# Cam Leaning I don't get it



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

A lot of bows actually "like" a little pre lean in their cams, so don't get hung up worrying about excessive cam lean right off the bat... 

That being said, the cam lean probably is not what's causing your arrows to act badly--you're way overspined shooting the Blue Streak 250s with that set up; In fact, the 150s might still be a little stiff unless you ran them a little longer and with more weight in front. With your shorter DL and lower DW, something in the 500-600 spine range would work better for you depending on the desired application.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

are you really sure? Because OT2 says it's nearly perfect?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

i don't see an arrow spine problem.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you aren't seeing cam lean.... you are seeing torque. This can be shooter induced (or magnified) but is a fact of with compounds and cable guards (worse with rigid roller guards). 

It would be highly unusual for a RH top cam to lean more like \ at full draw than at brace. If it is in fact doing so, it is most likely a limb problem...but like I said, it really sounds like torque. Come to full draw, twist the riser so the cam's string track lines up with the string and I bet it suddenly isn't leaning any more or may even slightly be like /. 

While we're here, the twist count in each yoke and the difference between the two is irrelevant. What matters is the cam lean. And you still have several twists even in the lesser.

Lastly, arrows don't fly for 50 meters clean and then start fish tailing. You may be seeing an optical illusion or you may be seeing some parachuting effect as it falls. You have a lot of vane for just a little point weight.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

thank you for your help. I think I need one who makes a photo behind of me when I am at full draw.

I will come back with some pictures during this week


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't think you're over spined. The Motive likes a stiff spine much more than a weaker spine. The Blue Streaks are a .413 deflection so they are weaker than your standard 400 spined arrow anyway. Like I said, I don't think you're over spined but it would be a good idea to find out for sure. The easiest thing to do to tell if you're overspined would be to increase the point weight. Try a 100gr and a 125gr point and see what happens. 

Here's a great thread by Ontarget7 when he got his motive and how he tuned it. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2054395


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

But if I really have \ lean at full Draw... Does that automatically mean limb issues?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

huezzn said:


> But if I really have \ lean at full Draw... Does that automatically mean limb issues?


There are very few things that automatically mean anything. There may be multiple explanation for almost everything tuning related. The Motive is a relatively short ATA bow with a fixed roller guard. Chances are the top cam will lean a little at full draw because that's the way the cables are pulled. It happens to almost every bow made that doesn't have a shoot through system. You'll never get rid of all the lean on your Motive. If you have the pre-lean set similar to where Ontarget7 did in that thread, then start there and let your tuning decide where the lean is best.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Ditto @ huntinsker


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## neck shot (Feb 15, 2013)

well what you guys think would be causing his fish tail. I am no way related to this post just curious what would cause this fishtailing


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

poor centershot setup, spine, torquing the grip, anchor pulling to one side can all contribute....if we're positive that center shot is spot on then I'd say torquing the grip, though could be a spine issue (just found mine was an issue this weekend-- was about 1.5 turns off)

If you haven't done a bare shaft test- do it. at the longest range you can slap 2 bare shafts together (regularly), fire 3 fletched arrows- then fire 2 bare shaft--do they strike R/L, or slap with the fletched...increase/decrease draw weight to get the BS to slap fletched. 

Once the above is done- go back and redo the walk-back test.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I see nothing wrong with your arrows. I might opt for 90 or 100 grs, but that's me.

Cam lean, blamed for everything. Some of the most accurate bows I've owned had cam or wheel lean or both. Most not correctable due to the use of floating yokes or me caring less. Yes, reducing or removing cam or wheel lean is good. But the effect of cam lean from bow at rest to full draw really remains much the same, just more centered to the bow.

What anti-cam lean devices available only keep cam lean in check. You don't see a lot of these devices running rampant among us archers... Just did a quick check in my Lancaster catalog and can't even one listed. Want to be finicky, get a offset guide rod or make one with a bend to cam lean consistent. Some one in the Martin Forums had pictures of his and it worked far better than the TRG/SOS Martin came out with in 2011.


*"Centershot is ok, I shot a vertical line up to 50 yards. But if I shoot longer distances, I see my arrows fishtailing (my friends saw it too)." *

Arrows don't go stupid down range if they were flying good to start with. Are you seeing the off colored vane as the arrow rotates? This can give the illusion of fish tailing.

So test. Shoot through paper at varying distances from up close to as far out as you wish, 60 yards even. Just put up a sheets of paper well before the target and keep backing up. If your arrow is "goofing off" the tears will show it at different distances.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

"Fishtailing" can be caused by all kinds of things. Poor spine, centershot, form, grip torque, fletching contact and about 50 other things can cause it. Even the color of your fletchings can cause an illusion of fishtailing. It is impossible to tune out "fishtailing". Unless you use a tuning technique to find out which way the arrow is coming off the bow and tune to fix that. You can't tell what the arrow is doing coming off the bow by just watching the arrow fly down range. 

Like Fury90flier said, shooting bareshafts with fletched is an excellent way to tune a bow but if you don't know what the bareshaft is telling you, it's worthless. I'd recommend reading through the PDF in this thread. It will give step by step instructions on how to set up and begin tuning your bow. There are other methods but this is one that most can do at home and it gives you the explanation of what to do and why.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

hey guys,

I appreciate all your input. Maybe I explained it a bit wrong: I meant that I can see fishtailing when I shot at a black target. I have white vanes and white wraps, so I am pretty sure this is not an illusion.

I allways try to learn as much as I can from the nutsandbolts pdf, but things are not allways as easy as in instructions 

Maybe I will start from the beginning and will post some pictures of my form, if you guys can have a quick view on it, I would be really glad  Unfortunetely, I am only able to take pictures earlierst on friday...

Kevin


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Sorry, guys, I still cannot get the spine out of my head just from my personal experience with CE Blue Streaks... I feel the OP should throw in a 100 and 125gr point in those 250s just to see if what he's seeing as fishtailing goes away. It's a cheap evaluation and if it's not the spine, then it would likely be something in his form or vane contact... :wink:


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

exactly why I suggest a bare shaft vs fletched test....at long range, even half a turn can make a difference in great flight and so so flight.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

guys I have just 1 questions between the next steps: WHAT IF

I have cam lean like that at full draw \ , but my right yoke is very very much twisted, while my left yoke is completely untwisted? Is the only conclusion limb issue then?

just WHAT IF


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

huezzn said:


> guys I have just 1 questions between the next steps: WHAT IF
> 
> I have cam lean like that at full draw \ , but my right yoke is very very much twisted, while my left yoke is completely untwisted? Is the only conclusion limb issue then?
> 
> just WHAT IF


No. The amount of twists in the yoke don't matter. 

If you have lean like / at brace and then like \ at full draw, you have a problem.

If you have lean like \ at brace and the like \ at full draw, you probably have more at brace \ than you need to have. Tune to find out.

If you have about the right amount of lean like \ at brace, at full draw it should look approximately like |


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

Just for my umderstanding : it is not possible to have more \ at full draw then \ at brace?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

huezzn said:


> Just for my umderstanding : it is not possible to have more \ at full draw then \ at brace?


Not really. During the draw cycle, the load transitions into the cable track (closer to the right limb) so it makes the cam go from whatever it is set at towards /

If it goes towards \ during the draw, it is probably a limb problem.

Like I said though in the first post, if you see that it is far more likely that it is an optical illusion and what you are really seeing (or causing) is torque.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

huezzn said:


> Just for my umderstanding : it is not possible to have more \ at full draw then \ at brace?


If you are still checking the cam lean at full draw and it looks more like \ , that means the string is coming off the cam a little more to the left side of the cam. That would happen if you're torqueing the bow with more pressure on your thumb side of the grip. You'd basically be turning the bow riser counterclockwise so your stabilizer points to the left a little. Try playing with your grip and see if putting more pressure on your pinky side doesn't straighten it out.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*"Centershot is ok, I shot a vertical line up to 50 yards. But if I shoot longer distances, I see my arrows fishtailing (my friends saw it too)." *


Let's don't go where another thread went..... The OP has to give us something more.....


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## BROWN STAR (Dec 20, 2013)

If he is shooting outdoors, *ANY* cross wind may/will give the arrow some noticeable fishtailing action downrange! but hardly noticeable, if at all, at shorter ranges. This effect may also be noticeable with a tail wind as to where a head wind actually helps keep the arrow straighter downrange.

NO amount of tuning can overcome the forces of even the slightest breeze! 

Keep in mind that any tuning while shooting should be done on dead calm days and if you will be tuning for more than one day in a row then the outside temp and humidity should be nearly the same or at least stable for a number of days in a row with no spikes on the tuning days. Before you do any shooting at all let your bow rest outside to become acclimated to the conditions. Do not tune on days that have large temp drops or rises as conditions will change rapidly. It does not matter if it is sunny or overcast, just consistent! With no rain or fog!

For tuning you want the conditions to be near as perfect and as consistent as your tuning itself.

I know I have not eluded to any hardware or mechanical issues here, I have only brought the issue of shooting and bow conditions which play a very relative part while doing any sort of tuning outdoors/indoors, under adverse conditions.

I also believe that cam lean should be near as straight as possible at full draw and not matter at rest. At least split the differences.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

hey guys  thank you all for having the patience with me.

Today, I checked my lean at full draw (my father took the picture). It is still a bit \, but only just a bit. I think this will be a good point to start paper tuning, what do you think?

And the second thing I found out about the fishtailing is: if I put more attention into pulling more into the wall, the fishtailing is gone. Does that make any sense?

Here is also a photo of my form, any comments are appreciated. When I see this pictures now, I think draw length is 1/2 inch too long....but to be honest, I really feel comfortable (but who knows how I will feel with 1/2 shorter)


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

sorry for the repost, but it is really awesome what I self can see just by adding lines oh my god.

Am I right saying that nockpoint is too low? (or rest too high)


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

huezzn, forget about the nocking point for now--you have a lot of other things going on here. 

Getting back to the cam lean, you're torquing the bow quite a lot to the left with your bow hand--that is giving you what appears to be left cam lean at full draw. I would not be surprised if the fishtailing you saw was caused by vane contact due to the amount of bow hand-induced torque. Try to not grip the bow; instead have the handle resting on the left thumb pad with your fingers relaxed in a gentle curve and angled about 45 degrees from the riser. The pull from the string will keep the bow in place on your hand--no need to actively grip it. Also, your wrist sling is way too tight and is contributing to this. Finally, your bow elbow looks like it is locked out--straight is great, but fully locked out adds a lot of tension to the front end.

Yes, your draw length is also very long--once you straighten your body, it'll probably be about 1" too long; maybe even a little more.

You're standing like a cork screw--your left foot appears to be parallel to the target, but your right foot and hips are swinging to the right of it while your upper body is pivoted around to the left. You should work on getting everything in a straight line from the ground all the way to the top of your head. 

Remember, when getting to full draw, bring the string to your face instead of dropping your head/face toward the string to line up the peep.

Your left (draw) shoulder is also very high, but this may be caused by the cork screwing your body is doing. That's enough for now....:wink:


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

hi,

it is 20:48 here in Austria, tommorrow, it will be a big archery-day 

I will try to remember everything you said, will keep you up to date! thanks guys


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

If I may add a bit here. Maybe this can help you.

It is my personal experience that arrows that are fletched with different colored veins can create an ILLUSION of corkscrewing at distance. In reality its the light colored vein making the arrow appear to be fishtailing.
At distance the veins should have already compensated for imperfections. (baring crosswinds)

It actually could be just an optical illusion.

I have one set of shafts that made me go nuts. (Green Hen veins, white cock vein)


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## RLtarget (Dec 6, 2008)

could be nock fit, try a Large Groove G nock.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

I will try that too! Sorry it took a long time...but here is my form.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

any comments? anchor too low? DL?

I am thinking about the idea to make dl even 1/2 inch shorter, make the peep higher and take the corner of my mouth as a 2nd anchor (because then I can't touch with the nose I guess). what do you think? does that make sense?


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

I meant anchor too high, sorry.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

You cannot effectively work on your anchor until you first:
1) Correct your draw length. It is way (like maybe 1+") too long
2) Learn to stand straight without twisting your body


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanks again!

wow, I am really far away from the wingspan/2,5 calculated then, but I trust you and will shorten it!
Will post pics as soon as possible.


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## criss-p-bacon (Sep 5, 2013)

as above said..never ,mind the arrows and flight right now. your draw length is waaay long. your leaning on your forward leg a bit much, makes your hips swing forward, that may correct with a proper draw length to not push the release arm back to far...makes you stand slightly awkward


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## criss-p-bacon (Sep 5, 2013)

and never mind trying to touch nose to string..we cant all do that, we arent all shaped alike to do so


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

yeah maybe it's also because I shot a 32 ata bow. I allways find myself open my mouth, so that I can have the string in the corner of my mouth....I will shorten it 1 inch. I will come back


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## criss-p-bacon (Sep 5, 2013)

just adjust and set 1 thing at a time. do your draw first, then move to the next anchor or adjustment needed.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

so, got some new pictures (sorry for the bad light, but I come home late everyday, so I only have this 

I shortened dl at 1 inch. the biggest problem i found myself is my release arm. I can't get it straight. Longer loop? Am I improving?

I really appreciate every comment and help.


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## huezzn (Aug 19, 2013)

I am getting really mad right now.....on the picture above, my draw length AMO is 27 inch.

but on this picture here, if I am doing it with a loop string only, I have 28,75 real draw length (so I guess amo around 30). I don't know what to do....((((((


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## criss-p-bacon (Sep 5, 2013)

your over extending your bow arm when you hold the bow and not when you just reach for measuring that draw with no bow....rotate that bow elbow outwards. will naturaly bring that elbow out some..i see alot of string slaps with the arm hyper extended like that. measuring with no bow isnt helping you, just making it more confusing id say
if you cant get the release elbow down a bit then yes add to the loop...feet a touch more apart to....in that pic..front foot should be about on the line of your flooring, and rt foot as is


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