# York Triple Crown?



## BowLegged (Dec 24, 2012)

So how was the second leg of the triple crown at York? Who won?


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## Addictedshooter (Sep 19, 2009)

We left before the results were in. There were actually still a few groups out when we left. We had to hit the road back to Kingsville ( 4 hours).
The course was amazing with some real challenging shots and hilly terrain. The members at York were hospitable and lunch was great. One of our group had a Fit Bit Flex 
and it showed that we walked over 7 miles! On hilly terrain no less. I must be out of shape, being a flat lander from southern ON. 
I would love to shoot there every week. Loved it.


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## oktalotl (May 21, 2012)

The course was great. I believe they will (or have) put the results on YCB website. One of the golds is mine )). Yes, a little bit of walk between some targets, but it's ok, something different - why not. Several shots were very challenging and added to the whole fun day.


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## sheepdogg (Apr 16, 2014)

Any one seen results yet?


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## Durhampro (May 9, 2009)

Here are the scores from last weekends 3D shoot at York County. They should be posted on the YCB website by this weekend.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

some what surprised to see the K50 as the second highest participation 14 K50 to the MBR 18, overall scores indicate a challenging shoot


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## ArcherMan (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm not surprised at all. K50 is the future of 3D archery!


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Correction! It's the future of Fancy or lazy foam shooting! It is not the future of 3D archery because 3D archery is shot unmarked! I looked at the names that shot K50 and over 50% in the class are experienced 3D archers! It's just another class for people to jump into! 

But hey if it brings them out it's all good! Just don't call it 3D!


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

I think this is about to get good


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

It's a societal issue really, look at our youth sports or schools, everyone passes and gets a participation medal no matter how bad they do. There is no focus or drive on hard work and practice anymore! So k50 will grow for a while until someone dominates the class then attendance will go south and the weak liberal minds will try to find someway to screw it up more to appease their egos. It's really simple people, practice, work hard and the results will come! And if they don't then be honest with yourself and realize that sometimes you just aren't going to win every weekend. Hell I would love to be a paid pro but it's not in the cards for me so I do the best I can where I am competitive, I don't go out and try to change to game so I can play too!


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Damn Bandit! I didn't know Levi and all those guys in the states were just lazy!
It does not always come down to being lazy.
It comes down to how busy people are and how willing lots of people are not at blowing away arrows.
We all know your opinion on this subject and I am NOT trying to start a fight.
Just saying it's here. It's going to stay here so you may jus want suck it up and move on.
The constant ongoing pissing match on this website and others is exactly the reason I hate 3D in Ontario.
Play your game the way you want to and just leave the others alone.
And I know your probably gonna come back with some long winded lecture on how I'm a poor misled fool and crap like that.
So just save it for someone else and go play your game.
Let the rest of us have our fun the way we want to.

" So k50 will grow for a while until someone dominates the class then attendance will go south and the weak liberal minds will try to find someway to screw it up more to appease their egos. It's really simple people, practice, work hard and the results will come! And if they don't then be honest with yourself and realize that sometimes you just aren't going to win every weekend. "Quote from Bandits post

And by the way. Thanks for telling everyone they suck.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

3D shoots should either be marked or unmarked, no in between. I don't mind either but I find it strange seeing range finders at an unmarked shoot. Just my 2c.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Or maybe the K50 might be a feeder division to the unmarked side in the future or until they get comfortable with their judging abilities, the K50 scores indicate to me that they need a rangefinder just to go home with all their arrows instead of getting thrown to the wolves and going home with few to none, either way they are supporting the event the same as the rest are


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## Nockcracker (Apr 13, 2010)

Marked yardage or unmarked, we've lost sight of the main issue...
If we need to add a class for three legged aliens to help to grow our sport, so be it!
Some people may be discouraged by not being able to guess yardage, if this helps with attendance at 3d shoots then I'm all for it!

Cheers Bruno


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Nockcracker said:


> Marked yardage or unmarked, we've lost sight of the main issue...
> If we need to add a class for three legged aliens to help to grow our sport, so be it!
> Some people may be discouraged by not being able to guess yardage, if this helps with attendance at 3d shoots then I'm all for it!
> 
> Cheers Bruno



Exactly!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

ok lets be real here on average there are 4-5 shooters in the k50 class at any given 3-d shoot ..so this one shoot has high numbers ..lets see if the k50 shooters here travel to the other shoots around and participate.. we are not beating down the k50 class but building it up and making unrealistic statements don`t help the k 50 cause ..speak the truths ..on average 4-5 shooters in this class and how many in the first leg of the triple crown... real facts folks ... and lets be real a lot of people are not shooting the triple crown this year... numbers are down fact wise...


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

as per new class to improve numbers this has not happened numbers are down not up ...and people should shoot within their PERSONAL CAPABILITIES... shoot hunter at a closer distance.. and the names in the k 50 are not new but class cross overs.. majority wise...


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## ArcherMan (Feb 13, 2014)

Bow bandit said:


> It's a societal issue really, look at our youth sports or schools, everyone passes and gets a participation medal no matter how bad they do. There is no focus or drive on hard work and practice anymore! So k50 will grow for a while until someone dominates the class then attendance will go south and the weak liberal minds will try to find someway to screw it up more to appease their egos. It's really simple people, practice, work hard and the results will come! And if they don't then be honest with yourself and realize that sometimes you just aren't going to win every weekend. Hell I would love to be a paid pro but it's not in the cards for me so I do the best I can where I am competitive, I don't go out and try to change to game so I can play too!


Whaaaa.!?. Poor Bow Bunny.!?. Getting left behind in the time soon.?!.
Youth in school, hard work, Liberals, society, and laziness has very little to do with K50.!?. Believe it, or not if you choose--it is not about YOU YOU YOU, its about the archery community 
Looks like 14 archers in category -- pretty good!!!  
If you want to talk about laziness look in the mirror.!?. Hardly a specimen archer of our time.!?.
Good Luck.!?.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I invite everyone reading this to have a face to face conversation with me on this subject, I will say immediatley i am the biggest advocate for known yardage classes this province has. Bold? yes. Now the other side of the things, K50 is a start but its actually a failure within itself to cater to those trying to enter the sport. I have a lot to say on this subject, anyone at this wknds P&P shoot i would love to talk on this issue with you...After I finish rag-dolling the Bow-Bunny of course LOL.


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## G Skinner (Jan 23, 2012)

STFU ! Spinner ! Wish I had a reason to jump all over this post , but I don't even keep score (usually?) . To each their own ! ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!
GOOD LUCK and PLAY SAFE !
Glen


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Guys please remain calm! It's just my opinion that's all. I am not saying that marked yardage does not have a future, I am simply saying it's not 3D so let's call it something else  

The arrow comment is ridiculous shakey, I was watching the K50 archers miss targets on the weekend so let's be real! Yardage is not the issue! Levi does not shot gay 50 either so no I would not call him lazy!

It's not a feeder class Fiona when experienced archers are shooting it to try and grab a medal. 

As for archerman you had better introduce yourself at a tournament soon!!! Big mouth for a non existent entity! You see the difference Between you and me is that I will say it to your face and don't need to hide behind my keyboard! But the fact that I don't know who you are only reinforces the lack of skill you must live with daily! Your right it's not about ME because I don't shoot K50! You are a frigging genius!

Topper you and I have already discussed this and you and I both know one marked division will not grow the sport, you and I will have plenty of time to discuss this on the weekend in the peer groups and I warn you now you will bend to my will !!!


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Mostly I was bored at work thanks


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Every once in a while I need reminding as to why I stay away from the 3D circuit. Thanks.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Same reason I stay away from field! Yawn.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

just read all the posts had to change my depends as dribbled a bit from laughing..


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## ronperreault (Mar 24, 2013)

I have had a couple of small injuries and very little practice time until recently(hence the scores). The K50 has allowed me to still enjoy coming out to the 3d shoots and have fun. Isn't that the point. The *****in and moaning doesn't help, K50 exists period. Let's put it behind us and enjoy our sport. 

Ron

PS I'm putting the rangefinder away this weekend.


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## ronperreault (Mar 24, 2013)

Yeah I managed a miss this weekend. Rangefinder or not ya gotta remember to change your sight. :-(


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I bend for no one! lol, lets not implicate there is any "bending" going on on the course anyway. JUDGEMENT day is coming (teehee thats the name of my bow). 

All kidding aside, I do beleive we are on the same page as per k50 pros and cons. Like I say though, i beleive its all information best discussed in person and i thoroughly extend the invitation to all interested to hear it.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Hey Blake! 

How about for the purposes of Ontario 3D in this forum, K50 will be called "New 3D" and unmarked will be called "Classic 3D"?

Will that make you happy?


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Very much Stash! Glad someone gets it


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Don't worry topper I will coach ya through the target panic this weekend


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Stash I was thinking Fancy 3D for K 50 still sounds better and real 3D for the original.


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## Addictedshooter (Sep 19, 2009)

I'm going to shoot the next round standing backwards over my shoulder with a mirror. Is there a separate class for that? How many arrows should I bring?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Bow bandit said:


> Glad someone gets it


Oh, I don't "get it". I was just hoping I'd find something that might make you stop whining. But I should know better than to even try...


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## crkelly (Mar 17, 2011)

Don't you just love keyboard archery. At the push of a button it's a whole new game:darkbeer:


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Bottom line.
Shoot your game.
Have fun doing it.
Ignore what everyone else is doing.
And,If you are not having fun take a break
It's just archery people.
Ain't none of us getting rich doing it


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## ontario3-d'r (Feb 17, 2012)

I just cannot believe all the issues that people have about the K50, both good and bad. I just don't understand! Its just a new category. It is no different than when the Hunter classes were introduced a few years ago. I could understand the "regular 3-D" shooters would be upset if they were competing AGAINST the people with rangefinders, BUT THEY ARE NOT! The K50 has its own set of trophies, and they SHOOT AGAINST EACH OTHER. All the K50 class is doing is bringing more people to the event. Target shooters, that have never tried 3-D are now trying it. If the K50 brings 5 more shooters to an event, that just means more money for the club with entry fee, draw tickets, and hamburger sales. It's a win-win for everyone. If a "regular 3-D shooter" tries the K50 class, how is that any different than trying some other class. If a regular MBR or MBO shooter brings his/her trad bow to an event, it is NO Different!! Just because someone is generally an MBO shooter, does not mean that they are never allowed to shoot a different category. That is absurd. 

Now for the fun part!

I understand that 3-D, in its purest form, includes learning how to estimate range. I get it. However, there is a reason that Redding Trail Shoot gets hundreds and hundreds of shooters each year. It showcases pure archery talent. Everyone knows the distance to the target, so the best shooter wins. There are no variables. There is no doubt that you must be a good shooter and learn to judge yardage very well to win at a 3-D event. An archers shooting ability however, has absolutely nothing to do with judging yardage. An archer can make a perfect shot, but if your yardage is wrong, then you will hit low or high. An archer can shoot a less than perfect shot, but the yardage is right, will still hit the ten ring on a 3-D target. The ten ring on an buffalo target is the same size as the 7-8-9 and 10 ring on a FITA face shot at the same distance. What is a ten on the buffalo, is a 7 on a FITA face. There is a reason that when Ontario's world class archers shoot the K50 class, they shoot more 11's, they are amazing shooters -period! Instead of the "regular 3-D" people complaining about the K50, maybe they should come to an outdoor target event. Take the range estimate out of the equation. Try standing on the line with Perkins, Trillus, and Fagan. See how you stack up against pure shooting ability!


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Change IS coming to Ontario 3D archery everyone, I promise it.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

No doubt those guys are world class, I've seen it first hand. But let's face it, to win at 3D Provincials/Nationals or any other big shoot, 10 isn't good enough, you need to be hitting close to 50% 11s, which are the size of a twoonie or less, that can't happen without some shooting talent. Usually it comes down to 3 or 4 targets on a given day that make the difference. The reason I am so uncomfortable with K50 on the same course is because of the rampant use of cell phones while people are on the course. I can't help but feel uncomfortable when see someone with a rangefinder texting away, which I witnessed several times at YCB on Sunday. If somebody has the edge on those three or for targets, that is all the difference in the world, 12 or 14 points!!


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## ArcherMan (Feb 13, 2014)

Robert Piette said:


> No doubt those guys are world class, I've seen it first hand. But let's face it, to win at 3D Provincials/Nationals or any other big shoot, 10 isn't good enough, you need to be hitting close to 50% 11s, which are the size of a twoonie or less, that can't happen without some shooting talent. Usually it comes down to 3 or 4 targets on a given day that make the difference. The reason I am so uncomfortable with K50 on the same course is because of the rampant use of cell phones while people are on the course. I can't help but feel uncomfortable when see someone with a rangefinder texting away, which I witnessed several times at YCB on Sunday. If somebody has the edge on those three or for targets, that is all the difference in the world, 12 or 14 points!!


Lol.!?. Anyone can text distance to another archer.!?. You do not need a rangefinder

Text test: hey bow bunny I shot number five the deer for 35 and cut hit the ten ring high.!?.

It makes no difference rangefinder or not Maybe all 3d should he marked if unmarked archers are texting distance.?!.


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## ArcherMan (Feb 13, 2014)

ontario3-d'r said:


> I just cannot believe all the issues that people have about the K50, both good and bad. I just don't understand! Its just a new category. It is no different than when the Hunter classes were introduced a few years ago. I could understand the "regular 3-D" shooters would be upset if they were competing AGAINST the people with rangefinders, BUT THEY ARE NOT! The K50 has its own set of trophies, and they SHOOT AGAINST EACH OTHER. All the K50 class is doing is bringing more people to the event. Target shooters, that have never tried 3-D are now trying it. If the K50 brings 5 more shooters to an event, that just means more money for the club with entry fee, draw tickets, and hamburger sales. It's a win-win for everyone. If a "regular 3-D shooter" tries the K50 class, how is that any different than trying some other class. If a regular MBR or MBO shooter brings his/her trad bow to an event, it is NO Different!! Just because someone is generally an MBO shooter, does not mean that they are never allowed to shoot a different category. That is absurd.
> 
> Now for the fun part!
> 
> I understand that 3-D, in its purest form, includes learning how to estimate range. I get it. However, there is a reason that Redding Trail Shoot gets hundreds and hundreds of shooters each year. It showcases pure archery talent. Everyone knows the distance to the target, so the best shooter wins. There are no variables. There is no doubt that you must be a good shooter and learn to judge yardage very well to win at a 3-D event. An archers shooting ability however, has absolutely nothing to do with judging yardage. An archer can make a perfect shot, but if your yardage is wrong, then you will hit low or high. An archer can shoot a less than perfect shot, but the yardage is right, will still hit the ten ring on a 3-D target. The ten ring on an buffalo target is the same size as the 7-8-9 and 10 ring on a FITA face shot at the same distance. What is a ten on the buffalo, is a 7 on a FITA face. There is a reason that when Ontario's world class archers shoot the K50 class, they shoot more 11's, they are amazing shooters -period! Instead of the "regular 3-D" people complaining about the K50, maybe they should come to an outdoor target event. Take the range estimate out of the equation. Try standing on the line with Perkins, Trillus, and Fagan. See how you stack up against pure shooting ability!


Wow.!?. Sense is here


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

ArcherMan said:


> Lol.!?. Anyone can text distance to another archer.!?. You do not need a rangefinder
> 
> Text test: hey bow bunny I shot number five the deer for 35 and cut hit the ten ring high.!?.
> 
> It makes no difference rangefinder or not Maybe all 3d should he marked if unmarked archers are texting distance.?!.


Cell phones and cameras are not allowed at sanctioned shoots.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

There is also a big difference in true ARC Rangefinder reading and whatever someone shot the target for. As Ontario 3-dr said lots of variables in that second one, non in the first.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Tim the Redding trail is NOT 3D! It's a modified field shoot period! Secondly the K50 archers at the ASA events are not even shooting scores near as high as the unmarked guys on the same range so who has more talent! 

Target shooters are better huh? This is why the last time mr World champion fita guy Dietmar shot an IBO event has came in last place in the masters class of old pros with a 350 with 3X! You fools need to get out of the province a little more to see what really is going on instead of reading it on the internet or watching YOUTube. 

Spin it anyway you want K50 is just another target event promoted by target archers and it will not grow the sport PERIOD!!!

To compare ASA to K50 in Ontario is ridiculous the are not even close to the same game!

How about reducing costs! 87$ dollars plus membership to shoot the OAA 3D championships is a little steep!

How about getting the kids to put down the smart phones and video games, almost no kids shooting anymore. The IBO promotes archery in the schools because they are the future not K50.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Cell phones are not allowed period! So if you see someone with one have them disqualified! I never carry mine on the range and if I see you with one archer man you will be disqualified!


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## DODGE-3D (Feb 17, 2005)

I think ArcherMan should should step up to the plate and shoot with the Bandit.


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## BowLegged (Dec 24, 2012)

Strange that none of the target archers ever call each other cheaters to compensate for their own inadequate archery skills. Why would someone assume that the use of a cell phone is to cheat? Are 3D shooters really that insecure? It must come from wearing camo and pretending to hunt foam bambi's. Maybe they have been eating what they have been shooting?

I know lots of shooters that use their cell phones to keep their sight marks on they also use them to keep score. Welcome to the 23rd century!


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

I hope to try K50 some day. I fully support it. It can draw more participants to 3D and that is always a good think. I completely see both parts of the argument and to be honest, Cheaters will always cheat. Cell phones can be a bad thing if people are cheating with them. Yes lots of people use their iphones for sight marks (Archers Mark). We just need to make sure people aren't texting the distances to other shooters.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Just for the record, phones today have rangefinder apps! So please only post when you actually participate in the sport or actually know something about it! The same reason cameras are not allowed! Thank you.


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## ontario3-d'r (Feb 17, 2012)

Blake, every one knows that Redding is a target event, we all know that. I am just pointing out the exceptional attendance of the event. Isn't it amazing how the top target shooters always seem to win the Redding shoot. Guys like Broadwater and Perkins. Pure Shooting Ability

The K50 at an ASA event is being shot by people learning the sport. That is why the scores are lower. Give Levi a rangefinder. I guarantee he shoots 50 up (or more) on 40 targets. Pure SHOOTING ABILITY!! Levi's "misses" are high or low of the 12 ring because he had the wrong yardage. It has absolutely nothing to do with his SHOOTING ABILITY.

Ontario's top target shooters are absolutely better SHOOTERS than the top 3D shooters - Sorry to burst your bubble. Dietmar is one of them. If Dietmar shot a marked event against those same guys, he would wipe the floor with them. Dietmar has virtually shot no unmarked 3D in the last 8 years. I wonder how good your range estimating would be if you shot no unmarked 3D for 8 years. Unbelievable the way you think.

It is very difficult to have a real debate with you because you think the entire archery world revolves around 3D. The fact is, that there are way more target archers than there are 3D. FITA has way more membership than the ASA and IBO combined. Even in Ontario, there has been more shooters at the Target Championships than at the 3D Championships for many years now.

The K50 will absolutely grow the sport Blake. You saw it at the 2nd leg. How many of those K50 shooters would not be there if the K50 was not available. Most of them. York county was able to make hundreds of dollars more because those shooters showed up- PERIOD. From a clubs point of view, do you want 60 at the event or 75. The more people the better. 

As far as archery being promoted in schools, that is NASP. 12.5 million kids have tried archery in their school because of NASP. I am the new NASP co-ordinator in Ontario. Next week, the OFAH will have the honour to train 20 different teachers, from all over the province, the correct way to implement archery into curriculum. That means that as of September, hundreds of kids across the province will learn about the sport that we love so much. (and I'm just getting started.)

We all have our opinions, and the right to express them. Just too bad that you are always right, and we are always wrong.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Good thread, I am learning a lot about other aspects of archery, thanks.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Just a mild correction Tim, the K50 is a PRO level class in the ASA. They also have K45 and K40(open C) plus a host of others that are half and half. Im just saying, do not argue what you do not know either. Be real man.
Blake and I are on relatively the same page as per K50, I am the biggest known distance 3d advocate, he is not, BUT we do AGREE on the failure of K50 to do what it should which is introduce people to the sport that otherwise would not have had the confidence to do so. You take brand new shooters and shoot them from advanced level shooter stakes. BRILLIANT! NO, foolish at best. its great to cater to yourself and the other perkins', dietmars and what have yous of the world but otherwise is a failure. Because its used wrong. 

We do not think the world revolves around 3d, but OUR archery worlds do. Myself, Blake and others. I dont shoot fita or target or whatever else because im sorry to say but it bores the crap out of me. But why should that be a knock to you? Its simpley not. That is why we speak passionate on the subject of 3d, and like real men we talk with each other face to face rather than through the keyboard to hammer out our differences in opinions. We have, and we have worked toward a positive outcome.


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

As a long time OAA member I am going to wade into the shallow end of the gene pool here and offer my two bits. With all of the events I have attended I can not name a new archer who has come into 3d because of k50. There are a bunch who shoot that class to be more competitive in a class outside of open, mbr etc.
...if you want to call it an entry level class It Is Not. Are the numbers in this class Up...No they are not so all the argument over the past two years has been a waste of time.

!!!If you really want an entry level known class it should probably be K40!!!

Next, many of you out there go on and on about fita and rules in other circuits. The whole reason this debate and bickering rages on is because the OAA seems to be poorly managed in regards to 3d. This is not a personal attack but the current situation reflects how things have been managed over the past 10 years. We finally got our rules aligned to the IBO,FCA and we go and bring in K50
seriously? we really need open, bowhunter open, cash open, mbr, hunter AND K50 ??
its no wonder its such a mess. The bloody clubs don't want to deal with this crap any more!

And before you all blast me about What I do to run a shoot...the response from my Board when I brought it up was "let us know when you want to run it so I will be Unavailable"

I personally don't have an issue with known yardage in 3d, I don't really think it should be run with unknown but that's my opinion. In fact my personal belief is there are too many classes and we should set stakes by distance and not equipment...

As for people bringing up Perkins and so on Please Give Me A Break!! This debate has Zero to do with who are the Best archers. If you want to debate that here you go, Levi Morgan is the best, at Known, unknown, target and what ever else you can shoot with a compound bow. He pulls out what is essentially a hunting bow and is on the podium at almost every event. Any you know what Perkins, AF and Dietmar have stayed out of this debate to my knowledge. Good on them.

you want to know how to fix this mess? The people that have so much to say regarding 3D should actually go out and shoot some of the events, k50 or any other class. If you don't shoot 3d than imo you have nothing to add.
next, lets start focusing on bringing out the kids. If we don't start to get kids back on the 3d range we will not have anyone to continue this sport no matter the rules.

some ideas I can put forth...Lets have a few 30 target family events. maybe 2 stakes, 25 y max and a 45 y max, bring your range finders if you want. SOUND GOOD??

I have shot pins, scope, cash, bowhunter, outdoors, indoors, field, fita, 3d, marked and unmarked and I have enjoyed all of it.
Why don't we all stop pissing on each other and give some kudos..
Ted-way to go! doing what's needed to grow the sport.
Topper-for giving a damn to get involved in a positive way
Rob Ulrich- for being committed to his daughter enough to make her one of the next ambassadors of our sport,
And to all the clubs and people who make 3d a priority at their clubs so that all of us can get out and enjoy the sport we love.
Most of all to every person, even Blake lol, who gets off their ass and dedicates their time to compete in any form of 3d. What 3d needs most of all is US to continue to grow the sport.

now where did I put my Running Long Jump shoes???damn!


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Well said Dave.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

no k50 at pand p and numbers highest in province I think last year 125 shooters and no k50.. a well run good prizes and a fun shoot ..bring numbers out.. period ...


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## DssBB (Feb 21, 2010)

Great post Dave.

If the OAA really wants to open up 3D archery to new archers, then a K50 is not the class to introduce them to it. Archers new to the sport or families with younger kids will struggle shooting 3D targets out to 40 or 50 yards regardless of knowing the distances and may easily get discouraged. The K50 class is great way to allow experienced archers who have not yet developed the skills to range targets an opportunity participate and enjoy what 3D archery offers. 
We do need to have more opportunities for kids or families to attend club events or tournaments as you have suggested Dave if we wish to keep 3D growing. Having tournament courses that are laid out which younger or older shooters will struggle with or become easily exhausted on needs to also be considered to ensure continued participation year after year.


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## greygrouse (Mar 22, 2012)

How about K50 for archers from the other 2 disciplines and Hunter class for the uninitiated? As for Bowlegged's comments concerning what 3D archers wear and eat, show up at Durham later this month. I have a foam recipe for you. I'll be the guy in the camo shirt.

John.


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm seeing some good ideas in this post. Seriously I am. I am sure most of you have heard of the Rhinehart R100. What if a club put on that type of shoot. Get some random draw prizes. Have simple awards for score achieved, Like the R100. Maybe some "interesting" shots or targets....

I know some people want to compete, but is the real idea to participate? To get people out and have fun with their bows? If you want to compete bring 3 of your buddies and shoot for a beer or supper after the shoot. Who needs another medal or trophy?

I'm not baiting anyone with this post. I am serious. If you want to "share" and tell your people in your group the distance.... go for it... no biggie. Shoot what you brought. No classes or age groups. I think there are enough competitive shoots in the province to fill the need of the real 3D competitors and the truly serious ones travel state side. 

What do you think?


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

I was thinking that a Redding Trail type shoot might be popular. Utilizing standard 3D targets and placing an Orange dot over the 11, with marked distances (like field) and stakes for beginer, intermidiate and advanced. No equipment divisions, you shoot what you bring, and the classes are by stake. A place like YCB which has great terrain and distance could do a really good job of a fun shoot like that. It gives people a little bit of novelty, something a little beyond the average 3D or Field shoot.

What I personally miss about the big tournaments that used to be held in YCB and Kitchener a number of years ago when they used to attract really big numbers, is the Vendors and booths. They seem to give it that big tournament feel, almost like there was more going on then just a tournament, it was an event. There needs to be more of that now a days. This kind of thing doesn't cost the club anything, but would go a long in offering that little extra to get people to come out, again it adds that little bit of novelty.


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## peregrine82 (Aug 25, 2007)

Interesting that you bring up the Redding format. I have flown a trial balloon for a mini Redding at Durham for our 2015 charity tournament. Strictly a fun and family affair with orange dots on targets and all

marked yardage. Won't be able to do a 102 yard bigfoot but we certainly can have a few 80 yarders. You are right, there are enough serious 3D events in the Province and one or two Rinehart or Redding

style events may be very popular.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I have also had a similar idea but utilizing the asa scoring format of risk and reward with the lower 12 being the orange dot and marked yardages. Theres the target, heres the yardage and the dot, now hit it---just dont drop out a half inch and take an 8! lol. would be awesome fun. One stake, two classes. Competition and fun, with a walk-up clause for beginners in fun division.


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## DODGE-3D (Feb 17, 2005)

I have shot Redding and it was great,1500 shooters a day.Good idea


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## postman99 (May 9, 2008)

as far as getting new archers involved why not just have a non competition class with say 30 yard max? its close enough that most beginners would feel confident and the scores don't get turned in for medals, they just shoot get experience and join the regular classes when they are comfortable. just a thought


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## ontario3-d'r (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess I am not understanding the intent of the K50. A couple of times, people have posted that the K50 shooters are new shooters, and would have trouble shooting the 40-50 yard targets. This is where everybody has lost me. The K50 as I see it, is bringing some target and field archers to the 3D events. Experienced shooters who have never shot 3D, now have no worry about damaging their arrows. They know the distance. What is wrong with that. Target archers who want to try 3D should not be punished by wrecking arrows all because of a skill that they have not learned. Yardage estimating. Try and think back to our first few tournaments. We wrecked a lot of arrows in our learning to judge yardage. In my experience, "new" or inexperienced 3D shooters, who want to learn the skill of yardage estimating, compete in the hunter class as it was intended. Closer shooting stakes. Target and field archers are not giving up their preferred type of archery to compete in 3D full time. They are just coming to an event that they have not tried before. If they stay at 3D, and learn yardage estimating, GREAT.


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## reroth (Feb 7, 2006)

Ontario3-d'r
great post, yes K50 does help save arrows....for the Target people and for the people who would like to try 3D
first 3D I shot, lost 6 arrows and went home at lunch...not a fun day...and $50.00
K50 is here to stay, do we need K40, ya maybe....But................
for K50, just because there is a stake in the ground.....dosen't mean you have to shoot from there 
not missing and not breaking/looseing arrows is what K50 is all about
anyone trying 3D, you can walk up to the target untill you feel comfortable with the distance and shoot the target
it's all about hitting the target people....... 
why don't some of you realise this ?????
c ya

Rick


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Here's a sharp left turn while staying on the topic - why do they refer to each of the 3 events of the Triple Crown as a "leg"? I mean, if it's a "triple crown", shouldn't each event be the first crown, second crown, third crown? 

I can see calling each event a leg if it was a "triple stool".


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## mprus (Oct 11, 2009)

If the purpose of the K50 is not to lose arrows why not just install carpet backstops at each target like at the Waterloo County club... then u still have the fun of real 3d without worrying about losing arrows!


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## postman99 (May 9, 2008)

I'm sorry maybe I don't understand? if you shoot the k50 you don't have to shoot from the stake? you can move up so you don't lose arrows? Isnt the k50 a legit class that the scores count towards awards? and we maybe need a k40 as well? what about a k10? then no one would lose any arrows!!! im sorry but when I started shooting 3d 25+ years ago losing or wrecking arrows was and still is part of the game!! I understand about getting new archers involved and coming out to tournaments but no matter if your new or an experienced target archer we all look at the scores. so if you group a new shooter in a class with guys like Fagan and Perkins isn't it a little depressing to look at your score at the end of the day and see you got last by 200 points! new shooters need to be in a class where only scores are kept for personal knowledge. let beginners shoot from whatever stake they are comfortable with and scores do not count!! 
Rick


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

I think the newer shooters would rather shoot with or get beat by Fagan/Perkins D etc by 200 points than go home with a bunch of junk. We added a provisional class to see if participation warrented it which will be voted on again for acceptance, but did take one class and turn it into three but that's ok????


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## reroth (Feb 7, 2006)

Postman 99 and others
shooting the K 50, in my mind is the way to go with new shooters for 3D
I don't understand why you would have a problem with new shooters walking up from the stakes
you mentionedhaving a K10..............what ??????
loosing arrows is part of the game, I think not for someone at there first 3D shoot
oh yes, I have been shooting 3D for 20 plus years as well.........and have lost lots of arrows, didn't have carbon arrows back then thou
as far as looking at the scores, yes we all do, but do you think someone new to this sport really cares about there score 
I would think new shooters would care more about not missing a target and going home with most of their arrows
which will hopefully bring them back
postman99 and others.......why is everyone so concerned about scores from a person just trying 3D in the K50
of course their scores should be posted, why do you care if they walked up on a couple of targets
ya it's nice to in the top three in one of the cazillion classes offered, but I think most people shoting K50 just like to shoot 3D and have fun
sorry, but your not going to get rich at it
as FiFi posted, K50 still has to have a final vote at the AGM
this is getting old really fast.............

Rick


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

I agree. Getting old fast.
I don't shoot a lot of 3D.
But I can tell you from talking with people that threads like this are part of what is keeping "new" people from coming out.
Most thing I hear is "I don't want to go out just so I can listen to the BS that I read on AT"
So what does that tell ya??
I see some people very apposed to K50.
Does that mean they are apposed to newbies coming in and maybe getting better than them?
Maybe some people see there time in the "3D" spotlight dwindling.
I really don't care either way.
I just wish some people could let go and move on!
:deadhorse This crap is getting very old.
If you can't have fun at archery(yes there is more to archery than 3d) then stay home so the rest of us can enjoy a quiet day on the range

Shawn


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## Grey Eagle (May 23, 2002)

ontario3-d'r said:


> I guess I am not understanding the intent of the K50. A couple of times, people have posted that the K50 shooters are new shooters, and would have trouble shooting the 40-50 yard targets. This is where everybody has lost me. The K50 as I see it, is bringing some target and field archers to the 3D events. Experienced shooters who have never shot 3D, now have no worry about damaging their arrows. They know the distance. What is wrong with that. Target archers who want to try 3D should not be punished by wrecking arrows all because of a skill that they have not learned. Yardage estimating. Try and think back to our first few tournaments. We wrecked a lot of arrows in our learning to judge yardage. In my experience, "new" or inexperienced 3D shooters, who want to learn the skill of yardage estimating, compete in the hunter class as it was intended. Closer shooting stakes. Target and field archers are not giving up their preferred type of archery to compete in 3D full time. They are just coming to an event that they have not tried before. If they stay at 3D, and learn yardage estimating, GREAT.


Similar to my thoughts on this, I never looked at the K50 class as a class solely for total newbs. I thought the intention was to encourage archers at a whole to come out and participate in a 3D format tournament. 

Taking the yardage estimation out of the equation certainly would encourage newbs, experienced target archers, 3D archers whom don't have the time or desire to learn and maintain estimation skills to come out and participate. I don't understand how anyone could find fault with that principle, and the numbers tell the tale......... there is interest in the class.

Is it 3D.....no, it's marked distance 3D. So what? As long as people are out flinging arrows, socializing, and the clubs are benefiting what's not to like? 

If I were to take an interest in tournament shooting again, and I ventured onto a 3D course, I'd likely shoot the K50. For a few reasons, one would be that my yardage estimation skills would be the weak point in my game right now and it would just frustrate me to shoot an unknown distance class. That frustration would not drive me to "practice more", as I don't have the time or desire to do so, it would just stop me from playing, and who benefits then? Second, I suspect that those that I would want to shoot with, and socialize with, would also be in that class. For I like most took up this sport as a form of social entertainment, a fact that I think is lost on a few of the purists around here.

And as a former "3D'r" I'm sure those same purists would label me as someone who can't cut it in real 3D and are looking for an easy out......................Pfffffttt! I wouldn't care......... I'd be flinging arrows with my friends ;^)

Time will tell how the K50 (or known distance in general) affects 3D at a whole. Maybe it will provide a springboard to those looking to get into, or get back into, the deep end of 3D........ maybe it will result in the evolution of 3D to a sport where yardage estimation is eliminated............ and maybe it will just remain as a option available to folks who want to come out and enjoy the day with a little less frustration.

Whatever floats your boat, enjoy the day!

Cheers

GE


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I'll be honest, I didn't know K50 was designed to bring in new shooters. I would have thought a "guest class" was better for that. They can then shoot from any peg they choose and feel comfortable at while honing their distance judgement skills.


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

And I thought the reason for Hunter class was to get new shooters started in 3D.
Known 50 to me seems geared towards FITA and Field shooters to see what 3D is all about, without the distance estimation.
Any way you look at it, it is ALL target archery of one sort or another...


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

thunderbolt said:


> And I thought the reason for Hunter class was to get new shooters started in 3D.
> Known 50 to me seems geared towards FITA and Field shooters to see what 3D is all about, without the distance estimation.
> Any way you look at it, it is ALL target archery of one sort or another...


YES that is exactly why hunter class came to be. in the ibo it is considered a Beginner class as apposed to amateur or pro.
as for walking up from the stake, the point of the sport is to shoot from the stake, as well as for safety reasons because not all potential shot positions between the furthest stake and the target would be safe.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

Bigjono said:


> I'll be honest, I didn't know K50 was designed to bring in new shooters. I would have thought a "guest class" was better for that. They can then shoot from any peg they choose and feel comfortable at while honing their distance judgement skills.


I was at the agm when the k50 was tabled and the intent was to expose target archers to 3d without loosing or breaking 45$ arrows, as a result better the 3d turn out at tournaments, maybe entice some to partake on a regular basis for the enjoyment of something different. it was never about new comers, that was stated by the nay sayer as an argument to appose it. 

the intent was genuine for the better of 3d I believe, however, reading through this it appears 3d is booming and can afford to put down and shy away all sorts of people. 

wayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

wanemann said:


> I was at the agm when the k50 was tabled and the intent was to expose target archers to 3d without loosing or breaking 45$ arrows, as a result better the 3d turn out at tournaments, maybe entice some to partake on a regular basis for the enjoyment of something different. it was never about new comers, that was stated by the nay sayer as an argument to appose it.
> 
> the intent was genuine for the better of 3d I believe, however, reading through this it appears 3d is booming and can afford to put down and shy away all sorts of people.
> 
> wayne


That makes more sense Wayne. I know the guys in FS over in the UK cringe every time they lose or break an X10, and that is long range unmarked 3D. If the class helps bring across shooters from other disciplines then it's a good idea. 3D here is not in great shape overall here so why not.


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## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

I'll say it again.....to many classes.....period.

All you need is wheels pro, wheels fun, no-wheels

Just shoot and have fun!

JD


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