# Poundage for 70m



## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Just want to share my daughter's current setup. She is just 10 years old and she is able to shoot 70m aiming at the center of the target. She can score around 250/360 so the grouping is not yet very good.

25in kinetic arios, uukha ex1 evo2 rated 28lbs(pulling 24lbs otf), 24.5in draw length, 1800 easton inspire arrows with 80gn points and gnocks, 14strand carrera 99 bowstring.

Video link:





Youtube video link

one of her best groups:


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## mdyan (Mar 7, 2013)

nice form!


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

mdyan said:


> nice form!


Thank you! Maybe not very evident in the video but there is still lots of room for improvement if the form is examined up close.

She got into archery when she was 7. She is actually a national champion for the little girls division. Lol.


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## Timevoid (Aug 19, 2018)

lexel_martin said:


> 25in kinetic arios, uukha ex1 evo2 rated 28lbs(pulling 24lbs otf), 24.5in draw length, 1800 easton inspire arrows with 80gn points and gnocks, 14strand carrera 99 bowstring.


Those Inspire arrows are horrible. I think i had 3 straight arrows of every batch of 12, just by rolling them on a glass table.
My club decided to ban those carbon arrows from the range because of the crazy shots beginners manage to do with them. We threw them in the trash and started hand out Platinum plus as replacement for whats went into the trash.

If our head coach saw an "inspire" arrow in someones quiver, steam would start pumping out of hes ears and he start cursing like Captain Haddock in the cartoons.
They looked like bananas. I would recommend other affordable brands like Skylon, Black Eagle, Cross-X and even Avalon classic if its needed.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Future Olympian-- nice shooting,


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Agree that the inspire arrows are not that straight. But i think they still get the job done. At short draw lenghts (24.5in in this case) they are almost the same as any higher cost arrow at 1800 spine. They fly and group relatively well. We also have easton acc arrows at 1500 spine slightly longer at 26in. The accs fly better but they are also heavier. So they wont reach 70m at this poundage.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

mdyan said:


> nice form!


I thought the same thing!! Maybe slow down the process a little bit but DANG she is on it!!


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## elykrod (Feb 17, 2020)

Great job family! I shoot with my son, but mostly just for fun with him having no intention of improving. But Always a great time though. I shot inspire 700 with 40 lb limbs for about a year. Loved them and broke a bunch. 10-80 meter barebow. Bought more and loved them. Then I bought victory vap 700 v6 with 110g. The difference is night and day. Instantly better groups. In 8 months I've never broken one.


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## UK_Stretch (Mar 22, 2006)

My experience with the Inspire is OK. My daughter shoots 1200s - they’re not perfect but they’re cheap and perform just fine for the price level. They are fletched with a Mylar vane so the spin may compensate for the minor wobbles but nothing in those 12 that would worry me.

If they were so bad why didn’t you/the archer/ the coach send them back to the dealer? I remember an archer at a club where I was a member getting an old set of Easton PC that were so scruffy they looked liked they’d been on the store room floor for a few years. A quick call to the dealer from me and we had some nice shiny new arrows - no hassle. Accepting faulty goods is a disservice to all consumers.

Stretch


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## Lorne (Jun 5, 2016)

Great. Now I'm being out shot by a 10 year old girl.

Life just keeps getting better and better.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Lorne said:


> Great. Now I'm being out shot by a 10 year old girl.
> 
> Life just keeps getting better and better.


Don't worry - it'll get worse, brother!!


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Is it even legal to fill the arrows with helium? Come on, admit it.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

Nice shooting!

Now....go teach her how to adjust the sight.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

UK_Stretch said:


> My experience with the Inspire is OK. My daughter shoots 1200s - they’re not perfect but they’re cheap and perform just fine for the price level. They are fletched with a Mylar vane so the spin may compensate for the minor wobbles but nothing in those 12 that would worry me.
> 
> If they were so bad why didn’t you/the archer/ the coach send them back to the dealer? I remember an archer at a club where I was a member getting an old set of Easton PC that were so scruffy they looked liked they’d been on the store room floor for a few years. A quick call to the dealer from me and we had some nice shiny new arrows - no hassle. Accepting faulty goods is a disservice to all consumers.
> 
> Stretch


Same observation, the inspire arrows "wobble" more in the air compared to higher end arrows like the acc. But aside from that they are still ok in my opinion.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

archeryal said:


> Is it even legal to fill the arrows with helium? Come on, admit it.


Maybe we should try this... and then shoot 90m. Lol


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

lameduck said:


> Nice shooting!
> 
> Now....go teach her how to adjust the sight.


Hehe. It was a practice session and we were not checking where the arrows were landing. The groupings are normally around the size of the 7 ring for good shots. But the setup is very unforgiving, a little collapse or a little gust of wind and it is in the black...


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## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, where are you shooting? I spend 3 years in the Philippines and got my start in archery at Kodanda Archery in Makati Cinema Square.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm from Missouri on this one.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

kevwill said:


> Just out of curiosity, where are you shooting? I spend 3 years in the Philippines and got my start in archery at Kodanda Archery in Makati Cinema Square.


Hello mr kevin williams? We are currently shooting at belarmino. My kids are being mentored by coach syd fraginal. I believe you know each other?


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> I'm from Missouri on this one.


Skeptical? Hehe. Willing to bet? Joke.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> I'm from Missouri on this one.


Kidding aside, my daughter will be joining a world archery philippines sanctioned event next weekend. I will share official results once available. I hope her scores are not laughable. Lol. Highly dependent on wind conditions.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lexel_martin said:


> Kidding aside, my daughter will be joining a world archery philippines sanctioned event next weekend. I will share official results once available. I hope her scores are not laughable. Lol. Highly dependent on wind conditions.


Please do. I'm sure we will all be interested to see them.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> Please do. I'm sure we will all be interested to see them.


If i may ask, why are you skeptical? I think there are a few other kids here of the same age also shooting 70m. Although admitedly, i think my daughter is the smallest built. Hence maybe the lightest poundage. The other kids are a little bit bigger and stronger.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Now that limbwalker is in this thread, i would like to thank him for his posts on tuning low poundage bows. I actually learned a lot from him specially his arrow spine rule of thumb. I think it is very good or very close for low poundage setups.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Limbwalker always mentioned 2000 spine medallion xr arrows that could easily reach 50m at low poundage. Those arrows weigh around 5gpi i think. The newer 2000spine eastons only weigh 3.4gpi. The lighter arrows enables the kids now to shoot 70m


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Congrats to your daughter. People are often skeptical when something is outside of their experience. I know I've never seen someone so young shoot 70m with any sort of proficiency, so I get where John is coming from. Being of Filipino descent, I take a bit of false pride that your daughter can do this.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

In my opinion which will have eggs thrown at me....

not sure why you would even have a ten year old shoot 70 meters. Seems detrimental if you plan on here having a competitive career in the long run. You say most of her groupings are not very good. This is not a positive reinforcement for her shooting or training. Any tournament she shoots in her age group will have her shoot at a much closer distance. You are training her to shoot 70 with a bow arm angle that is not what she would shoot against her peers. This is the same as trying to add on all the extensions and short rods when they are not able to control the bow. Always ruins the form. In your Chheil shooting archery video, his bow arm is terrible due to all the stabs on the bow making it too heavy. Just drilling that in is not good and will have to be untrained later in his shooting career. totally detrimental. 


In your video of your daughter, she barely anchors, doesnt hold at all to aim. No precision there are all. This is drilling in some not so good stuff to be honest. Eventually she wont control the shot.

At her age, i would have her shooting 20-30 meters and wanting all her shots in the yellow on an 80 cm target. When she can do that, then move to 50 meters if she is advanced. If she cant do that at 30 meters, bring the target closer until she can. Then work your way out keeping the all yellow as a guide. Train her to shoot yellow as a normal course of shooting. Train her to shoot DVD size groups, then baseball size groups. Her groups will be better and this is give a positive reinforcement each end.

While it's impressive you have got the gear to a place where she can shoot 70, and that she can land arrows on the bale at 70, she is not ready for 70. She wont be competitive at 70. She is young and impressionable. Impress her with great groups at a distance she can dominate. I think you are promoting the wrong idea here for her competition career.

Even Casey Kaufold didnt move up in divisions until she could shoot great groups at each age appropiate division. As a cadet, she won outdoor nationals as a cadet, then won the Junior division as a cadet, and then the senior division as a cadet age. She worked her way up and moved up in division each time when she won.

But to each his own. Her accomplishment is impressive, and i would be proud as a dad. But as a coach, I would see it as a detriment.

as an aside, i have a 14 year old student that shoots international tournaments and world cup events. She is currently only shooting 50 meters and learning baseball size groups. She can and has shot 70 meters and has shot 320s/360 at 70 meters. But i have her relearning to shoot baseball size groups at 30 and now 50. By the end of May, she will finally have it enough to move to 70 meters.

Back when i worked with Emily Yap in the Philippines, I would have never had her shoot further than she needed to for a tournament.

Learning to shoot baseball size groups at the appropriate distance is a must if you want the archer to be competitive long term and develop good training habits and good competitive mental abilities.


ok, everyone can now throw the eggs.

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lexel_martin said:


> If i may ask, why are you skeptical? I think there are a few other kids here of the same age also shooting 70m. Although admitedly, i think my daughter is the smallest built. Hence maybe the lightest poundage. The other kids are a little bit bigger and stronger.


Skeptical because at 3.4 gpi and those velocities, it would take less than 10 mph wind to blow the arrows completely off the bale. Under perfectly calm conditions? Perhaps. Surely there is at least one 10 year old out there who has a combination of 1) perfect technique and 2) zero nerves to be able to shoot a few groups in the gold at 70. I coached a young lady who, at 10, could have shot those kinds of groups. Again, under only perfect conditions though and even then, not more than a few times.

But rules (of thumb) are made to be broken, right? Every generation has individuals who come along and shatter the norms. I shattered a few of my own so who am I to say? 

I wish you both luck and windless days.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lexel_martin said:


> Limbwalker always mentioned 2000 spine medallion xr arrows that could easily reach 50m at low poundage. Those arrows weigh around 5gpi i think. The newer 2000spine eastons only weigh 3.4gpi. The lighter arrows enables the kids now to shoot 70m


My daughter was shooting 23 lbs. at 23" draw, using 1214 Jazz aluminums at 50 meters. Then I moved her into the 2000 medallions and then eventually into Nano SST's. 

When she was shooting the 1214 Jazz at 50 meters (again, 23lbs @ 23") she was aiming off the bale in a moderate cross wind.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> In my opinion which will have eggs thrown at me....
> 
> not sure why you would even have a ten year old shoot 70 meters. Seems detrimental if you plan on here having a competitive career in the long run. You say most of her groupings are not very good. This is not a positive reinforcement for her shooting or training. Any tournament she shoots in her age group will have her shoot at a much closer distance. You are training her to shoot 70 with a bow arm angle that is not what she would shoot against her peers. This is the same as trying to add on all the extensions and short rods when they are not able to control the bow. Always ruins the form. In your Chheil shooting archery video, his bow arm is terrible due to all the stabs on the bow making it too heavy. Just drilling that in is not good and will have to be untrained later in his shooting career.
> 
> ...


Hi, i actually agree with this. We also train regularly at the shorter distances. But to be honest archery training gets boring at shorter distances shooting all yellows. So to change things up and give challenge, we shoot longer distances.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lexel_martin said:


> Hi, i actually agree with this. We also train regularly at the shorter distances. But to be honest archery training gets boring at shorter distances shooting all yellows. So to change things up and give challenge, we shoot longer distances.


If you are building a champion, you have to be disciplined while fun. If she is bored at 30 meters, then have her shoot all Xs and see how well she does with that. Who gets bored shooting an X recurve?

I doubt 30 meters is too easy for her shooting all yellow. Does she break several nocks per training session at 30 meters? She shoots only 10s and Xs at 30 meters on the 80 cm target? Is her group baseball size most ends at 30? ( now baseball size @ 30 meters is not that small for an adult archer, but for her age i feel its an appropriate size grouping). If she can shoot all yellow at 30, then train to cut out the 9s. That grouping is too large. All yellow comes first, then baseball size groups. 

If not, she needs to work on 30 meters in my opinion. Seeing her form, I would not expect her to shoot 350/360 at 30 meters on the 80cm target. But i have seen great scores from less than stellar form archers.

Not to say she isnt doing awesome, and is really passionate about shooting. But i think you guys need to nurture this passion and ability with training that is appropriate for her form and age.

I saw her other videos, she seems to be a fan of Chang Hyejin. That is a great role model to have.


Chris


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> In my opinion which will have eggs thrown at me....
> 
> not sure why you would even have a ten year old shoot 70 meters. Seems detrimental if you plan on here having a competitive career in the long run. You say most of her groupings are not very good. This is not a positive reinforcement for her shooting or training. Any tournament she shoots in her age group will have her shoot at a much closer distance. You are training her to shoot 70 with a bow arm angle that is not what she would shoot against her peers. This is the same as trying to add on all the extensions and short rods when they are not able to control the bow. Always ruins the form. In your Chheil shooting archery video, his bow arm is terrible due to all the stabs on the bow making it too heavy. Just drilling that in is not good and will have to be untrained later in his shooting career. totally detrimental.
> 
> ...


And she can also shoot very good groups at 30m and 50m. That was also the real coach's requirement before he allowed us to shoot 70m. Real coach meaning not me, im the dad "coach". The real coach is a former national team archer.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lexel_martin said:


> And she can also shoot very good groups at 30m and 50m. That was also the real coach's requirement before he allowed us to shoot 70m. Real coach meaning not me, im the dad "coach". The real coach is a former national team archer.


well, to be honest, i am not very impressed with his coaching if he is allowing 70 meters for her. I probably would know of your coach. I have spent some time coaching national Philippine recurve archers.

But good luck, i hope to see her one day at the Olympics. My wife and i will be cheering for her and the Philippines. 


Chris


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Oh Geez Chris, lighten up. What kid doesn't like flinging arrows at distance? One of our most fun activities ago was letting kids fling arrows at 90m. We spent a bunch of time looking for arrows, but the fun factor was off the charts.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> Skeptical because at 3.4 gpi and those velocities, it would take less than 10 mph wind to blow the arrows completely off the bale. Under perfectly calm conditions? Perhaps. Surely there is at least one 10 year old out there who has a combination of 1) perfect technique and 2) zero nerves to be able to shoot a few groups in the gold at 70. I coached a young lady who, at 10, could have shot those kinds of groups. Again, under only perfect conditions though and even then, not more than a few times.
> 
> But rules (of thumb) are made to be broken, right? Every generation has individuals who come along and shatter the norms. I shattered a few of my own so who am I to say?
> 
> I wish you both luck and windless days.


Hehe. Yes good luck to us. We will try our best to make you proud. Lol


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> If you are building a champion, you have to be disciplined while fun. If she is bored at 30 meters, then have her shoot all Xs and see how well she does with that. Who gets bored shooting an X recurve?
> 
> I doubt 30 meters is too easy for her shooting all yellow. Does she break several nocks per training session at 30 meters? She shoots only 10s and Xs at 30 meters on the 80 cm target? Is her group baseball size most ends at 30? ( now baseball size @ 30 meters is not that small for an adult archer, but for her age i feel its an appropriate size grouping). If she can shoot all yellow at 30, then train to cut out the 9s. That grouping is too large. All yellow comes first, then baseball size groups.
> 
> ...


Of course she cant shoot as good as this. Hehe. Even i cant do this at 30m but i still shoot 70m. Hehe.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> well, to be honest, i am not very impressed with his coaching if he is allowing 70 meters for her. I probably would know of your coach. I have spent some time coaching national Philippine recurve archers.
> 
> But good luck, i hope to see her one day at the Olympics. My wife and i will be cheering for her and the Philippines.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I hope she keeps interest in archery. We all want to make the olympics. But in reality its very unlikely that we will make it that far. So might as well just fling away at longer distances. Lol


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lexel_martin said:


> So might as well just fling away at longer distances. Lol


As long as you guys are aware that's what she is doing, then its not detrimental. Have fun and fling them far. 

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Oh Geez Chris, lighten up. What kid doesn't like flinging arrows at distance? One of our most fun activities ago was letting kids fling arrows at 90m. We spent a bunch of time looking for arrows, but the fun factor was off the charts.


I agree, but he said she was entering a tournament at 70 meters and competing. Huge difference to me.

Perhaps i misunderstood his post regarding the World Archery Philippines sanctioned event. I took that to mean she was shooting 70 meters in a tournament. 

He said he hoped her scores were not laughable. Not the experience i would want for any of my students in a tournament. Hopefully she will have fun. 

Chris


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> As long as you guys are aware that's what she is doing, then its not detrimental. Have fun and fling them far.
> 
> Chris


Oh by the way mr chris hill? I also saw a lot of your videos. I just want to thank you, they also helped a lot. The tuning stuff and the way you emphasize alignment. I try to implement the alignment thing as a top priority for my kids. Although it is easier said than done. Lol


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> I agree, but he said she was entering a tournament at 70 meters. Huge difference to me.
> 
> Perhaps i misunderstood his post regarding the world archery sanctioned event. I took that to mean she was shooting 70 meters in a tournament.
> 
> Chris


Yes, we are joining a tournament... hehe. But we dont expect to win it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lexel_martin said:


> Yes, we are joining a tournament... hehe. But we dont expect to win it.


I'd be real careful with the "we" language.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Lexel, please don't take my skepticism the wrong way. I sincerely wish only the best for you and your daughter. I do hope you keep reality in view though. I've seen and worked with too many parents of talented young archers who lost sight of reality and screwed things up for their kids.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> Lexel, please don't take my skepticism the wrong way. I sincerely wish only the best for you and your daughter. I do hope you keep reality in view though. I've seen and worked with too many parents of talented young archers who lost sight of reality and screwed things up for their kids.


Yes, no problem sir. At the end of the day, archery for me is just a game meant to have fun with. I just go out and shoot with my kids every now and then. It doesnt matter how much we score, we just spend time together. We also join tournaments here to spend time with friends. I think its not as competitive here compared to other countries. I just shared maybe to show that it doesnt really take much to shoot 70m. Everybody should try it. Its more fun the farther the target is.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I know I sound like Larry Tate (Bewitched tv show from the 60's), but I agree with Chris, and Gabe, and John. 

Gabe = flinging arrows at 90m fun factor off the charts .... yes! Such a fun thing to do (as a 'lark', or a break in routine). 
(appropo nothing except "90meters", I love the Darrell Pace story of his 6 arrow warmup at 90meters the day before competition that totally blew away Koreans mental harmony).

But also agree with Chris - a 10yr old in a 70meter formal competition? Why? What legit purpose ? So much downside, and what is the productive upside? "I'm just in it for the experience and don't care where I place" is usually a laughable falsehood to oneself. 

And, I agree with John - "I'd be careful with that 'we' stuff." 

Just as a kind of side comment, I never ever got bored shooting an arrow in the yellow, even when I was doing so a lot of the time. Queue "Memories" from Cats....


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

"I'm just in it for the experience and don't care where I place"

- i am actually guilty of this a lot of times myself. But i still think its okay if you just want to shoot. For me, also i think its learning how to lose and being okay with it. I think that is a big part of archery and maybe any sport for that matter.

Hehe, sounds like lame excuse but i think learning to lose actually makes me mentally stronger. Lol. So its okay to join tournaments and shoot badly. Hehe

Maybe not to the point that you are missing the bale everytime and delaying the tournament by looking for your arrows.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> In my opinion which will have eggs thrown at me....
> 
> not sure why you would even have a ten year old shoot 70 meters. Seems detrimental if you plan on here having a competitive career in the long run. You say most of her groupings are not very good. This is not a positive reinforcement for her shooting or training. Any tournament she shoots in her age group will have her shoot at a much closer distance. You are training her to shoot 70 with a bow arm angle that is not what she would shoot against her peers. This is the same as trying to add on all the extensions and short rods when they are not able to control the bow. Always ruins the form. In your Chheil shooting archery video, his bow arm is terrible due to all the stabs on the bow making it too heavy. Just drilling that in is not good and will have to be untrained later in his shooting career. totally detrimental.
> 
> ...


Hello sir chris, thank you for this, this is actually good advise. Any tips or drills on how to improve the anchoring? Of course, we will implement the changes during form shooting or short distance shooting. Hehe.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

lexel_martin said:


> "I'm just in it for the experience and don't care where I place"
> 
> - i am actually guilty of this a lot of times myself. But i still think its okay if you just want to shoot. For me, also i think its learning how to lose and being okay with it. I think that is a big part of archery and maybe any sport for that matter.
> 
> ...


On the surface of this, I don't necessarily disagree. It all depends on 1) what is in the secret heart of the archer (truly just in it for the experience and how to 'work on stuff dispassionately' while you're under some competitive pressure? Or saying all the right things, but having a secret expectation of performance based on anticipation of absolute perfection?, which is <looming disaster on a stick>), and 2) how the archer reacts to a poor placement (does she truly learn from the dissection of performance, and generate a plan and resolve to address the areas that need improving, ala Rick McKinney youth career? Or does it create less productive reactions?) Best of luck!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

If you compete, you care.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> If you compete, you care.


Of course. But the real question is whether you care more about long term or short term gains.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

to be fair, i might be fairly jaded in my view of these type things. And certainly it's none of my business if she shoots a 70 meter target or even does archery at all. I am not her parent and have nothing to do with her archery as a whole. But this thread was posted on AT to engage commentary and talk about his daughter's shooting so i chimed in. And i am never one to hold back my opinion as i feel honesty does the best service.

I would preface my opinion with my experience that i have seen too many Dad coach or Mom coach ruin a kid's archery by interfering with the actual coach' program and advice. A number of times, i have seen the kid's form ruined, goals ruined and expectations disappointed and lost. Usually the actual coach gets the blame when in fact the "parent" coach is to blame.

What i see from my limited perspective is a dad who is super proud of his daughter and what she accomplishes. I see a dad who loves to shoot archery. I see a dad who in my opinion is putting his goal of archery onto a 10 year old way too soon for her to handle.

His daughter at age 10 already has a national coach, the dad is posting videos of her shooting slo motion with a matching Hyejin Chang slo mo. While the child's form is nothing similar to Hyejin Chang, nor does she even understand what she is trying to imitate. I see a rush to compare the kid to a world class level archer like Hyejin Chang. I see a dad entering his young daughter into a World Archery national event years too soon "for the experience of it hoping it's not laughable or windy. I see a dad who treats her archery like she is a national competitor but when there is push back, she becomes a recreational just for fun archer. At 10 years old, it should be fun with some discipline. There isnt any comparing of form yet. She needs the basics first. And a good bit of time spent with the basics.

I see a dad spending a lot of time on arrow creation and bow setup so she can shoot 70 meters, when she wont have to shoot that distance for years. Far better to create an arrow and bow setup that can shoot 18 meters and 30 meters. especially one that will do well at 30 meters in the wind.
I see a dad convincing a national coach to be ok with her shooting a 70 meter tournament. Why have a national coach if you won't follow their recommendations and advice. I can't imagine any national coach in any country thinking putting a 10 year old in a nationally ranked 70 meter tournament is a good idea. But maybe so.

Regardless, In the end, the parent coach overrules the actual coach, and this has been detrimental in my experience. The parents, coach and archer have to be on the same program and page. The parents should be supportive, and the coach should coach. When the parent overrules or supercedes the coach and game plan, it never works out.

I see a dad who in one post says she shoots great at 30 and 50 meters, then in another post says she doesnt shoot good groups. Says the archer gets bored shooting 30 and 50 meters. A 10 year old bored with shooting 30-50 meters? I wonder if the dad is not the one bored with the daughter shooting 50 meters.

Too much attention and effort on tournaments and making 70 meters instead of attention to the basic core foundations of good form. Not enough attention on shooting appropriate distances for form and good shot execution. Not enough attention on letting the kid progress naturally and normally.

Last year when Drew was shooting, he could only manage the bow with a sight pulled in and one long rod with no weight. He wanted to try a full stab system like the bigger archers since he was going to shoot Vegas. So i put on side rods with no extension. Completely ruined his form. I use the example in my seminar. He still doesn't shoot with side rods ( though he doesnt shoot at all much currently). I had to say no, you are not ready for this. He was disappointed, but my advice was for the better of his shooting. In my opinion, I don't see really anyone making good choices for the better of her shooting. I just see a rush to get her shooting like the big time archers. Having an archery role model is great, trying to do like they do too soon, not so great.

This dad isnt saying no, if it's the kid that is driving this. If the kid is just following the dad, then the dad isnt saying no to his own dreams/ goals for his daughter. Either way, i find this type of situation pretty much un-coachable.
It was in my past experience, and the archer never benefitted from it. I doubt it will be in the future. She seems to love archery, and the dad and her seem to love spending time together shooting. The rest of it past that, i dont see it helping her archery at all.

Dad coach, Mom coach, any of that in a potential student and i walk away. I had a 3 time national champ ruined by the parent. So much so that the kid doesnt even shoot anymore. The last tournament shot, the kid ended up in last place at nationals. Huge plunge from winning it to last place.

His daughter may stay a recreational archer and i hope she stays enjoying the sport. I hope the dad continues to enjoy shooting with his daughter. Nothing is better for me than shooting with my wife or son. But i hope the dad tempers some of his excitement/ rush for her archery with recognition that she is only 10. Let her be 10, and shoot the things a 10 year old would shoot. Shoot a bow she can handle for her age. She may eventually become a national archer. But she needs to progress to that in her natural time.

Her dad is an awesome dad and I would hate for him to make archery more difficult for her in the long run. This sentiment is what John was implying as well in several of his posts.

not trying to beat the dad up or rain on their parade, but this is my experience. I am a dad and did coach my son in archery, but the coach side had to prevail and say no when it came to his shooting when he wanted too much too fast. And as a dad, i have never superceded his other coaches ( basketball, swimming, soccer etc). I just supported Drew and i let them coach him.

Now you can throw eggs again.


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, we've both had nat'l champ (and better) quality students ruined by parents. I guess this is part of our experience. If a coach has coached very long at a very high level, they will be able to say the same thing. This is not a new phenomenon. Parents have been trying to live vicariously through their kids since kids were invented. It's literally Biblical. LOL I'm sure I'm guilty of it too sometimes although my coaching experiences made me acutely aware of my words and actions around my kid's coaches and teachers, and around my kids when it came to their performances in sport or band or theater. 

The late (great) Tom Barker - who may be the best youth archery coach you've never heard of - loved to say that the proper response by a parent to their child is "I love to watch you play." And that's it. Usually followed by "are you hungry?"


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

There was a time when the cadet ladies were shooting 70 mt, not 60 mt only, so girls were starting shooting 70 mt around 14 ...
My daughter won her first World Championship with the Italian cadet team in 2002 shooting 70 mt when she was not 14, yet. Arrows were ACC ... poundage around 30#
She did not shoot 70 mt in competition until she was 13, if I well remember. And as a coach of many other young (good) girls in the years, I have never trained any of them at such a distance before 13-14 age. Reasons well explained by Chris. Then everything goes to the physical structure, time available for training, money (can cost a lot) and ambitions (usually of parents).


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Hehe, Thank you for the comments, i really appreciate and learn a lot from them. After this tournament, we will get back to short distance shooting and focus on form. Because of the covid situation here, there are very few tournaments available so we wanted to maximize what we can join. And also partly due to covid, its a bit more difficult to get proper coaching sometimes. So maybe its my fault that there was no coach in the range and me and my daughter played around shooting up to 70m. Lol.

Of course i am proud of my kids. And i also know how difficult this sport can be. Me and my daughter was really just curious how far her setup can shoot. So i decided to share in case anybody was curious how low your poundage can be to reach 70m while aiming on target. So lighten up guys! Hehe. We dont really have any ambition to go to the olympics. Its very difficult to qualify.

Mr chris hill saw our youtube. Lol. The other archery videos there are very funny. I didnt realize they were public (now i hate myself for not checking lol). The comparison to chang hye jin is a "nailed it" video i used as a joke for my wife and daughter. of course I know my daughter is nowhere near that. Hehe There are lots more where it came from. I hope i uploaded them as private.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Im no expert but i think shooting longer distances actually makes you see your mistakes in form. That you otherwise dont see too much at shorter distances. So in a way, shooting farther might actually help?


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Or i am just that bad at checking form. Lol


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lexel_martin said:


> Im no expert but i think shooting longer distances actually makes you see your mistakes in form. That you otherwise dont see too much at shorter distances. So in a way, shooting farther might actually help?


So long as there is zero wind maybe.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

limbwalker said:


> So long as there is zero wind maybe.


Yes, totally agree.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

So, if ever my kid decides to stay in archery and get serious, you guys will not even consider coaching her? Because of me? Thats a bummer really. Hehe


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> to be fair, i might be fairly jaded in my view of these type things. And certainly it's none of my business if she shoots a 70 meter target or even does archery at all. I am not her parent and have nothing to do with her archery as a whole. But this thread was posted on AT to engage commentary and talk about his daughter's shooting so i chimed in. And i am never one to hold back my opinion as i feel honesty does the best service.
> 
> I would preface my opinion with my experience that i have seen too many Dad coach or Mom coach ruin a kid's archery by interfering with the actual coach' program and advice. A number of times, i have seen the kid's form ruined, goals ruined and expectations disappointed and lost. Usually the actual coach gets the blame when in fact the "parent" coach is to blame.
> 
> ...


Chris,
your post conjured up an image of an Apache gunship helicopter being deployed to swat a mosquito. Ratatatatatatah. BAM!

My coaching (without near the breadth of yours or John's) experience includes a couple of similar circumstances to the examples you guys have repeatedly cited. Well intended but very disruptive interference by a parent. With debilitating results for the archer. Such a shame.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lexel_martin said:


> So, if ever my kid decides to stay in archery and get serious, you guys will not even consider coaching her? Because of me? Thats a bummer really. Hehe


I think that's totally up to you and the way you see your role in her archery. You might want to go back and re-visit the quote I posted from Tom Barker.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Coach>>>coaches athlete>>>parents help the Coach in ways the Coach deems useful to the athlete. 

or

Coach>>>struggles with parents who know less than the coach and inadvertently (or otherwise) disrupt the Coach/athlete relationship/learning process >>>athlete suffers.

Any coach will nod approvingly at the first option and contemplate retirement from coaching if entertaining too much of the second.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Archery is such a weird sport. I mean, can you even imagine a high school volleyball or football coach telling the parent what their child needs to be doing, or sitting down and having long conversations with the parents right in front of their kids? Absolutely NOT. The parent's parent and the coaches coach. 

I'm sure golf is the same way, where so many instructors have to deal with good-intentioned parents who put ideas in their kid's heads or worse - give them expectations to worry about.

ALL THAT SAID - this forum tends to offer a coach-heavy perspective as many of us contributors are also active or former coaches. I think for that reason, a lot of parents who participate here probably just keep their thoughts to themselves.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lexel_martin said:


> The other archery videos there are very funny. I didnt realize they were public (now i hate myself for not checking lol). The comparison to chang hye jin is a "nailed it" video i used as a joke for my wife and daughter. of course I know my daughter is nowhere near that. Hehe There are lots more where it came from. I hope i uploaded them as private.


As i said in my post, i only have a limited perspective on what i see. Its 2D vs what is really going on there in 3D. The videos may be light hearted and in good fun. My perspective can easily be flawed or skewed. But i do see enough to make me question the choices that are being made for her archery. I can not say my opinion is the only way to view it. I just give my take on what i see. There are plenty of people who don't care for anything i say archery related. To each his own. And as i said i am not the parent.

To me you seem to flip back and forth between she is serious shooter with national coach and she is recreational shooter just flinging arrows. For me it's one or the other. Having a recreational kid shoot is full of fun and crazy stuff to entertain them. Having a goal of shooting nationally is a completely different matter. As all the coaches here know, it is very easy to teach and train great form, but it is extremely difficult to untrain bad form and bad habits. Years can be wasted. You have to be careful with the archer on a path to national competitions so you are not drilling in bad things. Archery form is easy enough when taught by a good coach. The mental part of competing is much harder to get and you want to keep as much of the shooting as positive as you can.

At age 10, i wouldn't be thinking of any of this and i would let her shoot the distance she is supposed to shoot so she has positive experience each time she shoots. instill the joy and passion first. And begin work on her form from close to 30 meters. Shooting distance does make you a better archer, but it is within reason. I do not think she would derive much feedback at such a far distance. Factors such as wind would play too much a role. Better to shoot closer so outside factors are limited and grouping can give feedback on a good shot vs a bad shot. 

Yes, covid has affected many things, but there are good coaches that teach remotely over the internet. The day where you had to win the archery lottery by living near a really good coach is pretty much gone. I have students in countries i have never been to nor ever met in person. I know a number of coaches that are the same. Vittorio spent some time coaching me from Italy a handful of years ago. Great coaching is available if you look for it.

I didn't not say your daughter was uncoachable. I said i find that type of situation uncoachable. That is a big difference. The situation is dependent on the parents, coach and the archer. As a coach, i will not coach in that situation. I have had my coaching change to that situation and it never ended well for archer.

My approach with an archer is to do no harm. I am there to help the archer meet their goals and expectations. I am there to help them shoot as well as they can. To whatever level that is. I am not there to be a part of something that messes them up or makes my coaching ineffective.

There are parents to want their kids to compete and go up to a national level, even when the kid is 10 or 12 years old. This is very common. Sometimes i have had the kid come to me with that very goal at 10 or 12. I am not saying it is bad. But if this is the case and the desired goal, then the training and shooting program must reflect that. Then care must be taken to ensure the archer is nurtured in a way that does not add in bad stuff that needs to be trained out later. Competitive archery is hard enough, growth spurts, poundage and bow weight issues, costs of competing etc. If that road is taken, then different rules apply than just having a kid flinging some arrows as far as they can. Or shooting any tournament they can just for the experience. I have even told kids and parents not to shoot an upcoming tournament because it would be detrimental to the progress WE had made to that point.

Tournament experience is important once they are ready to compete on an even playing field. Shooting one with no hope of being competitive i do not consider experience. Learning to be a good loser is a valuable skill, losing when you shouldn't be on the field i don't think teaches anything except you don't belong there.

And for archery, i never want anyone to feel they don't belong on the field.

Chris


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> As i said in my post, i only have a limited perspective on what i see. Its 2D vs what is really going on there in 3D. The videos may be light hearted and in good fun. My perspective can easily be flawed or skewed. But i do see enough to make me question the choices that are being made for her archery. I can not say my opinion is the only way to view it. I just give my take on what i see. There are plenty of people who don't care for anything i say archery related. To each his own. And as i said i am not the parent.
> 
> To me you seem to flip back and forth between she is serious shooter with national coach and she is recreational shooter just flinging arrows. For me it's one or the other. Having a recreational kid shoot is full of fun and crazy stuff to entertain them. Having a goal of shooting nationally is a completely different matter. As all the coaches here know, it is very easy to teach and train great form, but it is extremely difficult to untrain bad form and bad habits. Years can be wasted. You have to be careful with the archer on a path to national competitions so you are not drilling in bad things. Archery form is easy enough when taught by a good coach. The mental part of competing is much harder to get and you want to keep as much of the shooting as positive as you can.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir. I know you guys here are some of the best coaches in the world. I will take all your advise positively. Of course its still up to my kids if they want to get serious. If that time comes i will try my best not to interfere. For the meantime, no more 70m after the tournament. Since the tournament is already paid for. Hehe. My wife will get mad at me for wasting money by not attending.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

lexel_martin said:


> .... But to be honest *archery training gets boring at shorter distances* shooting all yellows. So to change things up and give challenge, we shoot longer distances.


This is so true, even for a 40+ years old guy like me. 

I started shooting 60 yards on my first month of learning archery. I also dumped the elevated rest. I wanted to shoot like the heroes in the movies....no fancy stuffs attached to the bow.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

lameduck said:


> This is so true, even for a 40+ years old guy like me.
> 
> I started shooting 60 yards on my first month of learning archery. I also dumped the elevated rest. I wanted to shoot like the heroes in the movies....no fancy stuffs attached to the bow.


perfectly fine for a recreational archer. have loads of fun. 


Chris


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

chrstphr said:


> perfectly fine for a recreational archer. have loads of fun.
> 
> 
> Chris


Oops, I forgot about that. 
If the OP's daughter is being groomed for Olympic style archery competitions, a training discipline is necessary...even if it feels boring.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

I like that this thread got me thinking a bit. Thanks to Chris and the other coaches. Me and my kids (i dont want to use we.. lol) started doing archery recreationally, and it was actually good for us. Now after a while of doing funshoots together, we get formal lessons for kids. Now I think the problem is, the coaches here tend to default to serious competitions without really consulting with the parents about long term goals, discussing the difficulties and the sacrifices you have to make. Hence the observation of Mr. Chris that I tend to shift from recreational and serious. My kids shoot relatively well so we did some national events for kids with the guidance of the coaches (without proper long term discussion). Personally, what I really want is just to have fun and spend time with the kids. So moving forward, I will have this discussion with my kids on what they want. I will recommend that they do this just for fun. But it is up to them and I will try to support them if they want to get serious.

After a while of doing some national events, I get to talk with other national level archers, I realized how difficult it is and don't want my kids to experience what they have gone through. I hope they decide to do this with me recreationally. lol

Now I'm thinking of firing the coach... lol. joke only. I will also discuss with him the long term goals to be clear.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

lexel_martin said:


> Now I think the problem is, the coaches here tend to default to serious competitions without really consulting with the parents about long term goals, discussing the difficulties and the sacrifices you have to make. My kids shoot relatively well so we did some national events for kids with the guidance of the coaches (without proper long term discussion). I will have this discussion with my kids on what they want. I will recommend that they do this just for fun. But it is up to them and I will try to support them if they want to get serious.


As an archery dad of a competitively minded almost-16 year old, I would highly recommend that the coach lead this conversation with your kids with you in the background to listen and help clarify if needed - if you're talking more than your kids and coach combined you need to shut up! This helps to avoid you accidentally trying to lead your kids (into you living vicariously through them) but you're still there to ensure the coach doesn't lead your kids (with their own personal agenda) to make realistic goals that your kids truly want. I believe that at age 10, any goals made are likely more guidelines than anything so please be flexible with your child. If they choose the competive path, it is a lot of work that no one casually watching archery on TV will ever appreciate. Remember goal setting is important to know where you want to go but revisiting and revising those goals is as important as the goals themselves. The goals will definitely be subject to change by your kids, your own personal/financial circumstances, etc.

In my experience for my son, yes my family has made time and financial sacrifices to afford buying equipment, paying for coaching, travel, etc. to enable my son to shoot at the level he wants. For us, going to Nationals is now our family summer holiday until he leaves home. Sometimes his motivation wanes (don't we all coast at work from time to time?) and sometimes he can't wait to get outside to shoot - both are part of the journey. As his coach says "training is hard work"...this is so true! Will he ever shoot in the Olympics? Who knows and I really don't care either way as archery is his sport and it's his choice to make in life - I'd much rather spend the money on archery or some other physical activity for him. So long as he's being honest with himself, his coach and his parents and what he wants, it's all good to me.

Sorry if I'm sounding preachy...just my 2c


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Maggiemaebe said:


> As an archery dad of a competitively minded almost-16 year old, I would highly recommend that the coach lead this conversation with your kids with you in the background to listen and help clarify if needed - if you're talking more than your kids and coach combined you need to shut up! This helps to avoid you accidentally trying to lead your kids (into you living vicariously through them) but you're still there to ensure the coach doesn't lead your kids (with their own personal agenda) to make realistic goals that your kids truly want. I believe that at age 10, any goals made are likely more guidelines than anything so please be flexible with your child. If they choose the competive path, it is a lot of work that no one casually watching archery on TV will ever appreciate. Remember goal setting is important to know where you want to go but revisiting and revising those goals is as important as the goals themselves. The goals will definitely be subject to change by your kids, your own personal/financial circumstances, etc.
> 
> In my experience for my son, yes my family has made time and financial sacrifices to afford buying equipment, paying for coaching, travel, etc. to enable my son to shoot at the level he wants. For us, going to Nationals is now our family summer holiday until he leaves home. Sometimes his motivation wanes (don't we all coast at work from time to time?) and sometimes he can't wait to get outside to shoot - both are part of the journey. As his coach says "training is hard work"...this is so true! Will he ever shoot in the Olympics? Who knows and I really don't care either way as archery is his sport and it's his choice to make in life - I'd much rather spend the money on archery or some other physical activity for him. So long as he's being honest with himself, his coach and his parents and what he wants, it's all good to me.
> 
> Sorry if I'm sounding preachy...just my 2c


Appreciate this. Thank you very much!


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

Update: my daughter scored 919/1440 today all at 70m. Definitely a bit windy so it was a struggle to keep the grouping centered.

No more 70m tournaments for my daughter for the next few years.

Key learning from this: this is a fun experiment to do but is not recommended for all the reasons stated by the coaches here.

Now we go back to short diatance shooting.

Thank you all for the comments and advise.


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## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

lexel_martin said:


> Hello mr kevin williams? We are currently shooting at belarmino. My kids are being mentored by coach syd fraginal. I believe you know each other?


Absolutely! Syd was my coach and best friend while I was in the Philippines. Tell him Sir Kevin says hello.


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## lexel_martin (Sep 18, 2017)

kevwill said:


> Absolutely! Syd was my coach and best friend while I was in the Philippines. Tell him Sir Kevin says hello.


Sure, will do. More than being a coach, he is actually very fun to be with. Never a dull moment with him.


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## kevwill (Sep 12, 2015)

lexel_martin said:


> Sure, will do. More than being a coach, he is actually very fun to be with. Never a dull moment with him.


Yes. I still tell people the the best archery advice I ever got was when Earl Yap told me "Work with Syd Fraginal." During tournaments, he always managed to find just one thing for me to focus on that made all the difference.

And I remember my favorite bit of advice from Syd. I once asked him if I should switch to fat arrows when shooting indoors. His response: "No.  Just shoot your X10s better." 

Here's Syd and me at the 2017 Philippine National Outdoor Archery Tournament, where I won the Masters Division.


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