# 2005 BowTech bows.."official" sneek peek



## sbegno

I don't know if it is just me, burt i am olny getting the image of the Defender. THe other two ar no coming through. Can they be re-posted please?

Steve


----------



## sbegno

Oops, I meant the Constitution is the only picture showing up.

Steve


----------



## bowsmith

The pictures aren't showing up for some reason. If you want to e-mail them to me I can host the pictures and either post the ubb code or send you the addresses for the pictures. patrick(at)cookssportland.com Good Luck and Safe Shootin'.


----------



## pro38_shooter

Letstry it again...

the Allegiance

33 3/4 ATA
7 Brace


----------



## pro38_shooter

and the Defender

31 3/8 ATA
7 1/2 Brace


----------



## pro38_shooter

More to come tommorrow..................................


----------



## ruddbow

*darn...*

......I don't need another bow. Anxious to get one in my hands. Thank you for the pics. How bout some close-ups?


----------



## 500 fps

I will take one Constitution and one Allegiance please!

Thanks for the pics Todd.


----------



## Jerry/NJ

pro38_shooter said:


> *and the Defender
> 
> 31 3/8 ATA
> 7 1/2 Brace *


I have to shoot this bad boy !!!


----------



## Milhouse

Does anyone know what the 37" bow is called? Draw lengths available? I need a 31" draw, am keeping my fingers crossed that they will not stop at 30", like on alot of bows.


----------



## MrSinister

If they are going to call that anything but a hybrid cam I would have to see how it is strung up cause she looks like a hybrid cam configuration to me.


----------



## LX_Shooter

Is this the Equalizer system????


----------



## xTravisx

Milhouse said:


> *Does anyone know what the 37" bow is called? Draw lengths available? I need a 31" draw, am keeping my fingers crossed that they will not stop at 30", like on alot of bows. *


I believe it is called "Old Glory"


----------



## xTravisx

biggame said:


> *If they are going to call that anything but a hybrid cam I would have to see how it is strung up cause she looks like a hybrid cam configuration to me. *



Look closely

I believe the main difference is that this system does not have a split buss.


----------



## pro38_shooter

Biggame....

notice no split harness, and two cables, not one?????

No hybrids here!

37 " is the Old Glory, Pic will come tommorrow


----------



## pro38_shooter

Biggame,

No Hybrids here!

Notice no split Harness and Two cables, not one!
37" is the Old Glory, pics will come tommorrow.


----------



## scottland

Any idea on pricing? Specifically the Allegiance, i'm guessing around $680?


----------



## MrSinister

Thanks guys. No I don't see exactly since the photos are small. You guys have me at a disadvantage but I can visualize what you are saying and that would definately be a little different. I will enjoy looking at the new system. I am sure it will be quite the buzz. Nothing attaching to the limbs well that is sure different.


----------



## Jbird

*Constitution*

That is one butt ugly bow but it may be a great shooter.
Jbird


----------



## x-ring-1

*Well I guess...*

That I will be shooting the long axle to axle bow for indoor target spots!!! What colors do they come in?


----------



## p-maannn

when will they be shipping my defender


----------



## zbow18

That defender looks awesome. Any idea what kind of IBO it will have?


----------



## La Crosse

> If they are going to call that anything but a hybrid cam I would have to see how it is strung up cause she looks like a hybrid cam configuration to me.


Actually, the Equalizer is basically a synchronized dual cam. But while it might look something like a cam 1/2 or plain dually at first glance, it operates on a very different set of principles. Besides providing synchronization to dual cams, these different principles lift a lot of constraints previously thought to be innate to cam design. It allows the design engineer much more ability to shape the force draw curve while minimizing cam rotation, to easily obtain high letoff, to minimize limb tip movement, to obtain maximum efficiency, and on and on.

In fact, the core of what makes the Equalizer capable of all this can also be readily applied to a cam 1/2 system and a single cam system, and such designs are covered in the patent application. In my mind, however, the version that you see in the pics is the best way to do it.

Of course, my opinion might be a little biased.


----------



## Milhouse

*Draw Lengths???*

Question for La Crosse. Will the Old Glory be available in a 31" draw? My dealer had absolutely no idea about the new bows. Thanks, Milhouse


----------



## Milhouse

*Pro 38*

Pro 38, you sound like you could answer my question as well.


----------



## 27G

Can you get a high wrist grip on the constituion?


----------



## p-maannn

the simple question we all want to know is when can we buy them


----------



## Carl

*Equalizer Cams?*

What percentage is the letoff on the new equalizer cams? And what kind of a valley is there. Is the valley real short? like the duallys?


----------



## bohntr

Draw stops on each cam. A slightly altered Infinity cam top and bottom,i get it and I like it.
I want the Constitution for target and 3D.
what kind of draw force curve are we looking at Todd? Aggressive single cam feel or smooth Dually?


----------



## Nino

I have a question... What about limb tip and cam lean since there is no yoke to balance this system? Isn't there gona be a pretty heavy load on one side of the bow and not as much on the other?


----------



## bohntr

much of any cam lean comes from the yoke being attached to the outside of the limb and this will cause more pulling on the cable guard side of the limb. If the cable attaches at the axle close to the cam most of the cam lean should be eliminated.


----------



## x-ring-1

*Yeah but...*

what color do they come in?


----------



## scottland

*Re: Yeah but...*



x-ring-1 said:


> *what color do they come in? *


even for 3d, why would you want anything but camo


----------



## wannabee

*sneak peak*

nov 1 has come and gone and alas no new website,but we got a couple of peaks today


----------



## walks with a gi

Ohhhh,, this is bad... Bad for my check book I think my Justice is going to get a little playmate named Defender


----------



## walks with a gi

Hey!!!! I just had a thought,,, anyone want to buy a very nice bow press for your new Constitution????


----------



## Daemonspeeding

IBO speeds?


----------



## Trushot_archer

> There is a 37.5" 7.25"brace clocked at 323fps
> There is a 33.75 7" brace at 328fps
> There is a 40.25" 8.25"brace at 308fps (it has a 30" riser)
> There is a 31.875" 7.5" brace at 313fps


Looks like 1 is the Old Glory
2nd the Allegiance
3rd teh Constitution
and the last one is the Defender.

Hmmmm Old Glory or Allegiance, Old Glory or Allegiance??

I have some thinking to do. When can I shoot them?!


----------



## Joe C.

I want an Old Glory. You are so cruel for holding back on that pic What is the let off % on the equalizer cams? What about drawlength adjustments?


----------



## TeneX

*Finally!*

constitution definatly looks like a it will be a great target bow!
now like many others have said....wut colours??

oh and that equalizer cam looks pretty darn cool.....and if it comes anywhere near wut they say it will for forgiveness it sounds like it will be the new cam that everyone wants

COLOURS?????

Peace
Allan


----------



## p-maannn

has anyone been to this bowtech site 


http://www.bowtecharchery.com/bows/bows2.html


----------



## PABowhntr

Draw length man? Tell me about draw length. Please tell me that at least one of the short bows goes up to 31 inches.


----------



## p-maannn

PABowhntr said:


> *Draw length man? Tell me about draw length. Please tell me that at least one of the short bows goes up to 31 inches.    *


how tall are you


----------



## Sagittarius

Frank,

You know, us 31" draw shooters never get what we want.  
Hey, what's wrong with Bowtechbbs ?
Can't log on and it's dead slow when I can.  


Sag.


----------



## Rangeball

Sagittarius said:


> *Hey, what's wrong with Bowtechbbs ?
> Can't log on and it's dead slow when I can.
> 
> 
> Sag. *


Sag, it's much better today. I think the extra bandwidth finally came through.


----------



## steph

*Re: Yeah but...*



x-ring-1 said:


> *what color do they come in? *


I heard they will come in the same anodized target colors as last year (blue marble, red marble and black marble) and that there will be a new dipped color (I think it's called hydrographic something...not sure what it will look like).


----------



## pro38_shooter

Hello again!
Constitution will go to 31"
equalizer will have a Draw stop with adj letoff 80% to 65%
Draw feels as smooth as the Freedom Cam, draw cycle does not have the "drop-off" feel into the valley. It's one smooth drawing and really nice holding system.

Here is your next update:

Old Glory

37 1/2 ATA
7 1/4 Brace


----------



## pro38_shooter

Independance

Freedom Cam 5"

37 5/8 ATA
7 1/2 Brace


----------



## pro38_shooter

The NEW Tomkat Package

32 1/2 ATA
8 1/4 Brace

and 10 fps faster!


----------



## Fletch Helical

Does anyone know besides the Equalizer and freedom cams, if Bowtech is going to make their original dually & infinity cam systems still available? Or are they going to do what Hoyt did after they decided to use that Cam.5 system and just make up your mind for you on what cam you're going to shoot? Oh one more question did they VFT all the new models?


----------



## francis

does anyone know what the draw length adjustability will be on the equalizer cams?

will it be in 1/2 inch increments or better?

thats what I like about the infinity cam, best adjustability out there.


----------



## jmac_or

I have to agree, that Constitution is an ugly bow, but probably a good shooter. Lines are just plain off on that bow, but that may just be me. That being said, Old Glory looks like I may need to start sweet talking the wife now....

JMAC


----------



## BowTech Dave

*Speeds*

Todd,

Stuff should be on the way today. I love the new cam system. I can't wait to give it a test run! I will be calling you soon

What are the speeds on the 3 bows above? What is the purpose of the 5" idler on the Independance? 

Dave


----------



## Jerry/NJ

Jerry/NJ said:


> *I have to shoot this bad boy !!!
> *


And this one too.....the Allegiance
I have a feeling this one will be mine......


----------



## Rangeball

Does the new Equalizer cam system offer straight and level nock travel?

Seems to be implied, but haven't seen it addressed specifically...


----------



## pro38_shooter

Here are your speed ratings:

Equalizer system

Allegiance 322- 328
Constitution 300-308
Defender 305-313
Old Glory 315-323

Freedom Cam

Independence 290-298
Liberty 296-308
Justice 290-298
PBR 297-305

Infinity Cam

Mighty Mite 310-318
Patriot 318-326
Tomkat package 300-308

Dual Cam

BlackKnight Dually 342-350


Youth bows
Rascal Cam

Miranda 267-275
Rascal 246-254


----------



## Jerry/NJ

PABowhntr said:


> *Draw length man? Tell me about draw length. Please tell me that at least one of the short bows goes up to 31 inches.    *


C'mon Frank, just add a 1" loop


----------



## HotLZ

Will the Old Glory go to 31"?

I just ordered a Constitution for my target bow. My dealer confirmed the anodized colors will be the same as last year, with the addition of the new dipped color. 

Sounds like no bows will ship until Dec.

Rod


----------



## steph

pro38_shooter said:


> *Here are your speed ratings:
> Miranda 267-275
> *


What is the Miranda? I notice there's no LadyHawk listed.

Do you know which, if any, of the new bows can be ordered with 40 pound limbs? Anybody know what the hydrographic marble looks like?


----------



## Sagittarius

Thanks, Rangeball !

I checked it out; it's much better. 


Sag.


----------



## PJBinMI

*new cams*

is the new cam adjustable??
or do you have to order a specific draw length?? or moduals?

Pro shooter fast is easy at 30" draw
what will speed be like on them at 28" 27.5 " ???

Not sold yet but getting there
old glory is a maybe....

PAtrick


----------



## walks with a gi

Just got off the phone with the local BowTech dealer I ordered the wife a Defender for Christmas in 60/26 inch draw  
Now,,, what do I want???


----------



## PJBinMI

What are the shipping dates?? how long to get one???

Pat.


----------



## Milhouse

*DRAW LENGTHS???*

WHY, with the obvious plethora of info some of you guys are privy to, can't anyone tell us if the Old Glory will be available in a 31" draw? Somewhat frustrating when you are teased with this crap for months, with a specific "D Day", then, no info is available.


----------



## HotLZ

From BowtechShooter on Hunting.Net

Available in 31" draw are the Constitution, Old Glory, Independence and the new TomKat will adjust to 31 1/2". 

The BlackKnight, Allegiance, Defender, Mighty Mite VFT and Patriot VFT will adjust up to 30" draw. 

The Justice VFT, Liberty VFT and Limited Edition PBR bows will adjust up to 30 1/2". 

The new Miranda draw lengths will be 22"-27" and the new Rascal will adjust from 20"-25".


----------



## Ahti

There won't be any other dual cam bows than the black knight?


----------



## deerheaven

Jerry"s quote: And this one too.....the Allegiance
I have a feeling this one will be mine......



"Ditto"


----------



## esven89

I'll take an old glory for christmas with some lightspeeds.


----------



## pdq 5oh

Ahti, the BKII will be the only dual cam bow in 05.


----------



## gungho

it looks like bowtech took their mind off speed this year kind of a disapointment I realy liked shooting at just over 300 fps with a 8 in brace hight on my 03 pat dulie have orderd a 04 pro 40 duli for 3d but dont know if I will spend the money if the perfomance is not there in canada these bows cost me over 1000 each bare bow so I will try and if the performance is not there I have to shop around as I am only allowed one bow a year ( so the bos says) they look impresive but a litle disapointed in speeds

Gung


----------



## p-maannn

pro_38 when can we buy the new bows


----------



## smokin'dually

ORDERS START NOV.1ST


----------



## zbow18

Is the new cam system going to draw as smooth as the freedom cam?


----------



## Jerry/NJ

Will the Allegiance have the same "wall" as my Ext VFT or Pat VFT?


----------



## p-maannn

if i order now when can i expect to get it in my hands


----------



## Drog

Todd-so do you know if they have the new models on display at the factory Pro Shop? I have a few days off coming and I was thinking about coming down.


----------



## StevenB

I was looking at the Pro 4- wheelie as my next bow, but what would come close to that now.

Also the Pro 40 fredom cam was an option


----------



## bowjunkie

*Some help*

The bows will be in Pro shops around the middle of December. 

The Independence is about the same specs as the Pro04 w/ freedom cam but it now has a 5" idler wheel.


----------



## jonnybow

The Miranda and the Rascal are available with 40lb limbs. the Rascal 20-30-40 and the Miranda 40-50-60

I'm being told shipping will be "mid Dec.", you can take that with as much credibility as you'd like.

I'm also being told that with the new Equalizer cam setup, the draw feels much different than we have been used to. the initial draw is heavier with the peak weight being applied right off the bat and then dropping off very smoothly. The other cam options had a gradual weight until just before the cam broke over. Might take some getting used to but the benefits are great I'm told.

The BowTech guys took mismatched limbs and installed them on an equalizer cam'd bow and grabbed an arrow from the shop, they said the bow shot bullseyes with that setup. they say it actually corrects your flaws!

I can't wait to try these bows.

Jon


----------



## Jari

Nice looking bow.

//Jari


----------



## Jerry/NJ

jonnybow said:


> *The Miranda and the Rascal are available with 40lb limbs. the Rascal 20-30-40 and the Miranda 40-50-60
> 
> I'm being told shipping will be "mid Dec.", you can take that with as much credibility as you'd like.
> 
> I'm also being told that with the new Equalizer cam setup, the draw feels much different than we have been used to. the initial draw is heavier with the peak weight being applied right off the bat and then dropping off very smoothly. The other cam options had a gradual weight until just before the cam broke over. Might take some getting used to but the benefits are great I'm told.
> 
> The BowTech guys took mismatched limbs and installed them on an equalizer cam'd bow and grabbed an arrow from the shop, they said the bow shot bullseyes with that setup. they say it actually corrects your flaws!
> 
> I can't wait to try these bows.
> 
> Jon *


Jon, let me know when you get yours in and I'll stop down.


----------



## centerx

all in all it looks pretty nice really 

However...

Is it just me or does it look like cam - lean could be a issue with this set up??

Don't really know it just looks like with eveything being loaded up on the cable guard side of the bow top and bottom that they may want to lean pretty bad


----------



## HotLZ

So are the target models going to have silver/chrome cams? I hope so.

Rod


----------



## walks with a gi

I don't think can lean will be an issue with the new Equalizer system. I haven't noticed any lean on the bottom cam on any of my Infinity or Freedom cammed bows from BowTech. There's nothing to stabilize the cam on any single cam bow really. I'll guess that the system is engineered to provide optimal "centering" of the cam system within the limb forks, whether by shimming or just stragegic machining of the cams. 
It's going on 4 different bows so I'd guess it's a non issue. I suppose there are some that can find cam lean on any system though, as slight as it may be, really bothers some shooters


----------



## pro38_shooter

Cam lean is very negligable, as walks said, due to strategic machining.


----------



## Guest

*Level nock setup, travel*

Did we get confirmation on whether the nocking point is set level or 1/8 high or low. Also, preliminary info I got was level nock travel.

Can those that have set up these bows, tested them whatever confirm either question.


----------



## centerx

I have noticed many SOLO’ s and Hybrids from all manufacturers frequently having some amount of cam-lean. Of course you could tune the lean out of the “idler” … The first ( and only ) thing I noticed about this system is perhaps you would have the “problem” top and bottom now ??

Of course with this system it looks like it should be an equal amount of lean if any occurs at all. Personally I only cared how they shoot myself but was curious if that might be the only “flaw” in the system.

I would hope that the string would be centered in the limb forks. I can’t help to think that the cables would not be offset to some degree. Of course, they could be centered with the string on the outside of centerline?? Out of curiosity are they bushings or sealed bearings on these cams? 

Like I said looks good .. I can see the benefits…. How does it work better then lets say a traditional hybrid system?? Is it because the cables are controlling the cams exclusively and not one of the limbs as well?? I could see how limb deflections could be off and still have good accuracy if this is the case


----------



## rhenj

*Heavy Bows?*

Do any of these new bows go up to 100# draw weights like the Sampson did?


----------



## 2001epic

*website update*

does anyone know when bowtech is supposed to have their websight updated ? really want to take a closer look at the new tomkat...(fits my budget and looks like a performer)


----------



## pro38_shooter

I posted the specs on the independance out of the brochure draft and there was a typo on that model. 

the Independance 

ATA 40 1/4
4 3/8 brace

Same speed I listed.


----------



## doefingers

is that brace height right?????


----------



## scottland

doefingers said:


> *is that brace height right????? *


i believe it is 7 3/8


----------



## pro38_shooter

sorry about that I was typing too fast

7 3/8


----------



## pdq 5oh

centerx, since the 04s had bearings, I'd expect the 05s will, too.


----------



## Jerry/NJ

Jerry/NJ said:


> *Will the Allegiance have the same "wall" as my Ext VFT or Pat VFT? *


Anyone know?


----------



## 500 fps

I've been told by someone who has shot them that they have a very solid and similar wall as the Infinity and Freedom cams and are smooth along the lines of the Freedom. They utilize a single draw stop.


----------



## p-maannn

do the target color limbs have a carbon dip similar to the pbr model or is it just me


----------



## steph

p-maannn said:


> *do the target color limbs have a carbon dip similar to the pbr model or is it just me *


I have an '04 target LadyHawk that has carbon fiber patterned limbs and I heard that the '05 target colors will be the same (the only exception being the addition of the Hydrographic Marble colored riser).


----------



## jonnybow

Jerry, one cam will have a draw stop post which will make for a solid wall and serve as the letoff adjustment as well. This is what I'm being told by my rep at BowTech.

I've had 2 long conversations with him and the only negative thing I have issues with is that the cams are for exact draw lengths. They will be making 1" cams first and then 1/2" cams to follow. Unlike the Mathews single cams which run close to $100 a piece, these sets will be @ 1/2 that price. I'll buy a complete set of cams so that should help out folks to get them setup initially.

Looks like a great new concept that should stand the archery community on its ear!

Jon


----------



## CA_Rcher12

Kinda remind you of Matthews.


----------



## x-ring-1

*Not like Mathews*

A whole lot better!!!!


----------



## La Crosse

> Like I said looks good .. I can see the benefits…. How does it work better then lets say a traditional hybrid system?? Is it because the cables are controlling the cams exclusively and not one of the limbs as well?? I could see how limb deflections could be off and still have good accuracy if this is the case


A hybrid is really nothing more than a modified single cam bow. This setup is more like a modified dual cam bow. Unlike a single or hybrid cam bow, both cams on the Equalizer are mirror images of each other. Because both cams have identical profiles, and they rotate in perfect synchronization, nock travel can only be level. The effect of this perfect nock travel shows itself during paper tuning. You can paper tune the Equalizer, then grab a handful of differently spined arrows of different weights with different FOC's and all will shoot bullet holes (barring any big change in arrow diameter, which affects rest setup). The system doesn't much care about spine. In fact, at short distances where trajectory isn't much of an issue, all the different arrows will hit the same spot. It's kinda wierd to shoot four different arrows into the same X at twenty yards. The perfect nock travel also shows when shooting fixed blade broadheads or when shooting spots. Accuracy is phenomenal.

Also, because the cams are mirror images, they have identical dynamic response. With a single cam, one cam is balanced while the other has a mass (counterweight) spinning way out of balance. In other words, on the Equalizer, the cams' mass is the same, their center of mass is the same, the frictions and leverages at any instance in the shot sequence are the same, etc.

Another difference is that both cams are responsible for storing energy, whereas on a hybrid or single cam bow, only the lower cam has a power cable journal and there is only one power cable. On the Equalizer, there are actually four power cable journals and two power cables.

I'm going to go out on a limb (no pun intended) and predict that, in competition, records will fall with this system.

But I might be a little biased.


----------



## Travis VanDaele

Question for all you Bowtech Guys, So if the cables no longer attach to the outside of the limb forks with a split yoke cable where is the cable attaching to the cam?

Looking at the pictures it looks as though the cable attaches to either the cam or the axle similar to the way compounds were cabled before split yokes and synthetic cables were made available. If this is the case , it is no different than attaching the cable with a split yoke to the outside of the axles.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Olink

Did anyone else notice the little 'oops' on the red bow in Jari's pic?


----------



## JeffB

Yup..cables crossed above the guard. Always seems one makes it into the catalog like that every year...

Also I've noticed the old round limb bolt bezels/washers are gone.

EDIT: and there is a draw stop on both cams


----------



## jonnybow

I was told there is a draw stop on one cam only by 2 people from BowTech. If there is a drawstop on both cams, there is a possibility to get the cams out of time by pulling hard against one to make the other one hit, wouldn't it?

Just passing along what I've been told. I haven't touched one yet.

Jon


----------



## Jerry/NJ

Thanx Jon....I like that draw stop the Infinity cam has! I dont like the idea of the 1" cams first. Went thru that with my Pat Dually. Oh well, just have to wait and see.


----------



## Guest

Right now it looks like any other 2 cam bow. Can some one post a pic. of the other side of the cam so we can see how it is set up? So far I am not seeing the cams equalize anything without the cables being the same length


----------



## jonnybow

Sean, it's nothing like any other 2 cam bow. The cam's are not pulling on the opposite limb like every other 2 cam in the world, they are connected by power cables to eachother.
This system is unlike ANY OTHER.

Jon


----------



## Ryan

Rangeball said:


> *Sag, it's much better today. I think the extra bandwidth finally came through. *


Where is the Bowtech BBS? I can't find it. Thanks


----------



## 500 fps

He's talking about Huntingbbs.com

There are quite a few Bowtech fans there, so someone started sarcastically refering to it as Bowtechbbs

As popular as these new bows are going to be, we might have to start calling this place BowtechTalk.com


----------



## pro38_shooter

Basically, through machining of the cam the bowstring attaches to both cam, the cables attach to the cams on the front side on the top, then down to the back side of the power side on the bottom cam. Then the same way from bottom to top. So through design and machinig of the cams it is set up like to single cams.

Travis, the cable do not connect to the axles whatsoever. Only to the cams as described.

PS ...draw stop is only on the top cam


----------



## gungho

are the speeds going to be compairible to the dulies have a 03 pat dulie and love the speed and energy I get all with a forgiving brace hight was shooting 302 at62# 29" draw with 338gn arrow will the new cam system be close to this 
Gung


----------



## Travis VanDaele

So the cables are attached to the cam, where on the power side ?

Any pictures? Are the cams similar to the bottom cam of a hoyt cam.5?

Having the bulk of the power curve up front along with a smooth vally at the back of the power stroke will hide any timing issues, and having only one stop explains this.

Perhaps another way to skin the cat, no doubt it is going to work.

Whats next? How about a two cam, cut the mods similar to the single cam mods where there is no tail to the mod (no wall) and use a draw stop post only on one cam to make it feel in time.Hmm

At least we are getting closer to two cam bows


----------



## walks with a gi

I've been told that originally there were two draw stop modules but they found that you couldn't pull hard enough to bottom out on both draw stops,,, if one was set in a different position than the other. The cable rigging turns both cams in exactly the same rotation regardless where you pull on the string. This should make grip hand position while shooting a non issue


----------



## Predator

Is there similar down cable movement to a single cam? In other words will drop away rests still work by serving into down cable or do they not move enough?


----------



## esven89

About the 1 inch cams. Are they going to be 1inch modules or cams thatonly come in inch sizes and you only have an inch to adjust?


----------



## jonnybow

The cams are machined for specific draw length, no modules. Right now, they are machining the 1" cams and later, they will do the 1/2" cams. You'd better know your draw length before ordering!

Jon


----------



## centerx

Don’t get me wrong . I like the specs and the cam certainetly does appear to have merit and many potential positive attributes. However some of the claims are getting pretty crazy don’t you think??

“Handgrip positions no longer an issue”??…………….

Maybe as it pertains to tiller and nock travel issues but certainetly not from a torque and accuracy standpoint .

“Actually corrects your flaws”……….

was another statement made because different limb deflections were allowed to play out at the same rate resulting in good tune. Nice feature I’ll admit but how does it correct my flaws?? However, it might allow those that are not real knowledgeable about bow tuning to get better results. That’s a good thing. It also might allow the manufacturer to get away with sloppier limb tolerances. But then I guess if it does not make any difference in performance does it matter??

“System does not much care about spine”…………

Wow any arrow will work , Broad heads, Long distance Fita work. Spine no longer matters?? Or in reality does it make it more tolerant of spine allowing you be able to branch out a little farther on each range of the arrow selection charts. Bullet holes do not necessarily indicate a properly spined arrow
.
“grab a handful of differently spined arrows of different weights with different FOC's and all will shoot bullet holes (barring any big change in arrow diameter, which affects rest setup). ….. fact, at short distances where trajectory isn't much of an issue, all the different arrows will hit the same spot. It's kinda wierd to shoot four different arrows into the same X at twenty yards.”……………….. 

They may be different but they must not be signifigantly different especially on weight. I doubt the bow overcomes the law of physics as well. 

Can we just cut out the silly hype and make the accurate statement that the system may allow for a wider range of acceptable tolerance on such things as arrow spine, tiller, limb deflections, and timing?? Not bashing like I said I think it all looks real cool. But to say at nationals you can take this bow with mis matched limbs and a quiver full of substantially different arrows… Grip this bad boy anyway you want and fling away guaranteed to hit the “x” because it “actually corrects your flaws” 

Talk about the Hype


----------



## La Crosse

Travis VanDaele said:


> *Having the bulk of the power curve up front along with a smooth vally at the back of the power stroke will hide any timing issues, and having only one stop explains this.
> 
> Whats next? How about a two cam, cut the mods similar to the single cam mods where there is no tail to the mod (no wall) and use a draw stop post only on one cam to make it feel in time.Hmm
> 
> At least we are getting closer to two cam bows  *


Travis,

When you get to look at it close up (and shoot it), you'll see that their are no timing issues to hide. If you put on two draw stops and twist one cable a whole lot (more than 1/4") shorter than the other, you can get one draw stop to hit before the other. If you keep pulling real hard, you might get the other stop to touch, but you'd have to pull really hard. If you try real hard, you might find a way to screw it up, but it's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. If it hurts, don't do it.

Also, the Equalizer feels in time when you hit the valley because it is in time from brace height all the way to the back wall.


----------



## elk stalker

Is it true these won't be shipped till december? I was hoping to get one for Christmas


----------



## peterk

This is probably a stupid question. If the nock travel is perfect, can you get away from using a string loop (pickup a bit more speed)?


----------



## Guest

So far this is nothing but talk, how about a picture of the back side of the cam


----------



## 3DMan

Does anybody know the prices for the bows.


----------



## jonnybow

*Prices*

MSRP
Allegiance VFT $749
Constitution $799
Defender VFT $649
Old Glory $749

Independence $799
Justice VFT $639
Liberty VFT $729
PBR $849

Mighty Mite VFT $679
Patriot VFT $719
TomKat $499

Black Knight $749

Miranda $399
Rascal $289


----------



## nontypical

From the picture, it looks like the power cable both starts and terminates in front of the cams axle. Your single cam's power cable wraps around the back of the axle. Also, in standard two cam configurations, the power cable starts with a split yoke attached to the limbs and connects behind the axle on the opposite cam. In this new version, shortening or lengthening the cable rotates both cams in the same direction. The opposite is true in "standard" configurations. I could be wrong, but thats what it looks like to me.


----------



## walks with a gi

peterk said:


> *This is probably a stupid question. If the nock travel is perfect, can you get away from using a string loop (pickup a bit more speed)? *



I shoot all my bows without a loop,,, directly off the string with a caliper release. I've played with the loops off and on again and messed with the loop more than I've ever had to re-serve the center serving. I've never noticed a difference in accuracy,, but I'm not a world class shooter either. Still, I ruin my share of arrows and vanes/nocks when shooting at the same spot at 30 and 40 yards.


----------



## deerheaven

*walks with a gi*

You should try a gator jaw release.........Have been shooting this release for 10 years,paper tune easy,no change in draw hand...position...loops built right in the jaws


----------



## walks with a gi

Yep,,, seen them but haven't tried one. I've been shooting the Tru Fire releases for a VERY long time with an eliminator button. If I miss,,, it's not the equipment I'm a bowhunter mostly but do some 3D and other target. Just haven't seen any accuracy advantage with the loop when I shoot them. I even shoot my 31 inch ATA Justice directly off the string with a 29 inch draw,, no problems


----------



## kgb

*I Disagree on Timing*

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing, so I'll draw you what I think will happen with this cam. I disagree with La Crosse. The bow will have timing issues. Because, someone stated the string goes from the front side of the cam to the back side of the other cam... and the shooting string goes from end to end like normal... Therefore, IF one cable stretches, it will rotate the cams in opposite directions, which will actually AMPLIFY the bow being out of tune....

Per my picture, I colored each cable and each string different in order to make it easier to see how they pass from top to bottom....

I think a split harness system (for a 2 cam bow) would be more effective, because if 1 cable stretches, it only affects 1 cam and not both cams. This was already evident with the Hybrid bows... when the backside cable stretched (not the Yoke cable) it would rotate both cams slightly and in opposite directions, just like this new Bowtech....

Again, this is all just my observation... if anyone has pictures of the backside of the cam, it would certainly clear things up for us.


----------



## pro38_shooter

you are incorrect, it goes to the back of the power side of the cam, not the string side of the cam. Causing the cams to rotate in opposite directions, cams are mirror images of each other.


----------



## pro38_shooter

also in your picture you show the red cable going in different directions. 

When you pull the bow string, top cam rotates Clockwise, bottom rotates CC. If the cable on the bottom cam is on the front side, then pulls on the back of the top, top still rotates Clockwise. so cable on top cam is on the front of the top pulls on the back of the bottom, it will rotate CC.

Your diagram is definitley inaccurate.


----------



## bohntr

KGB

I think you should go over your thoughts again, because your drawing makes little sense. When you see the cam system you can then make your observation.


----------



## kgb

K,
Maybe I need to see a bow in person but my understanding was the cable goes from the front side of one cam to the back side of the other cam ????

Also,
The arrows I included were to show what will happen if the cable stretches...... I know the cable can't go in two directions at the same time... If the the cable elongates It will cause the cams to go in opposite directions.


----------



## kgb

*Correction*

OK,
I reviewed the picture again and it appears I over exaggerated my first picture... lets try this one....
It looks like the cables go from the far back side to almost touching the axel.. Both cables would be strung to pull opposite of the string... that was my first mistake... OK I get that part now...

NOW, If I have my drawing correct, I'm still not clear on how cable stretch would keep both cams in time at the same position ?

bohntr - thanks for keeping me on my toes


----------



## p-maannn

wow that explains everything 

jus messin but it just looks like u traced the bows cables and string


----------



## kgb

OK...
one last time, but just for you p-maannn.

I made a nice simple drawing of only 1 cable... IF, one cable stretches, then YES both cams will turn in the same direction, but they will turn at opposite rates because the cam tracks are of different radius'?

I still think the bow will have timing problems ?


----------



## kgb

One last clarification.....

I agree with everyone that IF the cables are of the exact same length and the cams are in time, then you will have an awesome shooting bow with perfect straight nock travel. 

However, if one cable stretchs the cams will be starting off at different positions. 

I obviousy haven't shot one yet or messed around with twisting up the cables so this is just my opinion... 

thanks for any feedback.....
KGB


----------



## Parkershooter

I don't understand why you people keep looking for the bad points of these new bowtechs as far as I am concerned they look awesome and can't wait to shoot one. I wouldn't care of there was four cams and eight cables and two strings it a BOWTECH and it will shoot and you know it will be fast!!!

Keep up the good work BowTech

Grant


----------



## p-maannn

thanks for the clarification


----------



## p-maannn

Parkershooter said:


> *I don't understand why you people keep looking for the bad points of these new bowtechs as far as I am concerned they look awesome and can't wait to shoot one. I wouldn't care of there was four cams and eight cables and two strings it a BOWTECH and it will shoot and you know it will be fast!!!
> 
> Keep up the good work BowTech
> 
> Grant *



would you buy a diamond


----------



## Parkershooter

If my distributor carries them I will be trying one, they look after bowtech and I think they said they would have Diamond also.

I don't care what kind of bow it is I like to shoot them all that way I have an opinion on what I have shot.

Now I am shooting Hoyt UltraTec, Parker 34, Ar 34 Ram .5 and have a Blade on the way (waiting for the 2005)

Hoyt for 3D and the other two for hunting.

Grant


----------



## pdq 5oh

kgb, are you sure the amount of string paid out will not be equal on both cams? It may be a smaller arc on one cam. But if the string goes farther around that smaller arc, the amount of string will be equal. That would allow both cams to rotate the same amount, as the string stretches. Which is something BowTechs strings have _not_ been prone to doing. It was said to me by someone who's seen the Equalizer cams, "It's so stupid simple how it works. Why wasn't it thought of before?".


----------



## bohntr

KGB

You need to give it a break, or you are going to have a melt down. WAIT to see the cam and the way the cables pay out, your banging your head against the wall trying to figure it out without seeing it first hand. Stop trying to disprove the product by questioning the enginering and the timing of the cams.

We have the info we all need ( brace height, ATA, Speeds, and nock travel, and price). 

I just hope the Pro shop in my area put in their order for some bows. HINT HINT Jay>


----------



## walks with a gi

Yea  Just wait and see is all we can do until BowTech starts shipping them. I'll take what they say as the truth because BOWTECH DELIVERS!!!!  

And yes,,, I'd buy a Diamond They are great looking bows, built by the same people that have been building them for years (and I'll bet they will be VERY busy from now on)


----------



## La Crosse

kgb,

Your diagram is incorrect. That is not how the Equalizer is rigged.


----------



## gungho

I was woundering how the speeds compair to the dulies love my pat dulie and have ordered a pro 40 dulie here in one week cant wait but would like to know if the new system is going to be as fast only have a 29" draw so I never get IBO speed but love the speed I get out of my pat dulie just woundering if they are going to be close

Gung


----------



## pdq 5oh

gungho, the Old Glory will most closely resemble the P40 Dually in ATA and brace height. It will be about 10 fps slower, IBO.


----------



## gungho

so would this mean that I would be shooting at less than 300fps with the new cam system since I only have a 29" draw lenth ? 
for 3d I shoot about 5.5 gn per pound dont want to get to light when shooting a bow that cost over $1000 dollars 

Gung


----------



## pdq 5oh

My P40 Dually at 58#, 29", shoots a 306 gr arrow at 311. I think the Old Glorys at similar specs will be right around 300.


----------



## gungho

thans for the info can't wait for my new bow to get here hope it performes as well as my pat dulie if I could get 311 at 58# would be extremly happy for 3d. One more weeek before it gets here already have all my accesories waiting for the bow 3d season starts soon 

Gung


----------



## francisco

*miranda BowTech*

About Miranda, do you have any info?

thanks
Frank


----------



## jonnybow

Hey Gungho, don't you guys in Canada play by the 280fps speedlimit for 3D?
Maybe that speed is in Canadien or something, kinda like the Canadian dollar only worth $.60???  

Jon


----------



## gungho

every thing in my area is under IBO ruser so as long as I stay at 5 gn \pound but like to shoot a little more than that any how dont want to risk damageing my bow .

Gung


----------



## steph

*Re: miranda BowTech*



francisco said:


> *About Miranda, do you have any info?
> 
> thanks
> Frank *


Try doing a search for Miranda. There are two recent threads that contain info and a picture. It's a nice looking bow!


----------



## pro38_shooter

KGB,

you definately needto see the set-up, your dragram are still not quite correct.

It will all be clear when you see it.


----------



## SPECTRE

Old Glory will be taking some New Fame......


----------



## alwinearcher

quote: (I don't understand why you people keep looking for the bad points of these new bowtechs as far as I am concerned they look awesome and can't wait to shoot one. I wouldn't care of there was four cams and eight cables and two strings it a BOWTECH and it will shoot and you know it will be fast!!!

Keep up the good work BowTech

Grant): unquote

Like sheep being lead to the slaughter!


----------



## walks with a gi

Like sheep being lead to the slaughter!


__________________

Not really It's just what happens when a new bow with a revolutionary cam system comes out Can't wait to get the Defender for the wife I'm thinking I'll be waiving Old Glory this spring


----------



## gungho

and jon bow give it another month and the doller will be equeal didnt here this morning but has been around .83 

Gung


----------



## alwinearcher

w w a g,
Im not bashing at all,
Im going to be checking out this new cam as soon as i get a chance, and you never know, i might be shouting old glory soon!
Im just saying wait till you get your hands on it before you depend it to the death.
in the words of a great man.

I could take a dumb in a box and write gaurenteed on it,
but all you would have it a garenteed piece of crap


----------



## jonnybow

gungho, I have been watching the Canadian dollar climb! It's like you know I'm coming up there in 2 weeks or something. At least I already paid for most of the trip when the dollar was at .70

I'll be at Anticosti Island for the week of Thanksgiving, can't wait!

Jon


----------



## gungho

have a good trip I would like to see it at par some of you guys complain about paying 600+ for a bow I get to pay 1000+ for the same bow then have to come up with a reason to jusify a new one each year to the wife we should start a new thread on excuses to tell our wives on why we need new bows .

Gung


----------



## pdq 5oh

alwinearcher:


> Im just saying wait till you get your hands on it before you depend it to the death.


By the same token, don't run it down "til you get your hands on it". It has happened the past few years. BowTech shakes things up a bit, and the sheep can't handle it. Truly revolutionary, not just innovative.


----------



## bowmanhunter

gungho said:


> *have a good trip I would like to see it at par some of you guys complain about paying 600+ for a bow I get to pay 1000+ for the same bow then have to come up with a reason to jusify a new one each year to the wife we should start a new thread on excuses to tell our wives on why we need new bows .
> 
> Gung *


I could bring you one up for the awesome bear hunting you have in your area   No kidding


----------



## Techy

Granted I have to see these new bows but my mind is just about made up already. I need that alliegence.


----------



## alwinearcher

i agree, and i havent run it down at all, Im excited to check it out,
But i just know I have had my share of problems with bowtech, So sorry if i havent jumped on the band wagon yet.


----------



## bowmanhunter

alwinearcher said:


> *i agree, and i havent run it down at all, Im excited to check it out,
> But i just know I have had my share of problems with bowtech, So sorry if i havent jumped on the band wagon yet. *


Just curious, what type of problems have you had???Thanks.

DJ


----------



## alwinearcher

well
I never had any problems with my patriot i dont think,
But my pro 40 dually gave me nothing but problems, And none of the guys i had work on it could fix it, I was never able to get it in perfect time, and I had problems with cam lean.
and i had a few issues with service and what not, but im not going to go into that,
I used to be a big bowtech fan actually my name used to be "bowtechawesome"


----------



## Bowtech Rocks

*Todd, send me one of everything !!*

Wait, I better clear it with the boss first. I am looking forward to shooting the new cam system in indoor leagues this year!! I think you may have just found a way to get me shooting something besides a Patriot !!
I have heard the advertised speeds will be WITH the string silencers installed in 2005? Can you confirm or deny that? 

Thanks
Kent


----------



## Jerry/NJ

bowmanhunter said:


> *I could bring you one up for the awesome bear hunting you have in your area   No kidding *


I would volunteer to help


----------



## jonnybow

BowTech Rocks, yes the speeds advertised for the new cammed bows are with string silencers on. This was told to me by my rep at the factory.

Jon


----------



## bowjunkie

*alwinearcher*

Hey I didn't see where you had trouble. Sorry about that. Do you still own the Bow? If so I know I can help with the bow. It is a little trickey sometimes and I have a laser to set the lean. Check with Hood, I setup his pro40 dually and had it shooting like a dream. If you ever need help just let me know. Junkiw


----------



## alwinearcher

no i sold it!


----------



## USNarcher

Matt what shop were you going to? There aren't a whole lot of Bowtech dealers in Washington. Not looking to thrash anyone, just curious.


----------



## bowmanhunter

Don't hold your breath on the 05's(LOL) My dealer said it MAY be the first of the year before they even begin shipping! The PBR's will ship in the next 2 weeks


----------



## walks with a gi

Anyonw know when the new catalogs will be at the dealers???


----------



## bowmanhunter

walks with a gi said:


> *Anyonw know when the new catalogs will be at the dealers??? *



I was told around MARCH!!!!!No i'm not kidding.Doesn't make sense


----------



## francisco

*wrong date*

I think you must be joking..
haha March ha ha    
I am receiving my diamond catalogue next week in my shop (im in Europe!)
They sent to me last Monday.
And in next weeks they will send Bowtech Catalogue I believe.

Frank


----------



## bowmanhunter

Well, when you get your Bowtech catalogs in let me know. I'll send you money for one!!!!!


----------



## francisco

Catalogs are Free.
Pretty sure you will get one at free cost..
at your local pro shop soon in USA


----------



## Jari

While you wate for the catalog, i have put a mix together.


----------



## walks with a gi

Nice looking combination Jari!!! I think I'll send that pic to BowTech and ask if it would be possible to do that type of anodizing


----------



## BowTech_Shooter

bowmanhunter said:


> *I was told around MARCH!!!!!No i'm not kidding.Doesn't make sense *




DJ,

I'm not sure where you heard that one but the 2005 Diamond catalogs are ready now and the 2005 BowTech catalogs are set to be back from the printers tomorrow.

Regards, Pat


----------



## Guest

Anybody got a pic. of the backside of the cam yet. I am not seeing it equalise anything yet, looks like a straight 2 cam so far.


----------



## jonnybow

Sean, that setup looks like a "straight 2 cam" to you? I can honestly say that I have never seen a 2 cam without cables that attach to the opposite limbs on any bow ever built. I guess as far as a bow having 2 cams, yes this bow does have 2 cams. Thats as far as the similarities go.


Jon


----------



## sagecreek

Until I see a closeup of the other side of the cam, I'm with KGB on this one.

Looks like a two cam bow with timing issues and cam lean problems from a distance.

I will be first to congratulate them after I see first-hand the proof in the pudding.

Do you think Mathews will have a two-page smear campain and video disting the Equalizer cam?  

This could get interesting.

Will bow tech have to pay Mathews twice the royalities for using two-single cams on each bow?


----------



## Bowtech Rocks

*Pat, it's good to see you on the boards !!*

My sales rep tells me I should have 2005s on the wall by mid-December. The Diamonds we ordered should be ready to ship anytime after Nov. 15th. If someone is saying March, don't put too much faith in it. Our biggest months for Bowtech sales this year were January and February, right after the 2004 models hit the shelf. I expect this January and February to be the same, with a lineup like this .

Pat and Todd, I'll see you at the ATA show in January. Keep up the great work !!

Kent


----------



## Guest

jonnybow said:


> *Sean, that setup looks like a "straight 2 cam" to you? I can honestly say that I have never seen a 2 cam without cables that attach to the opposite limbs on any bow ever built. I guess as far as a bow having 2 cams, yes this bow does have 2 cams. Thats as far as the similarities go.
> 
> 
> Jon *



Unless someone posts a pic. of the backside of the cam how on Earth could you see other wise. So far nothing but talk.


----------



## bowmanhunter

BowTech_Shooter said:


> *DJ,
> 
> I'm not sure where you heard that one but the 2005 Diamond catalogs are ready now and the 2005 BowTech catalogs are set to be back from the printers tomorrow.
> 
> Regards, Pat *


Hey Pat,
J's been out of town so I called Fin,Fur and Feather for the info! I know I should have waited for him but I am excited to say the least Thats what I was told by them.Thanks for letting me know. I'm going to get a new one as soon JAson gets them in! Probably dont need it(LOL) but it's always good to try the new things out. I love my Liberty.Please keep us posted! Also, if you have any to try let me know and I'll stop out to the shop   

DJ


----------



## jonnybow

Sean, I don't care if I didn't see either side of the cam. If the power cable doesn't attach to the opposite limb but attaches to the opposite cable, it's unlike any other 2 cam ever marketed.

To say that it is like every other two cam on the market says one of two things; either you aren't very familiar with two cam bows or you just aren't paying attention.

This will be completely new and a breakthrough in archery.

Jon


----------



## La Crosse

Sean McKenty said:


> *Unless someone posts a pic. of the backside of the cam how on Earth could you see other wise. So far nothing but talk. *


I have one, so I just look at my bow.


----------



## walks with a gi

*OK La Cross*

While you're LOOKING at your bow,, put your grip hand on the grip and then draw the bow to full draw with your other hand and tell us if the draw cycle more closely resembles the Freedom cam or the Dually cams draw cycle  And while you're lookin',, does each cam have three (3) string/cable tracks like a sinlge cam does??  This will tell the world that this is not a normal dual cam system...


----------



## p-maannn

howd you get one


----------



## bohntr

i think he's talkin about a twin cam not a new Bowtech


----------



## xmeister

*Shot an Equalizer prototype*

Key word: Prototype 

This was actually an '04 Liberty riser with '05 limbs and prototype equalizer cams, a two track system with 3 strings. The main string and 1st "cable" unwind as the 2nd "cable" winds. Basically unloading the power source while harnessing the power. The draw weight peaks in the first 5 inches, then tapers off to the 80 % letoff. I shot this at both 50# & 60# and it's a Very Smooth draw cycle, indeed. 

Other than the top cam having a draw stop, both cams are identical. In fact, the top right hand Equalizer cam is actually the bottom left hand Equalizer cam or visa versa and a bottom right hand cam is also the top left hand cam or visa versa. Is that cool or what?

Factory tests with a 28" DL Allegience @ 350 gr/70# = 305 fps. The cool thing was when they tested 300/60# and 250/50# the results were the same.......305 fps. Until now, I have not shot a system without losing speed when converting to lower draw weights at 5 grains per pound.

She's definately a shooter at 305 fps @ 60#-28", 300 grain arrow. 420 grain hunting arrow is still at 269 fps. Lot of fun shooting it as it was very repeatable with no shock or vibe, gotta love it when it just goes dead in your hand. I got to shoot it last Sunday and was headed over again this afternoon, but he was getting ready to go hunting, so I'll have to wait til mid-morning tomorrow.

So, if this is the "diamond in the rough", what will the production models be like?


----------



## La Crosse

bohntr said:


> *i think he's talkin about a twin cam not a new Bowtech *


No, I'm talking about a prototype Equalizer system. My prototype has a very different draw cycle than the draw cycle explained as that of the model to be released, so I can't comment on how it feels relative to a Freedom cam.

Also, I've heard a lot of reference to it being like "two single cams" rigged together, or like a hybrid cam. Simply as a point of interest, the original prototype was designed around the Bowtech dual cam, basically resulting in a dual cam arrangement with perfect synchronization. It's like a dual cam, but if you "high wrist" it or "low wrist" it, there is no affect on cam synchronization. In fact, if you grab the bow a couple of inches below the grip and draw from a couple of inches above the nocking point, the cams will stay in synch.

FYI, for those waiting on bows, it won't be long. I spoke with the folks at Bowtech a couple of days ago, and they said that 28" models were starting to ship, and 29" models were being assembled. I neglected to ask which models.


----------



## walks with a gi

*Quote*

It's like a dual cam, but if you "high wrist" it or "low wrist" it, there is no affect on cam synchronization.

This is what I was trying to convey earlier in this thread about grip hand placement having no effect on point of impact with this new system, which is important on a conventional dual cam system.
Someone then jumped at the chance to dismiss it as a wild claim 

I'm interested in feeling if there is a valley to the let off like the single or dual cam, or if it just lets off gradually to the 65 or 80% let off Also, it sounds like this cam system has a "reverse like" draw force curve..


----------



## Guest

La Crosse said:


> *I have one, so I just look at my bow. *



So post a picture of it then. I am not into all this cloke and dagger nonsence when looking for a new hunting bow


----------



## walks with a gi

There's a picture of the Allegiance on this thread,,,
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125820
HOT CAKES I tell ya,, they're going to go like hot cakes


----------



## gungho

I think what sean is refering to is why dosent some one post a good picture of the other side of the bow to late for all the other companies to copy this year they will have to do it next year 

Gung


----------



## Bazz

I AGREE.....

Hype is one thing but we are past the 'release date'......

Show us a pix up close of the reverse side !!!!!!


----------



## jonnybow

What's a cloke?


----------



## La Crosse

gungho said:


> *I think what sean is refering to is why dosent some one post a good picture of the other side of the bow to late for all the other companies to copy this year they will have to do it next year
> 
> Gung *


Other companies can't legally copy it, anyway. It's patent pending.


----------



## walks with a gi

I'll post a pic when I get mine but someone else might beat me to it


----------



## USNarcher

Alright I have been silent for too long. I have been reading this thread since day one. I have been a supporter of Bowtech for a couple of years now. My daughter was a staff shooter for them in 2003 and I shoot both the PRO-40 Dually and Wheely. I shoot a Dually with split bus cables (no cam lean) I think that they are the finest bows that I have shot. I am in Japan right now and will not be able to shoot the 05's until January. Who cares what they look like. Who cares how the cables attach to the cam. It is how the bow will shoot in "your" hands that matters. All the speculation in the world will not make up for this.

This thread has had 15,206 views and 205 replies. And only a handfull of people have actually seen this new bow set up. Awsome publicity. But quit wasting the keyboard keys and wait until they hit the shops until the speculations fly on perfomance.

This is my rant like it or not. Lets wait until they hit the street before anyone makes judgement on them.

On a lighter note I would like to take this time to wish everyone a happy holliday season. Last year I spent Christmas flying over Bagdad. This year I will spend it over the far east. Cherish what you have and remember there are archers around the world wishing that they were home playing with thier equipment.

Hope to see you all in Vegas.


----------



## jonnybow

Thanks Matt, be safe.

Its just a crime that we are going to lose one of the best maritime aircraft ever produced. A poor choice by the government to drop the P3 and go with that Boeing POC.

Enjoy it while you still have it.

Happy Holidays to you and yours.

Jon


----------



## francisco

*rascal*

I received today the 2005 Bowtech media kit.

I will try to post some pics of the new Rascal 2005 target colors.
Fantastic!!!

take care,
Frank


----------



## francisco

*rascal pics*

pics rascal


FJP


----------



## bowshooter73

i know it's in here someplace, but i must have missed it. what type of drawstop do the equilizer cams use? is it a hard stop like the infinity and freedom cams, or a softer sting stop of a dully. thx.


----------



## pdq 5oh

There is one stop, similar to the N (Infinity) cams, on the top cam.


----------



## bowshooter73

thx. that make me feel a little better about the new cams. next will be timing issues. i guess we'll see.


----------



## walks with a gi

*Quote*

This thread has had 15,206 views and 205 replies. And only a handfull of people have actually seen this new bow set up. Awsome publicity. But quit wasting the keyboard keys and wait until they hit the shops until the speculations fly on perfomance.


With all due respect,, and I do respect your service to your country This Equalizer cam system is an all new system, the last was the CPS hybrid by Darton about 7 years ago. With a new system comes new hope of better accuracy, less tuning and less maintence so this is where all the interest is coming from. Sure we haven't seen the EQ system yet, but the manufacture's claims should be taken seriously. They are offering it on 4 different bows and done away with all but one conventional dual cam bow in the '05 line up. Gone are the Patriot VFT Dually and the Pro 40 Dually, which were very popular bows. If BowTech replaced these two popular bows with the new system, it must be good. I'm wondering if in the future, it might be replacing the single cam system also


----------



## [email protected]

Ah WalkWG...
....You bring up a good point but condsider this they didn't get rid of the one cam (this would seem like a very opportune to get shed of a system that so many think is a bad set up) so one could deduce that the one cam system is still a very useful and good tool, while they dumped the 2 cam system.....inessence saying its not a useful tool........

Now the equalizer cam maybe the best but only time will tell!


But more intriguing the fact that the one cam remains while the two cam is no longer in the line!


HMMMMM!


----------



## x-ring-1

*The customer is always right...*

The flip side of that is "Sell what the customer wants--it does not have to be the best or right item but the one he/she wants!!! The Eqa. system may be better but their keeping the one cam because that is still what the majority of people still think is the best system! Right or wrong!!!


----------



## xmeister

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Liberty and the Allegiance will be very close to the same ATA length. I believe they will share the same or similar riser.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



While the risers may look similar, the Allegiance has a new riser design and parts are not interchangable  . 

The prototype I shot had cams and limbs that were designed specifically for that riser during R&D and is not the production run model.


----------



## BowTech_Shooter

[email protected] said:


> *Ah WalkWG...
> ....You bring up a good point but condsider this they didn't get rid of the one cam (this would seem like a very opportune to get shed of a system that so many think is a bad set up) so one could deduce that the one cam system is still a very useful and good tool, while they dumped the 2 cam system.....inessence saying its not a useful tool........
> 
> Now the equalizer cam maybe the best but only time will tell!
> 
> 
> But more intriguing the fact that the one cam remains while the two cam is no longer in the line!
> 
> 
> HMMMMM! *



The BlackKnight Dually is still in the line so we didn't do away with dual cams altogether, there's just more to choose from. Now a person has a choice of 3 single cam designs, a dual or the Equalizer System.


----------



## Bazz

USNarcher said:


> *Alright I have been silent for too long. I have been reading this thread since day one. *


I agree with all you say about the Equipment but the marketing/hype that has been centred around this 'new system' means that expectations are very high now. If some of the people who do finally buy because of this, are disapointed when their results dont improve as they might expect, after all the attention this new gear is getting.... the backlash might be 'very interesting'. Word of mouth can make or break a new thing regardless of wether it is deserved or not.
I dont think it is the company (Bowtech) is wholly responsible for all the hype but i think it would be prudent for them to 'be seen to come clean' when so many of there supporters are asking to see the details. I have only owned 3 Bowtech bows and they have all been a pleasure to shoot, I expect the same of the new bows, but PLEASE - stop the [email protected]#$g around and show us a decent pix !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## walks with a gi

Ok,,, I'll be quiet Any more posts from me will be typed with one hand over my mouth  
This'll be cool!! Don't have to worry about spell check!!! 
MMMmmm Mmmm mmmm mmmmm mm m mm mmmm  Mmmm mmmm mmmmmm m mm


----------



## USNarcher

Pictures are cool. But shooting it is the only true test. I will have to wait until January.


----------



## StevenB

mmm constitution, independance or old glory what to pick, what to pick?


----------



## Bo Hunter

> The Eqa. system may be better but their keeping the one cam because that is still what the majority of people still think is the best system! Right or wrong!!!


I question whether a "majority" of people still think its the best system, other than those that do because "Matt told them so".

I think it more has to do with the average "speed" factor of the lineup. You can see that most of the Equalizer systems roll off the line a tad slower than the Infinity cam. You can't very well "Take the Arch out of Archery" and drop the overall average IBO speed of your entire line. Even if they are smoother or more forgiving.

I would imagine, the ONLY reason the Black Night Dually is still available is simply because, nothing had to be done to KEEP the fastest bow in the lineup. Simply keep building them - and tout one of the fastest bows on the market.

I'm sure a Black Night Equalizer is soon to follow.....

I can't wait to see this bow. Its about time someone did this. It only makes sense....

Bo


----------



## [email protected]

Bo Hunter....



> I question wheter a majority of people still think its the best system, other than those that do because MAtt told them so



I guess "majority of people" would include all those at Bowtech!

Kevin Stother being one of them...that I guess goes by what MAtt tells them!


I believe Bowtech still has one cam in thier 2005 line up!!!!!!!As I'm look at the Diamond by Bowtech Catalog 4 bows in that line -up and only one is a 2 cam!


Think before you speak! It can and will be used against you on the forum court!

Besides I thought Bowtech quit makeing bows 2-3 years ago!

Leigh         

Soon to be Forum Princess!


----------



## sagecreek

I'm excited about their new cam system. It will be fun to see how it plays out.

I don't think it's a perfect system, but something new to catch our attention.

Kudos to Bowtech for giving us a new cam technology.


----------



## pdq 5oh

[email protected]:


> Think before you speak!


Maybe you should heed your own advice. Does BowTech's dropping a couple of dual cam bows in their lineup say the duals are inferior? I think not. They would have basically four Patriots if they kept the Pat Dually. The Equalizer cams get close enough to the Duallys speed, so why have the repetition in models? Once the Equalizer bows are in customer's hands, we'll see how they compare to the Duallys, in the real world. But I'll bet they smoke the singles.


----------



## Bo Hunter

> Think before you speak! It can and will be used against you on the forum court!


I believe you should take your own advice. No where did I say how I personally felt toward Cam systems. Nor did I say where one was "better" than the other.

MANY people on here, are followers, and merely regurgitate what they read or hear, rather than forming their own opinions, based on facts and observations, hence the "Mathews Following". Note that I did not say that all those that shoot Mathews are followers. I'm talking about these uneducated masses that follow and also make the majority the majority. These are the people I was referring to in the "because Matt told them so" comment.

In addition, the definition of "better" is also subject to further scrutiny. Better how? More accurate? More forgiving? Faster? Smoother? Easier to tune? Easier to maintain? and the list goes on.

Personally, and I'm not a Mathews sheeple, but, I think both Matt McPhereson, and Kevin Strothers are both pretty brilliant men. I also personally feel that overall, a single cam bow, in theory should be a superior design - but that is the key, in theory. The superior design, has to be designed and proven. I base this on my understanding of physics, and background as a mechanical engineer. Not because I read an article where Matt McPherson said so.

It appears Bowtech feels that they've come up with something that will compete with currently available single cam designs. Otherwise, they wouldn't have spent the money to bring it to market. I mean, its not like they needed to.

They were growing with their single cam, and traditional dual cam lines just fine. But I don't think growth is Strothers' goal. He wants to invent the best, much like Matt. I don't know him, nor have I ever met him personally, its just what I've gleaned by reading his patents. I think this battle for the best between he and McPherson should really benefit the archery community. This should get really good in the next couple years!

Can't WAIT to check out this new cam system!


----------



## sagecreek

I'm a mechanical engineer also. IMO, the single cam is a superior design also. String stretch is the main issue, which can be overcome by quality strings and cables.


----------



## walks with a gi

Mmmmmm mmm Mmmm m mmmmm mm mmmm!!! Mmm mmmm mmm mmmmmm mm mmmmmm mmm mmmm mmmmmm mmmmmm.  Mmm mmm Mmmmmmmmm Mmmmmm mmmmmm mmmmm mm mm mmm mmmm mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmm mmm mmm mmmmmmm.


----------



## [email protected]

PDQ and BO


Come on guys really BO made a statement that was mean sprited about Matt telling people that single cam is the be all end all.

I simply made a reply back to it based on logic, truth and bit of sarcasm! I expected Bo to get it since he is a sarcasm guru! 

Golly, form the looks of it you guys are getting defensive! Are you sure your not Mathews shooters posing as Bowtech boys? 
I thought us Mathews shooters had the market on defensiveness!

BTW way I don't shoot a Mathews because someone told me to! I enjoy the feel of the cam and the release of the bow. And I say that after shooting many other brands of bows.

I suspect that those are the same reason you like a diffrent brand. 

I too never said that one sytem was better than the other...

Why does enjoying one bow brand over another make people sheep? If this blanket statement where true than anyone that has only one bow is a sheep(follower)

Is it so hard for you to understand that I enjoy the Mathews bows! I like the system!!!!!! It works for me and it works for others as well!

Look I'll end this by saying ......guys I thought the bit about using what you say on a forum can & will be used against you! Oozed sarcasm! Don't you see you used my own words against me!!!!!

Now I will shoot the new Bowtech cause I try to be a well informed person.......(if they have some in a short draw 60# bow I can shoot at the ATA show!) HINT HINT BOWTECH!!!!!!!!


Oh well!


----------



## JOE PA

*Whew!*

It's a good thing some of you already know (without trying it) that the Equalizer cam system is inferior, and will be beset by incurable problems. Thanks for posting your thoughts. You probably have saved me $700!


----------



## Rangeball

walks with a gi said:


> *Mmmmmm mmm Mmmm m mmmmm mm mmmm!!! Mmm mmmm mmm mmmmmm mm mmmmmm mmm mmmm mmmmmm mmmmmm.  Mmm mmm Mmmmmmmmm Mmmmmm mmmmmm mmmmm mm mm mmm mmmm mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmm mmm mmm mmmmmmm.   *


Damn walks, that reminds me of the first date I went on...


----------



## Bo Hunter

> Come on guys really BO made a statement that was mean sprited about Matt telling people that single cam is the be all end all.


I realize some of your response was in sarcasm, but I did want to clear something up.

I was making a statement how many believe and promote ideas without giving it much thought. Someone the other day was spouting those "Tournament Statistics" in the one Mathews Ads to me when I told them they should also test shoot some other bows before blindly buying a Mathews based on advertising. My Reply was - why don't you go to a tournament some time and have a look for yourself - see how many people are shooting different bows and see who's winning.

Much like those who took the Mathews ad against the Cam-1/2 as fact. Spouting as if they knew for a fact Hoyt's didn't have level nock travel (not that most of them even knew what that meant...). I get tired of ignorance - which is why I hang out here. At least MOST people on here have a clue.

Perhaps I have a different perspective on the "Majority" working in a shop from time to time. I hear the BS and the crap these people believe, including the sources of the crap. "My uncles buddies friend said that...."

I would never insult Matt about his statement of the single cam being the "end all". He truly believes it, and I will lose all respect for him if he ever builds anything BUT a single cam bow, for he will have succumbed the mighty dollar - and with a company as successful as his, it would be a shame to do that.

I honestly think Bowtech is on to something here, and until the "perfect" single cam is designed, I'm willing to try anything out there without discrimination. Hell, I had a Mathews before this Bowtech....


----------



## [email protected]

Ahhh Bo we have an understanding!


I also get sick of the You only shoot a Mathews becasue your a lost sheep following a leader or your just buying into the HYPE! Beleive me I've shoot several other brands and came back to Mathews becasue it felt the best to me!

I agree the only way for me or any other archer to say that I like my bow best and with authority is by shooting other bows and comparing the features of why I like this or that!


As far as the ads aboutt tournamnets that's just marketing...not unlike the "Martin girlly ads".

I hope no one choose a bow based on the sole fact that "it" won a lot of tournamnets...now if that gets them in to the my shop and they say hey I hear Mathews wins alot of tournamnets...I'd like to shoot one to see what their all about.....Hey nothing wrong with that!
Or hey I want to take the Arch out or Achery! Let me shoot a bowtech! (very few bows today arch )

Its all good!
Leigh


----------



## pdq 5oh

> Matt telling people that single cam is the be all end all.


That pretty well sums it up on their end. 

That should pretty much end the hijacking. Fact is, the 05 BowTechs are going to up the ante. Duals or Equalizers to open.


----------



## sportsmensden

*2005 bowtech i have pic's of all new mod*

check out all the new pic of the 2005 bowtech bow at www.thesportsmensden.com they look great and this new cam is SWEET


----------



## walks with a gi

Nice web site!! I didn't see a pic of the Allegiance though but the pic of the Old Glory has me thinking again,,, hunting or 3D?,, hunting or 3D??? That Old Glory just looks right!!


----------



## PA Hardwoods

I agree with you WWAG as soon as my shop gets an Old Glory in I'll be shooting it, and I'm sure it will be coming home with me replacing my wife in bed. No but seriously it seems like a great bow for both 3D and hunting, and with the exact specs I wished Bowtech had before. Glad I didn't get that Patriot last year now.


----------



## walks with a gi

I shot the Pro 40 Freedom cam last spring a bit and really liked that bow!!! I loved the lines of the riser and though I didn't measure it, it seemed to have less reflex in the riser that the Liberty. It looks to me that the Old Glory is using the same riser as last year's Pro 40,,, just looks sweet and IMO is the best looking of the '05 line up. I just need to decide what I'm going to worry about more,, 3D's or hunting. My little Justice is just so sweet to draw,, I've forgotten about loosing a bit of speed with it. The 2 deer I shot with it didn't know the difference 
Hope they come in soon so I can fondle em'


----------



## PA Hardwoods

My shop said they expect them in the first week in december. I just can't wait to shoot the new cam system. from what I understand about the design it all makes perfect sense and will more than live up to the hype. That Old Glory just seems like my new baby, longer ATA, decent brace, and good speed. Like I said before th perfect bow for those guys who can't afford 2 but shoot 3D and Hunt.


----------



## Jerry/NJ

walks with a gi said:


> *
> Hope they come in soon so I can fondle em' *


The deer? hehehe


----------



## walks with a gi

No silly,,, da boz I'm eating my deere


----------



## francisco

*Fita 1420 or 1425 with Bowtech 2005?*

Just a thought.
Ive seen the specifications of new Bowtech Target Models 2005.
do you think this year we will see FITA scores as 1420 or 1425 points with Bowtech?

I hope so.
F.


----------



## Bazz

*Re: Fita 1420 or 1425 with Bowtech 2005?*



francisco said:


> *Just a thought.
> Ive seen the specifications of new Bowtech Target Models 2005.
> do you think this year we will see FITA scores as 1420 or 1425 points with Bowtech?
> 
> I hope so.
> F.
> *


Hey Franciso,
You are part of the Bowtech Organisation - tell us why Bowtech refuse to post pictures for us all to see of both sides of the new cam system?


----------



## Donkey Hunter

Does anyone know if the new cam will be available in 80#s?


----------



## walks with a gi

I don't think I've read that it will be. The Patriot VFT, Justice VFT and the Liberty VFT was available in 80 pounds last year


----------



## BowTech_Shooter

Donkey Hunter said:


> *Does anyone know if the new cam will be available in 80#s? *



None of the 2005's will be offered over 70 lbs.


----------



## Donkey Hunter

Well, that sucks. Thanks for the quick reply.


----------



## walks with a gi

Buy the BlackKnight in 70 pounds and I'll bet it will out shoot any other 80 pound bow on the market


----------



## valk_tourer

*'05 bowtechs*

From what I hear the '04's shoot better. May be a personal opinion but thats what the pro shop shooters say and thats not because they are trying to sell me one, I already have one.


----------



## francisco

*to Buzz*

Dear Mr Buzz from New Zealand:

Bowtech doesnt refuse to make anything.
I believe they are making a great work this year designing 2 WEB SITES (Bowtech and Diamond) At the SAME TIME, designing 2 Catalogues and all the Marketing items for 2005.
As the New web site for 2005 has not been launched yet (I believe it will be First December or middle of the month) and 2005 Year doesnt start until January, I think they are working ok.
Things Take time, specially when you are developing the Best Product.

what you have until now is some little information in advance given by shooters, but not by the Company.

Best Regards,
F.


----------



## Bazz

Thanks francisco,

I think you miss read my post....
They would have released the Photo's of the new products that are on this forum and around the web. All this thread started for was a sneak preview of the new bows but all we see is the same as the 04 models with the strings connected differently...
My son (you probably know him) shoots a Patriot 04 and I shoot the Pro 40... NO doubt the bows are the best we have ever shot but if the bows are already being shipped to dealers!!! why not release some better photo's for all to see rather than only for those people that can get to a dealer with the product in stock.

I don't like the post a few back 
'From what I hear the '04's shoot better. May be a personal opinion but thats what the pro shop shooters say'

if so that 1420 you talked about might not happen.....

BAZZ


----------



## walks with a gi

Bazz, these are not "the '04's with the strings connected differently". The equalizer cam system is completely different than the Infinity, Wheely, Freedom or Dually cam systems in that the equalizer system does not use modules to change the draw length. The EQ cams are draw length specific and must both be swapped out to a different sized set to change the draw length of the bow. No, we haven't seen the back side of this new cam system but we haven't seen the back side of any of the manufacture's new offerings either. I guess we'll just have to look at what they give us until the new models hit the dealers but I'm guessing they will be all they are said to be.
As soon as I can, I'll provide a picture of the "back side" but like I said, someone will probably beat me to it


----------



## walks with a gi

Bazz, these are not "the '04's with the strings connected differently". The equalizer cam system is completely different than the Infinity, Wheely, Freedom or Dually cam systems in that the equalizer system does not use modules to change the draw length. The EQ cams are draw length specific and must both be swapped out to a different sized set to change the draw length of the bow. No, we haven't seen the back side of this new cam system but we haven't seen the back side of any of the manufacture's new offerings either. I guess we'll just have to look at what they give us until the new models hit the dealers but I'm guessing they will be all they are said to be.
As soon as I can, I'll provide a picture of the "back side" but like I said, someone will probably beat me to it


----------



## Bazz

Thanks walks,

I know the bows are different... just a bit of 'tongue in cheek',
Look forward to your post when it happens....

My local Bowtech dealer was at a shoot on the weekend that had the Matthews, PSE and Browning dealers there... they all had the 2005 catalogues for the archers to take home !!

Looking forward to seeing the new bows... but not sure now, I think I will wait and see what the feedback is before i buy for myself, I am still in love with my Pro 40. 

My son on the other hand has the talent in the family and cant wait to get one. He can make any bow shoot well. I guess it is the difference between the talented and the majority of the rest of us. Its always the nut behind the wheel that makes the difference.

Bazz


----------



## bowmanhunter

Tommorow is my big day, I'll let you know hoe they shoot(LOL)


----------



## walks with a gi

Sorry for the double post AT is slow or I'm just too fast!!!


----------



## leintz

*new bowtech's cam*

is it similar ?


----------



## La Crosse

No


----------



## MCB_MI

Nope not as I understand it, they have said that it hooks to the cam not over the axle.


----------



## Bo Hunter

Any news yet? I'm still having a hard time understanding how the system works, considering everything I can think of, given the information at hand, results in some sort of problem if each "cable" is not EXACTLY the same length. Did I miss something?

I must say, this is a big frustrating, considering these bows have been "released". Lets get some pictures up here and explain how this system works. What difference does it make what anyone else offers, and whether we've seen the backsides of their cams. Is it going to change once that information comes out? I doubt.

Lets get some pictures and start putting the money where the mouth is....


----------



## pro38_shooter

Not even close.
cam has a lobe, cable goes around back side and attaches to a post on the front side.


----------



## pro38_shooter

Get to your local delaer next week, if they have ordered their introductory package, they should have one to look at.


----------



## francisco

*2005 year for Bowtech*

Yeah, 2005 will be a fantastic year for Bowtech.
I know it, I feel it.

Francisco


----------



## kyhunter

does anyone know if they will have any combo target/hunting colors. I think hoyts safari color with black limbs and limb pockets will look so sweet. I would like to see bowtech have a good color option like that.


----------



## BowTech_Shooter

Donkey Hunter said:


> *Well, that sucks. Thanks for the quick reply. *



Donkey Hunter,

I got some good news for you and a few others. The Allegiance VFT will be available in 50-60-70-80-90 or 100 lbs.

Regards, Pat


----------



## niteshade

*bowtech*

i feel bowtech is going straight to the top in sales this year!


----------



## Rangeball

Wow...

Pat, when the Freedom cam was introduced last year, there was a lot of talk about the ease of the draw cycle, saying it felt 10#s lighter the actual setting (70# felt like drawing 60#, etc).

I'm hearing rumors the new equalizer gives this same perceived reduction in effort to draw, yet retains speeds comparable to the I and N-cam.

What's your take?


----------



## JOE PA

Rangeball:

This is very similar to the topic you started over on Huntingnet. The Freedom cam is easy to draw for most. It does hit peak quickly, and then the weight gradually and smoothly drops lower. I personally like that type of draw cycle very much, and can shoot about 8-10# heavier with the same apparent effort than a cam that peaks much later in the draw cycle. I personally think they have the power vs. peak in the draw cycle thing about right. The Pro 40 wheely was similar but not quite as smooth as the Freedom cam, as it had the slightest "hump" near the end of the draw at longer draw lengths. I've read that the draw cycle is similar on the Equalizer cam system. If it is that much faster, I'd guess it is either due to lower brace, or the draw does not drop off as quickly as the Freedom cam, or a combo of both factors. It sounds like the system should be nice to draw and plenty fast. 

Lientz: LOL, I'm sure they will look just like a 1980's wheel bow with steel cables.


----------



## Guest

any pictures of the back side of the cam yet?


----------



## Rangeball

Joe, just trying to eak every bit of info out of this I can 

At this point I'm thinking there will be a longer dwell at peak on the equalizer versus the freedom cam, but since it will be placed earlier in the draw it won't be as noticeable. Hence, same perception of minimal effort but increased performance.

From what I recall, the graph of the Freedom cam rounds up to peak then immediately rounds down to the wall. I'm thinking the equalizer's back end will look similar, but it will ramp up to peak more steeply, similar to the latest version of Darton's CPS cams.

Pat?


----------



## walks with a gi

Range,,, where'd you see a force draw curve of the Freedom cam


----------



## Gritty

LOL. looks like a cam.5 too me. but Like posted ealier I'd have to see it and how it is strung but the principle of the cam.5 is still pretty evident. 

I don't blame them for switching. The cam.5 is simply perfect and will be the rage for a few years. 

How long before mathews comes out with one?LOL

I'll still stick with the cam.5 


05 Ultratec on the way


Gritty


----------



## 500 fps

The cam .5 uses one cam to store all the energy in both limbs, the cam .5 uses split cables to link the cam to the opposite limbs.

With the Eliminator both cams store energy, and the system does not use split cables and connect directly from one cam to the other, not the opposite limb..........................so how are they similar again?


----------



## Gritty

Hey, I don't want to argue about it. all I see is a bow that looks like a cam.5. Where that top end is attatched will not matter unless it is picked up and by how much. If it is just attatched to the axle. it is not doing anything but alowwing cam lean...

The split buss allows tunibility and perfect set ups.to elleiviate any cam lean. If this set up or so called different set up allows this tunibility . though I can not see how..... great.....

But it still looks like a cam.5

Hey ,,,,, I shot bowtech. I liked them. But the cam.5 set up was far easier to get papertuned over the solo cam set ups they had . This is udoubtedly a better bow then they had espeacilly for guys with longer draw where nock travel is magnified.

Just my opinion.....

Don't get all bent up about it. Pictures don't lie...

Heck I even replaced the Mathews cam system on my High Country with Hoyt cam.5 system. got better arrow flight . more speed. and a smoother quieter bow.. It is a great system.....

This is a nice change for Bowtech..

Gritty


----------



## walks with a gi

I picked up a new BowTech catalog yesterday and it's awsome!! You can kinda see how the cam works and there is nothing attached to the axle on either end. That Allegiance and Old Glory will make the ideal hunting/3D duo. The Defender will be in the turkey blind with my wife this spring I like the grey anodized cams


----------



## bohntr

Gritty

I see you have glasses from your picture,are they presciption?
If their not you should think about getting some or changing to a stonger pair.
The equalizer closer resembles the Infinity single cam, you seem to be the only person here who thinks it looks like a .5

Oh please stop thinking Hoyt invented the wheel here and give Darton the credit it's due. They are called Hybrids not cam 1/2s, you shoud be calling them CPS.


----------



## Gritty

LOL, ya I may need a new pres. 

But if you can not see the resemblance to a Cam.5 Maybe when I get my new specs I'll send you my old ones.LOL

I could care less what they want to market and how they go about doing it..... Hey it's not in my interest. All I see is another cam.5with a week skinny riser that will flex......

My Pro 40 Freedom from last year would flex like a 1 1/4 in the press...........No wonder it was untunable.. With Hoyts shorter beefer trussed riser , this is not a issue.


The cam.5 is not Hoyts Idea. I know that... Daaa

Who doesn't??... 

Like I said. last season the bows Bowtech produced were not too hot IMHO. they had to do something . This is by far a improvement. Now all they need to do is shorten up the riser while beefing it up to reduce flex and lengthen the limbs to get the same ATA bow......

Heck What do I care. My bow is already ordered and on the way.....

I've heard talk on other sites about the 05 hoyts being nothing different then the 04's other then a few ad ons and colors.

Why should they change anything? Don't really make sense to. the Bowtechs needed something ... 

This is a step in the right direction for them.

Gritty


----------



## peterk

Riser flexing? Has anyone else seen this happen with their Bowtechs? Seems a bit odd.


----------



## Marcus

Gritty
It appears you have no understanding of how the Cam 1/2 system actually works and have also failed to read this thread. I would also suspect you have no understanding of how Single cams works and may also struggle with the twin cam concept. 
If you actually paid attention to the talk on this system's design you will see that it is clearly NOT related to the Cam 1/2 but rather the twin cam with a different stringing principle. Now don't yell "Cam 1/2" here because the cam 1/2 is different again. 
One glaring example that you will see is that the top and bottom cams on the cam 1/2 are actually quite different with the bottom cam having 3 tracks. The Equalizer system uses identical cams top and bottom. You will also see with the Cam 1/2 that the control cable does a rather poor job of keeping the cams in time on the Cam 1/2. Jury is out on the Bowtech cams, but the design is more sound. 

As for Bowtech's 04 range. I have setup quite a number of bows this year, Hoyts, PSE, Bowtech and Mathews bows. All 4 I could shoot perfect indoor rounds with out of the box. The easiest was the Freedom Cam. It's quite possible you have some form issues you need to sort out. 

Have fun with your Cam 1/2, hope you really know what you are doing or you will be enjoying high shots with it. 

PS. Hoyt ProStaffer in 2005 = No creditbility when flaming Bowtech in a Bowtech thread.


----------



## MrSinister

Does any of this really matter. Cam.5, other hybrid, Mathews new single cam double cams. All of these bows shoot like a dream and then some. Setup on them all is beyond easy. New strings with little to no stretch cut out all of the past concerns of timing for the most part. The this is better and more revolutionary than that is a little silly. Any of these bows can win any competition or take any game in the right hands. They all perform better than most of us can shoot. I had my xtec tuned with feathers through paper and read an article about bare shaft tuning. I thought sounds fun and thought I would give it a try so I took it out knowing it was close I tried it first try at 20 yards. First arrow with feathers second with bare shaft. Bingo both side by side. These bows shoot so good the advantages of one over another is hardly noticable. It seems Matt found some real speed with his new cam this year and he usually backs up his claims of speed so that one should be quite a seller if it is as smooth as the previous cam on the LX and Outback and has that kind of speed. Little improvements have came from all the cam types single, double and hybrids. A hissing contest about which one has what advantages is not worth much. We have all been big winners from the efforts of these companies in the last several years. Oh and I don't see Mathews as going to make a hybrid any time soon does anyone else .


----------



## walks with a gi

*Credibility Gone!!*

Quote from Gritty;
"My Pro 40 Freedom from last year would flex like a 1 1/4 in the press...........No wonder it was untunable.. With Hoyts shorter beefer trussed riser , this is not a issue."

Bending your bow in a bow press 1 1/4 inches due to being a "Hoyt Pro Staffer" and telling us about it heere will go a very long ways to show us that you know what you are talking about Was bending your riser intentional, trying to paper tune it??? LOL!!! You're really selling tons of Hoyts with these comments!!!


----------



## Gritty

You are right, I do have issues with Bowtech........ I got all caught up in the hype of amazing speeds and VFt tec and a bunch of other marketing schemes . I bought a pro 40 dually in 03. Great bow as long as it was in time. and shooting at targets,,fast flat shooting....... But one problem . it was so friggin loud the deer would drop under the leave before the arrow ever arrived. 

I shoot plenty of good bucks and have taken some great ones... The bow is rarely the culprit when something goes wrong. But that season was a season of total disbelief and loss of confidence in a bow that could not be counted on... 

It started in early Oct . in WI. when a big 10 I had been hunting finally got with in 30 yrds... got to full draw on a standing broadside deer that would weigh in the 200 lb area. big chested target . That deer dropped so fast and out of that arrows path at release , I almost fell out of my tree in disbelief.....

So, I went to work on the noise issues. before I was off to Iowa. Iowa tags are 320 bucks a pop........Not cheap . But I had been hunting there since 95 and have my area pretty well figured and would bet my next Hoyt  that I would get a shot at a P&Y let alone several......

All , All of the 5 opportunities I had on that trip ressulted in a deer dropping below the arrow. I even tried holding on the bottom of the chest.. The bow was way to friggin loud . All toll that bow costed me shots at 6 P&Y bucks in one season alone before I thru it in the case and filled my last tag with my High Country no problem

So...

I sold it..... My dealer new of my attitude towards the Bowtechs and talked me into another....... I ordered the 04 Freedom cam pro 40........It was definatly quiet 

The dealer installed a TT rest . at the time I had not my own archery shop at home , but I do now..... The bow would never paper .... I canned the rest because it would not adjust out far enough to even get it close to paper. My dealer said paper tuning is not important it is how the arrows group down range that matters.....

I suppose it is If all your going to use it for is slingin 5 spot. But my bows go afield with fixed blade heads

Come to find out the riser flexs like a friggin spring. and is why it would never tune........ I never saw a bow flex when pressed like that bow.....So . 

Now I had 1400.00 bucks in 2 bows that either could not hit a deer unless you held under them or could not shoot a fixed blade head worth a crap.........

So, after 27 seasons of bow hunting I would think I gained at least enough knowledge and experience to know what is required in a perfect hunting bow....... Perfect arrow flight is one of my requirements. while being delivered in a smooth and quiet manner....... 

The bow I used this year had no problems. Not one deer dropped the release. Not one . plus I can shoot fixed blades at very high speeds with field point accuracy. 

That is what I paid for in the 2 BT's I had. Problem is . I never got it.

So yes I do have some issues, ,,,,,,,,,,,who wouldn't after the deer you are after time and time again is standing now out of range wondering what just happened and you know you just had your chance and the bow blew it for you.

But all this aside........

I still think those pics resemble a cam.5

Sorry,

I'll have to shoot one when they come in and see what they feel like. as compared to the Ultratec........ Don't really matter though . I have all the confidence in the world in what a am shooting now and will find that hard to be put aside for a bow that let me down not once but twice.

Gritty


----------



## walks with a gi




----------



## joebass

I double lunged a small doe 2 weeks ago at 32 yards with my 03 pro 40 dually. This is the longest shot I have ever taken on a deer. The doe was shot with a 375 grain arrow with the bow set at 60 lbs, and I only use one pin set at 25 yards.I have had this bow in the press numerous times and it shoots dead straight. It is the most accurate bow I have owned. I have also had a mighty mite and it was a shooter too. I just like the draw of duallys better. I have also had Hoyt, Martin and and High Country way back. There will be an 05 equalizer in my possesion soon.


----------



## walks with a gi

I've got 4 Duallys in my posession and they all are tack driving machines,, they even make me look good and haven't had a bit of trouble tuning them or making them quiet. Can't wait to get my Allegiance


----------



## pdq 5oh

Gritty, I suspect your problems are more a lack of tuning ability. The TT rests work fine on all the 04 BowTechs. I've put them on just about every model, no problems. You want to see some fixed blades slung like darts? Come on over. To say the P40 F cam can't be tuned, reiterates your lack of tuning skill. The riser flexing in the press? Learn how to work one. I'll grant the 03 was louder than the 04. But not so loud as to miss every deer it was shot at. No doubt the Hoyts are good bows. Please do enjoy them. And blaming your bows on some miserable shooting; priceless.


----------



## TheRealTruth

A great man once said, "It's important to let stupid people say stupid things, that way we know where the stupid people are."


----------



## dogknapper

*Pro 40 Fan*

I have 2 Pro 40s. One is a 2004 Freedom Cam. Thus far I have taken 2 deer with the bow this year. I shoot a fairly heavy carbon arrow (460 grains) including broadhead. The bow is EXTREMELY quiet. Both deer were at 25 yards and neither flinched or gave any indication of alarm. Both shots were pass throughs. This past week I was at the bow shop and had the opportunity to chronograph the set up and the bow shot consistently at 232 fps, not bad at 74# actual and 28 inch draw. As I shot, my friend at the bow shop remarked "that bow is noiseless." 

As for tuning, I paper tuned it and then had my pro shop check my work. The bow simply is more accurate than I can shoot. My drill at hunting ranges (25 yards medium) is to shoot off my 2nd story deck at a block. I shot at one of the bulls, picking one side. Then I shoot at the opposite side. And then I shoot in between. filling in the 3 inch bull. I started doing this because if I simply shot at the bull I destroyed too many arrows.

My other Pro 40 is a 2003 Wheely. I put on 80# limbs this weekend. I chronographed it also with the same arrow and it shot 268FPS with a 28 inch draw. I have the 80% let off modules on it. It is a stern draw but it is smooth with little shock on release. Accuracy is promising after tuning it this weekend. But I want to shoot it more before I take it in the woods. It is louder than my other Pro 40 but it is still a quiet bow.

I too look forward to trying the new Bowtechs. Who knows? Maybe I will drop down in ATA length to the Allegiance or even the 31/32 inch ATA.


----------



## walks with a gi

Surely someone has some of the '05 bows in their shop by now??? I've read somewhere that BowTech started shipping them last Monday


----------



## Double Lung 'Em

*Heard the same*

Heard the same as WWAG, hoping mine was in that shipment.


----------



## Techy

Gritty,

Hmmmm

Sounds like your difficulties are attributed to the fact that you bend your bows first. Although that does really separate the men from the boys. Seeing who can be the first one to tune their bow and bag a P&Y trophy after they bend it.


Really I don't know how you managed to bend your bow. 

Keep working on that TT. You'll get it. Some how I have managed to get them working flawlessly on nearly every bowtech model. ( I haven't put one on the rascal or ladyhawk yet) It usually takes ten minutes though.


----------



## gungho

gritty 
you bend your riser in the bow press hmmm one of the reasons I went for the bowtech was for the solid riser 
then it went to a tuning and then a noise isue I think the problem is with the guy behind the bow not the bow have had no problems with my pat dulie very easy to tune and have never bent the riser noise is not a problem can be tamed with cat wiskers the one problem I had was I had to start shooting 3 face targets to hard on arrows

Gung


----------



## walks with a gi

Gung's got it Cat whiskers on the cables (no speed loss) and on the string is the key to making the Duallys very quiet. I do believe that the Pro 40 Dually had more noise than the Patriot Dually but not so much that it's too noisy to hunt with 
The preformance is worth the extra effort to quiet them down, the bows expend so much energy at the shot that some is absorbed into the bow, especially with very light (300 to 375 grain) arrows


----------



## Techy

I read on here that the alliegence will be available up to 100#s, but I could have sworn that when I was looking at the catalog the other night it said only 70#'s. I could have missed it though. I'll post again if I find I am wrong.

P.S. Their catalog is really sharp this year.


----------



## Matt / PA

Techy,
The Allegiance IS available up to 100#, the catalog had a few typos and the 70# max weight on the Allegiance was one of them.
There will be a "2005 Quick Reference Guide" up and running very shortly on the website showing all of the correct specs. (maybe as early as tomorrow)


----------



## walks with a gi

Matt,, The wouldn't happen to be a state by state express delivery schedule on their web site tomorrow would there???   ,,, starting with Nebraska first


----------



## Techy

*Matt / PA*

Thanks for that info. I have a few customers that will me glad to hear that.


----------



## rmw

Pics of the cam http://forum.hunting.net/asppg/tm.asp?m=845902

Hope this works


----------



## jonnybow

I got my first 05 bow in today, it's an Allegiance setup at 28/70. Very different draw curve like has been said but surprisingly smooth. The breakover is almost unnoticable and feels nice. It'll take a few days to get used to the draw but I think it will be a great bow. Can't wait to shoot it and see how it flings an arrow.

I have 2 others also on the way in shipment and the rest should come before XMas.

Looks like a great year for BowTech.

Jon


----------



## JohnD

Can someone please post a pix og the cams from an endon profile

Thanks
JD


----------



## Olink

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129667

Pics are in the listed thread in the General Archery Discussion. The Bowtech cams are VERY similar to the bottom Hoyt Cam & 1/2 cam (sans the adjustable module).


----------



## RobVos

I have also noticed that the profile of the Hoyt Spiral cam is very similar to the Bowtech Dually cams. I think Hoyt decided to try to get that speed by looking at the BT line.


----------



## pinwheel5

We got in a 70lb., 28", Allegiance on Tuesday and I love the way it draws. The cams are very simple once you get to look at them. I am going to try to set it up today and shoot it.


----------



## francisco

*2005 Bowtech*

I have the 2005 Bowtech Catalogs and the way Bowtech Company goes better every year is spectacular.
I have to congratulate the Marketing Department from Bowtech as this Year the Catalogue is Impressive.
a Start of The art, I would say.

About bows I have Black Knights 2005 Camo and the new limb pocket combined with the well finished of the Mossy Oak color limbs and the anodized cams is perfect..Nothing more.

By the way, I love the Tshirt from the Bull riders with Bowtech Logo PBR and the pants.. Hope they are able to sell, I would buy some for me.

Frank


----------



## francisco

*Pictures Black Knight 2005*

First pic.

F.


----------



## francisco

*2nd pic*

2nd pic.

F.


----------



## francisco

*3rd pic*

3rd pic and last.

F.

BowTech
Taking the Arch Out of Archery.

Great Archery line 2005, Bowtech!


----------



## walks with a gi

Thanks for the pics Francisco!!! I really like the new limb bezels!! We've looked at round bezels forever it seems and it's just another example of how "thinking outside the box" can improve an already great product That BlackKnight is one super performer!!


----------



## Joe C.

I've shot the Allegiance the last couple of days I really like the way the bow draws and shoots! Can't wait to try an Old Glory. Isn't there a new target color this year? If so could someone please post a pic


----------



## KBacon

Does the BK have any changes for '05 other than the limb bezels and the reinforced limb tips (if they are even on the BK)... ???


----------



## newtobowhunting

I got to shoot the defender and aligence today. the new cam is very smooth. I was waiting to shoot the new switchback, no need to wait. these bows are awsome.


----------



## newtobowhunting

I got to shoot the defender and aligence today. the new cam is very smooth. I was waiting to shoot the new switchback, no need to wait. these bows are awsome.


----------



## francisco

*web 2005 running*

Bowtech Web page 2005 started with a small advance yesterday.
www.bowtecharchery.com

More news to come soon, pretty soon..

F.


----------



## walks with a gi

Here's a link to BowTech's web site that shows how the Equalizer cam system is different and some graphs. Cool stuff 

http://www.bowtecharchery.com/whats_new/BinarySys.htm


----------



## Unk Bond

pro38_shooter said:


> *Here it is! The first look!
> 
> Constitution
> 
> 40 1/4 ATA
> 8 1/4 Brace *




Hello

Well i got a copy of the talley sheet to day.

Heres my thoughts.

Before i start, I have a Pro 40 freedom cam 2004 at 27" draw

-------------------------
Now i agree that the Constution is a fine looking bow.

But iam sorry to say the spects leaves me out from being the proud owner of one.

I thought 8 1/4" brace height was great when i saw it and as i read across the line i saw the draw lent tobe 28".

And my  turned to a  
I feel the only reason they didn't offer the bow in a 27" brace heigh .Was that it would make the IBO speed look bad.

But by being 40" in lenth and with a 8 1/4" brace heigh ,this bow 
would have made me a fine indoor bow. Where speed wasn't a factor.

-----------------------

Then there is the Tomkat 8 1/4" brace height. can only be purchaced in a 60 or 70 lbs.

-------------
Now the Old Glory bow would fit me in ploundage and draw lenth. But i would have to sacafise brace heigh.And settle for a 7 1/4"brace height. And i have been down that road before with my Blk Max bow

So i may be wrong here. But as i see it. And after looking and reading the spec sheet.

There wasn't much cosideration given for indoor shooting.
Or for the archery that fell in line with a 27" draw or shorter.

Also it would have been nice to have on the spec sheet decribeing the cam type each bow would be fitted with.

So as of now i guess i will have to look forward to your new line in 2006. And hope for consideration for the indoor archer and the shorter archer draw lenth
Later
Unk.


----------



## pdq 5oh

By the catalog, the Constitution goes down to 26" draw. There may be a misprint, somewhere. And to say an Old Glory with 7 1/4" brace would be as unforgiving as a BM, not quite. The BM is a sub 6" brace bow. With your draw length, lower brace height is not a sin.


----------



## Matt / PA

*Constitution*

Unk Bond.......

The Constitution is actually a little bit FASTER than the Pro40 Freedom cam? Also the advertised speed rating for the Constitution is with the string silencers,and brass nock set. 

Are you saying that the Pro40 Freedom is fast enough but the Constitution won't be?
Or are you saying that you feel that the Pro40 Freedom cam was too slow at 27" for 3D and the Constitution will be as well?

As for the Old Glory!? While I agree that an 8 1/4" brace height should be more forgiving than a 7 1/4", in no way shape or form can you compare that to a 5 1/2" brace height that the Black Max carries! There are going to be a BUNCH of guys shooting the Old Glory for 3D competetion this year , me included. 

Name another bow on the market that is advertising IBO speeds into the mid 320's with a 7 1/4" brace height and a full string load? You won't find one.

Also remember that the other manufacturers advertised speeds are "Approximate" and with a bare string.
Check the other bows that advertise around 310fps IBO speeds and see if they have an 8 1/4" brace height.

An Old Glory at 27" at 5grs/lb should shoot in around 290fps with a 7 1/4" brace height!! (And a smooth draw too boot?) IF that's not looking out for a short draw 3D shooter I don't know what is?
Look around Unk, and you'll see just how many bows compare to those specs..........

I could shoot the Constitution for 3D competition this year without speed worries at all, as I have been blessed with a 30" draw length but I still choose to shoot the Old Glory.

If you'd like to discuss the specs and bows in more detail please get in touch with me.


----------



## Matt / PA

*Independence*

Unk,
I forgot to mention in my post as well........pdq 5oh is correct the Constitution is available down to 26" draw length.

Also just a note for everybody:

* The Independence ATA length is actually a little over 40" not the advertised 37 5/8". That was a misprint in the Catalog.
This bow is also available down to 26" draw lengths

So BowTech has (2) bows that will make terrific spot bows!
Heck the Independence with it's new "Big Wheel" cam and 5" idler will probably feel even longer ATA than the Constitution does!
So for spots you have a choice between the new Equalizer cam model and an even smoother single cam.

Don't fret Unk there are lots of bows in there for you for 2005!


----------



## walks with a gi

Unk,, Heere's a pic of the Independence I found..30 inch riser, 7 5/8 inch brace height and 26 to 31 inch draw length. Would make a great little brother for your Pro 40 Freedom!!


----------



## pdq 5oh

I've just been informed the specs on the quick reference guide on BowTech's site are correct. Some specs in the catalog are not. So the minimum draw length on the Constitution is 28". But it does go to 33". Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Joe C.

Has anyone seen the new target color yet?


----------



## apache1

*Bow Tech Sells*

So what do all of you guys think that this new system will do for the sells of BowTech bows. I was the number 1 dealer in Oklahoma this year. Opened in July and sold 68 bowtechs. I fill just from customer input that sells could double. I would like to hear anyones input.


----------



## Trushot_archer

> Some specs in the catalog are not.


The catalog must have been done for a while. The pics there show a draw stop on each cam but , if I read correctly it's only on the top right??

My dealer isn't on the net and he's worried about the timing issues with the double but I've told him that I though it was, in reality , only on one.


----------



## 500 fps

You are correct, it is just the top.


----------



## walks with a gi

*Re: Bow Tech Sells*



apache said:


> *So what do all of you guys think that this new system will do for the sells of BowTech bows. I was the number 1 dealer in Oklahoma this year. Opened in July and sold 68 bowtechs. I fill just from customer input that sells could double. I would like to hear anyones input. *



Just asking,,, but do you have double entrance doors on your archery shop??? Sonething you might want to seriously consider have done if you don't have them already 


Then the next thing would be the addition 
two more bathrooms
spa
pay phones
snack bar
carry out

Then don't forget about ordering that new 4X4 truck for yourself


----------



## bowmanhunter

*Re: Bow Tech Sells*



apache said:


> *So what do all of you guys think that this new system will do for the sells of BowTech bows. I was the number 1 dealer in Oklahoma this year. Opened in July and sold 68 bowtechs. I fill just from customer input that sells could double. I would like to hear anyones input. *


After shooting the new bows tonight, I can truely say they are awesome! So i would defiantely think Bowtech is going to have a banner year IMHO. I am no expert, but I was totally impressed with the new line up. I cant wait until I can actually buy one


----------



## apache1

*new bow*

I FINIALLY GOT MY NEW BOWTECH ONLY THE DESTROYER CAME IN AND WOW. I ORDERED THE ALLEGENCE FOR MYSELF AND IF IT IS ANYTHING LIKE THE DESTROYER I AM IN HEAVEN. MATHEWS BETTER COME OUT WITH SOMETHING HUGE OR THE SINGLE CAM IS GOING TO GO ON THE BACK BURNER. I SHOT THE DESTYOYER WITH AXIS 400 THAT IS 27" WITH A 80 GRAIN FEILD POINT AND IT SHOT 297 FPS. THAT IS PRETTY FAST FOR A HUNTING ARROW BOWTECH THANKS FOR A GREAT BOW THAT IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT GREAT THING. I HAVE A FEELING THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF DEALERS WANTING TO BE A BOWTECH DEALER THIS YEAR.


----------



## bowmanhunter

*apache*

It's great to hear a review on that bow also. Sounds like they are all going to be nice


----------



## NKYBOWHUNTER

I was curious do any of you dealers out their know what it is going to cost if you want to change you drawl length for these new bows. Since the cam is drawl length specific if you wanted to sell it could cost alot of money for new cam, string, etc. Are they going to have a reasonablely priced kit to make the change if needed? 

Thanks


----------



## Unk Bond

*Reply to subject*



pdq 5oh said:


> I've just been informed the specs on the quick reference guide on BowTech's site are correct. Some specs in the catalog are not. So the minimum draw length on the Constitution is 28". But it does go to 33". Sorry for the confusion.


Hello
You are so right.

And again i will have to stand on what i said before in my post on this tread

I feel Botech miss a great opertunity here by not includeing a 27" draw on the Contitution bow.Maintaining a 28" draw.I feel they lost quite a few sales on the account of the 28" draw.On this bow moddle.

Look down the Bowtech spec sheet .Out of 14 bows on this sheet.The Constitution was the only bow standing a lone at 28" draw.

And when 8 1/4" brace heigh and 40" in lenth would have showed me they had the indoor a nd short draw archer best interest a heart instead of IBO rateing to show a 300-308 fps At $799.00 

Independence 7 3/8" Brace H 50 -60- 70 LBS [ 27" 32" Draw ] 40" lenth] 290 to 308 fps] = $799.00 

Can't you guys see how Botech is useing these brace heights and draw lenths for the IBO rateing.

And draw lenth is secondary.

Later
Unk


----------



## PJBinMI

So Matt your saying Bowtechs' speeds are calculated with a "full" string?? I think you are very mistaken!.
And You show me and Old Glory going an Honest 290+ and I'll buy 2 for 3D this year.I've shot BT for the last 3 years as as staff shooter (and loved them)
Not bashing BT here , but I think Matt is very wrong.
I will see for myself when the new ones arrive.
I do wish BT would get the websight up!!! whats the hold up?? 
Pat


Matt / PA said:


> Unk Bond.......
> 
> The Constitution is actually a little bit FASTER than the Pro40 Freedom cam? Also the advertised speed rating for the Constitution is with the string silencers,and brass nock set.
> 
> Are you saying that the Pro40 Freedom is fast enough but the Constitution won't be?
> Or are you saying that you feel that the Pro40 Freedom cam was too slow at 27" for 3D and the Constitution will be as well?
> 
> As for the Old Glory!? While I agree that an 8 1/4" brace height should be more forgiving than a 7 1/4", in no way shape or form can you compare that to a 5 1/2" brace height that the Black Max carries! There are going to be a BUNCH of guys shooting the Old Glory for 3D competetion this year , me included.
> 
> Name another bow on the market that is advertising IBO speeds into the mid 320's with a 7 1/4" brace height and a full string load? You won't find one.
> 
> Also remember that the other manufacturers advertised speeds are "Approximate" and with a bare string.
> Check the other bows that advertise around 310fps IBO speeds and see if they have an 8 1/4" brace height.
> 
> An Old Glory at 27" at 5grs/lb should shoot in around 290fps with a 7 1/4" brace height!! (And a smooth draw too boot?) IF that's not looking out for a short draw 3D shooter I don't know what is?
> Look around Unk, and you'll see just how many bows compare to those specs..........
> 
> I could shoot the Constitution for 3D competition this year without speed worries at all, as I have been blessed with a 30" draw length but I still choose to shoot the Old Glory.
> 
> If you'd like to discuss the specs and bows in more detail please get in touch with me.


----------



## bowtech4me

apache said:


> I FINIALLY GOT MY NEW BOWTECH ONLY THE DESTROYER CAME IN AND WOW. I ORDERED THE ALLEGENCE FOR MYSELF AND IF IT IS ANYTHING LIKE THE DESTROYER I AM IN HEAVEN. MATHEWS BETTER COME OUT WITH SOMETHING HUGE OR THE SINGLE CAM IS GOING TO GO ON THE BACK BURNER. I SHOT THE DESTYOYER WITH AXIS 400 THAT IS 27" WITH A 80 GRAIN FEILD POINT AND IT SHOT 297 FPS. THAT IS PRETTY FAST FOR A HUNTING ARROW BOWTECH THANKS FOR A GREAT BOW THAT IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT GREAT THING. I HAVE A FEELING THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF DEALERS WANTING TO BE A BOWTECH DEALER THIS YEAR.


is that the "defender"?


----------



## BowTech_Shooter

PJBinMI said:


> So Matt your saying Bowtechs' speeds are calculated with a "full" string?? I think you are very mistaken!.
> And You show me and Old Glory going an Honest 290+ and I'll buy 2 for 3D this year.I've shot BT for the last 3 years as as staff shooter (and loved them)
> Not bashing BT here , but I think Matt is very wrong.
> I will see for myself when the new ones arrive.
> I do wish BT would get the websight up!!! whats the hold up??
> Pat



Pat,

Actually Matt is very right. In the past you would have been right but this year the advertised speeds and the birth certificate speeds are tested with the Hush Kit, VibraBlocks, 2 eliminator buttons and a brass nock installed. This is to help eliminate some confusion we had in the past.

What specs are you going to be testing the Old Glory at to try to get 290 out of it. (P.S. better take your check book)  

Regards, Pat


----------



## DakotaElkSlayer

*New Timing System, or just a copy?*

I just heard about this new Bowtech cam system at an archery shop in Bozeman a couple of weeks ago. And I read about 90% of this post... Could someone tell me how this "NEW" timing system is any different than what Oneida has used for the past 20+ years? From what I see, Oneida uses one cable between the cams while Bowtech uses two, shorter ones. Am I missing something...are they really THAT different?

Jim


----------



## Guest

Any oneida I have seen has cables all over it. An if what you say is true it would have been discovered during the patend search.


----------



## jonnybow

*research your questions before quoting.*

I think there are quite a few BowTech bashers who might want to do some research before opening their keyboards and typing incorrect info.

This year, BowTech's quoted speeds are measured with hushkits installed unlike past years speed quotes.

Why compare any product from Mathews (single cam) to this years BowTech Eq cammed bows. They shouldn't be compared, they aren't even in the same class. The easy way to make a decision isn't to type garbage on AT, go to a BowTech dealer and shoot one. If you don't like the new system, don't buy it.

This system isn't anything like an Oneida, thats the most rediculous statement I've heard concerning this system on here to date.
Comparing an Oneida to any other bow isn't possible, the system is so far different, it's almost laughable to think you could compare them.

If you are serious about learning more about the new cams, go to a dealer and touch it, shoot it and discuss it. If you just want to be a basher, continue to make false, uneducated statements and post them here for everyone to chuckle about.

Just like life, it's all about education.

Jon


----------



## DakotaElkSlayer

jonnybow said:


> This system isn't anything like an Oneida, thats the most rediculous statement I've heard concerning this system on here to date.
> Comparing an Oneida to any other bow isn't possible, the system is so far different, it's almost laughable to think you could compare them.
> 
> Jon


Hold on there a second, Jon! The way you guys are explaining the timing system is the same way the dealer in Bozeman explained it....the cams are connected to each other via cables so both cams have to rotate exactly the same...is that not right? Oneida bows have always done this, but with a single cable...or are you not familiar with Oneida bows?  

Jim


----------



## Rodney

*Hey Apache??????*

Apache, give some more specs on the bow. Draw lenght, draw weight and total arrow weight


----------



## StevenB

Unk Bond said:


> Hello
> You are so right.
> 
> And again i will have to stand on what i said before in my post on this tread
> 
> I feel Botech miss a great opertunity here by not includeing a 27" draw on the Contitution bow.Maintaining a 28" draw.I feel they lost quite a few sales on the account of the 28" draw.On this bow moddle.
> 
> Look down the Bowtech spec sheet .Out of 14 bows on this sheet.The Constitution was the only bow standing a lone at 28" draw.
> 
> And when 8 1/4" brace heigh and 40" in lenth would have showed me they had the indoor a nd short draw archer best interest a heart instead of IBO rateing to show a 300-308 fps At $799.00
> 
> Independence 7 3/8" Brace H 50 -60- 70 LBS [ 27" 32" Draw ] 40" lenth] 290 to 308 fps] = $799.00
> 
> Can't you guys see how Botech is useing these brace heights and draw lenths for the IBO rateing.
> 
> And draw lenth is secondary.
> 
> Later
> Unk


I don't think that the speed would have changed if the offered these 2 bows in shorter draw lengths, it would still have been tested at IBO specs 30" 70lbs and 350gr



James Park said:


> OldDog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shorter draw archers are missing out on performance aspects due to the erroneous assumption that they need the same brace and ata as the long draw shooters.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it all works in proportion. Hence, someone like Zoe with a 25.5" draw can use a proportionaly lower brace height and axle-to-axle bow than someone like me at 29.5" and get the same tolerance to tuning and torque, together with the advantages of better performance than using the same sort of parameters as I would.
> 
> If we use things in proportion, we get:
> 
> If, for me at 29" draw and a single cam bow, I am aiming for about 37" ata and 8" brace height:
> Draw	ata	brace
> 30	38	8.3
> 29	37	8
> 28	36	7.7
> 27	34	7.4
> 26	33	7.2
> 25	32	6.9
> 
> If, for me at 29" draw and a twin cam or hybrid cam bow, I am aiming for about 41" ata and 8" brace height:
> 
> Draw	ata	brace
> 30	42	8.3
> 29	41	8
> 28	40	7.7
> 27	38	7.4
> 26	37	7.2
> 25	35	6.9
Click to expand...

check out the thread further at 
http://www.archery-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=88890


----------



## jonnybow

Dakota, I have owned and enjoyed an Oneida in the past and am fairly familiar with the workings of the cams on their bows. The way their limbs and cables are setup is unlike any other I've seen. The Oneida almost works as a lever system due to the limbs being "hinged" rather than conventional limbs flexing and having concentrics at the tips doing the work. Yes, the "cams" on the Oneida do work together but the system isn't anything like the Equalizer system in design. The Oneida is actually more complex and timing is an issue with their setup.

You really need to go to the local shop and look at this setup yourself. You'll understand how it works and what we are talking about when you can see what it is and watch it shoot.

It's always been difficult for me to visualize anything without seeing it work and watching how it works. Believe me, this cam system is unlike anything else.

Jon


----------



## TimClark

I shot the Defender today at my pro-shop today. And all I can say is WOW! First thing I noticied was the draw was a littlw strong at first but then it felt a lot light. The draw was smooth as butter. Also the backwall was AMAZING. Strongest I have felt yet. So this is just my little tid-bit of info even though you already probably knew this stuff.


----------



## Tur-bow

Unk Bond said:


> Hello
> You are so right.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel Botech miss a great opertunity here by not includeing a 27" draw on the Contitution bow.Maintaining a 28" draw.I feel they lost quite a few sales on the account of the 28" draw.On this bow moddle.



I did not buy a Pro40 target bow this year because I heard the rumor on the Constitution. Now I find out I cannot shoot the the thing because of my 26 1/2" draw. Oh well. I will still get the one ATA size down, whatever its called.


----------



## walks with a gi

There's been a ton of guys that have wanted a long draw length Bowtech for a long time! Now you little guys are mad that you can't shoot the same bow  Try the Independence or Old Glory


----------



## Tarbaby

Milhouse, I just left the Bow Tech dealer in my area. The Old Glory will be in 31" draw. Its IBO is up to 323 according to the dealer guide I saw.


----------



## Tarbaby

Milhouse, I just left the Bow Tech dealer in my area. The Old Glory will be in 31" draw. Its IBO is up to 323 according to the dealer guide I saw. The cams/wheels are known as Binary cams. They require no tuning.


----------



## 3D bowman

I have been interested in the bowtechs. I would like to see some FPS tests from the new bows utilizing ATA draw lengths at IBO specs. I shoot Hoyt and would like to compare the Bowtech Equalizer system to Hoyts Spiral cams. I get a true 309 FPS at 60# with a 300 gr arrow out of my Ultratec spiral XT2000. It is just shy of 7" brace height at 6 15/16th and is 37" axle to axle.


----------



## PJBinMI

*speed*

Pat,
You know I love bowtech and continue to shoot them. I want to shoot the Old Glory at 27.5" and stay at 290 or above, getting 288 out of my Patroit at the same specs but would like to go alittle longer(tried a SlayR--- hated it but it was fast). And I do like the sounds of the new cam, dying to shoot it. If it doesn't produce I'm going to try the mathews Switchback this year.
I'm glad they are using "full string specs" thats very cool so "bare the speed is aprox 10-15fps faster?? I may have to drop the loop and shoot off the string at 28"  Could I get 300fps at 28" ??? 5grains/inch
Can you make sure MJC gets one soon seen as I'm the only Bowtech guy left there!.

Thanks Pat.





BowTech_Shooter said:


> Pat,
> 
> Actually Matt is very right. In the past you would have been right but this year the advertised speeds and the birth certificate speeds are tested with the Hush Kit, VibraBlocks, 2 eliminator buttons and a brass nock installed. This is to help eliminate some confusion we had in the past.
> 
> What specs are you going to be testing the Old Glory at to try to get 290 out of it. (P.S. better take your check book)
> 
> Regards, Pat


----------



## rhenj

PJBinMI said:


> Pat,
> You know I love bowtech and continue to shoot them. I want to shoot the Old Glory at 27.5" and stay at 290 or above, getting 288 out of my Patroit at the same specs but would like to go alittle longer(tried a SlayR--- hated it but it was fast). And I do like the sounds of the new cam, dying to shoot it. If it doesn't produce I'm going to try the mathews Switchback this year.
> I'm glad they are using "full string specs" thats very cool so "bare the speed is aprox 10-15fps faster?? I may have to drop the loop and shoot off the string at 28"  Could I get 300fps at 28" ??? 5grains/inch
> Can you make sure MJC gets one soon seen as I'm the only Bowtech guy left there!.
> 
> Thanks Pat.


300 at 28#? Definately possible. I am waiting for my Allegiance to come in, but I looked at a Defender last week and it said that it shot 304 at the factory with a 28" draw length, 70# and 350 grain arrow. Almost scared to see what the 100# Allegiance will do.


----------



## cbeegle

*Increments of Equalizer cams*

What increments will the draw length specific Equalizer cams come in? One inch increments or 1/2 inch increments.


----------



## Bow1

*Based on what I got.*

You can get them to the 1/2. I just got my old glory and it came in at 29.5. Exactly what I ordered.

Keith


----------



## Tarbaby

Yep, I was told they are specific draw lenghts.


----------



## cj.9

Bow1 , How about a short review of the Old Glory?


----------



## Bow1

*I gave one its under "Got my old glory today"*

I gave one its under "Got my old glory today" in General Archery Discussion.
Do a search under my user name bow1 and it will be faster. The bow is amazing. The bow is so sweet it is sick. Read my post.

Keith


----------



## walks with a gi

*Got my Allegiance today!!!*

I haven't set it up or shot it yet but will tomorrow!!! Heere's a pic to tease ya'll


----------



## CWG

Very nice. Very nice.
Bowtech makes an excellent bow.


----------



## Mr. October

jonnybow said:


> Dakota, I have owned and enjoyed an Oneida in the past and am fairly familiar with the workings of the cams on their bows. The way their limbs and cables are setup is unlike any other I've seen. The Oneida almost works as a lever system due to the limbs being "hinged" rather than conventional limbs flexing and having concentrics at the tips doing the work. Yes, the "cams" on the Oneida do work together but the system isn't anything like the Equalizer system in design. The Oneida is actually more complex and timing is an issue with their setup.
> 
> You really need to go to the local shop and look at this setup yourself. You'll understand how it works and what we are talking about when you can see what it is and watch it shoot.
> 
> It's always been difficult for me to visualize anything without seeing it work and watching how it works. Believe me, this cam system is unlike anything else.
> 
> Jon


I'll guess I'll have to wait and see a new bowtech because I can't understand how "different" it could be. Two cams kept in time with each other by a cable that is not attached to the bow. I'll agree that Oneida employs a lever system vs. the Bowtech the cams at the end of the limbs but the timing system just can't be that different.


----------



## Tejas Raz

It wouldn't be in the timing, but in the force/draw curve that you would feel the differences with this new cam. It would be interesting to see this one stacked up on a graph with others and compare the nuances.


----------



## MCB_MI

Ordered a Constitution, so I'm just waiting  can't wait to see how it's going to shoot


----------



## walks with a gi

Shot mine through the chrono today and after looking at the numbers, this bow shoots the same speeds as my '03 Pro 40 Dually  
Here's what I got outside at 12 degrees above zero!!!!!
297 fps with a 356.2 grainer
287 fps with a 391.4 grainer
257 fps with a 284 grainer
249 fps with a 518 grain arrow
This is with a 60 pound and 29 inch draw Allegiance  
This Allegiance is shooting my last year's hunting arrows (484 grain) 10 fps faster than my "04 Justice set on 70 pounds and 29 inch draw,,,247 compared to 257!!!!!!!!

Hope you get your's soon!!!!!!!


----------



## thndrr

the cool thing with this new cam system is that it seems you can go down in draw weight, stay at 5 gr/lb. and lose very little speed...


----------



## scottland

Dropped by a local shop today, they didn't have any equalizer bows in  but they did have an '05 Liberty i shot. It is just like the '04  But still a nice bow, they only difference was the bezel on the limb pockets, and the cam/idler is now silver not black. Either way, very smooth, very quiet, good stuff.


----------



## walks with a gi

I just measured the ATA length at full draw,,, 29 5/8 inches!!!!!! Almost 2 full inches of axle travel on each limb, she's storin' some serious energy  With the 391 grain arrow, it's producing 71.53 foot pounds kinetic energy


----------



## Silver Dingo

Hey gimp, You wanna hope this horse you're floggin stores as much energy. you're sure givin it a stiff workout.


----------



## walks with a gi

*Stiff Workout is Right!!*

I stored the chrono in the basement overnight so I could check the IBO speed this morning. It was 8 degrees above zero when I took the chrono out and set it up with my Block target  With a 301.4 grain arrow the first shot read 127 fps,,, the usual thing it does with the first shot after turning it on  The next three shots read 319 fps then the chrono started doing weird things like reading .3L7 and .31C, either the battery was going into hibernation mode or the liquid crystal readout was froze  TOO FRIKKIN" COLD!!!!!!


----------



## Savannahsdad

*One Word Says It All!!*

WOW!

I shot an Allegiance today. It was everything I was hoping for, and more. Got one ordered.


----------



## CAD

Just shot an Allegiance, Defender, and a Justice today. Now it's time to decide if I want the Defender or the Justice. Can't decide between the Freedom cam or the equalizer system. decisions...decisions...


----------



## sevensixtwo187

Just picked up a Defender yesterday. Put about 20 arrows through it. just an awesome bow!!! I have always owned High Country bows up to this point but, the defender has made me forget all about 'em! I think the equalizer cams are all they are touted to be and more. Can't wait to hunt with it next week.


----------



## walks with a gi

It sure is amazing to draw the Equalizer cams and watch as the draw stop pin bottoms out on the limb and watch as you try to make the bottom cam roll over more  It just won't go any farther!!!! I can't imagine why there will be a conventional dual cam system in the future.


----------



## rogbu

*Defender?????*

Has anyone shot the defender???????? If so , give details.
Thanks,
Roger


----------



## walks with a gi

I did get a chance to shoot the Allegiance today between family get togethers  The bow did meet the birth certificate speed of 317 fps with the 301.4 grain arrow and a tied in nock set, eliminator button and kisser button. I also shot some out to 40 yards and it's as accurate and forgiving as anything I've shot at that distance. Time and long range shooting will tell me more but out to 40 yards, foam and live targets will be in very serious trouble  It's very close to shooting like my '03 Pat DC, only smoother and quieter, almost as quiet as my Justice,,,, without shooting then side to side to know for certain. The Equalizer cams are performing with the same speeds as the BlackKnight cam system on my '03 Pro 40 and '03 Pat DC's.
Well, very close; 
'03 Pat DC, 70/29 inch, 318 IBO on the BC, brace height 7 3/4 inches
'03 Pro 40 DC, 60/29 inch, 315 IBO on the BC, brace height 7 3/8 inches
'04 Pat DC, 70/29 inch, 319 IBO on the BC, brace height 7 5/8 inches
'05 Allegiance 60/29 inch, 317 IBO on the BC, brace height 7 inches
So far all these bows have met or exceded by a fps or two the stated BC IBO speeds with my chrono.


----------



## francisco

*great*

Great!
I cant wait to shoot my Old Glory and Constitution.


----------



## p-maannn

*yeeesss*

i got my allegiance and i love it so accurate


----------



## sevensixtwo187

I just picked up a Defender last week {see my post on the 23rd} I couldn't be any more impressed or pleased! Fast, quiet, smooth. Because of the little blizzard we just had here in Kentucky last week, I have only shot it twice so far.
As soon as the weather gets better I will be putting it through the paces and would be glad to let anyone know about it's performance.


----------



## HighBow

rogbu, I have both of the new Bowtech's , they have two great new bows for sure the Defender would be choice as a hunting bow and the Allegence as a target bow, very impressed with both.


----------



## Chevrolet

I think a weakness in the cam system is draw length adjustment. I'm not bashing bowtech, I shoot one, but if your shooting competition you know how important 1/8" draw length can make. How do you tweek the draw length after ordering one in a 28" cam. Also, why don't they make the constitution on something smaller than 28" I can't shoot it at 27".  What colors do they come in?


----------



## Unk Bond

*Reply to subject*



Chevrolet said:


> I think a weakness in the cam system is draw length adjustment. I'm not bashing bowtech, I shoot one, but if your shooting competition you know how important 1/8" draw length can make. How do you tweek the draw length after ordering one in a 28" cam. Also, why don't they make the constitution on something smaller than 28" I can't shoot it at 27".  What colors do they come in?


Hello
Iam in agreement with you all the way.

And to the Constitution ] I ask the same question here. And called Bowtech
And ask them and the gentalman that has answered other questions for me on the bow i now have , told me his draw lenth was 27 and he wouldn't beable
to shoot the Constitution.That they had just made one cam.
And i related to him i thought they missed a lot of sales from the 27" draw lenth archer.
And i related to him that the Constitution was the only bow out of the 14 that set its self aside to a 28" draw.

I told him that as i see it now ,i would halft to wait till there new line of bows that came out in 2006 be for i could buy one.

Well maybe if enough request is called in to them. They may decide to make another cam.
So i would suggest you give them a call .And relate to them you would like to see another cam for the Constitution to accomadate a 27" draw archer.

Later
Unk


----------



## Champion Shootr

The draw length can be shortened up to 1/2 inch by adjusting the draw stop. Not all that different from Matthews cam system. As I understand it a new set of cams will be in the $40-$60 range. They will be available in 1/2 inch incriments. Not much more than a set of modules for martin bows.


----------



## pro38_shooter

Adjusting the let-off post will affect the DL slightly, not quite 1/2. But you will be able to shorten it up in small increments. It will change your let-off though.


----------



## Rooster-1961

I have a Bowtech Liberty 60lb. with a 28 inch draw and it is the smoothest bow I have ever owned with no hand shock whatsoever. I have been looking at the 2005 Bowtech bows with the new cam system, and was considering the Allegiance. I have 3 questions on the system.

I do not understand the 2 cam system and whether it is a better option than the Liberty with the freedom cam. Could someone please help me with this?

I do not understand how the new system can give me any more speed when the IBO's are pretty close to the same? 
I know I am not going to reach those speeds unless I am at 70lbs., and pulling a 30 inch draw with the minimum weight arrow for that setup. It seems to me that the kinetic energy of the bow/arrow is more important than the speed anyway.

Is there going to be more tuning with 2 cams to keep both in sync?



I would appreciate the help as I am new to archery.

Rob


----------



## Matt / PA

*"E" cam bows*

Rooster,
the easy way to think about the performance is that the Allegiance will give you roughly 20+ fps increase over your Liberty set -up exactly the same with the same arrows. Maybe a bit more because I believe the "E" cam bows are a bit more effecient at shorter draw lengths vs. the Freedom cam.
The Liberty IBO speeds are around 304 IBO and the Allegaince is around 325 IBO.

There is a very nice tutorial on the "Equalizer Binary cam System" on Bowtech's website with video and in depth explanation of the system.
Just go to :
www.bowtecharchery.com and then click the Equalizer cam link at the bottom of the home page.
If you have any specific questions please feel free to contact me.
regards,
Matt


----------



## Rooster-1961

*Thanks Matt*

Thanks Matt for the info. I looked at the system on the Bowtech website, and even better I got to shoot an allegiance today and was very impressed. I am going to order one tomorrow.

Rob


----------



## hoytshooter23

*allegience*

at 60/29 people have been shooting 400 grain arrows at 290-300. if you were to figure brace height and ibo together you have the fastst bow made or close to it. and it is still amazingly shootable


----------



## hcgreenwich

*about the constitution*



MCB_MI said:


> Ordered a Constitution, so I'm just waiting  can't wait to see how it's going to shoot


 Let me know how the constitution shoots


----------



## Tejas Raz

hcgreenwich said:


> Let me know how the constitution shoots


Ditto!


----------



## MCB_MI

hcgreenwich I'll tell you just how it shoot as soon as it comes in, I decided to get a red one so it is taking alittle long for the colored riser, but I'm sure it will be worth the wait.


----------



## jonnybow

hoytshooter23 said:


> at 60/29 people have been shooting 400 grain arrows at 290-300. if you were to figure brace height and ibo together you have the fastst bow made or close to it. and it is still amazingly shootable



I haven't got those numbers out of a 60# Allegiance but it is fast. Maybe my chrono is way off but I'm getting 291 out of a 70/28 with a 351gr arrow with everything standard on the string plus a loop.
Plenty fast for 3D, I'll actually have to turn it down a tad.

Awesome bow none the less.

Jon


----------



## MCB_MI

Hey Johnbow we set one up at the shop last nite 72# 28" 355grn 289fps that was real smooth and noise free, very inpressed with this new cam, I like how it feels on the draw and holding


----------



## Bertsboy

I recieved a Old Glory target bow on Friday!!!
29.5 inch draw
60 lbs
305 gr. arrow
300 fps
Great shooting bow!! Here is a picture!


----------



## Unk Bond

*Reply to subject*

Hello

Nice bow set up.

Now thats what i call a archery lane.  


Later 
Unk


----------



## jonnybow

Nice looking bow Bertsboy. What happens when someone walks out that door at the end of the lane when you just released an arrow??

Jon


----------



## Bertsboy

I just yell CATCH!! LOL
No, just my wife and I and she knows better than to come on that side of the yard. LOL


----------



## mavextreme

Bertsboy said:


> she knows better



rofl!!!


----------



## MerlinApexDylan

I had some ignoramace tried to tell me the Binary equaliser system is a cam &1/2. I let him ramble on about it. Knowing in my head that facts always thwart ignorant ego maniacs. Then I went to the webpage, printed out the article on the cam system and posted it along with an article on the Cam&1/2 and a link to what a hybrid cam is. I really can't stand people with big ego's that don't know what they are talking about.

Can't wait till he reads it. I even highlighted the part that says.. "TWIN CAM"


----------



## blueshooter2

I have an Liberty that has a birth certificate that is 71# with a 350 grain arrow at 289 fps. Comparing it to other bows, it is not very fast. The bow shown on the earlier post shows Bowtech used a 300 grain arrow to get 317 fps. That is also not very fast even for 60#. Why don't they use a 400 grain arrow.


----------



## Jerry/NJ

blueshooter2 said:


> The bow shown on the earlier post shows Bowtech used a 300 grain arrow to get 317 fps. That is also not very fast even for 60#. Why don't they use a 400 grain arrow.


I beg to differ, 317 fps for a 60# and 29" draw length is dam good ! That is what my Allegiance is doing.


----------



## pdq 5oh

Jerry, look at bs2's profile. You'll immediately understand the lack of.....understanding.  

Bs2, what's your draw length? Mine at 64#, 29" shoots a 380 gr arrow 273. The Liberty was never meant to be a speed bow. But it does draw and shoot, smoother and quieter, than any other bow.
As to why BowTech doesn't use a 400 gr arrow at 60#. That's 100 gr over IBO, pretty much the industry standard for testing.

jonnybow, I've chrono'd a few Allegiances. 60#, 28", 350 gr = 286
60#, 29", 350 gr = 297. Same bow at 300 gr went 317. I'd venture to say 400 gr would be around 280.


----------



## jonnybow

pdq, you've got some quick bows there. Like I said, my 70/28 shoots a 351gr at 291fps which is plenty fast for what I'm going to use it for, I'm actually going to turn it down.

blueshooter2, like pdq said, the Liberty was and is not sold as a speed bow. It is simply the smoothest, most shock free hunting bow out there. Still plenty fast for hunting but certainly not in the upper 5% of speedbows.

Jon


----------



## Olink

Hey MerlinApexDylan (MAD for short?  ) - that Ignoramus really is 1/2 correct. Or should I say he is correct on the Cam but wrong on the 1/2. When you compare the bottom cam of the Hoyt to the Equalizer cam you will see that they are VERY similar. Ignoring any legal issues, if Hoyt were to take their lower cam and put it on the upper limb as well, and re-cable to account for the extra cable track, they would have an instant Equilizer system.

So I guess what I'm saying is if you just compare just the bottom halves of each bow the Ignoramus is correct.


----------



## RobVos

Olink,

If you did that with Hoyt cams it would appear similar, but the cable tracks are so different that the hoyt would not properly function the same way the equalizers do.


----------



## La Crosse

Olink said:


> Hey MerlinApexDylan (MAD for short?  ) - that Ignoramus really is 1/2 correct. Or should I say he is correct on the Cam but wrong on the 1/2. When you compare the bottom cam of the Hoyt to the Equalizer cam you will see that they are VERY similar. Ignoring any legal issues, if Hoyt were to take their lower cam and put it on the upper limb as well, and re-cable to account for the extra cable track, they would have an instant Equilizer system.
> 
> So I guess what I'm saying is if you just compare just the bottom halves of each bow the Ignoramus is correct.


Actually, they would have an instant disfunctional equalizer system. While they may look similar, there are some differences. If you take Hoyt lower cams and rig them together, you will get the bow halfway back and the string will go limp (the bow will likely uncable as well). The leverages are all different between the Equalizer and Cam 1/2.


----------



## Tejas Raz

La Crosse said:


> Actually, they would have an instant disfunctional equalizer system. While they may look similar, there are some differences. If you take Hoyt lower cams and rig them together, you will get the bow halfway back and the string will go limp (the bow will likely uncable as well). The leverages are all different between the Equalizer and Cam 1/2.


Then you'd have a Hoyt 1/2-a-Cam! .    



... did I really say that?!


----------



## Olink

Just to be clear, my comments on the Cam & 1/2 and Equalizer where mostly in jest. You don't get to hear the word "ignoramus" much anymore and it kind of tickled my funny bone. 

That being said, on a cursory glance there is a certain similarity between the Hoyt and Bowtech cam. Yes, there is a difference in the orientation of the middle lobe, but if you would rotate that lobe on either cam I think they are pretty darn close.

I hope Crackers doesn't mind if I used his pic from one of his posts. It is the best pic I have found of a Bowtech cam.


----------

