# Weird paper tears.......



## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

What would cause a 1" high nock tear 10 feet in front of the bow? Whats strange is that when I back off 10-15 yards from the paper, it shoots bullet holes? There doesn't seem to be any fletching contact that I can see.


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## tuxdaddy (Feb 9, 2005)

I'm sorta new at this paper tuning stuff but it almost sounds like your arrow didnt stabilize yet ... You shooting small vanes on your shafts??


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## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

It means your nock is to high, or incorrect arrow stiffness. I'd try moving your nock down, and see how that works. If not then change to the correct arrow shaft.
.


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## Bow1 (Sep 14, 2004)

*That is just the distance*

that the arrow is in perfect flight, move back a little further and it could produce and even different tear. In my opinion you should start right in front of the paper and work back. One guy nailed it it does sound like your knock is too high.

Keith


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## Dusty Britches (Feb 10, 2003)

I had that problem once before, too, about 10 months ago. I eased up to 6 feet - bullet holes. 20 feet - bullet holes. So, I left it alone. Until I changed my cams a month ago, it was shooting perfectly.

Did you do a bare shaft test to test the spine? That will tell you how well spined your arrows are for your set up.


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

rick, since i know what kind of bow you have, (gibblet here), i doubt your nock is too high unless you've backed the poundage down on your bottom limb too much. your nock, on your bow and mine, is getting jerked downward upon firing. a nock high tear usually indicates your getting contact with something on a radical single cam. either its fletching on the dz arm, or the arrow holder, or the shelf, or the cord. the back of your arrow is then bouncing up. try taking 1/8 of turn out of your bottom limb and see what happens, or try moving your nocking pt up. if you go through 5shots arrow rest reviews he explains this nicely on his tt review.


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## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

I would believe that the spine should be fine, I haven't bare shaft tuned it yet but plan to this upcoming week to tell for sure. I plan to super tune it first to get perfect center shot, and then bare shaft tune it after to adjust the bow for spine. 

Anyhow, they are 27 1/2" Gold Tip XT 75/95's with a 100 grain head on them. I have a 29" draw right now shooting 74lbs. According to every arrow selection chart I have seen I should be shooting a .340 spine arrow but I guess spine could potentially be a problem.


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## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

bucknasty said:


> rick, since i know what kind of bow you have, (gibblet here), i doubt your nock is too high unless you've backed the poundage down on your bottom limb too much. your nock, on your bow and mine, is getting jerked downward upon firing. a nock high tear usually indicates your getting contact with something on a radical single cam. either its fletching on the dz arm, or the arrow holder, or the shelf, or the cord. the back of your arrow is then bouncing up. try taking 1/8 of turn out of your bottom limb and see what happens, or try moving your nocking pt up. if you go through 5shots arrow rest reviews he explains this nicely on his tt review.


I guess you may be right, I just don't see anything on the fletchings that would indicate that contact is happening. Next time I go I will bring a tube of lipstick to put on the fletchings to see if I can find any contact.

My knock set was between 1/8" and 1/4" high originally when this started, however I don't know what it is set at now after adjusting stuff last night, I have to check it this weekend to know how high the loop/nock point is.

Also, I have both of my limbs tightened the whole way.....is this not how it should be set?


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## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

bucknasty has a good point, if you have adjusted the wieght or even not, your limb bolts could have moved, I'd also check the tiller, and maybe your timing is off on your drop away, if the arm is not getting out of the way, then that is where yoiu are getting unwanted contact. On my Hoyt's my quite tune picks the arrow up the last 1-1 1/2 inches, and no problems. I'd start by checking tiller if thats OK, then check nock position, if need to reset that if is off, and go from there.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

After hearing that you are shooting the 75/95's I think that is part of the problem. I think the 55/75's are more suited for your setup and maybe the stiffer spine is causing the tear problems.

Adjust the tiller and nock height and then try a more suitable spined arrow, I bet you'll have the problem solved.

Jon


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## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

jonnybow said:


> After hearing that you are shooting the 75/95's I think that is part of the problem. I think the 55/75's are more suited for your setup and maybe the stiffer spine is causing the tear problems.
> 
> Adjust the tiller and nock height and then try a more suitable spined arrow, I bet you'll have the problem solved.
> 
> Jon


Everything I have read every where says that I should be shooting a 75/95 or .340 arrow at 74lbs of draw on this fast of a cam with a nearly 28" arrow. I think I have the problem sorted anyhow, I believe it is clearance from my cock vane out setup, I will be twisting them to cock vane up next time I go out and see if this helps. I am pretty sure it is a clearance issue, not a spine issue. I will be bare shaft tuning it a bit once I can get a decent bullet tear to determine spine issues.


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

Here's the chart...


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## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

I have seen that chart many times, however most people I know that have actually bare shaft tuned the S/C patriots or other bows shooting well over 300fps IBO have said that bows with similar draw lengths and weights the .400 spine arrows are under spined and you should always go with .340. I don't think GT made those charts with a 318-325fps IBO rated bow in mind.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Rick James said:


> I have seen that chart many times, however most people I know that have actually bare shaft tuned the S/C patriots or other bows shooting well over 300fps IBO have said that bows with similar draw lengths and weights the .400 spine arrows are under spined and you should always go with .340. I don't think GT made those charts with a 318-325fps IBO rated bow in mind.


Absolutely....


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## elkaddict (Feb 9, 2005)

I'm shooting two different Patriot SC bows, one at 71 and the at 74lbs. I'm shooting 29"DL and 271/2" arrows. Both bows clearly prefer the 7595s when paper tuning. Although it has taken some effort w/ one of the bows, its clear from the paper tuning the 5575s are too weak spined for this hard of cam. On one of my bows, I was having fletching contact w/ cables as the bowtech slide did not not pull them over far enough. You might take a look at that. Diagnosing that problem and fixing it took care of nearly all of my tuning difficulties.


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

rick, if you take 1/8 of a turn out of the bottom limb bolt it will lessen the tendency of the bow to jerk the nock down, reducing nock travel.


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## Rick James (Oct 7, 2004)

bucknasty said:


> rick, if you take 1/8 of a turn out of the bottom limb bolt it will lessen the tendency of the bow to jerk the nock down, reducing nock travel.


Good info, I will do this too then before I start my next tuning session. I might wait until I finally get my new bracket in from TR though before I do all of this so I don't have to start over again when it comes in finally..........


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## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

I did the same thing, and turned cockfeather up, and greatly improved arrow flight. 
Good luck.


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## cassellm (Feb 13, 2004)

*Rest*

What type of rest are you shooting? Sometimes too much spring tension on a shoot through will cause a high tear.


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

A little high tear isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some of us actually like that better over a bullet hole close up. Usually it's more forgiving. Yours is just a little high so it's ok. If it was really high and didn't bullet hole when you moved further like yours. Then something is really wrong.


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

btw, i got my new mounting bracket in the mail today. its everything it should have been. i agree with ian also. nothing wrong with a little nock high and left for a right handed shooter.


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## littlebubba (Aug 28, 2002)

Why are you paper tuning at 10 feet away. Try 3 feet and if the cut is good leave it alone. The reason for the good cut at 15 yards is the fletching has done its job stablizing the arrow.
Bubba


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

bubba, its very possible to get a good tear from 3 ft and have a bad one at 6. that's why you check different distances. your arrow can happen to be in a part of its porposing or fishtailing that gives you a good tear, but not really be tuned.


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## littlebubba (Aug 28, 2002)

bucknasty said:


> bubba, its very possible to get a good tear from 3 ft and have a bad one at 6. that's why you check different distances. your arrow can happen to be in a part of its porposing or fishtailing that gives you a good tear, but not really be tuned.


Buck,
Maybe one shot, but good cuts at 3 feet consistently you are good to go. Once the arrow gets away from the bow the fletching corrects for any mistuning. If you are getting bad tears at 15 ft. you got serious problems.
Bubba


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

littlebubba said:


> Buck,
> Maybe one shot, but good cuts at 3 feet consistently you are good to go.
> Bubba



uh, if that's good enough for you... btw though, i don't paper tune anymore. there are better ways imho.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we begin to paper tune!


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## Medic167 (Feb 25, 2005)

jonnybow said:


> After hearing that you are shooting the 75/95's I think that is part of the problem. I think the 55/75's are more suited for your setup and maybe the stiffer spine is causing the tear problems.
> 
> Adjust the tiller and nock height and then try a more suitable spined arrow, I bet you'll have the problem solved.
> 
> Jon



I too have seen the chart you posted many times and for a long time shot 5575 GT because the "chart said so". Well, I had erratic paper tear and my accuracy very inconsistant so I decided to try a stiffer spine. BAM! Bullet holes and my first ever robinhood. The Bowtechs(for that fact many of the new bows) have so fast a string speed it is deflecting the light spine. The chart is technically correct but in the real world the heavier spine just may be the right one.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

Medic167 said:


> The Bowtechs(for that fact many of the new bows) have so fast a string speed it is deflecting the light spine. The chart is technically correct but in the real world the heavier spine just may be the right one.


That is very true. Bows have become more efficient (meaning faster for the same draw/poundge) but the tables do not reflect it.

I'm having the same problem, although I shoot fingers at lower poundage.
Tables spines are clearly underspined.


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## solohunter (Feb 22, 2005)

What Medic said. I have seen guys go by the GT chart and had a few problems then went to the 7595 and bingo! I am on the border of 3555-5575 and had good luck with 5575. I have ordered a BowTech Liberty VFT and will try some 5575s and see what happens. I use most 
"charts" as a starting point, then go from there. From what I have read, the heavier spined GT may work better in a BowTech. I will probably set it up at 65# with 29in draw length. I have discussed this with my BowTech dealer and we are going try both.
Solohunter


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## jonnybow (Aug 27, 2002)

I hadn't heard or seen any issues with the Liberty or any BowTech prior to the Binary cams. I shoot a Liberty for hunting and the 55/75's seem spined perfectly for my 70#, they punch perfect holes anyway and group beautifully.

With the new cams, I can see why going up a size will help. I haven't tried the XT's with my Allegiance but am setting up some Pro Series 22's to shoot 3D.

Jon


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