# help with slopes



## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

Hi,
I am an experienced target archer but have never shot or even attended a field shoot before. I am shooting my first FITA Field round this weekend. can you guys give me some idea of how much I need to adjust my sights and in what direction for uphill/downhill shots. I know all my flat yardages and I understand that "everybody's different" with regard to degree of adjustment but I'm looking for how much do you adjust and in what direction.

Also, any links to videos showing tips for uphill/downhill shots would be appreciated. I've only been able to find the one with Dave Cousins and Allister Whittingham but it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Thanks,
J


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

There is a mathematical calculation to determining the "cut" percentage that you make on a target. If you have an iPhone you can download Theodolite and it has a clinometer in it(whether they will let you use it on course, you will have to check) and then you can shoot the angle, do the math on your "cut" and there you go. ArchersMark, an app for the iPhone can also do this for you, again you would have to check legality. And an article by one of the very best.... http://www.ddbowhunting.com/pdf/BA_0709xtreme.pdf


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

FITA doesn't allow electronics on the course...no range finders, inclinometers. Not even supposed to use written cut charts. Used to be you could carry the rules with you but that is also is prohibited. So shoot the known distance then adjust. On unknown distances make your best guestimation and adjust from there.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

When shooting up and downhill if you need to adjust for angle you ALWAYS take yardage off. NEVER add yardage.....

electronics are not allowed for FITA. But I am not sure about inclinometers and cut charts. 

Figuring out which targets need to be cut is pretty simple actually. Anything that looks fairly steep is probably going to have a cut of a yard or two. Look at the target with your binos prior to shooting your 1st arrow...if there are good number of holes in the talk side of the face you can bet there is a cut. 

Go on YouTube and watch the Euro Pro Series videos....plenty of stuff to see there some of the older videos Dave Cousins talks about shooting up and downhill. If you go on their website you can watch entire events. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

Brown Hornet said:


> When shooting up and downhill if you need to adjust for angle you ALWAYS take yardage off. NEVER add yardage.....
> 
> electronics are not allowed for FITA. But I am not sure about inclinometers and cut charts.
> 
> ...


What Hornet said!! I still find myself forgetting to look at the target before shooting it and drop points because of it


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The "Cut" isn't a fool proof way of hitting the middle! Sorry, but even if you "know" exactly what to cut, it won't guarantee you a high score! IF you can't hold in the middle and make a good shot, then your "4" is the same as everyone else's, or maybe even worse; even if you supposedly have the mathematical answer!

If you haven't practiced with toes up or toes down, or practiced with front foot high or front foot low, or a combination of that footing position, you are in for a long day.

You need to know how YOU handle those poor footing situations. You don't have to have a hilly course in order to practice on those situations. You can make a slant board.
In addition, you have to know YOUR equipment, too. An easy way to learn how to adjust for a given impact point high or low is to intentionally mis-set your sight by 1/2, 3/4, 1 full yard etc and shoot until you know your impact points from "off yardages."

When it comes to the unmarked portion of the FITA field rounds, you had better KNOW how your bow shoots and where to aim based upon your assessment of the "yardage" based upon the holes in the target...and...where your first shot goes. If you know that your bow shoots 2" high when the yardage is "off" by 1 yard at 40 yards, you are way better off than Guessing...you need to know this information, cut chart or no cut chart.

Too many people spend all their time with sites set dead on, wanting the super scores, and when it comes to yardages being off a tad, a target anomaly, angles, poor footing, etc, they are unpracticed, inexperienced, and end up shooting crappy due to the lack of being "ProActive".
Just because joe cuts a full yard on a target doesn't mean YOU will cut that much, or maybe you will cut a bit more? You don't know how well joe is holding; you don't know if joe made a good shot or a poor shot, you don't know how well he handles these situations, etc.

Then comes the "bubbling" aspect of this too for those sidehill situations or target anomalies. Gotta learn how to "read" a target, and then, knowing how YOU handle a situation and how you need to compensate for your tendencies and how YOUR bow shoots, you can better assess the situation.
Just cuz you have the "math" done, doesn't really mean squat if you can't handle the "rest of the story."

I strongly feel that today's shooters place way too much emphasis on their computers and electronics and way to little emphasis on being ProActive and learning their own quirks and how they and their bows "shoot" under less than desirable circumstances.

"ProActive Archery", Sections 4, 5, & 6. Maybe not all the answers, but certainly worth looking at. Google "ProActive Archery"; you'll find it.


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## jwrigley (Nov 8, 2012)

From the FITA rulebook:

9.3.11 For athletes of all divisions none of the following equipment is permitted: 
9.3.11.1 Any electronic communication device, or headsets in front of the waiting line on 
the practice field, and at any time on the field course. 
9.3.11.2 On unmarked Field, Forest and 3D courses any type of range finders or any other 
means of estimating distances or angles not covered by the current rules regarding 
athletes' equipment. 
9.3.11.3 Any part of an athlete’s equipment that has been added or modified to serve the 
purpose of estimating distances or angles, nor may any regular piece of equipment 
be used explicitly for that purpose. 
9.3.11.4 Any written memoranda or electronic storage device that may be used for calculating angles, and distances apart from notes of the athlete’s normal sight marks, the 
recording of the present personal scores or any part of the FITA Rules. 


My reading of this rule is that a chart with your sight marks for a given distance and slope is allowed. So you could say for example that if my sight mark for a 50m target at a 20degree slope is my 47m yardage it would be ok to carry a written chart with that on it. Am I correct in this interpretation?

Thanks for your help. If you'll pardon the pun - I'm on a steep learning curve.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

jwrigley said:


> From the FITA rulebook:
> 
> 9.3.11 For athletes of all divisions *none of the following equipment is permitted:*
> 9.3.11.1 Any electronic communication device, or headsets in front of the waiting line on
> ...


The key here is NORMAL site marks...therefore, I would figure that the rules do NOT allow for you to use a "cut chart" with angles and cuts noted thereupon. NORMAL means your "dead level" site marks you would NORMALLY use...not "corrections" due to angles. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

I believe you are correct Tom. I don't recall "cut" charts being allowed at any of the FITA field events I've attended in the past. Just your actual sight marks, a conversion chart for meters to yards, and the chart in the FITA rules showing the distances by division, target face sizes and number of targets shot at each of the distances. No other written memoranda.

Hornet, you need to get out and shoot a "good" FITA field where if it looks "fairly" steep you're going to be needing to cut a bit more than 1-2 yds 

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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I won't be shooting any FITA field like that anytime soon buddy....there are no courses like that around me. Just some field ranges with medium cuts :wink: 

Actually I can only think of ONE FITA field shoot around these parts every year...and that area is not hilly at all. It's just not popular around here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I have attended 5 Fita Fields in the last 15 months. Not even a phone is allowed. My first Fita Field I was in, a lady had her leg cut real bad a long way from the club house. Someone had to run all the way to get help because no phones were allowed. Second Fita Field, another person fainted and I had to run all the way to get help. It seems that people need help as far from the club house as possible.

Now I carry my phone. I tell everyone in my group that I have my phone and that I will not take it out of my pocket unless there is an emergency. I also tell them that if they want to have me disqualified then do it because I will not let someone die. Some rules go too far. Several years ago, an archer used a phone to text distances to another archer. Now no phones or electronic devices are allowed. They should have punished the archers caught cheating instead of making a rule against phones. How about no electronis used other than a phone that can only be used for an emergency.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

huteson2us2 said:


> I have attended 5 Fita Fields in the last 15 months. Not even a phone is allowed. My first Fita Field I was in, a lady had her leg cut real bad a long way from the club house. Someone had to run all the way to get help because no phones were allowed. Second Fita Field, another person fainted and I had to run all the way to get help. It seems that people need help as far from the club house as possible.
> 
> Now I carry my phone. I tell everyone in my group that I have my phone and that I will not take it out of my pocket unless there is an emergency. I also tell them that if they want to have me disqualified then do it because I will not let someone die. Some rules go too far. Several years ago, an archer used a phone to text distances to another archer. Now no phones or electronic devices are allowed. They should have punished the archers caught cheating instead of making a rule against phones. How about no electronis used other than a phone that can only be used for an emergency.


First of all, this may sound "crass" and I also agree that times have changed...but...How did we get by years ago when cell phones weren't available? You got it...we ran to the clubhouse or whatever, to get help. How did the parents get in touch with their kids at school? You got it, they called the OFFICE, since the office knew where said kid(s) were in the school! 
We have become so dependent upon technology that we've lost the ability to think for ourselves or to be out by ourselves without somebody knowing if we are taking a dump, passing gas, or "I'm on target 16 and should be home in two hours or so."

NOW...on the other hand, I do feel that the phones could be taken on the range...TURNED OFF COMPLETELY and the ONLY time those would come out is in the event of a REAL emergency. None of this "on vibrate" situation...and none of this "checking the phone" every few minutes to see if mommy or wifey wants to know if you're burping or not.

It always seems to be the case that the majority are punished for the violations of the few...and that the orgs don't have the cajunas to discipline sternly those that violate the rules as in DQ'ing and removing them from the range. Look at the mess with gun control for example..>ALL of us are going to pay the price because of the actions of the few, and ALL of us will end up eventually defenseless against those that are going to have the weapons; legal or otherwise.

Now back to reality. Again, I see nothing wrong with having the cell phone with you..as long as it is completely turned off, and there is NO USE OF IT WHATSOEVER on the range...unless a REAL emergency arises and it is needed for that. 
As far as the other "electronics" on a FITA field round? Nope. It is in the rules to not have them at all, so that remains. Most of that is due to the unmarked yardage portion of the FITA Field, and the fact that in the past, shooters on the line were using earpieces and "technology" to get coached while shooting...either from playing coaching materials, or direct communications with a coach. In addition having those earpieces and listening to music or whatever...is a SAFETY HAZARD, since the person isn't really paying attention and may well not hear the whistles to stop shooting or other instructions given on the line.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Can I carry my stool and umbrella on a FITA field range? I couldn't get along without them, especially if the wind is blowing or the sun is glaring in my sights. BH - I find that for slight uphill slopes, ie 2-3 degrees on longer targets, shoot better when I ADD just a 1/4 yard or so rather than cut or shoot dead on.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Why yes, rsw, you can bring your umbrella and stool on a FITA field range. Just can't have anyone hold that umbrella up to aid in blocking sun, rain or wind (only allowed to shade with something roughly the size of an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper) . A stool and umbrella is "lightly" packing compared to what I've seen the Euro's frequently toting around a course at times.

fyi, found the same thing as yourself for very mild uphill slopes on longer targets - needing to add a few clicks to the sight setting rather than deduct. I believe the Archer's Advantage cut charts shows the same thing.

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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

jwrigley said:


> Hi,
> . . . can you guys give me some idea of how much I need to adjust my sights and in what direction for uphill/downhill shots . . . . I'm looking for how much do you adjust and in what direction.
> 
> Also, any links to videos showing tips for uphill/downhill shots would be appreciated. I've only been able to find the one with Dave Cousins and Allister Whittingham but it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
> ...


As mentioned in previous responses, you always subtract yardage when shooting up or downhill. Hence, the cut. The amount to subtract depends on the distance to the target and the degree of deviation from level. This is empirical, and is the same for everyone. I've included a link with a very thorough explanation. 

However, knowing the math/physics behind the adjustment is only part of the challenge. Shooting in off neutral positions where feet are slanted up or down, and the lead leg is lower/higher than your trailing leg affects your shooting form, and this will introduce certain biases into your shot. Now in this respect, it is different for each archer and knowing how you respond to these situations will allow you to compensate correctly. It really is a matter of practicing in that environment and tracking how your shot responds.

As to the video with Dave Cousins and Allister Whittingham, Cousins is describing his shot routine for compensating for the cut of a shot. He makes two shots in the first video, one without compensating for the angle, and one with an adjustment. His shot without the adjustment lands high, with the cut is a 5. The device he uses in a clinometer. It is essentially a level, but provides the angle from level. It seems counter-intuitive, but gravity only effects an arrow relative to it's horizontal travel. 

Here are two examples:
Uphill shot








Downhill shot








In the uphill shot, the arrows actual flight distance is 20 yards. It's horizontal component of it's flight is only 10 yards. In the downhill shot, the actual flight distance is 21 feet. It's horizontal component is only 7 feet.

You will find using archery software produced cut-sheets, where the downhill shots do not subtract quite as much as the uphill shots. That is due to the parallax effect of the sight above the arrow's arc, not gravity "helping" an arrow shot downhill.

Here is a very thorough explanation of the math involved in solving for steep angle shots. It is a posted by King’s Mountain Archers, Woodside, CA.
http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/tips/angle-shots.html


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