# Beiter out nocks - why?



## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

Just a question that's been on my mind for awhile.

One of our more illustrious coaches here in the Los Angeles insists that her students use Beiter out nocks, pretty much exclusively.

She's against pin nocks - well, any other kind of nocks, really.

Arrows among her students are pretty much only X10s or ACEs. All higher end FITA competition students.

Just wondered if there were any explanation for it (other than that they're more visible at 50m or more)...


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## agillator (Sep 11, 2011)

Perhaps because, in addition to being a good consistent nock, if you have a robin hood you usually sacrifice just the out nock (~$1) and not the shaft (>>$1). They have saved many a shaft for me.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

pin nocks will keep from destroying arrows. Insistence on only one nock is just silly.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

It makes the back end slightly weaker. Theory is that it will give advantages over bad releases.

A lot of the top archers, mainly Koreans but some others too, use out nocks.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Huntmaster said:


> pin nocks will keep from destroying arrows. Insistence on only one nock is just silly.


On long, stiff spine arrows pin nocks destroy more arrows than others. Back hit drives the pin and it cracks the end. I've always found beiter in nock best in deflecting back hits, surprisingly.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

Out nocks on Ace and X10 are a tight fit will not move, pin nocks often get moved as a result tight groupings. neither offer more protection then the other although if you have a deflection and damage a nock the out nocks work out cheaper no bent pins to replace. Out nocks means less to go wrong.


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## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

Interesting stuff!

Well it finally occurred to me actually to ask one of the students, and what I got back was this:

a) weakens the arrow by extending the length between the end of the shaft and the nocking point and 
b) they're considerably faster than pins.

so a) means that one can get away with buying a stiffer-spined arrow sooner, and then using it for longer as one moves up in weight.


of course, using a sight mounted or otherwise extended clicker and shooting longer arrows will also extend the useful life of an arrow, but the going other way - cutting them down makes them stiffer, right?

and another point just occurred to me - let's say you want to buy a set of used ACEs or X10's and they've been cut an inch too short for you and they're one group too stiff for you - use out nocks and hey presto, longer (and weaker) arrows!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

agillator said:


> Perhaps because, in addition to being a good consistent nock, if you have a robin hood you usually sacrifice just the out nock (~$1) and not the shaft (>>$1). They have saved many a shaft for me.


If anything, the Beiter out nock funnels arrows into the shaft of the arrow in front of it. It is not a strong nock for protecting arrows. Pins are the best way to protect arrows by a longshot, and usually what I recommend for recreational archers who have to buy their arrows with their hard-earned cash. 

Pros can afford to use Beiter Out nocks because a smashed arrow isn't the end of the world.

I agree that any coach that insists on just one nock is being difficult. Although there is a lot of evidence that the Beiter Outnock has been very, very successful in international competition (nearly the only choice of nock by the Korean teams), other nocks have proven more than capable as well - in particular pin nock systems. With Beiter pin nocks now, there really is no reason not to try what suits you or what you need to tune your setup.

Having said all that, I prefer Beiter Out nocks for my Nano Pro's, and the arrows I have now are by far the most accurate arrows I've ever shot. I tried pin nocks in mine, but needed the Out nocks to get the tune I wanted.

Only bias I could see against pin nocks is that they could bend and prove inconsistent if not replaced (common with recreational archers) so an Out nock is either straight, or gone.

John


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## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

+1 on that, John. The student I just referred to added that it's just easier, during a competition, to check they're all right. Because either they're straight, or smashed.

And at $1.33 or whatever a nock, they're just putting it all down to the cost of competition. What with tungsten points running at over $10 each... not to mention the cost of shafts, which they pretty much all buy in lots of three dozen / a thousand bucks a throw...

and you know what, come to think of it, I'd be paying easily that much on components, reloading competition ammunition, over the course of a typical season. Oh, and have nothing left but holes in paper after that....


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

zal said:


> On long, stiff spine arrows pin nocks destroy more arrows than others. Back hit drives the pin and it cracks the end. I've always found beiter in nock best in deflecting back hits, surprisingly.


Surprisingly I found out different. With the beiter in nock I think that 1/3 of the time the shaft shattered or splintered. Since I've been using pin nocks I haven't destroyed any shafts, although I have busted almost a dozen nocks. This is the first time i've been using pin nocks, i'm using the heavy duty ones from arrowsmith, maybe that's got something to do with it. I'm also using ace 430 arrows, everyone told me that the pin will just crack the back end but so far I haven't noticed this. Main reason I started using pin nocks, and especially these heavy ones was to get my arrows to tune a bit.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I shoot mainly ace 370 and 430 cut from the back. I've gone trough dozens of in nocks and out nocks when I was using them on same dozens without breaking that many arrows, maybe one in five. With pinouts it seems to be one in two that's cracked in the back. In nocks and outs seem to have one ear missing most of the time so it seems that the construction is deflecting impact very well, with pin nocks they seem to go through and push the pin too.

I think the new beiter pin nocks (not pin-out) seem to be better, I have them on one set and haven't managed to break any arrows yet, only about six nocks.


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## Chris RL (Oct 30, 2011)

I've dinged my Easton pins so much now that I have to grind them down to get them smooth, otherwise they'll scratch up the inside of the pin nocks as I'm putting them on. 

I'm assuming just gentle heat and pull them to remove, right?


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## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

I have tried the asymetric Beiter pin-out nocks, which I bought for durability (I shot the glue-in out nocks last season and ended up smashing a handful). Unfortunately, for me at least, the pin-out nocks developed cracks after shooting 30 shots per arrow at the base (where they join to the pin). I replaced them with Easton G nocks and they seem to be holding up just fine.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i have over the past 8 years shot both exclusively. These are the differences i have found and why i shoot them. 

Pin nocks protect the shaft better than out nocks. I have way more robin hoods with the out nocks than i ever had with pin nocks. However i have destroyed several dozen arrows using both over the years. I tried the pins inside the out nocks, but they do not fit consistently and it did not work. Also this changes the back end weight and spine. 
Any pins that are hit will develop a gouge or scratch that can cut the inside of the nock leading to failure of the nock. You can file them and grind them down, however , then you are changing the weight on the end and changing the spine slightly. If hit, you should replace the pin and toss it. 

The pin nocks make your arrow length 1/4 inch shorter. Out nocks add to the length. 
Depending on if i use stainless steel points (1 inch point) or tungstens (1/2 inch point), I use either nock to shorten / lengthen the total arrow.

Pin nocks will slightly stiffen the back of the arrow. Out nocks will slightly weaken the back of the arrow.

For placement of spin wings, using pin nocks, it is not exactly exact where to position the fletch on the shaft. when using out nocks, place spin wing at end of nock, all will match and it is the correct position. 

lastly i have had numerous pin nocks explode when shooting. Certain colors were worse than others. White was the strongest, and then yellow, never had a blowout with those colors. I can not shoot blue as they crack and then explode after a good bit of shooting. I have never had one out nock explode on me when shooting. They are all strong no matter what color.


I do not glue the out nocks in, I use a small bit of dental floss to hold them in place. 

I have for the last two years shot the out nock though i do keep spare pin nocks and pins in my case. Your mileage may vary. 


Chris


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

i thought i might throw in another idea.

Are the beiter nocking points also encouraged? Do they make a difference?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

zal said:


> On long, stiff spine arrows pin nocks destroy more arrows than others. Back hit drives the pin and it cracks the end. I've always found beiter in nock best in deflecting back hits, surprisingly.


Zal, I hate to tell you this, but with pin nocks, Miranda has never destroyed an arrow. Right before the games she hit one so hard at 70M that it drove the point out and bent the pin but no damage to the arrow at all.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

icehaven said:


> i thought i might throw in another idea.
> 
> Are the beiter nocking points also encouraged? Do they make a difference?


generally they are recommended, as they all come from the same mold. With that being said, a good number of archers have used other brands with great success.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Huntmaster said:


> Zal, I hate to tell you this, but with pin nocks, Miranda has never destroyed an arrow. Right before the games she hit one so hard at 70M that it drove the point out and bent the pin but no damage to the arrow at all.


I have hit several pin nocks so hard indoor at 20 yards that i pushed the pin into the back of the shaft and peacocked the end. But it is the best protection for an X10 over other nock systems.

Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

icehaven said:


> i thought i might throw in another idea.
> 
> Are the beiter nocking points also encouraged? Do they make a difference?


I know Jake Kaminski was using them. I asked him at the trials how he liked them, and how he served them in. Been meaning to learn how to do that for a while now. 

John


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I know Jake Kaminski was using them. I asked him at the trials how he liked them, and how he served them in. Been meaning to learn how to do that for a while now.
> 
> John


Now why was I the only one who missed nocking POINT? Duh. Guess I don't change gears so easy any more :tongue:

I'll add that most just tie one on with end serving.


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## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

My experience with the out-nocks was that they broke very easily, and seemingly not just from impact. I had a couple break just where the out-nock meets the back of the shaft, as if the nock was flexing there. I used them for about a week of heavy practice until I had a dry-fire experience from a nock breaking at that point, and then I got rid as I had lost confidence in them. 

I've used mainly the in-out nocks on my X10's and found that they give fairly good protection. I havent tried Beiter pin nocks for a few years and thinking of going back to them to protect my arrows a bit more. Nothing seems to protect ACEs much at all. Leading up to the World Fields this year I smashed a load at the back from impacts that didnt look too severe when inspecting the damage to the nock, but always the back of the shaft was splintered and cracked. Just a more fragile arrow I suppose.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Huntmaster said:


> Zal, I hate to tell you this, but with pin nocks, Miranda has never destroyed an arrow. Right before the games she hit one so hard at 70M that it drove the point out and bent the pin but no damage to the arrow at all.


I have a bunch of arrows, maybe 60 that I've destroyed in the past years in my storage, as I tend to keep all the spoils of war. Majority of those have pins in them.

But maybe 48-52# and 33" arrow makes a difference.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Maybe consider the role of tighter groups as well...

Out nocks (whether Easton or Beiter) are simply a bit of a throwback to the earliest days of the X10. Korean coaches simply are loathe to change, in general, minor items, once something is proven to work. Hence their continued use of fast flight string, etc.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> Maybe consider the role of tighter groups as well...
> 
> Out nocks (whether Easton or Beiter) are simply a bit of a throwback to the earliest days of the X10. Korean coaches simply are loathe to change, in general, minor items, once something is proven to work. Hence their continued use of fast flight string, etc.


Figured it was something like that - resistance to change... Can't fault the results though.

After having shot Beiter Out nocks since about March, I can honestly say I'm in no hurry to switch back to pins. I've simply never seen groups like this before. I've shot more 57+ 70M ends this year than I can ever recall, plus the grouping at distances as close as 10M on a fita field bunny target is priceless when you're looking at a possible 18 vs. 15 point end...

George, can you confirm whether the X10 out nock and the Beman out nock (for the Carbon Flash) are in fact the same nock? They look identical to me.

John


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## naveedgt (May 9, 2012)

I don't think any of the Korean men were using out knocks were they?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

no, the korean men used the pin nocks. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Interesting. That's good to know.

I can recall asking Beiter for a standard pin nock about 7 years ago. Then they came out with their "pin-out" nock which was so heavy and large that it kinda defeated the whole purpose. Now, finally, they have a dedicated pin nock and I'm sure they are selling 1000's of them as I'm seeing them everywhere. My own daughter uses them in fact. Good for them for finally listening to the customers who used pins.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I switched this summer to Beiter pin nocks. They've been excellent.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Was looking at the Beiter pin nocks at LAS, but for $1.38 each do you receive the pin bushing or is it just the plastic nock portion? If you don’t receive the metal bushing, could not find in LAS Beiter pin bushings. If they don’t make them, what bushing to use with the Beiter pin nocks?


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

I've shot pin nocks for the last 3 years and I have shot good scores with them but they have cost me points as well when they can get slightly damaged pins get bent. The Out nocks have been very reliable so far.

Zbone you have to pay extra for the pin.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Zbone, the pins are made by the arrow manufacturers. The one size Beiter Pin Nocks will fit on most, if not all, pins. AFAIK, it's all, but I avoid making universal statements because there's usually at least one oddball out there.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Zbone, you use the Beiter Pin Nocks with the original pin e.g. Easton pins.


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## icehaven (Nov 30, 2010)

Zbone said:


> Was looking at the Beiter pin nocks at LAS, but for $1.38 each do you receive the pin bushing or is it just the plastic nock portion? If you don’t receive the metal bushing, could not find in LAS Beiter pin bushings. If they don’t make them, what bushing to use with the Beiter pin nocks?


pins are made by the arrow manufacturer since they're specific to the type of arrow. However, any pin nock will fit any pin. Also, pin nocks don't use bushings. 

Do a search for "name of arrow" nock pins. you should find something to fit your arrrow shaft.


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## Zbone (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanx much for the info folks!


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