# Indoor season is coming



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

sooner then we would like .... but its time to prepare for it.
My question is about releases. 
Not an ordinary release, I've have tried at least all the popular brands and models and still looking for something extra ordinary, currently using (and always coming back to) cascades. 8's and 10's for outdoors I have four of them, windy or any other elements conditions set all with different timing....relax style, you don't have a hair motion with these....
I am not really interested for hinge - BT neither any wrist buckle style (I know what they doing and I don't feel the confidence going back that way), but more looking to some short neck releases. Short = meaning from handle to half moon, and with open jaw....
In example here is a simple difference showing 20 millimeter difference in length, about 3/4" in inches:









I like to hold about 22-24 lbs, the release execution must have no motion at all.....don't tell me BT have no motion, we will argue about that until I prove the opposite with a single sentence...
I know for SCAT, regret selling it a while ago, that was kind of fun release, then I still have one in parts (can't recall the name anymore) what reacted to extra pull weight, but both handle/necks were just huge in any means,
so what else is on the table, unless S.H. resurrects the cascades?


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shooting-gear/releases-accessories.html


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't understand what question you are posing. It sounds as though you have ruled out virtually all main stream releases and are somewhere in the five stages of mourning at the passing of cascade releases. 

If you want a release with no motion at all, I'm not sure there is much to chooses save a handful of oddball releases. What's wrong with _some _motion in a release?


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

dua lam pa said:


> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/shooting-gear/releases-accessories.html


c'mon now, I would expect some more value if answering


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Praeger said:


> ...It sounds as though you have ruled out virtually all main stream releases.... What's wrong with _some _motion in a release?


you spend some good 3 digit in US$'s trying out tons of releases and you have a good chance figuring out what makes the differences....
my question is not about main stream or what is working best for you BT or not


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lost me....The magic bow does not exist, neither does the magic release aid. I make my bow shoot. I make my release aid work.
My Stan Deuce hinge, just hang on and it will fire and yet enough time to let it down. My ST360 thumb, set so heavy you think it's too hard to fire, but no creep, no movement and the arrow is gone without thought.

I think I know how you feel about this. Find one that is fully adjustable and stick with it. Heck, got use to my wife somewhere along the 38 years we've been hitched. 

If you didn't live across the border I'd send you a couple of mine to try....


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

bigHUN said:


> you spend some good 3 digit in US$'s trying out tons of releases and you have a good chance figuring out what makes the differences....
> my question is not about main stream or what is working best for you BT or not


I think we've all been there, in search of the glass slipper. What works best for me? I use back tension with a hinge release but also practice using back tension with a thumb release. For me, one helps the execution of the other and provides some wider margins under windy or extreme shot angles. I currently shoot the HT Pro and Carter Just Cuz.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there is no magic release. everyone of them requires you to do something to get the arrow out of the bow. the more effort you put into learning and the better you learn what that "something" is, the better you'll shoot. there are no short cuts or easy ways out, it takes dedicated and concentrated applied effort, to be good at it and then consistent maintenance, to remain good at it. 
you cannot "buy your way out" either..... any thing you buy will only work as good as you "work it"....it's all on you and the effort you put into it........good luck.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I don't think he's looking for a magic release. It sounds like he's looking for a release with the least amount of movement possible to fire, yet still solid enough to let down if necessary. It's no wonder so many get frustrated with posting here when the same two or three guys jump on a soap box every time a question is asked.

I was looking for the same thing last year and decided the two things that were the most important were comfort at anchor, and low to zero perceivable travel. I know fifty people will jump on here and say, "that's not what you want", but I am not new at this. Like OP said, I have also tried almost every style of release. I punch buttons when I start to fatigue, I hate the hand position of most hinges unless set really cold and then I still have accidental fires, or firing on let down. I like using a clicker, but it can also create some punching issues and they don't have easily adjustable travel that feels consistent. (yes I know about changeable moons and the new Carter) I wanted one that I could micro adjust on the fly to get the travel as close to zero as possible with a comfortable hand position, and no chance of firing until I'm settled in and ready to execute the shot. I decided to try a safety hinge with micro adjust, and found what I was looking for. It took some getting used to as they all do, but I have found I like it a lot. I can get my hand position how I like it and have minimal travel to fire the release. This makes a huge difference for me outdoors.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

the magic is in good form and practice,buy a real hinge and just pull,yes less letoff helps,longer ata,brace height and whatever all help, but its still good form and much practice.but to me the best archery is now hunting with a bow all the rest is just practice.good luck,Pete53


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> I don't think he's looking for a magic release. It sounds like he's looking for a release with the least amount of movement possible to fire, yet still solid enough to let down if necessary. It's no wonder so many get frustrated with posting here when the same two or three guys jump on a soap box every time a question is asked.
> 
> I was looking for the same thing last year and decided the two things that were the most important were comfort at anchor, and low to zero perceivable travel. I know fifty people will jump on here and say, "that's not what you want", but I am not new at this. Like OP said, I have also tried almost every style of release. I punch buttons when I start to fatigue, I hate the hand position of most hinges unless set really cold and then I still have accidental fires, or firing on let down. I like using a clicker, but it can also create some punching issues and they don't have easily adjustable travel that feels consistent. (yes I know about changeable moons and the new Carter) I wanted one that I could micro adjust on the fly to get the travel as close to zero as possible with a comfortable hand position, and no chance of firing until I'm settled in and ready to execute the shot. I decided to try a safety hinge with micro adjust, and found what I was looking for. It took some getting used to as they all do, but I have found I like it a lot. I can get my hand position how I like it and have minimal travel to fire the release. This makes a huge difference for me outdoors.


Hey, read again what bigHUN said, see his release. He's shot it forever. It's no longer made. The transition to another release will not be magical. You have to "learn" a release in one manner or another before you can get comfortable, make it work for you. More, each release may need the draw length of the bow changed or d-loop shortened or lengthened and/or the peep relocated. The form you use may need a slight adjustment. All this can weigh heavily upon a person.
I went through all this. I've read ever books, every article I could get my hands on and when all said and done, it was me, not the release.

No movement, no perceivable travel? I don't know of hinge or thumb that can't be set so it just thinking that makes it fire. You or anyone wants some help, contact Padgett. He's got a library on setting a hinge and achieving a "firing engine."

More than anything, I use my hinges for practice...makes be better with my ST360s.
The Stan Deuce, 2 finger hinge; allen wrench for super fine adjustment, no fiddling with a moon. On target, aiming, relax and the arrow is gone. First hinge I used in competition, first time, 299.....

The Stan Blackjack, 3 finger hinge; allen wrench for super fine adjustment, no fiddling with a moon. Cross Safety pin to test fire until perfect for you. A bit small for my hand, but large version is available.

The Blue Stan 3 finger hinge; allen wrench for super fine adjustment, no fiddling with a moon. First hinge I used to drill a X from 30 yards and this joker turned the lights off on me for the bet. I win.

The blue ST360 3 finger, set so heavy that when test fired it feels like it won't go off, but like nothing when it does fire. Head rotates 360 degrees. First release I used to shoot 25 with 3 Xs from 20 yards with my eyes closed. That dang field14 got me doing this, eyes closed. Sure does tell if your bow is "fit" and you're doing something right. I've done it with witnesses... I play harder than most people practice.

The red ST360 4 finger, set lighter. Used for back up.

About $620.00. Look in the classifieds and you can pick one up cheaper. People needed some coins. I got the Deuce at his asking price, $40. Same with the Blackjack, brand new, still in package, $50. The ST360 4 finger, brand new, still in package, $50. The 3 finger hinge I got from Doug Springer, new to my door, $141.00. Don't know Doug? Call Stanislawski and find out. I did. He'll give a lesson over the phone.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

bigHUN said:


> c'mon now, I would expect some more value if answering


Sorry big fellow , releases are like women , ya gots to pick your own , no matter what its gonna cost ya and no matter what ya take home its gonna make ya cuss.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Just get a hinge and call it a day. Looking for a short neck one...the Zenith Comfort 3D is fairly short

set it cold til you get used to it.

play with different styles of tripping the sear (Finger pointing, wrist rotation, bure BT)....for the different timing you want. Though I'd like you to explaine why you would want different timing from shot to shot...seems that would jack with consistency.

Searching for "extra ordinary"...you'll spend a lot of money to achieve this...in addition to much frustration


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> Hey, read again what bigHUN said, see his release. He's shot it forever. It's no longer made. The transition to another release will not be magical. You have to "learn" a release in one manner or another before you can get comfortable, make it work for you. More, each release may need the draw length of the bow changed or d-loop shortened or lengthened and/or the peep relocated. The form you use may need a slight adjustment. All this can weigh heavily upon a person.
> I went through all this. I've read ever books, every article I could get my hands on and when all said and done, it was me, not the release.
> 
> No movement, no perceivable travel? *I don't know of hinge or thumb that can't be set so it just thinking that makes it fire*


As I said, "with a comfortable hand position" for me. He said he wanted it short yes, but also adjustable travel. I offered what simply worked for me as a possible suggestion for minimal travel that can be easily set and fine tuned "heavier". It also can be done with the same hand position. Many guys, myself included, dont like the contorted feeling with most hinges set really hot, but we like them hot. A rotating head can fix that. I believe everyone at this (suggested) level knows the fundamentals of proper release and is narrowing down their style of preference.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Spot Hogg has a couple with very similar geometry. I don't know anything else about them.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I like a carter jus cuz it is a great fit for my hand I just put my thumb on trigger and a good strong push pull arrow goes in x . 

With me the magic is good form solid basics and a lot of practice makes for good shooting .


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

like I said....any release you get, only works as good as you "work it'. if you set it hot, you have to work it gently on a let down......but it's still all in how you "work it'. it's easier to learn to work it right, then the let down is no problem.
what the heck.....am I making too much sense ??..... are you guys really having a that hard of a time understanding this ??.


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## bowtechky (Jan 30, 2013)

You should look at the Carter Too Simple, short neck, very adjustable, no travel and smooth. I use to shoot cascades, like the Too Simple better.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

swapping releases between building just a muscle strength (after a longer period away) or a practice (mental?) or scoring Field or scoring FITA or scoring indoors....
if these releases have not the 100% same anatomy (I didn't sad dimensions) most we know how much can alter the routine (and the routine is way beyond and above just talking about form) ...
I am very surprised of seeing so big differences between new or old popular models, not really want to talk about the release geometry or functionality but a fit to body style....
starting from the neck length and width what is between the index and middle finger....you just file off a 1/8 from the material and you got totally different DL/feel for hold/form/timing/torque...
I've been trying tons of releases at my free time between tournaments, for a day or two what again from my perspective means shooting several hundred arrows and not just like a dozen or two...withing a good week shooting played with maybe 5-6 releases in average, so I can talk about what motions you have to make to execute the shot (good or bad this is just really relevant at this point).
This how I am always back to relax for a surprise shot execution....most people told me they just can not train the brain for that....
any other brand may have something similar to cascades? wow, its been almost ten years how its got discontinued and no brands seeing a business case to put up "something like that" on the table?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Way too much attention being paid to something as simple as pushing a button 1/16" of an inch. Just pick something that's comfortable in your hand, and learn to use it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN, I don't know the guy or his name, but he makes adaptors for releases, add-on grip contours if you will. I know only one person that has one and that is Old Man Archer in here. If on the Elite forum you might catch him there as he is a Elite shooter, same name. I believe the machinist requires both releases, one of your cascades and the new release you choose. And even then it's a gamble.

My releases above. I have to change my draw length a bit for one. Another, I need the peep moved. I can do a bit of tweaking and get two releases, the Deuce and ST360 to match up. In fact, that is what I have right now. I use the ST360 mainly and the Deuce for "easier" shot on a 3D course. I R trying to switch fully to a hinge, but can't seem to put the dang ST360 away and forget it. And this is no different than what you're experiencing, transition.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Leave the 360 in a drawer at the house....take only the BT with you to shoot...it's the only way...lol.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

*why would some one force it*

BT....Hinge....BT.....Hinge
all the time talking the same?
You folks really think forcing to learn a BT technic over any other release will make you shoot so superior?
if you would spend that much time and effort with that release what you already have now in your pocket....believe me the results would pay off way earlier...
different story if you feel bored....like myself.....(but again I've tried BT-H and I didn't saw it so sophisticated over other forms)..
think twice.....or go and spend some time to realize, but write your hours spent on the subject.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Back Tension is a process. Any release can be fired with back tension. However, I don't feel back tension can be truly learned with any release other than a hinge release. 

Hinge release is a hinge that is fired with back tension, but "cheated" probably as much as fired with back tension.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Lots of thumb triggers can be fired with zero perceptible movement.
Everyone is different, but are you so different that none of the releases being shot in pro divisions will work with you?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

well put Mahly.....
another example of the fact, that there re certain elements and rules to archery that just simply need to be adhered to, regardless of "what works best for you". as with everything. this sport is a science that has been studied and developed to be the most universal way to achieve good shooting for the largest majority of shooters. our brains all work the same and when we deviate from what is "known and established" to teach it to work right, we create other problems. 
I have been shooting long enough, that I have seen, that when people deviate from what is known as "the right way", because they think "that way doesn't work for them", it usually works "their way" for a while, but eventually comes back to haunt them in some other area of their shooting and they are right back where they started....but with a new and sometime even more complicated problem.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

many years coming back to cascades only for reason there is 100% no motion.....it fires by relaxing the thumb finger pressure....
so you pull the draw - aim - lock - and start relaxing....
I am looking for an other similar function release only because I got bored of the shape or the timing or the color having these for too long time....if I would change to any other style release a simple swap and shoot is no good, need to reset the bow specs agrasivelly....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know of a release trigger release.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Stan Element- resistance activated release set up so that when you release the thumb safety it fires would be the only thing I can think of that would mimic the Cascade.


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## soonerboy (Sep 6, 2004)

Buhler(release makers), Buhler(release makers). Are you listening? Release trigger release.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

soonerboy said:


> Buhler(release makers), Buhler(release makers). Are you listening? Release trigger release.


So give a link .... Searched too long and couldn't find.....


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Buttons and hinges fire exactly how you want IF you shoot them that way- relax the hand and forearm, hand stretches, arrows go in the middle....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

N7709K said:


> Buttons and hinges fire exactly how you want IF you shoot them that way- relax the hand and forearm, hand stretches, arrows go in the middle....


Yes, they will. My Deuce is something of this, hand relaxes, arrow gone. The ST360s and the newer versions come with two springs, light and heavy. Set so the slightest relax, gone arrow.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Stan Element- resistance activated release set up so that when you release the thumb safety it fires would be the only thing I can think of that would mimic the Cascade.


how long the hook is sticking out forward from your fingers? Have a feel looking at the pictures at least an inch my bow DL may be shorter for this reason?


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