# Arrow Shelf...does this still work?



## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

What they're referring to when they say a "bump" is to create a single point of contact on the arrow rest and strike plate for the arrow to touch. The idea is to limit the amount of bow that can come in contact with the arrow as it's being shot. In a sense, you want to create two triangles so that the arrow only touches the point of each. One on the shelf and the other on the strike plate. Many bows have a shelf and riser that are rounded to facilitate this. For the strike plate it needs the same sort of minimal contact but you also need to build it out so it positions the arrow correctly. If you take an arrow and put it on the string, look at it from behind while centering the string on the riser. The arrow TIP should be sitting at least one arrow width to the right of the string for your left handed setup. It will point right of center which is needed for a left handed trad setup. Since your riser is cut well past center the arrow will either point center or even left of center (really bad) if the strike plate isn't pushing it out to where it needs to be. That's where the term "build out" comes from. 

You've got way to much bow real estate for the arrow to be deflected from while being shot. Get those two fixed and you should see a huge improvement in arrow placement and tune.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Rancho leads you properly where you need to go. 

With both shelf and side plate that long and flat, there are six fulcrums available to the shaft no matter where you place the nock locator: over the shelf's back edge, dead flat across the flat piece, or over the belly edge. The same would go for the long, flat side-plate. This scattered combo of fulcrums is too "digital" for good tuning as your shaft's adjustments are alternating over the back or the belly of the either the shelf or side plate, and may explain repeated frustration no matter what you try. 

With a "bump" as described above, both on the shelf and side plate, you'll obtain a single and matching fulcrum at each area for your shaft to rest. A nock locator adjustment will allow the shaft to remain upon both evenly-matched fulcrums and remove the "digital" front/back mismatch from the equation. Happiness should come quickly. 

A simple piece of leather for each area with a piece of matchstick, toothpick, or leather shoelace placed under it for the "bump" should do the trick. Barge cement is good, contact cement works, too. You can double the leather or make a bigger bump under it if you need more beef to get your side plate out where Rancho indicates it needs to be for your shaft's outboard offset to the right side (an eyeball directly down the shaft's nock end to the tip with the string centered on the middle point of the limbs will give you this information). 

It will become very obvious and really easy to rig once you eyeball some dry runs with your bumping material. 

Good luck.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

That makes perfect sense now, thanks guys! It's been driving me absolutely batty to the point I was thinking something is wrong with my mind 😱

That 6 fulcrums thing was a real light bulb moment that explains a lot of the sometime this and sometimes that effect. Maybe my form really isn't that bad after all! 

A matchstick thickness is good enough for the bottom. As for the left, the arrow tip now points to the LEFT so I got quite a bit of "building up" to do. I'll try this out tomorrow and see what happens.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Hope it works out. You can also use a very inexpensive stick-on elevated rest, such as the Bear Weather Rest or the Hoyt Super or Hunter rests (or similar) to accomplish the same thing. 

Locate all parts "dry" and eyeball the shaft location first, and then glue or stick on when satisfied. The stick-on rests usually come with an extra adhesive strip to thicken the side area if needed. These elevated rests are the bee's knees and can perform their task marvelously if you are not satisfied with the manual building via leather and bumping, especially on a bow with flat shelf and side plate areas.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

Not a tuning expert but looking at your shelf rest it looks pretty thick. Could that drive your nocking point to be higher then you would think? As for the strike plate yes building in or out to help correct for spine.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

You're going to get a lot of opinions Zu, but looking at your pics, here are a few things that stick out to me.









First of all, I don't know what kind of bow that is, but it appears that it was designed to be shot off an elevated rest, with a cushion plunger. If it was designed (tillered) for that, look how far below the intended arrow height you are when shooting directly off the shelf. 

Second, the width of your shelf is VERY wide, making clearance issues a problem unless your arrows are tuned perfectly, and the flex of your arrow takes your arrow and fletching outside of your shelf. It actually appears as though edge of the shelf has been modified (reduced) to accommodate this issue. Your shelf is also flat (not radiused) which means there is going to be much more potential contact with your arrow shaft and fletching along the entire length of the shelf. 

Having said all that, can your bow be tuned so you can get good arrow flight off the shelf? Yes. However, because of the way it was designed, there is much less room for error, making it MUCH more difficult to achieve good arrow flight.

You mentioned in your first post that you might try a furniture pad on the shelf. In my opinion, that would be an EXCELLENT idea. It accomplishes a number different things. First of all, it lifts your arrow a little closer to where your bow was designed to be shot. Second, it in effect makes your shelf much narrower (the width of the pad) and eliminates much of your side to side and front to back contact issues.

Take a look at my shelf setup. Even though mine is a metal riser, the shelf design is not unlike yours...flat, wide and ripe for arrow shaft contact.









By lifting the arrow sheft up off the wide, flat shelf, you in effect make the "new" shelf only the size of the pad, eliminating most areas of potential contact. 

Works like a charm, makes for easy tuning, and wears like iron.

Hope that helps.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I hadn't noticed before that it had a plunger hole and it was for a raised rest. That would certainty explain your nock issues


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Ah so! I always wondered what that hole was for. So I measured the dimensions of those marks you made. The height from shelf to centre of hole is 1". The thickness of the rest itself is slightly more than 1/8". The width of shelf is about 1" too. 

I like the way the furniture pads work. How thick should I go for the side plate? I'm assuming I need to go fairly thick for the shelf itself. 

Thinman, I read some excellent posts from you about this subject in my searches. I might try an elevated rest if this doesn't work. I remember you said you had a browning with the same issue?

The bow is a Browning...not sure what model. It's a takedown recurve with the limbs attached to the rear (face?) of the riser, making for the riser being forward of the limbs. Some people say it looks like a widow.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

I wouldn't use a furniture pad for a strike plate. The "strike" plate has that name for a reason. The arrow puts pressure on it during the release. The distance the arrow is held away from the bow needs to be maintained and it needs to be a specific thickness otherwise you'll get a lot of false spine indications. Many bows have what you've got there. The option to shoot from an elevated rest and plunger or off the shelf. The easiest way to go might be to buy a rest/plunger to put on. Without knowing how far the riser is cut past center it will be difficult to say whether you will need separate plunger or not. You MIGHT be able to get away with just a stick on rest. The cut is the distance from the bows center as measured from the center of the limbs to the surface of riser where the arrow makes contact on the riser. You can get an idea by putting an arrow on the string with your strike plate removed and pin the arrow against the riser. Looking from the rear. Align the string to the limb's center and look where the arrow points. For a LH bow if it points left, it's cut well past center and you will need a plunger. If it's pointing left you might be able to get away with just a stick on rest.









In this pic it shows what the offset should like if the strike plate or plunger is doing it's job correctly. This is a Right Hand bow so yours will be just the opposite with the arrow pointing right of center.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

zu! said:


> I like the way the furniture pads work. How thick should I go for the side plate? I'm assuming I need to go fairly thick for the shelf itself.


That would all depend on your particular bow, and how far past center the riser is cut, how stiff your arrows are, etc.. Mine is cut quite a ways past center, probably more so than yours, so I doubt you'd need your side plate to be as thick as mine.

They make the pads in a variety of shapes and thicknesses so I would get a variety and start thin and work your way out. If I had to guess, I'm betting your side plate would take about a 5mm or 3/16" pad. 

Mine is a 1/4" pad on both the shelf and side plate.

People tend to think that the reason I leave a space between the two pads is to provide a channel for my lower hen feather to pass through. That's not the case. First of all, I shoot cock feather in, so no feather is passes through that area anyway. I leave a space there for the simple reason that a full width pad is just a little too thick and with the space, it allows the shaft to sit right where I want it to. (you can see what I mean by this illustration) 









It took a little trial and error to get it exactly the way I wanted it but it works great for me...and that's all that matters.

:wink:

KPC


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

A correction to the above post. If your arrow is pointing right when looking at it from behind you might be ok with just a stick on rest.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Looks like Rancho and I were typing at the same time.


With all due respect, I'm going to have to disagree with the following.

*"I wouldn't use a furniture pad for a strike plate. The "strike" plate has that name for a reason. The arrow puts pressure on it during the release. The distance the arrow is held away from the bow needs to be maintained and it needs to be a specific thickness otherwise you'll get a lot of false spine indications."*

If this were the case, nobody would have been able to successfully get good arrow flight without a cushion plunger. We all know that's not the case. People have been doing it for decades. A cushion plunger does allow for more precise micro-tuning , center shot adjustment, and the ability to shoot a wider spine range, but it is certainly not necessary. Not everyone wants to shoot with a cushion plunger, for a whole variety of reasons. 

Interestingly enough, the felt pad does give (compress) a little, so it is actually better than just a leather side plate, as it does absorb some of the flex of the arrow. As you can see in the following video, most of the arrow flex is outward, not inward, and what flex is inward just after release, the felt pad actually helps to absorb.






KPC


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Gerep, I'm probably being overly picky about everything and looking at worse case over the long haul. A pad can work for a while but there are limitations. If the spine of the arrow is near perfect for the bow and the poundage of the bow low it can pass. A plunger provides a variable amount of counter force to the paradox of the arrow which can be adjusted to the arrow being used. With a pad, your stuck with what ever level of compression resistance it has. The movement of the pad or punger inward toward the riser changes center shot. A plunger collapsing is for one reason only. To allow the arrow to weaken it's spine affect for an intentional reason. That's getting down into very fine tuning and not really applicable to most people since it's generally best for the plunger not to move at all. 

Plungers can be had for as little as 10.00 and is probably worth it. A pad will wear out over time with the arrow rubbing up against it. He'll need to remember to replace it after X number of shots on a regular basis in order to maintain shot consistency. Otherwise center shot will drift and cause his arrows to start impacting left. Unless the person knows to check that it will get very frustrating since the first inclination for bad shots is to examine ourselves. Chasing ghosts isn't fun when it comes to archery. Then again. if he only shoots once in while, the pad might last for a year or so. If he shoots frequently, that's a different ball of wax.


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## robbydh (Mar 12, 2014)

Sometimes if your nock point is too low you will get tail high from the way the arrow bends when it is driven into the riser. Also, could be a release issue, try different finger pressures and see how it affects your arrow flight. It probably don't help that you are shooting off some old freaking dinosaur hair arrow rest lol.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Rancho:

Believe me, I understand the purpose of cushion plunger. What you need to understand is that many people CHOOSE to shoot off the shelf, without any mechanical aids, for a variety of reasons.

Second, those who choose to shoot off the shelf, accept the limitations of that shooting style, and knowingly accept that they will likely not be able to engage in some of the micro-tuning techniques that a cushion plunger allows. It's a different style, with different challenges, and different limits, and therefore is a completely different class when it comes to competition. 

Yes, pads can and do wear over time...just like the nylon caps on a cushion plunger, as well as the nylon sleeves that cover a wire flipper style rest. The more your setup is out of tune, or the more inconsistent your release, the more friction those parts will be subject to, and the quicker they will wear. 

If your shafts aren't too stiff to begin with, there will be very little contact with the pads at all, and they will last a long, long time. Much longer than any other shelf and side plate material I have ever used. 

I've been shooting them for years, thousands upon thousands of shots between replacements, and get excellent arrow flight.

Yes, using a cushion plunger and an elevated rest can be more accurate, and more forgiving of shooter error. The same is true for shooing a scoped, center fire rifle compared to shooing a muzzleloader with a patched round ball and open sights. But different people choose different styles of equipment for different reasons, in spite of, and sometimes because of their inherent limitations.

It's a little like telling a handgun enthusiast to just shoot a rifle because it's more accurate.

Case in point: I notice in your signature line that you shoot a Hoyt Buffalo, and what I am assuming is a Samick Devastator. Why would you shoot those when neither are tapped to accept a cushion plunger?

KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

ranchoarcher said:


> A correction to the above post. If your arrow is pointing right when looking at it from behind you might be ok with just a stick on rest.


Rancho, the arrow is pointing RIGHT on my bow, WITH a stick on rest (furniture pad).


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

zu! said:


> Rancho, the arrow is pointing RIGHT on my bow, WITH a stick on rest (furniture pad).


zu:

Understand, much of what you read here are generalizations. They are starting points, and every specific setup is going to be a little different depending on a person's exact shooting style, their specific equipment, arrow spine, and individual tuning preferences.

Sorry for the poor phone picture, but I think the following illustrates my point.









On my particular setup, I prefer to shoot an arrow shaft that is marginally stiff, and my centershot is almost exactly centered. "Conventional wisdom" states that I should have my arrow pointing slightly left of center (for a right hand shooter) or slightly right of center (for a left hand shooter). Even so, I find that for my particular setup, this happens to works best...for me.

At the end of the day, it takes experimentation. "Conventional wisdom" will usually get you close, sometimes very close, but then it takes trial and error to dial things in to your own personal preference.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that a lot of archers, especially new archers, get so wrapped up in doing things exactly they way they read were told it "should be" in a book or on the internet. For a variety of reasons, when that particular setup doesn't work, they get frustrated and think there is something wrong with either them or their equipment. 

Sometimes all it takes is a little centershot adjustment, tiller adjustment (if possible), or a nock height adjustment, or second nock set, a skinnier string, switching from a glove to a tab, and the list goes on and on. Sometimes even the size and placement of your string silencers, or how you grip your bow can make a substantial difference. Sometimes experimenting with these things can literally be the difference between a piece of dung bow and the holy grail of bows. 

This is just my opinion of course, but I suspect that many of the folks that are constantly switching, trading, and buying new equipment in an attempt to actually find that *"holy grail", *would be much better off just experimenting with what they have. Many of them don't realize it but *they already had the holy grail*...a number of times, they just didn't have it set up right for *their particular shooting style* and preferences. Thousands of dollars later, unless they happen to luck into a great "conventional wisdom" setup, they are still searching. 

We aren't all machines, and we don't all shoot the same. What works for me and my style might not work for rancher and his style. You need to be willing to experiment, and even try things that might not necessarily be the way they are "supposed" to be. Sometimes you prove that "conventional wisdom" was right, and sometimes you prove just the opposite...for you. 

KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation KPC. To a point, it is an accurate description of me as a new archer. Thanks to the internet, a huge pool of wisdom and experience is made available to us newbies starting out. It can be both daunting and confusing though - as you pointed out - as we try every thing out there to try to catch the elusive holy grail. 

I'm pretty sure I have the holy grail right in my hands though! When I first got the bow, it came with 6 wood arrows that were grossly overspined for the bow. I knew nothing of spine and etc and just shot it. With no-one telling me I was doing wrong, I was getting groups that were tennis ball sized at 20 yards, with this first time trying. True, they were not consistently tennis ball sized, but more often than not, they were in the x-ring. The shafts? When measured at the shop, they were 65# spined. My bow is 40# at 28 and I draw a 28 as measured at a pro shop. 

Then I got new shafts that were properly spined for the bow. 50-55# at 28 was what I needed. The trouble started only when I did bareshafting. I then learned about brace height and nock height, and now arrow rests. Truth be told, without the internet, I think I would still be shooting those stiff ones, lol!! Oh, but then I broke almost all of them shooting the 3D course. 

Anyways, I did manage to try a few shots with the furniture pads. Maybe I was tired or maybe my mind is clouded with too many "what-ifs", but the groups didn't improve. I DID manage to get the bareshafts closer vertically, by dropping the nock height to 3/8ths. But then, for some inexplicable reason, they started dropping down again...like way below the fletched. Oddly, the fletched shafts are now shooting higher and stiffer (right of target) than before. 

I decided to stop. Tomorrow, I'll see if I can pick up a Bear Weather rest or maybe the Hoyt hunter and give it a shot. If the local shops don't have it (very possible, as they seem to mostly cater to compounds) I might have to order it online. Whatever the case, I will try with thinner furniture pads, or maybe with velcro and matchsticks. It is, after all, a search for the holy grail for which I will leave no stone unturned!!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

You know what's kind of funny zu? 

I know a number of people that were quite successful for decades...right up until they read somewhere that what they were doing wouldn't work. Then, for some reason what has been working for decades, miraculously wouldn't work any more.

:wink:

One last thing I would like to mention about the whole tuning, bear shaft, group testing thing.

Unless you are using a sight and your form is fantastic, very few of us (and yes, I include myself in that group) are actually good enough, and consistent enough to derive much from examining "groups." Tuning for good arrow flight is one thing, but until I am good enough to cover every shot in a group with a 50 cent piece, how in the heck am I going to know if I'm actually grouping 2", low or 2" to the right? When you're shooting 6-8 inch groups to begin with, how in the heck are you going to determine that this particular group, or that particular group is the norm, and what you need to do to adjust it. It truly becomes a dog chasing his tail situation.

In my opinion, (and it's only my opinion) those of us who shoot "traditional" or barebow off the shelf, (especially those without a formal aiming system) should basically tune for good arrow flight...*period.* Once their arrows flying right, where they hit is going to be completely up to the archer and not the equipment. Good arrow flight is good arrow flight. Beyond that, the "adjustment" has to be more about the archer and less about the equipment.

KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Hahahah! I know exactly what you're talking about!! KPC, let me tell you, when I was in my early 20's, me and three buddies - we were best drinking buddies - decided one day to try GOLF! Yes, that was back in the day when golf was only played by old men driving Mercedes. One of my buddies dad was a really good golfer and kept bugging his son to join him, so we thought what the heck, lets go to the driving range and try this silly game. 

Well, on my first shot, I hit the 100 yard board. Then on my 2nd shot, I tried VERY HARD to hit the 100 yard board and BANG it did! It was metal, so it made a loud sound. We hooped and hoorayed and someone ordered the next jug of beer. Yep, we could drink on the driving range. We had lots of fun. 

Pretty soon, it became our favourite pastime. We'd go there, and bet money on who could hit the 100, 150 or even 200 yard boards....on command. Sometimes to make it harder, we'd call the club too. 

Then one day, my buddy brought this dad. He took one look at us swinging and said....boys, I like your enthusiasm, but you're not going to get anywhere playing golf like that. Your stance is all wrong, your swing is wild etc etc etc. We looked at each other and thought, geez, we should take lessons. 

Short story is....as far as I know, only ONE of the four of us still plays golf. Yep, the one whose dad was good at it. The rest of us gave up soon after taking lessons. I for one, after "learning" how to swing correctly, developed a wicked hook shot...something which I had never even knew the name for. I could never hit the 100 yard board again, let alone the 200. But at least I knew how to swing it right, lol!! Since moving to Canada, I live in an area surrounded by golf course...and have never picked up my clubs again. 

I'm hoping it never gets to that point with archery. You're right, my form is most likely part of the problem. I need to learn to relax and just have fun...maybe even throw in a couple of beers (well, wine now, these days) into the mix. Might be better for me!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm ALL about proper form. I am a firm believer that without proper, repeatable form, you are only going to progress so far. 

What I was getting at is that as good as we try to be, we need to be honest with ourselves. No matter how much we like to think we are, once proper arrow flight is achieved, very few of us are capable of outshooting what that provides. The micro-tuning stuff is for a game that us "traditional" guys just don't play.

It amazes me when I see someone at the range obsessing over cerntershot, tip weight, FOC, and tiller, plunger tension, and a whole host of other things, when they don't even reach the same anchor on two out of five shots.



KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

I understand where you're coming from KPC and yes, I will definitely not give up on form. I'm a fan of Aikido and totally understand the mechanics of form and how it can make all the difference in making something work well, and not work at all. At this stage in my archery game, I'm not going to dive into equipment or obsess over how to get a simple thing like my nock height right. But I am going to try to get my nock height right for me and the bow I have! And if it takes a rest, or another furniture pad, I'll give it a go. And yes, I'm gonna have to work on my anchor too


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

Your original question…“does this still work?”…is actually long past due…and was likely questionable from the start. Myself, I would have removed the old stuff as soon as the bow came in the door…and would have replaced it before shooting the first arrow. I could not expect reliable results any other way.

As mentioned, the flat shelf is working against you…and placing a bump under the shelf material should limit the amount of surface for the arrow to make contact. The strike plate on the side of the window also needs attention…but that’s kind of a different matter, as others have mentioned. Personally, I also often place a bit of a bump under the strike plate material as well…to limit contact. But, bows that have a radiused (curved) window tend to negate the need for a bump…as would a bow with a radiused shelf negate the need in that department, too.

Anyhow…I don’t see any choice but to head down that road, wherever it may lead.

On other “practical” matters…I doubt I’ll ever stop calling this “the too much information age”. Countless people have become proficient with equipment many would consider primitive by "today’s standards"(?)…and such equipment is still in use. Variables with such equipment tend not to go much beyond basics…and a good measure of (archery) “common” sense applies to “guideline”-type information.

That said, there ain’t a dang thing that can’t be examined to exhaustion…nor a possibility related to equipment that has stopped evolving. Fine and dandy, I’ve always considered much of this and that as most worthy of the title “traditional”…but, also thanks to the internet, I’ve never heard such an epidemic of confusion and/or frustration.

There are all types of disciplines and objectives that fall under the heading of “archery”…but I tend not to think that most people starting down this particular road, with equipment acquired here and there, as being intent on winning the next Olympics. On the other hand, I do consider it far too unfortunate that there are so many, who have yet to acquire “reasonable” proficiency, using similar “choices” of equipment, have already managed to put an animal on the ground…in the next hunting season.

And, I suppose, what’s driving this little rant (…aside from it’s being Monday) is that it can be very difficult to take into consideration all the types of bows and all the different disciplines involved when giving or receiving advice over the internet. IMO, it’s not that remedies/courses-of-action are all that difficult…it’s just that implementing them often means reducing matters to a common theme…and then doing some trial and error. Were matters handled face to face, I would have resolved the shelf/strike plate issue over one cup of coffee…got you shooting and discussed “reasonable expectations” over the second cup (…of course, choice of beverage would be subject to the time of day).

Good Luck…shoot lots of arrows…and Enjoy, Rick.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Rick, I like your style! I wish I had somebody whom I could've sat down over a cup of coffee (depending on time of day) and chatted with about the shelf/strike plate. Ah, but that's what we have the internets for! I think most of the guys at the club were mostly concerned with my form or lack thereof...equipment being last on their minds. 

I'm glad I brought it up here now. I've learnt about the bump, furniture pads, Bear weather rest etc. Heck, before now, I didn't even know it was called and "arrow rest" or "elevated rest". That's why my thread title was "Does THIS still work?" I really didn't know what the heck it was called...besides "the shelf" that is, lol! Now, knowing these phrases, I can conduct searches and trawl the 'net for info. 

So yup, I'm experimenting now, and shooting lots of arrows, hopefully working on better form, release et al. As for better equipment, well, I really like this old bow. Maybe just needs some more love!


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

Just wanted to say there is some A1 advice in here GEREP. I believe trying to take in and understand what is going on during paradox, and then applying it to your own riser and shooting is one of the most complicated matters in equipment.

To other members who posted info here as well, this is a nice comprehensive thread on the matter.:thumbs_up


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Just a quick update...I tried the furniture rests and they didn't quite get me where I wanted. So anyways, on the way home I picked up a Bear Weather Rest...amazing! My bareshafts were no longer hitting low, and they were really close to my fletched shafts. 

No pixes of the shafts, but the bareshafts were basically ON TARGET, whilst the fletched were to the right of the target! I'll have to work at it a little more. A minor effect is the bareshafts now seeming to kick to the rights they approach the target. 

But the main thing is...they were on the same plane!!! Finally!!!

A minor issue with the weather rest though. After just 50 shots, it looked like this. What's your experience?


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

zu! said:


> Rancho, the arrow is pointing RIGHT on my bow, WITH a stick on rest (furniture pad).


That's what it should be doing By the pics of your bow it looked like it might be well beyond center shot making the task difficult. You lucked out. The question now is, how much right? Using that pic I posted of the red bow look at yours the same way. If it looks a lot like that (with your arrow to the right) then you're pretty close to optimal. It may seem weird to have the shaft pointing off center but it's necessary in order to get an arrow to tune correctly. 

When you release the string is going to kick to the right out of your hand. That's going to put leftward pressure on the strike plate from the arrow. With the arrow right the release doesn't throw the arrow left off your riser. There is a balance between your release and the arrow spine which is what tuning does. See the video Gerep posted and note the string movement at the moment of release. If you were to set your arrow on center shot every arrow when bare shafted would show weak since they'd all go left on release. You get super stiff arrows but then you'd be shooting a heavier arrow than you need to. In order to use center you'd either need to use a mechanical release (like a compound) or have some really quick fingers to get out of the way of the string. This varies from person to person since no two people have the same reflex speed, draw weight, AMO length, and experience.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

I would try shelf shooting first. The arrow is closer to the hand and changes the bow geo a bit which may affect tiller?

IF you try off the shelf avoid a big soft side plate. I now believe you need a small contact point at the side plate...like a plunger tip or length of match stick under leather, velcro, etc.

I just experienced a huge improvement with a Excel rest setup. The side plate was to big and soft and arrows were low and right AND not grouping. The side plate was to soft, as I used the thick soft Hoyt stick on pad that came with the riser. It probably wobbled side to side (Yaw)? Went to a plunger and elevated wood shelf (rather than a low furniture pad shelf) and all is back to normal.

The large soft side plate was allowing the arrows to go weak/right? And the low furniture pad shelf was allowing fletch and shaft contact on the riser's metal shelf edge? I did loose a lot of Black Out off of the side of the shelf I thought was due to the glue used to attach the wood shelf. It may have been shaft contact? A plunger is a small consistent point of contact. I should have checked, more carefully, for shaft contact on the shelf bevel/"huge shelf panel"?

















Good Luck!


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

zu! said:


> Just a quick update...I tried the furniture rests and they didn't quite get me where I wanted. So anyways, on the way home I picked up a Bear Weather Rest...amazing! My bareshafts were no longer hitting low, and they were really close to my fletched shafts.
> 
> No pixes of the shafts, but the bareshafts were basically ON TARGET, whilst the fletched were to the right of the target! I'll have to work at it a little more. A minor effect is the bareshafts now seeming to kick to the rights they approach the target.
> 
> ...



You've still got some issues going on. First, the easy one. Those plastic rests can wear out real quick unless you give them a dose of armor platting. For two reasons. One it maintains the centershot offset and makes the rest last practialy forever. Take a soda can and cut a very tiny piece of the aluminum just big enough to fit in the groove created by the arrow. You'll want to shape it to fit as tight as possible. Use a very small amount of super glue to attach it. Make it a perfect fit!! I did this to a $2.00 rest and it lasted several thousand arrows and is still going strong. 

The second is your bare shaft. Actually your arrows might be a little weak or the strike plate isn't applying enough offset. I'm trying to think in reverse of RH here so a mistake might happen. It depends on how far left your bare shafts are hitting from the fletched and what range your shooting from. If it's a couple inches and your at 10 yards or further, it's close enough to call it good. If not, you can do one of two things. If the offset is less than an arrow width as shown in the pic I posted you might try cutting a piece of double sided tape to the shape of your rest and adding that to the back of it to give you a little more offset. Another option would be to use lighter tips which will increase the dynamic spine of the arrow and have them come right a little bit.

Ultimately what your shooting for is for the fletched arrow to land where you point it. If it's going left then your spine is weak (LH shooting). Right, it's too stiff. Adjusting tip weight and strike plate are two ways of trying to make the arrows you have work. If that doesn't fix it you may end up having to get new arrows.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I'm going to back out of this one zu. You're getting advice and recommendations that are different than what I would offer, and I don't want to confuse the situation any more than it has been.

Just out of curiosity though, what shaft material are you using? I don't remember reading whether it was wood, aluminum, or carbon.

KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for participating KPC. I'm experimenting now and trying out all options. I might very well go back to furniture pads in the future...weseward likes it too and it works for him. I might try dusting my shelf with talcum powder and see if I'm getting shaft contact there. I've been researching online and found that most all the weather rests used out there show the same kind of wear as mine. My shafts are wood and I fear that I may have cut them down too much already as they're showing a stiff condition (POI right of target). Or just maybe they're too far off centre? Or, lol, as you say, I'm probably not reaching the same anchor in 3 out of 5 shots!!:embara:

Here're a couple of photos I took this morning.










I have to say folks, I really appreciate the feedback. I didn't have time to shoot many arrows yesterday...just the 50 or so shots, as we were rushing out to watch Captain America (geez, my ears are still ringing!!) but tonight, I'm going to try to get more shots off and see how it goes. Thanks all!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

No problem zu.

Because of your new pics, I will add a few more things in an effort to get you on the right track. 

1. In my opinion, your arrows are pointed *WAY* to far right of center. That setup would require a pretty weak shaft to get around, and even then, the initial flex inward might cause excessive contact. 

2. Unless your wood arrows are all perfectly spined, (and the chance of that is VERY slim with anything but the highest quality, matched, straight, and grain oriented wooden shafts) the chances of you getting them all to flex the same around that rest is pretty unlikely. With your arrow pointing that far right, upon release they are going to be forced into the side plate before they have the chance to flex outward.

3. Unless the finish on your woodies is perfect, they tend to be more abrasive than aluminum or carbon. Just a few shots with an arrow that is a little abrasive, and pushed into the side plate will cause the wear you are showing.

4. Chances are, your Bear Weather Rest came with two thicknesses of adhesive pad. If you are using the thick one, switch it to the thin and see what happens. If you are using the thin one, simply switch to a piece of carpet tape.

5. When it was suggested that you have your arrow pointing outside of center (to the right for you, or to the left for a right hand shooter) it was *just a little*, not a couple arrow widths or more. The picture below illustrates correct center shot. Obviously, this is a right hand bow, but the arrow is *just a little* left of center.









KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

OK, I get it. Yes, the guy in the shop had run out of LH Weather Rests, so he pulled one off an existing bow he had for sale and tacked on an extra thick double-sided foam tape. Off the top of my head, I'd say 4 mm or so thick. I'll try a thinner piece when I get home tonight. Thanks for the pic. It shows the arrow to be offset I would say, only as much as the tip of the SHAFT itself. I'll see if I can get that little of an offset. I'm sure if I remove the 2nd foam tape I can. I think each tape is at least 2 mm.


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

I don't know that the arrow is too far right. The camera angle wasn't directly centered. You can see riser on the right in all of them indicating the picture was shot from the right. If directly behind the arrow tip would point more left. A guess but I'd say the left edge of the arrow shaft near the tip would be just about up against the string as in the picture posted just above. I'd do the pic again and make sure you're directly centered behind the bow so you don't see either side of the riser in the camera view and the string is perfectly centered on the riser bolts. That will tell you exactly where the arrow is positioned. It looks close to where it should be although that's relative to the bow and they're all different. I've got bows that need 2 arrow widths and others practically dead on center. Then too the arrow plays a big role in determining that. 

Everyone here is speaking from different pages of the same book so hopefully it isn't getting confusing. When your doing your test shots try to aim straight down the shaft paying minimal attention to elevation since trying to work on a "good" overall shot will diminish the attention on this specific item. There might be a tendency to point the bow versus the arrow which will send your arrows right so you should watch for that. Ignore the bow and only see the arrow.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for the tips rancho. I'll keep that in mind when I try again tonight.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sorry if I'm being redundant. So much here, was skimming, didn't see anything i'd disagree with.

The reason you want a bump, or a curved shelf surface, is because when you shoot the bow, since the arrow applies pressure to the string, unless you've got some front-heavy arrangement (like a substantial stab with weight), that will naturally roll the bow forward, the nock of the arrow, reacting to the pressure of the string, will push the string back, above the point of where your hand is applying the sum of pressure (to keep the bow itself from launching backwards, and in turn, providing the counter force to allow the bow to push the arrow forward. Because of this, the bow will tend to 'kick up' at the shot, more the higher you nock it, and the more then lower your grip. So, the nock MUST be high to counter for the subsequent downward nock travel that happens as the bow falls back during the shot, so that ideally, the nock ends up pretty close to the same level as the point, and about the same level, vertically, as if it were resting and sliding on the shelf.

If that nock travels a little too low, and hits the shelf, that is way worse than if the nock travels a little too high. A little high, it impacts just a little bit low. Nock a little too low, and it slaps the bow riser, and bounces off to who knows where.

If you don't have a bump, or a radius on the shelf, as the bow rotates backwards, the front of the shelf will get higher than the point that the arrow was resting on. If the arrow is impacted by that movement, it will cause a deviation, and because the amount of bow kick will depend on hand pressure, it makes the shot far more variable as a function of the shooter.

Similarly, shooting off the shelf may possibly make the bow far more prone to deviations caused by fletching orientation. While, in theory, the back of the arrow _should_ be nowhere near the shelf, humans don't always stick to theory when they actually act, and as a consequence, from time to time, shooting off the shelf may cause a mild brush of the back of the arrow with the top of the shelf, a brush that if the fletching is oriented one way, does relatively little, particularly when the shelf is covered by a soft, relatively fluffy material. However, if the quills stick out in a particular direction, it may make the impact comparatively 'hard', and then you see some arrow wobble, and some false weak/stiff/nock high arrow flight.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Man, you guys really know your stuff. A little over my head now, but in time, I think I'll get all this as well. Knowing theory is sometimes the best way to learn music, IMHO of course 😉


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

OK...I'm having real trouble just taking the bloody shot. :mg: My hands were shaking as well due to all the exertion, so had to have my daughter hold on to the bow whilst I took the shot. If the string bisects the riser bolt, it's centred no? I showed these pictures to a buddy of mine at work and he suggested that the best way might be for me to draw a line with something from bolt to bolt and then line up the string with it...and THEN take the shot. Anyways, here're more photos for what its worth. It sure looks pretty off-centred to me from these photos!!:mg:


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

The last photo is pretty good and shows the tip of the arrow shaft at the insert to be outside the string plane by about one shaft diameter.

Most people recommend and use a side plate configuration that puts the inside shaft edge at the insert just kissing the string plane.

Can you make the side plate a little thinner? Or is that what was resulting in your arrows impacting left?


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

From the guys at Harvard:

# Center Shot

* Load an arrow and line up the string with the limb bolts. For RIGHT-HANDED archers, the right side of the arrow should line up with the string; the arrow should be visible on the left side of the string. For LEFT-HANDED archers, do the reverse.

This has a great pic of this subject (FOURTH PHOTO DOWN):

http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23783


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## Arrowzen (Feb 14, 2014)

About a month ago when I was adjusting my strike plate thickness I went through kind of a similar tuning experience. 

I was using thin layers of leather for my strike plate. My initial goal that I had in mind was to make the bow as close to centershot as I could because I had arrows to match from bare shaft testing. However I knew there had to be some room for arrow flex because of the shape of my riser and the shafts that proved to work the best.

So this was the easy part. I just added 1 layer of leather about 1.5 mil in thickness and shot with it. 

The arrows were sticking straight out of the target. like so *|*
But they were hitting kinda left, so I had to make sure if that was my aiming or the tune. ( Turned out it was my aiming, I jsut had to adjust.) 


I added a 2nd layer of leather just to test for effect. 
Then all of my arrows no matter how they were aimed stuck out of the target like so *\* leaning right
This effect would be reversed for your left hand bow.

So my point with this is if you are unsure of your tune you can just shoot the bow and see exactly what it changes for your shots. In my case it was a clear change that the extra layer was throwing my arrows out of balance so I just went back to what gave the truest results. It's just a lot of info that you have to put into practice. Test the extremes to find the middle. Good luck


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

If you need to pull your rest closer to the riser, simply remove the self-stick adhesive tape and glue the rest directly to the riser with either Barge cement or contact cement. This will thin the rest and make quite a difference in pulling the shaft's offset closer towards the riser. I do this on all of my bows that use the Bear Weather Rest. 

The self-stick adhesive, or even a double-layer of adhesive to obtain a thicker shim, can work nicely on a bow that is cut way past center. But on many bows, the adhesive shim can be a tad too thick and its removal becomes necessary.

'Course, maybe you've already done this and we need a Plan B!

Actually, your pictured offset isn't a deal-breaker for good shooting. Many bows sport that offset (and more) and perform wonderfully as long as the arrows are fairly well-matched to the bow. Some longbows will show four or five shaft diameter offsets away from the center line, and they shoot just fine.

Hope this helps.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Guys...all of you, thanks for your replies. The arrows right now are behaving weirdly. Bareshafts are hitting ON target, fletched are hitting RIGHT of target (seemingly indicating a STIFF condition) It might be me...I'm going to shoot a lot more first before I say its the bow. Next step is to reduce the thickness of the double-sided tape and see where it gets me. I'm only worried now because I had cut down my arrows so much when I was getting the false weak conditions (all arrows hitting left of target)...all of which has been solved by the weather rest. 

So, if I REDUCE the offset, it will compensate for a STIFF arrow right? INCREASE the offset to compensate for WEAK arrow? 

Odd thing...my bareshafts are ON target, but my fletched are off to the right (stiff). Truth be told though, they are ALL hitting on the same horizontal plane, which makes me happy.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Like the picture I posted in post #33, and the one wseward posted a link to, your arrow is much too far outside of center shot.

Do yourself a favor, save yourself a lot of frustration, and do whatever you have to do to with your Weather Rest to get your arrow as close to these pictures as possible.

















You are just going to have a hell of a time trying to get your setup (as it is here) to behave the way you would like.









KPC


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Looking at the new pics I'd agree with gerep this time around. Your arrows might be too far right. The arrow's left edge up against the string or at most one width out to start. Yours are border line 2 plus. You may end up there but it's best to start with typical, find out which way you need to go, and start moving ever so slowly in that direction. The bare shafts are the ones that tell stiff or weak more so than the fletched. The feathers correct an error while bares hafts expose it. It might be the way you're aiming that's causing it to appear to hit the way it does. By what you said, the shafts are weak since the bare shafts are hitting left of fletched. 

Our eyes and brain will do some funny stuff to correct what it thinks we're doing wrong. Like making something appear straight when in fact your pointing left or right. Get the centershot closer to one width out and shoot again but make absolutely sure you are pointing straight down the shaft. Don't pay any attention to where they hit while shooting. Otherwise you might inadvertently correct it and hide the error in tune. Remember, you're not really trying to hit the target center. Just aim and let them hit where they hit. That's the objective until things line up on their own.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

GEREP, In post #7, the black riser with the wood grip...is that an Excel with some aluminium shelf plate removed?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

wseward said:


> GEREP, In post #7, the black riser with the wood grip...is that an Excel with some aluminium shelf plate removed?


No, it's one of the original Tradtech Titan prototypes. 

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Here's a pic of the whole riser.









KPC


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

OK folks, I think I got it. I completely scraped out ALL of the double-sided foamy tape and all of the residue etc and have arrived at this point...







I believe this is what we're looking for? Sorry for the grainy picture. I couldn't get many shots off either, but here are a few I managed to get off before I had to run off for a meeting. 










I know I got to work on my shot. Its not consistent and I feel I'm still struggling with my release. But these "groups" (I use the term loosely of course, lol!) are much better than what I had happening previously before I removed the foam tape from the back of the rest and with off the shelf shooting. Back then, the bareshafts were impacting pretty much about 5 inches left of the fletched. But at this point, I think the bareshafts are pretty much hitting around the same area as my fletched, don't you think? The distance, is, I believe 15 yards.


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## AngelDeVille (May 9, 2012)

I'm a shelf shooter and I use the fuzzy side of Velcro for the rest and side plate. 

Even with a radiused shelf I put a matchstick about a 1/4 to 1/3 of the way from the string side of the shelf under the Velcro. 

For the strike plate I trim the fuzziness, as thin as I can and still retain some fuzz.

I'm actually fitting a new bow today, maybe I'll snap some pics.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Here how I measure center shot. It is the way learned it.
Dan


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Zu, I'd call that good. The fletched and bare are in the same area which is what you're looking for. That was fun, wasn't it? LOL. Next, what is the angle of the arrow as compared to the floor? If they're parallel and you were shooting from the same plane then your nock is positioned correctly. If not, it may need a little tweaking. If the arrows are angled down into the bag that usually means your nock is too high on the string. Angled up means too low. If you move them do so in increments of 1/16 an inch at a time. It doesn't have to be perfect. Your looking for an error of 10 degrees or more before you start moving nocks around.


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Hahaha! Yes! Whatta relief! I never thought of looking at angle of arrows to the floor. Ok, tonight I'll shoot and check it out. I used to put the bag on the ground and the arrows always seemed to be nock up. That was then. My bag is now elevated about head height. They look straight in the photos. 

I'm using masking tape Nocks points and a little masking tape to tighten the Nocks as well (they're scary loose). Once firmed up I'm going to tie the Nocks on.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

zu! said:


> Hahaha! Yes! Whatta relief! I never thought of looking at angle of arrows to the floor. Ok, tonight I'll shoot and check it out. I used to put the bag on the ground and the arrows always seemed to be nock up. That was then. My bag is now elevated about head height. They look straight in the photos.
> 
> I'm using masking tape Nocks points and a little masking tape to tighten the Nocks as well (they're scary loose). Once firmed up I'm going to tie the Nocks on.


Zu, if you look at the photo's I posted and do it that way you can mark the T square with both center shot and nock point for future records. If not you may find that it all guess work done for nothing. What i mean is if you make a change in arrows in the future. Then having a starting point to adjust from really helps.
Dan


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Great idea Dan! I'll be sure to do it!


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

zu! said:


> Great idea Dan! I'll be sure to do it!


Zu, I find that as my shooting improves I can fine tune my setup this way I am not going backward. I think? lol.
Dan


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Here how I measure center shot. It is the way learned it.
> Dan
> View attachment 1945198
> 
> View attachment 1945197


Dang Dan, that's pretty hi-tech. I've always just eyeballed mine.

:wink:

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

zu! said:


> OK folks, I think I got it. I completely scraped out ALL of the double-sided foamy tape and all of the residue etc and have arrived at this point...



There you go, *MUCH* better.

KPC


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

GEREP, thanx for the answer. Nice rig.

zu!, Congrats on the tune...looking good. Now try that tune from 20 yards some time?

Anybody, anybody seen/shot a Hoyt Excel 21" riser with the "extra" (maybe NOT a good idea) aluminium shelf ground down/over towards the side plate, to make the shelf not so wide?


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

wseward said:


> GEREP, thanx for the answer. Nice rig.
> 
> zu!, Congrats on the tune...looking good. Now try that tune from 20 yards some time?
> 
> Anybody, anybody seen/shot a Hoyt Excel 21" riser with the "extra" (maybe NOT a good idea) aluminium shelf ground down/over towards the side plate, to make the shelf not so wide?


I don't see why not.

I saw a Pro compound shooter belt sand off the side of a High country bow shelf and part of the grip. so he could put his finger on top of the shelf. I ask him why and he said i get a bow free every year and he shot better with his hand close to the arrow. 
Not sure if you can see my grip in the above picture but there is'nt one. The way my left hand is on the bow is the way I shoot it. More deflexed and up as high as I can get it. One othe thing I have my arrow right on center shot. I shoot a slightly stiff arrow and I approach the spot from right to left. Zu, that would be left to right. This allows me to see the spot as I come into it and push and its there. 
Dan


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## AngelDeVille (May 9, 2012)

This one came with a plastic hoodad rest, I just don't like em...


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Where you place the grip in your hand and the pressure point into the grip, along with HOW you place your fingers on the string can make a huge difference in arrow flight. You can achieve flawless arrow flight with the simplest of equipment when done correctly. When you HAVE to tweak things to attain the minimal amount of contact, you are usually torquing the bow in some manner, either in the grip or on the string, or both.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

DDSHOOTER, thanx for the answer regarding shelf and grip. Hoping to try some shelf removal on an Excel...some day for lower shelf shooting. Also was wondering about closer to center shot than the norm. Will have to try that some time as well.

Tried shooting the Excel with out the grip and that did not last long. Very uncomfortable...with out at least tape. Will try to make a custom wood grip of Hickory that is higher and more forward, plus a we bit wider throat than the stock Excel grip.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Your welcome. I used 1/8" poron with acrylic tape. Will see if it last. So far so good.
Dan


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## zu! (Feb 19, 2014)

Hank said:


> Where you place the grip in your hand and the pressure point into the grip, along with HOW you place your fingers on the string can make a huge difference in arrow flight. You can achieve flawless arrow flight with the simplest of equipment when done correctly. When you HAVE to tweak things to attain the minimal amount of contact, you are usually torquing the bow in some manner, either in the grip or on the string, or both.


Your post makes total sense Hank. Rank beginners like me need all the help we can get though! I'm pretty sure as I progress and get better, I will be able to understand the nuances of hand grip and finger placement on the string. I've got lots of experimentation to do.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Zu:

I'm glad things are starting to come around an make a little more sense to you. 

I do have one more bit of advice, hopefully it will save you a little frustration going forward.

When you get to the point where you want to do a little more precise tuning, you might want to invest in a "Block" type target, or some other more solid foam type target. When you are trying to determine impact angles, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to do so with a loose bag target like the one shown in your picture.









Because of the inconsistent fill, density, drooping, etc., the way your arrows appear, might not be exactly the way they entered.

With a dense foam target, the arrows tend to penetrate and remain on the same angle that they impacted, giving you a much more consistent reading.









KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

wseward said:


> DDSHOOTER, thanx for the answer regarding shelf and grip. Hoping to try some shelf removal on an Excel...some day for lower shelf shooting. Also was wondering about closer to center shot than the norm. Will have to try that some time as well.
> 
> Tried shooting the Excel with out the grip and that did not last long. Very uncomfortable...with out at least tape. Will try to make a custom wood grip of Hickory that is higher and more forward, plus a we bit wider throat than the stock Excel grip.


Years ago, I tried my Titan with some grip scales that I made. I ended up not liking the feel and gave them away.









Experiment, you just never know what might be the exact ticket for a particular shooting style.

KPC


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

GEREP said:


> Years ago, I tried my Titan with some grip scales that I made. I ended up not liking the feel and gave them away.
> 
> View attachment 1945710
> 
> ...


I like the looks of your side plates. I have tried a medium and high grips, so far this has been the best. Viper1 said to give it a try. It keeps my bow arm shoulder low which help with my follow-thru. Also, why do you have the rest so far back. John Wert with TT told me to keep it centered. Is there and advantage to it being that far back?
Dan


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Also, why do you have the rest so far back. John Wert with TT told me to keep it centered. Is there and advantage to it being that far back?
> Dan


It really isn't Dan. It only looks that way without a grip on there. 

With my medium grip, it's actually centered with the rear plunger hole, which is pretty much directly above the pivot point of the grip.









KPC


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

GEREP said:


> It really isn't Dan. It only looks that way without a grip on there.
> 
> With my medium grip, it's actually centered with the rear plunger hole, which is pretty much directly above the pivot point of the grip.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I see it's center on the rear hole. Maybe I miss understood John but I am pretty sure he said center mast of the riser. Also why is there a front hole. I am with you on why you want it to pivotal of the grip. But we are simulating a radius riser bow. Right?
Dan


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## Arrowwood (Nov 16, 2010)

Nobody seems to remember for sure why the front hole started (possibly so Hoyt wouldn't have to pay royalties to Martin for a horizontally adjustable rest) but today it's used to bolt on a wrap-around rest. And some people still use the forward hole for the plunger.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I'm not really sure about the forward hole. As to having the arrow contact right above the pivot point of the grip, I've always felt that it makes for the least amount of impact on the arrow from any torqueing of the riser.

KPC


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

KPC, I found what John was talking about. Here you go. Jimmy Blackmon shooting off the shelf 70 @ 90 meters.
http://archersparadoxdotorg.wordpress.com/author/jimmyblackmon/page/3/
Dan


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Cool video, thanks. It looked like it was in the center, but didn't see where he addressed the positioning of the radius on the shelf. Did I miss it?

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I did a quick search on the web for an illustration and explanation of what I was talking about and came up with this.

This happens to be from the Archery *Australia Coaching and Standards Committee* manual on setting up a recurve bow.

http://www.pioneerarchers.com/Member Portal/Info/recurvebowsetup.pdf









I've seen this in many places and it's just always the way I've set up my bows. 

I don't do much (any) shooting at 70, 90, and 120 meters, but it works well for me.

:wink:

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

If you look at the ILF risers that have been designed with an integrated "hump" for shooting off the shelf (Morrison/Sky/DAS), they all have the apex of the "hump" over the pivot point of the grip.









KPC


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

http://www.tradtecharchery.com/tradtech-titan-ii-17-ilf-takedown-riser.html#fullDescription
I think the was what Jimmy was referring too.
Dan


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