# Trouble keeping front shoulder down



## Chase Hatcher (Jan 30, 2012)




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## Chase Hatcher (Jan 30, 2012)

in this photo my hands do not align like I've been told they're supposed to. How do you make them align without raising your front shoulder?


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## Chase Hatcher (Jan 30, 2012)




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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

This should probably be in the Coaches Corner section, but the primary glaring thing I see in these pics is that your DL appears to be about 1/2" too short (maybe even a little more). The fact that you have to "dip and tip" your head to see through the peep tells me you're bunching up your upper body in response to the DL; hence the raised front shoulder.

Forget about the hands aligning; the elbow is key here. Under optimal conditions and barring any prior injuries that limit range of motion, the rear elbow should end up directly behind the arrow when you reach anchor. Your rear elbow is pushing out to the right quite a lot. Adjusting the DL will allow you to expand your chest and relax into the full draw/anchor position much more easily and with a lot less upper body tension. 

You can test this quickly simply by taking a couple/few of turns out of your limb bolts.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Overall you have decent form and are in the dial it in perfectly phase, to me you are probably creating this high front shoulder issue by slightly pushing forward with your front arm during your shot. 

So

Simply allow your front arm to totally relax and push back into your body and what this is going to do is lower your shoulder and clean up a lot of extra muscle tension in your forearm and shoulder muscles that doesn't need to exist in your shot. Why does this work? Because most of your muscles go over the top of the shoulder and when you activate them they pull the shoulder up creating the problem that you are having. 

Secondly and it doesn't look like you are doing it but I am going to mention it anyway because you may be doing it, Don't be locking out your front elbow. The moment you lock it out it forces your forearm muscles to tense up with muscle tension to keep it there so right now I need you to just stand there with no bow and feel what I am talking about. Extend your arm in front of you like you are holding a bow properly and then lock out your elbow and feel the muscle tension that i am talking about then slightly unlock the elbow and instantly that muscle tension vanishes and your elbow looks slightly bent even though it really isn't.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Agree with montigre. When your draw length is too short, you're conforming your body to the bow, instead of conforming the bow to your body. You'll never be able to get into the correct positioning with the bow set how it is now. I'll pm you some information to get you started.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Which picture are you guys seeing his draw length so well to be able to make a decision on correct or not correct draw length. Is it in this thread or another one?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

You can look at any of them in this thread. Check his bow shoulder. It's hunched up and pulled back. If he extends this shoulder out to be in correct form to use his skeletal structure for support then his string will not come back to his face in the same manner. It might not even touch his face at all depending on his body and how far out the shoulder joint needs to go.


Padgett said:


> Which picture are you guys seeing his draw length so well to be able to make a decision on correct or not correct draw length. Is it in this thread or another one?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Padgett, you can see here pretty well actually. You can't see a straight line forming throughout the shoulder. The shoulder is up and the arm is down below the joint. This is creating a hinge point for him and likely giving him issues with up and down's and maybe a bob in his sight picture or a low hold.


Chase Hatcher said:


> View attachment 3237722


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, I thought you guys had better pictures than those. I don't like to make that call on weird pictures where I can't really see what I need to see, I have been working with a guy lately that by just changing a few things with his stance and front arm we made a draw length that look 1 inch to short absolutely perfect.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The picture that he is shooting 3d he is actually contorting his lower body pretty bad. His hips are more open than his shoulders and this tells me that he has some issues in his posture and all of those issues are going to affect the draw length setting. So to me I need to see him in what he believes to be his perfect form on level ground and then take a good picture where I can see him from head to toe, then I can make a really good evaluation.

Guys with contorted bodies where the hips don't line up with the shoulders create muscle tension in their core body that affects the whole system just like any tension that is there that shouldn't be.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The rear elbow can be used as a red flag that the draw length is wrong but in the end a person has a window of acceptable placement with a given draw length. As long as it isn't affecting the form in a negative way it can be slightly higher than level and not be a indication of improper draw length. Chris perkins is one of my favorite pro shooters that seems to have a slightly lower than level rear elbow than level. Very few people have it in that position and most are level or slightly above.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I can agree with the open stance and how is body is twisted. But, if he were to square up more and become more even with his stance, it would make the same draw length even shorter to his body than what it is now. His stance might even be a devlopment of the too short of a draw length he has now and his body trying to adapt. 

The bow's draw length and loop length seperate the front and back half of the body. Looking at an archer's release elbow can't always be a tell tale sign of draw length. 

You need to have the bow set up with a draw length that allows the archer to have good form with his body in place how it should be and the string come to the face lightly for an anchor point. Then work the loop length to get the release elbow and back shoulder extended to the correct position to allow the right amount of leverage and to get the correct muscles engaged into the shot.


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## Labs (Jun 3, 2004)

Padgett said:


> Overall you have decent form and are in the dial it in perfectly phase, to me you are probably creating this high front shoulder issue by slightly pushing forward with your front arm during your shot.
> 
> This thread has me thinking...not always good...but Terry Wunderle encourages shooters to give a slight forward push with the bow arm to tighten the float. I do this and it seems to help me for the most part but what I've always worried about was how do I make sure I am "pushing" with the same amount of force every shot? The name of this game is consistency and I am not sure I can say I am 100% consistent with any forward pressure as evidenced by my inconsistencies. Interested to hear others thoughts on this issue....thanks


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Labs said:


> Padgett said:
> 
> 
> > Overall you have decent form and are in the dial it in perfectly phase, to me you are probably creating this high front shoulder issue by slightly pushing forward with your front arm during your shot.
> ...


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Cool, I thought you guys had better pictures than those. I don't like to make that call on weird pictures where I can't really see what I need to see, I have been working with a guy lately that by just changing a few things with his stance and front arm we made a draw length that look 1 inch to short absolutely perfect.


Changing just the stance and front arm of this shooter will have him anchoring his release next to his chin. It is pretty clear to my eyes that he is too short in his DL and yes, there are other form issues going on that will eventually need correcting, but if the draw is not corrected first, fixing the other things out of order will just have him chasing his tail.... We've all been there before.....


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

dmacey said:


> Labs said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking for myself only, I've tried the "push" idea and found that it doesn't work for me. I'm not sure why, but that causes me to tense up my forearm muscles and I lose contact with the back muscles when I do that. I prefer to think of the bow arm as a "column" that simply supports the bow, with the entire works between the grip and the release hand "hanging" on the back muscles only. For me, that helps me relax all the small muscles, especially in the bow arm, which significantly steadies my float.
> ...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just now looked at this. Post #2 picture not so much until I saw Post #4 picture. Look at his hips, knees, top of his boots. Whoever took the picture was angularly down range. His entire upper torso is twisted in order to shoot at the target. Go back to Post #3 picture and you can his t-shirt gives of him being twisted. I just tried to draw like he's standing. Not impossible, but I felt pulled out of whack where nothing felt right.....


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

RCR_III said:


> Padgett, you can see here pretty well actually. You can't see a straight line forming throughout the shoulder. The shoulder is up and the arm is down below the joint. This is creating a hinge point for him and likely giving him issues with up and down's and maybe a bob in his sight picture or a low hold.


I would agree with this,as I had the same problem and had to address it in the same manner.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Montigre, I have been thinking about draw length and how to help people for a while now and what first struck me was nuts and bolts. He always tells people to start changing it right from the start and to start doing testing of the point of impact or the bare shaft results before he helps them with their form. I always thought that this was a bad idea with people that are decent from head to toe like the guy in this thread. If a shooter is poor from head to toe and also has obvious draw length issues then of course make a guess to shortening it or lengthen it and get started. With this guy though I am not sure that getting his body posture taken care of first and the front arm wouldn't be a better option to start the process and then add some draw length as the final step. 

The key to me is owning a rotating mod bow so that you can simply fix the posture issue and then check the current setting and change to a little longer setting and check again and you are done in less than 20 minutes. so many of these draw specific bows or change the mod bows and not having access to them is a huge problem where a guy can't just see the truth right now and have to spend money on a mod or a new cam just to see the truth.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

OP, questions I don't see above is: "How are you shooting now?"
Why do you want to make a change?

Allen


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I answered that question myself a few years ago after I had a winter where I shot about 10 60x rounds of 5-spot, my answer was that I couldn't beat Reo or Levi or Jesse so I am going to make the changes to close the gap right now and not later.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

You aren't too far from Nathan Brooks over at Alma, AR. He can help you a lot in a few sessions, given the potential I think you have.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> Montigre, I have been thinking about draw length and how to help people for a while now and what first struck me was nuts and bolts. He always tells people to start changing it right from the start and to start doing testing of the point of impact or the bare shaft results before he helps them with their form. I always thought that this was a bad idea with people that are decent from head to toe like the guy in this thread. If a shooter is poor from head to toe and also has obvious draw length issues then of course make a guess to shortening it or lengthen it and get started. With this guy though I am not sure that getting his body posture taken care of first and the front arm wouldn't be a better option to start the process and then add some draw length as the final step.


Not necessarily meaning to defend N&B as he can take care of himself, but, well... to defend him on this point anyway . And to perhaps parlay that into a question relevant to the thread as well: It would seem to me that, on the compound, most form difficulties (but not all) are actually driven by improper draw length setting on the bow, are they not? At least, that's what I discovered personally this past summer when I started up archery again after about a 20 year layoff. When I did finally get past just the initial being able to hit the bail at all, and started paying attention to where the arrows landed, the target did reveal a problem. I was also having other major form and injury problems along with.

At the end of the day, it turned out my draw length was 1 1/2" too short. 

Now I agree, it could have been a chicken vs. egg thing in my case: what discovery came first, the too-short draw length or the out-of-line alignment? To be honest, I think it could have been resolved either way - someone looking at my form or someone looking at my target and observing a symptom of too-short-of-a-drawlength. 

So that's kind of where my defense of N&B comes in along with my question: might it actually still be a valid approach to assess the problem at the target, especially in a situation where you're not actually standing there with the archer? I have to say N&B does ask for a form picture early in the process rather than later, at least in the threads I've read, but I'm also wondering if it's not an ineffective approach to start at the target (the "results based tuning" idea)? Are the symptoms at the target reliable enough to make a judgment?

In my case, as I said above, I probably could have arrived at my solution either way - someone looking at my target and bareshafts and diagnosing an alignment issue from that _or_ simply observing my form directly and seeing that I was way too "outside" the bow in my alignment. 

But to be honest, I don't really know. But I don't think "results based tuning" is completely bereft, I guess is what I'm thinking. What do you think?

DM


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

It's likely a matter of perspective, but I personally have much better uses for mico tuning draw than fixing bare shaft impacts. At any rate, all AT advice is self-correcting. If it doesn't work for folks, they try something else.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Montigre, I have been thinking about draw length and how to help people for a while now and what first struck me was nuts and bolts. He always tells people to start changing it right from the start and to start doing testing of the point of impact or the bare shaft results before he helps them with their form. I always thought that this was a bad idea with people that are decent from head to toe like the guy in this thread. If a shooter is poor from head to toe and also has obvious draw length issues then of course make a guess to shortening it or lengthen it and get started. With this guy though I am not sure that getting his body posture taken care of first and the front arm wouldn't be a better option to start the process and then add some draw length as the final step.
> 
> The key to me is owning a rotating mod bow so that you can simply fix the posture issue and then check the current setting and change to a little longer setting and check again and you are done in less than 20 minutes. so many of these draw specific bows or change the mod bows and not having access to them is a huge problem where a guy can't just see the truth right now and have to spend money on a mod or a new cam just to see the truth.


I have also been thinking and working with people's form/execution issues as asst head coach for the Maryland Adaptive Archery Program for the past 6 years. We work with anywhere from 3-10 shooters every week who range in disability levels from PTSD to quadriplegia and skill levels from rank beginner to a member of the current US Paralympic Archery team. I am also a successful active competitive shooter who is currently working through some major medical issues, so I have a pretty firm grasp of shooting form and function that I believe is somewhat more applicable to the content of this forum than nuts and bolts' let's try this approach that you allude to. 

Speaking of form, the OP, though overall fairly decent, is not "okay from head to toe"; he is very obviously corkscrewing his lower body while bunching up his upper body AND he has a draw length issue. I am also aware that some bows do not have adjustable mods and it is for this reason, I suggested that the OP just take a few turns out of his limbs to lengthen his DL without markedly altering his timing and without costing him a dime. If the longer DL allows him to drop the front shoulder, move his anchor back, and relax his rear arm behind the arrow a little better, then he can either make the change permanent by adjusting/changing his mods or purchasing the appropriate cam/harness to achieve that DL. Although I cannot really say because none of the pictures give a good visualization of what is going on from his waist down, it is very possible that shortening the DL may also decrease the amount of corkscrewing that the OP is developing through his shot cycle. 

As an aside, I normally do not post on here much unless, through my personal experience, I have something to offer that may be of direct benefit to another archer(s). I don't need to hear myself talk, I don't care who gets in the last word on a thread, and I don't reply to a post just for the sake of it. Respect me as I respect you and some others here who have serious string time under their belts and do not compare my recommendations to nuts and bolts' or any of the other arm chair champions, for that matter....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm not bashing him just pointing out his order of approaching things, I would have never noticed it unless I had started helping people with their form in the same threads that nuts and bolts also was helping. Back when I wasn't knowledgeable enough to know how to help people I just read the threads and followed along but once I became strong enough to actually help I started seeing things such as how the top coaches here present their information. 

That forced me to come up with my own personal approach that to me was the most solid choice, I do this with each section of archery from execution to game play to form to tuning etc. That is what defines me as a coach and a shooter. 

One of the first things I noticed is that almost everyone is way to long on their draw length and once they adopt a more open stance it was going to get worse so you had to instruct them very soon in the process to shorten the draw length. With a guy that is a little short on their draw length the approach is way different because if he has a square or closed stance with a extended arm that is also locked out with a high grip by the time I open him up and teach him to use a proper front arm and grip it can make that short draw length just perfect.

So to me I have to access the individual and choose my strategy to get my thoughts on their body across to them without the bow holding them back from actually doing it, many times the bow just kills any chance of helping them because of the lack of a rotating module and them needing to go 2 hours to a bow shop with a press.

The other thing if you pay attention to me in these threads is I ask people all the time to remove their peep or at least use masking tape to hide it, incorrect draw length along with a peep set to that draw length that may also be attached to a crappy anchor basically breeds a dish of bacteria that infects the whole process.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> I'm not bashing him just pointing out his order of approaching things, I would have never noticed it unless I had started helping people with their form in the same threads that nuts and bolts also was helping. Back when I wasn't knowledgeable enough to know how to help people I just read the threads and followed along but once I became strong enough to actually help I started seeing things such as how the top coaches here present their information.


Ok, thanks, just curious. Speaking for myself, when working through my own shot, I can come at it from both directions in order to try to isolate a problem. For a recent example after picking up my compound again after about 3 months: I have a pattern of a shot that seems to feel relatively right, but at the target it tends to be an 8/9 liner on the upper right, with the arrow just slighly knock high/right in the bail. I know when I see that, even if I didn't detect it on the shot and let down like I should have, I know I collapsed a little on the back end and didn't pull straight back with back-tension like I normally do. That at least gives me the opportunity to review the shot and concentrate on not making that particular mistake again on the next one.

And, of course, the goal is to be able to recognize that during the shot setup so I can cancel and start over. But in the meantime, the target can serve as a diagnostic tool for me until I'm able to get to that point. 

Anyway, that's the only reason I sort of brought this up - I at least find the result-based approach valuable, which is why I was curious about ya'lls POV on it. 

PS: understood on jumping to the drawlength first, I see what you're saying there also.

DM


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been helping a lot of people with their form lately and to me my job from a keyboard is to get them in the ballpark with the draw length setting on their bow so that we can then work on their stance and front arm and rear arm and nail down what fundamental things that need to exist in their shooting. At that time once we are there with the shooting form sometimes they need to change the draw length module setting to get back in that good window of acceptable draw length.

Then it gets interesting because they are the final say on the perfect setting where they twist the bow string and find that draw length that isn't to short or to long and allows them to stay nice and solid on the wall. To me a entry level shooter may or may not be able to do the things asked of them with back tension to accomplish this for a while until everything settles in. That is why I bring up "Back Tension Preload" over and over in threads so that guys can visit this concept when they are ready and learn to use it to their advantage.


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