# Managing float



## dartonpro4000 (Oct 12, 2010)

Great post! Should be helpful to many. Especially the part about shoot lots of arrows!


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

N7709K said:


> Getting a handle on your float and making the changes needed to it is more or less a two-fold process: 1) you need to diagnose what your float is, how much it moves, and HOW it moves AND 2)you need to evaluate the most likely cause for why your float is doing what does and subsequently the best course of action to adjust your float. Part one takes hours behind the bow; learning your float isn't something that will be done in a session or two at the range or while sitting at home- you need to put time in and arrows through the bow. Part two takes applying solutions to part one AND understanding that for the first day or two things may become unstable with sight picture due to the changes...
> 
> 
> part 1)
> ...


 somewhat the same criteria as "shot window timing, but applied to float range. instead of marking the shots' time that produce an x, you mark the shots, whose float produces the best X. then analyze what you did during that shot that produced the good float after each shot.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

All I really did was put on my big boy pants and stuck the bow out there and held the damn thing steady anyway I could.
and it worked... 
I think most people have a float that is small enough, but they don't know how to get through their shot without creating a bunch of extra unwanted motion. they call this extra unwanted motion, float but it really isn't. 

I guess I am the only one that has gone from a big float to a small float, as I don't see anyone else giving any pointers on how to make their float smaller that it currently is... :noidea:


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Great post Jacob! Thank you,
Allen


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Can you talk a bit about the partial twist in the torso? I'll be honest - this is new to me. 

I've experienced a lot of your points.  The biggest for me is the low left leak (I'm left handed). You're spot on that this is due to a collapsing shot. I fought this for a while and it was all due to lack of trust in my shot. I wasn't executing it and just waiting for it to happen, which resulted in a lot of collapsed shots. I spend a lot of time on the short range working on aggressive shots.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Bees said:


> I guess I am the only one that has gone from a big float to a small float, as I don't see anyone else giving any pointers on how to make their float smaller that it currently is... :noidea:


i'm not sure i'm following what you're getting at exactly with this... and if I am following i'm not sure that I'm taking it how it intended.... Think you could clarify bud?




Ned250 said:


> Can you talk a bit about the partial twist in the torso? I'll be honest - this is new to me.


the quick version is the shooter uses more of an open stance and sets up the shot with the chest more squared to the target; as you raise the bow and start the draw the torso comes around and you bring the bow into the plane of the target. indoors it helps some overall with making the whole platform more stable but outdoors it has large benefits.

drop me a PM if wanna talk more about it


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## rocket80 (May 29, 2008)

Tag to read tomorrow


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

great post - thanks Jacob.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Bees who put one in your bonnet? 

It is a complex answer with insufficient data. If we are looking for guesses we can all do that easily.

The front shoulder is creeping up and float goes to hell learn to draw with it in position or learn to draw then lower it into place and keep it there it will have more impact to float than anything .


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

only so much can be applied universally; body structure is different, shooters are different, the root cause for why issue "x" is happening are different... Shooting with a fractured ulna will give a little bit of a low bob and make balancing the pressure in the halves a chore cause it hurts like an SOB (not me, one of the guys i trained with for a while); but that isn't something you factor in for each situation. 

broaching the issue looking for a quick fix won't get you anywhere; the majority of instability in float is caused by form flaws- those don't get changed over night. Tuning DL takes time, tuning bars CORRECTLY takes time, getting the shooter to the level that they can actually utilize the tuning methods to their advantage takes time... The hardest part is getting float fixed is getting shooters to open up to the idea that a certain cookie cutter approach isn't the best method and they need to evaluate their situation for them- not fit themselves to a cut and dried system.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Excellent...but here's a big issue for me....I don't know where my dot is when the shot breaks, I really pay no attention to it or a pin. I put it in the middle and stare around it at the center of the target and the shot happens. I guess the only way for me to "Study my float" would be to not shoot the shot at all and strictly watch the pin or dot etc. but I don't think that would show me the same results as if I shot the shot. Perhaps I'm crazy.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Forgot to thank you n7700k nice thread


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## Carbofastdirect (Nov 25, 2013)

Another helpful thread, Thanks Jacob!!


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

ArcherXXX300 said:


> Excellent...but here's a big issue for me....I don't know where my dot is when the shot breaks, I really pay no attention to it or a pin. I put it in the middle and stare around it at the center of the target and the shot happens. I guess the only way for me to "Study my float" would be to not shoot the shot at all and strictly watch the pin or dot etc. but I don't think that would show me the same results as if I shot the shot. Perhaps I'm crazy.


What you're actually looking for is your natural float when you aren't executing. So yes, watch your float and do not shoot. Then, once your natural float is ingrained into your brain, put your execution back into everything and see if your float changes. If it does, decipher why. See what part of your execution is making it change. See what's different in your body between watching before and watching now while executing. Then adjust until you can still maintain your natural floating pattern.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ArcherXXX300 said:


> Excellent...but here's a big issue for me....I don't know where my dot is when the shot breaks, I really pay no attention to it or a pin. I put it in the middle and stare around it at the center of the target and the shot happens. I guess the only way for me to "Study my float" would be to not shoot the shot at all and strictly watch the pin or dot etc. but I don't think that would show me the same results as if I shot the shot. Perhaps I'm crazy.


Nope, you're not crazy. Actually, executing the shot can make float slow or even have the pin freeze in place. 




RCR_III said:


> What you're actually looking for is your natural float when you aren't executing. So yes, watch your float and do not shoot. Then, once your natural float is ingrained into your brain, put your execution back into everything and see if your float changes. If it does, decipher why. See what part of your execution is making it change. See what's different in your body between watching before and watching now while executing. Then adjust until you can still maintain your natural floating pattern.


About sums it up....However one wants to put it, squeeze to rip it, but to me a smooth execution is the ticket....


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Bees said:


> All I really did was put on my big boy pants and stuck the bow out there and held the damn thing steady anyway I could.
> and it worked...
> I think most people have a float that is small enough, but they don't know how to get through their shot without creating a bunch of extra unwanted motion. they call this extra unwanted motion, float but it really isn't.
> 
> I guess I am the only one that has gone from a big float to a small float, as I don't see anyone else giving any pointers on how to make their float smaller that it currently is... :noidea:


I also hate the word "float". Only because of the fact that when I do everything correctly, there is none. At least none that I can see.

Not to detract from the OP's list of essentials though. Those are all good things, as long as you don't substitute over-thinking, and over-experimenting with valuable practice. 

Understand that getting the bow set up correctly is not something you do in a couple days when you are first starting out. If you haven't ever had a good sight picture, you won't really know how good it can be, or how to get it. It takes a lot of time and practice. My suggestion would be to make one change, and shoot it for a few days or weeks before scrapping it or changing something else. 

Stabilizer weight is a good example. If you add 3-4 oz on the front and your dot slows down for 4 or 5 ends, then it goes to hell, the added weight isn't necessarily the problem. It could be a strength issue.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

based on your own skill level you have to determine a float area thats doable for u, almost all your pro shooters hold a float inside the x, most of your high x shooters hold there float to just around the x and your average shooter the bulls eye is their targeted float area, the more proficient you become the smaller the float area becomes, 
dont ,dont try to evaluate your self! the best money iv ever spent was the employment of a good instructor one of the best in the wold lives in ill , i see him once a year he can be hard to get an appointment with and if your not willing to listen and do what he says your gone. he will not waste his time . http://wunderlearchery.com/


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

60435 said:


> based on your own skill level you have to determine a float area thats doable for u, almost all your pro shooters hold a float inside the x, most of your high x shooters hold there float to just around the x and your average shooter the bulls eye is their targeted float area, the more proficient you become the smaller the float area becomes,
> dont ,dont try to evaluate your self! the best money iv ever spent was the employment of a good instructor one of the best in the wold lives in ill , i see him once a year he can be hard to get an appointment with and if your not willing to listen and do what he says your gone. he will not waste his time . http://wunderlearchery.com/


I'm jealous, I read everything of Terry's I can... great approach.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

one of the big game changers for how I approach aiming was when USAA/WC went to inner face. On standard 40cm multi color and vegas face my dot sits inside big 10 and I have big 10 as a reference for whether or not the dot is where it should be; on inner face you have a literal sea of yellow and inner 10. instead of aiming at the x, or inside big 10 i/we found that you just aim at the middle... put your dot in the middle of the sea of yellow and you'll hit where you want. After a couple ends there is a defined hole to aim in the middle and it becomes about hitting that hole so to speak (you still aim for the middle of the yellow, but your dot is drawn to the beat out dark spot in the middle and fades into it... as you stuff arrow after arrow into the same hole it starts to flare out a little as the paper rolls and the dot fades even more); with this DL can be let out a little to give a little softer float. 

To aid in the transition of aiming at what you want to hit simply aiming at the middle I found shooting lots and lots and lots of arrows (5-10k prolly, most of a training season plus scores) at inner face UP CLOSE helped greatly. With the 6x setup I shot for a long time at 8yds I was still shooting at a literal sea of yellow but it was all inside of inner 10. My dot covers just under the hole a 22series shaft puts in the paper at 8yds- on inner face thats still a very big sea of yellow to float around in when I have half a dots width on all sides when i'm centered up. Its was shoot 120 arrows, switch faces to reset the internal shot clock and stop getting lax in things, shoot another 120 and repeat.... over and over again. Season later shooting a 297inner avg isn't a taxing feat and 298+ games are very common... but I've built my shot to the point all i do is watch where my dot is and think about where my release side is going to end up after the shot breaks.

I'm running a 3x now and my dot moves the same amount as it did before; it just appears as it moves a greater distance because the target isn't as enhanced..


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## 3SixtyOutdoors (Sep 14, 2012)

tag


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## memosteve (Nov 24, 2012)

Hope this is relevant to the topic.

I've had a sort of revelation just recently w/regards to dot/circle/aiming reference point size and influence on float...

When shooting spots, I've been using a ring on my lens' for a couple years now. Prior, I used dots/pins, but I've had the most consistent results using rings.

I've settled on using a ring that allows me to view the entire 'gold' when shooting a Vegas face, and on most days, I float well enough to keep the ring there w/out seeing any red.

Start of this indoor season I started using a TruSpot lens, 1/4" grind, which gave me about the same FOV as the ring I'm accustomed to. With this lens, I shoot about the same scores as with a ring, but I can see the occasional red during my float/shot execution, which has caused me to be a bit less aggressive w/my shot execution (almost like I'm hesitating/borderline restarting my shot execution!), and becoming exhausted shooting the bow and creeping a lot, I think because of the float I'm seeing.

I started chasing my tune, stabs/weights, and DL, trying to get the float to settle down enough for my comfort level.

I just went to a smaller grind (don't know the size of the grind, as it was given to me by a friend, but it's a lot smaller than the 1/4" grind!). The smaller grind gives me a FOV of just outside/around the 10 ring, and guess what?
My float is a lot smaller, I'm back to a good feeling, solid, aggressive shot execution, staying in the shot, and pounding the X w/almost no deviation out of inner 10! All w/out messing around with tuning/setup than how the bow was ran w/the other larger grind, or rings!

So, I think that your sight picture plays a huge roll in managing your float!


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## Tiroarco (Nov 6, 2012)

N7709K said:


> Getting a handle on your float and making the changes needed to it is more or less a two-fold process: 1) you need to diagnose what your float is, how much it moves, and HOW it moves AND 2)you need to evaluate the most likely cause for why your float is doing what does and subsequently the best course of action to adjust your float. Part one takes hours behind the bow; learning your float isn't something that will be done in a session or two at the range or while sitting at home- you need to put time in and arrows through the bow. Part two takes applying solutions to part one AND understanding that for the first day or two things may become unstable with sight picture due to the changes...
> 
> 
> part 1)
> ...


That was a fantastic read.....I will definitely be sharing this with others (and giving you credit of course!). Thanks for taking the time Jacob!


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## brad91x (Jul 12, 2013)

What is hard hands ? My pin is jittery


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

brad91x said:


> What is hard hands ? My pin is jittery


Usually, pointing the pinky finger out....this tightens the muscle under the thumb making it hard to the touch. Relaxing the fingers without gripping the bow will let it settle and not be twitchy....


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## brad91x (Jul 12, 2013)

Well that's not my problem..don't know why the picture is so jittery


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## memosteve (Nov 24, 2012)

brad91x said:


> Well that's not my problem..don't know why the picture is so jittery


Have you tried increasing your DL a little?


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## brad91x (Jul 12, 2013)

I shorted it up a bit last week I think I'll let it back out and compare targets


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

generally speaking, if you sight picture is jerky or jittery, you draw length is a bit short. there's a very fine line between "just right" and "too short".......much finer and more critical, than between, "just right" and "too long". i think that's why most people end up a bit long, it's a lot harder to tell when you are too long than it is, when you are too short. that feeling of "cramped up, too short" is much more noticeable, than the feeling of, "too long". so when people have that cramped up feeling, they tend to over eliminate it and end up too long. small changes are the key. and going just past what feels good or right, in either direction, will confirm when you actually are right. the only thing that's set in stone, is that if your draw length is not right, your shooting will suffer, you have to find what feels right, and then go past it, just a little, before you can know it's "right" and then, you also, have to understand the consequences of being, "too long", or "too short', to be able to evaluate when you're just right. as NUTS & BOLTS says, "result based tuning", is the answer. you cannot tell if you are too long or too short, if you don't recognize the "results" of being too long or too short. 
"feeling" doesn't do it,.... if it did, we wouldn't see all the pics of people with way too long a draw length. you have to first be "just right" before you can learn the feeling of "just right"... and the only way you can recognize that feeling, is to first see and learn the results that "just right", produces.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I can agree with that.


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## X-file (Jul 7, 2012)

This is a great thread with great info. Thank you

I have found that my float almost seems to swing like a pendulum. It is not dramatic and may just be an optical illusion. I use a pin and it may have that visual effect under the round x. 

I am a relative novice with spots but want to learn all I can so if I described that poorly I apologize


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