# Need some info on 20 yard indoor trad barebow set up



## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

The most common Indoor trad will probably be NFAA Indoor, Trad class. No stringwalking, Stabilizer up to 12" allowed.

Is that your gear in the example? If so, at #35 @ 28" limbs, with a 31" draw, you're pulling nearly #41 OTF; you're going to need a pretty darn heavy arrow to get it to point on at 20 yards.

As for ideal poundage, that's a very individual thing; some people can handle 200 arrows a day at #45, others can only handle 100 at #25. Your body will tell you after you do a few practice scoring rounds on your own. In order to do your best, being able to shoot at _least_ 70 arrows without any form breakdown is ideal.

Keep in mind that indoor is a game of repeatable consistency; extreme speed is not a factor, despite what many seem to think. (the paper isn't going to move on you, and the distance to target is fixed and known...) I'll be running about #31 OTF this coming season and based on my most recent scoring attempts, should be able to happily meet my pretty aggressive shooting goals. FWIW, my point is 6'o clock of the ten ring, using 1916 Platinum Plus arrows, 3 under directly against the nock.

Cheers,
E.


----------



## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

One of the reasons I went to Stringwalking, no need to change from my normal 40# Field/3D setup for Indoor rounds (run out of crawls 60y) but when I did Gap I used full length 2314's and 250g points and 4 x 4" feathers which gave me 20y point on from 35# rig. 

My Indoor scores are better SW, low/mid 280's with a PB of 292 in practice, couldn't shoot past 275 Gapping even in practice.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I tried several approaches. I stringwalked with the same bow and arrows that I use outdoors. I also went the light bow, long heavy arrow approach which many folks try to get their point on the center. In fact, I shot my personal best that way right before I started rebuilding my form back in 2011. The problem came when I picked up about 1 1/2 inches of extra draw length from my improved form. My point dropped to about 8 inches below the paper, with 27 pound limbs and 538 gr full length 2315 Easton X7. The arrows were 35 5/8 inches long from nock groove to point. I was never able to get it back on the paper again. With my regular bow I am about 3 feet below the center. Also consider that I am a victim of my 32 inch draw length when it comes to short shots.

I stopped competing indoors a long time ago. I don't even practice indoors any longer, even though I have a great indoor range a mile from my house. I shot the local league a few times in the past couple of years. I used my outdoor bow and stringwalked. What drove me to stop shooting indoors is the good weather, available outdoor target shoots year around, and not having to cobble together an indoor bow and then change to an outdoor bow after indoor season ends. We have excellent indoor tournaments out here, Our State Championship for World Archery is a two day FITA and draws over 400. And then there is Vegas. I would just rather shoot the field course.


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

when building this frankenmonster of an arrow to achieve 20 yard point on do you completely disregard the tune? or is there a spine formula that takes the super heavy point into account? I am interested in trying this I have several limbs and can shoot anywhere between 30-40 pounds on the fingers, my draw length is 30 1/8 inches (WA barebow) where do I start? Just buy 2315s put 250 point in and see what happens?


----------



## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

yegon said:


> when building this frankenmonster of an arrow to achieve 20 yard point on do you completely disregard the tune? or is there a spine formula that takes the super heavy point into account? I am interested in trying this I have several limbs and can shoot anywhere between 30-40 pounds on the fingers, my draw length is 30 1/8 inches (WA barebow) where do I start? Just buy 2315s put 250 point in and see what happens?


Been a while since I used this setup but I didn't bother to BS tune, just set with heavy duty ZT wire rest, soft spring plunger and just adjusted center shot and plunger setting till I got the grouping and aim I wanted (i.e. figure 8 on the spot). This disadvantage of this setup is it's a *very* slow arrow, a soft release will likely put you low in the 2/3 zone, be warned.

Watch the Lancaster Classic shoot off, some were using heavy arrow setup.


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

Yes i have seen that I was just wondering what spine to start with, for example if I am not mistaken John Demmer was shooting the Carbon Express Maxima Pro Recurve RZ, If I wanted to try them out should I buy one step stiffer than the chart recommends for my draw weight/length if I want to use a very heavy tip or even 2 steps stiffer?


----------



## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

There's too many factors at play to really give you guidance; you have to kind of play around. Especially if you are shooting in NFAA Indoor where stringwalking is not allowed.

Few tips I generally give:

- don't go crazy on poundage; you almost always have to slow the arrow down to get point on at 20, so more poundage just means more work to slow it back down. (it's physics, you cannot beat it)
- don't go too light on poundage either; you want to get a clean release and slower speeds can amplify release and form/anchor mistakes.
- keep the shaft full length; this helps with reducing gap (it complicates dynamic spine though, so be mindful of it)
- use as high an anchor as you can comfortably/repeatably shoot well; this helps get the nock closer to the eye, and again, reduces gaps
- accept that a perfect tune _while _having a 20 yard point on is probably damn near impossible. It's the holy grail that indoor shooters pursue, but a very hard mix to accomplish. (ie, don't fret if the tune is slightly/moderately off, as long as you are point on and able to put the arrow into the white regularly) A choice generally must be made to have perfect tune and small gap, or point on with a slightly off tune.

From there, you 'just' have to refine your form and release; it's got to be super consistent and repeatable. 

Cheers,
E.


----------



## ibboone (Nov 10, 2015)

Elmo
That bow described is my target bow. You are right with the poundage. I am pulling close to 42 pounds.
I have some 3115(340) and 3117(300) and a field tip test kit up to 300. I need to get me a plunger for my target bow. I have found from experimenting that a plunger helps a lot with tuning arrows.

I would like to thank everyone for the input of information and I will keep you posted on my archery goal.

Dan


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I'm about to try some new arrows for my indoor bow. I'm running 32lbs on the fingers, 600 spine carbons, with 175 gr tips. The arrow is too stiff, but I average in the high 270s to low 280s with it. Right now, my hold is 6oclock on the blue to hit the white. My centershot is nearly set like i'm shooting a release since the arrow is too stiff. Anyway i'm going to try the maxima rz arrows right away. Think i'll get help from Lancaster, and try their recommended spine for my situation. Lunger


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

how long are your arrows lunger? I shoot the same specs 32lbs with 600 easton carbon one arrows full length (which is like 32 inches) with 100gr tips and they shoot way too weak for me


----------



## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

ibboone said:


> Elmo
> That bow described is my target bow. You are right with the poundage. I am pulling close to 42 pounds.
> I have some 3115(340) and 3117(300) and a field tip test kit up to 300. I need to get me a plunger for my target bow. I have found from experimenting that a plunger helps a lot with tuning arrows.
> 
> ...


Dan,

Be mindful of regulations: NFAA Rulebook, Art. II, Section A, #6



> Maximum arrow shaft diameter allowed in NFAA competition will be 0.422 inches, with point diameter not to exceed 0.425 inches. The shaft diameter will include any wrap placed on the arrow and will include the size of the nock and the nock insert.


As such, your 31/64" (0.484" O.D.) shafts would not be within the allowable diameter. 27/64" shafts are what is typically used, if you want to max out for line cutting. There are benefits to using bigger shafts (line cutting) but there are drawbacks as well. (can be trickier to tune, and also present a larger aiming reference... think fat sight pin, instead of skinny sight pin)

You really only need three or four shafts to play with at first; I usually tell people to just buy 3 or 4, since at $5 a pop for Platinum Plus shafts it's a cheap and easy way to experiment. Once you know which shaft size/point weight/poundage OTF combo gets you close, then you dive in and start fine tuning (purchase X7, X23, or X27 shafts, point weight, tiller bolts for fractional poundage increase, tweak centershot, tweak plunger, tiller etc.)

Cheers,
E.


----------



## ibboone (Nov 10, 2015)

Sorry about that. The shafts I have are 2315(340) & 2317(300). I will make sure I check out the rules before I finish setting up my bow. I still have a few months before the winter league starts. 

Dan


----------



## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

ibboone said:


> Sorry about that. The shafts I have are 2315(340) & 2317(300). I will make sure I check out the rules before I finish setting up my bow. I still have a few months before the winter league starts.
> 
> Dan


No worries, you're good to go then. Just didn't want you spending a ton of time setting up and tuning/practicing, only to show up at the first shoot and find out your gear wasn't legal for that division.

FWIW, many indoor archers have also been trying out Carbon Express Xbusters; they are intentionally heavier carbon arrows, and in the 500 spine range and stiffer, come in right under the 23/64" threshold. Just another (pricier) option you may want to explore...

I shot them for indoor last year, and did quite well with them. But I found the fatter shafts less to my preference when aiming, hence my switch downwards to 1916 this year. Plus, these 1916 in Plat Plus are cheaper, so I care less when I smack tight groups that scratch/damage a shaft... The size naturally sacrifices some line cutting ability, but my most recent scoring rounds has me satisfied in the overall improvement. 

Cheers,
E.


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

what points do you use for testing this, I have found ProPoints but they are sold by the dozen, is there an alternative for these heavy points that could be bought as singles in different weights?


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

never mind, found the screw in point test kit ibboone was referencing in his post


----------



## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

yegon said:


> what points do you use for testing this, I have found ProPoints but they are sold by the dozen, is there an alternative for these heavy points that could be bought as singles in different weights?


3 Rivers Archery sells points in a 5/16" test kit format; two of each size; (assuming my memory is correct) 100gr, 125gr, 145gr, 175gr, 200gr, and 250gr. All for only $7; pick up two packs and you'll be good to go. Sucky part is shipping; I don't like what they charge. (so it's only really worth it if you're buying some other stuff as well)

But those points have served me through many, many tuning and tinkering sessions. 

E.


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

Yegon, 29 inches with nocking point 5/8inch high. My draw length is 27.5 inches, so I probably have a hair less than 32 on the fingers. 175gr tips with 4 inch feathers, 3 per arrow. Lunger


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

Forgot to mention i've been shooting a split finger tab with spacer. This raises the back of the arrow even higher than regular 3 under tab. I started out this way because it was the only thing I could get locally, and it worked. Along with new arrows, i'll be switching to a yost 3 under tab to try.


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I have a everlast 3 under tab, and shoot well with it, but my gap with the same bow is unmanageable. Lol!!! Lunger


----------



## ibboone (Nov 10, 2015)

Thanks for that tidbit of info. I'm going to have to do some experimenting with a split tab. 

Dan


----------



## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

ibboone said:


> I'm thinking of doing some winter indoor shooting at a archery range about 30 minutes from where I live.
> My question is
> Is there anybody that shoots traditional bow at 20 yards only? (indoor league competition)
> I would like to set a bow up so I have a point on at 20 yards.
> ...


I see you wrote traditional bow but what class are you shooting in? Is it going to be an nfaa traditional setup is it going to be a USA barebow set up? If it's going to be an nfaa set up, point on is going to be very important as to relationship of your anchor. There are some anchors that just won't get your point on no matter how much you slow down that Arrow. Case in point, last year at nfaa indoor Nationals I shot traditional class I had to shoot a 700 grain Arrow with the top speed of 134 ft per second to get point on with my somewhat lower anchor. Elsa needed a heavyweight on the end of my staff to push that bow down faster to reduce my Gap to point on. 
If you're going to be shooting USA barebow, who cares if it's point on. Crawl away. I don't focus on nfaa traditional so my anchor is set up for the possibility of field indoors and Target that's not an ideal anchor for point on at 20. 
Lunger, you just gotta pay attention sometimes overly weak arrows show stiff. 
My suggestion is always go extreme spend 30 bucks on points and get yourself 300,250,200,175,145, 125, 100 and 225gr points of they got them. That way you can plug in play make sure you're at the right spine and you're not getting a false read. Sometimes I'll go from 300 on down showing this as a bareshafting read...... Stiff, stiff, stiff, weak, weak, weak, perfect. What that meant was that my 300 250 + 200 we're so far out of spine that they were giving a false stiff impression. More than likely they were clanking off the rest/plunger kicking and showing the bad read. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

I'll do that! With that indoor bow, I came up from the other direction. Started at 100, 125, 150, then 175, which is my heaviest. It shot noticeably better with the 175s, so I ran it that way. I'm going to order those arrows, beiter plunger, spig rest today along with the point kit. Oh, and yost tab with stitches for walking. Thanks John!


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

Demmer3 said:


> If you're going to be shooting USA barebow, who cares if it's point on. Crawl away.


So theres no upside for the stringwalkers to get their crawls shorter? Like better aiming or something like that? I shoot WA barebow and my 18m crawl is 1 & 3/4 inches down the string should I just stick with it or is there some merit to getting a heavier arrow and reduce the crawl?


----------



## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

yegon said:


> So theres no upside for the stringwalkers to get their crawls shorter? Like better aiming or something like that? I shoot WA barebow and my 18m crawl is 1 & 3/4 inches down the string should I just stick with it or is there some merit to getting a heavier arrow and reduce the crawl?


1 3/4 is pretty big. Where is your anchor? Downside of a slow heavy arrow is that drawl length errors, collapsing, or flinches pay for it really big time 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

I shoot an anchor with index finger base knuckle touching the bone under my eye and the string touching the tip of my nose - the height is about equivalent with index finger in the mouth

I am using a light arrow - easton carbon one, maybe I could not go overboard to a very heavy setup but something medium heavy? I dont have a problem with shooting indoor with this arrow and crawl i was just wondering if I am not doing something wrong when I saw all of you shooting heavy and touching the arrow.


----------



## ibboone (Nov 10, 2015)

Hey Demmer, I don't know what class I will be shooting in. I ran into a gentleman that I know at the archery range and he told me that he did a winter archery shoot at a local archery range in Hampton. He gave me some basic info, no specifics. I'm going to have to stop by the archery range sometime and get some specific info on this and equipment allowed.
I already have a dozen tips of each varying from 250 to 85. Plus I have the gold tip fact weight system with a dozen 50,20, and 10 grain fact weights. With my draw being so long I don't have the option of cutting down arrows for tuning. I have to micro tune tip weight. 

Thanks for all the info.

Dan


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

lunger 66 said:


> I'm about to try some new arrows for my indoor bow. I'm running 32lbs on the fingers, 600 spine carbons, with 175 gr tips. The arrow is too stiff, but I average in the high 270s to low 280s with it. Right now, my hold is 6oclock on the blue to hit the white. My centershot is nearly set like i'm shooting a release since the arrow is too stiff. Anyway i'm going to try the maxima rz arrows right away. Think i'll get help from Lancaster, and try their recommended spine for my situation. Lunger


Sounds like heavier points (or inserts) will fix both the aim and tune problem.

P.S. don't get the Spig ZT, it's a pain. AAE Free Flyte is a much easier rest to deal with.


----------



## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

grantmac said:


> ...P.S. don't get the Spig ZT, it's a pain.


Curious what issues you've had with it? Mine seem to be working ok so far...


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

That's right Grant. Just now ordered maxima rz arrows and an assortment of tip weights from 250 and down. The spig rest is on backorder for me, but will be using a cartel until it comes. Also new beiter plunger, and yost string walking tab are on the order. Feels like Christmas is this coming Wednesday! Lunger


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Elmosaurus said:


> Curious what issues you've had with it? Mine seem to be working ok so far...


Until it doesn't. Specifically you can't torque the set screw holding the wire enough because it's going into aluminum, so the wire can slowly move outward.
Also the wire is overly stiff which can cause bouncing if you have a very long crawl.

The AAE doesn't have those issues. Plus it is easier to adjust and parts are available domestically although I haven't replaced anything in 7 years with the same one.


----------



## yegon (Aug 15, 2017)

lunger 66 said:


> That's right Grant. Just now ordered maxima rz arrows and an assortment of tip weights from 250 and down. The spig rest is on backorder for me, but will be using a cartel until it comes. Also new beiter plunger, and yost string walking tab are on the order. Feels like Christmas is this coming Wednesday! Lunger


do you want to try the heavier points with those arrows? did you buy stiffer or exactly as the chart suggests for your bow weight?


----------



## lunger 66 (Feb 16, 2017)

No yegon, 580 spine was recommended for me with a lighter point. I decided to drop back to 500s, and be able to shoot heavier points to get point on as close as possible. Lunger


----------



## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Great question, ibboone! I've been interested in learning more about setting up a 20 Y PO. Thanks everyone for dropping some knowledge on me! I am learning a lot1


----------



## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

I'm shooting 615gr x23 Easton arrows with 175gr point. I think they are 32in long. I'm about 36lbs OTF. This gives me under the red on the Vegas face 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

granite14 said:


> I'm shooting 615gr x23 Easton arrows with 175gr point. I think they are 32in long. I'm about 36lbs OTF. This gives me under the red on the Vegas face
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


2314?


Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## ibboone (Nov 10, 2015)

I made it to the archery range today to do some testing of arrows. Arrow tested was a Easton 2317 (300 spine) xx75 Game getter 32 3/4" with a 250 grain tip. For the first shot at 5 yards bare shaft showed a little weak. Moved to 10 yards and it looked weaker. I switched to 225 grain tip and it was on the money. I shot 2 fletched and 2 bare shafts out to 20 yards. They were grouping together. I was shocked that it went so easy. Hope to do some more shooting later this week.

Didn't shoot the 2315 (340 spine). I liked the way the 300's were shooting I decided to stay with them

My bow of choice for this is: 
Hoy Satori 21" riser
Black Maxx 2.0 35#@28" limbs
AAE elite arrow rest
AAE master plunger

Dan


----------



## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Demmer3 said:


> 2314?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I didn't know they made 2314 x23s. mine are 2315s, I guess they are 31.5" long. nock at 3/4" now.
I cut them on 2016 season, when I was using 25" riser and heavier limbs.


----------

