# Illegal Aliens?



## B-burg Archer

Mexicans illegal or otherwise have been leaving in droves since this passed, and it hasn't even taken effect yet. I call that more than a smokescreen.


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## [email protected]

Dmz! It works in korea


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## MM1354

I live in Arizona and I can tell you, just as B-Burg says, the Illegals are leaving Arizona in bunches, before the law becomes active. I like your idea of a big fence with guard towers. But, that means they would be crossing the Border somewhere else, like California, LOL. Which would soon change the song that California is currently singing. MM1354


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## sits in trees

B-burg Archer said:


> Mexicans illegal or otherwise have been leaving in droves since this passed, and it hasn't even taken effect yet. I call that more than a smokescreen.


leaving in droves, imagine that, can you prove that with something factual or is that just wishfull thinking?


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## MM1354

Just a quick sample of the local news in the state. There are several more if you google the subject. MM1354



Illegals Begin Leaving Arizona as New Law Approaches
Friday, February 08, 2008 
By William LaJeunesse 

AGIA PRIETA, Mexico — For the first time, Mexican officials in Arizona admit there is hard evidence illegal immigrants are preparing to leave the state because a new employer sanctions law is making it difficult, if not impossible, for them to keep a job.

Illegal immigrants are flooding the Mexican consulate in Phoenix for documents that will allow them to return to Mexico to enroll their children in school, the consul to Arizona, Carlos Flores Vizcarra, told FOX News. They are also requesting a document called "menaje de casa," which allows illegal immigrant families living in the U.S. to cross into Mexico without paying a tax on their furniture and personal belongings.

Vizcarra said 94 families asked the embassy for students transfer documents last month, compared to only three last year. He said several thousand immigrants asked for the tax document.

In a separate interview, Edmundo Hidalgo of the non-profit immigrant support group Chicanos Por La Causa, said 30,000 illegal immigrants said in a survey last week that they planned to leave Arizona sometime before March 1, when the state’s tough new employer sanctions law goes into effect. Under the law, employers can lose their business licenses if they hire undocumented workers.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has set up a hotline for citizens to report on employers who hire illegals. He has said enforcement will begin when the law goes into effect. Many deputies have also been given arrest authority by Customs and Border Protection to enforce federal immigration law. So in the course of a traffic stop, illegal immigrants without a driver's license could ultimately face deportation.

These factors, combined with a slowing economy, are forcing many undocumented workers to consider leaving Arizona. According to a study last year, 12 percent of Arizona’s workforce is in the U.S. illegally, the highest percentage in the nation.

At a immigrant shelter in Agua Prieta, Mexico, just south of the Arizona border, officials say illegal immigrants are leaving the Grand Canyon state because of the employer sanctions law.

In the last month, for every five immigrants trying to enter the U.S., four were crossing back in the other direction, said Rosa Soto Moreno, who runs a Catholic shelter that provides food and lodging for illegal immigrants.

Soto said illegal immigrants crossing back into Mexico is a new phenomenon, and she attributes it to the new law.

"Many of the supervisors are upset by the law, but have told their workers they have no choice," she said.


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## cptbrain

MM1354 said:


> Just a quick sample of the local news in the state. There are several more if you google the subject. MM1354
> 
> 
> 
> Illegals Begin Leaving Arizona as New Law Approaches
> Friday, February 08, 2008
> By William LaJeunesse
> 
> AGIA PRIETA, Mexico — For the first time, Mexican officials in Arizona admit there is hard evidence illegal immigrants are preparing to leave the state because a new employer sanctions law is making it difficult, if not impossible, for them to keep a job.
> 
> Illegal immigrants are flooding the Mexican consulate in Phoenix for documents that will allow them to return to Mexico to enroll their children in school, the consul to Arizona, Carlos Flores Vizcarra, told FOX News. They are also requesting a document called "menaje de casa," which allows illegal immigrant families living in the U.S. to cross into Mexico without paying a tax on their furniture and personal belongings.
> 
> Vizcarra said 94 families asked the embassy for students transfer documents last month, compared to only three last year. He said several thousand immigrants asked for the tax document.
> 
> In a separate interview, Edmundo Hidalgo of the non-profit immigrant support group Chicanos Por La Causa, said 30,000 illegal immigrants said in a survey last week that they planned to leave Arizona sometime before March 1, when the state’s tough new employer sanctions law goes into effect. Under the law, employers can lose their business licenses if they hire undocumented workers.
> 
> Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has set up a hotline for citizens to report on employers who hire illegals. He has said enforcement will begin when the law goes into effect. Many deputies have also been given arrest authority by Customs and Border Protection to enforce federal immigration law. So in the course of a traffic stop, illegal immigrants without a driver's license could ultimately face deportation.
> 
> These factors, combined with a slowing economy, are forcing many undocumented workers to consider leaving Arizona. According to a study last year, 12 percent of Arizona’s workforce is in the U.S. illegally, the highest percentage in the nation.
> 
> At a immigrant shelter in Agua Prieta, Mexico, just south of the Arizona border, officials say illegal immigrants are leaving the Grand Canyon state because of the employer sanctions law.
> 
> In the last month, for every five immigrants trying to enter the U.S., four were crossing back in the other direction, said Rosa Soto Moreno, who runs a Catholic shelter that provides food and lodging for illegal immigrants.
> 
> Soto said illegal immigrants crossing back into Mexico is a new phenomenon, and she attributes it to the new law.
> 
> "Many of the supervisors are upset by the law, but have told their workers they have no choice," she said.


Good start!


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## sits in trees

it's in print and on google, then it's gotta be true:teeth: true some illegals have left due to the economy but laws have never had much of an effect on the types of people we have coming up from Mexico/South America. 
we will talk again in a year or 2 after our economy hopefully perks up again and then we will see what these laws will have accomplished for you and i'm pretty sure it will be like i said in the first place "SMOKE":mg:


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## hoytmonger

sits in trees said:


> it's in print and on google, then it's gotta be true:teeth: true some illegals have left due to the economy but laws have never had much of an effect on the types of people we have coming up from Mexico/South America.
> we will talk again in a year or 2 after our economy hopefully perks up again and then we will see what these laws will have accomplished for you and i'm pretty sure it will be like i said in the first place "SMOKE":mg:


Prince William County, Virginia has had a similar law in place for the past three years and the amount of illegals in that county has been reduced, as has the strain on public services. The laws work when enforced.


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## Curve1

The liberal Democrats want the votes from the illegal immigrants.....of course when have they been concerned about what's best for our nation.
Dont forget the Republicans had 8 years and did NOTHING about our borders.
Tom Tancredo got black-balled by his own party for speaking out .
We need to secure our borders....if for no other reason than National Security.


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## BigBirdVA

They're leaving. They had on TV a guy that owned a Taco shop and he said that since the law was passed sales were going down and he would not be able to stay in business at the rate it was going. 

Guess that also proves people in Arizona are tired of Taco's and Burritos.  I think a lot of others are tired of them too. I know I am.


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## Pine Tag

hoytmonger said:


> Prince William County, Virginia has had a similar law in place for the past three years and the amount of illegals in that county has been reduced, as has the strain on public services. The laws work when enforced.


This is very true. The PW county board of supervisors studied the effects over the last 3 years. One member did an interview and here are some of the statistics he gave: 38% decrease in crime (year-after-year), illegal immigrant hospital births (no insurance to cover costs) went from 500 down to 0, they estimated millions of $ in savings, and there is not one single legitimate racial profiling case. Sounds pretty effective to me.


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## badomen

Smoke screen or not something had to be done. The federal government will not build the wall and this is the fault of both parties. The arizona law is just enforcing an already existing federal law. So I call this a start... maybe instead of creating a military wall on our borders we could possibly just get rid of the incentives for illegals to come here in the first place? Getting rid of the anchor baby law would be another step in the right direction. Shut off the incentives and if the illegals that are currently here want to stay then they should have to go through the same procedures that all other LEGAL immigrants go through. Learn the language and learn to assimilate into america. Or maybe we could just go with the same immigration standards that Mexico has...? weird concept there, yet Caldarone comes over here and criticizes our laws on behalf of Obama??? Give me a break!!


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## sits in trees

i live in rural upstate NY, pickup trucks, guy's wearing camo, tractors, hunting is big here, but i went to my local Walmart yesterday about 30 mins away and i thought i was in some Latin American country, very overcrowded, no one spoke English including the people that worked there and they even had some generic Latin beat music playing over the PA system...i headed over to the food/candy section to get my weekly supply of gum and saw foods that were for the most part unidentifiable?
i got to the register and 2 females who were dressed like ladies of the night with tons of unidentifiable foods in there carts took forever to pay and then they grab all thier bags and walk right away leaving their carts blocking the whole line "RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF US"!!!!!!
hopped back into my truck and in a quick 30 mins i was back in the states:teeth:


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## MM1354

Sits in trees: Gee"s, I feel for you. I live in rural Northern Arizona an it isn't even that bad at our local Wally world. I do see a lot of Latino's shopping here but, the store doesn't cater to them anymore than anyone else. The area that I live in has large amounts of gunsmiths because we need and use them, this area has one of the largest numbers of licensed automatic weapons in the country. We believe in our 2nd amendment rights here and use them and everyone knows it. We don't have much in the way of home burglaries out here, except inside the city limits. Burglarize a home in my neighborhood and it could be a fatal mistake from several directions, LOL. MM1354


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## eaglecaps

Adios amigos!!!!


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## Curve1

I believe racism is wrong....I dont believe in that sort of thinking.
But, having said that, Arizona is simply enforcing the law. If you are here ellegally [what ever nationality you may be], you should be thrown out.
The Democrats want amnesty because they _want the votes_, and the Republicans had their chance to do something but did _nothing._

The _Constitution Party _is the only party I see with the right perspective on ellegal aliens.


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## UCNYbowhunter

Sits you have a E-mail :darkbeer: :mg:.Did you ever make the Friends of the NRA event?My oldest daughter got to shoot the Tommy gun.You will like the E-mail goes along with this thread and the money it would save


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## MM1354

No Problem Here.
The latest telephone poll taken by the Arizona Governor's office asked
whether people who live in Arizona think illegal immigration is a serious
problem?
29% responded, "Yes, it is a serious problem."
71% responded, "No es una problema seriosa"


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## rick64

Looks like some other states are getting behind AZ
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100715/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_states
Glad to see VA is one of them.


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## DullTip

Curious to how many of you guys have a tresspassing problem in your hunting grounds? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLl76oN2V5o&feature=related



And folks wonder why we worked so hard to get a policy that the G&F will not cite us if we have a side arm for self defence on us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZoOKBEggI&feature=related


And then we have this for our wildlife to feed on. 










Mind you I have no problem with those that enter our country legally. I work side by side with many folks from all over the world. They followed the process and pay taxed just like you and I. The funny part they are some of the most angry folks I know when it comes to illegal entry to our country.


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## DullTip

I should add that the group Hunters Who Care puts on a two clean up's a year. In two days they fill two 20ft x 8ft tall roll off dumpsters and usually have a few 20ft flatbeds and countless beds of pickup trucks overflowing with trashbags. 

Next time you visit a local landfill, stand about 100yds from the trash, now close your eyes for 30 seconds. Take a moment and picture you just walked over a hill to your favorite hunting grounds. Open your eyes and taadaa... Ya... we have many places that look just like that out in our National Forest down here. I about cried the first time I went on a clean up. Sick to my stomach and had about every emotion I could feel sweep past me in 10 seconds. It's life changing if you're passionate about wildlife, hunting heritage and our National resources.


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## Curve1

Not only are illegal immigrants breaking the law........it's not right to those that go through the _proper channles and all the processing _to come here to our country *legally.*


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## highwaynorth

sits in trees said:


> i live in rural upstate NY, pickup trucks, guy's wearing camo, tractors, hunting is big here, but i went to my local Walmart yesterday about 30 mins away and i thought i was in some Latin American country, very overcrowded, no one spoke English including the people that worked there and they even had some generic Latin beat music playing over the PA system...i headed over to the food/candy section to get my weekly supply of gum and saw foods that were for the most part unidentifiable?
> i got to the register and 2 females who were dressed like ladies of the night with tons of unidentifiable foods in there carts took forever to pay and then they grab all thier bags and walk right away leaving their carts blocking the whole line "RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF US"!!!!!!
> hopped back into my truck and in a quick 30 mins i was back in the states:teeth:


All the illegals (undocumented democrats) will be coming to a sanctuary near you, like NYC because Democrats love them. They need to import more fools to vote for them.


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## rattus58

sits in trees said:


> theres been alot of hoopla about Gov Brewer of Arizona puttin the hammer down on Illegal Aliens...you have 1/2 or more of the country yelling YEA, YEA!! and a smaller portion crying that we are becoming some nazi type gov, big smoke screen from what i'm seeing.
> 
> well here's my take on this whole thing folks, Gov Brewer is doing little more than blowing smoke up our arse's, pulling over people in routine traffic stops and checking their papers isnt going to do a thing to stop the flood of illegals from coming in, do they honestly think we are that stupid, this is nothing more than a nutless symbolic gesture by the Arizona gov.
> 
> and what about the 12 million illegals we already have here?????????? did you ever for one minute think that niether side of our gov wants to stop these people from coming in, well thats what i'm thinking because the solution is so freakin simple and could have been put in place decades ago.
> 
> all you have to do is build a wall and man it with our military, thats right a 30 foot high fence/wall with a gaurd/snipers tower every couple hundred yards. it would take a couple years to construct and require probable 20 thousand or so American troops, and cost a mere fraction of what we are already spending in Afganistan..
> 
> is this idea impossible or undoable in any way or form, i really wanna know? or maybe our gov really wants keep these people coming by close to 1 million a year and not do a damn thing more than pull a few over here and there in routine traffic stops?? i know i'm not the only one out there thinking this am I??


No... all you have to do is have guard towers, nite vision goggles, a Barret 50 caliber and a marksman for cheap.

It is not about cost and Brewer is not about smoke up your ass either. It is about recognizing that you have a problem. Obama doesn't know or doesn't care about the illegal alien problem. Obama doesn't care about the jobs lost with the auto dealers. Obama doesn't care about the 140,000 jobs idled and even now if he reversed himself, the still over 45000 jobs now permanently lost in the gulf because of his INANE decisions.

If we are to secure our borders, we need to SECURE our borders and get serious about it. Obama has NO executive experience. He has never had to make payroll, make a decision, or create anything of commerce. They don't know how to create a job since they don't even know what a job is. Secure the border? How do you do that? He doesn't have an inkling of an idea about that.


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## markb317

just think, if they all go back to Mexico, there would be alot more jobs for the people of the U.S.A.. And the employers would raise the pay rate, no more cheap nontax paying illegals.. About time someone takes a stand for the U.S. workers.


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## rick64

This is a perfect example of why other states need to follow AZ lead! http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/2/illegal-immigrant-killed-nun-released-by-feds/ The feds just don't do their job, if they had that Nun would still be alive.

At least the VA Att. Gen. is stepping into the issue, glad I voted for him.
http://www.examiner.com/x-54956-Con...en-says-cops-can-check-for-immigration-status


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## Curve1

08/02/2010 
Arizona Sheriff: ‘Our Own Government Has Become Our Enemy’

by Penny Starr 
_www.CNSNews.com Pinal County (Ariz.) Sheriff Paul Babeu is hopping mad at the federal government. Babeu told CNSNews.com that rather than help law enforcement in Arizona stop the hundreds of thousands of people who come into the United States illegally, the federal government is targeting the state and its law enforcement personnel. “What’s very troubling is the fact that at a time when we in law enforcement and our state need help from the federal government, instead of sending help they put up billboard-size signs warning our citizens to stay out of the desert in my county because of dangerous drug and human smuggling and weapons and bandits and all these other things and then, behind that, they drag us into court with the ACLU,” Babeu said. The sheriff was referring to the law suits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union and the U.S. Department of Justice challenging the state’s new immigration law. “So who has partnered with the ACLU?” Babeu said in a telephone interview with CNSNews.com. “It’s the president and (Attorney General) Eric Holder himself. And that’s simply outrageous.” Last week, U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton placed a temporary injunction on portions of the bill that allowed law enforcement personnel during the course of a criminal investigation who have probable cause to think an individual is in the country illegally to check immigration status. The state of Arizona filed an appeal on Thursday with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. “Our own government has become our enemy and is taking us to court at a time when we need help,” Babeu said. Babeu and Sheriff Larry Dever of Cochise County Ariz., spoke by phone with CNSNews.com last week about the May 17 ACLU class-action lawsuit, which charges the law uses racial profiling and named the county attorneys and sheriffs in all 15 Arizona counties as defendants. The Department of Justice filed a lawsuit on July 6, charging the Arizona law preempted the federal government’s sole right to enforce immigration law. “If the president would do his job and secure the border; send 3,000 armed soldiers to the Arizona border and stop the illegal immigration and the drug smuggling and the violence, we wouldn’t even be in this position and where we’re forced to take matters into our own hands,” Babeu said. Dever said the federal government’s failure to secure the border and its current thwarting of Arizona’s effort to control illegal immigration within its borders has implications for the entire country. “The bigger picture is while what’s going on in Arizona is critically important, what comes out of this and happens here will affect our entire nation in terms of our ability to protect our citizenry from a very serious homeland security threat,” Dever said. “People who are coming across the border in my county aren’t staying there. They’re going everywhere USA and a lot of them are bad, bad people.” According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), about 250,000 people were detained in Arizona in the last 12 months for being in the country illegally. Babeu said that that number only reflects the number of people detained and that thousands more enter the country illegally each year. The CBP also reports that 17 percent of those detained already have a criminal record in the United States. Both Babeu and Dever said they want to remain involved in the legal battle over the law, which many experts predict will end up being decided by the U.S. Supreme Court. Dever has hired an independent attorney to represent him in the ACLU case and his attorney has already filed a motion of intervention in the DOJ lawsuit so the “(Dever) will have a seat at the table.” A Web site also has been launched by the non-profit, Iowa-based Legacy Foundation to raise money for the Babeu’s and Dever’s legal defense. Both men said they believe the outcome of the case has national significance.“For us, this is a public safety matter and a national security threat,” Babeu said. _


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## BigBirdVA

You've got it all wrong. All they need is a little compassion and an education. Guess who pays for the education? 

http://dreamact.info/


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## Curve1

Yeah, one thing is for sure....we've lost all common sense judgement on every angle of our goverment.
We're actually at the place in America where _what's right is wrong and what's wrong is right._


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## BigBirdVA

Curve1 said:


> Yeah, one thing is for sure....we've lost all common sense judgement on every angle of our goverment.
> We're actually at the place in America where _what's right is wrong and what's wrong is right._


If ever the phrase "The inmates are running the asylum" is appropriate it's today.


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## MarksExtra

sits in trees said:


> .
> 
> and what about the 12 million illegals we already have here?????????? did you ever for one minute think that niether side of our gov wants to stop these people from coming in, well thats what i'm thinking because the solution is so freakin simple and could have been put in place decades ago.
> 
> all you have to do is build a wall and man it with our military, thats right a 30 foot high fence/wall with a gaurd/snipers tower every couple hundred yards. it would take a couple years to construct and require probable 20 thousand or so American troops, and cost a mere fraction of what we are already spending in Afganistan..
> 
> is this idea impossible or undoable in any way or form, i really wanna know? or maybe our gov really wants keep these people coming by close to 1 million a year and not do a damn thing more than pull a few over here and there in routine traffic stops?? i know i'm not the only one out there thinking this am I??


Funny the op mentions this. The answer, of course, is that there already is a law on the books that allows for the contruction of a fence on our southern border. They just won't follow the law and actually build the fence. 

see this; it's great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5RPS_iTNiw 

or simply search "this is not a fence" on youtube.com

The whole situation makes me sick.


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## rattus58

A Guard Tower and a Barret might work....


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## Curve1

rattus58 said:


> A Guard Tower and a Barret might work....


Right on!
The problem is they know we're [Federal gov.] not serious. You cant do what needs to be done anymore.


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## need-a-bow

$1,000,000. The price on the head of a a U.S. Sherif, whom I wont mention for certain reasons. The bounty was set by the Sinaloa Cartel. Thats what happens when a man in power takes advantage. I think he wont last much more as sheriff.


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## hard huntin guy

really?? I think it just shows how EFFECTIVE he his. I say elect him as President! Hes one of the few people doing their jobs in our government! Illegal aliens ...are....*ILLEGAL!*
Do you think we tax payers should pay for them? for their health care? their education? their housing? the livelihood? GET REAL! LEGAL CITIZENS and TAX PAYERS are due those things, and ONLY if they TRULY need assistance...they are ENTITLED to it either!...not someone who just breaks our laws and enters our country illegally.

How about if someone comes into YOUR HOUSE ILLEGALLY?? are you going to let them stay? give them free housing? all the food they can eat? pay for their health care? even if they diont contribute any money for any of it????
I bet you would not...so DONT ASKK US TO EITHER!
I will pay for one thing for illegal aliens...the cost of their DEPORTATION!


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## hard huntin guy

even sadder is that you are obviously a LEFT WING PROPAGANDIST who just joined the site to make this ridiculous post! From your screen name...you obviously DONT EVEN HAVE A BOW! how much does ACORN, the SEIU or George Soros Center for American Progress pay you to spread your BS?

Over 72% of Americans..including many hispanics are dead set against illegal immigration. Most of us here are as well. Please take your propaganda elsewhere....


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## hard huntin guy

and how is he taking advantage?? by ENFORCING THE US FEDERAL LAW??? by doing his job?? He has been under federal investigation for over 18 months by this BS Department of Justice...(who under the current REGIME seem more intent in helping ILLEGALS rather then LAW ENFORCEMENT) ,..and they have found NOTHING that violates the law whatsoever in his actions...even though they are trying their hardest~!

I tell you what..I hunt all over the US including Texas. I hunt just outside DEL RIO texas...on a 10,000 acre ranch that is only 6 miles from the border. hundereds of illegals go thru every NITE! 
1.)the rancher had to put ladder type fence posts so Illegals could climb over or they cut his fences...letting his cattle out.
2.) He had to install faucets on his windmill water lines to his resovoirs...or they would cut his lines to drink...and the reservoirs would go dry...and his cattle die! 
3.) when we left the house we had to leave the door UNLOCKED every day or the illegals would just break in. When I asked how they knew when we left...he said they were WATCHING us! he would actually leaves burritos beans and nacho chips on the table. Sometimes when we got back we would find THEY HAD BEEN ALL EATEN by people who came in while we were gone.
4.) he showed me a rape tree where over 50 pairs of panties were hung from female RAPE VICTIMS of gang rape, who are raped after they get here. ( believe me..I was ready to set up a stand right there! but Im not going to get arrested...but it was very very tempting!)
5.) I traveled there the first time with my wife....but could not leave her in the house alone. I was afraid for her safety.
6.) that currently the rancher has sent his wife and daughter away from THEIR HOUSE AND PROPERTY because it is SO DANGEROUS!

So I tell you what Mister bleeding heart liberal...how about YOU TAKE YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY...and stay ONE WEEK THERE??? I DARE YOU TO!! then you can come tell me about the BORDER...rather then from your aprtment in NEW YORK CITY or WASHINGTON DC...becuase you sir..ARE CLUELESS about the REALITIES of the situation!


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## hard huntin guy

to all other AT users..Im sorry for the rant. But when I see people like he and WOLFKILLER who are obviously just left wing propangandist who are EMPLOYED to stir up things..it just pisses me off. Especially when I see what my friends on the border have to deal with every day.


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## ebonarcher

As a democrat that belives what "John F Kennedy said"Ask not, what your country can do for you , But what you can do for your country." I am insulted when you lump all democrates together.
I believe you must put into get out. with rare exceptions to the rules. There are those whom need help and it is our responsibility to help those we can that truly need it.


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## rattus58

ebonarcher said:


> As a democrat that belives what "John F Kennedy said"Ask not, what your country can do for you , But what you can do for your country." I am insulted when you lump all democrates together.
> I believe you must put into get out. with rare exceptions to the rules. There are those whom need help and it is our responsibility to help those we can that truly need it.


Listen Bub.... How are you just a little bit pregnant? If you voted for ANYONE who is part of our current crisis, you are lumped..... I am a republican maybe even so far right wing that I've come up left.... but I wouldn't vote for McCain but did for Palin... I vote for the man, not the party and have run a democrats campaign for Council, but when you are an idealogue (as I am) you have to take your lumps with the rest of the sugar..

You talk about need... yes, help those in NEED, not those who are DEPENDANT. Democrats relish creating CLASSES OF DEPENDANCY.... take the mortgage bailout today, take the teacher bailout, take the union bailouts.... 

BUTT..... the Obamas do NOTHING AT ALL FOR BUSINESS.... I have a single word for the Democrats for ramming through the things that are contrary to our Constitution and the support Democrats give to Obama for all of Czars, all of his leftists and Communists of whom he surrounds himself.... one word and if YOU support him, voted for him, voted for or support Obamacare, GM Bailout, Chrysler Bailout, Teacher Bailout, without thinking of the American Worker who earns 30% less than the public union workers who PRODUCE nothing..... I have a word reserved for you too....

Need, not dependancy.... Transparency, not Corruption, Constitutional, not Totalitarian... a Republic, not a Democracy.... these are all the things that Obama AND the DEMOCRATS have championed since 2006... since they took over... and don't forget Bub... it was Barney Frank and Chris Dodd who engineered this FAILURE.... not George Bush... Bush just didn't have the Balls to do anything about it

Aloha... :beer:


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## hard huntin guy

ummm.I did not say DEMOCRAT one time. You must be easily offended by IMAGINED slights.
Go around the world. There are hundreds of millions of people who because of their government live in third world dictatorships...or due to their corrupt government...third world "democracies" . 
They would all like to come here and live of our hard earned tax dollars...but we CANNOT afford it.
I tell you what...your so concerned...they would love your life style...so why dont you find a couple illegal aliens needing homes...and make room in YOUR house for them??? Im sure they would be very grateful! 
Remember..."ask not what your country can do for you...but what your country can do for the tens of millions of ILLEGAL aliens that are pouring over our borders"
Oh...for some reason I doubt youll open your house to them...so why are you asking us to?


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## tgridley

sits in trees said:


> theres been alot of hoopla about Gov Brewer of Arizona puttin the hammer down on Illegal Aliens...you have 1/2 or more of the country yelling YEA, YEA!! and a smaller portion crying that we are becoming some nazi type gov, big smoke screen from what i'm seeing.
> 
> well here's my take on this whole thing folks, Gov Brewer is doing little more than blowing smoke up our arse's, pulling over people in routine traffic stops and checking their papers isnt going to do a thing to stop the flood of illegals from coming in, do they honestly think we are that stupid, this is nothing more than a nutless symbolic gesture by the Arizona gov.
> 
> and what about the 12 million illegals we already have here?????????? did you ever for one minute think that niether side of our gov wants to stop these people from coming in, well thats what i'm thinking because the solution is so freakin simple and could have been put in place decades ago.
> 
> all you have to do is build a wall and man it with our military, thats right a 30 foot high fence/wall with a gaurd/snipers tower every couple hundred yards. it would take a couple years to construct and require probable 20 thousand or so American troops, and cost a mere fraction of what we are already spending in Afganistan..
> 
> is this idea impossible or undoable in any way or form, i really wanna know? or maybe our gov really wants keep these people coming by close to 1 million a year and not do a damn thing more than pull a few over here and there in routine traffic stops?? i know i'm not the only one out there thinking this am I??


They are future democrats and the current administration needs them in Nov. Shoot em all and let god sort them out.


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## SilentElk

Not much in favor of the law AZ wants. I understand what is trying to be accomplished and I additionally believe that that their heart is in the right place but how they are going about is is scary.

By having to 'PROVE' citizen ship on demand, at any time and any place you are essentially creating a police state. Similiar to USSR, etc. Most republicans I know, believe the government takes away people's rights more and more. I find it ironic that people in support of maintaining the rights of USA citizens actually support a law that infringes so much upon its citizens.

You want to get rid of illegal immigration, its actually very easy. Make mandatory fines/jail time for hiring of them. No jobs, and they will leave. If there is no jobs and no way to make a living, then they will be forced to go elsewhere. 

There is ways to remedy this problem but taking away rights of the average citizen are not it. Granting amnesty isnt it either. That just encourages more to come and squat until citizenship is given.


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## zSar

Its called "invasions".. America is slowly being invaded by Illegal Aliens. They said they are not doing anything wrong... ha! so being illegal is not having any wrong doings? huh.. I dont get it... why cant they or want just follow the RULES. Are these allowed on other countries? You will be shot upon if you do or see if these people can survive being an "illegals" in countries.

Also people have this mentality, of them providing cheap labors... yes, they do. It saves you a lot of of money, isn't it? Try looking at this way, one family run into USA... they charge cheap... but they bring in a bunch of family members with him. The US government pays their child welfare, food stamps, schools and medicals. Whose paying taxes by the way?? errr... we do! So we are supporting his entire family and exteded families... Remember taxes goes up every year coz we are feeding them. 

When I lost my job last year, I still have to pay my own health insurance (cobra) but for these ILLEGALS, they get free full coverage benefits from the US government whose taking our hard earned tax dollars for their humanity programs. As I see it.. they are more important than the legals.


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## house4ursoul

I never thought I would have to say this in an archery forum. 
My dad was an illegal alien. And hes the hardest working man I have ever known. Raised a family of four and did it in the most expensive area in the nation, the bay area, California. I thank him for doing whatever he had to do to escape persecution and poverty in his country (nearly put me in tears when I heard why he left his country) and making me a citizen of the, Country that has 90% of the worlds wealth, USA.


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## rattus58

*Who's forcing you to say anything?*



house4ursoul said:


> I never thought I would have to say this in an archery forum.
> My dad was an illegal alien. And hes the hardest working man I have ever known. Raised a family of four and did it in the most expensive area in the nation, the bay area, California. I thank him for doing whatever he had to do to escape persecution and poverty in his country (nearly put me in tears when I heard why he left his country) and making me a citizen of the, Country that has 90% of the worlds wealth, USA.


Your dad shouldn't have been here.... Period!!

But that is not the same as being the character of the man he was. If your dad was hardworking, raised a family that bore the values and virtues of one who contributes, whether he was illegal or not TO ME, he was who he was TO YOU. It's like ethics and who brung you to the dance.

My dad was an immigrant but "married into citizenship", and even then, because we were a territory, he had to go back to San Francisco, coincidentally, for like 6 weeks or 6 months... not sure, to "assimilate"! That doesn't make my dad any more important to me than YOUR DAD is to you

Illegal is Illegal. That is circumstance. If he's caught... histoire.... on the other hand, not knowing YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES, if I was your dad I might do the exact same thing.

This idea of ANCHOR babies being given citizenship is something that is going to be discussed, and it is ABOUT TIME that we do discuss it. America is the GREATEST place on this planet, and to gain citizenship should come with a COST! No cost, no value.

The foregoing is the opinion of teh three of us.... independantly of the rest of us....

Aloha... :beer:


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## Curve1

tgridley said:


> They are future democrats and the current administration needs them in Nov. Shoot em all and let god sort them out.


 That's what it's all about. Also, the Republicrats dont want to deal with the issue either...not seriously.

Remember, we were never formed as Democracy.....some folks dont know this obviously. We were formed as a *Democratic Republic*.......Democracy is MOB RULE, which leads to *anarchy.* Sounds like America today.


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## house4ursoul

Illegal immigration will never stop. Electrified fences with the national guard armed to the teeth keeping watch wont stop people from coming here. Its a result of this country being one of the wealthiest countries in the world historically on the backs of immigrants. People will die to come here and that greatly outweighs any consequences that the US could impose upon them. Im not saying its right or wrong. Im just saying what is. 
To me my father represents what an American should be illegal or not. He works harder than any legal citizen I know. To me, there is no difference if youre married into citizenship or if you risked your life or paid your life savings to have someone smuggle you into a country that will not oppress you. 
I think its funny how people consider it so wrong to have a baby here and have them automatically become citizens, yet you can marry someone with US citizenship and within 6 weeks be granted citizenship. Whats the difference? One more immigrant in the states. One was born here and the other got in through a loophole. 
For people to say that this is their land and all others need to leave is ludicrous and selfish. Considering that america has imported immigrants to do the dirty work and now that they have had their fill of them, they want them out. Too bad. Americas current situation is a byproduct of its history. Better to find a solution on how to cope with the influx of immigrants than to try and keep them from coming in as I am convinced that people will come to the US whether those who reside here want them here or not.


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## rattus58

house4ursoul said:


> Illegal immigration will never stop. Electrified fences with the national guard armed to the teeth keeping watch wont stop people from coming here. Its a result of this country being one of the wealthiest countries in the world historically on the backs of immigrants. People will die to come here and that greatly outweighs any consequences that the US could impose upon them. Im not saying its right or wrong. Im just saying what is.
> To me my father represents what an American should be illegal or not. He works harder than any legal citizen I know. To me, there is no difference if youre married into citizenship or if you risked your life or paid your life savings to have someone smuggle you into a country that will not oppress you.
> I think its funny how people consider it so wrong to have a baby here and have them automatically become citizens, yet you can marry someone with US citizenship and within 6 weeks be granted citizenship. Whats the difference? One more immigrant in the states. One was born here and the other got in through a loophole.
> For people to say that this is their land and all others need to leave is ludicrous and selfish. Considering that america has imported immigrants to do the dirty work and now that they have had their fill of them, they want them out. Too bad. Americas current situation is a byproduct of its history. Better to find a solution on how to cope with the influx of immigrants than to try and keep them from coming in as I am convinced that people will come to the US whether those who reside here want them here or not.


Ummmmmm no that is not the case at all. Dropping a kid here and having the kid AUTOMATICALLY become a citizen is a FAR CRY from having to AFFIRM YOUR CITIZENSHIP. To learn english, to pledge ALLEGIENCE to this great country of ours and having to WAIT IN LINE STILL.... is not the LOOPHOLE of being dropped here on our soil. So, I'm sorry, it just AINT THE SAME. One earned it, the other was granted citizenship with nothing more than sneaking across the border...

Those that SERVE... deserve citizenship. Anchor babies do not, and there is going to finally be debate about this issue. The reason for anchor baby laws are not really present today, so I welcome the DEBATE about it. And trust me, there are means of keeping them out.

I find it EXTREMELY INSTRUCTIVE that you would consider someone who STOOD IN LINE to be a loophole as opposed to being born to someone illegally here.


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## SteveB

Rattus - with you 100% on this one - including the anchor baby thing.


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## zSar

Aren't we all get so freaking tired about these termninology "Illegal Alien" means to these illegals? They think being illegals has not having any wrong doings... They first have to learn ENGLISH to undestand what the word "ILLEGAL" means. comprende?!?!?!?!?!?!?! In general, what people are saying is that these illegals are illegals, otherwise just take that word out of the dictionary and dont even bother classifying any kind of status.. people who come to America is free. Well, then all non illegals should also be treated equally as illegals are entitled to. How about no more of those special programs to feed the "illegals" how about that?? fair enough? Have you seen the poor people here in America? But the govenment is to concern about the welfare of the people outside America. oh, they are so poor and living in a proverty stricken country... we have to take care of them.. And how about the people here? There are many poor people in here as well.


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## WalterJ

I know Im gonna catch heck for this post. Ya know I really just dont care. Im not into politically correctness so if i get banned oh well. You really want to close the border??? The easiest way would be to get a president with stones. Then let the klan sit a mile north of the border and let them make it known they are there. The last time the klan choose to sit on the border. The mexican president called pres. Bush and complained that his citizens were 'afraid'( yeah they were afraid to try entering this country illegally @ that section). The section of border that the klan claimed never had a crossing attempt -until Bush asked them to leave. The only people who will be crossing into this great country at a place other than a legit checkpoint with proper immegration personel are the kind I do not think this country needs!! Close the borders NOW!!!


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## Curve1

ebonarcher said:


> As a democrat that belives what "John F Kennedy said"Ask not, what your country can do for you , But what you can do for your country." I am insulted when you lump all democrates together.
> I believe you must put into get out. with rare exceptions to the rules. There are those whom need help and it is our responsibility to help those we can that truly need it.




Ronals Reagan once stated that " _I didn't leave the Democrat Party, they left me_".
That's pretty much what happened with me and the Republican Party. They're no longer the party of conservatism.
My dad , who is now almost 81 years old told me the other day that he voted for JFK in 1960 [year I was born] , JFK was not the flaming liberal a lot of folks try to portray him as........he was a member of the NRA, believed in lower taxes, hated Communisim.
No, I dont agree with all his politics but there's a lot of Republicans that are not the conservative he was.


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## rattus58

Curve1 said:


> Ronals Reagan once stated that " _I didn't leave the Democrat Party, they left me_".
> That's pretty much what happened with me and the Republican Party. They're no longer the party of conservatism.
> My dad , who is now almost 81 years old told me the other day that he voted for JFK in 1960 [year I was born] , JFK was not the flaming liberal a lot of folks try to portray him as........he was a member of the NRA, believed in lower taxes, hated Communisim.
> No, I dont agree with all his politics but there's a lot of Republicans that are not the conservative he was.


That's exactly right, and today there are NO DEMOCRATS as conservative as JFK was ON TAXES AND FOREIGN RELATIONS. Republicans today are getting an awakening. The Constitution... By the People for the People.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## R Grundy

My wife and I drive through the mexican neighborhoods while out riding our motorcycle and in the last few months there are for rent signs all over the place. Yes they are leaving. We hunt in Colorado and Utah and are seeing more there so I believe they will become a burden there. When SB1070 was first passed it was common to see mexican families with all their stuff leaving especially early in the morning (4:00 when I go to work). Some schools have much reduced enrollments and it's no problem to get a doctors appointment in a few days instead of a few weeks now. As the weather cools down the influx of illegals will rise though. Problems in Mexico will force them out. The increase in the militias numbers in response to no help from the feds may cause some interesting interactions to develop this winter. The Zetas have threatened to kill armed Americans in the Az desert because they have been losing some soldiers lately. Hunting in the "Red Triangle" (the area from the border to Phoenix) should get touchy this fall. I think Jan Brewer did what she did to head off the militia movement but it just keeps gaining strength everytime Obama sues us or blocks any effort to protect ourselves.


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## rattus58

R Grundy said:


> My wife and I drive through the mexican neighborhoods while out riding our motorcycle and in the last few months there are for rent signs all over the place. Yes they are leaving. We hunt in Colorado and Utah and are seeing more there so I believe they will become a burden there. When SB1070 was first passed it was common to see mexican families with all their stuff leaving especially early in the morning (4:00 when I go to work). Some schools have much reduced enrollments and it's no problem to get a doctors appointment in a few days instead of a few weeks now. As the weather cools down the influx of illegals will rise though. Problems in Mexico will force them out. The increase in the militias numbers in response to no help from the feds may cause some interesting interactions to develop this winter. The Zetas have threatened to kill armed Americans in the Az desert because they have been losing some soldiers lately. Hunting in the "Red Triangle" (the area from the border to Phoenix) should get touchy this fall. I think Jan Brewer did what she did to head off the militia movement but it just keeps gaining strength everytime Obama sues us or blocks any effort to protect ourselves.


Well when you have a president that kills jobs in tennessee, Virgina, and New Jersey in the Coal Mines, when you have a president that shuts down oil drilling and exploration and kills the gulf coast resident employment telling them that they have "unemployment" benefits to rely on, I want to Puke. When you have a president that declares war on one of our own united states instead of on the war with illegal mexicans, and agrees with Colderon that we are the problem, not Mexico, when you have a president that declares war on productivity and rewards complacency and dependancy, when you have a president that says giving someone a handout is a tax cut, when you have a president who says that the constitution is a flawed document (because it doesn't give the feds enough power) you have a dictator wannabe. 

What country had czars? Was it Mother Russia? What country had communism/socialism? Was it Mother Russia? The Dreams of my father.... do you know where that has led for his father? The democrats just love him and worship him. The unions just love and worship him. He is for job creation alright.... for targeted industries that will employ no-one. When there is no drilling for oil, there is no employment. When there is no digging for coal, there is no employment. When the solar heaters and collectors are built, there is no employement. When there is no innovation, there is no employment. When there is only unions getting jobs, there is no innovation and prices escalate and our standard of living will continue to evolve into poverty... Militia?

Much Aloha :beer:


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