# Banning Spears and Atlatl hunting????



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

What's their reasoning why?

Ray :shade:


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## mursedan111 (Apr 1, 2012)

I wish they'd legalize it in KY


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## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

That is biggest problem all hunters have, if it's not my way then let them ban your way.

Go to any sportmens club, the shotgunners hate the archers, the archers hate the handgunners, the handgunners hate the riflemen, the riflemen hate the shotugunners. And the circle goes on and on.......



(substitute bowhunters for trappers, for upland, for duck, for deer, for varmint.. it really doesn't matter)


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

dan in mi said:


> That is biggest problem all hunters have, if it's not my way then let them ban your way.
> 
> Go to any sportmens club, the shotgunners hate the archers, the archers hate the handgunners, the handgunners hate the riflemen, the riflemen hate the shotugunners. And the circle goes on and on.......


I can't stand that kind of mentality! Nothing but ego! My way is better than your way BS. Grrrrrrrr!

Ray :shade:


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## mhill (Jul 11, 2011)

Whats next our rocks and sling shots. Whats the world coming too!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

goodcat said:


> Hi folks
> 
> Here in Alberta Canada our own Alberta Bowhunting Association (ABA) is proposing to ban the use of Spears and Atlatl's for hunting.
> Yes our very own is turning against us!!!!!!!
> ...


I think that you should threaten them with anarchy... Feel good legislation with no facts....


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

dan in mi said:


> That is biggest problem all hunters have, if it's not my way then let them ban your way.
> 
> Go to any sportmens club, the shotgunners hate the archers, the archers hate the handgunners, the handgunners hate the riflemen, the riflemen hate the shotugunners. And the circle goes on and on.......
> 
> ...


 Ohh.... but archers will eat their own.... mention crossbow... :grin:


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## goodcat (Mar 1, 2014)

Their reasoning is because of a few Youtube vids of some kills that some people found offensive.
Our ABA general meeting is next week.
Things will get heated....grrrrrr



BLACK WOLF said:


> What's their reasoning why?
> 
> Ray :shade:


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

They have more right in a primitive weapon season than a compound. I think you should turn it around and suggest banning compounds.

Bowmania


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## Vegeman (Jan 9, 2014)

I can understand how a spear/atlatl may be problematic in the wrong hands, but generally speaking, a hunter would have to be very experienced to take an animal with either. I don't quite understand why primitive weapons should get the boot. Isn't it in the best interest of shooting associations to promote the 'challenge' of hunting ? Or is it now all about any ol' Joe picking up a laser equipped high powered rifle and picking animals off at 400 yards. 

Its ironic that hunters/shooters contradict their own values.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> Ohh.... but archers will eat their own.... mention crossbow... :grin:


You said it  

I for one would like to see a statistic on wounding with atalati's and spears 

I think people would be surprised not only with the statistics


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Vegeman said:


> I can understand how a spear/atlatl may be problematic in the wrong hands, but generally speaking, a hunter would have to be very experienced to take an animal with either. I don't quite understand why primitive weapons should get the boot. Isn't it in the best interest of shooting associations to promote the 'challenge' of hunting ? Or is it now all about any ol' Joe picking up a laser equipped high powered rifle and picking animals off at 400 yards.
> 
> Its ironic that hunters/shooters contradict their own values.


Values should be based on clean kill percentages not what people think is more challenging


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I'll tell ya what 






I'd rather have a guy with a crossbow with a lazer coming out his arse hunting my property cleanly and selectively harvesting animals than these two knuckle heads lobbing darts at critters with no accuracy 

If someone showed up to hunt my property with these weapons I would tell them no thank you

In a survival situation ya do what ya gotta but be real when it comes to hunting for sport


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Values should be based on clean kill percentages not what people think is more challenging


"clan kill" percentages don't mean squat! Killing is very often not "clean" and that includes the slaughter of domestic animals raised to be meat. there are no laws regulating how we can kill them. Heck, it includes when we kill each other in war. In war against each other we aim to just wound. 

The reason to striving for a "clean" kill is to save the hunter a long, difficult and possibly unsuccessful tracking job. In short, it's inefficient. The only problem with a butt shot deer is that it likely won't result in a meal. You lose an expensive arrow for nothing.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> "clan kill" percentages don't mean squat! Killing is very often not "clean" and that includes the slaughter of domestic animals raised to be meat. there are no laws regulating how we can kill them. Heck, it includes when we kill each other in war. In war against each other we aim to just wound.
> 
> The reason to striving for a "clean" kill is to save the hunter a long, difficult and possibly unsuccessful tracking job. In short, it's inefficient. The only problem with a butt shot deer is that it likely won't result in a meal. You lose an expensive arrow for nothing.


We have all lost animals but the last thing I am worried about when it happens is the meal and arrow I'm missing


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The issue than becomes....what percentage is acceptable...which can become a double edged sword.

If we only allow what's the most successful...most of us will never be allowed to bowhunt again. The same arguments can and have been used against archers already.

I believe the choice in weapon should be a personal choice as long as it fits into a particular season. Bazookas and grenade launchers not included :wink:

Hunting ethics should be taught and are nearly impossible to regulate.

I've known guys who are very accurate with atlatls and spears who have been very successful hunting with them.

It's not my personal choice...neither is bowhunting for many rifle hunters.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> We have all lost animals but the last thing I am worried about when it happens is the meal and arrow I'm missing


What else is there to worry about? Well ok, there's the cost of the trip ad the long possibly unproductive tracking job. You're right. It could cost a lot more than just the arrow.

Sans a numerical measure "Accuracy" is a subjective term. Where do you think I should draw the line for the rest of you? Surely I couldn't leave it up to those who would describe an atlatl HIT as "no accuracy". That's blatantly and demonstrably FALSE.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> "clan kill" percentages don't mean squat! Killing is very often not "clean" and that includes the slaughter of domestic animals raised to be meat. there are no laws regulating how we can kill them. Heck, it includes when we kill each other in war. In war against each other we aim to just wound.
> 
> The reason to striving for a "clean" kill is to save the hunter a long, difficult and possibly unsuccessful tracking job. In short, it's inefficient. The only problem with a butt shot deer is that it likely won't result in a meal. You lose an expensive arrow for nothing.


Btw I understand killing is not always clean but........... We should all strive for it 

But to each his own 

If you are more concerned with not wasting an arrow when you loose it on an animal I feel bad for ya 

The animals we pursue deserve better 

I lost a buck two years ago that haunts me to this day 

Killing with an arrow or dart is a game of inches 

Animals deserve the best we can do


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> The issue than becomes....what percentage is acceptable...which can become a double edged sword.
> 
> If we only allow what's the most successful...most of us will never be allowed to bowhunt again. The same arguments can and have been used against archers already.
> 
> ...


There should be no regulation of hunting weapons except where it endangers other people.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> There should be no regulation of hunting weapons except where it endangers other people.


I disagree. Some regulation is needed...which is why there are separate bow and gun seasons...but to much regulation can and will bite us back. There's always a chance of endangering other people when a weapon is fired...but than again...the regulations we do have are based on chances and percentages.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Btw I understand killing is not always clean but........... We should all strive for it
> 
> But to each his own
> 
> ...


What is your reference in determining what an animal "deserves"? Be careful. There are plenty of people who think they deserve to NOT be shot at in the first place. Please present some evidence that your determination on what the animals deserve is more correct than theirs.

Of course I'm concerned with the cost of my food but how you "feel" about it is irrelevant.

The best you can do? Use a scoped rifle at close range.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I disagree. Some regulation is needed...which is why there are separate bow and gun seasons...but to much regulation can and will bite us back. There's always a chance of endangering other people when a weapon is fired...but than again...the regulations we do have are based on chances and percentages.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Why are there separate bow and gun seasons? I think it's so they can sell you more than one tag. It's a revenue enhancing thing.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> What else is there to worry about? Well ok, there's the cost of the trip ad the long possibly unproductive tracking job. You're right. It could cost a lot more than just the arrow.
> 
> Sans a numerical measure "Accuracy" is a subjective term. Where do you think I should draw the line for the rest of you? Surely I couldn't leave it up to those who would describe an atlatl HIT as "no accuracy". That's blatantly and demonstrably FALSE.


What else is there to worry about ? 

How about an animal suffering days till it dies 

True the meat will be utilized by other animals so I'm not to concerned there 

Man I'll tell ya I have hunted all my life all over the world and I have lost a few animals in my time and everyone haunts me 

I'm talking about maybe less than I can count on one hand out of hundreds and it still bothers me and I can describe every one of them 

I guess I love animals to much but if the day ever came that all I was worried about was loosing an arrow and my time looking for the animal than I'd find another past time 

I have a doe with a broken leg in my woods 

Every day when I get up I can see her from my bedroom window 

I thought of culling her especially when the snow was deep and she was having problems 

But they are tough so I put good out for her and I have been watching her 

When I can't find her I'm upset 

She is making it and the weather is breaking so I am hopeful 

I guess I'm a ***** huh ? 

I am the steward of my land and I care very much for the animals on my property 

I am for hunting and I am a hunter but I am not a butcher 

When I know I have caused an animal to suffer it bothers me to the point of loosing sleep 

The year I lost that big buck I did not hunt again and searched for the remainder of the season for him to the point I contacted neighbors and the game commission and asked if someone had recovered a deer on adjoining areas 

I tried dogs etc 

I would never consider this a waste of time 

I OWED it


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> What is your reference in determining what an animal "deserves"? Be careful. There are plenty of people who think they deserve to NOT be shot at in the first place. Please present some evidence that your determination on what the animals deserve is more correct than theirs.
> 
> Of course I'm concerned with the cost of my food but how you "feel" about it is irrelevant.


No how you feel about it is irrelevant to me 

And people that care more about their arrows than the game they hunt would not be welcome to hunt my land and that's all I can pass judgement of


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

You can't legislate ethics.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> You can't legislate ethics.


You are correct Barney

But some folks need guiding 

If not we would have snares and treble hooks hooked to wire all over the woods 

Some people care more about loosing an arrow than wounding an animal 

Right there says a lot


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I agree with the ethical stand point of doing your best to get as accurate as you need to be with your weapon of choice to make a clean and quick kill.

No your limitations and the limitations of your weapon.

Nature is allot harder on killing animals than man is....generally speaking.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> Why are there separate bow and gun seasons? I think it's so they can sell you more than one tag. It's a revenue enhancing thing.


It's also based on trying to be fair to the group of hunters who have chosen a specific weapon to hunt with. It isn't always based solely on money.

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JParanee said:


> You are correct Barney
> 
> But some folks need guiding
> 
> ...


I don't disagree. No matter what the rules, you'll always have knuckleheads. It's just very difficult, it seems to me, to separate the knuckle heads who have no respect for the life of what they hunt from the ethical hunters by controlling the method used.

I don't know of a good obvious answer. I do believe that having some regulation is necessary, and maybe selecting between evils is kind of just the nature of what we need to live with. Dunno.


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## JDBrown (Jul 18, 2013)

Just skimming the thread titles can be great for a laugh. At first glance, I thought this thread was called "Britney Spears and Atlatl hunting????" -- now _that's_ comedy!

The trouble with these sorts of debates is that they rely on what I like to call "knucklehead arguments." You know: "Well, if there's no law against it, some knucklehead might ____________."

We can't allow spears or atlatls because some knucklehead might wound a deer because they never learned how to use their equipment properly.

We can't allow "trad" bows because some knucklehead might try shooting a deer from 80 yards away.

We can't allow compounds because some knucklehead might try shooting a deer from 150 yards away.

We can't allow rifles with open sights because some knucklehead might try shooting a deer from 500 yards away.

We can't allow scoped rifles because some knucklehead might wound a deer because they didn't properly zero in their scope.

Taken to its logical conclusion, this line of thinking always leads to a complete ban on hunting, which is something (I hope) none of us wants. Plus, if we base all of our laws and rules on what some knucklehead might do, we will quickly find ourselves covered in bubble wrap inside a room lined with foam rubber. After all, there are a lot of knuckleheads out there, and their creativity knows no bounds.


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## goodcat (Mar 1, 2014)

Great points guys and very similar to the talk on one of our outdoor forums here.
Expect you guys are far more sensible.
You're right.....ethics are learned.
And knuckleheads live among us too that hunt.
There will always be hunting bashers....but when it comes from within our own organization.....it's very disturbing.
Like getting stabbed in the back.....or in this case speared in the back.
I would like to think we all practice our chosen hunting method to make an ethical kill shot.
Many a time I've let an animal go because I wasn't comfortable enough to hit the kill spot.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

MGF said:


> "clan kill" percentages don't mean squat! Killing is very often not "clean" and that includes the slaughter of domestic animals raised to be meat. there are no laws regulating how we can kill them. Heck, it includes when we kill each other in war. In war against each other we aim to just wound.
> 
> The reason to striving for a "clean" kill is to save the hunter a long, difficult and possibly unsuccessful tracking job. In short, it's inefficient. The only problem with a butt shot deer is that it likely won't result in a meal. You lose an expensive arrow for nothing.





JParanee said:


> We have all lost animals but the last thing I am worried about when it happens is the meal and arrow I'm missing





JParanee said:


> Btw I understand killing is not always clean but........... We should all strive for it
> 
> But to each his own
> 
> ...


I agree with JP. If I'm going to kill something I will do everything in my power to make it quick and final and it's not because I'm worried about a long tracking job or loosing an arrow. There's a thread/argument every year along these lines in the "Bowhunting" forum before the season and I am proud to stand with those that claim to _respect_ the animal, even when trying to kill it. I also know not everybody feels this way. I am glad that I do though and I would not be interested in hunting with someone who does not have similar feelings. 

As far as the atlatl and spear issue, there I'll respectfully disagree with JP. I'm sure in the right hands either is an effective weapon but who is to determine who is capable. The guys in the video are not a lot different in the accuracy department from some of our fellow traditional shooters; at least from what I've seen at the couple of shoots I've been too. Whatever the weapon, atlatl, recurve, compound, or rifle it's effectiveness is only as good as the person using it. Any of them will kill cleanly in competent hands and any of them are wounding machines in the hands of others. 

How do you mandate against compounders and 100 yard shots, or guys who take 500 yard shots with a rifle that they shoot half a dozen shots through the weekend before the season opens, or the same rifle hunter shooting at running deer a couple hundred yards away during a deer drive on the philosophy _"you have to try; you never know you might hit something"_ (that's a quote). How about the guy who picks up a recurve and goes hunting even though they can't shoot well enough to tune their bow, the guy who chooses a mechanical broadhead because he can't get those darn fixed blade head to fly straight, or the guy who takes an iffy shot and posts a _"can't find my deer"_ thread because he _"had to take shot, the deer was leaving"_.

All of these issues come down to personal choice. While I have strong opinions on what choice should be made I don't feel like it's right to impose my choices on others. All I can do is police my own actions.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JDBrown said:


> Just skimming the thread titles can be great for a laugh. At first glance, I thought this thread was called "Britney Spears and Atlatl hunting????" -- now _that's_ comedy!
> 
> The trouble with these sorts of debates is that they rely on what I like to call "knucklehead arguments." You know: "Well, if there's no law against it, some knucklehead might ____________."
> 
> ...


My exact thoughts :thumbs_up

By the way...I absolutely love all animals....even snakes that scare the crap out of me. We are here to rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. With that comes the responsibility to also care for the animals and not abuse them...unless of course you want to be a careless and heartless ruler.

Every time I take an animal's life...a part of me does feel some sadness.

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I think this thread covers both sides of the argument well. Cold Steel makes hunting spears. People have cleanly taken bison, buffalo, and boar with them. Clearly they work. Joe's video isn't an example of the ineffectiveness of an atlatl, but rather just some people who don't 100% know how to go about it. Folks like that can be found shooting ANY weapon though, including all types of bows and all types of firearms. It's another example of people needing more guidence, not more regulation.

The issues we have are with people, not weapons. You can't regulate stupid and more than you can legislate ethics.

I mean, we could try to get a law passed where you need to pass an IQ test to have children, but that one would be a real bear to enforce


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## mattgirard (Dec 5, 2013)

I've been practicing atlatl for 3years to hunt and I still don't feel comfortable with it I even if some knucklehead went out with one even hitting a deer would be dumb luck


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

kegan said:


> I think this thread covers both sides of the argument well. Cold Steel makes hunting spears. People have cleanly taken bison, buffalo, and boar with them. Clearly they work. Joe's video isn't an example of the ineffectiveness of an atlatl, but rather just some people who don't 100% know how to go about it. Folks like that can be found shooting ANY weapon though, including all types of bows and all types of firearms. It's another example of people needing more guidence, not more regulation.
> 
> The issues we have are with people, not weapons. You can't regulate stupid and more than you can legislate ethics.
> 
> I mean, we could try to get a law passed where you need to pass an IQ test to have children, but that one would be a real bear to enforce


Totally agree, Kegan!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Cladinator (Feb 28, 2014)

I think all of us would agree on the importance of clean, ethical kills. However, banning things are a slippery slope. It's spears and atlatls one day; recurves and longbows the next.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

We get quite a few guys round here who bring Atlatl's to 3D shoots. For what it's worth they look fun but no way are they accurate enough to hunt with by the standards we should all be setting ourselves now.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

In order to keep any right, freedom, or privilege there has to be a generous allowance for "knuckleheads". After all, anyone with skills less than our own can be labeled as such. Acknowledging a fault will ultimately lead to the loss of the activity for all through incremental exclusion. We stand together, even with the spear chucking knuckleheads or we'll fall individually.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Heads: I feel any man has a God given right to forage or hunt for food any way he chooses.

Tails: If he breaks out an Atlatl or Spear while hunting with me?...It'll be our last hunt together.

Funny Story To Lighten Things Up: I was at a 3D recently when a couple of dudes came roaming through the course and one armed with an Atlatl...both giggling like a couple school girls sneaking a cigarette...they went one lane away from us and a moment later?...I heard the sound of human feet running a few steps...followed by the familiar sound of a foot tripping on an exposed tree root....(which this swampy area was littered with)...closely followed by what sounded like a buck crashing through the brush and the very familiar sound of about 200lbs of human flesh face-planting into the swampy muck...one of them immediately broke out into wild laughter while the other one moaned out....

"I can't believe that just happened." 

I thought...oh yeah?....well believe it bucko cause it just did! :laugh:

Moments later?....the first one walked back by us again (still wiping tears of laughter from his eyes) while the other with the atlatl rig was now wearing the real life version of mossy oak! :laugh:

I struggled to maintain my composure and keep my mouth shut as I thought...so easy a caveman can do it...hugh? :laugh:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Everyone should go back and re read these post and look at what the California guys are saying. We in Ca fight this fight everyday it's not about Ethics or teaching some one to be a good hunter. It s about BANNING BOWHUNTING !!!! If you want to win a battle you started to weakest link. Here in California they started with bobcat hunting and bear hunting with dogs. Only the hound hunters cared. So now we have no dogs running bears or bobcats Next it'll be bowhunting them both fishing. The antis are banning lead and then the going to Ban sinkers think about this. When they win this fight in California their coming to your state next. And just because they work for the fish and game don't think that they're not anti hunter people in those organizations.

And if you sit back and say it will never happen in my state you're dead wrong unless we win this fight
Gary


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I respect everyone's opinion on it 

I do 

And if I came off a bit one sided it was probable the loose the arrow and waste time tracking comment that set me off 

Sorry


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

2413gary said:


> Everyone should go back and re read these post and look at what the California guys are saying. We in Ca fight this fight everyday it's not about Ethics or teaching some one to be a good hunter. It s about BANNING BOWHUNTING !!!! If you want to win a battle you started to weakest link. Here in California they started with bobcat hunting and bear hunting with dogs. Only the hound hunters cared. So now we have no dogs running bears or bobcats Next it'll be bowhunting them both fishing. The antis are banning lead and then the going to Ban sinkers think about this. When they win this fight in California their coming to your state next. And just because they work for the fish and game don't think that they're not anti hunter people in those organizations.
> 
> And if you sit back and say it will never happen in my state you're dead wrong unless we win this fight
> Gary


Gary...here's an angle I would attempt to protect my rights...Genesis 27:3...as commanded by God....now...would the court like to proceed in violating the 1st amendment of my unalienable constitutional rights as a U.S. citizen in good standing as stated in the Bill Of Rights and guaranteed by our own U.S. congress?...because Federal Law Trumps State Law at every turn and where I'm concerned?...God trumps every dang one of you!

Cause if so?....I would like to file suit against everyone involved in such illegal detainment and proceedings against me.

I mean...okay...yeah....I'm 1/2 a loon but....I'd roll with that! :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> I respect everyone's opinion on it
> 
> I do
> 
> ...


Hunting is a means of getting meat...just like buying it in a store. The cost or efficiency (cost effectiveness) is important...unless maybe you're so loaded with resources and don't need the meat or the arrow and are only killing for fun. Keeping one's self fed is a resource counting game. I'm sorry if that "sets you off". That's the way it is regardless of how one "feels" about it.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm not sure how a game animal would "feel" about it but if I were to be hunted I'd rather be hunted by a lousy shot using an ineffective weapon. I'm thinking that gives me the greatest chance of survival...and I'd rather be wounded than dead. Again, greatest chance of survival. By all means send the clown with the atlatl instead of a skilled archer with a well made bow. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's also based on trying to be fair to the group of hunters who have chosen a specific weapon to hunt with. It isn't always based solely on money.
> 
> Ray :shade:


All that's needed for conservation purposes is season dates and bag limits. The only other thing that makes sense is some common sense restrictions for safety purposes. 

All the rest is revenue generation and pandering to special interest groups who are spreading money or votes around. It just another bureaucracy doing what government does...growing itself and sucking more of our resources.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> Hunting is a means of getting meat...just like buying it in a store. The cost or efficiency (cost effectiveness) is important...unless maybe you're so loaded with resources and don't need the meat or the arrow and are only killing for fun. Keeping one's self fed is a resource counting game. I'm sorry if that "sets you off". That's the way it is regardless of how one "feels" about it.


Like I said MGF I respect everyone's opinion and you are right my primary reason for hunting is not the meat even thou I certainly do utilize it 

But when the day comes that if and when I wound an animal my primary concern is......geez I lost an arrow and now I have to waste my valuable time looking for my meat ........ I think I will throw in the towel


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> I'm not sure how a game animal would "feel" about it but if I were to be hunted I'd rather be hunted by a lousy shot using an ineffective weapon. I'm thinking that gives me the greatest chance of survival...and I'd rather be wounded than dead. Again, greatest chance of survival. By all means send the clown with the atlatl instead of a skilled archer with a well made bow. LOL


I see your point 

So from now on I will try and gut shot all my animals to give them many hours of suffering but hey they will have a fighting chance at least


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## mattgirard (Dec 5, 2013)

The problem I see in Alberta right now are the guys the decide they should buy a bow and go hunt no experience but figure a compound is like a rifle couple shots at a target every year then grab a pack of broad heads and go they don't grasp the concept of how much time it takes to get ready for archery hunting compared to the good guys


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Like I said MGF I respect everyone's opinion and you are right my primary reason for hunting is not the meat even thou I certainly do utilize it
> 
> But when the day comes that if and when I wound an animal my primary concern is......geez I lost an arrow and now I have to waste my valuable time looking for my meat ........ I think I will throw in the towel


I guess I'm not so quick to throw in the towel. I keep trying to hunt even in my diminished financial condition where I can't travel much to hunt, chances at game animals are few and far between and I'm even getting low on arrows. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> I see your point
> 
> So from now on I will try and gut shot all my animals to give them many hours of suffering but hey they will have a fighting chance at least


You're being sarcastic, right?


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> You're being sarcastic, right?


Yes sir


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Yes sir


X's 2.

Personally?...I don't give a dang about bannings or laws or anti's taking over....to me?...that's all fear based crap...mans laws....not Gods laws...I was raised to respect the animals and to acknowledge that even possessing the blessing and privilege of the physical ability to hunt comes with a certain level of responsibility that does not include punishing Gods creatures for fun with less than lethal weaponry.

I'm old and getting older...I have diabetes and am getting weaker...but would still like to get a bow hunt or two in before I pass..."mans law" here in Florida tell me it's okay to bow hunt with a 35# bow...so I bought one...a 64"/35# Bear Super Kodiak...but after tuning it and seeing what I could and could not do?..."Mans Laws" weren't good enough for me...especially with my 27" Draw....so I sold it and began looking for a replacement hunting bow in the mid 40's...to do the next right thing...and accept that a hunting weight bow is NOT of a poundage I can shoot all day long....but of a poundage that I can put that little extra effort into and practice just a few dozen shots each day for that one oh so important shot...and know I have other light-weight bows for little Billy's play time that doesn't include wounding animals...and low and behold?...I wind up with this absolutely stunning Herters Perfection Magnum landing at my house for $200...60"s/44#s and it will kill not maim...was that coincidence?...or me following the right path?

But folks are different...some lack compassion...and like the animals they wound?...suffer their way through life.

Yep...that's my .02 about it...and despite man's pathetic laws?....I refuse to base my decision making on fear.

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> X's 2.
> 
> Personally?...I don't give a dang about bannings or laws or anti's taking over....to me?...that's all fear based crap...mans laws....not Gods laws...I was raised to respect the animals and to acknowledge that even possessing the blessing and privilege of the physical ability to hunt comes with a certain level of responsibility that does not include punishing Gods creatures for fun with less than lethal weaponry.
> 
> ...


This deer season come visit me Bill


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> This deer season come visit me Bill


Careful Joe...Cause that's something I'd actually save for!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Bill I never mind having friends come for a visit


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> X's 2.
> 
> Personally?...I don't give a dang about bannings or laws or anti's taking over....to me?...that's all fear based crap...mans laws....not Gods laws...I was raised to respect the animals and to acknowledge that even possessing the blessing and privilege of the physical ability to hunt comes with a certain level of responsibility that does not include punishing Gods creatures for fun with less than lethal weaponry.


Have you ever seen a real predator kill? It's not exactly quick or "clean" is it? That's how God designed the system.


> I'm old and getting older...I have diabetes and am getting weaker...but would still like to get a bow hunt or two in before I pass..."mans law" here in Florida tell me it's okay to bow hunt with a 35# bow...so I bought one...a 64"/35# Bear Super Kodiak...but after tuning it and seeing what I could and could not do?..."Mans Laws" weren't good enough for me...especially with my 27" Draw....so I sold it and began looking for a replacement hunting bow in the mid 40's...to do the next right thing...and accept that a hunting weight bow is NOT of a poundage I can shoot all day long....but of a poundage that I can put that little extra effort into and practice just a few dozen shots each day for that one oh so important shot...and know I have other light-weight bows for little Billy's play time that doesn't include wounding animals...and low and behold?...I wind up with this absolutely stunning Herters Perfection Magnum landing at my house for $200...60"s/44#s and it will kill not maim...was that coincidence?...or me following the right path?
> 
> But folks are different...some lack compassion...and like the animals they wound?...suffer their way through life.
> 
> ...


I respect (value) game animals as a resource. Wounding (maybe killing and losing) is an awful waste. If I respected them in some other way, I probably wouldn't shoot at them at all. If I felt "compassion" for them, I absolutely would NOT kill them for sport. 

Since we seem to acknowledge that wounding is bad, I have to think that wounding one occasionally is bad too, right? If we really "respect" the animal should we risk using a weapon as crude as a stick bow? You see where that line of thinking leads? Quite a few countries have already outlawed bow hunting.

As far as I can tell, this attempt to "whitewash" killing is doing more harm than good for hunting.

AS far as fear....well there are folks of power and authority sticking their nose into every aspect of our lives to tell us how to live it. By and large that crowd does not acknowledge the existence of God or God's laws. It scares and annoys the hell out of me. It's no surprise that they want to tell you how you should kill your food.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> Have you ever seen a real predator kill? It's not exactly quick or "clean" is it? That's how God designed the system.


As a matter of fact I have...I grew up doing my best not to miss an episode of Mutual Of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and was constantly amazed at just how quick, clean and efficient Gods predatory animals in fact are...my favorite back then?...was the Cheetah...as not only did I marvel at the speed in which these creatures attacked but how they instinctively knew just where to sink their teeth into the spinal columns just behind the head instantaneously bringing down creatures 10X's their size.

I think it's also important to know (when referencing such topics) that's there's a huge difference between witnessing a predatory animal taking it's dinner and two random creatures crossing paths such as a sow warthog protecting her young...where it becomes a defensive fight for survival rather than "a hunt"...and yes...they can get prolonged and nasty...but that doesn't mean I have to operate that way as a responsible hunter.




MGF said:


> I respect (value) game animals as a resource. Wounding (maybe killing and losing) is an awful waste. If I respected them in some other way, I probably wouldn't shoot at them at all. If I felt "compassion" for them, I absolutely would NOT kill them for sport.
> 
> Since we seem to acknowledge that wounding is bad, I have to think that wounding one occasionally is bad too, right? If we really "respect" the animal should we risk using a weapon as crude as a stick bow? You see where that line of thinking leads? Quite a few countries have already outlawed bow hunting.


There's not an animal walking Gods earth that hasn't been brought down with a single well placed shot from a bow....(insert key phrase here)....*"By an educated and highly skilled archer."*....which is why many of us who intend to hunt with such are so passion driven to be as lethal and efficient as the cheetah described above.



MGF said:


> As far as I can tell, this attempt to "whitewash" killing is doing more harm than good for hunting.
> 
> AS far as fear....well there are folks of power and authority sticking their nose into every aspect of our lives to tell us how to live it. By and large that crowd does not acknowledge the existence of God or God's laws. It scares and annoys the hell out of me. It's no surprise that they want to tell you how you should kill your food.


Finally....we agree.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> As a matter of fact I have...I grew up doing my best not to miss an episode of Mutual Of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and was constantly amazed at just how quick, clean and efficient Gods predatory animals in fact are...my favorite back then?...was the Cheetah...as not only did I marvel at the speed in which these creatures attacked but how they instinctively knew just where to sink their teeth into the spinal columns just behind the head instantaneously bringing down creatures 10X's their size.


Really? TV gives you BS! A cat or even a dog might play with a mouse for a long time before finally killing it...or even start eating it while it's still alive. A bird of prey will fly off with it's talons sunk into a snake or fish that's still alive. A lion might have it's jaws clamped down on the neck of it's prey for a long time before it finally dies. I could go on but I haven't seen much "quick and clean" in nature.


> There's not an animal walking Gods earth that hasn't been brought down with a single well placed shot from a bow....(insert key phrase here)....*"By an educated and highly skilled archer."*....which is why many of us who intend to hunt with such are so passion driven to be as lethal and efficient as the cheetah described above.


And I don't think there's one that hasn't spent a long hard winter running around butt shot. How did the natives really do it? 40 hunters shooting low poundage bows at a critter until it finally had enough arrows in it to kill it?

I think everybody admits that it happens. The only way to prevent it from ever happening is to NOT shoot. If wounding one is so disrespectful, so lacking in "compassion" or so "wrong" then the only "responsible", respectful" and "compassionate" thing to do is to NOT shoot!


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## jwingman (Feb 7, 2007)

Support hunting! If you don't and end up arguing about it, we will all lose. End of comment!!!


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## Cladinator (Feb 28, 2014)

A buffoon with an atlatl is no different than a buffoon with a bow or a buffoon with a firearm. An ethical and educated huntsman is not something to worry about. 

It's the same attitude as the modern "gun-grabber". Ban the inanimate object and somehow the world is a better place devoid of evil.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I grew up on a farm as a kid and we ended up eating my pets 

I was always told not to get to close  

When he had to slaughter things we didn't pick up the worse tool in the shed 

We tried in any dealings with animals to be kind and quick 

Where I am at in my hunting life is that I am only looking for certain animals. This certainly does not have to be others choices but it is mine 

I do not bowhunt because I am into primitive weapons I bowhunt because I like it and this is the best legal weapon for the time of year and areas I hunt. The rut is the peak of my deer hunting year and this happens to be bow season 

I do not use a recurve because of the added challenge. It happens to be what I started with and what works in most of my bowhunting scenarios 

If I was heading out west I would take a cam lever with a sight if longer than my normal shots was going to be the shots I was expecting 

I have no objections to what anyone uses as long as they do their best to be adept at it

But some weapons lend themselves to cleaner harvests 

I firmly adhere to the old adage use enough gun  or bow for that matter 

Not to be argumentative but it seems like in your opinion we should all be able to hunt as if we were in a survival situation 

Meaning snares , pit falls, etc 

Believe me I do not like an over abundance of laws either but there are some very ignorant cruel people that don't treat their dogs well and would have no issue long lining animals with treble hooks etc if there were no laws against it 

As much as this pains me to say some people need regulated


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

jwingman said:


> Support hunting! If you don't and end up arguing about it, we will all lose. End of comment!!!


Thank you! It just amazes me how hunters IN PUBLIC even will trash other hunters usually over something that they know absolutely nothing about.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Cladinator said:


> A buffoon with an atlatl is no different than a buffoon with a bow or a buffoon with a firearm. An ethical and educated huntsman is not something to worry about.
> 
> It's the same attitude as the modern "gun-grabber". Ban the inanimate object and somehow the world is a better place devoid of evil.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JParanee said:


> I have no objections to what anyone uses as long as they do their best to be adept at it
> 
> But some weapons lend themselves to cleaner harvests
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

There's a difference between taking a stand against a style/ of hunting or weapon you don't personally enjoy and taking a stand against _people_ who are disrespectful and are a poor representation for our sport. There are people who kill animals for the pure enjoyment of watching something die in pain. There are those who make no effort to abide by game laws or regulations. There are individuals that make no effort beyond making a shot to collect an animal.

How a person chooses to hunt is a personal choice, no different than choosing a style of vehicle. However, as we share the land and the game animals, we all abide by the laws as a courtesy to each other. Those individuals who choose to break this agreement, or to abuse our shared resources, need to be held accountable. As hunters, we need to make those individuals aware that WE as hunters have no use for that behavior. The game and lands belong to us as citizens. Not the government (as they are in other nations) but OURS, yours and mine. If a person chooses to go afield with good sense and respect, it shouldn't matter how they choose to hunt so long as it doesn't endanger others. Those individuals who see nothing wrong with putting an arrow, spear, or bullet in every animal they see just to let them rot in the timber have no place in the field. Wild animals are a natural resource that shouldn't be wasted or abused anymore than any other. There's nothing wrong with taking a stand against individuals who show no respect for a resource or their fellow sportsmen.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> I grew up on a farm as a kid and we ended up eating my pets
> 
> I was always told not to get to close
> 
> ...


Your original statement is the correct one.... be adept at what you use. Who's criteria is "enough" gun? 

So regulating people... we've been all over this on these threads.... :grin: How are you regulating people in your mind? Equipment restrictions? I'm really interested in your answer here... education? Prove yourself before you hunt? I had to a weekend or so ago.... no body here wants to do that... :laugh: How do you propose to regulate those that need regulatin? :grin:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

kegan said:


> There's a difference between taking a stand against a style/ of hunting or weapon you don't personally enjoy and taking a stand against _people_ who are disrespectful and are a poor representation for our sport. There are people who kill animals for the pure enjoyment of watching something die in pain. There are those who make no effort to abide by game laws or regulations. There are individuals that make no effort beyond making a shot to collect an animal.
> 
> How a person chooses to hunt is a personal choice, no different than choosing a style of vehicle. However, as we share the land and the game animals, we all abide by the laws as a courtesy to each other. Those individuals who choose to break this agreement, or to abuse our shared resources, need to be held accountable. As hunters, we need to make those individuals aware that WE as hunters have no use for that behavior. The game and lands belong to us as citizens. Not the government (as they are in other nations) but OURS, yours and mine. If a person chooses to go afield with good sense and respect, it shouldn't matter how they choose to hunt so long as it doesn't endanger others. Those individuals who see nothing wrong with putting an arrow, spear, or bullet in every animal they see just to let them rot in the timber have no place in the field. Wild animals are a natural resource that shouldn't be wasted or abused anymore than any other. There's nothing wrong with taking a stand against individuals who show no respect for a resource or their fellow sportsmen.


Well said


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

kegan said:


> The game and lands belong to us as citizens. Not the government (as they are in other nations) but OURS, yours and mine.


Kegan, this is where the sticky part always comes to play. Actually, game do belong to the state, yes, the government. What that means in regards to the sticky part, is that, under license you have been given a privileged to take them under your right to use of public resources. Others claim the their right to use in observing them or leaving them and their habitat completely alone. We rely on the government to balance both user rights but maintain ownership.


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## Nevada Al (Feb 21, 2014)

> Thank you! It just amazes me how hunters IN PUBLIC even will trash other hunters usually over something that they know absolutely nothing about


X 2!

Back when I was stationed in South Carolina a friend took me on a hunt with a few guys and their dogs. This was a long time tradition for these folks. Would I do it personally, probably not. But I sure as heck am in no position to pass judgment on anybody. They were being harassed constantly by the rich city folks leasing land near them.. Tried to filed injunctions against them, set snares and traps for their dogs and so on.. 

This summer I was Fly Fishing up near Three Forks, MT. Just before noon I had almost a full limit. It was a great day. That is until this guy comes stomping down the gravel bar to me, just as I was putting my last fish in my basket. It was another fisherman but he was not happy about something! So as I stand up he precedes to read me the riot act..lol After a bit of my own confusement, I finally start to decipher his ramblings. He asks "what do you intend to do with those fish?". As I look him up and down I realize he's what I call one of those 'LL Bean' types. The same ones I recalled from South Carolina. I knew instantly what he was getting at. So I responded "Im gonna feed them to my dog tonight for dinner".. (My Drahthaar was lying over on the beach) This guy came un-glued and started screaming at me how it is un-ethical to not catch&release!!! Funny huh? another fisherman.. lol I grabbed my stuff and decided to roll out before I did something he would regret.. This looney toon still wouldn't stop though and he continued to follow me.. That is until my dog almost ripped him a new arse. As Bailey and I arrived at the parking lot and were loading up, I looked over and see a Mercedes SUV setting there,, Geez I wonder who owns that I asked my dog.

Anyway, my point being. How is it my place to decided who does what and how they do it? Especially if your a hunter..IE you KILL animals.. Its killing plain and simple.. I do my very best to hunt and fish with strong ethics (of course I still kill animals, makes sense huh.) but I would consider myself very hypocritical to judge anybody else.. Except of course I can't stand crossbow hunters..lol 

I live in NV so given the proximity to California we see this mentality constantly.. They move here to get away then eventually try to make NV just like what they left... "I don't like that so you can't do it" crap mind you own business... I don't hunt with an Atlatl or spear so I don't give two craps if you do. Has zero effect on me. 

Btw, I've seen how wolves work their magic personally up in Idaho... It ain't pretty or quick.. Funny thing is the same people going after us for hunting are the ones perpetuating the wolves.. God bless America!!!

Later, Al


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

kegan said:


> There's a difference between taking a stand against a style/ of hunting or weapon you don't personally enjoy and taking a stand against _people_ who are disrespectful and are a poor representation for our sport. There are people who kill animals for the pure enjoyment of watching something die in pain. There are those who make no effort to abide by game laws or regulations. There are individuals that make no effort beyond making a shot to collect an animal.
> 
> How a person chooses to hunt is a personal choice, no different than choosing a style of vehicle. However, as we share the land and the game animals, we all abide by the laws as a courtesy to each other. Those individuals who choose to break this agreement, or to abuse our shared resources, need to be held accountable. As hunters, we need to make those individuals aware that WE as hunters have no use for that behavior. The game and lands belong to us as citizens. Not the government (as they are in other nations) but OURS, yours and mine. If a person chooses to go afield with good sense and respect, it shouldn't matter how they choose to hunt so long as it doesn't endanger others. Those individuals who see nothing wrong with putting an arrow, spear, or bullet in every animal they see just to let them rot in the timber have no place in the field. Wild animals are a natural resource that shouldn't be wasted or abused anymore than any other. There's nothing wrong with taking a stand against individuals who show no respect for a resource or their fellow sportsmen.


Attitude and PEER Pressure to get people doing the right thing in the first place... Educate, motivate, and appreciate.... how we learned it.


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## zdogk9 (Dec 6, 2011)

Nevada Al said:


> X 2!
> 
> Back when I was stationed in South Carolina a friend took me on a hunt with a few guys and their dogs. This was a long time tradition for these folks. Would I do it personally, probably not. But I sure as heck am in no position to pass judgment on anybody. They were being harassed constantly by the rich city folks leasing land near them.. Tried to filed injunctions against them, set snares and traps for their dogs and so on..
> 
> ...



I fish, sometime I catch and release, mostly I kill and eat because I like fish. To the fish it is a mater of life and death. These catch and release only *******es are in my mind torturing fish for their enjoyment. A pox on them.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> Your original statement is the correct one.... be adept at what you use. Who's criteria is "enough" gun?
> 
> So regulating people... we've been all over this on these threads.... :grin: How are you regulating people in your mind? Equipment restrictions? I'm really interested in your answer here... education? Prove yourself before you hunt? I had to a weekend or so ago.... no body here wants to do that... :laugh: How do you propose to regulate those that need regulatin? :grin:


Rattus...as much as it pains me to say it?....cause I loath gov. intervention in anything?...imnsho?...the only thing the state of NJ had going for it was it was it's bow hunter education class...and taking and passing both the written and practical shooting exams was a requirement prior to obtaining an archery hunting permit...I took it back in the early '80's with my two uncles who were but 5 and 6 years older than me and was one of the better things I did in life back then...and I truly believe the ONLY reason it was so great?...is because *"IT WAS RUN BY Bow Hunters!"*

Men who loved the sport so much that they took time out of their lives to teach the classes, coach the shooters and administer the tests...thereby taking responsibility in order to protect that sport they loved so much and thanks to those fine men?...there wasn't a licensed bow hunter in the state of NJ that couldn't put 3 out of 3 in a paper plate at 20yds walking the deer woods.

And to this day?...I still think it was a great idea and would love to see a program start up just like it on a national level.

That's how I would propose to regulate those who need regulating but?....just cause they passed the class doesn't mean it's going to stop some over-zealous chuckle head from making bad decisions and taking ill fated shots....but the thing is....as a whole?...that we did our part to keep our side of the street clean.

There were also some (dare I say) "Traditions" back then...whereby if a fellow archer returned missing an arrow from his quiver yet no deer?...they'd get their shirt-tails cut...(remember those days boys?)....to both humiliate and remind them that wounding deer or taking sketchy shots WAS NOT OKAY! 

and those boys in JP's atlatl vid?...they should be tarred and feathered for even attempting such foolish crap...and then they upload it onto youtube for all the anti's of the world to see?....brilliant.....absolutely brilliant.  

I'm not for banning anything but I'm willing to make an acception when it comes to stupidity....especially when it jeopardizes our hunting rights...which the gov likes to call "privilages"...being the legalistic pukes they are.


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## Cladinator (Feb 28, 2014)

> Actually, game do belong to the state, yes, the government.


It is my view that _nothing_ belongs to the state/government. Regulation is not proof of ownership.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm fine with Atlatl or spear. So long as they could pass an accuracy test. Also I'd make throwing through a chrono part of the test to ensure they are able to make sufficient energy.

Then again I'd want this for bowhunters as well.

-Grant


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grantmac said:


> I'm fine with Atlatl or spear. So long as they could pass an accuracy test. Also I'd make throwing through a chrono part of the test to ensure they are able to make sufficient energy.
> 
> Then again I'd want this for bowhunters as well.
> 
> -Grant


Finally someone willing to take an accuracy test before he goes hunting..... Congratulations Grant...!!!!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I'm fine with Atlatl or spear. So long as they could pass an accuracy test. Also I'd make throwing through a chrono part of the test to ensure they are able to make sufficient energy.
> 
> Then again I'd want this for bowhunters as well.
> 
> -Grant


I agree and I think most would have a hard time but I bet a lot of chronos would die


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> I agree and I think most would have a hard time but I bet a lot of chronos would die


:laugh:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> Rattus...as much as it pains me to say it?....cause I loath gov. intervention in anything?...imnsho?...the only thing the state of NJ had going for it was it was it's bow hunter education class...and taking and passing both the written and practical shooting exams was a requirement prior to obtaining an archery hunting permit...I took it back in the early '80's with my two uncles who were but 5 and 6 years older than me and was one of the better things I did in life back then...and I truly believe the ONLY reason it was so great?...is because *"IT WAS RUN BY Bow Hunters!"*
> 
> Men who loved the sport so much that they took time out of their lives to teach the classes, coach the shooters and administer the tests...thereby taking responsibility in order to protect that sport they loved so much and thanks to those fine men?...there wasn't a licensed bow hunter in the state of NJ that couldn't put 3 out of 3 in a paper plate at 20yds walking the deer woods.
> 
> ...


Well being an NBEF instructor myself, I've got my own attitudes of lots of stuff we teach. Effective Range, of course, is something we require of everyone to know and identify of each class... IDENTIFY.... not qualify. If you hunt private land, you often times have to qualify... and that's a good thing in my opinion and outfitters have a first blood's the tag... I'm all for that too. I'm personally not for regulating equipment... there is someone always better than you that can make it work.... and regulating equipment doesn't make sense anyway... in my equipment... but how would you "regulate" somesone?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JParanee said:


> I agree and I think most would have a hard time but I bet a lot of chronos would die


"Here lies Shooting Chrony F1, he gave his life so that others may learn some ethics"

-Grant


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grantmac said:


> "Here lies Shooting Chrony F1, he gave his life so that others may learn some ethics"
> 
> -Grant


I would really like to see a guy with one make it thru the arches 

Maybe just maybe people would get what I'm saying


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

rattus58 said:


> but how would you "regulate" somesone?


with a collection of shirt-tails and a lot of tar and feathers? :laugh:

I see your point rattus and it's definitely a valid one....but I'm not joking about the above...just a couple decades ago there was a moral and ethical standard that was upheld by fellow bow hunters...and they most definitely meant it....and if you were a hail mary hack?...you were most definitely called out on it...and often times in the most humiliating ways.

Take JP's atlatl vid there...20-30 years ago?...they'd be trending with 100's of thousands of comments and none of them good...and if they wished to continue such foolhardy and disrespectful behavior?...they would be shamed out of the sport and written off as unworthy representatives of what it is we love and wish to defend.

But today?...we just argue about it with heated debate....which amounts to nothing more than lip service via the net....meanwhile the opposition rallies it forces with terrabytes of uploaded vids just like the chuckleheads in that atlatl vid....thereby casting a dark shadow over all hunters.

I like the practical exam and accuracy qualification method...but that doesn't mean there still aren't going to be some irresponcible types who need a trip behind the woodshed.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I just spent some time looking on you tube and I could not find one successful hunt but alot of very interesting practitioners


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

JParanee said:


> I would really like to see a guy with one make it thru the arches


Maybe just getting a reading could be the accuracy test.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JINKSTER said:


> with a collection of shirt-tails and a lot of tar and feathers? :laugh:
> 
> I see your point rattus and it's definitely a valid one....but I'm not joking about the above...just a couple decades ago there was a moral and ethical standard that was upheld by fellow bow hunters...and they most definitely meant it....and if you were a hail mary hack?...you were most definitely called out on it...and often times in the most humiliating ways.
> 
> ...


And you're right.... Peer pressure kept us straight... :grin:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JParanee said:


> I just spent some time looking on you tube and I could not find one successful hunt but alot of very interesting practitioners


Thanks, I thought of doing that but, it's late and I'm lazy too I guess. I figured "interesting practitioners" might be involved.:wink:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Not to be argumentative but it seems like in your opinion we should all be able to hunt as if we were in a survival situation
> 
> Meaning snares , pit falls, etc
> 
> ...


Snares are legal in my state (as they should be!). 

I'd also point out that you won't be able to hunt in a survival situation unless you've practiced hunting as if you were in a survival situation. Snares can be an effective means of feeding yourself if you know how.

What I don't understand is how tyranny become so well accepted that one man thinks he has the right to tell another that he can't snare a rabbit to feed himself. More than regulation, most people need to learn to mind their own business.


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## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I'm fine with Atlatl or spear. So long as they could pass an accuracy test. Also I'd make throwing through a chrono part of the test to ensure they are able to make sufficient energy.
> 
> Then again I'd want this for bowhunters as well.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, I'm not slamming the idea, but it is not the answer many think either. Years ago we hunted with a guy that could hit tennis balls at 60 yds all day long yet every deer season he had the longest and far too often empty blood trails. After about three years we ready to kick him off the land when he found his own place to hunt.

Adrenalin can do funny things.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> I just spent some time looking on you tube and I could not find one successful hunt but alot of very interesting practitioners


I don't know for certain but I doubt that youtube is the best place to conduct research.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> Snares are legal in my state (as they should be!).
> 
> I'd also point out that you won't be able to hunt in a survival situation unless you've practiced hunting as if you were in a survival situation. Snares can be an effective means of feeding yourself if you know how.
> 
> What I don't understand is how tyranny become so well accepted that one man thinks he has the right to tell another that he can't snare a rabbit to feed himself. More than regulation, most people need to learn to mind their own business.


I ran a trap line growing up and this is how we paid for things so I know full and well how to trap 

I do not think wire snares set for deer are legal in any state right know and they should not be 

I have spent extensive time on Africa and we spent much time cutting snares down set for everything and anything especially giraffe 

If you have ever seen an animal with his neck caught in a wire snare maybe you would feel different and if you have and still think it is fine ...... Well than you have issues 

I am not talking about a survival situation . Than you do what you have to do but most are not hunting to survive these days


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> I don't know for certain but I doubt that youtube is the best place to conduct research.


If an idiot can do it it is on you tube 

In fact you tube has more archery videos and more bushcraft skill channels than any other resource 

There is a lot of bad info for sure but some good


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> I ran a trap line growing up and this is how we paid for things so I know full and well how to trap
> 
> I do not think wire snares set for deer are legal in any state right know and they should not be
> 
> ...


sorry. I guess I wasn't thinking of snares for large game. They work fine for small game though.

I don't think it's possible to hunt for survival with today's game laws. I've known people who fed their families with what they caught and killed but they had to break plenty of game laws to do it. By law, hunting is ONLY for sport....which seems like a strange concept to me.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> sorry. I guess I wasn't thinking of snares for large game. They work fine for small game though.
> 
> I don't think it's possible to hunt for survival with today's game laws. I've known people who fed their families with what they caught and killed but they had to break plenty of game laws to do it. By law, hunting is ONLY for sport....which seems like a strange concept to me.


I understand your point and I really do respect it 

I am no fan of the game commision or regulations placed upon us 

But man I have seen some real odd people do some horrible things and they full well new they were breaking the law 

I can only imagine if there were no rules set in place what they would be doing 

Dynamite fishing ? 

Heck I used to do it as a kid for suckers with M 80's 

But can you imagine taking your kids down to the stream and have some well meaning guys show up lobbing dynamite in the water  

How about Jack lanterning deer 

A well known hunter in my area who was always killing big bucks just got arrested with a cross bow and a spot light shootong deer at night 

He was not hungry he was just infatuated with big deer and would do what ever it took to kill them 

People need guidance or there would be no deer or fish left for my kids or me and you


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

The use of explosives for fishing has some obvious problems. The first is the potential danger it causes to others and the second is non-target kill. The laws against protects people (the first purpose of law) and protects limited (or even endangered) resources which is also important.

But, I have many times wished that I could hunt deer at night. I live on a 4 acre piece of property and the vast majority of my deer traffic is at night. Oh and I don't have anyplace else around to hunt. I can't hop over to another continent (or even another state) like you can. I bought my tag just like everybody else. I've paid my share of taxes. What the hell would it hurt for me to kill a deer when they're on my property...at 3 AM?

Keep in mind that it is legal to shoot animals like *****, fox and coyote at night. But some gamoke decided that deer should be hunted some other way.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Your right MGF the bigger bucks in my area are much easier to kill with a spot light and a gun so I will start lobbying the game commission to legalize torch hunting  

Give me a break 

I also do not appreciate your hop to another continent to hunt BS 

I have been working since I was big enough to walk 

My dad was a 5 th grade drop out and I have no college education 

I have 3 jobs and bust my ass 

I am sorry if you are in dire straits 

If I can help give me a call 610 657 9515 

But don't run that I'm hungry so I should be able to spot light deer nonsense 

I was trying to be nice but don't speak down to me


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Laws are needed , I think we all know that, (Ten commandments) ect. We have elected, or appointed educated people to serve as law makers, and enforcers ect. These laws are made to best serve everyone, hunters, non hunters, animal lovers, alike. I love to hunt, and would do anything to protect that right . The best way to me is through education. and being a good role model, Ethics is either inherited, or taught. Laws will not create it. And always judge each other by character, not monetary status, Division with each other can cause more harm then good, (divide and conquer sp. )


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> Your right MGF the bigger bucks in my area are much easier to kill with a spot light and a gun so I will start lobbying the game commission to legalize torch hunting
> 
> Give me a break
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about big bucks. I'd be happy with a doe, LOL. I'm ready to quit hunting because there's noplace to hunt (that has deer) that I can afford to get to.

I do apologize for my class warfare type remarks. If you earn it, it's yours and rightfully so.

I too have worked all my life, I have a trade and a college education (that I paid for). I'm just getting too old to ply my trade and with almost 17 years engineering experience I'm having trouble finding a job (my other jobs all moved to Mexico). My income is currently next to zero and it's been falling for the last 9 years.

It's not your fault but I'm a little pissed and more than a little lost. Still, the fact remains that those with money may look at hunting differently than those without.

Thanks for the offer of help but I don't know what you could do unless you have need of somebody with a background in manufacturing, automation (electronics and controls) and testing.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

tpcowfish said:


> Laws are needed , I think we all know that, (Ten commandments) ect. We have elected, or appointed educated people to serve as law makers, and enforcers ect. These laws are made to best serve everyone, hunters, non hunters, animal lovers, alike. I love to hunt, and would do anything to protect that right . The best way to me is through education. and being a good role model, Ethics is either inherited, or taught. Laws will not create it. And always judge each other by character, not monetary status, Division with each other can cause more harm then good, (divide and conquer sp. )


I mostly agree except that we've elected a bunch of chitheads who are educated in how to use (or make) the law to cheat people out of what they worked for.

Our politicians live like rock stars regardless of their failures in their job!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF, I have not seen your property but, from descriptions you have given I think I have a mental picture in my mind. If you follow a plan, you should have more deer than you could ever eat right in your little corner of the world.
I have hundreds of acres surrounding me that hold deer, and I could hunt most of it if I choose. I don't, because I discovered many years ago that deer like to eat some foods more than others. So, As I got older I started enticing them to come to me instead of me going to them. In the summer they have a steady supply of peas and they love it. I get to lay eyes on every deer in the area. They also love okra plants which will grow later in the year. It just happens that the okra grows fairly close to my stand about a hundred and fifty yards from the house. You get the picture.

As far as the original post is concerned, I believe that rules for weapons need to be set according to the effectiveness of each on an individual basis. For instance, I'm pretty good at throwing a hammer (don't ask how I know that) but I wouldn't hunt anything with that method. The same might apply to spears etc. It's likely that the game and fish people have seen enough evidence to convince them that those methods are lacking in that department. Not saying there aren't a few people who can use them effectively. Most of the rules are based on what the game wardens see in the field.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> MGF, I have not seen your property but, from descriptions you have given I think I have a mental picture in my mind. If you follow a plan, you should have more deer than you could ever eat right in your little corner of the world.
> I have hundreds of acres surrounding me that hold deer, and I could hunt most of it if I choose. I don't, because I discovered many years ago that deer like to eat some foods more than others. So, As I got older I started enticing them to come to me instead of me going to them. In the summer they have a steady supply of peas and they love it. I get to lay eyes on every deer in the area. They also love okra plants which will grow later in the year. It just happens that the okra grows fairly close to my stand about a hundred and fifty yards from the house. You get the picture.


I'd like to hear more but every year we seem to have fewer deer through here. This year, there wasn't a single track on the property since the snow started to pile up in December. I finally saw a set of tracks yesterday and they weren't there the day before.

Normally, they come through here most nights and even come all the way up to the house.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> I'd like to hear more but every year we seem to have fewer deer through here. This year, there wasn't a single track on the property since the snow started to pile up in December. I finally saw a set of tracks yesterday and they weren't there the day before.
> 
> Normally, they come through here most nights and even come all the way up to the house.


well just to let you know?...you live in northern Indiana...and in 2012-2013?....northern Indiana was one of the places where deer populations took it on the nose hard with a sweeping outbreak of Blue Tongue Virus...here's a link but...google it up as there's many other links and states where deer populations were decimated...and yours is one of them...matter fact?...one of the largest outbreaks...and this is why you're no longer seeing tracks on your property...

http://www.bowhuntingmag.com/2013/06/18/blue-tongue-disease-in-deer/


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> I'd like to hear more but every year we seem to have fewer deer through here. This year, there wasn't a single track on the property since the snow started to pile up in December. I finally saw a set of tracks yesterday and they weren't there the day before.
> 
> Normally, they come through here most nights and even come all the way up to the house.



I assume that corn can be had in your area fairly cheaply in bulk, They love it and there's none in the fields right now. Lots of ways to make simple feeders to get them used to finding it there at any time they want it. It's a start.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I assume that corn can be had in your area fairly cheaply in bulk, They love it and there's none in the fields right now. Lots of ways to make simple feeders to get them used to finding it there at any time they want it. It's a start.


Forest....imho?...no one should be killing any deer in his state right now...read what I posted above.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> I'm not talking about big bucks. I'd be happy with a doe, LOL. I'm ready to quit hunting because there's noplace to hunt (that has deer) that I can afford to get to.
> 
> I do apologize for my class warfare type remarks. If you earn it, it's yours and rightfully so.
> 
> ...


No worries and I too am sorry 

Please do reach out to me 

I am a comercial Broker and deal with large companies 

Send me you resume and I will pass it around 

I was just asked the other day if I knew someone the could run a pharmaceutical grade supplement packaging line 

[email protected] 

As to back to the original topic 

Grant made a great point 

I do believe when using a specialized type weapon like an Atalat that maybe a proficiency Test should be required 

I know this is dangerous ground but I believe that the commitment that having to pass a proficiency test with an Atalat would bring would be good for the hunter and the animals  

As for jacklighting deer 

Ill hunt for one deer sometimes for a few seasons and it enrages me when I am awoken by a shot in the night because I know that the poaching sob ain't shooting does 

I can understand spot light shooting for culling and crop damage but in these parts it's only done for horn and that ain't good


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

As for your deer not being where you want them to be when you want them there this is simple 

Move the deer to you 

Get some friends etc and push the deer to were you can kill them 

In this area we stand hunt and push deer 

Those deer are holding up somewhere 

I have posted pics on here of multiple deer Klee on small drives by kids and adults 

When we are short on time and deer will not cooperating we push them


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

am I on like everyone's ignore list? :laugh:

This is why MGF is not seeing the deer he used too...here's yet another link...they were decimated in his area by bluetongue virus...if he see's a deer?...he should feed it and stop there....then pray it lives, grows and mulitplies.

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/deer-contract-virus-40-indiana-counties-37020/


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> am I on like everyone's ignore list? :laugh:
> 
> This is why MGF is not seeing the deer he used too...here's yet another link...they were decimated in his area by bluetongue virus...if he see's a deer?...he should feed it and stop there....then pray it lives, grows and mulitplies.
> 
> http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/deer-contract-virus-40-indiana-counties-37020/


I would never ignore you bill


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

That's pretty interesting. I used to live in northern indiana (ft wayne area) and the deer certainly were plentiful.

I know I'm late to this party.... but out here the predominate way to hunt deer is with dogs. I really dislike the practice. If someone wanted to hunt with a spear out here, more power to them. At least they would actually be in the woods, hunting, and wouldn't be taking shots at running deer...


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> I assume that corn can be had in your area fairly cheaply in bulk, They love it and there's none in the fields right now. Lots of ways to make simple feeders to get them used to finding it there at any time they want it. It's a start.


Baiting is illegal.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> As for your deer not being where you want them to be when you want them there this is simple
> 
> Move the deer to you
> 
> ...


No access to the land where the deer are. It's pretty hard to get access to public land around here. I squirrel hunt the woods where my deer live but once deer season opens it's off limits. My neighbor will share the squirrels (and I appreciate it) but he keeps the deer to himself. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JParanee said:


> No worries and I too am sorry
> 
> Please do reach out to me
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll shoot you an email.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Hey everybody,

Sorry for all the whining. I had a short pity party for myself earlier today but I'm over it now. LOL


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

dan in mi said:


> That is biggest problem all hunters have, if it's not my way then let them ban your way.
> 
> Go to any sportmens club, the shotgunners hate the archers, the archers hate the handgunners, the handgunners hate the riflemen, the riflemen hate the shotugunners. And the circle goes on and on.......
> 
> ...




Yep, and that kind of stuff furthers the left-wing, anti hunter crowd's agenda.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

The problem is as I see it and while there will always be contention in the ranks is everyone has a different opinion and outlook on how natural resources should be managed and used 

Some believe in antler restrictions some do not 

Some believe that people should pass young deer, others like the way they taste  

No one is wrong and no one is right 

Folks will always have different opinions and be able to offer up reasons why they have them 

I have no problems with people using easier as in more efficient or easier to be proficient with hunting tools 

Here in Pa archery season I can honestly say some years if I polled people the deer that are lost and not recovered could be at around a 50 % rate 

I have been attending some of the bigger 3 D shoots the last few years and I'll be honest accuracy sucks  and animals suffer because of it 

I am no Robin Hood. I have been very successful but the big buck I lost 2 years ago haunted me this whole past season and I've been doing this my whole life, we all loose animals it happens 

So when you bring up a weapon like an Atalat it makes me cringe kinda 

Believe me I'm for everyone's right to express their choice in weapons from crossbows to slingshots but I would not suggest deer hunting with a weapon that got replaced as soon as the bow was invented  

Although I am thinking about climbing my stand and using a big rock this year


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

JParanee said:


> The problem is as I see it and while there will always be contention in the ranks is everyone has a different opinion and outlook on how natural resources should be managed and used
> 
> Some believe in antler restrictions some do not
> 
> ...


Do away with Bowhunting.... Case Closed!


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## jacurley45 (Feb 9, 2014)

MGF said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Sorry for all the whining. I had a short pity party for myself earlier today but I'm over it now. LOL


No worries as I do completely understand what you're going through. It's pretty common nowadays especially in Southern California. I am sure that lot of people here either knows someone or went through same thing. 


I went to private university for 5 years and graduated with Photo Science bachelor degree. Now I have no steady job & been looking for two years. It does sucks as I have two kids & a wife to support with my odd jobs such as doing flooring jobs, landscaping, working in sawmill & some carpentry. It's starting to get its toils on my body. I haven't been paying my credit card & fat student loan debts ever since my graduation but at least my family are happy & I'm still able to go hunting when I'm not too low on the savings. ;-) I still think god is good & it's ridiculous that USA is still outsourcing its jobs oversea when we are hurting for economic stability. 

In fact, I'm considering about going back to school at local community college but for mechanic certifications as you can't go wrong with that field. ;-) but again I'm only 27 so it's not too late for me to change my path. My father went through same phase as you did as he was 'overqualified' & no one hired him for almost three years. I hope something will turns up for you tho.


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## jacurley45 (Feb 9, 2014)

JParanee said:


> The problem is as I see it and while there will always be contention in the ranks is everyone has a different opinion and outlook on how natural resources should be managed and used
> 
> Some believe in antler restrictions some do not
> 
> ...


This supports Grant's suggestion via being tested for accuracy... 

Personally, I do actually agree with this as it's too easy for many people to just go out & try 'their best' to get humane kills even if they sucks at their chosen weapon. I think it should be more of the tag dependent... Not the hunting license itself tho. 

Some people do not have a good critical thinking & logics... That's why I opted to use shotgun for this upcoming Spring Turkey season as I know I'm still not good enough for bow-hunting a small targets as turkey at 30 yards. However it's different for wild pigs as I can get the vitals at that distance. However, I'm planning on practicing on pests such as ground squirrels or crows at my friend's property for moving targets. ;-) Those pests are actually destroying my friend's property & gardens so it's either using the .22 or my bow. I rather to use the bow than the .22!


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## uabdave (Mar 12, 2007)

JParanee, I also grew up on a farm. I'll never forget when I got to the huge city of Birmingham, AL... huge compared to the dinky town I grew up in in south Bama anyway... I went to Optometry school up there. We had sort of a class intro where the 40 of us said a little about ourselves. I of course said I grew up on a farm. We mostly row cropped cotton, peanuts, wheat, and occasional corn, but had a few cows every year and hogs when I was a kid. Anyway one of the girls asked what our cows names were and I was like, huh? I thought for a second and said... Tbone, Ribeye, New York strip, Cheeburger, and the real fat one was Filet. Her jaw dropped and I was just a horrible person for a while. I guess everyone doesnt understand that not all farms are Greenacres with the pets for farm animals.

Dave


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

jacurley45 said:


> This supports Grant's suggestion via being tested for accuracy...
> 
> Personally, I do actually agree with this as it's too easy for many people to just go out & try 'their best' to get humane kills even if they sucks at their chosen weapon. I think it should be more of the tag dependent... Not the hunting license itself tho.
> 
> Some people do not have a good critical thinking & logics... That's why I opted to use shotgun for this upcoming Spring Turkey season as I know I'm still not good enough for bow-hunting a small targets as turkey at 30 yards. However it's different for wild pigs as I can get the vitals at that distance. However, I'm planning on practicing on pests such as ground squirrels or crows at my friend's property for moving targets. ;-) Those pests are actually destroying my friend's property & gardens so it's either using the .22 or my bow. I rather to use the bow than the .22!


If you're a lousy shot, you just don't bring much home from hunting.

I'm not sure what you think accuracy tests will accomplish though. Last year was an interesting shooting year for me. I shot a 273 on an AFAA 40 cm target and missed the only shot I had at a deer at 17 yards. Missed her clean. 

I could pass any reasonable test the state would administer but I can still miss a deer. I guess I could wound one too. I'd also be really pissed about more government intrusion. Don't you guys get tired of having the government up tour butts about everything? Who cares about a few wounded deer when the government is climbing up your shorts all the time?

There always somebody wanting to tell somebody else what to do. That's why we have wars.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> If you're a lousy shot, you just don't bring much home from hunting.
> 
> I'm not sure what you think accuracy tests will accomplish though. Last year was an interesting shooting year for me. I shot a 273 on an AFAA 40 cm target and missed the only shot I had at a deer at 17 yards. Missed her clean.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up



MGF said:


> Who cares about a few wounded deer when the government is climbing up your shorts all the time?


I personally will always care...even though some of the things government does...is not always based on benefitting the people.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

uabdave said:


> JParanee, I also grew up on a farm. I'll never forget when I got to the huge city of Birmingham, AL... huge compared to the dinky town I grew up in in south Bama anyway... I went to Optometry school up there. We had sort of a class intro where the 40 of us said a little about ourselves. I of course said I grew up on a farm. We mostly row cropped cotton, peanuts, wheat, and occasional corn, but had a few cows every year and hogs when I was a kid. Anyway one of the girls asked what our cows names were and I was like, huh? I thought for a second and said... Tbone, Ribeye, New York strip, Cheeburger, and the real fat one was Filet. Her jaw dropped and I was just a horrible person for a while. I guess everyone doesnt understand that not all farms are Greenacres with the pets for farm animals.
> 
> Dave


We eat our animals but my wife still names them. You have to have some way of referencing them so it's either a name or a number.

You right though. There are fewer and fewer people who understand killing your own meat whether it's wild game or livestock. It because such a huge percentage of people today live in the city or live as if they lived in a city. All they know is the grocery store.

Heck, even if they hunt, all they know is "sport hunting". IMO, the modern version of sport hunting with all the stupid TV shows and commercialism has just about ruined hunting.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I care enough to spend a lot of time shooting my bow.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF said:


> We eat our animals but my wife still names them. You have to have some way of referencing them so it's either a name or a number.
> 
> You right though. There are fewer and fewer people who understand killing your own meat whether it's wild game or livestock. It because such a huge percentage of people today live in the city or live as if they lived in a city. All they know is the grocery store.
> 
> Heck, even if they hunt, all they know is "sport hunting". IMO, the modern version of sport hunting with all the stupid TV shows and commercialism has just about ruined hunting.


I agree whole heartily with your last statement


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

MGF said:


> Baiting is illegal.


True, but I find it hilarious and ridiculous, when you consider that food plots, or hunting near an apple tree, is entirely legal. If the deer come to eat your food before you harvest it, and you shoot them, that's okay. If they eat an apple that falls on the ground, and you shoot them, that's okay. If you pick the apple off the true, and put it on the ground, that's baiting. If I used a target on top of Alfalfa bales, and the deer happened to walk onto my private property during deer season, and I happened to carry broadheads on my bow quiver, is that illegal?

I understand the concept for fair chase, I just consider the particular application of the law stupid.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

MGF said:


> IMO, the modern version of sport hunting with all the stupid TV shows and commercialism has just about ruined hunting.


I don't watch much television, but of the little I have seen of hunting shows, it seemed like they've lost their way when it comes to respecting and appreciating the entirety of what we've been given. It's alive. It has a mind. It knows what's happening to it. It's dying in front of you. Show a little respect, even if only because it is a gift of our own Creator.

What's more, people who don't hunt get the impression that hunters act and think like that, which only endangers our rights, both in terms of hunting, but also when it comes to owning, carrying, and using weapons of choice.

Soap box dismounted...


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> Baiting is illegal.



I'm not baiting, I'm providing habitat and nutrition for the deer. The fact that they are fat and happy to be here is just icing on the cake.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't watch much television, but of the little I have seen of hunting shows, it seemed like they've lost their way when it comes to respecting and appreciating the entirety of what we've been given. It's alive. It has a mind. It knows what's happening to it. It's dying in front of you. Show a little respect, even if only because it is a gift of our own Creator.
> 
> What's more, people who don't hunt get the impression that hunters act and think like that, which only endangers our rights, both in terms of hunting, but also when it comes to owning, carrying, and using weapons of choice.
> 
> Soap box dismounted...



There are probably lots of hunters who do think and act 'like that'. Some people tend to copy the r******ed stuff they see on the tube. It's a big problem in our society as a whole.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> True, but I find it hilarious and ridiculous, when you consider that food plots, or hunting near an apple tree, is entirely legal. If the deer come to eat your food before you harvest it, and you shoot them, that's okay. If they eat an apple that falls on the ground, and you shoot them, that's okay. If you pick the apple off the true, and put it on the ground, that's baiting. If I used a target on top of Alfalfa bales, and the deer happened to walk onto my private property during deer season, and I happened to carry broadheads on my bow quiver, is that illegal?
> 
> I understand the concept for fair chase, I just consider the particular application of the law stupid.


I can't swallow the concept of "fair chase". I know BS when I hear it! It's a TV thing.

Fair chase is when a guy spends a LOT of money buying access to choice land, all the expensive hunting clothes and gadgets, puts up a bunch of tree stands, buys the highest tech arrow launching machines and snipes at the many deer that are bound to wander past. Then he comes on the net to tell everybody what a great hunter he is and lobbies to stop guys like me with 4 acres from throwing a little corn on the ground to get a deer to step to our side of the fence where we might get a shot...because it isn't "fair chase".

"Fair chase" is one of those terms that makes me want to slap somebody every time I hear it. I can't slap anybody but I will call BS.



What fair chase? The state collects their license fee no matter what. LOL they always take the role of the house when they gamble.


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## 257 roberts (Jul 31, 2006)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't watch much television, but of the little I have seen of hunting shows, it seemed like they've lost their way when it comes to respecting and appreciating the entirety of what we've been given. It's alive. It has a mind. It knows what's happening to it. It's dying in front of you. Show a little respect, even if only because it is a gift of our own Creator.
> 
> What's more, people who don't hunt get the impression that hunters act and think like that, which only endangers our rights, both in terms of hunting, but also when it comes to owning, carrying, and using weapons of choice.
> 
> Soap box dismounted...


nice post!! agree 100%


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

257 roberts said:


> nice post!! agree 100%


I 2nd. that! :thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JDBrown (Jul 18, 2013)

MGF said:


> I can't swallow the concept of "fair chase". I know BS when I hear it! It's a TV thing.
> ...


That's interesting, because I've never seen "fair chase" as a TV thing; I've always seen it as an anti-hunting thing. It's not that uncommon a tactic -- all you have to do is romanticize the way things used to be done "back in the day" (regardless of how inaccurate that romanticization is), and then use that to paint the way it's done now as being somehow bad or inferior. This is the way the neo-Trad types we often see mocked on this forum behave -- they romanticize the archery of the past, and then use that image to put down anybody who chooses to do things in a more "modern" way.

As some of you may know, I'm not a hunter. I'd like to be one someday, but it's just not something my family ever did when I was a kid, and I haven't found the time to get into it as an adult. But even as a non-hunter from a family of non-hunters, I've always recognized "fair chase" as the language of elitist hunters at best, and anti-hunters at worst. They have created this notion that hunting was okay back in the days when the Indians ruled the plains, because the game stood a fair chance of escaping -- the hunter had to engage in a "fair chase" in order to get his game. But now, with modern hunting equipment like deer rifles, range finders, camouflaged clothing, scent-blockers, and all the rest, the animal doesn't stand a fair chance -- there's no "fair chase" anymore. Therefore, even though hunting was okay in centuries past, it needs to be banned, or at least severely restricted, now.

That's the implication I've always gotten from the phrase "fair chase", and even as a non-hunter it gets me angry every time.

I agree with those who have said that ethics need to be taught. Unfortunately, we seem to be doing our very best as a society to remove all of the institutions that used to teach us ethics. Church attendance dwindles, as do families where children are raised by a loving father and mother -- but that's okay, because good ol' Uncle Sam is here to step in and replace their old fashioned ethics with shiny new laws! When this happens, everyone suffers, not least because laws have a tendency to not always be applied using common sense. Where ethics would tell you not to hunt with a spear unless you're good enough to get a clean kill with it, laws will ban it altogether, no matter how good you are. I'm not sure what I find sadder -- the loss of freedom we suffer from an overabundance of laws, or the moral decay that has caused those laws to be possible, perhaps even necessary.

I grew up believing that you should eat what you kill. Let me reiterate that I was taught this even though no one in my family hunted. Actually, I think that might be part of the reason my dad didn't hunt -- he didn't want to deal with tracking, gutting, skinning, etc., and there was no way he was going to shoot something and just leave it there. The one exception to this rule was pests -- we didn't eat the 2 or 3 possums that we killed in my parents' backyard, and the only reason we killed them at all was because they kept eating my mom's cat's food ... and then they ate her cat.

I actually got into a bit of an altercation with another boy at Scout Camp one year, when I tried to get him to cook and eat a squirrel he'd killed with a figure 4 trap. Sadly, it seems fewer and fewer of our young people believe in anything resembling hunting ethics anymore. They're more like this boy who built the trap, and then tied the dead squirrel to a rock and chucked it in the lake to avoid being forced to clean, cook and eat it. Oh, he got a stern talking to from the Scoutmaster and everything, but to this day that whole incident still bothers me a bit. I suppose it's because I believe that God has made us stewards over the animals, and I believe that there will be a reckoning one day, dealing with how good or bad of a job we have done in that stewardship. And I believe that reckoning will have very little to do with how many animals we did or didn't kill. I tend to think the questions will have much more to do with how much of the animals we killed was used vs. how much was wasted. And I doubt very much that the guy who takes the antlers and leaves the body to rot will fare very well in that interview. This is why I wouldn't dream of going hunting yet, because I don't think I'm ready to take a shot at a live animal and I don't want to wound one just because I got impatient. But that's just me; you can believe differently if you want to.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> I can't swallow the concept of "fair chase". I know BS when I hear it! It's a TV thing.
> 
> Fair chase is when a guy spends a LOT of money buying access to choice land, all the expensive hunting clothes and gadgets, puts up a bunch of tree stands, buys the highest tech arrow launching machines and snipes at the many deer that are bound to wander past. Then he comes on the net to tell everybody what a great hunter he is and lobbies to stop guys like me with 4 acres from throwing a little corn on the ground to get a deer to step to our side of the fence where we might get a shot...because it isn't "fair chase".
> 
> ...


Fair Chase is anything but a TV thing. Pope and Young some number of years ago codified the idea of fair chase, not some tv program. Jim Posewitz expanded on that with Beyond Fair Chase.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't watch much television, but of the little I have seen of hunting shows, it seemed like they've lost their way when it comes to respecting and appreciating the entirety of what we've been given. It's alive. It has a mind. It knows what's happening to it. It's dying in front of you. Show a little respect, even if only because it is a gift of our own Creator.
> 
> What's more, people who don't hunt get the impression that hunters act and think like that, which only endangers our rights, both in terms of hunting, but also when it comes to owning, carrying, and using weapons of choice.
> 
> Soap box dismounted...


Barney great post


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Fair chase has nothing to do with baiting if it is legal in that area 

Fair chase is hunting animals that are not impeded by a fence it is basically hunting wild animals not high fence animals 

South Africa is all high fence so technically it is not fair chase even thou fenced areas could be hectors

Texas is full of high fence hunting so this is not fair chase 

I do not hunt in high fence areas

it is not my cup of tea, but I have no problem with it or anyone that does it

One of my friends had a big whitetail ranch that was fenced in Texas 

Every year I would take e guys out and they would spend big bucks for big bucks  

I would not hunt but the place was crazy. Like Jurassic Park for deer 

I


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't watch much television, but of the little I have seen of hunting shows, it seemed like they've lost their way when it comes to respecting and appreciating the entirety of what we've been given. It's alive. It has a mind. It knows what's happening to it. It's dying in front of you. Show a little respect, even if only because it is a gift of our own Creator.
> 
> What's more, people who don't hunt get the impression that hunters act and think like that, which only endangers our rights, both in terms of hunting, but also when it comes to owning, carrying, and using weapons of choice.
> 
> Soap box dismounted...


Great post Barney, good use of the box...:thumbs_up


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## brettd (Jan 3, 2014)

mhill said:


> Whats next our rocks and sling shots. Whats the world coming too!


uh, yes.

See discussions on legality of slinging on Slinging.org. Turns out that slinging (rotation of a rock in a pouch, not using rubber bands to shoot stuff) is technically illegal in some areas, as it can fall under broad under categories of unspecified weapons designed to kill. Slinging is so under the radar, though, that pretty much nobody every pays attention. I carry mine on aircraft all the time (never know where you'll find some good rocks!) and nobody ever ares.


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

Don't touch those... they are the "King's Deer!".... or in the modern parlance of our times those are the "People's" deer, and the people don't want them hurt...

We should strive for ethical harvesting of our food, but making a* tool designed for the harvesting of wild game *illegal because of our emotional response to statistics or unfamiliarity smacks of the "King's Deer" to me. If it is designed to take animals, let it take animals. Many nations in Europe don't allow the use of a bow for the taking of game because they consider it barbaric. I like to think here in North America we are less closed minded.

Two cents of many...


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Fair Chase is anything but a TV thing. Pope and Young some number of years ago codified the idea of fair chase, not some tv program. Jim Posewitz expanded on that with Beyond Fair Chase.


It's all all the same stuff. Pope and young, Boon an Crocket...trophy hunting, magazines, TV and get them to spend a LOT of money for their "trophy".


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I wish guys would stop using the term "harvesting". It's not harvesting it's hunting and killing. Nothing wrong with that so why hide it behind a nicer looking word?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

submarinokotbw said:


> Don't touch those... they are the "King's Deer!".... or in the modern parlance of our times those are the "People's" deer, and the people don't want them hurt...
> 
> We should strive for ethical harvesting of our food, but making a* tool designed for the harvesting of wild game *illegal because of our emotional response to statistics or unfamiliarity smacks of the "King's Deer" to me. Two cents of many...


Of the time you mention, it was not the people's game. Wild game was the "private property" of the king and the wealthy landowners. That's what gave them regulatory power, ownership, over who could take them and who could not. We have a different system in direct contrast and in direct opposition to that old-world system.

We have placed the game under the ownership of the people, the public, and not in individual "private ownership", which is considered illegal, but in public ownership, which then falls under the regulatory power of the people through their governments to represent all people, even those who do not want them taken.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Bigjono said:


> I wish guys would stop using the term "harvesting". It's not harvesting it's hunting and killing. Nothing wrong with that so why hide it behind a nicer looking word?


Nope... I think most here want to keep hunting... its the reason you don't do into a 7-11 with a bloody camo shirt on or blood on your hands or leave your deer or sheep cooking on your hood.... :grin:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know...I don't really buy any camo, although, I have some old stuff laying around that I use for squirrel hunting. I don't get much blood on my shirt but I usually string my squirrels on a piece of twine and hang them from my belt so my pants sometimes get bloody.

I don't do much shopping on my way home from hunting but I might have to stop for gas or something. If somebody doesn't like the blood on my pants they can look the other way. I don't like their body piercing or tattoos either. I sure as hell don't like having to listen to their lousy music blasting out of their car windows.

The thing is this. If they think they can use my bloody pant as a reason to end hunting then we should just fight. To hell with them!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> I don't know...I don't really buy any camo, although, I have some old stuff laying around that I use for squirrel hunting. I don't get much blood on my shirt but I usually string my squirrels on a piece of twine and hang them from my belt so my pants sometimes get bloody.
> 
> I don't do much shopping on my way home from hunting but I might have to stop for gas or something. If somebody doesn't like the blood on my pants they can look the other way. I don't like their body piercing or tattoos either. I sure as hell don't like having to listen to their lousy music blasting out of their car windows.
> 
> The thing is this. If they think they can use my bloody pant as a reason to end hunting then we should just fight. To hell with them!


Fight what... you're just a 10%er. You all think you have rights here, think again. Right now here in Hawaii, our numbers are starting to be used against us and you think you have numbers to overcome a brain_drained_brain_washed urban public who thinks animals have personality?


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

Respectfully, I understand. I am always grateful for the North American system of game management. I don't think I was clear enough. Your and my view of it as the people's resource for use, is not how all the people view it. In the realm of environmental protection, conservationists are lessening and preservationists are increasing. It is what is being taught at universities--I am an environmental studies major. Preservation is the foundation of old world "kings deer" mentality. The demographic is changing, and the new attitudes say that the people must preserve not conserve. I read a book in college that said if you harvested 2% of an animal's population anually that was enough to ensure the future extinction of a species. 

Hunting cant be left to public opinion. Free speech, firearms, the press, religion, assembly and voting rights are not subject to democracy. If you pursue the definition of "people's" in purely democratic terms the acquisition of food ceases to be a civil right and becomes a privilege granted or dissolved by the will of the people.

The "people" can be just as capricious as a private landowner or king. Whether the tyrant is a single individual or a voting collective, is of no consequence to me. In fact I think I would prefer a single tyrant because they are by nature less efficient than a majority of the populace in agreement.

I just think that there are some things that should not be subject to a vote: like our Civil Rights--procuring food being a civil right...in my mind.



Sanford said:


> Of the time you mention, it was not the people's game. Wild game was the "private property" of the king and the wealthy landowners. That's what gave them regulatory power, ownership, over who could take them and who could not. We have a different system in direct contrast and in direct opposition to that old-world system.
> 
> We have placed the game under the ownership of the people, the public, and not in individual "private ownership", which is considered illegal, but in public ownership, which then falls under the regulatory power of the people through their governments to represent all people, even those who do not want them taken.


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

With respect. I'm not hiding. I am simply being polite. Also, Harvesting is an applicable term commensurate with the activity of hunting. Why would I pour salt on the wound's of other people's sensitivity? 



Bigjono said:


> I wish guys would stop using the term "harvesting". It's not harvesting it's hunting and killing. Nothing wrong with that so why hide it behind a nicer looking word?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

submarinokotbw said:


> Respectfully, I understand. I am always grateful for the North American system of game management. I don't think I was clear enough. Your and my view of it as the people's resource for use, is not how all the people view it. In the realm of environmental protection, conservationists are lessening and preservationists are increasing. It is what is being taught at universities--I am an environmental studies major. Preservation is the foundation of old world "kings deer" mentality. The demographic is changing, and the new attitudes say that the people must preserve not conserve. I read a book in college that said if you harvested 2% of an animal's population anually that was enough to ensure the future extinction of a species.
> 
> Hunting cant be left to public opinion. Free speech, firearms, the press, religion, assembly and voting rights are not subject to democracy. If you pursue the definition of "people's" in purely democratic terms the acquisition of food ceases to be a civil right and becomes a privilege granted or dissolved by the will of the people.
> 
> ...


I hear you, but if procuring food was a civil right, we could rightfully raise cattle and pigs in downtown Manhattan  Heck, I can't legally raise pigs in my little suburban-ochlocratic neighborhood.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Animals can definitely have personality. I've also witnessed them show joy and happiness.

My dogs are living proof.

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Just a thought here...but I love it...


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Animals can definitely have personality. I've also witnessed them show joy and happiness.
> 
> My dogs are living proof.
> 
> Ray :shade:


thas right... so think of someone stalking ol wolfdog with his less than human bow and arrow..... good for harvest... or not.... :laugh: Bambi, Alice, and Bugs....


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Fight what... you're just a 10%er. You all think you have rights here, think again. Right now here in Hawaii, our numbers are starting to be used against us and you think you have numbers to overcome a brain_drained_brain_washed urban public who thinks animals have personality?


LOL but we're the 10% who have weapons and sneak around the woods for fun. The 10%ers (or fewer) fought the Revolution.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> thas right... so think of someone stalking ol wolfdog with his less than human bow and arrow..... good for harvest... or not.... :laugh: Bambi, Alice, and Bugs....


I'm not sure I get your point with that statement. Please help me to understand.

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm not sure I get your point with that statement. Please help me to understand.
> 
> Ray :shade:


 *sigh*...... you obviously aren't a tree hugger, bunner hugger, or cartoon lover.....


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> *sigh*...... you obviously aren't a tree hugger, bunner hugger, or cartoon lover.....


No...I love 'em all!!! :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> No...I love 'em all!!! :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


well you aint gonna be too happy with some of my errant roving practice then... :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

rattus58 said:


> well you aint gonna be too happy with some of my errant roving practice then... :laugh:


Well...I also shoot two of 'em and watch one of 'em :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Well...I also shoot two of 'em and watch one of 'em :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


I shot my first turkey with a rubber blunt doing something like that...:laugh: killed it deader'n'astone for it hit the ground even... I've suggested to DLNR to allow me to shoot blunts for turkey season... :grin:... *sigh*... an uphill challenge some of these things.... :laugh:


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## SpiritArcher (Aug 18, 2011)

Wow. I live in Alberta and bowhunt occasionally with both my compound and stickbow. I had no idea that spears and atlatls were legal.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

SpiritArcher said:


> Wow. I live in Alberta and bowhunt occasionally with both my compound and stickbow. I had no idea that spears and atlatls were legal.


they are here in Hawaii... but crossbows... ILLEGAL.... we are truly screwed here... :grin:


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

rattus58 said:


> they are here in Hawaii... but crossbows... ILLEGAL.... we are truly screwed here... :grin:


Well heck, Obama got his second birth certificate there, surely he can help you…….


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Big Country said:


> Well heck, Obama got his second birth certificate there, surely he can help you…….


 yeah... like he's a part of our culture here.... he only comes here to golf... :grin:
and I'm into a different culture all the way... :laugh:


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

rattus58 said:


> they are here in Hawaii... but crossbows... ILLEGAL.... we are truly screwed here... :grin:


if that's what you think you better stay away from my hole of a country then (australia) spears an atlatls illegal, most types of guns illegal (an most of us will never get a chance to even shoot a gun ) crossbows for the most part illegal, carrying an simple pocket knife (swiss army) illegal the list goes on

same groups that lobbied against guns etc are trying to do the same to bows, most hunting now can only be done on private land NO! public land (small parts can be hunted on public land but it's very, very limited)

an some of you think your hard done by  ..........please


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ajoh said:


> if that's what you think you better stay away from my hole of a country then (australia) spears an atlatls illegal, most types of guns illegal (an most of us will never get a chance to even shoot a gun ) crossbows for the most part illegal, carrying an simple pocket knife (swiss army) illegal the list goes on
> 
> same groups that lobbied against guns etc are trying to do the same to bows, most hunting now can only be done on private land NO! public land (small parts can be hunted on public land but it's very, very limited)
> 
> an some of you think your hard done by  ..........please


Freedom... You've let yourselves give it away.... I absolutely understand your plight.. that is why I live in AMERICA.... South Africa though... :grin:


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

rattus58 said:


> Freedom... You've let yourselves give it away.... I absolutely understand your plight.. that is why I live in AMERICA.... South Africa though... :grin:


i agree an there's not enough of people that think along the same lines as me to fight back.......i've always been the odd one out an sadly i'm just one man.......
rattus you can believe this if i had the $$ i'd take a steaming dump on this country an move to america in half a heart beat..........

believe me i know america isn't bed of roses (i have friends over there) but at least i'd be looked upon as "normal" just another guy who is into what he loves
instead of an outcast ..............

i've said it before don't ever let any government department take away anything no matter if it's spear & atlatl hunting (EVEN! if you don't agree with it)
carrying a simple pocket knife etc

i call it death by 1000 cuts or "the boiling a frog thing" because they remove small things one at time an they build up an before you know it you've lost it all

"boiling a frog, throw a frog into boiling water it'll jump out however put that frog into cool water an slowly bring it boil the frog will sit there an boil alive!"
(for those that didn't understand what i meant by it)


this is how i see it; to me trophy hunting (legal) is wrong, hunting an animal just to get it's horns/head or hide just to show off is wrong HOWEVER!!
i refuse to try an put a stop to it or speak out against it because it only gives the bleeding heart, tree huggin, vegetarian libs more ammo to be used against all of us 



some may think why is this stupid australian telling us what to do for......simple because if you allow these things to be taken from you, you'll end up losing 
everything you love an end up like me, p*ssed off at the country, p*ssed of at the generation that let this stuff happen the list goes on of the things i'm p*ssed off at

you get the picture though (damn 12/2012 for not happening :angry1


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

ajo, I love America but we have been gradually losing our freedoms 
Actually, it started right out of the gate when we failed to abolish slavery in every state. Ignoring our Constitution has always brought us nothing but trouble. I believe we've let corrupt politicians violate our Federal Constitution by allowing " unlawful" Amendments be ratified to the Constitution, like the Prohibition Amendment.
Obama Care, Social Security, Federal Reserve, gun control, 90 % of the regulations in our country are un-consitutional. Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt brought us the Progressive Movement by the end of WW1.
A simple law such as..seat belt laws, we think nothing about. But we eventually wind up being told what we can and cant do in the privacy of our own vehicle.
Our HUNTING RIGHTS in America hang in the balance and most US citizens dont even see it. They would never do that...really?? If they can force us to pay an illegal income tax and report to the IRS our personal health information...they will eventually do whatever the hell they want to do.


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

Curve1 said:


> ajo, I love America but we have been gradually losing our freedoms
> Actually, it started right out of the gate when we failed to abolish slavery in every state. Ignoring our Constitution has always brought us nothing but trouble. I believe we've let corrupt politicians violate our Federal Constitution by allowing " unlawful" Amendments be ratified to the Constitution, like the Prohibition Amendment.
> Obama Care, Social Security, Federal Reserve, gun control, 90 % of the regulations in our country are un-consitutional. Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt brought us the Progressive Movement by the end of WW1.
> A simple law such as..seat belt laws, we think nothing about. But we eventually wind up being told what we can and cant do in the privacy of our own vehicle.
> Our HUNTING RIGHTS in America hang in the balance and most US citizens dont even see it. They would never do that...really?? If they can force us to pay an illegal income tax and report to the IRS our personal health information...they will eventually do whatever the hell they want to do.


a friend from texas has pretty much told me the same however your still better off than us you can believe that!

it's just when i see people agreeing "yes ban spears an atlatls" or what ever it may be it annoys me because it only hurts everyone else in the long run
i mean first people cry out ban spears an atlatls from there it's dog hunters then bow hunters then firearm hunters (don't laugh that's pretty much how it'd go)

ok kind of different but hopefully you guys will understand me; years ago our government banned most types of firearms an made it extremely hard to even
get a gun legally an licence renewal is a big pain in the butt eg, a few farmers whose land i hunt on have had to wait up to 6 months for there new licence
to come threw mean while there guns are sitting collecting dust 

because they are scared if a cop turns up they could be charged with possession of an unlicenced firearm (they still could be while the guns are inside the house)
this is because bleeding heart morons cried about firearm laws an we don't have an NRA in aus

once you call for one type of hunting tool to be banned it's a slippery slope an hard to put the brakes on once it's started


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ajoh said:


> a friend from texas has pretty much told me the same however your still better off than us you can believe that!
> 
> it's just when i see people agreeing "yes ban spears an atlatls" or what ever it may be it annoys me because it only hurts everyone else in the long run
> i mean first people cry out ban spears an atlatls from there it's dog hunters then bow hunters then firearm hunters (don't laugh that's pretty much how it'd go)
> ...


We welcome you to our humble lily pad in the pacific..... We as hunters need to do several things daily... one is support hunting. Don't bash your fellow hunters in public. I belong to a Game Management Commission and several of the other commissioners really irritate me on occasion including the chairman, but you never never never ever ever, criticize each other in public... for those we are fighting, that would give them no end of pleasure and worse, energy. Say what you have to in private. Learn about the other guy and what they do. Some of your fellow hunters are magnificent shots, or use equipment you don't or hunt in different ways...... learn their ways and remain knowledgeable about them so that if they are attacked and not around to defend themselves, you have enough knowledge to blunt the attacks... be adventurous but be ready to circle the wagons.

Aloha... :beer:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Curve1 said:


> ajo, I love America but we have been gradually losing our freedoms
> Actually, it started right out of the gate when we failed to abolish slavery in every state. Ignoring our Constitution has always brought us nothing but trouble. I believe we've let corrupt politicians violate our Federal Constitution by allowing " unlawful" Amendments be ratified to the Constitution, like the Prohibition Amendment.
> Obama Care, Social Security, Federal Reserve, gun control, 90 % of the regulations in our country are un-consitutional. Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt brought us the Progressive Movement by the end of WW1.
> A simple law such as..seat belt laws, we think nothing about. But we eventually wind up being told what we can and cant do in the privacy of our own vehicle.
> Our HUNTING RIGHTS in America hang in the balance and most US citizens dont even see it. They would never do that...really?? If they can force us to pay an illegal income tax and report to the IRS our personal health information...they will eventually do whatever the hell they want to do.


We're losing our freedom because the people of this country no longer have the courage for freedom.

Freedom is dangerous. You could make the wrong decision and have consequences. The people of this country would rather be pets like my dogs. They don't have to make any decisions, take any responsibility or worry about where their next meal is going to come from. All they need to do is live within the fences that I set up and dictate!

That's us...just pets.


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

MGF said:


> We're losing our freedom because the people of this country no longer have the courage for freedom.
> 
> Freedom is dangerous. You could make the wrong decision and have consequences. The people of this country would rather be pets like my dogs. They don't have to make any decisions, take any responsibility or worry about where their next meal is going to come from. All they need to do is live within the fences that I set up and dictate!
> 
> That's us...just pets.



Yep, I failed to mention that fact. A government powerful enough to give you what you want , is powerful enough to turn on you.
However, we do not elect Supreme Court judges, so we have them legislating from the bench instead of interpreting the Constitution for what it says, not some past ruling or referring back to some unlawful amendment.
Slavery, Jim Crowe, IRS, Social Security, right to vote, Obummer Care, gun control,property taxes, all would never had existed if taking our Constitution n Bill O Rights as they read.
But, as MFG stated , people will vote for what they think they will GET, but in return, they lose something more valuable...their freedom.
WE should have the right to the pursuit of happiness, not a right to the outcome.
Even our Game & Fish departments, even though they do a lot of good, get bogged down with over-regulated laws that do nothing but generate revenue instead of focusing on the fundamentals.
I could care less what another individual hunts with, as long as they're safe about it.

Guess it's just the Libertarian in me coming out:wink:


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's a spear hunting story about an acquaintance who actually killed a deer with one. In the 80s I went to Potter Co., PA to hunt with my brother in law's father at his camp. Over the door was a large spear, about 8' long and made from an iron bar with a forged blade. It must have weighed 25# or more. It seems my host was an iron worker and made the spear and proceeded to hunt deer with it by sitting in a tree stand and dropping the spear onto a passing deer. Well a poor unfortunate spike buck walked by and he dropped the spear and pinned the poor creature to the ground. It screamed, bawled, and struggeled until it died. My host said "I never want to see or hear that again so the spear is now a reminder of a very unpleasant hunt."

Draw your own conclusions.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Curve1 said:


> ajo, I love America but we have been gradually losing our freedoms
> Actually, it started right out of the gate when we failed to abolish slavery in every state. Ignoring our Constitution has always brought us nothing but trouble. I believe we've let corrupt politicians violate our Federal Constitution by allowing " unlawful" Amendments be ratified to the Constitution, like the Prohibition Amendment.
> Obama Care, Social Security, Federal Reserve, gun control, 90 % of the regulations in our country are un-consitutional. Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt brought us the Progressive Movement by the end of WW1.
> A simple law such as..seat belt laws, we think nothing about. But we eventually wind up being told what we can and cant do in the privacy of our own vehicle.
> Our HUNTING RIGHTS in America hang in the balance and most US citizens dont even see it. They would never do that...really?? If they can force us to pay an illegal income tax and report to the IRS our personal health information...they will eventually do whatever the hell they want to do.


Ok, you've got me. What laws affect what we do in a car that hasn't been a good thing? Seatbelts being mandatory is good, banning use if cellphones while driving, good, banning drunk driving, good, not sure what else there is?


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

As an adult, I should have the freedom to decide if I want to wear a set belt. Yes, laws against drunk drivers is a good thing because they are endangering others.
Use of cellphones is no different than turning the dials on a radio, putting on makeup while driving, punchin the keys on a lap-top computer going down the highway, ect.
Talking on a cell phone is only dangerous if the individual cant talk and drive at the same time. We should go ahead and outlaw all the other things I mentioned.
Wearing a motor cycle helment, as an adult I should make that choice. Drunk driving is a clear cut danger to others on the highway, if you notice a lot of laws get passed in the name of safety or security, but actually do nothing more than collect revenue..

I was in the trucking industry for 22 years and the government has screwed it up so bad in the name of safety...80% of the laws in the trucking industry do not effect safety at all.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Curve1 said:


> As an adult, I should have the freedom to decide if I want to wear a set belt. Yes, laws against drunk drivers is a good thing because they are endangering others.
> Use of cellphones is no different than turning the dials on a radio, putting on makeup while driving, punchin the keys on a lap-top computer going down the highway, ect.
> Talking on a cell phone is only dangerous if the individual cant talk and drive at the same time. We should go ahead and outlaw all the other things I mentioned.
> Wearing a motor cycle helment, as an adult I should make that choice. Drunk driving is a clear cut danger to others on the highway, if you notice a lot of laws get passed in the name of safety or security, but actually do nothing more than collect revenue..
> ...


I have to vociferously disagree with you on the cell phone thing and especially texting... it has caused a number of our claims.. fortunately for us, no fatalities, but that is not the case nationwide.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> I have to vociferously disagree with you on the cell phone thing and especially texting... it has caused a number of our claims.. fortunately for us, no fatalities, but that is not the case nationwide.


The problem is that there are too many lousy drivers on the road. They're lousy drivers drunk, sober, with or without a cell phone. The answer is to raise the bar in driver testing. Currently it's a joke. If you put a bunch of lousy drivers behind the wheel of cars, you WILL have lots of death and destruction...which is exactly what we have on the roads.

The new law in Illinois is that it's illegal to hold a cell phone in your hand while you drive but you could hold a shoe or your pud...dumb law and it won't save a single life.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Curve1 said:


> As an adult, I should have the freedom to decide if I want to wear a set belt.


Or sky dive or scuba dive in deep underwater caves or ride bucking horses or whatever. It's not the governments job to protect people from themselves. Hell my job is dangerous. Maybe the government should outlaw it.

How many here remember how the seatbelt laws in the US came into being? It's the perfect story of government ineptness and corruption.

There was a legislator (don't remember her name) who tried to require auto makers to install airbags. At the time that was expensive technology. The auto makers didn't want to do it for fear that it would hurt car sales.

In their own defense, the auto makers formed their own lobby and agreed to back seat belt legislation if they were let off the hook on the airbags. 

The sad end to the story is that many victims of this process (the public) think the seatbelt laws are really a good thing. We got stuck with a legal requirement to wear a seatbelt instead of an airbag but the automakers were right. We didn't want to pay the extra that it would have cost for airbags at the time.

Solution? The government should stay out of such things! ...they're too stupid to be of any help anyway and they're too greedy to really try.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Of course animals have personalities... They have brains, they have intelligence. I've known dogs smarter than some people, and most coyotes and wolves are smarter than most dogs. Pigs supposedly smarter than all of them. Deer, well, yeah, not really all there, but smarter than me when it comes to hide and seek... 

Still, that's no reason not to kill and eat them. It's the nature of life. Doesn't mean we have to be cruel about it. Doesn't mean we have to dress it up as something it isn't either.


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## Shotkizer (Nov 3, 2012)

This has been an interesting thread and the numerous and varying comments helps bring perspective to this type of primitive hunting. 

I personally hate to see weapons of choice regulated. The reality is that they are. Whether it's no deer hunting with a 22 rifle or minimum bow poundages, states regulate how and what we can hunt with. The onus has historically been put on the hunter (us) to prove these weapons are effective in killing game. We have historically been successful at this seeing minimum bow poundages reduced as well as the opening up of bowhunting big game in Africa in the 80s. I think the future of spear and atlatl hunting will depend on how well those hunting with these weapons prove their effectiveness.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Shotkizer said:


> This has been an interesting thread and the numerous and varying comments helps bring perspective to this type of primitive hunting.
> 
> I personally hate to see weapons of choice regulated. The reality is that they are. Whether it's no deer hunting with a 22 rifle or minimum bow poundages, states regulate how and what we can hunt with. The onus has historically been put on the hunter (us) to prove these weapons are effective in killing game. We have historically been successful at this seeing minimum bow poundages reduced as well as the opening up of bowhunting big game in Africa in the 80s. I think the future of spear and atlatl hunting will depend on how well those hunting with these weapons prove their effectiveness.


Probably for as long as people have been hunting the spear has been effective.. the question for you, the hunter, is it the right tool for your game? Pigs and such are an easy game for the atlatl or spear... deer maybe not so much... :grin:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Shotkizer said:


> I think the future of spear and atlatl hunting will depend on how well those hunting with these weapons prove their effectiveness.


More than no doubt, there would be folks who would be quite efficient at it and humane as possible, but the sport as a whole would need to be proved that the method has a humane enough principle use. The killer to the deal would probably come more from the hunting community, as can you imagine a method for taking deer being to where any yahoo who can flatten and sharpen the end of a piece of re-bar is allowed to chunk it at a deer?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Sanford said:


> More than no doubt, there would be folks who would be quite efficient at it and humane as possible, but the sport as a whole would need to be proved that the method has a humane enough principle use. The killer to the deal would probably come more from the hunting community, as can you imagine a method for taking deer being to where any yahoo who can flatten and sharpen the end of a piece of re-bar is allowed to chunk it at a deer?


Judging are we..... ???? :laugh:


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

rattus58 said:


> Judging are we..... ???? :laugh:



funny isn't it.........really it doesn't matter what type of hunting people do because there are people that are good an not so good with all hunting tools
from guns to spears/atlatls an everything in between..

i've seen native australians (aboriginals) make cleaner kills with a spear/atlatl than some guys with guns have (note only native australians can legally use spears an atlatls)

focusing on one or two types of hunting tools doesn't help anyone but the bleeding heart, tree hugging, vegetarian, pains in the a... that want all hunting stopped
or as many laws as they can get in place to make things as hard as possible on all of us the argument here re; spears an atlatls not making clean kills is just wrong
especially when it doesn't just happen with spears an atlatls


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ajoh said:


> funny isn't it.........really it doesn't matter what type of hunting people do because there are people that are good an not so good with all hunting tools
> from guns to spears/atlatls an everything in between..
> 
> i've seen native australians (aboriginals) make cleaner kills with a spear/atlatl than some guys with guns have (note only native australians can legally use spears an atlatls)
> ...


And here you thought only them wild pigs ate their young..... :grin: Dingo's probably have more spirit of family... :laugh:


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

rattus58 said:


> And here you thought only them wild pigs ate their young..... :grin: Dingo's probably have more spirit of family... :laugh:


dingo's aren't a problem bud it's X-breeds of dogs an dingo's that are a serious threat...... 



by the way that "dingo ate my baby" thing is old plus it wasn't my family therefore i really don't care


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## stuie88 (Nov 14, 2013)

Whereabouts are you from ajoh? We have heaps of public land hunting in Victoria, eastern Victoria has loads of state parks that are open to hunting, and some of the national parks are open for some of the deer season. It isn't that hard to get a firearms licence either. Only requires lawful reason and a test, plus the permit to acquire and storage compliance (as well as no criminal convictions). Are you up north or out west? Must be harder up there?


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

stuie88 said:


> Whereabouts are you from ajoh? We have heaps of public land hunting in Victoria, eastern Victoria has loads of state parks that are open to hunting, and some of the national parks are open for some of the deer season. It isn't that hard to get a firearms licence either. Only requires lawful reason and a test, plus the permit to acquire and storage compliance (as well as no criminal convictions). Are you up north or out west? Must be harder up there?



queensland bud, only hunting we can do is on private land like farms no public land hunting what so ever!
really the only way of getting a firearm licence is if your father/ grand father has the licences otherwise it's just to damn hard
to get (way to much red tape)

in some ways it doesn't bother me but it does bother me in others (confusing i know) owning a bow is bad enough with these damn cops
i practice on a near by farm 4 times some bleeding heart has called the cops "worried" i'll shoot the cattle even though they are normally
over 300meters+ behind me!! each time the old farmer comes over an tells the cops where to get off (politest way i can put it) "he loves doing that by the way" :lol:

all in all australia sux (well the people an government does)


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ajoh said:


> dingo's aren't a problem bud it's X-breeds of dogs an dingo's that are a serious threat......
> 
> 
> 
> by the way that "dingo ate my baby" thing is old plus it wasn't my family therefore i really don't care


i think you missed my point..... Boars eat their young. Archers here, as you can see, are in effect eating their young.... a Dingo, on the other hand doesn't.... and so has a more cohesive "family" culture than archers do.... was my point.... but then the X-breed analogy to that is also fitting... ask these guys about crossbows in an archery season.... hahahaha... :laugh:


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## stuie88 (Nov 14, 2013)

ajoh said:


> all in all australia sux (well the people an government does)


That's weird, got friends up there who never mentioned it. One of them moved up there on a mines project and got his q'land licence in place of the Vic licence. Didn't seem like it was that difficult.
As far as property to hunt, one station up there probably equals more land than all the properties and public land I have access to down here! Hard to get access for the first, once you get it they wind up bringing up other properties usually.
Have to agree to disagree


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

stuie88 said:


> That's weird, got friends up there who never mentioned it. One of them moved up there on a mines project and got his q'land licence in place of the Vic licence. Didn't seem like it was that difficult.
> As far as property to hunt, one station up there probably equals more land than all the properties and public land I have access to down here! Hard to get access for the first, once you get it they wind up bringing up other properties usually.
> Have to agree to disagree



key part "already had vic licence" .......as i've stated i know of farmers that are made to wait for renewals of up to 3-6 months 

it's the same with everything though one person will have no issues the next person will have nothing but issues it's just not worth the headaches
i know one farmer that has thrown in the towel sold his guns an didn't bother renewing his licence the system is screwed

note NONE of them have criminal records


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## stuie88 (Nov 14, 2013)

ajoh said:


> key part "already had vic licence" .......as i've stated i know of farmers that are made to wait for renewals of up to 3-6 months
> 
> it's the same with everything though one person will have no issues the next person will have nothing but issues it's just not worth the headaches
> i know one farmer that has thrown in the towel sold his guns an didn't bother renewing his licence the system is screwed
> ...


That sucks man, can't believe you get messed around like that. 
You guys have some good hunting up there though, chital, reds as well as the scrubbers and some of the biggest pigs getting around. Shame it's so hard to get into them!


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## ajoh (Jun 26, 2013)

stuie88 said:


> That sucks man, can't believe you get messed around like that.
> You guys have some good hunting up there though, chital, reds as well as the scrubbers and some of the biggest pigs getting around. Shame it's so hard to get into them!



the farmers for the most part love having bow hunters/ whatever form of hunting as long as you respect the land an the farmers wishes
as it keeps the ferals down (cats, dogs, goats, pigs, scrubbers "cattle gone feral", asiatic water buffalo, rabbits/hares, deer, sheep etc) 
an the farmers can do the things they need to do.

it's not that it's hard to hunt it's the fact that we get messed around by the qld government. public land should be open to hunters
an we should be able to get licences (for guns) easier an use what ever we are skilled enough to use bows, crossbows (100% illegal in qld)
atlatls/spears, guns, dogs (hunting dogs) it'd save millions an millions our government waste in 1080 use http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/75140/IPA-1080-PA5.pdf 

much of this link is so wrong it's not even funny however it's what our government uses as "pest control"


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