# Are spin wing vanes that much better?



## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

Are spin wing vanes that much better than say the AAE Plastifletch max vanes? Are spin wing vanes worth the trouble of needing to fix them that often?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Knowing some of the history and your shooting level (from your posts and questions (many have been good questions by the way)) My first inclination / response would be.. 

"If you have to ask, at this level, Probably not worth the trouble"
"if you think it's going to gain you 5-10 points per end, I doubt it will and definitely not worth the trouble"

Again, going back to the some of my other comments. If you like to tinker and see how it affects your shot, and might gain some of your own insight, then it may be worth trying a set.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Fix them? Very durable, with a severe impact rub out the crease between thumb and fingernail. They are the most durable thing I've tried in many years. Very little learning curve in proper application, can fletch a dozen in half hour now! Sprinkle baby powder on them to keep them from sticking to each other in the quiver, heat up the fletches with a hair drier to enhance the bond of the tape if shooting in cooler climate, that was the only issue I had was shooting in sub 20 deg temps.

I'm sold on them and will also shoot them indoors this winter!


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I really like the AAE wav vanes - granted I have limited experience - but I did see better arrow flight after taking off the stock CI vanes on my CI SC's. 

Then again - it was just a tinkering sort of thing. I was curious to see what would happen so I tried them. I "feel" like they made my arrows a little more forgiving. But I would have been better off spending the $100 I did in a jig, glue, and fletching on a couple lessons with a certified coach. 

Still they look cool on my arrows. Yellow and black.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Evidentiary observation would suggest that SpinWings are the best groupers for the last 20 years. Plastic vanes are the most durable (pretty much glue it and forget it). GasPro and Elivanes may prove, over time, to be the best compromise for many shooters - as good or almost as good groupers as SpinWings and as durable or almost as durable as plastic vanes.

On-sabbatical Limbwalker (John Magera) has commented that while Spin Wings correct quicker out of the bow than either GasPro or Elivanes (the SpinWing curl is more aggressive on the arrow than is the GasPro or Elivane - at least mine are), he's shot his top scores (though the increases were incremental, not monumental) at many distances with the Elivanes (as opposed to plastic glue-on vanes, and loves the durability of the Elivanes compared to the SpinWings (and the ability to replace a vane in the field if need be). 

My own experience is my 2.5" GasPro's group just as well as my 1-9/16" SpinWings, and the GasPro's are much more durable than the SpinWings (and so are a better candidate for indoor shooting where vanes get knocked around more at 20yards than they do at outdoor longer distances). I don't like working with glue and solvents (probably because I'm usually inept with them), so the GasPro/Elivane solution is a welcome set of recently new vane options


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

I've rarely had problems with spin wings, but when I do they do tend to get a bit mangled. A clearance issue is likely to crease or fold them, or possibly even tear holes through them. Oddly enough they will still group well enough from a well tuned bow with a broken wing or two - just not on the shot that breaks them (this cost me an end in a head to head). I tend to move to feathers for indoors but spinwings have been on every set of outdoor arrows I've owned.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> Knowing some of the history and your shooting level (from your posts and questions (many have been good questions by the way)) My first inclination / response would be..
> 
> "If you have to ask, at this level, Probably not worth the trouble"
> "if you think it's going to gain you 5-10 points per end, I doubt it will and definitely not worth the trouble"
> ...


Thanks, I ordered a pack of spin wing vanes a while ago and I was thinking about putting them on in a couple of months but ill probably just save them for later because my plastifletch max's are holding up perfectly right now.


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## nifty (Jun 21, 2009)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> Are spin wing vanes that much better than say the AAE Plastifletch max vanes? Are spin wing vanes worth the trouble of needing to fix them that often?


Yep


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I like Spin Wings above all other vanes.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Spin wings have a proven track record. I find them easy to maintain. I hate messing around with glue it takes too long.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

DWAA Archer said:


> Spin wings have a proven track record. I find them easy to maintain. I hate messing around with glue it takes too long.


i have had my plastifletch vanes on my arrow for a couple around 3 weeks now, i have been shooting 18 meeters most of the time, and only one fletch has been ruined.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Wind Tunnel & flight comparison of Spin Wing/Gaspros here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705813010680/pdf?md5=3255be058d2b70fc5ee28181fce1e210&pid=1-s2.0-S1877705813010680-main.pdf

Pretty much agrees with lksseven's comments.


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## Regius (Oct 1, 2005)

In the past years a lot of Archers told me that the results are the points...
This is the score of the Italian Championship open: Nespoli, Frangilli and Galiazzo shooting with EliVanes, and the points are not bad...
http://www.fitarco-italia.org/gare/classifica.php?Codice=N1306046


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Regius said:


> In the past years a lot of Archers told me that the results are the points...
> This is the score of the Italian Championship open: Nespoli, Frangilli and Galiazzo shooting with EliVanes, and the points are not bad...
> http://www.fitarco-italia.org/gare/classifica.php?Codice=N1306046


From what I saw of the finals the ladies were clearly outperforming the men so perhaps it's their advice that should be sought 
Valeeva 30,30,28 to win gold...sheesh!


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## mf1ve (Jul 28, 2013)

Joe T said:


> Wind Tunnel & flight comparison of Spin Wing/Gaspros here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705813010680/pdf?md5=3255be058d2b70fc5ee28181fce1e210&pid=1-s2.0-S1877705813010680-main.pdf
> 
> Pretty much agrees with lksseven's comments.


Saved, printed, and I very much enjoyed this paper, thank you. Where do I go to find more papers such as this?


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

mf1ve said:


> Saved, printed, and I very much enjoyed this paper, thank you. Where do I go to find more papers such as this?


Well there's always Google etc.....
I try to maintain a general collection here Archery Bibliography
See under "arrows" for anything on arrows.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

Joe T said:


> Wind Tunnel & flight comparison of Spin Wing/Gaspros here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705813010680/pdf?md5=3255be058d2b70fc5ee28181fce1e210&pid=1-s2.0-S1877705813010680-main.pdf
> 
> Pretty much agrees with lksseven's comments.


That's a great article! 


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## mf1ve (Jul 28, 2013)

Joe T said:


> Well there's always Google etc.....
> I try to maintain a general collection here Archery Bibliography
> See under "arrows" for anything on arrows.


Thank you!


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Your problems with horizontal patterns at longer distances (other thread) tells me your tune and setup is 

not set up correctly,
Spine is not correct,
Tune process was not followed in order,
There's a problem with the consistency of your release or alignment upon release,

or some combination of all three above.

You deed to fix those before you will really see true benefit from a vane change.

Trying to correct poor very poor arrow flight will create new variables in your tuning process and actually may cause new symptoms.

While the spin wings or other types of fast spinning vanes will group better (as proven over and over), they will also cause more of a parachute affect if they are trying to correct real bad arrow flight which will lead to many other problems. especially as you get to longer distances.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> i have had my plastifletch vanes on my arrow for a couple around 3 weeks now, i have been shooting 18 meeters most of the time, and only one fletch has been ruined.


When I shoot a Fita 18 3 spot I have to shoot very badly to damage a spin-wing 

To be honest at short distance there is very little time for the vanes to do anything and if you are in the 1100's+ on a gents Fita outside, you will shoot want to shoot an indoor round that uses a 3 face target like on a Fita18 because vanes can be repaired Robin Hood's cost money, you will smash up your arrows at that level


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## davemmevad (Apr 11, 2012)

Also, to get back on the Spin wings vs Vanes topic...
I have wanted to like some form of spin wing, but for me, and my equipment, they simply do not shoot well. I am back on AAE Max vanes, because for me, they tune and group better. 
For the record, I'm using A/C/C's with a 30.5 inch draw, Border Limbs and about 45 on the fingers. Roughly a 1200 FITA. I spent a good 3 months messing with all sorts of spinners, and for me, while my core groups were about the same, they weren't consistent. More flyers, and the flyers were far worse. After spending all that time, I finally scraped them off, and glued my trusty vanes back on, reset the bow, and ... yup, back to shooting my normal groups and scores.

My theory is that then don't work with my larger, longer, heavier arrows - too much rotational mass, with too much of a diameter and that the arrow is overpowering the spin wing. 

I haven't given up on them, and still have quite a collection so when I invest in skinny light arrows this winter I'll start all over again. Max vanes, Wave vanes, and a couple different types of spinners, and will have to see what tunes best. 

Archery is an iterative process - you reach a certain level, then you experiment and pick the best. You improve, and you go back and re-experiment. It's a life sport, and a life-long process combined!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

davemmevad said:


> Also, to get back on the Spin wings vs Vanes topic...
> I have wanted to like some form of spin wing, but for me, and my equipment, they simply do not shoot well. I am back on AAE Max vanes, because for me, they tune and group better.
> For the record, I'm using A/C/C's with a 30.5 inch draw, Border Limbs and about 45 on the fingers. Roughly a 1200 FITA. I spent a good 3 months messing with all sorts of spinners, and for me, while my core groups were about the same, they weren't consistent. More flyers, and the flyers were far worse. After spending all that time, I finally scraped them off, and glued my trusty vanes back on, reset the bow, and ... yup, back to shooting my normal groups and scores.
> 
> ...


Dave,

Limbwalker's 32.5" draw and extremely long/heavy arrows would be a good backboard for your 'curled vane' experimentation. Here's a thread which contains a wealth of experiential knowledge/observations on the subject ... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2017142


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> Your problems with horizontal patterns at longer distances (other thread) tells me your tune and setup is
> 
> not set up correctly,
> Spine is not correct,
> ...


Okay so I will stick to the plastifletech max for a while. 

So what would be the best (proper) way to set up the bow? 
I can tell you right now I am shooting 660 spined A/C/G's and at full length with an extended clicker at around 37 pounds
To tune the arrows, I first lined up the string to make it in the center and then bareshaft tuned.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> I can tell you right now I am shooting 660 spined A/C/G's and at full length with an extended clicker at around 37 pounds
> To tune the arrows, I first lined up the string to make it in the center and then bareshaft tuned.


So this comment tells us you have not actually measured much or don't know how to.

Get with someone that can help you. Then get accurate measurements. Not guesses.

Amo draw length.
Weight on the fingers at full draw. 

Go through one of the setup/tuning guides. All have been referenced somewhere in one of your threads. Doesnt really matter which guide you use but select one, (i like the easton guide) start at the beginning and set up your bow following ALL the steps IN ORDER...

Write down all the results and measurements for future reference..

Since we are pretty sure your arrows may not be tunable. Get through basic setup and go shoot.

DC


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Remember that the ONLY reason for fletch is to correct user errors and stabilize flight...Nothing else. In fact, arrows with fletch are more prone to wind elements just by excess surface area that catches the wind, than without, and why small fletch is used for longer distances. 

Spin wings straighten out these errors quicker and provides less wind-usable surface area, making the arrow more efficient sooner as it goes downrange, by boring a hole through the air and pushing the turbulence to the sides (a tube) in a controlled manner. You can do the same thing with less hassle if you fletch helical or offset. 

But I'd work on your form first. The less user errors you have, the less you need fletch to compensate.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> So this comment tells us you have not actually measured much or don't know how to.
> 
> Get with someone that can help you. Then get accurate measurements. Not guesses.
> 
> ...


A week ago i measured my draw weight and it said i was 36.4 pounds.
and my draw length is 27"


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> A week ago i measured my draw weight and it said i was 36.4 pounds.


At what length? AMO please.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> A week ago i measured my draw weight and it said i was 36.4 pounds.
> and my draw length is 27"


Hmm edit after I replied..

Is that amo? Can you supply the rest of the particulars of your setup so we dont have to assume or guess at numbers.

Riser, limbs, equipment attached, etc.

Other wise any replies will all be based on lots of unknowns. Garbage in - garbage out.

DC


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> Hmm edit after I replied..
> 
> Is that amo? Can you supply the rest of the particulars of your setup so we dont have to assume or guess at numbers.
> 
> ...


25 inch riser. Medium limbs. 30 inch stabilizer, 12 inch side rods. Beiter plunger, shibuya sight. And yes that is amo length. 


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

rated poundage on limbs? Riser model? Limb type? I guess I need to ask also are the limb bolts all the way in, midway or out a ways.

Since I'm asking about the setup also, What process did you use or how did you "setup" your bow (all the particulars)? How was the centershot setup? What kind of rest? Where is the nock locator? Brace height? Tiller?. Did you check for "on Plane"? Is your sight elevation bar parallel to your string (this is in regards to the longer distance left/right question)? All we know from your earlier replies is that you made sure your string was centered on the limbs, the arrows are ACG 660 full length, (30.25"?) with aae vanes You are shooting a 68" bow with a measured 36.4# on the fingers and 27" AMO draw length. We have stabilizer setup, plunger, sight and clicker. 




DC


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

dchan, you have an incredible amount of patience, definitely an asset as a coach.

The question should be, are spin wings for everyone,.. no! They will not correct bad form or a miss tuned bow; however, a slower arrow with a 4-5" feather will as they are much more forgiving to these errors. The ability of the ancient feather to flex and correct has never been improved by man made materials, birds are quite successful in this regard. Beyond 30 mtr this can hinder an arrows flight in loss of speed, but still remain accurate with elevation correction.

Having tried vanes numerous times in the past forty years they are not for me, too much maintenance to outweigh their benefit. A hole in a vane can and often will cost points, although they sound cool! The slightest contact of a leaf or twig in the way on a 3D course will upset the vane much more than a feather. Back in the day of shooting 3D's with high poundage bows and 24" overdraw arrows, my choice was custom chopped low profile 3" feathers. At 320-330fps we never had problems reaching those unmarked 110 yard money shots due to shooting feathers. The need for speed days long gone the feathers benefit of forgiveness is still applicable. The question remains if the shooter is ready for spinnies.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> rated poundage on limbs? Riser model? Limb type? I guess I need to ask also are the limb bolts all the way in, midway or out a ways.
> 
> Since I'm asking about the setup also, What process did you use or how did you "setup" your bow (all the particulars)? How was the centershot setup? What kind of rest? Where is the nock locator? Brace height? Tiller?. Did you check for "on Plane"? Is your sight elevation bar parallel to your string (this is in regards to the longer distance left/right question)? All we know from your earlier replies is that you made sure your string was centered on the limbs, the arrows are ACG 660 full length, (30.25"?) with aae vanes You are shooting a 68" bow with a measured 36.4# on the fingers and 27" AMO draw length. We have stabilizer setup, plunger, sight and clicker.
> 
> ...


The poundage on the bow are rated 36 pounds, sf elite plus limbs, forged plus riser, the limb bolts are half way in. I use a shibuy ultima rest, the brace height is 8.5. the braceheight is around 7 1/8th and i do not know how to check if the elevation bar is parrallel to the string. yes I did check for the "plane" and used the thread that was posted by limbwalker. my arrow is slightly to the left or the string but the sight aperature is far left of the string.

I hope this is enough information and thank you for having so much patients


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## Ranger 50 (Mar 2, 2012)

Could you clarify your brace height? You have 2 different measurements. 8.5" is good. 7 1/8" sounds too low.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Something sounds a little off..

If your AMO draw is 27". the limb bolts about half way, rated DW is 36, you should be lower not higher than 36# measured on the fingers. What measurement did you take for DL? bottom of nock grove to ?

It's possible that the rated or marked DW is off a little. It's also possible that the limb riser combo just comes in high. Someone with more experience with those MFG limb/riser combo may chime in..

Yes. your response has 2 BH's listed. 8.5 is probably the lower side of the range. 68" bow could be closer to 9" BH but that's a shoot it and listen tuning process.

7 1/8 might be a tiller measurement but unless you are "neutral tiller" generally there are 2 measurements. Upper and lower, or some people list this as "1/8" positive" or something like that.

Going back to the new numbers we have. sounds like you need to go through the first part of bow setup, Select and read one of the setup tuning guides we have posted and go through IN ORDER the steps at least through checking for nock height and centershot.
Then do a clearance check to make sure you are not impacting the vanes. 

Then just go shoot more. I suspect your arrows are tuning stiff but that's not the end of the world yet.. 

DC


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> my arrow is slightly to the left or the string but the sight aperature is far left of the string.


If everything is lined up and your sight aperture is far left of the string for you to hit center, then your arrows are too stiff and the bow is throwing them left ( as it should). If you arrows are spined correctly, the sight aperture should be exactly above the arrow and on the string. 




dchan said:


> Something sounds a little off..
> 
> If your AMO draw is 27". the limb bolts about half way, rated DW is 36, you should be lower not higher than 36# measured on the fingers.
> DC


Also correct. 


Chris


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> Something sounds a little off..
> 
> If your AMO draw is 27". the limb bolts about half way, rated DW is 36, you should be lower not higher than 36# measured on the fingers. What measurement did you take for DL? bottom of nock grove to ?
> 
> ...


I measured my draw length again and it said it was 28 inches not 27. I measured the draw length from the nock grove to te plunger. 

So for the brace height, how should the bow sound?
Is centershot just setting the arrow on the outside
Of the string by a little and having the string center down the bow? 


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Please read my sticky thread. (have asked in the past) 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2037374

Specifically about measurements Setup and measurements


from the initial post..
=========================


Draw weight at what draw length. Calculated or measured..

NOTE: Draw length is measured from bottom of nock grove to the pivot point (where the web of your palm presses into the grip) +1.75"
NOTE: For best results draw weight should be measured with a scale but calculations are better than nothing.

String info should include type, strands, serving type, nock type.

Other setup info that is helpful, Brace height, tiller, nock height, exact brands if possible.

Arrow info for more technical questions should include make/model/spine. Length of arrow, Point type/weight. Nock type.


=========================================

Easton Archery has a setup tune guide that works well.

http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downloads/software/tuning_guide.pdf

DO pages 1-5 and page 6 without the paper tuning. 

This much will get you as close as you will get with arrows that are outside your "tune window"

DC


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> If everything is lined up and your sight aperture is far left of the string for you to hit center, then your arrows are too stiff and the bow is throwing them left ( as it should). If you arrows are spined correctly, the sight aperture should be exactly above the arrow and on the string.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I tried to tune some carbon ones spines at 600 with 28.75 inches and 120 grain point, I set the plunger to te softest and the bare shafts were still hitting far left and the aperture was far right, so I do not think that the aperture is far left because the spine is to stiff. 


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> I measured my draw length again and it said it was 28 inches not 27. I measured the draw length from the nock grove to te plunger.
> 
> So for the brace height, how should the bow sound?
> Is centershot just setting the arrow on the outside
> ...


So according your previous post. your AMO DL would not be 27 but about 28.75".

According to this latest post of 28" nock grove to plunger (assuming you are using the rear plunger) your AMO Draw length would be 29.75" (28" to plunger which is generally just about the same as pivot point on the grip + 1.75"=29.75)

BH is suggested to be starting at lowest MFG recommends and slowly raise by twisting string until the bow feels smoothest and quietest. (stated in the easton tuning guide)
Centershot is also shown in the easton tuning guide along with pictures.

AGAIN READ the resources.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> When I tried to tune some carbon ones spines at 600 with 28.75 inches and 120 grain point, I set the plunger to te softest and the bare shafts were still hitting far left and the aperture was far right, so I do not think that the aperture is far left because the spine is to stiff.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk - now Free


Tuning is a lot more than just setting a couple of items randomly from the list, trying it and then proclaiming "I tuned my bow" 

You have to Start with a basic setup. (the whole setup process) and go through each step of the tuning process and record the results. When you make a change anywhere along the process you need to go back and recheck all the previous steps to make sure they did not change due to the adjustment.

It's not glamorous or the most fun (for some people). It takes time, patience and very consistent form. It takes time away from shooting (which is why I keep telling you to get the basic setup done and then go shoot). Right now you need to work on shooting more than anything else. errors in form will just throw off any tuning you are attempting.

And to reiterate.. in this case, Tuning is WAY OVER RATED.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> When I tried to tune some carbon ones spines at 600 with 28.75 inches and 120 grain point, I set the plunger to the softest and the bare shafts were still hitting far left and the aperture was far right, so I do not think that the aperture is far left because the spine is to stiff.
> now Free


You can also have false tuning reads from clearance issues, incorrect bow setup and inconsistent releases. 

If you are in the 32-35lb range, 600s are too stiff. I shoot 500s spine with a 27.5 inch draw at 46lbs. I shoot 550s at 42lbs. I would shoot 600s at 38lbs. I would shoot 700s at 35lbs and would shoot 800s at 32lbs. 

and your aperture is far left to move your aiming point more to the right. If you put your aperture dead above the arrow and string, your arrows will go way left which is arrows too stiff or your release is such a pluck its sending the arrow there. either way, arrows flying too stiff from your release. 

I do agree, that perhaps in this case as Dchan said, you are better off to shoot for a while and get more consistency before attempting more tuning. 

Chris


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

dchan said:


> Tuning is a lot more than just setting a couple of items randomly from the list, trying it and then proclaiming "I tuned my bow"
> 
> You have to Start with a basic setup. (the whole setup process) and go through each step of the tuning process and record the results. When you make a change anywhere along the process you need to go back and recheck all the previous steps to make sure they did not change due to the adjustment.
> 
> ...


Coach Dchan your are the best! As you know, after 2 days and Viper's help, I had my arrows and bare bow tuned as close as perfect as possible at 20yds...pics attached to prove it. 







. 

Then today, everything was hitting left. Checked my form=seemed okay. Checked my brace = okay. Next thought was to adjust my spring to bring them back the easy way - affectionately called, 'tuning cheating'. Set up the Iphone with Slo Pro camera and quickly found out, that because I am feeling tired and my bow is about 2-3lbs over my comfort zone, I was collapsing *ever *so slightly. 

FORM FIRST!

DANG~!!!!!!!!


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

bradd7 said:


> Remember that the ONLY reason for fletch is to correct user errors and stabilize flight...Nothing else. In fact, arrows with fletch are more prone to wind elements just by excess surface area that catches the wind, than without, and why small fletch is used for longer distances.
> 
> Spin wings straighten out these errors quicker and provides less wind-usable surface area, making the arrow more efficient sooner as it goes downrange, by boring a hole through the air and pushing the turbulence to the sides (a tube) in a controlled manner. You can do the same thing with less hassle if you fletch helical or offset.
> 
> But I'd work on your form first. The less user errors you have, the less you need fletch to compensate.


Forgive me, Brad, but I've followed your story on this forum and you often speak of not having shot in 40 years. You tell of starting up again a few years ago indoors and told us of your very basic equipment. There is no way you've ever used a Spin-Wing or any other Mylar vane. For you to speak of them is dishonest at best. To suggest a simple helical fletch is essentially the same thing without the hassle makes me laugh. It must make others scratch their heads too. I further bet a million dollars you've never shot a full FITA or even know what one is.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Oh but you`d be wrong Stone Bridge. First off I only shared the difference between tuning and form.

Yes I shot FITA long range when I was younger, but didn't like it so much, so I concentrated (on my coach's advice) on indoors. And then, after less than a year of practice after 44 years away, I placed 2nd in Ontario in Masters Barebow, using vanes on Easton Jazz 1716 arrows that I had picked up a couple of days before, because I had broken or bent all of the ones I usually used.

What we are talking about now is form over tuning first, as there is no way to tune unless form is in place, and adjustments to compensate for bad groups are too easy when form is bad. 

What this has all taught me, and how I contribute, is that form must be as good as possible, then tune again when it's better...and keep going until both are as perfect as possible. 

As for spin wings, no I have never used them extensively, but I have tried them, and I have already suggested that offset or helical might be basically the same, as the fletch's only job is to correct user errors...nothing more.

Lastly, through tuning I have found that the arrows I am using are slightly too stiff for consistency (1916s), even though the charts, calculators and software all suggest this setup...but my form isn't equal to the arrow at times...very little forgiveness. Sooooo....now that I only have 3 of these left broken and bent from hits close hits, and I am lowering my bow weight so that I can concentrate on form more, and have 1816s with Nibbs (as per Vipers recommendations) waiting at my shop ready to start the tuning process all over...for my current level of experience. AND, I have a set of 2" plastic helical, 3 and 4" feathers to test for tightest groups....yes the weight of the fletch matters, and with good form I can shoot both.

Bottom line, if I don't know what I am doing from the coaches I had when younger, as tuning was an inheritable part of shooting with fiberglass bows, then I'll never know. IE: Before you tune, set your spring at full stiff and take off your sight. Then practice with bare shafts as they won't let form lie.

BTW: The arrows you see in the pic have 3, 4 and 5" feathers. No difference at 20 yards other than I had to aim slightly right for the 5", but after that, who knows how good my form is? Fletch will only either make it worse or better.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> You can also have false tuning reads from clearance issues, incorrect bow setup and inconsistent releases.
> 
> If you are in the 32-35lb range, 600s are too stiff. I shoot 500s spine with a 27.5 inch draw at 46lbs. I shoot 550s at 42lbs. I would shoot 600s at 38lbs. I would shoot 700s at 35lbs and would shoot 800s at 32lbs.
> 
> ...


well right now i am using ACGs at 32.25 inches with 120 grain points and 660 spined. I measured my draw weight with a easton bow weight measuring tool and it came out at 36.4 and 36.2 pounds. Do you think that would be too stiff for my bow?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

the 660s should spine in closer than the 600 carbons. Your arrows are very long and that would help but why are you shooting such long arrows if your draw is 27 inches? 

Thats alot of arrow for your draw. 


Chris


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> the 660s should spine in closer than the 600 carbons. Your arrows are very long and that would help but why are you shooting such long arrows if your draw is 27 inches?
> 
> Thats alot of arrow for your draw.
> 
> ...


Im worried that if I cut the arrows, they will become to stiff. So will they be too stiff if I cut the arrows?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Hi, hard to say. Are they spined in now? are they weak? 


Chris


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> Hi, hard to say. Are they spined in now? are they weak?
> 
> 
> Chris


Well, they are able to shoot with the same group as the bareshafts but the sight is very far to the left. Also my beiter plunger is using a medium spring at 6.9


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

I know young males are hard to get through to and generally you have to repeat yourself several times before it starts to sink in, but this is getting ridiculous.

I admire your passion to try to figure this out but...

dyl,

IF you truly want help from all the people that have tried to assist you here... 

You really need to sit down and read the documents several of us have pointed in your direction. You NEED to go through all the steps and processes, RECORD EVERYTHING. If you don't know how to take the measurements we have outlined, get with someone that does, bite the bullet and pay them if necessary show you the process. Every time we try to get you to do this, you do one or 2 things, often with different results, and then ask the same question.

The fact that your sight is very far to the left says something is wrong with your setup. Center shot is off, arrow too stiff, release is bad, something.. . The fact that your stated DL changed from 27 to 28 and then you revealed that you measured from nock grove to plunger to get that measurement tells us you have not read all of the information we have posted and pointed out to you. You stated that it was AMO and yet you were unaware of how to measure DL properly.

the fact that the measured DW is almost .6lbs higher the rated DW on the limbs (which has changed several times as well by the way) , and that the limb bolts are about half way in, tell us you are at least at 28" of AMO Draw but probably a bit more.

The only "test" that I can see from all your posts that you have done is try to shoot bare shafts and see if they stay in the group. You stated what plunger spring you are currently using which tells me you have been playing with plunger pressure. Centershot adjustment and shot testing is generally done with a "hard" plunger. stick a match stick in place of the spring and check arrow flight. (no plunger movement) If you have not done this yet, then another proof that you are just trying things without any "process"

I have not seen any mention from you if you tried doing any clearance checks. 

As an extreme example of using only bare shaft tests without looking at impact or arrow flight, Given a little bit of time (15-20 Minutes) I can probably make my 10lb bow shoot 700 spine arrows and a bareshaft into the same group at 18M by changing the centershot and plunger pressure. The arrow flight would be horrible. I would probably be running out of space on my sight pin to keep the arrows on the target. I probably would have to do something strange to my release (intentional pluck and shoot without a tab) or change my anchor so the string lines up in some strange place, and the arrows would probably land nock way left but they would be in a group.

The fact that the arrows are in a group tell me you are doing something consistent and that's A good thing.. hang on to that. Be proud of that..

If I were actually coaching you in person, I would be telling you to stop worrying about the tune and arrows. I would be celebrating the groups you are shooting. If you were wanting to shoot longer distances I would just tell you to count how many turns you need to make on your sight to get the arrows in the middle of the target at each distance, Record that and just keep shooting (just remember to make the adjustment when you change distances).. When you break enough arrows or lose enough arrows to need to purchase new arrows, then revisit the spine issue before you purchase. Odds are things will have changed. You may have gone up in weight. You may grow? You may changed your anchor, etc..

If you were in my club, I might even hand you a set of carbon impacts or alloy arrows that are closer spined and then tell you to go shoot and stop worrying about the tune.

Since we are still missing most of the other particulars on setup, most of the rest of our guesses would be based on poor data.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> Well, they are able to shoot with the same group as the bareshafts but the sight is very far to the left. Also my beiter plunger is using a medium spring at 6.9


If everything is lined up and your sight aperture is far left of the string for you to hit center, then something in the tune is wrong.


plunger spring is moot. 


Chris


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Could it be? Eye dominance issue, as a righty with dominate left eye I had this problem until switching.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dchan said:


> In Light of so many requests for "recommendations" I thought this thread might help.
> 
> First of all AMO or Archery Manufacturers and Merchants Organization put out a document that has all the "Standards" that we as archers use. They used to be at www.amo-archery.org but that website seems to now be a search portal.
> 
> ...


Eye dominance? Could be.. Good question..

The above is from the first post in my thread about what helps when asking for guidance. 

Now if we could get all the right info we would have a better idea.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> If everything is lined up and your sight aperture is far left of the string for you to hit center, then something in the tune is wrong.
> 
> 
> plunger spring is moot.
> ...


What do you think could cause the problem? 
I alligned everything and used the easton tuning guide and started from the very front and went step by step. Then when I started to tune, i had to move my plunger in so it would be center, orelse the aperature wouldnt have enough length to be moved out enough in order to hit the center.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> Eye dominance? Could be.. Good question..
> 
> The above is from the first post in my thread about what helps when asking for guidance.
> 
> Now if we could get all the right info we would have a better idea.


No, I am positive I am a righty and am right eye dominant. When I close my left eye and aim, the arrow hits the same place.

I also followed all of the procedures in the Easton Tuning guide and the same thing happened Well i havent done the clearance check yet, i will do that the next time i shoot.

Also I do not think it is my release, I had someone take pictures for me really fast (ofcoures it took many many tries to get the right picture) so it would capture just the right moment to see how the release was and it showed no plucking or stiff release.

I do not know what exactly half way out is, but at the very end of the limb bolt, the limbs are around 3mm from the limb bolts


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> well right now i am using ACGs at 32.25 inches with 120 grain points and 660 spined. I measured my draw weight with a easton bow weight measuring tool and it came out at 36.4 and 36.2 pounds. Do you think that would be too stiff for my bow?


That would be a neat trick or did they change the specification of the ACG? Easton lists the ACG 660 as a stock length of 30.75


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Did you actually do an eye dominance test?


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

Sorry had to ask as eye dominance has been known to change as well ie; even equal out. Having lost most of my vision in right eye I still wear a blinder with 1/16" holes randomly drilled to get perfect vision. My last eye exam for cornial scarring involved a macular degeneration test by looking through a perforated disk, vision cleared right up.

Back to tuning,with bolts at lightest setting count revolutions until bottomed out. Six turns to bottom back out three for midpoint of adjustment. While tuning some full length shafts this summer of variable spine ( tapered) I was showing a false stiff condition during tuning. I cut 1/2" at a time and the false reading went away then showing weak. Whole different ball game tuning a shaft that starts at .550 spine in the front and ends at nock end with a .720 spine though. Your .660 spine shafts are just that at 28" at 32 1/4" they would spine in the neighborhood of at least .800 given your point weight. Here is what cutting 1/2" does to your dynamic spine.











And after cutting 1/2" off.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> Did you actually do an eye dominance test?


Yes I did, and it showed me as right eye dominant.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

w8lon said:


> Sorry had to ask as eye dominance has been known to change as well ie; even equal out. Having lost most of my vision in right eye I still wear a blinder with 1/16" holes randomly drilled to get perfect vision. My last eye exam for cornial scarring involved a macular degeneration test by looking through a perforated disk, vision cleared right up.
> 
> Back to tuning,with bolts at lightest setting count revolutions until bottomed out. Six turns to bottom back out three for midpoint of adjustment. While tuning some full length shafts this summer of variable spine ( tapered) I was showing a false stiff condition during tuning. I cut 1/2" at a time and the false reading went away then showing weak. Whole different ball game tuning a shaft that starts at .550 spine in the front and ends at nock end with a .720 spine though. Your .660 spine shafts are just that at 28" at 32 1/4" they would spine in the neighborhood of at least .800 given your point weight. Here is what cutting 1/2" does to your dynamic spine.
> View attachment 1770190
> ...


So would you recommend cutting the arrow? 
Do you know why there was a false stiff reading for you? So what do you think is causing my problem? And what do you suggest I do?


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> That would be a neat trick or did they change the specification of the ACG? Easton lists the ACG 660 as a stock length of 30.75


Sorry, I dont quite understand what you are referring to as a neat trick.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> Sorry, I dont quite understand what you are referring to as a neat trick.


A stock arrow (uncut) is only 30.75" long so how do you get an arrow that is measured as 32.5.

Arrows are measured from the nock grove to the end of the shaft. This is also in my thread about what to include. It is also in the AMO standards document.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

dchan said:


> A stock arrow (uncut) is only 30.75" long so how do you get an arrow that is measured as 32.5.
> 
> Arrows are measured from the nock grove to the end of the shaft. This is also in my thread about what to include. It is also in the AMO standards document.


Im probably like a quarter of an inch off. So if it is from the nock grove to the end of the shaft it is around 31.5


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

.25? you earlier said 32.5. now its 31.5" if you are using easton components the distance from nock grove to nock end of the shaft can be as small as ..2" which would be closer to 31" which 1.5" difference and that is huge when talkng dynamic spine. 

As to your question what to do?.

At this pont stop worrying about the tune and shoot. If you have a need to spend some money find a coach and shoot more. 

DC


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

And I was in error. I thought I had put in my now sticky thread the proper way to measure arrows but I was mistaken. This has been remedied.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

After finished reading Kim, HyunkTak’s Archery book several times on “Aligning and tuning the recurve bow” (page 190- 226), I like to share my understanding what is cause of sight pin far to the left. 

1. The draw weight (on finger) and arrow length (or draw length) is used roughly to determine the arrow spine. Different equipment setup or form will tune bow differently. 
2. In my case, my draw weight is 36# on finger and using ACG 660 (T5) arrow uncut with 30.75 inches. Based on the Easton selection chart, the arrow is simply too weak. If I need to use 30.75 inches arrow, the Easton group is T8 which is much stiffer than T5. This is the fundamental cause.
3. I follow most of the tuning guide previously but skip few steps. 
a. I skip paper tuning because I did not set up paper tuning.
b. I skip also short distance fine tuning (page 214) and fine tuning (page 218) and long distance grouping (page 221). As book mentioned, do not expect better result than archer can reasonably achieve. 
4. So in fact, I primary did the bare shaft test.
i. Since the arrow spine is weak, I did not follow page 212 completely (Step 2: cut arrow and Step 3 reduce arrow point weight), I increase the spring pressure of the plunger. Since the arrow is too weak, spring pressure is increased a lot to make the fletched and unfletched group together.
ii. Due to increase of spring pressure, the fletched arrow will fly to the left of the target instead of center. To correct it, the sight needs to be adjusted to the left.

Before I reread the book, I called Easton directly. Before I mentioned my draw weight and arrow length, they immediately tell me that the arrow is too weak. After further discussion, they recommend to cut it a little short to try it out then further cut arrow if required. They can’t recommend any magic formula to decide the arrow length.

Hopefully, this is useful for future reference without going too much data points. (In this case, two data points draw length and uncut arrow shaft length are enough.)


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> After finished reading Kim, HyunkTak’s Archery book several times on “Aligning and tuning the recurve bow” (page 190- 226), I like to share my understanding what is cause of sight pin far to the left.
> 
> 1. The draw weight (on finger) and arrow length (or draw length) is used roughly to determine the arrow spine. Different equipment setup or form will tune bow differently.
> 2. In my case, my draw weight is 36# on finger and using ACG 660 (T5) arrow uncut with 30.75 inches. Based on the Easton selection chart, the arrow is simply too weak. If I need to use 30.75 inches arrow, the Easton group is T8 which is much stiffer than T5. This is the fundamental cause.
> ...


I'm pleased to hear you were determined enough to see this through and now have a better understanding.

Skipping parts of the tuning process may drastically affect the outcome of a tuning session. The exception to this is the "paper tuning" While paper tuning tells us how the arrow is flying, seeing how they end in the target or if you can watch the arrow flight will also tell us how the arrow is flying.. So by saying "I only skipped xyz step" you are introducing a lot of variables. 

Actually there are three primary things that determine "general" spine selection. weight on the fingers and Arrow length (not draw length) and type of bow. (long bow, recurve, or compound (and what type of cams/wheels)) and these all need to be as accurate as possible. Any "unknowns" of these 3 things make most "suggestions" just a guess.

These 3 things will get you close. Ballistic's programs like TAP, will get you closer.

Tuning will complete the process but your form needs to be consistent in order to really tune.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

How do you do paper tuning of spin wing?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> How do you do paper tuning of spin wing?


you dont. I dont know any olympic recurve shooters who use paper tuning with or without spin wings. They all use bareshaft tuning. With arrow paradox for recurve, you can have a bullet hole and move the paper two feet and have a 2 inch tear. 

Chris


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