# Tournament rules for 3d question



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Tournament rules for 3d question "POLL"*

We all feel rules should be followed. 

Why do some feel max. distance from ranges is not a rule that should be followed? We got rangefinders!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

if you're not going to follow the rules on max distance, why have the rules?


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## loomis77 (Jan 30, 2011)

Rules are rules...If there is a rule in place stating the max distance for targets, then this should be followed. When judging distances, I use the knowledge of max distance (not just of my peg either) to help judge. 

The comp organizers expect the shooters to play by the rules, so they should too.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

There are rules for reasons. Now most clubs around here don't go by any real rules, makes things aggravating when one club puts all targets inside of 40 and the next has some out to 60 or 70 but neither post a max yardage for classes.


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## retrieverfishin (Oct 18, 2010)

Maxes should be maxes. Why state it if you are not going to follow it?


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

i have never seen targets more than a couple yards off at a national shoot I have also seen a difference of a couple yards between rangefinders.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

treeman65 said:


> i have never seen targets more than a couple yards off at a national shoot I have also seen a difference of a couple yards between rangefinders.


You didnt shoot mnop at OHIO. 

I own Nikon and Leupold Rangefinders. There within a yard of each other. Now if you are talking about anything other than those 2 maybe. 3-5 yards past max is to much especially at a National event where some of us Drive more than 16 hrs and pay a $300 entry fee. Rules state not intended to exceed 50 yards. I promise you they did at OHIO. Yes we all had to shoot the same targets but not everyone had to lead the target. Knowing max is 50 I would never put 54 and aim center 11. Not smart if 50 is the max. 

Rules are set. Everyone should follow them including the organizations who are hosting the events. If not then they had no right to DQ the guy who had his range finders on the course. Rules are rules but everyone should follow them.
Jame


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

the comment of everyuone has to shoot it has been beaten to death and only shows that you dont know how to set up a 3D course, 2 yards maybe but no more than 2 yards imo


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I didn't vote because I think the right answer is somewhere in between. Here's how I see it.

Some targets should be set just beyond max. If a judger can only be "beaten" in one direction, he isn't going to get beaten much. As has been said many times on the other threads, "I knew it looked like max or more so I set it for 50 and shot a low 5." That same guy would've been fine if it was a hard line 50 yard max and IMO, he didn't deserve to be "fine". The shooters who shot it for what they judged won the tournament.

On the other hand, a club/org can't make practice of blowing max out of the water just due to customer satisfaction. We all know the ranges that get reputations for stretching targets just to stretch them... or as part of their "target preservation plan". That never helps attendance in the long run.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Jame said:


> You didnt shoot mnop at OHIO.
> 
> I own Nikon and Leupold Rangefinders. There within a yard of each other. Now if you are talking about anything other than those 2 maybe. 3-5 yards past max is to much especially at a National event where some of us Drive more than 16 hrs and pay a $300 entry fee. Rules state not intended to exceed 50 yards. I promise you they did at OHIO. Yes we all had to shoot the same targets but not everyone had to lead the target. Knowing max is 50 I would never put 54 and aim center 11. Not smart if 50 is the max.
> 
> ...


it doesnt matter the fact is someone is going to cry about something after everything shoot just because they didnt win.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

If I step up to the start and guess it at max and its not 50 but 54 or 55 and I shoot a 5 there is no way that is fair. Should I be able to have my bow shooting 292 or 293 for ASA, no its 289 period. So say 50yards +/-3% is fine, or make if very well known that 50 is just a guideline and that it will not be followed so expect targets out to 60


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Just something to think about.....Since many of the top guns claim that they can "judge" yardage to within 1/2 yard every time...what the heck is the BIG DEAL about the targets being over on distance..."they" still will 'judge them' more accurately than a laser rangefinder!!! The top gun "judgers" are within 1/2 yard...while the laser rangefinders are withing PLUS OR MINUS 1/2 yard....which means that the "top gun gurus" still have the ADVANTAGE over people with a laser-rangefinder....Of course, rangefinders are not allowed on the course (unless it is marked/known ASA).
Since everyone shoots the same targets, and the judgers are that close...there shouldn't be a problem if the targets happen to be placed 3-4 or maybe 5 yards beyond the "limit"...it is ALL about "judging yardage" isn't it? Nobody misses left and right...they just "Mis-judged" the yardage when the arrow went 12" to the left or right.

Just being facetious above. IF there is a "limit" on those yardages of 3%, then by golly...they should be within that limit and NOT beyond it. You have a 3% limit on your chronnie speed limits, and there is a limit on the yardages...so BOTH should be complied with...one by the SHOOTERS and the other by the Association hosting the event. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

BUT...if the targets are beyond the limits...and everyone shoots at them...then those that Judge the best and also have the best shot execution will rise to the occasion and "suck it up, buttercup."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> I didn't vote because I think the right answer is somewhere in between. Here's how I see it.
> 
> Some targets should be set just beyond max. If a judger can only be "beaten" in one direction, he isn't going to get beaten much. As has been said many times on the other threads, "I knew it looked like max or more so I set it for 50 and shot a low 5." That same guy would've been fine if it was a hard line 50 yard max and IMO, he didn't deserve to be "fine". The shooters who shot it for what they judged won the tournament.
> 
> On the other hand, a club/org can't make practice of blowing max out of the water just due to customer satisfaction. We all know the ranges that get reputations for stretching targets just to stretch them... or as part of their "target preservation plan". That never helps attendance in the long run.


I disagree with this, especially the part I marked in red. If the max yardage is wriiten at 50 for a given class, than that should be followed closely as possible. It IS NOT fair to those in the class to define amax yardage, then blatantly go past that. People know the max, it is a *written rule. It factors in to the shooters equation in determining yardage (at least some shooters).

This isn't a knock on you Tony, but I know you enjoy the Known Yardage class in ASA. What if you had to rely on the numbers ASA gave you on these courses. They give you a target and say it's 50 yards and it's really 55? I would feel that is unfair....wouldn't you?

I have never had a problem shooting a target over max yardage. At one of our state Triple Crowns this year, we had a wolf at 54-55 yards. I shot the target for 54. 3 others in my group shot it for less....from 49-52. It benefitted me, and I have seen targets set long too many times. 

Ashooter does not DESERVE to be decieved or lied to in order to reward another shooter who may guess yardage better or be more willing to shoot a target over the max. The max should be the max.*


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

S4 300-60 said:


> I disagree with this, especially the part I marked in red. If the max yardage is wriiten at 50 for a given class, than that should be followed closely as possible. It IS NOT fair to those in the class to define amax yardage, then blatantly go past that. People know the max, it is a *written rule. It factors in to the shooters equation in determining yardage (at least some shooters).
> 
> This isn't a knock on you Tony, but I know you enjoy the Known Yardage class in ASA. What if you had to rely on the numbers ASA gave you on these courses. They give you a target and say it's 50 yards and it's really 55? I would feel that is unfair....wouldn't you?
> 
> ...


*

Great! Then we'll disagree together. :wink:

It isn't a max yardage. It's an approximate. Now, the definintion of approximate is tough and I think it's the range setter/org's duty to stay within the spirit of the rule. 

I do currently shoot Known distance but I haven't always. In my past, I've been a very good judger and I promise, if I look at a target and think it's 54, and look again and still think its 54 based on everything I can see, I'm going to settle that number in my head, pick my spot and commit to making a good shot with my number. 3d is judging. On the range, my job is to post a score not interpret and fret over rules.

The numbers ASA gives you are irrelevant in Known. I don't set my sights or practice with their rangefinder. You'd laugh if you knew how many times I accuse my rangefinder and theirs of being liars and use my own number. In your comparison though, if I'm abiding by ASA's numbers, so is everyone else. So, yeah, its fair.

On your Triple Crowns, congratulations. You judged the target well, applied some past experience and common sense and won the target. 

Shooters do deserve to be decieved. It's the challenge you signed up for isn't it? Outjudge/outshoot/outsmart the competitor? Overcome adversity? Good range setters, set targets to beat the judgers. The really good ones don't have to set the course long to fool you and they realize they don't have to beat the pants off of you. They only need to beat you by a yard. 

When the max becomes a hard line in the sand, the judging game is cut in half. Just come join a Known class with me.... any idiot can do it.:wink:*


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

BTW, not saying there should be a "hard line". I am fine with saying 50 +3% variance or something like that.....but I have seen sets I consider outer limits. Just have a reasonable, defined limit if you are going to institue a "max yardage".


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

This is directly from the IBO rule book....

3. Targets shall be set at unmarked distances. The approximate* maximum distance for each stake shall be as follows:
a. Blue Stake: 50 yards (45.72 meters)
b. Green Stake: 45 yards (41.15 meters)
c. Red Stake: 40 yards (36.70 meters)
d. Yellow Stake: 35 yards (32 meters)
e. Orange Stake: 30 yards (27.43 meters)
f. White Stake: 25 yards (22.86 meters)
* Approximate distances have been added to allow the use of a laser range finder and to allow for inherent variations in their accuracy. Approximate distances are NOT intended to be an excuse to stretch target maximum distances.

My opinion is that most who set courses for state level and national level shoots know how to use a rangefinder. This includes being able to check on the rangefindes calibration as well.....I know some who set courses who will INTENTIONALLY set a target long......


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I guess posting in the other thread wasn't enough pot stirring for some people, they felt they needed a whole new one just to stir it up even more


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Supermag1 said:


> I guess posting in the other thread wasn't enough pot stirring for some people, they felt they needed a whole new one just to stir it up even more


You like Polls! Maybe you just don't like the results of polls. This sure got your stirred up. 
DB


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

I have no issue with long targets. It is rare to see one 3-4 yards over, but I think 1-2 yards keeps people honest. I did not vote because I need option 3. I have no problem with a target at 52 yards, but "5 or 8 yards over" is pushing it and outside of the rules 2 yards is not outside the rules as they are written (for IBO). 

ASA has put the Unlimited Class on the Semi Pro range for several years. They shoot the same range as Semi Pro, as well as the same stake. Semi Pro has a max 50 yards, and Unlimited has a max 45 yards.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I really don't understand why the targets are not within 1.5 yards of what is listed in the rule book as being the max distance for a class. It says setting targets at an "approximate" distance is NOT to be used to intentionally go beyond max distance.

I'm shooting Known this year but in years past I shot Hunter. I never really thought about whether a target was over max but then again I don't believe I've ever shot an IBO or ASA (national tournament) target that was set over max. Maybe it's a game the course setters only play with the 50 yard classes. In Known I don't care if they set them out to 70 yards as long as it isn't too windy.


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## rascal (Jul 13, 2004)

:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I think this issue needs to stay current. In today's economy, most shooters don't want to pay the expensive cost associated with attending a national event just to be jerked around by some smart ass clown trying to be cute by sitting targets over the max so they can laugh and s****** about people shooting 5s and 0s!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I understand maybe being a yard to 2 over.....but 5-8 no.... I will have to say though, out west they dont have the yardage max thing(mt/id/wa) ....But, you also know this going in.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Ok plan and simple.If you are a IBO OR ASA afiliated club you should run the shoot as the rules state no exceptions.If you have range masters who are incomptant. Than they should be relived of there dutys to hold up the integrity of the game.If there are *******es and Clowns running a sactioned shoot it compermises the game for its future.


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## Hallsway (Jan 16, 2009)

Maybe its the business man in me, but does anyone see this as an opportunity for a laser range finding company to step in as a sponsor. That way what ever sanctioning body of archery you are talking about, would have to say," all courses this weekend where set and ranged by XXXXX rangefinders, the most accurate in the industry." This way if you want to avoid variation between manufactures people who shoot competative archery would want to by those range finders.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

It should be followed to the "t". It is expected that there should not be a shot longer than a couple yards longer than the stated max (the most I think you will find between established brands). It is not like some people are turning in perfect scorecards and until that day comes, your shooters should not be thrown any additional curve balls. There are so many other ways to challenge a 3D shooter; shooting from dark to light, light to dark, taking away "ground yardage" with targets over a rise, shooting through tunnels of foliage, shooting between saplings, shooting from protected forest areas into fields with winds that are not visible, shooting in the rain and fog, shooting summer temperatures with high humidity and shooting at targets with no target backstop. Depending on how many days it took you to complete your shoot in Marengo OH at the very nice Cardinal Center, which brought this issue to light, you experienced all of these obstacles. This was a very, very challenging set at a very nice facility-and that is great- but the first shooters on the stake at the targets that were "stretched", for what ever reason, were at a crippling disadvantage. In that sense, it was not fair. Otherwise it was a truly great shoot.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

We already have that....Nikon is the officially used rangefider for asa


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## Gary Wiant (Dec 7, 2008)

They want the rules followed to the T but don't foolow their rules, no reason at all in the targets being set even 1.5 yds. long unless you are buying a junk rangefinder I don't see them being off that much I have 3 different brands of rangefinders and all read within .5 yds. to say they should be allowed to trick shooters long is a stupid commennt, there are ways of tricking a shooter by using the terrain and not making the targets outside of max. I shot HC and I set my pins according to the rules 35 yd max so my pins are at 22yds. and 33 yds, because I know I can put the bottom of my 33yd pin on the 11 and hit it, at the IBO shoot in OHIO I believe it was course D we had a whitetail way out for HC, I placed the bottom of the pin at the top of the insert and I hit a bottom of the 11, not sure how far it was bit I dropped about 6-7" from where I aimed, I know that is way more then 2 yards. I think the Cardinal Center did a great job with the shoot but IBO dropped the ball setting this course

I wish ASA would come north and have shoots in Ohio, New York, Pa, VA, & Indiana areas.


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## Droptine49 (Oct 21, 2011)

I personally don't like a "max" distance rule because I use that information. In my first year shooting 50 yard max, I have found that for me the hardest shots are the ones that are between 35 and 45 yards. If it looks much farther than that, I just shoot for 50 and am usually fairly close. If I didn't know that the max was 50 it would force me to become a better yardage judge out to 50+ yards. Now on those shots that are really close that have the potential to be "good" shots that are difficult to judge become much easier when you put the 50, 30, and 40 yard max pins together. I think that the max distances should be more of a set of "guidelines" that course setters follow, but in no way should every target be limited to that distance.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

J Whittington said:


> I think this issue needs to stay current. In today's economy, most shooters don't want to pay the expensive cost associated with attending a national event just to be jerked around by some smart ass clown trying to be cute by sitting targets over the max so they can laugh and s****** about people shooting 5s and 0s!


First off if you win one of these events it's not like you are going to get rich. Second I'm sure there is someone setting targets then sitting there laughing waiting for someone to miss or shoot a 5 that is ridiculous.when have you ever helped a club set targets oh I m sure I know that answer


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## f4yg (Aug 30, 2005)

I don't have a dog in this fight really as I'm just now getting more serious about target shooting instead of just being a bow hunter..I always believed rules should be followed by both the participants and the rule makers....Otherwise don't bother having any... Also today's rangefinders are pretty accurate so setting stakes shouldn't be a big issue unless they want to stretch the targets...How many officials walk and set target stakes? I really don't know so if someone could elaborate that would be good.

My take on this would be in the advanced classes it might not be as much of an issue being slightly over max yardage. For the less experienced guys it could be a bigger issue. We want to grow the sport not push guys away because maybe they had a bad experience on their first couple shoots. Expecting to be a certain max then finding out it was stretched out wouldn't be fun for most novice shooters. I could see them getting discouraged.. Maybe I'm wrong!

I'm not saying this because I'm fairly new to the sport. I just have fun shooting regardless of my score. Granted I like to do well, but I just enjoy being out there..

I don't see why someone wanting to follow the rules is considered a whiner like stated by some on the other thread on this subject. This is a forum for open discussion right?

Just my .02


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

The pole should have had a third option - _eliminate the rule_. If it gets called a rule, then it should be adhered to as any other rule. No rule should be disregarded.

However, I agree with those who have pointed out that giving a max yardage makes the game slightly less challenging when the target is close to the max distance. If 3D is intended to hone real world hunting skills, why not then simply eliminate any max distance, and adjust to classes through the use of the shooting position stakes? Otherwise, it's not truly unknown yardage - it's a known range of yardage. As long as everyone within a class is shooting at the same unknown distance - it'll be a true test of skill. 

Yes, a course with a few very long shots will bring down an individuals average score - but if that's what you are worried about, then it a matter of ego - not the game.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Didn't vote. Poll is worded wrong. Club should not be there. I go to a club shoot and I automatically know distance beyond sanctioned events may be there.

If I go to sanctioned event, max rule in play, I expect targets to be no more than the max. Not more than 2 yards longer.

Our club has hosted -3- ASA Qualifiers and -1-Championship. We used two range finders to make sure all stakes did not exceed the max. We never once had a complaint.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

what i see is this... the max yardage is say 50 with the 3% variance being to allow for the tolerances in a rangefinder. this does not mean the max yardage is 52 yards and then range... if someone sets for 52 yards and their rangefinder reads low, we are now out to 55 yards. if they look thru their rangefinder, they should see 50 and thats it.

the only way to be consistent is for the people setting up the range have identically calibrated rangefinders, or use just one single rangefinder for a final check of the stakes. if long, move the target in a few yards. if everyone is grabbing their own and setting a course for the "max" of +3%, there will be some stretched targets.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Everyone should just shoot known....or
field.

typed slowly and with many errors on this touchscreen.......


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## PAFD ARCHER (Jan 31, 2008)

Bucks said:


> what i see is this... the max yardage is say 50 with the 3% variance being to allow for the tolerances in a rangefinder. this does not mean the max yardage is 52 yards and then range... if someone sets for 52 yards and their rangefinder reads low, we are now out to 55 yards. if they look thru their rangefinder, they should see 50 and thats it.
> 
> the only way to be consistent is for the people setting up the range have identically calibrated rangefinders, or use just one single rangefinder for a final check of the stakes. if long, move the target in a few yards. if everyone is grabbing their own and setting a course for the "max" of +3%, there will be some stretched targets.


were in the ibo book does it say 3% allowance. it states that for cronographs and grain scales but no place in the book for yardage


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## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

The point should be, how many shooters did we loose at ohio because of target set. I have seen 1st hand, in the past, new shooters that get discouraged because of target-set, and have never came back. It wasn't all that long ago, that there was a thread, on what can we do to get shooters to move up. By making targets 4 yards over max, you are not following rules, and all it does is discourage new shooters....and some old. Some of us will show up and shoot no matter what the distance is. But we need to remember, that to make this sport grow, we need to encourage as many new shooters as we possibly can. I have said for years, that when you eliminate the volunteer, and install a businessman, when his next meal depends on the shooters, the sport will then grow. This is just my opinion.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Several points here, several have been mentioned, some have not.

1. For ASA, it says approximate. As in what someone the day the range was setup thought was 50 yards. Having said that, I do not see that problem at the National ASA shoots. Back when I shot Open A and it was a 50 yard max, if I judged a target for 50 I dialed in 52 and held on the 12.

2. 3% variance on yardages. There is no such animal, no such wording in the rules.

3. Yardages are not in the rules, they are under the Classes section, not the Class Rules Section. They define the classes, but are not part of the rules for the class. There is a technical difference difference.

IBO? Y'all have at it, not something I will ever do that again, so I am not familiare with their rulebook. Since the IBO office pretty much leaves it up to the local clubs to run and administrate the shoot, they turn out like a box of chocolates, you never know what you will get......according to Forrest's mom anyway.


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## Bowman991 (Jun 15, 2006)

Careful about calling Rangemasters names...if they don't set the targets...are you going to????? We don't post max's but we stay within reason....long shots get bigger targets...and I can take the ground away from you and make the best shooters scratch their heads....doesn't need to be long to be tough....and I don't set trash courses....


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## z3shooter (Nov 29, 2009)

well its been over week now since all this has been goin on about over max yardage i woulda thought just maybe someone from ibo may post their thoughts on this subject


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## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

what is the problem max is max nikon range is spot on just keep it to the limits to yall of you why doestnt this sport grow its not about the few here on at its about the many that could pa 225,000 regeiter bowhunter where are they there not here becuase sorry we are thefew


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

james, do you really want to start a mud slinging match with me? ive set a lot more targets and gotten them up than u thinK! 
this thread is not about that, its about the the IBO dropping the ball and not following their rules, intentionally setting targets the Max they stated, not us! read their rule, its pretty plain and straight forward.


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

ibo must be getting ready for the rinehart targets.we have a 2 to 3 yard margin of error in our rules. more than that is a joke. jerry has offered many times to help us set or take down range,we declined the help he lives 75 miles from the range. not once while you were living down here do i remember treeman helping or offering, but he could do alot of complaining.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

reylamb said:


> Several points here, several have been mentioned, some have not.
> 
> 1. For ASA, it says approximate. As in what someone the day the range was setup thought was 50 yards. Having said that, I do not see that problem at the National ASA shoots. Back when I shot Open A and it was a 50 yard max, if I judged a target for 50 I dialed in 52 and held on the 12.
> 
> ...


I belief Mike made a comment on yardage sometime back. Targets are set by a range finder, so approximate is pretty much nullified.


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## unks24 (Jul 6, 2012)

Will someone buy this guy a belt buckle??? I guess since he didnt win one now he has to blame it all on the IBO since tge target was too far. Learn how to shoot. Then start another thread about people who wont agree that you should automatically win because your target was too far out!!!!.:angry:


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

If I remember right back in the day IBO had no Maxs correct????


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

It was 60 yds when I first began!


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

unks24 said:


> Will someone buy this guy a belt buckle??? I guess since he didnt win one now he has to blame it all on the IBO since tge target was too far. Learn how to shoot. Then start another thread about people who wont agree that you should automatically win because your target was too far out!!!!.:angry:


Buy who a buckle?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

J Whittington said:


> Buy who a buckle?


Y'all can buy me one....my b day coming up soon


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