# Bow draw weight - we are weaklings



## Golfbuddy45 (Jun 23, 2010)

I was reading some literature on the origins of Archery and Bows and come to the realization that WE ARE WEAKLINGS. We are too pampered and do not do enough real work these days for our own good. I read so many Classified Ads that say "I AM GIVING UP THIS WONDERFUL BOW BECAUSE I AM GETTING TOO OLD TO DRAW 50 pounds, 60 pounds, etc. I am 68 years old and have no problems at all drawing 60# bows and shooting them many times and I have no bow that is less than 45# but I am not a superman by any means and by original Archery standards I am a weakling too. WHY? Because if you read about the history of archery that has been around for something over 10,000 years - YES that's right - and one source I read stated arrowheads as old as 64,000 years old have been found in Africa. Then you read about how bows with a draw weight of 300 pounds have been found, we know for sure about English longbows of 150 to 200 pounds, Mongolian and Chinese warriors with horse bows over a hundred pound draw that were shot at multiple targets within seconds pulling bows with high draw weights and often while hanging off the side of a horse - - and today we have to rely on COMPOUND BOW CAMS THAT LET OFF THE DRAW WEIGHT 60% to 80% SO WE CAN MAINTAIN A TARGET AIM POINT!!! From an engineering standpoint 99% LET-OFF is actually possible. Yes folks in my opinion we are all a bunch of weaklings . . . . . . Woe be unto us when the apocalypse comes and we have no more guns or ammo and we have to fall back on our hunting strength and our old weapons. . . How many of us will be able to run several miles and have the strength to draw a bow that could kill a scarce dinner or an enemy far enough away to save ourselves! ! ! I know I could not do that in my condition today...........

So I wonder how many amongst our fine group of archers could survive if we were suddenly thrown back in technological time ? ? Makes me want to go out and train for a Marathon !!!! 

GB45


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

My 50lb bows will kill anything North America has to offer, and with 40 years of bowhunting experience in several countries on a few different continents have not prepared me…….then I deserve to perish.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Totally not related, but should the sh*& actually hit the wind-powered turbine;

If a person tried to farm, ranch, whatever, they would be raided by the people desperate to eat. 

Original Americans lived in balance with far more abundant populations, herds of elk and bison that just flowed everywhere. Estimated population of hunter/gathering people that lived in what we now call California, prior to invasion; about 100,000. There isn't enough wild game to support the current population of hunters.

Really want to survive? Move to a remote location, stock canned food, and hide until everybody who's going to starve to death, does.

Sweet dreams!


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

It is certainly true. Compared to primitive man, we are a bunch of wimps. Even compared to some modern men. I was once visiting Nepal and was comparing weight with the people around me. The biggest guy I could find was about 110 pounds. And he was carrying about 60 pounds on his back as we walked up towards Everest Base Camp. I have seen similar guys carry their own body weight. I was lucky to be able to get up the hill with my 10 pound pack. The Nepal people all consider us western types wimps. We cannot carry the weight, drink the water, or sleep out at night. We are wimps.

I make no bones about the fact that I would have made a lousy pioneer. I have bad teeth, bad eyes, and my back has failed 3 times requiring surgery. A hundred years ago I would have died by now. I pull back a 40 pound bow, but want nothing heavier.

But if we have to survive, I have enough actual ammunition to last me for my remaining decades, even if I have to drive off a hoard of bow and arrow equipped scavengers.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

I shoot a 70lb recurve, I am 43. I can shoot for hours at a time........... I will survive


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## shoeminator (Jan 27, 2007)

Neck problems, in great shape. You have a point but it is what it is. If we had to fight we will and do it well. Thanks for the post. Something to think about though.


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

The human race is getting weaker and weaker as we transition from "hunter/gatherers" to a lazy everything does everything for us race. The human race will be wrecked in another 500 years!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Speak for yourself I shoe horses for a living. That's "real work", isn't it? LOL...and I made the bow I'm shooting and my quiver and my knives and so on and so forth.

As far as heavy bows in history, I don't think all cultures used heavy bows for all purposes. I'm no historian but I think most native American bows were kind of light. From what I've read, some of them make for a good example as far as "survival" goes. Survival as a hunter/gatherer is a calorie counting game. You aren't going to cut down, split up and carve up a giant tree using stone tools to make a bow. You want a piece of wood that can be turned into a useable bow without too much time or labor and a bow design that lends itself to the same purpose.

By contrast, other cultures in other parts of the world were more "urban" and allowed for more specialization. You could have full time bowyers because somebody else was producing the food and the other things that were needed. The archer may have even have been a full time professional archer. If a hunter spends too much time making bows, he won't get any hunting done and he'll starve.

Also, consider the different uses for bows throughout history in different parts of the world. You might want a heavy bow to shower an armor clad army with arrows at long distance. The same bow may not be the best choice for hunting small or medium sized game or fighting in close quarters. Some of the English longbows were very heavy but how would they score on an NFAA 300 round?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> Totally not related, but should the sh*& actually hit the wind-powered turbine;
> 
> If a person tried to farm, ranch, whatever, they would be raided by the people desperate to eat.
> 
> ...


My philosophy is a little different. To my way of thinking, you may have to leave your home and stash regardless of where you live. You may end up with nothing more than what you can carry. I store knowledge and skill. 

There may not be enough game to support our population but most of our population doesn't know what to eat or how to get it. Without food stamps, half of them would be dead already.


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## LucasK (May 30, 2011)

The bowstring materials used in Europe would not support the bow weights claimed in a string diameter that fits any of the surviving arrows.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

For survival I'm going off of the Natives, like MGF pointed out. Most of those were 30-60# on average. Ever make a natrual materials string? Try it, and then tell me who would starve: the guy shooting the 40# bow or the guy shooting the 100# bow. 

I know I'm a wimp, but I shot heavy bows in the past (85# was my every day bow) and I definately would have starved. I've killed more deer with 50-60# in two years than I did in four with 70+# bows. 

As for actual survival, skills and knowledge trump strength. Personally? I think the cannibals would have the easiest time of it


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Funny thread. 

Tell you what. ..if we are all weaklings. ..

Let's take a 100 guys, ,shooting the best 80 lb stick bows, vs 100 guys who are shooting the best 80 lb compound bows...who could shoot the farthest....?

I know who I would bet on. ..lol

Technology has always advanced the killing power. Survival skills ain't got squat to do with this. 

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Golfbuddy45 said:


> I was reading some literature on the origins of Archery and Bows and come to the realization that WE ARE WEAKLINGS. We are too pampered and do not do enough real work these days for our own good. I read so many Classified Ads that say "I AM GIVING UP THIS WONDERFUL BOW BECAUSE I AM GETTING TOO OLD TO DRAW 50 pounds, 60 pounds, etc. I am 68 years old and have no problems at all drawing 60# bows and shooting them many times and I have no bow that is less than 45# but I am not a superman by any means and by original Archery standards I am a weakling too. WHY? Because if you read about the history of archery that has been around for something over 10,000 years - YES that's right - and one source I read stated arrowheads as old as 64,000 years old have been found in Africa. Then you read about how bows with a draw weight of 300 pounds have been found, we know for sure about English longbows of 150 to 200 pounds, Mongolian and Chinese warriors with horse bows over a hundred pound draw that were shot at multiple targets within seconds pulling bows with high draw weights and often while hanging off the side of a horse - - and today we have to rely on COMPOUND BOW CAMS THAT LET OFF THE DRAW WEIGHT 60% to 80% SO WE CAN MAINTAIN A TARGET AIM POINT!!! From an engineering standpoint 99% LET-OFF is actually possible. Yes folks in my opinion we are all a bunch of weaklings . . . . . . Woe be unto us when the apocalypse comes and we have no more guns or ammo and we have to fall back on our hunting strength and our old weapons. . . How many of us will be able to run several miles and have the strength to draw a bow that could kill a scarce dinner or an enemy far enough away to save ourselves! ! ! I know I could not do that in my condition today...........
> 
> So I wonder how many amongst our fine group of archers could survive if we were suddenly thrown back in technological time ? ? Makes me want to go out and train for a Marathon !!!!
> 
> GB45


I didn't really want to buy into the negative theme of things being spun up here but I will say this...I don't see it as being quite that bad and I think what's going on here (of which you speak) is something like this...using myself as a poster child prime example...

I can draw a 60# bow (and quite a bit more if I was willing to risk injuring myself)...but just because I can draw it doesn't mean I should or would want to....spend a day honing my form and practicing my skills shooting at targets both near and very far...repeatedly...many times...all day long with one as even weight lifters know there's a fine line between becoming a champion and injuring ones self so badly that you are taken out of the game for life...and every weight lifter knows there's two ways of training...one is "Light-Weight/High Reps" (to get there) and the other is "Power Lifting" a certain "goal weight"....."one time"...and doing anything in between?...can rapidly amount to just plain old "Physical Abuse" of ones body which never ends well.

That said?...in 1991 I bought a 80# Jennings Carbon Extreme XLR...I was 32 years old...a state level NFAA/FAA BHFSL shooter and Club Champion....and this was my new 3D speedbow...42" ATA and shot 28" long 2312's across the chrono at a blazing (for back then) 306-308fps...set at 78#'s.....Holding.....(wait for it)...32#s with 60% L.O. Jennings Extreme Cams with which (on a good day) I could hold Ping-Pong ball sized groups at 40yds shooting fingers...and back then?...I weighed 158#s and could bench 350lbs "one time cleanly"...and was the best shape I was ever in since graduating the US Marine Corps Parris Island Boot Camp in 1977.

Today?...I'm 55 year old Recovering Addict with Type II Diabetes who has been injured many times in sportbike wrecks (several of which I shouldn't have survived) and just bought a set of 26# Samick limbs which I suspect locked down on a 25" ILF riser?...I'll be holding about 28#s...solidly and comfortably...so nearly a 1/4 of a century later?...I don't think losing 4#s of "Hold-Ability" is all that bad as while I may have become weaker and more fragile as I've aged?...I've also become smarter and wiser...wise enough to know that GPP is GPP no matter what weight I draw and hold...and with todays ultra-light carbon arrows and components?...this 26-28#er may very well wind up becoming the fastest one stringer I got hanging on my bedroom walls...with me knowing that holding 28#s on a recurve?...is the equivalent of shooting a 112# wheelbow by todays standards of 75% let-off...not exatly pansy territory there either by any stretch of the imagination...if...you know what you're talking about...and those ELB Archers of centuries past?...hoisting back those 150-200# bows?...weren't aiming at X-rings or even kill zones....they were going for a bulleye the size of one of your putting greens. :laugh:

Furthermore?...I would take great pause before posting anything that would challenge the pride and ego's of how much weight others draw...or post anything that encourage them to draw more or worse yet?...continue shooting a bow that is now of a weight that could cause them bodily harm...mainly because I wouldn't want to be the one who sent numerous others to the surgeon for shoulder damage repair or worse yet put them out of the game they love...I would rather go the other way...encouraging them to move down to a weight that they can both shoot accurately and safely...so that they may go on to enjoy this great sport we all love too their dying day.

All I got and>>>here I wasn't even going to respond...LOL!...so much for that and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Bill. ..

I can sum this whole thing like this..

There's a fine line between ego and reality...choose your line. 

Mac


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> Bill. ..
> 
> I can sum this whole thing like this..
> 
> ...


Amen Mac! :laugh:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Yep we are weak - we also live longer


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

I agree that the days of farming, rowing ships and conqueringlead people to be likely much better conditioned than the average person but there's a lot to keep in mind. Food quality and abundance, genetics, medicine, science, etc, has actually lead us to be bigger and stronger than before. I think bow weights and such are largely overstated - those were in all likelyhood war bows, and neither horse bows being snap shot at close distance nor ELBs shoot 200m at an incoming charge were used for precision. There were likely.more that could pull heavy, sure, but I have doubts that they were shooting 200+ arrows a day with the slow precision you see in competition with that kind of weight.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Let me tell ya.....it's all because of target archers. The world went down hill once paper targets and scoring rings were invented :wink: LOL

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## drfubar (May 13, 2013)

I think golfbuddy's post was a little, "tongue in cheek" poke at the human race and he's probably correct with some of it. My primary bow is 70lbs and I'm 61 yrs young. I practice my archery more than most hunters and do that for two reasons. One to keep my old muscles strong enough to shoot 70lbs and two, because I love to sling arrows. I have no macho images of myself I'm just stubborn. I refuse let old age make me lower my bow poundage. As long as I'm not straining, and I'm shooting well I'll continue to shoot 70lbs. I know lower poundage will kill cleanly. I see Uncle Ted do it all the time. I think he said he shoots 48lbs. I just enjoy putting animals to sleep... LOL.


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Let me tell ya.....it's all because of target archers. The world went down hill once paper targets and scoring rings were invented :wink: LOL
> 
> Ray :shade:
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


True I think. The English longbow archers stood high, 50 ft or more, above the ground, and his goal was to hit the ground. The oncoming hoard was a very big target and the archers job was to rain arrows down on the guys as far out as possible. The focus was on rate of fire, not accuracy. They were the assault riles of their day.

Then someone invented the target and suddenly the game changed to being able to actually hit something. The 150 lb bow was suddenly of no advantage. Things change and it is more or less a direct line to those wimpy arrow throwers of today made of metal, fiberglass, carbon etc with sights, stabilizers, plungers, clickers, etc. more robocop than Robin Hood.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

drfubar said:


> I think golfbuddy's post was a little, "tongue in cheek" poke at the human race and he's probably correct with some of it. My primary bow is 70lbs and I'm 61 yrs young. I practice my archery more than most hunters and do that for two reasons. One to keep my old muscles strong enough to shoot 70lbs and two, because I love to sling arrows. I have no macho images of myself I'm just stubborn. I refuse let old age make me lower my bow poundage. As long as I'm not straining, and I'm shooting well I'll continue to shoot 70lbs. I know lower poundage will kill cleanly. I see Uncle Ted do it all the time. I think he said he shoots 48lbs. I just enjoy putting animals to sleep... LOL.


I've shared his line of thought on this before...and much the same concerns me when I witness todays younger generation spending entire days inside the house, with their butts glued to the couch, thumb wrestling with their I-phones...and think how weak they must be...but then I have to take into account that...

This is the same generation that with a laptop can take control of a drone 1/2 way around the world and by bouncing signals off of orbiting satellites can blow a terrorist sniper off the side of a mountain 7,000 miles way from the couch they're sitting on with a few keystrokes and a gaming joystick and the only thing I can say is?...

Nice Shot! :laugh:

But to them?...I'm a Neanderthal who still has to get some exercise cause the trigger on my sniper rifle is a whopping once and a half! :laugh:

So if the chit ever does hit the fan?...and my choices are Golfbuddy and his bow or Bill Gates?...my next question would be...

"Okay Bill...how can I help and what do you want me to do?"

and I might guess his immediate answer would be something like...

Take your sniper rifle and kill someone with a real good machine gun with lots of ammo...then machine me up a heavy based servo controlled ball-joint tripod and securely mount the machine gun to it and I'll take it from there. 

Bow toting wannabe mountain men "might" be some of the last ones walking...but not for long and sadly?...they will be the last of their kind.

The good news?...they will eat better than most...and their last suppers will be a near silent kills.

The rest?...will have resorted to cannibalism long ago.

and you don't wanna know more. L8R, Bill.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

MGF said:


> There may not be enough game to support our population but most of our population doesn't know what to eat or how to get it. Without food stamps, half of them would be dead already.


I didn't mean our whole population, I meant hunters. There aren't enough farms in our country to support our population with non-industrial practices, I'd wager 

There may be some parts of the country where the population density is low enough so that there aren't too many hunters. If you live out in the middle of nowhere, you may be the exception, but then you still need to worry about other hunters from more populous regions don't move in for the game.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Barney, if you are into economic history, there's some good reading out there on that very subject you describe. For centuries, all of man's hunters and gatherers were actually subject to what's called the Malthusian Trap. IOW, when man populates and congregates, birth rates are always exponential in growth while food gathering and production is linear. The congregation eventually dies out and a new, but smaller, one emerges to start over. Not until the industrial age of travel and production (Globalization) did we start breaking that cycle. Here's one good read if you into that stuff: _A Farewell to Alms: A Brief Economic History of the World_


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

MGF said:


> There may not be enough game to support our population but most of our population doesn't know what to eat or how to get it. Without food stamps, half of them would be dead already.


Ain't that the truth. Dont get me started on this one, there ain't a forum big enough to hold my rant on this subject.


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## LRJammer (Jun 22, 2013)

While it is true that we cant and dont do the things that our ancestors did on a regular basis. The other side of that coin is that generally, we dont do them because we dont have to. For the most part, that is better know as progess.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Yep we are weak - we also live longer


We have a winner here!!! You have to remember that the average survival age for people in the middle ages when long bows were popular was something like 35-37 years old--those guys were still very much in their prime. As we become a much older civilization, we are faced with having to live with the effects of lessening physical and sometimes mental abilities. There is a + and - side to this increased longevity....


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## Stevie777 (May 2, 2013)

We may be weaklings compared to our Archers of yesteryear, but being built like Garth doesn't make you a great Hunter.

Take some of the Tribes around the Globe who still hunt using Bows..Some the smallest and lightest of Bows used by some of the smallest and lightest of people, but most of those tribes have one thing in common..Poisoned Arrows...

Why lug a heavy, Cumbersome Longbow that pulls 150 around and can tear through a rhino about with you in the Jungle or in the bush when you can have a bow that's maybe only 24" long and weighs practically nothing, and remember, they generally only kill what they can Lug out with them, enough to feed the Family or small tribe for a few days at most...


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Stevie777 said:


> We may be weaklings compared to our Archers of yesteryear, but being built like Garth doesn't make you a great Hunter.
> 
> Take some of the Tribes around the Globe who still hunt using Bows..Some the smallest and lightest of Bows used by some of the smallest and lightest of people, but most of those tribes have one thing in common..Poisoned Arrows...
> 
> Why lug a heavy, Cumbersome Longbow that pulls 150 around and can tear through a rhino about with you in the Jungle or in the bush when you can have a bow that's maybe only 24" long and weighs practically nothing, and remember, they generally only kill what they can Lug out with them, enough to feed the Family or small tribe for a few days at most...


Or the folks in the Amazon who still live off of the bow- all "slow" bows in the 50# range basically stabbing animals with bow-launched spears:lol:


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## Golfbuddy45 (Jun 23, 2010)

Good words from all of you - - I presume you all realize I posted this more as a statement of our general health in this country than what will happen in a true apocalypse - there have been enough movies on the subject of Zombies and the like but I do find it funny that so many folks talk about not being able to manage a 50 pound bow without destroying their shoulders. Obviously we do not need to train to lug heavy and powerful bows with what we have available today but it does make me wonder what would happen if we were to have a serious depression where many millions lose their jobs and food supplies dry up. Hey, China is buying our largest pork supplier, SMITHFIELD, who knows what they are going to do with those great products? In any case I am losing weight and trying to work out as much as possible to get myself in better condition. I want to be around for my four grandkids as long as possible, Tomas is just 3 days old now . . . I will be 79 years old when Joey reaches 21, 82 for Makayla to be 21, 86 for Amelia to be 21, and 88 for Tomas to be 21. Since all my family has made it into the 90's I plan to be there when they all reach that milestone but I have to be sure to keep myself in shape and healthy. So far I take no medicine of any kind except the occasional NSAID for a slight touch of arthritis. I have lost 50 pounds in the last 6 months and working on more - about another 75 pounds should put me in good shape!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GB45


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Our physical condition is a different story, seperate bow weight. I agree 100% on the physical state of people these days... bit depressing


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Well. ..let's see. ...

Enough powder, bullets, primers, brass vacuumed sealed to last the family for a few years. ..check

MRI'S for a couple years safely stored. ...check

Not to mention all the other things as well. ..like water and medical supplies. ..

I think my bunkers are set...lol...lol...lol...

Nothing wrong with staying in shape or getting into shape for the family. ..nothing at all. But, it is what it is. ..the best preparation in the world won't stop you from getting a virus if you don't know it is there. .and it won't add a second to your life when it's your time to go. ..

We do the best we can with the time allotted us. ..

Yup stay active, stay healthy, keep shooting. ..

Mac


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

> Woe be unto us when the apocalypse comes and we have no more guns or ammo and we have to fall back on our hunting strength and our old weapons. . .


Tiffany at the Harley shop (Service Dept. She pushes hawgs around all day.) says to me, "You think you're gonna pull a knife on me, you'd better bring a gun." She grew up in Alaska, pretty strong and independent, good lookin' too!


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