# Rant about my new Hoyt Gamemaster II.



## thunder child (Jul 8, 2010)

Limb cracked on my old 65# hunting bow one month before big game season. Ordered a new Hoyt Gamemaster II with 65# limbs. Bow shows up 3 weeks later. Wow the draw feels heavier than my old bow did, and I'm having trouble tuning my arrows. Read here that Gamemasters tend to be heavier than the stated draw weight. Just had it checked at the archery shop and at 28" it pulled 69# and at my draw of 29" it showed 74#. Dealer is going to call Hoyt tomorrow. Anyone else ever call Hoyt on this problem? If so what did they have to say? Thanks for listening. Rant off.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I don't own a HG II, but I have read several posted comments from different HG II owners that did say that the bow's draw-weight is _commonly _ greater than what is marked on the bow. I would be raising hell. Bows do sometimes have a greater/lesser DW than marked....which I consider BS quality control...but I get the impression that the HG II is always heavier than marked.


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## Outback Man (Nov 21, 2009)

I bought my GM1 used so I've got no ability to complain (and had read that prior to purchasing,) but I have yet to actually put it on a scale (been shooting a different bow for now) but it seems heavier than the 55# that it's marked. I think I've read that it's due to the way Hoyt measures DL vs. how others may, making it heavier than marked when you get to 28", much less past it...but I could just be full of it. Good luck.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

My 45lb (marked) is really a 50 but I knew it before I purchased it. I do really like the bow. At your 29 inch draw you might try some 50lb limbs and see if it's about right for you. Assuming they will be close to 55 lbs at 28 inches and over 60 lbs at 29 inches, it might work for you.


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## nulfisin (May 19, 2009)

*Draws heavy*

My 45 draws at at least 48, maybe more. Otherwise it's a great bow. Hoyt must and I'm sure will take care of your problem. Stay on them and they will take care of you.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

5 pound gain in one inch? I bet thats a fun one to shoot lol

If I order a 50 pound bow, I expect a 50 pound bow, not 55 or Thats what I would have ordered. The whole idea behind AMO was standardization. Im bettin its intentional. When bubba puts his 50 hoyt against a 50 x brand...it shooots a little quicker


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## bayeux (Jan 10, 2010)

:thumbs_up:thumbs_doI had mine at #45 but found out later when itested it that it was#48 at #28 DL, for some reason they are all like this. Their compounds are faster than stated also.


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

my 50# gm1. pulled 54#. my 50# Hatfield pulls almost 51#, go figure.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

trapperDave said:


> 5 pound gain in one inch? I bet thats a fun one to shoot lol
> 
> If I order a 50 pound bow, I expect a 50 pound bow, not 55 or Thats what I would have ordered. The whole idea behind AMO was standardization. Im bettin its intentional. When bubba puts his 50 hoyt against a 50 x brand...it shooots a little quicker


I'd prefer to have my limbs a little heavy rather than a little weak. I don't know how much control you have over wood to produce a particular poundage in a laminations, but I'd suspect that for the price they do a pretty good job. As for your analogy.... Bubba is smarter than you thought huh..... :grin:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

martha j said:


> my 50# gm1. pulled 54#. my 50# Hatfield pulls almost 51#, go figure.


 I never measured my hatfields nor have I the means of measuring my other bows, but my 45# hoyt dorado is zippy... and I'm guessing that +? / -0 tolerance is better than a +/- tolerance for us the buyers.

Much Aloha.... :beer:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I would guess that more returns would be generated by making under-weight limbs than over-weight ones. It's most likely (as rattus said), a business decision.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Also, when comparing within a few pounds for a given DL, the shooter's or standard 28", a variance in shooter's brace height comes to play. Shorter string will register a higher value. Though, my GMII at the factory recommended BH at it's lowest is a few pounds higher than marked.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Outback Man said:


> I think I've read that it's due to the way Hoyt measures DL vs. how others may, making it heavier than marked when you get to 28", much less past it...but I could just be full of it. Good luck.


Their website states they use ATA Standard. That is, 1.75 inches from the throat of the grip. I checked my GMII, and that puts the 28" mark to be at least 3/4" from the riser. At the range tonight, I checked a 50# Dorado, and it was the same. I scaled based on that, 28" being 3/4 before the riser, and it pulled exactly 50#. If I pull to the riser, it's a 55# bow.

I haven't checked my GMII to see if it would work out the same. I recall measuring it on the scale by pulling to the riser back when I got it, though, and it did register higher than marked. Makes sense. These two bow's risers are thinner than most. By comparison, my Matrix is wider than 1.75" at the throat to riser edge and my Pinnacle is exactly 1.75" width at these points. So, if a person were making comparison just based on arrow ending from edge of riser, they would gain 3/4" on the GMII and Dorado.


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## thunder child (Jul 8, 2010)

Well guys here is the update on my 65# Gamemaster II. My dealer talked to the Hoyt rep. & Sanford has it pretty much right on. According to the rep. Hoyt measures the draw weight with the string drawn back 26 1/4" from the "pivot point" of the grip (which would be the deepest part of the back of the grip). Adding 1 3/4" to come up to 28" does put the measurement out in front of the riser by about 3/4" on the Gamemaster II. In addition it was stated that Hoyt's accepted varience on weight is + or - 3#. So based on this information we weighed my bow again and at 26 1/4" from the "pivot point" the weight was 68# just within the allowable limit. Then we measured it again at 27 1/4" to allow for my 29" draw length and got a weight of 72# for a 4# weight gain per inch. (I didn't think to ask if their was an acceptable weight increase per inch of draw length). My dealer is going to call the rep. back with our findings but from the sounds of things I think I've got myself a 72# bow and I'll need to up my routine at the gym.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

thunder child said:


> Well guys here is the update on my 65# Gamemaster II. My dealer talked to the Hoyt rep. & Sanford has it pretty much right on. According to the rep. Hoyt measures the draw weight with the string drawn back 26 1/4" from the "pivot point" of the grip (which would be the deepest part of the back of the grip). Adding 1 3/4" to come up to 28" does put the measurement out in front of the riser by about 3/4" on the Gamemaster II. In addition it was stated that Hoyt's accepted varience on weight is + or - 3#. So based on this information we weighed my bow again and at 26 1/4" from the "pivot point" the weight was 68# just within the allowable limit. Then we measured it again at 27 1/4" to allow for my 29" draw length and got a weight of 72# for a 4# weight gain per inch. (I didn't think to ask if their was an acceptable weight increase per inch of draw length). My dealer is going to call the rep. back with our findings but from the sounds of things I think I've got myself a 72# bow and I'll need to up my routine at the gym.


So you got not just one, but TWO benefits from your bow.... more zip and and workout routine as well.... Right on... :thumbs_up

Much Aloha.... :beer:


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

thunder child said:


> I think I've got myself a 72# bow and I'll need to up my routine at the gym.


If you have been pulling a 65# bow for a while, you don't need to go to the gym. You need to pulling the heavier Hoyt for a while to get used to it and the weight should be no problem. :beer:


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## Runningbuck (Mar 11, 2009)

I own two GamemasterII's and a Hoyt Dorado. They all pull five pounds heavier then stated on the limbs. I have a older Gamemaster I that is only about two pounds heavier then what the limb says.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

I`ve had 4 game masters and weight dead on for me ... but I find it hard to fathom that you state in you first post you knew they came in heavy but still chose to order the weight you did .. Then want the company to come good ...Sorry I have a problem with this...This is like ordering a v6 car and wanting a v8 only in reverse..


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

I do not have a Game Master but I do have a Dorado @ 50# & when I scale it at my draw length 27.5" AMO it sits at 52#


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Raider2000 said:


> I do not have a Game Master but I do have a Dorado @ 50# & when I scale it at my draw length 27.5" AMO it sits at 52#


I don't know what my Dorado does either, but it does better than what I would have suspected from 45# bow.

Aloha... :beer:


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## Ybuck (Apr 21, 2007)

My GMII pulled 3# over.
Great, great bow though.


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## thunder child (Jul 8, 2010)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> I`ve had 4 game masters and weight dead on for me ... but I find it hard to fathom that you state in you first post you knew they came in heavy but still chose to order the weight you did .. Then want the company to come good ...Sorry I have a problem with this...This is like ordering a v6 car and wanting a v8 only in reverse..


CLASSICHUNTER. Maybe not clear in original post, but discovered the bows pull heavy comments after the bow had already been ordered and I was researching what brace heights people were using and what quivers were prefered for the Gamemaster. I'm not angry with Hoyt, after all it sounds like this is the system they use to determine bow weight and they are consistant. Just think it would be nice if they had a disclamer like on passinger side mirrors "objects may be closer than they appear" only Bows may draw heaver that stated. Then explain how they measure for draw weights.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

thunder child;1058699320In addition it was stated that Hoyt's accepted varience on weight is + or - 3#. So based on this information we weighed my bow again and at 26 1/4" from the "pivot point" the weight was 68# just within the allowable limit. The[/QUOTE said:


> Pretty much industry standard. By using +/- 3# Hoyt never has to worry about making exact limb weights, they'll always be able to round up or down to the nearest 5# increment--no limbs ever wasted. They just test the limbs and sort them, and they even have a half pound of overlap to play with. But that being said, I've always had a problem with manufacturers who mark the rounded weight rather than the actual weight on the limbs. Seems like BS to me. I accept that the vagaries of materials and quality control means that they can't just make the limbs all come out at exactly 65#, but I do think that the limbs should be marked with their actual draw weight in addition to the rounded off category. I'm glad they don't sell bows length the way they sell draw weight, with bows being within +/1 3", or bowstrings for that matter. People wouldn't put up with it.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Pretty much industry standard. By using +/- 3# Hoyt never has to worry about making exact limb weights, they'll always be able to round up or down to the nearest 5# increment--no limbs ever wasted. They just test the limbs and sort them, and they even have a half pound of overlap to play with. But that being said, I've always had a problem with manufacturers who mark the rounded weight rather than the actual weight on the limbs. Seems like BS to me. I accept that the vagaries of materials and quality control means that they can't just make the limbs all come out at exactly 65#, but I do think that the limbs should be marked with their actual draw weight in addition to the rounded off category. I'm glad they don't sell bows length the way they sell draw weight, with bows being within +/1 3", or bowstrings for that matter. People wouldn't put up with it.


Good points, Warbow. 

I pretty much think the accepted manufacturing variance is priced into the product. It's part of the deal. 

Carbon arrows are no exception either. During the manufacture for a given arrow, they all are cut from from the same long tube, yet we find some sorted and sold with closer runout and weight tolerance and re-branded slightly different. What that means is that the person buying the closer tolerance arrow pays more, as someone had to cull, sort, and inventory those arrows separate from the whole of production process. The rest of the tube, technically rejects, are the remaining arrows sold from the production. 

The manufacturer can maintain the tolerances found in the rejects across the whole of the production process, but to find more "exact" matches, a second process is required. Not to mention, they also must separately inventory and market for those wanting that closer tolerance. If it was easy enough to mass produce a tube that had the close tolerances to begin with, they could do that, but it apparently ain't. Their only other option is to hand build/fit every arrow to a same close spec, but that would cost even more.

Could a mass bow producer cull bows and sell as exact 60# bows from the the 62s, 63s, or 64s and sell them all based on "exact" draw weights, yes, but that would be an inventory nightmare, and again, add to cost and price.

Could a mass producer ensure that each limb pulls exactly 60#, yes, but that puts them closer to being a custom bowyer and again, such would demand more cost and price.

Are some of the higher priced limbs out there built and culled with exacting weight marks, yes, but they cost more than one pays for a whole bow in a GMII or Dorado.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Sanford:

Your justification for Hoyt sounds like company rhetoric to me.

It appears that the GM II sells for around $600; over $700 in some regions. In your opinion, just how expensive must a bow be before one has justifiable expectations of getting what they pay for? 

For years now I have kept the draw-weights of my hunting bows at 52#-54#. Mainly for 2 reasons:

-Having 4 primary hunting bows, all with comparable draw-weights; with or without some tweaking, any arrow and broadhead in my arrow/broadhead inventory can be used on any of my bows. That prevents me from having to purchase various arrow spines and broadhead weights.

-Regardless of which bow I take to the field, because the draw-weights of the bows and the setup as so closely similar, I don't have to retune myself and my shooting form.

The bottom line for me is; I want exactly what I pay for. If I want a 45# DW recurve, I have very specific and valid reasons why, and I want a 45# DW. Don't sell or try to sell me a bow that is marked 45# but is actually 48, 50, etc. If you can't provide me exactly want I want; then say so. Don't give me some BS song and dance about production costs, because there are other manufacturers that can satisfy me.

This crap that Hoyt and other bow manufacturers are getting away is accomplished only because consumers are allowing them to. If I can't test the bow before I purchase it, how difficult would be for someone to scale a bow and find the one I want? 

The consumer with the money is the person that dictates.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

If that is true, it is obvious that they are dictating that the Hoyt way is the right way.... :grin:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> If that is true, it is obvious that they are dictating that the Hoyt way is the right way....


How many GM II owners are there?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> If that is true, it is obvious that they are dictating that the Hoyt way is the right way.... :grin:
> 
> Much Aloha... :beer:


Yeah, they all seem to have missed Windy's Memo :smile:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

How is it that in the late '60s and early '70s Fred Bear was able to manufacture 3-piece takedowns with 3 lengths of risers and 3 limb types, and that any combo of the risers and limbs would, 99 times out of 100, produce the exact draw-weight as stated they would, but that 40 years later with far more advanced engineering technology and computerized precision, Hoyt...and some others... cannot get it right? 

I have 2 Bear takedown combos that are 41 and 38 years old, and I will wager that if I scale them, the draw-weights will be as the specs say they should be?

Some shooters are willing to compromise and accept what is dictated and limited by today's manufacturers; I'm not. My tuning/shooting dope is years-established and I will not compromise...especially when I am paying the freight. There are too many bow builders that will give you exactly want you want, not what you have to settle for.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> How is it that in the late '60s and early '70s Fred Bear was able to manufacture 3-piece takedowns with 3 lengths of risers and 3 limb types, and that any combo of the risers and limbs would, 99 times out of 100, produce the exact draw-weight as stated they would, but that 40 years later with far more advanced engineering technology and computerized precision, Hoyt...and some others... cannot get it right?
> 
> I have 2 Bear takedown combos that are 41 and 38 years old, and I will wager that if I scale them, the draw-weights will be as the specs say they should be?
> 
> Some shooters are willing to compromise and accept what is dictated and limited by today's manufacturers; I'm not. My tuning/shooting dope is years-established and I will not compromise...especially when I am paying the freight. There are too many bow builders that will give you exactly want you want, not what you have to settle for.


 I think that it matters not much to the masses if they get what they quality. I'm not unhappy with Dorado and maybe it's because I DON'T CARE that it might be heavy(ier) than I expected. I can handle it emotionally and I'm sure if it was "intolerable" I could send the limbs to Hoyt and I'm sure I'd get the limbs within their tolerance.

Everything has a tolerance, by the way, even really intricate stuff like airplane engines, but even though I know what you mean about maybe not compromising, I am satisfied with my Dorado. When I first started archery, my bows were like 53# 48# 58# etc... and I think that back then they probably actually weighed them before they went on the rack. Today, everything is by internet and sales are 15 or 20 times what they used to be. You don't think that that deserves 3# now and again... :grin:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

I thought original poster had info before hand...MY APOLOGIES .... seems I have some older bows that have a xx after poundage on bow which I understand means bow is 2-3 lbs over stated weight....It is almost impossible to have every limb come out at 45 lbs when you use different elements to make them.. that is why in more like the ilf limbs they come in 2 lb increments when you buy them... much bigger inventory needed then.. as these bows are sold in 5 lb increments then the company's are within tolerances.... one thing with this bow is there is a lot of limbs out there for one to buy or trade with.. also some one asked who many gm 11 are sold .. would the word lots fall into place and there is a reason why... excellent bang for the buck.....enjoy your new bow... they are sweet shooters... Met Randy Irvine at the ibo worlds this year if I remember correctly he shoots a gm11 and a set of g3 limbs on it HE WON SHOOTER OF THE YEAR IN IBO TRAD with his I also have an identical rig with the g3 limbs almost as smooth as my formula rx....


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## Orion Major (Oct 20, 2006)

I don't own one, but Black Widow's seem to be one of the more respected companies and according to their website, you can order a bow at a specific draw wieght, but it comes with a tolerance of +/- 2 lbs, for 25$ extra you get +/- 1 lb, and for 75$ you get dead on. I know squat about making bows, but this seems reasonable to me.


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

Don't think that I (or most people) would be willing to spend another $75 to get "dead on" - as well as spending the money for a scale that is that exact to verify it. Those whose bows are wildly "off" might double check that their scale is giving the correct weight in the range you are measuring!


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## IAIS604 (Apr 11, 2010)

My Hoyt manual says: "The weight marked on the limb is measured at a 28” standard A.T.A. (Archery Trade Association) draw length. A.T.A. draw length is measured at 26 1/4” to the throat of the bow grip plus 1 3/4”. This produces an industry standard by which draw weights are measured."

So ... if this method of measurement is the ATA standard, is Hoyt wrong or are we not measuring correctly?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

IAIS604 said:


> My Hoyt manual says: "The weight marked on the limb is measured at a 28” standard A.T.A. (Archery Trade Association) draw length. A.T.A. draw length is measured at 26 1/4” to the throat of the bow grip plus 1 3/4”. This produces an industry standard by which draw weights are measured."
> 
> So ... if this method of measurement is the ATA standard, is Hoyt wrong or are we not measuring correctly?


Being that I still don't understand what this means I cannot help you. When I measure my arrows with a draw check arrow, it is to 1" in front of the riser from anchor. I consider drawlength to be from the grip to anchor. This I know is not the same. What exactly do they mean by draw to the throat at 26 1/4 then adding 1 3/4?

Aloha... :beer:


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## Orion Major (Oct 20, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> Being that I still don't understand what this means I cannot help you. When I measure my arrows with a draw check arrow, it is to 1" in front of the riser from anchor. I consider drawlength to be from the grip to anchor. This I know is not the same. What exactly do they mean by draw to the throat at 26 1/4 then adding 1 3/4?:


From the reading I have done this "throat + 1 3/4" is indeed the industry standard. So it looks like the Hoyts may not be as far off as most think. Almost everyone I know (including every shop I've seen check someones draw) measures to the far side (back) of the riser. But the industry standard says draw wieght is at 28" from the nock groove to 1 3/4 past the throat of the grip. Now if the throat (narrowest part of the grip) happens to be 1 3/4' from the back of the bow, then all is same/same.
I just measured 5 different bows and the width from bottom of grip to back of riser varied from 1" to just over 1 3/4.
And I own two different brand bow scales and have tried two others and they all varied a little from each other by as much as a little over two pounds.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Orion Major said:


> From the reading I have done this "throat + 1 3/4" is indeed the industry standard. So it looks like the Hoyts may not be as far off as most think. Almost everyone I know (including every shop I've seen check someones draw) measures to the far side (back) of the riser. But the industry standard says draw wieght is at 28" from the nock groove to 1 3/4 past the throat of the grip. Now if the throat (narrowest part of the grip) happens to be 1 3/4' from the back of the bow, then all is same/same.
> I just measured 5 different bows and the width from bottom of grip to back of riser varied from 1" to just over 1 3/4.
> And I own two different brand bow scales and have tried two others and they all varied a little from each other by as much as a little over two pounds.


Ok.... but where do you actually measure the draw from? Do you measure the weight from 26 1/4 from the throat or is it 28 from the throat? Where do you measure the 1 3/4 from? To ME... AND MY OPINION.... Draw weight should be measured from the throat/grip/whatever you're pulling to anchor. To measure the bow, should be simple. Does the 26 1/4 mean you measure from the grip 26 1/4 and then pull back 1 3/4 more? Wouldn't that be 28" from the throat?

Much Aloha.... and I'm responsible for my own confusion so don't bother apologizing for me... according to the missuse it's genetic... :grin:

:beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Ok.... but where do you actually measure the draw from? Do you measure the weight from 26 1/4 from the throat or is it 28 from the throat? Where do you measure the 1 3/4 from? To ME... AND MY OPINION.... Draw weight should be measured from the throat/grip/whatever you're pulling to anchor. To measure the bow, should be simple. Does the 26 1/4 mean you measure from the grip 26 1/4 and then pull back 1 3/4 more? Wouldn't that be 28" from the throat?
> 
> Much Aloha.... and I'm responsible for my own confusion so don't bother apologizing for me... according to the missuse it's genetic... :grin:
> 
> :beer:


Rattus (I'm glad there's a "u" in that),

I have seen shop keepers do it both ways. With just a marked arrow, they measure from the anchor to the web of bow hand (same place as throat of grip) and then add on to that. Or, they may measure a drawn bow to the back of the riser. The ATA/AMO Standard just set the amount of "add on" from the first way at a standard of 1.75" - the average width of most bows from that point (web of bow hand) to the back of riser.

When we put a bow on a scale, there is no web of hand to stop at, so, we usually stop at the back of the riser. That's fine if all bows are 1.75", there, ATA Standard and the ad-hoc method would be the same.

If a bow's riser was only 1" thick at this point, as with the GMII and Dorado, there is a problem with measuring to the back of the bow. Here, we need to stop the scale 3/4" before the back of riser, which is 1.75" from the throat (web of bow hand), which would come out the same if a shop measured our arm's draw and added 1.75.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> Rattus (I'm glad there's a "u" in that),
> 
> I have seen shop keepers do it both ways. With just a marked arrow, they measure from the anchor to the web of bow hand (same place as throat of grip) and then add on to that. Or, they may measure a drawn bow to the back of the riser. The ATA/AMO Standard just set the amount of "add on" from the first way at a standard of 1.75" - the average width of most bows from that point (web of bow hand) to the back of riser.
> 
> ...




I should go have a beer... maybe a shot and callit a day..... :grin: I don't drink... rats.... ok... So the BOTTOM LINE IS THAT What? The bow is drawn till an arrow is 26 1/4" from the throat/web grip what.... or is it drawn till... ??? I'm lost with this explanation actually. Is the 28" draw length measure of poundage meant to assume an arrow point is 1 3/4" forward of the grip as measured from 26 1/4" and if that point extends beyond the riser, you pull that 28" arrow back to the riser and if that riser is deeper than 1.75" you mark the riser at 1.75 forward of the throat and pull a 28" arrow to that point?

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Rattus,

ATA/AMO assumes the riser is 1.75 (1 & 3/4)inches wide from grip to back of riser. For now, ignore the 26.4 plus stuff.

If you measure on a scale stopping at 28" mark against back of riser, and on a bow that is the ATA assumed width, that is the spec to bow was weighed at. 55# bow @ 28" pull will measure 55# using this measurement.

Now, if I want to measure my GM for lbs at 28", I know that the riser is not ATA assumed width, it is 1" or 3/4" narrower than ATA assumed width. I need to subtract that 3/4" when I measure mine on the scale. I would pull it to 27.25" and that would be the same as pulling 28" on a 1.75" thick riser. If I had pulled far enough back to make 28" stop at the riser, I would have pulled past the ATA standard width and I would get a higher reading for 28". Why? Cause I pulled 28.75 inches.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Thanks.... 

Aloha... :beer:


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