# target panic...recurve to compound



## Atech (Mar 11, 2006)

hi folks,i think i have come to the end of the line as far as archery is concerned and its a very sad time for me.
I have struggled and i mean struggled with target panic for the last ten months shooting recuve,so much so that i am having trouble even keeping the arrows on the target at 30 metres,i now feel like the guy in deliverance that couldnt take the shot,if i dont shoot to quick then instead i freeze,just cant seem to win.
I am sure quite a few of you have been here before,i am the best yard shooter ever born, but put me in front of other people and i feel like i have been abducted by aliens and some halfwit that looks like me has been left in my place.
Anyhow i aint expecting a miracle cure from anyone,all i really wanted to know was have any of you made the change from recurve to compound and found that it cured your panic or did you just change one set of problems for another.
I would change to compound if i thought it would help me,but i dont really want to go to the expense of finding out i have made a very costly mistake,if truth be known i think i already know the answer but i live in the hope i will be surprised.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Atech -

You can go through all the psych mumbo-jumbo and self-searching you like or you can quit. That's you're business. Assuming you're not over-bowed, the TP you're describing comes from one thing and one thing only. You have a confidence problem in your shot and because of that you can't control the shot sequence. That's why it's worse with people around - they serve as negative triggers.

It comes down to develping that confidence and getting (regaining) the control of the shot. The exercise for that hasn't changed in decades.

Start with no fire drills. Set up and go through your normal shot sequence, break the clicker and let down. Keep doing that until you're so feed up with it, you're convinced that ain't the problem, NEXT time out, repeat the exercise. If all goes well, try a shot at a real target. If it works great! If not back to the on fire drill. Do this is a non-threatening environment.

Once you can shoot that way with no one around, start doing it in front of people. Friendlies at first and then "other" folks. The way to break the negative triggers is to make them positive triggers. Change the lack of confidence you currently have in front of people to a feeling of showing off. Yeah, don't "ignore them" or "block them out", it doesn't work - never did. Feed off of them - SHOW OFF. Take your best shot and it will be your BEST SHOT. In other words, if you really don't believe you can do it, deep down inside, then you can't - if you do, then you will.

Very simple in theory, but it does take work and for some folks a lot of work. 

Good luck, just remember, the choice is YOURS.

Viper1 out.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Atech said:


> hi folks,i think i have come to the end of the line as far as archery is concerned and its a very sad time for me.
> I have struggled and i mean struggled with target panic for the last ten months shooting recuve,so much so that i am having trouble even keeping the arrows on the target at 30 metres,i now feel like the guy in deliverance that couldnt take the shot,if i dont shoot to quick then instead i freeze,just cant seem to win.


That is a bummer to hear. I feel your pain since I am in the middle of a slump myself, I haven't been able to shake myself loose from it.

I assume you have done some of the standard stuff, shooting without a sight (at close distances) with you eyes closed on a blank bale and all that right? 



> I am sure quite a few of you have been here before,i am the best yard shooter ever born, but put me in front of other people and i feel like i have been abducted by aliens and some halfwit that looks like me has been left in my place.


I know how you feel. Even when I've been shooting good, if I'm the last one on the line I can guarantee a bad shot.



> Anyhow i aint expecting a miracle cure from anyone,all i really wanted to know was have any of you made the change from recurve to compound and found that it cured your panic or did you just change one set of problems for another.


I actually found that going from compound to recurve my problems got better. If your problem is over-aiming I don't think switching disciplines is going to help (sorry)



> I would change to compound if i thought it would help me,but i dont really want to go to the expense of finding out i have made a very costly mistake,if truth be known i think i already know the answer but i live in the hope i will be surprised.
> Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.


Go back to having fun. Grab a selfbow and go shoot at pie plates, or balloons. Take your sight off and shoot at 10-20 yards at balloons. Those are fun. These are things that can help you stop aiming so hard!


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Viper is right, but target panic is yet one other thing.......the process of you trying to aim and releasing at the same time.

My daughter went through it, as I have been, and we both came out of it unscaved, as you can too.

Do as has been described. Also, start up close and think about your shot at a blank bale. Get your shot down right, and again, untill you're sick of it. Next, put a paper plate on that blank bale (5 yards max) and again, practice your shot. make it smaller and smaller, a little at a time. Then when you're sick of that, put a target up in private at a close range.......10 yards. Keep thinking about your shot, not aiming. Let the aiming happen on it's own. As you back up, you'll find you're doing better.

Best of luck to you! It's a tough road to travel, but you WILL come out the other side a better person for it. The only other thing is, remember, it's all in your mind, so be strong!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Hunts -

You're describing a symptom, not the cause. That's why the blank bale and closed eye stuff only has occassional success. As soon as a real target is in sight, all heck breaks loose. The re-programming necessary has less to do with technique and more with mindset. The guy with TP has to believe he can and WILL make the shot correctly. Now, there may be several ways to do that. The first step is believing he can hold the for as long as he is physically able AND CAN let down without releasing. That's why the no fire drills work, but they are also incredibly boring - that's why a lot of people do, in fact, give up. 

Viper1 out.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Viper1 said:


> Hunts -
> 
> You're describing a symptom, not the cause. That's why the blank bale and closed eye stuff only has occassional success. As soon as a real target is in sight, all heck breaks loose. The re-programming necessary has less to do with technique and more with mindset. The guy with TP has to believe he can and WILL make the shot correctly. Now, there may be several ways to do that. The first step is believing he can hold the for as long as he is physically able AND CAN let down without releasing. That's why the no fire drills work, but they are also incredibly boring - that's why a lot of people do, in fact, give up.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Viper,

It is possible you are completely right and I'm dead wrong, but what is described as target panic is a lot of times just over-aiming and concentrating on the wrong thing. I shoot my best when I concentrate more on my shot execution than the X. I agree that it is a mental thing, but not a confidence issue.

I think the first step is not just trying to re-arrange your thinking, but take the target away and train your muscles with the correct form which you can't concentrate on if all you can think about is hitting the X. Then when the muscles are trained, put a target without a center, like a balloon. After the concentration is on the back, and execution instead of the aiming point, start with a 3-spot at 10 yards, moving it back 2 yards every two weeks.

*shrug*


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

spangler -

It's not a right or wrong thing, just a variation on a theme. What you're describing is a pretty std theory and does sometimes work. It's a form of behavior modification by letting the shooter ease back into the game and not psychologically diametrically opposed to what I suggested. A by product of your version is the confidence building I alluded to. It certainly does hone the shooter's skill and that too has a positive effect. The only problem is that he still has to deal with a real target, with real people around sooner or later. That's where the re-programming thing comes in, IMHO.

Viper 1 out.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I might ask the question "do you still love to shoot?"

Not for score, nor group size, nor recognition from your peers, but for the sheer enjoyment of firing arrows downrange.

If you do, and you want to continue doing so, then Viper1's drills are helpful. 

You will also need to readjust your expectations to having none when it comes to score/holes in the target.

Focus solely on the process while doing whatever drill keeps you interested and happy. 

You'll also have to come to grips with your current mental state, whatever that may be. 

Everyone that shoots goes through this. It can be bad enough to make one want to throw their bow into the street. 

Got a local coach? I'd use them if there's one available. Even a shooting buddy can be of great help for positive feedback and informal coaching. 

Stay strong, this too shall pass...


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## VinZ (Apr 30, 2007)

*a short story to encourage you*

A student of mine developed Target panic and a very bad case when I was on holiday about 2~1½ year ago. He couldn't even get de arrows on the target (his bottom was 4 points in 25 arrows on 25 meters). But _he loves to shoot_. We worked hard to get it under control. He amazed everyone (even me) with his persistence en tenacity and beaten the ugly monster - earning a lot of respect from everyone in the process. And that's not all: he is now in a talent training program.
I hope you gain strength from this short story to go and beat this thing!


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## marty (Jun 4, 2002)

I feel for you. Target panic can really frustrating. I've had moments where I just couldn't even shoot. I would do the blank bale thing and it would help for a while, but as soon as I put on a target I would start to freeze.

The folks here are right, it's a lack of confidence and a fear of missing. It's amazing what the mind does, I would become so fearful that I couldn't make the shot that I would fail.

A simple question, assuming you are a target archer, are you using a clicker properly? An improperly set up clicker can actually make target panic more of a problem. Try concentrating more on the shot and less on aiming. Some very good archers don't spend much effort on aiming.

I shoot both compound/release and FITA recurve. I've found that sometimes shooting a compound with a release can really be helpful, but the release has to be a "surprise" otherwise I end up with another variation of target panic.

You might want to try a back tension release with your recurve. The setup won't be right, but the cost of trying this out can be relatively small. Back when compounds were new, many folks shot this way with good results.

Good luck.


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

You can develop TP with a BT just as easily, give it about a year of using the BT and it can or will come back. I can not shoot trigger releases, so i went to BT. They are the only reason i can shoot a bow whatsoever. However, i still get TP about 3 or 4 times a year it is seeming. It really ticked me off because it on set a week before a national shoot that i REALLY wanted to go to, and it almost ruined the entire event for me. I missed the first target because i jerked the darn release. For the next 28 or so targets i was shooting the smoothest shots i'd ever made. Then, it magically came back again on the last ten. I understand where you all say its a fear of missing, or a lack of confidence, but how can this be true when ever fiber of your body KNOWS that you can and WILL hit exactly where your aiming if only your mind lets you? For me it's like a mental override and shooting becomes an involuntary action such as breathing. Just as Atech described, i either bring my bow up and shoot immediately, or i sit there with locked arms until i yank the cam off the hinge. I must of cured this 3 or 4 times already, and ive been fighting this for a week, going on two. Within that span, its been fixed and i was back to shooting 60 yards on multiple occasions. Then for some reason i suddenly lost control of what i was doing. 

After reading all this, i believe this is stuff is what i needed to hear. I'll try doing what you all suggested, the balloon idea and all, and the paper plate with slowly incrementing yardages. I'm glad i skimmed over the FITA section of AT. Thanks folks.


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## Tropicalfruitmo (Mar 17, 2005)

I feel your pain! I've been there with compound, so has my daughter. I've worked with many archers over the last few years with TP. A change of equipment may give your muscles a chance to do something else. I know that, when TP strikes me, I put down my compound and grab a recurve for a while. It seems to help.

If you don't already have a coach, get one. Coaches can usually pick up that little hitch that's messing everything up. It's usually something really small that totally messes everything up, then you start losing confidence and it just gets worse from there.

Best of luck to you!


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## bdca (Apr 9, 2007)

I will second the back tension release. I recently switched from a trigger and within a few days I was shooting consistant groups. The nice thing about a BT release, is that you can practice with a piece of rope anywhere. Another option is to remove the pin from your scope or sight.

I recently finished Core Archery, which I found invaluable.

Cya

Bob


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

Bdca mentioning "core archery" made me think of something else.

Has anyone here ever read the book "inner tennis"? It's an older book that was written by a tennis player, essentially about tennis, but the fundamentals have been applied to many other sports. My brother told me that this old pool player he once met said that reading this book was the best thing he'd ever done for his mentality in pool. We're ordering two copies and are going to see what it can do.


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## bdca (Apr 9, 2007)

Core Archery is basically about back tension, which should be second nature for finger release archers. Well worth the read.

This is an article by the author.

Cya!


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

ATech

I don't think you have classical target panic at all. I used to have it when I was young and when you have the real mckoy, you can't even come on aim on a practice target in your own back yard. THAT'S target panic.

You are saying that you shoot pretty well in your own backyard. I assume from that, that you have no trouble coming on aim, holding and then releasing smoothly?

If you go to pieces in front of other people that is more to do with your self confidence in front of others, than with target panic.

There is a way out of this if you are willing to try it. Next time you go out to shoot with other people, tell them that you go to pieces in front of them and you are going to try to correct this by not releasing a shot if that feeling of anxiety overcomes you. Tell them you would like them to make fun of you (not too insulting, of course) as long as you keep failing to shoot.

Then DO NOT allow yourself to release a shot if you feel the slightest hint of nervousness. If this means you go the whole round without firing a single shot that's OK. What this will do for you is to discipline yourself not to let the anxiety overcome your technique. 

Why have people make fun of you deliberately? Well, you will find after a while that the banter becomes boring and believe it or not it will cease to affect you.

All you have to do is concentrate hard on NOT firing if you feel the slightest hint of nervousness/anxiety.

It may take a few weekends for this to work but I'll bet that it won't be too long before that part of your mind that controls these things soon gets the message and you will feel you nervousness disappearing. Any time it comes back, return to not releasing.

Do you think you are up to trying this?

It won't help by changing to compound. The nervousness about performing in front of others will still be there. THAT is the thing you have to conquer.

Give it a try, eh? What have you got to lose?


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## bdca (Apr 9, 2007)

BTW, rather than switch to a compound, simply tie a loop on your recurve and use a BT release for a while if you want to try the BT method. Hopefully, once mastered, it will convert over to fingers quite easily.

Cya!


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## Nightimer (Jan 22, 2003)

I had target panic (a form of target panic called "gold shy" where you cannot put the sight on the gold).
I had it right up to the day I shot my recurve for the last time.
I was dreading my first arrow with a compound.
But guess what----- THE GOLD SHY HAD VANISHED!!! and I have had no more problems since then.
I think that (in my case) the brain had a whole new sight picture to look at and it "forgot" about gold shyness.
Can you hold you recurve on the gold without an arrow loaded?
I could,but as soon as you put an arrow on the bow I could not get the sight on to the gold.
If you want to pm me I have one or two tricks you could try.

Nightimer


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

I can aim all day long but its a different story when you attempt a shooting procedure. Arrow or not. 

Those no fire drills DO help though.


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## bsu_beginner (Feb 14, 2005)

Ok before this thread goes any further.... if you are an archer... you have had or you do have some form of target panic. If you don't have it to some degree, you aren't trying hard enough.


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

But only some of us get shafted with the severe mental syndrome of not being able to draw back without instantaneously firing  Just recently got through THAT bout with TP...Now we're onto fixing the "i can't fire correctly" issue. -End sarcasm-

On a serious note, i think there should be some kind of neurological procedure to be able to fix this. Or so you would think. I'm not expert on the human brain or how it works, so all this is just uneducated theory and ranting of a crazy man.

We have reflexes, and we develop responses to certain conditions. For example, the baseball player develops a reaction to seeing the ball thrown towards him. Does he sit there and logically decide what he is going to do, or does he instinctively react to the situation? I would hope we'd agree on the latter. How about your sense of smell? Does smelling a certain smell not trigger a memory you may have otherwise forgotten? I know I've remembered many things that i wasn't even remotely close to thinking about at a moment i smelled something familiar. So why would your vision not react in the same manner to seeing a certain picture?

In these serious stages of TP, the mind is acting like a photographical trigger. I don't care much for what people say about how there is no such thing as muscle memory. Maybe not quite, i think that statement is just misworded. Its not muscle memory that is occurring, this is true. Its a different kind of memory that is developing. See spot, react to spot. That reaction is the firing of the bow. But then again I've never experienced anything even remotely CLOSE to TP while shooting a firearm. So would you agree that the only factor in TP is not the mental side, but also a physical one? The body is positively under more stress shooting a bow than shooting a gun. At this point i think I've lost what I'm trying to convey... 

Knowing all of this about how the mind and muscles react with one another, shouldn't there be SOME way to fix this stupid, STUPID issue that we're plagued with? Yes, we can keep working, and working, and working...And start working all over again when it comes back. But how can we permanently get rid of this? There HAS to be some way to do it. Now I'll go outside and shoot my thumb release a few times, and for one or two shots I'll shoot that thing so perfectly it would be like TP never even occurred. But give it a few minutes and i wont be able to hardly look at the target.

Bah, sorry for the rambling, but I thought that maybe discussing this crazy stuff might help some. Like i said, I'm trying your no fire practices, and they do help, but retraining constantly over and over again is getting quite irritating.


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## tacoben (Jun 24, 2004)

Just to throw my 2 cents into this thread....

If I may suggest, try a sight with the biggest apeture you can get or that is allowed. What I found with my target panic problem was, I was concentrating too much on the sight pin and was trying to float that pin dead center on X ring, hence effecting my release. With the bigger aperture, you will widened your view or the area you're aiming at, and chances are, as it was with me, your score/groups will get better.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Here's something I learned about target panic a long time ago. Pick up a rifle and aim it at a target. Do you feel an uncontrollable urge to fire or are you unable to superimpose your sight picture on the target?

I'll bet you don't.

Now ask yourself why.

In the answer to that question lies the cure for target panic.


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

You're a sick sick man corsair. Now i HAVE to do that tomorrow...Thanks for the idea.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

> You're a sick sick man corsair. Now i HAVE to do that tomorrow...Thanks for the idea


Hope it works out for you and more particularly I hope you figure out why you don't have target panic with a rifle.

If you can't, I'll tell you.


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

I think it might have more impact if i figure it out myself, But if i go too long without getting it i'll be sure to hit you up for the answer.  thanks again.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

OK, I'll tell you now. I can;t bear seeing grown men cry. (joke, OK?)

THis will answer *Atech's* PM to me as well.

Lie down with a rifle and support the forend so that it isn't moving, or better still sit at a table and rest the forend on a sandbag. Don't get sucked into a competition to do this ( I don't want to talk about competition stress which is a separate issue altogether).

Now, look over or through the sights and line them up on a target. Keep your finger away from the trigger. When you have the sights nicely lined up , what do you feel? Do you feel and unbearable level of tension? Do you feel fear? Do you feel an unendurable desire to move the sights away from the target?

Chances are, you don't. The reason is simple. You are under no strain to keep the sights on the target. Fact is you can sit there all day and admire the sight picture and not feel in the least bit bad about it, *because you are expending no effort to do so.*

Now put your finger on the trigger. Just let it rest there. Do you feel an uncontrollable urge to fire it? Or do you feel that you must move the sights away from the target before you can fire it?

Chances are, you don't.

Let's say it's target grade air rifle you are aiming. There will be no recoil whatsoever, so you will have no fear of being kicked in the shoulder. Now press the trigger and allow the rifle to fire. Did you feel in any way bad, doing this?

Chances are you didn't. Now if it's a 30-06 that you are firing you may feel some trepidation because it kicks a bit but that will be fear of recoil, which is also another issue altogether.

So how come you can sit comfortably behind a rifle, with its foreend completely steady, and the sights perfectly lined up on the target, and can then press the trigger and fire the thing without suffering a nervous breakdown?

The answer is that the actions I have described are effortless. There is no strain on any part of your body, there is no tension, there is no concern about the sights moving off the target and there is no fear of recoil (if it's an air rifle) and it's a totally relaxed and non-threatening thing to do.

In archery, because of the way we introduce people to the game, the very first thing we teach people is Lesson 1 in How to Get Target Panic. We don't mean to do this but this is the result of our teaching method.

When a person picks up a bow for the first time and draws it, they feel an ever increaing load on their arm and shoulder muscles and on their fingers and it gets worse as you get to full draw - because almost invariably we teach people to shoot first using a basic recurve. BAD idea - but that's just my opinion.

So you've got this poor bugger at full draw, muscles all atremble, fingers hurting and the bow is wavering all over the place and he/she desperately wants to hit the middle of the target ( we all do). What is going to happen? As the bow swings across the middle of the target he/she is going to let go the string probably with an almighty jerk (because he/she hasn't learnt how to release properly yet) and the arrow is going to go literally anywhere. 

The very WORST thing that could happen is if the arrow hits near the centre or in the centre. Why? Because the person doing this will suddenly decide that THIS is how you get a shot in the centre.

The mind has learnt very quickly that what archery is about is having to hold an increasing weight on their fingers, whilst their muscles and their fingers are hurting and if they can manage to let the string go as the bow swings past the centre the will get a reasonable score.

Breaking it down, target panic is composed of three elements - first and foremost is the tension and effort involved in having to draw back the bow with untrained muscles. Second is the fact that the bow (with ot without a sight attached) is going to waver all over the place because you aren't strong enough and practised enough to hold the thing still and finally, there is the overwhelming desire to plant the arrow in the middle of the target and not look like a dork by missing it.

The Koreans have it right. As I understand it, their coaches do not allow a starting archer to touch a bow for nearly six months. During that time they are given proper strengthening exercises and routines to follow to fully prepare them for the first day that they touch a bow. By that time they can draw a bow quite easily and hold it still on target and release the string without any effort at all because they have done it all beforehand without a bow and arrow. I doubt if you will ever hear of a Korean trained archer getting target panic. They may well suffer from some competition nerves but as I said earlier, that is a separate issue altogether.

So for those archers amongst us who have been down the usual path and have graduated to Target Panic cum laude, we have to return to some basics.

The first of these is to understnad what got you here and I've just explained that. All you have to do is believe it.

The next thing to do is to get a much weaker draw weight bow, preferably a recurve and start rebuiilding your body so that you can handle the effort and tension of holding a bow at full draw without undue stress. Now you need to practice. Forget about comps for a while. The best type of practice you can do is to stand in front of a large window, which, if broken, is going to cost you some real money to replace. This is important because now you will have an incentive not to release the arrow..

Now practice drawing the bow with arrow attached, to full draw and holding it as still as you can until you strat to tremble. Then come down and rest for twice the length of time you were able to hold. Repeat this for 5 minutes then have a rest for 10 minutes, then start again. Same thing as before. Do this 10 times if you can or until you feel that you can't come to full draw again.

Repeat this process every day, once per day, for the next week. During the second week, continue with the exercise, only this time, rest between draws only for the length of time you were able to hold at full draw. Repeat 5 times and then rest for 5 minutes. Again, do 10 sets of these or until you can't draw the bow anymore.

During this second week, start doing strengthening exercises with the bow. Come to full draw hold for about 5 seconds, ease out the string to half draw and then without resting come back to full draw. Repeat 5 times and then rest for 2 minutes. Repeat this set 5 times to start with. Do this also every day for a week. in the following week, start doing 10 repetitions with 2 minute breaks in between. Only stop when you feel you can't physiclally draw the bow any more.

In between all of this you should start doing some specific weight training for archers. I think the Health and Fitness section will have something on this.

The aim of the game is after three weeks to be strong enough to hold your bow at full draw without a tremor for at least a full minute, longer if possible, relax and do it again and be able to do this for about 10 minutes.

When you have reached this stage, start working with a heavier bow. Progress now will be a lot faster.

This is somewhat boring work for most people but let's face it, it took quite a length of time to train yourself fully in full blown target panic, so it's going to take a while to get out of it.

The two things you will have taught yourself with this regime is that you CAN draw a bow back and hold it still without any great effort and that as you get better at doing so, your level of mental tension will reduce in direct proportion to the reduction in physical effort required.

Once you get to this stage, it is time to fix the problem of shooting on the fly.

First thing you have to realise is that NO ONE can hold a perfectly still sight picture. Can't be done. When I was doing match rifle shooting, I used to think that my hold was so good that it was machine like - until I started practicing with a 24X telescopic sight and then I saw how much further I had to go. Even when you get very good at using that sort of scope on a rifle, the sight picture will still move.

It will always be worse witrh a bow as it is with a rifle in the standing unsupported position. What you have to learn to do is how to shoot accurately by accepting this wavering. 

The fact is, that if you have followed the regime I described above you should be able to hold pretty still on the target. Any residual movement is normal and constitutes *your* "Circle of Instability". The important lesson here is to learn to accept it and realise that it isn't going to get better without a great deal of practice and even then not by much.

*So accept the fact that you are stuck with it and learn to cope with it.*

This is a mindset only you can learn. You can help yourself by not using precise sights. If you are a recurve archer, get rid of the pin sight and get a circle sight instead, the bigger the better. If you are a compounder, get rid of the magnifying lens and substitute a plane piece of plastic with a large circle on it.

Doing both of these things will immediately cause your Circle of Instability to *look *much smaller. Now get in front of a blank bale and start shooting lots of arrows with no other purpose than to come to a comfortable draw, hold as still as you can, accpet the waver, and just release the shot smoothly.

Keep doing this until you are bored to tears. By now, you should be less concerned about sight waveer.

Now plonk a target on the butt and starting close in do the same thing only this time, do NOT try to hold any better than you can and do NOT permit yourself to release as the sight picture swings past the centre. If you feel the least urge to do this, do NOT release, come down from the draw and start again. Do NOT release a shot if you feel that you are trying to shoot on the fly. Only you can make yourself do this - and you MUST, otherwise you've just wasted a lot of time getting fit for nothing.

The simple fact is that the amount your sights will be wavering by now will have little effect on your group size. In fact your groups will be better than ever. So, ignore the waver and concentrate on sight alignment and a good release. By ignoring the waver you will have removed the third element of target panic.

To summarise - to get out of target panic:

1. Strengthen your muscles so that you can hold a bow comfortably at full draw for an extended period of timie without trembling or feeling a build up of tension in your mind.

2. As you do this you will learn to hold the bow relatively still on the target and continued practice will continue to improve this up to your own limit.

3. Accept the fact that you will always waver on the target and, using sights which are not too precise, concentrate on a good release whilst not worrying about the waver.

How do I know these things will work. Well, this is exactly how it happened for me. My real saviour was the fact that I had to do rifle shooting at the same time because I was in the Army and the rifle shooting taught me that target panic isn't really a mental thing - it's a physical thing which leads on to a mental problem.

I used the above described system to get myself out of target panic with the bow and these days I feel no TP at all. In fact, I can't even remember what it felt like.

I hope this helps you and I hope you aren't disappointed that there is no magic solution to the problem - just understanding the problem and some hard work.

Good luck


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Corsair - 

That was a very long and detailed explanation of a very small part of target panic, and honestly more related to being over-bowed than the mental game. The strain of the weight on the fingers n lead to TP, but in the case of a lot of serious shooters, nothing could be further from reality.

A lot of people with TP, myself included, can hold their "regular" bow at anchor for minutes at a time as long they don't have to release the shot Even reducing the draw weight of the bow by half won't help or stop you from loosing prematurely. Even saw one case where a guy could hold at anchor as long as he'd like, just couldn't anchor in the same place twice. It doesn't have a thing to do with weight. That's why I said that TP has a lot of symptoms, but usually one cause.

BTW - Don't think a rifleman can get TP? It's just not called that. A riflemen in a slump may try to catch a 10 shooting offhand by breaking the sears at the wrong time and a guy shooting a rapid fire string worrying about the clock can start snapping off shots instread of slowing down and making every shot a good one, even if he call get all of them off. 

What you were taught in the Army was a mind game to make you believe it's not a mind game. But yes, there can be a physical initiator, but the end result is mental. The drill you proposed may indeed work, because while the guy is building his muscles he's also reprograming his brain. The real test becomes the next time he has to shoot at a real target under "mental" pressure.

Viper1 out.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

> But yes, there can be a physical initiator, but the end result is mental. Most things are.


I agree and acknowledged that in my posting. Like it or not the initiator for archery TP IS physical followed soon aftrer by a mind set.

Shooting on the fly with a rifle or pistol isn;t target panic - it's a different thing altogether but it is related to one of the target panic elements - trying to achieve a still hold.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Corsair -

This discussion may not go anywhere, but most people I know with or have had TP got it while shooting the same bow, with the same draw weight that they have been using for years. A guy who could shoot 200+ arrows accurately without fatigue, starts having control errors while maintaining a constant shooting schedule isn't having muscle issues. That's why I'm calling it a little different from a new guy being over bowed. For the sake of this thread, I'll assume the shooter is not over-bowed - that may or may not be a correct assumption. 

Regarding the rifle thing, again - while the symptoms are different, look deep enough and the cause will typically be the same. With the rapid fire scenario, I trained guys to take as much time as they needed for every shot, even if it meant loosing points for not completing the string. Then the speed came from practice - they learned they COULD make the shots, and with that confidence came the speed - and yes the physical practice helped too .

In slow fire, that 2 ounce trigger can feel like a ton if the pressure is high enough, a #2 match rifle or #4.5 service rifle trigger can feel a lot heavier if the guy doesn't have confidence in his ability. Either of those triggers feel like nothing with the rifle sitting in your lap with an empty chamber. 

There are a lot of mental and physical tactics than can be used to conquer TP, but an understanding of the cause helps, at least for the coach, if not the student 

Viper1 out.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*Mental game*

I would run away from anyone who suggests that having people make fun of you could be helpful in treating target panic. If there is a trophy for most harmful advice on AT, I believe this would be in the running.

I agree with Viper, you have taken great lengths to describe possible solutions for being over-bowed. While being over-bowed won't help target panic, it is a different problem entirely. 

I recommend signing on to the link below and read carefully the section on target panic under "Mental Game" at our old friend Griv's website. 

http://www.archerylive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=293


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I'm sort of agreeing with you Viper 1 except I took my position based on what I have seen happen to beginners all the time. They may get over it at first but since they never truly resolved the issue it will come back to haunt thme later on.

I've done both match rifle and ISSF target pistol (all disiplines) and I do know what you are talking about except that I don't call what you are describing target panic. I call it "freezing on the tirgger" and for the most part it's a confidence issue and it's also an issue of trying to be far too careful trying not to disturb a precariously fine sight picture whist manipulating the trigger.

I used to be like this with free pistol. I had a russian MU 55-1 whose trigger could be set incredibly light and yes sometimes it feels as if it won't budge. But always the problem was my desire not to distrub my sight picture. I got over it by ignoring the sight picture - in other words I stopped focussing on focussing, if you get my drift and just let it wander as it would and then just touched the trigger off regardless of where the sight picture was. My groups tightened considerably. They got even better when I upped the tempo of my shots. It was a matter of being overly concerned with being too precise and letting that take over my thoughts at the expense of decent shot execution.

I think for archers who can hold well but can't release, it's a similar sort of thing. I don't know this for sure because I have never gotten to this extreme stage but somewhere along the way you must have noticed when this first happened and what was causing it and why you felt the way you did. 

For hunters I can understand it because for many there would be the fear of missing altogether and looking a fool or worse yet missing a vital spot and only wounding the animal or it could even be a subconcious rejection of killing things.

For target shooter it has always been in my experience a concern for not being able to hold a perfect sight picture that is the trigger for this freezing. Perhaps this might be coupled with a fear of not being able to shoot up to your potential and looking bad in front of your friends. Try coming on aim and then closing your eyes and releasing immediately. It does work, although it will feel bloody awful at first.

Anything beyond these things is getting into deep psychology and I am not qualified to comment on those aspects.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

> I would run away from anyone who suggests that having people make fun of you could be helpful in treating target panic. If there is a trophy for most harmful advice on AT, I believe this would be in the running.


I'm sorry you think this. I happen to know that it works and has helped many a shooter get out of a problem they had in performing in front of other people. In the end they could shoot quite calmly and well with all sorts of distractions occurring around them. It's a matter of steeling yourself mentally and you can only learn this by exposing yourself to that which you fear and not running from it.

If you believe otherwise that's fine, but if you haven't tried it, don't knock it.


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

Well I'm torn between you, corsair, and viper here. You recommendations make a lot of sense, and I'd like to try to do something like that, but I don't quite think it has as much to do with draw weight as you suggest. I'm not this plague now, but about a week ago, for a short period, I was shooting my bow as soon as it rolled over the cam and hit the wall. Couldn't even anchor let alone aim and release. It wouldn't matter if i got a lighter weight (draw weight) bow either. I took my old bear Seneca from when i was about 8 or 10 and tried firing that. I took every amount of determination in my body just to do THAT. 

I don't quite think you've ever had this affect you as harshly as i have. I've literally been to the point where TP has affected other parts of my life. And i don't mean just being upset with shooting and being depressed, thats not it. I was actually flinching and sensing that same urge upon doing every day ordinary things. I took me days of mental concentration to be able to visualize a clean shot, and i STILL have trouble doing that every time. At this point in time, I think I'm about clear, for now. I can take my old fletchmatic thumb and pull it just like a rifle trigger, and i can take my BT and set the cam to super long travel and repeatedly go through the routine time and time again. 

My bow is only on 58-ish pounds, or so i think. I guess i might try lowering it down some. I know that speed isn't as important as accuracy, by a long shot, but since i have a super short DL, 26", I really need to get all that i can since i shoot 3D IBO. If my yardage isn't perfect, i will get, and do get, slaughtered by those guys with the 29-30" DL shooting 62 or so pounds with something like 305+ FPS. Sure you still need your yardages to be on, but they wont get as many points deducted for being the same amount off as i will. So, i gotta take what i can get. 

I'll see what happens, thanks again.


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## tedzpony (May 15, 2007)

Atech said:


> hi folks,i think i have come to the end of the line as far as archery is concerned and its a very sad time for me.


Hi there,

I'm a complete newbie here, and I would not even venture to offer you one shred of advice about curing target panic. I couldn't even begin to comment on these kind folks' advice on ways to do it.

But what I will say is this... if it is a very sad time for you, then don't let it be the end of the line. Just make that decision for yourself. Just decide it will not be.

Maybe you'll cure your target panic, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll do it tomorrow, maybe it'll take months or even years. But do you love the sport? Do you love going out into your backyard and shooting? You've already answered those questions in your first statement... a resounding YES.

So, remember that. If that means you give up on competing for now, for a while, or even forever, maybe that's what it means. But don't give up on something you love to do just because there's something in the way of you acheiving something great.

That's something I can speak to, as I once was on the verge of quitting the US Navy Cycling Team because I had convinced myself that I could not ever acheive as much as a few others on my team who were much better than I and I knew they always would be. It made me nervous being around guys who were so much better, and one day it got the best of me and resulted in a pretty major crash. Really bad. Bike frame bent and cracked (aluminum, so that's a lot of force) and a helmet busted into 7 pieces.

Point is, I let my nerves get the better of me to the point that I could not compete at the level I wanted to. But I didn't quit. I just determined to do the best I could. More importantly, though, I determined to remember why I loved to do it at all. I loved to ride my bike long before I loved to race it. That never ended, even with the wreck. And I still ride today. Sometimes for me and the speed, sometimes for the laughter as my little boy rides in the trailer behind my bike.

So, like I said... if you get some advice about curing target panic and it works for you - great. But no matter how that works out, I would politely suggest that you don't give up on something you love - no matter what your mind works out for justification. If you love it, find a way to stick with it.

Just my 2 cents worth...


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Corsair -

You are absolutely right, with a lot of beginners, especailly those without proper (or any) guidence, overbowing is a big concern and one that leads to a whole mess of problems. There is a difference between that what some of us old timers get - arrghhhh. In my case, it had gotten to a point were I couldn't anchor consistently with a #30 bow, but could carry on a converstion with a student while holding a #60 at anchor - and I not talking compounds!

I know in rifle (never shot psitol) that 2 ton trigger deal isn't called TP, but the features are very similar. Freezing on the trigger is quite close to not being able to release; just like not being able to shrink the wabble area with a rifle sight and snap shooting is akin to being able to hold the bow sight anywhere except the bull!!!

No Sir, I don't think we're disagreeing that much at all and there several ways of dealing with TP, the common factor is a positive action on the part of the guy having to deal with it.

Viper1 out.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Viper 1 

I agree. I think we are on the same net but we are using different definitions for the same thing.

I thought I'd better explain my approach to TP that I described in my lengthy diatribe.

It has nothing to do with being overbowed. What my system tries to do is to take the archer right back to the time when they first started and to re-educate them from the ground up as though they had never touched a bow before. That's the reason for going for a very light weight bow.

What I try to do is to change their mindset about the shooting process. Archery is a sport in which mental tension and physical effort go hand in and, each reinforcing the other unless the practitioner has the right sort of mental approach. I agree that there is no magic formula but I try to approach the solution by working with things that I know work, providing the guy with the problem wants to apply himself.

For those for whom target panic has pretty well destroyed their participation in the sport and even affected their personal lives what is needed is some specialist help. I have never had to deal with anyone whose problems were this bad and I feel deeply for those that have it this bad and I would never attempt to try to correct something of this severity.

What a shame such a beautiful sport can bring such demons with it.:sad:


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## mbuemi (Aug 7, 2006)

Corsair said:


> What a shame such a beautiful sport can bring such demons with it.:sad:


It really is. Especially when all you want to be able to do is throw an arrow at a target and not go through tons and TONS of mental stress. 

After doing a lot of shooting of my VTEC and my brother's XI silverhawk, I've come to the conclusion that bow weight has nothing to do with it, and I think Corsair has cleared up his explanation to make somewhat the same point. The Vtec is approx 58-61 lbs, and the XI 45-50 lbs. (i think my digital easton scale is off, because that VTEC can't be at 61 + lbs...The limbs aren't maxed out. Shop musta twisted a cable the wrong way when installing my BCY's) 

I get the same urge from full weight or no weight, it's just a matter of bow vs rifle. 

Well I'm still in much the same position as when we started this, but i do thank everyone for their time. I believe a lot of it will be useful. Can't wait for the london KY ASA shoot


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Just one more thing on this matter which might stimulate some thought. have a look at this item:








This thing allows you to draw the arrow back and lock it in position. When you are ready to fire you simply aim the bow and press the trigger. The full draw weight is held back by the device, which includes the triggering system and there is no strain at all on the archer.

*Question *(particularly for those who can hold at full draw but can't release) - 

If you had one of these things and were aimiing it at a target would you still feel that you were unable to press the release (which is part of the device and not a separate hand held item)?

Further if you had this device and were aiming at a target and had your bow arm resting on an adjustable support such that there was no weight whatsoever on your bow arm, would you then feel unable to press the trigger to release?

If the answer to both is NO - then I'd like you to think about why.

If the answer is that you would still have problems with pressing the trigger, would you then, under the circumstances described above, try to explain what the problem would be for you?

THese are serious questions by the way and in my mind go to the heart of the vast majority of problems associated with target panic.


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## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Sorry, but for some reason the picture won't load. I haven't had this problem before. A local glitch perhaps.

The URL of the photo in question is:http://www.pullinarchery.com/


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

had it so bad i almost shot a guy on the target beside me, at a national 3-D shoot, after that i walked off the course went to the lancaster boothe bought a 3 finger stan and never looked back, that was about 4 years ago and i have been shootin really good ever since.


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## Hiram (Jul 31, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> Hunts -
> 
> You're describing a symptom, not the cause. That's why the blank bale and closed eye stuff only has occassional success. As soon as a real target is in sight, all heck breaks loose. The re-programming necessary has less to do with technique and more with mindset. The guy with TP has to believe he can and WILL make the shot correctly. Now, there may be several ways to do that. The first step is believing he can hold the for as long as he is physically able AND CAN let down without releasing. That's why the no fire drills work, but they are also incredibly boring - that's why a lot of people do, in fact, give up.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Amen,,,


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## Hiram (Jul 31, 2013)

TP is an anxiety problem brought on by bad habits and improper archery technique. As Viper has stated,,proper archery technique with a sequence will re-program the shooter by breaking the shot down in segments. Once proper technique takes hold, the Confidence level rises. It took me two years and I still have to stick with a disciplined shot.

The most important thing to learn is not to aim until it is time in the sequence. Many so called Instinctive shooters aim before they draw the Bow by the so called "Burning a hole" method. One can see the target and not take their eyes off it but still only aim when it is time. This is a major cause of TP because they are causing conflict by having the shot almost backwards. the mind says shoot before the Bow is drawn.

Doing too many things at once causes anxiety and a clash between the Conscious and Subconscious. Ingraining proper form and sequence allows the SC to run the shot and free the Conscious mind to just aim.

I sometimes focus on the back through expansion without it interfering with aiming because "Aiming" is easy compared to execution. I believe the best shots have almost perfect form and aiming but of the two I will take form every time. Aiming really should be the easiest part of the shot.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I believe it's a loss of confidence that "adhering to your form/shot sequence" will achieve the result you want. There are probably as many solutions as there are archers. 

No different from a tournament golfer who gets the 'yips' - loss of confidence that his putting form/sequence will sink the 6 foot putt that he's made a thousand times before.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

I gotta tell ya that I am really glad this post came up this morning. 

First off, in my personal perspective, TP is a loss of confidence comes with the fear of failure/being embarrassed/over-expectations. Period. It's a mental thing.

So...in my case, right now as we speak, I am 'getting' memories of TP because of over-shooting and sore upper-back/neck/shoulder muscles that came from holding the bow up too long to double-check my form with a bow slightly too heavy(26lbs -thought I could hold it longer because it was lighter...mistake). Went to the range last week and quit early because I was scattering arrows and was afraid to 'look bad' in front of all the people on the line because some knew I wasn't shooting my best...AND I THOUGHT THEY CARED!...that's TP. Yes I can stop for a few days and exercise. However.....this is what I am going to do.

Before I read this post I had already called my range to ask a couple of guys to help me on Saturday when it's packed. I will be shooting/holding a really light weight bow (10-12lbs) while they dare, encourage, or berate me into releasing. I told them to do whatever it takes to get me to release and gave them permission to slap me on the head if I do it before they give me the okay - and trust me...they will. This does two things;
1. It retrains the mind into ignoring the surroundings totally so nothing can influence me standing there for as long as *I* want...I'll defy them at first then realize they aren't worth the energy of wasted thought when I could be checking/focusing my back tension/form.
2. As part of the above, I won't care about others 'thinking' about me....MY bow...MY form...MY shot...MY score...Bugger off, none of your business.

Sounds harsh but my coach did this to me when I was young (he even threw chairs in the background while I was at full draw and if I flinched I caught hell) and it worked for me in a heartbeat. I've never had TP after that because I didn't give a crap what others thought and no one could throw me off....until now, at the range because I'm a backyard master too...lol

You can't teach that, but you can try it for yourself...if ya got the guts...


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

Not sure why I didn't see (or just didn't reply) back in May when the OP started this thread. But since there have been several suggestions (and inaccurate comments) made in the interim, here's what I've observed from literally thousands of TP infected archers.

First off, yes, shooting trad is harder than shooting a compound with pins. Duhhhhh...

And being a trad TP afflicted archer is harder to cure than is a pinshooter.

But since you're shooting well "in the backyard," your particular issue is surely related to being self-conscious about being seen by others as "less than qualified" in some manner or other (likely as a "good" shooter).

That's a really easy thing to get past. It simply has to do with convincing your subconscious mind that it's ok to shoot in the same manner with others present as it is in your backyard. Every subliminal message I've ever recorded for an archer/bowhunter incorporates such messaging as,_ It doesn't matter if others are present while you set up, focus, draw, and attain a true and correct sight picture with the full freedom of movement necessary to do so. Further, release of the arrow is likewise accomplished in a smooth and natural manner whether shooting by yourself or with others present._ (This particular verbiage is of course, intended for a trad shooter.)

Now to the actual question you asked: _would it be worth switching over to a compound with pins._

If you'd done everything feasible to overcome your issue and were still unsuccessful, I'd say yes. Fact is, for those few trad guys I've dealt with who did not have good success with all other efforts to alleviate themselves from TP, I have recommended exactly that - make the switch. Interestingly, after a few months of shooting with pins, going back to the recurve opens up some freedom in one's mind which can translate to lessened TP issues. Try it, you might like the results.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> Not sure why I didn't see (or just didn't reply) back in May when the OP started this thread .


Well, if you replied in May this year, you'd have been a decade behind when the thread started. Don't beat yourself up too much.


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

You have a point! Getting old is a *****.


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## fearedbydeer (Dec 1, 2010)

There's a lot of bad information about Target Panic. Target Panic is caused by shooting at too high of a gradient namely distance and size of Bullseye set up a big bull's-eye at a short distance and do a lot of shooting. Feel the bow before during and after the shot. That's all and don't forget do a lot of shooting. at a low gradient that is.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## fearedbydeer (Dec 1, 2010)

Oh yeah don't ever shoot a bow with your eyes closed it's dangerous and unnecessary don't ever drive a car with your eyes closed don't climb into your tree stand with your eyes closed it's dangerous it's not necessary someone's going to get hurt don't do it trust me shooting a bow with your eyes closed it's dangerous it's really unnecessary. It really is humanly possible to get in good mental communication with your bow with your eyes open it's also much safer

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## 10X Archer (Mar 7, 2016)

Get a good compound NTS coach. Proper NTS shot process has "cured" tons of cases of target panic, contact coach Lee and dig around on his websites for proof.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Proper NTS shot process has "cured" tons of cases of target panic


Unbiased references please....


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

10X Archer said:


> Get a good compound NTS coach. Proper NTS shot process has "cured" tons of cases of target panic, contact coach Lee and dig around on his websites for proof.


you must be joking. 


Chris


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

If this thread shows one thing it's that even in 2007 TP wasn't well understood, not to mention that that's still true today. On compound I went through 20 years of totally crippling target panic to a condition of complete remission over the last 3 or 4 years to a mid 290's level in competition settings (nothing to write home about for others but outstanding for me); there I can say that the cause is quite simple (command-releasing) as is the treatment (the surprise release enabled by techniques with release aid technology). Not easy by any means, but a pretty simple underlying cause with a reasonably straightforward treatment. 

I can't say, though, how this would be treated in classes where the technology allowing the surprise release (draw check devices) isn't available and the shooter has to somehow command the release. Namely barebow and/or traditional - those shooters of course have my undying respect for being able to do that. 

As for the OP from 10 years ago, he was apparently considering switching to compound as a desperation measure. I shoot both compound and oly and as poor as I am at oly some small bits repeat some _small_ bits from compound can help with recurve. One of those might, repeat might, be the relatively straightforward achievement of the surprise shot. Plus or minus how much time one might want to put into shooting a bow type that's not of any real interest, it might, repeat might, be of some value to experience the surprise release and see all the attending benefits like confidence in the shot, shuttling the shot sequence to the subconscious and so forth. 

In my case, when I do make my feeble attempts with my olympic rig, I think it does seem to help. But at my level, I can't say that a period of time on compound would be beneficial for an oly shooter who _does_ have talent on it and is already shooting it well.

But it is an idea - whether it's a good one or not, unfortunately I probably couldn't really say....

lee.


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

There is no such thing as target panic!
(hands covering ears, eyes closed) LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
:wink:


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## fearedbydeer (Dec 1, 2010)

solution for the inability to confront a surprise release.. feel the bow before DURING and after the shot. A lot of shooting at a low gradient to will cure Target Panic .short distance big Bulls-Eye. target Panic is caused by shooting at too high of a gradient. If every shot you ever took with a bow was at a distance of 10 yards at a paper plate size Bullseye you would never get Target panic. The super duper Bow coach from karaoke ikstan spread this data to shoot a bow with your eyes closed .don't do it it's not safe it's also not necessary. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

fearedbydeer said:


> solution for the inability to confront a surprise release..


Well, no, the solution _is_ the surprise release. Don't want to dredge up a compound-specific TP issue here, so I'll just issue this point of clarification and let it rest at that. TP has nothing to do with the target or whether there even is one or not - any psychological effects are symptoms, not causes. The root cause of TP is the anticipation of the release of the bowstring, which causes normal and natural protective reactions in the upper body. More specifically, if the archer must command the release, the _timing_ of the release is necessarily precisely known. This is what enables the anticipation of the blow the bow delivers to the arms and shoulders; all the rest of the horrors of TP follow from that one very basic condition of having to time the release. 

What the surprise release does is simply hide the precise _timing_ of the release from the archer. Commanding the instantaneous release of the bowstring is replaced with another action like a slow steady pull with the large muscles in the back, which has only a very broad, non-instantaneous timing aspect to it. It is the release aid, not the archer, that makes the instantaneous "decision" to perform the release. The archer only needs to aim and pull (or use whatever other technique that works for them). Since the timing of the release isn't known with precision, the natural instincts of the body can't anticipate it and react to it. 

In my faltering attempts with the oly recurve, the clicker performs a similar function - it relieves me of having to time the release. When the clicker goes click, a subconscious (practiced) relaxation of the fingers is prompted. The archer doesn't have to time this as the clicker does it for you.

I only speak "authoritatively" on the compound case here, though - my nearly 30 year personal struggle with absolutely debilitating crippling TP and eventual remission is what I cite as my experience to back it up. However, I suspect that having to time the release is behind TP issues on other bow types too. Including maybe not learning to use the clicker as a method of an external timing of the shot. At least that's the function it performs for me. 

Anyway, any further on this topic and we'll be intruding on the ground already covered by 80 billion other TP threads on AT, so I'll leave this here.

lee.


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## fearedbydeer (Dec 1, 2010)

Target panic IS well understood. It's pretty simple. it's source would be shooting at too high of a gradient as in distance and size of Bullseye. if every shot you ever took was at a paper plate size Bullseye at a distance of let's say 10 yds you would never get Target panic. ALOT of proper shooting at a low gradient will cure Target Panic. proper as in feel the bow before DURING and after the shot.thats all it takes.its simple. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

fearedbydeer said:


> Target panic IS well understood. It's pretty simple. it's source would be shooting at too high of a gradient as in distance and size of Bullseye. if every shot you ever took was at a paper plate size Bullseye at a distance of let's say 10 yds you would never get Target panic. ALOT of proper shooting at a low gradient will cure Target Panic. proper as in feel the bow before DURING and after the shot.thats all it takes.its simple.


The failure rate - pretty close to 100% - of this analysis and treatment is what indicates its basic misunderstanding of the problem of TP. Its close relative - blank baling - also fails at a rate very close to 100% for the same reasons. Now, if archery didn't involve aiming and actually trying to hit something at a "high gradient", sure, that failure rate figure for blank baling/blaming the target could probably be forced down to around, maybe say, 50%. It is possible to condition the body to somewhat ignore the instinctive "brace" reaction to a blow whose timing it knows precisely at least some of the time - maybe every other or every 3rd shot you might be able to confine to a good hard flinch. But given that we _do_ have to aim and hit things in our environment precisely, this isn't really available, nor is it the strategy you want to pursue regardless. 

To sum it up, blaming the target, a bad attitude, a predisposition towards fear or other psychological condition, even taking a few shots of Vodka before the round and so on, all are symptomatic analyses and treatments. As I said earlier, the root of TP is a fundamental consequence of command-shooting. QED, more or less. 

Finally, it should be mentioned that the inverse isn't necessarily true. Meaning, it's not the case that everyone who command-shoots must come down with TP. In fact, there are shooters who can command-shoot and do so at an elite level. There are such things as shooters who are able to suppress/ignore the body's natural instinct to brace itself, sufficient to not be significantly bothered with anticipation issues. My favorite example is Sarah Sonnichson (sp?) who is the current #1 female compounder in the world. Mike Schlosser is a "puncher" as well, at least a fair bit of the time. 

But for the rest of us mere mortals, we need a more fundamental treatment. And fortunately, the solution isn't complicated. Not easy, but not too hard to understand either.

Ok, now I promise to leave it .

lee.


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## fearedbydeer (Dec 1, 2010)

not sure what you said. Sounds psychiatric to me. Psychiatry is crazy. it leads to no cures then electrocute people's heads put kids on drugs .it's crazy. If Psychiatry was used in any way to cure Target panic you will end up Down a Dead End Road for sure it's Babble it's a waste of time.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

fearedbydeer said:


> not sure what you said.


My point exactly (about TP being a mystery for many) .

Lee.


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

Boy, this 10 year old thread has gotten more action than many newer ones.

I do buy off on a few things lees said - 1) At some point, you've got to be able to hit longer targets with smaller spots, or you will simply drift away from the sport because it's not any fun otherwise, 2) blank baling really does have a very low rate of success, 3) command shooting is really hard to repeat, and few can do it well consistently, and 4) taking time off or switching shooting styles _can_ help.... sometimes.... maybe.

Other than that, not so much. :zip:

Meanwhile, if you've got your fingers on the string, it's a lot harder than with a release, and if you're then trying to shoot instinctively, multiply that hardness by 10.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> Boy, this 10 year old thread has gotten more action than many newer ones.
> 
> I do buy off on a few things lees said - 1) At some point, you've got to be able to hit longer targets with smaller spots, or you will simply drift away from the sport because it's not any fun otherwise, 2) blank baling really does have a very low rate of success, 3) command shooting is really hard to repeat, and few can do it well consistently, and 4) taking time off or switching shooting styles _can_ help.... sometimes.... maybe.
> 
> ...


AJ, we haven't seen things on the TP subject the same in the past and will probably still disagree on some main points, but in this case we're in just about perfect agreement. I'd bet that even if we diverge on how we might get there, we definitely will agree at the end of the day on where we want to end up .

lee.


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## fearedbydeer (Dec 1, 2010)

lees said:


> My point exactly (about TP being a mystery for many) .
> 
> Lee.


Theres no mystery. the source of Target Panic is simple the solution is also simple if you have Target Panic please don't get all tangled up in mystery and and dead-end Roads and overthinking and a miasma of psychobabble .the next you know you're next in line to get your head electrocuted by a psychiatrist. that's where mystery leads.

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## fader (May 17, 2010)

lees said:


> If this thread shows one thing it's that even in 2007 TP wasn't well understood, not to mention that that's still true today. On compound I went through 20 years of totally crippling target panic to a condition of complete remission over the last 3 or 4 years to a mid 290's level in competition settings (nothing to write home about for others but outstanding for me); there I can say that the cause is quite simple (command-releasing) as is the treatment (the surprise release enabled by techniques with release aid technology). Not easy by any means, but a pretty simple underlying cause with a reasonably straightforward treatment.


A hinge release and a clicker are the TP sufferers best friend.


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

fader said:


> A hinge release and a clicker are the TP sufferers best friend.


Not so much. I say this from personal experience (many years ago), and hearing the stories of literally thousands of other TP afflicted archers who likewise have tried virtually all "cures," including those.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

I'm sorry that didn't work for you. It worked for me and some others that I've read about on the forums. And I wouldn't call them "cures". They simply suppress the problem. If I went back to a trigger release on my compound I'm sure I'd be paralyzed with TP within 6 arrows. Lee describes my brand of TP pretty well in his posts. It's the execution of a command shot (rather than a surprise shot) that triggers it.


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## 10X Archer (Mar 7, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> you must be joking.
> 
> 
> Chris


No, I'm not. While I am biased because I happen to shoot NTS, it has solved many peoples target panic. In Coach Lee's seminars he shows many cases of him doing just that. 

I also don't know why so many people on AT are so hostile towards the KSL method. Just because you don't like it or use it doesn't mean its not a good method. It seems like you guys have some bias aswell.


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## sophia482 (Dec 6, 2017)

Personally, I never had target panic with my recurve but I recently switched to compound and the target panic suddenly appeared. Target panic differs for each individual so I would suggest just blank baling and reastabishing your shot cycle so it becomes a second nature to you.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

10X Archer said:


> Get a good compound NTS coach. Proper NTS shot process has "cured" tons of cases of target panic, contact coach Lee and dig around on his websites for proof.


Wow, I don't know whether to laugh at this or cry.


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## 10X Archer (Mar 7, 2016)

fango0000 said:


> Wow, I don't know whether to laugh at this or cry.


I know the KSL method isn't very popular here, but the evidence doesn't care. There is a reason why nobody in the RA program has any noticeable target panic, for example. Kisik is a modest guy, but he has many instances of him fixing archers target panic on film. All you lvl 4+ coaches should know what I'm referring to.

Don't laugh or cry, try it yourself.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

10X Archer said:


> No, I'm not. While I am biased because I happen to shoot NTS, it has solved many peoples target panic. In Coach Lee's seminars he shows many cases of him doing just that.
> 
> I also don't know why so many people on AT are so hostile towards the KSL method. Just because you don't like it or use it doesn't mean its not a good method. It seems like you guys have some bias aswell.


I am not hostile to NTS. 

Target panic is a mental control problem that leads to body reflexes. The NTS form or Korean form isnt going to cure it. There isnt a form thats the cure. I would have made the same post had you said get a good Korean linear coach or whatever coach. 

I had it really bad, so i can speak with experience here. Didnt matter if i shot NTS, Korean, Compound, recurve, etc. Changing or fixing those forms didnt fix my target panic and clicker panic. Controling the mind and mental shot while retraining the body to follow the mental commands is what cures target panic. it took me about two years to cure my target panic and clicker panic. 

Shooting NTS proper isnt going to cure target panic. This is more of the Coach Lee koolaid. Which i might add, he had target panic and thats why he switched to coaching. Interesting, he didnt just use NTS to cure his own target panic. And the RA pool is a super small pool of archers to claim that what he teaches works to cure target panic. How many total? 15? 20 archers? out of how many thousands? To claim that RAs dont get it so it must work? How many out of a thousand archers get target panic? 

And i have seen on film many preachers curing all types of ailments, from blindness to cancer to people who cant walk and boom they suddenly can. Doesnt mean i believe those either. 

I am glad you love NTS and defend it. Rightfully so. I am a champion for archers shooting the form THEY want to shoot. I have a problem with NTS being forced on everyone who gets to the RA program. I might add i would not like the Korean form to be forced either. I think there are many forms that should be allowed. While i do not teach NTS. I do have a kid in my JOAD that shoots NTS under Gary Yamaguchi. I havent changed her form. 

I hope you are very competitive on the archery field with NTS and the form takes you far to your goals. Honestly. 

But dont complain when your system does not have the track record of other national systems and you do not do as well. The writing for NTS has been on the wall for almost a decade now. 


Chris


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

10X Archer said:


> I know the KSL method isn't very popular here, but the evidence doesn't care. There is a reason why nobody in the RA program has any noticeable target panic, for example. Kisik is a modest guy, but he has many instances of him fixing archers target panic on film. All you lvl 4+ coaches should know what I'm referring to.
> 
> Don't laugh or cry, try it yourself.


Allow me to clarify:

I am not by any means bashing on NTS or saying that NTS does not work. That is not it at all. I shoot a hybrid form and use some pieces of NTS in my own form along with some of the vocabulary when I coach my students. I think the whole NTS vs. the rest of the world debate has been done on countless other threads. I believe in shooting the form that best fit you and having chatted and worked one of the Korean national head coaches, he said the same thing. There is no one "form" in Korea like there is in the US with NTS. Some of their archers shoot slightly more open and angular, some straight. 

For the RA program, I beg to differ. I've had personal friends enter the RA program and fight with target panic there. The reason nobody has noticeable target panic is because they are supposed to be professional archers. They train 8 hours a day so of course they won't have that. Right now the new head womens head coach Songi Woo has been transitioning some of the newer RA female shooters to something more hybrid and linear. They don't have any either. I guess the point I'm trying to say is that it isn't because of the KSL method that nobody at the RA program has target panic. 

As for Kisik, he's a great businessman and knows how to self-promote himself. That is perfectly fine too, everyone has got to make a living. He also charges $300/hr for lessons and makes a killing doing this stuff when other equally capable coaches can do it as well for less. I dont question Coach lee's skills or teachings, I think there are more out there.

As far as the level 4+ people in the know, I know the people you're referring to as well. I would upgrade my level 3 to a 4 if it didn't cost $1000+ and a week to do it. USA has loosened the requirements to become a level 4 nowadays too so acquiring one means even less to me. 

In conclusion, I think the KSL method is one of many methods out there. It may work for some and not for others. As far as TP is concerned, its more of a mental issue and fixing that will solve your TP.


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## 10X Archer (Mar 7, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> I am not hostile to NTS.
> 
> Target panic is a mental control problem that leads to body reflexes. The NTS form or Korean form isnt going to cure it. There isnt a form thats the cure. I would have made the same post had you said get a good Korean linear coach or whatever coach.
> 
> ...


My bad, I didn't mean that NTS hardware fixes target panic, I meant NTS software (mental side). I agree that changing ones physical shot cycle won't affect TP. 

Good for you! That is very impressive that you cured your TP on your own. 

That's true. Unfortunately by the time he discovered it he was past his prime age and liked coaching more anyway.

No, the RA example and the videos aren't super strong evidence. Believe, me I would love a peer reviewed study, but we don't have one. Yes, the tens to hundreds of archers with polished NTS software don't get it while the thousands without do.

Likewise, I champion you for shooting the way you want to. I am certainly not saying NTS is the only way, I just find myself, fellow archery, and students are more happy and satisfied with their archery if they go down the NTS path.

That's great, Gary is a wonderful guy and an amazing coach.

Same to you Chris, and what I gather about your JOAD program tells me that you have already achieved some high goals.

As for the U.S track record, I disagree. Our top athletes have been winning way more medals then ever before thanks to Coach Lee. 

Anyway, enough ranting for now, happy shooting all


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

10X Archer said:


> As for the U.S track record, I disagree. Our top athletes have been winning way more medals then ever before thanks to Coach Lee.
> 
> Anyway, enough ranting for now, happy shooting all


Someone has given you incorrect information. Perhaps you are new to the sport and aren't familiar the powerhouse we used to be.

Since 2004, we have two team silver and one bronze. Brady has won World cup final four times, but he is not from Coach Lee or NTS. He was under Mel Nichols and already a Junior World champ before Kisik Lee. Katuna who has gone the deepest on the women's side at any Olympics also is not NTS. She tried it for a year, it didnt work and then she changed back. She currently does not shoot NTS, though i think there is still a video on Youtube of her shooting NTS when she tried it. So you cant count Brady and Katuna. Nor Jennifer Nichols. 

Since NTS, Brady, Jake and Joe won the team world champs in 2013 and we have the two Olympic team silvers and an individual bronze. A large part of all three were Brady Ellison. Awesome accomplishments, but not numerous. 

Coach Lee has had his program since 2004. Aside from Brady, who has won?

Before 2004, We have numerous Olympic golds, Olympic silver, Numerous world champs etc. The womens team since Coach Lee has been abysmal aside from one World cup team podium win. Most Olympic years, we have not even been able to field a full team. 

What are the winning medals you think we have won? 

There is no way to sugar coat the failure of NTS on the world stage. It is not effective as a form under tournament pressure, and has not been shown to out perform the linear system. You can watch pretty much any World cup or Olympics to see it plain as day. Anyone who believes that Lee's program and NTS has made the USA win more medals is not looking at the facts. 

Eventually even the most ardent Coach Lee NTS program supporter will have to bow to the reality of the system's failure. And if Songi Woo has any success with the Women's team. it will make it even more apparent. NTS is like Taekwondo. Its an art form but not effective in a real time brawl. It looks good on paper, but is not going to win against all comers. 

MMA has proven that Kickboxing, boxing and Brazilian JuJitsu grappling are the real world effective systems. No one studies to be a black belt in Taekwondo to fight MMA. NTS is the taekwondo of archery. Its a nice art form. But in a tournament brawl in the real world on the international level, its not effective. 

Do i tell people not to do Taekwondo? course not. someone wants to work for years to get a black belt. Awesome. 

Do i tell people not to do NTS. Course not. Someone wants to learn that, great. enjoy. 

Someone loves shooting NTS. great! Super!. Any form that gets people shooting archery is awesome. But there is a difference between effective and not effective. 
And i know any that follow NTS, are not going to be a obstacle for the people using the linear system. And thats not bias. Its proven every year with cold hard scores and wins. 

But is it awesome you enjoy NTS and love the benefits of it. I hope you continue to shoot and enjoy the sport. I just hope you can keep an eye on what makes you competitive and what is not. 

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> In Coach Lee's seminars he shows many cases of him doing just that.


Really? Exactly how does he "show" many cases of him doing just that?

Perhaps he could have cured his own TP that took him out of competitive archery if he really had a cure.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Temporary TP relief is normal/frequent when an archer gets put into a learning vs. mastering mode. Enter the big shot coaches seminar....


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