# Compound, bow arm height vs. shoulder height question



## makassiouk (Jun 19, 2017)

Hi. First about my history/level: shooting for about a couple of years, target, in- and outdoors. Training 3 times a week at a club but have to pretty much coach myself at this point. Was shooting 562-ish/600 for a while, recently registered personal best 569/600 at 18m. 
I am of general opinion that the elbow should not be 100% extended/locked, so that there's a tiny push forward once you break the shot. I know there are different opinions on this, I seem to be doing better this way.
I am trying to work on improving my bow arm stability - sometimes i manage to somehow "catch" the proper cycle during a training when the shoulder, shoulderblade and arm would seem to sit properly, other times I can't seem to find good position and struggle. 
So, to begin with, any advice in this area is appreciated. 

I watched a video where a coach talks about bow arm being above shoulder level is beneficial for stability. So, first of all, I'd like to ask if there is a consensus on this. I looked at my own form, and it seems that in my case arm could be level or even a bit lower than the shoulder. So, the question is, how do i work on this? I mean, given that I keep my anchoring position, what do i adjust on the bow to get the bow arm to go higher? Shorten draw length? It's probably dumb, but I don't get how do i continue to send arrows to the same place if the bow arm is higher?

Movements of the pin I would characterize them as float rather than jumping around, so that could speak in favor of shortening draw length, right?

Confused, as you can see.
Thanks in advance!


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

makassiouk said:


> I am trying to work on improving my bow arm stability - sometimes i manage to somehow "catch" the proper cycle during a training when the shoulder, shoulderblade and arm would seem to sit properly, other times I can't seem to find good position and struggle.
> So, to begin with, any advice in this area is appreciated.


The key to stability is bone-on-bone form while minimizing un-necessary tension. Without the benefit of observing you shoot, it sounds like you've got it sometimes and sometimes you don't. A likely cause may be residual tension due to inconsistent breath control. Start paying attention to how you are regulating your breathing pattern when it is working well and compare it to when the shot just won't settle. I would bet that when it doesn't settle that you are holding more air pressure in your chest which in turn elevates the whole shoulder girdle. 



makassiouk said:


> I watched a video where a coach talks about bow arm being above shoulder level is beneficial for stability. So, first of all, I'd like to ask if there is a consensus on this. I looked at my own form, and it seems that in my case arm could be level or even a bit lower than the shoulder. So, the question is, how do i work on this? I mean, given that I keep my anchoring position, what do i adjust on the bow to get the bow arm to go higher? Shorten draw length? It's probably dumb, but I don't get how do i continue to send arrows to the same place if the bow arm is higher?


The key on the bow side shoulder is that it is low in the shoulder socket before starting the draw cycle and that it remains there through out the shot. Why? Because that low in the socket position enables bone-on-bone form while minimizing recruiting excess (and unnecessary) tension to either force the shoulder back down or to recruit smaller shoulder muscles to stabilize the shoulder under the load of drawing the bow and then in the subsequent steps of the shot process.

Let's assume a target centered at the height of your jaw. If you start the draw cycle with the sight just above the center of the target, your bow hand will be slightly above your bow shoulder. The resulting loads through your bow arm will keep the upper arm low in shoulder socket. On the other hand, if you start with the sight below center, you will be forcing the bow shoulder to go high out of position.

Could you shorten the draw length to force the bow arm to go higher as you ask? Sure. Would the arrow go to "the same place" they went before -- not likely. But that's not the real question. You can address a new point of impact with a sight adjustment. The real question is what happens to the sight picture! And that leads directly to the last part of your question. 



makassiouk said:


> Movements of the pin I would characterize them as float rather than jumping around, so that could speak in favor of shortening draw length, right?


Generally, yes a long, loose float that is just too big translates to too long, while a rapid jittery sight picture indicates one that is too short.

Think of it this way. There are two draw lengths that form a system in your world.

The first is that which your form requires. This draw length requirement accounts for all the elements of your form that create a distance between your bow hand and the jaw of your release.

The second draw length in your world is that subtended by all the aspects of the bow between the pivot point of the grip and the place where the release hooks up to the bow. This accounts for not only the bow's actual draw length but also the length of the d-loop and the characteristics of the grip. 

When the second draw length (that of the bow) fits the first (that which you require), you get the most stable sight picture. That is assuming a fundamentally sound form. 

What do you mean by shortening the draw length? Bow in perfect specs and changing cams or draw modules? If so, does your form require a draw length exactly on a 1 inch or 1/2 inch increment?

There are several adjustments you can make to change draw lengths subtended by the bow part of the system. First, get a gross adjustment by changing the cam or module. Second, (not technically part of draw length as defined by the industry but part of the bow component of this system) is adjust the length of the d-loop. This is a difficult proposition to do with the degree of finite specific adjustments that can be accomplished in other ways. Third, you can adjust the cables -- shorter cables (twisting them tighter) subtends a longer draw length. Fourth, you can adjust the bowstring -- longer string (removing a twist) subtends a longer draw length. Fifth, for parallel limbed bows -- lower draw weight (backing off the limb bolts) also subtends a longer draw length.

So back to the question is your draw length too long or too short? From your own words, "sometimes i manage to somehow "catch" the proper cycle during a training when the shoulder, shoulderblade and arm would seem to sit properly, other times I can't seem to find good position and struggle." Assuming you had the draw length perfect, how would the sight react if you tweaked the draw length just a 1/16" longer or shorter? In either case, longer or shorter, the sight won't settle as well as it would have had you left it set perfectly. But how do you KNOW if the draw length is slightly long or slightly short? 

Does it really matter? Pick a direction -- to go longer or shorter. Make a specific finite change and take notes. If the bow settles better, then you probably went the right direction. Room for more? Continue in the same direction. But wait, that last tweak made it worse. Then, go back and undo the last tweak.

But before you start tweaking the draw length, take a hard look at how consistent your form is or isn't. When you're not catching it, look for inconsistencies in your breathing pattern, look for inconsistencies in how the grip rests in your bow hand, and finally look for inconsistencies in residual tension in your draw forearm and hand.


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## makassiouk (Jun 19, 2017)

Hi 
I used some time to swallow and try to digest. Thank you for the quality answer. This place is awesome 
Let's see if I got this. Draw length of the bow must fit me - i.e. optimal draw length defined by my anatomy, style of anchoring and release aid. That's kind of a "duh" moment - well, of course, that's what we are looking for. 
I am actually not sure what increments PSE Supra allows to adjust draw length in - it's either 1/2" or 1/4". 
So, what you are saying is "start to carefully experiment by choosing a direction and moving there". That's kind of what I started to do in anticipation of the answer, last thursday, continued on sunday. I went ahead and shortened bow draw length by one step which is what I could do in 2 minutes - by far the easiest variable to adjust (module + stop on the same cam). To begin with, i liked the new feeling well enough to continue experimenting - this sort of springy feel in the bow hand upon breaking of the shot was what I was after, plus it did feel like my sight picture is calmer. Grouping was crap though, which I thought was due to just thinking too carefully of the bow arm and the shot sequence. 
Once I settled with the change (1 and a half training of blank-baling and paper dish shooting), I was able to shoot a pretty sweet round, 288/300 is for me a very, VERY good round. So I decided to let it settle and see if i can confirm the improvement. I am a bit wary of making changes quickly, especially now as the club is about to move to the outdoor range, where everything will once again be new. So I want to see what the rest of 18m shooting will show.

Interesting concept is the "bone-on-bone". I am starting to get a feeling that different people mean different things by that. I realize we are in the area where it is difficult to explain stuff with words, so i try to not overthink this.
Let me ask you this, just to see which cohort you belong to: fully extended arm and locked elbow, or slightly rounded elbow (with big emphasis on "slightly")?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

LOCKED, truly LOCKED is not a good thing.










IS this fully "locked"?

How about this guy. Is his arm "fully" locked?










Now, this guy is absolutely fully locked.










Hyper extensive elbow. Nope, his elbow is not broken. This is full extension for him. His elbow rotates beyond 180 degrees. Slightly, sort of, a tiny bit, kinda straight, sort of bent but just only just so. Really meaningless terms. Time to post a photo.


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

makassiouk said:


> I am actually not sure what increments PSE Supra allows to adjust draw length in - it's either 1/2" or 1/4".


See page 20 of the owners manual. https://pse-archery.com/download/11652/

It looks like PSE adjusts by 1/2 inch increments based on cam adjustments. But don't forget, the cam is not the only way to adjust the draw length. 

All of my bows adjust in 1/2 increments using cam changes or cam modules. But, I am shooting best with a draw length that fits me -- at 29 1/16 inches. How about that extra 1/16 of an inch? Twisting cables tighter and removing twists from the string to get that extra 1/16 of an inch.



makassiouk said:


> Interesting concept is the "bone-on-bone". I am starting to get a feeling that different people mean different things by that. I realize we are in the area where it is difficult to explain stuff with words, so i try to not overthink this.
> Let me ask you this, just to see which cohort you belong to: fully extended arm and locked elbow, or slightly rounded elbow (with big emphasis on "slightly")


Neither. My bow arm is fully extended with no attempt to lock out my elbow and definitely no bend induced so that I would be depending on the tricep to hold the arm extended. 

Think about it this way. Stand up. Are your legs straight? Yes. Knees locked? No? Stand there a little bit. Your thighs burning yet? Your calves? Your glutes?

Ok now bend your knees a little -- take your pick 15 degrees bent, 45 degrees bent, 90 degrees bent ... your choice. Now stand there again. How are your legs doing with that little bit of bend?

Now have a seat and rest your legs for a few minutes. Then stand up and this time add the effort to lock out your knees. Can you feel the tension in your legs and hips?

Now think about your bow arm and bow shoulder! Which approach would tire you the least? The bent arm? The tensed up locked out arm? Or the naturally aligned arm that only recruits the muscles necessary to maintain alignment? I'm betting the last option works best. But don't take my word for it -- you try it. What works best for somebody else may not be what works best for you.


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