# Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X



## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Let me preface this with a little of my background. 

I have 5 years experince as an optician (lab and dispensing) 

I was a US navy Opticalman for 4 years went to tech schools in both Great Lakes Il and New london CT. Serviced thousands of pairs of binoculars, hundereds of periscopes, lots and lots of telescopes, numerous navigational instruments. 

4 years experience servicing opthalmic intruments (eye doctors equipments) microscopes, astonomical telescopes, and tons of binoculars. 

2 years experience in laser optics 

As a side note. When I was involved with astonomical telescopes and astronomical optics we had a little joke about newbies just getting into astronomy. The joke was about amateur astronomers obsession with power. Always the question "what power is this" or "what's the most power I can get out of my scope". People who spend their lives working with optics know what I'm talking about. Power is way overrated. 

So here's my question to you all........ 

WHY....WHY ....WHY.. do so many of you guys who are obviously pretty damn intelligent carry around 10X binoculars? My guess is that you have fallen prey to a marketing strategy. 

I've got a slew of reasons most hunters (especially bow hunters) should be carrying 7X, 8X, 8.5X, or maybe even 9X binos. 

I've already heard most of the reasons some of you carry 10X. But Let me hear your reason you carry 10X. 

I'll post the reasons lower power (8X)are better suited for 99.5% of hunting (& 3D) situations after I hear from you all. 

By the way if you've got 10X I'm not advocating you throw them away. But if your thinking about getting a new pair or a second pair you might want to rethink or take a closer look at the power.


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## BayouBob (Apr 9, 2007)

For bowhunting I carry 8's. Just to see if I can tell any real difference I am going to carry some 10's this week. They aren't identical; the 10's are larger bino's so I will probably still like the lighter 8's better. At archery ranges 8 is certainly enough magnification to see the animal fine. I have steady hands so shake isn't a noticable problem for me. One thing I learned through research and was confirmed by my doctor was that as we age the exit pupil size we can use decreases. As we approach 60 we can only use an exit pupil of around 3.5 so the argument of an 8 x 42 being brighter than a 10 x 42 goes out the window. For younger hunters and those who are a little less steady the 8's certainly make more sense. I'll bet your experience can provide some interesting technical info.


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## One eye (Jun 22, 2003)

Elk hunting in the wide open west.
Dan


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## rodney482 (Aug 31, 2004)

I have both 8x and 10x

I like the 8x for FOV and low light and the 10X for a little more magnification.


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## dressed2kill (Sep 10, 2007)

I like my 7x for bowhunting, not to big and plenty of magnification


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## OHIOBUCK (Oct 25, 2006)

I think the 8x is the best all around hunting package. Smaller........lighter.......less motion blur


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I carry 10x for the same reason there's usually a 15-45x spotting scope in my pack. I can pick an antler tip out of the sage, a bedded deers leg out of the oakbrush, and assess horns better with them.

I'll be the owner of some 15x56s shortly...


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## AERO63 (Feb 26, 2008)

I carry 8's...even out here in the West. I like the FOV.

However, basically every area I hunt those 8's turn pretty useless once an animal is spotted. When it's time to get a good look...it's time for the 60X scope!!!


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## swilk (Sep 14, 2005)

I think location you are hunting plays a BIG part in what magnification makes the most sense.

I live and do the majority of my hunting in Indiana .... so I bought a pair of 8x43's. I also use them on my once-yearly trip to Colorado for Elk.

If I lived in Colorado and did most of my hunting there or in another western state I might have chosen differently.


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## huntin1 (Aug 17, 2003)

7X or 8X are more than enough and have a better FOV. I most often use my Leica rangefinder which is 8X, and also have a pair of 8X bino's that I use. I do have a bit of hand shake and 8X works better for me. 

However, I also have a pair of 10X Canon Image stabilized bino's that I use when doing serious glassing. The IS feature is great when the power gets higher.



huntin1


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

I use 10X because the deer here are small and it makes them look bigger. :wink:


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

vichris said:


> WHY....WHY ....WHY.. do so many of you guys who are obviously pretty damn intelligent carry around 10X binoculars?


I used to use 8x binos all the time, and they worked fine. But when it comes to seeing more detail and far away spots, my 10x42 Kahles are hands down MUCH more useful for me while elk and muley hunting. Even at 10x, they provide an incredible amount of light even past legal shooting hours here in Colorado. I've tried them side by side with my buddy's 8x Leupolds, and I wouldn't switch back to 8x if someone gave me the binos......unless I was hunting in much tighter cover.


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

10X42 for me. I like them for everything from glassing for Muleys to picking the woods apart for an Elk in Colorado to sitting in my treestand in western NY checking out every movement I see. They do everything I need in a reasonable size and weight to hang around my neck everyday I am in the woods.


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## WayBeau (Feb 21, 2007)

I've got some 8's that I use. Got a set of 12's (they were free) not too long ago that seem OK. I am interested to hear why more isn't always better though.


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## Fletch Helical (Jul 20, 2004)

I was always under the impression it's not JUST the power but also the exit pupil that makes the big difference. 

I think I'd rather have a pair of 10x56's over a a pair of 8x42's simply because the former offers more magnification and will let in more light than the 8x42's.

For treestand deer hunting a pair of 10x56's is likely overkill. But shooting 3D it will give you a much clearer picture of the scoring rings. 

My understanding is it's not co much JUST the power that is the key. A 10x bino with a very small exit pupil will actually be worse than a lesser power with a higher exit pupil number. The power means nothing if it doesn't let in enough light is the way I understand it.


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## tmolina (Nov 20, 2005)

*ttt*

8X with a larger objective lens say and 8x46. If you divide the power into the objective lens size you will find the exit pupil size so 8 into 30 is a 3.6mm exit pupil. 10 into 42 is 4.2mm exit pupil but 8x46 is a 5.1 mm exit pupil. Bigger is better with an exit pupil. It means 3 things, 1. better light gathering capability 2.better resolution 3. your eyes will see more because the dot of light will cover more of your pupil and you will be able to hold a lower power more steady.
:wink:
TM


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## RockChucker30 (Sep 6, 2007)

I carry 10X42 Swaro EL's, and would not change them for 8X's. I hunt a lot of open farm ground, and the 10X helps me decide if that buck 900 yds away is a shooter I need to go after. I also like that I can watch and classify bucks at longer ranges in the summer. Also, I plan on taking those same binocs out west and buying a good tripod, a swaro doubler, and using them as a stable bino/20X spotter duo. They're perfect for me.


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## OHIOBUCK (Oct 25, 2006)

tmolina said:


> 8X with a larger objective lens say and 8x46. If you divide the power into the objective lens size you will find the exit pupil size so 8 into 30 is a 3.6mm exit pupil. 10 into 42 is 4.2mm exit pupil but 8x46 is a 5.1 mm exit pupil. Bigger is better with an exit pupil. It means 3 things, 1. better light gathering capability 2.better resolution 3. your eyes will see more because the dot of light will cover more of your pupil and you will be able to hold a lower power more steady.
> :wink:
> TM


That is only true if the manufacturer uses the whole lens. Many don't take the time to grind the edges of the lens, then internally choke down the lense so you cant see the blurry edges. One of the things you pay for with good glass.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Fletch Helical said:


> I was always under the impression it's not JUST the power but also the exit pupil that makes the big difference.
> 
> I think I'd rather have a pair of 10x56's over a a pair of 8x42's simply because the former offers more magnification and will let in more light than the 8x42's.
> 
> ...


:wink:Some very good points here. If you have too small of an exit pupil on a 5X optic it doesn't do much good.


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## tmolina (Nov 20, 2005)

*ttt*

Somebody that knows alot more about optics than me said this:
What alot of hunters don't understand about binos is that bigger isn't always better. I garauntee you that you will be using your binos mostly hand held, and some times with just one hand. What good does it do to magnify something 10 times if your eyes can't resolve the image because there's too much movement. 10 X is right at what the human body and average set of eyes can hold steady enough to see and get any kind of detail. Put them on a tripod or steady them on a tree trunk and you get what you really want.....resolution.

TM


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

tmolina said:


> 8X with a larger objective lens say and 8x46. If you divide the power into the objective lens size you will find the exit pupil size so 8 into 30 is a 3.6mm exit pupil. 10 into 42 is 4.2mm exit pupil but 8x46 is a 5.1 mm exit pupil. Bigger is better with an exit pupil. It means 3 things, 1. better light gathering capability 2.better resolution 3. your eyes will see more because the dot of light will cover more of your pupil and you will be able to hold a lower power more steady.
> :wink:
> TM


Along the same lines as the previous............ good points Mr Molina


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

tmolina said:


> Somebody that knows alot more about optics than me said this:
> What alot of hunters don't understand about binos is that bigger isn't always better. I garauntee you that you will be using your binos mostly hand held, and some times with just one hand. What good does it do to magnify something 10 times if your eyes can't resolve the image because there's too much movement. 10 X is right at what the human body and average set of eyes can hold steady enough to see and get any kind of detail. Put them on a tripod or steady them on a tree trunk and you get what you really want.....resolution.
> 
> TM


Also very good........you're starting to sound like me....... Have we talked about this before???


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## stl81969 (Aug 6, 2006)

tmolina said:


> 8X with a larger objective lens say and 8x46. If you divide the power into the objective lens size you will find the exit pupil size so 8 into 30 is a 3.6mm exit pupil. 10 into 42 is 4.2mm exit pupil but 8x46 is a 5.1 mm exit pupil. Bigger is better with an exit pupil. It means 3 things, 1. better light gathering capability 2.better resolution 3. your eyes will see more because the dot of light will cover more of your pupil and you will be able to hold a lower power more steady.
> :wink:
> TM


I always thought that as long as the exit pupil was greater than 4 the set of binos was good for hunting. For light transmition and all that. The personal preference was up to U as far as field of view.

What are the bene's of 8x


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## tmolina (Nov 20, 2005)

vichris said:


> Also very good........you're starting to sound like me....... Have we talked about this before???



tienes razon vichris. But I cheated a little, went back to my memory banks and remembered a post I read before that I learned alot from, so I posted that info here!!!!! :embara:
TM


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## huntnmuleys (Jan 7, 2004)

hell, i switched from 10x to 12x this year. do most of my hunting in the open wyoming prairie. that 12 power has saved me MILES of walking. love em.
am gonna buy a pair of 8s for other hunting, but cant afford it right now, and i really do at least 90% of my hunting in the open.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

tmolina said:


> tienes razon vichris. But I cheated a little, went back to my memory banks and remembered a post I read before that I learned alot from, so I posted that info here!!!!! :embara:
> TM



Cheater :wink: :zip: :tongue:


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

7 X 50 here.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Ok....I purposely didn't mention anything in my original post about the size of the objective lens or exit pupil. I'm glad to see most of you understand the relationship between the two. Multiply the power into the size of the objective and you get the size of the exit pupil. 8 divided by 42 is 5.2....a 5.2 mm dot of light coming out of the eyepiece will more than cover your pupil even under poor light conditions, on an 8X42 bino . 10 divided by 42 is 4.2mm on a 10X42 bino. Give me the choice between an 8X25 with a 3.1 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2mm exit pupil and I'd be a fool to choose the 8X25.....of course I'd choose the 10X42....but are either of those choices ideal? When you couple a smaller exit pupil with magnified movement do you think you're going to get ideal resolution????? Now give me the choice between an 8X42 with a 5.2 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2 mm exit pupil I'll take that big dot of light every time. That bigger dot of light not only covers all of your pupil under almost any hunting condition but also allows for movement and misadjustment of interpupilary distance. You all ALWAYS have your binos set at the perfect interpupillary distance don't you???????? 

The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27. 

Bino's by design are handheld, so it only makes sense to use a binocular that gives you the best possible options while using them handheld. If most of your glassing is from a bluff overlooking a huge expands of land and you glass while sitting then by all means get a tripod and buy a 15X or use a spotting scope. But for that peice of glass that hangs around your neck that you use in MOST hunting conditions..... what's the best option? BTW I love those answers along the lines of "well I hunt out west were you can see for miles"?????? Well I live on earth and I can see for millions of miles with my naked eye completely through our atmosphere and see Mars. How many of you know that you can clearly see the rings of Saturn with only 20X. ..... (the larger the exit pupil the better the resolution.) By the way I live in New Mexico and can clearly see with as much detail as you can.... the same thing you're looking at with 10X...... because I use an optic that gives me excellent resolution and I CAN HOLD IT STILL ENOUGH to take advantage of that resolution. 

Lets talk about hunting conditions. How many of you all are going to tell me you never use your bino with ONE hand. How many of you are going to tell me you can't "see" your heart beat or your breathing cycle when looking through your binos. How many of you are going to tell me you are as steady as a rock with a pack on your back and a bow or gun in one hand as you top a ridge and see movement on the next ridge over. How many of you are going to tell me you are as calm as a lamb when you see a tangled web of antlers on top of that buck or bull. Movement is your enemy when looking through any optic and the more power you try to handhold the more that movement is magnified. You see the question is NOT will the 10X or 12X bino produce good resolution. With most decent optics made today the answer is almost certainly YES they will produce good resolution. The question IS can you hold them steady enough to take advantage of that resolution? 

Just some food for thought for those of you looking to buy a new pair of binos. And see.... we haven't even touched on FOV, matched optics, coatings, or any brand names.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

vichris said:


> ...How many of you all are going to tell me you never use your bino with ONE hand. .


Almost never, at worst I brace the binos on the top cam of my bow and my binos suddenly weigh 9 pounds. Makes it much steadier.



> The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.


Tell me more about this test. We're the two magnification groups looking at the same chart, or different charts? Why were they not allowed to use the preferred methods of steadying themselves?

Isn't 7 mm maximum dilation under nearly total darkness? Isn't something like 4-5mm what the pupil dilation is under morning and evening conditions? 

I guess it comes down to the preferred use. Seems like your preference for 7x helps you *see* things, whereas my preference for more (10x+) is so that I can *find* things. Those with more magnification suit my hunting needs more because when I'm looking for critters I am steady on a tripod, pack, sitting, log, or whatever. By the time I'm close I've already assessed the critter so I don't even use the binos that much at close range, and almost never within bow range. The only exception I can think of is using them to find an antler tip or other means of game identification during a stalk. Seems that I'm steady enough with the 10x to do that, so I'll stick with them.

Now lets talk coatings.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart

Did they try the 10X on the 7X resolution chart? 8X? 9X?

Does that question make sense?

10X50 Burris Signatures for me. No, I can't use them one handed. Might be able to hold them, but definetly cant focus them. But two handed they are my very favorite hunting item I own, bar none.


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## pahuntnut (Dec 17, 2005)

I can tell you why I dont use 10x. 1. at that power you will start to pick up hand tremors and cause eye strain if you glass a lot. 2. the lower power gives me a larger exit pupil if the objective lens are the same size. this leads to 3. lower power will give me better twilight viewing than higher power.


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## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

vichris said:


> Ok....I purposely didn't mention anything in my original post about the size of the objective lens or exit pupil. I'm glad to see most of you understand the relationship between the two. Multiply the power into the size of the objective and you get the size of the exit pupil. 8 divided by 42 is 5.2....a 5.2 mm dot of light coming out of the eyepiece will more than cover your pupil even under poor light conditions, on an 8X42 bino . 10 divided by 42 is 4.2mm on a 10X42 bino. Give me the choice between an 8X25 with a 3.1 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2mm exit pupil and I'd be a fool to choose the 8X25.....of course I'd choose the 10X42....but are either of those choices ideal? When you couple a smaller exit pupil with magnified movement do you think you're going to get ideal resolution????? Now give me the choice between an 8X42 with a 5.2 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2 mm exit pupil I'll take that big dot of light every time. That bigger dot of light not only covers all of your pupil under almost any hunting condition but also allows for movement and misadjustment of interpupilary distance. You all ALWAYS have your binos set at the perfect interpupillary distance don't you????????
> 
> The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.
> 
> ...


 Good post. Thanks.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

*Answers*

Answers to Bobmuley and skynight.

Because resolution tests are done at the same distance for each power they have designed resolution charts for powers from 4-40. I don't remember the distance. A resolution chart is a small pattern with lines spaced at different widths for different powers. See one here..... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_USAF_Resolution_Test_Chart

In order to get a true test of the resolution of an OPTIC the optic is trained with a tripod or other device, on the portion of the resolution chart that matches the power of the optic. Then the image is projected on a screen so that it can be clearly seen. Now we are talking about an optic here NOT a human eye.

So each power optic is tested for resolution with the matching power resolution chart.

Now the test I described in my previous post was with proven resolution optics with the "human factor" added in. The test was to determine how well an average person could see with a HANDHELD pair of binos at different powers. The reason that the subjects were not allowed to lay prone or use a steadying device is because they already know the optic is proven.....they're looking for human induced failure.

If had the luxury of sitting on my butt and propping my elbows up on my knees everytime I see something of interest or steadying my binos on a tree trunk I guess I might choose higher power too. But this is hunting......grass is tall, branches or brush are in the way, he's a big bull and I'm excited, I just topped the ridge and I can feel my heartbeat in my eyeballs, I'm on an uneven slope etc....you get my drift.

Bob you are correct 7mm in total or near total darkness. And yes about 5 mm for twilight conditions. Here's what you probably are not aware of. Your pupils are being flooded with light BUT the critter you are trying to see is in the deep shadows........magnification is an even bigger enemy now. Here's an example.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

*Answers*

Answers to Bobmuley and skynight.

Because resolution tests are done at the same distance for each power they have designed resolution charts for powers from 4-40. I don't remember the distance. A resolution chart is a small pattern with lines spaced at different widths for different powers. See one here..... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_USAF_Resolution_Test_Chart

In order to get a true test of the resolution of an OPTIC the optic is trained with a tripod or other device, on the portion of the resolution chart that matches the power of the optic. Then the image is projected on a screen so that it can be clearly seen. Now we are talking about an optic here NOT a human eye.

So each power optic is tested for resolution with the matching power resolution chart.

Now the test I described in my previous post was with proven resolution optics with the "human factor" added in. The test was to determine how well an average person could see with a HANDHELD pair of binos at different powers. The reason that the subjects were not allowed to lay prone or use a steadying device is because they already know the optic is proven.....they're looking for human induced failure.

If had the luxury of sitting on my butt and propping my elbows up on my knees everytime I see something of interest or steadying my binos on a tree trunk I guess I might choose higher power too. But this is hunting......grass is tall, branches or brush are in the way, he's a big bull and I'm excited, I just topped the ridge and I can feel my heartbeat in my eyeballs, I'm on an uneven slope etc....you get my drift.

Bob you are correct 7mm in total or near total darkness. And yes about 5 mm for twilight conditions. Here's what you probably are not aware of. Your pupils are being flooded with light BUT the critter you are trying to see is in the deep shadows........magnification is an even bigger enemy now. 

Here's an example. Bob I promise I'm not trying to talk you out of your 10X. But you might be suprised with what you can see at even a little lower power, when the image is not moving.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Stanley said:


> 7 X 50 here.


Great choice Stanley. I still have a pair too.


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## HANGum HIGH (Mar 9, 2007)

vichris said:


> Ok....I purposely didn't mention anything in my original post about the size of the objective lens or exit pupil. I'm glad to see most of you understand the relationship between the two. Multiply the power into the size of the objective and you get the size of the exit pupil. 8 divided by 42 is 5.2....a 5.2 mm dot of light coming out of the eyepiece will more than cover your pupil even under poor light conditions, on an 8X42 bino . 10 divided by 42 is 4.2mm on a 10X42 bino. Give me the choice between an 8X25 with a 3.1 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2mm exit pupil and I'd be a fool to choose the 8X25.....of course I'd choose the 10X42....but are either of those choices ideal? When you couple a smaller exit pupil with magnified movement do you think you're going to get ideal resolution????? Now give me the choice between an 8X42 with a 5.2 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2 mm exit pupil I'll take that big dot of light every time. That bigger dot of light not only covers all of your pupil under almost any hunting condition but also allows for movement and misadjustment of interpupilary distance. You all ALWAYS have your binos set at the perfect interpupillary distance don't you????????
> 
> The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. *They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart.* All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. But the only problem I have is, I.m not trying to count lines on a chart. I'm counting points on a deer or elk. Big difference. I don't have to have the binos 100% steady to count those and know if it is something I want to go after. No matter how steady you can hold 7x, they still can't stretch out as far as 10x, 12x or 15x. Most my glassing is done by a tripod so I don't have any problems.


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## 458win (Jun 8, 2007)

If your looking through glass at the brink of dark then yes exit pupil should be as large as possible. However the overwhelming majority of my hunting is done when the light is good so 10x42 Swaro EL's get the job done and I can look at finer details. If all I got time for is a one handed operation look then guess what?? My mind is made up Im going to shoot him And not sure about you but if you want a set of 7x50's (or bigger) hanging around your neck all day go for it. My 10x42's are lighter.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

HANGum HIGH said:


> Very interesting. But the only problem I have is, I.m not trying to count lines on a chart. I'm counting points on a deer or elk. Big difference. I don't have to have the binos 100% steady to count those and know if it is something I want to go after. No matter how steady you can hold 7x, they still can't stretch out as far as 10x, 12x or 15x. Most my glassing is done by a tripod so I don't have any problems.


Great.............. but MOST hunters don't carry a tripod. We want to see something quickly that may be moving or in deep shadows. I'm talking to the guy who can only afford one pair of optics and has to get the most out of what he carries. Since MOST hunter carry either a 10X or an 8X that is what I'm addressing. I sometimes carry a spotting scope if I'm going to scout or hunt a large open area. 

I count points, judge tine length, try to figure spread, and judge size too...............see.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

458win said:


> If your looking through glass at the brink of dark then yes exit pupil should be as large as possible. However the overwhelming majority of my hunting is done when the light is good so 10x42 Swaro EL's get the job done and I can look at finer details. If all I got time for is a one handed operation look then guess what?? My mind is made up Im going to shoot him And not sure about you but if you want a set of 7x50's (or bigger) hanging around your neck all day go for it. My 10x42's are lighter.


Wow that Swaro 8.5 x42 is probably the best piece of glass on the market today. Wish I could afford it. Personally I carry an 8X42 roof prism.


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## moethedog (Aug 27, 2007)

8x all the way...First of all they gather more light (unless you have a huge objective lens on the 10x..which makes them very heavy)

And....at 500 yards 8x make an animal seem 62.5 yards away....10x makes them seem 50 yards away...The difference is negligable....

At 300 yards the difference is 37.5 yards vs 30 yards...

If I can see a deer at 50 yars I can see him at 62 yards...

The difference is in light gathering in lowlight conditions....8x wins..

There you go...

Keith


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

vichris said:


> *Multiply* the power into the size of the objective and you get the size of the exit pupil. Multiply? I get 336.
> 
> 8 divided by 42 is 5.2.... actually 8 divided by 42 is 0.19047619


However.......I know what you mean.:wink:

Exit pupil is just one of the factors that influence a bino's ability to gather light. Quality of the glass, prisms, coatings.....all have an influence on how much light can be gathered. Four years ago, my buddy had a pair of 7x50's. From camp right at dusk, he was trying to scope out an open ridgeside that is 1.7 miles away. I asked if he saw anything out, and he said "no, it's way too dark to even see the side of the hill". I had just bought my 10x42 Kahles binos, so grabbed them and went over to the same spot so I could see the ridgeside. Scanned the open terrain and didn't see any elk, then scanned the edge of the timber and there was an elk feeding right on the edge. I called him back over to check it out and he couldn't see anything through his binos. So we switched. What a difference! He was right, it was like total darkness through his.....couldn't even see the side of the hill. It was already 1/2 hour past sunset, but we stayed there another 15 minutes glassing that opening and counted 25 elk before we couldn't see anything.

These same attributes (glass, prisms, coatings) also influence the quality of the view in bright sunlight, shadows, and a combo of both as well. I don't care what power or objective you have, if you have cheap binos you'll never see as clearly or bright as you will with high quality.

I'm not sure if I've ever tried to use my binos one-handed. If you need the binos to see, you've probably got enough time to steady them. If your heart's a'thumpin because of that big bull you see........then he's already close enough to not need the binos at this point. You might want your rangefinder, but my rangefinder is 7x and I still try to use two hands even with it if I have time.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

moethedog said:


> 8x all the way...First of all they gather more light (unless you have a huge objective lens on the 10x..which makes them very heavy)
> 
> And....at 500 yards 8x make an animal seem 62.5 yards away....10x makes them seem 50 yards away...The difference is negligable....
> 
> ...


Now you can make the same argument, 7 vs. 8. 7 wins. 

I agree 100% with 5MB, quality optics make a huge difference, its like comparing apples to oranges.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

I carry 10X42 Zeiss Victory and would not change them for 8X's. I also use them one-handed most of the time - unless glassing really far out - then I use two hands and sometimes stablize them using my hat brim or elboes on my chest.

I have tried 7X, 8X, 10X, and 12X. I have tried Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Brunton, Nikon, Pentax, Vortex, and many other brands - in both low light and good light. I am frugal and really want to be sure I get the best value for my needs.

I hunt a lot of open land in the west and the 10X is invaluable out here. Also, I can hold 10X steady, but I can't hold 12X steady.

High end binos can be very light. My Zeiss Victory are super light - probably lighter than most less expensive 8X binos.

By the way, I believe Swarovski Els are the best binos money can buy and they are worth every penny. I just couldn't get myself to spend that much when I could get the second best binos (used) for much less money. What really sets the high end binos apart from the rest is the lens coatings. When I look through any of the top of the line binos (Swarovski El, Zeiss Victory, Leica Ultravids), it is like looking through night vision glasses. You can actually see better (with more light) through the binos than with your naked eye! This is not true for the lower quality binos like Nikon, Pentax, Vortex, etc. BTW, it sounds like from 5MilesBack experince, Khales are also excellent at light gathering.

If you are talking cheap binos, then I would agree, you should get lower magnification and the largest objective lens that is not too heavy for you to use one handed.

Now I also get to hunt the dense woods of the Eastern US and I also like the 10X for that. If you have high quality, light binos, the 10X is always a plus.

7X50 might be good for night viewing for inexpensive binos, but they are going to be too heavy for most hunting conditions.

VIChris - you claim you are the master of bino knowledge, but your comments don't convince me you've really tested the best binos in low light.

Ray


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

vichris said:


> Answers to Bobmuley and skynight.
> 
> Because resolution tests are done at the same distance for each power they have designed resolution charts for powers from 4-40. I don't remember the distance. A resolution chart is a small pattern with lines spaced at different widths for different powers. See one here.....
> 
> ...


I can see that the test is setup to test optics, not "spotability". 

I spotted this in a "side-by-side" comparison. A friend of mine has the 8.5x42 ELs and I have the 10x42ELs. He tried to measure the distance, but his 1000 yard rangefinder wouldn't pick it up; it would pick up a rock about 150 yards shy of the buck as 980-something. He was having a hard time spotting the buck, so I gave him my glass until I got the spotter setup on him. He could clearly see the buck. I don't know if you'll be able to see the buck in the picture or not.

I'm truly not trying to be argumentative. I'm just saying that different glass is better suited for some applications. Pick one that suits your style.


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## MightyElkHntr (Dec 13, 2006)

BayouBob said:


> For bowhunting I carry 8's. At archery ranges 8 is certainly enough magnification to see the animal fine. I have steady hands so shake isn't a noticable problem for me. One thing I learned through research and was confirmed by my doctor was that as we age the exit pupil size we can use decreases. As we approach 60 we can only use an exit pupil of around 3.5 so the argument of an 8 x 42 being brighter than a 10 x 42 goes out the window.


True to a degree. I too use lower power for 80% of my glassing (7x42) - but for different reasons than what you stated. A lower power with a large objective gives a larger exit pupil which will in turn give you better color definition, a wider field of view, better light gathering, and extended eye relief. All of these things can help you make the decision on your trophy, especially at those crucial early-late times when they are active.... 

I also use a pair of 10x42's for getting a little closer to the critters that live out here in the wide open west, and I use 15x56 on a tripod and a scope 80mm to really decide if a buck/bull/bear is good enough to make the effort to go in after or not.

It is true that as we age, our eyes lose their ability to enterpret colors and the entry (pupil) restricts, but having bigger glass doesn't affect that very much if at all - the reason? Most glass has a larger exit pupil than our eyes, which gathers and concentrates light and color better than our eyes can naturally do it for themselves...so a 10x42 or 10x50 will have a 4.2 or 5.0mm exit pupil, which will relieve your optical sensors from overworking and will give you more eye relief so you can sit for longer periods behind the glass without fatigueing. 

Check Vortexoptics.com or Swarovski.com for further details from the real experts... I've dealt with 13 (or more) different optics companies for the last 15 years and they know how to make your vision even better through good optics.


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## MightyElkHntr (Dec 13, 2006)

Hey VChris, was that surprise the buck in the trees in the background or the little one out in the shadow? (Red is the little one, blue looks to be a fork - wish I had a little more power :wink: jk)


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## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm with 5MB on this one. If i was fighting in a war and had a rifle in one hand and bino's in the other then the benefits you speak of might be of importance, but most of my use is while I am sitting or able to use a steady rest. Also if my hearts a thumping as you described I probably wouldn't be able to hold anything still enough to see through. The whole light gathering thing amuses me also [as a Whitetail hunter who set's in a tree], if you need your glass to see something then it's to dark to shoot anyhow. JMO


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

Great thread lots of good thoughts and opinions.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

I'm just about to pick of my second set of Swaros. I've got 10x42 EL's now that I love, and I am now buying a pair specifically for bowhunting and work in the timber. Its either going to be the 8x32 EL's or 7x42 SLC's. I would just get the SLC's without question. I've used them quite a bit and love everything about them, except the weight (nearly 34oz). I do a lot of tracking and that's a lot of weight to carry around. I love the EL's and wanted to give the 8x32 ELs a shot before I buy. Lots of great reviews on both. I'm sure the 8x32 EL's won't be quite as bright as the 7x42 (unbelievable btw) but very close, and in a much lighter and trimmer package. Leaning towards the 7x42 at this point. Wish they made a 7x42 EL.

If anyone has any strong opinions on these Binos please let me know before I go to the gun shop this PM. :darkbeer:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Meleagris1 said:


> ...If anyone has any strong opinions on these Binos please let me know before I go to the gun shop this PM. :darkbeer:


Not a strong opinion at all...

Why not the 8.5x42 ELs? They'd be better performers in the timber than the 8x32 and the weight is right between the 8x32 ELs and the 7x42 SLCs at 28.9 ounces.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Bobmuley said:


> Not a strong opinion at all...
> 
> Why not the 8.5x42 ELs? They'd be better performers in the timber than the 8x32 and the weight is right between the 8x32 ELs and the 7x42 SLCs at 28.9 ounces.


FOV mainly. Its 420' on the 7x42's and 420' on the 8x32's. The 8.5 EL's are 390. Also I do really want the lower power. I really don't want any more than 8's, in fact I really want 7's but since the 32mm have the large FOV I am considering them. I swear I'd buy a 6 power if Swaro made one. I've been using the 7x42's all week and they are truly amazing, its like someone turned a light on at dusk. 6mm exit pupil will do that I guess.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Meleagris1 said:


> FOV mainly. Its 420' on the 7x42's and 420' on the 8x32's. The 8.5 EL's are 390. Also I do really want the lower power. I really don't want any more than 8's, in fact I really want 7's but since the 32mm have the large FOV I am considering them. I swear I'd buy a 6 power if Swaro made one. I've been using the 7x42's all week and they are truly amazing, its like someone turned a light on at dusk. 6mm exit pupil will do that I guess.


Have you looked at the Leica's?

7x42 ultra HDs...lighter than the SLCs at 27 oz. 420' field of view.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Bobmuley said:


> Have you looked at the Leica's?
> 
> 7x42 ultra HDs...lighter than the SLCs at 27 oz. 420' field of view.


I have, both the Ultravids and the Ultravid HD's. I didn't like them as much as the Zeiss FL T 7x42's. Something weird about how they fit me, I know they are great glass, I just didn't like them. The Zeiss I do like however, and they have a 450' FOV which leadds the pack, but I have heard less than stellar things about their customer service (and Leica for that matter) so I am trying to stick with Swaro.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Meleagris1 said:


> ... I have heard less than stellar things about their customer service (and Leica for that matter) so I am trying to stick with Swaro.


I have some of those too, but fortunately I've never needed any service from them. 

I love talking about optics, where's Vichris when I need him? 

How about coatings, glass, porro vs. roofs, etc?


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> BTW, it sounds like from 5MilesBack experince, Khales are also excellent at light gathering.


I actually spent about 6 months looking at binos before I bought the Kahles. I do consider the Swaro's, Zeiss, and Leica's to be "top tier"....with top tier pricing.:wink: I consider the Kahles to be mid-grade, however, at the top of the mid-grade class. I compared the top three and many others with the Kahles many times over those six months in just about every light condition I could. If I had to rate each as their best attribute I would say that the Swaro's are best for contrast, the Zeiss had the best brightness, and the Leica's had the best clarity. Keep in mind.....in this class they are all *great* in all categories, but the differentiations above are what I found if I had to tell them apart.

Now, given all this, the reasons I bought the Kahles were (1) I thought they were CLOSE in all those categories, (2) I really couldn't find $1000+ difference between them for my eyes, and (3) I got a nice discount on them.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

*Binos`*

Who makes either a 7x 50 or 8 x 50?


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Swarovski makes a 7x50 and an 8x56. Both are outstanding low light binos, but not something you will want to carry all day. That's why I am getting the 7x42's. Low light viewing with any of these three is outstanding, and you really have to look through them to appreciate the huge "sweet spot" they have.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

5MilesBack said:


> I consider the Kahles to be mid-grade, however, at the top of the mid-grade class.


Hi 5MB.

I feel the same way about Brunton - their top-end models are very good and a lot less money than the European binos. And well worth trying out before anyone spends over $1000.

By the way, if you want to buy the highest quality new binos, $1000 seems to be the minimum price for anything really good. Of course, you can buy used to save some money.

Ray


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

One other point about that larger exit pupil. Yes its great that there's better light gather capability. Couple that with just the fact that that bigger dot (5mm +) covers your pupil thats in reality (during daylight) only open to 1-3 mm so much more than an exit pupil thats say 4 mm. Its much more forgiving to movement.

I also have some of those same stories with close buddies who were using 10X bino who could not keep their glass steady enough to even see that a big buck was even a buck.

All of that being said, we all gotta admit that we have just an excellent variety of binos available. Some that are, QUALITY wise, far beyond what I would have dreamed of when I got into this business. I still maintain that most hunters would be better off with a good to excellent pair of 8X binos. 

That being said if your style of hunting lends itself to using higher power binos AND you understand that you are really going to need to either brace yourself, sit, or lay prone then by all mean use them. Personally I carry a mid quality 8 power and a good, small spotting scope with tripod for those instances where I'll be glassing big country. I always spot more game than everyone I hunt with and its almost always with my handheld binos. Probably 80% of the time I can do a real close evaulation of the trophy quality of the game and the other 20% I break out the spotting scope. 

One last thing.....I would recommend that if you are looking at buying a binos.....if at all possible purchase them somewhere where you can pick and chose the exact one your going to lay your money on.

I have seen flaws in even high end binos that most folk don't notice. Practice this with your own binos.

The 1st thing I do before I look through a bino is look AT it. Hold them at arms length pointed at a light source, eyepieces toward you. Look at the exit pupil.....is it a perfectly round dot or does it have a flat area on one side of the dot? Look carefully while you move them up and down side to side. I've seen some with two flat sides. If it does reject them. Look IN the dot. Is the dot evenly bright or does it have a shadowy box in it? Or does it have a shadowy dot in the middle of the exit pupil. Reject those too. Now I'm not saying reject the brand just ask for a different pair. If you see that in several pairs then I'd probably reject the brand or model. Look at the coating in good light make sure its even and no splash or oiley looking spots. Look through the objective lens into the body make sure theres are no foreign objects and that the prisms and mounts properly seated and are painted evenly black. Make sure the objective lense is not chipped or has reflective looking areas near the edges. Any of those things I would reject also. Now look through them.

Wish I could spend more time here. I'll post more as I have time.


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## MightyElkHntr (Dec 13, 2006)

VICHRIS,, you still didn't respond to the photo question? Is there a hidden buck back there? 

the rest, all of the brands recommended so far in this thread will have good clarity, color transmission, "round" when looking back through the objective at arms length, etc, etc... you need to weigh the value of your dollar here too, and I wouldn't discount the "other" brands such as the Nikon's, Vortex, Brunton, Burris, etc. Their premium glasses often are within a couple points using the same charts the top tier ($) glasses are rated on.

Set your price, then look over a lot of glass before settling. MHO.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Meleagris1 said:


> I'm just about to pick of my second set of Swaros. I've got 10x42 EL's now that I love, and I am now buying a pair specifically for bowhunting and work in the timber. Its either going to be the 8x32 EL's or 7x42 SLC's. I would just get the SLC's without question. I've used them quite a bit and love everything about them, except the weight (nearly 34oz). I do a lot of tracking and that's a lot of weight to carry around. I love the EL's and wanted to give the 8x32 ELs a shot before I buy. Lots of great reviews on both. I'm sure the 8x32 EL's won't be quite as bright as the 7x42 (unbelievable btw) but very close, and in a much lighter and trimmer package. Leaning towards the 7x42 at this point. Wish they made a 7x42 EL.
> 
> If anyone has any strong opinions on these Binos please let me know before I go to the gun shop this PM. :darkbeer:


Both are very good. I'd lean toward the 7 x 42 also between those two. Theres just nothing..nothing that will subsitute for a big peice of glass at the end of any optic. These days coatings have come a long long way......but you can only do so much. A big light hole with great coatings is the way to go...to a point....before weight become a factor.

Now if that 8x32 had a bit larger objective say a 36 or 38 then I might start leaning the other way.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

MightyElkHntr said:


> VICHRIS,, you still didn't respond to the photo question? Is there a hidden buck back there?
> 
> the rest, all of the brands recommended so far in this thread will have good clarity, color transmission, "round" when looking back through the objective at arms length, etc, etc... you need to weigh the value of your dollar here too, and I wouldn't discount the "other" brands such as the Nikon's, Vortex, Brunton, Burris, etc. Their premium glasses often are within a couple points using the same charts the top tier ($) glasses are rated on.
> 
> Set your price, then look over a lot of glass before settling. MHO.


No it was actually the big buck to the left. I was scouting with 5 other friends for elk when I spotted these two and then 2 more to the left of these two. Everyone saw the little forky because he was moving around. I took these pics after I had move up about 500yds. 

As you can tell I'm trying to avoid talking about "brands" but I agree with everyone. Theres four groups of optics and $$ pretty much determines the quality. I would avoid the lowest tier. Some optics in the 2nd and even 3rd tier belong in the 1st, quality wise, but as a whole $$ is a good indicator.


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## SwietsRick (Dec 23, 2005)

I guess because I can, I have several sets , Vortex, Zeiss, Bushnell, Swarovski, Leica, Brunton, Nikon, Pentax when there free. you have a proud range of choice for each hunting situation.... Mountain, flatland, deep Woods..... etc.:wink:


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

vichris said:


> Both are very good. I'd lean toward the 7 x 42 also between those two. Theres just nothing..nothing that will subsitute for a big peice of glass at the end of any optic. These days coatings have come a long long way......but you can only do so much. A big light hole with great coatings is the way to go...to a point....before weight become a factor.
> 
> Now if that 8x32 had a bit larger objective say a 36 or 38 then I might start leaning the other way.



I picked up the 7x42's last night.  I am a big fan of low power optics being a bigwoods whitetail hunter. However I also hunt out west and for Elk country the 10x42 EL's are my optics of choice. They are outstanding. Yes you do need to brace yourself with the 10's, but IMO you also need to steady yourself with the 8's. The 7's are IMO the only ones in the bunch that I consider truly functional offhand Binocs. The difference is amazing. Like I said, I would have bought 6x42's if Swaro they made them. 

All boils down to different tools for different applications. I do agree that your "average joe" is best served by a quality pair of 8x42's.


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## willphish4food (Nov 3, 2007)

*to moethdog...*

That, my friend, is the best post yet. Bring it back to the basics. Vichris, excellent thread. thanks. Shake is my worst enemy for the glassing I do.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

willphish4food said:


> Shake is my worst enemy for the glassing I do.



You should really check out the 7x42's. They are even steadier than the 8's. I think you would be amazed at the difference.


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## stl81969 (Aug 6, 2006)

This is a great thread. I am in the market for a new set. I use brunton 10x42 now. What is the difference in coating -roof -porro etc.what are the gains? Where I hunt the woods are very thick. Being able to distinguish whats in the thick stuff is the difference I like.


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

I didn't post on this thread originally because I knew the direction it was headed. (And I agree) :wink:

I carry Swaro 10x42's. I picked them out because I knew I would be using them sometimes for elk out West. The VAST majority of my hunting is Midwest whitetail hunting in woodlots. If given the chance to make the choice again I would choose the 8x30's for the very reasons mentioned above. 
My hunting buddy and I did a side-by-side comparison with our optics in CO this year. His binos are Swaro 8x30's.
I honestly couldn't tell much difference in clarity or magnification but I could definately see an improved ability to hold the binos steady while in hand with the 8x30's. With my 10 powers I usually prop my elbows on my knees, rest them on a tree trunk, or some other method to get a steady picture. 

With that in mind the 8x30's are significantly lighter weight to carry. Many 
3d's don't allow magnification larger than 8x anyway so why buy the 10x's?

If I had that chance for a "do over" decision at my purchase time I'd pick the 8x30's over the 10x42's.

Rx


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

stl81969 said:


> This is a great thread. I am in the market for a new set. I use brunton 10x42 now. What is the difference in coating -roof -porro etc.what are the gains? Where I hunt the woods are very thick. Being able to distinguish whats in the thick stuff is the difference I like.


I hunt whitetails in the big woods around Errol NH and the 7x42's above are made for that kind of hunting. I would absolutely get 7's, and obviously the best glass you can afford.


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## stl81969 (Aug 6, 2006)

ttt
This thread can't be done yet!


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## C-Dubya (Dec 5, 2007)

*I am enjoying reading this . . . .*

ttt.

So, any more "budget minded" oriented binos for those that have families and such in 7x and 8x power?

Chuck


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## stl81969 (Aug 6, 2006)

stl81969 said:


> This is a great thread. I am in the market for a new set. I use brunton 10x42 now. What is the difference in coating -roof -porro etc.what are the gains? Where I hunt the woods are very thick. Being able to distinguish whats in the thick stuff is the difference I like.


ttt


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## Jwillman6 (Jun 4, 2007)

I have live in Colorado for almost 14 years and I like 10x without question. I grew up in Alabama and Texas and for many years carried a pair of 8x Zeiss binocs. When I go home and hunt I still prefer the 10x and I have a lot of experience with both. No matter what someones qualifications are you still can not tell someone what they like, especially if they have vast experiences with both choices.


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## Bullhound (Feb 5, 2004)

*Well, I just tested a few...........*



Just so happens that I was recently trying to decide which binos I really wanted. I am fortunate to have some close friends that were willing to part with their glass for a while so I could do my own testing. I did this over a two week time period during low light, mid day, & no light! I glassed in the rain and fog as well! I wanted to see what *FELT GOOD TO MY EYES* and helped *ME* see. I wanted the most comfortable thing for my eyes period. I had Swaro EL 10x32, Swaro EL 10x42, Swaro 8.5X42 EL, Leica Trinovid 10x42, Leica Ultravid 10X42, Leica Ultravid 10X32, Leica Ultravid 10X25, Gold Ring 10X42, Zeiss conquest 10X40, Zeiss victory 8X42, and a few others that I had around that I wouldn't wipe my arse with........... Let's be straight. Most binos will do a decent job in perfect conditions. Few do the job worth a darn in non perfect conditions (rain, fog, low light, major shadows, etc.). For my eyes, the 8x stuff did not get the job done compared to the 10X, and I definitely found out that I want the 42 objective, PERIOD! The smaller objective did not cut it for me. Again, I was fortunate enough to be able to try these side by side for an extended period, which allowed for alot of use side by side. 

I came away with two that stood out hands down, and made my eyes *WANT* to use them. They were the Ultravid 10X42 and the EL 10X42. The light gathering ability is definitely better with the Ultravid so I bought them. The light gathering ability is tremendous. I do happen to think that there is also a differrence in how a person actually uses their glass, and what is comfortable to me might not be best suited for the next guy. The feel in your hand means something to, believe it or not, and some like a different fit in their hand. 

I actually sent emails to the guy on here that sells Vortex because I was thinking of giving the Razors a shot, but never got a reply..........


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

C-Dubya said:


> ttt.
> 
> So, any more "budget minded" oriented binos for those that have families and such in 7x and 8x power?
> 
> Chuck


Define budget minded. $400, $800, etc.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

I have both, 8 and 10.. in the east, hunting the woods, I most definitely prefer the 8's.. If I'm in a field stand with a looong view and a rifle in hand, I'd take the 10's.. Out west, it depends.. I took my 8's for elking this season, as I knew the other with me would have his 10's.. :lol: Normally if I was soloing out there, I'd take 10's.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> I'm with 5MB on this one. If i was fighting in a war and had a rifle in one hand and bino's in the other then the benefits you speak of might be of importance, but most of my use is while I am sitting or able to use a steady rest. Also if my hearts a thumping as you described I probably wouldn't be able to hold anything still enough to see through. The whole light gathering thing amuses me also [as a Whitetail hunter who set's in a tree], if you need your glass to see something then it's to dark to shoot anyhow. JMO


I think you are missing at least part of my point here. That larger exit pupil is not just about light gathering. Think of it like this......your pupil is like a BB. The exit pupil is like a ring. More power smaller ring. So the bb is in the ring and its easy to keep it in the middle of the ring under good conditions (sitting with knees propped up, on tripod, good light, calm) If you sit in a tree stand this may be your situation all of the time.
So the BB stays the same when light is normal but grows to a bigger size when there's less light. Now add in movement to the bb (which maybe bigger now due to less light and many other factors, think of things which can cause dilated pupils) AND add in movement to the ring due to wind, human stress, holding the ring with one hand etc..... so now you've got both the ring and the bb or bigger ball moving.... the bigger the ring the easier it is to keep the the ball in the ring..... the smaller the ring the more the movement appears exaggerated...... now double that..... 2 rings with 2 bbs because you have 2 eyes...........I think you get my drift


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## C-Dubya (Dec 5, 2007)

Bobmuley said:


> Define budget minded. $400, $800, etc.


$200 to $400


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

C-Dubya said:


> $200 to $400


Check out the Nikon Monarch ATB's. I've never sat in front of them for hours on end so I have no idea what kind of eye strain they give you, but as far as a decent pair of binos, they aren't bad for the price. I'm sure there are others out there as well in this price range, but I haven't tried many of the others.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

5MilesBack said:


> Check out the Nikon Monarch ATB's. I've never sat in front of them for hours on end so I have no idea what kind of eye strain they give you, but as far as a decent pair of binos, they aren't bad for the price. I'm sure there are others out there as well in this price range, but I haven't tried many of the others.


I've evaluated the Nikon Monarch ATB. Its a very good glass for the $$. Nikons quality control is very good too. Vortex, Leopold, Brunton, all make good bino's for the money also. I've seen some QC issues with both Brunton and Vortex (more with Brunton). I would hand pick ANY optic I was going to put $$ on.


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## stl81969 (Aug 6, 2006)

What about the differences in coatings??? roof prism ,porro- What does this mean? Are there any benefits to one .vs the other?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

C-Dubya said:


> $200 to $400


Bushnell Legend would be towards the top of your price range and have excellent features. I don't know why more folks don't use them (except for the fact that every whitetail bowhunter on TV uses Nikons.).


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

HANGum HIGH said:


> Very interesting. But the only problem I have is, I.m not trying to count lines on a chart. I'm counting points on a deer or elk. Big difference. I don't have to have the binos 100% steady to count those and know if it is something I want to go after. No matter how steady you can hold 7x, they still can't stretch out as far as 10x, 12x or 15x. Most my glassing is done by a tripod so I don't have any problems.


Counting lines on a resoulution chart is far more difficult than counting points on an elk or deer. So yes........ there is a huge difference. And it's no wonder you have to carry a tripod. 

You've done a great job of PROVING my point here.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

vichris said:


> ... I would hand pick ANY optic I was going to put $$ on.


Good point. Before I had quality optics I had "middle of the road optics" and just by looking through three or four sets of the same power, model, and brand you could see a big difference in clarity. :smile:


I wonder how far most (other) people are looking? Its not uncommon for me to be looking for miles through mine...hence the affection for higher magnification (10x+).


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## Steeler Fan (Aug 10, 2006)

Great thread!! One thing though that needs to be cleared up and is a very common mistake when dealing with optics is the fact that optics do not gather light.....they have no such magical power! They do however transmit light. Most people confuse the two. The quality of the lenses, the coatings etc, etc all play a major roll in how much light is actually transmitted to the human eye. Each lens will reflect and absorb some light as that light passes through the lense. This is why quality glass, quality construction, and quality coatings are so important. Many people assume that big objectives will be brighter than smaller objectives and this is just not always true. Quantity has a hard time making up for quality. 

I use different glass for different hunting. I have 10x50 Burris Sig Series for scouting, stable hunting situations where I have a rest etc. They are big and heavy...or sort of heavy anyway. I also have 8x43 Pentax DCF SP's that are my go to binos after using the big Burris for everything and them being a pain for most hunting situations. I must use two hands with the 10x but I can glass nicely with one hand with the Pentax since they are lighter and more forgiving. I use 6x32 leupold Katmai's for bowhunting...easy to use with one hand, plenty bright, large field of view...all important when trying to mimimize my movement in a tree while bowhunting. Plus they are small enough that they do not get in the way. All three have their place in my arsenal. 

Resolution is important to me...I use binos to magnify details....so does most everyone else. With high resolution comes true color contrast and clarity....all things we want. If you can't hold the binos steady, all that resolution you paid for is lost. For most that means lowered powered binos are a better choice. For those that don't care about resolution, buy the cheapest bubblepack bino's in 12-16 power and be happy with all the money you save by not buying high end optics. Most of these will spot game for you when needed.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Steeler Fan said:


> Great thread!! One thing though that needs to be cleared up and is a very common mistake when dealing with optics is the fact that optics do not gather light.....they have no such magical power! They do however transmit light. Most people confuse the two. The quality of the lenses, the coatings etc, etc all play a major roll in how much light is actually transmitted to the human eye. Each lens will reflect and absorb some light as that light passes through the lense. This is why quality glass, quality construction, and quality coatings are so important. Many people assume that big objectives will be brighter than smaller objectives and this is just not always true. Quantity has a hard time making up for quality.
> 
> I use different glass for different hunting. I have 10x50 Burris Sig Series for scouting, stable hunting situations where I have a rest etc. They are big and heavy...or sort of heavy anyway. I also have 8x43 Pentax DCF SP's that are my go to binos after using the big Burris for everything and them being a pain for most hunting situations. I must use two hands with the 10x but I can glass nicely with one hand with the Pentax since they are lighter and more forgiving. I use 6x32 leupold Katmai's for bowhunting...easy to use with one hand, plenty bright, large field of view...all important when trying to mimimize my movement in a tree while bowhunting. Plus they are small enough that they do not get in the way. All three have their place in my arsenal.
> 
> Resolution is important to me...I use binos to magnify details....so does most everyone else. With high resolution comes true color contrast and clarity....all things we want. If you can't hold the binos steady, all that resolution you paid for is lost. For most that means lowered powered binos are a better choice. For those that don't care about resolution, buy the cheapest bubblepack bino's in 12-16 power and be happy with all the money you save by not buying high end optics. Most of these will spot game for you when needed.


GREAT POST..... especially the last paragraph. RESOLUTION is key.

That being said I would differ with you on light "gathering" vs "transmission". The term "light gathering capabilities" is fairly common "optics" nomenclature that primarily has to do with the objective lens/mirror of just about any optic. The bigger the objective, the more light that is "gathered". The quality of glass, coatings, matched prisms/optics, flat black internals coatings etc... help "transmit" more of that gathered light and prevent it from being scattered.


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## B3AV3R (Apr 19, 2006)

Wow, great thread. I'm shocked that I can't think of anything to add. Most everything has been covered...


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## Steeler Fan (Aug 10, 2006)

vichris said:


> That being said I would differ with you on light "gathering" vs "transmission". The term "light gathering capabilities" is fairly common "optics" nomenclature that primarily has to do with the objective lens/mirror of just about any optic. The bigger the objective, the more light that is "gathered". The quality of glass, coatings, matched prisms/optics, flat black internals coatings etc... help "transmit" more of that gathered light and prevent it from being scattered.


I look at it more in the sense that a larger objective for example has the ability to transmit more light...objective lenses are curved and focus light into the main tube....again relative to exit pupil. The larger the objective, the more light that can be transmited. Gather to me is a verb...meaning to go out and get or seek. Objectives don't have that ability. They can however transmit what light is available to the rest of the lenses and your eye. The light that is naturally available is all the light that will be transmitted, minus absorbtion and reflection ofcourse. I think we are saying the same thing, just using a bit different terminology to get there. I am in no way questioning your knowledge and experience...I'm just an armchair optics buff who loves using them in the field and is fascinated with "good glass" :smile:


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## nstrut (Jun 8, 2005)

Don Beaver said:


> Wow, great thread. I'm shocked that I can't think of anything to add. Most everything has been covered...


You aren't kidding. I'm glad I tokk the hour or so it took me to read and re-read the thread. Tons of good information here if you really sit back and let it sink in. I've really enjoyed it and learned a ton!

:thumbs_up


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## Jwillman6 (Jun 4, 2007)

I grew up hunting in Alabama and I used 8x30 Zeiss for many years. I now use 10x42's and I live in Colorado. I prefer 10X in Colorado and when I go home to hunt also.


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## posco (Feb 27, 2007)

I like 8xs. Less eye fatigue and I find the viewing more stable. I have 8x30 Zeiss.


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## krieger (Jan 24, 2007)

I tested them all 8 yrs ago when I bought a pair.I got the Leica 10x42's....they were the clearest for me by far....Nothing came close.

Every time I glass something I'm happy I spent the money.They are on my bino strap for over 80 days per year, and I wouldnt trade them for anything.10X is better for me, I do open country fox spotting also....much better than 8x's imo..


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Bobmuley said:


> Good point. Before I had quality optics I had "middle of the road optics" and just by looking through three or four sets of the same power, model, and brand you could see a big difference in clarity. :smile:
> 
> 
> I wonder how far most (other) people are looking? Its not uncommon for me to be looking for miles through mine...hence the affection for higher magnification (10x+).


I'm glad they work well for you and I can see there are others here that prefer 10X. 

My main point here is that for those who use a 10X handheld binos you should understand that your are AT or in many cases BEYOND the limitation of what you can handhold and your eyes are able to resolve,....... what that instrument has the capability of. It's almost like the little old lady who has a Lamborghini but only drives it to church on Sundays @ 30 mph. She's got a high preformance car but can't take advantage of it because of her own limitations. If you are going to use 10X binos understand your own limitations. Acknowledge that many times you are going to NEED to sitdown prop your knees up and steady that glass. If you are ok with that and it fits your hunting style then by all means use them. Most HUNTERS are better served with a little lower power that they can standup with....hold with two hands.....look over high grass and brush, and clearly resolve without HAVING too MOVE and steady them on a tree or rock that may obstuct their view. 

Believe me I understand the need for higher power. That is why I own a spotting scope. It's why I have a clamp on window pod that I keep in my truck. I purposely do not carry 10X binos so that I force myself to use the proper instrument in those case where I need higher power. The thing is though that at least 90% of the time I do not need to resort to higher power. That may just be my hunting style. Your style may be different.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

vichris said:


> Believe me I understand the need for higher power. That is why I own a spotting scope. It's why I have a clamp on window pod that I keep in my truck.


True, but when I'm 5 miles from the truck and already have a pack full of "the essentials", adding a spotting scope to it may or may not be what I want.

This is how I look at it: I can't even count the number of times I have wished for higher power binos while carrying 8x, but since going to 10x I haven't wished I was carrying a lower power.........even once.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

5MilesBack said:


> True, but when I'm 5 miles from the truck and already have a pack full of "the essentials", adding a spotting scope to it may or may not be what I want.
> 
> This is how I look at it: I can't even count the number of times I have wished for higher power binos while carrying 8x, but since going to 10x I haven't wished I was carrying a lower power.........even once.


Excellent post 5MilesBack. I had not kept up on this thread until now.

I also have no problem holding 10X binos steady with one hand and I find it hard to believe I am extrordinary. Now if I'm glassing way out (past a mile), I will try to steady my binos more than if I'm glassing at things less than a mile.

I just finished my late archery season in Southern California and I spent all day for about 8 days mostly glassing through my 10X42 Zeiss Victory binos. I'm sure glad I had top quality optics or I would have had headaches after a few hours of this. And if I had 8X binos, I would have not seen many of the deer I did see. I typically spotted 10 deer per day and all were at least 500 yards away when I first spotted them. And none were moving. Blacktails are extremely slow movers.

Ray


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> I also have no problem holding 10X binos steady with one hand and I find it hard to believe I am extrordinary. Ray


I think that is pretty extraordinary. I consider myself pretty steady, and to TRULEY utilize the extra magnification of the 10's (Swaro EL's), I have to either brace myself on a tree, or throw my pack down and lean back against it, with my elbows on my knees. Then they are fantastic, but if I had to use them offhand only, I would never bring the 10's and would never recommend then to anyone for that application. 

Its funny the comment about 10's and never wanting less power. I have the 10 EL's and the 7x42 SLC's, and when I am using the 7's, I never find myself wanting more power. In fact I can say without a doubt that I enjoy using the 7x42's more than any Binoc I have ever used.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Meleagris1 said:


> Its funny the comment about 10's and never wanting less power. I have the 10 EL's and the 7x42 SLC's, and when I am using the 7's, I never find myself wanting more power. In fact I can say without a doubt that I enjoy using the 7x42's more than any Binoc I have ever used.


Are you talking about hunting the north east? What about when you hunt wide open areas we have out west?

In the North East I've seen, there are so many trees, you really can't see very far anyway.

When hunting out West, I am mostly looking between half a mile and a mile away.

Maybe I am more steady than average. I can shoot pretty good groups out to 100 yards when I practice regularly.

Ray


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Are you talking about hunting the north east? What about when you hunt wide open areas we have out west?
> 
> In the North East I've seen, there are so many trees, you really can't see very far anyway.
> 
> ...



When hunting in the east I use the 7x42's most. I'm glassing anywhere from 100yds to 3/4 mi, just depends on where I am size of the forest/clearcuts/agriculture etc. 

I also used the 7's in Kansas this year for whitetails. I tagged out on day three and my buddy and I scouted heavy for this coming season. We were glassing .5-1 mile ranges mostly in prairie/crp rolling hills. I thought I would be disappointed with the 7's, but it was exactly the opposite. I was able to pic out just as much detail as my buddy with 10x Liecas (count points etc). I think this is due in large part to the fact they are just so much more stable. My buddy and I switched Binos quite a bit and he told me he was very surprised at how easy the 7's were to use. If you think you are steady with 10's, do yourself a favor and try a pair of 7's. You'll feel like Superman. 

Like I said I am pretty steady, and young (32). I don't know how to quantify that other than to say I've had my fair share of success with the bow, pistols and shotguns. I'm a very avid shooter. 

I'm not getting rid of my 10 EL's. I still plan on using them out west when I hunt Elk and Mule deer, but after using the 7's I can really see that to use the 10's effectively, meaning to get the extra benefit of that additional magnification, I really need to be sitting, and braced against something (tree, my pack etc). When I hunt out west, many times I head to a spot to glass from, and this is exactly what I do. 

So, I guess the answer for me is simply that Binocs are tools, pick the right one. There are times with the 7x42's are exactly what I want (most of the time IMO), and there are times when the 10's are better for me (when I am doing a lot of sit down/braced dissection of the landscape).


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

I sometimes swap with my one friend who has some 8X when we are birdwatching and I understand why you like them so much when you don't need the extra magnification.

If good binos were not so expensive, I'm sure I'd buy and enjoy a pair of 7X or 8X too!

Ray


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

I'm really enjoying a new 8 x 43 Zen Ray ZEN ED I bought recently. FOV is 426ft @1000 yds. Absolutely astonishing quality.


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## lane preston (Mar 31, 2005)

i have been using my 10-42 alpins and i like them. i bought them for indoor spots. i take then hunting and my field of view is quite a bit smaller, so no i would go with the 8x outdoor. i am first a spot shooter so i deal with little issues like this when hunting. i dont comp. when i am at a tournament.


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## bowhunter2007 (Sep 11, 2006)

vichris said:


> I've seen some QC issues with both Brunton and Vortex (more with Brunton). I would hand pick ANY optic I was going to put $$ on.


I'm not sure what QC means...i'm seriously consdering a pair of Vortex and i'm curious what this means.


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## Out West (Mar 6, 2008)

*Optics*



bowhunter2007 said:


> I'm not sure what QC means...i'm seriously consdering a pair of Vortex and i'm curious what this means.


Quality Control (inspecting for defects or flaws)


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## Hunter36 (May 31, 2007)

Now I say we have a thread to teach a lot of guys to actually use their optics effectively. Don't matter how good your optics are if you don't use them or don't know how to. 

Its amazing to see guys with $1,000+ binos and the look through them for a couple minutes quickly scanning then get up and move cause they didn't see anything. 

OH, I use 10Xs I've used 8Xs and 10Xs of the same model Bino and even tried some other 8Xs and can't stand them. I hunt in Minnesota, North & South Dakota and guide and hunt in Montana. They are the best fit for me and cover all situations!


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## cajunhunter (May 10, 2007)

I am not optics expert, but I have done my fair share of research. When I did my research I ended up with the 7x42 Zeiss Victory T*FL. The take home is not that 10 power is bad, but that when combined with the same objectives as 8 and 7 this dramatically reduces the Exit Pupil. This has a series of consequences, I am sure were discussed. The optics world pretty much knows that hunters think bigger is better and have not drilled down into the science of optics. I am glad this thread is here.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

cajunhunter said:


> I am not optics expert, but I have done my fair share of research. When I did my research I ended up with the 7x42 Zeiss Victory T*FL. The take home is not that 10 power is bad, but that when combined with the same objectives as 8 and 7 this dramatically reduces the Exit Pupil. This has a series of consequences, I am sure were discussed. The optics world pretty much knows that hunters think bigger is better and have not drilled down into the science of optics. I am glad this thread is here.



You know whats really cool about this thread.....Even though there is a good amount of differences in opinion everyones has been really civil about it. 

The AT community is great.


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## Caligater (Jun 25, 2008)

5MilesBack said:


> This is how I look at it: I can't even count the number of times I have wished for higher power binos while carrying 8x, but since going to 10x I haven't wished I was carrying a lower power.........even once.


I think this sums it up for me as well.


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## jake74 (May 27, 2007)

This is how I look at it: I can't even count the number of times I have wished for higher power binos while carrying 8x, but since going to 10x I haven't wished I was carrying a lower power.........even once.[/QUOTE]

I second this one, I carry 10's and have never wished that I had 8's instead. I really don't see the debate..If you can hold still to handle the extra magnification, then do it. The extra low light advantage has never entered my thoughts..

I.M.H.O.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Until this year I carried 10's always, and have had many times where I wish I had less power, or maybe it would be more accurate to say I wish I had the considerably wider field of view that goes along with lower power Binos. When I am dissecting a mountain side or canyon at moderate ranges, the 10's have too small a field of view and it takes me forever to pick apart the terrain. The lower power optics are much more efficient. Also, this goes without saying, but when hunting in the timber here in the east, the only binocular I use anymore is the 7x42. IMO 10's are WAY too much for scanning the timber at 50-150 yards. 10's are great once you've spotted an animal, but when looking FOR and animal, I prefer less power.


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## top5fingers (Oct 26, 2005)

I mentioned this in another thread but I feel it makes sence here too. Optics are a tool you have to choose the right tool for the job you use if for. If you hunt out west you look at the power vs shake and difference in light gathering and decide weather you want power or FOV. Back east you dont have the ground to look at we due so the lower power is a much better suited as your tool for light gathering. The other thing that maybe is just me being crazy, but if you hunt wide open desert vs timber pockets the light gathering may not be as crucial since you are not getting robbed of light by tree's and brush just a thought. Great info thought very intresting stuff


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## cajunhunter (May 10, 2007)

Caligater said:


> I think this sums it up for me as well.


I couldn't even imagine looking thru glass all day long with 330' FOV when I could have 450' and I can virtually see at night with the larger EP.


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

cajunhunter said:


> I couldn't even imagine looking thru glass all day long with 330' FOV when I could have 450' and I can virtually see at night with the larger EP.


Well let's see here. If you're looking through them all day, then you certainly aren't glassing a 3 acre lot from 100 yards away. At most western glassing distances, whether I'm looking at 110 yards or 150 yards FOV at a time......doesn't really matter. It still takes time to even scan through the 110 yards looking for an ear, or an antler tip, etc, etc.

And if you can virtually see at night with your binos, then you've really found something there. A larger exit pupil generally means more light gets through, but that doesn't guarantee a better sight picture. My buddy has 10x50's, yet my 10x42's are a LOT brighter in low light than his.


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## cajunhunter (May 10, 2007)

5MilesBack said:


> Well let's see here. If you're looking through them all day, then you certainly aren't glassing a 3 acre lot from 100 yards away. At most western glassing distances, whether I'm looking at 110 yards or 150 yards FOV at a time......doesn't really matter. It still takes time to even scan through the 110 yards looking for an ear, or an antler tip, etc, etc.
> 
> And if you can virtually see at night with your binos, then you've really found something there. A larger exit pupil generally means more light gets through, but that doesn't guarantee a better sight picture. My buddy has 10x50's, yet my 10x42's are a LOT brighter in low light than his.


It just depends on the Glass. The size of your pupil varies depending on the lighting conditions from about 2-8mm. At about 50 years or so it reduces to say about 5mm. So your 10x42 with a a ep of 4.2 may work well for some older individuals or if you use your glass in daylight then there will be little or no difference in Brightness between binos with different EP, and thus your magnification and stability come into play, however if you are using your binos in early morning or late evening and your pupil is above the EP of your Bino then you are missing out on light reaching your pupil. That is all we are trying to say. This would compare to brightness and without brightness your magnification is not as critical because you need to be able to see before you need detail. If your have a small pupil then you may be getting the most out of your 10x42 and if you glass and hunt only during the well lit conditions then you will be maximizing your bino. If you are younger or your pupil reaches the 5-8mm range in low light, and you are trying to scout or hunt once the sun is going down or with moon light then I would say you need to match the EP of the bino best with what you are trying to do to maximize brightness. 5miles, you have a wealth of info and experience and I am sure that those work for you, but I would also argue that for most hunters 10x42 is less than ideal. Here is more info if anyone want it.
http://www.birding.com/exitpupil.asp


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## JezterVA (Jan 26, 2009)

vichris,

thanks for this info. I've been trying to learn this optics stuff, but other sites kind of confuse me with too much technicality. This is useful stuff for dummy's like me.

I'm prior Navy as well......Data Systems Technician.

Cheers!!


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

cajunhunter said:


> I would also argue that for most hunters 10x42 is less than ideal.


And I would agree with you there, as MOST hunters probably don't need 10x. I will agree that if I only used them in the timber, then 10x would not be my first choice. But after a couple decades of only using 8x and then finally going to 10x, the difference has been extraordinary for me......HUGE difference. I have found that with my 10x42's, legal shooting hours are well past before I can't see anything with the binos.


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## WyoJim (Apr 15, 2004)

bump


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## cajunhunter (May 10, 2007)

To summarize this situation:
EP
I feel more comfortable in bino's with an ep over 5mm. This helps with stability and low light performance.

FOV
There is generally a big increase in FOV between 8x and 10x bino with the same objective lens.

POWER
If you need the power go for it, but for the most part the others outweigh power unless I am hunting or glassing extreme distance.


Size
Generally they are the same size, I am however looking into down sizing for bowhunting and hiking to a 6x32.

Good Luck.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

cajunhunter said:


> I am however looking into down sizing for bowhunting and hiking to a 6x32.
> 
> Good Luck.


What are some of the models you are looking at? I would be interested in a small set of low power binos also. The best I have seen so far are the Leupold 6x32's.


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## psu08 (Feb 22, 2007)

For archery hunting in the PA hardwoods, I like my 8x32s. Not too big/heavy and work well for me.


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## cajunhunter (May 10, 2007)

Meleagris1 said:


> What are some of the models you are looking at? I would be interested in a small set of low power binos also. The best I have seen so far are the Leupold 6x32's.


It looks like the best 6x32 is the Vortex Viper. The smallest is the leopold katamai. They also have the Vortex Fury in 6.5x32. 

The leopold yosemite gets some great reviews for $100 and they only weigh 17oz. I think they are a touch bulkier. I am thinking about getting a pair of those and checking them out great pair for the kids or to leave in the truck anyway.


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## cajunhunter (May 10, 2007)

psu08 said:


> For archery hunting in the PA hardwoods, I like my 8x32s. Not too big/heavy and work well for me.


I like the size of those 8x32 just want a larger FOV and larger EP. When I am bowhunting I like that larger EP so my eyes don't have to be perfectly aligned to get a good view. It also helps with one handed stability. Just me. I don't need the power while bowhunting max distance in my largest plot is 225yds.


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## sunstroked (Oct 8, 2008)

I carry 10X42 EL swarovski binoculars when hunting. 1 reason is I glass quite a bit. I live in the desert and do 90% of my hunting in areas devoid of any big timber. I carry either a monopod or a tripod on every hunt. If I know I'll be moving around a lot the walking stick I carry has a binocular attachment on it. And I use it. If I know I'll just be sitting and glassing, the tripod is always with me. 
I had a decent pr of lower priced binoculars but finally, after yrs of use, they were getting a bit worn and I felt justified in upgrading. 
Yes if I were to buy a 2nd pr it would be 8x42 or 8x32 for the times when I do venture into timber. Handholding while stillhunting in forests is easier to hold steady. But thats twice a yr if I'm lucky enough to get drawn for elk or turkey. The rest of the time I'm scouting, bowhunting or rifle hunting in the desert.


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

having used both 10x and 8x, I found myself more comfortable with 8x power. Man, the 8x43 ZEN ED2 I just got myself is one sweet binoculars. I like its eye relief.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Great thread. I learned a lot.


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## Ojibwe (Oct 14, 2009)

Techy said:


> Great thread. I learned a lot.


+1 :thumbs_up


For me, the $15 1.8oz Brunton 7x18 monocular gets the most use..


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## BuckeyeRed (Sep 7, 2006)

ttt


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

it is a must read thread when it comes to binos


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## jab-law (Dec 18, 2009)

*Resolution of 10x seems right for hand-held*

I have considered this question -- and have generally opted for the 10x over the 8x. Just my personal preference. Now I think I have an answer as to why.
My vision used to be quite poor, until I had laser surgery a few years ago. However, I still use glasses when absolutely necessary, but a t a much lower power. When I asked the eye doctor to write a prescription at the highest strength available for my eyes, he commented: "You near sighted people generally like your vision over-corrected."
As it seems that 10x is right at the edge of where binoculars can be held somewhat steady, I just prefer the 10x in general. -- However, after reading this post, I might get a good pair of 8x and and compare them side-by-side with t a comparable 10x. (I'm thinking about doing it with the Zen-Ray ED2, as they seem to be getting some good write-ups here and on other forums.)
Jim


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## ahawk19 (Aug 16, 2007)

*Great thread*

Ive spent the last half hour to hour reading this thing...Glad I did. I wish I would have read this a few years ago before I bought my binos. dont get me wrong I love what I have...I use Victory FL*T10x42's that I love. Probably the best use of money I have ever spent on hunting equipment, but I believe I got sucked in to the bigger is better hype and bought these binos...I hunt thick woods in the upstate of SC and definatly would go back and get a pair of 8x42's if I had the chance. I can hold my 10's stead enough to see when I can use two hands, but alot of times around here the deer is 40 yards away and I cant see it with my naked eye and ive got my bow in my hand and im trying to hold stead with one hand and its just impossible to do that well enough with one hand to see through the thick brush. So all you guys hunting whitetails i dont except for outwest my recommendation is to definatly look into some 8x or even less magnification. 

My brother has a pair of Meopta 8x42's and they are definatly brighter in low light than my Ziess victory 10x42's which cost about twice as much...just some more food for thought for you guys looking at a new pair of binos 

Thanks for the great thread vichris


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

ttt 

for good thread


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## BigPoppa96 (Jun 2, 2007)

I think it depends on where you are hunting. If you are strictly bow hunting 8X is the way to go. But if someone was rifle hunting out west I could see why they would want more power. But since this is a bow hunting forum, I am going to stick with 8X as that is plenty.


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## bigben55 (Jun 25, 2009)

From the research I've done, 8X42 is perfect for treestand hunting in the woods. If I bumped the power up to 10x50, what negatives would result from a treestand hunting in the woods perspective?


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## WyoJim (Apr 15, 2004)

They will be a little heavier hanging on your neck and they will be a little harder to hold steady.

Most guys are not any where near as steady as they think they are. If a guy was to compare 8 to 10X Geovids for steadiness by putting the aiming square on an object 4 or 500 yards away they would buy the 8X, or learn different ways to steady them.

My wife uses 7X42 leitz, and is the best binocular operator I have ever seen. I'll watch her glassing out the truck window. She rolls the window down part way and rests the binocular on it. Its not that she isn't steady because she is. She just uses every advantage she can get. Which is what every body should do.


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## the-ghost (Sep 11, 2004)

wow i learned something new today, go figure, and thanks!:wink:


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## Rick Hodges (Nov 3, 2008)

Great thread. I have used either 7 or 8X binoculars for years because I had trouble holding the 10's steady. I still used my 8X glasses on two central Montana rifle hunts for mulies and antelope. My glasses did okay but I sure could have used the extra power most of the time. Resting and sitting with elbows on knees or very steady positions was the norm. My guide had 12x glasses and they were very nice from a rested position. However when it came to crunch time, to finally decide whether the animal was what we wanted to shoot---out came the massive Swarovski (sic) spotting scope.

I am still comfortable with my choice of glass but can see where more magnification can be useful.


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## bucksnortinted (Aug 24, 2006)

this is a very good thread it helped me a lot reading it,i used 10x all the time too after all i have read here and a couple of other forums i ordered a pair of 
Zen Ray 8x43 ED2's form all the reviews i have read on the Zens i think i made a good choice on the bins and the power


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## Deja Vu (Jul 22, 2009)

hisnheroutdoors said:


> this is a very good thread it helped me a lot reading it,i used 10x all the time too after all i have read here and a couple of other forums i ordered a pair of
> Zen Ray 8x43 ED2's form all the reviews i have read on the Zens i think i made a good choice on the bins and the power


You made a great purchase. I got my set on Friday and I'm totally blown away. Words can't describe what I got for what I paid.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

hisnheroutdoors said:


> this is a very good thread it helped me a lot reading it,i used 10x all the time too after all i have read here and a couple of other forums i ordered a pair of
> Zen Ray 8x43 ED2's form all the reviews i have read on the Zens i think i made a good choice on the bins and the power


You will be happy 

P.S. I used to live about 40 min from Muskegon. Went to MCC for a short time and hunted the wastewater a few times as well.


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## bucksnortinted (Aug 24, 2006)

Techy said:


> You will be happy
> 
> P.S. I used to live about 40 min from Muskegon. Went to MCC for a short time and hunted the wastewater a few times as well.


i hunted there this yr also,this was absolutely the worst yr. ever for getting a deer for me,i loved the hunt and being outdoors but i never seen a deer with a weapon in my hand till thanksgiving night,and i had pics of 2 dandys.theres to much traffic out there i may go back i may not,regardless i was able to be in the outdoors and i was able to walk to my stand and climb the tree so i am not complaining.

back to the subject,i bought these bino's right from Zen Optics from Charles and i will tell ya what i am impressed with the C/S i was talking to Charles about the 8x43 ED Refurbs and he could tell that i didn't really want the refurbs i wanted the ED2 and he never tried pushing them on me and he let me *lay them away with 3 equal pay* the only other person that has ever done that with me is [email protected]  awesome C/S i can't really say enough,i can't wait to get them in my hand and try them


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## bkolowski111 (Dec 21, 2009)

Awesome thread!!


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## Wyoming Shooter (Sep 23, 2009)

*Thanks for the Informative Discussion*

There's much delicious food for thought here. Let me add just a bit to the discussion:

1. There is no "best" binocular. It depends on one's needs. As is often said in the military, the mission drives the gear train. Terrain, the user's physical condition, weather, available ambient light, and distance to be carried are just some factors that should influence the choice of binocular.

2. Ergonomics matter. Some binoculars just feel better in the hand than do others. Other users may feel, and choose, differently.

3. Quality matters. Probably more than magnification. I have bins by Leupold, Steiner, Swarovski, and Zeiss. I stash the less expensive binoculars in the tail packs of my quads. They get bashed around and are used mostly for casual scenery and wildlife viewing. For serious hunting, on foot, I use my Zeiss Victory T* FL 10X32. They work for *me*. My point is that serious work demands a quality bin.

4. Price matters. I was able to score my Zeiss T* FL 10X32 bins for about $1150 this fall. These are *great* bins and I got lucky on the price. Be patient and keep your eyes open for bargains.

5. I recommend the Badlands Bino Vault:http://www.sagecreekoutfitters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P7002&Category_Code=BDLDS. The bino vault keeps your bins handy, secure, and protected from dirt and weather. They are especially nice when crawling through the Wyoming sagebrush.

6. Good optics are addictive. Don't say I didn't warn you! :wink:

With best regards from the Big Empty, ELN.


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## slickstalker (Sep 21, 2008)

My 9x25 Leupold binos have served me very well on the west coast elk hunting for decades. Very compact and light weight so I always have them with me.


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Back by popular demand.................


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## HCH (Sep 20, 2006)

With all of the bino questions, this needs brought ttt:thumbs_up


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

Thanks HCH


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## eda (Nov 22, 2009)

ttt for a good read.


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

ttt


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## LoneEagle0607 (Jan 15, 2008)

*great thread*

I've been bino shopping and happened across this thread. Very informative. Decided on the Vortex Fury 8X42. I'll be using them for field archery. Glad to learn that more magnification isn't always the way to go. I'll be using my binos one handed as I'll have a bow in the other. This thread taught me alot about being able to hold steady. so 8X it is.


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## HCH (Sep 20, 2006)

I just got my Zen Ray 8X43 ED2's the other day. The glass is very impressive, and because of this thread, I educated myself also on why I wanted 8 powers over 10 powers. Thanks for the thread and info Vchris.


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## bucksnortinted (Aug 24, 2006)

HCH said:


> I just got my Zen Ray 8X43 ED2's the other day. The glass is very impressive, and because of this thread, I educated myself also on why I wanted 8 powers over 10 powers. Thanks for the thread and info Vchris.


these Zen Ray 8x43 ED2 are really nice and this thread is what actually made me by a pair of 10x43 ED2 after i bought the 
8x43 had to prove it to myself but the 8x was the way for me,glad ya like those Zens *HCH*


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

I really enjoy my 8x binoculars too.


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## noklok (Aug 9, 2003)

Good thread. 12 x 50 Leicas here. I can see in the dark. I rest them on my bow no matter what power they are. The only drawback is they sometimes make 120 bucks look like 140 bucks ukey: What about the twilight factor?? When you want to see in dim light with an adjustable rifle scope do you turn the power up or down??


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

ttt for a great read


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## trophyhill (Jul 8, 2008)

Vichris
i have some 10x50 nikons and i see good thru them but i know exactly what you are talkin about when it comes to using one hand. and...i do feel the weight of them at the end of each day especially when hunting in the high country. in fact i didn't even use them after the first day of elk season in the dark timber. i have been thinking about getting another pair but unsure on what to buy. i can tell you they wont be bushnels after my first pair of Bushnel. i really like my buddys Pentax 9x42's. smaller and lighter than these 10x50's and they seem to be more clear. do you have any opinion on range finding binos? what are some of the better brand of lower power binos? and cost? thanks in advance.


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## trophyhill (Jul 8, 2008)

bump


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## hardball15 (Jan 6, 2007)

I havent touched mine ONE time in three years.....I guess that shows you the country I hunt! Country thick enough to use your rangefinder as binos.


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## critterstalker (Jan 11, 2010)

Most of the guys I hunt with out west here sit down,lean against a tree or rock,or use the truck door to glass across a canyon or a basin.If there is a deer up and running within 300 yards your looking through a scope not worrying about trying to steady binos.So from what I've read this would put the whole high low power thing out the window for this style of hunting right?


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## vichris (Nov 5, 2006)

trophyhill said:


> Vichris
> i have some 10x50 nikons and i see good thru them but i know exactly what you are talkin about when it comes to using one hand. and...i do feel the weight of them at the end of each day especially when hunting in the high country. in fact i didn't even use them after the first day of elk season in the dark timber. i have been thinking about getting another pair but unsure on what to buy. i can tell you they wont be bushnels after my first pair of Bushnel. i really like my buddys Pentax 9x42's. smaller and lighter than these 10x50's and they seem to be more clear. do you have any opinion on range finding binos? what are some of the better brand of lower power binos? and cost? thanks in advance.


Rangefinding binos are an excellent option if you have the money. I have used the Leica Geovids. Very nice pkg but VERY expensive ($2000+) Zeiss also has one but again pricey. I know Leupold has one out but I've not seen it yet. I remember somewhere in the $700 range on price. Not sure on the quality


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## trophyhill (Jul 8, 2008)

vichris said:


> Rangefinding binos are an excellent option if you have the money. I have used the Leica Geovids. Very nice pkg but VERY expensive ($2000+) Zeiss also has one but again pricey. I know Leupold has one out but I've not seen it yet. I remember somewhere in the $700 range on price. Not sure on the quality


thanks for the feedback vichris. great thread by the way. lots of good info


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## Bowhuntr64 (Aug 6, 2007)

Wow, this was a helpful thread! Thanks to all who posted and shared their wisdom and insights. :thumbs_up


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## eda (Nov 22, 2009)

Bowhuntr64 said:


> Wow, this was a helpful thread! Thanks to all who posted and shared their wisdom and insights. :thumbs_up


I learnt a lot from this thread too.


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## austin-josey (Aug 12, 2008)

This is kind of off on a tangent, so I apologize up front. With todays technology, why is there not (or maybe I am unaware of it) a method of comparing binoculars and scopes of a given size (8x42 binos or 3.5-10x40 scope) to see which has better clarity and more light gathering capabilities?


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## eda (Nov 22, 2009)

austin-josey said:


> This is kind of off on a tangent, so I apologize up front. With todays technology, why is there not (or maybe I am unaware of it) a method of comparing binoculars and scopes of a given size (8x42 binos or 3.5-10x40 scope) to see which has better clarity and more light gathering capabilities?


maybe there are some techniques to do that. But I use my eyes and they are pretty reliable to tell the difference when several pairs are available to compare


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## 5MilesBack (Feb 28, 2007)

It's kind of funny. After all this talk in this thread, and I just bought a pair of 15's a month ago.........and I'm loving them. Haven't even tried them with a tripod yet, but they work just fine freehand as well. Have used them for a couple 3D shoots and for the first time have been able to see all the rings on just about every target.:thumbs_up The only downside to them is their weight.


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## slim9300 (Dec 4, 2004)

vichris said:


> Ok....I purposely didn't mention anything in my original post about the size of the objective lens or exit pupil. I'm glad to see most of you understand the relationship between the two. Multiply the power into the size of the objective and you get the size of the exit pupil. 8 divided by 42 is 5.2....a 5.2 mm dot of light coming out of the eyepiece will more than cover your pupil even under poor light conditions, on an 8X42 bino . 10 divided by 42 is 4.2mm on a 10X42 bino. Give me the choice between an 8X25 with a 3.1 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2mm exit pupil and I'd be a fool to choose the 8X25.....of course I'd choose the 10X42....but are either of those choices ideal? When you couple a smaller exit pupil with magnified movement do you think you're going to get ideal resolution????? Now give me the choice between an 8X42 with a 5.2 mm exit pupil and a 10X42 with a 4.2 mm exit pupil I'll take that big dot of light every time. That bigger dot of light not only covers all of your pupil under almost any hunting condition but also allows for movement and misadjustment of interpupilary distance. You all ALWAYS have your binos set at the perfect interpupillary distance don't you????????
> 
> The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.
> 
> ...


You should have made this thread to address the usefulness of rangefinders... :wink:

Everything you stated seems to apply to every rangefinder I have ever used.


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## draw_back22 (Feb 21, 2007)

I'm in the market for some new binos, and I have been reading through this thread trying to decide between 8x's and 10x's. I see the pros and cons of both. I like the fact that the 8's are more clear and field of view is wider, but I don't want to miss something by not having a stronger magnification. Decisions, decisions, decisions.


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## eda (Nov 22, 2009)

draw_back22 said:


> I'm in the market for some new binos, and I have been reading through this thread trying to decide between 8x's and 10x's. I see the pros and cons of both. I like the fact that the 8's are more clear and field of view is wider, but I don't want to miss something by not having a stronger magnification. Decisions, decisions, decisions.


get both them. :tongue:

But seriously though, that's how I ended up doing any way.


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## dennykyser (Feb 7, 2003)

Amazing thread and very good points, with experience to back them up. 

I was getting caught up in the need for power, and although I can see reasons to need the power, I don't think I need them. 

I live in NW pa, longest shot I ever took with a rifle was 200 yards, most were less than 100 yards, and I prefer to never get the rifle out if you know what I mean. 

My thoughts were for use in a vehicle when driving the back roads I wanted some high power, but this is a time when its a quick grab and hold one handed. 

I make my living behind a lens, as a photographer and can really hold pretty well but when taking a quick look at a deer anywhere from 20-200 yards its going to come down to quality and low light capabilities. 

Looks like I still need new binos, I have Nikon monarch 8X42, now looking for a better quality set.


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

I did most of my glassing for 200 yards or less range. It's amazing how much more you can see with a pair of binoculars


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

after reading this thread i ordered a set of 8X43 zen eds. After gettign them in i really do see the benefit of the 8x. I compared them with my 12 and 10X's and you can see so much more and everything is so much brighter its unbelievable.
Thanks for this thread chris


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

yesterday, I mounted one of my 10x binoculars on tripod. Wow, I got a clarity that I have never seen before with handhold. But I highly doubt I will drag a tripod with me. For that, I do believe the 8x seems to be a better option.


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

ttt


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## mikehess51 (Dec 5, 2008)

good thread going here


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## tscan (Jun 18, 2010)

good discussion. i sure learnt a lot.


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## phk691 (Mar 25, 2007)

bump


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## Tiggie_00 (Jul 18, 2009)

Good read... 5 year old bump... lol


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## snoodcrusher (Jul 9, 2007)

Interesting thread.


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## mccoppinb (Aug 14, 2012)

In for later


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