# AAE Wav's set to replace spin wings?



## John Hall

I may try these again once I get the recommended AAE glue. But they were falling off my Carbon One's at a 3D tournament (4 arrows) this past weekend so I'm back on Spin Wings for now. I'm trying the VLD instead of the Elite to help get to 90m for FITA.

John


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## rsarns

Ok so I ordered some for my ACE's for the recurve.... and was sititng here getting ready to fletch up sme ACE's for my compound (fnger shooter NFAA BH class), and said why not... So fletched up six of my 370 ACE's and tried them out today. I only shot ou to 60 yards, and it is windy, about 15-20 coming cross wind left to right. Shot them again at home out to 50 and also shot my ones with 3" NAP quickspins. I havew to say I grouped better with the WAV vanes. The ones on my 430's for my recurve (BB - so full length) shot extremely well. Now I cannot do the comparison like John did since I am eli vane fletching incapable (I have tried...LOL), but after ease of fletching and good groups I wll be ordering more. So far so good.


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## tunedlow

im going to try these on my ACCs. how much offset would you recommend?


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## Bigjono

I think I will try these, what do they weigh each?


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## Cephas

2 grains ea. I believe.


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## Bigjono

Wow, they really could replace my 2" Razr feathers then.


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## rsarns

I went with a 2 deg offset.


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## Blades

Im really tempted to try these out. I just got new arrows and switched to spin wings when this outdoor season started. They fly great, but the durability is a bit of a bummer. Still not 100% sure i have the best tune, as some time i get tears for no apparent reason. 

Limbwalker, when in an archers career would you say someone is ready for spin wings or eli vanes? When would having these vanes (assuming the spin wings do help to get greater accuracy at long distances) be a detriment and someone should "graduate" to spin wings. I usually hold red or better at 70m, but not sure if switching to a more durable vane like these wav's would really make a difference one way or the other accuracy wise. Durability is an issue with spin wings and i try to make the most out of my purchases. Tournaments are expensive for college kids, so i need to save where i can!


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## midwayarcherywi

If you can hold red or better at 70m, you're better than the majority of archers. Spin Wings can help, especially if you are shooting lighter poundage limbs.


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## Viper1

John, et al -

Is there any real difference between the AAE Wavs and the Easton Tite-Flight vanes? (Other than one being shield and the other parabolic?)
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/easton-tite-flight-vanes.html
I've used these with pretty good luck.

Thanks

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker

Spin wings are one fletching solution. They are the lightest possible fletching you can use and have proven themselves over and over again in the most competitive environments in the world. But there are drawbacks. They are very fragile and unforgiving of contact. Their light weight allows for a weak dynamic spine of the arrow which is both good and bad. Good in the sense that the tail end can clear the rest and bad in that you need to use a stiffer spined arrow than you would for a heavier fletch, which results in just as heavy a total arrow weight as you would use with vanes, for example. So the light weight of the spin wings doesn't always mean a lighter overall arrow.

Plastic vanes have been used with great effect by many recurve archers, but rarely show up on the podium in Olympic or world championships. If more world class archers used plastic vanes, then you'd see more podium positions won with those, but it rarely happens. 

I have used both flex-fletch and AAE Plastifletch Max vanes to shoot >330 in competition (both times at Olympic trials events) but my top outdoor scores have come with Elivanes, including a 341 opening 36-arrow pass during matchplay in the April trials event for the 2012 team. A month later, I set two state fita field records with those same arrows, so my confidence in the Elivanes is higher than any other fletching I've used. 

I was very surprised how light the AAE Wav vanes were. They are actually a hair lighter than the Gas Pro vanes I tested recently. I've never seen a plastic vane that was lighter than a mylar vane. So that's encouraging. They are surely more durable and will require less maintenance. So that's a plus as well. Will they group better than spin wings or Elivanes? Only time will tell. I think we will know by the end of this season whether they will be replacing spin wings on the world stage.

Blades, to try and answer your question - I saw no difference in my training scores back in 2004 between spin wings and plastic vanes. I needed heavier fletching to tune the arrows I had, so I tried some flex-fletch parabolic vanes and ended up shooting those at the trials and in Athens. My opening 36 arrows at the '04 trials, with those vanes, was a 332, so I didn't feel I was at a disadvantage versus those who were using spin wings. This past Saturday, I shot a 320 at 50 meters with the new AAE vane, and considering the wind and lack of preparation, I'd say the vanes did their job just fine. 

At the highest levels of competition, not only the type of vane, but also the size and angle of attachment should be tested as thoroughly as possible. But for recreational archers, I think there are more important things to worry about.

John


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## limbwalker

And now that gt has seen my hand, surely he will feel obliged to correct me... (we can only hope  )

Eerie how silent he's been on this one though.


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## elarock

My scale might not be completely spot-on, but i was getting 1.5-1.7 gr for the Wavs as opposed to 3-3.2 gr for 2" Plastifletch Max.


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## InKYfromSD

I wonder why lancaster is now out of the bright green as well as the white WAVs??? Did someone say something about them? :secret:

On a side note: How well do the Eli vanes withstand being packed in the gold with the WAVs? I had some K-spins and they didn't play well with other arrows already in the target.


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## rsarns

Shooting out to 101 yrds today in preperation for Redding... I really like the performance I am getting out of thse WAV vanes.


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## Bigjono

Do they only stay on with AAE glue or is that a myth?


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## c-lo

Bigjono said:


> Do they only stay on with AAE glue or is that a myth?


I'd say myth as I used Platinum fletch-tite I already had on Medallion XR's and they're holding just fine.


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## edgerat

GoldTip Tip Grip seems to do just fine


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## LittleJP

They might replace my gas-pros. I ordered my own pack not too long ago. With them being almost half the price, and gas pros tearing fairly frequently due to my shooting them through targets, I might just start using them if they group better.


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## limbwalker

Shooting again tonight, I'm not sure the Wav's aren't grouping better and drifting less than my Elivanes... Very impressive. I was shooting in top form tonight and I know what a good group looks like with my Elivanes. The groups I was getting from the Wav's were at least that good. 

So far, they are holding their own with the best arrows I've ever assembled.


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## FlyingWatchmake

John, out of interest, all else being equal what difference did you find between spin wings/ elivanes/ gas pro that made the spin wings drop out of the picture? (Elivanes and gas pro aren't very common over this side of the world) 

Tom


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## Efish1590

Does anybody have experience with them out of a compound?
I shoot 60lbs with a 30.5" DL. 
I am a big fan of spin wings. I use the 5" hunter vanes on my 2315s. 
Have shot great scores and made the collegiate world team with the tite flights on my 400 ACEs. 
Just got a couple sets of x10 410s to play with and am looking for options. 
One of the male recurves that made the team as well stated that under high speed cameras, the small spin wings (don't know exact length) fold up around the shaft out of a compound. More or less shooting a bareshaft so you aren't getting any steering power. 
What is your guys take on this? 
As well as the elivanes and wavs
Most of the Italian compounders were using Eli vanes on their protours or nano pros so I doubt that there is problem with them being shot out of a compound.
Thanks in advance


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## caspian

the only problem shooting spinnies out of a compound is the rate of repair required if shooting groups, and if shooting multi spot faces you're doing so at 18m so not only are they not an advantages, they are too small.

several well respected archers have tried it and gone screaming back to the vanes. the consensus is FFP187 or FF200 on carbons, run what you like on 2315s from 3" up.


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## limbwalker

FlyingWatchmake said:


> John, out of interest, all else being equal what difference did you find between spin wings/ elivanes/ gas pro that made the spin wings drop out of the picture? (Elivanes and gas pro aren't very common over this side of the world)
> 
> Tom


Tom I got tired of constantly repairing my fletchings. That's the main reason. When I increased the draw weight of my competition bow a few pounds back in early 2004, my 400 A/C/E's were tuning a hair weak, so I replaced the spin wings with flex-fletch vanes to add about 7-8 grains to the tail end of the arrow to get the tune I needed. That was the excuse I was looking for to try a lower maintenance fletching solution at the time, and from my testing, my scores didn't suffer at all. I essentially shot the same scores with spin wings and the flex fletch vanes during that season. 

I was getting clearance issues with the heavy vanes on my Nano Pro's (before the new variable spine NP's) so I went back to mylar vanes to help achieve the clearance I needed, and that's when I started using the Elivanes - knowing they would be more durable than the spin wings. And the most certainly are. 

At this point, it's really a toss-up for me between the Elivane S3's and these AAE Wav's, but I've only had the chance to shoot a few hundred arrows with them so far. When I get time, I may go back and re-fletch the Gas-pro vanes at more of an offset like Vittorio suggested, and see whether they group better. But I'm pretty happy with what I have now.

John


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## rsarns

Efish1590 said:


> Does anybody have experience with them out of a compound?
> I shoot 60lbs with a 30.5" DL.
> I am a big fan of spin wings. I use the 5" hunter vanes on my 2315s.
> Have shot great scores and made the collegiate world team with the tite flights on my 400 ACEs.
> Just got a couple sets of x10 410s to play with and am looking for options.
> One of the male recurves that made the team as well stated that under high speed cameras, the small spin wings (don't know exact length) fold up around the shaft out of a compound. More or less shooting a bareshaft so you aren't getting any steering power.
> What is your guys take on this?
> As well as the elivanes and wavs
> Most of the Italian compounders were using Eli vanes on their protours or nano pros so I doubt that there is problem with them being shot out of a compound.
> Thanks in advance


I am shooting them on my ACE370's right now. The WAV vanes are performing great. I am shootng out to 101 yards in preperation for Redding with them. I am a finger BB compound guy, shooting 60# Maitland X Factor. I have them fletched at 2 degree offset.


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## LittleJP

limbwalker said:


> Tom I got tired of constantly repairing my fletchings. That's the main reason. When I increased the draw weight of my competition bow a few pounds back in early 2004, my 400 A/C/E's were tuning a hair weak, so I replaced the spin wings with flex-fletch vanes to add about 7-8 grains to the tail end of the arrow to get the tune I needed. That was the excuse I was looking for to try a lower maintenance fletching solution at the time, and from my testing, my scores didn't suffer at all. I essentially shot the same scores with spin wings and the flex fletch vanes during that season.
> 
> I was getting clearance issues with the heavy vanes on my Nano Pro's (before the new variable spine NP's) so I went back to mylar vanes to help achieve the clearance I needed, and that's when I started using the Elivanes - knowing they would be more durable than the spin wings. And the most certainly are.
> 
> At this point, it's really a toss-up for me between the Elivane S3's and these AAE Wav's, but I've only had the chance to shoot a few hundred arrows with them so far. When I get time, I may go back and re-fletch the Gas-pro vanes at more of an offset like Vittorio suggested, and see whether they group better. But I'm pretty happy with what I have now.
> 
> John


Are your elivanes fletched offset as well?


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## limbwalker

My Elivanes are fletched straight, but they are S3's which already create quite a bit of drag. I haven't done the tests, but I suspect a P3 with a lot of offset is probably a lot like an S3 fletched straight.


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## John Hall

*Bohning Impulse Tower jig for WAV fletching?*

I'm thinking that the new Bohning Impulse Tower fletching jig might work well with the WAV vanes since they are thin like the Impulse vanes. 

http://www.bohning.com/store/impulse-tower-fletching-jig.html

I have both vanes and neither worked well in the Arizona EZ Fletch jigs (carbon or mini).
If anybody has a Bohning Tower jig and is looking to use WAV's... maybe you could get the Impulse replacement Arms ($12) and let us know if it works. 

John


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## limbwalker

I'm not having any problems fletching them with my Bitz. Just have to take care to set the angles for good contact. I think a helical clamp will be helpful for this.

gt's silence on these vanes is deafening...Would love to hear his views, particularly since he's a veteran vane shooter with an OR.

John


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## John Hall

Yeah, my Bohning Pro straight with offset worked fine for one-at-a-time fletching on Carbon Ones. But I have to admit that those "three-banger" tower jigs (like EZ Fletch) are great for getting the job done quickly. Although that's probably because I'm overly-conservative about letting the glue set for each vane when doing single vanes. BTW, I've never seen/inspected a helical-capable jig... does the clamp account for the curve of the shaft due to the helical/diagonal? I found that my straight clamp can only give a degree or two of offset before the ends of the vane no long make good contact with the shaft when clamped.

John


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## elarock

John Hall said:


> I'm thinking that the new Bohning Impulse Tower fletching jig might work well with the WAV vanes since they are thin like the Impulse vanes.
> 
> http://www.bohning.com/store/impulse-tower-fletching-jig.html
> 
> I have both vanes and neither worked well in the Arizona EZ Fletch jigs (carbon or mini).
> If anybody has a Bohning Tower jig and is looking to use WAV's... maybe you could get the Impulse replacement Arms ($12) and let us know if it works.
> 
> John


While waiting for my new jig (clamp), I thought I'd see if I could modify my EZ Fletch to work with the skinny Wavs since it just sits unused now. I used electric tape in the grooves of the EZF to narrow the openings. It seems to have worked pretty well (with some initial fidgeting). 

I used three layers in all..two on one side and one on the other side of the opening. I used fletch tape and used Loctite Ultra Gel for the front and back of the vanes to lock them in. It worked pretty well I think. Fletch job was clean and neat and with the EZF Mini, it put a good amount of helical (6°?..I might be wrong on that) on a relatively skinny shaft (CX Medallion XRs). Added benefit..three fletches at one time! 

Anyway, just wanted to share. Might be a good DIY if funds don't allow a brand new Bitz.


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## massman

Started fletching some McKinneyII's last evening. WOW is this base small. Hard on my aging eyes. I'm using the AAE gel Cyno product. Really holds. Excess can easily be wiped off of the shaft/vane joint with a dry Kleinex. Works well with a Bitz, straight clamp with slight offset. I choose the YELLOW vane with black Beiter pin nocks. 

Regards,

Tom


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## bhmojo22

Hi, 
I recently picked up some of the new wav vanes at the Arizona Cup where AAE had a booth. I have been shooting spin wing vanes until this time but am getting tired of re-fletching all the time. I am shooting an old Elan riser with Hoyt Carbon Foam limbs at 42#, +- 26 1/2" draw and ACE 720 shafts. I purchase all the AAE products including the Max Bond shaft cleaner, and Max Bond glue. 
I have fletched both straight and right helical with my Bitzb jig. Straight fletch was with 0 offset. Right helical cant tell you the offset, but i jsut set until the clamp laid the vane tight to the shaft. 
So far, the straight fletched arrows seem to be grouping better than the helical. I dont know if this makes sense except my confidence level is higher with the straight.
In the early going, I believe these wavs are shooting tighter groups than the spin wings. This is good news to me because these vanes are definitely going to last longer than the spins. 
Gonna give them a try in a local 900 Fita this next weekend.


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## limbwalker

Talked to Jake K. at the TX Shootout about how he has his set up and took a quick look at them. His are just a little offset to the left. Not really all that much. He said he's shot them straight too, and they still group pretty good. But he's thinking just a little bit of offset is all these vanes need to group well. Just enough to get them spinning.

With my Bitz maxed out, and a helical jig (not sure how a person could get any more offset on such a small shaft and short vane unless they fletched them by hand) I think I'm getting about 3-4 degrees of offset. Mine are grouping very well. No noticeable difference between them and my Elivane S3's aside from the AAE's impacting higher at longer distances due to less drag. Even though my Nano Pro's that I fletched with WAV's are about 5 grains heavier (the shafts, not the vanes) they are impacting about 4" higher at 60 meters because of less drag. What's not to like about that?

I don't develop a lot of confidence in any piece of equipment until I've personally shot good scores in competition with it, but these WAV's seem to be poised to do just that. And with a 1st and 2nd place finish at TX Shootout in the men's recurve division (although one could argue that Brady and Jake both finished 1st and 2nd with spin wings plenty of times) they don't seem to be hurting their scores at all. 

This is good news for all of us who are looking for a low-maintenance alternative to spin wings without sacrificing weight or performance.

John


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## pencarrow

JFYI;
I weighed 3 AAE WAV vanes and 3 KurlyVanes with adhevise tape + lining tape, WAVs 5.302 gr. Kurlys 5.323 gr. I fletched 12 Cartel Triple 1000 shafts, 6 with WAVs and 6 with 45mm Kurlyvanes. At 70M the WAVs impacted 10-12 inches higher and the groups were tighter, 12 inches, good for me. For some reason I had to change the point weight for the WAVs from 95gr. to 115gr. to tune. I used a Bitz right helical no offset. I LIKE em.
Cheers
Fritz


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## tunedlow

Ive been shooting them outside for a little over a week and they're grouping a bit better than my spin wings so I'm very eager to see how I do in competition with them this summer. Anyone know how the AAE Wavs compare with Flex fletch vanes?


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## limbwalker

Fritz, that's what I found out... that the WAV's were actually lighter (once you factor in the double sided tape and end wrap tape) than my Elivanes. That really shocked me. 



> Anyone know how the AAE Wavs compare with Flex fletch vanes?


Yea, they actually stay on your arrows. LOL. 

Flex Fletch are great vanes - don't get me wrong. My arrows wore them from the spring of 2004 until AAE came out with their Plastifletch Max vanes. But they are a BEAR to get to stick on the dang arrow. The release agent that Flex Fletch uses just won't allow good adhesion unless you really, really clean the base of their vanes. Too much work for me and I was always losing vanes. So when AAE came out with the Plastifletch Max, I switched to those and used them through the first leg of the 2012 trials. 

Honestly, now that we have these WAV's to choose from, I don't see why a recurve archer would shoot any other plastic vane. Jury will be out for a while as to whether they will replace spin wings or other curled mylar vanes (Elivanes, Gas Pro, etc.) but in my mind, they've already replaced any other plastic vane that you glue on with a jig.

John


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## Serious Fun

Do people think the higher on the target groups with WAV is purely weight or is it combination of drag and weight? 
Chrono time?


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## InKYfromSD

limbwalker said:


> Fritz, that's what I found out... that the WAV's were actually lighter (once you factor in the double sided tape and end wrap tape) than my Elivanes.


Besides stiffening the shaft, do you think using 2 1/2 or 3" wraps negates the gains of using the WAV's?


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## pencarrow

Serious Fun said:


> Do people think the higher on the target groups with WAV is purely weight or is it combination of drag and weight?
> Chrono time?


I use 2 1/2" wraps on all of my arrows, so that is not a factor in my case. The wav's are only .021 gr lighter than the KurlyVanes, I think it is less drag, thus faster ( Ft per Sec ) with the AAE WAV's.
Fritz


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## limbwalker

InKYfromSD said:


> Besides stiffening the shaft, do you think using 2 1/2 or 3" wraps negates the gains of using the WAV's?


Yes. The whole point behind these is their light weight. If you double that with wraps, you're back to the weight of standard vanes.

Jake told me a neat trick to remove these (his were glued directly to the carbon like mine). He said he cuts them off with a knife as close to the carbon as possible, without cutting into the carbon. Then he soaks the nock end of the shaft in acetone for just a few seconds, then he can easily scrape off the foot of the vane with the edge of a dull knife without scraping off any carbon. Pretty slick. I'll have to try it when I need to replace some of these vanes. Actually, I just remembered I need to remove a few from my daughter's arrows (she likes the blue Gas Pro's better, and they both group the same for her, so guess which ones she gets?  ) So I'll give Jake's advice a try and see if I can remove the WAV's from her arrows without damaging the carbon at all. Will post results on that as I get a chance.

John


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## limbwalker

Just realized the FOC advantage gained by the WAV's - 

Even though my new arrows are 3 grains heavier total weight than my old ones, because the WAV's are lighter than my Elivane S3's, I am getting .5% better FOC (13.5% vs. 13%).


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## Jim C

Bigjono said:


> Do they only stay on with AAE glue or is that a myth?


I had two unmarked bottles of instant clue-one was AAE (in both cases the nozzles broke on the bottles they came in)

neither gave me good adhesion-I sent to Platinum and Flex Fletch (my favorite non instant glue) and both of those seemed to work fine

I am testing bohning impulse on one set of practice arrows (610 ACG gold with Beiter 12-2 heavy nocks and 120 grain points) vs the same set up with WAVs

right now the WAVs are flying better out of my 70" hoyt with 40 pound F7 limbs


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## bhmojo22

limbwalker said:


> But he's thinking just a little bit of offset is all these vanes need to group well. Just enough to get them spinning.
> John


This makes total sense, if the groups improve all the better. 
Regards,
Brian


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## edgerat

limbwalker said:


> Fritz, that's what I found out... that the WAV's were actually lighter (once you factor in the double sided tape and end wrap tape) than my Elivanes. That really shocked me.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, they actually stay on your arrows. LOL.
> 
> Flex Fletch are great vanes - don't get me wrong. My arrows wore them from the spring of 2004 until AAE came out with their Plastifletch Max vanes. But they are a BEAR to get to stick on the dang arrow. The release agent that Flex Fletch uses just won't allow good adhesion unless you really, really clean the base of their vanes. Too much work for me and I was always losing vanes. So when AAE came out with the Plastifletch Max, I switched to those and used them through the first leg of the 2012 trials.
> 
> Honestly, now that we have these WAV's to choose from, I don't see why a recurve archer would shoot any other plastic vane. Jury will be out for a while as to whether they will replace spin wings or other curled mylar vanes (Elivanes, Gas Pro, etc.) but in my mind, they've already replaced any other plastic vane that you glue on with a jig.
> 
> John


One swipe with acetone or alcohol on the FF vanes and they stick better than anything I have seen. Too much work is SpinWings or EliVanes....


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## John Hall

I too will be doing a head-to-head comparison of WAV vs. Spin Wing Elite... but from a more novice perspective. I assume that the Spin Wing Elites have much more drag than the WAV vanes so it will be interesting to see how they affect scores for somebody who perhaps needs more correction out of the bow. I don't think I'm the only newb who finds it tempting to try whatever new equipment/technique the top archers are using to shoot those amazing scores. But I definitely realize that what helps them may, in fact, actually cause my scores to drop if an advanced skill level is required to realize the benefit. I got some AAE Max Bond and the AAE cleaner so I'm hoping they stay on better this time.

John


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## limbwalker

edgerat said:


> One swipe with acetone or alcohol on the FF vanes and they stick better than anything I have seen. Too much work is SpinWings or EliVanes....


Been there, done that. Oftentimes, even ajax or sandpaper followed by acetone wasn't enough. I still had FF vanes fall off. Enough so that it really became frustrating.

I used to think Spin wings and Elivanes (i.e., fletching by hand with tape) was too much work until I got pretty proficient at it. Nowdays, I can fletch mylar vanes as quickly - on the field without a jig - as I can glue on plastic vanes. And there is an advantage to being able to repair just one mylar vane, by hand, during a break on the field without glue. To me, that's a real + on the side of the spin wings and elivanes.

John


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## rasyad

John, 

The Zip Strip from Norway is a great tool. It is a pricy and well made tool. With a little skill every last bit of glue can be removed and the carbon left smooth and clean. 

HERE

Rasyad


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## grantmac

rasyad said:


> John,
> 
> The Zip Strip from Norway is a great tool. It is a pricy and well made tool. With a little skill every last bit of glue can be removed and the carbon left smooth and clean.
> 
> HERE
> 
> Rasyad


Pricey and worth every penny. Never need acetone or sandpaper anymore.

-Grant


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## kshet26

I've used the Zip Strip and can honestly say that I get the same results using a pair of cat nail clippers. Fits perfectly for both aluminum and carbon shafts, cheap and readily available.


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## elarock

I have the Bohning fletch stripper which worked great on aluminums. I've switched to carbon shafts so it feels like the blade is still a little sharp, but if you're careful I think it works well. Like most things it's a glorified blade marketed for archery. I've been using Bohning fletch tape more and more and it's just so much easier. I feel like I get a super clean/neat fletch job (especially on the Wav's) and when something needs replacing you just roll off the adhesive. I'm only left to scrape the tiny bit of glue (I use Loctite Ultra Gel) that I used on the front and back of the vane. Easy.


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## thac0

limbwalker said:


> Talked to Jake K. at the TX Shootout about how he has his set up and took a quick look at them. His are just a little offset to the left. Not really all that much. He said he's shot them straight too, and they still group pretty good. But he's thinking just a little bit of offset is all these vanes need to group well. Just enough to get them spinning.
> John


And just to mix things up, Brady said he puts as much helical on them as he can get away with. 

I have shot mine with an offset so far and they fly and group well. I have some helical to test now. 

The arrows did randomly have an ever so slight fishtail. This undoubtedly has some form/release anecdotes. However, I did not see this with eli-vanes. Should I add a few grains to the back end?


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## hoytshooter15

I outta be getting my WAV vanes along with my new ACG's later this week. Dying to test them out. I keep hearing very good things about the WAV vane too. Jake Kaminski recommended them so they must work well.


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## Rchery4Lyfe

limbwalker said:


> Talked to Jake K. at the TX Shootout about how he has his set up and took a quick look at them. His are just a little offset to the left. Not really all that much. He said he's shot them straight too, and they still group pretty good. But he's thinking just a little bit of offset is all these vanes need to group well. Just enough to get them spinning.
> 
> With my Bitz maxed out, and a helical jig (not sure how a person could get any more offset on such a small shaft and short vane unless they fletched them by hand) I think I'm getting about 3-4 degrees of offset. Mine are grouping very well. No noticeable difference between them and my Elivane S3's aside from the AAE's impacting higher at longer distances due to less drag. Even though my Nano Pro's that I fletched with WAV's are about 5 grains heavier (the shafts, not the vanes) they are impacting about 4" higher at 60 meters because of less drag. What's not to like about that?
> 
> I don't develop a lot of confidence in any piece of equipment until I've personally shot good scores in competition with it, but these WAV's seem to be poised to do just that. And with a 1st and 2nd place finish at TX Shootout in the men's recurve division (although one could argue that Brady and Jake both finished 1st and 2nd with spin wings plenty of times) they don't seem to be hurting their scores at all.
> 
> This is good news for all of us who are looking for a low-maintenance alternative to spin wings without sacrificing weight or performance.
> 
> John


Actually WAV vanes went 1,2,3 as Colin was shooting them
As well.


----------



## kshet26

Take that with a grain of salt. The us mens team is pretty homogenous their equipment. I'd be more impressed if they start showing up on the women's side.


----------



## gairsz

kshet26 said:


> Take that with a grain of salt. The us mens team is pretty homogenous their equipment. I'd be more impressed if they start showing up on the women's side.


Michelle Gilbert won with Eli's P3's

Gary


----------



## kshet26

Exactly. I currently have 2 shafts with Eli's and 2 shafts with Wavs waiting to be tested tomorrow.


----------



## Dave_Gilbert

Miranda Leek was on the podium in Texas with Eli Vanes. Not sure, but I think she uses P3's also.


gairsz said:


> Michelle Gilbert won with Eli's P3's
> 
> Gary


----------



## limbwalker

Rchery4Lyfe said:


> Actually WAV vanes went 1,2,3 as Colin was shooting them
> As well.


Good catch. Impressive performance by Colin. 

I'll be shooting them at the TX State Field this weekend. They've been grouping very well for me so far. Still a toss-up with my Elivanes, but so long as they shoot as good, I'm willing to use them just to avoid any further maintenance.


----------



## Rchery4Lyfe

kshet26 said:


> Take that with a grain of salt. The us mens team is pretty homogenous their equipment. I'd be more impressed if they start showing up on the women's side.


With all due respect I think the women's team not using them should be taken with a grain of salt. 

As many of you have pointed out on this forum, the women's team is lacking for whatever reason internationally. I also do not see the majority of them having as direct of access to things like Fletching jigs and glue let alone the know how to fletch them up. Call me sexist if you want but I just see the men's side having more of a hands on in depth (self taught and self coached) approach then the woman's side.


----------



## Dave_Gilbert

And you know this how? If you value your life, never say this in front of Ms Lorig.  Just because the women aren't obsessed with equipment doesn't mean they don't know their way around a string and/or fletching jig. 



Rchery4Lyfe said:


> With all due respect I think the women's team not using them should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> I also do not see the majority of them having as direct of access to things like Fletching jigs and glue let alone the know how to fletch them up.


----------



## Cadpat

Rchery4Lyfe said:


> As many of you have pointed out on this forum, the women's team is lacking for whatever reason internationally. I also do not see the majority of them having as direct of access to things like Fletching jigs and glue let alone the know how to fletch them up. Call me sexist if you want but I just see the men's side having more of a hands on in depth (self taught and self coached) approach then the woman's side.


This is waaaay over-generalized. With archers' equipments as important as the archers themselves, hands-on approach with their equipments is unavoidable, regardless of their gender. 

Cheers,
Cadpat


----------



## Matt_Potter

Rchery4Lyfe said:


> With all due respect I think the women's team not using them should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> As many of you have pointed out on this forum, the women's team is lacking for whatever reason internationally. I also do not see the majority of them having as direct of access to things like Fletching jigs and glue let alone the know how to fletch them up. Call me sexist if you want but I just see the men's side having more of a hands on in depth (self taught and self coached) approach then the woman's side.


Your kidding right????

My daughter is 13 and I stopped fletching her shafts years ago. 

Matt


----------



## williamskg6

Rchery4Lyfe said:


> With all due respect I think the women's team not using them should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> As many of you have pointed out on this forum, the women's team is lacking for whatever reason internationally. I also do not see the majority of them having as direct of access to things like Fletching jigs and glue let alone the know how to fletch them up. Call me sexist if you want but I just see the men's side having more of a hands on in depth (self taught and self coached) approach then the woman's side.


My 15 year old daughter not only knows how to fletch her own arrows, but she prefers to. I think that once a person is shown how and has access to the equipment, they'll likely want to do it themselves unless they're impatient. This would apply to all archers, regardless of gender. This may not apply to all equipment setup/maintenance, but fletching arrows is one of those things where you get to see your attention to detail pay off. (If you do a good job, it shows.) I think that appeals to men and women (and teenage girls) alike.

On another completely different note, I've found the WAV vanes more difficult to glue on than the VaneTec Swift vanes my daughter uses. The base of the WAV vanes is very narrow. Furthermore, I've noticed that the bases are not entirely flat - they curve very slightly, making them harder to glue down securely. My white WAV vanes are also a tiny bit longer than the green WAV vanes I have. The curved base, despite being more difficult, actually works in my favor though. If glued down firmly on the shaft, the curve on the base actually makes the vanes curl over ever so slightly, which might make them spin more in flight. This is all conjecture at this point though - I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet since I just finished my arrows yesterday.


----------



## Rchery4Lyfe

I never said that they are incapable. Please don't take offense. I just see a difference at the elite level in the USA. Are the men obsessed? Most likely. I do not think an obbsession is the way to go but the difference I am talking about is leading VS following, the women may lead for up and comers, but are not leaders for the USA in archery.


----------



## edgerat

Rchery4Lyfe said:


> I never said that they are incapable. Please don't take offense. I just see a difference at the elite level in the USA. Are the men obsessed? Most likely. I do not think an obbsession is the way to go but the difference I am talking about is leading VS following, the women may lead for up and comers, but are not leaders for the USA in archery.


Jesus, keep digging yourself a hole man....


----------



## Bigjono

My WAV vanes arrived this morning. Holy cow they are thin and light.


----------



## red_elan10

Rchery4Lyfe said:


> I never said that they are incapable. Please don't take offense. I just see a difference at the elite level in the USA. Are the men obsessed? Most likely. I do not think an obbsession is the way to go but the difference I am talking about is leading VS following, the women may lead for up and comers, but are not leaders for the USA in archery.


Not sure how much actual interaction you've had with female Olympians and their male counterparts, but I invite you to spend some time getting to know the people (especially women) who actually shoot at that level before you make generalizations like you have. 

Regardless of how the women place internationally (and some of our women are doing quite well internationally), I can assure you that the top female archers I know (recurve and compound) can and do work on their own equipment. 

As the female coach of some very good young archers, I can also assure you that ALL of my students learn to set up and tune their own bows, and certainly fletch their own arrows, from a very early age. 

And as a competitive archer myself, I value the time it takes to experiment with equipment and find what works best for me as an individual. And I personally know that the top recurve and compound women do likewise.


----------



## williamskg6

Bigjono said:


> My WAV vanes arrived this morning. Holy cow they are thin and light.


They're also a little harder than usual to glue on. Make sure you've got them in good contact with the shaft!

I shot my new arrows today and they were grouping close enough together that I shot off a vane. I like these vanes very much. I don't know that the vanes were responsible for the improvement, but they couldn't have hurt!


----------



## kshet26

I would wager that all athletes at that level have an interest in their own equipment, but I would suspect that 'equipment obsession' isn't what leads the men to practically all use hoyt, easton, aae, and axcel equipment.

The only difference I see between the top US men and the top US women is the apparent imbalance of coverage and sponsorship deals. My point being this: the women have a lot less support in many areas and I'm more inclined to believe in the quality and validity of a product chosen by archers who may have to work harder for said product.

I shot some arrows with wavs against my elis and they appear to be just as good, so that looks promising!


----------



## tunedlow

williamskg6 said:


> They're also a little harder than usual to glue on. Make sure you've got them in good contact with the shaft!
> 
> I shot my new arrows today and they were grouping close enough together that I shot off a vane. I like these vanes very much. I don't know that the vanes were responsible for the improvement, but they couldn't have hurt!


yup. i've knocked off some vanes and busted a couple nocks this morning i definitely like em so far.


----------



## limbwalker

> I also do not see the majority of them having as direct of access to things like Fletching jigs and glue


So my suspicions are finally confirmed... Lancaster DOESN'T sell equipment to women! Aha! 



I've found them to be very easy to fletch with the AAE glue. Every single one I've fletched so far have stayed put just fine.


----------



## Cephas

The daughter shot a personal best JOAD indoor round today with her C1's with WAV's. 287/300 on a 60cm. She's been working hard on form the last several months so we won't say it's only the vanes but they didn't hurt anything and she saw a six point jump. She had been using spin wings. We're seeing better sight marks for her, about 12 inches higher, than with wings. 

Oh, and the thirteen year old knows her own equipment and can fletch and tune thank you very much.


----------



## Blades

For those that are having good success, what offset/helical are you using. I'm having a friend pick me up some of these at Redding. Im anxious to try them, but I usually do my spin wings by hand, and am borrowing a jig. Recommendations on settings would be good. And glues. I have NPV and some Bohning stuff, but I might order some of the AAE stuff.


----------



## Cephas

27# otf today, C1 1150 full length 90g pt. WAVs w/ one degree offset. Didn't want to get too aggressive w the offset and create more drag, she's trying to keep good sight marks at 60m.


----------



## limbwalker

I don't know how many degrees offset mine are, but I'm using a Right helical clamp on my Bitz and have as much on them as I can get with good contact between the foot of the vane and the shaft. I'm guessing that's 3 or 4 degrees? With skinny shafts and 2" vanes, you just don't have a whole lot to work with. 

Just came in from shooting 50 meters in my yard and I had a 9-arrow group that I could fit my hand around. So, they are grouping very, very well.


----------



## x-slayer1440

Mine are grouping really good. I shot them in Arizona cup and they worked good. I'm just happy with not having to reflects every week! And this 13 yr old does all of his tuning,string building,arrow building and everything else lol


----------



## John Hall

Yeah, but where was that group on the target?  ...just kidding, that's awesome from 50m! Just finished a few days of shooting six of each (WAV, SW-elite, SW-VLD). The WAV with 1-2 degree offset worked best for me from all distances. I'm going to re-fletch the other 12 arrows with WAV vanes tomorrow. BTW, each group had their own nock color (flo-green, flo-red, blue) so I could practice sight scoping from 90m/70m with other arrows in the bale... BLUE NOCKS ARE INVISIBLE!

John


----------



## elarock

Blades said:


> For those that are having good success, what offset/helical are you using. I'm having a friend pick me up some of these at Redding. Im anxious to try them, but I usually do my spin wings by hand, and am borrowing a jig. Recommendations on settings would be good. And glues. I have NPV and some Bohning stuff, but I might order some of the AAE stuff.


I have a clamp jig but I modified my ez fletch by narrowing the slots to accommodate the skinny Wav bases. The EZF has a pretty aggressive helical (6°R I believe). I posted pics on this thread (post #32). Also I've switched to Bohnjng Fletch tape. No mess and as you can see in the pics they go on neat and clean. Best of all no more scraping when it's time to replace..just roll/peel the sticky stuff off (except the small dab of glue at the fore and aft of the vane of course). It stays on strong. If you want to stay with glue the best IMO is Loctite Ultra Gel.


----------



## John Hall

Forgot to mention... for me, using a disposable needle tip on the AAE MaxBond bottle really helped get the right amount of glue on the vane and avoid over-application that causes the clamp to stick to the vane:

http://www.stevensaero.com/ZAP-Flexi-Tips-24-pkg-PAAPT21-p-19781.html

I'm also an RC helicopter pilot so I had some of these laying around... part of a bigger order from some other vendor I'm sure.

John


----------



## massman

I've sometime employed a roll of paper towels when fletching. After applying glue to the vane a QUICK dab of the vane in the clamp on the roll of paper towels will remove excess glue. Leaving just enough of a film of glue on the vane to secure the vane to the shaft.

Regards,

Tom


----------



## limbwalker

Just won the TSAA State Field event today - setting a new two-day state record, using Nano Pro Xtreme prototypes and AAE WAV's. 

Vic broke my two single day state records today as well, but couldn't dig his way out of the hole he put himself in on day 1 though.

The WAV's performed very well IMO.

John


----------



## GilG

That is nice to hear John! Gotta try those WAV's soon


----------



## John Hall

Congrats John on the win and TX state record! I will be shooting WAV's at the AL state field next weekend and the FL state field later this month.

John


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## massman

I was able to get to the club yesterday and shoot 20 arrows. Felt good to be old. Shoulder comming along. I show my nes McKinney II's w AAE Wave vanes installed. Flight was good--I need to do some tuning.....

So far they seem to be a hit for me...

Regards,

Tom


----------



## reflex51

John, 
If I missed your reply, please forgive me.. but did you get a chance to try the acetone trick on the carbons and plastic vanes and how did it work for you. 
Thanks


----------



## Arsi

As an update to my experience with the WAVs, I refletched them onto my arrows with an even crazier helical than I had before. I am using Bohning fletch tape with a Bitzenburger. The fletch tape allows me to hand finish the ends of each vane so I was able to get a nice propeller-like vane angle on my X10s  When I did that, I did not suffer any sight mark loss, even at 90m. 

I had a bit of clearance issue which costed me one shaft into a concrete wall but I solved that real fast and they are flying great. Ended up improving my PB at 70m by 14 points (306). Though that could be a combination of factors regarding my training schedule and coaching, but the WAVs definitely arent hurting the score 

I have two shoots coming up within the next week. One SoCal regional FITA and then the California state outdoor tournaments start with the Cotton Boll. Ill report back my performance in time. Confidence is improving!


----------



## limbwalker

reflex51 said:


> John,
> If I missed your reply, please forgive me.. but did you get a chance to try the acetone trick on the carbons and plastic vanes and how did it work for you.
> Thanks


Not quite yet. Still deciding whether the daughter will be shooting these or the Gas Pro's. They fly into the same groups for her at 50 meters, and she used a combination of both (3 ea.) to earn her next JOAD achievement pin last night. If they are going to group the same for her, I'm going to try and talk her into letting me put the WAV's on all her arrows, just so I don't have to repair or replace the Gas Pro's during the year. But she likes the look of the Gas Pro's better. If the WAV's came in better colors, she would be sold on those.

John


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## reflex51

Thanks for your reply John. I may just have to give it a try myself and see how it goes.


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## kshet26

From my testing of bareshaft vs WAVs and Elis:

Even though the WAVs are lighter they impacted further left of my bareshafts than the Elis (righty shooter) at 18m. This means that either they are truly making the arrows act stiffer (maybe better clearance?), or more more likely they are doing a better job correcting a centershot issue in that short distance.

Or maybe they're doing a worse job? I'll have to figure it out.


----------



## Arsi

limbwalker said:


> If the WAV's came in better colors, she would be sold on those.


Ah. The crux of any and all equipment change decisions


----------



## limbwalker

Arsi said:


> Ah. The crux of any and all equipment change decisions


Well, she is a 12 year old girl after all... 

But she's also pragmatic, and (imagine this) listens to her coach, who just happens to be her dad.


----------



## massman

John,

You need to give up some of your PINK AAE Wave, for her to shoot;-)


Regards,

Tom

Actually I'm trying the yellow vanes and really like the look with a black nock.


----------



## elarock

I'm finding the pink Wavs hard to see against the red rings in the scope. And yes I know the solution is to just hit gold every time Lol..working on it.


----------



## limbwalker

I like my Hot Pink vanes...  Besides, they are always a conversation starter on the line. ha, ha, ha.

And yes, they do tend to blend into the red a little too well, but that's why I have some different colored nocks in the mail as I type this!


----------



## LittleJP

I'm using one black, two orange, and an orange nock. It shows up very well and is remiscent of a tiger.


----------



## Arsi

LittleJP said:


> I'm using one black, two orange, and an orange nock. It shows up very well and is remiscent of a tiger.


Oh jeez I forgot that I could mix and match colors! Just when I got all remaining arrows fletched up... sheesh. Thanks a lot for complicating my vane color choice, JP


----------



## Bigjono

I am using the hot pink with flo green nocks, they look cool but then I've used that combo for years.


----------



## limbwalker

Bigjono said:


> I am using the hot pink with flo green nocks, they look cool but then I've used that combo for years.


Hot pink with light blue Beiter out-nocks here... Looks like I'm going to a darn baby shower. ha, ha. My daughter tells me they go together though, and that's really what's important. She has to "approve" of my arrows for them to fly well.


----------



## Bigjono

limbwalker said:


> Hot pink with light blue Beiter out-nocks here... Looks like I'm going to a darn baby shower. ha, ha. My daughter tells me they go together though, and that's really what's important. She has to "approve" of my arrows for them to fly well.


I know that feeling. It's like having the fashion police checking your arrows. 15 year old daughters, don't you just love them


----------



## limbwalker

Why, yes, I do.  She keeps me from making major fashion "fail's" with my selections. ha, ha.


----------



## Bigjono

limbwalker said:


> Why, yes, I do.  She keeps me from making major fashion "fail's" with my selections. ha, ha.


Lol


----------



## rsarns

Well my experiment with WAV vanes is over... with a compound. Athough they flew extremely well and grouped, they cannot hold up to the beating a compound (with fingers) puts them through. I talked to Dan (from AAE) at Redding, as the vanes were actually wrinkiling up and he said they were designed for recurves. I still have my recurves ACE's fletched up with them and they fly well. 
Funny my 15 yr old daughter is aways giving me fashion advice... like I need a haircut .....


----------



## Bigjono

I don't even get advice, I just get "the look" followed by "really" you're going out like that


----------



## grantmac

That is because you DO need a haircut Ren.


----------



## rsarns

grantmac said:


> That is because you DO need a haircut Ren.


Grant... I figure I will get one soon... maybe next year?


----------



## grantmac

I'm not the one who got his hair caught in his bowstring while shooting indoors, I seem to remember you had some choice words.


----------



## rsarns

grantmac said:


> I'm not the one who got his hair caught in his bowstring while shooting indoors, I seem to remember you had some choice words.


LOL... yes and I think some of my hair beat the CXL to the target... I keep it in a ponytail now

I will be fletching up my sons arrows with WAV vanes also, as they seem to be pretty durable for me so far.


----------



## grantmac

I've been happy with the Bohning Impulse vanes, but when I finally get a decent set of FITA arrows (likely VAPs at this point) then I will be using these.

-Grant


----------



## williamskg6

limbwalker said:


> Why, yes, I do.  She keeps me from making major fashion "fail's" with my selections. ha, ha.


Good to know that I'm not the only one whose 15 year old daughter thinks that Dad has no fashion sense. It's to the point that my wife asks my daughter about fashion instead of me, which isn't all bad...

On the archery front, color coordinating equipment is important to her, but the good thing is she'll shoot stuff that doesn't match if she has to. The shooting slightly edges out fashion when it comes to archery.


----------



## Arsi

Shot another personal best last night with the WAVs. This time during indoor league. 421-10x on a 450 Vegas target.


----------



## baller

Arsi said:


> Shot another personal best last night with the WAVs. This time during indoor league. 421-10x on a 450 Vegas target.



Nice shooting sir.....looking forward to trying these vanes with my new rig.....should be shooting it by monday afternoon


----------



## Arsi

Yet another AAE Wav update. Been smashing personal bests like nobodies business. I really cant call it ALL the vane but as ive said before, its not hurting! I finally broke 1200 in practice yesterday with a 1205, nabbing another personal best at 30m with a 342. Then today at the Long Beach Qualifiers I went ahead and decided to break THAT personal best with a 1219 and a personal best at 50m with 310. Sure its not the world class scores everyone is so used to here but ive only been with my coach for about 10 months and only been shooting for a year and three months. Lets just say im convinced that the Wavs are just as good if not better FOR ME than the Eli Vanes. AAE just got another loyal customer


----------



## limbwalker

Arsi, that's fantastic progress. Keep it up...!



> Sure its not the world class scores everyone is so used to here


I can promise you there aren't 10 people on this forum that routinely shoot 310's at 50 meters with a recurve.  

Good for you.


----------



## Arsi

Thanks! I think Texas rewired my brain. Ever since shooting in those winds, I have it in my head that everything else is a cakewalk and boom, scores just started blasting off.


----------



## julle

Got my first set of x10's in the mail last saturday. Fletched a few up with pink WAVS and the cheapes CA glue imaginable and they are stuck forever. I put them on an offset(no helical) no idea how much but just enough so both ends touch the shaft(which is not much on an x10). Very pleased on the short distances avaraging just as good or maybe even better than with my aces. I also fletched some with elis, and they were grouping a little to the right @ 30 meters, the elis P3's are also 1.5 grain lighter(not like stated before).


----------



## Poldi

anybody with experiences on fletching the wav vanes with fletching tape (e.g. bohning)?


----------



## Arsi

Poldi said:


> anybody with experiences on fletching the wav vanes with fletching tape (e.g. bohning)?


Yep. Its the only way I was able to get as much helical as I currently have on mine because I was able to finish the ends of the fletches by hand. Just a few mm.

I clean my arrows and fletches a lot prior to applying and I have never had any issues with fletchings coming out. I also dab some fletch glue at the ends to make sure they stay.


----------



## Blades

Poldi said:


> anybody with experiences on fletching the wav vanes with fletching tape (e.g. bohning)?


I just used some left over Kurly vane tape, ill let you know how it goes!


----------



## Mulcade

rsarns said:


> Well my experiment with WAV vanes is over... with a compound. Athough they flew extremely well and grouped, they cannot hold up to the beating a compound (with fingers) puts them through. I talked to Dan (from AAE) at Redding, as the vanes were actually wrinkiling up and he said they were designed for recurves.


Try the Plastifletch Max from AAE for your compound. I've been using the shield cut for almost a year on my compound and haven't had a single problem with them.


----------



## baller

Mulcade said:


> Try the Plastifletch Max from AAE for your compound. I've been using the shield cut for almost a year on my compound and haven't had a single problem with them.


+1.....I have a set of arrows that are in their 3rd season of fita/field/3D with PF Max shields on them...haven't had to replace a single vane yet.

I did have Max Shields on my recurve arrows until this year....giving WAVs a try since they were engineered for recurve and save me a little wieght and help with FOC. Like em so far.


----------



## gairsz

KOR Women at 70 meters. 337, 334, 331. All Shooting Spinies. Just sayin.









Gary


----------



## Blades

Double sided tape was a no-go for me. They seemed to stick right after i fletched them, but fell off in a few hours. Back to glue for me.


----------



## tunedlow

Poldi said:


> anybody with experiences on fletching the wav vanes with fletching tape (e.g. bohning)?


I originally used Bohning fletch tape on my Wavs until tight groupings were ripping them right off the arrows. I went direct to glue (AAE Max glue) and they've held up rather well on my ACEs. I havent lost one vane yet since switching to using glue straight on the carbon arrows.


----------



## gairsz

KOR Men at 90 meters, 333, 325, 317, and all shooting spinies.









Gary


----------



## tunedlow

gairsz said:


> KOR Women at 70 meters. 337, 334, 331. All Shooting Spinies. Just sayin.
> 
> View attachment 1668410
> 
> 
> Gary


Just my 2 cents: It works for em but just because it works for em doesn't mean it would work for you in the same way given variations in shooting style. Follow what works for you rather than try to fit some other person's "standard" of what is best.


----------



## Bob Furman

Blades said:


> Double sided tape was a no-go for me. They seemed to stick right after i fletched them, but fell off in a few hours. Back to glue for me.


Just out of curiosity, did you clean your vanes before using the tape? I know the flier they send with their vanes say "Do not Use Acetone or Alcohol to clean your vanes. NO cleaning is needed". From what i hear this is because "activator" that reacts to the AAE Max glue that they make and recommend. I would think that if you are not using their glue that would be a crucial step.


----------



## RBK

View attachment 1668547
View attachment 1668548


I just re-fletched a dozen Carbon One's. The first time I fletched them with the Wave Vanes I used Acetone to Clean the Shafts and Flex-Bond Adhesive. The Vanes could be peeled right off and I just knew they wouldn't hold up.
I ordered another package of Wave Vanes from LAS along with AAE MAX Clean arrow cleaner and AAE MAX Bond. After stripping all the vanes and cleaning the Shafts with MAX Clean I used a Bitzenburger Jig with RW Helical Clamp.
I set the Jig up to providing a real good twist, applied the Max Bond sparingly to the Vane and eased the clamp into position making sure I had good contact with the shaft. Held the clamp firmly against the shaft for a count of ten
then let set for another few minutes and continued on. I was really impressed with the results using the MAX Clean and MAX Bond and my time to fletch a dozen arrows was cut by at least 75%. I tried pulling or peeling the Vanes Off
with no luck these guys are stuck GOOD I'll have to cut them off !!!!! Have to admit the folks at AAE know what their talking about. 

Rick


----------



## kid_cupid

Blades, 
after I fletch my arrows (was Spin Wings but now Eli) using the double sided stick tape, I take a little baggie with some talcum powder inside, and place the back end of the arrow and the fletchings in the bag sealing it closed around the shaft. I then spin the shaft around to get the talcum powder all around the shaft. Shake the arrow a bit to get the excess powder off while the arrow is still in the bag. Then I take the shaft out and blow the reamining talcum powder off. You can even wipe of the excess. The powder sticks to any exposed adhesive tape and thus prevens fletches from the other arrows from sticking to the tape. 

But the key here is to ensure that you properly apply the vanes to the tape getting the most surface of the edge of the vane you can on the tape in the first place. 

This not only minimizes or eliminates exposed parts of the tape but provides for a better "attachement" of the vane to the shaft. And yes, with some practice and patience, you can indeed, have a very professional looking finish when you are all done. When I'm at the range, I have my little repair kit of extra vanes, both kinds of tape and a little baggie of powder. (OK Guys, I don't want to hear about what type of powder works best, e.g., baby, baking, talcum, sugar, powder from Germany, Italy, US, France, etc., etc....lol)

The kid


----------



## limbwalker

333 at 90 meters.

That's just stupid good. 

Yes, spinnies ARE the gold standard in this sport of recurve target archery. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. Every other vane has to prove it can hang with spin-wings. 

I have spent many days in the last few weeks standing directly behind my archers, watching arrow after arrow go downrange for the full flight with arrows fletched with spin wings, elivanes and AAE Wav's. I have to tell you that I can tell the difference in stabilization as they go through the air. The Spin wings nearly ALWAYS stabilize the arrow better than the elivane p3's or the AAE Wav's.

I'm still hoping against hope that my arrows fletched with Wav's will produce equal scores to what I've shot with Elivane S3's or spin wings. So far, they have not, but they are very close indeed. For my daughter, and one of my top students, the Wav's - seem - to be grouping just as well as the spin wings and elivanes. However, that student just earned her Bronze Olympian yesterday shooting spin wings at 60 meters, so sometimes what shoots the best for an archer is what they have the most confidence in. There is always that.

John


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## limbwalker

If only spin wings would lengthen the tails of their vanes to give you a tad more under the wraps of end tape - the way that Gas Pro's are... Seems like such a simple thing to do.


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## gairsz

gairsz said:


> KOR Women at 70 meters. 337, 334, 331. All Shooting Spinies. Just sayin.
> 
> View attachment 1668410
> 
> 
> Gary


It looks like all four of the Korean women are shooting GMX's. All four of the Korean women shot over 1350. Three of the four Korean men shot over 1350 as well. Not a world record, but 1371 is ridiculous.


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## Poldi

and at least three of these korean women shoot with the simple hoyt super rest....


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## tunedlow

Bob Furman said:


> Just out of curiosity, did you clean your vanes before using the tape? I know the flier they send with their vanes say "Do not Use Acetone or Alcohol to clean your vanes. NO cleaning is needed". From what i hear this is because "activator" that reacts to the AAE Max glue that they make and recommend. I would think that if you are not using their glue that would be a crucial step.


i didn't clean my vanes either but they just didn't stand up to being grouped so closely as well as using glue straight up on the arrow. I'd be curious to see if using fletch tape following Max clean works better because i was just using acetone to clean the shafts, air dried them and applied the vanes using tweezers making sure I didnt touch the tape or the vanes. I went back to glue after I lost lost a vane each on 4 arrows following a 6 arrow end of close grouped shots.


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## gairsz

It looks like to me that wave vanes are not set to replace spine wings. Here is a picture of Brady in Shanghai. Those look like spinies to me.









Gary


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## elarock

tunedlow said:


> i didn't clean my vanes either but they just didn't stand up to being grouped so closely as well as using glue straight up on the arrow. I'd be curious to see if using fletch tape following Max clean works better because i was just using acetone to clean the shafts, air dried them and applied the vanes using tweezers making sure I didnt touch the tape or the vanes. I went back to glue after I lost lost a vane each on 4 arrows following a 6 arrow end of close grouped shots.


I used Bohning fletch tape on my first set of Wavs and I've been really happy with them. I used a 'modified' ez fletch (attached photos on post #32 here) and my fletching job is super clean and neat. I've only lost one from a hard direct hit from another shaft. Other hits have been just fine. My ez fletch put a fair amount of helical (r, 6°) on a relatively skinny Medallion XR shaft. I put a dab of Loctite Ultra on the front and back and they're locked down tight (no pun intended). Just be sure to get *full *contact with the tape and valley on the vane..the base is very narrow with fairly deep cupping. BTW I did clean with denatured alcohol on both the shaft and vane.

Also, I'm still shooting with both SW and Wavs and they seem to be flying the same for me. Again, I think it just comes down to the Wavs being more durable and cost effective. If they don't hurt your scores then they're worth the switch IMO. If I was a pro and full time shooter, sure I don't mind installing SW often..that's just what you do I guess.


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## kshet26

gairsz said:


> It looks like to me that wave vanes are not set to replace spine wings. Here is a picture of Brady in Shanghai. Those look like spinies to me.
> 
> View attachment 1668660
> 
> 
> Gary


Man, that is some crazy side anchor!


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## limbwalker

Not crazy side anchor at all. It's what many top archers use. It actually surprises me how many beginners and amateur archers still want to anchor in the center of their chin...

Yup, I figured Brady would be back on the spinnies soon enough. I was expecting it. He can probably win with either here in the U.S., but abroad, when the Asian nations show up, he's going to need every single point he can get. 

Interesting to note too, that he's back to (gasp!) a single finger loop on his tab. A sight for these sore eyes, as I refused to go the multi-loop route. 

It's so interesting to me to see so many of the world's elite archers either return to conventional setups, or never leave them in the first place...


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## Blades

Bob Furman said:


> Just out of curiosity, did you clean your vanes before using the tape? I know the flier they send with their vanes say "Do not Use Acetone or Alcohol to clean your vanes. NO cleaning is needed". From what i hear this is because "activator" that reacts to the AAE Max glue that they make and recommend. I would think that if you are not using their glue that would be a crucial step.


I cleaned the shafts, but not the vanes, due to their recommendations. 



kid_cupid said:


> Blades,
> after I fletch my arrows (was Spin Wings but now Eli) using the double sided stick tape, I take a little baggie with some talcum powder inside, and place the back end of the arrow and the fletchings in the bag sealing it closed around the shaft. I then spin the shaft around to get the talcum powder all around the shaft. Shake the arrow a bit to get the excess powder off while the arrow is still in the bag. Then I take the shaft out and blow the reamining talcum powder off. You can even wipe of the excess. The powder sticks to any exposed adhesive tape and thus prevens fletches from the other arrows from sticking to the tape.
> 
> But the key here is to ensure that you properly apply the vanes to the tape getting the most surface of the edge of the vane you can on the tape in the first place.
> 
> This not only minimizes or eliminates exposed parts of the tape but provides for a better "attachement" of the vane to the shaft. And yes, with some practice and patience, you can indeed, have a very professional looking finish when you are all done. When I'm at the range, I have my little repair kit of extra vanes, both kinds of tape and a little baggie of powder. (OK Guys, I don't want to hear about what type of powder works best, e.g., baby, baking, talcum, sugar, powder from Germany, Italy, US, France, etc., etc....lol)
> 
> The kid


I have done that in the past with spin wings, but i dont think it would help with these. The vanes wouldnt stick to the double sided tape, and I had placed them all separate so i dont think it was the vanes touching another arrows tape or anything. 

Admittedly I am new to fletching, and am still trying to figure out the degrees and now to get the best contact between the vane and the shaft. I have a straight clamp, but in order to get good contact with the shaft, i cant really offset these very much. Otherwise the ends lift up.



limbwalker said:


> If only spin wings would lengthen the tails of their vanes to give you a tad more under the wraps of end tape - the way that Gas Pro's are... Seems like such a simple thing to do.


Amen to that. Then the wrap tape could do its job. Had 1 vane pop yesterday because of the tape.... sounds real weird when flying to the target....


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## InKYfromSD

limbwalker said:


> It's so interesting to me to see so many of the world's elite archers either return to conventional setups, or never leave them in the first place...


Kind of raises the question of how much of what's being used by current top-level archers is actually new vs. what's been around for years or even decades...


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## kshet26

limbwalker said:


> Not crazy side anchor at all. It's what many top archers use. It actually surprises me how many beginners and amateur archers still want to anchor in the center of their chin...


It's not the side vs center that's interesting. It's the fact that its about 3/4" - 1" behind the corner of his chin (current NTS says corner of chin). The facial hair might help in that department, but Leek has a similar anchor.


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## Arsi

Am I the only one to have never had a vane pop off ever? Even when using spin wings, eli vanes, and these WAVs haha. All I use to clean is some Safeway branded alcohol I got from Vons. I think its something in the 90% range.


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## limbwalker

You can ask Jason McKittrick about spin wings coming off and fluttering through the air at very in-opportune times... Not something you want to happen, I can assure you.

As for the side anchor, I was doing that before Miranda and Brady were out of Jr. High... 

It's really nothing new.


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## grantmac

I've been wondering if my anchor was too far back, but it seems to be in about the same spot as Brady's. Anything further forward and I just can't get inline to save my life. When I'm back there it's great. I'm using my shelf as a thumb pad, anchoring with the thumb inside the line of my jaw and against my neck.
I couldn't get any other anchor to "click" until I tried this.

-Grant


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## caspian

limbwalker said:


> Not crazy side anchor at all. It's what many top archers use. It actually surprises me how many beginners and amateur archers still want to anchor in the center of their chin...


possibly less confronting than the idea of string contact with the side of the face? certainly for me I would need a much larger nose to get centre chin and nose contact going without major head bob.


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## limbwalker

> the idea of string contact with the side of the face


There is a reason so many top recurve men have facial hair on their chins. 

Just sayin'

You've heard of calf-hair tabs before, right?


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## edgerat

limbwalker said:


> 333 at 90 meters.
> 
> That's just stupid good.
> 
> Yes, spinnies ARE the gold standard in this sport of recurve target archery. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. Every other vane has to prove it can hang with spin-wings.
> 
> I have spent many days in the last few weeks standing directly behind my archers, watching arrow after arrow go downrange for the full flight with arrows fletched with spin wings, elivanes and AAE Wav's. I have to tell you that I can tell the difference in stabilization as they go through the air. The Spin wings nearly ALWAYS stabilize the arrow better than the elivane p3's or the AAE Wav's.
> 
> I'm still hoping against hope that my arrows fletched with Wav's will produce equal scores to what I've shot with Elivane S3's or spin wings. So far, they have not, but they are very close indeed. For my daughter, and one of my top students, the Wav's - seem - to be grouping just as well as the spin wings and elivanes. However, that student just earned her Bronze Olympian yesterday shooting spin wings at 60 meters, so sometimes what shoots the best for an archer is what they have the most confidence in. There is always that.
> 
> John


Not for nothing John but, you are at a level that you could just about shoot bareshafts most of the time and see the same score right? From a pure size standpoint there just isn't any way that the Wave can stabilize better than the SpinWing.  I said it earlier but I have seen SpinWings correct a full length 2712 at 700gr better than a 5" feather with HUGE helical on it. They certainly are a pain to keep in shape but I don't see any contender for the SpinWing crown soon. 
Isaac


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## Stash

limbwalker said:


> As for the side anchor, I was doing that before Miranda and Brady were out of Jr. High...


And Larry Smith was doing that before YOU were out of high school  And someone before him...I like watching the old films of the '60s with the weird head angles and compulsory center-of-the-chin anchors.


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## limbwalker

Indeed Stash. That's my point. It's been around a long time and it's pretty common. Not sure why it's still such a surprise. Guess there are still a bunch of coaches out there teaching center of chin anchor? Or maybe folks are seeing pictures from the 60's and emulating those? I agree, those cocked heads just look odd.


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## FlyingWatchmake

Back on topic ;-) 
Finally got some WAV's... Fletched 3 up to see how they go against my spinnies... On the upside they're available in orange, as opposed to my black spin wings... 

Tom


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## FlyingWatchmake

Did some testing tonight, though only at 18m, grouping is tight, no chance in sight marks between spins and WAV's... I'll likely switch to WAV's for winter, easier to dry, and a little less need for fine motor movements in rain and wind..



And a comparison with FFP187's

Root thickness - 
WAV - 0.44mm
FFP - 0.64

Edge thickness 
WAV - 0.28
FFP - 0.44


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## limbwalker

Yea, I saw no sight mark difference between my daughter's Gas Pro's and her Wav's at all, out to 60 meters with a very light bow. That's impressive. 

Cool numbers there.

I'm still shooting mine. I'll most likely shoot them at US Field Nationals in a few weeks, as one of my bows is absolutely grouping lights-out with them right now.


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## John Hall

*Durability test!*

Man, I don't think any Spin Wing would have survived this:















Not only did the vane not tear but the MaxBond glue kept it from peeling off too. Just smooth it out and back in the quiver!

John


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## limbwalker

Curious how long that wrinkle is going to stay though. I've noticed already that I'm getting wrinkles in my AAE Wav's - something I NEVER saw in the AAE Plastifletch Max vanes... 

If I'm going to have to re-fletch the WAV's because they lack durability, I may as well use spin wings or elivanes.


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## julle

John Hall said:


> Not only did the vane not tear but the MaxBond glue kept it from peeling off too. Just smooth it out and back in the quiver!
> 
> John


It's not the MaxBond, it's just cyanoacrylate ;-)


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## Arsi

limbwalker said:


> Curious how long that wrinkle is going to stay though. I've noticed already that I'm getting wrinkles in my AAE Wav's - something I NEVER saw in the AAE Plastifletch Max vanes...
> 
> If I'm going to have to re-fletch the WAV's because they lack durability, I may as well use spin wings or elivanes.


Yeah its something im having an issue with too. I keep my arrows in a tube and they lay on their sides. The vane is still stuck on the shaft real tight but the vanes bend over. It looks like they arent 120 degrees from eachother but I put it in my hand and spin them around back and forth but it doesnt return back to the same helical that I had them when I first fletched them. One vane is just bent around :/

Im going to be shooting them at the Cotton Boll Classic this weekend in Cali and after this, ill have to re-evaluate the condition of these vanes.


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## limbwalker

Agreed. Mine are holding up "okay" but I've not really abused them much as of yet. 

Interestingly enough, my Elivane S3's are still in perfect working condition after over a year's worth of use. I've not re-fletched more than two single vanes in that time.


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## edgerat

limbwalker said:


> Curious how long that wrinkle is going to stay though. I've noticed already that I'm getting wrinkles in my AAE Wav's - something I NEVER saw in the AAE Plastifletch Max vanes...
> 
> If I'm going to have to re-fletch the WAV's because they lack durability, I may as well use spin wings or elivanes.


and that is why I am not using them. Maybe they are WAVE vanes because they get "wavey" quite easily.... Flex Fletch for my compounds and SpinWings for my Barebow.


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## Blades

So I can't get mine to stick. Good old gorilla super glue works.... barely. the double sided tape didnt work, and NPV it too thick to allow them to stick. Can't afford/dont want to go buy the cleaner and glue to get these to stick perfectly. 

It is looking that for me, the investment in a jig, proper glue and the vanes will outweigh the cost of replacing spin wings when they become damaged. Ill still hang on to the vanes, and borrow a jig when i can, but the spinnies are just easy. It takes me only a few minutes to do a whole arrow, and I can do it in the field. 

I will also probably switch to eli vanes when the cash is available.


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## williamskg6

Blades said:


> So I can't get mine to stick. Good old gorilla super glue works.... barely.


Fortunately I already had a jig. I've been using Flex-Bond glue for a while and haven't had any other vanes come off, but with that narrow base, it's tough to get enough contact without putting considerably more force when fletching WAV vanes. Since altering how vigorously I apply the pressure, I haven't had any WAV vanes pop off. So, they do have their challenges, but they fly nicely!


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## elarock

Arsi said:


> Yeah its something im having an issue with too. I keep my arrows in a tube and they lay on their sides. The vane is still stuck on the shaft real tight but the vanes bend over. It looks like they arent 120 degrees from eachother but I put it in my hand and spin them around back and forth but it doesnt return back to the same helical that I had them when I first fletched them. One vane is just bent around :/
> 
> Im going to be shooting them at the Cotton Boll Classic this weekend in Cali and after this, ill have to re-evaluate the condition of these vanes.


It's funny I was thinking about this over the weekend so I jerry-rigged a divider for my arrow tube with scrap cardboard to see if it would help to alleviate wear on the vanes/SW and to keep them from getting crushed..think dividers on your quiver. Again, this was crude to see if it would work so I'll probably try to figure out a more elegant version when I have time. Lol


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## Poldi

ok, tomorrow i get my pack of WAVs and certainly i will glue some for testing.

but at the actual stage in the rec world cup you have to be honest - spin wings and X10 still rule....


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## limbwalker

Still shooting and grouping pretty well, but they certainly lack the durability of their beefier cousins, the Plastifletch Max. I've wrinkled 3 vanes so far, enough that they needed replacing. 

In over 1.5 years of shooting Elivane S3's on my previous arrows, I only had to repair 3 vanes total. Elivanes - believe it or not - look like the more durable option to me.

Fletched up 3 arrows with Elivane P3's according to Vittorio's specifications, and so far so good. The Elivanes and Wav's are grouping together out to 50 meters, although the Elivanes seem to group better at 10 and 15 meters (fita field...).

John


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## limbwalker

Someone asked what I meant by fletching my Elivane P3's to Vittorio's specifications. Basically, it's laying the two-sided tape across the line (Nano's have three lines printed on them for fletching purposes) so that one end of the tape touches one side of the line, and the other end of the tape touches the other side of the line. Not sure what the angle is, but I'd guess about 5-7 degrees? In other words, the tape is offset by the amount of the width of the tape. 

Seems to be working. I was shooting small enough groups at 15 and 20 meters that I started shooting a 3 spot birdie target instead (practicing for field right now) and they grouped right with my Wav's at 50 meters - at least as good. 

Haven't compared them head to head in the wind yet though. I should be able to do that this afternoon before our JOAD practice.

The Wav's are very impressive vanes to be sure. I'd say they shoot at least as good as any other recurve vane. However, if the durability is going to be an issue, then you don't want to glue down a vane to the shaft that you know you'll eventually have to replace within a few months. So, if that's the case, I'll take a mylar vane that I can replace by hand, in the field instead.

John


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## baller

Well, I beat the crap out of my WAVs this week (tuning 2 risers in just a few days...long story). The practice range I frequent hasn't had the target butts updated for the year yet so I got several pass throughs on the first day of tuning and shooting...at least 4 that I can remember. Some of the WAVs were torn off, others stayed on but were very deformed...none of the old tricks like heat or anything would get them back to their original shape. I refletched 6 with kurly vanes (usually use spin wings but this is all i had at the time) and went back on day 2. Had a few more pass throughs, this time with both types. The mylar vanes held up much better than the WAVs did, only needing one to be replaced from getting creased. 

Group testing was very consistant, both grouped well and in the same spot, didn't see any real conclusive results that would say one was better than the other.


Pros vs cons for me, I've gone back to mylar vanes. For me if I'm going to have to refletch an arrow on the odd passthrough or miss, I'll stick with mylar since I can do them quicker and in the field.


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## limbwalker

> others stayed on but were very deformed...none of the old tricks like heat or anything would get them back to their original shape.


And even a creased mylar vane can easily be fixed by pulling a thumbnail along the crease. I've done this many times. You can't even tell it was creased afterwards if you do it correctly. 



> Pros vs cons for me, I've gone back to mylar vanes. For me if I'm going to have to refletch an arrow on the odd passthrough or miss, I'll stick with mylar since I can do them quicker and in the field.


I think this is probably where I'm at. As my Wav's get wrinkled, I'll be replacing them with Elivanes. 

Shame too, as I really *wanted* to like this fletching solution.


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## Cadpat

So perhaps in terms of durability it would be Elivanes > AAE Wav > Spin wings. From price point-of-view, Elivanes is 75% more expensive than the other two thus, price ~ durability, I guess


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## Poldi

Cadpat said:


> So perhaps in terms of durability it would be Elivanes > AAE Wav > Spin wings. From price point-of-view, Elivanes is 75% more expensive than the other two thus, price ~ durability, I guess


ok, the new expierences about the durability of the WAVs make me thinking.
currently i'm shooting spins and if a vane got damaged i could easily replace the vane even during a tournament. this will not work with the WAVs.
anyway - wednesday i will test them as i ordered a pack and we will see...




limbwalker said:


> Shame too, as I really *wanted* to like this fletching solution.


word!


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## Bob Furman

limbwalker said:


> Curious how long that wrinkle is going to stay though. I've noticed already that I'm getting wrinkles in my AAE Wav's - something I NEVER saw in the AAE Plastifletch Max vanes...
> 
> If I'm going to have to re-fletch the WAV's because they lack durability, I may as well use spin wings or elivanes.


I just got an email back from AAE about this and this is normal because of the vane being so thin and flexible. They recommend letting them sit in the sun or applying a hair dryer. I used a heat gun on 3 of mine and after about a minute they were straight again 


Also commented this in http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2021387


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