# NAP Spitfires vs. Thunderheads - Help



## unsingle (Feb 2, 2005)

I need some help. I have been fighting this problem for over 2 years now. When I shoot field points and NAP spitfires, I group an inch at 20 yards. As soon as I screw on a NAP thunderhead, the groups open to three inches at 20 yards, and get worse as distance increases. There is no consistency with the larger group. It just gets larger in all directions. I can put a field point back on, and I’m back to one inch groups. I cannot tune the bow to the broadheads because the group just gets larger. I really believe that fixed broadheads are fool proof, and would like to be comfortable shooting them. 

I shoot a Mathews LX set at 65 lbs. My arrows are Gold Tip Pro Hunters, 5575, and 27 ½ inches in length. Broadhead weight is 125 grains. Fletching is Flex Fletch 4 inch with as much right helical as I can get on them. Rest is Rip Cord drop a way, and I shoot a release.

Any suggestions would really be appreciated. I will try anything at this point.


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## DennyG (Jul 26, 2004)

*Thunder heads*

You might have better luck with 100gr. heads. Also are your flething true helical, or straight offset? One thing I do with fixed blade heads is line up the blades with the fletching when I glue in the inserts. Most claim it makes no differance but I want all my arrows the same. Good luck, stick with it, some fixed blade heads can be tricky to tune.
DennyG


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## Archerysolution (Aug 9, 2004)

*Paper tune*

Have you paper tuned your bow?I shoot NAP thunderhead 125's and have no problems if my bow is tuned well.I shoot a Bowtech VFT extreme and a Liberty with beaman 340 and 125 thunderheads with a 4 inch NAP quick spin.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Mechanicals for sure!*

An LX #65 will drive any arrow through a deer's side.Spitfires and other mechanicals work great with your set-up on deer.Fixed blades are not fool proof if you miss.And- I'd rather have a larger cutting mechanical on a marginal hit.The thing I don't like about the Spitfire is the tip is not far enough forward from the blades-this IMO can cause a deflection on angled shots.


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

Next time you are in the car do this simple test for me. Open the window and stick your hand out. (the car must be moving down the road). What happens when you flatten you hand like a paddle and twist it around. It acts like a wing and pushes your hand wildly. Now make a ball with your fist and point it into the wind. It pushes through the wind with much less drag or directional pushing. Now lets put this test into archer terms. The broadhead on the tip of your arrow acts just like your flat paddle palm, grabbing and pulling at the air going over them trying to push the arrow in the direction of least resistance. If you are not tuned for perfect arrow flight or have form flaws with you release or even have a broadhead off centerline, the arrow will plane. The arrow that is tipped with the field point or the mechincal broad head has no wings there for none or very little planing. You can get away with a lessor tuned set up or flawed form and not see radical differances. This alone is why I choose to shoot mechanical broadheads. I have shot over 25 deer with the 75 grain Rocket mini-blasters. Of all them, only 2 or 3 have not been complete pass through shots. They have a larger cutting diameter and hit where you aim. I'm shooting a 10 year old Browning Maxim at 60# with a wopping 245 fps 400 grain arrow. Not the most power in the world, but plenty to drop these large Illinois whitetails. I've dropped more than one over 300 lbs. with this set up. A well placed shot is more deadly than a bad shot with a lot of punch. I vote for the mechanical all the way.


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## unsingle (Feb 2, 2005)

Someone asked if I had paper tuned my bow. It has been some time since I did, so I went out and paper tuned it. It still looks good. 

I suspect that it is probably poor shooting form on my part. I've noticed that I have to work much harder to get the broadheads to shoot well. If I get a little tired, things really start to open up. 

I have had really good luck with my spitfires, killing four deer with them last year. But I want to hunt deer out of my DB blind this year, and I am affraid to shoot thru the netting with the spitfires.


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## texas south paw (Apr 12, 2005)

Are you spinning your broadheads to make sure they are straight?


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## unsingle (Feb 2, 2005)

Yes, I spin them. 

Do you think a stiffer arrow would make any difference?


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## orionje (Jul 1, 2004)

*Sonic Heads*

Hi
Try these new Sonic Heads they shoot like field points 
http://www.americanbroadhead.com/
Turkeydude


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

Unsingle.....you are using two quality heads but they are very different and you have to think this through before using each.


I have many kills with the Spitfire and absolutely love these heads, very strong, very sharp and effective.
The Thunderheads are also very good broadheads, I have a few kills with these heads as well. They have to be setup carefully. The small o-ring is the key to tuning these heads....when you screw them into your shafts, MAKE SURE you only screw them into the shaft until you feel resistance. If you over torque these, the o-ring will start bulging out one side of the shaft and this will make it impossible to tune. Very important to pay serious attention to this.

If everything else is the same and you don't put any torque into the bow yourself, these heads should group together.

Good luck.

Jon


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## unsingle (Feb 2, 2005)

*Update*

After trying to get my thunderheads to shoot where I want for over two years, I decided to take Turkeydude’s advice and try some Sonic 125 grain broadheads. I just got back from the range and I am really pleased. They do in fact shoot exactly to the same point of impact as my field points and spitfires. Penetration is about 4 inches deeper than the thunderheads, but I would expect that since they are a smaller diameter head. They appear to be well constructed, and I will use them this fall for deer. It is hard to explain, but they are just easier to shoot accurately than my thunderheads. Probably due to my shooting form.

I did have the nut that holds the blades back off, and lost one of the blades in my target. Turkeydude and other Sonic users – how do you tighten the nut securely without getting cut?

Thanks


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## John Sullivan (Jun 14, 2005)

Your broadheads are not truly tuned. You just screwed them on. Get you a torch....I use a burnzomatic or something like that. anyway, screw your broadhead down rather snug, at that point place your arrow shaft, right behind the broadhead where the insert is glued in, over the fire of the torch. Using your thumb, index finger, and middle finger hold the broadhead by the ferrule between the blades and apply pressure as if you were tightening the broadhead, since you have already tightened the broadhead it shouldn't do much, once placed over the torch's fire the glue on the inside will break free and allow you to turn broadhead and insert freely go ahead and keep it over the fire for a couple of seconds more then remove it from the fire. Rotate the arrow in your hand while holding the broadhead/insert tightly with your other hand. This will distribute the glue inside the shaft uniformly as well as seat the insert firmly and evenly inside the shaft. Now, take and lay your arrow down cock feather up, this is to be done while the broadhead/insert are still able to be turned, Your two other feathers/vanes (non cock feather) will be laid flat down on the table spin the broadhead around to where the 2 blades are laid evenly on the table matching the 2 feathers/vanes on the other end. Your cock feather should be facing straight up as well as your third blade on the broadhead. This will ensure proper alignment of the blades with the feathers/vanes. Now, there is more to a truly tuned broadhead than simply spinning it on your hand, or table top. an easy way to tell as well as inexpensive is to get you an 18" lengty of 2x4 and towards each end nail two 16 penny nails at 45 degree angles forming an X with the nails. They will need to be touching or very very close to touching. This will give you something to lay your arrow in to spin it true. Lay your arrow down in the X's you made with the nails and you can spin the arrow true. Place the 2x4 beside some object that is rather stationary. now move everything around until the tip of your broadhead is touching the stationary object while still in the device you just made. If your broadhead is perfectly tuned you can spin it while in the device you just made and where the tip of the broadhead touches the stationary object will not change at all when the arrow is spun. I know this sounds like a lot, but for a TRULY tuned broadhead this is one of the best ways possible. and your arrows WILL shoot the same as your field points. I have been doing this stuff for a LONG LONG time and I personally have never had one shoot any different than the field points. You will need to do this to every arrow in your quiver. Some will line up first time, some won't. It takes time...but it will be worth it. You may get some that just simply won't line up, in that case, put that broadhead on another arrow and eventually it will line up. For some unknown reason some broadheads/inserts/arrow combinations just don't want to match up, and you will have to play musical broadheads until they do.


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## DennyG (Jul 26, 2004)

*Torch*

I DO NOT recomend useing a torch on carbon arrows!
 DennyG


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## ktrazz (Apr 24, 2005)

Do not use the torch on Carbons.

I always spin the insert when installing them during the build process. Why wait until later?


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## John Sullivan (Jun 14, 2005)

AHHHHHHH yes, he is shooting carbons...5575's. My reference was to aluminums. I bet if you switch to aluminum your problem will be solved. :shade:


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Try increasing and decreasing the peak weight by 3#'s (or 1 full turn) and see if the broadheads group better. If they do after either change then you have a slight spine issue. You could just leave it alone, 3#'s is only about 3fps loss/gain or you could change the point weight, arrow length, or a combination of the above.
As other have said it is paramount that your broadheads are perfectly aligned with the shaft, no wobble at all. If you want to line the blades up with the vanes it won't hurt a thing. (How do you align a 4 blade with the 3 vanes?)
The nocks must also be perfectly straight and have the same rotation/orientation to the vanes.
The 2X4 with the nails is an excellent way to check for broadhead alignment. Of course it will also show the straigtness (?) of your shaft.
I think that this is truly the BIG shortcoming of carbon shafts...the inabilty..or difficulty of rotating the insert to align the point without taking the risk of damaging the shaft with excessive heat.


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## stehawk (Aug 28, 2004)

unsingle said:


> I need some help. I have been fighting this problem for over 2 years now. When I shoot field points and NAP spitfires, I group an inch at 20 yards. As soon as I screw on a NAP thunderhead, the groups open to three inches at 20 yards, and get worse as distance increases. There is no consistency with the larger group. It just gets larger in all directions. I can put a field point back on, and I’m back to one inch groups. I cannot tune the bow to the broadheads because the group just gets larger. I really believe that fixed broadheads are fool proof, and would like to be comfortable shooting them.
> 
> I shoot a Mathews LX set at 65 lbs. My arrows are Gold Tip Pro Hunters, 5575, and 27 ½ inches in length. Broadhead weight is 125 grains. Fletching is Flex Fletch 4 inch with as much right helical as I can get on them. Rest is Rip Cord drop a way, and I shoot a release.
> 
> Any suggestions would really be appreciated. I will try anything at this point.




First, you'll probably never get fixed blade broadheads to fly exactly like field points. The best thing to do is decide whether you're going to use fixed blades or not. If you are then tune your bow completely with nothing but broadheads and dont worry about shooting field points. Practice and do all your shooting with broadheads and forget about it.  IF you want to shoot all kinds of broadheads and field points and just don't want to give up on it---- good luck.


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