# Interesting thoughts from a PRO



## ASG (Jun 25, 2007)

While out on my travels last week, I had an interesting meeting with a man that guides dangerous game bowhunts for a living.
He made some interesting comments about archery tackle that I thought you ou's might be interested in. All these comments are very true and do hold water.

I asked him which brand of bow he would recommend for hunting dangerous game.

He said that in 21 years of guiding bowhunters on things like Elephant, he has never seen a Bowtech kill an elephant, or a PSE, or a Mathews, or a Hoyt etc.

He has however seen Thunderheads, German Kinetics & Big5's kill elephant!

I then asked him what he thinks of mechanical broadheads?

They were originally designed to hunt turkeys. That was until some turkey tried them out on a whitetail. Mechanicals don't like a heavy arrow that carries a lot of momentum. The little screws that hold the blades in the ferrule are so thin that they either bend or snap when they hit bone with serious momentum behind them.

I then asked him how much K.E do you need to kill something like an Elephant?

He then told me that K.E means absolutely NOTHING in bowhunting.
Tissue penetration or momentum is everything! K.E is only important in balistic charts and gun related things.

So if you ou's want to bowhunt an elephant anytime soon. You need any bow that can throw a 1000grain arrow at 220 fps. Oh you also need to make sure that your arrow is tipped with a 2 blade fixed head and your insurance is payed up.

Another interesting thing...you can brain shoot an elephant with a bow. They did it!


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## INGOZI (May 9, 2005)

Well, that is interesting. I agree that Ke is overrated and that TPI and Momentum are two far more important factors to take into account when taking on the big stuff and your worried about penetration. I won't however condone trying to brain a Jumbo with a bow, but to each his own. Read somewhere once that there are many foolishly brave hunters (and Ph's) but not so many _old_ foolishly brave hunters........


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## Gerhard (Aug 3, 2005)

Very intresting info.

Thanks.

Gerhard


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## valie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quite an interesting read. It got me thinking especially the remark about KE made

I am not trying to stir the pot or anything I just want to make some observations on how I understand Momentum and KE. If I am wrong in my understanding please feel free to correct me

Lets take a hypothetical situation:

A = 1000kg object traveling at 1 m/s

B = 1kg object traveling at 1000 m/s

Momentum of A & B is 1000kg m/s

KE of A = 500 Joules
KE of B = 500 000 Joules

This means I would rather stand in front of object A although both are generating the same amount of momentum.

You generate ENERGY which is the capacity for doing WORK which for objects in motion includes KE and may include Potential Energy due to gravity or Elastic Forces.

Although KE is NOT Momentum! They are both important concepts that tells us different things about an object in motion. I do not think that one should discard either one as not being important.

OK I am bored at work :ranger: I'll stop rambling

Theo


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## Philip Moolman (Jan 31, 2006)

*KE vs Momentun*



valie said:


> Quite an interesting read. It got me thinking especially the remark about KE made
> 
> I am not trying to stir the pot or anything I just want to make some observations on how I understand Momentum and KE. If I am wrong in my understanding please feel free to correct me
> 
> ...


Theo, I think the Old Pro is talking about killing the big stuff.What would you choose to shoot an elephant:an arrow that weighs 300 gr at 320ft/s or an arrow 1000gr at 220ft/s.It is momentum that you need to penetrate the thick ribs,skin etc.to get to the vitals.The Masai warriors kill elephant with spears(1 or perhaps 2 lbs in weight),do you think they would be able to throw an arrow of 450gr deep enough to fatally wound such an animal.BUT BOTH ARE IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING CONCEPTS.
I personally like a relatively slow heavy arrow for all my shooting(especially for hunting) and I am too unexperienced to argue with you.Speed does not necessary give you penetration or accuracy.Although there is a happy medium for most things in life.We did some penetration tests on giraffe quite a few years ago with different setups.The heavy arrows outpenetrated the faster lighter ones by far.
So I defenitely choose momentum over kinetic energy for Pachyderms.


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## valie (Oct 10, 2006)

Hey Phillip,

I would personally use my dads 460 Weatherby Magnum or his 505 Gibbs to shoot an elephant with 

The point I was trying to make is that all elements play an important role and that it is unwise to discard any one of the elements as being unimportant.

Cheers
Theo


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## Hoytitoyti (Feb 14, 2006)

*Ke and TPI and Dave Holt*

Its very interesting and I agree with you that Ke is not really the key to penetration. 

If you want to know alot about penetration do a search on the net for Dr. Ed Ashby and arrow penetration. You'll be astounded. However, I do not aggree with Dave Holts new lectures on penetration. Do any of you know Dave Holt? He has and is going to give lectures in South Africa about archery and bowhunting. In my opinion he is a phsyco criminal! He currently has 12 inditements of fraud against him in the USA and will be arrested when he returns and the pro's in SA thinks he is so great and giving him a chance to make a lot of money on phoney bowhunting info. Look at the folowing thread:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5583643,00.html

Just my 0.02.


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## Dave Duncan (May 29, 2007)

"So if you ou's want to bowhunt an elephant anytime soon. You need any bow that can throw a 1000grain arrow at 220 fps. Oh you also need to make sure that your arrow is tipped with a 2 blade fixed head and your insurance is payed up."

My 585 grain arrow tipped with a SteelForce 210gr 2-blade (795gr total arrow weight) at 255 fps off my Hoyt bow...provided 114.8 ft/lbs KE. Which coincidentally, fully penetrated a +/-10,000 lb elephant at 32 yards.

Lucky? Maybe. Prepared? Definitely! 1000gr arrow at 220fps? No thanks.

You can never have too much KE!!!

This tidbit spoke volumes! 
"Another interesting thing...you can brain shoot an elephant with a bow. They did it![/QUOTE]
This "pro" has had one Castle Lager too many.:darkbeer: A semi-pro at best!


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