# Holding Drills?



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I just copied/pasted this from another thread and added a bit more because this isn't talked about much... Yes we hear "just do it" and the like and how well some can do it, but for those that struggle with their hold... well? 

_*Trust me when I tell you I know the academic subject matter as well as anyone. I've done thousands of reps on the short bale. I've tried the both ends of focus, etc., etc. While my shooting is half way decent, even quite good at times, I still can't hold like I hear it can be done. So, what really separates the truly great one's from the "good" shooters? I believe it's the ability to hold, and if you can hold steady enough you can get away with whatever method you choose, you can think about whichever end you want... or as Jacob said, just screw off until the shot breaks (or something along those lines). So... a tip of the hat to those that can hold that pin, I certainly have never been able to be that steady. To top it off the more I try the worst it gets. So, I've had to take a different route. What I have found that works best for me is to pay no attention to the movement, focus on the X, and think myself through my shot process. *_

My question is this: Are there any drills that anyone has found successful to improve one's hold? I'm all ears. If you are one that can hold within the 10 ring of a Vegas I'd like to hear from you. 

Have you always been able to hold well?
If not, what did you do to improve your hold?

Let's put this right up front, I'm not interested in hearing any theory on this at all. If you can't consistently hold within the 10 ring on a Vegas face or the X on a five spot then just sit back and learn something. No debates, no flaming, no pissing contests. Please.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Direct answers;



EPLC said:


> Have you always been able to hold well?


No. But I do now. 




EPLC said:


> If not, what did you do to improve your hold?


(1)Shot thousands of arrows at a 3.5" dot @ 70-90 yards.
(2)Became really confident with the connection between the "let go" and the "hold" by shooting thousands of arrows at a dot but off the dot.
(3)Removed the "pin" and replaced it with a ring. I no longer notice movement if it's there, (unless one of the lines of the ring passes over the x, then it's time to re-evaluate.)
(4)You won't like this one....I have the best or equal to the best rods in the business and know how to weight them. 

Simple, to the point. No discussion. It's what I do. At 56 I believe I have as solid of hold as anyone of any age now, getting better every day. 

Hope this helps.


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

The solid steady hold is the thing all the top shots have in common. Stand behind some of the top shooters and line yourself up so you can see their dot in their scope and watch how little movement there is. I believe that is just something you are born with.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

I think you might be looking at this in reverse. A steady hold to me is the result of getting your form and equipment right. Take the pro that holds steady with his rig and give him someone elses and the steadiness will not be there.

What your scope setup will make a difference too. If you are shooting a tiny dot with the sight fully extended your perceived movement will be bigger which will cause stress which will cause more movement which will cause more stress ect....

I switched scopes (we had the same sight) with a buddy who was using a tiny dot. I couldn't get that thing off fast enough. Looked like a little flea dancing all over the target. I didn't even shoot just let her down.

I have about 30% of my shots I call smirkers. I have done everything perfect and while pulling and relaxing I know with 100% certainty that the arrow will be pinwheeled and I can't help but smirk a little at full draw.. Shot breaks and it is dead center. This used to happen about as often as a bigfoot sighting but these shots are obviously what I am trying to replicate. I mean my other shots still feel good but these are on a different level of good (my little taste of the banana lol)

I imagine the pro's are shooting shots that feel like that 90% of the time or more. Not sure just guessing.

So I really try to pay attention to any little thing that happens on those shots to try to get that 30% to 40% then to 50% ect...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

rn3 said:


> The solid steady hold is the thing all the top shots have in common. Stand behind some of the top shooters and line yourself up so you can see their dot in their scope and watch how little movement there is. I believe that is just something you are born with.


Yes, been there done that. I was at the NFAA Outdoor Nationals on the practice field standing directly behind Braden G. He was shooting at a goose animal target from 40 yards. Here wasn't shooting at the scoring rings, he was shooting at the goose's eye. His first shot was a tad to the right of the eye. I'm thinking that was pretty impressive. But then what does he do? He adjusts his sight... click, click! Bingo, next shot right in the eye. Needless to say I was impressed. 

Now, that said, I'm sure we all have opinions and the like about how or what these guy's are doing. Let's keep this clean, no opinions, no theory, just the experience please. Now if someone posts something that you would like to ask about, feel free. I think if we stick to this we'll have a real store of information that could be very helpful. Thanks.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> .
> 1)Have you always been able to hold well?
> 
> 2)If not, what did you do to improve your hold?
> ...


Well, guess I'll just watch another DVD because with use of my 4X lens my .019" diameter pin won't fit within the Vegas 10 ring or 5 spot X ring.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I'm getting knocked out of Dial up. Winds blasting in sub zero weather. Tried to post to show intent....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Again, fast. Intent of post is holding, not holding within the 10 or X....

No, I've never just held well.

Practiced until I dropped. More of finding what worked for me...

Not a spot shooter, but had some help along the way. The biggest leap, trust in my shot. field14 got me going, Eyes closed.
Rare is it for me to...dedicate myself to spots. I promised Mark I'd give the Slick Shot the best I could. I believe I gave it my all, two bows and at least 20 shots each, good for at least 398/400.....


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

.


EPLC said:


> Let's put this right up front, I'm not interested in hearing any theory on this at all. If you can't consistently hold within the 10 ring on a Vegas face or the X on a five spot then just sit back and learn something. No debates, no flaming, no pissing contests. Please.


This must be what your needing. 





Most of the best coaches can't hold it in the 10 ring but they can teach "most" how to process a good shot.


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## jaydub (May 16, 2008)

If everyone held inside the x, everyone would shoot a clean round. My p.o.i is always right where the pin was when the release broke. I may not be adding anything useful to your quest, but I don't think anyone can hold on the x, shot after shot.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

jaydub said:


> If everyone held inside the x, everyone would shoot a clean round. My p.o.i is always right where the pin was when the release broke. I may not be adding anything useful to your quest, but I don't think anyone can hold on the x, shot after shot.


Well, there are those that say they can, and I've seen the evidence. Would like to hear from as many as we can.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, 53 seconds of waste....Still, seeing clearly....


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

if you aren't consciously aiming the time is better spent in other aspects than bringing dot movement to a minimum... atleast not to the same degree that someone whom consciously aims would find acceptable. To get my hold to where it is now (floating on or in big 10 at 18m and 50m) I worked the following: 1)stiffest bars i could get (at the time); very stiff, very light, and weighted down with a good deal of weight. 2) high holding weight and a very positive shot. 3) very fine adjustments to DL (half twist adjustment to string length) 4) small dot that will fade out into an established hole 5)mastery and committal of my shot to a non cognitive state


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly, most times, people don't realize how small an adjustment to their draw length that needs to be done, to change their hold. most times they "change right past it", when looking for that last little bit of steadiness.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Here's an interesting video. Two of the world's best... Reo is showing quite a bit of movement, yet they are going in the 10. Some nice slo-mo of the release. Interesting that reo's release rotates backwards from what you'd think it should. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmDnU6LIfUE#t=397


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

The first video by Reo reminds me of an old Steve Martin routine on "How to make a million dollars." He starts, "First you get a million dollars." Reo's humor is a bit like Steve Martin's. I know this didn't really add anything, but I can't hold in the x either.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't know what you see, but I see it rotating the right way, both times they show a close up.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

ron w said:


> I don't know what you see, but I see it rotating the right way, both times they show a close up.


x2.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well I have a little drill that I do sometimes, I haven't done it in a few months but I really do like it. I come to anchor and I do the religious thing where you touch the top then the bottom then left then right of your chest but I do it on the vegas 10 ring with my pin. This is a totally conscious effort and I totally use my aiming muscles to do it and for me it allows me to feel my pin moving across the x and then my muscles basically put on the brakes treating the 10 line as a force field that won't let me though. 

I suggest that you guys try this because there are three distinct things that you are going to notice:

1. The effortless start of the pin moving in a certain direction, there just doesn't have to be a push or tension given to the pin. It just starts going.

2. The small amount of momentum that you feel as the pin moves across the x

3. The brakes that your system puts on the pin as it reaches the edge of the 10 ring.

To me this is a conscious drill and this is so important to do it this way because it allows you to feel the pin moving and coming to a stop and changing directions, it allows you to nail down what a conscious effort really feels like when floating so that when you decide to do things subconsciously you can avoid the little mental things that are conscious efforts to control the pin. This drill allows you to set up your boundary which for me is the line of the 10 ring that I want to stay inside.

Now in this drill I do the the religious pattern of 12 o'clock then 6 o'clock then 9 o'clock then 3 o'clock kind of as my warm up for about 5 let downs and then I will come to full draw another 5 times and I go from 3 to 9, 3 to 9, 3 to 9, 3 to 9 over and over for 10 seconds and let down and then I will do 12 to 6, 12 to 6, 12 to 6, 12 to 6 for 10 seconds. At this point I have done right at 15 let downs and I am sick of letting down so now I am going to shoot about 10 shots but I go back and do the religious pattern and the moment I get it done I allow myself to sub consciously float and I run my engine and shoot the target. 

I wish I did this little aiming drill more often, every time I do it I feel like I get something good from it but like most of us I get stuck working on firing engine stuff most of the time and I skip aiming drills.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

When you're looking at getting your best hold you're looking at the smaller add on details or advancing through the details you're already into. Like, using the right muscles. Having the right body alignment and skeletal alignment. Tweaking and tweaking and fine tuning draw length down to the 1/16 or 1/32. Bow's draw length. Your loop length. Working on bars. Working on weights. Angles. Working on your routine and set up. Working on getting as much tension out of the bow hand as you can. Then working on the mental aspect. Being confident in your shot and the process for finding your hold. And then learning to not stress about that hold and just run your shot. And also, not being afraid to try things. If you're unhappy with what you have and think it could be better, find out. Because that little gremlin in the back of your mind will haunt you and keep you from your best. Change one thing at a time and document what happens. Work to the point of no return on gains then go back to the best setting. 

I'm of the belief that the top shooters don't hold quite as still as everyone thinks. I've seen Reo moving around a lot and still get an X. The difference is that the top shooters have a shot routine and a trust in what they've done. Think about that last part. The trust part. Sounds like confidence to me. And when you look at the top performers in anything. The ones good at their jobs even. What do they all have. Confidence. Top shooters know it is there job to perform. And they know they've done what they need to for the job. So they just do.

Try it the next time you shoot or tune. Say, I have gotten myself to the best of my abilities and I can put down a good round. I can put down a good shot. And go do it. Don't think about the negatives or the what if's. Just go up to the line with your bow like you own the ten ring and get it. You might be surprised. When you miss for some reason. Fix it. How many times have you seen Reo miss a shot and just put a scowl on his face. Move the sight. Then nail the x ring. He's not losing confidence and digressing, he's proactively attacking the problem to fix it and beat it. Confidence.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> Well I have a little drill that I do sometimes, I haven't done it in a few months but I really do like it. I come to anchor and I do the religious thing where you touch the top then the bottom then left then right of your chest but I do it on the vegas 10 ring with my pin. This is a totally conscious effort and I totally use my aiming muscles to do it and for me it allows me to feel my pin moving across the x and then my muscles basically put on the brakes treating the 10 line as a force field that won't let me though.
> 
> I suggest that you guys try this because there are three distinct things that you are going to notice:
> 
> ...


So, you are saying that you have the cognitive control to: not only hold within the 10, but even finer control within the X? Hey, If I had anywhere that kind of motion control I wouldn't have started this thread  as I'd be on Archery TV competing with Reo. Seriously, you have that kind of cognitive control?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't have good enough eyesight to see the baby x in a vegas target even with my 4x lens but I can see the 10 ring on a vegas and a 5 spot ring and x, My float pattern is good enough to stay within a vegas 10 ring with a .19 pin when am having a normal good day. I am shooting with a big pin right now that fills up a entire vegas 10 ring and so I can't see how small my float is like I can when I shoot a normal .19 pin. I did take my 3d bow into the shop a week ago and shoot it a little bit and I was reminded of being able to see my float and was reminded of why guys shoot these bigger dots because it dampens how much you are seeing.

Last winter when I really started shooting good for the first time seeing a few hundred 5-x's in a row from time to time I was only shooting my 3d bow with the .19 pin, I was setting it on 23 or 22.5 yards and floating on the 6 o'clock spot of the 10 ring and allowing my arrow to hit a half inch above in the vegas baby x. My pin basically had a small float left and right of the location well within the boundaries of the 3 and 9 o'clock positions.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Why is a guy like me not a pro shooter, because I do not have a pro mind when it comes to the thousands of little decisions that they make all the time that eliminate very subtle mistakes. Even when I was at missouri state as a ball player I was a much better hitter than most of the guys there including Billy Muller who is the hitting coach for the Cardinals now. He won the world series with the red sox and was a all american and is now the hitting coach, I could hit harder and longer and more consistant line drives to all fields and my team would stop and watch me take batting practice sometimes because I would be hitting rockets off the walls over and over but there is something about Billy mentally that makes him special and I simply don't have it. It isn't that I am less intelligent or that I don't have the current knowledge, it is the fact that billy sees the simple little things instantly and he can react to them correctly every stinking time. I see those same things but my mental processing of them happens after the short fraction of a second that I could have benefitted, Billy would have reacted perfectly. 

Right now I feel like I am at the same point in archery that I was in at Missouri State as a baseball player, I am very good and positive that I am going to make it to that next level and become special. I have confidence in myself that I am going to continue to get mentally stronger and close the gap between me and the pro shooters, some of these pro shooters come by their mental abilities naturally like Billy Mueller and they get to have instant success at a younger age like Bridger Deaton. That doesn't mean that Bridger Deaton hasn't worked hard and earned the success that he has but obviously he is a guy that his mind is on track and a pro quality decision making machine.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Great topic for this forum.

Separating the good shots from the bad is the first step in getting there. As mentioned above, when you see it the first time, you know it can be done again. You just have to figure out what it was you had right on that shot. That’s the biggest learning curve if discovered in this whole process. Learning how to get that hold more often. 

I am more of the fix it on the fly type of shooter. I won’t allow myself to rely on the “perfect” balance, weight, draw length, etc., etc., because I feel if one of those things doesn’t feel right three ends in during a competition, it will plague my brain, destroying my focus ability for the remainder of the shoot. I have found the ability to make slight form adjustments more advantageous. It may be a little more pull, less pull, or more or less palm pressure. I know that goes against nearly everything that is preached here and elsewhere daily. Most people agree that you need to be robotic. I won’t argue with that. If you can do it, it definitely would give the best consistency.

One thing that I’ve noticed is variation in holding ability from one day to the next. Heck, even from the beginning of a game to the middle. I’m usually stronger at the start, which makes sense, and usually hold much better than later on. I have learned how to deal with it a few different ways. 

First, I KNOW I can get it to hold. Can’t give up when you start to lose it, and just start flinging arrows. Let down and think about what the sight picture is telling you. Check the obvious first. Bow arm, shoulder down, pulling into it, etc. Then draw and see if you fix the issue with the easy stuff. Most of the time this does it. If I shoot two or three more shots and it is still borderline, (excessive movement, but still in the ten) I know I need to fix something. I’ve learned from trying different things, how to make a quick adjustment that will get it there without causing panic. It could be something as simple as when I start getting an arc motion in the bottom of the ten, encroaching the nine and it won’t settle, I can throw another ounce on the back bar and go two clicks down on the sight. When it starts to sag later on and doesn’t want to move, I may pull that ounce back off. By then, my arm is getting tired and the movement is less, so it settles easier with less weight. The ticket is to remember that it will hold if you get it right, and have enough discipline to get the good hold before you try to execute the shot. (I have been working on that)

Second, practice holding it with no intention of shooting. I know you’ve heard it a thousand times here already, but the let down drill is the best way to teach yourself to hold the dot in the middle. It takes away all of the pressure of missing the shot, and lets you see the sight picture and yes, focus on it. It’s there that you can experiment with things to find ways to improve your hold. The trick is, you have to do it correctly, and be honest with yourself. Hold it as long as you can, and then wait. Let your arms rest before drawing back again. 

Everyone may have a different approach to getting there, but this is basically mine. I will be honest, It doesn’t hold perfect every time, but it is getting better every week as I become more confident in my ability and better disciplined. The inside out tens are in the low to mid 20s now and the 300s are coming more and more often. Take it for what you will, but if you want to be able to hold it in the middle, you definitely have to believe that it is possible.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Billy Mueller is a year younger than me so I was a second year player when he showed up to missouri state, I gave him some rides to practice because he didn't have a car and he was a walk on player not on scholarship. I remember him being a weak small kid and he seemed to know the game but he had no power and couldn't hit the ball to the warning track, he played decent defense but nothing special over the other guys. In the spring season I was playing and starting half or so of the games and Billy was sitting on the bench getting little to no playing time but at Murry State some seniors that were starters got in trouble for something in the motel rooms and the next day Billy got to start at third base. We were half way done with the season about 25 games into it and the little sucker batted a little over 400 for the season and was a freshman all american with out hitting one stinking ball hard, every stinking one of them was a dink or roller. Just watching him for the first time playing third and hitting so poorly and finding a way to be special was something you had to see to believe.

I can remember watching the Giants one day by luck because it was the day that their Third baseman Matt Williams hurt his knee and had to leave the game, Billy had been lucky and had been called up from AAA and was on the bench and this was his luck break into the big leagues. I think he had a 10 year career and won the batting title one year and the world series with the red sox at third base. The thing about billy is that he had a pro quality mind before he had the skill set to compliment his mental abilities, then as he grew up and added some muscle mass when he was about 21 years old as a senior he was then able to start showing off how strong of a player he could really be. I am the opposite kind of guy, I always find a way to rise to a high level physically when it comes to hitting and shooting and kicking balls and stuff but I don't have the little things mentally to allow me to really shine.

Did I mention that i haven't given up, I refuse to believe that I am not going to get better mentally and that is why I love archery. When I finished my eligibility in college my baseball career basically ended when I was 21 and there really is no option for you. Archery is a life long sport where you can train at home and get in a car and show up and pay a hundred bucks and shoot next to the best in the world.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, he is so confident in his conscious control of sight management, that when he misses small, he knows that he was holding "on", so he just gives the sight a couple clicks.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> So, you are saying that you have the cognitive control to: not only hold within the 10, but even finer control within the X? Hey, If I had anywhere that kind of motion control I wouldn't have started this thread  as I'd be on Archery TV competing with Reo. Seriously, you have that kind of cognitive control?


To give you an idea of my sight picture, it's something like this:

Holding inside the ten is figurative.  My dot more than covers it. If the bottom of my dot (the orange shown below is touching the nine line, the arrow is out of the ten. If I can see even a sliver of yellow underneath it, it will cut the line. If it is a heavy yellow band around my dot, even if not perfect, it is an X every time. If I can get it to hold there, it's easy.

The bigger dot slows down percievable movement and is much easier to center. I know some pro shooters that nearly cover the yellow completely for even finer control of the halo.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The pro shooters like Reo really are that good, I have never shot with reo or jesse because I dont go to the fita type stuff. I have shot next to Levi morgan and chance at the asa practice bags and I have watched both of them shooting at 50 yards at the little 1.25 inch black dots on the bag targets. They hit them every stinking time over and over and you will see them reach up and put a single windage click in the sight and the next shot will be dead freaking center in the little black dot.

For me personally I am starting to see that at 40 yards, I can hit a 12 ring almost every time on normal days and on a good day they are solid and not just touching and if my bow is on the edge of them I can put a click in the sight and move it over to the center.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

EPLC said:


> Here's an interesting video. Two of the world's best... Reo is showing quite a bit of movement, yet they are going in the 10.


Totally spot on. I think we've all saw top shooters shoot an important shot with lots of movement and it hit the x. But you are on the right track EPLC to try to refine your steadiness rather than just accept it. 

Also, Reo shot an 8 on one of those shots.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been going through a natural progression of shrinking my group size over the last four years, what is cool is back in 2009 and 2010 I shot my first 5-spot rounds at my local range by myself and I shot a 300 49x and a 300 50x one week and I thought I was awesome. I taped them up on the wall right where we stand to shoot and then in late 2010 and early 2011 I shot a 300 54x with a hinge and put it up, I also have my first 59x and a couple of my 60x rounds taped up that I was proud of.

What is cool about those targets is they are a record of how my grouping has tightened up over these years because even the 60x rounds are a stinking mess and they look like a shot gun blast of random holes in and on the outer edge of the x. None of them have distinct holes starting to develop in any of the spots. In fact on one of my ugliest 60x rounds that isn't taped up I had 20 shots that were on the outer edge just barely line licking, I have no stinking idea how that 60x round happened a couple years ago. I remember shooting it and struggling and I just forced my pin to stay in there and I was having trouble firing my release but I just suffered through it and was exausted when I finished it.

This has been a big leap year for me because now I am forming a distinct hole in almost every spot that I shoot at and I am learning how to control the development of the hole so that it doesn't push me to the edge of the 10 ring. Executing perfect shots over and over has been the key and yeah I had to have one and then try to duplicate it but after tens of thousands of shots you start getting a feel for your perfect shot and it becomes normal.

I call this getting on top of your game, when you are just starting to try and execute a perfect shot you have trouble even doing it one time and then duplicating it is virtually impossible. After time you get to where you can do 20 or so of them during a scoring round and then you just keep working until you are only having maybe one or so poor executions per round. That is where I am at right now, I am hoping that I can totally eliminate the need to produce one poor execution per round and I can't wait for it to happen.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> Totally spot on. I think we've all saw top shooters shoot an important shot with lots of movement and it hit the x. But you are on the right track EPLC to try to refine your steadiness rather than just accept it.
> 
> Also, Reo shot an 8 on one of those shots.


Exactly ^^^

I know I’ve had many of those shots where the dot is swinging and bouncing, or circling around the nine ring and magically, the arrow goes right in the middle. I don’t know how it got there but it did. A few of them even put me in the money. But I’ve also had those ones that I was sure were still a ten that missed the line by a 1/16”. The ones that hold solid are no question. They always go in the center.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Yes, been there done that. I was at the NFAA Outdoor Nationals on the practice field standing directly behind Braden G. He was shooting at a goose animal target from 40 yards. Here wasn't shooting at the scoring rings, he was shooting at the goose's eye. His first shot was a tad to the right of the eye. I'm thinking that was pretty impressive. But then what does he do? He adjusts his sight... click, click! Bingo, next shot right in the eye. Needless to say I was impressed.


Impressive, yes, but I've seen the same thing a few times, done it myself. Shirland, Illinois at the M.A.C., Midwest Archery Championship, 3D. This person took tiny corner of sheet of paper and stuck it on the 40 yard target butt. He drilled it and then slapped the first arrow with the first, catch the edge of tiny piece of paper. Monticello, Illinois and again the 40 yard target butt. Some where shooting at this red thumb tack. I gave it a go. My pin set for center I adjusted I believe 2 or so clicks so I could see the thumb tack. Hit it with my first shot. Banner, Illinois, the shop I use to work at. We use to shoot for drinks (soda pop). On the practice wall we'd take felt marker and just dab the tip to make a dot barely able to see from 20 yards. If I remember correctly I adjusted 3 clicks so I could see the 1/8 or 3/16" black dot. I won my share of drinks. It's stacking. Picture of how it is, pin under the hole, 25 yards or 30 yards. Can't remember who was there at the time...Bob, maybe.

In 3D we don't have a center to stay in. That we can't always see the point zone we learn where it's at. We have binoculars and can see the arrow of the person (s) arrow is closest or in the bonus ring. We are human. We are sometimes drawn to a object. Hoyt Pro Staff shooter I can't remember. I was shooting with him at Galesburg, Illinois. I was still new or young to 3D and he saw how I was shooting, getting drawn to a arrow and hitting low. He advised; When in doubt or thing you might be drawn to a arrow set you sight a little "hot." Hot meaning some of like the target is 35 yards, shoot it for 36. So if drawn to the arrow you'll hit with the arrow. If you're not drawn to the arrow you might shoot a tad high and still get the bonus ring.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

To better illustrate my site picture, I decided to add some details.
This is really close to what I see with a 1/8” red dot on a 4X lens with my 29” draw length and AX3000 set in the #5 position. 1/16” hole in my peep. #4 spot is what I was referring to before with a larger dot. I’ve used one before when I couldn’t hold as well as I do now. I am considering trying one again. The X and ten rings showing are for illustration to show where they are in relation to my actual dot that covers them both. The solid black dot in the center represents the arrow hole when the shot is fired with a perfect release.

#1 spot – Near perfect center. A good release is an X with a 2712. Even a fair amount of movement as long as the edge of the ten is never exposed is still going to produce an X.

#2 – A sliver of yellow. This is where the brain wants to find a quick, easy way to get the dot to the middle, often resulting in pushing it out the top, or what I like to call the “bump and fire”, when you try to give it a nudge, and time the release. That usually never ends well. This is also subsequently where the dang thing wants to freeze and hold perfectly still 90% of the time. That, or as shown in spot #3. Sometimes the difference between the two is indiscernible when it is moving a lot. Those are the ones to let down without question. I have discovered that if it holds good anywhere around the circle showing a sliver like that, I can focus on my release (oops, did I say focus?), and get the ten, sometimes even catch the X line. Sometimes a ten is good enough. Those who have put their time in on the line when it counts, know what I’m talking about. This scenario requires a good release to keep it in.

#3 – This is the problem child. I have shown this in the bottom, because as I understand it, this is the biggest hang up for most spot shooters, myself included. That stinkin dot will freeze right there, and a 300 ton crane wouldn’t help you move it up once you lock it down. That’s another problem for the gen pop discussions though, as this is mostly to show the POI with the dot moving that much around the circle. It could be high, low, right, or left. With a clean release and the movement slow and controlled, this being the maximum distance out of center, I will still get a lot of tens and even a few Xs. (because it is moving in and around the center) It comes with the misses too though. It is also when frustration sets in and concentration on a good release is lost. That adds more to the bad shot. Get out, let down, and start over. 

#4 – Smaller sliver. Same principle I use with my current dot. I would have to hold even better to keep it inside the nine ring, which in turn, would keep it tighter in the middle. I took off the one I used before because I couldn’t hold good enough and it had a similar effect as using a small pin. Too much visible movement. This also separates the spot shooters from the 3D guys. I would never use that big of a dot for 3D. It would cover most of the foam ten rings. It would only work for spots I think. For my set up, that is a 3/16” dot.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

I CAN HOLD STEADY IN THE X, 3 TIMES A WEEK I SHOOT SMALL DOTS ABOUT 27/64 JUST MAINTAINING CONCENTRATION. if you want to hold steady it takes practice , i know a lot of guys who shoot 7 day a week but spend no time practicing i practice every day i shoot


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

i start and finish every practice session with an abbreviated Vegas round i shoot till i miss an x or 30x. 
3 days a week i work on shooting dots,27/64 arrow diameter targets. finish with Vegas rd
two days i work on form and feel for the shot. this i do at ten yards leaving my pin set for 20 and use an 1/8th inch dot as my target, you dont worry about where the arrow hits you just want something clean to aim at and concentrate on the feel of the shot. shoot 60 arrows. this is better than plain blank bailing your mind is free to work. finish with a Vegas rd.
two other days i start with a Vegas then shoot a 60 shot 5 spot and back to a Vegas. 
i found that shooting the Vegas rds only till you miss works. its much more challenging i don't like missing doing this i am able to clean about 80% of the time. if your shooting good its good to shoot more arrows , not so good then fewer arrows this method helps develop good practice

closer to spring i start a little different program getting ready for field one drill i use 3 targets one at shoulder one at foot level and one 2 feet higher one over the other. first arrow center second bottom 3rd center forth high and 5th center all at 10 yards on 1/8 inch dots concentrating on form and feel.
the biggest thing is you have to practice at least 5 days preferably 7 
with practice, proper form and feel and timing you do not have to hold perfectly still to shoot perfect scores nobody does . every shot im able to hold in the x but there is still movement its called float. pros are able to float in the x
semi pros are generally hold their float to slightly outside the x and most decent shots hold their float to the yellow/ white


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

pwyrick said:


> The first video by Reo reminds me of an old Steve Martin routine on "How to make a million dollars." He starts, "First you get a million dollars." Reo's humor is a bit like Steve Martin's. I know this didn't really add anything, but I can't hold in the x either.


I took that video as a joke on his part. I hope it was.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Thanks to those that have shared their holding experiences and explanations and PM's. This has been a big help so far, I hope the sharing continues. 

I shot today and started out pretty shaky but I think I may have found the issue. Back in October I was shooting pretty good and even shot a personal best on a Vegas 450 round. Since then I've been too wrapped up in my float, trying to force the issue... As a result my shooting had regressed and I actually started getting a shake in my bow arm. Now I want to tell you any kind of shake in my system scares the crap out of me because of what I went through before, having to finally switch to lefty. Since I don't have another side to go to, naturally I was/am concerned. Hopefully I found the problem and the information contained in this thread has pointed me in the right direction. I had made some changes recently that I had to take a look at. Due to a sore shoulder I had backed off my bow to 40# and had tweaked the DL a tad to address the lower holding weight. I also made changes to my sighting reticle and just recently get rid of the clarifier peep. My bow weighed in at a tad over 8 pounds. I've also been working a new release and using a relaxed hand execution. 

Before I went out to the club I did the following:
I removed all the weight from my bars and started from scratch. I kept adding weight a little at a time to a point where it felt decent at short yardage.
I increased the draw weight, one turn at a time until the bow felt solid. This also tweaked the DL a little shorter.

When I got to the club my first several ends were pretty shaky. Then I remembered the recommendation to study the float. Even though my bow arm was kind of shaky I was hitting the X on a five spot pretty consistently. As I was shooting I was able to identify what was happening. I found that as I relaxed my release hand I also was also relaxing my back tension which resulted in loosing my dynamic tension which put me into a spot that my bow arm didn't like. I discovered that I had to force myself into the wall and keep the tension as I relaxed the thumb on the peg. This seemed to stop the shaking issue and I began shooting reasonably well. I continued studying the float and found it smoothing out quite a bit. Still I was getting some left/right impacts that didn't seem right. I added about 1 3/4 ounces to the back bar. The bow felt better but this did not resolve the L/R issue.

After reading cbrunson's posts I'm going to try a large dot tomorrow and see if that resolves the left/right impact issues. I'm betting it will. I know, I know, I made too many changes at once... but hey, I like to tinker


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I said it here somewhere, trust in your shot, but it's more, like trust you. field14 once noted there's a difference in blank bale and blind bale. Everyone chews on what they think is. Tom told the story of ??? shooting 5 spots with his eyes closed. The he told gave of him not believing it and lost the bet and then lost the same bet when he still didn't believe it. I'll tell you, you got to believe in yourself....trust in yourself...But it wasn't just trust. Closing my eyes...hairy for sure, but the more I shot the more I knew with my eyes closed there was nothing I could do (see), but shoot the shot. Within this, eyes closed, I could start feeling little things that...were off, not quite right. Even my peep wasn't right even though I had my eyes closed...that subtle difference of...executing the shot? That particular bow got tweaked more than any bow before or since. A twist here or there, too much and a half twist removed... The limbs were back off for the poundage I wanted. Cranked the limbs down and attacked the cables. I got close and tweaked the limb bolts.
So taking the eyes out of the equation gave more...feeling. That bow was not particular fast. Even new it would not make listed draw weight and I twisted cables to death. I can't ever remember a bow I could not get to listed draw weight. Even maybe a tad slower than I wanted, but it performed great in 3D. Switching to lighter arrows never seemed to change one thing as it still shot great.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

During my warm up shots today I went ahead and did about 6 let downs where I studied my float, I did the up down left right two times and then I did the left right left right one the other 4 times. I was surprised how much I hated actually manually controlling my float and it really felt weird. What I really liked about these six let down studies of my float is that it reminded me that I really have been shooting with my natural float and have not been controlling it at all.

I did have to do something weird though, I have never had to practice my float with a big dot before and it didn't work so what I did was just look at the vertical pin under the dot which is skinny and I was able to float from the left edge to the right edge of the 10 ring and actually do the drill.


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## md2bintn (Jul 14, 2014)

Some great stuff here! Hope to start applying it real soon as I finally got my new bow today.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I have a rule for myself that I also encourage my friends to follow. (They usually don't) hehe

If I change something other than an ounce or two on the bars, I have to shoot it for at least a month before changing it again.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> I have a rule for myself that I also encourage my friends to follow. (They usually don't) hehe
> 
> If I change something other than an ounce or two on the bars, I have to shoot it for at least a month before changing it again.


That right there is some of the best advice anyone will ever read on archery talk. I admittedly don't follow it to a T, kind of like today, I'm messing around with a lot of stuff just to see it's effect on things. By days end I'll either be back where I started or I'll have discovered something I want to make a commitment to for an extended period.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> That right there is some of the best advice anyone will ever read on archery talk. I admittedly don't follow it to a T, kind of like today, I'm messing around with a lot of stuff just to see it's effect on things. By days end I'll either be back where I started or I'll have discovered something I want to make a commitment to for an extended period.


I follow it. Especially with release settings or styles. There are those changes that instantly are a no go, but for the most part, getting a feel for what you have, and spending quality time with it, is very beneficial.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> I have a rule for myself that I also encourage my friends to follow. (They usually don't) hehe
> 
> If I change something other than an ounce or two on the bars, I have to shoot it for at least a month before changing it again.


Like Laz, I have to agree and then I'm not really steadfast. Doesn't take long to know something wrong, but one ounce...that takes some shooting...which I'm happily agreeable to do...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> I have a rule for myself that I also encourage my friends to follow. (They usually don't) hehe
> 
> If I change something other than an ounce or two on the bars, I have to shoot it for at least a month before changing it again.


While I agree with this being a solid rule when you are making changes to an existing setup that has been reasonably successful, there can be exceptions. All summer I shot a Supra ME that I followed this rule to a tee, but my current bow (A Supra Max) has never really performed like the ME... so I'm really starting from scratch as I have never really found the sweet spot on the Max. As mentioned, I've been playing with the bars and weights and think I'm at a point where I can work with the bow. 

This morning I changed to a very large dot (17/64") which I found easier to assess my float than the 5/8" hole was. As a result I've found that I really have to be hard into the wall on the back side while relaxing the frontend as best as I can. Bone to bone alignment is a must. I found that the 17/64" dot was a tad too big but still better to assess than was the giant hole. I didn't hang a new face so the 3X 30 was shot just after I had warmed up. There were several more like this one as I got more and more comfortable with the float. I only shot for about an hour and had nothing less than a 29 end, and only a few of those. I think I'm making progress and this thread is being very helpful along with the other info picked up along the way in this forum. Thanks to all that are contributing...

I'm going to cut back to 1/4" on the dot for tomorrow to see how that picture works out. BTW, plastic label tape is a great material for making dots. Comes in various colors, stays put and is easily removed without leaving residue on the lens.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

relaxing the front end, how? Not really following that part... Just looking for clarification more than anything...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

N7709K said:


> relaxing the front end, how? Not really following that part... Just looking for clarification more than anything...


Taking as much tension from the bow arm as possible = smoother float pattern. With good alignment, I can pull hard into the wall and use mostly bone to bone. Seems to float nicely like that. Before finding this I was loosing stability on the bow side.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Shot again this morning (20 yds.) for a short while with a smaller dot (7/32") but this picture didn't seem as smooth as the larger 17/64" dot. I shot 12 arrows, one at a time at one spot of a five spot and managed 10 X's (two were line breakers). Of the two misses the high flyer was just in the five. I've been getting these with the Supra on a consistent basis, I think it's the grip. I'm going to continue working the sight picture as I don't feel it's anywhere close yet. I may drop to a 4X without the clarifier and see what happens. In any case I think I'm climbing slowly out of this two month slump.


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## avzaid (Dec 13, 2014)

I don't know about everyone else, but it took me sometime to find out my perfect draw length and the stabilizers weight that keep my aim steady enough and the correct body form but I always go 6 o'clock until I realized few things that helped.

1) Breathing, before you aim take a deep breath.
2) Always come to the target from up and try to hold.
3) Don't anticipate your release, surprise release is the key to perfect score.
3) Relax your bow arm and make sure your anchor is always the same.
4) Shooting 10 arrows before any league helps restoring that muscle memory.
5) Make sure your feet are always the same position.
6) For 5 spots target don't aim zig zag, try to finish one column and move to the next one.
7) If you hold too long and you feel that you shaking, let off, take couple deep breath, let the blood circulate in your brain, and draw again, it is never too late to shoot.
8) Always scream with your self, (No mind just aim), this will keep your mind only focused on aiming.

I hope these tips help.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> I just copied/pasted this from another thread and added a bit more because this isn't talked about much... Yes we hear "just do it" and the like and how well some can do it, but for those that struggle with their hold... well?
> 
> _*Trust me when I tell you I know the academic subject matter as well as anyone. I've done thousands of reps on the short bale. I've tried the both ends of focus, etc., etc. While my shooting is half way decent, even quite good at times, I still can't hold like I hear it can be done. So, what really separates the truly great one's from the "good" shooters? I believe it's the ability to hold, and if you can hold steady enough you can get away with whatever method you choose, you can think about whichever end you want... or as Jacob said, just screw off until the shot breaks (or something along those lines). So... a tip of the hat to those that can hold that pin, I certainly have never been able to be that steady. To top it off the more I try the worst it gets. So, I've had to take a different route. What I have found that works best for me is to pay no attention to the movement, focus on the X, and think myself through my shot process. *_
> 
> ...


 again, you demand no "theory", and then set unrealistic, unanswerable qualifications to reply to your question.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> again, you demand no "theory", and then set unrealistic, unanswerable qualifications to reply to your question.


Ron, I asked for expert advise from those that "can" hold within the 10 ring. That is a reasonable request.


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