# The way to GROW 3D archery!



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

We are always talking about how to grow the sport but it seldom seems to grow. This has been on my mind for a long time so I'm just gonna put it out there.... I know this will not be popular with some but I PROMISE it will work! The whole key to this is HIGHER ENTRY FEES AND BETTER PRIZES!...I Rodeo'd (roped calves and team roped) for a long time. I traveled to many states doing this. It was always the same 'ol thing...you drive for hours on end, go compete and IF you win you may come home with a few hundred bucks! (sound fimilar?) 

This went on for a long time before the advent of organizations like the USTRC (United States Team Roping Association) along with others... This all started as a grassroots movement in team roping. They were aggressive in gathering sponsors and put on large roping's and charged a higher entry fee than the local hometown arena did BUT their payoff's were MUCH higher!!! and gave away really nice prizes along with the money! Before long the popularity AND the money grew to where a person could win several hundred dollars finnishing in 20th PLACE!!! not to mention SEVERAL THOUSAND dollars for winning! (and I'm talking the amateur classess!) along with the money was really nice belt buckles or really nice saddles!!! 

Needless to say this took off like wild fire and is still going strong to this day!!! Did this allienate some who couldn't pay the higher fee's? Yes, it sure did! Some of those people still competed in the sport at the small local ropings, where they wouldn't win alot but at the same time didn't have to put up the higher entry fees...and they were/are perfectly content with that! THEN you have alot of those that will take the risk and that develope the "Gamblers" mentallity. "Yeah, it's gonna cost me $300 - $400 just in entry fees BUT if I have a good day I can walk away with $5,000 to $10,000!!! PLUS a SUPER NICE buckle or saddle I'll have forever!!" (again keep in mind I'm talking about the amateur classes!).... eventually it even draws some of those people who "couldn't afford it" in and they get hooked! 

For anyone who watches the PBR (Professional Bull Rider's Assoc.) That's how it got started... Bull riders were tired of driving all over the country to a PRCA rodeo just to win MAYBE $2,000! (take away fuel/travel expenses!) They can travel to a PBR event and win over $30,000 in one trip!!!! That's why for a long time you saw the best riders on the PBR tour and NOT at the rodeo's!

The NFAA has tried to grow their sport from the PRO ranks. What they are trying to do WILL NOT EVER WORK! You HAVE to grow it from the amatures! THINK ABOUT IT... who do want to cater to and throw money at?...THE MAJORITY! Who is that? THE AMATEURS!!! The PROS will eventually reap the rewards. The more AM's in it the more they will want to see the pro's (more sponsorship, schools, private lessons, so on and so on...)

This ideology worked in the rodeo industry and I really think it would work in 3D archery!


----------



## Junebughasty (Dec 22, 2008)

makes alot of sense!!!! im in !!!


----------



## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Here is what has taken Texas from 6 ASA Clubs in 2004 to 30 ASA clubs in 2012. 

Enthusiam-If your leadership is enthusiastic your clubs and shooters will be enthusiastic. Get a SOY program started. Give shooters a reason and a goal to attend more shoots. 

Consistency-It is important to make sure all clubs run the shoots the same. My wife and I or our reps are at every shoot to make sure this happens. We are fortuante here in Texas because we have 30 ASA clubs and we are all on the same page. Our ASA program requires 10:00am shotgun starts, we do our best to make sure groups are paired fairly, we run a fast efficient registration, and we present the awards as soon as the scores are tabulated. We post scores on the Texas ASA Federation website the next day. Take a look at our website...www.texasasafederation.com

Discipline-We chrono all adult and youth classes. We check stabilizers lengths in classes that have stabilizer limitations. We will most likely be checking binos this weekend.. I have DQ'ed enough shooters over the years that they know we are serious about enforcing the rules.

The above items along with a lot of hard work will get results. We have led the nation in ASA state level attendance for the last several years. We have already had 262 shooters at one state qualifier and 284 shooters at another this year. We are expecting 400 shooters at the Texas state champonship this year. 

We have a $30.00 entry fee. For most shooters this is about their limit. Many are paying for a whole family (Young Adult, Youth, and Eagle fee are less). Out of this entry fee we contribute to an award fund. This award fund pays for beautiful Gist buckles for the state champions and SOY winners as well and plaques and medallions for the kids at every state qualifier. 

If you ever need any help give us a shout. We are always willing to help.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Tallcatt said:


> Here is what has taken Texas from 6 ASA Clubs in 2004 to 30 ASA clubs in 2012.
> 
> Enthusiam-If your leadership is enthusiastic your clubs and shooters will be enthusiastic. Get a SOY program started. Give shooters a reason and a goal to attend more shoots.
> 
> ...


Texas is growing and doing allot of things right. Mike you that state should be commended on doing allot of things right. Plan to shoot the Archers for Christ in Paris again this year.
DB


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Look at how popular all forms of archery are in Europe. Most archers shoot at least 2 different disciplines. There are less divisions, no pay-outs, and way more targets.
If you want to grow 3D then give it some substance. 40 shots a day isn't unreasonable and more would be better. Enforce time limits at the stake and reduce them, get people more for their money.

-Grant


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Mike and Tracey, Yall are doing a GREAT job with Texas ASA! We really appreciate everything. What I am talking about is at the national level because if this were to take off like I know it can you will have 300 shooters in one class! A national event would be more able to accomodate this many people I would think. 

Will some not come at first because of the higher entry? Yes! but like I've seen many times the bigger payback eventually draws alot of them in. The USTRC was started by three guys sitting on the tailgate of a truck talking about how to grow and change the sport and now gives away MILLIONS of dollars in payout! Can anyone imagine winning an AMATUER class at the classic and taking home $50,000? It CAN happen!

The reason I make the reference to the USTRC is because it, like 3D, is not a huge spectator sport. When the pros would rope it was just like a PRO/AM shootdown, the only people watching were all the amatuers. No national TV coverage. No local coverage that I was ever aware of? 

I am not the person for this I'm just putting the info out there because I have seen it work! The man who changed the roping world is Denny Gentry from New Mexico if anyone ever wanted try and contact him and gather info.


----------



## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

I have always thought one we have to unify all the rules into one organization, then like Texas has grow it state by state to the point that its more then a SE thing. I would love to have something in Iowa to shoot, we have nothing but a bunch of local clubs that try to cater to the hunters just to get attendance. If Texas can do it I don't see any reason a majority of the states could not do something similar, get all the local clubs on the same page then everyone will know what you are even talking about when you talk about national level shoots. A 3d shoot in most places I"m sure doesn't even resemble a big ASA shoot or IBO. So when I go up to a local guy that is interested in shoot and talk about wanting to go shoot a big ASA event they don't have a clue, you mean you don't have to shoot around trees and through brush, what do you mean I can't take my rangefinder, what the heck do you have a stool to sit on for, etc, etc.


----------



## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

WhitBri said:


> I have always thought one we have to unify all the rules into one organization, then like Texas has grow it state by state to the point that its more then a SE thing. I would love to have something in Iowa to shoot, we have nothing but a bunch of local clubs that try to cater to the hunters just to get attendance. If Texas can do it I don't see any reason a majority of the states could not do something similar, get all the local clubs on the same page then everyone will know what you are even talking about when you talk about national level shoots. A 3d shoot in most places I"m sure doesn't even resemble a big ASA shoot or IBO. So when I go up to a local guy that is interested in shoot and talk about wanting to go shoot a big ASA event they don't have a clue, you mean you don't have to shoot around trees and through brush, what do you mean I can't take my rangefinder, what the heck do you have a stool to sit on for, etc, etc.


Its funny you should mention Iowa. My wife, Tracy, if from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. We have a 60 acre farm in S.E. Iowa near Bloomfield. Tracy and I have often talked about how we could help getting ASA going in Iowa. Hey....ASA's title sponsor, Delta-McKenzie is from Iowa, but we have no state federation in Iowa ???

Well...we were sitting in line at the RV dump station after the Texas Pro/Am last Sunday in Paris. I see a trailer with Iowa plates. When the guys that owned the trailer walked by I stopped them, asked them where in Iowa they were from, and we started talking. Long story short....I have an ASA club packet headed their way and they are interested in becomeing an ASA club. They were from Southwest Iowa Bowhunters Archery Club in Braddyville, Iowa.

We also have Loess Hills Archery Club in Woodbine, Little River Archers in Leon, and Flint River Bowhunters in West Burlington. I am going to get in touch with all of these clubs and try and get a 4 qualifier series and a state championship for THIS year. We are the Texas state directors but we will be glad to help get ASA started in Iowa.:smile:


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tallcatt said:


> Here is what has taken Texas from 6 ASA Clubs in 2004 to 30 ASA clubs in 2012.
> 
> Enthusiam-If your leadership is enthusiastic your clubs and shooters will be enthusiastic. Get a SOY program started. Give shooters a reason and a goal to attend more shoots.
> 
> ...


Good for Texas! However, Texas seems to have something other states don't, willingness of it's members. Illinois was tied with Texas until last year for member clubs and turn out for Qualifiers and State Championships is heartbreaking. Maybe 30 for a Qualifier and I think maybe 90 high for the first time at last year's State Championship.
I wonder how Texas is for 3D clubs per weekend? Here in Illiniois there are some 19 clubs, including 4 indoor ranges, within 1 hour's drive of my house. Fees for these ranges run from $8.00, $10 and $12 for 30 targets and 2 other clubs have $10 for 40 targets. ASA events run $25 for mostly 30 targets.

Me looking around my next of the woods; When most all the archers already know their limitations shelling more money at ASA event to just be a "filler" just doesn't set well. Money isn't always the issue. Pressure is. Put State Championship or name the event to give a high profile and people are going somewhere else to have fun.


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Tallcatt said:


> Its funny you should mention Iowa. My wife, Tracy, if from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. We have a 60 acre farm in S.E. Iowa near Bloomfield. Tracy and I have often talked about how we could help getting ASA going in Iowa. Hey....ASA's title sponsor, Delta-McKenzie is from Iowa, but we have no state federation in Iowa ???
> 
> Well...we were sitting in line at the RV dump station after the Texas Pro/Am last Sunday in Paris. I see a trailer with Iowa plates. When the guys that owned the trailer walked by I stopped them, asked them where in Iowa they were from, and we started talking. Long story short....I have an ASA club packet headed their way and they are interested in becomeing an ASA club. They were from Southwest Iowa Bowhunters Archery Club in Braddyville, Iowa.
> 
> We also have Loess Hills Archery Club in Woodbine, Little River Archers in Leon, and Flint River Bowhunters in West Burlington. I am going to get in touch with all of these clubs and try and get a 4 qualifier series and a state championship for THIS year. We are the Texas state directors but we will be glad to help get ASA started in Iowa.:smile:


Awesome!!! Way to go Mike!!!!


----------



## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

I biggest hurdle to all of this is that the top 5% of archers win everything and the gap between that top 5% and the average guy is huge. I think along with trying to grow our sport we need to each individually work hard to teach and help more average guys get to the point they can compete against the top 5%. I'm not even talking the pro which are 5% of the top 5%. The average guys can't come close to shooting up on an average 3d course not because they can't judge range but they can't shoot well enough to put a 30 yard shot in a 2 in circle. So if you see someone at your local range struggling or wanting to shoot better offer up some advice if you can. I think the majority of us know its not a huge big secret to shoot well but most archers just grab a bow and start shooting with no advice or coaching whatsoever.


----------



## Koorsboom (Dec 13, 2008)

Phew ... and I thought we were having problems with shoot attendance here in South Africa :wink:

Thanks for some ideas as I am trying to get just 30 people to attend monthly shoots in an area where we know there are over 800 bows ... I must admit that what gets me is that many archers are complaining that they don't have a place to shoot, but put on an event and nobody shows up ...

But keep the ideas comming ... I am sure it will help sme of us ... :thumbs_up


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Jay-J said:


> We are always talking about how to grow the sport but it seldom seems to grow. This has been on my mind for a long time so I'm just gonna put it out there....
> 
> The NFAA has tried to grow their sport from the PRO ranks. What they are trying to do WILL NOT EVER WORK! You HAVE to grow it from the amatures! THINK ABOUT IT... who do want to cater to and throw money at?...THE MAJORITY! Who is that? THE AMATEURS!!! ...
> ... I really think it would work in 3D archery!


You know what they say about insanity! Well the NFAA has certainly been doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for different results! I agree with this 100%. NFAA, IBO, & ASA have not thoroughly addressed the 'root of the problem' that has caused the stagnation of numbers in 3D Archery. I know for a fact that most kids like 3D better than any kind of spots. But you don't see a national organization really go after building one. The demand is clearly there and could certainly be formally identified if anyone would do the work.
In post #3 the word "enthusiasm" is defined as a critical factor in Texas success. I agree. "Enthusiasm Sells!" All of Texas stated points for success are important, yet enthusiasm is huge! The other stated things protect that enthusiasm.
The regular bowhunters are the folks that the organizations and industry needs to target to get them into the sport - not the shooters. The shooters are already committed. 
I challenge the industry leaders and organizations to thoroughly interview men and women that don't shoot 3D that do bowhunt. The sample size needs to be large and from all the bowhunting states. I'd suggest that they focus on the guys and gals that don't regularly shoot 3d and those who have once and were 'put off' by it. I'd also like to see research done by them to ask kids what they thought was cooler - spot style targets vs 3d. The kids would need to see dinosaur and alien and maybe monster targets along with animals.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

WhitBri said:


> I biggest hurdle to all of this is that the top 5% of archers win everything and the gap between that top 5% and the average guy is huge. I think along with trying to grow our sport we need to each individually work hard to teach and help more average guys get to the point they can compete against the top 5%. I'm not even talking the pro which are 5% of the top 5%. The average guys can't come close to shooting up on an average 3d course not because they can't judge range but they can't shoot well enough to put a 30 yard shot in a 2 in circle. So if you see someone at your local range struggling or wanting to shoot better offer up some advice if you can. I think the majority of us know its not a huge big secret to shoot well but most archers just grab a bow and start shooting with no advice or coaching whatsoever.


You are correct. The top % is always right there and the average guy is in the bottom %. But the problem is the average person has no desire to shoot on a higher level. The average person gets so good and that's good enough for them, whether coached or not. They shoot to have fun. First and foremost I hear something on the order of this; "I don't shoot more than 25 yards when hunting." You can't help someone to be better when there is no drive or desire to be better.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> You are correct. The top % is always right there and the average guy is in the bottom %. But the problem is the average person has no desire to shoot on a higher level. The average person gets so good and that's good enough for them, whether coached or not. They shoot to have fun. First and foremost I hear something on the order of this; "I don't shoot more than 25 yards when hunting." You can't help someone to be better when there is no drive or desire to be better.


So then the question becomes "How do I create the desire 'to be better', in someone else?".


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Jay-J said:


> We are always talking about how to grow the sport but it seldom seems to grow. This has been on my mind for a long time so I'm just gonna put it out there.... I know this will not be popular with some but I PROMISE it will work! The whole key to this is HIGHER ENTRY FEES AND BETTER PRIZES!...I Rodeo'd (roped calves and team roped) for a long time. I traveled to many states doing this. It was always the same 'ol thing...you drive for hours on end, go compete and IF you win you may come home with a few hundred bucks! (sound fimilar?)
> 
> This went on for a long time before the advent of organizations like the USTRC (United States Team Roping Association) along with others... This all started as a grassroots movement in team roping. They were aggressive in gathering sponsors and put on large roping's and charged a higher entry fee than the local hometown arena did BUT their payoff's were MUCH higher!!! and gave away really nice prizes along with the money! Before long the popularity AND the money grew to where a person could win several hundred dollars finnishing in 20th PLACE!!! not to mention SEVERAL THOUSAND dollars for winning! (and I'm talking the amateur classess!) along with the money was really nice belt buckles or really nice saddles!!!
> 
> ...


The more I read and think of what you have and I think this won't work. *Archery has so many people to draw from and that's it. We don't and won't have the sponsors or spectators rodeo has. 
Man against beast in one thing. Man using a weapon of violence for play just doesn't get it. Ride the beast, catch the beast has all the elements archery lacks. Man standing in front of target or 3D target with a bow and that's it. The audience can't see the blazing speed of the arrow. There is no noise or announcer giving a exciting commentary.

*There many national event scores to look at. See how many of same Semi Pros and Pros there are. See how many are doing double and triple duty shooting in ASA, IBO and NFAA events.
* Amatuers. They know their ability - as they know they can't win. Tack high on higher entry fees and many will soon be gone. Look at the nationals. Some are there to compete. A lot are there just because it's a high profile event - prestiege or bragging rights; "I shot Vegas!"
*Look and find State Champions. You will hard pressed to find them in the news or publications. No organization high lites them unless it's good PR for the organization. I suggested to the ASA a forum dedicated to Champions and finishers. The idea was found in good favor, but nothing ever came of it. This date, this time; I just checked the ASA forums. Damn few Championship results posted for our state, Illinois. 2011's was not. Search gave 32 posts for Illinois. 11 were mine. Appears to be 2 Championship results, mine and another.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> The more I read and think of what you have and I think this won't work. *Archery has so many people to draw from and that's it. We don't and won't have the sponsors or spectators rodeo has.
> Man against beast in one thing. Man using a weapon of violence for play just doesn't get it. Ride the beast, catch the beast has all the elements archery lacks. Man standing in front of target or 3D target with a bow and that's it. The audience can't see the blazing speed of the arrow. There is no noise or announcer giving a exciting commentary.
> 
> *There many national event scores to look at. See how many of same Semi Pros and Pros there are. See how many are doing double and triple duty shooting in ASA, IBO and NFAA events.
> ...


Gotta keep asking the question:"How do you create the demand in the non-participants' mind?" Keep asking and eventually someone will nail it! How do you think the compound bow finally took off as an option?


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

its not the participants who bring the money, its the spectators. as far as comparing to PBR, its not completely a fair comparison...

one dynamic missing from archery compared to things like PBR is the spectator aspect, ticket sales, etc. the only pool for prize money are entry fees and sponsorships, and even then, what do the sponsors get out of it? an already captive audience of archers. someone who is not familiar with PBR may go to the event just to see what it is about, but not archery.

secondly, unless you are competing, the events are boring to watch since its hours and hours simply waiting for someone to make a mistake. curious spectators looking for something different are more prone to go to a soccer game than an indoor archery shoot... and I say that as a soccer player and a coach of premier level teams.

third, the venues dont lend themselves to spectators. if the big tourney courses were set up like a golf course where people could watch, it would be alot more interesting. IBO is the worst at this.. try to go watch the pros shoot their course. I go to the big IBO events and the only interaction with the pros is in the vendor area. I would love to watch them shoot. Yes, there is the shootoff but that is very limited to the few left standing. 

There is no excitement or spectator involvement in competitive archery unless you are a participant. That would need to change first. Bring the spectators and the money and participation will follow.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Bucks said:


> its not the participants who bring the money, its the spectators. as far as comparing to PBR, its not valid...
> 
> one dynamic missing from archery compared to things like PBR is the spectator aspect, ticket sales, etc. the only pool for prize money are entry fees and sponsorships, and even then, what do the sponsors get out of it? an already captive audience of archers. someone who is not familiar with PBR may go to the event just to see what it is about, but not archery.
> 
> ...


This can be done! Archery Shack in Wisconsin did a great job. I was amazed at my non shooting sisters family response to them watching me at an indoor shoot. They all got into it after that. Make no mistake about it AS did it right. Not sure why they closed, my quess was an incomplete business plan. When they were open their facility was 'top-shelf' and first class.

Well drive fast and turn left. Hmmm... boring! Nascar is now a huge fun event! If they can do it then so can archery. Again ..."how do you create the demand?"


----------



## BigGobbler (Feb 11, 2010)

With gas prices continuing to spiral up I fear this will keep more people away from the ranges. It is one factor I hear people say why they don't travel. People will that are shooting will just be more selective on when and where they shoot. Now if better pay out and prizes are part of the shoot I believe this will draw people aslong as the entry fee is not too high. With all the buzz in Hollywood with its new romance with the Bow and arrow and the Oylimpics televising the events this can only help.


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

Kinda.. NASCAR and PBR are certainly skill sports with amazing talent. However, those sports also have the "horrific trainwreck at any moment" running in the back of the spectators minds. I have little interest in rodeo, but if I am surfing and catch it on ESPN, I certainly watch in amazement at why any sane person would jump on the back of a ton of clearly po'ed ripped muscle who would love nothing more than stomp and spear the intruder who dared jump on his back. NASCAR has the same element, e.g. Montoya drilling the dryer at Daytona.

If archery can add the spectator element, it would go a long way.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Bucks said:


> Kinda.. NASCAR and PBR are certainly skill sports with amazing talent. However, those sports also have the "horrific trainwreck at any moment" running in the back of the spectators minds. I have little interest in rodeo, but if I am surfing and catch it on ESPN, I certainly watch in amazement at why any sane person would jump on the back of a ton of clearly po'ed ripped muscle who would love nothing more than stomp and spear the intruder who dared jump on his back. NASCAR has the same element, e.g. Montoya drilling the dryer at Daytona.
> 
> If archery can add the spectator element, it would go a long way.


Say...golf! If golf can do it archery can.


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

compared to golf... my thought is the competitive environment must have more of an element of when things go bad, they go very bad. in golf, you have water, tight fairways, and more things to penalize the competitor if they mess up. lets take the pro 3d stuff for a minute. what if you pushed the limit from 50 to 70 yards with people watching? and then popped a turkey in the shadows at 60... it would be VERY interesting to watch how they handle that, and when the guy pinwheels the target, utter amazement.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

BigGobbler said:


> With gas prices continuing to spiral up I fear this will keep more people away from the ranges. It is one factor I hear people say why they don't travel. People will that are shooting will just be more selective on when and where they shoot. Now if better pay out and prizes are part of the shoot I believe this will draw people aslong as the entry fee is not too high. With all the buzz in Hollywood with its new romance with the Bow and arrow and the Oylimpics televising the events this can only help.


I don't believe gas price has anything to do with most purchase decisions. In America most people will do what they truly want to do. I hear gas prices used mostly as an excuse. At Gander I heard it all the time and 10 seconds later the same folks are dropping a thousand bucks on a new gun - to shoot in the back yard? Hardly! Those same folks will get excited about something and spend a bunch of money on it. Why not create the demand and excitement for 3D archery?


----------



## BigGobbler (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree there are the people and folks that do that. I must be in the wrong business because I do have a budget. It does dictate what I go to and what I don't. If I don't have it or its not in the budget, I work OT part time jobs side jobs etc then I go. There will always be the person(s) that will go no matter what but if you think the Country's present state of affairs hasn't effected Archery or any other sport, past time etc I think your mistaken. I'm all about promoting and seeing it blossom. I do agree the excitment and demand needs to be factored in some how. I believe this is one of the key elements.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Say...golf! If golf can do it archery can.


Not in my mind. Golf ball can be seen in flight. Golf ball can seen rolling on the green, hopefully in the cup. Golfer showing good form and great swing. Archer has good form, but little movement at the shot. Again commentary, the announcer telling many things as the golfer looks at the range/flag for the cup. Golf spectators right there. Spectators can't pile up for just one 3D shooter or target.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Gotta keep asking the question:"How do you create the demand in the non-participants' mind?" Keep asking and eventually someone will nail it! How do you think the compound bow finally took off as an option?


Entirely different. Said numerous times in magazine and publications; The compound took off because more people could shoot them better and be better with less practice than stick or recurve bows.

Answers are within this thread. Dissect the replies, negatives pieces to the left, pieces that could be or are positive to the right.
List positives and what could be positive and the correction needed for others to look over.

At the point of it being abrasive; 3 1/2 million archers and only some 60,000 belonging to the big archery organizations.


----------



## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

Get rid of binos, scopes, stabs and speed limits! You would be amazed how many people start showing up to shoots!

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


----------



## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

And separate the kids from the adults! Nothing worse than a bunch of spoiled snotnoses ruining my day!

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

hatchettjack said:


> And separate the kids from the adults! Nothing worse than a bunch of spoiled snotnoses ruining my day!
> 
> Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


Yup, that is the attitude to grow 3D........


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

our kids are our future, take a kid to a 3D shoot or would you rather see them end up in prison! its up to the parents to make there kids behave, I say take a kid hunting,fishing or to a 3D shoot!


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

BigGobbler said:


> I agree there are the people and folks that do that. I must be in the wrong business because I do have a budget. It does dictate what I go to and what I don't. If I don't have it or its not in the budget, I work OT part time jobs side jobs etc then I go. There will always be the person(s) that will go no matter what but if you think the Country's present state of affairs hasn't effected Archery or any other sport, past time etc I think your mistaken. I'm all about promoting and seeing it blossom. I do agree the excitment and demand needs to be factored in some how. I believe this is one of the key elements.


That's not what I said! I was referring strictly to gas prices.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Not in my mind. Golf ball can be seen in flight. Golf ball can seen rolling on the green, hopefully in the cup. Golfer showing good form and great swing. Archer has good form, but little movement at the shot. Again commentary, the announcer telling many things as the golfer looks at the range/flag for the cup. Golf spectators right there. Spectators can't pile up for just one 3D shooter or target.


Ever watch golf 30 years ago? Just as boring as 3d is now. The golf industry changed a ton of stuff to make it apealing.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Entirely different. Said numerous times in magazine and publications; The compound took off because more people could shoot them better and be better with less practice than stick or recurve bows.
> 
> Answers are within this thread. Dissect the replies, negatives pieces to the left, pieces that could be or are positive to the right.
> List positives and what could be positive and the correction needed for others to look over.
> ...


No it is no different at all! People had to see the early compounds. They HAD TO BE EXPOSED to them before the demand could be created. What is being done to expose bowhunters to 3d? And no the answers are not in this thread - not to the questions I am asking. 
Why are they willing to accept this? Nascar didn't, golf didn't, pro football didn't - heck when I was a kid you could see college ball all the time on tv - but not pro ball. The NFL was a joke back then. So if you want to accept things the way they are you go right ahead. I don't, and I won't.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

hatchettjack said:


> Get rid of binos, scopes, stabs and speed limits! You would be amazed how many people start showing up to shoots!
> 
> Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


This I have experienced first hand too many times! You are right - this format will get more bowhunters into the sport. Although short stabilizers are used by most hunters, target equipment turns most pure bowhunters off.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

hatchettjack said:


> And separate the kids from the adults! Nothing worse than a bunch of spoiled snotnoses ruining my day!
> 
> Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


I'm assuming you are joking here! If not then I'd say you are the exception as most adults like having kids involved.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

reylamb said:


> Yup, that is the attitude to grow 3D........


LOL!! Another jokster!!


----------



## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

Mac of Michigan said:


> I'm assuming you are joking here! If not then I'd say you are the exception as most adults like having kids involved.


Dead serious! They shouldnt be shooting with adults. Beyond popular belief, lots of people dont care about kids!

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

U must fit that category.


----------



## MoBuzzCut (Aug 22, 2007)

hatchettjack said:


> And separate the kids from the adults! Nothing worse than a bunch of spoiled snotnoses ruining my day!
> 
> Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


We had a club here in MO get rid of Binos and it about killed the club they have allowed binos again amd they are getting shooters again


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

hatchettjack said:


> Dead serious! They shouldnt be shooting with adults. Beyond popular belief, lots of people dont care about kids!
> 
> Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


Interesting observation! That hasn't been my experience though. And I do think kids have to be considered the future of the sport.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

MoBuzzCut said:


> We had a club here in MO get rid of Binos and it about killed the club they have allowed binos again amd they are getting shooters again


Do the clubs have mostly hunters or are there some target guys too?


----------



## Huey04 (Oct 15, 2008)

I am in Texas and I love all of the 3D options we have and try to make at least 5-6 shoots a year, I've even shot well enough to get a payback a few times. I can definitely say that I would not be attending any more shoots if the entry fee went above $30-$40. I already miss a few of the shoots when I stop to think how much the entry is going to be on top of the fuel to get there and when there is a closer local club 3D with a 10-15 entry or a field shoot going on.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

While the higher entry fees that the OP suggested are a start, there will need to be money from other sources too. This of course means sponsors and advertisers. The bow companies and others in the archery industry are doing about as much as they can. They can likely do a little more, but not enough to push this over the top.

Advertisers will have to come from other industries and they want enough audience to make a good return on their advertising dollars. It's possible, but it will take some creativity to make it happen. Like other sports, archery payouts can only grow if it offers entertainment to those outside of the industry. 

I don't know how to make that happen. It sounds like the guys in Texas have it figured out better than anyone else. 

JMHO, 
Allen


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> No it is no different at all! People had to see the early compounds. They HAD TO BE EXPOSED to them before the demand could be created. What is being done to expose bowhunters to 3d? And no the answers are not in this thread - not to the questions I am asking.
> Why are they willing to accept this? Nascar didn't, golf didn't, pro football didn't - heck when I was a kid you could see college ball all the time on tv - but not pro ball. The NFL was a joke back then. So if you want to accept things the way they are you go right ahead. I don't, and I won't.


And who says bowhunters aren't exposed to 3D? Someone is supporting the vast number of down home, local archer clubs. They just don't belong to big archery organization. Hey, 5 members are required to be a NFAA club. 10 members are required to be either a ASA or IBO club. Last year our club had something of 120 members. Guess what? Yeah, 10 were members of the ASA and only 5 competed in a ASA event. Whether you like it or not this is the way it is across the nation.

Try to force club members to become members of a archery organization and the club will die. I base this on our club's history. Our club was established in 1964. I read tons of our club's history through many Constitutions and By-Laws and Minutes of meetings. At one time is was required to join the NFAA to be a member. Worked for awhile and the club started losing members and shooters. Constitution revised a couple of times down to only having the required five NFAA members for club status membership and shooters came back. Okay, it took time. We have been a NFAA club, a IBO club, back to a NFAA club and double dutied as a NFAA/ASA club and now a ASA club.


----------



## BigGobbler (Feb 11, 2010)

yep, yep


----------



## knox_nate (Dec 27, 2009)

I have never attended an ASA shoot and had never shot in a league shoot until this past winter. I will be going to the remaining ASA shoots, because I have learned more about the shoots. I was uneducated on 3d shoots (and still am really) and the unknown is kind of intimidating. You look at the novice classes, which is supposed to be a beginners class, and you see some pretty high scores. That kind of made me have second thoughts about driving all the way to a shoot instead of just staying home and shoot. 

I think the more education there is about the classes the more the interest will grow. I have friends that have never shot a bow before but after hearing about local shoots their interest grows. People can't really see how the competition can come out in a shoot and how much fun it can be.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> And who says bowhunters aren't exposed to 3D? Someone is supporting the vast number of down home, local archer clubs. They just don't belong to big archery organization. Hey, 5 members are required to be a NFAA club. 10 members are required to be either a ASA or IBO club. Last year our club had something of 120 members. Guess what? Yeah, 10 were members of the ASA and only 5 competed in a ASA event. Whether you like it or not this is the way it is across the nation.
> 
> Try to force club members to become members of a archery organization and the club will die. I base this on our club's history. Our club was established in 1964. I read tons of our club's history through many Constitutions and By-Laws and Minutes of meetings. At one time is was required to join the NFAA to be a member. Worked for awhile and the club started losing members and shooters. Constitution revised a couple of times down to only having the required five NFAA members for club status membership and shooters came back. Okay, it took time. We have been a NFAA club, a IBO club, back to a NFAA club and double dutied as a NFAA/ASA club and now a ASA club.


Me. And the guys I worked with at all 3 proshops and at Gander Mountain. Work a retail archery store - especially big box outlets and you find out pretty fast how much the average bowhunter does not know! Most of our customers at Gander had never shot a 3d course or a tournament or a shoot.

I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do or join anything! Period. I am stating that there is a huge need to first expose the bowhunters to 3D, and then get them to WANT to participate. If you don't or haven't worked in the retail end of the archery business, you probably are not aware of how few hunters have any knowledge of 3d as a sport. Every day I worked at Gander I had people say "What is 3d?" Or "Oh you mean the deer targets? I already have one in my back yard." They had no clue what 3d the sport is.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

knox_nate said:


> I have never attended an ASA shoot and had never shot in a league shoot until this past winter. I will be going to the remaining ASA shoots, because I have learned more about the shoots. I was uneducated on 3d shoots (and still am really) and the unknown is kind of intimidating. You look at the novice classes, which is supposed to be a beginners class, and you see some pretty high scores. That kind of made me have second thoughts about driving all the way to a shoot instead of just staying home and shoot.
> 
> I think the more education there is about the classes the more the interest will grow. I have friends that have never shot a bow before but after hearing about local shoots their interest grows. People can't really see how the competition can come out in a shoot and how much fun it can be.


Thanks for posting this!

This is exactly what I am talking about - Knox_nate *WANTS* to shoot more 3d! Good job to the ASA down there! :thumbs_up


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Me. And the guys I worked with at all 3 proshops and at Gander Mountain. Work a retail archery store - especially big box outlets and you find out pretty fast how much the average bowhunter does not know! Most of our customers at Gander had never shot a 3d course or a tournament or a shoot.


You don't want to accept the truth. The 3 1/2 million archers have existed for a number years and just isn't growing by leaps and bounds. Yes, archers and new archers are finding out about 3D every year and still the number doesn't grow for competing archers.



Mac of Michigan said:


> I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do or join anything! Period. I am stating that there is a huge need to first expose the bowhunters to 3D, and then get them to WANT to participate. If you don't or haven't worked in the retail end of the archery business, you probably are not aware of how few hunters have any knowledge of 3d as a sport. Every day I worked at Gander I had people say "What is 3d?" Or "Oh you mean the deer targets? I already have one in my back yard." They had no clue what 3d the sport is.




Try archery club member for numerous years - member of two. Try Sec/Trea of archery club for 9 straight years. Try three year term as Central Board Member of the IAA. Try short term as ASA Indoor Area Rep. Try competing in archery every week for the past 13 years. Try employee/manager of a small archery shop.

You, sir, are the one clueless.....


----------



## MoBuzzCut (Aug 22, 2007)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Do the clubs have mostly hunters or are there some target guys too?


Both


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> You don't want to accept the truth. The 3 1/2 million archers have existed for a number years and just isn't growing by leaps and bounds. Yes, archers and new archers are finding out about 3D every year and still the number doesn't grow for competing archers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Sonny I'm not clueless AND I'm not calling you names either!:thumbs_do 
So since you seem to have a strong need to be right I'll just bow out of conversing with you. Good luck in your endeavors!


----------



## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

knox_nate said:


> I have never attended an ASA shoot and had never shot in a league shoot until this past winter. I will be going to the remaining ASA shoots, because I have learned more about the shoots. I was uneducated on 3d shoots (and still am really) and the unknown is kind of intimidating. You look at the novice classes, which is supposed to be a beginners class, and you see some pretty high scores. That kind of made me have second thoughts about driving all the way to a shoot instead of just staying home and shoot.
> 
> I think the more education there is about the classes the more the interest will grow. I have friends that have never shot a bow before but after hearing about local shoots their interest grows. People can't really see how the competition can come out in a shoot and how much fun it can be.


I agree. Great post.

I hear it all the time. "I am not good enough or I dont want to shoot against you". We as archers need to introduce and educate bowhunters or anyone that is interested in archery. To me that is key. 
Another key thing is we shouldnt fight amongst ourselves or get offended by someones opinions on here. Its tough not to but disagreements should be handles through PMs.
Jame


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> So since you seem to have a strong need to be right I'll just bow out of conversing with you.


Any you seemed the same strong need to be right. But thanks.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

knox_nate said:


> I have never attended an ASA shoot and had never shot in a league shoot until this past winter. I will be going to the remaining ASA shoots, because I have learned more about the shoots. I was uneducated on 3d shoots (and still am really) and the unknown is kind of intimidating. You look at the novice classes, which is supposed to be a beginners class, and you see some pretty high scores. That kind of made me have second thoughts about driving all the way to a shoot instead of just staying home and shoot.


You are oh so telling the truth. Many archery shooters learn much from competing. The first few shoots are sort of intimidating, but friends and good people easy the tension.
Yes, the Bow Novice class is something else. It has been the subject of many debates. Some want it overhauled, fixed or just plain eliminated. However, it is a learn class and one should take advantage of it.



knox_nate said:


> I think the more education there is about the classes the more the interest will grow. I have friends that have never shot a bow before but after hearing about local shoots their interest grows. People can't really see how the competition can come out in a shoot and how much fun it can be.


A lot of us promote archery, some so-so up through some living promoting archery. With the Internet getting educated about classes is just searching out organizations and reading the rules and rules for that class.
The ASA and IBO have forums so questions can be asked and the knowledgeable try to help explain. If a member of the ASA as you say, join the forums. You will get questions answered, guaranteed. And there is a Coach forum. So ask.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZIyjSRGonU

Got this link from another thread here on AT! If these guys can do it for field archery then it can be done for 3D.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> LOL!! Another jokster!!


How so?


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

reylamb said:


> How so?


I took your post that I was responding to as sarcastic. Were you being sarcastic? That was my presumption.


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

I'm not sure if I should be posting in this thread for my thoughts diverge from what I think is the majority. In fact, I wonder just where the people are going to come from if the sport of 3D is to grow. Where from, the bowhunting ranks?

There is talk on here about sponsorships and TV coverage and higher entry fees. I'm not saying any of this is bad, but I think the sport has evolved into one of competition with paybacks, already high entry fees. I think making them higher would only scare off some that are on the edge. All I ever read on here is about IBO, ASA, NFAA and such. The rules, the payback money. This might all be well and good for serious 3D shooters, but what about those bowhunters that wish only to participate in local shoots to practice for hunting or for the joy of just getting out? It seems the more organized 3D becomes the more it leaves these folks behind, and they are the vast majority of shooters in the USA.

These men, women, and kids want nothing more than to get out on a weekend and shoot. They don't have any desire to compete on a serious level nor do they have any desire to have a 3D stool to sit on while they wait for the groups lined up in front of them, using umbrellas to shade the sun or block the wind. The sport can be boring enough without all this. Most people come to shoot, not sit. They can do that at home. And they could care less about a payday at the end of the shoot.

As a former competitor I can fully appreciate the efforts of those who compete seriously and their desire to do their best. And it obviously takes more time to do so. But for those who are not into such a mental game it gets discouraging. It seems that these are the people who have left or are still leaving the game, but who we would like to draw more participation from. Am I wrong? I mean, where else are they going to come from? Those who are die hard 3Ders are going to show up and compete. Where is the growth going to come from?

As it is formatted right now I don't see the two groups competing well on the same course. There are just too many conflicting desires between the two. I don't think either is wrong in what they want to accomplish. Just that it doesn't work in the real world of 3D shooting.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

bfisher said:


> I'm not sure if I should be posting in this thread for my thoughts diverge from what I think is the majority. In fact, I wonder just where the people are going to come from if the sport of 3D is to grow. Where from, the bowhunting ranks?
> 
> There is talk on here about sponsorships and TV coverage and higher entry fees. I'm not saying any of this is bad, but I think the sport has evolved into one of competition with paybacks, already high entry fees. I think making them higher would only scare off some that are on the edge. All I ever read on here is about IBO, ASA, NFAA and such. The rules, the payback money. This might all be well and good for serious 3D shooters, but what about those bowhunters that wish only to participate in local shoots to practice for hunting or for the joy of just getting out? It seems the more organized 3D becomes the more it leaves these folks behind, and they are the vast majority of shooters in the USA.
> 
> ...


Great post! So what CAN be done to get more BOWHUNTERS into the sport? Gotta be someone here that has the answers.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> I took your post that I was responding to as sarcastic. Were you being sarcastic? That was my presumption.


You are correct, sir....not so much joking as very sarcastic.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Look at FITA and Field in Europe, huge fan base, televised shoot offs, it can be done.





Mac of Michigan said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZIyjSRGonU
> 
> Got this link from another thread here on AT! If these guys can do it for field archery then it can be done for 3D.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

The way I see it is if Poker can become a televised sport anything can. There would need to be a dress code for TV as many mainstream viewers would get put off by having the full camo guys there reminding them of the hunting side of things. Perhaps a fly on the wall documentary following one of the top shooters would be good publicity.
Other than that, get those orrible snotty nosed kids involved and enthusiastic because despite what someone on here said, they should be encouraged at every stage.
You could also have a state or province ranking system so if you win all the time you would go up into a higher division and the lesser shooters would get a chance. A league table from local clubs could give you a season champion as well, something to keep bringing you back other than a 50c medal.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

reylamb said:


> You are correct, sir....not so much joking as very sarcastic.


I was actually glad to see your response.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> The way I see it is if Poker can become a televised sport anything can. There would need to be a dress code for TV as many mainstream viewers would get put off by having the full camo guys there reminding them of the hunting side of things. Perhaps a fly on the wall documentary following one of the top shooters would be good publicity.
> Other than that, get those orrible snotty nosed kids involved and enthusiastic because despite what someone on here said, they should be encouraged at every stage.
> You could also have a state or province ranking system so if you win all the time you would go up into a higher division and the lesser shooters would get a chance. A league table from local clubs could give you a season champion as well, something to keep bringing you back other than a 50c medal.


Great ideas!


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bfisher said:


> I'm not sure if I should be posting in this thread for my thoughts diverge from what I think is the majority. In fact, I wonder just where the people are going to come from if the sport of 3D is to grow. Where from, the bowhunting ranks?
> 
> There is talk on here about sponsorships and TV coverage and higher entry fees. I'm not saying any of this is bad, but I think the sport has evolved into one of competition with paybacks, already high entry fees. I think making them higher would only scare off some that are on the edge. All I ever read on here is about IBO, ASA, NFAA and such. The rules, the payback money. This might all be well and good for serious 3D shooters, but what about those bowhunters that wish only to participate in local shoots to practice for hunting or for the joy of just getting out? It seems the more organized 3D becomes the more it leaves these folks behind, and they are the vast majority of shooters in the USA.
> 
> ...


Excellent, Barry.


----------



## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

bfisher said:


> I'm not sure if I should be posting in this thread for my thoughts diverge from what I think is the majority. In fact, I wonder just where the people are going to come from if the sport of 3D is to grow. Where from, the bowhunting ranks?
> 
> There is talk on here about sponsorships and TV coverage and higher entry fees. I'm not saying any of this is bad, but I think the sport has evolved into one of competition with paybacks, already high entry fees. I think making them higher would only scare off some that are on the edge. All I ever read on here is about IBO, ASA, NFAA and such. The rules, the payback money. This might all be well and good for serious 3D shooters, but what about those bowhunters that wish only to participate in local shoots to practice for hunting or for the joy of just getting out? It seems the more organized 3D becomes the more it leaves these folks behind, and they are the vast majority of shooters in the USA.
> 
> ...


Great post!! Everyone wants to count the numbers and the big shoots and judge from that but it's the guys that hit the local shoots that are keeping all the local clubs open and are dang near impossible to get an overall count of. Grow the sport at a local level and the national level will take care of itself or adapt to try to get a piece of the action, so to speak.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Supermag1 said:


> Great post!! Everyone wants to count the numbers and the big shoots and judge from that but it's the guys that hit the local shoots that are keeping all the local clubs open and are dang near impossible to get an overall count of. Grow the sport at a local level and the national level will take care of itself or adapt to try to get a piece of the action, so to speak.


I believe I said this here or in the other Grow 3D thread. See my last reply. I gave it a shot at getting some number of bowhunters that shoot 3D.


----------



## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

well the last i checked this stuff was supposed to be for fun.. i think we have gotten away from what it was all started for.. i have read post after post about higher entry fees bigger payouts etc.. i can BO shoots all over the country because it was fun.. you didnt win a dime.. if you were lucky and shot very well you got a plaque lor trophy and if you were the man at the triple crown you got a belt buckle and a jacket.. i am as proud of those as if i had won a bunch of money back in the day.. i dont know a single guy that has came and shot a local 3d shoot that hasnt said they had a blast.. we have to get those guys out at the local level and that is the base we need to grow on.. if you get those guys out sooner or later you will get more of those guys to grow on the national level.. each and every one of us shot our first tournament somewhere and i know i can still remember the first one i shot in.. thats the kind of thing we need to get more guys to get out and do and the rest will take care of itself


----------



## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Say...golf! If golf can do it archery can.


Golf has 1 class and thats PRO!!! How much are their entry fees? This may have already been asked but I skipped to the back of the line without reading all posts.


----------



## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

could we compare archery to BASS tournaments? what is the entry fee these guys are paying? They are all "pros" also though I think.


----------



## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

I know one reason I dont go to many National shoots anymore and thats because they have turned into nothing more than a big local shoot rather than a sporting event. Back in the 90's when I started going to ASA shoots they had the Cabelas bus there and always had a nice stage set up with music blastin and of course a "famous" spokesperson announcing stuff. They had way fewer classes then so when you were competing against 300-400 other shooters in your class it really felt like you were shooting Nationally. Back then if you ended up in 30th place (or lower) you would still get some $$$ and that made you feel good and wantedto keep coming back. Now that we have classes for people that are short, tall, fat, skinny, long hair, short hair, bald (Im in the bald class), etc etc its just not as fun for me. Im not in it for the money but I do like to have fun and if Im gonna spend a few hundred bucks just getting to a National shoot I sure as heck want it to be like a National Event! Just my opinion.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

drtnshtr said:


> Golf has 1 class and thats PRO!!! How much are their entry fees? This may have already been asked but I skipped to the back of the line without reading all posts.


Yeah no doubt! There are just a few more golf courses throughout the world than 3D courses though. Most of those are for hacks like me!
I remember those 'old' days! Ahh cabella's! Those shoots did have a different feel to them. I remember payin' $3.00 to golf too.


----------



## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Yeah no doubt! There are just a few more golf courses throughout the world than 3D courses though. Most of those are for hacks like me!
> I remember those 'old' days! Ahh cabella's! Those shoots did have a different feel to them. I remember payin' $3.00 to golf too.


Now ASA shoots dont feel any different than an IBO shoot to me, which is just a big local shoot.


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

ttt


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

I had all this typed up earlier and lost it when I went to post!!! Grrr!:angry:

I was trying to make another point with the PBR. You are correct, attendance wise there is no comparrison. What I'm talking about isn't even rodeo, it is just the roping industry. There are NO large audiences, NO media coverage, in fact, the only audience there is are the other compeditors. YET, they still mannage to pay out MILLION's of dollars a year! They do this by getting the large sponsors on board and grew it from the amateur end and the Pros eventually reaped the rewards!

Now understand I am talking about the NATIONAL LEVEL, not the local clubs. I totally agree that raising entry fees at the local level would hurt attendance at the present time. 

If the PRO/AM's offered an outstanding payout (and not just to the top three) AND awesome prizes (not just plaques) Eventually it entices some of the local fun shooters to want to "roll the dice" so to speak! I knew guys when I was roping that ONLY competed in the small local stuff but when things started taking off and the large producers started giving away thousands of dollars and CREW CAB DIESEL TRUCKS in one weekend to AMATEURS! They couldn't resist! It was a higher entry fee but the reward out weighed the risk to them. Eventually word spread and more and more people were willing to "roll the dice" for these payouts and prizes! I've seen it a dozen times!

Take Augusta for example. I'm not in a shooter of the year race and am not going to drive halfway across the country "just to say I went" and IF I have a good day and finnish down in the top ten I wont even win enough to pay my fuel one way! On the otherhand...If I finnished say 7th - 10th and I had a chance of walking away with several thousand dollars and a buckle or other nice prize, Guess what?, I'M GOING!

If the ASA figures out how to incorpoate the same staregy that the roping industry did, Again, keep in mind I'm talking about NO large audiences (other than other compeditors) NO TV coverage!, NO media coverage! They will see huge growth from top to bottom!


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Jay-J said:


> I had all this typed up earlier and lost it when I went to post!!! Grrr!:angry:
> 
> I was trying to make another point with the PBR. You are correct, attendance wise there is no comparrison. What I'm talking about isn't even rodeo, it is just the roping industry. There are NO large audiences, NO media coverage, in fact, the only audience there is are the other compeditors. YET, they still mannage to pay out MILLION's of dollars a year! They do this by getting the large sponsors on board and grew it from the amateur end and the Pros eventually reaped the rewards!
> 
> ...


You totally right but no one wants to change everyone wants to win five bucks in one of the many classes they created so everyone's feelings won't get hurt... More sponsors less classes a unified set of rules for all 3D and then we can get away from treating these national shoots as back yard get togethers..


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Jay-J said:


> I had all this typed up earlier and lost it when I went to post!!! Grrr!:angry:
> 
> I was trying to make another point with the PBR. You are correct, attendance wise there is no comparrison. What I'm talking about isn't even rodeo, it is just the roping industry. There are NO large audiences, NO media coverage, in fact, the only audience there is are the other compeditors. YET, they still mannage to pay out MILLION's of dollars a year! They do this by getting the large sponsors on board and grew it from the amateur end and the Pros eventually reaped the rewards! Now understand I am talking about the NATIONAL LEVEL, not the local clubs. I totally agree that raising entry fees at the local level would hurt attendance at the present time.
> 
> ...


All fine and dandy, but archery doesn't have big sponsors other that what we have, archery businesses, Mathews, Hoyt, Easton, Carbon Express and so on. If archery could have had big name outside sponsors don't you think they would have? "Chance to win several thousand dollars?" In which class? No way could there be thousands to win in each paying class. You say the ASA. What of the IBO? What of the NFAA's few 3Ds? Just how much money would these big outside sponsors be willing to hand out?

Rambling;
"see huge growth from top to bottom?" You mean at the national level? I see little growth yet to be had at the local levels regardless of what happens on the national level.

Any big money threw to the local levels may cause problems as a lot of clubs are Not-For-Profit.


----------



## texasfloors (Dec 23, 2006)

I like the raising of fees theory but maybe only at the semi and pro level. Think if the entry fees were $2000 for a pro am.


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

In other words your main agenda is to GROW 3D at the national level. Then why didn't you say so? Here I thought there was some serious concern about growing 3D in general, and continued growth of the archery industry. Guess I was wrong----as usual.


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

bfisher said:


> In other words your main agenda is to GROW 3D at the national level. Then why didn't you say so? Here I thought there was some serious concern about growing 3D in general, and continued growth of the archery industry. Guess I was wrong----as usual.


It WILL grow at the local level in time! Re read my above post....


----------



## hunter terrior (May 15, 2008)

I think the system is set up pretty good as far as classes and rules. Can't make everyone happy, your either going to shoot or your not. Changing rules or making certain equipment illegal won't make more people come to the shoots. It needs to be competitive and fun.


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> All fine and dandy, but archery doesn't have big sponsors other that what we have, archery businesses, Mathews, Hoyt, Easton, Carbon Express and so on. If archery could have had big name outside sponsors don't you think they would have? * "Chance to win several thousand dollars?" In which class? No way could there be thousands to win in each paying class.* You say the ASA. What of the IBO? What of the NFAA's few 3Ds? Just how much money would these big outside sponsors be willing to hand out?
> 
> Rambling;
> "see huge growth from top to bottom?" You mean at the national level? I see little growth yet to be had at the local levels regardless of what happens on the national level.
> ...


Ya wanna bet!.... At the USTRC events the Amateur's make WAY more than the PRO's! The reason is there are WAY more Amateur's than pro's!... The reason the amateur ranks grew is because mindsets changed, Payout's grew, They give away awesome prizes! and it started drawing in the local backyard guys! These guys got their friends, famillies and kids interested and it grew from the big events to the local ones. At one time Team roping was listed as one on the fastest growing sports in America!!! This is because several people were visionaries. They got tired of the "same 'ol same 'ol" and tired of people saying, "That's just the way it is and has always been so just accept it!" 3D archery needs people like this if it is going to grow!


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

hunter terrior said:


> I think the system is set up *pretty good* as far as classes and rules. Can't make everyone happy, your either going to shoot or your not. Changing rules or making certain equipment illegal won't make more people come to the shoots. It needs to be competitive and fun.


Yes, but we are not looking for "pretty good" we are looking to take it to the next level!


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

bfisher said:


> In other words your main agenda is to GROW 3D at the national level. Then why didn't you say so? Here I thought there was some serious concern about growing 3D in general, and continued growth of the archery industry. Guess I was wrong----as usual.


No bfisher you are not wrong! I for one am serious about growing 3D in general, including the industry that supports the sport! I won't 'pigeon hole' my thinking with outdated tired old perspectives. We have a new approach that we are refining that started with 7 shooters 6 years ago. It is focused on bowhunters and not overcomplicated. We have limited costs to the archers and kept travel to a minimum. We have had steady growth which included the largest 3D tournament in the state a few years back. More than 70% of the shooters were first time archery tournament shooters. 95% were bowhunters only. We had well over 200 shooters in that tournament. We project 75 to 125 league shooters this year. We don't do it the way the folks on this thread propose. We actively promote participation in the other organizations. Best of all we are raising money for cancer research. Everyone on our committee has lost someone they were close to from cancer. 
I won't buy into the negative thinking either. I am a firm believer in the power of positive thinking! The astronomical growth of archery is yet to be experienced. Someone on this forum, another one, or elsewhere has the answers. Or perhaps the collective intelligence here may be the ticket! I'm not giving up just 'cause someone challenges me. It's kinda like lifting weights, add a little more resistance get a little stronger. It's a numbers game like everything else. Get more hunters into this and you get more ideas.
For all you others why have we not been promoting crossbow participation? Most states have recently legalized them. We sold 40 times more crossbows at Gander Mountain than regular bows. And I mean gone after getting them to try 3D. You think a free certificate to an IBO or ASA or NFAA shoot might get these guys to try it? Why not include one in every crossbow sale - or bow sale for that matter? People want to grow the sport then do it.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Jay-J said:


> Ya wanna bet!.... At the USTRC events the Amateur's make WAY more than the PRO's! The reason is there are WAY more Amateur's than pro's!... The reason the amateur ranks grew is because mindsets changed, Payout's grew, They give away awesome prizes! and it started drawing in the local backyard guys! These guys got their friends, famillies and kids interested and it grew from the big events to the local ones. At one time Team roping was listed as one on the fastest growing sports in America!!! This is because several people were visionaries. They got tired of the "same 'ol same 'ol" and tired of people saying, "That's just the way it is and has always been so just accept it!" 3D archery needs people like this if it is going to grow!


You're damn right!


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> *All fine and dandy, but archery doesn't have big sponsors other that what we have, archery businesses, Mathews, Hoyt, Easton, Carbon Express and so on. If archery could have had big name outside sponsors don't you think they would have?* "Chance to win several thousand dollars?" In which class? No way could there be thousands to win in each paying class. You say the ASA. What of the IBO? What of the NFAA's few 3Ds? Just how much money would these big outside sponsors be willing to hand out?
> 
> Rambling;
> "see huge growth from top to bottom?" You mean at the national level? I see little growth yet to be had at the local levels regardless of what happens on the national level.
> ...


You are correct. At first there are only so many industry related sponsors who will put up money. These higher payout's start by having higher entry fee's and the producer does not need to be greedy and put as much as they can back into the pot for payouts as he can. As it grows and more and more people get involved it creates opportunities to bring other sponsors onboard! Which equals more money for event producer profits AND more money added to payout's, better/more prizes, and it just snowball's..... Several years back Cub Caddet got onboard as a major sponsor of roping! They primarially produce lawn mowers!...what does that have to do with roping?!....NOTHING! They just see a growing and popular sport and want to sponsor in hopes that the partispants will in turn reward them by using/buying their product! (pretty much the way all major sponsorships work)


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Mac of Michigan said:


> You're damn right!


Thank you! I'm glad someone see's where I'm going with this.:thumbs_up


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Jay-J said:


> Thank you! I'm glad someone see's where I'm going with this.:thumbs_up


I just emailed Darton and Martin and suggested they get with the NFAA, ASA, and IBO and work out an agreement to include a free pass to the buyer of each new crossbow or bow to a tournament. I also called the ATA office and Mathews as I couldn't find easy access emails for them. They need to be trying this stuff until they get a system in place that works. For the number of compound bows sold in the last 10 years there is no excuse to have such low numbers at the events.


----------



## marksman269 (Mar 30, 2011)

All five of my kids shoot ASA, (6 to 16), the wife and I also,....you raise the prices and we'll find another hobby. Mabey calf roping. I'm already tapped out with all the equiptment and entry fees every weekend. I know more parents that compete that don't bring their kids than do. The youth are the future of this sport,...Don't raise the entry fees,...Make kids free, you'll see more come.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

marksman269 said:


> All five of my kids shoot ASA, (6 to 16), the wife and I also,....you raise the prices and we'll find another hobby. Mabey calf roping. I'm already tapped out with all the equiptment and entry fees every weekend. I know more parents that compete that don't bring their kids than do. The youth are the future of this sport,...Don't raise the entry fees,...Make kids free, you'll see more come.


I agree with this. I also would encourage you to have your kids invite their friends to come along with you. Bring the kids and eventually the parents will follow.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

hunter terrior said:


> I think the system is set up pretty good as far as classes and rules. Can't make everyone happy, your either going to shoot or your not. Changing rules or making certain equipment illegal won't make more people come to the shoots. It needs to be competitive and fun.


Have to agree with you. 

Our club does darn well with the way things are. Drawing on average of 140 or so shooters per event. We have pulled 200 shooters for just one event more than a couple of times, 8 to be exact.
If from 151 to 200 plus, then 21 times.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bfisher said:


> In other words your main agenda is to GROW 3D at the national level. Then why didn't you say so? Here I thought there was some serious concern about growing 3D in general, and continued growth of the archery industry. Guess I was wrong----as usual.


Barry, I don't believe there is a starting point so all can get aboard.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What needs to be done is for the local 3D clubs to promote archery so they can survive and grow. We can't help them except through giving advice and information. Remember, a club can only do what it's Officers and members are capable of. They have to want to go the extra distance. 
Some clubs are well off. Some clubs are so-so for being well off. Some clubs are not well off. One 3D club in our area just folded for this year.
Numbers grow at the local 3D clubs mean numbers grow at the national level.
Big outside money - we don't have it.
Where is the plan? Stick it out by it's self, no other discussion. Don't give rodeo, golf or bass fishing examples.

I work at a small archery shop - archery shop only. I manage the indoor shooting.
We have a 16 lane practice area. 15 3D targets are on the floor. The range is open for use for any school or can be available to any club as their indoor range (You have know the ASA - Thank you, ASA). Reduced club rates, See ASA. Kid rates are less. Special rates for those who shoot competitively -sanctioned and national level. League shooting is available, whether NFAA target, ASA DAIR target or 3D. Chronograph on hand. Paper tune stand on hand. Instruction for those new to archery - free. Door open beyond normal hour for club or group shooting purposes.
All ASA Qualifiers and State Championships results posted on walls. All ASA state and local 3D schedules posted on walls. Benefits posted on wall.
If I can't help with a problem I know others that may. 
Emergency phone numbers in front window....

I have and still do help other clubs other than the two I am a member of. Mainly, I support the ASA for the clubs. Will help any club putting on a ASA state event within descent driving range, hour or so. 
On-hand; a example of archery club Consitution and By-Laws, Guide Book, collective information suggestions for the club and for future Officers of a club to have guidance and suggest sheet for setting distances for targets.

Is there something else I can do?


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Mac of Michigan said:


> I just emailed Darton and Martin and suggested they get with the NFAA, ASA, and IBO and work out an agreement to include a free pass to the buyer of each new crossbow or bow to a tournament. I also called the ATA office and Mathews as I couldn't find easy access emails for them. They need to be trying this stuff until they get a system in place that works. For the number of compound bows sold in the last 10 years there is no excuse to have such low numbers at the events.


I just got an email from Martin. They are going to discuss my suggestion. Here is the email:

"Hi Mac, 

I can't say that we've ever entertained the idea but I like the concept...I
will pass this on to the decision makers! Thanks for the tip!

-----Original Message-----
From: Mac Workz [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Martin Archery Customer Service

email: [email protected]

realname: Mac Workz

phone_customer: 

subject_customer: free pass to shoots

message_customer: Hi Folks! have you ever approached any of the shooting
organizations to work a deal out where your customer gets a free
pass/certificate to shoot a tournament? Just wondering and thought I'd pass
this on. Mac"

It took all of 30 seconds. I planted a seed of thought. Who knows where it may lead.


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> What needs to be done is for the local 3D clubs to promote archery so they can survive and grow. We can't help them except through giving advice and information. Remember, a club can only do what it's Officers and members are capable of. They have to want to go the extra distance.
> Some clubs are well off. Some clubs are so-so for being well off. Some clubs are not well off. One 3D club in our area just folded for this year.
> Numbers grow at the local 3D clubs mean numbers grow at the national level.
> *Big outside money - we don't have it.
> ...


I have already stated that I do not have an EXACT blueprint!... Just an examle of what *has worked* in other venues!


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> What needs to be done is for the local 3D clubs to promote archery so they can survive and grow. We can't help them except through giving advice and information. Remember, a club can only do what it's Officers and members are capable of. They have to want to go the extra distance.
> Some clubs are well off. Some clubs are so-so for being well off. Some clubs are not well off. One 3D club in our area just folded for this year.
> Numbers grow at the local 3D clubs mean numbers grow at the national level.
> Big outside money - we don't have it.
> ...




Yes, There is!.... You can qiut spewing your, Negative, Nay-saying, Pesimistic, Non constructive garbage on a thread that is about thinking outside the box and growing 3D archery!!!!


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> What needs to be done is for the local 3D clubs to promote archery so they can survive and grow. We can't help them except through giving advice and information. Remember, a club can only do what it's Officers and members are capable of. They have to want to go the extra distance.
> Some clubs are well off. Some clubs are so-so for being well off. Some clubs are not well off. One 3D club in our area just folded for this year.
> Numbers grow at the local 3D clubs mean numbers grow at the national level.
> Big outside money - we don't have it.
> ...


You have NOTHING positive or constructive to contribute to this thread (or any other thread you've posted on that I've seen) so PLEASE QUIT POSTING ON IT!!! Thank you.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

I do have a plan. It is already being implemented - and not just by me! When we get all of the changes made, the documents tweeked, and the rest of our structure completed I'll post it in the Michigan state forum. I'll also post results as they get compiled. We have a 3 man commitee that oversee's it for 2 years (subject to change). We have 3 people set to take over at the end of the 2 years. They will run it for a year then 3 more will replace them. And so on. FYI our system for getting and keeping administration is based loosely on the DeColores Ministries method. Here is a link to their website: 
http://www.decoloresgr.org/
A lot can be learned from other organizations. :thumbs_up
BTW I'm not tryin' to 'pitch' DeColores on anyone. I have been involved a long time with them and their volunteer administration has been very successful for a long time.
Anyone interested in checkin' us out please feel free to contact me. You get here to shoot it from out of state - at your expense - I'll cover your shooting fees while you are here. We shoot mid week and treat it very much like an indoor winter spot league.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mac of Michigan said:


> So then the question becomes "How do I create the desire 'to be better', in someone else?".


For those that can be "reached," encouragement. 



Mac of Michigan said:


> Gotta keep asking the question:"How do you create the demand in the non-participants' mind?" Keep ask





Mac of Michigan said:


> Great post! So what CAN be done to get more BOWHUNTERS into the sport? Gotta be someone here that has the answers.


More bowhunters shoot 3D than most want to believe. Like two or three others and I noted a lot of people shoot only for the fun of it, buddies and family member thing. Again, most archers already know their ability and won't compete at the higher level.

Problem; The average bowhunter is probably every bit as good as the person that competes in higher level events, but just doesn't realize it. Our club once put on a State sanctioned 3D Championship. Some of our regular shooters wouldn't shoot, but those that did, just awesome. 13 of our club members took medals in a total of 25 classes and flights. 



Jay-J said:


> You have NOTHING positive or constructive to contribute to this thread (or any other thread you've posted on that I've seen) so PLEASE QUIT POSTING ON IT!!! Thank you.


Maybe you should look at what is in my called negatives. Some information is there, if nothing else to think about when constructing your wanted vision. 

Answer this; Do you think the big archery organizations haven't looked at growing archery?

Other;
NASP has been going and promoted throughout the nation - Great. 
After School Archery Program is underway - Great.
Another archery organization has tried to take off the ground, THE. Not all that heard, but here in this forum somewhere.
Some Pros tried to start a new target game. Not heard of for quite some time.
I believe a couple of 3D organizations have NASP rules set - For the leap if it comes.
ASA started a new indoor target game, Dair, a first for team envolvement - Seeming not pushed all that much now.

Gander Mountain? How many stores have a full time indoor range? Ours, Peoria, doesn't even have a test range that I know of. If fact, ours doesn't even have a full time archery person on duty. Part time last I knew.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> For those that can be "reached," encouragement.
> 
> The difference between what you state and imply and me is that I believe a lot more people "can be reached" than you do.
> 
> ...


You ever work at a Gander Mountain? Been to one of their national events? Met over 200 of their techs? You been to a lot of their stores across the country? Ever worked with techs at different venues from GM? Well I have. And I know a bunch of those guys that flat out are way better professionals than the GM organization is. GM is a huge 'profit focused' company. They don't, as an organization, care about archery because they don't see it as profitable. The techs I know are archery guys and a lot of them are exceptional techs. We had a tiny 2 lane 11 yard range in the store I worked in. But we got the job done. GM is sort of like the 'Mash' of archery most of the time. And with crossbows so popular most of the really good local techs are being laid off because GM has gun guys doing archery. I don't work for them any more 'cause they would not do anything to help grow the sport of 3D - or archery in general. Their administration really doesn't care about archery - only profits.

Yeah I know I said I wasn't going to respond to you - but ... you 'opened the door'! Please stay on topic and please post positive stuff - OK? I do believe you have the potential to be helpful if you stop all the negative stuff & stay on topic.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You can reach some people, but run up against those who don't want change to improve. 5 foot 6 inch tall person has 30" draw. Tell him he doesn't and he just might get mad at you. Kid is turning his forearm into hamburger. Try to correct his grip and he says" My dad says I'm doing it right." Trying forcing the issue to help them you will drive them away.

I tried to give numbers, if nothing else to have some one chime it with other numbers or how to go about getting some approx. number. No takers. I'm guessing approx. 750,000 bowhunters shoot 3D - some participating throughout the 3D season, some checking the tune on their new set up or bow and some just to tune up before hunting season.
I said it and some one else said it; Some one is supporting the vast number of 3D archery clubs. I noted the number of just ASA clubs for Illinois and Texas, 53. How many NFAA and IBO clubs for these two states? How many more clubs for the remaining states? 

13 club members and 11 of them just down home country boys and girls earning medals and 3 champions in the midst - "See, you are as good as those who shoot high level events." Even though they proved they could, none really pursued another sanctioned event. Home ground advantage? For the first time our range was set to standards far different than ever before - we had sanctioned rules to go by.

A couple of my negatives; I noted state champions are not high-lighted or given a high position of status. Shouldn't they be? I noted clubs don't put on instruction classes to help those who want to improve - not to any degree that I have seen. This instruction doesn't have be given by some all so great coach, just some club member who is knowledgeable.

Do I shoot competitively? I already said I did and you chose to ignore it.

Gander Mountain; I noted what ours doesn't have. IE, ours doesn't deal with archers on a day to day basis or the problems that come with it.

Negative that I may be, I really do hope some idea or restructuring comes along that helps bring in more people and promotes archery to a higher status.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> "...Do I shoot competitively? I already said I did and you chose to ignore it...."


I didn't ask if you competed. And I didn't ignore anything. Did you even read what I wrote? Did you comprehend it?


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Nothing will get solved by a war of words here so back on thread everyone.
I suggest taking archery out to the public by ways like archery booths at fall fairs, town summer gatherings or anything similar you have. Get the scouts to try it, offer free coaching sessions to kids, holding "try archery" days at clubs. All these kinds of things help and now is a good time, you can piggy back on the Hunger Games, the Avengers film that comes out in May and the new Disney cartoon Brave that's due out soon. All these have heavy archery influence in them so kids are being exposed already. The more people picking up bows the more there will be to compete if steered the right way.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Nothing will get solved by a war of words here so back on thread everyone.
> I suggest taking archery out to the public by ways like archery booths at fall fairs, town summer gatherings or anything similar you have. Get the scouts to try it, offer free coaching sessions to kids, holding "try archery" days at clubs. All these kinds of things help and now is a good time, you can piggy back on the Hunger Games, the Avengers film that comes out in May and the new Disney cartoon Brave that's due out soon. All these have heavy archery influence in them so kids are being exposed already. The more people picking up bows the more there will be to compete if steered the right way.


Great post!


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bigjono said:


> Nothing will get solved by a war of words here so back on thread everyone.
> I suggest taking archery out to the public by ways like archery booths at fall fairs, town summer gatherings or anything similar you have. Get the scouts to try it, offer free coaching sessions to kids, holding "try archery" days at clubs. All these kinds of things help and now is a good time, you can piggy back on the Hunger Games, the Avengers film that comes out in May and the new Disney cartoon Brave that's due out soon. All these have heavy archery influence in them so kids are being exposed already. The more people picking up bows the more there will be to compete if steered the right way.


Great one! Something to put archery out to the public.

In a work together project our club with 3 other clubs are having a St Judes benefit shoot - 4 shoots total.
Our club has also hosted (free) the Illinois High School FFA 3D Championship 3 times and probably this year also. We had some 16 schools represented. My hope is that the schools will open the 3D championship school wide, not just FFA Students. Give the Local FFA Instructor a big Congrats for going the extra distance.


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

The target manufacturers could play a part as well, they have a lot to gain after all.
How many kids and their parents wouldn't have the time of their lives shooting at Aliens and Dinosaurs like at the Rinehart 100. Novelty targets and a fun only event tagged on to the Rinehart would be good I think.
I also like the idea of a group of clubs within a couple of hours of each other running a 3D league with levels from Novice to expert. It might encourage people in if they know they will only be shooting locally and against their own standard. It would involve co operation between clubs but if it brings people in then it should benefit everyone.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bigjono said:


> The target manufacturers could play a part as well, they have a lot to gain after all.
> How many kids and their parents wouldn't have the time of their lives shooting at Aliens and Dinosaurs like at the Rinehart 100. Novelty targets and a fun only event tagged on to the Rinehart would be good I think.
> I also like the idea of a group of clubs within a couple of hours of each other running a 3D league with levels from Novice to expert. It might encourage people in if they know they will only be shooting locally and against their own standard. It would involve co operation between clubs but if it brings people in then it should benefit everyone.


See your point, but the big 3D targets are in limited number. Pretty easy to find out though. Rinehart is pretty easy to contact through their site or phone. And Rinehart does have a 3D target benefit program. Have to read on their site. 

I did speak with one of our Directors about our club supporting other clubs. Perhaps at the next meeting this can be explored. Now, some years back a group of us started shooting regularly at other clubs. We went in mass, not scattered out. It made a impression. Soon we had those other clubs attending our events in bigger numbers.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Noted a Post in General Discussion about Pro Class for the Bowhunters. This has been kicked around for a long time and it seems the archery associations steer away from it. Well, not just seems. When I asked I was point blank told; "They want only one Champion." So the Open Pro is what we have.

Maybe some pressure needs asserted or some restructuring needs implemented. For sure there are more fixed pin shooters than Free Style shooters.

Another thing, look at the classes in the NFAA. Our young people don't have fixed pin class. They can compete, but have to compete in the Kid's FreeStyle class. In other words, the NFAA is pushing FreeStyle from the bottom up. Two or three backs a father pulled his kids from a Outdoor because they were required to shoot against FreeStyle kids. Hard to see archery improving or growing here.


----------



## THRILLOFTHEHUNT (Sep 27, 2010)

Jay-j,
you may well be right, if you're dealing with a gambler's mentality.
I showed NCHA (cutting horses), without a doubt a gambler's game.
if the judge didn't screw you, the cattle would. 
I believe bowhunters/archers are more
intuitive and smarter about their $$. They work harder for the $, and value it more, at least IMHO.
It would be great to have an opportunity to win big $$ in archery, but economic conditions with what they currently are,
may not favor the "risk" approach right now.
I could be wrong.


----------



## Bowman991 (Jun 15, 2006)

You want more archers at 3D events....get more people into archery!!!
I'm starting a Girl Scouts day and a Boy Scouts day at our club...We have had a traveling Youth Program for 5 years and it Keeps us running like crazy....We are now trying to bring people to our club...Kids, parents, whole families. I ahve the local Girl Scout and Boy Scout directors involved...We setup a schedule to bring a troop in for an hour to learn archery....May 5th will have close to a 100 girl scouts coming to learn archery.....May 12th Boy scouts...

Talk is Cheap....Promote archery whenever you can.....We went after the bowhunters and doubled our first shoot attendance


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Bowman991 said:


> You want more archers at 3D events....get more people into archery!!!
> I'm starting a Girl Scouts day and a Boy Scouts day at our club...We have had a traveling Youth Program for 5 years and it Keeps us running like crazy....We are now trying to bring people to our club...Kids, parents, whole families. I ahve the local Girl Scout and Boy Scout directors involved...We setup a schedule to bring a troop in for an hour to learn archery....May 5th will have close to a 100 girl scouts coming to learn archery.....May 12th Boy scouts...
> 
> Talk is Cheap....Promote archery whenever you can.....We went after the bowhunters and doubled our first shoot attendance


Keep up the great work!


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

We just sent our first email out to over 700 bowhunters for our weeknight travelling 3d league.


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

THRILLOFTHEHUNT said:


> Jay-j,
> you may well be right, if you're dealing with a gambler's mentality.
> I showed NCHA (cutting horses), without a doubt a gambler's game.
> if the judge didn't screw you, the cattle would.
> ...


Nice to have another hand here that knows what I'm talking about! However... Cutting is a rich mans game! I'm not talking about taking it to the taking the cost's that high!...thanks would not promote growth. The USTRC is the prime example.


----------



## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

I have been trying to get my school to do archery in the schools. This is not working so I created an after school program called the Outdoor Club. Once a month I take the kids to a local Archery Club, Presque Isle Field Archers, and they taught them to shoot inside. Now some of the kids have purchased bows and are looking to attend weekly club shoots for kids and the once a month 3-D shoots. Just hoping to do my small little part.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Kighty7 said:


> I have been trying to get my school to do archery in the schools. This is not working so I created an after school program called the Outdoor Club. Once a month I take the kids to a local Archery Club, Presque Isle Field Archers, and they taught them to shoot inside. Now some of the kids have purchased bows and are looking to attend weekly club shoots for kids and the once a month 3-D shoots. Just hoping to do my small little part.


Good job! More folks need to do what you are doing.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Mac of Michigan said:


> For all you others why have we not been promoting crossbow participation? Most states have recently legalized them. We sold 40 times more crossbows at Gander Mountain than regular bows. And I mean gone after getting them to try 3D. You think a free certificate to an IBO or ASA or NFAA shoot might get these guys to try it? Why not include one in every crossbow sale - or bow sale for that matter? People want to grow the sport then do it.


Dude...that's almost blasphemy…just kidding… :darkbeer:

I’m not one of the “traditional purist snobs” but it’s taken me a while to get used to the idea of the crossbows being here to stay in Michigan’s archery landscape. I know several folks that have a BIG problem with participating with them or even allowing them in their clubs. But I’m by it now and just want to be a better person... My name is Jerry…:wink:

The idea of the state level ASA or IBO providing a stack of “free shoot” coupons to sport shops to go along with any new bow (stick, wheelie or cross) could be a good idea. I could also see local clubs handing out similar coupons to club shoots. Perhaps put these folks in a “novice” class that has randomly drawn door prizes instead of score driven awards.

I have also expressed on similar threads that reaching the casual bowhunters is where the largest potential could be. I’m talking about the shooters that only have 4 arrows and a 15 year old compound that they dust off 6 weeks before the season. These folks often get a deer or two per year, yet get very intimidated shooting with other that have BT releases, 4’ stabilizers and optical scopes. Many are not interest in joining formal or informal leagues due to other commitments and will only shoot 3Ds for hunting practice once every 3rd year. I think you need to offer fun and non competitive door prizes to attract them. I don’t have the silver bullet solution for these folks but making it real easy for them may help ultimately recruit them.

my 2 cents worth...


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> Dude...that's almost blasphemy…just kidding… :darkbeer:
> 
> I’m not one of the “traditional purist snobs” but it’s taken me a while to get used to the idea of the crossbows being here to stay in Michigan’s archery landscape. I know several folks that have a BIG problem with participating with them or even allowing them in their clubs. But I’m by it now and just want to be a better person... My name is Jerry…:wink:
> 
> ...


Jerry? Hmmm...might you be the very first to have signed up for...the...West Michigan 2 Man 3D League???? :wink:

I know what ya mean about crossbows. But...they are here to stay. Might as well embrace them. There are those who still don't like compounds! "Training wheel bows", etc.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Jerry? Hmmm...might you be the very first to have signed up for...the...West Michigan 2 Man 3D League???? :wink:


Yep...that's me and my twisted sense of humor

Earlier posts stated trying to get children interested as a growth idea. Logic says this is the obvious place to put effort. However as a dad or 2 teenage girls I can see where every other activity is also deliberately targeting the kids early for recruitment. Recently I talked to a middle school band teacher who bemoaned the fact that getting kids into band is very tough due to competition from the endless variety of “camps” and sports that try to make young children specialize at early ages. As an example my youngest daughter (15 years old) hunts with me and she only goes with me a handful of times a year due to participating in cross country. Most of her evenings and weekends are occupied during the fall. 

Although I would never discourage children from participating, my thoughts are to focus on attracting the adults (especially woman) and hopefully the kids will come along as a family activity. 

But here again I’ve tried for years (29 to be exact) to talk my wife into shooting with me but she has absolutely no interest. Maybe I should just make her go along a couple times to see if I can get her to reconsider. Maybe “date night” could start out at the 3D range before taking her to her choice of restaurant and/or movie.

Just babbling out random ideas…sorry I digressed...:tongue:


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> Yep...that's me and my twisted sense of humor
> 
> Earlier posts stated trying to get children interested as a growth idea. Logic says this is the obvious place to put effort. However as a dad or 2 teenage girls I can see where every other activity is also deliberately targeting the kids early for recruitment. Recently I talked to a middle school band teacher who bemoaned the fact that getting kids into band is very tough due to competition from the endless variety of “camps” and sports that try to make young children specialize at early ages. As an example my youngest daughter (15 years old) hunts with me and she only goes with me a handful of times a year due to participating in cross country. Most of her evenings and weekends are occupied during the fall.
> 
> ...


Naah this is exactly what people need to be talking about! There is no one answer. Shupach's Archery in Jackson Michigan used to have a 'couples' league. It was huge! They had everyone bring a potluck dinner and then shot. That was for indoor - but what a great idea!


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

This is another good example of why I spend time here! This is one of the best answers to this thread's question. Check this thread out: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1738734.
Good Job JT!!!!


----------



## psesupra24 (Apr 24, 2012)

I agree IBO class winners need to bring in a little more than just 50 bucks and maybe it would be worth driving across states to enter!


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I promise this will be the last spewing of caffeine induced ideas tonight (it’s been a long week)…

In the 3 years that I’ve been serious about recurve shooting I been really impressed by the “rendezvous” type gathering that the Traditional folks are able to put on. The Compton example in SW Michigan during June is a good example (along with the weekend long Kalamazoo winter Traditional show). They are able to get several hundred participants to camp, 3D shoot (without scores?) and share campfires for an entire weekend. The state level IBO tournaments I’ve attended have never been anywhere near this large. If a large state wide general archery gathering could be put together that had separate competitive 3D and non competitive 3D ranges that could help to elevate archery in general and take 3D along with it. Add some instructional focus for the kids and novices and potentially grow our ranks.

Maybe something like this exists and I do not know about it...good night all…


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

How about advertising ! The ASA is in Augusta this weekend and all they have posted is 2 dollar yard sale signs that point in the general direction of the shoot! How about some better signs maybe news coverage or newspaper coverage. I have seen better warm up areas at local shoots than the one set up at the shoot! There are trees in the way on the range!!


----------



## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

cenochs said:


> How about advertising ! The ASA is in Augusta this weekend and all they have posted is 2 dollar yard sale signs that point in the general direction of the shoot! How about some better signs maybe news coverage or newspaper coverage. I have seen better warm up areas at local shoots than the one set up at the shoot! There are trees in the way on the range!!


Yep! I agree....


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

cenochs said:


> How about advertising ! The ASA is in Augusta this weekend and all they have posted is 2 dollar yard sale signs that point in the general direction of the shoot! How about some better signs maybe news coverage or newspaper coverage. I have seen better warm up areas at local shoots than the one set up at the shoot! There are trees in the way on the range!!


Got to agree coverage and advertising for ASA events is non exsistant at most shoots.
DB


----------



## JCYoung (Jul 25, 2011)

Here's a start... 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1749831

I came across this in the general archery forum and thought it was fitting in this thread. Who says one person can't make a difference?


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

JCYoung said:


> Here's a start...
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1749831
> 
> I came across this in the general archery forum and thought it was fitting in this thread. Who says one person can't make a difference?


Another great idea!


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You know, a list of suggestions or ways to turn around things should be compiled so readers here can look over and add to.

The bow give away has been done by several clubs over the past few years in just our area alone. One Illinois Archery Association club as the center hub, all by itself, has generated a half dozen new Genisis bows and half dozen arrows per bow for the last 4 or 5 years.

Basically, the IAA club sends out letters to other clubs and the above result comes out of it.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Did you guys see this shot from Tiger Woods? The coverage the media gives it is what makes this golf shot significant. This approach is what archery needs to do. Like I've said before if golf can become a high dollar spectator sport then so can 3d archery! Go Tiger!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyKu9mcHP3w


----------

