 23, 2009)

I don't use a prussic on the TS, but this is normal behavior for a prussic. There are some alternative knots, but my experience with them is pretty limited. Do a web search for a prussic or klimbheist with a carabiner in the middle of it. It's sort of like a poor man's ascender.

Btw the fastest way to loosen the prussic is to sort of "unwind" it. Hard to explain, but experiment with rotating the loop the tail goes through, and you'll see what I mean.


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

Hootsma said:


> For you guys who use a prussic instead of the supplied safety strap for the tree saddle. I've found that when I weight the prussic, then unweight it and try to slide it, it is very tight and won't budge. I have to work the knot, basically massaging it and bending it back and forth to get it to loosen a little bit before I can get the prussic to slide up or down. Is this what you have to do as well or am I doing something wrong?


Yup, that is one slight downside, but unless your hands are absolutely freezing, it should just be a minor annoyance. The only time I have to do it is when I am through hunting and ready to climb down. How often are you 'loading' your prusik during one hunt?


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

*Feed me!*



fitzjo1 said:


> This has been an interesting thread. I have been using a fixed line and prussic on fixed stands, as someone mentioned above. I put a figure 8 on a bight at the bottom of the rope and just loop it over the bottom ladder step. This way, the rope doesn't have much slack when I pull the prussic UP. At the top, Attach the rope to the tree with a chain and screw link. I don't trust tree rats, and this saves having to walk all the way round the tree, looking for chew damage. This is a very safe system, and not very expensive.
> 
> *Recently, I left a line in place without a ladder, after hunting a spot in a climber. Then, I used one ascender and a prussic to ascend the line in a tree saddle the next time I went out. This was surprisingly fast and quiet. Better still, I rappelled out when it was time to leave. It was so much quicker that i felt like i was taking the elevator : ).*
> 
> I prefer a climbing harness in a fixed stand. I put a webbing loop on the back so that I can be clipped on at the front or back, as conditions require. But, I want to figure out the best harness system to hunt from while hanging, so that I can eliminate the weight and bulk of a portable stand. The climbing harness isn't so good for long hangs, which is why I always took a belay sling on long (rock) climbs. I've been experimenting with a buddies tree saddle, and it's decent. But, I still get pressure points and end up having to squirm around. So, I would welcome any ideas on the "ideal" hanging harness.


Tell me more (type of ascender, pics, etc). I already have lifelines in most of my trees that are prepped for my tree saddle, but I use Treehopper bolts or LW sticks. Your setup would require less junk to carry. I am in really good shape, but have never done any type of rock climbing. Is this an easy technique?

I also like the idea of the chain and screw link for your mainline. I never even thought about checking the backside of the rope for chewing/fraying. Yikes!

Thanks!


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

mtsrunner said:


> How often are you 'loading' your prusik during one hunt?


My preference is to sit with enough drape so that I can maneuver around the tree when a deer shows up. This puts my thighs at about 90 degrees to the rest of my body. After an hour or so of sitting like this, my lower back starts to ache. I am forced to shorten the drape so that my thighs form a 45 deg angle or so with my body. I can sit perfectly comfortable all day like this. The only problem is if I have to move around the tree to get a shot, then I need to lengthen the drape. This is where the issues start for me with the prussic. I can't loosen it quickly and I certainly can't do it with one hand. I think the stock strap is a little bulky and even with a step installed to hold it up on the tree, the knot still tends to ooze its way down the tree. I do like the friction adjuster on the stock strap. It is very easy to use, even one handed. I will probably stick with the stock strap and just shorten it and use either climbing rope and prussic girth hitched around the tree or some type of PALS / daisy chain to attach to the tree.

Robert


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

Hootsma said:


> My preference is to sit with enough drape so that I can maneuver around the tree when a deer shows up. This puts my thighs at about 90 degrees to the rest of my body. After an hour or so of sitting like this, my lower back starts to ache. I am forced to shorten the drape so that my thighs form a 45 deg angle or so with my body. I can sit perfectly comfortable all day like this. The only problem is if I have to move around the tree to get a shot, then I need to lengthen the drape. This is where the issues start for me with the prussic. I can't loosen it quickly and I certainly can't do it with one hand. I think the stock strap is a little bulky and even with a step installed to hold it up on the tree, the knot still tends to ooze its way down the tree. I do like the friction adjuster on the stock strap. It is very easy to use, even one handed. I will probably stick with the stock strap and just shorten it and use either climbing rope and prussic girth hitched around the tree or some type of PALS / daisy chain to attach to the tree.
> 
> Robert


I have done a 'hybrid' like you are talking about. I cut off the 12' TL stock stap and use it with a traditional tree strap that came with one of my treestands. I just leave this one in a tree that I hunt frequently. Kind of the best of both worlds.
I still think that my prusik isn't THAT hard to adjust, even after loaded. What diameter prusik and how many 'loops' do you make around your main line? 
I use a 7mm prusik on a 7/16" (11.1mm) mainline and make 8 loops instead of the traditional 6. I think this keeps it from binding quite so tight when loaded, but will still definitely 'catch' in a freefall situation. 
The other thing I do to adjust the drape quickly is grab the tag end of my treeline with my right hand, stand up on my pegs (thus unloading the line) and grab and adjust the prusik quickly with my left hand. I can do this is about 2 seconds. However, this might require more movement than you find acceptable. 
I don't think I would do this if I knew deer were in the area, either, so that might not be an answer for the situation that you described.

Let me know if you find an even sweeter solution. I am always willing to experiment with my saddle setup.


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## fitzjo1 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hey, mtsrunner. I don't have any pics. But, maybe I'll get my daughter to shoot a few sometime. Anyhow, any cam-style mountaineering ascender will do. Mine is some old-as-dirt unit that's been in my bag for 20+ years. I'd try Petzl. You can get one with a handle, but it isn't necessary. The more important choice is the rope. BE SURE IT IS COMPATIBLE WITH ASCENDERS. I use static line, because I'm not lead-climbing (no long falls) and the stretch of a dynamic climbing rope can be annoying.

In theory, you could just use two prussics or two ascenders. But, ascenders are heavier/more expensive. And, I like having mechanisms with fundamentally different failure modes/strengths/weaknesses.

The ascender has a long, tubular webbing sling to put one foot in. You can buy the stuff by the foot and tie it to length. Experiment to find the best length. I tie it right through the ascender handle (no carabiner to rattle around).

The ascender is also connected to my harness with a sling. THIS IS IMPORTANT. The connection to the harness should almost get tight at one point in the climbing sequence. It's there to catch you if your prussic slips/fails.

The prussic is connected to my harness. I have the overall length of the prussic loop just right so that no intermediate sling is required. Notice that you are now connected to the rope via TWO means. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Attachment to the harness is accomplished with an idiotically strong, locking steel carabiner. A pear-shape is best for the tree saddle. A delta-shape, climbing-rated screw link would probably be even better (smoother/flatter running surface). D-shaped ones are terrible for the tree saddle (due to width of sliding attachment strap)

The idea is to alternate between the prussic and ascender. I count off when I do it, to keep a rythmn and make sure not to forget a step (no danger if you forget, just less efficient). Stand on ascender (using long loop). Slide prussic up. Slide lineman's belt up (I use this as a backup to the rope). Sit down (tension prussic). Slide ascender up. Repeat. You can reverse steps to descend. I just take a figure-8 to rap off on. You could even do a munter (sp?) hitch. But, better to use something idiot-proof if you're new to it. Someone already posted how to get onto it and off the prussic. I always take an extra prussic or two. They're cheap and very handy for hanging stuff in trees.

If you do a search for ascending fixed lines, aid climbing, caving, etc., I'm sure you can probably find 10 ways to do this. Obviously, you will want to try this with a back-up and at low altitude until you know what you're doing. But, it's actually a lot simpler than it seems. Compared to setting 4 LW climbing sticks, it's a breeze (I like the LW sticks, btw).

I eventually want to use the typical tree climbing techniques (rope looped up and back down, blakes hitch, etc). But, one step at a time. Right now my focus is on improving my harness so that it can sit still longer and shoot better from it.

One last note: when you are attached to any rope that doesn't reach the ground, always put a stop knot at the end (I use a single figure-8 knot). This keeps you from accidentally slipping off the end. This is true whether rappelling or simply attaching your harness with a prussic to a tether while on a stand. You can also put a temporary stop knot in at any point along the way.


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## warydragon (Nov 16, 2010)

*Installing and removing a climbing rope for each hunt*

I usually leave the 1/4" pull up chord that I use to hoist my bow up, permanently in the tree. Each year I find the squirrels have gnawed at the knot at the top. I usually have to retie each line a little shorter each year. This worries me about leaving my safety climbing rope in the tree all hunting season.

As Fitsjo1, I would like to access some of my tree stands with only climbing gear. The ideal situation would be to leave a inexpensive small [1/4"] chord looped from the ground over the top anchor above the stand and back down. This chord could be used to pull the ascending rope over the top anchor and back down. I could climb the ascending rope with any of several ascending devices for the hunt and rappel down after the hunt replacing the climbing rope with the little chord. Since the climbing, ascending rope would be in my possession at all times, I would be confident the ascending rope was in good condition.

I would like the top anchor device to be connected to a piece of chain around the tree and a substantial limb for the whole hunting season.

The problem is how to quickly connect the end of the small line to the end of the climbing rope such that the joint would travel across the anchor device. I have not discovered a satisfactory connector device. Nor, have I figured out how to reliably pass a knot through a top anchor device without a lot of noise flipping the ropes.

Seems someone should have invented a little flexible, plastic tube with inside teeth to grip the chord and rope that had a method of disconnecting the chord and rope.

Anyone have any ideas?

Fred


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Fitzjo, I sure would like to see some pictures of you climbing with the DRT and the tree saddle. I would also like to see you when you get to your hunting position. I have been doing some recreational tree climbing using the DRT and it is pretty tough on this old guy.

In recreational tree climbing you don't want to injure the tree limbs so you use a cambium saver. These can be made of many different thinks like leather sleeves or pieces of flexible conduit or even straps with different size steel rings on the ends.

Warydragon one good way to tie the pull up line on the climbing rope is to tie the pull up rope so that it has a loop on the end which is about 6" long. Now take the loop and make a cow hitch (like one side of a d-loop) around the climbing rope about 4 feet from the end of the climbing rope. Now make a loop in the pull up rope about 1 foot from the cow hitch and put the end of the climbing rope through the loop. If you made the loop in the correct direction it will hold when you pull on the pull up rope. Make a loop about each foot along the climbing rope and then at the very end of the climbing rope put two loops within 1" of the end of the climbing rope. This will work very well for pulling your rope up and all you have to do to take the pull up line off the climbing rope is to push from the cow hitch toward the end and everything will just slide off the climbing rope. If you need more guidance for the end of the rope you could probably take just a little tape and use it to make the climbing rope follow the pull up rope a little better.

If anyone wants to know in very good detail how to climb using DRT, I suggest that you go to treeclimbing.com and order the climbing video by Peter Jenkins. I have the video and it is just perfect.


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## fitzjo1 (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi, WaryDragon and jim_p. It sounds like there are a few of us interested in this and we could make some real progress if we put our heads together. Since it might sound like we've gone a bit off-topic, I should mention an important point: none of these ascending techniques will work with a harness that has the primary attachment point behind you (IOW--a standard hunting safety harness). Pretty much all the ascending technique is from rock climbing or arborist work.

I agree that the easiest way to learn DRT is to buy the treeclimbing.com DVD. Even as an experienced rock climber, I learned important new information from it. And, the video footage is very good. It also shows how to pull up a line with a string. But, this requires a limb.

I'm not (yet) using DRT, though. I'm simply fixing a line. The safety concerns due to chew damage are valid. This is why I use a chain as the attachment point and visually inspect the line before climbing.

Ideally, I would like to use a pull-up string/line for my "fixed stands". But, pulling the rope through a chain attachment is a challenge, unless you spend some $$ on a climbing pulley (no way I'd use a hardware store model for this). I think solving this problem could be a real contribution to the field. Maybe I'll do some experimenting over the holidays. It's hard to make myself stay at the house when I could be hunting!

The final hunting position is simple. I'm using a Tree Saddle. But, I am also looking for options on a lightweight hang-on that I can pull up.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Fitzjo 1 since you have seen the DVD, do you think that a tree saddle is more comfortable than one of the recreational tree climbing saddles?

I don't understand exactly what you are doing with the chain. If you are leaving the chain around the tree and leaving the rope tied to the chain, then I can see how you could use SRT to climb the rope. To do this you have to do an initial installation of the chain using climbing sticks or a climbing tree stand, I am guessing. If you could find a large screw closed carabine (sp), you could attach it to the chain and have something to pull the climbing rope through. I seem to remember seeing some for about $5 that were rated for a 1000 pounds or so. I don't think that they would not be considered life support rated unless they were rated for around 4500 lbs. But then again what is the rating on your chain?


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## Hootsma (Feb 20, 2007)

jim p said:


> Fitzjo 1 since you have seen the DVD, do you think that a tree saddle is more comfortable than one of the recreational tree climbing saddles?


Hey Jim,

I had the same thought as you regarding using a true arborist tree saddle. What I found was that most of them were built with a bunch of metal throughout. It seemed like they would be too noisey for hunting purposes. I did find one made by New Tribe called the Tengu that I thought would work. The only metal in it was the center screw lock delta. It had quickrelease leg straps and was in a neutral earthtone grey color. All the reviews I read about it said how comfortable it was, so I ordered it to try it out. It looked very promising. However, when I tried it at ground level, it was no where near as comfortable as the TL Tree Saddle. I had pressure points from the bottom of the waist belt on the top of my hip bones. And after a while the leg straps started to bite into my legs. I ended up returning it. There may be others out there that are more comfortable, but they are probably going to have a bunch of "jewelry" hanging off of them which will make them unacceptably noisy in the field.

I ended up modifying my TL Tree Saddle to fix all the things I didn't like and I'm very happy with it now. It's perfect.

Robert


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## VA2 (Mar 26, 2007)

I would love to see a video of this system......:embara:


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Hootsma said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> I had the same thought as you regarding using a true arborist tree saddle. What I found was that most of them were built with a bunch of metal throughout. It seemed like they would be too noisey for hunting purposes. I did find one made by New Tribe called the Tengu that I thought would work. The only metal in it was the center screw lock delta. It had quickrelease leg straps and was in a neutral earthtone grey color. All the reviews I read about it said how comfortable it was, so I ordered it to try it out. It looked very promising. However, when I tried it at ground level, it was no where near as comfortable as the TL Tree Saddle. I had pressure points from the bottom of the waist belt on the top of my hip bones. And after a while the leg straps started to bite into my legs. I ended up returning it. There may be others out there that are more comfortable, but they are probably going to have a bunch of "jewelry" hanging off of them which will make them unacceptably noisy in the field.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this review. I have gone and climbed using the new tribe basic saddle and it was very uncomfortable to me and I was considering getting a tengu saddle to see if it would be better. You just answered my question. I had the same pressure points that you described when I used the basic saddle.

I am also glad to hear that the TL tree saddle is comfortable. Do you think that the TL tree saddle could be hooked up to a DRT system? If there is some way to attach the TL tree saddle to the climbing rope so that the attachment point would be very close to your naval area it should allow you to climb using the DRT system. Then once at hunting height the saddle would need to be connected to the tree in the typical fashion.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Without reading through 6 pages, can someone tell me if it is possible to use the black diamond harness and a traditional caribiner and prussic connection to the tree? My concern is being able to hook up the caribiner to the back of the harness, not the front.


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## VA2 (Mar 26, 2007)

Meleagris1 said:


> Without reading through 6 pages, can someone tell me if it is possible to use the black diamond harness and a traditional caribiner and prussic connection to the tree? My concern is being able to hook up the caribiner to the back of the harness, not the front.




Wondering the same thing……also what do you hook to when using a linesman’s belt?


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## brickhard (Sep 16, 2006)

I have been a rock climber for 35 years. I use a climbing harness too. Use other gear as well to safely set the stand and when I am climbing up to it in the morning. If you have access to climbing gear (ask friends who climb for their extra gear) and you are willing to spend time learning how to use it then go for it. If you are familiar with a system that works then stick with it unless you are certain you are competent with rock gear. Thanks for posting STL.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Meleagris1 said:


> Without reading through 6 pages, can someone tell me if it is possible to use the black diamond harness and a traditional caribiner and prussic connection to the tree? My concern is being able to hook up the caribiner to the back of the harness, not the front.


I don't know the answer to your question. One of the main reasons to use a climbing harness is so that you will have the hook up in front of you so that you can perform a self rescue much easier if needed. 

If you are a right handed shooter consider hooking up in front and running the life line over your right shoulder so that it will be out of the way.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Meleagris,

There are harnesses that have a "full strength haul loop" in the back. The Alpine Bod has one rated for 12 kN - that should do the trick if you want to anchor back there. However, you'd miss out on the easy self-rescue capability of using the front connection, and the leg loops wouldn't perform as they're supposed to in a real "fall and hang" scenario when anchored off the back.

So, in sum, a full strength haul-loop is strong enough to hold a big fall. But the rest of the system wasn't designed to do so in that configuration, and IMO you lose some of the benefits of the climbing harness when you anchor off the back.

STL


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

That makes a lot of sense guys. I will take a trip to EMS and try the Black Diamond Alpine out and plan on anchoring in the front.


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## insatiable (Feb 8, 2005)

I've recently gone to using a climbing harness and would like some of you experts to weigh in on how I'm using it since I have very little experience in this area.

For my climber I use a 11 mm climbing rope (35 ft) as the main safety line and slide it up the tree as I climb. I attach my harness to this via a prussic know and caribiner using 6 mm rope. I also carry a figure 8 in my pocket and have my pocket knive available as well. I plan to "rappell" down if I have to.

For my lock ons, I use the same 11 mm type climbing rope permanently left in the tree above my lock on and use the same prussic/caribiner rig to climb and come down with. I figure I don't need the figure 8 when using the lock on since I should be able to get back on the ladder (api quick stick).

Thanks 
Insatiable


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## fitzjo1 (Apr 23, 2009)

Insatiable, this sounds similar to what I do. But, I put a chain around the tree at the top and use an 8mm prussic cord. Also, they make different grades of rope/cord. The purpose made prussic cord is more flexible and holds a knot better.

I'm not clear on how you transition to the figure 8 for self rescue. But, I assume you have worked out your technique at low altitude.


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## gselkhunter (Jul 9, 2008)

Back in the stone age a swami belt and loops weren't made yet. We used a 3" web wrapped 3 times around us and a figured 8 style loop of 1'' web for leg loops. If we used any at all. I watched Steve Cheney[aka Muff] do a take off on Chouinard's first belts. No buckles in those days, all ties were with 1" webbing. Which was better ice climbing because ice would build up in the buckle and make a cold spot. Since cold weather hunting is very much the same environment as ice climbing I stay way from mechanical devises as much as possible. I grew up with piolette la platte and piolette anchra as basic ice climbing techniques and ice tools didn't have inter-changeable picks yet. I hate jumars[asceners], I have seen the things fail in wet and frozen conditions too many times. I would stick with prussic knots. In your application I would use a 10mm static line and an 8mm prussic, a little smoother to run with cold hands. For tying off I would use a 1" webbing loop with a water knot loop for a carabiner if your going to go that route. I personally would use a piece a length of 8mm rope tied to the tree and a figure 8 or Chouinard knot tied into the back of your harness, again I hate metal in the cold. I would tie around the belt and not into the loop in back[mental thing with me]. Climbing equipment sure comes in handy in many situation.


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## broadhead_djg (Nov 18, 2008)

It would be great to see the rock climbing harness on a tree in pictures. I also think this looks like a great idea but need to see the visual.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Sorry to bring up this old thread but it has a lot of useful information. I had originally searched for suspension trauma and got to reading all about climbing harnesses. 

It took me a couple days to read through all of the information but the more I read the more it made sense just to use a rock climbing harness instead of a heavy, hot, complicated, and expensive tree stand harness. Don't get me wrong, I like my HSS OK but I'm always looking for something better.

If anybody else has a rock climbing harness and would like to share some tips or experiences I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks


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## bsizzle (Jun 22, 2005)

ttt


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

gselkhunter said:


> Back in the stone age a swami belt and loops weren't made yet. We used a 3" web wrapped 3 times around us and a figured 8 style loop of 1'' web for leg loops. If we used any at all. I watched Steve Cheney[aka Muff] do a take off on Chouinard's first belts. No buckles in those days, all ties were with 1" webbing. Which was better ice climbing because ice would build up in the buckle and make a cold spot. Since cold weather hunting is very much the same environment as ice climbing I stay way from mechanical devises as much as possible. I grew up with piolette la platte and piolette anchra as basic ice climbing techniques and ice tools didn't have inter-changeable picks yet. I hate jumars[asceners], I have seen the things fail in wet and frozen conditions too many times. I would stick with prussic knots. In your application I would use a 10mm static line and an 8mm prussic, a little smoother to run with cold hands. For tying off I would use a 1" webbing loop with a water knot loop for a carabiner if your going to go that route. I personally would use a piece a length of 8mm rope tied to the tree and a figure 8 or Chouinard knot tied into the back of your harness, again I hate metal in the cold. I would tie around the belt and not into the loop in back[mental thing with me]. Climbing equipment sure comes in handy in many situation.


Just wondering, isn't 10mm safety line with 8mm prusik too close to the same size? Recommendations I have read is that the prusik works better when it is 1/2 the size of the safety line. Your thoughts in this?


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## stormsearch (Sep 29, 2006)

Prusik cord size recommendations are generally 60 - 80%, so yeah that recommendation is on the end. The 8mm was recommended because the bigger cord will ride up and down the static line much easier in cold weather when using gloves. There might be some slippage until it grabs but it really depends on rope age, use, rope type, knot, weight, arrest drop, etc. If you can control all those other factors, then 8mm prusik cord on 10mm static line is very reasonably safe. The larger dia prusik rope will also be easier to loosen after a fall if ever needed. The smaller cords will really bite into the static line and be hard to loosen that up. With all that said, I use 6.5mm prusik cord with a 11mm dynamic line (60%) so I'm on the other extreme end.


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## Koorsboom (Dec 13, 2008)

This is an old post but it addresses some issues I have had for a wile now ... however ...

I am one of those guys that need good clear pictures to understand something and would appreciate a video clip or series of pictures to show exactly how the climbing harness is used.

Secondly, I need some advice ...

Most trees around here do not grow as nice and straight as the ones you guys are used to. I was sitting in a treestand about 22ft off the ground last year when I had a look around and asked myself what I would do if I should fall out of my stand. Due to the form the limbs of the tree grew in I would have ended up about 6m off the ground dangling in mid air with the nearest branch about 1.5m away from me. The tree was a very big knob thorn with the branches at the top wider than my waist. There was no way I would have been able to get myself beck into the tree or my stand. Cutting the tether was also not an option as I was not prepared to take the 6m fall.

I am looking for a simple system that could be used in conjunction with the normal tether that connects me to the tree that I can use to lower myself down under control after releasing the main tether tat took the impact of the fall and keeps me hanging until I implement plan "get down safely".

Again, I would appreciate pictures as I have not been able to understand any of the descriptions any of the guys over here tried to give me.

I have zero climbing experience and do not know any of the climbing lingo ...

I look forward to hear from you ...


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## scrapejuice (Dec 1, 2003)

marking for later reading.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Koorsboom said:


> This is an old post but it addresses some issues I have had for a wile now ... however ...
> 
> I am one of those guys that need good clear pictures to understand something and would appreciate a video clip or series of pictures to show exactly how the climbing harness is used.
> 
> ...



I've posted these pics in other threads but here's what my harness setup looks like when I'm hunting.

While at rest









When making a shot









After I have "fallen". Notice that I can reach my stand to just climb back onto it


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## Fdale's Finest (Oct 19, 2007)

for later


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## hunter_tlh (Nov 22, 2005)

I definitely like the idea. I am going to have to get familiar with these.


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## mtmadman (Jun 9, 2006)

Hauser52, Great pictures. They really explain this system; I'm sold. Thank you so much.


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## Sparrowhawk (Oct 19, 2003)

Tagged for later


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## Koorsboom (Dec 13, 2008)

Thanks for the pictures ... I am defenitaly sold.

Do you think that a harness sold as part of a treestand can be coverted into this type of harness by removing the shoulder straps?


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## davs2601 (Feb 6, 2008)

Tagged for later...sounds like a real good discussion


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## duece16 (Mar 9, 2008)

thanks for the pics and info. what kind of harness is that, and what do you have strapped on it going to the purr. knot?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

I just did 1.5 weeks in IL. and used my climbing harness as well as daisy chains and a few lengths of webbing when needed. 

It is for sure the way to go IMO!

I believe the HSS harness is built for the masses, and if that type of system makes one feel more safe,then by all means use it!

But,last year when I used a HSS,after dealing with auto seatbelt buckles and the weight and bulk of the vest...I said never again.

Climbing harnesses are very adjustable,comfortable,strong and light weight.

Im waiting for a company to produce a climbing/hunting harness to bring to market....also,not sure if this was discussed,but we used ascenders attached to fixed static lines when climbing into or getting out of the stand. Super safe and easy to use.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Koorsboom said:


> Thanks for the pictures ... I am defenitaly sold.
> 
> Do you think that a harness sold as part of a treestand can be coverted into this type of harness by removing the shoulder straps?


I doubt they could be modified and still be safe. Personally I wouldn't try it.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

duece16 said:


> thanks for the pics and info. what kind of harness is that, and what do you have strapped on it going to the purr. knot?


That particular harness is the Petzl Aspir. Since those pics were taken I tried a couple more harnesses that I like too, the Black Diamond Couloir and the ABC Guide harness. The Petzl has padded leg straps and the other two do not. Personally I prefer the unpadded legs because there's less under my legs while sitting down.

The thing I have "strapped" to the harness is my tether. It's a 4' nylon runner and is rated at 22kn (5000 lbs.) I'm now using a "rabbit runner" which has a loop on each end instead of one open loop. It's a little lighter and neater. I keep the extra runner in my pack just in case I need it for something, like dragging out a deer.:wink:


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## hardball15 (Jan 6, 2007)

it doesnt look like I could sleep comfortably with that harness.....Gorilla harness for me!


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

You guys are killing me. This is another one of those things that I tried to remember from last year :wink:
Need to find me a source for a climbing harness, as I can't stand the shoulder harnesses.
Thanks for resurrecting this thread.


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## 2ringers (Oct 27, 2010)

Last year I did a trial run. I set up my stand in the back yard, put on the harness which came with my stand, hooked in with my harness and lowered myself off of my stand with a ladder so I was hanging by my harness and had the wife remove the ladder. 

No matter how I tried, I could not make it back into my stand. I also couldn't make it up to the top of my strap to lower myself down. It was up out of my reach. 

I bought the rock climbing gear and tried the same thing. I was able to get back into my stand. Plus if I keep a short section if rope clipped to my climbing belt, I can tie it around the tree and put my foot into it, step up and lower the rope where my belt is hooked and walk myself down to the bottom of the tree, so if my stand were to fail or somehow drop to the ground, I have a way down safely. 

The belt is quick and easy to put on. No straps to untangle. 

I never felt safer in a tree.


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

2ringers said:


> I bought the rock climbing gear and tried the same thing.


Which rock harness did you buy?


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## 2ringers (Oct 27, 2010)

One eye said:


> Which rock harness did you buy?


Same as the one pictured in post one page one.
Black diamond alpine bod. Simple, quick and easy on and off and not too expensive. Plus comfortable for all day sit.


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## bsizzle (Jun 22, 2005)

i remembered reading this thread last year too and then forgot all about it in the offseason. i hate full body harnesses and plan on getting the alpine bod harness asap. i have a eastern mountain sports nearby and am going to pick one up this week. bye bye muddy...hello freedom.


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## duece16 (Mar 9, 2008)

houser52 said:


> That particular harness is the Petzl Aspir. Since those pics were taken I tried a couple more harnesses that I like too, the Black Diamond Couloir and the ABC Guide harness. The Petzl has padded leg straps and the other two do not. Personally I prefer the unpadded legs because there's less under my legs while sitting down.
> The thing I have "strapped" to the harness is my tether. It's a 4' nylon runner and is rated at 22kn (5000 lbs.) I'm now using a "rabbit runner" which has a loop on each end instead of one open loop. It's a little lighter and neater. I keep the extra runner in my pack just in case I need it for something, like dragging out a deer.:wink:


thanks for the info, how long is the rabbit runner?


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## LR243 (Aug 22, 2011)

To the original poster, daisy chains are made to support your weight but not to stop a fall. I use a climbing rope and harness but not a daisy chain. just something to think about.


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Do you use two carabiners for the rabbit runner? One to the prussic around the tree and one to the harness? I really like your setup houser52. I am tired of my HSS with the seatbelt buckles and was going to get a lightweight harness. This will be what I get!

Thank you for posting the pictures.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

The rabbit runner is 44" long. 

You can girth hitch the rabbit runner/ runner to the tie in points on the harness or use a carabiner to connect it to the harness' belay loop which is rated at 15kn. Use another carabiner to connect the other end of the runner to the prussic loop on your lifeline/ tree strap.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

LR243 said:


> To the original poster, daisy chains are made to support your weight but not to stop a fall. I use a climbing rope and harness but not a daisy chain. just something to think about.


Something similar to the daisy chain is the nylon chain which consists of individually sewn nylon loops to form a chain. Each loop/link will support you in case of a fall. I tried a "Chain Reactor" nylon chain but the loops kept getting caught up on my climbing sticks.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

spike camp said:


> I just did 1.5 weeks in IL. and used my climbing harness as well as daisy chains and a few lengths of webbing when needed.
> 
> It is for sure the way to go IMO!
> 
> ...


I wondered if ascenders would be a choice for climbing up to a stand, but are ascenders hard on the rope? Don't some have metal teeth?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

I saw a saftey vest at Scheels today that looks like it combines a climbing harness type of seat with an upper that goes around your shoulders. I don't recall the brand, I had never seen it before. It still had the safety strap coming off the top in back of you vs coming off your waist in front of you. It looked like it would certainly be more comfortable to hang in, but it still has the draw back typical of other vests with the strap in back of you if you fall.


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## Koorsboom (Dec 13, 2008)

> Do you think that a harness sold as part of a treestand can be coverted into this type of harness by removing the shoulder straps?


Does anybody have an opinion regarding my question above?

And please educate me ... what is a rabbit runner?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

stanlh said:


> I wondered if ascenders would be a choice for climbing up to a stand, but are ascenders hard on the rope? Don't some have metal teeth?


Ascenders do have teeth that bite the rope...but they do not damage the sheeth at all. Ascenders are used to climb fixed ropes under the climbers full weight. You can ascend up a rope thousands of times with no adverse effects to the rope. When just using an ascender for safety sake...there is literally no wear on the rope.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

Koorsboom said:


> Does anybody have an opinion regarding my question above?
> 
> And please educate me ... what is a rabbit runner?


I doubt it since a climbing harness is specifically adjustable and secured at the waist. Climbing harnesses are cheap compared to an HSS or similar hunting specific harnesses.
I believe a rabbit runner is a daisy chain...but not 100% sure on that.


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## toec (Mar 12, 2011)

And now, for some levity...
v
v
v
v
v
v
wait for it...
v
v
v
v
v
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rnmfHtEYaA&feature=related

Don't ask, just tryin' to be helpful...:wink:
****e You come across on Youtube...
No, I have nothing to do with the "raptor", I have just found the vid...hmmm...appealing. 

Shows off the freedom of the climbing harness and provides answers to some of the concerns voiced in this here thread...

...which is waay helpful in more ways than one. Thanx ALL! Also a junior Tree Saddle climber, always looking for pointers.


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## mtsrunner (Oct 20, 2007)

Koorsboom said:


> Does anybody have an opinion regarding my question above?
> 
> And please educate me ... what is a rabbit runner?


I cut the shoulder straps off of my Loggy Bayou harness (since bought by Muddy), and I think it functions just as a climbing harness would. BUT...I did so at my own risk. I hardly ever use this because I am in my Tree Saddle most of the time. If I am not in my saddle I am usually in a cushy shooting house (I am getting soft in my old age).


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

toec said:


> And now, for some levity...
> v
> v
> v
> ...


Very informative! LOL! 

FYI, this video is not what you are expecting, but there are climbing harnesses in it! I'm not sure if they are being used for their intended purposes!


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Koorsboom said:


> Does anybody have an opinion regarding my question above?
> 
> And please educate me ... what is a rabbit runner?


Here is a link to a rabbit runner: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/rabbit_runner_sling.html

As for your question about modifying a harness, I would error on the side of caution and buy a harness instead of modifying one.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

Bought the setup that stl described. Love it! Thanks!

I did make a small adjustment in fastening to the tree with a looped climbing rope that I can knot wherever I want to tie off, but that is it. Love the BD Alpine Bod.


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## Claydoh (Feb 15, 2011)

So how would you rig a linemans belt to a climbing harness? I got the hunting part of rig but need tips on a rig to hang stands with. Thanks.


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## Claydoh (Feb 15, 2011)

Nevermind, I learned to read and found the answer.  This is a great thread. Bowhunters didn't invent falling, rock climbers did.


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## Koorsboom (Dec 13, 2008)

> and I think it functions just as a climbing harness would. BUT...I did so at my own risk


The harness I got with my Mellineum also fastens around the waist with straps around my legs so I cannot see why there should be a problem. If I rig it so that I am not going to fall but almost only sit down in it should I loose my ballance I am sure there shouldn't be an issue. And yes, at my own risk ...

Just to put everybody else's minds at ease ... I am shopping around for a suitable climbing harness as well :wink:


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

I made the switch this year to a rock harness and love it. I exchanged a few pm's with STL when this thread started last winter, and also with Houser52 a few weeks ago, and got some really good advice on what equipment to use. Definitely a smart upgrade, and very cost effective.


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## scottparker (Mar 31, 2006)

Claydoh said:


> So how would you rig a linemans belt to a climbing harness? I got the hunting part of rig but need tips on a rig to hang stands with. Thanks.


I rig my lineman belt to the main front anchor point


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## Fdale's Finest (Oct 19, 2007)

Could this be used like a TreeSadle treestand in addition to a safety belt? Also can you attach a linemens belt to the side loops? I don't know if this would cut off the circulation. I just trust the rock climbing stuff more due to these companies history of making things that keep the climbers safe.



houser52 said:


> I've posted these pics in other threads but here's what my harness setup looks like when I'm hunting.
> 
> While at rest
> 
> ...


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Fdale-
I've never used or seen a tree saddle but if you're going to use a climbing harness as a tree saddle, you'd probably want a harness with heavier leg padding since you'll be hanging all or most of the time. The one's made for hanging for long periods of time are called "Big Wall" harnesses with extra padding on the legs and waist.

The side gear loops and rear haul loop are not for supporting your weight. They're for hanging stuff off of. They won't hold you if you fall!


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## Nameless Hunter (Feb 10, 2007)

houser52 said:


> Fdale-
> I've never used or seen a tree saddle but if you're going to use a climbing harness as a tree saddle, you'd probably want a harness with heavier leg padding since you'll be hanging all or most of the time. The one's made for hanging for long periods of time are called "Big Wall" harnesses with extra padding on the legs and waist.
> 
> The side gear loops and rear haul loop are not for supporting your weight. They're for hanging stuff off of. They won't hold you if you fall!


Quoting a review from another site on comfy climbing harnesses...
"I later got the Metolius Waldo, and man, it's like plopping your fat wide ass down in soft downy feathers even as you are hanging on it all day long..."
Sounds like a winner to me.


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

What model do you recommend for us guys that could stand to lose a couple of pounds? The Alpine Bod appears to max out at 37" waist. I should be below that, but that is another discussion . Need something for 38-40" waist. Thanks to all on this thread.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

One eye said:


> What model do you recommend for us guys that could stand to lose a couple of pounds? The Alpine Bod appears to max out at 37" waist. I should be below that, but that is another discussion . Need something for 38-40" waist. Thanks to all on this thread.




Here's a few that I found that fits a 38" or more.

Petzl Aspir
ABC Guide Harness
Black Diamond Couloir ( Similar to the Alpine Bod and Bod )
Trango Cosmic Harness
Edelweiss Challange Harness
Black Diamond Momentum AL


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## bsizzle (Jun 22, 2005)

just want to say that i have used the black diamon alpine bod for about a week now and it is awesome. super light and insanely comfortable, i don't even know i have it on. i hook up with a linesman rope with a prussic knot/carabiner. i keep just enough slack for it to tighten up as i turn 180 degrees to my left. this allows my to have slack and unrestricted movement if i have to turn to the right and make a shot. i do this b/c i don't have to turn my body to make a shot the left as i am right handed. i also cut the side loops off of my harness. i saw no need for them.


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## stl (Oct 29, 2009)

Hey guys, I moved this year from the Midwest to the Rocky Mountains - where no one uses tree stands... So I hadn't checked in on this thread in many, many moons. 

I'm glad to see many of you have gone to a lighter, less complicated and safer harness system. Good for you!


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## bsizzle (Jun 22, 2005)

stl said:


> Hey guys, I moved this year from the Midwest to the Rocky Mountains - where no one uses tree stands... So I hadn't checked in on this thread in many, many moons.
> 
> I'm glad to see many of you have gone to a lighter, less complicated and safer harness system. Good for you!


thanks for starting this. i love my new harness. in fact, this evening i had to make a shot off to my right hand side in the stand. it was a piece of cake with not having to worry about the traditional harness belt restricting my draw arm.


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## davs2601 (Feb 6, 2008)

I am interested in moving to a rock climbing system, but I was noticing that there are loops on the side where you would typically hook up a linemans rope. Are those structural and load bearing or are they for bringing up ropes and carabiners?


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## D3TH_OVRH3D (Sep 23, 2010)

Posting so I can come back later...


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

davs2601 said:


> I am interested in moving to a rock climbing system, but I was noticing that there are loops on the side where you would typically hook up a linemans rope. Are those structural and load bearing or are they for bringing up ropes and carabiners?


Those loops are for accessories. I think I read that guys are hooking both ends of the lineman belt to the front connection point.


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## stormsearch (Sep 29, 2006)

davs2601 said:


> I am interested in moving to a rock climbing system, but I was noticing that there are loops on the side where you would typically hook up a linemans rope. Are those structural and load bearing or are they for bringing up ropes and carabiners?


They are not for any load bearing connections, gear loops only.


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## davs2601 (Feb 6, 2008)

Good deal. I hadnt thought to just use the center connection. Thanks


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## matlocc (Sep 29, 2009)

I switched over last weekend using a rock climbing harness and a 15 foot piece of climbing rope tied with figure 8 knots and it is way more comfortable and allows much more movement. I only have about 8 foot of rope to work with after the knots and end stops. I highly recommend this!


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## SurfArrows (Sep 27, 2011)

I switched over after this thread and i could not be more happy. I forget im wearing the climbing harness it is that comfortable. I also have unrestricted movement in the tree, when turning in at direction. The hunting harness always was in the way, and if you did fall, your falling facing away from the tree, not major deal, but inconvenient. Also the price is a no brainer. You can get a rock climbing harness for a 1/3 of the price of the high end hunting ones.


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

Are you guys wearing these under or over your outer camo layer of clothes? I was ready to order the Couloir, but I can only find at Moosejaw and it is only available in orange.


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## Fdale's Finest (Oct 19, 2007)

houser52 said:


> I've posted these pics in other threads but here's what my harness setup looks like when I'm hunting.
> 
> While at rest
> 
> ...


What is stopping me from using my safety rope and prussic and connecting it directly to the front of the harness? Is there some advantage I am not seeing using the flat strap vs the safety rope?


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Fdale's Finest said:


> What is stopping me from using my safety rope and prussic and connecting it directly to the front of the harness? Is there some advantage I am not seeing using the flat strap vs the safety rope?


Extra length? My tree strap isn't very long, so the rabbit runner will give me more freedom to move around.


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## aubie515 (Oct 19, 2005)

Ost


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## davs2601 (Feb 6, 2008)

I stopped by Backwoods in Norman Ok today. They have everything that I will need to put together my setup and at the same prices advertised on the net. Thanks again for bringing this topic up


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## Nitro1970 (Jan 26, 2009)

Where y'all guys getting the ropes?


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## davs2601 (Feb 6, 2008)

Here in Oklahoma you can get them any palce that sells climbing equipment. Make sure it is load bearing and intended for climbing purposes. I got mine at Backwoods. If you cant find a place you may call your local Fire Dept and ask if they have someone local they buy theirs from.



Nitro1970 said:


> Where y'all guys getting the ropes?


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## Nitro1970 (Jan 26, 2009)

Will this stuff work? http://www.acmeclimbing.com/bluewaterassaultline11mmolivedrab.aspx
What about this (size) for a prussic? http://www.acmeclimbing.com/bluewaterperlonaccessorycord.aspx


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## davs2601 (Feb 6, 2008)

A buddy has mine right now, but ill measure it as soon as i can


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## bow4bulls (Aug 2, 2010)

I climb trees with saddles and use a navaho when hanging my tree stands. Safe,lite, and secure. Most saddles are designed to be attached to the D ring on the front so you would have a twist when you fell from the treestand w/one on. Something is better than nothing.
I now wear a gorilla full body and it's light. I do secure myself to the tree with a 36" daisy chain when in my chain ups.
When using a climber I carry 18' of 10mm climbing line and tie in with a blakes hitch so it you fall you can put pressure on the top of the knot and slowly desend.


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## tbassfd (Jul 26, 2008)

ttt


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

bow4bulls said:


> I climb trees with saddles and use a navaho when hanging my tree stands. Safe,lite, and secure. Most saddles are designed to be attached to the D ring on the front so you would have a twist when you fell from the treestand w/one on. Something is better than nothing.
> I now wear a gorilla full body and it's light. I do secure myself to the tree with a 36" daisy chain when in my chain ups.
> When using a climber I carry 18' of 10mm climbing line and tie in with a blakes hitch so it you fall you can put pressure on the top of the knot and slowly desend.


Could you provide a detailed description of how you use the blake's hitch to descend slowly? How is it different than the prusik which if pulled at the top can release and drop rapidly.


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## Nitro1970 (Jan 26, 2009)

Do I want static or dynamic ropes??


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## Whispers Death (Oct 6, 2005)

For what? Climbing up the tree? Used as a lanyard or tether to the tree? With the relatively short distances we are dealing with in tree climbing, the shock absorption of a dynamic rope is limited....especially a 4 or 5 foot tie in to a tree. I would use static rope...(life rated) and limit the drape to as short a distance as possible. No slack if you can help it or you will get the snap of your life in a fall.

Whispers Death


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## Nitro1970 (Jan 26, 2009)

Whispers Death said:


> For what? Climbing up the tree? Used as a lanyard or tether to the tree? With the relatively short distances we are dealing with in tree climbing, the shock absorption of a dynamic rope is limited....especially a 4 or 5 foot tie in to a tree. I would use static rope...(life rated) and limit the drape to as short a distance as possible. No slack if you can help it or you will get the snap of your life in a fall.
> 
> Whispers Death


Both climbing and tethering but you answered my question. Thanks


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Nitro1970 said:


> Do I want static or dynamic ropes??


I asked this same question, static or dynamic rope, and the rock climbing guru on here told me that I did not need dynamic rope, that static rope would work just fine for the kind of shock a rope used in a tree stand will be subject to. He said dynamic ropes are made to withstand a "lead fall" which I guess is something like a rock climber falling from an anchor point and going some distance before his rope catches him. He said a static rope, which is usually less expensive, would be fine for tree stand hunting, either one would work. Not my words, but advice from an expert.


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## netfan (Dec 26, 2010)

As a new hunter and an old climber (many years rappelling and climbing - teaching both to adults and children for several years) it seemed natural to me to use the same equipment for a safety harness when using my tree stand. I will try to get some shots to post at some point, but wanted to add this for starters:

There has been an explosion over the past several years in businesses that provide "zip line", "ropes course" and "climbing wall" experiences for all ages. These organizations are in a position where they need to rotate out "old" equipment from time to time. Even though a harness may be in perfect working order, they need to retire the harness due to "age" or "falls" or some other variable. I picked up a perfectly good harness for free that I have been using for my safety when using a climber tree stand. Depending on where you live, you may get lucky by inquiring at these types of businesses.


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## Nitro1970 (Jan 26, 2009)

netfan said:


> As a new hunter and an old climber (many years rappelling and climbing - teaching both to adults and children for several years) it seemed natural to me to use the same equipment for a safety harness when using my tree stand. I will try to get some shots to post at some point, but wanted to add this for starters:
> 
> There has been an explosion over the past several years in businesses that provide "zip line", "ropes course" and "climbing wall" experiences for all ages. These organizations are in a position where they need to rotate out "old" equipment from time to time. Even though a harness may be in perfect working order, they need to retire the harness due to "age" or "falls" or some other variable. I picked up a perfectly good harness for free that I have been using for my safety when using a climber tree stand. Depending on where you live, you may get lucky by inquiring at these types of businesses.


Exactly who I'm fixin to call and hopefully he has some ready to be retired.


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## JVA (Dec 12, 2011)

I have work in construction for many years now on some of the tallest building around, the only way to get to my work is by rope access climbing. A rope access climber will only where a climbing harness with a front connection point. I wear a full body harness by the connection point is in the front, a rear style connection point harness is for working on the edge of the building not out side the building. also on a construction site there are lots of people around to pull you back in the building if you were to fall. Rope access work is always performed outside the building. Go to you tube and type in rope access you will quickly see how safe these climbing harness really are. In a climbing harness you don't have the leg trauma problems as a tradition hunting harness. I have read lots of reports about people dieing in there harness from leg trauma.


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## Mr.1 Shot (Jun 22, 2010)

The answer is here boy's ... 20 Feet Up... I got mine last week and love it ! I started a thread on it here ...





























http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1637784 

Did I say I LOVE LOVE LOVE it ?

http://20feetup.com/Home_Page.php


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

houser52 said:


> Here's a few that I found that fits a 38" or more.
> 
> Petzl Aspir
> ABC Guide Harness
> ...


Thanks Houser for making this list for big guys. When it gets cold outside you have to put on the extra clothes to sit still in the stand and all of a sudden instead of a 38 you need a size 40 or more harness. Are there any that go that large or larger?


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

I know these three will because I have the ABC Guide and have lots of room left with all my heavy clothes on. The other two are made similar. 
Check them out online.

ABC Guide Harness
Trango Cosmic Harness
Edelweiss Challange Harness


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

houser52 said:


> I know these three will because I have the ABC Guide and have lots of room left with all my heavy clothes on. The other two are made similar.
> Check them out online.
> 
> ABC Guide Harness
> ...


Thanks Houser, now, do any of these have quick connect/disconnect leg loops or waist belt? I have looked at the web pages, but hard to tell since I am not familiar with this type of equip.


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## BOWCHIEF (Oct 6, 2006)

tagged for later


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

stanlh said:


> Thanks Houser, now, do any of these have quick connect/disconnect leg loops or waist belt? I have looked at the web pages, but hard to tell since I am not familiar with this type of equip.


None of those have quick connect buckles like my HSS but I can still put my ABC harness on in about a minute. Never really timed it but it's not that hard or too slow. 
Even though they're nice, one thing about those quick release leg buckles on my HSS ultra lite is that they're right between my legs and they clang together whenever I'm walking. I don't have that problem with the ABC.


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## jmak (Aug 7, 2008)

This one has "The 3SO buckle system that is easy to use and doesn't require doubling back" 

http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=443130


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## 20 Feet Up (Sep 21, 2009)

Hi guys and girls, Im Mike with 20 Feet Up and we are a new sponsor here at AT. What a thread you guys have here! You all have covered so much in this tread there is not much to add, so I will be brief.

We started out the company with our patented Quick Climb system and branched into offering a complete (rock style) hunting harness system. It wasn't very difficult deciding to use to this type of harness after hanging in a rear attach harness. This style harness offers so much more comfort, especially in the event of a fall, while greatly reducing the risk of suspension trauma which is associated to rear attach harnesses. So we decided to introduce a NEW option and complete system designed for hunters, but it all comes down to what YOU feel comfortable and safe in.


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

*Lineman's belt mod*

I make a modification to my climbing harness to better accommodate the use of a lineman's belt for hanging sticks and stands.

You can see the description and photos in the DIY section here:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1646767&p=1062769062#post1062769062

Mitch


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

There have been several questions from folks wanting to know how the Prusik or Blake's Hitch will allow a climber to descend after a fall. Basically you would use a suitable length of climbing rope wrapped around the trunk of the tree above the treestand and secured by a knot or carabiner to itself, with the "tail" reaching all the way to the ground. (This life line must reach the ground to successfully use it as a descending line otherwise you will fall when you reach "the end of your rope".) The Blake's Hitch attached to the life line is slid either up or down the life line while climbing up or down the ladder steps. In the event of a fall and you can't get back onto the stand or onto the steps for whatever reason, you just grab the Prusik or Blake's hitch and pull down on it and it allows you to make a controlled descent. Check out these videos for how to tie and use the knots. The video with the 4' orange rope tying the Blake's Hitch would be how you would attach the line to yourself to the front of your climbing saddle. There are many other videos on how to tie to carabiners and such. The ISA videos are some of the best for instructional purposes.


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

I like this harness better. If you are wearing heavy hunting clothing this is easier to put on since you are not having to jump through a loop on both legs. Easy on and easy off. $46 delivered is what I paid.


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## c.sitas (Dec 29, 2010)

You know, they could be many reasons you fall. One thing for sure, if you pass out or have some kind of attack and go down. I would not want to be belted to my front midsection.If the attack or what ever didn't kill you, I'd be willing to bet hanging upside down would. If supported behind the neck,something else will have to kill you because hanging in an upright position won't take you out as fast. I'm fairly sure this is true.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

c.sitas said:


> You know, they could be many reasons you fall. One thing for sure, if you pass out or have some kind of attack and go down. I would not want to be belted to my front midsection.If the attack or what ever didn't kill you, I'd be willing to bet hanging upside down would. If supported behind the neck,something else will have to kill you because hanging in an upright position won't take you out as fast. I'm fairly sure this is true.


Rock climbers fall all the time. They don't end up upside down.


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## c.sitas (Dec 29, 2010)

the reason none of these climbers ever fell and never landed upside down is they still had use of thier faculties. If you had an attack or passed out ,the out come might be different.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Stab 'em said:


> There have been several questions from folks wanting to know how the Prusik or Blake's Hitch will allow a climber to descend after a fall. Basically you would use a suitable length of climbing rope wrapped around the trunk of the tree above the treestand and secured by a knot or carabiner to itself, with the "tail" reaching all the way to the ground. (This life line must reach the ground to successfully use it as a descending line otherwise you will fall when you reach "the end of your rope".) The Blake's Hitch attached to the life line is slid either up or down the life line while climbing up or down the ladder steps. In the event of a fall and you can't get back onto the stand or onto the steps for whatever reason, you just grab the Prusik or Blake's hitch and pull down on it and it allows you to make a controlled descent. Check out these videos for how to tie and use the knots. The video with the 4' orange rope tying the Blake's Hitch would be how you would attach the line to yourself to the front of your climbing saddle. There are many other videos on how to tie to carabiners and such. The ISA videos are some of the best for instructional purposes.


Thanks for this information, but you have not described how to descend slowly in a controlled manner using the prusik or the blakes knot. The warnings on the prusik say don't grab the top of the knot or it will loosen and you will descend/fall quickly. So how, step by step, do you descend using a blakes knot without descending too fast?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

ab2 said:


> I like this harness better. If you are wearing heavy hunting clothing this is easier to put on since you are not having to jump through a loop on both legs. Easy on and easy off. $46 delivered is what I paid.
> 
> View attachment 1233483


What do you mean by "you don't have to jump through a loop on both legs" ? It would seem from the instructions on this harness that you do have to step into the leg loops.


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## stormsearch (Sep 29, 2006)

c.sitas said:


> the reason none of these climbers ever fell and never landed upside down is they still had use of thier faculties. If you had an attack or passed out ,the out come might be different.


Let me guess, you never have worn one and obviously have not read the entire thread? I have and to get upside down, I have to pull my legs up above me while pulling on the lifeline. The belay loop attachment in front of you supports above your balance point. The belt is tightened above your waste line and my connection point is above my belly button by at least 2 - 3".

For an emergency descent, use two prusik knots and loops. Attach to the top one and if ever have a fall, use the bottom attachment as a foot hold. Take the weight off top prusik knot slide it down, pull your foot out. Then lower the bottom knot. The bottom loop should be big enough to insert your boot.

For ascending, most guys tie off the bottom of the life line to the base of the tree or bottom of a set of climbing sticks. I weight down my lifeline with my pack and bow and that is what I haul them up in the tree when I get up there. That way, it is easier during a fall to pull the rope up to you if ever allow the second prusik knot to fall to bottom. It is also easier to lower the second prusik further other than arms length.


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

stanlh said:


> What do you mean by "you don't have to jump through a loop on both legs" ? It would seem from the instructions on this harness that you do have to step into the leg loops.


Look at the buckle on the leg and waist, they come apart. When you have winter hunting boots and overalls with a bulky jacket for cold temps, trying to thread your leg through the loop and playing a balancing game isn't convenient. I like this harness better. Easy on and easy off. The 20 feet up harness doesn't have this feature.


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## wvboy (Sep 8, 2003)

If you fall while secured to your lifeline with a Prusik and can't get back onto the stand or onto the steps you will NOT be able to descend. Once weighted, the prusik will not release. There are other friction hitches (VT, Blakes, etc) that will release when pulled down. While it's not good practice to descend solely on one of these hitches, in an emergency situation, like a fall, they would get you to the ground. Just be mindful of the high heat that can be generated on the hitch while descending. Be careful out there!


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

ab2 said:


> I like this harness better. If you are wearing heavy hunting clothing this is easier to put on since you are not having to jump through a loop on both legs. Easy on and easy off. $46 delivered is what I paid.
> 
> View attachment 1233483


I like that harness and looked at it before buying mine. How does it feel while wearing? How is the distance from the waist to the leg loops(rise)? Can you wear it with the waist belt at or about your belly button and be comfortable in the leg/ groin area?
I didn't know that the buckles came apart. If I knew that I probably would have ordered one to try.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

ab2 said:


> Look at the buckle on the leg and waist, they come apart. When you have winter hunting boots and overalls with a bulky jacket for cold temps, trying to thread your leg through the loop and playing a balancing game isn't convenient. I like this harness better. Easy on and easy off. The 20 feet up harness doesn't have this feature.


Great, that is the info. I was looking for. It appeared as though that is how this black diamond harness is made, but without seeing one in the flesh I could only assume. Thank you for your input. I will be getting one of these.


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

My tree spider harness is just as compact if not more so than your rock climbing setup. I just like the shoulder straps and the anchor being between my shoulder blades.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

91bravo said:


> My tree spider harness is just as compact if not more so than your rock climbing setup. I just like the shoulder straps and the anchor being between my shoulder blades.


Just for discussion...

Have you tried hanging from both? I have and I can say that hanging from my HSS and being tetherd in the rear is like a turtle on his back. It was very hard to maneuver being tied in in the rear whereas being tied in the front I could get to my steps/stand easily or use prussic loops for self rescue.


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

stormsearch said:


> Let me guess, you never have worn one and obviously have not read the entire thread? I have and to get upside down, I have to pull my legs up above me while pulling on the lifeline. The belay loop attachment in front of you supports above your balance point. The belt is tightened above your waste line and my connection point is above my belly button by at least 2 - 3".


But you were able to do it because you had your faculties...Take some sleeping pills and then fall out of your treestand...


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Quicksliver said:


> But you were able to do it because you had your faculties...Take some sleeping pills and then fall out of your treestand...


I don't want to start an argument, but have you ever fallen wearing a rock climbing harness?

I have, many times, and I have NEVER ended up upside down. When you are taking a small lead climbing fall of 6-8 feet, you don't magically right yourself like a cat on the way down. Rather, you fall completely out of control and yet end up with your head up and your feet down. Why, well because the hook point on a rock climbing harness is above your center of gravity which mean when you hang from it, the lower part of your body is heavier and thus goes down. 

Even if you ended up upside down, when properly worn, a rock climbing harness still will not come off. 

Conscious or unconscious, sleeping pills or not, you are going to land right side up in a rock climbing harness. Plus, since the harness will put you in a light "seated" position, there should be less pressure on the upper inside of your legs, thus slowing suspension trauma and INCREASING your chance of survival.

Mitch


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

The black diamond harness with the quick release is much easier to use and seems to be better quality. The buckles work similar to that of the summit tree stand seating. I like this type of harness better because it doesn't put weight on your shoulder like the harness that you wear on your shoulder and back. You will not end upside down on this harness. I got plenty of straps to tether on to the tree from the black diamond harness so my over all cost was $50 bucks if that.


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## Michigan Man (Oct 30, 2006)

I have practiced jumping off my treestand ( at a low height ) with my full body harness and my rock climbing harness. There is a big difference between the two. With the full body harness there was a lot of pressure on my legs and I knew I wouldn't be able to last long. With the rock climbing harness there was hardly any pressure on my legs and I felt like I could hang there for awhile. Also you can put your feet against the tree and kinda rest a little bit. I feel that if I fell out of my lock-on or slipped off of my sticks I would be able to get back on. Let's hear some ways of getting safely down to the ground if you fell out of your climber and could not get back on to your treestand.


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## buckrut5 (Jun 28, 2010)

ab2 said:


> I like this harness better. If you are wearing heavy hunting clothing this is easier to put on since you are not having to jump through a loop on both legs. Easy on and easy off. $46 delivered is what I paid.
> 
> View attachment 1233483


Good lookin harness, what model is it?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

buckrut5 said:


> Good lookin harness, what model is it?


It is a Black diamond Vario


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

BLACK DIAMOND Vario Speed Climbing Harness


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Michigan Man said:


> I have practiced jumping off my treestand ( at a low height ) with my full body harness and my rock climbing harness. There is a big difference between the two. With the full body harness there was a lot of pressure on my legs and I knew I wouldn't be able to last long. With the rock climbing harness there was hardly any pressure on my legs and I felt like I could hang there for awhile. Also you can put your feet against the tree and kinda rest a little bit. I feel that if I fell out of my lock-on or slipped off of my sticks I would be able to get back on. Let's hear some ways of getting safely down to the ground if you fell out of your climber and could not get back on to your treestand.


Other than having a full length lifeline....

There is a thread around here titled something like "climbing without sticks" 
All you should need is about 10 feet of 1" tubular webbing. Basically you tie a small loop in one end and a big loop in the other end. Wrap the strap around the tree and put the big loop through the little loop. Once you tighten it round the tree, you can put your foot in the big loop and stand up just enough to take the weight off your harness. Slide your harness tree strap down and sit back on your harness. Now you can slide your foot strap down. Repeat until you are at the ground. 
There are guys using the method (slightly more sophisticated) to do all of their climbing, but 10' of 1" webbing rolls up into about a 4-5" coil and fits nice in a caro pocket. Plus you can double duty for things like dragging your deer out.

Mitch


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## Michigan Man (Oct 30, 2006)

Mitch, I guess that would work. I tried the two prussik way of repelling down a life line and I was pretty tired by the time I got down to the ground. I tried another method and it worked really good. You have to have a full length lifeline connected to the tree just you would with a lock-on. Imagine you fell off your climber and you are just hanging there, not able to get back on.You take a rock climbing device called a figure 8 and run a bite of line below your prussik through the top hole of the figure 8 and around the bottom hole. You then hook up the figure 8 with a carabiner to your harness and take the line behind your back and hang on. Now comes the fun part. You cut your prussik with a knife. You would think you would drop like a rock but you don't. Actually you have to surge the line through the figure 8 to start the repel. You can controll your desent very easy. It sounds crazy but it works. I have a pouch on my harness to carry the figure 8, my knife, and extra carabiner. All three are tied with shoe laces to my harness harness so that if I dropped them I won't loose them.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Here's a link to a video of the way I can get down if I can't get back on to the stand or reach my steps. In the video the girl is using ascenders but I use prussic cord loops for my hand and foot loops. The ATC belay device is fairly inexpensive. The Black Diamond ATC Sport I have was about $15.
I have practiced (low to the ground) this way of getting down several times and it's not that hard and doesn't take long to do it. A lot less time than waiting on somebody to come get me, if they can even find me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLaw6xSdsuE


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## meatrocket (Jan 19, 2004)

I have used my climbing harness as fall protection before while hunting with a firearm. I find that it gets in the way of my bow otherwise. I like how a full body harness hooks to the safety line in the rear instead of in the front and in my way. I agree with the OP that rock climbing harness have a very proven design. I have watched a harness safe a person on many occasions, myself included. Great advice on using the prussic to descend or even a belay device. The main point here is to NEVER get into your tree without some sort of fall protection!


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## Palegabe (Jul 25, 2009)

I have a SOP harness and use it, but it is not perfect by any means. When worn outside my clothes I cannot access my shirt or coat pockets because of the sholder straps. This forces me carry in some sort of pack to hold items that could easily be stored in my pockets (bow holder, knife, binnoculars, range finder, cell phone, walkie talkie, wallet, tags, gloves, release, etc.) If you wear the SOP under your coat I cannot wear my parka hood because of the tether strap (rough in the cold). The SOP is also 4lbs. Having a 3lb less harness with no sholder straps solves the weight, pocket, pack, and hood problems. This seems like a no brainer in my book. Of course not everyone packs in every hunt like I do. When packing in, every oz counts on public land.


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Michigan Man & houser 52

There are many ways to decent from a tree given that you have a full length lifeline in place, 2 prusiks, figure 8, double carabiner friction ... Yes, they can be a lot of work and expel a lot of energy, but remember, you are not planning on doing this every time you go out. This is an emergency backup system, and as long as it is safe, I would personally opt for whatever safe option requires me to carry less equipment, even if it is more work if I do ever have to use it.

If I had a lot of permanent stands, I would probably consider outfitting them with full length lifelines and then carry a figure 8 in my pocket. 

I pack my stand in and out almost everywhere I hunt which means if I wanted to use a full length lifeline, I would need to carry 30' of an 11mm line in and out every time, and only use it in an emergency. That would be a LOT of extra work, thus 10' of a 1" webbing (even tho using it would be a lot more work) is a more practical solution for me.

Mitch


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## buckrut5 (Jun 28, 2010)

ab2 said:


> BLACK DIAMOND Vario Speed Climbing Harness[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks.....


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## Michigan Man (Oct 30, 2006)

Mitch, I'll have to pick up some webbing and give that 2 loop method a try. Lord knows I'm all about carrying less crap out in the woods. What kind of knots are you using to make up the 2 loops?


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Michigan Man said:


> Mitch, I'll have to pick up some webbing and give that 2 loop method a try. Lord knows I'm all about carrying less crap out in the woods. What kind of knots are you using to make up the 2 loops?


The method of descending (and climbing) can be found here:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1626624&highlight=Mitch
I know there are a lot of posts, but there is some very good information and links to products, videos, etc.

There are a couple different ways to tie the knot that I have been using in my webbing. I would call it a slightly modified water knot, which is used to join two pieces of webbing. In my case, tho I'm joining two ends of the same piece which forms a loop. (leaving one tail very long which basically means the loop is at one end) ... if that helps picture it at all.

-You can just fold the last foot or so of the strap over and tie and overhand knot to form the loop. Just make sure you leave the short tail long enough so it doesn't pull out.

-The other way to tie the same knot that works really well if you want to tie the loop with something fixed inside it or around a fixed object is to tie an overhand knot about 2 feet from the end and leave it loose. Now, take that 2 feet and go around whatever you need to and back to the knot you first tied. Finally, lay the end of the 2 foot tail right next to where it came out of the first knot and re-trace itself back through the knot. When you are done, the tail should come out the other side of the knot right next to the main line.

Again, I take NO responsibility for the outcome of anyone trying these methods. 
Make sure your materials are strong enough to handle not only your static weight, but all forces generated in a fall. Understand that knots cause materials to fail at lower forces. Always test your system at low heights.

Mitch


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## Quicksliver (Nov 22, 2006)

practice-more said:


> I don't want to start an argument, but have you ever fallen wearing a rock climbing harness?
> 
> I have, many times, and I have NEVER ended up upside down. When you are taking a small lead climbing fall of 6-8 feet, you don't magically right yourself like a cat on the way down. Rather, you fall completely out of control and yet end up with your head up and your feet down. Why, well because the hook point on a rock climbing harness is above your center of gravity which mean when you hang from it, the lower part of your body is heavier and thus goes down.
> 
> ...


My post was sarcasm, hence the  I actually bought the setup that stl recommended. Love it. People jump in here and make dumb statements without having read or even thought about what they're talking about. They think their harness that came with a treestand is safer than one that has years of fall experience designed into it.


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

Quicksliver said:


> My post was sarcasm, hence the  I actually bought the setup that stl recommended. Love it. People jump in here and make dumb statements without having read or even thought about what they're talking about. They think their harness that came with a treestand is safer than one that has years of fall experience designed into it.


My apologies, I didn't catch the sarcasm. There are so many guys saying you can and you can't that I'm not able to keep them strait any more.

I'm glad your rock climbing harness is working out for you and no hard feelings?

Shoot strait and hang upright,

Mitch


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

To clairify on the Blake's Hitch knot a little, it is a tree climbing knot that is used to ascend and descend on a life line while climbing around in a tree. We literally hang around on our lifelines with that knot for hours at a time in some trees while trimming them. This is the only knot you need attached to the lifeline from your harness. You don't need to carry two pieces of rope with figure eight knots in them, a carabiner, or a knife in survival kit form in your pocket. With a 4' piece of climbing line, you simply tie the Blake's Hitch knot to the lifeline while on the ground and slide it up the rope as you climb up the ladder. (The other end being securely tied to a carabiner with a double fisherman's knot that clips onto the front loop of your harness.) Once your on the stand simply push the knot up to a comfortable level on the lifeline and then pull down on that "bridge" line while pulling up on the "tail" a little to set and lock the Blake's Hitch knot in place on the lifeline. In the event of a fall the knot will hold you in place, then you either climb back onto the stand or pull down on the top of the Blake's Hitch to control your descent to the ground. I hope this helps you guys understand how we use these knots and how you too can use them to get yourself to safety in the unlikely event of a fall.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g2coRRd0gI

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2h3AtQnykY


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Stab 'em said:


> To clairify on the Blake's Hitch knot a little, it is a tree climbing knot that is used to ascend and descend on a life line while climbing around in a tree. We literally hang around on our lifelines with that knot for hours at a time in some trees while trimming them. This is the only knot you need attached to the lifeline from your harness. You don't need to carry two pieces of rope with figure eight knots in them, a carabiner, or a knife in survival kit form in your pocket. With a 4' piece of climbing line, you simply tie the Blake's Hitch knot to the lifeline while on the ground and slide it up the rope as you climb up the ladder. (The other end being securely tied to a carabiner with a double fisherman's knot that clips onto the front loop of your harness.) Once your on the stand simply push the knot up to a comfortable level on the lifeline and then pull down on that "bridge" line while pulling up on the "tail" a little to set and lock the Blake's Hitch knot in place on the lifeline. In the event of a fall the knot will hold you in place, then you either climb back onto the stand or pull down on the top of the Blake's Hitch to control your descent to the ground. I hope this helps you guys understand how we use these knots and how you too can use them to get yourself to safety in the unlikely event of a fall.
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g2coRRd0gI
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2h3AtQnykY


So you are saying that after a fall, by pulling downward on the top of the blakes hitch knot you can descend the lifeline in a controlled manner, is that correct? Is that a way in which the blakes hitch differs from the prusik? Is there a video or photographic example of someone doing this type of descent with the blakes hitch?


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

stanlh said:


> So you are saying that after a fall, by pulling downward on the top of the blakes hitch knot you can descend the lifeline in a controlled manner, is that correct? Is that a way in which the blakes hitch differs from the prusik? Is there a video or photographic example of someone doing this type of descent with the blakes hitch?


Yes, you can use the Blake's Hitch to descend after a fall, so long as it does not lock up on you. The Blake's is one of the least likely of knots to lock up if they are "dressed" and "set" as they are run up and down the lifeline. The Prusik is likely to lock up on the first drop and would need you to stand up to take the pressure off the knot to "undress" it a little so it could be used to descend you if need be. If you get into a situation where you can't take the pressure off the Prusik to undress it then it couldn't be used to lower you down easily and therefore the Blake's Hitch would be the better choice of knot. Check out these videos of climbers testing the strength of them with a 180# boulder. 

www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=BxxLD1TT4NI

I would descend from every morning hunt by using the Blake's hitch rather than going down my tree steps, that is how much this knot is trusted in industry; I also climb trees for a living. The links below show how you pull down on the knot to control your descent. It is somewhat shown at 1:42 and again at 2:40 when the guy pulls down on the knot.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2h3AtQnykY


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Stab 'em said:


> Yes, you can use the Blake's Hitch to descend after a fall, so long as it does not lock up on you. The Blake's is one of the least likely of knots to lock up if they are "dressed" and "set" as they are run up and down the lifeline. The Prusik is likely to lock up on the first drop and would need you to stand up to take the pressure off the knot to "undress" it a little so it could be used to descend you if need be. If you get into a situation where you can't take the pressure off the Prusik to undress it then it couldn't be used to lower you down easily and therefore the Blake's Hitch would be the better choice of knot. Check out these videos of climbers testing the strength of them with a 180# boulder.
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=BxxLD1TT4NI
> 
> ...


What size rope is used for the blakes hitch if my lifeline is 11 mm? Is 11 mm a correct size for a life line to be used in conjunction with a blakes hitch or does it not matter?


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

I use 7mm cord for my prussics.
The larger 8mm cord can also be used but it may not grab as quick if you fall. Smaller cord like 6mm can be used but might jam tight enough that the knot will be hard to break loose after a fall.

In the end you might have to experiment a little to see which size works best for you.


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## Stab 'em (Dec 26, 2008)

stanlh said:


> What size rope is used for the blakes hitch if my lifeline is 11 mm? Is 11 mm a correct size for a life line to be used in conjunction with a blakes hitch or does it not matter?


We use 13mm ropes to climb with most generally. The bridge line is tied with the same 13mm rope, because for tree workers it goes up the tree and around trunk and a suitable crotch then back down to the climber and both ends attach to the harness. Generally, the thinner the bridge line is in relation to the life line the more it will bite into the life line. Because I know what works for me I would just use the same 13mm rope material for both the life line attached to the tree and the 4' bridge line attached to that with a Blake's Hitch. The other end of the bridge line gets a Double Fisherman's knot tied to the carabiner which is clipped to the harness. I wouldn't go smaller that 11mm for safety sake.

Please note that if the bridge line is much longer that 4' you will not be able to grab the knot to descend while hanging in the harness because it will be too far above you. Too long of a bridge line defeats the purpose of a self rescue, and you are back to the point of struggling to get back into the stand because you are locked to the line and tree that you may not be able to self-rescue from. With a little bit of practice using this system in a yard tree (from the ground) and you will wonder why we ever tethered ourselves 20 foot up a tree in the wilderness with those full-body web harnesses in hopes that we could rescue ourselves by climbing back to our perches. Once you learn this knot, how to tension it, and to trust your equipment, you could use it every day descending from the stand if you liked.


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## BootyK (Dec 2, 2009)

ab2 said:


> Look at the buckle on the leg and waist, they come apart. When you have winter hunting boots and overalls with a bulky jacket for cold temps, trying to thread your leg through the loop and playing a balancing game isn't convenient. I like this harness better. Easy on and easy off. The 20 feet up harness doesn't have this feature.


AB2. I bought this Black Diamond Vario Speed harness, but I cannot figure out how the buckles come apart like the summit buckles. Can you give me instruction on this?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

I recently bought a Black Diamond Vario speed harness on ebay. In doing so I saw other Black Diamond vario harnesses that did not have the speed buckles. I am guessing those were an earlier version of the speed harness. It appeared to me the speed harness has orange colored buckles. Does yours have the orange buckles? I am no expert on these, just telling you what I have seen. If someone knows more on the difference between the two please correct me. 
The speed buckles are two pieces and you slide one inside the hole of the other then let them lay against each other. Similar to the buckles used on a fall guy brand safety vest. If you go online to black diamond I believe you can find a description of how the buckles work.


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## BootyK (Dec 2, 2009)

Mine has orange buckles just like this pic.







Yes it has 2 buckles With one inside the other. It appears that the smaller one will slip through the larger one but if you look closely there is a piece of black material sewn to both buckles connecting them together so they will not separate. (hope that description makes sense) 
Maybe there is an older model where the buckles separated. I'm not sure about that either. But the pic that AB2 posted is the exact same harness I have and it will not separate without cutting the black strap. (I don't feel comfortable cutting anything away from this since I do want it to catch me if I happen to fall). 
Thanks for the reply.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

I was told the description I gave you is how this model works. The one I bought will be here tomorrow. I will look it over and let you know what I see, but I will guess it is the same as yours. If that is the case I am disappointed. I was led to believe the buckles would separate.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

BootyK said:


> Mine has orange buckles just like this pic.
> View attachment 1432577
> 
> Yes it has 2 buckles With one inside the other. It appears that the smaller one will slip through the larger one but if you look closely there is a piece of black material sewn to both buckles connecting them together so they will not separate. (hope that description makes sense)
> ...


Got my Vario Speed Harness today. Looks just like yours with the buckles connected via a black webbing. I am going to call Black Diamond, will let you know what they say.


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## BootyK (Dec 2, 2009)

Thanks Stanlh, seems like we both may have gotten bad information.


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

Sorry guys, I should have posted up a follow up on the harness I got. When I talked to the rep he said it came apart. When I got it, it didn't. I cut off the black material off and I can now get into my harness without jumping through loops. I used velcro to keep the buckles together. It does go together like the summit seat buckles. I tested it and it works fine for me. I like it If I get a chance I will post up pictures. All the black straps do is hold the buckles together and act as a fast way of pulling the straps to tighten down on you.


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

in my opinion these are the buckles that should be on it to make it a quick on and off.

http://www.kingsnaps.net/index_down.php?openCatID=2&CAhs=defuse&II=37&CA=2&sele=shop


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

I called Black Diamond. Their engineers said DO NOT cut the black webbing that holds the two buckles together. They said that doing so could result in the two metal halves moving around too much and the leg strap coming unlocked as in no longer being tight. They said it would be locked when you first tighten it, but as you move around it could/would loosen and then is when the risk of the strap not being locked would occur. They said if you would have to keep tightening if it came loose to insure the strap is locked. 
As an alternative they suggested the Couloir or Alpine Bod harnesses.
Since I have already bought a Vario Speed harness I am going to use it. I am not going to cut the webbing and see how well I can get along with stepping into leg loops with boots on. I do still like the speed part of it in that you can tighten the buckles without threading straps. I also like that the waist size has a wide adjustment range.


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## BootyK (Dec 2, 2009)

Thanks for checking with Black Diamond. That's what I figured. I would have rather gotten the Alpine Bod. Oh well.


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## Big E TN (Jul 13, 2011)

Really like the idea of the 20 feet up speed clips. Let me ask this, say I wanted to use a rope with a prussic would it be safe to take the rope and just zip tie it to the cable on my climber, basically the way the clips on there system does. I know once you get up your supposed to move the strap out and cinch it to the tree but would it not still keep you from falling keeping it tied to the stand. You could put the first tie even with where the tree would be so you could still cinch it tight and while your climbing keep it loose. Y'all catch what Im saying? This way you could leave a rope tied to the stand and never remove it, just roll it up on the stand like your bow rope.


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

stanlh said:


> I called Black Diamond. Their engineers said DO NOT cut the black webbing that holds the two buckles together. They said that doing so could result in the two metal halves moving around too much and the leg strap coming unlocked as in no longer being tight. They said it would be locked when you first tighten it, but as you move around it could/would loosen and then is when the risk of the strap not being locked would occur. They said if you would have to keep tightening if it came loose to insure the strap is locked.
> As an alternative they suggested the Couloir or Alpine Bod harnesses.
> Since I have already bought a Vario Speed harness I am going to use it. I am not going to cut the webbing and see how well I can get along with stepping into leg loops with boots on. I do still like the speed part of it in that you can tighten the buckles without threading straps. I also like that the waist size has a wide adjustment range.


That is where the velcro works well. Anyways....do what works for you. I tested mine many times and didn't have any issues.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

BootyK said:


> Thanks for checking with Black Diamond. That's what I figured. I would have rather gotten the Alpine Bod. Oh well.


I would have gone with the Alpine Bod as well had I known about the vario.


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## BootyK (Dec 2, 2009)

Big E TN said:


> Really like the idea of the 20 feet up speed clips. Let me ask this, say I wanted to use a rope with a prussic would it be safe to take the rope and just zip tie it to the cable on my climber, basically the way the clips on there system does. I know once you get up your supposed to move the strap out and cinch it to the tree but would it not still keep you from falling keeping it tied to the stand. You could put the first tie even with where the tree would be so you could still cinch it tight and while your climbing keep it loose. Y'all catch what Im saying? This way you could leave a rope tied to the stand and never remove it, just roll it up on the stand like your bow rope.


I would say NO. I understand what you're sayin but I would think it would take a few feet of falling before it catches you. If you have it too loose it may not catch you till you hit the ground. I use a rope and prussic while climbing and it really is just a few seconds longer. It may work? It may not?

work but why take the chance. Just my opinion.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Big E TN said:


> Really like the idea of the 20 feet up speed clips. Let me ask this, say I wanted to use a rope with a prussic would it be safe to take the rope and just zip tie it to the cable on my climber, basically the way the clips on there system does. I know once you get up your supposed to move the strap out and cinch it to the tree but would it not still keep you from falling keeping it tied to the stand. You could put the first tie even with where the tree would be so you could still cinch it tight and while your climbing keep it loose. Y'all catch what Im saying? This way you could leave a rope tied to the stand and never remove it, just roll it up on the stand like your bow rope.


I saw this when you posted and it got me to thinking. I came up with something, similar to the 20 Feet Up clips, that I will be using with my climbing harness and rope style tree strap when using my climbing stand. The pics shows the prototype and I have since installed black clips. 

Keep in mind that I'm using a rock climbing harness. My harness is connected to a prusik loop which is attached to the rope tree strap. There is just enough slack to stand up and sit down while climbing and if I lean too far back or jump out of my stand the clips instantly releases the rope tree strap and it grabs the tree preventing the fall. When testing, the rope released from the clips with less than 2 pounds of weight.


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## Big E TN (Jul 13, 2011)

Awesome man. Where can u get them at. Let me say this, if you're not using a rock climbing harness then you're missing out. First year with it and I absolutely love it. I've had a HSS vest and the loggy transformer harness and will never go back. I absolutely don't even know I'm wearing it.


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## ayr_aca_cs (Jul 21, 2009)

What size of nylon runner would be used? and what would be a good length of runner? Thanks for any help.


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## cloudbaseracer (Jun 15, 2010)

Guys,

There is a lot of good information in here! Thanks for providing it. I was looking at switching from my Muddy full body harness to a something like the Black Diamond Couloir then I thought - why not just cut the shoulder portion off of the Muddy? I would still have the quick connect leg loops which I want as well as the lineman's attachment loops. I am not sure of the weight of the modified Muddy but it should be much lighter and more compact (though probably not as much as the Couloir). The one thing it would not have is the center "main" loop of the climbing harness.

I am open to any suggestions as to why this would not work or why the Couloir would be a better option. 

Cheers,

James


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

cloudbaseracer said:


> Guys,
> 
> There is a lot of good information in here! Thanks for providing it. I was looking at switching from my Muddy full body harness to a something like the Black Diamond Couloir then I thought - why not just cut the shoulder portion off of the Muddy? I would still have the quick connect leg loops which I want as well as the lineman's attachment loops. I am not sure of the weight of the modified Muddy but it should be much lighter and more compact (though probably not as much as the Couloir). The one thing it would not have is the center "main" loop of the climbing harness.
> 
> ...


If you cut off the shoulder straps you would slide out of the harness very easy since you wouldn't have a waist belt to tighten above your hips. Like you said, no center(belay) loop to hook to. Neither one sounds too safe to me.

I think you would be safer just getting a climbing harness and keeping the Muddy for hanging stands or a spare. 

You could also sell it and have enough for a climbing harness and a Treehopper lineman's belt.


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## cloudbaseracer (Jun 15, 2010)

Am I missing something here? My Muddy has a waistbelt and it has the ability to be tightened so I am trying to understand exactly what you are saying and how it would be any different than a regular climbing harness.

Thanks,

James


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## BootyK (Dec 2, 2009)

So if you cut the shoulder straps off the the only attachment you have is the 2 loops on each side for a Linemans belt. Correct? Just trying to figure out if this is your plan.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

cloudbaseracer said:


> Am I missing something here? My Muddy has a waistbelt and it has the ability to be tightened so I am trying to understand exactly what you are saying and how it would be any different than a regular climbing harness.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> James



My HSS harness has a waist belt and it WOULD NOT cinch down and keep you from falling out if it didn't have shoulder straps. The waist belt is more like a sternum strap instead of a waist belt.


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## cloudbaseracer (Jun 15, 2010)

BootyK said:


> So if you cut the shoulder straps off the the only attachment you have is the 2 loops on each side for a Linemans belt. Correct? Just trying to figure out if this is your plan.


Yes, if I remove the shoulder straps I will have the two loops on the side for the lineman's but not really a center loop. The waist belt on my harness is not high up like a sternum strap but down by my waist. I will have to see how I can add a place to hook-in the main tether. This may not work as the leg loops are not integrated in the same way a climbing harness does.


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## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

ttt for a informative thread!


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## ab2 (Jul 16, 2009)

The rock climbing harness rocks. I love it. No more heavy full body harness. I just wish someone would make a quick disconnect buckle like you see with hunter's safety system.


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## Stoo (Nov 22, 2010)

Ok somebody help me out. Is this what I'm looking for. It has a web loop at the back and I think I could attach to that, if it will hold.
http://www.mountaingear.com/webstore/Gear/Climbing/Harnesses/Mammut/Mirage-Harness-Closeout/_/R-224375.htm


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

Stoo said:


> Ok somebody help me out. Is this what I'm looking for. It has a web loop at the back and I think I could attach to that, if it will hold.
> http://www.mountaingear.com/webstore/Gear/Climbing/Harnesses/Mammut/Mirage-Harness-Closeout/_/R-224375.htm


The rear attachment is a haul loop and is not designed for supporting body weight.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

Just bought an ederid jay harness, guys will not like the color, but the quick release buckles and design of this harness is really nice for ony 50 bucks.

I plan on using it with my prussic rope and can run it through one of the waist loops in the rear to keep the rope out of the way.


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## Outdoorsman63 (Aug 22, 2011)

Ttt. This thread is chock full of good information.


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## ToddB (Oct 14, 2008)

Stoo said:


> Ok somebody help me out. Is this what I'm looking for. It has a web loop at the back and I think I could attach to that, if it will hold.
> http://www.mountaingear.com/webstore/Gear/Climbing/Harnesses/Mammut/Mirage-Harness-Closeout/_/R-224375.htm


That harness will work but Do Not hook up to the loop in the back!! You hook up to the belay loop, the one in the front that connects the 2 thigh straps to the belt, thats the only one rated for a load. Read this thread from the begining if your going this route.


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## iluvgear1 (May 9, 2011)

dtrkyman said:


> Just bought an ederid jay harness, guys will not like the color, but the quick release buckles and design of this harness is really nice for ony 50 bucks.
> 
> I plan on using it with my prussic rope and can run it through one of the waist loops in the rear to keep the rope out of the way.


Not a good idea.


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## rekon (Nov 19, 2011)

So I will attach a daisy chain to the tree strap from my Edelweiss, correct? Is there any other option than this?


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## escout402 (Feb 22, 2011)

I wouldn't use a daisy chain. I would buy a nylon runner or a Metolius PAS.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

rekon said:


> So I will attach a daisy chain to the tree strap from my Edelweiss, correct? Is there any other option than this?


A daisy chain can be dangerous if you don't use it correctly. I would use something else like a runner.


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## Arrowrain (Jan 2, 2009)

Is there a rock climbing harness which has separate loops for a linemans belt? I know you can not use the gear loops in this regard. Also anyone have the simplest,quickest way to tie in, I hunt exclusively from lock ons. Thanks, great info.
.


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## electricg2 (Aug 3, 2008)

Subscribe


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## cloudbaseracer (Jun 15, 2010)

Arrowrain said:


> Is there a rock climbing harness which has separate loops for a linemans belt? I know you can not use the gear loops in this regard. Also anyone have the simplest,quickest way to tie in, I hunt exclusively from lock ons. Thanks, great info.
> .


That is one thing I am up in the air on myself. How to connect a lineman's belt for the best use?

Cheers,

James


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

cloudbaseracer said:


> That is one thing I am up in the air on myself. How to connect a lineman's belt for the best use?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> James


I would connect both ends of the strap to the front connection point.


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## Ib4Hoyt (Jan 19, 2004)

Perry24 said:


> I would connect both ends of the strap to the front connection point.


^^^^^ this


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## msu33 (Aug 8, 2012)

Ib4Hoyt said:


> ^^^^^ this


I use a HSS lineman's strap with my rock climbing harness. One thing I do to reduce the noise, is I remove one of the carabeeners and run both ends through one carabeener after i have wrapped it around the tree. Then its just one carabeener hooked to the front of my harness.


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## peeker (Jan 30, 2009)

Arrowrain said:


> Is there a rock climbing harness which has separate loops for a linemans belt? I know you can not use the gear loops in this regard. Also anyone have the simplest,quickest way to tie in, I hunt exclusively from lock ons. Thanks, great info.
> .


I made a continuous loop out of 1" webbing that runs along the waist belt on my harness to both sides to use as lineman's belt attachment points. Works great. Once I'm at hunting height, I attach my tree strap and tie in, then remove the lineman's belt.


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Subscribed for future review....


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

I cut off two of the straps that attach to the free harness you get with stands that have the tear away stitching, then attached them to the front of my climbing belt instead of buying a nylon runner. Hitched them together and attach them to the prussic rope.


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## M.Magis (Oct 2, 2003)

Can I ask if anyone here knows for certain that this is safe? Because from what I’m seeing, everyone seems to be making assumptions. If you look at ANY industrial safety web site, all fall restraint systems are full body harnesses. *All of them.* Rock climbing harnesses, from what I can tell, are not meant to be fall restraint systems. I’m all for something less bulky, but I’m not going to make a bet on my life because a few guys on AT told me it was okay.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> Can I ask if anyone here knows for certain that this is safe? Because from what I’m seeing, everyone seems to be making assumptions. If you look at ANY industrial safety web site, all fall restraint systems are full body harnesses. *All of them.* Rock climbing harnesses, from what I can tell, are not meant to be fall restraint systems. I’m all for something less bulky, but I’m not going to make a bet on my life because a few guys on AT told me it was okay.


Go to youtube and watch some of the videos on leader fall. Then judge for yourself if that style of harness is suitable for catching you during a fall. A company called 20 feet up makes a hunting harness that resembles the climbing style harnesses. In their literature they say this style of harness needs to able to snug up around your hips (paraphrasing) and if you cannot wear it that way you should wear a harness that has shoulder straps.

If a rock climbing harness was not intended to be a fall restraint system why then would a rock climber even wear one?


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## M.Magis (Oct 2, 2003)

stanlh said:


> If a rock climbing harness was not intended to be a fall restraint system why then would a rock climber even wear one?


Thanks, I’ll look into it. 

Am I wrong that a rock climber is always attached to a line, so the type of fall they would experience would be different than a hunter from a tree?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> Thanks, I’ll look into it.
> 
> Am I wrong that a rock climber is always attached to a line, so the type of fall they would experience would be different than a hunter from a tree?


Not sure I understand your question. Please expand. Different how?


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## M.Magis (Oct 2, 2003)

stanlh said:


> Not sure I understand your question. Please expand. Different how?


I don’t know if my wording is right, but wouldn’t a fall from a tree stand be more of a dynamic fall, vs a rock climbing fall being more of a static fall? I could be wrong, but they seem different to me. I have to think that if these were effective for fall restraint, people who wear fall restraints for a living would use them. As best I can tell, full body harness are the only option for industrial fall restraint.


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## Mr. Man (Sep 19, 2011)

You shouldn't have that much slack in your tree connection.


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## M.Magis (Oct 2, 2003)

Yes, but there's always some. Again, maybe it doesn't make a difference, but I think it might.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> I don’t know if my wording is right, but wouldn’t a fall from a tree stand be more of a dynamic fall, vs a rock climbing fall being more of a static fall? I could be wrong, but they seem different to me. I have to think that if these were effective for fall restraint, people who wear fall restraints for a living would use them. As best I can tell, full body harness are the only option for industrial fall restraint.


I don't think falls are categorized as static of dynamic. There are static and dynamic ropes that are used in climbing and rappelling and rescue. Climbers use dynamic ropes because the rope is specially built to with elastic properties so when a climber falls the elasticity of the rope absorbs some of the shock so the climber is not injured, but just as importantly the anchors they use for climbing are not pulled out. If an anchor pulls out the climber could fall to the ground.

Static ropes are not built with this same elasticity. The rope has some give, but not much, something like 6% as compared to a dynamic rope that has approx. 34% elasticity. A climber could fall several feet. In climbing they talk about falling 5 meters which is about 15 feet. That may be the total height of your tree stand so in climbing the fall distance on safety equipment is much more than I think you would hope the fall would be in your tree stand safety equipment.

So which rope should you use for tree stand safety equipment? In a thread from last year a climber and tree stand bow hunter told me that static rope is just fine for a safety line because you are not going to see a leader fall, ie the lead climber falling on the order of 5 meters. His point was that with a safety line in a tree stand you are falling only a short distance. At least you are if you are paying attention and using a reasonably short connection to your safety line. When I set up the amount of slack rope I have that I could fall is 3 feet or less. This gives me plenty of room to turn for a bow shot if needed.

I have an HSS harness with the strap in the back and I am now using a rock harness that attaches in the front. The rock harness is easier to wear and I am not worried about suspension trauma if I fall and I believe it will be easier to self rescue with the safety rope in front of me when wearing the rock harness if I fall.

Whether you use static of dynamic rope is your choice. Opinions vary on whether dynamic rope is required for a tree stand. Dynamic ropes cost more. I have all static ropes on my stands, that is just how I started out based on advice from an experienced climber and bow hunter. The HSS harness is not made with dynamic rope, it does have straps with break away stitching. The HSS tree stand safety line kit you can buy does not appear to have dynamic line in it in my opinion because I don't think they could sell it for $40 and still make a profit on it. The rope they appear to be using is just a braided rope you could buy at a hardware store, but that is just my opinion based on observation. Static rope is rated much higher than plain braided rope from the hardware store.

If you have not done so read this whole thread then search for and read all the other threads on this subject and on the subject safety line. I am not a rock climber so what I write here is based solely on my reading and my opinion.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

M.Magis said:


> I don’t know if my wording is right, but wouldn’t a fall from a tree stand be more of a dynamic fall, vs a rock climbing fall being more of a static fall? I could be wrong, but they seem different to me. I have to think that if these were effective for fall restraint, people who wear fall restraints for a living would use them. As best I can tell, full body harness are the only option for industrial fall restraint.


Read this thread too on lifelines:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1861446


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## practice-more (Nov 10, 2005)

There are several threads on this topic and I've probably even posted this before, but it seems like there are a lot of questions from people that don't want to read all 14 pages:

Here is a link to a mod I did to add lineman's belt hooks to my climbing harness. As others have stated, the gear loops are NOT designed to be loaded. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1646767&highlight=harness

As others have stated, I would NOT try to remove the shoulder straps from a full body harness. You should be able to get a good quality rock climbing harness for under $50. If you want to use the tree straps and such that you have from other harness, go ahead, as long as they are in good shape. Otherwise, invest in a little good rope and make your own. Again, there are quite a few threads on here. Just make sure you understand the type of rope you need, NOT hardware store rope. I use a static repelling line because when using the technique correctly, there should never be more than a one or two foot fall, 

I have been using a rock climbing harness for a couple years now. I have also been using a couple different techniques of a 2 strap climbing method so I don't have to carry the sticks.*

In the end, use something properly designed for the application, something that you are confident in, and use it every time. 

Mitch


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## S.Alder (Aug 4, 2012)

subsribed


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## escout402 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ok, I just made the switch to a rock harness myself. I am using the Rope Style Tree Strap from Hunter Safety Systems, and it includes a carabiner to attach the harness to the prussic. However, the instructions on the harness clearly state that carabiner should not be used, and I should be using a figure 8 knot. How would I attach the harness to the prussic without the carabiner?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

escout402 said:


> Ok, I just made the switch to a rock harness myself. I am using the Rope Style Tree Strap from Hunter Safety Systems, and it includes a carabiner to attach the harness to the prussic. However, the instructions on the harness clearly state that carabiner should not be used, and I should be using a figure 8 knot. How would I attach the harness to the prussic without the carabiner?


Can you be more specific on where it says that and how? How does it say the figure 8 knot should be used? A carabiner is what people use to attach to a prussic.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

stanlh said:


> Can you be more specific on where it says that and how? How does it say the figure 8 knot should be used? A carabiner is what people use to attach to a prussic.


Which rock harness do you have?


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## escout402 (Feb 22, 2011)

The tag that came with the harness specifically says a carabiner must not be used, a figure 8 must be used. I am using carabiner right now, I figure any fall that I take will not be great enough to matter.


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## escout402 (Feb 22, 2011)

stanlh said:


> Which rock harness do you have?


Edelweiss Challenge.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

escout402 said:


> Ok, I just made the switch to a rock harness myself. I am using the Rope Style Tree Strap from Hunter Safety Systems, and it includes a carabiner to attach the harness to the prussic. However, the instructions on the harness clearly state that carabiner should not be used, and I should be using a figure 8 knot. How would I attach the harness to the prussic without the carabiner?



What's the brand name and model of harness that you have? Does it have a belay loop?


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## escout402 (Feb 22, 2011)

houser52 said:


> What's the brand name and model of harness that you have? Does it have a belay loop?


I just posted it above, with photo for detail.


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## houser52 (Apr 26, 2011)

escout402 said:


> I just posted it above, with photo for detail.


Sorry you posted while I was typing.

Your harness is made like the 20 Feet Up harness and it uses a carabiner. I use a carabiner on my Misty Mountain Gym Dandy and its made like yours. The belay loop is normally the strongest part of the harness and a carabiner is used on it.

Maybe go on their website and see if they have additional information that you don't have.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

escout402 said:


> Edelweiss Challenge.


I was looking for some instructions on using the harness, but found none. I did find this recall from 2006, you may want to check to see if yours is included if you bought yours used:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07049.html


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

I did some gym rock climbing with a friend about a decade ago and thus have some experience with both a dedicated climbing harness and the belay technique. As previously mentioned in this thread, it is expected that falls will occur when climbing in such a manner in order to increase the difficulty and skill level of the climber. I have personally hung from a belay rope many times using a climbing harness and can relate that while not totally comfortable to the male genital region, I was quite safe. Climbing harnesses are made with the expecation of numerous falls, while a dedicated bowhunting harness is designed to hopefully keep you alive in the relatively rare event of a fall. From what I have seen, bowhunting harness manufacturers strongly suggest that the gear be replaced in the event of an actual fall in case it was compromised by the jolt of a fall. That would be ludicrous in the rock climbing industry, as one would have to buy several rigs in a single evening of strenuous climbing. Therefore it is not a foolish attempt to save money by using a climbing harness, but a wise investment in a tried and tested product that could save your life if tied in properly. As with most modern devices that are used with an element of risk...........they try to make them as idiot-proof (and expensive) as possible to prevent future litigation.


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## jlh42581 (Oct 21, 2009)

Maybe this was answered but would it be possible to make a short sit, say the last hour of light in one of these like a tree saddle?


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## ffastfzr (May 14, 2012)

escout402 said:


> Edelweiss Challenge.


The manufacturer will always tell you to tie in and not use a caribiner. This is for many reasons but most likely so you don't accidentally crossload the carabiner when you take a fall. Cross loading reduces the failure point of the carabiner considerably. That being said, as long as you clip in properly and make sure your rope isnt wrapped around the carabiner, you should be fine.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Tagging this one, lots of good information here. Thanks to all for sharing


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## hedp (Dec 20, 2011)

Sub


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Does anybody know the difference between the Edelweiss challenge SIT harness and the Edelweiss challenge RC harness?


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## Slippyshaft (Dec 20, 2008)

Tagged


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## Jake L (Aug 20, 2010)

jlh42581 said:


> Maybe this was answered but would it be possible to make a short sit, say the last hour of light in one of these like a tree saddle?


Not really a good idea. While the chances are low there still is a chance of suspension trauma in a rock climbing harness if you are perfectly still. Most of the time after a fall you are moving your legs and either being lowered to safety by a partner or reestablishing yourself on the wall. The more padding the harness has including layers of clothing the less chance of this being an issue. Also while safer than normal hunting harnesses, nobody ever said anything about being comfortable. Especially my alpine harness (black diamond BOD) it sucks if you have to hang from it for too long.


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## Slippyshaft (Dec 20, 2008)

Subscribed


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Back up!


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Jake L said:


> Not really a good idea. While the chances are low there still is a chance of suspension trauma in a rock climbing harness if you are perfectly still. Most of the time after a fall you are moving your legs and either being lowered to safety by a partner or reestablishing yourself on the wall. The more padding the harness has including layers of clothing the less chance of this being an issue. Also while safer than normal hunting harnesses, nobody ever said anything about being comfortable. Especially my alpine harness (black diamond BOD) it sucks if you have to hang from it for too long.


Jake l: Suspension trauma is real. I guess anything is possible. I just haven't seen that ever in a properly worn rock climbing harness. Can you show who has died from suspension trauma with a rock climbing harness?
I will agree these are not going to replace a tree saddle. But they aren't nearly as bad as hanging like a Christmas ornament in a full body harness.JMO


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

This tether came with my loggy bayou, it's 7' long. Will it be long enough? I want to climb with it looped around the tree. Obviously the size of the tree is a factor but on a typical tree will it be enough?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

Bump


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## BAYOUBENGALS (Jan 15, 2003)

*Think I'm gonna do it.*

Subscribe


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Been using the Edelweiss harness pictured above and love it. I've hung from both this and my Muddy harness and this is far more comfortable. I am pretty sure the Muddy would have killed me in a fall, my legs started going numb after 30 seconds.


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

Had my first sit in my new harness and have to say thank you to all you guys for sharing your setups. It's fantastic, you feel like nothing's there. Cost me $55 not including the tether, which I got with my loggy bayou harness and never used


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

`Been using my rock climbing harness this week as well and its been much better than the full body harnesses. I bought a Mammut harness and my only complain is that it is noisy when I walk. I need to figure out something to remedy that so that I can sneak in to my stand in the morning without making a "swishing" noise.


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## Whaack (Apr 2, 2006)

Well I decided I was going to make the leap this year and go with a new harness. I went with this harness, it looks perfect for what I wanted:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005F8AF2K/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Adding a couple new biners to my setup and a rabbit runner to go from the harness to the HSS Lifelines i already have. Looking forward to my new "mobility".


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## bigasports (Nov 14, 2009)

Marked


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## ayr_aca_cs (Jul 21, 2009)

What is a good length for the nylon runner? How about the daisy chain? Help please I am pretty sure I have an idea of what lengths work but would like to hear what others have bought and what works the best. Thanks


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## river drifter (May 1, 2013)

A 175lb person taking a 2ft static fall on a runner can generate 16.7kn of impact force.

Enlightening video, check it out.


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## hedp (Dec 20, 2011)

ayr_aca_cs said:


> What is a good length for the nylon runner? How about the daisy chain? Help please I am pretty sure I have an idea of what lengths work but would like to hear what others have bought and what works the best. Thanks




I use a 44" runner. 



Since the runner is pretty taught you shouldn't fall too far. 
.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

Just wondering if anyone is wearing a climbing harness underneath your cold weather gear? i.e heavier pants and a jacket. I went and tried on a harness today and it fit good and felt comfortable, but i'm just wondering how it's going to work out with the belay loop under my jacket/pants. Anyone have experience with this?

Also, has anyone used a short runner as a second hookup from the rear haul loop to the tree strap to use to lean out against? If so, is it worth it?


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## KYBowhunter (Nov 22, 2005)

So do you have to attach to the tree from the front of the rock harnesses?


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## maximus4444 (May 27, 2011)

KYBowhunter said:


> So do you have to attach to the tree from the front of the rock harnesses?


The rock climbing harness is designed with the contact point in front. So yes, your harness will connect in the front.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

ride394 said:


> Just wondering if anyone is wearing a climbing harness underneath your cold weather gear? i.e heavier pants and a jacket. I went and tried on a harness today and it fit good and felt comfortable, but i'm just wondering how it's going to work out with the belay loop under my jacket/pants. Anyone have experience with this?
> 
> Also, has anyone used a short runner as a second hookup from the rear haul loop to the tree strap to use to lean out against? If so, is it worth it?


Try out your set up and see if it will work under your clothes. No, you don't have to fall from you stand to do this, just run a rope around a tree at a height above your head and then hang from it or fall against it. You will find out.
Not sure what you are talking about the loop in the back, but if I understand it correctly I don't think the haul loops on a harness are made to support your weight. So, don't do it.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

stanlh said:


> Try out your set up and see if it will work under your clothes. No, you don't have to fall from you stand to do this, just run a rope around a tree at a height above your head and then hang from it or fall against it. You will find out.
> Not sure what you are talking about the loop in the back, but if I understand it correctly I don't think the haul loops on a harness are made to support your weight. So, don't do it.


Thanks for the reply. I kinda figured that for the haul line. As for it working with my jacket I didn't mean so much in case of a fall, I meant when I sitting in my stand. I'm just hoping the loop or the lead rope wouldn't be pulling up on my jacket allowing the cold and wind to get in. 

I haven't decided if I'm going to purchase one yet, we'll rather I haven't decided if I'm going to purchase one now or wait until the season is over so I can test it out thoroughly in my backyard when I set my ladder stand up for the off season.


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## damenc (Sep 14, 2013)

Been reading on this thread and I think I've got it, please pardon my ignorance as I am looking to switch to climbing harness instead of using my tree harness which is heavy, bulky and has straps everywhere. I want to keep it simple on the stand but also safe. Am I correct to have this setup....

1. Tree stand will be between 15 to 20 feet up on the tree and will have tree steps installed.
2. I will be using the existing tree belt to tether.
3. Going to get the Black Diamond Coulour harness.
4. 16mm Tubular webbing about 5 - 6 feet length
5. [email protected] Carabiners

So my setup would be to tie in the webbing to both carabiners one on each end so that one end clips on the tree belt and the other to my Belay loop on my harness. String it around my right side so that it doesn't get in the way when I'm drawing my bow and still have room to pivot. I may have to adjust the length of the webbing to the tree belt so that if I do fall I would not fall more then 2 feet down. I spoke with the "specialist" at my local rock climbing store and he assured me that using the 16mm tubular webbing with the 2 caribiners for my use is more then sufficient. Even if the tree stand decide to fall completely off because I'm anchored to the tree belt at that length I would be safe because I'm not dropping a long distance. I'm thinking maybe even a utility rope as a secondary might give me the extra protection but not sure if this is needed or even turn two pieces tubular webbing instead of one because they are relatively inexpensive. Should I use a thicker 24mm tubular webbing for the extra strength? or would this be redundant? The guy at the shop says you could but harder to tie knots with that size.

stl, would this be a safe setup? If not, please advise or do you have a better suggestion? Thanks in advance.

Can't wait to try this out.


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## cobra_archer (Sep 26, 2006)

To those with experience with arborist and rock climbing gear do you think this is safe? I watched some one on youtube swap out their stock linesman strap and use a muddy stick strap instead, they added a climbing locking carabineer. this setup is much lighter, but is it safe?


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