# Shelf vs. Elevated Rest



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

A rest is much more forgiving. Did you reset you nock point when you installed the rest? Did you check your center shot setting? Stick on rests used without plungers often come with double stick material of different thickness. You need to choose the one that gives you the right center shot, just like you set your strike plate distance when shooting off the shelf. You can also do this with an inexpensive plunger. I think the Sage has a plunger hole.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

I did set up a new nock point (it was a new string, too)...I tried to put it so the arrow was about 1/8" above perpendicular. This rest just came with one adhesive (I think) and I used that. I did not consider any kind of centering. The sage does have a hole there. They guy on the phone from lancaster recommended this kind of rest vs. a plunger type because he said he thought with this bow I would have to be as close as possible to the inside of the center cut, if that makes sense. Maybe this is related to my problem?


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## scout4 (May 18, 2010)

I've shot off the shelf for many years and have recently switched to shooting from an elevated rest. It did take a little while to get use to it but once I did I am now more accurate with better arrow flight than ever. I like shooting with it! 
scout4


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

1/8 inch above perpendicular is pretty low. You can go 3/8 or so split, and up to 3/4 shooting three under. I actually tuned best on my bow at 13/16, but the bow is 70 inches.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Space, 

In essence, changing to the elevated rest has presented you with not only a new bow, but also a new sight picture. Many variables have just been changed. Your string changed too ... but what matters now resides within other areas of adjustment. 

Should you switch back to the shelf? Nah ... not yet. When this current dust settles, you may find you shoot better than ever with the rest. May as well tackle the endeavor while you're there and live with it for at least a short while until you can decide for yourself whether or not you like shooting that way. 

An elevated rest is every bit as accurate and set-uppable as a shelf rest. In your case, the shaft's offset away from center may be quite different from the offset you had with the shelf. This affects the dynamic spine of the arrow's flight and is a tuning parameter. You may need to think back (or hold some old shelf material in place on the shelf) to compare what your offset difference is with the elevated rest. If further outboard, you are stiffening the dynamic spine in flight - if closer inboard to the riser, you are weakening the dynamic spine in flight. You can adjust the offset towards the riser by taking the adhesive tape off of the rest and using Barge cement (or any contact cement) to glue the naked rest directly to the riser. You can adjust the offset outboard by layering the adhesive tape under the rest.

All easy on and off for experimentation if necessary. 

Your nock location on the serving is critical. You may find that it is radically different from your previous location. Experiment from too-high (like an inch) and move down in 1/8" increments until too low (like zero). Cut thin strips of masking or painters tape to use a temporary nocks measured with a bow square to the various locations you explore. Take notes at each nock location. You may witness rising shots, diving shots, porpoising shots ... and straight shots as you move through the various locations. Go back to the best-shooting location and live with it for a while with the temporary tape. Once settled and satisfied, then go ahead and place a permanent nock on the serving in that spot. 

You mention nocking about 1/8" above center (I assume your nock is under the nock locator here). Commonly mentioned nocking locations often run higher than that, such as 4/8, 5/8, 6/8. Split-finger to three-under switcheroos often require the nocking point to be raised a bit in some cases. Nothing is etched or predictable here ... your own experimentation will find the sweet spot fairly quickly.

The new sight picture will adjust to your aim quite quickly with repetition. The bow's feel may be a tad different during the shot sequence since your angle geometries are slightly different with the arrow a touch higher on the riser. This is subtle but significant until you acclimate to it with repetition.

Hope this helps a bit. Think it out and smack it around until it works for you, and then give that elevated rest a good trial. You may or may not take to it, but at least you've given it a solid and proper whack.

Good luck.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

ok. There is a lot to digest here. Maybe I will stick with the rest for awhile and play with the nock location. Thanks for the advice.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

Move to a ILF riser.


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## davidflorida (Jun 21, 2012)

Well at least you are seeing s difference in arrow flight between the 3 sets you have . To me that is a positive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

why is that a positive?


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

Thin Man, I re-read your response this morning. Thanks for the advice. There is some good information there and I am going to try to experiment with some of the things you suggest. Starting with the nocking point being higher (and I am shooting 3 under). Also I didnt really think about it but the center of the arrow on the riser would have changed quite a bit because in addition to the thickness of the part that is on the riser and the tape, the rest I have has a little "post" that comes up from the rest, so that the arrow is at least 1/4 inch from the inside of the riser...that would be a big change, I assume. Thanks again.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

So, I put the old string back on to eliminate one more variable. It had a nocking point at about 1/2" above the shelf, so I moved it up to about 1/2" above the rest. I noticed when I put the bow square on the old string that the old string must be thicker, so presumable more strands than the new string I got (14 strand) so maybe that makes a different. The brace height of the old string was probably 3/8" bigger too. Anyway, you get the idea. Thanks for the advice.


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## sjt85 (Sep 2, 2014)

spaceboy - how is your nock fit on the new string? I found my nocks are fairly tight on new strings, and yours may be too - especially if you increased strand count....


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

After a little shooting both sets of carbon arrows are shooting much better, the wood ones are still a little off up and to the left, but only a few inches not 12 inches like before. I think the string and nock point was the biggest factor. One piece of bad news though, I think I messed up my old string trying to get the brass nock point off...that thing was really on there. It looks like maybe one strand of the string is torn under the serving there. How bad is that? Can I keep using it or is that a bad idea? This string is definitely larger than the new one I ordered. The new string was a D97 Stone Mountain 14 strand string, 62". I assume the string that was on here was the one that came with the sage as the guy I bought it from only had it for less than a year.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

It's the opposite...the new string is thinner than the old. The new string is 14 strand, but I dont know what the old one was. The arrows nocks all fit differently. With the old string the predators are tight, the warriors just right and the wood a little loose. With the new string, the predator is just about right, the warrior a little loose and the wood very loose.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I'd add a second nocking point below your nocks. This will eliminate any possibility of the nock sliding down the string on release, especially the loose ones.

Do you have a nocking pliers? They are almost mandatory if you are going to use brass nocking points. They eliminated the possible damage removing an old one and make the new one nice and round and tight.

You could also consider tied in nocking points, it's all I use these days. I use BCY 3D and a series of overhand knots alternating on the string. Do a search on "tie in nock points" for plenty of options.

Eventually you will want to tune your bow to find out exactly where the correct nocking point is...http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

I do have nocking pliers, but they seem really crappy and I think it was using the removing part of the pliers (which are really sharp) which messed up the string (of course I could have been doing it wrong). I am just going to use masking tape now though...that seems to work ok and it is very easy to move for experimentation. Tie in could be good to though.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

*I was looking at my Sage bows. I'm not sure if there are different models but, none of the three I have, have enough cut out to accept a plunger and still set it up for center shot. As noted in "Shooting the Stick Bow" Chapter 7, page 107. *


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

My rather worthless unauthoritative opinion is as follows.

Off the shelf is best when:
-Simplicity is among your highest priorities,
-Being fairly close to foolproof is among your highest priorities, 
-You are satisfied with being able to fairly frequently hit a 4-inch diameter sized rubber ball at 25 yards or less as being sufficient fun accuracy for you, and
-You are satisfied with practical accuracy sufficient to have some successes taking game at 25 yards or less.

An elevated rest is best when maximum accuracy is your highest priority in order to achieve your personal archery fun and satisfaction.

Off the shelf is best for me.

Do not allow your own personal archery fun, your archery goals, and your archery ethics to be restricted or controlled by the fun, goals, and ethics of others. It seems sensible to let others influence you after considering their thoughts and opinions, but the final conclusions are your own.

If you stay with the elevated rest, then others can provide much better advice in regard to solving your current temporary setback. Actually others can also provide much better advice for improving your off the shelf accuracy.


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

fallhunt said:


> My rather worthless unauthoritative opinion is as follows.
> 
> Off the shelf is best when:
> -Simplicity is among your highest priorities,
> ...


*
WORD. You have to be honest with your archery goals.*


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

equilibrium–I do not have a plunger type rest–just a stick on. I think you are right that there is not room for one on the Sage.

Fallhunt–thanks for your worthless advice! I hear what you are saying, and all of the goals you list, would be fine with me at least for now. But right now I will mess with the rest some more and see how it goes. Thanks!


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## TCL_123 (May 16, 2016)

I shoot most of my bows off the shelf, but I typically put a fairly steep radius on the shelf to reduce fletching contact - similar to Morrison and Fox bows.

I also have a "target" Warf recurve with an elevated rest. Of the two, the rest is definitely more forgiving when it comes to arrow flight. I find that I need to do some more serious tuning to get the arrows flying well off the shelf/reducing fletching contact etc.


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

IMHO if you do not have enough of (cut past centershot) in your bow to take advantage of a plunger/flipper rest you are better off shooting off the shelf.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

That makes a certain amount of sense...as the stick on rest probably does push the arrow out farther from center?


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

Also, back to the string questions...if the 14 strand string I ordered is smaller than the one that is on there, what should I get. According to the rec in the shooting the stickbow book, 14 strand is already bigger than what he recommends for a 30# bow. I should read more about strings I guess but for now I will stick with the string I had.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Space, 

Your 14-strand D97 will work perfectly well with your bow. I have 14-strand D97 all over my bows of similar weight and it performs brilliantly. 

The stock factory strings that Samick ships with all their bows are over-built ... ropes, if you will. I assume that this is so they can use one string model (remember - they are stringing multiple thousands of bows a year) across the entire draw weight spectrum that is safe for the uber-heavy bows at the minimum. The light bows seem to get the same string. Many folks (myself included) usually recommend that a new archer buying their first Samick go ahead (and pay for if necessary) and have the retailer swap out a more appropriate string for the draw weight. A 14-strand D97 falls into that category. (I've bought many Samicks and immediately tossed the stock string and made a new string to taste.)

If your arrow nocks aren't securing to the serving adequately, you may need to have the string served with a thicker serving ... a common procedure. But that ain't the string's fault ... nock fit is attended to by combining the desired string construction with the necessary serving to achieve the proper nock fit. Once you hit your combo ... you're done for the long haul. Later, you may end up with a serving tool and a spool of the correct serving so that you can reserve when needed. Very brief learning curve, and done in just a very few minutes ... which keeps your bow out of the shop and always in your hands at the range.

There are many string materials and strand-count formulas (ranging from uber-thin on up) that you can experiment with down the road. You may end up learning to make your own strings and do your own in-house experimentation, especially if you expand your bow collection and enjoy making the strings for them.

For now, your string is absolutely within "standard" and should serve you well. 

Hope this helps.


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## Thompson11 (Nov 8, 2013)

Shelf!


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

Hey Thin man, sorry I did not see this post. And thanks for the reply. Good to know. Maybe I can see about getting the serving to be thicker on it at the bow shop, and yes, I assume I will learn how to do that eventually. Good to know about the other string being really thick so that I am not thinking I am crazy (but I am). 

I have one more problem to ask about...seems like I constantly do. Yesterday I was shooting with some kids and one of them knocked over my bow rack (which is an old metal bed frame) which fell over and dented the edge on the upper limb of my sage. The outer fiberglass layer is cracked on the edge and I picked off the loose bits. The crack does not go all the way across or anything, but I assume I can just consider this cosmetic and it is still safe to shoot. Should I post a photo? I was really bummed about it...but it was not the kids fault, I should have had the rack leaning on something more secure.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Space, 

Dings happen. However, post a detailed, large photo if you can. There's some sharp and experienced eyes on this forum glad to take a peek and reassure you of the limb's integrity ... or to advise an appropriate remedy. A purely cosmetic blemish can be carefully sanded smooth and followed with the application of a common finish on the area, such as Tru-Oil or polyurethane, to keep things smooth, sealed, and waterproof.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

Ok, here is the damage. It feels rough and I picked away at it a little, but it doesn't seem like it should be any problem to me but I would love an opinion from someone who knows better. I feel like I have packed this thread with my problems!


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

I have been shooting this some and have not noticed any changes...I am sure this is just cosmetic and I should just watch for cracks spreading or changing.


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## Archer Mech (Sep 7, 2014)

Ouch! I have a Bear Polar that was nicked with a carton knife during shipping (I'm guessing). Mine has a larger mark than that and the fiberglass splintered just a bit. I'd try to put a few drops of epoxy on that to avoid the risk of splintering.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

Yeah, ok...thanks for the advice.


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## Blake211 (Sep 3, 2016)

In talking with others, the general consensus seems that an elevated rest is best for maximizing accuracy. However, I do currently shoot off the shelf and am decently accurate up to about 30 yards. It mostly seems like practice


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## Archer Mech (Sep 7, 2014)

I have a either a Para rest brush rest, a Bear bristle, Bear Weather rest, or Hoyt Super rest on my bows depending on the bow. I use about 1/8" above horiz. on my nock point since I've seen no advantage and some weirdness when I tried it higher. I think there is no point in setting it higher since my elevated rests are so forgiving. Lateral adjustment in the sight window is much more critical for me and I prefer some of my bows that are cut past center so I can make those adjustments.


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## spacebarcowboy (Jul 11, 2016)

Archer mech, the epoxy was a good idea. It was already starting to splinter more and the epoxy has filled it in nicely (doesnt look to pretty, but thats ok).

I have gotten pretty well adjusted to the shelf already and I changed to the new string. I do feel like I am more limited to shooting just the predator arrows, but thats ok. I am mostly just shooting them. I have been messing with the nock point a little and have been doing pretty well at about 1/2 inch.


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