# How about a new IBO Hunter Class??



## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

I know that this type of thing has been beaten to death, but bear with me for a new radical idea that might generate more interest than you can imagine. Just try to have an open mind and not be too hung up how "you" think it should be. 

As I've stated in other threads, I know lots of hunters but only a handful of people that actually shoot IBO events. Most hunters either don't like the format, equipment rules or a few other factors. Most hunters I know say they would be interested in a format that allows them to use their hunting bow "as is" because about 50% I know use slider type sights and not pins. The next question I get is about using range finders since almost all hunt with range finders. The second they are told they cannot use them they are turned off. And finally, when we do shoot a fun shoot where they can use the range finder they almost always want to shoot from a variety of distances from 10yrd to 50yrd to vary is up and challenge themselves.

Why not try a novelty class/outlaw class or whatever you want to call it and maybe make it into an official class someday depending on interest. I remember when ASA made the K45 class and initially there was some gripes about it and limit participation but if you look at the stats, more people are giving it a try.

This would be my recommendation for rules/equipment. Remember, we want to promote hunters to come play and pay so give the target archery mindset a rest.

Equipment: Exact same as the hunter class with the exception of sight and release. Allow slider/wheel etc sights. No lenses allowed. Still keep the 12" stabilizer rule. Keep the 2" fletching rule. Keep the screw in point rule. Change the release to only a trigger type(thumb or finger) but no back tension. Yes, some people may hunt with BT but the percentage is so low I don't believe it should apply. If slider sights are illegal in HC, then BT is out here.

The use of rangefinders is permitted. This will be a known yardage class. I debated about the 50/50 known/unknown but for now believe an all known will be more inviting.

Distance: 50yrd max shot. Since variety would be nice in range I don't know if a new stake color should be made or if they could use the open color. I don't know how they set open stakes at National shoots if it also gives the shorter variety of shots or if they are all long. I know at locals they are all over the place.

I still believe we have a wealth of shooters that we don't tap into because of the rigid rules and equipment allowed. If they can't play with what they have, they won't play.

Using the bad analogy of golf, I look around and find 11 courses within 20 minutes of me. Anyone is welcome to play as long as they have clubs and balls. Lots of interest and thus lots of courses. Not a single restriction other than maybe a collared shirt at a few courses.

I have to drive over an hour to get to a 3d course around here and even then they are extremely limited. Not much demand for them by anyone other than target archers and a few hunters just going to have fun.

Just a thought I figured I'd throw out there. I know I would certainly enjoy a class like that and so would lots of buddies.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*Open Mind*

I'm keeping an open mind on this..

I have a pro shop and a 3D Club I own with some friends. 

I don't think the Hunters really care about the equipment, it is just an excuse and a cop out. Here is why I think this.

I promote the club shoots to my customers and many are just intimidated to come and join in. They think they are not good enough, I encourage them all the time and once I can get someone talked into attending a shoot.. They love it and are hooked. 

The first year we held shoots, many of the Hunters expressed a wish to be able to compete for money instead of trophies. So we made a "Money Hunter" class... guess what.. only one guy wanted to compete in that class. Yea, they talk a big game here in the shop but when it comes to putting down some money they chickened out. 

This year we got rid of the hunter money class and made it, Hunter A and B with B for beginners and A for hunters with more experience and/or a "hunting style slider sight" No lens strictly hunting set-up, Immediately half of the guys in the Hunter class jumped to the B Class. 

I would love to see more Hunters attend our shoots but when they hear the word tournament it makes them freak out. I literally had to guarantee a guy that he would have fun or I would refund his registration fees. Lucky for me he did fall in love with 3d or I'd have some 'splainin to do to the club pres. 


The first step is to just get them to attend a shoot, once they see how fun and laid back it is, they will most likely want to attend more.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

Well said X Force Girl. During our winter league we have about 80 people shooting with hunters making up about 98 %. These folks don't shoot during the summer months but rather fish or other summer activities. I think we have enough classes already.


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## X-SHOOTER (Feb 9, 2005)

The last thing the IBO needs is another class, as far as range finders go, it is a competition thus leave the rangefinder home and try to improve your game instead of relying on a crutch to make you think you are better than you are. I am not being harsh, it is just like X-Force girl said, if you ease up on restrictions, there will always be shooters who will take advantage of it that shouldn't be there. There are just a few holes in your ideas, also backtension release will not make you a better shooter necessarily, a release is a release you just need to know how to shoot it properly, so the BT release should not be excluded anywhere, some people do hunt with them. And then there will be guys who will argue that they hunt with 30" stabilizers. Also if your buddies are shooting slider sights and out to 50 yards then they could just shoot open class. Just some advice, the IBO rules will accomodate about any shooter, no need for another class.


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## bsuewell (Jan 12, 2007)

Well said ,I agree. Its a matter of getting them intrested. I am a hunter first and foremost. I picked up foam spanking to be a better more ethical hunter and got hooked myself. :shade:


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

the hunter class in ibo WAS suppose to bring people into the sport of archery. what happened was a bunch of guys dropped down to that class to win saomething. give me a break a break shooting 430s indoor world 420s outdoor bottom line class wasnt meant for those guys they should be ashamed!


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

Understood on some points. 

I don't believe money shoots will ever work well for most average archers. They simply know their ability and don't want to donate to who they already know the best is. I agree lots of guys talk big and don't follow through with showing up but that's the nature of most things. 

Saying that guys with sliders could just shoot the open class is a bit ridiculous though. Yep, my buddy wants to stand around with long stabs, lens, etc while holding his hunting bow. There's a reason those open shooters use that equipment and also a reason it's not legal in HC....because it does offer an advantage.

As far as range finders go, I just don't get why the hate about them. I guess a hunter should tell the open guy to drop the lens and long stabilizer and learn to shoot without it. It's basically the same insult. Why can't a sport evolve into another option for those that want it. 

I am simply trying to give an option that will interest more people yet I'm hearing that they should just learn to adapt to the rules as they are. That's a pretty good way to stay stagnant with an organization.

What would it hurt to try? More IBO dues for the national. More shooters might show up for state shoots, local qualifiers etc all which put money in local club pocket and IBO's pocket. And they you also get more shooters going to locals just to practice for a national shoot like I'm doing tomorrow. Or, we can just keep watching local 3d clubs struggle and shut down leaving no place to shoot.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

Deer Slayer I said:


> the hunter class in ibo WAS suppose to bring people into the sport of archery. what happened was a bunch of guys dropped down to that class to win saomething. give me a break a break shooting 430s indoor world 420s outdoor bottom line class wasnt meant for those guys they should be ashamed!


What class should they shoot in? Not sure if you've checked but the IBO is broken into equipment based classes. So if I show up with a 12 inch stabilizer and fixed pins it doesnt matter if I've shot 6 days or 60 years, HC is the class I fit best in. Cant complain about guys shooting in the class they are given. It also doesnt matter if there was one class for adult males or 50 each one of them would be won by the guys that put in the most time and effort making themselves better. Nothing bothers me more than the guys that dust off their bows shoot them 3 or 4 times a year and expect to go to an IBO shoot and compete.


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

flintcreek6412 said:


> Understood on some points.
> 
> I don't believe money shoots will ever work well for most average archers. They simply know their ability and don't want to donate to who they already know the best is. I agree lots of guys talk big and don't follow through with showing up but that's the nature of most things.
> 
> ...



a lens and long stabilzer do not give you as big of an advantage as you might think..i think a lens hurts you more then it helps you..those guys shoot that equipment cause that is where the better shooters shoot. They could bring there hunting setup and shoot but then all the whining would be about how they are sandbagging...

3d is about picking a spot and judging distance, leave your range finder at home...someoen that uses one is screwed if they leave it at hoem or stuff happens to fast and they cant get the animal ranged before the shot..not much of a hunter...


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I will say it again 3D archery has to have one universal set of rules and targets to get to a level you are talking about! If I shoot a course in Ohio or Texas I should see the same targets and classes! All other sports have set rules playing fields and equipment. Any other sport before you go to play you know what to exspect but 3D archery is out of control with every range setting their own rules classes and targets! It would be nice to actually practice on targets at different ranges that are going to be used at national events.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

flintcreek6412 said:


> Keep the 2" fletching rule.


What's this 2" fletching rule?


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

All you guys that are against range finders I hope you don't use them when you hunt! Have you checked the stats for the K45 this year in the ASA? It is the second largest class and growing. More people just want to shoot their bows not range targets also. Times have changed. If you are against the known classes try them first it will tell you real quick how good a shot you are, how good your form is and it will show your target panic if you have it! A bad shot on a known course can't be blamed on guessing the wrong yardage!


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

cenochs said:


> All you guys that are against range finders I hope you don't use them when you hunt! Have you checked the stats for the K45 this year in the ASA? It is the second largest class and growing. More people just want to shoot their bows not range targets also. Times have changed. If you are against the known classes try them first it will tell you real quick how good a shot you are, how good your form is and it will show your target panic if you have it! A bad shot on a known course can't be blamed on guessing the wrong yardage!


Let's see here. ASA Pro's, Semi-Pro's and Open A shoot unkown yardage right? You are expected to move up or forced to move up to a higher class so it seems like the goal is to get people away from known yardage to really prove yourself in any 3D organization (not just IBO) so why do you think most people like unknown yardage?  Personally I like the added challenge of unknown and so do the Pro's. Known yardage in ASA is meant to bring spot shooters out to get them interested then they move to another class after getting used to seeing the targets at different distances a few times.

As to the OP. It would be very hard to have a known yardage class in the IBO since you would have to have seperate courses for them to compete on.


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## VULCAN4ME (Jun 23, 2007)

Range finders are always out in our 3d groups and we do not discuss yardage. Range finders do not come out hunting with me as that is the last thing I want to do when that buck of a lifetime walks by is movement to see how far it is I am very confident in judging yardage so when that deer walks by I can pull up judge it and when he walks another 5 steps I do not need to re range it I can concentrate on placing my pin and letting a solid accurate shot fly. JMO


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## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

I agree with everything but the rule that excludes back tension releases. There isnt a reason why you couldnt use one. Everyone is capable of using one and most top shooters that use a thumb trigger style release execute their shot using back tension. You can use an index finger style release with back tension, you can execute a shot using back tension with any style of release or finger shooting for that matter. So excluding a hinge-style back tension release isnt really fair IMO. Everyone has an opportunity to shoot a shot with back tension, and honestly, it is the best way to consistently make a strong shot everytime. If you don't allow true back tension releases (hinges, pull throughs) but allow thumb triggers, its not really fair to exclude someone based upon the style of release, not the method of activation.


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

3dshooter25 said:


> I agree with everything but the rule that excludes back tension releases. There isnt a reason why you couldnt use one. Everyone is capable of using one and most top shooters that use a thumb trigger style release execute their shot using back tension. You can use an index finger style release with back tension, you can execute a shot using back tension with any style of release or finger shooting for that matter. So excluding a hinge-style back tension release isnt really fair IMO. Everyone has an opportunity to shoot a shot with back tension, and honestly, it is the best way to consistently make a strong shot everytime. If you don't allow true back tension releases (hinges, pull throughs) but allow thumb triggers, its not really fair to exclude someone based upon the style of release, not the method of activation.


i know guys that use BT releases for hunting...


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*?*



Bowtechie said:


> Let's see here. ASA Pro's, Semi-Pro's and Open A shoot unkown yardage right? You are expected to move up or forced to move up to a higher class so it seems like the goal is to get people away from known yardage to really prove yourself in any 3D organization (not just IBO) so why do you think most people like unknown yardage?  Personally I like the added challenge of unknown and so do the Pro's. Known yardage in ASA is meant to bring spot shooters out to get them interested then they move to another class after getting used to seeing the targets at different distances a few times.
> 
> As to the OP. It would be very hard to have a known yardage class in the IBO since you would have to have seperate courses for them to compete on.



K50 is a professional class that professionals shoot in! You don't have to move to the classes you mentioned you can shoot Professional K50. For you guys that say you carry a rangefinder but don't use it let me ask you this do you range trees stumbs and rocks while you are waiting on the deer? Numbers for the K45 class speak louder than anything I can type here on AT!


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

cenochs said:


> K50 is a professional class that professionals shoot in! You don't have to move to the classes you mentioned you can shoot Professional K50. For you guys that say you carry a rangefinder but don't use it let me ask you this do you range trees stumbs and rocks while you are waiting on the deer? Numbers for the K45 class speak louder than anything I can type here on AT!


use it to double check your yardage after everyone has shot..


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## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

Kale said:


> i know guys that use BT releases for hunting...


Yea, that is what I was saying. I use a Back tension style release for hunting too. I was saying that it wouldnt be fair to exclude back tension releases from a class that allows any other type of releases because back tension is a method, not necessarily just a style or release.


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## fletchunter (Jun 13, 2009)

probably a dumb question but, why does the hunter class have to have screw in field points?


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## KIT-HAN-NE Flinger (Jan 5, 2005)

*hmmm*



fletchunter said:


> probably a dumb question but, why does the hunter class have to have screw in field points?


nostalgia ?


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

I appreciate the feedback. Some of you guys are still thinking too much like target archers and not like hunters. Yes, I compete in 3d and understand that it's target archery. What I am trying to do is relay things I've heard from hunters that keep them away from IBO events so that maybe accomodations could be made to welcome them.

As far as back tension...I figured that would stir some. Yes, I understand all releases can be used in such a manner and that you can hunt with them. But I bet less than 1% of all hunters use a true BT release. Yet I would bet that 20% or more hunters use sliders that are illegal in the HC. About 50% of hunters I know use them but it may be a regional thing. Since BT is allowed in HC, should we also allow sliders style sights? 

Heck, I didn't even throw in the arrow diameter rule I thought should apply for fear of even greater flaming. I mean how many people really hunt with 25/64 shaft. Maybe some, but not most.

I have shot a local K45 event once and loved it. I slowed my bow to 280fps and took my hunting bow out and had fun. It has tempted me to leave IBO and dabble with ASA and then move into unknown yardage events. K45 was a great way for a guy to feel out an organization and then go from there. I still believe a HC K50 with real hunting set ups would provide the comfort needed for lots of guys to check out the IBO shoots and then maybe stick around and shoot other classes as they evolve. Just trying to get people involved.


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

the targets have scoring rings on them...that is why it is called target archery...why dont ppl just come out and shoot? who gives a hoot if someone beats you...

but there are to many classes already


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

flintcreek6412 said:


> I appreciate the feedback. Some of you guys are still thinking too much like target archers and not like hunters. Yes, I compete in 3d and understand that it's target archery. What I am trying to do is relay things I've heard from hunters that keep them away from IBO events so that maybe accomodations could be made to welcome them.
> 
> As far as back tension...I figured that would stir some. Yes, I understand all releases can be used in such a manner and that you can hunt with them. But I bet less than 1% of all hunters use a true BT release. Yet I would bet that 20% or more hunters use sliders that are illegal in the HC. About 50% of hunters I know use them but it may be a regional thing. Since BT is allowed in HC, should we also allow sliders style sights?
> 
> ...



I think I understand what you are trying to do, but the people you are trying to get involved arent going to, take time off work, travel 5 hours, spend the night, pay 50.00 to shoot plus another 50 to join the ibo. I dont think that the IBO needs this class. What needs to happen is the clubs on the local levels create a class to attract these guys and not worry about it being IBO sanctioned. Get them to the local stuff, get them addicted then worry about the IBO


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## cptleo1 (May 30, 2007)

The problem with organized 3D, is it is too organized.

Too many people take it way to serious.

I chuckle at the OP, There are too many rules now for the average guy to have fun and participate.

So lets make more rules, that will make them come !

Sort of sounds like Mr Obama is on the rules committee.

And then the guys that responded, not this rule but that rule - rubbish !!!!

More rules means less average Joe's participate, kind of simple.

You are never ever going to get the average guy to have his butt kicked in a tournament and convince him he will have a warm fuzzy feeling from the experience, just ain't gonna happen !

How about we look at how to make 3D a rewarding experience.

How about we teach, instead of beat up on our fellow archers.

Have your organized shoot, let those that enjoy that, do their thing.

How about when the rounds are through for the day we have a happy hour kind of thing, shoot what ever you want from whatever stake you want.

Keep score - optional, skip a target you don't like, no problem, No real rules just shoot.

How about this for stretching the envelope, have the good guys who would normally trying to kick your butt, leave their bows behind for happy hour and just walk the course offering help any where they could.

I wouldn't want to compete against D Cousins, but I would bust my vest buttons to have him spend 5 minutes with my grandson (I know that is an extreme example, but, it makes my point).

Folks, you grow this or any other sport by giving back to those coming up behind us, not by kicking their butts.

Give the participants a patch or a pin or something for participating AND a warm fuzzy feeling.

Trust me, in that gaggle of duffers and hackers there is the next Tiger Woods of archery, just waiting for one of the good guys offer a helping hand.

Seems to me there used to be a saying, "Archers, helping archers"

You are just not going to get much of that in a tournament environment.

And, yes I know this will never happen and that's a shame.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

*Agree*



cptleo1 said:


> The problem with organized 3D, is it is too organized.
> 
> Too many people take it way to serious.
> 
> ...


I like your attitude, it has to start on the Local level, I try to reach each person, one Hunter at a time here in the shop. When they can go to a shoot and meet new people they have a great time.

We even try to make our last shoot of the year a Bowhunter Challenge, ONLY HUNTING BOWS.


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

well as a President of our local club and have been involved in putting on local shoots for 20 some years there is a few things that i would like to say. from my experience the first step to getting these guys out is the local pro shops. if the person that runs that encourages the folks he is doing business with to get out and try this out and see how fun it is then thats the first big step. our local club has few rules when it comes to hunter class shooters. all you got to have is a 12" stabilizer and fixed pins and thats it. we dont care if your fletching is 1" or 5" or if your arrows points screw in or if you even have points at all lol. now i do think it is time for the IBO to get with the times. the fletching rule and the screw in point rule both need done away with. it offers no advantage. they also need to incorporate the use of range finders or some kind of marked yardage shooting in the tournaments. we dont need any other classes we need to simplify what we have. i think the hunter class should be bring whatever you want to shoot rangefinder or not have at it. i also think this class should be have any awards handed out at all. we have an advanced hunter class or mbr which i think we could combine and make one class. the hunter class is our bread and butter to make or break our shoots so its up to us to keep this class going and try to improve it however we can.


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

jre4192 said:


> What class should they shoot in? Not sure if you've checked but the IBO is broken into equipment based classes. So if I show up with a 12 inch stabilizer and fixed pins it doesnt matter if I've shot 6 days or 60 years, HC is the class I fit best in. Cant complain about guys shooting in the class they are given. It also doesnt matter if there was one class for adult males or 50 each one of them would be won by the guys that put in the most time and effort making themselves better. Nothing bothers me more than the guys that dust off their bows shoot them 3 or 4 times a year and expect to go to an IBO shoot and compete.


yeah i know the rules! point said THE CLASS was suppose to bring in average joe intio the ibo< yeah your average deer hunter> it wasnt meant for guys shooting 30 up sorry! no wonder new guys dont want to shoot!
















.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

Deer Slayer I said:


> yeah i know the rules! point said THE CLASS was suppose to bring in average joe intio the ibo< yeah your average deer hunter> it wasnt meant for guys shooting 30 up sorry! no wonder new guys dont want to shoot!
> 
> 
> 
> I get it, so instead of working harder to get better, just create a new class so you can win? Your average deer hunter is never going to compete at a national level archery tournament. I dont care how many classes there are. Like I stated later in this thread if you read it. The guys that win are the ones that spend the most time behind their bows. Your average deer hunter should not expect to compete with guys that shoot 5-7 days a week and a 3d tournament every weekend. Wanna make it like t-ball everyone gets a trophy for showing up and no one keeps score?


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## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

A person can either come out and have some fun or set at home and make up excuses as to why they won't shoot in a competition. 3D is a competition no matter how you slice it. If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

This is all the classes that need be !

Female/Male
Open Pro
Open Amateur

Male/Female
Hunter Pro
Hunter Amateur

Male/Female
Young Adult
Youth
Cub

No more classes are needed! Every 3D course should be regulated by these classes and all courses should have to use the same targets! Rules have to be universal to grow the sport! I am going to play golf this weekend and guess what if I play golf in WV or California all that will be different is the course unlike 3D archery every range has different rules different classes and all kinds of mixed up targets! 3D archery needs one universal rule book for all competitors and courses to follow. I know people will say some courses will close not enough money but that will be only at first and the more people follow one set of rules the sport will grow at a rate that it has never seen. To many classes and to many different sets of rules... Change is hard but it will have to happen if this sport wants to grow and get the reconigition it deserves!!!!


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## nowheels (Mar 28, 2009)

Most of your hunters don't come to shoots because they don't want to wait in in line to shoot. 5 to 6 hours to shoot a course is stupid. I B O should drop the two minute rule. HC has become a spot shooters game anyway. At 35 yard max. yardage doesn't really make much difference. They should lose the 35 yard stake and make a 45 second shoot rule.


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## hoytxcutter (Sep 1, 2003)

nowheels said:


> Most of your hunters don't come to shoots because they don't want to wait in in line to shoot. 5 to 6 hours to shoot a course is stupid. I B O should drop the two minute rule. HC has become a spot shooters game anyway. At 35 yard max. yardage doesn't really make much difference. They should lose the 35 yard stake and make a 45 second shoot rule.


Most hunters don't come because it easier to set around and tell every one how good they are rather come out and embarrass themselves.If yardage doesn't make a difference then get off the porch and give it a try. Any archery competition is a spot shoot.


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## Glock17 (Dec 23, 2004)

Amen brother..........



hoytxcutter said:


> Most hunters don't come because it easier to set around and tell every one how good they are rather come out and embarrass themselves.If yardage doesn't make a difference then get off the porch and give it a try. Any archery competition is a spot shoot.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

cenochs said:


> This is all the classes that need be !
> 
> Female/Male
> Open Pro
> ...


You need fingers and traditional classes.


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## ltheis (Mar 31, 2005)

On of the shoots in our area is competitive only on Saturday and "competitive/fun" on Sunday. Most of the hard core guys come on Satuday, and Sunday you see more hunters and new guys with range finders and stuff. This works well for us, keeping both groups pleased.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

nowheels said:


> Most of your hunters don't come to shoots because they don't want to wait in in line to shoot. 5 to 6 hours to shoot a course is stupid. I B O should drop the two minute rule. HC has become a spot shooters game anyway. At 35 yard max. yardage doesn't really make much difference. They should lose the 35 yard stake and make a 45 second shoot rule.




Ken it doesnt matter if the time limit is 30 seconds or 5 minutes. Who enforces it?


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

The tone of many of these answers is the exact reason the IBO will remain stagnant. It is unfortunate indeed. How hard is it for some of you target snobs to understand that lots of people just like to shoot archery and could care less about competition? I go to the Triple Crown events not because I am there to compete....I go to have fun. I'm a 380-400 HC shooter. That's just fine with me. I kills lots of deer. I have no interest in putting in the time or effort to become a contender for a top spot. Archery is not my life. I enjoy it but am not comsumed by it as some of you obviously are.

When I go to a Triple Crown event I look at it as though I'm going to play Augusta or Pebble Beach. Where else can I go shoot a course with brand new targets, difficult terrain, a few vendors and lots of fun on a roadtrip with my buddies? I play golf but certainly don't expect to win the Masters. I do it for fun. Lots of guys roadtrip for hog hunts, Cabela's shopping sprees and even golf packages. They WILL spend the money if made welcome. For the vast majority, it's about going to have fun, not the competition. Let's face it, the same old 3d courses just get old after a while.

You guys that go to compete and try to win, good for you. I hope you get that plaque or trophy that strokes your ego. But why can't you make room for guys to come and shoot with the equipment they have? You say a slider sight can shoot MBO...sure they can. But they won't if they will risk losing an arrow having guess a range at 50yrds. And they certainly won't enjoy standing around waiting on guys to shoot in that class.

I guess the IBO is flush in cash. If just 20 guys in the entire country shoot a new class that's IBO dues for 20 guys....think that $600. That's about $700 that goes into a Triple Crown host clubs pocket(before IBO $ is pulled). That's not too bad a deal for basically no effort.

If you tell a hunter that he can't play the way he hunts, you are right, he won't play. There is a reason more hunting bows than target bows are produced...But go ahead and keep excluding them and the IBO will stay just as it is with the same good ole boys playing, a few hunters dabble for a season then leave not to return. I've seen it year after year.

Since some are so hung up on rules, maybe at Bedford next year I'll organize about 50 of my hunting buddies to show up and shoot MBO where their equipment qualifies. They will dump the range finger for a stop watch and inject themselves into every group and make certain you are playing by the same rules they are:darkbeer: You'll be able to recognize them from their equipment and the smiles on their faces...because they will be having fun shooting foam. Not scoring it 11,10,8,5 but instead K,W...Kill or Wound:darkbeer:


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

flintcreek6412 said:


> The tone of many of these answers is the exact reason the IBO will remain stagnant. It is unfortunate indeed. How hard is it for some of you target snobs to understand that lots of people just like to shoot archery and could care less about competition? I go to the Triple Crown events not because I am there to compete....I go to have fun. I'm a 380-400 HC shooter. That's just fine with me. I kills lots of deer. I have no interest in putting in the time or effort to become a contender for a top spot. Archery is not my life. I enjoy it but am not comsumed by it as some of you obviously are.
> 
> When I go to a Triple Crown event I look at it as though I'm going to play Augusta or Pebble Beach. Where else can I go shoot a course with brand new targets, difficult terrain, a few vendors and lots of fun on a roadtrip with my buddies? I play golf but certainly don't expect to win the Masters. I do it for fun. Lots of guys roadtrip for hog hunts, Cabela's shopping sprees and even golf packages. They WILL spend the money if made welcome. For the vast majority, it's about going to have fun, not the competition. Let's face it, the same old 3d courses just get old after a while.
> 
> ...


Ok, now I'm confused. You basically want a shoot what you want where you want class where scores dont matter?


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

jre4192 said:


> Ok, now I'm confused. You basically want a shoot what you want where you want class where scores dont matter?


You can do that on the Bowhunter Defense course at all of the IBO shoots for only $10 for the whole weekend.

Problem solved. What's next?


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

jre4192 said:


> Ok, now I'm confused. You basically want a shoot what you want where you want class where scores dont matter?


That part was a joke...


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

jre4192 said:


> I think I understand what you are trying to do, but the people you are trying to get involved arent going to, take time off work, travel 5 hours, spend the night, pay 50.00 to shoot plus another 50 to join the ibo. I dont think that the IBO needs this class. What needs to happen is the clubs on the local levels create a class to attract these guys and not worry about it being IBO sanctioned. Get them to the local stuff, get them addicted then worry about the IBO


Very well said.


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## mr.nock (May 26, 2010)

*Cry baby cry*

This is a competition like it or not. So dont cry if it is to rough


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

mr.nock said:


> This is a competition like it or not. So dont cry if it is to rough


Yea, I don't know how this keyboard is still working with tears dripping off it on a regular basis. But thanks for the contructive comments. FYI, I think you misspelled your screen name and mixed up the "c" with an "n"........


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

no more ahc mbr or hunter if you shoot over 400 in hunter class out you go move on it was suppose to br a novice class


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## clydejr8 (Aug 23, 2005)

*IBO hunter class*

I no longer shoot hunter class, I moved up to AHC and now shoot MBO. The only problem with hunter class or with the IBO is there needs to me a mandatory move up list in hunter class. Most average guys don't want to come and get creamed by some guy who shoots 30 up. The top ten in hunter class at the end of the IBO tripple crown should have to move out each year and not be able to move back down to that class. HC should be a starting point. IBO don't need more class. We just need to make hunter class a starting point not a place for the average joe to get his tail wipped. People want to come enjoy themselve and feel like they have a chance.


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## swinestalker (Oct 28, 2009)

The speed limit keeps more people in my area away than anything else.:darkbeer:


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## $dabucks (Mar 1, 2008)

Deer Slayer I said:


> the hunter class in ibo WAS suppose to bring people into the sport of archery. what happened was a bunch of guys dropped down to that class to win saomething. give me a break a break shooting 430s indoor world 420s outdoor bottom line class wasnt meant for those guys they should be ashamed!


Couldn't agree more. I shot Sporting Clays for years and loved it because as I got better I moved up in class and then got competitive in that class as moved up again.

I would highly encourage the IBo to pick up a copy of the NSCA's rules and eliminate most of that stuff.

Maybe it is as simple as having the top 5% in a "major" tournament move up.


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## ramboarhunter (Jun 5, 2006)

*hunter class*

Make the arrow weigh a min. of 7 Grains per lb of DW with a max speed of 260 FPS. Screw in points of at least 85 grains. Let them use slider sights but no glass of any kind. NO STOOLS. A bow mounted quiver or a hip quiver. 1 minute to shoot the arrow and no more than 3 minutes to get to the target and score it.
Maybe then you could shoot a 30 target course in less than 3 hrs.


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## outdoorsdad4 (Feb 23, 2010)

Ok, I'm confussed, isn't 3D suppose to simulate hunting situations? Isn't that why ALL the targets look like game animals? So why should the HUNTERS class elimnate any equipment that a HUNTER would use on any other day in the woods.The rangefinder is the only piece of equipment that I would agree with not allowing, simply because I think all good hunters should be able to accurately judge yardage. JMO


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## Launch (Jan 12, 2010)

Just curious what do you guys/gals think of a an IBO class that would be a long distance class? something with a max around 90-100 yards. I just started shooting IBO this year and really had a great time; however, I would personally like the challenge of longer shots weather it would be known or unknown distances. just curious to see what you all think


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## meat58d (Apr 23, 2010)

My two cents:
I think, the HC that the IBO has, is perfect in it's intent, but flawed in its reality.

Bear with me.....
The class is defined as an entry level class, and the rules are set for entry level folks. Some discouragement that I have felt and noticed however, are the people that shoot it are anything but "entry level". I don't know how anyone would ever control entry into the class, but there are people who used to shoot open class who are shooting HC. I mean really? How the hell is that fair for the people who really are "entry level" people. Maybe a Hunter Class A,B,C type deal would fix some of that; I haven't been doing this long enough to know the right answer, but HC needs to be "entry level" and people need to treat it as such. I moved up to AHC this year because I feel that after shooting HC for a couple of years, it was time to cut the apron strings and move back a little. I plan to shoot MBR during the next tournament season and have shot all the local shoots this season at that stake. I feel that people should not be allowed to "hang out" in HC year after year either. I think people are to concerned about themselves and winning and not concerned enough about promoting the sport we love. "Bubba" should be able to grab his bow out of his truck that he bought on line at Bass Pro and go out and shoot and be competitive in a class that is labeled "Entry Level HC". 
Just my two cents


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## recil brown (Jan 29, 2006)

Look at it this way. At this years World Championship 379 shooters shot in FHC,HF,HC, and SHC class. 350 shot in MBO,MBR,Semi-Pro,FBO, and FBR. It looks like more shooters like it the way it is! You say shooters are in the hunter class to win money. At the world those 379 Hunter shooters paid $26,530 in entry fees, and were not paid one cent!!


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## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

fletchunter said:


> probably a dumb question but, why does the hunter class have to have screw in field points?


for starters I dont' think anyone is going to shoot a deer with glue in points like nibs. Just like practicing for deer hunting you practice with the same weight field points or practice points before switching to broad heads. hence the rule.

Also: 
if you want to make it a real hunter class, why not allow hunters to blow the hell out of range targets with real broad heads, use their rangefinders, maybe come in and scout out the course the day before as if they were checking out their favorite hunting spot.. Maybe even put up a few tree stands.after all it is "hunter" class? how real do you want to make it.

people complaining about going to triple crown or worlds in hunter class... That is the pinnacle of competition... of course it is going to be tough.And I guarantee that most of those guys also hunt. and probably take alot of deer. I saw a thread once where a guy bashed levi morgan(pmr).. That dude hunts alot. People get sore because they want to pull their bow out once before hunting season and beat everyone.

Want to have a fun class? simple.. Have a class just for fun, let everyone sign up, and shoot. when they are done put their cards in a box. and just pull a winner out of the box. give them a plack done. Novelty class! score doesnt matter. 
All the classes are very hard. My only arguement is if you finish in the top 3 you should have to move up.. it isn't fair for someone to dominate a class year after year, when there are good shooters that are trying to move up the ranks. This year I heard alot of stories about semi-pro shooters dropping down into MBO-MBR-and AHC money classes. I dont think that is fair. the guys who shoot lights out time in and time out should be either in pro or semi pro.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

In comparison.......I've played golf all my life. The PGA has rules and regulations etc. 14 clubs in a bag, no more......but little else for the everyday golfer. Someone mentioned courses everywhere.....why, because the average Joe can go out and have alot of fun without rules all over the place. Can you imagine...Your club is too long, the head too big, you have to hit from the yellow marker, NO rangefinder, you can't hit the ball with that club, your club must be no more than 20grs per inch and if you swing faster than 90 mpr you can't play. The club head must have an insert so the head can screw in. the grip can only be 12 inches long. IBO and ASA go on and on and I know they know a bunch more than i do and I don't even pretend to have the whys and hows that need to be, but I think myself, and like I say, my advice is worth nothing at all.......that there should be something for the beginners to attract them to 3-D. Beginners want nothing to do with these controlled shoots. Its mainly for the old pros and those that have been shooting most of their lives. Just my humble opinion and I'm being facetious I know but hoping something will come up to help archery to grow.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

outdoorsdad4 said:


> Ok, I'm confussed, isn't 3D suppose to simulate hunting situations? Isn't that why ALL the targets look like game animals? So why should the HUNTERS class elimnate any equipment that a HUNTER would use on any other day in the woods.The rangefinder is the only piece of equipment that I would agree with not allowing, simply because I think all good hunters should be able to accurately judge yardage. JMO


I have no idea how many hunters use range finders but from what I've read in the archery mags, most and I mean MOST pick out certain spots, a bush, a tree or something, use their range finders, and put them in their memory banks so that when a deer shows up they know almost to the yd how far away that deer is. I say allow it in a class all its own....a true Hunters Class.


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## Bird Dogg (Aug 18, 2009)

*hunter*

also: most clubs Hunter stake is only 30-35 yards.. compared to pro stake up to 50 or more. Nobody said anyone had to keep score at your local range. If your just going for fun, why keep score at all? Or is it fun to keep score, until someont beats you? there has been a few times where some of my friends just shoot the course, not take score, or if they do, dont hand in their cards.

If your going to take a shot at a big deer in the woods, im sure there wont' always be time or opportunity to hit him with a range finder before making the shot.

the best thing to do on your local course is to double check with your rangefinder (after) your shot. you want to get used to shooting different yardage, bring your rangefinder but use it after your shot to see if you were right.


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