# Plunger is ripping apart my Vanes



## Kristjon (Feb 19, 2013)

So a few days ago, I shot my grouped arrows and bareshaft. The bareshaft was way Left of my arrow group and fairly low. So I moved my knock position till it was shooting consistantly 2-3 inches below group. Next I adjusted plunger tension to bring the bareshaft to being within 3 inches of group. Note, my plunger is set up so my arrow is just left of center (I'm right handed)

Over the course of a few days I noticed that every once in awhile a vane (Elivane IR3) would rip off in flight, or be found dangling on arrow at target. I started noticing white plastic around my shelf. I have a Olympic recurve set up, all Uukha parts. Upon closer examination I noticed my back tape to keep the ends of vanes down has been ripped through.

I just switched all the Elivanes for my Gas Pro and on shooting them this morning 2 of them got the vanes completely ripped apart. So now I'm looking at the plunger as the bad guy.

My local archery guy said to move my plunger out first then fiddle with the plunger tension. So I did that and even put red lipstick on plunger to see where its contacting the arrow. (side note I put lipstick on 3 vanes and shot to see if any transfer to rest or riser.. all clear. I used the Elivanes as they are taller than my Gas Pro). I still keep getting transfer to arrow and I can even still see slight damage to my vanes right where it held onto the shaft by the double sided tape.

Now my spring inside the plunger is the weakest one so maybe my plunger tension is still to weak?

Thanks for any input.


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## Kim Jong Skill (Dec 19, 2014)

I would try turning your nock so the outter edge of your vanes have clearance (not the base when you initially draw the lines to fletch your arrows) of your riser / clicker plate. Are you saying that your arrows are too stiff so they're making contact and ripping off your vanes because your plunger should never be touching your vanes so making your plunger tension weaker wont help (unless you're tuning a stiff arrow since you said your bare shafts are hitting left of group).


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

you don't adjust plunger to bring bareshaft into group. You adjust tiller bolts on the riser to go up in poundage to bring bareshaft into group. 



Chris


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Without a more complete picture of your setup, Hard to give accurate feedback. (no rig info, no poundages, no arrow info, no context of distances, no skill level metrics) What little we can surmise is that you are shooting arrows that are too stiff (left bare shaft) 

That being said, 

Sounds like you are having serious contact somewhere. Most of the time, with constant vane removal, it's too stiff of an arrow however too weak and the right timing can cause this kind of impact as well.

bareshaft tuning by just fiddling with plunger pressure/location, nock location, generally just masks a mismatch.

Read my sticky thread and fill in the blanks for us.. 

DC


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Based upon your initial description, I'm guessing the arrow spine is too stiff. Turn your limb bolts in (righty tighty) to increase your draw weight and weaken the dynamic spine of the arrows, hopefully providing you with more clearance.


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## Kristjon (Feb 19, 2013)

Skills
Intermediate, Olympic Recurve, 3yrs of shooting (Self taught), Right eye

Equipment

Uukha Uprolite Riser 25"
Uukha VX1000 Xcurve Long limbs #44
8125 string (18 strand) Sever string made nock point 2 of them above and below nock.
Ultimate RC Carbon sight
Fiberbow set for stabilizers

Fivicis 2 Finger Yellow tab release

Set Up

DW 43# (used a compound digital scale)
DL 26-1/4 (calculated by back on wall,relaxed, finger tips marked length divided by 2.5)
Brace height 9-1/4
Tiller Top 7-1/2 Bottom 7-1/8
Nock height see photo








Arrows, Vap V1, 800spine 110gr Top Hat points, Pin nock with "G" nocks
Arrow length (nock to end of shaft) 27-1/8"

Here you can see the plastic on my Gas Pro being creased from the plunger.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Thanks for the additional information.

According to some of those specifications it sounds like you may be one of the rare people that are shooting weak arrows and is getting a false stiff reading due to impact.

Some notes about your data.

DL while many shops use that wingspan divide by 2.5" I have found that to be the most unreliable way to measure DL. Mine is off by over an inch..

The proper way to measure DL is have someone you trust, stand next to you as you draw.. At full draw, have them mark your arrow at the plunger (or straight up from the pivot point) This is True Draw to Pivot Point or (TDPP) Then add 1.75" for AMO.

Tiller, 3/8" is a pretty big positive tiller. but that's just a number.

Your nock locators look about right for a good starting point.

If you are only tearing or ripping through the back tape wrap, and not tearing the front wrap as well, then I suspect you are shooting weak and that the impact is happening because the arrow is in full bend as it passes the riser and not recovering enough to start it bending the other way to clear the riser.

The far left bare shaft sounds like a false reading. especially if you are getting a consistent impact as the arrow goes past the plunger. It's probably causing your bare shaft to bounce that direction (left) and the fletched arrows are recovering enough to keep them straighter towards the target. 

800 spine at 27" would be more suited at about 36-38lbs. Considering you have heavier than 100gn points even more weakening of the shaft. The wraps may help a little with stiffening the shaft but you are also shooting extremely light vanes which will further weaken the shaft. tie on nock locators instead of brass, even more weakening of the dynamic spine. Easton pin nocks are among the lighter of pin nocks. switching to beiter over nocks may help. You can try lowering the poundage and see if you get better clearance.. 

DC


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## jwit76 (May 23, 2015)

chrstphr said:


> you don't adjust plunger to bring bareshaft into group. You adjust tiller bolts on the riser to go up in poundage to bring bareshaft into group.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


Amen to that, put that baby center shot with a matchstick stiff plunger and adjust that bow strength to bring your bare shafts into submission.


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## Kristjon (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks guys. To over come a false stiff what should I do? I have 600 spine arrows, I can put the 100g tips into those or break off and make them 80g.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

First you need to determine if you are indeed having a false stiff reading.

Couple more questions. 

Can you get a more accurate measurement of your DL?

what distance are you doing your initial testing at?

Are the 600 spine arrows also VAP's

Are they the exact same length or have they been cut or are they full length. at 600 I would suspect you may then be on the stiff side so don't break off the 100's yet.

What process did you go through to do your initial setup before actually trying to do a spine check?

Depending on which method you decide to use it should go something like this. 

Initial setup by eye. (arrow point just barely to the left of the string) your nock point is probably about right.
Plunger should be about medium or middle of the tension. Check for clearance.
Tiller should be just a little bit positive 1/8" - 1/4"
Brace height tuning to get the quietest release from the string.
Check for clearance again.

Now a bare shaft test. 25-30 Meters is good but start closer first to make sure a bare shaft doesn't end up buried in the grass behind the target. Where do the arrows land compared to the bare shaft?. Can you move the bare shaft in relation to the fletched arrows by changing draw weight (either way depending on reading) if so does it seem to follow what is expected (more weight makes the bare shaft move right in relation to the fletched) if it goes the wrong way or you can't get the bare shaft to join the rest of the arrows, then you are probably out of the range of that spine. Now it's time to decide how to get closer in spine. Do you start playing with point weight, arrow length (if you have the ability) nock weight, etc..?

if you don't get close with the configuration of the arrow to bow... then you need to change arrow spine.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

jwit76 said:


> Amen to that, *put that baby center shot with a matchstick stiff plunger* and adjust that bow strength to bring your bare shafts into submission.


No, don't do this. It's an unnecessary waste of time. Set center shot as dchan described and leave it alone. Set the plunger tension at medium and leave it alone. Don't break sections off of the points. Just do what dchan is instructing. He's giving you the right advice.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

There is a place for the firm plunger/centershot dead center, but for an intermediate shooter I agree it's a waste of time. Using that process (tuning for tens) is a specific way set your nock point and to see if the arrows are close enough to be matched. 

Nothing more..

From Rick's tuning for tens manual

==============================
SECTION 2: PAPER TUNE SETUP

2A: This step will:

(i) Determine is the nock point is correct. (this is a correctable item)
(ii) Determine if the arrows are stiff or weak (this may or may not be correctable)
============================

The rest of step 2 includes shooting the bare shaft through paper. The only adjustment made for tuning are to adjust the nock height to correct for up down tears.
The horizontal tear must be less than 3" (either way). If the tear is less than 3" you may be able to make the adjustments with bow weight, or adjusting point weight etc..
If the tear is larger than 3" YOU NEED TO SELECT A DIFFERENT SPINE" *NOTE There is NO shooting of fletched shafts in this step of Rick's process.* Just the bare shaft. No joining of bare shaft to fletched.

Adjusting centershot, or plunger pressure to make the hole smaller or get a bare shaft to join the fletched ones are just masking the problem. A mismatch in spine to bow..


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

It is also possible that there is a simpler answer: If the rest is set too low, is too compliant/flexible or there is a finger pressure problem, the arrow could be getting under the button. Be sure the button contact the arrow at the middle of the shaft as viewed from behind that arrow or slightly high. 

Also, we've found that, in some of the old W&W/SF magnetic rests, the bottom of the arm sticks out into the path of the arrow (as the top part goes in towards the bow, the attached base goes out and snags the vanes). We stopped using these rests on kids' bows, especially if the shafts are too stiff, as tend to be the case with young archers, as the lightest shafts are still too stiff.


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## tbrash01 (Oct 7, 2010)

You are getting a lot of good help already but I have a few things to add. I shoot Uukha limbs and there are a few things that need to be right on. If you are getting a true stiff arrow result, and by my calculations you should be closer to a 650-670 spine using 100gr. This is what I would do with your current set up since Uukha do act differently.

1) Adjust tiller positive to no more than 1/4". Anywhere from 0-6mm (1/4")
2) Uukha limbs react better with tiller weight closer to max. (Stiff arrow needs more speed to weaken it, so this should help as well.)
3) Go to a 16 strand 8125. (16 strand is acceptable by Uukha)
4) BH needs to be lower around 9" or just below as low as 8 3/4". (This will also weaken the arrow.) 
5) Leave plunger with arrow just outside string. (Sounds like you are already there.)
6) MAKE REAL SURE YOU DON'T PLUCK THE STRING ON RELEASE AT ALL! 

If the arrow flight and spine do not come into tune and you get an arrow that reacts weaker, then do the opposite of steps 2,3,4. 
Uukha can be a little tricky but once you find the right spine and get close on tune, they fine very easily.

The vane impact is more likely caused by the spine being off, but a bad release will also be a major factor. I personally shoot slightly weak spine and on occasion get impact due to a bad release. 

Good luck!


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## jwit76 (May 23, 2015)

Been using the stiff match stick plunger method with arrow centered directly behind the string and have successfully bareshafted to 40 meters. I find this allows for great sensitivity to any poundage or nock adjustments, I can now, at 40m, move my bare shafts up, down, left, right by simply adjusting poundage and nock point. Now, once I re-install my spring and adjust center shot, I would expect my plunger tension adjustments to be much more effective, since I already did the mAjority of tuning with poundage and nock point. 

I am inexperienced as compared to most on this thread, but I can at least share what worked for me. In regards to the OP question, which I think we've strayed from a little, turning the nock slightly each time and judging results has resolved my clearance issues.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

He's not having a vane clearance issue. He's having an arrow impact clearance issue. (read: scraping the rear tape off) this means the arrow itself is impacting the plunger or riser somewhere while it passes the bow. The vanes/fletches are just sticking out further so they will be damaged as well. 

Since he is taking only the rear tape off, I can only surmise that it's while the arrow is in it's first recovery.. if he were taking off front and rear tape together I might be thinking either even more impact, or that the arrow is way too stiff and sliding all the way up the shaft and taking off front and rear tape. (we've seen this with our crestings and having a nice wear pattern all the way through the cresting)

Seeing his current specs I would say he's shooting weak spines.. He should be closer to 700 spine.

re being successful shooting bare shafts. Again the centershot straight on, and stiff plunger is not a tuning method (other than nock height). It's a diagnostic tool.


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## valloq (Feb 10, 2013)

dchan said:


> He's not having a vane clearance issue. He's having an arrow impact clearance issue. (read: scraping the rear tape off) this means the arrow itself is impacting the plunger or riser somewhere while it passes the bow. The vanes/fletches are just sticking out further so they will be damaged as well.
> 
> Since he is taking only the rear tape off, I can only surmise that it's while the arrow is in it's first recovery.. if he were taking off front and rear tape together I might be thinking either even more impact, or that the arrow is way too stiff and sliding all the way up the shaft and taking off front and rear tape. (we've seen this with our crestings and having a nice wear pattern all the way through the cresting)
> 
> ...


dchan, not to dereail this thread, but if you were seeing front tape being scraped off instead of rear, what would you assume might be the issue then?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

valloq said:


> dchan, not to dereail this thread, but if you were seeing front tape being scraped off instead of rear, what would you assume might be the issue then?


It's a good question and not really a derailment. It pertains to how I arrived at my above conclusion. My above conclusion can be totally off as there are some other factors we can't see or have not yet been provided but it's what I had to work with.

to answer your question, It would take a little more digging.. Doing a clearance test by putting lipstick on the plunger (may have to do it several times) or powder coating the whole back of the arrow including about a half of the shaft would reveal a lot.

It would show where on the shaft the contact starts happening and if it's continuous or starts at a spot further down the shaft.

If the rubbing happens along a long section of the shaft, you probably have an arrow that is not bending enough and just sliding along the plunger. where an arrow that is bending but just not timing the flex past the riser will start it's impact further back.

Short answer, "It depends"


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## valloq (Feb 10, 2013)

dchan said:


> It's a good question and not really a derailment. It pertains to how I arrived at my above conclusion. My above conclusion can be totally off as there are some other factors we can't see or have not yet been provided but it's what I had to work with.
> 
> to answer your question, It would take a little more digging.. Doing a clearance test by putting lipstick on the plunger (may have to do it several times) or powder coating the whole back of the arrow including about a half of the shaft would reveal a lot.
> 
> ...


Well, I saw it as a derailment since that's exactly what's happening with my setup =) I threw baby powder on the arrow shafts and I can see a line being left starting from about 2 inches in front of the vane. The front tape is being ripped off, and every once in a while I'll have a vane actually tear.

My initial analysis was that it was the rest leaving the trail. I should probably do the lipstick trick on the plunger to see if it's actually the plunger leaving the marks.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

GENERALLY... any time wrap tape (vane hold down tape) is getting torn off, it's something harder or firmer than a rest.. Unless you have a pretty solid rest (MOST flip out of the way to some extent) and won't tear the tape. you may wear through the tape over many shots but I rarely see a rest tear tape off. It's almost always the plunger or in extreme cases the riser itself. 

When you a clearance test by powdering the riser, very often this symptom doesn't show up on the riser at all which can be very puzzling if think you may have a clearance problem.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)




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## valloq (Feb 10, 2013)

dchan said:


> GENERALLY... any time wrap tape (vane hold down tape) is getting torn off, it's something harder or firmer than a rest.. Unless you have a pretty solid rest (MOST flip out of the way to some extent) and won't tear the tape. you may wear through the tape over many shots but I rarely see a rest tear tape off. It's almost always the plunger or in extreme cases the riser itself.
> 
> When you a clearance test by powdering the riser, very often this symptom doesn't show up on the riser at all which can be very puzzling if think you may have a clearance problem.


Thanks for the analysis. I'll have to play with some bare shafts to see what I come up with from all this information.


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## LECLEC (Jul 30, 2015)

there are some pretty smart cats that used to shoot @ the park.........
i'd get help from local pro 
a bottle of water and a snicker bar goes along way........

thing is you can only tune the wrong arrows so far. 

too many variables........

is tear consistent?

plucking string?


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## Kristjon (Feb 19, 2013)

Sorry for not responding sooner. I got a friend to measure my DL, we used a longer arrow, I took it back to where I usually anchor and he used his finger on the shaft at my plunger. It measured 25-1/4 so plus 1-3/4 equals 27 and doing the hands on wall /2.5 Im at 26.5. 
I also dropped my string down to 8-1/2 brace and it seems to make a slight difference.

I think it maybe a release issue. Yes I tried putting lipstick on it both my arrow vanes and on plunger. I'll upload pics later today. As again I broke 2 more today. 

But now I got a new problem, my (bow) shoulder is now so sore that I can't even scratch my butt with out feeling pain. Worse yet is Canadian Nationals is this coming Thursday in my home city....

One other question, I have the ability to move my plunger to a forward location. Do you think this may help in clearence? If I need to add weight I can put on AAE Wave vanes as they pbly weigh more than Gas Pro's.


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