# IBO call out



## Babyk

:darkbeer:


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## Alpha Burnt

Babyk, hard to understand what you mean by a smiley drinking pop or whatever. This is not for entertainment, it is not posted in Mutantville, General Archery Discussion or any other forums. As I was posting in the Cleveland thread, I began to think that what I was doing was not constructive and decided to place a thread in 3D Archery. I sincerely hope some issues that are widely known are expressed here in an open forum and by doing this, many will see, IBO will take notice and corrective action will be taken. I am a member of IBO, a small voice in a sea of many. I do have a vested interest in seeing it succeed and work past problems. They have shoots that could be a lot better ran, but they are the only organization that has major shoots that are in a reasonable travelling distance from my WV home. In an effort to not be rude, move along, if you are not part of the solution you are a part of the problem.


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## treeman65

There lack of listening to the shooters and out right lies. 
No known distance class


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## mocheese

I think they seriously need to look at the hunter's class scores, just those listed in the other thread you mentioned. It is obvious that the changes that were recently made are not getting enough people out of that class. Novice archers don't have a place to compete in the IBO. If someone shoots 30 some up in HC then they are clearly in the wrong class!!


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## carlosii

all they need to do is cut and paste the ASA rules and format...seems to work for those boys. plus it helps to have one guy in charge rather than a small circle of people who act on their own interests rather than the interest of archery. just mho.


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## Joseph McCluske

mocheese said:


> I think they seriously need to look at the hunter's class scores, just those listed in the other thread you mentioned. It is obvious that the changes that were recently made are not getting enough people out of that class. Novice archers don't have a place to compete in the IBO. If someone shoots 30 some up in HC then they are clearly in the wrong class!!


I don't really believe they were in the wrong class at Cleveland, the targets were that close. I didn't shoot the close ones but a buddy of mine did and he thought they only had one target beyond 25 yards and most were under 20 yards pretty much a spot shoot...


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## Gary Wiant

I'll start first by saying I'm not a fan of the Rinehart change,
1. I've heard the Rinehart's last longer and pull easier, " anyone at the indoor worlds knows the targets were very tight, hard to pull and we had lots of target leave foam on our arrows after we pulled the arrow. Granted the targets took a beating but several had to be turned around, they didn't last long. 
2. It's not 1980 all of the high quality rangefinders are very accurate. Get an " official " rangefinder, calibrate them and use them to set every stake, there is No reason for an approximate distance I know this has been beat to death but wrong is wrong.
3. The bod needs to attend some ASA shoots and look at home smooth they are ran. What is the reason IBO makes us wait 2-3 + hrs for the awards. 
4. Why wasn't there a horn or something to blow to alert people the course is closed due to bad weather? Last years world championship was pure stupidity everyone knew there was a chance of rain plans should have been made in advance in case they had to alert shooters to leave the course. Thank God it was just a thunder storm, just think if it was a tornado, everyone's cell phones were off. The shooters would not have been notified and would have just been setting ducks.
This is just a couple of the things that is wrong with the IBO in my opinion.
The IBO's arrogance and refusing to listen to their shooters is why in my opinion unless they make some changes they will be a shadow of what they have been in the past.

As for the hunter class scores, I agree there are several sand baggers in the hunter class I've shot in groups with some at past triple crown shoots, but I shot with a young guy 18 at the indoor worlds "Jon" can't remember his last name he was from Canada I believe in or near Toronto. And this is his first year in hunter class and he shot a 432 he had 1 - 8 and 34 x's. It was impressive to watch the kid was a basket case from about target 30 on very nervous and excited about how he was shooting.

I'm not taking anything away from anyone that shot the short stake. All you can do is shoot the course that is set for you and as long as it is set within the posted max yardage I don't have an issue with it. The course was set very short I think I heard someone say 17 around 10 yards the problem is at that distance you have to shoot 11's and if you hit someone else's arrow your probably going to get knocked out you just hope you get knocked into a 10 and not an 8.


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## Joseph McCluske

Thanks Vergie / IBO, I had a great time at the indoor worlds, I was in a busted group shot with two mbo guys Rich and Chuck that I did not know and another msr guy that I did know. They called the arrows fair and were good time to shoot with, they did everything by the book. I wish I would have shot better but I got their with the thought of 45 yards being the max and shooting my asa bow around 285 it cost me a few points until I turned my brain around. In the first couple targets I shot two 5's low off maybe 5 yards but that was my fault not anyone else's I'm the one that made the shot and set the sight. 
If you guys have all these problems with the IBO all the time why don't you say something at the time it is happening, I'm sure it would be corrected. Police your own ranks and you won't need to go on a forum and whine on why someone beat you. I feel that everyone else shot the same targets as I did and the best man will win beyond that I don't worry about. *Thanks IBO* for the good shoot, I had fun and was happy to see allot of young guys and girls there shooting...
Thanks Rich and Chuck, I don't remember your last names but it was a good day...


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## Gary Wiant

Say something to IBO? Been there done that, they don't care. I shoot IBO because of the proximity of their shoots to my home. I shot in a broken group also none of us knew each other and we had a great time, does that mean nothing could be improved? Absolutely not, the op asked for out thoughts on what could be changes and that is what the thread is about, if you want to blow kisses to IBO and ignore the issues that need addressed, go to their facebook page. If you want to try to help better the organization great. I have no issues with Vergie she has always been very friendly and helpful if I had any questions. If I hated IBO and wanted them to fail I'd keep my opinions to myself and hoped they go out, but I'm trying to give my opinions like the op requested.


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## trinibob

3 years in hc then you should move on mandatory IMHO


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## Alpha Burnt

Joseph McCluske said:


> Thanks Vergie / IBO, I had a great time at the indoor worlds, I was in a busted group shot with two mbo guys Rich and Chuck that I did not know and another msr guy that I did know. They called the arrows fair and were good time to shoot with, they did everything by the book. I wish I would have shot better but I got their with the thought of 45 yards being the max and shooting my asa bow around 285 it cost me a few points until I turned my brain around. In the first couple targets I shot two 5's low off maybe 5 yards but that was my fault not anyone else's I'm the one that made the shot and set the sight.
> If you guys have all these problems with the IBO all the time why don't you say something at the time it is happening, I'm sure it would be corrected. Police your own ranks and you won't need to go on a forum and whine on why someone beat you. I feel that everyone else shot the same targets as I did and the best man will win beyond that I don't worry about. *Thanks IBO* for the good shoot, I had fun and was happy to see allot of young guys and girls there shooting...
> Thanks Rich and Chuck, I don't remember your last names but it was a good day...


This post does not belong here, Virgie is not the problem-I doubt she could set a target course nowadays.


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## Alpha Burnt

Please keep this on target, pun intended. It may be one of the best things to happen to the IBO if suggestions are heeded.


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## Joseph McCluske

Alpha Burnt said:


> Please keep this on target, pun intended. It may be one of the best things to happen to the IBO if suggestions are heeded.


Sad thing is your not going to change anything or anyone on a public forum, to many haters or pot stirring. If you really want to get involved in change you need to attend board meetings talk to and email directors on the board and get their support to correct the problems or change. From my experience most of the folks who are in position on change think that most of the posts on here is nothing more than sour grapes or bs. 
When a guy comes on here and claims that he saw someone shooting a lens from the short targets he should have brought it to an IBO official right there and it would be addressed. Bottom line AT will never change IBO but the shooters can by doing it right and policing there ranks.


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## Alpha Burnt

"When a guy comes on here and claims that he saw someone shooting a lens from the short targets he should have brought it to an IBO official right there and it would be addressed"

I agree with you, but depending on how the individual appeared, he could have been shooting the youth classes. In that format it would be hard to adhere to, but, having contestants grouped within the same class paired together would bring no question as to the rule requirements. I am trying to stay away from sour grapes and have a constructive sampling of real world problems with the organization. I do not have the time or want to, in reference to voicing my opinion to the bod. If they have rules, they should make an effort first and foremost to adhere to them. Then worry about policing everyone else. There are other organizations vying for shooters money and wanting to enjoy fair competition. It has been voiced individually and sporadically here for years. I thought it would be nice to list them all here, real world experiences without fear of damnation. If IBO chooses to tune in to the members thoughts, they would be here for them. If not, one of the other organizations may learn from their failures and make a positive difference.


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## SonnyThomas

Things can't be fixed if no one addresses them at the time of happening. Official protests should be lodged and right to the top if necessary. Hey, if takes knocking someone's teeth down their throat to get attention so be it. Just make dang sure you're right. The correct thing is to keep a level head and determination. You go at it half azzed then you have only yourself to blame. 

From what I've seen and heard the IBO head honchos should have be on duty at their events and state reps well knowledged. These people are the ones that should make things happen. I just went through this at our club's meeting, our Election Meeting, when a State IBO Rep was brought in. I knew more about the IBO than he did, even had his comments corrected by those at IBO Headquarters. But it didn't stop me from wanting to join the IBO - haven't yet, but waiting on information of State Championship location - I ain't driving 5 or 6 hours to get to it.

Carlos made a statement above. He's not all entirely incorrect or correct maybe, but one thing about the ASA. Mike T, ASA owner, is everywhere at the nationals, he makes it happen. His people running registration have answers for you before you get your question fully out. If a hang up on the range people start moving quick because the range official is coming and he or she will make it happen. Person I know raged over a IBO event taking over 6 hours to shoot 30 targets. He should have been on the war path. I don't understand this at all, not when me and my friends knock off 40 targets in less than 3 hours. Somebody just plain wasn't making it happen. Same with the awards ceremony for the IBO national that was shoved off to a later date. Somebody didn't make it happen.

As the Poster noted, the IBO has a new leader. I'd suggest seeing if things don't improve or he's heading the right direction for improvements before using the axe.

As for the Rinehart targets, I don't have a problem. And the contract is signed, so a live with issue until problems occur and hopefully not. Trying to bust the contract at this point could be disastrous. Personally, I can't afford to buy a range of any brand of target and many are just like me. So I could really give a da__ about somebody crying over their personal targets not being used.

I am on the IBO Forums. I have contacts and I have email addresses. My questions were addressed and settled appropriately.


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## Bowtech n ROSS

New president is no better. First months in office he makes a shooting time change to pro and semi pro times. Probably because he doesn't want to shoot on sunday.


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## Alpha Burnt

Guys, so far so good, we have managed to keep this on track. Keep it up. I disagree with those of you that say a forum post/thread will not make a difference. This is nationwide, this is something everyone sees. On the IBO forum, it keeps it in house, not necessarily the best approach. As this grows, I will try to find a contact for Bryan J. Marcum and see that this is forwarded to him.


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## chromes-z7

lets have honest yardage. My mind was set on targets that were between 45 and 46 yards. I shot three 5's until I figured out there were targets in the 50 yard range.


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## rdraper_3

I agree, anyone shooting almost 30 up should jump up in class and give some of the others a chance. I only shot in HC for 1 year then went straight to MBR. I was going to jump up again to MBO but due to a tight budget I couldn't afford a new sight and scope. I jumped up in class because I wanted to challenge MYSELF, not sandbag,and yes I know there are sandbaggers. There's just way too many guys in HC for me.


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## Humdinger

I can only say that i'm very pleased that the IBO will start branching out to other states this year. California in particular. As for the other stuff im not up to date on what has been happening in previous years.


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## mikeg68

Having at least 2 range officials at each range tent would be nice. One to be at the tent to handle the shooters questions and complaints going onto and off the courses and the other to be constantly walking the course to make sure the shooters are following the time limit rules and to see if any of the groups out shooting need any questions answered. I myself carry a stop watch in my stool and don't hesitate to time a shooter who is taking too long and give them a gentle reminder of the time limit. If the shooter does it again, I give him a not so gentle reminder. The problem is you have to wait to get thru the course to let anyone know about it and then its too late to do anything about it. Some of the shooters I have timed have taken up to 5 minutes to shoot and their group doesn't say a word to them. Then when I say something from a few groups back who are waiting, the pretty much have the attitude of mind your own business. It would be nice to have officials out on the course to keep them on pace. Nothing I hate more than taking 2-3 hours to shoot 10 targets


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## Alpha Burnt

Some recurring themes have been made clear here so far. 

1. Hunter Class seems to be the one class that has the most problems. HC requirements seem too broad, the class is too big, there are time factors due to bottlenecks, the class seems to have the need to "graduate up". Possibly bust the class into novice, intermediate and money?

2. Yardages and range sets seem to be another factor. It has been suggested there be a universal rangefinder that IBO should employ the use of and adhere to the range limits. With the use of two or three rangefinders that are reading the same for target setting and maybe recording the yardage to post after tournament is over?

3. Time. The respect of adhering to the 2 minute time rule seems to not exist. Time is a very important factor to people in this day and age, being a fast paced society. No time limit or observe the one in place or find a new time limit?

4. Range Officials. Having readily accessible range officials to report infractions to in a timely matter that will keep things moving smoothly and timely. Will these be IBO officials intermingled with venue specific officials? In the absence of adequate officiating, the challenges should not be paid challenges?

5. Grouping. Seems to be a problem with people that are friends shooting together and not being mixed up. If there is a money class in HC, there should never be an unbusted group.

6. This could probably fall under Range Officials but equipment checks and contraband searches prior to starting a group seems it would alleviate some repeated problems.

7. Venue accountability. If the host is using IBO name to hold a tournament, IBO should call the shots and educate these venues as to what is expected. They must adhere to the rules (the setting of targets with IBO rangefinder) , provide adequate coverage (range officials), provide equal notice to all in the case of tournament suspension due to weather or safety factors. Maybe a thorough briefing mandatory for all support with detailed explanation of the rules and what is to be expected out of the venue? Monetary sanctions for venue deficiencies?


Keep on guys, I will try to summarize every so often, unless you all think I am missing the mark or messing up the continuity of our discussion.


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## rdraper_3

It's sounding good so far, now to just get them to actually DO SOMETHING about it.


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## Alpha Burnt

Hmmm. I see what you are saying, the way this is set up, looks like one person makes a suggestion, it then becomes an issue and why would they do something if one person out of four thousand does not like it. I never thought about that until now.


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## shooter74

mocheese said:


> I think they seriously need to look at the hunter's class scores, just those listed in the other thread you mentioned. It is obvious that the changes that were recently made are not getting enough people out of that class. Novice archers don't have a place to compete in the IBO. If someone shoots 30 some up in HC then they are clearly in the wrong class!!



that class is not that hard to dowith a score like that .....................


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## deer1358

My opinion on hc is this.. the course was ridiculously easy for some good shooters. I wouldn't say those who shot 25-34 up are in the wrong class. I was one of those shooters, and I can tell you when put in an IBO event like the triple crown, my scores will not touch that. I may be lucky to finish even. But what I can say to the IBO is... You really need to look at how easy the course was and mix it up a little. Even if it means adding some extra targets so hc has some max yardage shots. I think there was one shot at 30 and that was it


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## perdieu2011

I have attended indoor worlds the last 3 years and the targets have been set that way all 3 years........hc shoots the close ones and ahc is bumped out to shoot the long ones with mbr and mbo........it wasn't a surprise to me that hc scores were up and ahc scores were down.....happens every year due to lack of space for 3 or 4 separate ranges..........I don't c why everyone is so upset about it? I thought the IBO put on a good shoot.....great practice for the triple crown! Great job IBO and everyone that attended! Great shooting by the VENDETTA guys!


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## Alpha Burnt

perdieu2011 said:


> I have attended indoor worlds the last 3 years and the targets have been set that way all 3 years........hc shoots the close ones and ahc is bumped out to shoot the long ones with mbr and mbo........it wasn't a surprise to me that hc scores were up and ahc scores were down.....happens every year due to lack of space for 3 or 4 separate ranges..........I don't c why everyone is so upset about it? I thought the IBO put on a good shoot.....great practice for the triple crown! Great job IBO and everyone that attended! Great shooting by the VENDETTA guys!


This thread is not just about Cleveland, its about IBO and what they can do to make things more level or fair for all participants.


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## reylamb

IBO needs to take charge of the shoots with their names on them. Let's face it, the host clubs run the shoots, IBO just puts their name on it. While I realize the host club needs to be able to provide some of the manpower, space, etc, the IBO officials need to be running the show.


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## SonnyThomas

This bow novice thing. I shoot at several clubs throughout the year, all mostly club rules. Only one club has a bow novice stake and usually used for anyone who wants to short range shoot. Basically there are no bow novice classes. Yes, so by and large the IBO and ASA have people in the bow novice classes that shoot max yardage at every club they shoot at - 45 and 50 yards is common place. Personally, the short yardage should be removed for bow novice. You then could run those in bow novice in with the longer yardage classes and actually free up one range or do away with one range. And of course gives better leeway in busting groups.

Of course, any bow novice that shoots well up should be moved up, depending upon the rules. If a limit amount in place, then the limit applies. If this is unacceptable then a rule modification is in order. All rules must flow throughout, no differentiating between state and national level.


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## Alpha Burnt

reylamb said:


> IBO needs to take charge of the shoots with their names on them. Let's face it, the host clubs run the shoots, IBO just puts their name on it. While I realize the host club needs to be able to provide some of the manpower, space, etc, the IBO officials need to be running the show.



I agree wholeheartedly, they are pimping out the name (based on what I am hearing) and leaving it up to the individual venues to run and oftentimes they are giving the IBO a black eye. In the process, they are making huge profits and leaving the IBO with some money. In essence, the IBO is being *****d out. I am going to cut from the presidents (Marcum) letter their goals and post them here in another post. They are lofty goals, goals that every bowhunter would love for them to be successful in. Individual venues need to quit absorbing so much money and running shoots shoddily. As I understand it, often the gripes we have are deficiencies of these venues to hold up their end of the bargain. Maybe someone in the know can take a recent shoot from the past couple of years and post what percentages of monies the IBO actually keeps in a major leg of the Triple Crown.


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## Alpha Burnt

Quoting paragraph 3 in the "Message of the President", taken from the 2013 IBO Yearbook:

The IBO was founded by a dedicated group of bowhunters who saw a need to bring other bowhunters together to PROMOTE, ENCOURAGE and FOSTER the sport of bowhunting. We hold a series of tournaments as a means of accomplishing this goal. We bring archers together in a tournament setting to challenge their skills, create camaraderie and RAISE MONEY FOR OUR CAUSE. We are a NON-PROFIT organization with the lowest administrative costs of any non-profit I'm aware of. This means the majority of the money we receive from sponsors and tournament fees goes directly to the shooters, TO BOWHUNTER DEFENSE, and to cover tournament expenses.

continuing with paragraph 4:

My goal as president is to not only operate a series of 3D tournaments that are SECOND TO NONE, but to GENERATE MORE INCOME TO ACCOMPLISH OUR ULTIMATE GOAL: to ensure our children and grandchildren have more bowhunting opportunities than our parents and grandparents did. We are FIRST and FOREMOST A BOWHUNTING ORGANIZATION, and I will work to raise revenue so the majority of money we take in goes to the defense of bowhunting. We can accomplish this by increasing our membership, expanding our tournaments BY LOCATION AND ATTENDANCE, and by UNITING ALL BOWHUNTERS for a COMMON GOAL. Whether professional or amateur, modern or traditional, we all must speak with one voice in support of our bowhunting heritage.

This was written by the current IBO president, Bryan J. Marcum. Marcum is a 25 year veteran IBO tournament participant, with the last 18 years as a shooter in the Pro Male Fingers (PMF) class. Paragraph 6 is dealing with integrity and when I get more time, I will post it up as well. I believe we have the new breath of life in the IBO to make some positive changes that can impact our generation as well as others. We must act quick, new tournaments are beginning soon.


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## Alpha Burnt

Maybe someone in the know can take a recent shoot from the past couple of years and post what percentages of monies the IBO actually keeps in a major leg of the Triple Crown versus what the venue/sponsor/host keeps?
I believe this should prove interesting, if anyone can divulge this information...


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## Alpha Burnt

Oh, what the heck, I am going to keep writing...

Quoting paragraph 6 in the "Message of the President", taken from the 2013 IBO Yearbook, author cited above in post #33:

I expect our members and tournament participants to be men and women of integrity, and to always do the right thing, even when no one is watching. When you let down more than three times, when your arrow falls from your string and can't be reached from the stake, when your arrow is oh-so-close but not touching the line or when the buck of a lifetime is standing in front of you and you have already filled your tag, it is times like these that require men and women of integrity to make the right decisions.

Folks, unless I am missing something, this Bryan Marcum is our key to changing IBO, righting wrongs and getting the organization on the right track. The next month or two should let us develop our understanding to whether he can be a man who "walks the walk", he has demonstrated that he can "talk the talk". Please keep your postings relevant and pertinent and possibly we can have a small hand in helping him turn this train around.


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## Alpha Burnt

Re: HC and the high scores, our goal as bowhunters should be to be efficient enough to make the best shot we can as many times as we can. High scores are indicative of a good shot, good yardage judging, good execution and a really good day! I believe when we start to see people "cleaning" a 30 or 40 target course, we need to start wondering IF the course set is too easy or the individual shooter is shooting down a class or two than what he should be, commonly known as "sandbagging". Thinking out loud, should the International Bowhunting Organization even have a class where contestants are using moveable pins, lenses, 30" stabilizers and so on. The organization might consider stepping back and letting ASA or the Regions, take the shooters using that equipment. Should IBO not promote bowhunting equipment as in HC. I know that, I personally, do not have the cash to afford to purchase the nicer equipment and move up into the other classes. Could we not have different stages within the Hunter Class and Advanced Hunter Class, in which your ability could be factored in? DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I am not looking to get rid of all of these classes, but, should a person that likes to compete with bowhunting equipment, using actual bowhunting equipment be forced to buy large diameter shafts, lenses, longer stabilizers to go up in classes. I would assume that IF they still want to be competitive within those classes they would. Would the pros still shoot if they were stuck with using bowhunter type equipment? Just thinking out loud here. Seems that if everyone was using bowhunting style equipment, the cream would rise to the top. Camaraderie, I would love to see big Tim, Chance, and the other big name pro's shooting with me or in another group where we were all on the same playing field. It would clear up the ambiguous equipment questions and violations if everyone knew exactly what they were and were not supposed to have. I know there is a rule book, I believe a whole lot of times one gets the bug to shoot and knows they are not going to be competitive so they do not even read the rule books and go just to have fun. AGAIN, I am just thinking out loud, looking for suggestions...


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## Alpha Burnt

8. Sandbagging. A shooter of greater ability or high finishes in his respective class for a few years, that continues to shoot within the same class and not moving on to higher classes. Predominately seen in the Hunter Class (HC). There are rules in place now to combat this practice somewhat...

Section 5, C, 1 paragraph 2

"Any archer winning any two of the following events, Winter National, Spring National, or the 1st, 2nd or 3rd leg of the National Triple Crown or the World Championship in addition to any archer ranking in the top 10 combined scores for the National Championship, or the top 5 scores for the World Championship including all ties must advance to another class at the conclusion of the current competition year. This will be a permanent move out of HC."


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## treeman65

Alpha Burnt said:


> Maybe someone in the know can take a recent shoot from the past couple of years and post what percentages of monies the IBO actually keeps in a major leg of the Triple Crown versus what the venue/sponsor/host keeps?
> I believe this should prove interesting, if anyone can divulge this information...


one better it would be nice to see where this money was spent from the bowhunter defense fund like what organizations or legislation the money has helped with.


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## carlosii

ASA has a crew of experienced "pro" staff who know what to do and when to do it at a major shoot. they travel to each of the pro ams and are in charge of all phases of the shoot. compare that to IBO that has to depend on local people to staff their shoots and while those people might have the best of intentions, the operation of their shoots suffer from inconsistent rule enforcement, policies, and procedures.


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## Alpha Burnt

carlosii said:


> ASA has a crew of experienced "pro" staff who know what to do and when to do it at a major shoot. they travel to each of the pro ams and are in charge of all phases of the shoot. compare that to IBO that has to depend on local people to staff their shoots and while those people might have the best of intentions, the operation of their shoots suffer from inconsistent rule enforcement, policies, and procedures.


I challenge you to offer a solution for IBO, in this matter. Is it education? On part of IBO, prepping these locals?


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## wpk

Why do people constantly complain about the scores in HC this a class Defined by your equipment not your ability if you shoot that equipment you can shoot that class get over it
If you want to win practice more


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## SonnyThomas

carlosii said:


> ASA has a crew of experienced "pro" staff who know what to do and when to do it at a major shoot. they travel to each of the pro ams and are in charge of all phases of the shoot. compare that to IBO that has to depend on local people to staff their shoots and while those people might have the best of intentions, the operation of their shoots suffer from inconsistent rule enforcement, policies, and procedures.





Alpha Burnt said:


> I challenge you to offer a solution for IBO, in this matter. Is it education? On part of IBO, prepping these locals?


Consistency is the key and only educating those officiating is the thing to do. Who educates? IBO. If IBO has their name attached, like the nationals, IBO should be there. First up at any national, officiating officials have meeting as in; "We are all "going in this direction." What to look for, etc."

We know there will always be issues, but the more consistency is used the less issues arise.

Of course, complainers seem to yell the loudest. So 98 quiet shooters didn't have problem and 2 shooters screaming their guts out. I would look at the complaint for infractions and go from there.


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## SonnyThomas

Hunter Class.... Seems the Hunter class has been wrecked by both the NFAA and ASA. How to correct it is pretty simple, but then the complainers come forth. Hunter Class should be hunter class, not some hopped up, short of being a Open or Freestyle bow. Same for arrows for hunter class, hunting arrows, not logs and glue-in points.


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## xringbob

Hunter class is a tough and stack shooting class. There is a move out rule for that class. If you can't keep up with the good shooters in that class till they have to move out maybe you should practice more so you can. The people that complain and b*tch about the scores are the ones that can't shoot a even score. It's not a paying class so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Quit your crying and get out there and practice sorry your best isn't as good as the next guys best.


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## nochance

Alpha Burnt said:


> 8. Sandbagging. A shooter of greater ability or high finishes in his respective class for a few years, that continues to shoot within the same class and not moving on to higher classes. Predominately seen in the Hunter Class (HC). There are rules in place now to combat this practice somewhat...
> 
> Section 5, C, 1 paragraph 2
> 
> "Any archer winning any two of the following events, Winter National, Spring National, or the 1st, 2nd or 3rd leg of the National Triple Crown or the World Championship in addition to any archer ranking in the top 10 combined scores for the National Championship, or the top 5 scores for the World Championship including all ties must advance to another class at the conclusion of the current competition year. This will be a permanent move out of HC."


These rules have been in place for 2-3 years now? How low you wanna go? If I'm a true beginner and I shoot 5 down then anyone above me is sandbagger and should not be in the class.? and by the way the indoors world scores do not effect anyone moving up. Maybe they should. I think there is too much emphasis that some true novice should win. Of course by the definition above may be Levi should move up a a class  I wouldn't mind a true novice class just so I wouldn't have to read this every year.


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## nochance

SonnyThomas said:


> Hunter Class.... Seems the Hunter class has been wrecked by both the NFAA and ASA. How to correct it is pretty simple, but then the complainers come forth. Hunter Class should be hunter class, not some hopped up, short of being a Open or Freestyle bow. Same for arrows for hunter class, hunting arrows, not logs and glue-in points.


I think logs are allowed but not glue in points. Must be screw in


----------



## wpk

SonnyThomas said:


> Hunter Class.... Seems the Hunter class has been wrecked by both the NFAA and ASA. How to correct it is pretty simple, but then the complainers come forth. Hunter Class should be hunter class, not some hopped up, short of being a Open or Freestyle bow. Same for arrows for hunter class, hunting arrows, not logs and glue-in points.


I know of people that hunt with gold tip 22's


----------



## Alpha Burnt

nochance said:


> These rules have been in place for 2-3 years now? How low you wanna go? If I'm a true beginner and I shoot 5 down then anyone above me is sandbagger and should not be in the class.? and by the way the indoors world scores do not effect anyone moving up. Maybe they should. I think there is too much emphasis that some true novice should win. Of course by the definition above may be Levi should move up a a class  I wouldn't mind a true novice class just so I wouldn't have to read this every year.


Whoa there nochance, I am just summarizing complaints and trying to log possible fixes. I shoot hunter class and have since I started two years ago. My second year was much worse than my first! I will continue to shoot HC, just more realistic practice for me. I use a rangefinder in the woods though and often hunt out of a stand. I am competitive, just not good enough to place in the top 1/3 most of the time.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> I know of people that hunt with gold tip 22's


I can see a cutoff at 23 series diameter being reasonable, but you are currently allowed 27 diameter in HC. HC and AHC are screw in field points and inserts only. I have not looked to see if MBO, or others are though?


----------



## rdraper_3

HC and AHC are the only classes that require screw in inserts and field points. The other classes allow glue in points


----------



## wpk

Who cares what size arrow you use, you can limit it ACE size arrows and the best shooter is still going on win


----------



## perdieu2011

Alpha Burnt said:


> This thread is not just about Cleveland, its about IBO and what they can do to make things more level or fair for all participants.


i know its not just about cleveland......i was replying to all the replies about cleveland! THANK YOU :wink:


----------



## Alpha Burnt

perdieu2011 said:


> i know its not just about cleveland......i was replying to all the replies about cleveland! THANK YOU :wink:


You're welcome


----------



## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> Who cares what size arrow you use, you can limit it ACE size arrows and the best shooter is still going on win



I have heard the argument before, so, why not do away with the big arrows?


----------



## perdieu2011

wpk said:


> Why do people constantly complain about the scores in HC this a class Defined by your equipment not your ability if you shoot that equipment you can shoot that class get over it
> If you want to win practice more


Right on!!!


----------



## perdieu2011

I personally don't shoot big arrows but whats wrong with shooting them in HC? Its part of the rules.....if you want to shoot them you can....its your choice on what arrow you want to shoot....and if you want to complain about it i know where you can buy some "logs" to make it more fair for you!! Your not gonna make everyone happy no matter what you do!


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## carlosii

Alpha Burnt said:


> I challenge you to offer a solution for IBO, in this matter. Is it education? On part of IBO, prepping these locals?


as i pointed out, ASA has a traveling crew that works every pro am. there are no "locals" involved in the setup or execution of the pro ams. seems to work pretty well for them. 

i don't know how the new Region group will be conducting their shoots, but i would recommend they follow the ASA model as well.


----------



## wpk

Alpha Burnt said:


> I have heard the argument before, so, why not do away with the big arrows?


What would be the point


----------



## J Whittington

:happy1::beer::cocktail:


Babyk said:


> :darkbeer:


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Closer to reality is my thinking?


----------



## Alpha Burnt

J Whittington said:


> :happy1::beer::cocktail:


Starting to go south one day into it, ain't it


----------



## wpk

Alpha Burnt said:


> Closer to reality is my thinking?


Reality to what hunting ?
This is NOT hunting ,this is competitive archery 
This thread is pointless if you don't like the rules or whatever it is you don't like about the IBO go shoot somewhere else .


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Some recurring themes have been made clear here so far.

1. Hunter Class seems to be the one class that has the most problems. HC requirements seem too broad, the class is too big, there are time factors due to bottlenecks, the class seems to have the need to "graduate up". Possibly bust the class into novice, intermediate and money?

2. Yardages and range sets seem to be another factor. It has been suggested there be a universal rangefinder that IBO should employ the use of and adhere to the range limits. With the use of two or three rangefinders that are reading the same for target setting and maybe recording the yardage to post after tournament is over?

3. Time. The respect of adhering to the 2 minute time rule seems to not exist. Time is a very important factor to people in this day and age, being a fast paced society. No time limit or observe the one in place or find a new time limit?

4. Range Officials. Having readily accessible range officials to report infractions to in a timely matter that will keep things moving smoothly and timely. Will these be IBO officials intermingled with venue specific officials? In the absence of adequate officiating, the challenges should not be paid challenges?

5. Grouping. Seems to be a problem with people that are friends shooting together and not being mixed up. If there is a money class in HC, there should never be an unbusted group.

6. This could probably fall under Range Officials but equipment checks and contraband searches prior to starting a group seems it would alleviate some repeated problems.

7. Venue accountability. If the host is using IBO name to hold a tournament, IBO should call the shots and educate these venues as to what is expected. They must adhere to the rules (the setting of targets with IBO rangefinder) , provide adequate coverage (range officials), provide equal notice to all in the case of tournament suspension due to weather or safety factors. Maybe a thorough briefing mandatory for all support with detailed explanation of the rules and what is to be expected out of the venue? Monetary sanctions for venue deficiencies?


----------



## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> Reality to what hunting ?
> This is NOT hunting ,this is competitive archery
> This thread is pointless if you don't like the rules or whatever it is you don't like about the IBO go shoot somewhere else .


No, this is a bowhunting organization, do you have a complaint with the IBO? If not and you like the way things are going, please, go to another forum to create arguments...


----------



## Slippy Field

Alpha Burnt said:


> Babyk, hard to understand what you mean by a smiley drinking pop or whatever. .....


I think its a beer not a pop and it sounds like you need one, or 8.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

perdieu2011 said:


> i know its not just about cleveland......i was replying to all the replies about cleveland! THANK YOU :wink:


I will drop the talk about what size arrows are being shot in HC, like I asked your compadre, IF you can add something of value to our discussion on here, by all means speak up. If you are only going to side track, please, go read another thread...


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Slippy Field said:


> I think its a beer not a pop and it sounds like you need one, or 8.


Yet another coming in to ruin a discussion, great move guys!


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Alpha Burnt said:


> 8. Sandbagging. A shooter of greater ability or high finishes in his respective class for a few years, that continues to shoot within the same class and not moving on to higher classes. Predominately seen in the Hunter Class (HC). There are rules in place now to combat this practice somewhat...
> 
> Section 5, C, 1 paragraph 2
> 
> "Any archer winning any two of the following events, Winter National, Spring National, or the 1st, 2nd or 3rd leg of the National Triple Crown or the World Championship in addition to any archer ranking in the top 10 combined scores for the National Championship, or the top 5 scores for the World Championship including all ties must advance to another class at the conclusion of the current competition year. This will be a permanent move out of HC."



and point 8 to summarize...


----------



## wpk

I think there are lots of things they could change.
They could care less what you or I say about it 
All of this has been said for years there is a thread that starts up like this every year and it goes nowhere.
As long as people keep going its not going to change.


----------



## SonnyThomas

wpk said:


> I think there are lots of things they could change.
> They could care less what you or I say about it
> All of this has been said for years there is a thread that starts up like this every year and it goes nowhere.
> As long as people keep going its not going to change.


You pound it until you drop and then you know you gave it your best.


----------



## perdieu2011

Alpha Burnt said:


> I will drop the talk about what size arrows are being shot in HC, like I asked your compadre, IF you can add something of value to our discussion on here, by all means speak up. If you are only going to side track, please, go read another thread...


Ya be a smart A.. that will help the thread out!! bunch of cry babies!! :moon::moon::moon::moon:


----------



## xringbob

wpk said:


> Reality to what hunting ?
> This is NOT hunting ,this is competitive archery
> This thread is pointless if you don't like the rules or whatever it is you don't like about the IBO go shoot somewhere else .


I second that your there to compete not to show your hunting skills.


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## J Whittington

Need more snacks and beverages please!


----------



## Supermag1

Alpha Burnt said:


> I can see a cutoff at 23 series diameter being reasonable, but you are currently allowed 27 diameter in HC. HC and AHC are screw in field points and inserts only. I have not looked to see if MBO, or others are though?


I hunt with my X-Ringers and know a number of guys that still hunt with Easton aluminums like the 2413.


----------



## Supermag1

carlosii said:


> as i pointed out, ASA has a traveling crew that works every pro am. there are no "locals" involved in the setup or execution of the pro ams. seems to work pretty well for them.
> 
> i don't know how the new Region group will be conducting their shoots, but i would recommend they follow the ASA model as well.


That goes back to the real purpose of the organizations. ASA's purpose as a private company is to make money for it's owner(s). IBOs purpose has been and hopefully always will be to defend bowhunting worldwide and they use these shoots as a means to raise money for that cause. So that goes to the question, would you rather that they spend a bunch of money on hiring a crew to travel around to all the shoots or that they put the money into defending our rights?


----------



## salmon killer

The Ibo has changed a lot since 1987 when I joined there organization.Then it was bowhunters shooting there bows to be better at killing animals through practice.It is target archery now and just set the shoot up that way and be done with it.The Ibo could take some lessons fro the ASA .


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## Alpha Burnt

perdieu2011 said:


> Ya be a smart A.. that will help the thread out!! bunch of cry babies!! :moon::moon::moon::moon:


You represent Athens, Vendetta and Black Eagle well...I am sure they are pleased with your actions. You think you are a great ambassador for the sport and things will never change with people like you around. Good job.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

J Whittington said:


> Need more snacks and beverages please!



Move along, just a few keyboard cowboys that want to disrupt and sidetrack the real issue...
They come on here in their anonymousity, stir things and then you and others watch it for kicks. This really could be a good discussion if people would not sidetrack. Things may change for the better in my opinion, things may not change at all. At least, we can say we discussed it like adults of average intelligence...


----------



## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> I think there are lots of things they could change.
> They could care less what you or I say about it
> All of this has been said for years there is a thread that starts up like this every year and it goes nowhere.
> As long as people keep going its not going to change.



There is one difference this year, we have a new president, we have board of directors that are quitting- there is some turmoil going on. If you can make reasonable suggestions, they may be heeded?


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## Alpha Burnt

BTW, Congratulations Mr. Perdieu on your first place in AHC...
http://www.ibo.net/results.php?e=170&c=1


----------



## Alpha Burnt

perdieu2011 said:


> Ya be a smart A.. that will help the thread out!! bunch of cry babies!! :moon::moon::moon::moon:


Maybe that belt buckle you get will help you hold them britches up?


----------



## wpk

Alpha Burnt said:


> There is one difference this year, we have a new president, we have board of directors that are quitting- there is some turmoil going on. If you can make reasonable suggestions, they may be heeded?


Nope they wont,talked to him at the ATA show real nice guy. 
Why do you guys want to change the IBO anyways?
If you don't like the rules, or there decisions they make don't shoot .
It's that easy crying about it here is not going to do anything.
See you all in Alabama


----------



## Thermodude

I had a question for the new pres as well, shot him an email yesterday and he got back with me last night, seems like a solid guy.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> Nope they wont,talked to him at the ATA show real nice guy.
> Why do you guys want to change the IBO anyways?
> If you don't like the rules, or there decisions they make don't shoot .
> It's that easy crying about it here is not going to do anything.
> See you all in Alabama



No crying here. As you can see we have 7 or 8 legitimate points, most of them are not changes as much as they are tightening up the rules that are in place, just enforcing them equally and consistently. I have not said I am not going to shoot, I would just like to see things turn around. It would be better for everyone.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Thermodude said:


> I had a question for the new pres as well, shot him an email yesterday and he got back with me last night, seems like a solid guy.


That is the impression I get as well, which makes me think NOW is the time to have this discussion.


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## klshooter

I got a question why are IBO paybacks so low? ASA has open a b and c compare it to the IBO mbo class pay backs at ASAs pay back twice what IBO does in mbo($270a win at bedford),open a($589at gainsville) and b($490at gainsville) and a little more than IBO in c($319at gainsville) I thought this was a non profit org why do they take so much more than asa when asa is a profit org that pay all their help just wondering


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## klshooter

and by the way MBO has more shooters than open a b or c


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## wpk

If your doing it for the money your in the wrong sport.
If the ASA has better pay outs witch they do shoot ASA.
I have shot them both ,and I like and dislike things about them both.
The reason most of us do this is to compete against the best in our class and the satisfaction you get from doing well.


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## klshooter

Im sorry but I dont shoot just for the money but when you travel a long way and you shoot well it would be nice to atleast make your money back I guess 95% of the shooters would still show up if they just got plack or a trophy I was just pointing out the huge pay back differance wondering why but I guess I shoot these shoots for the wrong reason


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## Alpha Burnt

klshooter said:


> Im sorry but I dont shoot just for the money but when you travel a long way and you shoot well it would be nice to atleast make your money back I guess 95% of the shooters would still show up if they just got plack or a trophy I was just pointing out the huge pay back differance wondering why but I guess I shoot these shoots for the wrong reason



I admit it would be really nice to break even on a win in a shoot of a national caliber. But the problem is, when money is increased, without IBO policing the rules they already have in affect you may introduce more problems. I mean, if there is this much back-biting and backlash asking them to enforce rules they have in place already, seems people that are willing to do whatever and however it takes to win a belt buckle- what are they going to do when you increase the prize money? As I quoted earlier, Bryan Marcum, speaks of integrity and I see nothing from him to suggest otherwise BUT there really are problems with the status quo IBO. Many instances have been discussed here already.


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## klshooter

The best thing they could do is organize the whole shoot have shotgun starts or run it the way they run worlds with tee times and alot of the problems would go away its hard to police your self when your shooting with your buddys I agree alot of rules are in place just need enforcing


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## Droptine

The ibo has made so many changes esp. for the hunter class. Added all the classes and people still cry. They cant have a class for everyone so they can win. Read the rules and follow them and practice. Alot of cryin over the targets being set over a little it says approximate so be prepared for that. Also im no ibo fan i wont be attending anymore because of the friday shoot times and target change. That sucks for me because i cant miss that much work and i have 27 mckenzie targets. So i will not contact them i will attend asa, regions or just shoot local!


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## Grnmtn

I would reccommend calling the IBO... get Rudy's contact info, he is the State Rep guy. Submit your resume and application and join the ranks of the state reps. Then work on trying to make your voice heard thru the back channels rather then out here where getting baited by the professional IBO haters... I know it is hard to ignor them but walk away from them and compile a list of things you see from the simi inside and try and move them along the train. Change can be slow but keep working at it. Second as a rep you have your id and rule book with you you become an in the field official. At the national shoots you are asked to volenteer some time if you can helping in a number of different ways from working a table or helping with future bow hunter shoot. You need to start from within to help make change.


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## wpk

Grnmtn said:


> I would reccommend calling the IBO... get Rudy's contact info, he is the State Rep guy. Submit your resume and application and join the ranks of the state reps. Then work on trying to make your voice heard thru the back channels rather then out here where getting baited by the professional IBO haters... I know it is hard to ignor them but walk away from them and compile a list of things you see from the simi inside and try and move them along the train. Change can be slow but keep working at it. Second as a rep you have your id and rule book with you you become an in the field official. At the national shoots you are asked to volenteer some time if you can helping in a number of different ways from working a table or helping with future bow hunter shoot. You need to start from within to help make change.


Now there's a good suggestion&#55357;&#56397;


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## Dartonman

Might want to ask for someone other than Rudy. If you're talking about Rudy A. I think he's now a regional rep for ASA.... he'll probably be seeing more IBO shooters this year than the IBO hosts:wink:


----------



## perdieu2011

Alpha Burnt said:


> You represent Athens, Vendetta and Black Eagle well...I am sure they are pleased with your actions. You think you are a great ambassador for the sport and things will never change with people like you around. Good job.


Yep and I do everything I can to represent and promote their product! I bet they are pleased with my actions........I don't see anything wrong..........what is a keyboard cowboy? I've always wanted to b a cowboy!


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## Alpha Burnt

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=keyboard cowboy


You do not want to be this kind of cowboy, at least, I do not think you do?


----------



## perdieu2011

perdieu2011 said:


> Yep and I do everything I can to represent and promote their product! I bet they are pleased with my actions........I don't see anything wrong..........what is a keyboard cowboy? I've always wanted to b a cowboy!





Alpha Burnt said:


> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=keyboard cowboy
> 
> 
> You do not want to be this kind of cowboy, at least, I do not think you do?


lol nice!:wink:


----------



## perdieu2011

Sorry if u thought I was trying to get ur thread off topic.........that was not my intentions.........was just trying to make a serious comment on what others posted.....it's all good!


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## Alpha Burnt

It is OUR thread. People that would benefit from consistency and enforcement of the rules that are already in place by the IBO. This organization does not need to go down the crapper, things could be better and attendance could be better IF we/they can shake the enigma.


----------



## ScottyE

IBO is behind the times when it comes to knowing what shooters want.


----------



## Supermag1

klshooter said:


> I got a question why are IBO paybacks so low? ASA has open a b and c compare it to the IBO mbo class pay backs at ASAs pay back twice what IBO does in mbo($270a win at bedford),open a($589at gainsville) and b($490at gainsville) and a little more than IBO in c($319at gainsville) I thought this was a non profit org why do they take so much more than asa when asa is a profit org that pay all their help just wondering


Most people don't realize that the IBO was never founded to be a 3D archery organization, there mission is to defend bowhunters rights and promote bowhunting worldwide. They only got into the 3D thing to increase awareness of bowhunting and to raise money to further the organizations mission of protecting and promoting bowhunting. They were the first ones to do these national level 3D tournaments and when others saw that there was money to be made doing it, they jumped in.


----------



## nochance

what does asa do to protect bowhunting rights? Not pointing the finger. I am not familiar with what they do other than the 3d shoots and was just curious. If they had ashoot in the NE i'd give it a try.


----------



## SonnyThomas

ScottyE said:


> IBO is behind the times when it comes to knowing what shooters want.


Not really. Figure the ASA has only person who rules and what he says goes. The other organizations have a process to go through, slower and then not always to the liking of some archers. Me, I disliked the NFAA permitting long fixed sights and back stabs in bowhunter freestyle and not all classes of shooting is allowed at all events. Kids shooting fixed sights against kids with full freestyle bows. ASA has "you will move up" regardless of your desire or limitations, whatever your limitations might be. And the ASA allows states to use different rules and state imposed rules that differentiate from both state rules and national rules.
So 6 of this and half dozen of that.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

nochance said:


> what does asa do to protect bowhunting rights? Not pointing the finger. I am not familiar with what they do other than the 3d shoots and was just curious. If they had ashoot in the NE i'd give it a try.


This is why I would like to see the IBO succeed, the ASA is in it for the money. The IBO is supposed to be fostering bowhunting and bowhunting defense, though, I wonder what they really contribute? It is like watching commercials on TV, you are watching ad after ad wanting to sell you a product THEN you see the commercial of a malnourished kid and they say "for just pennies a day...". I would be more apt to spend my expendible income on the thing I think is helping BUT how do we really know if its helping or are we buying the warm and fuzzy feeling?


----------



## unks24

Just wanted to say that I had the opportunity to meet and talk to Bryan Marcum last year in PA. he is a great down to earth guy who actually listens and is not afraid to give his input. He is the perfect person to fill the shoes of President of the IBO. The IBO is a great organization and they do offer a lot to us that enjoy shooting. Too bad all of the targets are not exactly where the book says, shoot them for the yardage they are set at plus or minus 5 yards is not a big deal do you drive the speed limit all of the time??? No is it a big deal to you?? Probably not. So a horn didn't blow for a thunderstorm?? Would you stand out in a thunderstorm at home?? I am sure if you left the course and went back to the tent they would have worked it out. Why would we need someone to tell us when it is or is not ok to take cover. Some guys ***** because like to ***** the others here love to shoot and we adapt to have fun. If winning a class means that much that several sub-catagories are needed then shoot your local shoots where you can win. I don't win my class but I push myself to get better. The IBO has made me a better hunter and that is what it is all about and to be honest I have enjoyed every bit of it along the way. Let's all stop being haters life is way too short to be unhappy. I hope to see all of you guys and to shoot with you and have a great time as I always do even when you do finish 20 to 30 points up on me. Bottom line is it's a great time and a lot of great people.


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## Alpha Burnt

unks24 said:


> Just wanted to say that I had the opportunity to meet and talk to Bryan Marcum last year in PA. he is a great down to earth guy who actually listens and is not afraid to give his input. He is the perfect person to fill the shoes of President of the IBO. The IBO is a great organization and they do offer a lot to us that enjoy shooting. Too bad all of the targets are not exactly where the book says, shoot them for the yardage they are set at plus or minus 5 yards is not a big deal do you drive the speed limit all of the time??? No is it a big deal to you?? Probably not. So a horn didn't blow for a thunderstorm?? Would you stand out in a thunderstorm at home?? I am sure if you left the course and went back to the tent they would have worked it out. Why would we need someone to tell us when it is or is not ok to take cover. Some guys ***** because like to ***** the others here love to shoot and we adapt to have fun. If winning a class means that much that several sub-catagories are needed then shoot your local shoots where you can win. I don't win my class but I push myself to get better. The IBO has made me a better hunter and that is what it is all about and to be honest I have enjoyed every bit of it along the way. Let's all stop being haters life is way too short to be unhappy. I hope to see all of you guys and to shoot with you and have a great time as I always do even when you do finish 20 to 30 points up on me. Bottom line is it's a great time and a lot of great people.


You bring up some valid points, sure everyone wants to have fun. There is also the issue of fairness and a competition factor to think about also. No one likes inconsistencies in applying rules, it has the "broken window" effect . It is a competition, the IBO set the rules, therefore they should follow them in the spirit of consistency and fairness. Just to take your example of a target being set at 45 yards and say your class max is 40 with a variance for rangefinder inconsistency (2 yards is a stretch). You judge the target, your mind says that is further than 40, but you rely on the IBO following their own rules and shoot it for 41. Depending on the speed of your bow, you may get lucky to catch a 10 if you were holding in the center of the 11 ring and your shot was executed perfectly. Can you see the frustration that not following the rules by the officials of the shoot can cause? This is just one example. 
In the example of the failure to warn in the storm, you are grouped with your peers in your class and everyone is staying and shooting in the inclimate weather. No one hears the horn, you assume it should have sounded in weather this severe. This is not an equipment failure and there is no one around to ask, you want to walk off but your group does not. The horn has not sounded. You leave and there is no suspension in shooting officially, what is going to happen to your score?
You may call this *****ing, but to me, these are valid complaints that need sorted out. These are a few examples. Everyone goes to have fun, yes. In the event you are shooting extremely well and get beat by someone that did not follow the rules, you are not going to be having too much fun. You will be angry.


----------



## xringbob

A few years ago at Ibo worlds there was a turkey out about 37/38yrds in HC at is 35yrd max nobody complained everybody judged it and shot it for what it was. Don't blame the Ibo cause you can't judge pass your class max. As for last worlds with the stormanybody in there right mind wouldn't of stayed out there like somebody posted you wouldn't stay out in a thunder storm at home why would you there. At the first crack I started walking off and my group followed. Common sense not to be in harms way.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

xringbob said:


> A few years ago at Ibo worlds there was a turkey out about 37/38yrds in HC at is 35yrd max nobody complained everybody judged it and shot it for what it was. Don't blame the Ibo cause you can't judge pass your class max. As for last worlds with the stormanybody in there right mind wouldn't of stayed out there like somebody posted you wouldn't stay out in a thunder storm at home why would you there. At the first crack I started walking off and my group followed. Common sense not to be in harms way.


just because that happened to us, does not mean it is alright for them to continue to do, does it?


----------



## A.j.

The sanctioning body needs to adhere to the rules that it establishes just like it expects the participants to. There can not be a double standard. Period.


----------



## Supermag1

Alpha Burnt said:


> This is why I would like to see the IBO succeed, the ASA is in it for the money. The IBO is supposed to be fostering bowhunting and bowhunting defense, though, I wonder what they really contribute? It is like watching commercials on TV, you are watching ad after ad wanting to sell you a product THEN you see the commercial of a malnourished kid and they say "for just pennies a day...". I would be more apt to spend my expendible income on the thing I think is helping BUT how do we really know if its helping or are we buying the warm and fuzzy feeling?


I belive that there is a section in each issue of one of the bowhunting magazines (Bowhunting World, I believe) that gives monthly updates of what they're doing. I know that they work closely with the ATA on some things and the increase in the number of urban bowhunting seasons has been one of their most recent causes.


----------



## baird794

Alpha Burnt said:


> Re: HC and the high scores, our goal as bowhunters should be to be efficient enough to make the best shot we can as many times as we can. High scores are indicative of a good shot, good yardage judging, good execution and a really good day! I believe when we start to see people "cleaning" a 30 or 40 target course, we need to start wondering IF the course set is too easy or the individual shooter is shooting down a class or two than what he should be, commonly known as "sandbagging". Thinking out loud, should the International Bowhunting Organization even have a class where contestants are using moveable pins, lenses, 30" stabilizers and so on. The organization might consider stepping back and letting ASA or the Regions, take the shooters using that equipment. Should IBO not promote bowhunting equipment as in HC. I know that, I personally, do not have the cash to afford to purchase the nicer equipment and move up into the other classes. Could we not have different stages within the Hunter Class and Advanced Hunter Class, in which your ability could be factored in? DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I am not looking to get rid of all of these classes, but, should a person that likes to compete with bowhunting equipment, using actual bowhunting equipment be forced to buy large diameter shafts, lenses, longer stabilizers to go up in classes. I would assume that IF they still want to be competitive within those classes they would. Would the pros still shoot if they were stuck with using bowhunter type equipment? Just thinking out loud here. Seems that if everyone was using bowhunting style equipment, the cream would rise to the top. Camaraderie, I would love to see big Tim, Chance, and the other big name pro's shooting with me or in another group where we were all on the same playing field. It would clear up the ambiguous equipment questions and violations if everyone knew exactly what they were and were not supposed to have. I know there is a rule book, I believe a whole lot of times one gets the bug to shoot and knows they are not going to be competitive so they do not even read the rule books and go just to have fun. AGAIN, I am just thinking out loud, looking for suggestions...


i think that if you shoot hunter class that you should not be aloud to use fat shafts because you are not going to take fat shafts and shoot deer with them. you should have to use the hunting arrows that you would use for hunting which would be heavier arrows. you are not going to grain out your arrows for hunting either. IMO


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## hrtlnd164

Grnmtn said:


> I would reccommend calling the IBO... get Rudy's contact info, he is the State Rep guy. Submit your resume and application and join the ranks of the state reps. Then work on trying to make your voice heard thru the back channels rather then out here where getting baited by the professional IBO haters... I know it is hard to ignor them but walk away from them and compile a list of things you see from the simi inside and try and move them along the train. Change can be slow but keep working at it. Second as a rep you have your id and rule book with you you become an in the field official. At the national shoots you are asked to volenteer some time if you can helping in a number of different ways from working a table or helping with future bow hunter shoot. You need to start from within to help make change.


Very good suggestion with the only problem being that Rudy is no longer on the board. Rudy was the board member who would listen to the shooters and voice their opinions and complaints, sort of the voice for the membership. I believe he was respected by most of the shooters because of his willingness to listen. Unfortunately this earned him a one way ride to "wedontwanttohearit'ville" from the IBO. Change will only come from those willing to believe there may be a better way.


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## xringbob

baird794 said:


> i think that if you shoot hunter class that you should not be aloud to use fat shafts because you are not going to take fat shafts and shoot deer with them. you should have to use the hunting arrows that you would use for hunting which would be heavier arrows. you are not going to grain out your arrows for hunting either. IMO


I shoot xcutters for hunting what is your definition of a hunting arrow


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## xringbob

Alpha Burnt said:


> just because that happened to us, does not mean it is alright for them to continue to do, does it?


How many Ibo qualifiers,state shoots and world championship targets that was over 3yrds of max that you have shot.


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## Uzurmnd247

I don't shoot IBO anymore. But my suggestion in the HC is that they make it a 23/64 arrow. Like the use to do for indoors. The 2213 and 2315's. Let's say the diameter of Easton Fatboys or less. If the IBO doesn't go by their own rules, why should the shooters? JMO!


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## hrtlnd164

hrtlnd164 said:


> Very good suggestion with the only problem being that Rudy is no longer on the board. Rudy was the board member who would listen to the shooters and voice their opinions and complaints, sort of the voice for the membership. I believe he was respected by most of the shooters because of his willingness to listen. Unfortunately this earned him a one way ride to "wedontwanttohearit'ville" from the IBO. Change will only come from those willing to believe there may be a better way.


Didn't want to leave it hanging with negativity so my things to change list would go like this:
1. Need at least 1 informed range official per course for those that need rules clarifications and to check the slow groups.
2. Assigned times for all classes.
3. Less classes. Combining some classes would equal better payouts. Ex.. HC, AHC and MBR combined with revamped regs would cover the pins shooters. Bigger class bigger payback.
4. Novice class with a 1 year max limit before you move out. Trophy only.
5. Bring the Pros and Semi's back on sight with shotgun starts.
6. The event organizers should be held to follow their own guidelines, set a max range and abide by it for all classes.
7. As stated above, be open to the fact that there may be things to improve on as an organization and be willing to move in the right direction.
Just seems as though most IBO conversations turn into a piss and moan conversation. I have been fairly critical of the IBO lately for my own reasons. Somewhere some change for the better needs to happen but no one has the answers. None of us want to see anything archery fail cause it's what we enjoy doing. But there are growing numbers of fed up shooters looking for other options and the IBO needs to see it.


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## wpk

baird794 said:


> i think that if you shoot hunter class that you should not be aloud to use fat shafts because you are not going to take fat shafts and shoot deer with them. you should have to use the hunting arrows that you would use for hunting which would be heavier arrows. you are not going to grain out your arrows for hunting either. IMO


Your definition of a hunting arrow and somebody else's definition of a hunting arrow are two different arrows.
This is not hunting this is target archery.


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## Alpha Burnt

My hunting arrows are light, relatively speaking, the last 4 or 5 years have been around 370 grains, this year they will be 390 grains. I have used the fat shafts before but from now on, I am shooting the regular sized shafts (.300 or less). I think the talk of changing arrow regulations is premature when we cannot get officials to follow the rule book to start with.


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## Alpha Burnt

xringbob said:


> How many Ibo qualifiers,state shoots and world championship targets that was over 3yrds of max that you have shot.


I did not range them, did not have a rangefinder, but I would bet that at Bedford last year there was at least two targets pushing 4 or 5 yards past max. One is too many. This is a competitive tournament with rules in place.


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## xringbob

Alpha Burnt said:


> I did not range them, did not have a rangefinder, but I would bet that at Bedford last year there was at least two targets pushing 4 or 5 yards past max. One is too many. This is a competitive tournament with rules in place.


You shoot the same target as everybody else does. Some people hit it good and the others cry cause they didn't and complain the it was just to far for them to range. I understand it is a rule and you have a max for a reason.


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## Alpha Burnt

xringbob said:


> You shoot the same target as everybody else does. Some people hit it good and the others cry cause they didn't and complain the it was just to far for them to range. I understand it is a rule and you have a max for a reason.


Deliberately setting a target beyond the max range is wrong, at least, I think so. Say you have a 40 max and you have a pin set for 41. The target is 44 yards actual. You are the 4th shooter in your group. You watch 3 people who you have watched shoot good all day. The first 3 hit low and perfect left and right. The last shooter has the advantage in this. There is no crying or whining. Fairness and consistency are worth complaining about.


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## nochance

Alpha Burnt said:


> You watch 3 people who you have watched shoot good all day. The first 3 hit low and perfect left and right. The last shooter has the advantage in this. There is no crying or whining.


or perhaps the 1st guy estimates the range correctly rather than underestimating. He nails the shot and the other 3 shoot low? I know we expect evrything to be right but thats not alwys the case. I think there is too much thinking that he's sandbagging or he has fat arrows thats why he beat me. On another note the rineharts were much easier to pull arrows than the older McKenzies(My shop had both) But the newer Mckenzies aren't too bad. A friend of mine had a good idea the other day. Let HC be for novice 1 or 2 years. Then AHC after that but AHC 35 yards max, and MBR 40 or 45. MBR may draw more. Also I believe ibo has ~ the same # classes as ASA.


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## Alpha Burnt

nochance said:


> or perhaps the 1st guy estimates the range correctly rather than underestimating. He nails the shot and the other 3 shoot low? I know we expect evrything to be right but thats not alwys the case. I think there is too much thinking that he's sandbagging or he has fat arrows thats why he beat me. On another note the rineharts were much easier to pull arrows than the older McKenzies(My shop had both) But the newer Mckenzies aren't too bad. A friend of mine had a good idea the other day. Let HC be for novice 1 or 2 years. Then AHC after that but AHC 35 yards max, and MBR 40 or 45. MBR may draw more. Also I believe ibo has ~ the same # classes as ASA.


I agree with a lot of what you have said, I just happen to think HC is challenging enough without throwing any curveballs. Heck, the way I shoot- I could use a rangefinder and get beat. I have seen a lot of guys come on here and belittle HC class and ranges, wonder how many of them cleaned it and then moved on to another class?


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## Droptine

I shoot a 50 yard approximate class and you better keep the word approximate fresh in your mind. I think 57 is the highest i have ever set my sight at a ibo. Judge the target and shoot it for what you think!!!


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## Beentown

baird794 said:


> i think that if you shoot hunter class that you should not be aloud to use fat shafts because you are not going to take fat shafts and shoot deer with them. you should have to use the hunting arrows that you would use for hunting which would be heavier arrows. you are not going to grain out your arrows for hunting either. IMO


Are you new to the forum? Can't tell as I am on Tapatalk but MANY guys on here shoot right at or just above 5GPP. Also, I have taken many deer with 2512's. I needed to buy an arrow to do it all and they were the SuperSlams and Eclipses. 

I am not as worried aboug equipment as I am the competitive spirit (group busting and cheating) and to have the course laid out like it should be.


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## Bowtech n ROSS

Agree with droptine. We had constant sets over 50. I shot a boar at cardinal for 56 yards. Kinda liked it.


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## Droptine

I hunt with 22's and they weigh about 365 and i shoot 70 pound hunting. I shoot same arrow for 3d, only difference is hunting arrow has insert and 2 inch blazer. I think all the changes ibo has made to try and please people is the down fall of it. Read the rules, set your equipment up and go compete. If you are going to win and dont then practice more because u can bet the guys winning are!!!


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## Dartonman

> Most people don't realize that the IBO was never founded to be a 3D archery organization, there mission is to defend bowhunters rights and promote bowhunting worldwide. They only got into the 3D thing to increase awareness of bowhunting and to raise money to further the organizations mission of protecting and promoting bowhunting. They were the first ones to do these national level 3D tournaments and when others saw that there was money to be made doing it, they jumped in.


How would they fund they gallant effort to defend bowhunters without the funds generated by these shoots? They may get to experience the "how" if the attendance drops off substantially.


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## C.Callison

This has been talked to death. As far as the problems with the IBO and the HC. The HC is a very large class and it dosen't matter what the scores are or who's shooting them because the number of shooters in the class continues to grow. So from a business stand point why fix a so called problem when only a few seem to have a problem. I realy don't care what class anybody wants to shoot. I have competed in several different classes from HC to MBO. If I return to shooting the IBO I will shoot the class that I can be my best at. If I shoot better then someone else they can choose to work harder and shoot better or they can complain about me being better than them and I should be put in another class. Why don't we look at the bottom half of the HC and throw those guys out so the so called sandbaggers don't have to shoot worse to let those guys win. It's called competition. You use everything you can to your advantage to win. That is the point. Shooting against the best is the point.
Ok now let me give my opinion with some facts of what is going on at the IBO. When talking about the IBO and trying to compare the IBO and ASA, the short and sweat answer I always got was the IBO is a non profit and all about promoting bowhunting and the ASA is all about making a profit. Well isn't that what a business is supposed to do? The ASA owns the shoot. They promote it set up the venue,make the rules and enforce them. Because they are in the business of doing that. The IBO dosen't run the shoots they put the IBO stamp on them so they can be called a world or national shoot. That way the title is worth winning. The only rules they care about enforcing is one that if not enforced,may drop the value of the IBO stamp. I will give one example. Several years ago I noticed the winner of the indoor world shoot in the HC from the year before had won it a second time the following year. The rules clearly say that you have to move from the HC after winning the world championship. Well that is correct, but it dose'nt say the indoor worlds so the big indoor shoot in cleveland is just that. A big indoor local shoot that the IBO puts a stamp on to make it sound just like a world championship.
As for the IBO being a defender of bowhunting for you and me, well I see the bowhunting legislation things in the back of the book but what I don't see is any information on who I need to contact as a voter, or what is happening around me and what I can do to help. So with that being said lets move on to the shoots. The shoots are held at the same clubs year after year. The shoots are run by the clubs not the IBO. The IBO gets about $5 per shooter for the IBO stamp. That dosen't seem worth it. Especialy since the poor old non profit IBO has to take all the heat when things go wrong,and realy the IBO is more worried about protecting our bowhunting rights and barley has enough money to operate on,wright. Well if you compare the names on the IBO BOD and the names of the leaders of the clubs that put on the shoots you will see a lot of the same names. So what is realy happening hear? This is not a newsflash. I have discussed this before, no one is intersted.
All you can do is educate yourself about the organization you choose to belong to. Once you know how things are you make a decesion to shoot and take the IBO for what it is. Or don't shoot. They don't care, because they don't have to.


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## Alpha Burnt

Bryan J Marcum president, Gene Bihler executive vice president, Mike Stitt vice president, Chris Turner secretary, Doug Frautschy treasurer.

Gary Baldwin, Jimmy Blackmon, Levy Bryant, Joey Burwell, Martin Head, Norm Heckard, E.J. Hess, Bob Koontz, Craig Matteson, Mike Shepherd, Terry Walter, Ken Watkins, Dan Wiley and J.R. Absher.

These are the board of directors and officers according to the 2013 yearbook. Which ones are left? Which ones are affiliated with the clubs the National shoots are held at?


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## Alpha Burnt

C.Callison said:


> Well if you compare the names on the IBO BOD and the names of the leaders of the clubs that put on the shoots you will see a lot of the same names


I listed the names, can you enlighten us?


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## C.Callison

Just check the names of the BOD and ibo officals, with the names of the people that run the host clubs for the national shoots. I did my homework on this before when I was shooting all the IBO's. I got my fill of it and made my mind up to live with it and shoot or leave. I'm not trying to back track I know what I found. The names may have changed by now. But like I said in my post I have put this on here before. It just seems like every year someone wants to fix the IBO. They get on here and get a thread started then it turns into bashing,then people get a break in the weather and get away from the computer and start practicing for the next IBO shoot that they were just bashing a month before. I don't mean anything against you. You do what you feel you need to do. If I deceide to shoot some IBO this year I will shoot knowing what I know about the customer service and not worry about anything except haveing a good time. I think I will even shoot hunter class. I have spent to much of my life on here talking about King Ken Watkins and the IBO. You have a good day and good luck.


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## Alpha Burnt

C.Callison said:


> Just check the names of the BOD and ibo officals, with the names of the people that run the host clubs for the national shoots. I did my homework on this before when I was shooting all the IBO's. I got my fill of it and made my mind up to live with it and shoot or leave. I'm not trying to back track I know what I found. The names may have changed by now. But like I said in my post I have put this on here before. It just seems like every year someone wants to fix the IBO. They get on here and get a thread started then it turns into bashing,then people get a break in the weather and get away from the computer and start practicing for the next IBO shoot that they were just bashing a month before. I don't mean anything against you. You do what you feel you need to do. If I deceide to shoot some IBO this year I will shoot knowing what I know about the customer service and not worry about anything except haveing a good time. I think I will even shoot hunter class. I have spent to much of my life on here talking about King Ken Watkins and the IBO. You have a good day and good luck.



Nothing malicious meant, just wanting to find out who was part of the clubs where they would be double dipping. Nonprofit in IBO position and funnel money to a club where they benefit from profit the club makes. True about the weather, to compound that I have been sick and had a lot of AT time. I was hoping to shed some light on some of the perceived problems, document these, act as a discussion leader and channel people to possible solutions. What is my motive? Really, just want a level playing field, as I have stated before, I am in no position to win, I am not that good of a shot. They have the only venues that I can afford to attend and that is only because I can share the expense with 4 or 5 others when we go. Would like to see more archers out there, but shoots ran in a more orderly fashion and during the competition, have no double standards. I love to shoot with people better than me and from different areas. I do not want notoriety or even my name to get out with these posts. I am not in a position to join the board or have the time to devote to doing much more than attending shoots. I thought if we could have an intelligent and enlightening discussion back and forth on these forums, someone would stand up and take notice from the IBO and get control of the reins. It really only benefits me to see the IBO to succeed in their mission statement and goals, the way things are going, the may be on the downhill slide. Just trying to prevent it.


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## Deer Slayer I

here we go again with hc i understand the rules of hc and yes its the biggest class now but if you want to bring people into the sport like it was meant to do it has to be a aclass where your average shooter can compete look at the numbers of the ibo shoots its not increasing and if you made another class for novice same results


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## hrtlnd164

Alpha Burnt said:


> Bryan J Marcum president, Gene Bihler executive vice president, Mike Stitt vice president, Chris Turner secretary, Doug Frautschy treasurer.
> 
> Gary Baldwin, Jimmy Blackmon, Levy Bryant, Joey Burwell, Martin Head, Norm Heckard, E.J. Hess, Bob Koontz, Craig Matteson, Mike Shepherd, Terry Walter, Ken Watkins, Dan Wiley and J.R. Absher.
> 
> These are the board of directors and officers according to the 2013 yearbook. Which ones are left? Which ones are affiliated with the clubs the National shoots are held at?


Gem City- Gene Biehler, EJ Hess, Craig Matteson
White River-Gary Baldwin, Norm Heckard
Cardinal Center-Dan Wiley
May have missed some but that's a start. A couple others arefrom the southern sights or former sights such as Snowshoe. Not sure on their names though.


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## Hoosier bowman

IBO needs to:

-go back to McKenzie targets
-stop selling and removing practice bales before the end of a tournament
-stop setting up practice ranges on terrible terrain
-announce when they stop shooting because of rain (we were never told to stop shooting @ worlds this year until we go to the bottom of the mountain....)


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## Alpha Burnt

hrtlnd164 said:


> Gem City- Gene Biehler, EJ Hess, Craig Matteson
> White River-Gary Baldwin, Norm Heckard
> Cardinal Center-Dan Wiley
> May have missed some but that's a start. A couple others arefrom the southern sights or former sights such as Snowshoe. Not sure on their names though.


I am beginning to see the problem, there should at least be neutral board of directors with no affiliation to the clubs where the major shoots are held. Nobody wants to see their home club get a black eye from a shoddily run tournament, therefore ignore the complaints whether they are valid or not. Hopefully, these people you mentioned that have ties to those clubs do not make money from being a club official- that would create an entirely different credibility issue. Thanks for posting that.


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## hrtlnd164

Alpha Burnt said:


> I am beginning to see the problem, there should at least be neutral board of directors with no affiliation to the clubs where the major shoots are held. Nobody wants to see their home club get a black eye from a shoddily run tournament, therefore ignore the complaints whether they are valid or not. Hopefully, these people you mentioned that have ties to those clubs do not make money from being a club official- that would create an entirely different credibility issue. Thanks for posting that.


I am not saying it's a problem or not, everyone has their own feelings on that issue. I know a few of these guys personally and have nothing against them. Heck I shoot a couple shoots at Gem City each year. Great facility. But it does limit the chance of shooting different venues for sure.


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## Alpha Burnt

They may be fine, but it does look bad if they are holding positions that could be self serving. That would lead me to assume that they would try to keep up a facade that things are running smoothly, when they are not. You know what they say about assumptions though.


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## wpk

Deer Slayer I said:


> here we go again with hc i understand the rules of hc and yes its the biggest class now but if you want to bring people into the sport like it was meant to do it has to be a aclass where your average shooter can compete look at the numbers of the ibo shoots its not increasing and if you made another class for novice same results


That's what your local shoots are for


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## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> That's what your local shoots are for



Are you talking about "IBO Qualifiers" or regular shoots?


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## Deer Slayer I

wpk said:


> That's what your local shoots are for


this is the kind of thinking that will never allow this sport to grow


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## SonnyThomas

Deer Slayer I said:


> here we go again with hc i understand the rules of hc and yes its the biggest class now but if you want to bring people into the sport like it was meant to do it has to be a aclass where your average shooter can compete look at the numbers of the ibo shoots its not increasing and if you made another class for novice same results





wpk said:


> That's what your local shoots are for





Deer Slayer I said:


> this is the kind of thinking that will never allow this sport to grow


I noted this in a previous reply. By and large every bow novice I know of (regardless of what bow novice class) shoots max yardage at local 3Ds - 45 and 50 yards not uncommon. The NFAA has a straight bowhunter freestyle class and I never heard of complaints of the "new shooter" being handicapped or whatever you want to call it. It's called practice, you local 3D club.


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## Deer Slayer I

SonnyThomas said:


> I noted this in a previous reply. By and large every bow novice I know of (regardless of what bow novice class) shoots max yardage at local 3Ds - 45 and 50 yards not uncommon. The NFAA has a straight bowhunter freestyle class and I never heard of complaints of the "new shooter" being handicapped or whatever you want to call it. It's called practice, you local 3D club.


really 45-50 yds for hunter class wow!!! i gusess your open class must shoot out to a 100


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## z3shooter

i enjoyed mbr much more when it was 50yd max. i think there are too many classes in ibo.setting a course up and having to put 6 different stakes per tatget is a joke


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## Deer Slayer I

SonnyThomas said:


> The NFAA has a straight bowhunter freestyle class and I never heard of complaints of the "new shooter" being handicapped or whatever you want to call it. It's called practice, you local 3D club.


this has nothing to do with 3d shooting bhfs has classes aa a b c it all depends on your average score plus its all marked yardage


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## Alpha Burnt

Well...someone else can try to take this and run with it. Too much ego, pride and people wanting to argue to see any results on these issues, I give up. I strongly believe alot of people just try to post things to get a rise out of people in these types of threads and I have tried reasoning and sometimes ignoring, but I have come to the realization that you cannot please all of the people all of the time and this just goes to show the state of our nation at this time. We are divided on every issue, corruption by leaders and those in charge are expected and overlooked. No one will listen to reason nor take the time to consider for one second that there is a problem. I am hoping these issues we brought to light get addressed by the IBO. Some mentioned joining the IBO, going through their internal structure and making a difference, I do not feel the need to align myself with something this messed up. It would take up too much time and too much energy. Bash on, my friends; I know that is one thing I can count on here when all else fails.


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## wpk

Deer Slayer I said:


> this is the kind of thinking that will never allow this sport to grow


My point was local shoots are for learning the ropes get in with the guys that are the best in your area and learn what you can


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## Supermag1

Deer Slayer I said:


> this has nothing to do with 3d shooting bhfs has classes aa a b c it all depends on your average score plus its all marked yardage


Um, NO. NFAA Unmarked shoots have all adult males (except traditional equipment) shoot from the same stake which is 50 yards max. I shoot barebow (fingers, no sights) and shoot from the same stake as the Pro Male Freestyle shooters. The best shooter in the class still wins their class but if you just care about putting up big numbers, you better be good.


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## SonnyThomas

Deer Slayer I said:


> this has nothing to do with 3d shooting bhfs has classes aa a b c it all depends on your average score plus its all marked yardage


Not on the State level. Bowhunter Freestyle is head to head with max of 45 yards. However, scores are broken down to Flights. I've got the paper work. I was on the (NFAA) I.A.A Board of Directors.


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## SonnyThomas

Deer Slayer I said:


> really 45-50 yds for hunter class wow!!! i gusess your open class must shoot out to a 100


Getting cranky, are we? State level is 45 yards max for all Adult classes except Traditional. Women shoot the stake as men, 45 yards.


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## chromes-z7

does anyone think Rinehart has smaller scoring rings than Mckenzie?


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## BruceZ

I would like to see officials on the course to correct problems out there. And they would have the power and will to handle situations such as slow shooting groups that stop every one on the course and so on.


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## Garceau

chromes-z7 said:


> does anyone think Rinehart has smaller scoring rings than Mckenzie?


Nope.....seem pretty equal. 

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## Joseph McCluske

Alpha Burnt said:


> IBO, it is a new tournament year, you have a new president and I hope you are learning from some of the comments placed in this thread http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1934146 and many others throughout the last few years. I encourage AT members to post up problems with the IBO, here and we can let the shooters scores from the "indoor worlds" thread alone. I hope the IBO is paying attention, listens and corrects these complaints now, they have time to turn their organization around before any major shoots this year. There is a new president and unfortunately, I have heard the board of directors have decreased steadily in numbers in the last few months because of internal problems and failing to adhere to major goals of the IBO. I know in the traditional archery forum member jimmy blackmon is on the bod, so maybe he can see this thread and spread concerns to the IBO, they can take corrective action before it is ruined beyond repair. Please post up your complaints in a constructive way and maybe, just maybe, this can be resolved.


6 pages, and we've accomplished as much as finishing 2nd, nobody cares...


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## baird794

joseph mccluske said:


> 6 pages, and we've accomplished as much as finishing 2nd, nobody cares...


no i am not new to this forum, i have worked in archery shops and been shooting since i was 6 and your every day bowhunter is not out buying big shafts to bowhunt with. Now if your in to your 3 year of going to 3-d shoots yes i could see someone buying big shafts to shoot 3-d and hunt with. My comment was only applying to hc and how to get people out of that class that is there for 10 years and after 2-3 years you are not a novice shooter anymore. Then you go to ahc. You asked for comments and i gave you one. Y the hell does someone want to comment on here if you guys are going questioning the comments. Hope you all have a good year. Now shut'up and shoot!!!


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## Supermag1

chromes-z7 said:


> does anyone think Rinehart has smaller scoring rings than Mckenzie?


Nope and if you have to shoot a turkey, you'll bet to shoot a Rinehart (the rings are HUGE on the Rinehart turkey in comparison to the Mckenzie birds).


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## SonnyThomas

chromes-z7 said:


> does anyone think Rinehart has smaller scoring rings than Mckenzie?


Just shot new Rineharts centers yesterday at Presley's First Annual Indoor 3D. 10 and 12 scoring rings varied. Some 12 rings larger on a like size target or smaller if the other way around 
Turkeys did seem a tad bigger 10 and 12 rings than McKenzies.

And the new McKenzies are to be standardized this year. All will have 5" 10 rings and 1.5" 12 rings, coyotes and javalinas through whatever larger target used on the national circuit.


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## labtech8

Alpha Burnt said:


> Some recurring themes have been made clear here so far.
> 
> 1. Hunter Class seems to be the one class that has the most problems. HC requirements seem too broad, the class is too big, there are time factors due to bottlenecks, the class seems to have the need to "graduate up". Possibly bust the class into novice, intermediate and money?
> 
> 2. Yardages and range sets seem to be another factor. It has been suggested there be a universal rangefinder that IBO should employ the use of and adhere to the range limits. With the use of two or three rangefinders that are reading the same for target setting and maybe recording the yardage to post after tournament is over?
> 
> 3. Time. The respect of adhering to the 2 minute time rule seems to not exist. Time is a very important factor to people in this day and age, being a fast paced society. No time limit or observe the one in place or find a new time limit?
> 
> 4. Range Officials. Having readily accessible range officials to report infractions to in a timely matter that will keep things moving smoothly and timely. Will these be IBO officials intermingled with venue specific officials? In the absence of adequate officiating, the challenges should not be paid challenges?
> 
> 5. Grouping. Seems to be a problem with people that are friends shooting together and not being mixed up. If there is a money class in HC, there should never be an unbusted group.
> 
> 6. This could probably fall under Range Officials but equipment checks and contraband searches prior to starting a group seems it would alleviate some repeated problems.
> 
> 7. Venue accountability. If the host is using IBO name to hold a tournament, IBO should call the shots and educate these venues as to what is expected. They must adhere to the rules (the setting of targets with IBO rangefinder) , provide adequate coverage (range officials), provide equal notice to all in the case of tournament suspension due to weather or safety factors. Maybe a thorough briefing mandatory for all support with detailed explanation of the rules and what is to be expected out of the venue? Monetary sanctions for venue deficiencies?


Just some thoughts and solutions of my own:
1. Permanent flights once you reach a certain score. 
2. Use any rangefinder to set course. There are really no newer models that are +/- 2 yards. At most +/- 2 yards due to terrain.
3. - 5. Lets bring in some local boy/girl scouts with adult supervision to do time limits/scoring. Any arguing with the kids = automatic ejection from the course!
6. Why just check at the start. Random searches if anyone even suspects contriband equipment.
Targets - Once the time is up lets just use some targets rom all major manufactures, that way everyone gets a piece of the action and maybe some newer technologies coming out.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

labtech8 said:


> Just some thoughts and solutions of my own:
> 1. Permanent flights once you reach a certain score.
> 2. Use any rangefinder to set course. There are really no newer models that are +/- 2 yards. At most +/- 2 yards due to terrain.
> 3. - 5. Lets bring in some local boy/girl scouts with adult supervision to do time limits/scoring. Any arguing with the kids = automatic ejection from the course!
> 6. Why just check at the start. Random searches if anyone even suspects contriband equipment.
> Targets - Once the time is up lets just use some targets rom all major manufactures, that way everyone gets a piece of the action and maybe some newer technologies coming out.


No objections to this from me


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## draines

OK.....well, I spent years not shooting archery since I was a kid. I just got back into it and will be shooting my first IBO shoot this coming weekend (3/23) in eastern PA. I will be in the HC due to my lack of archery experience. After reading all the above threads, I am debating on shooting AHC over HC just to eliminate crowds. Is this a wise move? My father shoots pro and I would like to shoot with him (different division) at the worlds this June....so, if I understand correctly, I will need to score well in the Qualifier this weekend to be able to shoot? 
Reading these posts does not make novice shooters want to spend my time and/or money to drive to a shoot where I will have to deal with high school drama on the range. I just want to shoot and enjoy the range with some honest competition. IBO should police these forums just to try and address the public image novice shooters will get while reading. Has anyone from IBO commented? Maybe they don't call themselves out as such, but I'd feel a little better is someone...anyone...from IBO was on here saying they "are working on the issues"...etc.
I guess I'll still make the trip this weekend, but I am definitely a little worried. I shot ASA as a youth and remember enjoying the shoots. I hope there is still some joy out there to be had??
Dan


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## wpk

Go and have fun in the end that is what matters 
There are a lot of great people in both organizations
And shoot what class you want to shoot if your equipment falls in that category


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## nochance

most of the drama is on archery talk. I've had fun and enjoyed evry shoot I've been to and the HC course at the worlds I went to was quicker than most of the other ranges.


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## Babyk

:darkbeer:


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## Alpha Burnt

babyk said:


> :darkbeer:


m 
k


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## IRISH_11

IBO is a joke. Plain and simple. The changing of the shoot times for the pro classes to Friday & Saturday has made it where I can no longer attend any of their shoots. And nobody can even give me a legit reason as to why this was done. Pitiful. They said they took a survey but I have yet to hear anybody who participated in said survey say they voted for the change in times. IBO has never listened to their shooters and never will. For an organization that has been around for as long as they have to still be making rookie mistakes is ludacris. Long live ASA!! An organization of the shooters,by the shooters and for the shooters. They can run 1400+ shooters in an out and have scores up within an hour. Only difference between ASA and IBO is that the ASA has more WANT TO!


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## milkman38

just got back from west monroe asa shoot, first asa in 7 years. had a great time but i have fun at all shoots. couple things i didnt care for was had to shoot all 40 in same day and watching everyone looking over and getting the yardage on next target as we walked up to score, wondered why they wouldnt just crisscross down the lane. peaple have been awesome at both ibo and ths asa and now i can say i really like both


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## nickel shooter5

IRISH_11 said:


> IBO is a joke. Plain and simple. The changing of the shoot times for the pro classes to Friday & Saturday has made it where I can no longer attend any of their shoots. And nobody can even give me a legit reason as to why this was done. Pitiful. They said they took a survey but I have yet to hear anybody who participated in said survey say they voted for the change in times. IBO has never listened to their shooters and never will. For an organization that has been around for as long as they have to still be making rookie mistakes is ludacris. Long live ASA!! An organization of the shooters,by the shooters and for the shooters. They can run 1400+ shooters in an out and have scores up within an hour. Only difference between ASA and IBO is that the ASA has more WANT TO!


I voted, and YES i voted for Fri & Sat. I feel the IBO got it right in this case.


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## Dartonman

Disagree...the IBO made that decision...the survey was not unanimous to change shoot days. Obviously it was unanimous amongst the "good ole boys" and that's the way it stands. I'm with Irish on this one...sitting out the IBO this year.


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## nickel shooter5

In the survey they gave two choices.... 1) Fri & Sat on the pro course 2) Whenever on the mbo course.... Not much of a choice. IBO cant make everyone happy, and I'm sure they will still have a good turnout.


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## Dartonman

Time will answer the turnout question...as well as the "will rhinehart bail" question. No ill feelings here...hope they wise up and get back in the game soon.


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## IRISH_11

nickel shooter5 said:


> In the survey they gave two choices.... 1) Fri & Sat on the pro course 2) Whenever on the mbo course.... Not much of a choice. IBO cant make everyone happy, and I'm sure they will still have a good turnout.


You just proved my point on how ignorant the IBO truly is. It is obvious by the choices in the survey what the BOARD was wanting to do and not the shooters. Like any semi-pro was going to a shoot whenever format and get pencil whipped. Survey might as well have said Shoot Friday & Saturday or do away with semi-pro class. Here's your sign IBO.


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## wpk

How much more is it to shoot pro over semi pro


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## J Whittington

your correct reylamb! Sadly, we all know its not going to happen. IBO= "Never has so little been done with so much potential" 





reylamb said:


> IBO needs to take charge of the shoots with their names on them. Let's face it, the host clubs run the shoots, IBO just puts their name on it. While I realize the host club needs to be able to provide some of the manpower, space, etc, the IBO officials need to be running the show.


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## 3D Pinwheeler

wpk said:


> How much more is it to shoot pro over semi pro


$175 or so I believe.


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## longdraw31

Guess I am a little cranky tonight. Sure would be nice to take a shot at shooter of the year once. With having to shoot 1 of the southern legs, this seems almost impossible and more like stupid to drive 13 hours to Georgia to shoot 40 shots. Then the shoot is no bigger than one of our local shoots. So the IBO has to set up shop in the the dead middle of ASA Country. I can't see breaking the bank for that title. Only other problem now is why then drive 9 hours to shoot Bedford. Theres not a real good reason for me or my buddies to go to Bedford anymore. If there was a triple crown shooter of the year, then we would probally be heading to Bedford. The ASA already has there shoots in Alabama and Georgia. Why not forget about these lightly attended IBO South shoots and have a 4th leg in somewhere like Southern New York and stop catering 2 more shoots to the ASA boys. They have a ton of shoots to go to with the ASA circuit and 2 IBO shoots down there. Living in Western Pa, we are lucky to get to 3 shoots a summer. Sure was hoping the Regions was going to take off but again they stuck one down in N.C.Seems the whole archery circuit is catered to the boys that live in AL,Ga, Kentucky and TN. There right in the middle of the wagon wheel. Guess your going to say now---move. Just saying IBO, set shop up North and make it worth our while to attend all the legs.


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## wpk

I would say they're down there more for the whether it's way too cold up north to shoot at those times a year


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## Alpha Burnt

Another disappointment...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2003045


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## Alpha Burnt

The least that one could expect is to support the US from them...they did take a stance on the gun control issue earlier this year but this is a step backwards...


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## Alpha Burnt

Anyone noticed any changes to this years IBO? I may shoot Marengo, haven't shot any so far...


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## bsharkey

shooter of the year is a joke.
just because someone made the trip south and shot half ***** well then did the same at the triple crown all the sudden they are shooter of the year?you could win all 3 of the triple crown and not get shooter of the year because you didn't go down south how does that make sense. hell the southern shoots aren't even full of shooters from the south its mostly us up here trying to get a belt buckle. i shot my first ASA this year in London and man is it a ton better. IMO 
i'm hooked on ASA son


----------



## trinibob

bsharkey said:


> shooter of the year is a joke.
> just because someone made the trip south and shot half ***** well then did the same at the triple crown all the sudden they are shooter of the year?you could win all 3 of the triple crown and not get shooter of the year because you didn't go down south how does that make sense. hell the southern shoots aren't even full of shooters from the south its mostly us up here trying to get a belt buckle. i shot my first ASA this year in London and man is it a ton better. IMO
> i'm hooked on ASA son


wow thats how that works seems dumb now i know why some around me went down south


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## Alpha Burnt

Was not aware of that. I thought the southern shoot used to be treated as the Indoor Worlds, as in "does not count".


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## archerydude21

Have to have 5 scores to win shooter of the year. There are only 6 shoots that count. 2 southerns, 3 triple crowns and worlds. There was talk of making worlds a required shoot, but I don't know if that ever happened.


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## WArcherH

The world is required so you only have to either go to one southern or your lowest score is dropped if you go to all the shoots.


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## carlosii

from some of the comments in another thread here about the erie shoot, it sounds like IBO still has lots of work to do. we'll see if anybody shows up at Anderson to shoot the Regions.


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## wpk

The only thing I was disappointed with at Erie was the lack of busting up of groups


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## tater tot

I can't say that I agree with a lot of the posts. If I was broke up from my "group " and forced to shoot with strangers I'd probably quit 
Coming. Also' if I was forced out of hunter class cause I be been in it for longer than x years I'd quit too. I don't have the time to get better to be a contender in ahc and it would be a miserable experience if I was forced into it.


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## archerydude21

I don't agree with mandatory move ups either, but groups should absolutely be busted. People need to remember this is SUPPOSED to be a national level archery tournament.


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## Kstigall

wpk said:


> The only thing I was disappointed with at Erie was the lack of busting up of groups


ABSOLUTELY!!! It is a MAJOR mistake on the IBO's part to not draw groups for archers shooting for money or the championship. As far as I'm concerned people shooting just for $10 trophies can shoot together. A lot of folks say they would quit if they could not shoot with their buddies but I seriously doubt busting groups would have a negative impact on turn out. Just look at the growth of the ASA. Some of the growth can be attributed to the known distance classes.



tater tot said:


> I can't say that I agree with a lot of the posts. If I was broke up from my "group " and forced to shoot with strangers I'd probably quit
> Coming. Also' if I was forced out of hunter class cause I be been in it for longer than x years I'd quit too. I don't have the time to get better to be a contender in ahc and it would be a miserable experience if I was forced into it.


tater tot, 
The good part about being split up is that you meet new archers. Your travel partners meet new archers. Over time you make more friends and tournaments become more interesting. The younger archers mature by shooting with peers in their division rather than their close associates. I can tell you right now that if you think folks aren't stretching the scoring rings you are kidding yourself, i.e. you have been beaten by folks cheating. I have heard a scorer say more than once "I'm going to call all the arrows the same way" as he looked at an arrow that was clearly OUT of a higher scoring ring. This is total :bs: Groups assigned by draw are much more likely to NOT let a bully cheat or to be swayed.

At ASA shoots you can see and talk to other archers. Friends and family can watch you shoot. They can come and go as they please.


----------



## YankeeRebel

IRISH_11 said:


> IBO is a joke. Plain and simple. The changing of the shoot times for the pro classes to Friday & Saturday has made it where I can no longer attend any of their shoots. And nobody can even give me a legit reason as to why this was done. Pitiful. They said they took a survey but I have yet to hear anybody who participated in said survey say they voted for the change in times. IBO has never listened to their shooters and never will. For an organization that has been around for as long as they have to still be making rookie mistakes is ludacris. Long live ASA!! An organization of the shooters,by the shooters and for the shooters. They can run 1400+ shooters in an out and have scores up within an hour. Only difference between ASA and IBO is that the ASA has more WANT TO!


Oh there is alot more difference than that. Here are a few ...... others can add to it. 

ASA has: 

1) Shotgun Starts for all classes

2) Range officials on all Ranges

3) Practice bags are on level ground

4) Scores posted within an hour or so

5) Awards Ceremonies are done in a timely fashion

6) PAYOUT 

7) Busting up groups 

8) ASA is smoothly ran because they take input from the shooters and try to accommodate all the shooters. 

If you are one of those people who have to experience it yourself, go shoot a ASA Pro AM and then go shoot a IBO Shoot and you will see how both are ran...and THEN come back here and voice your opinion. 

I was hoping with a New President and all the problems that IBO have been having that he would take the reins and do some major cleanup. But the only major change that I have seen thus far is changing to Rinehart targets and making the Semi Pro and Pro classes shoot on Friday and Saturday. And if they made any other changes that I am not aware of then I apologize. 

Maybe there should be a petition started and given to IBO to make major changes. I am closer to most the IBO shoots than I am the ASA Shoots and it would be a joy to compete close to home versus driving 12 and 14 hours to a shoot. C'mon IBO get with the program!!!


----------



## cenochs

YankeeRebel said:


> Oh there is alot more difference than that. Here are a few ...... others can add to it.
> 
> ASA has:
> 
> 1) Shotgun Starts for all classes
> 
> 2) Range officials on all Ranges
> 
> 3) Practice bags are on level ground
> 
> 4) Scores posted within an hour or so
> 
> 5) Awards Ceremonies are done in a timely fashion
> 
> 6) PAYOUT
> 
> 7) Busting up groups
> 
> 8) ASA is smoothly ran because they take input from the shooters and try to accommodate all the shooters.
> 
> If you are one of those people who have to experience it yourself, go shoot a ASA Pro AM and then go shoot a IBO Shoot and you will see how both are ran...and THEN come back here and voice your opinion.
> 
> I was hoping with a New President and all the problems that IBO have been having that he would take the reins and do some major cleanup. But the only major change that I have seen thus far is changing to Rinehart targets and making the Semi Pro and Pro classes shoot on Friday and Saturday. And if they made any other changes that I am not aware of then I apologize.
> 
> Maybe there should be a petition started and given to IBO to make major changes. I am closer to most the IBO shoots than I am the ASA Shoots and it would be a joy to compete close to home versus driving 12 and 14 hours to a shoot. C'mon IBO get with the program!!!



Well said!!


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

I've gone to Erie 5 years now. This year the ranges we shot on were pretty much a new layout. The course for MBR, AHC, HC. Was much more challenging than I've ever seen at Erie. On the down side the volunteers running the tents for the ranges were new and had little experience sending groups out from what I witnessed. The IBO needs a group to run these shoots in house. Quit relying on volunteers to do this. God knows the clubs and BOD make enough money at these shoots to afford it.


----------



## bsharkey

YankeeRebel said:


> Oh there is alot more difference than that. Here are a few ...... others can add to it.
> 
> ASA has:
> 
> 1) Shotgun Starts for all classes
> 
> 2) Range officials on all Ranges
> 
> 3) Practice bags are on level ground
> 
> 4) Scores posted within an hour or so
> 
> 5) Awards Ceremonies are done in a timely fashion
> 
> 6) PAYOUT
> 
> 7) Busting up groups
> 
> 8) ASA is smoothly ran because they take input from the shooters and try to accommodate all the shooters.
> 
> If you are one of those people who have to experience it yourself, go shoot a ASA Pro AM and then go shoot a IBO Shoot and you will see how both are ran...and THEN come back here and voice your opinion.
> 
> I was hoping with a New President and all the problems that IBO have been having that he would take the reins and do some major cleanup. But the only major change that I have seen thus far is changing to Rinehart targets and making the Semi Pro and Pro classes shoot on Friday and Saturday. And if they made any other changes that I am not aware of then I apologize.
> 
> Maybe there should be a petition started and given to IBO to make major changes. I am closer to most the IBO shoots than I am the ASA Shoots and it would be a joy to compete close to home versus driving 12 and 14 hours to a shoot. C'mon IBO get with the program!!!


i shot my first ASA in london and i can't think of any reason to ever go back to IBO.
just hearing friends call and text back from Erie about waiting an hour or more to shoot the first target no water no porta johns. uh yeah i cant wait to go back to the IBO:wink:


----------



## Alpha Burnt

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I've gone to Erie 5 years now. This year the ranges we shot on were pretty much a new layout. The course for MBR, AHC, HC. Was much more challenging than I've ever seen at Erie. On the down side the volunteers running the tents for the ranges were new and had little experience sending groups out from what I witnessed. The IBO needs a group to run these shoots in house. Quit relying on volunteers to do this. God knows the clubs and BOD make enough money at these shoots to afford it.


This is a shock to me, seems like it was one of the better ran shoots in years past.


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## 3D Pinwheeler

I'm not blaming the volunteers in any way. They were doing the best they could.


----------



## Outback Man

Anyone know why the defense range in Erie wasn't open Sun.? We shot it Sat. and was asked if we wanted to pay like $5 to shoot it that day or $10 for a weekend pass. We decided to do the weekend pass so we could shoot it Sunday before we finished up. When we got there Sun. the booth was completely empty and it looked like all the targets had been removed from the field.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Outback Man said:


> Anyone know why the defense range in Erie wasn't open Sun.? We shot it Sat. and was asked if we wanted to pay like $5 to shoot it that day or $10 for a weekend pass. We decided to do the weekend pass so we could shoot it Sunday before we finished up. When we got there Sun. the booth was completely empty and it looked like all the targets had been removed from the field.


Are the defense ranges open on Sundays all the time? Seems like I ran into that problem before and was told they are not open all day on Sunday.


----------



## stoz

I shot Erie and thought it was well run, our group was busted both Fri and sat and tho I wasn't excited about the target change I must say I like them now. I shot H C and had minimal back ups.


----------



## stoz

and no I have no association with iBo


----------



## tater tot

Kstigall said:


> ABSOLUTELY!!! It is a MAJOR mistake on the IBO's part to not draw groups for archers shooting for money or the championship. As far as I'm concerned people shooting just for $10 trophies can shoot together. A lot of folks say they would quit if they could not shoot with their buddies but I seriously doubt busting groups would have a negative impact on turn out. Just look at the growth of the ASA. Some of the growth can be attributed to the known distance classes.
> 
> 
> 
> tater tot,
> The good part about being split up is that you meet new archers. Your travel partners meet new archers. Over time you make more friends and tournaments become more interesting. The younger archers mature by shooting with peers in their division rather than their close associates. I can tell you right now that if you think folks aren't stretching the scoring rings you are kidding yourself, i.e. you have been beaten by folks cheating. I have heard a scorer say more than once "I'm going to call all the arrows the same way" as he looked at an arrow that was clearly OUT of a higher scoring ring. This is total :bs: Groups assigned by draw are much more likely to NOT let a bully cheat or to be swayed.
> 
> At ASA shoots you can see and talk to other archers. Friends and family can watch you shoot. They can come and go as they please.


You can still shoot with one or two other buddies, just not a group of four.


----------



## USAarcher

bsharkey said:


> i shot my first ASA in london and i can't think of any reason to ever go back to IBO.
> just hearing friends call and text back from Erie about waiting an hour or more to shoot the first target no water no porta johns. uh yeah i cant wait to go back to the IBO:wink:


I waited an hr to shoot 1 target then it took 2 hrs to get 3 targets in, all because they had course E with 20 targets instead of 5 so naturally everyone had to shoot that their first day!!!! And your right being a female I couldn't go to the bathroom since we shot another course first early of 10 targets only taking just over an hour then getting stuck on one course from 10:30 am until after 4pm really sucked!!! if Erie wasn't so close I wouldn't shoot it again and it's only my second IBO national shoot!!! Iv shot NAA 15 years and wanted to try something new and more affordable on the other hand I loved the Bedford shoot!!


----------



## USAarcher

All the vendors in Erie packed up and ran out by 9am Sunday morning which sucks if you work Fridays and can only shot Saturday and Sunday but spend your entire day shooting Saturday! When do you get to mingle!!! Not a fan of the pros shooting earlier then all the other classes!


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Changes for 2014? anyone heard anything?


----------



## GreggWNY

ASA= Professionally run, shooter friendly, difficult to cheat, 3 days of archery with SIMS, team shoot and competition

IBO= Unprofessional, run by dictators, lots of cheating, 10 or more hours to shoot 40 targets.

My favorite was what happened in Marengo.... 50 yard caribou on a 45 yard max course ( D ). After we shot (all 8's in our group shot at 45 to 46 yards) the people at the tent bought it up and apologized that it was so far over max. They said that once someone had shot it they couldn't change it. Well the problem was that lots of people who hadn't shot it heard him and word spread like wildfire. Very professional! ukey:

Non the less...I had a great time and shot with some great guys.


----------



## wpk

Our corse had about 6 targets over max one was a Turkey


----------



## Alpha Burnt

wpk said:


> Our corse had about 6 targets over max one was a Turkey


Yes, I have heard that it was pretty bad if you are talking about the Marengo shoot.


----------



## hrtlnd164

JMO but the IBO needs to start addressing the issues and soon. I have always said that these shoots have to be built from the ground up but will crumble from the top down. There has been a fairly large drop in the Pro class participation this year in the IBO. 70 or less combined shooters between the Pro, Senior Pro and Womens Pro divisions at all 3 of the triple crown. I would think if the numbers get too much lower there may be some contingency changes coming which may be followed by a drop in sponsorship dollars. It's not that they don't have a clue as to what changes they could look into, it's the same complaints after every shoot.


----------



## wpk

Alpha Burnt said:


> Yes, I have heard that it was pretty bad if you are talking about the Marengo shoot.


I am


----------



## Dartonman

I can only imagine running my business by responding "after" the complaints start rolling in 

Do any of the board members ever participate in these discussions? 

Wondering if they've expressed any concerns about the decrease in participation at the events


----------



## HardcoreArchery

If they just came on AT and addressed the problems that people mention they could fix a lot of it. I for one think they need to get more involved with setting/ running the triple crown instead of letting the host clubs do it. I have heard a lot of bad feedback targets way over max and targets so dark you could barely make them out. Some might disagree with me but to set targets so you could barely see them makes no sense to me, how does that prove who the better archer is? The more people that get pisses off the harder it is to bring it back. I have not seen enough changes (if any) for 2013 to make me think that they are trying if they care. If the IBO expected everyone to follow their rules then they need to start following the rules themselves 50 yds means 50 yds not 56!


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## 3D Pinwheeler

The board of directors is made up of some people from the host clubs, so this is involved as they get.


----------



## archerydude21

HardcoreArchery said:


> If they just came on AT and addressed the problems that people mention they could fix a lot of it. I for one think they need to get more involved with setting/ running the triple crown instead of letting the host clubs do it. I have heard a lot of bad feedback targets way over max and targets so dark you could barely make them out. Some might disagree with me but to set targets so you could barely see them makes no sense to me, how does that prove who the better archer is? The more people that get pisses off the harder it is to bring it back. I have not seen enough changes (if any) for 2013 to make me think that they are trying if they care. If the IBO expected everyone to follow their rules then they need to start following the rules themselves 50 yds means 50 yds not 56!


I agree. Is it OK if I run my setup at 4.5 grains per pound? Its approximately 5, right? Is it OK if I take 2:30 to shoot my arrows? Its pretty close right? 

They need to, not just make changes, but have a major attitude adjustment. If not they WILL continue their downward spiral.


----------



## GreggWNY

3D Pinwheeler said:


> The board of directors is made up of some people from the host clubs, so this is involved as they get.


And that seems to me to be an unethical conflict of interest. All members of the IBO B.O.D. who are also officers of the triple crown should either resign the IBO or the member club immediately.
Is it true that they recently put a member on the Board of Directors from the Cardinal Shooting Center (Marengo)?


----------



## archerydude21

GreggWNY said:


> And that seems to me to be an unethical conflict of interest. All members of the IBO B.O.D. who are also officers of the triple crown should either resign the IBO or the member club immediately.
> Is it true that they recently put a member on the Board of Directors from the Cardinal Shooting Center (Marengo)?


Correct. The owner. Dan I believe his name is.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

How do you think they hide all that money????


----------



## wpk

This is my last year for the IBO 
Going to save my money and hit a few more ASA's
And give regions a try


----------



## carlosii

3D Pinwheeler said:


> How do you think they hide all that money????


i don't know that they hide the money. the bedford club has a really nice club layout which they own including ranges (3d and field) club house and a lot of ground. the location of the triple crown event is not owned by the club. their club grounds are located elsewhere...or so i'm told...and, i'm told, they have lots of money in the bank.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

Well the IBO is not for profit, but that isn't saying the clubs that hold these shoots aren't.


----------



## Kstigall

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Well the IBO is not for profit, but that isn't saying the clubs that hold these shoots aren't.


and that is not to say that there aren't a fair number of folks making good amount from or through the IBO!


----------



## nochance

we're doing good, IBO is evil and ASA is great, only IBO continues to draw good #s. Do I think they are perfect? NO! Keep suggesting improvements. They do listen but sometimes slowly. As for ASA I know a lot of guys like them and I not faulting the org in any way but they have 7 pages on here of what they'd like to see in different in 2014. Regions, have heard nothing but positive comments about their shoots, I know they have had a slow start but hopefully the give it another year. Wish I had more time to shoot more shoots. I don't shoot a lot of the big shoots but even in NY at the states triple crown and smaller shoots around here they make every attempt to break up the group. I'll continue to shoot IBO if I am able, and I'd give Regions and ASA a try if it was feasible. Unfortunately Time and money is not an endless option for me. Shoot what you can, improve what you can, but have fun.


----------



## bsharkey

wpk said:


> This is my last year for the IBO
> Going to save my money and hit a few more ASA's
> And give regions a try


The wife and I gave up on the IBO last year. Shot our first ASA this year and we are hooked. Can't wait for next year.


----------



## wpk

bsharkey said:


> The wife and I gave up on the IBO last year. Shot our first ASA this year and we are hooked. Can't wait for next year.


I have been shooting the KY and the IL for the last couple of years and love them


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Are ASA regular shoots over for the year?


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Another question, exactly what are the rules on stabilizers in HC?


----------



## carlosii

Alpha Burnt said:


> Are ASA regular shoots over for the year?


the last shoot of the year is the Classic which is coming up the first weekend of august. you have to have qualified in order to shoot.


----------



## wpk

Hunter Class (HC) Only one stabilizer having a single point of attachment may be used. The stabilizer can be any shape or configuration as long as it is contained within a theoretical sphere having a radius of 12 inches measured from the point of attachment.
They have two rules in one 
They where Supposed to take out the first sentence


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Got back from the Worlds this am. I did see range officials patrolling courses, things appeared to be getting a little better. Maybe they really read this stuff?


----------



## trinibob

Seems to be a lot of names missing from the worlds scores in MBR,AHC ??? Looking like a bunch of people dident shoot that usually always shoot


----------



## Alpha Burnt

trinibob said:


> Seems to be a lot of names missing from the worlds scores in MBR,AHC ??? Looking like a bunch of people dident shoot that usually always shoot


Is the participation problem a decline in support associated with the IBO or a decline in participation because of interest in archery? Shame on organized archery if the first is true, if interest/newcomers participation is in decline, shame on each of us. If it is the economy, well, you cannot help that, times are tough.


----------



## carlosii

Alpha Burnt said:


> Is the participation problem a decline in support associated with the IBO or a decline in participation because of interest in archery? Shame on organized archery if the first is true, if interest/newcomers participation is in decline, shame on each of us. If it is the economy, well, you cannot help that, times are tough.


every ASA shoot this year had a healthy increase...the lowest numbers were for Paris and Gainesville.


----------



## archerydude21

I believe I heard ASA participation is up on average 15%. That should tell you its not the economy or archery participation in general.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

archerydude21 said:


> I believe I heard ASA participation is up on average 15%. That should tell you its not the economy or archery participation in general.


Good point. I happen to believe IF the economy was better there would be a whole lot more attendees in all of the shoots though.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Any news or talks of changes? Other than Ellicotville for the Worlds.


----------



## Tiny_MN

wpk said:


> Hunter Class (HC) Only one stabilizer having a single point of attachment may be used. The stabilizer can be any shape or configuration as long as it is contained within a theoretical sphere having a radius of 12 inches measured from the point of attachment.
> They have two rules in one
> They where Supposed to take out the first sentence


I don't see how that is two rules in one. IMO, HC should be a single stabilizer made up. No side bar, etc. If you want to shoot with them, open class is available. 

NFAA allows side bars in bowhunter freestyle. Yet, they don't allow for more than five pins. If you have more than five, you have to shoot open class against people with scopes, glass, etc. One of the griefs I have with them.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Tiny_MN said:


> I don't see how that is two rules in one. IMO, HC should be a single stabilizer made up. No side bar, etc. If you want to shoot with them, open class is available.
> 
> NFAA allows side bars in bowhunter freestyle. Yet, they don't allow for more than five pins. If you have more than five, you have to shoot open class against people with scopes, glass, etc. One of the griefs I have with them.


Plenty of them in use that I saw at the Worlds in HC.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

Tiny_MN said:


> I don't see how that is two rules in one. IMO, HC should be a single stabilizer made up. No side bar, etc. If you want to shoot with them, open class is available.
> 
> NFAA allows side bars in bowhunter freestyle. Yet, they don't allow for more than five pins. If you have more than five, you have to shoot open class against people with scopes, glass, etc. One of the griefs I have with them.


 I use a side bar for hunting should this be illegal? Side bars give a nice balance to todays front heavy bows, as well as side to side tipping that is easy to do with the shorter axel bows of today. I've hunted with a hinge for a few years, now with a thumb button haven't shot a deer with a wrist strap in 15 years. Maybe we should outlaw hinges in Hunter class. 
IMO they should call it Pins class, it's target archery nothing to do with hunting when your shooting 3D other than the target your shooting at.


----------



## Tiny_MN

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I use a side bar for hunting should this be illegal? Side bars give a nice balance to todays front heavy bows, as well as side to side tipping that is easy to do with the shorter axel bows of today. I've hunted with a hinge for a few years, now with a thumb button haven't shot a deer with a wrist strap in 15 years. Maybe we should outlaw hinges in Hunter class.
> IMO they should call it Pins class, it's target archery nothing to do with hunting when your shooting 3D other than the target your shooting at.


My point about side bars, and the NFAA rules, is that the additional two pins do not give anywhere near an advantage that the side bar does. Therefore, I believe that their rules are incorrect regarding the max number of pins being the determining factor of what class one can shoot in.

All depends upon where, what, why, etc you hunt. I've only seen very few hunting bows with any kind of side bar on them where I am at. The type of release doesn't matter unless you go finger tabs vs release, then it does. What you are basically proposing is removing classes entirely and let anyone/everyone shoot whatever they want. Perhaps we should allow crossbows then too?


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

ASA allows side bar, Nfaa also, why shouldn't IBO? Once again target archery not hunting. Still along way from an open setup. Shoot what the rules allow in your class.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

I can remember when IBO first began. Classes for men were MBR and MBF also PMR. Any setup only difference was release or fingers.


----------



## Tiny_MN

3D Pinwheeler said:


> ASA allows side bar, Nfaa also, why shouldn't IBO? Once again target archery not hunting. Still along way from an open setup. Shoot what the rules allow in your class.


Yes, in a sense it's "target". But, if the rules are designed to mimic hunting, then shouldn't it resemble hunting? If one organization decides to not allow something, why should it matter? Yes, I have my gripes about some rules. But, I also know what to do to allow myself to shoot in the class I want.


Personally, I'd like to see different kinds of shoots:

Accuracy + fastest time
Accuracy + silent stalking (noise decibel readings for score)
Extreme terrain

Just to name a few.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

"Mimic" a hunting setup not so much "mimic" hunting. It's an entry level "cheaper" setup to get guys into shooting 3D. I'd like to see a speed limit of 300 fps overall and 280fps in HC just to get yardage judging back to the front of 3D. Guy I shot with in MBR at World's this year was shooting 340 fps the rest of our group was around the 300 fps mark. 280 in HC would make you judge a lot more to hit 11's at least they have a move out rule with more substance than years back. 

I shoot 3D because I like to shoot my bow all year, the first item I grab in the tree is my rangefinder even though I can judge I want to know exactly what my perimeter yardage is before a deer comes by.

I do think shooting big 3D tournaments with the added pressures make shooting a big buck a lot easier because you deal with pressure shooting big shoots all summer. Shooting a big buck at 20 yards is much easier than putting together 40 shots to be in position to win IBO World's any day, IMO


----------



## Alpha Burnt

I believe at some point, there will have to be some changes in classes or format to keep it fresh.


----------



## wpk

Tiny_MN said:


> I don't see how that is two rules in one. IMO, HC should be a single stabilizer made up. No side bar, etc. If you want to shoot with them, open class is available.
> 
> NFAA allows side bars in bowhunter freestyle. Yet, they don't allow for more than five pins. If you have more than five, you have to shoot open class against people with scopes, glass, etc. One of the griefs I have with them.



I was not stating an opinion I was stating a fact
That was straight from the IBO they messed up when they wrote the rule
This is competitive archery not hunting its just the name of the class
And it's not about what you want or what you think it should be it's about what the rules say


----------



## Tiny_MN

wpk said:


> I was not stating an opinion I was stating a fact
> That was straight from the IBO they messed up when they wrote the rule


I was stating that I read it as one rule, not two. If it came from IBO, that's fine. Their rules as they wrote them.



> This is competitive archery not hunting its just the name of the class


Yes, it is competitive archery. However, the name of the class should reference what type of designation, etc. it's meant for. I'm not saying 3D should mimic hunting entirely. But, if it's HC, then it should be what's considered a "typical" hunter setup.



> And it's not about what you want or what you think it should be it's about what the rules say


So, if one doesn't agree with the rules, they should just STFU and not petition for changes in the rules. Guess that negates this, and any other thread where people are complaining.


----------



## wpk

Tiny_MN said:


> I was stating that I read it as one rule, not two. If it came from IBO, that's fine. Their rules as they wrote them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is competitive archery. However, the name of the class should reference what type of designation, etc. it's meant for. I'm not saying 3D should mimic hunting entirely. But, if it's HC, then it should be what's considered a "typical" hunter setup.
> 
> 
> 
> So, if one doesn't agree with the rules, they should just STFU and not petition for changes in the rules. Guess that negates this, and any other thread where people are complaining.


No it's people that complain about the rules and want them changed to suit them
Instead of just playing with in the rules that are written
It is Hunter equipment pins short stabilizers it's not like you're using broadheads
Just because it's not your definition of Hunter equipment doesn't mean you can't hunt with it


----------



## Tiny_MN

wpk said:


> No it's people that complain about the rules and want them changed to suit them
> Instead of just playing with in the rules that are written
> It is Hunter equipment pins short stabilizers it's not like you're using broadheads
> Just because it's not your definition of Hunter equipment doesn't mean you can't hunt with it


So, if the rules as written benefit you, then they're fine and you see no need to change them? I see...


----------



## wpk

How does a benefit me????
That makes no sense I just use what's written in the rules 
Everyone has the opportunity to use the same equipment there is no benefit to me
Can you use them? YES you can
Is anyone stopping you from using them? NO they are not


----------



## Tiny_MN

wpk said:


> No it's people that complain about the rules and want them changed to suit them
> Instead of just playing with in the rules that are written
> It is Hunter equipment pins short stabilizers it's not like you're using broadheads
> Just because it's not your definition of Hunter equipment doesn't mean you can't hunt with it





wpk said:


> How does a benefit me????
> That makes no sense I just use what's written in the rules


I was responding to your post above where you state people whom complain about the rules to suit them. In essence, you're making the statement that those whom request rules changes are doing so to benefit themselves. Whereas, on the flipside, if the current rules benefit you, you see no need to make a change to the rules. Where's the difference? 




> Everyone has the opportunity to use the same equipment there is no benefit to me
> Can you use them? YES you can
> Is anyone stopping you from using them? NO they are not


Do I use all of the equipment? No, out of choice. I'm not shooting against anyone but myself, as I shoot to continually improve my score and improve accuracy. Heck, I even shoot with a quiver on my bow, as that is how I hunt. Do I expect others to abide by my exact configuration? No, so long as it's legal with the rules. But, if I see a spot in the rules which make no sense to me, I question it for more information and may propose a rule change. That doesn't mean I'd propose it to suit me, nor benefit from it. Not everyone is out to change the rules for their own benefit.


----------



## wpk

My thing is people always want to change the rules 
Why 
And this rule in particular is a good rule 
You said you should with a quiver on your bow 
I would be willing to bet that if you shot a v bars on your bow with your quiver your bow would balance out a lot better
try it 
And then my question to you is what would changing the rule back do


----------



## wpk

Sorry it should have said 
you shoot not you should


----------



## Bigjim67

Haven't been on the 3D forum lately, now I know why...sounds like some of you guys need to get a new hobby............


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## Alpha Burnt

Bigjim67 said:


> Haven't been on the 3D forum lately, now I know why...sounds like some of you guys need to get a new hobby............


Not sure what you mean bigjim? Sick of the whole thread and think IBO is on the right track, do not desire to see any changes?


----------



## Grnmtn

here is an interesting question to think about... is shooting with a quiver on your bow in the hunter class really legal if you already have a stablizer on your bow?


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Grnmtn said:


> here is an interesting question to think about... is shooting with a quiver on your bow in the hunter class really legal if you already have a stablizer on your bow?


Good point. It must be legal, I have seen it in competition.


----------



## trinibob

Alpha Burnt said:


> Good point. It must be legal, I have seen it in competition.


just because you seen it doesn't mean its legal
I have seen shooters in HC class shooting with nibs doesn't change the rule regarding it. I think a quiver is a non stock item attached to the bow think that is covered in the rule book.?


----------



## Tiny_MN

Here are the 2013 rules for HC equipment. Page 13 of the rules:

http://ibo.net/pdf/2013/IBO_RULES_2013.pdf

_Hunter Class
C. Level Three—Entry Level Adult Classes—Trophy Awards-Monetary Awards (If Offered) At Random 1. Hunter Class (HC) A compound, recurve, or longbow shot with or without sights. A sight shall have fixed pins,cross hair, or circle style pins without lens or magnification. If circle style pins are used, all circles must be the same size. A sight may have a rear aperture (i.e., peep sight or fixed rifle type sight). Note rule change (III.C.6) concerning peep sights. Sights may not be adjusted after entering the shooting course. Arrows must have screw-in points and at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than two (2) inches long (measured minimum 1.75 inches). Only one stabilizer having a single point of attachment may be used. The stabilizer can be any shape or configuration as long as it is contained within a theoretical sphere having a radius of 12 inches measured from the point of attachment.
Additional Vbars, counter balances, or weighted attachments are prohibited. (For the purposes of this rule, any device adding length or weight to the stabilizer shall be considered part of the stabilizer and shall be subject to the 12-inch rule.)
Un-weighted vibration dampeners are not considered to be stabilizers; however, un-weighted vibration dampeners attached to the stabilizer are measured as a part of the stabilizer and are subject to the 12-inch rule above. Equipment in this class may be shot with finger tab, shooting glove or release. HC archers shoot from the yellow stake. Stabilizer must be inside a 12 ” radius from the point of attachment.

HF, FHC, MHC & SHC ALL REFER TO HC STANDARDS FOR EQUIPMENT_

Based upon those rules, no v-bars are allowed. However, if you have a stabilizer that has a dish or T-bar in the front, is allowed. Aside from Longbow (section 15), and Traditional (section 16), there are no mentions of quivers. In those two sections, they are worded as such: "_No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows_"

I see no section, nor notifications regarding updates to rules at this time regarding the statement made by wpk where IBO says it's two rules in one and they allow sidebars. If there is a rules addendum section, please let me know and I will change my stance. But, otherwise, the rules as stated do not allow side bars/v-bars. Nor do they prohibit the use of an attached quiver designed for holding arrows.


----------



## wpk

It does not matter what you think or the way you read it 
Call them they will tell you they are allowed 
Every one had them on ther bows at the triple.crown 
Did you not shoot any of the IBO's


----------



## wpk

12" radius from point of attachment 

That is a circle 12"---------> this way and 12<--------- that way


----------



## Tiny_MN

wpk said:


> It does not matter what you think or the way you read it
> Call them they will tell you they are allowed
> Every one had them on ther bows at the triple.crown
> Did you not shoot any of the IBO's


Do you know that "everyone" you saw wiht them were shooting in HC? Did you go and ask everyone you saw with them? Again, just because you saw them there doesn't make it legal.

If the IBO made changes to the rules, then why doesn't their online rules state it? You're the one claiming they are allowed, and that they have updated the rules. Please prove me wrong!


----------



## wpk

Yes I do just about every one in peers and that made the cut for worlds had them 
I used them all year 
My equment was checked several times this year 
So yes I do know they where in HC


----------



## darton3d

Tiny_MN said:


> Do you know that "everyone" you saw wiht them were shooting in HC? Did you go and ask everyone you saw with them? Again, just because you saw them there doesn't make it legal.
> 
> If the IBO made changes to the rules, then why doesn't their online rules state it? You're the one claiming they are allowed, and that they have updated the rules. Please prove me wrong!


You're beating a dead horse, this was discussed extensively earlier in the year. Side bars are legal in HC and AHC in the IBO. As long as there is only one point of attachment as stated in the rule. There cannot be any additional side bars or v-bars attached to a separate point. This was all clarified by Bryan Marcum, the IBO President! Were you actually at any of the IBO shoots?????


----------



## Tiny_MN

darton3d said:


> You're beating a dead horse, this was discussed extensively earlier in the year. Side bars are legal in HC and AHC in the IBO. As long as there is only one point of attachment as stated in the rule. There cannot be any additional side bars or v-bars attached to a separate point. This was all clarified by Bryan Marcum, the IBO President! Were you actually at any of the IBO shoots?????


No, I have not been to any IBO shoots this year. I had plans to, however they fell through due to life getting in the way. My point is that if the IBO makes changes to the rules, they need to do so on their website as well as clarifications at the shoots. Otherwise, if someone is only looking at the rules on the website, or in publication, they may setup their bow incorrectly for the class they intend to shoot.


----------



## darton3d

Tiny_MN said:


> No, I have not been to any IBO shoots this year. I had plans to, however they fell through due to life getting in the way. My point is that if the IBO makes changes to the rules, they need to do so on their website as well as clarifications at the shoots. Otherwise, if someone is only looking at the rules on the website, or in publication, they may setup their bow incorrectly for the class they intend to shoot.


People on this thread have been trying to help you understand the change and that the change was actually made. But you insist on arguing and challenging them. These people know what was changed because they were at the shoots. As you said, "they need to do so on their website and clarification at the shoots." That's what we're telling you, it was clarified at the shoots! You generally came off as saying no one else but you understands the rule. Sorry, but you did not understand the rule as it is written. The two key parts are the 12" radius sphere and only one point of attachment to the bow. Anything in addition to that one point of attachment to the bow is not allowed. You could have 18 bars pointing in every conceivable direction if you want. As long as the don't extend more than 12" in any direction from the point of attachment to the bow and have a single point of attachment to the bow. Hope that helps.


----------



## Tiny_MN

darton3d said:


> People on this thread have been trying to help you understand the change and that the change was actually made. But you insist on arguing and challenging them. These people know what was changed because they were at the shoots. As you said, "they need to do so on their website and clarification at the shoots." That's what we're telling you, it was clarified at the shoots! You generally came off as saying no one else but you understands the rule. Sorry, but you did not understand the rule as it is written. The two key parts are the 12" radius sphere and only one point of attachment to the bow. Anything in addition to that one point of attachment to the bow is not allowed. You could have 18 bars pointing in every conceivable direction if you want. As long as the don't extend more than 12" in any direction from the point of attachment to the bow and have a single point of attachment to the bow. Hope that helps.


Never once did I say I was the only correct person in the interpretation. Nor, was it ever implied. I was always questioning it, and making the statement that sidebars are typically counted as separate. I was asking for people to show me on the IBO site where the rules were changed/clarified so I knew. If the IBO only clarifies rules at a shoot, then they are doing a very crappy job in staying consistent and failing at exactly what people are claiming. Again, to be clear: *If the rules change, they must be updated both in an errata to the written rules as well as stated so at the events.* Why? Because there is nothing written down that can be shown as evidence the rules have changed. Verbal only causes far too many issues and confusion.


----------



## wpk

darton3d said:


> People on this thread have been trying to help you understand the change and that the change was actually made. But you insist on arguing and challenging them. These people know what was changed because they were at the shoots. As you said, "they need to do so on their website and clarification at the shoots." That's what we're telling you, it was clarified at the shoots! You generally came off as saying no one else but you understands the rule. Sorry, but you did not understand the rule as it is written. The two key parts are the 12" radius sphere and only one point of attachment to the bow. Anything in addition to that one point of attachment to the bow is not allowed. You could have 18 bars pointing in every conceivable direction if you want. As long as the don't extend more than 12" in any direction from the point of attachment to the bow and have a single point of attachment to the bow. Hope that helps.


Thank you .


----------



## darton3d

Tiny_MN said:


> Never once did I say I was the only correct person in the interpretation. Nor, was it ever implied. I was always questioning it, and making the statement that sidebars are typically counted as separate. I was asking for people to show me on the IBO site where the rules were changed/clarified so I knew. If the IBO only clarifies rules at a shoot, then they are doing a very crappy job in staying consistent and failing at exactly what people are claiming. Again, to be clear: *If the rules change, they must be updated both in an errata to the written rules as well as stated so at the events.* Why? Because there is nothing written down that can be shown as evidence the rules have changed. Verbal only causes far too many issues and confusion.


Well, it appears I'm not the only one who thought you were being that way. You said "prove me wrong", that sounds like you are being arrogant.
How can you state that " the rules must be updated both in errata to the written rules as well as stated so at the events"??? Who are you to mandate such things? It's the IBO, they do what they want. Maybe you should call Bryan Marcum and tell HIM what he HAS to do!


----------



## wpk

darton3d said:


> Well, it appears I'm not the only one who thought you were being that way. You said "prove me wrong", that sounds like you are being arrogant.
> How can you state that " the rules must be updated both in errata to the written rules as well as stated so at the events"??? Who are you to mandate such things? It's the IBO, they do what they want. Maybe you should call Bryan Marcum and tell HIM what he HAS to do!


And here is there # 440.967.2137


----------



## Tiny_MN

darton3d said:


> Well, it appears I'm not the only one who thought you were being that way. You said "prove me wrong", that sounds like you are being arrogant.
> How can you state that " the rules must be updated both in errata to the written rules as well as stated so at the events"??? Who are you to mandate such things? It's the IBO, they do what they want. Maybe you should call Bryan Marcum and tell HIM what he HAS to do!


Perhaps you should also take this up with others in this thread too then if you think I was being arrogant. I said prove me wrong to show me that I'm wrong, not as a defiant stance. Perhaps some of the others in this thread need to take a step back on their attitude as well. As to my statement regarding rules errata: If it's not written down, it's not enforceable. If you're playing for money, someone isn't aware of the rules change because it's not written down, it can go to court and be challenged. It's in the organization's best interest to protect themselves by taking small steps such as clearly and accurately documenting all rules changes.

And before anyone get this idea up their arse: no, I wouldn't sue based on something like that. I shoot for fun, it's not a career nor do I plan for it to be a money maker for me. Heck, I don't even like taking trophies/medals based upon rankings. As I said previously, I shoot according to the rules and if there is a rule that doesn't make sense, I inquire. If it still doesn't make sense, and there's a better way to do it or clarify or whatever I'll submit a rules change. Again, it's not to benefit myself only. It's for the benefit of the league/organization and it's members to have clearly defined and simple rules.

With the exception of the stabilizer rule, the rest of IBO rules are significantly simpler than NFAA. The more complex the rules, and classes, the more people get frustrated with organizations and they leave. Perhaps that is why it appears so many are complaining about the IBO rules in this and other threads.


----------



## darton3d

It is written down, you are reading it wrong, that's the point. But there is no use continuing.


----------



## 3D Pinwheeler

Its not their rules its the lack of enforcement of their rules.


----------



## wpk

Stabilizer. V-bar
<---------}}}BOW{{{---------->
|==12"=== BOW ===12"==|
THAT GIVES YOU 24"
It's in the very last sentence 12 inch radius
It has to fit in a theoretical sphere
That's how they check it .With a 12 inch piece of string
As long as it doesn't go past 12 inches in any direction from one point of attachment.


----------



## wpk

V-bars are allowed in HC as long as they do not stick out farther than 12" from the same attachment point as your stabilizer or stabilizer system. You cannot attach a stabilizer to the front of the bow and V-bars to the back, they have to be part of the same system attached to the bow in the same location.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Have a great day,

Bryan J. Marcum
IBO President

Just got this from him
Proved wrong
And in writing


----------



## hitman846

We need to keep this discussion on track and personal attacks will not be tolerated.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Thank you Hitman846, I believe this thread has been something of a help to alleviate or bring to light some of the problems with organized 3D and the IBO. I know people are reading it, heard people talking about it at the Worlds in August. Sometimes change is slow.


----------



## Alpha Burnt

Any changes in the IBO, has there been any recent meetings concerning rules and such?


----------



## PSE Ashley

Off topic, but did anyone get their winnings from worlds yet? It's been two and a half months and I've not heard anything yet.???


----------



## glennx

Do you have a phone?


----------



## bsharkey

PSE Ashley said:


> Off topic, but did anyone get their winnings from worlds yet? It's been two and a half months and I've not heard anything yet.???


Yet another reason to quit shooting IBO try ASA you won't be disappointed.


----------



## PSE Ashley

Yes I have a phone. I called them a month ago and they said the checks would be out soon. No actual time frame was given however. Just wondering if anyone else was still waiting or if maybe something happened to mine.


----------



## wpk

PSE Ashley said:


> Yes I have a phone. I called them a month ago and they said the checks would be out soon. No actual time frame was given however. Just wondering if anyone else was still waiting or if maybe something happened to mine.


Got mine a long time ago


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## RickT

Received mine begining of September.


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## darton3d

My wife got her check over a month ago. She got the IBO check before any of the others.


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## glennx

I got mine a while back.


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## Tiny_MN

Alpha Burnt said:


> Any changes in the IBO, has there been any recent meetings concerning rules and such?


Been a while since I've been in this thread. Here's the emails I had with Bryan a while back in mid-September. I'd venture a guess of mid-November before rules are semi-formalized?

_Hello,
I have a question regarding equipment rules for Hunter Class. What is the ruling on side/v-bars? There appears to be a lot of confusion.
Also, if there is any changes/errata to rules, where are they posted? I'm not finding anything if it exists.

Thank you,

Shawn _


* Shawn,

You are allowed to have side V-bars in HC as long as they do not stick out farther than 12" from the point of attachment to the bow. If you also have a front stabilizer the V-bars must have the same attachment point as the stabilizer making it a stabilizer system.

The rule is actually very simple in that we are measuring from the attachment point to the longest part of the stabilizer or stabilizer system to make sure it is 12" or less This measurement can be in any direction from the point of attachment.

The rule changes for 2014 are not finished yet. We typically revise our rule book in October and post the changes soon after the revision.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Have a great day,

Bryan J. Marcum
IBO President*

_Bryan,

Thank you for the reply. I was inquiring on the side/stabilizer bar as some places I shoot do not allow them and consider them to be secondary stabilizers even if at the same point of attachment. When I read the rule, I was thinking "any configuration" as being more along the lines of a front dish, t-bar out the front, etc. Not the side bars. Thank you for the clarification on it.

Regarding the rules addendum, it was more in regards to clarifications of current year's rules. Meaning, if there was a typo found, or a further clarification needed on a rule after the rulebook is printed and distributed, where and how are the erratas communicated? I was looking on ibo.net and couldn't find anywhere that such rule corrections might be. Someone had mentioned they get communicated at the shoots. However, if there is nothing in writing, it's difficult to enforce the rules as well as for those whom might not have attended a shoot yet to know about them.

Thank you again,

Shawn_

*Shawn,

Our rules are looked at each year with changes going through the rules committee. These rules are thoroughly discussed in committee and then entered in the rule book. The Word document of the rule book is then distributed to each director and office staff member to proof read before it goes to print. I don't ever remember having a typo or error but it is possible that it could happen. If an error is present it would be handled by the protest committee at an event if it caused a protest to occur. Otherwise, the error would not be corrected until the next printing.

We are currently working on a new website that gives us the capability to do mass emails to our members. We would use this option if there was a serious error that needed to be corrected or explained to our members.

Hope this sheds some light on the process for rule changes and proof reading

Have a great day,

Bryan J. Marcum
IBO President*


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## Alpha Burnt

Just checked, web page has not changed yet. Shoot schedule is up for the year though.


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## Alpha Burnt

Did Marcum mean they were going to change the entire webpage? Or do you know?


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## Tiny_MN

Alpha Burnt said:


> Did Marcum mean they were going to change the entire webpage? Or do you know?


I'm not sure. I was just out there looking for 2014 rules and didn't see anything. I'm building my bow for next year and want to be in compliance before shooting.


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## Alpha Burnt

Nothing changed on the web site yet.


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## Saltgrass Mike

Most of Texas shoots ASA. Now, I know why !! Good thread.


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## nochance

Saltgrass Mike said:


> Most of Texas shoots ASA. Now, I know why !! Good thread.


Or it could be because no big ibo shoots in that area? In, Pa , oh and NY are along drive from texas. Or maybe the guys that shoot ibo is because no asa shoots in the north east? Not knocking either org.


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## Tiny_MN

FYI: I received my IBO 2014 yearbook with new rules in it. HAven't read them yet due to lack of time...

2014 rules are posted here: http://www.ibo.net/pdf/2014/IBO RULES 2014.pdf


Looking at their Facebook page, I see the new rules were said to have been posted back on 11/20/2013...


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