# LH spin wings



## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

If you offset RH spinwings to the right you will direct the air into the underside of the "curve", which increases the drag.

If you offset LH spinwings to the left you will direct the air into the underside of the "curve", which increases the drag.

Spinwings are usually installed either "straight" or one of the above offsets. - John


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Incorrect. 
There will be absolutely no difference in drag. 
Once turning, the angle of attack to the air is virtually zero. 
There is no aerodynamic lift inducing component to the fletches and the only difference to the induced drag will be made by the frontal area exposed to the direction of flight. 
And as the majority of the fletches are in turbulent flow anyway, there's not much in it. 
Spinwing claims are over rated and have never been proven. (Because they can't be)
Ignore left / right hand fletches. They're a marketting idea.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

jhinaz said:


> If you offset RH spinwings to the right you will direct the air into the underside of the "curve", which increases the drag.
> 
> If you offset LH spinwings to the left you will direct the air into the underside of the "curve", which increases the drag.
> 
> Spinwings are usually installed either "straight" or one of the above offsets. - John


As above, though to clarify for a LH spinwing the front of the vane goes left (anti-clockwise) looking along the arrow with the nock towards you. Spinwings have a built in offset so no requirement to offset them - put them on straight.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Whiz that's a load of crap 

There's a 3 - 4" height difference between straight and 2 degree offset on 1.75" spinwings at 70m out of my 40 lbs. recurve. Left hand spin wings for a lefty are very important so that the vane clears the flipper wire on poor shots. If you use right hand vanes the curve goes inward and touches the flipper causing misses to almost the blue ring at 70m.

Lastcall21, if you are trying to put them on straight, just make sure that you don't have one vane slightly angled opposite the other two on a given arrow. This causes them to corkscrew. Most people including Butch and Vic tend to put them on straight or ever so tiny an offset so the air catches on the concave side of the curl. This way they have the least drag and then do their thing when the wind blows or you have a poor release and the arrow is starts off skiwampus 

Cheers,
Pete


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

listen to pete he knows what he's talking about


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## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

arrow1347 said:


> listen to pete he knows what he's talking about


I agree!!


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Ah yes, the old "spinwings start turning quicker syndrome" combined with "left hand fletches"

If you've ever seen just how much an arrow rotates about the longitudinal axis in the distance of a few inches, between coming off the string and clearing the shelf, you might not care to attribute clearance problems to rotational issues. Even if you bothered working out the distance required for one rotation based on the mean angle of attack of the vanes, you'll quickly work out that it's not much even when the arrow reaches optimum rotational velocity for its airspeed. And that doesn't happen right off the string, so it's even LESS rotation 
Anyone else indexes their nocks for minor interference issues. 

Not all that is claimed about spinwings is true. It's just a matter of time before that is demonstrated.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

isn't it amazing that the only people that think spinwings are superior are the people shooting them?

all of the other archers happily shooting fletches seem to be shooting, as opposed to replacing spinwings.


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## Giuliano (Oct 30, 2005)

caspian said:


> isn't it amazing that the only people that think spinwings are superior are the people shooting them?
> 
> all of the other archers happily shooting fletches seem to be shooting, as opposed to replacing spinwings.


Life is not so simply, as a matter of fact there are people even trying to improve the concept of the spin wings see the attached link
http://www.elivanes.com/inglese.html
Ciao


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Giuliano said:


> Life is not so simply, as a matter of fact there are people even trying to improve the concept of the spin wings see the attached link
> http://www.elivanes.com/inglese.html
> Ciao


Photo comparison


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

PS distance unknown but looks short. How much the difference in fletching positions affects the hit height unknown.


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## zaphod2002 (Dec 18, 2010)

Joe T said:


> Photo comparison


Maybe it is just me, but those groups look about the same. Adjust the sight and both of those are money groups.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

This thread has nothing to do with what is better or how much the arrow spins. Simple question on offset, that whizzed on screwed up into some bashing about their performance and that left and right doesn't matter.

Having the correct hand vanes for the hand of the archer gives over 1/2" greater clearance at the rest. This has nothing to do with the spin of the arrows as they don't spin at all by the time they pass the rest.

Zaphod2002, the point of the discussion is the offset of the vane and/or slight differences in vane profile make significant differences in impact point. Not to stress over applying them, but to be consistant between vanes on an arrow and batches has some import as to where they go on the target face.

Cheers,
Pete


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## zaphod2002 (Dec 18, 2010)

I see the difference now. Just reading to learn something here and you have clarified what I was looking at. Thanks.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

In a previous thread where Rick McKinney had made the comment that most of the record setting performances in the last 20 years have been with spin wings, there was the following post - if true, it's (for me) a compelling nod toward spin wings. 

"Not to steal this thread, but I was intrigued buy your conversion to Spin Wing Vanes. At this years outdoor Nationals the pros&cons of spin vs straight vanes was subject of conversation by the 60+ guys. Doc,David Brandfass, told of a test Easton had done, shooting 100 arrows fletched with spins Vs. 100 fletched with straight vanes, using a shooting machine @ 70M. The spins averaged 9.8, while the straights averaged 8.3. "

Here's the thread ... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=813260&highlight=spin+wing+records


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## lastcall21 (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanks c3hammer...makes sense to me now. 

i did a couple of arrows for my son, and he claimed they flew better than the other arrows he had. groupings were closer.
He was shooting carbon impact super club 30/40 with straight vanes, and now he will be shooting Victory Vforce with left spin wings.
He shoots Hoyt Helix LH with 36# limbs.

Who knew that an offset question would stir up so many other comments!


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

lastcall21 said:


> Thanks c3hammer...makes sense to me now.
> 
> Who knew that an offset question would stir up so many other comments!


Just seems to be the nature of things, all posts seem to get "stirred up". Nice to see you posting again Pete.

Fritz


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

c3hammer said:


> This thread has nothing to do with what is better or how much the arrow spins. Simple question on offset, that whizzed on screwed up into some bashing about their performance and that left and


Oh gee. Have a sook about things and call me names. Nice way to back up your scientific bent with a little tantrum. 
I'll back up what I say by pointing out again, directly that you have absolutely failed to confirm your statement AND there is NO, publically accessable or assessable, reliable information or experimentation that proves that spinwings are better in any way, shape or form OR that left or right hand spinwings are anything other than a marketting exercise for the gullible. 

Get all the old timers around and point out to them that all fita records are held by accurate arrows that come from compounds. How many of them used spinwings?


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Responses were from a couple of actual Olympians (Glenn and references to Rick McK's opinions) and a couple of serious lefties (C3Hammer and Barry W - arrow1347). And there are a decent number of records FITA recurve records held by spinnies or Kurlys - scientifically backed or not, a lot of actual users seem to like them, and I don't think they saw any big sponsorship bucks. Also, it seems to me that when viewing arrows from the nock end, the open side of the spinwing provides extra clearance to the rest since it curls away from the rest's arm. 

"Back up your scientific bent with a little tantrum" "Get all the old timers around and point out to them that all fita records are held by accurate arrows that come from compounds. How many of them used spinwings?" Funny how WhizOz was looking for evidence that top shooters were using Border limbs on another recent thread, before he would believe thay were any good, but records and numbers of top shooters using spinnies doesn't seem to be enough. Give him science. 

Saying that few compounders use them is pretty much beside the point - none of the compound records were shot with a finger tab, either. (Actually, Kurly Vanes has a few sponsored pros using their vanes. Initially, I think we were told that SpinWing vanes shouldn't be used on bows of less than 40# or on compounds, but that doesn't seem to be the case.)

Yes, some of the commenters were "old timers" but they do know a few things and have tested them, apparently. Sorry about all the rain in Australia, but that doesn't account for your sarcastic comments and "I know it all" attitude. Make your reasoned arguments without calling everyone else stupid, and then walk away.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I wasn't looking to prove that border limbs were any good. I was pointing out that nobody at the top seems to think that they offer any advantages. There is a significant difference. 
What you have failed to notice is that there is a large public opinion about spinwings, that is backed up by public opinion and not actual tested fact. 
There is NOTHING that suggests that they're better. When all the best recurve shooters use spinwings, that just means that for some reason, they use them. Regardless of if they get shot with a tab or not. 
If you're controlling for tabs, then how does the shooting machine anecdote mean anything? People are incredibly influenced by what they believe. 
Nobody has ever done proper testing, yet everyone believes it. All explanations for clearance apply to other fletches too, or do people believe that variability in fletch dimensions during the release for clearance somehow don't affect consistency in flight characteristics. 

All evidence for left and right hand fletchings AND spingwing superiority is untested with proper regimes to removing the archer bias. 
Pointing out the of scores held with spinwings used by recurvers means that I can point out the superior scores of archers with compounds using vanes. Two observations that directly contradict each other without some other handy explanation. The explanation of "forgiveness" which can be defined as either a magical quality of a flexible piece of plastic to have a beneficial non linear response to random elements, ie the tab introduces some randomising element that the spingwings compensate for. 

Try verifying this and anyone with any experience in testing would start to run away. 
Yet if public opinion will constantly follow the human predisposition for only considering the evidence that supports what it wants to believe, then of course someone will make up an excuse for it. 

Everyone is full of stories about people, organisations or dominant countries doing this or that testing. Nobody can ever show if it is anything past just fantasy that doesn't have huge problems. 
Every single supportive comment or anecdote about spinwing superiority or directional advantage is able to be disassembled by looking for the known issues which skew results. 
They're always there. 
Show me something convincing to change my mind. I'd like to believe it one way or another. Pointing out a lot of opinions that were gained with a prior disposition proves nothing. The entire educated world believed that the Earth was the center of the solar system too. You can't call what you're giving me science when your argument is being proved doubtful by established psychology and sheer lack of reproducible evidence. Opinion doesn't cut it in the real world that actually requires evidence, but the archery community seems to value it as good enough. 
And when it comes down to it, that opinion is so varied on so many things, it probably indicates that a large proportion of it makes no discernable real difference. 
This neatly encapsulates everything to do with spinwings.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Rick McKinney's testimony (and reference to Darrel Pace's concurring opinion) and subsequent performance (without a positive "prior disposition") is compelling - to me, anyway - "evidence." Willie Mays' opinion and explanation about how to "play centerfield" or "read pitchers" also might not rise to someone else's level of scientific evidence, but I'm gonna listen to the Say Hey Kid, anyway, and try to follow his advice. The "proof", as they say, is in the pudding.

from http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=813260&highlight=spin+wing+heart

Spin Wing Testing
Rick McKinney has offered to discuss Spin Wing testing, how he has gone about it and how others have taught him. Here is the post that led me to start this thread:
Viper1 I have been thinking about some of the comments on this thread and how if you try something and it does not work, then we (me included) comment on how bad it is or it doesn’t work well for most, etc. Many people do not quite understand what another person is saying with absolute certainty unless you spend time to figure out exactly what is said, just as we have discussed here. I will use an example from my past if you all will indulge me for a moment of reminiscing.

Years ago, Darrell Pace was one of the first to shoot Spin Wing vanes and claimed they were the best. I figured I would try them and found them to be lacking without a doubt. My groups opened up and so I figured the only reason Darrell was using them was because he was being sponsored by Range-O-Matic, the makers of the Spin Wing vane. I voiced this opinion to those who asked why I did not use the Spin Wings. Anyway, I received a call from the son-in-law of the owner of Range-O-Matic. He was a USAT team member and asked me why I did not like the vanes. I told him that they did not group well and I got better results with my “Miro-vanes(sp)” made by Shig Honda. He asked me if I wouldn’t mind trying them again at the next training camp and he would set them up. As my ego was fuming from this “insult”, after all who does he think he is telling me I don’t know what I am doing? Well, needless to say, I told him that sure, if he was willing to spend the time and effort I would try them but I had my doubts and told him so. It was more to confirm to him that they did not work for me. Well, when we were at the next camp I gave him 9 arrows and said have fun and walked away. He had to clean off the fletchings and then he fletched me up with some Spin Wings. I looked at them once he was finished and told him I doubt that they would work and sure enough they grouped horribly! I looked at him and smiled. He said, “Don’t worry, I have a few things to try before we find what will work for you.” So he took the arrows and stripped them down and refletched them again with a different placement and angle. An hour or so later, he gave me the arrows again. I shot them and my heart skipped a beat! They grouped REALLY good at 50 meters. Well, then I thought, I have three other distances to try before I got too excited. Needless to say, they grouped exceptionally well! As I swallowed my pride and looked a bit sheepish at him, I asked him what he did to make them work. He told me how to test the fletchings and figure out what will work and what will not work. I was so thankful that I let him talk me into trying them again. A few months later at the World Target Championships I set a new 70 meter world record on the third day and going on to win the Individual title. It is a wonderful feeling shooting the best score ever at a very stressful event. I feel that the Spin Wings gave me just a bit more edge on my shooting and never would have had that opportunity if it wasn’t for giving it another try. What was even more humbling was that all the Soviet men were in line to shake my hand right after I set the world record. The US archers came up to me after words and asked what that was all about. I had to grin.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

So, what this says is that spinwings shouldn't be trusted to have a universal ability to be better, because even before they worked anywhere near properly, they had to tweaked by someone with experience to know what to do. Being that no other lineal forces are in play that can be attributed to fletching, it doesn't take much to attribute the difference to the amount of spin put on the arrow. Too little and any imbalances in the forces will be given a much longer time duration and vector to show an imbalance in. Spin your shafts too much.... Anyone ever spun an arrow that otherwise appears to be dead straight, to the point that it vibrates? 
Stick your best quality arrows on your arrow straightener, or between your pinched fingernail edges for support. Blow off center on the fletches to make that nice turbine sound and spin them up fast. 

Go through your entire twelve and see if you've got some that start vibrating earlier than others. Just snap spinning some shafts between your fingers will show that some you can make vibrate, others you can't. This happens with bare shafts with points in them to give them a bit of momentum. They test as dead straight. They vibrate at different speeds. 
Yet nobody seems to bother about experimenting with offset angle to find that happy medium that seems to make the arrows work the best. 

Have a look a the number of professional sportspeople in the USA that wear titanium necklaces and power balance bands. They'll swear blind that they work, but when they can't tell if they're wearing them or not, fail to pick them as doing something 50 percent of the time.


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