# Anyone else not trust the standard D loop knot?



## trial153 (Nov 27, 2011)

I modified the D loop knot by putting a figure 8 knot in the tag ends to supplement the burned ball. It's simple and works excellent


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## DeathF.above (Jan 19, 2014)

A d loop tied the standard way properly will never fail.


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## lacampbell2005 (Feb 17, 2015)

Can you post an actual pic of this or a video?


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

Looks like 2 double fisherman's knots. Interesting idea. Serving or not, that should not slip off. Although I've never had an issue with a d loop failing. And my biggest question would be how much this knot grabs the bow string? That's the most effective thing about the D loop, it's kind of a constrictor knot. You can use it to straighten peep twist because it's locked on. This one "should" if you got a good pull on both ends.


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## dustoffer (Jan 24, 2009)

My tech does the regular D-loop tie-off, and serves the ends to the string. Done deal.


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## Michael T Herne (Jun 25, 2014)

Never had an issue with the standard knot. Also if your peep isn't lining up you can twist the d loop around and re tighten to help get better alignment. That alternate knot looks serious. 

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## Seadonist (Jan 5, 2015)

My d loop failed this weekend. Don't know why, but the bottom knot popped out just as I was getting over the wall, going into the valley. It was suggested that the burnt bulb was not big enough.


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## chadbrochill17 (Jan 30, 2015)

If you do a d-loop properly it wont come off. Thats a lot of added weight to the string, you're probably losing 5fps in extra d-loop/serving material.


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## jjjjeremy (Sep 16, 2016)

chadbrochill17 said:


> If you do a d-loop properly it wont come off. Thats a lot of added weight to the string, you're probably losing 5fps in extra d-loop/serving material.


Not really. Whatever difference there is gets lost in the small variation I get between shots.











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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Well one thing for sure its not going to move up or down on you. If it works for you run with it.


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## lacampbell2005 (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks for the pic.


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## Lennyb1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I might consider this. About a month ago, during archery season, stepped out into the back yard to throw a few practice rounds before headed to the woods for the afternoon. Drew back and got a little less than half way and mine let loose. Punched myself right in the throat. After I got done being angry about the pain, I saw the d-loop hanging. Re-attached with a bigger melted end and back to it. Just glad it happened there and not later that evening hunting.


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## Thansen (Sep 23, 2009)

this appears that it would work but if you tie a d-loop right and dont burn the ends you should never have a problem with it either. Thanks for sharing though always interested in other ideas.


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## willyd5 (Jul 25, 2007)

DeathF.above said:


> A d loop tied the standard way properly will never fail.


Agree! I ran a bow shop and have tied 100s of D-loops with zero failures.


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## Dwayne (May 23, 2003)

Here is the one I use. Not sure where I read about this, it might have been here on ATalk. This loop has the additional advantage of not torquing the string like the regular D Loop knot.


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## jjjjeremy (Sep 16, 2016)

The problem with the standard D loop knot is that it is essentially two opposing lark's head knots, which are designed to have equal pressure applied to the working and standing end of the rope used. The reason that the D loop NEEDS a ball on the end is because it slips by design if only one side is pulled.

A figure 8 or some other stopper knot at the tags end will work, but a melted ball on the end is just asking for failure. Some say that if it's tied properly, it won't fail, and failure is somewhat rare. But, it's pretty easy to find someone who has had one slip out, which is extremely dangerous.

One other issue is that the knot is 100% reliant on it's weakest link, the ball. The rope/cord gets its strength and durability from the woven strands, and melting them together damages them and severely reduces the strength of the material.

For me, the risk/reward just doesn't add up. There are other options that are only slightly less convenient to tie, and have a much lower risk of failure, if any.


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## Xlr8n (Feb 15, 2009)

Looks a bit too scruffy for my taste but if it gives you confidence in your shots, then no harm done. But...

-Consider how many compound bow archers there are in the world at this exact moment. Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?

-Consider what percent of those archers use a D-loop. Safe to say at least half maybe?

-Consider how many shots each of those single D-loop shooting archers make each year. Thousands? Tens of thousands?

So we can conclude that there are likely multiple millions of D-loop shots fired each year. 

How many D-loop failures do you suppose occur each year? Likely an extremely small fraction of a percent, and of those failures I'd guess most are due to poor maintenance which have the D-loop cable wear through and break at the release site, not the knot itself.


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## trial153 (Nov 27, 2011)

jjjjeremy said:


> The problem with the standard D loop knot is that it is essentially two opposing lark's head knots, which are designed to have equal pressure applied to the working and standing end of the rope used. The reason that the D loop NEEDS a ball on the end is because it slips by design if only one side is pulled.
> 
> A figure 8 or some other stopper knot at the tags end will work, but a melted ball on the end is just asking for failure. Some say that if it's tied properly, it won't fail, and failure is somewhat rare. But, it's pretty easy to find someone who has had one slip out, which is extremely dangerous.
> 
> ...


Excellent synopsis.


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## Xlr8n (Feb 15, 2009)

Dwayne said:


> Here is the one I use. Not sure where I read about this, it might have been here on ATalk. This loop has the additional advantage of *not torquing the string like the regular D Loop knot.*



If you tie each of the D loop knots on opposing sides of the string, there is no torque. Like this:










While this pics ^^ shows the proper opposing knots, it also shows a common and dangerous mistake which over-heating the ball. You shouldn't hold your heat source so close that the D-loop knot actually catches fire, but just enough to melt the fibers into a ball. 
While often times a serving knot will flame up to melt, you don't want that same thing with the D-loop knot.

Once you get the ball crispy like this one pictured, it is then prone to failure. I've never seen a properly melted ball fail.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

In the last 16 years that I've been shooting compounds, I've never had one problem with the standard D-loop. I've screwed up plenty of other things on my bows, but the standard loop has been 100%.

It does depend on the melted balls on the ends, but that has never been a problem for me. As an experiment, I used the same D-loop on three different strings. It held up fine for all three. I would have used it on the 4th string, it had been 2 years & I forgot about the experiment. 

IMO the standard loop is fine & I don't see any reason to use anything else. But that is just me. Try anything you think is better. It's how we learn.

Allen


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## Aaron Clay (Feb 25, 2016)

I once had a bad feeling about one of my D loops failing. I tied a over hand knot after the lark's head knots, then melted the end of the string. Put my mind at ease. Worked very well, used it till worn out.


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## mccoppinb (Aug 14, 2012)

In.


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## vito9999 (Jun 30, 2009)

Over the last 10 years I have probably shot around 200,000 arrows and have had 2 issues with a D-loop. One was from a release that developed a bur and cut a loop in less than 50 shots. Another I just messed up one of the first loops I ever made, it let go at half draw and my hand went flying by my face harmlessly. I have had more release failure (3) than D-loops. 2 heads came off while drawing and once a hinge just flew out of my hand, though that was my failure not mechanical failure of the release.he cut loop was just my inexperience at the time, had i paid more attention I would have noticed the fraying caused by the burr.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

One thing that can give you a little confidence in your D-loop is to put a lot of pressure on it when you install it.
First wax it so that it will slide a little easier, then use some type of pliers that will put way more pressure on it than a hard pulled shot. The outer Limit nock pliers are probably the best available for this, but there are others.

Another thing that will give you a better knot is to NOT flatten the melted ball. Flattening the molten ball can cause some of the strands to separate which is what you don't want. Use gravity to shape the ball.

Allen


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I've seen that d-loop knot and standard loop material pull more than 200lbs without a problem. I've never had an issue and I'm not worried I ever will. Tie it correctly and you won't have an issue either. 

I'm not a fan of serving the tag end down to the string as added security either. Instead of relying on a cord that has over a couple hundred pound tensile strength, you're relying on serving material with a breaking strength quite a bit under 100lbs, depending on what you use. Plus, you can't ever adjust the loop without cutting and retying again.


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## wmn2 (Sep 16, 2008)

I trust them, but I have had two fail. Both tied correctly with opposing knots and did not burn the ends too much, but they both slipped out. The first time I was lucky and wasn't far into my draw. The second time I was about halfway through and when my fist hit my jaw, I thought Mike Tyson was hiding around the corner. I've been hit hard, but I don't think I've ever been hit THAT hard. I wish I still had a picture of the bloody/fat lip that was the result. 

With that being said, I've shot tens of thousands of arrows over the past 20 years. Probably about 15 years with a loop. Even with 2 failures, I still shoot with one and will continue to do so.


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## Dwayne (May 23, 2003)

Xlr8n, if you look at the loop & string at full draw you will see the string is torqued with the D Loop knots on opposite sides. Looking at the photo you posted the top knot will force the string a little to the left and the bottom knot a little to the right. Does it matter, darned if I know but being a little AR I like the non-torque version better.


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## bowmender (Jul 5, 2006)

I admit years ago when I saw my first Wasnt sure how much I trusted the standard loop..
But after 35 years of shooting and 25 years installing loops for customers. 
Have never had one fail from coming untied.

However ,Have seen some come in for repair that had pulled thru that were not properly installed.
All those looked like ball was overheated.


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## pman (Jan 16, 2009)

Am I the only one that uses a clove hitch knot with ball ends? Spill-over from my rock climbing days...


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## I'M DK (Jul 4, 2012)

pman said:


> Am I the only one that uses a clove hitch knot with ball ends?


I'm curious why a clove hitch isn't commonly used.
Or a clove hitch with a bight, it would never come untied accidentally.

DK


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## jjjjeremy (Sep 16, 2016)

I'M DK said:


> I'm curious why a clove hitch isn't commonly used.
> Or a clove hitch with a bight, it would never come untied accidentally.
> 
> DK


Clove hitch could introduce a lot of torque because the knot is tied in the same direction around the string. As well, they can untie themselves if the thing they're attached to can spin. Having them opposed to each other could solve both of those issues, though.


A constructor knot is very similar, and more secure.


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## jjjjeremy (Sep 16, 2016)

*constrictor


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## redyak3 (Nov 5, 2011)

Standard D-loop tie correctly done works fine for me. I wouldn't want all that extra material on my bowstring.


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## Xlr8n (Feb 15, 2009)

wmn2 said:


> I trust them, but I have had two fail. Both tied correctly with opposing knots and did not burn the ends too much, but they both slipped out. The first time I was lucky and wasn't far into my draw. The second time I was about halfway through and when my fist hit my jaw, I thought Mike Tyson was hiding around the corner. I've been hit hard, but I don't think I've ever been hit THAT hard. I wish I still had a picture of the bloody/fat lip that was the result.
> 
> With that being said, I've shot tens of thousands of arrows over the past 20 years. Probably about 15 years with a loop. Even with 2 failures, I still shoot with one and will continue to do so.


The only physical way you could have them slip out is if A) The knots weren't cinched/seated correctly when installed, or if B) the buttons weren't melted big enough.


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## Oncorhynchus (May 19, 2016)

I just tied my first two d-loops by myself. After hearing about the punches to your faces I am going to pay more attention to my knots. I cranked the knots tight with some outer limit pliers before burning the second tag end. Do you guys burn it before tightening or do it after like I did? Does it matter?


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## pman (Jan 16, 2009)

And this is what I do and never have had a problem with spinning or coming loose...


jjjjeremy said:


> Clove hitch could introduce a lot of torque because the knot is tied in the same direction around the string. As well, they can untie themselves if the thing they're attached to can spin. *Having them opposed to each other could solve both of those issues, though.*
> 
> 
> A constructor knot is very similar, and more secure.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The OP is using an anchor knot.

I am always looking for a better way to do something. I don't know if the OP's method is better or not. I guess time will tell.


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## grander (Mar 19, 2009)

6 one way half dozen the other. You have to melt tag ends on both. All that extra serving to keep it all in place... Is that what you call custom or just burning free time?


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

Son had the ball crack and one end go free drawing on a deer this year. Might consider the above knot. While I personally have never had a failure (that was found while checking right after tying a new one) I have always been paranoid about it.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

After pulling my F250 through the yard with a d-loop and bow string, I'm pretty convinced the standard loop is good enough. 
Any body that has one fail, well, it ain't tied right.


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## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

My d loops don't fail, I wax the cord before i install them and once their set they are set. the wax really helps the d loop material squeeze together good!


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## hold_the_line (Sep 7, 2016)

Xlr8n said:


> If you tie each of the D loop knots on opposing sides of the string, there is no torque. Like this:
> 
> View attachment 5212393


I have always been curious as to why the standard isn't done flipping it like this? I went from a Tru Ball release with a swivel head where I was able to position it to put as little torque on the D loop as possible. But now on a fixed Stan, release torque is more on my mind lately. I have been pondering flipping my D loop to this.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Opposing knots on d-loop is the standard (and also reduces torque) at least that's always what I've been told & taught. (And that alternate d-loop know that Dwayne uses also looks interesting by the way.)

Never used to trust the knots, and for that reason I used to use the continuous ones that you have to slip over the string which means pressing bow. But..... I don't use them anymore, haven't in over a decade.

Never had a slipping problem when I tie my own loops. For 5+ years, my friends and myself have been hanging from trees (using saddles & Guido's Webs) with one of these (middle size I think) bungee ends inverted, tied into our saddles. (Using the d-loop as the hanging point.) Makes for a great & stealthy "quick-draw", and we've NEVER had an issue with a loops. Was nervous at first but never had an issue, so I guess I've become very trustworthy. (I am very cautious about tying good loops with a decent melted end, I think that's key!)


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Oncorhynchus said:


> Do you guys burn it before tightening or do it after like I did? Does it matter?


I precut my material to length and burn both ends before going near the bow. that way I get a perfectly consistent loop length, and I have full freedom to burn the ends down at leisure instead of mucking about near the string. never had a loop even look like failing. for me, 115mm cut length over tied nocking points top and bottom works.

I like "stacking" the ends like John Dudley does, and leave the end about 1/8" proud before tensioning, so the knot forms under the blod, and the blob just sits on top providing extra security.

combine BCY rope with the new Easton reverse action pliers and you really cannot go wrong.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

The standard d loop works for me. If you are brave enough try a fishermans loop knot. This knot is used in rope climbing and no stopper knot is used. I use a stopper knot but I have never seen this tag end try to move at all. If you try this knot melt a ball on the ends and see if the ends ever move.

Since this knot is only one loop around the string I could see some serving separation. But then again you could modify the knot and make two loops around the serving.


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## Oncorhynchus (May 19, 2016)

caspian said:


> I precut my material to length and burn both ends before going near the bow. that way I get a perfectly consistent loop length, and I have full freedom to burn the ends down at leisure instead of mucking about near the string. never had a loop even look like failing. for me, 115mm cut length over tied nocking points top and bottom works.
> 
> I like "stacking" the ends like John Dudley does, and leave the end about 1/8" proud before tensioning, so the knot forms under the blod, and the blob just sits on top providing extra security.
> 
> combine BCY rope with the new Easton reverse action pliers and you really cannot go wrong.


Thanks, I am going to try this. I was holding a metal file between the string and the tag end to burn - it was a pain and I was worried about the string the whole time.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Oncorhynchus said:


> Thanks, I am going to try this. I was holding a metal file between the string and the tag end to burn - it was a pain and I was worried about the string the whole time.


I use 5 foot piece lol! (seriously) I tie tie one one side, then the other (short end) and then cut the rest for next time around. (leaving plenty on both ends before burning/tightening) ~ I find it much easier to make a really short d-loop this way. (And that 5 feet of material makes a ton of loops for only a few bucks.)


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

if you use the pull-through-and-cut method then you might as well use a long piece... it makes handling the knots a lot easier and you're not wasting anything.

the main reason I use the precut method is that I get a perfectly consistent length every time, and you can figure it out by undoing a "nice" loop that has frayed and measuring it. add maybe 1/8" to the cut length to allow for burning down.

being able to form the blobs under total control is also nice, but as long as you always keep the flame above the string there is no reason a perfectly good and safe job can't be done on the string too.


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