# Arrows for Heartbreaker-- 3d's and hunting-- what are you using?



## crowinghen (Oct 2, 2011)

I would love to hear what arrows people are using for 3d and also for hunting with their Hearbreakers!
I am shooting 46 pounds at 24.5 inch draw length. Thinking of buying arrows just for 3d- lookingto see what is working well for others - what criteria sets apart a 3d arrow form a hunting arrow--( I'm a noob)
thanks!

susie


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

Hi Susie:

Get a dozen Goldtip Ultralite 600's. 

Start at 27.5" length.
Add a 11.4 g insert, 100 grain tip, 9.3 grains of fletchings and an 8.3 grain nock. you'd have an arrow that would be the right spine and weigh 285 grains and have a 14.4 FOC! Stable!!

for hunting that combo would deliver 40 KE (Way more than enough for turkeys, pigs, Antelope and Deer)
It would fly at 251 FPS!!

If you are a hunter, I recommend this combo because if your bow/arrow are tuned correctly, all you'd need to do is unscrew the 100 grain target tip and screw in a Slick Trick 100 grain, 4 blade broadhead and they would fly exactly where the targets do 

WITHOUT CHANGING A SINGLE THING.

If the 27.5" length doesn't tune perfectly you could pull the nock, shave off the veins, cut the arrow down 1/2" and try again. They'd be a bit stiffer then.
Start with one arrow at a time and find that sweet spot. They make the rest to those specs.
Did that make sense?


My .02

Bill


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## mtnmutt (Apr 4, 2010)

Elk would need at least 45-50 KE. If you don't hunt larger game, use Bill's guidelines.

KE = ((grains) X (fps x fps)) / 450,240
grains = total arrow weight 
fps = fps of your bow setup with that arrow

I prefer to use the same for both target and elk bowhunting because I only do target to get better for hunting.


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## bonecollector66 (Mar 2, 2011)

for 3d i shoot victory hvs 400 spine (prob to stiff for your set up so look at the 500s),
with blazer vanes and 85 gr fp cut to 24 inchs.
my hunting set is the beman ics camo hunters (400s) cut to 24 and 3/4 inchs with a 
100 gr slick trick. also blazers .
those are my set up you will have to modify it for yours but this will get you in the ballpark.


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## crowinghen (Oct 2, 2011)

threetoe said:


> Hi Susie:
> 
> Get a dozen Goldtip Ultralite 600's.
> 
> ...


Are the Ultralites and the Entrada's the same thing?
thanks1


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## crowinghen (Oct 2, 2011)

Bill-
When i plug those into the goldtip calculator I get an FOC of 15.82- where am I going wrong?
thanks!


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## bow up (Sep 2, 2010)

Hi,
I hunt only , want to start the 3d but haven't yet.
Right now I use Victory VForce V1 500's. I have a 25 dl and 52 dw.
My arrows are cut at 26 1/2 in with a 100 grain razor trick.
I've been thinking about changing though . . .


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

"Are the Ultralites and the Entrada's the same thing?
thanks1 "

Answer = Yes.

15.8 ? well..that's even better!

For 3-D she could get more speed by replacing the 100 grain tip with a 70 but the change from 3-D to hunting would be more difficult. She'd have to re sight in her pins

At 46 pounds and 24.5 " she'll never see 45 to 50KE.
She'd need to up her poundage.

Personally I believe 40 KE is MORE then enough to take an Elk if the shot is placed well and the range is close. SEVERAL Elk guides have told me that. I'm not dreaming here.

Bill


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## Meister (Sep 19, 2005)

My girlfriend is shooting Epic 600's out of her Heartbreaker with 85 grain thunderheads. Shes shooting 44lbs at 25". We tried 500's and couldnt get a tune for nothin. We tried slick tricks, but amazingly enough, the thunderheads worked better for her. Shot some 600's and she started out shooting me all the way out to 35-40 yards! (probably not saying much, but it was impressive.)


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

bow up said:


> Hi,
> I hunt only , want to start the 3d but haven't yet.
> Right now I use Victory VForce V1 500's. I have a 25 dl and 52 dw.
> My arrows are cut at 26 1/2 in with a 100 grain razor trick.
> I've been thinking about changing though . . .


That combo is a bit stiff in spine but I ask.... If it ain't broke, why fix it? 

Screw on a target tip and go at it! see where the target tips hit. I bet it's WAY different from the broadheads.

The verse from Proverbs you list describes my Ex wife. I pray for her. I love her. She hates me. I honestly don't know why. Was it because I got VERY angry when I found out?


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## mtnmutt (Apr 4, 2010)

Bill, you and the elk guides are absolutely correct.

40KE can successfully and ethically kill an elk. I know a youngster did so with about 35KE. I don't recall the distance. 

Shot Placement is #1, along with sharp broadheads. KE would be 3rd in importance.

My effective hunting range is only 25 yards right now, but I practice the longer distances. Most elk are taken at <25 yards hunting in thick forest. Elk standing in open meadows is rare where I hunt.

Know your ethical hunting distance before you go hunting, but practice at the longer distances.

If I was more into 3D, I would not use Easton FMJ (heavy arrow). I am too lazy to resight between different arrow weights. I also choose a broadhead that does not require resighting when switching from target tips. Again, I am lazy. I like K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid).


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## bobstar (May 6, 2008)

fat shafts to cut lines on 3d targets easton fatboys 500 
or thin shafts to shoot better thru wind victory vap 500s


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## crowinghen (Oct 2, 2011)

I've got some of those Ultralight 600's coming... now how do I choose a vane to fletch them with?

thanks!

Susie


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

AAE Max Hunters with 3 degree helical.
You'll have a tack driver


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

First......

Start with one arrow, leave the others for now.
Leave the arrow long, maybe 28".
Put a 100 grain tip and an Accu-Lite nock on it. Don't put veins on yet! Bare shaft.

Start at 6 feet and make a perfect release into paper. Look at the hole.

Tune the bow to the arrow. Rest, Nock point, poundage up or down.
Eastons 2nd edition tuning manual will help you there.

You might want to shorten the arrow by 1/2" increments to get a perfect hole.

When you get a bullet hole at 6 feet, move back to 15 feet and try again.

MAKE SURE YOUR RELEASE IS PERFECT AND YOU DON'T TORQUE THE BOW.

When you are getting perfect holes at 15, move to 30 feet.

When you get there you can build a few arrows to the length you have. put on the veins.

``````````````````````````````````````
Now to fine tune it.

Walk Back tune. (French tune?)

Set up a target and using a string put a weight on it and dangle it up against the target so the string stays perfectly vertical. You could use tape if you wish but just make sure it's perfectly vertical.

French - Step back to 9 feet and shoot at the line. Make perfect shots. See where they shoot.
Move the rest EVER SO slightly to where you are hitting on the line.

Move back to ten yards and try it again. Move the sight to get hits on the line.
You should be close now.

Or

Walk Back

Again with the weighted string on the block go to ten yards and shoot at the line. Shoot three and note where you are hitting.
walk back to 20 and do it again.
Then thirty and fourty.

If you see that they start left at 10 then move right at 20, more right at 30 and more at 40, move your rest until all shots from 10-40 hit on the same side and are vertical.
Then move your sight.

You'll be dang close.

I hope that made sense.

Bill


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## crowinghen (Oct 2, 2011)

yes that did make sense- 
Bill, why do you think I need a 100 graintip- wouldn't an 85 grain tip be better for my lighter arrows?
not meaning to offend, just wondering if i could go with say a 26 or 26.5 inch arrow if the tip is lighter-- my draw length is 24.5.
thanks, I appreciate the help!

Susie


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## TN- archerychic (Jun 4, 2007)

I have a 24.5 inch draw and always go with a 85 grain tip and the shorter length as do several other ladies I know.


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## kwood (Oct 4, 2011)

So with the grain and short draw, relatively low poundage, light arrows here is the deal:
Going with a lighter grain (85) tip effectively stiffens the arrow. This is already a problem for us short draw/low poundage'rs but that is not to say it's a bad idea. (I am actually thinking about going that route myself)

Think of the arrow like a diving board. When no one is on it, it looks perfectly stiff. 
Now think of the diving board with a little kid on it. No matter how hard he jumps, the board gives, only a little when he runs and jumps off the end. 
Now think of how the diving board looks when a 250# man goes on the end of it and jumps off and does a cannonball! The divingboard almost touches the water surface as he loads up to jump. 
Imagine also what the diving board would behave like if the same forces were applied to it if it was 1/2 its normal length, or twice its normal length (same exact board) -- which is kind of like hwat happens when you have a longer or shorter arrow. 

This is not a perfect analogy, but if you look at the universal arrow spine chart like the one on huntersfriend.com, you tend to go to a more flexible arrow (less spine resistance; (e.g., .600 instead of .500) when you go down in mass. 
At low draw weight/length (especially) we need an arrow with less spine (more flexible) for it to fly correctly. 

I think that the spine equation is part of the reason too, why some are recommending you start with a much longer arrow than a longer draw/heavier weight shooter might. 

Here's my setup. It is nothing fancy. 

AssassinSD(Heartbreaker)
DW = 52#
DL = 24.5"
Just got new arrows (Hunting)
Easton Hunter .500 (7.3 gpi) - 24 Inches!!! :mg:
Blazer vanes
-Archery proshop guy recommended 24". 
I JUST got them (they are being made) thought that was a little aggressive. I will paper tune and see how it goes. 

I AM a little concerned I will be overspined/lose stability bc the arrows are so short :mg:
I AM new to this. What I can say is that even if the setup is not PERFECT, it will be MUCH better than what I got from Cabela's last fall when I had just started (Beman Bowhunter .400's = WAYYY OVERSPINED) 
I asked for help in the arrows section and got not too much luck. Hope your setup ends up better!

Also, for 3D (which I am not yet into) - Easton/Beman makes a set of "Speed" arrows that is fairly inexpensive ($50/6) and impressively light for the price. I'd imagine the weight tolerance etc. isn't quite as precise as the spendy ones, but hey it would be a place to start!


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I use 100 grain fp. With trophy ridge hellfires 550s. They come with either 3-D inserts or hunting inserts. I've got to test a lot of arrows and those are the ones I like the best.


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## bobstar (May 6, 2008)

my wife shoot a victory v force v6 500 with 90 grain tip 3 blazer vanes total weight of 308 shes shooting 42 lbs and bullets so far she got her razberry heartbreaker and it has improved her shooting the first night the arrow is a good all purpose arrow is strong, durable and accurate.... and 3.99 a piece


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## kwood (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh Also one more thing about tip weight -- 
From a hunting standpoint the weight of the arrow overall is an important determinant of how much Kinetic Energy (KE) your shot generates (KE is an important metric in determining how much "kill power" so to speak, your arrow has). Often you will see big game hunters using larger grain (heavier) tips. 

I think an important reason to go with a lighter (85 gr) vs a 100 gr arrow has a lot to do with the arrow's FOC (front of center) balance 
--(esp if you shoot a shorter (because ur short) and hence lighter, arrow) 

Basically, if your FOC balance is too high (TIP HEAVY -- like a short, light grain arrow with a BIG 150 gr broadhead) your arrow will fly very stable and hold its line, but tend to "nosedive" or drop off more sharply with smaller increases in distance.
(A problem if you're shooting 3D/outdoor, or trying to take game at longer distances)
If your FOC is low/close to 0% (arrow balances equally in the middle) -- your arrow will hold its trajectory longer, but unfortunately flies slightly more erratically, posing a problem for accuracy. 

Shooting 85gr solves the FOC problem for most of us short-draw people with short arrows. The KE debate is not relevant when you're killing paper in 3D or outdoors archery, whereas Speed is important for being able to maintain trajectory on targets far away.
Shooting a 100gr arrow, even if your FOC is on the high side (closer to 15%) might make sense if you deer hunt in a heavily wooded stand where your shots are all fairly short. 

Huntersfriend.com has a cool calculator thing that you can calculate your FOC and how changing your shaft size, arrow length, tip grains, or even vane type affect your FOC. Closer to 7% you have a flatter trajectory at longer distances, but closer to 15% you have a more stable arrow flight that might fall off a bit more at longer distances. 

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_4.htm


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## rae.sams (Feb 2, 2012)

I shoot strictly 3D and just switched my ultralite 600's for Xcutters! I love about 6 fps but getting more 12's will be worth it! I hope you find something to fit you! There are a lot of different options out there!


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## kwood (Oct 4, 2011)

Rae.sams -- what is your DL"/AL"/DW#/tip(gr)??!! 
Horses&Hunting -- what is your DL"/AL"/DW#/tip(gr)??!!

I have never shot the trophy ridge hellfires --I like the idea of a 550 spine arrow. I feel like 600 sounds softish for my setup but 500 is too stiff. 
My setup: 24.5"DL(maybe going back to 24"/24"AW,100gr tip, 24"/.500 Beman ICS Hunter.

Also: looking to get into 3D. Visited a 3D range for the first time ever..... 
Now I'm thinking I might want a lighter arrow like the Easton ION (sigh).


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## rae.sams (Feb 2, 2012)

23.5 DL
53 DW
24 AL
Xcutter 50 grain nibs (total weight 262)
Ultralites 75 grain nibs (total weight 244)


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm shooting a 26 in draw. Almost 55 lbs. I took my first deer with them. They fly awesome. Had a complete pass through, was using a rage broad head on it. When I ordered mine they came with two types of inserts. One for 3D and one for hunting. Which is cool, use half for hunting and half for 3D.


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