# USA ARchery rant



## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I just went through the list and know several people who shot in different "styles" and age groups. I hate incompetence, shame that people who try to interpret the rules either do not understand it, or .......


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Redding-Redding-Redding, Oh did I say REDDING, that is why they no longer get any of my money and years ago I stepped down as the NMAA State President and stopped officiating in a Red Shirt.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

archer_nm said:


> Redding-Redding-Redding, Oh did I say REDDING, that is why they no longer get any of my money and years ago I stepped down as the NMAA State President and stopped officiating in a Red Shirt.


Yep, I'll be ready..  A few weeks for indoor and then 100% all outdoors. Right after Louisville .


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

what about Yankton Ren. or... another possible strategy..Don't let em get the best of you. it would be much better if you took a USA record and then brought up your grievances in person.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Ben does it every year. Should ask him how he does it. 

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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

or call USA ARchery HQ and ask someone rather than go through event planners and emails. That would be what I would do. If other people are doing it, then there is a work around.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I am also in trad recurve. The goofy part is there is only one global "senior" division for the trad events. It's not like you can pick masters trad recurve or cadet trad recurve to remain consistent.

Not picking on the kid, more pointing out a disparity, one of the competitors in trad recurve is a kid who is also signed up for JOAD BB. And some of the trad recurve people are signed up for other trad divisions. Considering the trad divisions need all the numbers they can get you'd think they'd make it easier.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Yep, I know people who are signed up in masters BB and trad recurve senior. The official word was from the rules person at USA Archery she states you cannot do 2 age groups even if its a different bow style.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

It is hard to deal with an organization with a severe case of cranial rectimitis.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stock answer is always "no you can't do that." It's unfortunately part of the institutional culture within USArchery and has been for some time now. No real attempt to find solutions or accommodate the recreational archer. Saw this again just the other day when I inquired about a recent change in the JOAD/AA program. Unfortunately there are too many officials and staff who either have a stick up their you-know-what or zero experience with what they are responsible for, which is why most recreational archers find the NFAA much more to their liking. 

That could change if more people within USArchery could find a sense of humor and realize they aren't "all that." But so long as they are the governing body for the Olympic sport of archery, it won't change. In fact, it has only gotten worse in the dozen or so years I've been involved. You have too many archers, coaches, parents, sponsors, judges and staff all wanting to associate themselves with an "Olympic" sport. I see it all the time - coaches, parents and archers who all throw the word "Olympic" around very loosely whenever they wish to add credibility to what they are doing. Heck, I even know several folks who have credited themselves with coaching me, but only after I made the Olympic team. Guess they didn't figure I'd ever find out...

2004 was the end of an era. It simply hasn't been the same organization since and the membership is quite divided as to whether that's a good thing or not. Depends on which side of the fence you're on - the recreational archer or the prospective "team" member/parent/coach. It is quite the divide within the org. and it's really not hard to tell which side someone stands on and where all the resources go.

At some point in 2004, a decision was made to shift the focus from the recreational membership to the development of teams, whether written or unwritten. And we've been on that ride ever since.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Well in the long run it works out better for me. I save the expense of a 14 hour drive to SLC and back, the airfare to Alabama this summer (and motel/rental car costs) and that savings allows me to add Yankton for the NFAA Outdoor target onto my already very busy archery calendar. In between all of that I need to figure out how to schedule my families move to Texas in there also..LOL


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

I've been screwed so many times by US Archery it is hard to count. 
When ever the focus is entirely on winning you inevitably slide into a bunch of rules Nazi's. It's is an attempt to mitigate the discord among archers scratching and fighting to be the very best and using every rule and advantage to leverage that goal. It leaves the recreational archery shaking their heads and wondering how humans of that ilk avoid being shot. It really creates an organization without a lot of fun left in it. Yes the very top 5% of the archers depend on it for their ticket to the Olympics but for the rest of us it becomes a disgusting cesspool of cut throat competition fun be damned. Makes for a real pleasant environment for youth programs doesn't it?


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> ...and archers who all throw the word "Olympic" around very loosely whenever they wish to add credibility to what they are doing.


Oops - I might be guilty of this because I have been known to say "John Magera was an Olympic archer and he says..."


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Heck, I even know several folks who have credited themselves with coaching me, but only after I made the Olympic team. Guess they didn't figure I'd ever find out...


Hey limbwalker, how old are you? I was wondering if I can take credit for your success and say I was your coach too. :icon_1_lol:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Go for it! Why not? LOL.

Arcus, if it's legit, then so be it. But every time I see a newspaper reporter, TV reporter, parent, coach or whomever say "future Olympian" I always want to puke.

We all know it when we see it - people who attach that "Olympic" title to this sport when they need or want something. The irony to me is how well the NFAA does without it. And I think everyone who has shot in both org's will tell you which events are more fun.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Hold up.... Let's chillax here. I've seen Ben sign up for senior barebow and masters recurve. Two ages and two different classes. Maybe the problem here is the right people aren't getting contacted. That may be something we can find out. Then we can let everyone know how to do it once we learn who the right people are to get in touch with. 
As for which events you have more fun at..... I've had fun at all the events from USA, NFAA, IBO and others. Maybe because I ignore the nasty comments made buy disgruntled people (ever been at a high-school basketball game and listen to the vile language spewed from the crowd) and focus on the positive. Heck, we deal with that kind (bitc#ing about anything and everything) of people no matter what we do. 

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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Ren one good point you don't have to worry about your bow passing through that 4.812 ring anymore


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

2413gary said:


> Ren one good point you don't have to worry about your bow passing through that 4.812 ring anymore


He is going to sights and stuff. Wouldn't matter anyway😛

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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Demmer said:


> Hold up.... Let's chillax here. I've seen Ben sign up for senior barebow and masters recurve. Two ages and two different classes. Maybe the problem here is the right people aren't getting contacted. That may be something we can find out. Then we can let everyone know how to do it once we learn who the right people are to get in touch with.
> As for which events you have more fun at..... I've had fun at all the events from USA, NFAA, IBO and others. Maybe because I ignore the nasty comments made buy disgruntled people (ever been at a high-school basketball game and listen to the vile language spewed from the crowd) and focus on the positive. Heck, we deal with that kind (bitc#ing about anything and everything) of people no matter what we do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I'm wondering why one would need to weed through an organization to find the few individuals who aren't punitive?
Shouldn't the culture be positive and inclusive?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Hold up.... Let's chillax here. I've seen Ben sign up for senior barebow and masters recurve. Two ages and two different classes. Maybe the problem here is the right people aren't getting contacted. That may be something we can find out. Then we can let everyone know how to do it once we learn who the right people are to get in touch with.
> As for which events you have more fun at..... I've had fun at all the events from USA, NFAA, IBO and others. Maybe because I ignore the nasty comments made buy disgruntled people (ever been at a high-school basketball game and listen to the vile language spewed from the crowd) and focus on the positive. Heck, we deal with that kind (bitc#ing about anything and everything) of people no matter what we do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


John,
The head of (copied to get it right) USA Archery, National Events Manager, Officials and Rules Program Coordinator has clearly stated in her email to me in regards to this:
I have been the National Events manager for USA Archery for only about 4 years so I cannot speak to what has transpired before. However, I have been consistent in my application of the age class rule and have asked the separate event directors of the national indoor events to apply the rule as it should be. Also, what happens at state and local level events is not under my direct supervision or control and the rule may not be enforced.

I am sorry if my ruling does not agree with what you thought should be applied, but hope that you'll join us at an event in the future.



So there you have it, the top of the heap. So even though it has happened in the past, and I know of a couple people that slid through this year, it apparently should not happen (whether we agree with the ruling or not). I think its just another rule that is being "literally" enforced instead of using common sense. I agree you should only be allowed to shoot in one age group per bow discipline, but since they do not offer Masters in any of the Trad classes, and I want to shoot BB also, why not let anyone sign up for Masters (or appropriate age group) in one class and then in whatever age group that is offered in smaller classes? WHat is the point? I in no way meant this to turn into a rip the organization, but hoped maybe the supporters of USA Archery would take this to task and express their concern with said organization as I have also. AS an add on, let me state clearly that I might not agree with her ruling, she never once was less than totally professional and I respect that. Especially for you who know me, I can sometimes be a little bit "aggressive" even when I am not trying to be. My 30 years of being the boss sometimes comes through a little harsh.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> He is going to sights and stuff. Wouldn't matter anyway&#55357;&#56859;
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Not till this fall....  Even if my new bow is almost here...


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Demmer said:


> Hold up.... Let's chillax here. I've seen Ben sign up for senior barebow and masters recurve. Two ages and two different classes. Maybe the problem here is the right people aren't getting contacted. That may be something we can find out. Then we can let everyone know how to do it once we learn who the right people are to get in touch with.
> As for which events you have more fun at..... I've had fun at all the events from USA, NFAA, IBO and others. Maybe because I ignore the nasty comments made buy disgruntled people (ever been at a high-school basketball game and listen to the vile language spewed from the crowd) and focus on the positive. Heck, we deal with that kind (bitc#ing about anything and everything) of people no matter what we do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I am guessing it is something in the computer process and perhaps even dependent on which event you sign up for first. Since JOAD people routinely do two events, which seem to be treated like separate tournaments, it doesn't stop the kid from doing age group BB and then senior trad recurve. But in terms of the single event under the current registration process they may have some sort of well-meaning protection built into the system. "No, he signed up senior for x, he couldn't be meaning master for something else." As recently as two years ago it was paper entries so either they didn't care or it slid by the people populating the entry lists. But you now enter online, paypal, etc., all computerized. The OP actually shows up in both divisions but not with two line times. I am guessing the computer didn't know what to do with it.

At which point the person should know what to do with it. To be fair, I look at the rules and it does say can't shoot in two locations and can't shoot two classes. But the quirk that one can shoot JOAD Nationals and then a senior class in normal Nationals, but not two age groups within senior Nationals -- even when given no choice -- strikes me as something they ought to fix. There should be an exception for the trad classes at least. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a winking acknowledgment of same before the computers got involved which is why everyone can remember people double dipping.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Ren, that makes some sense. Maybe not common sense. Here's the thing, can't really complain too much about this, because others (NFAA) you cannot shoot two.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Azzurri said:


> Since JOAD people routinely do two events, which seem to be treated like separate tournaments, it doesn't stop the kid from doing age group BB and then senior trad recurve.


The JOAD Nationals and the regular people Nationals are two different competitions.

Anyhow, this is all about money frankly and if USA Archery doesn't want to collect another $75 smackers for people who want to shoot more than once, they're losing out on some dollars. Just my opinion. 

Seriously. They could make a few dollars more if they got the broom out of their butt.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Ren, we need to work on the nfaa dropping the half face 90cm target for the second day of target nationals for the single stringers. It's too much to ask for longbow, trad, and barebow to shoot at a 45cm target at 40, 50, and 60 yards. They need to allow us to shoot at the full 90cm. 

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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Ren, that makes some sense. Maybe not common sense. Here's the thing, can't really complain too much about this, because others (NFAA) you cannot shoot two.


No because of timing you cannot. However, if you have different line times, why not? I shoot 2-3 at my State indoor events (NFAA Sanctioned)like this weekend I am shooting 2 (BB and BH) and even at NFAA sectionals you can.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Ren, we need to work on the nfaa dropping the half face 90cm target for the second day of target nationals for the single stringers. It's too much to ask for longbow, trad, and barebow to shoot at a 45cm target at 40, 50, and 60 yards. They need to allow us to shoot at the full 90cm.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Hit up your State director with a proposal, as will I. I also will bring this up to Bob B.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ren I saw the same issues in ArcheryGB, not all but a fair few had a 'cant do' attitude. They sometimes forget why they're placed in their position.

One English woman living in France wanted to shoot WA3D for England and French rule didn't allow her on the team (she was beating Encarna Lazaro in competition), she was willing to travel to UK to shoot all the required qualifying rounds, first they wouldn't give her membership without a UK address and then sent her the dates for qualification shoots after three of the six rounds had already been shot. :BangHead:

I'm fortunate Estonia allows me to shoot on their team, ArcheryGB treated me in a similar way. I had the GB Field team manager in my corner but even that didn't help.

Don't give up Ren. :thumbs_up


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

He will be back 


Demmer said:


> He is going to sights and stuff. Wouldn't matter anyway😛
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

rsarns said:


> No because of timing you cannot. However, if you have different line times, why not? I shoot 2-3 at my State indoor events (NFAA Sanctioned)like this weekend I am shooting 2 (BB and BH) and even at NFAA sectionals you can.


Actually, timing for you, you can. Adults shoot at 11 and seniors at 3. 😛. We have two shoot times at States, and I shoot two classes there. I understand if possible, why not. 

Should one be labled national champion in two classes at the same time? That should be a debate in itself. 

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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Actually, timing for you, you can. Adults shoot at 11 and seniors at 3. 😛. We have two shoot times at States, and I shoot two classes there. I understand if possible, why not.
> 
> Should one be labled national champion in two classes at the same time? That should be a debate in itself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Sure why not, I held USA Archery BB Master, NFAA Indoor Longbow and NFAA Outdoor Longbow for the same year... LOL Have you not also held more than 1 division National Championship in the same year? FSLR/L and Trad for NFAA and USA Archery BB?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The issue is a bit deeper than that. 

From a database standpoint, an archer is indexed by multiple items.

1) Name. Joe Smith and Joseph Smith technically are two different people.

2) USA Archery Member Number. This allows Rcherz to understand that a "Joe Smith" in Latvia (that doesn't have a USA Archery member number) isn't the same "Joe Smith" that's from Long Island, North Dakota. (And yes, there isn't a Long Island, North Dakota - I made that up for purposes of this discussion). It also proves that you have a current membership that doesn't expire before the tournament begins.

3) Date of birth. This is used for multiple areas - determining the logic used for Class (Bowman/Cub/Cadet/Junior/Senior/Master), and ultimately interfacing with World Archery's Athlete Database to provide a World Archery Athlete ID number.

Here's the fun part of the logic lockdown in the database. And it's in the published rules too.

Once you choose your class, based on age, for that event - *you're stuck in that age class*. So, if you choose Traditional Longbow Senior Men, you cannot shoot Recurve Masters Men 60, you have to shoot Recurve Senior Men for your second part. But, if I decided to shoot Barebow Senior Men, and shoot Compound Senior Men (note that both are in the same age class), I could do that because the logic rules allow it to happen.

There is a way to "mess" with the registration. I don't recommend it. It entails creating an alternate archer, complete with different date of birth and USA Archery Member number. 

So, If I was to want to shoot two different divisions AND class, I would create a different "Steve" entry in Rcherz, my wife's USA Archery member number, and her date of birth. As long as some of the indexes are different, you technically have a different archer in the database.

Now, in the past, the regional tournament director was in total control of what happened at that particular location. AND - final scores were transmitted via Excel merged files, so you could manually have an archer have multiple entries in different divisions and classes...even up to last year.

And finally...

Putting my judge hat on here as well, I do want to remind people that the USA Archery National Indoor Championships are a Star FITA recognized event. Therefore, in World Archery Rules, Book 2, Chapter 4, it states that:



> 4.2.2.1. At each competition an athlete can compete in one class only. This applies to all classes for which he is eligible.


Which basically means that World Archery rules pretty much lock you down from shooting different age classes at the same tournament. Since Indoor Nationals are a Star FITA event, you technically can't shoot two different classes to begin with.

I hope this helps. It's not the exact answers people are wanting, but it shows the reasons why USA Archery is doing what they are doing.

-Steve


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

You know that's not what it was meant as. I'm talking about one event, and two national championship titles. 

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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Demmer said:


> You know that's not what it was meant as. I'm talking about one event, and two national championship titles.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Based on the current rules - yes. You can, as long as you shot both titles at the same Indoor location/event, and you stay within the same age class.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> You know that's not what it was meant as. I'm talking about one event, and two national championship titles.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I didn't take it that way..... but once again, why not? If someone truly enjoys shooting 2 or 3 styles, and is competitive in those disciplines why not? However that is another debate.  Its over, rant is over... on to the range... oooh one last thing. So if someone shoots in the BB Masters class, and sets a new record for it and it also happens to break the Seniors class, why are they allowed to claim the record for both age groups then? Yes... it has been done in the past.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

😆

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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

How about just shooting your age class, and if you shoot a higher score than the younger guys (if you're a masters) or the older kids (if you're a JOAD), you get to claim that title too? That would be pretty simple and I don't see how anyone could complain. They will of course, but so what.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> How about just shooting your age class, and if you shoot a higher score than the younger guys (if you're a masters) or the older kids (if you're a JOAD), you get to claim that title too?


Well, in that case, they shouldn't shoot the age divisions in the first place (unless they have different rounds), only award records based on them. :dontknow:


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Beastmaster said:


> The issue is a bit deeper than that.
> 
> From a database standpoint, an archer is indexed by multiple items.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but World Archery doesn't recognize Barebow or Traditional for Indoor Target. So if USAA wants to hide behind WA rules, this entire discussion wouldn't be happening since the classes wouldn't even exists.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Ren, what about registering under NFAA membership. USAA members can compete in NFAA events using the USAA membership, and NFAA members can compete in USAA events using their NFAA membership. I just go through that get a temporary USAA membership process via the NFAA membership number. This might be how Ben does it.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Just so everyone knows why this thread was started, Ren found out that I chose to shoot the Indoor Nationals this year in Salt Lake City. Upon hearing this his knees got wobbly and his arms started shaking so he decided to withdraw( good decision):teeth::teeth:. The best part of Rens withdrawing is that I couldn't get a spot on the 9:00 a.m. line but now it opened up for me with his withdrawal. Sweet!!!!. Ren, you are such a good friend. How many of us would go through all that just to let a friend have an earlier shoot time so they could get on the road back to California earlier in the day. The two class discussion has been interesting as for the last three years I have been competing in senior barebow and master 60 in Olympic recurve. Something is amiss.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

2413gary said:


> He will be back


He is running scared. Worried that I am getting better and better that I will be removing all of his records. So he is switching styles and fleeing the state.

Ren, when you are driving south to start the moving process this summer, just drop by the house and leave that old WFX25. It would be less stuff to worry about, and I will put that bow to good use.

Pete


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Yeah, but World Archery doesn't recognize Barebow or Traditional for Indoor Target. So if USAA wants to hide behind WA rules, this entire discussion wouldn't be happening since the classes wouldn't even exists.


By that logic...

Then you wouldn't have Bowman, Cub, or Masters then either.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Just so everyone knows why this thread was started, Ren found out that I chose to shoot the Indoor Nationals this year in Salt Lake City. Upon hearing this his knees got wobbly and his arms started shaking so he decided to withdraw( good decision):teeth::teeth:. The best part of Rens withdrawing is that I couldn't get a spot on the 9:00 a.m. line but now it opened up for me with his withdrawal. Sweet!!!!. Ren, you are such a good friend. How many of us would go through all that just to let a friend have an earlier shoot time so they could get on the road back to California earlier in the day. The two class discussion has been interesting as for the last three years I have been competing in senior barebow and master 60 in Olympic recurve. Something is amiss.


Ben, you made me laugh... thanks. I signed up for Salt Lake City because I want to shoot against the best, and I enjoy nothing more than having you shake my hand and tell me congrats...  I am glad my withdrawing worked out for you to get an earlier time, but just remember who will be taking your money again this year in Redding and Nevada City...


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Mr. Roboto said:


> He is running scared. Worried that I am getting better and better that I will be removing all of his records. So he is switching styles and fleeing the state.
> 
> Ren, when you are driving south to start the moving process this summer, just drop by the house and leave that old WFX25. It would be less stuff to worry about, and I will put that bow to good use.
> 
> Pete


Pete, Records are meant to be broken, and am sure all of mine will be broken by the next generation as they get older. Just now they can't break my outdoor records from the kiddie stake like Danny did.. 

Trying to arrange the move to happen after NFAA Outdoor Nat's and before school starts for the son. Its going to be hectic.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Well, in that case, they shouldn't shoot the age divisions in the first place (unless they have different rounds), only award records based on them. :dontknow:


Not the same logic at all. Sorry.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Not the same logic at all. Sorry.


How so?

I don't have dog in this, that's for sure, but your suggestion that the records should be awarded regardless of the age category people are actually shooting in made me wonder if that could cause any perverse incentives? Why shoot in the Masters division if you can shoot in the Sr. division and still earn records for Masters division? Why only award the Sr. division title for a Masters division-eligible shooter shooting Sr if the score was higher than the Masters division competitors? That is, why follow your logic only for records and not for winning divisions? I'm not seeing the bright line on that.

Seems simpler to me to award records for the division people shoot to shoot in rather than to award them for both their chosen division *and* other age division they are eligible for. :dontknow:


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Beastmaster said:


> By that logic...
> 
> Then you wouldn't have Bowman, Cub, or Masters then either.


Yup, that is one of the nice things about USAA has over WA.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

rsarns said:


> Pete, Records are meant to be broken, and am sure all of mine will be broken by the next generation as they get older. Just now they can't break my outdoor records from the kiddie stake like Danny did..
> 
> Trying to arrange the move to happen after NFAA Outdoor Nat's and before school starts for the son. Its going to be hectic.


I just might have to shoot Senior at Darrington to have one last time to shoot with you before you move to Texas.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> How so?
> 
> I don't have dog in this, that's for sure, but your suggestion that the records should be awarded regardless of the age category people are actually shooting in made me wonder if that could cause any perverse incentives? Why shoot in the Masters division if you can shoot in the Sr. division and still earn records for Masters division? Why only award the Sr. division title for a Masters division-eligible shooter shooting Sr if the score was higher than the Masters division competitors? That is, why follow your logic only for records and not for winning divisions? I'm not seeing the bright line on that.
> 
> Seems simpler to me to award records for the division people shoot to shoot in rather than to award them for both their chosen division *and* other age division they are eligible for. :dontknow:


You're sharper than that. I didn't say "regardless of age category." 

What I said is, those who are entitled to "shoot up" should be able to claim the title in not just the division they enter, but in the higher divisions as well. So any Junior who shoots a higher score than the Seniors should win the whole thing, as should any Masters who does the same. If not, then they win the Junior or Masters division. 

It's not that hard of a concept to follow. But why should a Junior or Masters division archer have to be satisfied with a Junior or Masters win if they beat EVERYONE in the field? I don't get it.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

IMO, an athlete should only be eligible for awards and records in the Class/Division they've registered in at the time the round is recorded. Shooting with/against peers is factor that affects performance and there's potentially less pressure when that factor is removed.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

nestly said:


> IMO, an athlete should only be eligible for awards and records in the Class/Division they've registered in at the time the round is recorded. Shooting with/against peers is factor that affects performance and there's potentially less pressure when that factor is removed.


Let me see if I've got this right. If I am a master 60+ and choose not to shoot that class because my fellow master 60+ competitors are shooting scores 200 points less than I shoot, and I choose to shoot against John Demmer in senior class then there is less pressure on me?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

LOL. Ben is right. 

And if this is a problem, then explain why a Masters or Junior gets to claim the Senior record. 

It's not a difficult principle to understand. Register in the division you belong, but if it so happens you beat the younger ( in the case of the masters ) or older (in the case of the juniors) archers, then you earn those titles as well. 

Of course, this only applies to an event like Indoor Nationals where the scores can be compared. Outdoors is a different issue since there are different fields and shooting times.

But this is "outside the box" thinking and that is not allowed in organizations like USArchery. LOL.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

itbeso said:


> Let me see if I've got this right. If I am a master 60+ and choose not to shoot that class because my fellow master 60+ competitors are shooting scores 200 points less than I shoot, and I choose to shoot against John Demmer in senior class then there is less pressure on me?


Perhaps not in that specific example, but the conditions you described could be reversed, which could give a distinct advantage to the person that elected not to shoot in the class they "belong". Are there other sports you can give as example where awards and/or records are issued for a class/division the competitor is not registered to competing in?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Getting back to the original question though, unless scheduling is prohibitive, I believe organizations should put more effort into accommodating archers that wish to register and compete in multiple classes.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

nestly said:


> Getting back to the original question though, unless scheduling is prohibitive, I believe organizations should put more effort into accommodating archers that wish to register and compete in multiple classes.


Couldn't agree more. In response to your question though, for example, Alan Webb broke the national high school mile run record while competing in a race against professional runners. There are many other cases of this type of competition resulting in records being set.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> You're sharper than that. I didn't say "regardless of age category."
> 
> What I said is, those who are entitled to "shoot up" should be able to claim the title in not just the division they enter, but in the higher divisions as well. So any Junior who shoots a higher score than the Seniors should win the whole thing, as should any Masters who does the same. If not, then they win the Junior or Masters division.
> 
> It's not that hard of a concept to follow. *But why should a Junior or Masters division archer have to be satisfied with a Junior or Masters win if they beat EVERYONE in the field*? I don't get it.


In that case why have age groups at all?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> In that case why have age groups at all?


i don't think they should. 

distance shot should be based on ability, not age. My wife is new to shooting ( only shooting a few months). Her dream is to shoot an outdoor tournament ( arizona cup, Nationals etc). With her age, she must shoot 70 meters. Her ability puts her at 30 meters. 

I have kids that shoot 50 meters based on age, but shoot 70 based on their skill. 

division should be based on skill level and distance. 

but thats too hard to figure out for most tournaments. Its very easy to group age and distance. 

For indoor nationals, i like that all shoot the 40cm target at 18 meters. 


Chris


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

At our club indoor leagues, we have a cub that doesn't want to shoot 10m but wants to shoot 18m with the rest of us. So we let him. His scores would be better if he shot the age appropriate distance and target size. But he wants to shoot with the grownups.

Technically I am supposed to be shooting in the old man age groups. But I have a 9 year old daughter so I cant in all good conscience shoot in the geezer age groups. But joking aside, right now, I do not feel that age is affecting my shooting ability. Yeah, I am not as strong as I used to be when I was in the Marines, but my shooting problems are not strength/age related. So I shoot with the adult (NFAA) senior (USAA/WA). At the end of the shoot, I compare my barebow scores against all other barebow shooters and all their age groups to gage how I compared. I also compare myself to all of the Olympic style shooters, and finger compound shooters.

It is just insane with all these different age groups out there.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Age and gender divisions are just trying to match up apples with apples, and oranges with oranges. Imperfect, of course, but what else would be overall more workable?

For those arguing for 'no age divisions', where's the logical 'stop' to the argument? Age - would the 'no age distinction' only kick in above a certain age (16, 17, 18)? Or, are all 12year olds going to be required to compete with 25year olds? Not sure how that's going to be longterm beneficial for youth participation. Gender? So, does then 14 year old 80lb girl with the 20lb bow (who cannot physically withstand training with 300 arrows per day) have to zero sum compete at distance against the 14 year old 125lb boy with the 40lb bow (who is physically strong and hardy enough to be shooting 300 arrows per day with ease) ? Not sure how that's going to be longterm beneficial for the sport or female participation rate. But maybe the 'stop' occurs before gender division gets thrown under the bus? 

In any athletic event, strength is ALWAYS an asset, and its absence or diminishment is ALWAYS a detriment. I've heard Rick McKinney say he thinks there should be a Masters 40+ division. Anyone in his 40's or 50's who thinks he is on a level playing field with his former 28year old self is kidding himself. Skills may not diminish for quite some time after one's physical prime, but physical capabilities do, and what we're doing is definitely a physical endeavor. Age divisions speak not just to the score-shooting ability, but also to the energy and strength requirements of training volumes and recuperative powers. George Brett, when he retired at 40, said he could still do at 40 what he could do at 28 - he just couldn't do it every day, and couldn't do it in a day game following a night game. Capacity for training volumes and recuperative powers aren't non-factors.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I am not saying get rid of all of the age divisions, I am just saying that there are a lot of them. With the NFAA there is the PeeWee, Cub, Youth, Young Adult, Adult, Senior, Silver Senior, and Master Senior. There are only 2 age groups that span more than 10 years - Adult, and Master Senior.

I am not disagreeing with any of the points you brought up. I just think there are too many age divisions.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Welcome to my world, I have tried in the past to get the NFAA back on track and get rid of some of the Age groups but the Directors voted it down. During that process I was chastised on this very form and was told yes we needed to slim down but "NOT MY AGE GROUP".


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## pokynojoe (Feb 2, 2006)

archer_nm said:


> Welcome to my world, I have tried in the past to get the NFAA back on track and get rid of some of the Age groups but the Directors voted it down. During that process I was chastised on this very form and was told yes we needed to slim down but "NOT MY AGE GROUP".


That's unfortunate. Even though I'm a master senior, I'd be just fine with two: adult, and everyone over 60, or maybe even 55. Cut it off somewhere's around there. I'd let the youngsters have theirs the way it is, though. From my perspective, the more youngsters the better.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

archer_nm said:


> Welcome to my world, I have tried in the past to get the NFAA back on track and get rid of some of the Age groups but the Directors voted it down. During that process I was chastised on this very form and was told yes we needed to slim down but "NOT MY AGE GROUP".


Seems pretty simple. There only need to be two age groups. One for my age, and another for everybody else. :dontknow:


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Warbow said:


> Seems pretty simple. There only need to be two age groups. One for my age, and another for everybody else. :dontknow:


Three. One for me too😉

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Oh no here we go again LOL


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I like the 2 idea. Four divisions also compound, compound non sight, recurve and recurve BB. Easy peasy. Ages for adults 18-60 and over 60.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

All of the age groups and 9 different styles does nothing but diminish the competition.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

2413gary said:


> All of the age groups and 9 different styles does nothing but diminish the competition.


Yep.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

2413gary said:


> All of the age groups and 9 different styles does nothing but diminish the competition.


no one confuses-say the 50+ ladies longbow division (which my wife has won) versus say the Women's NFAA pro lady division when it comes to sponsorships, contingency winnings, magazine covers etc. its self policing. The divisions with the big bucks have the deepest talent pools.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I think we need different divisions for each bow maker...

:wink:


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Conventional limbs and unconventional?? Lol

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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer said:


> Conventional limbs and unconventional?? Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Conventional are on the chopping block so no need to have a class for them


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Seriously? you want just a couple of divisions? The events are growing astronomically compared to when there were just a few divisions and now we want to cut back? I don't think so. On average the age of elite competition is between 16-35. Yes, there are those who are rare and compete at 14 (Denise Parker) or Butch Johnson (near 60 if not there already). However, they are the exception. Most archers are there to improve themselves and have some form of competition to work on their form during the stressful events. Not real stressful, but at least you put an effort in to prove you can do it. These age groups are great due to giving you some competition and yet not so much that it is ridiculous to show up with any expectations. You can always jump in the elite group if you want to, but what about those that just want to come to the event and compare themselves to their age group buddies? I for one enjoy shooting in the age group I am qualified. Do I win? A lot of times, but then again, it gives me just enough pressure to enjoy it and still work at it. I got thrashed last year at the Outdoor Nationals by Larry and although a bit humbling, it was enjoyable that I fought for it and lost. And, I am sure that Larry was elated because he worked for it and earned it. If you take that away, then how do we get something like that ever again? There is no way an older person can stay with the youngsters. For those of you who think so, I don't see you doing it! When I go to the Masters and Senior Olympic events, the age groups are per 5 years. Almost everybody gets a medal, but still the point is that they are working their best at their capabilities and enjoying it. For those of you who don't agree, then please, by all means, shoot in the elite division at all times. Don't take away the enjoyment of the others because you don't agree with it. I personally would quit if there was only one division. It's not that I am not competitive. I am probably too competitive and have been there. I don't want to be there again. I want to enjoy it. And the Master's division gives not only me, but many others an opportunity to improve ourselves without the burden of going against a youngster that has an incredible advantage.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't think anyone was really serious about just a couple of divisions.


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## Laurie Borealis (Mar 10, 2012)

Nice post, Rick. Seems like the frustration with the many age classes is coming from mostly the trad/BB sector, where there are few enough of us that we do get really diluted and where 60-somethings can and do often get the overall top scores. I like the way USA Archery does it -- they dispense with the various masters categories if there is very little competition in those categories. The NFAA is locked into age divisions in every bow style. But yeah, the serious shooters can and do just shoot the adult category.

And Ren, yeah, for sure, there are some eye-rolling, maddening things about USA Archery -- but they let me shoot a barebow recurve and they let me stringwalk it, and I forgive them everything else! Plus, by God, a peon like me calls or emails Sheri or Denise or someone else, and they get back to me! They may not agree with me, but they take the time to respond thoughtfully and in detail. I have sent emails with questions or comments to NFAA top dogs, and mid-dogs, etc., and gotten NOTHING in response. Radio silence. More than once. Plus I like that USA Archery takes the lead on thinking about effective coaching techniques.

And Ren, us barebow shooters need you and your talent and experience at those USA Archery shoots. Grumble, yeah, but come back to us! See you in Yankton in June for U.S. Field Nationals?? The funnest tournament of them all?


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

This isn't a Trad/Barebow issue.

I can totally understand if USAA doesn't want to have a dozen age groups for Trad at the indoor nationals since there isn't that many people competing in all of the groups. If they want to just have a Senior division since that is where most of the activity is. Fine, let them make that decision. I can respect that. The issue is that they are not letting other people that don't fit in that age group from competing in that age group. If a Cadet wants to shoot it? fine let them. If a master senior wants to shoot it, fine let them. They all know what they are getting themselves into.

If a person wants to shoot two different styles. One style has their appropriate age group, and the other style only has only 1 age group. Why can't they shoot both age groups. This is not about trying the cheat the system and shoot an age group where one has a competitive advantage because of age.

Common sense isn't being applied here.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

rsarns said:


> Conventional are on the chopping block so no need to have a class for them


Well then maybe, a vintage limb class and the current best there is?

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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mr. Roboto said:


> ... The issue is that they are not letting other people that don't fit in that age group from competing in that age group. If a Cadet wants to shoot it? fine let them. If a master senior wants to shoot it, fine let them. They all know what they are getting themselves into.


Are you sure that's prohibited? I thought the majority of the discussions on that subject were not about that, but scores/records being applied to classes other than the specific class the archer was registered in at the time the round was shot.




Mr. Roboto said:


> If a person wants to shoot two different styles. One style has their appropriate age group, and the other style only has only 1 age group. Why can't they shoot both age groups. This is not about trying the cheat the system and shoot an age group where one has a competitive advantage because of age.
> 
> Common sense isn't being applied here.


Depending on the tournament format, there can be legitimate logistical reasons why one individual is only permitted to shoot one class. The proper application of common sense requires that the interests of everyone involved in the competition are considered, not just the interests of any particular group.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Demmer said:


> Conventional limbs and unconventional?? Lol


I think it is time to make the _USA Archery Sponsor Division_ official. Shooting in it will be required for JDT, RA and WXT eligibility as well as for L3 and above: 


Nike hat, clothes and shoes
PILLA shooting glasses
AXCEL Sight
AAE clicker
Hoyt or AAE rest
B-Stinger stabs
Hoyt riser and limbs
Easton arrows


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Actually, they used to allow archers to shoot two different divisions years ago. However, Denise Parker shot her youth division (Intermediate, I think) and the women's division. She set world records in both. FITA ( now WA) said no! You cannot do that. FITA rules state that you can only shoot one division and clarified it to make sure it does not happen, again. Yes, USAA has allowed it at times, but I think a person should go there to win their 1 division. To shoot both is not acceptable via WA. If it works for one division, it should work for the others. Also, for those who care, I don't agree with allowing a youngster shooting a higher score than the Senior archer and be allowed to take the senior's award. Nor a Master to be in their own division and shoot a higher score than the Senior division and be allowed to take that title. There is a lesser degree of expectations when you are in a "safe" division. This mentally allows you to relax a bit better and shoot a higher score than the Seniors due to less stress. No hiding in a different division. It's almost like an ambush. Anyway, I fully understand that BB and trad want to do both. But if they do it, then others will want to do it. Just choose to shoot one or the other and enjoy. There are over 2600 archers shooting this indoor event and it's great to see and watch all of the scores being posted during the weekends. Yes, there is a lot to be said about a single location, but it does not allow many to travel due to cost. This allows those to shoot all over the US and compare their scores with the best. The efforts by USAA to make the events more consistent with each other is amazing. They are even discussing the amount of lumens for each range in the plus/minus area. We continue to grow in so many ways. It is an exciting period.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Also, for those who care, I don't agree with allowing a youngster shooting a higher score than the Senior archer and be allowed to take the senior's award. Nor a Master to be in their own division and shoot a higher score than the Senior division and be allowed to take that title.


So what about the records then? Or USAT events where Juniors are lumped in with Seniors? It's being done all the time already.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

nestly said:


> Are you sure that's prohibited? I thought the majority of the discussions on that subject were not about that, but scores/records being applied to classes other than the specific class the archer was registered in at the time the round was shot.
> 
> Read the original post that has went way off track.
> 
> ...


Read the original post


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Mr. Roboto said:


> The issue is that they are not letting other people that don't fit in that age group from competing in that age group. .





rsarns said:


> Read the original post


from the original post:


rsarns said:


> and I received an email stating I would have to drop out of the Masters BB to senior to be able to shoot Trad recurve as that's only a senior event. WHat is the big deal of shooting Masters with one type bow and senior with another? It's not like I am shooting 2 age classes with the same equipment/division?


My last was response was directed at Mr Roboto, who suggested they were/are not allowing people to compete in a class other than the one most specific to their age group. Whether right or wrong, that's not really how your original post reads. Your original message doesn't indicate to me that you don't have a choice between shooting Masters (BB) and Seniors (Trad), only that you can't shoot both. I already stated that I believe tournaments should try to accommodate archers that wish to compete in more than one division, but I also understand why it might not be permitted. 

*IBO* does not permit an archer to shoot in more than one class per event, and I can think of at least three very good reasons for that.
*ASA* does not permit an archer to shoot in more than one class per event, and I can think of at least two very good reasons for that.
*NFAA/Vegas* does not permit an archer to shoot in more than one class, and I can think of 1 very good reason for that
*WA/Fita* does not permit an archer to shoot in more than one class per event (I don't know a "good" reason for that rule, but I do know there would be a logistical conflict related to the current scoring/results system)
*PSAA* (Pennsylvania State Archery Association), which AFAIK is not beholden to NFAA or USAA, or WA does not permit an archer to shoot more than one class per event.
Again, I feel for those who want to shoot multiple classes, but I also understand why it's generally not permitted.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Vegas does not because of scheduling issues. NFAA does not forbid but once again scheduling. WSAA an NFAA affiliate allows it and we shoot most of our shoots under NFAA rules. USA Archery will let you provided the same age group. In this case there is no masters for Trad but there is for BB.


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