# Top 20 modern Olympic Recurve archers from the U.S.?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not trying to stir the pot (really!) but I've become a fan of this sport just like a lot of other folks...

If every archer were to shoot against one another, *in their prime* with the same equipment, how would the top 20 American men and women of the modern era (thinking since the '72 games here) be ranked?

Talking outdoors, Olympic format. One event.

Just for the sake of listing some names, I think you could make a decent list from just the Olympic and USAT teams since '72.

For men (off the top of my head and not particularly in order either):

Pace
Ellison
McKinney
Williams
Huish
Barrs
Johnson
White
Wunderle
Eliason
McGlyn
McKittrick
Rabska
Kaminski
Wukie
Fanchin
Stanwood
Wheeler
Kertson
Krueger
Meyers


For the women (a little tougher, I think):

Wilber
Myers
Bechdolt Detro
Ryon
Parker
Ochs
Johnson
Adams
Edds
DeStevens (King)
Rowe
Hull (Skillman)
O'Donnell
Block-Bryant
Shriner (Langston)
Adams
Dykman
Scavotto
White-Arnold
Nichols
Lorig
Leek

Who would you put in your top 20?

Remember, no wrong answers here. Have fun!


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

I've got a few..........Larry Smith, Rod Baston, Richard Bednar

Larry many times was lumped right in there with Pace and McKinney, and I remember him on several US Teams.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, that's the easy part. The hard part is who do you bump off the list to include them if you only get 20?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Deberry (King) is Tom DeBerry's daughter
Rod Baston was a top 10 archer in the world 
So was Doug Brothers-5th or 6th in the 1975 worlds-didn't make the US's top three though! (Pace won, Rick was second,)-he won the 1974 World Field Championship
Steve Lieberman was another strong shooter when I was a kid
Rod, Doug and Steve all had world medals


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I knew this would happen. You don't get to just add folks. We could do that all day, every day... 

Top 20. 

Gotta kick someone off to add someone else. That's how it works. ha, ha.

What I want to know is would Rod, Doug or Steve push three guys out of that list of 20, and if so, which three


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, that's the easy part. The hard part is who do you bump off the list to include them if you only get 20?


those who were not on world or Olympic teams to start with and replace them with those who were. In 1975, the USA had 4 of the top 6 archers in the world

Rodney Baston was third in the 79 worlds, Behind Darrel and Rick

If I had to rank them I would have Darrell first since he won the Gold twice in the Olympics twice in the worlds (with a couple one point or one 10 loss) and was world field champion. John Williams and RIck tied for second-John won all three, Rick has three worlds, and a silver. Jay Barrs fourth-he had Olympic Gold, Field archery championships and I believe he was a indoor world medalist. after that it gets tricky, Vic has an individual silver, and team championships indoor and field and I think he has indoor and field individual medals. Butch Johnson and Huish would also be top ten, Huish had one big win, Butch had years of excellence. Brady also is in the top ten. Baston was on several teams and has an indivudal world medal.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I knew this would happen. You don't get to just add folks. We could do that all day, every day...
> 
> Top 20.
> 
> ...


Guys that don't have any world medals. Wheeler-not knocking him, he doesn't, Stanwood doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) Kertson-cannot recall if he was on a world team in that era.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, you and I both know that medals represent opportunity as much as skill. You could also make the argument they often make in golf, that the field is MUCH deeper at certain times vs. others. 

Also, I'm not thinking historical contributions either. Just pure skill in their prime.

What I want to know is if they are all in the same place at the same time, at their prime, who are the top 20? 

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Vic Berger needs to be in there. The White Knight competed in the golden age of archery. His prime was pre Olympic reintroduction and he stood atop the podium more often than not.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Saw post 1972. Doesn't matter. The man belongs


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

But, if those top 20 shot against each other in 10 competitions, who would win the most? Who would get your $5 bet?


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Ahhh. I knew I could count on JimC. :moviecorn

I know their names...........remember their faces...........but couldn't remember all their places.

Thanks Jim!! I truly knew I could count on you. :thumbs_up

Don't discount ANY of the "old" days super shooters. 

This is truly an interesting thread, and Gabe is entirely correct (with Vic Berger), as there were some AWESOME PAA shooters who were deemed ineligible to compete, and now they would be good to go.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

based on what i've read and seen on TV these are my choices:

MEN
1) darrell pace
2) rick mckinney
3) brady ellison
4) butch johnson
5) jay barrs
6) john williams
7) ed eliason
8) justin huish

WOMEN
1) doreen wilber
2) denise parker
3) khatuna lorig
4) jennifer nichols
5) luanne ryon

i can't come up with 20 names...

i give a lot of weight to olympians also plus the world archery championships..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Come on Vargas. I want 20. You gotta work harder than that. LOL!

Understood about Vic Berger. I've always heard the same (and seen by some of his scores). Heck, I still call it a "berger button!" ha, ha.

Had to be a cutoff somewhere, so I chose '72. Sorry.

Larry, I look at this as an odds game. If we lined up all the top shooters in the past 40 years, who would the odds makers say were the top 20? 

If someone were to do the math and compare scores from 40 years ago to today's scores, then extrapolate the % changes by era, you could reasonably figure the rankings based on their best average scores in major competitions. That would be the only way to base this on facts. Otherwise, it's a total sympathy game.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

And why isn't there an Olympic Archery Hall of Fame? Because there are a few athletes on that list above who should be in it.

John


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Darrell Pace Luann Ryon
Rick McKinney Doreen Wilber
John Williams Linda Myers
Jay Barrs Denise Parker
Justin Huish Jenny Nichols/Hardy
Vic Wunderle Debra Ochs
Doug Brothers Judi Adams
Rod Baston Lynette Johnson
Ed Eliason Irene Daubenspeck/Lorrenson
Brady Ellison Ruth Rowe
Butch Johnson Karen Scavatto 
Steve Lieberman Janet Dykman
Glenn Meyers Khatuna Lorig
Larry Smith Amanda Leek
Rick Bednar Melanie Skillman
Rod White Jennifer O’Donnell
Jake Kaminski Rebecca Wallace
Jacob Wukie Terry Quinn
Jerry Pylypchuk Sherry Block-Bryant
Joe Fanchin Nancy Myrick


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Come on Vargas. I want 20. You gotta work harder than that. LOL!
> 
> .....
> 
> John


...sori john but my "senior" mind can only handle the one's i've actually seen some footage of.....he he he!!

but i'd like to add vic wunderle to my small original list....

my other problem is i really haven't seen much footage of the younger guys...except for brady and jake....

the recent ones i've seen featured a lot of the koreans and some italians,french,mexicans, etc....


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Top 20.
> 
> Gotta kick someone off to add someone else. That's how it works. ha, ha.


Okay John, who are YOU going to kick off of YOUR LIST? By my count you have 21 men and 22 women listed. ;o) - John



limbwalker said:


> For men (off the top of my head and not particularly in order either):
> 
> Pace
> Ellison
> ...


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Darrell Pace Luann Ryon
> Rick McKinney Doreen Wilber
> John Williams Linda Myers
> Jay Barrs Denise Parker
> ...



:thumbs_up I think Mr. McKinney has it!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ah, he took the bait... 

Knew I could count on you Rick. But I wasn't sure whether it would be you, or gt first. Looks like you win this one  ha, ha.

jhinaz, I just pulled those names off the Olympian list and added a few USAT members I could think of. So yea, I guess I could take a crack at it. 

However, I was really hoping someone like Rick would come along and offer their opinion, which is worth many times more than anything I'd have to say on this topic.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Terry Quinn and Jerry Pylypchuck. Nice additions Rick. Thanks.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Mike Gerard was arguably at least as talented a shooter as at least four of the men on the list that started this discussion. A definite contender for top 20 since 1972 under the conditions stated in the original post. Mark Hainline and World Compound field champion Rod Menzer were also immensely talented recurve shooters. For the women Lori Mitchell, Ashley Kamuf, and Courtney Kane deserve to be mentioned. I am also personally convinced Ann Hoyt would have contended as a 1972 Olympic medalist if she had not lost her amateur status in the 1960's. 

A rather less potentially contentious but much sadder topic might be to name shooters who, due to life circumstances, never reached their true potential. In my mind Junior Sizemore tops that one. And notably, in this country, there are a number of extremely talented women whose careers were destroyed by overbearing (or quite possibly insane) fathers. Very sad.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

>--gt--> said:


> Mike Gerard was arguably at least as talented a shooter as at least four of the men on the list that started this discussion. A definite contender for top 20 since 1972 under the conditions stated in the original post. Mark Hainline and World Compound field champion Rod Menzer were also immensely talented recurve shooters. For the women Lori Mitchell, Ashley Kamuf, and Courtney Kane deserve to be mentioned. I am also personally convinced Ann Hoyt would have contended as a 1972 Olympic medalist if she had not lost her amateur status in the 1960's.
> 
> A rather less potentially contentious but much sadder topic might be to name shooters who, due to life circumstances, never reached their true potential. In my mind Junior Sizemore tops that one. And notably, in this country, there are a number of extremely talented women whose careers were destroyed by overbearing (or quite possibly insane) fathers. Very sad.


Junior Sizemore won the 18 and under division at Miami 1999. IIRC his father had a business that involved ink or toner cartridges and was injured, or took ill and Junior had to run the business. Angela Moscarelli-world compound champion at 13 showed great promise in recurve but had family issues that need not be repeated here. Leah CLawson was a nice shooter and a very nice young lady-she made the 2001 team only to see her dreams crushed by the terrorist attack that killed 3000 and shut down the flights to the worlds in China. Courtney Kane was pretty well done when I switched from 3D to FITA but I remember her in the "Dare to Compare" ads that PSE had for its Centra bow. 

Another guy missing from that list might be Allen Rasor. His junior record was awesome-I believe he was the first person to ever shoot a 1400-albeit at one of the JOAD distances FITAS


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

George, that would be a LONG list. In just my 10 years, I can name a bunch. Corey McCormick always comes to mind. He beat me in the quarterfinals of the 2004 TX Shootout and went on to finish 4th in that event. I think he was only 17 at the time. Dane Peterson is another. Kendra Harvey another. And the list goes on and on.

Mike and Mark are certainly great picks for the list. Wasn't aware of Rod's prowess with a recurve, but it doesn't surprise me. 

George, why isn't there a hall of fame for shooters?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You know what really strikes me when I look at those lists, and subsequent names to consider?

Look at how few got to the top and stayed there for any length of time. I mean, when you consider that list of all those world-class archers, and then think about what just a few of them have been able to do. Thinking of the longevity of Darrrell and Rick, Vic and Butch, Jenny and Khatuna and Denise. Really says a lot about them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Junior Sizemore won the 18 and under division at Miami 1999. IIRC his father had a business that involved ink or toner cartridges and was injured, or took ill and Junior had to run the business.


Looks like he's not quite done yet.

http://www.odproshops.com/morristownxfestjan192008.htm


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> jhinaz, I just pulled those names off the Olympian list and added a few USAT members I could think of. So yea, I guess I could take a crack at it. John


I misunderstood.....I thought the list of names in post #1 was 'your top 20 list'. My bad! 

On a side-note, is Jerry Pylpchuck the same person that was DOS at the 2012 Huntsman Games in St. George, UT (I believe his wife's name is Eileen)? - John


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

That would be Jerry. Gets a lifetime "archer with the most guts" award for shooting 1300+ in Nationals a few weeks- perhaps days- after severing three fingers of his bow hand in a table saw accident in the early 90's. I winced every time he launched an arrow- so did he. Shot the double FITA with pins sticking out the ends of his reattached fingers (and against medical advice if I recall correctly). Second "guts" award might be split between Butch Johnson who made it through an entire Olympic trials stage in '96- or was it '00? with a badly broken leg, and Kevin Wilkey who shot the Vegas final with a broken femur this year. 

Some archers are tough!




> Another guy missing from that list might be Allen Rasor.


 If you mean the "top 20" then without a doubt. First person to score more than 1400 in any round and a tremendous field shooter with a raft of medals in national and world competition.



> why isn't there a hall of fame for shooters?


There is the http://www.archeryhalloffame.org/ but that is for all archers, not just target shooters. About a dozen of the roughly 70 inductees were best known as target archers but all did much more for the sport than just fill out scorecards. Most, but not all inductees, are Americans, which might arguably show a bad case of tunnel vision.

World Archery also has the equivalent, with the Gold, Silver and Bronze Plaquettes awarded by Congress.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Surprised where Brady is getting listed by most. I guess until he wins that individual Olympic medal....

Also can we convince Darrell to pull a 'Rocky V' and come out of retirement to take on the young upstart Brady Ellison?!? I would pay to see that!


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I agree, that I forgot Allan Rasor. My bad. I would take out Joe Franchin. The others I feel comfortable of keeping. Most have won at least an adult national title or made a few world teams. As for Brady. His listing is due to his World and Olympic accomplishments. However, I hope that he is not finished yet and will become one of the great ones. That is up to him, not us. I would put Allan between Steve Lieberman and Glenn Meyers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Surprised where Brady is getting listed by most. I guess until he wins that individual Olympic medal....


Brady has a way to go yet, but I'm confident he will get there in time. Fact is, the most accomplished Olympic archer we have still shooting is Vic. Individual medalist, team medalist and top individual finish for the U.S. in three consecutive Olympic games. That is one hell of an impressive Olympic resume that won't be eclipsed anytime soon.

John


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> I agree, that I forgot Allan Rasor. My bad. I would take out Joe Franchin. The others I feel comfortable of keeping. Most have won at least an adult national title or made a few world teams. As for Brady. His listing is due to his World and Olympic accomplishments. However, I hope that he is not finished yet and will become one of the great ones. That is up to him, not us. I would put Allan between Steve Lieberman and Glenn Meyers.


Thanks for mentioning Allan Rasor, I was going to write about him. He is still in my memory as having an incredible potential, never fully exploded.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

another one to consider is former national champion (73 IIRC) Kevin Erlandson


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> Thanks for mentioning Allan Rasor, I was going to write about him. He is still in my memory as having an incredible potential, never fully exploded.


I think there are a lot of archers, and I would include myself in this group, who had tremendous potential that was never met for one reason or another. We could go on forever about those archers, I think.

But this is about the top 20 who peaked during their shooting career. At their peaks, how would we rank our top 20, and who would make the cut?

And once again, as usual, we only talk about the men. Very unfortunate.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ....
> And once again, as usual, we only talk about the men. Very unfortunate.


This tread is about US top archers. I have personally seen shooting many of the top 20 men Rick has mentioned, but few only of the women, were surely Denise Parker was much over all other in the list. 
If i have to do the same list for top 20 Italian archers, list can be full for men, but in women I will end up with may be 10 to 15 names only. 
We tend to remember champions of our age and those we have seen shooting and winning personally, and for sure everywere (but in korea) men are more than women.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

BTW, it is ALLEN Rasor.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good point Vittorio. The last 25 years have been tough for nearly all female recurve archers outside of Asia.

John


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## JByers (Jul 18, 2007)

*Mr. Peabody: The way back machine and the PAA.*

When you think of the PAA, I am reminded of Darrell Dixon from Rolla, Missouri. I remember him trying to get in the Guiness book of records. He shot 712 5's in a row at indoor 20 yard PAA competition. Seeing a 59X 300 target is mind blowing. And finally, Steve Robinson is still shooting bullseyes in his seventies.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> He shot 712 5's in a row at indoor 20 yard PAA competition.


This was recurve? Amazing.

So, here's the next question. You line all 20 of these men and women up, in their prime at the same event. Who wins? Who places?

Of course for the men, the logical answer is that Darrell wins. But maybe it's not so obvious as that. Who places? McKinney and Ellison? Barrs and Huish? Tough call.

For the women, who wins? Jenny? Denise? Miranda? Tougher call, I think. 

John


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Vittorio said:


> This tread is about US top archers. I have personally seen shooting many of the top 20 men Rick has mentioned, but few only of the women, were surely Denise Parker was much over all other in the list.


Although I have a great respect for Denise and feel she never got to the level she was capable of, I still believe Luann Ryon was the best we had since 1972. She came out of nowhere in 1976, won the Olympic Gold Medal and then in 1977 she won the World Target Championships (John Williams was her coach). She was one of the most graceful archers who helped those who needed help, defended those who needed defending and made us laugh on more than one occasion. At one Olympic Festival event, the winds were howling, gusting up to 40 mph and Luann was the last person on the line. Her bow arm was moving a good 40 degrees both ways and with just 10 seconds left on the clock she let down, took the arrow out of her bow and threw it at the target. She said that was about the only way the arrow was going to head in the right direction. She was always a joy to be around. 

Although the PAA archers had their moment and yes, Darrell Dixon was the king of 20 yard shooting, it is hard to compare their accomplishments to a FITA archer. No disrespect, just a different game. Even Vic Berger who shot a 1213 without a clicker was no match to the likes of Darrell Pace who shot a 1291 at the same event. However, if you put them at 20 yards, there would be a more competitive nature between them. 

I have been fortunate to be around during most of these years and had a first hand look at these archers and the one thing I put before all others is the winning capabilities. Some could have been much better than they finished but mentally they did not have the skills required to be ranked in this top 20 list. I give you another example. Al Muller did not use a clicker and at 90 meters during practice nobody could beat him. NOBODY! He could shoot 50+ scores at 90 meters on an 80 cm face. He was incredible to watch. I am not making this up. I watched him do this time and again. But when the whistle blew he was lucky to break 1200 on a FITA round. He told me one time, “I know I am the best there is, but I just can’t prove it!” 

Jim, you are correct again. Kevin Erlandson won the 1972 Nationals (1971 as an intermediate). He won a few international events but never got the chance to make a world team due to shoulder and arm injuries. He had the talent and I would put him between Glenn Meyers and Larry Smith.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, what a great story about Luann. Would love to meet her some day. Thanks for sharing that. It made me laugh (as I've often wanted to do the same thing!).

So Rick, in a shootout, who would you expect to place behind Darrell? 

From everything I've read about Denise, I agree she had a little gas left in the tank. I've often wished she would pick up her bow and train again. She's not even as old as I am for pete's sake!

So are we talking Luann, Jenny and Denise on the podium then?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John,
I listed the archers according to what I believe is a my ranking. I put some people above other people mainly because they performed when it counted. I struggled between John and myself but feel comfortable that all three of us made our mark. Unfortunately my timing sucked since Darrell was on the scene making history becoming the number one archer for 100 years. My bad....

For the women, I see Luann as number one and Doreen and Linda number 2 & 3. I chose them due to their wins. Doreen won the 1972 Gold and placed at the World Championships. Linda Meyers won the 1973 World Target and was at the 1975 World Target and 1976 Olympics. There were no team awards at the Olympics until 1988. Although Denise could have been number 1 it just was not to be. I didn't really look at National titles with the top archers because they all had them... Longevity is a double edged sword since sometimes it means that the bench is decaying, thus some will last longer although may not be as good but since nobody was good enough to push them to the side then they stayed on top (nationally) but did not perform so well internationally. 

One of the most difficult things for me to grasp during my good years was understanding why it lasted so long. I struggled with the idea that nobody was taking Darrell's or my place. Before us, on average the top US male archer made two World Teams and that was it. That meant we really were in trouble for the future. I tried so hard to help the archers with the USAT program and was able to make it last a bit longer but eventually that was destroyed from within and we ended up with archers who just could not pull it off like we used to. That being World and Olympic Champions. However, let's hope that we are back on track but still we have not had any champions for some time. World Cups are nice but to compare it to World Champion is like saying a National mail in Champion is equal to a National Champion.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Matt and Rick, and everyone,
Yeah we ALL would pay good money to see that, but I have asked DOP and he was honest with me, though IF he is looking at this thread, knowing his competitive nature, I wouldn't rule it out, but he said to me it is hard to compete at something when you were the #1 in the world, with all the training hours he would have to put in to get there again....you can fill in the rest, but I will not.
It IS fun to watch Darrell shoot at JOAD, and I ALWAYS tell the kids, "When Darrell shoots WATCH HIM! You WILL learn a lot JUST from watching Darrell shoot." He's still go the same timing, same shot sequence, same everything...I'd love to have him shoot National Target Championships 2013! DARRELL PACE, we want you on the field again!!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Liz, I think it is very difficult to continue to shoot when you know you will never again be able to perform at the level you once did. I feel some of that pressure these days, but my love of the sport and desire to stay current for the benefit of my students overrides any fear of embarrassment I may have. 



> Darrell was on the scene making history becoming the number one archer for 100 years. My bad....


LOL. Rick, for better or worse, you and Darrell will forever be linked in this sport, and that's a real credit to you. A lesser archer would have long been forgotten in the wake of his accomplishments. From where I sit, I figure you probably deserve credit for some of his victories, and he some of yours. 

Thanks for the insight too. Very interesting stuff for this "archery fan."

John


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

That is exactly what Darrell said! So, John, you filled in the blank!
Gotta agree with what you said about Rick and Darrell, they pushed each other, which is what a good rivalry does to the other people invoked. It takes you to another level, which is to say, you are always reaching for the challenge of shooting that perfect shot every single shot. Darrell told me last week it took him 24 years to shoot an entire tournament shooting a perfect form every single shot (1984 games)...now I have my goal, perfect form every shot. Perfect mindset, visualization, execution every single shot. I think after a tournament like that, one would be mentally exhausted, because really what is archery, after you have the form? 95% mental, 5% form...the trick is to not let your MIND get in the way of shooting that perfect shot! Did I get off topic? Sorry! SHOOT YOUR FORM THE SCORE WILL FOLLOW!!





limbwalker said:


> Liz, I think it is very difficult to continue to shoot when you know you will never again be able to perform at the level you once did. I feel some of that pressure these days, but my love of the sport and desire to stay current for the benefit of my students overrides any fear of embarrassment I may have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Liz, that should be everyone's goal. I agree on your ratios as well.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Liz, I think it is very difficult to continue to shoot when you know you will never again be able to perform at the level you once did. I feel some of that pressure these days, but my love of the sport and desire to stay current for the benefit of my students overrides any fear of embarrassment I may have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lot of truth there John. Jim Lovell once said the US would never have made it to the moon without the Russians space program.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Elite archers picking up their bows again. I have thought about that several times and every once in awhile I go out and shoot my bow, thinking "can I do it again?" and realize that I could probably get close at least to the level of scores I used to shoot. However, like Darrell told Liz, the amount of time and effort to do that is just not worth it to a person who has been there and lived the dream. Knowing the odds is not on your side is another point. But the major reason that you do not see many elites stick around is not their ego (after all, what have they got to prove to anyone?), but their mental game has deteriorated so much that it will take a lot of time to rebuild. The mental is so fragile that it doesn't take much for the top archer to trip and fall and when they fall, they either get back up and slowly work it out or they are finished. If you watch those top archers at the Olympics, there is no doubt that many had the physical talent and technique to win, but the biggest difference was in the mind. I had the opportunity to talk with Randy Ulmer and Jay Barrs who both shot in Vegas this year. They both expressed the same thing about the mental game. They both looked good in their shot, they both felt good but when the whistle blew for score their attitude changed and both felt more pressure on themselves than ever before. That's why when you win one world or Olympic title it's good but winning another one after you have tasted the wonderful affect of a Gold Medal, it gets much harder. Getting into another world in order to go after another world or Olympic title is all mental but in a zone not experienced by very many people.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This is what makes the four and five-time Olympians so exceptional IMO. Unbelievable drive and singular focus that few can maintain over the long term. Of course, they usually are living a lifestyle that's conducive to achieving those goals as well, plus they are blessed with good health, etc. But from a mental standpoint, they are pretty unique.

I think that being at the top of your game, then laying off for a long time, and trying to pick it back up again is a lot like trying to recover from an injury (and I've experienced both now...). You are struggling both with the body and the mind to return to a place you once were. Flipping the switch in your mind to once again being in that "learning" role is dang tough. Having patience and accepting small improvements is tough. The mind is always wanting to take a person back to who they used to be...

John


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

any sport at the highest elite level takes a lot of talent, determination and sacrifice..

once this apex is reached the talent may still be there but the other 2 factors will no longer be as strong except for a very few...

tiger woods is now experiencing this in some way but he is an exception as he does not want to go back to what he used to be but to be even "better"...

i know of no other athlete who has manifested this kind of determination and sacrifice after falling off the mountain and reach the success he is currently experiencing...

i salute these kind of people and will continue to watch in awe as they strive to reach for the stars...


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> ..... That's why when you win one world or Olympic title it's good but winning another one after you have tasted the wonderful affect of a Gold Medal, it gets much harder. Getting into another world in order to go after another world or Olympic title is all mental but in a zone not experienced by very many people.


..and every time it takes longer to face again the mountain with real determination to try to climb on its top once again ... 
When to stop trying? Answer is different for each champion, and depends from so many factors, not mental game ability only. But if they love archery, they will stay in archery even if the mountain becomes a challenge to youngers, only.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> ..and every time it takes longer to face again the mountain with real determination to try to climb on its top once again ...
> When to stop trying? Answer is different for each champion, and depends from so many factors, not mental game ability only. But if they love archery, they will stay in archery even if the mountain becomes a challenge to youngers, only.


Vittorio, your last sentence reflect my feelings exactly. I have climbed that mountain shooting fingers many times, Then I left for the dark side of release and compound for 20 + years and because of a freak injury, have come back to recurve and fingers. I love archery to the point that I am not embarrased to get beat by other archers. Does that mean that I enjoy getting beat, no, but at an advanced age the reality is that that might happen more than I care to think. On the other hand, It is fun to rekindle the old fires and try to give the current generation a run for their money. To me, it's a win-win situation because I'm doing something that gives me pleasure.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

It can be as much fun to drive around the mountain to the other side as it is to scale the mountain for a second time.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But if they love archery, they will stay in archery even if the mountain becomes a challenge to youngers, only.


Amen to that. 

Something I'd suggest to all the former top archers is that they consider staying in the sport as a way of giving back to the sport that has done so much for them. Coaching is good, yes, but it's also great for everyone to see that archer still shooting. 

Ed Eliason is an inspiration to so many. So is Larry Skinner. So was Wilburn Wooten and So is Butch Johnson. People want to see these archers shoot. I see this in my students nearly every week. They love that I'm willing to coach them, but when I pick up my bow to shoot, it takes the experience for them to another level. When I compete, it gives them all someone to cheer for. And how I handle my victories and defeats offers them all lessons to learn from. 

Another reason I continue to compete is because at every event I attend, I'm giving some young archer, or even an older archer new to the sport, an opportunity to measure their progress against an Olympian. And believe me, I remember well what that feels like. I drove home from NFAA Indoor Nationals in 2004 on quite a high because even though I had a miss on one arrow, I still finished ahead of two Olympic gold medalists. That's when I finally had the courage to set some competitive goals for the year. Had they not shown up at that event, who knows what I would have done. It certainly would have changed my outlook on my potential in the sport.

Yes, there are many ways to give back to this sport, but sometimes one has to look past their own personal goals to see all those looking up to them for inspiration.

John


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

It's interesting to read that there are so much expectations for a champion. It reads as though the average archer owns the champion and it is expected that the champion be there slaving away shooting as an example for other archers. Really? I am surprised to read these comments since I know that Darrell continues to give in archery more than the average or even majority of archers. I spend hours helping archery in more ways than one. It just isn't in the lime light. John Williams was coaching JOAD archers in Florida, Ann Butz continues to help the local JOAD, Hardy Ward shoots and helps when he can. I say these things because it is very amusing to read other's point of view.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, if you're referring to my post, I think you've just confirmed my feelings through your examples. Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way.

My suggestion was merely that - a suggestion - not a criticism. It's my answer to the question "If I can't shoot like I used to shoot, then what's the point?" that I know some will ask themselves from time to time... There is always a point, especially if the individual is willing to look beyond their own performance.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Following up on my thought...

USArchery could do a LOT more to encourage former top archers to continue to shoot. And they SHOULD be doing this for the good of the sport. 

Why any Olympian ever has to pay another year's membership to USArchery is beyond me. Why any former USAT member ever has to pay an entry fee into a USArchery event is beyond me. They would do very well to ensure that every former Olympic team and USAT member is encouraged in every way to show up and shoot at as many events as possible. 

This not only makes them more accessible to the membership, but it shows an appreciation for those archer's efforts and what they bring to the event. I know the event organizers would appreciate it.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

When I was a young intermediate archer (around 16 or so), I went to my first NAA (USAA) National Target Championships. During the opening ceremonies, the Director of Shooting introduced various dignitaries and then they introduced former World Champions. That to me was one of the most awe inspiring moments in my archery life. I remember them calling out OK Smathers, Vicki Cook, Hardy Ward, John Williams, and Ray Rogers. These people were still shooting but more importantly they were introduced, thus inspiring kids like me to want to be like them. It didn't matter if they shot, just their presence was enough. Unfortunately, today, there are 50+ World Champions with all of the divisions available. Thus, the elimination of the introductions. Too bad. I think it could be a wonderful thing to help inspire kids.


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## RMBX10 (Jun 20, 2002)

Rick McKinney said:


> When I was a young intermediate archer (around 16 or so), I went to my first NAA (USAA) National Target Championships. During the opening ceremonies, the Director of Shooting introduced various dignitaries and then they introduced former World Champions. That to me was one of the most awe inspiring moments in my archery life. I remember them calling out OK Smathers, Vicki Cook, Hardy Ward, John Williams, and Ray Rogers. These people were still shooting but more importantly they were introduced, thus inspiring kids like me to want to be like them. It didn't matter if they shot, just their presence was enough. Unfortunately, today, there are 50+ World Champions with all of the divisions available. Thus, the elimination of the introductions. Too bad. I think it could be a wonderful thing to help inspire kids.


That was still being done at the NAA Outdoor in Oxford, Ohio in the mid-late 90's. I can quite clearly remember that happening in 1995 because Gary Broadhead and Angela Moscarelli had just won the World Championship in Indonesia. IIRC it was done mid-week because not all of that team had returned from Indonesia yet. Rick, weren't you on that team?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Following up on my thought...
> 
> USArchery could do a LOT more to encourage former top archers to continue to shoot. And they SHOULD be doing this for the good of the sport.
> 
> ...


i had never thought about it, but this is right on the mark. 

Chris


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