# Formaster?



## Kungur

I just picked up Rick McKinney's book "The Art of Winning" and he talks about the Formaster. I did a search here but did not come up with much. So what can you guys and gals tell me about it? Is there a benefit??
Thanks


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## midwayarcherywi

You bet there is a benefit. If you are not using the big muscles, if your line is really poor, the Formaster will collapse the shot. Setting it up is a bit of a pain, but the benefits are worth it. You'll get instant feedback.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/adv...s=formaster&osCsid=kt0q0ihdeaavqertgq5112jg75


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## teammemphis

I will have to agree. My son uses his formaster every week just to check his progress. It is one of the best "tools" out there for intant feedback.


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## Arcus

Description with pics:

http://www.texasarchery.org/Photos/Formaster/Formaster.htm


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## OldSchoolNEO

I have one that you could play around with, just PM if you're interested.


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## bowbendr

I use my formaster exclusively for training--there's no archery range close by, especially when there's snow everywhere. I can shoot in my apartment and the arrows very weakly fly about 6 feet into a cushion. There's no better tool, in my opinion, that allows you to both shoot and train your back muscles and overall form and alignment than a formaster. I use a custom-made one that uses a storebought, stretchable elbow support brace--it's super comfortable, moreso than the non-elastic straps that my old formaster used. 
Bottom line: It's awesome. It does hurt a little when you "shoot" with it unless it's set up right. Still totally worth it, though.


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## Kungur

I see that there are 2 different models. One uses rubber tubing and the other "string/cord". Is one preferable over the other?


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## K1archer

*Trainings Aid*

Kungur,

There is a new *Trainings Aid* on the market.
The name is: *Shot Trainer * and will be available soon.
It is a very nice looking tool.


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## Jim C

Kungur said:


> I see that there are 2 different models. One uses rubber tubing and the other "string/cord". Is one preferable over the other?


if you are at the state shoot at CWRU I can discuss this with you since I have used both for coaching for years

never use the static one with a compound!!!


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## Kungur

Jim,
I will see you there.


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## Warbow

K1archer said:


> Kungur,
> 
> There is a new *Trainings Aid* on the market.
> The name is: *Shot Trainer * and will be available soon.
> It is a very nice looking tool.


What is it? How does it work? Compare and contrast to the form master.


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## K1archer

*Trainings Aid*

To make it simlpe, here is a picture of the Trainings Aid










I tested it and I really like it. Works great.


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## Warbow

K1archer said:


> To make it simlpe, here is a picture of the Trainings Aid
> 
> I tested it and I really like it. Works great.


Hmm...it looks more professionally made than the form master (with it's bits and pieces from ACE Hardware construction, including an awkward u-bolt meant for steel cables). And it looks like it might have a bit more lee way in terms of fit than the form master. Of course, the sleeve design also looks like a bit of an end run around the form master patent. Some might argue whether it is a knock off or an innovation. No reason it can't be both. I'd say that the form master patent is the reason that the construction of the form master hasn't been improved much over the years. Patents can hinder innovation as much or more as they encourage it.

Thanks for the description.


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## tylerbenner

*Shot Trainer*

Hello All,

The Shot Trainer from Astra Archery is a new product that debuted at 2011 Las Vegas. You can read more about it here:

http://www.AstraArchery.com/Shot_Trainer.html

The original prototypes were invented in 2007 at the US Olympic Trainer Center when all the Resident Athletes got tired of bloody and bruised arms from using the Form Master.

The Shot Trainer is comfortable and convenient to use because you can clip in and out of it to go and retrieve your arrows after you shoot. A handy adjustable strap lets you dial in the length exactly without having to tie knots. The longer sleeve helps protect your arm from slapping (and it is conveniently missing a gigantic bolt...)

If you have questions or comments, please direct them to:
[email protected]

Thanks!


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## ewan

Just ordered a large shot trainer (hurray for big arms), looks like an interesting alternative to the Formaster. Looking forward to trying it.


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## whiz-Oz

tylerbenner said:


> The original prototypes were invented in 2007 at the US Olympic Trainer Center when all the Resident Athletes got tired of bloody and bruised arms from using the Form Master.
> 
> The Shot Trainer is comfortable and convenient to use because you can clip in and out of it to go and retrieve your arrows after you shoot. A handy adjustable strap lets you dial in the length exactly without having to tie knots. The longer sleeve helps protect your arm from slapping (and it is conveniently missing a gigantic bolt...)


I think that the sleeve design is going to be immeasurably more convenient than having the adjust the strap almost every time. 
Is there a place to mount a gigantic bolt to increase the level of sacrifice in terms of the experience? 
I thought getting whipped and beaten was part of how the formaster worked?

What do you mean it wasn't?

Awww.. Man...


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## tylerbenner

Not to worry, there is an attachment for adding a gigantic bolt should you find the level of sacrifice to be insufficient out of the box!


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## tylerbenner

Michael Peart from GB has posted a video of him using the Shot Trainer on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150100678286951

Thought you might be interested to see it in action. We have more videos from top shooters coming in and will update as we get them.


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## whiz-Oz

He's not even flinching, Tyler.
You realise that you've probably enabled the development of archers who have excellent technique, but will be considered soft by previous generations. 
How dare they do it in comfort!?!?!


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## tkaap

I only used my Formaster a handful of times before I replaced the bolt with some climbing knots and inserted a carabiner as a quick-detach.

I don't claim to be a genius, so I can't have been the only person to think of that. So why aren't those two changes more widespread? Why are Formasters still sold that will injure students? Admittedly, most coaches have a little medieval torturer in them, but this it a bit silly. These improvments shouldn't be a shocking change (but they evidently are, since several members here are clearly shocked).

It was so easy to let students torture themselves, too. Now coaches will have to go back to whipping them with arrows or clubbing them with stabilizers. Such a hassle.


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## bowbendr

My original formaster was indeed a torture device, unless you really enjoyed the gigantic bolt slamming into your arm with each shot, and the small straps digging into your elbow. I have a prototype of the Shot Trainer from 2008 and it's a great improvement on the original. I can't wait to get the Shot Trainer--it looks like it's certainly worth the price, and I'm not sure it could be much improved upon at this point. Get one and you won't be disappointed, especially if Tyler Benner recommends it!


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## Warbow

tkaap said:


> I don't claim to be a genius, so I can't have been the only person to think of that. So why aren't those two changes more widespread?


There could be any number of reasons. One, the inventor of the Formaster, Richard Carella, is dead. Then there is the relatively small market and small potential profit--though the current use of Formasters as part of the NTS could help with that. And, there are the multiple patents. When someone is granted a patent they are given a government granted and enforced monopoly on an idea, so the incentive to innovate and improve the product can be less than if they had to compete on a level playing field with people innovating and improving on the original idea.


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## tkaap

From the list you've given, it looks like the last of the patents expires next year. This does seem to be a case where Mr. Carella didn't take the best advantage of his patent (That is, continue innovating on it, or hire/license it to someone who wanted to keep innovating on it).

Well, at least in these enlightened times folks now have the secret to avoiding bloody and bruised arms.

-T


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## Murray

I've never had a problem in 20 years with bruises or bleeding or flinching with my $5 homemade formmaster... Guess I'm using it wrong.


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## Rick McKinney

I find it a bit sad to read how many people have insinuated that Richard Carella did nothing to improve his product. I attribute this to not knowing the man and making wild assumptions in order to either feel good or are captured in the heat of the moment to jump in the discussion and criticize him. 

First, Richard was an inventor. He came up with the Spin Wing vanes and he constantly worked at improving the vane. I can attest to his many attempts to make the vane a better product. I have 1000’s of them in so many different sizes and shapes that it boggles the mind. 

As for his ForMaster. He came out with this device and had a great manual with it to show how it worked. He later came up with the RigidMaster which is similar to the new Shot Trainer that is being discussed on this thread. I actually like the Shot Trainer and see it as a nice enhancement over the RigidMaster. I think you can even use it as a ForMaster if you can locate the rubber tubing needed. 

Richard past away over 10 years ago. I am very sure he would have continued to try to improve over the original design but he had a very bad heart and chose to live his last few years with family. The Range-O-Matic company (Spin Wing, ForMaster, RigidMaster and other small accessory products) was sold to the guy who I believe built the dies/tooling for the spin wing vanes. Since Richard’s passing I have not seen any improvement over any of the items but I cannot be sure since I have not paid much attention to the company as in the past. 

Tyler, good luck on your venture. It looks promising. I do hope you and others can appreciate that Richard’s original idea and product help spark the imagination for improvement that took 17 years or near the life of the patent. 

Ps. Not once did I ever have issues with the ForMaster. No bruising, bleeding or flinching. Did you guys read the manual?


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## Acehero

I pulled out my formaster today and did some training with it for the first time in a year or so. Shot with it on for about 15 arrows or so, until the initial flinching stopped and I was shooting solid with. Then I tried shooting an arrow without the formaster attached. WOW! I had forgotten how that felt. To say it is an eye opener is an understatement. I will be training with it on a much more regular basis from now on!


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## Warbow

> I find it a bit sad to read how many people have insinuated that Richard Carella did nothing to improve his product. I attribute this to not knowing the man and making wild assumptions in order to either feel good or are captured in the heat of the moment to jump in the discussion and criticize him.


The multiple patents clearly indicate that he did improve the product--I'm sure we are all indebted to Richard Carella for developing the idea in the first place. But the giant U-bolt that stills ships with the ForMaster also shows us that the improvements were somewhat limited.

The manual is much praised, and one advantage the ForMaster has over the ShotTrainer--which, it seems from a post above, doesn't yet come with a manual. But at least one ForMaster owner I know received his ForMaster without a manual--a situation I'm sure could be remedied if he'd known there was a manual, he didn't know to try and get one until I mentioned it to him.


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## Rick McKinney

Warbow. Interesting about the U-bolt. I am presuming that this item comes with the RigidMaster? I am looking at my ForMaster right now and do not see this item on it.


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## Viper1

Rick -

The U-bolt is on the Rigid FM and is used to set the cord length. Yes, it can hit the forearm, and be somewhat painful if the exposed bolt ends are turned inward. The trick is to turn them away from the forearm and I always wear a sweat shirt. Problem solved.

The FM is a great tool, but like everything else, it has a few limitations that can easily be overcome. I generally suggest that my students use it first under supervision. 

Haven't tried the new trainer yet. 

Hope all is well. 

Viper1 out.


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## Rick McKinney

Ha…Ha! Now I remember! Yes, if you do not set it right it does hurt…. 

I have never liked the RigidMaster for recurve archers and even Richard Carella said he developed it for compounds. The “jarring” affect you get with it shooting a recurve can be an issue. I worked with two internationally acclaimed archers who had serious issues with the RigidMaster. We immediately went back to the ForMaster. Oh….and these archers medaled in World and Olympic events so I consider that to be a good indicator….. and these two really did use good back tension. 

Thanks Viper for the “reminder”. All the best!


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## Warbow

Rick McKinney said:


> I have never liked the RigidMaster for recurve archers and even Richard Carella said he developed it for compounds. The “jarring” affect you get with it shooting a recurve can be an issue. I worked with two internationally acclaimed archers who had serious issues with the RigidMaster. We immediately went back to the ForMaster. Oh….and these archers medaled in World and Olympic events so I consider that to be a good indicator….. and these two really did use good back tension.


That brings up a question that perhaps Tyler can answer. Why does the OTC use the RigidMaster rather than the gentler, elastic ForMaster?


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## Vittorio

Still I suggest to all my archers to use the Formaster with the rubber band, only. So I hope Tyler's new version will also have this option in near future.


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## whiz-Oz

Acehero said:


> I pulled out my formaster today and did some training with it for the first time in a year or so. Shot with it on for about 15 arrows or so, until the initial flinching stopped and I was shooting solid with. Then I tried shooting an arrow without the formaster attached. WOW! I had forgotten how that felt. To say it is an eye opener is an understatement. I will be training with it on a much more regular basis from now on!


Excellent work! There's nothing like instant feedback to reinforce a learning experience. 

Can you get a feel now of how much you learn to anticipate things, even though you don't want to?


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## tylerbenner

The Shot Trainer does indeed come with an instruction manual.

http://www.astraarchery.com/Shot_Trainer.html

Halfway down the page you will see a link to download a pdf version. A nice offset printed version comes with the Shot Trainer when you purchase it.

regards,
--tyler


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## tylerbenner

As far as questions go concerning a version with a rubber band, as of yet, we have not created a mass-production model with this feature.

When comparing the differences between Form Masters with and without a rubber band, we found that the rubber band did not present as much of a challenge as a rigid form master: ie. there was more to learn by learning how to correctly shoot with a rigid version. Once an archer was comfortable with the form master with a rubber band, it was another step up to make them comfortable to shoot a rigid variant. We found this demarcation to be unnecessary, and with proper guidance, setup, and high expectations of use, a rigid strap was the correct piece of equipment to use. The rubber band variant made the shot feel spongy, while the rigid version helped to make the release as fast as possible. Top archers shooting the rigid Shot Trainer look and feel almost exactly the same with or without a rigid training device.

I'll try to get a video of Brady using one -- he makes it look so comfortable, easy, and soft it is amazing!

--tyler


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## Warbow

tylerbenner said:


> I'll try to get a video of Brady using one -- he makes it look so comfortable, easy, and soft it is amazing!
> 
> --tyler


That would be great, especially if posted via YouTube or Vimeo. Contrary to media reports, not everybody is on facebook, and you can't look at most facebook pages without setting up an account (quick, free and easy to do, I know, but not everybody wants to have a Facebook account).


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## tylerbenner

After some careful thinking, I think I have come up with a way to insert an elastic element into the linking of the main strap. I will keep everyone posted with this development in the coming weeks. It should add in the elastic element people are talking about here, but still keep the adjustability and clip-in/clip-out ability.

Also, I have posted the video of Nick Kale shooting on the new Astra Archery YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/AstraArcheryVideo

All videos will be posted here as well!

--tyler


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## ArtV

I suggest anyone who has a problem with how to use a foremast go back to the top and click on the video showing how it is used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9YCudXt9I Rigid
Or if you prefer the stretch tubing model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE6CJck42P8&feature=related

Kind of a no brainer for those who are having problems or have complained about it.

Art


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## Acehero

whiz-Oz said:


> Excellent work! There's nothing like instant feedback to reinforce a learning experience.
> 
> Can you get a feel now of how much you learn to anticipate things, even though you don't want to?


Absolutely. It wasnt my draw elbow that was affected, but my bowarm that was being pulled over to the bow when using the formaster at first. Like a mini-collapse. But after training with it for a bit the first thing i noticed when shooting an arrow was how much stronger my follow-through was. It felt quick and strong and very clean. I must admit, I wish i had been using it a bit more often over the last year - might have got me that second GB qualifying score i needed before the end of indoor season. I also should own up and say that after seeing the new Shot Trainer i have removed the bolt from my Formaster and replaced with a homemade webbing loop, clip and cord. Much more convenient to adjust and remove. And me being lazy, convenience means its likely to be used more


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## tylerbenner

Very sneaky, Acehero!

Please post some pictures or video of your setup. We would love to see what you have created.


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## whiz-Oz

Acehero said:


> Absolutely. It wasnt my draw elbow that was affected, but my bowarm that was being pulled over to the bow when using the formaster at first. Like a mini-collapse. But after training with it for a bit the first thing i noticed when shooting an arrow was how much stronger my follow-through was. It felt quick and strong and very clean.


Yep. If you get used to the concept of equilibrium at the point where your sight is steady on the target, the only thing disturbing the equilibrium is the releasing of the bowstring. 

Humans learn to get lazy. (Hey, it's in our nature) Specially if there are no really obvious downsides to it. 
Vacuum your house every day for a week and then do it every second day... After a year, you'll probably notice that doing it every week isn't much different. You might notice it if you have a wife to provide feedback.
This is why batchelor's houses are generally less tidy than a married man.
It's also why your handwriting rarely gets any better once you leave school, unless you concentrate on it. 

Shooting a bow lets you learn to relax as the shot goes off. 
Unfortunately, you also learn to do it during the shot... but you don't see any real feedback. 

The shot trainer / formaster gives you instant feedback and makes you aware of what was going on before. 
Sure, the clicker is a conditioned response tool that trains you to loose the arrow. 
Without a method of feedback... what else does the clicker train you do to?
Does it cause you to ONLY relax your forearm muscles?
With the vast majority of people.... they do more. 
Not the best for consistancy or accuracy.


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## julle

i just made myself a formast from an old belt and some rope. I used it today but what am i supposed to feel... After i release everything just stays the same except the arrow flies a few yards forward. I was expecting some sort of collapse but that didn't happen, even though my release is crap when shooting for real. I tried to simulate a colapse by drawing with my biceps etc but it still didn't happen :') what am I doing wrong ?


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## whiz-Oz

What do you think is supposed to happen?


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## julle

whiz-Oz said:


> What do you think is supposed to happen?


I was expecting firebolts to shoot out of my ears and tiny pink unicorns riding towards me, but none of that happened, so i guess i'm wrong... 

Could you tell me what's suppose to happen ?


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## julle

I just let me girlfriend try it who also shoots, and she definitely collapsed. So I guess I'm using the right muscles.


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## jhinaz

julle said:


> Could you tell me what's suppose to happen ?


Tyler Benner has a good video showing how to use the "Astra Shot Trainer" on his website. Your follow-through with a Formaster should be the same. - John

http://www.facebook.com/Shot.Trainer


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## julle

jhinaz said:


> Tyler Benner has a good video showing how to use the "Astra Shot Trainer" on his website. Your follow-through with a Formaster should be the same. - John
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/Shot.Trainer


it's the same I think as in the videos. Now are there some guidelines on how to further train using this device?


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## tylerbenner

Julie,

http://www.astraarchery.com/Shot_Trainer.html

Halfway down the page you will find a pdf file to download that shows how to use a Shot Trainer, drills to try, and instructions of use. It is very important that you have the length adjusted correctly, so pay close attention to that topic!

best,
--tyler


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## whiz-Oz

Give it to your girlfriend so that she doesn't collapse during the shot. Once she doesn't do that her shooting will improve


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## tylerbenner

Does anyone have a form master with the rubber band where they could measure the approximate pulling force? Hang a 20 pound weight from it and tell me how far it stretches? I have found a bunch of different tubings, but I don't know what force people are looking for. Any help would be appreciated!

--tyler


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## julle

tylerbenner said:


> As far as questions go concerning a version with a rubber band, as of yet, we have not created a mass-production model with this feature.
> 
> When comparing the differences between Form Masters with and without a rubber band, we found that the rubber band did not present as much of a challenge as a rigid form master: ie. there was more to learn by learning how to correctly shoot with a rigid version. Once an archer was comfortable with the form master with a rubber band, it was another step up to make them comfortable to shoot a rigid variant. We found this demarcation to be unnecessary, and with proper guidance, setup, and high expectations of use, a rigid strap was the correct piece of equipment to use. The rubber band variant made the shot feel spongy, while the rigid version helped to make the release as fast as possible. Top archers shooting the rigid Shot Trainer look and feel almost exactly the same with or without a rigid training device.
> 
> I'll try to get a video of Brady using one -- he makes it look so comfortable, easy, and soft it is amazing!
> 
> --tyler


Hows that video of brady coming allong


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## Warbow

tylerbenner said:


> Does anyone have a form master with the rubber band where they could measure the approximate pulling force? Hang a 20 pound weight from it and tell me how far it stretches? I have found a bunch of different tubings, but I don't know what force people are looking for. Any help would be appreciated!
> 
> --tyler


If you are going to reverse engineer it to create your own version to sell as a competing product you could at least buy one so you can test it yourself.


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## DIV

If the shot trainer does not come with a manual, that's a major drawback IMHO....considering the Formaster and I plan to read the manual carefully...and where a sweat shirt!


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## whiz-Oz

DIV said:


> If the shot trainer does not come with a manual, that's a major drawback IMHO....considering the Formaster and I plan to read the manual carefully...and where a sweat shirt!


The shot trainer comes with a manual AND a link on the website to download it if you happen to need it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14010429/Astra Public Files/Shot Trainer user manual.pdf


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## Old Newbie

The shot trainer comes with a manual and there's a video on the website. I've been traveling for the last six months and I don't always have a bale to shoot at. The shot trainer allows me to shoot in the room WITH my arrows. Now I can work on whether I'm collapsing from the Pavlovian clicker issues I have, do the various exercises and so on. The value is immeasurable!

http://www.astraarchery.com/Videos/Entries/2011/5/11_Shot_Trainer_Instructional_Video.html


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## jhinaz

DIV said:


> ...and where a sweat shirt!


Dan, 
Cut the toe out of an old athletic sock (or boot sock, etc) and slide it over your drawing-arm elbow........it works for me. - John


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## DIV

AHAAHAAAAAA!!!!.....they both look good....Shot Trainer or Formaster?!!!....can't decide.


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## DIV

This is killing me! Formaster or Shot Trainer? I can't decide, but I got to have one of them!


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## DIV

Rick-
Sorry, but I cannot resist the opportunity to say congrats and thank you for all you've done for the archery world. How fortunate we all are that you're a member here.
I'm new to recurve and your wonderful book is inspirational...I'm getting so much out of it....I'm so happy I quit reading The Hunger Games and started reading your book instead!:77:


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## limbwalker

Rick did indeed do the recurve target archery world a huge favor with his book. I consider it still the fundamental volume on Olympic target archery. That book, and my video camera (and some help from the old Sagittarius site) were my "coach" when I got started...

Dan, I like both the rigid Formaster and the Astra shot trainer. I've used the Formaster so long now that I'm used to it, and I guess I prefer it for myself, mostly because it's simplicity. But I just might add a quick clip to it anyway  But for my students (most of them young ladies) I have recommended the Astra trainer because it is a little more comfortable for them, and they like the "sock" more than the nylon straps. It just makes more sense to them to put on and take off...

They both accomplish the exact same thing.

John


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## jhinaz

Dan, 

I sent you an email. - John


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## DIV

Thanks John.
At the risk of displeasing Rick McKinney, I went ahead and ordered the Shot Trainer.
I'm looking forward to working with it.


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## limbwalker

I think Rick would just be happy you've made the commitment to train and get better.


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## DIV

Well, that's very nice of you to say, and I certainly hope so!
Oh and by the way, you mentioned the video camera....it just so happens that I brought my digital camera on the tripod and filmed myself yesterday at the range. I spent some time (and will spend much more) comparing myself to some of the greats that I can find on YouTube. My current favorite is Im Dong Hyun.


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## Old Newbie

Dan,

These three are awesome examples. I've been studying them for the last three days straight.

http://texasarchery.org/videos/Miika/USAT.avi


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## Rick McKinney

DIV said:


> Thanks John.
> At the risk of displeasing Rick McKinney, I went ahead and ordered the Shot Trainer.


I am not at all offended by anyone choosing one or the other. I get no royalties, commissions nor even free equipment from my “endorsement”.

I have never tested nor even seen the shot trainer except in pictures and it appears to be a fine piece of equipment. The only concern I have is that there is no stretch to the shot or better yet, it is more of a “Rigid” type system. When I had some young elite archers test the rigid system years ago, there was a lot of pain they experienced using it, thus I felt it was not a good item for many to use. I have always believed that “do no harm” is first and foremost with archers. Both archers by the way became World Champions and Olympic Medalists. However, it appears that the form style and techniques may have changed for this to not be a problem for some. 

The comment made that the rigid style is far superior and that the rubber type is not challenging enough is a bit presumptuous and in my opinion tells me that most do not understand how to use the ForMaster or rubber type very well. If you just follow the instructions in the booklet, I would have to agree, but if you go further in the training with it, it will give you more than you can ever imagine.

My suggestion is if you get the shot trainer then see if you can purchase a couple of the rubber tubes from ForMaster and use that as well. However, it all costs money and it is not my intent to make you spend money, only to consider options.


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## limbwalker

FWIW, the archers I've coached who experienced any pain with the rigid formaster simply didn't have it adjusted correctly, or attempted to use it from the beginning with their competition bow (or both). I always start my archers out on a lighter training bow so they don't get injured, then they can progress to their competition bow - without arrows, then with an arrow, then finally, with a clicker. If they are prepared in this step-wise careful manner, they can achieve the benefits of the rigid formaster without fear of injury.

P.S. - Vic Wunderle was still using the elastic Formaster every day at the Athens games. I stood next to him at warm-up while he used it, many times...

John


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## Warbow

Rick McKinney said:


> If you just follow the instructions in the booklet, I would have to agree, but if you go further in the training with it...


What kind of training beyond the book are you referring too?


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## limbwalker

That's "super secret" stuff that only top coaches and athletes are allowed to know...  ha, ha. 

John


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## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> That's "super secret" stuff that only top coaches and athletes are allowed to know...  ha, ha.
> 
> John


Doh! Locked up in the underground vaults at USA Headquarters? Where only Coach Lee's retna scan and two JDT coaches turning keys simultaneously will get you past the blast doors? 









Someday, someday I will learn these secrets. Now where did I put my Tom Cruze motorized infiltration harness? :embara:


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## limbwalker

> Where only Coach Lee's retna scan and two JDT coaches turning keys simultaneously will get you past the blast doors?


No, I'm not sure even they have access. I think it would take McKinney and Pace turning simutaneous keys... only after speaking the secret phrase... 

John


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## Warbow

limbwalker said:


> No, I'm not sure even they have access. I think it would take McKinney and Pace turning simutaneous keys... only after speaking the secret phrase...
> 
> John


Ah, I see, more National Treasure and less Mission: Impossible. Robin Hood and Horace A. Ford were secret Masons, who stored the techniques of the ancients archers, for whom 90 meter Xs were trivial, in a vault which can only be accessed after a perilous series of improbable adventures. I've heard you can spot these secret Archer Masons by the elastic Formaster cilice they wear around their leg. Though I suppose I could be misinformed... :embara:


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## DIV

Well, one thing good is that I ordered from LAS and they have a wonderful return policy if the Shot Trainer doesn't work out for me...I should know in the next day or two...


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## limbwalker

Warbow, that's hilarous.

DIV, good luck. I'm sure it will work out for you...


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## DIV

Thanks, I'll definitely report back.


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## S.Caufman

Here's the formaster that I made a few years ago. I'm pretty sure that I spent less than $10 bucks for the parts. I know one coach that simply buys 1/2" webbing, gromets and string, then teaches his archers to make their own.


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## limbwalker

I've made my own in the past as well, using handbag shoulder straps. It's not difficult if you're at all handy.

Steve, I see some redundancy in that design. the "S" clip at the end of the cord would worry me. Seems like it would slide up and down the bowstring and get in the way of your finger tab. Maybe not. Mine looked a lot like yours but with only the cord that I looped around the bowstring. Kept it in place and didn't get in the way of the tab - just like the original Formaster.

I do like the elbow sleeve you have there. Heck, you could just get a standard formaster, sew it in place on that elbow sleeve, and upgrade it to a shot trainer. I told Tyler the sleeve they use for the shot trainer, while a good idea, is too tight for adults and longer than it needs to be. Otherwise, it's a good addition to the original formaster.

John


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## Warbow

S.Caufman said:


> Here's the formaster that I made a few years ago. I'm pretty sure that I spent less than $10 bucks for the parts. I know one coach that simply buys 1/2" webbing, gromets and string, then teaches his archers to make their own.
> View attachment 1406465


Neat. The use of the Olympic lanyards makes me smile. Depending on what kind of bow you are using this rig with I'd be a little concerned about using materials that aren't load rated or made for a dynamic load, such as the lanyard hardware and the S-clip. Wouldn't want them to break.


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## S.Caufman

Warbow, you are right. Some of the lanyard clips I have wouldn't be able to handle the load. The two shown here have been fine with my 43lb limbs. It's hard to see in the pictures; the lanyards are sowed on to the back side of the elbow sleeve to keep them in place. I used a heavy duty sowing needle and serving as thread. If I were to get into making more of them, I'd probably buy an awl from a craft store to make the stitching easier, faster and neater.

Limbwalker, there might be a better way than using an S clip to attach the formaster to the string. I haven't had a problem putting the S clip between my fingers on the string at the nocking point. I do like the quick release that the S clip provides.

By the way, the picture of the vault and comments were very funny.


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## Warbow

S.Caufman said:


> Warbow, you are right. Some of the lanyard clips I have wouldn't be able to handle the load. The two shown here have been fine with my 43lb limbs. It's hard to see in the pictures; the lanyards are sowed on to the back side of the elbow sleeve to keep them in place. I used a heavy duty sowing needle and serving as thread. If I were to get into making more of them, I'd probably buy an awl from a craft store to make the stitching easier, faster and neater.
> 
> Limbwalker, there might be a better way than using an S clip to attach the formaster to the string. I haven't had a problem putting the S clip between my fingers on the string at the nocking point. I do like the quick release that the S clip provides.
> 
> By the way, the picture of the vault and comments were very funny.


Ha! You must be one of the JDT coaches with the keys to the secret vault--hey, wait a second. That's what those lanyards are for...and you have **two** of them... :mg: I think one of the other JDT coaches is probably tied up in a shack somewhere, missing his key. :eek2: :spy:


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## limbwalker

Warbow, you're onto him. I'm sure of it...! Maybe he's the one that hit Darrell in the knee at Nationals and stole his key! LOL!

John


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## Rick McKinney

Executive Privilege.......I learned that from Eric Holder....


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## jhinaz

I got my Formaster (both Rubber and Rigid versions) in 2003. One of the first things I did was to get rid of that ‘U-Bolt’ and loop the rope directly to the bowstring. I used it this way for several years with no complaints…..and then I saw the ‘disconnect’ feature of the ‘Shot Trainer’ and I immediately incorporated that magnificent feature into my Formaster. IMO my modified Formaster has the best of both worlds (of Formaster and Shot Trainer). - John


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## DIV

Ok, as promised, I'm reporting back. I just got my Shot Trainer today!
It does come with an easy-to-follow book that covers everything in the online video, which I still referenced to help me set it up.
Sure enough, my first shot with it (no arrow) did cause me to collapse my draw arm. But after a few repeated attempts, my draw arm was as solid and fixed as could be. Then I took some shots outside with an arrow....great way to practice when you can't make it to the range.
The only thing to keep in mind is that as you break-in a brand new Shot Trainer, the straps will stretch initially and get longer...just re-adjust as per the instructions so that there's no more than 1" between the bowstring and your curled fingers....otherwise, your arrow will fly further than the specified 1-4 meters.

I'm impressed and very happy!!...can't wait to experience my very next shot without the trainer!


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## Old Newbie

Congrats Dan! It really is cool. I use mine a lot as I've been in hotels for the last for months. I can shoot (with arrows) inside my hotel room as long as I check to make sure my Shot Trainer is structurally sound. That gives me extra time to develop a better contact lens to get past the retina scan. Meanwhile, I sent you some Chloroform. You get McKinney and Pace to go to lunch and...


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## DIV

Got it...let's synchronize our timepieces....and until we're in, maintain radio silence...


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## DeepRiverBowman

I have the rigid formaster. I think I prefer this over the rubber tubing b/c I use the actual bow weight for training with it, not the pull of the tube. YouTube has a couple of videos I've seen that show it in use. You could probably do a search and find them. 3Rivers and Lancaster sell the rigid formaster.
mike


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## zu!

Hi guys...sorry for resurrecting an old thread (hey, Easter is coming too!) but I've been searching around for training aids to help me get back tension. One internet search led to another which led me to the Form Master, which then led me to this post about bow arm collapsing. What is meant by this and why does this device show it?

Seems like a great way to practice the draw indoors when its raining and miserable outside!


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## Acehero

A bow arm collapse is when the bowarm side muscles (as opposed to the drawing side muscles) relax just prior to making the shot. Basically, its pre-empting the shot and relaxing too soon and results in flinch. The Formaster will show you instantly if you're doing this, and be an instant aid in helping correct it. One of the best investments for improving recurve shooting there is.


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## zu!

Gotcha, thanks!


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## DGZ

I did read the manual, but can't figure out how to avoid having the bolt hit the inside of my forearm. I'd love to hear from someone who's figured this out. (I do use an old leather armguard on my string arm now.)

I've only used my Formaster a couple of times, but was almost disappointed that my shot DIDN'T collapse. Either I have better form than I thought (doubtful), or I'm not using the device correctly. I definitely do have sufficient slack in the string (enough to give it a chance to pull my arm forward if my alignment is bad). 

Is there an approach to using the Formaster that I'm missing?


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## Acehero

Hi DGZ. If the bolt is hitting your arm, have you tried turning the cord around when you attach it to your bowstring? If the prongs of the bolts are facing towards your forearm when its attached, then you just need to unattach it, flip the formaster 180 degrees and re-attach it. Its all down to which direction you make the loop when you attach it to your bowstring. Is that what you meant?

The other thing that may be worth a try is to have less slack in it. You really don't need a lot, if any, to get the benefit.

I remember the first time I used mine. I was expecting my draw elbow to be dragged forward in a collapse after the first shot, but it didn't at all. Turns out I was already using my draw-side muscles really well. Instead, my bowarm totally collapsed and got yanked over to the right! I wasn't expecting that in the slightest, but it showed me very quickly where I needed to focus on improving my form


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## DGZ

Acehero said:


> Hi DGZ. If the bolt is hitting your arm, have you tried turning the cord around when you attach it to your bowstring? If the prongs of the bolts are facing towards your forearm when its attached, then you just need to unattach it, flip the formaster 180 degrees and re-attach it. Its all down to which direction you make the loop when you attach it to your bowstring. Is that what you meant?
> 
> The other thing that may be worth a try is to have less slack in it. You really don't need a lot, if any, to get the benefit.
> 
> I remember the first time I used mine. I was expecting my draw elbow to be dragged forward in a collapse after the first shot, but it didn't at all. Turns out I was already using my draw-side muscles really well. Instead, my bowarm totally collapsed and got yanked over to the right! I wasn't expecting that in the slightest, but it showed me very quickly where I needed to focus on improving my form


Thanks for the tips. I'll keep working the Formaster. (I do have the bolt assembly with the bolt ends facing away from my forearm, but the "U" of the u-bolt still gives a pretty good whack!)


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## Warbow

DGZ said:


> Thanks for the tips. I'll keep working the Formaster. (I do have the bolt assembly with the bolt ends facing away from my forearm, but the "U" of the u-bolt still gives a pretty good whack!)


Can you replace the bolt with a knot? I know it might be a bit trickier to adjust, but that seems like it would be a good trade off.


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## DGZ

Warbow said:


> Can you replace the bolt with a knot? I know it might be a bit trickier to adjust, but that seems like it would be a good trade off.


Not sure -- I'd have trouble putting two sticks together (slight exaggeration). But it might be worth a try.


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## Acehero

Ah I see what you mean now. For what its worth, I replaced the cord and bolt with a length of quality (and high breaking strain) paracord from a climbing shop. I just tie it to the length required to make a loop. Takes a bit of trial and error to get the right length but it is more comfortable to use.


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## shuumai

How important is the second strap that fits on the forearm side? It seems like one strap that is secured around the upper arm might work.


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## hawk87

Hey guys, got my rigid formaster the other day and I'm looking forward to working on my form at home. 

A random question I have for fellow rigid formaster users.....is it normal for the arrow to make contact with the base of the cutout on the riser. Seems when I let the shot off, the arrow kisses/rubs against the base of the riser cutout (before the rest) and then balloons up into the air (only a meter or so in front however). The arrows does not fly straight through the rest. 

Wondering if this is to be expected? If so I may pop some tape over that part of the riser to prevent ongoing wear.


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## Mulcade

shuumai said:


> How important is the second strap that fits on the forearm side? It seems like one strap that is secured around the upper arm might work.


If you only had one strap, that one strap would tend to slide down the arm when used. So, the double strap is so they can pull against each other to keep the straps from sliding down and possibly injuring the user.



hawk87 said:


> Hey guys, got my rigid formaster the other day and I'm looking forward to working on my form at home.
> 
> A random question I have for fellow rigid formaster users.....is it normal for the arrow to make contact with the base of the cutout on the riser. Seems when I let the shot off, the arrow kisses/rubs against the base of the riser cutout (before the rest) and then balloons up into the air (only a meter or so in front however). The arrows does not fly straight through the rest.
> 
> Wondering if this is to be expected? If so I may pop some tape over that part of the riser to prevent ongoing wear.


Yes, that doesn't surprise me. There's not much energy going into the arrow, so gravity could easily bring it down far enough to contact the shelf. If it's bothering you or you're worried about wear on the arrow, put something soft on the shelf the cushion the impact. Alternately, you can give the formaster just a little more line to work with so you get a little more distance on your arrow.


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## limbwalker

> Yes, that doesn't surprise me. There's not much energy going into the arrow, so gravity could easily bring it down far enough to contact the shelf. If it's bothering you or you're worried about wear on the arrow, put something soft on the shelf the cushion the impact. Alternately, you can give the formaster just a little more line to work with so you get a little more distance on your arrow.


Precisely. 

And I don't really recommend using your competition arrows with the formaster. In fact, you could use just about any arrow - fletched or unfletched - since you're just shooting them 15-20 feet anyway.

My daughter uses her chewed-up arrows when she shoots her formaster, as hers sometimes bounce off the shelf. I have my formaster set long enough that my arrows clear just fine, but I don't recommend setting it that long unless you are a veteran recurve archer.


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## hawk87

limbwalker said:


> Precisely.
> 
> And I don't really recommend using your competition arrows with the formaster. In fact, you could use just about any arrow - fletched or unfletched - since you're just shooting them 15-20 feet anyway.
> 
> My daughter uses her chewed-up arrows when she shoots her formaster, as hers sometimes bounce off the shelf. I have my formaster set long enough that my arrows clear just fine, but I don't recommend setting it that long unless you are a veteran recurve archer.


When you say set long - do you mean the chord attracted to the string is "long" hence the arrow flies further/has more energy put through it?


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## limbwalker

Exactly.


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