# What does this mean?



## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Well i did some more tuning. Quarter turn in on the plunger and one revolution on the tension. Bareshafts left but bow sights fine and walks back fine. Guess I will call that good.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Using the plunger to correct spine issues is not a good idea. Use the tiller bolts on the riser to adjust the limb poundage. 

Plunger tension is for grouping.

Chris


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Unfortunately, my tiller bolts are all the way out. I need to get some stiffer arrows soon. Especially if I up the poundage. I could ditch some point weight I suppose, but much higher and that wont matter either.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

deepsprayj said:


> Unfortunately, my tiller bolts are all the way out. I need to get some stiffer arrows soon. Especially if I up the poundage. I could ditch some point weight I suppose, but much higher and that wont matter either.


If you are a right handed shooter, and the bare shafts are impacting left of the fletched arrows. Then the arrows are stiff and you need to go in on your tiller bolts into the riser. Going out lowers poundage, going in raises poundage. 

Also bareshafts a foot or more left of fletched will be too stiff to really tune, but going in on the tiller bolts will help. I find you can generally make 6 inches work weak or stiff, but not much more on any given riser/ limb combo. 


Chris


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Its hard to explain. The arrows act weak but i can get them acting stiff if i push the arrow out a bit more and increase plunger tension


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

then all you are doing is pushing the arrow more and more left the further you shoot if you are using the plunger that way. 


Go back to basics. 

1.Put a stiff plunger in so it doesnt move at all. 

2. set arrow centershot directly in line with string.

3. Line the string and sight and arrow up. 

4.Shoot bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards minimum. 

5. Adjust tiller bolts until bareshaft is with fletched. (you cant get this to happen, arrows will not work for this current limb). 

when bareshafts and fletched group together

Then replace plunger with normal working plunger. 

adjust center shot of arrow to just outside of string. 

Adjust plunger until arrows hit in center of target. 

do walkback tune from 50 yards to 5 yards. adjust centershot for arrows to hit centered at all distances. ( this is assuming your sight is straight up and down). 

done.

Any other way is not a tune for multiple distances or forgiveness/ grouping. 


Chris


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## Tooly (Mar 20, 2013)

Marked. Tuning help. Thanks


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## SAVILO (Jan 14, 2010)

Marked for tuning when my SF Forged + comes in


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i should clarify that stiff plunger is (remove the spring in the plunger and use a match stick in its place. put plunger back together so the button on it does not move at all). 

then when i say normal working plunger, that means undo the plunger, remove the match stick and put spring back in. Usually plungers come with hard, medium and light spring. Put in medium spring first and then put plunger back together. the plunger center shot will not have moved as that is a different metal piece on the plunger and not moved to remove springs. 

You will be using same plunger for both. 


Chris


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## liquidmojo (Dec 1, 2012)

so after following steps 1-3 where should the arrows impact on the target? Left/middle/right of the aiming spot?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Listen to Chris. He's giving you $100's worth of advice here.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

liquidmojo said:


> so after following steps 1-3 where should the arrows impact on the target? Left/middle/right of the aiming spot?



doesnt matter, as long as long as the bare shafts and fletched group together. They can be left, center of target, right, etc. The important part is they land in the same group. 

The plunger with spring setting will put the arrows in the center where they belong. 



Chris


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

I have to say that's probably the best summery of a tuning method _that I've seen_ posted in the forum.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Go back to basics. 

1.Put a stiff plunger in so *button* doesnt move at all. 

2. set arrow centershot directly in line with string.

3. Line the string and sight and arrow up. 

4.Shoot bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards *minimum*. 

5. Adjust *tiller bolts* on bow until bareshafts and fletched land in same group. (if you cant get this to happen, arrows will not work for this current limb poundage). 

6. when bareshafts and fletched group together anywhere ( left, right center of target etc) Then replace plunger with normal working plunger. 

7. adjust centershot of arrow to just outside of string. 

8. Adjust plunger *tension* until arrows hit in center of target. 

9. walkback tune from 50 yards to 5 yards. (*FIFTY YARDS TO 5 YARDS*) no more, no LESS.

10. adjust *CENTERSHOT* for arrows to hit centered at all distances. ( this is assuming your sight is straight up and down). 

done.

Any other way is not a tune for multiple distances or forgiveness/ grouping. this method is commonly found on the internet. It works and is the way. And this is assuming you have already set the correct nocking point with bareshaft and fletched and set brace height. 


revised for clearer understanding

Chris


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## liquidmojo (Dec 1, 2012)

Ok cool. Thanks Chris.


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Alright I am going to try from scratch. That is a nice step by step method. Thanks


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## deepsprayj (Nov 4, 2011)

Wow was I wrong. Ok bareshafts hit spot on with fletched at 20 yds using the above method at my current tiller settings producing 37.91lbs on the fingers. My previous tune had the arrow just left of the string and the sight just left as well. I adjusted plunger tension to get my arrows impacting center of my aperature. Before plunger adjustment the aperature must be to the right of the string to get impacts in line with the center of the aperature. The only additional tuning I needed was a bit of plunger tension adjustment. The problem I saw was due to bareshaft tuning at the wrong step in my tuning process. There was actually no problem at all. I read the bareshafts wrong because I tried them with a mushy plunger. Unfortunately, I have to fiddle it back to where it was, but it is a lesson learned and worth the confidence boost of knowing my gear is tuned as best as it is going to get. Now I have nobody to blame but the dummy behind the string. My anchor is abysmally inconsistent as well as my grip pressure and draw length as the clicker gives me fits. Thanks again Chris!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Arrow directly in line with string. Is this only if you use sights?


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> Go back to basics.
> 
> 1.Put a stiff plunger in so *button* doesnt move at all.
> 
> ...


When I go through this process, at step 5 my bare shafts and fletched group together at about 9 o'clock white on a 40cm target at 18m. When I adjust the button to put the fletched in the yellow my bare shafts are at about 3 o'clock white, way weak. Is this a normal part of the process where I'll need to go back and forth until a get a set-up that groups together in the yellow or do I have something else going on? The only thing that's a little different is that Border recommends keeping centershot lined up with the string.

Paul


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Marked. I'd like to revisit my tuning again, and give Chris's method a try. And compare results with Kim's. Thank you.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Black46 said:


> When I go through this process, at step 5 my bare shafts and fletched group together at about 9 o'clock white on a 40cm target at 18m. When I adjust the button to put the fletched in the yellow my bare shafts are at about 3 o'clock white, way weak. Is this a normal part of the process where I'll need to go back and forth until a get a set-up that groups together in the yellow or do I have something else going on? The only thing that's a little different is that Border recommends keeping centershot lined up with the string.
> 
> Paul


This tells me that your plunger spring is too weak. You should have 3 springs. Hard, medium and light. Put in the next heavier spring and see what you get. Also you can put arrow back to center of string, especially if you are shooting X10 arrows. Or if that is what Border recommends. 


Chris


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

Chris, do you ever consider bare shaft arrow angle in the target? I've read a bunch of stuff including Gary Y.'s tuning method that considers bare shaft arrow angle as the first step. Just wondering your take .

Bob


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

chrstphr said:


> Go back to basics.
> 
> 1.Put a stiff plunger in so *button* doesnt move at all.
> 
> ...


I cut and paste this into a document on a laptop and brought this to the range immediately with my rig: I just spent 4 hours (it's 2:30pm here in NZ) doing this, and at the end of it I ventured to sight in (at least 15 arrows per 30/50/70/90m) and I'd say it works. I've reduced my poundage to around 34.8# against 700 spined X10's (28" LOP) and my sight marks are down, but rather than struggle against the higher poundage I now have better form.

The scary thing was I had a single end of 5 arrows at 90m where all were within the red. I've never gotten anything like that before (usually at least blue). Wind speed was head on, 20 to 28km/h (yeah, it was windy). So far it's promising! Previously I had nearly ZERO room to move for the hard spring plunger, now I have enough to adjust both ways because unlike the previous time -- this time I tiller bolted WITH the spine, and not use the spring tension for spine stiffness.

Will confirm tomorrow morning when the winds have died down a lot more. So far very promising.

Will confirm


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> This tells me that your plunger spring is too weak. You should have 3 springs. Hard, medium and light. Put in the next heavier spring and see what you get. Also you can put arrow back to center of string, especially if you are shooting X10 arrows. Or if that is what Border recommends.
> 
> 
> Chris


Thanks, I will try it. For reference, I'm using a Shibuya plunger with the medium spring. It was adjusted close to the lightest setting to get the fletched arrows in the center. Arrows are X7 1614


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

BobCo19-65 said:


> Chris, do you ever consider bare shaft arrow angle in the target? I've read a bunch of stuff including Gary Y.'s tuning method that considers bare shaft arrow angle as the first step. Just wondering your take .
> 
> Bob


Yes, i do. normally it shows me the centershot adjustment is off it bare is not straight in the target. Or if you get bare shafts straight and fletched at angle. Centershot is issue and not correct. But this can also happen with a poor release, so unless you are an intermediate to advanced archer, i would focus on the larger tune. 


Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Black46 said:


> Thanks, I will try it. For reference, I'm using a Shibuya plunger with the medium spring. It was adjusted close to the lightest setting to get the fletched arrows in the center. Arrows are X7 1614


I am thinking that the bareshafts are having clearance issue with the weak spring and kicking the bareshaft. While the fletched are able to correct. If stiffest plunger had bare and fletched together. Slightly weakening the plunger setting should allow group to move over. Too weak and the arrows will separate. 


Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

also once you finish with stiff plunger setting and go to a spring in the plunger, If you are shooting parallel shaft, put arrow just outside of string. If you are shooting a barrel shaft, leave arrow centered on string. 


Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> Arrow directly in line with string. Is this only if you use sights?


No, you want the arrow pointing directly center of the string if the plunger is stiff. This tells you how the bow is throwing the arrow in a straight line out of the bow ( supposedly). 

If you don't have a centershot to begin with, you can't tell how the bow is launching the arrow on that axis. Without the centershot dead on, you leave too many bow shot variables.

Chris


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

When I put the sight pin aligned with the string I cant see it any more :confused3:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Chris what I like most about your method is that it illustrates really well the critical relationship between bow weight and spine. All those other alignment things are just a smoke screen that obscures the weight to arrow balance requirement. 

I know you were bottom-lining the tuning method to keep it simple however I would amend this statement below by adding the arrow adjustments that can be made
*" (if you cant get this to happen, arrows will not work for this current limb poundage)."*

- For stiff arrows you can add more point weight (granted with glue in points on carbon shafts this is a PITA but it can rescue arrows that would otherwise be too stiff)
- For weak arrows if you have the room you can trim some off the shaft to make them shorter and stiffer or reduce point weight.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

jg9020 said:


> When I put the sight pin aligned with the string I cant see it any more :confused3:


For this, i have no answer. Perhaps this is a form issue? Or a bow setup issue. 


Is the bow setup and on plane? Brace height good, no limb lean? 


Chris


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> I am thinking that the bareshafts are having clearance issue with the weak spring and kicking the bareshaft. While the fletched are able to correct. If stiffest plunger had bare and fletched together. Slightly weakening the plunger setting should allow group to move over. Too weak and the arrows will separate.
> 
> 
> Chris


The issues was that the 1614s were waaaay weak. I've no idea why with the stiff plunger the bares a fletched grouped together, but it explains why they showed weak when I adjusted the plunger.

I tried 1714s and here's with stiff plunger (aiming at the white center at the right)








Still show slightly weak. Here is with the plunger adjusted (aiming at the yellow)








I still have some tweaking to do, but this makes me think I'm on the right track. Thanks Chris!

Paul

PS-Sorry, the photos are sideways, but I can't figure out how to fix them


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Black46 said:


> The issues was that the 1614s were waaaay weak. I've no idea why with the stiff plunger the bares a fletched grouped together, but it explains why they showed weak when I adjusted the plunger.
> 
> I tried 1714s and here's with stiff plunger (aiming at the white center at the right)
> 
> ...


well. if it helps any, your two groupings are spot on, so your release is great. And your nocking point is correct.


Chris


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

jg9020 said:


> When I put the sight pin aligned with the string I cant see it any more :confused3:


Are you closing one eye?


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

Everything is set up fine. I am left eye dominate shooting right handed, so I have to close one eye. I am also using a Titian sight appreture, it's not like I can't see it but its covering half of it.


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## Dewboy (Apr 19, 2005)

tagged for reference! Thanks Chris.


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

jg9020 said:


> When I put the sight pin aligned with the string I cant see it any more :confused3:


Hmm...Anyone know why this is happening?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jg9020 said:


> Hmm...Anyone know why this is happening?


Is this a new thing (brought on by a different tuning setup - new bow, new arrows, new draw weight/or new limbs, etc)?

Just guesses without being able to eyeball your alignment. Might be as simple as your geometric 'mix' (face shape, eye spacing, draw length, anchor point, etc) is putting your line of sight too much behind the string - 'when combined' with your current tune. Experiment with changing your anchor location on your jaw; or your head angle; or change the bow's tune a bit, requiring the sight hoop to be pushed away from the bow a bit more (make the arrows shoot a bit stiffer) ... any of those alterations can put the sight pin more outside the string visually.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

jg9020,

Here is a view of a conventional 'well tuned' sight picture (at least the part about the sight hoop being a smidge outside the string visually) ... if your sight hoop is obscured by the string, I would suggest you're compensating for a weak tune - something that a walkback test should confirm.


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

Thank you, this makes much more sense to me. This is how I originally had it.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Go back to basics. 

1.Put a stiff plunger in so *button* doesnt move at all. 

2. set arrow centershot directly in line with string.

3. Line the string and sight and arrow up. 

4.Shoot bareshaft and fletched at 20 yards *minimum*. 

5. Adjust *tiller bolts* on bow until bareshafts and fletched land in same group. (if you cant get this to happen, arrows will not work for this current limb poundage). 

6. when bareshafts and fletched group together anywhere ( left, right center of target etc) Then replace plunger with normal working plunger. 

7. adjust centershot of arrow to just outside of string. Move sight over arrow ( if X10 or barrel shaft, leave arrow centered and sight centered). 

8. Adjust plunger *tension* until arrows hit in center of target. 

9. walkback tune from 50 yards to 5 yards. (*FIFTY YARDS TO 5 YARDS*) no more, no LESS.

10. adjust *CENTERSHOT* for arrows to hit centered at all distances. ( this is assuming your sight is straight up and down). 

done.

Any other way is not a tune for multiple distances or forgiveness/ grouping. this method is commonly found on the internet. It works and is the way. And this is assuming you have already set the correct nocking point with bareshaft and fletched and set brace height. 


revised to add directions for sight.


Chris


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