# will shimming a sight work



## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Hard to find a place to start. Correcting poor form with a temporary fix will never work. 
Get your sight level, your bow balanced, 2nd axis perfect, and shoot as many arrows as it takes to change your sight picture. 
In the 80s in Bow Hunter class we were not allowed a bubble and I had a cant. It took awhile to get that straight when I went FS, but not that hard. 
Finishing in the money " may" be a crutch. If you were saying you shot 300 on the Vegas face, then you would have a convincing argument. 
You can't ever shoot side hills without a bubble,,,,, period.


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## yeroc (Jan 11, 2007)

why dont you just get use to the weight and shoot it where it is level? you will benefit most from letting that back bar do its purpose,offset that weight and balance things out.to answer your question I DONT THINK you could properly shim the sight enough to make it level without putting it in a bad bind.if you look at tim gillinghams hamskea 3rd axis level videos he shows how to adjust for cant after your bow is leveld.might look those up on youtube.depends on your sight if you can do that tbough.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

1tiger said:


> ...the cant is more than a full bubble so has anyone had success shimming a sight with that much cant and just adjusting the level to be correct to that natural cant.
> any help would be appreciated....


To be clear, you're looking to shim because there isn't enough 1st axis adjustment on the sight you're using to account for your natural cant... correct?


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Before I started using a side bar, I had the same problem and would adjust the sight for my natural cant. First set all three axis on the sight. Then adjust the first axis (the extension bar to the sight) to compensate for your cant. The sight will be level for all distances from 3 yds to 100 yds.

For shooting pins in the old days prior to the level being legal for BHFS, I had to line the pins to get level. I also had to pre-load my hand into the hill. Pin sights back then did not have even the first axis leveling ability.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I hate to assume anything. Proper form, proper grip? Sight frame doesn't have adjustment or enough adjustment? < This is pain with my Copper John ANTS 2. I can't believe this sight frame was so hyped and small wonder they quit making it. Otherwise a very nice sight frame.

I have shimmed fixed sights many times.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

NFAA pro Gene Lueck used a heavily shimmed site to shoot very successfully with a large amount of cant on tough ranges. Note that 2nd and 3rd axis still have to be correctly set to avoid side hill and up&down hill problems. Pic showing shimming in post #7 of attached link.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=509047


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Picture has been used in I/A before and always doubt with the scope, the lines and angle of the vertical block of the sight frame.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

have you put your bow in a vertical bow vice and leveled bow and bow string ? then see if site level matches if all match in leveling its you .those all need to be level tuned first.you holding the bow will not work,otherwise then its a problem or problems like sonny says above? just my 2 cents ? good luck


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

1tiger said:


> the problem is my bubble always sits all the way to the left.the only way I can get my sight bubble level is to have a bunch of weight 18 oz on my 15 inch side bar,6 oz on 33 inch front bar.the side bar has to be way out to the left side with all that weight just to get the bubble to be level.it is a struggle to hold like that,and I use to just take my level off the sight and just shoot with my natural cant and miss left or right on side hill shots.the cant is more than a full bubble so has anyone had success shimming a sight with that much cant and just adjusting the level to be correct to that natural cant.
> any help would be appreciated.
> just for fyi I have shot in ASA pro am shoots and still placed in the money shooting with no level,so just trying to get to that next level with my bad natural cant.i have this cant with every bow I shoot target bows and hunting bows. thanks


Shimming your sight works fine. I level mine in a jig for both 2nd and 3rd axis. It's not as perfect as doing it at full draw and taking the bow into account but it is close enough that you will never miss do to the level.
I found out I had a natural can't the same as others mentioned (old BHFS class) when I switched to freestyle trying to fight the level was so uncomfortable I just quit fighting and decided to shoot while being comfortable. You can shoot to any level your ability will allow with your sight canted.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Field 14 has some great info on this.


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

I have a cbe vertex sight and already have it adjusted as far to the left as it can go and it still not near enough. it still appears to be full bubble to the left.i just cannot fight putting 18 oz on the side bar that far swung out left.can I shoot this way yes but it so uncomfortable fighting that much side weight that it effects my focus to much. I guess I will start with a 1/8 inch washer and see what that does,unless someone has a better idea. thanks.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

I'd suggest an adapter plate between the sight extension and the sight frame rather than putting washers between the riser and the dovetail mounting bracket (if that's what you had in mind?)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Some sight frames have the capability of tilt with a regular adapter plate (Sure Loc Challenger and Supreme), others don't and Copper John ANTS 2 just plain sucks.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Set your bow up with the weight and mounting position that you like, shoot for a while (couple 300 rounds) paying no mind to the level, even put tape over it. While aiming have someone measure the amount of can't you hold your bow at, have it measured a couple times for consistency.
Then have a wedge cut to that angle, I have used both aluminum and plexiglass. Your sight can be leveled on a jig for 2nd and third axis.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

If you are struggling to set your bow vertical it is probably because you have some kind of funky grip and front arm and front shoulder setup, you should be able to easily come to full draw and hold the bow anywhere you want to and then by putting stabs on the bow you should be able to come to full draw and be perfect without even trying. Why? Because the setup takes care of you properly. More than likely it is a overly deep grip that is getting well into the love line area and that puts your whole grip at a funky angle, this puts the entire front end under a rotational tension that forces you crooked and you have to fight to get vertical.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am sitting here trying to think what sight out there would need shimming to take care of getting a sight vertical or a slight natural cant, shimming usually is used when a sight doesn't have 3rd axis and a guy wants to shim to do that.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

I would absolutely agree if every person was the same. Some people are double jointed, so a double jointed person probably can't figure out why you can't bend your joints as far as he can just like you don't understand why some people can't hold a bow straight feeling uncomfortable.
Just because something is the norm, doesn't make it the only way to do something.
Personally I feel that anything that makes you more comfortable and relaxed while shooting is a good thing.

Why is it that so many people want to "fix" everyone by forcing them into something that is not natural for that person? Why not look at things from other viewpoints and figure out what's best for each archer?

I'm used to being the odd man out, years ago when people asked how I shot my Stan and I told them I was all wrong, I didn't use back tension, how I did it wouldn't work according to them, it didn't matter that I beat them on a regular basis, now days Levi and Chance tell people they shoot the same way I always have and it's ok cause its levi and chance.

Figure out what works for you, not everyone uses the same kind of release, same scope power, aiming dot, length and weight of stabilizers, holding weight, ect. If your bow wants to sit at a cant, why fight it? Find out how to make it work and go enjoy shooting.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Padgett, to answer your question, just about any hunting sight that doesn't allow individual windage adjustment on the pins


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

thawk said:


> I would absolutely agree if every person was the same. Some people are double jointed, so a double jointed person probably can't figure out why you can't bend your joints as far as he can just like you don't understand why some people can't hold a bow straight feeling uncomfortable.
> Just because something is the norm, doesn't make it the only way to do something.
> Personally I feel that anything that makes you more comfortable and relaxed while shooting is a good thing.
> 
> ...


Well, we don't know all that could be the issue and the Poster is where ever he is and we are where we are. If "one-on-one" then what you have might apply..........


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I would set the sight and bubble vertical with the string. This makes life simple.

I have started setting my bow up way left heavy. This allows me to twist my hand to the right which moves my elbow to the left and out of the way of the string. It appears that I am holding better by having to slightly twist my bow to the right. 

If your cant is naturally to the right and you are having to add weight to the left side bar to get the bow level, then I would add too much weight so that you will have to twist the bow to the right to get it level. This may be what your bow arm is wanting to feel. Add another 5 ounces to the back or swing the bar out further to the left.


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

because of the way the cbe vetrex is made it wont allow a adjustable block on the first axis adjustment.i can adjust my spot hogg hunter 7 pin sights for this as it allows the first axist to move as far as you want to move it on my hunting bow.just so i am clear with everyone,i had already set all three axis adjustments to level in a bow vise prior having shot the bow and seeing where the level sits naturally in my hand while shooting.i have had this problem with my hunting bows for 35+ years now.since i have only recently got serious again about shooting open class[ 7 year old twins to raise] and would like to shoot right there with padgett if i get the chance to shoot next to him,i now need to resolve this issue so i can actually use a level instead of just living with the left and right side hill shots misses.
and thanks for the advise thawk.i think i am going to try an 1/8 inch washer toningh and just see what happens.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

If you like the feel send me your address and I will send you a shim I had done by a machine shop.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

jim p said:


> I would set the sight and bubble vertical with the string. This makes life simple.
> 
> I have started setting my bow up way left heavy. This allows me to twist my hand to the right which moves my elbow to the left and out of the way of the string. It appears that I am holding better by having to slightly twist my bow to the right.
> 
> If your cant is naturally to the right and you are having to add weight to the left side bar to get the bow level, then I would add too much weight so that you will have to twist the bow to the right to get it level. This may be what your bow arm is wanting to feel. Add another 5 ounces to the back or swing the bar out further to the left.


how is this making "life simple"?
First what difference does it make if the sight is level with the string? If you feel it has to be level with something then why not make it level with the bow?
But your simple way is to 
Add more weight then he might like to shoot
Add so much weight to the left that he has to force the bow back to level
And shoot with his bow arm in what would be a unnatural position for him

This is a simple life for archery?


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

A few months back there was a thread about canting a bow and how the sights had to be adjusted. It was as complicated as chinese arithmetic unless you kept the peep sight directly above the arrow. When you cant the bow the peep site moves to the side of the arrow and now all kinds of angles get involved in trying to get the sight to indicate exactly where the arrow is going to hit. If you can live with plus or minus 1" out to 50 yards, then things might be ok depending on how much cant is used.

I think it would be worth trying to add more weight to the side rod, which will cause it to cant the bow to the left very badly. With this extreme cant to the left you can now put pressure to the right on the grip and maybe this will satisfy your desire to cant the bow to the right. This test will only take a few minutes and if it does not work for you then you just keep experimenting with shimming the sight to see if that will work for you.

I will take a look and see if I can find the thread about sighting and canting the bow. If I can find it I will give you the link.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Found it. 19 pages worth.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2782305&highlight=cant


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Yes I saw that thread when it was active, and it's full of BS speculation. If someone is comfortable while shooting they will be more accurate then if they are forcing themselves to shoot "the right way" 
I would never tell someone to cant their bow if they can hold it straight with little or no effort, and I have no idea why my natural cant is as much as it is, but I have tried a level sight and its uncomfortable and if a shot goes long I tend to loose the bubble. When mounted straight I spent to much time looking at the level rather then aiming.
I will also tell you that you will not miss by an inch at 50 yards do to a canted bow, from 20-100 yards when my shots break in the middle they go in the middle, and I would bet anything I would miss more shots trying to use more weight then I'm comfortable shooting or trying to force my bow straight


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

you sound just like me as i have no idea why my natural cant is so severe.i did break both the arm and elbow when i was younger,who knows.what amount of cant did you have to shim your sight for.i think i will use some plastic washers at first just to determine how much shim amount i need then go from there.really appreciate your input here as all of the grip/form/ it must be me stuff just was not helping. thanks mike


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

I want to say 4* 
the plexiglass ones I cut on a tablesaw and they have been in use sense 1996. My aluminum ones seem to be slightly more, I just put a smart level on my pin rack at the time cause back then bhfs didn't allow a level, had I used a sight that didn't have individual windage adjustment I never would have been competitive. Also the other reason I started using a shim was back in thoese days we didn't use side bars.

I also broke my arm a couple times as a kid so who knows


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

tonight I used 3 washers all 1/16 of an inch. 1 hard plastic one in the middle of two hard rubbers one on the bottom of the sight.i used the rubber ones as not to mark up my sight or riser. I would guess that the rubber ones compressed slightly so probably ended up with with about a total of 1/8 to 5/32 of an inch.it does bind a bit on the mounting block but it tight and now my bubble sit level. I now have my regular 6oz on my 33 inch front and 12oz on the 15 inch side bar.i will now have to see if I can shoot on left to right from 20-100 yards. I would like to see what your shims look like may buy some from you I will pm you my email.thanks again


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

There is a user oldpro that used a canted sight. He has not posted in about a year. He could probably help with a wedge to get the sight tilted like you want.

Some of his old post showed his bow with the canted sight. It looked like the sight was 10 degrees off vertical with the bow riser.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Sure loc icon had up to 15 degrees adjustment.








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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Here is a thread showing oldpro's sight alignment.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=424454&highlight=cant

Looking at the sight with 15 degrees of cant, imagine where the peep sight will be located. The peep is no longer above the arrow. If you sight in at infinity then you will only be off by the distance between the arrow and the peep. But if you cant and sight in at 5 yards then you may be off by several inches at 50 yards.

You can definitely shoot with a cant and since you have had broken bones this may be the best way to set up your bow.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

1tiger the picture above is misleading, the peep above the arrow is not as high as the picture it's will be about 3.5" as you are aiming at full draw. Also you are sighted in with the peep slightly off center to the arrow, it will always be slightly off center to the arrow, weather your shooting 2 or 100 yards that measurement will remain the same, it no different then having a bow tune inside or outside the string.
I find it funny that the people that have never shot with a cant are the ones that show up with pictures and long explanations on why a cant won't work, and dismiss people that competed at the highest level of professional archery using a shim and canted bow. I was never a great shot or a top pro but I can tell you when I shot a 1393 fita I didn't have to move my windage from 90 to 30 meters.

Here is the way I look at it, even if the cant does make you hit 1/4" off at 50 yards and 3/4 at 100 yards if it allows you to shoot better shots all day long your scores will always be overall higher.

Look at Reo Wilde, most would look at his form and say his draw length is to long, but it's kinda hard to argue with his results, his indoor and fita wins look like a novel. But, how many nfaa or naa field wins does he have? How many Redding wins? My guess is that his form makes him rock steady for flat shooting but not as good as someone like Jessie when hills and off camber shots are made. But if he was to shorten his draw length and stop leaning back it is most likely that not only would his level ground archery suffer but so would his fields scores.


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

i shoot around 860 or so average on 900 40/50/60 meter rounds dont really know what a 1393 fita score would compare,of course the 900 rounds are all shot on level ground so the cant was not really an issue there.i do know for sure that either removing my level or not being able to use it on unlevel 3d courses cost me from 1st place finishes on to many occasions not to fix at this point.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

It's hard to compare 900 round scores and 90-70-50-30 fita my 93 was the best I ever shot and would say it would be like shooting 895+ this year I shot a 888 at our state 900 and that was no where near shooting a 1393.

One thing I can't tell you for sure but have always felt is the "bubbling" in the wind might not be as accurate when you shoot with a cant. If you bubble to the right you are already leaning the bow to the right.and bubbling left you are getting back to straight before you lean the bow to the left.
I always aim off anyways but have always wondered how a can't effects "bubbling"


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I would like to see your sight after you get it shimmed to your liking. 

I think that you will not have any problems with shimming your sight and I think you are going to shoot your best with the shimmed sight.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

1tiger said:


> the problem is my bubble always sits all the way to the left.the only way I can get my sight bubble level is to have a bunch of weight 18 oz on my 15 inch side bar,6 oz on 33 inch front bar.the side bar has to be way out to the left side with all that weight just to get the bubble to be level.it is a struggle to hold like that,and I use to just take my level off the sight and just shoot with my natural cant and miss left or right on side hill shots.the cant is more than a full bubble so has anyone had success shimming a sight with that much cant and just adjusting the level to be correct to that natural cant.
> any help would be appreciated.
> just for fyi I have shot in ASA pro am shoots and still placed in the money shooting with no level,so just trying to get to that next level with my bad natural cant.i have this cant with every bow I shoot target bows and hunting bows. thanks


I liked to see a picture of you at full draw shooting, not just taking a picture of you at full draw as people seem to adjust. Bow balanced well I can't see where a struggle would come. My bow hand has a artificial wrist/thumb joint, thumb sets back double compared to my right thumb. Chance B with bunches of weight on a single back bar - Elite and PSE. Backwards elbow, no problem with this Utah Open winner.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I just thought that I would tell you the weights that I am using. 7 ounces on 33" front bar and 23 ounces on a 15" back bar. I like this feel but maybe I need to shim my sight. 

Some people shoot even heavier weights.



1tiger said:


> the problem is my bubble always sits all the way to the left.the only way I can get my sight bubble level is to have a bunch of weight 18 oz on my 15 inch side bar,6 oz on 33 inch front bar.the side bar has to be way out to the left side with all that weight just to get the bubble to be level.it is a struggle to hold like that,and I use to just take my level off the sight and just shoot with my natural cant and miss left or right on side hill shots.the cant is more than a full bubble so has anyone had success shimming a sight with that much cant and just adjusting the level to be correct to that natural cant.
> any help would be appreciated.
> just for fyi I have shot in ASA pro am shoots and still placed in the money shooting with no level,so just trying to get to that next level with my bad natural cant.i have this cant with every bow I shoot target bows and hunting bows. thanks


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Looking at sonny's picture I'm thinking the last one is forest carter in 04 or 05 at the Utah open, it looks like the shootoff for first and the guy to his left is my buddy Josh Hughes, should also have Logan in the pic


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes, Forest Carter. Can't remember where I got the picture. field14 caught this the last time I posted the picture.

Lynn Sieses, his daughter's bow arm makes Forest's arm look natural. I shudder every time I see her shoot.


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## thawk (Mar 11, 2003)

Paige Pearce used to have her elbow hyper extended too, caused her to shoot in a brace for a while


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

jim p said:


> I just thought that I would tell you the weights that I am using. 7 ounces on 33" front bar and 23 ounces on a 15" back bar. I like this feel but maybe I need to shim my sight.
> 
> Some people shoot even heavier weights.


i think i could add weight to my back bar as long as i keep it more straight back,but if i swing it to the left very far it makes it hard to even pick up the bow without feeling like it want to fall over to the left.
and that also makes it even harder for me to keep a normal grips as it torquing my hand even as i just try to pick it up.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The more weight you add to the back bar the closer to straight back it will need to be positioned. But if you are fighting the bubble, you will need to swing it out to the side maybe more than you would like. It turns into a balancing act. The more you swing it to the side the less weight you need on the front.

It takes me a long time to decide what I like and the more weight that you use the stronger you will get and then you may want more weight. So not only is it a balancing act it can be a moving target.


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