# How do I best tune new Carbon Impact Super Club Arrows?



## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I need some advice. I bought 6 Carbon Impact Super Club Arrows 20/30. They come with vanes and nocks installed and measure 30 1/2 inches. The points are brass and they are the break-off type so that they can be adjusted.
What would you do to figure out the best tune for my 32# finger release bow? I was going to take the vanes off one arrow and put together that arrow at full length with the uncut tip. Then do the same to another arrow with vanes on. Then shoot the two and see what happens. I suspect that I will need to cut the arrows some and I was planning to use my angle grinder to do that. I also bought a fletching jig to re-attach the vanes when I figure the correct combination of arrow length and tip weight. Anyone with experience using these arrows can suggest how to temporarily glue the tips so I can easily test the different configurations? I would like to keep the arrow as light as possible to use for longer distances.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I hate to tell you but those arrows will most likely be too stiff for your bow. Maybe not, but I suspect so.

For the points, just clean the inside of the shaft well (alcohol works for this, on a Q-tip) and use the Bohning blue low-temp hot melt glue.


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

John, I'm curious, why would you say too stiff? The arrow's rating is between 20 and 30lbs, and he's shooting 32#. It would seem to me they'd be too weak?

Shinken, there are a couple of ways that you can dynamically weaken arrows, if that's what they need.....

change the BH - likely you'll shorten it
change the plunger's spring tension - I forget if it's to weaken or increase the tension, easy to look it up
shoot a super light string, 10 strands, tied on nock, minimal serving
increase the tip weight which will also increase FOC - a good thing
shoot very lite vanes as possible - SpinWings or VanTec 1.75" FITA vanes

I've probably left something out, but someone will probably add to the list

btw, I did all these things to a set of arrows and increased their speed by about 4% hoping that will help me reach 60m faster/flatter


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The manufacturer's LABEL is 20-30 lbs. That's got nothing (in this case) to do with the actual spine measurement of that particular arrow. MAYBE if we were talking compounds here, it would be close. But for a recurve archer, those are going to be stiff at 32#, I believe. But again, maybe not. Shoot them and see.


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

Take my comments with a very large grain of salt (salt lick size, perhaps), as I'm a new archer (about 7 months):

I got some 20/30's for my setup, and they bareshaft fairly well for my skill when I use by 30# limbs (31# at my fingers for my draw length of 29.25 inches). For my 22# limbs (23# on my fingers), they are too stiff.

Today I got my order of 15/25's from lancaster, and though I haven't had time to shoot much (only about 50 arrows today due to being too busy for fun), they "feel" better, and are grouping better on my 22# limbs.

There's several threads on these arrows, with plenty of good info from Limbwalker, TheOldNewbie, and others. A forum search should bring them up (sorry - no time to find the links!).


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

I think that the 20/30 will be OK at 32# if left full length, perhaps cut down to 29-29.5" might even be better. They are an 820 spine. I'm basing this on extrapolation of the Easton youth arrow chart for Carbon One's and Viper1's recommendation for aluminum arrow spines. Those 2 are close and seem to work pretty well for me.


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## larry tom (Aug 16, 2012)

Interesting thread. I shoot the Super Clubs as well ... 15/25 on a 66 inch bow, 32# limbs, 27.75 inch draw. I think I have them tuned pretty well, but I was thinking they were perhaps a bit under spined (950, according to the techperts at CI). So I was actually thinking of getting some 20/30's just to see if a stiffer arrow would make a difference in my groupings. Larry T.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I will get the hot-melt glue. BTW, how do you apply it? Then I will report back. These arrows already have 1.75" vanes installed.


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

hmmn? 

if they are 820 spined, then I think you should be able to get them to work. I have 850 spined MKIIs and they fly fine at my holding weight of 33lbs, but I am by no means an expert at this.


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## TheOldNewbie (Mar 31, 2012)

Shinken said:


> I will get the hot-melt glue. BTW, how do you apply it? Then I will report back. These arrows already have 1.75" vanes installed.


Here is how I do it. I use the CDM Flitemate Hot Melt Glue Stick, which is also low temp melt glue designed for carbon arrows. I hold the point with small vice grip pliers, just set tight enough to keep the point from falling out when applying the glue. For a heat source, I use a propane torch with a spreader nozzle. Using a normal nozzle causes too high a temp. You can also heat the tip using a gas stove burner, either in the kitchen or preferably with a Coleman stove outside. I work in the garage. I also have a container of cold water at the workbench.

First clean the arrow ID with swabs soaked in 91% alcohol. When the swabs come out clean then run a dry swab in there. Also wipe the shafts of the points with alcohol. Grip the point with the vice grips and hold the shaft in the spreader flame for a few seconds. Then rub the point on the glue stick. If the glue easily flows onto the point shaft it is hot enough. If it is sticky then heat the point for a couple of seconds more. Do this until the glue is liquid. Then heat the point again for about 2 seconds and immediately push it into the arrow. Quickly release the vice grips and press the point into the workbench to fully seat it and then dip the end of the arrow into the cold water to cool it. Give it time to completely cool and then peel the excess glue off the tip to arrow joint. Peel it in the direction of the point, as I have read that peeling it in the direction of the arrow shaft could peel off some carbon fibers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> BTW, how do you apply it?


Surely there is a YouTube tutorial on this by now?


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

TheOldNewbie, thanks for the detailed info on how to do it. 

Here is the follow up:
I put together two arrows full length which happens to be 31 1/4 from nock to end of shaft with full weight point which I measured at 80 grains.
I was shooting split fingers with sight and clicker (which are a new experience for me having only tried this for a couple weeks).
At 20 m I was getting the fletched arrow on target +/- 3 inches. The unfletched arrow consistently hit 6-8 inches to the right and 4-6 inches higher.
I moved to 30 m and adjusted the up/down wheel without touching the left/right wheel. The fletched arrow hit about 3 inches to the right from the 20 m spot and the unflecthed was 12-16" right of the fletched arrow at 30 m and 10-12 higher.
At 40 m the flecthed arrow landed 6" to the right of the 20 m marks and the unflecthed were 20-24 inches to the right and 20" higher from the fletched arrow at 40 m.

What next? I am thinking that my plunger may be set too stiff (just guessing here I am new to this -maybe is the other way around-) but the arrows appear to be weak regardless. Shall I start by lowering the weight of the point or cutting the arrows or making any other modifications to the bow such as brace height or poundage adjustments for the limbs? I want the lighter arrow possible to get to longer distances.


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## Number46 (Dec 26, 2012)

If you don't already have it you should google "Tuning For Tens" and the Easton arrow tuning guide. They address all the things your seeing.


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

yep yep yep what Number46 said - bareshaft testing tells all


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

So I read the paper. I have seen comments were paper tuning was not recommended for finger release bows. But if I follow the bareshaft and walk back tests that I did and if I understand correctly the arrows are weak and the nock is set too low. Changing the nock position is straight forward. How to correct the weak arrows is not as clear to me. What should I do first:
-change the poundage of the limbs? They are 32# limbs and the riser has screws to adjust the tension.
-or would it be better to address the plunger situation first? It looks like I should be stiffening the plunger more (it's already set for center shot) but I already have the spring set pretty tight.
-or would it be better to manipulate the arrows first? change the point weight or length of the arrow...
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## Number46 (Dec 26, 2012)

From what you are saying the arrows seem like they might be a little weak but at this stage it probably doesn't really matter. I'd adjust the nock point and see if you can get the bareshafts to land at the same height as the fletched arrows. Then mess with your plunger until you can hit the center of the target from each of the distances without having to move your sight to the right. If the arrows are really weak you might have some trouble but you'll learn a whole lot about tuning a bow with the arrows. I'd do this before you cut the arrows. You can always change your tuning adjustments back if you don't like them but you can't make your arrows longer after you've cut them. if you have the room on your tiller bolts you could back them out some to make your limbs a little weaker therefore making the arrows behave stiffer in comparison.


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

I reserve the right to be wrong here...

I just got the best tune I've ever been able to achieve today in the three months I've owned my bow by following the Tuning for Tens guide and making lots of mistakes (in the last couple of months). Here's what I learned:

- I don't do the paper tuning (no setup for it)
- Follow Limbwalker's advice to get your bow on plane: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1703779 (This made a world of difference for me - check out the Youtube video grantmac posted somewhere on page 4 or 5)
- TFT has you start with the arrow aligned right down the string. No angle outward from the rest, edge of arrow shaft on outer side of string, etc. Make your plunger as stiff as possible.
- Shoot arrows (I shot three fletched, two bare). I used the bareshafts to correct nock height and diagnose arrow stiffness. Mine turned out to be too stiff, so I played with tightening my limb bolts, adding brace height, and moving the plunger to the forward hole on my riser. The bareshafts were still indicating stiff, but not as bad (still bad, mind you - 6-12 inches away from fletched group).
- Adjust your sight until the fletched group is hitting the target in the center (or in my case, center-ish)
- Now, don't adjust your sight!
- Set your plunger to a medium stiffness
- Set the centershot of your bow so the edge of the arrow shaft near the point is just touching the outside edge of the string blur, keeping your string aligned with your reference(s) on your riser
- Shoot arrows. In my case, the medium setting was causing my groups to hit to the right of target center (I'm a RH archer). I stiffened my plunger, shot more arrows, which hit a smidge to the left. Weakened the plunger a half turn, and boom! Happy groups in the center of the target.

I shoot at 18m in my backyard. This has been one of my best days of solo archery since I started 7 months ago (club stuff is almost always great)! For some reason, the TFT method didn't "click" till today, and by that I mean using a stiff plunger, adjusting the sight, then varying plunger tension to bring the group back to the center. Coupled with Limbwalker's "on plane" adjustments, my bow just sings now. I know my arrows are still too stiff, but the that will have to wait for more archery budget...

I hope you get something to work for you. Take your time, and remember to have fun while you're doing it, even during the frustrating times.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

It's going to be a nice day outside so I will go through the process without touching the arrows and see what I can do. Thank you.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Something to consider before bare shaft testing is whether your Super Clubs are all the same spine. CIs are, from past threads on the topic, totally untested for spine and come straight off the production line with no sorting, hence why they are cheaper.

The set of 15/25s I've got are vary in spine by .14 inches of deflection under a standardized weight whereas my ACCs vary by .01 and my beat up old Platinum Pluses vary by .02, which is a lot wider range than my platinum pluses. I could throw off my bareshaft testing if the bareshaft is an outlier and I spent all my time trying to match it.

Rick McKinney of Carbon Tech has an article about how spine is more important than straightness in carbon arrows :



> *Spine:*
> Spine is probably the most important part of the arrow shaft and the most ignored. I presume the main reason for this is because it is the hardest for a manufacturer to get right and keep consistent. Also, it is one that cannot be measured very easily by the average person...
> Many companies do not keep very tight tolerances on spine consistency. This causes all types of problems for the archer and the dealer. Of course, since most archers are not very good or accurate, they do not realize that the arrow is making them look even worse than what they really are. According to tests that I have been involved with, the tighter the spine tolerances the more accurate the arrows become. Keeping them .005" plus or minus is what was set years ago with aluminum arrows and their accuracy has been proven over the years. *Some companies have spine deviations of over .040" plus or minus! Thus, it would be like putting spines of a 2113, 2116 and 2119 all in one group of arrows and expect them to shoot well. It will not happen!*


http://www.carbontecharrows.com/main/arrow-spine-weight-and-straightness/

Unfortunately, what Rick is saying is that with .14 inches of variation in spine (3.5x the .04" he decries as being bad) the SuperClubs I have will not shoot well. Granted, when Rick McKinney says "shoot well" he has very high standards, as in holding gold at 90M  , so the SCs may be just fine for less exacting shooting. Even so, I was a little surprised at the variance. Well, that and how stiff they are for the marked 15 to 25 pound recommended bow range.


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

Warbow, this is a good point, and your data on spine variance is interesting. In a different thread (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1814687&highlight=variation+spine) the variability in spine for the CI SC was discussed, and the range didn't seem as high as your measurements (this could be an apples-to-oranges comparison though, since testing methods aren't the same). I wonder if manufacturing has changed a bit.

Nevertheless, we should be careful in expecting too much from these arrows in terms of fine tuning. I've decided that the bareshafting of these arrows isn't really useful to me, especially at my (low) skill level. Still, I like learning new things, and seeing how adjustments to my bow affect both fletched and bare shafts. The comparison of bare to fletched shafts may be misleading, but comparisons in bareshaft results after changes to tune (though much harder to track - you should see my target face pencil markings) do give me a indication of how the dynamic spine of the arrows is changing in response to my fiddling around.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Topquark said:


> Warbow, this is a good point, and your data on spine variance is interesting. In a different thread (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1814687&highlight=variation+spine) the variability in spine for the CI SC was discussed, and the range didn't seem as high as your measurements (this could be an apples-to-oranges comparison though, since testing methods aren't the same). I wonder if manufacturing has changed a bit.


Dunno. But you are right about the testing methods being different. I'm using an old Flight-Rite spine tester, the Cadillac of spine testers  , but it is based on the older 26 inch span commonly still referred to for spining wood arrows not the newer 28 inch span used by modern manufacturers. It's why I mentioned the variation not the absolute deflections. However, that shorter span should give less range of deflection than testing on a 28 span spine tester not more.

I should add something else, which is that a .14 inch variation in deflection is well within the five pound spine group that most sets of woodies are sorted into. So the SCs are much more consistent than many of the wood arrows I've shot well with. But it is kind of sad that I'm having to excuse them by comparing the tolerances to wood instead of other carbons or aluminum :dontknow: Also, the Fight-Rite says the 15/25s spine at 30 pounds!

And while RM might note that a variation of .04 is bad for him, I'm pretty sure nobody is going to use the 15/25s to try to shoot 90M. (I should say, shoot 90M _accurately_. Somebody is going to clout shoot these suckers 90M--might be me... :tongue: )


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I see. So the spine variability may come into play here coupled with my poor shooting abilities. Nevertheless, here is the next chapter on the saga.
Following Topquark's recommendations I backed off half a turn on the limb poundage adjustments for both limbs. Went to set centershot (as in dead center with the string) and noticed that the limbs/string were crooked or tilted. The riser has sideways adjustments based on moving 2 washers from one side to the other. It took some trial and error but I finally got the string aligned to the center although not perfectly on plane (I am not sure how to get that fully corrected). Installed the stiff plunger and adjusted it to centershot (dead center to the arrow). Went to shoot and improvements were noticeable: the nock is now level without having had to move the nock itself. The fletched and unfletched arrows appear to be grouping at 20 m although I must admit that there was quite a bit of variability in how the unflecthed arrows grouped (I assumed this is my poor form). I then sighted the arrows to hit the target center and switched to a medium spring with medium tension in the plunger and set the plunger to centershot (this time with the arrow's right side touching the string on the left side). I did not change the sight position as advised above. The arrows hit to the right and the unfletched arrows even further to the right whereas before they were sort of grouping. I added some tension to the spring (half turn) and the flecthed moved in closer to the target's center and so did the unflecthed ones but remained further to the right. A bit more tension on the spring (1/4 turn) and the fletched arrows hit the target's center as with the stiff plunger but the unfletched were 6 inches to the right. As I walked back to 30 m without touching the right/left sight adjustment only the up/down, the fletched arrows were 2 inches to the right from the 20 m and the unflecthed were 10" right. This got even worse (doubled) at 40 m. So it looks like the arrows are still weak and the plunger might need to be made a little stiffer yet. Should I go back and take off another half turn from the limb poundage and re-do the shooting?


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

Shinken,

your easiest and cheapest way to change the arrows' weakness is to reduce the bow's draw weight. This is will have a much greater influence on bringing the bareshaft and fletched arrows together, then, then, then, adjust the pushbutton's spring tension to tighten the two groups together. Changing the draw weight will have a much greater effect than a pushbutton's spring tension; especially, as you continue to shoot longer and longer distances, they will continue to spread with just pushbutton spring adjustments, then it'll be wrong at shorter distance. You'll just keep chasing your tail until you change your draweight.

I would suggest that you put your pushbutton's spring back to a medium setting and take a full turn out of your limbs. Then do you're testing again.

Other things you can do: 

If your not already there, cut your arrows to "clicker length". Eventually you are going to shoot a clicker, and when you do you are going to need them at "clicker length" so if they are not already there, cut them, or you'll just get to re-tune when you do cut them to "clicker length" 

I don't know if Super Club arrows can take pin nocks, but any weight you can add to the rear of the arrow, will increase the arrows dynamic spine. The same goes for a heavier string. I don't know how many strands are in your current string but a string with more strands and made with longer and heavier serving will also help.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Topquark said:


> I reserve the right to be wrong here...
> 
> I just got the best tune I've ever been able to achieve today in the three months I've owned my bow by following the Tuning for Tens guide and making lots of mistakes (in the last couple of months). Here's what I learned:
> 
> ...


Post of the week right there.

I SOOOOO wish more people would just work through this process. You can read, and read, and read some more about tuning, but until YOU YOURSELF work through this process, you won't fully understand what you're doing. And remember, this is just the beginning!


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

Limbwalker, thanks for the comment.

Let me add that at the beginning I was fairly fearful of making changes to my bow, but in the end it turned out there was nothing I could do that wasn't reversible. For me, taking good notes of the changes I was making and measuring everything carefully helped a lot (my day job is teaching and doing physics). Were there frustrating times? Sure! There was never a, "Oh no... did I just do something that will cost me oodles of $$$?" (like, say, when I'm fixing computers/lab equipment and just snapped off a connector). 

Maybe I was lucky, but the bow and associated tools/equipment were much more forgiving than say woodworking, tile work, or auto repair (all of which I have done and still do).

Go slow, take time to learn how the bow responds to the changes you make, and above all, remember the fun!


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks all. I think I'm very close now. At least as close as I need to be under my current shooting form.
I backed up 1 full turn of the limbs' poundage. These resulted in the arrows being a bit stiff this time but not much. About 4" to the left which was easily adjustable with the plunger. I walked back from 20 m to 30 and 40 and the fletched arrows continued to stay centered. Even at 50 m. The unflecthed were grouping in the horizontal axis (left to right) with the fletched arrows within 2" and the only weird thing is that on the vertical axis at 20 m the unflecthed arrows are hitting 2" below the flecthed ones and as I walk back the unflecthed arrows move up and end up hitting 10" above the flecthed ones as I reached 50 m. I tried to set the nock to a happy place in the middle but I can not explain these behavior of the arrows unless the problem is with the shooter.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wait a minute. You teach Physics, I'm a wildlife biologist, and I'm helping YOU tune a bow? Something just ain't right about that... LOL!


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

"experience is a great equalizer"

I have a Phd in Quantum Physics (theoretical book stuff), and that didn't mean squat till I dived in the world of archery, gaining my own experience along the way.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Just a quick update from another thread:

Previously there was talk in a thread here that the Super Club arrows are untested, which I repeated in my post above. However, new poster droy reports that Jenifer ( [email protected] ) at Carbon Impact says this:



> Doug,
> *I can assure you that all our arrows are tested for weight and spine on each production run and we make sure that they are up to spec’s.* As for the spine of the Super club 30/40 they are .630” and the Super Club 40/50 is .500”. I hope this help with your decision to buy our products.
> Jennifer


Thought I note it doesn't specifically say tested and _sorted_. Sounds more like they just test to make sure the run is within specs. But I can't be sure from just that quote. :dontknow:


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