# Vibration after the shot on ilf bow.



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Shouldn't be the case. What kind of string? Material and strand count.


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

The string is a stone mountain Dynaflight D97 14 strands. Got if from Lancaster.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

What weight arrow are you shooting? Sometimes a heavier arrow will really cause the bow to settle. Maybe try tuning again to be sure you have the correct tip/arrow weight?


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

I am shooting Victory V6 600 spine at full length with 100gr tips, total weight is about 350gr, they seem to tune very well.


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

Alloy will typically have more vibration than a wood riser and the Sage is a very quiet bow to begin with so you might be ok just its a noticeable difference. Check all screws by hitting the riser with the palm of your hand and take notice of any rattle or buzz. Check the grip screws, rest, ILF limb screws, etc, and make sure they are firm. If there is none then you can look at using various silencers, etc to quiet it down a bit.

Some ILF bows are just noisy regardless of what you do.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Marco -

There are two types of vibration an ILF or any bow can produce.

A felt vibration or rather an ossification may be due to improper tiller (nocking point position) / overall tuning or factory mismatched limbs, yeah, it can happen, especially with some of the more entry level stuff. The former should be able to be tuned out and the later requires a different set of limbs to test. While possible a specific riser has a nodal defect affect harmonics, it's pretty unlikely. However different bow designs and materials will have different harmonics and without seeing/hearing it in person, it is possible it just "feels" different than your Sage.

A heard vibration or buzz is almost always due to something being loose. Plungers are the most likely culprits, but any screw, including lateral adjustments screws or lock downs AND limb dove tail screws can loosen and buzz. 

Finally remember that the Forged Plus is an Olympic riser and designed to be balanced with a stabilizer. Trying a 5/16" x 24 bolt loaded with fender washers in the main stab bushing (or borrowing a stab - any kind) may prove interesting.

Viper1 out.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

marco...the primary thing you are experiencing here is the difference in damping characteristics between wood and alloy....let me make an analogy here for better understanding....

Take a 20' long 2X4...you hold one end and let someone else hit the top of the other end with a hammer and if you were wearing a blindfold and earplugs?...you might be hard pressed to feel when the hammer came down....but still feel a slight dull thud...now do the same with a 20' length of 3" steel pipe and you may think the bones in your hand shattered...much the same between wood and alloy bows...however...

All is not lost with the alloys and there are many measures that can be taken to...uhem..."make them"...shoot as sweet as a wood bow...and here's some suggestions....

1. Limsavers: (on the limbs...to quell a great portion of the vibes before they ever reach the riser)

2. A Stabilizer: (one designed with an emphasis on reducing vibes)

3. String Silencers: (despite the fact that it's a target rig and don't care how loud it is?...I do this to quell the elongated string vibes and make it sweeter "more pleasant" shooting)

and finally?...one of the best moves I made in reducing sound and vibe on my PSE Zone riser was to remove the ILF spring loaded retention pins...and the removal of these springs and pins made a huge difference reducing the after shot buzz to virtually nothing...and took about 10 minutes to do start to shooting again...










now there's a couple shots in the vid below where you can hear an after shot buzz...but it's not the bow...it's the string buzzing my armguard...which happens from time to time...but removing those ILF fitting springs/pins and adding some stringjax silencers made a huge difference in both vibes and noise...but I myself still need to order up some limbsavers for this bow...where things will only get better...hope that helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Jinx ... form is really coming along eh ... bow sounds nice and quiet too.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> Jinx ... form is really coming along eh ... bow sounds nice and quiet too.


Yes and thanks Ben...I had a long hard struggle with TP...but now that I stopped struggling with TP and spend that same energy focusing on physical step-by-step execution and running my shot instead of the shot running me?...I can finally start putting into practice all the cool things I learned at Jenkins Clinic and more...like the stuff I learn here from a few significant posters...for instance...right now?...I just came in from shooting to fetch my coffee...and what I'm working on today?...is just 2 things...but it seems they work together so I need to practice them together...that being...

Keeping my shoulders relaxed (and down) through a smooth controlled draw. 

and I'm loving the relaxed feel of the low shoulder deal...just call me Mr. Limp Shoulders! :laugh:

Thanks again and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

14 strands of Dynaflight is way overbuilt for that bow, but I couldn't say for sure it's a main cause for vibration. I do know that some bows will have considerably more vibration with an overbuilt string.


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the good info, it looks like I am just not used to the metal riser, like you guy said, metal absorbes way less of the vibration then wood. 
The bow is pretty quiet, it's just more of a bad hand vibration, not much noise. 

I am gonna try the things that where suggested and see if it helps, right now I have those beaver hair string silencers on there and a 6 inch 12 ounce weight in the bottom bushing because I shoot Barebow. 
Maybe I get a chance to try some different limbs from someone at the range where I shoot to see if it makes a difference, and I am gonna try some limbsavers and remove those spring clips. 
If nothing helps I might have to get myself a wooded ilf riser like the tradtech pinnacle 2. 

Thanks again. 

Marco. 

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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

LBR said:


> 14 strands of Dynaflight is way overbuilt for that bow, but I couldn't say for sure it's a main cause for vibration. I do know that some bows will have considerably more vibration with an overbuilt string.


What kind of string would you suggest I use? This is the one that John at tradtech send with the bow for free. 
Thanks. 

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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

14 strands of Dynaflight '97 is a "one size fits all" string. It would work for 80+ lbs. That's just a standard "stock" string--trying to carry individual strings for every bow would be a big headache for a store like Lancaster.

I'd start with 18 strands of 8190. 8190 is a much smaller diameter strand, so 18 strands will actually be a smaller/lighter string than 14 of D-97. It's also stronger with less stretch/creep. Be sure to get it served for the type nock you use on your arrows.

Chad


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

LBR said:


> 14 strands of Dynaflight '97 is a "one size fits all" string. It would work for 80+ lbs. That's just a standard "stock" string--trying to carry individual strings for every bow would be a big headache for a store like Lancaster.
> 
> I'd start with 18 strands of 8190. 8190 is a much smaller diameter strand, so 18 strands will actually be a smaller/lighter string than 14 of D-97. It's also stronger with less stretch/creep. Be sure to get it served for the type nock you use on your arrows.
> 
> Chad


Thank you, I will see if I can find a place online where I can order that kind of string. 


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Bill, I discovered how to completely silence your Zone. When I watch your video I turn the sound off. Works great! (will be selling mine soon)

For the OP. I have a Forged Plus and really like it. I can't say it's any noisier than my other ILF Oly risers except for the Zone. The PSE Zone is a fine riser for shooting but it's the noisiest thing ever invented.

You might find some limbs more quiet but I think mainly you are seeing or hearing the difference between a wood bow and metal target bow. As for the vibration you say you're feeling. I have no answer for you. I shoot with a finger sling and barely touch the bow at the shot. I really don't feel anything but a tug on the sling. 

One last thought on the SF Forged Plus. I have several high-end risers including the Hoyt GMX and the WW Inno. None those risers allow me to shoot better scores than I shoot with the Forged Plus. If I'd known this would be the case I would never have purchased the Hoyt or the WW. It seems like all the SF gear I've owned is more than good enough for shooting great scores. At least for me. Their Elite Plus carbon limbs at 400 dollars match anything I've ever shot no matter the cost.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Marco -

The string John sent is correct. 
If in doubt or need a consensus, go upstairs to the FITA forum and ask.

Apparently most are using over built strings of one type or another since matching a string to a bow isn't necessary when needing to group at 70M or shoot near perfect rounds at 20 yds. 

Agree with Stone, my only concern about the SF Forged was the grip, and that too is growing on me. It's a super riser. 

Viper1 out.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Wondered how long that would take...

Here's a thought. Do you buy "one size fits all" arrows? Bows? Clothes?

Obviously that string will work. Would a string built specifically for your bow and draw weight work better, or at least be more comfortble? I think so.

Do your nocks fit the string properly? If not, at worst get the string re-served and that can help.

For what it's worth...I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but strings have been my profession and passion for the last 20 years or so. I don't know it all, but I do know a good bit about strings. I'll be happy to put my knowledge of them up against anyone else, and unlike others I will be happy to give you specific answers to anything you ask about me or my credentials.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Marco, just my thoughts...

First, listen to Viper. As far as I'm concerned, he's a tuning expert.

You never said what you like to shoot most or what the bow will be used for (unless I missed it). If you are shooting long distance targets or 3D where fast provides flat then an FF string and matched arrows (usually light and skinny - like Redlines) is almost mandatory. However, if you are shooting indoors, like I do mostly, then personally, I have found that a B50 string really quiets the bow limbs and provides a much softer feel on my Das - it's not as 'jumpy/jittery' on release. A couple of years ago I shot with the string bare but it seems that I am now more sensitive to hearing some frequencies of vibrations so I added fur silencers to get that dull 'twonk'. Indoors, speed doesn't matter as long as the arrows are matched and tuned to center and not sound...sound and vibration is only another indicator of how well the bow/arrow combo is tuned.

If it's all about vibrations, then you already have some terrific advice on that.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I'll add some initial thoughts:

Had you switched from the Sage to a longbow, you would have noticed a radical feel in the hand ranging from "wow" to "holy cow!". After a few weeks and some grip adjustment you would no longer observe the contrast from your original bow's feel (unless you're shooting the original bow daily, as well). 

You have switched from a 62" bow to a quite long 70" bow of a different build. You've got bigger wings flapping on that sucker along with a different grip geometry, to boot. It will indeed feel different on the shot, and perhaps to the negative at first. A few weeks may present a different perspective. 

As to the tiller and initial limb bolt setting ... either using the instructions that came with the bow or someone's solid recommendation on this or the FITA forum, make certain that you are dead-nuts on with your initial settings for each of these components. _Make sure you understand the difference in tiller measurement you need to be reading on the lower limb versus the upper limb_. A proper tiller within specs will ensure the least vibration on the shot, and needs to be adjusted in combination with the general draw weight limb bolt positioning for overall performance. Two bow squares placed on the string at the riser's outer areas can give a tiller reading instantly and allow for easier adjustment without having to continually move a single bow square back and forth during the process.

Your string should be just fine as it is. However, where you place your nocking point can affect the feel of a shot, so be aware of that as you watch your arrow flight. Small adjustments here can not only achieve straighter arrow flight but also allow the limb timing to unfold more smoothly and reduce perceived vibration in the hand.

"Melting" your hand a bit more into the grip and allowing it to find the grip's "desire" can often change the feel of the shot for the better. 

If your adjustments are spot-on, and you've done the string silencer and stab processes, go into "patience" mode for at least a month and let yourself grow accustomed to the bow. Sometimes all problems simply disappear over a short period of adjustment with any new bow. Give "Plan A" a good month or two before sweating a radical, expensive "Plan B".

Good luck.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Bradd -

You bring up an interesting point. 

In a lot of cases, a B-50 string will be somewhat quieter than most of the "harder" FF type material, but it's for the exact same reason that a "skinny" or thinner string may be. Both will stretch more on shock than a softer / thicker string. That means some lost energy. The flip side is that both will be less stable over extended courses of fire. 

How much of a difference that change can make in a person's shooting depends on the demands he's placing on his equipment and his skill level. 
Given the riser and limbs in discussion by the OP, I'd always go with the most stable - based on both physical theory and empirical evidence. 

Viper1 out.


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

Thin Man said:


> I'll add some initial thoughts:
> 
> Had you switched from the Sage to a longbow, you would have noticed a radical feel in the hand ranging from "wow" to "holy cow!". After a few weeks and some grip adjustment you would no longer observe the contrast from your original bow's feel (unless you're shooting the original bow daily, as well).
> 
> ...


That's some great advice, I think it just have get used to it, i only have been shooting for a few months and only with the sage, I didn't expect such a different feel with an aluminum longer bow, it does pull very smooth though at my 30 inch draw. I am just gonna try some of the things that where mentioned and then I will just keep shooting only the ilf until I get used to it. Thanks 
Marco 

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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

*"However, where you place your nocking point can affect the feel of a shot, so be aware of that as you watch your arrow flight."*

This is really good advice. If the nocking point is too high the shaft will slam down onto the shelf causing vibrations and if it's too low the shaft will 'screech' across the shelf.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Had you switched from the Sage to a longbow, you would have noticed a radical feel in the hand ranging from "wow" to "holy cow!".


That would depend on the type longbow. Some have zero felt shock, some will rattle your teeth.



> Your string should be just fine as it is.


What do you base this on? My opinion is based on years of making strings with various materials, making strings for this type bow, talking to countless archers from rank amatuer to professional, and being involved with the world's top bowstring material manufacturer.



> ...but it's for the exact same reason that a "skinny" or thinner string may be. Both will stretch more on shock than a softer / thicker string.


That is incorrect, at least in the context of this thread. I'm not an advocate of "skinny", or more accurately low strand count strings. The smaller diameter 8190 string I mentioned would be stronger than the larger diameter D'97 string and have less stretch. On a 34# bow you could drop down to a lot fewer strands and there would still be no noticeable stretch. Each strand of either material is around 100# test. To imply there would be a difference in stability between the 18 strand 8190 and a 14 strand D'97 on a 34# bow is just evidence of a lack of knowledge of the two materials. If anything, the 8190 would be more stable.

To get back to the original problem...the 8190 string would be a bit lighter, which might help with the excessive vibration. That's just a guess, since I am not familiar with your particular bow, but it can and has made a difference on other bows.

If you were shooting your Sage with the "factory" string, and the new bow has noticeably more shock, there is something wrong. The Sage is a great little bow with the right string--the string that comes with it isn't so great. A good string makes a world of difference with that bow--this I do know from experience. If you put a different string on your Sage, then you know the difference the right string can make.

Chad


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I should have mentioned ... 

Your brace height can present several sweet spots along its spectrum. One is where your noise on the shot is reduced to the lowest level. The other is where your shot simply feels the best in hand. However, these two sweet spots aren't necessarily at the same brace height. 

After sticking with a specific setup for a while and getting used to it, you can adjust the brace height a bit and live with that for a while (unless it is immediately worse for any reason). Lather, rinse, and repeat over a period of time. Take notes for comparison. Don't be afraid to dwell for a while at either the minimum or maximum recommended brace heights. Somewhere along the way you'll probably hit, and then pass, an ideal brace height for your tastes. Once you do that, readjust to the good one (as per your notes) and call it a day.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Just in case it may be helpful...here is some tuning, form and exercise info:

http://veraxservice.net/arch/tune.html

http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/coaching_videos.php


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Thin Man has it right in my mind. Start at the lowest setting provided by the manufacturer. Go 1/4 below. Shoot a bunch of arrows, maybe even over a couple of days. Raise it up to the minimum and do the same thing, then 1/8" higher and document it, and try again. At some point the brace will be just right (or best you will get) in noise and vibration but it may be a very small difference. When you change arrows you have to do it all over again so become comfortable with change.

All tuning is this way. Adjust and try. If it's better, keep going. As soon as it's worse, go back and leave it alone.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Some basics:

Set your BH to the maximum, for a 70" bow that is +9.5"
Set your tiller to 0
Make sure nothing is loose
Shoot with a finger/wrist/bow sling

If you are running the bolts full out (minimum preload) then you might need an even higher BH. Long, light limbs tend to need a bit of help to reduce vibrations.

Your string is fine.

-Grant


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Grant, can you tell why the string is "fine" not even knowing whether or not the nock fit is correct? Could a lighter (mass weight) string not be an aid in reducing vibration? What is your experience with strings?

Like you said--long, light limbs tend to need a bit of help. Why eliminate the string? Any experienced archer, and some not so experienced, knows that in some cases the string can make a huge difference in how a bow feels and shoots.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Grant has cut to the chase with ruthless economy for perhaps the ultimate in starting points short of formal tuning. 

I envy his epigrammatic, grandiloquent magniloquence.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If there is something actually "wrong" with the bow then a new string isn't going to do much/anything. If he gets it to the point where it's running really nicely and wants that last little bit, then maybe a new string is in order. Same reason I wouldn't ever recommend string silencers before someone gets their bow shooting as quietly as possible without them, I had band-aide solutions.

I build endless strings for myself and a few other friends. I am fanatical in my build-up and accept only finished products with the minimum of serving and twists. Right now I'm doing a show-down between XS2 and Rhino with the XS2 leading slightly (16 and 20st respectively). I have a 68" full Oly set-up shooting 7.5gpp with hunting silence and a 7.75" BH. Can't say the same for my Barebow stringwalking rig though, it's a loud bugger right now (trying some tiller stuff).

-Grant


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

grantmac said:


> Some basics:
> 
> Set your BH to the maximum, for a 70" bow that is +9.5"
> Set your tiller to 0
> ...


I actually have it set right now at 9.5 brace height and 0 tiller, I don't have any kind of sling though, still have to get that, it looks like I just have to shoot the bow a lot and then after I get used to it I will do some more fine tuning, it's great to receive so many great responses on a question on here, thank you guys, I appreciate all the help I get. 

I am not in to competitions or anything, I just shoot at the park here in long Beach, California where they have a range up to 100 meter. I like to shoot anywhere from 10 to 100 meter, just for fun but it's nice if the equipment performs as good as it can. 

Marco. 

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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

Those big ol limbs will want to flop around like a wet noodle if you don't put enough pre load on them. If your tiller and nock point is correct, I'd echo Grants recommendations; higher brace height and/or crank the limb bolts down further. 

If your nocks fit properly and the string is short enough to give you the brace height you're after, don't bother changing the string.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jeb-D. said:


> Those big ol limbs will want to flop around like a wet noodle if you don't put enough pre load on them. If your tiller and nock point is correct, I'd echo Grants recommendations; higher brace height and/or crank the limb bolts down further.
> 
> If your nocks fit properly and the string is short enough to give you the brace height you're after, don't bother changing the string.


I concur...70 inches is a lot of limb...couple that with relatively low poundage hence low static tension going into an alloy riser?...there's a recipe for vibes.


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## Scott G. (Jul 27, 2005)

Marcocb8,
Just want you to know that your not alone. I am just starting to learn about and setup a BB field rig. Been a bow hunter for years and this is pretty new to me as well. I have a SF+ riser and it feels like a tuning fork at the shot. Not overly loud, just buzz'z for a second or two after release. I have same string(s) as you with cat whiskers tied on, and have shot long and medium limbs in the 35-45# range OTF. played with BH from 8"-9.5", played with even tiller up to 1/4positive, added up to 20oz. BB weights, and shoot arrows around 400grns. (Cuz that's all I have). Ran limb bolts all the way in and every turn or two to a max of 10 turns out. Some combinations of BH, tiller, and preload felt nicer than others but I certainly haven't found "a sweet spot". Still buzzy. I'm stumped as well. Especially since My Hoyt 21" Excel Riser and medium winex limbs just make a nice quiet thump. Like a nice huntin bow. I wish I could see and shoot someone else's setup so I knew what to expect from a field rig. Maybe it's just a normal feeling for a longer bow? But most likely I just don't know what the heck I'm doing? Ha! Next step is to add some limb savers. 
Ill keep watching this and let you know if I have any luck getting mine to calm down. If not I may be looking for a different riser. Good luck and thanks to all of the very knowledgable and helpful people here! Scott


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> If there is something actually "wrong" with the bow then a new string isn't going to do much/anything.


Never said it would. I do know that a lot of bows shoot like a totally different bow with a string made for that bow, primarily the draw weight. I know for a fact that, at least on some bows (I haven't shot them all, and won't make such a silly claim as to say I have), that something as simple as changing the string can make a bow that is very harsh into a bow that is a pleasure to shoot.

At least nobody went so far as to say anything I said was wrong--just disagree because??


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## marcocb8 (Mar 13, 2013)

Scott G. said:


> Marcocb8,
> Just want you to know that your not alone. I am just starting to learn about and setup a BB field rig. Been a bow hunter for years and this is pretty new to me as well. I have a SF+ riser and it feels like a tuning fork at the shot. Not overly loud, just buzz'z for a second or two after release. I have same string(s) as you with cat whiskers tied on, and have shot long and medium limbs in the 35-45# range OTF. played with BH from 8"-9.5", played with even tiller up to 1/4positive, added up to 20oz. BB weights, and shoot arrows around 400grns. (Cuz that's all I have). Ran limb bolts all the way in and every turn or two to a max of 10 turns out. Some combinations of BH, tiller, and preload felt nicer than others but I certainly haven't found "a sweet spot". Still buzzy. I'm stumped as well. Especially since My Hoyt 21" Excel Riser and medium winex limbs just make a nice quiet thump. Like a nice huntin bow. I wish I could see and shoot someone else's setup so I knew what to expect from a field rig. Maybe it's just a normal feeling for a longer bow? But most likely I just don't know what the heck I'm doing? Ha! Next step is to add some limb savers.
> Ill keep watching this and let you know if I have any luck getting mine to calm down. If not I may be looking for a different riser. Good luck and thanks to all of the very knowledgable and helpful people here! Scott


Scott, interesting to hear that you are having the same issue as me, and with the same riser. 
You said your hoyt Excel doesn't have that problem right, have you tried those medium winex limbs on the forged+? 
I wonder if those 4 extra inches in riser length are causing the problem. 
Anyway as soon as I get a chance I will be trying some of the tips that where posted and I will give you an update. 

Thanks and good luck. 

Marco 

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