# Recurve, shooting with tiller max out!



## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Tiller is how much difference there is between upper and lower limb.
It seems you are confusing tiller with how far the limb bolts are turned in (weight adjustment)


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

jeang2000, be very careful of moving the tiller bolts without knowing exactly what your doing for safety's sake. ("they were setted quite some distance out") > Why didn't you ask here before attempting it?


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

jeang2000 said:


> Hi. Been shooting for a whole now.
> 
> Previous bow is hoyt horizon 30# as beginner i didnt get to change the tiller setting from the shop. Them upgraded to new limbs with 38 pound so i started to play around with tiller and max them out both top and bottom limb by make the possitive 3/8in. The shooting isnt that consostant.
> 
> ...


I am shooting with my limb bolts turned all the way in because my arrows are too stiff for my bow and I need this setting for a good tune. With my previous lighter arrows I had the limb bolts set all the way out because I prefer a lower draw weight.

The position of the limb bolts depends on where you want to set the brace height, the draw weight you prefer, the stiffness of your arrows.

When you adjust your limb bolts, be very careful that the limbs don't bind in the riser and especially make sure that at the lowest (lightest draw weight) setting at least 3 or preferably 4 full turns of limb bolt thread are engaged in the riser. Your bow manual probably tells you how many turns from maximum you can back off on the weight -- be careful.

Why don't you just back off the tiller / limb bolts to where you groups were good and shoot there? No one judges an archer by how far their arrows penetrate the bale


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Yes it is perfectly acceptable to adjust your limbs in or out per your personal preference. The above tips are all good. Read up your manual so you understand the safe settings and any locking mechanism that would be available for your particular bow.

As you tighten the limbs the amount that they flex changes. The amount of flex at rest can affect how the string impacts the limbs. That impact is probably the noise you are hearing. You can add or subtract twists to the string to affect that "Slap noise" but keep in mind adjusting the length of the string will also changer your brace height.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you for all good tips.

As i was setting my poundage at max,In was trying to look for a similar curving of the limb at rest, i could not find anyone who have the limb curving as much as me (when at rest). Brace height and everything are at the correct position, so i think it could be the poundage adjustment.

So as the factory setting that they are default at some turns out from Max. Does this mean at Neutral position of the poundage adjustment will be starting poundage as the limb stated? I.e. Limb 38# insert to a neutral position poundage adjustment (half wayin-out) so the poundage should be 38# or should be less (i.e. Dropped to 36#) because they are not all the way in. Or should i measure them on thepulling scale... 

Haha just curious, as i want to shoot longer distance so that why i max the poundage out. But now i will start tuning for the smoothest drow and grouping now.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

BH is best adjusted by shooting and adjusting to it's quietest height.

If you have access to a pull scale, that is the best method to measure DW at your DL.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Btw, I believe most manufacture's recommend a maximum of 6 turns backed out when starting from the bottomed out position. Feel free to add in any comments.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks,
Yesterday i started off With the original setting out of the box.

Didnt know whether they are at neutral or not but when i shot at the same distance50 meters where i previously shoot with my old riser, the arrow fall way under the target so i suspect that it is the Tiller poundage adjustment on this new riser isnt set tothe same level as my old one so i slowly increase the poundage and got some result until i reached maxed out. 

Along the way i found the nice sweet sound "seishhhh" but got passed that to try maxed out. When i try maxed out setting the arrow speed improved, drawweight heavier but the sound is pretty bad. So i would like to know if there is anyone who shoot maxed out. 

Thanks for all comments


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Tiller is the difference between the string height measurement at the limb pockets (top and bottom limb) 

The *LIMB Bolts* being turned all the way in or out that you keep referring to are NOT tiller adjustments. When you turn one limb bolt a different amount than the other, you will affect tiller.

As far as switching risers, The geometry and construction of two different MFG and models can affect the poundage of a given set of limbs as you have found out. 

Brace height should be adjusted to find that "sweet spot" not poundage however it's possible you pass through the sweet spot as you change poundage.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks~~~ 

I read something the internet about tiller. It willalso effect a consistency of the arrow flight also right. Are there any artical explaijing how to properly tune your recurve to suit your form and shooting style?

Hahah really need that


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

jeang2000 said:


> Thanks,
> Yesterday i started off With the original setting out of the box.
> 
> Didnt know whether they are at neutral or not but when i shot at the same distance50 meters where i previously shoot with my old riser, the arrow fall way under the target so i suspect that it is the Tiller poundage adjustment on this new riser isnt set tothe same level as my old one so i slowly increase the poundage and got some result until i reached maxed out.


The thing about different risers is that the sight settings are going to be different. You cannot mount the same sight on two different risers and expect to get the same group.

Limb bolts settings are mainly for poundage adjustments to match your spine.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

jeang2000 said:


> Thanks~~~
> 
> I read something the internet about tiller. It willalso effect a consistency of the arrow flight also right. Are there any artical explaijing how to properly tune your recurve to suit your form and shooting style?
> 
> Hahah really need that


Here are some suggestions:

www.texasarchery.org/BoardMembers/RickStonebrakerPages/TuningForTens/TuningForTens.pdf

http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/tuning-guide

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_9UK_LXEdQ8bmNzTjRKUHJTazJ2M3FQbUsxOXdFdw/view?pli=1


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks


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## larry tom (Aug 16, 2012)

theminoritydude said:


> The thing about different risers is that the sight settings are going to be different. You cannot mount the same sight on two different risers and expect to get the same group.
> 
> Limb bolts settings are mainly for poundage adjustments to match your spine.


jeang. What TMD says is quite right, as are the other posters. Did you try adjusting your sight settings for the distances that you target. Regards, LT


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

larry tom said:


> jeang. What TMD says is quite right, as are the other posters. Did you try adjusting your sight settings for the distances that you target. Regards, LT


I did. Comparing to my previous riser, it felt weaker. So I increase the poundage so it felt better now. 

The string is still slapping the limb so I'm trying to loosen the bolt to relax the riser a little so the end loop serving can lie flat with the limb.
My previous riser also causing the slap. so the sound after the shot was a little bit twanging~


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

jeang you need to list exactly every piece of equipment you have, better maybe take a photo of your complete setup with the specs. It's so hard to try and picture what your trying to describe in words. Did you read and understand the tuning guides suggested to you? When you say "string slap" what are you taking about?


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

c365 said:


> jeang you need to list exactly every piece of equipment you have, better maybe take a photo of your complete setup with the specs. It's so hard to try and picture what your trying to describe in words. Did you read and understand the tuning guides suggested to you? When you say "string slap" what are you taking about?


็Hi~ Sorry that I didn't take a photo of the setting I have.

Basically when I turn the bolt to increase the poundage to satisfy my arrow flight and spine for it best performance, the string groove and tip started to become straighter (Vertically) rather than the string bending along the string groove and the curve of the limb. So when I shoot, the bow is not quiet. String and limb are vibrating and creating a rattling noise.

Yesterday I try to adjust the bolt (Restarting all over again) and trying to look at arrow spine and grouping as the main point. I came to where the bolt is about 85% turned in and still was not happy with the sound of the shot so I creased the brace height by a little, then it started to rattle. And it seems like I could not increase the poundage of the bow any more as doing that I will change the angle of limb tip and string lying in the groove (when string is at rest) and the string will hit the limb and create a rattling noise. 

I saw a Traditional bow shooter, they stick some soft material on the limb groove to silence the bow. Is this normal for Target shooter to have them?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Which riser are you using?


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> Which riser are you using?


Was, using Hoyt Horizon 25" with RCX-100 38# medium Limbs.
Now, using W&W Inno Max 25" with RCX-100 38# medium Limbs.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think you need to take your bow to someone who understands bow tuning. Let them set it up for you. Then don't touch it until you understand basic tuning. You are trying to run before learning to crawl.

Grant


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## sandperson0 (Mar 16, 2015)

I use some of the soft material you mention that gets put on the limbs. They do reduce the noise, but I wouldn't call it night and day (at least with my setup). You will prob do better with adjusting the limb bolts to get the bow quiet without the material.

I would adjust your bow to be quiet and not worry about the poundage. Then adjust your sight if your shots are falling short from a particular distance. If you are unhappy with the setup, then I would think you need stronger limbs vs adjusting the limb bolts out of the quiet zone. 38# limbs should be strong enough to shoot any distance, so don't take that as me saying "you need stronger limbs" ;-)

Having just upgraded risers myself, I feel your pain where you just want to shoot instead of going through the tuning process of take a few shots, then unstring, adjust, take a few more shots, tune, take some really bad shots, go backwards a little and repeat for what feels like forever ... but you gotta learn to love it if you want to do it yourself.

Enjoy tuning, it really is a labor of love


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

grantmac said:


> I think you need to take your bow to someone who understands bow tuning. Let them set it up for you. Then don't touch it until you understand basic tuning. You are trying to run before learning to crawl.
> 
> Grant


I'll try that. I normally shooting by myself not joining any archery club so It's pretty hard for me to get an advice, but I'll have to find someone that can help me on this real soon.

Thanks


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

sandperson0 said:


> I use some of the soft material you mention that gets put on the limbs. They do reduce the noise, but I wouldn't call it night and day (at least with my setup). You will prob do better with adjusting the limb bolts to get the bow quiet without the material.
> 
> I would adjust your bow to be quiet and not worry about the poundage. Then adjust your sight if your shots are falling short from a particular distance. If you are unhappy with the setup, then I would think you need stronger limbs vs adjusting the limb bolts out of the quiet zone. 38# limbs should be strong enough to shoot any distance, so don't take that as me saying "you need stronger limbs" ;-)
> 
> ...


Haha It's such a pain isn't it tuning. But enjoying it. Now I manage to eliminate the string vibration hitting the limb noise already but Still need to tune a proper brace height to get the limb dead silence. 

Today I went out to shoot a 50 meters and manage to hit a very good group. so a bit satisfied with the tuning process so far.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

jeang2000 said:


> Haha It's such a pain isn't it tuning. But enjoying it. Now I manage to eliminate the string vibration hitting the limb noise already but Still need to tune a proper brace height to get the limb dead silence.
> 
> Today I went out to shoot a 50 meters and manage to hit a very good group. so a bit satisfied with the tuning process so far.


A loud noise when shooting the bow was likely the arrow smacking the riser because the tuning was wrong, not the string hitting the limbs.


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## crick (Apr 15, 2015)

there's no mention of nockset height?

I found that when i changed my tiller, my nock set position changed a lot. had to do a bit of bareshaft tuning to refind the proper nockset height on the string. brace height of course plays a role but this is what i do:

I shoot barebow on a winex riser with RCX100's at 28#, with 27.5 inch draw length

I have neutral tiller.

I adjust the tiller bolts evenly, unscrewing it to make it just a bit lighter (so it's probably shooting 27.5 or 27lbs at the fingers rather than 28).

I double check my nock setting, notice its slightly off, reposition it to 1/2 inch for me (this is where i normally position it for the start of me tuning).

Make sure my centershot is set, set my plunger to be a bit on the stiff side.

Make sure i have my brace-height set within range of manufacturer's suggested braceheights. i typically start on the low end.

I do a few ends with this setup, changing the braceheight after every few ends by 5mm (quarter of an inch?) until i find one that sounds good/has consistent groupings (dont care if i'm target, just care about tight groupings) - i go from low braceheight to high braceheight of manufacturer's range. after i'm happy with a particular braceheight (sometimes it'll be loud but the groupings are consistant - if you wanna hear a loud bow, google Alan Eagleton lol), i start bareshaft tuning (google 'tuning for tens') - i dont follow the tuning guides specifically... 

I shoot a few ends with fletched and bareshafts. The first thing i correct is where the arrows land vertically - i do that by changing my nockset height position. i do not adjust tiller for that. Typically i have to raise my nock set with my setup. Once the bareshafts land vertically on the same level as my fletched, i start working on horizontal. 

Horizontal bareshafting, i typically just change the spine of the arrow rather than poundage of my limbs, so either shorten arrows, or add more arrow weight, or buy new arrows completely. In my case, i noticed the bareshaft landing extremely far to the left, so i changed from 100gr tips to 125 grain tips to weaken the spine. that landed my bareshafts in the middle of my fletched group. Nockset height set and spine set, i start playing with plunger spring setting... testing it from super stiff to almost unscrewed, going in incremental turns (ie: i'll do 2 full turns after a few ends). I mark down where my groups start centering to target, then i change distance (from 20 to maybe 30 and then 40) and see if i can make micro adjustments to my plunger spring tension, while still shooting bareshafts.

it's my short way of quickly tuning my bow; i know its not the full way, but it gets me there. 

edit:

so here's alan eagleton. I used to think that my bow was loud until i heard alan's. Now i kinda wished my bow was louderrrrrrrr. Also earlier, what i mistook for string slap was my arrow actually hitting the riser from improper nockset height and braceheight. you will want a proper braceheight in order for the arrow to cleanly clear the bow.








HikerDave said:


> A loud noise when shooting the bow was likely the arrow smacking the riser because the tuning was wrong, not the string hitting the limbs.


^^^didnt see this post: yup! that's what it was for me! also what seems loud to you may be quieter than u think. I had someone shot my bow andi didnt even rocognize it - was pretty quiet in comparison to when your head's right next to it.


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

Until the OP comes clean and tells us exactly what he's using and the specs, it's pretty much a futile effort in trying to diagnose what among many things could be wrong. Help was offered but he makes no mention of whether he understood or what.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

im not sure the OP knew what tiller is. how do you max out tiller? until the bolt comes out of one end with the other tightened all the way in? I don't think the OP understood what he was explaining. Shooting with 0 tiller to 2 inch tiller, doesn't really affect much. 


Chris


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## crick (Apr 15, 2015)

c365 said:


> Until the OP comes clean and tells us exactly what he's using and the specs, it's pretty much a futile effort in trying to diagnose what among many things could be wrong. Help was offered but he makes no mention of whether he understood or what.


yeah... its clear that there isnt an understanding of what changing each element does; its actually better if the OP just takes it to a Pro shop and have them explain everything.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

HikerDave said:


> A loud noise when shooting the bow was likely the arrow smacking the riser because the tuning was wrong, not the string hitting the limbs.


Thanks for your input. 

I've checked the clearance of the arrow already. They are fine, I've adjusted the plunger to give it a proper arrow clearance. So the noise should not be from arrow hitting the riser.

I'll try to record my setup and shooting noise today to give everyone more detail.

Thank you all for such good advices.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Crick- on a side note - I love the video. Alan is a class act and a real hero in this sport. Love the guy, love his story, love the venue. Thanks for sharing.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hello everyone~~~

Been away for a couple of days and come back with some video of the noise of my bow.

It's me shooting the following equipment.

25" W&W Nano Max
Medium W&W RCX-100 Limbs 38#
Total Bow length 68"

Brace height 8"3/4 ~ 9"
Tiller Positive 3/8" 

The string hitting the top limb at the end of the shot is because the string is lifted off the limb groove quite far up so when it vibrates it will hit the top limb.

From the side seems normal







Full Setup







Close up on top limb, see string and the groove








Please advice how can I quiet down the bow any tuning technique or equipment that will help. Now the brace height is already quite high should I give it a couple more twist? Or it could be the natural noise of RCX-100 limb~~~

My bow literally sounds like a bare bow shooter rather than olympic recurve swishhhhh style.


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

Hey thanks for the photos jeang. I can't tell anything different than a pretty much normal recurve sound to me given the video conditions and interpretation by my computer speakers.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

You need to learn to understand what BH tuning is.

It's a totally separate step in the process of setting up a bow. You don't seem to understand that limb bolts are adjusted to set bow weight and changed in relation to each other to set tiller.

You still have not given us enough information regarding your setup. (arrows, string, etc)

I don't think what you are hearing is string slap on the limbs. (maybe a little) What I hear is a poor release causing a poor string/nock separation. On a couple of shots in that video, there were some clean string/nock separations however that could be just because you released it just right.. a proper brace height tuning would put that timing right in the middle of the sweet spot so that more of your shots would have that clean separation sound. 

Easton's setup and tuning guide has instructions on how to find the correct BH. The rating in your manual is just a guideline to get you in the proper range. You can go outside the "range" a little if that's where your sweet spot is. 

8.75~9" is a range not a BH. 9.125-9.25 would not be unheard of for a 68" bow.

Sorry to be blunt here but I think this will probably be my last post in this thread unless you start to take note of several people's attempts to guide you, and you just don't seem to want to listen.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Jeang. I think, your limb bolts are turned in too much. Check of you have the round imprints of your limb bolt head on the limb roots. 

If you do find it there, turn out your limb bolts.

With limb bolts turned in so far, your brace height shouldn't be that high.


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## sandperson0 (Mar 16, 2015)

Slightly off topic - Your string looks really fuzzy near the limb tips compared to the rest of the end serving.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

c365 said:


> Hey thanks for the photos jeang. I can't tell anything different than a pretty much normal recurve sound to me given the video conditions and interpretation by my computer speakers.


Thank you~~~ haha some reference info for me.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

dchan said:


> You need to learn to understand what BH tuning is.
> 
> It's a totally separate step in the process of setting up a bow. You don't seem to understand that limb bolts are adjusted to set bow weight and changed in relation to each other to set tiller.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input. 

I'm really new to tuning. I am very sorry to confuse many of the guys who visited my thread and would like to help with "Tiller maxed out" thing. It's basically my bad word-selection. Actually I was just curious about anyone else shooting the poundage Max out (by turning the tiller bolt to the max) then drop either limb down to a neutral or positive tiller as preferred. And the other problem i had was the string noise I was ON about.

Currently I'm shooting Easton A/C/C 3-04 Length 28" spine 0.680 Nocking point is 3/8" String. just a normal beginner level type. Don't know what the exact specification

I know that many others have advice me a really good stuff and to start tuning from the basic i.e. bare shaft tuning, but I have some limitation on the gluing the vane back as I am not quipped with the tool for that. I am thinking of going to get myself a full set of tuning tool i.e. serving Material, Glue, Vane, the vane installation jig, etc. to do it myself. But It might be better for me to just go to an archery club and pay them on a few hour course to improve my shooting form and both look at the equipment setting at the same time. 

You don't have to be sorry for being blunt, I do understand your frustration reading the thread from such a newbie like me and Thank you for baring with me.


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## jeang2000 (Mar 29, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> Jeang. I think, your limb bolts are turned in too much. Check of you have the round imprints of your limb bolt head on the limb roots.
> 
> If you do find it there, turn out your limb bolts.
> 
> With limb bolts turned in so far, your brace height shouldn't be that high.



Thanks~~ 

With the current setting with the bolt turned in quite a lot, if I lower the brace height, the bow will be louder still. I'll try to look for the imprint and turn out the bolt a little today.


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