# winder



## jaredc (Mar 23, 2008)

Pm sent


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

I should say, i have a apple winder, but i would still like to know the pros and cons of the HTM, and how it compares, is it faster? dose it lay down serving better? dose it serve in either direction like the apple? and at what RPM? and so on,
Thnks
Mike


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

Also interested in opinions on this from those who have used both.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

I designed and build the controls for the HTM, newest machines will serve @ 1600 RPM and serving in either direction is certainly not a problem.


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## Barn Burner Strings (Sep 10, 2011)

I would also like to know if it serves @1600 rpm when serving at 450#. The apple tends to loose some of its speed when loaded.


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## Barn Burner Strings (Sep 10, 2011)

What about when your serving at 450# does it slow the motors down. I've noticed the apple will slow down when loaded.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

From what I've heard the HTM's take alot of maintenance. The two motors need to be sync'd together or it won't work properly. There are some notable string builders using these but the apples seem to be more popular. The apples serve faster as well. I'm still shocked that there aren't more options for string machines. The HTM is alot more complex then the apple but seriously there is nothing to an apple and they cost as much as a nice used vehicle.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

For almost 3K more than the apple the HTM twists from both ends, no thanks!
What else am I missing except the computer twisting for you and setting the post distance...Whats that?? 5 more minutes out of my time doing it myself..
While I agree twsiting from both ends would make for a more consistant string...The rest of the automation isnt worth the extra 3-4K...
Upgrading HTMs step motors to serve faster also cost more money...Step motors are not cheap at that level of RPM's your talking about

Now I know a few guys are upgrading their HTMs with pneumatic assist to keep the tension constant...

I have called HTM several times to try and justify spending that much money, but I can almost buy two apples and or a bunch of material ...

I have heard that HTM;s wands are much nicer than the apples, they want approx 250.00 for those...


Now if somone could just develope a machine that could be used on a uni strut that would save a ton money on materials and shipping costs


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

The two motors do not need to be synced together, as already mentioned we use stepper motors which by their very nature will run at exactly the same RPM. As far as serving tensions the motors will not slow down, but if overloaded may stall. I know of at least one person who serves @ 450lbs and 1600 RPM, but 450 lbs is going beyond where HTM warranties the machine. I believe 350 - 400 lbs is where HTM warranties, I can get the exact number if you like. The issue with 450 lbs is more about stress on spindles and spindle thrust bearings then about stress on the motors. 

How easy is it to reverse the serving direction on the Apple? 

I have designs using servo motors which could serve at speeds as high as 2500 - 3000 RPM, I am just not sure HTM is interested in marketing a machine of this sort.


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Call Cracker's or John (bucknasty) they are a couple of the first two to get them; ask them the questions..They should be more than glad to help you


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Yes, Crackers purchased machine #1. Compared to the first machine the new machines have:
- improved spindle bearing design
- variable maximum speed adjustment
- faster maximum serving speed
- air cylinder for string tensioning vs. spring


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

I would gladly pay the extra dime to save 5 minutes per string/cable but here's my question. Sure the HTM twists and tensions but what do you do while you're letting it stretch? We have a large line of stretchers that are always full and stretching while the apple is only used for serving. If I had to wait for each piece to stretch on the machine I'd never get anything done. To switch serving direction on an apple you just flip a switch or step on the other side of the pedal. 

BDZ65 don't take this the wrong way since it appears you're affiliated with HTM. I do this for a living and I'm always looking for products to better our company. I do agree it's tough to drop the coin on an HTM when you could just about get 2 apples for the same price. If someone can show me how to either improve our quality or save us time while keeping the present quality then I'll take 2.


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

60X
Yes I am friends with the owner of HTM, we shoot archery leagues together etc.. I was asked some years ago to design a motor system for a string server which had a seperate motor on each spindle. I chose to use stepper motors as this was the most economical approach. A benefit of stepper motors is they will run at exactly the samer RPM and will not slow down when a load is applied, they are also rather simple to control. Drawbacks to steppers are problems with load harmonics and speed limitations. Recently as requests have come in to serve faster I have spent many hours of my personal time thinking about how this could be done differently and I do have at least one solution which could easily serve as fast as 2500 to 3000 RPM. As far as benefits of the HTM, the twist/untwist feature is certainly one, we can also tightly control how quickly we ramp to speed which has an impact on how tightly servings cinche in. I feel another benefit is with my training as an electronics engineer and knowledge of making strings for myself/friends, I can assist an HTM customer taylor a machine to make it do what is needed. It is really only through feedback from people like yourself that we will know what functionality should be built into these machines.

Also someone else stated why not offer a machine that can simply be mounted on a kindorf channel, to save on shipping etc.. Well I see no reason why this cannot be done with the HTM design, all you really need are two spindle housings, motors and controller. In this configuration however the user would take it upon himself to develop a means to apply string tension while serving, which I think we all realize is an important parameter to making a good string.


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

I would like to see an up close and detailed video of the HTM running from start to finish on a string. I think this would give all of us a idea of how and if it would fit in our building process. This is just my opinion.


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

true that....


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

I wonder why these companies don't market these machines more. It's so tough to find any info on them. A you tube video would work wonders.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

The video is a good idea. These machines are custom built and HTM currently does not have a completed machine in their shop. On our next build I will take the time to make a short video of how the HTM is used to make a string. I did contact HTM to discuss the video idea and it was suggested in the mean time please contact other owners of HTM, Crackers and bucknasty here on AT, were mentioned and get their opinion. Also contact HTM they may be able to put you in contact with someone who has experience with both machines.

Brian


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

how long before we can se a video? because i was told it takes 8 weeks for one of these thing to be built...
Mike


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## PDB Strings (May 13, 2010)

I think proline has used both machines and prefers the apples. We use machines of our own design that are very similer to the apple and have held up very good for us.


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

Well some of us on here should have some one build us a unit we all like, (that mite be hard lol) so as to stop all this guessing on what's good whats bad and so on, there is only one problem with this plan, i have no idea where to start... lmao
Mike


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

bump


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

I spoke with the owner of HTM again, he does not currently have any orders for a machine and he would prefer to wait for an order to build the mechanical assembly. At this point all I can promise is when the next machine order comes in, I will make a video after I complete start-up testing.


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

sounds good,
Mike


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## tweeter196 (Jun 9, 2009)

BDZ65 You purchased a rest from me I am trying to contact you anyway I can. I want to ship tomorrow but would like confirmation on the shipping address. Your inbox is full. Please PM me with shipping info. Thank you.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

OK string makers, here is your chance. I am designing my new winder control system, for HTM. Following is a list of features:

- Tension string to 450 lbs, while serving.
- Maximum serving speed 2500 RPM. motor system capable of 3000-5000 rpm maximum.
- Fast speed will be variable, via. a foot control or rotary knob, and will be adjustable while running.
- Speed selection: slow forward/reverse, fast forward/reverse will be via. HTM's handheld pendant.
- Twisting will be selectable from a thumbwheel switch and pushbuttons. Machine may be purchased without twist capability.
- User programmability for the following:
* Fast speed
* Slow or jog speed
* Ramp rate to maximum speed
* Limit on produced torque
All functions are programmable without the need for a laptop computer, special software or cables.

I am looking for feedback, help me incorporate features you want into this new machine!

Brian


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

Hi Brian,

1)the 2500 RPM sounds good, 
2) the rotary Knob for the control of the speed is what we use now with the apple winder,(I do like that, i have all my hands free to use my servers,)
But i dont know if there is a better way, because that is all i have used, Mabe some of the other guys that have done it either way can chime in...
on the apple we use a fut pedal to go forward and back, But again that is all i have used...

Thanks for listening and getting back to us Brian, i hope other Builders chime in
Mike


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

How is the string tensioned, spring or pneumatic




BDZ65 said:


> OK string makers, here is your chance. I am designing my new winder control system, for HTM. Following is a list of features:
> 
> - Tension string to 450 lbs, while serving.
> - Maximum serving speed 2500 RPM. motor system capable of 3000-5000 rpm maximum.
> ...


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

HTM's current design is pneumatic and the new machine would be as well.


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

Will this new machine hold constant tension while you are puting all the twist in? We still want a video once this thing is done lol.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Yes, the current machine holds constant tension while twists are applied.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

Can you vary the string tension or it is auto at 450lbs? I like the forward/reverse foot pedal on my apple. If I had to flip a switch to change it wouldn't work for us. I know for us personally the price is the big hangup on the HTM machine. Even thought these look like a space ship in comparison to an apple the extra coin is tough to spend as an experiement. Personally we don't need all the extra high tech stuff. Give me something that spins the string with heavy tension and holds up to years of abuse and I'll take at least 3.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

String tension is variable by adjusting an air pressure regulator.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

I just watched a video on the Apple operation. Setting up the new HTM controller to be exactly like the apple is simple. So you can have your choice of Apple style control or HTM pendant style control. The only difference I see is Apple uses a foot switch to select forward or reverse at fast speed, what ever is selected on the speed dial. HTM offers 4 selections forward slow, reverse slow, forward fast and reverse fast. Withe the HTM control scheme, fast speed will be whatever is selected on the variable speed dial, while slow speed is configurable in the drives. Additionally the HTM controller allows the user to configure ramp rates to fast speed and back to 0 speed. These ramp rates have been found to be a variable in end serving quality and durability. Finally based on the prices I found during my search the price gap between the Apple and HTM is not as wide as some make it sound.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

When I was machine shopping it was $5000 for the apple and $8000 for the HTM. I understood the difference in pricing but at almost double the price I couldn't justify spending the extra money when everyone seems to love their apple and there isn't much feedback out there on the htm.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

This is what I found last night on "FS Discount Archery"

_Apple Archery "Pro String Server" (part#0725) $7250_

There was mention of this being a new dual channel design. Strange thing is I can not find anything on Apples website. Also from the video I watched, the Apple employs a simple DC variable speed motor, probable running 1700 RPM unloaded and as a load is applied the motor will tend to slow down to the 1500-1600 RPM range. So the speed capability gap between the Apple and the existing HTM is most likely not as wide as I was led to believe. I wonder has anyone ever tached their Apple?


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

the apples are not sold anymore, so you mite as well forget about them, unless your going to have one made, as soon as HTM has one of these done, im going up there to see how it works first hand,
the apple is very simple and i dont know how simple the HTM is, but im going to find out...., as far as i know they are two HTM's, the normal one that dose 1600 RPM, and up yo 400 pounds, and then there is the one that gose up to 2000+ RPM, and gose up to 500 pounds, (it's more heavy duty) thats what i was told, one is $7800 and the other is around $9000.....

Mike


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

I clocked my apple one time and my ******* math came up with around 1600rpm under 600lbs tension.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Thats about what I would have expected, with a 1750 RPM DC motor, but 600 lbs do you really need to serve @ those kind of tensions?


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## GWN_Nuge (Oct 1, 2004)

Not sure if the HTM has the following capability or not but it sure would be nice:

Is there a quick 100lb AMO measurement feature on the HTM for measuring string length? I.e. hit a button, the pneumatic tensioning system builds to 100lb and holds the tension at that threshold?

Thanks,

Nuge


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

ttt


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

The HTM currently has a simple pressure regulator on an air cylinder. String tension is directly related to air pressure, once pressure is set string tension will remain constant.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

I have been working evenings on the new motor controls for the past (2) weeks and have most of the details worked out now. Tonight I will de-bug my program and after the 4th I plan to take to HTM to mount on a machine and test @ 450lbs up to 2500 RPM.

Brian


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

OK I just got home from HTM we now have the new motors and drives mounted on a new HTM machine. The new HTM machine has re-designed spindles and bearing assemblies, aimed at high speed and high tension. Currently the pneumatics for stretching are not hooked up, but we installed a string and twisted to approximately 400LBS. tension. After the string was twisted to approximately 400 lbs. we turned the speed up to max. (3000 RPM) and ran the machine non-stop for 8 hours. During this acid test we did not notice any appreciable bearing heating and motors were barely warm at the end of the test. Finally we attempted to stall the spindles, while running 3000 RPM @ 400lbs. tension, by squeezing between gloved thumb and index fingers, yea I know a little scarey, we could not generate more than 60% motor load during this test. 

HTM ran more tests today with much of the same torture test. Tonight I got the forward and reverse twist function working, machine will be capable of twisting 99 twists forward or reverse in one operation. I also ran a test for synchronization, motors were run forward and reverse while adjusting the variable speed, after over 2000 revolutions the machine was stopped and synchronization was found to be exactly where we started. You may ask how I know the spindles maintained synch, we marked both spindles with a marker and the drives themselves each maintain a revolution counter. At the conclusion of the test both motors had rotated the exact same number of turns and the spindle marks were still in perfect synchronization. 

I am confident we have a real horse here. 

I just ordered electrical enclosures to install my equipment into. We should have a completed machine by August 13th, at which point I will attempt to make some videos.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

Any pricing change with the new updates?


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## GWN_Nuge (Oct 1, 2004)

Thanks for the update, I was hoping to hear some more news and this sounds very encouraging for a very high quality piece of equipment.

That one test does sound a bit scary... reminds me of the farm safety video horror shows we had to watch when we were kids lol.

Rearding the pneumatic component... do you know if there will be an on-board compressor or is there a requirement for an external source?

Thanks,

Nuge


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Thats a good question, I will have to ask HTM if they supply a compressor with the winder.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

60,

The price will be a little bit higher than the old stepper model. Again I will have to direct pricing questions to HTM. When I started this new design I knew our needs were right between 2 available motor sizes and of course I opted for the larger. It is our desire to potentially down size the motors to bring the cost very close to the old machine, but we are building this machine for an existing order on a tight time schedule. After we get this machine operating on the shop floor, make sure no unknown bugs exist and have a chance to really evaluate motor torque requirements, pricing will be more clear. Please call HTM to discuss current price estimates!


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for everything Brian..
Mike


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

OK, control equipment is mounted in a permenant enclosure and re-installation on machine will be complete tonight. Tomorrow HTM and I plan to begin making machine videos. I plan to show the following:
- equipment layout
- drive parameter adjustment
- string tensioning system
- operator controls
- serving at high tensions and various speeds

Anything else you would like to see, please let me know and I will make sure to include.

Brian


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## GWN_Nuge (Oct 1, 2004)

Looking forward to it, thank you sir!


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

BDZ65 said:


> OK, control equipment is mounted in a permenant enclosure and re-installation on machine will be complete tonight. Tomorrow HTM and I plan to begin making machine videos. I plan to show the following:
> - equipment layout
> - drive parameter adjustment
> - string tensioning system
> ...


I would like to see it put the twist in the string. Also does this machine have an external readout for how many lbs.are being applied? Last question....does it run with a foot pedal?


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

You will see the machine twisting in the videos we make tonight. As far as tension readout, the air pressure applied to our air cylinder directly relates to string tension, air pressure is controlled by an on-board regulator. By reading regulator set pressure you are reading string tension. Also if the string length changes, when twisting or stretching, the tension will remain constant, due to the the regulator. Finally the machine can be run with a foot pedal a wireless remote or just about any switch you would like. 

Now for another subject. Last night we made a crude video and I would like to post it today, however I cannot seem to be able to create a YouTube account. During the account creation process the pull down for birthday month and country do not work. Anybody have suggestions how I can get around this?


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

Ok I have to ask. I'm sure this has to do with builders much larger then us but what is the purpose of a wireless remote? I'm sure I could have fun messing with our guys but I don't see a use for it in a non automated setup. I'm anxious to see this video as well.


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## PDB Strings (May 13, 2010)

Have you given any thought to just making a plain machine that simply twists the string? I know as a medium sized builder that's all we're looking for. While the HTM machine looks great it's a bit of overkill for the average string company in my opinion.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Here is the crude video I took last night. We will make better videos tonight. 
And yes, we have & are giving thought to build a simpler machine.


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## dwagoner (Sep 27, 2007)

looks good!! definitely out of price for me since i dont do strings for a living. Is that mount a piece of aluminum I beam???


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## tuckcut (May 18, 2005)

I'm impressed......may start saving some pennies that think looks like a top fuel dragster!!!! In the meantime, I'd like to order a paddle with the interchangeable head...

Thanks


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Please call HTM for orders of any kind, again I only build the controls for these machines.

As fas as cheaper offerings we talked about the following machine options:

CONTROL SYSTEMS
- Stepper system without twist capabilities and variable speed (1200 RPM max.)
- Stepper system with twist capabilities and variable speed. (1200 RPM max.)
- Servo system without twist capabilities and variable speed. (2500 RPM max.)
- Servo system with twist capabilities and variable speed. (2500 RPM max.)

MECHANICAL SYSTEM
- Standard duty bearings, as on old HTM machines.
- Heavy duty bearings, as on new machine in video.

It would be possible to build any machine with foot switch control or with handheld wireless. Most people that actually try the handheld wireless wand really do like it.


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## 60X (Nov 8, 2002)

Are there any guards around that belt? I could see me or a spool of serving getting sucked into that thing.


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## tuckcut (May 18, 2005)

60X said:


> Are there any guards around that belt? I could see me or a spool of serving getting sucked into that thing.


I can see that thing doing a 1/4 mile in 8 seconds!! lol


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Yes of course we have a guard around the belt, as I mentioned we just got the machine running and we made this quick video. We just completed a 6 segment video series tonight and I am in the process of uploading them.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Here is segment #1, an overview of the HTM serving machines.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Here is segment #2, the pneumatic string tensioning system.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Segment #3, the twist function.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Segment #4 variable speed control. In this segment when the camera is close to the spindle assembly, my voice cannot be heard. What we are attempting to show is the automatic controlled ramp from running 2500 rpm in one direction to immediately being commanded to run 2500 rpm in the other direction.


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Last Time I checked, they wont sell the heads unless you own one of their machines, even at that they were right around 300 bucks is what I was quoted...nice machine by the way



tuckcut said:


> I'm impressed......may start saving some pennies that think looks like a top fuel dragster!!!! In the meantime, I'd like to order a paddle with the interchangeable head...
> 
> Thanks


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Segment #5, emergency stop safety feature.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Segment #6, upgraded bearing assemblies and controller options.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Segment #7, handheld serving wand with quick change head.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Segment #8, apply 65 twists @ 450+ lbs and begin serving.


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Ever wander what it looks like to serve @ 2500 RPM???? Check out this video!!!

More than 450 lbs. string tension, 8-9 lbs serving tension, .022" diameter serving. With .022" diameter serving, 2500 RPM should produce .92 " per second, .014" serving will go on @ .58" per second, see it for yourself. The amazing thing is the serving looked at good as what I apply by hand with my Beiter winder!!! 

You asked, what can the HTM do that the old Apple cannot? well it can twist the string under greater than 450 lbs tension @ a rate of 5 twists per second, maintain a constant string tension while stretching and twisting and provide a 56% increase in serving productivity, not to mention the productivity improvements offered by the quick change head!!!


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Nicely Done

Call for Pricing I asume??


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Yep


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## GWN_Nuge (Oct 1, 2004)

I really appreciate you taking the time to make and post the video's of this system in action. Very helpful in order to make an informed decision indeed!


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Hopefully everyone can see just how much thought went into this machine. I began thinking about the design of this new control system a year ago and finally had the opportunity to build it!
I am really excited to begin getting this thing into the hands of string makers.

Brian


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## Barn Burner2 (May 25, 2011)

that is nice, will be calling about one soon
Mike


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## Bow pro (Mar 4, 2009)

I see one more thing I would add to this machine and I would think it should be easy to do. Add another toggle switch on the other end of the machine to release tension. This would save the time of walking back and forth to tension and untension. I always start at the loop with very little to no tension on the string. Just a thought. Other then that the machine looks bad @ss!!!!


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