# Determining True Need for Stabilizer



## elkscout (Oct 11, 2014)

I would recommend doing a test to see which one shoots the tightest groups. Shoot a few shots record the results with and without the stab.Also take a look at your pin float with and without them.see which shoots best according to the results.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk


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## chasemukluk (Jun 10, 2008)

To be honest, you probably don't have enough length or weight on them to make a difference. 

On my hunting set up, I shoot around 14 ozs. Much less jumpy or stabby pin movement for me with the extra ounces. Since I am a tree stand Hunter I don't really care about the extra weight. It hasn't bugged me on the mile and 1.5 mile hikes in and out. If I was out west, I'd probably go lighter. 

On my target set up, I shoot 17ozs, but thinking about going higher. Just need to fork up the money to buy some more weights.


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## JFerg3 (Aug 24, 2013)

If you do not notice a difference, I might would just go with a shorter, lighter, more vibration dampening type of stabilizer.


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## zachvu (Jun 16, 2015)

I think I've got it pretty dialed... I just needed more weight on the back end! I think between the bow I have and extended dovetail I was just too heavy out front to properly balance. I think it's getting to where I want it to be.


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

The rest and D-Loop may not be tuned as well as you think they are. Also, here is some information about stabilizers.
And never be too quick to pass judgment on a new accessory. Use it for a few days to get the feel of it.

*The attributes of a forgiving bow:* 
Low power, Heavy, Well balanced, Weight mounted a ways from the center of mass, and Shock dampening accessories.
From your description, your bow has enough of these attributes to be considered forgiving. 
A forgiving bow is difficult to adjust because changes in the alignment seem to make almost no difference. 
On a misaligned forgiving bow, the unwanted “launch torque” is still there; the bow is just is more resistive to it.

*The rest and D-Loop adjustment*
The correct “rest and D-Loop” alignment is determined purely by the launch power's thrust vector. A vector is a measured force in a specified direction. This vector is created between a forced separation facilitated by the draw, and the arrow’s mass acting against the bow's weight distribution and the hold, whereas the draw’s stored energy is transferred into the arrow’s launch. When the “rest and D-Loop” are adjusted correctly, the arrow is held in their adjustment plain at the center of the bow's mass (weight) so that the rest has no influence on an arrows trajectory.

*A long stabilizer:*
Most of the horizontal weight on a compound bow is close to the center of mass. A long stabilizer fixes this problem by putting a weight, and shock dampening material, in front and a ways away from the center of mass. It not only improves horizontal torque resistance by making quick twisting movements a great deal more difficult, it also improves vertical torque resistance and improves aiming by slowing down corrective movements. Most stabilizers have an affective shock absorbing fetcher on them that also helps reduce torque, but some stabilizers are used only to balance the bow.

*A balancing system:*
On a right handed bow, the right side of the bow weighs a lot more than the left side. A balancing system does add weight to the bow, but many archers use a counter balance weight. Although Changes in this system directly impact the D-Loop and rest adjustment, that is not its purpose. A balancing weight system adjusts the center of mass of the bow to where the bow stays upright in your hand naturally. Having to twist your hold to keep the bow upright applies unwanted torque to the release. Just like the stabilizer, to balance your bow, the more weight you add and the farther it is from the center of mass, the more forgiving your bow will become (on that plain). For hunting; the ideal system adds as little weight as possible to achieve a good balance. For target bows; The larger the weight is and the farther the weight is from the center of mass, the more it will resist changes in movement and momentum. For this reason, the weight of the limbs and cams inherently makes compound bows more forgiving in the vertical direction (Top to bottom). A Heavy bow is also easier to aim because the extra weight makes corrective aiming movements more sluggish and predictable.


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## zachvu (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks Luke Cool! So I've got this bow to where it's balancing well in my hand, and holds very well on target. What is my next step to determine whether or not the rest and loop are truly in alignment or not??


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

zachvu said:


> Thanks Luke Cool! So I've got this bow to where it's balancing well in my hand, and holds very well on target. What is my next step to determine whether or not the rest and loop are truly in alignment or not??


Great question!!
As the arrow leaves the knock, if the rest or D-Loop is misaligned, the cable rod (and the knock) will jump in the direction of the misalignment. This is called “launch torque”. The bow does this because the arrow pushes on the bow just as hard as the bow pushes the arrow. During a release, on a correctly adjusted bow, the bow will jump straight back.

When adjusting the rest, there is a point in the adjustment to the right where the forces are so intense that the bow will noticeably begin to jump to the left, and tare the paper to the right. Note this point. There is also a point to the left where the bow will noticeably start to jump to the right, and tare the paper to the left the same amount. Note this point too. Now, adjust the rest to a point that is half way in between the two points you noted. Do the same procedure on the D-Loop adjustment. The D-Loop is more difficult. First wrap some thick serving on the string (three layers thick) a half of an inch below the D-Loop; this is for temporary use. With a ruler, use this base as you take notes and keep track of the D-Loops movements till you find the two jump points. Then, just like the rest, adjust the D-Loop to a point that is half way in between the two points you noted. This will take a while. If you know someone that can help you, have them watch the bow while you shoot a few arrows and tell you how it jumps. For the rest adjustment, they can see the jump better when they stand behind you.


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

A launch through a poorly adjusted rest causes a quick twisting movement, 
and a launch from a poorly adjusted D-loop causes a quick unequal movement in the limbs (one will jump back more than the other). 
For the rest adjustment, they can see the quick twisting movement better when they stand behind you. 
And for the D-loop, from the side, they can see one limb will jump back more than the other.

Also look at six arrows after you shoot them into the target. 
Misalignment torque will make the arrows wobble as they fly through the air and then stick in the target randomly crooked.
When all of the arrows are parallel when you look at them from above, The rest is very close to being correct. 
When all of the arrows are parallel when you look at them from the side, The D-Loop is very close to being correct.
If your target has lumps in it, it will mess up this test. The target has to be uniformly dense.


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

The rest is easy. If you did a good job balancing the bow, the rest will be very close to the center of the bow. 
The balancing system on mine is similar to yours. My rest is dead-on the center.
Without the balancing system, the rest will normally need to be closer to the riser (1/16/ to 1/4 of an inch) from center. 

Because the center of mass on most bows (including mine) is a little low, the D-Loop needs to be a little high.
My bow is a little on the heavy side. Light bows are farther up than this.

This is on a PSE BM32


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## b-a-maniak (Apr 19, 2014)

This is a current thread in the F.I.T.A, Collegiate, J.O.A.D forum.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3556298


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

b-a-maniak said:


> This is a current thread in the F.I.T.A, Collegiate, J.O.A.D forum.
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3556298


Good video, but just adding weight does the same thing.
The more weight you add and the farther it is from the center of mass, the greater the effect you saw in the video.
This is simple physics. Look at a pendulum. 
If you add weight to it, it slows down. 
If you move the weight farther from the pivot point, it slows down more drastically.
On a compound bow, you get the same effect when you add weight, but especially if you move this weight a distance from the vertical center.
This video shows what happens when aiming. Someone in the thread ask "what does the stabilizer do while the bow is accelerating the arrow?"
That's easy to answer, it stabilizes the bow.
As the bow is accelerating the arrow, if the rest or D-Loop is misaligned, the cable rod (and the knock) will jump in the direction of the misalignment. This is called “launch torque”. The bow does this because the arrow pushes on the bow just as hard as the bow pushes the arrow. If the draw force’s thrust vector is perfectly centered behind the arrow, there will be no launch torque. A launch through a poorly adjusted rest causes a quick twisting movement, and a launch from a poorly adjusted D-loop causes a quick unequal movement in the limbs (one will jump back more than the other). The back end of the arrow will be pushed in that direction as it leaves the string. During a release, on a correctly adjusted bow, the bow will jump straight back. 

Most of the horizontal weight on a compound bow is close to the center of mass. A long stabilizer fixes this problem by putting a weight, and shock dampening material, in front and a ways away from the center of mass. It not only improves horizontal torque resistance by making quick twisting movements a great deal more difficult, it dampens the shock of the jump caused by the acceleration. In short, a stabilizer helps prevent torque caused by your hold and imperfections in the "D-Loop and rest" alignment, and it gives the arrow a more solid base to launch from.


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## zachvu (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks again Luke Cool! I have noticed a slight variation in arrow angle lately, but didn't think that changing stabilizers and weight would have affected it that much. I'll have to get the balance dialed absolute and check the others once the new strings get here!


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## Luke Cool (Oct 16, 2015)

Remember; The launch vector always goes directly though the center of mass of the bow. It's that simple.
At 20 yards, a little change is normally not a big deal. Longer ranges is where you will see the difference.
The Bee Stinger 10.8 balancing kit is an excellent piece of equipment, It will serve you well.
I'm glad I could help. Good luck!!!


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## zachvu (Jun 16, 2015)

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

zachvu said:


> I somewhat recently purchased the stab setup, and haven't noticed any improvement in my scores, stability, etc. I tuned everything up to where it sat well balanced at full draw, but it doesn't seem any more steady than without any stabilizer at all.
> 
> Thoughts??


Some thoughts:

Stabilizers might be the most over engineered accessory you can hang on a bow, based on 50+ years of spots, 3D, hunting. Maybe about 50 different stabilizers. (Or so).

The rubber goodies do soak up vibration, and reduce noise a tad.
Balance is achieved by length/mass. 
Once the bow balances to your liking, the stabilizer reduces rotation in the horizontal/vertical plane on release. 

B Stinger's are excellent. I have a couple. And, a couple Doinkers, Hoyt/Doinkers, NAP's. ( I keep 6 bows up and running at all times). In my modest selection, they all work about the same. None of them will land a arrow in the spot, when I flinch, punch, or fail to aim at the center of a spot.


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