# You make the call 12, 10 or 8



## hdracer

10, 12 and looks like it's outside the line so 8 (maybe a 10 but can't tell from the angle if it's touching the line)


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## Dan Turner

10,12,10


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## ruger10x

10,12,8


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## germ-man

*score*

10 - 12 - 10


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## W.Moua

10 -12 - 8


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## outback jack

Looks like 10-12-10 to me but who am I to say I only get to count 8's or 5's.


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## Daniel Boone

*Everyone of those are considerable 12 shots.*

Rules say it has to be touching the line. Not the inside or middle. Just touching the line.

Target 3 is diffiantly no 8 in my opionion.

Target 1 is touching the 12 line but its pulling it. 

Target 2 would be my toughest call. One of the toughest calls in archery. That line there at that point is a 10 or 12 line. Scoring rules say touch the line at any point.
DB


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## TANC

10,10,10 if target 2 is an ASA 12, but pictures are somewhat misleading. Target 2 COULD be a 12 and 3 could be an 8, but I think 2 MIGHT be cutting the outside edge of the 12 and target 3 the outside edge of the 10. So let's call it 10,12,10 after a second look.


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## Daniel Boone

*I assure you everone is touching the line*



TANC said:


> 10,10,10 if target 2 is an ASA 12, but pictures are somewhat misleading. Target 2 COULD be a 12 and 3 could be an 8, but I think 2 MIGHT be cutting the outside edge of the 12 and target 3 the outside edge of the 10. So let's call it 10,12,10 after a second look.


There no doubt about that. Now make the call. I made sure everyone was touching the line.:wink: Your saying the outside of line dont score?
DB


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## OkTrad

10 12 10


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## sagecreek

12 12 10 :wink:


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## Chop1

12 , 12, and if the rules are so that at 6 oclock touching the 10 line (directly under the 12) then I would call the last one a 12 as well. The first 2 don't even look close enough to question to me


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## Robert Sowell

10,12,12. Looks like one is left of the 12 ring. If it has the line, it is a 12 also. According to asa if target 3 is a touching the 10 ring in that position, it is a 12.


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## WaterboyUT

10, 10, 8


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## rustyfence

10-12-10

pretty easy if you ask me.


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## C.Callison

10,12,10 Thats from the picture. It might look different at the target.


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## C.Callison

Upon further review. All 5's.:wink:
Just kidding.


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## ahawk19

12-12-8 I would call the last one a 12 but it looks like from this angle its not quite touching the ring.


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## cenochs

Whom ever says the first one is a 12 please keep my scores they will be going up rapidily


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## pdm57

10,12,8.....if target 3 is a ten, i've been cheaten myself.


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## 3dn4jc

12, 12, 10:wink:


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## MOBOW#1

10,12,8 I don't play the pull game!!!!


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## THEDeerman

10, 12, 10 No such thing as pushing or pulling. It's either touching or isn't. Just my two cents. But, of course I would have scored them 12, 15, 12 oops THE doesn't applie to this question LOL.


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## ABOK

Target 1 is the hardest to call due to poor quality of the target but, I would have to call it a 12, target 2 is also a 12, and target 3 looks like a 10 because the 10 and 12 line actually have a space between them and don't touch or share the same line like most of the the Mckenzie targets do.


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## rdw212189

*Score*

10 -12-8


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## lineape

WaterboyUT said:


> 10, 10, 8


same here.


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## NCSUarcher

*score*

after looking at it 3 times, I give it 12-12-10


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## okarcher

Frist of all #3 has to be a 12 or an 8 it can't be a 10 because if its touching the line its a 12 because thats part of the 12 line. They are all 12's. I don't care if its pulling or not if the line is touching the shaft it is the higher score!


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## Daniel Boone

*ASA rules say*



okarcher said:


> Frist of all #3 has to be a 12 or an 8 it can't be a 10 because if its touching the line its a 12 because thats part of the 12 line. They are all 12's. I don't care if its pulling or not if the line is touching the shaft it is the higher score!



If it is touching the line its get the higher score. Target 3 is diffiantly touching the outside of the line. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone

*Target one*

How can you say its not a 12?

It obviously touching the line. Rules say all it has to do is touch. Fact that it pulled the line over is not the shooters fault. 
DB


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## okarcher

Thats how I call them.:wink:


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## Daniel Boone

*Target 2*

Is touching the line where the ten and 12 meet. ASA rules say the higher score must be given. Always my toughest calls. Seen this go both ways many times.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

*I agree*



okarcher said:


> Frist of all #3 has to be a 12 or an 8 it can't be a 10 because if its touching the line its a 12 because thats part of the 12 line. They are all 12's. I don't care if its pulling or not if the line is touching the shaft it is the higher score!


There all 12 in my book. All three are clearly touching the lines on the outside. There is no gap where the 10 and 12 ring meet.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

*Target*



ABOK said:


> Target 1 is the hardest to call due to poor quality of the target but, I would have to call it a 12, target 2 is also a 12, and target 3 looks like a 10 because the 10 and 12 line actually have a space between them and don't touch or share the same line like most of the the Mckenzie targets do.


Is a brand new Mckensie Target just purchased.
DB


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## okarcher

I agree with you db!


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## monty53

12, 12, 10


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## monty53

Daniel Boone said:


> There all 12 in my book. All three are clearly touching the lines on the outside. There is no gap where the 10 and 12 ring meet.
> DB


Last one is a 10. There's a separate line for the 12 and the arrow is nowhere near it.


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## sagecreek

monty53 said:


> Last one is a 10. There's a separate line for the 12 and the arrow is nowhere near it.



That's the way I see that one too.


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## huntinpool

#1 looks just out of the 12 from that angle. #2 we call that a 23 for grins but a 12 on the shared line for sure. #3 again the shared line and has to be a 12. What do I win?LOL:wink:


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## YankeeRebel

12,12,10 is how I'd score it. :thumb:


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## okarcher

On a mckenzie target there is no seperation between the 12 and 10 line. It may look that way in the pic but if you've shot the universal score rings on the mackenzie targets you would know that all the lines touch. NOt my say so just fact...


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## HoodIN

There is no way target 1 is anything other than a 10. I think there is an assumption the dark line the arrow is touching is the scoring ring when actually the line is about a 1/16" to an 1/8" to the left of the arrow. # 2 is 12 if your calling the center ring per IBO rules. It's out of the lower left ASA ring. The bottom could be 10.


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## Daniel Boone

*I stuck the arrow in the outside of the line*



Bowtech06 said:


> There is no way target 1 is anything other than a 10. I think there is an assumption the dark line the arrow is touching is the scoring ring when actually the line is about a 1/16" to an 1/8" to the left of the arrow. # 2 is 12 if your calling the center ring per IBO rules. It's out of the lower left ASA ring. The bottom could be 10.



Target is pulling the 12 line all day long. Its an ASA 12 for sure. Rhineharts can pull lines even farther than this easily. How could you take it away from the archer without making an imiginary line?
DB


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## Daniel Boone

*I stuck the arrow in the outside of the line*



Bowtech06 said:


> There is no way target 1 is anything other than a 10. I think there is an assumption the dark line the arrow is touching is the scoring ring when actually the line is about a 1/16" to an 1/8" to the left of the arrow. # 2 is 12 if your calling the center ring per IBO rules. It's out of the lower left ASA ring. The bottom could be 10.



Target 1 is pulling the 12 line all day long. Its an ASA 12 for sure. Rhineharts can pull lines even farther than this easily. How could you take it away from the archer without making an imiginary line?
DB


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## RyanH

all are twelves!


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## HoodIN

I'm going of what I see in the picture. It might look differently in person but the arrow looks to be touching a line in the body, not the scoring ring.


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## cd3d

12,12,12.


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## Daniel Boone

*Picture*



Bowtech06 said:


> I'm going of what I see in the picture. It might look differently in person but the arrow looks to be touching a line in the body, not the scoring ring.


Maybe a little decieving. Arrow is diffiantly well in the line where the 12 and 10 meet. These come up often and always seem to be the toughest calls. for me. I do agree that arrow just has to be touching the outside of the line. Sometimes that can be tough to call as well.
DB


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## HoodIN

If you stuck it there, obviously you know. But if I were scoring based of what I see, too questionable.


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## Daniel Boone

*Close calls*



Bowtech06 said:


> If you stuck it there, obviously you know. But if I were scoring based of what I see, too questionable.


Do you call them out or give the benefit to the shooter?
DB


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## HoodIN

I give the benefit to the shooter, I'm referring to it as if it were my shot. I've been given the lower of the two by far less of a margin than that. Maybe they are worried:tongue:


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## treeman65

Daniel Boone said:


> How can you say its not a 12?
> 
> It obviously touching the line. Rules say all it has to do is touch. Fact that it pulled the line over is not the shooters fault.
> DB


 target 1 is not touching the 12 its 10
target 2 is 12
target 3 is 10


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## okarcher

3 can't be a 10. It is either a 12 or an 8 on a mckenzie target.


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## mathewsgirl13

I would say for 12, 12, 10....


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## treeman65

Daniel Boone said:


> Do you call them out or give the benefit to the shooter?
> DB


 Benefit nobody call it what it is.


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## ba3darcher

i dont think you want me calling them.....i am very tough on calling scores, first pic from angle of camera looks out(10), in the pie area, i would give pic 2 a (12), and pic three would be a call by group, all calls prior like this scenerio will set precedent, could be 8,10 or 12


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## luvcamogirl

okarcher said:


> 3 can't be a 10. It is either a 12 or an 8 on a mckenzie target.


Just a womens view 
target 1 shooting lower twelves it is a 12
target 2 is a 10
target 3 is an 8

I do realize that ASA rules say that it MUST be touching the line, but I score a little tougher b/c I believe that 50% of your arrow must be touchig the line, it makes me shoot better and make the shot,but if you are scoring like most ASA shooters all 3 would be 12's. Just my opinion.


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## Guest

3x 12 = 36

DB said they are all touching the line...if it is touching it has to score the higher///

But lets be fair...what are the odds of three arrows hitting exactly like the one DB posted...and on occassion...the 12 ring lines are not consistant (size/shape) 


DB said they are touching the lines...


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## Twinsfan

10-12-8


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## *ProLine*

*12's ALL DAY!!!!*

Some close calls, but I wouldn't be able to say that there undoubtably out, therefore I would have to say that their touching.
12's for all three targets.


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## cenochs

On the first target it is clearly a 10, it is not even close to the 12 cirlce for all you guys that think it is a 12 please I want to shoot in your group sometime.


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## lkmn

10,12,10


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## huntindoc

The confusion on #1 is understandable. The arrow hit the outside lip of the scoring line and distorted it. The picture quality makes it look like the scoring ring is clearly to the left of the arrow when it's not.

#2 12, no question.

#3 It definitely is getting the 10 ring, however it's not at the apex of the common line with the 12. It's a little to the right of that point. Tough call. This is a poorly manufactured target...if you look at the confluence of the center and low 12's you see how the 12/10 confluence should have looked. If it had this call would be much easier.

I always give the archer the benefit of doubt. However most calls aren't hard at all, just made so by wishful thinking.  We also have a responsibility to the field (all the other archers in the tourney) to call arrows fairly and accurately.

hd


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## ciscokid

Dan Turner said:


> 10,12,10


+1


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## mocheese

*I say 10-12-10*

That's my opinion, just makes you wonder though. How guys on the range are calling arrows. Not saying anyone is wrong or right. Just that I could call these the way I would and the next guy come along and shoot them the exact same way and be beating me by 4 points.  That kinda stinks. There is no way I can see target 1 being anything other than a 10. I can clearly see a line for the 12 and the arrow clearly isn't touching it. In my book that makes it a 10 every time.


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## mocheese

Or the guy who says 10-10-8, heck he's gettin beat by 8 points already. 8 Points is a lot.


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## matt2595

*Scores*

No# 1 is a 10 The arrow is right of the 12 ring, you are seeing the texture of the target on the side of the arrow
No# 2 is a 12 no doubt
No# 3 is a 10 according to the picture.
There is a gap between the 12 and the 10 ring, but on most targets the 12 ring would be touching the 10 so it would be a 12
There is no such thing as close, if its close it's out


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## Daniel Boone

*#1*



matt2595 said:


> No# 1 is a 10 The arrow is right of the 12 ring, you are seeing the texture of the target on the side of the arrow
> No# 2 is a 12 no doubt
> No# 3 is a 10 according to the picture.
> There is a gap between the 12 and the 10 ring, but on most targets the 12 ring would be touching the 10 so it would be a 12
> There is no such thing as close, if its close it's out



I placed the arrow in 12 ring then pulled it over like many shots. Its in the 12 ring line. The line looks like this because it has been pulled by the arrow. Make no doubt that is touching the line actually quite a bit to pull over that far.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

*#1*

Lets disscuss this target. Pulling the line. Now I placed the arrow in the 12 line and pulled the line with this arrow. I could clearly do this on anyside of the 12 ring. This clearly happens alot. My thoughts are the outside line is clearly pulled. The arrow hit the line and pulled the lower right side of the line right. My theory is the arrow hit the line on entry and pulled the line due to material in foam and has to be scored a 12 by ASA rules. My exsperiance most would call this 12 in a tournament as well.
DB


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## dw'struth

*12,12?,10*

12,12,10 #2 is the toughest. 1 is TOUCHING the line, no pull. It is simply an imperfect target which hax already been pointed out. #3 is no way a 12. It is touching the 10 line. These are based on the way the rules have been explained to me, I am always willing to learn.


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## sagecreek

If you can't see HAIR between the shaft and the line, it's touching. :wink:

If you can't call it out, it's in. lain:


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## TANC

Daniel Boone said:


> There no doubt about that. Now make the call. I made sure everyone was touching the line.:wink: Your saying the outside of line dont score?
> DB


No, no. All parts of the line score if the arrow indeed touches.


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## fatboyte

1= 12
2= ?12 asa or ?11 ibo but deffinatly a 10 no matter what
3= 10 it is breaking the line


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## TANC

For any of you that think all 3 of these are a 12, I need to shoot with you. I either just became a better shooter or we would be fighting. 

The first target is deceiving in that what appears to be the 12 ring that the arrow is touching is actually one of the indented patterns in the body of the animal. The ring is left of that. Look closer. 

Target two I'll give you could be a 12, and probably is.

Target 3 is definitely NOT touching the 12 line and is touching the 10 line. Maybe it's marked wrong in manufacturing, but that's the way it is, so I wouldn't give anyone a 12 on that one without a fight. :wink:


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## TANC

matt2595 said:


> No# 1 is a 10 The arrow is right of the 12 ring, you are seeing the texture of the target on the side of the arrow
> No# 2 is a 12 no doubt
> No# 3 is a 10 according to the picture.
> There is a gap between the 12 and the 10 ring, but on most targets the 12 ring would be touching the 10 so it would be a 12
> There is no such thing as close, if its close it's out


This is exactly right.


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## jenningsman

Daniel Boone said:


> Target #1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target #2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target #3


id say there all 12s.rules are your suppose to TOUCH the line.the first one i would call a 12.the second one is touching on the on the 2 oclock side.third is touch the bottom of ten which is touching the 12ring,if the arrow was about a 1/2in,left or right i would have to call it a 10.i would call them all 12s if i were scoring.


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## TANC

This is the target 1 ring, DB.


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## okarcher

Sorry boys these are all 12's and Tank I guess me and you would fight unless I was calling your arrows. But in reality I always let the group scorers call them and gracefully accept their decision and go along with most calls.:wink:


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## Slippy Field

W.Moua said:


> 10 -12 - 8


yep!


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## BK Artworks

Daniel Boone said:


> Target #1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target #2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target #3


Target 1... I think someone was talking about the poor condition of the target but I believe they meant the photo of the target. It definately looks like there are two different lines at first look but if you look closely the true line is what is touched and therefore a 12...




Target 2.... Well they meet and call it a 12.



Target 3.... Well all I have to say is that I can see a definate gap between the 12 and the 10 line. If you guys calling it a 12 dont see it then go to the doc because you either need glasses or new glasses. There is a good 1/8" between them and that one should be scored a 10.


DB I agree with 1 and 2 but target 3 would be a close 10 and I think that could be debated as well..... I always find that it's much easier to call when you miss the line to the inside of it.


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## nccrutch

They could all be 12's. #1 is the toughest b/c i can't clearly see the line. Check the diagram in your ASA Tour Guide.


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## proXarchery

12 12 10 from the angle shown


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## Daniel Boone

*There no gap*



BK Artworks said:


> Target 1... I think someone was talking about the poor condition of the target but I believe they meant the photo of the target. It definately looks like there are two different lines at first look but if you look closely the true line is what is touched and therefore a 12...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target 2.... Well they meet and call it a 12.
> 
> 
> 
> Target 3.... Well all I have to say is that I can see a definate gap between the 12 and the 10 line. If you guys calling it a 12 dont see it then go to the doc because you either need glasses or new glasses. There is a good 1/8" between them and that one should be scored a 10.
> 
> 
> DB I agree with 1 and 2 but target 3 would be a close 10 and I think that could be debated as well..... I always find that it's much easier to call when you miss the line to the inside of it.



Im telling you I placed the arrow right in the outside of the line and pulled it. This happens quite often and comes up alot. Its called pulling the line. I should have taken a before picture of the line. The valley in target three is pulled to the right that far. Believe me target 3 is in the 12 line and pulled right.
DB


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## luvcamogirl

Lets clear something up, according to ASA rules you must imagine that the upper and lower 12 lines are joined together, I know that it doesn't look it but in the rules it states that all lines with upper & lower 12's are running together, so if you are calling that #3 is a ten and you are shooting lower 12's it would be a 12 if you are calling it a ten.


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## BK Artworks

DB to me it seemed like you are talking about target #1 in the other posts when you said you placed it and pulled the line.... I agree that it's a 12.


Now on target #3 I can see a definate space in between the 12/10 line on the target in which the arrow is not touching the 12 ring... sorry it's a 10 in my eye's. BTW... in target 3 the arrow is in about the 6 o'clock position not to the right of the rings.


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## huntindoc

"Target 3.... Well all I have to say is that I can see a definate gap between the 12 and the 10 line. If you guys calling it a 12 dont see it then go to the doc because you either need glasses or new glasses. There is a good 1/8" between them and that one should be scored a 10."



There is a lot of misunderstanding here. Yes, there is definitely a gap between the 10 & the 12 but BY THE RULES any arrow touching that part of the 10 ring is scored a 12. Even tho the target looks like the 10 & 12 don't share that line by RULE they do. I'd have less question about this one it DD had put it closer to the point where the two rings should be joined.

Very contusing.

hd


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## BK Artworks

I understand what the rules say and in all honesty that rule is wrong... if there is a gap between two lines they are not touching... if there is a problem with how it was manufactured and they are suppose to be touching then that target should get sent back to the manufacturer. If the lines touched even just by a hair I would call it a 12.... not touching it's not a 12. But then again I dont study the rule book looking for every little advantage and not emplying that anyone who replied to this thread does that but if it was my arrow I'd put it as a 10 if it was touching that line... if I saw a small space between the edge of my arrow and the edge of the line I'd take an 8.


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## la.basscat

3 12's... on to the next target


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## Dthbyhoyt

10 - 12 - 12


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## JAVI

0, 0, 0, you touched em before they were scored....:jaw:


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## 3dshooter80

10-12-8

I hope I never have to shoot against anyone that would call the first one a 12. We have some guys around here that would even though that is the easiest one to call. It is a 10 in no-mans-land all day long. 
The second one is a little tougher as the lines are not definitive enough. They are blurred together. I would have to say 12 as the lines appear to be one in the same. The line on the last one is very crisp and it looks to me like it is out. If it had a line like #2, then I would say it was a 10. However, that crisp line makes it obvious that it is just out. 
I think this thread proves something to me that I have always wondered about, and that is that most people don't judge arrows as "precise" as I do. I have argued with several people that my arrow is out of the 12 just like in #1 and they couldn't believe that I didn't think it was in. 
By the way, I am not afraid to turn in a bad score. What I shoot is what I shoot: sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.


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## caddokid

Well, feed me garlic and call me stinky, but you score em like you see em I believe, so I would have to go with 10-12-10.


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## okarcher

again people #3 can only be a 12 or an 8 it cann't be a 10. THe picture looks like they don't meet but the do. A bunch of you guys are right on when you say I hope we don't shoot together. We go by the rules not your judgment or imho.


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## TANC

3dshooter80 said:


> 10-12-8
> 
> I hope I never have to shoot against anyone that would call the first one a 12. We have some guys around here that would even though that is the easiest one to call. It is a 10 in no-mans-land all day long.
> 
> Exactly. They are confusing the actual ring with animal markings and features.
> 
> The second one is a little tougher as the lines are not definitive enough. They are blurred together. I would have to say 12 as the lines appear to be one in the same.
> 
> Agreed !
> 
> The line on the last one is very crisp and it looks to me like it is out. If it had a line like #2, then I would say it was a 10. However, that crisp line makes it obvious that it is just out.
> 
> You can't see the outside of that line is "disturbed" with that arrow ? Even at your young age ? All it has to do is touch any part of that ring......including the outer edge.
> 
> I think this thread proves something to me that I have always wondered about, and that is that most people don't judge arrows as "precise" as I do. I have argued with several people that my arrow is out of the 12 just like in #1 and they couldn't believe that I didn't think it was in.
> By the way, I am not afraid to turn in a bad score. What I shoot is what I shoot: sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.
> 
> I think if you place a scorecard in the ring, and that arrow doesn't touch it (which it wouldn't in any of the 3), then it shouldn't count, but I know the rules don't read that way. All it has to do is touch any part of the ring.


As far as the rules stating that there can be no gap between the 10 and 12 ring like in the case of ex 3, I haven't seen that one, but if it's true, then it would be a 12. But until someone shows me that rule, it's a 10.

And, BTW, if you pull any of them before scoring them, you get a 0. By the rules.


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## Brown Hornet

MOBOW#1 said:


> 10,12,8 I don't play the pull game!!!!


Exactly...:wink:


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## Daniel Boone

*Eight*



3dshooter80 said:


> 10-12-8
> 
> I hope I never have to shoot against anyone that would call the first one a 12. We have some guys around here that would even though that is the easiest one to call. It is a 10 in no-mans-land all day long.
> The second one is a little tougher as the lines are not definitive enough. They are blurred together. I would have to say 12 as the lines appear to be one in the same. The line on the last one is very crisp and it looks to me like it is out. If it had a line like #2, then I would say it was a 10. However, that crisp line makes it obvious that it is just out.
> I think this thread proves something to me that I have always wondered about, and that is that most people don't judge arrows as "precise" as I do. I have argued with several people that my arrow is out of the 12 just like in #1 and they couldn't believe that I didn't think it was in.
> By the way, I am not afraid to turn in a bad score. What I shoot is what I shoot: sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.


I can assure that last target is no eight. Actually well in the line of the ten for sure. Picture must be deceiving because I made sure they were touching the line. Remember all it has to do is touch the line.:wink:
DB


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## Daniel Boone

*Rules clearly say*



Brown Hornet said:


> Exactly...:wink:


Arrow touching the line. If it hits the line and pulls it. Thats touching the line.:wink:
DB


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## rock77

Man I need to learn how to score targets I'm already down 8 points on the first three targets.
whipped by the pencil again


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## huntindoc

I think It's not. I think you can distort the line without touching it the problem is some guys claiming that pulling the line is de-facto evidence that it is touching.

I have not personally seen the rule on the overlap of 1O & 12 rings but our club employs it " to be the same as ASA"

hd


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## cenochs

DB must shoot some awesome scores and is hard to beat the way he is calling arrows. I never want to shoot aganist him or in his group.


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## Daniel Boone

*Fact*



cenochs said:


> DB must shoot some awesome scores and is hard to beat the way he is calling arrows. I never want to shoot aganist him or in his group.


I never call my own arrows. But I garantee I know how to call arrows and know what the rules say. Pro archers do call them tight and right. :wink:
Im bringing awareness to how arrows and the rules say. If its touching the line. I place the arrows in those targets and they are touching the lines. Come shoot with me anytime. Simms in Augusta lets do it.:wink: Will have fun. 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Pulling the line*



huntindoc said:


> I think It's not. I think you can distort the line without touching it the problem is some guys claiming that pulling the line is de-facto evidence that it is touching.
> 
> I have not personally seen the rule on the overlap of 1O & 12 rings but our club employs it " to be the same as ASA"
> 
> hd



Happens easily. I notice lighter arrows tend to hit and go in at a angle.


----------



## wlw723

*10 ,12, 8*

judging by the angle of entry on #1 the twelve ring would be the center 12 on that target so anywhere in the lower 12 ring would be considered a 10, there is only one scorable 12 ring on a target ,there is more than one 12 ring printed on the targets for different angled shots...and the last one is an 8 :darkbeer:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Last one is no eight*



wlw723 said:


> judging by the angle of entry on #1 the twelve ring would be the center 12 on that target so anywhere in the lower 12 ring would be considered a 10, there is only one scorable 12 ring on a target ,there is more than one 12 ring printed on the targets for different angled shots...and the last one is an 8 :darkbeer:


Its clearly touching the outside of ten line for sure. Quess I need to draw lines. I placed the arrow in the target and made sure its touching. :wink:
DB


----------



## MarkC

12-12 and i can't see enough of the 3rd one to say but if its not touching the line 8 if it is 10.

MarkC


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Here how I see it*



MarkC said:


> 12-12 and i can't see enough of the 3rd one to say but if its not touching the line 8 if it is 10.
> 
> MarkC


Heres the outside of the line.


----------



## Scottie

Man, if i shot with some of you guys, my average would go up 10 points.
Now, these pics could be deceiving, but in our league it's simple. It's touching the original line as it would lie, or it isn't.

#1 is a 10. I can't see anyway from the picture to score that a 12, not even close. The line it is touching is part of the animal's character, not the 12 ring.

# 2 is a 10. If you draw an original line around the 12 ring, the arrow does not break it. Again, going by the picture which could be deceiving.

#3; 10 It appears to me that the line in original form would be broken by the shaft.


----------



## outdoorattic

10-10-8


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## 1DevineShooter

DB, Thanks for opening this conversation. It's something that we run into every weekend. I wish that ASA would furnish pictures like these with their rule books with instructions on how to score them. Especially when you are shooting a pro/am or a money tournament it just depends on the group you are shooting with as to how its scored. You know majority rule... it's great when it's in your favor, but it sucks when it's not.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Mike*



1DevineShooter said:


> DB, Thanks for opening this conversation. It's something that we run into every weekend. I wish that ASA would furnish pictures like these with their rule books with instructions on how to score them. Especially when you are shooting a pro/am or a money tournament it just depends on the group you are shooting with as to how its scored. You know majority rule... it's great when it's in your favor, but it sucks when it's not.


Close calls can go both ways. Im shooting with guys that have many years of arrow calling and most call them 100% right. Its part of 3D. Its actually a judgement call sometimes. If I have to look for along time the archers most likely going to get the beneifit of the higher score evertime. I never cal my arrows unless the three archers in my group ask my opinion. 
DB


----------



## deerhunter23

*score arrows*

target one is a 10, target 2 is a 10 and target 3 is an 8(if u look close enough u can see foam in between the arrow and the line so there is no way that arrow 3 is a 12.


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## JAVI

Dan...

A lot of the controversy is stemming from the angle at which the photo is taken, in the field we have the benefit of being able to look from more than one angle.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Angle*



JAVI said:


> Dan...
> 
> A lot of the controversy is stemming from the angle at which the photo is taken, in the field we have the benefit of being able to look from more than one angle.


I drew lines for some here. Thats about as good of an agle as your going to get. Digital must look different because Im telling everyone there touching the lines. :tongue: There still controversal at the shoots all the time. Close calls anyway you call them.
DB


----------



## VeroShooter

Going by ASA Rules
#1 is a 12 - The line is distorted from its original position but that is not in the rules - only that it must touch and it clearly does.

#2 is a 12 - take a look at the ASA picture of scoring universal targets that is in their rule book this year. This arrow is the perfect example of what they are illustrating

#3 is a 12 (If as DB says it is touching) - There is no 10 for this arrow - it is either an 8 or a 12. If it touching that line then it is a 12


----------



## Bowtech n ROSS

12,12,10


----------



## bow-legged

12-12-10 I would be upset with any thing else.


----------



## possum trapper

10,12,8 from my angle


----------



## wlw723

VeroShooter said:


> Going by ASA Rules
> #1 is a 12 - The line is distorted from its original position but that is not in the rules - only that it must touch and it clearly does.
> 
> #2 is a 12 - take a look at the ASA picture of scoring universal targets that is in their rule book this year. This arrow is the perfect example of what they are illustrating
> 
> #3 is a 12 (If as DB says it is touching) - There is no 10 for this arrow - it is either an 8 or a 12. If it touching that line then it is a 12


how can #3 not have a ten there is clearly an 8 ring ,10,ring and 12 rings (3 12 rings depends on angle of shot which 12 is scored) and in #3 the 12 ring that is scoreable is the center one from the shot angle taken ,even if it was in the middle of that lower 12 ring it would score a 10 the only scoreable 12 is the center one.


----------



## wolfman_73

Because the 12 ring and and the 10 ring actually "share" the same line at bottom of ring. That is why no 10, but 12. They consider it higher score when both rings share the same line. Im guessing we are talking low 12's, right?


----------



## Xbuster2003

*no way..*

there is no way that last one is a 12....


----------



## wlw723

so no matter what 12 ring you guys hit you score it a 12 so if 3 guys are shooting and they each land an arrow in different 12 rings , you score all three 12's ...the lower twelve ring on the #3 target is for a quartering shot angle. the animal is clearly standing broadside so the 12 that would score would be the center one... the other two 12 rings would score as a 10


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## RchurE

I can see how these are arguable calls and the proof is here that if you ask 100 people you'll get different opinions. Rules are rules and I know what they say but I'll just say this... If I won the tournament by 2 points and these were three of my shots I would have a hard time with the win conscience wise.

The first one in my opinion is out. Clear 10. I say that because what if you're shooting a 5 spot round and part of your X gets torn and the line is hanging down 1/4" below where it is supposed to be and you touch it? Is it an X?

The second one is clearly a 12 whether you're scoring center 12 or low 12 because those rings clearly share the same line.

The third one is clearly a 10. It got the 10 line but there's an 1/8" difference in where the shaft is and where the 12 ring starts. I don't care what the rules say, if that's a 12 then the target manufacturer needs to do a better job of scoring the lines or the rule needs to be changed. If I got beat by that shot or won by that shot I'd be unhappy.


----------



## HoodIN

*Db*

Looking at the other pics you posted of target 1 I can see what you mean about the line being pulled. I honestly never have run into it myself but it is interesting. I don't doubt for one second that you placed these in the twelve ring, but from what the pics show it was tough to call. Good topic though:wink:


----------



## AAarcher

Good thread Dan. Those new Mackenzie targets are so much more pliable & have a really thick line, much like a Rinhart target. So they tend to pull lines more easily.... which also increases controversy! #1 has got to be the most controversial... BUT the fact is, it is pulling the outside of that line; making contact. :wink:
12,12,12


----------



## wlw723

I always score my shots in the following manner ,the line is where the deepest part of the goove is ,if I am touching that I score the higher score ,the taper down to the line is there so you can see the scoring areas better with binos,I do not consider this part of the line ..also I only score 1 twelve ring per target,defined by the way the target is angled ...............maybe I am too hard on myself , but the way I score mine noone can contest whether it is in or out , it is what it is ..I still cant believe anyone would score #3 a 12 ....the 12 on that target is the CENTER circle not the lower one


----------



## archerdad

ABOK said:


> Target 1 is the hardest to call due to poor quality of the target but, I would have to call it a 12, target 2 is also a 12, and target 3 looks like a 10 because the 10 and 12 line actually have a space between them and don't touch or share the same line like most of the the Mckenzie targets do.


my thoughts exactly.


----------



## rocklock

Target 1 - 10

Target 2 - 12

Target 3 - 8

Man, if I learned how to score I would be getting a lot higher scores....=]


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## TANC

wlw723 said:


> I always score my shots in the following manner ,the line is where the deepest part of the goove is ,if I am touching that I score the higher score ,the taper down to the line is there so you can see the scoring areas better with binos,I do not consider this part of the line ..also I only score 1 twelve ring per target,defined by the way the target is angled ...............maybe I am too hard on myself , but the way I score mine noone can contest whether it is in or out , it is what it is ..I still cant believe anyone would score #3 a 12 ....the 12 on that target is the CENTER circle not the lower one


Your logic is confusing. There are plenty of targets with all 3 rings. I have some myself on my range. The ASA doesn't score center 12 rings. And I promise DB is looking at this as ASA since that's what he shoots. The lower 12 is what he's looking at when asking what you would score it. It has nothing to do with a center 12.


----------



## wlw723

yes I see maybe he is scoring all targets using the lower twelve, but if you are using all 3 twelve rings then why would #2 even be contestable... It is my understanding that only 1 twelve ring is scored (not any of the three) there are 3 different 12 rings for 3 different angle placements of the animal ... and at the angle that #3 was shot at I believe the proper 12 ring to be the center one ... please give me a link to where I can see the rules if my way of thinking is wrong


----------



## treeman65

Is this pro or Joe 12s ?:wink:


----------



## TANC

Only one ring is scored. That is true. But angle has nothing to do with it. ASA national ProAm shoots use all lower 12's one day and all upper 12's the next. Unless it's Pro Class, then all are lower 12. And never center 12's. 

I don't think too many are arguing about target 2. It's target 1 and 3 that are stirring the healthy debate. And both are with respect to the lower 12.

The issue over target one appears to be whether the 12 ring is "deformed" by the manufacturer and if the arrow touches the outside edge of it if it is. I say it's not deformed and the ring isn't poorly burned in as it looks clear to me where the 12 ring really is (left of the arrow), but DB says it is and has seen it first hand, so he should know. Maybe that ring really is wider at that one point, but it looks like part of the animal character to me rather than a ring.

Target 3 the issue is really over whether the 12 and 10 would be scored as one even though they clearly don't touch in the picture. Maybe another manufacturing defect, but I see them that way all the time and would not give a 12 to anyone in picture 3. When someone post the written rule somewhere stating they have to be one in the same, I'll change my mind, but I'm still waiting for a link or proof of such rule. But it clearly touches that outside 10 line. 

Just healthy debate. That's all.


----------



## wlw723

tanc thank you for the explanation , I guess my Ignorance of asa rules got the best of me, I shoot hunter class with 3 friends and we shoot at the rings in a hunting perpective of which we let the angle placement of the target decide which 12 we score .....


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## okarcher

Were scoring low 12's in these pics not center rings.


----------



## huntindoc

wlw723 said:


> how can #3 not have a ten there is clearly an 8 ring ,10,ring and 12 rings (3 12 rings depends on angle of shot which 12 is scored) and in #3 the 12 ring that is scoreable is the center one from the shot angle taken ,even if it was in the middle of that lower 12 ring it would score a 10 the only scoreable 12 is the center one.


In ASA the center 12 ring is never in play. One day will be low 12's, the next will be high 12's. In this instance the low 12 is the one in play. DB can correct me if that was not his intent.

Again, by rule target #3 can not be a 10! If it touches the line it's a 12, if it doesn't it's an 8.

hd


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## jwolfe78

I think they are all 12's... considering ASA's rules....


----------



## Bowtechie

This thread just makes me very glad the IBO doesn't use 12 rings. Too much room for mis-judging. There is no way that #3 is a 12. Look at the hole where the arrow was pulled out in pic #2. Clearly not touching that 12 ring. So it's O.K. to have the bottom line of the 12 ring to be at least twice as thick as the sides of the 12 ring.


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## okarcher

The IBO still has rings that can be pulled and be contraversial(spelling?). It has an 11 ring pretty much same thing as the 12 in asa. It has 10,8 lines that can be judgement calls too. What does ibo or asa have anything to do with calling arrows on lines they both have them.


----------



## bowmender

12 , 12 , 10.


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## thumperX

12,10,8 no question!!!


----------



## jenningsman

*question?*

in picture #3 is the twelve ring touching the bottom 10 ring?i would say yes.so if arrow is touching the bottom of 10 where the 12 connects i would have to say it was a twelve.if the arrow was about 1/2in.left or right where the 12 does not touch the 10ring i would have to give it a 10.the rules are,you just have to touch the outside ring,some people think u have to break the line,just touch the very outside ring.if the group cant call it in or out,must give it the next highest score.


----------



## Bowtechie

okarcher said:


> The IBO still has rings that can be pulled and be contraversial(spelling?). It has an 11 ring pretty much same thing as the 12 in asa. It has 10,8 lines that can be judgement calls too. What does ibo or asa have anything to do with calling arrows on lines they both have them.



The part about the lines merging to become one line. ANd if that is true you would only have an extremely small area to hit the 12 and 10 line at the same time at the apex of the 12 circle. What if it cuts the 10 line off to the side of the apex of the 12 ring a little? Too much gray area there.


----------



## Bowtechie

i went to look at the rules about the merging lines and didn't see any info concerning how to score those shots. There was a statement that said INSERT TARGET DIAGRAM HERE but I couldn't view it.


----------



## okarcher

where the 10 and 12 lines meet at the bottom actually covers about 3/8".


----------



## TANC

Bowtechie said:


> i went to look at the rules about the merging lines and didn't see any info concerning how to score those shots. There was a statement that said INSERT TARGET DIAGRAM HERE but I couldn't view it.



Exactly. Show me ASA rules that say the lower 12 and 10 rings HAVE to touch and are one in the same at that merge.

All this thread has proven to me is that the scores are what the majority wants them to be......which I knew anyway.  

We had a controversial scoring on an arrow at the Roanoke ProAm one time, called for a rules official, and he told us he couldn't help. We had to work it out on our own. Since I and another guy were the scorekeepers, and three others were the scorers, we had no say even though we BOTH knew the arrow was out. But majority rules, and the other three decided to "give him a 12". But if I were a scorer, these pictures would be 10,12,10 by me. End of story unless I was standing in front of these targets and they looked different from the pictures....which they might based on what DB says.


----------



## VeroShooter

*Thanks*



wolfman_73 said:


> Because the 12 ring and and the 10 ring actually "share" the same line at bottom of ring. That is why no 10, but 12. They consider it higher score when both rings share the same line. Im guessing we are talking low 12's, right?


I wasn't on until now thanks for replying!


----------



## sagecreek

This is why I called #3 a 10, because it does not share a common line like the low 12 and center 12 does.


----------



## CutTheLoop

TANC said:


> Exactly. Show me ASA rules that say the lower 12 and 10 rings HAVE to touch and are one in the same at that merge.
> 
> All this thread has proven to me is that the scores are what the majority wants them to be......which I knew anyway.
> 
> We had a controversial scoring on an arrow at the Roanoke ProAm one time, called for a rules official, and he told us he couldn't help. We had to work it out on our own. Since I and another guy were the scorekeepers, and three others were the scorers, we had no say even though we BOTH knew the arrow was out. But majority rules, and the other three decided to "give him a 12". But if I were a scorer, *these pictures would be 10,12,10 by me*. End of story unless I was standing in front of these targets and they looked different from the pictures....which they might based on what DB says.



100% agree. 
And I also think the ASA scoring rules are too open to interpretation. 
If I had my way the rule would be changed so that the scoring was determined by the ring or zone that contained the obvious greater amount of shaft.

I mean, c'mon... pulling a line?:doh:

And while we're on the subject of scoring. Let's talk about the 14.

I also think the shooter should have to "call" that shot. If not then scored as an 8. Don't see the point in rewarding the shooter with a possible 6-9 point bonus for a horrible shot or release spasm.:wink:

just my .02


----------



## CutTheLoop

3dshooter80 said:


> 10-12-8
> 
> I hope I never have to shoot against anyone that would call the first one a 12. We have some guys around here that would even though that is the easiest one to call. It is a 10 in no-mans-land all day long.
> The second one is a little tougher as the lines are not definitive enough. They are blurred together. I would have to say 12 as the lines appear to be one in the same. The line on the last one is very crisp and it looks to me like it is out. If it had a line like #2, then I would say it was a 10. However, that crisp line makes it obvious that it is just out.
> I think this thread proves something to me that I have always wondered about, and that is that most people don't judge arrows as "precise" as I do. I have argued with several people that my arrow is out of the 12 just like in #1 and they couldn't believe that I didn't think it was in.
> *By the way, I am not afraid to turn in a bad score. What I shoot is what I shoot: sometimes I win, sometimes I lose*.


:amen:


----------



## BK Artworks

wlw723 said:


> tanc thank you for the explanation , I guess my Ignorance of asa rules got the best of me, I shoot hunter class with 3 friends and we shoot at the rings in a hunting perpective of which we let the angle placement of the target decide which 12 we score .....


That's fine unless where you are shooting stated that they are shooting low, center, or high 12's that day... I know ASA dont shoot center 12's and that was put in there for IBO but face it if you are part of a smaller club and it isn't a state or other big shoot then you could pic which one of those to shoot for the day to help save some wear/tear on your targets.

I think pulling the line is BS unless my arrow has clearly cut the line then it's the lower score.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Pulling the line*



FOBsKILL said:


> 100% agree.
> And I also think the ASA scoring rules are too open to interpretation.
> If I had my way the rule would be changed so that the scoring was determined by the ring or zone that contained the obvious greater amount of shaft.
> 
> I mean, c'mon... pulling a line?:doh:
> 
> And while we're on the subject of scoring. Let's talk about the 14.
> 
> I also think the shooter should have to "call" that shot. If not then scored as an 8. Don't see the point in rewarding the shooter with a possible 6-9 point bonus for a horrible shot or release spasm.:wink:
> 
> just my .02



The rule is written right. Fact is the arrow hit right in the line and the foam caused it to not go in straight. The good shot was made and the arrow is touching the line. I find this amazing that you would take points away from an arrow clearly touching the line. You make no sense what so ever in this thought. I dont think it that tough to call. I can say I placed the arrows in these targets and pictures may be a little deceptive. Point is all the arrow has to do is touch:wink: Luck can be part of archery,
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Your wrong about target 3*



thumperX said:


> 12,10,8 no question!!!



That arrow is actually touching the ten line for sure. Picture may be decieiving you but its touching the ten line for sure. Question is it a 10 or 12:wink:
DB


----------



## Brown Hornet

Daniel Boone said:


> Arrow touching the line. If it hits the line and pulls it. Thats touching the line.:wink:
> DB


If it is touching then it isn't pulling...I know what the rule says...but guys go to an extreme and say that it is pulling the line when it isn't touching it.

I know it...and you know. :wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I agree*



Brown Hornet said:


> If it is touching then it isn't pulling...I know what the rule says...but guys go to an extreme and say that it is pulling the line when it isn't touching it.
> 
> I know it...and you know. :wink:



Touching means there no gap between the arrow and the line. Line calling is pretty simple. You must see foam between the line and arrow. Often its so close you cannot see any material and you must give the benefit to the archer. Pulling the line happens and it a term that means when the line is pulled due to the arrow hitting it and dragging it. It happens with the softer foam targets now being made. I shoot with guys that call them tough as anyone. Last two pro ams they have called the arrow in if the line is pulled to the arrow and its touching. Pros dont give anything away.:wink: 
DB


----------



## Brown Hornet

Daniel Boone said:


> Touching means there no gap between the arrow and the line. Line calling is pretty simple. You must see foam between the line and arrow. Often its so close you cannot see any material and you must give the benefit to the archer. Pulling the line happens and it a term that means when the line is pulled due to the arrow hitting it and dragging it. It happens with the softer foam targets now being made. I shoot with guys that call them tough as anyone. Last two pro ams they have called the arrow in if the line is pulled to the arrow and its touching. Pros dont give anything away.:wink:
> DB


As you stated line calling is pretty simple....but the majority of people don't make it simple.....

There is no benifit of the doubt....it is either in or out. I am not "Giving" anything...if you want something givin to you...the shooter better "get" his arrow inside the line or on it.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I understand benefit of doubt*



Brown Hornet said:


> As you stated line calling is pretty simple....but the majority of people don't make it simple.....
> 
> There is no benifit of the doubt....it is either in or out. I am not "Giving" anything...if you want something givin to you...the shooter better "get" his arrow inside the line or on it.


I have watched some mighty fine archers that have been shooting all there life have trouble calling the arrow. Look at it from all angles and still undecideded. In that case they give the benefit to the archer. This often happens when one guys says it out and the next one says its in and its up to the third person to make his call. This happen twice to me in the last pro ams. One called it in and one out and the the third guy was undecided and the call went my way once and once he agreed it was out. I hate calling arrows but its part of archery and I tell everyone just do the best you can do.
But some dont understand how to call arrows. One guy told me if it aint cutting the line its out, he wrong. Rule says touching. Benefit is a bad term.

We all see from this thread the different in opionions on calling arrows.:wink:
DB


----------



## Brown Hornet

Daniel Boone said:


> I have watched some mighty fine archers that have been shooting all there life have trouble calling the arrow. Look at it from all angles and still undecideded. In that case they give the benefit to the archer. This often happens when one guys says it out and the next one says its in and its up to the third person to make his call. This happen twice to me in the last pro ams. One called it in and one out and the the third guy was undecided and the call went my way once and once he agreed it was out. I hate calling arrows but its part of archery and I tell everyone just do the best you can do.
> But some dont understand how to call arrows. One guy told me if it aint cutting the line its out, he wrong. Rule says touching. Benefit is a bad term.
> 
> We all see from this thread the different in opionions on calling arrows.:wink:
> DB



I think the problem is most people are AFFRAID to call an arrow out.......it is the everyone wants or needs to win mind set....and not earning it...


----------



## JAVI

Nothing in the rules say how far the line can be pulled, it only says the arrow must touch the line... so in soft material the line could pull a 1/4" or maybe more and the arrow still be touching the line... Touch does not mean cut it means touch... The line on the new ASA targets is soft and somewhat ill-defined but better than last year for sure....:wink:


----------



## CutTheLoop

Daniel Boone said:


> The rule is written right. Fact is the arrow hit right in the line and the foam caused it to not go in straight. *The good shot was made* and the arrow is touching the line. I find this amazing that you would take points away from an arrow clearly touching the line. You make no sense what so ever in this thought. I dont think it that tough to call. I can say I placed the arrows in these targets and pictures may be a little deceptive. Point is all the arrow has to do is touch:wink: *Luck can be part of archery*,
> DB




First, if it was a "good" shot, there would be no question as to the score. A good shot would be a center punched 12... no need to look at it twice.

And "Fact is the arrow hit right in the line and the foam caused it to not go in straight."......HUH? Are we now saying the foam line caused the arrow to glance?

The line on #1 is actualy 1/8-1/4 inch left of the shaft on target 1, the "line" you are in disagreement with is a hair or wrinkle feature molded into the target, and the part of the "line" you say is being pulled on at the 7:00 position of the shaft, is a crack or tear in the foam. Not to mention you say, i'm taking points away from an arrow clearly touching the line?? I was under the impression the dilema was weather or not it was "pulling" the line, or even where the line is(which again, is obvious)... which is still bogus, but I digress.

I didn't say it was that tough to call, based on what is clearly the line, it is obviously a 10.


----------



## CutTheLoop

*.*

All that said...

Dan, I will give you major points for the topic and debate. Will certainly give a lot of shooters some things to consider next time out.
:nixon:


----------



## jwolfe78

This is a good thread.... lots and lots of different opinions... again... have to call all 12....


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I understand*



FOBsKILL said:


> First, if it was a "good" shot, there would be no question as to the score. A good shot would be a center punched 12... no need to look at it twice.
> 
> And "Fact is the arrow hit right in the line and the foam caused it to not go in straight."......HUH? Are we now saying the foam line caused the arrow to glance?
> 
> The line on #1 is actualy 1/8-1/4 inch left of the shaft on target 1, the "line" you are in disagreement with is a hair or wrinkle feature molded into the target, and the part of the "line" you say is being pulled on at the 7:00 position of the shaft, is a crack or tear in the foam. Not to mention you say, i'm taking points away from an arrow clearly touching the line?? I was under the impression the dilema was weather or not it was "pulling" the line, or even where the line is(which again, is obvious)... which is still bogus, but I digress.
> 
> I didn't say it was that tough to call, based on what is clearly the line, it is obviously a 10.


I was saying the arrow entered straight and the push right or left due to the foam target. I have always thought I made bad shoots when looking at the nocks in targets only to see the point hits its mark. Thats why the line can be pulled. Carbon arrows grab foam pretty good and some more than others.
Certianly the hardest calls to make. Really never seen it be a major promblem calling for most. Just something to consider in 3d and foam targets.
Its certianly good for archers to disscuss these calls. :wink: Like I said before, my coach says put inside the line and its never a promblem:tongue:
DB


----------



## Bowtechie

sagecreek said:


> This is why I called #3 a 10, because it does not share a common line like the low 12 and center 12 does.


But Sage the outside of the 12 ring is touching the inside of the 10 line so it's gotta be a 12.  :set1_rolf2:


----------



## TN- archerychic

*Scoring*

There is a scoring diagram in the 2008 ASA Tour Guide. Using that as a reference (as anyone shooting ASA rules should be), then all 3 of these targets would score as 12's.


----------



## Bubba Dean

That Javelina is a tough one. I can not recall a target(unless the 12 was cut in) having separate 12 & 10 lines at the bottom of the 12. I guess maybe another example of McKenzie's committment to quality.


----------



## Bubba Dean

Looking at the pic, the red lines are the 12 and the yellow the 10 this arrow I would score as a 10. In the grand scheme of how it should be the 12 & 10 lines should be together(they are clearly separate on this target) and that arrow would score a 12.


----------



## bhtr3d

The rings on that javalina target are a product flaw...There shouldnt be a gap between the 12 ring and bottom and the 10 ring line. 

That being said: Shoot at what you got to shoot at. if it don't touch the line its a 10. 

About where the top of the 12 ring touching the edge of the 11 ring just a luck of the draw to hit there with it having a fatter part to the line. 
So that would be a 12.

The other one from the angle i see room between the arrow and ring....would be a 10.


----------



## sagecreek

Bubba Dean said:


> Looking at the pic, the red lines are the 12 and the yellow the 10 this arrow I would score as a 10. In the grand scheme of how it should be the 12 & 10 lines should be together(they are clearly separate on this target) and that arrow would score a 12.


Yeah, I say bad target. lain: and simple


----------



## BlackArcher

*First two straignt forward the third speculative...*



Daniel Boone said:


> Target #1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target #2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Target #3



10 in the noman's land, not touching any lines...
12 per ASA intersection rules
10 Bottom of the 10...it appears that there is a separation between the 12 and the 10...Usualy those lines intersect....That one may cause controversy....


----------



## zwalls

12,12,8...the first one is questionable.the line looks fat until it gets to the arrow andthen disappears.assuming the line is still coming around the same place thenthe arrow would be cutting the line

the second in my view is no doubt a 12.

and the 3rd one is and 8 for sure.there's even a space between the 10 and the 12 ring and the arrow isnt even touching the bottome line!!


----------



## DCON

10,12,8, Look at target 3 again, the hole it created or a previous hole is a 10 but as the arrow sits it is clearly not touching the line, a big 8 fo sure!


----------



## THEDeerman

See, I find all this very interesting. No ones rules, IBO, ASA's,and I know for sure not ours with THE. Ever say anything about pulling, pushing, bending the lines. They all say very clearly outside of shaft touching outside of line shooter gets the higher score. To me all this is myths created by the upper end shooter digging for more points.

However, it is a part of 3D archery that can never be fixed. So, I explain it to a lot of new comer's that they have to make their own mind up over time. But, line calls from round to round are like the strike zone in a baseball game depends on the group making the call, just as it changes from inning to inning or game to game with an umpire behind the plate.

With the Raindance event last year Blake's management got us 35 volenteers to come keep score. I tought all of them most of them Women. On Friday night how to keep score with only two arrows. One barely touching and one about 1/64 of an inch out stuck in a target and I told them this is in this is out and don't let anyone tell you any different. I ask them after they all looked at the difference if they had any questions they all said no looked pretty simple to them. So, I explained that some of you would claim bending, pulling, pushing. So, if they say even a sliver like what I showed then to call it out. However if they had any question if it was closer than that then call it in and move on.

On the issue of the outside of a line, touching the inside of another, then the arrow touching the outside of the other talk about desperate for a score. Call me a jerk but if I am the one making the calls I don't play these games if its touching it's touching if it's not it's not. Period. This is also why in most cases I keep score and only make a call if I am asked to. I am to cut and dry on this whole issue.


----------



## reylamb

12, although I may see something differently with my eyes than is shown in this picture, and that may in fact be target texture I am looking at.

12, there is even a picture in the ASA tourguide just for that arrow.

10. Period. End of that discussion. There is nothing in the ASA rules that state the 12 and 10 must have common lines, and I have the rules right here in front of me. The rules do state, and I quote, "The arrow shaft must be touching any portion of the next highest scoring line to be scored for the highest value." Is there normally a gap at the bottom of the 12 and the 10? No. However, there is no inclusion in the rules that says they must, but the arrow must touch the higher scoring line to get that score. There is most definitely a gap on this particular target. As such it is not touching the 12 line. We can not go about scoring arrows because of where the lines should be, we score them where the lines are. Fair to the shooter? In this case no, but the rules are the rules. Heck, I have seen targets where the 12s are at 6 oclock and 12 oclock, not offset to the side.....should we score those targets where the rings should be also?

This might also be why I am normally asked to keep score and not call arrows in Open A...........I call em a little tighter than some.....


----------



## rossetti

12-12-10


----------



## Bubba Dean

Targets take a lot of abuse. You have lines disappearing because they are shot out. You have breaks in the foam. The only target that would upset me as a shooter is the javalina. That is just a real bad mid section. I checked my javalina target and the 12 & 10 are joined.


----------



## OA3D

10-12-10
#1 is a 12 ring but aren't different rings used each day? And certainly not a "kill" 12 which would be the center ring.
#3 appears to have line contact


----------



## LiteSpeed1

10
12
10


----------



## cath8r

This thread shows what is wrong with 3D on every level. 
#1. Is clearly out. By about 1/8". How any one can jailhouse lawyer themselves a 12 is beyond me. 
#2. Is a 10 maybe 12.
#3. Is a 10, baaaarely. 

Rules should be changed to breaking the line or touching the inside of the line.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

cath8r said:


> This thread shows what is wrong with 3D on every level.
> #1. Is clearly out. By about 1/8". How any one can jailhouse lawyer themselves a 12 is beyond me.
> #2. Is a 10 maybe 12.
> #3. Is a 10, baaaarely.
> 
> *Rules should be changed to breaking the line or touching the inside of the line.*




Absolutely! Or if you touch the line (or "pull") the line, you get the lower score.


----------



## Epack

reylamb said:


> 12, although I may see something differently with my eyes than is shown in this picture, and that may in fact be target texture I am looking at.
> 
> 12, there is even a picture in the ASA tourguide just for that arrow.
> 
> 10. Period. End of that discussion. There is nothing in the ASA rules that state the 12 and 10 must have common lines, and I have the rules right here in front of me. The rules do state, and I quote, "The arrow shaft must be touching any portion of the next highest scoring line to be scored for the highest value." Is there normally a gap at the bottom of the 12 and the 10? No. However, there is no inclusion in the rules that says they must, but the arrow must touch the higher scoring line to get that score. There is most definitely a gap on this particular target. As such it is not touching the 12 line. We can not go about scoring arrows because of where the lines should be, we score them where the lines are. Fair to the shooter? In this case no, but the rules are the rules. Heck, I have seen targets where the 12s are at 6 oclock and 12 oclock, not offset to the side.....should we score those targets where the rings should be also?
> 
> This might also be why I am normally asked to keep score and not call arrows in Open A...........I call em a little tighter than some.....














according to the 2008 asa scoring guide, anything touching the green line would be considered a 12, the 12 extends all the way down thru the 10 line, thats how the rules read thats how they shall be scored


----------



## Chop1

Daniel Boone said:


> There no doubt about that. Now make the call. I made sure everyone was touching the line.:wink: Your saying the outside of line dont score?
> DB


This thread has been amazing to me! I do not claim to have the best vision in the world, but it's very easy to see there is no space between the arrow shaft and the line on these targets. I mean, the man plainly said that he made sure the arrows were in the target so that they were touching the line. Why would he lie? How could you score otherwise? Why would you score otherwise? Now, I can see where some would argue about joining lines such as the second 2 targets, that is just conflicting ideas about the rules, but to say that the arrows are not touching the line? I can see that everyone does not see the same at all! All of our eyes must be very different It's kinda funny when you think about it. I mean, he did say he made SURE everone was touching the line...............


----------



## Duece Weaver

*Scoring*

1-10
2-12
3-8

Number one is not even close and number 3 could be touching for a 12 but it looks like there may be a little bit of foam between the arrow and the line. There is no way that these 3 arrows are all 12's!! If you think that they are I suggest that you not shoot in our group or your feelings are going to get hurt.


----------



## s_house

Duece Weaver said:


> 1-10
> 2-12
> 3-8
> 
> Number one is not even close and number 3 could be touching for a 12 but it looks like there may be a little bit of foam between the arrow and the line. There is no way that these 3 arrows are all 12's!! If you think that they are I suggest that you not shoot in our group or your feelings are going to get hurt.


Yep what he said. If you don't like it shoot better.Period.


----------



## Whitefeather

monty53 said:


> Last one is a 10. There's a separate line for the 12 and the arrow is nowhere near it.



That's how I see it too DB. I'd have to argue that "No Gap" theory.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Fair call*



Whitefeather said:


> That's how I see it too DB. I'd have to argue that "No Gap" theory.


Im amazed those think its an eight. Its diffiantly touching the outside line of the ten. To call it an eight is amazing to me. 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Duece*



Duece Weaver said:


> 1-10
> 2-12
> 3-8
> 
> Number one is not even close and number 3 could be touching for a 12 but it looks like there may be a little bit of foam between the arrow and the line. There is no way that these 3 arrows are all 12's!! If you think that they are I suggest that you not shoot in our group or your feelings are going to get hurt.


Theres not anyone that shoots with me at the pro ams that would call the last one an eight. Ten maybe because of the target. You would be wrong to call that target an eight. Its in the outside line for sure. I stuck the arrow in the target
DB


----------



## OkTrad

Like I stated earlier. There is no question these should be scored 10-12-10.

It clearly states in the rules that the arrow has to be touching the highest scoring line. It states nothing about pulling a line. So #1 clearly is a 10. #2 is touching the 12. #3 it may be a target defect but there is clearly two scoring lines with a gap in between so it is clearly a 10.


----------



## Whitefeather

Daniel Boone said:


> Theres not anyone that shoots with me at the pro ams that would call the last one an eight. Ten maybe because of the target. You would be wrong to call that target an eight. Its in the outside line for sure. I stuck the arrow in the target
> DB


I see it as a 10. Definately not a 12.


----------



## itbeso

*make the call*

Well, I'll be damned Boone. I recognize those as my arrows from the paris shoot.You and the others on target 1 called those as 10-10-8 for me and now you are trying to say they are twelves. I was robbed!:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Watch it now*



itbeso said:


> Well, I'll be damned Boone. I recognize those as my arrows from the paris shoot.You and the others on target 1 called those as 10-10-8 for me and now you are trying to say they are twelves. I was robbed!:wink:


Got to touch outside line. Begging dont help. You scored quite well I might add.:wink: Sure didnt like having to call your last five. That hurt like my two that day.
DB


----------



## itbeso

Two fives and you still shot 400. You did yourself proud bro. Hope to see you in Augusta.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Im ready*



itbeso said:


> Two fives and you still shot 400. You did yourself proud bro. Hope to see you in Augusta.


Shot a good round today. See ya there.
DB


----------



## JAVI

you boys shoot good next week y'all hear...:wink: Wish I could be there...


----------



## brbowman

sagecreek said:


> 12 12 10 :wink:



I agree


----------



## Elf Friend

Target one 12
target two-12
target three-10


----------



## Elf Friend

Target one 12
target two-12
target three-10


----------



## thunderbolt

Daniel Boone said:


> Im amazed those think its an eight. Its diffiantly touching the outside line of the ten. To call it an eight is amazing to me.
> DB


What is so amazing? You ask for opinions and that is what you get. Some agree, some don't!

Looks "out" to me:wink:


----------



## tx_poptart

Put em' in the center, they are easier to call that way....LOL


----------



## j3dgu

10 12 8


----------



## GCOD

12,12,10


----------



## gollie15

12, 12 10


----------



## cath8r

How does anyone seea 12 on #1?

I'm trying to get it but just can't see it. No wonder the scores are so high in some groups.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

cath8r said:


> How does anyone seea 12 on #1?
> 
> I'm trying to get it but just can't see it. No wonder the scores are so high in some groups.


I see a 10


----------



## baylward

10, 12, 10


----------



## sagecreek

cath8r said:


> How does anyone seea 12 on #1?
> 
> I'm trying to get it but just can't see it. No wonder the scores are so high in some groups.



The line has been streched. DB stated that the arrow is touching the line. How could it NOT be a 12?


----------



## Tallcatt

I just saw this even though it has gone 6 pages. I score a lot of arrows at ASA state events and a few at Pro/Ams. I go by the rule if you can't clearly call it out then its in and gets the higher score. 

Those are all 12's everyday all day long if I am calling them.:darkbeer:


----------



## cath8r

On target #1 there is a 1/16" to 1/8" gap between the arrow and 12 line. I still don't get it. Whatever you say boy's....


----------



## LiteSpeed1

Tallcatt said:


> Those are all 12's everyday all day long if I am calling them.:darkbeer:


How can you call #3 a twelve? There's a definate gap between the inside of the 10 ring and the outside of the 12.


----------



## okarcher

Because thats how the targets are called! The rings overlap even though you can't tell it from the pic.


----------



## Hinkelmonster

Daniel Boone said:


> Rules say it has to be touching the line. Not the inside or middle. Just touching the line.
> 
> Target 3 is diffiantly no 8 in my opionion.
> 
> Target 1 is touching the 12 line but its pulling it.
> 
> Target 2 would be my toughest call. One of the toughest calls in archery. That line there at that point is a 10 or 12 line. Scoring rules say touch the line at any point.
> DB



This is what's wrong with 3-D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The scores are 10, probably a 10 possibly a 12, and an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Scottie

Hinkelmonster said:


> This is what's wrong with 3-D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> The scores are 10, probably a 10 possibly a 12, and an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Exactly. I'd be ASHAMED to accept a 12 on any of those; I don't care what handicap, I mean ASA rules you're playing.


----------



## okarcher

Well play by your own rules then! Sorry not everyone lives up to your standards. Seems the line rule plays in IBO, 5 spot, vegas or any other org.


----------



## heilman181

WaterboyUT said:


> 10, 10, 8


I agree! That would be a 10-10-8 if you were shooting in my group! :wink:


----------



## Hinkelmonster

okarcher said:


> Well play by your own rules then! Sorry not everyone lives up to your standards. Seems the line rule plays in IBO, 5 spot, vegas or any other org.


I quoted a PRO talking about "PULLING" the line...............who then in the same breath talks about how the rules say it must touch the line!!!!

And I thought the NFAA had problems!!


----------



## Hinkelmonster

heilman181 said:


> I agree! That would be a 10-10-8 if you were shooting in my group! :wink:


I'd shoot with you anytime..........even 3-D!!!!


----------



## The Swami

Picture One - Solid 10. That is a texture line. The picture clearly shows the 12 line left of the arrow by a long ways. Look at the color and texture of the 12 line. It is constant all the way around. No pull and pulls don't count. I mean how far does it have to pull before it is out anyways??? The line the arrow is touching is a fur texture line. Compare it with the picture of the same target with the arrow out. The 12 line in both pictures is the same and you can see the supposed pulled line is not a line at all but texture.

Picture Two - This is a tougher one. Possibly a 12, but if it was my arrow, no one better call it a 12. I say 10.

Picture Three - Looks to be a 10 or 8. I would have to get a better look at it.

If they were my arrows they would be 10, 10, 8.

You boys need glasses on the first picture. Get rid of the fur texture lines and the scores should go down.


----------



## heilman181

Hinkelmonster said:


> I quoted a PRO talking about "PULLING" the line...............who then in the same breath talks about how the rules say it must touch the line!!!!
> 
> And I thought the NFAA had problems!!


Humm... one of those people that roughs the shaft with sand paper instead of some type of arrow lube. 50 grit sure will make you "pull" some lines! :wink:


----------



## heilman181

Hinkelmonster said:


> I'd shoot with you anytime..........even 3-D!!!!


To me, if you have to look that hard at it, you should have made a better shot! :wink:

Only time you get any love is if the target is so shot up that you cannot distinctly see the scoring rings.


----------



## X Hunter

Hinkelmonster said:


> This is what's wrong with 3-D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> The scores are 10, probably a 10 possibly a 12, and an 8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Agreed on these scores!!!!!

Target one 10!!!!!
Target two have to say 10 (pic isnt clear enough to make a good call)
Target three 8!!!!!

I never plaed the line strech game when you shot with me or the guys I shot with it had ti "touch" the line" (no space at all) none of this "streching the line yall speak of..... Nobody ever whined about it in open B 2 years ago either


----------



## Scottie

okarcher said:


> Well play by your own rules then! Sorry not everyone lives up to your standards. Seems the line rule plays in IBO, 5 spot, vegas or any other org.


It's nothing to do with standards. 3D use to be pretty simple, you draw the imaginary line for one score and it's either in the circle or it's not. Now they have all these shared line rules and pulling the arrow, etc.... It just makes scoring MORE controversial and easier for the "CLOSE ENOUGH" archers.

Let's also mention that this just adds to the time it takes to shoot. Score it where it lies I say. Bad breaks happen in every sport; deal with it.

10-10-8. Next target.


----------



## field14

Scottie said:


> It's nothing to do with standards. 3D use to be pretty simple, you draw the imaginary line for one score and it's either in the circle or it's not. Now they have all these shared line rules and pulling the arrow, etc.... It just makes scoring MORE controversial and easier for the "CLOSE ENOUGH" archers.
> 
> Let's also mention that this just adds to the time it takes to shoot. Score it where it lies I say. Bad breaks happen in every sport; deal with it.
> 
> 10-10-8. Next target.


10, 10, 8, and NO DOUBT IN MY MIND ABOUT IT. NONE of the arrows are even close to the next higher scoring line or area....not even close to warrant a second look. You call the arrow as it LIES...not with the aid of the extra HOLE...the arrow shaft edge as it LIES in the target.

Look above in RED...Yep, 3-D used to be SIMPLE...then they brought MONEY into the game...then "HALF PRO" (as stupid as half-pregnant). THen using UMBRELLAS to screen the shooters...not from the rain or sun...but from the WIND, for pete-sakes.
They 'used to" complain field took too long at 4 or 5 hours for 112 shots....so they went to "simpler" 3-D. NOW...the IBO gives you TWO minutes for ONE shot...every shot and at big IBO events you can spend 4 HOURS to shoot TEN shots. ASA....takes 5 to7 HOURS to get all 40 shots in.

Now we are "pulling lines"...and many clubs can't put the targets quartering away...because some BOZOS will score the shots where the POINT LIES and NOT where the arrow lies on the surface of the target...oh, yet...SOME will draw an imaginary line from the point of the arrow and claim it is a 10 or 12...because of the angle of the target, they say, "Well if it was a real animal, my arrow point is in the vital, kill, 12, 14, so I should get the points for it." THIS IS FACT, I"ve seen this numerous times!!....So many clubs are NOT putting the shots quartering away or at ANY angle...just sraight atcha.
Then there is the "eraser" or "heavy pencil' scoring that is going on too. Or using a FAT SHAFT to block others out of the 12 or 14 ring if you are shooting first. Or *****ing at someone that chooses to use black vanes and nocks.

Will they "self-police"....??? Nope, but the associations want 'em to....and of course NOBODY comes forth about the violations that occur...especially on TIME LIMITS at nearly every shoot.

What a mess....now you shoot "UP"????? It is as bad as the first question on an indoor round when someone shoots a 300...."How many X's did you shoot?" Then, if the X-count is in the 50's....it isn't "great shooting, Joe." Nope...we gotta know how many "INSIDE OUT X's" you shoot.

Seems NOBODY enjoys the game anymore...it is all about "PULLING LINES." AND ego trips, and who is the best, making the best people that have only been in the game a few years....trash talking, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

No wonder people are flocking OUT of archery instead of growing into it. Blast away people...but this game is destroying itself from within...and FIELD/TARGET archery isn't the ONLY venue that this is happening FROM WITHIN either.

field14


----------



## LiteSpeed1

okarcher said:


> Well play by your own rules then! Sorry not everyone lives up to your standards. Seems the line rule plays in IBO, 5 spot, vegas or any other org.


Why so defensive? Maybe you are one of those shooters that takes this game too seriously and needs to rely on "pulling" lines. People are just stating their opinions.


----------



## field14

"Well play by your own rules then! Sorry not everyone lives up to your standards. Seems the line rule plays in IBO, 5 spot, vegas or any other org."

Perhaps YOU should start by playing by the REAL RULES....that clearly state how the arrow is to be scored. I'll betcha you are one of those that touches the arrow to "score it" too....probably not knowing that technically, if you touch that arrow OR the TARGET before ALL the arrows are properly scored and recorded...that ALL those arrows are ZEROES!

Nope...touching the line is NOT the same as "pulling" the line...and arrows do NOT "pull" lines...they either touch them or they don't...AS THEY LIE IN THE TARGET...not how they "entered" the target or where they "USED TO BE"...no....it is where they lie NOW that you are trying to score them.

I've shot all the venues, and frankly, only in 3-D do I see so much controversy and arguing and "pulling" lines....and pencil whipping, etc. Only in 3-D do you see a couple guys go to the target to "score and pull" arrows...and scores being called from the target up to the top of the hill or end of the shooting lane to the official scorers that are standing up there INSTEAD OF DOWN AT THE TARGET double checking...like they are supposed to do! oh, yes....see THAT all the time....the scorers aren't even close to the target...not so much in BIG SHOOTS (I've seen it happen there on occasion)...but in LOCAL shoots...it is rampant!

Must be that the two minutes for one shot tuckered the people out so much that they need MORE REST between targets, so they can't walk down there to do their jobs and score/pull correctly and PER THE RULES....or something. Or maybe those extra shooting chairs and paraphenalia indeed are too heavy and bulky and they would rather sit and score away from the target than get their carcasses down there to do it PER THE RULES.

field14:tongue::wink:


----------



## okarcher

I have fun when I shoot but yes I do take competition seriously. Just as I have in all the sports I've ever played. I enjoyed playing them all, but I took them very seriously because those who did won, got college scholorships, set themselves apart from those who just played to have something to do. I didn't hours running, practicing and in the weight room not to have taken any sport I played seriously. Just as I don't spend thousands of $$ a year on equipment, hours upon hours practicing shooting and judging and all the time and $$ it takes traveling to these events not to take them seriously. I enjoy myself every time I go and love meeting new people and seeing old friends. But do I take this game seriously you bet or I would never travel to a national event. Sorry if that offends anyone but thats my mentality. Im not looking for free points to be given either, but I'll take everyone of them I can when they should be called within the rules. I don't make them but I play by them and take every advantage I can from them. If you don't then thats your pergotive(spelling?).


----------



## okarcher

Field first of all im talking about only pro/am events not locals all I use them for is practice. And I'll run a marathon against you any day of the week. We score before pulling arrows or its a zero. And from these post and your post in the past your just a blow hard and really don't deserve anymore of my time. Last post on this subject.


----------



## Chop1

WOW! You guys still arguing over this? The man said he made sure all of them were touching the line. I believe him. No evidence in the pics to say otherwise.


----------



## Avalon

I've heard the term "pulling" the line in 3d and "creasing" the line in spots. NEITHER are touching the line. We are then focusing on arrow texture to make them "grab" foam instead where the arrow actually hits.

Pulling the line is NOT touching the line.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

Chop1 said:


> WOW! You guys still arguing over this? The man said he made sure all of them were touching the line. I believe him. No evidence in the pics to say otherwise.


OK...he said all arrows were touching the line. How does an arrow touching the line and the line touching the line = 12? 

PS..This is target/or picture number 3, and the lines don't touch.


----------



## ky hammer

if i were shooting in an asa tournament and if these were arrows in my group and i were calling them they would all be 12's. the rules say that all u have to do is touch the line and all of them are touching. the #3 arrow is touching the outside of the 10 line directly under the 12 and that has bee scored a 12 ever since the asa started. this i am sure of because i have been shooting their tournaments since they started lol.


----------



## field14

okarcher said:


> Field first of all im talking about only pro/am events not locals all I use them for is practice. And I'll run a marathon against you any day of the week. We score before pulling arrows or its a zero. And from these post and your post in the past your just a blow hard and really don't deserve anymore of my time. Last post on this subject.


Yep, typical "coach"....USE every advantage you can squander...and PUSH or BEND the rules to the limit.. Better yet...teach 'em to BREAK THE RULES...but just don't get caught at it. Afterall, if they don't SEE it, how can it be a violation?
Whatever happened to "It isn't whether you WIN or LOSE..it is HOW YOU PLAYED THE GAME that counts?" That concept doesn't exist anymore, now does it? Now it is "2nd place is for LOSERS." or "Do what you can to WIN, cuz nothing else matters."

Of COURSE you would now say you would run a marathon against me any day of the week...you are 35 and I'm 61....there you are again, Pushing your advantage...

Question for you? Have YOU ever personally run a marathon in your life? I HOPE you have...cuz....this old fart...HAS DONE IT...Not in what anyone would classify as even a decent time...but I FINISHED what I STARTED....and ran every step of that marathon to boot. Of course, that was done when I was young and full of pee an vinegar.

USING the rules...and ABUSING the rules....well...are two different things....and those pics we are discussing....IF the person(s) involved were given the higher values...then the rules were ABUSED and not USED nor FOLLOWED.

But then, many of today's "younger set" have the concept that rules are for fools and are made to be intentionally broken. AND....if you don't like 'em...just keep breakin' 'em and eventually those making the rules will just up and change them...cuz YOU are "special."

Now, how about a "round of applause" or a "reward" cuz YOU answered a question correctly, or didn't disrupt something??:wink::tongue: OR maybe looking up INTEGRITY and applying THAT definition to your competitive spirit?

field14


----------



## heilman181

I feel that the arrow should be CUTTING THE INSIDE OF THE SCORING ZONE, not just pulling outside the line.


----------



## okarcher

*I know what I said!*

I know I said I wasn't going to post on this subject any more but I was looking thru my 08 ASA guide and found this! Take a look at how #3 should be scored. Do you see the red lines thats how its scored.


----------



## field14

okarcher said:


> I know I said I wasn't going to post on this subject any more but I was looking thru my 08 ASA guide and found this! Take a look at how #3 should be scored. Do you see the red lines thats how its scored.


Fine and good and PROOF that #3 is still NOT the higher scoring value....You can CLEARLY see space between the arrow AS IT LIES and that outside edge of the scoring circle...it isn't even CLOSE. The "ASA instructions" clearly show that the #3 arrow in the pic is OUT.

field14


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## LiteSpeed1

And there is a space between the inside of the 10 ring and the outside of the 12 ring. They do not touch. They do not overlap.


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## cath8r

So by definition as per ASA score guide, #1 is definitely a 10. It is not touching the line.


----------



## bigtim

*121212*

121212


----------



## field14

Unbelievably LOOSE scoring by many responding....WAY loose.....makes you wonder how CONSISTENT scoring is across the board from group to group...and who the REAL winners really are?

But of course, what happens on the course, stays on the course, what happens in the group(s) stays in the group(s)....and "self-policing" fails again.

field14


----------



## Walleye Joe

I'd call them:

12
12
12
 ...if you go by the diagram above. Otherwise I would give #3 a 10


----------



## LiteSpeed1

10
12
10


----------



## Bowtech54

*scoring*

12-12-12 Looks like all are touching the lines. When in doubt the shooter should get the advantage.


----------



## Field1

Don't you guys think its funny that if you don't call them like field14 then for some reason you wrong. Maybe thats just how other people call them is how they see them. Who died and made you the all mighty. I would call them all 12's and my calling is by no means "loose". I call them how I see them.


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## LiteSpeed1

LiteSpeed1 said:


> 10
> 12
> 10


And that's being generous!


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Guys*

I have shot three events in ASA Pro class now.

I garantee these arrows would be called a 12 all day long and the pros call them right by the rules.
DB


----------



## Guest

As I posted earlier...I saw it as 3x12= 36 points


If its in the line..it has to be called....DB stated they were in the lines...have never-ever had a reason to doubt him....


----------



## LiteSpeed1

*A*djustable *S*coring *A*llowed


----------



## field14

LiteSpeed1 said:


> *A*djustable *S*coring *A*llowed


Now that right there is downright funny! ROFLMAO!

I guess "close" in ASA is like....Marking it with a grease pencil and cutting it with an axe....for accuracy.

Or...."Close only counts in horseshoes, hand-grenades, nuclear weapons, and ASA line pulling.."

Looking and re-looking at those pictures...I could NEVER in good conscience TAKE 12's on any of those, let alone GIVE someone a 12 for ANY of them.

Guess people now call them as they fell...NOT as they LIE, or something....maybe there is a super line widener call I don't know about?

field14:tongue::wink:


----------



## NCSUarcher

*Easy Answer*

Look everybody no matter what your *"personal"* feelings are by the ASA rules they are all 12's!!!!!!!!!! Case in point look at your ASA guide book that was sent to every ASA member this year and in the first couple pages there is a pretty diagram that shows exactly how to call 12's and the ASA is very generous in the lines. Argument Over!

I plan on cutting this diagram out for Kentcuky to make sure I call them correctly and my group will see why I call them the way I do. I called a couple 12's 10's this weekend at Augusta because I had not seen this diagram yet, but this is what we as ASA members are to call the points as!


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Pros call them right*



field14 said:


> Now that right there is downright funny! ROFLMAO!
> 
> I guess "close" in ASA is like....Marking it with a grease pencil and cutting it with an axe....for accuracy.
> 
> Or...."Close only counts in horseshoes, hand-grenades, nuclear weapons, and ASA line pulling.."
> 
> Looking and re-looking at those pictures...I could NEVER in good conscience TAKE 12's on any of those, let alone GIVE someone a 12 for ANY of them.
> 
> Guess people now call them as they fell...NOT as they LIE, or something....maybe there is a super line widener call I don't know about?
> 
> field14:tongue::wink:


Im having so much fun shooting with these guys. They call them right and everyone agrees with the calls. There pros for good reasons. They know the rules and know how to call arrows 100% right. I have not even seen one call not made right or questioned in all three events. Most these Senior Pros have plenty of exsperiance calling arrows. 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Your right*



NCSUarcher said:


> Look evverybody no matter what your *"personal"* feelings are by the ASA rules they are all 12's!!!!!!!!!! Case in point look at your ASA guide book that was sent to every ASA member this year and in the first couple pages there is a pretty diagram that shows exactly how to call 12's and the ASA is very generous in the lines. Argument Over!


Rules are clearly written. Targets in Augusta all had good lines and easy to call.
DB


----------



## field14

NCSUarcher said:


> Look everybody no matter what your *"personal"* feelings are by the ASA rules they are all 12's!!!!!!!!!! Case in point look at your ASA guide book that was sent to every ASA member this year and in the first couple pages there is a pretty diagram that shows exactly how to call 12's and the ASA is very generous in the lines. Argument Over!
> 
> I plan on cutting this diagram out for Kentcuky to make sure I call them correctly and my group will see why I call them the way I do. I called a couple 12's 10's this weekend at Augusta because I had not seen this diagram yet, but this is what we as ASA members are to call the points as!



NOT when you can CLEARLY see space between the edge of the arrow and where it LIES and the line....no way they are 12's. I personally wouldn't take them as 12's, let alone give them as 12's.

Daniel..>NEVER, EVER, say 100% right on calls, 100% of the time...Sure, it is "right' when it goes onto the score-card...but you and I both know...there ARE "discussions" and "differences of opinions" on calls ALL THE TIME....and you can agree to the higher score as a group....and still have one of the four say it is OUT....that is NOT 100%.\

NOBODY is perfect...not ME, not YOU, and not the PROS just cuz they are pros...does NOT make them perfect....And there are KNOWN instances of "rules violations" not being "called" or enforced....so......

Everyone else can "coupé les cheveux en quatres" So can I.

I'll stick with my call of NO 12's in any of the photos.

field14:tongue::wink:


----------



## Ravenshorn

*How I’d Call ‘Em*

10-12-8

These photos are not the best in the world so everyone's call is going to be highly subjective based on their own personal experience and how hard core or charitable they may be feeling that day. :santa: 

DB, be careful what you ask for. When you ask for everyone's opinion... that's exactly what you'll get. This thread started out with good intentions; I assume to educate, but the ground rules weren't very well thought out. When you attempt to educate, your evidence and examples must be indisputable. Based on what I see, I'd call 'em 10-12-8, but like other comments herein I reserve the right to change that opinion upon closer inspection from multiple angles.

Also, I understand you said you personally put your arrows in the target and that you swear they are touching the lines. I think a point that needs to be made here is this… it doesn't matter whether you put the arrows in the target from 50 yards or just stood there and shoved 'em in the target by hand... you still can't expect everyone to see things your way. Over the past 30 years I’ve shot with pros and amateurs alike that would argue with a stop sign if they thought it would get them an extra point. Funny thing… the more arguing that goes on, the less charitable I feel. I say enough! Call ‘em and move on to the next target. :walk:

"Pulling" or "pushing" the line is just another argument with a stop sign. Scoring the arrow where it lays means just that… you score the arrow in relation to where the line would have been had it not been distorted. It doesn't matter whether the target material is paper or rubber. Case in point; I have seen many spot faces where the X was eaten out in ways that clearly distorted the line beyond where it normally would be. In every case the arrow was called according to where it was, not by the position of the distorted line. I’ve never seen it written anywhere that an arrow “pulling” or “pushing” the line would be given the higher score. When it does, I’m going to make a mint with my latex rubber five spot and Vegas faces. :icon_joker: :wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Opionion*



Ravenshorn said:


> 10-12-8
> 
> These photos are not the best in the world so everyone's call is going to be highly subjective based on their own personal experience and how hard core or charitable they may be feeling that day. :santa:
> 
> DB, be careful what you ask for. When you ask for everyone's opinion... that's exactly what you'll get. This thread started out with good intentions; I assume to educate, but the ground rules weren't very well thought out. When you attempt to educate, your evidence and examples must be indisputable. Based on what I see, I'd call 'em 10-12-8, but like other comments herein I reserve the right to change that opinion upon closer inspection from multiple angles.
> 
> Also, I understand you said you personally put your arrows in the target and that you swear they are touching the lines. I think a point that needs to be made here is this… it doesn't matter whether you put the arrows in the target from 50 yards or just stood there and shoved 'em in the target by hand... you still can't expect everyone to see things your way. Over the past 30 years I’ve shot with pros and amateurs alike that would argue with a stop sign if they thought it would get them an extra point. Funny thing… the more arguing that goes on, the less charitable I feel. I say enough! Call ‘em and move on to the next target. :walk:
> 
> "Pulling" or "pushing" the line is just another argument with a stop sign. Scoring the arrow where it lays means just that… you score the arrow in relation to where the line would have been had it not been distorted. It doesn't matter whether the target material is paper or rubber. Case in point; I have seen many spot faces where the X was eaten out in ways that clearly distorted the line beyond where it normally would be. In every case the arrow was called according to where it was, not by the position of the distorted line. I’ve never seen it written anywhere that an arrow “pulling” or “pushing” the line would be given the higher score. When it does, I’m going to make a mint with my latex rubber five spot and Vegas faces. :icon_joker: :wink:



Now that I have shot with these pros. They call them right. I hve seen it all and never question the guys calling th arrows. But make no mistake those pros call them right. I took the right angle with the camera. I did this thread because I do feel the pros call the arrows right. They call it touching and touching is the key word. Many feel the arrow has to cut the line. And yse if the line pulls with the arrow they call it in. Good thread and Ill do it again. Always good for everyone to disscuss this. You call them like you see them. 
DB


----------



## redman

10 - 12 - 10


----------



## LiteSpeed1

Daniel Boone said:


> Now that I have shot with these pros. They call them right. I hve seen it all and never question the guys calling th arrows. But make no mistake those pros call them right.
> DB


Why are they called right DB? Because "pro's" are calling them?


----------



## sagecreek

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Why are they called right DB? Because "pro's" are calling them?


Because they are TOUCHING the lines like the rule says! 

Why are some of you guys having a hard time with this. Yes, the lines get DISTORTED sometimes with the softer foam, but they are definately TOUCHING the line, thus getting the higher score. And for the ones seeing "hair" between the arrow and line on #1, you ARE mistaken. It's a 12.


----------



## rudeman

If #3 is a 12, then you 3D-ers need to get Mackenzie or whomever to put separate lines for the 10 and the 12. That "might" be a 10. No way do I see it as a 12. (I know, I'm not "pro" and they're right *all *the time.)


----------



## shoeminator

10, 12, 8 from the pics. were the other arrows pulled? You have to call them with the other arrows in the target. Maybe shooting alone?


----------



## field14

LiteSpeed1 said:


> Why are they called right DB? Because "pro's" are calling them?


Guess shooting in the "PRO" division puts you on a pedestal and everyone needs to "bow 3 times" and you thank them for "the honor of their very presence" on the range or something.....:tongue::wink:

Maybe they put on their trousers differently, and have this newly acquired super-human quality we mere mortals don't get unless we join the elite...???

Nope...if that line is not TOUCHED and you SEE space between the edge of that arrow shaft and the line...it is NOT IN. CALLED AS THEY LIE....not how they went in.

Although, I guess if I went "soft" and gave myself those kinds of calls....my position on the leaderboards when I shot 3-D would be a bit higher....

Of course, if you shoot 'em in the MIDDLE, then "line pulling" doesn't come into play at all. Which, if you live in the rarified atmosphere of the PRO division, these sorts of calls are not often necessary?:wink::tongue:

I think I'll pay up Pro Dues...so that my eyesight will immediately jump and improve; it would save me the cost of an optomotrist appointment and new prescription...so it would be worth it just for that alone.

Of course, I'm being facetious...and onery....but I STILL would call all three of those arrows OUT. Even if I was shooting PRO...they are OUT. I might lose the argument at the target...but wouldn't change my opinion...they are OUT as I see it in those photos.

If the other arrows were pulled and you are just now getting to scoring those...YOU NET ZERO for those arrows. The RULES are the RULES...and the PROS know ALL the rules 100% certainty on that.(and tricks.)

field14


----------



## Strutter Cutter

*10-12-10....just because you say it's touching*

#1---You're confusing animal texture with the line the way that I see it. If you'll look 90 or 180 degrees at the actual line, you'll see it's actual width. You're trying to make it wider using animal texture. This would be inconsistant with the remainder of the line which is narrower. Your photo is blurry too!

#2---12, no doubt



#3---On this particular target, the 12 line and the 10 line do not connect. There is animal between lines. This target at best is a 10 and that's just because YOU say it's touching. I don't have the correct angle to look down the shaft to see if it would actually touch the line.


----------



## LiteSpeed1

sagecreek said:


> Because they are TOUCHING the lines like the rule says!
> 
> Why are some of you guys having a hard time with this. Yes, the lines get DISTORTED sometimes with the softer foam, but they are definately TOUCHING the line, thus getting the higher score. And for the ones seeing "hair" between the arrow and line on #1, you ARE mistaken. It's a 12.


I'm not having a hard time. I see target number 3 as out, maybe a 10. That's my opinion. You see it as in, a 12, that's your opinion.


----------



## Reed

the only one that I see as close is 3, but I was not there to look at it, so if it was called a 12 ok then. It could be the the camera angle is making some people see this space that everyone is talking about

hell if someone called it a 12 and I thought it was out I would take it if the group did not say anything, I think that most peopel would to:wink:


----------



## Tecumseh

...If #1 and #3 are touching the sharp edge/peak of the line then: 12 Low - 12 Low - 12 Low, based on you ASA picture. But you should call it.


----------



## SPECTRE

Hinkelmonster said:


> I quoted a PRO talking about "PULLING" the line...............who then in the same breath talks about how the rules say it must touch the line!!!!
> 
> And I thought the NFAA had problems!!


LOL, he quoted me from the STAN open.

If it's not TOUCHING the line then the higher value should not be awarded. In 3D or spots.......... there's no such thing as "pulling" the line. It must TOUCH the line to be awarded the higher score value.

You want the higher value, make a better shot next time.:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Because thats the way the rules say there in.*



LiteSpeed1 said:


> Why are they called right DB? Because "pro's" are calling them?


Touching the line. I stuck them in the target. 

If you tell me you stuck them in the target line and drew a line where the outside line was like I did. I would take your word. Im sure you know more than pros that have been shooting archery over 35 years.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I totally agree with 3*



Reed said:


> the only one that I see as close is 3, but I was not there to look at it, so if it was called a 12 ok then. It could be the the camera angle is making some people see this space that everyone is talking about
> 
> hell if someone called it a 12 and I thought it was out I would take it if the group did not say anything, I think that most peopel would to:wink:



My target for whatever reason seems to not be exactly like most Javelinas. Some of talk about it in Augusta. We even commented how well Mckensies is working to get the lines more alighned right on ever target. I felt the line on the targets there were cut a little deeper.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*This was talked about by some of us at Augusta*



LiteSpeed1 said:


> I'm not having a hard time. I see target number 3 as out, maybe a 10. That's my opinion. You see it as in, a 12, that's your opinion.


Most of us agreed looking at targets right in front of us that my javelina lines are not exactly like the new targets we looked at in Georgia. All agreed it would be a 10 but maybe not a 12. After talking with some there I tend to see there point. They all agree if it touchs where the 12 and 10 meet on any side of line its the next greater value. ASA rule is clear as a bell on this.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Strutter Cutter*



Strutter Cutter said:


> #1---You're confusing animal texture with the line the way that I see it. If you'll look 90 or 180 degrees at the actual line, you'll see it's actual width. You're trying to make it wider using animal texture. This would be inconsistant with the remainder of the line which is narrower. Your photo is blurry too!
> 
> #2---12, no doubt
> 
> 
> 
> #3---On this particular target, the 12 line and the 10 line do not connect. There is animal between lines. This target at best is a 10 and that's just because YOU say it's touching. I don't have the correct angle to look down the shaft to see if it would actually touch the line.



On target 1
I stuck it half way in the line and pulled untell the arrow was as far as it could go without not touching the line. I do understand how some see it out by the picture but its clearly touching the line and line is distorted by the arrow pulling it. Toughest call in archery. I did not see one arrow pulling a tagrte this weekend.
DB
D


----------



## CutTheLoop

Daniel Boone said:


> Now that I have shot with these pros. They call them right. I hve seen it all and never question the guys calling th arrows. But make no mistake those pros call them right. I took the right angle with the camera. I did this thread because I do feel the pros call the arrows right. They call it touching and touching is the key word. Many feel the arrow has to cut the line. And yse if the line pulls with the arrow they call it in. Good thread and Ill do it again. Always good for everyone to disscuss this. You call them like you see them.
> DB





I don't shoot the "Pro" class, but I shoot with a few Pros all the time and have shown these pics to them and an ASA rep... they all called them 10,12,10.

And one of my best friends is a Pro, and for reasons such as this is why he chooses to not shoot in the Seniors division. I don't see how them being Senior "Pros" makes them infoulable or right 100% of the time anymore than you being correct because you've shot a whole 3 tournaments with them.

Since the title of this thread was "... you make the call", it would be interesting to have put this as a poll, and see what the majority opinion was.

I still believe, like many who have posted here stated, the "line pulling" is a bunch of crap, you either hit that scoring zone or not... if one has to resort to trying that hard to impose some flaky(at best) rule to atain 2 points then perhaps they should work more on their shooting than their arrow scoring.

And I still contest the "oops....I gotta 14 rule". Attempting a 14 should be announced and intentional. If by the line pulling logic, we are to award 2 points for a "good shot" and the shooter should get the score he/she "deserved", then we certainly shouldn't award 9,6,4,or 2 more for a flubbed shot... and we've all seen it.

If we're going to score for luck, a jerked 14, then we should also score for bad luck... a squeaky questionable 12 "pulling a line" in no mans land should be what it unluckily is......a 10.


----------



## NCSUarcher

*Rings*

People, 3-12's per ASA rules! Now as far as NFAA or IBO I don't know. Now McKenzie needs to redo the lines so that there are seperate defined untouching 12 and 10 rings, in that case we would have a different score. But as it stands per the ASA diagram they are 3 12's all day and all night long.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Im just giving you my opionion*



FOBsKILL said:


> I don't shoot the "Pro" class, but I shoot with a few Pros all the time and have shown these pics to them and an ASA rep... they all called them 10,12,10.
> 
> And one of my best friends is a Pro, and for reasons such as this is why he chooses to not shoot in the Seniors division. I don't see how them being Senior "Pros" makes them infoulable or right 100% of the time anymore than you being correct because you've shot a whole 3 tournaments with them.
> 
> Since the title of this thread was "... you make the call", it would be interesting to have put this as a poll, and see what the majority opinion was.
> 
> I still believe, like many who have posted here stated, the "line pulling" is a bunch of crap, you either hit that scoring zone or not... if one has to resort to trying that hard to impose some flaky(at best) rule to atain 2 points then perhaps they should work more on their shooting than their arrow scoring.
> 
> And I still contest the "oops....I gotta 14 rule". Attempting a 14 should be announced and intentional. If by the line pulling logic, we are to award 2 points for a "good shot" and the shooter should get the score he/she "deserved", then we certainly shouldn't award 9,6,4,or 2 more for a flubbed shot... and we've all seen it.
> 
> If we're going to score for luck, a jerked 14, then we should also score for bad luck... a squeaky questionable 12 "pulling a line" in no mans land should be what it unluckily is......a 10.


Ill say it again. The pros call the arrows 100% right from everthing I have seen. If you dont think these are very close 12. I feel different about it than you. Many at Augusta said it was a good thread and couldnt believe most called them out. But you call them like you think:wink: But anytime you think the pros are giving points just come shoot the class. I happen to ask many about line calling all the time at these larger events. Never know unless you ask. Never no Opps in my scores because I never call my arrows. But Im damn sure not giving something you dont deserve either. We call right in my group of shooters who all travel and shoot all over. Just ask many of your Texans that know me and have shot with me.
DB
DB


----------



## Lonestar63

Daniel Boone said:


> We call right in my group of shooters who all travel and shoot all over. Just ask many of *your Texans* that know me and have shot with me.
> DB
> DB


YOUR Texans? I shoot with a lot of Okies, but i dont see them as YOUR Okies. I see them as friends i enjoy archery with. I've made friends from all over the country shooting in ASA, even Mexico.
For my opinion, all those targets are 12's. Picture #1 is a little tough because of the pull, but its the only one i see thats questionable. Picture #2 is easy. ASA rule book says thats a 12.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*We talk all the timehere and kid amoung us*



Lonestar63 said:


> YOUR Texans? I shoot with a lot of Okies, but i dont see them as YOUR Okies. I see them as friends i enjoy archery with. I've made friends from all over the country shooting in ASA, even Mexico.
> For my opinion, all those targets are 12's. Picture #1 is a little tough because of the pull, but its the only one i see thats questionable. Picture #2 is easy. ASA rule book says thats a 12.


Texans and Okies always kid each other and its just a phrase. Nothing more or less. Certianly dont make any more than what it is.
DB


----------



## LiteSpeed1

FOBsKILL said:


> I don't shoot the "Pro" class, but I shoot with a few Pros all the time and have shown these pics to them and an ASA rep... they all called them 10,12,10.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Funny, that's the same scores I picked days ago.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Last time*

This is clearly the outside line. I placed the arrow well over halfway into the line. Then pulled it. This is the line. Sorry some cant see from the picture but it is the line. Carbon Express arrows grap those lines often like glue. If it touchs its in.
DB


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> This is clearly the outside line. I placed the arrow well over halfway into the line. Then pulled it. This is the line. Sorry some cant see from the picture but it is the line. Carbon Express arrows grap those lines often like glue. If it touchs its in.
> DB


Dan, you are deomonstrating now that suddenly the ROUND circle gets OBLONGATED and OUT OF ROUND....????? No way that you can call this arrow IN. Your black line clearly shows a WAY OUT OF ROUND circle line.....and THAT isn't even close to following the path of the CORRECT CIRCLE...not an ellipse, or whatever out of round shape this is.

Circles are ROUND, and there is no way you can CHANGE the 'roundness" of the circle to 1/8" or MORE out of round so you can call an arrow "pulling the line"...circles are circles and NOT oblong....they CANNOT be changed to oblong to "pull a line." Doesn't work that way.

IF you found exact center of that circle, and then measured from the exact center of the CIRCLE to the edge of the arrow...the arrow would be OUT of the ROUND circle that is there for scoring. Cannot change the shape of the circle to PULL a line...especially by that far as your inserted black line indicates....

Now, find the exact CENTER of the CIRCLE and measure to the edge of the arrow...I'd bet you will find that the arrows are OUT. Can't have a CIRCLE go out of round for your convenience, or the shooter's convenience.

Arrows are called where they end up in the target (where they LIE) and NOT by some oblong thingy or where the arrow hole started...but to the edge of the arrow WHERE IT LIES at the _surface_ of the target or target face.

Of course, in calling the arrow, one should FOLLOW THE CIRCLE...and NOT oblongate it...from both sides of the CIRCLE LINE to the arrow...if the arrow AS IT LIES is touching the outer edge of the CIRCLE LINE (non-oblongated), then it is IN; otherwise, it is OUT.

field14


----------



## LiteSpeed1

Daniel Boone said:


> Touching the line. I stuck them in the target.
> 
> If you tell me you stuck them in the target line and drew a line where the outside line was like I did. I would take your word. Im sure you know more than pros that have been shooting archery over 35 years.
> DB


First here DB..I've seen your picture, no way am I trying to pick a fight. I'm not questioning the arrows you put in the targets. I'm questioning your statement about how the pros scored at a shoot. I'm assuming Augusta. You said they "called them right". I don't doubt that. The way you say it implies that because "pros" say they're in, they're in, end of discussion. You said everyone should call them as they see them, OK...all people just don't see them they same as you. After all, the title of your thread is "You make the call 12, 10 or 8". Second..you're right I don't know more than pros that have been shooting for over 35 years, I've only been shooting 34. Give me another year.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Field 14*



field14 said:


> Dan, you are deomonstrating now that suddenly the ROUND circle gets OBLONGATED and OUT OF ROUND....????? No way that you can call this arrow IN. Your black line clearly shows a WAY OUT OF ROUND circle line.....and THAT isn't even close to following the path of the CORRECT CIRCLE...not an ellipse, or whatever out of round shape this is.
> 
> Circles are ROUND, and there is no way you can CHANGE the 'roundness" of the circle to 1/8" or MORE out of round so you can call an arrow "pulling the line"...circles are circles and NOT oblong....they CANNOT be changed to oblong to "pull a line." Doesn't work that way.
> 
> IF you found exact center of that circle, and then measured from the exact center of the CIRCLE to the edge of the arrow...the arrow would be OUT of the ROUND circle that is there for scoring. Cannot change the shape of the circle to PULL a line...especially by that far as your inserted black line indicates....
> 
> Now, find the exact CENTER of the CIRCLE and measure to the edge of the arrow...I'd bet you will find that the arrows are OUT. Can't have a CIRCLE go out of round for your convenience, or the shooter's convenience.
> 
> Arrows are called where they end up in the target (where they LIE) and NOT by some oblong thingy or where the arrow hole started...but to the edge of the arrow WHERE IT LIES at the _surface_ of the target or target face.
> 
> Of course, in calling the arrow, one should FOLLOW THE CIRCLE...and NOT oblongate it...from both sides of the CIRCLE LINE to the arrow...if the arrow AS IT LIES is touching the outer edge of the CIRCLE LINE (non-oblongated), then it is IN; otherwise, it is OUT.
> 
> field14


Digital picture makes that line look clearly larger than it is. I garantee its in and pulling the line to the right. Ill use a digital video to prove it next time just so you cn see that pulling the line clearly happens often and should be called in. Arrows will pull the circle out of round and thats a fact. ASA rules say all it has to do is touch, this isnt indoor where one has to imigine a line which by the way gets called wrong so many times its silly. I have had so many arrows called in in indoor when they were clearly out. Thats why everyone says hey get the judge to call it you never know. Arrow clearly in and I know I put it there. 
DB
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*The word pro means exsperianced*



LiteSpeed1 said:


> First here DB..I've seen your picture, no way am I trying to pick a fight. I'm not questioning the arrows you put in the targets. I'm questioning your statement about how the pros scored at a shoot. I'm assuming Augusta. You said they "called them right". I don't doubt that. The way you say it implies that because "pros" say they're in, they're in, end of discussion. You said everyone should call them as they see them, OK...all people just don't see them they same as you. After all, the title of your thread is "You make the call 12, 10 or 8". Second..you're right I don't know more than pros that have been shooting for over 35 years, I've only been shooting 34. Give me another year.



In senior pro that means lots of years in the pro class. Take it for what ever. I know these guys and know they call them right and dont give away points and you will hopefully oneday join those ranks and call them right just like they do.
DB


----------



## LiteSpeed1

DB---Here's a question. Say you are the first shooter and your arrow barely touches the outer edge of a line. Second shooter shoots to the inside and "pulls" or distorts the line away from your arrow. Do you get the lower score or the higher score because it would be in if the other arrow hadn't "pulled" it? Not trying to be a smart_ _ _, just curious how something like this would be scored.


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Digital picture makes that line look clearly larger than it is. I garantee its in and pulling the line to the right. Ill use a digital video to prove it next time just so you cn see that pulling the line clearly happens often and should be called in. Arrows will pull the circle out of round and thats a fact. ASA rules say all it has to do is touch, this isnt indoor where one has to imigine a line which by the way gets called wrong so many times its silly. I have had so many arrows called in in indoor when they were clearly out. Thats why everyone says hey get the judge to call it you never know. Arrow clearly in and I know I put it there.
> DB
> DB


GOTTA follow the path of the ROUND CIRCLE....no such thing as making a circle something OTHER than a circle... You cannot just up and stretch the circle out of shape to tickle your fancy...the intent is to have the circle ROUND...and correctly, IMHO is to find the exact center of said circle and set the radius to the outside of the ROUND circle, not an oblongated one. Then, you use that radius and measure from there to the edge of the arrow...if that touches the arrow, then it is IN; if it doesn't then it is OUT.

PULLING LINES is nonsense...circles are ROUND and not stretched out of shape to garner a higher score. But that is how I see it.

Regardless...I cannot see giving a person at least `1/8" or MORE away from the edge of the ROUND circle, oblongating the circle, and giving them the points for that MISS.

You asked for us to call 'em...and I'm still calling 'em out...cuz circles are ROUND and cannot be "PULLED OUT OF SHAPE", foam or no foam.

I could not in good conscience go along with "12's" on any of the three, and especially the one you recently drew the oblong circle line on.

I guess the rules are written to allow people to get an extra 1/8" or more of 14, 12 ring, 10-ring, or whatever...so just how large can we go to "PULL" a line, huh? and extra 1/4" or more if need be?

field14


----------



## sagecreek

field14 said:


> GOTTA follow the path of the ROUND CIRCLE....no such thing as making a circle something OTHER than a circle... ...



You must be getting confused with dots or field. :tongue::wink:

Is the 8 ring a circle. :wink:

Rule is, touching the line, not the circle. 

You gotta play by the rules Field. Your wrong on this one. epsi:


----------



## field14

sagecreek said:


> You must be getting confused with dots or field. :tongue::wink:
> 
> Is the 8 ring a circle. :wink:
> 
> Rule is, touching the line, not the circle.
> 
> You gotta play by the rules Field. Your wrong on this one. epsi:


Nope...those are called 12 RINGS, 14 RINGS, 10 RINGS...which = CIRCLES.

THe LINES define the EDGES (in our case here OUTER edges of the SCORING area (and those suckers sure look like they are ROUND to me) and those lines are the part of the ROUND scoring area depicted and placed on the SURFACE of the target....you must TOUCH the LINE of the scoring RING (area) to score the higher value. NOT pull the thing out of shape to gain the higher value. MEASURE IT, or KEEPING THE TRUE ROUNDNESS of the RING (not an oblate spheroid)and continuing the LINE in its NORMAL state...if you see that the arrow on either side of the NORMAL STATE LINE is touching the arrow or could have the arrow touching, then, yes, it is IN...but

If in continuing the UNDISTURBED LINE of the "ring"....and looking from both ends the arrow would NOT touch the UNDISTURBED LINE...then it is OUT.

Since they are originally ROUND...how can you stetch them out of round to accommodate the higher value by as much as the example line by DB shows it is contorted? Nope, won't change my mind...

Now you guys wanna DISTURB the ORIGINAL REAL LINES...and give them an entirely different dimension and in these cases, by a LARGE MARGIN than they originally had....anything to get a higher score...nope.

field14


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## Field1

There no since arguing with someone like field14. He's not ever wrong, wouldn't admit if he was and just likes to argue and beat dead horses. He's just too dang dumb to know any better. Blah, blah, blah, blah! Crap give us a break!


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Field14*



field14 said:


> Nope...those are called 12 RINGS, 14 RINGS, 10 RINGS...which = CIRCLES.
> 
> THe LINES define the EDGES (in our case here OUTER edges of the SCORING area (and those suckers sure look like they are ROUND to me) and those lines are the part of the ROUND scoring area depicted and placed on the SURFACE of the target....you must TOUCH the LINE of the scoring RING (area) to score the higher value. NOT pull the thing out of shape to gain the higher value. MEASURE IT, or KEEPING THE TRUE ROUNDNESS of the RING (not an oblate spheroid)and continuing the LINE in its NORMAL state...if you see that the arrow on either side of the NORMAL STATE LINE is touching the arrow or could have the arrow touching, then, yes, it is IN...but
> 
> If in continuing the UNDISTURBED LINE of the "ring"....and looking from both ends the arrow would NOT touch the UNDISTURBED LINE...then it is OUT.
> 
> Since they are originally ROUND...how can you stetch them out of round to accommodate the higher value by as much as the example line by DB shows it is contorted? Nope, won't change my mind...
> 
> Now you guys wanna DISTURB the ORIGINAL REAL LINES...and give them an entirely different dimension and in these cases, by a LARGE MARGIN than they originally had....anything to get a higher score...nope.
> 
> field14


When the arrow hit the target it was in the line. Foam on the 3d target pushed the arrow left or right. Carbon fibor graps the rubber composite material dragging it with it just like the picture shows. Therefore the arrow hit the line. Touching is the rule regardless where the line is. Touching.
DB


----------



## Lonestar63

field14 said:


> You cannot just up and stretch the circle out of shape to tickle your fancy...the intent is to have the circle ROUND...
> 
> PULLING LINES is nonsense...circles are ROUND and not stretched out of shape to garner a higher score. But that is how I see it.
> S.
> 
> You asked for us to call 'em...and I'm still calling 'em out...cuz circles are ROUND and cannot be "PULLED OUT OF SHAPE", foam or no foam.
> 
> 
> field14


Yep, you would call it out, then scream for an official 6 shots later when yours was pullin the line, and they wouldn't give it to you.
If you don't think foam can move or be pulled, take a look at the picture, IT CAN!
I want what i shoot, nothing more, nothing less, but i don't think you would be very fun to have in a group. Whole group would be hating each other by the end.


----------



## field14

Field1 said:


> There no since arguing with someone like field14. He's not ever wrong, wouldn't admit if he was and just likes to argue and beat dead horses. He's just too dang dumb to know any better. Blah, blah, blah, blah! Crap give us a break!


Not too bad for two posts total and being a member less than a month...and NO NAME...whatcha hiding behind? Merit? Experience? You probably don't know me from Adam and are hardly qualified to know what I think, how to interpret my writing, or much else about me or my level of education.

Slamming me only shows your low level of intelligence or wit....and serves no purpose, really.

This poll was to call 'em...and I'm calling 'em...>OUT; we can agree to disagree, but I sure won't stoop to your low level....TWO POSTS TOTAL????

field14


----------



## field14

Lonestar63 said:


> Yep, you would call it out, then scream for an official 6 shots later when yours was pullin the line, and they wouldn't give it to you.
> If you don't think foam can move or be pulled, take a look at the picture, IT CAN!
> I want what i shoot, nothing more, nothing less, but i don't think you would be very fun to have in a group. Whole group would be hating each other by the end.


Another case of not knowing me one iota. First off, I would disagree, but would have to go with the majority and maybe be out-voted (that's the way it is)....since the majority is supposed to RULE. However, I wouldn't want to take the points if I really thought it was OUT and those were MY arrows...

I would hardly call an official over on any of the three cases posted to LET ME PULL A LINE and get the points...when I feel in MY mind it is OUT. (if those were MY arrows).

Call it IN....and I would question it, because I just won't take points that I don't think I deserve...and in those 3 instances, based upon the pictures and the FACT that the UNDISTURBED CIRCLE LINE is the key....I wouldn't want those points. 

But if YOU would take them on YOUR scorecard when the others called them "IN"...>YOU are the one that has to live with what I see, in my mind as a "stretched victory" or score....not me.

That is the way I am....I know that any and all victories I've had in my archery career were LEGITIMATE and weren't gotten by "pulling lines", or "stretching ROUND objects into OBLONG objects"

I'm NOT saying you guys are wrong...only saying that I completely disagree with the calls of having all three of those arrows as "12's" and "pulling lines." You asked me to call 'em and I did...that is what the poll said....

I won't stand for being ridiculed for my honest assessment and explanation of why I assess what I see the way I would call it and have it down on MY OWN scorecard if those were my arrows. I don't want the points if you have to "pull the lines" that far to give 'em a go.
As far as raising a fuss...nope....but I would certainly offer my opinion and drop it at that point and get on with it, keeping my inner thoughts to myself....cuz I've been in the game too long to let that kind of nonsense disrupt MY integrity and how I see VICTORY vs. Stretched victory.
field14


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## Field1

blah, blah, blah! More hollier than though crap. I think everyone has had enough. Your right I don't know you from adam and thank goodness. Sorry but you come across and an arrogant @$$. Please!


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## field14

Field1 said:


> blah, blah, blah! More hollier than though crap. I think everyone has had enough. Your right I don't know you from adam and thank goodness. Sorry but you come across and an arrogant @$$. Please!


And now the "pot" is calling the "kettle" black...were you looking in the mirror when you typed your post or what? You say Please! I say NO THANKS.

Now up to three posts....and all three quite negative...why doncha just offer something positive.

I have a right to my opinion and you to yours...but bantering and ridiculing isn't part of the "game" played here on AT...whatever (notice I didn't say whomever) you are?

Such merit you have on here with only 3 posts to your non-existent name or profile. Cuspidor in place.

field14ukey::embara:


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## Selil

I suggest after handing out infractions like poker chips at nickel night that you all get back on track or the thread will be closed. Further disparagement of your fellow users will result in negative consequences.


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## Daniel Boone

*Well said*



Selil said:


> I suggest after handing out infractions like poker chips at nickel night that you all get back on track or the thread will be closed. Further disparagement of your fellow users will result in negative consequences.


Its Ok to argue but dont be insulting. Everyone has an opionion. I have the advantage of seeing the target first hand and realize that the digital camera makes the lines look larger in the picture. I also want everyone to know this all based on ASA rules of calling the lines. 
DB


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## LiteSpeed1

LiteSpeed1 said:


> DB---Here's a question. Say you are the first shooter and your arrow barely touches the outer edge of a line. Second shooter shoots to the inside and "pulls" or distorts the line away from your arrow. Do you get the lower score or the higher score because it would be in if the other arrow hadn't "pulled" it? Not trying to be a smart_ _ _, just curious how something like this would be scored.


I've come to the realization that lines can be pulled, or at least that is how some people are scoring targets. I'm just curious as how the above scenario would be scored. Anybody?


----------



## Brown Hornet

LiteSpeed1 said:


> I've come to the realization that lines can be pulled, or at least that is how some people are scoring targets. I'm just curious as how the above scenario would be scored. Anybody?



It's out...why because when it's time to score the arrows....the arrow isn't touching the line.


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## field14

You cannot score the arrow as "in" by saying it "hit or touched the line when it impacted the target, but the foam moved it over."

You MUST score the arrow as it lies at the time of scoring...not where it hit.

Visually Stretching a line out of shape (moving it laterally) shouldn't be happening on scoring....regardless of the target bale (animal) makeup.

If the scoring area is circular, it suddenly doesn't become oblong for scoring purposes.

This is the problem I'm having with "pulling a line"....you gotta use the ORIGINAL LOCATION of the LINE...and the CURRENT LOCATION of the ARROW...that is the INTENT of having the scoring line on the target...you do NOT get to "move" the scoring line to favor or disfavor the shooter.

That is the problem...and apparently a HUGE difference between 3-D "Scoring" in a lot of cases and TARGET archery (paper) scoring.

If "line pulling" had been the "rule" when I shot my 557 hunter round....I would probably have gotten my 560...all three of my Missed shots (2 on one target and one on another target) had "dented" the 5-ring going into the target and bale at 6 o'clock ...however, the BALE and vibration of my arrows at impact had caused them to be "deflected"...and they were LYING IN THE TARGET as OUT....we could see the "dent" in the line where the arrow HAD hit the 5-ring...but at the time of scoring...those arrows were NOT touching the higher scoring line...and were called OUT...and I agreed...they were "in" when they hit...but OUT where they LIED in the target.

In a case of a 449 vs. 450 INDOORS on a Vegas round...we could clearly see the point of my arrow was behind the 10-ring...however, due to the way the shaft LIED with regard to the scoring ring....it had been deflected upon impact in the excelsior...and was clearly LYING.....OUT...I took my 449 and NOT the 450.

Dad nab it Daniel, where were you when I needed you, hahaha????

Are you saying then, that if you shoot a target, and a piece of the line is carried way out away from its original location and your arrow is touching that piece of line say 3/8" away from its ORIGINAL location...you are going to take the 12 or the "5" or "X" on a 5-spot?

Water under the dam....but "deflecting it out"...makes that arrow OUT....again, just my opinion.

We were asked to call 'em as we see 'em and I simply don't see 'em as touching the UNDISTURBED higher scoring line.

field14


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## Walleye Joe

Brown Hornet said:


> It's out...why because when it's time to score the arrows....the arrow isn't touching the line.


OUT


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## wlw723

bottom line is the pencil is mightier than the arrow, I shot with a guy last sunday ,the target was a mckenzie standing blackbear , the target had no 12 ring when made the target lines were clear as a whistle he landed his arrow just a tad to the right of center on the target 2 other guys were in the 10 ring also , my self I shanked mine just outside the 10 into the 8 ring . he scored himself a 12 ,other 2 guys 10 and me 8 . now I will take my 8 I earned it fair and square but i told him how can you give yourself a twelve , He said thats where the 12 is supposed to be , I said you cant take 12 and let the other two guys get 10's they were clearly in the same ring as you , and if that is the 12 ring then put me down for a ten cause now you just made the 8 ring a 10 if you are taking a 12 for a ten..long story short he scored it 12 him , 10 two other guys me 8 . the real score should have been 3 10's and an 8 , so no matter where you shoot you will have guys cheating there score up its a fact of archery , it is truly sad that a grown man has to do this to make himself feel better . I just say your only cheating yourself in the long run.........................................................


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## Elf Friend

wlw723 said:


> bottom line is the pencil is mightier than the arrow, I shot with a guy last sunday ,the target was a mckenzie standing blackbear , the target had no 12 ring when made the target lines were clear as a whistle he landed his arrow just a tad to the right of center on the target 2 other guys were in the 10 ring also , my self I shanked mine just outside the 10 into the 8 ring . he scored himself a 12 ,other 2 guys 10 and me 8 . now I will take my 8 I earned it fair and square but i told him how can you give yourself a twelve , He said thats where the 12 is supposed to be run.........................................................


We do this on purpose just to see who will cheat and take a 12 when there is none on a target and then those that do get DQed.


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## jdduffy

10-12-10


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## Daniel Boone

*Field14*



field14 said:


> You cannot score the arrow as "in" by saying it "hit or touched the line when it impacted the target, but the foam moved it over."
> 
> You MUST score the arrow as it lies at the time of scoring...not where it hit.
> 
> Visually Stretching a line out of shape (moving it laterally) shouldn't be happening on scoring....regardless of the target bale (animal) makeup.
> 
> If the scoring area is circular, it suddenly doesn't become oblong for scoring purposes.
> 
> This is the problem I'm having with "pulling a line"....you gotta use the ORIGINAL LOCATION of the LINE...and the CURRENT LOCATION of the ARROW...that is the INTENT of having the scoring line on the target...you do NOT get to "move" the scoring line to favor or disfavor the shooter.
> 
> That is the problem...and apparently a HUGE difference between 3-D "Scoring" in a lot of cases and TARGET archery (paper) scoring.
> 
> If "line pulling" had been the "rule" when I shot my 557 hunter round....I would probably have gotten my 560...all three of my Missed shots (2 on one target and one on another target) had "dented" the 5-ring going into the target and bale at 6 o'clock ...however, the BALE and vibration of my arrows at impact had caused them to be "deflected"...and they were LYING IN THE TARGET as OUT....we could see the "dent" in the line where the arrow HAD hit the 5-ring...but at the time of scoring...those arrows were NOT touching the higher scoring line...and were called OUT...and I agreed...they were "in" when they hit...but OUT where they LIED in the target.
> 
> In a case of a 449 vs. 450 INDOORS on a Vegas round...we could clearly see the point of my arrow was behind the 10-ring...however, due to the way the shaft LIED with regard to the scoring ring....it had been deflected upon impact in the excelsior...and was clearly LYING.....OUT...I took my 449 and NOT the 450.
> 
> Dad nab it Daniel, where were you when I needed you, hahaha????
> 
> Are you saying then, that if you shoot a target, and a piece of the line is carried way out away from its original location and your arrow is touching that piece of line say 3/8" away from its ORIGINAL location...you are going to take the 12 or the "5" or "X" on a 5-spot?
> 
> Water under the dam....but "deflecting it out"...makes that arrow OUT....again, just my opinion.
> 
> We were asked to call 'em as we see 'em and I simply don't see 'em as touching the UNDISTURBED higher scoring line.
> 
> field14




The rules said touching the line:wink:. Not where the line was before the arrow stretched the line. This is very clear to everone on the ASA circuit. Your changing the rules to how you see them.:tongue: Some guys dont want to lubicate there arrows so it does pull the line. I believe pulling the line is just something everyone has to realize does happen and the rules say touch.
DB


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## gotcha nock Jim

Boy Dan opened a can of worms now! This Line calling has nothing to do with being a pro or an open C shooter. Dan is not saying a pro is any more qualified to call these scores than a C class shooter, thats not the point. I'm sure the point he is trying to make is the guys he shoots with have years of this kind of contraversary. I personally don't see much question, He's saying the arrow IS touching the line then it is A 12...... As far as #3 the 12 and 10 intersect making it also a 12. The call should always go to the shooter. AS far as line pulling of course there are times when this happens. I have seen a golf ball perfect round 12 distort to a chicken egg shape the arrow still TOUCHING the outside 12 line its a 12, IF the arrow stretches the line to look like an oscar Mayer Wennie if the arrow is still touching the line it is still a 12.


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## LiteSpeed1

gotcha nock Jim said:


> Boy Dan opened a can of worms now! This Line calling has nothing to do with being a pro or an open C shooter. Dan is not saying a pro is any more qualified to call these scores than a C class shooter, thats not the point. I'm sure the point he is trying to make is the guys he shoots with have years of this kind of contraversary. I personally don't see much question, He's saying the arrow IS touching the line then it is A 12...... *As far as #3 the 12 and 10 intersect making it also a 12. *The call should always go to the shooter. AS far as line pulling of course there are times when this happens. I have seen a golf ball perfect round 12 distort to a chicken egg shape the arrow still TOUCHING the outside 12 line its a 12, IF the arrow stretches the line to look like an oscar Mayer Wennie if the arrow is still touching the line it is still a 12.


But this is what we are saying. The inside of the 10 ring does not touch the outside of the lower 12. Dan says it himself in his post #265. I think what he is saying is on the javelina target the 10 and 12 rings share a common line. _*Just not on this particular target*_. He got a target that is, for lack of better terms, is a mis-print. If the lines would touch, I agree it would be a 12.


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## cowboy3

*Easy*

12,12,10


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Agree*



LiteSpeed1 said:


> But this is what we are saying. The inside of the 10 ring does not touch the outside of the lower 12. Dan says it himself in his post #265. I think what he is saying is on the javelina target the 10 and 12 rings share a common line. _*Just not on this particular target*_. He got a target that is, for lack of better terms, is a mis-print. If the lines would touch, I agree it would be a 12.


My Javelina is not well done at all. There is a seperation between the 10 and 12 line. Mckensies working hard to get this stopped and the targets in Georgia looked like they improved the quality. 
DB


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## LiteSpeed1

Thanks Dan


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Wish I would have took some pictures of the scoring rings on practice range*



LiteSpeed1 said:


> Thanks Dan



We all noticed the were better. Some did say they thought some of the ten rings were not a perfect circle. I thought the 14 rings on the Javelina were smaller than mine at home.
DB


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## Avalon

I don't get all the controversey. If there is space between the line and your arrow...OUT! Pulled or not.


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## reylamb

field14 said:


> GOTTA follow the path of the ROUND CIRCLE....no such thing as making a circle something OTHER than a circle... You cannot just up and stretch the circle out of shape to tickle your fancy...the intent is to have the circle ROUND...and correctly, IMHO is to find the exact center of said circle and set the radius to the outside of the ROUND circle, not an oblongated one. Then, you use that radius and measure from there to the edge of the arrow...if that touches the arrow, then it is IN; if it doesn't then it is OUT.
> 
> PULLING LINES is nonsense...circles are ROUND and not stretched out of shape to garner a higher score. But that is how I see it.
> 
> Regardless...I cannot see giving a person at least `1/8" or MORE away from the edge of the ROUND circle, oblongating the circle, and giving them the points for that MISS.
> 
> You asked for us to call 'em...and I'm still calling 'em out...cuz circles are ROUND and cannot be "PULLED OUT OF SHAPE", foam or no foam.
> 
> I could not in good conscience go along with "12's" on any of the three, and especially the one you recently drew the oblong circle line on.
> 
> I guess the rules are written to allow people to get an extra 1/8" or more of 14, 12 ring, 10-ring, or whatever...so just how large can we go to "PULL" a line, huh? and extra 1/4" or more if need be?
> 
> field14


Field, I always thought you were a big fan of following the rules. The ASA rules state touching the line, not touching the ring or circle. Heck I just took off my wedding ring and looked at it......guess what.....it is oblong not circular, yet it is still a ring.........

Just as you have to call the arrow where it lies in the target, not where it entered, you have to score the rings where they are, not where they should be.....in the ASA. Which is why I could not, and would not call te 3rd pic a 12. While the lower part of the 12 and the 10 rings are supposed to overlap at that point, on Dan's target they do not. Since they do not overlap the arrow is not touching the line of the higher scoring area, so by the rules I could not call it a 12.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*It actually is that easy*



AVALON said:


> I don't get all the controversey. If there is space between the line and your arrow...OUT! Pulled or not.



If its not touching its out. :tongue: 
DB


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## reylamb

LiteSpeed1 said:


> DB---Here's a question. Say you are the first shooter and your arrow barely touches the outer edge of a line. Second shooter shoots to the inside and "pulls" or distorts the line away from your arrow. Do you get the lower score or the higher score because it would be in if the other arrow hadn't "pulled" it? Not trying to be a smart_ _ _, just curious how something like this would be scored.


Out.........and I have had that happen to me. I was touching the outer part of the line, the next shooter slid down the top of my arrow and pushed me down.......it happens, and that is just part of the game.


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## JAVI

reylamb said:


> Out.........and I have had that happen to me. I was touching the outer part of the line, the next shooter slid down the top of my arrow and pushed me down.......it happens, and that is just part of the game.


More than once...:wink:


----------



## reylamb

JAVI said:


> More than once...:wink:


Unfortunately......but them's the breaks:tongue:Kinda like drilling a pin nock in the 14 and kicking into a 5.........made a great shot but the score does not reflect it..............


----------



## JAVI

reylamb said:


> Unfortunately......but them's the breaks:tongue:Kinda like drilling a pin nock in the 14 and kicking into a 5.........made a great shot but the score does not reflect it..............


Shoot with Crowe and some of the others using them 2613 and 30X's and you'll get a few knocked out, like you said "breaks of the game"...


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## rudeman

When you look at the picture where you drew the line, if you follow the circle up from the bottom, it doesn't even look close to me anymore. OUT. Still 10-12-10. 

And, like I said before, these vendors need to make their scoring areas more obvious. Scoring what might be an 8 as a 12 because it might be pulling the 10 line that touches the 12 line is pretty absurd when you think about it. That'd be like shooting FITA and saying, "Well, it's in the 8 ring but might be touching the 9 ring so it's a 10". Hmmm!


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## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> The rules said touching the line:wink:. Not where the line was before the arrow stretched the line. This is very clear to everone on the ASA circuit. Your changing the rules to how you see them.:tongue: Some guys dont want to lubicate there arrows so it does pull the line. I believe pulling the line is just something everyone has to realize does happen and the rules say touch.
> DB


Dan'l. I'm catching on to this "pulling the line" stuff...It doesn't happen that way in TARGET archery...FITA, Field, Indoor....you go from the UNDISTURBED LINE period...NO PULLING the line. If your arrow hits one place, denting the line or even cutting it...and due to the bale or impact angle...it ends up OUTSIDE that UNDISTURBED line...it is called WHERE IT LIES and there is NO LINE DRAGGING involved.

I hate to count the "points lost" just by myself in tournaments and practice/league where the arrow HIT inside the line...and due to the impact angle/vibration/type of bale and final angle...it was scored as it LIED on the TARGET FACE....and was clearly OUT...in spite of it having HIT INSIDE the scoring line...it didn't FINISH by touching the line, or that line was DISTURBED away from its original plane, so it is scored OUT. NO quiblling or arguing...it was flat OUT.

IF the target is torn and a piece of the line is torn out and away from the place it is supposed to be and you touch THAT...it is OUT...cuz you score from the UNDISTURBED line...

HUGE difference between 3-D scoring and TARGET scoring....tough to get used to the idea of being able to MIS=SHAPE the scoring area and get away with gaining points by "PULLING A LINE" out of shape.

Bad enough to use FAT SHAFTS to gain an edge...but now we find out you can choose to NOT LUBE your arrows so that you can PULL LINES to your favor....gimme a break!

I know now it is LEGAL...but does that make it ethically correct?

Strange indeed. I might oughtta try this Pulling the line thing sometime in a field or indoor or FITA shoot. Then tell them in 3-D that is how it is done and see how far I get with that concept of my arrow DRAGGING THE LINE OUT OF SHAPE...

Probably about as far as I'm getting with not being able to accept mis-shaping a line giving me the higher value when looking at it from the "undisturbed line" concept, correct?

What a bucket of worms for scoring...and I sure can see huge inconsistencies in scoring in every group at every tournament in every division....

Do the PROS score 100% correct 100% of the time...seriously doubt it....but they obviously come to a group consensus, and that is the score that goes down...as it is supposed to...and we'll never know for sure if there was/is controversy in the group and/or who the dissenter(s) were...because what goes on in the group STAYS in the group, etc etc etc.

I'm assuming that during the big gun shootoff, JUDGES do the scoring and tallying, correct? That is how it is done at the MAJOR target tournaments during shootoffs. That way, blame the JUDGES and your peers are out of the matrix.

Looking back on this thread...I would still not give ANY of those three arrows 12's...that is how I see them from the pictures.

However, looking back on this thread...you've done a great job in getting people to understand that ASA scoring is indeed DIFFERENT...and now people are aware that they may well be LOSING POINTS by people more "target scoring" oriented being involved in calling 3-D scores...that have an very different view on what is "in" and what is "OUT"....

So, in that aspect, Dan'l....this thread is enlightening while at the same time frustrating to us crusty 40 year plus of competitive shooting target shooters that THOUGHT they knew how to score targets..>INCLUDING 3-D, only to find this illustrious new "wrinkle" that has crept into the game to frustrate the scoring situation even more.

field14


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## sagecreek

Field,

What would happen if all field and FITA faces were made out of Ethafoam? :tongue:


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## field14

JAVI said:


> Shoot with Crowe and some of the others using them 2613 and 30X's and you'll get a few knocked out, like you said "breaks of the game"...


Heck, Javi, from what I'm hearing....the 2613's and 30X are SMALL shafts. I heard a few are using 2712's, the maximum allowable shaft size at this point in time.

Hopefully ASA won't waffle on this and go to no restriction....Can you imagine someone shooting enough poundage to get the mega-shafts to work out to 55 yards or so? Just TRY to get YOUR arrow into the 12 or 14 ring when some Yo-Yo has just shot a mega-shaft into there? Egads.:wink::tongue:

field14


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## field14

sagecreek said:


> Field,
> 
> What would happen if all field and FITA faces were made out of Ethafoam? :tongue:


You wouldn't believe the funny "kicks" you get on a FITA or American round, or even a field round when shooting on a "foam type" target boss! OMG!

AND, in those cases...the arrow scores where it LIES AFTER it has settled in the target in relation to the UNDISTURBED LINE! I"ve had arrows that impacted INSIDE the 10-ring, but kicked so bad that the shaft was touching the target face OUTSIDE of the line...and I got the 9. (or whatever). I"ve also seen and had happen where an arrow has taken a piece of paper and pinned it well away from its "normal" location" and taking a black line out there with it....was it scored as "touching the line" ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I have a real difficult time accepting that the line being moved and pulled around by the arrow (lubed or not) can still result in the person getting the higher value, when if the line was NOT pulled...there is no way they could get the value.

BUT....if that is the way the rules are written for ASA..then so be it.

Sure hope ASA shooters don't expect "line pulling" if they shoot "paper" or target or field. IF they do, they are in for some disappointment.:wink::tongue:

But on the POSITIVE SIDE...guess for ASA, the rules are the rules, so SOME people are going to reap the benefits of a pulled line....I"ll have to figure out how to deal with that...cuz I sure wouldn't want any potential victory (fat chance for me these days, haha) soiled by knowing that I did NOT really shoot the sucker in there...but "pulled a line" to get it.....raspy for me.

Get used to it FIELDMAN, correct? hahahaha

You 3-Ders never cease to give me some "learning" opportunities....

field14


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## gotcha nock Jim

Ethafoam field targets would likely create the same problem as 3D. Scoring line cutters isn't a new problem. In the 70's I was a range captian of a muzzleloader club, when we shot at paper similar to the 5-spot targets shooters would want the 10 if it tore the line. I carried 45,50,54, and 58 bullets in my pocket stick em in the hole buried halfway, if it touched the ink line 10, if not 9. this problem has been going on since before JESUS was a cub scout.


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## reylamb

field14 said:


> But on the POSITIVE SIDE...guess for ASA, the rules are the rules, so SOME people are going to reap the benefits of a pulled line....I"ll have to figure out how to deal with that...cuz I sure wouldn't want any potential victory (fat chance for me these days, haha) soiled by knowing that I did NOT really shoot the sucker in there...but "pulled a line" to get it.....raspy for me.
> 
> Get used to it FIELDMAN, correct? hahahaha
> 
> You 3-Ders never cease to give me some "learning" opportunities....
> 
> field14


Don't take this the wrong way me amigo..........but wouldn't you actually have to attend an ASA shoot before worrying about any potential victories????????? I mean, you have not exactly been seen at every ASA shoot the last few years and all:tongue::wink:


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## 12ringok

hey db okarcher cant talk anymore for two weeks but i would score them 12,12,12 maybe field does need to attend more asa events.


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## field14

reylamb said:


> Don't take this the wrong way me amigo..........but wouldn't you actually have to attend an ASA shoot before worrying about any potential victories????????? I mean, you have not exactly been seen at every ASA shoot the last few years and all:tongue::wink:


You are correct...but VICTORIES are NOT just ASA...you know....SCORING is SCORING no matter what the venue....

AND...improper scoring and a victory are sour....PROPER AND CONSISTENT scoring and a victory are sweet!

I think you all have learned form this thread...that scoring IS NOT CONSISTENT...and it sure has made more than just the fieldman aware of the INCONSISTENCIES and mis-understanding of scoring rules....and you can bet the inconsistencies will continue...so

Who's score is "correct" and who's score is INCORRECT....based upon not even KNOWING ABOUT those "rules pictures" on how to score...EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT, isn't it?

Don't take this wrong anyone...but I won't travel to a tourn for 40 shots and pay out that kind of money to go. I know, there is the SIMS and other things....but 5-7 hours for 40 shots...and maybe only 20 shots per day...not my cup of tea.

I also know that people are flocking to ASA events and I don't have a problem with that either....it IS their 'cup of tea' and obviously shooting 112 shots per day on a field course is NOT "their" cup of tea.

Different strokes for different folks.

Doesn't prevent me from keeping an eye on things and participating locally if I so choose to do so, does it? Doesn't mean I can't voice an opinion either...whether one shoots a venue or not at a national level doesn't matter much, really.

It is very interesting to see how "scoring" is changing among the associations, however....very, very interesting.

This thread has been very educational for me...and hopefully for the others that apparently are all wet when it comes to "scoring"...perhaps now, some of you will GAIN POINTS due to the irregularities between present and past scoring practices on ASA foamies.

Besides, with this new "education" I'm better prepared to go to an ASA event and UNDERSTAND THINGS BETTER, before I engage in the activity...nothing wrong with that either. hahaha Sorta like learning the ropes and snopes BEFORE you go...more PROACTIVE rather than REACTIVE....and PROACTIVE is always better! So see, you folks...you actually are helping the fieldman....

field14


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## Walleye Joe

Thanks Dan!

My scores are going to go up too! :thumbs_up


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## Daniel Boone

*ASA Pro am in Illinois*



Walleye Joe said:


> Thanks Dan!
> 
> My scores are going to go up too! :thumbs_up



Come show me there. Always a goodtime and great shoot. End of June.

DB


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## reylamb

field14 said:


> You are correct...but VICTORIES are NOT just ASA...you know....SCORING is SCORING no matter what the venue....
> 
> AND...improper scoring and a victory are sour....PROPER AND CONSISTENT scoring and a victory are sweet!
> 
> I think you all have learned form this thread...that scoring IS NOT CONSISTENT...and it sure has made more than just the fieldman aware of the INCONSISTENCIES and mis-understanding of scoring rules....and you can bet the inconsistencies will continue...so
> 
> Who's score is "correct" and who's score is INCORRECT....based upon not even KNOWING ABOUT those "rules pictures" on how to score...EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT, isn't it?
> 
> Don't take this wrong anyone...but I won't travel to a tourn for 40 shots and pay out that kind of money to go. I know, there is the SIMS and other things....but 5-7 hours for 40 shots...and maybe only 20 shots per day...not my cup of tea.
> 
> I also know that people are flocking to ASA events and I don't have a problem with that either....it IS their 'cup of tea' and obviously shooting 112 shots per day on a field course is NOT "their" cup of tea.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> Doesn't prevent me from keeping an eye on things and participating locally if I so choose to do so, does it? Doesn't mean I can't voice an opinion either...whether one shoots a venue or not at a national level doesn't matter much, really.
> 
> It is very interesting to see how "scoring" is changing among the associations, however....very, very interesting.
> 
> This thread has been very educational for me...and hopefully for the others that apparently are all wet when it comes to "scoring"...perhaps now, some of you will GAIN POINTS due to the irregularities between present and past scoring practices on ASA foamies.
> 
> Besides, with this new "education" I'm better prepared to go to an ASA event and UNDERSTAND THINGS BETTER, before I engage in the activity...nothing wrong with that either. hahaha Sorta like learning the ropes and snopes BEFORE you go...more PROACTIVE rather than REACTIVE....and PROACTIVE is always better! So see, you folks...you actually are helping the fieldman....
> 
> field14


Field, field, field........you gots to go by the rules of the organization, scoring is not scoring across the board........

Anywho, I know you have heard this before, but there is so much more to the ASA than simply flinging 20 arrows per day.......so much so that I will make you a deal.......show up in Super Man City, heck it is close to you, relatively speaking anyway........and I will pay your entry fee, so long as you stay out of any of the pro or sorta pro classes........and to top it off I will even pick up some shrimp and wings one night over at Willy Jacks..........what ya say, will you at least give it a go?????? You have nothing to loose.......


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## field14

reylamb said:


> Field, field, field........you gots to go by the rules of the organization, scoring is not scoring across the board........
> 
> Anywho, I know you have heard this before, but there is so much more to the ASA than simply flinging 20 arrows per day.......so much so that I will make you a deal.......show up in Super Man City, heck it is close to you, relatively speaking anyway........and I will pay your entry fee, so long as you stay out of any of the pro or sorta pro classes........and to top it off I will even pick up some shrimp and wings one night over at Willy Jacks..........what ya say, will you at least give it a go?????? You have nothing to loose.......


Reylamb..

Let's see.....you must be talking Metropolis? When is that shoot anyways?

Then....there are the major issues FOR ME right now:

`1. Committments to several LONG, and I mean LONG bicycling ride events (NOT racing...I'm too slow for that)...one of them that I'm in "training" for right now is 425 miles in 6 days with an "off day" potential of 100 miles on that day alone if we want to...but at least 75 more miles, more than likely... The others are 2-3 dayers of 150 miles or more. Three weeks later, there is another one of 3 days totaling 225 miles, and that one falls on the weekend of June 27....so METROPOLIS IS OUT. The rides are paid for already and friends and I are committed. Both rides have registered riders upwards of 1,000 or more.

Sometimes priorities change...just like they have with most archery folks these days...so many other things to do, and only so much time and money to do 'em with.

Your offer is extremely generous...maybe another time. I actually wouldn't mind trying ASA again, however....but with you guys "educating" me ahead of time, it will sure help. This "line pulling" thing is NOT the same as it was the last time I shot an ASA event....they sure weren't being called that way back then; at least not in those area events I competed in....I am clueless on the national level...never been to one of those ASA events. They also were not "pulling lines" in the IBO events I attended...and THOSE were indeed the major ones...no "line pulling" on scoring back then...NOW? Heck I dunno???

So, many one of these weekends....the fieldman might just get a hankerin' to shoots an ASA....there are friends I have that go to them...so just maybe...Heck I can shoot NOVICE or something...or Senior something or other....WIth my short drawlength...can I shoot CUB?

field14


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## Daniel Boone

*Talkers and doers*



field14 said:


> Reylamb..
> 
> Let's see.....you must be talking Metropolis? When is that shoot anyways?
> 
> Then....there are the major issues FOR ME right now:
> 
> `1. Committments to several LONG, and I mean LONG bicycling ride events (NOT racing...I'm too slow for that)...one of them that I'm in "training" for right now is 425 miles in 6 days with an "off day" potential of 100 miles on that day alone if we want to...but at least 75 more miles, more than likely... The others are 2-3 dayers of 150 miles or more. Three weeks later, there is another one of 3 days totaling 225 miles, and that one falls on the weekend of June 27....so METROPOLIS IS OUT. The rides are paid for already and friends and I are committed. Both rides have registered riders upwards of 1,000 or more.
> 
> Sometimes priorities change...just like they have with most archery folks these days...so many other things to do, and only so much time and money to do 'em with.
> 
> Your offer is extremely generous...maybe another time. I actually wouldn't mind trying ASA again, however....but with you guys "educating" me ahead of time, it will sure help. This "line pulling" thing is NOT the same as it was the last time I shot an ASA event....they sure weren't being called that way back then; at least not in those area events I competed in....I am clueless on the national level...never been to one of those ASA events. They also were not "pulling lines" in the IBO events I attended...and THOSE were indeed the major ones...no "line pulling" on scoring back then...NOW? Heck I dunno???
> 
> So, many one of these weekends....the fieldman might just get a hankerin' to shoots an ASA....there are friends I have that go to them...so just maybe...Heck I can shoot NOVICE or something...or Senior something or other....WIth my short drawlength...can I shoot CUB?
> 
> field14



Your not getting any younger. Just go for it.
DB


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## njshadowwalker

10 10 10 if im calling:darkbeer:


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## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Your not getting any younger. Just go for it.
> DB


Now you know WHY I'm taking on these bicycling trips NOW instead of waiting. This cycling thing is addictive....NO pressure other than to FINISH, go at YOUR pace and do it HOW you want to, and you don't have to answer to anyone...and PULLING A LINE....hasn't a thing to do with score.:tongue::wink:

Gotta do the cycling thing while I still can....I figure I'll be able to shoot long after I can't ride those distances anymore....I should have taken up road bicycling a long time ago.

Tell you what....betcha I don't have problems with climbing the hills or "catching my wind" anymore....along with r'ball....I'm probably in even better shape now than in the past.

field14


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## new to this

Interesting


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