# So, why weren't YOU in Decatur?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thought this could be an interesting and informative topic.

If you didn't attend Nationals last week, but wanted to, what kept you from going?


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Health! Four strokes since 2005 and a partially torn rotator cuff Impossible for me to shoot that many arrows. Would love to come and shoot but just not possible physically.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I originally was planning on going there (even to the point of reserving a hotel room); but I eventually decided against it. I would say for me three things that kept me from going are:

1) This is the first year for me to shoot competitively. I have been shooting at some of the local tournaments around my area, and right now preparing for our state NFAA 900 round which is happening at the bow club that I am a member of here in Shreveport. I did shoot our local 900 round about a month ago shooting barebow and did ok at it. 
2) The money. Since I have been getting into competitive shooting, and now my wife is wanting to start shooting, and starting up a JOAD club; me spending around a $1000.00 for one tournament, just didn't seem a feasible place that my money should be going. Instead I bought a new Gillo riser, working on a new stabilizer setup, bought my wife a sight and scope (she loves shooting 3d), and setup the JOAD club, which was well over $500.00 by itself.
3) Also this time in my day job is probably the busiest time in our year, and I have been travelling every week for the past month. So I really didn't have time to prepare effectively in my opinion.

Anyway to sum it all up, for me to go and shoot at this National tournament now, would have really been for me to be able to say that I shot in a National tournament, for I haven't gotten good enough yet in my opinion, to be competitive as of yet. Hopefully next year I will be good enough to put a good showing, and can justify spending the money on a weekend like this. But this year...I like my new riser.

I have to say though that I am shifting back to OR, in case I am able to go to the Texas Shootout. I am gunning for that tournament, and hopefully I can prepare effectively for it. Right now it is our state tournament I am gunning for.


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## NOVABB (Feb 7, 2013)

1. World Police and Fire games were at the same time. My club was one of the host groups that helped set up and manage the target archery field. 
2. Alabama in July is tough to begin-with but throw in 4th of July holiday traffic and a minimum of 10 hour of driving if there are no accidents/ heavy traffic or roadwork.
3. While my family supports my hobby they were not agreeable to going to "one of my tournaments" (insert eye roll to the heavens) over the 4th of July.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

NOVABB said:


> 3. While my family supports my hobby they were not agreeable to going to "one of my tournaments" (insert eye roll to the heavens) over the 4th of July.


Word +1


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

NOVABB, 

The traffic was pretty fantastic if you ask me. WAY better than Hamilton. Not even close IMO. Hotels to the venue were literally 5 minutes and one stop sign. 

Of course, you may have meant getting there, but still, I felt the drive and daily commute were the easiest yet.

Hopefully next year we won't have to deal with the holiday weekend, so we'll see.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

1) Not able to sight on 70m bale yet. If I change to lighter arrows/points I can, but I'm working with the equipment I have...
2) Arrows won't tune until I can pull more weight.
3) Saving the PTO/Vaca days for later, running a bit low there! :embara:
4) Skipping a big July 4 family gathering for a tournament would bring _even more_ family-wide hate toward this sport.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I only get a few weeks of vacation time, and I'm only going to use so much of it to shoot things that don't end up in my freezer. That being the case, I'm already using a week of that time for the NFAA field nationals later this month.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

I was there physically but not mentally 

Talking with some of my shooting partners and trying to prod them into coming with me. A lot of them cited one of two reasons:

1) Cost
2) Holiday weekend


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think the numbers this year were equal to or greater than last year. Imagine if it hadn't been a holiday weekend. Next year, we may break 1100, or even 1200 archers.


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## deadeyedickwc (Jan 10, 2010)

i still disagree with it moving from colorado springs , i know this is old news , but it seems the weather at the other 2 spots was a lot worse than it ever was or is in colorado .being in alabama in july isn't where i want to be no matter how good the shoot is,


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Interesting question. No money. I'm wondering if I can scrape together enough to get to Las Vegas in 2016, let alone get on an airplane. Right now I am limited to shoots that don't require aircraft or hotel rooms.


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## tbrash01 (Oct 7, 2010)

Reasons I did not go...
1) 4th of July Weekend 
2) Alabama in the summer... 
3) Not a Grand FITA anymore! 70m only. I understand keeping close to WAO but there are already plenty of 70m only events state side.


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## Sean.Magnusen (Aug 6, 2014)

It spanned my 10 year wedding anniversary, and considering indoor state was on valentines day, outdoor state was on my mom's birthday, and outdoor regionals is going to be on my wife's birthday, I didn't want to push it. This being my first year shooting, I don't think the timing of the tournaments is making a great impression on the wife...

Also, being over 4th of July weekend definitely didn't help.


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## Mombo59 (May 3, 2013)

I had Carpel Tunnel surgery on both hands at the first of the year. I was hoping to recover by now, but alas, I am not.
Tony


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## Shooterdad (Apr 30, 2014)

I wanted to bring my daughter but it was a holiday weekend and that ended that. Plus we were in Alabama the week before hanging out on one of their beautiful beaches.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

The fear of seeing a grown man with his T Shirt tucked into his shorts 

Or the fact that I'm not American of course Lol


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Being a barebow shooter, I wanted to be there really really bad. I wanted to be part of the head count to show USAA that there are a lot of barebow shooters out there, and that we are not afraid of shooting distances.

I wasn't planning to be competitive, there are a lot of really good shooters out there. But with my new bow, I am shelf on the dot at 60m, and at a recent field shoot, I was scoring all of my arrows at 65 yards on a 65cm target. I could have given John a challenge at the tournament.

Buy why didn't I go? It all came down to money. The cheapest airfair I was tracking was $850 round trip. 6 nights at a hotel assuming a cheap one at $100 a night adds another $600, Rental car for another $75/day another $450, food at $50/day for another $300 for a trip cost of $2200 just in travel. Not counting tournament fees, and buying several overpriced t-shirts (1 got to have those t-shirts). So it was looking like a $2500 trip for me. That is a huge chunk out of the family budget, and a week's precious vacation time from work to be away from the family.

I was just about to byte the bullet and through it all on the credit card and worry about paying it off over the next several months, when God stepped in and seized up the calipers on my truck that cost $1100 to fix. When that happened all hopes to come down was crushed into stinky smelly rotor dust.

Bottom line, it was the cost to travel to the event.

A lot of people think the tournament fees are expensive. Well, on a comparison of total travel costs, the tournament fees are the least expensive thing you buy.

I am not going to Mechanicsburg this year for the same reason - cost.

I am not going to the USAA FITA Field championships at Yankton for the same reason - cost. Yankton, why Yankton. If it was in Texas, I would have turned it into a family vacation since my wife's family is in Texas. I can drop them off with family and go shoot the tournament. If it was in Spokane I would be there because its only a 6 hr drive to get there, and I know several very nice hotels for under $100 a night.


Now if you look at Vegas, it is dirt cheap to fly to, hotels are dirt cheap, food is dirt cheap, and shuttles from the airport to the shoot are dirt cheap and you don't need a rental car. One can do Vegas for under $1000 including the paying the Championship fees. There is a reason why it draws over 2500 people. It is cheap to shoot.

I contend that the Nationals would easily draw 1000 more competitors if the cost to travel and compete was less than $1000.

Its all about the pure cost to compete that drives the attendance down. It has nothing to do with what weekend it is or what the weather is like.

Bottom line, it is all about the cost to compete.

Pete


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## Blackshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

I run my own business, just me, and summer time is my busiest season. Therefore if I take time off I lose money to spend money


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I REALLY wanted to be there. 

1. I have kids and playing Mr Mom for the last 8 months, since the wife is deployed.
2. Even without #1, cost might have prevented it. Airfare, motel, rent a car... well over 2 K from the west coast. 
3. Alabama in July? Ok, that wouldn't have stopped me, but I hate muggy weather  

I did not attend any of the shoots I normally attend this year, such as Redding, Nevada City, Oregon Safari, Louisville or Vegas, NFAA Outdoor, because of #1 above. However, I will next year, God willing.
I really want to attend the NFAA 900 round at the end of Sept, the cost is ridiculous due to it being Yankton, but will not stop me.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

There are always people to share expenses with. I think some over exaggerate expenses quite a bit. Lol 
Pete, I ate 15 bucks a day and hoteled it at 40 a night. Oh yeah, I joined a gym for the week at a total of 10 bucks for the whole week. Lol


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

Learned a few month ago that I was being transferred to Houston. The move happened on July 2nd.

Also, I did try to sell to my better half going there on July 4th week-end, before knowing about the transfer. It didn't go well...


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## DWilloughby (Dec 26, 2014)

Demmer said:


> There are always people to share expenses with. I think some over exaggerate expenses quite a bit. Lol
> Pete, I ate 15 bucks a day and hoteled it at 40 a night. Oh yeah, I joined a gym for the week at a total of 10 bucks for the whole week. Lol


Did you have enough money left over to buy a riser or limbs?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

DWilloughby said:


> Did you have enough money left over to buy a riser or limbs?


Shhh!!! Lol


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> being in alabama in july isn't where i want to be no matter how good the shoot is,





> Alabama in July?





> Alabama in the summer...


Gents, we nearly froze to death 80% of the time.  Reminded me a LOT of CoSprings actually.

Remember, it's almost Tennessee up there in Decatur.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> There are always people to share expenses with. I think some over exaggerate expenses quite a bit. Lol
> Pete, I ate 15 bucks a day and hoteled it at 40 a night. Oh yeah, I joined a gym for the week at a total of 10 bucks for the whole week. Lol


Winner!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> NOVABB,
> 
> The traffic was pretty fantastic if you ask me. WAY better than Hamilton. Not even close IMO. Hotels to the venue were literally 5 minutes and one stop sign.
> 
> ...


if you got a room early you are right. the judges were supposed to be 6 minutes from the field but that hotel wasn't ready so they were in Huntsville-a good half hour drive
other archers had to stay in Athens or even farther away. . we had about 30 minutes of delay on I65 North going home-first near Nashville and worse in Bowling Green near Mammoth cave. not a bad drive-sure better than say South Dakota


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's why Karin, Allie and I went straight to Decatur from Hamilton last year. We walked through literally every hotel in Decatur and toured the field. Ended up renting a house 40 min. from the venue and slept like the dead every night, which was awesome.


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## Darryl Longbow (Apr 11, 2003)

Three reasons, life changing surgery on July 1. Ben would not be there for me to argue with. The weather nor humidity would be hot enough for me to be comfortable but what do you expect from someone raised in the Everglades. Life starts at 98 degrees and high humidity, think I should change my name to Gill man. Seriously they almost had to cut my head off to get to some disc that already had a prior surgery and had a massive bone growth over it.


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## bowmaster1972 (Oct 22, 2012)

In the Army Band. No chance of getting off on one of our busiest times of the year. Had to play for the local fireworks show. And I'm still recovering from a finger injury.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Down a man at my job, so no way to get the time off. Holiday weekend with my 12 year old son, who still thinks dad is cool.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Demmer said:


> There are always people to share expenses with. I think some over exaggerate expenses quite a bit. Lol
> Pete, I ate 15 bucks a day and hoteled it at 40 a night. Oh yeah, I joined a gym for the week at a total of 10 bucks for the whole week. Lol


$40 a night for a hotel? wow that is practically free down there. Up here the dive hotels are $60 a night. When the cheapest hotel costs hit $100 a night, I sleep in my truck. What kind of food can you get for $15 a day. When I lived off of the Taco Bell and Wendy's Double Stacks for $1, I weighed 254 pounds. I have since quit eating the cheap food and started eating healthy, and have shed 40# so far. But healthy food is bloody expensive. I miss those bean burritos.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Money, lack of vacation time, dislike of shooting nothing but 50M and maybe a little laziness.

Had planned on going to the Senior Games in Minneapolis but after sitting down and figuring projected costs, and the fact I would burn 2/3's of my limited vacation time, I decided not to go. 

Looks like y'all got the dirty end of the stick weather wise. Ohio was pretty nice during that week. Maybe it is not the location but USA Archery that drives the bad weather during Outdoor Nationals ;-)

And I wouldn't count on going back to the same venue next year...I saw pictures of what y'all did to that nice facility. Looked like Woodstock with all the mud and torn up grass. I'll bet the groundskeepers are a tad bit po'd right now. LOL.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

PB&J's are cheap. 



> Maybe it is not the location but USA Archery that drives the bad weather during Outdoor Nationals ;-)


I think you're on to something. Either that, or God heard all the whining about the heat and decided to give us 70 degrees and rain instead. LOL.



> And I wouldn't count on going back to the same venue next year...I saw pictures of what y'all did to that nice facility. Looked like Woodstock with all the mud and torn up grass. I'll bet the groundskeepers are a tad bit po'd right now. LOL.


I had the same concern. I started referring to the 30M field as "the dairy farm" after a while. That's exactly what it looked like.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Adjoining rooms in a 'dive' motel for a whopping total of $424 for the week which actually turned out quite nice (although not everyone would go for it, we've traveled through se Asia so our standards are flexible) and a 12 minute drive. All in for a family of five for about $1025 including several meals out with the Fl/GA people and three nights at sports bars watching women's world cup soccer w the family. If we had eaten like we normally do it would have been about $250 cheaper.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

My season so far this year has been Lancaster,Vegas,Louisville,1ASA,3IBO including one in south Texas...I'm not filthy rich but I know I've been to more big tournament shoots this year than most...BUT the #1 reason is my family does a 4th of July bash at our farm every year and I WON'T miss it....for nobody or no shoot....family first.

I would have loved to have been and if it's a different Weekend next year I will be there, I love competition.



Dewayne Martin


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## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Thought this could be an interesting and informative topic.
> 
> If you didn't attend Nationals last week, but wanted to, what kept you from going?


Left shoulder orthopaedic surgery on June 2nd.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Pretty sure we won't see another one of these on the 4th of July again. I keep hearing that as a reason folks didn't attend, and I can completely understand it. It's a big day for families to gather, and rightly so.

Sounds like they haven't secured Decatur for a 2nd year yet, but I sure hope they do. It was a great venue.


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## vaguru (Jan 2, 2003)

I was planning to go also, but health issues and then a late decision to visit from out of state family (900 miles away we only see them maybe once a year), put the shoot back on the bucket list.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Definitely great attendance considering this event was held on the 4th of July hopefully next year it will be a different weekend with even greater attendance


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Considering the positive comments I've heard about this venue and the room for expansion there, if they choose another weekend we could easily see it go from 1000 to 1500 next year. The "big show" is going to get even bigger I think.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

hdracer said:


> And I wouldn't count on going back to the same venue next year...I saw pictures of what y'all did to that nice facility. Looked like Woodstock with all the mud and torn up grass. I'll bet the groundskeepers are a tad bit po'd right now. LOL.


Spoke with the facility manager on the last day and she indicated that the condition of all the fields were expected and that they had events that did far more damage than we did. They wait for it to dry a little bit and then they start rolling the fields. This flattens out any irregularities, then they let it dry and mow it. The biggest concern was with the vendor who drove off path and floored it when he thought he was stuck, causing a deep tire rut. They were a little unhappy with that guy.


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## AdAstraAirow (Aug 22, 2011)

The barebow divisions for this year's Alabama event were announced long after February when I had submitted my entry for the National Senior Games in Minneapolis (dependably excellent summer weather conditions) The NSG began just one travel day following the event in Decatur and I could not swing the time and discretionary income for back to back events and miss the 4th of July with family. If next year's event has an earlier announcement and does not occur on the 4th weekend, I would strongly consider it.

Mark


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Let's hope it is Mark.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

The combination of my wife not having any vacation time and not wanting to be away from her and the kids on the holiday nixed it for me. A move to later in July sounds great.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I just looked at airfare costs on Expedia if the event was the first week of August. Roundtrip from Seattle ranged from $550 to $940. The same week to Vegas ranged from 270 to $550, to Los Angles $210 to $570, to Dallas $270 to $810, to Chicago $440 to 760, and to New York $460 to $770. Decatur is the most expensive place to fly into.

4th of July weekend, a holiday weekend, is also bad for airfare costs. I was tracking the flights to Decatur for a couple months hoping the price would come down, but they ranged from $850 to well over $1000. I don't mind flying red-eye to get a cheap flight.

If the event was held in Salt Lake, how many of the people that drove to Decatur would compete in Salt Lake? I would say it would be a small fraction of them would. But it would get more west coast people to show up. Overall attendance numbers may not change because the demographics shifted.

I contend that cost is the number #1 consideration for most people, especially those that have to work and pay for the entire trip out of their own pocket. How many Americans travel to Europe to compete in their events when they are paying for it out of their own pocket and are not part of the US archery team? 

Unfortunately, this is just a reality of competing at a higher level, and there isn't much one can do about it. About the only thing event organizers can do, is try to find locations and times that can minimize travel costs. Or at least I hope the organizers consider this as part of their selection process.

If I have the funds for next year, I plan to be there. Its on my major tournament bucket list, along with Vegas (cheap flight), Redding (8hr drive), NFAA Outdoors (3 hr drive), and the USAA FITA Field (location ???).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Why would you price flights into Decatur? Most folks flew into Nashville and rented a car for the week.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Why would you price flights into Decatur? Most folks flew into Nashville and rented a car for the week.


Bingo! Way cheaper to Nashville.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

If you can't quite fit it into your expense account next year, just ask us. We have solutions to some problems. Lol


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Demmer said:


> If you can't quite fit it into your expense account next year, just ask us. We have solutions to some problems. Lol


True that!


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Why would you price flights into Decatur? Most folks flew into Nashville and rented a car for the week.


Actually all of the flights were going to Huntsville. Nothing was to Decatur itself. Had to rent a car for that last part of the trip. Didn't think about Nashville. I will keep that one in mind for next year - thanks


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

By some measures Huntsville has been the most expensive airport in the nation for 6 or more years. And no Direct Flights from the West Coast. So, Nashville for me too.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I think Mr roboto has hit the nail on the head. Its all about cost $$

Wish it was in a cheaper place like vegas.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, expense is always an issue. We had several families in our club alone who backed out at the last minute because they simply could not afford the trip. Shame too, as their kids work very hard at their archery.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Yes, expense is always an issue. We had several families in our club alone who backed out at the last minute because they simply could not afford the trip. Shame too, as their kids work very hard at their archery.


the Decatur hotels seemed to be a bit more pricey than equivalent offerings in the Butler county Ohio area


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

I flew into Birmingham, AL on Southwest with my points. It was a 1.25 hour drive. 

Shared a room and rental car. Total cost with food and additional expenses was no more than $700.

Get those airline miles, folks!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> the Decatur hotels seemed to be a bit more pricey than equivalent offerings in the Butler county Ohio area


Perhaps, but they were a LOT closer to the field.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I stayed for 43ish a night 18 minutes away. I found cheaper and so did Gabe. You can ask him if you don't believe me. [emoji2] If my friend came, would have been less than 22 a night. Idk how much less you can expect. Oh yeah, I booked it while on the practice field at the venue. Lol


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Perhaps, but they were a LOT closer to the field.


if you managed to get one that was-as we did since we booked last July. the judge's hotel was a half hour a way and some people were 45 minutes to an hour away

so if you averaged out the hotel to field time, I think Hamilton came out ahead. I don't know of anyone who was 40 minutes away at Hamilton. plus at Hamilton you had the choice of 5 airports within 2 hours or so

Cincinnati (40 minutes) Dayton-50 minutes, Indy-less than 2 hours, Columbus-100 minutes, Louisville-130 minutes


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The judge's hotel was an anomaly. The hotel they were supposed to be staying in has over 150 rooms and was behind schedule on renovation. They were renovating it a year ago when I went through. It will be done by next year, giving folks another great option for places to stay, not to mention a brand new hotel right on the riverfront. 

I'm sorry Jim, but there is no way Hamilton comes out ahead on the hotel time. I drove to several of the hotels people were staying in at Hamilton, and because of the traffic, it took us more than 40 minutes to get to most of them. Only the host hotel was a reasonable distance - about the same as most of the hotels in Decatur. I don't think folks missed the North Cinci traffic.

Airports - Nashville is 1:40 from Decatur. Birmingham is 1:15. Huntsville is 0:30. 

I struggle to find a single way Hamilton is better than Decatur. Perhaps there is, but after 3 years in Ohio and one year in Decatur, I want to go back to Decatur. Well, really, I want to go back to Colorado Springs, but that never seems to be an option. LOL.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> The judge's hotel was an anomaly. The hotel they were supposed to be staying in has over 150 rooms and was behind schedule on renovation. They were renovating it a year ago when I went through. It will be done by next year, giving folks another great option for places to stay, not to mention a brand new hotel right on the riverfront.
> 
> I'm sorry Jim, but there is no way Hamilton comes out ahead on the hotel time. I drove to several of the hotels people were staying in at Hamilton, and because of the traffic, it took us more than 40 minutes to get to most of them. Only the host hotel was a reasonable distance - about the same as most of the hotels in Decatur. I don't think folks missed the North Cinci traffic.
> 
> ...


that hotel issue was only such because there was a huge music event that draws from all over the midwest

we also continue to note that the Northern Region -is slighted in terms of USAT shoots


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You are consistent Jim! 

The hotel wasn't done, is what I was told. They were in the middle of a major renovation and expansion a year ago. Doesn't surprise me. It will be the hotel of choice for many next year. Nice waterfront views and a nice walk too.

Of course, the host hotel in Hamilton was on the river and my wife and I even walked the riverwalk one evening with our daughter. We met some of the locals too. Three homeless people and two drug dealers.  We didn't walk that riverwalk again, and chose to go back to the state park the next year.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

My money tree stopped growing so unfortunately my archery season is over except for nfaa nationals which is very affordable. Then Likely no more shoots until indoor world trials though that registration fee is just outrageous.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> You are consistent Jim!
> 
> The hotel wasn't done, is what I was told. They were in the middle of a major renovation and expansion a year ago. Doesn't surprise me. It will be the hotel of choice for many next year. Nice waterfront views and a nice walk too.
> 
> Of course, the host hotel in Hamilton was on the river and my wife and I even walked the riverwalk one evening with our daughter. We met some of the locals too. Three homeless people and two drug dealers.  We didn't walk that riverwalk again, and chose to go back to the state park the next year.


Hey your CCW permit is good here in Ohio I think 

same in Alabama. I just hope the field layout is better next year. while some arrows were lost at Hamilton, you at least had a better than even chance of getting them back if you missed. not so on the 50 M field or the 70 meter field. and we had tents four deep at Hamilton, not so much in Alabama.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, I agree that could have been done a little better, but that's one of the very few things IMO. And I preferred the lack of 5-deep tents behind the shooting line. I can't stand spending time in tent city, which is why I always bought a coaches pass and spent all my time with my archers.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Yes, I agree that could have been done a little better, but that's one of the very few things IMO. And I preferred the lack of 5-deep tents behind the shooting line. I can't stand spending time in tent city, which is why I always bought a coaches pass and spent all my time with my archers.


there is talk that only level II or higher coaches would be able to get credentials in the future since many who bought them used them merely to sit under the archers tent which was popular due to the lack of spectator tent space on the field. I would argue against that because each archer has to be treated equally and if I choose say my son-who due to age-cannot be a level II (even though he has sat through level III NTS and understands archery far better than more than a few Level IV coaches I have dealt with) to be my coach, I should have that right as long as he is a USA member which he is. But I saw lots of credentialed "coaches" who did nothing of the sort. 

the two biggest complaints I heard about decatur-other than the weather which is unfair since this was abnormal was

1) lack of spectator space-especially for the parents of the smaller kids

2) the destruction of arrows due to poor target placements on the main field and the complete lack of backstop on the 50M field which should have been used for the kids and the 50M should have been on the main field. I don't think anyone can argue against those points

there were lots of good things too. which I have already mentioned


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Hey all:
Not sure if this is the place to post, but here goes. I, for health reasons did not go to Decatur, but have followed the results and posts on this Forum, + and -. I was in Reading, Colorado Springs, Hamilton, so I know the drill. Something that is strong +++ is a dedicated local archery community for support and knowledge of needs, a non-archery related community, no matter how enthusiastic, just does not have a clue to the needs. One of the things that has been posted a lot is arrow misses and the ability and ease of finding them. Arrows, any, arrows cost $, some $ others $$$$$. To leave without some adds to the cost of your trip. My question, is there a Liz/Jim in Decatur to spend several days after the tournament to look for arrows, post on this Forum what they found and send them to their owners for FREE? I would hope so. Hamilton gets my vote. Next year Barebow for me.
Cheers
Fritz


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## h-d tim (Mar 1, 2007)

pencarrow said:


> Hey all:
> is there a Liz/Jim in Decatur to spend several days after the tournament to look for arrows, post on this Forum what they found and send them to their owners for FREE? I would hope so. Hamilton gets my vote. Next year Barebow for me.
> Cheers
> Fritz


Will look Sunday.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Fritz/Jim, the distance behind the bales was a big problem no doubt. My daughter (barebow cadet shooting 50M in that crappy wind and rain) had 4 misses that ended up in the woods. I found two of them. Some other helpful person found the other two. When I went in to that poison ivy infested woodline (I'm not allergic to it) I came out with seven arrows. 

The 70/60 and 50M fields all could have been pulled back at least 20 meters. Hopefully that's going to be done next time. That's a pretty simple fix really.

Jim, if you're right about LII and higher coaches only getting credentials, that would be great. My vote is to allow L3 and above to simply print a small copy of their certificate and hang it around their necks. I think it's insulting to make a L3 coach pay an additional fee for a coaching credential. Every single L3 and above has already contributed a ton of time and $ to this organization.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

I do believe the July 4th weekend was picked for the needs of the few,,,not the needs of the many. I did not go because there were 3 celebrations that I was invited to with friends. And secondly I decided I could not afford a trip there and to Seniors in Minnesota,,,if I had picked archery over friends that weekend. Perhaps it will be on a better weekend next year. If its on the 4th again,,I would not attend. As for weather,,it could be bad any were,,so you prepare and deal with it. Could all the major archery matches be spread out better,,perhaps,,it would be nice to have an annual match in a more northern region sometime.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

"When I went in to that poison ivy infested woodline (I'm not allergic to it) I came out with seven arrows." 
John :
Lucky you, I puff up like a toad on steroids.
Cheers
Fritz


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

From where many of us live, Northern Alabama is a "northern region."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

pencarrow said:


> "When I went in to that poison ivy infested woodline (I'm not allergic to it) I came out with seven arrows."
> John :
> Lucky you, I puff up like a toad on steroids.
> Cheers
> Fritz


Yea, I know. So does my wife. Which is why, during one of the rain delays, I threw on my Gore-tex and went crawling through that treeline. It was like an arrow scavenger hunt. I had no idea what kind of arrow I might find next!


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Good on you h-d tim. A+A+A+
Cheers
Fritz


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Fritz/Jim, the distance behind the bales was a big problem no doubt. My daughter (barebow cadet shooting 50M in that crappy wind and rain) had 4 misses that ended up in the woods. I found two of them. Some other helpful person found the other two. When I went in to that poison ivy infested woodline (I'm not allergic to it) I came out with seven arrows.
> 
> The 70/60 and 50M fields all could have been pulled back at least 20 meters. Hopefully that's going to be done next time. That's a pretty simple fix really.
> 
> Jim, if you're right about LII and higher coaches only getting credentials, that would be great. My vote is to allow L3 and above to simply print a small copy of their certificate and hang it around their necks. I think it's insulting to make a L3 coach pay an additional fee for a coaching credential. Every single L3 and above has already contributed a ton of time and $ to this organization.


I agree about the 20 dollars given liz and I don't coach for money nor do we demand our archers pay for our credentials. but again, each archer has to be treated equally and its unreasonable to tell one archer that her coach cannot coach her from the same line as say one of my students' coach does because they don't have credentials. I can name 5-6 people without current credentials that I would or have paid to work with my son or wife and would continue to do so ahead of some "Elite coaches"


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, there needs to be some kind of standard since what we have now is basically a joke.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

JIM C and Limbwalker

This level 2 bs rubbed me the wrong way nothing personal but the heck with only allowing level 2 or higher coaches in the tents. I know several parents who are the actual coach of their kids including myself. There should be absolutely no reason I cant stand behind one or both of my kids and coach them through a match because I am the one who has been their coach. I bought a pass and used it in So Cal. My family had to sit in tent city far enough away they had a hard time watching. If I went to nationals I would have purchase a pass for myself and wife. This way one of us could be behind each of our kids. Coaching a kid from tent city is about impossible. "Limbwalker" sorry but one of your comments rubbed me the wrong way but complaining about people that actually have to sit in tent city would show me you think your some kind of elitist. Not all but a big chunk of the coaches I've dealt with who are certified I wouldn't want going near or coaching my kids. I feel they are barley competent at running a shooting line. I have no desire to pay the coaching fees and attend a coaching class to be called coach dad is fine with me. I also have no desire to coach other kids for money. 

What I don't understand is why the archers think they need to bring their bow under the tents. Why archers or spectators think they need to put their garbage on the chairs next to them so other people cant sit down. I cant comment on Alabama because I wasn't there but I can comment on the shoots ive been to. I've seen plenty of available space under the shooters tent its just being used up by crap. Also being a spectator is a joke at most archery events. Nothing worse then driving half way across the country to watch your kid compete and not be able to do it. It would be nice to see an event set up with chairs and shade so a family could actually watch their own kid shoot. I could care less if I had to pay 10-15 bucks per family member and pick a seat at registration. This way I don't have to worry about buying or bringing a tent across the country. 

Love the idea of shooting in the lights at night and having stadium seating behind the archers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well I'm sorry to say you probably won't like this reply either then.



> This level 2 bs rubbed me the wrong way


 Okay. Parents with no certifications buying passes to sit under the athlete's tents rubs me the wrong way. And asking certified coaches who have paid their fees and donated countless hours - to help not just their own kids, but other people's kids - having to buy a credential, rubs me the wrong way.

SWbuckmaster, aside from your own kids, who else do you coach? 

Have you ever used one of those tents as a competitor? Just curious.



> What I don't understand is why the archers think they need to bring their bow under the tents. Why archers or spectators think they need to put their garbage on the chairs next to them so other people cant sit down.


Are you serious? As an ARCHER, I can answer that question for you...

Because those tents are FOR THE ARCHERS. Not the coaches, not the parents. And the archers should be free to use those tents and chairs as they see fit, to help them compete. If an archer wants to set up camp under those tents, so long as it's okay with the OTHER ARCHERS, I'm fine with it. 

If I'm coaching at a major event like a USAT ranking or Nationals, I will only use those chairs if there is plenty of space available. It is not my place as a coach to DISPLACE AN ARCHER. Most often I never sit down because I don't want to take up space that belongs TO THE ARCHERS.

Good grief. Have we lost sight of who these tournaments are all about?

SWBuck, there is more and more abuse of these credentials each year. I'm not saying YOU are abusing them if you are in fact coaching your child, but many people are, and it's only going to get worse. So when a parent of the archer next to your child is standing in your way next year when you're trying to watch your kid shoot, and that parent takes your chair under the tent and heaps loads of stuff on it, and then their sister or cousin comes up - with a $20 pass - to sit beside them to watch, under the tent, what do you suppose should be done then? It's not a matter of if, but when.

Something's gotta give. Some standard will have to be applied and since we already have "coaching" certifications in place, it is the most sensible standard to use.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

We are straying from 'why were you not at Decatur' but as far as coaching at the line is concerned, I really don't get it. If you looked down the adult line, there were no coaches at the waiting line. Looking down the cadet line, moms, dads and coaches were camped at the waiting line. I shoot, I coach kids and I do not see what value you are adding by standing behind your archer. Ok, ok, before I get gigged, I might allow there is some value during the OR rounds, but it was a circus at the waiting line. Coach em up at practice. Teach them how to read wind and know their shot keys. I really don't like the new norm of young shooters needing someone behind them as they shoot. It strikes me as an archer being insufficiently trained or needy.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Like I've said before, every archer-coach relationship is unique, and every archer brings to the event a different level of experience. Coaches too. 

It's easy to say "coach 'em up before the event" and for many of us who run JOAD clubs, we try to do exactly that. But you also have to account for those who are less experienced, who may be at their first major event or first Nationals, and for those who frankly just get nervous or scared in big situations and need a friend or mentor as much as they need a coach. Most of the time, the things I'm talking to my archers about on the line at a big event have nothing to do with how to shoot. In fact, rarely do I ever talk about shooting at an event. Usually we're talking about other things, things that will help them calm down or get their mind off their score, or where they need to be and when they need to be there. There are a lot of things about a new venue that you cannot prepare your archer for beforehand, esp. if they are a bowman or cub or even a cadet. 

There's a reason that the older the kids get, the fewer "support staff" you see behind them on the line. Because they have either archery experience or life experience or both by the time they are young adults.

As far as coaching pass abuse goes, the worst example of it I saw was on the East end of the cadet line. It was pretty obvious that most of those ladies were not coaches, but rather concerned moms who just wanted to give some unsolicited advice to their kids from the shade of the archer's tents.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Well I'm sorry to say you probably won't like this reply either then.
> 
> Okay. Parents with no certifications buying passes to sit under the athlete's tents rubs me the wrong way. And asking certified coaches who have paid their fees and donated countless hours - to help not just their own kids, but other people's kids - having to buy a credential, rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> SWbuckmaster, aside from your own kids, who else do you coach?


I agree if you are a paid credential coach you probably shouldn't be asked to pay for a seat in a coaches tent the way it is set up now. 

I coach the compound archers in our club. I've made bow strings, time cams, adjust draws and tie in what ever. Our club can have between 20-60 archers a week shoot. I do everything for free. My wife ran the joad pin program for every archer that has come in and shot in our club for free. She has everyone of their scores for the last 8 years. I cant tell you how many archers has walked in that club in that time because we see as many as 2-10 new archers a week that stick around for a few weeks then for one reason or another go on to different things. 



limbwalker said:


> Have you ever used one of those tents as a competitor? Just curious.


No but ive used similar seats for nfaa shoots as a competitor. I dont have the time anymore with a traveling job to practice archery. I also would rather spend the time watching my kids compete. I can barley afford all the entrance fees, equipment and travel as it is without adding mine. Maybe when my kids are old and grown ill get back into shooting again. Right now something has to give $$$.





limbwalker said:


> Are you serious? As an ARCHER, I can answer that question for you...
> 
> Because those tents are FOR THE ARCHERS. Not the coaches, not the parents. And the archers should be free to use those tents and chairs as they see fit, to help them compete. If an archer wants to set up camp under those tents, so long as it's okay with the OTHER ARCHERS, I'm fine with it.
> 
> ...


don't go putting words in my mouth. I've never said those chairs aren't for archers. Its crazy though if your grip is about not having a seat and at the shoots ive been to the problem isn't about not having enough seats its those seats are being used as a table to put half eaten sandwiches, drinks, bows ect. Archers and everyone that uses those seats seem to want an empty chair on each side. The seats I saw empty never got used the entire day and I never saw one competing archer left standing in the sun. In fact the half eaten sandwiches were still sitting in the same spot after the shoot was over for the day. No reason for bows to be in the tent unless your working on them. If you built a half decent string the sun isn't going to affect your bow. I didn't see anyone abuse the seats like your saying in so cal. I cant comment on what happened in Alabama maybe they were getting abused. 




limbwalker said:


> SWBuck, there is more and more abuse of these credentials each year. I'm not saying YOU are abusing them if you are in fact coaching your child, but many people are, and it's only going to get worse. So when a parent of the archer next to your child is standing in your way next year when you're trying to watch your kid shoot, and that parent takes your chair under the tent and heaps loads of stuff on it, and then their sister or cousin comes up - with a $20 pass - to sit beside them to watch, under the tent, what do you suppose should be done then? It's not a matter of if, but when.
> 
> Something's gotta give. Some standard will have to be applied and since we already have "coaching" certifications in place, it is the most sensible standard to use.


I don't see a problem with having assigned bought and paid for seating its easy to do and fixes all your gripes. It keeps the shooters where their supposed to be and the rest in their spot. It helps traveling families coming across the country to not have to fight for a place to set up a tent. It works for concerts, movie theaters, ect. Why cant it work for archery. The money could be used to buy more tents and chairs ect is all Im saying.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Agree with what John just posted 100%. I disagree with requiring credentials to get a pass though. I've coached OAS and been my daughter's only constant coach over the last four years, I don't think I need a L1 or 2 cert. to validate that I'm her coach. One of the biggest reasons I am with her on the line is to guard against some of the unsportsmanlike conduct we've had to deal with over the last two years after moving up to cadet. If someone tries gamesmanship on the line at this time, where she is in her development, I will shut it down or handle it in a way that she can remain focused on her game.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

swbuckmaster said:


> I don't see a problem with having assigned bought and paid for seating its easy to do and fixes all your gripes. It keeps the shooters where their supposed to be and the rest in their spot. It helps traveling families coming across the country to not have to fight for a place to set up a tent. It works for concerts, movie theaters, ect. Why cant it work for archery. The money could be used to buy more tents and chairs ect is all Im saying.


Not a bad idea, but leave the tents behind the shooting line for the archers. Please. It's THEIR event. Not the coaches, not the parents, but the archers. We don't have tents and chairs for parents or non-certified coaches on the sidelines of high school football games, hockey, volleyball or basketball games. 

Guys there has to be a way to register "qualified" coaches (whether through the existing certification process, or by having the archer sign for their coach's credential). But the abuse that I'm seeing is only going to get worse now that some helicopter parents have figured it out.

I asked quite a few young archers in Decatur how they felt about having the tent city as far back from the archer's tents as it was. To the person, they all said they loved it.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Looking down on or treating spectators like their the plague isn't the way to grow archery imho.

I like the way vegas has seats for the archers. Then right behind the shooters are spectators chairs. Not fifty feet behind the archers. Love the stadium seating on the big floor. If usa archery wants to grow the sport they need to figure out a way to get the spectators involved and in a position so they can see the action. Making them fight for spots, calling them helicopter parrents or stuffing them as far away as possible in a tent is wrong imho. I don't see why usa archery can't build another row or two of tents all connected to the "shooters tent". Like I said the equipment could be paid for by charging for the seats. No one needs to fight for chairs because their assigned. Better yet I bet it would encourage early regestration. All that would need to happen is to have a week or two for partisipents to sign up and get targets assigned. Then open the spectators tents to registration. You could pick your seats behind the archer your supporting. 

In USA archery I see the medal matches and their isn't anyone watching. Empty chairs everywhere. Go to vegas and it's a different atmosphere all together. Why because they take care and involve the spectators. They don't call them helicopters ha ha


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## StudentOfTheBow (Jun 17, 2014)

I wasn't in Decatur because I used to live in Alabama. I know what it's like there in _July_. I'm not going back.

Move the tournament 200 miles north and I'll think about it.

I also didn't want to travel on 4th of July weekend.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

swbuckmaster said:


> Looking down on or treating spectators like their the plague isn't the way to grow archery imho.
> 
> I like the way vegas has seats for the archers. Then right behind the shooters are spectators chairs. Not fifty feet behind the archers. Love the stadium seating on the big floor. If usa archery wants to grow the sport they need to figure out a way to get the spectators involved and in a position so they can see the action. Making them fight for spots, calling them helicopter parrents or stuffing them as far away as possible in a tent is wrong imho. I don't see why usa archery can't build another row or two of tents all connected to the "shooters tent". Like I said the equipment could be paid for by charging for the seats. No one needs to fight for chairs because their assigned. Better yet I bet it would encourage early regestration. All that would need to happen is to have a week or two for partisipents to sign up and get targets assigned. Then open the spectators tents to registration. You could pick your seats behind the archer your supporting.
> 
> In USA archery I see the medal matches and their isn't anyone watching. Empty chairs everywhere. Go to vegas and it's a different atmosphere all together. Why because they take care and involve the spectators. They don't call them helicopters ha ha


Indoor vs. outdoor venues. Not comparable.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

StudentOfTheBow said:


> I wasn't in Decatur because I used to live in Alabama. I know what it's like there in _July_. I'm not going back.
> 
> Move the tournament 200 miles north and I'll think about it.
> 
> I also didn't want to travel on 4th of July weekend.


So you weren't in Hamilton 3 years ago then? It was over 100 degrees.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> So you weren't in Hamilton 3 years ago then? It was over 100 degrees.


which was also the case in Chicago, St Louis, Colorado springs and of course anyplace south of Hamilton

playing percentages, Hamilton is NORMALLY cooler than Decatur. Chicago is normally cooler than Decatur

I hear there is a major sports complex less than an Hour North of Indy that might be a possibility.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Indoor vs. outdoor venues. Not comparable.


Different sanctioning bodies too. And - your helicopter parents are just as bad in the NFAA as it is in USA/World Archery.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Anybody who complains about the weather has not looked at what our team is dealing with in Copenhagen. As an archer, you deal with it. As a helicopter parent, quit being a baby. The tournament is for the archer and they have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, heat, cold or any other weather that the Lord decides is best for us. End of story. If you complain, you don't belong at the event. I really did sugar coat this....

I don't think I have been to such a great field before in Decatur and hope they have it again there next year. As for those who feel slighted because they do not have a large event in their back yard, develop one. Most of these events were born out of the efforts of the host clubs who built up the event and now are being rewarded. Of course, when it comes to the Easton Foundations, they do get a jump start and so far, they have done a credible job. Maybe the next USAT event should be in Yankton? to cover that midwest area.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, you're making me look like a softie. 

Bet the anonymous haters still go after me though. LOL.



> and of course anyplace south of Hamilton


Actually Jim, three events ago, it was cooler in Decatur than it was in Hamilton. Strange I know, but that was the case. It was cooler in Houston than it was in Hamilton that year - point being, Rick is right. Deal with whatever comes our way - the way we did this year with 4 days of rain.

My vote would be the twin cities (for the weather, although they can still have horrendous T-storms there in the summer) or St. Louis for an interesting central location that is easy to fly in and out of. But I never saw what was wrong with Co Springs. 

One thing is for sure, Decatur is a world class facility. With a few tweaks, the field setup will be nearly perfect. I'd put that as one of the top 3 fields I've ever shot arrows on in my life.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Rick, you're making me look like a softie.
> 
> Bet the anonymous haters still go after me though. LOL.
> 
> ...


if they solve the backstop issue and the spectator seating issue you will be right. the 50M-70M should be on the main field. The 25-30 on what was the south (50M) field. the clout field for practice. Clout shooting east on the main field after practice on the OPD


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good suggestions. I hope those are making it to the tournament committee.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Rick McKinney said:


> Anybody who complains about the weather has not looked at what our team is dealing with in Copenhagen. As an archer, you deal with it. As a helicopter parent, quit being a baby. The tournament is for the archer and they have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, heat, cold or any other weather that the Lord decides is best for us. End of story. If you complain, you don't belong at the event. I really did sugar coat this....
> 
> I don't think I have been to such a great field before in Decatur and hope they have it again there next year. As for those who feel slighted because they do not have a large event in their back yard, develop one. Most of these events were born out of the efforts of the host clubs who built up the event and now are being rewarded. Of course, when it comes to the Easton Foundations, they do get a jump start and so far, they have done a credible job. Maybe the next USAT event should be in Yankton? to cover that midwest area.


Its hard to figure what Decatur's clubs did that we didn't do in Hamilton Rick. Yankton sucked btw according to shooters I know who went there. I'd be happy to have nationals at that area you were talking about in Indiana. more USA members live within a days' drive of Indiana than almost any other place in the country


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> more USA members live within a days' drive of Indiana than almost any other place in the country


? Have you seen the numbers at Nationals from CA and TX Jim? Maybe El Paso would be a good location?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Jim, I think the Decatur group offered lots of money to make it happen. Although, it is not just money that makes a final decision, but it does help. Plus, the quality of the field. When Nationals are run, it is normally the USAA that is responsible for most of the work. Darrell took a vacation week to be there and I sure hope he got paid for it. Jenni does a great job with the vendors and other "outside the shooting area" facilities. Obviously, Sheri works at the shooting facility and with one year under her belt with this facility, I am sure there will be changes made for next year if it is going to be there. 

Now, don't forget that there were plans for the Hamilton facility to be remodeled with similar grass features as the Decatur facility, plus they had plans to add electrify and wifi. So when that is finished, I would just about bet that Hamilton would be in the running again. Not sure how soon this is to happen since there are two major players in the Hamilton area that can make this happen. I hear that one is backing down on doing the major overhaul. So, only time will tell.

The Indy area is in it's infancy and may take a few years for fruition. Hopefully, this has lots of potential. However, after activities and location of the hotels are key anymore. 

As for Yankton, World Archery just awarded Bruce Cull a Silver Plaquette for his work in bringing the World Indoor Cup, World Indoor championships and World Junior Target Championships to Vegas and Yankton. A unique award for a unique person.


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