# NRA bow members



## steadyeddie

OK we know that the Peta and others want to take our hunting away and by any means possible. So I also know that there are some pure bow only hunters out there and alot of bow and gun hunters, or archers who carry concealed weapons. What I want to know is how many of you support the NRA .


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## orduckhunter

I'm a member


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## wicked1Joe

Always...have been a member...


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## deadly

*Proud Member*

Support the NRA, Ducks Unlimited, Elk Foundation, SCI, Whitetails Unlimited, and several local Consrvation clubs.


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## cptwolverine

I am a member...actually just renewed...


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## Crazy_Boxer

I'm a member.........if you're not, you need to be.


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## txcookie

I am about to start up a NRA sign up thread!


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## AirForceAggie

lifetime


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## dnbnt

*Nra*

I'm in!


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## rjtfroggy

Over 30 years.


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## teflonhunter

Yes sir I am.


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## kingvjack

Was a member, did some research... never will be again.


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## cityhunter346

I'm a member of the NRA and the Westchester County Firearms Owners Association.


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## ButchA

kingvjack said:


> Was a member, did some research... never will be again.


Huh?  Like what... 

I know the NRA membership fees have been accused of paying Wayne LaPierre's multi-million dollar $alary and/or extravagant hunting trips to Africa or somewhere else overseas. Is that what you are implying?


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## SA/RR

Life Member


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## tnfatboy

life member


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## I like Meat

I am a bowhunter first and foremost, I am a NRA supporter 110%, I can and do carry concealed here in my state, I support my 2nd Amendment rights 120%. I do not believe crossguns belong in archery only seasons(except for handicapped) but I will not drop my support for the NRA because they want the damn crossguns......:mg:


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## Slatavus

I am a member.


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## polarbear06

kingvjack said:


> Was a member, did some research... never will be again.



Please share your research. I've done plenty of my own and it convinced me to get off my can and become a lifetime member.


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## OBAN

*yes to the NRA*

I'm a member.


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## varcher

I'm a member.


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## camoman73

Member here!


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## Beastmaster

Life Members for me and my family. 

Pastor Martin Niemoller's poem applies here. If you don't defend RKBA, your bows will be vapor too.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up." 

-Steve


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## UCNYbowhunter

Member here also they are on top of things big time and need our support in contacting members of the senate on both levels.United we stand Divided we fall.


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## longdrawdan

*NRA membership poll*

been a member for more years than i can remember.:mg:


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## WillAdams

Member.

There is some controversy to some people that the NRA perpetuates the anti-gun lobby to ensure controversy and hence their continued existence, and use scare tactics for fund-raising (the recent calls re: H.R. 45, a bill w/ no co-sponsor and minimal support which seems destined to die in committee (again) is one example, or the letter which resulted in George H. Bush's resignation when he was President)

Alternative Organizations include:

JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION
OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP

Gun Owners of America

William


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## Ybuck

PROUD to be a LIFE MEMBER.
Very rarley shoot my guns anymore, but "it's more than guns, its FREEDOM"


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## curtisy

*my membership is there*

:darkbeer:


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## Redclub

Yep I am a member,yes there are a lot of perks and high salaries, but its all we have.
Redclub


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## Yellowfin

Been a member for quite a while, now my whole family is.


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## gimpie

Re-Joined this year.


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## ARCHERYXPERT

I was a member for a couple years. But didnt like all the political garbage that was sent to my house and in theyre magazines. I also dont beleive in alot of the laws they fight for with my dollars. Assault weapons are not needed for hunting and I dont support owning huge caliber assult weapons. I own 7 guns all for hunting and they double for home protection. The NRA has strayed from it original intent and is now nothing but a big buisness that is run by gun mfg.


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## Beastmaster

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Assault weapons are not needed for hunting and I dont support owning huge caliber assult weapons. I own 7 guns all for hunting and they double for home protection.


Would you mind elucidating that a bit further?

If I understand you correctly, you're stating that:

1) The NRA should only support hunting rights
2) you use a rifle for home protection.

With regards to #2 - how do you clear a home with a bolt action rifle?


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## Yellowfin

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Assault weapons are not needed for hunting


 So you believe in

A. Rights limited to hunting
B. Rights limited to "need"
C. A government that can pick and choose what you can and can't own based on arbitrary rules and what it thinks you "need."

And what do you define as "assault weapons"? Something that isn't bolt action? 


> and I dont support owning huge caliber assult weapons.


 .223 and .308 are "huge caliber"? .338 must be a cement truck and .458 must be a virtual planet! 


> I own 7 guns all for hunting and they double for home protection.


 How's that 3-9x40 scope doing for ya at 2am when someone breaks in through your front door 50 feet away when you're half asleep and in your boxers?


> The NRA has strayed from it original intent and is now nothing but a big buisness that is run by gun mfg.


 Oh really? Can you name some gun manufacturers who have 4 million employees? Has anyone seen "Smith and Wesson" on a ballot anywhere up for election?


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## Beastmaster

Yellowfin said:


> ...
> And what do you define as "assault weapons"? Something that isn't bolt action?


Heh. I remember (in the show Wild West Tech or something like that) someone saying that the Henry Repeating Rifle was the original assault weapon.

And...if the pols have it their way, lever action guns will also fall under AWB's as well.

-Steve


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## ARCHERYXPERT

Yellowfin said:


> So you believe in
> 
> A. Rights limited to hunting
> B. Rights limited to "need"
> C. A government that can pick and choose what you can and can't own based on arbitrary rules and what it thinks you "need."
> 
> And what do you define as "assault weapons"? Something that isn't bolt action?
> .223 and .308 are "huge caliber"? .338 must be a cement truck and .458 must be a virtual planet!
> How's that 3-9x40 scope doing for ya at 2am when someone breaks in through your front door 50 feet away when you're half asleep and in your boxers? Oh really? Can you name some gun manufacturers who have 4 million employees? Has anyone seen "Smith and Wesson" on a ballot anywhere up for election?


Your logic is the reason I dont deal with NRA fanatics anymore. If you dont understand that home owners dont need fully auto machine guns and 50 caliber sniper rifles then your not just a hunter fighting for hunting rights. Your one of those guys that belong to a group that dont like our government . Your welcome to leave anytime you want. I hear the Middle east allows all kind of weapons, even Nuclear.


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## ARCHERYXPERT

Beastmaster said:


> Would you mind elucidating that a bit further?
> 
> If I understand you correctly, you're stating that:
> 
> 1) The NRA should only support hunting rights
> 2) you use a rifle for home protection.
> 
> With regards to #2 - how do you clear a home with a bolt action rifle?


Assult weapons as in 50 cal. sniper rifles, fully auto machine guns, weapons that may be issued to soliders. Assult weapons.

How many times have you or anyone else youve known need to CLEAR your home? Lmoa, typical fanatic. Gangs of 8 gangsters storming into your house to steal your big screen, thats why you need a full auto, or just full of it.


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## jace

Im a member but they are the most annoying group of people I have ever known. I hang up on them at least once a week, always on Sunday, when they call and try to get me to renew.


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## Beastmaster

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Assult weapons as in 50 cal. sniper rifles, fully auto machine guns, weapons that may be issued to soliders. Assult weapons.
> 
> How many times have you or anyone else youve known need to CLEAR your home? Lmoa, typical fanatic. Gangs of 8 gangsters storming into your house to steal your big screen, thats why you need a full auto, or just full of it.


As an LEO instructor, I take offense to that remark. I don't piss over the fact that you're an overblown former Navy corpsman who happens to have surface warfare crap along with it. Don't piss over what I happen to have expertise on either.

I also happen to live in the kidnapping and home invasion capital of the world at this time. How DARE you tell me what I CAN AND CANNOT HAVE.

-Steve


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## rattus58

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Your logic is the reason I dont deal with NRA fanatics anymore. If you dont understand that home owners dont need fully auto machine guns and 50 caliber sniper rifles then your not just a hunter fighting for hunting rights. Your one of those guys that belong to a group that dont like our government . Your welcome to leave anytime you want. I hear the Middle east allows all kind of weapons, even Nuclear.



You don't deal with the NRA because you don't believe in the right to own firearms and you don't believe in limited government. Your assertions about the the 50 caliber "fully auto machine guns" show a) how ignorant you are or b) that you will follow any liberal tripe without verification or qualification.

No definition of the types of firearms that Liberal Left Wing Socialists wish to ban has credence EXCEPT FULLY AUTO MACHINE GUNS.

Those wishing to restrict your freedoms will come after your bow next... 

People use high power guns (50 caliber Barrett) for competition shooting at long range. People use other semi-auto firearms for competition shooting at ranges out to 600 yards. People use semi-auto firearms for hunting because they are ACCURATE, LOW RECOIL, AND JUST FUN TO SHOOT. Something I realize that Liberal Left Wing Socialists can't appreciate because they don't have an ability enjoy stuff and so need to meddle and restrict opportunity and recreation of others.

We have a free country, but it's apparent that YOU'D LOVE TO HAVE US living like the third world.... No my friend, you're not one of the NRA and you NEVER HAVE BEEN.... regardless whether you've had a membership or not.


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## Jim C

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> I was a member for a couple years. But didnt like all the political garbage that was sent to my house and in theyre magazines. I also dont beleive in alot of the laws they fight for with my dollars. Assault weapons are not needed for hunting and I dont support owning huge caliber assult weapons. I own 7 guns all for hunting and they double for home protection. The NRA has strayed from it original intent and is now nothing but a big buisness that is run by gun mfg.


You sound Like you have drunk the brady koolaid

what is a large caliber assault weapon?


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## Jim C

rattus58 said:


> You don't deal with the NRA because you don't believe in the right to own firearms and you don't believe in limited government. Your assertions about the the 50 caliber "fully auto machine guns" show a) how ignorant you are or b) that you will follow any liberal tripe without verification or qualification.
> 
> No definition of the types of firearms that Liberal Left Wing Socialists wish to ban has credence EXCEPT FULLY AUTO MACHINE GUNS.
> 
> Those wishing to restrict your freedoms will come after your bow next...
> 
> People use high power guns (50 caliber Barrett) for competition shooting at long range. People use other semi-auto firearms for competition shooting at ranges out to 600 yards. People use semi-auto firearms for hunting because they are ACCURATE, LOW RECOIL, AND JUST FUN TO SHOOT. Something I realize that Liberal Left Wing Socialists can't appreciate because they don't have an ability enjoy stuff and so need to meddle and restrict opportunity and recreation of others.
> 
> We have a free country, but it's apparent that YOU'D LOVE TO HAVE US living like the third world.... No my friend, you're not one of the NRA and you NEVER HAVE BEEN.... regardless whether you've had a membership or not.


Chances are he's in the Postal Union and buys into their politics


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## ARCHERYXPERT

Beastmaster said:


> As an LEO instructor, I take offense to that remark. I don't piss over the fact that you're an overblown former Navy corpsman who happens to have surface warfare crap along with it. Don't piss over what I happen to have expertise on either.
> 
> I also happen to live in the kidnapping and home invasion capital of the world at this time. How DARE you tell me what I CAN AND CANNOT HAVE.
> 
> -Steve


Lol, typical response of the ignorant. You watch to many movies and live in a fantasy world. I dare to tell you because I was ask. And thats SW AND AW thank you. I serviced my country Im not one of these guys who need 20 military weapons at my house to make me feel tuff. Your just a wanna be when your a never was. Im done with this thread now, your name calling instead of a intelligent response is childish and below me.


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## ARCHERYXPERT

Jim C said:


> Chances are he's in the Postal Union and buys into their politics


People love to preach of theyre right to own ANY weapon they want. But belittle anyone who disagress. I OWN guns, just not Assualt weaopns that belong in the military not my neighborhood. Not to mention a Proud Republican that belongs to no unions. You where close though, lol, real close. If you can not understand the difference then your blind and ignorant.


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## Jim C

You appear too stupid to understand that your party calls basic handguns issued to CIVILIAN police departments "assault weapons". Real assault rilfes are class 3 weapons-none made after 1986 are legal for those not employed by law enforcement agencies to own unless they have hard to get Title II licenses and a police purchase request. 

MI carbines-sold by the hundreds of thousands to citizens through the former government agency known as the Department of Civilian Marksmanship are classified as "banned assault weapons" by the McCarthy HR 1022 bill that was reintroduced to congress after the last election. 

If Civilian police officers are issued 17 shot Glock handguns FOR SELF DEFENSE IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT-that means that the GOVERNMENT has determined such pistols are suitable for SELF DEFENSE IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT BY CIVILIANS-so why shouldn't the rest of us be able to own them? same with semi auto Colt AR 15 carbines

You clearly have no concept of the current legislative issues and that in Kalifornia, the two most popular OLYMPIC target pistols were classified as "assault weapons" and banned.


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## Beastmaster

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Lol, typical response of the ignorant. You watch to many movies and live in a fantasy world. I dare to tell you because I was ask. And thats SW AND AW thank you. I serviced my country Im not one of these guys who need 20 military weapons at my house to make me feel tuff. Your just a wanna be when your a never was. Im done with this thread now, your name calling instead of a intelligent response is childish and below me.


Hm. And by you forcing your Surface Warfare and Aircrew ratings on us, that's not childish too?

And in most cases, despite the fact that I'm a former wingwiper, you'd still call me "sir" as well. That's not being tough, that's reality. Which is something you're distinctly lacking.


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## JOEKILLA

Lifer here


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## steadyeddie

*Only in America*



ARCHERYXPERT said:


> I was a member for a couple years. But didnt like all the political garbage that was sent to my house and in theyre magazines. I also dont beleive in alot of the laws they fight for with my dollars. Assault weapons are not needed for hunting and I dont support owning huge caliber assult weapons. I own 7 guns all for hunting and they double for home protection. The NRA has strayed from it original intent and is now nothing but a big buisness that is run by gun mfg.


Aren't you glad that we still have loyal members who support the NRA and all firearms. Jim Zumbo was not thinking and he said he support no assault weapons. Only he was really not thinking to straight and after a talk with Uncle Ted he figured out that all guns needs to be supported. The gun haters are looking for people like you so they can use you to advance their anti-gun program and that is why they went after the assault weapons. You must either be really naive or just not well informed. Who else is going to send out information to let us know who supports the second Amendment, and the right to carry. When they asked the lead commander of the Japenese war machine why then did not keep coming to America after they bombed Pearl Harbor. His reply was no way every home has a one or more guns. That is why we need to always support the second amendment along with the right to carry a concealed weapon. Look at all the countries that got overthrown by leaders after they confiscated all firearms. How did they know who had them simple they had to register them with the government. Watch Red Dawn and it shows how this could happen during a war. If you are just do not want to listen then when it comes time to take your bow and arrows after the guns, then what, it is way to late. Thanks for your reply. 
God Bless you and your family.


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## grnxlt

:darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer:


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## Jim C

The ARC wants to divide and conquer. They want trap shooters to sell out high power rifle shooters in the hope the gun banners won't ban their Perazzis. 

The fact is, once you have made the Faith Based decision that preventing HONEST people from owning one type of gun will reduce crime (those with records, addictions etc cannot legally own ANY FIREARM) you have already drunk the koolaid and have been baptized by sucking on the bubbling bong of stupidity and believe that banning other guns will prevent even more crime.


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## steadyeddie

*Your are an american*



ARCHERYXPERT said:


> Lol, typical response of the ignorant. You watch to many movies and live in a fantasy world. I dare to tell you because I was ask. And thats SW AND AW thank you. I serviced my country Im not one of these guys who need 20 military weapons at my house to make me feel tuff. Your just a wanna be when your a never was. Im done with this thread now, your name calling instead of a intelligent response is childish and below me.


Ok, I sent a nice info earlier to you, and you are or were a corpsman for how long and how many wars did you fight in. You need to go to Washington DC
over the fourth of July and talk to some of the veterans that are left and what they fought for. The good old country boys that already knew how to shoot came in mighty handy in close quarter combat or the jungles. Even today the soldiers who grew up hunting and using stealth are given greater chances to survive in the combat zone, plus today the Army is training with techniques used by those country boys. I went to the first dedication ceremony in DC and videoed and talked to a lot of vets. They did not fight to let our now far left wing socialist republic of the U.S. to take them away. I have served in Vietnam, Honduras, Panama, Desert Storm, and served my country with honor. My family has over 250yrs of military service and we are a proud family. My sons are in the Navy and one is serving with special warfare in Virgina, and he is an independent duty corpsman. Did you get that far or just for the money to go to school and then hop out. My Dad just past away and he was in WWII and Korea on the first ship there, and from WWII he was captured 4 times and either escaped or was liberated. He had trench foot from torture in the hands of the germans, and still went to Korea and why he was a Patriot to the max, and after coming back from Korean War the medical people wanted to cut off his feet and hands they were so badly frozen many times over. But he did not let them and lived with paid till the day he died. So don't tell me or the others about picking on you. You have no ideal what the tough go through for this country and now you want to start letting the left wing radicals take away our right to protect ourselves against all enemies either home or away. You have a super long way to really understand what it means to be an American.


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## Jim C

BTW LIfe member-since I was 18 (30+ years). Bought my wife and my kid life memberships. Also Life member of the ATA, NSSA, NSCA, and USPSA. I also give money to the Second Amendment Foundation.

You are either for people owning guns or you support the Brady thugs.


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## Hemi

I think archeryXpert has a right to his opinion but he is totally ignorant to all of the facts on what will be called an assault weapon. 
AXP, You better wake up and smell the roses!! 

I'm a long-time member of the NRA!!!


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## Jim C

Hemi said:


> I think archeryXpert has a right to his opinion but he is totally ignorant to all of the facts on what will be called an assault weapon.
> AXP, You better wake up and smell the roses!!
> 
> I'm a long-time member of the NRA!!!


Wise you are

Yoda


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## Stringwacker

Just dropped my NRA membership after 30 years this year. I contributed thousands of dollars over the years to the NRA but I will not have my own organization (that I supported faithfully for three decades) work against my interest in it's promotion of crossbows in the archery season.

While I respect an opposing viewpoint on both the NRA and crossbow issue...I will support an alternative gun ownership organization as soon as I can find one that I want to support. I will stay in the 2nd amendment fight...but not with the NRA as long as they continue to stray from it's core competency.


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## Jim C

Stringwacker said:


> Just dropped my NRA membership after 30 years this year. I contributed thousands of dollars over the years to the NRA but I will not have my own organization (that I supported faithfully for three decades) work against my interest in it's promotion of crossbows in the archery season.
> 
> While I respect an opposing viewpoint on both the NRA and crossbow issue...I will support an alternative gun ownership organization as soon as I can find one that I want to support. I will stay in the 2nd amendment fight...but not with the NRA as long as they continue to stray from it's core competency.


I find that just plain silly.


Xbows don't hurt anyone. That's as stupid as a trap shooter dropping out because the NRA won't sell high power semi auto rifle shooters down the river to appease gun banners

crossbows are no more efficient than compounds and any compound archer who whines about crossbows is a clown in my book given compounds had the exact same rants directed at them 35 years ago


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## bow111

Crazy_Boxer said:


> I'm a member.........if you're not, you need to be.


x 2


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## Stringwacker

Jim C said:


> I find that just plain silly.
> 
> 
> Xbows don't hurt anyone. That's as stupid as a trap shooter dropping out because the NRA won't sell high power semi auto rifle shooters down the river to appease gun banners
> 
> crossbows are no more efficient than compounds and any compound archer who whines about crossbows is a clown in my book given compounds had the exact same rants directed at them 35 years ago


Sorry that my view point is so silly and stupid. I'll continue to respect yours even against people that might says crossbow users are lazy or freeloaders. I feel neither statements are true. I'm amazed at the vile things normally civil people in everyday life say to each other in a forum such as this.

Yet how people feel about any issue (NRA or otherwise) is uniquely personal and at the end of the day maybe how they feel about something is much more important than why...especially when decisions are being made by the electorate.


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## sudol2007

rattus58, amen. im a life member


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## Jim C

Stringwacker said:


> Sorry that my view point is so silly and stupid. I'll continue to respect yours even against people that might says crossbow users are lazy or freeloaders. I feel neither statements are true. I'm amazed at the vile things normally civil people in everyday life say to each other in a forum such as this.
> 
> Yet how people feel about any issue (NRA or otherwise) is uniquely personal and at the end of the day maybe how they feel about something is much more important than why...especially when decisions are being made by the electorate.


PETA and Sarah Brady love that sort of attitude-that you are willing to stop supporting the most effective pro gun organization because you don't want to share "your" woods with crossbow archers. BTW If you aren't using a trad bow with wood arrows but rather a compound with a release, whining about crossbows is pathetic.


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## Stringwacker

Jim C said:


> PETA and Sarah Brady love that sort of attitude-that you are willing to stop supporting the most effective pro gun organization because you don't want to share "your" woods with crossbow archers. BTW If you aren't using a trad bow with wood arrows but rather a compound with a release, whining about crossbows is pathetic.


Jim I have to commend you on your zeal to support your side of an issue. While I don't neccesarily agree with some of the things you say, no one can accuse you of being a fence sitter

I suppose you can give me just a little slack on the crossbow issue because I'm one of those guys who saw the compound bow come on the scene and became legal in all 50 states in just 5 years. However, I just stuck with my recurve and wood arrows all these years. My perception of compounds isn't bad, I saw where they allowed a lot of elderly, women and children to become good archers. Even my son killed his first bow deer at 9 with one so I see a lot of good. They have changed a great deal over the years but the archer still has to load the weapon with his own strength. However, I always had a belief that the compound wouldn't stay checked and in time would likely to lead to something else. Kind of that entire "give an inch and take a yard thing" I suppose. Seems as a observer that the crossbow folks really like to use the compound to a stepping stone to what they want legal too. Kind of makes a fellow wonder who's gonna feel left out once the crossbow is legalized. Probably pistol shooters...who knows. Biologically if the resource can stand the pressure someone will take the place of the crossbow users with the choice argument. Of course, I'm silly and stupid (just barely missed being a clown by nature of shooting a recurve with wood arrows:mg but I always thought over the last 38 years of bowhunting that anybody had a choice to hunt or not...just based on desire alone. I wasn't aware it was dependent upon a weapon choice.

Regardless, I would like to ask you a question. You hunt in a state that allows crossbows. Seems to had very few if any problems since the 70's when it was legalized. 
You have short gun season. Let say the the Ohio DNR decides that it wants more participation and decides to allow pistols and flintlock rifles in the formerly archery season. Biologically lets assume it does no harm to the resource. It a great example of choice, but at the detriment of the 'only' aspect of an archery season. On one hand you still get to hunt with whatever bow you want, yet on the other hand everything you've experianced in archery seasons past has changed at least in context of environment. How would you feel about that? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer...just curious as to whether the desire of an archery season's existence can trump the debate for individual weapon choice. It's not likely to happen in Ohio anytime soon, but it's already happening in the south to a growing degree. The "sharing of the woods" viewpoint is pretty stale where I'm from because crossbow legalization in the surrounding states has seen less hunters hit the woods...not more. I wish I could explain it, but I have no idea why. The same folks that want a crossbow seem to be the same folks that want to use a rifle. Not fact at all..just a personal evaluation.

As far as the NRA issue. Having been such a faithful member for years it's not really something that I'm proud to do. Yet, as I said I'll stay in the hunt but with an organization that will stick to a second amendment agenda. Both of us should agree that a few thousand bowhunters dropping out isn't likely a big deal to the NRA. If it was, they would have never divided their ranks.

Cheers
Mark


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## Jim C

I give you credit for a rational well reasoned argument. My hat's off to you on that Mark. So much better argued than most of the stuff I have seen

MOre bowhunters good-in Ohio we have more due to Xbows

less bowhunters Bad.


No one has ever been able to demonstrate why crossbows should be excluded while compounds are allowed. 


and in Ohio there is absolutely no evidence that crossbow hunters are less ethical or safety conscious or law abiding than compound hunters.


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## Stringwacker

Jim C said:


> I give you credit for a rational well reasoned argument. My hat's off to you on that Mark. So much better argued than most of the stuff I have seen
> 
> MOre bowhunters good-in Ohio we have more due to Xbows
> 
> less bowhunters Bad.
> 
> 
> No one has ever been able to demonstrate why crossbows should be excluded while compounds are allowed.
> 
> 
> and in Ohio there is absolutely no evidence that crossbow hunters are less ethical or safety conscious or law abiding than compound hunters.



Jim, I appreciate the kind words. I believe that we can have different ideas and still be bowhunters and archers. America is a great place because of it's diversity of ideas as much as anything else.

I belong to all those dreaded organizations that crossbow folks tend to depise. Yet I'm a bit of a moderate as I could never quite understand why some people would call a crossbow hunter lazy... yet the crossbowman works harder and puts more into what he enjoys than a firearm user who is never brought into the discussion. Now understand I'm not saying the firearm hunter is bad...just making a point that there is often a double standard used by advocates of my position. I actually worked to make crossbows legal for the 2.5 to 3 month long either sex gun season in 2005 successfully.

I'm in a state that is polar opposite to the midwest. We have an incredibly long gun (rifle) season with a 6 week archery season. 8 deer limit with no tagging system. The average hunter takes about 2 deer per year and some take 25 (without a tagging system to keep things in check.) The state bowhunting organization fights like crazy to keep the archery season from being swallowed up by larger and more active user groups who see the archery season as an opportunity for more weapon choice. We have recently approved single shot centerfire rifles for 'muzzleloader' season and every year bills are filed to dramatically shorten the archery season to allow other weapon choices. In many ways, the crossbow is rarely an issue here because the stakes have moved well beyond that. It's a hard concept to grasp if your in an 'archery' state vs a 'gun' state, but when the need for a controlled harvest goes away...so does your solid justification for an archery season of any kind. Relaxing any restriction just creates a rabid fever by users to ask for even more. "Choice' rules. So you can see that I have a dimmer view of choice than perhaps most others. I'm a bowhunter first...always have been.

The point of all of this (Volume II) is that I don't think crossbow legalization in my state would create many problems in the short term other than social issues. Yet, if I were to be totally honest my disfavor of the weapon in archery season is rooted in a fear that it leads to something else other than archery. Sort of like using the compound bow to justify the legalization of a crossbow. Rather than irrational fear, I actually watched the state's primitive weapon season implode due to the constant demand for choice and less restrictions each year. There was no safe harbor in the greater numbers of primitive weapon hunters it was generating because the new 'recruits' had much more empathy with their firearms than their new "primitive weapons". The belch of smoke has long left the Mississippi woods and many, many hunters wish they could have it back the way it was before they become self inflicted victims of relentless innovation and user demand for change.

So in that respect rest my concerns with the crossbow and a NRA push to get the final nails in the coffin. Hopefully it just a concern that I have overblown. I reserve the right to be wrong. Yet, having watched something very similar happen in the very recent past...history does tend to repeat itself.

It seems logical to me to at least give some consideration to the thought that the crossbow may not be a one size fits all weapon. It's entirely possible that the weapon could be a Godsend to one state and the grease for the slippery slope of another. I gather that you are very knowledgable about the issue so you already know that there are states that have had hunter declines from day one of crossbow legalization and other states that have had archery seasons shortened since the crossbow was legalized.

I'm glad it works for you guys in Ohio and as I alluded before...it's always good to see people such as yourself who have a passion for what they believe.


----------



## WillAdams

Isn't the complaint re: crossbows that they don't have to be drawn in the presence of the game?

For my part, I think there should be more compartmentalization/ division of the seasons so that it's progressive w/ some overlap where appropriate.

But really, isn't anything that gets more people hunting good?

William


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## Jim C

WillAdams said:


> Isn't the complaint re: crossbows that they don't have to be drawn in the presence of the game?
> 
> For my part, I think there should be more compartmentalization/ division of the seasons so that it's progressive w/ some overlap where appropriate.
> 
> But really, isn't anything that gets more people hunting good?
> 
> William



that's something the antis made up to justify their claims

we did a study a few years ago-we put a camera on the head of a McKenzie to replicate a deer. We had someone in a tree stand 15 yards away. 

You'd raise your compound and draw or raise your crossbow and aim. Either way it was easy to see if the camera was pointed at the tree stand. The amount of movement was not much different though


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## BigBirdVA

Jim C said:


> that's something the antis made up to justify their claims
> 
> we did a study a few years ago-we put a camera on the head of a McKenzie to replicate a deer. We had someone in a tree stand 15 yards away.
> 
> You'd raise your compound and draw or raise your crossbow and aim. Either way it was easy to see if the camera was pointed at the tree stand. The amount of movement was not much different though


Try not to mix facts in on a good "I hate" thread. You how mad they get when you do that.


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## rattus58

*Crossbows, Compounds, Recurves, and auto's*

IN MY OPINION... the arguments against crossbows, semi-auto's, and the like all fall into the same basic pattern and legitimacy, and that is one of irrational rhetoric and nothing to support it from a pragmatic point of view.

There is nothing to support not having crossbows in an archery season, and as others have elequently said already, if you can allow a compound in the season you have NO STANDING to argue against the crossbow..... We're talking hunting, not target shooting. We're talking man against beast, not man against a clock, against competition, or some kind of score. Hunting with a semi-automatic anything is nothing more than a choice. Shooting ANYTHING accurately requires SKILL and TECHNIQUE.

What possible difference can it make what a piece of equipment LOOKS LIKE. Single shot versus semi-auto is no different an argument than compound versus crossbow... though I BELIEVE the argument should be RECURVE VERSUS THE REST.... and isn't it funny.... THE TRADITIONAL GUYS ARE NOT THE ONES WHINING.... The compound crowd wants their advantage but don't want to share and if you don't think that game departments aren't getting tired of it, look around you.

Personally, if hunters are going to whine about equipment, then I'm all for a single season, bring whatever you want to the party. There is only one legitimate beef that hunters should have and that is with the management of their wildlife.

If you gun hunt, then if you want to have a gun season, fine, but if you want exclusivity, be prepared to justify why you should have special privilages. Archery is no different, if we have a set aside archery season or area, accept it and be grateful, but the minute you try to EXCLUDE others, expect those such as myself to abandon your cause. 

We have NO PLACE FOR SELF CENTERED SELFISHNESS in the hunting community. What we need is solidarity. Trust me... if you're not with me, you're agin me and on the side of the anti's. Opinions are great, actions are specific. If you protest the crossbow, you turn another against you, and when your turn comes up at the firing line, DO NOT EXPECT THEM TO HELP YOU. When it comes to crossbows, for example, when they ask for inclusion, WELCOME IT... don't deny them unless you are willing to give them their own season that is just as attractive as your own... DON'T INSULT THEM by saying hunt in a muzzleloader season.

Hunters have ACCUMULATED NO RIGHTS. 70% and this is dropping every year, of the population support hunting. REWIND, this is dropping every year. Get it together, hunters, YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. The best thing the anti's have going for them is the constant 24 hour barrage they launch on us as just meat eaters even. California Joaquine Valley is drying up because of environmentalists, yet we are the the true conservationists and are losing. Trust me my friends... it is US OR THEM.... not US, US, US, THOSE GUYS OVER THERE OR THEM.... It is US OR THEM and they outnumber us Bub....

You have to fight... you have to join. You have to spend the money. You Life Members of ANY GROUP.... you think you have done your part? You haven't. 90% of Life memberss have paid their memberships and then sit back comfortable in the knowledge that you did your part. You're NOT HELPING!. We as life members of ANY organization, need to keep contributing and volunteering every year. IT IS US OR THEM. There are WINNERS AND LOSERS... tell me... how much have we won? BullChit....

When we defeat an amendment to stop hunting, we haven't won. We only beat them back. Don't consider retaining what we already have a win, cuz they'll be back next year, and the year following. Being able to hunt, but with only a bow, doesn't help either... how a gun looks has nothing to do with how it works. Remember that. A kit Ferrari with a chevy 350 engine is not a ferrari as a kit model a with a 350 chevy engine is not a model A either but they all are cars. What a gun looks like doesn't change its character unless and ONLY IF ONCE YOU PULL THE TRIGGER YOU CAN'T TURN IT OFF.

Hunters need to grow up and FOCUS. We are brothers, not adversaries. Start acting like family instead of the inlaws.

Join the groups THAT ARE DOING THE HEAVY LIFTING and do your part... it's more than just the money.

Aloha....  :beer:


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## Ayastigi

*Nra*

Life member here!!! They help to perserve our right to keep and bear arms not just hunt but competitive shootin and in general the right to just have a weapon no matter what you choice or not to do with it. I agree with the previous statment before mine when he says just joing is not enough and i agree. Joining is only part of it if it means anythin to you you have to put more into it than a small fee. Participate donate to cause be a leader no a passive participant, it is well documented in other countries that when you depend on the few to protect your rights is to neglect yoy duty to your offspring and the future genterations to know like in the future like we have in the past. No brainer I think.


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## Gigmaster

First off: What's wrong with being a Hospital Corpsman? Or a 'wing-wiper, or 'bubble-head', cook, clerk, or whatever? We all served, and did an important job. I am a live inactive Marine today, instead of a name on a wall in DC., because a Corpsman saved my life, under intense fire, back in the late 60s in Vietnam, including shielding my wounded body with his own while loading me on a Huey. He was the bravest man I've ever known. His name is on the wall.....

I don't get the slam against certain military jobs. Everyone can't serve in the Infantry, or be a pilot. Someone has got to cook, clean, repair equipment, do paperwork, etc.... And it is just as vital to the war effort. I guess I took a little offense at the name-calling. A veteran is a veteren...period!

I used to be an NRA member, but I dropped out years ago because they compromise too much, and do too many political 'deals'. I got tired of them saying they got an anti-gun bill killed, so send us some money...only to have the same bill come up in the next session and pass. The NRA has never gotten one single gun law repealed. I now belong to a much more aggressive group called the Right To Keep And Bear Arms. They have actually permanently killed several bills, and have been instrumental in reversing many rulings on firearms related issues. They have a much better track record than the NRA, and don't always ask for money. They also don't have time to seek publicity, or pat themselves on the back. They quietly do what is needed, behind the scenes, where the real action is. With them, I can see where my money is going. They also don't play politics. They have many, many lawyers in the membership that attack the issues from a legal, rather than political standpoint. I also belong to Gun Owners of America, and the Knife Rights Organizations.

If you like the NRA, then by all means, support them. But they don't have near the teeth that the general public thinks they do. It's all publicity and hype. Their bark is way louder than their bite. When it comes to my rights, I am a little more 'unbending' than the NRA is. I have no intentions of being 'reasonable', when the Constitution is threatened.

Semper Fi.


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## Wantabooner

*Life member*

Lifetime membership since 1976


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## Wantabooner

*Politics*

For the folks that don't like the NRA playing politics....In Washington, if you're noy "playing politics"...You ain't playing at all!


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## mikel m14

I'm a member.


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## Panther3025

Life time member since 1992 and a Texas Rifle member also. They are the ones that pussed the heller case to the high courts


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## awshucks

> and other states that have had archery seasons shortened since the crossbow was legalized.


Name them.


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## bobby2bears

*Nra*

Member for last 30 years. Don't always agree 100% with their views but I'm not ready for a divorce yet either!

By the way HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA!!!!! ccasion13:


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## browningBAMA

*I'm not realy as educated on this as i should be but.....*

If you look at what our government is starting to try to do, you can clearly see that they intend to disarm american citezens. It's a whole lot easier to control people when they don't have the means to fight back. Wake up people! "cling to your Bibles AND your guns" your going to need them both. If they come to take my guns they better learn to dodge arrows.


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## sits in trees

i'm a member because they support it all right across the board unlike some smaller so called hunter or bow and shotgun associations which are very selective of what they support as long as it benenfits their cause.

i know of one fancy arsed sporting clay shooter who once had the nerve to tell me, ahh i don't belong to the NRA because they will never come after my over unders, and besides who needs a gun with a ten round clip anyway???


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## Stringwacker

awshucks said:


> Name them.


Virginia and soon to be North Carolina.

Virginia lost a week to black powder guns after the crossbow was legalized.... and the new proposed regulations to allow crossbows in North Carolina has a provision to shorten the archery season a week. The fact that it will not allowed to take effect this year in North Carolina is more of a legal procedure issue rather than a re-thinking of the decision.

That being said, you can still hunt with a bow the same number of days, but archery 'only' days have been shortened. The threat of a crossbow is not in how many deer it will kill...but the precident it establishes that changes can be made in archery seasons. That 'change' can go well beyond crossbows when biologically increased harvest is sustainable.

That doesn't mean that crossbows haven't performed nicely in some states..usually those that have abbreviated guns seasons. Other states have seen declines in hunter participation as soon as the weapon was legalized. All this said to make a point that there is a mixed bag of results of the impact of crossbow legalization depending on the states that is was inserted.


The real threat of the crossbow is not the weapon itself, but the re-thinking of the term 'choice' as an individual right. Choice goes well beyond any archery equipment. Firearm users likely have the strongest opinions about choice and individual rights....and anything that moves archery (in their perception) to a more gun like weapon is sure to encourage them to act the same manner as the crossbow users 'me too' arguments in comparing compounds to crossbows.

Time will tell if more states in the future will mimic the Virginia and North Carolina actions.


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## totalcomfort

+1 member for 10yrs


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## awshucks

> That being said,* you can still hunt with a bow the same number of days,* but archery 'only' days have been shortened.


Look's like an 'Oopsie' on your part, lol. If NC is adjusting their season prior to xbow inclusion, you can hardly lay that on the xbow.

No season has been shortened due to xbow inclusion in any state.


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## Chief56

*NRA Membership*

Been a member for years.


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## Stringwacker

awshucks said:


> Look's like an 'Oopsie' on your part, lol. If NC is adjusting their season prior to xbow inclusion, you can hardly lay that on the xbow.
> 
> No season has been shortened due to xbow inclusion in any state.



The last paragraph of my last post is pretty clear that I don't think the crossbow (the weapon) is as much of the problem as much as the inclusionist argument itself. Having almost 25 year experiance working with the legislature as a liason, it becomes readily apparent that if you loosen one restriction; only to place it at another point...then you will have yet another user group that wants 'inclusion' too. The end game may well put everyone in one deer season where choice rules supreme. Of course when that happens, there won't likely be many archery companies that can stay in business and crossbow users will be right back where they started...in the gun season.

It is a fact that crossbow were legalized in Virginia. It is another fact that verticle/crossbow season lost a week of archery only season soon after in that state. The new crossbow recruits didn't save the season dates in Virgina. It is also fact that Alabama and Tennesee saw archery particpation decline from day one of the crossbow legalization. I have no premise of why that is. I only state the facts.

There is no "Oopsie" on my part as I find disfavor with ANY loss of archery only days. However, I do respect deeply anyone who feels that one general deer season that allows anything you can push, pull or drag into the woods to be fair. I can only assume that to be your position as it appears that (in your viewpoint) that since the crossbow can still be used in Virgina's black powder season...that nothing was really lost. That is the most sincere representation of 'choice'...but I don't think that finds the favor of most verticle or crossbow users. Black powder or firearm users find the string barrier no more sacred in establishing a season framework than does the crossbow proponent 'hand held, hand drawn argument of the verticle bow user.

As far as NC the same premise holds true. If sportsmen are not satisfied with the status qou and ask their DNR's for greater choice...then as long as the harvest is within biological limits...choice will eventually win out. Choice in this instance goes well beyond the debate of just a crossbow. There is a skeleton in the closet regarding crossbows, but it's in a different closet than you are accustom to looking. The skeleton is user demand, not biological impact. The precident of change being established by todays crossbow inclusionist goes well beyond their goals.

As it relates to the topic of the NRA, their position says nothing about crossbows. Their position is (paraphrased) that as the biological resource can withstrand the pressure, that states should allow more inclusion. That just another way to say lets bring on the firearms as soon a biologically feasible.


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## kykiller

They are all a gun owner has, I might not agree with everything they do with my fees but they are the only ones fighting for me.


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## titanium man

Proud Member and Ultra Supporter of the 2nd Amendment.


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## mata_777

NRA member here. :darkbeer:


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## Okie1bow

*All, or at least most*

NRA Member
NFAA "
ASA "
OSAA "
Bowhunters of Okla. "
CC Licence for 15 Years
Navy Combat Vet.
American Citizen; not an American "subject"!! 

Oh yes, like most of us here; cling to my spiritual beliefs and guns as a back up. And, HB's as a fall back to that if close enough and necessary.
Just what BHO, NP, HR & HRC fear most!!!


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## awshucks

> It is a fact that crossbow were legalized in Virginia. It is another fact that vertical/crossbow season lost a week of archery only season soon after in that state. The new crossbow recruits didn't save the season dates in Virgina. It is also fact that Alabama and Tennessee saw archery participation decline from day one of the crossbow legalization. I have no premise of why that is. I only state the facts.


Va has a deer problem, which is why they got m/l in archery season. Maybe if they would have allowed the xbows earlier there wouldn't have been a need to include the m/l?

The same thing has happened in at least one other state in an effort to manage the herd, while the vert orgs fight inclusion tooth and nail.

Va harvest stats for last season:

Archers, not including crossbow hunters, killed 17,881 deer. The bow kill *comprised 7% of the total* deer kill.
Crossbows resulted in a deer kill of 9,597 deer* or 4% of the total deer kill.*
Muzzleloader hunters killed 57,038 deer. Muzzleloading comprised* 22% of the total deer kill.*

Should make it easy to see which is helping control their problem the most. I've left out the other stats as they are not germane to this.



> There is no "Oopsie" on my part as I find disfavor with ANY loss of archery only days. However, I do respect deeply anyone who feels that one general deer season that allows anything you can push, pull or drag into the woods to be fair. I can only assume that to be your position as it appears that (in your viewpoint) that since the crossbow can still be used in Virgina's black powder season.


I no more want to see guns in archery season than anyone else, you know the saying about 'assumptions''

I've followed your 'slippery slope posts' for a while now on various forums and took exception to your claim that any archery season was reduced due to xbow inclusion. It's not true.

What is true is if various states can't manage their herds to their satisfaction, you will see more guns in archery season, something no arrow flinger wants.


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## Stringwacker

awshucks said:


> Va has a deer problem, which is why they got m/l in archery season. Maybe if they would have allowed the xbows earlier there wouldn't have been a need to include the m/l?
> 
> The same thing has happened in at least one other state in an effort to manage the herd, while the vert orgs fight inclusion tooth and nail.
> 
> Va harvest stats for last season:
> 
> Archers, not including crossbow hunters, killed 17,881 deer. The bow kill *comprised 7% of the total* deer kill.
> Crossbows resulted in a deer kill of 9,597 deer* or 4% of the total deer kill.*
> Muzzleloader hunters killed 57,038 deer. Muzzleloading comprised* 22% of the total deer kill.*
> 
> Should make it easy to see which is helping control their problem the most. I've left out the other stats as they are not germane to this.
> 
> 
> 
> I no more want to see guns in archery season than anyone else, you know the saying about 'assumptions''
> 
> I've followed your 'slippery slope posts' for a while now on various forums and took exception to your claim that any archery season was reduced due to xbow inclusion. It's not true.
> 
> What is true is if various states can't manage their herds to their satisfaction, you will see more guns in archery season, something no arrow flinger wants.



I don't think that we are quite so far apart in our thinking. We both are archery (only) season supporters and we both recognize that if herds can't be managed effectively that we will see more firearm seasons at special seasons expense.

I'm not as sure as you are that crossbows past, present or future makes much difference in herd control in the over all scheme of things. Given that crossbow harvest stats are similar to verticle bow stats, there isn't really any justification in higher harvest numbers due to the crossbow. In many states the archery particpation is actually down from where it was pre-crossbow so any incremental harvest due to increased participation seems muted at best. If you have more Virginia info, I would really like to have the pre-crossbow archery particpation stats vs the most recent particpation stats.

In the bigger picture upwards of 90% of all annual harvest is taken by firearms (at least in my state). Certainly, if biology was the only catalyst of increased firearm %'s in hunting season dates, the least controversial means would be to just increase gun season days. Yet that logic doesn't seem to always flow due to hunter expectations (ie compounds are just like crossbows so crossbow should be legal too...or I don't see why the string crowd has special days, they just want it to themselves...me and the boys want to use our muzzleloaders as they are more primitive than a compound etc, etc, etc)

I find it extremely ironic that "choice and inclusion' are the poster child of the neo crossbow movement in a season (archery only) that owes it's complete existence on strict equipment restrictions. In some ways, the crossbowman champions change for himself.... while excluding other forms of hunters in the same season. That really IS a slippery slope! I really never had a problem with considering vertical archery only seasons fair as long as they were open to everyone to participate who had a desire. It's only a recent phenom that "fair" has been debated on weapon selection rather than accesability.

As far as that entire slippery slope thing. While I usually don't use that term, slippery slopes exist in all forms so it isn't my sole domain. Mississippi hasn't a muzzleloader only season any longer. User expectations for inlines, became a demand for scopes, that became a demand for pellitized powder, sabots, electronic ignitions etc. Finally user demand said, that there isn't a hill of beans difference between inline black powder rifle than a single shot centerfire rifle. The state eventually agreed and inserted centerfire single shot rifles in the 'primitive weapon' season. The next year they allowed kids under 16 to shoot any type of firearm they wanted in the "primitive weapon" season and this year they came one vote away from eliminating the primitive weapon season all together. Lousiana saw what Mississippi had done and adopted the same regulations for their muzzleloader season. Talk about slippery slopes! All those extra muzzleloader recruits brought by all the changes just kept asking for less restrictions. They didn't want a black powder rifle, they wanted a gun! No safety in numbers. It's kind of like crossbows and muzzleloaders in Virginia in that the new crossbow recruits just apparently went hunting and didn't become activist like yourself...so part of the season they worked so hard to achieve...just melted away. I

Politics plays a very important role in season setting. In an expanding herd with declining hunters...it's likely THE most important influence based on my experiance. If enough Bubba's say they want change and the resource can stand the pressure...then you are going to likely have change. Sometimes tradition (defined as it will always be, because it has always been) is sometimes the best strategy in maintaining special seasons of all forms. Ask for new weapons to be inserted and you often create a wildlife that can get away from you. I can think of countless examples in those 25 years of that very thing. I would find it surprising if the changes brought forth by the crossbow movement didn't condition Virginia for more changes in the archery season. There are usually plenty of people in every state that have a better idea of 're-invention' of the archery season. Looks like the NRA is one of them.

Hmmm.....


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## awshucks

Tell you what, I'm gonna give you the last word here as we seem to be getting O/T and close to violating the no debate rule. 

I lost several files so can only provide posts from various forums that have a semblance of data in them.



> I find it extremely ironic that "choice and inclusion' are the poster child of the neo crossbow movement in a season (archery only) that owes it's complete existence on strict equipment restrictions.


Those 'strict equipment restrictions' have been adjusted many times prior to xbow inclusion, up to and including 99% let off compounds, so let's be at least honest there.



> If you have more Virginia info, I would really like to have the pre-crossbow archery particpation stats vs the most recent particpation stats.


 [borrowed]
BTW ...
Let's correct the record on the license sales in Virginia..
2005 (before crossbows)
Resident Vertical - 58,697
N.R. Vertical - 2,798
Total - 61,495
2006 (first year of crossbow)
Resident Vertical - 52,173
N.R. Vertical - 2,561
N. R. Crossbow - 628
Resident Crossbow- 15,039
Total - 70,401 (increase of 8,904 over 2005)
2007
Sportsman - 3,156
Resident Vertical - 48,346
N.R. Vertical - 2,611
N. R. Crossbow - 778
Resident Crossbow- 19,605
Total - 74,496
Net gain from 2005 is 13,001 licenses sold.

In VA. each weapon except gun requires the purchase of a different license. That's one for xbow, one for compound & traditional together, and muzzle loader is another license. Same number of deer tags as they come from the general gun license every deer hunter must buy. These fees go back to the sportsman in the form of lands, upkeep and studies to allow us to keep and pay our own way.



> In many states the archery particpation is actually down from where it was pre-crossbow


Xbow has nothing to do w/ numbers dropping and has never been claimed a cure-all for stopping the trend of people not hunting. Michigan has yet to have it's first xbow season and their numbers are way bad, something like 200,000 less over all and a claimed loss of 10,000 archery hunters per year, a good example why you don't want to lay those declines on the xbow.

Like I said, lost files but here's a post on increases in the over 60 crowd in Md and Wi. [borrowed]

Crossbows were legalized for Seniors (over 65) in Wisconsin in 2002. 2001-2002 was the CWD scare and hunting license sales dropped across the board, so they are not good years for comparison. By the next year (2003) hunting license sales rebounded to just about the same level they had been prior to the CWD scare. That is except for the Senior archery license. Sales of that license not only matched sales from the pre-CWD, pre-crossbow years but they exceeded the 2000 license levels by 21%. The following year in 2004 they increased substantially again and were up over 48% over the pre-crossbow inclusion years. That 48% increase in the senior archery demographic can be solely attributed to the inclusion of crossbows for seniors. That my friend, is hunter retention!

In Maryland, the first year (2003) that crossbows were allowed for seniors, over-65 archery license sales increased by over 80% from the previous year when seniors were not allowed to use crossbows. The following year they increased to 290% above the last pre-crossbow year. The year after that the increase was up to 384% more senior bow hunters than before crossbow inclusion. Again this vast increase in the retention of the senior bow hunting demographic is solely the result of crossbow inclusion. You can try and spin those numbers any way you want but the facts are that as long as they were required to use vertical bows, fewer seniors decided to hunt during archery season. The fact is Mi has been losing 10,000 per year.

I was sorry to read on another forum you decided to drop your NRA membership after 30 years. I wasn't able to find their position statement due to time constraints but seem to recall a caveat in it that said something along the lines 'as long as there is no detriment to the resource'.

The xbow inc. thing is pretty much a done deal now w/ the movements in the past year or so.


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## Stringwacker

Nice reply Aw Shucks.

I really appreciate the stats...particuarly those of Virginia. Those stats are light years better than the ones I saw in Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee. It always amazes me why the crossbow does better in some states than others. I wish I was smart enough to reason it all out to where it all makes sense.

As for as those compound improvements that you mentioned...no argument from me. I'll be the first to say that the compounds innovation has taken it to a point where the crossbow looks 'similar'. There are still plenty of differences, but public perception is what matters the most when user expectations are involved. I'll have to assume (there I go again) that deep down we both know that an innovation stopping point has to be reached for the archery only season format to survive...we only differ at what point to draw that line. It matters not where the line is drawn as someone will feel left out. That's the problem.

It's good to see the Senior stats. I actually worked to provide elderly crossbow legalization for older hunters in my state. I'm a firm believer that when it comes to the disabled and elderly, not all challenges are merely weapon based; we must also address physical limitations and do what is neccesary to keep them in the field.

I differ somewhat from most on either side of the issue as I don't see the crossbow issue as black or white; moreso in a shade of dark gray My fear is based in the first hand experiance of continuing innovation until something jumps the threshold of 'archery'. It will happen but it might take years or decades. Look how long it took for the compound to really create the stepping stone to crossbow legalization. Those TAC 15's and Strykers gives us a glimpse of the future and who knows what a 500 pound crossbow might be like in a decade. The danger (again) will not be how many deer it kills, but the perception of firearm groups that they are 'left out" with their weapon of choice and there request for inclusion and the states desire to give it to them based on the past.

In closing, thanks for the civil discussion. I enjoy a good discussion with someone as yourself who is knowledgable in their position. Seems like way too many times, these things turn into the equivilent of bar room brawls...no wonder they are discouraged on the forum.

As far as the NRA. For now I can't support them but I did join Gunowners of America just to stay in the fight. I'm sure in time that I will rejoin the NRA. There will come a point in time that archery only seasons will have to exist soley based on recreational value as their biological value as a restricted harvest tool will be outdated with an expanding deer herd. I feel the NRA is ready to capitalize on this to create more firearm opportunities (at the expense of archery) as soon a the resource can stand the pressure. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that archery season will suffer a demise it this is unchecked and we can't validate archery only seasons based soley on recreational value.


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## Robert58

NRA Life Member since 1974.

TSRA Life Member since 1979.

Robert


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## rocklocker2

*guns*

know how many i own?neither does the government and i"ll keep it that way.
Heston said it best(from my cold dead hands)he was my Hero and i am a member


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## aceoky

awshucks said:


> Look's like an 'Oopsie' on your part, lol. If NC is adjusting their season prior to xbow inclusion, you can hardly lay that on the xbow.
> 
> No season has been shortened due to xbow inclusion in any state.


+1 Exactly correct

PROUD NRA Member here (as is my entire family, ) 

Anyone who would drop their NRA membership over supporting hunter recruitment and retention should "really think" about that stance IMO


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## aceoky

> The last paragraph of my last post is pretty clear that I don't think the crossbow (the weapon) is as much of the problem as much as the inclusionist argument itself


OK..........."fair enough" , let's examine that argument shall we.......??

Those who support crossbow inclusion have the real hard scientific data that proves the crossbow is no more "anything" than is the already legal compound bow, same range same success rates.........Same = SAME

Now maybe it doesn't seem "odd to you" that one weapon is legal in all 50 states during the bow or archery seasons and one is not....

IS there a sound and valid reason for this? NO Is there by chance a biological one NO again.

The ONLY reason this is the case is because some bow clubs (which you seem to have more faith in than the NRA btw) have made false claims and bogus statements solely in order to keep them from being allowed, this IS changing on a nearly daily basis, again real hard data is being used now (finally) to remove the outright Lies these groups have been getting away with telling for so long (PBS , NABC to name only two major players in the BS arena) 



> It is also fact that Alabama and Tennesee saw archery particpation decline from day one of the crossbow legalization.


Is it now a fact? 

Tell me this what was happening to archery hunting numbers in those states prior to this (and MI and PA and .....and) LOL 

I know for a fact (as I hunt in Tenn) that there were many NEW hunters (not just new to archery) brought into Tenn after full inclusion, I've met them and talked with them, spouses, children and I'm not even counting the senior hunters who came back into archery hunting because of crossbow inclusion.....

You mention "next will be guns in archery seasons", and basically seem to be asking "what is the difference", well for one crossbows are bows, disputing centuries old truth won't get you far in life, and guns make a much louder noise and have much farther killing range than any bow (even the lowly 30/30 beats bows a bunch)......just for a few differences, but I'll "play it your way"

IF you don't want to see guns in bow seasons then you'd best do whatever you can to get More (not fewer) bow hunters out there, because even though bows are not a "primary source" of herd control nor are the seasons (guns are the primary control mechanism ) there may come a time (and possibly soon) where there are not enough of "us" participating to keep it a "bow only season".....

That's not pure conjecture (like so many try to use to keep other fellow bow hunters out of a public season) it's a very real possibility when you look at the current trends in loss of hunters.......Factor in last year's high fuel costs and the costs that brings with it to the F&G Agencies and you can well see how important it is for them to maintain a viable hunter's base after all WE pay for the conservation of all wildlife!

I don't care if "you" never pick up a crossbow and hunt with it, I DO care that anyone would risk what we all here love over foolish "principles" that are in fact the opposite of what you say you want.....

It's your right (and choice which I support both) to drop your NRA membership, I don't agree with your reasoning here , yet I still support your right to make that individual choice......Kinda like I support anyone who wishes to use a crossbow to bow hunt with in a Public bow season! ( I have never hunted with one, have no desire to at this time--- though I easily could here)

I support FREEDOMS, I support choices, I despise dictators, (and "would be dictators" also) so sure I am a NRA member and proud to be one!


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## Stringwacker

You must type like 90 words a minute to get much out in a post (lol)

Nothing that is going to be said is going to change your mind so why bother but I guess I'll say a few things for those that aren't so self convinced. My experiances are my own, referenced in the state that I live in, based on over two decades of political experiance. The crossbow has some bow and firearm style characteristics. Bows don't have stocks, triggers, scopes or shoot over 400 FPS...likely more FPS in the future. Bows aren't loaded with cranks. There plenty of differences...that why the states (not bowhunters!) don''t include them in something like 35 out of 50 states.

The PA Commission rolled back the full inclusion to two weeks today...did you hear? Those TAC 15's and the like really are starting to have an effect on perception. Looks like the manufactures would hold off on the really big stuff until they got further long in this process. They shouldn't get too carried away with a few states legalization after only 35 years of efforts. How long did the compound (that all you guys talk about) take to get legalized in 50 states. 5 years? Must be some differences that aren't being talked about. Acceptance being one of them.

If you legalize crossbows in a state and then lose archery only days. The numbers didn't help you. Keep spinning the spin, it doesn't change the outcome. Just like spin doesn't change the facts that archery particpation is down in some crossbow states despite all the hoopla about new hunters being created,.....not enough to make a difference apprently. Spin that too if you like. It doesn't change the facts on the ground. Coulda, shoulda, woulda....the facts stay the same.

Ballistics, harvest ratio's, biolgical statements...who cares? Do you understand the role of user expecatations or user desire? No black powder or firearm users gives a darn about your reasons why they can't be included as well in your world of choice. Choice and inclusion for only yourself...your no different that the bowhunters and bow groups that you despise. You want to draw the line where it benefits you... and forget the others. Let em eat cake.

Lower poundage bows, draw locks, disabled and elderly laws all provide alternatives to crossbow legalization and allows choice to particpate in an the archery season or not. One day you'll discover that firearm users will desrespect your position and ask for their own inclusion. You have encouraged them. Bubba don't care about ballistics and such, all they know is a crossbow has a shoulder, scope and trigger just like old Betsy. You''ll be taking the role of of the verticle bow user today except you'll be defending the archery only turf against a larger group of users than crossbowman. Some of which will be speaking as crossbowmen as they like the crossbow weapon. They will appreciate your efforts to get them in the game just as the compound got your crossbow in the game. You see how it works? I know that crossbows predated compounds, but so did gun powder and firearms but I don't want to see them in the archery season either!!!

Keep in mind that I've seen it all happen in the Mississippi primitive weapon season. It's not conjecture if you've already seen it. It doesn't matter what the season is...user expectation is a huge factor in an expanding herd where biological bookends become less important than what users want.

You have the last word. I refuse to indulge further in such silliness.


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## wr00

I'm a member, have been for about 11 years now. also a member of whitetails unlimited & north American hunting club.


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## aceoky

> The crossbow has some bow and firearm style characteristics.


The crossBOW predates firearms by many centuries, thus your claim is not even possible much less accurate.....sorry but that's a fact.....

You folks try to get around that, yet cling to the modern compound (which came about in many of us here's lifetime) saying the compound IS a bow and the centuries old crossBOW is "something else", you're right when you said this though......



> such silliness.


IMO sums up most of what you "think may happen" just as making claims the crossbow has firearm characteristics which we all know it's impossible to have something similar when it predates it by many centuries......silliness is being polite 



> The PA Commission rolled back the full inclusion to two weeks today...did you hear?


Um NOT "Exactly"..........they made a prelim vote to do so, but that's not a "done deal" (not by a longshot)........guess you didn't realize that??????

Since YOU brought it up, please explain to me (even though you wanted ME to have the last word this deserves an answer IMHO) WHY doesn't it bother you that the PA BOC took this vote without ALL the new BOC members being seated? (one is still being confirmed).....or do you support such "back door tactics" so long as things go as you would like them to go despite proper ethics and protocol?

It's a valid (and serious question btw)

Also (if you wouldn't mind too much) are you also aware that even IF this passes it won't affect/effect this year's season? (they can't legally meet the requirements in time for that)......

Also just so you KNOW something rather important to most folks are you also aware that IF this is done, there is NO way for PA folks to get a new disability permit?

Yes you read that correctly in their haste to "undo what they've done" they seemed to forget about the Federal ADA laws AND that their last vote made the disability permit system unnecessary so it's GONE now.....

I wonder now if you're so happy about things in PA?????

BTW yes I "heard" (and then some) 



> Must be some differences that aren't being talked about. Acceptance being one of them.


It's simple certain groups willing to make up anything to try to keep them out or delay them, still if you've been paying attention how many have been fully included in the past five years, do you really think it's because of REAL reasons when data proves they have identical success rates to already legal compounds??

I know you're smarter than that, making up "test data" and passing it off as something else isn't something I'd be proud of IF I were on your side of the fence, IF you are that's on you, not on me or my side of this issue, yes it managed to fool several states for some decades but rest assured that is changing by the moment...

YOUR bow orgs have fought other fellow hunters to keep them out of the seasons only because they want to use another bow one proven to be no more effective than the compound > 90% of the same folks use, again that's on you and your groups , our side isn't for exclusion based upon foolish things.......

IF you think that even most of us would fight for guns in archery/bow seasons you're sadly mistaken on that as well.......one more choice of a bow is not the same thing also I'm sure you KNOW this to be true....

YOUR "bow orgs" have cost themselves many thousands of new members by fighting crossbow inclusion (and losing the battle no less more often than not)......think about the FUTURE of the groups you care about, HOW is this a good idea in the long run? It's not.....fighting your own kind is counter-productive and foolish......not hard to figure out why that is........

We'll see IF you can and will answer these few serious questions........


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## aceoky

> Choice and inclusion for only yourself...your no different that the bowhunters and bow groups that you despise. You want to draw the line where it benefits you... and forget the others. Let em eat cake.


Missed this first time around (and it deserves it's own space and not in the "other book" )  

First I'm NOT a crossbow hunter, I hunt on the ground with a recurve (funny you didn't know this it's not a secret) I have NO desire at all to hunt with a crossbow- NONE.....

According to you I "despise myself"?????? That is comical!!!!!!!! 

I don't despise bow groups either , I DO despise them fighting other bow hunters who wish to use crossbows , that's not likely to change.....so be it...

Just another "assumption" you made with nothing to back it up with.....

It's SIMPLE guns are not bows......crossbows ARE bows always have been (firearms had not been invented and weren't for centuries-fact -period).....

Crossbows launch an Arrow by means of force contained in bent limbs released via a bowstring..sending a broadhead tipped arrow downrange (in hunting which IS what we are discussing) ....HOW does "your bow work"??? 

Guns on the other hand (including flintlocks) use a propellant (not a string e.g. gunpowder of one type or another) have a "bullet" of one type or another (patched/round ball, conical etc.) NOT an arrow......to claim to not notice this or the BOOM that guns make, proves how foolish (to use your words silly) this can get....

ALL bows during public bow seasons in all states, fair to all (no one is forced to use a crossbow, nothing changes for those who don't want to , they do as they've always done, happens every season in several states now) 

To try to claim that allowing one more bow in Public bow seasons opens the door to guns is absurd......as you mentioned compounds were allowed pretty fast and yet bow seasons remained didnt' they.....

Since you like to talk about "History" there is some you can't dispute, > 30 years of compound history proves the worry is for naught


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## Stringwacker

Hi Jim,

Let me begin by saying that I love a good debate on the subject. I think we have shared many PM's in the past (civilly) over the subject off the message board. I do have respect for the rules of this forum (having been reminded of that fact by Aw Shucks earlier), but given your request for a public response to your last post; I'll agree. However, I'll ask you to go the PM route in the future. Of course, in a measure of respect I want you to have the last word. I'll respond no more to this thread as minds aren't going to be changed.

I'm more than a little baffled that crossbows can't have gun style characteristics according to your last post because crossbow pre-dated firearms in development. Did you ever think that since crossbow pre-dated firearms that perhaps it is firearms that that have 'crossbow' chacteristics? It wouldn't change the outcome would it? Stocks, non-hand held triggers, thumb holes, scopes, pre-loaded, ready to fire, forearms, etc are all similar characteristics of a firearm. A child could pick out the similarities and it is these attributes that will be the basis for the next step of user expectation and demand. They will discard the bow characteristics just because it doesn't serve their selfish interest; just as crossbow proponents disregard the hand held, hand drawn arguments of verticle bow users. It doesn't serve the crossbow interest so those compelling differences are disgarded as well. The larger population of hunters use firearms, and they are eager for *inclusion and choice* as you have advocated for yourself, yet denied to them. It's the one hole in the argument used by crossbow advocates that a truck could be driven through. While it is understood that the choice and inclusion argument is used in the context of the archery only season, it is also clear that the debate is not staying in a vacuum and you are encourging far larger groups to get involved that are outside the confies of archery users. I see the choice and inclusion merits of the movement has started something that (in time) cannot be stopped where you want it.

One only has to look at Virginia. Legalized crossbows, had a swell of hunters, lost a week to black powder season in fairly short order. Fact. Why wasn't there safety in those increased crossbow numbers? Why didn't those supposedly 10,000 new (and likely firearm) crossbow users lay down the law and defend the archery season? Why couldn't govenment officials see that 'a black powder rifle' wasn't a bow and use that as the distinction to keep the season as it was? You used a lot of cyberspace to explain the difference between bows and firearms to explain why the archery season wasn't going to be effected. The fact remains that the biology of the situation allowed it and user expectation wanted it. It therefore... happened. It's not rocket science or vodoo wildlife management. That is wasn't a bow, that the change involved a firearm...yada, yada, yada...don't spin it. It didn't make a hill of beans. It just happened. Just as it is going to happen in North Carolina (choice and inclusion) debates are having an effect from day one. Just as it happened in Mississippi and Louisana with the black powder seasons. You don't just create change where YOU want it. You don't control the outcome. User expectation and demand happens in all hunting seasons and sports. The only way to counter it is to take steps that don't encourage other user groups to ask for 'more'. Advocating new weapon (not people!!!) inclusion in an archery season (that a large percentage of the current users don't want) is not the way to handle the issue.

We have a discussion a few years ago where I tried to explain to you what was going to happen. The fact that it is starting to happen isn't changing your outlook. I had stated:

"I think it's just an issue of taking on the most percieved imminent threat. Anti-hunters are the biggest threat to hunting....but season structure collaspe is the biggest threat to bowhunting in the near term"

That was true in 2007 and it's especially true in 2009.

Regarding crossbows. First lets understand the obvious that you aren't advocating a medeval weapon for legalization. Todays crossbow (TAC 15, Stryker ect) has no more in common with the historical weapon that you often refer to than a compound does with a self bow. We are in circa 2009 and we have crossbows in the current marketplace that offer much better ballastics than a compound. That might not have been true in 2004, but it is true today. Crossbow innovation is even outrunning the arguments used for it's legalization. What about the future? You don't just legalize a crossbow today, but you legalize the future innovation that is associated with it. Surely you don't believe all those that ballistic hooey being used is going to hold true for the future? You are smarter than that. It isn't even true today and will be even less so in the future. Weapons that have the advantage of having the power loaded into the weapon by mechanical means, surely has a development potential that far exceeds the potential of another weapon that the power is hand loaded. Even on a compound bow that has 90% letoff...the power still has to be applied by the archers strength. Not so with the crossbow. It's a HUGE difference in terms of future innovation. Where ever the innovation of the crossbow goes, the sport goes with it.

In regard to crossBOWS being bows. Both bows and crossbows are nouns. They each describe different weapons...otherwise there would be no distinction between the two. Compound, recurve, self etc are adjectives to describe "what type of BOW" ie compound bow, recurve bow etc. A crossbow is no more a bow than a groundHOG is a hog, or a seaHORSE is a horse. If I should ever be invited one day over to your house to eat. I'm surely hoping that it's ground hog (sausage) as opposed to groundhog!:smile: Lets don't get too carried away with the spin associated with crossBOWS. Sometimes all these arguments being used to justify a groups selfish desire borders on the edge of delusional.

Regarding the issue in PA. Certainly there is a long way to go in that twisted trail of developments. In addition to the items mentioned, there is also the House bill to contend with. That being said, the Commission reversal is an estatic step for the bowhunters of PA and the bowhunter coalition. I think the longer the issues drag out the harder it will be for crossbow advocates to make their case due to the increasing evidence that the crossbow isn't the holy grail that it was sold to be. Certainly disturbing is that members the PA Commission has already said that if they can't roll back the crossbow dates, that they will have to DECREASE the overall archery season. Unlike, you I view this debacle directly at the feet of the crossbow advocates. Certainly the PA archery season has run fine for years except for this year. What changed? A group of people that didn't want the current laws to apply to them petitioned for change! What a mess. Shameful. As for a commenting on any aspects of 'how it happened' all I can say is that when Kentucky approved crossbows (and then rolled it back to partial inclusion like PA) bow groups complained that the Cornell study was biased. In Alabama they said that the Chairman of the CAB sat on the board of EBSCO and had interest in purchasing a crossbow company, in Louisana one of the Commissioners that voted for 'inclusion' was a former owner of Barnett crossbows. Now you want to bring up this? It's all sour grapes in my opinion when the verdict doesn't turn out how someone likes it. Each state has laws and attorney generals to enforce them. Regardless, I don't have a dog in the hunt and I suggest you contact the state of PA if you have an issue with how they run things up there. 

Ok...where are we? Next issue. Compound legalization didn't cause any issues? Jim..dude...what are discussing here? Can you seriously say that compounds and it's development has absolutely nothing to do with todays crossbow movement? I won't dignify that line of though any further except to say that there already movement in firearm hunters to be included as well. (think Virginia, NC) Each new crossbow innovation (and increased ballistics) closes the perception gap in the season seperation and encourages gun users to take steps for inclusion. PSE's TAC-15 could have never been developed for any market except the black gun crowd. Yet you continue to disavow any relationship between a crossbow and a firearm. The facts are not on your side. You can spin the issue, but facts are facts. You bog yourself down with the Webster defination between the two; while ignoring the fact that the perception of users is much more important.

I also can't buy that after 35 years of crossbow legalization efforts that 15 or so states that allow the crossbow is some major movement (especially compared to the 5 year legalization span of the compound) The diffrences are even more stark when you take into account that the compound gained full inclusion in the archery seasons where the crossbow's 'win' column contains many states that are 'partial' inclusions. I would think full crossbow inclusion states number less than 10....even if you count PA and NC which isn't a done deal. That's hardly a big return given the incredible social chaos and hunter division that the crossbow movement created.

I want to close with something that we might agree own. I think that because of the expansion of wildlife populations that user demand and expectation will play a much larger role in wildlife management than it has done over the last three decades. Given that bowhunters are such an extreme minority in the family of all hunters, I feel that crossbow inclusion will continue to enjoy a slow growth for years to come. Where I think we diverge is on the outcome. There are going to be more Virginia's, more North Carolina's, more Mississippi's & Louisana's (black powder seasons) etc. The trend is not good and loosened restrictions is not gaining security for special seasons, but instead serving as catalyst for even looser restrictions in the future. Crossbow legalization is just a pawn in the process.


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## aceoky

First, thanks ( I guess) for the "last word"......

About firearms in VA (Black Powder) to be more specific, you seem to (by no accident I will add) ignore the facts of that matter (and it's ONE isolated incident based on BIOLOGY - Science and has nothing to do with crossbows) VA had to decrease it's deer herd for biological (not to mention social reasons e.g. deer/car collisions , crop damage etc.) Bows weren't getting that done "quickly enough", so the next logical step was BP guns added one week to "help", now it "might be " true had the extra 10,000 crossbow hunters in VA came along sooner that could have been avoided, that's pure conjecture so I'll pass on that, but it's FAR more accurate than your "assumption" that crossbow inclusion lead to the increased VA BP Season it's not true or accurate in the least ....

The FACT is of all the states you've mentioned (notice they're mostly Southern states with BOOMING deer herds) as I told you in our conversations (nice how you remember "telling me the future" but neglect to mention what "I" predicted)  the BIGGEST immediate threat to bow only seasons is not crossbows or gun hunters or even anti hunters but FAILURE to take enough deer during "our season" to warrant US keeping it to ourselves unlike you sir, I would MUCH rather include crossbows than firearms of any type in the early season....Your facts ARE indeed facts, it's your Spin (that you accuse me of) on and of the facts that has even yourself confused IMO 

As much as most of us LOVE to hunt deer, we must realize the damage they can and have done when not kept "in check" and realize that deer hunters are NOT the only folks affected by deer numbers, every driver on the road, farmers, orchard owners to name only a few , big business such as insurance companies are affected and have the $$ and clout to make herds decrease when they want it badly enough.....

NONE of these other groups cares one whit about if a bow,crossbow, ML , rifle shotgun or in fact poison is used so long as the herd numbers are decreased to such a level they are satisfied with , do I like that, NO is it fact , certainly it is....

The bow organizations fighting crossbow inclusion are MORE guilty of causing the VA situation than those fighting for inclusion....while it's true that bows (including crossbows) will likely never be "the" herd control factor (excluding very urban areas/zones) they can play an important enough role IF we have enough bow hunters (yes including with crossbows) doing OUR job of herd control/conservation.....

Make no mistake about it, when crossbows are fought other means WILL be considered (and possibly implemented) now You may try to blame the crossbow inclusion folks, but that doesn't make it facts......

A crossbow IS a bow, you can deny the facts a million times over, you can talk about "user perception" (perhaps your bow organizations should cease in trying to make it anything but a bow and stop the confusion) It's NOT just "my using webster's either" , Federal law says they're bows, P-R says they're a bow, anyone without an anticrossbow agenda KNOWS they're a bow, guns don't usually have bent limbs shooting arrows via a BOW string.....archery shops sell crossbows but usually not guns and where stores sell both, you'll find the crossbows where........that's right with the Other Bows.....

I will agree we're not changing each other's minds at all, I will however remind you that so many others do read this and I believe there is a valuable lesson in their seeing at "heated" as this can get and as devoted as each of us are (albeit on opposite sides) that this Can actually be discussed in a civil manner ; and who knows some folks may actually learn a few facts in the process.....

As for PA , trust me this is about much more than crossbows now and I'm doing "my part" for the future of PA sportsmen/women (on both sides of this issue)....even though I seriously doubt anything will in the end be changed , despite the PA bow orgs best efforts 

You may or may not know the PA bow org is fully responsible for causing the Pa Legislature to pull that bill out, it was no secret or surprise this would happen IF they pushed to try to change the last THREE votes of the BOC......THEY pushed Weaner to do this, despite the three year sunset provision, no matter where you stand on the PA crossbow inclusion that was a foolish move and a potentially costly one for PA Sportsmen/women.....sometimes it's best to let things be and not poke the bear........ IMHO

Also as I understand things the PA AG is already looking into several aspects of the latest vote........I won't go into specifics at this point as it's second hand and not totally confirmed but it is "interesting" stuff at this point..

One more important point......the "threat" was "IF this bill passes, I'll PUSH for a shorter archery season" from ONE member of the BOC......that's NOT saying it Will happen OR they even have the support (PA is a HUGE hunting state , do you REALLY believe that can happen , when it's obviously a threat to try to stop the PA Legislature from doing what they promised to do IF they did this new vote?)

I do not see that threat as viable at all! 

Whether firearms may have crossbow characteristics is not relevant to this discussion, crossbows can NOT be "like guns" because when they were invented guns had never been , they were a type of bow, that's an indisputable fact....and "using" strykers and ar-15 type crossbows is entertaining the latter is not legal in most states as the lower receiver IS a firearm.....which no doubt you're aware of but still left that fact out to spin your cause even more , it's ok I understand why you needed to  

Whether you like it or not , you can't (and be held credible) deny the booming deer herds that do exist in most states in the East especially, to "think" there will continue to be "bow only" seasons when we're losing hunters at alarming rates is at best a pipe dream.....gun hunters always have been the majority, they WILL get more time IF we don't do enough of our jobs.......

AM I claiming crossbows are "the answer" NO......I'm not sure there is "the answer", however losing hunters IS bad for us and whether some accept it or not crossbows DO aid in hunter recruitment and retention.....


"I" don't use a crossbow, have no desire to, however I can find NO good and valid reason to fight my own kind or their choice of a bow in public bow seasons, I think bow orgs who are doing so , are doing so to their own demise and what they are trying so hard to protect (bow only seasons) WILL suffer at their own hands......

When the data proves there is NO difference in compounds (already legal) and crossbows (NO data confirms this even with flintlocks btw- NOT the same argument no matter how much you say it is) there is no good or valid reason to exclude one bow(and the thousands of new crossbow hunters) while allowing ALL others.......It's simply a matter of bow hunters (and bow orgs) shooting themselves in the foot "thinking" they're helping somehow, when in fact they're only making things they don't want to happen.....actually happen (like the BP season in VA)


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## bama bow

I too am an NRA member and think it is every AMERCIAN'S right to own any type firearn they want. It is the 2nd Amend that has help to kept this country free along with all the vets.


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## Gunman

Proud Life Member.

If we allow a firearm of a certain type, or operating characteristic, or look to be defined and banned, the anti-gun and anti-hunting politicians will categorically define and ban them all. To tell me I can not have a certain type of firearm because someone else used it in an irresponsible manner is like telling someone "We don't think we can trust you with freedom. So, we are not going to allow you any freedom."


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## longbowhunter

I am a Life-Endowment Member. Over the years I have evolved into a Bow Only hunter for big game. But, still totally support the NRA. They look out for us.


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## thunderhead

*Member*

Life Member here.....


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## FedSmith

Life member, ILA Life Member, Contributing local writer, 
and any money I can sneak past my wife.

*Without the NRA there IS NO BOWHUNTING!!!*
Just ask Germany.


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## FedSmith

aceoky said:


> First, thanks ( I guess) for the "last word"......
> 
> About firearms in VA (Black Powder) to be more specific, you seem to (by no accident I will add) ignore the facts of that matter (and it's ONE isolated incident based on BIOLOGY - Science and has nothing to do with crossbows) VA had to decrease it's deer herd for biological (not to mention social reasons e.g. deer/car collisions , crop damage etc.) Bows weren't getting that done "quickly enough", so the next logical step was BP guns added one week to "help", now it "might be " true had the extra 10,000 crossbow hunters in VA came along sooner that could have been avoided, that's pure conjecture so I'll pass on that, but it's FAR more accurate than your "assumption" that crossbow inclusion lead to the increased VA BP Season it's not true or accurate in the least ....
> 
> The FACT is of all the states you've mentioned (notice they're mostly Southern states with BOOMING deer herds) as I told you in our conversations (nice how you remember "telling me the future" but neglect to mention what "I" predicted)  the BIGGEST immediate threat to bow only seasons is not crossbows or gun hunters or even anti hunters but FAILURE to take enough deer during "our season" to warrant US keeping it to ourselves unlike you sir, I would MUCH rather include crossbows than firearms of any type in the early season....Your facts ARE indeed facts, it's your Spin (that you accuse me of) on and of the facts that has even yourself confused IMO
> 
> As much as most of us LOVE to hunt deer, we must realize the damage they can and have done when not kept "in check" and realize that deer hunters are NOT the only folks affected by deer numbers, every driver on the road, farmers, orchard owners to name only a few , big business such as insurance companies are affected and have the $$ and clout to make herds decrease when they want it badly enough.....
> 
> NONE of these other groups cares one whit about if a bow,crossbow, ML , rifle shotgun or in fact poison is used so long as the herd numbers are decreased to such a level they are satisfied with , do I like that, NO is it fact , certainly it is....
> 
> The bow organizations fighting crossbow inclusion are MORE guilty of causing the VA situation than those fighting for inclusion....while it's true that bows (including crossbows) will likely never be "the" herd control factor (excluding very urban areas/zones) they can play an important enough role IF we have enough bow hunters (yes including with crossbows) doing OUR job of herd control/conservation.....
> 
> Make no mistake about it, when crossbows are fought other means WILL be considered (and possibly implemented) now You may try to blame the crossbow inclusion folks, but that doesn't make it facts......
> 
> A crossbow IS a bow, you can deny the facts a million times over, you can talk about "user perception" (perhaps your bow organizations should cease in trying to make it anything but a bow and stop the confusion) It's NOT just "my using webster's either" , Federal law says they're bows, P-R says they're a bow, anyone without an anticrossbow agenda KNOWS they're a bow, guns don't usually have bent limbs shooting arrows via a BOW string.....archery shops sell crossbows but usually not guns and where stores sell both, you'll find the crossbows where........that's right with the Other Bows.....
> 
> I will agree we're not changing each other's minds at all, I will however remind you that so many others do read this and I believe there is a valuable lesson in their seeing at "heated" as this can get and as devoted as each of us are (albeit on opposite sides) that this Can actually be discussed in a civil manner ; and who knows some folks may actually learn a few facts in the process.....
> 
> As for PA , trust me this is about much more than crossbows now and I'm doing "my part" for the future of PA sportsmen/women (on both sides of this issue)....even though I seriously doubt anything will in the end be changed , despite the PA bow orgs best efforts
> 
> You may or may not know the PA bow org is fully responsible for causing the Pa Legislature to pull that bill out, it was no secret or surprise this would happen IF they pushed to try to change the last THREE votes of the BOC......THEY pushed Weaner to do this, despite the three year sunset provision, no matter where you stand on the PA crossbow inclusion that was a foolish move and a potentially costly one for PA Sportsmen/women.....sometimes it's best to let things be and not poke the bear........ IMHO
> 
> Also as I understand things the PA AG is already looking into several aspects of the latest vote........I won't go into specifics at this point as it's second hand and not totally confirmed but it is "interesting" stuff at this point..
> 
> One more important point......the "threat" was "IF this bill passes, I'll PUSH for a shorter archery season" from ONE member of the BOC......that's NOT saying it Will happen OR they even have the support (PA is a HUGE hunting state , do you REALLY believe that can happen , when it's obviously a threat to try to stop the PA Legislature from doing what they promised to do IF they did this new vote?)
> 
> I do not see that threat as viable at all!
> 
> Whether firearms may have crossbow characteristics is not relevant to this discussion, crossbows can NOT be "like guns" because when they were invented guns had never been , they were a type of bow, that's an indisputable fact....and "using" strykers and ar-15 type crossbows is entertaining the latter is not legal in most states as the lower receiver IS a firearm.....which no doubt you're aware of but still left that fact out to spin your cause even more , it's ok I understand why you needed to
> 
> Whether you like it or not , you can't (and be held credible) deny the booming deer herds that do exist in most states in the East especially, to "think" there will continue to be "bow only" seasons when we're losing hunters at alarming rates is at best a pipe dream.....gun hunters always have been the majority, they WILL get more time IF we don't do enough of our jobs.......
> 
> AM I claiming crossbows are "the answer" NO......I'm not sure there is "the answer", however losing hunters IS bad for us and whether some accept it or not crossbows DO aid in hunter recruitment and retention.....
> 
> 
> "I" don't use a crossbow, have no desire to, however I can find NO good and valid reason to fight my own kind or their choice of a bow in public bow seasons, I think bow orgs who are doing so , are doing so to their own demise and what they are trying so hard to protect (bow only seasons) WILL suffer at their own hands......
> 
> When the data proves there is NO difference in compounds (already legal) and crossbows (NO data confirms this even with flintlocks btw- NOT the same argument no matter how much you say it is) there is no good or valid reason to exclude one bow(and the thousands of new crossbow hunters) while allowing ALL others.......It's simply a matter of bow hunters (and bow orgs) shooting themselves in the foot "thinking" they're helping somehow, when in fact they're only making things they don't want to happen.....actually happen (like the BP season in VA)


Congratulations; exceptional post. And you did *not *shoot yourself in the foot with a crossbow! LOL!

I've hunted since 1968. I've never seen anyone in the wild hunting with or even carrying a crossbow. I don't think the upswing of the use of the crossbow is in the Bible as a sign of the apacolypse.

Bows are cool.
My 7mmmMag is cool.
My pistols are cool.
Hunting is cool.

Everyone chill the **** out already


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## desmobob

I'm a member. Always have been. I do it in five-year blocks now, but sure wish I had bought a lifetime membership about 20 years ago!


----------



## steadyeddie

*last sentence*



aceoky said:


> First, thanks ( I guess) for the "last word"......
> 
> About firearms in VA (Black Powder) to be more specific, you seem to (by no accident I will add) ignore the facts of that matter (and it's ONE isolated incident based on BIOLOGY - Science and has nothing to do with crossbows) VA had to decrease it's deer herd for biological (not to mention social reasons e.g. deer/car collisions , crop damage etc.) Bows weren't getting that done "quickly enough", so the next logical step was BP guns added one week to "help", now it "might be " true had the extra 10,000 crossbow hunters in VA came along sooner that could have been avoided, that's pure conjecture so I'll pass on that, but it's FAR more accurate than your "assumption" that crossbow inclusion lead to the increased VA BP Season it's not true or accurate in the least ....
> 
> The FACT is of all the states you've mentioned (notice they're mostly Southern states with BOOMING deer herds) as I told you in our conversations (nice how you remember "telling me the future" but neglect to mention what "I" predicted)  the BIGGEST immediate threat to bow only seasons is not crossbows or gun hunters or even anti hunters but FAILURE to take enough deer during "our season" to warrant US keeping it to ourselves unlike you sir, I would MUCH rather include crossbows than firearms of any type in the early season....Your facts ARE indeed facts, it's your Spin (that you accuse me of) on and of the facts that has even yourself confused IMO
> 
> As much as most of us LOVE to hunt deer, we must realize the damage they can and have done when not kept "in check" and realize that deer hunters are NOT the only folks affected by deer numbers, every driver on the road, farmers, orchard owners to name only a few , big business such as insurance companies are affected and have the $$ and clout to make herds decrease when they want it badly enough.....
> 
> NONE of these other groups cares one whit about if a bow,crossbow, ML , rifle shotgun or in fact poison is used so long as the herd numbers are decreased to such a level they are satisfied with , do I like that, NO is it fact , certainly it is....
> 
> The bow organizations fighting crossbow inclusion are MORE guilty of causing the VA situation than those fighting for inclusion....while it's true that bows (including crossbows) will likely never be "the" herd control factor (excluding very urban areas/zones) they can play an important enough role IF we have enough bow hunters (yes including with crossbows) doing OUR job of herd control/conservation.....
> 
> Make no mistake about it, when crossbows are fought other means WILL be considered (and possibly implemented) now You may try to blame the crossbow inclusion folks, but that doesn't make it facts......
> 
> A crossbow IS a bow, you can deny the facts a million times over, you can talk about "user perception" (perhaps your bow organizations should cease in trying to make it anything but a bow and stop the confusion) It's NOT just "my using webster's either" , Federal law says they're bows, P-R says they're a bow, anyone without an anticrossbow agenda KNOWS they're a bow, guns don't usually have bent limbs shooting arrows via a BOW string.....archery shops sell crossbows but usually not guns and where stores sell both, you'll find the crossbows where........that's right with the Other Bows.....
> 
> I will agree we're not changing each other's minds at all, I will however remind you that so many others do read this and I believe there is a valuable lesson in their seeing at "heated" as this can get and as devoted as each of us are (albeit on opposite sides) that this Can actually be discussed in a civil manner ; and who knows some folks may actually learn a few facts in the process.....
> 
> As for PA , trust me this is about much more than crossbows now and I'm doing "my part" for the future of PA sportsmen/women (on both sides of this issue)....even though I seriously doubt anything will in the end be changed , despite the PA bow orgs best efforts
> 
> You may or may not know the PA bow org is fully responsible for causing the Pa Legislature to pull that bill out, it was no secret or surprise this would happen IF they pushed to try to change the last THREE votes of the BOC......THEY pushed Weaner to do this, despite the three year sunset provision, no matter where you stand on the PA crossbow inclusion that was a foolish move and a potentially costly one for PA Sportsmen/women.....sometimes it's best to let things be and not poke the bear........ IMHO
> 
> Also as I understand things the PA AG is already looking into several aspects of the latest vote........I won't go into specifics at this point as it's second hand and not totally confirmed but it is "interesting" stuff at this point..
> 
> One more important point......the "threat" was "IF this bill passes, I'll PUSH for a shorter archery season" from ONE member of the BOC......that's NOT saying it Will happen OR they even have the support (PA is a HUGE hunting state , do you REALLY believe that can happen , when it's obviously a threat to try to stop the PA Legislature from doing what they promised to do IF they did this new vote?)
> 
> I do not see that threat as viable at all!
> 
> Whether firearms may have crossbow characteristics is not relevant to this discussion, crossbows can NOT be "like guns" because when they were invented guns had never been , they were a type of bow, that's an indisputable fact....and "using" strykers and ar-15 type crossbows is entertaining the latter is not legal in most states as the lower receiver IS a firearm.....which no doubt you're aware of but still left that fact out to spin your cause even more , it's ok I understand why you needed to
> 
> Whether you like it or not , you can't (and be held credible) deny the booming deer herds that do exist in most states in the East especially, to "think" there will continue to be "bow only" seasons when we're losing hunters at alarming rates is at best a pipe dream.....gun hunters always have been the majority, they WILL get more time IF we don't do enough of our jobs.......
> 
> AM I claiming crossbows are "the answer" NO......I'm not sure there is "the answer", however losing hunters IS bad for us and whether some accept it or not crossbows DO aid in hunter recruitment and retention.....
> 
> 
> "I" don't use a crossbow, have no desire to, however I can find NO good and valid reason to fight my own kind or their choice of a bow in public bow seasons, I think bow orgs who are doing so , are doing so to their own demise and what they are trying so hard to protect (bow only seasons) WILL suffer at their own hands......
> 
> When the data proves there is NO difference in compounds (already legahat l) and crossbows (NO data confirms this even with flintlocks btw- NOT the same argument no matter how much you say it is) there is no good or valid reason to exclude one bow(and the thousands of new crossbow hunters) while allowing ALL others.......It's simply a matter of bow hunters (and bow orgs) shooting themselves in the foot "thinking" they're helping somehow, when in fact they're only making things they don't want to happen.....actually happen (like the BP season in VA)


United we stand and divided we fall. If there is one message here is that the anti's love us screwing each other over and then more. That way they can get a wedge between us. So if you want to have no season or very limited keep up the fighting. Steady


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