# Anyone seen Masters of the Barebow



## young hunter (May 22, 2009)

Has anyone here seen the Masters of th Barebow dvds from 3R? If so, how much do you think it has helped your shooting ability. If you have seen all three could you please rate which ones you think helped most. I'm thinking about asking for some of them for christmas:wink:


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

#3 is the best from my perspective


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

3,2,1 in that order.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Arcus said:


> 3,2,1 in that order.


Agreed.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

1 and 2 were...okay. Not awesome, but...ok. I kinda liked the Fred Eichler segment. It's funny, I bought mine directly from Trish Ferrera


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## young hunter (May 22, 2009)

Do any of you think it helped your shooting and if it did please describe how much it helped


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## dominator (Jan 2, 2004)

*Barebow III*

Masters of the Barebow III helped my shooting immensely. I watched the video over and over again and then practiced grooving my shot and finding the perfect shot sequence for me until I am now finding more and more perfect shots. I jumped up from averaging a 230 on a NFAA to over 270 these last few months. That's huge for me! Also, the aiming techniques in MBB II also helped me find an aiming approach that works great for me.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

III is the real deal.

If I had to suggest only one to someone.....this would be it.


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## crazymoose (May 17, 2005)

#3 is the best ,and it helped with my shooting.
Another great dvd is "The Accuracy Factory" by Rick Welsh.
His dvd is excellent on teaching you to shoot instinctively.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

crazy.....

The problem I have with MBBIII and the R Welch thing is.....MBBIII PREACHES back tension. R Welch teaches (as evidenced by the students of his I've seen video of) a dead hand release (which I can't correlate to having anything to do with BT).

I don't see (and maybe you weren't trying to correlate the two) how one could utilize both, simultaneously. I think one would have to choose one or the other.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

JV NC said:


> crazy.....
> 
> The problem I have with MBBIII and the R Welch thing is.....MBBIII PREACHES back tension. R Welch teaches (as evidenced by the students of his I've seen video of) a dead hand release (which I can't correlate to having anything to do with BT).
> 
> I don't see (and maybe you weren't trying to correlate the two) how one could utilize both, simultaneously. I think one would have to choose one or the other.


Back tension...dead hand release...I cannot possibly understand how someone could NOT use both. Back tension used to draw---letting hand go "dead" to release---or am I missing something here?


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

IMO....back tension doesn't stop at full draw. It initiates (CREATES) the release.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JV NC said:


> crazy.....
> 
> The problem I have with MBBIII and the R Welch thing is.....MBBIII PREACHES back tension. R Welch teaches (as evidenced by the students of his I've seen video of) a dead hand release (which I can't correlate to having anything to do with BT).
> 
> I don't see (and maybe you weren't trying to correlate the two) how one could utilize both, simultaneously. I think one would have to choose one or the other.


To understand this...you need to be aware of how muscles can be under tension.

There are 3 primary ways a muscle can be under tension...concentric, eccentric and isometric.

A dynamic release involves a concentric contraction.

A dead release involves an isometric contraction.

So based on those types of contractions...the back muscles are under tension...even with a dead release. It's just a different kind of tension/contraction.

Ray


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Yeah....but we're talking about 2 different things.

1. Back tension to full draw

2. Back tension as a means of initiating the release.

IMO, there's a stark contrast in the two....and the two medias cited don't align (which was my ONLY point).


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## Appalachia (Nov 23, 2009)

Ive got vol.1 and to me it's gotta lot of food for thought, realy liked it and fixin to get the others just to have them. look around and you mite find the whole set for sale used, I missed a good deal a couple weeks ago, a guy had all three for $25.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JV NC said:


> Yeah....but we're talking about 2 different things.


I was just basing my response to what you said - "a dead hand release (which I can't correlate to having anything to do with BT)."



JV NC said:


> I don't see (and maybe you weren't trying to correlate the two) how one could utilize both, simultaneously. I think one would have to choose one or the other.


Exactly :thumbs_up...a muscle can't do both at the same time. 

So it appears when you mention BT...you're talking about concentric/dynamic tension. Correct?

Just for clarification for all the readers.

What is:

1. Back tension to full draw

This is a concentric/dynamic contraction that is caused by specific muscles in the back and arms that shorten under contraction.

Once the an archer reaches anchor and holds it there...it becomes an isometric contraction.

2. Back tension as a means of initiating the release.

This is where the isometric contraction, if an archer is holding at anchor, becomes a concentric/dynamic contraction again by increasing the contraction of the back and shoulder muscles to initiate the release/conclusion.

By the way...I enjoyed all of the movies! :thumbs_up

Ray


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There are 3 primary ways a muscle can be under tension...concentric, eccentric and isometric.
> 
> A dynamic release involves a concentric contraction.
> 
> ...


Nicely explained Ray 

The Dead Release works well for short range -20y shots and imagine is well suited to hunting as there is a lot less movement. I do find this method risky as if you dont get the tension right you can sometimes have lazy shots, not such a problem under 20y but will show up on longer shots past 50y. I found if I had solid anchor I would stop isometric contraction and it would be a lazy shot, so I had to have just a touch anchor.

I find the Dynamic release very consistent and works very well for me on Field rounds, specially on the long range shots. I shot for many years mostly by maintaining (isometric) tension and to learn the more Dynamic release was quite difficult for me.


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## Altiman94 (Jun 11, 2007)

I bought I and II from Cabelas. I like II better than I. I was hoping that there woudl be more segments on traditional hunting techniques, but i should have read more on the reviews to know it was mostly about shooting techniques.

I don't use any aiming methods in my shooting. I'm not the greatest shooter in the world either.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Altiman94 said:


> I don't use any aiming methods in my shooting. I'm not the greatest shooter in the world either.


Just for clarification...if you are pointing your bow and arrow at an object with the intent of hitting that object...you are aiming.

It could be any number of methods from Instinctive to String Walking...but you are using some type of aiming method whether you consciously realize it or not.

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> To understand this...you need to be aware of how muscles can be under tension.
> 
> There are 3 primary ways a muscle can be under tension...concentric, eccentric and isometric.
> 
> ...


I don't know if that is true, strictly speaking. Or at least, the issue is more complicated than that. With a dead release you have to instantly transition from concentric contraction (against the tension of the bow) to isometric contraction when the bowstring is released. The difficulty of that transition is, I assume, the reason that a dynamic release is generally preferred, though some people are expert shots with a dead release.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just for clarification...if you are pointing your bow and arrow at an object with the intent of hitting that object...you are aiming.
> 
> It could be any number of methods from Instinctive to String Walking...but you are using some type of aiming method whether you consciously realize it or not.
> 
> Ray


Indeed, some people over limit the term in their mind to mean aligning a physical object such as a sight with the target. Instead, aiming is the act of selecting a target and orienting your body and bow with the intent to hit that target. Skill is what allows you to actually hit the target you are aiming at


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## Altiman94 (Jun 11, 2007)

I was implying that I am in "instinctive" shooter if there is such a thing. I don't use the string, arrow, or gap shooting as a aiming reference is what i meant.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Altiman94 said:


> I was implying that I am in "instinctive" shooter if there is such a thing. I don't use the string, arrow, or gap shooting as a aiming reference is what i meant.


I'm sure that BW knows that you were implying that you are an "instinctive" shooter. And I expect that BW just wanted to note that even "instinctive" shooters aim, even if it is subconsciously. If you don't aim, then you'll never hit what you are (not) aiming at  It is merely a point of interest, not a criticism.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I'm sure that BW knows that you were implying that you are an "instinctive" shooter. And I expect that BW just wanted to note that even "instinctive" shooters aim, even if it is subconsciously. If you don't aim, then you'll never hit what you are (not) aiming at  It is merely a point of interest, not a criticism.


Exactly!

It was by no means meant as a criticism or any kind of personal attack if you were feeling that way.

There are a few misconceptions regarding aiming, specifically Instinctive Aiming, that can cause some heated debates and I was just trying to make a clarification.

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> With a dead release you have to instantly transition from concentric contraction (against the tension of the bow) to isometric contraction when the bowstring is released. The difficulty of that transition is, I assume, the reason that a dynamic release is generally preferred, though some people are expert shots with a dead release.


You have to first understand what is involved with each type of muscle contraction.

In isometric contraction, the muscle remains the same length. An example would be holding an object up without moving it; the muscular force precisely matches the load, and no movement results. This is how a dead/static release is executed.

In concentric contraction, the force generated is sufficient to overcome the resistance, and the muscle shortens as it contracts. This is how a dynamic release is initiated.

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You have to first understand what is involved with each type of muscle contraction.
> 
> In isometric contraction, the muscle remains the same length. An example would be holding an object up without moving it; the muscular force precisely matches the load, and no movement results. This is how a dead/static release is executed.
> 
> ...


You still aren't adoration the issue of the *transition* from holding the tension of the bow string, to loosing it. With a dead release, a person has to instantly **add** more muscle counter-force to achieve isometric contraction. I understand that the resultant state is isometric, but the difference and import of dynamic vs. dead release has to do with, I should think, the errors introduced to form as a result of how we transition from holding the bow under tension to no tension, so what is actually significant is the details of the transition, not whether the end result is isometric or concentric. That is what I'm getting at. Merely calling one isometric and another concentric is to over simplify and possibly miss the importance of why one might chose one over another.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> You still aren't adoration the issue of the *transition* from holding the tension of the bow string, to loosing it.


Yes...I have. No matter how you look at it...in this situation it's an isometric contraction if the muscle fibers don't lengthen or shorten, which is what happens within the back muscles of an archer who uses a dead/static release.

The only contractions that should change length when performing a dead/static release are within the hand. The back muscles and the muscles surrounding the shoulder are working together to maintain that position.

Now if the load was to increase...the muscle contaction would also have to
increase to maintain their position...and that's still an isometric contraction if the muscle length doesn't change.

And if the load decreases as when an archer releases the string...the muscles don't have to contract as hard to maintain that position...but if the muscle length doesn't change even though the load does...it's still an isometric contraction.

Most of the problems occur when an archer is using a draw weight that is near or at their isometric strength limit.

One way to test this is to compare 2 bows of substantially different draw weights...with one heavy and one light.

The natural reaction of the muscles and joints when using a bow with a heavy draw weight is for the arm and shoulder to move reward
upon release/conclusion, which is why I teach and prefer that method...but when an archer is using a bow they can easily handle...a dead release is very easy to execute by just relaxing the fingers while maintaining the position of the draw arm and shoulder joints.

A dead/static release is less natural and takes more time to learn how to execute it correctly. In other terms...one is easier and the other is forced or more difficult.



Warbow said:


> Merely calling one isometric and another concentric is to over simplify and possibly miss the importance of why one might chose one over another.


I personally think you're trying to make it more complicated than what it really is :dontknow:

Ray


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I personally think you're trying to make it more complicated than what it really is :dontknow:
> 
> Ray


Isn't that what this forum is for? :embara: :zip:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Isn't that what this forum is for? :embara: :zip:


LOL...for some us...yea! I love getting into the nitty gritty with this stuff. Some of us are just more analytical than others. It's what makes this world so interesting. It would be boring if we were all the same 

Ray


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## Appalachia (Nov 23, 2009)

LESS FILLING!!! :darkbeer: TASTE GREAT!!!

But I take it the videos are not bad at all.


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## LGN (Jan 9, 2007)

All three vols. Great info about different techniques in traditional archery!!!!!!


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## Darton01 (Aug 25, 2006)

I got 1&2 and they show diffrent styles or ways of shooting a stick bow. Not so much how to though. Rod Jenkins and others have how to dvd's. I havent seen any of them so I cant comment on them.


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Just opened one of my xmas gift Wife got me 1 2 and 3 guess she knows i need help.


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