# Nock Height and Holding



## LadyBowhunter12

This should be a good thread. Ive been playing with nock height lately and ive noticed how easier it is to hold when you have it in the right place. I think it also adds forgiveness to the bow too. Hope someone else explains this into much further detail!


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## RCR_III

I touched on things in the other thread on nock height. In simplest explanations, the raising or lowering of the loop height creates a different pulling point and in turn pulls the grip in different ways into your hand. 

It can be used to help match high or low grips. If you have a high grip and push into the riser with the webbing more, then raising up the loop can pull the top of the bow back into the hand and combat pushing the bow down. 


Moving the loop works for pulling. It works with pulling the top or the bottom of the bow back towards you, determined by loop height, and as you pull into the shot this force increases. But, without pulling, moving the loop has little to no affect. I remember watching a video or two you posted in a thread and I can't remember for sure, but I remember thinking you had a weaker shot. Meaning you don't pull much. If you're not pulling as much then the bow will always feel heavy. It'll always want to drop down because you're not helping yourself hold it up with anything but your bow arm. 

I also noticed you seem to have a bend in the bow arm. Something to compensate for not pulling would be my guess. To help you hold the bow up. Also, you seemed short on loop length and the release arm wasn't rotating back around and allowing you to transfer weight to your back muscles and helping you pull and hold. 

I know you've mentioned lengthening loop length since the videos though. Maybe it's enough, maybe you could go more. There's a twilight zone for a little bit as you lengthen that feels too long and out of place, only to still be too short. That's why I usually go too long to begin with on an archer so they can start working back. If I don't, they usually fight that concept. 

On a side note, I think that's why you like the HBX so much too. You don't pull very much and that style works with the HBX. Reo pulls the wheels off the bow, and he's switched back to his HBC. I've wondered if that had something to do with it. I know from my findings with the HBX, it didn't fit my shot type.


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## cbrunson

More nonsense that you use as an excuse to convince yourself that your problems can be fixed by adjusting something on your bow rather than addressing the fact that you're dealing with a mild form of target panic that won't let you hold it steady in the middle and execute a clean shot. If you can hold it steady low, you can hold it steady in the middle. You have to teach your brain to let you.


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## SonnyThomas

As for "reading" a d-loop, field14 has his opinion and what is wrong. Every bow I've owned and using the d-loop, the d-loop a ">" to the bow string. Didn't matter if 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 or 3/8" high nocking point. In fact, I have a bow right now that has a 3/8" high nocking point the d-loop is like this ">". This bow has been checked by many, timing perfect, inspected at the factory, strings and limbs replaced and still a 3/8" nocking point is what the bow likes.
And then to have 3 bows with a 1/16" high nocking point.

E, you've sustained some type of injury a while back. You're may be either recovering yet or contending with some change which may be causing some struggle. Look within yourself. Relax.

I don't believe in some perfect bow arm, only a strong bow arm. Understanding the length of a d-loop sucks, only long enough. Draw length too long is the only real problem causer, not too short....


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## xavier102772

I experimented with nock height a while back and it seemed to make no significant difference in hold. Like many have said here, and I concur, it's you that's the problem, not your equipment. Whenever I have made strides in my shooting, it's always been because of working on myself and my shot. Same goes for any issues I've had. It's almost always me and not my equipment. And again, as I've said before, look into the KSL shot cycle and incorporate it into your shooting. If you do, I bet most of your problems will go away, including your latest, I'm holding low issue.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> More nonsense that you use as an excuse to convince yourself that your problems can be fixed by adjusting something on your bow rather than addressing the fact that you're dealing with a mild form of target panic that won't let you hold it steady in the middle and execute a clean shot. If you can hold it steady low, you can hold it steady in the middle. You have to teach your brain to let you.


I think I've confused this by using the term "holding low" which is incorrect. I'm actually being pulled out of center in a vertical direction as I pull through the shot. Relaxation of the bow arm lessens this effect but doesn't completely get rid of it. Sonny is correct in pointing out my shoulder injury as I'm still not strong enough to rule out this as a factor. As I shoot this becomes more of an issue. 

Still, my question about nock height is a valid one, although it may be as mentioned a dead end that doesn't have much effect. Is there a sweet spot?


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## SonnyThomas

I have not heard of a sweet spot for a person. For a bow, yes.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> I have not heard of a sweet spot for a person. For a bow, yes.


Bow is what I'm talking about. I'm trying to come up with the most forgiving setup I can achieve.


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## rohpenguins

EPLC said:


> I think I've confused this by using the term "holding low" which is incorrect. I'm actually being pulled out of center in a vertical direction as I pull through the shot. Relaxation of the bow arm lessens this effect but doesn't completely get rid of it. Sonny is correct in pointing out my shoulder injury as I'm still not strong enough to rule out this as a factor. As I shoot this becomes more of an issue.
> 
> Still, my question about nock height is a valid one, although it may be as mentioned a dead end that doesn't have much effect. Is there a sweet spot?


I want to make sure I understand what is happening correct me If I am wrong. When you settle on the target and start you firing sequence as you build tension on the release the bow dips just before the shot breaks.


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## V3505

Humans are creatures of habbit, and it's my opinion that when I become confident, focused and shooting great, I wind up not paying as much attention and get lazy. Things start to fall apart. This sport requires constant attention and precision. To snap back, I focus on one thing at a time during practice. A strong bow arm for 20 shots, 20 good shots with perfect back tension, etc. Before you know it, my hold comes back. I think the trick is to remain relaxed, stress free and act like a programmed machine. I've never had a shoulder injury, but I have experienced what your talking about. I tend to agree more with cbrunson.


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## EPLC

rohpenguins said:


> I want to make sure I understand what is happening correct me If I am wrong. When you settle on the target and start you firing sequence as you build tension on the release the bow dips just before the shot breaks.


Yes, that pretty much describes it although it's not a sudden dip most of the time, it's more of a tug downward or a heavy bow feeling. I am shooting with an injury so I'm sure it is a factor. Also, target panic could be involved as well but I still would like to explore the benefits, if any, of nock height.


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## cbrunson

I've been through it, and through it, and through it some more. Unless your timing is off with hard stops, I would almost guarantee you are just not following through on the shot. 

Start pulling until it happens and then back off to see if it goes back up. If it does, you likely have some major timing or tiller issue. If you move your nocking point, you always check/adjust your timing to be correct. You shouldn't notice any difference in hold by moving it if you finish re-tuning your bow correctly afterwards


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## MPKO

If i recall right, John dudley has written a article about tiller tuning, which is touching this topic as well IMO.


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## Padgett

To me if you have your bow cam synced perfect so they are hitting at the same time and then you move the nock up or down the string it will no longer be synced and one draw peg will be hitting first so if you are a valley sitter as you begin the shot then as you pull into the wall and try and execute depending on which cam hit first as you pull into the wall the second one will hit and this is putting some kind of effect into your hold. Basically a two stage or three stage effect. If you are totally valley sitting then as the first peg hits the wall you will feel it and then as the second one hits it will get even more solid so you are going through a variety of stages of wall. None of this is a good thing. 

Get the draw pegs hitting at the same time so they are synced and then use back tension preload into the wall before you take your thumb off the hinge or put your thumb on the thumb trigger. Then once you begin the execution while you are aiming absolutely do not pause or add or subtract your execution effort, it needs to be a smooth amount of effort that continues on cruise control until the shot fires. 

Now once you spend the time doing this and perfect it and become a very solid shooter then and only then can you possibly earn the right to pause because of a slight wind gust or funny float pattern. Right now you will be much better off during the learning phase of only starting and running the shot with absolutely no pausing for any reason and the quality of your shooting will be much better off than if you try and pause and fix problems. 

Tiller stuff does the same thing as just moving the d-loop, it screws with your cam sync and arrow flight. If you do want to change the angle of the riser that is fine but then you need to tune the bow to that setting and get the cam sync taken care of. The new hoyt's with the little grip mods that you can change the grip take care of this problem nicely so you don't have to lean the riser with tiller tuning to get there.


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## thawk

EPLC do you have any other people to ask? You are asking the right questions but to the same people, and from what I have seen I don't think most have the knowledge to answer your questions. They have their beliefs and opinions but are closed minded to other possibilities.
I asked a similar question about grip height and tiller tuning, one person said grip location has no effect on how a bow aims but grip pressure does. How can you move the grip up or down the riser and not change grip pressure?

I would read post #3 very closely to me he seems to be the only one that has a grasp on your question
If your bow aims just fine if you have no intension of shooting (aiming drills) then read post #4 
Also post #14 is on the right track

Any time you move your nocking point, weather it being through style of d loop, or simply moving it up and down or by tiller, it will effect how the bow aims (see post 3)


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## redman

On my Hoyt podium I moved the loop up the bottom or the arrow top of the burger hole The bow aims great that way for me give it a try


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## thawk

I also have personal opinion on EPLC I may be way off but his posts have lead me to this conclusion, I also came to it from personal experience.

I'm not sure how long EPLC has been shooting or his age, so I'll talk about me, I'm 52 and have been shooting seriously sense 91 I joined the pro ranks in 96 and competed there till 08

The hardest thing for me is not being able to aim the way I used to. Back then 300 25x vegas rounds were nothing for me, 550+ feild rounds were the norm, and a 1380 full fita was common.

Now???? 297 20x, 545-550 and all they shoot now is 50 meters. I simply don't aim as good or nearly as long as I once did. Back then I could hold for 10 seconds in the dot and never come out, now I get 2-3 then the movement starts.
I have changed my equipment more the last few years then ever before trying to figure out why I can't aim like I used to. It's pretty simple, I'm getting old, add in a few injuries and I'm lucky to shoot as well as I do.

EPLC I'm not saying to stop looking for things to help you shoot/aim better, but what works for 10-15 people on the Internet might be the worse thing for you, get the theories and try them out and don't worry if what works for you goes against the norm


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## rohpenguins

I have had shoulder surgery 2x and experienced what you are noticing. I reduced my draw weight down to 50 pounds on a 60 pound peak bow. Doing so lengthen by dl I didn't think it mattered but it caused me to be too tight. Also the lower dw meant lower holding weight so I needed to reduce mass weight of the bow. One thing fed another and got me into a feedback loop until I had the issue resolved.


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## duc

cbrunson said:


> More nonsense that you use as an excuse to convince yourself that your problems can be fixed by adjusting something on your bow rather than addressing the fact that you're dealing with a mild form of target panic that won't let you hold it steady in the middle and execute a clean shot. If you can hold it steady low, you can hold it steady in the middle. You have to teach your brain to let you.


To much common sense here for this thread.


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## duc

V3505 said:


> Humans are creatures of habbit, and it's my opinion that when I become confident, focused and shooting great, I wind up not paying as much attention and get lazy. Things start to fall apart. This sport requires constant attention and precision. To snap back, I focus on one thing at a time during practice. A strong bow arm for 20 shots, 20 good shots with perfect back tension, etc. Before you know it, my hold comes back. I think the trick is to remain relaxed, stress free and act like a programmed machine. I've never had a shoulder injury, but I have experienced what your talking about. I tend to agree more with cbrunson.


And here.


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## redman

When I was younger i could hold right no spot and not move but my shot execution was not good so my scores was not as good as they can be I am older and I can not hold no the spot as good but my execution is way better and I am shooting better scores then I was younger .Most all my practice I work on execution and little on aiming .This is what works for me


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## thawk

rohpenguins said:


> I have had shoulder surgery 2x and experienced what you are noticing. I reduced my draw weight down to 50 pounds on a 60 pound peak bow. Doing so lengthen by dl I didn't think it mattered but it caused me to be too tight. Also the lower dw meant lower holding weight so I needed to reduce mass weight of the bow. One thing fed another and got me into a feedback loop until I had the issue resolved.


I hope you don't take offense to this cause that's not how I meant it.
I have never understood this way of thinking and I see it more with archers then anything else I do.
"I reduced my draw weight and in doing so my holding weight went down so I had to change..........."

If you were still able to shoot the same holding weight without discomfort why lower it? Just because the bow did it on its own doesn't mean you have to live with it.
My #1 bow right now came with 75% letoff
But I'm pulling 58# and holding 23#

Don't change your shot and comfort zone to fit a bow, if you have to buy a different bow, or fix the one you have to work for you. To me its like cutting off a toe to fit a pair of shoes, not me, I'm getting shoes that fit me


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## rohpenguins

After surgeries things change I had to lower weight to be comfortable and shoot well. Yes I had to change things from the way I did it before the injuries. My dl is a full 1/2 shorter now due to range of motion issues. There are 100 ways to skin the cat. Elpc had has shoulder issues. I was simply pointing out some of the issues I had. I had the mindset at first I would not change anything but then I had to out of necessity. Lots of moving parts that have a cause and effect that I didn't have to deal with before. I had the exact same issue he has and told him how I got back on track.


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## thawk

Like I said I didn't mean any offense, it sounded like you were disappointed that lowering your draw weight made you lower your holding weight.


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## EPLC

And now we go full circle to the question: "Does nock height have any effect on holding?"

Since I started this thread I've done some tinkering on my own. I lowered the functional loop position without actually lowering the nocking point. I did this by adding 1/8" of tied in nock below the arrow and repositioned the bottom of the d-loop. This resulted in having to lower the rest to get it to tune. I then lengthened the DL about 1/8". This combination has produced a better hold, at least in my cellar. Of course this proves nothing because I lengthened the DL but I did see some improvement before I did that. Of course this also proves nothing because my ability to hold varies from day to day. It may just come down to shooting with an injury really sucks.


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## TNMAN

Field14 did a lot toward pushing the idea of adjusting pull points based on reading d-loop angles....which was an idea that I think Javi Mike Cooper came up with, and Field does give him credit. Certainly there is a sweet spot, but Javi never intended this to be anything like a cure for other more obvious and likely problems....like a weak or sore shoulder riding up on you. The last thing Javi said about this on AT in in the following thread.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1986942

I would get the loop where it feels best and holds best, but we should all know this is only a very small/subtle improvement which may or may not be worth another single X. Sincerely wishing you a full recovery.

edit: willing to bet some warm weather and sunshine will help things along.


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## SonnyThomas

E, having my shoulder blown out and overhauled. There are days I just quit shooting, that off. Day or two later and I shoot good as ever...maybe. I am not the shooter I once was, but give it my best.


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## bigHUN

EPLC said:


> And now we go full circle to the question: "Does nock height have any effect on holding?"...


If you set the nocking point mathematically centered on the moving string (a string length what is not wrapped on cams), my short answer is "no"


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## thawk

I would disagree with bighun 100%
I will use a laser and a full moon Stan and pull through 10-15 shots while videoing the laser dot. I point the laser off to the side so I don't see it.
For your nock point test you can do this, tie a d loop knot to knot (no space for an arrow) right above and right below your actual nocking d loop
To do it right you have to move your peep up and down for the extra loops, go through 10-15 shots on each setting then go back and look at the video. You should also see it while aiming if there is an adjustment happening to your aim.

By tying the extra loops with no gap you decrease how far apart you spread things out with the extra loops


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## nuts&bolts

thawk said:


> I would disagree with bighun 100%
> I will use a laser and a full moon Stan and pull through 10-15 shots while videoing the laser dot. I point the laser off to the side so I don't see it.
> For your nock point test you can do this, tie a d loop knot to knot (no space for an arrow) right above and right below your actual nocking d loop
> To do it right you have to move your peep up and down for the extra loops, go through 10-15 shots on each setting then go back and look at the video. You should also see it while aiming if there is an adjustment happening to your aim.
> 
> By tying the extra loops with no gap you decrease how far apart you spread things out with the extra loops


Agree 100% with ya, thawk.



Two bows. Bow on the left is the APA Mamba 5. Two identical sized red rectangles, to show you the physical midpoint of the riser. D-loop is set at the height of the two berger holes. Bow on the right, is my OK Archery DST 40. You can see that on the DST 40, the physical midpoint of the riser is VERY VERY close to the height of the berger holes. If you set the d-loop at the height of the DST 40 berger holes, and you compare how much of a drop to the pivot point of the grip....the distance between the pivot point of the grip, and how far away you have the berger holes....this is the "torque arm" or torque wrench length for how the riser is going to hold. The APA Mamba 5, has MORE vertical distance between the grip pivot point and the berger hole position. So, unless the APA Mamba 5 is EXTREMELY bottom heavy, the Mamba 5 will need MORE front heavy balance, on the stabilizer system to "HOLD STEADY". If you put your d-loop on the Mamba 5 for a NOCK HIGH arrow, then, you increase the vertical distance between your d-loop and the pivot point of the grip, and you will PROBABLY need even MORE weight on your front stabilizer, to make the bow MORE front heavy (FOC), to get a "STEADY" hold. The OK Archery DST 40, has the pivot point of the grip and the berger holes rather CLOSE together. This is what bigHUN is referring to. For bows where the berger holes and the pivot point on the grip/riser are DESIGNED much closer together, and where the berger holes are at or very close to the physical mid point of the RISER...by DESIGN, you can achieve a "STEADY" hold with MUCH MUCH LESS front heavy balance, on your stabilizer system. Bottom line, some bows are more TIPPY and other bows are less TIPPY. ALL bows, the position of where you put the d-loop, will have a POSITIVE or a NEGATIVE effect on how "STEADY" you hold. BUT, a LEVEL d-loop or a SKY HIGH d-loop position, will combine with how you have your stabilizer system FOC balance set, and how well the draw length fits you, and whether you lean backwards somewhat, or lean backwards a LOT, or something in between.


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## xavier102772

EPLC, wouldn't it be logical, if you're injured, to stop shooting, rest and allow yourself to heal? I think it's just a little mental to keep shooting while injured. Or doing anything and expecting to perform worth crap when you're injured for that matter.

I've seen the video that you posted showing your shot. You have ZERO follow through. It's absolutely obvious to me and everyone else who has seen it that you are not building any back tension through your shot. No surprise that you're dropping out on the shot. 

There is a time and place for messing around with nock height, but until you address the two things I mentioned, nock height isn't gonna help a whole lot.


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## EPLC

I tried the rest thing between late August through late November and my shoulder only got worst. That said; I fail to see what my physical condition, follow through, form issues, age or anything personal to me has anything to do with the topic of nock height.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I tried the rest thing between late August through late November and my shoulder only got worst. That said; I fail to see what my physical condition, follow through, form issues, age or anything personal to me has anything to do with the topic of nock height.


It has everything to do with the issues you are having but as always, you are looking for some mechanical adjustment that will compensate for it. There is a fine line where skill reaches the benefit of tuning forgiveness. There's also a fine line where adjustments for forgiveness become tinkeritis.

If you really want to make it more forgiving of your poor follow through, focus more on creep tuning. Or better yet, focus on your form through the shot.


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## duc

Nock height has NOTHING to do with holding steady and EVERYTHING to do with bare shaft tuning and arrow flight. Why mess up a perfectly good tune for some perceived holding advantage? You'll get more AND better results from stabilizer/weight set-up, draw length or holding weight. 
Stop chasing fairies.


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## RCR_III

EPLC said:


> I tried the rest thing between late August through late November and my shoulder only got worst. That said; I fail to see what my physical condition, follow through, form issues, age or anything personal to me has anything to do with the topic of nock height.


Much as Cbrunson said, and I'll be blunt with you as well because I see your threads and know you're struggling. I also see you'd like to improve. 

If you want to improve, if you want better shooting, if you want to see gains again, you have to look at you. You have to fix the issues in form and shot execution. You have to realize where you're at and what you're doing now isn't working. Scrap it and start fresh in a different direction. 

Build things up from the base. Do it right. And see what improves. The only concern I have is your shoulder and if you'll have to work around the issues with it and not be able to fully expand and pull. Once you get aligned better you can use your back more. Take some of the load off the shoulder. That'll be helpful if your body is able to get you to that point. 

To answer your question on what all of that has to do with nock height. Changing nock height helps the affect of your pull. If you're not pulling you can put that loop anywhere you want and not see much if any difference. And right now, you can't pull without hurting the shoulder because the body is compressed and using the muscles and joints to support. 

You want to change something one more time to get radical before you re work form? Just to rule out the nock height. 

Take your nocking points and loop and cut them off. Run the arrow rest up till the bottom of your arrow is no lower than mid way through the Berger button hole. Heck, put it 3/4 of the way up it. 

Then re tie nock points for the nock height you run. Put a new loop on. Re time your cams. Move your peep up to match the new height. Then shoot and see what happens. 

You'll either see a fix in that. Or you'll see an over correction. Or you'll see nothing. 

But you'll know once and for all which direction to go after this.


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## EPLC

Once again, the topic is about effects of nock height, it is not let's fix EPLC. While I appreciate the concern, I do look to myself more than anything else. I also know that I'm not working at 100% which is a challenge. As far as my shoulder situation, I'm seeing both a chiropractor bi-weekly and a physical therapist twice weekly. Both are helping and neither has suggested I stop shooting. Shooting actually helps my situation. I started out with a 15# kids bow in November and have worked myself up from there. My accuracy still suffers because my bow side still isn't recovered enough yet. From an equipment standpoint, I know there are no magic pills but I do need the most forgiving setup that I can muster. This is the reason I asked about nock point, no more no less.


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## thawk

duc said:


> Nock height has NOTHING to do with holding steady and EVERYTHING to do with bare shaft tuning and arrow flight. Why mess up a perfectly good tune for some perceived holding advantage? You'll get more AND better results from stabilizer/weight set-up, draw length or holding weight.
> Stop chasing fairies.


Why mess up a good tune for a better aiming bow? I think your answer is in your question. I would much rather have bad arrow flight and a bow that sits on the dot then perfect arrow flight that go all over the place because I can't keep my aiming pin on the dot.

When the shot breaks the arrow goes where the pin was, weather it wobbles a little or flys perfect.

Talked with a buddy the other day and we had similar story's, he was shooting real good a couple years ago at indoors, (300 25+X vegas rounds) a guy came to his shop and they were tuning his bow, bow had about 1/4 high left tare and the shop owner said he would leave it there cause he doesn't like a perfect hole. The customer asked to see the owners bow and the tear it had, well it was about 2.5" hight left. He retuned it to a perfect hole, then shot a round, a whooping 293 with low X's he left it alone and shot it the next day, 294 and still low X's. He went back to how it was 2.5" tear and shot a 300 27x he also said the 293/4 rounds felt just as good as the 300 when shooting them.
A perfectly tuned bow is not always the one that shoots the best, when tournaments start awarding extra points for good arrow flight I will care more about tune the aim


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## bigHUN

I would disagree with all folks who prefers a good hold sacrificing a good arrow flight. 
#1 A good hold have good aim, and
#2 the arrow may not go where you point your pin....what further out you aim to longer distances more you can get disappointed...
If you don't hold well with that particular bow then not much can help, that its garbage and better take an other one, you shall not get it at the first place.
Nobody can convince me that the fletching -can and will- fix a flight if the arrow leaves the bow full of flaws, very easily could happen make it worst.
Shoot a bareshaft to let say 30 or 40 yards, read the signs it will show you where the nocking point (and d-loop) must go...based on your cams timing, even -or- uneven limbs preload and most importantly your grip position....how many different ways you can grab the grip is ....up to that bow.
Now, very unfortunate is that because of many possible - different health issues we may not enjoying high rankings anymore, well, that is a life, we can still go fishing, or chasing speed tickets, or chasing girls or many other thing are there in life we never tried...sorry, I just wanted to say if not working well anymore maybe time for changing hobby.


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## SonnyThomas

thawk said:


> Talked with a buddy the other day and we had similar story's, he was shooting real good a couple years ago at indoors, (300 25+X vegas rounds) a guy came to his shop and they were tuning his bow, bow had about 1/4 high left tare and the shop owner said he would leave it there cause he doesn't like a perfect hole. The customer asked to see the owners bow and the tear it had, well it was about 2.5" hight left. He retuned it to a perfect hole, then shot a round, a whooping 293 with low X's he left it alone and shot it the next day, 294 and still low X's. He went back to how it was 2.5" tear and shot a 300 27x he also said the 293/4 rounds felt just as good as the 300 when shooting them.
> A perfectly tuned bow is not always the one that shoots the best, when tournaments start awarding extra points for good arrow flight I will care more about tune the aim


The above here is of days of old and it works for close distances like Indoors and some still use it today. This is making a arrow correct it's self the same way each and every time. Said is a paper tear slightly high and slightly left or right is desired. And then paper tuning is but one step of tuning a bow. I prefer French tuning. Once French tuned, which includes playing with the arrow rest or nock height to tighten groups, I could care less what paper tears show unless something radical.


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## thawk

It might be the old way, but it works just as good today as it did then, it is still used by many. It works just as well for outdoor field rounds as for indoors.
Talking to a good friend this year and she also feels when her bow is tuned to a perfect hole through paper her bows are far less forgiving. 
What I find funny is AT is the only place where I find people that feel arrow tune is more important then how a bow aims.
Don't get me wrong I always want good arrow flight, but not if my bow is less forgiving or if it doesn't aim well.

I'll get the hooter shooter out this summer and shoot some groups at around 80 yards, with varied states of tune, maybe it will change my mind.


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## duc

thawk said:


> It might be the old way, but it works just as good today as it did then, it is still used by many. It works just as well for outdoor field rounds as for indoors.
> Talking to a good friend this year and she also feels when her bow is tuned to a perfect hole through paper her bows are far less forgiving.
> What I find funny is AT is the only place where I find people that feel arrow tune is more important then how a bow aims.
> Don't get me wrong I always want good arrow flight, but not if my bow is less forgiving or if it doesn't aim well.
> 
> I'll get the hooter shooter out this summer and shoot some groups at around 80 yards, with varied states of tune, maybe it will change my mind.


I agree with you wholeheartedly about arrow flight and grouping. But say as much here on AT and you'll be hammered. It is an unfortunate reality that most people equate poor arrow flight with poor grouping. It is for most people though a phychologic advantage to have good arrow flight. I still maintain that there is little to no gain in changing nock point for a steady hold and changing stab weight is far more beneficial.


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## bigHUN

Many would agree that paper is good for wiping only, we don't shoot 1 or 5 or 10 yards, 
the bow is a machine and shall perform with same qualities at 20 and 50 and 80, you work with it until it will do, if can not doit it is maybe a time to put it aside, take a brake or take an other hobby.
When I see people showing their 4" fletching that tells me only one thing, they can not post a value here @ IA. 
If can not bareshaft tune at least 30 or better 40 yards, shall not post a very important voice here @ IA.
Asking questions is right if want to advance but please, how can justify if the end result is (most likely) not what you like.

Last year season was good, not excellent but not that so bad, but I got a little disappointed loosing a gold in Field. I put the bow aside, I wanted to take a brake to reset. 
In the last month I started training again preparing for start in a season, shooting full rounds with bareshafts only, couple practice rounds with a horizontal line, then I rotate the line like this "\" and like this "/" and then full score rings. 
With bareshafts. You shall try very educational.


----------



## SonnyThomas

thawk said:


> It might be the old way, but it works just as good today as it did then, it is still used by many. It works just as well for outdoor field rounds as for indoors.
> Talking to a good friend this year and she also feels when her bow is tuned to a perfect hole through paper her bows are far less forgiving.
> What I find funny is AT is the only place where I find people that feel arrow tune is more important then how a bow aims.
> Don't get me wrong I always want good arrow flight, but not if my bow is less forgiving or if it doesn't aim well.
> 
> I'll get the hooter shooter out this summer and shoot some groups at around 80 yards, with varied states of tune, maybe it will change my mind.


Well, kind of lost here. Who moves a nocking point 1/16" or even a 1/8" to make a bow hold well? If a bow holds well one should be able to aim well. As for the Hooter Shooter, a bow will shoot tight groups, say 2", out to 60 yards (seems always given) with arrows of weak spine, correct spine and too stiff a spine, just impact at different points. Said is a mechanically sound bow will repeat. So a mechanically sound bow not so well tuned should still repeat beings it's shot with a mechanical device, the Hooter Shooter. The arrow may fish tail, it may porpoise, it may do both, but still impact in a tight group. 

Time and time again, here on AT it's a bare shaft, period. Talk with a arrow or vane company. In this case, a N.A.P. technician gave of weighting the bare shaft at the point of vane placement with weight equal to the vanes to be used, Scotch or electrical tape. So here on AT, forcing a arrow 15 grs lighter to impact with the heavier fletched shaft?

And then we have Bernie Pellerite; "If you can't shoot 30 arrows with exactly the same form and execution, then the perfectly tuned bow can't save you. Therefore; _The Paradox of Tuning - "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form; and if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant." _


----------



## cbrunson

What I find most interesting about this topic is that every time a thread comes up about holding or float, or release execution, there seems to be a distinct division in philosophies. 

The pattern I’ve noticed is that one side nearly always places the answers to issue on the equipment set up, while the other tends to put the focus on adaptation, or training the body to perform with somewhat set conditions.

I have what I feel is a pretty good system for sorting the two out, and I believe everyone would benefit from it. First, learn how to make a perfect shot. Just once, then try to repeat it. Study your sight picture. The only way you will know if it was a perfect shot, is if you are watching for it. Know where the dot or pin was when the shot broke. Learn how to hold it in the middle. Do it without shooting. Learn how tension, or lack thereof in your bow arm affects movement to minimize it. Then work on a release execution that has minimal effect on it. Until you get these simple basics under control, you will never see the benefit of any forgiveness tuning. 

The answer every time for the question of “what do I adjust if my bow wants to hold low”, is your brain. For the question of it dropping out the bottom, well, what did you do different when you sighted in and it didn’t drop out the bottom? Whatever it was, do that, because your bow didn’t change. You did. There are a lot of things you can do with tuning to make it more forgiving, but if you are asking the two above questions, you need to work on you.

Learning to hold it in the middle and good follow through are the two most difficult things to learn in this sport. The more time you spend working on those instead of tinkering with your bow will be your best investment.


----------



## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, kind of lost here. Who moves a nocking point 1/16" or even a 1/8" to make a bow hold well? If a bow holds well one should be able to aim well. As for the Hooter Shooter, a bow will shoot tight groups, say 2", out to 60 yards (seems always given) with arrows of weak spine, correct spine and too stiff a spine, just impact at different points. Said is a mechanically sound bow will repeat. So a mechanically sound bow not so well tuned should still repeat beings it's shot with a mechanical device, the Hooter Shooter. The arrow may fish tail, it may porpoise, it may do both, but still impact in a tight group.
> 
> Time and time again, here on AT it's a bare shaft, period. Talk with a arrow or vane company. In this case, a N.A.P. technician gave of weighting the bare shaft at the point of vane placement with weight equal to the vanes to be used, Scotch or electrical tape. So here on AT, forcing a arrow 15 grs lighter to impact with the heavier fletched shaft?
> 
> And then we have Bernie Pellerite; "If you can't shoot 30 arrows with exactly the same form and execution, then the perfectly tuned bow can't save you. Therefore; _The Paradox of Tuning - "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form; and if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant." _


Excellent post. ^^^^^

Might also mention that you can't rule out inconsistencies from one shaft to the next.


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## Padgett

I enjoy good arrow flight and it is something that I know how to get but there have been so many times where I simply do not care, in fact many times through a season I will have my bow hitting dead on right behind the pin and during those periods I will not check anything on my bow because I don't want to know if the cables stretched and there is a slight tear that would happen if I shot through paper. During those periods I will just compete and enjoy the bow hitting dead on and then when I have a break where there is no big shoot coming up I will check it and if it needs tweaked I will do it. I never have really seen a difference in my accuracy between my bow being a little off and really solid when it comes to arrow flight with my bare shaft. I think I live in the window of acceptability where when it is perfect or slightly off the fletching can stabilize the arrow and it hits where it is supposed to. 

For example this week is paris texas ASA and I just put on a string set this last friday and I tuned it on saturday and got it hitting dead on. This week I will not be messing with it anymore and my only focus will be for it to be dead on by moving my sights only. Sure the cables and the strings are going to settle in a little so the sights may need to be moved a few times and the arrow flight may not be as solid as it was on saturday once a few hundred arrows go through it this week but I truly believe that it will be dead on this weekend like it always it and compliment my shooting on the course. Then next week I can tweak it a little if needed.


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> What I find most interesting about this topic is that every time a thread comes up about holding or float, or release execution, there seems to be a distinct division in philosophies.
> 
> The pattern I’ve noticed is that one side nearly always places the answers to issue on the equipment set up, while the other tends to put the focus on adaptation, or training the body to perform with somewhat set conditions.
> 
> I have what I feel is a pretty good system for sorting the two out, and I believe everyone would benefit from it. First, learn how to make a perfect shot. Just once, then try to repeat it. Study your sight picture. The only way you will know if it was a perfect shot, is if you are watching for it. Know where the dot or pin was when the shot broke. Learn how to hold it in the middle. Do it without shooting. Learn how tension, or lack thereof in your bow arm affects movement to minimize it. Then work on a release execution that has minimal effect on it. Until you get these simple basics under control, you will never see the benefit of any forgiveness tuning.
> 
> The answer every time for the question of “what do I adjust if my bow wants to hold low”, is your brain. For the question of it dropping out the bottom, well, what did you do different when you sighted in and it didn’t drop out the bottom? Whatever it was, do that, because your bow didn’t change. You did. There are a lot of things you can do with tuning to make it more forgiving, but if you are asking the two above questions, you need to work on you.
> 
> Learning to hold it in the middle and good follow through are the two most difficult things to learn in this sport. The more time you spend working on those instead of tinkering with your bow will be your best investment.


The answer every time for the bow holding low is not your brain. If the bow is set up and holding low from the get go, and you know you're solid in shooting, it's the bow. Which is the reason why on my Podium the arrow runs through the top half of the Berger button hole. Because now I don't fight it to be able to use the grip degree offset I like for my bow arm to relax. Now I settle straight in the middle and stay there because I matched the pulling source to my grip. 

Now, if this scenario isn't the case. It's very likely it could be mental. But not always. There's too many variables in archery for that statement the majority of the time. Mental differences, physical differences, equipment differences, shot type differences. Too many variables.


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## SonnyThomas

RCR_III said:


> The answer every time for the bow holding low is not your brain. If the bow is set up and holding low from the get go, and you know you're solid in shooting, it's the bow. Which is the reason why on my Podium the arrow runs through the top half of the Berger button hole. Because now I don't fight it to be able to use the grip degree offset I like for my bow arm to relax. Now I settle straight in the middle and stay there because I matched the pulling source to my grip.
> 
> Now, if this scenario isn't the case. It's very likely it could be mental. But not always. There's too many variables in archery for that statement the majority of the time. Mental differences, physical differences, equipment differences, shot type differences. Too many variables.


EPLC is asking of nock height. Bow to bow there may a difference in arrow to Berger hole. Still, told to me I don't know how many times is; Center of the shaft no lower than the bottom of the Berger hole and center of shaft no higher than the top of the Berger hole. So that of 1/4". 16 years and I've never gone outside of the Berger hole and not that I'm saying one couldn't find a "sweet spot" outside of the Berger hole. This "sweet spot" is for the bow, not necessarily for the shooter.


----------



## RCR_III

Sonny it's not for nock travel that I'm going over. And I'm not saying going outside of the Berger button hole either. It's for changing the angle you pull from. For pulling the top of the grip towards you more or for pulling the bottom of the grip towards you more. Even John Dudley has written and talked about this topic.


----------



## EPLC

:rockhard:
The beat goes on, beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

Charleston was once the rage, uh huh
History has turned the page, uh huh
The miniskirt's the current thing, uh huh
Teenybopper is our newborn king, uh huh

And the beat goes on, beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

The grocery store's the supermart, uh huh
Little girls still break their hearts, uh huh
And men still keep on marching off to war
Electrically they keep a baseball score

And the beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

Grandmas sit in chairs and reminisce
Boys keep chasing girls to get a kiss
The cars keep a going faster all the time
Bums still cries, "Hey buddy, have you got a dime?"

And the beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

And the beat goes on, yes, the beat goes on
And the beat goes on, and the beat goes on
The beat goes on and the beat goes on
The beat goes

Songwriters
BONO, SONNY

Published by
Lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc.


----------



## cbrunson

Question RCR, Are you trying to bring your low sag up when you pull harder, or do you contend that when all is locked in and you are sitting on the stops with a completely relaxed bow arm, it somehow sits higher because you micro-adjusted your tiller? Assuming you never change the height of your target of course. 

With these newer, more parallel limbed bows, you are changing nock travel more than you are tilting the riser. I think you'd be much better off working on your grip, if that's what you think you need to do to hold it in the middle. 

Another question, do you relax your hand too, or do you palm the hell out of it?



To throw another curve ball at this scenario, now move from 20 yards out to 80 yards. Now you've just moved your sight housing down probably about an inch to an inch and a half, effectively changing the angle of your riser with respect to your peep and anchor. It certainly changed it more than moving your nock point a 1/4" up the string did. Does your ability to hold in the middle change?


----------



## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> Question RCR, Are you trying to bring your low sag up when you pull harder, or do you contend that when all is locked in and you are sitting on the stops with a completely relaxed bow arm, it somehow sits higher because you micro-adjusted your tiller? Assuming you never change the height of your target of course.
> 
> With these newer, more parallel limbed bows, you are changing nock travel more than you are tilting the riser. I think you'd be much better off working on your grip, if that's what you think you need to do to hold it in the middle.
> 
> Another question, do you relax your hand too, or do you palm the hell out of it?
> 
> 
> 
> To throw another curve ball at this scenario, now move from 20 yards out to 80 yards. Now you've just moved your sight housing down probably about an inch to an inch and a half, effectively changing the angle of your riser with respect to your peep and anchor. It certainly changed it more than moving your nock point a 1/4" up the string did. Does your ability to hold in the middle change?


I use a medium to high grip. Somewhere in the middle of those. I use the 4 degree grip on my Podium and that places my hand at an angle that's comfortable and doesn't put tension into my forearm. 

With this set up, I have some push going into the top of the grip. With the arrow centered in the Berger button hole and the nocking points and loop set at 90 I found the push I had going into the top of the grip was causing me to fight a vertical float pattern. 

So I moved the bottom of my arrow up to the center of the Berger button hole and re set nocking points, loop, and initial cam timing. Then re tuned from there. With this set up, I'm not fighting a vertical float anymore. It sits right in the middle. I changed my stabilizers just a tad to adjust for yardages from up close, 20 and in, all the way out to 100 yards. 

So for me and my grip style it works best. I'm not going to change my grip. I went that route at first. Created tension in my forearm and inconsistencies. So why go that route, right. Instead, I used what my natural body set up needed and worked optimally at and modified my tool, the bow, to fit that. 

So many things in life relating to tools comes back to leverage. Fulcrum points. I changed my fulcrum point, point of pull with loop, to match what I needed. 

Will this work for EPLC. I don't know. What I proposed at the beginning is to try it and eliminate one thing. He asked about effect of loop height. My retort to this is test it and see. If it doesn't fix the problem. It's something else. Or a combination of something else.


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## cbrunson

Hmmm. I thought this was about holding low or dropping out the bottom. 

I've found another ounce on the front bar cleans up vertical movement nicely with the complementary two to the back to keep it easy to aim.

There certainly isn't any issues with changing your nock travel with tiller adjustment to get the grip to be more comfortable in your hand. Especially if you have some firm, fixed favorite wrist position that creates enough tension in your bow arm that you just can't hold steady without it. But it certainly does not fix a low hold. A low hold is mental. You literally have the entire wall or target butt you could aim anywhere at any time. If you hold 1-1/2" low at a spot at the bottom of the target face, then move up to the spot at the top, 4-8 inches higher, and have the same problem, holding 1-1/2" low. It is you. *Your bow will go where you point it.*  If it pulls low when you try to execute and you know with absolute certainty that your form is not breaking down, then it has to be a cam synch issue. Bottom hitting before the top. It more than likely is bad follow through though.

Simple stuff here.

edit- excessive uneven tiller will also cause pin movement when you pull harder.


----------



## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> Hmmm. I thought this was about holding low or dropping out the bottom.
> 
> I've found another ounce on the front bar cleans up vertical movement nicely with the complementary two to the back to keep it easy to aim.
> 
> There certainly isn't any issues with changing your nock travel with tiller adjustment to get the grip to be more comfortable in your hand. Especially if you have some firm, fixed favorite wrist position that creates enough tension in your bow arm that you just can't hold steady without it. But it certainly does not fix a low hold. A low hold is mental. You literally have the entire wall or target butt you could aim anywhere at any time. If you hold 1-1/2" low at a spot at the bottom of the target face, then move up to the spot at the top, 4-8 inches higher, and have the same problem, holding 1-1/2" low. It is you. *Your bow will go where you point it.* If it pulls low when you try to execute and you know with absolute certainty that your form is not breaking down, then it has to be a cam synch issue. Bottom hitting before the top. It more than likely is bad follow through though.
> 
> Simple stuff here.
> 
> edit- excessive uneven tiller will also cause pin movement when you pull harder.


I know you're a self admitted pot stirrer and arguer just to see/hear yourself. 

If you'd taken the time to read through my post you would have seen where the change in loop height was for a vertical float issue. Bobbing down then fighting it back up. That's why the loop height change works. Again. This isn't just my theory. It's a theory I got from John Dudley. 

You can argue to see yourself post all you want. My findings work or I wouldn't put them on here.


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## erdman41

Funny how it's always low. Never hear my dot settles in like a rock just above the spot and have a hard time bringing it down.

Also funny how it doesn't matter where on the backstop the target is pinned. Spot could be shoulder height or at your knees. Still low.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> I know you're a self admitted pot stirrer and arguer just to see/hear yourself.
> 
> If you'd taken the time to read through my post you would have seen where the change in loop height was for a vertical float issue. Bobbing down then fighting it back up. That's why the loop height change works. Again. This isn't just my theory. It's a theory I got from John Dudley.
> 
> You can argue to see yourself post all you want. My findings work or I wouldn't put them on here.


My statement is clear to the point of what I feel is correct. Your assumptions about my statements seem to be based on your emotional connection with whatever you believe is being implied. 

What I have stated has absolutely no connection with how I feel personally about you. That has been clearly stated as the direction this forum needs to go. I see no need to respond with similar dialogue.


----------



## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> My statement is clear to the point of what I feel is correct. Your assumptions about my statements seem to be based on your emotional connection with whatever you believe is being implied.
> 
> What I have stated has absolutely no connection with how I feel personally about you. That has been clearly stated as the direction this forum needs to go. I see no need to respond with similar dialogue.


Your statement is incorrect. Plain and simple. Your statement is based off a closed minded outcome you've arranged for yourself from your beginning post in this thread. 

As I said. Loop height helped with a vertical float issue from pressures in the grip driving the bow down. 

Your intent to guide the original post from the op to an immediate diagnosis of target panic is ill advised. 

Even if it was. You can't blanket statement yourself in to say a low hold is target panic. 

He needs help bringing his site up. Changing the loop could help. Changing stabilizers could help. Changing pulling forces could help. Changing bow arm and shoulder could help. Changing of the body through exercise could help. Fixing a target panic event could help. 

There's a long list. Yes including target panic. But there could be so much more. 

That's evolved into your argument with me and my theory. And as I've said. It's a proven theory. It works. In the right circumstance. And that's why I said if the op needed to rule it out. Do it and see what happens.


----------



## thawk

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, kind of lost here. Who moves a nocking point 1/16" or even a 1/8" to make a bow hold well? If a bow holds well one should be able to aim well. As for the Hooter Shooter, a bow will shoot tight groups, say 2", out to 60 yards (seems always given) with arrows of weak spine, correct spine and too stiff a spine, just impact at different points. Said is a mechanically sound bow will repeat. So a mechanically sound bow not so well tuned should still repeat beings it's shot with a mechanical device, the Hooter Shooter. The arrow may fish tail, it may porpoise, it may do both, but still impact in a tight group.
> 
> Time and time again, here on AT it's a bare shaft, period. Talk with a arrow or vane company. In this case, a N.A.P. technician gave of weighting the bare shaft at the point of vane placement with weight equal to the vanes to be used, Scotch or electrical tape. So here on AT, forcing a arrow 15 grs lighter to impact with the heavier fletched shaft?
> 
> And then we have Bernie Pellerite; "If you can't shoot 30 arrows with exactly the same form and execution, then the perfectly tuned bow can't save you. Therefore; _The Paradox of Tuning - "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form; and if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant." _


What are you lost about?
Who moves a nocking point to make their bow aim better? Well, I guess anyone that wants their bow to aim better. Why is that so difficult thing to understand? If I have the option of a bow that aims in the 10 ring or one that aims in the x ring, I'll take the x ring every time. Sometime I get a bow and its awesome right from the start, sometimes I can never seem to get it to aim as well as another bow, I can try weight, stabilizer length, position, location, if none of that works I start with things like nock point location, tiller and even shims taped to the grip, if I find a shim on the grip is what works, I'll build it up with bondo. I have also taken a rasp file to a brand new bow to change the grip. I'm not going to relearn my shot for a new bow, I'll make the bow work for me.

Bighun, you said you don't shoot 1-5-10 yards, but then said you missed the gold on a field shoot, do you guys no shoot 10 yards on a fiels round?
We shoot from 2-110 at our local shoots every weekend, so when you say "we don't shot 1-5-10" you're only talking for yourself and not for anyone on the west coast or that shoots field rounds.
Do you know Cabe Johnson from spot hogg? You should ask his opinion on bare shaft tuning, but then if you did you would think he would have value to be in the AI forum


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## grantmac

Let's be clear: the 30 foot shot in Field is a gimme. You miss that and it was a major oops. You can hit it with arrows flying practically sideways. The 80yd shot is a different story unless you have absolutely zero wind. A poorly tuned arrow drifts far more than a well tuned one.

As with many things I'd take that statement from Bernie with a large grain of salt, maybe a slice of lemon and some tequila.
If you can keep all your arrows in a 5" group at 30yds you can tune. I'd argue that certain forms of tuning with even benefit you more.

Grant


----------



## thawk

Dave Cousins came out last year for a few outlaw archers shoots, one was Nevada County Sportsman. We shoot 60 targets from 4-94 yards, two arrows per target just like the western classic, Dave missed one point. guess what distance. Yep 4 yards. That's why there are no gimmes in archery.


----------



## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> Your statement is incorrect. Plain and simple. Your statement is based off a closed minded outcome you've arranged for yourself from your beginning post in this thread.
> 
> As I said. Loop height helped with a vertical float issue from pressures in the grip driving the bow down.
> 
> Your intent to guide the original post from the op to an immediate diagnosis of target panic is ill advised.
> 
> Even if it was. You can't blanket statement yourself in to say a low hold is target panic.
> 
> He needs help bringing his site up. Changing the loop could help. Changing stabilizers could help. Changing pulling forces could help. Changing bow arm and shoulder could help. Changing of the body through exercise could help. Fixing a target panic event could help.
> 
> There's a long list. Yes including target panic. But there could be so much more.
> 
> That's evolved into your argument with me and my theory. And as I've said. It's a proven theory. It works. In the right circumstance. And that's why I said if the op needed to rule it out. Do it and see what happens.


You're not going to get the response from me you're looking for. 

Feel free to assert your position as you wish. I've reached enough people this time. 

As far as Paul goes, he's been here long enough to see this question asked and answered every possible way by both professionals and amateurs. I'm sure he read the same article you borrowed your expertise from long before you did.


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> You're not going to get the response from me you're looking for.
> 
> Feel free to assert your position as you wish. I've reached enough people this time.
> 
> As far as Paul goes, he's been here long enough to see this question asked and answered every possible way by both professionals and amateurs. I'm sure he read the same article you borrowed your expertise from long before you did.


This response does well enough for me. As you said, you reached enough people this time. You played your games like you always do. For someone with such self informed knowledge, you don't share enough of it to contribute in positive manners here. At one point I'm told you did. I've yet to see it though. Darn shame.


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## SonnyThomas

thawk said:


> What are you lost about?
> Who moves a nocking point to make their bow aim better? Well, I guess anyone that wants their bow to aim better. Why is that so difficult thing to understand? If I have the option of a bow that aims in the 10 ring or one that aims in the x ring, I'll take the x ring every time. Sometime I get a bow and its awesome right from the start, sometimes I can never seem to get it to aim as well as another bow, I can try weight, stabilizer length, position, location, if none of that works I start with things like nock point location, tiller and even shims taped to the grip, if I find a shim on the grip is what works, I'll build it up with bondo. I have also taken a rasp file to a brand new bow to change the grip. I'm not going to relearn my shot for a new bow, I'll make the bow work for me.
> 
> Bighun, you said you don't shoot 1-5-10 yards, but then said you missed the gold on a field shoot, do you guys no shoot 10 yards on a fiels round?
> We shoot from 2-110 at our local shoots every weekend, so when you say "we don't shot 1-5-10" you're only talking for yourself and not for anyone on the west coast or that shoots field rounds.
> Do you know Cabe Johnson from spot hogg? You should ask his opinion on bare shaft tuning, but then if you did you would think he would have value to be in the AI forum


The "lost" part was you agreeing with I had as if I put something wrong. There, I should have started a new paragraph. The shortest target bow I've owned is one of my present, 37 1/2" and the longest 41 1/2". I find really to accept moving the nocking point 1/16" or even 1/8" is going to change my hold (What EPLC is asking). To me hold and aiming are two different things though interactive.

Throw in Bare shaft tuning where the arrow rest or nocking point is changed in height..... 

John Dudley has a few articles surrounding the nocking point, but then playing with the tiller, changing limb pressure and more to find optimum position. And have outright respect for John. Ticks me off the his article site (Nock On) is no longer used, it's void of everything. 

Someone noted field14. Tom has given of the d-loop being equal back to the string, like such ">". Anything other than and something needs corrected.
I've seen some of Tom's work for setting up. He is quite amazing.


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> This response does well enough for me. As you said, you reached enough people this time. You played your games like you always do. For someone with such self informed knowledge, you don't share enough of it to contribute in positive manners here. At one point I'm told you did. I've yet to see it though. Darn shame.


That's where you're wrong. The right people for the right reasons are being reached. No games. No charge.


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> That's where you're wrong. The right people for the right reasons are being reached. No games. No charge.


You're still hung up on that huh. The world's built on businesses. Businesses and sponsors support the website you post on. 

Besides. I didn't charge a dime for all I posted in this thread ;-)


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## nestly

I would simply say to those who would argue that nock height doesn't matter that they should move their nock point up 1/2 inch from it's current location and do some real world testing in lieu of theorizing about why it shouldn't matter. And before anyone says 1/2" is too much, and the nock/arrow needs to be no higher nor lower than than the berger button, Matthews target bows have their berger buttons 1-1/2" LOWER than Hoyt target bows.


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> You're still hung up on that huh. The world's built on businesses. Businesses and sponsors support the website you post on.
> 
> Besides. I didn't charge a dime for all I posted in this thread ;-)


My concern is with the topic. Don't try to make it something more.


----------



## bigHUN

Now you guys forced me to go downstairs to my basement, unpacked my bowcase just to check the bow. I have this my bow for a full year and never look at the berger hole before until now for a first time. 
Guess what? My arrow is about 1/2" completely below the berger hole! and it is a big shaft, an XBuster. And my rest is a Beiter with huge vertical adjustment maybe the only one what can go that so low resting point.
I set that nock height with shooting bareshaft @30, then I set the resting point, then I creep tuned (I believe not more then one single twist to advance the lower cam for about 1 millimeter) and I have about 1/2" nock high (bareshaft!!) just checked last weekend at my 20 yard indoor range. Because I started my preparation for outdoor season and I am training shooting bareshafts only. Because that projectile is flying uncontrolled, no fletching to correct or fix the flaws..... I am training the consistency, the winter was way too long and need to get back to my "shape".

What I wanted to say again, the Berger hole is there, it is some sort of industry standard in recent years for rigging the rest and nothing else, it is not for measuring not as a reference point for anything.
My standpoint is pure mechanical minded and believe me I am good at it, 
you may be a way better shooter then me but I will catch you up with "tricks"
my fletching will not wrestle with the shaft oscillation, my arrows will stabilize faster, if both of us loose all the fletching after 132 arrows I can still beat you with remaining 12 (this happened to me 2 years ago when the full FITA was 90-70-50-30 meters), when the fatique will kick in and both of us start dropping the bow arm my arrows will hit higher, and my promise goes on and on.

So, back to the nocking point, you can not just eyeball it "there" wherever you want, that location is driven by many important variables, you can not set it with a hootershooter or I can set it for you but you will still have to fine tune it for yourself tweaking with wrong things. So, why not put it to the right position in the first place? In the center of the string length what is not wrapped on the cams (at the full draw).

The other thing, I have difficulties to believe you move the nocking point 1/4" "here and there" and that will so much improve your hold....but again if floats your boat then we can not convince you otherwise


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## duc

Mr. cbrunson. You are making to much sense. We can't have people's long held beliefs broken. 
There are a few realities in archery that most people don't want to accept. 
Most people don't train or bore themselves silly with endless repartition.
Most people shoot repetitiously and reinforced bad habits without knowing why.
Most people won't believe you can hold dead still. 
Most people don't understand time management when the pin is still. 
Most people don't want to accept that the arrow lands where you shot it, not where you thought you shot it. 
Archery as a sport that is almost entirely in your head, regardless of equipment choices. 
Bow tuning is overrated. Immensely.
Archer tuning is underrated. Immensely.

Flame away.


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## thawk

I have had many bows set up low of the Berger hole just like bighun's bow, for different reasons but still low of the hole and they both shot and tuned great.
I can't say I agree that one persons arrows will hit higher then another's because of now arm dropping, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

How I found out about nock location making a difference wasn't by reading what someone else wrote, or watching a video, or advise from another archer. If was from first hand experience by mistake. When that happens it really sinks in because you weren't trying to make you bow aim better, or trying is prove a theory right or wrong. You just noticed a difference and then tried to find out how it happened.
Way back in 2001 when using a D-loop was still considered "new technology" I was trying one out. I tuned my bow and when I was shooting I noticed it aimed much better. WTH???? Why is it aiming better? Took the loop off, went back to a rope and the aim went back to how it was before. I must have tied a loop on and off the bow 25 times over the next couple days. Finally I was 100% sure the bow was aiming better with the loop then without and it wasn't just me. But why?? I called Frank Pearson and he explained it to me, he also said I could do the same thing with tiller and I just got the bow in its sweet spot for me.
Keep in mind this was before back bars unless you wanted a fixe 45* vbar mount and almost nobody shot and type of back bar.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that doesn't believe it or me, but ELPC asked and that is what I have found to be true, also in the last 16 years I have used nock location and tiller to make my bows aim better.

Sonny, to me hold and aim are the same so that would explain some of our misunderstand of each other


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## Lazarus

duc said:


> Mr. cbrunson. You are making to much sense. We can't have people's long held beliefs broken.
> There are a few realities in archery that most people don't want to accept.
> Most people don't train or bore themselves silly with endless repartition.
> Most people shoot repetitiously and reinforced bad habits without knowing why.
> Most people won't believe you can hold dead still.
> Most people don't understand time management when the pin is still.
> Most people don't want to accept that the arrow lands where you shot it, not where you thought you shot it.
> Archery as a sport that is almost entirely in your head, regardless of equipment choices.
> *Bow tuning is overrated. Immensely.
> Archer tuning is underrated. Immensely.*
> 
> Flame away.


Every now and then a gem appears here. Above is one, summarized fully in the red.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> The "lost" part was you agreeing with I had as if I put something wrong. There, I should have started a new paragraph. The shortest target bow I've owned is one of my present, 37 1/2" and the longest 41 1/2". I find really *hard *to accept moving the nocking point 1/16" or even 1/8" is going to change my hold (What EPLC is asking). To me hold and aiming are two different things though interactive.
> .


correction.........


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## SonnyThomas

Bow tuning is overrated. Immensely.
Archer tuning is underrated. Immensely.



Lazarus said:


> Every now and then a gem appears here. Above is one, summarized fully in the red.


Laz, I got hammered years back giving that same thing. Bow Tuning is Secondary...


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## nestly

Jesse Broadwater seems to think nock height matters. He talked about it with this years Podium, as he did previously for the Pro Comp. Unfortunately he doesn't go into detail about determining the final location. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2qcDCjclhk (1:45)


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## EPLC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naJQyQpAfJM

Notice at about 13:00 in, after winning the gold, Braden points happily at his new bow. Explain this. 

While there is no question that archery is a mental game, equipment does matter. As for myself, I can testify that some bows have shot better for me than others, and some I couldn't hit anything with. Even with those that I've succeeded with, little tweaks have made them better and more forgiving. I'm not going to fight a piece of equipment, I want my equipment to fit me. Right now I'm shooting a Podium X 40 that I love. Does that mean I'm not supposed to make it as forgiving as possible for me? I think not. I also just bought a TRG7. That said, do I think equipment is a magic pill that will put me on the podium with the likes of Braden, no.


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## thawk

duc said:


> Nock height has NOTHING to do with holding steady and EVERYTHING to do with bare shaft tuning and arrow flight. Why mess up a perfectly good tune for some perceived holding advantage? You'll get more AND better results from stabilizer/weight set-up, draw length or holding weight.
> Stop chasing fairies.


Thanks for the video nestly, But what does Jessie know? Who is he anyway? and what makes him think he can tell if small adjustment in nock height will make a bow aim better? When I'm looking for the end all answers I'll ask duc or bighun cause they know nock height has NOTHING to do with how a bow aims


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## cbrunson

duc said:


> Bow tuning is overrated. Immensely.
> Archer tuning is underrated. Immensely.
> 
> Flame away.


One of the things I've noticed with most of the guys I've shot with is the absolute refusal to put in the time behind the string without completely changing something every other time they shoot. Whether it be the release or something on the bow, they just can not accept that they're mentally (or physically) weak when it comes to letting a good shot develop. It has to be some setting on the bow that makes it hard for them.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> One of the things I've noticed with most of the guys I've shot with is the absolute refusal to put in the time behind the string without completely changing something every other time they shoot. Whether it be the release or something on the bow, they just can not accept that they're mentally (or physically) weak when it comes to letting a good shot develop. It has to be some setting on the bow that makes it hard for them.


Well I hope this isn't your perception of me, because it would be wrong for the most part. Equipment does play a major part in the system. To assume it doesn't would be foolish. Wasn't it you that posted you sold your Victory in favor of the Podium in response to someone that posted the opposite?

That said; I think we all could point to someone that we know that continues looking for the magic bullet but never changes anything about themselves. I can think of a few myself. These people are beyond help and I ain't one of them.


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## Padgett

I gotta agree with cbrunson, I have a buddy right now that I can put into this category. He is always trying to find something to add to his setup or his bow to make the scores that he produces better. He gets irritated when i mention just shoot smooth shots but he keeps asking me what dot size or what color of sight pin or do I add some turns to the tiller or do I change my holding weight or do I change my draw length or do and what arrow should I change to and what point weight and what hinge or thumb trigger will clean up my shooting.. My god the questions never stop and the changes never stop and his shooting is a stinking rollercoaster. I saw him shoot awesome just a month or so ago and was really excited for him and then during the week he was changing things. My god just shoot smoothly executed shots. 

Then when you earn the right to make a small change because you are really smooth then and only then can you possibly see a benefit.


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## Padgett

I was just talking in general EPLC, I don't shoot with you so I can't really know what you are all about.


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> One of the things I've noticed with most of the guys I've shot with is the absolute refusal to put in the time behind the string without completely changing something every other time they shoot. Whether it be the release or something on the bow, they just can not accept that they're mentally (or physically) weak when it comes to letting a good shot develop. It has to be some setting on the bow that makes it hard for them.


Pretty sure you'd observe the same tendency to change things with Jesse or any of the other top pros until they got the bow shooting and feeling the way they wanted... Getting a bow to shoot well often requires a lot of tinkering. Unless you totally disagree with that, why is it OK for pros to experiment and not amateurs?


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## Lazarus

nestly said:


> Why is it OK for pros to experiment and not amateurs?


Mainly because there's less than 10% of all archers that can actually know for certain if a "change" actually made a difference. It's probably more like 3% or less. 

An advanced shooter makes a change with a specific intent in mind. The amateur more often than not is making a change "trying" something that some buddy, writer or "coach" said would help them without any specific idea of what the problem was in the first place.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> Pretty sure you'd observe the same tendency to change things with Jesse or any of the other top pros until they got the bow shooting and feeling the way they wanted... Getting a bow to shoot well often requires a lot of tinkering. Unless you totally disagree with that, why is it OK for pros to experiment and not amateurs?


If any of those guys were struggling with holding low and didn't know how to fix it, I'd suggest spending some time with aiming drills. If it was float related, then it would be different. But of course I'm not going to be coaching those folks. In fact, I'm not trying to coach anyone here. All I am suggesting is that the best first place to fix for a guy with Paul's shooting ability is himself. That time spent without those constant subtle changes would do him more good than anything. But more importantly lets not forget that Paul is not new to any of this, or naïve to the majority of the questions he asks.

Check the date on this one.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=57979


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## bigHUN

thawk said:


> ...I can't say I agree that one persons arrows will hit higher then another's because of now arm dropping, but everyone is entitled to their opinion....


Can you creep tune your bow in the way if you collapse the hold/pulling in the back wall (for whatever reason but fatigue comes to mind first) the arrow will hit high? Not much...only a 1" @50 or let say 2" @50
????
I can understand you never hear about if you have hard limb stops or you holding in a valley, but will cable stops this is possible and I can still mount the limb stops over it 
btw, I am holding about 23-24 lbs (maybe 54% letoff??) before the valley, so no valley and holding on cables


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## nestly

Lazarus said:


> ... An advanced shooter makes a change with a specific intent in mind. The amateur more often than not is making a change "trying" something that some buddy, writer or "coach" said would help them without any specific idea of what the problem was in the first place.


Were all the "advanced shooters" born that way, or were they perhaps something less than "advanced" at one time?
I would suggest that there aren't very many "advanced" shooters that didn't change things up just to see what happened on their way to becoming "advanced".


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Well I hope this isn't your perception of me, because it would be wrong for the most part. Equipment does play a major part in the system. To assume it doesn't would be foolish.


No, because I can hold my hunting bow in the middle too. It doesn't hold low any more than my Podium, or my pro comp before it. There are of course other desirable forgiveness traits to the target bows, but no difference in that regard. I just moved my nock point up on my podium last week to accommodate higher profile vanes, and guess what? It holds the same. If I put it in the middle it goes there. If it drops low and freezes there, I let some pressure off the stops, move it back up and reset. (Try that. It works.)



EPLC said:


> Wasn't it you that posted you sold your Victory in favor of the Podium in response to someone that posted the opposite?


The opposite of what? 

I sold the victory because I prefer the narrower, more rounded grip over the wide flat one. The Victory shot very well. I just noticed some right/left inconsistency with my natural grip. I found I needed more palm pressure to eliminate it. Could I learn to shoot it with that grip? You bet. But lets be clear. By right/left, I'm talking right or left side of the X. I could feel it in the grip at the shot when it went off. Nothing like falling out the bottom from poor follow through, or hanging up below the X.


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## Lazarus

cbrunson said:


> No, because I can hold my hunting bow in the middle too. It doesn't hold low any more than my Podium, or my pro comp before it. There are of course other desirable forgiveness traits to the target bows, but no difference in that regard. I just moved my nock point up on my podium last week to accommodate higher profile vanes, and guess what? It holds the same. If I put it in the middle it goes there.


This is because of a fact that a lot of people, some reading this choose to ignore. A great deal of your "hold" is held in the palm of your release hand and has little to nothing to do with geometry, weighting, or draw length. No, I'll answer questions in advance, I'm *not* saying those things aren't important. 

Why am I responding to your quote Casey? You already know this. :teeth:


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> If any of those guys were struggling with holding low and didn't know how to fix it, I'd suggest spending some time with aiming drills. If it was float related, then it would be different. But of course I'm not going to be coaching those folks. In fact, I'm not trying to coach anyone here. All I am suggesting is that the best first place to fix for a guy with Paul's shooting ability is himself. That time spent without those constant subtle changes would do him more good than anything. But more importantly lets not forget that Paul is not new to any of this, or naïve to the majority of the questions he asks.
> 
> Check the date on this one.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=57979


Nice to see you've taken an interest. Notice that 12 years ago when I posted the original question I didn't get much of a response then either 

To be perfectly honest I haven't really put much thought into this topic since then that I can remember. Since starting this thread I have made some tweaks to my Podium that have helped the hold... including a nock height adjustment. I also added some weight to the riser just under the grip (8 Oz's) and removed some from my back bar which I now run 11 Oz's. backed off from 18 or 20. This weight shift helped a lot. Last night on the final night of my league I shot a post-injury PB. Keeping in mind that I am the biggest problem in the equation, I also discovered some form issues that need attention. Now that the bow is where I feel I'm not fighting it I think I may actually be able to do some work on myself, injury permitting. I will say this, I'm up to 43# and back to my Spirals. My strength isn't where it needs to be but it has improved much. I'm even able to practice some without hurting myself more. Feeling pretty good about that. 

And you are right, I probably know more about this stuff then I sometimes let on. It's the subtleties that I'm interested in at this point and being the IA forum one would think some of this stuff might even be interesting and informative. 



cbrunson said:


> No, because I can hold my hunting bow in the middle too. It doesn't hold low any more than my Podium, or my pro comp before it. There are of course other desirable forgiveness traits to the target bows, but no difference in that regard. I just moved my nock point up on my podium last week to accommodate higher profile vanes, and guess what? It holds the same. If I put it in the middle it goes there. If it drops low and freezes there, I let some pressure off the stops, move it back up and reset. (Try that. It works.)
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite of what?
> 
> I sold the victory because I prefer the narrower, more rounded grip over the wide flat one. The Victory shot very well. I just noticed some right/left inconsistency with my natural grip. I found I needed more palm pressure to eliminate it. Could I learn to shoot it with that grip? You bet. But lets be clear. By right/left, I'm talking right or left side of the X. I could feel it in the grip at the shot when it went off. Nothing like falling out the bottom from poor follow through, or hanging up below the X.


Two points:
1. I'm not "holding low". I thought I corrected that.
2. If memory serves me the opposite I was referring to was that your response was to someone that preferred the Victory over the Hoyt he had. Point being: equipment does make a difference, even if some things are just some subtle difference. You yourself just pointed out the preference for one bow over an other. Watch the Braden response in the video posted above. His response was genuine when he pointed to the new bow. Was he shooting poorly before this bow, of course not. But I'll bet he stays on fire for a while with this one. Regardless of skill level there are changes that can be made from major equipment changes to minor tweaks that can help an archer improve both physically and mentally... The confidence factor alone is worth it's weight in gold...


----------



## EPLC

Btw, I am going to work on my pulling through the shot since there is obviously room for improvement there. This is an entire system that includes mind, body, equipment and form (and bow color). It's not an either/or situation, as one won't work well without the others.


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## nestly

EPLC said:


> ...Since starting this thread I have made some tweaks to my Podium that have helped the hold... including a nock height adjustment...


Can you clarify which direction you went, and where the nock point is currently in relation to the berger button hole? Also just out of curiosity, which grip are you using.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> Nice to see you've taken an interest. Notice that 12 years ago when I posted the original question I didn't get much of a response then either
> 
> To be perfectly honest I haven't really put much thought into this topic since then that I can remember. Since starting this thread I have made some tweaks to my Podium that have helped the hold... including a nock height adjustment. I also added some weight to the riser just under the grip (8 Oz's) and removed some from my back bar which I now run 11 Oz's. backed off from 18 or 20. This weight shift helped a lot. Last night on the final night of my league I shot a post-injury PB. Keeping in mind that I am the biggest problem in the equation, I also discovered some form issues that need attention. Now that the bow is where I feel I'm not fighting it I think I may actually be able to do some work on myself, injury permitting. I will say this, I'm up to 43# and back to my Spirals. My strength isn't where it needs to be but it has improved much. I'm even able to practice some without hurting myself more. Feeling pretty good about that.
> 
> And you are right, I probably know more about this stuff then I sometimes let on. It's the subtleties that I'm interested in at this point and being the IA forum one would think some of this stuff might even be interesting and informative.
> 
> 
> 
> Two points:
> 1. I'm not "holding low". I thought I corrected that. That's kinda where someone took it
> 2. If memory serves me the opposite I was referring to was that your response was to someone that preferred the Victory over the Hoyt he had. Point being: equipment does make a difference, even if some things are just some subtle difference. You yourself just pointed out the preference for one bow over an other. Watch the Braden response in the video posted above. His response was genuine when he pointed to the new bow. Was he shooting poorly before this bow, of course not. But I'll bet he stays on fire for a while with this one. Regardless of skill level there are changes that can be made from major equipment changes to minor tweaks that can help an archer improve both physically and mentally... The confidence factor alone is worth it's weight in gold...


Yes, and I will always contend however unpopular, that failure is 99.9% shooter confidence, and success is 99.9% shooter confidence. The magic pill is already in your possession. You just need to learn how to use it.

The point of the link to your post from 2004 is that this is and always has been a circular exercise with you. (at least on this forum) You've been here since 2002. How many times have you seen posts asking about holding and floating? How many threads asking how you should properly fire a hinge? Not counting the ones you've started?

I know just in the few years I've been more involved here, there has been many. Every one brings up the same articles and videos and theorists that nobody knows beyond their AT personas, with the same arguments. You tell me honestly, have you heard anything new on either of these subjects in the last few years? Has any of that helped you? If it has, lets hear what "helped me" means. Does it hold perfectly every time now? More often? Or is it maybe just a little bit better, or so it seems? Is that because you are getting stronger each passing day with more practice? I ask because I know just practicing every day instead of every other day makes a huge difference for me.

Lots of questions here Paul. My next guess based on what I've seen from you over the years is that in the next few months, we will see another release end question from you. You will dead end on the holding again, and start trying to fix the issues you're having on the front end with a theoretical perfect shot execution. The same theorists will jump all over it with the articles they conjure up, showing how a good release cleans up bad float. It's an endless cycle.

Having said that, you do know what to post here to wake up an otherwise dead forum, which for whatever that's worth is at the very least good entertainment for the people out there reading these debates and not posting. Otherwise, from what I've seen, you've been given just about every possible answer to these questions and you are still looking for something that will get you where you haven't been able to get. To me, that leaves one place for you to look.


----------



## duc

"Notice at about 13:00 in, after winning the gold, Braden points happily at his new bow. Explain this."
Are you serious!!!!! No different to a golfer kissing their club. YOU READ FAR TO MUCH IN THINGS.


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## cbrunson

duc said:


> "Notice at about 13:00 in, after winning the gold, Braden points happily at his new bow. Explain this."
> Are you serious!!!!! No different to a golfer kissing their club. YOU READ FAR TO MUCH IN THINGS.


Interestingly enough, that's a 35" ata bow and he has been shooting a 40" conquest for how long?

I wonder what a guy has to do to get a 35" bow to feel like a 40". Don't answer that. We both know.

I still haven't got an answer to a question I posed earlier about what happens when you lower the sight to shoot the same bow at 80 yards that you fine tuned down to the perfect nock height for holding at 20. Hopefully the group we have here now can at least accept the fact that the riser has to tilt with respect to the line of sight and body position, and the anchor moves down to keep the scope centered in the peep. If perfect nock height with respect to holding characteristics was achievable, I'd suspect it would be drastically effected by a change in the height of the scope that is required to shoot at different distances.


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## montigre

nestly said:


> Were all the "advanced shooters" born that way, or were they perhaps something less than "advanced" at one time?
> I would suggest that there aren't very many "advanced" shooters that didn't change things up just to see what happened on their way to becoming "advanced".


I would hazard to guess that the majority of the advanced and elite shooters have an innate desire or need to know why and how something works. They probably did not start out as novices doing something different because of the advice of someone else, but already knew to look within and began tearing things apart based on sound logic in order to find what may (or may not) have been missing in their sequence at a particular time. 

I am not speaking of the tinkerers here, but those who have a well-found plan in mind before they set off to tear apart their gear and/or themselves and put it back together so as to reach the end goal of that plan. The most important step is developing that sound plan. Without that, any novice or intermediate shooter is going to end up chasing their tail and not making very much forward progress toward their archery goals.....and may find themselves asking the same questions over again 12 years later....


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## montigre

cbrunson said:


> Hopefully the group we have here now can at least accept the fact that the riser has to tilt with respect to the line of sight and body position, and the anchor moves down to keep the scope centered in the peep. If perfect nock height with respect to holding characteristics was achievable, I'd suspect it would be drastically effected by a change in the height of the scope that is required to shoot at different distances.


Ha...surely you jest....I was nearly crucified here when I stated a while back that one's anchor must change in order to shoot from 10 out to 80+ yards even with the peep set to the middle of that distance range.... :zip:


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## cbrunson

montigre said:


> Ha...surely you jest....I was nearly crucified here when I stated a while back that one's anchor must change in order to shoot from 10 out to 80+ yards even with the peep set to the middle of that distance range.... :zip:


If I remember right, the lead instigator and his one man fan club are both gone from here now. The latter by choice I believe.


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> Ha...surely you jest....I was nearly crucified here when I stated a while back that one's anchor must change in order to shoot from 10 out to 80+ yards even with the peep set to the middle of that distance range.... :zip:


And I would have said I don't move my anchor, but thankfully I quit shooting spots before I joined AT. The reason I said I didn't move my anchor was because I never thought about it when shooting Outdoor and Field. I just hauled back and shot. I had to shoot the target so the what hell and shot it. I didn't think and a real problem on AT is people thinking too much. Get so much on the brain and you can see or tell what's really going on.


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## jim p

Thanks for the entertainment.

I think that nocking height will affect the hold. It is a known fact that an untuned bow will shoot arrows into the same hole. So for a simple test just start moving the nocking point up and down the string until you find your best hold. Once you find your best hold then consider moving the rest to see if you can get a good tune. If you can't get a good tune then you have to decide if you had rather have a good hold or a well tuned bow.

Back to regular programming.


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## montigre

jim p said:


> So for a simple test just start moving the nocking point up and down the string until you find your best hold.


Too much work, I'd rather just slap on different angled grips or without that option, adjust the tiller, rest and cams accordingly. :wink:

Personally, if I had to make a choice, I'd prefer a stable hold over a "super tuned" bow that held like crap.... I just tuned my Podium this afternoon for my outdoor arrows, 1/8" nock high left tear through paper and am pleased with the bow's hold--nocking point is about 1/16" above the blade on my rest with the arrow running through the lower 1/3 of the Berger hole; so far, grouping pretty well if I do my part.


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## SonnyThomas

SonnyThomas said:


> And I would have said I don't move my anchor, but thankfully I quit shooting spots before I joined AT. The reason I said I didn't move my anchor was because I never thought about it when shooting Outdoor and Field. I just hauled back and shot. I had to shoot the target so the what hell and shot it. I didn't think and a real problem on AT is people thinking too much. Get so much on the brain and you *can't* see or tell what's really going on.


Edit. Only took 3 tries to post. Gibberish where reply should be, gibberish where post quickly/go advanced. Posted and it didn't show until I tried again and then got message of double post.


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## thawk

bigHUN said:


> Can you creep tune your bow in the way if you collapse the hold/pulling in the back wall (for whatever reason but fatigue comes to mind first) the arrow will hit high? Not much...only a 1" @50 or let say 2" @50
> ????
> I can understand you never hear about if you have hard limb stops or you holding in a valley, but will cable stops this is possible and I can still mount the limb stops over it
> btw, I am holding about 23-24 lbs (maybe 54% letoff??) before the valley, so no valley and holding on cables


I shoot from the valley, always have, probable always will, even thought about trying a C4 with a super soft cam to get a big squishy valley with less let off to make my style of shooting easier. So yes I can creep tune some, or at least creep test, I just want to know what the bow does if I creep.
We probably think of bow arm dropping a little different. In my mind youre giving up on the shot before the release breaks, so I would think a fletched arrow that is correcting slight imperfections in tune, (again slight) would miss by the same amount as a bow tuned to a bare shaft.
I don't know this to be true so I won't argue it, it just seems to be reasonable to me. I also never thought torque tuning would work (although I alway felt a short overdraw was more forgiving for me) till I tried it, mind blown. 

So your another goofball like me that likes to hold a ton of weight? I set my bows at 23# I have had people draw my bow and think its broken.


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> I still haven't got an answer to a question I posed earlier about what happens when you lower the sight to shoot the same bow at 80 yards that you fine tuned down to the perfect nock height for holding at 20. Hopefully the group we have here now can at least accept the fact that the riser has to tilt with respect to the line of sight and body position, and the anchor moves down to keep the scope centered in the peep. If perfect nock height with respect to holding characteristics was achievable, I'd suspect it would be drastically effected by a change in the height of the scope that is required to shoot at different distances.



Sorta hate to disagree on this point where we're mostly in agreement, but moving the front sight and moving the nock point are two different things. Moving the sight does not change the relationship of the bow to the arrow, and it doesn't change the relationship between the bow and the archer either. Assuming a bow could be finely tuned at a specific distance of exactly 20 yards, all that's really needed to shoot 80 yards is to aim higher. Nothing changes when shooting 20 yards or 80 yards except the angle the archer is holding the bow relative to a straight line between themselves an the target. To put it in different terms, there isn't any difference in equipment setup when shooting a "high" target indoor verses a "low target". When shooting "high", the archer simply raises the bow, and in fact depending on speed of the bow, the angle change between shooting 20 yards and 80 yards outdoor could well be considerably less than the angle change between shooting a high target vs a low target indoor. Just to be clear, I fully agree that anchor point must change slightly when moving the front sight up and down in order to keep the eye, peep, sight, and target all aligned, but it's not the same thing as changing the pull angle, which is what happens when the nock height is adjusted.


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## V3505

nestly said:


> Pretty sure you'd observe the same tendency to change things with Jesse or any of the other top pros until they got the bow shooting and feeling the way they wanted... Getting a bow to shoot well often requires a lot of tinkering. Unless you totally disagree with that, why is it OK for pros to experiment and not amateurs?


Without taking anything away from a pro, each person does what they feel is correct and every persons body (physically and psychologically) is different. Not everyone is in tune with their own body to tell when they did something different or wrong. To say "a pro does it" doesn't mean its correct, it means it worked for THEM. 

I'm fairly certain pros don't "experiment" during a tournament.... they knew what adjustment had to be made based upon their experience and what they were seeing or feeling. No one turns a wrench to just to see what happens unless during a practice session. I agree with putting time behind the string, building muscle memory and executing a shot perfectly.


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## nestly

V3505 said:


> Without taking anything away from a pro, each person does what they feel is correct and every persons body (physically and psychologically) is different. Not everyone is in tune with their own body to tell when they did something different or wrong. To say "a pro does it" doesn't mean its correct, it means it worked for THEM.


No disagreement there. Advice from "pros" may or may not work for anyone/everyone, just like advice from non-pros may or may not work for someone else.



V3505 said:


> I'm fairly certain pros don't "experiment" during a tournament.... they knew what adjustment had to be made based upon their experience and what they were seeing or feeling. No one turns a wrench to just to see what happens unless during a practice session. I agree with putting time behind the string, building muscle memory and executing a shot perfectly.


I certainly never meant to suggest that "pros" (or anyone else for that matter) randomly turn knobs and screws during a competition. Everything I've said in this topic has been in the context of trying to find a setup the archer can shoot well and is comfortable with.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> Sorta hate to disagree on this point where we're mostly in agreement, but moving the front sight and moving the nock point are two different things. Moving the sight does not change the relationship of the bow to the arrow, and it doesn't change the relationship between the bow and the archer either. Assuming a bow could be finely tuned at a specific distance of exactly 20 yards, all that's really needed to shoot 80 yards is to aim higher. Nothing changes when shooting 20 yards or 80 yards except the angle the archer is holding the bow relative to a straight line between themselves an the target. To put it in different terms, there isn't any difference in equipment setup when shooting a "high" target indoor verses a "low target". When shooting "high", the archer simply raises the bow, and in fact depending on speed of the bow, the angle change between shooting 20 yards and 80 yards outdoor could well be considerably less than the angle change between shooting a high target vs a low target indoor. Just to be clear, I fully agree that anchor point must change slightly when moving the front sight up and down in order to keep the eye, peep, sight, and target all aligned, but it's not the same thing as changing the pull angle, which is what happens when the nock height is adjusted.


You're right. Its more of a radial shift from the peep. It would still have some affect on the "perfect" hold given the fact that the anchor has to move down and the bow move up with the same line of sight.

After shooting a couple practice games last night, I decided to experiment with tiller again. (since I just recently changed my nock height for vane clearance) I've done it before, and even started a thread or two here on the subject in the past. But this time I was focused completely on looking for changes in perceived hold, rather than what it does to the arrow at the shot. I started at the top, with 1/8 turn. Nothing. 1/4 turn- nothing. 1/2- nothing. I went two full turns because that's all that was left since I was two turns out to start with. Then I went back the other way to see if it changed with more pull on the bottom limb. The only thing I noticed, which is what I suspect people are seeing, is that by raising the tiller to pull more on the top and keeping the anchor fixed tight to your face, it raises the scope in the peep. It has the opposite affect tightening the bottom. Essentially doing the same thing you would be doing by raising and lowering your peep without changing the tune of your bow. I would naturally assume that if you chose to move the nock point to change tiller rather than using limb tension, that you would also move the peep to keep that relationship the same, which would then cancel out that effect, leaving only grip angle as the desired characteristic change. I'd be interested to see one of your video models showing the change of angle at the grip with a 1/4" raised nock point on a 40" bow at say a 28" draw length, to see exactly how much it changes. Even then, you accomplish the same thing by moving the peep, which is much simpler. We already agree that the hand anchor should not be firm fixed.


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> I'd be interested to see one of your video models showing the change of angle at the grip with a 1/4" raised nock point on a 40" bow at say a 28" draw length, to see exactly how much it changes. Even then, you accomplish the same thing by moving the peep, which is much simpler. We already agree that the hand anchor should not be firm fixed.


I'm not following on the issue of peep height, but with regard to the grip/riser angle change, assuming a 28" draw, (26.25 inches from the throat of the grip to the nock point at full draw), moving the nock height 1/4 inch above or below the center of the berger hole on a Podium should cause grip angle change of about 3/10th of a degree. (.305 is the actual calculated value)


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## thawk

Not sure I follow the tiller changing the peep and scope picture??
Then saying that moving the nocking point would cancel the effect if you moved the peep to match???
How can one way cancel the effect? Or better yet how can there be a effect on the peep at all when it will also move with tiller??


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> I'm not following on the issue of peep height, but with regard to the grip/riser angle change, assuming a 28" draw, (26.25 inches from the throat of the grip to the nock point at full draw), moving the nock height 1/4 inch above or below the center of the berger hole on a Podium should cause grip angle change of about 3/10th of a degree. (.305 is the actual calculated value)


If you move the nock point up you would move the peep to match right? By adjusting tiller and leaving the peep/nock point alone, it tilts the riser forward or back. The scope is on an extension that pivots at the riser. If you lean the riser back, the scope moves up, effectively raising it in the peep. Walla! You fixed a sagging pin........or you just move the peep down a hair and do the same thing. That is the only thing I could see of substance happening, and that is only with a fixed anchor. If you line up correctly and float your anchor, you wouldn't really notice it.


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## nestly

I agree with the first sentence, not so much with the rest. Whether you physically move the nock point, or change the tiller, it's likely going to affect the arrow flight/tune, so yeah, you may be able to "effectively" raise the front sight relative to the peep/target that way, but now that arrow is going to be more nock high than it was previously, meaning it's going to hit lower than it had previously. So you either have to move the sight down, or raise the arrow rest to make the POI and the front sight coincide. So for my part, I'm not really seeing a significant change in the peep height, the peep to nock distance would be pretty constant in all the scenarios.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> I agree with the first sentence, not so much with the rest. Whether you physically move the nock point, or change the tiller, it's likely going to affect the arrow flight/tune, so yeah, you may be able to "effectively" raise the front sight relative to the peep/target that way, but now that arrow is going to be more nock high than it was previously, meaning it's going to hit lower than it had previously. So you either have to move the sight down, or raise the arrow rest to make the POI and the front sight coincide. So for my part, I'm not really seeing a significant change in the peep height, the peep to nock distance would be pretty constant in all the scenarios.


No you're not following. Which is fine. I'm probably not explaining well enough. 

The important part of the conversation has left the open forum anyway, as it usually does, so I'll leave that as it is.


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> No you're not following. Which is fine. I'm probably not explaining well enough.
> 
> The important part of the conversation has left the open forum anyway, as it usually does, so I'll leave that as it is.


I'd rather understand the point you're trying to make, than not, so I'm certainly willing to continue if you are.

Purely by chance, long time pro and Hoyt rep Tony Tazza happened to be in the area and he shot both of the Indoor league shoots that were hosted at our club. Nock point height and it's affect on hold, was one of the subjects that me and another person queried him about. His advice on the subject was to raise the nock point if there is a tendency to "bob" (vertical) on the target, but it's done without any stabilizers, just the bow and a sight. Weighting the bow to address other issues/preference is done after being comfortable with the nock point height. I don't have any recollection of him mentioning nock point height as a possible remedy for freezing low, and I haven't ever known it to have that affect either.


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## bigHUN

I am a little reserved playing with limb screws, maybe because with my bow is not doing much, not sure what is a situation with heavy duty "hunter" made limbs.
To explain, me speculating again from simplified mechanical viewpoint and again not sure how this is transparent to your practice:
The limb material is not only "stiff" but also resonates and have a speed to recover. Stiff meaning it was safety tested at least 400 lbs, and when you twang it how fast will recover. Different limb materials have different specs also most likely with a not high-end rigs the pair of limbs are not matching.
Now, we have attached 2 cams we trying to keep in reasonable timing.
If you loosen the upper limb (in relation to lower limb) you getting not only different preload on limbs but they will recover different timing directly effecting different timing on cams, the end result with nock travel is not only - not linear, but also along the path a different speed on some sections....a non linear and erratic motion will transfer to the nock and there it goes south.
So, I am thinking about this tiler adjustments as further complicating already complicated mechanics. Either you get good results by coincidence or sink further deeper.
Now again, all depend where you were before, maybe the entire mechanism was way off for many other reasons and now just some miracle happened and finally you feel satisfied?


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## cbrunson

What I was looking specifically for was change in holding or floating by changing tiller. As I said before, I'd just moved my nock point up for vane clearance to run a higher profile vane. Nothing changed as far as hold. I only noticed slight changes in the sight picture like higher tension on the top limb slightly raised the scope in the peep. I use a kisser so it was easy to see. It went down going the other way. Pretty simple experiment just to see what happens. Nothing of any value. 

Not sure I care what my float looks like without stabs since I don't shoot without them, and I don't run a set distribution formula. I do the majority of work on holding characteristics by feel with my stabilizers and controlling bow arm, grip, and release hand tension. I know how they all come together for me to hold very very well. I leave my bow tuning alone, unless the arrows are showing problems. 

Imagine the conversation if you took the top fifteen pro shooters and put them all in a room together and said, "Okay everyone, decide what the perfect way to set up a bow is. All together and have one specific detailed report before any of you can leave."

You're going to hear a lot of different things from different people. Maybe there is a common theme on some topics. If it were unanimous, it would just be well known and a normal part of setting up every bow.


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## cbrunson

bigHUN said:


> I am a little reserved playing with limb screws, maybe because with my bow is not doing much, not sure what is a situation with heavy duty "hunter" made limbs.
> To explain, me speculating again from simplified mechanical viewpoint and again not sure how this is transparent to your practice:
> The limb material is not only "stiff" but also resonates and have a speed to recover. Stiff meaning it was safety tested at least 400 lbs, and when you twang it how fast will recover. Different limb materials have different specs also most likely with a not high-end rigs the pair of limbs are not matching.
> Now, we have attached 2 cams we trying to keep in reasonable timing.
> If you loosen the upper limb (in relation to lower limb) you getting not only different preload on limbs but they will recover different timing directly effecting different timing on cams, the end result with nock travel is not only - not linear, but also along the path a different speed on some sections....a non linear and erratic motion will transfer to the nock and there it goes south.
> So, I am thinking about this tiler adjustments as further complicating already complicated mechanics. Either you get good results by coincidence or sink further deeper.
> Now again, all depend where you were before, maybe the entire mechanism was way off for many other reasons and now just some miracle happened and finally you feel satisfied?


Nobody is talking extremes enough to have that much affect. It does change nock travel, but only with respect to the angle of the riser. It doesn't become erratic. You would make sure cam synch was correct after the change.

I played with it a lot with my Pro comp. Mostly for counteracting a palming habit I was fighting. I found that 3/4 turn out on the bottom limb reduced the amount of POI change on a palmed shot from about a 1-1/4", to 1/2". I've since discovered that beating the habit by learning to hold it in the middle, worked even better. Crazy thinking I know. Tuning the bow to minimize the affect of your poor performance has its limits. There are a few worth doing, like creep tuning. But most of them are better handled in the long run by working on what it is you are doing.


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> Not sure I care what my float looks like without stabs since I don't shoot without them


That's interesting, because I actually do shoot my podium without any stabilizers occasionally. I was running the league shoot and there weren't many shooters on that particular line/time so I pulled off the bars and took the scope lens out and shot bowhunter class using only the 31mm housing. I was pretty surprised that the bow didn't feel or aim that much different, it was just a bunch lighter.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> That's interesting, because I actually do shoot my podium without any stabilizers occasionally. I was running the league shoot and there weren't many shooters on that particular line/time so I pulled off the bars and took the scope lens out and shot bowhunter class using only the 31mm housing. I was pretty surprised that the bow didn't feel or aim that much different, it was just a bunch lighter.


Never tried it. I do know that my Nitrum Turbo doesn't go all over the place either with just a 10" B-stinger. I just have to be much better on the "me" part to get it to hold still.


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## bigHUN

My bow is pretty much ready for the season, I will switch to smaller shafts somewhere in April and my training begins. My busiest month will be mid July to mid August, and you know what pi****s me the most? I will most likely wear out my string about just right there...:\


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## bow9

Eplc. I am currently having the same issue and imo I think it is my draw length is still a tad long. Now the reason I say this is because I have been working really hard this year on my shooting and I was always told I was a 29" draw. Since reading nuts and bolts about a hundred times and also watching every bow junky video and reading tons of dudleys articles I realized I'm not 29". So I started making changes and having the ol lady take pictures and using mirrors when no one was around... i had realized I was leaning way back which was also backed up by the fact I couldn't get a thumb trigger or my HBx to break very easily or smooth. So I shortened it up.( yes I know rio leans back but I'm not rio😉) so now my 29" bow is all twisted up to 28.375 and I just shot my highest field score of my life. And I believe I'm still a touch too long. So I now have 28.5" cams and am awaiting new cables and string to make the swap. However I agree with what you are saying cause when my draw was way long I would dip and dip a dip exactly like you described no matter how much I worked on my bow arm. The shorter I went the better it got. Now it is minimal and I think it will be even that much better when I get my swap done. 
So I believe it's draw length related to a point... I know there will always be some movement in my pin and I'm all good with that but I think the name of the game is get the float as tight as possible


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## EPLC

Many things can impact holding and draw length is one of the more critical factors. What we are actually dealing with is a system made up of many components. Poundage, draw length, sight picture, bow balance and many other factors come into play. Note that I mentioned sight picture. I feel this is one of the more critical factors in hold. I tried out a new scope/lens/fiber combo last evening and could not believe the difference in my hold.


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## duc

Never heard so much rubbish in my life. So you went from all over the target like a drunk cockroach to an unbelievable steady hold because of a sight change?


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## EPLC

duc said:


> Never heard so much rubbish in my life. So you went from all over the target like a drunk cockroach to an unbelievable steady hold because of a sight change?


Hmmm... not even sure how to address such a troll baiting response.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Hmmm... not even sure how to address such a troll baiting response.


time 2.


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## nestly

EPLC said:


> Hmmm... not even sure how to address such a troll baiting response.


X3

No need to address it, everyone that's spent a substantial amount of time aiming at target knows that even subtle changes can make you more or less comfortable while aiming.


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## duc

Not trolling. Saying what I see. Some of the stuff I see and hear here borders on fantasy. Understand how your head works, understand placebo, understand confirmation bias with gear, understand training correctly to loose bad habits and most of your problems won't exist. Some people seem to just make things hard for themselves by overthinking. 
I can't overemphasis this enough. NOTHING works better then a GOOD coach AND HARD WORK. Learn to like the boring aspects of rote learning.


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## jmann28

The position of your dloop absolutely has an effect on your hold. Jesse even mentions in a video he starts in the middle and plays around in order to figure out where it feels best. On my podiums, I see a stronger hold in the x with it very high in the berger hole.


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## nestly

duc said:


> Not trolling. Saying what I see. Some of the stuff I see and hear here borders on fantasy. Understand how your head works, understand placebo, understand confirmation bias with gear, understand training correctly to loose bad habits and most of your problems won't exist. Some people seem to just make things hard for themselves by overthinking.
> I can't overemphasis this enough. NOTHING works better then a GOOD coach AND HARD WORK. Learn to like the boring aspects of rote learning.


Well, one of the things you'd probably learn from a GOOD coach is to be comfortable with your sight picture. The specific preferences of each archer are something that can only be learned by experimenting (coach or no coach).
Yes, placebo effect is real, and sometimes "change" has more short term benefits than long term... but there's also only one way to find out whether something is going to be a long term benefit or not.


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## EPLC

With regard to "good" coaching: One has to assume there are 'Good" coaches available. The fact is that in many areas, such as here, there just isn't anyone coaching at a level that we are talking about in this forum. Sad, but this is just the way it is. Compounding this problem is that there are a lot of "certified coaches" out there, thanks to the ease of obtaining a certification, that don't know squat (read $$=Cert). These "coaches" are not at a level of understanding beyond helping kids or new comers and some can't even do that. Once you have elevated your game beyond a certain point, coaching that can actually help with the little subtitles is limited, very limited.

And Btw, my sight picture has improved my hold. Last evening I used the same scope setup on another bow and got the same results, an improved hold. Will it be lasting, who knows, but for now things have improved.


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## Padgett

Archery is weird, I have coached a variety of sports and during the summer we have camps and open gyms and weight training and then in the actual season we will have at least 16 days of practice for 2 hours per day where we do drills and game simulation and team and individual things. Tens of thousands of kids do this all the time but with archery it is virtually absent. 

In archery you might sit in a one day seminar or go somewhere and spend a afternoon with a coach but for the most part you coach yourself. I see this with my buddies, I talk to them on the phone or at a tournament but it is just talking. They even read my archery articles but when you read stuff you simply read what you want to hear from the information. In the end they have heard the good stuff but they have the right as a individual to pick and choose what they accept.

Now when you are a middle linebacker on my football team and I look you in the eye for the 10th day in a row and lite your butt up because you aren't doing what I asked you to do now that is coaching. As a player when someone has taken the time to spend 50 days per year for 2 hours a session to build up your knowledge and push you to your maximum potential then you have been coached. 

What we do in archery is only scratching the surface, in all reality we present material with no pressure to willing people and they are allowed to decide for themselves to listen or not. The Middle Linebacker on my team has no choice, he is going to listen or I am going to replace him with somebody that does listen and will do the job that I want done.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> With regard to "good" coaching: One has to assume there are 'Good" coaches available. The fact is that in many areas, such as here, there just isn't anyone coaching at a level that we are talking about in this forum. Sad, but this is just the way it is. Compounding this problem is that there are a lot of "certified coaches" out there, thanks to the ease of obtaining a certification, that don't know squat (read $$=Cert). These "coaches" are not at a level of understanding beyond helping kids or new comers and some can't even do that. Once you have elevated your game beyond a certain point, coaching that can actually help with the little subtitles is limited, very limited.
> 
> And Btw, my sight picture has improved my hold. Last evening I used the same scope setup on another bow and got the same results, an improved hold. Will it be lasting, who knows, but for now things have improved.


I find that substantially more believable than YOU actually noticing a difference with moving your nock point up a 1/4".

I am more comfortable with a large dot in my scope that nearly fills the yellow, but when I can hold a 1/16" dot still, I am more accurate. With more perceivable movement, I have a tendency to over-correct, and my bad shots are worse. The larger dot doesn't elicit that natural response. 

I am curious to know what this "level of shooting" is, that negates the benefit of a qualified coach who was required to know certain information to obtain a certification. It seems to me the status quo has become anyone capable of watching Youtube videos or copying and pasting articles other people have written over the years are credible experts, so why wouldn't someone that at the very least is associated with a professional organization be a plausible source?


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## EPLC

I can't speak to the NAA process as I have no clue what they are doing but the NFAA process of certification is a joke. Pay money, go to a class and you're a coach. This process is not designed to coach the intermediate to advanced archer. You should consider yourself very fortunate to be surrounded by the level of skilled archers in your area.


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## Padgett

The best two coaches in Marshfield Mo history for football never played the game, they were loved by their players and they had multiple undefeated seasons. We have had multiple coaches in every level who come in with stellar resumes and they suck time and time again. Those two guys could put kids in the appropriate spot and find a way to get the most out of the kid and they treated each kid appropriately. 

Right now if you live in my area you can call my wife and ask her which attorneys to hire and which ones to avoid, just because they passed the bar exam and have a license to practice doesn't mean that they should. She can even tell you how each and every judge is going to rule on your case before it even goes before him or her because people are predictable in good and bad ways. 

Archery is no different, you can get lucky and find that guy that might have a way of presenting the same old information to you in a way that opens the doors.


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## RCR_III

Padgett said:


> The best two coaches in Marshfield Mo history for football never played the game, they were loved by their players and they had multiple undefeated seasons. We have had multiple coaches in every level who come in with stellar resumes and they suck time and time again. Those two guys could put kids in the appropriate spot and find a way to get the most out of the kid and they treated each kid appropriately.
> 
> Right now if you live in my area you can call my wife and ask her which attorneys to hire and which ones to avoid, just because they passed the bar exam and have a license to practice doesn't mean that they should. She can even tell you how each and every judge is going to rule on your case before it even goes before him or her because people are predictable in good and bad ways.
> 
> Archery is no different, you can get lucky and find that guy that might have a way of presenting the same old information to you in a way that opens the doors.


Only if the person is receptive though. Some people aren't receptive to coaching at all. Some people are only receptive to certain coaches. Certain people are only talkers. Just like in anything with life. You just have to be able to decipher which person/group that will be receptive to you. And not bang your head against the wall with the people/groups who aren't. Pick your market ;-)


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I can't speak to the NAA process as I have no clue what they are doing but the NFAA process of certification is a joke. Pay money, go to a class and you're a coach. This process is not designed to coach the intermediate to advanced archer. You should consider yourself very fortunate to be surrounded by the level of skilled archers in your area.


And even a twenty something year old kid with a level 3 can tell you that you are struggling with the basics while you are looking for answers you wont benefit from until you get those basics under control. It's all relative I suppose. Perhaps you could define what intermediate to advanced is.


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## Rick!

*I'll see your Level 3 and raise you 2 level! *



cbrunson said:


> And even a twenty something year old kid with a level 3 can tell you that you are struggling with the basics while you are looking for answers you wont benefit from until you get those basics under control. It's all relative I suppose. *Perhaps you could define what intermediate to advanced is*.


BTDT - it is ironic that a sport that is defined by classes and skill levels has participants that reject either when it comes to self assessment...  

Guess I'm lucky to have access to a Level 5 coach. Best money I spent on archery all year.

Like one poster's sig states; "If you don't like the way you shoot, change the way you practice."


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## dmacey

Rick! said:


> BTDT - it is ironic that a sport that is defined by classes and skill levels has participants that reject either when it comes to self assessment...
> 
> Guess I'm lucky to have access to a Level 5 coach. Best money I spent on archery all year.
> 
> Like one poster's sig states; "If you don't like the way you shoot, change the way you practice."


Woohoo! the thread is on again! Popcorn popping right now... 

DM


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## cbrunson

Rick! said:


> BTDT - it is ironic that a sport that is defined by classes and skill levels has participants that reject either when it comes to self assessment...
> 
> Guess I'm lucky to have access to a Level 5 coach. Best money I spent on archery all year.
> 
> Like one poster's sig states; "If you don't like the way you shoot, change the way you practice."


I don't believe the actual sport does. That concept seems mostly confined to the non-competitive theorist types, or those that have struggled for a long time and insist that the missing link to their success must be some finite adjustment to their equipment that continues to elude them.

Congrats on your improvements and finding a good coach!


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## cbrunson

dmacey said:


> Woohoo! the thread is on again! Popcorn popping right now...
> 
> DM


Not from me this time. I only reference that for those who understand. If you align your attributes with your goals and measure yourself against those, you will always meet your own expectations. Not until you look up, will you ever attain the satisfaction of achievement.


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## thawk

I have seen some level one and two "coaches" that are lost once they step away from the kids beginner recurve class.

This year we had a few top level shooters in our indoor league, (something I have never had in 20 years) and one of them has the ability to spot problems with shooters much better then the others, all shoot great but Sean can coach too, but has no interest in being a coach, I wish I had picked his brain much more before he moved.


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## redman

Great info


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