# A Super Fast Recurve…….



## wellis1840 (May 29, 2005)

I am interested in purchasing a very very fast recurve but haven’t a clue of what to buy. Too many companies and models out there. I am fairly new to this sport and am shooting instinctively. Just discovered 3D and assume that a fast bow will give me a flatter trajectory for those far shots through the trees. I have no desire to hunt! Being the left handed I am not able to try out bows from other shooters (so far have not found any left handed) or the local Pro-Shops (don’t carry left handed products). Guys at the local range have told me to consider a Hoyt Gamemaster or a Chek-Mate TD Hunter. Hope to get some ideas from this forum….

Cheers


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Chek-Mates aren't the fastest bow on the market, but they aren't meant to be. The average shooter can't control a bow that is built just for speed. They are fast, but not the absolute fastest--they are built to be forgiving also. If you are looking just for a target bow, and want a Chek-Mate, look at the Sabre take-down. 

A faster bow will give you a little flatter trajectory, but ultimately it's up to the shooter. Last year a fellow won the Men's Longbow class at Cloverdale shooting a Hill style longbow he built himself--there were much, much faster bows out there.

Chad


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wells -

Speed without shootability is next to useless.

If you think you need that much speed, there are only two right now that fit the bill, IMHO.

Warf bows by Bob Gordon are compound risers with FITA limbs and a trick or two thrown in for good luck, and fairly reasonably price.

DAS bows are probably king of the hill right now. Custom riser by David Sosa and again FITA limbs, of your choice.

Both gentleman are super people to deal with and know the game inside and out. Both can be found at www.tradtalk.com.

Hoyt makes a great bow, and the GM is no exception, but it's not in the same class as the two above.

Viper1 out.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Give Bruce at Chaparral Archery a call. He makes a one piece 50's style recurve called the "Alpine", which was designed by John Fazio, of Sovereign Archery. Only thing better than its speed, is the quietness of these bows. I just ordered my 3rd one yesterday.....You can reach him at 1-505 772-5522, or check him out on the www. He may have a lefty in stock

I should add that he is a friendly and generous man.


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## CM Sackett (Jul 20, 2005)

The Black Swan Carbon Classic Hybrid will deliver the total performance package.

Arvid Danielson, the bowyer is a southpaw, himself... and the holder of the world's record for the most RobinHoods in 24 hours (347, on 7/28/85), was a member of the 1980 National Team (as an alternate), shot the first perfect 300 PAA round (and backed it up on the very next round with another).

In other words, Arvid understands performance.

BLACK SWAN CARBON CLASSICS 

NOTE: See also the current thread on this forum "Recurve vs. Longbow" (page 2).


Sackett


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## deadeye (Aug 22, 2002)

www.Riversedgerecurves.com


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## Jim McPhail (Jan 8, 2005)

Try an "international limb fitting" type riser (such as a Hoyt Gold Medalist) with a set of Win&Win XQ-1 Synergy Foam Carbon limbs. They are so fast it's like shooting a bow that is 4-5lbs heavier than the marked weight, but without the effort of having to draw that extra weight.


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## NCarrowslinger (Feb 13, 2003)

Listen to Sackett, give the Black Swans a good, hard look. Not only do they look great, but they are smooth, quiet, and FAST. No handshock either.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Head to head in 3D, I don't think there's anything out there that can touch a DAS Kinetic or Warfbow. Speeds over 200 fps at comfortable draw weights under 50 pounds are normal for draws of 27 inches or longer and both the Warfs and DAS Kinetics are unbelievably shootable with zero hand shock and you would have to shoot one to understand just how forgiving and accurate they are.

You can find lots of discussions on Warf bows and DAS Kinetics at www.TradTalk.com and you can go directly to the DAS Kinetic website at www.kineticbows.com.

The guys there are also talking about the Quinn bows being extremely shootable but at prices that are actually so low they make people wonder what "the catch" is. From the guys who have shot them, there doesn't appear to be "a catch".


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## CM Sackett (Jul 20, 2005)

Warfs and the DAS's are nice bows, no argument.

But the Black Swan Longbow is performing at over 200fps (AMO), and the Hybrid... a good bit quicker than that (AMO).

And they are wonderfully spine tolerant, while retaining the smooth, sweet, quiet shooting a person needs for "total" performance. So you can shoot your "3-D" weight shafts and have as flat a trajectory as any bow without wheels. Then move up to your hunting weight shafts... and still send them sweet and true... with a trajectory as flat as most bows 10 lbs. heavier in draw weight.

If you want a WARF or DAS, go for it. You can't go wrong with their quality or performance.

But they ain't the only "Ferraris" on the block (and yes, that includes ease of draw, quiet, smooth and shock-free release... and deadly accuracy).


These are indeed the "good ol' days" of quality bows!


As Always;

Sackett


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## strummer (Jul 25, 2004)

the fedora 560 is the fastest I know of then a horne


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## mherrera (Jul 15, 2004)

*Fast stick bows*

I have owned Black Widows . Bob Lees , Rocky Mountain recurves, Brackenberry recurves , Fox recurves, A morrison ACS, Big Horn Recurve, Cascade recurve, Fedora Recurve, Horne recurve (fastest of the above with ACS) Hummingbird recurve, Martin Hunter , Carroll Recurve,Brown Recluse (very Fast but noisy)Bill Stewart Cam Limb Bows, and others including factory bows I don't instantly recall pronghorn, Tomahawk long bow . Golden Super Shrew, and others I can't recall and none are as fast or as smooth as the 2 Centaur (Little Mag) 56" bow with Bamboo cores and yew laminates. I have chronographed The faster of the above and none are as fast. I shoot split fingered with a seal skin tab 28" 720 grain arrows. For an old recurve shooter (me) I just can't reliably get the same grip on a straight longbow grip. The Centaur comes with finger grooves and is a hybrid and is the quietest bow I can recall shooting and I shoot it as accurately as any recurve I have ever shot.Accuracy first, speed second (for hunting quiet is second) There are many fine bows . no one can shoot them all and each of our shooting techniques make some bows shootable , others not. Some bowers will let you shoot the bows before purchasing with a deposit. I have visited several and shot many of theirs. All were Gentlemen and a credit tko our sport. ( forgot Navajo 21st Century. That is my 2 cents gleaned over 36 years


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## CM Sackett (Jul 20, 2005)

Evenin' Dr. Herrera,

How's that little ACS working for you?

The Horne found a good home in Wyoming last week!

Good to "see" you...


Sackett


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

If the bows were measured in FPS per Dollar, the Quinn would be the fastest/best deal on the planet! Unfortunately, the Quinn Stallion does not come in a left handed model. The Quinn Longhorn is the wooden risered version of the Stallion and probably comes in LH. 2 of them are going to be tested real soon. At $275, the Longhorn is still a great buy.

Quinn's and Warf's are great buys and fast bows, the DAS is the elite super bow.

Hank


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## mherrera (Jul 15, 2004)

*Reply to Sackett*

The Acs WAS QUICK AND smooth but I could not shoot it with a straight grip. It found a good home in Phoenix where it is much appreciated. Bring your Black Swan down when we deer hunt I am going to want to chronograph it against my Centaur.I hoppe he comes out with a grip friendly to recurve or lets me shape the grip,


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Most all of the opinions here are right-on with the speed thing and the type of bows listed. Yes, I've heard Fazio builds a barn-burner of a recurve. If you are looking for shootability coupled with speed, I would agree that the DAS Kinetic, Warfed recurves, Hoyt Gamemaster, and even the Quinn are very good candidates. Why do I say this? Well, maybe I didn't read all of the posts in their entirety, but the main thing about getting speed is a result of the gr/lb arrow weight. Get down arround 6-7 gr/lb and you've got yourself one speedster bow. In most cases, a metal-risered bow is the one that will provide the best shootability with extremely light-weight arrows because of the rigidity in the riser. Who cares about noise if you're only shooting 3-D targets? Those foam deer aren't gonna run away when they hear your bow two targets before you get there... unless of course you go for the DAS Kenetic. I've heard they are the most quiet, vibration-free bow when shooting faster-than-lightning arrow weights.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Cronie Speed Tested*

IF you are looking for speed at a good price to shoot 3ds the gamemaster is a great bow. I own two of them and have had a total of 4 checkmates as well. fact --- my 50lb gamemaster hoyt at 29 inch draw with a light speed arrow at about 380 grains ran an amazing 247 fps and that was a total of 6 arrows just to make sure that it was working properly, and it was as we tested some other bows as well at the same time which we knew the speeds of in advance. This bow also shoots off the shelf which is how I shoot them as rules up here state you have to in trad , no rest allowed, remmeber to each his own, this bow is a joy to shoot and I hope you have the chance to try one before you buy anything else. A heated discussion was voiced on these bows about metal and wood risers before, I own a total of about 20 trad bows all makes and models and they all shoot great, remember its who`s behind the string. HAVE FUN


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

BW recurves are fast enough, but they aren't among the fastest--they are pretty much average with any other well made recurve. The Palmers, or at least certain ones, are faster. I only know of one head-to-head test, and the Palmer came out about 15 fps faster than the BW. Still not a huge amount though.

Chad


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Chad,
> 
> According to a test done in Bowhunting World..
> 
> ...


It depends on what you consider to be fast. That's a lot faster than I could throw a rock, but it's not fast compared to the better recurves on the market--it's very average.

What kind of string were they using for that test (material, number of strands), what did it have on it (serving size, length, silencers, etc), and what kind of release was used (tab, glove, shooting machine, or?). All of this can make a difference in speed. I've heard about and read about several "tests", but most were done with everything that could be done in favor of a few more fps, not a real world situation. The difference in the tests and the real world is invariably going to be several fps.

I average 187 fps with my longbow, drawing it 30.5" with a 14 strand Dynaflight '97 string on it, over 8" of .025 #62 Braid serving, and a full set of cat whisker silencers, shooting fingers with a glove. My arrows weighed approximately 9.5 grains per lb. With a stripped down string and a cleaner release, my longbow would shoot as fast as that BW recurve, and my bow is not an Adcock or Black Swan--shoot, it doesn't even have any carbon in it and it's not one of the more radical hybrids.

I don't think there is anything out there that will just completely blow the BW out of the water, but there are faster bows, and that's what the guy was asking about.

Btw, I've shot several BW recurves and had two myself. They are nice enough, but obviously they aren't the bow for everyone. I didn't like them nearly as much as you do. I really like Chek-Mate bows, and the original poster mentioned one in his first post, but they aren't one of the speed demons either--they will hang right with a BW, but there are bows that are somewhat faster.

Chad


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## insttech1 (Feb 3, 2005)

*Border*

My Border will come very close to matching the posted #'s for that Widow, with a 515gr arrow, but only about 52/53 lbs @30.25"...

That's with an 18-strand FF and .021" serving and cat whiskers...

Take her down to a true 9gr/lb and she'll easily break 200 at 52lbs...

It's a 62" Black Douglas with the long (21") riser, and specially made XP10 limbs with XP30 carbon cores.

Pricey? Yes! Hard to find? Yes... Worth it? YES!

Other than that, I'd like to try a DAS or a Warf...but I'll have some vague idea about Warf performance hopefully later this year when I mate some ILF limbs up to some risers that I've made (they're wood, but will give me the general idea, and I can set one up for the wife pretty cheap...)

Anyway, what has been stated before is true: POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL!!

If that "fast" curve shoots with the characteristics of a bronco bucking in midair, the speed is worth absolutely ZIP!

Speed combined with smooth characteristics is what should be looked for, along with a comfortable grip, but those are just my criteria...along with bamboo or carbon cores or lam's...

Good luck with your search...
Marc


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

Shooting the same arrow, you won't see too much of a difference in speed between different bows. IMO the key to getting a fast setup is to get light arrows. If this is strictly for 3D then get a FITA bow and light arrows (6-7 grains per pound). FITA bows (all with metal risers) have no problem shooting an arrow that light. It might be somewhat loud, but that doesn't matter much in competition. Also, FITA bows are longer and heavier than most custom bows which makes them feel better during the shot I think.

BTW, as far as I know Martin is the only company/bowyer making bows with wooden risers who will warranty shooting an arrow as low as 6 grains per pound.


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## Abel (Jun 2, 2004)

The Morrison Arapaho and the Palmer Classic Carbon are pretty fast recurves.


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## insttech1 (Feb 3, 2005)

I think the gent' that started this post is the only one not chiming in... :mg:


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## CM Sackett (Jul 20, 2005)

insttech1, I think you're right...  

The Black Swan report by Norb in BOWHUNTING WORLD was in 1994. The tests were performed on his glass/lam bows. The AMO for the bow tested (w/16 strand flemish, I THINK) was 184fps.

The new Carbon Classic sweetstyks... are a whole other animal.

Good luck with your decision wellis, most ANY of the choices mentioned so far would put a smile on your face!


Sackett


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## wellis1840 (May 29, 2005)

*Thanks to all!*

Thanks to all for your input! Lots to think about. Will post what I buy later.

Cheers


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## Torsten (Jun 25, 2004)

*Second Border Bow Shooter*

There was so much hassle about what I sent to the Leatherwall forum in spring. I still dare to re-open this can of worms.

I shoot a Border Rob Roy 65#@29" at 200 - 217 fps with a 600 grain arrow.
The last trials I made were with a 720 and one 740 gr. carbon arrow at 201 -206 fps.
Yes - the bow has plenty of accuracy, BUT needs regular practicing and after a long brake exceeding two weeks it feels quite tricky.

You really must be aware what you are doing. Then you can hit nails up to 30 -40 yd, at least with mine.


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## Torsten (Jun 25, 2004)

DoughK

Yes, all arrows are in the ballpark of 67 feet pounds. 
No more worm boxes till then
Get me a ticket to show you.

Best regards from Finland!

Torsten


P.S. under my name are more people who think to need believe in physics instead of understanding it.


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

CM Sackett said:


> The new Carbon Classic sweetstyks... are a whole other animal.


Hey, I don't suppose you have demo bows? You've piqued my curiosity and I'd love to try a Hybrid. (I had a look at the Black Swan website.) But I will be up-front and say that I don't have the money to buy one, but I do have the money to pay shipping both ways.


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## Torsten (Jun 25, 2004)

*Thank You for your very friendly and interested reply.*

I am sorry to be a little sharp on those replies but at first I cannot give you ant trials (would certainly like to) and second I am quite reserved on those belivers of physics.

I have no nitromethane bows but they are just a little tricky and shoot sharp fast! 

Many thanks for your comments, I have only two of those funny sticks.!
Torsten


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## CM Sackett (Jul 20, 2005)

Mornin' Geoff,

I like your "up-front" honesty.

No demo's at this point (Arvid is building them for customers as fast as he can...).

If "Neverland" is Australia, then calling me would be a bit $$... if it's California, PM me your #, I'll call on my dime and answer any questions I can.

There have been some fine bows mentioned (I have, or do own several of them). In my book, the Black Swan is at the top of the list.


As Always;

Sackett

BTW, Torsten... I got nothin' but respect for a man who stands by what he believes regardless of the opposition. Whether your Border reaches those #s on an "American" chrono or not... a tip-o-the-hat to you for your conviction and courage!


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## Torsten (Jun 25, 2004)

CM SAckett,

I do not need courage here; I just try to keep up my consistancy and backbone!!!

Admittely I will regard different circumstances and environments but what I repeatedly claim is just what we measured. OK, All chronos in the world may not be created equal********
But if somebody doubts, he has the chance to prove it whenever.

Welcome to Finland then.

Torsten!


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## CM Sackett (Jul 20, 2005)

Dear Torsten,

JUST IN CASE, the meaning of my note to you was lost in the "cultural translation"... I'm NOT doubting your findings at all.

It was meant ONLY as a statement of honor and encouragement.


Sackett


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## Torsten (Jun 25, 2004)

Sackett, I am a little too exited, or let me say intolerant, on events on this item.
Please forgive me because these sticks just might feel fast to me.
When entering our woods I do not look at fps but to enjoy nature and eventually put a nice evening meal on the table togther with mushrooms and other lovely herbs and spices.

Appreciate if I got you wrong, but I simply do not like to discuss about figures and numbers, that is the reason we have thermometers..... for.
Thank you for your awareness and constructive message,

Torsten

P.S. season sartsin in ten days, do not expect me relaxed.......


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

CM Sackett said:


> Mornin' Geoff,
> 
> I like your "up-front" honesty.


You're welcome. 



CM Sackett said:


> No demo's at this point (Arvid is building them for customers as fast as he can...).


Dang!



CM Sackett said:


> If "Neverland" is Australia, then calling me would be a bit $$... if it's California, PM me your #, I'll call on my dime and answer any questions I can.


Nope, it's actually the Boston, MA area. I recently read Peter Pan, (the original J. M. Barrie version), and it had a profound affect on me. Much more than Lewis Carrol's "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland..." for instance. As someone who is finding himself heading into his mid-life crisis I find I can relate to Peter in his desire to "never grow up". Neverland seems like a nice place to be.


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## strummer (Jul 25, 2004)

*fast bow*

I shoot a palmer double carbon made in 93 . It is fast, I shoot beman ics classics with 100 grain brass incerts and 125 gr bh. total weight pushing 525. My bow is [email protected] and I draw a tad over 26. Its chunking them 188 to 192fps just depends If I get a clean release .I shoot a ff flmished 3braid string too.


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## Ia Hawkeye (Mar 3, 2005)

*Fast Bow*

The Morrison Shawnee with Arapahoe limbs, is one VERY fast, smoothe bow. Check out TBM mag article about 2 months ago.! I tried a bunch of Widows (at the factory in Nixa Mo.) Good bows but wouldn't trade my Morrison for any of them . Not blasting Widows, just giving credit where credit is due. I think you should check out Morrison bows.
Whatever you choose, Good shooting !!!

My opinion guys. Yours may differ.


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## TexasGuy (Jan 27, 2005)

*DougK*



DougK said:


> That doesn't sound right..
> 
> A 740 gr arrow at 201-206fps is 66-69 foot pounds energy...





I'm with you, DougK.....ain't no way a 65#, 29" recurve is going to generate 66-69 ft. lbs. with ANY weight arrow! :thumbs_do 

May be a chrono-misread, but I gotta call BS on that..... :thumbs_do 

I used to shoot an 82 lb. Shafer Silvertip, fastflight string, 29 1/4" draw with 450 grain arrows at 232 fps.....and that's only 54 ft. lbs. which is ALOT of KE for traditional bows...... 66-69 fpe??? The bull**it meter just spiked off the scale!!!!


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

What it boils down to is which bow fits you best. Speed can be measured with a chronograph, but "tests" can be, and often are, slanted in the favor of the person doing the testing. Heck, even individuals have a tendency to unconciously draw a little more when they are testing their favorite. What type string, how well it's made, number of strands, type material, serving size and amount, silencers, draw length, shooting machine, etc. etc. etc. can make a difference. Practically everything else is relative. What one person considers "tooth rattlin'" handshock, another may consider a friendly thump. A bow that one fellow considers forgiving, another may find it more picky than a mother-in-law. We all have a tendency to "like" our favorites better anyhow, else they wouldn't be our favorites. I've shot with guys that call their bow forgiving, and seen the slightest mistake tell on them in a big way. That's not forgiving to me, but I reckon it is to them. I've pulled bows that had a very smooth draw force curve, but still felt 5-10# heavier than they actually were--to me, that negates it shooting as fast as a bow 5-10# heavier. Grips that fit one person great may feel like a 2x4 to the next. In short, the bow that one person swears by, another may swear at. 

There's no such thing as one bow that's perfect for everyone. Shoot as many as you can--heck, own as many as you can--and keep the one that works best for you. 

Personally, the things I look for is a grip that fits comfortably and lack of handshock. If the grip doesn't fit, I won't like it regardless of how fast it is, and I'm too hard-headed to change the way I shoot to fit the bow--especially where there's bows that do fit me. My elbow doesn't like handshock--it a bow has much at all, my elbow will be too tender to shoot the next day. I also consider a smooth draw, speed, durability, customer service, warranty, and of course looks.

Good luck in your search!

Chad


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chad -

That about sums it up, pretty darn well too!

Viper1 out.


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## mherrera (Jul 15, 2004)

*Fastest Bow*

If those replies were to my statements, someone else is slinging bull. I chronographed 5 of my bows on the same day at the archery shop using their chronograph using the same arrows on the same day while 2 other compound shooters and 1 other recurve shooter used the same chronographed their rigs with . They and the shop owner validated their and my results assuring the equipment was working well and everyone got results that they expected. I am an AF Academy grad and Lying, stealing , and cheating are not in my way of dealing with anyone. The honor code is the most valuable thing I learned at the Academy. You certainly don't have to believe anything anyone says as most recent surveys suggest that 80-85% of people do lie or cheat on tests, but I have foulnd that most traditional archers are a cut above that . But it does make life a lot more frustrating to live in a world where people lie or spin as a policy in the media every day. There is no morality when the end justifies the means for the politically correct but morally bankrupt. This is my last reply to this thread.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

mherrera, for my part my comments weren't directed at anyone in particular, just stating my opinions based on my experiences. I've watched folks at chronographs (and I've been guilty of it myself) gaining a little bit of draw length when it came time to check their bow's speed. I had a discussion with a fellow that said that a test report proved a particular bow was just as forgiving as any, but when I read closely I saw the tests were done on a shooting machine--seeing how a shooting machine doesn't make mistakes, that report meant nothing towards whether or not the bow was forgiving. Having owned/operated a traditional archery business for several years now, I will sadly say that this sport has it's share of folks that will exaggerate a bit, along with some downright skunks.

It's nothing personal, but unless I know the individual doing the test, I take a report with a grain of salt. Too often certain details are left out, variables aren't considered, mistakes are made, etc. Sometimes I'll disregard a report because I DO know the person well enough to know that there is probably more to it than is stated.

There's lots of great bows on the market, and in my opinion not enough difference in the speed of the better ones to make much if any difference to 99% of the archers. Most of us simply can't shoot the difference. A 5-10 mph difference in a car might be a big thing to a NASCAR driver, but for the rest of us on the open road, it's nothing. I feel the same way about bows.

If there was one or two bowyers, or bows, that was head and shoulders above everything else, it seems to me that they would put everyone else out of business in short order, or at least have everyone else copying their designs. Haven't seen that happening yet.

Chad


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## mherrera (Jul 15, 2004)

*Lbr*

As My friend Sackett pointed out to me your comments were not directed to me or my thread. Having hastily replied I must apologize to you and anyone who felt my comment was directed at them. When notified by archery talk that a reply was made to my thread I presumed ti was directed to me. Seems like crow is always tough to eat when served up by misunderstanding and sauteed with pride.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

No problem at all--I'm just glad it was cleared up!

I know I have a habit of being blunt sometimes. I don't mean to be offensive, but I guess I come across that way at time. Sorry I came across that way this time.

Chad


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