# Where is the "New" stuff for 2005????



## LeEarl (Jun 1, 2002)

OK last year by this time we had a picture of the RazorX riser and we where getting info everyday. And by Sept. 11 we had pics of new cams and stuff. SO, when are we getting new pictures and info of the 2005 stuff???? I can not wait any longer. Lets get this going NOW, please 

Come on GRIV, don't fail us now 

LeEarl


----------



## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

All that advance hype was the worst thing Martin Archery could have done.

Sure it increased interest in the new bows because there are entirely too many archers thinking they can buy a score with the "new and improved whatever".

However, it stirred up the buyers way too early.

It was disgraceful, seeing posts from archers purported to be grown men whinning and pleading for more pictures and detail about products that would not be ready for 6 to 8 months.


----------



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

That's right, Jim.
Bunch of whinney crybabies with no patience. 
Just received my new custom Recurve, after a 14 month wait, without a single whine. 

LeEarl,

Look for a new Martin Scepter IV this fall.
I guarantee, the appearance of the Scepter IV 
Just remember, you heard it from Ol' Sag first. 


Sag.


----------



## Archeryaddict (Jan 12, 2003)

Nobody is making any thing new this year


----------



## kiwibowpro (Apr 24, 2003)

Matthews might surprise us all and come out with a "new" version of a single cam !!!!


----------



## Larebow (Feb 18, 2004)

Your all crazy mathews is going to make strictly duallys in 05 

Sorry had to


----------



## BradMc26 (Oct 16, 2002)

I heard a rumor that all the maufacturers got together and decided to price their bows to where a working man, and not a wealthy aristocrat could afford a new bow  

Man I love my Darton Cyclone 3-D. But it is four years old now, and I want a new bow.


----------



## LeEarl (Jun 1, 2002)

I do not care what you say about what happened last year. If I was to tell you that I did not like seeing new products a little at a time, I would be a fool!! Who cares if shooters want more pictures and whine, as if all the whineing was real  , it is all about having fun, right? How far in advance does Ford or Chevy post pics about new products. Or even Polaris, Honda or Artic Cat? It is all about getting people to see the new products and getting them excited about it.

I for one love to see new things. And that is what I was asking for. Not to get someone to tell me "what happened" last year. WE ALL KNOW, but some do not show it, that everything has to be built and can not be sent out the next day.

So who is with me and would like to see some info on the 2005 products? 

LeEarl


----------



## RobVos (May 23, 2002)

I am with you LeEarl 

I like to get the teasers and I thinbk last year was great the way that GRIV slowly let some of the finer points out of the bag. As an engineer and as a consumer, it was really nice to see the drawings and such.

I think that the tactic of teasing worked out quite well for Martin Archery too. They had a great year and it all started with the teases -- really got people exited and wanting to check out the bows.

Who care that they were not immediately available -- I don't.

Bring it on!!!!


----------



## x-ring (Jul 5, 2002)

Patience...






It is coming


----------



## LeEarl (Jun 1, 2002)

Thanks Jon  You know us northern boys!! 

Not much patience here, but I will wait  Just as long as I know it is on the way 

LeEarl


----------



## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

I will be releasing teasers soon!

First teaser...................


We will be shipping earlier than ever before.

We will be ready to ship "most" models as soon as you see them in the new catalog.... (which I have to say is going to be the hottest ever, thanks to Ken, Mike, and Matthew our Graphic layout gurus.) 

The catalog will be earlier than last year. 

Dealers will get the first peek through a news letter that will be coming out in about 3 weeks. 

We have some hot new stuff that you are going to love!


----------



## UltraShooter (Jan 30, 2003)

LeEarl said:


> *So who is with me and would like to see some info on the 2005 products?
> 
> LeEarl *


I want to see a sneak-peek of the 2005 products as well!!!!


----------



## Daemonspeeding (Jul 3, 2004)

GRIV said:


> *I will be releasing teasers soon!
> 
> First teaser...................
> 
> ...


When will the .PDF version be posted?


----------



## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

The PDF will post just after the hard copies hit the mail.

Also the new web site will be launched at the same time.


----------



## GBULL (May 29, 2004)

GRIV

Hope that Martin web-site will accept non-USA address on the contact page when the new 2005 web-site is up...

I have already send an e-mail requesting 2005 catalog (when it ready for mail)..

BTW, the hard copies hit the mail, means the new letter to dealer?

Thanks and looking forward to your new line-up.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

*No new bows for 2005???* 

I can tell you for a fact there is going to be one new bow (and company) that'll re-define accurate, for bowhunters and target archers alike.

And I don't mean maybe. You'll see it here first.

Jungle.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

*05 might just change the way you look at hunting bows.*


----------



## Larebow (Feb 18, 2004)

What are we looking at?


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Solid model of rear stabilizer mount hole & lower grip area.


----------



## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jungle said:


> *No new bows for 2005???
> 
> I can tell you for a fact there is going to be one new bow (and company) that'll re-define accurate, for bowhunters and target archers alike.
> 
> ...


Is all of this going to come at a re-defined cost? 

I will buy a Canadian or Albertan bow, at the right price range.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

> Is all of this going to come at a re-defined cost?


Yes, it isn’t for the budget conscious, only those that want to hit better in the field. 

You get what you pay for.


----------



## Larebow (Feb 18, 2004)

how about a little more


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Larebow,

I’m not being vague to be a pain, I’m awaiting legal formalities before I can cut loose and give it to you guys. I appreciate your interest, sorry to beat around the bush.
 

Think “works” style, as in – the best available components money can buy, all combined on a unique freeform riser (yes, the riser work is done in Canada) with geometry that adds function beyond holding the limbs.

Two things I can mention – Dave Barnsdale makes the limbs for me, and Rex Darlington supplies the cams. Both men are masters at what they do.

This bow was designed for bowhunting. No corners have been cut, and no expense spared. Admittedly, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, in fact it fly’s in the face of what’s popular. 

Once you’ve tried the shortest, the fastest, and the lightest, try something that shoots!!!
 

Jim


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

For those that don’t recognize it, this is the upper sight window offset.

JR.


----------



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Jungle,

Since Dave Barnsdale is making your limbs, you're already ahead of over 95% of the other manufacturers, as far as I'm concerned, without even seeing your bow! 
Will you be offering a 3 track cam system as an option ?
Look forward to seeing the whole bow.


Sag.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Sag,

I have considered that my recipe for a good hunting bow may also find a niche with some target archers, but to be honest with you, I don’t have enough experience in that arena to really even have an opinion worth stating. I loved two cams – until marketing nearly took them away, perhaps the balanced three track two cam would be a good option to look at? I have arrangements made to decorate some of the bows in solid colors.

As for Dave, I concur. I marvel at the craftsmanship, I am lucky to have him building limbs for me.

Jim.

A couple of questions for you: 

What does your “ready to shoot” target bow weight?

In your equipment preferences you list “Trails End” recurves, would that be Dale Dye’s bows? I have a custom Spirit Medicine he made for me in 86, I used it exclusively for hunting until 91. JR.


----------



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Jim,

I read over your statement,
"this bow was designed for hunting", like a dummy, or I wouldn't have asked about the 3 track option.
That's ok though, I'm thinking about replacing my Mach 8 hunting bow I've used for the past few years. 
My 2 Bowman and Merlin Super Nova target bows weigh 9, 9, and 11lbs ready to shoot with accessories.
I prefer a bow with a physical weight around 4 to 5lbs, sans accessories.
My Type 2 Bowman is very heavy at a physical weight of 6 1/2 lbs but it's for a specific purpose.
Not a bow you want to shoot spots with. 

Yes, Dale Dye is the maker of my Trails End bows.
Just received a new one, a couple of weeks ago, with an African Blackwood riser, antlered tips and riser front, plus, hand checkering.
Got the African Blackwood because it is heavy and stable.
Even like my recurves with some weight. 
Here is a pic.


Sag.


----------



## arrowactionarch (Mar 2, 2003)

LeEarl said:


> *OK last year by this time we had a picture of the RazorX riser and we where getting info everyday. And by Sept. 11 we had pics of new cams and stuff. SO, when are we getting new pictures and info of the 2005 stuff???? I can not wait any longer. Lets get this going NOW, please
> 
> Come on GRIV, don't fail us now
> 
> LeEarl *


 I have something new and better..Mag-Tek-Releases.
No more miss-fires, no trigger travel. The crispes releases ever made.


----------



## arrowactionarch (Mar 2, 2003)

LeEarl said:



> *OK last year by this time we had a picture of the RazorX riser and we where getting info everyday. And by Sept. 11 we had pics of new cams and stuff. SO, when are we getting new pictures and info of the 2005 stuff???? I can not wait any longer. Lets get this going NOW, please
> 
> Come on GRIV, don't fail us now
> 
> LeEarl *


 I have something new and better..Mag-Tek-Releases.
No more miss-fires, no trigger travel. The crispes releases ever made.


----------



## The Buck (Jul 1, 2002)

arrowactionarch
where can one see this release. It looks like my CNC stan.
I would like to try one of these
The Buck
Brent Franklin


----------



## arrowactionarch (Mar 2, 2003)

A wrist strap release should be ready for sale around Oct 15. 
I'm having a mold built for a magnet that adjust pressure by rotating it. I have this in my wrist strap model now and it works great. It adjust from firm to heavy, no hair triggers here. It pulls off great with back tension.

The hand held and back tension releases will take longer to get done. 

The pic of the wrist strap release is built so you can flip it around and add a thumb trigger or add a index finger full support using your middle finger on the trigger.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

The handle has no cut-outs, which allows it to be WAY stronger than a similar handle w/ cutouts. BUT, it maintains very clean and uncluttered lines throughout. I haven't even touched on the geometry yet - that's where it gets really good!  

(Sag, your Trails end bow is beautiful!!!)


----------



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Jungle,

Do you plan to offer a stainless steel stabilizer insert, plus thru pins that the limb bolts attach to instead of the softer aluminum of the riser ?
Not trying to tell you how to build your bow, of course, but I believe, the stainless inserts and thru pins make for a superior crafted bow.
Prefer that the stabilizer insert go all the way thru for adding back weights for those who want to shoot your bow in competition. 
Will you bow be offered in dipped or anodized finishes.
I prefer anodized, myself, or a dipped finish over an anodized finish like on my Mach 8.
Thanks, also, for the complements on my Trails End bow. 


Sag.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Sag,

Everything is drilled and tapped right into the aluminum. I was also concerned with the limb bolts, but I didn’t want to mess up the clean look by using a steel thru pin if possible, so I used extra long limb bolts which the shape of the handle allowed for. Further, the large surface contact between the handle and limb bolts seems to do away with the need for limb bolt locks. In fact, I haven’t used loc-tite on the bolts, but rather powdered Teflon so they were easy to turn (a lot of adjusting while testing), still no changes. You gotta like adjusting bolts without turning red in the face, AND having them stay put.

The stabilizer mounts (both front and rear) are drilled and tapped from both sides, not through. The handle’s I beam design thins to 2/10 “ in the middle, so a through hole would have came out of the riser. I think I’m figuring out the need for steel here for target use, your probably putting that thing on and taking it off a lot! Good point – I’ve got my pencil out! 

Finish. It’s anodized, but not type 2 (cosmetic – everyone else’s), rather, type 3 (hard). The same finish that makes aluminum hard enough to make broadheads with. It’s difficult to go away from the dipped finishes and all the (popular) pretty designer camo, but this bow is first and foremost – function – or more accurately, function under adverse conditions and mental states. For camo I’m using a retro WWII - 3-color camo that’s more aligned with the design intent. Is that a statement about the bow & company? A definitive YES.

Just wait till you see the name! 

Jim.


----------



## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Jungle said:


> *
> Everything is drilled and tapped right into the aluminum. I was also concerned with the limb bolts, but I didn’t want to mess up the clean look by using a steel thru pin if possible, so I used extra long limb bolts which the shape of the handle allowed for. Further, the large surface contact between the handle and limb bolts seems to do away with the need for limb bolt locks. In fact, I haven’t used loc-tite on the bolts, but rather powdered Teflon so they were easy to turn (a lot of adjusting while testing), still no changes. You gotta like adjusting bolts without turning red in the face, AND having them stay put.
> *


Just a suggestion:
How about using a steel helicoil? 
That's not expensive and offers best of both worlds, a clean look and a thread hole which will last forever. Could be a valuable sales argument, too.
Good luck with that venture.
Looking forward to see the whole bow one day.

Markus


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Markus,

Good idea! I hadn't considered using a helicoil as anything other than a repair part. I used them on heavy draw weight Oneida bows while testing different power cable strand counts a long time ago. They worked really well.

Thanks for the input and kind words. 

On another note, I have a client that's leaving for Africa on the 27th of this month; he's going after big stuff. I forwarded your info to him, he's an ardent "cut on contact" guy, but unfortunately there wasn't time to get things happening before the hunt...this time. 

Jim.

I gave the bow it's first acid test yesterday, mule deer. I was very pleased that it BUILT confidence as I drew and aimed (a VERY critical time for me and decidedly different than anything I can replicate in practice!), I'll post a picture when I can, but I have an old fashion (film) camera - so there's processing yet.


----------



## alwinearcher (May 19, 2004)

you got my interest!

but, im just wondering, when you say its not going to be cheap, are we talking like the price of a new mathews/hoyt? or like in the $1,500 range?


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Alwinearcher,

The billet of aluminum I start out with costs more than the manufacturers you mentioned have tied up in their WHOLE bows! It will come in at just under 2K.

Keep in mind that the only mark-up your paying is the manufacturer's, and even at that, it’s less points than the companies you mentioned. Dollar for dollar, your getting more bow. 


Before everyone has a fit, let me just say, archery has become big business, and attracts some for purely business reasons. It’s becoming increasingly difficult for the little guys to start up and compete, unless you have a niche. The big guys can’t fill all the niches, so there are cracks for the little guys to fill. 

I could not compete at a price point that the big guys call “top of the line”, and I use that term loosely. Their volume alone opens doors to manufacturing techniques and material pricing that makes it next to impossible for you – or I – to compete. Just so happened that the bow I wanted, nobody made, fit into a category that wasn’t being explored much (in archery).

I like to play around with new bows as often and as much as the next guy, but at the end of the day, I’ve hunted with the same bow for about 6 years. Many folks (I’ve done a lot of guiding) never really know what went wrong when they don’t hit well in a hunting situation. I’ve been there and done that my share, and been in on others misfortune more times than I care to remember. With the effort I put into being proficient, something going wrong within my effective range doesn’t just wreck my day, it wrecks my year…I have some memorable misses that I would give my left one to have back today, but it doesn’t work that way.  

My hunting bow must be an extension of my left arm, where I point, it hits, period. Doesn’t matter how hard the heart is pounding, how big the buck is, or how awkward the shooting position – when I draw the string back at an animal I NEED to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the bow will deliver the arrow to the point of aim. In the back of every bowhunters mind is the niggling question when something goes wrong – WHAT went wrong? Me, the bow, the arrow, the animal? The equipment simply does the same thing over and over; it’s the person running it that changes subtly from shot to shot. I define a top end hunting bow as one that lets you get away with mistakes, minor form flaws, poor back tension, contorted positions, and the likes, you know, your everyday, run of the mill hunting shot. (This has little to do with the actual speed you prefer, only how you store the energy.) 

I find it ironic that a good hunting bow is usually toted as the fastest rated rig out there for a given PDF. A marketing success story maybe, a bowhunting success story, not.

There’s more than you probably cared to hear, but, I would be sorely disappointed to sell a bow to someone that was expecting a “me too” hunting bow. I’ll leave that to the big guys to cover. 

Jungle.


----------



## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

The story and intention of making your bow reminds of my own story about my broadheads.
Those damn things just have to work even under the most unfortunate conditions.

It's the same situation regarding business competition, too.
I can hardly make the small parts just for the consumer price the big manufacturers can throw their broadheads on the market but everyone realizes the difference just by holding them in his hands even before he sees them in action.

Hope to see that bow soon. 

Markus


----------



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Jungle,

No big deal on the thru pins, really, as I always press my bows and remove the string and cables first if I want to back the limbs bolts out.
Virtually zero stress on the threads in the riser doing it that way.
But the steel helicoil suggested by Markus sounds like a great idea!
As you can probably tell by the list below my signature, I like to shoot the best equipment 
Look forward to seeing pics of your entire bow. 
The best of luck to you and hope you sell many bows!


Sag.


----------



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

*name of the bow*

Jungle,

Since you put it that way, I have a good guess what the name of your bow will be.
Might just have to get one from you. 


Markus,

That's a good looking broadhead in your Avatar!
Might have to try those too.


Sag.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Marcus,

As the industry matures, I can see a scenario similar to the firearms industry, where you can buy a brand name varmint rifle for a few hundred dollars, or, a custom type stock/action/barrel combo for – more. Squeezing that last bit out of the basic designs sees the costs go up un-proportionately.

Sag,

The limb bolt holes are drilled almost 4”, and tapped 3 ½”, you can use up to a 4” limb bolt which gives you lots of threads to carry the load. 

Thank-you for your input, I have fretted and planned for 3 years tweaking the design, it’s easy to loose your objectivity, I value any and all constructive comments.

Jungle.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

I've posted a photo in the Bowhunting section under "First Blood etc." of the Mule deer mentioned earlier.

Jungle


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Guys,

Judging by the amount of PM’s I’m getting there is plenty of interest in this type of bow. Perhaps there is some unwritten connotation w/ a bow this pricey, and designed to shoot easily, I don’t know, but my fingers are getting tired. Please post general questions here until my info is printed. I will also create a PDF version for those that prefer that format. Combined w/ the web site, you’ll have all you ever wanted to know with regards to this bow. 

As mentioned before, I can’t quite go into big time detail just yet, but I’ll answer what I can.

This isn’t some hair brain design, on this project I’ve consulted with a handful of people that combined, represent nearly 200 years of experience in both bow design and bowhunting expertise. This is in addition to the original equipment contributors.

Don’t be so quick to judge, you don’t know how far in your mouth your foot is going, that much I promise you. 

Jim.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

ttt for Fireman.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

*Progressing nicely* 

Should be able to post something good mid next week, as legal hurdles are cleared.

Jungle.


----------



## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Jungle said:


> *Yes, it isn?t for the budget conscious, only those that want to hit better in the field.
> 
> You get what you pay for. *


For a young Albertan like myself. I'm not sure I can afford your price point.

Maybe later. When I've got a career.


----------



## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Jungle , I hope you incorporate a grip with an extension that goes a ways back over the top of the thumb so that the bow hand doesn`t slide up and down the grip. It makes the vertical impact point much more consistent. Also a grip that will accommodate a low wrist position or at least a choice between wrist positions.
One other thing that I think would be cool is to eliminate the cable guard altogether. Two roller guards that offset the cables out of the way of the string (sort of like the Mathews roller cable guard),one at the top of the riser and one at the bottom of the riser would be a good idea. The cable is brought straight down from the cam and then routed at an angle away from the string plane with a couple of rollers. Might lose a little speed, but for ultimate accuracy, who cares.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Hi guys,

I've just returned from being out on the road, give me a bit to catch my breath, and answer your questions/comments properly.

Thanks,
Jungle.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

MerlinApexDylan,

If you think buying one is bad, you probably wouldn’t like trying to set-up to manufacture several…it’s meant to be a bow that’ll last a lifetime. 

So that it’s not made redundant by any subsequent developments, I will offer limb/cam options alone for existing Moon patrons, making your bow timeless.

I don’t buy into changing the line-up every year, when something works that’s the last thing I’m thinking about. Instead, I will add a new handle now and again to eventually cover the spectrum of taste.

I went at this in kind of a backwards way, eventually ending up with something I thought would be accepted present day – in the process, I’ve got the next few years covered!

Jungle.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Deadx,

The inherent problems associated with everything needing to run through the center was definitely on my mind, and is fully addressed in another riser that is sitting for now.

Martin, Barnsdale, & Bowman (as you no doubt know) use a 3 track cam which is awesome, but I fretted about nocking arrows through the system for hunting applications. Perhaps it wouldn’t be a big deal, especially for tree stand hunting.

One can still net planar string travel, laterally, however, that plane isn’t always parallel with the handle. It’s a compromise situation and as I began putting this bow together, I quickly realized that I needed to get something working first, before getting fancy.

Grips, another area of GREAT interest to me – it’s a low wrist self grip w/ or without leather wrap. I’ll need a bit of time to fully describe what’s gone into it.

Jungle.


----------



## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

"


> The billet of aluminum I start out with costs more than the manufacturers you mentioned have tied up in their WHOLE bows! It will come in at just under 2K.


Sorry if I didn't get it the first time, but are you saying the cost of this bow will be around $2K? And am I correct is saying that you're targeting the hunters than anyone else for the purchase of this bow? I may be wrong but most bowhunters don't want to spend much more than $600 for their bow. Am I missing something or am I the only one who thinks this way?


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

stinky1,

The bow will sell for $1969.00

Yes, this bow was designed primarily for hunters; however, I have never professed to have come up with a bow that would sell to the masses. You probably aren’t wrong that MOST want a $600 bow. There are MANY for you to choose from.

Thanks for your comments; sorry it’s not what you’re looking for. 

Jungle.


----------



## stinky1 (Feb 20, 2003)

Jungle, the bow may be what I'm looking for, but it looks like at a price I definitely won't be able to afford. I'm still looking forward to see what it is though. Good luck with your adventure.


----------



## Jungle (Aug 1, 2004)

Stinky 1,

Thank-you for the luck, I may very well need it!

Please allow me to clarify my position, as this is sure to be a touchy subject for many.

I own but 2 pieces of top end gear, my binoculars, and my boots, and they are the best money can buy. Save those two things, everything else I own is…not top of the line. I have longed for a bow to round out my “what’s important to me” list. 

They say ignorance is bliss, but fail to mention that reality eventually sets in. I designed it without consideration for manufacturing, but only function. You may be able to imagine given your profession, the shock I was in for as the quotes came in to machine it. Most wouldn’t touch it with a 10’ pole, but I eventually lucked out in finding a traditional archer – that also happens to own a large, successful machine shop. He liked the bow in principle, and believed in my vision, or else it wouldn’t be here as another option for those so inclined. 

He got me close enough to the dreaded $1999.99 (a marketing consideration) mark that I ate the rest. I hope that one day I can put together a bow for you, no, not for the sale, but rather so you get more enjoyment out of shooting and hunting. I believe this bow will do that for those that shoot it – with every fiber in my body. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t take the time to make sure you knew where I was coming from.

Enough said about that, hope you have a good fall, and I will value any comments you might have when the time comes.

Sincerely,
Jim.


----------

