# Criteria for intermediate, advanced, elite?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There are no hard and fast numbers, but the idea of using JOAD/AA pins is not a bad one if someone wished to use numbers.

We throw around the terms beginner, intermediate, advanded and elite all the time. One person's elite is the next person's advanced, and so on. I'll use myself as an example. Some of my harshest critics in 2004 were eager to point out I was not an "elite" archer despite making the Olympic team. I didn't argue with them. I'm not sure I considered myself one either. But there were plenty who would have put me in the "elite" category, and some still do. Just depends on perspective I guess. To me, my 320 average for the 2004 season and through the 2004 Oly. trials was hardly "elite." It was simply good enough that year for the Olympic and USAT squad, and a 4th place NRS finish by year's end. Internationally, I was ranked 40th in the world, finished tied for 28th in Turkey and 41st in Athens. Is that elite? I dunno. Guess it depends on who you ask. 

By comparison, my average was even higher for the 2012 Oly. trials, but instead of finishing 3rd, I finished 11th. Does that move me from "elite" to "advanced" even though my scores were higher? I dunno. I guess the lesson there is that "elite" can be a moving target.

Intermediate describes the vast majority of our archers. Time will take some of those into the "advanced" column, whether their scores improve or not.

Lots of ways to measure this.

I personally would say the first three achievement pins for JOAD/AA are "beginner" then next three, intermediate, yellow to silver Olympian are "advanced" and the gold Olympian is "elite." But that's just me.

John


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

John, you will always be an elite archer. Every Olympian is. No question about it.


But i second your post.


Chris


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

I would have to agree with john. Perspective is everything. I would say it is wise to never consider yourself elite, because that means you think you have nothing left to learn. There is always room for improvement.


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## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

Elite means you KNOW that
there is still something left to learn. ...........


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

Yes, John is truly an elitist.:wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

target1 said:


> Yes, John is truly an elitist.:wink:


LOL. Of the highest order... 

It's about time you realized that.  ha, ha.

I sure felt "elite" pounding out that 490-something with my barebow rig this past weekend. :sad:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

BTW, I know some very advanced archers who still call themselves "intermediate" only because they look at their scores. But if you needed someone to set up a bow or build a string or set of arrows, they would excel. There is more to being a great archer than great scores. I know some archers who can shoot great scores and don't even know how to tie on a nock set or fletch their own arrows.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine: "elite athlete" = An athlete with potential for competing in the Olympics or as a professional athlete

Dictionary of Sport and Exercise Science and Medicine by Churchill Livingstone: "elite athlete" = 
world-class performer in any physical sport.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

Thank you all for the replies.

John, definitely you are an "elite" archer!

I guess at the club where I shoot, "101" class is for green, purple, grey pins (JOAD / AAP), "201" is for white, black, blue, red pins, and "301" is for yellow and the Olympian pins. 
So that would be like beginner, intermediate, and advanced.

Thank you.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lksseven said:


> McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine: "elite athlete" = An athlete with potential for competing in the Olympics or as a professional athlete
> 
> Dictionary of Sport and Exercise Science and Medicine by Churchill Livingstone: "elite athlete" =
> world-class performer in any physical sport.


I would say John fit both of those definitions exactly. 

Chris


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

For me an archer that is consistently placing in top 5 in European/World tourneys would be considered elite. I place the Olympic arena higher than Euro/World tourney arena, just making it into that Olympic arena is an epic achievement, USA being so big it is likely harder to make it to Olympics just from the number of Archers fighting for a place.

Reena Parnat made it to London Olympics, the first to ever represent Estonia, she didn't get get past qualifications but it was an obvious confidence boost as she seems to be improving her world ranking every year. Estonians in the past have shot in the Olympics but when it happened it was part of the Russian team. Sport here is well respected and even minority sports get recognition and financial support. We even get funding for WA3D events which is good, it cost 150.000 Euros to run European WA3D event in Tallinn last Summer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

As someone who has now coached quite a few JOAD and AA Olympians, in my mind, the Bronze level is still "advanced." One could argue Silver is elite, but I hold that standard to Gold Olympian. If someone achieves their Gold Olympian status, then they are an elite archery in my opinion, as not many will ever accomplish this.

Elite changes too, depending on geography. An elite archer in the US is not necessarily elite internationally. Peer groups change and definitions change to meet them.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> As someone who has now coached quite a few JOAD and AA Olympians, in my mind, the Bronze level is still "advanced." One could argue Silver is elite, but I hold that standard to Gold Olympian. If someone achieves their Gold Olympian status, then they are an elite archery in my opinion, as not many will ever accomplish this.
> 
> Elite changes too, depending on geography. An elite archer in the US is not necessarily elite internationally. Peer groups change and definitions change to meet them.


Agree that context is a factor (state vs national vs international). 

But, in my book, any football player on an NFL team is an elite football player (there are only 1500 of them, compared to the hundreds of thousands or more football players in the USA). So, for me, any archer ranked in the top couple of hundred _'in the world'_ is an elite archer.

To put a finer gradient on it, maybe 'among the Best' would be the designation I would use for the top handful of archers. And how many that 'among the Best' is (the 'lead pack' so to speak) depends on the gaps between packs within those ranks, too.

Actually, it should be quite easy for USA Archery to release statistics on how many Bronze, Silver, and Gold Achievement Pins have been earned. That would be worth knowing, for context.


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## MIshooter (Sep 19, 2014)

another thing to consider when distinguishing between which "group" an archer belongs in is how much effort and time they put into archery. If a kid show up and shoot silver but a different kid who practices multiple times a week but can only shoot bronze is the silver really more advanced or elite than the bronze shooter? I think it only really applies to a relatively small gap but effort should defiantly be taken into account.


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## thiessen3.14 (Sep 11, 2006)

MIshooter said:


> is the silver really more advanced or elite than the bronze shooter?


Yes. Scores are what differentiate archers of a given class. Why do we practice if not to shoot higher scores? 

Most pro athletes have to work way harder than Bo Jackson did to be a pro athlete. And Bo is possibly the elitist evah.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

thiessen3.14 said:


> Yes. Scores are what differentiate archers of a given class. Why do we practice if not to shoot higher scores?
> 
> Most pro athletes have to work way harder than Bo Jackson did to be a pro athlete. And Bo is possibly the elitist evah.


Agree - one might admire more the hard worker for his effort and diligence. But the proof's in the pudding.

Speaking of Bo Jackson and performance, a story that always makes me smile ... A reporter was doing research for an article on baseball, and in the process he was interviewing Bo Jackson. He asked him what was the hardest ball he ever hit. He said "In Kansas City, third inning, Nolan Ryan threw me a 2-1 fastball that I nuked - it almost hit him in the head and was still going up as it cleared the centerfield wall, before I was halfway to first base." A few days later, the reporter caught up with Nolan Ryan and asked him who, in Ryan's career, had hit one of his pitches the hardest. With zero hesitation, Ryan replied "Bo Jackson, Kansas City, third inning, 2-1 fastball that sounded like it missed my head by an inch - I didn't see it - and before I could turn my head around it was out of the park." 

That was a titanic clash between an unparalleled body of work and an unparalleled body.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bo Jackson was not elite. 

They haven't created the category for him yet, but if they do, he will be the only one in it. 

And the cool thing is that he's a bowhunter, and has an archery workshop in his basement. He says one of the most relaxing things to him is just making arrows. Gotta love that guy.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> As someone who has now coached quite a few JOAD and AA Olympians, in my mind, the Bronze level is still "advanced." One could argue Silver is elite, but I hold that standard to Gold Olympian. If someone achieves their Gold Olympian status, then they are an elite archery in my opinion, as not many will ever accomplish this.
> 
> Elite changes too, depending on geography. An elite archer in the US is not necessarily elite internationally. Peer groups change and definitions change to meet them.



For those who coaches JOAD &/ AA, are there any with Gold Olympian pins? I am curious about how long it takes to get to yellow, and then to those Olympian pins on average.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

My archers have earned about 20 Olympian pins total over the past 11 years, in compound, barebow and recurve combined. Of those, I can only think of two (maybe three) that earned their gold. One compound and two recurve. I have two right now who have their silver pins, one of whom has been working on her gold for over a year. 

I don't want to start any controversy but frankly, the compound Olympian scores are the easiest to obtain, as evidenced by the numbers of compound Olympians who earn theirs every year compared to the recurve and barebow. Barebow Olympian scores are out of line, and our barebow committee has been working to bring them in line with reality for the past few months, but it's a slow process. To earn your Gold Olympian pin in barebow indoors, all you had to do was set a new National record. LOL. I have no idea who came up with those indoor scores.

On average, if you take a 12 year old JOAD archer, I'd say it takes most about 2-3 years of steady shooting to get to their yellow pin level. (Maybe bronze). Then another year to get to the bronze, and then another year to silver. Most will never earn their gold. We see a lot of teenage archers who are stuck at bronze or silver, then get taken away from archery by college, work, girlfriends/boyfriends, etc.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I don't want to start any controversy but frankly, the compound Olympian scores are the easiest to obtain, as evidenced by the numbers of compound Olympians who earn theirs every year compared to the recurve and barebow. Barebow Olympian scores are out of line, and our barebow committee has been working to bring them in line with reality for the past few months, but it's a slow process. To earn your Gold Olympian pin in barebow indoors, all you had to do was set a new National record. LOL. I have no idea who came up with those indoor scores.


Seems like the same problem that happened several times with the outdoor BB scores in the AAP, where you had to break the STAR FITA record to earn the top three awards (and that was *before* they added the Olympian pins). It was clear that someone just used the Recurve scores and subtracted an arbitrary, fixed offset from them for BB, not bothering to actually check against scores or records shot in official tournaments - a case of BB being a total afterthought implemented by people who not only knew nothing of BB but didn't bother to do even the most cursory research. Just another reason why having a BB committee is so necessary.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Seems like the same problem that happened several times with the outdoor BB scores in the AAP, where had to break the STAR FITA record to earn the top three awards (and that was *before* they added the Olympian pins). It was clear that someone just used the Recurve scores an put a fixed offset on them for BB, not bothering to actually check against scores or records shot in official tournaments - a case of BB being a total afterthought implemented by people who not only knew nothing of BB but didn't bother to do even the most cursory research. Just another reason why having a BB committee is so necessary.


I would disagree with you, but that would make me wrong.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> My archers have earned about 20 Olympian pins total over the past 11 years, in compound, barebow and recurve combined. Of those, I can only think of two (maybe three) that earned their gold. One compound and two recurve. I have two right now who have their silver pins, one of whom has been working on her gold for over a year.
> 
> I don't want to start any controversy but frankly, the compound Olympian scores are the easiest to obtain, as evidenced by the numbers of compound Olympians who earn theirs every year compared to the recurve and barebow. Barebow Olympian scores are out of line, and our barebow committee has been working to bring them in line with reality for the past few months, but it's a slow process. To earn your Gold Olympian pin in barebow indoors, all you had to do was set a new National record. LOL. I have no idea who came up with those indoor scores.
> 
> On average, if you take a 12 year old JOAD archer, I'd say it takes most about 2-3 years of steady shooting to get to their yellow pin level. (Maybe bronze). Then another year to get to the bronze, and then another year to silver. Most will never earn their gold. We see a lot of teenage archers who are stuck at bronze or silver, then get taken away from archery by college, work, girlfriends/boyfriends, etc.


Thank you so much John! This helps set my expectation. I know of a handful bronze pin holders at the Club I go to, but no silver or gold (to my knowledge). My husband and I shoot barebow recurve, while our 11-year-old son shoots compound with sight and release. We thought we could get to yellow in a year  I didn't realize that the barebow Gold Olympian is above the National record! I think it is 280 for AAP. Right now any scores above 200 looks good to me because we just got our white pins. I also struggle more in comparison to my husband and son. It is fun though, a lot of things to learn, and a great family activity. Hope someday we'll get to yellow and then the Olympian pins.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Our recommendation to USArchery was to bring the indoor barebow scores down. They were too high. Why anyone wouldn't first check the U.S. record, or even the past few years' Indoor Nationals scores, is beyond me. It's so easy to do. So hopefully the new release (whenever that is) of the JOAD/AA achievement pin matrices will address this.

I just had one of my JOAD barebow archers earn his indoor bronze. Until someone tells me otherwise, I think he is the first JOAD archer in the US to earn both indoor and outdoor bronze pins in barebow.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

I think the first pass on the barebow matrix was just to get something up there to edit so based on others experiences it could be improved. Having it is substantially better than having nothing like we did for so many years.

John, you group has a lot of data. Serious question, how many of your Olympians have been able to repeat their performances in tournaments. Our particular club has always insisted that their olympian pins had to be earned at tournaments. Not criticizing at all. Just wondering since you actually have data on the correlation between pin shoots and tournament shooting. I just wonder how many kids over the years I may have deprived of the olympian status by not holding regular pin shoots rather than always working on training issues. I don't have the data to prove or disprove my hypothesis that it is easier to shoot the olympian scores in pin shots or practices than tournaments. Again, for anyone else (as John knows me) I am not trying to start a fight, I just would like to see the data to learn for the future.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

TomB said:


> Our particular club has always insisted that their olympian pins had to be earned at tournaments.


Our club has the same insistence. For my own personal view, I wouldn't view an Olympian pin I received as authentic if the score wasn't shot at a tournament. On a coaching level, I wouldn't want one of my archer's honesty and respect called into question if someone were to question the validity of their Olympian pin(s). being able to back the pin with an official and posted score removes that from the situation.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mulcade said:


> Our club has the same insistence. For my own personal view, I wouldn't view an Olympian pin I received as authentic if the score wasn't shot at a tournament. On a coaching level, I wouldn't want one of my archer's honesty and respect called into question if someone were to question the validity of their Olympian pin(s). being able to back the pin with an official and posted score removes that from the situation.


It certainly would be desirable to shoot it in a sanctioned tournament. But, that does also advantage JOAD shooters in areas that feature a larger number of sanctioned USAA tournaments. :dontknow:


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

again, i am not trying to start an arguement. (JimC and I had that discussion several years ago.) John's group is one of the few that have the data and might be willing and able to share it. different strokes for different folks.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

First off, what if they don't do tournaments yet/ at all? I thought JOAD/AAP was the development wing from which one branched out into the competitive world. The people who have not gotten their wings yet might still want to shoot for score and have it count. I went from lessons to tournaments and only then back into a range's scoring events but I didn't follow many people's progression.

Second, guy I saw at his JOAD was getting his pin for a tournament.

Third, if you saw his JOAD or Katy's league you'd call their unsanctioned shoots for scores a pretty good tournament. State and national champions walking around. And an Olympian silently judging you. If I go to a low key local series tournament it's EASIER. I'm not worried about being outshot by BB shooters.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm really glad that I'm not the only one who thought the BB standards for pins were rather unrealistic. Not impossible but definitely requiring world-class performance to achieve.

-Grant


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Azzurri said:


> First off, what if they don't do tournaments yet/ at all? I thought JOAD/AAP was the development wing from which one branched out into the competitive world. The people who have not gotten their wings yet might still want to shoot for score and have it count. I went from lessons to tournaments and only then back into a range's scoring events but I didn't follow many people's progression.
> 
> Second, guy I saw at his JOAD was getting his pin for a tournament.
> 
> Third, if you saw his JOAD or Katy's league you'd call their unsanctioned shoots for scores a pretty good tournament. State and national champions walking around. And an Olympian silently judging you. If I go to a low key local series tournament it's EASIER. I'm not worried about being outshot by BB shooters.


I am only talking olympian level pins for tournaments, not all pins.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, all of my Olympian archers have either earned their pins in touranments (State level or higher) or have repeated those scores in tournaments. Our most recent Silver Olympian, Jordan Jeffries, earned his with his 2nd 30 arrows at JOAD Indoor Nationals the other day, after posting a miserable first 30. Paige has had her Silver a while now, and reaffirmed it with a 287 in Vegas, nearly earning her Gold. Ryland (barebow) tends to shoot better in tournaments. 

Yes, we have had a few earn theirs in official club pin shoots, but they always go on to repeat that in tournaments. In fact, I think it takes the pressure off (many of them want those Olympian pins worse than a state championship anyway) and wearing those pins into tournaments gives them confidence.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Tom, all of my Olympian archers have either earned their pins in touranments (State level or higher) or have repeated those scores in tournaments. Our most recent Silver Olympian, Jordan Jeffries, earned his with his 2nd 30 arrows at JOAD Indoor Nationals the other day, after posting a miserable first 30. Paige has had her Silver a while now, and reaffirmed it with a 287 in Vegas, nearly earning her Gold. Ryland (barebow) tends to shoot better in tournaments.
> 
> Yes, we have had a few earn theirs in official club pin shoots, but they always go on to repeat that in tournaments. In fact, I think it takes the pressure off (many of them want those Olympian pins worse than a state championship anyway) and wearing those pins into tournaments gives them confidence.


Good. Exactly what I was hoping to hear. Taking the pressure off makes perfect sense.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I do like the idea of achieving Olympian pins in the pressure cooker, rather than the friendly confines of your home range. So if Gold Olympian equates to 'elite' shooter, as posited in another thread, should not an archer achieve it in a 'game', rather than a 'scrimmage'? The same goes for mail in tournaments. I've seen scores in mail in events that the same archer is not able to achieve on the line in a sanctioned event.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think that's between the club leader and the archer/parents. At some point, it is our job to teach archery, and the parent's job to teach life lessons/morals. It's easy to cross the line. Too easy sometimes.

I'd rather err on the side of generosity, with the idea that it may provide some measure of confidence to the archer. If they themselves insist on earning their Olympian pins in "official" competitions, then good for them, but that's their choice. I think we'd all admire them for that, but the JOAD rules say nothing about this, only that they be won in "tournament-like" conditions (official target sizes/distances, double scoring, at least 3 archers, etc.). I'm not sure it's our job as coaches to further interpret that or add more restrictions to prove a point. If the archer wants to do that (or their parents "require" their kid to do that) then that's fine. But it's not what we're asked to do as JOAD program leaders.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One thing I insist on is that they earn their pins in order. No skipping pins because they had a good day. This hit one of my archers pretty hard the other day, because in a tournament, he jumped completely over his yellow pin and shot a bronze score. He already knew the answer to the question of whether that was good for his bronze Olympian score or not. He knew he still had not shot his yellow pin score yet. 

I reassured him and said "if you can do it once, you'll do it again, so don't worry." And sure enough one week later, he earned his bronze Olympian.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> One thing I insist on is that they earn their pins in order. No skipping pins because they had a good day. ...


This is what our archery club does, too. 

We have the TAIL (Texas Archery Indoor League) tournaments that are run every month (actually every 4 weeks) where we can earn pins. Can we earn pins in other tournaments like State Indoor, Indoor Nationals? I mean the JOAD / AAP pins. How about SYWAT (I think those are NFAA)?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, SYWAT wouldn't work. Different target.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I think that's between the club leader and the archer/parents. At some point, it is our job to teach archery, and the parent's job to teach life lessons/morals. It's easy to cross the line. Too easy sometimes.
> 
> I'd rather err on the side of generosity, with the idea that it may provide some measure of confidence to the archer. If they themselves insist on earning their Olympian pins in "official" competitions, then good for them, but that's their choice. I think we'd all admire them for that, but the JOAD rules say nothing about this, only that they be won in "tournament-like" conditions (official target
> sizes/distances, double scoring, at least 3 archers, etc.). I'm not sure it's our job as coaches to further interpret that or add more restrictions to prove a point. If the archer wants to do that (or their parents "require" their kid to do that) then that's fine. But it's not what we're asked to do as JOAD program leaders.
> ...


You may be correct. But I suspect a shooter getting to that level will inherently know the difference between a tournament score and something else...... 

Demanding excellence at the upper levels of shooting, isn't that a coaches job? You don't have to be an ogre to expect excellence.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Demanding excellence at the upper levels of shooting,* isn't that a coaches job? *You don't have to be an ogre to expect excellence.


I'm not so sure it is. At some point, that becomes the archer's job... i.e. you get out of it what you put into it sort of thing...

And while some coaches may "demand" one thing or another, the only thing I demand is respect for the other archers, for oneself, and for the coaches and parents. Scores are just scores. There are much more important lessons that we can teach than how to achieve high scores.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

midwayarcherywi said:


> You may be correct. But I suspect a shooter getting to that level will inherently know the difference between a tournament score and something else......
> 
> Demanding excellence at the upper levels of shooting, isn't that a coaches job? You don't have to be an ogre to expect excellence.


Tournaments are not the exclusive domain for excellence, though.

The Stars Pin Awards and the AAP awards are not a ranking system, and for our program, being able to grant Olympian pins via our own achievement shoots with tournament like conditions makes our program more inclusive for those archers in our program who love the sport and strive for excellence, but aren't interested in competition.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well said Warbow. There are many ways to compete. Assuming all archers wish to compete in tournaments would be a mistake. There is a large % of archers who take the sport up for the personal challenges it offers them, not to compete against anyone else, or even to attend organized events. We should respect that as program leaders. 

I've had to learn this the hard way, and throttle back from my super-competitive nature (only further enhanced by working at the JDT camps with some of our most competitive young archers in the U.S.). 

Besides, if we are willing to compare an Olympian pin earned at a tournament vs. one earned at a club pin shoot, then we must first evaluate the level of difficulty for each division, to see whether they are equal challenges. I don't believe they are. We have a much higher % of compound Olympians than we do recurve, and that is much higher still than barebow. Appropriate adjustments should be made on occasion, based on statistics retained from Indoor and Outdoor Nationals events.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

To continue your thoughts on the achievement system, another club mate and I (well, mostly him) did some statistical analysis of pins, scores and shooting style. 

We found that the compound pins were the easiest go get, as well. We have a couple of dedicated barebow shooters who are really struggling to get the blue and red pins. My clubmate has sent off an email detailing his findings, and we're hopeful that USAA will at least consider the data and make a change.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

calbowdude said:


> To continue your thoughts on the achievement system, another club mate and I (well, mostly him) did some statistical analysis of pins, scores and shooting style.
> 
> We found that the compound pins were the easiest go get, as well. We have a couple of dedicated barebow shooters who are really struggling to get the blue and red pins. My clubmate has sent off an email detailing his findings, and we're hopeful that USAA will at least consider the data and make a change.


Would you care to post the data? I'm curious.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

calbowdude said:


> To continue your thoughts on the achievement system, another club mate and I (well, mostly him) did some statistical analysis of pins, scores and shooting style.
> 
> We found that the compound pins were the easiest go get, as well. We have a couple of dedicated barebow shooters who are really struggling to get the blue and red pins. My clubmate has sent off an email detailing his findings, and we're hopeful that USAA will at least consider the data and make a change.


I may have already sent them some of your findings. I thought it was very good work.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've been shooting compound for about 4 months or so and I've shot bronze Olympian many times in practice/league. I've shot competitive barebow for about 4 years and managed bronze exactly once in practice.
Not saying that my compound shooting has built on the foundation of my previous barebow experience, but it does feel like a wildly different metric.

-Grant


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I'll need to get the final data from him, but in essence, we looked at the state indoor championship scores for California, and looked at who would have gotten yellow pins, using the premise that you had earned the previous pins. We used the yellow pin as it was the highest award beneath the olympian pins, and should be a fair indicator of a person's shooting skill. I just looked at the data again, and for brevity, I looked at either saturday or sunday's scores, and divided in half, as I don't have access to the 30-arrow round scores, only the 60 arrow aggregate. For Male Senior compound and male senior recurve, the number break down as follows:

Yellow pin score for compound: 270, or 540 using my crappy methodology: 21 out of 26 compound senior male archers shot this, and 5 out of 13 collegiate compound shooters. There were a few scores in the 530's, so it is possible there were more 270 scores. 

Yellow pin score for recurve: 280, or 560: zero out of 42 senior recurve male archers shot 560. 1 out of 57 collegiate male recurve archers broke 560. A couple broke 550 for senior and collegiate, so once again it's possible there were more 280 scores.

Yellow pin score for barebow: 250, or 500: 2 out of 7 broke this, with two shooters going 483 and 492 on their best total, so maybe there were 4 that shot 250. I need to mention that the 2 archers who cleanly cleared 250 (by my criteria) were Ben Rogers and Alan Eagleton, whose names are very familiar to a number of people here....

I glanced at some of the other categories, and the percentages/ratios hold up in a clear disparity skewed toward compound. In fact, the only female barebow shooter to "get" her yellow pin was Rebecca Nelson-Harris, also probably well-known to a number of you...


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> I may have already sent them some of your findings. I thought it was very good work.


Cool, thanks! I can only take about 10% credit, as I did some of the preliminary premise work, and my clubmate did the heavy lifting analytically speaking.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Wait, so all you have to do to earn a yellow BB pin is shoot like Alan Eagleton? Seems fair :dontknow: :wink:

Working to keep the pin scores as accomplishments of relative equal ability is, IMO, a good way to advance interest in BB - and it's something that has needed outside advocacy for years. I'm glad to see others taking up this issue when in past years it got a whole lot of "meh" from many here in the forum.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Plus Ben Rogers and Rebecca, both of whom are national BB champions IIRC. So, yup, all you need to do is outshoot 3 national champs and you could earn a yellow pin haha!

I may need to redo the data make sure we did included barebow, since my personal feeling is that the respective pin levels should be equivalent in terms of dedication, training and ability. To have archers shoot for years just to get a yellow pin in recurve and BB, while compound can shoot for <1 year and already be chasing their bronze pin seems a bit skewed to me.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> In fact, the only female barebow shooter to "get" her yellow pin was Rebecca Nelson-Harris, also probably well-known to a number of you...


Yes, of course.

So, last year, one of my students shot his barebow outdoor bronze Olympian, and just recently achieved his indoor bronze Olympian. I thought it would make a nice story for USArchery, since I believe him to be the first JOAD barebow Olympian in either indoor our outdoor. I thought the story might be a good way to encourage other JOAD barebow archers.

So I sent the story up, and then checked with USArchery staff to see if in fact that was the case - that he was the first JOAD barebow Olympian. They came back with the answer "uh, no I think we've had a couple now" (not really a confident answer because I don't think they bothered to even check) and I'm like "WHAT? WHO?" 

I mean, seriously. What JOAD barebow archer is out there shooting the current bronze Olympian scores? We put three young men on the world field team in Junior barebow and one of them was the student of mine.

I asked for clarification, and never got any. It was as if they were afraid to admit that this kid was the first JOAD barebow Olympian, or to think enough of the achievement to at least do a story on the one who was. As you can tell, I'm still not satisfied with their non-answer.

Anyway, yea, the barebow scores need to come down a bit on the indoor side for the adults. However, on the outdoor side, they actually need to go up a little. Those were the recommendations we sent in to the head shed. We'll see if they are implemented when the new matrices that we've been promised, come out.

John


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

What are the scores required to earn each respective Barebow pin? Or where can I find the information?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> So I sent the story up, and then checked with USArchery staff to see if in fact that was the case - that he was the first JOAD barebow Olympian. They came back with the answer "uh, no I think we've had a couple now" (not really a confident answer because I don't think they bothered to even check) and I'm like "WHAT? WHO?


Wow :mg:

How can they not know? All the Olympian pins have to go through USAA. Surely, at a minimum, there is a list with the name, date and score of each Olympian pin winner?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, well. 

I think it was a case of the "wrong person" asking. LOL.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

hammer08 said:


> What are the scores required to earn each respective Barebow pin? Or where can I find the information?


For JOAD: http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...-Archery-Development/JOAD-Achievement-Program

For Adults: http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Archers/Adult-Archery-Program


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Awesome, thank you. 

The indoor scores seem a touch high for barebow. Not much though.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, they are high. When you have to set a new US record to get the gold pin, that's too high.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

True, but I don't think they should be lowered all that much.

Just my thoughts: I like where the yellow patch is. 250 or 500 is attainable by most shooters with dedication. I think the bronze should be 260 or 520, that's a really good score. 270 or 540 would be good for the silver, that's a really great score which would be competitive most anywhere. And 275 or 550 is close to where the gold should be. That's an incredible achievement that will only be accomplished with a lot of hard work and dedication.

I'd like to get outside and see where I stand on the outdoor pins now.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

hammer08 said:


> True, but I don't think they should be lowered all that much.
> 
> Just my thoughts: I like where the yellow patch is. 250 or 500 is attainable by most shooters with dedication. I think the bronze should be 260 or 520, that's a really good score. 270 or 540 would be good for the silver, that's a really great score which would be competitive most anywhere. And 275 or 550 is close to where the gold should be. That's an incredible achievement that will only be accomplished with a lot of hard work and dedication.
> 
> I'd like to get outside and see where I stand on the outdoor pins now.


But that's not realistic, to expect someone to break a 20+ year old U.S. record to earn the gold Olympian. Because that's what you're asking there.

At the very least, the three disciplines should be in line. Right now they are not. The compound Olympians are much easier to earn than recurve, and recurve are much easier to earn than barebow. 

When only one or two world-class barebow archers in the U.S. are capable of earning the Gold Olympian pin, that's out of line. Look at how many compounders every year would earn their gold. Lots.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

I think more than 2 people are capable.

But maybe I'm not sure what these are supposed to represent. I thought the gold would be for the elite shooter and a true accomplishment.

Don't get me wrong, a 260 or 270 is a great accomplishment but I'd hold the highest award to the highest standard.

What would you recommend the structure be?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

hammer08 said:


> I think more than 2 people are capable.
> 
> But maybe I'm not sure what these are supposed to represent. I thought the gold would be for the elite shooter and a true accomplishment.
> 
> ...


If you look at the previous year's indoor nationals scores, and compare the barebow achievement levels to the scores that were shot, then compare compound and recurve, you will see. Compound need to be brought up probably, and barebow need to be dropped. 

And we're talking about an Adult Achievement program, not the world championships here. If recreational archers cannot attain some of these scores, even with years of practice, they will just quit. It's not meant to showcase our handful of world class archers.

Look at the recurve Gold Olympian scores by comparison. 320 at 70M is attained every year by probably 30 or 40 men, and 10-15 women. 290 indoors is usually achieved by similar numbers.

Now compare that to barebow. Not even close. 

We (the barebow committee) recommended the adult scores fall in line with the JOAD scores of 250/260/270, and until I see 1st or 2nd year barebow archers obtaining their gold Olympian scores, I think that's where they should remain. 

Think about it. If someone shoots a 270, then they will be in the 530-540 range on an indoor fita. Now tell me, how many US barebow archers do we have that can do that? I'm pretty sure I can name them all, on one hand.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Good points. If you want to bring it in line with the amount of compound and recurve archers who achieve the various pins then I see where you're coming from. 

I do think more people are capable of those scores though.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh, I agree. Esp. now that we have some guys paving the way. I know I used to think 530's were acceptable. Now they no longer are. I'd have to shoot Demmer in the thigh to beat him with a 530. LOL.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Lol maybe not even then. 

But I was saying I think more than just 5 people are capable of shooting 530-540. Maybe that's what you were referring to I just wanted to clarify.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Capable? Maybe. But just look at the last few years' indoor nationals scores. Not that many who were over 530. Not many at all.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

hammer08 said:


> Lol maybe not even then.
> 
> But I was saying I think more than just 5 people are capable of shooting 530-540. Maybe that's what you were referring to I just wanted to clarify.


Maybe, but you shouldn't have to be an actual Olympian to earn the Gold Olympian pin. It isn't supposed to be literal. :embara:


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Sorry to bring this thread back up but how do you go about getting one of these pins if you've earned one?


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

hammer08 said:


> Sorry to bring this thread back up but how do you go about getting one of these pins if you've earned one?


The archery range I go to have a monthly indoor shoot. So we can get pins (one at a time) at those shoot. Also if you go to one of the USA Archery sanctioned tournaments then you can earn a pin per half FITA round (30 arrows = 10 ends of 3 arrows / end).


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

hammer08 said:


> Sorry to bring this thread back up but how do you go about getting one of these pins if you've earned one?


You must be a full USAA member _and_ a member of a USAA registered and participating JOAD or Adult Achievement Program (depending on your age). The club can hold qualifying rounds with tournament-like conditions where you can earn the pins one at a time, in order. Or, at the Club's discretion, you can turn in scores from actual tournaments if the distance and target size match that of your next pin requirement. 

Details are in the club handbook and on the USAA website.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I put a proposal forward for the same pin system, it seems a good motivation for the kids to keep moving forward in their development :thumbs_up


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Just to clarify: I'm a USA Archery member and shot a score at a sanctioned event but to receive the pin I'd need to be in the Adult Achievement Program?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

hammer08 said:


> Just to clarify: I'm a USA Archery member and shot a score at a sanctioned event but to receive the pin I'd need to be in the Adult Achievement Program?


Yes. The pins are issued by participating clubs, not USA Archery directly. These are not like the Star FITA pins.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank you.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

Warbow said:


> Yes. The pins are issued by participating clubs, not USA Archery directly. These are not like the Star FITA pins.


What are Star FITA pins? Are those the Olympic pins?
Thank you.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Osmanthus said:


> What are Star FITA pins? Are those the Olympic pins?
> Thank you.


No. The Star FITA pins issued by World Archery via USAA are different than the USAA Stars Pin Awards issued through JOAD and AAP clubs. The situation is a bit confusing.

A Star FITA is a USA Archery sanctioned tournament eligible to set world records under World Archery Federation (formerly "FITA") standards. The Star FITA pins are for shooting certain scores in a four distance outdoor FITA 1440 point round - a round which is rarely shot now - at a Star FITA tournament. The awards for adults are for the following recurve scores: 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300 (not listed by USAA: 1350, 1400). There are also pins for compound.

World Archery also had "FITA Target Awards" pins for various scores shot at single distance rounds, but it doesn't seem like USAA participated in that and I have no idea what World Archery currently supports in terms of these kinds of pins, if they still do at all. Searching the WA site wasn't helpful.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Very well explained. Unfortunately we have precious few leaders in this sport who can understand and explain all these very confusing rules and programs. Fewer still who generously share their knowledge for free on AT. 

People like Warbow, Dchan and others have helped more people navigate the quagmire than they will ever know.


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## hammer08 (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes, thank you so much for the thorough explanation Warbow. 

Wish I had known more about this beforehand. I'm going to look into joining a local club that's USA Archery affiliated. I think the pin system is a pretty cool thing. Still think the Gold Olympian for barebow should be higher


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

hammer08 said:


> Yes, thank you so much for the thorough explanation Warbow.
> 
> Wish I had known more about this beforehand. I'm going to look into joining a local club that's USA Archery affiliated. I think the pin system is a pretty cool thing. Still think the Gold Olympian for barebow should be higher


YW.

As to the BB gold score, well, you could always go for the sighted recurve pin with your bare bow. That should keep you busy.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

hammer08 said:


> I think the pin system is a pretty cool thing. Still think the Gold Olympian for barebow should be higher


most of the pin systems are for the recreational archer striving to become a more serious competitor. 

What good would a bare bow gold olympian pin be if no one could earn it? 

Indoor 18m on 40cm target requires 270 points. Thats every shot in the 9. BAREBOW. 

Here is last year's NATIONAL scores. 270 twice is a 540. Lets see how many archers NATIONALLY got close to a 540.

Indoor 

View attachment 3751353


two guys got close to 540. TWO. 

Now lets look at outdoor, you need 250 at 60 meters. Lets see how many got close to 250....

View attachment 3751361


So Stonebreaker, Frizell, Demmer, Magera, Harrison, Hartman and Keener got close or above it. Seven archers total. seven. And several of those are the SAME guys who got the score in the indoor. 

By your standards, if you raised it, almost NO ONE in the bare bow field would get that pin. Personally i think thats discouraging to archers and USAA setting goals for them. 


I could go back further in results, but its a moot point. To go higher than what is already set would do more harm than good. 


Chris


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Very well explained. Unfortunately we have precious few leaders in this sport who can understand and explain all these very confusing rules and programs. Fewer still who generously share their knowledge for free on AT.
> 
> People like Warbow, Dchan and others have helped more people navigate the quagmire than they will ever know.


This is remains one of the best forums. For all the occasional spats, it remains helpful and relatively drama free. I think everyone really appreciates the breadth of knowledge you and others bring to the forum. I can't help with the high end stuff the way you, dchan, Vittorio, coach Guy and many other do, but sometimes I can help with some of the translations of bureaucrateese to English.  I'd add that Texarc has done a lot to help archive the history of the NAA, and create tables to help people understand the USAA/WA age and disabilities classifications and more - doing explaining and archiving that I wish the NAA would do officially, though I do think they are putting effort into it, as we've seen with the new club handbook.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, very well put. The barebow scores have been adjusted for this year accordingly, slightly lowered for indoors, and slightly raised for outdoors. I think they are in line with reality now, as they relate to the other disciplines.


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

Warbow said:


> No. The Star FITA pins issued by World Archery via USAA are different than the USAA Stars Pin Awards issued through JOAD and AAP clubs. The situation is a bit confusing.
> 
> A Star FITA is a USA Archery sanctioned tournament eligible to set world records under World Archery Federation (formerly "FITA") standards. The Star FITA pins are for shooting certain scores in a four distance outdoor FITA 1440 point round - a round which is rarely shot now - at a Star FITA tournament. The awards for adults are for the following recurve scores: 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300 (not listed by USAA: 1350, 1400). There are also pins for compound.
> 
> World Archery also had "FITA Target Awards" pins for various scores shot at single distance rounds, but it doesn't seem like USAA participated in that and I have no idea what World Archery currently supports in terms of these kinds of pins, if they still do at all. Searching the WA site wasn't helpful.


Warbow, thank you so much for the explanation. Now I understand the difference between "Star FITA" pins and those "Star Pins Awards".


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