# Hoyt stealth shot



## Red01

Haven't people Ben playing around with string stops on recurves for years and always found them to be more trouble then they were worth? http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-awovH...top_uri=/watch?v=-awovHAWbfo&feature=youtu.be

And sense when are we obsessing over a fps here and thier. 

Cedrake


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## Dacer

One more thing we all need to buy... Interesting for sure. If it doesn't cause any tune change it can't be having that large of an impact. At least nothing that I suspect non elite level archers could detect.


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## caspian

but if they don't keep inventing gadgets, what will they sell to the sheep?

I notice in the video they have the stops set up to be touching the string at brace - wisdom from the compound world is to set up the stop so it's slightly clear of the string, so it stops the overtravel of the string after the arrow has left. I can't listed to the video's sound (at work) but it appears they intend the stops to function more as a breakaway initiator?

I'd want some serving on the string where it contacts the stops... wonder if that will counteract any gains to be had in speed?


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## kshet26

Yeah the fps gain is pretty trivial, but people love dampening! So this might be more of a post shot reaction / confidence boosting device than anything else.

I wonder how this will play with brace height tuning or if this makes brace height moot as long as its within recommended range.


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## kshet26

caspian said:


> I notice in the video they have the stops set up to be touching the string at brace - wisdom from the compound world is to set up the stop so it's slightly clear of the string, so it stops the overtravel of the string after the arrow has left. I can't listed to the video's sound (at work) but it appears they intend the stops to function more as a breakaway initiator?


Yes the WA rules state that while this device is legal, the string may not touch the dampeners at brace height. More here.


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## Red01

kshet26 said:


> Yes the WA rules state that while this device is legal, the string may not touch the dampeners at brace height. More here.



That was my next question is this even legual. But I guess rules can be bought 

Cedrake


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## Falkryus

*Hoyt Recurve Stealth Shot*

Is this legal for FITA ? What do you think about this ? Can I use this technology in any formula Riser or just with the Ion-X ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-awovHAWbfo


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## massman

Gee, this looks close to the same idea a contributor suggested a couple of months ago. A way to mechanically determine when is the best time for the arrow to leave the string.

Pretty sure it was POO POOed by some. Who would of thought.

Tom


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## Bob Furman

*Hoyt Recurve Stealth Shot*

Kind of cool looking. I'm not sure if it would be worth the cost for gaining 1/2 to 1 fps though.


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## chrstphr

Already a thread here

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2161705

Chris


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## chrstphr

and now this is the third thread today on this.


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2161705

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2161798


Chris


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## target1

Oh gee...they come in different colors...better hurry up and get some...I can just see now my scores jumping up.


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## Bob Furman

Has anyone seen the video of the new Hoyt Recurve Stealth yet? Lol

Sorry guys, I posted before i read the new posts today,b otherwise, I would of noticed the other posts.


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## K31Scout

I used an old 1986 Hoyt Spectra compound to build this 21" ILF riser (Warf...thanks Bob Gordon for the idea) and decided to mod the cable spreader into a string stop. This is my hunting bow and what it does is eliminate the need for an arm guard no matter if I'm wearing bulky clothes. It does quiet the shot and does make for a nice shot reaction. Just a pleasant thump. I tuned for a quiet brace height first at 8 1/2" even tiller and then set it up to _just_ touch the string. Tuned for bareshaft and all is good.


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## martinkartin

I'm guessing the Ion-x's have a threaded top limb to install these? I wonder if it would work with just the bottom when using it with the HPX


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## hoytshooter15

Olympic recurves are starting to resemble compounds more and more these days. It kinda scares me


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## Seattlepop

Since it seems that most string vibration comes after the shot, the reason most of us need arm guards, proof of the Stealth's effectiveness might lie there.


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## bobnikon

Just the back of the tiller hole (which is threaded). Should work on just about any riser. I think I need to work on less gear though, not more.


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## TheRohBoat

this couldn't possibly be allowed by world archery


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## Arsi

We all know the effectiveness lies in color coordination. Let's be real


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## Falkryus

Can I use that in a Hoyt HPX ?


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## Arsi

Falkryus said:


> Can I use that in a Hoyt HPX ?


I dont have it but most likely. The HPX does not come with the top limb bolt hole threaded so you would have to tap it yourself. At least my HPX top bolt isnt. I might get it just because I think it looks cool. Pretty much how I make almost all my equipment decisions nowadays.


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## kshet26

TheRohBoat said:


> this couldn't possibly be allowed by world archery


It is indeed allowed by world archery. The string just can't touch them at rest.


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## toj

I think the laugh at the end says it all.


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## MickeyBisco

toj said:


> I think the laugh at the end says it all.




I thought the same thing! Laughter, followed by him reaching for the check they provide to endorse it!

Good for Jake.


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## TheRohBoat

> It is indeed allowed by world archery. The string just can't touch them at rest.


Doesn't the string sit on the damper when at rest because the dampers are set at brace height?


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## kshet26

In the video it appears that the string is touching, but to be competition legal, they have to be set up not to touch when the bow is just sitting (like during equipment inspection). This obviously means that the string will hit them past brace height (2mm maybe?).


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## K31Scout

Nice way to see if brace has changed; just eyeball it.


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## cc46

All I can think of is .....Forrest Gump "When I was in China on the All-American Ping Pong team, I just loved playing ping-pong with my Flexolite ping pong paddle."


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## nifty

Just another couple of dampers hanging off a bent stick


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## Bob Furman

Something needs to pay the Engineers salary


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## chrstphr

looks like more added back weight. I guess Jake changed his stab arrangement to accomodate this new setup. 


Chris


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## OCBrent

I'd like to try them out for Vibration Dampening. I just got a new Ion-X and I've been wanting to use the "built-in" bushings in the Formula limbs, but haven't found something I liked yet. Has the "Compound World" found these "stops" effective?

I wonder if you had a really bad release, if you could end up sending the string around those stops.  Not thrilled about another piece of equipment to watch over, but if it worked I would.

Brent


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## robin smith

cc46 said:


> All I can think of is .....Forrest Gump "When I was in China on the All-American Ping Pong team, I just loved playing ping-pong with my Flexolite ping pong paddle."


MHO, Quote of the day



OCBrent said:


> I'd like to try them out for Vibration Dampening. I just got a new Ion-X and I've been wanting to use the "built-in" bushings in the Formula limbs, but haven't found something I liked yet. Has the "Compound World" found these "stops" effective?
> 
> I wonder if you had a really bad release, if you could end up sending the string around those stops.  Not thrilled about another piece of equipment to watch over, but if it worked I would.
> 
> Brent


How does adding weight to the wrong side of the bow effect your setup. Now I would need more stab weight out front to counter it. What about over all bow weight?


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## limbwalker

> I'd want some serving on the string where it contacts the stops... wonder if that will counteract any gains to be had in speed?


We have a winner!

So, now we have three more things to worry about on our recurves. Two adjustable string stops, and then protective serving top and bottom to maintain...

All of that is worth some extra dampening? 

As with anything new, there is a small group of world class archers I watch to see whether they adopt it permanently. If not, then that's all I really need to know.


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## chrstphr

I have no interest in experimenting with this.



Chris


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## w8lon

With the wording of string not allowed to touch these stops during equipment check, bow passes preliminary check and as the day becomes warmer a little creep creates a now illegal setup. As the shooter is focused on his new world record score they do not notice the brace closing in on the stops, now touching a foul is called at end of game shooter is disqualified.


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## caspian

OCBrent said:


> Has the "Compound World" found these "stops" effective?


not the part of the compound world focussed primarily on accuracy on target.  they're almost exclusively the preserve of speed bows which generate a lot of vibration due to being engineered to generate the last few FPS for marketing purposes, or for people who the industry has convinced that deer care about bow noise _after_ the arrow has already arrived.

the problem is that to do anything useful to promote consistency in arrow separation, the string needs to contact the stops while the arrow is still attached to the string. given we all try really hard to get optimal nock fit, that means running the stoppers quite close to the string at brace. that in turn means the protective serving and more importantly the stopper rubbers wear rapidly, which in turn will change how the bow is tuned. unless you want to change stoppers like I change socks, you've just added another variable to your setup.

all the serious compound shooters I know take them off and throw them in the cupboard, which is where mine is.


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## limbwalker

> all the serious compound shooters I know take them off and throw them in the cupboard, which is where mine is.


Great point. Had these been effective for the advantages as advertised, compound archers would have been using them years ago. But they don't. And recurvers won't either. 

Why do I feel like that TV pitch man will be selling bows soon? 

These things remind me of some of the crazy designs of the 60's and early 70's that we don't see anymore either.


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## caspian

finally got to watch the video with sound. 1/2 to 3/4 FPS gain doesn't sound worth it to me.

having thought about it for 24 hours - 

increased arrow speed - negligible. having had a good relook at the video, I really can't see any protective serving on the string... was that increase quoted with a "naked" string that will chew up?
decreased vibration and sound - this isn't a hunting rig, who cares about sound. and if your bow is loud or vibrates, something else is out of whack... would you prefer to fix the issue or disguise it a bit? I'd expect anyone running a compatible rig to want it to be tuned as well as possible.
"better" arrow separation from the string - possible, I grant... but like the point above, you'd expect someone running a compatible rig to have fairly high expectations. to me, that would include factors like consistent nock fit, which is where any variation should be coming from, as the limbs and string aren't changing from shot to shot.

I'm sure people will buy them when the sponsored archers are paid to use them.


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## limbwalker

> I'm sure people will buy them when the sponsored archers are paid to use them.


Two thoughts...

1) Most folks who are new to the sport won't know the difference, and that's what companies like this are counting on every time they release something "innovative"

2) I will wait and see what kind of scores are being shot with these. If I see a jump in scores from the same archers who were shooting world class scores before using them, then of course I'll try adding some to my bow. But the beautiful thing about the sport of archery is that the target is the only, and final judge of "performance." And that judge's "opinion" is always available for the world to see at the end of every tournament. So we're all fortunate in a way in that we don't have to just take someone's word for it. We can see the results ourselves.


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## pencarrow

I like the laugh at the end of the video............like " what a load of "BS" that was".

Cheers
Fritz


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## limbwalker

I think if folks have been paying attention over the past few years, there are a few top archers who are constantly tinkering with gear, and then there are one or two who use pretty basic setups, and they don't change much. It's especially worth noting that the archers in the latter category are consistently higher ranking than those in the former. 

Just an observation.


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## straat

A recurve bowstring is only allowed to have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers. You cannot add two more. 



> 11.1.2. A bowstring of any number of strands.
> 11.1.2.1. Which may be of different colours and of the material chosen for the purpose. It may have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers, a nocking point to which may be added serving(s) to fit the arrow nock as necessary, and, to locate this point, one or two nock locators may be positioned. At each end of the bowstring there is a loop which is placed in the string nocks of the bow when braced. In addition one attachment is permitted on the string to serve as a lip or nose mark. The serving on the string shall not end within the athlete’s vision at full draw. The bowstring shall not in any way assist aiming through the use of a peephole, marking, or any other means.


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## toj

On archeryinterchange GT is hailing this as the greatest advantage since the clicker and that believes it's of such an advantage it shouldn't be allowed.


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## Robert43

To me it just reminds me when about 9 years ago the STS came out & people were making great clams about it like making your grouping tighter etc . It quieting a bow I can see it in hunting but in target it be like my compound string stopper put in the cupboard untill I sell the bow


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## caspian

straat said:


> A recurve bowstring is only allowed to have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers. You cannot add two more.


might be a matter for a technical decision - I can't see it being regarded as an advantage in terms of aiming etc as long as it doesn't finish in the line of sight. as a last resort you'd just continue the end serving as far as required if it was truly an advantage. or accept that you'll be changing strings more often, along with worn stoppers. neither of the latter will be a concern to a pro archer.


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## limbwalker

straat said:


> A recurve bowstring is only allowed to have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers. You cannot add two more.


Well, I'd say that's a problem then. What are they going to tell all their customers who develop shredded bowstrings at the stoppers within a few weeks? 

Like I've said before, this is another "WWBD?" question. 

There is a small group of truly elite archers in the world who don't fool around with their gear. They know a gimmick when they see one, but they will also take advantage of true improvments too, if they are worth the trouble. I watch what these guys and gals do, and don't worry about the rest...

Hint - look up the WA rankings, and pay attention to the folks on page one.


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## toj

If there is any advantage at all and it doesn't change tune then expect to see all hoyt pro staff with them at the next major competition.
It's as simple as that.


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## limbwalker

I only pay attention to what a few of their pro staffers do. It pays to pick and choose who you emulate. 

There's one pro staffer in particular who's choices folks should really watch more closely, as he doesn't mess around. He's also been on pg. 1 of the WA rankings for about 5 years now.

Again, "WWBD?" 

I used to say this about another pro-staffer of theirs, until he switched to W&W.


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## Jake Kaminski

limbwalker said:


> Well, I'd say that's a problem then. What are they going to tell all their customers who develop shredded bowstrings at the stoppers within a few weeks?
> 
> Like I've said before, this is another "WWBD?" question.
> 
> There is a small group of truly elite archers in the world who don't fool around with their gear. They know a gimmick when they see one, but they will also take advantage of true improvments too, if they are worth the trouble. I watch what these guys and gals do, and don't worry about the rest...
> 
> Hint - look up the WA rankings, and pay attention to the folks on page one.


http://instagram.com/p/i6h3rhSPaE/


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## Bob Furman

I don't see where it states that you can have only one serving?


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## julle

Bob Furman said:


> I don't see where it states that you can have only one serving?


 It may have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers, a nocking point to which may be added serving(s) to fit the arrow nock as necessary, and, to locate this point, one or two nock locators may be positioned. At each end of the bowstring there is a loop which is placed in the string nocks of the bow when braced. In addition one attachment is permitted on the string to serve as a lip or nose mark.


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## Bob Furman

julle said:


> It may have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers, a nocking point to which may be added serving(s) to fit the arrow nock as necessary, and, to locate this point, one or two nock locators may be positioned. At each end of the bowstring there is a loop which is placed in the string nocks of the bow when braced. In addition one attachment is permitted on the string to serve as a lip or nose mark.


So basically it will be up to a Judges interpretation seeing it states:

"It may have "a" centre serving accommodate the drawing fingers"


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## Basilios

Jakes Instagram states him using the same string since November with no fraying issues.


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## julle

Bob Furman said:


> So basically it will be up to a Judges interpretation seeing it states:
> 
> "It may have "a" centre serving accommodate the drawing fingers"


Read it like, you can have a string without anything atached, except 2 loops at the end, a centre serving and a kisser. In the rule book they can't state everything that CAN'T be on your bow, but they can give you a guideline of what can.


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## limbwalker

Basilios said:


> Jakes Instagram states him using the same string since November with no fraying issues.


Interesting claim.

I've yet to see a bowstring that didn't fray when used with a string stop, but maybe he has some kind of special string material I don't know about. 

Hey, we'll see. As I've said - time will tell. If they seem to work, then folks all over will be fitting aftermarket string stops to their recurves by simply using adapter screws in the back end of the limb bolt holes. Then we'll see how well the strings hold up to them.

My gut's telling me this fad will last a year, or less. But I reserve the right to be convinced...

Again, proof for something like this appears in the form of new personal best scores for an already top level archer, that can be attributed directly to the equipment. This happens very rarely. Not often a truly innovative product or modification comes along on a tool as old, and as simple as a recurve bow.


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## Bob Furman

I have seen several compounds with a lower string stop. All of them have an additional center serving on the string to protect it from beating up the string.

http://www.archerytalkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/7-22-08-058.jpg


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## julle

compounds have way more force at the end then recurves do.


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## limbwalker

julle said:


> compounds have way more force at the end then recurves do.


Maybe that's the difference then, but if a compound string is traveling 280 fps. at brace, and a recurve string is traveling 205 fps. at brace, shouldn't there still be approx. 70% of the wear occurring? Even the trad. recurve bowhunters I know who use string stops are serving their bowstrings to prevent wear. 

Again, time will tell.


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## gster123

limbwalker said:


> Again, proof for something like this appears in the form of new personal best scores for an already top level archer, that can be attributed directly to the equipment.


It should be personal bests and an overall average of scores that are higher - thats how I see if anything improves. I can shoot a PB but if my average dropps it probably aint a good move, the PB was a flash in the pan, averages and consistancy (the PDF) are king. and what I will be looking for.


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## lksseven

limbwalker said:


> Interesting claim.
> 
> I've yet to see a bowstring that didn't fray when used with a string stop, but maybe he has some kind of special string material I don't know about.
> 
> Hey, we'll see. As I've said - time will tell. If they seem to work, then folks all over will be fitting aftermarket string stops to their recurves by simply using adapter screws in the back end of the limb bolt holes. Then we'll see how well the strings hold up to them.
> 
> My gut's telling me this fad will last a year, or less. But I reserve the right to be convinced...
> 
> _Again, proof for something like this appears in the form of new personal best scores for an already top level archer, that can be attributed directly to the equipment. This happens very rarely. Not often a truly innovative product or modification comes along on a tool as old, and as simple as a recurve bow._


John, what would you name as the last couple of innovations that did actually prove out to be "truly innovative" and have long lasting effectiveness ?


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## lksseven

Jake's Instagram thread states "jakekaminskia
FYI. Used these for every day training except for 3-5 days before an event and roughly 2-3 days around a holiday."

So, does that indicate that he's using them for training, but taking them off before a competition?


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## caspian

Basilios said:


> Jakes Instagram states him using the same string since November with no fraying issues.


mmm... I find it curious that a pro archer would use a string that long full-time anyway.



Bob Furman said:


> I have seen several compounds with a lower string stop. All of them have an additional center serving on the string to protect it from beating up the string.


yep.



limbwalker said:


> Maybe that's the difference then, but if a compound string is traveling 280 fps. at brace, and a recurve string is traveling 205 fps. at brace, shouldn't there still be approx. 70% of the wear occurring? Even the trad. recurve bowhunters I know who use string stops are serving their bowstrings to prevent wear.
> 
> Again, time will tell.


force aside, I would expect a compound to experience a lot less sideways oscillation of the limbs and string, due to wider limbs (including across split limbs) and the greater static limb loads at brace height. I'd also expect that greater brace height tension to result in less strikes of the string against the stopper(s), plus take into account the shorter length of string involved - less mass to damp.

first hand experience shows that compounds chew up stoppers rapidly, and without serving, the string frays rapidly too.


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## Dacer

lksseven said:


> Jake's Instagram thread states "jakekaminskia
> FYI. Used these for every day training except for 3-5 days before an event and roughly 2-3 days around a holiday."
> 
> So, does that indicate that he's using them for training, but taking them off before a competition?


He probably took them off because they were not ready to be publicly released yet.


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## limbwalker

Now THIS is an innovative use of string stops, ca. 1984. 

I shot a Bear Delta V in a shop in Mass. that year. That bow generated a lot of conversation alright.

Bear Archery was cutting edge in those days.


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## SBills

I’d be wary to run one for NFAA trad. The rules don’t spell it out and I remember there was some stink years ago when the STS first came out and they had to make rule changes in 2007 to make them legal for BHFS


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## SBills

FWIW I had one many years ago on a DAS hunting recurve. It worked fine but was hardly a game changer for me at the time.


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## limbwalker

Scott, I remember that. Lots of trad guys have used string stops on their recurves, or at least tried them. But if your view of archery is only Olympic target recurve, or if you're fairly new to the sport, you won't know this and it will seem like something new - that's what some companies count on when they market their products. Archery manufacturers, shoe companies, car companies, etc. - they've all done it for as long as we've known marketing.


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## midwayarcherywi

Cool. I can't wait for the new Caddy's with fins. Please, please, please bring back the 1959 version!


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## massman

John, If you can find a picture...check out a GROVES compound circa 1976. Similar if not the same configuration as the Bear you show. It was an attempt at betting away from the royalty payments to Allen.

Tom


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## limbwalker

Yup, I'm familiar with the Groves bows.

Seeing things like this listed as "new and innovative" is tough to take for folks who've been around archery for a while. I'm sure the Dick Tone's and Butch Johnson's of the world got a good chuckle out of it. 

What some folks fail to realize when I point this stuff out is that it's not about the product. It's about the claims. Had any company claimed that double string dampers on a recurve were "new and innovative" and were going to revolutionize the sport, I'd have had the same reaction. Unfortunately, there just seems to be one particular company that reliably makes outrageous claims that IMO, tend to diminish the real quality of their product.

Hoyt makes some damn fine bows that IMO should be able to stand on their own feet without claiming to be more than what they really are.

Their marketing dept. needs to watch a few episodes of Dragnet, and then maybe they'll "get it."

Unfortunately, I fear they've been banking on sheeple for a while now, and have become addicted to that path instead.


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## chrstphr

I will be interested to see how many people have this on their bows at the USAT tournaments. It will also be interesting to see if Jake keeps it on his bow.


Chris


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## Basilios

limbwalker said:


> Yup, I'm familiar with the Groves bows.
> 
> Seeing things like this listed as "new and innovative" is tough to take for folks who've been around archery for a while. I'm sure the Dick Tone's and Butch Johnson's of the world got a good chuckle out of it.
> 
> What some folks fail to realize when I point this stuff out is that it's not about the product. It's about the claims. Had any company claimed that double string dampers on a recurve were "new and innovative" and were going to revolutionize the sport, I'd have had the same reaction. Unfortunately, there just seems to be one particular company that reliably makes outrageous claims that IMO, tend to diminish the real quality of their product.
> 
> Hoyt makes some damn fine bows that IMO should be able to stand on their own feet without claiming to be more than what they really are.
> 
> Their marketing dept. needs to watch a few episodes of Dragnet, and then maybe they'll "get it."
> 
> Unfortunately, I fear they've been banking on sheeple for a while now, and have become addicted to that path instead.


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## limbwalker

> It will also be interesting to see if Jake keeps it on his bow.


Indeed. But there are a few other staff shooters I'll be watching as well.

So the problem with aggressive marketing and dramatic claims for a new feature like this is that it really paints the staff shooters in a corner. It's no problem for the engineers or the marketing staff, or the company spokespersons, because they don't have to shoot it in competition. And if it works out for the archers, then all is fine. But if not, then what are the staff shooters supposed to do? They are put in the position of either using something they would rather not use, or having to answer difficult questions from other archers when they decide not to use it.

This is why I always tell folks that if they wish to be a pro-staffer, to be careful what they wish for.  Nothing comes without strings attached. These archers are also put in the position where they are repeatedly asked to test product or demonstrate product, which results in them constantly having to switch gear and fiddle with stuff.

We saw this have an effect on a few top shooters in 2012, I believe. It's also one reason I've always had so much respect for Vic, in that years ago, he found a combination that worked well for him, and even though he makes his living through archery and could shoot for any company he wants, he has always made equipment decisions in favor of what helps him win vs. the opportunity to make another buck.

Some archers are just wired to want to try new stuff all the time, and that's fine too. It really comes down to what makes them most comfortable. Jake clearly likes to tinker and try new things, and I'm sure Hoyt is thrilled to have an archer of his ability testing those things out for them. My guess is if he had to shoot the same "old" riser and limbs for 10 years like Vic has, he would not be real happy about it. I run into archers like this all the time. 

Took me a while as a coach to let some of my students with this personality experiment with things, as it's not really my nature. Eventually I realized that was part of the allure of the sport for them - the chance to tinker and try new stuff, and if they had a bow with new things on it, they would be inspired to shoot even more. So I guess for some it can provide a little extra motivation, and that's always a good thing.


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## bobnikon

limbwalker said:


> Eventually I realized that was part of the allure of the sport for them - the chance to tinker and try new stuff, and if they had a bow with new things on it, they would be inspired to shoot even more. So I guess for some it can provide a little extra motivation, and that's always a good thing.


Part of the individuality and psychology of archery. So many different motiviations, interests and abilities, but we all love the sport. It really is pretty cool.

Cheers


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## K31Scout

It seems like this would be a simple project for DIY if your bow has dual rear bushings. None of mine do. Why wait for the "top" shooters to do all the work.


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## BaconRocks

I think they look interesting, I guess time will tell how well they work. Here's a couple pictures Jake put of them on Instagram by the way:


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## limbwalker

K31Scout said:


> It seems like this would be a simple project for DIY if your bow has dual rear bushings. None of mine do. Why wait for the "top" shooters to do all the work.


These bows don't have rear bushings. They are simply using the back side of the limb bolt holes, which are drilled and tapped already for set screws.

You could buy adjustable string stops and do this yourself in about 10 minutes. 

Hopefully everyone will do this, so we can have endless threads about fine tuning your string stops. I mean, do they go high or low? How far from the nock ends of the string is optimal? Should you have them spaced evenly or offset? What's the optimal spacing between them? How far from the string should they be set? .... and on and on and on...

I am not the type of person who welcomes an opportunity to put even more accessories on an already simple tool. To those who are - good luck answering all the questions above. As if you didn't have enough things on your bow to worry about already.


----------



## K31Scout

Refreshing to see the blue bow with the $2.50 Hoyt stick on rest instead of the latest innovation. 
John, if it isn't about the string stop those questions will be about redundant risers that come and go or the new limb that isn't better than a 30 year old one. Now arrows on the other hand are worth talking about.


----------



## target1

maybe they only work on blue bows, providing you are wearing the right archery shoes


----------



## limbwalker

K31Scout said:


> Refreshing to see the blue bow with the $2.50 Hoyt stick on rest instead of the latest innovation.
> John, if it isn't about the string stop those questions will be about redundant risers that come and go or the new limb that isn't better than a 30 year old one. Now arrows on the other hand are worth talking about.


You are 100% correct on all points IMO.


----------



## Ar-Pe-Lo

I did not seen a single Hoyt staff archer (did not seen Jake thou) using these on last weekend World cup.......I suppose we have the answer then


----------



## Arsi

K31Scout said:


> Refreshing to see the blue bow with the $2.50 Hoyt stick on rest instead of the latest innovation.


I think it may be just because its a HOYT rest. Not a competitor. Isnt everything affiliated on that bow? Hoyt? Axcel? Fuse? Also it goes with the Red White and Blue motif they got going on. Not bashing the super rest though! Definitely a good rest.


----------



## chrstphr

i use the Hoyt super rest on my bows, and it is on almost all my JOAD competition team bows. It is the best arrow rest in my opinion and i see no reason to change it. Competitors do use the rest too. It is on every Korean Women's Team bow and on the bows of the Korean Team in England at the world cup indoor this weekend. 


Chris


----------



## limbwalker

Yup, great rest. Still very useful, and my wife and daughter and many of my JOAD/4-H students use it too.

You see, that's the thing about archery. Shooting an arrow from a bow is a pretty simple thing that hasn't changed much in a long, long time. 

In some ways, I find it particularly ironic that a bow wearing a pair of "stealth shot" string stops, would also have a 40 year-old plastic arrow rest on it. LOL. 

To each their own. 

When it comes to "innovation" on a recurve bow, shot with fingers, I'm always from Missouri. 

"show me" the increase in scores, and I'll pay attention.


----------



## Borja1300

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> I did not seen a single Hoyt staff archer (did not seen Jake thou) using these on last weekend World cup.......I suppose we have the answer then


Jake and Dough Denton were using it at Telford (UK) indoor world cup.

Jake also used it at Lancaster shot.


----------



## w8lon

We had a Super Rest failure today on my daughters bow when the support broke off. Guess they just don't last forever as it was salvaged from one of my TD4's from 1990. Perhaps the plastic became brittle after 24 years!


----------



## Bob Furman

limbwalker said:


> These bows don't have rear bushings. They are simply using the back side of the limb bolt holes, which are drilled and tapped already for set screws.
> 
> You could buy adjustable string stops and do this yourself in about 10 minutes.
> 
> Hopefully everyone will do this, so we can have endless threads about fine tuning your string stops. I mean, do they go high or low? How far from the nock ends of the string is optimal? Should you have them spaced evenly or offset? What's the optimal spacing between them? How far from the string should they be set? .... and on and on and on...
> 
> I am not the type of person who welcomes an opportunity to put even more accessories on an already simple tool. To those who are - good luck answering all the questions above. As if you didn't have enough things on your bow to worry about already.


John,

I have not seen a Ion-X up close but I'm assuming they followed what was used on the RX/HPX and that being a 1/2" - 20 Limb Bolt and the hole in the back side is drilled and tapped for a 5/16 -24 thread for stabilizer or accessory usage. The set screw at least on my HPX must be unscrewed by removing the limb bolt towards the back of the bow. 


Slightly off topic here....

I know this is targeted for the Ion-X, but the funny thing is that on my HPX, only the bottom limb bolt is tapped. I'm not sure if that has always been the case with the RX/HPX??? So if this is standard, anyone wanting this on a RX/HPX will need to get the top hole tapped, assuming that it is drilled at the correct size.


----------



## martinkartin

My HPX has the bottom tapped for 5/16-24 accessory so assumption would be that the top would be the same thread? I remember seeing Aida Roman and Jacob Wukie using their HPX's with a accessory attached to the top hole.


----------



## limbwalker

w8lon said:


> We had a Super Rest failure today on my daughters bow when the support broke off. Guess they just don't last forever as it was salvaged from one of my TD4's from 1990. Perhaps the plastic became brittle after 24 years!


Okay, this made me laugh. 24 years!?! wow.


----------



## Bob Furman

martinkartin said:


> My HPX has the bottom tapped for 5/16-24 accessory so assumption would be that the top would be the same thread? I remember seeing Aida Roman and Jacob Wukie using their HPX's with a accessory attached to the top hole.


Martin,

Is your top hole threaded?


----------



## caspian

limbwalker said:


> They are put in the position of either using something they would rather not use, or having to answer difficult questions from other archers when they decide not to use it.


That's when the speeches start about how it didn't work _for them_ - but that it's still a good product.


----------



## martinkartin

Bob, the top is not threaded on my HPX. I would think it would be fairly simple to get that threaded if I decide to get my hands on a stealth shot. Lancaster is pricing them just shy of $100 so its theres any good feed back on them then it might be fun to try it out.


----------



## limbwalker

Maybe they are just what Brady needs to find those last 7 or 8 points though.


----------



## caspian

perhaps it is, in which case we're back to endless speculation about whether the results would have been achievable otherwise, or whether configuration x was optimal, versus whether it (or any variation) would mean a point of improvement for the rest of us.

rereading the thread, I can't help but think that the FPS improvement is inconsequential. most of (if any) improvement would come from archers with suboptimal hand position torquing the riser before the arrow separates from the string?

even then the improvement would need to be based not on optimisation, but on ability to counter the lack of repeatability caused by it. Michele is a classic example of how wrong can be right with inhuman consistency!


----------



## Joe T

A similar concept from Fivics which doesn't require any bushings/tapping.


----------



## K31Scout

That's right where you don't want added weight on the limb and would probably cost more than a few fps.


----------



## scoobert

K31Scout said:


> That's right where you don't want added weight on the limb and would probably cost more than a few fps.


True, but the Fivics user will be safe from indoor brush; not so for the Hoyt shooter. 

For all but a very few shooters, this looks like a solution in search of a problem and not an advance for the sport. I'd love to be proven wrong.


----------



## limbwalker

scoobert, I believe you are correct, but would also love to be proved wrong on this as well. Perhaps we'll see. Again, WWBD? 

The Fivics solution is interesting, but seemingly less effective since it's so much further from the arrow nock? Indoors, losing speed is not an issue, so perhaps that was what the application they were after?

If these are solutions in search of a problem, they certainly aren't the first to come around in the sport of target archery, nor will they be the last.


----------



## scoobert

If string stoppers help elite recurve shooters get extra points, it's curious that they weren't adopted years ago. As you point out, limbwalker, we see gadgets introduced all the time and few are truly game changers. If this technology helps develop something that lets kids dry fire their bows all day or use a wider range of arrows, I say 'thank you' to the people who subsidized the next innovation. I hope you got your money's worth and I'm grateful for the R&D to build better products here in the USA.


----------



## icehaven

this is only one picture and one event, but it looks like Brady isn't using them at this particular moment.

http://worldarchery.smugmug.com/IWC...79746_thp9pQ#!i=3064238775&k=cBmj8Fv&lb=1&s=A


meanwhile, Jake is

http://worldarchery.smugmug.com/IWC...79746_thp9pQ#!i=3064239300&k=9rkrT38&lb=1&s=A


please correct me if those are not the people I think they are.


----------



## martinkartin

One of my favourite archers is using the Stealth Shot this weekend. Great to see him install them on an HPX. Great come back game from RVDV!!


----------



## Basilios

Interesting to see if they make the stealth shot for the hpx or if he added the threads to his riser to make it fit. 

Also what are the glasses he's wearing? I don't remember him wearing glasses before.


----------



## icehaven

Basilios said:


> Interesting to see if they make the stealth shot for the hpx or if he added the threads to his riser to make it fit.
> 
> Also what are the glasses he's wearing? I don't remember him wearing glasses before.



He's wearing the Outlaw X by Pilla. http://pillastore.com/Archery_c9.htm


----------



## limbwalker

Yes, a win for Rick, using the string stoppers. Good for him. However a very out-of-the-ordinary "8" for Brady in the final end will help his opponent a lot more than a pair of string stops will.


----------



## GBUSA

A whole bunch of talent, some string stoppers and $500 dollar archery glasses did the trick.
I noticed Rick put his bow down a bunch but never his glasses. I mean after all, how often does someone accidentally sit on your expensive bow, right!

Now if only Brady had upped the anti with the $1,500 dollar versions he might not have dropped that 8.


GB


----------



## caspian

absolutely - I can't see how anyone could possibly expect to win wearing only $500 glasses.


----------



## midwayarcherywi

Look who is shooting with a string stop!
http://www.telegram.com/article/20140222/NEWS/302229858/1116?app=noRedirect

Looks like an independent thinker thinks there is something meritorious of the product.


----------



## Warbow

midwayarcherywi said:


> Look who is shooting with a string stop!
> http://www.telegram.com/article/20140222/NEWS/302229858/1116?app=noRedirect
> 
> Looks like an independent thinker thinks there is something meritorious of the product.


Indeed, the link is to a Saturday, February 22, 2014 article with a photo of Butch shooting with string stops at the East Region USA Archery Indoor National Championship.

As John notes in addition to WWBD, "time will tell." 

I'm confident John will follow the sound evidence. And that can take time. Folks are trying out the newest toy from Hoyt, one that makes pretty modest claims yet is a pretty major addition to the bow and bow balance - and one slip, if either of the string stoppers touches the string, you could be DQed. 

As with any fad, it will take some time for the string stoppers to shake out, to see if they are fad or function.


----------



## midwayarcherywi

Umm, I made no mention of John and I suppose we'll all do what we feel is best for our own circumstances.


----------



## Warbow

midwayarcherywi said:


> Umm, I made no mention of John and I suppose we'll all do what we feel is best for our own circumstances.


Oh, please...


----------



## midwayarcherywi

Listen, I'm a string stop skeptic. You can oh please all you want but my intent was not to meddle with John's skepticism, I share it. Now you can carry on arguing with yourself. I'm done.


----------



## lksseven

Butch is shooting a Formula riser in the article, too, isn't he?


----------



## scoobert

W&W hypes "string follow-through" as a great indicator of riser performance. Stops are one way of dismissing follow-through. If Hoyt was sensitive about follow-through science, string stops would basically mask any performance issues (it's not uncommon. 1 out of 5). If, on the other hand, follow-through is not terribly useful and stops become popular, what does W&W do? Do they sell string stops and scrap those claims?


----------



## gairsz

What are the scores telling us. Wins don't mean anything if the same people are winning. Are their average tournament scores going up with the stealth shot, staying the same, or going down? If brady is winning, and he uses the stealth shot and is still winning what does that tell us? By the end of this year we will have more info on whether it works or not.

The only way anyone can tell if it will work for them is to spend the money and try it. If it doesn't work for you then put in the pile with the rest of the stuff that didn't work.

Gary


----------



## caspian

lksseven said:


> Butch is shooting a Formula riser in the article, too, isn't he?


he is, and note the weights on the bottom stopper too.


----------



## Rick McKinney

I would guess that any top archer will try these. I did on my Nxpert W&W riser this weekend. Didn't notice any performance difference but I will give it another try to make sure. The "causal" affect is interesting and makes sense. However, top archers should test it and find out if it works. They do not want to be disadvantaged on the line. If it doesn't work but doesn't cause you to loose points, then paid staff shooters will use it and promote it. Why not!  

My findings were that the bow did feel similar to W&W's carbon risers. More of a solid "thump" to the shot and no vibration. However, most of the reaction is after the shot. It did cause the bow to react differently since the balance had changed. It would require the archer to move their stabilizer weights around to get the balance they are looking for. The real test will be outdoors when everything gets more critical. I am looking forward to seeing how they perform at the AZ Cup.

As for the explanation of why it works...well...I will do my own testing.


----------



## limbwalker

midwayarcherywi said:


> Look who is shooting with a string stop!
> http://www.telegram.com/article/20140222/NEWS/302229858/1116?app=noRedirect
> 
> Looks like an independent thinker thinks there is something meritorious of the product.


Looks like someone landed a new contract. 

And I 2nd what Rick said.


----------



## Apollon

GBUSA said:


> A whole bunch of talent, some string stoppers and $500 dollar archery glasses did the trick.


Remove the string stoppers from your list - only talent and $500 dollar glasses are needed to become world champion :teeth:


----------



## TargetOz

Rick McKinney said:


> I would guess that any top archer will try these. I did on my Nxpert W&W riser this weekend. Didn't notice any performance difference but I will give it another try to make sure. The "causal" affect is interesting and makes sense. However, top archers should test it and find out if it works. They do not want to be disadvantaged on the line. If it doesn't work but doesn't cause you to loose points, then paid staff shooters will use it and promote it. Why not!
> 
> My findings were that the bow did feel similar to W&W's carbon risers. More of a solid "thump" to the shot and no vibration. However, most of the reaction is after the shot. It did cause the bow to react differently since the balance had changed. It would require the archer to move their stabilizer weights around to get the balance they are looking for. The real test will be outdoors when everything gets more critical. I am looking forward to seeing how they perform at the AZ Cup.
> 
> As for the explanation of why it works...well...I will do my own testing.


Hi Rick, have you had a chance to do any testing with these stoppers yet?


----------



## limbwalker

TargetOz said:


> Hi Rick, have you had a chance to do any testing with these stoppers yet?


Rick has recently chosen to leave the forum.


----------



## TargetOz

limbwalker said:


> Rick has recently chosen to leave the forum.


Oh ok. Thanks for that. Have you had a chance to use them limbwalker??


----------



## limbwalker

Haven't tried them. I'm not shooting recurve at the moment (just compound and barebow so far this year). I had a good discussion with a coach yesterday about them and I'm still trying to work out the physics in my own mind as to whether they might be something that could make a difference, or if they are just wishful thinking by a company trying to move product... Not sure.

I'm not a professional archer like Jake or some of the other pro staff, so my approach to things like this is to usually sit back and see if those archer's scores see a sudden improvement over what they were shooting before the new item. 

That's the beautiful thing about this sport as it relates to new products. The evidence (scores) is very hard to hide from the consumer.

But I am still watching with interest and could be persuaded either way. I think they have potential, but so did so many other "innovative" archery inventions over the past 50 years.

John


----------



## TomG

John, 

What would be your take if this product will not affect scores either way but creates a different reaction that is pleasant to many archers?


----------



## K31Scout

TomG said:


> John,
> 
> What would be your take if this product will not affect scores either way but creates a different reaction that is pleasant to many archers?


In my view it would come down to _is the pleasantness worth $100_? People ditch risers that are too stiff all the time that rattle their elbows and will spend a lot of money to get a better shot feeling.


----------



## limbwalker

Tom, as K31 says, it just would come down to whether it was worth it to that individual.

Also, I'm not buying the claims that there is no string wear at the stoppers. I've seen stoppers on compounds for a decade or more, and they all required extra serving at the stopper locations to prevent excessive string wear. That is something that time will tell, but if it is the case, then the extra weight of that serving, along with the hassle of maintaining it (and whether it's even fita legal or not) is another issue to consider. Then you have the possibility of them coming loose during a competition, and the question of where exactly they should be placed, etc. 

I'm a "keep it simple" kind of guy - so to me these would have to show quite a bit of difference to make them worth the trouble, and potential problems they could offer. Kinda like spin wings. They are worth the extra hassle to some, but to others, they are not.

Same sort of question here, I think.

John


----------



## chrstphr

one of my JOAD kids went up to Jake at Vegas and asked him if he thought the stealth shot dampener was something she should add to her bow. ( she is a big fan of him and had him sign her limbs last year).

She told me he was rude and snapped at her that he wouldnt be shooting it if it wasnt. 

She then told me she asked because she wanted to know if it was truly something she needed or if he was just being paid by Hoyt to shoot it. 

Perhaps he has had much flack about it and was testy? 

Chris


----------



## Arsi

limbwalker said:


> Also, I'm not buying the claims that there is no string wear at the stoppers. I've seen stoppers on compounds for a decade or more, and they all required extra serving at the stopper locations to prevent excessive string wear. That is something that time will tell, but if it is the case, then the extra weight of that serving, along with the hassle of maintaining it (and whether it's even fita legal or not) is another issue to consider. Then you have the possibility of them coming loose during a competition, and the question of where exactly they should be placed, etc.


Is the additional serving not legal? Its not in the sightline of the archer but im no rulebook expert.



straat said:


> A recurve bowstring is only allowed to have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers. You cannot add two more.
> 
> 
> 
> 11.1.2. A bowstring of any number of strands.
> 11.1.2.1. Which may be of different colours and of the material chosen for the purpose. It may have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers, a nocking point to which may be added serving(s) to fit the arrow nock as necessary, and, to locate this point, one or two nock locators may be positioned. At each end of the bowstring there is a loop which is placed in the string nocks of the bow when braced. In addition one attachment is permitted on the string to serve as a lip or nose mark. The serving on the string shall not end within the athlete’s vision at full draw. The bowstring shall not in any way assist aiming through the use of a peephole, marking, or any other means.
Click to expand...

This doesnt read anything about additional serving anywhere else. Just says the serving cant get into your vision at full draw.


----------



## limbwalker

> It may have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers,


It only mentions a centre serving, not any additional serving. It's the center serving that cannot extend to within the archer's view.

One could very well interpret this to mean no additional serving is allowed, and may possibly be the reason we are being told no additional protective serving is necessary - because it is not legal. WA should weigh in on this, and will surely need to, as archer's strings wear at the stopper positions and they begin to address that wear with additional serving.


----------



## Chinese Tea

11.1.2. A bowstring of any number of strands.
11.1.2.1. Which may be of different colours and of the material chosen for the purpose. It may have a centre serving to accommodate the drawing fingers, a nocking point to which may be added serving(s) to fit the arrow nock as necessary, and, to locate this point, one or two nock locators may be positioned. At each end of the bowstring there is a loop which is placed in the string nocks of the bow when braced. In addition one attachment is permitted on the string to serve as a lip or nose mark. *The serving on the string shall not end within the athlete’s vision at full draw.* The bowstring shall not in any way assist aiming through the use of a peephole, marking, or any other means.

^
Perhaps it would therefore be legal to have a single serving that extended past the archers vision at full draw. 

Based on the next sentence,

*The bowstring shall not in any way assist aiming through the use of a peephole, marking, or any other means.*

I would interpret the spirit of the rules to say that while the string serves as a horizontal visual reference point (unavoidable due to an archers shooting style), having the serving end within the archers vision would allow the string to serve as a vertical visual reference point as well (avoidable by having the string be of uniform diameter and without reference marks).


----------



## limbwalker

Surely we're just splitting hairs, but you know how some officials can be...

Some would interpret this:


> It may have a centre serving


 to mean that it can only have a center serving, and no additional servings. But then of course, it fails to mention any servings on the ends of the strings to...

I'm pretty sure we'll see a ruling on this once everyone's bowstrings start to fray and they get tired of replacing them.

I give it about 5 or 6 months.


----------



## lksseven

chrstphr said:


> one of my JOAD kids went up to Jake at Vegas and asked him if he thought the stealth shot dampener was something she should add to her bow. ( she is a big fan of him and had him sign her limbs last year).
> 
> *She told me he was rude and snapped at her* that he wouldnt be shooting it if it wasnt.
> 
> She then told me she asked because she wanted to know if it was truly something she needed or if he was just being paid by Hoyt to shoot it.
> 
> Perhaps he has had much flack about it and was testy?
> 
> Chris


Based upon previous observations over the years, not surprising to me. I'd be much more inclined to choose Jacob Wukie as my spokesman - this young man is a true gentleman, whether people are watching or not. So is Brady.


----------



## rookcaca

I like the stealth shots on my IonX


----------



## Warbow

lksseven said:


> Based upon previous observations over the years, not surprising to me. I'd be much more inclined to choose Jacob Wukie as my spokesman - this young man is a true gentleman, whether people are watching or not. So is Brady.


IIRC, Jake has mentioned in this forum, or implied, that he has non-disparagement clauses with his sponsors, so that even if he thought the product he was using added no value he couldn't and wouldn't say so.


----------



## lksseven

Warbow said:


> IIRC, Jake has mentioned in this forum, or implied, that he has non-disparagement clauses with his sponsors, so that even if he thought the product he was using added no value he couldn't and wouldn't say so.


Fine. But there's no excuse to be rude to a kid. Maybe the sponsors should have a 'no rudeness' clause, too.

As for the potential scenario of someone accepting payment for hawking a product that he/she knows to have no value ... I'd prefer to not consider that possibility deeply. I'll just say that contracts aren't the final arbiter of integrity.


----------



## Warbow

lksseven said:


> Fine. But there's no excuse to be rude to a kid. Maybe the sponsors should have a 'no rudeness' clause, too.
> 
> As for the potential scenario of someone accepting payment for hawking a product that he/she knows to have no value ... I'd prefer to not consider that possibility deeply. I'll just say that contracts aren't the final arbiter of integrity.


I didn't mean that as an excuse for rudeness, rather that it may be pointless to ask Jake if one of his sponsor's product works. But, it seems unlikely he'd use a product that he thinks hurts his performance, but use a product that makes no difference either way? That is a different matter.


----------



## Jeb-D.

They probably provide some back weight. Add string stops = remove v-bar?


----------



## chrstphr

I want to state that Jake Kamenski is an upstanding guy, and he has contacted me privately in regards to the encounter with my young JOAD archer. He will be contacting her to make things right as he had no idea anyone had felt that way. He is sending her a pair of his personally used Stealth shots and an apology. I think he has gone above and beyond to clear up any misunderstanding from the Vegas trade show and has shown why he is a great role model for our archery youth. 

Mr. Kamenski, you are a great guy, and i am proud to have my JOAD kids look up to you. 

Chris


----------



## Basilios

Good job on his part. Sometimes we make mistakes, at least he was able to make it right. 

I also agree that he is a great guy, he has answered questions that i have posted on his instagram account.


----------



## lksseven

Good for Jake! Kudos!


----------



## TargetOz

rookcaca said:


> I like the stealth shots on my IonX


Can you elaborate why you like them?


----------



## rookcaca

I like the shot reaction, bow jumps forward and there is no vibration.I have not shot the bow without them yet to see the difference but the bow is very quiet.

An additional benefit is it is really easy to tell if the brace height has changed while shooting.


----------



## theminoritydude

rookcaca said:


> I like the shot reaction, bow jumps forward and there is no vibration.I have not shot the bow without them yet to see the difference but the bow is very quiet.
> 
> An additional benefit is it is really easy to tell if the brace height has changed while shooting.


Did it help with your technique? You know, the reason why you practice the sport?


----------



## ghost_STi

The archery community is one of the closest knit communities i've been involved in, and the last I spoke with Kaminski, he seemed like a really down to earth guy. Maybe he was just having an off day and she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but of course does not excuse his behavior. What he's doing for your JOAD archer is proof of how the community looks out for each other.


----------



## lksseven

theminoritydude said:


> Did it help with your technique? You know, the reason why you practice the sport?


There are lots of reasons to practice/pursue archery. 

The repetitive, unprovoked snark is unbecoming (and, you know, not helpful).


----------



## limbwalker

lksseven said:


> There are lots of reasons to practice/pursue archery.
> 
> The repetitive, unprovoked snark is unbecoming (and, you know, not helpful).


Agreed.

Let's judge a piece of equipment on it's merits. Like I've always said, when I see a good archer suddenly improve their scores, then I pay attention. If see someone who is already winning events, keep winning events, that's not proof. However, scores don't lie. Esp. indoor scores. 

From a strictly engineering standpoint, these "should" have the potential for making a difference. Whether they do or not, is still yet to be seen. From where I sit, they had better add points for the extra risk of failure and maintenance one adds to a bow by installing them. Kinda like v-bars, are they worth the trouble?


----------



## theminoritydude

lksseven said:


> There are lots of reasons to practice/pursue archery.
> 
> The repetitive, unprovoked snark is unbecoming (and, you know, not helpful).


On the contrary, I think it is very helpful as a timely reminder that our obsession with adding more equipment is gradually eroding our ability to see our mistakes, and would choose to cover it up rather than strengthening our skill, the major factor that decides whether we rise or fall. If this were a hunting thread, things would be different of course.


----------



## limbwalker

Some practice this sport to refine their technique. In golf, they call that "playing swing" instead of "playing golf."


----------



## theminoritydude

I do not encourage the use of this device on the grounds that it provides little use in the improvement of the archers' execution of the shot. There are many equipment out there that cost a small fortune, but they provide the platform on which good execution is encouraged and reinforced. I do not deny that I see the stealth shot as a piece of equipment that enhances the quality of the shots, but it fails to address the issues with bad execution, akin to putting a band aid on an open wound around the lip instead of finding out why the anchor is taking chunks of your flesh. A razor blade is mostly much sharper than an axe, but we don't use it to chop wood.


----------



## Dacer

theminoritydude said:


> I do not encourage the use of this device on the grounds that it provides little use in the improvement of the archers' execution of the shot. There are many equipment out there that cost a small fortune, but they provide the platform on which good execution is encouraged and reinforced. I do not deny that I see the stealth shot as a piece of equipment that enhances the quality of the shots, but it fails to address the issues with bad execution, akin to putting a band aid on an open wound around the lip instead of finding out why the anchor is taking chunks of your flesh. A razor blade is mostly much sharper than an axe, but we don't use it to chop wood.



well - anonymously encouraging people to not use something is always a highly regarded opinion on the internet. If you feel that all the stuff we put on our bows is just bandaids then perhaps you would like traditional longbow shooting rather than Olympic Recurve? 

And the steath shot doesn't advertise that if fixes bad execution of the shot - so I'm not really sure why that is the point you are trying to use for your argument. Its a dampening system that also provides for a more consistent release point of the arrow from the string. 

Nothing more nothing less.


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## theminoritydude

Anonymously goes for pretty much half the people around here who has something to say, while we are not required by forum rules to reveal more than necessary, I doubt anyone here goes the extra mile to hide his or her identity, and I think that should suffice, and in itself allows participants their own discretion to ignore or blindly obey an opinion. I am sure you and most rational folks here are fully aware of that.

In truth, yes, I do enjoy some traditional archery. I'm going to Korea to try some traditional Korean archery at suwon this May,, and I'm sure I will have a lot of fun. Thanks for asking.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but some amendments to the WA rules regarding recurve had to be effected for this device. Olympic archery has been around for some time, and the rules have pretty much remained similar to when FITA was first setup, equipment has improved in quality and remained generally the same with respect to how they are used. When the rules regarding equipment was changed during the introduction of TEC for the Axis, no one bat an eyelid, and understandably so because it didn't dramatically change the function or utilization of the bow. It was an improvement . Stealth Shot however is a dramatically new piece of hardware on its own that determined the point of arrow separation almost independent of the archers execution. Why do we stop at this? Why don't we also have a stabilizer that determines the exact spot where the bow launches the arrow? You know, a bipod? What is there to stop the rules from changing again? At the end of the day, some people do it purely for the score, right?


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## Bob Furman

limbwalker said:


> Surely we're just splitting hairs, but you know how some officials can be...
> 
> Some would interpret this: to mean that it can only have a center serving, and no additional servings. But then of course, it fails to mention any servings on the ends of the strings to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure we'll see a ruling on this once everyone's bowstrings start to fray and they get tired of replacing them.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, I wonder if you can run the end servings down a few more inches????
Click to expand...


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## rharper

600 or so arrows through the bow, keep my strings waxed, and no discoloration or signs of wear on my string.


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## Warbow

Bob Furman said:


> Hmmm, I wonder if you can run the end servings down a few more inches????


I'm guessing that weight gain could cause you to loose the _very_ small gain in fps enabled by the stealth shot in the first place.


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## theminoritydude

rharper said:


> 600 or so arrows through the bow, keep my strings waxed, and no discoloration or signs of wear on my string.


That's because the contacts between the dampers and the string are not anywhere near the nocking point and the speed is probably about half that of the muzzle velocity, with about 20% of the total energy transferred to the arrow, and 70% redistributed throughout the system (the human body is one giant damper) as vibration and heat, leaving the 10% spread out over a relatively long period of time during which the string is allowed to gently cushion itself on the dampers.


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## Dom_Collis

Can you use it with any riser by enlignating the bolts in the back of the riser


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## Dacer

theminoritydude said:


> That's because the contacts between the dampers and the string are not anywhere near the nocking point and the speed is probably about half that of the muzzle velocity, with about 20% of the total energy transferred to the arrow, and 70% redistributed throughout the system (the human body is one giant damper) as vibration and heat, leaving the 10% spread out over a relatively long period of time during which the string is allowed to gently cushion itself on the dampers.


I was unaware my bow had a muzzle...

I agree that there isn't going to be an inconvenient amount of wear on the string given there are two dampers and where They are located.

However you really have no measured evidence for the percentages you are using.


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## theminoritydude

Dacer said:


> I was unaware my bow had a muzzle...
> 
> I agree that there isn't going to be an inconvenient amount of wear on the string given there are two dampers and where They are located.
> 
> However you really have no measured evidence for the percentages you are using.


That's because you really don't know me, probably didn't own a 1000fps consumer camera and have some free time, a calculator, some stationery and pieces of paper lying around. I'm sorry you couldn't find the muzzle on your bow. It's there, look for the muzzle flash on release.


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## theminoritydude

Dom_Collis said:


> Can you use it with any riser by enlignating the bolts in the back of the riser


I had the same thought too, but Hoyt encourages you to buy the Ion-X and change to using the formula system if you're not already on it.


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## gairsz

Sorry if this has already been asked. I was scrolling through the thread but got tired because it is so long. I understand that the string cannot touch the stops at brace height. If you are on the line and you see a shooter violating the rule, or in a OR match, what is the penalty to the archer?

Gary


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## theminoritydude

I would hesitate to bring penalty into the picture, I'm guessing it would be up to the judge on site to decide on a corrective measure rather than a punitive one. Unless of course the individual involved continues unabated and unwilling to comply with the rule.


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## limbwalker

gairsz said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked. I was scrolling through the thread but got tired because it is so long. I understand that the string cannot touch the stops at brace height. If you are on the line and you see a shooter violating the rule, or in a OR match, what is the penalty to the archer?
> 
> Gary


Whatever the judge who sees it, says it is.


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## archeryal

I think the issue of extra servings should not be an issue: the intent of the rule is to prevent additional help in aiming. I can't imagine this violating that principal. But those judges.. (OK, I'm one of them).
The sting cannot touch consistently touch anything other than the limb, if I recall the rule. I'd have to consult "the Bible" - we can also take a photo and pass the question up the chain of command and get a ruling, either from national or WA judges.


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## Falkryus

Today I shooted for the first time with Stealth Shots

ION-X
F4 Short 40#
BH at 8"
Shibuya RC 520

The Stealth Shot reduce limb vibration, but my sight at 70m went from 6 to 7 and thats something I don't really want because my sight at 90m is at 9 and I suppose that it will be at 10 and I'll have conflict with the pin sight aperture.

Anyways, I'll continue shooting the Stealth Shots for a few days and I'll post the results.


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## limbwalker

Thanks. We'd love to hear them from someone other than a sponsored archer.


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## bobnikon

Interesting that there have been a couple sets for sale already.

cheers


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## TargetOz

Falkryus said:


> Today I shooted for the first time with Stealth Shots
> 
> ION-X
> F4 Short 40#
> BH at 8"
> Shibuya RC 520
> 
> The Stealth Shot reduce limb vibration, but my sight at 70m went from 6 to 7 and thats something I don't really want because my sight at 90m is at 9 and I suppose that it will be at 10 and I'll have conflict with the pin sight aperture.
> 
> Anyways, I'll continue shooting the Stealth Shots for a few days and I'll post the results.


So technically speaking the arrows are slower at 70m?


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## gif

bobnikon said:


> Interesting that there have been a couple sets for sale already.
> 
> cheers


That and Jake's performance in the Shanghai ranking round doesn't bode well.


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## Falkryus

TargetOz said:


> So technically speaking the arrows are slower at 70m?


I'm not an pro but that's what happened to me, I'll test them on friday a little bit and on saturday I'll shoot a fita.

I'll be back soon.

I must say that today I was using for the first time a AAE KSL Gold Tab and I felt a little bit weird shooting.

EDIT:

In 30m the same history, my sight went from 1 to 1.5


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## TargetOz

Falkryus said:


> I'm not an pro but that's what happened to me, I'll test them on friday a little bit and on saturday I'll shoot a fita.
> 
> I'll be back soon.
> 
> I must say that today I was using for the first time a AAE KSL Gold Tab and I felt a little bit weird shooting.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> In 30m the same history, my sight went from 1 to 1.5


Ive got both aae elite and gold, just couldnt get used to the gold so I modified the elite with the Gold parts n so far so good. Looking forward to more stealth results.


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## Falkryus

TargetOz said:


> Ive got both aae elite and gold, just couldnt get used to the gold so I modified the elite with the Gold parts n so far so good. Looking forward to more stealth results.


I have used a AAE Elite for a year but I decide to try the Gold because of its weight, I hope it can help me when I realease with my jumping hand problem.


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## TomG

Falkryus said:


> I must say that today I was using for the first time a AAE KSL Gold Tab and I felt a little bit weird shooting.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> In 30m the same history, my sight went from 1 to 1.5


The KSL gold tab has a lower shelf than the elite tab and will lower your sight marks. It happened to me last year when I made the switch.

TomG


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## Bob Furman

Dom_Collis said:


> Can you use it with any riser by enlignating the bolts in the back of the riser



enlignating???? No such word found....Care to elaborate?


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## Dom_Collis

Elongate the limb bolts in the riser and thread the stealth shot through the bolt and then back into the riser?


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## limbwalker

Again, when I see Brady using them in a serious competition, and he does well, then I'll take notice.

He and a very few other archers are in that rare group of full-time professionals who can truly take or leave whatever their sponsors offer them to use. If he decides to shoot a 5 year-old set of limbs and a riser that's no longer in production, what are they going to say to him? Really.


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## Falkryus

limbwalker said:


> Again, when I see Brady using them in a serious competition, and he does well, then I'll take notice.


Rick Van Der Ven is using them and finished first in Shanghai


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## limbwalker

Falkryus said:


> Rick Van Der Ven is using them and finished first in Shanghai


You pick your example, I'll pick mine. 

And you might want to check that placement too, although he did beat Brady. That much seems true.


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## Falkryus

limbwalker said:


> You pick your example, I'll pick mine.
> 
> And you might want to check that placement too, although he did beat Brady. That much seems true.


haha you have reason

I sound like a fan-boy ! Rick Van Der Ven is a great with or without them.


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## limbwalker

> Rick Van Der Ven is a great with or without them.


Yea, and he seems to have Brady's number right now too. Sometimes, that happens...

I just love the fact that he's shooting so well with HIS technique. Not something anyone in the U.S. would be taught right now, but it darn sure works for him, under pressure, when it counts. And that's all that really matters.

John


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## mdyan

I guess I'm not the only one that noticed that Rick Van Der Ven's technique is poor if you're going by-the-book...


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## erickatgta

mdyan said:


> I guess I'm not the only one that noticed that Rick Van Der Ven's technique is poor if you're going by-the-book...


cool looking gesture though...


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## limbwalker

mdyan said:


> I guess I'm not the only one that noticed that Rick Van Der Ven's technique is poor if you're going by-the-book...


Poor form = inconsistent form. That is all. He is very consistent. Therefore, his form is world class, regardless of how it may look to some.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo

Falkryus said:


> I'm not an pro but that's what happened to me, I'll test them on friday a little bit and on saturday I'll shoot a fita.
> 
> I'll be back soon.
> 
> *I must say that today I was using for the first time a AAE KSL Gold Tab and I felt a little bit weird shooting.*EDIT:
> 
> In 30m the same history, my sight went from 1 to 1.5


I bet any money THIS is the reason for dropping sight mark.......if you want to compare/review some product, do not do any other changes otherwise results have no meaning at all.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo

Falkryus said:


> Rick Van Der Ven is using them and finished first in Shanghai


Actually he was 28th.....no. 1 was teenager Sjef VAN DEN BERG .


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## theminoritydude

I watched him go head to head with Van der ven in an indoor event. The boy is good.


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## Falkryus

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> I bet any money THIS is the reason for dropping sight mark.......if you want to compare/review some product, do not do any other changes otherwise results have no meaning at all.


Ok

Since tommorow I have competition, today I'll shoot with the Elite Tab maybe in some moment of the practice I'll change tabs just to see what happens.


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## Falkryus

Falkryus said:


> Ok
> 
> Since tommorow I have competition, today I'll shoot with the Elite Tab maybe in some moment of the practice I'll change tabs just to see what happens.


Not sure if I can double post but anyways

Today I shooted again with Stealth Shot and my old tab, and yes the sight fall down because of both things, the new tab and Stealth shots

With old tab and Stealth Shots in 90m sight went down from 9 to 9.6 and I was hitting at 6 o'clock, the same history for 50m from 3 to 4.

Since Tommorow, the Archery Federation of Puerto Rico wants me to shoot a control to see how much points I'm shooting, I removed the Stealth Shots

If someone with more experience than me want to think about why the Sight went down

DW 40# with Short Limbs
DL 26.5" (I know I have shorts arms)
BH 8"
String 8125G 18 Strands


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## w8lon

Falkryus said:


> Not sure if I can double post but anyways
> 
> Today I shooted again with Stealth Shot and my old tab, and yes the sight fall down because of both things, the new tab and Stealth shots
> 
> 
> 
> DW 40# with Short Limbs
> DL 26.5" (I know I have shorts arms)
> BH 8"
> String 8125G 18 Strands


Just a thought, but don't change anything just before a competition, your brace height seems very low. Even with short limbs I would think that 8-3/8 to 8-7/8 would be the range of most 66" bows. Perhaps this may have something to do with your sight marks as well, low brace having reverse effect with stealth shot installed. They would quiet a low braced bow down however.


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## OCBrent

I'm shooting an ionX, and would like to dampen mine some more. I got to shoot the hoyt stealth shot for an end today, and it pretty much removes all post shot vibrations. 

If it were something that could be setup in less than a minute, I'd have gotten them. Setup looks more involved than that and I'm not sure if I want to deal with that. There are things that could be done to make the installation and management of it more "plug and play". I'm sure that would increase the mass of it, but I'd be willing to take that trade off.

Brent


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## theminoritydude

Falkryus said:


> Not sure if I can double post but anyways
> 
> Today I shooted again with Stealth Shot and my old tab, and yes the sight fall down because of both things, the new tab and Stealth shots
> 
> With old tab and Stealth Shots in 90m sight went down from 9 to 9.6 and I was hitting at 6 o'clock, the same history for 50m from 3 to 4.
> 
> Since Tommorow, the Archery Federation of Puerto Rico wants me to shoot a control to see how much points I'm shooting, I removed the Stealth Shots
> 
> If someone with more experience than me want to think about why the Sight went down
> 
> DW 40# with Short Limbs
> DL 26.5" (I know I have shorts arms)
> BH 8"
> String 8125G 18 Strands


Using sight marks as a gauge of speed can be misleading. I would suggest using a light gate pro chrono (or similar device) to directly measure the speed. 

Your brace height does seem a bit low.

Also, you do know that the Stealth Shot is not supposed to touch the string at brace, right? 

How many twists on your string? Something like, say, 30 twists? Do you use string wax?


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## Falkryus

Update for today

I went to the competition and I removed everything, I shooted 1,027/1400 my new personal record. I have been shooting since last april (1 year experience)

But the top 2 guys from my country shooted 1,23# with Stealth Shots. The Stealth Shots work for them, I'm not sure why but I must say that they have a Draw Length of a uncut X-10 compared to me that I only have a 26.5" one.



rharper said:


> 600 or so arrows through the bow, keep my strings waxed, and no discoloration or signs of wear on my string.


Their string was starting to show signs of wear after more than 600 arrows

I believe someone suggested using serving in the contact area, well these guy tried it and they said to me that adding the serving made the string slower.

Anyways I'll give them another try the next entire week and if the Stealth Shots don't work for me, I'll sell them back !!!!!!


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## gster123

I shoot between 1240 and 1270 with a 16 year old riser, no stealth shots, and old ACE stabs.

It's not equipment you need to worry about.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo

So 1 year later and even Rick Van Der Ven is not using them........ argument resolved I would say


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## Warbow

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> So 1 year later and even Rick Van Der Ven is not using them........ argument resolved I would say


Fad over? :dontknow:


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## limbwalker

Yup. 

I'm curious to see how much longer we'll see AAE Wav's on top competitor's arrows.


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## JMartin589

I don't know if this has been covered, but does the stealth shot fit on other risers? Does it just need to have bushings on the back of the riser?


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## keno190

JMartin589 said:


> I don't know if this has been covered, but does the stealth shot fit on other risers? Does it just need to have bushings on the back of the riser?


I want to know this as well!


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## Kendric_Hubbard

The stealth shots will fit the hpx if you tap the top hole for the tiller locking screw. The screw on the Stealth shots are 5/16 32


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## limbwalker

If one is comfortable tapping their riser, accessories like the stealth shots can easily be installed in just about any riser. 

Folks have been installing string stops on recurves for many years before Hoyt ever put them on their target bows. I know quite a few bowhunters who have them on their recurves. Probably for as long as string stops have been around.


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## Kendric_Hubbard

The only problem, limbwalker, is the stealth shots specifically are at an angle, and you have to use angled washers to get them to work on the non ion x models.


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## limbwalker

Where there is a will, there's a way. 

ACE Hardware is my second-most favorite archery store.


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## OCBrent

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> The only problem, limbwalker, is the stealth shots specifically are at an angle, and you have to use angled washers to get them to work on the non ion x models.


I've talked to people that have just taken their Stealth Shot and just Sanded / Grinded it to match their Riser. So, no offset washer needed. One less thing to worry about when packing / unpacking would be nice.

When I asked if they had any "Scribeing" tips to do that, they just said they "eyeballed" it. Take a little off with the Sander, check it, take a little more off, ... 
Not something I'd get right the first time probably, but if everyone is taking them off their bows, there should be a bunch of cheap extras to work with. 

Brent


----------

