# Dissapointing



## TNMAN

Daniel Boone said:


> Once again the turnout for state field event was down. 30 archers here in Oklahoma.
> 
> 
> *Requiring a state membership and NFAA membership makes this expensive for average archer*.
> 
> Hope the 900 Target State shoot gets more turnout.


DB, pretty sure that's up to the state association now. The latest NFAA rules now allow non-members to shoot, but not compete at the two sanctioned shoots. Good idea to let folks get a little taste before making them buy a whole side, imho.


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## TNMAN

Daniel Boone said:


> Once again the turnout for state field event was down. 30 archers here in Oklahoma.
> 
> 
> Requiring a state membership and NFAA membership makes this expensive for average archer.
> 
> Hope the 900 Target State shoot gets more turnout.


Sorry you had to miss shooting. Know from earlier posts that you wanted to shoot some field this year---before getting so sick.


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## treeman65

i wish field shoots were bigger than asa and ibo I just started shooting field last year and if i have a choice on any give weekend wether to shoot field or foam then field i will shoot.


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## Daniel Boone

TNMAN said:


> Sorry you had to miss shooting. Know from earlier posts that you wanted to shoot some field this year---before getting so sick.


I was geared up on the Ok Archery bow for field and indoor this year, health just didnt allow it. Plan to shoot some field and 900 round next year.
Just enjoy trying and shooting different venues. Keeps archery interesting.

Got my Ok Archery DST 36 to have set up for 3d so no promblems shooting both venues.

Are indoor state shoot seems to have lower turnout because of NFAA membership as well. 

Membership over all is dropping in Oklahoma State Archery assc. But feel the economy has an effect on numbers as well.
DB


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## ThunderEagle

Kind of brings up the question, is there any grassroots efforts fans of Field Archery can do to help make it more popular?

I just did my first one last year, and I'll tell ya, I love it. Wasn't free for Great Lakes Sectionals, or for the Ohio State Field shoots, but there is a 14 target course setup at a local State Park. I try to shoot it a couple of times a week or more. I'm not great at it, but I like it.


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## treeman65

ThunderEagle said:


> Kind of brings up the question, is there any grassroots efforts fans of Field Archery can do to help make it more popular?
> 
> I just did my first one last year, and I'll tell ya, I love it. Wasn't free for Great Lakes Sectionals, or for the Ohio State Field shoots, but there is a 14 target course setup at a local State Park. I try to shoot it a couple of times a week or more. I'm not great at it, but I like it.


i think clubs should have more local field shoot even if it takes animal rounds to get some of the 3ders interested 2 local clubs near me the one only runs a field league during the week and nothing but 3d on weekends the other club mixes it between 3d and field but seem so far between the field shoots


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## treeman65

or even have a couple weekends were it is 15 field targets and 15 3d targets but combine all 30 for a score


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## ThunderEagle

I'm not even going to 3D shoots this year. In a lot of ways I don't want the hassle of it for only 30 shots.


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## bernies boy

Guess it could be the economy that is hurting shoots. Folks are having a hard time paying for gas and other expenses; so they stay closer to home. I also fly radio controlled planes and our fly-ins have gone from standing room only to tiny crowds. Field shoots have been getting treated like a redheaded stepson every since 3-D came along.


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## treeman65

ThunderEagle said:


> I'm not even going to 3D shoots this year. In a lot of ways I don't want the hassle of it for only 30 shots.[/QUOTE
> yes shoot just 20 or 30 arrows is boringggggggggggggggg


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## rock monkey

where are all these people that say 'wow, that looks like fun' or 'damn, first time and it was AWESOME!!' ?

is it because it's a LOT of arrows?
is it because there's no excuses except the archer?
is it because of the known distance/big round target lack of challenge?

local clubs dont enforce membership requirements for the weekend shoots. that only happens for sanctioned events that are state org or higher. i cant walk up to a large 3D event and enter into the AMFS equivalent class without joining. if your perception is that the only shoots worth going to are the state level or higher shoots with the circus sideshows then i cant help ya.

there leaves a LOT of room for discussion at what motivates an archer to go to an event.


me? wellll....workin third shift cuts into some of the morning oriented start times since my last day of work ends at 6am on saturdays. being the low man, my vacation time is on the slim side. after being out of work for 2yrs, i rather enjoy working, catching up on my bills and surviving every day life and making small improvements. i dont have access to a 24hr facility to shoot when it's convenient to me. for me to get out and shoot outside, i also have to do some of the periodic range maintenance. by the time that is over, im just a lil wore out to shoot.


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## Brown Hornet

I'm not reading this whole ridiculous thing....just putting it out there at the start. 

Sorry but I'm gonna call BULL POO.....that's just an excuse. Nobody is not shooting because they have to join both. If that's the reason they give the the statement above in caps. 

1st off you can shoot as a guest....I know I have shot in md numerous times as a guest. 

2nd most of your shooters should already been joined up....at least you would think so since you have such good indoor turnouts for states and what not. Ooooppppssss

3rd the dues to join the NFAA in your state are 15 freaking dollars.....so if you think anyone is gonna believe the I'm not shooting cus I gotta join and I'm not paying money or can't afford it when I have a $1000-$2000 setup....

4th to join the NFAA it's $35....big deal....either support the org or don't play THEIR game. 

What do you mean I have to pay to play your golf course? What I can't fish in your tournament without paying? 

So basically what it boils down to is not supporting your state archery...not being to cheap or having poor turnouts because someone has to join. That's just a flat out excuse why they didn't shoot....and an easier one then I can't shoot that far or it's too many arrows or whatever the standard weak ones are. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hdracer

We average around 35 shooters for the State shoot. We'll see how many we get this weekend (OAA State Field Championship).

I held 3 local shoots (no membership required) this year. Here's the turnout:

Apr 0
May 1
Jun 3
Tomorrow and Sunday ?

With no shooters and way too much time required to maintain a course I do not believe we will have a shoot-able Field course next year. Not unless someone else steps up to help me. Average time to clear and maintain the course--6 hours a day, 1-2 weekends a month.

Even our 3D numbers are way down this year (avg 150-200 shooters thru the summer; avg this year less than 100).


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## tmorelli

I've thought about this one quite a bit since I'm a member at the club that has the only field course in OK and one of the 30-ish attendees the last two years. I have a few thoughts on it that are tough to organize and really tough on this phone so I'll be brief. 

1. The memberships are AN issue but not THE issue. Its true that indoor is better attended so many memberships are already paid by this time. I'm not one of those. It cost me $65 to shoot the course I shoot for free as part of my club membership. If get no other value from it. I probably won't shoot any other OSAA events. I have no track records of shooting other NFAA events. I shoot 3d.... 

2. Bang for the buck- the economy in OK is good....way better than every where else I work/travel/have family. Drill baby drill. So I don't "hear it" on the economical explanations. 3d is down for other reasons here THIS YEAR. With it went momentum amongst target shooters in general. It was the standard and that standard produced good attendance and payouts.... enough to pay for your fuel and entry fees for having attended if you shot well. 

Customers also want to know that their membership fees and entry fees are worth it. When I pay an ASA membership, I have access to 7 big tournaments and countless state level shoots.... all of which pay back and have nice prizes. When i pay an OSAA/NFAA memberships or entry fee, my wallet hurts.... after the club's cut, I can't tell you what that money is doing. (Not literally, I see the reports) I'm saying that I don't see value as all that is there for me is state field....

Since someone will jump to defend NFAA and point out I could attend sectionals and field nationals, etc.... let me clarify. The closest well attended NFAA event is farther than the furthest ASA.... which i dont attend due to distance. But if I did attend and won it, the trip wouldn't cost me anything. I can't say that about NFAA. I do have a beef that they wont put money into the amateurs in field archery.

3. The prophecy is self fulfilling. Field is only popular in small pockets of the country now. Death has momentum. I think the game here got down enough that people don't know how to play it and don't know who to learn from. Nobody wants to look stupid and I think that is what primarily keeps people away. Our club has a very nice range, is improving it again and is holding field rounds coinciding with every club 3d shoot. I'm hopeful it continues to present opportunities to introduce new shooters.

4. Personal note- the OSAA schedules a known distance 3d once each year. It is held 4 hours from me. There are no prizes, no titles. Then holds the state 3d and doesn't have a known class. So, I don't shoot. .... just a personal gripe.

5. We are a big club with a facility and assets most only dream of. I'm an advocate of some shoots of our own brand.... not sanctioned. The club has even grown the State Games into a big event. It will have 150+ shooting field, 3d and a 900 round starting tomorrow..... but you can't get 30 of them to come for an OSAA state field championship. Hmmmm 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## mag41vance

We as archers need to support our sport period!
That means Dues, and showing up to the tournaments and shoot them or at least make your donation. Keep the sport alive!


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## RatherBArchery

I am lucky enough to live in Southeastern PA where field archery is alive and well.


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## Gapmaster

In California the State Field is held at several different locations, usually on the same weekend. Several different clubs host the tournament and you can go shoot whichever range you choose to shoot at. This was done to try and increase participation, to make it easier for shooters to participate without traveling to one location that might be a great distance from their home. Then all the scores are turned in and they crown a champion.

For me, this arrangement produced just the opposite effect. I have no interest in participating because I feel everyone needs to shoot the same targets on the same course in the same weather conditions with their competition right there doing the same thing. How can you claim to be a State Champion when you might have shot the tournament on a bluebird day on a flat course while someone else shot on a windy day on a hilly course. If it's such a good idea then why not hold the Vegas tournament at several different venues on the same day, or the NFAA Nationals at several different venues on the same weekend, etc. Do you think the Senior Pro Tour would use several different golf courses on the same weekend and then name a champion? Probably not. It is for this reason I choose not to play the State Field game, or any other tournament that uses multiple courses or ranges on the same day. I do really love shooting field rounds and think it's probably the best practice you can get for yourself to all around improve and better yourself as an archer, but I think the format is a silly idea. If anyone is a really serious competitor I just don't see how they could agree with this format. I can tell you from experience that you might make a really good shot on a 40 yard target on the range you have decided to shoot the state field on for that particular weekend, but if another top shooter who you want to beat is standing next to you and you have to make that same shot things can change really quickly from the pressure of them just being there. Seems to me the program has gone from "who is the best archer in the state" to " how can we make more money". Just my thoughts on the matter not wishing to hash anything with anybody, but I will say I would more inclined to go if everyone shot the same field range on the same day.


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## archer_nm

Gap master, I agree with you 100%, I would love to have everyone once again travel to the Sectional indoor in one location. Do you know that we had no one from your state at our outdoor sectional what a shame.


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## rogersaddler

There was only 78 shooters for the Great Lakes Sectionals. Not very many.
One of the reasons I think field participation is down is the lack of courses to shoot now days. The number of arrows per round and the large range of distances shot


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## wa-prez

Our Washington State Field had 79 participants - of whom 8 shot as "Guest" (non-members not eligible for awards).

We also had 10 new or renewal WSAA and NFAA memberships of people who took care of the memberhiship requirement so they can COMPETE.

79 is about par for our outdoor state championship shoots.
We had 99 for the Safari shoot (at which we require State membership only)
We had also 79 for the 3D Championship (also only requires State membership)
The Target Championship is coming up in July. We requre both State and National membership for that one.
If I remember, we get a LITTLE more than that for the indoor events. We do both an Indoor Multi-Color (like a pre-Vegas) and require State membership only plus the Indoor Blueface which requres State and National membership.


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## Rolo

Brown Hornet said:


> I'm not reading this whole ridiculous thing....just putting it out there at the start.
> 
> Sorry but I'm gonna call BULL POO.....that's just an excuse. Nobody is not shooting because they have to join both. If that's the reason they give the the statement above in caps.
> 
> 1st off you can shoot as a guest....I know I have shot in md numerous times as a guest.
> 
> 2nd most of your shooters should already been joined up....at least you would think so since you have such good indoor turnouts for states and what not. Ooooppppssss
> 
> 3rd the dues to join the NFAA in your state are 15 freaking dollars.....so if you think anyone is gonna believe the I'm not shooting cus I gotta join and I'm not paying money or can't afford it when I have a $1000-$2000 setup....
> 
> 4th to join the NFAA it's $35....big deal....either support the org or don't play THEIR game.
> 
> What do you mean I have to pay to play your golf course? What I can't fish in your tournament without paying?
> 
> So basically what it boils down to is not supporting your state archery...not being to cheap or having poor turnouts because someone has to join. That's just a flat out excuse why they didn't shoot....and an easier one then I can't shoot that far or it's too many arrows or whatever the standard weak ones are.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed! :thumbs_up



tmorelli said:


> I've thought about this one quite a bit since I'm a member at the club that has the only field course in OK and one of the 30-ish attendees the last two years. I have a few thoughts on it that are tough to organize and really tough on this phone so I'll be brief.
> 
> 1. The memberships are AN issue but not THE issue. Its true that indoor is better attended so many memberships are already paid by this time. I'm not one of those. It cost me $65 to shoot the course I shoot for free as part of my club membership. If get no other value from it. I probably won't shoot any other OSAA events. I have no track records of shooting other NFAA events. I shoot 3d....
> 
> 2. Bang for the buck- the economy in OK is good....way better than every where else I work/travel/have family. Drill baby drill. So I don't "hear it" on the economical explanations. 3d is down for other reasons here THIS YEAR. With it went momentum amongst target shooters in general. It was the standard and that standard produced good attendance and payouts.... enough to pay for your fuel and entry fees for having attended if you shot well.
> 
> Customers also want to know that their membership fees and entry fees are worth it. When I pay an ASA membership, I have access to 7 big tournaments and countless state level shoots.... all of which pay back and have nice prizes. When i pay an OSAA/NFAA memberships or entry fee, my wallet hurts.... after the club's cut, I can't tell you what that money is doing. (Not literally, I see the reports) I'm saying that I don't see value as all that is there for me is state field....
> 
> Since someone will jump to defend NFAA and point out I could attend sectionals and field nationals, etc.... let me clarify. The closest well attended NFAA event is farther than the furthest ASA.... which i dont attend due to distance. But if I did attend and won it, the trip wouldn't cost me anything. I can't say that about NFAA. I do have a beef that they wont put money into the amateurs in field archery.
> 
> 3. The prophecy is self fulfilling. Field is only popular in small pockets of the country now. Death has momentum. I think the game here got down enough that people don't know how to play it and don't know who to learn from. Nobody wants to look stupid and I think that is what primarily keeps people away. Our club has a very nice range, is improving it again and is holding field rounds coinciding with every club 3d shoot. I'm hopeful it continues to present opportunities to introduce new shooters.
> 
> 4. Personal note- the OSAA schedules a known distance 3d once each year. It is held 4 hours from me. There are no prizes, no titles. Then holds the state 3d and doesn't have a known class. So, I don't shoot. .... just a personal gripe.
> 
> 5. We are a big club with a facility and assets most only dream of. I'm an advocate of some shoots of our own brand.... not sanctioned. The club has even grown the State Games into a big event. It will have 150+ shooting field, 3d and a 900 round starting tomorrow..... but you can't get 30 of them to come for an OSAA state field championship. Hmmmm
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Can't really disagree with much of that, at least generally.

The one thing that this and other discussions that intrigue, and to a degree, bother me, is the focus on money, and people's unwillingness to attend unless they might win some. Not saying that is a bad thing, but I think it speaks more to a shift in personal motivation, rather than a change in the game.

The NFAA (which has a host of issues IMO) has never had pay-outs for AM classes, yet they used to be huge. Nothing has changed in that regard, except the motivations of the people. 

I don't think that's totally it though, interests change too, lives change, etc.

I do think Hornet has a lot of it right though...a least in my experience and the people around me...they don't like shooting that many arrows, and they don't like shooting that distance. Throw paper in, and not foam, and interest gets less.


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## Daniel Boone

Glad some of you feel field a growing sport.

Here in the midwest it a dying sport and I don't see any growth at least the last five to six years.

Been involved in Oklahoma archery and seen growth in other venues.

Younger archers simply are not gearing up for field or indoor archery.

Honestly feel Oklahoma could drop NFAA and start are own ASSC for target and create something better.

Got my ten year member pin today from NFAA. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> I've thought about this one quite a bit since I'm a member at the club that has the only field course in OK and one of the 30-ish attendees the last two years. I have a few thoughts on it that are tough to organize and really tough on this phone so I'll be brief.
> 
> 1. The memberships are AN issue but not THE issue. Its true that indoor is better attended so many memberships are already paid by this time. I'm not one of those. It cost me $65 to shoot the course I shoot for free as part of my club membership. If get no other value from it. I probably won't shoot any other OSAA events. I have no track records of shooting other NFAA events. I shoot 3d....
> 
> 2. Bang for the buck- the economy in OK is good....way better than every where else I work/travel/have family. Drill baby drill. So I don't "hear it" on the economical explanations. 3d is down for other reasons here THIS YEAR. With it went momentum amongst target shooters in general. It was the standard and that standard produced good attendance and payouts.... enough to pay for your fuel and entry fees for having attended if you shot well.
> 
> Customers also want to know that their membership fees and entry fees are worth it. When I pay an ASA membership, I have access to 7 big tournaments and countless state level shoots.... all of which pay back and have nice prizes. When i pay an OSAA/NFAA memberships or entry fee, my wallet hurts.... after the club's cut, I can't tell you what that money is doing. (Not literally, I see the reports) I'm saying that I don't see value as all that is there for me is state field....
> 
> Since someone will jump to defend NFAA and point out I could attend sectionals and field nationals, etc.... let me clarify. The closest well attended NFAA event is farther than the furthest ASA.... which i dont attend due to distance. But if I did attend and won it, the trip wouldn't cost me anything. I can't say that about NFAA. I do have a beef that they wont put money into the amateurs in field archery.
> 
> 3. The prophecy is self fulfilling. Field is only popular in small pockets of the country now. Death has momentum. I think the game here got down enough that people don't know how to play it and don't know who to learn from. Nobody wants to look stupid and I think that is what primarily keeps people away. Our club has a very nice range, is improving it again and is holding field rounds coinciding with every club 3d shoot. I'm hopeful it continues to present opportunities to introduce new shooters.
> 
> 4. Personal note- the OSAA schedules a known distance 3d once each year. It is held 4 hours from me. There are no prizes, no titles. Then holds the state 3d and doesn't have a known class. So, I don't shoot. .... just a personal gripe.
> 
> 5. We are a big club with a facility and assets most only dream of. I'm an advocate of some shoots of our own brand.... not sanctioned. The club has even grown the State Games into a big event. It will have 150+ shooting field, 3d and a 900 round starting tomorrow..... but you can't get 30 of them to come for an OSAA state field championship. Hmmmm
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Tony the Sooner state games is one heck of bargain to shoot and T Shirt for free. Would be interested in hearing how many shoot the field/900 event. I know the 3d will be popular.
DB


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## treeman65

Daniel Boone said:


> Glad some of you feel field a growing sport.
> 
> Here in the midwest it a dying sport and I don't see any growth at least the last five to six years.
> 
> Been involved in Oklahoma archery and seen growth in other venues.
> 
> 
> 
> Younger archers simply are not gearing up for field or indoor archery.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly feel Oklahoma could drop NFAA and start are own ASSC for target and create something better.
> 
> 
> 
> Got my ten year member pin today from NFAA.
> 
> 
> DB


I do see how dropping nfaa and starting another assoc in your state would make field grow A organization within a state with no national shoot is only going to appeal to the local shooters. I person would like to see nfaa state so kind of pro am with 3 field shoots in Midwest 3 in the west and 3 in east were you earn rankings to work towards standings going into nationals


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## knotdodger

The people shooting 3d at out club was down this year also. Not sure why. 
I just am starting to shoot field. Shot the course at our club once. Going to shoot
it more. I would have went to the Great lakes sectionals , but I had a Fita tournament
that same weekend that was planned 9 months ago. 
And the State Field is coming up in the U.P. 5 hours away. Which I would drive that far , 
being new at this. But,,,, That's the same weekend of the IBO Traditional world shoot
5 hours the other way. 
That was planned months ago also... 

Being new to field , I would not miss any of the 3 Fita target shoots we have in the state 
each year. And I would not miss that State 900. Or the Trad worlds. 
Never been to a actual field tournament, But I will sooner or later. Then , 
maybe I would be planning field for the next year..... 

Rob B.


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## knotdodger

Even the clubs close to me have field courses , But no one has even a little local tournament, or 
fun event!!!! That would get my attention for starting to shoot field for sure...


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## tmorelli

Rolo said:


> The one thing that this and other discussions that intrigue, and to a degree, bother me, is the focus on money, and people's unwillingness to attend unless they might win some. Not saying that is a bad thing, but I think it speaks more to a shift in personal motivation, rather than a change in the game.
> 
> The NFAA (which has a host of issues IMO) has never had pay-outs for AM classes, yet they used to be huge. Nothing has changed in that regard, except the motivations of the people.


Guilty as charged. NFAA was huge when that's all there was to choose from.... or at least I hear that it was. The way the story gets told to me is that the NFAA has been guilty of greasing the squeaky wheel (the pros) by changing rules that separated the elite shooters from the average guys even further. And the average guys dwindled off as a result. You're left with what you have now. 

But more importantly, the focus on money is the result of a choice. There is a game I can play all year for the cost of one trip to NFAA field nationals if I shoot well.

Basically: I enjoy 3d, it pays, its closer. I enjoy field, it doesn't pay, its farther. Why would I choose field over 3d?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## jeff_r

We shot Sooner State Games field and State Field last weekend. We really like field even though we struggle with it some times. I personally could do without 3D. We will shoot the 900 round tomorrow. 

2 big problems with the way the OSAA is run. 1. As of this morning we still do not have scores posted for state field. That is ridiculous. 2. if someone won they get their award in December. That sucks especially for the juniors. 


I really like field archery because I like to shoot. 20 arrows on a 3d course seems like a waste of time. 

To grow participation in field maybe we could look to other shooting sports. One of the fastest growing shooting sports right now is Ruger Rimfire. Very beginner friendly, they usually have a good prizes that are given out by random draw. Competition winners get awards. Everyone has a good time. I do not see why we couldn't do something similar with state level field matches. The random draw for good prizes may attract new people, but keep away the mercenaries. 

We also need to use technology. Is there any reason why scores can't be posted in a forum on AT?

Ok rant done.


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## archer_nm

If your at the tournament then why would they need to be posted on AT, oh yea you did not go! If that would get folks to show up I would be the first to see it was done. I have been at this sport for over 35 years and have seen every excuse in the book for not going to the Field shoots and it comes down to not caring about the sport and there is no changes that we could make that would get some of you to show up. Shooters wanted the Nationals to be only 3 days, ok it was done, no change in numbers, then they wanted it to be in conjunction with weekends, still no change. The bottom line is YOU don't like field, at least as much as some of the rest of us. I will be putting together an agenda item that will take the NFAA back to days gone by and it will to once again have the Nationals a full 5 days M-f, numbers won't change but at least all of us will enjoy our rounds.


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## Daniel Boone

archer_nm said:


> If your at the tournament then why would they need to be posted on AT, oh yea you did not go! If that would get folks to show up I would be the first to see it was done. I have been at this sport for over 35 years and have seen every excuse in the book for not going to the Field shoots and it comes down to not caring about the sport and there is no changes that we could make that would get some of you to show up. Shooters wanted the Nationals to be only 3 days, ok it was done, no change in numbers, then they wanted it to be in conjunction with weekends, still no change. The bottom line is YOU don't like field, at least as much as some of the rest of us. I will be putting together an agenda item that will take the NFAA back to days gone by and it will to once again have the Nationals a full 5 days M-f, numbers won't change but at least all of us will enjoy our rounds.


You dont have a qlue what your talking about. Been a member for many years and run the NFAA state website (thankless job) and promote NFAA all the time. I had a near death exsperiance this year. 36 days on life support and I am not strong enough to shoot period. I have posted plenty about field and how enjoyable it is to shoot here in the past with pictures. I was one of the many that fought to get 50 year od rule which Im now 55 but glad to see it happen for the good of the sport. I dont like seeing are state assc going downhill. I will be shooting field and 900 rounds next year and bet I promote both of them more by accident than you ever do. 
So before popping off next time do some research. 
DB

Website I try to run to promote NFAA in my state. 90% of the pictures were taken by me and posted to promote Oklahoma Archery.
Im dissapointed and will next year try to increase these numbers and bet I do.

http://oklahomaarchery.org/DEV/index.php


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## Rolo

tmorelli said:


> Guilty as charged. NFAA was huge when that's all there was to choose from.... or at least I hear that it was. The way the story gets told to me is that the NFAA has been guilty of greasing the squeaky wheel (the pros) by changing rules that separated the elite shooters from the average guys even further. And the average guys dwindled off as a result. You're left with what you have now.
> 
> But more importantly, the focus on money is the result of a choice. There is a game I can play all year for the cost of one trip to NFAA field nationals if I shoot well.
> 
> Basically: I enjoy 3d, it pays, its closer. I enjoy field, it doesn't pay, its farther. Why would I choose field over 3d?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Meh...nutt'n to be 'guilty about, it is what it is.

I get the 'one nationals' thing, but it seems to me the real problem is the lack of interest in field over-all (for whatever reason). But that's a result of lack of opportunity, and to some degree the local clubs (however many remain that have field ranges) the states, etc, doing anything to promote it. Look at what they are doing in Europe with that 'pro series' thing.

On thing about field though is, at least on the home course...the shots are always the same.

Oh...based on the current state of affairs...I wouldn't either.


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## archer_nm

DB take good look at my signature and you will notice that I do have a clue and I am sorry for your near death experience but that has no bearing on what I have said. I have sat on the NFAA board longer then you have been a member and have seen the ups and down of the organization and am frankly tired of the excuses given by many who chime in on AT. If I remember I did not see your face at the national meeting so don't tell me how hard you fought for the fifty change. It took a majority of Directors to vote that in and if my memory serves me right your are not a Director and AT had nothing to do with the vote. I would bet that most of the Directors pay little attention to what goes on here at AT, if that we're then they would not be so surprised at some of the agenda items that show up and that I know we're talked about on this site.


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## tmorelli

DB, on a side note....

I just got a text message that Sooner State Games' 900 round hit capacity today. 

26 full targets. 

As you know, Sunday is always the big day. Can't wait to see the numbers. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Daniel Boone

archer_nm said:


> DB take good look at my signature and you will notice that I do have a clue and I am sorry for your near death experience but that has no bearing on what I have said. I have sat on the NFAA board longer then you have been a member and have seen the ups and down of the organization and am frankly tired of the excuses given by many who chime in on AT. If I remember I did not see your face at the national meeting so don't tell me how hard you fought for the fifty change. It took a majority of Directors to vote that in and if my memory serves me right your are not a Director and AT had nothing to do with the vote. I would bet that most of the Directors pay little attention to what goes on here at AT, if that we're then they would not be so surprised at some of the agenda items that show up and that I know we're talked about on this site.


Guys like you at the NFAA level that make guys like me not want to support such an organization at all. Nexttime Ill post Im happy we only got 30 archers. Personally should be like many and not give a damn. No I have never set on any board for NFAA but yet anyone from my state realizes the importance I do promoting the sport. I darn sure don't sweat what you think.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> DB, on a side note....
> 
> I just got a text message that Sooner State Games' 900 round hit capacity today.
> 
> 26 full targets.
> 
> As you know, Sunday is always the big day. Can't wait to see the numbers.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Amazing in the wind today. Maybe we will see some growth in thee future. How about the field event? Glad to see Sooner State games are doing so well. I would love to see Wagoner purchase the targets. I mentioned it to Roger again today.

DB


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## archer_nm

DB , the response you took to heart was directed at some one other than you and I took it personel when you told me I had no clue, I have witnessed the roller coaster ride first hand of the NFAA, that being said I want to thank you for your work in OK on behalf of the NFAA. Our sectional had only 27 shooter and I was heart broken to see that, so any negativity towards the NFAA causes me to get mad. The negativity did not come from you, as you are trying to promote the very organization that I would bleed for and again Thank you for helping.


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## Daniel Boone

archer_nm said:


> DB , the response you took to heart was directed at some one other than you and I took it personel when you told me I had no clue, I have witnessed the roller coaster ride first hand of the NFAA, that being said I want to thank you for your work in OK on behalf of the NFAA. Our sectional had only 27 shooter and I was heart broken to see that, so any negativity towards the NFAA causes me to get mad. The negativity did not come from you, as you are trying to promote the very organization that I would bleed for and again Thank you for helping.



I dont have the answers but feel if something doesnt change the next few years field will be a archery dinosaur in my state. Only two field courses in the state as it is right now. I have to drive to Missouri if I want to shoot field. Time will tell but it is dissapointing for me to see.
DB


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## jeff_r

Hey Bob what about I shot the State field and state games field did you not understand? I shot the tournaments that is why I am interested in the scores. I shot the tournaments that is why I am interested in the scores and would like to see them posted a little sooner than 2 months after the shoot like our state indoor scores were. 

Who said anything about hating field? I love it. It is one of my favorite tournents to shoot. Unfortunately there are not that many opportunities. I also think we can do a better job of promoting it and running it. It seems to me that if you can grow interest nationally by first making sure the state tournaments and organizations are strong. 

I am sorry if the idea of looking to other more successful shooting sports for ideas offends you.

Bob go ahead and change the nationals to not shoot over a weekend. Just make it that much harder for people with jobs to attend. I am sure that will solve the problem. You might kill what little interest there is in your shoot but hey at least you can enjoy your rounds.


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## Brown Hornet

Daniel Boone said:


> I dont have the answers but feel if something doesnt change the next few years field will be a archery dinosaur in my state. Only two field courses in the state as it is right now. I have to drive to Missouri if I want to shoot field. Time will tell but it is dissapointing for me to see.
> DB


Contrary to popular belief....it isn't the NFAAs responsibility to make sure people show up to shoots in your state....

Numbers are down in EVERY state....clubs push 3D....until they stop pushing 98-100% 3D the numbers will continue to shrink. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## treeman65

Brown Hornet said:


> Contrary to popular belief....it isn't the NFAAs responsibility to make sure people show up to shoots in your state....
> 
> Numbers are down in EVERY state....clubs push 3D....until they stop pushing 98-100% 3D the numbers will continue to shrink.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We are on our way to shoot a memorial field shoot today all the Chewies can step aside:darkbeer:
You are exactly right and I wish clubs would stop pushingn3d


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## field14

We as members of the NFAA (myself a 45 year paid up member of the NFAA) are the ones ultimately responsible for PROMOTION of the sport of field archery. Sadly most of us are not doing an adequate job of it at all.
I'd just about wager than the majority of members of the NFAA that have come on board within the past 10 years aren't even aware of the NFAA system of achievement awards offered by the organization...and even fewer have ever cashed in on them either! 
Why? Simple...most of the old farts don't PROMOTE this at all. They are hung up with shooting round after round, after round trying for better scores and crying the blues about people not showing up...but NOT getting off their duffs to go out and TRY to get people to come to field shoots.
The CLUBS are next on that list of non-promoters. Most clubs today have only one or two things on their minds: 3-D, and making money so they can brag about how large their treasury is (many clubs are non-profit...so are in violation of the law with the IRS if the club has a large treasury!). They spend all their promotion time promoting their 3-D series and little mention and even fewer communications are being sent out about the field events (if they hold 'em at all). They bark and complain about the "Field course" not having anyone shooting it...but when you go out onto the course to practice...the targets are all shot out...Guess all those arrow holes are shot into the target faces by gremlins, or something, huh?
The State Associations (many of them, but not all) are next in line for NOT promoting things. There are some newbie Directors and State Association board members that are likely either clueless about the incentive programs offered by the NFAA for its shooters...OR...they simply don't figure it is worth their time to bother to mention them at all. I remember in the past that nearly every State Association I had belonged to had...a 20-Pin and Incentives Secretary...whose responsibility was to promote those incentives and make sure the people that earned them were made aware of them! Not so any more for several State Associations!
Next comes the NFAA itself..from the top or near the top. I haven't heard about any membership drive campaign in years...like in so many years that I've lost count! I do remember State Associations sponsoring membership drives for the State and NFAA and giving some pretty nice awards to the person that brought in the most new members. That, too, has long since fallen by the wayside.
The advertising for the National FIELD Archery Association has focused around the INDOOR events, such as the WAF Vegas, the Classic, The NFAA INDOOR Nationals, and of course Redding. The big push for the promotion of the NFAA Outdoor National FIELD Championships seems to be pretty much left to the host club.
So, that being said...how many on here are aware of those Incentives? I won't list them all...but I will list those that really used to help keep FIELD shooters and BOWHUNTERS really interested in joining the NFAA and shooting the competitions, as in really interested and looking forward to trying to grasp these personal "achievement awards"...the shift today has become more towards "leader-board placement" and "money winnings" as opposed to PERSONAL achievement.

*20 pins*? Few bother to mention those to any newbie, and I'd also venture to guess local clubs and the State Association don't bother to advertise these or announce that this shoot is a 20 pin qualifed shoot? Most newbies I know aren't even aware of these until I tell them about them. 
_I can still remember the thrill and fun we had working on building our 20-pin chain; the most sought after was to get a 20 pin for the 80 yard walkup! Then, when 560's became popular; we'd only get the 20 pins if we shot a perfect half or perfect 560 so we could have the entire "tree" including the PERFECT PIN._ I haven't heard mention of the 20 pins in years. _How many of you actually have your 20 pin tree built for the field and hunter rounds? _
*500 Club Certificate and Patch*? Same situation. If the SHOOTER doesn't ask for it, nobody mentions it or keeps track of those that have earned this award!
*Order of Robin Hood Certificate*. Yet another award YOU have coming if you shoot a "Robin Hood" during a competition or NFAA league! Nope...nobody mentions this or keeps track of it either.
*Order of the Bone*: Great award that is well earned. However so few know about it because nothing is said about it.
*Art Young Small and Big Game Awards*: You got it. The NFAA is indeed a bowhunter oriented organization, but few know about these awards that any NFAA member can get. Nobody tells the newbies about these either!
*NFAA League Score Achievement Patches*: Yet again, so few indoor leagues bother for NFAA sanction, passing up on the achievement patches for achieving scores in 10 point increments.
*NFAA Perfect 300 Patch*. How many that shoot the NFAA Indoor Nationals and shoot a perfect 300 (or even in their NFAA State Indoor or any sanctioned NFAA shoot) bother to get this patch? Once again...not mentioned, promoted, or advertised.

There are more, but you get my point. This is why I get so upset with folks that say the NFAA has NOTHING to offer its members. People won't READ, we old farts that have been around awhile are dropping the ball, the CLUBS are dropping the ball, the State Associations are dropping the ball.

Check out the NFAA Manual and you'll find this...but unfortunately, the impetus for advertising this stuff has long since been put on the back burner!
Does ASA or IBO offer stuff like this to their members? I don't think so.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## ThunderEagle

I had no idea any such things existed. I joined the NFAA last year because I was going to a few OAA shoots. I think I've participated in everything they had this year except for the last two. The first one I missed was the State 3D. Mainly because I'm not interested in unmarked shoots, and I wasn't driving 5 hours for 30 shots. I am missing the State Field shoot this weekend as well. I really, really wanted to go, but again, it was on the other side of the state, and I've had some more pressing things going on this week anyhow. I do plan on hitting the 600 round in August, but then I believe they are done until the first of the year then.

I'm curious about the sanctioned league though. I know where I shoot, they are looking to get more involved with the state organization, at least they were this year. I wonder what it takes to get it sanctioned.

I've been curious myself what it would take to try and get some kind of outdoor shoot up here in NE Ohio. Seems like a lot of the shooters are up this way, but most of the shoots are not. We have the Field Course in Punderson state park, but I don't have the first clue what it would take to organize an event. In a lot of ways, I think we would have to teach people what the game is, hell, I barely understand it. But I would love to see some NFAA sanctioned Field and 900 rounds up here, especially if I can earn pins and patches to put on my quiver, that would be cool!


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## field14

Let me add that there are Bowhunter Achievement Awards; Bowfisher Achievement Awards; Diamond Buck Awards; Compton Medal of Honor; The President's Award; and the Medal of Merit...Awards seldom mentioned and rarely "promoted" by WE the members!

Check it out: Starting on P. 66 and onwards....
http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/1401-2013611-Constitution & By-Laws 2013-2014.pdf 

So....I guess the NFAA DOES offer a lot to its membership; more than most of the other organizations, and more than just Archery Magazine, too.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

ThunderEagle said:


> _I had no idea any such things existed_. I joined the NFAA last year because I was going to a few OAA shoots. I think I've participated in everything they had this year except for the last two. The first one I missed was the State 3D. Mainly because I'm not interested in unmarked shoots, and I wasn't driving 5 hours for 30 shots. I am missing the State Field shoot this weekend as well. I really, really wanted to go, but again, it was on the other side of the state, and I've had some more pressing things going on this week anyhow. I do plan on hitting the 600 round in August, but then I believe they are done until the first of the year then.
> 
> I'm curious about the sanctioned league though. I know where I shoot, they are looking to get more involved with the state organization, at least they were this year. I wonder what it takes to get it sanctioned.
> 
> I've been curious myself what it would take to try and get some kind of outdoor shoot up here in NE Ohio. Seems like a lot of the shooters are up this way, but most of the shoots are not. We have the Field Course in Punderson state park, but I don't have the first clue what it would take to organize an event. In a lot of ways, I think we would have to teach people what the game is, hell, I barely understand it. But I would love to see some NFAA sanctioned Field and 900 rounds up here, especially if I can earn pins and patches to put on my quiver, that would be cool!


In red above...it is not your fault you weren't aware of these things...it is the fault of those introducing you to the NFAA, because they just don't think about these things much these days! Everyone is caught up on their own "palmarès" and glory and trying to get a podium finish that they forget totally about all the good stuff that is out there for the NFAA member!

Here's a link...and in those pages are included BOTH the Indoor and the OUTDOOR league programs and awards offered through the NFAA:

http://www.nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/1401-2013611-Constitution & By-Laws 2013-2014.pdf 

I think that when you read what is available, you will quickly conclude that the NFAA isn't such a bad organization after all, and offers much more than just "sanctioned competitiion" and/or MONEY to its membership!

I might also add this important item that has since fallen through the cracks. Up until about 10 years ago or so...when I attended ANY NFAA tournament...there was a person at the table where you turned in your scorecards whose sole responsibility was to ASK THE SHOOTER if they earned any 20 pins, shot over 500, shot a perfect score, and/or wanted the awards they EARNED to go with it. THAT isn't the case for many tournaments anymore. At indoor shoots, those turning in a 300 score were asked if they wanted their 300 Score Certificate and their "300 Patch." It was a matter of course and courtesy. Many clubs GAVE the 300 patch to the person that had just shot their first 300; again, as a matter of courtesy! Didn't have to ASK for it; you got it given to you if you wanted it. What "newbie" would turn this down?
I think some of it was that a person can't be found that is willing to do this; the club/State association doesn't want to invest in an 'inventory' of those awards (due to so few shooters attending), and particularly, I think it is just an oversight due to lack of knowledge on behalf of the club leadership and/or State Associations???


T


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## ThunderEagle

You know, those awards I think would be great for new archers, especially kids.

Hell, I'd be much more excited with shoots.

I've got some reading to do, the try to contact some people.


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## rock monkey

i know i busted my hump last year with a full schedule of International Rounds at Bow&Barrel Archers. my participation rate last year mirrors that of HDRACER's for this year.

i'm one guy, that i am aware of, who works on the known distance, big round target course. yes, other members take care of the common areas but have no idea what to do nor do they ask to help with the target stuff let alone how to shoot it. yet i see more holes in the targets that arent my arrows. ok...someone is shooting the course.

this year, my club work is WAY less. my job and schedule limit it and to be honest, i really have no motivation to do ALL the work for so LITTLE return. we have one scheduled IR shoot this year on August 24th. it's part to drum up interest for new shooters and to reward those that come. i'm having a lake erie perch fish fry. all the shooters eat free and spectators/hungry folk it's $10....same cost to shoot. not sure how much food to make or fish to thaw using past attendance.

i keep being told how little of a challenge it is to shoot that round target-known distance stuff. last year, i used my own money to buy a $50 gift card at gander mtn to give to the first one who could clean the course. i put it to good use.

the International Round is a fairly straight forward shoot with all the confusing targets left out. no bunny, walk-ups, fans or the dreaded 80yd shot. 3 arrows per target, 20 targets total distances from 20 to 65yds. total of 60 arrows shot at the hunter face. dunno how much easier it can be to shoot it and i dont know how much less intimidating a course can be made.

people just dont want to shoot the big round target and that's it.


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## ccwilder3

The lack of courses and the lack of tournaments at the courses that do exist, are what seem to be the biggest factor.
I have taken a number of people to shoot a field round. Only one has joined the club and we shoot it together occasionally. For the others, while they enjoyed it, the distance to the course is I think the main detraction.

I had never heard of field until I went to a 3d shoot and saw a bunch of intriguing looking targets scattered along the course. After asking a few questions, I joined up. I love to shoot field, but there are very few opportunities to do so as far as competition go.
Go into almost any sporting good store around and you will see flyers for 3d shoots. I have never saw one for a field shoot.

I have been shooting field since 2007 and have won two state championships and field14's post is the first thing I've ever heard about awards or pins. I am a goal oriented person and like something to shoot for. At a NAA sanctioned tournament this weekend, a group of youngsters were comparing their accomplishment pins and awards which were proudly displayed on their quivers. At the time I thought that the NFAA needed something similar. The kids seemed really excited about it. Now I find out the the NFAA does have a similar program.


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## field14

ccwilder3 said:


> The lack of courses and the lack of tournaments at the courses that do exist, are what seem to be the biggest factor.
> I have taken a number of people to shoot a field round. Only one has joined the club and we shoot it together occasionally. For the others, while they enjoyed it, the distance to the course is I think the main detraction.
> 
> I had never heard of field until I went to a 3d shoot and saw a bunch of intriguing looking targets scattered along the course. After asking a few questions, I joined up. I love to shoot field, but there are very few opportunities to do so as far as competition go.
> Go into almost any sporting good store around and you will see flyers for 3d shoots. I have never saw one for a field shoot.
> 
> I have been shooting field since 2007 and have won two state championships and field14's post is the first thing I've ever heard about awards or pins. I am a goal oriented person and like something to shoot for. At a NAA sanctioned tournament this weekend, a group of youngsters were comparing their accomplishment pins and awards which were proudly displayed on their quivers. At the time I thought that the NFAA needed something similar. The kids seemed really excited about it. Now I find out the the NFAA does have a similar program.


Yep, I started NFAA competition way back with the dinosaurs, and the 20 pin program and the others were there then. The 20 pin program back then, however, was WAY different. In order to qualify to start your 20 pins for that tournament, you had to first shoot a "20" on an 18 inch target face or larger and THEN you started your 20 pin collection for the day! So, we would bust butt to try to get a "20" on the 35 or 36 fan, the 45 yarder, or the 45 walk up, or the 50...because if we didn't do that first, then we couldn't get any 20 pins for that outing. You could either get a "perfect" pin for shooting a perfect 280 half, OR you could get it by having ALL of the 14 "20 pins" for an entire unit of Hunter or Field targets. The Hunter pins were distinctly different from the Field Round 20 pins, too. What an incentive and what fun to go after those things.
Now, however, all you gotta do is shoot a "20" on any target and you can get the pin for it, which is fine; but it was more fun to have to qualify to start the string first.
I was the first fingers/recurved bow shooter in the State of Wyoming to shoot over 500 on a field or hunter round; it was that tough to get one back then; at least on the wild and hilly/windy courses in Wyoming, that is. I cherished that Patch and Certificate...and wouldn't you know...somewhere, somehow, they got lost in one of our many moves along with numerous chains of field and Hunter 20 pins, a perfect Animal round patch and a host of other things that went into la-la land in a lost box on one of the moves. GRRRRRRRR. I have some if the incomplete 20 pin strings.
Some States even had their own version of the field and Hunter 20 pins, too. Ohio used to do this and I have some of those; but again the full strings with the perfect pins attached...were in that same box of lost items. GRRRRRR.

You wouldn't believe the knick-knacks or bric-a-brac shooters came up with to show off their wares and accomplishments. Derby hats with their pins on them; some wore shooting vests complete with patches from the clubs where they had shot. Championship patches, archery related patches, and on and on. People wore them with pride...and nobody thought that the person wearing those was "conceited". 
*Some Clubs would charter buses to go to field shoots and/or novelty shoots*, and everyone going would wear their club shirts or at least their club patch so everyone knew where they were from.
Back then, it wasn't about winning MONEY or amateurs expecting to get MONEY for their efforts; it was for the fun and of course the added incentive of the pins, patches, progressive patches and the like just added to the fun of it all! Don't seem to have any emphasis or concentration on the incentives these days....too much emphasis about winning something and trying to get money for it, too.

Another thing that has fallen by the wayside seems to be the 3-5-7 rule for getting an award. Unless there were at least 3 persons in your shooting division/class...NO AWARD was given. Had to have at least 5 to "pay" first and second place awards, and 7 or more to pay 3 places on awards. Now...just show up and shoot and if you are the only one...you still get an award for beating....'Yourself'. NOW...I will say that with all the classes and divisions, an NFAA club could go bankrupt if they tried to stock all the awards for all of the divisions, classes, and styles of shooting...it is gotten way too far out of hand.


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## archer_nm

Gentle men you have hit the nail on the head, the NFAA has more to offer than you know, please contact your state Directors and if you don't get the answers you are looking for then contact your Sectional Councilman.


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## field14

archer_nm said:


> Gentle men you have hit the nail on the head, the NFAA has more to offer than you know, please contact your state Directors and if you don't get the answers you are looking for then contact your Sectional Councilman.


Yes, but it STILL comes down to those of us that have been around for awhile to tell the newbies about this. Most newbies are NOT going to look up or READ anything about the NFAA and its awards system...they are going to listen to other people they "think" know about the NFAA, and many of those don't know the ropes at all.
People today do not like to read, they only read when they have to, and will listen to people that seeminly know what they are talking about; even when said person is full of malarky!
I guess I'm just tired of hearing that the NFAA has NOTHING to offer a person for being an NFAA member when I know that such a statement is total HOGWASH!!! I hear people say that the NFAA is a "target shooters only" clique and does NOTHING for bow hunting? Oh, really?

I do remember that the NFAA used to have a complete kiosk of all the awards and the system for obtaining them that was on display at major events. In additions, I remember that at least 3 of the States (likely more) also had displays of the NFAA and the State's awards for different achievements.
I would like to see a very concentrated effort from the VP of the NFAA with regard to revitalizing and PROMOTING the NFAA's great achievement awards system; It is simply a matter of getting the word out there and advertising this at every major event, Sectional event, State event and let it trickle down to the clubs. YEAH...I know it is supposed to be a bottom to top organization...BUT...in this case...it may be better to work from the National level DOWN.

How many of you know about the NFAA College Scholarship Program? Uh-huh....few of you know about this either.....

field14 (Tom D.)


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## twofinger

I had put my bow down 3 years ago because of the sad state of affair of target archery in general. first of all if I want to shoot in the state tourney I be more and happy to join the state association but why do I need to be a nfaa member too? here in Illinois It is not cheap to join the state association and the nfaa and I don't see any benefits because nothing is done in the southern part of the state. there is no field range close to me. I have tried my but off to promote target archery I agree that we should support archery but the associations need to support us to. see what the usa archery is doing now with there money grab. I have got to be the most ignorant guy around because I will go out and try to get a target league going this winter only to be frustrated again at getting only 10 people to shoot.


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## LeeBo337

I have never shot anything than a bag at my buddy's place. So although I'm not a newbie to shooting my bow, I'm a newbie to attending a gathering. In fact, I found this thread by searching "Oklahoma" in hopes of finding information.

So.... If I want to find an event within two hours of my house, where do I go to look? That is, is there a website that has then listed by geography?


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## Daniel Boone

LeeBo337 said:


> I have never shot anything than a bag at my buddy's place. So although I'm not a newbie to shooting my bow, I'm a newbie to attending a gathering. In fact, I found this thread by searching "Oklahoma" in hopes of finding information.
> 
> So.... If I want to find an event within two hours of my house, where do I go to look? That is, is there a website that has then listed by geography?



Search Trosper Archery club

Oklahoma State Archery assc.

Regional shoots section for Oklahoma.

ASA website will all give shoot dates.
DB


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## LeeBo337

Daniel Boone said:


> Search Oklahoma State Archery assc.
> DB


I found their site but under events it says "Currently No Events Are Scheduled."

I'm sure this is an error as I can find events listed on other sites/forums. But if they're wanting to grow the sport.....

(Not trying to be a complainer, just saying that the Events calendar is often a critical component for most organizations.)


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## Daniel Boone

LeeBo337 said:


> I found their site but under events it says "Currently No Events Are Scheduled."
> 
> I'm sure this is an error as I can find events listed on other sites/forums. But if they're wanting to grow the sport.....
> 
> (Not trying to be a complainer, just saying that the Events calendar is often a critical component for most organizations.)



2013 schedule is on the home page. This is why we didn't put it on two places.

http://oklahomaarchery.org/DEV/index.php


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## brtesite

field14 said:


> We as members of the NFAA (myself a 45 year paid up member of the NFAA) are the ones ultimately responsible for PROMOTION of the sport of field archery. Sadly most of us are not doing an adequate job of it at all.
> I'd just about wager than the majority of members of the NFAA that have come on board within the past 10 years aren't even aware of the NFAA system of achievement awards offered by the organization...and even fewer have ever cashed in on them either!
> Why? Simple...most of the old farts don't PROMOTE this at all. They are hung up with shooting round after round, after round trying for better scores and crying the blues about people not showing up...but NOT getting off their duffs to go out and TRY to get people to come to field shoots.
> The CLUBS are next on that list of non-promoters. Most clubs today have only one or two things on their minds: 3-D, and making money so they can brag about how large their treasury is (many clubs are non-profit...so are in violation of the law with the IRS if the club has a large treasury!). They spend all their promotion time promoting their 3-D series and little mention and even fewer communications are being sent out about the field events (if they hold 'em at all). They bark and complain about the "Field course" not having anyone shooting it...but when you go out onto the course to practice...the targets are all shot out...Guess all those arrow holes are shot into the target faces by gremlins, or something, huh?
> The State Associations (many of them, but not all) are next in line for NOT promoting things. There are some newbie Directors and State Association board members that are likely either clueless about the incentive programs offered by the NFAA for its shooters...OR...they simply don't figure it is worth their time to bother to mention them at all. I remember in the past that nearly every State Association I had belonged to had...a 20-Pin and Incentives Secretary...whose responsibility was to promote those incentives and make sure the people that earned them were made aware of them! Not so any more for several State Associations!
> Next comes the NFAA itself..from the top or near the top. I haven't heard about any membership drive campaign in years...like in so many years that I've lost count! I do remember State Associations sponsoring membership drives for the State and NFAA and giving some pretty nice awards to the person that brought in the most new members. That, too, has long since fallen by the wayside.
> The advertising for the National FIELD Archery Association has focused around the INDOOR events, such as the WAF Vegas, the Classic, The NFAA INDOOR Nationals, and of course Redding. The big push for the promotion of the NFAA Outdoor National FIELD Championships seems to be pretty much left to the host club.
> So, that being said...how many on here are aware of those Incentives? I won't list them all...but I will list those that really used to help keep FIELD shooters and BOWHUNTERS really interested in joining the NFAA and shooting the competitions, as in really interested and looking forward to trying to grasp these personal "achievement awards"...the shift today has become more towards "leader-board placement" and "money winnings" as opposed to PERSONAL achievement.
> 
> *20 pins*? Few bother to mention those to any newbie, and I'd also venture to guess local clubs and the State Association don't bother to advertise these or announce that this shoot is a 20 pin qualifed shoot? Most newbies I know aren't even aware of these until I tell them about them.
> _I can still remember the thrill and fun we had working on building our 20-pin chain; the most sought after was to get a 20 pin for the 80 yard walkup! Then, when 560's became popular; we'd only get the 20 pins if we shot a perfect half or perfect 560 so we could have the entire "tree" including the PERFECT PIN._ I haven't heard mention of the 20 pins in years. _How many of you actually have your 20 pin tree built for the field and hunter rounds? _
> *500 Club Certificate and Patch*? Same situation. If the SHOOTER doesn't ask for it, nobody mentions it or keeps track of those that have earned this award!
> *Order of Robin Hood Certificate*. Yet another award YOU have coming if you shoot a "Robin Hood" during a competition or NFAA league! Nope...nobody mentions this or keeps track of it either.
> *Order of the Bone*: Great award that is well earned. However so few know about it because nothing is said about it.
> *Art Young Small and Big Game Awards*: You got it. The NFAA is indeed a bowhunter oriented organization, but few know about these awards that any NFAA member can get. Nobody tells the newbies about these either!
> *NFAA League Score Achievement Patches*: Yet again, so few indoor leagues bother for NFAA sanction, passing up on the achievement patches for achieving scores in 10 point increments.
> *NFAA Perfect 300 Patch*. How many that shoot the NFAA Indoor Nationals and shoot a perfect 300 (or even in their NFAA State Indoor or any sanctioned NFAA shoot) bother to get this patch? Once again...not mentioned, promoted, or advertised.
> 
> There are more, but you get my point. This is why I get so upset with folks that say the NFAA has NOTHING to offer its members. People won't READ, we old farts that have been around awhile are dropping the ball, the CLUBS are dropping the ball, the State Associations are dropping the ball.
> 
> Check out the NFAA Manual and you'll find this...but unfortunately, the impetus for advertising this stuff has long since been put on the back burner!
> Does ASA or IBO offer stuff like this to their members? I don't think so.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


 well said


----------



## brtesite

archer_nm said:


> If your at the tournament then why would they need to be posted on AT, oh yea you did not go! If that would get folks to show up I would be the first to see it was done. I have been at this sport for over 35 years and have seen every excuse in the book for not going to the Field shoots and it comes down to not caring about the sport and there is no changes that we could make that would get some of you to show up. Shooters wanted the Nationals to be only 3 days, ok it was done, no change in numbers, then they wanted it to be in conjunction with weekends, still no change. The bottom line is YOU don't like field, at least as much as some of the rest of us. I will be putting together an agenda item that will take the NFAA back to days gone by and it will to once again have the Nationals a full 5 days M-f, numbers won't change but at least all of us will enjoy our rounds.


Bob, me thinks you must be kidding. Going back to a full 5 day Mon-fri shoot will surely kill what ever we have left. With the present 3-5 day , you can shoot all of the arrows you want . I think what the council has done with next years Nationals was a little crazy by putting the animal round on the last day with a 3-5 day tournament. I wrote my comments to you & the rest of the whole board, Pres. on down, along with my section directors never received any comment from any one. I think the MA councilman is supposed re visit this by direction of the section. As a 50yr lifer, I've seen a lot of what has happened with the NFAA.


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## field14

brtesite said:


> Bob, me thinks you must be kidding. Going back to a full 5 day Mon-fri shoot will surely kill what ever we have left. With the present 3-5 day , you can shoot all of the arrows you want . I think what the council has done with next years Nationals was a little crazy by putting the animal round on the last day with a 3-5 day tournament. I wrote my comments to you & the rest of the whole board, Pres. on down, along with my section directors never received any comment from any one. I think the MA councilman is supposed re visit this by direction of the section. As a 50yr lifer, I've seen a lot of what has happened with the NFAA.


Yes! Over the past 15 years or so (likely more), the MOST successful outdoor events, regardless of organization...have been the Friday-Sunday events, bar none, period!
ASA, IBO are Hugely successful with the Friday-Sunday events and continue to have fantastic turn outs for those events. I find it pretty danged enlightening when the say that "participation is down" and there are over 1,000 shooters or more at the particular event in question!

It is the "old school" that is so hung up on this gotta have FIVE full days of shooting, or it isn't an NFAA National Outdoor." Those same folks don't look at the fact that the average age of the competitors is going UP and with that, comes the FACT that many cannot muster FIVE full days of shooting in a row as a requirement to compete!
In addition, FIVE full days in a row is beyond many people's means for finances, vacation time, and travel time to and from. Most cannot afford to fly to an event like this; especially when there may be more than one shooter in the family that shoots. MOST are not willing to give up 5-9 days of their vacation time for ONE event either.

Those "old schoolers" have got to wake up and smell the roses and deal with the fact that people today just don't have that drive to do this. In addition, many are two income families or more, being forced to work two or more jobs to make ends meet. They aren't going to give up that much time to attend a FIVE day event; not in this day and age.

One would think that after all the huge successes of the Friday-Sunday events, people would wake up and see the light...but no; the old schoolers still want to keep doing the same mandatory FIVE days NFAA Outdoor Nationals over and over...and expect different results. 

Hasn't been working since the mid 1980's...and likely isn't going to work if the FIVE day event is forced again either.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## tmorelli

field14 said:


> Yes! Over the past 15 years or so (likely more), the MOST successful outdoor events, regardless of organization...have been the Friday-Sunday events, bar none, period!
> ASA, IBO are Hugely successful with the Friday-Sunday events and continue to have fantastic turn outs for those events. I find it pretty danged enlightening when the say that "participation is down" and there are over 1,000 shooters or more at the particular event in question!
> 
> It is the "old school" that is so hung up on this gotta have FIVE full days of shooting, or it isn't an NFAA National Outdoor." Those same folks don't look at the fact that the average age of the competitors is going UP and with that, comes the FACT that many cannot muster FIVE full days of shooting in a row as a requirement to compete!
> In addition, FIVE full days in a row is beyond many people's means for finances, vacation time, and travel time to and from. Most cannot afford to fly to an event like this; especially when there may be more than one shooter in the family that shoots. MOST are not willing to give up 5-9 days of their vacation time for ONE event either.
> 
> Those "old schoolers" have got to wake up and smell the roses and deal with the fact that people today just don't have that drive to do this. In addition, many are two income families or more, being forced to work two or more jobs to make ends meet. They aren't going to give up that much time to attend a FIVE day event; not in this day and age.
> 
> One would think that after all the huge successes of the Friday-Sunday events, people would wake up and see the light...but no; the old schoolers still want to keep doing the same mandatory FIVE days NFAA Outdoor Nationals over and over...and expect different results.
> 
> Hasn't been working since the mid 1980's...and likely isn't going to work if the FIVE day event is forced again either.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom, we found some common ground. 

I'm in complete agreement. I'm blessed with a good job and an accommodating wife and I can tell you that the pain v. gain calculation hinges for me on vacation time all too often. If I have to take more than 1-2 days of vacation or foot the bill for more than 3 hotel nights + travel.... I'm out. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## hdracer

We had 25 here in OH, DB. Down for the 40 or so a couple years ago. I hear of one or two more field courses being built in OH but my question is "where are the shooters?".


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## fanio

field14 said:


> ...
> I was the first fingers/recurved bow shooter in the State of Wyoming to shoot over 500 on a field or hunter round; it was that tough to get one back then; at least on the wild and hilly/windy courses in Wyoming, that is. I cherished that Patch and Certificate...and wouldn't you know...somewhere, somehow, they got lost in one of our many moves along with numerous chains of field and Hunter 20 pins, a perfect Animal round patch and a host of other things ...


Yes, those pins/awards meant something. My 560 pin (Animal round in the early 90s) is still one of my most treasured archery awards.


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## ThunderEagle

hdracer said:


> We had 25 here in OH, DB. Down for the 40 or so a couple years ago. I hear of one or two more field courses being built in OH but my question is "where are the shooters?".


Dunno, but the targets at Punderson are shot to hell and back, so somebody is slining the arrows into them.


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## field14

fanio said:


> Yes, those pins/awards meant something. My 560 pin (Animal round in the early 90s) is still one of my most treasured archery awards.


It is sad indeed that so few shooting today know about the existence of all those NFAA Achievement awards and certificates! WE have really dropped the ball with regard to this most important incentive to become and remain a member of the NFAA!

This system surely needs a shot in the arm and more exposure. It also needs to regain more importance instead of all the concentration on the leader boards and win, win, win at all costs. There is more to archery than winning and breaking world/NFAA records. Record setters are few and far between...but personal goals and achievements are priceless and most meaningful!


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## archer_nm

Mike what numbers are basing your comments on? If you take the last 5 day years listed and avg. it out you get an average of 438 shooters. Then average out the total of 3 day nationals you 381 shooters, not much of a difference. So why do you think it would hurt


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## nock tune

archer_nm said:


> Mike what numbers are basing your comments on? If you take the last 5 day years listed and avg. it out you get an average of 438 shooters. Then average out the total of 3 day nationals you 381 shooters, not much of a difference. So why do you think it would hurt


I agree the 3-5 is a bust, they get no extra shooters and there's less archers on the weekend. There was a poll taken at Watkens Glenn back when they first changed it an most still wanted the 5 day. Plus for travel and time off for us that work a 5 day mon-fri make's more sense. You have the weekend to get there an practice then the shoot and the weekend to get home with a day of rest before work on Monday.


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## field14

nock tune said:


> I agree the 3-5 is a bust, they get no extra shooters and there's less archers on the weekend. There was a poll taken at Watkens Glenn back when they first changed it an most still wanted the 5 day. Plus for travel and time off for us that work a 5 day mon-fri make's more sense. You have the weekend to get there an practice then the shoot and the weekend to get home with a day of rest before work on Monday.


The only problem with the above poll was that the only ones responding were those that were attending! It doesn't take into account the NFAA paid up members that couldn't attend a 5-day format, but might be able to attend a 3-5, or a 3-day format. So of course, the results of this poll are naturally going to favor the 5-day event!

The old die hards refuse to take into account that the most successful events on the planet...literally All of them, including the NFAA Redding Trail Shoot...are THREE DAY EVENTS...Friday-Sunday!!

The 5-day NFAA Outdoor Nationals is outdated; it hasn't worked for years...but they also keep trying a 3-day event for...ONE year, don't get turn out, so change it back, don't get turnout, so change to something else.

ASA, IBO, keep their 3-day Friday-Sunday formats and continue to have participation levels that make the NFAA turnouts paltry by comparison. the success of the ASA and IBO with regard to participation is irrefutable.

Many States have gone to ONE day State Field Championships and have had their participation levels climb to levels they haven't seen in years. Some other States, the die-hards keep demanding two day State Field events...and the participation levels are flat or declining.


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## brtesite

archer_nm said:


> Mike what numbers are basing your comments on? If you take the last 5 day years listed and avg. it out you get an average of 438 shooters. Then average out the total of 3 day nationals you 381 shooters, not much of a difference. So why do you think it would hurt


Bob, I'm not using any numbers.. The 3-5day is only designed to help out the local area. You will find that a lot of the older folks don't want a last man standing tournament . I know of three Le Pera's that would not been able to shoot last years National if it had not been for the 3-5 day due to prior .commitments. They were paying customers ,& they bought about $40.00 worth of 20 pins. But hey what the hell do I know .Maybe spending more than 25 years sitting in those NFAA meetings made me a little nuts. What are you going to do with the animal round on Sun for next year ,If any thing . 
Good luck with your agenda Item.


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## archer_nm

Not a thing, no mater what decision we make someone will complain and look above and Tom seems to think the Friday-Sunday will be the best of both worlds. I want to thank you for all of your service to the NFAA, as far as the agenda Item goes I properly won't submit it you might call it an idle threat.


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## hdracer

ThunderEagle said:


> Dunno, but the targets at Punderson are shot to hell and back, so somebody is slining the arrows into them.


I hear there a lot of shooters in that area. Doug Shiliga runs a FITA Field tournament out of Punderson. He's also one of the OAA Officers. The FITA Field has an unknown day followed by a known day. Rules are similar to NFAA but not exactly the same (no rangefinders, electronics, etc). I shoot it a couple years ago but like you need to travel from one corner of OH to the other.

Sorry you missed the OAA Field shoot this year. Everyone enjoyed the course, the weather held out and we had a great lunch. The only downside was the shotgun ranges were open, something I hope to remedy for next year.

There are damn few of us actually working on courses around the state and a low or zero turnout is very discouraging. I was happy 25 made there way to our club but would really like 50+ to show our Board of Directors there is a need for a 28 target course. Won't happen with a total of 29 shooters over 4 tournaments.


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## r49740

Going to 5 days Monday through Friday would be a mistake, and would only lower participation. Wed-Sun with 2 of the days optional gives everyone the ability to choose what days they can shoot, as well as only taking 1 day of vacation depending on travel compared to 5 days. And for those of us who like to shoot just for the enjoyment of shooting and the ability to keep trying to get better, enjoy the 5 days of shooting. Everyone can make their own choice with the current format.

And thanks for the work on the course Howard. Was in great shape, targets were great, and had a great time as always. You all are even getting better at keeping the sprinklers off for us.. although next in line will be the heater.


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## nock tune

Did'nt everone want to change the senior's to 50 to stay in line with the other Org's. Well does'nt the NAA shoot there National Tournement monday to friday? If the Nfaa wants to get more shooter to there tourney's then we need to go after thought shooters, not 3-D archers that don't like shooting a lot of arrows. Also when they changed the animal round to add a point they took away the climax of shooting it on the last day against your closest competiter and having a change to celebrate with the winners on Friday night!


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## CHPro

nock tune - Just an fyi, USAA (formerly NAA) now shoots their outdoor nationals as a 2-day, Thur/Fri. 3rd day, Sat. is an optional US Open head-to-head shoot-off tournament for those that competed during the nationals. Even less arrows shot than a 3-day NFAA Outdoor Natl event. Personally I don't think 2 days is the way to go either......

>>-------->


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## mag41vance

field14 said:


> It is sad indeed that so few shooting today know about the existence of all those NFAA Achievement awards and certificates! WE have really dropped the ball with regard to this most important incentive to become and remain a member of the NFAA!
> 
> This system surely needs a shot in the arm and more exposure. It also needs to regain more importance instead of all the concentration on the leader boards and win, win, win at all costs. There is more to archery than winning and breaking world/NFAA records. Record setters are few and far between...but personal goals and achievements are priceless and most meaningful!


Recognizing achievement is a huge motivator for many archers. Getting a plaque certificate, pin, or whatever is a motivator for many these days. Personally those things aren't my motivation, it's competing with the best that drives me. Winning by default or because the field is weak is what happens at local shoots and some state shoots. Shooting with the best requires travel and making it a budget item for most. 
I Agree as others have suggested, State Archery Organizations need to be more on the front lines of promotion in order to keep interest up. I shot at the VFAA State Open on Fathers Day weekend and had to leave before the second day awards / results. I still haven't seen the final results because they haven't been posted by the Host Club (Augusta Archers) or the VFAA.
People that show up and shoot follow their sport, but our sport doesn't always follow up with us. 
Just like everything else in Life; There are those in the trenches, and those that complacently participate.
Finding State Leaders with a passion for promotion of the sport is the key. 
That requires time.............time.............time...........! That's where the passion comes in.


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## hdracer

r49740 said:


> Going to 5 days Monday through Friday would be a mistake, and would only lower participation. Wed-Sun with 2 of the days optional gives everyone the ability to choose what days they can shoot, as well as only taking 1 day of vacation depending on travel compared to 5 days. And for those of us who like to shoot just for the enjoyment of shooting and the ability to keep trying to get better, enjoy the 5 days of shooting. Everyone can make their own choice with the current format.
> 
> *And thanks for the work on the course Howard. Was in great shape, targets were great, and had a great time as always. You all are even getting better at keeping the sprinklers off for us.. although next in line will be the heater*.


Your welcome. Yes, the timing of the rain couldn't have been better although the humidity did go up. I tried holding a shoot in April when it was cooler but you know how that turned out. Actually, my next and biggest challenge will be to have the shotgun ranges shutdown for the entire weekend...wish me luck...:wink:


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## hdracer

nock tune said:


> Did'nt everone want to change the senior's to 50 to stay in line with the other Org's. *Well does'nt the NAA shoot there National Tournement monday to friday?* If the Nfaa wants to get more shooter to there tourney's then we need to go after thought shooters, not 3-D archers that don't like shooting a lot of arrows. Also when they changed the animal round to add a point they took away the climax of shooting it on the last day against your closest competiter and having a change to celebrate with the winners on Friday night!


The Target Nationals are running Weds - Saturday this year (July 10-14). Practice is on Tuesday. They've been adjusting is as it evolves. The number I heard was somewhere in the neighborhood of 675 registered archers...


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## brtesite

archer_nm said:


> Not a thing, no mater what decision we make someone will complain and look above and Tom seems to think the Friday-Sunday will be the best of both worlds. I want to thank you for all of your service to the NFAA, as far as the agenda Item goes I properly won't submit it you might call it an idle threat.


Bob, You are correct that you can't please every one, however what ever decision that are made, should have a rationale attached to it. The only one that I can see about it , is that it is a shorter day on Sun. By doing that , you negate every thing that the 3-5 day was designed for. There is more logical rationale for the 3-5 day than for ending on sun. As I said before, that i had sent this concern to the whole board & section directors with not one response. 
Oh well C'est la vie


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## field14

One more added benefit to being an NFAA member that is rarely, if ever spoken about!

Did you know that your NFAA membership carries with it a liability insurance policy? Yep. This "used to be" on the back of your NFAA membership card and explicitly mentioned, I think, a $10,000 liability insurance for you in the event that a landowner had a claim against you for "property damage."
I have, over the many years, used this as an aid to getting permission to hunt on private property in Wyoming, California, Ohio, Iowa, and New York State. Seems that once I showed the landowner that I was a responsible member of an archery organization and also had insurance, getting onto their land was a cinch! I have NEVER been turned down to hunt on private property after I have showed the land owner my NFAA card!!

I cannot find the information on the amount of the policy, but i know it is there:
Here is a quote from the NFAA Constitution and By-Laws:
Page 25 under Fees and Dues. I'm pretty certain that the liability insurance applies to ALL paid up NFAA members:

"Bowhunter dues:
The yearly NFAA Bowhunter membership dues shall be $3
5.00 with $5.00 deposited in the Bowhunter Defense fund, $5.00 returned to the State Association, and $5.00 to the NFAA general
fund for administration. The balance will be applied for magazine subscription *and individual
liability insurance.* Additional family membership may be added for $5.00 per year
per person."

Just one more benefit to ALL NFAA members, and one that really helps out a bow hunter to help get onto private property to hunt or fish!


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## aread

tmorelli said:


> I've thought about this one quite a bit since I'm a member at the club that has the only field course in OK ....


I'm not going to read the whole thread, but this might be a clue to why you have a low turnout at field event, even for the state championship.

JMHO,
Allen


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## BigGobbler

I shot my first field for score and had a blast. I shot the Great Lakes Sectional and thought it was ran pretty good. A few quiks but very good. I am a 3D shooter and love to fling em. I would rather shoot 90 arrow etc than drive hours away and spend tons of money on gas and shoot 40 arrows plus warm ups. I do agree with who ever posted about less field courses. Indiana seems to be pretty week on getting things rolling when it comes to field. I help mantain our local range and it alot of work. We could talk all day and all night and there is alot of things that can be done but a good start would be encourage each person shooting to try to bring some one new into the sport. I have a few people that have helped me at my club return the favor.


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## BigGobbler

Just a thought. More one day or two or three day events much easier to get of one to three days than five.


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## carlosii

Brown Hornet said:


> I'm not reading this whole ridiculous thing....just putting it out there at the start.
> 
> Sorry but I'm gonna call BULL POO.....that's just an excuse. Nobody is not shooting because they have to join both. If that's the reason they give the the statement above in caps.
> 
> 1st off you can shoot as a guest....I know I have shot in md numerous times as a guest.
> 
> 2nd most of your shooters should already been joined up....at least you would think so since you have such good indoor turnouts for states and what not. Ooooppppssss
> 
> 3rd the dues to join the NFAA in your state are 15 freaking dollars.....so if you think anyone is gonna believe the I'm not shooting cus I gotta join and I'm not paying money or can't afford it when I have a $1000-$2000 setup....
> 
> 4th to join the NFAA it's $35....big deal....either support the org or don't play THEIR game.
> 
> What do you mean I have to pay to play your golf course? What I can't fish in your tournament without paying?
> 
> So basically what it boils down to is not supporting your state archery...not being to cheap or having poor turnouts because someone has to join. That's just a flat out excuse why they didn't shoot....and an easier one then I can't shoot that far or it's too many arrows or whatever the standard weak ones are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


thanks, Hornet. i used the same logic on the nay-sayers who balk at shooting the new Regions tournaments.

i pay $60 a year to belong to our state NFAA affiliate and the national. ot an over 70 age shooter on a fixed income, that's a fair amount. i might get to shoot one or two of the state events. so what? i do my best to show up and demonstrate my support, but distance and time sometimes work against that. i believe paying my dues, and showing up when i can, demonstrate my support for the sport.

lay back and do nothing if you want to...but don't pull the cryin' towel out when the sport shrivels up in your back yard.


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## treeman65

After shooting this weekends psaa regional championship I'm very discussed with psaa. I can see why numbers are low starting off with lack of communication if any. There website is terrible plus does not give the correct info
We drove 2 1/2 hrs left house at 530 am follow the directions off the website but can't find the club. So I call and the the lady says that address is to our house and the shoot is not till 1. Well I look up psaa website I had the correct address and time
So we drive another hour to see my son and then drive hour back


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## carlosii

we used to have several field ranges within an hours drive back in the late 50's. now there are none.


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## carlosii

treeman65 said:


> After shooting this weekends psaa regional championship I'm very discussed with psaa. I can see why numbers are low starting off with lack of communication if any. There website is terrible plus does not give the correct info
> We drove 2 1/2 hrs left house at 530 am follow the directions off the website but can't find the club. So I call and the the lady says that address is to our house and the shoot is not till 1. Well I look up psaa website I had the correct address and time
> So we drive another hour to see my son and then drive hour back


that is truly a bummer.


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## field14

carlosii said:


> thanks, Hornet. i used the same logic on the nay-sayers who balk at shooting the new Regions tournaments.
> 
> i pay $60 a year to belong to our state NFAA affiliate and the national. ot an over 70 age shooter on a fixed income, that's a fair amount. i might get to shoot one or two of the state events. so what? i do my best to show up and demonstrate my support, but distance and time sometimes work against that. i believe paying my dues, and showing up when i can, demonstrate my support for the sport.
> 
> lay back and do nothing if you want to...but don't pull the cryin' towel out when the sport shrivels up in your back yard.


Today's society is all hooked upon getting something for nothing and they continue to expect to just show up on the doorstep, walk in, drink everyone else's beer, scarf up the food, and leave; all for FREE, and on somebody else's dime.
Look at it, getting to where there are more on the dole than working...and they still get the benefits. Same with archery..."they", let's call them FREELOADERS (don't like the term, then don't read on!) want to reap all the benefits of paying members, with regard to awards, palmarès building, bragging rights to their friends and not pay for it. They want to be able to get a State Championship Patch and certificate and any other award, but not belong to either the State or National Organization that is sanctioning the event.
FREELOADERS, I say. 
Now that being said, it has been mentioned that there is a guest class for those that aren't members of the Associations, and that is where they belong when it comes to sanctioned events! IF the host club chooses to offer awards to those "guests" (the guests aren't whining and crying about having to join, so they are guests, not "Freeloaders") then that is just fine, since the paid association members aren't eligible for the guest awards.
I'm totally opposed to non association members (State and Nationals) competing for the same awards and 'palmarès entry' as those that have paid their association dues. Either put up and pay up, or shut up. Shoot the guest class.
It is one thing to allow non-members to compete for the same awards as a paid up member for a local shoot (and the number of times a non-member does that should be limited to ONCE), but never should it be allowed at a State Sanctioned event, or for a Sectional and especially not a National event.
There are "open" tournaments around that allow this, and that is just fine, since those are announced and advertised as "open" shoots.

One way local clubs can nip "freeloading" in the bud is to charge 1.5 times or even double on the registration fees as opposed to a person that can present a club card or a National/State organization member ship card. That meaning that if you go to a club shoot and you are a member of any archery organization such as another club, ASA, IBO, NFAA, NAA/WAF, then you pay the "normal" registration fee for that local shoot. If you cannot show any affiliation with a local club, ASA, IBO, NFAA, NAA/WAF...then you pay the extra registration fee. So if it is $10 for a "member", it is either $15 or $20 for a 'non-member.' Then you can shoot for the awards the same as everyone else. Too many back yarders come out of the woodwork, shoot up the targets, are the first to whine and cry about this or that, offer nothing in the way of help, and then go home. So if they have to pay extra to shoot, perhaps they'll see the light and join up with the local club or an recognized association because the extra fee, if they continue to pay it will cost more in the long run than just joining up in the first place.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## ThunderEagle

So, we've talked about a lot of things in this thread and others. I was at a Field/Hunter round this weekend, local shoot, no NFAA affiliation or anything. We were talking about it, they said this is their 3rd year having the course in at the club, but attendance is dropping. I got the impression they were going to do them again next year, as the organizer said he was going to make sure they were not having the high power rifle matches on the same day again (interesting in the woods...).

Regardless, what we couldn't understand was why target archers don't want to shoot this game? There is all the 5-3 face we talked about here, the lack of promotion of the individual awards, etc, but there has to be a reason for this? I mean, the shop I shoot league at, has 3 nights a week in the winter (plus 2 youth leagues on Saturdays), that are pretty dang full. Get plenty of people show up to pot shoots. Other local clubs/shops get great turn out for indoor tournaments.

Fine, you want to make the argument about 3-D vs Field, ok, whatever, but seriously, other than the yardage judging, how is Field not more appealing to an archer? 30-40 shots vs 56 or 112. I don't know about you guys, but I just love to shoot my bow, I think most archers, especially ones that compete in any kind of tournament do. It is never an issue for 60 shots for a 300 round.

Earlier in this thread, there were listed a lot of excuses for not shooting field, but I guess I just don't understand.


----------



## Rolo

ThunderEagle said:


> So, we've talked about a lot of things in this thread and others. I was at a Field/Hunter round this weekend, local shoot, no NFAA affiliation or anything. We were talking about it, they said this is their 3rd year having the course in at the club, but attendance is dropping. I got the impression they were going to do them again next year, as the organizer said he was going to make sure they were not having the high power rifle matches on the same day again (interesting in the woods...).
> 
> Regardless, what we couldn't understand was why target archers don't want to shoot this game? There is all the 5-3 face we talked about here, the lack of promotion of the individual awards, etc, but there has to be a reason for this? I mean, the shop I shoot league at, has 3 nights a week in the winter (plus 2 youth leagues on Saturdays), that are pretty dang full. Get plenty of people show up to pot shoots. Other local clubs/shops get great turn out for indoor tournaments.
> 
> Fine, you want to make the argument about 3-D vs Field, ok, whatever, but seriously, other than the yardage judging, how is Field not more appealing to an archer? 30-40 shots vs 56 or 112. I don't know about you guys, but I just love to shoot my bow, I think most archers, especially ones that compete in any kind of tournament do. It is never an issue for 60 shots for a 300 round.
> 
> Earlier in this thread, there were listed a lot of excuses for not shooting field, but I guess I just don't understand.


In my little corner of the world, it's all about timing and scheduling. Summer just ain't 'convenient' for lots of folks for one reason or another. 3-D participation also wanes in the summer months. Too much other things to do, vacations, and getting ready for hunting season.


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## chasemukluk

Hello all,
I have read most of this thread, but not all of it. I am just now becoming interested in field archery and the NFAA. I have been shooting 3d since I was 12, and gave it up for awhile while I was in college. Since graduating, I have been shooting a lot more over the last 6 years(I am 30 now). In fact, I lived in AZ for a year. There were two ranges I would go to and they both had field ranges. I would just hike around and shoot the targets for fun. I had no idea they actually had a game for them. I just thought they were out there to get all the elk and mule deer hunters some long range practice in hunting like conditions. 

I think a good way to promote your game is to go to 3d shoots and talk about how much fun field archery is. I met a guy (JBHoyt, great shooter) at a 3d and he talked about how much fun he has shooting the field rounds. I met another guy at Chicago Bowhunters Club during another 3d and he also raved about how much fun the field round is. These two interactions made me come home and research it. Then, I went out and bought a nice adjustable sight so I could shoot field more confidently. So, my plans are to shoot a field round or two this summer, and then get more involved next year. I usually go to 3d shoots alone and ask to join a group. I swear, almost every single time people ask what those bales are for. They just think they are for practice. I shot with a guy a couple weeks ago and he had a whole set up. Long stabs, target sight, etc...he even didn't know what the bales were for. 

I think when many people think of archery, they think of hunting. Many people do not even know about the target rounds that are available to shoot. I am lucky though, I have at least 3 good clubs that have Field rounds within 45 minutes of my door. Joliet Archers, Chicago Bowhunters and Kishwaukee Archers. On most weekends, I can go to one of these ranges to shoot a field round. However, they all also host 3d shoots so I have been shooting them a lot. 

So, once I become a member and shoot some rounds. I know I will love it by the way. I will go to 3d shoots to promote it! Now, I just need to learn the lingo and all the different shots.

Best,
Chase


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## mag41vance

Daniel Boone said:


> Once again the turnout for state field event was down. 30 archers here in Oklahoma.
> 
> 
> Requiring a state membership and NFAA membership makes this expensive for average archer.
> 
> Hope the 900 Target State shoot gets more turnout.


Also a poor turn out for the VFAA State Closed

12 total archers. 
Part of the issue is timing. Very busy time of year for many. I had to travel back and forth both days due to important Family events. 4-1/2 hours on the road each day.

Field needs some sort of a booster-shot.


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## itbeso

Brown Hornet said:


> I'm not reading this whole ridiculous thing....just putting it out there at the start.
> 
> Sorry but I'm gonna call BULL POO.....that's just an excuse. Nobody is not shooting because they have to join both. If that's the reason they give the the statement above in caps.
> 
> 1st off you can shoot as a guest....I know I have shot in md numerous times as a guest.
> 
> 2nd most of your shooters should already been joined up....at least you would think so since you have such good indoor turnouts for states and what not. Ooooppppssss
> 
> 3rd the dues to join the NFAA in your state are 15 freaking dollars.....so if you think anyone is gonna believe the I'm not shooting cus I gotta join and I'm not paying money or can't afford it when I have a $1000-$2000 setup....
> 
> 4th to join the NFAA it's $35....big deal....either support the org or don't play THEIR game.
> 
> What do you mean I have to pay to play your golf course? What I can't fish in your tournament without paying?
> 
> So basically what it boils down to is not supporting your state archery...not being to cheap or having poor turnouts because someone has to join. That's just a flat out excuse why they didn't shoot....and an easier one then I can't shoot that far or it's too many arrows or whatever the standard weak ones are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hornet, you jump around so fast it's hard to follow you but upon rereading you post, you hit the nail on the head on every point you made.


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## itbeso

field14 said:


> Today's society is all hooked upon getting something for nothing and they continue to expect to just show up on the doorstep, walk in, drink everyone else's beer, scarf up the food, and leave; all for FREE, and on somebody else's dime.
> Look at it, getting to where there are more on the dole than working...and they still get the benefits. Same with archery..."they", let's call them FREELOADERS (don't like the term, then don't read on!) want to reap all the benefits of paying members, with regard to awards, palmarès building, bragging rights to their friends and not pay for it. They want to be able to get a State Championship Patch and certificate and any other award, but not belong to either the State or National Organization that is sanctioning the event.
> FREELOADERS, I say.
> Now that being said, it has been mentioned that there is a guest class for those that aren't members of the Associations, and that is where they belong when it comes to sanctioned events! IF the host club chooses to offer awards to those "guests" (the guests aren't whining and crying about having to join, so they are guests, not "Freeloaders") then that is just fine, since the paid association members aren't eligible for the guest awards.
> I'm totally opposed to non association members (State and Nationals) competing for the same awards and 'palmarès entry' as those that have paid their association dues. Either put up and pay up, or shut up. Shoot the guest class.
> It is one thing to allow non-members to compete for the same awards as a paid up member for a local shoot (and the number of times a non-member does that should be limited to ONCE), but never should it be allowed at a State Sanctioned event, or for a Sectional and especially not a National event.
> There are "open" tournaments around that allow this, and that is just fine, since those are announced and advertised as "open" shoots.
> 
> One way local clubs can nip "freeloading" in the bud is to charge 1.5 times or even double on the registration fees as opposed to a person that can present a club card or a National/State organization member ship card. That meaning that if you go to a club shoot and you are a member of any archery organization such as another club, ASA, IBO, NFAA, NAA/WAF, then you pay the "normal" registration fee for that local shoot. If you cannot show any affiliation with a local club, ASA, IBO, NFAA, NAA/WAF...then you pay the extra registration fee. So if it is $10 for a "member", it is either $15 or $20 for a 'non-member.' Then you can shoot for the awards the same as everyone else. Too many back yarders come out of the woodwork, shoot up the targets, are the first to whine and cry about this or that, offer nothing in the way of help, and then go home. So if they have to pay extra to shoot, perhaps they'll see the light and join up with the local club or an recognized association because the extra fee, if they continue to pay it will cost more in the long run than just joining up in the first place.
> field14 (Tom D.)


Standard operating procedure in California. Non members pay more and shoot in guest class for no awards.


----------



## wa-prez

r49740 said:


> Going to 5 days Monday through Friday would be a mistake, and would only lower participation. Wed-Sun with 2 of the days optional gives everyone the ability to choose what days they can shoot, as well as only taking 1 day of vacation depending on travel compared to 5 days. And for those of us who like to shoot just for the enjoyment of shooting and the ability to keep trying to get better, enjoy the 5 days of shooting. Everyone can make their own choice with the current format.


Problem with the 3-day / 5-day Wednesday through Sunday as they did this year (and have scheduled for next year) is that with the only Animal round offered on Sunday, EVERYONE must shoot Sunday. That might be nice in terms of people being around for the awards, and building suspense for the Pro division, BUT unless you live REALLY close it is hard to shoot on Sunday and be home in time to work on Monday. So you'll need to take AT LEAST three days off work (Thursday to travel, Friday for the Field, and Monday to get home). Not much savings over Monday-Friday shooting. AND, I've talked to people whose company policies don't allow them to take time off it two different weeks. One day OK, one week OK, but not a day in two different weeks.


----------



## Ultra Limited

field14 said:


> Yep, I started NFAA competition way back with the dinosaurs, and the 20 pin program and the others were there then. The 20 pin program back then, however, was WAY different. In order to qualify to start your 20 pins for that tournament, you had to first shoot a "20" on an 18 inch target face or larger and THEN you started your 20 pin collection for the day! So, we would bust butt to try to get a "20" on the 35 or 36 fan, the 45 yarder, or the 45 walk up, or the 50...because if we didn't do that first, then we couldn't get any 20 pins for that outing. You could either get a "perfect" pin for shooting a perfect 280 half, OR you could get it by having ALL of the 14 "20 pins" for an entire unit of Hunter or Field targets. The Hunter pins were distinctly different from the Field Round 20 pins, too. What an incentive and what fun to go after those things.
> Now, however, all you gotta do is shoot a "20" on any target and you can get the pin for it, which is fine; but it was more fun to have to qualify to start the string first.
> I was the first fingers/recurved bow shooter in the State of Wyoming to shoot over 500 on a field or hunter round; it was that tough to get one back then; at least on the wild and hilly/windy courses in Wyoming, that is. I cherished that Patch and Certificate...and wouldn't you know...somewhere, somehow, they got lost in one of our many moves along with numerous chains of field and Hunter 20 pins, a perfect Animal round patch and a host of other things that went into la-la land in a lost box on one of the moves. GRRRRRRRR. I have some if the incomplete 20 pin strings.
> Some States even had their own version of the field and Hunter 20 pins, too. Ohio used to do this and I have some of those; but again the full strings with the perfect pins attached...were in that same box of lost items. GRRRRRR.
> 
> You wouldn't believe the knick-knacks or bric-a-brac shooters came up with to show off their wares and accomplishments. Derby hats with their pins on them; some wore shooting vests complete with patches from the clubs where they had shot. Championship patches, archery related patches, and on and on. People wore them with pride...and nobody thought that the person wearing those was "conceited".
> *Some Clubs would charter buses to go to field shoots and/or novelty shoots*, and everyone going would wear their club shirts or at least their club patch so everyone knew where they were from.
> Back then, it wasn't about winning MONEY or amateurs expecting to get MONEY for their efforts; it was for the fun and of course the added incentive of the pins, patches, progressive patches and the like just added to the fun of it all! Don't seem to have any emphasis or concentration on the incentives these days....too much emphasis about winning something and trying to get money for it, too.
> 
> Another thing that has fallen by the wayside seems to be the 3-5-7 rule for getting an award. Unless there were at least 3 persons in your shooting division/class...NO AWARD was given. Had to have at least 5 to "pay" first and second place awards, and 7 or more to pay 3 places on awards. Now...just show up and shoot and if you are the only one...you still get an award for beating....'Yourself'. NOW...I will say that with all the classes and divisions, an NFAA club could go bankrupt if they tried to stock all the awards for all of the divisions, classes, and styles of shooting...it is gotten way too far out of hand.



I enjoyed reading this ^, thanks! I used to compete in field in Va Beach back around 1985. Maintained one of the lanes on the course. Still remember getting this...


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## SonnyThomas

Got started on the other Post of Field. Lot's of info in both. But wondering, should states be revamped? I mean, the biggest expense our State NFAA chapter has in our Secretary, Something of or nearing $5,000.00 per year. Granted, is bonded, intelligent, works long hours and works well with the Board of Directors and the Monthly Bulletin puts out every month on time. On the other hand, our ASA Director runs the whole state for just what he or she is allowed through that in the Director's Guide, free parking, free practice, etc, ect...

Stop pushing 3D? Surely these people are a "brick short of a full load." 3D is about the only thing that supports local clubs.... 20 or 25 shooting Field sure isn't...

Brown Hornet broke down NFAA dues. Sorry, this is wrong. You pay both or you're not eligible for awards. As such the State of Illinois is a total of $60 at my last knowing of. You can pay X amount and be listed as Bowhunter and, I guess, recieve any benefits or awards within Bowhunter. So $60 to begin with, we then pay, I'm hearing, $30 for each Championship. Unknown for Spring Openers (usually Field), Indoor Aggregates (combined indoor 5 spot/Vegas scores) and Rendezvouses. They were $10 and/or $12.50 each.
Aggregate Awards for Indoors are free. Aggregates for Outdoors require a fee. 

So NFAA dues pay for what? I ask because our State then gets a percentage of every IAA sanctioned event plus the hosting club has to pay for all awards. Of last year the IAA was raffling off firearms to stay afloat. And somewhere along the line Constitutional rules were bypassed so that one club "bought" Field Championship through donating all intake to the IAA to keep the IAA afloat. This has ceased though. Don't know all the details, so perhaps it was done properly and for some good. But then the clubs that had/has Field ranges????

Awards. Field14 did hit on something. In our state we have to pay for them. I had to apply for my 500 Patch and pay for it. 20 pins; Other than the Starter Pin for both Field and Hunter I had to pay for each add-on (bar). Some 20 pins missing because they weren't available.

Still of Awards; Of the IAA the Flight system exists. Flight C gets the same medals that Championship Flight gets. It serves a purpose, I guess, but last place in Championship Flight gets nothing and some Flight C or D gets a medal for 50 points less?

Field14 pointed out clubs being Not-For-Profit and perhaps breaking the law. Our club goes through a bank and all records available to the State. I understand we are to be contacted if even nearing too much money on-hand. I would advise clubs to contact their bank and find what it applical to their club. Yearly expenditures of such degree, having $5,000.00 in the bank would not be in violation. Figure one order of replacement centers or 3D targets could reduce $5,000.00 pretty damned fast. ??? Range of McKenzies, 20 targets, now at $4,000.00. 

Of the picture; That with a red line is what I recieved for taking Champion in Field/Hunter. That of the lime green is what I had to pay for, 500 Patch and 20 pins. That of the pink dots, IAA medals, was won at entry fees of $10 to $25. 
All other medals, club 3Ds, not designated were of fees of $8 to $10. The center trophy was of a 50 target 3D with entry fee of $12.50 - no membership of any kind required. I have a bunch more standups ranging up to 17" tall and quite nice - all through entry fees of $8 to $10. Granted, clubs usually only award the top 3 places per class.... BUT! There is no doubt of who won what.

DB, want to know what's really disappointing? Show up at a Field event and you're the only one there. Yep, showed up a sanctioned Spring Opener and I was the only one. Me, the club president and one person on vacation just wanting a place to shoot.


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## carlosii

just my humble opinion, but its really difficult to even find out when and where a field shoot is taking place. here's a tip...while the web site is 3Dshoots.com it does provide for the posting of shoots of any kind, including field. the only field shoots i've ever found on there are the ones being put on by the white river bowhunters down at bedford, indiana and a few in illinois.

perhaps if folks knew about the shoots they might decide to stick a toe in the water.


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## brtesite

wa-prez said:


> Problem with the 3-day / 5-day Wednesday through Sunday as they did this year (and have scheduled for next year) is that with the only Animal round offered on Sunday, EVERYONE must shoot Sunday. That might be nice in terms of people being around for the awards, and building suspense for the Pro division, BUT unless you live REALLY close it is hard to shoot on Sunday and be home in time to work on Monday. So you'll need to take AT LEAST three days off work (Thursday to travel, Friday for the Field, and Monday to get home). Not much savings over Monday-Friday shooting. AND, I've talked to people whose company policies don't allow them to take time off it two different weeks. One day OK, one week OK, but not a day in two different weeks.


 Then put the animal round back to Fri as it was originally designed


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## FS560

Comprehensive agenda item coming in September.


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## bigHUN

Ontario Field Championship....about 30 people last weekend..(FYI Ontario is at least as "big" as 3 states South)..me 53 years shooting in Masters, have nobody to compete with, next year may have to go to open class?


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> Comprehensive agenda item coming in September.


 Maybe you should start politicking now


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## archer_nm

:set1_signs009: what Mike said


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## itbeso

FS560 said:


> Comprehensive agenda item coming in September.


Give us a hint.


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## archer_nm

Jim, this is a great place to unveil the agenda item you are talking about, because some Directors will not even talk to their state members, at least they can put pressure on them if they know about it.


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## itbeso

archer_nm said:


> Jim, this is a great place to unveil the agenda item you are talking about, because some Directors will not even talk to their state members, at least they can put pressure on them if they know about it.


I'm sure that whatever it is , it will be battered about pretty good on here, but maybe Jim can get a good perspective on how it will fare down the road, even make some tweeks if he is so inclined.


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## archer_nm

Good point Ben


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## FS560

I just arrived in Queens today for a minimum of 60 days, maybe until Christmas. I plan to work on it this Sunday.

Fairly simple, the sequence of rounds and the 5/3 provision should be in the main part of the bylaws, not the policy, and not available to change at the pleasure of the cabinet as was done for this year and next. The cabinet effectively abrogated the 5/3 provision by making the animal round on Sunday.

Whether a M-F, W-S, or even a T-S schedule, the animal round would always be the middle day and our premier namesake round, field, will always be the last day. Placing it in the main body and not available for the cabinet to alter will require careful wording.

The reason I said comprehensive is because it requires deletions of language in one place and insertion of language in another, possibly in more than one place.

Purportedly, the reason for the animal round being Sunday is so that people can leave earlier and be home Sunday. I think that was really for the officials. The 5/3 allows a shooter to not shoot on Sunday if they want to go home.


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## archer_nm

Jim, you might want to check the minutes from this years Directors meeting and you will see that it was the Directors that voted for the animal round to be shot the last day of the tournament. As it is now in the C&B, so please don't blame the Council


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## brtesite

archer_nm said:


> Jim, you might want to check the minutes from this years Directors meeting and you will see that it was the Directors that voted for the animal round to be shot the last day of the tournament. As it is now in the C&B, so please don't blame the Council


 Bob you are correct, but unfortunately the minutes do not have any of the arguments or rational as to why sun was chosen. Not saying it was the wishes of the council, but there is a lot dialog between the council & the sections at their section meetings . I know that there was some scuttlebutt at Mechanicsburgh last year about how long it took to give out the awards on Sun. because of the F. or H. round, don't remember which, & if the animal round would have been shot, the day would have been shorter

I do agree that if you ever go to a 3 day national , then the animal should be on the last day. NoW that makes sense, not what was done this year. 
I probably was the main driving force for the 5/3 day format. ASk Tim. It was well thought out to be able to accommodate every one . It worked. The change had no rhyme or reason at all. It made the preceding days have no structure. Hopefully Jim will be able to get things rectified.

Since I have the floor, I 'll re iterate what I have said before about the pro's being treated differently than the rest of the rank & file. They are the best shooters & I admire them, but they are part of the NFAA & they should be able to take advantage of the rules & bylaws of the constitution. There may have been some that wished they could have taken advantage of the 5/3 format. It was done to try to control one or two people. The directors who voted for them to shoot only the last 3days did not do their job or didn't understand what their job was. The pros are nothing more than a div of the NFAA ,Just like BB or FS. & should be treated as such. There was a time that there was an animosity between the pros & the Joes. What we did was on the first day of the nationals, the Joe's shoot with a pro. It was well received . Don't know why it went away, but maybe it should come back. 

Just my $2.00 inflation you know


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> I just arrived in Queens today for a minimum of 60 days, maybe until Christmas. I plan to work on it this Sunday.
> 
> Fairly simple, the sequence of rounds and the 5/3 provision should be in the main part of the bylaws, not the policy, and not available to change at the pleasure of the cabinet as was done for this year and next. The cabinet effectively abrogated the 5/3 provision by making the animal round on Sunday.
> 
> Whether a M-F, W-S, or even a T-S schedule, the animal round would always be the middle day and our premier namesake round, field, will always be the last day. Placing it in the main body and not available for the cabinet to alter will require careful wording.
> 
> The reason I said comprehensive is because it requires deletions of language in one place and insertion of language in another, possibly in more than one place.
> 
> Purportedly, the reason for the animal round being Sunday is so that people can leave earlier and be home Sunday. I think that was really for the officials. The 5/3 allows a shooter to not shoot on Sunday if they want to go home.


 good luck, hopefully the directors will get to see sunlight & get it changed


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## FS560

Maybe I am the only crazy person here, but the directors changed the pros to shoot for score the last three days with the animal round being shot by the pros on Sunday.

With the pros required to shoot F,S,S, the 5/3 was omitted for them, in any other context.

The directors did not change all others to a Sunday animal round. The cabinet, at a later planning meeting, changed all the non-pros to shoot the animal on Sunday to be in concert with the pros. There would have been no difficulty with non-pros (an overwhelming majority of total attendance) shooting the animal round on Friday.

Where the hell is it said that the overwhelming majority have to be in concert with a few pros anyway? I think it was a power grab and ursurping of authority by the cabinet.

Furthermore, I believe my use of the word cabinet is correct.


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## archer_nm

Jim with the number of ranges it would have been hard to give the Pro's their own range, as I am sure that there were others on the same range. Do you know how many shooters left on Sat, there was only 2 and one of them I know had no intentions of shooting on Sunday. Turn out for Darrington was normal so I don't think that the Sunday animal round had an affect on anything, I disagree with your opinion of the Power grab but your entitled to it.


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## FS560

Bob, I think you are missing my point about the Friday/Sunday animal. The animal on Sunday provides virtually no flexibility under the 5/3 other than to shoot a standard five day or a three day weekend shoot.

The animal on Friday provides the flexibility of several different three day schedules. At Darrington, it was 291 non-pros potentially restricted for the benefit of 35 pros.

Whether or not the 5/3 was previously or would be fully utilized is another discussion under the context of the nationals being a traditional five day or just a three day event.


----------



## brtesite

archer_nm said:


> Jim with the number of ranges it would have been hard to give the Pro's their own range, as I am sure that there were others on the same range. Do you know how many shooters left on Sat, there was only 2 and one of them I know had no intentions of shooting on Sunday. Turn out for Darrington was normal so I don't think that the Sunday animal round had an affect on anything, I disagree with your opinion of the Power grab but your entitled to it.


Bob, I don't know how many ranges there were at "D", & having the animal on fri may not have been feasible, But in your other post, you said the directors put the animal round on sun & have the pros shoot only 3 days. Unless the the council is in concert with the results of these two items, did you or any other councilman voice any opinion on the floor to explain the error of their ways if you thought them wrong? You do know that you can get the floor any time you wish just by having a director relinquish his time to you. As councilman , I did it many times 
I have always thought it was the councils job to guide the directors in the ways of the NFAA since they are more in tune with the day to day operations.


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## TNMAN

Adopting Pro-1 and then moving the animal round for everyone seems to be pushing us very hard toward a 3 day event.


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> Bob, I think you are missing my point about the Friday/Sunday animal. The animal on Sunday provides virtually no flexibility under the 5/3 other than to shoot a standard five day or a three day weekend shoot.
> 
> The animal on Friday provides the flexibility of several different three day schedules. At Darrington, it was 291 non-pros potentially restricted for the benefit of 35 pros.
> 
> Whether or not the 5/3 was previously or would be fully utilized is another discussion under the context of the nationals being a traditional five day or just a three day event.


 'it is amazing how something so simple as a 5/3 can get so screwed up. as was told to me ,there were no dissenting votes on either issue.


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## FS560

TNMAN said:


> Adopting Pro-1 and then moving the animal round for everyone seems to be pushing us very hard toward a 3 day event.


bingo


----------



## FS560

brtesite said:


> 'it is amazing how something so simple as a 5/3 can get so screwed up. as was told to me ,there were no dissenting votes on either issue.


If I had been there instead of on a cruize with my wife, there would have been at least one dissenting vote.

Mid-Atlantic directors instructed our cabinet member to re-visit the Sunday animal at the most recent planning meeting. It was 2 votes for Friday and 4 votes for keeping it on Sunday with 2 cabinet members absent.

I think it is insane for the pros to shoot any different format than the remaining overwhelming majority of members paying the bills. NFAA cannot exist on the pros alone and the pros cannot exist without the remaining majority.


----------



## brtesite

FS560 said:


> If I had been there instead of on a cruize with my wife, there would have been at least one dissenting vote.
> 
> Mid-Atlantic directors instructed our cabinet member to re-visit the Sunday animal at the most recent planning meeting. It was 2 votes for Friday and 4 votes for keeping it on Sunday with 2 cabinet members absent.
> 
> I think it is insane for the pros to shoot any different format than the remaining overwhelming majority of members paying the bills. NFAA cannot exist on the pros alone and the pros cannot exist without the remaining majority.


guess your replacement didn't talk to you 

we had taken care of the situation many years ago when the pros shot the x-pert round instead of the animals. guess that went by the way side.


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## FS560

No he did not but he was not obligated to. However, he is a member and a pro, and since he was my alternate, I defend his right to vote as he saw best, especially since we had no direct input on that issue from other interested members.


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## brtesite

best for who?
No direct interest from the 5 member board that controls all of Va. or of the VBA members that you are supposed to represent.


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## FS560

We are not supposed to and we do not represent VBA members. Only VFAA.


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## wa-prez

brtesite said:


> I don't know how many ranges there were at "D", & having the animal on fri may not have been feasible.


Darrington has five ranges (as I think that is REQUIRED for a National bid). In fact, they organized the shooters into groups in such a way that one of the ranges was left "fallow" each day.

So it WOULD have been possible to set up 4 ranges with Field on Wednesday, 4 ranges of Hunter on Thursday, now some people are happy with their Field and Hunter scores, some want to try again for a better score, so 3 or 4 ranges of Field PLUS 1 or 2 ranges of Animal on Friday, 3 ranges of Hunter PLUS 1 range of Animal on Saturday, and Animal only on Sunday.

That would have the following benefits:
Keep the Pros on their Friday, Saturday, Sunday schedule with the Animal on their last day per the Agenda item that passed
Allow flexibility for those who want / need to get done without shooting Sunday and go home
Keep Animal round only on Sunday so it is all over with early enough to do awards and get us headed home
And some people might even like to PRACTICE Animal on Friday or Saturday and shoot again on Sunday.


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## brtesite

FS560 said:


> We are not supposed to and we do not represent VBA members. Only VFAA.


 My mistake, I really meant VFAA as I do know that the VBA is the other organization of which there are some that belong to the VFAA.


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## bucktrout

brtesite said:


> My mistake, I really meant VFAA as I do know that the VBA is the other organization of which there are some that belong to the VFAA.


We (VBA) had over 70 shooters at the 2 day 3d state open last weekend at NORVA.


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