# Some here crack me up...



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Apparently there's been some whining about the recent content of this forum... For those that feel this way here's a challenge for you. Start something interesting here that you deem worthy instead of lurking in the shadows complaining. After all this is supposed to be archers helping archers... isn't it?


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

EPLC said:


> Apparently there's been some whining about the recent content of this forum... For those that feel this way here's a challenge for you. Start something interesting here that you deem worthy instead of lurking in the shadows complaining. After all this is supposed to be archers helping archers... isn't it?


Tragically (as you found out on one of your threads), being attacked for giving your views that don't agree with some stop people posting. Debate turns into personal attacks and the best threads turn into a pissing match.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The forum was started for a good reason, but it just never developed like most thought it would or wanted.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> The forum was started for a good reason, but it just never developed like most thought it would or wanted.


Better than lots of others on AT Sonny.


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## jacobh (Jun 7, 2009)

Exactly right.... Many on here feel it's their way or it's the wrong way. It's truly a shame. Years back the sight was great for people helping each other now it's nothing but argueing


QUOTE=duc;1095094218]Tragically (as you found out on one of your threads), being attacked for giving your views that don't agree with some stop people posting. Debate turns into personal attacks and the best threads turn into a pissing match.[/QUOTE]


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

EPLC said:


> Apparently there's been some whining about the recent content of this forum... For those that feel this way here's a challenge for you. Start something interesting here that you deem worthy instead of lurking in the shadows complaining. After all this is supposed to be archers helping archers... isn't it?


I agree with you. One thing that might help is to merge the target equipment sub-forum back into the main target forum. I thought that it was a good idea when they were first split, but it seems like the Intermediate-advanced Competition Archery (IACA) forum lost something. Having been a close follower of the IACA since it was begun, it seems like the forum activity has declined since the split. IMO, equipment is an integral part of target archery and it seems to confuse people with questions that may or may not include equipment. It will make a little less work for Mahly too. 

I would be very sad to lose the IACA forum due to lack of interest.

Allen


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## RobRiguez (Feb 24, 2015)

I wouldnt say its ONLY arguing. I frequent MANY forums and AT is nowhere near as bad as others. Its almost a shining example even with all the "issues" we have. 

Meh, dont take anything personal and keep it moving. Love the helpful people here.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been surprised at how much this area has dropped off and it really went down when the equipment split happened. To me a lot of the equipment issues lead into discussions that go right back to the shooter and his execution of the shot anyway. So many people lean to the side of equipment changes or tweaks as their answer to their shooting problems and then when we point out the shooter side of the story that is where the good changes are seen and made. 

All of us believe in our approach 100% or we wouldn't be doing it the way we do it so there is always going to be some heated discussions but we have to have them. That is when we have a chance to actually learn something new, I know that over the years I have had to eat crow many times when the light finally came on in my little head and I could finally see the truth.

Hopefully we can get equipment back over here and things can begin to improve, I know it will take a while but we gotta start somewhere.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

From the beginning, it was asked to keep gear and tuning issues out of this group.
Originally, they went to Gen pop. Now they go to target gear and tuning.
I am open to the idea of merging the 2 (honestly, I probably have to move 60% of new threads from here to there right now), but would need a LOT more input from everyone if this is desired or not.
There are good arguments either way. I need to KNOW this is the will of the group.

As for complaining; this group, by definition is of experienced archers. We have all found things that work for us, and things that don't. Unfortunately, those thing are seemingly not universal. Then we get people who have succeeded with technique that worked for them, that failed others.
Not many like to believe "their way" is not THE way for everyone. A debate starts (where we historically got some great input), but eventually turns into a battle of opposing beliefs. This happens because we all have "proof" our way works. Heck, sometimes it isn't anything more than different people using the same words differently.
People start fighting, and those with a thin skin go away on their own, others take it too far, and get removed.
Looking at some of the other forums, I see more bickering than we allow here. This is by design for the afore mentioned reasons.
Honestly, if people would spend as much effort explaining why they are right instead of why the other guy is wrong, we would do better.

If there are others that complain (off of this forum), that is their prerogative. 
They may be very knowledgeable about what works for them and others they work with, or they may be full of bologna, and don't like it when they can't dominate a discussion, or people don't buy their crap.
If they wish to complain everywhere but here, I would suggest they look in the mirror to find the cause of the problem.
Garbage in = garbage out.

As always, I am open to suggestion. This is OUR forum, not mine. The only difference is I get more buttons to keep threads on topic, and control unacceptable behavior. 


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

I was going to bring this up a couple weeks ago. I would love the equipment section merged back with this one.


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## catcherarcher (Sep 23, 2014)

I would like to see equipment merged back.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The separation of or defining of gear and especially tuning is...of question, like where does it really belong? Torque Tuning is still here and not in Gear and Tuning. Same with the Torque Indicator. Flip a coin for merge or not merge.....


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Back to the top for more input


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

I favor a separate gear sub-forum.

As long as folks understand the difference between technique and hardware, I'm fine.

Noobs are still going to need coaching on this and that may help them on their way, I get that, it may even spur more conversation.

We knew going in that this wasn't going to be "target shooting central" and there will be times of low activity.

Also, it is hunting season so there may be a few out there doing real time 3D shooting.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like the equipment stuff being here because so many times when I am working with a person or just having a discussion about equipment it turns into a execution or aiming discussion where the person asking the question didn't realize it wasn't the equipment that was the problem. 

Secondly many of our execution methods are directly related to equipment choices and equipment setup so allowing them to be together to me is a good thing.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The other thing to consider about the start of this forum is that it was the stomping ground for at least two guys who were tough to be around in a forum, they are no longer here. Of course it leaves a bad taste but hopefully over time things can and will get going again.

Keep in mind that to me our discussions usually start up with a new shooter that wants help and then we get to present our methods and our way of presenting them to the new guy and then the little discussions are able to happen. This gives us the ability to discuss stuff between each other and it gives the new shooter the ability to see different methods to aim or fire a release or shooting form etc.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Intermediate and Advanced. To me this means you know more then just which way to nock an arrow. You should already know all there is about equipment and how to use it. At this level you should already know how to "tune" and adjust. At this level we should be asking what we do about small "issues" like trying to squeeze a few more point from our game. "Talk" about how we train our brain and body to get that little bit more. We should be "talking" about why we think things work for us and how we think what we do may work for others. We should be throwing about ideas that may give us all just that little bit more. In a nutshell this shouldn't be an equipment forum, a coaching forum or a "tuning" forum. It shouldn't be about 'I busted my shoulder, what should I do?" There's a Couches Corner forum for this. It should be about SMALL problems we may be having with our game, mental and physical. It shouldn't be a beginners nor an elitist forum. And moderated as such.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> Intermediate and Advanced. To me this means you know more then just which way to nock an arrow. You should already know all there is about equipment and how to use it. At this level you should already know how to "tune" and adjust. At this level we should be asking what we do about small "issues" like trying to squeeze a few more point from our game. "Talk" about how we train our brain and body to get that little bit more. We should be "talking" about why we think things work for us and how we think what we do may work for others. We should be throwing about ideas that may give us all just that little bit more. In a nutshell this shouldn't be an equipment forum, a coaching forum or a "tuning" forum. It shouldn't be about 'I busted my shoulder, what should I do?" There's a Couches Corner forum for this. It should be about SMALL problems we may be having with our game, mental and physical. It shouldn't be a beginners nor an elitist forum. And moderated as such.


So much that I don't agree with... And can someone point out a real coach in Coaches' Corner?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

duc said:


> In a nutshell this shouldn't be an equipment forum, a coaching forum...It should be about SMALL problems we may be having with our game, mental and physical.


Seems contradictory to me.



> Back to the top for more input


If its a popular vote, I vote merge.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> So much that I don't agree with... And can someone point out a real coach in Coaches' Corner?


Can someone point out one here that hasn't left?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'm in favor of merging for a number of reasons, and I also agree with the OP's original point. Some here have been very intolerant of topics (and people) they don't feel are worthy of this sub-forum, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that forum participation has declined. By definition, it's "intermediate" AND "advanced", not just "advanced". I would further point out despite multiple attempts, there is still no consensus as to the precise criteria that defines either (nor should there be, IMO)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> Can someone point out one here that hasn't left?


EPLC, Padgett, me, aread, Mahly 
.
.
Not once in Coaches' Corner have I seen credentials of any kind.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> I'm in favor of merging for a number of reasons, and I also agree with the OP's original point. Some here have been very intolerant of topics (and people) they don't feel are worthy of this sub-forum, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that forum participation has declined. By definition, it's "intermediate" AND "advanced", not just "advanced". I would further point out despite multiple attempts, there is still no consensus as to the precise criteria that defines either (nor should there be, IMO)


It's difficult to be judge, jury and executioner. The calibre of the question is a good indication of someone's competency. This section shouldn't be all thing to all people. A mod (no disrespect intended to Mahly) should be strong enough to vet what he feels is a newbie question and redirect it to another forum. Intermediate and Advanced is not that hard to determine really.
The target user group was created here by some because of what this place has become. Not because they feel better than anyone here but because it is THE genuine Intermediate and Advanced group.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> It's difficult to be judge, jury and executioner. The calibre of the question is a good indication of someone's competency. This section shouldn't be all thing to all people. A mod (no disrespect intended to Mahly) should be strong enough to vet what he feels is a newbie question and redirect it to another forum. Intermediate and Advanced is not that hard to determine really.


This forum would serve its purpose a lot better if it was left to the actual moderators rather than having multiple wannabe mods that frankly aren't very personable trying to "help"



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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Trust me, many a post has been moved to Gen pop, and many moved to Target gear/tuning.

The way I see it (or at least how I interpret what we wanted here) is that I have zero issue discussing HOW we use something or why we use it.
Why do some here prefer a hinge vs. a trigger? Valid discussion.
Why some prefer brand X over brand Y? Not so much.

So there IS room for some gear talk... as long as it gets to be technique specific, and not brand worship or bashing.

Some have said in the past to keep it strictly about the mental game. That would probably equal half a dozen posts a year.

My PERSONAL opinion (meaning my vote carries no more or less weight than anyone else):

Mental game, technique, set up, and physical issues all have a part (this is not an all inclusive list).

Brand names, fanboy, bashing, what "______" should I buy, how to tune a bow, how's my form (unless addressing a very specific issue) etc. really don't belong here.

Sometimes technique or set up (not tuning) are more gear driven. Shooting in the wind would be a good example.
There, your set up has a very large impact, and you can make changes to it that can help.
I don't care what brand of rest/stabs/release you use, but if you can't shoot a blade, hinge and 36" stabs in the wind well, what have you found to help your shooting?

We shoot with gear, it needs to be part of our discussions. We don't all shoot the exact same gear, why you shoot the brands you shoot is not really relevant, save having a TRUELY unique feature.

For those for or against merging with the gear forum.
Scroll through a few pages of the topics there and see how many you think would be useful to intermediate and advanced shooters (who most likely have their minds set on their gear).
There is no right or wrong answer, just see if that is what you really do or do not want.






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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Mahly said:


> Trust me, many a post has been moved to Gen pop, and many moved to Target gear/tuning.
> 
> The way I see it (or at least how I interpret what we wanted here) is that I have zero issue discussing HOW we use something or why we use it.
> Why do some here prefer a hinge vs. a trigger? Valid discussion.
> ...


What can I say. EVERYTHING you has said is what the forum should be. But it comes across as very different.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> This forum would serve its purpose a lot better if it was left to the actual moderators rather than having multiple wannabe mods that frankly aren't very personable trying to "help"
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


Should I be taking that this may be directed at me?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

There are obviously not enough topics to divide up between I-A, Gear, and the target group. Target group can run it however they want.....give the public area back to the public users.

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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> Should I be taking that this may be directed at me?


No....my comment was a general observation....not directed at anyone in particular. I expect those who fit the description know who they are, as do others that frequent this forum.

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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I also would like to see "Equipment issues" for target archery merged back in the mix. Some answers I received either from some of my questions and even some from those of others I have been able to use and improve my archery knowledge and scores have improved. I also believe Mahly could and should still monitor and move some of the posts if he feels they are not of a worthy discussion in this forum or would be better addressed in another forum. "Which is better, carbon or aluminum" or something of that nature where a direct question and not asking a opinion question. Opinion's are like body odors, we all have them but some are stronger then others. This forum like any others we should all realize when we ask a question we will get different answers. We should read through them all and if something works fine, if not don't use it and move on. Most of all, don't all bent out of shape if others disagree with your opinion.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

With all due respect, Intermediate and Advanced archers shouldn't be having equipment issues or should already know how to deal with them. It then opens the door to turn the place into a beginner forum (again?). I understand people wanting this forum to be all things to all people but the line has to be drawn to keep it to as the title suggests, Intermediate and Advanced. Mahly's last post was spot on. When I employ a tradesman, I shouldn't have to tell them how to hold a hammer and how use it, I expect him/her to already know this.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

So I guess if asking say about using a hinge or how to set up one might be an equipment issue and should not be allowed? Heck, how about practice routines, different distances or even blank baling, blind baling. With all due respect, I believe some equipment issue questions and concerns could help move someone up who has the desire to be an "Intermediate or Advanced" shooter. If I see a post I think is one I'm not interested in, I won't read it, simple as that. I still think Mahly should have total discretion on what to allow and what to move.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I really hate the way this may come across. At this level YOU SHOULD know everything about a hinge and how to shoot it. Practice and training routine should be pretty much the same for beginners an and top notch archers and is a great topic for all. Coaching for beginners and top archers is VERY different. The top end shooters need coaches to keep them in line, mostly mentally. This area is also a good topic at this level. 
I'll say it again. At this level you should know all the is to know about HOW TO USE ARCHERY EQUIPMENT AND SET UP A BOW. You should already have faith with what you shoot. If you don't or can't then by definition you aren't an Intermediate or Advanced archer. At this level nearly everything is mental. If there is to be an equipment discussion keep it to what you think of it and not how to use it or review it. 
PLEASE MY FIRST SENTENCE AGAIN PLEASE.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

If one is an advanced archer why would they come here in the first place? If one needs work on their mental game at an advanced level, this ain't the place.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

duc said:


> I really hate the way this may come across. At this level YOU SHOULD know everything about a hinge and how to shoot it. Practice and training routine should be pretty much the same for beginners an and top notch archers and is a great topic for all. Coaching for beginners and top archers is VERY different. The top end shooters need coaches to keep them in line, mostly mentally. This area is also a good topic at this level.
> I'll say it again. At this level you should know all the is to know about HOW TO USE ARCHERY EQUIPMENT AND SET UP A BOW. You should already have faith with what you shoot. If you don't or can't then by definition you aren't an Intermediate or Advanced archer. At this level nearly everything is mental. If there is to be an equipment discussion keep it to what you think of it and not how to use it or review it.
> PLEASE MY FIRST SENTENCE AGAIN PLEASE.


I read it again Duc and please forgive me but there are plenty of "Intermediate" archers out there that perhaps use a thumb release or a caliper and possibly don't have easy access to a level of coach that are capable to teach the hinge. We can agree to disagree on what level of help as far as topics/questions should or should not be asked on here. I believe Mahly had done a pretty good job as far as moving basic questions to forums where they belong.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Merge them.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> I really hate the way this may come across. At this level YOU SHOULD know everything about a hinge and how to shoot it. Practice and training routine should be pretty much the same for beginners an and top notch archers and is a great topic for all. Coaching for beginners and top archers is VERY different. The top end shooters need coaches to keep them in line, mostly mentally. This area is also a good topic at this level.
> I'll say it again. At this level you should know all the is to know about HOW TO USE ARCHERY EQUIPMENT AND SET UP A BOW. You should already have faith with what you shoot. If you don't or can't then by definition you aren't an Intermediate or Advanced archer. At this level nearly everything is mental. If there is to be an equipment discussion keep it to what you think of it and not how to use it or review it.
> PLEASE MY FIRST SENTENCE AGAIN PLEASE.


I've got the solution. Let's see how this works; "Everyone that doesn't shoot at the national, get out."


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

subconsciously said:


> If one is an advanced archer why would they come here in the first place? If one needs work on their mental game at an advanced level, this ain't the place.


For the same reasons you come here. To share and help with ideas.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> I've got the solution. Let's see how this works; "Everyone that doesn't shoot at the national, get out."


Nope. Many, many good shooters who have stopped shooting at this level for whatever reason, physical injuries, better thing to in there life than shoot comps, retired etc. This may all be related to you Sonny. You may not shoot at a national level, have injuries and slowed down. Doesn't mean that you weren't/aren't a very competent archer with many things to give.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> With all due respect, Intermediate and Advanced archers shouldn't be having equipment issues or should already know how to deal with them. It then opens the door to turn the place into a beginner forum (again?).


There are quite a few very good professional archers that aren't bow mechanics, and there are at lot of very smart people that have advanced understanding technical aspects of archery that aren't necessarily top level shooters. 



duc said:


> I understand people wanting this forum to be all things to all people but the line has to be drawn to keep it to as the title suggests, Intermediate and Advanced.


This forum is for people interested in target archery, no one that I'm aware of has suggested it's supposed to be all things to all people. According to Merriam-Webster, "Intermediate" is anything between beginner and advanced. IMO, one of the biggest problem with this forum is that several here don't want to be bothered by "intermediate" level topics... which is ironic since some of them are less accomplished than they portray themselves to be.



duc said:


> When I employ a tradesman, I shouldn't have to tell them how to hold a hammer and how use it, I expect him/her to already know this.


Well that's perfect example of exaggerating the problem. No, this forum isn't the appropriate place for people that don't know which part of the bow is the grip, but neither do those questions occur here, so it's a non-issue. But this IS the appropriate place for those who want to learn or discuss how grip may affect performance.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

So we're back to Square #1...

Nicely put, nestly.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> There are quite a few very good professional archers that aren't bow mechanics, and there are at lot of very smart people that have advanced understanding technical aspects of archery that aren't necessarily top level shooters.
> 
> 
> This forum is for people interested in target archery, no one that I'm aware of has suggested it's supposed to be all things to all people. According to Merriam-Webster, "Intermediate" is anything between beginner and advanced. IMO, one of the biggest problem with this forum is that several here don't want to be bothered by "intermediate" level topics... which is ironic since some of them are less accomplished than they portray themselves to be.
> ...


Really. You want to make it into a beginners forum. And as an Intermediate and Advanced archer you don't know know how grip affect things (not you nestly).


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> So we're back to Square #1...
> 
> Nicely put, nestly.


So why even bother with the title Intermediate and Advanced. Can this section and let it go to General, Tuning, or Coaches Corner.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> So why even bother with the title Intermediate and Advanced. Can this section and let it go to General, Tuning, or Coaches Corner.


I suggested dropping I/A long ago. For a while I thought the name should have been changed to the Vegas Target club...or the Indoor League club.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> Really. You want to make it into a beginners forum. And as an Intermediate and Advanced archer you don't know know how grip affect things (not you nestly).


Your definition of "beginner" is obviously skewed. Intermediate falls between beginner and advanced, and "most" topics in this forum have been, and can reasonably be expected to fall in that range.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

This sub forum, while started with good intentions, has definitely become a failure. Take this thread for instance. This is the only type of conversation that thrives in this sub forum. There's no target archery talked about here. It's an overrated measuring contest. 

Someone should do now, what should have been done to begin with, make it a target archery sub forum. That simple. Two words on the forum. 

Target Archery

Problem solved. Then you can come in here and talk about target archery and have some good discussions. 

If you're in the group that wants to argue and maintain this I/A title, go start your own group. Or maintain the one you have and occupy it solely. 

The moment someone was persuaded to place the I/A title along with target archery, this was a doomed venture. But that's okay, live and learn. Now we just need someone to take the next step and correct it. Then we have a good sub forum again. And moderate with zero tolerance for the bullying b.s. this place has lived on since its inception.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

So it was doomed from the start, but if we change the content to anything to do with target archery, then we will have a good sub forum again?

For those who care, this forum is the most heavily moderated forum on AT... save for the classified section (which isn't a discussion forum).
More strict moderating would pretty much eliminate open discussion.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> So it was doomed from the start, but if we change the content to anything to do with target archery, then we will have a good sub forum again?


No guarantee, but it would be a step in the right direction, IMO. (providing that those who disagree with a more broad scope of subject matter don't continue to run people off)

For the record, I don't have a problem with the existing forum name, but clearly it's not interpreted the same by everyone. Sometimes I wonder if the "Intermediate" part doesn't show up for some people, as they seem to get annoyed at any topic that isn't "Advanced", (which BTW is highly subjective word on it's own)


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Mahly said:


> So it was doomed from the start, but if we change the content to anything to do with target archery, then we will have a good sub forum again?
> 
> For those who care, this forum is the most heavily moderated forum on AT... save for the classified section (which isn't a discussion forum).
> More strict moderating would pretty much eliminate open discussion.
> ...





nestly said:


> No guarantee, but it would be a step in the right direction, IMO. (providing that those who disagree with a more broad scope of subject matter don't continue to run people off)
> 
> For the record, I don't have a problem with the existing forum name, but clearly it's not interpreted the same by everyone. Sometimes I wonder if the "Intermediate" part doesn't show up for some people, as they seem to get annoyed at any topic that isn't "Advanced", (which BTW is highly subjective word on it's own)


I'm in agreeance with what nestly has said here. It's a step in the right direction. It's change and change is needed. Beating a dead horse hoping it will magically spring to life again is obviously not going to happen. 

Eliminating the issues that are caused by the title would be a great place to start. And as nestly pointed out, moderating the individuals that have brought things down to the point they're at now will be needed going forward after a name change for sure. 

Combining the gear and tuning back into the main subforum and not separating it any longer is needed as well. Bring this back to an all inclusive target sub forum for anyone to come into and talk target archery at a beginner through professional level.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Check out the poll guys and place a vote in. We can find some clearer direction with just a simple yes or no. 

Here's the link: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4363105


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> Your definition of "beginner" is obviously skewed. Intermediate falls between beginner and advanced, and "most" topics in this forum have been, and can reasonably be expected to fall in that range.


It works both ways. I could say the same thing. Your definition of beginner is obviously skewed. You are correct, Intermediate does fall between the two. But it is not a beginners forum.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

So, IF opened to ALL target discussion, who thinks we would have so many "beginner" topics that it would be cumbersome to find topics that relate to more advanced archer's?

Not a loaded question. Many have had that concern in the past that this would become GenPop light if opened to all things target (there is no wrong answer to this question)


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> Check out the poll guys and place a vote in. We can find some clearer direction with just a simple yes or no.
> 
> Here's the link: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4363105


To maintain a neutral position, I personally will not be voting.
I encourage everyone else to vote, and this will be weighed in with everything else when deciding to modify this forum.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Mahly said:


> So it was doomed from the start, but if we change the content to anything to do with target archery, then we will have a good sub forum again?
> 
> For those who care, this forum is the most heavily moderated forum on AT... save for the classified section (which isn't a discussion forum).
> More strict moderating would pretty much eliminate open discussion.
> ...


It wasn't "doomed from the start". People on here are doing what they do best, that is, taking a good forum and letting sink into a General beginners forum. 
I for one Mahly think you are doing a great job keeping it above a beginners level.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Can some of you answer me this? Why do you think a sub group, with some really great people and discussion, was created from this forum??? Why are some of the early contributors not here now but are there?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Without asking the originator of that group, I could only speculate reasons why someone would want to start a private group.
Regulate who can and can not participate.
Ability to delete,ban or kick from the group anyone that has an opinion or attitude they do not like.
Ability to write their own rules apart from AT's forum rules.

NOT saying that is why that group started. Saying those are logical reasons for starting your own group.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Elitism ideals to say they're above the rest. 

Best part about the whole situation is that the ones in the private group are the bullies that ran everyone else away.


If you're worried about things becoming too, "beginner" for your tastes, then start threads with topics that are advanced. Or, stay in the private group. I don't see any reason that either path to take is wrong at all. This sub forum is what you make of it. And currently, the make of the sub forum has degraded to nothing. To not having a point of even being here.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> So, IF opened to ALL target discussion, who thinks we would have so many "beginner" topics that it would be cumbersome to find topics that relate to more advanced archer's?


They're already here, they're all prefixed by "MOVED:" There's not that many, and even if there were, there are even fewer "advanced" topics. I guess it boils down to whether it's better to promote target archery by making this forum more useful for a larger segment of target archers, or have a very specific forum that's full of dust and crickets. 

For the record, I also reject the idea of turning this into a "beginners" forum, but clearly it's too heavily weighted toward "advanced" at present.

Regarding the private group, that doesn't seem to be a huge success either, despite the fact that they can make their own rules. There has been "drama" there too, and also some in the group have expressed disappointment over participation. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to place all members of the group in the same category, many of the "elitists" did join, but not everyone that joined and/or supports the group is an "elitist"


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Mahly said:


> Without asking the originator of that group, I could only speculate reasons why someone would want to start a private group.
> Regulate who can and can not participate.
> Ability to delete,ban or kick from the group anyone that has an opinion or attitude they do not like.
> Ability to write their own rules apart from AT's forum rules.
> ...


I works and it works well. How strange.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> Elitism ideals to say they're above the rest.
> 
> Best part about the whole situation is that the ones in the private group are the bullies that ran everyone else away.
> 
> ...


Why do you think that is? Threads like this maybe that divide people?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

duc said:


> I works and it works well. How strange.


So you're saying Mahly is a poor moderator and that the moderation of the private group is superior? That's what I'm getting from your post at least.....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> Why do you think that is? Threads like this maybe that divide people?


This topic is a manifestation of the division, not the reason for the division.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

So, if we are to make change, let's be specific as to what does and does not belong here.
Extreme examples:
What (insert bow, sights, stabilizer, arrows etc) should I buy? Go? No go?
Should I paper tune, walk back, French, or bareshaft tune? Which is the best? Go? No go?

Who makes the best pink fletchings? Go? No go?

You get the idea.
If we make changes, where do we want to draw the line?





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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

duc said:


> Why do you think that is? Threads like this maybe that divide people?


People like you. I've had pm's from those that wanted to divide, get others banned, or start trouble admitting that was their intentions. 

You're not one of those, as to not get that rumor started. But you are one of the ones that have something cross to say anytime someone posts. Look around duc. There's not just me, but multiple members here trying to explain this to you. If you don't like it here, please leave and join the private group and keep your topics there. It would do us all a favor.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

A private group has much more moderating power. If you don't like brand X, you can be booted. Don't like the color blue? You can be booted. You disagree with someone, you get booted.

Very orderly, very focused... so was the Soviet Union.

That said, let's keep this focused on the issue at hand.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

RCR_III said:


> So you're saying Mahly is a poor moderator and that the moderation of the private group is superior? That's what I'm getting from your post at least.....


I have seen complaints in the private group about I/A moderation.... I've also seen disagreement about how the private group is moderated. No such thing as a mod that pleases everyone.....


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

And there are limits to moderation here.
I can't ban someone for disagreeing with me. Or for disagreeing with anyone else.
If you are rude, or break the rules, you get points. Get enough points, you get a short ban. Get enough bans you get a longer ban.
After your ban, for the most part you can come right back.

That's the difference between a public and private forum.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I honestly think if we base the subforum around some namesake of Target Archery, or even Competitive Target Archery, then we can leave a short info section under it like is shown currently. Something to the lines of, topics involving target archery equipment, shot execution, mental preparedness, ect. 

Then not have this your topic doesn't belong here type situation, unless it's a hunting topic or something along the lines that clearly will not be target archery related. Then, you take away the self moderating means that started the decline of this sub forum. You take the, your topic doesn't belong here get out mindset away. 

That's been a huge down fall here. Trying to be too picky, too concise, and narrow down too much. Getting away from that mindset will allow this sub forum to be open to more topics, more people, and have a better running atmosphere. 


So asking, what do we exclude, shouldn't be the driving force. It should be asking, what do we put back in.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Everyone go take a look at the other sub forums. Coaching, tuning, brand specific, ect. Do you see a full on front page full of 85% or more of topics saying, "Moved" ? 

No. 

You see topics. Discussions. 

Here, things were built around being so concise and so micro, that we do not have the macro approach the other sub forums have. 

Macro Target/Competitive Archery is what we need to move towards. Not Micro Target/Competitive Archery. That's the solution I believe will have the biggest impact on the future and success of this sub forum.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> People like you. I've had pm's from those that wanted to divide, get others banned, or start trouble admitting that was their intentions.
> 
> You're not one of those, as to not get that rumor started. But you are one of the ones that have something cross to say anytime someone posts. Look around duc. There's not just me, but multiple members here trying to explain this to you. If you don't like it here, please leave and join the private group and keep your topics there. It would do us all a favor.


Really. You want to ban me from your little elitist group because I don't contribute or tow YOUR line. 
Really Robert! Read what you just wrote. Are you any better then those you condemn.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

duc said:


> Really. You want to ban me from your little elitist group because I don't contribute or tow YOUR line.
> Really Robert! Read what you just wrote. Are you any better then those you condemn.


At least my direction is for less negative discussions and not creating them. 

I'm all for eliminating anyone who decides to bully, bring topics down, etc. 

Do I think it should be judge, gavel, execution? No, of course not. There's a due process in place through Archery Talk that works when it's placed into action. I've seen it work.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

And for the record duc, at this point in time is see no reason for you to be banned. I don't mind that you disagree with me. That's part of life. 

The only thing that bothers me is when people bully, bait, harass, and bring others down. Not saying you have or haven't, just a general statement.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> I'm all for eliminating anyone who decides to bully, bring topics down, etc.


As you have just done to me?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Ok, enough.
No one is banning anyone (yet).

We all want it to be better. 
There is going to be some disagreements and there will be common ground.

Let's focus on changes here.
The private group is fine. They don't have to play be many of the AT rules. We do.
Focus on what we can do within those parameters.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> So, if we are to make change, let's be specific as to what does and does not belong here.
> Extreme examples:
> What (insert bow, sights, stabilizer, arrows etc) should I buy? Go? No go?
> Should I paper tune, walk back, French, or bareshaft tune? Which is the best? Go? No go?
> ...


There will never be a clear line regardless of whether you're trying to draw it between beginner and intermediate, or between intermediate and advanced. Draw the line where you think it should be. The only moderation change needed is for the mod to make the determination, not leave it up to everyone to decide for themselves when they they should "correct" someone for posting a topic that doesn't measure up to their definition.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

duc said:


> As you have just done to me?


I've been trying to reason with you. Don't play the victim haha


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Duc, we can do that, but if we are making changes, we need to make them for everyone, not just what I think should or should not go.
I am not the creator, just the moderator. We all create it, as a group we need to have SOME scope of focus. What I want may not be what you or anyone else wants.
Unless everyone thinks I should decide how the forum should run, and what content should be allowed exclusively.
Then we can just call it Mahly's target forum,

I really don't want that. I don't think the majority does either.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

So let's start making changes then! Let's get this ball rolling and see what turns out from it. 

It's consensus that the titles of beginner, intermediate, and advance cause issues. That's been brought up over and over and over and over and.... you get the point..... in so many of the threads like this one. And nothing! has ever changed. 

Shake things up. Take that away. Like the competition portion of the current title? Great, keep it. Make it Competitive Target Archery. 

Beyond that, I feel as if things shouldn't be nit picked and brought down to a point of small inclusions like it is now. Obviously, that's not making the sub forum thrive. It's not promoting the sport we all love. It's not benefiting other members that come into here. It's really not even benefiting the members that stay in here. 

My opinion is just one, but if anyone else agrees with that, speak up. We need to get some changes happening somewhere. 

If nobody, speaks up, then we need someone who will delegate and implement change. Take things in a direction they see fit and see if it crashes and burns. I look at moderators as leaders. Lead. You've been put into your position because someone that had faith in your abilities placed you there. Use that faith and run with it. I don't remember any discussions of what should or shouldn't be placed into other sub forums that went on and on. Eventually someone took the lead and made things happen.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

If anyone has a strong disagreement with what was proposed above, now is the time to say it. And why.
In agreement, say that as well.

On Monday, I will make a proposal to the Admin.
This is the time to be involved with that proposal.


Tomorrow, I will post here what my draft would look like, based on input here.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> If anyone has a strong disagreement with what was proposed above, now is the time to say it. And why.
> In agreement, say that as well.
> 
> On Monday, I will make a proposal to the Admin.
> This is the time to be involved with that proposal.


I support changing the Title and Description of this sub-forum to make it a better resource for a larger segment of "Competitive Target Archers".
(also support merging "gear" back into this sub-forum)


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Mahly said:


> If anyone has a strong disagreement with what was proposed above, now is the time to say it. And why.
> In agreement, say that as well.
> 
> On Monday, I will make a proposal to the Admin.
> ...


Leave it as is. You do a great job given what you have to work with. Any less and it becomes a beginners and newbie section, and they're WELL AND TRULY catered for elsewhere.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Mahly said:


> So, if we are to make change, let's be specific as to what does and does not belong here.
> Extreme examples:
> What (insert bow, sights, stabilizer, arrows etc) should I buy? Go? No go?
> Should I paper tune, walk back, French, or bareshaft tune? Which is the best? Go? No go?
> ...


I'm fine with either leave title as is "IA" or changing it to "Target Archery", as far as equipment goes, I say no to any questions regarding "What type do you like" and etc. Releases or hinge firing techniques are really just that and not equipment choices. Sight choices, doesn't belong here. Others like "How to node tune aluminum vs carbon" is in my opinion something that could be discussed here. Questions about Colors of anything are out, you get the picture. I'll go with the flow because if I see anything here I think is really a beginner's question I'll just not put in my .02 and probably not read it anyway. As I've said in the past, Mahly has done a great job and probably spends way too much time going through all the stuff he does, definitely more than I would like to.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Something else to ponder:
We have at our disposal 2 forums.
This and the target gear/tuning forum.
IF we decide to bring in gear discussion, what would be the best use of that sub forum?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Can you just moth ball it until/unless activity increases?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Possibly. Then again, if it serves no purpose, they may wish to simply delete it for the sake of storage and a simpler menu.
I can't say for sure.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Well if there hasn't been any previous discussion about the need for an additional sub-forum, only a desire to merge, then it would probably be a mistake to merge them, only to divide Target Archery up a different way.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

So again why will "target" be different then what you have now?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Invariably, it would open up to more beginner issues. Probably would start talking form and tuning as much as execution.

Personally, I'd like to leave the "how's my form" threads and this tuning vs. that tuning methods to GenPop and coach's corner.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the mechanics of form, but I've seen many a form thread in GenPop, we don't need to bring that here.... or do we?

Again, just my feeling at the moment.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> Invariably, it would open up to more beginner issues. Probably would start talking form and tuning as much as execution.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to leave the "how's my form" threads and this tuning vs. that tuning methods to GenPop and coach's corner.
> 
> That doesn't mean we can't talk about the mechanics of form, but I've seen many a form thread in GenPop, we don't need to bring that here....


Agree.... I'd rather not see all the "how's my form" threads transfered here. No one has suggested this turn into a free for all, it should remain dedicated to advancing competitive target archery



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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Think it's thread merging time. Let's keep all the bickering to one thread. It's to hard to keep going back and forth:darkbeer:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

This is so funny. Not one single argumentative thread has gone on here for a long time, until this one and its not even about archery. It's about people. And look who is (are) the perpetrator(s). 

Go figure.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

cbrunson said:


> This is so funny. Not one single argumentative thread has gone on here for a long time, until this one and its not even about archery. It's about people. And look who is (are) the perpetrator(s).
> 
> Go figure.


Wouldn't be complete without you ;-)


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

RCR_III said:


> Wouldn't be complete without you ;-)


You wish. Carry on.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

cbrunson said:


> You wish. Carry on.


No wait. Don't go..... seriously though. I poked at you just now just to give you a hard time. No hard feelings.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Mahly, you bring up some good points. The consequences of some of these topics can be more far reaching than it appears at first glance. One that jumped out to me was you statement about fletching color. On the surface it doe not seem like a topic for a serious competitive forum. But it was something that caused me problems when I went from shooting field and NFAA 5 spot to also shooting USA Archery events. The fletching I was using simply disappeared on those red and yellow faces.

So I see just how difficult it is for you to make changes that will benefit competitive archers without weighting the forum down with stuff better suited for the gen pop.

For me, the exclusion of equipment discussions made this forum useless. I am an advanced archer that shoots with other advanced archers. When we are shooting together we seldom talk about float or form. We discuss equipment and equipment setup. Mostly about functionality, reliability and durability.

That is my 2 cents.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Posts deleted by the dozen. Wow.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

The vast majority of which would serve everyone better as PMs.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Mahly said:


> The vast majority of which would serve everyone better as PMs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is where I will disagree. Posting on a open forum shows people in their true light. Nothing Robert has said to me do I take offence at. I may not like some of the things he says or the way he sees thing but so far I haven't been offended. Maybe I'm just have a thick skin.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> This is where I will disagree. Posting on a open forum shows people in their true light. Nothing Robert has said to me do I take offence at. I may not like some of the things he says or the way he sees thing but so far I haven't been offended. Maybe I'm just have a thick skin.


Stop arguing about everything.... geez. Didn't you just compliment Mahly on his moderating? Now you're protesting his decision to clean this topic of superfluous comments that are entirely personal and/or not relevant to the topic at hand..... good grief.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> Stop arguing about everything.... geez. Didn't you just compliment Mahly on his moderating? Now you're protesting his decision to clean this topic of superfluous comments that are entirely personal and/or not relevant to the topic at hand..... good grief.


I'm sorry you mistake a comment for an argument. I simply told Mahly what I thought about deleting posts. I told him and Robert that I wasn't offended by anything said so far. So what's your problem?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

When posting, ask yourself "What does this bring to our topic?".
Please stay with me here on administrative changes to the forum. 
We actually have a good start, let's keep that going.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> I'm sorry you mistake a comment for an argument. I simply told Mahly what I thought about deleting posts. I told him and Robert that I wasn't offended by anything said so far. So what's your problem?


Well, I believe the biggest problem with this forum isn't the title, and isn't the rules, and isn't the subject matter, it's a few abrasive people. I don't expect my observation will have any affect on those people, but I'm confident I'm not alone in that opinion. One bad apple... and all that.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> Well, I believe the biggest problem with this forum isn't the title, and isn't the rules, and isn't the subject matter, it's a few abrasive people. I don't expect my observation will have any affect on those people, but I'm confident I'm not alone in that opinion. One bad apple... and all that.


Have you looked in the mirror lately? Sorry won't lower myself to veiled name calling.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> Have you looked in the mirror lately? Sorry won't lower myself to veiled name calling.


I'm not veiling anything, the moderation took place for a good reason. Yes, I realize I'm participating in the same bad behavior now by continuing the discussion about behavior instead of sticking to the stated topic. The difference between me and you is that I realize it's bad for the forum, and I'm actually hopeful that warnings are issued (including to me) to reduce the public personal disagreements and just debate the issues.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Mahly said:


> If anyone has a strong disagreement with what was proposed above, now is the time to say it. And why.
> In agreement, say that as well.
> 
> On Monday, I will make a proposal to the Admin.
> ...


So I have gotten roughly equal input for and against a name change. At the moment, I'm not inclined to make a change without a stronger majority in favor of it.
It wasn't always I/A comp target. We had people issues before the name change.

The poll in the other tread does not match that input. 
I am going to look back at the history and see what we had before, 
Name change is on hold for the moment.


Creating a gear page was done to declutter. Once I get my new computer (old one died, doing this just with my phone... much fewer options) I will try to clean up the links to gear topics. They are supposed to expire (cleaning themselves). That said, it fills the role it was made for.

This leaves us with where to go from here.

I hear complaining about bullies, and I see people getting of topic and personal. I suspect, if asked, many would point at each other and say they are them bullies, not themselves.
I can eliminate all the bickering, but that will also sterilize the discussion to where everyone is afraid to disagree... that or 1/2 the group ends up banned.

I don't want either of those outcomes.

Virtually every time I need to give an infraction or even a warning, I can count on hearing how "the other guy" started it. 

Again, being Int/Adv archers, we tend to think we are right, and anyone who disagrees is then wrong.

If we get much more strict, we loose open discussion. We are adults (most of us). 
If you start to notice your posts disappearing, or bring cleverly edited, assume you are part of the problem.
As always, if feel you were attacked or someone is being a bully, do NOT reply to it. Report it.

We can talk gear, at least as far as how we use it.
If the discussion involves a brand name, it probably belongs in the gear forum.

Most likely, I'll be editing/deleting more off topic/ offensive posts. This WILL piss some of you off as you will think I'm targeting the wrong guy. I apologize for that, but I don't play favorites. I've had to ban people I had been defending. There are no favorites, even though I get accused of that on occasion.






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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Re-reading the original post. I agree. If you think the content of this forum is lacking, post something useful.
I'll not concern myself with the complaints of those who can't add to the discussions here.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> I hear complaining about bullies, and I see people getting of topic and personal. I suspect, if asked, many would point at each other and say they are them bullies, not themselves.
> I can eliminate all the bickering, but that will also sterilize the discussion to where everyone is afraid to disagree... that or 1/2 the group ends up banned.
> 
> I don't want either of those outcomes.
> ...


Sure, everyone that bickers thinks they're "right", so it can not be left up to them to self moderate. You as the moderator have to make the determination of where to draw the line between legitimate debate, and bickering. Warn, then censor, and then ban those that are still unable to see the difference. We've heard several that say they don't come here because of the bickering, and I suspect there are many others that feel that way. The majority of the bickering isn't even about archery related stuff, it's about egos and personal disagreements. Crack down on that, and the forums become more friendly instantly. If you believe I'm one of the troublemakers, warn me, censor, me then ban me if I don't comply.... .that's your job. The only thing I ask is that you apply the rules equally, regardless of who the offender is, or how long they've been here.



Mahly said:


> Most likely, I'll be editing/deleting more off topic/ offensive posts. This WILL piss some of you off as you will think I'm targeting the wrong guy. I apologize for that, but I don't play favorites. I've had to ban people I had been defending. There are no favorites, even though I get accused of that on occasion.


Step in the right direction, only thing I'd like to see is clearer guidelines about the scope of this forum. ie is it for 550 indoor shooters, or anyone that shoots competitively


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

I just wanna talk archery. 


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

So no changes at all.... that's been the story all along with these types of threads really. Nothing ever gets changed and we end up right back here.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

RCR_III said:


> So no changes at all.... that's been the story all along with these types of threads really. Nothing ever gets changed and we end up right back here.


I'm generally on your side on this matter, but that's not what Mahly said. The forum name isn't the problem, it's off-topic/offensive posts, and he said he'll likely be monitoring that more closely. The only part that concerns me is the "likely" part.... as there's *definitely* a need for more strict moderation of negative comments. Changing the name in itself won't change the existing bad behavior, so I'm kinda indifferent about that, but there does need to be more clear guidelines about what is and is not appropriate in this forum, as right now, everyone is making up their own rules, and trying to force them onto everyone else. I guess I'm somewhat surprised that Mahly said feedback for the name change has been somewhat equal, because that's not at all what the poll indicates, and not what the comments indicate either. Last time I checked, there were only 4 against changing the name, and they were outnumbered by a 9 to 1 margin in favor of changing. If there's that much opposition to the name change, why are there only 4 that voted that way? It's not unlike the quantification poll some time ago, the results show that forum members overwhelmingly oppose placing labels on users based on score, but that didn't phase those who continue to do it. 
It does raise the question about who this forum is for though. Is if for the less vocal majority, or the more vocal minority.... from where I stand, the minority has the power, even though they've largely withdrawn from participating here.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

nestly said:


> Sure, everyone that bickers thinks they're "right", so it can not be left up to them to self moderate. You as the moderator have to make the determination of where to draw the line between legitimate debate, and bickering. Warn, then censor, and then ban those that are still unable to see the difference. We've heard several that say they don't come here because of the bickering, and I suspect there are many others that feel that way. The majority of the bickering isn't even about archery related stuff, it's about egos and personal disagreements. Crack down on that, and the forums become more friendly instantly. If you believe I'm one of the troublemakers, warn me, censor, me then ban me if I don't comply.... .that's your job. The only thing I ask is that you apply the rules equally, regardless of who the offender is, or how long they've been here.
> 
> 
> 
> Step in the right direction, only thing I'd like to see is clearer guidelines about the scope of this forum. ie is it for 550 indoor shooters, or anyone that shoots competitively


It's like porn, you know it when you see it.
I'm not going to validate every field, Vegas, and 5 spot score claimed.
We've never censored who was posting, just what the topic was.

Sometimes seemingly more novice topics evolve into something more advanced.




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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> So no changes at all.... that's been the story all along with these types of threads really. Nothing ever gets changed and we end up right back here.


Changes on hold.... vs. making (or more accurately asking for them) on Monday.
Reviewing history on an iPhone with Tapatalk is horribly cumbersome comparatively.
New computer should be here tomorrow. Can get much more done then.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> So no changes at all.... that's been the story all along with these types of threads really. Nothing ever gets changed and we end up right back here.


Which is what Mahly thinks it should be, right or wrong. How does the saying go...you can pleases some of the people.......


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> It's like porn, you know it when you see it.


I dunno, if bad behavior was porn, I sure wouldn't want my mom browsing this forum. 



Mahly said:


> I'm not going to validate every field, Vegas, and 5 spot score claimed.


Nobody should, it's a fools game. Topics and comments should be evaluated on their merit, not by the score someone claims to shoot.



Mahly said:


> We've never censored who was posting, just what the topic was
> Sometimes seemingly more novice topics evolve into something more advanced.


Exactly, and that's why there should be more acceptance of a wider range of competition related subject matter. Nobody should be permitted to poison a topic because they feel the person commenting, or the subject matter, is not advanced enough.... (or because they have a personal problem with another member). There is too much bullying that goes on in here. The bullies should be run out, not their victims.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Well, there is a change that can be made.
From day 1 this was supposed to be a very self moderated forum.
If we can agree that this was an idea of good intentions, with poor results, we can change that facet.

Is there a good argument against changing it from a semi-self moderating forum, to being more of a forum that is more hands off as far as group moderating is concerned? 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> Is there a good argument against changing it from a semi-self moderating forum, to being more of a forum that is more hands off as far as group moderating is concerned?


Given the result of self moderation, I don't think so, particularly with the lack of definition for "Intermediate". We've had some suggest that everyone that uses this forum should already have mastered back tension. Others have suggested that this forum should be limited to the mental aspects of competitive archery. I happen to believe both of those are unreasonably high expectations for "Intermediate" (even too strict to be excluded from an "Advanced" discussions). If two people with entirely different ideas about what this forum "should be" are both permitted to be mini-mods, the result can easily be predicted. 

I recommend being more descriptive about the scope of this forum (whether the forum is renamed or not), and then leave the enforcement of content and conduct up to the designated moderators.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Denial: psychology : a condition in which someone will not admit that something sad, painful, etc., is true or real.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

EPLC said:


> Denial: psychology : a condition in which someone will not admit that something sad, painful, etc., is true or real.


I do agree wholeheartedly.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh my god, I went home for the weekend and missed out on all of this stuff. 

I read back through the last three pages of the thread and the one thing that stood out the most was the name COMPETITIVE TARGET ARCHERY.

For some reason that really sounds good to me for us here. I haven't had all weekend to think about it or be involved but It seemed like Mahly was going to be doing things today so I wanted to at least say something.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I should have my new computer in today.
Once set up and running, I'll look back at where we came from and look at our options.
"Competitive target archery" is pretty much what we were looking at.
Serves a similar purpose as the current name, without seeming as judgmental to some.
What is intermediate? What is advanced? Then again, what is competitive? Are we competitive? Or do we just shoot competitions?

Nothing is going to be rushed through.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Archery talk is a tough place to survive, it took me a long time to find out who I wanted to be here in the threads and once I made the decision to present myself in that way it opened me up to some tough things to deal with. In the end it wasn't so bad.

To me the best stuff that ever happens with archery talk in this forum or the general forum is when a lower level shooter asks some questions and a couple of us chime in and give him the methods or solutions that we see that might help him. During that exchange many times is where the discussion between me and the other guy will happen where we discuss the differences in our approaches. This exchange between the two helpers is where I am forced to really bear down and think about my positions and beliefs and find a way. Many times it was that discussion that forced me to rethink my position and change, when the discussion started I would have been 100% convinced that I was right and had a perfectly good position and then my little world of perfection came crashing down. 

I love it when that happens, sure I want to have good solid fundamentals in my methods and thoughts but for me when one of the good shooters in the threads can find a way to open the door to me so that I can go through it and become better it is freaking awesome. The guy that did it the most is from Alaska, crap I can't remember his username right now. N7709k, he is a strong shooter and I can remember discussing things with him many times in threads started by other people and then all of a sudden there it would be. A life changing archery moment for me once again where he presented a subject in a way that allowed me to be a better shooter.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'd like to be optimistic, but IMO there's been no progress toward resolving the biggest problem with this forum. Namely, defining what subject matter is and is not acceptable here. Whether it's acknowledged or not, there is a struggle for power here between the "classes". The first step is to remove the class mentality so that all opinions are equally welcome. Note: I did not say everyone has to have the same opinion, but all opinions should be respected equally. The merits of said opinion is for the individual readers to determine *for themselves*.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me the general archery section is a anything goes place and this place just feels like the COMPETITIVE TARGET ARCHERY place. It is where a guy who wants to be competitive can come and ask a question and hear from the top amateurs and a few pro shooters who are on archery talk. I want to be one of the guys that checks this area and hopefully give a guy something to think about that helps him but I also want to be a guy that gets something out of this area. I am still trying to get better so that I can progress to a new level. I love the level that I am at right now but I want to be even better.

I need and want n7709k and cbrunson and wolff44 and all the other strong shooters to be here in this area so that they can participate and debate with me.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Padgett said:


> To me the general archery section is a anything goes place and this place just feels like the COMPETITIVE TARGET ARCHERY place. It is where a guy who wants to be competitive can come and ask a question and hear from the top amateurs and a few pro shooters who are on archery talk. I want to be one of the guys that checks this area and hopefully give a guy something to think about that helps him but I also want to be a guy that gets something out of this area. I am still trying to get better so that I can progress to a new level. I love the level that I am at right now but I want to be even better.
> 
> I need and want n7709k and cbrunson and wolff44 and all the other strong shooters to be here in this area so that they can participate and debate with me.


Totally agree... but there's a lot of disagreement about where the line should be drawn, and that's not surprising since there's no guidelines. According to some, if you can't shoot at least 290/300 in competition, you are below "Intermediate" level, and therefore unqualified to ask questions, or offer advice.... some even believe the criteria should be higher. 

I reject all of that, and feel this forum should promote participation among all that have a genuine interest in a) becoming a better competitor themselves, or b) helping others become better competitors.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Here is where I am at for the moment:

Name change: I can see an argument for changing the name. Want to do a little more review before making a change

Content: 
I still don't see a need to bring in brand discussion. With it comes fanboys, and bashing. 
Tuning? Perhaps we could allow tuning discussions. Heck the debate on how much tuning is "needed" is certainly valid. I would probably want to moderate that a bit more tightly. VERY easy to get into a fanboy/hater fight over different methods.
Gear discussion? As it relates to shooting and why. 
Self-moderation? Move more to the reporting of threads. A KIND suggestion that their thread may get more input in a different forum would be perfectly welcome. Telling a poster that their topic is not advanced enough would not be.
Spirited discussion: This is a fine line. Open discussion requires people being allowed to disagree. Insulting and demeaning remarks are not.
Some people do not like to be challenged. I have had more than one shooter here complain to me that someone who wasn't as "advanced" as he was should not be allowed to question or challenge his advice. Sorry, if you can't make your case, and let others decide if they should take your advice, a public group is not for you.
If you can't make your case without insulting the abilities of others shooters, an open public forum is not for you.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Given the result of self moderation, I don't think so, particularly with the lack of definition for "Intermediate". We've had some suggest that everyone that uses this forum should *already have mastered back tension*. Others have suggested that this forum should be limited to the mental aspects of competitive archery. I happen to believe both of those are unreasonably high expectations for "Intermediate" (even too strict to be excluded from an "Advanced" discussions). If two people with entirely different ideas about what this forum "should be" are both permitted to be mini-mods, the result can easily be predicted.
> 
> I recommend being more descriptive about the scope of this forum (whether the forum is renamed or not), and then leave the enforcement of content and conduct up to the designated moderators.


Bold exchanged, copied from original; "At this level YOU SHOULD know everything about a hinge and how to shoot it."

Didn't Dietmar Trillus, World Champion, win Vegas as a puncher? Tim Gillingham is still running with top runners as a puncher. I haven't used a hinge in real competition, but have done well in both NFAA and ASA state sanctioned events with a index and then with thumb release. A thumb release has not proved any better, equal, but not better.

Advanced; Book talking discussion at best and then interpretations as the reader wants? Who have been here or are here that are a step up. Two that come to mind, Tony M. and Padgett. Kent Stigall would be another, but so rare for him to be here. They shoot at the national level and do well. What coach or notable Pro has been here. Griv stepped in once or twice and hasn't been back. So we are to learn a better way or mental manner from those that are still here?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mahly said:


> Here is where I am at for the moment:
> 
> Name change: I can see an argument for changing the name. Want to do a little more review before making a change
> 
> ...


Sounds reasonable. 
The only thing I'll comment on is the part about the "KIND suggestion" Since neither the OP, nor any other regular member can move it anyway, why not just bring it to the mods attention and eliminate the potential for a side debate about whether or not the topic is misplaced.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the hardest things is being open to discussion about yourself, especially when you are the one offering help to someone and then somebody points out that they don't like your shooting form or method that you believe in. I know that two of the guys that I have to deal with all the time in shooting form threads that teach, I don't like their personal form at all and if was coaching them it would be changed. But I have to function with them in the shooting form threads, to do that I just present my fundamental thoughts on shooting form and don't even really touch what they are presenting at all. I then have to let the shooter in that thread choose to like what I have to say and pick me or not pick me, it is his choice in the end.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One thing I would suggest and I just don't know if we can convince people to talk about it but, how to fire a release or tune a bow just totally dictates so much of the discussions. I know that I spent years thinking about that stuff over and over and yes my shooting has improved and I am happy that it did but in all reality it was a very subtle change in ability to shoot strong. But so much of my time was spent thinking about just getting rid of the arrow. 

In all reality that is why I like the Competitive target shooting type name for the forum because that to me kind of opens up the doors to how to play the different games that are out there from 3d to indoor to field etc. My biggest gains in being able to go up the ladder in 3d have nothing to do with my accuracy, it has to do with how I play the game and manage the course and all the other stuff that I have learned. Back in 2010 when I first came to archery talk most of the shooting stuff wasn't readily available but now it is very easily found in a variety of places but how to play the game still really isn't. A few of us have taken the time to write down how we play the game but only at the amateur level. 

I know my few competitor friends that have shot better than me and became pro 3d guys when I do talk to them they mention how different the good pro shooters play the game compared to us when we were in open b open a and semi pro. Well I would personally love to know how they play the game but other than a 30 second interview here and there you just don't get to see them talk about it.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

OK, New computer is in and up.
Bear with me on the cleaning up of links on threads that have been moved...this may take some time.

We started originally as "Target archery". Eventually many thought that was too open and wanted to have more "serious" topics. So we changed to Int/Adv target archery.
Currently, many feel that title leave too much to interpretation. What IS Intermediate? Advanced? That, and our traffic is much lower. It didn't bring in MORE serious topics, it simply reduced less serious topics.
I have no issues going to a Competition target archery title. While still ambiguous we eliminate the self moderating aspect of defining what is Int or Adv. 
Does the topic relate to COMPETITION target archery? You don't have to be a pro to be involved in competition. Will we be besieged with topics like "How do I get started shooting competitively?"? Maybe.
Is that going to be an issue? I think maybe we just learn to scroll past topics that don't interest us and put a little less restriction on what a fitting topic is.
I'm inclined to bring tuning back here, but leave the Gear section for brand name gear discussions (How to I adjust "X" on brand "Y" bow? What arrows are the most consistent? Which are consistent enough etc.).

As far as tuning (and coaching) goes, the rules remain in effect. No pushing paid for coaching or tuning here. We don't let sponsors advertise here. They can post replies to threads, they can answer questions about their products, but no soliciting, or selling. No links to unsponsored web pages. If someone is interested in your products/services, keep it to PMs. No spam, meaning no touting how great a product,service, or person is. Nothing new there. 


What are your thoughts? Nothing is written in stone. No specific changes are imminent. Your input will drive the changes.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Mahly,

I like the way you are thinking on this. However, I don't mind the "How do I get started shooting competitively?" questions. Maybe we can put up a sticky that covers this and when a target newbie asks, just kindly refer them to the sticky.

On the specific brand questions, maybe we can direct them to the brand specific forums. There is a brand specific forum for every manufacturer I ever heard about and maybe a couple more. 

Allen


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

^^^ I feel the same and agree with the observations and proposed changes detailed in post #130 above.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My thing is that going from punching a trigger allowed me to not have 5 or so flinches per 3d round.

Shooting with a 120grain point allows me to aim at arrows in the 12 ring and bash them and still get a 12 or 10 3 or so times per round.

Setting up my 3rd axis allows me to shoot dead on when the footing and terrain could have caused me to hit left or right with my bubble lying to me. 

All of these types of things allow me to compete at a nice competitive level and to me should be open to discussion along with everything else that goes on in competitive target archery in every venue. Learning to shoot back tension surprise releases and set up a arrow etc all add up to a strong shooter and are to me worth discussion.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

aread said:


> Mahly,
> 
> I like the way you are thinking on this. However, I don't mind the "How do I get started shooting competitively?" questions. Maybe we can put up a sticky that covers this and when a target newbie asks, just kindly refer them to the sticky.
> 
> ...


Of course some of those topics are "which brand of bow/release/arrow/sight should I buy?". Those would be "target gear" forum topics.

The topics Padgett was describing can all be done without focusing on brand. I'm ok with those staying in.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Tuning I think shouldn't be here either. There is General and Tuning that discusses tuning ad nauseam. I'll say it again. At this level tuning should be well and truly understood but all.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

duc said:


> Tuning I think shouldn't be here either. There is General and Tuning that discusses tuning ad nauseam. I'll say it again. At this level tuning should be well and truly understood but all.


I guess holding a few state titles qualifies me as intermediate and I don't know 1/2 of what I want about tuning. I do believe that there are fat shaft and other target arrow tuning tips that can be shared here that are far beyond the standard hunting and plinking tuning questions.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

AKDoug said:


> I guess holding a few state titles qualifies me as intermediate and I don't know 1/2 of what I want about tuning. I do believe that there are fat shaft and other target arrow tuning tips that can be shared here that are far beyond the standard hunting and plinking tuning questions.


^^^ This. I remember when the 10X arrow came out and then the barrage of tuning tips for it. John Dudley for one. The Victory X Killer was another arrow even the factory didn't know all. Bow, arrow matched and the only factory 150 gr glue-in point was too heavy for it. 
Not too long ago Tim Gillingham penned Torque Tuning, recognizing Jesse Broadwater as the one giving of it. Jesse even giving instructions of how to find and correct for it.... I tried it. It worked. Is it for everyone or is it really needed, I don't know. In my mind I believe that shot execution is more paramount.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

There's a lot to be said for arrow tuning at an advanced level. There's so much you can do to get arrow's matching the bow/vise versa. And then there's even more you can do for flight characteristics. This is something that only an archer with a high enough skill level will see too. I can take my Podium X Elite right now and shoot two sets of arrows I have and by tracking groupings know which will be better for the bow. And both "spine" out according to OT2, but the bow really likes one build up of them over the other for sure. Topics like that are helpful for competitive target archers.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

AKDoug said:


> I guess holding a few state titles qualifies me as intermediate and I don't know 1/2 of what I want about tuning. I do believe that there are fat shaft and other target arrow tuning tips that can be shared here that are far beyond the standard hunting and plinking tuning questions.


Looks like it's not holding you back.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> There's a lot to be said for arrow tuning at an advanced level. There's so much you can do to get arrow's matching the bow/vise versa. And then there's even more you can do for flight characteristics. This is something that only an archer with a high enough skill level will see too. I can take my Podium X Elite right now and shoot two sets of arrows I have and by tracking groupings know which will be better for the bow. And both "spine" out according to OT2, but the bow really likes one build up of them over the other for sure. Topics like that are helpful for competitive target archers.


Tell Mr. Ragsdale this.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I've watch people endlessly tuning and tuning and tuning trying to convince themselves that's what's lacking. I've watched people spend little time worrying about tuning, have what is considered poor arrow flight but practice and train to shoot like a machine and are far better shooters for it. The more consistent you are, the less you need to tune. Just my thoughts.


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## andyg8264 (Aug 24, 2016)

duc said:


> I've watch people endlessly tuning and tuning and tuning trying to convince themselves that's what's lacking. I've watched people spend little time worrying about tuning, have what is considered poor arrow flight but practice and train to shoot like a machine and are far better shooters for it. The more consistent you are, the less you need to tune. Just my thoughts.


Lol... Agreed

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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> Tuning I think shouldn't be here either. ..... At this level tuning should be well and truly understood but all.


There ARE top rated archers that believe tuning matters, and there ARE some that that believe it's not... so I don't see how it's reasonable for this forum to take one position over the other and exclude tuning as a topic for discussion. Those that don't believe tuning has any impact on accuracy/score are free to say so when the topic arises, or they can simply choose not to participate in topics that don't interest them. 

Again, it comes down to whether this forum is going to be *inclusive* all factors that MAY improve a persons competitiveness, or whether it's going to be *exclusive* and only open to topics that a particular group believe are important.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Don't like a tuning post/thread, don't enter it. Moderators will tell you; "Ignore it."


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd like this forum to be more inclusive with advance tuning threads. It will help attract people who may not consider themselves Intermediate or Advance, but shoot and tune pretty good. Once they get comfortable in here, they may begin to contribute to the discussions. 

Allen


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Don't like a tuning post/thread, don't enter it. Moderators will tell you; "Ignore it."


Want a tuning post/thread, look it up on the tuning forum. Moderators will tell you; "search engine"


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

There are tuning posts in how many other forums here??? Like we need another one?? Type "tuning" in search an see how many other forums here talk about it, endlessly.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

duc said:


> There are tuning posts in how many other forums here??? Like we need another one?? Type "tuning" in search an see how many other forums here talk about it, endlessly.


Man all you do on here is take the opposite position just for arguments sake. It's annoying, you aren't contributing, and it's stuff like this we don't need in here.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

So we can agree that we disagree.....


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

duc said:


> There are tuning posts in how many other forums here??? Like we need another one?? Type "tuning" in search an see how many other forums here talk about it, endlessly.


Most of those tuning threads & posts are pretty basic. Hopefully we can get more advanced tuning threads in here.

The old saying is that you can only tune as good as you can shoot. I'd like to see threads for better shooters. An example would be Dudley's article on point weight adjustment based on the shape of a group at longer distances. If you can't hit the gold at 90m this isn't going to work well for you. So it doesn't show up in most of the General or Tuning forums. IMO, This is the place for the more advanced techniques.

Allen


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Endless tuning threads available for all on many other forums. How many more do you all need??????? 
AN ENTIRE FORUM CALLED ........WAIT FOR IT......BOW TUNING. HOW ABOUT THAT!!!!!


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

post count does not always correlate with knowledge, not meant to be a stab at anyone but just saying


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And countless bickering gets us nowhere. I good idea we're going to get what we get. Learn to live with it.....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

nochance said:


> post count does not always correlate with knowledge, not meant to be a stab at anyone but just saying


Agree, post count should not be considered when evaluating the knowledge of a user, or the merit of their post. Same is true for pictures of targets with arrow holes in them.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

duc said:


> How about YOU TRY, and I emphasise TRY, tell us why you think tuning should be included here. Can you do that?? Is that to much to ask.


Well I already posted an example on arrows. 

And your retort is that there are sooo many other tuning threads. If that's your merit on the subject, then why have this forum at all. There's a whole bunch of threads about everything already on archery talk. 

Just use the search function. ;-)


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Discussion has devolved into a "measuring contest" again. In order for this forum to be successful, that behavior needs to stop, whether it's done voluntarily by the individual(s), or whether it requires censor or banishment.

That's a general observation, not directed at anyone in particular, so it applies equally to myself.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

I will weigh in, personally I feel the the equipment part of AI forum should go away and be lumped in, I know that will be a problem for some and it can easily turn this sub section into the general archery forum but way to often a subject like "arrow rest position" will end up having more to do with every part of AI archery then just the rest itself as it will effect how a bow aims and how a bow aims will affect how the archer executes his shot.

The hard part is separating the beginner babbling from truly advanced archers. Again Ill use the rest location, if I posted in the general section "what affect will raising my rest and d-loop 1/8" have" I would get 10 pages of "just set it in the center"


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> Well I already posted an example on arrows.
> 
> And your retort is that there are sooo many other tuning threads. If that's your merit on the subject, then why have this forum at all. There's a whole bunch of threads about everything already on archery talk.
> 
> Just use the search function. ;-)


The mental aspect of the game of archery is in my opinion far more a relevant to Intermediate and Advanced shooter then any discussion on equipment and how to use it. So is the mental discipline of TRAINING. To much emphasis on equipment and tuning pulls, again in my opinion (and I am allowed to have them), the forum down to a beginners forum. The mental aspect of aiming, the mental aspect of knowing when to let the shot go, the mindset of the archer when they put a training regimen together and why they chose it and what aspect of their training I'd done to overcome their perceived weakness/s. What's in their head-space when they're under pressure. How they confront their demons when thing go pear-shaped. These things aren't talked about as much as they should be, on any forum. They're not talked about because to most, it's boring. Training is boring and repetitive, something MOST people don't want to do in this "I want it now" society. It also makes forum reading so ho hum. 
Mahly brings a good balance with his selection, enough to keep it interesting without it becoming a beginners forum.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I have an idea, why not have a Beginner Competition forum? That way all the experts can go over there and impart their wisdom to the newbees. And the newbees won't have to come in here and clog up this forum with their trivial babbling beginner questions.

They can have a place where they can feel welcome and at the same time soak up all the archery knowledge from all the experts. 
I get private messages all the time from new shooters interested in starting into competitions but they just don't know where to start or who to ask.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

XForce Girl said:


> I have an idea, why not have a Beginner Competition forum? That way all the experts can go over there and impart their wisdom to the newbees. And the newbees won't have to come in here and clog up this forum with their trivial babbling beginner questions.
> 
> They can have a place where they can feel welcome and at the same time soak up all the archery knowledge from all the experts.
> I get private messages all the time from new shooters interested in starting into competitions but they just don't know where to start or who to ask.


Experts! We have experts here? Thought they were all chased off by the so called "experts". 
Seriously though, sounds like a good idea BUT I think it would have to be a new headed forum with a separate Mod and not tied to this forum. Or if kept simple enough then it could be a sticky with basic info on how to get started. There probably isn't enough for newbie comp shooters.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

OK, here is where I am with the tuning/gear issues. It will probably any all slightly, but is the best compromise I can think of.

Gear: Competition based questions, How/Why we use certain types of gear and how/why we set-up like we do is OK in the main target forum
What brand of "_____" should I buy? Brand "X" VS. brand "Y", What pro shoots what brand etc. Keep that in the gear forum

Tuning: This will be a bit of a balancing act. What is "____" tuning? Which was should I move my rest? What method of tuning is best? etc, Those belong in GenPop. 
How does tuning effect hold? Why you prefer "____" tuning (within reason), the effects of tuning (for example the theory and effects of "Node" tuning or "Torque" tuning etc). Those can stay in the main target forum.
We do not have so much traffic that the inclusion of a few more topics will swap us and we won't be able to find "the good stuff".

As for some other things: 
How's my form? GenPop or coaches corner. That said, if someone is working on a new firing technique, or having trouble with execution. A form pic here and there is not out of line. These should be very specific issues. This is another 'grey area", that I will need to deal with.

Self moderation: We stop telling people that their threads do not belong here. I'm still OK with informing someone that they might get a better response in a different forum. Recurve questions come to mind. Not that we can't talk Oly stuff here, only that there is another place with a larger Oly population.

I do not want to exclude any target disciplines. FITA, Field, Vegas, Target, 5 spot, 3-D etc etc are all competition target sports. Yes, there is a 3-D forum, and a FITA forum. I believe there can be some beneficial "cross talk" and again, we aren't so swamped that we can't allow a few posts that don't interest everyone here.

Search vs. Ingore? BOTH are valid. One can use the search engine for topics that interest them, and people can also ignore posts that do not interest them.

Moderation. I think to think we can all get along, but apparently some can/will not. I have said it before, I'll say it again. Do NOT attack others, and do NOT reply to attacks....especially with attacks of your own. It makes more work for me, and will get you infractions along with the "other guy". I want to keep an open/free discussion. This means people can disagree with you. I continue to urge members to make a good argument for why you are "right", and not to focus only on why the other guy is "wrong". There is no prize for winning the argument. You don't split the prize with someone you didn't prove wrong. Don't make this a place where people can't disagree with you.... There is Facebook for that.

I will be in contact with Admin about making these changes


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

XForce Girl said:


> I have an idea, why not have a Beginner Competition forum? That way all the experts can go over there and impart their wisdom to the newbees. And the newbees won't have to come in here and clog up this forum with their trivial babbling beginner questions.
> 
> They can have a place where they can feel welcome and at the same time soak up all the archery knowledge from all the experts.
> I get private messages all the time from new shooters interested in starting into competitions but they just don't know where to start or who to ask.


I don't see that being substantially different than what we have now. There's still going to be classes (hierarchy) within the "Competition" forums, with no clear way to distinguish between them, thus never ending bickering by some who are more interested in labels, than advancing competitive archery. No member has any obligation to reply to every topic, so I don't see why we can't all just participate in the topics that we want to, and stay out of those we don't.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

duc said:


> Experts! We have experts here? Thought they were all chased off by the so called "experts".
> Seriously though, sounds like a good idea BUT I think it would have to be a new headed forum with a separate Mod and not tied to this forum. Or if kept simple enough then it could be a sticky with basic info on how to get started. There probably isn't enough for newbie comp shooters.



At the moment, I'm thinking the sticky is a good idea. I'm also thinking there is room for a few less advanced shooters to post here based on thread count.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

XForce Girl said:


> I have an idea, why not have a Beginner Competition forum? That way all the experts can go over there and impart their wisdom to the newbees. And the newbees won't have to come in here and clog up this forum with their trivial babbling beginner questions. They can have a place where they can feel welcome and at the same time soak up all the archery knowledge from all the experts.


I like the idea but i think there are a few here that want to help the beginners on this forum which is great but not what it was originally intended for.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Mahly said:


> OK, here is where I am with the tuning/gear issues. It will probably any all slightly, but is the best compromise I can think of.
> 
> Gear: Competition based questions, How/Why we use certain types of gear and how/why we set-up like we do is OK in the main target forum
> What brand of "_____" should I buy? Brand "X" VS. brand "Y", What pro shoots what brand etc. Keep that in the gear forum
> ...


So not a whole lot of changes then. Sounds good to me. As I've said I think you do a commendable job here though I wish you hadn't deleted/edited some of my posts.......... some of my spell could have been corrected.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

A beginner forum would be best. It would negate the original philosophy of peer discussion, but that never really worked anyway.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> A beginner forum would be best. It would negate the original philosophy of peer discussion, but that never really worked anyway.


I thought so too. With the title "Beginner" a lot of folks would then have a place to post their questions. They could feel comfortable asking because they have a place.
Right now there isn't a real place for them to post beginner questions except the General discussion and even there they get beat up sometimes.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Again, based on the traffic we get, allowing less advanced shooters/topics won't flood the place with beginner content.

As mentioned, the peer discussion, while there was some, did not become as popular as originally hoped for.
There is still plenty of room here for that discussion as well.

Eliminating the Int/adv from the rest of the title makes the place less exclusive... in a way, against the original intent of the forum, but will hopefully also bring more people to the discussions.

The suggestion of a "sticky/FAQs" to help beginners get on the same page makes sense, and should keep the absolute beginner topics to a minimum.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

The problem I see with a beginner forum is that people posting the questions want answers from "experts" or at least people that know more then they do. If they post in a "beginner" section they might feel only beginners will be giving the answers.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

XForce Girl said:


> I thought so too. With the title "Beginner" a lot of folks would then have a place to post their questions. They could feel comfortable asking because they have a place.
> Right now there isn't a real place for them to post beginner questions except the General discussion and even there they get beat up sometimes.


I agree. I do think it would still have the same issues this one has had in the past though. One of them being the issue of credibility.

One of the biggest contributors, whether I agree with everything he says or not, Padgett has said many times in the past how arduous it was to filter through much of the "well known truths" to get good information. If you take even this very new sub-forum to its roots you will see a lot of discussion, albeit heated, about cracking open the "known" ways to approach certain aspects of release execution, which at the time was considered one single accepted truth, to what now appears to be a generalized accepted practice of multiple technique options. That is a good thing, which I believe is also a product of the fortitude of those willing to buck the trend both figuratively, and literally from behind the string. A lot of that was met with confrontation, arguments, warnings, banning, and unfortunately intimidation. But ultimately the trend was bucked and now a new way of thinking and advice sharing allows for those options.

If that had not taken place, we would still be saying "Back tension with a hinge is the only way." 

Those differences of opinions can be very frustrating for a beginner to sort through though. I'm sure you know. Who do you believe? Screen name "x", or screen name "y"? It sure would be a lot more beneficial to the beginners if questioning credibility were not only accepted, but encouraged. One thing is for certain, an NTS level 3, or an accomplished pro, semi-pro, or even well known amateur is going to be giving information from actual experience rather than guesswork, or "this is what so and so says to do."


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

There was never any agreement how to define "Intermediate" or "Advanced" so why would it be any easier to define "Beginner"? When last put to a vote, the majority rejected the premise that this forum should even try to quantify/define "Intermediate" and "Advanced". It makes no difference if there is a "beginners" forum or not, the same controversy will exist in I-A when someone feels a topic or member is not "advanced" enough to post there.

As for credibility, that's not something that can easily be quantified either. A person can have great knowledge or experience in certain aspects of archery, but not others. If credibility on a forum has any value at all, it's built upon the strength of their posts, not something that can be gained by posting pictures of targets with holes in them.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

nestly said:


> There was never any agreement how to define "Intermediate" or "Advanced" so why would it be any easier to define "Beginner"? When last put to a vote, the majority rejected the premise that this forum should even try to quantify/define "Intermediate" and "Advanced". It makes no difference if there is a "beginners" forum or not, the same controversy will exist in I-A when someone feels a topic or member is not "advanced" enough to post there.
> 
> As for credibility, that's not something that can easily be quantified either. A person can have great knowledge or experience in certain aspects of archery, but not others. If credibility on a forum has any value at all, it's built upon the strength of their posts, not something that can be gained by posting pictures of targets with holes in them.


The calibre of the question asked is a good, although not perfect, indicator of someone's competence level. This is I think how Mahly sees it. Again, you can please some of the people..... This place will never be perfect for all. But as is it's not so bad.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

For most topics, people can find credible, respected, "pros" on either side.
At some point, one must make a leap of faith. Do I want to try what this guy says? Or should I listen to that guy?
If it works, tell us. If it didn't, tell us that as well, and try another suggestion.
Again, there are no prizes for getting people to agree with you.
We don't keep score on who was right more often.
There are no bonus points for proving someone else wrong.

We eventually did make a forum that needed credentials.
Their opinions would be "protected" from the unproven, un-credentialed masses. 
Absolutely nothing came out of that forum.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> The calibre of the question asked is a good, although not perfect, indicator of someone's competence level. This is I think how Mahly sees it. Again, you can please some of the people..... This place will never be perfect for all. But as is it's not so bad.


My comments about credibility were primarily a response to cbrunson's (last paragraph in post #170), which is not about how the "advanced" assess the credibility of newbies, but how newbies are supposed to assess the credibility of those thought to be more "advanced". Either way though, my response would be the same.... every question and every reply should be evaluated on it's own by the person reading it.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

nestly said:


> Agree, post count should not be considered when evaluating the knowledge of a user, or the merit of their post. Same is true for pictures of targets with arrow holes in them.


You talkin' about Sonny?

LOL


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> I agree. I do think it would still have the same issues this one has had in the past though. One of them being the issue of credibility.
> 
> One of the biggest contributors, whether I agree with everything he says or not, Padgett has said many times in the past how arduous it was to filter through much of the "well known truths" to get good information. If you take even this very new sub-forum to its roots you will see a lot of discussion, albeit heated, about cracking open the "known" ways to approach certain aspects of release execution, which at the time was considered one single accepted truth, to what now appears to be a generalized accepted practice of multiple technique options. That is a good thing, which I believe is also a product of the fortitude of those willing to buck the trend both figuratively, and literally from behind the string. A lot of that was met with confrontation, arguments, warnings, banning, and unfortunately intimidation. But ultimately the trend was bucked and now a new way of thinking and advice sharing allows for those options.
> 
> ...


I deal with this everyday in my shop.
Some new person comes in and proceeds to tell me all they know about Archery.
I can immediately tell they have been on Archery talk just by the "knowledge" they are sharing with me.
Just last week I had a self proclaimed newbee who disputed just about everything I was telling him because the "internet" said otherwise.
When the first words out of their mouth are "measure my draw length" I pretty much know they have been surfing on AT. Or some other Internet forum.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

carlosii said:


> You talkin' about Sonny?


No, I was referring to pics of Vegas faces with 30 or 60 holes in them, but the same can be said of pictures of "groups". Without context and verification, they have no real meaning

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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

XForce Girl said:


> I deal with this everyday in my shop.
> Some new person comes in and proceeds to tell me all they know about Archery.
> I can immediately tell they have been on Archery talk just by the "knowledge" they are sharing with me.
> Just last week I had a self proclaimed newbee who disputed just about everything I was telling him because the "internet" said otherwise.
> ...


It certainly is tough to sort out good information from bad. It's amazing how people are so willing to accept things from an anonymous screen name over a certified factory technician, certified USA Archery coach, or even a seasoned professional. Even worse is the fact that the few of those individuals that were willing to post here have been driven off by those anonymous screen names because they don't like being challenged for credibility.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

*Data*

Here is some data, as an engineer, anecdotes don't hold much water with me. The gear forum started in October 2015 but gear threads were being moved well before then. There is no spin that says this place wasn't declining prior to Oct '15.



The trend is evident, but if you add the gear threads you can optimistically think that there is valid activity here. 

If you look real hard, it was erdman41's fault originally for trying to sell a Backspin here. :mg:

Sonny, please look at X-Force Girl's credentials. You can see she is/was active in Coach's Corner. So is/was sub - his credentials are in his avatar. Mike66 has credentials too. It seems a lot of history has been lost from that forum or it just doesn't display properly.
You folks ran off Griv at one time too.

I'm not sure why a Beginner's forum is necessary. You join a local club. You shoot Leagues. You travel to the next club and shoot against them. 
You shoot Regions. Then you shoot State. If you're still hangin' in and want to get better, then start asking good questions here.

Like a wise man once told me, " You get what you give."

Just where is dua lam pa anyway?


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Rick! said:


> Here is some data, as an engineer, anecdotes don't hold much water with me. The gear forum started in October 2015 but gear threads were being moved well before then. There is no spin that says this place wasn't declining prior to Oct '15.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post. Best one here.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Rick! said:


> Like a wise man once told me, " You get what you give."
> 
> Just where is dua lam pa anyway?


I always like the phrase "Garbage in = garbage out"

dua lam pa? No comment.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I guess there really is no perfect solution.
I'll just keep trying to help those who want it no matter where I find their posts.
I have tried to help a few but as soon as a certain couple of "experts" jump in with their old photos and dvd's for sale, I usually fade away and move on to another area.
I can't and won't compete with them and their vast knowledge.
Unless the person somehow ends up in my shop looking for answers. So confused by the internet knowledge they have received.
Then I can get a word in and maybe offer some real world help.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

XForce Girl said:


> I guess there really is no perfect solution.
> I'll just keep trying to help those who want it no matter where I find their posts.
> I have tried to help a few but as soon as a certain couple of "experts" jump in with their old photos and dvd's for sale, I usually fade away and move on to another area.
> I can't and won't compete with them and their vast knowledge.
> ...


I have no doubt it happens exactly as described sometimes, but it's also that true that many receive exactly what they need to improve their shooting from online sources, including help that comes from people with no official certifications or credentials.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

True,
As long as they have a positive experience and get into Archery and enjoy it.
That's all that really matters.

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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me there were two major wars fought, the first one I was a newby and I watched it happen and I probably posted a few times but mainly watched. The second time I was involved 100%, sure they sucked but in the end I think we came out on top and the people that believe in a variety of methods won. The guys that were closed minded and had only one method that most of the time they couldn't explain or teach lost.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Right now things are way different than they were a few years ago, back then if you did a search on youtube for hinge shooting or back tension it was absolutely impossible to find any videos that were even remotely good. To my knowledge the only video worth watching was the griv video on yielding and it is very short and limited to subject matter but it was the only one out there. 

Secondly there was little to no information here on archery talk in written form, Phrases such as "You need to shoot back tension" were thrown out at people but there was no instruction written at all to follow and the few threads that had some little tid bit in the thread was lost as soon as it scrolled off the front page. 

I know for me I used to spend hours per day typing out responses to guys in the threads where I would cover the questions he asked and it would sometimes be a chapter worth of stuff. After doing this hundreds of times I got sick of typing the same thing over and over. 

That is when I started typing them and sending myself pm's so that I could forward them to the guy in pm's or I would copy and paste them into the thread. To me this was the best time for me on archery talk because I worked with hundreds and hundreds of people over the couple years that I did this method.

Then I decided to collect all of my articles and and group them together into one big collection, this choice was a double edge sword. Why? Because it is now so easy to direct a person to them and that person once they get there has the ultimate collection of my stuff that is organized and ready to go. But the problem is that I no longer copy and past them into the threads as much anymore and my time is spent mentioning that the information exists and you just have to go there and read it. 

I think I am going to start copying and pasting more as I work in threads, to me this was probably the best way to work with a person and then if they want to go see my entire collection they can but the important thing is that they need to see the specific info that they were asking about right now in that thread.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I really have been thinking about how I present myself to people a lot lately, I know a couple years ago when I was just forwarding about 10 or so different pm's of my articles to guys it was taking me about 3 hours each morning to get it done and then by lunch time I could go into the threads and actually participate. Now with all of my articles in a collection it has eliminated that huge job each morning. But, I do think that one thing I have kind of lost is catching guys that just lurk and watch a thread. Back when I was copying and pasting articles into the threads that I was forwarding to people I had way more guys not in the thread contact me with questions and requests.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I just re-read the 2014 thread titled Defining Target Archery. It's a bit disappointing that we're essentially having that exact same debate again, just with (mostly) different people. When I look at the names of those that no longer participate here, there doesn't seem to be a clear pattern of whether those members that left generally agreed with the direction the forum went, or not. The take-away from that is that I don't think either side can claim the other is responsible for "running-off" x-amount of users (or a particular member).


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The more I think about it I don't think most of the guys got ran off. I think it is more of a they have stated their position hundreds of times and I am sick of doing it anymore.

There will be a few people like me that enjoy doing it thousands and thousands of times. I am a stinking classroom math teacher in public schools, I have taught how to find common denominators thousands of times and I would love to do it another thousand times. Yeah, I am that pathetic. In all reality I am not pathetic, I just enjoy working with people one on one and I also enjoy debating on how to do things. 

In my profession here in school I have the same issues with some of the math teachers here. Some of them only teach each type of problem one way and if you do not do it their way you are a idiot and if a kid does the problem differently and even shows work the kid gets it counted wrong. I have always taught many ways to do each problem and I do have my favorites but I make sure to know how to do each of them so I can present them to a kid that may need a different way to do it. 

In all reality with the pro shooters I think the reason they dont come here is because they can't, the main reason those guys are pro shooters is because they have a pro mentality. To say the pro mentality to be on top is a special thing is a understatement. Tiger Woods is to me the best example ever in recent history. Tiger was so freaking strong and unstoppable he simply smoked the pro golf circuit for years and did things that simply shouldn't happen. Now he is done, he has lost the pro mentality that he had and he has allowed demons to take over between his ears and we may not ever see him at the top again. 

Our pro shooters are the same, they have something between their ears that allows them to show up and do things and make a living and coming here to archery talk and debating or discussing those things is a huge risk. If I was one of the top pro shooters I would like to think I could still come here and do what I do and help people and debate but in all reality I might not because it is so fragile.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

IMO, the following posts in that topic are particularly relevant, and everyone interested in the future success of this forum should read them with an open mind. (actually everyone should read everything with an open mind)


post #99 (sharkred7)
post #104 (N7709K)
post # 106 (Praeger)


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

duc said:


> The mental aspect of the game of archery is in my opinion far more a relevant to Intermediate and Advanced shooter then any discussion on equipment and how to use it. So is the mental discipline of TRAINING.


Not saying that I disagree with you, but you can't necessarily separate the two.

As evidence, I refer to Braden's recent world record with his old setup...confidence in your equipment builds confidence in the mental game.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Looking back at the "defining target archery thread" is indeed telling (that's why it is a sticky).

There were some who gave well thought out input, others that shunned the concept of this forum in general.
Some contradicted themselves quite a bit on the amount of moderation the forum should get, then got attitude when one of their opinions wasn't chosen for the group.
We have had great posts, and great debates.
SOME took it too far. They either left, or were removed (temporarily). Some came back, Some did not.
Some that left were indeed knowledgeable... if not tactful.

We get what we put in it.
Going by the history, and current sentiment, we will try moving from the self moderation. Even though it was a pillar that this was built upon, clearly some have issue with that, and some weren't as polite as they could have been. Others just took it the wrong way.
In any case, I'll be modding more actively.

Waiting on confirmation of the name change, with it some minor changes.
A little more relaxed on gear topic scrutiny, a little more relaxed on "beginner" topics.
A little more moderation of off topic, insults, and bullying.

Will these changes make/break the forum? No, possibly make for slight improvements? Maybe.

What IS needed to make it thrive here?
Knowledgeable archers, with tact, and the ability to debate without getting overly emotional.

Knowledgable archers that can't take being questioned? That can't reply without insulting people? No. No matter your knowledge level, if you can't be in a discussion, talking WITH people instead of at them, your not going to be happy here.
That's too bad, but I won't stifle open discussion.

This forum is the sum of those who use it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> Not saying that I disagree with you, but you can't necessarily separate the two.
> 
> As evidence, I refer to Braden's recent world record with his old setup...confidence in your equipment builds confidence in the mental game.


What came first, the chicken or the egg? I tend to look at it differently. Confidence in yourself more than equipment. When you have supreme confidence in yourself equipment doesn't matter, you will overcome any shortfalls you think you have in equipment. I think far to much is placed on equipment and not nearly as much on what goes on between the ears.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

duc said:


> What came first, the chicken or the egg? I tend to look at it differently. Confidence in yourself more than equipment. When you have supreme confidence in yourself equipment doesn't matter, you will overcome any shortfalls you think you have in equipment. I think far to much is placed on equipment and not nearly as much on what goes on between the ears.


Depends on the individual. How many are hung up on tuning? Confidence can be a very fragile thing in many and simple things can effect it, whether real or imagined.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rick! said:


> Sonny, please look at X-Force Girl's credentials. You can see she is/was active in Coach's Corner. So is/was sub - his credentials are in his avatar. Mike66 has credentials too. It seems a lot of history has been lost from that forum or it just doesn't display properly.
> You folks ran off Griv at one time too.


I have followed X-Force Girl from to time to time, but in Coaches' Corner the threads go on like here and searching is real pain. As for Griv, he was run off long before I joined AT, at least to my knowledge. Right thread, right issues, I do give of his posts from General Archery Information.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nestly said:


> Agree, post count should not be considered when evaluating the knowledge of a user, or the merit of their post. Same is true for pictures of targets with arrow holes in them.





carlosii said:


> You talkin' about Sonny?
> 
> LOL





nestly said:


> Agree, post count should not be considered when evaluating the knowledge of a user, or the merit of their post. Same is true for pictures of targets with arrow holes in them.


 I never knew how many posts I had until someone mentioned earlier this year, but for sure I'm well below the 60,000+ and 70,000+ others have. I gave of my post count could be cut considerably if removing agreeing, funning, endless prattle and repeats (I'll bet other's posts could be cut also).
Of pictures I gave of most taken at the archery shop. And most all my pictures came sometime after 2006 and starting more in the summer of 2008, not 20 years old as some told of. I really caught the dickens when I stated in some reply that a picture is just that, a picture and any one can make up one. As for shot up targets, I know where that "string jumping" X ring is supposed to be. No one has to believe any picture I post or anything I post.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Depends on the individual. How many are hung up on tuning? Confidence can be a very fragile thing in many and simple things can effect it, whether real or imagined.


True. Some on AT seem to have OCD big time.... Me, I have OCD, but then I'm Old, Cranky and some times Dangerous


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> True. Some on AT seem to have OCD big time.... Me, I have OCD, but then I'm Old, Cranky and some times Dangerous


What some others call OCD, I call paying attention to detail. [emoji1] 

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Request has been submitted to admin.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

There's a thread in General, http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4378633&page=3, that gives a hint as to what target archers seem to need to talk about. 3 pages and only one post about tuning.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

duc said:


> There's a thread in General, http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4378633&page=3, that gives a hint as to what target archers seem to need to talk about. 3 pages and only one post about tuning.


The title is "_What *1 thing* has improved your shooting the most_?", I don't think anyone here would be surprised that tuning doesn't top the list... that doesn't mean bow setup and/or tuning isn't on the list of things that contribute to better shooting.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nestly said:


> The title is "_What *1 thing* has improved your shooting the most_?", I don't think anyone here would be surprised that tuning doesn't top the list... that doesn't mean bow setup and/or tuning isn't on the list of things that contribute to better shooting.


If you said bow tuning contributes to better confidence that results in better shooting I would agree. I would think a good set of matched arrows would contribute more to good shooting than fine tuning.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> If you said bow tuning contributes to better confidence that results in better shooting I would agree. I would think a good set of matched arrows would contribute more to good shooting than fine tuning.


Instead of spitting hairs about what may and my not contribute "more" to improvement, can't we all just accept that there's more than one factor involved in shooting well, and the "most" important" to one person may not necessarily be the "most" important to another?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

duc said:


> There's a thread in General, http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4378633&page=3, that gives a hint as to what target archers seem to need to talk about. 3 pages and only one post about tuning.


I think that is a perfect example of what archers in general need to talk about.

Switching to a hinge, getting a coach, form, and practice were some of the biggest.

Of course those are valid answers, but I think we are going a few more steps down the road.

Sure, switching to a hinge many years ago improved my shooting (literally saved my shooting) but target panic had eroded my shooting to a point that I was very ready to quit.
Learning a better firing engine is what got my shooting to "better than ever" status.
Getting a coach is a great idea.... provided you can find one you can work with and afford. Baring that. I have gotten great advice right here.
Learning "proper" form was a big thing. Fine tuning small details here was key to "next step" advancement.
Practice? Not exactly. I used to practice a lot. I practiced shooting with horrible form, punching the trigger on my Concho style release. Again, to the point of quitting the sport. No, practice did not help. Practicing better technique absolutely helped.

Point? 
In general, archers may wish to try shooting a hinge.
Competitive target archers are more likely to work on finding the best firing engine that works with them.
Archers may wish to practice more.
CT archers are more likely want to look at developing skills through certain drills instead of just flinging a hundred arrows down the range.
Archers may wish to improve their form, learn what is "good" form.
CT archers may want to look at how DL can effect your firing technique, especially when shooting steep uphill and downhill shots or how matching their grip to the bow will effect how they set up their stabilizers.
Archers may want to find a coach to teach them how to shoot well.
CT archers may want to find a coach to help them break through the plateau they have hit, and prepare for the big tournaments coming up.

Heck, even looking at tuning, in general some archers may want to shoot "bullet holes" or get their broad heads to hit with their field points.
CT archers are more likely interested in tuning their bow to help achieve a better float or hold. Or how the nodes of an arrow being launched works with the spring rate of a blade rest.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

EPLC said:


> If you said bow tuning contributes to better confidence that results in better shooting I would agree. I would think a good set of matched arrows would contribute more to good shooting than fine tuning.


Why not both?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nestly said:


> Instead of spitting hairs about what may and my not contribute "more" to improvement, can't we all just accept that there's more than one factor involved in shooting well, and the "most" important" to one person may not necessarily be the "most" important to another?


Agreed, many factors contribute to shooting well... with confidence being right up there with the best...



nochance said:


> Why not both?


Because, based on my machine testing, fine tuning doesn't produce better scores or groups. That said, if fine tuning produces confidence, whether real or imagined, it will produce better scores and groups. Unfortunately, like that new car smell, it doesn't last for long.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

duc said:


> There's a thread in General, http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4378633&page=3, that gives a hint as to what target archers seem to need to talk about. 3 pages and only one post about tuning.


If relating of ontarget7 you should read that again. It was past tuning that he refers of...He didn't talk about tuning....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

With manipulation big with hinges, doesn't make you wonder why some can't succeed with a index release? Manipulation is after all manipulation. Tim Gillingham uses a index release. In the note thread above ontarget7 states he does well with all releases, but most consistent with his index release right to he has just about sold all his thumb releases and hinges.

I have done as well with a index release as I have with any thumb release...maybe better. I was more or less pressured to go with a thumb release and then one coach said he would take me on, but advised against my index release. Now, here I am screwing with a hinge and doing well or least have learned it to the point I'm having fun, but doubtful I'll be any better with one. Still, manipulating the hinge has got me past whatever "gear slippage" in my shoulder...or maybe my scapula as it was put back together after the accident...


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

My guess for why more aren't as successful with a trigger, is that even with manipulating the hinge, the feedback is much more vague.
Punching a trigger is seemingly much more natural than it is on a hinge.



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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> If relating of ontarget7 you should read that again. It was past tuning that he refers of...He didn't talk about tuning....


Im still amazed as to why some feel tuning is irrelevant. I can assure you ( not referring to you Sonny, just in general ), top shooters take their tuning seriously. 

It's just tuning is easier than working on self and the reason you see biggest gains in other areas that are usually self related. 

Hinge releases are big for some since it forces them to focus on form. Thus seeing bigger gains

If you already have solid form down, you can literally activate all releases in a very similar manner with very little manipulation to activate it


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Nice one and nice explanation, ontarget7


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

A lot of people have bigger issues punching a trigger because our index fingers are the most sensitive. With a hinge you're using the hand and spreading out movement through our other fingers so it slows things down some. 

Our thumbs are the same way, although not as sensitive, as the index finger. 

For someone with the mental strength and discipline to activate the shot correctly, a thumb and index release can be a great tool.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I do good with a hinge....when I remember to take my thumb off the pulling post :embara: 10 years with a thumb release...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> A lot of people have bigger issues punching a trigger because our index fingers are the most sensitive. With a hinge you're using the hand and spreading out movement through our other fingers so it slows things down some.
> 
> Our thumbs are the same way, although not as sensitive, as the index finger.
> 
> For someone with the mental strength and discipline to activate the shot correctly, a thumb and index release can be a great tool.


The single biggest issue you see with an index finger release is they use the tip of their finger. 

When you incorporate a index finger properly you will want it sitting on the second crease of your finger. 

You will be less likely to punch and you can then begin to learn how to execute the shot with far less movement to activate it. 


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

^^^ Yes, second crease. Don't place index finger on trigger until you're damned ready.


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## bsp5019 (Oct 1, 2007)

ontarget7 said:


> The single biggest issue you see with an index finger release is they use the tip of their finger.
> 
> When you incorporate a index finger properly you will want it sitting on the second crease of your finger.
> 
> ...


This.


I have messed around for years with hinges (mostly) and thumb releases. Trying 100's of different set ups. Ive shot some really good scores being a valley sitter with a hinge, but over time I developed TP. 

So, from here I found back tension preload. It has helped me a ton, but I still just quite could not get a hinge set up to where I truly fell in love with it. This is why I have, over the past 8 months, stuck with my truball center x index release, Using the above method, and incorporating in BT preload; my shooting has really taken off to levels I never reached before. 

To me it's about finding what works for YOU. Not what you see others doing. I always though, "well the pro's mainly use hinges and thumbers, so that's what I have to use."......I was soooo wrong.


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## Jollyarcher (Feb 8, 2010)

tagged


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Note changes to forum:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4436017


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