# Got Busted in a Sting Operation!



## Arrow H (Mar 26, 2009)

the only thing i can say is that sucks. Its a shame that they spend thier time trying to fine people selling mounts, (which i dont understand why thats illegal, you killed it and paid for it) instead of tracking down poachers and other serious wildlufe offenses. I hope everything works out for you and your family.


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## archeryhunterME (Feb 12, 2006)

I had no idea that was illegal either until my taxi told me that a couple months ago, rediculous law.


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## mamachay (Nov 30, 2004)

So how do they get away with it on ebay? seems like selling mounts across state lines would be a bigger offense?


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## harkybowhunter (Aug 13, 2007)

That truly sucks. Seems to me the wildlife in SC would be better served if the COs expended their energies protecting wildlife when it's alive. I can understand this law as a deterrant to poaching, but if you can prove it was legally taken, WTH? Good luck. Please give us an update. I hope you get a judge with common sense.


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## VanillaKilla (Dec 22, 2005)

I won't let a judge decide this. I am going into the court and requesting a jury trial which is my right according to the back of the citation.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

mamachay said:


> So how do they get away with it on ebay? seems like selling mounts across state lines would be a bigger offense?


 It's not illegal in every state, Ebay tells you to understand and follow the laws in the state you live in including turning in any sales/use tax due the state 

A trial by jury may be your right but it is not like you will make out any better, ignorance does not excuse breaking the law, and if it is proven you sold the mount, they will find you guilty and then the judge will sentence you anyhow.


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## Hokiehunter06 (Sep 4, 2008)

I feel bad for you getting busted without knowing that it is illegal. I knew it was illegal, because my dad does a little taxidermy. The law is intended to prevent market hunting. No one wants hunting to turn into a commercial operation where people shoot as many mallards, turkeys, etc just to have them mounted and sold to people and businesses that want to have them on display. You can't sell any of the meat for the same reason. A bear hunting club near where I live was busted for selling the bear gall. Apparently it's highly valued in some Asian cultures. It is a good law that prevents marketing hunting for meat/antlers/organs/hides. Today, hunting is intended to be recreation and not for profit. If you want to raise monster bucks and game on a farm like livestock then that's a different story. That's too bad you were busted though.

If there is an open market for trophy bucks, wild game meat, organs, etc, then there is an even larger incentive for people to commit more serious game violations like hunting at night, exceeding the bag limit, etc.


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## P DOG (Jan 22, 2007)

mamachay said:


> So how do they get away with it on ebay? seems like selling mounts across state lines would be a bigger offense?


I always wondered the same thing. There is also couple of sellers on Ebay that I have been watching the past couple of years selling racks daily. I cannot imagine on how they obtain that many racks and sell them.. 

Heck go to any of our 4 pawn shops in our city and they have deer mounts/taxidermy for sale all the time weird.


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

I had no idea either as I figured as long as it had a tag on it you were fine. there is a guy on craigslist here in ohio that has had literall hundreds of mounts for sale lately. Now I wonder what the ohio laws are.


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## hoyt88 (Nov 24, 2008)

that sucks i had no idea either


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## bigracklover (Feb 1, 2008)

I'd be irate too, not like they don't have bigger fish to fry  Sadly though, I'm sure there's nothing you can do about it.


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## rdj-pencilart (Jun 22, 2006)

*bad decision*

The officers should have done there own homework and really thought more about what they were going to do. One of the last person who wrote in is exactly correct. You should find a FREE service lawyer and see what your options are. What they did was add something to your record that was unnecessary .. maybe a small infraction charge and tell the person right up front.. none of this undercover crap for what you supposedly did.
You got wronged.. do what you can to get this off your record


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

Your particular case is a sad one. A jury may help you out. But the law is not a dumb law. It was designed to stop people from poaching animals, especially deer, getting them mounted and selling them to some low life rich scumbag who doesn't have the time or energy to go shoot his own "TROPHY". People will pay BIG bucks for a mounted trophy deer and this is why alot of poachers do what they do. However, in your case, the officers were probably well aware that u weren't a money poacher and could have stopped you from selling the items without the ticket. I'm not positive but I think the fact that it was a duck made it illegal in all states under the migratory bird act. Ducks on ebay usually say they were pen raised and have some sort of proof like a permit to raise them and a band number or something to that affect. Some states do not allow any animal to be sold accept for hides. Sorry you got nailed by some overzealous officers but I'm in favor of the law. We just need officers who can think!


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

drtnshtr said:


> I had no idea either as I figured as long as it had a tag on it you were fine. there is a guy on craigslist here in ohio that has had literall hundreds of mounts for sale lately. Now I wonder what the ohio laws are.


 Turn them in. 

It is a law often enforced with lackluster vigilance. I have been to estate sales in places where it is illegal to sell mounts but they still went with auctioning the mount. Ironically it is not illegal to gift the mount to someone.


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## lefty o (Jul 14, 2004)

ignorance of the law, doesnt make it right.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. It sucks that you got hit like that, especially in your situation but you were breaking the law.



lefty o said:


> ignorance of the law, doesnt make it right.


You're a ninja... ! lol


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## Supershark (Dec 14, 2004)

news to me!
Guys sell them here in Ohio all the time.
Speaking of, look at Craigslist right now for columbus, Ohio... There were 20 mounts on there last month...


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## eorlando (Jul 21, 2009)

Don't big stores like basspro and cabella's buy mounts as well???? I thought I had heard of them buying mounts to be displyed in their stores. Is this true and ifso how do they get away with it????


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Selling of wild game (meat, hide, horns, or any part) is strictly illegal in most States. In some places there are exceptions for trophy mounts. I know Cabelas can buy them but believe some sort of permitting is in place. It is your responsibility to know the law. 

That said, this sort of sting is ridiculous. OBVIOUSLY you had no idea and a simple phone call could have made life easier all the way around. But as States and game agencies get pinched for money this is how they are generating revenue.


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

VanillaKilla said:


> Well where do I start. I was in construction and have been unemployed for over a year. Things have been getting harder and harder. We are scheduled to lose our home in March. This being said I need to get some money together to find a place for me, my wife, and 3 kids. So I put an add on craigslist to start selling furniture, mower, 4 wheeler. I also listed my taxidermy. I have a friend who listed a mounted mallard on craigslist. So he gets a call on it and a guy comes to his house last friday to look at it. Asking him if he has anymore he says no but I have a friend who has some, and he gives him my number. The guy calls me and I setup a meeting for yesterday morning. The guy then calls my friend back and sets up the same time. Long story short undercover wildlife officers buy 1 mallard mount from him and one whitetail shoulder mount and a pair of mounted mallards from me. During the 30 minutes I spent with this officer telling him my situation he never mentioned that what I was about to do was illegal. Being completely clueless that it was illegal to sell a deer or duck mount they lead me into their "sting". So they fine me $500, set a court date, and confiscate my mounts. I am beside myself that 6 no really six state paid employees have time to do this!!!!. My friend received the same and his 65 yr old mother a warning because she accepted the $ when he was at work. I still can't believe that knowing I had no idea that what I was about to do was illegal, "we knew you were negligent" quoting one officer, and rather than just telling me they, they "have to do our job" and bust me!! I have asked everyone I know if they knew it was illegal, all but 1 had no clue. I really wonder why the couldn't have said "look this is illegal" and I would not have sold them and he could have saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars and no crime would have been committed. I believe this is a small sign as to how our government is ridiculous. The reason they have 6 officers protecting "stuffed animals" is to create revenue rather than layoff a few people!!!! Still in disbelief. And I do believe I will be requesting a Jury of peers!!!!


Yes, request a jury, and be part of the selection of picking them. 

I would ask potential jurors how they feel about government involvment in our lives and what boundries they believe our government should have. 

Pick those who state that we have too much control or government should play a lesser role in our lives. And Christian faith jurors. 

Then plead your case that A) you harvested the animal legally and in compliance with all federal and state regulations. B ) had it mounted legally and paid for it. C ) Since it was taken legally, mounted legally and paid for with your own legal money, then you should have the legal right to sell it if need be or the opportunity arose. D) That these creatures really are not our government , neither federal or state, property after all, they are Gods creatures .


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

lefty o said:


> ignorance of the law, doesnt make it right.


Correct, but that doesn't mean that before a judge or jury that he cannot get this case thrown out of court

Plenty of cases have been won because the offending party was oblivious to laws. 

That line of thinking only applies to common sense issues, such as murder, rape, burglary, theft. 

Things that we know sub consiously are wrong, things that anyone would know. 

Detailed laws about selling a legally taken , mounted animal are usually obscurated and sometimes not even in the regulation hand books given out by each state.


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## manboy (Mar 24, 2005)

well guys lesson learned, before you sell any mounts contact your local taxi, aabout the law in your state.....


and with any law, ingnorance is no excuse for breaking the law, sad but thats how it works...


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## gun870guy (Jun 26, 2009)

I didn't know it was illegal as well....


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

Mr. October said:


> Selling of wild game (meat, hide, horns, or any part) is strictly illegal in most States. In some places there are exceptions for trophy mounts. I know Cabelas can buy them but believe some sort of permitting is in place. It is your responsibility to know the law.
> 
> That said, this sort of sting is ridiculous. OBVIOUSLY you had no idea and a simple phone call could have made life easier all the way around. But as States and game agencies get pinched for money this is how they are generating revenue.


Bingo- Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

To the OP-your better off just pleading guilty to the a Judge. A jury will not sympathize with you if your only defense is "I just didnt know"


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

State your case and see how it goes, then move on, live and learn....Solohunter


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

Furthermore, I really do not believe that those laws should apply to any mount. Do not believe they are constitutionally correct.

If you shoot the animal, pay the license, follow the laws, pay taxes on the money you pay the taxidermist to mount it, they pay taxes on their income, they pay taxes on the mounting materials. 

Then you should have the right to sell the mount 

Thats my opinion, too many dumb laws, not enough common sense laws

What on earth can it hurt selling a mounted head and duck????

What crime can be commited with these mounts?

Just dumb


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## seanhunter (Sep 15, 2009)

I know that waterfowl is illesgal because it is a federal migratory bird. To sell them they have to be farm raised. But I had no clue about the whitetail.What about all the guys that sell their mounts to Cabelas and BSP


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

BuckWyld said:


> Bingo- Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
> 
> To the OP-your better off just pleading guilty to the a Judge. A jury will not sympathize with you if your only defense is "I just didnt know"


 He is actually better off getting a lawyer and letting the lawyer deal with the system whom may be able to get him a deal where he pleads to a different and lesser charge. Since one of the mounts was a migratory bird there may be a mandate on suspending the hunting license. I seriously doubt any of us here posting are legal experts. Some of the replies have been better than others but seriously get representation by someone who knows the court procedures has the knowledge and ability to get you a deal or after reviewing your case and deals with the system everyday says "we can beat this". Trying to do it by yourself has a very string chance of biting you in the *****. If you decided to get a vasectomy you would go to a Doctor not try to do it yourself because the internet shows step by step instructions. The same should hold true with your civil rights because if you plead to the wrong thing or are convicted it may have more repercussions later in life you are not anticipating now. Doing it yourself may get you a deal that looks good thinking wow this fine is so much cheaper than what I was facing but come to find later you fail a ffl search now beacuse even though you were given the minimum, the charge carried the possibility of more than a year in prison as the max and that will get you bumped from being able to buy guns in the future.


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## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

A jury trial is your best bet...as far as the letter of the law goes you were wrong I suppose, but the jury should see there was no real criminal intent. Jury nullification.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

The real question is this... how much time and energy are you willing to burn to prove your point? 

Lawyers are expensive.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Cajun83 said:


> Lawyers are expensive.


Depending on the exact charge, so are fines, not to mention that no hunter wants game law violations on their record. Check around too, some attorneys are also hunters. I have helped local hunters here in NY with hunting violations (only when I believe it was a honest mistake) and charged nothing. You may be surprised. Check with your local rod and gun clubs, they might know of an attorney willing to help. 

Here is an USFWS FAQ sheet for taxidermists relating to migratory birds and what permits are needed. Even with a permit, a taxidermist isn't allowed to sell a mount that a customer doesn't pick up, even if its only to recover the cost of mounting! 

http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FactSheetTaxidermistFront&Back.pdf


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## UV Killer (Jul 17, 2009)

seanhunter said:


> I know that waterfowl is illesgal because it is a federal migratory bird. To sell them they have to be farm raised. But I had no clue about the whitetail.What about all the guys that sell their mounts to Cabelas and BSP


Correct on Waterfowl, they are Federally regulated, and thus the laws against selling them mounted or not. As to Whitetails, a valid license or a record of legal harvest, typically has to accompany the mount. When Sportsman's Warehouse liquidated 23+ stores a year ago we sold all the mounts we owned to private buyers with the expection of the Waterfowl mounts - they were given away to employees for free.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Sure, ignorance of the law is one thing but intentionally leading an unwitting person (who is obviously down on his luck) into completing the "crime" is assinine. Do police officers let a crime happen or do they step in to prevent it if possible? 

These WCOs had a hard-on to bust people and drag anybody into their little dragnet that they could. After you told the officer what your deal was, he could have just opted to not buy anything and not dragged you into their trap if he wanted to keep his cover. Some people get it and others don't. These WCOs either can't think for themselves or are not given the latitude to make judgement calls.........or they're just dicks. 

Sorry to hear about all your troubles bud. I hope things get better for you and your family. I personally think you would be better off handling this yourself in front of judge. It will cost you less than what a lawyer will. If the fine is $500, no lawyer will take on anything for less than $1500.00 so even if you win in front of a jury, you'll lose more money than if you just paid the fine. Tell the judge your story in full detail in regard to you why you did what you did and what you told the WCOs verbatim. You've got nothing to lose.


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## 3children (Aug 10, 2008)

So how does this stop poaching? Let me see, I shoot a deer at nite, out of season, take it to a taxidemist to have it mounted. After I get it back, I sell it on Craigs List. I think the law allows you to sell it in your state, maybe, just not to someone in that state. Do yourself a favor and find out. Most laws have loopholes and believe me, bad guys find them. In Alaska, you cannot sell body parts, Asians will pay $500.00 for a gall bladder:mg: from a bear. When I was offered this from a legal bear I had taken, I just gave it to him. How many of you would have taken the money? Don't answer that!!!


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## slickstalker (Sep 21, 2008)

drtnshtr said:


> I had no idea either as I figured as long as it had a tag on it you were fine. there is a guy on craigslist here in ohio that has had literall hundreds of mounts for sale lately. Now I wonder what the ohio laws are.


Maybe it 'just as illegal to buy them as it is to sell them, and is just another sting operation.


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

How in the world does a LEO know,come to the conclusion you do not know the law? They assumed you were breaking the law, which you were...so they busted you...Solohunter


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## jacobh (Jun 7, 2009)

sorry to hear about everything. nothing like kicking a man while hes down. That just goes to show you the world we live in today. I salute you for doing this. Willing to give things that you dont want to give to take care of his family should not be punished but congradulated. More people like this would make this world a better place in my opinion. Best of luck


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## crockett (Apr 6, 2008)

sorry it happened to you they suck!

only way out is pay the absolute best lawyer you can find or them!


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## crazy wolf (Sep 11, 2006)

First of all, do you have a clean record ? If so, take it to court plead your case. The whole Country is hurting right now , jobs are scares ect. Leave nothing out of your situation at home. You honestly didnt know , tell it to the jury and let them decide. People make honest mistakes everyday , just like you. I hope all goes well , and you find work soon. Good luck ! You still have a chance !



Crazy Wolf.


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## woodyicon (Apr 13, 2003)

*Sting*

If it was me ,I'd tell the judge to lock me up , then the govt ,county , state or what ever can take care of me and my whole family. See how that sounds to officers . As far as them doin thier job , since when doesnt COMMON SENSE, play a part .. Hell, if you were some illegal allien from somewhere , Nancy Pelosi would help ya . Good luck with your situation.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

You woud think that the wardens would not waste their tme with someone who is selling their personal mounts.
That had to be obvious to them.
Best if they kept answering ads until they actually found a poacher, but that would be work. Now the word gets out that they are doing this and forget about actually finding a poacher selling stuff.
To many law enforcement officers dont use common sense and just want to appear to be doing their job. Kind of like waiting a the bottom of a hill and writing speeding tickets for 8 miles per hour over the limit.

My 2 cents.

Best to work out the best deal you can and be done with it.

marty


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

To all the guys saying that the LEO's were wrong and should have told him it was illegal instead of busting him.....what?!?! 

If thats what they did to everyone what would be the point of a sting? How does an LEO know that someone is just ignorant or a crimial or both? This makes no sense.


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## Leafwalker (Oct 7, 2008)

Uncle Bucky said:


> Furthermore, I really do not believe that those laws should apply to any mount. Do not believe they are constitutionally correct.
> 
> If you shoot the animal, pay the license, follow the laws, pay taxes on the money you pay the taxidermist to mount it, they pay taxes on their income, they pay taxes on the mounting materials.
> 
> Then you should have the right to sell the mount


I agree completely. :thumbs_up


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## 1vabwhntr (Jan 11, 2005)

Sorry about your bad luck man. I feel for ya!

What type of construction were/are you in?


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## spoco57 (Aug 31, 2005)

Would it not have been more efficient use of taxpayers money to simply tell VanillaKilla that what he is doing is illegal? If he needs to make restitution, then so be it. I mean, they're not going to recover the money that was spent in setting him up, and the court expenses etc. are they? 

Sorry bud, that's difficult to swallow. Praying that you can find a way through it.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

A little common sense on the part of the "officers" would have gone a long way. Yes, I know why those laws exist, but to fine this guy $500 is really stupid. It's a deer mount. Oooooooo.....so rare. Give me a break. It's not like the guy was selling a mounted bald eagle.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

BuckWyld said:


> To all the guys saying that the LEO's were wrong and should have told him it was illegal instead of busting him.....what?!?!
> 
> If thats what they did to everyone what would be the point of a sting? How does an LEO know that someone is just ignorant or a crimial or both? This makes no sense.


The point of a sting should be to punish people who's INTENT was to break the law.
IMO

marty


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

zap said:


> The point of a sting should be to punish people who's INTENT was to break the law.
> IMO
> 
> marty


OK-lets run through your theory.

A hunter intentionally poaches an animal to feed his family. He is doing something admirable, but his INTENT when he went out was to knowinly illegally kill an animal i.e. break the law. Now What?


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

zap said:


> You woud think that the wardens would not waste their tme with someone who is selling their personal mounts.
> That had to be obvious to them.


Maybe not. The officers asked his friend if he was able to get additional mounts. He then referred them to the OP. This kind of "networking", no doubt made USFWS Officers take a closer look. That is exactly what those selling illegal game will do, pretend to be just a lone seller ignorant of the laws in an attempt to try and avoid looking like an large scale illegal operation.


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## buckeyboy (Feb 6, 2007)

They need Money Too!!!! 
Thats assinine redicioulis and a waste og taxpayer money. 
a public defender can win this case no problem.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Meleagris1 said:


> Maybe not. The officers asked his friend if he was able to get additional mounts and then referred them to the OP. This kind of "networking", no doubt made them take a closer look. That is exactly what those selling illegal game will do to try avoid looking like an large scale illegal operation.


It's not a large-scale operation. It's not an operation of any kind. It's a guy down on his luck trying to sell some things he probably doesn't even want to sell to pay some bills, and we reward him with an additional $500 he needs to come up with.

You know, as well as anyone else here, that this was utter bullchit. We're too easily brain-washed into thinking "the law is the law", and we've lost our ability to apply common sense.

Nothing was gained by this little sting. Nothing good that is.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

Your obviously right.
The wardens went undercover and arrested two guys selling 4 mounts.
They really put a dent in poaching activity.

By the way its not a theroy just common sense.
Too bad only a few have it, and the number goes down daily.

marty


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

MOC said:


> It's not a large-scale operation. It's not an operation of any kind. It's a guy down on his luck trying to sell some things he probably doesn't even want to sell to pay some bills, and we reward him with an additional $500 he needs to come up with.
> 
> You know, as well as anyone else here, that this was utter bullchit. We're too easily brain-washed into thinking "the law is the law", and we've lost our ability to apply common sense.
> 
> Nothing was gained by this little sting. Nothing good that is.


:teeth:

Well said.

marty


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

zap said:


> The point of a sting should be to punish people who's INTENT was to break the law.
> IMO
> 
> marty


Intent has nothing to do with it IMO. The law is the law. It sucks... but it is the law.


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## brad k (Jan 8, 2009)

*karma*

soon they will get theirs. they all think they have cush full benefit pension plan jobs. they will be out of work and broke busted much sooner than you think . just sit back and enjoy the show its going to be a good one.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

The court should be leniet with you, I would think. I bet if someone called those same officers and reported poaching it would be overlooked. That's how it would go around here anyway. I wish you the best.


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

MOC said:


> It's not a large-scale operation. It's not an operation of any kind. It's a guy down on his luck trying to sell some things he probably doesn't even want to sell to pay some bills, and we reward him with an additional $500 he needs to come up with.
> 
> You know, as well as anyone else here, that this was utter bullchit. We're too easily brain-washed into thinking "the law is the law", and we've lost our ability to apply common sense.
> 
> Nothing was gained by this little sting. Nothing good that is.


I disagree with the statement that nothing was gained......look at all the replys of "I didnt know that". All these folks just got educated. Granted, at the ultimate expense of the OP.


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## zap (Mar 13, 2008)

brad k said:


> soon they will get theirs. they all think they have cush full benefit pension plan jobs. they will be out of work and broke busted much sooner than you think . just sit back and enjoy the show its going to be a good one.


I bet Eurpoe goes first.

marty


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

MOC said:


> It's not a large-scale operation. It's not an operation of any kind.


Nobody said that it was. However, a valuable skill in life is being able to see more than one side of an issue. I was simply pointing out how the officers might be looking at this. Also, we have no idea what other similar activity has been or is going on regarding sale of migratory gamebirds. 

There are multiple levels of descretion in the judicial system, and my guess is that if everything the OP said is true, a judge will see the totality of the situation and make a decision accordingly.


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## rutnstrut (Sep 16, 2003)

For those looking down from your pedistals claiming ignorance is no defense,be careful it's a long fall. To the OP,fight this all the way,I bet you can get it at least reduced before going to court.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Whether or not the Leo's were being jerks or not, he is facing these charges. Crying how tough times are may garner sympathy but he actually commited the crime and even a sypathetic jury ill be required to find him guilty. A federal migratory bird violation is not something he really wants on his record. He needs professional help even if "lawyers are expensive". Hiring someone to actually help you instead of a lawyer who has a ton of cases just dumped on him by state (pulic defender) or trying to fumble your way through legal procedure is a very good idea. Once you sign the deal or are convicted it is almost impossible to get the things back off of your record where a good lawyer may be able to work a deal for summary violations that will satisfy the states desire for punishment and allow him to maintain a clean record in regards to be allowed to hunt and FFL screening.


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## Ron Bennington (Oct 22, 2009)

Gotta side with the officers on this one. They have a job to do - enforce existing laws - and that's what they did. There's not a whole lot of grey area in law enforcement.

Imagine how much trouble they could get into if they let everybody with an excuse off of the hook. Sure, yours was legit, but how are they supposed to know who is full of B.S. and who is telling the truth?

That's the role of the judicial system.

If justice is served in this case, you will go in front of a judge, explain yourself and your situation and will get off with either community service or some other slap on the wrist punishment.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

You need to consider court costs in fighting this. They will probably be more than your $500 fine. It sucks, but those laws are there for a reason and people down on their luck are more liable than anyone to break the law, so it is going to come down to a he said she said thing. It sucks, but ignorance to the laws does not make you innocent.

Chances are you are going to lose. If you rob a bank because you lost your job does that make it right? I feel for you losing your job, but you broke the law and they busted you. 

Again, if it was just you selling mounts or just your buddy, they may of let you off with a warning. But when he referred to you, that makes it a much bigger of a deal. How are they supposed to bust real poachers doing this if the ignorant get let free?


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## crazy wolf (Sep 11, 2006)

I think at least a Verbal Warning could have been issued , and if it was found later that this activity was taken place then charges could have been taken. How many here have been pulled over for speeding ? And only given a warning to slow it down. His reason is stated why he sold them , he now has to prove his case. Thats why we have a court system. Sounds like some already have put him as being guilty as charged , whats up w/ that ?


Crazy Wolf.


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## trimantrekokc (May 16, 2006)

as per the oklahoma game laws...i'm sure the SC laws are similar....it's up to you to know the regulations for your state....sorry for your misfortune, but ignorance of the law is not a defense the judge will buy...your situation may help him be easier on you

"Selling of Wildlife

Except as otherwise provided for by law, no person may buy, barter, trade, sell or offer, or expose for sale all or any part of any fish or wildlife or the nest or eggs of any bird, protected by law."


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Remember that nearly every game species on the planet was, at one point, nearly hunted to extinction for commercial sales. Not just for meat, but horns, hides, everything. These laws are in place for a good reason. That is not to say that this particular incident was reasonable. 

Just look at today's horn hysteria in the Whitetail world. Imagine if it were legal to sell mounted big bucks on the open market. There would be a big buck safe anywhere in the country whether it was behind a fence or otherwise. I can remember a 1/2 dozen instances of pet/tamed/farmed deer being poached so guys could win a big buck contest. 

No . . the laws are good ones and we can attribute our abundance of game we have today to them. This particular enforcement technique could have just as easily been handled with a warning . . unless there is more to the story. Who knows who else they were going after.


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## phipdeer (Aug 5, 2008)

MOC said:


> It's not a large-scale operation. It's not an operation of any kind. It's a guy down on his luck trying to sell some things he probably doesn't even want to sell to pay some bills, and we reward him with an additional $500 he needs to come up with.
> 
> You know, as well as anyone else here, that this was utter bullchit. We're too easily brain-washed into thinking "the law is the law", and we've lost our ability to apply common sense.
> 
> Nothing was gained by this little sting. Nothing good that is.


Geat reponse there. 
I can assure you that I also being unemployed due to other peoples ignorance. Feel I am truly a peer of yours and if I was on a jury NO WAY would this stand. 
If you don't fight this we all lose!


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## DenCMSC (Jul 30, 2007)

Unfortunately, as has been said, the cost of fighting this issue will likely cost more than the fine. If it were me, though, I'd fight it all the way. Do you have a public defender, or have you retained an attorney of your choice? Either way, I'd be happy to chip in a few bucks to help see you through...and I'd be very shocked if many more AT'ers didn't chip in as well....Archers Helping Archers, my friend....Let me know if I can help.


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## superslamsam (Nov 24, 2004)

To the people who say that "ignorance is no excuse" get a life. When will you guys be happy, when the gov't controls every decision of your life for you. Do you not see the hypocracy of those in power making all these rules for us to follow. It is no secret that they are the biggest crooks of all most of the time. This was nothing more than a revenue generator for the state. To the OP go with the jury, because I can promise you under your circumstances that I would never vote guilty if I were on the jury.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

As said above, you definitely need to figure out how this affects your future hunting privileges. I would think you could find this out from the clerk of courts or your local fish and game office.

I think your best bet is to go to your local fish and game office and explain your situation and see what your options are. Even if you get a lawyer pro bono, this is still going to cost you money in court costs and what not. If you don't lose any hunting privileges, again unfortunately with your financial situation your best bet is probably just paying the ticket, take it as a lesson learned, and move on.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Baldona523 said:


> You need to consider court costs in fighting this. They will probably be more than your $500 fine. It sucks, but those laws are there for a reason and people down on their luck are more liable than anyone to break the law, so it is going to come down to a he said she said thing. It sucks, but ignorance to the laws does not make you innocent.
> 
> Chances are you are going to lose. If you rob a bank because you lost your job does that make it right? I feel for you losing your job, but you broke the law and they busted you.
> 
> Again, if it was just you selling mounts or just your buddy, they may of let you off with a warning. But when he referred to you, that makes it a much bigger of a deal. How are they supposed to bust real poachers doing this if the ignorant get let free?


 The lawyer may work out to more than the monetary fine but what other consequences occur because of the violation. That is why the extra money for the legal representation while painful is necessary. I know of a guy who got in a bar fight he didn't start, both men in the fight were charged to the max by the police, the public defender talked him into taking a deal with a suspended sentence with a fine failing to tell him that since the max penalty for that charge carried a sentence of more than a year in prison (even though he didn't do any jail time). He can no longer own/buy guns with FFL restrictions now in place. He has since paid for a lawyer who at the time could have worked a deal to allow him to keep gun ownership rights but since he plead in open court and it was closed is unable to restore gun ownership rights to him ever. Personal feelings of what is right, wrong, fair, or cheaper aside, he needs professional assistance.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

rutnstrut said:


> For those looking down from your pedistals claiming ignorance is no defense,be careful it's a long fall. To the OP,fight this all the way,I bet you can get it at least reduced before going to court.


For those staring up from the ground, it is called *PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY*. Get some, it is a valuable resource. 

Point is, you broke the law (no matter how unknowingly) and you got busted for it. Man up and accept it. Fight it and hopefully for you, you win and don't have to pay... but accept that what you did was YOUR call... You put yourself in that situation. It may not seem like it as you were doing what had to be done to feed your family but it was still your call.

I also don't see how stating that "ignorance is no excuse" makes me a government lapdog. I know my rights and I enjoy my freedoms. I don't agree with all laws but I cannot condone one breaking a law due to ignorance of that law.


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## crazy wolf (Sep 11, 2006)

Cajun83 said:


> For those staring up from the ground, it is called *PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY*. Get some, it is a valuable resource.
> 
> Point is, you broke the law (no matter how unknowingly) and you got busted for it. Man up and accept it. Fight it and hopefully for you, you win and don't have to pay... but accept that what you did was YOUR call... You put yourself in that situation. It may not seem like it as you were doing what had to be done to feed your family but it was still your call.
> 
> I also don't see how stating that "ignorance is no excuse" makes me a government lapdog. I know my rights and I enjoy my freedoms. I don't agree with all laws but I cannot condone one breaking a law due to ignorance of that law.





And there are those who were found guilty of a crime , only later to be found innocent of such a act. Not True ? 



Crazy Wolf.


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## gport (Apr 6, 2006)

I feel for the OP but get tired of people saying officers are jerks for doing their job. They have a no win situation. The law is in place for a reason. For all we know one of the officers was on the computer on his own time saw the sale and knew it was against the law. So they set up a sale and busted him. Saying you didn't know is like telling the officer you didn't see the stop sign you blew through or the speed limit sign that changed the speed from 70 to 55. Does it suck yes but dont hate the officers for doing their job. Seems like hunters are the first to complain when someone gets busted and then the first to complain when they dont have an officer at thier beckon call when they see something illegal happen.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

crazy wolf said:


> And there are those who were found guilty of a crime , only later to be found innocent of such a act. Not True ?
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy Wolf.


Absolutely... Not the case here though as the OP admitted to breaking that particular law.

I am not saying the system is perfect. It is far from it and your response has little to do with the situation at hand. 

I was responding to those who are getting upset because some of us here believe in personal responsibility. You did it, man up and accept the consequences or fight it... but do so without bashing the police officers who were doing thier jobs (oh... you mean making money to feed their families... just like the OP was attempting to do)... hrmm.. wierd how that works.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

It sucks the OP is currently out of a job, but in reality if he doesn't lose any hunting privileges this is only a $500 dollar fine for a potential federal offense. I know people that have had $250 plus speeding tickets in speed traps for going 20 over. Sucks, but it happens.

I agree 100% in this law that he broke, and I did not know all the details of the law until now either. Given that, the GWs did their job and it is not like one guy sold one mount, they busted a possible crime ring. The OP needs to try and get as much relief on this as possible, but in the end he was guilty I do not think you can argue with that.


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## kenmack (Dec 6, 2008)

S'pose you sell the form, glass eyes and plaque but allow the buyer to keep (or not) the cape and anters for free?


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## crazy wolf (Sep 11, 2006)

I still believe if his record is clean , the chance of this being dropped is very good. We need not to forget he is still innocent, and til proven otherwise. I am in no means perfect , and have made honest mistakes. Who here has not done the same.



Crazy Wolf.


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## Elgavilan (Feb 7, 2010)

As most have stated, federal law states that you cannot sell any part of wild taken migratory birds, so ducks, geese, cranes, etc. cannot be sold in the US. This is there to prevent a recourance of the market hunting that decimated several species at the turn of the century. Resident species are a different story and are regulated by each state, so you need to check with the local Game and Fish office to verify what that states laws are. 

As for your citation, it was probably bad form for the state guys to issue citations in this case. They could have done a much better service if they had given you a warning and educated you and not written citations, however the federal law does not require previous knowledge so technically you were in violation. Probably the best way to handle the ticket is to just show up in court, be totally honest, explain the situation and you might be surprised at the outcome, worst case scenario is the $500 plus some court costs. Most local courts, including federal magistrates, will understand and will reduce the fine to 1/2 or less. If you get a lawyer, go to court etc. you might win, but the cost for the lawyer and your time will be far greater than just keeping it local.

My advise comes from working 25 years as a federal wildlife law enforcement officer on national wildlife refuges all over the west.

Mike


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

The intent of a "no selling wildlife law" is to stop those exploiting and damaging the wildlife population. Poachers or others trafficking in game animals illegally taken is it's intended target, not some guy unloading an old duck or deer mount to pay his electric bill. Yes it's technically a violation but the big question is it right? We had a representative here get elected, move into his office in the state capitol and bring in some shed antlers from his farm. He was informed that was illegal to possess. He went right into the general assembly and got a law passed changing that. Times change and that law is not useful as it's written. 

Your 2 options are to take it and forget it or make such a stink that the law gets changed to allow for something harmless and out of it's intent like your case to occur. Still shame on a game dept that would stoop to something like this. They're not protecting the wildlife but I think it's more of a revenue generating event than justice. In these tight times states are looking for any reason and place to get new funds. You just happened to be it.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Meleagris1 said:


> However, a valuable skill in life is being able to see more than one side of an issue.


You mean like the ability to differentiate between a guy down on his luck looking to unload a single shoulder-mounted whitetail versus, say, a large-scale poaching operation? Or do you mean the ability to see the side of an issue such as selling a shoulder mount for a little cash versus the intent of this law meant to discourage poaching and the selling of mounts?

Either way, I certainly agree with you. I'd go one step further and suggest that this ability to which you speak might be called "common sense" by some.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

gport said:


> I feel for the OP but get tired of people saying officers are jerks for doing their job. They have a no win situation. The law is in place for a reason. For all we know one of the officers was on the computer on his own time saw the sale and knew it was against the law. So they set up a sale and busted him. Saying you didn't know is like telling the officer you didn't see the stop sign you blew through or the speed limit sign that changed the speed from 70 to 55. Does it suck yes but dont hate the officers for doing their job. Seems like hunters are the first to complain when someone gets busted and then the first to complain when they dont have an officer at thier beckon call when they see something illegal happen.


There is a "win situation". They could have used their ability to reason and figured out this guy wasn't part of a grand-scale poaching operation, informed him what he was doing was illegal, and even written him a warning. The effect would have been the same.

I'm sure you've never been issued a warning by a cop who pulled you over for speeding when you didn't know you were? Same concept. You figured it out, and you drove more carefully. 

This was just another attempt of fill the coffer than we're already filling.


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## gobblengrunt (May 23, 2006)

taxidermy is sold by selling the "work" and not the "horns". it is illegal to buy and sell meat, horns, claws, etc. in most states but a mount can be sold in most states by putting a price on the labor and materials put in to a particular mount. these laws are to protect wildlife from being shot and sold for profit but too many wlidlife officers use it as an easy summons charging a legally shot animal being sold as a mount.


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## Whaack (Apr 2, 2006)

Hmm, selling your own mount that you paid for and shot yourself is illegal? Seriously what is this world coming to. Sorry to hear about your situation.


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

Lets change things a bit here to get both sides......Lets suppose everyone on this thread woke up this morning and the headlines of the local paper read " Two Local Hunters arrested in sting operation for illegally selling animal mounts" It would be interesting how many of the people on here defending the OP in this case would be calling him names and making claims that he got what he deserves without knowing the facts. This headline would suit the bill for this case just fine, so what say you?


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## seeya (May 8, 2009)

*The law*

Hope all comes out well; sorry to hear about your house as well; prayers for you and your family;

Question for you legal pros.......how do people that makes knifes with deer or elk handles, or people who makes other items using hides, ect sell them and not get in trouble; they also make lamps out of antlers and SELL them so if it is illegal to sell mounts why do others get to sell "parts" of animals and it's o.k.?


Next time don't use the term "sell" use the the term "for a donation"; if they ask what's the donation for, tell them it goes to feed the hungry; they can't do a da$% thing about that.......:darkbeer:


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

BuckWyld said:


> Lets change things a bit here to get both sides......Lets suppose everyone on this thread woke up this morning and the headlines of the local paper read " Two Local Hunters arrested in sting operation for illegally selling animal mounts" It would be interesting how many of the people on here defending the OP in this case would be calling him names and making claims that he got what he deserves without knowing the facts. This headline would suit the bill for this case just fine, so what say you?


Very good point. I think that because the hunter came in here and explained his situation and gave his story about being down and out... changes people's opinions. If it were a headline I assume there would be a different tune in here.

Sure, this guy isn't a poacher, nobody is stating that he is... but what about the last poacher you read about. Was he just doing it to feed his little girls? Or does that not matter because he didn't explain himself first?


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## J-Daddy (Aug 7, 2003)

P&y only said:


> Your particular case is a sad one. A jury may help you out. But the law is not a dumb law. It was designed to stop people from poaching animals, especially deer, getting them mounted and selling them to some low life rich scumbag who doesn't have the time or energy to go shoot his own "TROPHY". People will pay BIG bucks for a mounted trophy deer and this is why alot of poachers do what they do. However, in your case, the officers were probably well aware that u weren't a money poacher and could have stopped you from selling the items without the ticket. I'm not positive but I think the fact that it was a duck made it illegal in all states under the migratory bird act. Ducks on ebay usually say they were pen raised and have some sort of proof like a permit to raise them and a band number or something to that affect. Some states do not allow any animal to be sold accept for hides. Sorry you got nailed by some overzealous officers but I'm in favor of the law. We just need officers who can think!


I agree with P&y only here "and wow that's like the smartest paragraph I've ever heard you put together, lol"..The law isnt a bad thing and hopefully helps stop alot of scumbags from making money off of poaching....But at the same time it's a damn shame they busted you after you told them what was going on in your life..I understand they have a job to do but they also need to have a heart I think and when a guy explains their situation like you did before you ever take their money then the officer should step back and say "Look man, I can get you for this, it's illegal, but I see your having a rough run of luck right now, so dont do it and dont make me come back here again." It sucks dude, I hope it works out for you in the end.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

It is illegal in ANY state to sell any part of any migratory bird, unless you can provide documentation to prove that it was pen-raised. 

I do believe you when you say that you didn't know. Most people don't. I also think that they may be going overboard a bit with the whole sting operation....but it's the law, and you can't say that anyone did anything wrong except you.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

J-Daddy said:


> I agree with P&y only here "and wow that's like the smartest paragraph I've ever heard you put together, lol"..The law isnt a bad thing and hopefully helps stop alot of scumbags from making money off of poaching....But at the same time it's a damn shame they busted you after you told them what was going on in your life..I understand they have a job to do but they also need to have a heart I think and when a guy explains their situation like you did before you ever take their money then the officer should step back and say "Look man, I can get you for this, it's illegal, but I see your having a rough run of luck right now, so dont do it and dont make me come back here again." It sucks dude, I hope it works out for you in the end.



This is the thing though... everybody in prison is innocent... everybody was "forced" to do something by some extenuating circumstances... you think people, upon getting arrested or ticketed, tell the truth? 

If you believe that, I have some magic beans I can sell you for a real good price.

Not saying the guy is lying but nearly everyone I have ever seen on any police show, makes up some sob story to get out of a ticket... I watched a guy sit there and flat out LIE infront of witnesses about a crime... because he didn't want to go to jail.


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

Cajun83 said:


> For those staring up from the ground, it is called *PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY*. Get some, it is a valuable resource.
> 
> Point is, you broke the law (no matter how unknowingly) and you got busted for it. Man up and accept it. Fight it and hopefully for you, you win and don't have to pay... but accept that what you did was YOUR call... You put yourself in that situation. It may not seem like it as you were doing what had to be done to feed your family but it was still your call.
> 
> I also don't see how stating that "ignorance is no excuse" makes me a government lapdog. I know my rights and I enjoy my freedoms. I don't agree with all laws but I cannot condone one breaking a law due to ignorance of that law.


Very well said. Solohunter


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## Mattyv97 (Mar 30, 2009)

man that does suck, i feel really bad for you. but on the other end the law is the law and theres no getting around that...


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

Good Luck in whatever you do, I am on your side.

Unfortunatly, in our good old U.S.A. if you've worked all your life & paid your taxes & Dues & If there comes a time you would need help-you can't get. You have to much (yea right) because you WORKED all your life & took care of your family & SAVED.
Now if your an illigal we'll take care of you or an immigrant we'll give you "special" treatment & even cash or maybe pay your rent or exempt you from taxes in your business, if your a druggie or drunk & never worked we'll send you to rehab & find a place you can get free food & a place to stay & oh yea, here's a card, you can go to the DR for free whenever your A-- itches. These are things that I have seen 1st hand.
Again Good Luck.

I'm not a big movie person but watch FELON. See what happens to the guy protecting his family from a scumbag.

Cabelas recently had ads for Mounts being sold-many in the 160 class stating $600, store pickup only & yes, they also buy. I'm guessing state laws prevail except in case of federal regulated game animals/birds & then it's federal laws. Lot's of laws on Bears as poachers sell gauls, teeth & Claws, hides for big $$$.
Animals parts is a REAL BIG business from what I have heard over the years.

Again, good luck & I hope something turns around for your family.

You know, Fox News or some other big news outfit might be interested in your story.
Human interest. Family in rough times & now this. I don't think Contacting them can not hurt you but make millions aware. I'll say a prayer for you & yours..


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## Red Fletch (Apr 25, 2008)

Hokiehunter06 said:


> I feel bad for you getting busted without knowing that it is illegal. I knew it was illegal, because my dad does a little taxidermy. The law is intended to prevent market hunting. No one wants hunting to turn into a commercial operation where people shoot as many mallards, turkeys, etc just to have them mounted and sold to people and businesses that want to have them on display. You can't sell any of the meat for the same reason. A bear hunting club near where I live was busted for selling the bear gall. Apparently it's highly valued in some Asian cultures. It is a good law that prevents marketing hunting for meat/antlers/organs/hides. Today, hunting is intended to be recreation and not for profit. If you want to raise monster bucks and game on a farm like livestock then that's a different story. That's too bad you were busted though.
> 
> If there is an open market for trophy bucks, wild game meat, organs, etc, then there is an even larger incentive for people to commit more serious game violations like hunting at night, exceeding the bag limit, etc.


This is exaclty why it is illegal to sell or buy them because it would make matters much worse for hunters and the wildlife. Think of how many road hunters would be out if they could legally sell their kills.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

So how come the officers aren't guilty of a crime for buying the mounts from you? 

I hate these "crimes" that would not exist if the LEO wasn't there committing them.


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## united by chaos (Feb 7, 2010)

I never like hearing stories like this one...Any lawers on A.T. willin to help him out? 
It's bad enough to hear another brother in the construction trade is out of work, but hearing "Get the best Lawyer you can afford"....He was trying to make ends meet by selling his stuff.
Good luck with your case and hope you get back on you feet soon.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Elgavilan said:


> If you get a lawyer, go to court etc. you might win, but the cost for the lawyer and your time will be far greater than just keeping it local.
> 
> My advise comes from working 25 years as a federal wildlife law enforcement officer on national wildlife refuges all over the west.
> 
> Mike


 and if one of the violations has a top end sentence precluding him from purchasing/owning firearms in the future the cost of a layer was still far greater than keeping fast and local?

Lawyers are not my favorite people but they are a necessary evil to safeguard my rights because the lawyers on the other side are only worried about my rights up to and to the point of not infringing on them in a way that destroys their case. Any loss of rights after the deal is not their concern and once the deal is signed those rights are forever gone, no fixing it.

On a side note thank you for your years of service as a wco. Not enough hunters take the time to thank you for the job you do even though most of you are avid hunters who have to give up part of your season while I can selfishly enjoy the entire thing.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

skynight said:


> I hate these "crimes" that would not exist if the LEO wasn't there committing them.


SO you are saying that if this LEO wouldn't have purchased these mounts... that this guy wouldn't have sold them?

The LEO didn't contact them out of the blue and say "Hey, guys... would you happen to have some game mounts to sell?" No. They advertised and sold. The officer simply caught on to them before they got away with it. 

Don't even TRY to pull some "entrapment" claim here... 

So like baitcar... if the LEO's wouldn't have that car out there... those people wouldn't have stolen a car... you know everyone is a good law abiding citizen until the cops show up and then they just can't help but break the law...

ukey:


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

:zip:


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## Drawin Deadly (Jan 15, 2009)

*Pbj*

I would ask for Probation before Judgement. You might want to ask before going to trial. You will need to contact the District Attorney and make your case. You would end up probably paying the fines and court fees but as long as you do not repeat the offense they will drop it from your records.

I am not a lawyer nor am I experienced but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express!:shade:


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

To the OP:

I know you want to request a jury of your peers, but in this case you may be better off going before the judge. For one, you won't know who is on the jury and how they really feel about hunting, animal mounts, etc. Your "peers" may not share your enthusiasm in the outdoors. Second, the prosecutor will more than likely go for the harshest sentence simply because you exercised your right to a jury trial and you're "wasting" taxpayer's dollars. Your lawyer should be able to tell you more about the judge and his/her leanings in regard to your case. Third, it will be easier to plead your case to one person vs a whole jury. 

This is difficult time for you and your family. I wish you luck...


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## Tom_in_CT (Mar 11, 2008)

crazy wolf said:


> First of all, do you have a clean record ? If so, take it to court plead your case. The whole Country is hurting right now , jobs are scares ect. Leave nothing out of your situation at home. You honestly didnt know , tell it to the jury and let them decide. People make honest mistakes everyday , just like you. I hope all goes well , and you find work soon. Good luck ! You still have a chance !
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy Wolf.


+1 good luck man, that sucks!


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## weave (Oct 17, 2002)

While it is true that the "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", I want to meet the person who knows every law in the county, state, and in the country.....no one does, not all of them....I bet not even 1/4 of them.

The U.S. citizen is not given a book on laws, not taught them in school, and therefore have no way to know that they are breaking some obscure law not many would know about.

I would think, that given the circumstances, and if you have a clean record, the judge will toss this one out.


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## DRT (Jul 9, 2007)

They are contolling everything you do now, Welcome to the land of the free. What is really going to suck is when someone throws away a mount cause it is old a raged and they get arrested for waste of game. To me you selling those mounts is no difference than selling furbearer pelts to a dealer. We have enough problems in this country as it is and deer and duck mounts is not one of them. People in all law makeing and law enforceing careers and positions need to wake up. This is not right.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

skynight said:


> So how come the officers aren't guilty of a crime for buying the mounts from you?
> 
> I hate these "crimes" that would not exist if the LEO wasn't there committing them.



So.....how are they supposed to catch people doing something like this?

Do you really think this guy wouldn't have sold it to anyone else? Seriously?


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## lawdawg (Feb 28, 2006)

I have read through a few posts and have seen a lot of people suggesting you plead your case to a jury hoping they will be sympathetic. There is no doubt that a jury will be sympathetic, the problem and risk you run is that the judge can (and probably should) direct a verdict at the close of the evidence and the jury never gets the opportunity to decide. 

Best bet is to get an attorney. If you can't afford one, you should be able to get the public defender.


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## zyxw (Feb 19, 2007)

BuckWyld said:


> Bingo- Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
> 
> To the OP-your better off just pleading guilty to the a Judge. A jury will not sympathize with you if your only defense is "I just didnt know"


I don't know about that. Considering the circumstances if told to a jury no way 12 will vote guilty. Let's just see on here who would vote what. I definatley would vote not guilty. 
The problems that exist with law enforcement and punishment in this country is appalling. There are very few officers who do their job the way they should and enforce the laws with a little common sense applied. It is obvious that a guy selling one mallard duck is not a market hunter making a living selling wildlife. Only a guy needing money during hard time. So what do they do make it harder on him. Yea, that's real smart. Now someone like that will get fined and or probation but I watch the news every day and career violent offenders get arrested every day for the 10th, 15th, 20th time and are back on the streets doing it over and over. Yea our justice system is really working to help the people. NOT!! Sorry guess I should have posted all that in the "prt peeve" thread:mg:


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

VanillaKilla said:


> Well where do I start. I was in construction and have been unemployed for over a year. Things have been getting harder and harder. We are scheduled to lose our home in March. This being said I need to get some money together to find a place for me, my wife, and 3 kids. So I put an add on craigslist to start selling furniture, mower, 4 wheeler. I also listed my taxidermy. I have a friend who listed a mounted mallard on craigslist. So he gets a call on it and a guy comes to his house last friday to look at it. Asking him if he has anymore he says no but I have a friend who has some, and he gives him my number. The guy calls me and I setup a meeting for yesterday morning. The guy then calls my friend back and sets up the same time. Long story short undercover wildlife officers buy 1 mallard mount from him and one whitetail shoulder mount and a pair of mounted mallards from me. During the 30 minutes I spent with this officer telling him my situation he never mentioned that what I was about to do was illegal. Being completely clueless that it was illegal to sell a deer or duck mount they lead me into their "sting". So they fine me $500, set a court date, and confiscate my mounts. I am beside myself that 6 no really six state paid employees have time to do this!!!!. My friend received the same and his 65 yr old mother a warning because she accepted the $ when he was at work. I still can't believe that knowing I had no idea that what I was about to do was illegal, "we knew you were negligent" quoting one officer, and rather than just telling me they, they "have to do our job" and bust me!! I have asked everyone I know if they knew it was illegal, all but 1 had no clue. I really wonder why the couldn't have said "look this is illegal" and I would not have sold them and he could have saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars and no crime would have been committed. I believe this is a small sign as to how our government is ridiculous. The reason they have 6 officers protecting "stuffed animals" is to create revenue rather than layoff a few people!!!! Still in disbelief. And I do believe I will be requesting a Jury of peers!!!!


the only way it would be legal is if the mount was mounted before 1970 and you can prove it. or if its pen raised. These are also federal charges.I think the fine was Just bail. I would expect to pay lots more in fines. I understand that you did not relize,But that dont chage things . I not saying its right. good luck


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## ks.bowhunter (Jan 20, 2009)

eorlando said:


> Don't big stores like basspro and cabella's buy mounts as well???? I thought I had heard of them buying mounts to be displyed in their stores. Is this true and ifso how do they get away with it????


Yes they do and they also offered mounted birds for sale in the catalog.


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## tjandy (Jun 10, 2005)

VanillaKilla said:


> I won't let a judge decide this. I am going into the court and requesting a jury trial which is my right according to the back of the citation.


Good for you. :thumb: That is ridiculous. Why don't they just give a call and explain the law the first time. No wonder the antis are so strong. When you have these types not will to assist, just deal out fines. 

I hope you are able to make them look as ridiculous are they are. 
What happened to trying to help people. :noidea:


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## mrbreeze (Feb 1, 2008)

solohunter said:


> State your case and see how it goes, then move on, live and learn....Solohunter


Bad advice.

If you aren't going to get a lawyer, plead "Stand Mute" to the charge. It is treated as a not guilty, but it will let you get a conference with the prosecutor, and will likely cut you a deal.


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## Elgavilan (Feb 7, 2010)

Jarocal said:


> and if one of the violations has a top end sentence precluding him from purchasing/owning firearms in the future the cost of a layer was still far greater than keeping fast and local?
> 
> Lawyers are not my favorite people but they are a necessary evil to safeguard my rights because the lawyers on the other side are only worried about my rights up to and to the point of not infringing on them in a way that destroys their case. Any loss of rights after the deal is not their concern and once the deal is signed those rights are forever gone, no fixing it.
> 
> On a side note thank you for your years of service as a wco. Not enough hunters take the time to thank you for the job you do even though most of you are avid hunters who have to give up part of your season while I can selfishly enjoy the entire thing.


These are misdomeaner offenses and none of them preclude firearms ownership. A state could file for hunting license revocation, but I doubt that would occur with this infraction. If it was a federal citation, the $500 bond is actually an administrative fee, no admission of guilt, you just put the check in the envelope and mail it in, it does not even go on your "record" like a driving infraction would.

Mike


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Elgavilan said:


> These are misdomeaner offenses and none of them preclude firearms ownership. A state could file for hunting license revocation, but I doubt that would occur with this infraction. If it was a federal citation, the $500 bond is actually an administrative fee, no admission of guilt, you just put the check in the envelope and mail it in, it does not even go on your "record" like a driving infraction would.
> 
> Mike


I am not positive, but the charge for attempting to sell the duck is likely a federal charge, since waterfowl is covered by federal regs.


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

Elgavilan said:


> These are misdomeaner offenses and none of them preclude firearms ownership. A state could file for hunting license revocation, but I doubt that would occur with this infraction. If it was a federal citation, the $500 bond is actually an administrative fee, no admission of guilt, you just put the check in the envelope and mail it in, it does not even go on your "record" like a driving infraction would.
> 
> Mike


 A misdomeaner is a crime. its nothing like a driving infraction. In my state a misdomeneaner charge will get you pistol's taken away. Just happend to a friend of mine. Notice I said charge, he was not convited of it. Lost 23 hand guns. Plus I think these are fed charges and will likely go fed court


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Normally, I'm one of those to say "ignorance of the law is no excuse" but this case seems different.

If you have property, it is generally yours to sell. This law is counter the intuitive law. The government should do a better job educating sportsmen about this law if it is so important.

And your case is clearly different than a poacher who sets up a business dealing in illegal taxidermy. You and your buddy were just regular folks selling off your property to keep afloat for another few months.

I think the appropriate punishment in this case is a formal (recorded) warning to you and your buddy.

I really do hope you get a jury trial and the folks see the picture clearly enough to let you go with a warning.

Ray


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## preacherjack (Aug 23, 2005)

I would like to see the Wildlife Divisions in all states do a better job of informing the public of new laws and existing ones. Because of the internet they pretty much leave it up to you to find out. You license fee should cover an up to date publication each year, mailed to your door. Here in NC they are constantly changing hunting and fishing laws. We have 4 regions and 9 districts and laws and season dates are different in each one. Last year my brother and I got stopped in the river by a game warden and he tried to give us a citation. We knew more about the law than he did. He radioed headquarters in Raleigh and let us go, I know that he had to feel stupid. 
I hope you get out of this one. Seems you got caught in someone else's trap.


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## bucksnortinted (Aug 24, 2006)

I hope things turn around for the good for you and your family.
that is a bad situation you are in and a law i was not aware of either,if you have a clean record with no history of any violations i think you would be better off with a jury trial myself i would rather plead my case to twelve jurers
than to one judge in this case anyway,being out of work and them knowing this is the only reason you were selling them was to provide for your family
and you did not have them advertised your friend sent them to you and you did tell the officers why you were selling them even though what you were doing was illegal but it was also unintentional,i think you will be alot better off with a jury trial if it even makes it that far hopefully it will get dismissed
we will definately keep you in are prayers and hope that God will give you favor with man and that you will find some work,
God Bless

Ted


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## zyxw (Feb 19, 2007)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Normally, I'm one of those to say "ignorance of the law is no excuse" but this case seems different.
> 
> If you have property, it is generally yours to sell. This law is counter the intuitive law. The government should do a better job educating sportsmen about this law if it is so important.
> 
> ...


 totally agree


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## Cornfed (Oct 15, 2002)

I've heard many times over the years that the regs for migratory waterfowl were pretty strict, none of this realy surprises me. As mentioned though, it sure seems a serious waste of your DNR's resources!


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## GusGus30125 (Mar 5, 2009)

Sorry you're down on you luck and it sucks that you were busted. I agree that laws are laws but if they were read black and white, lawyers wouldnt be necessary. Id get with a good lawyer and see what your options are. In GA selling a mount would be legal. It is legal to sell the hide and antler of a Whitetail deer. Good luck to you.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Elgavilan said:


> These are misdomeaner offenses and none of them preclude firearms ownership. A state could file for hunting license revocation, but I doubt that would occur with this infraction. If it was a federal citation, the $500 bond is actually an administrative fee, no admission of guilt, you just put the check in the envelope and mail it in, it does not even go on your "record" like a driving infraction would.
> 
> Mike


 "The sale or barter of migratory birds is a felony punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 (500,000 per organization) and/or up to two years in
prison."

http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FactSheetTaxidermistFront&Back.pdf

Even though he is not a taxidermist, the sale of unpermitted migratory birds carries a maximum that can preclude him from future firearm purchases under ffl regs. That is why he needs a Legal Professional. It is not what he pleads to on the minimum, it is what the maximum penalty is that triggers ffl checks. 

He consults a lawyer who charges him 500 bucks to say go ahead and plead to X, you will still be able to own guns and hunt. That is better than listening to a bunch of people who are not used to the legal process, may not be familiar with current laws, and could possibly end up costing him his right to gun ownership in the future.

I am a mason not a lawyer. If a lawyer wants a wall or fireplace he calls me because I understand the mechanical bond properties of cementitious compounds and building regulatory codes in my field better than he does. When it comes to possibly losing rights, I am poor, but smart enough to know it is better to spend the money and make sure my rights are preserved rather than try to be my own legal superstar and end up on this forum in the fall bemoaning how much I miss hunting.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

There is no way this will go to a jury trial. A $500 fine will never go that far, the judge will reduce the sentence or give you a warning before that happens. It is not worth the courts time or money. But the OP needs to remember this is only $500 fine plus the other clerk costs. It may work out cheaper to not go to the judge and just pay the fine, you have to pay court costs to go in front of the judge.

In the end, if the OP has a good clean record, and is honest with the judge, I am sure this will work out fine. 

Shame on anyone who says law enforcement or the DNR was in the wrong here. They did their job. Who knows how many mounts the OP was trying to sell. If you watch one episode of Cops you will see the nonsense people say when they are arrested. I am sorry for his situation, but that does not warrant him breaking the law or worse, warrant people on this board to say what they do about the law and DNR. I went to the South Carolina regs online and found in 1 minute the laws. 

_Selling Game Animals
It is unlawful to sell, except by special permit, any protected wildlife. Furbearing animals may be sold with a valid commercial fur harvest license. See commercial fur harvest regulations._


Furthermore: 
_South Carolina law has established suspension systems based upon the accumulation of points assessed for convictions of natural resource laws.

The Game and Fish Point System applies to violations inland of the saltwater/freshwater dividing line and if suspended under this system, a person cannot hunt, fish, gather, trap, land, or pursue game, fish, crustaceans, or shellfish in the State (including coastal waters out to the three mile limit).

The Saltwater Point System applies to violations within the coastal waters of the State, seaward of the saltwater/freshwater dividing line. The point categories for assessments are recreational and commercial. Points are assessed according to the appropriate category. Upon accumulation of 18 or more points in the recreational or commercial categories, a person’s privileges to fish, gather, land, attempt to take, or possess fish, shellfish, or crustaceans within the coastal waters for the purposes of the affected category will be suspended.

Each time a person is convicted of a violation listed in the point systems, the Department must assess the points against the person’ s record. Half of the points on record are reduced for each full year in which the person receives no points. The Department of Natural Resources must suspend the privileges of any person who has accumulated eighteen (18) or more points._
_
4. Hunting, fishing, or trapping out of season 10 points

5. Unlawful selling of game or game fish 14 points

9. Trespassing to hunt, fish, or trap 10 points_

So, for all those worrying about all this nonsense, he will only get 14 points off of his license. It takes 18 to lose a license, and half your points are reduced for every year that he does not get any points.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

Sneaky Apasum said:


> So.....how are they supposed to catch people doing something like this?
> 
> Do you really think this guy wouldn't have sold it to anyone else? Seriously?


I'm sure he would have sold it to someone else. How they catch him really isn't my concern. But catching the seller and the purchaser after the crime affords the opportunity to catch two criminals and prosecute an actual crime.


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## fap1800 (Aug 9, 2004)

mikedgates said:


> A misdomeaner is a crime. its nothing like a driving infraction. In my state a misdomeneaner charge will get you pistol's taken away. Just happend to a friend of mine. Notice I said charge, he was not convited of it. Lost 23 hand guns. Plus I think these are fed charges and will likely go fed court


that's because you live in ny.


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## kaborkian (May 26, 2007)

First off, I'm VERY against big government and lack of freedoms. Let me restate...I HATE the current administration and what they are attempting to do, including making what may appear to be non-sensical laws that serve no purpose other than entrapment and control.

HOWEVER, we CANNOT go around ignoring laws just because we think they are stupid (even if we are right). There are processes in place to "fix" these "broken" laws. Call your congressman/senator. VOTE, and for the right candidate, from the smallest local election to the President.

Assuming your story is 100% true, and I don't have any reason to doubt it, it does indeed suck that you got caught. But the bottom line is still the same...you broke the law. You now have a choice. Pay your fine, which is probably the easiest and cheapest way out, or get a good lawyer and fight that the law is unjust. 

If a Judge/Jury of your peers does their job and enforces the law, going to court will just take time and get you a verdict of Guilty.


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## rip125 (Jan 6, 2003)

give the guy a break people he did not intentionaly break the law. and second who the hell are you to tell him o well you broke the law live with it.if it were you you would be upset also.get off your high horse.


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

Elgavilan said:


> As most have stated, federal law states that you cannot sell any part of wild taken migratory birds, so ducks, geese, cranes, etc. cannot be sold in the US. This is there to prevent a recourance of the market hunting that decimated several species at the turn of the century. Resident species are a different story and are regulated by each state, so you need to check with the local Game and Fish office to verify what that states laws are.
> 
> As for your citation, it was probably bad form for the state guys to issue citations in this case. They could have done a much better service if they had given you a warning and educated you and not written citations, however the federal law does not require previous knowledge so technically you were in violation. Probably the best way to handle the ticket is to just show up in court, be totally honest, explain the situation and you might be surprised at the outcome, worst case scenario is the $500 plus some court costs. Most local courts, including federal magistrates, will understand and will reduce the fine to 1/2 or less. If you get a lawyer, go to court etc. you might win, but the cost for the lawyer and your time will be far greater than just keeping it local.
> 
> ...


This is really good advise, i'd take it and see what happens

I understand why , especially with waterfowl, we need to be very careful. However there cannot be that many people wanting to buy mounts that it would turn into that. I'd imagine there are millions of birds harvested each year that get breasted out and left in the fields for the critters to take care of. 

I think we are making laws using century old ways of thinking. We outdoorsmen are a LOT smarter now, manage our resources better. 

But then again that is just my opinion


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## kaborkian (May 26, 2007)

rip125 said:


> give the guy a break people he did not intentionaly break the law. and second who the hell are you to tell him o well you broke the law live with it.if it were you you would be upset also.get off your high horse.


Never said I wouldn't be upset...I get upset with speeding tickets too.

Facts are still facts, he broke the law. It wasn't the LEO's fault, nor was there a problem with the LEO doing his job.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Baldona523 said:


> So, for all those worrying about all this nonsense, he will only get 14 points off of his license. It takes 18 to lose a license, and half your points are reduced for every year that he does not get any points.


 You only posted the state level repercussions. A migratory bird mount is a federal charge as posted with a link to the FWS website.

Seriously are every one of you who are downplaying the possible repercussions actually stopping to think before you post. As I stated I am not a legal professional, I do not know all of the possible outcomes. I do know people who have lost their rights to gun ownership over misdemeanors. As Hunters over half the people on these boards probably have 2k+ in their hunting gear and could afford that but hiring a professional to protect your rights "is more expensive than it is worth".

I am not giving the OP legal advice on how to deal with the situation, I am telling him he needs to seek it.


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## kebees4 (Oct 11, 2008)

3children said:


> So how does this stop poaching? Let me see, I shoot a deer at nite, out of season, take it to a taxidemist to have it mounted. After I get it back, I sell it on Craigs List. I think the law allows you to sell it in your state, maybe, just not to someone in that state. Do yourself a favor and find out. Most laws have loopholes and believe me, bad guys find them. In Alaska, you cannot sell body parts, Asians will pay $500.00 for a gall bladder:mg: from a bear. When I was offered this from a legal bear I had taken, I just gave it to him. How many of you would have taken the money? Don't answer that!!!


A taxidermist can not mount a deer for you without the proper tag numbers and etc. unless he is wanting to get busted and loose his business and get a big fine. The DNR comes and checks up on us taxidermist on a regular basis.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

skynight said:


> So how come the officers aren't guilty of a crime for buying the mounts from you?
> 
> I hate these "crimes" that would not exist if the LEO wasn't there committing them.





skynight said:


> I'm sure he would have sold it to someone else. How they catch him really isn't my concern. But catching the seller and the purchaser after the crime affords the opportunity to catch two criminals and prosecute an actual crime.


I guess you changed your mind?


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

that is such BS. I think any decent person that knew you had no clue would just give you a warning and walk out. what a dirt bag, low life. 


im sorry to hear about your position. and this dirtbag didnt help it at all. i think have a jury present would be the best way to go about it.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

Jarocal,

From what he said, he was not arrested and taken to jail therefore this was not a misdemeanor. He was simply written a ticket. Some are taking your side and blowing this up as a conspiracy. I said before that he needs to make sure there are no repercussions like loss of hunting privileges or gun ownership, and that is what I tried to show in my post of the regulations. In florida, you only lose rights to own guns if your a felon, pretty sure most states are the same. None the less, this is a bowhunting forum and that does not usually apply to bow and arrows anyway. 

I would agree with you on finding possibly seeking a lawyer. For the average law abiding American, the law does not seek out to hurt you. It is there to protect your rights, saying otherwise is complete ignorance.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

rip125 said:


> give the guy a break people he did not intentionaly break the law. and second who the hell are you to tell him o well you broke the law live with it.if it were you you would be upset also.get off your high horse.


you know cause most of the people on AT obey every law in the book. no ones every broke the law by accident. idc what people say i think that situation is messed up and they could have just told him its illegal. just some guys looking to fine everyone they see.


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## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

They should put those officers in the inner city and bust some guys that are committing the real crimes. Guys are selling crack and you get busted for selling a friggin duck...unreal.


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## buckchaser86 (Jun 10, 2009)

Don't listen to the other comments on here. These guys act as if they know every law in the book, and have never broken one of them. 

Youv'e made a mistake, a common one that could be made by almost anyone. Learn from it, and I hope you don't have any problems fighting it.

The poor guy was just selling some mounts, and some people on here treat him as if you were selling drugs out at the elementary school.....


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

cityhunter346 said:


> They should put those officers in the inner city and bust some guys that are committing the real crimes. Guys are selling crack and you get busted for selling a friggin duck...unreal.


Do you know anything about the DNR? It is called Department of Natural Resources, not the DEA or Drug Enforcement Agency. Some of you are amazing. Do you call a lawyer when your sick, or a carpenter to fix your sink? 
Not to mention, during gun season every person the DNR checks is armed, there is not another agency that can say the same, these guy's jobs are not easy. No I am not in law enforcement and have run into some bad GWs, but that does not mean i don't respect them. 

This is a slow time for fishing and hunting in most parts of the states, they were doing their job.


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## Bean Outdoors (Jul 24, 2009)

our money at work at state employees blowing it one dollar at a time


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

buckchaser86 said:


> Don't listen to the other comments on here. These guys act as if they know every law in the book, and have never broken one of them.
> 
> Youv'e made a mistake, a common one that could be made by almost anyone. Learn from it, and I hope you don't have any problems fighting it.
> 
> The poor guy was just selling some mounts, and some people on here treat him as if you were selling drugs out at the elementary school.....


its sad.


i never knew that was illegal ethier. never heard of it. they sells them like crazy at the flee market


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

Uncle Bucky said:


> Yes, request a jury, and be part of the selection of picking them.
> 
> I would ask potential jurors how they feel about government involvment in our lives and what boundries they believe our government should have.
> 
> ...


You've been watching too much Law and Order!

Infraction/misdemeanor?
He won't be part of the jury selection process.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Baldona523 said:


> Jarocal,
> 
> From what he said, he was not arrested and taken to jail therefore this was not a misdemeanor. He was simply written a ticket...
> 
> .. Some are taking your side and blowing this up as a conspiracy.


 
I am in no way claiming it is some sort of gov shakedown nor a conspiracy. As far as the deer head mount that is definitely a South Carolina issue. The two Mallards can be cited through the State but also as Federal too. For some reason I am not sure double jeopardy would apply to keep them both from being filed. Three mounts could be charged as three counts even though the sale occured at the same time. Being too lazy to chase down the states limitations in his state for ffl I cannot say for sure whether this would affect his ability to buy firearms. But I do know that even after his summary tickets are sent he can still be charged on the federal level for selling the mig. fowl which carries a sentence high enough to kick him back denied on FFL.

I realize this is a bowhunting site, I am just advocating that he does not listen to advice from here but seek professional advice to protect his rights. I know if I heard a bunch of "Man it's cheaper to pay the fine and move on" posts then paid the ticket and learned I have to give up my firearms I would be devastated.


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## AmishArcher (Feb 6, 2008)

that sucks, but like was said before ignorance to the law isn't an excuse.

Do they have bigger fish to fry? Probably. But is that the excuse you use when you get pulled over for speeding if you were 5 over the limit?

Hope you get back on your feet soon! Keep job hunting!


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

I read an article recently where a police chief in another state did his own european mount and gota ticket for it, since he didn't realize it was illegal in his state to do taxidermy(even for yourself) without a license to do so. The CO was gonna use discretion and not ticket him, but the officer insisted. Kudos to him, BUT COs should definately use more discretion! We ran into one in WYO a couple years ago that did.....one guy in our group failed to leave proof of sex on a fawn(which was legal to shoot regardless of sex), so easy mistake right???? CO gave a warning in that circumstance because it was CLEAR that it was an honest mistake, and there really wasn't any harm regardless. The sex did not matter, it was a legal animal either way.

We need more officer discretion instead of all the BS tickets given when a simple warning will do far more good, and keep public perception in the postive, which in the COs field is VERY IMPORTANT!


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

Makes you wonder if they're pay is commission based? :darkbeer:


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

twisted1600 said:


> Makes you wonder if they're pay is commission based? :darkbeer:


 *cough* quota <insert conspiracy theory> system *cough*
:behindsof


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Why don't you just call the prosecutor responsible for your case, have him or her review the reports, and ask if they would be willing to dismiss or not file the charges? Assuming you relayed the same info in your OP to the officers, tell the prosecutor the same thing. Assuming it is true, you may find you don't have to go to court, etc. You may also be surprised with the results...

That being said, I find it ironic the number of people who blame the COs for what they did...imagine that, governmental officials being blamed for doing what they are paid to do...usually, they are blamed for not doing what they are supposed to do...

Some on this sight express the opinion that trespassers are the worst of the worst relating to hunting...lock em up and throw away the key...when it's a mistake, too bad...

Poachers are yet another example...irregardless of the reason for the poaching...

Do all of you really want a system that allows LEOs to unilaterally decide who to arrest and what for without some check on the process? Instead of a reactionary opinion, perhaps a logical, thought out, one should be utilized more frequently prior to responding...


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

Sneaky Apasum said:


> I guess you changed your mind?


No. And I don't see your point.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

skynight said:


> No. And I don't see your point.


I didn't figure you would. Don't worry about it.


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## bigoleboy (Apr 19, 2009)

i am not a lawyer but have been to court a few times as witness for the prosecution in a few cases and I think the judge will ask, how do you plead and to get a jury trial you will have to plead innocent, which you are not and the jury will find you guilty with the evidence at hand so if I were you I would plead guilty with an explanation and tell the judge due to the loss of work, loss of your home etc. and you didn't know it was illegal to sell mounted wildlife; you were selling everything and didn't know it was illegal.

He may cut you a brake. Remember you could get a jury of animal lovers and people who don't like hunters and things could get worse rather than dealing one on one with a judge. Besides that, you just want to get this over and move on!!!

By all means dress for the occasion that is coat and tie. Too many people go to court in jeans etc and look like they just got out of bed and appearance does make a difference sometimes, especially if you have a clean record. You may even get PBJ that is Probation Before Judgement and that is the best to hope for. Just my two cents worth! Good luck!!:darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## scottparker (Mar 31, 2006)

crazy wolf said:


> First of all, do you have a clean record ? If so, take it to court plead your case. The whole Country is hurting right now , jobs are scares ect. Leave nothing out of your situation at home. You honestly didnt know , tell it to the jury and let them decide. People make honest mistakes everyday , just like you. I hope all goes well , and you find work soon. Good luck ! You still have a chance !
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy Wolf.


Go to court and see if it'll get thrown out.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Sneaky Apasum said:


> So.....how are they supposed to catch people doing something like this?
> 
> Do you really think this guy wouldn't have sold it to anyone else? Seriously?



Yes, you're right...and thank god they caught someone "doing something like this". Can you imagine the horror of horrors that would have been unleashed had this guy been able to sell the exotic and rare whitetail shoulder mount? Or a <gasp> duck!!!!

I know I'm speaking for all of us when I say I'm glad the government is here to watch out for me.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Baldona523 said:


> Shame on anyone who says law enforcement or the DNR was in the wrong here. They did their job. Who knows how many mounts the OP was trying to sell.


Shame on you for assuming the OP is lying.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

MOC said:


> Yes, you're right...and thank god they caught someone "doing something like this". Can you imagine the horror of horrors that would have been unleashed had this guy been able to sell the exotic and rare whitetail shoulder mount?
> 
> I know I'm speaking for all of us when I saw I'm glad the government is here to watch out for me.


I guarantee you it has more to do with the duck than the deer, and they have good reasons for not allowing the sales of migratory waterfowl.

And when I say "something like this", I'm speaking about illegal activities in general, not necessarily someone selling a couple mounts in the backyard. They are after people breaking the law. They just happened to catch him. And they are wrong for what they did?


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

crazy wolf said:


> First of all, do you have a clean record ? If so, take it to court plead your case. The whole Country is hurting right now , jobs are scares ect. Leave nothing out of your situation at home. You honestly didnt know , tell it to the jury and let them decide. People make honest mistakes everyday , just like you. I hope all goes well , and you find work soon. Good luck ! You still have a chance !
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy Wolf.


Great in theory...but the reason(s) for selling the mount(s) is likely inadmissable at the trial level and the judge or jury doesn't get to hear it...has no relationship to whether the crime was committed or not. A judge may be able to hear it at sentencing, and it may impact the sentence, but as to guilt or innocence, the reason(s) are irrelevant.

Now, possibly the cheapest, quickest and best way to proceed is to call the prosecutor and talk directly to them. At a minimum, the OP will then be able to consider whether to retain an attorney, or whether one is needed at all.


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

mrbreeze said:


> Bad advice.
> 
> If you aren't going to get a lawyer, plead "Stand Mute" to the charge.  It is treated as a not guilty, but it will let you get a conference with the prosecutor, and will likely cut you a deal.


State your case.....figure of speech.....


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## buckeyboy (Feb 6, 2007)

Ok how about this senerio
He posted them on craigslist. Should craigslist have had a warning for him that it is Ilegal Just like they state no firearms and such. 
dont know the answer and not looking for an arguement just looking for a way for this poor guy to get out of this redicuous mess.
For all the guys who say the the laws the law be careful spitting on the sidewalk is Illegal. so is certain types of sex in many states even with your wife... OHHH ge wizzz officer I diddent know I couldent Boink my wife #####@@^%^&%##@@# Sorry son ignorance of the law is no excuse.
*Pull your pants up your comming with us*.olice::set1_thinking:


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## thumperjack (May 22, 2009)

mamachay said:


> So how do they get away with it on ebay? seems like selling mounts across state lines would be a bigger offense?


 good question


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## pahuntnut (Dec 17, 2005)

Their government employees and hate having the spot light turned on them. Dont just post this here. call you local news stations and write you state rep, and congress man. Let everybody you can know about this. And if you cannot afford a layer? can you get one appointed to you? Let the news know how much this is costing the taxpayer.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

thumperjack said:


> good question


I don't think that deer parts are illegal to sell in most areas. Ducks are federal. Any that I have seen on Ebay have proper documentation proving that they are not wild birds.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Sneaky Apasum said:


> And they are wrong for what they did?


Absolutely. I feel safer on the streets now that these perps have been caught. LMAO.


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## csobx2 (Sep 16, 2007)

UV Killer said:


> Correct on Waterfowl, they are Federally regulated, and thus the laws against selling them mounted or not.


The government does not put them in front off you to take, It is a skill when harvesting animals correctly. Big brother wants to control all rights on harvesting animals, we PAY for the right to take the animals correctly, we should have the right to do what is best for our families including selling them. The government does not own the animals, they make enough money on them already.


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

Protected or regulated wild animals, live,
dead, or the meat therefrom, cannot be sold,
traded or bartered. (Exceptions: lawfully
taken furbearers, squirrel tails, deer hides,
antlers, hooves, and cured gamebird feathers
may be sold).

The law in IN......
Solohunter


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## Caligater (Jun 25, 2008)

That's a real bummer man. I agree that I would do what I could to be tried by a jury. Non-public officials may be your only chance left at reaching a decision based on common sense.


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## Dfol20 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sorry to hear about that man. I can understand where the law comes from though. People will end up killing things in order to sell them and that could create an environment hunters don't want to have around. It is just like someone saying I will give you x amount of money to shoot me a deer. But they could have the decency to warn you, I mean come on.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

I truely am sorry for you and your family and wish you nothing but the best in recovering from you economic situation. But please try to understand this. With the way the economy is right now, state employees of all kinds are on the chopping block and every person still employed, is trying their hardest to prove their worth. Had the officer that made the charge not done his job, he could be the next one looking for work. 

Again, best of luck.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

MOC said:


> Absolutely. I feel safer on the streets now that these perps have been caught. LMAO.


Your concern is better directed at those people who make the law as opposed to those who enforce it...

Complaining about governmental employees doing their jobs is a new one...


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

First, let me say that I'm ashamed of a whole lot of Archery Talk members today. Yes the law was broken, but there was no malice. Come on. Use some common sense. A warning would have been appropriate. These officers weren't using sound judgement. There is room for them to use discretion. It is clear to see that this man had no ill intentions. 

My advice; Do not go this alone! GET REPRESENTATION. If you think the officers are unjust, wait till you see what happens when you get into this beast and try representing yourself. Do not expect the judge, jury, or DA to exercise any more common sense. It's not going to happen.

It is possible that he may not even be able to be represented by a public defender if he makes more then the poverty level. In PA, for example, that is 18K/yr. So, if he was employed part of the year, or is on unemployment, he will be disqualified. I bet most of you didn't know that. This means he willl have to pay for representation. The law enforcement officers and DA know this, and will use this information. It happens. It may not happen all the time but it does happen. Been there. As was already mentioned, if you fight them in court, it will certainly piss them off, and they will certainly ask that you not get a reduced sentence. By the way, a simple two day trial, expect lawyer fees from 5-12K dollars. Yes dollars! wth. :mg:

For those who think that this was simply law enforcement doing their job, maybe, maybe not. I think this was law enforcement making sure they can justify having this many officers on board, which is why the lack of commen sense was exercised. At budget time, it is much easier to say "look, we made "x" amount of arrests and brought in "x" amount of money. We need this many officers to keep up." I've been there and I've seen it.

Last words of wisdom; The legal system is not just, nor is it concerned with justice. As an example, even alot of your own members see it black and white with little gray area. No one cares to take into account the circumstances around the alleged offense. The DA won't care, the judge won't care, the jury won't care(they're required to find you guilty if you broke the law) There is no common sense. GET REPRESENTATION. It will sink you and your family but you will at least be free from the government grasp to be with them in this hard time. 

Good luck.


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## mossihornslayer (Apr 1, 2005)

*Ttt*

A jury of your peers will not be your peers no matter how you would like to think they are. You are better off taking a bench trial in front of the county judge who is a elected official. Explain you would never sell anything so valuable to you such as your game mounts unless your family was starving such as the case. Also you did not advertise the mounts you were contacted by the officers being intraped to sell, the officers most likely knew your situation and knew you were desperate. Beg for mercy and talk the judge into working off the fines instead of money. Long story short a jury most likely will hang you, remember the State Attorney also approves the jury so it will be loaded against you. Another way is setup a trial and the morning of it a State Attorney will give you a plea of a lesser crime just to keep it from a trial. Good luck.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh and to put my money where my advice is, pm me your paypal address and I'll send you all I can.


Oh and don't think for two seconds that a local district judge is going to go against the district attorneys office. not going to happen. it's called professional courtesy and a working business relationship. For that matter. make sure you get a lawyer from out of the county that won't mind stepping on a few toes where you live.


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## JustinM (Aug 23, 2007)

take it to jury no matter what... a judge once said I see and hear crimminals all day every day.. i have no symthany for you.. makes sence exactly from the guys mouth he said always ask for a jury trial.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

MarksExtra said:


> First, let me say that I'm ashamed of a whole lot of Archery Talk members today. Yes the law was broken, but there was no malice. Come on. Use some common sense. A warning would have been appropriate. These officers weren't using sound judgement. There is room for them to use discretion. It is clear to see that this man had no ill intentions.


First, I am not challenging the truthfulness of the OP, but are you suggesting that every time a LEO has contact with a person who has broken the law, and the person has a good justification for breaking the law, and/or there was no "malice" (a legal term itself, generally only used to describe a degree of murder) that the LEO should just let them go?

This system would certsinly clear the docket...I have yet to talk to someone who broke the law that did not have a good excuse (at least in their own mind) for breaking the law.

So, othe rthan the OP, how exactly do you know the officers were or were not using "sound judgment"? Were you there?

So your ashamed of a whole lot of ATers because they have questions, maybe don't take the OP at face value, and generally understand that a system that encourages ad hoc decisions by LEOs of who to investigate and arrest is unworkable and fundamentally unsound...

For all you know, these officers superviser ordered them to do this...failure to do so could have resulted in discipline. No one who has posted on this thread, other than the OP, has professed to have any personal knowledge of what actually occurred, and to cast judgement on any of the parties actually involved is what is shameful.

Right...right...


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

Well I know a taxidermist got caught red handed selling ducks and geese , red handed

he got a couple thousand fine, that was it. 

So I think if you do get someone to represent you, or go in and just be honest , hopefully they will see your side and lower fines and not take any hunting privelages away.

Or you could plead insanity? Might work LOL


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

Rolo, spoken like a true member I'm ashamed of. zero common sense. you should be a LEO


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

MarksExtra said:


> Rolo, spoken like a true member I'm ashamed of. zero common sense. you should be a LEO


Spoken like someone who failed to fully analyze the issue(s) and then when called on it, instead of addressing them, choses to divert and cast a swath over those who retain a semblance of objectivity...


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

Depending on how much you paid to have it mounted (if you still have the receipt) and how much you sold it for a lawyer may be able to sucessfully argue to the judge you were selling it at a loss and not for profit attempting to only sell it for cost. There is a clause in the mig. waterfowl act that allows taxidermists to sell unclaimed mounts at cost as long as they can show they are not making a profit. 

But just to keep beating the dead horse I will put it in this post also. 

*Get professional help.*


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

I can see the issues just fine. thanks, but after years of dealing with this sort of thing and after reading five pages of posts, along with reading your post, I'd rather just let it slide. Objectivity is not what I'd call it. Some of the AT'ers wrote just ignorant things, not questions, or questioning the OP.

I could quote most of your post and come up with one response after another that will show how short sighted your response was, but it's really not even worth it. Years. Years I've been dealing with issues and people just like this and anything I say won't change a dang thing. It's not worth my time to provoke you. Fun yes, but still not worth it. It would just detract from this poor guys dilema. Uh um...I mean this stinkin' law breaking criminals' troubles.

Seriously, just read your own post. ad hoc? come on. Think about it. :icon_salut:


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## kaborkian (May 26, 2007)

MarksExtra said:


> Rolo, spoken like a true member I'm ashamed of. zero common sense. you should be a LEO


And what exactly is wrong with being a LEO?

I'm not one. I usually don't like seeing them around, because it means they may find something I've done wrong. Since I didn't intend malice, I should assume that what I did was OK, right?

The whole point I was trying to make earlier was this: it's not the LEO's job to define or interpret the law, it's his job to ENFORCE it! Imagine what would happen if every LEO with an inferiority complex and a huge chip on his shoulder got the option to enforce the laws that suited him the best...this is NOT a world I would want to live in. LEO's should enforce existing laws to the letter, it's their job. If the law says don't exceed 70 mph, them stop everyone going 71 (or 76 if that's your equipment accuracy expectation)...don't stop for 71 mph one day and let 80 mph slide the next day because the guy looked late for work. There should be ZERO subjective interpretation of laws by LEO's.

Now, don't crucify me for what I believe to be right. I also believe that the law against selling your personal mounts is absurd, and a bit redundant as well. If you have the mount in your possetion, the assumption should be that you have it legally. Since it's yours and the assumption is you got it legally, you should be able to sell it just like any other item you own. So the law is ridiculous, petition to have it changed. Until that happens, it's STILL THE LAW, and it's the LEO's job to ENFORCE IT, not be the judge.


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## Sneaky Apasum (Jul 11, 2006)

MarksExtra said:


> Rolo, spoken like a true member I'm ashamed of. zero common sense. you should be a LEO


Spoken like someone with a prejudice.

So, you weren't there, but you know exactly what happened and who is right and wrong. Interesting.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

The fine we're talking about here as stated by the OP is $500.00. To this guy in his situation, $500.00 is a backbreaker. But unless he can get free legal representation, hiring a lawyer will make no financial sense. The bill for only two or three hours of the attorney's time will eclipse the $500.00 fine. 

Unfortunately, the chances of winning this for the OP are slim and none. He can only hope that he puts himself in front of a judge who is having a good day and is feeling generous. Even then, who knows. 

I have a buddy here in PA who got popped for taking a doe in the wrong county. He had a Schyukil County tag and was in Berks County by a couple hundred yards. This was before the current WMU system when doe tags were county specific. The problem was that there were no county line boundary markers in the woods at Weiser State Forest. A game warden saw my buddy dragging the doe out and asked him where he shot it. My buddy told him where and the warden advised him he was in the wrong county for his tag by a couple hundred yards. The warden took the deer, fined him $500.00, and he lost his license for the following year. He tried fighting it. He took a day off from work, drove the two hours to Harrisburg, paid the court cost, and stated his case. He said the judge agreed with his assertion that it was an honest mistake......BUT.......he couldn't do anything to overrule it because the warden already issued the citation. The main thing my buddy wanted was to at the very least still retain hunting privileges for the following year but that was shot down. 

So over an honest mistake, he lost a deer (which I can understand as this is how the PAGC handles some mistake kills), got a $500.00 fine, and lost his license. The law may not be blind but it isn't always smart or logical.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

MarksExtra said:


> Rolo, spoken like a true member I'm ashamed of. zero common sense. you should be a LEO


Sounds to me like someone has a bone to pick with law enforement. As said earlier, you have "been there" when trying to qualify for court appointed representation. One would only need this if they were caught on the wront side of the law. How about you stop bashing people for doing their jobs. And before you decide to come back with some smart response, yes I am a LEO. Do some people deserve breaks? Sure, but thats for a judge to decide, not me or anyone else.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

oh boy here we go.... I didn't mean to offend any LO. So lets get that straight first. Law enforcement officials are part of our system and most do a great job. We need law enforcement. 

Second. I totally disagree with you. No offense to you. I can totally see where you are coming from. but.

If LO's job is to enforce. and.....
it's DA's job to prosecute.. and.....
its the judges job to sentence......

Whose job is it to make sure common sense was applied? don't answer that. I'll answer that for you. NO ONE'S. And that kids is the problem with the justice system today. There's no justice. If you say there is you simply haven't been involved with it. Alot of people who are involved(not everyone to be politically correct) says 'it's not my job" and uses that as an excuse flush away their moral responsibility.(flame away) 

Oh and I don't want to hear how "the law is the law". Does anyone hear know who made the laws? don't answer that either. because the answer is no one knows. there are so many from so many politicians over so many years that no one knows. Do you have any idea how many are not even enforceable, and are totally a joke? TONS! you don't see LO dong anything about many of them do you? why? because there is certain amount of discretion to be applied. maybe now my point is taken. 

now, please, please, please can we try to stick to this poor guys problem. I don't want to stray from this thread topic any further.


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## IndianaArcher7 (Sep 10, 2009)

lefty o said:


> ignorance of the law, doesnt make it right.


then why can people plead insanity in a murder case?...If one does not know the law or how to abide by them, i'd say of course its not "right" but you can say it did have unintended consequences.


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## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

Baldona523 said:


> Do you know anything about the DNR? It is called Department of Natural Resources, not the DEA or Drug Enforcement Agency. Some of you are amazing. Do you call a lawyer when your sick, or a carpenter to fix your sink?
> Not to mention, during gun season every person the DNR checks is armed, there is not another agency that can say the same, these guy's jobs are not easy. No I am not in law enforcement and have run into some bad GWs, but that does not mean i don't respect them.
> 
> This is a slow time for fishing and hunting in most parts of the states, they were doing their job.


I know plenty about the DNR. Taxpayer dollars would be better spent trying to get inner cities under control rather than paying someone to issue a ticket over a stuffed duck....don't you think? How many guys selling mounts are convicted of violent crimes every year? We have WAY bigger problems in this country than Joe Blow selling a shoulder mount.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

*Well said....*



Cajun83 said:


> The real question is this... how much time and energy are you willing to burn to prove your point?
> 
> Lawyers are expensive.


consider this........

In 2007 we were having some problems with a particular group of guys - not only did we catch the culprits stealing a cam, they trashed a ladder stand and sprayed round-up on our plot - all caught on video with a day only DXG complete with audio. We thought case open and shut - NOT - to make a loooonnnnngggg story short - a lawyer ($$$), 6 court appearances (6-days missed work) and 16-months later we finally closed the case. Each of the three men (ages, 18, 24, 52 - father and his two sons) were fined $2870 each to cover lawyer fees, court costs, damages, and restitution and we had to agree NOT to post the video on any public forum. Don't get me wrong it was worth every minute, but it was by far "open and shut"!

Details – if you want them…
They had moved into the neighborhood and were asking for permission to hunt what they thought was "their backyard". Little did they know that I have the four adjacent properties (roughly 100 acres) under a management contract? When they approached the various property owners for permission each one provided my contact information (thankfully). I met "the father" for Sunday breakfast at the local diner and we talked a little about hunting etc... . I explained how I had worked very hard over the last 16-years to secure the trust of all of the property owners and I was very careful, to extend any invites. Keep in mind, at this point I had not yet said no - he immediately began to spout off that if I thought that I would stop him from hunting in his own backyard I had another thing coming and that he purposefully bought this house because of the property etc.... Needless to say, my mind was made up and I politely informed him hat I would not grant permission and that I would prosecute any trespassers - he followed by calling me a parasite who can't afford my own property so I rob it from others. I guess he missed the whole part about the hard work and relationship building efforts that I had employed over the last 16 years in order to gain their trust and support. I do not pay a dime to any of these property owners, I perform general maintenance when they need it, cut firewood, but moreover, I am a friend to them who patrols and protects their property, shares the harvest, supports their needs when I am asked, but moreover they can trust me. 
Immediately after breakfast I visited all of the property owners to share exactly what had happened, I paid to have the adjacent property surveyed (never knew how expensive that would be:mg: ). When the survey was complete I posted the boundary about every 15 feet (first time posted signs were needed in 16 years). Along with the signs went a few strategically placed IR p32's. Within the first 10-days we had pictures of all three crossing the boundary with pole pruners, on at least 5 occasions. (I guess I should share that they had moved in Labor Day weekend and our season started in roughly a month.) Then a camera went missingI called "the father" and asked to meet as I had reconsidered his position. We met at the same diner, this time both boys came with him. He began by apologizing for his outburst and began quickly giving his "decency resume". I let him go one for a bit, he even offered to buy 10 stands to distribute and hang throughout the property, "especially in that back chestnut grove" (hmmmm). I asked how he knew about the grove and once again his true colors came out - "what- now I can't even walk around my own backyard". I quickly reminded him that the adjacent property was NOT his backyard and that if he made it to the grove he clearly ignored the newly posted property border. I also supplied the photographs and issued the warning that the next time would be followed with a police report. 
Later that day I hung a few dummy cams with video units strategically perched roughly 8-10 feet in the canopy and the video mentioned above was captured about a week and a half later. 

Hard to believe - I would have probably considered granting these guys permission, after all they live right there and I drive an hour to get there, but there is NO WAY, after witnessing how this gentleman behaved, I could risk jeopardizing the long-term relationships that I had developed with the property owners.

Does that make me a parasite???

I should add something VERY important - there has been a lot of talk about sharing pics and of trespassers (I've been guilty of it myself). I’ve seen mention of posting pics in the local sporting goods shops, etc.... - the lawyer we had at the time made it very clear that doing so is a VERY bad idea. As we learned first hand, the prosecuting process is far from easy as most of the fees we had to pay up front, not to mention lost wages from work, etc.... He indicated that most would not persist the way that did. In such cases, if a case was never filed and "closed" and the plaintiff (me) posted pics/vids in any public forum, charges could be filed against you for liable and/or slander. Now I am not lawyer, but after going through this process I trust the guy we had, he was sharp and really 'took it to them" in my mind. The fines were accompanied with both misdemeanor and felony charges of some specific nature.

Keep that in mind - hate to see someone get banged around twice.

Joe


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

50bowhunter said:


> Sounds to me like someone has a bone to pick with law enforement. As said earlier, you have "been there" when trying to qualify for court appointed representation. One would only need this if they were caught on the wront side of the law. How about you stop bashing people for doing their jobs. And before you decide to come back with some smart response, yes I am a LEO. Do some people deserve breaks? Sure, but thats for a judge to decide, not me or anyone else.


I didn't bash anyone, and I have no "bone to pick" as you so eloquently put it. and second...am I not supposed to come up with some smart response because your LO? I hope that was not what you meant. 

Third...I love your reasoning skills... I must be a convict or have tried to qualify for court appointed representation, rather than i could have known someone, was involved with a case or any of a myriad of other reasons. perfect. and my personal favorite..."that's for a judge to decide" So the next time you dont stop someone going one mile over the speed limit, or etc etc..... what then? The mentality that there is no gray or room for personal discretion is absolutely ridiculous. (flame away some more)


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## TheCamoGhost (Nov 16, 2005)

I'm a buddy of VK's. He's a good dude and this sucks, because right now the last thing he needs is a fine to pay. I have a question to ponder, for all the ignorance is no excuse hardliners- suppose your kids wanted to sell lemonade and cookies at the end of your driveway for a quarter. They made a sign and made lemonade and cookies, and business was good. Along comes a local DHEC inspector on his way home, when what does he see? Unlicensed and unlawful dirlstribution of food/beverages. No sanitation inspection posted. Food prepared in a non commercial kitchen, and to boot- child labor infractions!! Should he launch a sting and bust the little delinquents? Or is the official allowed a measure of jurisprudence to interpret whether criminal intent is present or not? The bottom line is a simple phone call and warning, would have gone a long way to preventing the law from being broken, which is, ultimately far better than wasting tax payer dollars to punish someone- after they have been enticed into breaking it. Just my $.02 :wink: Ghost


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

cityhunter346 said:


> I know plenty about the DNR. Taxpayer dollars would be better spent trying to get inner cities under control rather than paying someone to issue a ticket over a stuffed duck....don't you think? How many guys selling mounts are convicted of violent crimes every year? We have WAY bigger problems in this country than Joe Blow selling a shoulder mount.


Careful. you're trying to use common sense with some that know not what it means. It's only black and white to some.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

TheCamoGhost said:


> I'm a buddy of VK's. He's a good dude and this sucks, because right now the last thing he needs is a fine to pay. I have a question to ponder, for all the ignorance is no excuse hardliners- suppose your kids wanted to sell lemonade and cookies at the end of your driveway for a quarter. They made a sign and made lemonade and cookies, and business was good. Along comes a local DHEC inspector on his way home, when what does he see? Unlicensed and unlawful dirlstribution of food/beverages. No sanitation inspection posted. Food prepared in a non commercial kitchen, and to boot- child labor infractions!! Should he launch a sting and bust the little delinquents? Or is the official allowed a measure of jurisprudence to interpret whether or not criminal intent is present or not? The bottom line is a simple phone call and warning, would have gone a long way to preventing the law being broken, which is, ultimately far better than wasting tax payer dollars to punish someone- after they have been enticed into breaking it. Just my $.02 :wink: Ghost


Beautifully spoken.


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## Elgavilan (Feb 7, 2010)

50 CFR 20.91

SUBPART J -- FEATHERS OR SKINS
§ 20.91 Commercial use of feathers.
Any person may possess, purchase, sell, barter, or transport for the making of fishing flies, bed
pillows, and mattresses, and for similar commercial uses the feathers of migratory waterfowl
(ducks, geese, brant, and swans) killed by hunting pursuant to this part, or seized and condemned
by Federal or State game authorities, except that:
(a) No person shall purchase, sell, barter, or offer to purchase, sell, or barter for millinery or
ornamental use the feathers of migratory game birds taken under authority of this part; and
(b) No person shall purchase, sell, barter, or offer to purchase, sell, or barter mounted specimens
of migratory game birds taken under authority of this part.


If it is a federal offense is a class B misdomeanor with a maxmum fine of $5000 and 6 months in jail. Class B misdomeanors do not get a jury trial for federal offenses, but you get to appear before a federal magistrate. The bond is set at $500, go to court plead your case to the judge and the max fine will be $500 plus maybe $25 for court costs, most likely the fine will be 1/2 that. You will not lose your guns. If it is a state offense, then all bets are off as I have no idea what that state's penalties are.

Mike


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

and when he gets $2500 fine and 3 months with no representation? what then? This does suck and he did break the law. just get professional help. they'll guide you better than us archers.


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## bigoleboy (Apr 19, 2009)

*Trial By Jury???*



mossihornslayer said:


> A jury of your peers will not be your peers no matter how you would like to think they are. You are better off taking a bench trial in front of the county judge who is a elected official. Explain you would never sell anything so valuable to you such as your game mounts unless your family was starving such as the case. Also you did not advertise the mounts you were contacted by the officers being intraped to sell, the officers most likely knew your situation and knew you were desperate. Beg for mercy and talk the judge into working off the fines instead of money. Long story short a jury most likely will hang you, remember the State Attorney also approves the jury so it will be loaded against you. Another way is setup a trial and the morning of it a State Attorney will give you a plea of a lesser crime just to keep it from a trial. Good luck.


He is right. You could get a jury of Animal lovers or worse yet Hunter haters. Negotiate a lesser charge and be done with it. Too much evidence against you!
Good luck!!!


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

nicko said:


> The fine we're talking about here as stated by the OP is $500.00. To this guy in his situation, $500.00 is a backbreaker. But unless he can get free legal representation, hiring a lawyer will make no financial sense. The bill for only two or three hours of the attorney's time will eclipse the $500.00 fine.


 You may be missing the bigger picture, that citation, from the state is the only one filed at this time. If he pleads to it pays the $500 fine he is admitting guilt to a federal offense that is a felony and carries very stiff fines. The federal gov at that point can then pick up the charges with him having adjudicated to the crime in state court by paying the fine and the max sentence federally one count of the waterfowl is stiff enough to put him on the never own a gun again list buy the federal gov. I am not saying that will happen I am saying that it is a possibility and the money spent on a lawyer now even it he has to put it on a payment plan may save him rights in the future. the " A lawyer costs more than the fine" reasoning has lost a lot of people rights they could Have kept with a decent lawyer.

Just as another poster further up demonstrated in his post about his legal problems if he had not pursued legal counsel, had posted the pics and video for public to see, it does not matter to the court that the persons did do that. They would have been charged and charges dropped which in the eyes of the law means they didn't do it. At that point the perpetrators could have civilly sued the poster for liable and won.

Lawyers are not considered friends of the little guy I understand that but for a lot of people on here to give the guy legal advice without being fully aware of the entire situation, applicable laws, and court procedure is a very dangerous thing. *The best advice to give him is to seek legal advice from a person who has the professional standing to give it to him.*


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

TheCamoGhost said:


> I'm a buddy of VK's. He's a good dude and this sucks, because right now the last thing he needs is a fine to pay. I have a question to ponder, for all the ignorance is no excuse hardliners- suppose your kids wanted to sell lemonade and cookies at the end of your driveway for a quarter. They made a sign and made lemonade and cookies, and business was good. Along comes a local DHEC inspector on his way home, when what does he see? Unlicensed and unlawful dirlstribution of food/beverages. No sanitation inspection posted. Food prepared in a non commercial kitchen, and to boot- child labor infractions!! Should he launch a sting and bust the little delinquents? Or is the official allowed a measure of jurisprudence to interpret whether criminal intent is present or not? The bottom line is a simple phone call and warning, would have gone a long way to preventing the law from being broken, which is, ultimately far better than wasting tax payer dollars to punish someone- after they have been enticed into breaking it. Just my $.02 :wink: Ghost


 Check Legal websites, there are cases of children's lemonade stands being shut down and fined for not being permitted. In those cases the judge usually bashes the prosecuter for a little while and then levies the minimum sentence. Local news stations usually cover the event. a group of outraged parents go yell at city council and no one pushes to change the codes to allow for these exceptions. 

If the inspector did not shut it down, a group of people got e coli because the kid used the same spoon in his sandbox as to stir the pitcher of lemonade you would be paying a lot more civil suits to the municipality for the inspector not having shut the kid down.


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## nycredneck (Nov 9, 2007)

Sorry to hear this, it really sucks. I think we all have similar stories of sorts where not knowing when you are doing something wrong or getting the blame when it's not entirely your fault. The punishment does not always fit the crime.


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## TheCamoGhost (Nov 16, 2005)

Jarocal said:


> Check Legal websites, there are cases of children's lemonade stands being shut down and fined for not being permitted. In those cases the judge usually bashes the prosecuter for a little while and then levies the minimum sentence. Local news stations usually cover the event. a group of outraged parents go yell at city council and no one pushes to change the codes to allow for these exceptions.
> 
> If the inspector did not shut it down, a group of people got e coli because the kid used the same spoon in his sandbox as to stir the pitcher of lemonade you would be paying a lot more civil suits to the municipality for the inspector not having shut the kid down.


 You will notice I never said anything about not shutting the stand down, I mentioned the sting and subsequent fines and trials. A warning would have been more than fair. Especially in this case when the LE's went out of their way to solicit the sale of the mounts. As I stated originally a warning would have prevented crime, which IMO is better than luring someone into a crime and then punishing them for it, especially when after meeting VK a logical person Gould have been able to determine this was not a poaching/taxidermy ring. Nice try at twisting from original intent. Ghost


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

MarksExtra said:


> It's not worth my time to provoke you. Fun yes, but still not worth it. It would just detract from this poor guys dilema. Uh um...I mean this stinkin' law breaking criminals' troubles.
> 
> Seriously, just read your own post. ad hoc? come on. Think about it. :icon_salut:



You haven't come anywhere near provoking me...but glad you have kept yourself amused.

Now if you go back and read all of my posts...you may find some common sense...because common sense dictates that the OP call the prosecutor to see what can possibly be done before it comes to anything actually being filed...before it comes to court...before it comes to attorneys fees, and before it comes to explaining to a judge or jury why the law was broken...perhaps common sense can eliminate all of this...

As far as who's job it is to apply common sense...well technically, that is the legislature's responsibility...rarely works that way in practice though...

Now, if you want to have a discussion, quote me at will, ask me questions...unlike you, I will respond...

So you can continue to be amused...I have not criticized anyong for their actions in this post...not the OP and not the LEOs, simply because enough objective information is not available.

...you have...good for you and please continue on with your amusement and world of common sense approaches to everything...

Wait a minute...doesn't the imposition and use of common sense require actual knowledge of what occurred in order to be implemented with the best result...doesn't it require a basis and foundation to be used...how bout an understanding of the facts and circumstances from all sides of an issue...seems to me that acting or judging without as much informtion as possible is acting contrary to common sense in circumstances similar to thread...

Carry on.


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## HOKIEHUNTER07 (Oct 4, 2005)

Best thing for you is to go to the press and try to find a sympathetic writer. Make a big story out of it, and they'll back down.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

I didn't say you couldn't say anything. However the last person that tired to debate you, you responded, "spoken like a true member I'm ashamed of. zero common sense. you should be a LEO" So let talk about your reasoning skills and how you think someone should be LEO because they don't have any common sense.


MarksExtra said:


> I didn't bash anyone, and I have no "bone to pick" as you so eloquently put it. and second...am I not supposed to come up with some smart response because your LO? I hope that was not what you meant.
> 
> Third...I love your reasoning skills... I must be a convict or have tried to qualify for court appointed representation, rather than i could have known someone, was involved with a case or any of a myriad of other reasons. perfect. and my personal favorite..."that's for a judge to decide" So the next time you dont stop someone going one mile over the speed limit, or etc etc..... what then? The mentality that there is no gray or room for personal discretion is absolutely ridiculous. (flame away some more)


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

TheCamoGhost said:


> You will notice I never said anything about not shutting the stand down, I mentioned the sting and subsequent fines and trials. A warning would have been more than fair. Especially in this case when the LE's went out of their way to solicited the sale of the mounts. As I stated originally a warning would have prevented crime, which IMO is better than luring someone into a crime and then punishing them for it, especially when after meeting VK a logical person Gould have been able to determine this was not a poaching/taxidermy ring. Nice try at twisting from original intent. Ghost


 Wasn't trying to twist your intent, just telling you why common sense breaks are no longer given that often. You're the LEO, you cut VK slack with a verbal warning. Little while later he gets nabbed doing the same thing and iot comes to surface that last time he was let off with a warning. You as the LEO who was nice are now facing disciplinary action and possibly dismissal because you cut theguy some slack. Easier to do your job, cover your own ass you you can feed your family, and let the prosecuter/judge decide if the guy deserves a break like you feel he does. As a Leo you can go on the stand and say how much the guy cooperated, told you he was unaware of the rule, blah blah and the judge will go light. But since you did your job there is not a way it comes back to bite you in the end.


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## Obsession11 (Jan 8, 2010)

what a load of s**t


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## undercover (Jul 2, 2006)

Sorry for your misfortune.


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## superslamsam (Nov 24, 2004)

I wonder what all of these "the law is the law" and you have to follow it people would have done in Nazi Germany? I mean the law rules right? Better turn in all the Jewish people you know cause its the law?


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## VanillaKilla (Dec 22, 2005)

Just to clarify somethings.

1. I was selling all my mounts, because I am losing my home and needed the money to find a roof to put over our heads. By the way 2 of the mounts are in the state record book and my "prized possessions" so it is not a case of wanting to sell them but "being a man" as someone posted and selling them to provide for my family.

2. 2 speeding tickets in my life and NOTHING else.

3. I am guilty! But as for the DNR it was complete negligence and they knew it and could have let me off with a warning and informing a citizen prior to me committing this "horrid" crime would have saved you and me some tax $. But we all know wether we won't to or not it all comes down to $$$$$.

4. I know the LEO were doing there job but they could have done a citizen justice with information rather than a fine.

5. Crime, Punishment and the Ridiculous

# Places where oral sex is illegal: Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Georgia, North and South Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Virginia and Washington D.C.

# An erection that shows through a man's clothing is illegal in: Arizona, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington D.C. and Wisconsin.

# In Georgia those charged and convicted for either oral or anal sex can be sentenced to no less than one year and no more than 20 years imprisonment. . No really look it up. Time for some sting operations at every home in these states!!! $


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## TheCamoGhost (Nov 16, 2005)

Jarocal said:


> Wasn't trying to twist your intent, just telling you why common sense breaks are no longer given that often. You're the LEO, you cut VK slack with a verbal warning. Little while later he gets nabbed doing the same thing and iot comes to surface that last time he was let off with a warning. You as the LEO who was nice are now facing disciplinary action and possibly dismissal because you cut theguy some slack. Easier to do your job, cover your own ass you you can feed your family, and let the prosecuter/judge decide if the guy deserves a break like you feel he does. As a Leo you can go on the stand and say how much the guy cooperated, told you he was unaware of the rule, blah blah and the judge will go light. But since you did your job there is not a way it comes back to bite you in the end.


Again, after meeting him in his home which is basically emptied because he is selling everything in an attempt to provide for his family, a warning could have been issued. Even a written warning which would go on file. I know that this is the case, because one of the other parties involved ( a 62 yr old woman) was issued a written warning. I have rode along with buddies who are LE and seen them use common sense in when to issue a warning and when to write a fine. I just wish the officer in this instance would have done the same. Ghost


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Jarocal said:


> You may be missing the bigger picture, that citation, from the state is the only one filed at this time. If he pleads to it pays the $500 fine he is admitting guilt to a federal offense that is a felony and carries very stiff fines. The federal gov at that point can then pick up the charges with him having adjudicated to the crime in state court by paying the fine and the max sentence federally one count of the waterfowl is stiff enough to put him on the never own a gun again list buy the federal gov. I am not saying that will happen I am saying that it is a possibility and the money spent on a lawyer now even it he has to put it on a payment plan may save him rights in the future. the " A lawyer costs more than the fine" reasoning has lost a lot of people rights they could Have kept with a decent lawyer.
> 
> Just as another poster further up demonstrated in his post about his legal problems if he had not pursued legal counsel, had posted the pics and video for public to see, it does not matter to the court that the persons did do that. They would have been charged and charges dropped which in the eyes of the law means they didn't do it. At that point the perpetrators could have civilly sued the poster for liable and won.
> 
> Lawyers are not considered friends of the little guy I understand that but for a lot of people on here to give the guy legal advice without being fully aware of the entire situation, applicable laws, and court procedure is a very dangerous thing. *The best advice to give him is to seek legal advice from a person who has the professional standing to give it to him.*


I'm going under the assumption that the $500.00 is the end of it as the OP mentioned no other penalities. If there is potential for more charges or fines, then yes, legal representation may make good sense. 

What a screwed up world it is when somebody who is just trying to scrape to take care of his family gets this dropped on him.


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## wyetterp (Feb 28, 2008)

crazy wolf said:


> First of all, do you have a clean record ? If so, take it to court plead your case. The whole Country is hurting right now , jobs are scares ect. Leave nothing out of your situation at home. You honestly didnt know , tell it to the jury and let them decide. People make honest mistakes everyday , just like you. I hope all goes well , and you find work soon. Good luck ! You still have a chance !
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy Wolf.


I agree. Lawyers cost way to much vs. a fine which may be reduced or even dismissed.


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## Cajun83 (Sep 30, 2009)

superslamsam said:


> I wonder what all of these "the law is the law" and you have to follow it people would have done in Nazi Germany? I mean the law rules right? Better turn in all the Jewish people you know cause its the law?


Sting operations resulting in fines is not even remotely in the realm of extermination camps. 

Cop writing ticket... 










Extermination camp.











But yeah... I see your point...


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

TheCamoGhost said:


> I'm a buddy of VK's. He's a good dude and this sucks, because right now the last thing he needs is a fine to pay. I have a question to ponder, for all the ignorance is no excuse hardliners- suppose your kids wanted to sell lemonade and cookies at the end of your driveway for a quarter. They made a sign and made lemonade and cookies, and business was good. Along comes a local DHEC inspector on his way home, when what does he see? Unlicensed and unlawful dirlstribution of food/beverages. No sanitation inspection posted. Food prepared in a non commercial kitchen, and to boot- child labor infractions!! Should he launch a sting and bust the little delinquents? Or is the official allowed a measure of jurisprudence to interpret whether criminal intent is present or not? The bottom line is a simple phone call and warning, would have gone a long way to preventing the law from being broken, which is, ultimately far better than wasting tax payer dollars to punish someone- after they have been enticed into breaking it. Just my $.02 :wink: Ghost


Well, the law is the law. So-when there is a Federal Law against it, the lemonade stand will close at the end of the driveway. Guess my little boy will be doing some hard time.


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## lpdoghunter (Mar 28, 2006)

I new about the ducks.

I hope the best for you and you family. I was once a construction man myself. Its hard out there but keep your head up for your wife and kids. Sold a lot of stuff. In hope of getting it back when things get better. Have to sell you Mount is hard.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

*Vanilla*

- I have not once implied you are in fact a bad person or that you were doing anything you thought was illegal. To be honest I knew selling migratory bird mounts to be illegal but if it was going to keep me from losing my house I would probably still try it.

- Seriously talk to a lawyer, many will consult with you about it intially for free and then give you a ballpark price. I know were selling the mounts because you need the cash but the risk of losing rights you cannot later get back warrants at least going for a consultation. Most lawyers will work with you about the payment. The prosecution is not required to tell you up front about consequential impositions that may or may not be placed. Only the direct punishment under the statute your being charged with need be told to you. With your circumstances, a really good lawyer may be able get the charges dropped on the condition you do community service work for the dnr in your area.

-My defense of LEO actions was not out of a "you did something wrong" attitude, just an explanation as to why common sense does not prevail.

- Fortunately I live in a state that does not affected by your later listed ban or some women i know could go to jail

*camoghost*

- The state judge, even if swayed with sympathy can only knock things down to the miminum and if the fed guy decides to pursue it further the fed Judge can be completely sympathetic and still have to give the mandatory minimum also.


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

superslamsam said:


> I wonder what all of these "the law is the law" and you have to follow it people would have done in Nazi Germany? I mean the law rules right? Better turn in all the Jewish people you know cause its the law?


Could you come up with anything with less common sense or less applicable to the real situation at hand? No, you can't.


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## dc calls (Feb 5, 2010)

Sounds like a bad deal. I would have hoped that after finding that you and your buddy were just common hunters in need of some $, and not some poaching for profit ring, that they possibly could have just written you a warning and informed you that this act is illegal. 
Sounds like a pretty unsucessful sting operation. Instead of protecting wildlife, or busting poachers, they have only used their time and resources to bust a couple hunters trying to sell a whole 4 mounts to make a little cash, while in violation of a law that i not common knowledge for most hunters. I hope they don't view this operation as a huge success for wildlife conservation.
Hope everthing turns out for you in the end.


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

Rolo said:


> may find some common sense...because common sense dictates that the OP call the prosecutor to see what can possibly be done before it comes to anything actually being filed...before it comes to court...before it comes to attorneys fees, and before it comes to explaining to a judge or jury why the law was broken...perhaps common sense can eliminate all of this...


This is exactly what I would do if it happened to me. No conspiracy theories, no "jury of my peers" drama, no acting like it's a get a lawyer or else situation, and no self determination of who the LEO's should or shouldn't do their jobs.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> This is exactly what I would do if it happened to me. No conspiracy theories, no "jury of my peers" drama, no acting like it's a get a lawyer or else situation, and no self determination of who the LEO's should or shouldn't do their jobs.


- the problem with that is the first thing the ada will probably do is advise him to get a lawyer before talking to him. If he waives the lawyer anything he tells the prosecuter in explaining the situation the prosecuter can use as evidence.

Personally the whole situation as stated on here is a waste of resources both tax money and what little vanilla does have. There are many better things the LEO's could be doing in educating the public rather than chasing down a couple hunters hard up for cash.


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## TheCamoGhost (Nov 16, 2005)

Jarocal said:


> Wasn't trying to twist your intent, just telling you why common sense breaks are no longer given that often. You're the LEO, you cut VK slack with a verbal warning. Little while later he gets nabbed doing the same thing and iot comes to surface that last time he was let off with a warning. You as the LEO who was nice are now facing disciplinary action and possibly dismissal because you cut theguy some slack. Easier to do your job, cover your own ass you you can feed your family, and let the prosecuter/judge decide if the guy deserves a break like you feel he does. As a Leo you can go on the stand and say how much the guy cooperated, told you he was unaware of the rule, blah blah and the judge will go light. But since you did your job there is not a way it comes back to bite you in the end.





Jarocal said:


> - the problem with that is the first thing the ada will probably do is advise him to get a lawyer before talking to him. If he waives the lawyer anything he tells the prosecuter in explaining the situation the prosecuter can use as evidence.
> 
> Personally the whole situation as stated on here is a waste of resources both tax money and what little vanilla does have. There are many better things the LEO's could be doing in educating the public rather than chasing down a couple hunters hard up for cash.


Agreed!! My whole point in this is the absolute waste of time and money that neither the govt. nor VK have... Ghost


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## buckmark23 (Jul 1, 2006)

VanillaKilla said:


> Well where do I start. I was in construction and have been unemployed for over a year. Things have been getting harder and harder. We are scheduled to lose our home in March. This being said I need to get some money together to find a place for me, my wife, and 3 kids. So I put an add on craigslist to start selling furniture, mower, 4 wheeler. I also listed my taxidermy. I have a friend who listed a mounted mallard on craigslist. So he gets a call on it and a guy comes to his house last friday to look at it. Asking him if he has anymore he says no but I have a friend who has some, and he gives him my number. The guy calls me and I setup a meeting for yesterday morning. The guy then calls my friend back and sets up the same time. Long story short undercover wildlife officers buy 1 mallard mount from him and one whitetail shoulder mount and a pair of mounted mallards from me. During the 30 minutes I spent with this officer telling him my situation he never mentioned that what I was about to do was illegal. Being completely clueless that it was illegal to sell a deer or duck mount they lead me into their "sting". So they fine me $500, set a court date, and confiscate my mounts. I am beside myself that 6 no really six state paid employees have time to do this!!!!. My friend received the same and his 65 yr old mother a warning because she accepted the $ when he was at work. I still can't believe that knowing I had no idea that what I was about to do was illegal, "we knew you were negligent" quoting one officer, and rather than just telling me they, they "have to do our job" and bust me!! I have asked everyone I know if they knew it was illegal, all but 1 had no clue. I really wonder why the couldn't have said "look this is illegal" and I would not have sold them and he could have saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars and no crime would have been committed. I believe this is a small sign as to how our government is ridiculous. The reason they have 6 officers protecting "stuffed animals" is to create revenue rather than layoff a few people!!!! Still in disbelief. And I do believe I will be requesting a Jury of peers!!!!


That sucks. I am sorry for your family's current situation and I hope that works out for you.

I would email the ever living poop out of the game commision with all the adds on craiglist and ebay with animals for sale. Just send them hundreds or thousands of emails. That was a waste of time for what they recovered but it is there job and they can waste tax payer dollars like all the other politicians.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

VK. I feel for you man. A warning could have been given, given the circumstances. But hey they were only doing their job right? what crap.

If that's the case, why don't they set up a sting for all of these. After all, the law is the law. 

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/south-carolina

the pinball sting. awsome! busting today's youth.:thumbs_do


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

TheCamoGhost said:


> Agreed!! My whole point in this is the absolute waste of time and money that neither the govt. nor VK have... Ghost


 The thing is the ball has already been put into motion to waste the money and there is no turning back the clock. As much as it sucks, this is the government. Once they spend money you have to in order to protect yourself, just borrow the money from China, tis what the gov does.


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

buckmark23 said:


> That sucks. I am sorry for your family's current situation and I hope that works out for you.
> 
> I would email the ever living poop out of the game commision with all the adds on craiglist and ebay with animals for sale. Just send them hundreds or thousands of emails. That was a waste of time for what they recovered but it is there job and they can waste tax payer dollars like all the other politicians.


 He's not a crack dealer, turning in ebay and craiglist ads (many of which have proper permitting) won't get him out of the trouble.


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## TheCamoGhost (Nov 16, 2005)

Jarocal said:


> The thing is the ball has already been put into motion to waste the money and there is no turning back the clock. As much as it sucks, this is the government. Once they spend money you have to in order to protect yourself, just borrow the money from China, tis what the gov does.


Yeah my rant was more at the fact that it was set in motion... PS after the issue of a ticket, I have gone with an LE friend to the judge presiding and had it dismissed... =) ghost


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## buckmark23 (Jul 1, 2006)

Jarocal said:


> He's not a crack dealer, turning in ebay and craiglist ads (many of which have proper permitting) won't get him out of the trouble.


I understand that but it was meant to flood there emails full of other BS since it's obvious that's what they like to follow.


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## AZ.Hunter8 (Oct 28, 2007)

man, I bet your buddy feels like crap. by giving the officer your contact info, he in effect got you busted. man that sucks! although he got busted too....

hope for the best.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

eorlando said:


> Don't big stores like basspro and cabella's buy mounts as well???? I thought I had heard of them buying mounts to be displyed in their stores. Is this true and ifso how do they get away with it????


The Cabela's here in Rogers, MN had a whole wall of deer mounts all with price tags on them. The last time I was in I think they were all taken down.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

redruff said:


> The Cabela's here in Rogers, MN had a whole wall of deer mounts all with price tags on them. The last time I was in I think they were all taken down.


In many states it is perfectly legal to buy and sell whitetail deer, and other animal mounts. In some states it is not.


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Big Country said:


> In many states it is perfectly legal to buy and sell whitetail deer, and other animal mounts. In some states it is not.


I don't know if its legal here in MN...I doubt it..but my point was, I wonder if Cabela's was selling them here illegally and then stopped and took them all down??
I honestly don't know, but they had a bunch, where very pricey and then they were all gone.?????


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

redruff said:


> I don't know if its legal here in MN...I doubt it..but my point was, I wonder if Cabela's was selling them here illegally and then stopped and took them all down??
> I honestly don't know, but they had a bunch, where very pricey and then they were all gone.?????


It should be easy to find out if selling them is legal in MN. Also, most of the mounts in Cabelas stores are reproductions anyhow, so they were most likely not selling anything that would be governed by any laws.


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## Notloc (Feb 2, 2010)

BuckWyld said:


> Bingo- Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
> 
> To the OP-your better off just pleading guilty to the a Judge. A jury will not sympathize with you if your only defense is "I just didnt know"


Hate to say it, but X2.


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## Caligater (Jun 25, 2008)

*I still mourn...*

Obituary of Common Sense !

Today, we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense.

Common Sense lived a long life, but died from heart failure at the brink of the Millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools; hospitals, homes, factories and offices, helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness.

For decades, petty rules, silly laws and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense. He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to come in from rain, the early bird gets the worm and life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge, not the kids), and it's okay to come in second.

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational trends including feminism, body piercing, whole language and new math.

But his health declined when he became infected with the "if-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus. In recent decades, his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal legislation.

He watched in pain as good people became ruled by self-seeking lawyers and enlightened auditors. His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies; when reports were heard of six year old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; when a teen was suspended for taking a swig of mouthwash after lunch; when a teacher was fired for reprimanding an unruly student. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but couldn't inform the parent when a female student is pregnant or wants an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost his will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional sports.

As the end neared, Common Sense drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments, regarding questionable regulations for asbestos, low-flow toilets, smart guns, the nurturing of Prohibition Laws and mandatory air bags.

Finally, when told that the homeowners association restricted exterior furniture only to that which enhanced property values, he breathed his last.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son Reason. His three stepbrothers survive him: Rights, Tolerance and Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.


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## SunRiverMan (May 30, 2007)

I wouldn't go to trial and hope for a sympathetic jury. I would get a lawyer and ask him to try and get it deferred. Six months later, with no new infractions, and you do not have a conviction on your record.

This is serious whether you knew the law or not. Get a lawyer no matter what you think of them or can pay, and not a public defender. IMHO. SRM


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## zyxw (Feb 19, 2007)

Problem is if he had the extra money to hire a lawyer he probabally wouldn't have been selling stuff just to pay bills. Just a really bad decission by the COs hurt an otherwise good person. It is now a no win situation for him


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

*someone*

better shut this one down!:teeth: Things are a bit out of hand!!ukey: 232 posts in les than 24 hours not a whole lot of "helping" going on either......

I'm sure a MOD will step up and do the prudent thing,


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## Hubba (Apr 15, 2005)

VanillaKilla said:


> Just to clarify somethings.
> 
> 1. I was selling all my mounts, because I am losing my home and needed the money to find a roof to put over our heads. By the way 2 of the mounts are in the state record book and my "prized possessions" so it is not a case of wanting to sell them but "being a man" as someone posted and selling them to provide for my family.
> 
> ...


Any of you "the law is the law" guys who live in any of these states listed above and have partaken in any of the activities listed above had better go turn yourselves in. 

After all, ignorance of the law is no excuse.......:mg:


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## Buckmeister (Dec 19, 2004)

It wont be long untill more goveernment employees like them are unemployed, right now they dont know what its like to be broke, while it is against the law you would think they would have some widom and compassion.


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

Hubba said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Any of you "the law is the law" guys who live in any of these states listed above and have partaken in any of the activities listed above had better go turn yourselves in.
> 
> After all, ignorance of the law is no excuse.......:mg:


VERY good points !!

I am on your side here and hope you get this thrown out

You've admitted wrong, but knew it wasn't wrong to begin with and there wouldn't have been any wrong doing if you knew

funny, most of us on here would do things knowingly to support our families if needed.

Good luck, keep us updated on how it goes, you got my prayers and support, wish I was in better finacial spot, I'd help you out that way too.


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## 123 4/8 P&Y (Jul 10, 2008)

That sucks. Can you plea bargain? Isn't that entrapment? Good luck.


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## Plyr58 (May 14, 2009)

VanillaKilla said:


> Well where do I start. I was in construction and have been unemployed for over a year. Things have been getting harder and harder. We are scheduled to lose our home in March. This being said I need to get some money together to find a place for me, my wife, and 3 kids. So I put an add on craigslist to start selling furniture, mower, 4 wheeler. *I also listed my taxidermy*. I have a friend who listed a mounted mallard on craigslist. So he gets a call on it and a guy comes to his house last friday to look at it. Asking him if he has anymore he says no but I have a friend who has some, and he gives him my number. The guy calls me and I setup a meeting for yesterday morning. The guy then calls my friend back and sets up the same time. Long story short undercover wildlife officers buy 1 mallard mount from him and one whitetail shoulder mount and a pair of mounted mallards from me. During the 30 minutes I spent with this officer telling him my situation he never mentioned that what I was about to do was illegal. Being completely clueless that it was illegal to sell a deer or duck mount they lead me into their "sting". So they fine me $500, set a court date, and confiscate my mounts. I am beside myself that 6 no really six state paid employees have time to do this!!!!. My friend received the same and his 65 yr old mother a warning because she accepted the $ when he was at work. I still can't believe that knowing I had no idea that what I was about to do was illegal, "we knew you were negligent" quoting one officer, and rather than just telling me they, they "have to do our job" and bust me!! I have asked everyone I know if they knew it was illegal, all but 1 had no clue. I really wonder why the couldn't have said "look this is illegal" and I would not have sold them and he could have saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars and no crime would have been committed. I believe this is a small sign as to how our government is ridiculous. The reason they have 6 officers protecting "stuffed animals" is to create revenue rather than layoff a few people!!!! Still in disbelief. And I do believe I will be requesting a Jury of peers!!!!


What does this mean? Did you list your mounts for sale or did you advertise your taxidermy skills?

There is a fine line between getting caught in a sting operation and entrapment. Entrapment is when a police officer entices someone to break the law when they otherwise wouldn't.

People get caught in sting operations because they were breaking the law of their own accord. Here, if you didn't have them advertised for sale, the LE entrapped you when they enticed you by calling you to see if you would sell them.

I know you are hard up for cash with being out of work, but you need to find a lawyer. Feel free to PM me. Some of my law school classmates practice in SC.


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## Plyr58 (May 14, 2009)

VanillaKilla said:


> # Places where oral sex is illegal: Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Georgia, North and South Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Virginia and Washington D.C.
> 
> # In Georgia those charged and convicted for either oral or anal sex can be sentenced to no less than one year and no more than 20 years imprisonment. . No really look it up. Time for some sting operations at every home in these states!!! $


While I understand the point you are making, in 2003 the Supreme Court said in Loving v. Texas that the 14th Amendment entitles citizens to engage in basically any sexual conduct they please in the privacy of their home. 

While these laws are still on the books in many states, they are unenforceable because of the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution which essentially states that any state law in conflict with a Federal is overruled by the Federal Law.


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## alxb2003 (Nov 1, 2009)

our government really sucks....let the terrorist walk and screw a broke guy selling his possessions .............if you get a legal fund going p/m me the info. would like to donate a little.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Plyr58 said:


> While I understand the point you are making, in 2003 the Supreme Court said in Loving v. Texas that the 14th Amendment entitles citizens to engage in basically any sexual conduct they please in the privacy of their home.
> 
> While these laws are still on the books in many states, they are unenforceable because of the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution which essentially states that any state law in conflict with a Federal is overruled by the Federal Law.


Although that very well might be, that does not mean that an officer can't still write you a citation and fine you for those acts. What it means is that you will win in court if you decide to fight it....but at what cost? Just because it's unconstitutional doesn't mean that it won't cost you a bunch of bucks to protect your right. There'in lies the problem.


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## AVENSTOKE (Dec 5, 2006)

Reading this just reminded me it's illegal in Kentucky too.Yet a pawn shop 1/4 mile from the fish and wildlife department has mounted deer which people have pawned and never picked up for sale.


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## ultratec1 (Jan 3, 2005)

Here is the thing, LEO have a thing that they excercise called situational law enforcment. This gives the officers the chance to evaluate the situation and determine what direction the case or offense can be taken. This is highly excercised during traffic stops. That little ticket you get is not mandatory. All that is is a promise to appear in court, basically a written bond. If that officer thought that you needed to go to jail for speeding and could justify it then they can take you to jail for the simple speeding infraction you just commited. This samething applys here. Maybe the LEO should have looked at the overall situation and then based his/her decision upon that. The LE community is not here to rule with an iron fist, I know that some of you hardcore LEO are saying other wise but your not. Your here to SERVE and PROTECT the local population that your employed for. Just remember that the next time you pull someone over that that person just maybe the one that stops to help when your in a 10-33 situation or just keeps driving by and does nothing.


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## alabamafan2 (Jan 21, 2009)

This should make you even more angry. In the state of South Carolina, Wildlife Violations are not expungable. If convicted, it will never be removed from your record.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

ugh, more bad news....alabamafan2


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## BuckWyld (May 5, 2006)

VanillaKilla said:


> 5. Crime, Punishment and the Ridiculous
> 
> # Places where oral sex is illegal: Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Georgia, North and South Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Virginia and Washington D.C.
> 
> ...


I certainly would not encourage you to use this approach in your defense in front of a Judge or a Jury.


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

AVENSTOKE said:


> Reading this just reminded me it's illegal in Kentucky too.Yet a pawn shop 1/4 mile from the fish and wildlife department has mounted deer which people have pawned and never picked up for sale.


Our DNR work on a complaint driven basis. If no one calls, they don't do any independant investigation. 

We have few CO's , so they are pretty busy year round with responding to complaints/calls


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## tocs (Jul 8, 2005)

The exercise of discretion is one of the most critical aspects of Law Enforcement work.Unfortunately so many governmental agencies are now doing what ever they can to generate revenue.Consequently I believe and have seen in my home state that there is a lot more aggressiveness in the issuing of citations that defy common sense.
Are we all responsible for the consequences that come when we break the law.Yes we are! Are LEO's being stripped of their discretionary powers in the attempt for government agencies to generate more money? I believe they are.
Did this poor guy unknowingly commit a crime?Yes he did.Should the LEO's have used greater discretion?Seemingly they should have.
Last comment from me is that we are only hearing one side of the story.The officers may have not used discretion because of other aspects of how every thing came down.
In general though I have less and less faith in Government and their actual concern for what is right versus them generating dollars to keep feeding their excess and waste.


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## Justwin24 (Feb 6, 2008)

Another dangerous law breaking criminal at work.

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/spo/1620617701.html


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't think there is a problem if proof of ownership can be traced. If the guy you sell it to gets proof you took it legaly and sold it to him alls good. That's how the big stores do it I think.

I do believe that this kind of law enforcement is going to do more harm than good. When the good guys use the same tactics as the bad guys respect for the law will suffer greatly. Supposed to be guys on the white horses easily recognizable from a distance, not these days. Going to be real hard for kids to look up to guys in black sneeking around. Say the ends justify the means if you want but I don't think your looking at the end if you do.

I also think it is wrong to recieve a mount without proof. If so the law is as guilty and ignorance isn't an excuse. If they asked for proof (you didn't say) what did you say?


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## Jarocal (Feb 21, 2010)

nodog said:


> I don't think there is a problem if proof of ownership can be traced. If the guy you sell it to gets proof you took it legaly and sold it to him alls good. That's how the big stores do it I think.
> 
> I do believe that this kind of law enforcement is going to do more harm than good. When the good guys use the same tactics as the bad guys respect for the law will suffer greatly. Supposed to be guys on the white horses easily recognizable from a distance, not these days. Going to be real hard for kids to look up to guys in black sneeking around. Say the ends justify the means if you want but I don't think your looking at the end if you do.
> 
> I also think it is wrong to recieve a mount without proof. If so the law is as guilty and ignorance isn't an excuse. If they asked for proof (you didn't say) what did you say?


 Waterfowl have to be proven as domestically raised birds in order to be sold. There is a link to the fws website way back on page 1 or 2.


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

That is a stupid law.I hope you can win your court case.Sounds like entrapment to me.
Just because its a law doesnt make it right.How do they sleep at night ?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. I don't think I'd even hire a lawyer for it. Just show up for the court date, say "I didn't know it was wrong, sorry, won't happen again" and let them decide my fate.


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## 2X_LUNG (May 9, 2009)

Holy Sheeeeet! I sold one of my mounts on ebay a couple years ago. I dunno if that is the law in Ohio or not. I had no clue that was even a law. I figured if I tagged it, it's mine just like if I buy a car...it's mine. I can then sell it as I pleae. Very interesting....dammmm


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## 2X_LUNG (May 9, 2009)

Bobmuley said:


> I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. I don't think I'd even hire a lawyer for it. Just show up for the court date, say "I didn't know it was wrong, sorry, won't happen again" and let them decide my fate.




I love arresting people like you...with that mentality... although a little fight turns into a little extra overtime and money for me...hehe


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

2X_LUNG said:


> I love arresting people like you...with that mentality... although a little fight turns into a little extra overtime and money for me...hehe


Maybe officers like YOU are the problem....:mg:


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

2X_LUNG said:


> Holy Sheeeeet! I sold one of my mounts on ebay a couple years ago. I dunno if that is the law in Ohio or not. I had no clue that was even a law. I figured if I tagged it, it's mine just like if I buy a car...it's mine. I can then sell it as I pleae. Very interesting....dammmm


hmmm.....if it is are you gonna turn yourself in?


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## dieseltech (Jun 22, 2008)

*The Law*

It seems that you did not meet the intent of the law. This is very important. The officers that have to uphold the law do have to know the intent of the law. I would do as you are thinking and request a trial by jury. Also point out that you were not making a profit (were you?) This will help plead your case that you are not a poacher selling mounts for profit. Now if you were selling 50 mounts of trophy animals, I would have to question that. Again, the intent of the law is to stop poaching/market hunting not to keep a person from cleaning their attic or coming up with cash in hard times. I would also slap those officers with a civil suit. Even if you get nothing out of the civil suit, they will think about their actions. It is obvious that they knew your plight and felt that you were an easy target, don't let them win.


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## dxtbowhuntersj (May 8, 2008)

all im going to say is the countries game and fish are fixing to make alot of enemies. people are going to give up on the laws and do what they want.


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## zyxw (Feb 19, 2007)

For some reason there are some law enforcement officers who just are either afraid to use their own brain and or judgement or not smart enough to do so. In the worst case I ever remember we ha 2 teens here siwmming in an area that was marked No Swimming. It was at a boat launching area. One of the two drowned and while the other kid and firends and family were there, very distraught watching as divers tried to find the our local CO came over and issued a citation to the other kidd for swimming in a No Swimming zone. It got ugly real fast. He was latter repramanded and made to apoligze to the families involved. Should have lost his job in my opinion


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## DrumdudeLarry (Mar 22, 2008)

Uncle Bucky said:


> Yes, request a jury, and be part of the selection of picking them.
> 
> I would ask potential jurors how they feel about government involvment in our lives and what boundries they believe our government should have.
> 
> ...


Definitely a good idea!!!

Stinks that they have nothing better to do than harass a law abiding citizen who is already down on his luck. Our prayers are with you brother!


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## 2X_LUNG (May 9, 2009)

Skeptic said:


> hmmm.....if it is are you gonna turn yourself in?


still thinkin about it


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## 2X_LUNG (May 9, 2009)

Skeptic said:


> hmmm.....if it is are you gonna turn yourself in?


thinkin about it...not sure yet..


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

Skeptic said:


> hmmm.....if it is are you gonna turn yourself in?


No he's going to use that discretionary power and make the decision there was no criminal intent. You know like they should have done with the original poster of this thread.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

2X_LUNG said:


> I love arresting people like you...with that mentality... although a little fight turns into a little extra overtime and money for me...hehe


 An unfortunate example of today's law enforcement mentality: 

Arrests = job justification+overtime wages


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## Teh Wicked (Jul 30, 2009)

So can someone explain why the selling of a mounted animals is illegal? And why a DNR officer would go so far to arrest and fine someone for such a dumb crime? I mean honestly? Are they that damn bored? Sounds to me like they need to be given something productive to do...


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

dieseltech said:


> I would also slap those officers with a civil suit. Even if you get nothing out of the civil suit, they will think about their actions. It is obvious that they knew your plight and felt that you were an easy target, don't let them win.


Yup and then their civil service commission will be enacted which is put their to protect officers from that sort of thing(whether they are wrong or not) The outcome will be more overtime for the officer.......which they would enjoy.


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Teh Wicked said:


> So can someone explain why the selling of a mounted animals is illegal? And why a DNR officer would go so far to arrest and fine someone for such a dumb crime? I mean honestly? Are they that damn bored? Sounds to me like they need to be given something productive to do...


While I do not agree with the OP being charged in the situation described.....the laws are there for a very legitimate reason. If it was a free-for-all regarding selling mounted animals and animal parts, poaching would be much more common than it already is. The more rare the animal is, the bigger the market for it.

While the enforcement seems to have gone too far in this particular instance, the laws are just, and needed.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

Teh Wicked said:


> So can someone explain why the selling of a mounted animals is illegal? And why a DNR officer would go so far to arrest and fine someone for such a dumb crime? I mean honestly? Are they that damn bored? Sounds to me like they need to be given something productive to do...


I can't imagine a good reason other than trying to curb the outlaw minority from poaching and selling. damn the majority.

as to why...I believe the answer(in my opinion only) is that this time of year is not action packed. They still have to fill up 40/week. Still have to justify their wages with revenue made. It always comes down to money.


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## bigoleboy (Apr 19, 2009)

*Civil suit*



dieseltech said:


> It seems that you did not meet the intent of the law. This is very important. The officers that have to uphold the law do have to know the intent of the law. I would do as you are thinking and request a trial by jury. Also point out that you were not making a profit (were you?) This will help plead your case that you are not a poacher selling mounts for profit. Now if you were selling 50 mounts of trophy animals, I would have to question that. Again, the intent of the law is to stop poaching/market hunting not to keep a person from cleaning their attic or coming up with cash in hard times. I would also slap those officers with a civil suit. Even if you get nothing out of the civil suit, they will think about their actions. It is obvious that they knew your plight and felt that you were an easy target, don't let them win.


Lets see, he lost his job and home and he is going to file a civil suite at $250 an hour for an attorney!! Not wise or good advice!!!!


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## Teh Wicked (Jul 30, 2009)

Well, laws like that need to be uniform and not particular state to state. THen is a AArchery shop in FL that buy's peoples old mounts and such and hang them on the wall of there shop. And more often then you think people come in and buy them off the wall. Purely for decoration.

Also if the state is worried about poaching and people trying to make a business of mounts. thats an easy fix, just do it like EVERY other state and enforce a game check-in at an offical station and then once the tag has been signed and made offical then the hunter can take the game animals to the taxidermy and with presentation of a legally sign tag then the animal can be mounted.

Im in the Military and I go home to WV to hunt for free all the time. I killed my first buck last year so I decided to have a euro mount done. Well it was a hassle getting it all legal cause I was on a free license. But now I have a sweet mount...


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

Bobmuley said:


> I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion. I don't think I'd even hire a lawyer for it. Just show up for the court date, say "I didn't know it was wrong, sorry, won't happen again" and let them decide my fate.


Whew!!! Glad to see another common sense thread. For those that say the prosecuter won't want to talk...wrong. First court appearance, you plead, and the PA will hope to talk to you and cut you a deal up front. It's not murder or rape, it's a $500 fine and all involved will be happy to keep it from tying up court time.

Again...if it was me...this is exactly what I would do.


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## hawgdawg (Sep 8, 2002)

Around our area you get harsher penalities for game violations than for drug possession. Seems as though the druggies leave the court rooms faster than their lawyers. In our local weekly newspaper in the arrest pages you seems to see the same people being arrested time after time. It's all personal responsibility as stated before.


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## Matt W. (Jan 2, 2010)

To the Original Poster.....

I would call a local attorney's office. Most attorneys will allow you 1 FREE appointment. Go to the attorney, and tell him what you are facing. Let him tell you your options, then you decide what to do. Best of Luck!


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

VanillaKilla said:


> Well where do I start. I was in construction and have been unemployed for over a year. Things have been getting harder and harder. We are scheduled to lose our home in March. This being said I need to get some money together to find a place for me, my wife, and 3 kids. So I put an add on craigslist to start selling furniture, mower, 4 wheeler. I also listed my taxidermy. I have a friend who listed a mounted mallard on craigslist. So he gets a call on it and a guy comes to his house last friday to look at it. Asking him if he has anymore he says no but I have a friend who has some, and he gives him my number. The guy calls me and I setup a meeting for yesterday morning. The guy then calls my friend back and sets up the same time. Long story short undercover wildlife officers buy 1 mallard mount from him and one whitetail shoulder mount and a pair of mounted mallards from me. During the 30 minutes I spent with this officer telling him my situation he never mentioned that what I was about to do was illegal. Being completely clueless that it was illegal to sell a deer or duck mount they lead me into their "sting". So they fine me $500, set a court date, and confiscate my mounts. I am beside myself that 6 no really six state paid employees have time to do this!!!!. My friend received the same and his 65 yr old mother a warning because she accepted the $ when he was at work. I still can't believe that knowing I had no idea that what I was about to do was illegal, "we knew you were negligent" quoting one officer, and rather than just telling me they, they "have to do our job" and bust me!! I have asked everyone I know if they knew it was illegal, all but 1 had no clue. I really wonder why the couldn't have said "look this is illegal" and I would not have sold them and he could have saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars and no crime would have been committed. I believe this is a small sign as to how our government is ridiculous. The reason they have 6 officers protecting "stuffed animals" is to create revenue rather than layoff a few people!!!! Still in disbelief. And I do believe I will be requesting a Jury of peers!!!!



If I was a juror on your case I wouldnt give a guilty verdict. The law itself is wrong. I would use jury nullification by giving you an innocent verdict.......however I am in Nebraska so I hope you get this rediculous charge thrown out. Also do some research and find out how many officers and hours were spent on your case and compare what the state spent on you in relation to the cost to bust you and all parties invovled. Do the math it may shock the court. This is just another example of idiotic power hungry sociopaths flexing their muscles and egos.........oh and for you sensitive types out there........this of course is my opinion.


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## justanotherbuck (Aug 5, 2007)

this story is just unbelievable,no wonder why people are pissed at our government,man they can really throw the book at you just for that darn duck,,,,,you might as well been selling funny weed or purple headed shrooms ,,,,,,,,,,,like the Obama says you will only be protected by our government ONLY if your a law abiding citizen


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## lavazhole (Jul 30, 2005)

Post the number of the head CPO and his name and all those involved in the "sting". We also need to know your state rep and senator. They need to be brought in as well. They squirm like the spineless bugs they are when people stand up to them. Every minute they are working on this is one less minute they have to line their pockets and sell you out so keep them busy!

We all then start to call call them 1000's times and tell them we we will not allow this kind of bullying and harassment to go on.

You get this in the news and give out your story ASAP. Pressure them to make this right. You should settle for nothing less than all charges dropped and a formal apology.

These people are the criminals, shine some light on the situation.


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## buckhunter2705 (Feb 10, 2010)

Mr. October said:


> Selling of wild game (meat, hide, horns, or any part) is strictly illegal in most States. In some places there are exceptions for trophy mounts. I know Cabelas can buy them but believe some sort of permitting is in place. It is your responsibility to know the law.
> 
> That said, this sort of sting is ridiculous. OBVIOUSLY you had no idea and a simple phone call could have made life easier all the way around. But as States and game agencies get pinched for money this is how they are generating revenue.


cabelas and bass pro most of the time don't buy the mounts the people who shoot them donate them in return the store gives them gift certificates and a replica mount of the animal for there home if its a record buck or something like that


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## buckhunter2705 (Feb 10, 2010)

BuckWyld said:


> I certainly would not encourage you to use this approach in your defense in front of a Judge or a Jury.


shoot if you read mississippi laws it illegal to have sex before your married


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## Canuck Archer (Jul 1, 2007)

Check with your local state rep or the equivalent there of.
Sometimes some political pressure will help a lot. Good press for the politician fighting for the "common" man never hurt around election time. 
Also if you have a local tv station that may lend a sympathetic minute of air time about a working man caught in a sting where he was enticed in to breaking the law.
Good luck with your case.
P.S. As a last resort in our courts they usually reduce down the fine if you are willing to plead guilty and not go to trial.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

Does this mean I should take my stuffed bald eagle off of craigslist..

:jksign:


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## ebonarcher (Mar 2, 2008)

It's very illegal to do anything with animals that are endangered no matter how you find them. Wether you find a single feather on the ground or a whole dead carcuss.


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## shadowcat05 (Dec 31, 2005)

If you have the Lic. Check-in info. ect... with the mounts or in your posesion
I would think that the proof that the animals were taken legally it wouldn't matter if you sold them. But the tags / lic. information has to stay with the critters. I'm not sure if it is this way there but I would think that proof of harvest is a proof of harvest. Plus the taxidermist is supposed to keep that info for 3 years anyway. so you could get it from them if you don't have it.

My 2 cents. hope it helps you get a few things to take to court with you. Like the lic. and tags.


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

It is not illegal in every state just some so do your homework before you sell any animal parts !


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## jeffnvegas (Dec 3, 2006)

this whole thing is ludicrous! wasting time on it when real criminals like charley rangel are roaming the halls of congress and investment bankers have raped the country to the tune of TRILLIONS of our tax dollars because of their credit default swaps etc. is beyond me! this country needs to return to some kind of sanity. isn't the tyranny of the aristocracy in Britain the reason we had a revolution?


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

well said.


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## scottiwad4 (Nov 14, 2008)

Pretty sure that to get a jury trial you have to plead not guilty . Not sure coming on a public forum and professing guilt was was in that best interest . To all the people who say they if they were on a jury and would vote not guilty because they don't agree with the way law enforcement handled the situation even though a law was broken ... O.J. thanks you for years of freedom. I have receieved many speeding tickets... and been warned a few times too. Makes me wonder how many people were given warnings before this poor guy was the unlucky one to get busted?


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

It never fails!!! Every forum dedicated to hunting or fishing alway, ALWAYS gets around to bashing law enforcement in some way. AT is apparently no exception. And anyone who defends the LEO's is "ashamed of" or looked down upon. Give me a break!!

The OP broke the law. He just posted a CONFESSION on a public forum and some of you are suggesting he go to a jury trial? What is it about the jury process you don't understand? The prosecutor now likely has the OP's confession on record. You do realize don't you that the LEO's could possibly get a search warrant for your home and sieze your computer as evidence of your confession? That's what I would do if I was the "mean old LEO" that issued you the citation. AND the OP's complaint about the actions of law enforcement AND the OP's opinions that he is somehow special and shouldn't be prosecuted like everyone else is now on record. You tell the OP to "tell the jury his side"? Yeah, this will open him up to cross examination by a D.A. who is likely pissed off at this point and wants to prove his side. It goes like this. D.A. "Mr. OP, did you sell two mounted ducks and a mounted deer to agent so and so?" OP, "why yes I did". Jury: Guilty!! And by the way, the prosecutor is not going to have a conversation with you about your case (at least they can't ethically), they will talk with your attorny if you have one, but they won't talk to you. All you would get out of that is a confession on record.

All the "I don't have a job" and the "I didn't know" stuff is irrelevant and won't be allowed in court. The jury will never hear it.

Some are trying to get the OP to pick a fight with the D.A and the Judges???
Stupid, stupid, stupid.

The LEO's judgement here is not relevant. They issued a misdemeanor citation for a criminal act. They did NOT book him into the local county jail, which I'm sure was an option. They did NOT seize any more of his property than was needed as evidence, though they probably could have. They did NOT make this as hard on him as they could have. The LEO's, in my opinion, showed great restraint and understanding. That's what they are paid to do. They "summoned" the OP to court to let a judge or jury decide if the OP should be punished, they did not make that decision and that is as it should be. I guess some of you would prefer the LEO's to make decisions about guilt or innocence at their level and just let those who violate the law go?

If the OP won't lose his hunting privileges, or his right to own firearms, he should take his medicine. Enter a guilty plea, pay his fine and move on. I would, however, make sure that I wasn't losing the above rights before entering any plea and that may require the use of an attorney.

Fighting the system is great WHEN YOUR INNOCENT. But when you're guilty, it usually not the best way to go. Pick your battles carefully.

OP, please don't listen to the hot-head LEO bashers on this forum. These hot-heads have absolutely nothing to lose by watching you do what they all claim they would do.

If you listen to anyone, listen to an attorney.

I sympathize with your situation and hope everything works out well for you.


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

jeffnvegas said:


> this whole thing is ludicrous! wasting time on it when real criminals like charley rangel are roaming the halls of congress and investment bankers have raped the country to the tune of TRILLIONS of our tax dollars because of their credit default swaps etc. is beyond me! this country needs to return to some kind of sanity. isn't the tyranny of the aristocracy in Britain the reason we had a revolution?


Last I heard it wasn't a game wardens job to police the U.S. Congress.

Writing a guy (who's clearly guilty) a $500 citation is tyranny? :mg:


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

ultratec1 said:


> Here is the thing, LEO have a thing that they excercise called situational law enforcment. This gives the officers the chance to evaluate the situation and determine what direction the case or offense can be taken. This is highly excercised during traffic stops. That little ticket you get is not mandatory. All that is is a promise to appear in court, basically a written bond. If that officer thought that you needed to go to jail for speeding and could justify it then they can take you to jail for the simple speeding infraction you just commited. This samething applys here. Maybe the LEO should have looked at the overall situation and then based his/her decision upon that. The LE community is not here to rule with an iron fist, I know that some of you hardcore LEO are saying other wise but your not. Your here to SERVE and PROTECT the local population that your employed for. Just remember that the next time you pull someone over that that person just maybe the one that stops to help when your in a 10-33 situation or just keeps driving by and does nothing.



So a LEO should let you off with a warning on the off chance that you might stop when he or she is in need of help? (I don't know what a 10-33 is). Shouldn't someone stop to assist an officer (or anyone else for that matter) who is in need of help regardless of whether or not they've received a speeding ticket? I think so. 

I've never heard of "situational law enforcement". This doesn't sound like a very valid use of law enforcement resources to me. LEO's are not the jury or judge. LEO's bring cases to the jury or judge based on what they observed. They then testify to what they observed. The jury and judge make the decision of guilt or innocence, regardless of what the LEO believes. Happens every day in this country. 

You made the point that these officers DID use discretion with the OP. They could have put him in jail but they didn't, that's called discretion.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

DXT SHOOTER said:


> Last I heard it wasn't a game wardens job to police the U.S. Congress.
> 
> Writing a guy (who's clearly guilty) a $500 citation is tyranny? :mg:


For most people, a LEO's job is to be 2 seconds away when they need them, and as far away as possible when they don't.


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

dieseltech said:


> It seems that you did not meet the intent of the law. This is very important. The officers that have to uphold the law do have to know the intent of the law. I would do as you are thinking and request a trial by jury. Also point out that you were not making a profit (were you?) This will help plead your case that you are not a poacher selling mounts for profit. Now if you were selling 50 mounts of trophy animals, I would have to question that. Again, the intent of the law is to stop poaching/market hunting not to keep a person from cleaning their attic or coming up with cash in hard times. I would also slap those officers with a civil suit. Even if you get nothing out of the civil suit, they will think about their actions. It is obvious that they knew your plight and felt that you were an easy target, don't let them win.


A civil suit? OK. Specifically what constitutional rights were violated here? This is some of the dumbest advice I've seen on this thread. Jailhouse lawyers.....Ugh.


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

50bowhunter said:


> For most people, a LEO's job is to be 2 seconds away when they need them, and as far away as possible when they don't.


Agree completely.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

dieseltech said:


> It seems that you did not meet the intent of the law. This is very important. The officers that have to uphold the law do have to know the intent of the law. I would do as you are thinking and request a trial by jury. Also point out that you were not making a profit (were you?) This will help plead your case that you are not a poacher selling mounts for profit. Now if you were selling 50 mounts of trophy animals, I would have to question that. Again, the intent of the law is to stop poaching/market hunting not to keep a person from cleaning their attic or coming up with cash in hard times. I would also slap those officers with a civil suit. Even if you get nothing out of the civil suit, they will think about their actions. It is obvious that they knew your plight and felt that you were an easy target, don't let them win.



The "intent" of speed limits are to reduce the number of traffic crashes, thus reducing the number of injuries and deaths. I suppose I can go 100mph and just because I didn't crash or hurt anyone, I should be let go with a warning because I didn't meet the intent of the law.


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## tocs (Jul 8, 2005)

DXT SHOOTER said:


> Last I heard it wasn't a game wardens job to police the U.S. Congress.
> 
> Writing a guy (who's clearly guilty) a $500 citation is tyranny? :mg:


I guess it's a matter of whether an LEO wants to be respected or whether they want to be right.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

tocs said:


> I guess it's a matter of whether an LEO wants to be respected or whether they want to be right.


More likely a matter of whether they want to be respected by the person that signs their paycheck. I mean what kind of miserable person comes to work every day and does the job he gets paid to do. I need to get a job where some of you guys work where I can ignore my responsibilities and still get paid.


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

tocs said:


> I guess it's a matter of whether an LEO wants to be respected or whether they want to be right.



This makes no sense. You don't respect LEO's who do their job right? Would you prefer they were wrong? You know, sending innocent people to prison and such? Respect is nice, but being right is much more important to a LEO, at least to a good one.


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

Shortly after reading this thread there was a news article describing the abuses of the politicians that run S.C. Can't possibly be a coincidence. 

Some people see a glass half full and some half empty. I wouldn't think of this as good or bad just yet. A process has been started, explore all the options before you stand and admit anything. Daughter was wrongfully accused in an accident, a friend who's a lawyer took the case. Not only did he get it thrown out on appeal he got the appeals court to strongly warn the PA office and the law changed. Since then the assistant PA ran for office and lost. Don't be in such a hurry to get this over with, I'm sure in some sense they depend on you feeling that way. Take your time and do it right. These things take time to get through.

Your forced into a situation that can really educate you on how this nation works, maybe painful but at least get what your being forced to pay for, illumination. You'll be the better for it.


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

DXT SHOOTER said:


> It never fails!!! Every forum dedicated to hunting or fishing alway, ALWAYS gets around to bashing law enforcement in some way. AT is apparently no exception. And anyone who defends the LEO's is "ashamed of" or looked down upon. Give me a break!!
> 
> The OP broke the law. He just posted a CONFESSION on a public forum and some of you are suggesting he go to a jury trial? What is it about the jury process you don't understand? The prosecutor now likely has the OP's confession on record. You do realize don't you that the LEO's could possibly get a search warrant for your home and sieze your computer as evidence of your confession? That's what I would do if I was the "mean old LEO" that issued you the citation. AND the OP's complaint about the actions of law enforcement AND the OP's opinions that he is somehow special and shouldn't be prosecuted like everyone else is now on record. You tell the OP to "tell the jury his side"? Yeah, this will open him up to cross examination by a D.A. who is likely pissed off at this point and wants to prove his side. It goes like this. D.A. "Mr. OP, did you sell two mounted ducks and a mounted deer to agent so and so?" OP, "why yes I did". Jury: Guilty!! And by the way, the prosecutor is not going to have a conversation with you about your case (at least they can't ethically), they will talk with your attorny if you have one, but they won't talk to you. All you would get out of that is a confession on record.
> 
> ...


Very well said.....the ICO that handled the poachers on my property worked hard to get to the truth. I could not thank him enough. I shudder at the lack of respect for the law aired here....Solohunter


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

DXT SHOOTER said:


> This makes no sense. You don't respect LEO's who do their job right? Would you prefer they were wrong? You know, sending innocent people to prison and such? Respect is nice, but being right is much more important to a LEO, at least to a good one.


I think they go hand in hand. There is a right way to be right and a wrong way to be right.

Nothing wrong with a warning where one is deserved.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

nodog said:


> I think they go hand in hand. There is a right way to be right and a wrong way to be right.
> 
> Nothing wrong with a warning where one is deserved.


I would like to know what one has to do to "deserve" a warning instead of a summons/arrest. With no offense to the OP, everyone has an excuse for what they did. You may find this hard to believe I have had very few people look at me and say they were wrong and deserved to be charged.


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

DXT SHOOTER said:


> The OP broke the law. He just posted a CONFESSION on a public forum and some of you are suggesting he go to a jury trial? What is it about the jury process you don't understand? The prosecutor now likely has the OP's confession on record. You do realize don't you that the LEO's could possibly get a search warrant for your home and sieze your computer as evidence of your confession? .


Thought I was the only one around here that understood that. He didn't however admit much. He admitted he was clueless and sold something he owned. Basically he was unaware he wasn't the only owner of what he thought was his.


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## Uncle Bucky (Oct 30, 2009)

50bowhunter said:


> I would like to know what one has to do to "deserve" a warning instead of a summons/arrest. With no offense to the OP, everyone has an excuse for what they did. You may find this hard to believe I have had very few people look at me and say they were wrong and deserved to be charged.


No I agree there are some circumstances where a citiation or ticket is not warranted or in the best interest of either party.

No, I have been caught speeding ( Too many times) in my youth, not once did I try to use an excuse, fessed up , admitted it and took my ticket (s) like a man. 

Only one time did I question and that was a stop light violation that the police officer was admittingly confused about what car he actually saw and the case was thrown out. ( there were 3 cars behind me )

Some excuses are legitimate, thus why officers are given the ability to decifer and make field judgements accordingly and also why we have courts where the accused can make his/her case and have a judge or jury of their peers make a final judgement ( which still isnt' final if you want to appeal)

I mean if not for this we'd have marital law where you get pulled over and the officer just takes your money, accuses you of anything they feel they can get away with and you are stuck at their mercy.


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

50bowhunter said:


> I would like to know what one has to do to "deserve" a warning instead of a summons/arrest. With no offense to the OP, everyone has an excuse for what they did. You may find this hard to believe I have had very few people look at me and say they were wrong and deserved to be charged.


If your the one who can give one you should know. I have friends in law enforcement who could say. I don't find it hard to believe but do find it hard to believe that people should realize that they don't actually own what they own. I think a warning is more than acceptable in that situation. I have no idea if this guy deserved one, just his story.


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## MarksExtra (Feb 20, 2010)

50bowhunter said:


> I would like to know what one has to do to "deserve" a warning instead of a summons/arrest. With no offense to the OP, everyone has an excuse for what they did. You may find this hard to believe I have had very few people look at me and say they were wrong and deserved to be charged.


two comments: First; you should already know the answer to your first question. If you can't see that there are times that you should use discretion, you should quit your day job. No offense.

Second: Unfortunately you are so right. It's very rare when someone thinks they deserve to be charged....and the way you put it, is even better said.


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## NJ-ATHENS (Jan 26, 2007)

thats is a dumb law if you paid for it to have the taxidermy done you should be able to sell it to, there not stoping the taxidermy on ebay they got for sale

wow!! thats to crazy


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

nodog said:


> If your the one who can give one you should know. I have friends in law enforcement who could say. I don't find it hard to believe but do find it hard to believe that people should realize that they don't actually own what they own. I think a warning is more than acceptable in that situation. I have no idea if this guy deserved one, just his story.


Well if you have friends that are that good at reading people then they are waisting their talents as a LEO. If I was that good I would be making my living at a poker table instead of sticking my neck out there to make the peanuts I'm taking home.


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## jjallison (Jun 26, 2008)

jeffnvegas said:


> this whole thing is ludicrous! wasting time on it when real criminals like charley rangel are roaming the halls of congress and investment bankers have raped the country to the tune of TRILLIONS of our tax dollars because of their credit default swaps etc. is beyond me! this country needs to return to some kind of sanity. isn't the tyranny of the aristocracy in Britain the reason we had a revolution?



I look at the scope of a " Game Wardens" responsibility and find your post quite funny. Most "Game Wardens" are sworn State Law Enforcement officers meaning that they have the right to enforce any state statute as well as code and ordinance violations within their state. Now, the officers I have run across seem to focus their efforts on enforcing resource and wildlife violations. Some states even haven wildlife agencies with investigators that focus on internet crimes with regards to wildlife. This is what these people get paid to enforce. If you think its crazy, write your congressman


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## DXT SHOOTER (Sep 9, 2009)

nodog said:


> I think they go hand in hand. There is a right way to be right and a wrong way to be right.
> 
> Nothing wrong with a warning where one is deserved.


I agree. There is nothing wrong with a warning where one is deserved. But being right is safe for LEO's. These officers may have rather issued a warning, but they had conducted this investigation not knowing the circumstances of the OP. After investing the time/effort to complete the investigation, it would be hard to explain a verbal warning, especially if a law was broken. I'm sure these LEO's sympathize with the OP, but they have to do their jobs, even if it's not the most pleasant thing they've done.

If they had issued a warning, there would be folks on here saying they were derelict in their duty, wasted tax payers money etc.... The safest and best option was to do what they did. I think the cut the OP a break by not throwing him in the county jail, or calling in federal agents to take up where they had to leave off. It could have been A LOT worse.


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## 50bowhunter (Aug 17, 2008)

MarksExtra said:


> two comments: First; you should already know the answer to your first question. If you can't see that there are times that you should use discretion, you should quit your day job. No offense.
> 
> Second: Unfortunately you are so right. It's very rare when someone thinks they deserve to be charged....and the way you put it, is even better said.


I never said said that people don't deserve a warning. What I am trying to say is that if I let every person go with a warning that didn't have a job or was down on their luck, I would have some explaining to do as to why my production was cut in half.


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