# Bare shaft tuning - Sanity check?



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Hello. 

http://www.acsbows.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/tuninglongbowsandrecurves.pdf
Here's an excellent tuning protocol worth a thorough read (several times) and then followed to the letter in sequence. You'll notice in the "Bare Shaft Planing" segment beginning on page 7 that you should always be comparing fletched arrows with bare shafts in order to note the adjustments needed. You don't formally tune by just shooting bareshafts ... it's the comparison between fletched and bare that offers the tuning truth.

With a new bow that's ten pounds heavier than your regular bow, I personally would stick with existing arrows and get well-used to the bow over some weeks before attempting any formal tuning. I'd want my form to settle in comfortably with the new poundage, anchor hold, stability, etc. before bothering with any tuning protocol. This would eliminate most of "me" from the tuning. In other words, "own" your shot on that new bow before you begin tuning.

If your old arrows are fishtailing, try changing your nock point to eliminate this issue. You can use temporary thin strips of masking or painter tape and shoot from various nock locations ranging from parallel on up to an inch high. You should be able to find a straight shot within your experimentation even though the arrow may be "officially" weak. Fishtailing is quite often solved with a simple nock location adjustment. 

My initial thoughts were that bow in my own hands. Good luck.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Purty much whut Thin Man sed.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

If your bare shafts are impacting right of fletched no matter what spine you shoot, I suggest building out your side plate another 1/16" and try again. Nothing permanent yet, maybe stick a piece of felt or leather there with some double sided tape. Just for testing purposes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Pretty much whut Bender sed.


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## Stearmandriver (Sep 5, 2015)

Thanks guys.

I was following a simplified set of instructions that came with the test kit, and they basically said to shoot a bare shaft a few times and examine the orientation it sticks in the target. Mine have been sticking basically where I aim them, but cocked knock to the left. But I felt like I'd read in the past that there was more to it... I'll do some more reading. Thin, thanks for the link, I will study it. 

I did lower the knock set point a decent amount while experimenting with the bare shafts, and I haven't tried the fletched arrows since, so I'll fling some and see how they fly now. It sure looked more like side-to-side fishtailing instead of up-and-down, but I could be wrong, it obviously happens fast. I'll try again.

Thanks for the suggestions. I just want to get this roughly right before buying new arrows!


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## 1old buck (Jun 23, 2018)

Asbell's book "Instinctive Shooting" also mentions adjusting your brace height to change the left and right fishtailing of an arrow.


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## Smokedinpa (Mar 1, 2015)

The bare shaft impact tuning described above is what I prefer as well but I shoot through paper first until I get a small weak tear. I find it gets me in the ball park for bare shaft tuning.


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Brace height and paper can be used later, but not now. ACS is the way to go. You were running into false positives. I don't what to say that you won't run into them with ACS, but it's not as often.

Here's a suggestion, mentioned already with another idea. You have an impact of bare shaft right of fletched. What P&Y mentioned. You're trying to move the bare shaft left. If you put something on the strike plate the arrow will be left before the shot - and thereby moving the impact left. Take a stick match and tape it to the strike plant vertical with electrical tape. That will move it left. Maybe too much??? Split it down the middle and retape.

Bowmania


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

1old buck said:


> Asbell's book "Instinctive Shooting" also mentions adjusting your brace height to change the left and right fishtailing of an arrow.


That is because a higher brace height results in an arrow acting stiffer.


Be careful "fishtailing" as this is not paradox and an out of tune arrow. It is a severely out of tune arrow.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

too low of a np can also give false read as arrow rides the shelf instead of clearing it.


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## 1old buck (Jun 23, 2018)

Indeed, tradition archery is as fickle as fly fishing and women.


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## Stearmandriver (Sep 5, 2015)

1old buck said:


> Indeed, tradition archery is as fickle as fly fishing and women.


Two of my other favorite things. Is there a pattern here? 😉 

To clarify, my arrows are actually impacting where they're aimed for the most part, they're just impacting on an angle instead of straight. 

I'm out of town for work for a few days but I'll start systemically working through this advice when I get home. Brace height is an interesting idea too... I started by raising brace height until the bow got quiet and stopped slapping my forearm... But I could try a bit higher. 

Thanks guys... Feel free to keep chiming in, I'll take all the suggestions I can get. This is fun, something new to learn. I neglected it when I got my 1st recurve; I was in a hurry to get shooting so I just ordered some arrows based on a spine chart, and maybe by dumb luck or maybe because of the big fletching on the gamegetters, they fly nice and true off that bow. So even though I have some shooting experience now, the tuning process is kinda new. I don't want to get into analysis paralysis where I obsess over this for too long instead of accepting "good enough" and getting on with shooting... But I'd like to get it reasonably right.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I know your problems as follows...

Even with your 30" DL?...2317(.300 spine) shafting is far too stiff for that bow and you nock isn't left because of weak spine...it's left because it's kicking hard off your bows riser wall and giving you what's known as a *"False Weak"* bare shaft reading.

The diameter of a 23 series alum. shaft is .360" and then add in your 1/16th" cut before center riser (with a hair rest) and that's leaving the center of your shaft laying about a full 1/4" outboard of your bows true center and string path.

What you need is a weaker spined arrow with enough point weight to induce enough arrow flex (aka: "Paradox") to clear your riser and hit a clean state of tune.

I'm thinking some .500 spine standard diameter shafting (5/16ths/.312") with 175gr-200gr points should dial in nicely for you.


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## Stearmandriver (Sep 5, 2015)

JINKSTER said:


> I know your problems as follows...
> 
> Even with your 30" DL?...2317(.300 spine) shafting is far too stiff for that bow and you nock isn't left because of weak spine...it's left because it's kicking hard off your bows riser wall and giving you what's known as a *"False Weak"* bare shaft reading.
> 
> ...


This makes great sense. I knew that was far too stiff but couldn't figure out why it was giving me the results it was (though I'll bet it's explained in that link I haven't had a chance to read yet). Thanks for the explanation.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Good catch Jinkster. 

OP, please let us know how this tuning project turns out.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I had that same issue with one. I sold it. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Stearmandriver (Sep 5, 2015)

Ok, sorry for the delay. Work, and then it was too damn hot so we went camping on the coast.

So, here's a couple pics of the results of a test group. 500 spine, 31" xx75 gamegetters with a 100g point, at 15yds. I've shot several test groups and these results are typical. (The bare shafts are all the shafts from my test kit stuck into the actual impact hole as markers, so take the angles with a grain of salt.)

I'm thinking my next step is dropping to 400 spine shafts with a heavier point, then coming down in point weight until they're flying straight? Problem is, I don't have any fletched 400 spine shafts...


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## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

Are all 4 bareshaft arrows your group or typical group, at 15 yards? If so, you might just go ahead and shoot the fletched 500s until form and groups get better. Mark


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## Stearmandriver (Sep 5, 2015)

lunger 66 said:


> Are all 4 bareshaft arrows your group or typical group, at 15 yards? If so, you might just go ahead and shoot the fletched 500s until form and groups get better. Mark


Well, speaking generally, the 15yd group from the recurve I've been shooting for a while would be a hell of a lot better. But the fletched shafts are definitely grouping somewhere near the middle and the bares are always right and usually off target.

Now, I think the bares would probably be in a better group (off to the right), except they're flying nock left from the time they leave the bow, and so when the point passes just right of the right edge of the target, the shaft hits the target edge and bounces right in an unpredictable manner. Point is, the bares are definitely always flying nock left and impacting right.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

A layered target like that is NOT good for trying to extract any meaningful info from concerning nock end orientation even IF you have gone far enough along that you have bare and fletched hitting same point of impact. (And do not forget, THAT is the FIRST and single MOST IMPORTANT aspect of bare shaft tuning.)

Now a layered target does NOT "force" an arrow to be stuck in the target crooked. Nor does it alter point of impact. HOWEVER it does allow the arrow to exaggerate just how crooked it really was in flight. Say its coming in at only a few degrees crooked. But by the time has fully stopped in the target, that nock end will be laying over WAY crooked. Layers sitting horizontal? Left/right and weak/stiff indications if using nock end orientation as a gauge will be badly exaggerated. Layers vertical? Same idea goes for nock point too high/low.

Really truly, a homogeneous target medium is needed if you think you're going to worry about nock orientation. And you shouldn't even be letting it mess with your head until after you have bare and fletched already grouping together. Nock orientation is not useless, BUT it does need to be reserved for later and when seeking a finer state of tune.


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## Stearmandriver (Sep 5, 2015)

Thanks Bender. When I get to that point, I'll use the new straw bales I'm getting soon.

Right now though, I am just looking at point of impact... And the bares are definitely impacting right. 

When I say the bares are flying nock left, I'm not just using orientation in the target as an indication... I can see them flying that way, all the way in.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Very good. 

For bare shaft, starting at 10 yards is good, for obvious safety reasons.  But once you get back to 15, 20 or more you get start to see stuff like that.

For the "homogeneous" target medium, naturally I like styrofoam. And I did luck out on getting a bunch of BIG blocks of it for free a while back. You can also sometimes snag old dead spa covers for free from spa repair guys. Stack 'em 2 or 3 thick. That's styrofoam inside them. But styro has a severely limited lifespan. Bag targets, if they get a hard spot in the center, can allow a serious "whip" effect if your tuning is off. Enough to snap a 45# spine woody at least during initial tuning when you start with a full length shaft and are probably on the weak dynamic spine end of things.

So short of styro, a cheap layered target built such that you can shoot THROUGH the layers is good. Or a 3D target or a block made of that type of material is of course good.

BTW with 3D targets, I shoot the heck out 'em until I shoot out the kill, then I cut the body up into thick slices and shoot at those, or hang onto them for other 3D repair. Its a PITA, and you can get the reinforcing pipes and rods out of the legs if you seriously work at it, but it is worth it because 3D's ain't cheap.


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