# pin nock or over nocks



## spogshd (Mar 14, 2014)

I'm sure when I was watching the archery world cup one of the Korean mens team was using over nocks, what would is your preference and is there any difference in flight over pin nocks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If you look closely, you will rarely see a Korean archer use anything besides Beiter Out-nocks. I suspect there is a reason for this. 

I switched from pin nocks to out nocks before leg 2 of the 2012 trials, and went on to shoot all my highest outdoor scores. I continue to use out-nocks whenever possible. I believe the single piece construction offers fewer opportunities for poor alignment and fit. The out-nock has an advantage over the insert nock, since the barrel of the nock that fits over the shaft is much more rigid than the part of the insert nocks that goes into the shaft. 

Great scores have been shot with all types of nocks, yes, but again, why would nearly all the Korean archers use out-nocks? It's a question worth asking.


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## spogshd (Mar 14, 2014)

I've noticed that the Easton pin nocks crack and it's hard to see the crack. 
I've just ordered a couple of sets to try.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

I use pin nocks (beiter) simply because if my arrow gets hit, by myself or someone else on the target, I'd rather replace a 15 cent pin than a 20 dollar arrow.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

I do a lot of up-close bale work. I've yet to lose a shaft to a Robin Hood since I went to pins and pin nocks. That's over three years.
So from that POV they're worth the cost.

I'm using clear Beiter pin-out nocks. I would suggest checking each nock before shooting as part of your shot sequence as cracks can be hard to see and the 'ping' on-sound isn't always affected until later.

I'm finding the pin-out nocks are too tight (cause small cracks in collar) on 500 and 410 spine Carbon Ones so I'm now changing to Beiter pin nocks for those shaft sizes.


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

As the pin is another piece in the positioning of the nock it adds, a very little bit, to the uncertainty of position of the nock relative to the shaft. If you go for the highest precision use the overnock.
You can get best of both world if you use the Beiter in out nocks, I have yet to see an arrow broken from the rear with these.
Not available for every arrow see on Beiter's site.

That said I shoot pin and Beiter with my Carbon express SST 600, good enough for me. Beiter doesn't seems to make the in/out nock for the SST (yet ?).


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> If you look closely, you will rarely see a Korean archer use anything besides Beiter Out-nocks. I suspect there is a reason for this.
> 
> I switched from pin nocks to out nocks before leg 2 of the 2012 trials, and went on to shoot all my highest outdoor scores. I continue to use out-nocks whenever possible. I believe the single piece construction offers fewer opportunities for poor alignment and fit. The out-nock has an advantage over the insert nock, since the barrel of the nock that fits over the shaft is much more rigid than the part of the insert nocks that goes into the shaft.
> 
> Great scores have been shot with all types of nocks, yes, but again, why would nearly all the Korean archers use out-nocks? It's a question worth asking.


It is worth asking. I suspect this may be group think, rather than a measurable performance enhancement. It is a nock. And being a nock, it is hard for me to believe there is something that may constitute a performance advantage. My thought is if there is a consistent weight and fit, that should equate to optimum performance. 

Group think is pervasive in all cultures, but really entrenched in some Asian cultures.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, you gotta admit that "group think" is outperforming every other group think in the world.  



> As the pin is another piece in the positioning of the nock it adds, a very little bit, to the uncertainty of position of the nock relative to the shaft. If you go for the highest precision use the overnock.


I completely agree



> You can get best of both world if you use the Beiter in out nocks


However, I don't agree with this. IMO, the OUT nock has the most reliable, precise alignment of any nock available. The problem with the insert and in-out nocks is that they depend on the small diameter "post" for alignment, and it can be bent much easier than the large barrel of the out nock. The shoulder of the in-out nock does virtually nothing to prevent the internal "post" from being bent. In many cases, the shoulder of the in-out nock doesn't even touch the shaft.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Even at my modest skill level Bieter asymmetrical nocks outperform Easton.

As for insert vs. pin vs. outnock, I can see the pin having the worst rigidity and the outnock having the best. Interesting enough most compound shooters who use large diameter arrows have gone away from pins towards a g-uni bushing.

-Grant


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

there are relatively few pins available for the large diameter arrows, the Carbon Triumph and X-Buster being notable exceptions. it's not an option for X7 2315s, for instance.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Say limbwalker what do you think of the pin-out nocks vs. the outnocks? Also, do you think the pin-out nocks are better than using just pins and regular pin nocks?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

See post #8 above


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Incidentally, both the Korean men in the gold medal match in Antalya were shooting Beiter Out nocks and spin wings. I sometimes wonder why our US archers experiment so much - myself included.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Out nocks break on me too often. I cant shoot them. I prefer them as they aid in getting fletchings in the right place. I shoot pin nocks as i almost never have a fail inless i hit the nock.



Chris


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Isnt the in-out nock different from the pin out nock?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

fango0000 said:


> Isnt the in-out nock different from the pin out nock?


Yes. Excuse me. 

The Pin-out nocks are obsolete IMO, since the pin nock was developed. I was pleading with Beiter to make pin nocks many years ago (many of us were) and they came out with the unusually heavy and bulky pin-out nock, which in my experience is not necessary if you simply have a good durable pin nock. The pins themselves offer plenty of nock-end protection for those who value this feature.

Chris, I've not had the issues you describe with the Out nocks. In fact, the arrows I shot in April 2012 at the trials still wear the same Beiter Out nocks they had on them then. I've not shot them a lot since then, but I did shoot them quite a bit that year (2012) without issue.

It's not the pin nocks that bother me. It's the fact that pins can bend and you have no way to tell. If an Out nock cracks, you can see that. If a pin nock cracks, you can see that. If a pin bends slightly - for whatever reason - you really cannot see that. 

I also like the whole outer shaft as the alignment surface, vs. the inside of the shaft and hoping that both ends of the pin are perfectly straight, then the nock on top of that is perfectly straight.


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## fango0000 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahhhh thanks for the clarification


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

If anyone preferred an out-nock, but wanted the protection offered by pins.......

Use your imagination.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Chris, I've not had the issues you describe with the Out nocks. In fact, the arrows I shot in April 2012 at the trials still wear the same Beiter Out nocks they had on them then. I've not shot them a lot since then, but I did shoot them quite a bit that year (2012) without issue.


Mine always crack and break in the same spot. Outside edge right at end of arrow shaft. 


here is an example

View attachment 2258786



All colors break here, blue, white, orange, yellow. Sometimes its a dry fire and into my arm. Not pretty. I had to stop using them. Must be something in my shot or release. 


Chris


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

theminoritydude said:


> If anyone preferred an out-nock, but wanted the protection offered by pins.......
> 
> Use your imagination.


Now that right there is entertainment.

Seems to me that barring the issues Chris was describing that the out-nocks would be more accurate and would introduce less weight on the back half of the arrow. this would be win win solution. Now having the pin would be more durable but I think I'll take the points and lose a few arrows.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris, I'm sorry to see that. I've yet to have an out-nock ever do that. Even once. That's weird. You're not gluing them on are you? 

Bow, the reduced weight is offset somewhat by the weakening effect out nocks have on the arrow, vs. pins.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

no, i do not glue them on the shaft. 

I have had this happen so commonly that i won't shoot them now. More than 20 times. That is the only photo that i can find, but i have more somewhere. Blue nocks, white nocks, etc. 



Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

b0w_bender said:


> Now that right there is entertainment.
> 
> Seems to me that barring the issues Chris was describing that the out-nocks would be more accurate and would introduce less weight on the back half of the arrow. this would be win win solution. Now having the pin would be more durable but I think I'll take the points and lose a few arrows.


I compared the FOC of two different arrows, one with 120gr, the other with 140gr. The difference was barely anything more than 7mm. The arrows were about 28 1/2 inches nock groove to the cut.

The addition of the pin actually moved the FOC of the 140gr point arrow back to approximately the same location of the 120gr arrow. One way to reduce this effect, would be to cut out 80% of the shank of the pin, just enough for it to be attached, but not enough to handle the stress of keeping the arrow and nock together (since it is a job now for the outsert nock), but of course that would take some labour and effort......so, do what you will with this information


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> no, i do not glue them on the shaft.
> 
> I have had this happen so commonly that i won't shoot them now. More than 20 times. That is the only photo that i can find, but i have more somewhere. Blue nocks, white nocks, etc.
> 
> ...


That's bizarre.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hi Chris,

I shoot outs and have never had any issues, how strange that it happens consistently....


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes, but when they fail during the shot and you get the dry fire, plus the arrow/ string into your arm, it makes you gunshy the next few days. 

I would rather not have that apprehension when shooting. There was a few weeks when i posted about four of those pics on my facebook page. That is the only photo i could find from that time period.

Oddly enough, when i shot the white pin nocks and the yellow pin nocks, they also use to crack on me. I switched from those to the outnocks. Personally i loved the outnocks, but couldnt count on them. 

I shoot red and orange pin nocks now that dont crack or fail. If i shoot blue, they fail. The pin nocks always fail on the top of the arrow part of the nock. Different from the outnocks that fail from the outside side.


Its very weird.


Chris


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## eagle man (Jun 7, 2011)

You and John have a lot more experience than I'll ever have, but I too just think this is very strange. So am I understanding that you believe this happens upon release or is the nock failing do to some sort of finger pressure on your draw hand just before release? I haven't had this experience but I would certainly understand the gun shy thing.

Ted


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

its not finger pressure. My fingers don't touch the nock. I also have no clearance issues. And the bows are very quiet and shooters. 

I guess its cracking under the stress of the side to side flex. I was shooting 54 lbs, then 48 lbs. I don't know why the pin nocks would fail on top of the nock. 

I now shoot 42 lbs, so the outnocks may not crack, but i am too gun-shy to give them a try. The nocks i currently use are working and no failures. 


Chris


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

I can fully understand why you wouldn't want to shoot them after that experience. Last thing you want is to be worrying about equipment. 

It is a strange one. On a side I shoot 48lb at the moment and have gone to 52 no problem. 

Stick with what works for you.


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