# Traditional bow for 3D.



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

St1ckman said:


> So i want to shoot 3D here locally at a club and was wondering what most guys that shoot traditional bows what # is average or necessary?
> 
> Since i don't need penetration for hunting purposes and i understand a heavier bow will be faster therefore flatter trajectory what do most guys use? I have a #40 bow right now and was wondering for my next one what should i use if all i'm doing is 3D.


Speed is more relative to your choice in bow manufacturere/bow limb and in the arrows you choose in regards to grains/pound of draw weight.

In fact...at a certain point in draw weight...a bow will begin to loose speed at grains/pound of draw weight...so going heavier isn't always the answer.

40lbs. with the right arrow and right bow should be plenty fast enough. Just look at what FITA or Olympic archers use...because their shooting anywhere from 30 - 90 meters outdoors.

I believe the average male is shooting anywhere from 40 - 50lbs. in target competition.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Speed and stability are super important for 3D.

If you are precise in your shooting then the game becomes about estimating distances. A bow which is faster makes that job a lot easier.

So "what bow" becomes a little more complicated.

There are two components to a fast bow. One is light arrows, the other is efficiency shooting them.
You can shoot a heavy bow but if it won't tolerate light arrows then its never going to be that fast. It will have lots of ballistic energy, but at 3D all that does is make your life harder when you plant one in a tree. On the flip side, you can shoot a light bow with very light arrows and have all the speed you need if it was designed with that in mind.

Then you have stability.

This is also called forgiving. Basically its an easy bow to shoot. Minor errors are not amplified. Generally longer bows with higher brace heights will be more forgiving. If you shoot in a class that allows it a flipper rest and plunger can let you tune the bow to maximize its stability.
3D isn't (usually) a flat field affair. Sometimes your form will be compromised; shooting up, down and uneven footing.

So what bow are we talking about here. For that we need to look at two things:
#1 is the rules. What national body or local rule set are you following?
#2 is what works for other people. Not necessarily 3D shooters either. There are two other disciplines which use bows that perform really well in the speed and stability categories. Those are field and FITA.
#3 is budget. It doesn't have to be that much! Don't get suckered into the celebrity endorsed "wonderbow". And don't get hung-up on pretty either, 3D can be just as hard (cosmetically) on a bow as hunting.

Locally the highest placing 3D shooters are using FITA equipment under 40lbs in NFAA trad class.

-Grant


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

There is a trend in 3D archery to use lighter weight bows with light arrows. Bows in the 35-45# range are common. I think your 40# bow is just about right for weight and if you need more speed then lighter arrows would be a good place to look. Beware, lighter arrows (more speed) will increase your gaps at closer distances and increase your point on distance. This may actually hurt your score more than it helps.........


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

It might just be me but very light arrows will somtimes bounce off/out of foam targets depending on the shot. 3D is a alot like hunting you need momentum on those longer shots. I went back to good ol heavy hunting arrows after a few bounce outs. There are rules for scoring such shots but who wants to get the rule book out. I had a 12 hanging in a gator and it fell out while we were walking up to it. I had to re-shoot it, got a 9 out of it.
I am sure there are bounce outs with heavy arrows and heavy bows but so far none for me. My 50 lb bows with 190 grain points on POC's will give you a fit pulling them out of the target. 
Might just be me.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Eldermike said:


> It might just be me but very light arrows will sometimes bounce off/out of foam targets depending on the shot. 3D is a alot like hunting you need momentum on those longer shots. I went back to good ol heavy hunting arrows after a few bounce outs. There are rules for scoring such shots but who wants to get the rule book out. I had a 12 hanging in a gator and it fell out while we were walking up to it. I had to re-shoot it, got a 9 out of it.
> I am sure there are bounce outs with heavy arrows and heavy bows but so far none for me. My 50 lb bows with 190 grain points on POC's will give you a fit pulling them out of the target.
> Might just be me.


I haven't noticed a problem on either Reinhardt or McKenzie targets even below freezing out to 45yds. But my arrows are very skinny carbons.
I'm shooting a 270gr arrow around 200fps or maybe a bit faster, about 36lbs on the fingers. I just ordered a set of 30lb limbs, but they shouldn't loose me any speed with those arrows.

A big consideration is retained speed. I shoot fairly small vanes and plan to go smaller, if you shoot large feathers and thick arrows they would probably get to be pretty slow by the time they made it down range on the longer shots.

Last 3D I shot I was squadded-up with a bunch of more traditional, trad shooters 
They were shooting between 45 and 65lbs for bow weight and mostly POC arrows. My bow was clearly much faster and kept the speed better down range. Oddly enough my arrows penetrated nearly as far as their field-points, but were much easier to get out. Some sort of physics at work there, perhaps sharp points is more of a factor for 3D then we think?

I've been shooting trad most of my life, I haven't shot a weight this low since I was a young teen and I'm loving it.

To the OP: What bow do you have now? If it can handle it well, a more target focused arrow might just be the ticket.

-Grant


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

Grant,

I have a Samick Sage #40. I'm asking because i want to get some information on what to look for when i get my next bow. Not hunting with it just want to do 3D.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

St1ckman said:


> Grant,
> 
> I have a Samick Sage #40. I'm asking because i want to get some information on what to look for when i get my next bow. Not hunting with it just want to do 3D.


What is your budget and what rules do you shoot under?

Those two questions are pretty much at the core of the decision.

-Grant


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## SoCalArcher (May 22, 2009)

Many people use the 3D shoots as hunting practice and therefore use their hunting rigs (40 - 60#). If you're strictly a paper or 3D shooter, then 25 - 35# is just about right. My nephews only shoot 3D and their bows are 25#, shooting 225 gr arrows.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Here is my 3D Setup:

21" Hoyt Excel ILF riser, 38# 62" AMO, Short TradTech Black Max Limbs, Cavalier Free Flyte Rest, 12" B-Stinger Stabilizer, 31" 440gr Beman ICS 500

30 yard Point On....14" gap at 15 Yards


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> Here is my 3D Setup:
> 
> 21" Hoyt Excel ILF riser, 38# 62" AMO, Short TradTech Black Max Limbs, Cavalier Free Flyte Rest, 12" B-Stinger Stabilizer, 31" 440gr Beman ICS 500
> 
> 30 yard Point On....14" gap at 15 Yards


You shoot IBO?

-Grant


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## Targets3D (Jan 25, 2010)

Don't mean to detract from the subject but wondering if I could be getting better speed out of my bow with different arrows. 21" Hoyt Excel rise with 35#TT limbs (62" bow), my draw length is around 25.5". Currently shooting Carbon Express Predator 2040s (600 spine) with 100gr tips 21/64. Any speedier arrow options that would still work on a 3D target?


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## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

I have a martin hunter setup with a peak weight of 49 lbs at 28 inch draw. My actual draw is 28 1/2, I am using bemen 500 arrows cut to 29 1/2 inch with 3 five inch feathers. I use this for both 3D and hunting with 125 gr points. 
NOw some use 35 lb bow for 3D's, I found for me I have a bigger problem in the gap and also getting a clean realse with the lower weight bow.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

grantmac said:


> You shoot IBO?
> 
> -Grant


So far this year I have only shot ASA Indoors. I'll probably attend some state level ASA & IBO shoots during the outdoor season. 

This setup is legal for ASA Traditional and IBO Recurve Unlimited classes.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Targets3D said:


> Don't mean to detract from the subject but wondering if I could be getting better speed out of my bow with different arrows. 21" Hoyt Excel rise with 35#TT limbs (62" bow), my draw length is around 25.5". Currently shooting Carbon Express Predator 2040s (600 spine) with 100gr tips 21/64. Any speedier arrow options that would still work on a 3D target?


How much do your arrows weigh and are signifcantly lighter ones avaiable? 

You can get a faster arrow then it may shoot faster from a FPS perspective, but your gap and point could increase signicantly. This matters greatly to me as a gap shooter who wears galsses (forcing me to a lower 3 under archor). As an example if I shoot a 29" 7gr/lb arrow then my point on increases to almost 40 yards and my gap increases to about 23". Technically it is shooting faster and flatter, but for me personally it is much more difficult to shoot 3Ds at different sized foam animals at ASA & IBO distances.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

grantmac said:


> I haven't noticed a problem on either Reinhardt or McKenzie targets even below freezing out to 45yds. But my arrows are very skinny carbons.
> I'm shooting a 270gr arrow around 200fps or maybe a bit faster, about 36lbs on the fingers. I just ordered a set of 30lb limbs, but they shouldn't loose me any speed with those arrows.
> 
> A big consideration is retained speed. I shoot fairly small vanes and plan to go smaller, if you shoot large feathers and thick arrows they would probably get to be pretty slow by the time they made it down range on the longer shots.
> ...


In momentum numbers (at the bow) you are about 7.72 foot pounds/sec and those POC's about 15 foot pounds/sec. But given the smaller feathers you might be about equal at a longer distance shot given they would scrub off alot of speed. Small dia is a factor also.

In my limited experience most bounce outs come from hitting the target in a spot that's been shot up. In those cases you need to get deeper than the last guy or your arrow is hanging there. But like I said it might be just me.

Overall I take 3D as hunting. I keep my score with -5's even though I turn in the 5's like everyone else. My goal is to make all kill shots or miss totally. I would never take a 45 yard shot at a deer so those targets do not matter to me. Needless to say I don't win often (I have won a few), but that's not my goal.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

I built a bow just for 3D this year. Its 40#. Im shooting better than ever. Havent had any penetration issues or bounce outs


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> How much do your arrows weigh and are signifcantly lighter ones avaiable?
> 
> You can get a faster arrow then it may shoot faster from a FPS perspective, but your gap and point could increase signicantly. This matters greatly to me as a gap shooter who wears galsses (forcing me to a lower 3 under archor). As an example if I shoot a 29" 7gr/lb arrow then my point on increases to almost 40 yards and my gap increases to about 23". Technically it is shooting faster and flatter, but for me personally it is much more difficult to shoot 3Ds at different sized foam animals at ASA & IBO distances.


You can change the gap and point-on relationship with longer arrows rather than going significantly heavier. I'm looking at shooting 30-31" 710 spine arrows with 50gr points and tiny vanes as my next experiment. I'm trying to keep near a 40yd point-on while decreasing my near gaps, currently shooting a 50yd point on with 29" arrows and it gets challenging up close. Thats with a high anchor.

For IBO and ASA distances having a 25-30yd point on definitely has some advantages. Although I though both those disciplines allowed stringwalking?

-Grant


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

grantmac said:


> What is your budget and what rules do you shoot under?
> 
> Those two questions are pretty much at the core of the decision.
> 
> -Grant


Budget, probably $700. I read the rules on hat club site and i think for traditional recurve it's split for w/o sights. My main concern was the weight, what # pull the average guy uses if you were only using it for 3D.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

stringwalking is only allowed in IBO's RU ( recurve un-aided class). It is not allowed in TRD or LB


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

St1ckman said:


> Budget, probably $700. I read the rules on hat club site and i think for traditional recurve it's split for w/o sights. My main concern was the weight, what # pull the average guy uses if you were only using it for 3D.


Well with that sort of budget I'd take a long hard look at what the barebow FITA guys are shooting.

You could get an Excel riser with exceptional limbs, or a really nice barebow riser with a set of TT black max carbons.
Or you could do the Excel and TT limbs then put the remaining $300 into a good rest, plunger, tab and arrows.

Any one of those options could win at a national level in NFAA, ASA or IBO.

-Grant

P.S. I'd think about 34-38lbs on the fingers at your draw length personally.


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Well with that sort of budget I'd take a long hard look at what the barebow FITA guys are shooting.
> 
> You could get an Excel riser with exceptional limbs, or a really nice barebow riser with a set of TT black max carbons.
> Or you could do the Excel and TT limbs then put the remaining $300 into a good rest, plunger, tab and arrows.
> ...




Thanks for the info.


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

grantmac said:


> You could get an Excel riser with exceptional limbs.


What limbs would you suggest?


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

centershot said:


> Beware, lighter arrows (more speed) will increase your gaps at closer distances and increase your point on distance. This may actually hurt your score more than it helps.........


Can you explain it in more detail what "gaps" and "Point of Distance mean?" Sorry, i'm trying to learn all this as I'm relatively new to this (2 months), i'm not sure what you mean.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

St1ckman said:


> Can you explain it in more detail what "gaps" and "Point of Distance mean?" Sorry, i'm trying to learn all this as I'm relatively new to this (2 months), i'm not sure what you mean.


Gaps meaning you will have to shoot further under the target at close range. "Point on" meaning when the tip of your arrow touches where it will impact on the target.

There are a few ways to keep your speed up and still have relatively small gaps. One is to shoot with a higher anchor if you can, the other is to shoot longer arrows.
Longer arrows can be difficult to build light and stiff enough though, which can loose you some speed.

It all comes down to what the shoots you attend are like. If they are IBO or ASA and no shots will be over 30yds then it doesn't make sense to have a point-on distance of +50yds. Around here we shoot NFAA and some shots can get nearly that far.

As to your limb question:
Honestly the TT Black Max limbs are the match of most limbs going for twice the price or thereabouts, and they just plain look awesome. Plus you are still learning what you want in weight. 

What constitutes the "best" limbs is up for some serious debate. I personally feel that Border makes the most advanced recurve limbs in the world, but they are not a universal favorite.

Don't forget that a rest and plunger can cost anywhere from $50 to $150 depending on what you are after, if your rules allow them.

-Grant


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Gaps meaning you will have to shoot further under the target at close range. "Point on" meaning when the tip of your arrow touches where it will impact on the target.
> 
> There are a few ways to keep your speed up and still have relatively small gaps. One is to shoot with a higher anchor if you can, the other is to shoot longer arrows.
> Longer arrows can be difficult to build light and stiff enough though, which can loose you some speed.
> ...



Thanks Grant, appreciate the info.


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## St1ckman (Feb 14, 2011)

trapperDave said:


> I built a bow just for 3D this year. Its 40#. Im shooting better than ever. Havent had any penetration issues or bounce outs


Dave, can you share what components you put together?


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

started with a PSE silverhawk compound, stripped it of offending appendages and installed some of warped arrows ILF plates, picked up a barely used pair of PSE Competition limbs (W&W made) and here ya have it








built up the shelf to shoot TRD class


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## Okie1bow (Jul 26, 2006)

I have [2] BW 1200 T/D, HB's, 62" long, both are 46 #'s @ 28" [I draw 29"] and shoot like they are new. Both are 1968 modles. I had one completely restored. BW, IMHO, has never built a finer design. I also have an X-200, 89, 101, 1350 and a couple others. The 60's were the glory days in American bow building, I think. B.W., Hoyt, Pearson, Wing, Bear, and sooooooo many others were at their pinical then. All brands were truely "hand built" and yes there are a few ways we now can make them even a little better but todays technology will enhance "technology only" and only slightly enhance craftsmanship and beauty. In Olympic competition between 1948 and 1960, Archery was a Gold certificate sport, only. No matter what the official line from the I.O.C., the reral reason it was not an Olympic medel sport was that the USA was so far advanced in the "Boyer's art" it was not a fair competition! So if you run across a quality bow from that era, 3D is just made for them. They are smooth, fast and quiet.


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