# What happened to all the 23" risers?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Does the manufacturers just expect all the young ladies entering our sport to shoot 25" handles?

Searching for a brand new 23" ILF handle these days is very frustrating. So few options. IIRC, nearly every high-end ILF riser used to have a 23" version. They are nearly impossible to find now.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Spigarelli Explorer still comes in 23" I think and a 24" version of the Vanquish might be coming soon.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Explorer is a nice riser for the $ but still not a top of the line riser. 

I guess Hoyt and W&W and Samick all gave up on high-end 23" risers. PSE is the only one left.

The market is either ignoring young ladies, or forcing them to go to longer, heavier risers. Pretty sad really.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Quick look at lancaster shows
Ww inno cxt
fiberbow 5.3
Pse x appeal
Fivics srv
samick athelete
spig explorer

we are down to intermediate I suppose with the last three, so definitely a deficit in the high end, and a pretty obvious lack of a domestic option. Hoyt has missed the bus on both the smaller frame individuals, not just ladies, and the orangutans.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

I propose you might modify your assertion a bit - finding a 23" riser that's in stock, affordable, and good quality is frustrating.

Lancaster lists fourteen 23" risers currently:
Mybo Rio Supercast
Fivics SRV
SF Forged+
Raven Prestige FX
Fiberbow 5.3
SF Axiom
Samick Athlete
Win & Win Inno CXT
Cartel X-Pert
Spigarelli Explorer
Samick Privilege
Samick Mizar
PSE X-Appeal
Hoyt Excel

Of these, the Raven, the Fiberbow, the Samick Athlete, the Inno CXT, the Cartel X-Pert, the Samick Privilege, and the Hoyt Excel are listed as in stock in 23". Having seen the SF Axiom, Cartel X-Pert, and the Samick Privilege risers in-person, I don't view them as good value for the money. The Fiberbow and Inno CXT are quite expensive, and the Samick Athlete is more than most beginners would want to pay. So, that brings the number down to two. The Raven is an unknown quantity - I don't know anyone who has one. That leaves just the Hoyt Excel. 

So, even though there are many "offered", the real choice is pretty limited by availability, affordability, and quality.

Now, the Mybo and Forged+ are new this year in 23", so when they become available they might be OK options along with the Excel, but who knows if/when that will actually happen?

-Kent W.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

Maybe it's because they are concentrating their efforts on the 27" risers.... and who's to blame for that? 

JK - Win & Win has a few good 23" - Inno CXT and SF Forged+ plus Spiga.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Maybe because people just don't buy high-end 23" risers anymore?

Stabs are lighter now, limbs can be too, 25" risers are getting lighter and limbs are becoming available in super short. So overall mass with the 25" riser could be less than the 23" of yesteryear?
Who was the last pro to shoot a 23" to an Olympic medal?

Personally I see the 27" becoming more "normal" with the 25" for smaller archers. That is if the big H wants to progress the tech.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Maybe it's because they are concentrating their efforts on the 27" risers.... and who's to blame for that?


Well, as a guy with one of the longest draw lengths in the sport, and the owner of the very first 27" riser that ever existed in the U.S., and who still shoots a 25" riser, I guess I fail to see the point behind the surge in 27" risers.

But that's off topic...

High end 23" risers. There are too few. It's a surprise to me, and rather disappointing.

On that list of 14, I see exactly two I'd consider:

Win & Win Inno CXT
PSE X-appeal

And neither are currently in stock.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Wait...what 27" risers? 

Hoyt has none in ILF, and there's only the Luxor (in LH) from anyone else.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Well, as a guy with one of the longest draw lengths in the sport, and the owner of the very first 27" riser that ever existed in the U.S., and who still shoots a 25" riser, I guess I fail to see the point behind the surge in 27" risers.


I think you need to persuade Sky to make the TR7 in 27". It'd go from the top of my wish list to ... uhh ... the top of my wish list! Interpret as you will... 

I agree with you on the high end 23" risers though - The PSE and the Inno CXT are really the best on the list, although Fivics does appear to have put a lot of thought into the SRV riser, which seems to be used by a few of the archers from China. 

-Kent W.

-Kent W.


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## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

I found a really nice LH 23" green fusion Hoyt GMX for Tyler. Saw another one last month. Yes, they are really hard to find. And we have a 23" W&W LH Inno X-lite, bought that one from a lady in Ireland. I suppose they are good investments. Maybe the companies haven't been to a JOAD program lately. Loads of new shooters, and many of them wanting quality gear to beat up bigger kids.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Maybe the companies haven't been to a JOAD program lately


It would seem so. I'll add it to the list of "really bad timing" items that coincided with the archery movies of 2013...

Kent, my idea for SKY would have been to have a TR-3 23" riser, a TR-5 25" riser, and a TR-7 27" riser of the same basic design.

So much for this staff shooter's influence. LOL...

Add that to the list of things I suggest that nobody listens to. ha, ha.

Of course, I'm the same guy who tried to convince David Sosa that he needed to make his DAS riser ILF-compatible. I must really be out of touch with the market. LOL.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Incidentally, what's this Sky Target Supreme riser they're listing in the Sky price list? A 21" riser is what it says, but I don't see any other description or photos anywhere on the site. Surely that would be a pretty nice higher-end bow for small-stature shooters.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

williamskg6 said:


> Incidentally, what's this Sky Target Supreme riser they're listing in the Sky price list? A 21" riser is what it says, but I don't see any other description or photos anywhere on the site. Surely that would be a pretty nice higher-end bow for small-stature shooters.


Where are you seeing that?


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Where are you seeing that?


http://www.skyarchery.com/sky_bow_pricing1.pdf

Scroll to the last page.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

williamskg6 said:


> http://www.skyarchery.com/sky_bow_pricing1.pdf
> 
> Scroll to the last page.


Huh. That's news to me... I'll have to look into it.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

I took a break when 23 and 25 were becoming standard and grew up from 10 onwards wishing for good 23 inch at intermediate level risers were the norm (back then they weren't until I was big enough for a 25). I was expecting, when I returned, to see 23, 25 and 27 being norm.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, it appears that the "newer is always better" crowd is winning, and there are now more 27" risers than 23" in the high end.

I just don't get it. What's a young lady looking to compete for a spot on Jr. USAT supposed to shoot? Once again, half our archers are essentially forgotten.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

Exactly, and as a junior male (as I was) a 23 works well when younger too!


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## jtremolo (Feb 11, 2009)

As an engineer, I never understood why it was so difficult to trim an inch from the riser above and below the grip/shelf to make a 23". I wouldn't think it would be more difficult than adding an inch to make a 27". Doing so would allow a company to field a range of sizes with common parts and design, without having to redo all the R&D into the riser geometry, structure, materials, etc.


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## kakend (Oct 30, 2007)

I have both GMX and Fiberbow in 23" and am happy with the quality of both. I built one as a 68" and one as a 66" I have a 30"ish draw length and they both work just fine. I like how the 23" risers are just a bit stiffer and sometimes a little lighter, and in the case of the Fiberbow 5.3 much lighter!

Have a great day,
Kasey


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jtremolo said:


> As an engineer, I never understood why it was so difficult to trim an inch from the riser above and below the grip/shelf to make a 23". I wouldn't think it would be more difficult than adding an inch to make a 27". Doing so would allow a company to field a range of sizes with common parts and design, without having to redo all the R&D into the riser geometry, structure, materials, etc.


You might be surprised how much goes into growing or shrinking a riser. Working with Jim on the TR-7 was an eye-opener for sure. A lot more to consider than just the length.


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## LittleJP (Nov 4, 2012)

Do people need 27' risers? I don't think there are that many people that need 72' bows..Isn't that if you have a 30' draw, at the very least?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

John, just a little FYI Jim is planning on a 23" TR7 I know its not the pricing your looking for with the JOAD but it's coming!!!




Dewayne


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

LittleJP said:


> Do people need 27' risers? I don't think there are that many people that need 72' bows..Isn't that if you have a 30' draw, at the very least?


70" bow with mediums, 72" with longs, 68" with shorts. Lots of folks like those choices, and with a 29" draw a 70" bow is smoother than a 68", or without sacrificing speed by going with 25/ longs.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I will never own a 27" riser with long limbs...I tried it once and it felt like a wet noodle!!!


I think the 27 is just a hype thing.


Dewayne


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Explorer is a nice riser for the $ but still not a top of the line riser.
> 
> I guess Hoyt and W&W and Samick all gave up on high-end 23" risers. PSE is the only one left.
> 
> The market is either ignoring young ladies, or forcing them to go to longer, heavier risers. Pretty sad really.


When I asked why Hoyt doesn't have a 27" ILF riser I was told by someone who generally knows the score that Hoyt wasn't selling all that many 27" Formula risers and was moving away from them

with the SS limbs you get a 64" bow on the 25" riser

but You are right-I have lots of 14 year old girls-most are shooting Fantom risers with short limbs but I have two using 23" factor and another a 23" NEXUS riser

its better for them outdoors to shoot the shorter risers-better cast


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The idea that an archer with a 29" draw needs even a 70" bow is pretty preposterous to me. I've shot all my best scores with a 70" or 71" bow, with a 32.5" draw. 

Folks make the mistake that it's all about total bow length, as if every set of limbs is built the same way. They are not. If someone needs a smoother draw, then why not get a smoother set of limbs? Don't just assume the limbs you have now are the smoothest they make, or that every other set is just as smooth at they are. There's also the idea of working the limb properly. An archer shooting 29" draw will hardly get into the working part of a 70" bow, much less a 72" bow. 

Take advantage of the bow design. Get into the working part of a limb. There is a point for every draw length where a certain riser/limb combination will be ideal. Generally, that's just before a limb begins to "stack." You get all the advantage of working the "meat" of the limb, but still aren't into the stack of the limb.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DeWayne, 27" risers aren't hype for guys who draw past 31". Indoors, I'll prefer a 72" bow if I can get it.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

I see Archery Torque is listing fewer 23" risers as well, now down to just the Tropics :http://www.archerytorque.com/recurve-bow/risers/TROPICS-ALUMINUM-RISER


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

jtremolo said:


> As an engineer, I never understood why it was so difficult to trim an inch from the riser above and below the grip/shelf to make a 23". I wouldn't think it would be more difficult than adding an inch to make a 27". Doing so would allow a company to field a range of sizes with common parts and design, without having to redo all the R&D into the riser geometry, structure, materials, etc.


If it was only "trim an inch" and "add an inch", you were right, but it is not so easy, at all ... the standard geometry may work for a 23", but is difficult to adjust to the 27" without getting 11" BH and 1.6 kg total weight . Then you'll have minimum process quantities, and a mould to make for carbon versions, for ILF risers. 

For Formula risers, they are listed as 25" and 27", but in relationship to height of the window they are 23" and 25" risers. So practically the HPX 25" is a 23 inch riser to all effects (BH included) if used with short or extra short limbs. 

I have in my club several boys and girls and one lady using 23" risers at present. They use the EXE (Big Archery) equivalent of the Raven (very good value for the money), the Axiom (formerly KAP T-Rex) and the Bernardini Nilo 23". My daughter used the Explorer 23 1st generation when she was 12, and second generation is still on top around, and she has used the FB5.3 at World Target Championships last year. 
Getting LH 23 risers may be a littlel harder, but frankly for RH versions choice is wide enough.


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## minnie3 (Jul 28, 2009)

i bought the 23" excel as i found there were few options available to me here. 
watched the used market for some time also. would have preferred a 23" barebow riser though.
my DL is just under 24" and after my 23" mizar beginner bow.i found i struggled with a 25" riser/short limbs 66" bow. (cast wise), so went to higher weight better quality short limbs.
even reaching the limb tips when stringing a 66"was difficult. 64" no problem, and much better performance.
would still like a 23" barebow riser one day though.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

Hi to John and others on this thread;
I checked and we've got 8 of the Inno CXT 23" risers in stock, but no PSE Appeal 23" at this time. Our 23" Appeal order with PSE is showing a 5/1/14 delivery date. We do our best to offer quality gear for everyone at all price ranges by investing a great deal in inventory on hand for immediate shipping. We analyze sales figures to forecast how many of each product we should have on hand at any given time to be able to serve recurve archers at the highest level possible.

If there are risers or bows that we aren't stocking, please let me know and we'll look into it. As of now, it seems like there are ample choices for archers with shorter draw lengths including ILF Takedown bows as short as 60" (19" Titan II riser), 62" Hoyt Excel 21" riser and many others at 64" with 23" risers available at all price/performance levels. 
Thanks for bringing this to my attention... Rob


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rob, it's a darn shame that Hoyt chose to stop producing the GMX in 23" and that we cannot get a WinAct or WinEx quality riser in 23". Those are two I would use a lot for my students. The W&W Inno CXT is a bit pricey, and I'm not 100% sold on all carbon risers. PSE X-Appeal is a good option (several of my students use this already) but often is not in stock. 

With Outdoor Nat's coming up, I have three archers who will need upgrades to quality 23" risers very soon. Right now, I'm drawing a blank.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Zenit 23"?

Still available last I checked. Not the newest but you can't argue the quality.

-Grant


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## ppayne (Jul 13, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Hi to John and others on this thread;
> I checked and we've got 8 of the Inno CXT 23" risers in stock, but no PSE Appeal 23" at this time. Our 23" Appeal order with PSE is showing a 5/1/14 delivery date. We do our best to offer quality gear for everyone at all price ranges by investing a great deal in inventory on hand for immediate shipping. We analyze sales figures to forecast how many of each product we should have on hand at any given time to be able to serve recurve archers at the highest level possible.
> 
> If there are risers or bows that we aren't stocking, please let me know and we'll look into it. As of now, it seems like there are ample choices for archers with shorter draw lengths including ILF Takedown bows as short as 60" (19" Titan II riser), 62" Hoyt Excel 21" riser and many others at 64" with 23" risers available at all price/performance levels.
> Thanks for bringing this to my attention... Rob


Thank you for looking into this Rob, very appreciated indeed. I bought a Samick Ultra Agulla through Las about a year and half ago, a special order since this iconic riser was not in the catalog. The reason why I knew they were available is that I had communicated with Samick and they had confirmed that they had the Ultra Agulla in stock in both lengths, 25 and 23 inches. At the time, I wasn't aware that the 23 inch would have been the better option for me so the 25 inch riser was chosen but as mentioned, they had 23in risers in stock. 

Granted, this was some time ago but possibly an option for 23in risers offering at LAS perhaps?

Pascale


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not sure where I'd direct this parent to order a 23" Zenit... :/

I would love LAS to start carrying the BEST risers. Both Olympic, and barebow.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Not sure where I'd direct this parent to order a 23" Zenit... :/
> 
> I would love LAS to start carrying the BEST risers. Both Olympic, and barebow.


Best Archery has discontinued the Zenit 23 since a couple of years already, but at same time they have resurrected the Zenit 25 Bare Bow, that is a top seller for Bare bow archers in Italy at present. So, presently they make 25" risers, only ( Mercury, Zenit and Zenit BB)

Soon you will see another new riser from Italy, similar in geometries to the Zenit, that will be suitable for recurve and bare bow style, too. It will start in 25" only, by September, but 23" is also planned in one year from now.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

John, I have a buyer checking on an exact date for 23" PSE Appeal Risers that are already on order. (1 Blk, 1 Red)

Other great choices for 23" ILF Risers in addition to the W&W Inno CXT and PSE Appeal include: 
Fiberbow 6.3 Carbon Riser in 23" (4 in stock) $649
Samick's Athlete Riser in 23" (multiforged & CNC Machined) Red & Black in Stock $369
Raven Prestige FX Machined ILF Riser in 23" (Blue & Red in stock) $189

There are several ILF economy 23" risers from W&W SF and Samick that are $150 or less for your beginner to intermediate youth or female archers. 

Sales of the 23" risers are minimal when compared to those in 25" lengths, especially in the higher end price ranges. Having said that, we currently have over $10,000 worth of 23" risers in stock to choose from.

I'll keep everyone posted on when the 23" Appeal Risers will be available. Hopefully this reassures everyone that ladies, youth or short-draw archers still have plenty of great options to choose from.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thanks Rob. That's good to know.

The most urgent need I have is a young lady who is coming from a Hoyt Excel, and she has a custom Loesch grip on it that I'd like her to be able to keep - very frustrating that there isn't a 23" GMX she can go to and slap that now-discontinued Loesch grip on... 

I've looked at that Athlete riser for them, but just not sure what kind of grip solution that puts us into at that point.

I wish more riser manufacturers would get on the same grip standard. It's as much a consideration, if not moreso, than any other single feature of the riser. Particularly when you're dealing with young female archers. They are so tactile-sensitive that changing grips is a bigger deal to them than most men.

It's unbelievable to me that companies as prestigious as Hoyt and W&W have chosen to ignore our smaller statured archers. It's no wonder we need a women's excellence program.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Thanks Rob. That's good to know.
> 
> The most urgent need I have is a young lady who is coming from a Hoyt Excel, and she has a custom Loesch grip on it that I'd like her to be able to keep - very frustrating that there isn't a 23" GMX she can go to and slap that now-discontinued Loesch grip on...
> 
> ...


It took me and others campaigning for 3-4 years to convince Hoyt and PSE to build short draw target compounds. 

I heard the magic number is 500 units guaranteed just to start production. 

So, it's possible. Just difficult.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beast, with all the cadet-aged archers we're seeing at Outdoor Nat's these days, you'd think they would sell the snot out of 23" risers. I guess they've all just been convinced they need 25" risers or something. I don't get it.

I draw 32.5" and shoot a 70" bow most of the time. My daughter draws 29" and shoots a 66" bow. We must be SOOO behind the times. LOL.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ....
> I wish more riser manufacturers would get on the same grip standard. It's as much a consideration, if not moreso, than any other single feature of the riser. .....


USA and Korean manufacturers don't understand the advantages of standardization until they are forced to it. They all think that a propertary grip wil give them an advantage in keeping their clients. From the other end, Italian manufacturers first and other after started from the idea of compatibility in grips. So, Spigarelli 1300, 1301, 2001 VBS, Vision, Explorer, Best Zenit and Moon, now SKY TR7 and the new coming Gillo G1 can all share the grips with original Hoyt Avalon one. This made and makes easier to people to switch from one riser to another. Curious to see that another market standard was again started originally by Hoyt ... and abandoned by them.

By the way, in Belek WC last year, one or more of the Korean women were shooting 23" risers... .


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Vittorio,
Any idea why Spigarelli abandoned that grip fitment with the BB and 650 Club? My Moon grip definitely doesn't fit those risers.

-Grant


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## minnie3 (Jul 28, 2009)

my 23" excel had the same big standard grip as my eclipse had. much too wide and chunky to be usable to me (i have a very small hand and just under 24" DL), so i removed them and shoot without one.


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