# Pennsylvania Crossbow Legislation Passed



## vtec1

That sucks! Why don't we just take out rifles in bow season, takes the sport out of it, IMHO.


----------



## Rory/MO

vtec1 said:


> That sucks! Why don't we just take out rifles in bow season, takes the sport out of it, IMHO.


The same could be said about that compound you're shooting. I don't see the trad guys *****ing about it though. Wierd huh?


----------



## NY911

vtec1 said:


> That sucks! Why don't we just take out rifles in bow season, takes the sport out of it, IMHO.


What?

Senseless comment.


----------



## pbwhite

I agree with vtec, they don't belong in bow season and NC is getting ready to pass the same thing.


----------



## Rory/MO

pbwhite said:


> I agree with vtec, they don't belong in bow season and NC is getting ready to pass the same thing.


Compounds don't belong in a REAL archery season either then :thumbs_do


----------



## vtec1

Rory/MO said:


> The same could be said about that compound you're shooting.
> 
> The act of pulling back a bow in the heat of the moment, regardless of traditional or compound takes the game to a whole other level. Compared to sitting in a stand with your rifle I mean crossbow cocked, sorry big difference. Like I stated, my opinion.


----------



## Rory/MO

vtec1 said:


> Rory/MO said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same could be said about that compound you're shooting.
> 
> The act of pulling back a bow in the heat of the moment, regardless of traditional or compound takes the game to a whole other level. Compared to sitting in a stand with your rifle I mean crossbow cocked, sorry big difference. Like I stated, my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Those 80 % let off bows sure are hard to pull back
Click to expand...


----------



## nicko

Whether or not anybody agrees with the decision to allow crossbows, likening them to rifles is foolish and ignorant of the facts. 

FACT - crossbows have the same effective range of compound bows 
FACT - simply carrying a crossbow into the woods does not mean deer will fall at your feet
FACT - hunting skills and woodsmanship are still required to get a crossbow hunter within lethal shooting range of a deer
FACT - crossbows still need to be shot in practice and are not ready to go right out of the store

Crossbows are not the end of the world and have been allowed in certain areas of PA for a few years now. I do not own or shoot one but I'm not gonna get my undies in a bunch over this.


----------



## Wyatt in PA

Atleast the crossbows in archery season makes some sense, but no hunting on Sundays? Now thats just stupid.


----------



## bucknut1

That does suck it just gives a reason for more people to be in the woods and shoot at the deer that arent there. Other then people that have a ligit reason to use them, they are for people who are to lazy to use a real bow.


----------



## vtec1

bucknut1 said:


> that does suck it just gives a reason for more people to be in the woods and shoot at the deer that arent there. Other then people that have a ligit reason to use them, they are for people who are to lazy to use a real bow.


+1 !


----------



## Rory/MO

bucknut1 said:


> That does suck it just gives a reason for more people to be in the woods and shoot at the deer that arent there. Other then people that have a ligit reason to use them, they are for people who are to lazy to use a real bow.



Using that reasoning, I think you should get off the forum for not being able to spell legit. 
Just kidding (kind of)


----------



## bucknut1

Sorry bud i just get kinda fired up and didnt do my personal (spellcheck). It really stinks when they stick more people in the woods when the deer numbers are really down. I really wish the game commission would stop being run by rich people and listen to the hunters.


----------



## Mathias

all right _*another*_ crossbow fight...now here's something new :deadhorse. somebody lock this thing up before all the keyboard commandos really get into it :lock1:


----------



## Rory/MO

bucknut1 said:


> Sorry bud i just get kinda fired up and didnt do my personal (spellcheck). It really stinks when they stick more people in the woods when the deer numbers are really down. I really wish the game commission would stop being run by rich people and listen to the hunters.


I'm sure the introduction of compound hunting stuck more people in the woods than when it was just trad. equipment.


----------



## jimncamo

I live in Ohio and cross bow's are legal. I don't use one but have one. We are all going to be old some day and can't pull back a bow.... I want to be out there with something and a cross bow offers that to everyone. Just a thought.


----------



## PaP&Ybowhunter

Rory/MO said:


> vtec1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Those 80 % let off bows sure are hard to pull back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not how hard it is to pull back, its the whole process of trying to get a bow drawn and shot. I was in ohio hunting this past weekend, trying to get a few does, I was using a compound bow. I had 23 skitish deer within 60 yards of my stand, trying to draw my bow was about impossible with 46 eyes all around me. If I would have been sitting in a stand with a crossbow resting on a gun rail it would have been alot easier.
Click to expand...


----------



## PaP&Ybowhunter

jimncamo said:


> I live in Ohio and cross bow's are legal. I don't use one but have one. We are all going to be old some day and can't pull back a bow.... I want to be out there with something and a cross bow offers that to everyone. Just a thought.


I think most bowhunters in pa would have been ok if they made them legal for senior hunters as a comprimise.


----------



## bucknut1

Thats not what i am saying, im saying that they dont need to be adding more things to a season. Trust me i love gun hunting and i hunt pretty much everything. I've gotten to the point where i wish they would cut down our rifle season to the 3 day shotgun and try to get the status of a real quality midwest state. I know that would only be a start, but i really think if the commission wasnt so money driven PA could be really awesome.


----------



## BuckWyld

PaP&Ybowhunter said:


> Rory/MO said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its not how hard it is to pull back, its the whole process of trying to get a bow drawn and shot. I was in ohio hunting this past weekend, trying to get a few does, I was using a compound bow. I had 23 skitish deer within 60 yards of my stand, trying to draw my bow was about impossible with 66 eyes all around me. If I would have been sitting in a stand with a crossbow resting on a gun rail it would have been alot easier.
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard huntin' over east was tough but man, 23 deer with 66 eyes? Holy crap, I would never get anything!
Click to expand...


----------



## PaP&Ybowhunter

thats funny I can't believe I missed that. You think I would have been hunting on three mile Island.


----------



## bullelk1

Randy is right. I don't care if you are for or against crossbows, it would be much easier to get a shot if you take the nocking and drawing out of it. Period. It is NOT archery hunting.


----------



## tedhunter

BuckWyld said:


> PaP&Ybowhunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard huntin' over east was tough but man, 23 deer with 66 eyes? Holy crap, I would never get anything!
> 
> 
> 
> there are a couple of reactors up that way...........
Click to expand...


----------



## deermaster

vtec1 said:


> Rory/MO said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same could be said about that compound you're shooting.
> 
> The act of pulling back a bow in the heat of the moment, regardless of traditional or compound takes the game to a whole other level. Compared to sitting in a stand with your rifle I mean crossbow cocked, sorry big difference. Like I stated, my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, its a HUGE challenge to draw a 60 lb bow, 80% letoff... dude, i can draw my compound with as much movement as it takes to raise a rifle.
Click to expand...


----------



## deermaster

bucknut1 said:


> That does suck it just gives a reason for more people to be in the woods and shoot at the deer that arent there. Other then people that have a ligit reason to use them, they are for people who are to lazy to use a real bow.


define real bow. modern compound, 300+ fps? older compound, 220 fps? traditional bow, carbon limbs, carbon arrows? primitive, backed, all wood bow, or self bow, one piece of wood, all natural points and arrow shafts? just wondering what a "real bow" is  learn a bit about bows before spouting off useless terms.
i have killed deer with shotguns, rifles, compounds, longbow, and now that va is crossbow legal, i hope to kill one with a crossbow.


----------



## bucknut1

Haha thanx bud, just read what i wrote earlier bout seein more deer. i just get fired up about adding more to the season, it kinda blows when we are already lacking in the deer department in most parts of the state. I know there are huge differences in modern and old time bows. Im saying just keep it vertical and try to manage our heards a little better then just killing them all. thats what im saying im not starting a bashing.


----------



## Jeff K in IL

Funny thread... pass the popcorn..


----------



## cebert07

Im not against crossbow hunters that cant draw a bow or are older than 65 i think in WI but for everyone to be able to use them. I dont know about that it kinda takes the fun out of archery hunting. Alot easyer to shoot a crossbow out a window than a compound bow. I bet there will be more poaching when everyone can get a crossbow. Hope the law enforcment plans to spend the money to keep an eye on more poachers. Crossbow out the truck/car window is possable but drawing a compound/trad. bow in a car/truck doesnt happen.

Just thought I would bring up another point in this thread


----------



## op27

I think most of you are getting all worked up for nothing. Most of the people that are against crossbows have never shot one. There really is no advantage, ecept for pulling the xbow back. The 2 I have shot, were really loud, and both people that owned them didn't feel comfortable shooting them past 30 yards. 

If you haven't shoot one, you really have no idea what to expect.


----------



## rocklock

vtec1 said:


> That sucks! Why don't we just take out rifles in bow season, takes the sport out of it, IMHO.



My thoughts too....


----------



## op27

cebert07 said:


> Crossbow out the truck/car window is possable but drawing a compound/trad. bow in a car/truck doesnt happen.


Your dead wrong on this one, There were a few local boys that got caught shooting a DXT out the window of a Megacab. That had a pretty good setup, just roll down the back window, and wham. 

That's just another lame excuse.


----------



## cebert07

op27 said:


> Your dead wrong on this one, There were a few local boys that got caught shooting a DXT out the window of a Megacab. That had a pretty good setup, just roll down the back window, and wham.
> 
> That's just another lame excuse.



Ya it is possiable to shoot the compound out the window but much easyer for the crossbow poucher because you can pretty much shoot out of any window


----------



## bucknut1

Save the DEER!!!!!!


----------



## bowhuntrrl

So many of you just don't understand how bad crossbows suck and are so misinformed !!! I've been a bow hunter for 35 years or so. In the past 2 years, I've had back surgery and other health problems. I had a real problem with using my regular bow (Elite E-500) just before the season. I had a crossbow permit from my state for 2 years and have never used it. I bought a crossbow and began to see the problems inherent with hunting with it. First of all is getting that unwieldy piece of crap through the woods. There is definitely no spot and stalk with one. Next problem lies when you get to your stand. Do you load it on the ground or load it once you have hauled it up ??? Which ever you choose,there are problems with either choice. Next comes the moment of truth, if you should be offered a shot. It's not too easy to get them up and hold them steady, I would much rather use a bow, it's a lot easier.

On top of that, they need a new string every 50 shots, and most crossbows self destruct on a regular basis since every shot is a virtual dry fire. I have shot mine 20 times, hauled it to the woods once, and when there, decided I couldn't be bothered with all the crap to use it. It's for sale if you know anyone who wants a barely broken in Parker !!! I only hope that next season that I will be able to use my bow, or maybe buy a Draw Lock. Other than that, my bow hunting days might be over.

There are truly many guys that have no other option due to physical disabilities. Are you guys so greedy that someone might kill a deer that you would deprive someone of what might be their only joy ??? I know that I look forward to the fall hunting season every year and in spite of my struggle, I had an extremely disappointing season, mainly due to the problems with trying to use a crossbow.

My point is don't think for a minute that they have any advantage at all over a regular bow. I can shoot my Elite out to 70 yards (when I can pull it), but yet the crossbow is limited to 40 yards. They sound like a .22 rifle going off and unless the deer is sleeping on his feet, HE WILL JUMP OUT OF THE WAY !!! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who chooses one over a bow, as long as they can use a bow, is an idiot !!! Those that have to use them have my condolences.


----------



## preyquester

if you think xbows are so deadley take one to a 3d shoot,you will learn real quick most compound shooters & even some trad shooters will give you a thumping....the sky is not falling....


----------



## passthru11

bullelk1 said:


> Randy is right. I don't care if you are for or against crossbows, it would be much easier to get a shot if you take the nocking and drawing out of it. Period. It is NOT archery hunting.



to proove x-bows have way more advantage, give a reg joe who never shot a crossbow or compound bow and see which one he can shoot more accuratley. assuming the compound is setup for that person. and both are dialed in. ill put money on the x-bow

x-bow. faster, dont have to draw, shoot like a gun. flatter trajectory.
compound..slower, have many factors to consider while shooting like, clipping release, drawing, finding consitant anchor point, line up peep. which pin to use, have to hold at full draw if needed. bulky clothing in the way, string slap. etc.etc. many more factors


----------



## passthru11

bowhuntrrl said:


> So many of you just don't understand how bad crossbows suck and are so misinformed !!! I've been a bow hunter for 35 years or so. In the past 2 years, I've had back surgery and other health problems. I had a real problem with using my regular bow (Elite E-500) just before the season. I had a crossbow permit from my state for 2 years and have never used it. I bought a crossbow and began to see the problems inherent with hunting with it. First of all is getting that unwieldy piece of crap through the woods. There is definitely no spot and stalk with one. Next problem lies when you get to your stand. Do you load it on the ground or load it once you have hauled it up ??? Which ever you choose,there are problems with either choice. Next comes the moment of truth, if you should be offered a shot. It's not too easy to get them up and hold them steady, I would much rather use a bow, it's a lot easier.
> 
> On top of that, they need a new string every 50 shots, and most crossbows self destruct on a regular basis since every shot is a virtual dry fire. I have shot mine 20 times, hauled it to the woods once, and when there, decided I couldn't be bothered with all the crap to use it. It's for sale if you know anyone who wants a barely broken in Parker !!! I only hope that next season that I will be able to use my bow, or maybe buy a Draw Lock. Other than that, my bow hunting days might be over.
> 
> There are truly many guys that have no other option due to physical disabilities. Are you guys so greedy that someone might kill a deer that you would deprive someone of what might be their only joy ??? I know that I look forward to the fall hunting season every year and in spite of my struggle, I had an extremely disappointing season, mainly due to the problems with trying to use a crossbow.
> 
> My point is don't think for a minute that they have any advantage at all over a regular bow. I can shoot my Elite out to 70 yards (when I can pull it), but yet the crossbow is limited to 40 yards. They sound like a .22 rifle going off and unless the deer is sleeping on his feet, HE WILL JUMP OUT OF THE WAY !!! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who chooses one over a bow, as long as they can use a bow, is an idiot !!! Those that have to use them have my condolences.




its easier for you to use a bow becuase you have been an archer for 35yrs. if you had used a crossbow in that time, im sure you'd be pretty damn good and feel plenty comfortable with it.

i feel more comfortable with my bow than gun, but to say it has an advantage over a gun is ridiculous. i would choose my bow over gun anyday. Ive missed more deer with my gun than bow. but thats becuase i practice alot with my bow. 
i agree people with disabilities should be allowed to use a x-bow. but everyone..noway. might as well let them use shotguns they have a range about 50-100yds depending on the gun anway. By buddys dads horton is deadly at 70yds. shooting 350fps. hence another advantage of a crossbow


----------



## dspell20

It promotes hunting so I think that it is good. Other state like Ohio allow it and the world did not come to an end. Give it a chance you won't even notice the difference. They have allowed cross bows in 2B for a few years and I haven't seen any negative outcomes. Hunters are our sports worst enemy. Hunt with what you like and have fun! Is that not what its all about.


----------



## vtec1

deermaster said:


> vtec1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, its a HUGE challenge to draw a 60 lb bow, 80% letoff... dude, i can draw my compound with as much movement as it takes to raise a rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually 75 lb bow 65% let off, just cause I enjoy kinetic energy dude
Click to expand...


----------



## IChim2

I wouldn't worry about it much...most hunters that i know let them collect dust more than they use them.


----------



## THE GENERAL

Won't even notice?

Yeah right maybe in your area but some places you got guys just looking for a reason to go out and shoot more deer and this opens it up for them. As if the season isnt short enough. Two weeks then we share the next 4 with small game and a week with muzzeloaders. I think we got just about the shortest archery season around and now we have to share it with people that just want to kill for the sake of killing rather then taking the time and effort to become an acomplished archer. After my first bow kill I was hooked. I would rather pick a bow up then rifle any day. Not that shooting one with a rifle isnt an acomplishment but compared to doing it with a bow. Its apples and oranges not even close


----------



## PALongbow

CROSSGUN - Shoulder held and locked...nuff said.


----------



## Viper69

I think one point that alot of people are not seeing is that I do understand that x-bows are not easy to carry around and are loud and they are definitily not rifles etc, etc. The problem that I see here in Pa is the large amount of hunters especially in rifle season. Hunting with a rifle in Pa is all about just going out and waiting for someone to drive you a deer. Theres no hunting involved IMO. At least in archery season you are trying to outsmart a deer in there natural routine. This new law will just load the woods up even more hunters during archery. Its used to be a great time of year to get out there but now there be a hunter behind every tree! This was done for $$$ only and not to better hunting in Pa. I think they may as well start hunting season on October 1st thru january 10th and you can hunt with anything you want as long as you pay for more and more permits. Then the deer would just plain get wiped out and we can move on to other hobbies I guess. :angry:


----------



## raylandarcher

Like Preyquester said on page 1.Guys in PA the sky isnt falling and the world isnt coming to an end.I shoot a mathews not a crossbow but we have had crossbows in archery season now here in Ohio for many years and it hasnt affected one single thing.The herd is still strong and healthy and I may run into someone in the woods carrying a crossbow maybe once a year.


----------



## ArbutusBucks

For the pro-crossbow defense.... "you compound boys did the same thing to traditional guys when compounds came out". This does just not hold water. There is greater range true. However you still must draw and that is the difference. 

I guarantee if you told a dedicated bowhunter that he had to drop his compound and use trad equipment... or face crossbows and shortened seasons he would just use his traditional tackle. I know I would.


----------



## Rory/MO

God this thread is hilarious:darkbeer:. I bet 3/4 of the guys that are bashing crossbows, have never picked one up:loco::nyah:


----------



## OLDMOSSYHORNS

dspell20 said:


> It promotes hunting so I think that it is good. Other state like Ohio allow it and the world did not come to an end. Give it a chance you won't even notice the difference. They have allowed cross bows in 2B for a few years and I haven't seen any negative outcomes. Hunters are our sports worst enemy. Hunt with what you like and have fun! Is that not what its all about.


Well said! :thumbs_up


----------



## No.1 Hoyt

Jeff K in IL said:


> Funny thread... pass the popcorn..



:happy1:


----------



## willie

Rory/MO said:


> God this thread is hilarious:darkbeer:. I bet 3/4 of the guys that are bashing crossbows, have never picked one up:loco::nyah:


*BINGO!!*

They are polly parrots...regurgitating what has been spoon fed them by other bowhunters and "bowhunting organizations"....

Fellers,

It is *OVER* in PA. Let's pick another state to fight in. Any suggestions? :wink:


----------



## deermaster

vtec1 said:


> deermaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually 75 lb bow 65% let off, just cause I enjoy kinetic energy dude
Click to expand...


----------



## nicko

I have a friend who hunts with a crossbow. He says it is so deadly that all he has to do is roll down the window of his car and shout into the woods "I HAVE A CROSSBOW" and he literally hears deer fall over dead in the leaves. 

Didn't Geronimo, Sitting Bull, and Tonto all shoot crossbows?


----------



## willie




----------



## sits in trees

Mathias said:


> all right _*another*_ crossbow fight...now here's something new :deadhorse. somebody lock this thing up before all the keyboard commandos really get into it :lock1:


yea God forbid we come here to discuss something that most of us don't have the opportunity to discuss any place else(between jobs and family), most guys dont have time in their day to to take a leak anymore...

so lets do what Hitler or Stalin would have done and ban this evil discusion because you dont like it??


----------



## sits in trees

PaP&Ybowhunter said:


> I think most bowhunters in pa would have been ok if they made them legal for senior hunters as a comprimise.


so you have to be old and near death to enjoy the use of a viable weapon for deer hunting, very good reasoning. i think we should also ban the use of compounds to anyone under the age of 35


----------



## SEOBowhntr

Rory/MO said:


> Compounds don't belong in a REAL archery season either then :thumbs_do


Rory, 
You never fail to impress. :wink: I tend to disagree, because I think the DRAW of the bow is the big thing that makes the crossbow so advantageous. 
But, PA Game Commission made the crossbow a bit more "restricted" than many would have liked. No 4x scopes only 1x scope with reticules are going to be allowed, which takes away the advantage of not only already having ones weapon cocked, but also having 4x magnification to "peak" at something a little closer before you squeeze one off. 




nicko said:


> Whether or not anybody agrees with the decision to allow crossbows, likening them to rifles is foolish and ignorant of the facts.
> 
> FACT - crossbows have the same effective range of compound bows
> FACT - simply carrying a crossbow into the woods does not mean deer will fall at your feet
> FACT - hunting skills and woodsmanship are still required to get a crossbow hunter within lethal shooting range of a deer
> FACT - *crossbows still need to be shot in practice and are not ready to go right out of the store*
> 
> Crossbows are not the end of the world and have been allowed in certain areas of PA for a few years now. *I do not own or shoot one but I'm not gonna get my undies in a bunch over this. *


*BS!!!* I have a crossbow that get used infrequently by friends and relative I dare take to the woods. With minor adjustments, I can have ANY one of them hitting a 3-4" bullseye at 30yds. One of my friends killed his first ever archery season deer with my crossbow this year on only the 4th shot he'd ever shot from it!!!! That certainly wouldn't qualify as "*need to be shot in practice*" in my opinion. From there it's point and shoot like a rifle, especially with a nice little 4x scope. THIS part of your statement tells me you really don't likely have much of a clue what you are talking about. No offence intended, but in all honesty, I believe you're standing in the "Big Tent" but don't really know why you are there. 





Wyatt in PA said:


> At least the crossbows in archery season makes some sense, but no hunting on Sundays? Now thats just stupid.


Wyatt, 
I agree 100%, I think hunting is an enjoyable family past-time that is being stolen from people who have Mon-Fri Jobs, because they really only get one day a week they can even think about trying to hunt without using vacation time, etc, but that's another debate/argument in it's own right.


To the Original Post, I believe Crossbows ARE GOOD, as a weapon to get hunters into the woods, but I think that able-bodied people (MEN AND WOMEN), if they put effort into it would find that they enjoy shooting a Compound or Trad bow more, and that in the right hands, they are more capable weapons when practiced with.


----------



## sits in trees

you know what you anti x-bow guys should do, go out and spend a few hunred bucks (a mere drop in the bucket for any elitist's budjet)for an entry level x-bow this summer and just try it out:wink:you might just find that you like it....they really are alot of fun and i got hooked after shooting one for 10 mins, just like i was when i grabbed my first compound 30 years ago.....or my first rifle when i was 8...

stop trying to stop the growth of our sport, we have idiots out there doing a very good job of that right NOW!!!


----------



## PALongbow

What some of you guys don't realize is that PA is a much different state than most. Our early bowseason is only six weeks long. It's currently filled with firearms intrusions where we only have two weeks of real solitude. We have a ton of die-hard firearms hunters crying to our PGC that all the big bucks are taken by bowhunters prior to the two week concurrent(buck & doe) firearms season. Take this statement and hold on to it....if the number of deer taken during the archery season increases due the crossgun being implemented our season will be shortned....the crossgun will not be eliminated. There are those that would like to see nothing more than our early season reduced to four weeks and thats it...you say how does this tie into the use of crossguns...we'll think about it. 

Ron


----------



## sits in trees

PALongbow said:


> What some of you guys don't realize is that PA is a much different state than most. Our early bowseason is only six weeks long. It's currently filled with firearms intrusions where we only have two weeks of real solitude. We have a ton of die-hard firearms hunters crying to our PGC that all the big bucks are taken by bowhunters prior to the two week concurrent(buck & doe) firearms season. Take this statement and hold on to it....if the number of deer taken during the archery season increases due the crossgun being implemented our season will be shortned....the crossgun will not be eliminated. There are those that would like to see nothing more than our early season reduced to four weeks and thats it...you say how does this tie into the use of crossguns...we'll think about it.
> 
> Ron


you would bring alot more validity to your statements by not using the term crossguns, by doing this you present yourself as a person who is dazed and confused
otherwise your post brings foward some good pionts...


----------



## kravguy

PALongbow said:


> What some of you guys don't realize is that PA is a much different state than most. Our early bowseason is only six weeks long. It's currently filled with firearms intrusions where we only have two weeks of real solitude. We have a ton of die-hard firearms hunters crying to our PGC that all the big bucks are taken by bowhunters prior to the two week concurrent(buck & doe) firearms season. Take this statement and hold on to it....if the number of deer taken during the archery season increases due the crossgun being implemented our season will be shortned....the crossgun will not be eliminated. There are those that would like to see nothing more than our early season reduced to four weeks and thats it...you say how does this tie into the use of crossguns...we'll think about it.
> 
> Ron


The problem with PA hunters is that most think buying a license entitles them a deer, and god forbid if anyone shot one of THEIR deer and they didn't get one. Which I think is the number one reason why everyone is making such a big deal over the crossbows. Someone with a crossbow will shoot their deer first, but they wouldn't even been out if crossbows weren't allowed. I don't think it will change all that much by adding them. You have the good and the bad with almost anything. Whats the difference if an irresponsible "hunter" that wants to spend more time in the woods picks up a compound bow and barely practices with it, or if the same guy picks up a crossbow? Next season I'm sure there will be just as many guys running around with compounds that couldn't hit a hay bail with the darn thing as there will be guys with crossbows that couldn't do it either. Same as the guys in rifle season that never shoot their guns from one season to another. "Oh, I know my gun is on, it was on in 1992, so there is no way it could be off" 

I agree with people crying over archery season and each year it seems like something with a gun is added into archery season for a few days. Maybe it won't be long till they lump them all together and it will be a weapon of choice season. Maybe then we'll be allowed to hunt on Sundays too


----------



## Sliverflicker

*It was only a matter of time*

They finely got smart. For 30 years manufactures been trying to get it in the general bow season and could never get over a 10% approval from archers.
Plane and simple, 90% of Archers do not want it in the bow season!

Manufactures stoped trying to get the die hard bowhunters approval years ago, started targeting the young, old, and handicaped.

Dont even waste their money on bowhunting magazines, put almost all their advertising into gun magazines now.

Handicaped can use a Xbow in 49 states, and most states allow the Xbow to be used durring their gun season or have a season of their own, so why you ask do they continue to hound the states to allow it into the general archery season, MONEY, Big money to be made if they can just even draw 10% of the gun hunters into your bow season with the Xbow.

I have been around long enough to see a third of my bow season given away to special intrest groups, not hardly a 2 week period that goes by that does not have a gun shot in it, and now they want to cram even more gun hunters into my archery season with Xbows. So please dont expect me to sit around with my thumbs stuck up my hind quarters and keep my mouth shut.


----------



## pa drenalin

nicko said:


> Whether or not anybody agrees with the decision to allow crossbows, likening them to rifles is foolish and ignorant of the facts.
> 
> FACT - crossbows have the same effective range of compound bows
> FACT - simply carrying a crossbow into the woods does not mean deer will fall at your feet
> FACT - hunting skills and woodsmanship are still required to get a crossbow hunter within lethal shooting range of a deer
> FACT - crossbows still need to be shot in practice and are not ready to go right out of the store
> 
> Crossbows are not the end of the world and have been allowed in certain areas of PA for a few years now. I do not own or shoot one but I'm not gonna get my undies in a bunch over this.





i doesn,t take any skill to shoot a crossbow like it does with a compound bow now every rifle hunter that waits for last week to get there license will be out there and that just means less deer in pa:thumbs_do:thumbs_do:thumbs_do


----------



## Bobmuley

*Why?*

Did they have a reason "why" they wanted crossbows? 

Were enough deer being killed to manage the herd?
Was it a small/large group of sportsmen asking for it?
Was it manufacturers asking for it?


----------



## Campo

Meh....crossbows are for those who don't have the form or skill to shoot a compound bow. Weak sauce basically...

I don't care either way...good onto PA!

Edit: I am fully in support of crossbows for those who need them due to physical disabilities though....

Apparently some hunters need them for other reasons too... :wink:


----------



## Bobmuley

Campo said:


> Meh....crossbows are for those who don't have the form or skill to shoot a compound bow. Weak sauce basically...
> 
> I don't care either way...good onto PA!


There's a forty-year old argument...

Compounds are for those who don't have the form or skill to shoot a recurve.:wink: 

The line needs to be drawn somewhere, I just think that the line of exclusion is on the other side of crossbows.


----------



## Gadestroyer74

ok let me share my opinion. i used a crosss bow once this year first time ever. i am huge bow hunting finatic.the reason i did was i had been hunting in ohio with my bow it was snowing like a son of a gun.i had a buck come in i was gonna shoot at like 20 yards. i couldnt even stand up for the snow crunching on my stand. i tried to wipe it off which left water and turn to ice so i decided to try the crossbow and it worked. i didnt have to stand and in that eviroment it helped me and when u got 20 deer around and u cant get up. there are alot of people who cant enjoy the sport or archery becasue of shoulder injuriess or other reason that are left out yet they would fall short of using a compound and can not archery hunt. why shouldnt they be allowed. to each his own weapon.i dont muzzleloader hunt but i dont bash people who do. really it will get more people into hunting and help generate more sales which should help the economy. there are far to many deer being hit by vehicles. just my opinion


----------



## Campo

Touche! :wink:



Bobmuley said:


> There's a forty-year old argument...
> 
> Compounds are for those who don't have the form or skill to shoot a recurve.:wink:
> 
> The line needs to be drawn somewhere, I just think that the line of exclusion is on the other side of crossbows.


----------



## CrossbowCiller

Wow I cant believe some of you think crossbows are going to ruin hunting. You can only shoot crossbows just about as far as compounds and they still require alot of skill to shoot properly. The deer population isnt going to die off because of crossbows. They are still a bow and only have the capabilities of a bow! And the woods wont be littered with unresponsible crossbow hunters. Sure you might have a few but there are a few hunters that dont care no matter what weapon they use. Ohio is doing just fine and they have allowed crossbows for a while.


----------



## kravguy

pa drenalin said:


> i doesn,t take any skill to shoot a crossbow like it does with a compound bow now every rifle hunter that waits for last week to get there license will be out there and that just means less deer in pa:thumbs_do:thumbs_do:thumbs_do


Yes, but how many wait and do the same thing with a compound bow? I bet a whole lot more than you think.


----------



## pa drenalin

Bobmuley said:


> Did they have a reason "why" they wanted crossbows?
> 
> Were enough deer being killed to manage the herd?
> Was it a small/large group of sportsmen asking for it?
> Was it manufacturers asking for it?




i think the pgc didn,t get there license increase so there let crossbows during archery season to get more money


----------



## kravguy

bhearn1974 said:


> ok let me share my opinion. i used a crosss bow once this year first time ever. i am huge bow hunting finatic.the reason i did was i had been hunting in ohio with my bow it was snowing like a son of a gun.i had a buck come in i was gonna shoot at like 20 yards. i couldnt even stand up for the snow crunching on my stand. i tried to wipe it off which left water and turn to ice so i decided to try the crossbow and it worked. i didnt have to stand and in that eviroment it helped me and when u got 20 deer around and u cant get up. there are alot of people who cant enjoy the sport or archery becasue of shoulder injuriess or other reason that are left out yet they would fall short of using a compound and can not archery hunt. why shouldnt they be allowed. to each his own weapon.i dont muzzleloader hunt but i dont bash people who do. really it will get more people into hunting and help generate more sales which should help the economy. there are far to many deer being hit by vehicles. just my opinion


Why didn't you shoot the compound while sitting? 

Previously in PA you could use a crossbow if you were injured, or too old to shoot a compound. You just had to get permission for it.


----------



## Mike from Texas

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but IMO it's a sad day for bowhunters in Pa.


----------



## sits in trees

Campo said:


> Meh....crossbows are for those who don't have the form or skill to shoot a compound bow. Weak sauce basically...
> 
> I don't care either way...good onto PA!
> 
> Edit: I am fully in support of crossbows for those who need them due to physical disabilities though....
> 
> Apparently some hunters need them for other reasons too... :wink:


look in the mirror, i believe that weak sauce is leaking from your ears:wink:

i'm neither weak or unskilled at shooting a compound but will truly enjoy hunting with a crossbow in PA this upcoming season:thumbs_up three cheers for the great state of PA!!!!


----------



## nicko

SEOBowhntr said:


> *BS!!!* I have a crossbow that get used infrequently by friends and relative I dare take to the woods. With minor adjustments, I can have ANY one of them hitting a 3-4" bullseye at 30yds. One of my friends killed his first ever archery season deer with my crossbow this year on only the 4th shot he'd ever shot from it!!!! That certainly wouldn't qualify as "*need to be shot in practice*" in my opinion. From there it's point and shoot like a rifle, especially with a nice little 4x scope. THIS part of your statement tells me you really don't likely have much of a clue what you are talking about. No offence intended, but in all honesty, I believe you're standing in the "Big Tent" but don't really know why you are there.
> 
> .


Sorry to break the news to you chumpy but I do know what I'm talking about. My neighbor bought a crossbow this year and the thing was all over the place when he shot it. It didn't like the carbon bolts that came with the package he bought and it didn't like fixed heads either. He had to experiment and *practice* to get the right head-shaft combo down and the sight on target. Have you ever heard of rifles or slug guns that don't like certain loads and bullet weights? Same thing applies. *Practice pal. Practice.* 

Based upon your statements, it looks like you think shooting a rifle requires no practice to shoot accurately either. You sound like another elitist bowhunter. 

And no offense taken (by the way, you spelled offense wrong). Might want to *practice* that.


----------



## georgiabuckdan

way i see it there perfect for kids, I'd rather shoot a deer with my bow just because... I like it better its more of a challenge!


----------



## Gadestroyer74

kravguy said:


> Why didn't you shoot the compound while sitting?
> 
> Previously in PA you could use a crossbow if you were injured, or too old to shoot a compound. You just had to get permission for it.


summit goliath climber seat isnt high enough to shoot over rail u have to stand otherwise i would have


----------



## Campo

Why...you tired of eating tag soup in your home state of New York? :wink:

Looked in the mirror...all I see is my opinions staring back at me! 



sits in trees said:


> look in the mirror, i believe that weak sauce is leaking from your ears:wink:
> 
> i'm neither weak or unskilled at shooting a compound but will truly enjoy hunting with a crossbow in PA this upcoming season:thumbs_up three cheers for the great state of PA!!!!


----------



## raylandarcher

kravguy said:


> Why didn't you shoot the compound while sitting?
> 
> Previously in PA you could use a crossbow if you were injured, or too old to shoot a compound. You just had to get permission for it.


I was wondering the same thing.90 percent of the deer I shoot with a bow are from the sitting position.Why stand and take a chance of getting busted?I know sometimes you have to stand to get a shot thats why I said only 90 percent I shoot are sitting down.


----------



## doctariAFC

deermaster said:


> define real bow. modern compound, 300+ fps? older compound, 220 fps? traditional bow, carbon limbs, carbon arrows? primitive, backed, all wood bow, or self bow, one piece of wood, all natural points and arrow shafts? just wondering what a "real bow" is  learn a bit about bows before spouting off useless terms.
> i have killed deer with shotguns, rifles, compounds, longbow, and now that va is crossbow legal, i hope to kill one with a crossbow.


Yeah, no doubt.

I support crossbow legalization. As everyone knows.

But, despite my support for the crossbow, this coming season I will be using a 75# @ 28" long bow.

Now, there you have it - a "real bow". No let-off. No sights. No range finder. No release. Just a 6' piece of Yew wood and a synthetic cat gut string.

Now since he didn't say "real arrows", I will let that definition be what it is, right? Incidentally, I will be flinging hard maple shaft arrows and turkey feather fletching. Haven't decided on a broadhead yet.

See, that's the beauty of chocie. Someone being able to choose to use a compound or a long bow. And last I checked, adding a crossbow to the choice list won't affect my choices that I will make - save for adding another option (and another big boy toy to buy)

Way to go PA.


----------



## pabuckslayer08

I really think this is good and bad all together. I just hope it doesnt turn into a rifle season with 900,000 people out and it looking like a pumpkin patch. I have no problem with the crossbows but there should be a special season just for them. Like maybe just a few days here and there throughout the archery season.


----------



## doctariAFC

pabuckslayer08 said:


> I really think this is good and bad all together. I just hope it doesnt turn into a rifle season with 900,000 people out and it looking like a pumpkin patch. I have no problem with the crossbows but there should be a special season just for them. Like maybe just a few days here and there throughout the archery season.


There is more than ample evidence in other states like Georgia, for instance, to assuage those particular fears.


----------



## Matt Musto

Mods, please move this to the CROSSBOW forum. Thank you


----------



## PALongbow

Again you guys are blurring the weapon debate with what is going on here in PA. If the deer harvest increases in archery season we will have no chance of further opportunity. Worse case the season gets shortned...so there is an true impact to having the crossgun approved for use in archery season here in PA. 

Most hunters don't see the true impact because they are too busy embrassing weapon types and all hunters in general and not educating themselves on the potential outcome...

Ron


----------



## Big Country

pa drenalin said:


> *i doesn,t take any skill to shoot a crossbow like it does with a compound *bow now every rifle hunter that waits for last week to get there license will be out there and that just means less deer in pa:thumbs_do:thumbs_do:thumbs_do


1. So what?
2. You go get a top end crossbow and practice up. Then let me know when yo are ready to get your hat handed to you by a compound in a Vegas round.

3. After the initial influx, the majority of previously gun only hunters will fade away when they realize that it takes more than a crossbow to get within 30 yards of a deer.

Much ado about nothing........


----------



## Nameless Hunter

I'll go along with all but "fact 4". Xbows do take less practice and don't have torqueing issues. On the other hand, they come with a lot of issues, such as weight and noise. People who are worried should look into their impact in GA, which made them legal two years ago. Pretty much zero impact. Got a buddy there who borrowed and tried one the 1st year (had shoulder problems). He hated it. Went to a physical therapist and bought a new bow. Those against xbows are also overlooking a big plus. Additional hunters in archery season means more clout with the DNR.



nicko said:


> Whether or not anybody agrees with the decision to allow crossbows, likening them to rifles is foolish and ignorant of the facts.
> 
> FACT - crossbows have the same effective range of compound bows
> FACT - simply carrying a crossbow into the woods does not mean deer will fall at your feet
> FACT - hunting skills and woodsmanship are still required to get a crossbow hunter within lethal shooting range of a deer
> FACT - crossbows still need to be shot in practice and are not ready to go right out of the store
> 
> Crossbows are not the end of the world and have been allowed in certain areas of PA for a few years now. I do not own or shoot one but I'm not gonna get my undies in a bunch over this.


----------



## kravguy

bhearn1974 said:


> summit goliath climber seat isnt high enough to shoot over rail u have to stand otherwise i would have


Gotcha big guy:wink:


----------



## Deerslayer1976

Best news I've read today. :thumbs_up


----------



## op27

Man, it got moved. I will never find it now.



Man up


----------



## SteveB

> Touche!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Bobmuley
> There's a forty-year old argument...
> 
> Compounds are for those who don't have the form or skill to shoot a recurve.
> 
> The line needs to be drawn somewhere, I just think that the line of exclusion is on the other side of crossbows.
Click to expand...

Touche 2!

Steve


----------



## SEOBowhntr

CrossbowCiller said:


> Wow I cant believe some of you think crossbows are going to ruin hunting. You can only shoot crossbows just about as far as compounds and *they still require alot of skill to shoot properly. * The deer population isnt going to die off because of crossbows. They are still a bow and only have the capabilities of a bow! *And the woods wont be littered with unresponsible crossbow hunters. * Sure you might have a few but there are a few hunters that dont care no matter what weapon they use. Ohio is doing just fine and they have allowed crossbows for a while.


To the first, RED part, I disagree completely!!!! AS I stated earlier in the thread, I've quickly put one in the hands of 5 different people in the last 6months, and had them shooting well enough that they would have a GOOD kill shot on anything 0-30yds!!!! My buddy killed a deer the FOURTH time he ever shot a crossbow!!!! Don't take much skill at all, and he'd tell you that!!! 




nicko said:


> Sorry to break the news to you chumpy but I do know what I'm talking about. My neighbor bought a crossbow this year and the thing was all over the place when he shot it. It didn't like the carbon bolts that came with the package he bought and it didn't like fixed heads either. He had to experiment and *practice* to get the right head-shaft combo down and the sight on target. Have you ever heard of rifles or slug guns that don't like certain loads and bullet weights? Same thing applies. *Practice pal. Practice.*
> 
> 
> Based upon your statements, it looks like you think shooting a rifle requires no practice to shoot accurately either. You sound like another elitist bowhunter.
> 
> And no offense taken (by the way, you spelled offense wrong). Might want to *practice* that.


Then your neighbor is either the owner of not-so-good crossbow, a poor shot, or a combination of. 5 people in under an hour!!!! That's about how long it took ALL TOTAL to have them shoot, see where their groups were in comparision to how I had the scope set, and tweak it to their specific needs. Each, including a 14yr old kid, and my 37yr old disabled cousin. 

And "NO" I don't think it takes that much practice to shoot a rifle accurately if you know how to set it up. But you've help make my case pretty solid by comparing a shooting a crossbow to shooting a rifle. :doh: :noidea: :confused3: 



Big Country said:


> 1. So what?
> *2. You go get a top end crossbow and practice up. Then let me know when yo are ready to get your hat handed to you by a compound in a Vegas round.
> *
> 3. After the initial influx, the majority of previously gun only hunters will fade away when they realize that it takes more than a crossbow to get within 30 yards of a deer.
> 
> Much ado about nothing........


But it's not about a "Vegas Round," it's about killing animals. While I'll agree, I don't think it would prove anything in the overall realm. Most crossbow hunters could care less what their "score" on a round of targets, it's more about getting a chance to kill something.


----------



## FDR

I hunt where they have been legal for 7(?) years. I have seen less than 30% of hunters I come across in archery using them. My hunting tactics have changed slightly in that there are a few more hunters in the woods. I haven't seen anything degrading or unethical at all, not saying it doesn't happen but I haven't seen it.

My concern is that the state has varying amounts of deer populations, very low deer per square mile in the northern tier vs high populations in and around the cities. I hunt around suburbia and see a ton of deer every year, even after the season inluding the past two weeks. People who have camps in the mountains don't even go there anymore except for in the summer because they might see a couple deer over three days of hunting in the winter. 

The introduction of full state crossbow use will have a minor % of uptick in buck harvest, possibly incurring a wrath from the rifle hunters that all the bucks are shot in archery. This has no basis of course because you can only shoot one buck a year no matter the season. The majority(which are rifle hunters) will complain and the PGC could end up shortening the archery season from 6 weeks now to 4 weeks or less. Yes, I know no other state has ever shortened a season because of crossbow introduction but the PGC has made some really strange decisions in the past 10 years, many controversial. You PA hunters know the few I'm talking about: AR/HR/waterfowl/turkey.

Shortening the season is possibly good for the northern tier or where low deer densities are, but not in my neck of the woods. They should try to manage it on a WMU individual basis, not statewide cut and dried. That is the case in most situations, the PGC just states "Archery hunting statewide Oct. xx to Nov. xx" with no distinctions in individual WMU's(Wildlife Management Units).

Sorry for the rambling, just my view from a non-crossbow hunter in an SRA where it has been legal for many years.


----------



## nicko

SEOBowhntr said:


> Then your neighbor is either the owner of not-so-good crossbow, a poor shot, or a combination of. 5 people in under an hour!!!! That's about how long it took ALL TOTAL to have them shoot, see where their groups were in comparision to how I had the scope set, and tweak it to their specific needs. Each, including a 14yr old kid, and my 37yr old disabled cousin.
> 
> And "NO" I don't think it takes that much practice to shoot a rifle accurately if you know how to set it up. But you've help make my case pretty solid by comparing a shooting a crossbow to shooting a rifle. :doh: :noidea: :confused3:


I did't compare it shooting a rifle. You did. I stated a crossbow, like any weapon, requires practice. Just because a weapon is set up doesn't mean you're good to go hunting. If you can set up a bow and shoot it accurately out to 20 yards within an hour, why do you need to practice? The first bow I bought as a ready-to-hunt package came sighted in to 20 yards. 
It was on target. What can change, right? 

Punching a trigger, breathing through the shot, anticipating recoil, flinching, any movement have no effect on crossbows? Are these weapons so advanced that they are immune to a hunter who is shaky and breathing heavy from excitement? Not all hunters have flawless form. 

I don't understand why you're so upset about this. Most responsible hunters practice. Still confused?


----------



## FDR

Nicko, I have to agree with SEOHbowhunter on this one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to sight in a crossbow. I did it on a couple so far, not very hard, maybe a couple minutes. As for the buck fever or whatever you were getting at, that can happen with any weapon and usually does. But not at a target when your sighting it in.


----------



## nicko

I hear you but I'm not saying setting up the weapon is difficult or the issue at hand. All I'm saying is that in order to shoot *any* weapon accurately, whether it be a bow, rifle, handgun, or crossbow, some level of practice is needed. The example I provided was to illustrate the fact that crossbows are no more immediately ready to hunt than any other weapon. A weapon is only as good as the shooting ability/skills of the person using it. And sighting in and hunting are two completely different situations. Sighting is done in a controlled environment where you have all the time in the world to get things right. But how well does that translate when the hunter has 10 seconds or less to get their marbles together and get off a lethal shot? If a crossbow hunter has to stand and shoot off-hand, anybody who has tried to be accurate from this shooting position with a rifle or slug gun knows how inconsistent the results can be. 

It all comes down to knowing a weapons limitations and your own limitations. This is something that can only be determined with practice. If somebody thinks they can just shoot a few bolts in the bullseye and they are ready to hunt, I just hope for the sake of the animal being hunted they are correct in their assumptions. Misses/wounds happen in hunting regardless of the type of weapon used. But the misses shouldn't occur because somebody didn't take the time to get to know the weapon and what it is capable of.


----------



## Matt Musto

PALongbow said:


> Again you guys are blurring the weapon debate with what is going on here in PA. If the deer harvest increases in archery season we will have no chance of further opportunity. Worse case the season gets shortned...so there is an true impact to having the crossgun approved for use in archery season here in PA.
> 
> Most hunters don't see the true impact because they are too busy embrassing weapon types and all hunters in general and not educating themselves on the potential outcome...
> 
> Ron


This is absolutely correct :thumbs_up. The PA game commision, which is short on funds and short on logically thinking through their harvest goals, will be making a ton of money from archery tag sales. While "thinning the heard" is their reason for introducing X-bows into archery season, they will quickly achieve their goal. This will ultimately shorten the archery season:sad: 

Quick study ran on the property I hunt in 5D. In 2007, 4 people hunted during the archery season 2 with bows and 2 with x-bows. 2 buck were taken and 3 does. Both bucks and 1 doe were killed with bows. In 2008, 9 hunters hunted during the archery season. 2 hunted with a bow and 7 hunted with a x-bow. Five of the x-bow hunters were previously only shotgun hunters. This season 3 deer were killed, one buck and two does, the one doe killed by a bow was taken by me an the other two by x-bow hunters. Four more does and one buck were shot and not recovered....drumroll please.....all by x-bow hunters, and three by one guyukey: Not to mention there was more pressure than the public land I used to hunt and will be hunting more next season. I personally have lost three deer in my life with archery equipment because of poor shot placement/selction, but not for lack of practice. I know for a fact that 4 of the x-bow hunters practiced for one evening toghether to get ready for the season. What a shame:thumbs_do


----------



## BigBirdVA

Matt Musto said:


> Mods, please move this to the CROSSBOW forum. Thank you


No Mods don't. We in the xbow section don't feel the need to discuss it or debate it. And moving it won't make it go away either. 

I remember feeling the same way when our game dept passed xbows here. Several years later nothing has changed and it's no longer even discussed.


----------



## SEOBowhntr

nicko said:


> *I did't compare it shooting a rifle. * *(NO, actually, we BOTH DID, see the RED below!!!!)* You did. I stated a crossbow, like any weapon, requires practice. Just because a weapon is set up doesn't mean you're good to go hunting. If you can set up a bow and shoot it accurately out to 20 yards within an hour, why do you need to practice? The first bow I bought as a ready-to-hunt package came sighted in to 20 yards.
> It was on target. What can change, right?
> 
> Punching a trigger, breathing through the shot, anticipating recoil, flinching, any movement have no effect on crossbows? Are these weapons so advanced that they are immune to a hunter who is shaky and breathing heavy from excitement? Not all hunters have flawless form.
> 
> I don't understand why you're so upset about this. Most responsible hunters practice. Still confused?


I'm not really upset about anything, :noidea: as I stated before, I've used a crossbow to get people in the woods, but they are a very EASY weapon to become proficient with. Getting someone to be proficient with a compound requires far more effort than a crossbow, anyone that denies that has no idea what they are talking about. Take it from a guy experienced with both. I have 2 crossbows, both are equally easy to operate and equally effective as a weapon. I have several compound bows, I'm more accurate with them, and enjoy using them, but I will someday end up using a crossbow when my shoulders are no longer capable of shooting a compound. I'm already at the point that a recurve causes pain, part of why I don't shoot one much anymore.

Trigger punching is going to be a problem if the shooter isn't a very good shooter, but most people I know and have shot with don't have too much of that problem with a gun or crossbow type set up as some archers do using a pressured release. Again, my only point was that it really takes *MINIMAL PRACTIC*E to become proficient with a crossbow.

If you'd read any of what I said in a unbiased manner, you'd not think I was upset or angry, only HONEST. Like I've said, I've used them, and used them to get people in the woods and even get one his first kill. 



nicko said:


> Sorry to break the news to you chumpy but I do know what I'm talking about. My neighbor bought a crossbow this year and the thing was all over the place when he shot it. It didn't like the carbon bolts that came with the package he bought and it didn't like fixed heads either. He had to experiment and *practice* to get the right head-shaft combo down and the sight on target. Have you ever heard of rifles or slug guns that don't like certain loads and bullet weights? Same thing applies. *Practice pal. Practice.*
> 
> *Based upon your statements, it looks like you think shooting a rifle requires no practice to shoot accurately either. You sound like another elitist bowhunter. *
> 
> And no offense taken (by the way, you spelled offense wrong). Might want to *practice* that.


*
Certainly an ELITIST BOWHUNTER wouldn't be taking others to the woods with a crossbow would he????* :noidea: :confused3: 





FDR said:


> Nicko, I have to agree with SEOHbowhunter on this one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to sight in a crossbow. I did it on a couple so far, not very hard, maybe a couple minutes. As for the buck fever or whatever you were getting at, that can happen with any weapon and usually does. But not at a target when your sighting it in.


Very true, buck fever can't be equated and my buddy that got his first ever kill sailed one high and left on a "gimme" shot when it came time to shoot a definite "racked" buck, and buck fever was certainly the culprit in that case. 



nicko said:


> I hear you but I'm not saying setting up the weapon is difficult or the issue at hand. *All I'm saying is that in order to shoot any weapon accurately, whether it be a bow, rifle, handgun, or crossbow, some level of practice is needed. *The example I provided was to illustrate the fact that crossbows are no more immediately ready to hunt than any other weapon. A weapon is only as good as the shooting ability/skills of the person using it. And sighting in and hunting are two completely different situations. Sighting is done in a controlled environment where you have all the time in the world to get things right. But how well does that translate when the hunter has 10 seconds or less to get their marbles together and get off a lethal shot? * If a crossbow hunter has to stand and shoot off-hand, anybody who has tried to be accurate from this shooting position with a rifle or slug gun knows how inconsistent the results can be. *
> 
> It all comes down to knowing a weapons limitations and your own limitations. This is something that can only be determined with practice. If somebody thinks they can just shoot a few bolts in the bullseye and they are ready to hunt, I just hope for the sake of the animal being hunted they are correct in their assumptions. Misses/wounds happen in hunting regardless of the type of weapon used. But the misses shouldn't occur because somebody didn't take the time to get to know the weapon and what it is capable of.


*Not necessarily!!!! * I shoot my rifles a few times a year, tops, and I can any day of the week pull out my 10/22, .22Mag, .25-06, .243, or AK and shot quite accurately at 100yds without any problem. I earholed a coyote at 85yds with the 22Mag on the first time I'd shot it in several months. So in my experience, and that of helping others, I can't really agree. 


And again,* this *comes to the shooter and form. I had my nephew shoot off-hand AND rested before I'd let him go to the woods, making sure he could hit a 3-4" bull at 25yds consistently. If you position yourself right, offhand shooting isn't really that difficult either in my HONEST opinion. Either from my MANY years of shooting (sometimes 1000-1500rds/day to a hundred or so rounds a year nowadays), to my nephew who has only shot when I afforded him an opportunity in my experience it's not that difficult. Too many guys think they need to stretch their arm out I shout with the elbow of the offhand rested against my body allowing a much more stable position, I taught my nephew the same, and he's quite accurate, 9 of 10 shots hitting inside a 4" bull at 25yds before I'd let him go to the woods, and all total, I spent about 30minutes with him shooting a crossbow before he was "proficient (as described above)."


----------



## nicko

Good heavens! One last time, here is what I said*........."FACT - crossbows still need to be shot in practice and are not ready to go right out of the store".*

I didn't say somebody needed to spend the same amount of time shooting a crossbow as a compound. All I said was that there needs to be some level of practice and they are not ready for the woods as soon as they leave the store. I don't know why this statement got you so riled. You say you weren't upset, but go back and read your first reply to my list of crossbow facts. You seemed pretty adamant with all your bold letters and exclamation points. Don't know why you got your britches in a bunch but that's for you to figure out.

As for shooting form, that comes from......you guessed it.........*practice.* I don't understand why this statement is such a big deal for you. All I tried to do was illustrate that crossbows are not the automatic killing machines some people would have you believe. If you want to place some arbitrary threshold on how much shooting time qualifies as practice, then have at it.


----------



## ARCHERYXPERT

Great, As if the woods needed any more lazy PA gun hunters. Lets slide them into archery season as well.


----------



## willie

nicko said:


> .......... If you want to place some arbitrary threshold on how much shooting time qualifies as practice, then have at it.


Then we would have to hire the *Practice Police* to make sure every bowhunter practiced to what is considered adequate. Considered adequate by who? Dunno....

As it stands now *NO ONE* has to practice at all to pick up a bow and go hunting, do they?

A super large majorioty of "bowhunters" hang their bow up at the end of the deer season and don't pick it up agin until a week or two before next season. 

That is the benefit of shooting and hunting with a compound bow. Shooting a compound bow is like riding a bicycle. If you haven't done it for awhile, you might be a little rusty, but you don't forget how. 

I do practice with all my hunting tools...


----------



## willie

" Mathews Apex 7, Mathews Apex ,Easton Acc's 3/49's, Easton Fatboys, CBE lite, Shrewd 4x scope, Carter Juz Cuz, Tru Ball Short n Sweet "

Are you taking the "lazy way out" too?

There are MUCH more difficult ways to bowhunt. Why take short cuts?


----------



## pa drenalin

2. You go get a top end crossbow and practice up. Then let me know when yo are ready to get your hat handed to you by a compound in a Vegas round.




do you under stand what i wrote it does take any skill to shoot a crossbow like it does with a compound bow i dont shoot a crossbow i shoot a compound


----------



## willie

pa drenalin said:


> 2. You go get a top end crossbow and practice up. Then let me know when yo are ready to get your hat handed to you by a compound in a Vegas round.
> 
> do you under stand what i wrote it does take any skill to shoot a crossbow like it does with a compound bow i dont shoot a crossbow i shoot a compound


Then take him up on it....

If it doesn't take any skill why cant the top crossbws shooter get anywhere close to the top scores in any tournament that they share with compound shooters?

Skill is putting the arrow where you want it to go, isn't it?


----------



## SEOBowhntr

nicko said:


> Good heavens! One last time, here is what I said*........."FACT - crossbows still need to be shot in practice and are not ready to go right out of the store".*
> 
> I didn't say somebody needed to spend the same amount of time shooting a crossbow as a compound. All I said was that there needs to be some level of practice and they are not ready for the woods as soon as they leave the store. I don't know why this statement got you so riled. You say you weren't upset, but go back and read your first reply to my list of crossbow facts. You seemed pretty adamant with all your bold letters and exclamation points. Don't know why you got your britches in a bunch but that's for you to figure out.
> 
> As for shooting form, that comes from......you guessed it.........*practice.* I don't understand why this statement is such a big deal for you. All I tried to do was illustrate that crossbows are not the automatic killing machines some people would have you believe. If you want to place some arbitrary threshold on how much shooting time qualifies as practice, then have at it.



It's okay Nicko, we'll just have to "agree to disagre," because to me shooting a weapon enough to sight it in and then shoot a few extra shot to verify it's consistent really isn't as much "practice" as it is a "sight-in." But alas if we want to call 3 shots before a kill shot "3 PRACTICE SHOTS," then that is fine, I'll agree. I think the point is, they are a very easy to use weapon, though they may not be nearly as capable as a compound in the right hands, they are very easily set-up and made into capable killing weapons. Again, I've benefitted from this because I've been able to put friends and family in the woods at a time they otherwise wouldn't get out there, so I'm not "Anti-Crossbow," by any means, but I do believe that many people are missing a much more enjoyable means of hunting and a great hobby in archery by shooting crossbows rather than compounds or trad-bows. And yes, until my shoulders were severely depleted, I did shoot a recurve at least a couple times a week. 

Good Hunting....:thumbs_up


----------



## Matt Musto

BigBirdVA said:


> No Mods don't. We in the xbow section don't feel the need to discuss it or debate it. And moving it won't make it go away either.
> 
> I remember feeling the same way when our game dept passed xbows here. Several years later nothing has changed and it's no longer even discussed.


Why is there a crossbow section on this site? Because people who shoot archery equipment don't want to talk about crossbows. That forum is an intrusion on this site just as crossbows are becoming throughout the US. 

The reason nothing has changed in your state is the fact that there are only 175,000 hunters to begin with. You have nearly as many deer as PA and 1/5 the amount of hunters of PA. Its a totally different scenario. And did you notice once this got moved no one is paying attention to it? Because there are only ever 6 people viewing the crossbow forum:thumbs_do


----------



## SteveB

> Why is there a crossbow section on this site? Because people who shoot archery equipment don't want to talk about crossbows.


Foolish answer - why is there a Fita, Traditional, etc section? According to your argument, they must not be archery either? 



> The reason nothing has changed in your state is the fact that there are only 175,000 hunters to begin with. You have nearly as many deer as PA and 1/5 the amount of hunters of PA. Its a totally different scenario.


The old "my state is different, that's why historical facts don'r matter" whine.
An arguement based on emotion only.



> And did you notice once this got moved no one is paying attention to it? Because there are only ever 6 people viewing the crossbow forum


Actually it was moved to the legislation section where few visit - try to pay attention.

Steve


----------



## BigBirdVA

Matt Musto said:


> Why is there a crossbow section on this site? Because people who shoot archery equipment don't want to talk about crossbows. That forum is an intrusion on this site just as crossbows are becoming throughout the US.
> 
> The reason nothing has changed in your state is the fact that there are only 175,000 hunters to begin with. You have nearly as many deer as PA and 1/5 the amount of hunters of PA. Its a totally different scenario. And did you notice once this got moved no one is paying attention to it? Because there are only ever 6 people viewing the crossbow forum:thumbs_do













Get over it. It's a done deal. 
Next year at this time you'll see your worries were unfounded.


BTW get your numbers right too. 

http://www.mcall.com/sports/outdoors/all-berg.6610092sep30,0,7442418.column

Pay attention to the falling number of hunters totals. You might want those xbow numbers added in one day.


----------



## Moon

*I see Matt is bouncing off the walls*

all over the place.............telling people on the Crossbow forum they don't know what they are talking about, coming on this forum and telling mods to move his whining to the crossbow forum while insinuating he knows more about Virgnia's crossbow hunting than Bird, Yeah, right!!! Matt, cool off man. Your butt will be getting old if you live long enough and it comes a lot quicker than you may realize. That evil crossbow that is ruining bowhunting (according to you) may be the only thing to keep you bowhunting one day:icon_1_lol: if crossbows have not already killed bowhunting What an idiotic arguement.


----------



## Dchiefransom

vtec1 said:


> Rory/MO said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same could be said about that compound you're shooting.
> 
> The act of pulling back a bow in the heat of the moment, regardless of traditional or compound takes the game to a whole other level. Compared to sitting in a stand with your rifle I mean crossbow cocked, sorry big difference. Like I stated, my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sitting in a tree off the ground or shooting from inside a tent takes the game to a whole other level also. I don't hear people getting upset about that.
> If they allowed crossbows in the archery season in California, I might actually see another hunter during archery season.
Click to expand...


----------



## ARCHERYXPERT

I really dont have any problems with crossbows being used for deer season. Its just NOT ARCHERY. I dont see how anyone can argue that point. Understanding that is the key. Crossbows belong in Gun and/or Muzzleloader season it is that simple. PA put it into archery season for one simple reason to MAKE MONEY. Anyone doubting that is just ignorant. To be honest It wont even effect me all that much I hunt in a special regs area around Pittsburgh and crossbows have been authorized in those area's for awhile. But the fact still remains that crossbows are not really archery at all.


----------



## rt2bowhunter

I was out bow hunting before it was cool. Will to be honest when i started hunting cool meant it was getting chilly.I have even made my own bows and strings even took feathers off my turkeys for fletching. Yea i have shot compounds also.But you guys need to lessen you will get old you may get hurt. And when it happens and your setting in the woods and think i cant do this any more. And this thing called a xbow will let me spend a few years doing this, it may not be quite as bad. Yea they will be several guys say im getting a xbow and killing me a deer that never bowhunted. You guys no what they are going to hear and see a snort and a flag. And one more thing that struck me as odd.I have read several post on AT that say xbows need there own season. But its never been before always after just wondered why. I think that people that are old or hurt should be first dont you.


----------



## ARCHERYXPERT

rt2bowhunter said:


> I was out bow hunting before it was cool. Will to be honest when i started hunting cool meant it was getting chilly.I have even made my own bows and strings even took feathers off my turkeys for fletching. Yea i have shot compounds also.But you guys need to lessen you will get old you may get hurt. And when it happens and your setting in the woods and think i cant do this any more. And this thing called a xbow will let me spend a few years doing this, it may not be quite as bad. Yea they will be several guys say im getting a xbow and killing me a deer that never bowhunted. You guys no what they are going to hear and see a snort and a flag. And one more thing that struck me as odd.I have read several post on AT that say xbows need there own season. But its never been before always after just wondered why. I think that people that are old or hurt should be first dont you.


In PA the elderly/disabled could always get Dr.s note and use a crossbow. So that particular agument for crossbows really is void.


----------



## Cold Weather

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> I really dont have any problems with crossbows being used for deer season. Its just NOT ARCHERY. I dont see how anyone can argue that point. Understanding that is the key. Crossbows belong in Gun and/or Muzzleloader season it is that simple. PA put it into archery season for one simple reason to MAKE MONEY. Anyone doubting that is just ignorant. To be honest It wont even effect me all that much I hunt in a special regs area around Pittsburgh and crossbows have been authorized in those area's for awhile. But the fact still remains that crossbows are not really archery at all.


not archery-sure. Funny, some say that about compounds. How would something that is obvious not a gun or a muzzleloader, belong in those respective seasons?

genius... 

Cold Weather


----------



## aceoky

ARCHERYXPERT said:


> In PA the elderly/disabled could always get Dr.s note and use a crossbow. So that particular agument for crossbows really is void.



REALLY?

NOT quite true, there were many "hurdles" and much red tape and even then MANY who needed them could not get them, there are over 60,000 permit holders in PA prior to this, NOW they won't have to do that (the new folks) OR spend the $$ to do so, and just as importantly the PA BOC and WCO won't have to "police" them any longer either, putting their $$$ to where it does the most good for PA Hunters.....



> I really dont have any problems with crossbows being used for deer season. Its just NOT ARCHERY. I dont see how anyone can argue that point.


Let's examine that shall we......A crossbow IN FACT:

*Propels an arrow by means of energy stored in bent limbs released via a BOW string........*

IF that "is not archery" (as you claim) what DOES "archery" do in your opinion?? What "IS" archery if not the actual definition?

I don't see how anyone (who wishes to maintain their credibility could argue otherwise with NO facts to support them) but hey that's "just me" :darkbeer:


----------

