# Vegas Face Improvement



## Refteck

I'm in on this for the suggestions! 

I'm in the same boat, sometimes I think it's a little tweak on the equipment but I know it is more mental than anything!


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## AF1273

I've been after the indoor game for almost a year and still haven't got over the hump of the 300 game. One thing I've been putting focus on in the past few weeks is trying to feel what a perfect shot feels like and what the difference is on the misses. The main thing I've found is that usually my timing is off when the shot breaks and usually it is too slow on the misses. Another thing is I can almost always feel the miss coming on. Keep after it. It'll come one day


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## TheScOuT

I shot 2 rounds today....294 and 295. I am in the same boat....in this thread for advice!


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## coastiehunter2

Your subconscious mind will only let you shoot what you think you should shoot. You need to believe you can do it then you will, I know easier said than done.


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## Blue X

the answer you seek is found in your shot sequence. Write it down shoot with it beside you and learn it and perfect it. 
the last thing written on your active shot sequence should be aim. Thats right aim and not shoot. The decision to shoot comes before the decision to aim. shoot first aim second.

Blue X


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## flybynight

How many times do you let down during a game? Only shoot the good shots. If your float is not right let down, if the shot goes past your comfort time for the shot to break let down.


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## cbrunson

Many here will suggest and I will agree that you start shooting 10 or 15 yard games where you can shoot 300s consistently. Then move back when your confidence is high.


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## baller

The two approaches I have seen done and have done myself are 

1) start out at a distance where you KNOW you can shoot a clean target (could be 5 yards) and shoot an inside out game....then back up 5 yards and shoot from there until you get another inside out game and so on.

2) when shooting a normal 300 game from 20y, vegas or 5spot, focus on a very much smaller aiming point than just the 10 ring....focus at the very center of the x ring with the intention of an inside out X every shot....smaller aiming focus creates smaller misses. Be specific about your aim.

3) Know you can and will do it. Anyone who can shoot past 50x 5 spot or 295 vegas has the talent to shoot 300s and clean 5spots. The rest is purely mental. KNOW you can do it (which is where #1 comes in to play, knowing by doing) and eventually the flyer shots will become a thing of the past. 

Good luck, good shooting.


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## chasemukluk

That skills for all the feedback. 

I typically let down 2 or so times per game. However, the timing comment may help. There are times when I am at full draw and the shot doesn't break and I wait, and wait. Not sure how those shots turn out, but I will start to track that. 

I shoot short games in the winter in my basement and can shoot clean inside out 5 spot games at 10 yards. 

I will try them at 15 and see how I do. 

My form could probably be better too. 

Thanks!


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## monsterbuckrick

coastiehunter2 said:


> Your subconscious mind will only let you shoot what you think you should shoot. You need to believe you can do it then you will, I know easier said than done.


 ^^^^This^^^^^


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## stoz

Definitely pre season this works well for me to start close and go back slow. I usually start 7 yards then go back 2yards a week until 15 yards. Then I go a yard a week. Averaged 58 x this year with only one clean. In practice can regularly shoot clean. All mental for me.. to get to clean.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, you haven't put forth your rig set up...If by "Elite GT500 70lbs 28.5"" I'd say you're drawing too much. I know it's possible to have a bow cover several venues, but indoor paper just doesn't need a whole lot of "killing."


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## stoz

Definitely. I shoot 53# indoor 65 out. Low let off vs high let off.


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## chasemukluk

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, you haven't put forth your rig set up...If by "Elite GT500 70lbs 28.5"" I'd say you're drawing too much. I know it's possible to have a bow cover several venues, but indoor paper just doesn't need a whole lot of "killing."


I turn my GT 500 down to about 63lbs during winter spot season, but shoot it at 70 lbs all 3d and hunting season. Shoot a big heavy 2712 during spot season and a light fast arrow for 3d. My hunting arrow is about 400 grains. It doesn't seem to impact my scores between the two weights.


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## acesbettor

chasemukluk said:


> That skills for all the feedback.
> 
> *I typically let down 2 or so times per game.* However, the timing comment may help. There are times when I am at full draw and the shot doesn't break and I wait, and wait. Not sure how those shots turn out, but I will start to track that.
> 
> I shoot short games in the winter in my basement and can shoot clean inside out 5 spot games at 10 yards.
> 
> I will try them at 15 and see how I do.
> 
> My form could probably be better too.
> 
> Thanks!


You probably aren't letting down enough. I know that's my issue! My best scores are when i am dedicated to letting down as soon as something doesn't feel correct! When i miss a shot, i know that i should't take it but i try to force it!


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## miko0618

Gotta relax and stay focused. Keep a calm, clutter free mind from draw til execution. Chill out and make the best shots you can.

And to answer the equipment tweak part, no. Its very very unlikely that your set up will not shoot a clean round. I shot a vegas 600 in league at 28 3/8". Went back 2 weeks later and shot a vegas 600 in league at 29 3/8". I've done it with long arrows, short arrows, fat arrows, skinny arrows all without touching my rest height. I've done it with every lens configuration, release, peep configuration ect... 99.99% its you.


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## SonnyThomas

chasemukluk said:


> My form could probably be better too.


Form... Form is what feels good to you... Every time form comes up the classic form is noted. The classic form is a guide, a starting point. Stance, bow arm, release arm, grip and all given classic. If it doesn't feel right or you have to force it, then it's not right for you.... You practice the classic form and when you get to the line, pressure building, you return to what feels good - say natural to you. Separating the two can be hard to sort out. Me, my release arm, I forced it to the classic and when I forced it I shot good, but forcing is tiring and I'd drift back to what felt better and shot placement changed. Beat this thing to death, frustration to no end. Finally went with what felt good and never looked back.


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## mikesmith66

Most guys don't jump from a "297 shooter" level to a "300 shooter" level. Once you get to the point where you can bang out 297s on a regular basis, the next step is 298. Then 299. Then after that you have to learn the mental game to keep your head on your shoulders to sink that last 10. It's a mental process that normally involves baby steps. 

Short game shooting helps alot. It builds confidence and trust in your shot. 

Just out of curiosity, what is your X count average ?

For me, my goal is to shoot 30 good shots, NOT to shoot a 300. Worrying about the score only causes problems. If I shoot a 299-26x and feel I made 30 good shots, but just happened to shoot a 9...I'm happier than I am if I shoot a 300-16x that looks like I shotgunned the target because I didn't shoot the way I know how. 

Your first 300 will come on a day when you're NOT trying to shoot one. Then the hard part begins.........doing it again :wink:


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## TCR1

I can't imagine a 300 vegas face that would look like a shotgun let loose on it, but my expectations of shotguns might be different . 

Also, letting down is a very critical skill to have, but counting the number of times you let down in a round and using that as a basis for improving your score is ridiculous. Obviously, if you are shooting a 297 average (nice shooting!), you know when something isn't going right in the shot and that you SHOULD let down. If you are forcing shots off somehow, then yes, you need to readjust your mind set and realize that not shooting is better than shooting in some instances. Letting down too often could/can lead to being too passive in the shot sequence. As an example, this morning, I let down twice on the 3rd spot on the same end. I just couldn't figure out why the shot wasn't breaking. Did a quick self assessment and realized I wasn't being kinetic/aggressive in my shot. Drawing the bow the next time, I tweaked my mind set, was far more deliberate, and the shot went like all the previous ones. Keep after the fun, let the shots happen by being deliberate in your shot,and let the tally end where it may. You obviously have the skills since 27 out of 30 arrows went right where you wanted them...you can make those last 3 do the same.:wink:


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## mikesmith66

Ha ha yea that was a poor choice of words. Certainly wasen't knocking any shooters that have shot 300s with with 15x or anything like that. I was just trying to point out how I look at X count to determine how well I'm shooting. 



TCR1 said:


> I can't imagine a 300 vegas face that would look like a shotgun let loose on it, but my expectations of shotguns might be different .


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## TCR1

mikesmith66 said:


> Ha ha yea that was a poor choice of words. Certainly wasen't knocking any shooters that have shot 300s with with 15x or anything like that. I was just trying to point out how I look at X count to determine how well I'm shooting.


I was following you, but have an odd ball sense of humor. That was me being funny :embara:

OP has an average equal to my best round, but I think we can all learn from one another. Guys shooting 297+ consistently are impressive to me. I really love the idea of aiming for that X and shooting for the X every time (I pounded the middle out of the x's this morning at 10 yds in fact ) And your high X count with a flyer idea is rewarded in Fita as the X is 10, and the rest of the yellow is 9 (if I recall correctly). Therefore, the 26x 299 would be a 296 Fita round and the 16x 300 would be a 286 (not too shabby still)! 

One thing to consider though is how those first few shots go can make a huge difference in the X count for a round. Here is my thinking, those first few arrows can dictate the X count of game, but may not really express how the archer did that day (barring his inability to make the decision to adjust the sight if legal in his class or re-hanging a new target). For instance, say the first 3 arrows in each spot are line licker X's (jarlicker?) to the right. As that hole gets pounded out (archer doing his job and doing everything consistently), chances are that some of those line licker x's turn into solid 10's or possibly line licker 10s. The overall span of the punched out hole might be capable of resulting in a high x count game, but for whatever reason, those first arrows impacted right and the X count was low, but the score could be high. If we all really focus on the shot only, and not the result, then I would say that it was a successful day at the range. However, it really comes back to what wins if we shoot competitively. In a vegas round, the 300 16x wins over a 299 26x, but in FITA it is flip flopped. Thankfully, in both instances, the archer did a damn fine job of commanding his bow/arrow and can sleep well knowing he did what an archer strives to do...predictably place an arrow where he intends it.


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## mikesmith66

TCR1 said:


> I was following you, but have an odd ball sense of humor. That was me being funny :embara:
> 
> OP has an average equal to my best round, but I think we can all learn from one another. Guys shooting 297+ consistently are impressive to me. I really love the idea of aiming for that X and shooting for the X every time (I pounded the middle out of the x's this morning at 10 yds in fact ) And your high X count with a flyer idea is rewarded in Fita as the X is 10, and the rest of the yellow is 9 (if I recall correctly). Therefore, the 26x 299 would be a 296 Fita round and the 16x 300 would be a 286 (not too shabby still)!
> 
> One thing to consider though is how those first few shots go can make a huge difference in the X count for a round. Here is my thinking, those first few arrows can dictate the X count of game, but may not really express how the archer did that day (barring his inability to make the decision to adjust the sight if legal in his class or re-hanging a new target). For instance, say the first 3 arrows in each spot are line licker X's (jarlicker?) to the right. As that hole gets pounded out (archer doing his job and doing everything consistently), chances are that some of those line licker x's turn into solid 10's or possibly line licker 10s. The overall span of the punched out hole might be capable of resulting in a high x count game, but for whatever reason, those first arrows impacted right and the X count was low, but the score could be high. If we all really focus on the shot only, and not the result, then I would say that it was a successful day at the range. However, it really comes back to what wins if we shoot competitively. In a vegas round, the 300 16x wins over a 299 26x, but in FITA it is flip flopped. Thankfully, in both instances, the archer did a damn fine job of commanding his bow/arrow and can sleep well knowing he did what an archer strives to do...predictably place an arrow where he intends it.


Pretty good assessment of some days I've had recently ha ha. Once you r dig those holes in a "bad" area, it starts to get tough to shoot around them. In fact, most times, it's not even worth trying to shoot around them. 

This brings up another tid bit of advice for someone to experiment with: the size of your aiming dot/pin. For years I shot a center drill, .019 fiber for indoor. Shot some very good scores with it over the years. Even a couple 300-27x.But 2 years ago I started having some issues watching my pin. I was so focused on holding steady, I lost focus on actually shooting the shot. This year I decided to try a black sticky dot after talking with N7709K thru a few pm's this past winter. I stuck one on that is just slightly bigger than the 10ring with my 4x lense. AFter shooting it for about a week, I was experiencing a new level of comfort shooting at 3 spots. Not only did the dot show less movement while aiming, but it also covered up those holes that are hanging on the 10 ring line. I could anchor, relax my brain, and just run the release like I'm supposed to. 

So dont be afraid to mess with pins/dots. A little change like that might just be enough to help a guy pick up another point, or 2. And picking up points is good for the confidence.........which leads to more points.


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## kballer1

You need to shoot all 30 arrows the same not just 27 of them, it is YOU that is talking your self out of the 300. Like one of the above AT'ers said shot sequence you need to 

do as said write it down & follow it on every shot till you get the first 300. Like they say if you practice shooting bad shots you will do the same in a tournament.


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## chasemukluk

mikesmith66 said:


> Most guys don't jump from a "297 shooter" level to a "300 shooter" level. Once you get to the point where you can bang out 297s on a regular basis, the next step is 298. Then 299. Then after that you have to learn the mental game to keep your head on your shoulders to sink that last 10. It's a mental process that normally involves baby steps.
> 
> Short game shooting helps alot. It builds confidence and trust in your shot.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what is your X count average ?
> 
> For me, my goal is to shoot 30 good shots, NOT to shoot a 300. Worrying about the score only causes problems. If I shoot a 299-26x and feel I made 30 good shots, but just happened to shoot a 9...I'm happier than I am if I shoot a 300-16x that looks like I shotgunned the target because I didn't shoot the way I know how.
> 
> Your first 300 will come on a day when you're NOT trying to shoot one. Then the hard part begins.........doing it again :wink:


My x count is around 16-17. My best has been 19. So, much room for improvement!


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## N7709K

to get those last 3 points you need to step back and look into what the cause(s) are for the dropped points; are their similarities when misses occur, do you have little form inconsistencies, etc? There isn't a trick to pick up those three points; they come one at a time and with changes between each plateau, and lots of shots... like tens of thousands to bring the average up.

Best place to start is on a very close bale shooting blank bale learning your shot; work on form, shot timing, consistency, getting each shot to feel exactly the same. after things are working and shots are flowing hang a target and shoot close games at 5yds or so; work on shooting good shot and shoot for single hole targets NOT scores(don't shoot at 5yds for XXXX number of arrows, until you hit a perfect score, etc). After you are shooting consistent clean games with good shots start moving back at a couple yds at a time moving back ONLY when shots are rolling good and shots are CONSISTENT. all told it'll take probably 6months or so to go from blank bale to worked back to 18m; once there you'll hit with 300 a few times and you'll find the changes you need to make to the bow.

you'll shoot 300's and flirt with them for a while. you'll find the form changes you need to make and your scores will drop a little at first and then come back to a higher x average. after you hit bout a 325 average it becomes all mental


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## chasemukluk

mikesmith66 said:


> Pretty good assessment of some days I've had recently ha ha. Once you r dig those holes in a "bad" area, it starts to get tough to shoot around them. In fact, most times, it's not even worth trying to shoot around them.
> 
> This brings up another tid bit of advice for someone to experiment with: the size of your aiming dot/pin. For years I shot a center drill, .019 fiber for indoor. Shot some very good scores with it over the years. Even a couple 300-27x.But 2 years ago I started having some issues watching my pin. I was so focused on holding steady, I lost focus on actually shooting the shot. This year I decided to try a black sticky dot after talking with N7709K thru a few pm's this past winter. I stuck one on that is just slightly bigger than the 10ring with my 4x lense. AFter shooting it for about a week, I was experiencing a new level of comfort shooting at 3 spots. Not only did the dot show less movement while aiming, but it also covered up those holes that are hanging on the 10 ring line. I could anchor, relax my brain, and just run the release like I'm supposed to.
> 
> So dont be afraid to mess with pins/dots. A little change like that might just be enough to help a guy pick up another point, or 2. And picking up points is good for the confidence.........which leads to more points.


I have a tendency to follow my shots or follow my holes as well. Maybe a spot on my scope would help that feeling of holding off the spot I don't want to hit again. Not that a 10 is bad, but I just prefer the x! Of course my goal is to shoot 30 great shots. I usually don't keep score in league, so I don't know what I shot until the end. Well, a lot of times I obviously know when I miss the 10 ring. Thanks for all the advice!


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## chasemukluk

N7709K said:


> to get those last 3 points you need to step back and look into what the cause(s) are for the dropped points; are their similarities when misses occur, do you have little form inconsistencies, etc? There isn't a trick to pick up those three points; they come one at a time and with changes between each plateau, and lots of shots... like tens of thousands to bring the average up.
> 
> Best place to start is on a very close bale shooting blank bale learning your shot; work on form, shot timing, consistency, getting each shot to feel exactly the same. after things are working and shots are flowing hang a target and shoot close games at 5yds or so; work on shooting good shot and shoot for single hole targets NOT scores(don't shoot at 5yds for XXXX number of arrows, until you hit a perfect score, etc). After you are shooting consistent clean games with good shots start moving back at a couple yds at a time moving back ONLY when shots are rolling good and shots are CONSISTENT. all told it'll take probably 6months or so to go from blank bale to worked back to 18m; once there you'll hit with 300 a few times and you'll find the changes you need to make to the bow.
> 
> you'll shoot 300's and flirt with them for a while. you'll find the form changes you need to make and your scores will drop a little at first and then come back to a higher x average. after you hit bout a 325 average it becomes all mental


Thank you!


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## chasemukluk

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. My shot continues to improve and I shot a 300, 57x on the 5 spot a couple days ago. In that round I hit 32 consecutive X's. The next day I just went out to practice and keep track of consecutive x's while working on keeping my bow shoulder down and I ended up shooting 37 x's in a row on the 5 spot. The 32 and then 37 xs were my best two runs to date. So. that tells me I am able to shoot that 300 game on the Vegas face. This was done with my 70 lb GT500 and skinny hunting arrows.


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## shiftydog

Good shooting, Chasemukluk.

I'm not shooting much 18m at the moment, as I'm trying hard to improve my 50m game (which, thankfully, is getting better). This winter/spring I shot my first 300 on a five-spot, which was a big moment for me. I've done it a couple of times now, but I'd say I'm mostly a 298-299 average with about 40x. Really need to boost that x count.

I'm a low-mid 290s shooter on a Vegas three-spot. Letting down when things aren't perfect is my biggest hurdle. I just never wanted to do it. I'm slowly starting to let down now, but I need to do it more often. It's a foolish to think I can just save the shot when my float starts off bad, but I continue to do it far too often.


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## BearArcher1980

I can speak from what has worked for ME and ME alone. Maybe it will give you some insight.
When I first started doing the indoor game 2 years ago I started at a 287/27x with my hunting setup just to see how good of a shot I was. The game got me hooked, this was during Oct of 2012. In Feb. of 2013 I bought a target setup for BHFS and started working very intensely with Alan (nuts&bolts) and the past year through 2013 seen such vast improvements.
For me what worked the best was first writing down my shot routine down in complete detail to when I would breathe and exhale. Followed it every time at 5 yards and went through the tuning process to find my perfect setup for ME. This took me months of practice and training routines given to me by Alan. By this last Oct. I was shooting 300/58-59x consistently and 299/25-28x on the Vegas face. In November I broke my first 300/60 and finally got my first 300/27x Vegas face. I have shot 4 perfect 300/60 since and only two 300 Vegas faces one with 27x one with 28x. 
Working solely on my short game and doing hours upon hours of shot training and my routine is what helped me the most. 
Once you get to the 300/52+ its all mental on the 5 spot face. I would shoot my practice rounds clean then once they said "first scoring round" I would drop an X on the first end then clean the rest. Developing the mental side of archery is the hardest part, you reach that plateau and it drives you nuts because you know you can shoot a clean game. Then once you break that 300/60 or a 300 Vegas face you expect yourself to keep that up, and you start trying too hard, then your mental game breaks down because you are letting your mind take over again and not trusting the hard work and hours of shot training you put in. A lot of people don't realize the hours of practice top level shooters put in.
Me personally I have already started my indoor practicing routine and getting ready for indoor season where everyone else is still shooting outside. 
Don't get me wrong I am still doing the outdoor tourneys but my weekly practice has all been indoors getting ready.
Once you get your bow perfectly tuned for you and your body its all about your shot routine and mental game.
By the way only two of my 300/60x were in leagues, the rest was just in practice.


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## Blue X

BearArcher1980 said:


> I can speak from what has worked for ME and ME alone. Maybe it will give you some insight.
> When I first started doing the indoor game 2 years ago I started at a 287/27x with my hunting setup just to see how good of a shot I was. The game got me hooked, this was during Oct of 2012. In Feb. of 2013 I bought a target setup for BHFS and started working very intensely with Alan (nuts&bolts) and the past year through 2013 seen such vast improvements.
> For me what worked the best was first writing down my shot routine down in complete detail to when I would breathe and exhale. Followed it every time at 5 yards and went through the tuning process to find my perfect setup for ME. This took me months of practice and training routines given to me by Alan. By this last Oct. I was shooting 300/58-59x consistently and 299/25-28x on the Vegas face. In November I broke my first 300/60 and finally got my first 300/27x Vegas face. I have shot 4 perfect 300/60 since and only two 300 Vegas faces one with 27x one with 28x.
> Working solely on my short game and doing hours upon hours of shot training and my routine is what helped me the most.
> Once you get to the 300/52+ its all mental on the 5 spot face. I would shoot my practice rounds clean then once they said "first scoring round" I would drop an X on the first end then clean the rest. Developing the mental side of archery is the hardest part, you reach that plateau and it drives you nuts because you know you can shoot a clean game. Then once you break that 300/60 or a 300 Vegas face you expect yourself to keep that up, and you start trying too hard, then your mental game breaks down because you are letting your mind take over again and not trusting the hard work and hours of shot training you put in. A lot of people don't realize the hours of practice top level shooters put in.
> Me personally I have already started my indoor practicing routine and getting ready for indoor season where everyone else is still shooting outside.
> Don't get me wrong I am still doing the outdoor tourneys but my weekly practice has all been indoors getting ready.
> Once you get your bow perfectly tuned for you and your body its all about your shot routine and mental game.
> By the way only two of my 300/60x were in leagues, the rest was just in practice.


Perfectly said. I feel you joy and ur pain!!!
There are no more perfect words that can be typed to describe the journey. 

Blue X


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## BearArcher1980

I just want to add, keep up the hard work and it will pay off big time. Reach your goals man, they are attainable and you can do it. Just focus on your shot routine and get it down to where you don't "think" about it and just let it happen. Yes its easier said than done, believe me I know, but it works.
Good luck and keep at it!!!


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## carlielos

The Short and sweet of it!
You have to get anal about your equipment, from bow tune, your form, micro adjusting draw length, to stance, grip and even follow thru, if you want a 300 you have to do the work!


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## BearArcher1980

Blue X said:


> Perfectly said. I feel you joy and ur pain!!!
> There are no more perfect words that can be typed to describe the journey.
> 
> Blue X


That's just it...its a journey and you never stop the journey, it just keeps evolving. 
Next you start working for inside out X and only count those etc. 
It becomes an addiction in an addiction lol.


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## aread

Shooting 300's requires a few things:
- a solid shot sequence that follow precisely on every arrow
- confidence & belief that you are a 300 shooter

A few years ago, I put these two together and was shooting I/O 60X's. I started at 5 yards and shot two 5 spot rounds a day. It took less time to reach 20 yards that than I thought it would. I carefully followed my shot sequence on every arrow & thought I was going to Vegas & show those guys how to do it. Unfortunately, it was a bad shot sequence. The weak part was conscious punching of the release. It also involved some tension in my bow arm that developed into tendonitis in my elbow at about the same time that I achieved 60X. At my first indoor shoot year, my elbow was sore, but a little advil and ice was controlling it. I got to the line & right behind me was Mike Leiter. Facing me was lefty Darin McCutcheon. My shot sequence that worked so well in a low pressure practice situation, totally failed me. So I tried harder to shoot X's. To make an already long story a little shorter, I quickly developed a bad case of TP and really damaged my elbow. It took me 3 years to get over my elbow problems and about the same amount of time to control my TP.

The moral of this? One, if something hurts when you shoot, quit shooting an get it fixed. Two, a shot sequence is necessary to improved shooting, but you need a good one that doesn't include drive by shooting and punching. 

Allen


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## Uzurmnd247

I noticed that there was nothing mentioned about fatigue. If you think you are as strong on the last shot as your first, Wrong! Being in shape helps your confidence and mental thinking. Try some exercises that help in maintaining your form and strength. You can never go wrong with cardio either. Good luck, and have plenty of patience.


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## chasemukluk

Thanks for all the great feedback! I will be sure to post up in the future when I hit my next mark!


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## sharkred7

Great info in this thread. I would like to add one thing.....MIND SET. I go into every practice, league and tournament with the mindset I know I am going to shoot a 300. I tell people to focus on the goal after the one you haven't completed.

What I'm trying to say is if you want to shoot a vegas 300, your goal is to shoot 30 baby x's. On the 5 spot I track my inside out x's already confident that I will shoot 60. If you concentrate on the next level all of a sudden you will have your 300 or 60X because you were focused on something smaller.

Keep lots of notes, shoot with a buddy for a pop or something to add some pressure to your practice also.

I was practicing for vegas when I shot my first 600 many years ago. I was shooting 2 targets and 6 arrows per end (basically a double game) after my 8th end I was clean and I went to get the shop owner to come watch me finish to add some pressure to prepare for the big show. I ended up with a 300 24 and a 300 21 with pins.

If you have the chance, get with the best archers you can and shoot with/against them. You need to add pressure to your practice to find out if your shot routine will hold up in tournaments or league.


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## ron w

fatigue, is something that really shouldn't be an issue with 30 or 40 shots. if it is , you are probably over bowed.

sharkred7 is right, but I'll warn, you have to have your shot process and execution well established, before it will be up to that challenge.


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## N7709K

if you are ultimately training to win vegas you need to be able to shoot 12x's- thats all; you shoot a 90 arrow qualifier over 3 days to shoot 12 arrows. you can train in 30 arrow games, 12 arrow sets, however... all told the end result should be shooting good shots under the conditions of vegas. 

personally i'd shoot only inner face games in 2x 600's and i'd run a 3/2 on upclose blank bale and close games: 18m scores. the setup and tuning aspect is easy- its 18m, if the arrows print tight thats all that matters... don't waste time on bareshaft or this or that. shoot matches; hadicapped matches or matches against shooters of the same or better skill level- get the pressure, get used to how POI changes when you try to shoot x's instead of shooting good shots. 

after a season or two you'll get to where there isn't a doubt of "will i shoot a 300". you mark you x's and when you get done you see where you finished; as you progress you rate games on whether they will play or where you would end up in qualifiers at say Telford or Nimes.


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## Ned250

sharkred7 said:


> Great info in this thread. I would like to add one thing.....MIND SET. I go into every practice, league and tournament with the mindset I know I am going to shoot a 300. I tell people to focus on the goal after the one you haven't completed.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is if you want to shoot a vegas 300, your goal is to shoot 30 baby x's. On the 5 spot I track my inside out x's already confident that I will shoot 60. If you concentrate on the next level all of a sudden you will have your 300 or 60X because you were focused on something smaller.
> 
> Keep lots of notes, shoot with a buddy for a pop or something to add some pressure to your practice also.
> 
> I was practicing for vegas when I shot my first 600 many years ago. I was shooting 2 targets and 6 arrows per end (basically a double game) after my 8th end I was clean and I went to get the shop owner to come watch me finish to add some pressure to prepare for the big show. I ended up with a 300 24 and a 300 21 with pins.
> 
> If you have the chance, get with the best archers you can and shoot with/against them. You need to add pressure to your practice to find out if your shot routine will hold up in tournaments or league.


This is an outstanding point that goes unnoticed a lot. Someone else up-thread hinted at it, but it's amazing what your mindset controls. It's also a slippery slope as many of us tend to convince ourselves of what our actual capabilities are.


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## Padgett

For me I just did my training drills that I enjoy doing where I don't do scoring rounds but count x's or inside out shots and after a while I started realizing that I was going hundreds of shots over a few days without dropping a x, this confidence that I could hit x's on a 5 spot target or stay inside the 10 ring on a vegas is what allowed me to shoot 300's almost every time I shoot a scoring round now.

In the beginning when all I did was shoot scoring rounds I struggled, to me it is a confidence thing.


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## jrdrees

Good read here, lots to ponder about my approach to improvement.


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## Padgett

I will say that I regret not doing the short game thing, my friend Sam who is a top indoor pro now told me to do the short 60x rounds and then work my way back to 20 yards shooting 60x rounds at each distance until I got there. There are many pro shooters that have chimed in on becoming a 60x shooter and have said this is a good way to get there.


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## N7709K

im not a proponent of blueface but the only time its somewhat beneficial is up close when you are trying to build the mental image that you are a a high level shooter- got a big middle to aim at and lots of room for error. 7-10yds if you put all 60 touching the blue x you would have hit all 60 at 20. That said, inner face or vegas up close and worked back will bring your scores up faster and bring your groups in tighter.

when you shoot close games you need to approach them the same as any other shot you take; when you get in the mindset of "this is only 10yds, this doesn't count, of course im not gonna miss" you ain't doing a damn bit of good. Put the dot in the middle, shoot a good shot, reinforce the mental image of the arrow in the x as a result of a good shot. Same for blank bale, if you just flog the bale you might as well go home.. you aint getting anything out of it; and your attitude towards it reflects your approach as a shooter. You can shoot only close games for practice and beat out the majority of shooters at 20yds in comp.... or at 50m... or 90m... when all you do is shoot good shots, thats all you do.

if you want it you cannot rush it; you need to put the effort and the time in. thats all that it comes down to- you cannot bandaid your way to 30x games in vegas


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## montigre

I'll be honest and state that I am, at most, a mediocre shooter when it comes to the Vegas face and I am reading these posts with great interest so I can develop a working plan to change my current attitude and mind-set about the game. So, thanks to all who have posted thus far--I have quite a few little gems to work with now...


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## Joe Schnur

On short games I am shooting scaled targets I assumed this was the only way to compare. Or am I missing something


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## aread

Joe Schnur said:


> On short games I am shooting scaled targets I assumed this was the only way to compare. Or am I missing something


A big part of the benefit of short games is to build confidence, so it's better to use full size targets. Of course confidence at 10 yards doesn't translate to confidence at 20 yards, so you'll want to gradually work back in short increments to continue to build confidence.

Confidence is a one of the contributors to accuracy because a confident shot is a relaxed shot. When you have confidence in your shot, you can just relax and focus on execution.

Allen


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## SonnyThomas

Everyone is different. Me, I'd use a standard Vegas target. Up close and personal, 10 yards or less, you pound that tiny X ring is a accomplishment. Like aread, back up a yard and get it accomplished again. Not saying you'll be perfect as you add yards, but ripping that X ring and crushing the 10 ring is doing something. 

Terror! I remember my first ever Vegas face event, a IAA sanctioned Qualifier at that time. I never saw a Vegas face target before! Never! Say intimidated with capital letters. Arrows bouncing off steel door. Shot another person's target. Some how I ended up with a 575/600. Yes, we shot 60 arrows straight through, not the 30 today 30 tomorrow and 30 the last day like at Vegas. Actually, I was told I did pretty good considering my first ever Vegas face and then missing one shot. I used my 3D bow, 62 pounds, and 2413s. And for whatever reason I had to reset my windage. Luckily, they shot 2 ends of practice so I could adjust some. I think I adjusted a tiny bit more in the event.


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## ron w

5 spot,.... shoot those last 6 arrows, just like you shot the other 56.
vegas...same thing, you have to shoot 30 x's in a row on a 5 spot face, to shoot a 300 on a vegas face.


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## WhitBri

One thing I am working on this year in my mental approach is to go into the shot to hit the x. Not don't shoot s 9. Still have to get better at shooting one arrow at a time


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## SonnyThomas

Well, yes, positive is gooder....


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## Joe Schnur

Mental and repeatability of all aspects of your shot are essential.eliminate variation


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## chasemukluk

Hey all, just following up on this thread as I forgot about it. Even though I started it. Winter league started back up and my last three games on the Vegas face were 298 14x, 298 17x and 298 21x. I actually dropped a point on my last end of the 21x game. Before the last end, I shot 13x in a row. Then went and shot a 9, 10, 10 on my last end. Clearly mental and too much thinking... Thanks again for all the great feedback!


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## chasemukluk

Hi all. Thanks again for all the awesome tips and feedback. My 298 game is pretty consistent at this point. I haven't been able to shoot a ton in the last 6 months, sold our house, bought a house, had a baby boy, but when I do get out I can still get to that 298 mark on the regular. 

It is all mental with me and I know it. My two misses in the 30 arrows are completely mental. It is amazing how much better your shot feels when you are not thinking about anything. It's almost effortless and the 10s/xs just stack up. 

This winter, my goal is to work backwards like all the suggestions. Work on exciting good shots. Shots that feel good.

This thread has taught me a bunch and I just wanted to say thank you to all of you that took the time to share your experiences!

Happy shooting.


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## Padgett

Just over two weeks ago I got to go into the indoor range and shoot for the first time all summer and the first day was weird, I just didn't feel right being indoor and shooting after shooting 3d all summer and spring. It was like my brain was looking for extra stuff to see and make decisions about and there just isn't anything when shooting indoor. When shooting 3d there is always something to deal with other than just aiming so it took me a good 40 shots to settle down and then I got to enjoy a few days of banging x's. I will say that each day was better than the one before for those indoor days because the more I shot the more I just smoothly executed my shots and my arrows got tighter and tighter. To me indoor teaches you to be really smooth about each and every little thing because jerky or forced parts of the shot just send arrows away from the goal.


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## jmclfrsh

Are you using the same equipment as your outside 3D shooting, i.e., same bow, release and arrows, or do you have two entirely different setups?

Or is it a combination of the two?


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## chasemukluk

jmclfrsh said:


> Are you using the same equipment as your outside 3D shooting, i.e., same bow, release and arrows, or do you have two entirely different setups?
> 
> Or is it a combination of the two?


This time of year yes. This is my 70lb hunting bow set up for 3d. So I was shooting my DCA Target shafts, 28" stab out front and 12 out the back. CBE Quadlite 3d with a 4x lense. 70lbs. After bow season I will set it up as a spot bow and turn it down to about 63 pounds or so, and shoot either these 23 series arrows or some 27s.

I actually just set this bow up as my hunting bow in the last week or so. Different arrows, sight, stabs.


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## chasemukluk

Shot my first 299 this week on the Vegas face. Actually bought a used PSE Dominator Max 3d that I am going to use for indoors and field. Low x count(15), but I don't have the bow fully set up yet and it was the 3rd or 4th time I shot it. I need to get the timing situated, creep tune and slow down the float a little bit. Just wanted to say again, thanks for all the advice!


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## Garceau

I am not a spot shooter. My current job and place of work doesn't allow me the time to shoot leagues during the week. I can definitely tell during indoor 3D on the weekends that my shot isn't where it needs to be. Set up a new bow last week and needed to shoot a round to get some serious time with the bow and feel for it. 

So with my ASA set up which is 22s and a 10 though pin I did this



















It literally was the first time I've shot at vegas face for 30 arrows in several years. 

As much as I'd like to say otherwise, this was only 10 yards. But I learned a lot. Plus all of a sudden I have new urge to do it again at 12.5 yards. Then 15.....etc

Where does that urge come from ? Confidence I presume. It goes a long ways......


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## TNMAN

Garceau said:


> I am not a spot shooter----


You could have left out the 10 yard confession, but then you'd get a rep for lying. That's still good shooting. You need to do more of it.


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## chasemukluk

Nice shooting! I was about to tell you to go to Vegas!


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## Garceau

TNMAN said:


> You could have left out the 10 yard confession, but then you'd get a rep for lying. That's still good shooting. You need to do more of it.


I was messing with all my spottie buddies in Facebook. Posting pics of each end. They were blowing up my phone. When I posted last end I said in 30 mins I will give you all the secret. Then I announced 10 yards. 

I'm reality. I was happy with the process and it built confidence and stamina. Almost makes me want to shoot spots. Lol

Spots are essential to being a strong shooter all around. Builds stamina and confidence.


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## chasemukluk

Garceau said:


> I was messing with all my spottie buddies in Facebook. Posting pics of each end. They were blowing up my phone. When I posted last end I said in 30 mins I will give you all the secret. Then I announced 10 yards.
> 
> I'm reality. I was happy with the process and it built confidence and stamina. Almost makes me want to shoot spots. Lol
> 
> Spots are essential to being a strong shooter all around. Builds stamina and confidence.


I really enjoy shooting spots, but once spring hits I enjoy shooting outside much better. I do enjoy shooting a nice field course, but most of my buddies can hardly get through a dang 3d course without getting tired, lol. I need to find some real shooters to shoot with. Don't have to be good, but someone who can shoot more than 3 dozen arrows.  

Back to spots, its interesting, because once I start shooting them I get addicted very quickly. I feel the need to shoot every day. And with a 6 month old, it'll be a couple years until he can go with me!


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## Chase Hatcher

I am by no means a pro, but I do alright. The thing that helped me the most was improving my shot timing as well as not trying to be too finite with my aiming. I found that as long as my shot breaks within a 5-6 sec aiming period that I didnt have to be holding exactly in the middle to hit exactly in the middle. A good friend of mine (who is a very successful pro) also had me to start adding movement in my hinge release to make it fire. I used to let my hand stretch to fire my shot and thus works well for 3d, but my misses indoor would come from the bobbles I got in my hold then the moment from the bobble would cause my shot to break. I keep tension throughout the shot but I do roll through the shot.


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## chasemukluk

Shot another 299. Lost it on my 26th arrow. Had one other that barely touched the bottom of the ten ring on my first end. I know I can do it! Sooner rather than later!


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## deer_slayer1982

Don't aim for the 10 ring what you need to think is if I don't have a dead center x I missed. When I started shooting 21x rounds I starting to shoot a few 300's when i started shooting 23 x rounds they started coming easy.


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## Reverend

In for the education... I'm about to start my short game on a Vegas face and there's a wealth of great info here. 
Thanks to all who've contributed.:thumbs_up


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## centershot

Shoot 450 rounds - sooner or later you will have 2 consecutive 150 rounds and there you go a 300. Then you have done it, know it can be done and move on to upping your X count. If you still struggle with that move up to 10 yards and do it until it is easy/boring, move back to 15 repeat, then on to 20. It's all about getting used to and expecting a result. Confidence is key.


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