# Why join the NFAA?



## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

The NFAA affiliation enables insurance coverage so clubs and shoots can be promoted with limited liability. As president of the local NFAA affiliated field range, without the insurance we wouldn't have a range, shoots, youth instruction or anything else. To enjoy the maximum insurance coverage, an individual has to be a member too. I believe, I could be wrong on this, you have to be a NFAA member to compete in a NFAA event. Lastly, having your state being an NFAA affiliate allows participation in a number of state, sectional and national shoots. I really don't compete in any shoots but am a NFAA member for insurance purposes, to support my club and to support archery in general. In my state, when you pay dues to the state organization, membership in NFAA is included. I'm not sure if this is the case in the lower 48. 

You have a very geologic handle.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Cirque said:


> If I am not a professional, why should I join the NFAA?
> 
> If I only shoot a few tournaments a year, why should I join the NFAA?
> 
> ...


IMHO a very good question.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

AKRuss said:


> The NFAA affiliation enables insurance coverage so clubs and shoots can be promoted with limited liability. As president of the local NFAA affiliated field range, without the insurance we wouldn't have a range, shoots, youth instruction or anything else.


As I understand it, yes, our club purchases it's insurance through NFAA. It isn't free. But given that it is cheaper to go through the NFAA for insurance, how much of NFAA dues, is devoted to insurance?



> To enjoy the maximum insurance coverage, an individual has to be a member too.


 I think our club needs a minimum of 5 NFAA members



> I believe, I could be wrong on this, you have to be a NFAA member to compete in a NFAA event.


 To compete, yes. Otherwise you shoot as a quest. I don't have a problem with this except for two things:

1) Clubs charge more for guests to shoot (instead of advertising a discount for NFAA members) In a sense, guests are paying more but getting less (no awards) Doesn't affect me but last year my son (9 at the time) won his division at a tourney but didn't get an award because he was a guest. Sounds like BS when you tell a 9 yr old kid he has to be a member of a professional organization to win an award

2) The only field archery tournaments I attend are put on by local clubs, to support those clubs. It's an NFAA event but the NFAA doesn't do a thing to help run the shoot, so why do the clubs limit awards to NFAA members only? 



> Lastly, having your state being an NFAA affiliate allows participation in a number of state, sectional and national shoots.


What benefit does a non-competitive shooter get out of this? Why can't I just join CBH or NFAA instead of both? Why the high cost? 



> I really don't compete in any shoots but am a NFAA member for insurance purposes, to support my club and to support archery in general. In my state, when you pay dues to the state organization, membership in NFAA is included. I'm not sure if this is the case in the lower 48.


You joined for the very reasons I'd like to join. But $80 a year is too much for too little. For now I'll support my club by working on the range and helping to run our tournaments



> You have a very geologic handle.


Thanks for noticing. I'm not a geologist but you can't hike the high sierra without experiencing geology first hand and picking up a few terms


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

1. I don't believe any individual dues go to club insurance which is paid separately by the club directly to the sports insurer, SADLERS. Without some kind of liability insurance there would be no ranges other than what which parks and rec provides. Your individual membership supports the organization in general. You really can't have one without the other. 

2. Your club needs a minimum of 5 NFAA members to be an NFAA affiliate but you don't get maximum benefit from the insurance unless you personally are a member. 

3. I understand your angst but it kind of goes back to #1. I guess it's just a membership thing. Non-members aren't really in the game so they pay a little more and, yes, they get a little less. If you're really into the competition and medals thing, I'm not, you have to pay up. Complaining doesn't keep the wolf away from the door. 

4. I sort of agree with you a I'm not much of a competitor either. I do occassionally shoot NFAA indoor and sectional shoots and went to Las Vegas last year for the money shoot but didn't compete. My point is that without the affiliation, none of these shoots would be possible. 

5. Yes, dues are high. The time, energy and expense to maintain a field range is tough. Range work counts - big time. I can afford and pay the dues, am El Presidente of the local Field Range, Northwest Archers, and put in all the range work I can, although arthritic knees hold me back a bit. Guess I'm just in tall cotton. Supporting your local club with money and sweat is a good place to start. I think you'll find it grows from there. 

6. I've always been fascinated by glaciated mountains. God's crowning glory. It's what got me into geology to begin with.


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## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

*nfaa and national organizations.*

insurance discounts is a reason for a national organization. There are other reasons...how about a consistancy in a game. Field archery for instance, 28 targets at a regulated distance with a regulated size target. regulations gives you an understanding of what you and what someone else has achieved. how can you compare, if you want, your skill level of others in a different state if the states are not consistant in a shooting format?...I feel for the nine year old, however you cannot take your son up to the local football field and tell the coach that you want your son to play in the football game. there are processes that has to be met, sometimes there are dues or a small fee that has to be paid. To the best of my knowledge the nfaa is not a professional org. It is a national organization with a professsoinal division. I hope this helps.


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## Ode1891 (Aug 30, 2006)

I asked myself the same questions. I still ask myself as I write the checks. :wink: In Maryland, my membership to the State is $40, and another $40 ( I think) to NFAA--for my wife also. Then I pay club dues, so the total is about $150 for my wife and I to belong to a club, MAA, and NFAA. I too do not shoot at a seriously competitive level. 

The reason I decided to join all three is because I want to support the sport, and I think NFAA does that. The State Association tries, but they are limited. Sort of the same reason I am a member of the NRA. 

My opinion, If there were only local archery clubs, the archery world would fade quickly and formal target archery would die off completely. So I pay while I can afford to pay.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

I understand the reasons for having a national organization and I'm all for them, but I don't believe they can justify the high cost of dues. NRA, IBO, and most any other national association dues are less then half that. 

Why are you forced to join the state affiliate? This increases the cost. 

As for paying more and getting less when shooting local tournaments, I never had a problem with that until my son had his feelings hurt. If the stated goal of every club and association is to promote archery, this is a piss poor way of doing it.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I really can't answer the cost issue. Maybe someone from NFAA can? I personally don't think the cost is all that high but then my kid is out of the house and on his own, LOL. 

The local club/range, NFAA and State organizations are part of the food chain. You need them all to play. 

I'm sympathetic to your kid's plight. On the onther hand, my kid once took his class, Cadet maybe (?), and I think he still sleeps with the "State Champ" medal under his pillow - even now that he's too cool to shoot bows and arrows. If you don't ante up, you're not really playing at the table. You can always bypasss the dues and buy your own medal, but of course it's not the same thing. This is a "cirque-ular" argument. Sorry, I couldn't resist ...

I'm not sure anyone can make you feel better about your experience. However, without the organizations we'd never have shoots to win or loose. I've talked to a few folks from Europe that always say we have no idea how lucky we really are and I, for one, believe them.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

AKRuss said:


> . However, without the organizations we'd never have shoots to win or loose.


I tend to disagree here. The national organization did a good job of standardizing the sport but the shoots are mainly organized and put on by local clubs. 

Traditional shooters put on great shoots and competition seems to take a back seat to fun and the overall experience.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

It sounds like you found your answer. Trad and primitive is fun stuff. I did it for years and may go back again. The shoots certainly are fun! Always wanted to go to a rendezvous but never did. Enjoy!


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Cirque said:


> Why are you forced to join the state affiliate? This increases the cost.


Because NFAA is an organization of state associations and most of the state NFAA archery associations are organizations of clubs.

NFAA does offer a bowhunter membership without requirement to join the state association. But this membership does not include being able to participate in NFAA sanctioned tournaments at the local, state, or national level.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

There are numerous affordable options for insurance, other than NFAA. One noticeable option is offered by ASA. ASA's insurance is cheaper and also pro-rated by the number of ASA members a club has. I know of one club that is insured via QDMA and another that has insurance through an insurance company affiliated with the NRA. 

As far as the initial post, unless your club hosts a mids or NFAA sponsored shoot, NFAA is of NO value at the club level. 95% of the club membership could care less what happens at the national level. 




AKRuss said:


> The NFAA affiliation enables insurance coverage so clubs and shoots can be promoted with limited liability. As president of the local NFAA affiliated field range, without the insurance we wouldn't have a range, shoots, youth instruction or anything else. To enjoy the maximum insurance coverage, an individual has to be a member too. I believe, I could be wrong on this, you have to be a NFAA member to compete in a NFAA event. Lastly, having your state being an NFAA affiliate allows participation in a number of state, sectional and national shoots. I really don't compete in any shoots but am a NFAA member for insurance purposes, to support my club and to support archery in general. In my state, when you pay dues to the state organization, membership in NFAA is included. I'm not sure if this is the case in the lower 48.
> 
> You have a very geologic handle.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Cirque said:


> I understand the reasons for having a national organization and I'm all for them, but I don't believe they can justify the high cost of dues. NRA, IBO, and most any other national association dues are less then half that.
> 
> Why are you forced to join the state affiliate? This increases the cost.
> 
> As for paying more and getting less when shooting local tournaments, I never had a problem with that until my son had his feelings hurt. If the stated goal of every club and association is to promote archery, this is a piss poor way of doing it.


$35 fopr a membership in the national organization really isn't that much (add a bit for a second family member) state dues go of course on top of that...as for the state affiliate, somebody has to put on the shoots, they don't put themselves on...here in NC we provide the targets, awards, website to promote, and insurance for the shoots we hold as NCFAA tournaments. All that costs money. That said, our dues are not as high as yours appear to be in whatever state you are in...



Cirque said:


> I tend to disagree here. The national organization did a good job of standardizing the sport but the shoots are mainly organized and put on by local clubs.
> 
> Traditional shooters put on great shoots and competition seems to take a back seat to fun and the overall experience.


Here in NC, that is always our goal, to make sure everybody that comes out, has a good time. It is somewhat unfortunate that not everyone looks at it like that, but if you want to play for awards you need to be a member. We do give an award for guest class usually, and any cubs or youth shooters leave with something. We will not allow a non-member to be a State champion though...

There is usually a discounted membership rate for youths if you son is your real concern here (its a total of $17 here).

The reality is that in a vacuum it would very difficult for a single club to survive. It takes a local, state level, and national level effort to keep the sport of field archery going. 

I personally have been pretty un-happy with some of the stuff that has been going on in the NFAA lately, I wasn't going to join this year, but it really does take all these pieces to make this thing work IMHO...we're just going to have to work to fix these things from the inside...


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

psargeant said:


> I personally have been pretty un-happy with some of the stuff that has been going on in the NFAA lately...but it really does take all these pieces to make this thing work IMHO...we're just going to have to work to fix these things from the inside.


DITTO!

Dave


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

ultratec, I'm aware of other insurance options. I insured through the NRA one year for about twice the price although it may have been better coverage. Being a NFAA affiliate is just one option but a pretty good one. We only have the one certified NFAA field range in Alaska so it's important we maintain the range in order to hold the NFAA shoots. I agree that most members don't care about national shoots. The same group generally doesn't care about who or what it takes to maintain the range, one of my primary gripes. At least Cirque does range work ...


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

AKRuss said:


> ultratec, I'm aware of other insurance options. I insured through the NRA one year for about twice the price although it may have been better coverage.


I don't believe the club in question got their insurance from the NRA directly, but from an NRA approved/affiliated insurance. See link:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1053794003&postcount=58



AKRuss said:


> Being a NFAA affiliate is just one option but a pretty good one. We only have the one certified NFAA field range in Alaska so it's important we maintain the range in order to hold the NFAA shoots.


As you mentioned, the NFAA is one of many options and it is totally understandable that if your, or any, club is scheduled to have an NFAA sponsored shoot (I.e. indoor/outdoor *sectionals/nationals*) to have an NFAA certified range. 



AKRuss said:


> I agree that most members don't care about national shoots. The same group generally doesn't care about who or what it takes to maintain the range, one of my primary gripes. At least Cirque does range work ...


Not sure I would go as far as to generalize to that extent. I'm sure there are just as many, if not more, nationally competitive slackers as there are non-competitive slackers. Lots of slackers to go around.:tongue:


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

ultratec00, 

1. Yep, same as NFAA's coverage. 
2. Yep
3. Only a small percentage of club members do any range work what-so-ever. The few that do are mostly NFAA competitors. My wife has observed that most of the range work has fallen to the old and decrepit but I don't know who she's referring too. Occassionally I have to listen to someone complain about the condition of the range only to find out they not only don't help out but don't pay dues, grrr. Targets and bales don't fall from heaven. This is my 10th year as a club officer and 8th year as president and I've become a bit cynical, imagine that. 

Cheers


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## Erbowman (Mar 24, 2004)

I believe the NFAA charge is only $35. Your state is setting the rest. You might want to see what the state is doing for you instead of the NFAA


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

We have an interesting situation here in PA. The most popular State organization, the PSAA, is not affiliated with any organization. Many of our State competitive shooters have no interest in the NFAA or National events and balked at paying to join the national org. in order to be a member of the State org. So the PSAA dropped its NFAA affiliation. The PSAA governs all of our shoots (field, indoor, outdoor target, etc.) The rule set is very similar to the NFAA. 

I am currently an NAA member. Next year I will probably drop that membership and re-join the NFAA. I actually prefer the rule set of the NAA but as the NAA focuses harder and harder on Olympic medals there is less and less reason for an adult compound shooter with no kids to be a member. So I'll probably join the NFAA next year so I am vaguely eligible to shoot in both NFAA and NAA events (they have a reciprocal agreement).


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Mr. October said:


> We have an interesting situation here in PA. The most popular State organization, the PSAA, is not affiliated with any organization. Many of our State competitive shooters have no interest in the NFAA or National events and balked at paying to join the national org. in order to be a member of the State org. So the PSAA dropped its NFAA affiliation. The PSAA governs all of our shoots (field, indoor, outdoor target, etc.) The rule set is very similar to the NFAA.


Yep, grew up in PA and made many a pilgrimage to the state indoors in harrisburg. Firm believer that the state organization should be neutral and not affiliated with ANY of the national organizations. The focus should be on promoting ALL of archery and not promoting one format or agenda over another.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

AKRuss;1053843595 said:


> I agree that most members don't care about national shoots. The same group generally doesn't care about who or what it takes to maintain the range, one of my primary gripes.


 I agree with the former but we seem to have the opposite problem when it comes to who cares about maintaining the our range.



psargeant said:


> $35 for a membership in the national organization really isn't that much


 I agree, and I'd join if I was given the freedom to join the state, national, or both organizations instead of being forced to join both.



> as for the state affiliate, somebody has to put on the shoots, they don't put themselves on


 The shoots I am referring to may be NFAA sanctioned field events but they are put on by clubs. Regardless, those shoots are money makers and don't need my dues to support them.



> There is usually a discounted membership rate for youths if you son is your real concern here (its a total of $17 here).


 How many pee wees, cubs, and youths are actually competitive shooters? Aren't we punishing a large class of kids to benefit a minority? How does this promote archery when we turn away our young ones that are already shooting???




> The reality is that in a vacuum it would very difficult for a single club to survive. It takes a local, state level, and national level effort to keep the sport of field archery going.


I'm not in disagreement here, but I'd love for someone to convince me that the state and national organizations are doing something to keep our club going.



ARKuss said:


> 3. Only a small percentage of club members do any range work what-so-ever. The few that do are mostly NFAA competitors. My wife has observed that most of the range work has fallen to the old and decrepit but I don't know who she's referring too. Occasionally I have to listen to someone complain about the condition of the range only to find out they not only don't help out but don't pay dues, grrr. Targets and bales don't fall from heaven. This is my 10th year as a club officer and 8th year as president and I've become a bit cynical, imagine that.


It seems we have the same problems. It's comforting to know that my club isn't special in that respect


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## kidnutso (Aug 29, 2004)

Mr. October said:


> We have an interesting situation here in PA. The most popular State organization, the PSAA, is not affiliated with any organization. Many of our State competitive shooters have no interest in the NFAA or National events and balked at paying to join the national org. in order to be a member of the State org. So the PSAA dropped its NFAA affiliation. The PSAA governs all of our shoots (field, indoor, outdoor target, etc.) The rule set is very similar to the NFAA.



Hey, but we do have a state organization affiliated with the NFAA. That's the PA Field and Target Archers (PFATA). We have a PFATA State Indoor and PFATA State Field Championship every year. These are shot under the sanctions and rules of the NFAA. This is in addition to the PSAA shoots.

The PFATA is a growing organization and we hope to get stronger in the future. PA Residents who join the NFAA automatically get membership in the PFATA. Total price is 45 bucks. You can also join the PFATA if you are an NAA member or a member of the NFAA in another state. That cost would be 10 bucks to join. 

I belong to the PSAA and the NFAA/PFATA. I don't mind paying the dues necessary to belong to these three organizations as well as the two different clubs I belong too. Even if I didn't shoot competively (limited basis), I would still belong to these organizations because I think this is the best way I can, as an individual, support and promote the sport of archery. I'm not in it for what these organizations can do for me. I'm in it to help archery survive as a sport.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

kidnutso said:


> I don't mind paying the dues necessary to belong to these three organizations as well as the two different clubs I belong too. Even if I didn't shoot competively (limited basis), I would still belong to these organizations because I think this is the best way I can, as an individual, support and promote the sport of archery. I'm not in it for what these organizations can do for me. I'm in it to help archery survive as a sport.


Well said Kid! Bravo and Ditto!!

Dave


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

kidnutso said:


> Hey, but we do have a state organization affiliated with the NFAA. That's the PA Field and Target Archers (PFATA). We have a PFATA State Indoor and PFATA State Field Championship every year. These are shot under the sanctions and rules of the NFAA. This is in addition to the PSAA shoots.
> 
> The PFATA is a growing organization and we hope to get stronger in the future. PA Residents who join the NFAA automatically get membership in the PFATA. Total price is 45 bucks. You can also join the PFATA if you are an NAA member or a member of the NFAA in another state. That cost would be 10 bucks to join.
> 
> I belong to the PSAA and the NFAA/PFATA. I don't mind paying the dues necessary to belong to these three organizations as well as the two different clubs I belong too. Even if I didn't shoot competively (limited basis), I would still belong to these organizations because I think this is the best way I can, as an individual, support and promote the sport of archery. I'm not in it for what these organizations can do for me. I'm in it to help archery survive as a sport.


I'm familiar with the PFATA. I was a member for a year. I shoot as much as I can but struggle to make the state & regional shoots of one organization let alone two. 

However, I AM currently an NAA member and didn't realize you could apply that to PFATA membership. For $10.00 I might re-up. I still think it is a tad silly that we have two State target orgs. Why is everything in Archery so factious?


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

kidnutso said:


> I don't mind paying the dues necessary to belong to these three organizations as well as the two different clubs I belong too.


 I do mind. I think everyone who pays money to the NFAA or it's affiliates should be equally represented. It seems here that professional shooters or state level competitive shooters are reaping most of the benefits.



> I think this is the best way I can, as an individual, support and promote the sport of archery.


 There are many ways to promote archery and forking over your money to a group that has archery in it's title is the least of which I'd choose. The best way anyone can support and promote the sport is to be an active participant and to participate in an honorable fashion. You do this by joining a local club and working on the range and running your own shoots. You also do this by participating in other shoots, supporting other clubs, groups, or businesses whether it's as an individual or a representative of your club. Or you do this by being an ethical bowhunter or shooter.



> I'm not in it for what these organizations can do for me.


 Maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly. It's not so much what i want from the NFAA, it's where do they justify forcing me to join two groups at such a considerable cost.



AKRuss said:


> Only a small percentage of club members do any range work what-so-ever. The few that do are mostly NFAA competitors.


 We seem to have the opposite condition in our area. The NFAA competitors don't join or don't work.



> My wife has observed that most of the range work has fallen to the old and decrepit but I don't know who she's referring too. Occasionally I have to listen to someone complain about the condition of the range only to find out they not only don't help out but don't pay dues, grrr. Targets and bales don't fall from heaven. This is my 10th year as a club officer and 8th year as president and I've become a bit cynical, imagine that.
> 
> Cheers


I certainly understand this statement:thumbs_up



psargeant said:


> $35 for a membership in the national organization really isn't that much (add a bit for a second family member) state dues go of course on top of that


 It's somewhere in the nature of 80-90 bucks a year for me if I want a family membership in NFAA/CBH that's ridiculous. Someone explain to me how the NFAA/CBH is promoting archery when they are turning away families that may want to join, shoot at local shoots and have a chance for their kids to place but don't. I'd rather buy a few dozen shafts and make my kids some arrows with that money



> ...as for the state affiliate, somebody has to put on the shoots, they don't put themselves on...... All that costs money.


.
Most of the shoots are put on by clubs and every shoot I know of turns a profit...so I still don't see the justification for high dues


Since I am a a member of a local club that puts on an NFAA field event, I'm doing more the the NFAA then someone who is paying money for a membership and never does anything but shoot. Maybe the NFAA/CBH should give us a cut rate for membership


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

Test


why have the two posts from the past couple days not shown up yet?


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## kidnutso (Aug 29, 2004)

Cirque said:


> I do mind. I think everyone who pays money to the NFAA or it's affiliates should be equally represented. It seems here that professional shooters or state level competitive shooters are reaping most of the benefits.


You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. And this is just what my statements are...opinions. Maybe that's the way it is in CA. But I think it's how you look at it. Yes, the pros get the attention because putting on the big shoots requires support and sponsorship from the archery manufactuers. And those manufacturers cater to the pros. As you well know, nothing comes cheap these days. But I think the NFAA and my state supports everyone equally well. Maybe, if you've not, you should join and attend some of the NFAA Sectional and National shoots sometime before you form your opinions.



Cirque said:


> The best way anyone can support and promote the sport is to be an active participant and to participate in an honorable fashion. You do this by joining a local club and working on the range and running your own shoots. You also do this by participating in other shoots, supporting other clubs, groups, or businesses whether it's as an individual or a representative of your club.


I don't disagree with you at all about joining a local club to support archery, as well as supporting other local clubs shoots. And I tell you what, I'm not braggining or tooting my own horn, but I think you'd be hard pressed to be a more active participant than I am. I belong not only to a local club, but to two local clubs. And I might add, I'm secretary in both of these clubs. I work at all the clubs' work parties. Indoors and out. I shoot in both clubs' leagues. I shoot in all the clubs' shoots. And in one club, I also coordinate and run all the shoots we have, including local, NFAA and PFATA sponsored events. I put out a monthly newsletter for one of the clubs I belong to. I shoot at a local shoot other than my club a minimum of twice a month and more when possible. I am also the VP of our State Regional organization (not affiliated with the NFAA) and on the Board of Directors for that state organization. But I still think it's very important to belong to and support our National Organizations. If you only hunt or shoot 3D, then maybe the NFAA is not for you. There's the IBO and ASA in those cases. But if you're into shooting outdoor target and field, I think the NFAA can't be beat. 




Cirque said:


> Since I am a a member of a local club that puts on an NFAA field event, I'm doing more the the NFAA then someone who is paying money for a membership and never does anything but shoot. Maybe the NFAA/CBH should give us a cut rate for membership


I personally (my opinion again) don't think that $90 bucks a year for a full family membership with the NFAA and your state organization is that bad. Being an officer in both clubs the clubs I belong too, I'm not required to pay dues. But because my money helps support those clubs, I don't take advantage of those perks. I pay the dues anyway. Counting those two memberships and the NFAA and our two state organizations, my dues for a SINGLE Membership come to $150.00. And personally, I still think it's a bargin.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Cirque said:


> I do mind. I think everyone who pays money to the NFAA or it's affiliates should be equally represented. It seems here that professional shooters or state level competitive shooters are reaping most of the benefits.
> 
> There are many ways to promote archery and forking over your money to a group that has archery in it's title is the least of which I'd choose. The best way anyone can support and promote the sport is to be an active participant and to participate in an honorable fashion. You do this by joining a local club and working on the range and running your own shoots. You also do this by participating in other shoots, supporting other clubs, groups, or businesses whether it's as an individual or a representative of your club. Or you do this by being an ethical bowhunter or shooter.
> 
> ...


Cirque;

I want you to realize something...I'm not trying to convince you to join your state organization. It ain't NC and I frankly don't care whether you join or not. I do want you to realize that without the NFAA and your state organization, there would be no field archery...the name of the game is, if you want to play the game and compete for awards at a state championship, pay your dues like everybody else. If you want to win you club championship, don't opay your dues and go shoot at your club. 

Before you go on another rant about helping support by working etc...Check my signature...oh and me and my 9 YO (6 at the time) cut our field range out of the forest 3 years ago, paste all the targets, do 90+% of the trimming and maintenance, etc...I've got a pretty good idea what it takes to run a local shoot...

It takes more than you think to keep your state organization running. Here in NC at least, we maintain an insurance policy to protect the officers and shooters at the sanctioned shoots independent of the club's policy, we provide targets, awards, and a website to promote the shoots. All that takes $$... 

Even those organizations that are successful on a state level (Like the VBA and PSAA) were once NFAA affiliates...

As for representation, that is your own fault. All you need to do is let your state director know how you feel..


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## tabarch (Sep 20, 2006)

psargeant said:


> Cirque;
> 
> I want you to realize something...I'm not trying to convince you to join your state organization. It ain't NC and I frankly don't care whether you join or not. I do want you to realize that without the NFAA and your state organization, there would be no field archery...the name of the game is, if you want to play the game and compete for awards at a state championship, pay your dues like everybody else. If you want to win you club championship, don't opay your dues and go shoot at your club.
> 
> ...


Great post psargeant


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## fmoss3 (Apr 20, 2003)

used to be that a NFAA member had insurance on himself, if he had a accident while hunting( shooting farmer Brown's cow or damaging his crop). I don't know if that still applies. When the club had NFAA liability coverage the club was covered and the archer that did the shooting at a santioned event were both covered.
At state and sectional tournies, only NFAA and State members can when top awards, be state champion or sectional champion.
First member cost either $40 or $45. second member cost $2.00, third member $1.00
Frank


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## therick (Jun 16, 2008)

Members who belong to local nfaa chapters have a right to know how their membership dues are distributed. Here in Maine we post an annual financial report in an attempt to answer some of these questions. Members can then see the costs associated with running events, and then determine whether 
it makes sense to join.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

psargeant said:


> Cirque;
> 
> I want you to realize something...I'm not trying to convince you to join your state organization. It ain't NC and I frankly don't care whether you join or not. I do want you to realize that without the NFAA and your state organization, there would be no field archery...the name of the game is, if you want to play the game and compete for awards at a state championship, pay your dues like everybody else. If you want to win you club championship, don't opay your dues and go shoot at your club.
> 
> ...


Well said sarg.

Here is my $0.02 worth. If you believe in supporting Field archery, then join. If you don't, then keep your hard earned dollars. I've belonged to the NRA and IBO for a number of years. Do I participate in their events? No. Do I believe in what they represent? Absolutely. 

I get tired of those who always ask the question "What do I get? What are they gonna do for me?" Give me a break. If we didn't have clubs here in Maryland that participated in Field archery, maintained ranges and belonged to the NFAA and MAA (Maryland Archery Association) then even the casual archer or bowhunter wouldn't have a place to shoot. A number of our clubs are required to maintain their ranges for public use *FREE OF CHARGE*. We can debate the pros and cons on that issue at a later date, but it's a nice perk for many here in this State.

Bottom line...without the NFAA and their sanctioned clubs...the only place to shoot would be my own back yard.


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

Crique,

Some of what the CBH/SAA does for it's members:

Four state championship tournaments anually, State Indoor, Field, Target and Broadhead. Hundreds of archers participate in these tournaments. Most are there just for the participation and the challenge with no chance of bringing home anything other than fond memories.

Keeps records for those trounaments.

Oversees the California Archery Hall Of Fame.

Publishes a monthly newsletter keeping everyone up to date on tournaments and other important archery news.

The legislative arm works to protect archery and bowhunting in the state. They attend and participate in Fish & Game meetings and monitor proposals. And, when Burbank outlawed all shooting they spent thousands of dollars trying to save that range.

Big Game and Small Game clubs and awards to promote bowhunting and recognize outstanding achievment.

Scholarship opportunities for young archers.

Affiliated with and promote the IBEP.

Their web site provides maps to most of the ranges in the state.

And, much, much more.

While attending shoots and supporting local clubs is important it is only one part of the huge job of promoting and protecting the future of our sport.


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## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

*state orgs.*

hmm. how come state organizations that do not wish to join the national organizations seem to mirror them? why doesn't the state organizations come up with there own archery game, use there own target, use there own shooting distances and there own scoring? why would you rebel then mirror the national organizations archery game. the national organization is represented everytime thier target is used. just my opinion.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

I think Cirque should just quit archery and take up golf or bowling.


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## Erbowman (Mar 24, 2004)

I think its a legitimate question but you can't play both sides. I agree that $80 a year is high to pay if you don't compete and just shoot for fun. I can sympathize about his son not winning the award b/c he was not a member but that would make him a competitor and not just shooting for fun. 
Cirque, I think its great that you participate in your local club and help out. We have many people at our club that does a lot of work around the club but rarely competes. But in every organization you have to be a member if you want to compete, at least at the larger tournaments like state and national level. However, if its a small/local shoot everyone can compete for the same price and be ellidgible for awards in my area.

I don't mind paying my cost. In TN the total for both state and NFAA is only $45.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

Spotshooter2 said:


> I think Cirque should just quit archery and take up golf or bowling.


I think you should read more and type less because you haven't paid attention to what I have said.


I guess I'm comparing the NFAA to the NRA in terms of services and costs. The NRA doesn't force you to join the state affiliate. The NRA provides insurance, defends gun use on the national and state level, and they support local, state, national and international events. But the NRA doesn't cater to competivie shooters only, they welcome all shooters. There is more to archery then competition, it's a shame the qualities that attract me to the sport seem to be brushed off here as less important.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Cirque said:


> I think you should read more and type less because you haven't paid attention to what I have said.
> 
> 
> I guess I'm comparing the NFAA to the NRA in terms of services and costs. The NRA doesn't force you to join the state affiliate. The NRA provides insurance, defends gun use on the national and state level, and they support local, state, national and international events. But the NRA doesn't cater to competivie shooters only, they welcome all shooters. There is more to archery then competition, it's a shame the qualities that attract me to the sport seem to be brushed off here as less important.


Once again, Cirque, you have missed the boat...The NFAA provides all those same things, they have a bowhunter only membership (you don't have to join your state org for that), but if you want to compete for awards at a state championship, you need to join your state association...

I'll say it again, I don't really care what you do...go take up competitive golf, boating, racing, whatever you want...I think what you'll find is that membership in your state association and the costs of being a competitive archer are a relative bargain to the costs of being competitive in other sports...


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

Hey guys, we're getting a little carried away. Cirque has expressed some disatisfaction with a recent experience and is looking for other opinions. Surely we can put in our 2 cents without suggesting he change sports.


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## itchyfinger (Jun 14, 2007)

Cirque said:


> If I am not a professional, why should I join the NFAA?
> 
> If I only shoot a few tournaments a year, why should I join the NFAA?
> 
> ...



Cause they send you sweet stickers :tongue:


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

psargeant said:


> Once again, Cirque, you have missed the boat...The NFAA provides all those same things, they have a bowhunter only membership (you don't have to join your state org for that), but if you want to compete for awards at a state championship, you need to join your state association...


 No i haven't missed the boat. Why can I not get a family membership unless I join the state association? NFAA is saying my family is not important to them unless I am a competitive shooter. Why are they excluding people? The only answer is that they cater to the competive shooters instead of supporting all uses of the bow.

Does the NFAA exist solely for field archery? And if so, is it solely for those that put competition first?



> I'll say it again, I don't really care what you do...*go take up competitive golf, boating, racing, whatever you want*...I think what you'll find is that membership in your state association and the costs of being a competitive archer are a relative bargain to the costs of being competitive in other sports...


Thank you for supporting my argument


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Cirque said:


> No i haven't missed the boat. Why can I not get a family membership unless I join the state association? NFAA is saying my family is not important to them unless I am a competitive shooter. Why are they excluding people? The only answer is that they cater to the competive shooters instead of supporting all uses of the bow.
> 
> Does the NFAA exist solely for field archery? And if so, is it solely for those that put competition first?
> 
> Thank you for supporting my argument


Not sure that's what I did, it was taken a bit out of context. My point was Archery as a competitive sport is still a relative bargain...Just one last question, if you don't want to compete, why do you need a family membership??? I'm not entirely sure there isn't a family bowhunter membership (not sure there is either)...

The NFAA is primarily an organization for competitive archers. If you don't choose to compete, I don't see a lot of value in it either...


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

Cirque said:


> No i haven't missed the boat. Why can I not get a family membership unless I join the state association? NFAA is saying my family is not important to them unless I am a competitive shooter. Why are they excluding people? The only answer is that they cater to the competive shooters instead of supporting all uses of the bow.
> 
> Does the NFAA exist solely for field archery? And if so, is it solely for those that put competition first?
> 
> Thank you for supporting my argument


Cirque,

You said that you didn't want to join the state association, that you thought that it didn't do anything for you if you weren't a competitive shooter. 

I detailed just a small part of what the CBH/SAA (California Bowmen Hunters/State Archery Association) does for it's members. Info that was readily available on their web site. Over the years they've done much more including bailing out local clubs when they had problems bigger than they could handle themselves.

The NFAA is first and foremost a tournament organization. That is it's primary function. But, if you spend some time on their web site and study their history I think you'll find they do more than that. In fact, they do things very similar to what the CBH does. Among those, youth archery programs, promote and protect bowhunting rights, scholarship opportunities and a certified coaching program.

You continually compare the NFAA and the NRA but they are not that similar organizations. As I said, the NFAA's primary function is as a tournament organization. It's also a fraction of the size of the NRA which limits its abilities. Fewer people means fewer dollars that have to be spread thinner. How much are you going to get out the dues of probably less than 10,000 members? I'm not apologizing for the NFAA. I think it does a fine job. Just don't expect an organzation of that size to be as affective as the NRA.

You continually say that you are not a competitve archer. How do you define competitive? The truth is that you are a competitive archer. If you go to tournments you are competing. And, wasn't it your sons lack of award what prompted this whole discussion? You may be a more casual competitor than many but you're still a competitor.

I know that $80 can be a lot of money for some people. Me included sometimes. But I still think it's a small price to pay for what the CBH and the NFAA do. Without them there would be virtually no tournaments in California. 

You mentioned in one post that some of the trad groups put on tournaments just fine without the NFAA and that's true as far as it goes. But, the truth is that I'll bet every one of those shoots is held at NFAA affiliated clubs. Clubs that wouldn't exist without the NFAA.

Join. The look on your sons face when he brings home a ribbon will be well worth joining.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

As someone already said , dont join the NFAA or your state and just shoot local shoots. Not all shoots do you have to belong to either organization to win awards. Seems to me you should have more beef with your state organiztion than the NFAA since the NFAA's take is only 35 dollars and adding more family members is cheap. Dont know what else you can do cheaper but good luck finding it.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

frank_jones said:


> hmm. how come state organizations that do not wish to join the national organizations seem to mirror them? why doesn't the state organizations come up with there own archery game, use there own target, use there own shooting distances and there own scoring? why would you rebel then mirror the national organizations archery game. the national organization is represented everytime thier target is used. just my opinion.


Frank . . . it would be silly to do otherwise. Why would an independent State org. have an entirely different and incompatible ruleset? That precludes shooters from out of State or those that shoot both State and National events from competing in one or the other. 

The PSAA is not an NFAA affiliate because the vast majority of PSAA members had no interest whatsoever in National level shoots and balked at joining a National organization that they would never participate in. 

There are some slight differences in rules although less now days then a couple years ago. Up until 2 or 3 years ago PSAA BHUNL (same as NFAA BHFS) was 4 pins and no level. This fall they attempted to set an arrow limit of 2613 but the membership balked because they tried to do it too close to indoor season after everyone had already went to 2712s. So for now that is rescinded. 

Otherwise PSAA has a full set of rules & regulations governing indoor target archery, outdoor target archery, 3d, and field. The vast majority of shoots in PA follow PSAA rules and there are MANY PSAA members that will never shoot Louisville or any other National shoot. However, it will be interesting to see what happens now that Field Nationals will be in Mechanicsburg this year. 

The point is it is NOT silly or selfish for a State organization to be independent, but it would be quite silly for them to adapt a radically different set of rules.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

One other thought here. Apparently this is year 3 in the 3-year bid Louisville has for Indoor Nationals. Evidently, the two bids for the next 3 years are between somewhere in Colorado and Louisville. What with the NFAA's demolition of the A/C Archery Classic and subsequent move of the last vestiges of that shoot to South Dakota, if Indoor Nationals moves to Colorado, that would mean that after Field Nats in Mechanicsburg that the NFAA will have completely abandoned the East Coast. I hope that doesn't happen. That vote will probably decide for me whether I join the NFAA next year or just re-up with the NAA.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Mr. October said:


> One other thought here. Apparently this is year 3 in the 3-year bid Louisville has for Indoor Nationals. Evidently, the two bids for the next 3 years are between somewhere in Colorado and Louisville. What with the NFAA's demolition of the A/C Archery Classic and subsequent move of the last vestiges of that shoot to South Dakota, if Indoor Nationals moves to Colorado, that would mean that after Field Nats in Mechanicsburg that the NFAA will have completely abandoned the East Coast. I hope that doesn't happen. That vote will probably decide for me whether I join the NFAA next year or just re-up with the NAA.


have to wait and see, but I got the same thoughts. The futher west they get, the more it looks like I'll be inventing a few major shoots for me up your way. Unless I just give it up or shoot a few local events.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

You are absolutely correct. I have brought this up time and time again. Those that choose to shoot at the national level DO NOT represent the majority of archers. More power to them, but we're only talking maybe 3-5% of the shooters. The focus should be on generating local interest, which in turn will generate a few (and I mean FEW) individuals that want to go on and compete at the national level. 

IMHO, a state org is better off with NO national affiliations. The primary goals of the state org should be to promote ALL of archery, coordinate club schedules, and not promote one format or organization over another. It should be NONE of the state org's business where a club gets its insurance. That they have insurance, absolutely, where they get it, absolutely NOT. 

There is absolutely no reason why a state organization cannot have a state championship w/o a national affiliation. The guidelines are there to follow. Difference being the only requirement is membership in the state org, which is not unreasonable. If you want to have a state championship field shoot, or indoor championship, have one. Same goes with 3d. Have the 3Ders decide which org rules to follow. Seems pretty simple to me. If the national orgs still want to come in and sponsor a tournament, let them as long as they coordinate through the state for scheduling.

There's been way too much focus on "how it used to be", etc. People better wake up to the here and now. The archery base is weak and the key is to do what is necessary to induce participation. You don't make it harder for a person to participate, you make it easier. Once again I will reiterate that NFAA has done NOTHING to keep my club viable. As far as the "state affiliate (I.e. MAA)", the only influence they have at the club level is maintaining the shoot schedule (and that influence has been VERY debatable), which has NOTHING to do with NFAA nor being affiliated with NFAA. It's those clowns that still force each club to have 5 NFAA members; as well as, club affiliation to shoot for a state title. One look at the active shooters per club and participation at state held events can tell ya, IT AIN'T WORKING. While that may be a state affiliation issue, they are still associated with the NFAA. Utterly ridiculous.



Mr. October said:


> Frank . . . it would be silly to do otherwise. Why would an independent State org. have an entirely different and incompatible ruleset? That precludes shooters from out of State or those that shoot both State and National events from competing in one or the other.
> 
> The PSAA is not an NFAA affiliate because the vast majority of PSAA members had no interest whatsoever in National level shoots and balked at joining a National organization that they would never participate in.
> 
> ...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I was about to send in my NFAA fee................. About the time I put the NFAA's organizational circle salute out of my mind someone has to bring it back up! Now I understand why the NFAA leadership dislikes AT so much. The less people know about the NFAA the better off they are....................


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> I was about to send in my NFAA fee................. About the time I put the NFAA's organizational circle salute out of my mind someone has to bring it back up! Now I understand why the NFAA leadership dislikes AT so much. The less people know about the NFAA the better off they are....................



My thoughts on the NFAA leadership.
I believe the NFAA leadership core is doing what they believe is best for Archery as a whole for the long haul. 
I also believe the NFAA leadership core would like to run NFAA as a private business for profit as they do the WAF they created. and that's a problem for them..


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Bees said:


> My thoughts on the NFAA leadership.
> I believe the NFAA leadership core is doing what they believe is best for Archery as a whole for the long haul.
> I also believe the NFAA leadership core would like to run NFAA as a private business for profit as they do the WAF they created. and that's a problem for them..


Yea, it kinda' sucks for the Cullinator. President of a non-profit org. and having to listen to all the belly aching about running the NFAA as though it's the "Yankton Archery Organization". He isn't President of the NFAA he OWNS the NFAA! If folks don't believe it then they have their heads stuck in the sand. From the size of the arrow that you shoot to the physical location of the NFAA HE decides........................


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just took a look over. Some of you are close and some way off base.
First, the NFAA insurance program is pro rated, not the ASA. (Our club is ASA member club - $370 flat, includes 10 memberships (send in earlier enough and get -1- additional membership free), and insurance which includes additionally insured (property owner). Yes, I was stunned with this, but happily, we have been a ASA club for some time now. Note; ASA offers liability insurance to members for $5.00.

Savings? If I remember correctly, the NFAA insurance program was $365 plus $6.80 for every member exceeding 60 members. For our club total cost was; $1395.00. NOTE: If your Constitution has family included in membership you have to include them for the insurance cost. This was our case. So $1395 - $370 = $1025 savings.

Illinois is one of the cheapest states for dues in the NFAA - $60 for membership plus additional cost for family members.

For a club that is 3D only joining the NFAA is overly expensive. The NFAA state chapter here, the IAA, does not have 3D on a Championship basis. They do have two Rendzvous that are suppose to be "get togethers/ Fun shoots. Last I checked, the high was about 8 NFAA attending and the rest the club's normal local shooters. Here, the club doesn't pay for these 8, but for all shooters attending. Normal charge for hosting a event is; Club pays for all awards (no problem with me) and 25% of gross intake after expenses - was 30%. Note; 3D clubs were not allowed expenses. IAA bias?

For the above; Our club tried to host and continue the then 3D Championship and keep it bringing in money for the IAA. Our offer was to pay all awards and a flat fee. The flat fee was most any other IAA club ever paid - We just weren't going to pay twice that for "our" local shooters attending the event. We were denied and the IAA lost a member club, 5 members and the money for hosting the 3D Championship. The 3D Championship was eliminated after another club lost their a__. We dropped the IAA/NFAA.

Note; Since I have no longer been a Central Board member the IAA has chosen not to send out the Constitution/By-Laws to the members or any new member just joining.

Okay, the NFAA hunter liability insurance, if still going. Give me a break. If your dumb enough to shoot Farmer Brown's cow then you should pay right out of your pocket. Probably even need your hunting license pulled and not be allowed one until passing some test - They do it over in Europe, have to pass a shooting test and sometimes more.
Some say this insurance is free. BS! Nothing is for free. Somewhere down the line someone is paying for it. Is it cheap? Sure. Odds are low that we have way too many nuts running around and shooting some farmer's livestock or tractor tires (Way it was explained to me). Explained to me; The NFAA approached Sadler insurance for this insurance and was told the NFAA needed some 20,000 members to get it free - 20,000 members. Enter the NFAA/TNUSA merger - That failed. So who's paying for this insurance beings the NFAA is below 15,000 members?

Times have changed. The IAA here has so refused to change with the times. Today, work days and work hours are not what they used to be. Some companies have Tuesday as their Monday. Flex hours are being used. Swing shifts are being used - Saturday and Sunday (rotating) falls on whatever days of the middle of the week. 
Here, the IAA still has required two day Championships. Try making one if your Saturday falls on Sunday and your Sunday falls on Monday.
I, for one, would gladly pay the full fee for a Championship if I could shoot it in one day. Travel time, gas, overnight stays, food and drinks would be cut out. Suggested was holding a Championship for a full weekend and then members could shoot on Saturday or on Sunday.

As for the local archer joining any organization is a good thing, just join the one that best fits your style of shooting or needs.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

CIRQUE, I won't bother you with all of the reasons you should join the NFAA, some have allready enlightened you on why you should. I would only remind you of a couple of things you may not have thought of or forgot. The NFAA was started by BOWHUNTERS for bowhunters, they have spent more money on saving Bowhunting in this country then all of the other Organizations combined and the last point is that the NFAA is an organization of STATES through which individuals voices are heard and acted upon. The California Bowmen are one the countrys largest and most active in the NFAA (I know since I am a former member of the CBH). I think you should reconsider your not wanting to join and instead join and help make it better. Just my thoughts.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Did that change from last year, or is new this year? As it was interpreted to me last year, ASA insurance comes with 10 memberships if the respective club has no ASA members. I was told the insurance is pro-rated for up to 10 members. If not, the club still has the option to sell back the 10 memberships at face value or at a discounted rate, which in itself can reduce the cost of insurance significantly. Either way, the upfront cost was still less than NFAA insurance, at least for out club.




SonnyThomas said:


> Just took a look over. Some of you are close and some way off base.
> First, the NFAA insurance program is pro rated, not the ASA. (Our club is ASA member club - $370 flat, includes 10 memberships (send in earlier enough and get -1- additional membership free), and insurance which includes additionally insured (property owner). Yes, I was stunned with this, but happily, we have been a ASA club for some time now. Note; ASA offers liability insurance to members for $5.00.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

6X60 said:


> Cirque,
> 
> You said that you didn't want to join the state association, that you thought that it didn't do anything for you if you weren't a competitive shooter.
> 
> I detailed just a small part of what the CBH/SAA (California Bowmen Hunters/State Archery Association) does for it's members. Info that was readily available on their web site. Over the years they've done much more including bailing out local clubs when they had problems bigger than they could handle themselves.


 Okay, great, I'll join the CBH. But wait, I think I have the same problem, I can't join CBH unless I join NFAA (An Associate membership means I pay the money but get nothing in return)



> The NFAA is first and foremost a tournament organization.


 Either it's is solely a tournament organization or it encompasses all aspects of archery. They claim to support all aspects but they discriminate against non-competitive shooters (as explained earlier)



> That is it's primary function. But, if you spend some time on their web site and study their history I think you'll find they do more than that.


 From their website under "Who is the NFAA":

_The National Field Archery Association is a non-profit corporation *dedicated to the practice of archery*. (not tournament archery??)

The NFAA was founded in 1939, and now consists of fifty chartered state associations and more than 1,100 affiliated clubs. The NFAA is a member of the International Field Archery Association and a national allied organization of the National Archery Association (NAA).

The NFAA is dedicated to the conservation and preservation of game and its natural habitat. The organization is very active in cooperating with federal and state agencies and sportsmen and conservation organizations. It is resolved to foster, perpetuate and preserve "the use of the bow in accordance with its ancient and honorable traditions."_

This is the first three paragraphs....I would consider supporting the practice of all aspects of archery as their primary function




> You continually say that you are not a competitive archer. How do you define competitive? The truth is that you are a competitive archer. If you go to tournaments you are competing.


I'm not competitive in the sense that my drive is not to win but rather to enjoy shooting. I attend the tournaments of my choice because they are the ones I enjoy I don't go to a tourney because I need to or because it's a state qualifier. 




> You may be a more casual competitor than many but you're still a competitor.


Sure I am a competitor but I care more about how I shoot then who I beat. Also, if I did compete, it would be traditional not Pro, A, B, or C class, free style, bowhunter, this, that, and the other (This is the root of the problem) I wouldn't need to report my scores to compete against everyone in my division

I


> know that $80 can be a lot of money for some people. Me included sometimes. But I still think it's a small price to pay for what the CBH and the NFAA do


Don't you think I should be allowed to make the decision to join one, the other, or both?




> You mentioned in one post that some of the trad groups put on tournaments just fine without the NFAA and that's true as far as it goes. But, the truth is that I'll bet every one of those shoots is held at NFAA affiliated clubs.


 Nope



> Clubs that wouldn't exist without the NFAA.


Clubs existed before the NFAA



> Join. The look on your sons face when he brings home a ribbon will be well worth joining.


I've seen the look at traditional shoots, it's a shame that the NFAA would rather tie itself to manufacturers rather then those that actually shoot


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

Cirgue, clearly all you're interested in is arguing. Are you friends with Warbow?

I've given you what I think are some good reasons to join. I know $80 is a lot but I think it's worth it. If you don't, then don't join. It's that simple. 

Don't waste everyone's time.

I would be curious to know what trad shoots are out there, in California, that are hosted by a club that is not afflitated with the NFAA? I don't go to many trad shoots, but I have, and all have been at NFAA clubs.

And, you're right, archery clubs exited before the NFAA was founded. There currently are somewhere around 55 or 60 NFAA clubs in California plus a couple of NAA clubs and numerous JOAD clubs. How many clubs would there be if the NFAA or the NAA didn't exist?

Best of luck to you in whatever direction archery takes you.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> First, the NFAA insurance program is pro rated, not the ASA. (Our club is ASA member club - $370 flat, includes 10 memberships (send in earlier enough and get -1- additional membership free), and insurance which includes additionally insured (property owner). Yes, I was stunned with this, but happily, we have been a ASA club for some time now. Note; ASA offers liability insurance to members for $5.00.





ultratec00 said:


> Did that change from last year, or is new this year? As it was interpreted to me last year, ASA insurance comes with 10 memberships if the respective club has no ASA members. I was told the insurance is pro-rated for up to 10 members. If not, the club still has the option to sell back the 10 memberships at face value or at a discounted rate, which in itself can reduce the cost of insurance significantly. Either way, the upfront cost was still less than NFAA insurance, at least for out club.


Your both wrong. ASA charges $30 per member, MINIMUM 10 members, plus landowners fees. Our club has 20 members, that's $600 for ASA membership plus $20 for the landowner.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

Spotshooter2 said:


> As someone already said , dont join the NFAA or your state and just shoot local shoots. Not all shoots do you have to belong to either organization to win awards. Seems to me you should have more beef with your state organiztion than the NFAA since the NFAA's take is only 35 dollars and adding more family members is cheap. Dont know what else you can do cheaper but good luck finding it.


I'd like to join one or the other and compete on a very minimal basis but I am not given that choice. I think the majority of archers are in this catagory. If I was a serious compound shooter that wanted to shoot class A or B then I can see the added cost. I know the NFAA alone has over 1100 affiliates. that's a lot of archers. Do you think a large number of them are recreational shooters like myself? And do you think many more would join NFAA if they were less restrictive?


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## Erbowman (Mar 24, 2004)

Maybe its your area or the clubs in your area. I live in TN and majority of the shoots are open to anyone and one does not have to belong to any organization to compete or win awards. That is for the NFAA and ASA. Only the state shoots are required to have a membership or an NFAA sanctioned shoot( if there is one in the area). I know all the ASA shoots in my local area do not require membership except for the state.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Two things to bring up. NFAA offers the Bowhunting membership for $35 plus $5 per additional person. That makes you an NFAA member but NOT a CBH member. Saves you some money. If you are worried about your son not getting awards, then I will suggest a Junior membership $15 plus CBH dues. Saves you some money that way too.

The only other thing I will bring to the party is this. My club is hosting an NCFAA sanctioned shoot on Feb 28th. We as a club decided to make this shoot a benefit shoot to help the family whose 14 year old daughter was injured in a farming accident. To help this family out the NCFAA is donating it's portion of the proceeds. I am now and will be for along time, a member of the NFAA and NCFAA.

If none of the reasons outlined in this thread offer you any guidance to your query, I am not sure what you are looking for. Good luck in your search and I hope you find what you are looking for.

Matt


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

6X60 said:


> Cirgue, clearly all you're interested in is arguing. Are you friends with Warbow?


 I'm interested in discussing...this is a discussion forum. I'm sorry you and others seem to think I'm stepping on toes. 



> I've given you what I think are some good reasons to join. I know $80 is a lot but I think it's worth it. If you don't, then don't join. It's that simple.


I've heard many good reasons to join and they were the reasons I was considering joining. I'd like to support the group that represents all archers. I'm trying to find out if the NFAA does this



> Don't waste everyone's time.


No one is forcing anyone to read this thread or respond. The time they waste is their own



> I would be curious to know what trad shoots are out there, in California, that are hosted by a club that is not afflitated with the NFAA? I don't go to many trad shoots, but I have, and all have been at NFAA clubs.


That's not exactly what you said. I think you said they were held at NFAA clubs. I can name two off the top of my head that are held elsewhere The Chamberlain Ranch shoot is held on private property. And the Eastern Sierra shoot is shot in the National Foreest


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Time for me to put in my less than two cents worth.

Some mentioned the demise of the Atlantic City shoot. I hated that as much as anyone. The last year they were there, they lost 30,000.00 something had to be done. Pittsburgh was expensive as heck to go there, and few did. Hartford, The Stan Open... As I know it, Copper John never coughed up the ten grand they promised to the NFAA to call it that... I've never been told any different.....

Bruce Almighty didn't decide the arrow diameter, I think Easton did. They gave the NFAA 500,000 Bucks to help build the new headquarters in Yankton. They have a ton of pull. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

There is one more year of indoor at Louisville after this one. Then who knows. I've heard through the grape vine that there's an outside chance that Newport News, Va might have a chance. But I think that's a long shot.

We have a new headquarters, money in the bank for now, a fairly good four range set up at Yankton and the land was given to the NFAA. I hate the drive from WV, but it's better than nothing. The practice targets and ranges are walking distance from the Motel.

Now for the bad news..... If the numbers are right, the NFAA lost 2,500 give or take in membership last year (08). I really think the powers that be are trying to hide this... Seems this page with these numbers was conveniently left out of the agenda for the Vegas meeting if I have my info correct.....

I actually think Bruce has made some pretty good business decisions, I just don't care of the veil of secrecy and the backdoor dealings. It really makes him look bad and you definitely have reason to question his motives....


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

Spoon13 said:


> Two things to bring up. NFAA offers the Bowhunting membership for $35 plus $5 per additional person. That makes you an NFAA member but NOT a CBH member. Saves you some money. If you are worried about your son not getting awards, then I will suggest a Junior membership $15 plus CBH dues. Saves you some money that way too.


 Who knows, after reading all this I may do an associate membership with CBH or Bowhunting with NFAA. The latter will at least satisfy the 5 members for our club rule


Final note (I think) before I piss everyone else off. There are a ton of traditional shoots and state or national affiliation is not an issue to place. I have wondered if the majority of these traditional shooters have felt left out when it comes to the NFAA or CBH and have rebelled. I think CBH/NFAA may be missing the boat.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Unclegus said:


> Time for me to put in my less than two cents worth.
> 
> Some mentioned the demise of the Atlantic City shoot. I hated that as much as anyone. The last year they were there, they lost 30,000.00 something had to be done. Pittsburgh was expensive as heck to go there, and few did. Hartford, The Stan Open... As I know it, Copper John never coughed up the ten grand they promised to the NFAA to call it that... I've never been told any different.....


I can't speak about Pittsburgh or Hartford but i can provide some FACTS about Atlantic City. I talked to Helen Bolnick about this very thing. Perhaps you are right in that the NFAA LOST $30,000.00 the last year there but Atlantic Cape Community College never lost a dime, in fact, they made a modest income every year they ran the shoot. Then the NFAA swooped in to make the AC shoot a big, National event and politely declined Helen's offer to stay involved and keep things oriented around the college so that the shoot would continue to get the Convention Center for almost nothing. But no . . the NFAA/WAF came in as the big professional organization and said "Step aside there little Lady. We'll handle this". Immediately, the price went up to the normal rental amount for the facility, which, of course, the NFAA/WAF couldn't afford so they pulled out. Now, what was a GREAT shoot run for the benefit of archers and not necessarily for a profit is GONE thanks to those that are supposed to be promoting archery. Go figure.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Mr. October said:


> I can't speak about Pittsburgh or Hartford but i can provide some FACTS about Atlantic City. I talked to Helen Bolnick about this very thing. Perhaps you are right in that the NFAA LOST $30,000.00 the last year there but Atlantic Cape Community College never lost a dime, in fact, they made a modest income every year they ran the shoot. Then the NFAA swooped in to make the AC shoot a big, National event and politely declined Helen's offer to stay involved and keep things oriented around the college so that the shoot would continue to get the Convention Center for almost nothing. But no . . the NFAA/WAF came in as the big professional organization and said "Step aside there little Lady. We'll handle this". Immediately, the price went up to the normal rental amount for the facility, which, of course, the NFAA/WAF couldn't afford so they pulled out. Now, what was a GREAT shoot run for the benefit of archers and not necessarily for a profit is GONE thanks to those that are supposed to be promoting archery. Go figure.


Sounds like a typical WAF/NFAA deal. So what's the problem?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Spoon13 said:


> Your both wrong. ASA charges $30 per member, MINIMUM 10 members, plus landowners fees. Our club has 20 members, that's $600 for ASA membership plus $20 for the landowner.


I wrote the check; $50 for club, $300 for 10 memberships and $20 for landowner = $370. Check ASA website - has form showing same.

Why did your club pay for 10 members over the minimum required? 

signed,
Sec/Trea of
Black Diamond Archery, Inc.
Sonny Thomas


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Unclegus said:


> Now for the bad news..... If the numbers are right, the NFAA lost 2,500 give or take in membership last year (08). I really think the powers that be are trying to hide this... Seems this page with these numbers was conveniently left out of the agenda for the Vegas meeting if I have my info correct.....


Two ago, I think, the reported membership was just less than 14,000. Actual numbers have not been released since. Here, in Illinois, around year 2002 (?) IAA membership stood at over 450 members and 25 members clubs. Of last year membership neared 300 members and 16 clubs. The biggest drop of membership came around the same time the NFAA/TNUSA merger and failure period and has steadily dropped ever since. I was IAA Central Board at the time of the merger and voiced my opposing opinion.

Side bar: Remember, the NFAA raised dues at the same time. Again, someone paid for the "free" bowhunter liability insurance.

The merger included Uncle Ted's group getting one year of free BowHunter membership. There was no word, but Ted's group didn't care for it either as they didn't renew their membership in any great numbers. I was also in contact with one of Ted's Generals (as he put) and Larry was as lost as everyone else. BUT! For a time Ted got something like 7 to 9 pages of Archery Magazine to spout his mind and advertise.

I have been waiting; There was this rumor that one of the other big organizations may try their hand at hosting Spot shooting. Now, if Bruce pulls any of Three Star action into Yankton wouldn't that really open the door?


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Exqueeze me, but isn't the new Yankton shoot in June part of the three star thing???? 
In the NYFAB annual meeting update, it said the membership at the end of 07 was somewhere around 12,300, and around 9,700 at the end of 08.

I have no clue what's going on, but i'd like to know. I've always been NFAA, and I hate to see it go down the tubes, and most of all I don't like being BS'ed.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Unclegus said:


> Exqueeze me, but isn't the new Yankton shoot in June part of the three star thing????
> In the NYFAB annual meeting update, it said the membership at the end of 07 was somewhere around 12,300, and around 9,700 at the end of 08.
> 
> I have no clue what's going on, but i'd like to know. I've always been NFAA, and I hate to see it go down the tubes, and most of all I don't like being BS'ed.


Yes . . the 3rd leg o the WAF it Yankton in June.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Maybe it's about time the college took back the atlantic city classic, w/o the NFAA.. Wouldn't that be a *isser.... lol




Mr. October said:


> I can't speak about Pittsburgh or Hartford but i can provide some FACTS about Atlantic City. I talked to Helen Bolnick about this very thing. Perhaps you are right in that the NFAA LOST $30,000.00 the last year there but Atlantic Cape Community College never lost a dime, in fact, they made a modest income every year they ran the shoot. Then the NFAA swooped in to make the AC shoot a big, National event and politely declined Helen's offer to stay involved and keep things oriented around the college so that the shoot would continue to get the Convention Center for almost nothing. But no . . the NFAA/WAF came in as the big professional organization and said "Step aside there little Lady. We'll handle this". Immediately, the price went up to the normal rental amount for the facility, which, of course, the NFAA/WAF couldn't afford so they pulled out. Now, what was a GREAT shoot run for the benefit of archers and not necessarily for a profit is GONE thanks to those that are supposed to be promoting archery. Go figure.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

If I am not a professional, why should I join the NFAA?

If I only shoot a few tournaments a year, why should I join the NFAA?

I'm a member of an archery club that is affiliated with the NFAA and I considered joining to support them but why? What benefit do I get? What does the NFAA do for me or my club? 

To be honest, what keeps me from joining is the fact I must join the state association also and the combined cost is ridiculous. It costs more to be a member of two organizations that do very little for me then it costs me my yearly club dues. 


Why not??? If you like shooting field then the only way to ensure its future is to pay today. How many join orgs like the North American hunting club, the NRA and so forth. A good organization needs everyone they can get. Forget about the people in charge. If you a join you have a voice and you can make a difference. If you are not happy with the way things are run then by all means run for an office and help change from within. If however you stay on the outside then you get whatever is available. If this thing called archery falls off due to lack of participation then we all lose. So become active if not with the NFAA then your club which is NFAA affiliated. THIS IS WHY WE JOIN. Heck I can shoot at my shop, in my yard or take a target and head off into the woods. But this only allows me to shoot a bow and not interact with others that love this sport. This is just my 2 cents. Ed


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## Lefteye19 (Aug 1, 2005)

All of these are very good answers. I, too , always question when I go to write the check or enter my card # on the site, but if I don't then who will. Archery's numbers, along with the hunting community, are slowing going down. As you might not see this in your state, look at other states. Check the stats for every one person that quits the sport how many picks it up. Let's keep this thing going by continuing to join and more importantly introduce our spouses, children, neighbors, and their kids. They'll get addicted.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Someone tell me WHY this has to be NFAA specific??? *ell, become active in any form of archery or respective club. Why purposely exclude "non-affiliated" clubs? Oh, and yes, I do know of at least one archery club/activity and organization, that is "non-affiliated" in the state of maryland. If these "state affiliates" would pull their head out of the sacred stump, become neutral, and promote all of archery, then maybe there is hope. As long as this inbred incestuous mentality exists, the only hope archery has would be a swifter death vs. a lingering one. At least with a swift death, there's a opportunity to be reborn from the ashes.



Rattleman said:


> So become active if not with the NFAA then your club which is NFAA affiliated. THIS IS WHY WE JOIN.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

ultratec00 said:


> Someone tell me WHY this has to be NFAA specific??? *ell, become active in any form of archery or respective club. Why purposely exclude "non-affiliated" clubs? Oh, and yes, I do know of at least one archery club/activity and organization, that is "non-affiliated" in the state of maryland. If these "state affiliates" would pull their head out of the sacred stump, become neutral, and promote all of archery, then maybe there is hope. As long as this inbred incestuous mentality exists, the only hope archery has would be a swifter death vs. a lingering one. At least with a swift death, there's a opportunity to be reborn from the ashes.


Why should the State Affiliate pull their head out of the sand?? The NFAA state affiliates adhere to a STANDARD set of rules for how we play this game. If you do not have a set standard then how do you hold a tournament. The state affiliate does not exclude membership into its organization but readily accepts new clubs. It would be total anarchy if all clubs had their own set of rules for holding a shoot. Whether it be the NFAA, ASA,IBO or NAA they all have their own rules. So I guess the real question is how come these non affiliated clubs are not affilited with some national org. 
What I have gotten from this thread is some people are jumping on the band wagon to crucify the NFAA. They cry about spending a FEW dollars on joining. But I bet they have no problem spending much more on other activities. I have been an NFAA member for over 20 years and I applaud what these directors and the elected officials have done. If you are involved in any organization, of course there are times that you may not be happy. Some decisions are tough but need to be done. If you do not like the direction the NFAA or any other organization is taking then get off your duff and run for an office and make a difference. Quit sitting on the sidelines and complaining that is the cowards way. So pull up your big boy panties and help out.


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

Rattleman said:


> The NFAA state affiliates adhere to a STANDARD set of rules for how we play this game. If you do not have a set standard then how do you hold a tournament. The state affiliate does not exclude membership into its organization but readily accepts new clubs. It would be total anarchy if all clubs had their own set of rules for holding a shoot. Whether it be the NFAA, ASA,IBO or NAA they all have their own rules.


 I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that a state and national organization is needed to set standards. The debate in this thread seems to center around just who the NFAA or the state affiliates are representing. Is it the manufacturers? The state competitive shooters? the bow hunters? The recreational shooters? All of them? Those that spend the most money?



> So I guess the real question is how come these non affiliated clubs are not affilited with some national org.


 I think this is a good question and would like to hear an answer.



> What I have gotten from this thread is some people are jumping on the band wagon to crucify the NFAA.


 It's called criticism and if taken the right way it could be constructive, if taken the wrong way, it divides the factions further



> They cry about spending a FEW dollars on joining.


 It's a fair amount multiplied by 2 



> But I bet they have no problem spending much more on other activities.


 Supposition. I'd bet not.



> I have been an NFAA member for over 20 years and I applaud what these directors and the elected officials have done.


Judging you by your signature and avatar, I'd say the NFAA is a perfect fit for you. I can't say the same thing for all archers



> Quit sitting on the sidelines and complaining that is the cowards way. So pull up your big boy panties and help out.


It's not cowardly to question/criticize and organization.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Thanks, you supported my arguement quite well. 



Rattleman said:


> Why should the State Affiliate pull their head out of the sand?? The NFAA state affiliates adhere to a STANDARD set of rules for how we play this game. If you do not have a set standard then how do you hold a tournament. The state affiliate does not exclude membership into its organization but readily accepts new clubs. It would be total anarchy if all clubs had their own set of rules for holding a shoot. Whether it be the NFAA, ASA,IBO or NAA they all have their own rules. So I guess the real question is how come these non affiliated clubs are not affilited with some national org.
> What I have gotten from this thread is some people are jumping on the band wagon to crucify the NFAA. They cry about spending a FEW dollars on joining. But I bet they have no problem spending much more on other activities. I have been an NFAA member for over 20 years and I applaud what these directors and the elected officials have done. If you are involved in any organization, of course there are times that you may not be happy. Some decisions are tough but need to be done. If you do not like the direction the NFAA or any other organization is taking then get off your duff and run for an office and make a difference. Quit sitting on the sidelines and complaining that is the cowards way. So pull up your big boy panties and help out.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Why should they have to? Totally unnecessary if all a club wants to do is have local shoots and has no want to host a sanctioned shoot. There are alternate sources for insurance not associated with any of the major archery organizations. This is about having a place to shoot at the local level. Has NOTHING to do with the 3 - 5% that chose to compete at the national level. As far as that goes, if a local club decides it wants to build a field, or indoor, range and have a local tournament, more power to them. They don't need to be associated with NFAA to have a shoot. I'd be the first one to hold up the middle finger in the direction of yankton, say this shoot was sponsored, hosted, and worked by local shooters.



Rattleman said:


> So I guess the real question is how come these non affiliated clubs are not affilited with some national org.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

ultratec00 said:


> Why should they have to? Totally unnecessary if all a club wants to do is have local shoots and has no want to host a sanctioned shoot. There are alternate sources for insurance not associated with any of the major archery organizations. This is about having a place to shoot at the local level. Has NOTHING to do with the 3 - 5% that chose to compete at the national level. As far as that goes, if a local club decides it wants to build a field, or indoor, range and have a local tournament, more power to them. They don't need to be associated with NFAA to have a shoot. I'd be the first one to hold up the middle finger in the direction of yankton, say this shoot was sponsored, hosted, and worked by local shooters.


I whole heartedly agree to a degree, But a central body is needed to set a standard by which to compete at the local level. This is why a central org. is needed. We have 3D all across the state and they ALL follow one of the Org. guidelines whether it be ASA, IBO or NFAA. So again if a central organization is to make the standards then why NOT join and support? I am in no way saying that the NFAA is the only way to go but it is a start. I once belonged to the Chesapeake Bowhunters and we had private insurance. We held small shoots but the rules changed from week to week to suit a certian few.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Cirque said:


> I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that a state and national organization is needed to set standards. The debate in this thread seems to center around just who the NFAA or the state affiliates are representing. Is it the manufacturers? The state competitive shooters? the bow hunters? The recreational shooters? All of them? Those that spend the most money?
> 
> Like any club or organization you cater to a certian few. Like it or not. The Corvette club of America caters to Corvette owners..Period As far as the MAnufactures. If someone is willing to spend a ton of dough on your sport you have a decision to make. Be upity and get nothing or bend and receive. Like it or not everything that we do requires a bit of prostitution. We do it everyday at our jobs. The boss sez to do something and we follow orders ..for a paycheck
> 
> ...


Not as long as you are prepared to stand up and make a difference. The biggest problem that we see at these clubs is the lack of membership participation. It is extremely important that others step up and fill these elected officers positions. These people bring in fresh ideas which help the club/organization grow. Everyone that I have ever known that has become involved in their club has remained active. They continue to come to work parties, help set up and tear down 3D targets and hold offices if needed. These people are real assets to the club. These are also the ones that help make the new rules (Sometimes unpopular) But as long as these people are the ones doing the work and voicing their opinions these will be the ones making the rules. like it or not.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Thanks Rattleman. Usually the ones doing the most complaining in clubs are the ones that dont help out when it comes to work. they would just as soon be on the sidelines doing the complaining.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Rattleman said:


> Not as long as you are prepared to stand up and make a difference. The biggest problem that we see at these clubs is the lack of membership participation. It is extremely important that others step up and fill these elected officers positions. These people bring in fresh ideas which help the club/organization grow. Everyone that I have ever known that has become involved in their club has remained active. They continue to come to work parties, help set up and tear down 3D targets and hold offices if needed. These people are real assets to the club. These are also the ones that help make the new rules (Sometimes unpopular) But as long as these people are the ones doing the work and voicing their opinions these will be the ones making the rules. like it or not.


Bingo . . . couldn't have said it better.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

Absolutely, and that decision/affiliation should be left to the respective club and members, not dictated by a state organization. If a club chooses not to be affiliated, as you noted at the end of your statement, that is their CHOICE. They shouldn't be excluded from a state shoot schedule as they too are part of the archery base as a WHOLE, and provide an avenue for the sport itself. If they have a loyal following that supports their venue, then so be it and more power to them. In the end it is about growing archery as a sport and not promoting one agenda/organization over another. As long as there are competitive shooters, there will always be central organization. Just don't let the tail wag the dog.



Rattleman said:


> I whole heartedly agree to a degree, But a central body is needed to set a standard by which to compete at the local level. This is why a central org. is needed. We have 3D all across the state and they ALL follow one of the Org. guidelines whether it be ASA, IBO or NFAA. So again if a central organization is to make the standards then why NOT join and support? I am in no way saying that the NFAA is the only way to go but it is a start. I once belonged to the Chesapeake Bowhunters and we had private insurance. We held small shoots but the rules changed from week to week to suit a certian few.


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## ultratec00 (Aug 1, 2003)

I don't believe anyone's going to argue the fact a few are responsible for the majority of the work. It all starts at the club level, club being any structured entity regardless of its affiliation. The clubs form the very base in which archery exists within the state. Hence the very reason the state organization should be neutral and promote all the venues and not one agenda over another. 




Rattleman said:


> The biggest problem that we see at these clubs is the lack of membership participation. It is extremely important that others step up and fill these elected officers positions. These people bring in fresh ideas which help the club/organization grow. Everyone that I have ever known that has become involved in their club has remained active. They continue to come to work parties, help set up and tear down 3D targets and hold offices if needed. These people are real assets to the club. These are also the ones that help make the new rules (Sometimes unpopular) But as long as these people are the ones doing the work and voicing their opinions these will be the ones making the rules. like it or not.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

ultratec00 said:


> Absolutely, and that decision/affiliation should be left to the respective club and members, not dictated by a state organization. If a club chooses not to be affiliated, as you noted at the end of your statement, that is their CHOICE. *They shouldn't be excluded from a state shoot schedule as they too are part of the archery base as a WHOLE,* and provide an avenue for the sport itself. If they have a loyal following that supports their venue, then so be it and more power to them. In the end it is about growing archery as a sport and not promoting one agenda/organization over another. As long as there are competitive shooters, there will always be central organization. Just don't let the tail wag the dog.


But doesn't that become a viscious circle...one of the primary things a state organization does is set and protect dates for its member clubs. If you publish dates from non-member clubs, and allow those clubs who offer you no support (by not being affiliated) to compete for what is a limited number of shooters, what have you accomplished? You are most likely reducing your own participation at the benefit of someone who offers you no support...pretty soon, there is no state organization anymore, just a bunch of clubs all with their own set of rules...they all will sponsor their own shoots, where their own shooters will show up...

When I moved to NC the state association was almost non-existant, and so was field and indoor archery. Thanks to several folks, we have begun to turn that around. We go out to shoots and promote our game, and are finding that people that come try it, come back and usually join eventually. Our org. is getting stronger and so is our participation (although it is still admittedly pretty small). It does take a concentrated effort to grow, and a bunch of independent clubs all playing their own game isn't going to give you that...

I'm not trying to claim the state associations are perfect, but I believe they are needed to keep our sport alive..without members, how do the state associations continue to survive?


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

psargeant said:


> But doesn't that become a viscious circle...one of the primary things a state organization does is set and protect dates for its member clubs. If you publish dates from non-member clubs, and allow those clubs who offer you no support (by not being affiliated) to compete for what is a limited number of shooters, what have you accomplished? You are most likely reducing your own participation at the benefit of someone who offers you no support...pretty soon, there is no state organization anymore, just a bunch of clubs all with their own set of rules...they all will sponsor their own shoots, where their own shooters will show up...
> 
> When I moved to NC the state association was almost non-existant, and so was field and indoor archery. Thanks to several folks, we have begun to turn that around. We go out to shoots and promote our game, and are finding that people that come try it, come back and usually join eventually. Our org. is getting stronger and so is our participation (although it is still admittedly pretty small). It does take a concentrated effort to grow, and a bunch of independent clubs all playing their own game isn't going to give you that...
> 
> I'm not trying to claim the state associations are perfect, but I believe they are needed to keep our sport alive..without members, how do the state associations continue to survive?


Pat . . the problem with the theory of protecting club shoot dates is that there are so many different archery organizations and so many unaffiliated clubs that this just doesn't work in archery. Heck even the National organizations don't prevent cross-overs in scheduling.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Mr. October said:


> Pat . . the problem with the theory of protecting club shoot dates is that there are so many different archery organizations and so many unaffiliated clubs that this just doesn't work in archery. Heck even the National organizations don't prevent cross-overs in scheduling.


I hear you Pete, and I think I mis-spoke a bit. The state organizations also PROMOTE and standardize their game. That is the real value the way I see it. It takes a fairly large effort to compete for someone's time and win. Something that isn't easily accomplished by an individual or a small group. 

The real problem is the "I'll take my ball and go play somewhere else attitude" that seems so prevelant in our culture these days. People want to have shoots, win awards money whatever, but they don't want to have to do any work or pay for it. When they can't get what they want, they take their ball and go play somewhere else.

A membership in a state organization or national organization isn't for everybody and I won't try and say that it is. If all you want to do is shoot at your local club playing whatever game you see fit, go for it. If you want to compete with a standardized set of rules in a sanctioned tournament on a state or national level, support the hard working folks that make it possible by joining the org. its really that simple...

If you've got a strong enough club to promote and support the game you want to play, more power too you...but why should any other group jump to help you if you aren't helping (or maybe in fact hurting) them?

Pretty soon you have multiple different types of Field archery each catered to the club that thought it up. Nobody from club A is going to shoot at Club B etc...

You simply can't have your cake and eat it too (at least not for long)...


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I believe that arechery needs to be inclusive to everyone. If you want to shoot please come out and shoot. The number of archers willing to participate is small enough that no one should be turned away.

That being said I am also of the mind set that the NFAA established State orgs to run the shoots in each state and to standardize the competition. If you go and allow everyone to particpate equally regardless of whether they belong to the NFAA/ State org or not the State org will go away. Members will quit paying the membership because it has no value. If a person or club wants to play the NFAA game, then join. It's that simple. 

You will not be turned away and not allowed to participate at a sanctioned shoot but you won't be able to take full advantage without being a member. It is a way to encourage membership instead of discourage membership. I think the State orgs are having enough trouble as it is, there is no need to give existing membership a reason to not maintain there membership by allowing non-members equal share.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Spoon13 said:


> I believe that arechery needs to be inclusive to everyone. If you want to shoot please come out and shoot. The number of archers willing to participate is small enough that no one should be turned away.
> 
> That being said I am also of the mind set that the NFAA established State orgs to run the shoots in each state and to standardize the competition. If you go and allow everyone to particpate equally regardless of whether they belong to the NFAA/ State org or not the State org will go away. Members will quit paying the membership because it has no value. If a person or club wants to play the NFAA game, then join. It's that simple.
> 
> You will not be turned away and not allowed to participate at a sanctioned shoot but you won't be able to take full advantage without being a member. It is a way to encourage membership instead of discourage membership. I think the State orgs are having enough trouble as it is, there is no need to give existing membership a reason to not maintain there membership by allowing non-members equal share.


Well said spoon...That's what I was trying to say (I think)...


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr. October said:


> Bingo . . . couldn't have said it better.


I happen to agree with much of what he said.




Spotshooter2 said:


> Thanks Rattleman. Usually the ones doing the most complaining in clubs are the ones that dont help out when it comes to work. they would just as soon be on the sidelines doing the complaining.


I disagree with this on two fronts: First, we are speaking about those that are not "in the club" so this doesn't apply, as to those complaining within a club, from my experience, the complaining is from those that do all the work while everyone else reaps the benefits. They have a right to complain but many times the complaining leads to destruction of the club. Accept the fact that some people can't or won't put in the same amount of work....It's always been that way 



Rattleman said:


> Not as long as you are prepared to stand up and make a difference. The biggest problem that we see at these clubs is the lack of membership participation. It is extremely important that others step up and fill these elected officers positions. These people bring in fresh ideas which help the club/organization grow. Everyone that I have ever known that has become involved in their club has remained active. They continue to come to work parties, help set up and tear down 3D targets and hold offices if needed. These people are real assets to the club. These are also the ones that help make the new rules (Sometimes unpopular) But as long as these people are the ones doing the work and voicing their opinions these will be the ones making the rules. like it or not.


Like I just said, I agree with this (and it describes the reason's I became a board member in our club) yet we are really talking about those not yet in a club. With respect to the NFAA, why should I join? Why the rule that demands I join both affiliates? If I only want to compete in a minor way at the local level, why must I be lumped in to the same category as a state/national competitor? What about the fact I am a traditional archer? Are the trying to welcome traditional archers or do they realize there is no money in that basket? From what I have read, CBH does a better job including all archers (yet they still demand I join NFAA to compete in local shoots).


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## Cirque (Jan 31, 2009)

ultratec00 said:


> I don't believe anyone's going to argue the fact a few are responsible for the majority of the work. It all starts at the club level, club being any structured entity regardless of its affiliation. The clubs form the very base in which archery exists within the state. Hence the very reason *the state (and national) organization should be neutral and promote all the venues and not one agenda over another*.


What he said....with added emphasis


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Here is another point to ponder. 

If your club shoots Field Archery, the rules they use are probably NFAA rules. If that is the case wouldn't it make sense to support the organization whose Board of Directors and Councilmen work very hard to establish that rules package.

My club is a 3D club. We are a paid member club of the ASA since we follow the rules and guidelines established by ASA. It is no different than the situation with most clubs. 90% of the work falls on 10% of the membership. The rest of the members need to be thankful that the 10% provides them with a place to shoot and have shoots to generate an income. While it would be nice to get more of the work from them, at least they are supporting the club with their membership dues. 

NFAA should be looked at the same way. They have provided a regulated and structured style of archery that clubs can choose to use and participate in. If a club chooses to do so then a little support by being a paid member is not much to ask.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Let me get this straight. One of the reasons some are getting upset is because of the inclusivness. You have to belong to the national org AND the stated org.. In our state we allow those that are not affiliated with the state org and/or the national org to play BUT for only a couple of times. Then they need to make a decision. Join or not. To be honest I have never seen nor heard of this being a problem. Those that want to become competitors, join both orgs and those that are not competitive just go back to shooting their bows at their own leisure. For the most part many of these clubs only host a few shoots per year and then they are on either Saturday or Sunday (sometimes both). Even then the non competitor can still come out and shoot at the clubs just not on the range that the shoot is being held. So again what is the real problem? Maybe I am just getting too old but I cannot for the life of me see a real problem here folks.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotshooter2 
Thanks Rattleman. Usually the ones doing the most complaining in clubs are the ones that dont help out when it comes to work. they would just as soon be on the sidelines doing the complaining. 

I disagree with this on two fronts: First, we are speaking about those that are not "in the club" so this doesn't apply, as to those complaining within a club, from my experience, the complaining is from those that do all the work while everyone else reaps the benefits. They have a right to complain but many times the complaining leads to destruction of the club. Accept the fact that some people can't or won't put in the same amount of work....It's always been that way 

How we work it at our club is like this. You are not obligated to do a work detail to remain a member however only working members have a vote. We keep logs of those that participate in either work parties, 3D setup and running the event, same with field and officiers, (Also phone in work is recorded because some cannot make the scheduled work parties) If by what you mean "THE CLUB" insinuates a clique. Well, then maybe to a degree. That degree is only because these people all have the same agenda and that is to make the range a better place to go. I have yet to experience anyone complaining that he/she has done more work then others. Like I said earlier you do not have to work to be a member, only to be a voting member. I know I will get slammed for this last statement. Some will say that this is how rules get ramrodded in and keep others down. To that I say hogwash. Everyone has the opportunity to be a voting member. Just what is that vote worth to you.


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