# New Twin Cams



## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Just to feed the frenzy yet more with stories of new products, I am currently testing some very interesting new cams due out late this year or early next year, available from Europe.

The cam is a twin cam designed to be shot as a shoot through cable system, and the design of the cam has meant that I am able to to shoot arrows that are 5 or even 6 spines lighter than the normally recommended spine!

I am also achieving remarkable arrow speeds equivalent to an IBO rating of 315fps and more.

More Information later, but for now some pictures:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Those look pretty good...

Is the string attached to that "notch" in the lobe?? and if not what this the notch for??

What kind of brace height and AtoA and draw length are you using to get that 315??


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## mloncar (Mar 3, 2003)

what bow is that?


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## Defiant (Sep 24, 2003)

My Guess is. 
This is yet another attempt to make the original pretty useless bow hardly ever seen at top shoots something different, in a vain attempt to make some money from a total failure. So its just a revamped cam idea on a very ordinary bow from a firm headed by a guy who is a legend in his own mind. So don't get worked up or lose any sleep over this one. The hype is far greater than the product.


Defiant


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## Jim Toth (Oct 3, 2002)

Sorry, but it looks very similar to the fury-X system.


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## GRIV (May 20, 2002)

Looks just like a cam I saw Don Kudlacheck shooting at the washington state championships. I thought that was his cam, that he was making.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> I am able to to shoot arrows that are 5 or even 6 spines lighter than the normally recommended spine!



Hope you have really excellent health insurance, Timmy...


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Thanks to you guys that have answered with constructive comments, no thanks to those that lower themselves to the level of the mob. I posted here as this is what this open forum should enable us to do, to keep archers informed of new products, if people are attacked for doing so people will stop telling us about new products! Simple as that.

George: I will keep your comments in mind 

CentreX: The string does attach to the notch in the lobe. When I first saw it I was concerned it would be too sharp for the strands, but extensive testing has not shown any problems.

You have to remember that the IBO rating is based upon some fixed values, such as drawlength, poundage, arrow weight etc, etc.(difficult to always relate the IBO rating of bows to the real world, but a standard is standard after all). I have the bow set to a 50lb peak, ATA of 36.5", Brace height of around 7"(bit of a lie really, depends where you measure to for Brace height!). I am shooting a 26.5" shaft with a 1000 spine arrow(i.e the same spine as my fiance!!!). With all that in mind a 270fps through the speed gun is pretty hot. 

My rough measurements have given just less than 60% let off, but the real nice part is the feel of the draw and back wall, and a really smooth transfer of power during the release, this alone accounts for the spine of arrow I am using. I did start my testing with my normal 500 spine arrow which came out massively too stiff. I worked back to the 1000 spine at which point I got bullet hole paper tear for EVERY arrow I shot at whatever distance I shot it. (and I was too scared to go any further down the spine chart despite the extremely quiet bow noise GT )

GRIV: Well spotted 

Jim Toth: I was aware of that, but I would say there are many pieces of equipment on the market that "look" the same, but "work" and "perform" completely differently! 

Mloncar: Bow is an Alternative Exact, A not universally known, but World Championships and British Championship medal winning bow all the same  

Regards

Tim


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

> Jim Toth: I was aware of that, but I would say there are many pieces of equipment on the market that "look" the same, but "work" and "perform" completely differently!


 Exactly, 
Check your PM's.


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## mloncar (Mar 3, 2003)

Exactly said:


> *
> Mloncar: Bow is an Alternative Exact, A not universally known, but World Championships and British Championship medal winning bow all the same
> 
> Regards
> ...



thanks! i like the riser (shot trought design) by Exact! i was surfing on their site and i found out a very interesting bow system (on the picture) - exact riser and hoyt limbs


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## conquest2 (Feb 20, 2003)

*NOT Exact*

This guy is Johan van Dongen from the Netherlands, And here he is shooting his unique bow build by himself, with - yes - hoyt limbs


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

JDES900X said:


> *Exactly,
> Check your PM's.  *


Just have... Thanks

conquest2: Thanks... Johan is a truely nice guy, I am lucky to know this guy personally and have had the pleasure of his company on the shooting line and in my group at field tournaments. Sadly his own riser broke prior to the World Champs in New York this year and had to buy a Hoyt from his local dealer, despite this he had a strong showing in his first international competition.

He is now in the process of designing and building a replacement for the broken riser. I wish him every success.

mloncar: Thanks, I currently shoot this bow in Single Cam form, with a shoot through cable system. I am testing these new twin cams to compliment the shoot through design of the riser and cable system, and so far the results have been very promising.

Regards

Exactly


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## pronghorn (Jul 16, 2003)

MLONCAR,

Where do you live in Slovenia? The reason that I ask is because I do business with a factory called Lip Radomlje in Lubianna. 
Just curios.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

Is it my eyes or is there some serious cam lean in that bow Johan is shooting. Maybe an optical illusion, at least I hope it is!

Jon


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

jonnybow said:


> *Is it my eyes or is there some serious cam lean in that bow Johan is shooting. Maybe an optical illusion, at least I hope it is!
> 
> Jon *


Probably due to the use of a cable slide and HOyt split limbs 

Sorry couldn't resist


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## mloncar (Mar 3, 2003)

pronghorn said:


> *MLONCAR,
> 
> Where do you live in Slovenia? The reason that I ask is because I do business with a factory called Lip Radomlje in Lubianna.
> Just curios. *


i live about 80km from Ljubljana (the capital city of Slovenia)! i live in city called Celje


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## Goby (Jul 9, 2003)

Exactly, 
So those are the cams you were talking about. Very curious to see them in real life and try them of course  . Are the cables closer together than with the shoot through system on the single cam? That system had the cables a little bit wide for me. 

Defiant, if you don't like them, don't buy them. They don't sell as much bows as Hoyt, Martin, PSE,........... (ok, this could become quite a long list  ) but this doesn't mean they are a failure. I like the idea of some smaller companies trying to get their share of the market. Companies like Quos and OK are not really known by most people but I like these too. The more brands on the market, the bigger the chance of something really new and improved. 
The "Alternative exact" can't be that bad. Exactly sometimes even beats me on a field round with that one.


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Goby said:


> *Exactly,
> So those are the cams you were talking about. Very curious to see them in real life and try them of course  . Are the cables closer together than with the shoot through system on the single cam? That system had the cables a little bit wide for me. *


Yep, The cables are closer together, less room for the arrow to pass through but as I have discovered, there is no problem with clearance...


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2003)

The main problem I have seen with the shot thru system is the cable fray that the peep sight causes on the cables, with your sustem being closer will that not affect it even more?


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

Sean,
As many know I've been shooting the shoot-thru systems for a long time. I have seen a few instances where the peep could tick the cable after every shot. Most of the time it involved using some of the larger "insert" type peep sights and my own experience with some of the adjustable peeps out there. Sometimes, a string rotating as the bow is drawn can cause the string to oscillate more in slow motion. I haven't encountered any peep contact using the rope on the release, either, only with a string loop. This much I can guarantee you, it happens after the arrow has left the string. So that leads us to believe that anything we can do to "lighten" the string by removing nock sets, silencers, etc., will help to reduce string oscillation after the shot. In contrast, you could add speed buttons at the cams to accomplish this as well. As far as nock sets are concerned, I've always tied my own. If that doesn't work try increasing two strands at a time on your bowstring until you find the right balance between quickness and stability. Slow motion video of the Fury X cams reveals tremendous evidence that any lateral nock travel is confined to the area within the width of the nock, maybe 1/8" whereas there were many instances of cable guard setups averaging 1/2" with no less than 3/8", with as much as 7/8" of lateral string deviation during the powers stroke. Ask PRO1, he was there. We have learned a tremendous amount about the four cable system, with the results culminating in some great new designs about to be released. Shoot-thru two cams? A Martin First. Completely Torque-free Shoot-thru solo cam? A Martin First. A shoot-thru hybrid? Been there too. More advancements in archery technology on the horizon? You bet. If you want to talk about nock travel, then you need to consider vertical AND HORIZONTAL nock travel. Straight, Level nock travel? We've had that for years with various makes and models of two cams. Want perfect horizontal and vertical nock travel, straight and level, with perfect column loading on the back of your shaft? Then your next bow should be 2004' Martin. 


Coming to a dealer near you in 36 Days......


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## Pro1 (May 21, 2002)

Yes Jim, We DID find out some VERY interesting information at Vegas and the slow motion video area didn't we...... Definetly found out ALOT about cable guarded bows AND about Magnock for sure.. The video of MY Scepter III Fury X bow WITH Magnock can be viewed at www.magnock.com It is a big file but WELL WORTH the wait for download...Pro1


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2003)

Jim have you seen any of the fraying casued by the large fleching on the system, I know Martin offers the longer axels for this but if it still exists do you need to go back to the string,or can just serving over the area like on the winners string surfice?


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Sean: given the nature of the cams being down the centre line of the bow, no cam lean, no limb twist etc, there is very little left/right movement of the arrow. I have spent the majority of today shooting these new cams with a shoot thru cable system shooting the big Carbon Express shafts with 70mm Kurly vanes. The clearance on both sides is about 1/8 inch, I have had no vane contact problems and no wear on the cables. 

Saying that I will try a splitter arrangement on the next string/cable set I make to get a little more clearance (for my own piece of mind more than anything else!).


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Oh yes, almost forgot:



Defiant said:


> * the original pretty useless bow hardly ever seen at top shoots *


In the Single cam, shoot thru cable system form, in the hands of Samantha Stretton, won the 70m Head to Head British PREMIER event at Lilleshall today, beating a whole host of "mass produced" equipment.

Oh well 

Oh yes, AND shooting a British team qualifying score in the process.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

*Longer draw?*

Interesting cam design.

I'm wondering with the string tracking in the groove at rest position, how would you increase your draw a small increment without going to the next size larget cam??


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Hi stash

Of course you can amend the draw length a small amount on the strings and cables, ie. putting turns in or out. It is a limitation of the cam design, but there are a lot of cams out there which do not have any adjustment including the matthews. 

Exactly


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## Isaac (May 22, 2003)

*Shoot Through*

Exactly, 
The shoot through riser and fury-x/wedel style cams make for an AWESOME setup. It looks like the bow you are going to design is similar to the one I am selling in the classifieds:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=36050

Isaac


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

The actual Exact bow has been around for about 3 years, and has always been built with a shoot through cable system for Twin and Single cams where the customer preference asks for it. Very rarely a traditional cable guard set up is requested. 

What is being shown here is the new twin cam, for the same bow.

Re: your bow - I used to shoot a Coyote many years ago. It is a great piece of kit, although due to the odd weight placement on the riser, (top-bottom), it was fairly critical on hand placement. If I remember correctly it came with a huge lead weight that screwed into the whole below the grip to counter this problem.


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

Mmm...

Gadget...

*drools like Homer Simpson*

Looks seriously cool - when are we going to be seeing more detail?


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## Isaac (May 22, 2003)

Exactly,
Yes, the Coyote was a great bow when it was produced. I have had much success with mine.
The bow sits in the hand like a pendulum before, during, and after the shot.
I have not found the grip to be critical. I shoot an Altier sight that immediately notifies me of any change in grip pressure/torque, on this bow I very rarely have to let down because of pressure change or torque.
I do own the 16 ounce base weight as well as the other 5 weights that are designed to be positioned throughout the riser to allow the archer to perfectly balance the bow for their own shooting style. However, I found the bow to balance perfectly without any weights.

When do you anticipate the exact with the new cams to be available to the public?


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Don't get me wrong, the Coyote was an absolute joy to shoot. The shoot through riser does not seem to have become a more popular design with bow manufactures, despite it strength and balance advantages over the more traditional riser design. 

I hope the new cams will be available by early next year, I suppose it depends on the success of the on going testing. Keep posted here for the latest information.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

I have a set of these, received just before Isabel tore the hell out of Virginia, was without power for 10 days, and have been working 7x12 since and beyond so I have not set them up yet.

These wheels are really energy wheels with a string supressor foot to lower string oscillation on the power stroke and reduce string follow past the brace height on the shot.

For those that say they are just another Fury X cam, I say that you do not understand the geometry of cams and wheels and the characteristics thereof.

The supressor foot is quite long and most likely will cause the wheel to have a distinct "sweet spot" on draw length setting. Stash, we are in agreement. There may be a small window of draw adjustment but it will be small if the full benefit of the design is to be realized.

These wheels may well shoot a weaker arrow due to the more gentle flop-in but I would not believe a 29 inch spine rating of 1000, though it will be stiffer on a 26.5 inch arrow, if I told it myself. Do they group and score consistently at distance or do you just shoot through paper?

I will reserve any further comments until after I get time to play with the wheels some.


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## Seeking720 (Oct 21, 2003)

Hi Exactly,
I saw the new shoot through cams being used at a fita field shoot earlier this year and I was very impressed. It was the fastest quietest shoot through set up that I have ever seen. The fact that the cables are bit closer together should appeal to a far few archer who have tried a normal shoot through system and haven't had enough clearence between the bow arm and the cables. The bow that I saw had plenty of clearence for any normal sized fletches.
One quick question for you Exactly, How does it feel having Hoyt copying Alternative's idea to pursue the shoot through system.
Last year they borrowed Dartons idears and this year they seem to think shoot throughs are the best thing to copy- Your other half must be beating too many Hoyt shooters. Shame their risers aren't blanced like yours.
Seeking720


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## Twang! (Apr 20, 2002)

*Alternative's idea??????????? PLEEEEASE*

Seeking720, 


> One quick question for you Exactly, How does it feel having Hoyt copying Alternative's idea to pursue the shoot through system.


 You seem to be trying to stroke your fellow countrymen's ego(or his johnny-come-lately product line), but you fail to mention the fact that he didn't invent the shoot thru-riser either. Here's a picture of the shoot-thru riser patent, long before Hoyt, York, PSE, or A.S.S.


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## Tony Goodwin (Nov 4, 2002)

emlynthegrey

Never claimed we invented it! Just that this version of it works extraordinarily well!!!

I thought that I had invented sex when I was about 19-20 years old. But that was not the case either!

There are som things we were first with. See the post for the Ultimate Shoot through Bow!!

Tony..


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## FITA4fun (Sep 1, 2003)

Those cams are on Alternative Sporting Services new shoot-through compound. This looks to be an undate/development of their Exact bow. There's a thread about in further down this forum, or you can see it at www.altservices.co.uk (click on the clubhouse section).


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## Shirt (Aug 31, 2002)

Tony Goodwin said:


> *
> I thought that I had invented sex when I was about 19-20 years old. *


ROFLMAO!


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## Seeking720 (Oct 21, 2003)

To Whom it may concern,
The purpose of my comment, was not to state that the shoot though riser was invented by Alternative. It was to point out that they reconizied the potential of this design and have developed it as they saw fit, investing their time and money. In an atempt to produce a better bow. Now a year or so later along come Hoyt, and suddenly shoot through a really good idea.
Truth be told it seems Hoyt doesn't seem to be able come with any earth shattering new ideas of it owns. So it just incorporates any thing it likes the look of in a effort to sell this years bows to the same people that brought last year's model.
Please don't make *****y comments about companies that are trying to do the "right thing" by archers every where, by trying to produce better products. Instead of just change for changes sake.
Before anyone starts flaming me as anti-Hoyt, I have owned serveral Hoyt bows and they have all been excellent. However this recent attempt to reinvent the wheel every year doesn't help Hoyt's image.
Seeking720


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## Isaac (May 22, 2003)

Seeking720,
Yes, you are correct. For years Archery Manufactures have been taking old ideas and reinventing them. But this is a good thing, because with every reinvention Archery equipment gets just a little better. Or at least MOST of time!

Let’s take the Alternative Exact for example. Some may argue that this bow was a copy of the Coyote Chaparral. As a matter a fact, if you do a search on posts by Tony Goodwin, you will see that he designed the bow only AFTER the Coyote Chaparral was no longer available to him. See picture below:

As far as the balance on the Hoyt, it DOES balance like a conventional style shoot through! From the pictures it does not seem like it would, but when you actually hold it in your hand it has perfect balance. It seems Hoyt addressed this issue by placing additional mass weight below the center of the grip to counteract the side weight created by the TEC design. They also drilled and tapped the riser is several places to allow YOU the archer the ability to perfectly balance the bow with weights for YOUR shooting style.


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## Tony Goodwin (Nov 4, 2002)

Check out : 1440AD at

http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm#1900 - Present Day

So Hoyt got a Patent? 

Tony


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

Tony Goodwin said:


> *I thought that I had invented sex when I was about 19-20 years old. But that was not the case either!*



LA LA LA LA.... I CAN'T HEAR THIS.... LA LA LA LA TO MUCH INFORMATION!!!   

Did you guys not know I was not born... I was created  

Seeking720: I know where you are coming from, BUT, If Hoyt has tried to copy the Exact bow, their aim must be to try to convince the masses who buy Hoyt bows that a shoot thru riser does not work after all.

Try it, then try the Exact, make up your own mind!


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## Seeking720 (Oct 21, 2003)

*Exact or Hoyt?*

Hi Exactly,
While I am sure that the new Hoyt bows are going to be good. If I was going to switch to a shoot through it would the Exact. The reason being two fold. Firstly the riser is balanced- i.e. the left and right sides are the same- Unlike the Hoyt. The second reason being the new cam (I think it was the K2), the bow that I saw with them on sounded better than most twin cam bows with normal string systems. Personally I wouldn't need to shoot the bows to know which one I would pick. Bye the way any chance of a multi track single cam based on the same idea as the K2 cam?

Regards Seeking720


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

*Re: Exact or Hoyt?*



Seeking720 said:


> *Bye the way any chance of a multi track single cam based on the same idea as the K2 cam?*


I wish... although I cannot see the difficulty as it is already triple track, just need to move the string track to the middle rather than the Left(for a right handed archer). I think this has already been done anyway, can't remember who tho'

BTW well done for beating Mr S at the English... on golds!!!!... shame on you


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## superdiablo (Feb 7, 2003)

Exactly, please speed up your CNC machines as much as possible while keeping awesome quality!
Javier


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## Tony Goodwin (Nov 4, 2002)

Just stepping in here.

Putting the string in the middle track is not a problem. The problem is that to get the loading correct the cable track needs to be in middle. The loading on the inside and outside string will be the same but the cable will be higher. This is the reason why the Martin solution looks over complicated. There is however another solution that is a little more elegant. but I had better not mention it before making a model, or someone else will patent it and claim it to be their idea.


Tony


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## skippy1440 (Oct 15, 2003)

Whats the point of having a totally balanced bow, ie symmetrical? when u are then going to add a sight and arrow rest to one side, hence making it unbalanced?
I think the hoyt idea is good, as it adds the stability of preventing the bending of the riser, but then doesnt go adding the extra weight as seen by other shoot thru bows. And as far as i know their idea is different, altho still a shoot thru bow, the design is different.


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## skippy1440 (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Exactly _ I have the bow set to a 50lb peak, ATA of 36.5", Brace height of around 7"(bit of a lie really, depends where you measure to for Brace height!). I am shooting a 26.5" shaft with a 1000 spine arrow(i.e the same spine as my fiance!!!). With all that in mind a 270fps through the speed gun is pretty hot.


I cannot see how these cams are pretty hot? as with my current setup I am getting 283fps, and by using archers advantage changing my arrow spine to 5 spines lighter keeping all other variables the same, I am getting 306fps, 23fps faster, so I think there must be something about the bow that requires such weak spined arrows for speed, because by AA your bow would probably be only doing 250ish fps? so can you really get arrows that week to tune at all distances, or is it just u manage to paper tune them at one distance... and therefore use really weak arrows to get the speed?


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## Tony Goodwin (Nov 4, 2002)

The balance of the bow is always going to be better with the shoot though than with a conventional bow! I shoot right handed and have the rest on the RH side and the sight on the left hand side. With the set up the bow sits nice and square with no side weights. 

As for the weight the Alternative eXact is lighter than most other bows. Check out the weights!

I don't think there is a large bow maunfacturer that has produced a shoot thorugh riser with a split cable system. If it is right to have a shhot through riser you shoul compliment that with a shoot though cable system and a shoot through cable system should have a shoot through riser. Only the smaller bow producers do this in Europe and the US.

With the Hoyt shoot though, You say that it will stop the riser flexing. I guess you are saying that all the other Hoyts do flex. And if they do flex due to the sight window. Then the offset load caused by the cable guard will also twist the limbs. Possibly the Hoyt engineers have worked this out and the bend in the riser will compensate for the twist in the limbs.



Personall I think it is better not to have flex in the riser and not to have twist in the limbs!.


Tony


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## Tony Goodwin (Nov 4, 2002)

Skippy

The IBO rating is 313 fps and AMO 242. They are realy the only figures to go by. Compare these with the figure given out by other manufacturers.

Yes they 1000 spine arrows do group at long distance. I don't shoot that well but can get 3" groups at 70M.

The reason you can shoot a light spine is because you have a straight nock travel both in the vertical and horizonal direction. 

you don't have to shoot weak arrows, stiffer arrows still give you just the same bullet hole!

Tony


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## SPOTTYBOW (Oct 23, 2003)

Exactly
Back on the 25/09 you mentioned a shaft length of 26.5".
Last time we met you were about my height, have you had your arms shortened?!!! or fitted a mantle piece on the back of your bow. If the latter, where are the drawings? be carefull, someone out there will tell you that Adams patented it in the 18th centuary.
Cheers
Iain


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## Seeking720 (Oct 21, 2003)

*Skippy A moment of your time*

Hello there Skippy,
Yes I know that you can plug a lighter arrow into AA, and at the press of a button it will tell how fast it will be. But and it is a big but, you try to tune and shoot the bow with that arrow and you will get nowhere. The fact that it can be done with an Exact bow and the new K2 cam IS quite impressive. Baring in mind that at the kind of draw length that Mr Goodwin is shooting, his arrow speed is as least as quick if not quicker than your Hoyt would be at the same set up. 

Seeking720


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## Exactly (Oct 30, 2002)

*Re: Skippy A moment of your time*

Spotty: Well spotted, the set of test cams I have are a little too short for me actually, I really need something about an Inch longer. Hopefully our machinist is working hard to get the cams out which will enable me to make more comparisons to my current single cam set up. And also so that we can start putting them on our bows!


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## JS1440 (Apr 22, 2003)

*
Yes I know that you can plug a lighter arrow into AA, and at the press of a button it will tell how fast it will be. But and it is a big but, you try to tune and shoot the bow with that arrow and you will get nowhere.
*

Personally I've always found the compound bow to be very forgiving of arrow spine anyway. My current bow will shoot anything from a 620ACE to a 370ACE (or 410X10) with great results.

But as for a 1000 spine ACE at 270fps........ I wouldn't like to be shooting it in the wind.... 
J


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## Tony Goodwin (Nov 4, 2002)

JS1440

Probably better to talk facts rather than gut feeling.

I have two bows that I shoot

1. single cam 58lbs shooting DS500 , 307 grains, at 270fps.

Wind drift at 70M with a 10km/hour wind calculates to 139mm

2. New K2 cams 50lbs shooting DS1000 256 grains @275 fps

Wind drift at 70M with 10km/hour wind calculates to 138mm


To be fair I had the same gut feeling when I first set the bow up but both calculations and practice proved me wrong.

Tony


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