# Hunters Better Wake Up and Get Proactive About Saving Our Sport



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Your 100% right*

Writing your local elected officials is one thing everyone needs to do.

Money is what is keeping hunting going. States certianly understand money to the economy
DB


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## passthru11 (Mar 7, 2007)

Whats the different between baiting bears with jellie donut or setting up huge food plots and feeders to lure in deer. No difference to me?? People do this everywhere. I dont consider hunting in front of huge feeders hunting.but i guarantee may people will argue. In mass we cant bait or use decoys. So it all depends on the laws. I agree with the rest of your lines but it t's me off to see you complain about that when there are tons of guys shooting 140,150 class deer standing next to a timed feeder and call it hunting


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*We wonder why hunters are failing*



passthru11 said:


> Whats the different between baiting bears with jellie donut or setting up huge food plots and feeders to lure in deer. No difference to me?? People do this everywhere. I dont consider hunting in front of huge feeders hunting.but i guarantee may people will argue. In mass we cant bait or use decoys. So it all depends on the laws. I agree with the rest of your lines but it t's me off to see you complain about that when there are tons of guys shooting 140,150 class deer standing next to a timed feeder and call it hunting



Its 100% legal thats why
DB


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## SEOBowhntr (May 13, 2005)

passthru11 said:


> Whats the different between baiting bears with jellie donut or setting up huge food plots and feeders to lure in deer. No difference to me?? People do this everywhere.* I dont consider hunting in front of huge feeders hunting.but i guarantee may people will argue. * In mass we cant bait or use decoys. So it all depends on the laws. I agree with the rest of your lines but it t's me off to see you complain about that when there are tons of guys shooting 140,150 class deer standing next to a timed feeder and call it hunting.


Can't wait 'til those Texas Guys see this one. :happy1: :couch2:

Regardless of what HSUS does, hunting will be pretty safe for a long time coming, because stopping hunting would mean more $$$ for auto repairs to the insurance companies, and you can bet their lobbies are far stronger than HSUS ever will be, because they are a HUGE industry. Hundreds of thousands of deer-auto collisions each year cause billions of $$$$$ of damage, and stopping hunting would only make this worse.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

SEOBowhntr said:


> Can't wait 'til those Texas Guys see this one. :happy1: :couch2:
> 
> Regardless of what HSUS does, hunting will be pretty safe for a long time coming, because stopping hunting would mean more $$$ for auto repairs to the insurance companies, and you can bet their lobbies are far stronger than HSUS ever will be, because they are a HUGE industry. Hundreds of thousands of deer-auto collisions each year cause billions of $$$$$ of damage, and stopping hunting would only make this worse.


Oh. those guys will probably just let this one slide. I look at it kinda like bad calls by the refs, the ones that are loosing are the ones complaining... The ones that can't bait are the ones that complain about those that can.. It is hunter class envy..


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

BlacktailBuck

IMO -- One key to defeating the hsus is the understanding that these venues which they have written about are not being described accurately but rather are being deceptively described in a manner which suits their specific needs. As sportsmen we need to learn how to expose these deceptions and educate the public as to the truth and not allow the propaganda which our enemy spews to be the defining factor as to how these venues are judged.

Here is one example

Hsus statement # 1



> About Us
> 
> The Humane Society of the United States is the nation's largest and most effective animal protection
> 
> organization


Hsus statement # 2



> Endangered Trophies
> 
> In a loophole the size of Texas, endangered species raised on game farms, including the addax, the scimitar-horned oryx and the dama gazelle, can be shot for trophies in the United States. Decades of overhunting and habitat loss have driven these antelope species to the brink of extinction. In fact, the scimitar-horned oryx is believed to be completely extinct in the wild, but canned trophy hunters can pay a breeder to shoot and taxidermy the endangered species for the right price.


Tim4Trout's response ---

On this one we can literally allow the hsus to hang themselves with the simple adage that their statement clearly demonstrates that they are NOT an animal protection group and here is how. While certain game species may indeed be considered as extinct in the wild, the fact that these species currently exist on hunting preserves and in numbers which allow some to be taken by hunters is a testimonial which clearly shows hunters to be concerned about the preservation of these species. It is the desire of hunters and others who truly care about wildlife conservation to someday be able to return these species back into their natural habitat. Something which will not be possible if the game farms where these species currently continue to exist were to be shut down as the hsus apparently would like to see done.


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

SEOBowhntr said:


> Regardless of what HSUS does, hunting will be pretty safe for a long time coming,


Tell that to those who have lost hunting opportunities as a result of hsus actions.

The hsus doesn't have to shut down hunting to be effective.

All they have to do is shut down *your* specific hunting interests.

.. and I'm sure you don't mind if the hsus just bans bowhunting because of alleged 50 percent wounding rate claims and other alleged inhumanities, right ?


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## BlacktailBuck (Jan 28, 2007)

Dude,

This is cut and pasted from the HSUS website and you agree with it. Man, I only did the introduction. Those paragraphs with titles are cut and pasted right off of the antis website.

Wake up!



passthru11 said:


> Whats the different between baiting bears with jellie donut or setting up huge food plots and feeders to lure in deer. No difference to me?? People do this everywhere. I dont consider hunting in front of huge feeders hunting.but i guarantee may people will argue. In mass we cant bait or use decoys. So it all depends on the laws. I agree with the rest of your lines but it t's me off to see you complain about that when there are tons of guys shooting 140,150 class deer standing next to a timed feeder and call it hunting


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

passthru11 said:


> Whats the different between baiting bears with jellie donut or setting up huge food plots and feeders to lure in deer. No difference to me?? People do this everywhere. I dont consider hunting in front of huge feeders hunting.but i guarantee may people will argue. In mass we cant bait or use decoys. So it all depends on the laws. I agree with the rest of your lines but it t's me off to see you complain about that when there are tons of guys shooting 140,150 class deer standing next to a timed feeder and call it hunting


1) Massachusetts sportsmen lost their ability to control beaver and coyote populations through a referendum pushed in 1996 by the hsus using deceptive advertising. Sportsmen also lost the ability to hunt bears and bobcats with hounds via the very same referendum.

2) Baiting deer is legal in appx 24 states, not everywhere

3) In Massachusetts it is legal to "drive" deer.

4) Regardless of where one lives, hunting is not solely defined by how you choose to pursue game.

5) Other than the fact that food is being used as a lure, the baiting of deer and bear differs ( although the differences do not mean any demarcation between fair chase and other issues of controversy associated with baiting ) and if you believe that dumping out a pile of donuts for bears or corn for deer will guarantee success then you've been listening to too much hype IMO


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## MTNHunt (Oct 27, 2007)

Tim4Trout, I agree totally with your post. Here in Virginia this year there is a big fuss about using hounds to hunt dear. I sure that they are alot of hunters who disagree with this, however its legal in Virginia. And I do it. I also bow hunt, muzzle load and still hunt with a gun. The game dept. has put together a panel to discuss changes in the law. Hopefully this is not a downward spiral for this sport and all the anti-hunters jump aboard and try to mislead the public. The sad thing is that this whole issue has dog hunters fighting still hunters...which just adds more fuel for the anti-hunters. Just my $.02 cents.:sad:


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## BlacktailBuck (Jan 28, 2007)

MTNHunt said:


> Tim4Trout, I agree totally with your post. Here in Virginia this year there is a big fuss about using hounds to hunt dear. I sure that they are alot of hunters who disagree with this, however its legal in Virginia. And I do it. I also bow hunt, muzzle load and still hunt with a gun. The game dept. has put together a panel to discuss changes in the law. Hopefully this is not a downward spiral for this sport and all the anti-hunters jump aboard and try to mislead the public. The sad thing is that this whole issue has dog hunters fighting still hunters...which just adds more fuel for the anti-hunters. Just my $.02 cents.:sad:



The antis want in fighting to take place, and I think all hunters should ban together for all hunting activity that is currently legal. I wish we could get back hound hunting for bear and cougar in my state of OR, because we have seen a decline in deer and elk herds and that is exactly what the goal of HSUS was to do is decline the deer and elk herds.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

DUH! What's new. Hunters are incapable of battling this issue with anti hunters. They'll depend on sci, nra, or whoever to do their fighting for them. I'm trying to get the testimony from the California Condor lead issue, but from what I understand, there was very little response from hunters, which I find hard to believe, but I'm trying to get it anyway just to see, being its a public record and all.... but it is probable that there is very little testimony or challenges to some of the testimony by environmentalists.... for example...

*"The assertion that lead bullets and fragments in carcasses eaten by condors are a major source of lead poisoning for the endangered birds was confirmed in August by scientists at the University of California-Santa Cruz, who published a study online in the journal Environmental Science & Technology that examined and analyzed lead from rifle bullets and shotgun pellets.

The UC-Santa Cruz researchers used a "fingerprinting" technique based on the unique isotope ratios found in different sources of lead. The technique enabled them to match the lead in blood samples from condors to the lead in ammunition."*

Does anyone see anything wrong with this testimony? How many of you have used a muzzleloader and found a bullet or fragments left in the animal? Is there anything wrong with this "fingerprinting"? How did they fingerprint? Do you suppose that they'd be able to fingerprint my ammunition for example? Or Yours?

Well hunters didn't do anything there, with the elk on the offshore islands, the pig eradications, or any of it. 

We battle environmentalists at every turn and challenge everything that they say, but does anyone else? Nope... and from my perspective, I agree.. WAKE UP... but I don't expect anything... hunters are basically apathetic. They'll mount what they think are great massive response to fight losing bear hunting, and still lose, or mountain lion, and still lose, or anything for that matter, because they'll go for it once, and then win or lose, will sit or go back into hiding. The HSUS... you think they ever sleep? Do you think their lies are going to prove anything? Their in your kids classrooms bud... are there any hunting or conservation publications in the classroom? NO.... and who's to blame? HSUS?


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

MTNHunt said:


> Hopefully this is not a downward spiral for this sport and all the anti-hunters jump aboard and try to mislead the public.


Sadly they will do just that.

In Maine the law states ... No more than 4 dogs may be used at any one time to hunt for bear.

Yet in 2004 when the anti's attempted to push an anti hunting referendum they used bear poaching footage from Oregon which depicted as many as 7 dogs. They also tried to paint bear hounding as a situation where the lazy hunter simply listens to a radio collar transmission and drives right up to the tree where the dogs have the bear cornered for an easy shot ( as if bears treed by hounds choose will always trees near a road to climb )


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

rattus58 said:


> DUH! What's new. Hunters are incapable of battling this issue with anti hunters. They'll depend on sci, nra, or whoever to do their fighting for them.
> 
> 
> ... hunters are basically apathetic. They'll mount what they think are great massive response to fight losing bear hunting, and still lose, or mountain lion, and still lose, or anything for that matter, because they'll go for it once, and then win or lose, will sit or go back into hiding. The HSUS... you think they ever sleep? Do you think their lies are going to prove anything? Their in your kids classrooms bud... are there any hunting or conservation publications in the classroom? NO.... and who's to blame? HSUS?


Response to part 1 -- While it is great that hunters support these orgs who stand behind us, one truly succeeds in protecting hunting when one goes beyond simply donating to becoming an involved activist. The hunter who spends the time to learn about the hsus and how they operate incurs the benefit of being able to challenge hsus actions without always having to rely on third party involvement.


Response to part 2 -- You hit the proverbial nail on the head here. The hsus succeeds especially with voter referendums because they have years of continued experience in such issues behind them. Right now they are pushing to get referendums on the ballot to ban high fence in North Dakota and aerial shooting in Alaska. The problem is that their opposition will likely be hunters with little or no referendum battling experience as most who fought previous referendums ( bears in Maine and Alaska in 2004 and doves in Michigan in 2006 ) have gone back into obscurity. The primary reason why the hsus succeeded in banning dove hunting in Michigan was because the hunters opposing them had little or no experience in fighting such referendums.


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## aceoky (Mar 17, 2006)

> The primary reason why the hsus succeeded in banning dove hunting in Michigan was because the hunters opposing them had little or no experience in fighting such referendums


Respectfully it was much more than only that! What occurred in reality was too many hunters said " I don't dove hunt, it doesn't affect ME so why should I care".....sad but true. NOT realizing EVERY action of the Antis affects ALL hunters if not now, it will eventually!

We see the same mindset with hunters of various "groups", I don't 'bow hunt" so why would I protect it? Etc (actually *I* do bow hunt, simply an example) 
Just as some "elite bow groups" fight other fellow archery hunters (or future hunters) over the inclusion of crossbows into the PUBLIC archery seasons......division is short sighted and counter -productive! 

So long as "certain groups" ONLY care about what THEY enjoy and wish to do and either don't support other's choices OR worse yet FIGHT other fellow hunters, WE as a group can never be nearly as strong as we could be (and should be) IMO


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

aceoky said:


> Respectfully it was much more than only that! What occurred in reality was too many hunters said " I don't dove hunt, it doesn't affect ME so why should I care".....sad but true. NOT realizing EVERY action of the Antis affects ALL hunters if not now, it will eventually!
> 
> We see the same mindset with hunters of various "groups", I don't 'bow hunt" so why would I protect it? Etc (actually *I* do bow hunt, simply an example)
> Just as some "elite bow groups" fight other fellow archery hunters (or future hunters) over the inclusion of crossbows into the PUBLIC archery seasons......division is short sighted and counter -productive!
> ...


You are very correct in the pivotal role in which hunter apathy played in Michigan hunters losing dove hunting. My post was primarily referencing many of those hunters who did take up the fight and likely had little or no previous experience in dealing with such issues directly. 

While there is nothing wrong with focusing on our specific interests ( i.e a tuning a bow vs practicing duck calling ), it is indeed imperative that we stop petty fighting amongst one another and turning a blind eye to our fellow sportsmen and the issues they face.


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## Yellowfin (Mar 6, 2007)

Too many examples of why too many hunters never speak up and stand up to antis are summed up by this quote I read somewhere:

"A coward is a hero with two kids and a mortage."


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## JohnR (Apr 5, 2007)

*More food for the anti's*

Sometimes hunters are their own worst enemy...mainly based around laziness.

Here are some photos of what some hunters in my neighborhood do to promote their sport.

Last year, 2006, it was 5 deer, an elk, and a woman.ukey:


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