# Controversial arrow call in pro range at asa??



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Interesting...

Who else beside Griggs was in his group?


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Ding ,ding we have a winner


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## bishjr (Aug 1, 2008)

If I remember correctly, Bowjunky mentioned a major switch in the works on a recent podcast. I figured this was what they were talking about, but that would be interesting if this is the case.


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## threelakes (Oct 10, 2010)

curious why the switch over a arrow call.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Maybe the call was a 50 50 and one made the shoot off and one didn't


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## iwannahoyt93 (Dec 13, 2011)

Idk on truballs post with him a couple guys were talking about it but didnt say much


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

Well it was like 5 of them tied for 5th place went on 12s so one arrow ment a lot of $$


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Personally, I can't see Jeff making a switch to TRU Ball over a arrow call. I mean, the call comes from scorers in the group, not a manufacturer....


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Lol


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

bishjr said:


> If I remember correctly, Bowjunky mentioned a major switch in the works on a recent podcast. I figured this was what they were talking about, but that would be interesting if this is the case.


I'm guessing that is Paul Tedford switching to Elite from Hoyt.


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## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

Elite greasing a few ASA palms?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

We have only heard one side of the story so far. It's not like Jeff to get all bent out of shape for no reason though either. :noidea:


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

this comment has not merit or support. No, I do not shoot an Elite



Pincher said:


> Elite greasing a few ASA palms?


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Well 3 people in my group said Shane Auman had a 12, but I said he had a 5 lol...... because, I was picking at Shane and we were all having fun. the way it is supposed to be!!!


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## Paradox (Nov 7, 2002)

Bow Junky ‏@Bowjunky9 1h
ASA to implement an official on final day of scoring for Pro classes. All discrepancies will be ruled by ASA official #goodnews


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I heard that tmorelli.....had something to do with it.......but dont everyone go and ask him.......hell deny it


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> I heard that tmorelli.....had something to do with it.......but dont everyone go and ask him.......hell deny it


Good idea. I'm sending him a PM now. lain:


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## skiisme753 (Jan 15, 2013)

Bowjunky podcast is up. Entire podcast about it with an interview with Levi who was in the group.

http://bowjunky.podbean.com/2014/03/05/junkyard-talk-pc29/


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## hoytalphamax (Jan 26, 2009)

One would think Eric's wife should tone her comment downs on FB..Seems really unprofessional to me...IMO she shouldn't even be making comments period.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

skiisme753 said:


> Bowjunky podcast is up. Entire podcast about it with an interview with Levi who was in the group.
> 
> http://bowjunky.podbean.com/2014/03/05/junkyard-talk-pc29/


It was a good one


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## genohuh (Mar 14, 2010)

Hoytalphamax Jen Griggs never ever said anything out of the way!! All she said was the Podcast should shut some up. Meaning rumors! Jen is a ASA member and has every right to Voice her Opinion! Wich she didnt!! You cant please everyone!!!


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's nice to have BJ covering this sort of stuff. Very interesting to hear the pros take on things. I would like to hear all 4's comments.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

There was an unfortunate controversial call that was significant. Let's just let it ride among those involved and avoid stirring up further issues.


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

rsw said:


> There was an unfortunate controversial call that was significant. Let's just let it ride among those involved and avoid stirring up further issues.


Agree


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

rsw said:


> There was an unfortunate controversial call that was significant. Let's just let it ride among those involved and avoid stirring up further issues.


Agree......


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

genohuh said:


> Hoytalphamax Jen Griggs never ever said anything out of the way!! All she said was the Podcast should shut some up. Meaning rumors! Jen is a ASA member and has every right to Voice her Opinion! Wich she didnt!! You cant please everyone!!!


Well said!!! Do you really think that this incident isn't weighing on the minds of ALL involved. That final group of 4 guys on Sunday has a LOT of years of PROFESSIONAL experience under their belts. They have shot with each other for a long time. I guarantee you that none of them envisioned the day ending like it did and I'm sure it's very frustrating to ALL of them.


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

Just because they are PROS doesn't mean they are "PROFESSIONAL"


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> I heard that tmorelli.....had something to do with it.......but dont everyone go and ask him.......hell deny it


Now I get the other joke. 

I was avoiding this thread. 

I think the official disputed-arrow-settler is a good thing. I'm not exactly sure why an arrow on Sunday deserves a look from an official that it doesn't on Saturday....

On the calling thing, everyone who plays this game has walked away from a target feeling slighted by a call. It's the world we live in.... we shoot at flexible rubber things with molded in lines of varying quality and condition. Calling gets subjective even in the absense of competitive people. 

I understand that these guys play at much higher stakes than I do but I sure hate to see an arrow call divide people and companies. You win some, you lose some, you go on.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> ... On the calling thing, everyone who plays this game has walked away from a target feeling slighted by a call. It's the world we live in.... we shoot at flexible rubber things with molded in lines of varying quality and condition. Calling gets subjective even in the absense of competitive people.
> 
> I understand that these guys play at much higher stakes than I do but I sure hate to see an arrow call divide people and companies. You win some, you lose some, you go on.


Very well said.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Now I get the other joke.
> 
> I was avoiding this thread.
> 
> ...


I gotta agree there, if it is important on Sunday, why not Saturday? I mean, they only shoot 40 arrows, so aren't they all important?


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

Being new to the sport, I'm baffled by the lack of official scoring and officiating. What other sport out there allows the competitors to police and score themselves? IMO, put a staffed judge at each target or with each group. They alone call all arrows and record scores.


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## alligood729 (Mar 25, 2007)

rsw said:


> There was an unfortunate controversial call that was significant. Let's just let it ride among those involved and avoid stirring up further issues.


This. The podcast was very interesting...heck I was there and missed all of it..


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## darksidemxer (Feb 2, 2013)

So cuz i live under a rock and i am just getting into 3d from nfaa field, what is the break down of this incident? Why is some1 switch "teams" over this?


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

We tried sanding the last 4 inches of our arrows just to see if it would suck the line when you shoot 40 shots at a 1.5 circle 1 or 2 twelves make a huge difference. Our last shot was a javalina it had a whole at the top of the twelve and into bottom of the 11 three arrows in the lower 11 on a new target would be tens in a shot up target all were 12's I just wish one was mine. I love it when guys say if the hole was not there if is a big word. If the fine was in there arrow may have stayed . There is a system of scoring that works is it perfect no but I love this game. Will a official scorer fix every thing No. It's a judgement call it's verys from group to group and as the targets get holes


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

I listened to the podcast and Levi mentioned the 12 ring area was shot up. You would sure think that there would be good inserts in them animals and the calls would be easier to make. Maybe at the pro level where there is so much at stake,someone should be looking at the shorter shot inserts and make sure there there fresh and the lines show good. I shoot in the Super Senior class and I shot with a gentleman that had a good idea.When there was a very close call on an arrow, the guys arrow in question was ask to turn the other way, then the other 3 would show hands on in or out and the shooter never new who voted one way or the other. Then nothing personnal ever got involved.Once in awhile u get a guy that calls them way to close or lose or he just can't see good but the majority rule is usually the fair outcome. I always felt treated fairly this way.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

IrregularPulse said:


> Being new to the sport, I'm baffled by the lack of official scoring and officiating. What other sport out there allows the competitors to police and score themselves? IMO, put a staffed judge at each target or with each group. They alone call all arrows and record scores.


Golf does I believe.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

draw29 said:


> I listened to the podcast and Levi mentioned the 12 ring area was shot up. You would sure think that there would be good inserts in them animals and the calls would be easier to make. Maybe at the pro level where there is so much at stake,someone should be looking at the shorter shot inserts and make sure there there fresh and the lines show good. .


That's something I noticed in the podcast as well. It seems like target quality should be put in the discussion AGAIN here because if nobody can see the line how can someone call it in or out?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Supermag1 said:


> That's something I noticed in the podcast as well. It seems like target quality should be put in the discussion AGAIN here because if nobody can see the line how can someone call it in or out?


You've got to call it one way or another. It's a judgement call.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

A couple of range judges on Saturday and Sunday on the Pro courses is a great idea, though the pro's may not like it in the long run. If it is anything like the NFAA judges, they call it much tighter. I have shot in some of the team shoots and they pro's are much more liberal in their scoring than we amateurs.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

On the new rule:

You should be able to call the range official to come down and call your arrow and if it is in then you still have the right to call for the range official the rest of the weekend but when you call the range official and he says it is out then you are done for the weekend and can no longer ask.

It can also be handled on all ranges by the current range officials, they have plenty of down time and other than fixing a leaning target they don't have to much to do.

There could be a small box on the score card for the range official to check if a guy challenges a call and it is called out so the official knows not to call his arrow again.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In the last two years I have been groups where there was a guy who had a huge personality that sucked the points out of everyone in the group, I find that many times nobody is willing to stand up to them. This kind of guy usually makes a blanket statement "I refuse to give anyone anything" or "If it isn't 100 % in it is out". Usually this kind of guy in the lower classes sucks and has a chip on his shoulder, unfortunately most of the time their personalities are so big that it takes a strong group to over ride it. 

This is why I loved levi morgans outlook on calling arrows where he talked about the beliefs that if you can't call it out it is in. I think more guys in the lower ranks need to hear the mentality of the semi pro and pro shooters and then at the lower ranks scoring would run much smoother.

1. If you can see meat in between the arrow then it is out.

2. If you can't call it out then it is in.

The first one is what you use early in the weekend on almost every call because the foam is fresh and you can see the lines and you have line pulling and connectors to look at. The second one is later in the weekend when there are holes and chunks missing and many times no lines left and then you have to be more creative. In the end siding on the shooters side instead of taking away from him just because you are afraid to loose is weak.

I got beat in open a by a guy that I have coached on hinge shooting here in the last year, I have a buddy that gives me a hard time because I am helping people that are now beating me. To me by keeping my knowledge to myself and not sharing and helping others is no different than calling a guy out when he shot a great shot and pulled the line and there is no meat. I refuse to be a weak minded person and that is why I am a "MAN" and many guys are just guys.


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

shootist said:


> Golf does I believe.


Good point, but when playing professional golf there are TV crews around and it's slightly easier to count the number of times a guy swings a club.


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## ba3darcher (Jan 13, 2005)

Padgett- to the guy you shot with that says if its "not 100% in it out" is totally bass ackwards, if it 99% out it is 1% in.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

ba3darcher said:


> Padgett- to the guy you shot with that says if its "not 100% in it out" is totally bass ackwards,* if it 99% out it is 1% in.*


Which means it's 100% to the higher score.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I know, in florida this year I worked on a guy like this all weekend and by sunday half way through the day I think he started coming around but the damage had been done to the group. I think he just needed to hear my thoughts on scoring presented all weekend and the fact that coming to a asa is special and getting 12's is very hard and when you make a great shot and after everyone stares at it for 30 seconds to a minute because it is so stinking close that you simply can't tell if it is out or in you just make the choice that it is in because you can't call it out.

He didn't apologize to the group but I could tell after spending a weekend with me a guy that truely praised him for shooting good and totally wanted him to get the most out of the weekend made a difference in him. He came up to me in Fort Benning and said hi with a big smile on his face and I talked to him and asked how good was he shooting the course and I even said are the calls going your way and he just grinned. 

It is amazing the difference we can make if we choose to be a man and work with people, yeah it sucked to loose some 12's in our group as a whole but in the end hopefully he changed.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

What I don't understand is that the few times I went to an ASA shoot there was a range official there that was to call any disputes????? Am I right? That is what I was always told....That's what confuses me


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

3dbowmaster said:


> What I don't understand is that the few times I went to an ASA shoot there was a range official there that was to call any disputes????? Am I right? That is what I was always told....That's what confuses me


There is a range official. He plays no role in arrow calls.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> There is a range official. He plays no role in arrow calls.


Well I know one of the times I was there, there was a dispute and the range official came and called the arrow and acted as if it was part of what he did....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

3dbowmaster said:


> Well I know one of the times I was there, there was a dispute and the range official came and called the arrow and acted as if it was part of what he did....


He should not have. From the rules....

_Should the Scorers be unable to reach an agreement, the Scorekeepers (except on 
a call of their own arrow) will alternate the responsibility of making the final determination before any arrows are 
removed. Groups will be responsible for calling their own arrows. ASA Range Officials will not make arrow calls 
except when a group has only two shooters or during special competitions and shoot-offs. . _


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## kward598 (Sep 25, 2002)

Supermag1 said:


> That's something I noticed in the podcast as well. It seems like target quality should be put in the discussion AGAIN here because if nobody can see the line how can someone call it in or out?


Totally agree here, the quality is not what it once was for these targets. Some targets wouldn't stay together. If they are painted after the first group you have a different sight picture. I was pulling arrows and noticed paint flecks on the arrows about an inch back from where they were in the target! Mybe static was catching the paint flecks and they were coming off. Weirdest thing I have seen.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I was thinking the same thing about the targets .Why are the pro's shooting shot up targets where you cant even see the lines on them .

This is how they make there living ,money on the line .

I had a bad call a couple years ago on the simms range there was only about 1/3 of the 14 circle left ,my arrow was close .I don't know how anyone could call it out but they did and it cost me 6 points and about 50-60 bucks and that pi$$ me off .I do this for fun not a living ,that's like taking a pay cut .

We always say if it's 99.9% out it's 100% in .


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## Dwiley (Jun 27, 2011)

I was in a great group of, open a, guys at Ft Benning. I scored every arrow, yes even my own except for one target. It was close, the other guys called it out. The reason they did was that fact close but not in. 
On the very first target one guys arrow was outside looking in but I couldn't call it out so I called it in, they all agreed and that's how we called all weekend. 
Now on the Limbsaver known distance there was a hole on first target I hit the hole, no line to call in or out but very possible coulda been a 12. Had an open b shooter very adamant that since there was no line there he couldn't call it in. Everyone else called it in like I woulda for anyone else. But since not everyone agreed it was scored a ten.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Dwiley said:


> I was in a great group of, open a, guys at Ft Benning. I scored every arrow, yes even my own except for one target. It was close, the other guys called it out. The reason they did was that fact close but not in.
> On the very first target one guys arrow was outside looking in but I couldn't call it out so I called it in, they all agreed and that's how we called all weekend.
> Now on the Limbsaver known distance there was a hole on first target I hit the hole, no line to call in or out but very possible coulda been a 12. Had an open b shooter very adamant that since there was no line there he couldn't call it in. Everyone else called it in like I woulda for anyone else. But since not everyone agreed it was scored a ten.


Well, you lost points that you should have had then. It doesn't have to be a unanimous decision.....

I'm in the same, "get these guys some new cores each day", boat as many have said previously. No matter how cut-and-dry it "should" be, scoring can get tricky on certain arrows. This is multiplied greatly when there is no line to go by.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

dw'struth said:


> Well, you lost points that you should have had then. It doesn't have to be a unanimous decision.....
> 
> I'm in the same, "get these guys some new cores each day", boat as many have said previously. No matter how cut-and-dry it "should" be, scoring can get tricky on certain arrows. This is multiplied greatly when there is no line to go by.


Yep.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

So here's a thought, why not take a fine point marker and circle the outside of the scoring ring. Use a color that's very close to the color of the target so it's not visible from distance. That gives a more definite line to call to and should make most calls easier, it won't work obviously on shot up rings but IMO those cores should be replaced if their that bad.


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## cabbage2009 (Apr 9, 2009)

///


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I have a gut feeling that the targets will be set long for the remainder of the year


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

I guess I we'll make sure I am dialed in at 53 yards


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## drockw (Sep 3, 2008)

Padgett,

I certainly follow your logic, and by no means want to get in to a great debate about this, but.... Just bc someone calls close arrows out, doesn't mean they're out to get you. I call my arrows tougher than anyone else's ill judge. 

I feel like this mentality of "if you can't call it out, it's in" is why the lower classes have so much of a larger discrepancy. You have some groups who are using the if it's close call it in thing a bit to liberally. Instead of looking at them real good, they get the ol' glance and look and then call it in... Then you get guys trying to call the like they are which turns out putting the honest people at a disadvantage!

I think we're saying the same thing here, but I'm more on the side of calling them precisely for everyone (and being more rigorous on my own arrows). If EVERYONE was more honest and called them the same way, it wouldn't hurt anyone in the long run (except for the liberal callers). 

Again, just my opinion, but I've seen soo many complacent calls that are without a doubt questionable. And this hurts the people trying to do it right more than anything. 

Obviously when the targets are shot all up, you're always gonna have the close calls and we can all agree with that.


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## Strick (Jan 1, 2004)

There is one way to solve this problem about arrow calling and influences on the call. 
1- whomever arrow is in question is to turn their back to the target as a group on a count of 3 the group decides thumbs up its in thumbs down its out. Everyone needs to look at the target and where the arrow lands nothing needs to be said except that on 3 the decision is made with the thumb. No politics no second guessing the decision is instant and the shooter whoever that may be will have a fair and instant decision and the group can move on.


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## blinginpse (Jun 21, 2011)

Guess what I keep thinkn is. Don't this make Hopkins seem a bit childish on count of him switching company's just cause he got beat?


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## bows_-_arrows (Oct 19, 2010)

So my question is why don't they just flip the target around with clear lines for the next day? Problem solved


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## skiisme753 (Jan 15, 2013)

blinginpse said:


> Guess what I keep thinkn is. Don't this make Hopkins seem a bit childish on count of him switching company's just cause he got beat?


It doesn't look good for Hopkins even though we haven't heard his side of the story. After listening to Levi explain what happened it made Jeff look really bad. Levi slipping it out there that Jeff said Eric was the worst arrow caller on the tour.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

New cores.
No matter how many it takes per target over the weekend.
Pros should not have to guess/speculate when it comes to calling arrows.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

JMJ said:


> New cores.
> No matter how many it takes per target over the weekend.
> Pros should not have to guess/speculate when it comes to calling arrows.


I don't think the pros would even want cores changed during the round. Unless you change it after every group, the game changes for the guys who shot it the last time before the change and then every group after the change.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I agree with that. New cores each day, and surely they (cores) can hold up to one round...right? I feel this would be a non-issue for the group if the line would have been visible. I could be wrong....


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

dw'struth said:


> I agree with that. New cores each day, and surely they (cores) can hold up to one round...right? I feel this would be a non-issue for the group if the line would have been visible. I could be wrong....


Yeah, that was my initial thought as well.
New cores on Sunday.
But if they needed changing more often, then change them.
It would equal out in the long run for all competitors.
Sure as heck be better than speculating on calls.

It "might" be a good idea to start out with better quality targets altogether!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

dw'struth said:


> surely they (cores) can hold up to one round...right?..


The short targets sometimes don't last a full round. One i remember specifically...they put a big sneak at like 22 yards last year on the semi pro/k50 range last year in TX. It was my 10th or 11th target....groups ahead of us warned us that they had blown through already. So somewhere short of 50 arrows.... 

Better targets....
Don't put them in our faces....

Much of the same argument I had against the "target damage" reasoning to get rid of the 14.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

They could have extra mid-sections with cores already in them laying beside the target. 1 minute fix.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

JMJ said:


> Yeah, that was my initial thought as well.
> New cores on Sunday.
> But if they needed changing more often, then change them.
> It would equal out in the long run for all competitors.
> ...


Well, it would be hard to argue with that as well. If the line is gone.....change it. 

Morelli...It is kind of crazy. Iv'e blown through (as did practically everyone else behind me) target #2 on the practice range on a Friday afternoon. Granted it was the practice range, but it was also Friday afternoon! When they make these targets do they know we will be shooting them with arrows? :tongue:


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

The new approved D-M Arrow - They are not responsible for any damage done by any other arrow of any kind.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

KG, they better improve their paint. That arrow will be pulling plugs.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Sorry - their are additional instructions I did not post that include licking the suction cup.

Paint is a whole different issue though....I love shooting the black pig with the brown aiming area


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

One other thing to consider and I know people will bad-mouth me for it, is to go with a SHAFT SIZE LIMIT. Those FAT SHAFTS really take a "plug" out of the indoor bales, let alone on the 3-D foam targets! Cram 4 XXX, or any 25-27 diameter shaft into the 12 ring or 14 ring on a 3-D target, and it is going to tear them apart quickly.
A shaft size limit of say 2315 (like the rest of the planet, for example) would do a lot to help the targets last longer! The WFA/FITA doesn't have the shaft size limit ALL because of cutting lines...a lot of it is due to the abuse of the target bosses from too large of arrow holes, too.

Just a suggestion to go to a shaft size limit; it won't happen in the USA, but still a suggestion.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

There is some merit to that, but there are a lot of people shooting smaller than 27 shafts, our entire group this past weekend was shooting 22s. Most of the Women dont shoot 27s, many of the hunter classes dont and them targets are still destroyed.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

A smaller diameter arrow will penetrate deeper into the target.


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## 3DTAZMAN (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm not even close to being a pro shooter but like shooting 3d's and winning is more fun than losing if you ask me. With money on the line I think that would make it a lot tougher calling arrows no mater who's arrow being called. I like many others have made a shot very close where the group was split calling the arrow. That's were I have stepped up and said if I would have made a better shot we would not be judging and took the lower score. So being a MAN sometimes is a hard thing when money is involved. I myself respect people (men or women)that do take the hard road.






Padgett said:


> In the last two years I have been groups where there was a guy who had a huge personality that sucked the points out of everyone in the group, I find that many times nobody is willing to stand up to them. This kind of guy usually makes a blanket statement "I refuse to give anyone anything" or "If it isn't 100 % in it is out". Usually this kind of guy in the lower classes sucks and has a chip on his shoulder, unfortunately most of the time their personalities are so big that it takes a strong group to over ride it.
> 
> This is why I loved levi morgans outlook on calling arrows where he talked about the beliefs that if you can't call it out it is in. I think more guys in the lower ranks need to hear the mentality of the semi pro and pro shooters and then at the lower ranks scoring would run much smoother.
> 
> ...


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> A smaller diameter arrow will penetrate deeper into the target.


Not completely true


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

bhtr3d said:


> Not completely true


I've pulled alot of arrows in my day, and the skinner ones are deeper and the the arrows that blow chunks out of the back of my targets on my range seem to be smaller diameter, so I don't know what you are getting at.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

The problem isnt with the light small dia arrows, its actually the heavy small arrows...most will crank up the poundage to get speed thus giving in to more kinitec energy making them penetrate even more


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Where's the Rinehart's when we need them? Sorry couldn't resist


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## Derriick (Jan 12, 2014)

IrregularPulse said:


> Being new to the sport, I'm baffled by the lack of official scoring and officiating. What other sport out there allows the competitors to police and score themselves? IMO, put a staffed judge at each target or with each group. They alone call all arrows and record scores.


I agree. Professional disc golf does the same thing. Its all about a group call and a lot of the times there are people in the group who dont wanna say anything to keep from causing hard feelings. To me it shouldnt be up to other competitors to be judging shots and watching everyones every move. That is an officials job. When im at a shoot i should only have to worry about MY performance. Gets very controversial at times.


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

*Calling*



skiisme753 said:


> It doesn't look good for Hopkins even though we haven't heard his side of the story. After listening to Levi explain what happened it made Jeff look really bad. Levi slipping it out there that Jeff said Eric was the worst arrow caller on the tour.


You will not hear Jeff say a word after something like this he is a class act very nice guy he says what he feels and that is it ...... End of story move on to the next toury just because he went to a different sight company that's his way of moving on great job Jeff .


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> Not completely true


How would you know your looking for most of your half the time just joking lol


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## NateUK (Dec 4, 2008)

shooter74 said:


> You will not hear Jeff say a word after something like this he is a class act very nice guy he says what he feels and that is it ...... End of story move on to the next toury just because he went to a different sight company that's his way of moving on great job Jeff .


Actually Jeff did speak on the topic on a recent Bow Junky podcast. They had the whole group (Hopkins, Levi, Griggs, Gomez) on at the same time.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

NateUK said:


> Actually Jeff did speak on the topic on a recent Bow Junky podcast. They had the whole group (Hopkins, Levi, Griggs, Gomez) on at the same time.


Good podcast, too! Jeff said "I was very passionate and still am on that arrow"..He went on to say "I respect everyone, and it's water under the bridge at this point, we move on"
He handled himself, as did the others, very well!
Target Quality is the issue.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

3dbowmaster said:


> Where's the Rinehart's when we need them? Sorry couldn't resist


Well, I noted that the tiny Nanos were penetrating to the off side of the target and I meant Rineharts. Yep, shot with Free stylers and them dang Nanos penetrated brand new centers.... Going out, foam blows out...


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yep, small diameter arrows are the death of a 3D target.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

IrregularPulse said:


> Being new to the sport, I'm baffled by the lack of official scoring and officiating. What other sport out there allows the competitors to police and score themselves? IMO, put a staffed judge at each target or with each group. They alone call all arrows and record scores.


How about golf?


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

drockw said:


> Padgett,
> 
> I certainly follow your logic, and by no means want to get in to a great debate about this, but.... Just bc someone calls close arrows out, doesn't mean they're out to get you. I call my arrows tougher than anyone else's ill judge.
> 
> ...


I find your use of the word "honest" in regards to the people who want to call them out when they are close, interesting. I try to give every person in my group the benefit of the doubt when scoring and yet I feel I would be considered "honest"

My take on it is this. If I have to choose between scrutinizing every close arrow and calling them out, then I have a bunch of disgruntled shooters in my group, nobody is having fun, and then huge debates arise like this! If they would have gave the arrow "the benefit of the doubt" we would not be having this long drawn-out discussion. I would much rather give them the benefit of doubt, move on and have fun. if you can see meat, then call it out, if you cannot call it out 100%, then give it to them and move on. Have fun and don't make enemies over 2 points!

I feel the good shooters will rise to the top, regardless of a few "close" ones, whether they are called in or out. I also don't think this puts the "honest people" at a disadvantage. if they are good enough, there calls should be called the same way. To call all of them "out to be fair" sounds like sour grapes to me.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, this one specific call has more to do with allegiances and biase calls more than if it was truly in or out.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There is a 20 page article on arrow calling in the general archery discussion right now and it shows the problem with arrow calling so well, many of the guys are making the argument that they realize with the rules it is a 12 but they don't like the rules on connector lines so they still call it a 10. We really do see these issues on the courses where guys don't want to follow the actual rules, they want to follow what they consider to be the correct rules in their head. Then you have the idiots who believe that they can affect the outcome of the weekend by controling the calling in the group they are in.

Off subject comments

Nothing in our society is easy anymore not even line calling, so those of us that have the right personality and the right view of reality need to just step up.


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## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

Ok I think that's apples to oranges to say the least, and probably an inappropriate post at best.

I think it's more along the lines of not knowing the rules, and probably wouldn't of believed somoeone if I hadn't seen the diagram laid out in plain english. My fault for not knowing the rules but I learned something for sure. And I've been cheating myself out of a lot of points. lol


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

It is ok for you to think it is inappropriate, not all people can deal with the reality that my wife deals with on a daily basis. Her first year as the elected prosecutor she hired a assistant prosecutor who had been a assistant in another county for 8 years, now this next part is going to suprise you.

SHE HAD TO EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT WE DON'T PROSECUTE EVERY CASE THAT COMES ACROSS OUR DESKS, this guy for 8 years prosecuted or plead out every case that had came across his desk and he looked at that approach as having a high winning percentage. She said to him we are going to reasearch and talk to everyone in the case and if a person is not guilty of a crime in our minds then we are not even going to file the stinking case. These are the simple decisions that we are trying to make when calling arrows and the simple fact is you have some people who are stupid, some are corrupt and some simply see reality differently than you.

One of my favorite things is to see the conservation man in my county pizzed off because my wife doesn't prosecute one of his tickets, you know he is god and his interpretation is final like most conservation men. She even had the top dog in our state call her and ask why she wasn't prosecuting some of the tickets given out and she said that he needs to explain to the guy that was complaining that it isn't her fault that he is stupid and it isn't her job to tell him that writing a ticket to a guy that was driving down the road and almost hit a deer with his car who slid to a stop in the ditch and the lights of his car were pointing at the deer wasn't spotlighting. This guy had his bow in the back seat and was leaving a conservation area after a evening hunt when he slid into the ditch trying to miss the deer so of course he was taken in in cuffs because he was obviously spot lighting and poaching.


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## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

I am VERY aware but don't feel that everyone should have to deal with your wife's chosen profession. Sounds like you needed to get some things off your chest which DO understand. Just felt it is more appropriate in a PM situation. :thumbs_up


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Things I need to get off my chest:

I eat to much and I am down to only a couple pairs of pants that I can wear and they only really feel good with Suspenders.

I really wish I wasn't so stinking level headed because the idiots who put their car on cruise control and then drive next to other cars in the passing lane would be so fun to mess with using the awesome road rage techniques that are out there.

I am 44 years old and I know that I am on the down slide of good young health and I only hope that I am covering everything in my life so that I don't have any regrets.

I really hope that my sense of reality has proven to make a positive difference in my short life on earth because there are a bunch of idiots out there failing.

Yeah, I have many things on my chest and I don't drive around in my truck pretending to be perfect. 

Colorado Hunter, you are wrong and you are not aware. I thought I was aware of the community that I live in but I was wrong also and it is ok for you to be wrong because I am sure you have been many times in your life. I have lived here for 44 years and the day my wife took office things changed forever, the little community you live in isn't what you think it is. Come on down sometime and I will let her take you to the subway at walmart and eat a sub and as the people walk in and out of the front doors she can tell you what is coming in and out, or even better go with us to a school open house at a elementary and let her tell you about the people walking around that she has dealt with in the system. I believe she counted 26 different people she had had in court that day the last time we went to a open house and I almost forgot about the pedofile that was checking out my 8th grade daughter who my wife hasn't had the privledge of putting away yet, he did vanish really quick after making eye contact with my wife after taking his eyes off my daughters butt.

This thread is about the ability to make decisions, there are guys who simply can't see the whole picture weather it is line calling or politics or tuning a bow or shooting a hinge or their marriage. Go figure.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

What the hell does rape have to do with calling an frigg'n arrow??? I honestly can't believe that everyone has gotten so stupid over this blown out of proportion "arrow call"! Instead of talking about the guys in the service shooting on Thursday with the Pro's in a team shoot and how awesome it was to see all of them and show them how much we appreciate what they do to allow us to do the things we get to in out daily lives...we turn the whole weekend into "one" shot arrow! And now you compare this ***** to a rape victim! For the love of God, get a life!


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Also I am not completely sure in what town your wife is a prosecutor, but here first line of business should be to prosecute you for running your mouth! Also check you out with a psychiatrist for mental stability! Your posts are ridiculous at the very best and your mental health is seriously in question for the references you have made and your rationality of life events and shooting a bow!!!


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Padgett said:


> It is ok for you to think it is inappropriate, not all people can deal with the reality that my wife deals with on a daily basis. Her first year as the elected prosecutor she hired a assistant prosecutor who had been a assistant in another county for 8 years, now this next part is going to suprise you.
> 
> SHE HAD TO EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT WE DON'T PROSECUTE EVERY CASE THAT COMES ACROSS OUR DESKS, this guy for 8 years prosecuted or plead out every case that had came across his desk and he looked at that approach as having a high winning percentage. She said to him we are going to reasearch and talk to everyone in the case and if a person is not guilty of a crime in our minds then we are not even going to file the stinking case. These are the simple decisions that we are trying to make when calling arrows and the simple fact is you have some people who are stupid, some are corrupt and some simply see reality differently than you.
> 
> One of my favorite things is to see the conservation man in my county pizzed off because my wife doesn't prosecute one of his tickets, you know he is god and his interpretation is final like most conservation men. She even had the top dog in our state call her and ask why she wasn't prosecuting some of the tickets given out and she said that he needs to explain to the guy that was complaining that it isn't her fault that he is stupid and it isn't her job to tell him that writing a ticket to a guy that was driving down the road and almost hit a deer with his car who slid to a stop in the ditch and the lights of his car were pointing at the deer wasn't spotlighting. This guy had his bow in the back seat and was leaving a conservation area after a evening hunt when he slid into the ditch trying to miss the deer so of course he was taken in in cuffs because he was obviously spot lighting and poaching.



I hope all these cases you bring up are closed or dismissed it be to bad if you were discussing confidential information on a open case sir


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Please close thread men gone wild


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## southgaboy (Jan 28, 2007)

^^^have to agree this got way off subject.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

Derriick said:


> Professional disc golf does the same thing.


oh man... 3D is now being compared to pro disc golf? i didn't know there was such a thing


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Maybe we can try and get back on the subject of the controversial arrow call, by me voicing my feelings. After listening to both of the podcast, I am still confused as the Bow Junky representative trying to explain why he refused to take a picture of the arrow. My feeling is that if photographing requires permission from ASA, and if spectators are not to follow shooters to the target, then was bowjunky at the target as a photographer or a spectator? My opinion is that a simple photo showing meat, or the arrow touching would have been a service provided to the followers of Bow Junky. Just my opinion, but I would rather see a photo of the arrow than that photo of someone drinking beer. Also if the officials of Bow Junky are permitted to the target, It is my feeling that they should be there as a photographer only. (just my .02)


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The target was shot up in that area. You would not see an arrow touch. It was a subjective call. If you can't call it out, it's in.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Dr.Dorite said:


> Maybe we can try and get back on the subject of the controversial arrow call, by me voicing my feelings. After listening to both of the podcast, I am still confused as the Bow Junky representative trying to explain why he refused to take a picture of the arrow. My feeling is that if photographing requires permission from ASA, and if spectators are not to follow shooters to the target, then was bowjunky at the target as a photographer or a spectator? My opinion is that a simple photo showing meat, or the arrow touching would have been a service provided to the followers of Bow Junky. Just my opinion, but I would rather see a photo of the arrow than that photo of someone drinking beer. Also if the officials of Bow Junky are permitted to the target, It is my feeling that they should be there as a photographer only. (just my .02)


That would be against the rules calls are to be made by the group no magnavcation , bye eyes only not the group beside them no range official ,it was done by the rules.did all party agree with the call, no I had one of mine called out on sat ,but the group on Sunday I would have got it,we are piere grouped some groups just call a little tighter than others, just like basketball some call a little tight


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## Derriick (Jan 12, 2014)

Bucks said:


> oh man... 3D is now being compared to pro disc golf? i didn't know there was such a thing


Yep. Top guys make around 50-60,000 a year.


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## BStokes (Dec 10, 2008)

ASA has addressed the issue. A proctor will be assigned to the pro ranges. Each pro will have one challenge per weekend. He or she will retain that challenge if the ruling is in the shooters favor. The proctor's ruling is final. If the shooters causes a delay a five point deduction will be assessed and will be reported to the rules committee for unsportsmanlike conduct. Also the inserts will be changed or the targets will be turned if the scoring rings are shot up.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

sagecreek said:


> If you can't call it out, it's in.


I did not see the specific arrow in question, so I have no opinion on that one. I agree with the general concept that if you cannot call it out, the shooter should get the benefit of the doubt, but isn't there a logical limit on how far this should be taken ?

For example, if the 12 is so shot out that there are no visible lines left of the 12 or the 10 ring in the 5 - 8 O'clock range, and the arrow is touching the insert canal on the bottom in line below what you can see of the 12, do you call it a 10 or 12 just because there is no line there to verify it is out, even though it is obviously at least 2" away from where either line would normally be ?

What if the lower 12 is shot up so that you cannot see the connector line between the lower 12 and the IBO center ring, and the arrow is in the top half of the IBO center ring, touching or nearly touching the top connector line ? Since you cannot see the lower connector line to verify it is not touching the lower connector, does the shooter get a 12 ?

What about the walking black bear with the 14 inside the insert - assume someone called the top 12, and again the 12 is so shot out that there is no line and a craggy hole that extends over to the 14. If an arrow is inside the circle that would be completed by the 14 line if it were there, does it get called a 12 because you cannot verify where the top of the 12 line was ?

These may sound like ridiculous examples, but some of them have actually been argued. I'd like to know what other folks think about how far the "if you can't call it out, it is in" approach should be taken.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

dgmeadows said:


> I did not see the specific arrow in question, so I have no opinion on that one. I agree with the general concept that if you cannot call it out, the shooter should get the benefit of the doubt, but isn't there a logical limit on how far this should be taken ?
> 
> For example, if the 12 is so shot out that there are no visible lines left of the 12 or the 10 ring in the 5 - 8 O'clock range, and the arrow is touching the insert canal on the bottom in line below what you can see of the 12, do you call it a 10 or 12 just because there is no line there to verify it is out, even though it is obviously at least 2" away from where either line would normally be ?
> 
> ...


Not a fan of that approach at all.....

Take the Bedded buck......I have seen that target on the simms so shot out there wasn't any lines from the bottom of the 12/10 to beyond the insert, I mean no target there at all. By the end of the weekend there was a massive hole all the way to just left of the hoof.......everyone knows that is a 5, but should it be called a 12 because there are no lines left?


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

dgmeadows said:


> I did not see the specific arrow in question, so I have no opinion on that one. I agree with the general concept that if you cannot call it out, the shooter should get the benefit of the doubt, but isn't there a logical limit on how far this should be taken ?
> 
> For example, if the 12 is so shot out that there are no visible lines left of the 12 or the 10 ring in the 5 - 8 O'clock range, and the arrow is touching the insert canal on the bottom in line below what you can see of the 12, do you call it a 10 or 12 just because there is no line there to verify it is out, even though it is obviously at least 2" away from where either line would normally be ?
> 
> ...


How do you now that if the foam was there the arrow would have remain straight ,don't punish the shooter that traveled for hundreds of miles because of bad targets


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## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

JimmyP said:


> How do you now that if the foam was there the arrow would have remain straight ,don't punish the shooter that traveled for hundreds of miles because of bad targets


Well, first of all these were local ASA rules shoot issues. Not that I think the travel distance should really matter.

Second, I don't see how the foam still being there would make any difference. In each case the point of arrow impact is well away from any realistic assumption of where the 12 line would be; for example, if hitting in the top half of the IBO ring, even the largest diameter arrow is not going to touch the lower 12 connector.

I understand you are suggesting that a hole in the target could cause the arrow to deflect in some way, but that is really only relevant for perhaps the 3rd example I gave. The other two I just described as shot out, meaning softened up and lines obliterated, but not necessarily with huge chunks missing. In many years of shooting, I can only recall a couple instances where I really thought the arrow got "bumped" out by holes in the target foam itself. 

Under this theory, if I go to a club with some sandpaper and scrub off all the lines, is the whole target now a 12 or 10 since you can't see the lines ?


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Should not be a issue any more on the pro range I just received a personal letter from asa, mike said from now on the targets will be checked during the day and turned or the core replaced to keep the lines crisp,sense the running score boards are up,little more tense when every one sees who is leading


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Shot out targets should not be a problem on the Pro ranges. Those 40 targets saw less than 160 arrows for the entire weekend. On one of the amateur ranges the targets saw almost 140 arrows on Saturday alone. Seems to me if the ams could score their arrows without having problems it makes sense that the Pros should too.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Bubba Dean said:


> Shot out targets should not be a problem on the Pro ranges. Those 40 targets saw less than 160 arrows for the entire weekend. On one of the amateur ranges the targets saw almost 140 arrows on Saturday alone. Seems to me if the ams could score their arrows without having problems it makes sense that the Pros should too.


The am.would not be so quick to let a arrow on the line be called out if it cost them a couple thousand


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## Derriick (Jan 12, 2014)

JimmyP said:


> The am.would not be so quick to let a arrow on the line be called out if it cost them a couple thousand


I was thinkin the same thing.

Side note: your last name poole?


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## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

IrregularPulse said:


> Being new to the sport, I'm baffled by the lack of official scoring and officiating. What other sport out there allows the competitors to police and score themselves? IMO, put a staffed judge at each target or with each group. They alone call all arrows and record scores.


Do you have any idea how many people that would take?


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