# Top 5 ILF Limbs?



## bduplin (Jun 5, 2008)

If money was no object...what ILF limbs would you buy? List your top 5 Limbs.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Hoyt 900s
Sky Carbons
WINEX
PSE EXpressions
Hoyt MI


----------



## XCalibre (Aug 31, 2006)

Hoyt 990TX (i ordered a pair yesterday, actually)
W&W N-Apecs
Border HEX-V
W&W Inno and Samick Extreme BF (tie)


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I found the WINEX a bit smoother than the INNOS. The samicks I have are far heavier than their marked weight.


----------



## zal (May 1, 2007)

Samick Masters
Sky Carbons / C+
W&W Synerzy (that will stay in one piece)
Border Hex IV Woodcore
Apecs Prime

Currently shooting winex and hating every second, even though they perform brilliantly. Always preferred the feel of woodcore limbs.


----------



## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

This is an interesting discussion 

1. Sky Conquest
.
.
.
.
.
2. Samick Masters
3. PSE Centra Carbon (made by Earl Hoyt way back in 1994 or so)
4. PSE Xpression
5. WinEx

The Hoyt 900's aren't even close and the 990's are way too new to have decent statistical info about what type of scores they shoot.

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

c3hammer said:


> This is an interesting discussion
> 
> 1. Sky Conquest
> .
> ...


I own all of the limbs I rated. The centras are exactly the same as Sky Jacks. I like the hoyt 900s. They are smoother than the G3 and much faster than the MI. The Skys are still the standard.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

It's intriguing to see the interest in Sky limbs after all these years. Was there a secret or difference in their construction and materials or is it purely quality of manufacturing? How long were they made?


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

1. borders HEX5-H...2. winex...3.apecs prime(although i haven't tried it yet)...4.samick extremes...5. winacts or pse pro-elites........i have to give honorable mention to the hoyt vector and M1 which to me are the most stable hoyt limbs i tried...if they were only a bit faster they would have bumped off the samick which although great was hard to pull thru the clicker...


----------



## Xander (Dec 4, 2003)

1. Samick Masters
2. W&W N-Apecs
3. W&W Winex
4. Border evolution ML2 (best looking though, smooth matt black/gray coating)
5. Hoyt G3


----------



## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

1.Border Hex 5
2.Border Hex 5
3.Border Hex 5
4.APECS
5.Hoyt 990TX
6.Winex
7.PSE Expressions


----------



## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

With no special preference:

Winex (actually, I got ones)
Samick Extreme BF
Inno
900cx
Apecs(both)

(this is a list of what I want to have or test not what I think is better or not)


----------



## marzo2 (Sep 20, 2004)

If money was no object, it means I could make limbs witch are no more available ?

So here is my top list:

1- Yamaha Eola Ceramic carbon (yeah I would make them ILF)
2- Samick Extreme BF
3- Hoyt Foam Carbon + (1990 era)
4- Samick Master
5- Hoyt G3


----------



## bduplin (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting to see the Samick Masters, a carbon/wood limb, in the top 5. How would you compare the feel and performance of a wood core to a foam? Is it just nostalgia or science? Also, what's the difference between the Samick Extreme BF Carbons and the Samick Extreme Carbon/Foam Limbs?


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

bduplin said:


> Interesting to see the Samick Masters, a carbon/wood limb, in the top 5. How would you compare the feel and performance of a wood core to a foam? Is it just nostalgia or science? Also, what's the difference between the Samick Extreme BF Carbons and the Samick Extreme Carbon/Foam Limbs?


Extremes = Carbon/Foam
Extreme BF = Carbon/Foam/Wood
Masters = Carbon/Wood

The Extreme BF was made to have the benefits of both carbon/foam and of carbon/wood limbs.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

bduplin said:


> Interesting to see the Samick Masters, a carbon/wood limb, in the top 5. How would you compare the feel and performance of a wood core to a foam? Is it just nostalgia or science? Also, what's the difference between the Samick Extreme BF Carbons and the Samick Extreme Carbon/Foam Limbs?


Foam is touted as being more stable than wood. However, the main reason for going to foam was cost-you have to go through lots of veneers of hard rock maple to get the really good stuff. The quality of foam is more consistent


----------



## bduplin (Jun 5, 2008)

Sooo....are you saying, it's easier to make good limbs with foam than maple? But, how do they compare in performance ie. smoothness thru the clicker, vibration, etc.


----------



## Jimmy Sweden (Oct 24, 2005)

apecs prime, 
Hoyt FX limbs (a good pair)
900 cx or winex to close of a call, 
G3 
winact

bang for the buck no doubt SF limbs.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

bduplin said:


> Sooo....are you saying, it's easier to make good limbs with foam than maple? But, how do they compare in performance ie. smoothness thru the clicker, vibration, etc.


best wood carbon limbs hard to beat.


----------



## archer982 (Jun 6, 2007)

There would only be two on my list:

Samick Masters and Extremes


----------



## GONZO (Sep 9, 2003)

I am very new to the recurve world , so I am wondering what do you guys think ? what are the better limbs ( what would you prefer) wood/carbon or carbon/foam ? I don't care about looks or nostalgia , i am concerned about performance indoor and outdoor . I would love to hear your opinions


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

archer982 said:


> There would only be two on my list:
> 
> Samick Masters and Extremes


IS that due to extensively testing them against all the other stuff or merely because those are the only two you are familiar with?


----------



## archer982 (Jun 6, 2007)

Jim C said:


> IS that due to extensively testing them against all the other stuff or merely because those are the only two you are familiar with?


The second.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

JimC, that is the exact reason why I didn't post a top 5 list. I have personally only shot 2 modern limbs - Extreme BF's and G3's so I can't possibly say what the top 5 best limbs are. I have an opinion but little more than that.

I can share how I chose which limbs to buy. I was out of the sport for a very long time and coming back in I didn't have a clue what was good. Rather than knocking myself out on researching products myself, I decided I would rely on the research of elite athletes and I choose all of my equipment based on statistics of Beijing results. The same way you would choose a fantasy football player. 

I utilized a spreadsheet from this forum that had most of the gear, and I did some additional research as well. I chose my limbs, riser, site, plunger, stabilizers, tab and many other things based on what people used in the 08 games. Obviously sponsorship and other factors influenced people's choice of equipment, but I don't believe they would have shot any equipment that would have even the slightest negative impact on their performance. 

So, from what I found I believe Samick limbs were used to win 14 of 24 medals, which was a clear majority over any other. Next was Win & Win (mostly Inno with some WinEx), followed by Hoyt.

What was very telling to me is that a few athletes shot Hoyt risers with Samick or W&W limbs. That was a real attention getter.

So I decided I would get Samick limbs. Extreme BF's, Masters and Extremes were all present and popular. I chose the BF's since they are the middle ground between the 2 and are touted as Samick's current top limb - if nothing else, in price. They have Maple wood (not bamboo as some believe) as well as foam with Carbon. They are extremely thin and very fast. I've been very pleased with my choice, and have shot 3 sets of BF's as I have increased poundage.

But really, would I notice a difference in performance between these and the other excellent top end limbs out? I doubt it. 

The limbs that draw my attention are Borders and the Earl Hoyt Sky limbs that I keep hearing about.

The limited production of Border limbs and the fanaticism and pride of Sid at Border leads me to believe they may be produced with better quality control than any limb made today. And the fact that W&W seems to copy his designs is very telling. I would love to give them a shot sometime, and I like supporting small companies like Border who are truly passionate about what they do and love to help their customers. Companies like that are a dying breed.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

2222 said:


> JimC, that is the exact reason why I didn't post a top 5 list. I have personally only shot 2 modern limbs - Extreme BF's and G3's so I can't possibly say what the top 5 best limbs are. I have an opinion but little more than that.
> 
> I can share how I chose which limbs to buy. I was out of the sport for a very long time and coming back in I didn't have a clue what was good. Rather than knocking myself out on researching products myself, I decided I would rely on the research of elite athletes and I choose all of my equipment based on statistics of Beijing results. The same way you would choose a fantasy football player.
> 
> ...



well I listed only those I have shot or owned which include

WINEX

INNO

G3

900

Samick Extremes

MI

Vector

SKY Carbon Conquest and PSE CENTRA (Same thing)


Merlin marked BOrders

PSE XPressions


PSE/WINACT Carbon Wood


AGulla Ultra Carbon Wood


Martin Aurora Carbin


Hoyt Syntactic=Carbon Plus

Hoyt FX

Samick Athlete


all are good


FX vibrate alot


Martins are slow and are not consistent in terms of length-no vibration 

Vectors and MI are very nice performing limbs

I like the 900 best of all the hoyts


I have some conquest limbs with over 150K shots through them and they still crank the same speed as some new ones (I Have 6 sets of 38 Medium Conquests)


Samick Agullas were probably the fastest wood carbon limbs I own


Winacts are great all round limbs


Xpressiona and WINEX are great limbs too-WINEX have come down some in price-I actually prefer them to the inno


Hoyt limbs run LIGHT, SAMICK limbs-at least the pair I have-run Heavy. SKys were always on the heavy side.


I did some speed tests on 42L Medium limbs a while back-you might find it here since I have lots of limbs in that size


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Pop over to my thread if you have opinions on moderately priced limbs. Maybe there are some coaches out there that have shot their student's bows or have moderately priced practice limbs. Or maybe you know the hidden gems. $350 is my stated threshold.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

Holy Smokes JimC That's a load of limbs!


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

2222 said:


> Holy Smokes JimC That's a load of limbs!


Yeah my charitable cause is mainly making sure all the kids I coach shoot top of the line stuff when they are able to use it:wink:


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Without expressing a specifica personal opinion or ranking , (considered) top limbs sold in Italy at present are:

- Inno Carbon
- Samick Extreme BF
- Winex
- Hoyt 990T
- N-Apecs

In our National team in Poland:
- Apecs Prime
Tonetta, Tonelli
- Samick BF
Nespoli, Melotto
- Hoyt 990T
Valeeva, Lionetti
-Winex
Frangilli


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

it's a pity that not many (if any at all) elite archers are familar with the performance of border limbs as they do not sponsor nor have any plans to sponsor any archer as far as their limbs are concerned....based on my communications with sid ball sr. they would rather spend their funds on research and development which is an indication of their dedication and commitment to their product.......IMHO they are the premier limb manufacturer at present....


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks for the comment on Border. I have been looking into Border limbs for my outdoor bow and was concerned that it did not pop up more in the lists above.


----------



## Borja1300 (Oct 12, 2007)

Lionel Torres silver medalist at World Championship 2001, when came to Spain for a meeting with Ilario di Buo, he was using border limbs and sayd are one of the finest limbs he ever had been using.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Border was sponsoring Michele by the way of Best Italy from 1995 to 1998. Then, we disagreed about some solution they were going to use on new limbs at that time, and they decided to stop sponsoring Michele and in any case the new owner of the company decided it was better for them NOT to give sponsorship limbs anymore to any top level archer. All those that got sponsored limbs from Border after that time were getting them from local shops /importer or distributors, never directly from Border, a far as I know.
So, it is nowdays very difficult to get any real info about performancies of Border limbs, as the base of those using them is limited to mainly UK archers of medium/local level, and frankly speaking, their opinion has no weight at all in the market. So, Border limbs are no more imported in Italy since many years, nor theu y are in amany other countries, but they are happy like this, as in any case they only have a very limited production capacity. 
There are other excellent limbs manufacturers in the world in addition to Border (that in any case I consider among them), like N-Products , Green Horn and surely Sky, but as of the practical situation in terms of use of these limbs by top level archers, added to their limeted production, they will never be able to be consider but a marginal presence in the archery world.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have not heard of N-Products. Are they a manufacturer used by other companies or do they sell their own? I did not come up with anything when I Googled.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There is no one "best" limb, only the best limb for a particular archer, for a particular purpose.

For outdoor fita recurve work, *Samick Masters *are the best I've ever shot. But again, that's just for me (32.5" draw) and just for outdoor fita recurve.

I've shot a LOT of good limbs by the way. Almost every set of ILF limbs will out-shoot their owner 

John.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

well said John.....


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I've shot a LOT of good limbs by the way. Almost every set of ILF limbs will out-shoot their owner
> 
> John.


Undoubtedly true, but since humans are not machines, the FD curve and the limb efficiency are factors we all would like to know about but that is data the manufacturers don't all provide, though they certainly, I should think, have that data.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I have not heard of N-Products. Are they a manufacturer used by other companies or do they sell their own? I did not come up with anything when I Googled.


http://www.n-products.com


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> There is no one "best" limb, only the best limb for a particular archer, for a particular purpose.
> 
> I've shot a LOT of good limbs by the way. Almost every set of ILF limbs will out-shoot their owner


Couldn't agree more...and as Warbow mentioned...most of us are not machines and a limb that is more forgiving of our imperfections will most likely reduce the effects of human error.

Ray


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

I checked out Green Horn after Vittorio mentioned them and these ellipse limbs look pretty cool. They look similar to Border hex's.









http://www.greenhorn.be/ehome/ehome.html


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> There is no one "best" limb, only the best limb for a particular archer, for a particular purpose.
> ...
> I've shot a LOT of good limbs by the way. Almost every set of ILF limbs will out-shoot their owner
> 
> John.


If there is no best limb, are their worst limbs? Surely some limbs are generally better than others? If not, why do you have the limbs that you do on your bow?

Perhaps their should be a thread for worst limbs if you think best limbs is too nebulous?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> If there is no best limb, are their worst limbs? Surely some limbs are generally better than others? If not, why do you have the limbs that you do on your bow?
> 
> Perhaps their should be a thread for worst limbs if you think best limbs is too nebulous?



I don't think that is what he's saying. 

If you look at his quote...he says - "There is no *one* "best" limb"...which to me means there can be better limbs and there can be worse limbs...but there is no *one* best limb for everyone.

Ray


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I don't think that is what he's saying.
> 
> If you look at his quote...he says - "There is no *one* "best" limb"...which to me means there can be better limbs and there can be worse limbs...but there is no *one* best limb for everyone.
> 
> Ray


I understand what he is saying. It is the common retort to any and all "Best?" threads in archery. I posited that even if there can be no one best perhaps the contrary is not true and there can be a worst limb.

But, even as John notes that what is "best" is contingent, he is also prematurely cutting off the conversation. Clearly he chooses his limbs for a reason. Why they are best for him may parallel why they might also be best for some other person with similar criteria. Granted, "best" might be because they are free to him, or some other factor others are not likely to have, but I think John could provide us with some insight of what makes one limb more valuable to him over others. I don't think John is so unique a situation that his reasoning wouldn't have some value to others.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

I thought his input was valuable. That he's shot a lot of great limbs, for him outdoors he prefers Samick Masters and that his criteria for great limbs may differ from others. For someone with a 28" draw stacking isn't a concern with most limbs, but for someone with 32.5" draw like him, it's very important since he's drawing at least 4.5" beyond where the limb is rated at. So his limb choice could suit someone with a long draw very well.

I like reminders that our equipment is not the limiting factor. 

People who can't or don't want to spend $600 limbs can still have 100% confidence in their gear.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But, even as John notes that what is "best" is contingent, he is also prematurely cutting off the conversation. Clearly he chooses his limbs for a reason. Why they are best for him may parallel why they might also be best for some other person with similar criteria. Granted, "best" might be because they are free to him, or some other factor others are not likely to have, but I think John could provide us with some insight of what makes one limb more valuable to him over others. I don't think John is so unique a situation that his reasoning wouldn't have some value to others.


Man, that makes my head hurt...  Read that several times and still don't understand what the point is.

Look, what I mean is that any given archer has a set of criteria and a set of physical specifications that are their very own. Given those things, there are limbs that will be better suited to their needs, and other that will not. It really is that simple. There is no such thing as the "best" limb, no matter how much some folks want to anoint their favorites as such...

I previously adored my SKY limbs for their good speed and silky smooth draw out to 33". And I loved how quiet they were on any riser. But these Masters limbs are faster and dare I say even smoother drawing than my SKY's were. They are not as quiet, but I've learned to live with that. I can shoot 2# less draw weight and get the same arrow speed with the Masters limbs versus the SKY's. And the SKY's were as fast as any limbs I had shot until I tried the Masters. So that's what it came down to for me.

I've shot many other good limbs that would be fine if I didn't have such a long draw length. But almost every limb out there begins to stack at 30-31". And there is good reason for that. It improves performance for the majority of archers. Just not me.

John.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Man, that makes my head hurt...  Read that several times and still don't understand what the point is.


What I was getting at really wasn't that different than your point.

There are a lot of threads where people ask "What's the best Bow/Arrrow/Plunger/Limb"--what ever. Then people usually chime in and say, "It depends, so there is no single thing that could be called 'Best' "--which is fine, except they leave it at that, cutting off the discussion prematurely. Sure, there is no one thing that could be called 'best' for all purposes, the about "best" is really a search for quality and performance, so, if there is no "best" what are the qualities that are good in a limb, for what purposes, what limbs have them, what are the trade offs. In other words, what is some specific information that can help us evaluate specific makes and models of limbs to see if they will suit our needs--information that can help those of us who haven't had the opportunity to try tens of thousands of dollars worth of limbs navigate the bewildering array of limbs out there and determine if paying more money will get us anything of value or if we are better off saving our money and spending it on other things. There is no "Consumer Reports" for ILF limbs, so the OP is seeking informed opinions and reasoning.


----------



## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

In short we all agree there is no best, though we consider some limbs better than others. What qualities make some limbs better than the others?

If we don't ask what qualities make a limb better, we don't have a good indepth conversation besides laundry listing "good" limbs.

I think that sums up Warbow's paragraph. How'd I do?


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TheShadowEnigma said:


> In short we all agree there is no best, though we consider some limbs better than others. What qualities make some limbs better than the others?
> 
> If we don't ask what qualities make a limb better, we don't have a good indepth conversation besides laundry listing "good" limbs.
> 
> I think that sums up Warbow's paragraph. How'd I do?


Sounds good to me, and much more succinct.

I need a new set of limbs and I want more information to help me choose a specific brand and model, information that can help me tell what one gets for all that extra money the expensive limbs cost.

Ideally, all the makers would post FD curves and efficiency data, and come up with a quantitative measurement for torsional stability--and they'd list their *exact* DW, not the rounded up or down weight to their nearest standard limb weight. Or there would be a website with all that data. Or I could go and try dozen different limbs at my local dealer with an Easton FD curve generating scale and a chrony. However, none of those things are currently available. The limb makers don't have the FD curves on their websites. There is no big website with current information on all the limbs I'm curious about. And there are no local dealers with more than a couple of ILF limbs in stock, let alone a range of brands and weights.

So, instead, people ask "what's the best limb" to start a discussion about what are some top limbs and why.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

The answer is yes, there are absolute answers about best archery equipments of any kind, but nobody will ever tell you "this is the best", apart from its original manufacturer, an so called experts will tend to give you "relative" answers, for polite reasons only.. 
So these kind of questions will go on forever without real answers...


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

For me...a limb that has the most torsionally stablity, produced the fastest arrow speeds, the smoothest drawing, most durable and is the quietest...I will have found the best hunting and perhaps the best target limb for me 

I'm guessing...if we had accurate measurments that defined what a limbs capability was regarding stabilty, speed, smoothness of draw, durability and sound levels (for hunting) we would be able to determine if there was such a thing as the best limb.

But based on my experience...it's more or less a compromise of sorts.

I have yet to see just one limb outperform all other limbs in every aspect or see detailed testing comparing all limbs in those areas.

Ray


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm guessing...if we had accurate measurments that defined what a limbs capability was regarding stabilty, speed, smoothness of draw, durability and sound levels (for hunting) we would be able to determine if there was such a thing as the best limb.


I wish we had more data to go by. The manufacturers undoubtedly do but don't care to release that data since they don't want to have to market their limbs based on actual, objective performance data. (And, I could see a case that such data could be somehow misleading...)

I'd like to buy a limb that is smooth and efficient. I realize that those can be trade offs that one may have to compromise on, but without data, I'm flying blind. I tried some Sebastian Flute Carbon limbs, but they stacked something awful, according to feel and the scale. But, I didn't have a chrono, so I don't know what kind of efficiency I may have gotten in exchange for the stacking, if any.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

You could save your self some effort and just buy what Olympians and world champs are using, if you have $250-500 to spend. Any of those limbs will obviously perform well. It might seem like a cop out or being a sheep following the herd, but the better archers wouldn't use anything that would be a detriment to them... regardless of sponsorship.

Right now the hot deals in higher end limbs seem to be Samick Masters (discontinued) and W&W Inno (many prices have dropped due to newer limbs released) Also Hoyt G3's seem to be going pretty cheap.

Any of them would set world records if you shoot 'em correctly. :wink:


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jason22 said:


> Any of them would set world records if you shoot 'em correctly. :wink:


I have absolutely no doubt that limbwalker and others could generally kick arse with any limb on the market. I, on the other hand, want a limb that is pleasant to shoot and fairly efficient that isn't excessively expensive. It is easier, I think, to pick out limbs when the sky is the limit, harder when you want good value for you money but have very little data to go on.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

Warbow said:


> I have absolutely no doubt that limbwalker and others could generally kick arse with any limb on the market. I, on the other hand, want a limb that is pleasant to shoot and fairly efficient that isn't excessively expensive. It is easier, I think, to pick out limbs when the sky is the limit, harder when you want good value for you money but have very little data to go on.


Sounds like you would want to check out the other thread on here about moderately priced limbs. :thumbs_up
The opening post in this thread was "If money was no object...what ILF limbs would you buy? List your top 5 Limbs."


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Vittorio is correct.

Years ago, I got cross-wise with a well known authority on fita recurve gear by asking if they could objectively tell me how the newest limbs on the market were any better than Earl Hoyt's Carbon Plus limbs (which is what I was shooting at the time). I never got a straight answer, and it turns out, those latest and greatest limbs probably weren't any better than the venerable C+ limbs. In fact, I'd say they were not even as good and I know a lot of folks who would agree with me.

The problem with testing limbs is that you cannot factor in all the variables that each archer thinks is most important to them, and all the physical variables as well. Too darn many to account for. That's why there are so many different limbs out there. And we are all better off for it.

And remember, after it's all said and done, we're really just talking about bending some simple springs in a fixed fulcrum. There's only so much that can be done with that technology...

And anyone looking for points in the limbs is searching in the wrong place IMO...

John.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

> Border was sponsoring Michele by the way of Best Italy from 1995 to 1998. Then, we disagreed about some solution they were going to use on new limbs at that time, and they decided to stop sponsoring Michele and in any case the new owner of the company decided it was better for them NOT to give sponsorship limbs anymore to any top level archer


Interesting you say that Vittorio as Border is now openly negative towards companies that sponsor archers. 
In my opinion I like to see the marketing budgets of companies I deal with go back into archery, especially my local archers, because without the support of our locals we can not develop the sport in our regions.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> And anyone looking for points in the limbs is searching in the wrong place IMO...
> 
> John.


Hmm...I'm quite not sure what to say to that. And I'm not sure that you and Vittorio are quite saying the same thing. Anyway, I'm not looking for points in the limbs. I'm looking for smooth, efficient limbs without spending more than I need to. Limbs that I'll enjoy shooting and that will get me out to the distance I want. A pair of old Hoyt Carbon limbs might be what I'm looking for--and yes, I know this is the money is no object thread, but some issues came up in this thread which is why I'm posting in this thread.

Ideally we'd all have the opportunity to try out all the limbs we are interested in. In the real world most of us don't have access to that as a possibility. So, instead, we seek the impressions of others and, hopefully, objective data to go with it. With such information I could see what limbs you like and why, and how the data matches up with your preferences. Would that tell me what limbs to buy? No, I'm not saying that, but it might give me an idea of how to interpret the data based on certain people's preferences, so that I could better narrow my search down. Let's use movie reviews as an example. Movies preferences aren't perfectly analogous because they are entirely subjective, but that is ok because I want to concentrate on the subjective quality that is your focus. So, do I just read a movie review and take it at face value? No. I try and find a movie reviewer who's taste is similar to mine. I also check multiple reviews, both professional and amateur at sites like metacritic. By doing so I can get a better idea of whether I might like a film rather than the impression the movie studio marketing department wants me to have. Is it perfect? No, but it is useful. Asking for opinions on limbs is similar. Is it perfect? No. But, I think it is useful.

I find that seeking the informed opinions of others (taken with a grain of salt, of course) is one of the most useful aspects of a forum like Archery talk. I could flail around and spend thousands blindly, or I can do research, and find out, for instance, that a certain brand of limbs stacks (I already know I hate limbs that stack). Is preliminary research a bad idea? Not all of us have the same access to try equipment that some top shooters do.


----------



## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Hmm...I'm quite not sure what to say to that. And I'm not sure that you and Vittorio are quite saying the same thing. Anyway, I'm not looking for points in the limbs. I'm looking for smooth, efficient limbs without spending more than I need to. A pair of old Hoyt Carbon limbs might be what I'm looking for--and yes, I know this is the money is no object thread, but some issues came up in this thread which is why I'm posting in this thread.
> 
> Ideally we'd all have the opportunity to try out all the limbs we are interested in. In the real world most of us don't have access to that as a possibility. So, instead, we seek the impressions of others and, hopefully, objective data to go with it. With such information I could see what limbs you like and why, and how the data matches up with your preferences. Would that tell me what limbs to buy? No, I'm not saying that, but it might give me an idea of how to interpret the data based on certain people's preferences, so that I could better narrow my search down. Let's use movie reviews as an example. Movies preferences aren't perfectly analogous because they are entirely subjective, but that is ok because I want to concentrate on the subjective quality that is your focus. So, do I just read a movie review and take it at face value? No. I try and find a movie reviewer who's taste is similar to mine. I also check multiple reviews, both professional and amateur at sites like metacritic. By doing so I can get a better idea of whether I might like a film rather than the impression the movie studio marketing department wants me to have. Is it perfect? No, but it is useful. Asking for opinions on limbs is similar. Is it perfect? No. But, I think it is useful.
> 
> I find that seeking the informed opinions of others (taken with a grain of salt, of course) is one of the most useful aspects of a forum like Archery talk. I could flail around and spend thousands blindly, or I can do research, and find out, for instance, that a certain brand of limbs stacks (I already know I hate limbs that stack). Is that really a bad idea? Not all of us have the same access to try equipment that some top shooters do.


Sign in to Mr Cranky for your film reviews:wink:

I like John's point of "living with the noise" That pretty much sums it up. Some will live with noise vs smoother draw. Some would no doubt find the noise unacceptable and go to another limb. The absolute is in the archer himself. Only you know what you like and dislike and that means searching around for the limb that matches your personality.

You could no doubt have the best empirical limb on the planet, by qualitative measures, and I'd darn near guarantee half the people who shot them would pick something else.

Shoot everything you can borrow or otherwise get your hands on, it's part of your development as an archer.

Personally The Carbon + gets my vote for GOTO limbs. BUT I'm still cursing myself for not grabbing all the GreenHorn stuff that was cleared out of Texas (some kind of joke in there I'm sure) a few years back. Love to try the compound curve limbs


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Sign in to Mr Cranky for your film reviews:wink:
> 
> I like John's point of "living with the noise" That pretty much sums it up. Some will live with noise vs smoother draw. Some would no doubt find the noise unacceptable and go to another limb. The absolute is in the archer himself. Only you know what you like and dislike and that means searching around for the limb that matches your personality.


That would be a vital point if I said, "John, pick out a limb for me." But that's not what I'm saying. If John says, "I like these limbs for these reasons" and Vittorio, and others weigh in with their own preferences, and the reasons behind their preferences, we can gain useful information that we can put in perspective and compare how those choices, and the reasoning behind them compare to our own preferences.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> And anyone looking for points in the limbs is searching in the wrong place IMO


Gotta agree with Warbow on that one...but I actually know what to say about that.

Most every competitive archer I know...including myself...and especially those competeing in FITA or Olympic style competitions choose equipment to some degree or another based on what they feel gives them the best advantage in scoring as many possible points as they can.

Tournaments can be won or lost by a matter of only a few points...and I know that choices in equipment can make the difference when competition is that close.

Scores are primarily achieved by the shooter but the slightest mistake in form or release can often be minimalized by some of the options regarding our equipment.

If we were all perfect shooting machines...equipment choices would nearly have no effect on an archer's score...but the reality is...they do...even if it's minimal.

Ray


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

guys..i think we are overthinking this thread...the original poster just asked for your choices....i replied with MY choices...you don't have to agree with them nor am i expecting you to...and vice-versa.......some chose to add more info on their choices which is fine too....i learned names of limbs i never heard of before which is great....and except for one exception i only chose limbs i have actually bought and shot....PS...i doubt if anyone can beat JimC and Vittorio when it comes to actual experience on different limbs.....


----------



## zal (May 1, 2007)

So much in these go back to personal preference.

Even though I prefer the feel of woodcore limbs, I know that there are other good, possibly better limbs with synthetic cores. And after all I'm shooting winex currently. Believe me, if I'd ever notice something that I felt that was wrong or inferior in them I'd swap to woodcore in a second. But the scores I'm getting with them doesn't justify that.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Marcus said:


> Interesting you say that Vittorio as Border is now openly negative towards companies that sponsor archers.
> In my opinion I like to see the marketing budgets of companies I deal with go back into archery, especially my local archers, because without the support of our locals we can not develop the sport in our regions.




..... i do not interpret vittorio's statements as saying that border is OPENLY NEGATIVE TOWARDS COMPANIES THAT SPONSOR ARCHERS....based on my communications and phone conversations with sidney ball sr. they just do not believe their limited resources justify any sponsorhip arrangements at present.....they would rather pour all their resources towards research and development in the the improvement of their product....they have no problem with other manufacturer's doing the sponsorship deals....they just don't think it's the right thing for THEM to do at this time.....different strokes for different folks i guess!!...PS...my own take on this is they are happy enough with their present feedback system from their own paying customers ...the UK based forum archery-interchange.net has a dedicated area for border owners....


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Most every competitive archer I know...including myself...and especially those competeing in FITA or Olympic style competitions choose equipment to some degree or another based on what they feel gives them the best advantage in scoring as many possible points as they can.


I'm not sure I agree with that. I mean, the "top" shooters (whoever they are) are usually sponsored by a company or at least given free equipment by a company to use. So they use that brand of limb/riser/whatever. You don't see Butch using PSE limbs on his Hoyt risers or Vic using Hoyt limbs on his Mathews risers, or Brady using W&W limbs, etc., etc., etc. Likewise, archers from other countries are similarly brand loyal. 

But guess what (and here's my point)... They all still shoot at the top level. 

Why? Because when you line up the top limbs from each company, there ain't a hill of beans difference in any of them.

So (and here's the dissapointing part for some of you gadget geeks), just about any of the better limbs out there will get the job done.

So what does that leave? Things like personal preference. Graphics, construction, sound, "brand" loyalty, etc. 

I can promise you that if all the top archers were forced to shoot "stock" Carbon Plus limbs, their scores would not suffer one bit.

Heck, I know one U.S. archer that got fed up with his sponsor's offerings and went back to using limbs that were discontinued at least 6 years ago. And at one event, he went back to using limbs that were 10 years old or more...

So that is why I say if you're looking for points in the limbs, you may be better served to spend your time shooting. Even if it's just blank bale in the garage ... 

John.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> But guess what (and here's my point)... They all still shoot at the top level.


That may be your point...but it still doesn't take away from the fact that competitive archers choose equipment based on what they believe they can score the best with...even if they are sponsored or brand loyal.

I never said there was a big difference or nearly any noticable difference in the top limbs to make a difference if any...but there can be a difference in the top limbs and the entry level limbs....which is why you don't see many top level competitive archers using so called entry level limbs. 

Arrow choices are no different.



limbwalker said:


> So (and here's the dissapointing part for some of you gadget geeks), just about any of the better limbs out there will get the job done.


Gadget geeks??? What is that?



limbwalker said:


> So that is why I say if you're looking for points in the limbs, you may be better served to spend your time shooting. Even if it's just blank bale in the garage


Now...that's a comment I can agree with  Choosing top level equipment will most likely gain an archer only a few points. The majority of the points are accumlated through developing good form, good execution and good aiming through practice.

Ray


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As limbwalker says, sponsored archers use equipements from the brand sponsoring them, only; that does not mean they will use ANY equipment the company will give them, but sometime they stay with an older model if they feel that that one is better than the new one. Tens of cases seen, including 2008 Olympics. It may happen that a sponsored archer thinks that a piece form another brand is better than what he is using at the moment, but he will continue to use what he is committed to use. If you are hired to drive McLaren, no matter if a Ferrari does better, you will drive your Mc Laren at your best (F1 similarity...)
Then, regret to say, never think that you can get off the shelves exactly the same equipments champions are using. They are the same in shape and color, but surely not in outgoing QC for all their parameters. This happens in all sports, of course.

Arrows are another story, of course... At top level, everyone but few use X10 even if many nations have to buy them for their top level archers. But, this is is another story...


----------



## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Vittorio said:


> As limbwalker says, sponsored archers use equipements from the brand sponsoring them, only; that does not mean they will use ANY equipment the company will give them, but sometime they stay with an older model if they feel that that one is better than the new one. Tens of cases seen, including 2008 Olympics. It may happen that a sponsored archer thinks that a piece form another brand is better than what he is using at the moment, but he will continue to use what he is committed to use. If you are hired to drive McLaren, no matter if a Ferrari does better, you will drive your Mc Laren at your best (F1 similarity...)
> Then, regret to say, never think that you can get off the shelves exactly the same equipments champions are using. They are the same in shape and color, but surely not in outgoing QC for all their parameters. This happens in all sports, of course.
> 
> Arrows are another story, of course... At top level, everyone but few use X10 even if many nations have to buy them for their top level archers. But, this is is another story...


Interesting point. Have you ever heard of a case where an archer jumped ship to another limb maker for performance reasons ? (As in Raikonnen going to Ferrari, when the Mclaren was a dog)


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> It may happen that a sponsored archer thinks that a piece form another brand is better than what he is using at the moment, but he will continue to use what he is committed to use. If you are hired to drive McLaren, no matter if a Ferrari does better, you will drive your Mc Laren at your best (F1 similarity...)


They most likely don't make the switch because they are under contract or have made a commitment. They are bound to it and can't make the switch without consequences.

If an archer feels strongly that another manufacture is that much better...and winning is their primary goal...I would bet they would be willing to break their contract and go with the other manufacture they believe will give them the advantage they need to score as many points as possible.

To imply that points, even though they may be minimal, can't be gained or lossed through equipment choices...is wrong, IMO. Just as I believe it would be wrong to imply that winning a tournament has more to do with equipment choices than it does with the archer's abilty.

Ray


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

In Beijing 2008 Olympic Games...

Serrano - Hoyt riser with Samick Extreme Limbs
Badenov - Hoyt Riser, W&W Inno Power limbs
Champia - Hoyt Riser, Samick Extreme limbs
Nespoli - Fiberbow riser with Samick Extreme BF Limbs
Wunderle - Mathews riser and I think he used Pre-Mathews Sky limbs instead of newer Mathews-Sky limbs like Brady was using

Not sure who was sponsored by which company, or if they were sponsored. Nespoli was definitely sponsored by Fiberbow and Vic was definitely sponsored by Matthews.


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

There is more to the world than ArcheryTalk. I never said that Vittorio post implied anything. 



jmvargas said:


> ..... i do not interpret vittorio's statements as saying that border is OPENLY NEGATIVE TOWARDS COMPANIES THAT SPONSOR ARCHERS....based on my communications and phone conversations with sidney ball sr. they just do not believe their limited resources justify any sponsorhip arrangements at present.....they would rather pour all their resources towards research and development in the the improvement of their product....they have no problem with other manufacturer's doing the sponsorship deals....they just don't think it's the right thing for THEM to do at this time.....different strokes for different folks i guess!!...PS...my own take on this is they are happy enough with their present feedback system from their own paying customers ...the UK based forum archery-interchange.net has a dedicated area for border owners....


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Interesting point. Have you ever heard of a case where an archer jumped ship to another limb maker for performance reasons ? (As in Raikonnen going to Ferrari, when the Mclaren was a dog)


Yes. My wife shot the World Target in 2005 with Samick gear. After the shoot she ordered some 66" limbs. After 3 sets and a second riser we got sick of the inconsistent dowels in the Samick limbs which were causing the alignment to change every shot that she went back to Hoyt. Since then she's won 2 Australian Indoor titles (with records) with the Hoyt bows.


----------



## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Marcus said:


> Yes. My wife shot the World Target in 2005 with Samick gear. After the shoot she ordered some 66" limbs. After 3 sets and a second riser we got sick of the inconsistent dowels in the Samick limbs which were causing the alignment to change every shot that she went back to Hoyt. Since then she's won 2 Australian Indoor titles (with records) with the Hoyt bows.


Ah, you see now that is useful information. As mentioned before by Mr. Magera, top shooters will place the same with just about any of the top level equipment. That pretty much goes for the compound universe also, in case anyone is interested.

So, when I look for advice on equipment from the top ranks, I am invariably interested in why a product is abandoned by a shooter. If it's an endorsement issue it is of absolutely no use to me information wise. If in fact, the case is like your wife's, then that is info that shooters can make use of.


----------



## Nick Forster (Feb 11, 2009)

KG Apexs. Traditional wood core limb very fast very smooth Made by KG Archery Nottingham England. incredibly consistent shot to shot. I have shot these limbs for the last 4 years, they are incredibly strong and reliable.
I have seen keith Gasgoigne walking along a pair of his limbs with no ill affects. The Apexs have 6 layers of carbon within the fade out core, KG's new limbs have 12 layers of carbon in the fade out core this help to make an incredably stable limb These Limbs are called Nexgen's
Border Hex5's I have limited experience with these but when I have shot them I have been Very impressed, Very Fast very smooth, you will need to go down another spine size in arrows to be in tune.

Border TXG's smooth fast and consistant these limbs took my son to the euronations representing England, fantastic Limb very hard to beat.

Win Win Inno's. good quality Limb quick, but not as quick as the limbs above, nice and consistant shot to shot.

Samick Masters, Extreams & BF's. enough said quality fast limb snappy limbs


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If an archer feels strongly that another manufacture is that much better...and winning is their primary goal...I would bet they would be willing to break their contract and go with the other manufacture they believe will give them the advantage they need to score as many points as possible.


Please see my point above about nearly all the top models being capable of producing top scores... There is a reason that sponsored archers are brand-loyal... because the better limbs/risers from any of the top manufacturers are perfectly capable of world class scores and they understand that it is more important HOW they shoot than WHAT they shoot. This is the point that some just don't want to accept because they still (erroneously) think that there must be some magic advantage to one set of limbs over another...



> As mentioned before by Mr. Magera, top shooters will place the same with just about any of the top level equipment.


Thank you Mr. B.M.

And B.W., "gadget geeks" are folks who sit around and argue endlessly about which set of limbs are better, or which risers are better, or whether or not Beiter plungers are worth the money...  Meanwhile, those really concerned about winning are training.

John.


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Please see my point above about nearly all the top models being capable of producing top scores...


Never disagreed with that.

The only thing I have disagreed with is when you made the comment



limbwalker said:


> And anyone looking for points in the limbs is searching in the wrong place IMO.


That statement you made by itself...is wrong...because even if an archer is brand loyal they are choosing equipment they believe they can score enough points with to win.

The fact that alot of highly competitive archers also mix and match certain limbs with certain risers is also an indication of archers choosing equipment that they believe will help them score the highest possible points with.

No archer I know...at least that I'm aware of...competes with equipment they feel they are at a disadvantage with. If they're thinking that...it's only a matter of time before those thoughts are going to mess with their head and ultimately their scores.



limbwalker said:


> And B.W., "gadget geeks" are folks who sit around and argue endlessly about which set of limbs are better, or which risers are better, or whether or not Beiter plungers are worth the money...  Meanwhile, those really concerned about winning are training.


Ahhhh....gotchya. Some of us better stop discussing this before we end up being called 'gadget geeks' 

Ray


----------



## OutPerformed (Jan 20, 2009)

I recently bought pair of N-Apecs limbs, which were a bit dissappointment for me. They are slightly faster than Inno power limbs, but not even nearly as torsionally stiff as Inno limbs. How important is it?

What would be the choise if we are looking for most stable/torsionally stiff limbs?


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

OutPerformed said:


> I recently bought pair of N-Apecs limbs, which were a bit dissappointment for me. They are slightly faster than Inno power limbs, but not even nearly as torsionally stiff as Inno limbs. How important is it?
> 
> What would be the choise if we are looking for most stable/torsionally stiff limbs?


GREAT question!!! I hope someone chimes in that may have done some side by side comparisons.

Curious...how did you test the Innos and the Apecs to tell if one or the other was more torsionally stable?

Was it by feel? Score? Or a more scientific approach?

Ray


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

These are the kind of tests I would looooove to see that should be at least somewhat easy to verify.

Speed.
Force Draw Curves.
Torsional Stability.
Sound.

Than we can choose limbs based on what we believe we need or want in a limb while seeing what we may also have to compromise by choosing a certain limb...since there proboblay isn't just one limb that excels as being the number 1 in every aspect.

Ray


----------



## OutPerformed (Jan 20, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> GREAT question!!! I hope someone chimes in that may have done some side by side comparisons.
> 
> Curious...how did you test the Innos and the Apecs to tell if one or the other was more torsionally stable?
> 
> ...


I think in this case we need no scientific approach... There is a huge different between these two limbs felt by hand. I would estimate atleast 30-50% better for Inno power limbs... Also vertical stability of nocking point is way better with Inno limbs. 

Vittorio stated somewhere Winex to be most stable of the W&W range... Yes they are torsionally very stiff, but still better than Inno? What else do you take account when speaking about "stability" of a limb.

I would rate N-Apecs still better than the 990TX limb and way better than 900cx in torsional stability.

In my opinion smoothnes is way overrated. All of the current limbs are fairly smooth and many top shooters shoot Samick Masters which are definetely not smoothest limbs in the market. New limbs are also fairly quiet...

But have I misunderstood the importance of torsional stability?

Simon Fairweather won Olympic gold medal with Hoy FX limbs.  Or maybe it doest make a difference for average archer(unlike Simon).


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

OutPerformed said:


> I think in this case we need no scientific approach...


I disagree. I think it would be very beneficial to have both a scientific approach and a personal shooter approach to how a limb feels and reacts to certain conditions and situations.

I've seen some videos of Win Win testing their limbs...I would just really enjoy seeing some of that test data down on paper for side by side comparisons of various limbs.



OutPerformed said:


> In my opinion smoothnes is way overrated.


It may be over-rated for the average archer...but for an archer with a long draw length it begins to play a bigger roll in an archer's desired characteristics in a limb.



OutPerformed said:


> But have I misunderstood the importance of torsional stability?


I don't think so. I could be wrong...but for me...torsional stabilty determines how a limb will respond to torque being placed on the limbs due to inconsistantcies with hand placement on the grip, force vectors created within our joint and bone alignment, torque on the bowstring and/or regarding a not so perfect release.



OutPerformed said:


> maybe it doest make a difference for average archer(unlike Simon).


I believe the average archer struggles with to many inconsistantcies with their form, aiming, timing and release to notice a difference...but for an archer who has pretty much perfected their techinique...it will most likely be more noticable.

In other words...when an archer's techinique is more perfected...it eliminates more of the variables.

Ray


----------



## OutPerformed (Jan 20, 2009)

Ray, what I meant was that the difference between these two limbs was so obvious...


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

OutPerformed said:


> Ray, what I meant was that the difference between these two limbs was so obvious...


Gotchya! 

Wow...the difference was really that obvious...so did one limb almost feel like a noodle compared to the other?

I know they are both great limbs...but is that what the difference felt like to you?

Ray


----------



## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

you know i already have this list and im 15 wow.
1. Winexes
2. Sky Conquest
3. Hoyt vectors (really close to being # 2)
4.Innos
5.Hoyt G3s
thats just what i think. now atleast. it may be different in acouple months.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

Jason22 said:


> Right now the hot deals in higher end limbs seem to be Samick Masters (discontinued) and...



*SAMICK MASTERS LIMBS ARE NOT DISCONTINUED.*

I don't know where I read that they were discontinued online, but now I feel crummy for repeating it earlier in this thread because it is not true. I assumed that since they were on clearance at Altservices that it confirmed what I had read elsewhere but that is not the case. I just spoke with Samick and they are still making Masters limbs and you can order them from Lancaster in any poundage.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

For archers with long draws (31"+), there is not a better limb available that I know of than the Samick Masters. For archers with normal draw lengths (28-31"), there are many good choices that are all pretty comparable. Get what you like and go shoot.

John.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Hello everyone, first post here, hope it helps to clear up a little dust.
Its true we dont sponser, we have valid reasons not to.
But to put some scale to this debate.
We make about 300-400 ILF limbs a year, and about 1000 bows in total.
So to get a mention here is nice to hear.
Things we think are important in limb design that help produce a good limb:
1) Smoothness of draw (stored energy)
2) Torsional stability
3) Light mass
4) Vertical nock stability.

to measure each of these comes down to simple little things:
1) well we should all know this one (this is NOT really effected by core material, if the cores have the same taper, this is all to do with the string angles off the tips, and thats dictated by the core profile, limb width,fade out profile, working limb length, and preload)
2) Take a non stabilised limb. at brace height, the limb tip moves left and right as easlily as back and forth. (granted 1/2" off to the left and right and it tightens up) This will help hold paradox inline more. (i said help and not solve) This is where a limb becomes more forgiving of a sloppy loose and thats what W&W and samick have adopted with the 45deg double angled carbon. The Slim tips of the FX made it left and right twitchy.
3)mass helps with efficency. Light mass helps spit arrows out quicker. The FX had slim widths which helped save mass and make for a quick limb. We used S2 glass and carbon in the Talisman and TXG/B limbs to save mass. This works exactly in the same way as a sports car. Light cars are just as fast even with smaller engines.
light mass limbs also help in reducing hand shock. The mass of forward moving parts is proportionally less to the mass of the riser.
4) the more preload and bend in the power section of a limb Fade out to start of recurve, the more the nocking point becomes unstable. This will make the path of the NP vairy with top to bottom finger release variations.

So efficency and forgiveness are what make good limbs stand out from the crowd.
The TXG/Talisman gold was the limb that inspired the Winex and Inno. Hope that helps with our thinking on limb designs and what makes a limb good.

Hope this addition to this thread is not out of order, but if its pulled then fare enough. 
In short, Carbon makes a light limb, so does good geometry. but most of all stability is the key. Fast can be dangerious, unless its controlled
Recurves are smoother than flatbows (longbows) so the more recurve you have the smoother it should feel. but the more recurve you have the more you need to stabilise it. That was the advent of the winex and inno, over more convetional lesser recurves. The amount of recurve on the G3 vs the Winnex is a valid test of this. If the tip is allowed to loose its shape to early, then you end up with what feels like less recurve too, this is done by odd core profiles or widths.

To prove how the quickly the recurve stops working,
Take an arrow and mark on the arrow the draw length where the string "just" leaves the limb at the loop. Then take a bow with a different recurve profile and do the same. The more recurve action will be seen on the arrow where the string comes off further into the draw cycle.

Cheers


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> So, it is nowdays very difficult to get any real info about performancies of Border limbs, as the base of those using them is limited to mainly UK archers of medium/local level, and frankly speaking, their opinion has no weight at all in the market. So, Border limbs are no more imported in Italy since many years, nor theu y are in amany other countries, but they are happy like this, as in any case they only have a very limited production capacity.


There are many aspects to archery. Fita is just one.... You will find that we hold top honours in Flight, Field and Crossbow, past and present.
Our products hold Many Flatbow world titles though many archers, and our takedown recurves hold many National titles in many countries.
These are areas of archery not yet touched by sponcership in any major way, and its also where product diversity is far greater. Not all bows look the same, and not all bows are founded on one main design. Im sure there are better designs of bow potentially out there, just no one dare to be really innovative due to there being a barrier to market at top level. and their for top turnover potential.
Im sure archery is a winner there!
its only Government level social policy that can make a company large enough to get onto that table... 
So in the mean time, we have other sectors in archery that have thriving choice and no heavy manipulation of the market, or the manipulated 3 horse race... Sounds like fun to me.
So yes marcus, Im sure you would agree that sponsership is good, you then have to stock less brands in your shop keep your capital costs low and turn over more money. i can respect you point of view too.

but thats a different topic completely.
There are some limbs out there that have a great mix of deisgn and materials. Kinda like a vintage. Just look at the limbs held in good faith by so many archers. These are the good limbs, and nothing to do with the advertising budget behind them or the number of top archers shooting them.


----------



## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for weighing in Borderbows. Welcome to AT.

Some good info in those two posts.


----------



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

+1 Great info Border, thanks!


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> For archers with long draws (31"+), there is not a better limb available that I know of than the Samick Masters. For archers with normal draw lengths (28-31"), there are many good choices that are all pretty comparable. Get what you like and go shoot.
> 
> John.


When it comes to long draws, draw for that matter then its 100% about Draw force curves. This will show how the length of working limb, how the recurve works, and how the core shape works in that limb... This is all shown in a DFC.
IN our opinion what your looking for in a limb is good initial build of power in the first say portion of the draw and the steeper the better (without loosing the vertical nocking point stability in a earlier post) this is called preload. Then you have the belly of the curve, where it flattens out, then you step into stack, the not so efficent lbs per inch. Stack is the tough part that long draw lengths feel most, and limbs with a lot of preload generally stack earler. if the limbs are of normal geometry.
The part that becomes our opinion on this is that unlike compounds where your looking to be in the trough of that DFC, your looking to be heading into it. This will give you the smoothest feel through the clicker. This makes the limbs feel smooth. The smoothness means that you have gained alot of weight early on in the Draw.... thats all good, as stored energy is what your looking for. The next thing to look for is the light mass so that this energy can come out well.
ALL as long as its in a straight line. Thats where our XP10 carbon idea has lead us.
I have only found one limb limb that makes a 68" bow, on a 25" riser that would not stack at 31".
The idea comes from some basic archery principals... Longbows loose there string angles from the very first inch, (flatbows here in the UK) Hybrid bows help defend the string angles by pointing more forward/upright at brace height. Whippy tipped bows loose this string angle early. and stack early as a result. the next logical progresion is a mild recurve, which holds its string angles till even further than a hybrid bow, again feeling smoother... so why not have super recurves??? there are examples of (in relative terms) whippy tipped ILF limbs, these just like simple longbows stack early.
Long draws want limbs that defend the string angles, its that simple. Find one and you will have a smooth feeling bow (within reason, the bow needs to be well designed too, lol)


----------



## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

+2

Ray


----------



## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Don't know about top five but*

Here goes
KAP Winstorm, why because they are cheap enough for everyone, and probably shoot better than most of us can, so for the common man trying to survive in a rich mans sport. So I vote for them.


----------



## bugeaterNE (Apr 8, 2009)

What would be the top 5 for the rest of us...Intermediate price...Top performance. Criteria: speed, smooth, quiet, stability, price...?


----------



## bugeaterNE (Apr 8, 2009)

Well After reading as much as I could on these threads about limbs I ordered a set of medium WW Pro Accent limbs at 38# for my Pinnacle 2. The price was right and at least one contributor thought they were faster than his Winex. Also went for a less expensive set of SF GSF limbs and an 21" Hoyt Excel riser to go with them. 40# shorts to give me a 62" bow. The GSF, if they shoot well seem a great value for the money. They are supposed to ship Friday. I'll report back once I get everything tuned up and shooting.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Borderbows, thanks for the information! Neat stuff.

If you have a limb that you think would work better for me than the Masters, I'm all ears...

John.


----------



## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

Borderbows,
Having the opposite problem from Limbwalker, I am interested in your views concerning getting the best stable speed for a 27" draw.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

the problem of limb design is getting the most stored energy, for the given draw weight on your fingers.
40lbs is 40lbs. its down to perception if its hard to draw or not, and you have pulled 40lbs for how ever menay arrows you have shot, so i think that there is a mind over matter issue which is good to have if your bow feels easy to pull and not stacky/hard to pull.
At the end of the day, you will still have pulled 40lbs X the number of arrows.
The next issue is to get as much return for the energy pulled, and this is efficency. If i aliken this to cars, then you can have a big heavy Rolls Royce, with its 6liter fuel guzzing turbo engine giving you a 0-60mph in 6 seconds, or you can have a 1.8liter Lotus elise giving you 0-60 of the same 6 seconds. So you can either pull 50lbs with a heavy mass limb to give you 200fps, or you can shoot 45lbs with a light mass limb and still get 200fps with the same arrow mass. if you see what im getting at. efficency is about limb mass.
If you have a lighter car, you need a smaller engine to get the same performance.
The question then comes to a more complex area.
Stability.
To gain stability you need to add some extra materials. this adds mass.
The XP10/biased carbon adds mass to a limb, but i can say that there are extra tweeks that can be done to store more energy to help compensate for this.
Stack and stored energy are all functions of the limb width, core profile, and recurve profile. Along with riser/limb length. so if we all use carbon laminates/and light cores, then we all have similar mass limbs, the next question is!!! limbs shape. The original Hoyt limbs which had no stability enhancement, had to have reduced recurve shapes to hold the whole lot stable, as the more recurve the more lateral leaverage can be applied. so a wider limb is needed, but you will see that since that french bow test, W&W adopted our widths and recurve shape with the Winex and Inno. so have in essence gained our stored energy. The next hazard needed was a torsional stiffening effect, which in its final guise, is exacty the same as our XP10 carbon. so in essence it was our limb which in profile is now 17 years old and with XP10 now 11 years old. This gave them that smooth feeling, and that speed that few other limbs had.
The FX had the original Hoyt style profile, but it saved mass by using slim tips, which gave it a flexy tip, and also made it sensative to shoot in our opinion.
The issue we pushed was that we needed to lighten our laminate for our next step.
We used S2 glass with XP10 followed by UD carbon for our Talisman TX40 limbs, which then became our TXB or TXS or TXG, (different cores) which if you look at the Layup of the zentronS in your masters (you need to look up what ZentronS is to understand what im getting at) you might find a similarity there.
But to get the next stage of evolution of smoother draw and more strored energy, we needed more recurve. But to get more recurve we needed more stability... But with out adding more mass...
We achived this with our CXC laminate. which allowed the Hex5 limbs to work well.
We have adopted this CXC laminate accross the board, so now our renamed TX series, now the CX limbs have 2x the stiffness of the Inno, while still having the same stored energy and a slight lightening of mass.
The Next evolution of our TX/CX limbs is called our HEX limbs where we are trying to enhance the stored energy for the same given limb mass, this is where the two items of stored enrgy and smooth draw are linked, as you are holding stack off till later on in the draw.

The Inno limb and the masters are similar limbs in technological evolution, they appear that they are both the first generation of torsionally enhanced limbs, our TX are similar again, but the real gains are with the Hex4 (4th generation) and the HEX5 (5th generation) of the High Energy eXpress ideas.
This has been our plans, over the last 11 years, and the Inno is proof that we are on the right lines. To make sure we are not selling a duff, we have made sure that the extra leaverage of the Hex5 is no where near as supple left and right as the likes of the Inno. This is where we are at in terms of our published technologies, and we have this idea regestered with our lawers, as the widths and recurve profile are Horribly Unkanny similarities between our Xp10 limbs and the Inno along with the XP10/Surprising stiffening effect of double angles carbon. Which is NOT really an Innovation as we have had it out for 11-12 years.

Again, this all down to your opinion as to which limb is the better, as some people like a stacky limb while others like a good looking limb. We have our ideas and only archers like you, will decide if they work for you.

We are archery geeks, and we spend all our time thinking about recurves and Longbows, we are not constrained by large capital costs of limb formers like the big boys, so we get to play with all aspects of recurve design. from Materials, widths and profiles.
Kinda keeps us awake some nights ;-)
PS: its 22:16 here in scotland. lol


----------



## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

I don't usually weigh in on these things, but...engtee - I have a draw just a hair shorter than that and am pulling 32# through the clicker on my Masters limbs, and 32.2# on a new pair of 990TX's. 

My first set of limbs was a pair of KAP Winstorms, which I shot for about six months, and then went to the Masters limbs for about a year, which shot well on an X-Factor and even better on my GMX... and have just switched to the 990's recently. 

I find the 990's to be very smooth at my draw length, and at 70m, they are grouping better than the Masters limbs ever have. Haven't switched anything else - spin wing color, nocks, plunger, rest, nothing - the setup is exactly the same. But again, I agree with what John said - it's different for every archer, based on a number of factors not the least of all being draw length, draw weight, etc.

And again, you have to take into account the mental factor, too - if you have it in your head that one thing shoots better than another, I'm convinced you will believe that you see a difference, or at least lose confidence in the other thing.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and at 70m, they are grouping better than the Masters limbs ever have.


My guess is a difference in tuning. Not likely that simply switching from a pair of Masters limbs to 990's would result in a difference in grouping so significant that you could see it without statistical and/or target plot software.

John.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

just a quick note. I have been playing with a GMX and Hoyt 900 (40 lb medium) limbs for the upcoming state and national field tournaments. I wasn't really happy with the GMX and thus I pulled out my old Sky with 40 lb ten year old medium limbs that I used in the various fields from 99-2005 or so. 

While it is difficult to compare these two bows due to the fact that the sky is a 24" riser and you cannot use the same string on either to get equivalent brace heights I should note that using CTMCKII 650 with 100 grain ace points, the Sky was shooting around 210 and the Hoyt was in the 203 range. I then put on 38 Lb SKY limbs (Circa 1999 or 2000-fairly new though) and they were still a couple FPS faster and felt smoother. No I didn't weigh the limbs though.


----------



## John K (Dec 13, 2004)

Speaking as an archer of no great skill but with a long draw length (approaching 32in) I can confidently say no Border limb I have ever shot has stacked at my draw length. This includes a set of 68in ML2 limbs and even a very short Border Khan one-piece recurve 58in in length.

My old XP10 Border limbs aren't as smooth as, say, Winex. However, their design predates the Winex by several years and the later Border limbs are even smoother and more stable.

My HEXV Mk1 limbs are the best I've ever shot... just a shame my brain keeps letting me down. Back to clicker training at the moment. Ho hum 

To be fair, most modern limbs don't stack provided I try a long set. The only ones that have done are Samick Extremes. A junior in my club shoots a 28.5in draw with medium Extremes that stack like crazy at 27in onwards. He still shoots better than anyone else around here, even at 100 yards.


----------



## zal (May 1, 2007)

Have to agree with John & John and other long-draw contributors.

Masters (and previously agulla ultras which I shot for a while) are one of the smoothest limbs at my 32.7in draw.

I'm currently shooting winex's which are also very good at these lengths, and having previously shot border talismans and hex4 have to say that I had no problems with those. I was quite fond of my old talismans, and might try CXG's some time when I can conjure up some reason to change limbs.

Some limbs, such as 990, just can't do these drawlengths comfortably, neither can extremes, most other hoyt limbs etc.


----------

