# Why are there so many Black Widow bows for sale in the Classifieds?



## JParanee

There's lots of them out there and people need money


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## nmlongbow

Black Widow makes more bows than any of the other customs so there are more out there to buy and sell.

BW's ususally sell faster too. I don't own one but they are the most well known custom and are good consistent bows with great customer service.


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## Archerybuff

Mine is on there because I just got back from the Black Widow factory. I shot 10-12 different bows while I was there and that kingwood PCH is calling my name, ha ha. No problem if I don't sell mine I like it just fine. If you guys are anywhere near nixa MO you owe it to yourself to stop in and check out the facility.


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## trentcur

Iluvatar........... this is hilarious, because I was wondering thhe exact same thing today I dont see nearly as many of the other more epensive recurves for sale that are just as big in name. I was also wondering because I was thinking of buying one as well.

So I will be curious to see what owners and owners past have to say regarding this topic. Feedback would be great for all of us that have never shot or owned a widow. Good thread, Ill be watching the posts. I think it would be good as well if those who have never owned/shot a widow leave the opionions to those who have..... this will be the most help to ignorants like myself


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## trentcur

My specific questions would be........... they look heavy in the riser area, any complains about weight? Also the short model recurves (one peice....), any stacking?

Thanks


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## sharpbroadhead

I have owned 3 Black Widows - a TF, an SA and a PSAX. They are nice bows and very well made - but I shoot my Tradtech Pinnacle with the Extreme BF limbs better and it is faster and can handle lighter arrows than the Widows. They are very heavy bows but no stacking with any that I have owned or shot.

I think that a lot of guys buy them and think that they will make them better shots - and when the magic wears off they sell them. 

I don't think that they are the biggest maker of trad bows, but I could be wrong. I suspect that Martin, Bear, and maybe even Bob Lee sell more bows than Black Widow.

overall - they are a good bow - but very pricey - for less money an ILF bow would be a better choice in my experience - I love mine - and sold all my Widows, but then I am a one bow kinda guy.


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## Okie1bow

I've been shooting BW's a long time. BW, IMHO, still makes the finest trad's. you can put your hands on. I still shoot a 89, 101, 200, 1200, 1225 and a couple others. Oh yes, did anyone notice the $'s asked [and usually] received for all those "for sale" listings? Find a bow brand that holds it's value better than a BW? Maybe a Bob Lee? Oh yes, I know, "but they are sooooo expensive in the first place"! Well, you get what you pay for. I hunt and shoot 3D every year with my BW 1200 H.B./ T.D. built in 1968. "sharpbroadhead" has a good point with his comment about "people think buying one will make them a better shot". He's correct there! That will not happen! That's why I love trad. shooting; if you really want to be good at it, you'll have to make the commitment and work on it!


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## MAC 11700

Okie1bow said:


> I've been shooting BW's a long time. BW, IMHO, still makes the finest trad's. you can put your hands on. I still shoot a 89, 101, 200, 1200, 1225 and a couple others. Oh yes, did anyone notice the $'s asked [and usually] received for all those "for sale" listings? Find a bow brand that holds it's value better than a BW? Maybe a Bob Lee? Oh yes, I know, "but they are sooooo expensive in the first place"! Well, you get what you pay for. I hunt and shoot 3D every year with my BW 1200 H.B./ T.D. built in 1968. "sharpbroadhead" has a good point with his comment about "people think buying one will make them a better shot". He's correct there! That will not happen! That's why I love trad. shooting; if you really want to be good at it, you'll have to make the commitment and work on it!


I'll respectfully disagree here with they won't make you a better shot...that is not always the case..for any new bow...If you get one that fits you better than the bow your shooting now..and you like it better...then your confidence in it is going to be much higher and there is a real good chance..you will shoot better than before...Would they make a top end shooter better...yes...in the same way..so...confidence has a great deal to do with how well we shoot...so...saying they arbitrarily won't make you a better shot...with out taking everything into consideration ..just isn't always the case..any good bow will do this...and the Widows are no exception...There's a lot of new guys will badly fitted bows...and some even over bowed..and some are damaged...the key is finding a Widow...or any new bow that fits the shooter...:wink::wink:

I owned one for a very brief time..but had to send it back to the fine gentleman I bought it from because of a issue with it..but..in that short time..I can see just how easy it would be to become a big fan of one..They are quiet..fast..basically dead in the hand..and beautiful...and no they aren't for everyone...mainly because of what they cost..which is why they sell so well when they come up on the market...Most guys who don't beat them up..and keep them pristine..can sell them pretty easily...which is a big draw for them..were as some of the others...don't do so well in reselling them ...and cost a lot themselves..

They are heavier than some..but...balance very nicely..and have little to no stack...They are the best to some who dearly love them...just as some guys who shoot some of the other makers of bows feel the same..My advise is if you are interested in one...try to find someone in your area that has one..or make the trip to Nixa Mo...and see what they have...You may not wind up with one...but...you won't know if you like them..till you have one in your hand and get to shoot it..They have a feel all none of the others has to me..

Mac


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## vabowdog

BW builds over 1000 bows a year which is a lot and they are good bows I have 3 right now that I shoot and hunt with.

Dewayne


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## daveparr

I have ma series bw bows. (5 limb sets, 2 risers) What I like best is they don't mess around with the limb mounting hardware. This allows me to buy another set of limbs and I can bolt them on my riser whether they are pre or post Cnc. The old limbs fit the new Cnc riser and shoot fine even if there is a little overhang. The reverse is also true with Cnc limbs fitting the old pre Cnc riser


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## Beendare

BW s with that forward handle do point well for me... And they are smooth.


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## woodpecker1

do they use thunderbird or fullerplast to finish or do they have there own stuff? always did like there fiish


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## JimPic

woodpecker1 said:


> do they use thunderbird or fullerplast to finish or do they have there own stuff? always did like there fiish


The Frost finish is a clear marine epoxy


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## Bigjono

It maybe that it's mostly hunters that buy these bows and they have a habit of getting them too heavy so after a while switch to something more manageable. I don't like the look feel or speed of Widows but for holding value there is non better.


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## FORESTGUMP

Bigjono said:


> It maybe that it's mostly hunters that buy these bows and they have a habit of getting them too heavy so after a while switch to something more manageable. I don't like the look feel or speed of Widows but for holding value there is non better.



I would think this would be very likely, and then there's the guy I know who has had one for many years that he never shoots. Said it just does not work for him but never tried to sell it. 
The problem with buying a bow you have never tried is that it just might not fit you for some reason or the other. I have shot some that I don't like and a couple that were perfect for me on the first shot. I think some people would buy a BW based on the name or percieved prestige in owning one. Then they find that 'right one' and dump the BW that really never was the right one for them.


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## Easykeeper

Bigjono said:


> *It maybe that it's mostly hunters that buy these bows and they have a habit of getting them too heavy* so after a while switch to something more manageable. I don't like the look feel or speed of Widows but for holding value there is non better.


I think this is a big part of it. Widows are a classic bow and while I can't comment on their shooting qualities (never had one myself) they definitely are a bow that many people dream of owning. It's really easy and quite understandable to think that if you are shooting a 70# compound like so many do that a 50-something pound Black Widow is just what you need to start with for a nice recurve, only to find out that for most people it's a pretty long road to proficiency with a stickbow and starting heavy isn't the way to go for most people.


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## mhlbdonny

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have owned 3 Black Widows - a TF, an SA and a PSAX. They are nice bows and very well made - but I shoot my Tradtech Pinnacle with the Extreme BF limbs better and it is faster and can handle lighter arrows than the Widows. They are very heavy bows but no stacking with any that I have owned or shot.
> 
> I think that a lot of guys buy them and think that they will make them better shots - and when the magic wears off they sell them.
> 
> I don't think that they are the biggest maker of trad bows, but I could be wrong. I suspect that Martin, Bear, and maybe even Bob Lee sell more bows than Black Widow.
> 
> overall - they are a good bow - but very pricey - for less money an ILF bow would be a better choice in my experience - I love mine - and sold all my Widows, but then I am a one bow kinda guy.


I'm glad you posted this. I also shoot a pinnacle 2 with sf premium carbon limbs as well as a couple sets of trad techs. I've owned widows and I don't think they compare, especially when you consider that you can have a riser and 3 or 4 sets of limbs for the same price or less. I wasn't gonna reply in fear of being flamed but you gave me courage lol. P.S. the Sebastian Flutes are amazing on this riser, 46#, 6 gpp, 29.5 draw, 218fps, smooth and quiet. I think that combo would void a widow warranty.


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## vabowdog

I own three widows right now with one more coming....I think they are as good of a custom bow as money can buy...I keep hearing that they are over priced and surely they are but BF extremes are $600 a new silveartip is $1200 a blackmail is at least $1000 even a Bob Lee is $850 and up....

Seems like about any quality bow nowadays is $750 

My widows shoot 190 fps at 9gpp no they won't withstand 5 gpp and 218 fps but I don't know many shooters that can handle a bow shooting 220 fps....I can't I guess everybody is just a much better shot than I am....


Dewayne


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## vulcan12

My widow shoots 185-187 with 10gpp. Black Widows are so smooth to draw, beautiful to look at, and a dream to shoot.

There are a ton of them out there, therefore you always find them for sale. Many widow shooters seem to buy a new one each year or two.

I cant wait until I can afford to get a BW Longbow.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2


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## JParanee

I have a Widow that has shot a lot of deer and some hogs 

One of my best bucks came from one and or hat I will never sell it 

It's just so dam heavy these days  I have 61 @ 69 # Iimbs for it


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## mhlbdonny

vabowdog said:


> I own three widows right now with one more coming....I think they are as good of a custom bow as money can buy...I keep hearing that they are over priced and surely they are but BF extremes are $600 a new silveartip is $1200 a blackmail is at least $1000 even a Bob Lee is $850 and up....
> 
> Seems like about any quality bow nowadays is $750
> 
> My widows shoot 190 fps at 9gpp no they won't withstand 5 gpp and 218 fps but I don't know many shooters that can handle a bow shooting 220 fps....I can't I guess everybody is just a much better shot than I am....
> 
> 
> Dewayne


 I'm not knocking Widows Dewayne, and I don't shoot my bows at 5 or 6 grains per pound, just had a young guy with a long draw chrono it to see if the claims are true. And they are. Two points I'd like to make. I Doubt that you would try that with your widow because they would not stand behind their warranty if it was made known what you had done. Tradtech will. and second, I don't understand how a bow can be called custom when they are all identical except for wood types, and all made on a patterning lathe.


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## Mo0se

vabowdog said:


> I own three widows right now with one more coming....I think they are as good of a custom bow as money can buy...I keep hearing that they are over priced and surely they are but BF extremes are $600 a new silveartip is $1200 a blackmail is at least $1000 even a Bob Lee is $850 and up....
> 
> Seems like about any quality bow nowadays is $750
> 
> My widows shoot 190 fps at 9gpp no they won't withstand 5 gpp and 218 fps but I don't know many shooters that can handle a bow shooting 220 fps....I can't I guess everybody is just a much better shot than I am....
> 
> 
> Dewayne


Not everyone knows speed isn't a contributing factor to accuracy.


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## mhlbdonny

Mo0se said:


> Not everyone knows speed isn't a contributing factor to accuracy.


I don't really think I need to explain myself to you, but, This is my 3d bow and I shoot it pretty well. When I hunt with a trad bow it is my take down wing 55# that I bought in 1970. It's not a speed bow with a 600 grain arrow but it goes far enough past the far side of a deer to kill em dead. when shooting 3d with the trad tech I use 420 grain arrows. You guys should check out the thread about favorite hunting bows. most are ilf setups and for good reason.


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## centershot

I think it has a lot to do with the name - has a bit of prestige to it. Many guys start out and want the 'best' or what sounds like the best, drop a bundle to do it, then decide they want something else or find that trad is not for them. One thing is for sure, they are expensive. Even the used stuff demands a premium. I have shot 3 different Widows and did not care for them - the grip feels strange to me and the ones I have shot were just cut to center, not past a bit like I prefer. They were pretty and I'd like to try one of their longbows some day, but not for $1000.


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## Mo0se

mhlbdonny said:


> I don't really think I need to explain myself to you, but, This is my 3d bow and I shoot it pretty well. When I hunt with a trad bow it is my take down wing 55# that I bought in 1970. It's not a speed bow with a 600 grain arrow but it goes far enough past the far side of a deer to kill em dead. when shooting 3d with the trad tech I use 420 grain arrows. You guys should check out the thread about favorite hunting bows. most are ilf setups and for good reason.


That was not the intent of my post...thanks for the tip.. I will look into ILF hunting setups. :thumbs_up


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## MotherLode

Only on this site which seems to have the least amount of serious trad posters and trad sponsers. Plus this site seems to attract alot of ILF shooters for what ever reason. I'm not posting this for good or bad , for or against. Just the way it is. 
The beauty of trad is to shoot what ever gets your cookie. Whether that be a Widow , something else, or ILF set up. My opinion on Widows even though I don't shoot one is that you can't go wrong with them if you choose one that fits you resonably well. 


(You guys should check out the thread about favorite hunting bows. most are ilf setups and for good reason.)


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## BarneySlayer

sharpbroadhead said:


> I am a one bow kinda guy.


There is some wisdom in that. I'd probably be a better shot with a favorite bow exclusively than I am bouncing around as I do, _especially_ when it comes to unmarked yardage, but even in executing the subtleties of consistent hand presssure, adapting to a specific holding weight regarding the fluidity of the release. I rationalize that there may be some benefit to cross training in the long run, though one of the best all around traditional shooters I've ever met generally shoots the same bow every time. Then again, another great shot I know, who's a demon in the speed round, loves to bounce back and forth among an immense collection, but then again, when it comes to open classes (events that are not hardware specific, like smoker rounds, speed rounds, action rounds), there always seems to be one bow he likes best. so... I draw no conclusions. But, i don't have the discipline, and I sometimes worry that my bows get lonely, or are in danger of getting low self esteem  Besides, I have no delusions of greatness. If I can improve, win once in awhile, and entertain myself and make new friends, I'm good with that


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## vabowdog

i dont know what the true meaning of a custom bow is???? 

i know Silvertips are considered custom.....so are Blacktail bows......so are border bows.....as are MOST of all the bows made today.....they alomost ALL come off of a CNC Machine....

PERSONALLY i WOULD NOT BUY A BOW THAT WASNT.....


The only Custom bowyer according to some of you guys would be ED SCOTT with OWL Bows........AM I WRONG???



Dewayne


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## AngelDeVille

because that's a lot of money sitting in the back of a closet when you lose interest in it...


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## bfisherman11

The OP was asking why there are a lot of BW’s in the classified. First I imagine it is the # of BW bows out there. They have been building bows since 1957 Not many can claim that. Also years ago guys were hung up on heavy draw weights. Now they might be getting older and need to drop in weight. I have 2 BW PSA's. One is my 3d/indoor target bow and the other is my hunting bow. I have killed quite a few animals with the BW. They are a fine bow and very durable. 
We all should know by now that a guy should shoot a bow before he buys so he knows it fits him. My 2-BW's won't ever be for sale unless I can't shoot at some point. I have had a couple I bought used but I knew when I bought them that they were more an investment and they were sold off. A BW holds it's value like no other bow I have bought or traded. If I see a good deal and think I can make a few bucks on a bow I do that. So far I have never come up short trading in used BW bows.

One last thing. I think too many people think there is some end all bow. I am sure there is for each of us but I am equally as sure that it is not the same bow for each of us. None of us are built exactly the same physically or personality wise. No wonder some guys like bow A and others like bow B...... 

I like BW but I respect ones right to disagree. Just hope everyone respects the BW owner to like what he likes. By the way, I also have a DAS and I like that too.

Shoot straight and I hope I contributed positively here.

Bill


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## grantmac

vabowdog said:


> i dont know what the true meaning of a custom bow is????
> 
> i know Silvertips are considered custom.....so are Blacktail bows......so are border bows.....as are MOST of all the bows made today.....they alomost ALL come off of a CNC Machine....
> 
> PERSONALLY i WOULD NOT BUY A BOW THAT WASNT.....
> 
> 
> The only Custom bowyer according to some of you guys would be ED SCOTT with OWL Bows........AM I WRONG???
> 
> 
> 
> Dewayne


With Border you can custom order just about anything so long as it will not harm the limbs. Different centershot, sight window height, plunger position, etc. So just a mite bit more custom then wood selection.
Likewise with Morrison.

-Grant


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## vabowdog

Most of the bowyers today have different bows that have different length sight windows...I know widow won't put a 3" window on a 64" bow...or a 6" window on a 54" bow some things are just not feasible...

I personally think they know more about building bows than I do so I just trust their judgemnet on what length sight window needs to be on a certain length bow.....


But point taken....you shoot what you like and I will do the same.....


Dewayne


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## BarneySlayer

grantmac said:


> With Border you can custom order just about anything so long as it will not harm the limbs. Different centershot, sight window height, plunger position, etc. So just a mite bit more custom then wood selection.
> Likewise with Morrison.
> 
> -Grant


It's be nice if I could have them custom CNC machine an aluminum riser, send it back for mods, etc. 

I love my Predator Velocity riser much overall. At first, didn't like the weight of it, too light. Few bolts and washers and an eraser installed for 'vibration dampening', and problem solved. I like the grip, though I'm interested in trying other options later.

Only issue I have with it, is I would like a different sight window, more like my phenolic/wood 'classic' riser. Of course, it's not ILF, but I can deal for now. I keep thinking... Bondo.. Repaint, home Camo spray. Sigh...


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## Hoyt

I wondered why so many show up in the classifieds also, but figured one thing is that they hold value good and don't have such a long wait to get another one built as do a lot of high end custom bows. Around two months or so vs a yr., along with getting your money out of it makes it more feasible to sell and try another one. They aren't so high price wise as far as other top end customs go either. I could have saved a pocketful of money on my last bow if I'd bought Black Widow.

Only owned one and that was in the early 70's..looking hard at the PTF 62" right now, it's the only model that really interests me..just wish they made it 64".


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## Golfbuddy45

mhlbdonny said:


> I don't understand how a bow can be called custom when they are all identical except for wood types, and all made on a patterning lathe.



I agree with you on that statement and not just about BW. All the big name brands like Martin and Bear also use the CNC machines and as you say they are all identical within each model they make. Just watch the videos they make on building their bows. Too me CUSTOM is something that was hand made of specific materials, woods, and pattern that the buyer specified for him/herself. 

GB45


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## vabowdog

I've bought 7 new widows in the last 3 years...I don't regret buying a one of them...even though I've lost money when I sold them....they do hold good value and are easy to sell..very few bows have the following that widow does.


I too wish they made a 66-70" one piece recurve for target shooting but such is life....


Dewayne


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## grantmac

vabowdog said:


> Most of the bowyers today have different bows that have different length sight windows...I know widow won't put a 3" window on a 64" bow...or a 6" window on a 54" bow some things are just not feasible...
> 
> I personally think they know more about building bows than I do so I just trust their judgemnet on what length sight window needs to be on a certain length bow.....
> Dewayne


Border will make you a sight window which is precisely your maximum gap, from either the shelf or plunger. They will copy a grip you send them. You can have it up to 5/16 past center. They will make it with the same geometry as a freestyle olympic riser, or with their own barebow specific geometry.

So there is custom, and then customized. Border is the former, BW is the latter.

-Grant


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## Mo0se

Well this one isn't in the classifieds...we took a half day off work and had a great time! My wife can shoot! 
View attachment 1577995


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## vabowdog

Grant.....Black Widow has been in business since 1957 and still producing 1000 bows a year...and you consider that to be the latter???

I know Border has been in since 1940 and produce 1000 bows a year too....I'm not knocking any co that old.....especially an American one........



Dewayne


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## bigtone1411

Moose, whats the specs on your wifes bow? I can't get mine to shoot but I have tried. I love my Widows.


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## Mo0se

bigtone1411 said:


> Moose, whats the specs on your wifes bow? I can't get mine to shoot but I have tried. I love my Widows.


Her bow is a PMA II, [email protected] limbs, 64".


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## Barry O'Regan

*Another possible reason to consider why many BW are for sale*



bfisherman11 said:


> The OP was asking why there are a lot of BW’s in the classified. First I imagine it is the # of BW bows out there. They have been building bows since 1957 Not many can claim that. Also years ago guys were hung up on heavy draw weights. Now they might be getting older and need to drop in weight. I have 2 BW PSA's. One is my 3d/indoor target bow and the other is my hunting bow. I have killed quite a few animals with the BW. They are a fine bow and very durable.
> We all should know by now that a guy should shoot a bow before he buys so he knows it fits him. My 2-BW's won't ever be for sale unless I can't shoot at some point. I have had a couple I bought used but I knew when I bought them that they were more an investment and they were sold off. A BW holds it's value like no other bow I have bought or traded. If I see a good deal and think I can make a few bucks on a bow I do that. So far I have never come up short trading in used BW bows.
> 
> One last thing. I think too many people think there is some end all bow. I am sure there is for each of us but I am equally as sure that it is not the same bow for each of us. None of us are built exactly the same physically or personality wise. No wonder some guys like bow A and others like bow B......
> 
> I like BW but I respect ones right to disagree. Just hope everyone respects the BW owner to like what he likes. By the way, I also have a DAS and I like that too.
> 
> Shoot straight and I hope I contributed positively here.
> 
> Bill


As a collector of Black Widows, one reason I have been told by sellers is they either purchased it second hand and realised they were overbowed or they are selling it to buy a newer model. The majority though as you will see when looking at the draw weight in the classifieds is the sellers felt the draw weight was too heavy for them. 

Black Widows are superb bows, many archers keep them for decades and if the original owner in his thirties bought a #60 Black Widow in 1990s is now approaching their mid 50s and may find a #50 pound draw weight is more to their liking as the speed between the two is secondary if you are an instinctive shooter.

I tell you Bill, you will be hard pressed to find a Black Widow from 40# to 50# draw weight for sale in any classified. Hence on reason why the higher poundage bows seem to be quite plentiful. BTW I have more BW than I have socks, and I have a lot of socks.

In ending if you are not put off by the higher poundage widows and can handle the higher draw weight, then fill your boots. If you are in your forties and fifties maybe go to a 50# draw weight, as it will be an easy sell in the future if you decide to upgrade to a newer BW. 

You can also find used BW for sale at the Widow Wall, and ask Roger at Black Widow what is best for you, include your height, weight, age, draw length, high, low wrist etc, bowhunter, stalk or tree stand shooter or 3d shooter, which will let them suggest your riser, sight window and limb length. Trust me, you will not be disappointed in your purchase.


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## Barry O'Regan

vabowdog said:


> I've bought 7 new widows in the last 3 years...I don't regret buying a one of them...even though I've lost money when I sold them....they do hold good value and are easy to sell..very few bows have the following that widow does.
> 
> 
> I too wish they made a 66-70" one piece recurve for target shooting but such is life....
> 
> Dewayne


Of course there are Black Widow bows in that configuration, I have quite a few 66-68" BW Recurves! Just know they are vintage 1960s -1970s and shoot just as well as any modern bow today, just don't use fast flight or arrows less than 8 grains a pound and you will be all set. As a collector though it will be a cold day in Hades before I ever sell any bow in my collection.


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## Barry O'Regan

trentcur said:


> My specific questions would be........... they look heavy in the riser area, any complains about weight? Also the short model recurves (one peice....), any stacking?
> 
> Thanks


That is the beauty of Black Widows and most higher end recurve bows is they rarely have stacking issues (of course you have to realize that a long draw length over 28"and a short limb bow is not recommended by any bow manufacture). The majority of shooters, including some with longer draw lengths can easily shoot at 28 inches. High end bows such as Bear, Lees and others are comparable to Black Widows both in quality and shootability.

As for the riser being heavy, Hmmm maybe a tad more, but know I shoot my newer Black Widows without a hunting stabilizer. Why? Because with the heavier riser I do not need one.


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## jd commander

Yeah but tradtech looks like crap when compared to BW. And second No traditional archer is going to shoot anywhere near five grains per pound So your argument is irrelevant, just saying


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## Bigjono

jd commander said:


> Yeah but tradtech looks like crap when compared to BW. And second No traditional archer is going to shoot anywhere near five grains per pound So your argument is irrelevant, just saying


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just saying.
Why would no "Trad" archer shoot 5gpp, I shoot 6gpp.


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## Arrowwood

> And second No traditional archer is going to shoot anywhere near five grains per pound


I guess that should say "no BW shooter can shoot anywhere near five grains per pound without voiding the warranty".


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## grantmac

I shoot 6.5gpp, but then again I'm not very "Trad" either. There are bows which look better than a BW and will let you shoot low GPP, probably because they have actually updated their limb design and construction since the 70s.

-Grant


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## kegan

jd commander said:


> Yeah but tradtech looks like crap when compared to BW. And second No traditional archer is going to shoot anywhere near five grains per pound So your argument is irrelevant, just saying



I find ILF bows much more aesthetically pleasing than any BW bow though.


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## reddogge

What I want to know is when you mention Black Widow everyone says "Great shooting bow" but when you mention a Hoyt Buffalo everyone says "It's not ILF so you can't switch limbs cheaply", at least that is what I've heard on every Buffalo thread for the last two years like a broken record by the same people. You can't on a Widow either so why don't they say that about a Widow? What's another set of Widow limbs going for these days, $700 or more?


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## vulcan12

There is a long list of takedown bows that don't except ilf, so black widow has nothing to do with it. And yes, they are excellent shooting bows.

Buffalos and Widows are apples and oranges.

Buffalos are more like ilf bows, only difference is they don't accept ilf limbs. Buffalos are decent bows if that is what you are looking for. 

If you are shopping buffalos, some recommend an ilf like a Sky or something just because there are more options.



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## kegan

reddogge said:


> What I want to know is when you mention Black Widow everyone says "Great shooting bow" but when you mention a Hoyt Buffalo everyone says "It's not ILF so you can't switch limbs cheaply", at least that is what I've heard on every Buffalo thread for the last two years like a broken record by the same people. You can't on a Widow either so why don't they say that about a Widow? What's another set of Widow limbs going for these days, $700 or more?


You know, I never realized that, but that's true! Very good point!


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## LongStick64

Black Widows are probably the safest investment you can make in the Traditional Bow category. 
No one will deny they
1. Have a large following
2. Made extremely well
3. Have a variety of styles to suit
4. They perform near the top compared to other makes.

But the bottom line is of the bow does not work with you, it does not matter how well it is made. I have gone through 3 Widows finally settling on a PA. I tried a PSA and a PSR, both were excellent bows but I just couldn't get comfortable, but with the PA I am shooting extremely well. What's that show is that to generalize and put all of the BW bows in the same generalization is not an accurate assessment. They have 8 different models and they sell probably more bows than anyone else so it only follows that there will be more of them listed in the classified ads. If you are looking to see if there is something wrong with the bow and that is why they are being sold, you are barking up the wrong tree. Look at the other bows for sale, many of them are mint condition bows being sold for half the original cost, that should tell you something in comparison.


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## kegan

Longstick, I would never argue that Black Widows AREN'T good bows, but I have to agree with several of the other posters on one big thing: I do not think a couple fps are worth the huge price tags associated with them. There are just too many great bows available these days. I mean, it really is a great time to be a traditional archer 

No animosity towards them, but if I were buying I just wouldn't be looking to spend that much. Which would be possible because we're lucky enough to have a vast number of available bows out there!


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## MGF

I always liked BW bows but not enough to spend that much money.

Back in the early 90's a guy at the club got one and was selling his old long bow. I bought his old bow for next to nothing and went on to beat his new BW in several 3-d shoots with his old bow. LOL


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## LongStick64

Kegan
Then you are only focusing on performance, how about craftsmanship ? there is no question that they build Solidly built bows. These bow are made extremely well. I have not come across any made better and I have gone through many. From any I owned or handled, I have never found a flaw. They are CNC made, sure that takes away from the "handmade" aspect but that is why they are advertised as precision made. That is what you are paying for. The performance at the very least means that the design works as advertised, not many can make that claim across all of their models and designs.
I've gone through many bows, take Morrison, just as expensive if not more, very sexy bows and great performers but for every one of them I had an issue, switching between limbs I could see the differences, not on a Widow. I had the same issue with Zipper, great bows but I could see differences between limb fit to riser. Not game breakers but both Zipper and Morrison are priced as much as a BW, but from my experience the Widows were made as advertised.


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## LongStick64

Kegan
I would also suggest you take a look at how BW makes their risers. I know you make bows as well, as a bowyer you would have to admit that if you decided to make recurves and make the risers as BW does you would need to raise your prices to cover the labor and cost. You make a bows at a very attractive price, that's your market. BW cant compete with you at your price point. But could you as a businessman compete with them if you used their method on making the bow ?


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## JParanee

I love widows 

My first jump from the Bears and other bows I had as a kid was a Brakenbury but my first bow that I ordered for myself to my weight specs was a Widow 

I shot a lot of game with that bow and I still have it with both sets of limbs 61 & 69 #'s

All I wanted back than was a Widow  

Then I got into 1 piece recurves and that was my thing.

Fedora 560's was the bow I hunted with then and that lasted for many years 

Now I'm into ILF Rigs. It's all passing phases for me but I keep getting drawn back to the graceful lines of a fine one piece. Especially this one piece Silver Tip that is on my rack  

Widow was and is the gold standard for some folks, and that's great they are wonderful bows and the reason you see a lot of them on the classifieds is because a lot have been made and what and its already been mentioned in this thread is that a lot of bows where ordered back in the day and today to heavy and people can't shoot them well so they are selling them off to go lighter

As mentioned earlier not many mod weight Widows on the market, they get snatched up quickly


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## jasboj

I believe they are good bows but they have WAY to much hype with the name. They are a work of art but for me there are better choices out there. People buy them expecting a miracle bow and then they find out its just another nice bow but heavier and they sell it because its not what they expected. Jmo!


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## LongStick64

So let's put this in perspective
Black Widow PCH $1220 entire bow vs Bob Morrison Cheyenne limbs only $885.00 Riser $585.00, and BW has way too much hype ?


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## grantmac

For that much you could get into a real custom with more performance, a Border Black Douglas. Or for less you could get a Dryad, also an awesome bow.

I just don't see where the dollars are going when a bow is made from engineered laminates and shaped via CNC. At that point just get something mass produced.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF

I personally can careless about whether a recurve is mass produced, shaped by a CNC or hand-made.

I'm more concerned about the end product...NOT how it was made.

Now...if I'm wanting a replica Cherokee selfbow or Sioux short sinew backed horse bow... than I'm concerned about it's creation process.

I love the design of the double horn handle of Black Widow bows and the reputation and customer service that proceeds them.

I just wish they were even more custom like Acadian Woods bows are.

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Mo0se

LongStick64 said:


> So let's put this in perspective
> Black Widow PCH $1220 entire bow vs Bob Morrison Cheyenne limbs only $885.00 Riser $585.00, and BW has way too much hype ?


The PCH is $1010.00 just saying.


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## Mo0se

grantmac said:


> For that much you could get into a real custom with more performance, a Border Black Douglas. Or for less you could get a Dryad, also an awesome bow.
> 
> I just don't see where the dollars are going when a bow is made from engineered laminates and shaped via CNC. At that point just get something mass produced.
> 
> -Grant


All limbs are from engineered laminates..I guess you hate those too. Shaped via CNC provides consistency which is also bad.  If you think for a minute that any bowyer including Border, and Dryad don't use shaping jigs and limb molds you are mistaken. All the CNC machined aluminum risers are also mass produced regardless of brand. In reality of you spend $1K on a bow you expect a certain level of performance, which you get with all brands mentioned, including BW. Immediate customer service in the US is not such a bad thing either. There are people on here who have no problems at all winning top level competitions (ASA and IBO) with an "aged" design and geometry in a class that allows stabs and elevated rests shooting off the shelf....must not be too bad to be born on a CNC.


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## Hoyt

I just ordered a Black Widow PTF-X about a wk ago. I will have $20.00 less in it than I did my last custom bow. One reason I went with Black Widow (besides liking the looks of the PTF) is they are CNC machined and I know pretty much what to expect for my money. It's still being built with matierials I requested for the look I want.

I don't know what else could be customized besides colors, finish, materials, grip, draw length, bow length, poundage, physical weight of bow, tillering? 

I read on their forum where a guy in Fl. won the ASA with a Black Widow..said he only saw two other shooters using wood bows.


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## Mo0se

Hoyt said:


> I just ordered a Black Widow PTF-X about a wk ago. I will have $20.00 less in it than I did my last custom bow. One reason I went with Black Widow (besides liking the looks of the PTF) is they are CNC machined and I know pretty much what to expect for my money. It's still being built with matierials I requested for the look I want.
> 
> I don't know what else could be customized besides colors, finish, materials, grip, draw length, bow length, poundage, physical weight of bow, tillering?
> 
> I read on their forum where a guy in Fl. won the ASA with a Black Widow..said he only saw two other shooters using wood bows.


That guy who won is on the forum


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## grantmac

Actually my Border Hex5w limbs use a set of book-matched maple cores. They use the exact same laminates and design as was used to smash a world flight record. More importantly they have been replaced by a limb with even more performance, which has since ALSO been replaced by another. Border is the exact counter to BW simply because they never look at a product as say that it cannot be improved or changed to better suit individual the customer.

Call up BW and try to order something "off the menu", like for instance a completely different grip, sight window or center shot.

IBO and ASA Trad 3D isn't exactly a good measure of bow performance, I think you'd find the best shooters could show-up with a $150 Samick and still win. The performance is in the arrows and technique.

I'm not (and haven't been) saying that BW makes a BAD bow. It's just not exactly on the cutting edge of anything and hasn't been for a long time; including value, looks and performance. I guess I just don't like paying huge prices for something which doesn't have that much value beyond brand loyalty.

-Grant


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## BLACK WOLF

Hoyt said:


> I don't know what else could be customized besides colors, finish, materials, grip, draw length, bow length, poundage, physical weight of bow, tillering?


Research Acadian Woods bows...and you'll discover other custom options.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF

Black Widow is obviously doing something right.

A company doesn't get as successful as Black Widow has by just building bows for brand loyal customers only. They must pick up new customers and continue to pick up new customers to continue to be as successful.

There's obviously more value to Black Widow bows than just brand loyalty.

Ray :shade:



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## LongStick64

Grant I will agree with you as compared to Border which is always trying to improve performance, BW pales in comparison and possibly so does everyone else in comparison. But considering how well a BW is made I disagree with you on your value statement by a longshot. Explain to us how they are not at the very least an extremely dependable bow made extremely well. Looks are a personal matter, but brand loyalty comes with a solid product with a proven track record.


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## grantmac

They aren't a bad bow or poorly made. I just dislike paying premium prices on a product which hasn't had any serious R&D since the 70s. Especially when there are other options which are better looking, better performing and produced by hand to actual custom specifications available.
To me ordering a BW is a bit like buying a car. You can buy one off the lot or you can spec what options you wish. But you can't ring up the factory and tell them you want the interior from one, engine from another and suspension from their racecar.
Buying a Border is like getting a custom or racecar built for you. You can get the seat you want, controls moved, suspension spec'd for your home track. Whatever you can dream up.
All for about the same price.

-Grant


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## JParanee

I see Grants point 

Performance wise Widows are dated 

The Widow I bought 20 + years ago performance wise is the same bow you get today 

I have an ILF rig here that has BF's on it that @ 54 pounds is much faster than my Widow that is 8 pounds heavier 

I just set up a rig (Borders) that is the same weight that literally blows my Widow away 

Now people say that is all in FPS and yes Dwayne with his Widow would spank me around a course but Dwayne could spank me with any bow  

I am a Widow owner and I will never sell mine because it is a great bow and has killed a lot of game for me but if someone said hey can you recommend a high performance recurve to me a Widow would not be in the conversation 

When it comes to all out performance , smoothness and price a Widow can be bested pretty easily


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## bdeal

Nice bows for sure, but definitely very over rated IMO


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## BLACK WOLF

If I had to choose a bow company to make my next bow or set of limbs....I wouldn't hesitate with Border Archery being my first choice...hands down #1, IMO :wink: :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:

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## Easykeeper

I think this question needs an un-biased and totally objective opinion. I will volunteer.

Somebody please send my either a PSA or one of the TD recurves Preferably with a cocobolo riser, olive limbs, and no red lams in the riser, although I'm not picky. Let me keep it for the summer and I will do my best to find out everything I can about it's shooting characteristics and report back in the fall.

I have several nice recurves of my own for comparison and promise to take good care of it while it's in my possession. In fact, through in a Border and I'll really be able to do it right..:archer:...:eyebrows:


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## Mo0se

I wouldn't call 196 fps at 10 gpp dated..but that's just me. There is also feel, at the grip and at the string full draw. Maybe I'm spoiled but the longer working limb design and shorter riser of our particular 64" Widow PMA feels incredible. It feels way better than my DAS in terms of draw curve. Bottom line is that 70's design is not exactly 40 years behind the performance of any bow. That I've owned anyway. IBO and ASA are real in the US come one down and play if you think there is no standard.  The ASA is way more lenient than the IBO as far as equipment is concerned. No doubt it depends on the shooter, but I can guarantee you the guy that just won in Alabama has nothing but confidence in his equipment. Competing against ANY recurve with a stab and elevated rest, including Best, Border, Hoyt, Win and Win and still coming out on top shooting off the shelf on 70's design says something. I don't agree that the design has been unchanged for 40+ years either. That's an assumption.. without proper investigation.


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## JimPic

Just for the record, Border and Morrison both use CNC on some of their risers and limbs...as I bet quite a few other bowyers do


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## Mo0se

I don't agree that the design has been unchanged for 40+ years either, if you are at all familiar with the history of the company and the many design changes that have occurred.

I also have some real world testing in regards to arrows, I've shot the high dollar Eastons, Gold Tips, Carbon Express, at NFAA targets in a controlled environment. (Also on 3D courses) All those arrows boasting a .001 straightness and some within 2 gr. in weight and spine tested. I found I didn't score any better with any of those high dollar arrows than I did with the low dollar GT Entrada at a lousy .006 straightness. I also agree and have always known it's the person behind the string that makes the difference. But you cannot undermine the importance of confidence in ones equipment. Speed is second to stability and DFC to avoid stacking luckily it's a side effect. It's not exactly new rocket science to produce a limb that is lighter in mass weight that retains the same stored energy, which equals greater energy transfer to the arrow. But with every positive there is a negative, as it pertains to performance, and that can manifest itself in noise and limb life durability. 

Technique is a human variable that is too much to cover, i.e. sequences, stance, anchor, aiming or lack thereof, release, follow through, distance estimation, mental toughness/exposure in competition, and the list goes on. I'm simply and politely disagreeing with assumptions.  There are durability problems chasing speed, but nobody ever wants to admit that. MY DAS limbs are warranted to 5 gpp..big deal...it doesn't equate to more accuracy.

I guess I think differently than most..I wouldn't call $1000 for something that can very well last you your lifetime a bad value?


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## vulcan12

Here's why you don't do your shopping based on internet forums. People sometimes get misinformed. 

Black Widow does custom orders. They have a nice menu, but you do not have to order off of it. 

Grant, there are more options, like whatever grip you want for example.

Not saying they are better than Border, don't care really. Just make sure we all state facts


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## jasboj

I wasn't trying to take away from black widow by saying its too much hype. I was just meaning from my experience they are just another nice bow. Not anything that's going to make you a instant great shooter. I think people who have never had a black widow order one thinking it will be the greatest thing since sliced bread and then find out its just another quality bow and sell it to try and find that "magic bow" that to my knowledge doesn't exists.


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## vabowdog

I will still stand behind my USA made bows....no they ain't nothing special I never said they was but they sure know how to compete against the best of the best in the IBO and the ASA...being made for almost 60 years can't be all wrong....I've owned almost every bow on the market today and NOBODY has better customer service than BW....call one of the non USA made bowyers and see how long it would take them to get one of their bows through customs...the last one I bought sat in customs for 7 days coated me $38 and right now have a bill on my desk for another $18.00....and that's just a riser of $600 plus shipping and customs....but BW costs too much???

Grant,come look at any of my BWs and tell me they are plywood...some of the nicest wood you'll ever see...from anyone.


Dewayne Martin
IBO World Champion 
ASA World Champion.....all while shooting my Widow.


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## uabdave

Shot one at the Tannehill Pre Spring Fling last year... wasnt impressed, then shot a Bob Lee, same poundage and length, same arrow... let's just say it took every fiber of my being not to leave with a new Bob Lee. Faster, smoother, less hand shock and QUIETER than the Widow. In fact a guy who really wanted a Widow was walking by the range and had a conversation with a guy behind me. I picked up the Widow, shot... then the Lee, shot. He broke away from his conversation and came over wanting to ask if something was wrong with the Widow bc it was so dang loud. Then he shot both, went home with the Lee I was test shooting.

Just sayin'


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## kegan

Longstick,

I can't deny that I really didn't look at it from that perspective. If you're NOT buying the bow for its performance, then I know exactly where the money goes- they have a large shop, high quality materials, and full time staff. If I were to quit or get maimed or run over by a truck, that's it, no more Omegas. With Black Widow that's not the case. They have very tight quality control and use top end materials. If I tried to do the same with my own, I could probably sell a little cheaper than they do... but then you still wouldn't get a multi-life time warranty like you can with Widow. The Omega would die with me, unfortunately.

I suppose my only objection is someone buying them for their "proven performance". I'm sorry, but Moose is the only person I've seen posting speeds that high with a Widow. Most of the time they're just a few fps faster than other bows, if that. For a hunting bow, I don't see the reason for putting that kind of money into any bow. However, if you're looking at getting one for reasons other than the performance, I really have nothing to say about them either way. The quality is there, so the price is there. Plain and simple.

I guess you're right, my real objection is just to the assumptions about their superior performance.


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## LongStick64

If you have questions on performance of a Widow as compared to an ILF or any other top bow, look in Bowreports.com and you'll see the performance is there.


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## vabowdog

Ive owned ALOT of different bows,ILFs too and I can t see much difference in any of them....however I've never owned or even shot a Border...I hear they are fast and stable...but there's more to a great bow than speed...and the shooter has got to be able to control the speed...to me I like a 3-D bow about 185 to 195 seems to be under control.


Dewayne


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## benofthehood

for me , bow performance also equals how it feels at the shot , how much it "suits" me ...I have had plenty of fast bows that I didn't get with , a bunch of mid range performers that I Love because I shoot them well .



Lottsa great bows around these days ..... a truly golden age archery 

Why would I buy a Black Widow ? As I very well may again soon.

Well made bows , shootability etc .. and yep i can find them lots of other places too 

What isn't so common is great customer service and quick turnaround time .

When it can cost me over $200 US just in shipping charges here to Oz , I want to know that the bowyer will take care of me and quickly 

I can get that with Widow ... some other bowyers too ,and probably many I don't know about , never bought from etc but "knowing" that it'll actually happen is always a good thing 

But the point is that whilst we can disagree about construction methods and using the word "custom" , certainly argue aesthetics ...

it would be hard to fault their great customer service 

and they ship 1 pce bows cheaper to Oz than most others


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## La Wildman

It's because people over bow themselves all the time. Notice the poundage of all the ones being sold.Most are all heavy poundage. When a lighter poundage one goes up for sale it sells twice as fast as a heavier ones.


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## Rick Barbee

I currently have one for sale.

I'm not selling it because I don't like it, because I think it is a great bow, but I like my ILF rig much better.
I'm not selling it because it is to heavy draw. It is actually quite a bit lighter draw than I am accustom to.

I'm selling it for two reasons:
1 - no sense having a bow of this quality & value setting around unused.
2 - I could use the cash, and it has a good resale value.

Simple as that.

Rick


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## Dsturgisjr

I've had to sell a couple Widows because the taxidermy bills were killing me.


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## LBR

It's pretty simple. If you don't want one, don't buy one. There are countless Widow owners who are quite happy with their bows. A look around Denny Sturgis' house, especially his Trophy Room, will make any hunter drool...his Widows have served him well on hunts all over the world.

That BW doesn't offer "custom" options or do any testing is simply not true. Check with the company if you have questions concerning either of these.

As metioned, other "custom" bowyers use CNC machines, and others wish they had one. It just assures consistency--what's wrong with that? A CNC is basically a high-tech form or jig, which every bowyer uses to some degree.

Finally, although they don't toot their own horn, BW does a lot to promote archery and support charities. One is the Catch-A-Dream (www.catchadream.org) which takes care of kids in the U.S. AND Canada.


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## LBR

Speak of the devil....guess your ears were burning Denny! You beat me by a minute!


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## Bigjono

I don't like the look of widows, I don't like the feel of widows, so I don't own one. Others love them and own plenty, it's a choice thing.
Stop for a minute and think how lucky we are with the amount of choices and options we have for bows now. We can all choose to shoot what we like to shoot and others should accept that. 
I've had my butt kicked by a guy with a widow before, the target doesn't know what shot it.


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## Mo0se

I made a mistake..hey it was from memory... but here is the original thread regarding speed from our widow.

I stand corrected, and the arrows weigh 305 gr. switched to 100 gr. tips 

Widow speed results

186 fps at 10 gpp is what I achieved, I'm completely satisfied with that number.


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## vabowdog

I don't build bows nor do I know how to.....so for a bow co. To allow me to order a certain size sight window or center shot most shooters today don't even know what their center shot is or how it affects anything...I would be really hesitant to order a bow from someone like that or especially buy a used one that may be cut 3/8" before center for a 66" bow with a 2" sight window....ordered by someone who has no idea what is best for him or the bow.

No thanks 

I will just keep dealing with the Widow boys.

Dewayne


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## Zeus1

Does anyone know where I might find limbs for a BW HF1225....64" [email protected], which was built in the mid seventies I believe. BW doesn't make limbs for this model and didn't have any suggestions other than possibly finding some old limbs. 
I know its probably a stretch but any help or ideas on where one might look would be appreciated.


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## Barry O'Regan

Zeus1 said:


> Does anyone know where I might find limbs for a BW HF1225....64" [email protected], which was built in the mid seventies I believe. BW doesn't make limbs for this model and didn't have any suggestions other than possibly finding some old limbs.
> I know its probably a stretch but any help or ideas on where one might look would be appreciated.


Have you emailed Roger at Black Widow? I am sure they can make a set of limbs for you, I am sure if you send them your riser, you will be good to go!


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## Zeus1

No, but I called BW and spoke to Toby I believe, and he advised that they didn't make them anymore for that model.


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## Barry O'Regan

Black Widow pride themselves as a "CUSTOM" Bow maker, with the Word CUSTOM! 
I would still call Roger, a limb is a limb, they can make a pair of limbs as long as they have your riser to match the limbs with. While the limbs may not be a perfect colour match, they should be close enough.
I can't see what the problem would be, it is not like you riser is any different between any other riser.
If Black Widow cannot make it, go to any competent Bowyer, I am certain they can make you a matched pair of limbs for your takedown bow. 
Just ensure they use Gordon Glass on the limbs as this is what Black Widow use. It's worth a shot.

Roger Fulton

Black Widow Custom Bows

1201 Eaglecrest

P O Box 2100

Nixa MO 65714

(417) 725-3113
[email protected]


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## Shotkizer

Just my thoughts. Border and Black Widow are both producing about 1000 bows a year. You can find a Black Widow in the classifieds almost anyday. Good luck finding a Border. Why? Black Widow is no longer a top of the line performance bow anymore. It's unfortunate. If they could spend some $$ investing in carbon technology, they could be setting the bar again.


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## MotherLode

Ask any compound shooter to name a custom recurve bow company , what they will say is "Black Widow" . Black Widow has a done a great job of getting their brand name out there , and they back it up with a decent bow and solid reputation.


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## GEREP

Iluvatar said:


> It seems like every time I visit the Traditional Classifieds page here on AT there are usually 3-4 BW's for sale on the front page. Why are so many people selling them? I'm only asking because I thought of buying one because I have heard so many good things about them. If all that is true, why are people always wanting to get rid of them?


The answer to that question is actually quite simple.

It is the same reason you see so many more Honda Accords, and Toyota Camrys in the Auto Trader than you do Bentlys and Jaguars.

Think of all the reasons for that, and therein lies your answer.

KPC


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## LongStick64

I am a Black Widow owner and I have always backed them up, in my opinion they are an extremely well made bow, it's the fanciest bow I own and I always wanted one from a teenager getting the BW catalog in the mail and hoping to one day own one. I bought mine used, from here to be exact and I have been pleased I did. All that being said I just bought a Sky Thunder recurve for less than half it would cost to buy a new BW and it shoots harder, and quieter than the BW. So now I might post my Widow for sale too.


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## Barry O'Regan

Shotkizer said:


> Just my thoughts. Border and Black Widow are both producing about 1000 bows a year. You can find a Black Widow in the classifieds almost anyday. Good luck finding a Border. Why? Black Widow is no longer a top of the line performance bow anymore. It's unfortunate. If they could spend some $$ investing in carbon technology, they could be setting the bar again.


ShotKizer, that is an unfair comparison on BW, though other Recurve Bow Manufacturers may have technologically advanced materials in their bow versus Black Widow which outperform BW. There are also wood arrows,which are vastly outperformed by aluminum and carbon arrows, many of us prefer wood arrows, for its craftsmenship and simplicity, relying on our expertise with a bow versus allowing technology to do it for us. Black Widow averse to carbon overlayments speaks that many of us prefer old school over new school.

But if one is looking for as you say "high performance brought on by technological advancements, say carbon" and pin point accuracy, they should go to Compounds,sight, stabilizers, including carbon arrows versus wood arrows, which will provide superior performance. 

Black Widow has a long history on pride of hand craftsmenship, old school technology, (though I surmise they have now been using CNC for a while on risers) they are precise, and quality bows made of select woods. I have a rather large collection of Black Widows, dating back as far as the late 1950s up to the late 1960s. These bows shoot as accurate as when they were new. I also have a mint in the box 37 year old fiberglass limb #40 Bear 76er, metal riser, a cheapo $20 garage sale find that shoots as smooth, and close in accuracy as my Black Widow of equal draw weight up to 30 yards. What does that say about both companies workmanship? While Bear also makes quality bows for everyone's budget, Black Widow may not, but then everyone has a choice, experienced trad shooters that love Black Widows made their choice, as I am sure many other trad archers prefer other bows. To each his own I say, as I believe every North American bow manufacturer make quality bows for everyone's budget,to slam one over the other is unfair. I like to think skill is what makes us better archers, not technology.


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## Shotkizer

Barry,

I'm don't want to argue. I really believe what I said. If Widow would make the capital investment in the carbon limb technology, they would once again be in the top tier, IMO.


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## grantmac

The truth is that BW is NOT a *custom* bow builder, they are a *customizable* mass produced bow. If they were truely custom then producing limbs for any riser they have ever made would not be a problem. Instead they have invested in CNC machinery and people who are good at getting a nice finish on them.
You get more options when you buy a car these days.

They have a very simple riser design that allows substantial amounts of deflex while keeping most of the mass inline or infront of the bow hand for good balance. That design and the multiple laminations allow minimal wasted material in their production.

They haven't done any real R&D on improving their design for decades, all they have done is find ways of streamlining their production process (CNC). In theory a BW should be less expensive now than it ever was (inflation adjusted). But as we know that isn't the case, they have to pay for all that advertising somehow.

If you want a BW just get a used one, it's not like you are getting anything particularly unique or special when you get a new one. You also aren't getting any advancements in performance or materials. There are enough out there that if you wait for a month or two one will come along in just the configuration you want.

-Grant


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## JParanee

MotherLode said:


> Ask any compound shooter to name a custom recurve bow company , what they will say is "Black Widow" . Black Widow has a done a great job of getting their brand name out there , and they back it up with a decent bow and solid reputation.


True but most compound shooters do not know jack about recurves  

I have my Black Widow from many years ago 

It was my second custom and the first custom I had built for me 

Its a great bow and I killed one of my biggest whitetails with it 

Even thou I do not shoot it that much I'll always keep it 

But everything Grant says is true


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## GEREP

grantmac said:


> The truth is that BW is NOT a *custom* bow builder, they are a *customizable* mass produced bow. If they were truely custom then producing limbs for any riser they have ever made would not be a problem. Instead they have invested in CNC machinery and people who are good at getting a nice finish on them.
> You get more options when you buy a car these days.


That's the case for every bow manufacturer. They are all "production bows" where you get to pick a few "options."

KPC


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## MAC 11700

I've shot a ton of different bows over my years in archery. ..and can say this about the Widows...There is no recurve bow being built today that shoots like it..in the same price range.It has a unique feel to the cast no one else has. 

I once said Black Widow didn't build true custom bows...but I was mistaken. .Just because a cnc machine is used to ensure the cuts are made on the riser exactly the same so limbs can be enterchanged does not mean that it is not a custom bow..

A true custom means being built to your specifications..not a off the shelf model..and there are many custom bowyers that offer bows both ways....and this includes Black Widow.

Many folks have never seen a real custom Widow....but they are out there...search out black and white ebony black widow recurve..and you will see some you normally dont find in the classifieds. .

Mac


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## grantmac

GEREP said:


> That's the case for every bow manufacturer. They are all "production bows" where you get to pick a few "options."
> 
> KPC


BW only offers wood selection, grip and tiller. I got more options with my last coffee.
Also if they can't produce limbs to fit their older bows then what does that say? There are bowyers who will produce a limb for almost anything you send them.

-Grant


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## MAC 11700

grantmac said:


> BW only offers wood selection, grip and tiller. I got more options with my last coffee.
> Also if they can't produce limbs to fit their older bows then what does that say? There are bowyers who will produce a limb for almost anything you send them.
> 
> -Grant




You know...you just like to slam them every time someone asks about them.....

They may not build your little ilf rigs or limbs for risers decades old... and i know several good bowyers that don't. ..be that as it may...wither they have as many options as another company is irrelevant. . they still build a damn good custom bow.. that holds its value like it or not. ..If you need a special order for how you shoot...pick up the phone and call Toby..I've found that they are willing to work with anyone to get them what they need..

Mac


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## LongStick64

Just curious Grant what bowyers and options offer so much more than Black Widow that it is significant. Especially if we are talking volume. I've seen some really unique bows but not a single one of those bowyers can match volume. Im sure Black Widow is not the only one that has "limited" options, but what options can we consider to be significant to the bow's performance. For example, I've seen bows with antler tip overlays, looks cool but really doesn't outperform micarta.


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## MAC 11700

FWIW...I just spoke with Toby at Black Widow...they do indeed make limbs for some of the older bows ..the only ones that don't is the older metal risers...and they will cut the sight window to preference as well...Also..per Toby..they have built some foam cores and carbon limbs..but didn't offer anymore than what they have built in the past or present..

So..while our Missouri boys don't offer ILF rigs...they are custom bows built to order..what they have in stock wasn't to the specs on weight or looks..so each bow is built to specs..

If you feel they aren't custom..you're wrong..and while they may not be cutting edge.and use designs that are older...they still are excellent bows that hold their own


Yup..they are expensive. .no doubt about that. .but worth it if you like them...and they do offer their test drive if you are wanting to try before you buy... 

Mac.


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## MotherLode

Your right they don't , but in their eye's Widows are the mark due to what they have been exposed to. If they get involved beyond just flinging a few arrows for fun I think as the trad world opens up to them they start to realize many quality options. Which I'm sure amounts to at least some of these adds. Add that to compound guys just trying to recoup some of their investment.
I've owned a couple, both longbow and recurve. They are decent bows although the PL I had was somewhat a beast to shoot , it did shoot straight though and I ended up trading it for a bow that cost about a 3rd less , it was a good trade. 
I also think many are buying on looks and fad (and not just Widows) . I've bit on some of these myself only to learn that there are some mediocre performers are masked by exotic woods and the finest of workmanship along, this reference is towards many bows out there. 










JParanee said:


> True but most compound shooters do not know jack about recurves
> 
> I have my Black Widow from many years ago
> 
> It was my second custom and the first custom I had built for me
> 
> Its a great bow and I killed one of my biggest whitetails with it
> 
> Even thou I do not shoot it that much I'll always keep it
> 
> But everything Grant says is true


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## Shotkizer

One reason I think Habu bows can command a 200% price increase over the Widows is that they took the BW design and improved performance by adding carbon. I asked one of the top bow manufacturers why many bowers are producing bows that are 30 years behind in technology. He replied that it came down to money. It takes a lot of of time & money in R&D to develop a successful carbon limb. In response to the post. IMO, there are more Widows for sale because purchasers think they are buying a top performing bow. They later resell when they realize there are better performing Bows out there.


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## DAVID S.

Lotsa misinformation on this thread. A little research goes a long ways.


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## irishhacker

Shotkizer said:


> Just my thoughts. Border and Black Widow are both producing about 1000 bows a year. You can find a Black Widow in the classifieds almost anyday. Good luck finding a Border. Why? Black Widow is no longer a top of the line performance bow anymore. It's unfortunate. If they could spend some $$ investing in carbon technology, they could be setting the bar again.


From ONLY the first page of search results.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2171426&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2172172&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2125203&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2166055&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2130009&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2071474&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2056050&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1970360&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1953287&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1936561&highlight=Border
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1942566&highlight=Border

I love both of my Black Widow recurves.. 
How many Black Widows have you shot?
For that matter.. How many Borders have you shot?

It drives me crazy when people spew nonsense all over this forum when they have zero experience to back up what they are saying.


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## BLACK WOLF

It's always a little entertaining watching some of the prejudices that come up discussing brand name bows.

It's like arguing what's best...Chevy or Ford. Dodge or GMC...LOL.

Black Widow makes great bows. They are a dependable company with great customer service. Yes...there are other companies such as Border who are producing faster and more efficient bows...but that doesn't mean Black Widows are junk.

I've always loved the shape of Black Widow bows and now that they have been offering custom woods....they are even more attractive to me.

I've personally chosen to go a different direction after being sent a DAS bow to test out.

To each their own...IMO. Just because BW are found more often in classifieds does NOT make them bad bows. Far from it!

Ray :shade:


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## irishhacker

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's always a little entertaining watching some of the prejudices that come up discussing brand name bows.
> 
> It's like arguing what's best...Chevy or Ford. Dodge or GMC...LOL.
> 
> Black Widow makes great bows. They are a dependable company with great customer service. Yes...there are other companies such as Border who are producing faster and more efficient bows...but that doesn't mean Black Widows are junk.
> 
> I've always loved the shape of Black Widow bows and now that they have been offering custom woods....they are even more attractive to me.
> 
> I've personally chosen to go a different direction after being sent a DAS bow to test out.
> 
> To each their own...IMO. Just because BW are found more often in classifieds does NOT make them bad bows. Far from it!
> 
> Ray :shade:


Are you liking the DAS? I've been thinking about getting an ILF.. not sure yet.


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## MAC 11700

MotherLode said:


> Your right they don't , but in their eye's Widows are the mark due to what they have been exposed to. If they get involved beyond just flinging a few arrows for fun I think as the trad world opens up to them they start to realize many quality options. Which I'm sure amounts to at least some of these adds. Add that to compound guys just trying to recoup some of their investment.
> I've owned a couple, both longbow and recurve. They are decent bows although the PL I had was somewhat a beast to shoot , it did shoot straight though and I ended up trading it for a bow that cost about a 3rd less , it was a good trade.
> I also think many are buying on looks and fad (and not just Widows) . I've bit on some of these myself only to learn that there are some mediocre performers are masked by exotic woods and the finest of workmanship along, this reference is towards many bows out there.


A Widow is a quality bow...and a damn fine choice of a bow as well..and I've shot thousands of arrows over the past 51 years of my archery life..Im well beyond just flinging a few arrows down range.

Every Widow I have shot has done as well as most other bows..Sure..there are some faster bows being made..but not by all that much and for similar cost new with a longer wait..and none can match the average resale value of them.

The one thing about a Widow...especially if you have matched the draw lenght with the bow lenght..is it doesn't stack as bad as most bow and .I've shot most models that have been made since the early 70's...and they all have been excellent performers..

Now...could a person want something different..yup..happens all the time..People are like that..and I know many guys who have to sell to get something new...and many are buying anothervWidow too..

As for what folks are exposed to..yes...many see the ads..and the design and the exotic woods ...and this entices them..Why..it's obvious. ..they like how they look...they like the fact that the resale value is high..and most like how they perform...and I know it isn't hype..

The majority of folks who have and currently own them like them...if they weren't excellent bows and worth their cost..they wouldn't be selling a ton of them every year...and this I know also. ..their customer service is awesome. .I know a few companies that it isn't and Lord help you if you have a real issue..

I'm quite sure other shops do well..but looking at the market..I would rather have to sell a Widow than any other bow...I know I'll recoup more..and sell it quicker.

Are there better bows of that design. ...yes and no..but imho...no .when all things are considered. ..

Mac


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## Shotkizer

irishhacker said:


> From ONLY the first page of search results.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2171426&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2172172&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2125203&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2166055&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2130009&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2071474&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2056050&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1970360&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1953287&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1936561&highlight=Border
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1942566&highlight=Border
> 
> I love both of my Black Widow recurves..
> How many Black Widows have you shot?
> For that matter.. How many Borders have you shot?
> 
> It drives me crazy when people spew nonsense all over this forum when they have zero experience to back up what they are saying.


Whoa there, wrong assumption about me. I own a Border Hex 6 BD and have tried out Widows but they were not my top pick. Borders are blazing fast, ultra smooth, with no stack (in fact, the percent change in pounds per inch decreases at anchor). I like widows, just wish they would spend the R&D $ to invest in carbon limb technology and increase their speed.


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## irishhacker

Shotkizer said:


> Whoa there, wrong assumption about me. I own a Border Hex 6 BD and have tried out Widows but they were not my top pick. Borders are blazing fast, ultra smooth, with no stack (in fact, the percent change in pounds per inch decreases at anchor). I like widows, just wish they would spend the R&D $ to invest in carbon limb technology and increase their speed.


Sorry bud.. I guess I made the assumption that you had not shot widows or borders based on your previous inquiries of the tradtech bows..
In my mind, that would be like a guy talking about the performance of mercedes and bmw,, then also asking about a volkswagen.


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## JParanee

irishhacker said:


> Sorry bud.. I guess I made the assumption that you had not shot widows or borders based on your previous inquiries of the tradtech bows..
> In my mind, that would be like a guy talking about the performance of mercedes and bmw,, then also asking about a volkswagen.


If your saying the Trad Tech bows are the volkswagon in performance comparison to a widow you obviously never shot a Titan with BF Extremes 

I have all the bows mentioned here and my TT setup smokes my widow in every category 

This includes price , speed , smoothness, etc 

Don't get me wrong I like widows but I much prefer my TT setup and my Border setups to them 

I also like VW  

They own Porsche , Audi, Bentley and Lamborghini just to name a few


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## irishhacker

JParanee said:


> If your saying the Trad Tech bows are the volkswagon in performance comparison to a widow you obviously never shot a Titan with BF Extremes
> 
> I have all the bows mentioned here and my TT setup smokes my widow in every category
> 
> This includes price , speed , smoothness, etc
> 
> Don't get me wrong I like widows but I much prefer my TT setup and my Border setups to them
> 
> I also like VW
> 
> They own Porsche , Audi, Bentley and Lamborghini just to name a few


Tradtechs are nice bows.. just like VWs are nice cars..(I bought my daughter a VW)
They perform well, they just don't look as good doing it


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## GEREP

BLACK WOLF said:


> It's always a little entertaining watching some of the prejudices that come up discussing brand name bows.
> 
> It's like arguing what's best...Chevy or Ford. Dodge or GMC...LOL.
> 
> Black Widow makes great bows. They are a dependable company with great customer service. Yes...there are other companies such as Border who are producing faster and more efficient bows...but that doesn't mean Black Widows are junk.
> 
> I've always loved the shape of Black Widow bows and now that they have been offering custom woods....they are even more attractive to me.
> 
> I've personally chosen to go a different direction after being sent a DAS bow to test out.
> 
> To each their own...IMO. Just because BW are found more often in classifieds does NOT make them bad bows. Far from it!
> 
> Ray :shade:


Good points Ray.

My journey has been a lot like yours in that when I tried a TradTech Titan almost 8 years ago, it's pretty much been the only bow I've shot since. (I've tried dozens of others, but have yet to find anything I'd trade it for.)

I do have a number of friends that shoot Black Widows and while they aren't the bow for everyone, including me, they are exceptionally made, beautiful, bomb proof hunting bows, backed by a company that has a stellar reputation for customer service. They know what their goal is, and they meet it or exceed it with everything they offer.

As to the performance thing, you are only going to get so much performance from a conventional recurve limb. Beyond that, something has to give. In order to get more, things have to get lighter, designs get more radical, and materials get more sophisticated. There is always a cost. Sometimes it's dollars, sometimes its durability, and sometimes it's behavior.

I have been on these boards for well over a decade now, and while I'm sure it happens, I just have never seen anyone talking about BW durability. I just don't remember it ever being brought up. Pretty much everything else about them had been hashed, out but never has it been about durability, or customer service. They know what their bread and butter is, exceptionally crafted, beautiful, bomb proof hunting bows with good to above average performance, backed by awesome customer service. They just don't seem interested in chasing the FPS dragon if it means bringing any of those things into question. That is not the case for some of the other more "technologically advanced" offerings we read about. 

I think your auto analogy works, but in a little different way. A Lamborghini will literally blow the doors off of a Ford 150, a Toyota Tundra, or Jeep...on the track. However, when it comes to relying on it to get to your favorite hunting spot, and hauling a deer, a bear, or a hog out afterward, I know which one I'd be driving.

:wink:

KPC


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## papadeerhtr

shot quite a few widows and owned one they are a very well made and finished bow. the ones I have shot have all been really quick and dead in the hand by far themost accurate bow I personaly ever shot was a diamond anniversary model still kick myself for not buying it just couldn't seem to miss with it. friend of mine has a tulip wood longbow that is as sweet as they come shoots extremely well so I guess you could say I am a widow fan but out of my range as far as new bows go I will have to buy used lol.


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## JParanee

irishhacker said:


> Tradtechs are nice bows.. just like VWs are nice cars..(I bought my daughter a VW)
> They perform well, they just don't look as good doing it


Irish check out how pretty a trad tech can be


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## irishhacker

I will agree...that tradtech does look nice.. much better than the other risers they have


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## JParanee

irishhacker said:


> I will agree...that tradtech does look nice.. much better than the other risers they have


Thanks Irish 

It shoots better than it looks


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## Loren Freeman

I think tradtech makes some sweet risers...I really like the recon personally. As for the whole widow thing...I think it is just due to so many of them being made. they are a popular bow with a proven record of performance and their quality is second to none-due in part to their construction methods. To say that they are not a top performing bow is a little harsh, especially considering their near cult following. But there are many bowyers out there now that make exceptional bows for less $. There are even very similar bows (Rainy Day bows, for one) that are quite similar for less money. We also see a lot of "bow hoppers" and although I simply cannot afford to be, if I could I probably would search many different companies hoping for that "perfect fit". I agree that Black Widow should experiment with carbon and foam though.


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