# Finding the perfect DL



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that's kind of a double-sided question......
draw length, specific to the ease and comfort of your release execution has little impact on your follow through, if your follow through is good. and your follow through will be good, if your draw length is anatomically correct, providing your form is good.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Let me ask it another way...........

How much expansion is created when you release your arrow? Fair question?

I realize there are several ways to create expansion. But, let's not complicate things any more than we have to. In my mind, it's a pretty simple question.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

no more simple or complicated than the importance of establishing the exactly correct draw length. the problem is that much of this subject matter, cannot be looked at in an individual context. these issues are so intertwined and overlapping, that one aspect firmly influences another.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Which is why I asked YOU (for yours).

If your static DL is 29".....how much expansion do you think (or know...to give you credit - where due) is created before your arrow is sent down range?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

uncomfortable as in what? Too long should give funky feelings. Too short is nothing but compensation on your part as in consistent anchor paramount, bow arm adjusts.

One target, two bows, same arrow, 20 yards, score - 398/400. One, 28 1/2" draw and one 28 1/4" draw.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> Too long should give funky feelings.


Well, that's as good as anything I could come up with


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I would say that your expansion is what it is. the "amount of expansion" is based on the setting of your draw length in relation to your anatomical limits of motion (range of motion), where the shorter your draw length is set, the greater your expansion will be and vice-verse. obviously, too short a draw length detracts from good form, just as meaningfully, as too long a draw length will. either end of the spectrum, or any where in-between, will influence the amount of expansion you get. 
where form comes into play, is that your form is dependent on draw length, as well as other elements. when the form is off, the entire shot execution is off, and that will influence the quality of your shooting.
you see, there is a large amount of over lapping co-dependence within this entire issue and it cannot be looked at, with an individual "eye", without considering several peripheral issues that are reactive to any one element.
bottom line is simply that some aspects of archery just cannot be singularly simple and independent.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Ron....if you don't want to give me an answer, that's fine. No hard feelings.

I asked you how much expansion was in YOUR shot. There can be no wrong answer......sans the lack of one.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

GIVE the loop length a try helps with follow through


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there can be no right answer as well...... and I did answer your question....with " your expansion is what it is". do you expect someone to actually measure how much expansion they have ?.


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## Deputy Archer (Apr 12, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> uncomfortable as in what? Too long should give funky feelings. Too short is nothing but compensation on your part as in consistent anchor paramount, bow arm adjusts.
> 
> One target, two bows, same arrow, 20 yards, score - 398/400. One, 28 1/2" draw and one 28 1/4" draw.


Is it just me... Sure seems like I have seen this picture about 20 times.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Probably not everyone.

You may be surprised what the advanced performers in their respective sports know about their execution, though. 

If I asked "How much expansion/travel/etc... is required for your chosen method of firing your release", I'd expect I'd get different answers from different level archers. And, I'm betting many could tell me to the 1/8".

Ask a professional golfer the length, weight. dia. of grip, balance point, degrees of loft, lie angle........of his putter....and he'll know it off the top of his head. A 5 hcp? Probably not.

Like I said....no hard feelings.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

It depends some on your bow. It depends some on your shot execution style. 

Breaking that down. On the bow. If you have limb stops and your cams are timed correctly, you won't see much or any movement because of the solid contact. You may get some stretch from fibers in your d loop, or stretch from the cable and strings elongating, but that's a different matter. Let's say you have cable stops. Then you'll have the opportunity to have more movement. That movement depends a lot on how you shoot. 

Execution style. When you execute if you are a pull hard and pull through person, you may see the point of where you start at move anywhere from 1/16-1/4 of an inch, with the 1/4 being excessive. 

For myself personally when I am setting up my bow's draw length on my current bow I know by trial and error I'll set the bow up for the string to just touch my nose and as I pull through the shot how I do, it'll stay pretty stagnant against my nose, but if I start getting too much pressure I know for myself that something's off. Also, when I set up my d-loop and play with different lengths for float and shot execution reactions, I have been able to change the setting 1/16 of an inch and feel a difference. Meaning, if I set my loop up at 15/16 of an inch, at full draw I'll feel great and as I pull through my shot to execute I'll stay feeling great till the end. But, if I set my loop at 1 inch long, at full draw I'll feel about the same as I would right before my shot released, possibly a little longer, but, as I start to execute I'll feel much too long and have issues there. 

So for me and my shot and my bow, I'm seeing that 1/32, 1/16 of an inch makes a difference because of the amount of movement, or expansion, I am having as I execute.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been struggling with this same thing all winter mentally since I shortened my draw length a little and found to me is my best feeling draw length ever, problem is that just before I changed it I had shot my first 300 29x vegas round and had the best indoor shooting month of my life. Now I haven't sucked and in fact I love the shooting that I am seeing from myself and I think it is more the change in my time spent on the indoor range that isn't allowing me to see that kind of shooting right now.

Here is another way to look at this issue:

I believe that most people bottom out their suspension when they are shooting way to early, in fact I think most people bottom out their suspension as they come to anchor this means that they are resting on their rubber suspension stops. Now for them to fire their bow they must compress into the suspension stops and compress them but the problem is that all of the good suspension travel in their system was totally wasted because their draw length and d-loop length are wrong and they drew their bow back to anchor passing it up. I know for a fact that when you do this the sensation of your percieved effort especially in your back tension muscles is huge and you feel like you are really squeezing them and you are correct, problem is that you are squeezing into your suspension stops and there is no where to go.

This is why being a compact shooter is so very important and that doesn't mean that you have to be overly compact because it has similar problems also but by simply having the goal of going to the shooting range and doing nothing but twisting your bow string until you shorten the draw length just enough that as you come to anchor your suspension isn't bottomed out and has some good travel left in it. 

Now here is the important part, I am learning how to use back tension to my advantage and the key is that when you come to anchor and you hit the wall your suspension should still have some travel left and now you squeeze your back tension muscles and this pulls your release into the wall and now you have tension on the wall that will help with your execution and it also makes your float stronger and it helps you not drop out the bottom, but you must not be bottomed out yet. There must still exist a little amount of suspension left so that as you run your firing engine your body can use that remaining suspension to be perfectly lined up with the arrow and also execute the firing engine and the bow fires when things are absolutely perfect. More than likely you want the bow to fire about the time your body touches its suspension stops and that is where things are perfectly lined up.

Like I said most people look good at anchor when looking at their shooting form but the problem is that they are already bottomed out and that is why everything is so perfectly straight and if they were actually shooting the shot they have no suspension left to do the job. This is what I spend a day or so experimenting with this winter and I found a perfect setting. Sure i had some awesome shooting when I was bottomed out a little but the problem with being bottomed out is that you find yourself standing there and the hinge wont fire especially during competitions. Getting set up correctly is the key.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

^ well said Padgett. Well said, good analogies. 

He's writting about being a dynamic shooter. John Dudley has talked about this for a long time now too. Giving yourself the room to allow your body movement and giving yourself a dynamic shot will allow you better results. You will work your shot around trusting the float you are having on target and instead working on a clean repeatable execution to give you the down range results you are wanting.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> Like I said most people look good at anchor when looking at their shooting form but the problem is that they are already bottomed out and that is why everything is so perfectly straight and if they were actually shooting the shot they have no suspension left to do the job.


^^This is where I think I am.



> Now here is the important part, I am learning how to use back tension to my advantage and the key is that when you come to anchor and you hit the wall your suspension should still have some travel left and *now you squeeze your back tension muscles and this pulls your release into the wall and now you have tension on the wall that will help with your execution and it also makes your float stronger and it helps you not drop out the bottom, but you must not be bottomed out yet*.


Well, on your recommendation, I bought my first hinge (the one you recommended). I'm liking it, and decided to try it on my own (so that I would have no pre-conceived notions). I learned pretty quickly the part about moving my thumb off the post and getting the release in my fingers. But, I was already....basically bottomed out (to use your term). 

Re: the second passage of yours I quoted......isn't that moment in time (the bolded part) when I should (ideally) hear the click?

I appreciate the responses, guys.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, this is one of the things that I have ignored for a long time. I listened to so many top shooters say that you should be doing it but I never spent one minute considering it. Nuts and bolts is really big on draw length and using it to find your strongest scoring and he also uses it to help bare shaft tune. I have always had a problem with him insisting that proper draw length had to be present to bare shaft tune because all three of my bows had slightly different draw lengths and I tuned them to all have perfect bare shaft performance. For this reason I never really focused on it but as I do with the things that I keep hearing I went ahead and did the effort to actually find my optimal draw length and within few minutes I had found a setting that really did make a difference in the ways I mentioned above.

To me the better I get I am finding that I can shoot good with all kinds of little issues in my form and mental approaches and set up and firing methods and that success has caused me to be happy with my shooting and find ways to justify ignoring things that would send me to another level. I think for me that going to the asa shoots and the iowa pro am and being next to reo and jesse and chance and levi and the other pro shooters made me realize that they are just guys like me and there is no reason that I can't shoot on their level. The moment I made those decisions I started tackling all of these little issues that I knew that I had and needed to address and eliminate them from my shooting forever. Go figure that within weeks I started seeing the shooting that I had only dreamed of having.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

JV NC said:


> My static DL feels great. But, at that length, expansion feels like I'm getting uncomfortable.
> 
> Am I over-thinking this, or is the fact that DL is dynamic (in so much as is needed to create the release) enough where someone could notice this and be affected by it?


I've been learning/discovering this during this indoor season. When I anchored, my DL felt fantastic. Just that sweet locked in feeling. However, I pull pretty aggressively with the dreaded back tension and realized I was overdrawing the bow as I executed the shot (hinge). As the release broke, I was too stretched out and it was causing some left misses (I'm LH). I added limb stops to my bow and shortened the DL by 1/16" and the shot is breaking so pure right now. 

I think the combination of the limb stops and shortened DL has cleaned up my release big time.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> It depends some on your bow. It depends some on your shot execution style.
> 
> Breaking that down. On the bow. If you have limb stops and your cams are timed correctly, you won't see much or any movement because of the solid contact. You may get some stretch from fibers in your d loop, or stretch from the cable and strings elongating, but that's a different matter. Let's say you have cable stops. Then you'll have the opportunity to have more movement. That movement depends a lot on how you shoot.
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

^^Great to hear, Ned.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

When to click? How to get to click? 

Well to me you just have to have one thing as your requirement when it comes to when to click, you must click before you start aiming. As long as you click before starting your aiming I think you are good to go but to me there are two types of shooters. Guys who sit in the valley and are just touching the wall and guys who use back tension to put tension on the system, if you are a guy that is just sitting in the valley as long as you click before you start aiming you are good to go but if you are a guy that pre loads a set amount of tension into the wall then I would come to click right as that tension is finishing. I wouldn't want to come to click and then bring my back tension up to its correct amount and then run my engine. I would come to anchor and as I bring up my back tension I would release my thumb peg and come to click at the same time I finish that pre load and then I can transition into running my engine as I float on the target.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

JV NC said:


> Probably not everyone.
> 
> You may be surprised what the advanced performers in their respective sports know about their execution, though.
> 
> ...


 those elements are physical and mechanical dimensions of a golf club, that are easily measureable and are hard, well defined dimensions. like the draw length and weight, brace height, ATA and string lengths of a bow....physical hard dimensions, that can be measured.
your expansion is arbitrary, and will change from day to day, and even shot to shot, and is hardly measureable. I very highly doubt, any pro concerns himself with the amount of expansion he gets, beyond the existence/assurance of it being part of his shot as decent follow through,...certainly not to the extent that he would know to the 1/8 inch, how much he gets.....that ridiculous....I think you are confused.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

How to get to click?

This is a thought that I haven't really put out there in a while but I really think it has worth so here it is. Not only does your draw length have a huge impact on how much easily generated hinge rotation can exist but your hand can be doing the same thing. Your hand can either work with you or against you, if you come to anchor and you rotate your hinge a long ways to get to your click you have lost all of that finger rotation that could have helped you during the firing engine. Second situtation which is even worse is if you are a pure back tension guy and you use some of your back tension to rotate your system to get to click. Third is coming to anchor and yielding your hand to get to your click.

All three of these methods for getting to your click are working against you and you are using valuable resourses to do a job that can be done without losing any of them. In fact if you learn to set your hinge up correctly you will actually find that you can amplify your firing engine and reduce the perception of effort to run it. The key is to draw the bow with all fingers equally and come to anchor and then as you release the peg and give that holding pressure to the index finger the hinge clicks. This is a simple hinge setup issue that only takes 15 or so minutes to have a hinge that is set up perfectly, with this setup you don't have to rotate your fingers or yield the hand or generate any back tension to get to the click, you just release the thumb peg and it clicks. releasing the thumb peg is a job that we have to do anyway so releasing the thumb peg and then doing something else to get to the click is just a waste. 

The process is very straight forward and in my Hinge Setup Routine.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Deputy Archer said:


> Is it just me... Sure seems like I have seen this picture about 20 times.


4 times I believe. First posted 12/11/14. The Poster asked of draw length and it shows results of just right, 28 1/2" and a bit short 28 1/4".

For the Poster, one person noted he could tell .040" off draw length. I can't, but can feel 1/8" too long. I can deal with it, but longer and all feels wrong. Working at bow shop for 5 years I dealt with many draw lengths for different customers. One-on-one, yeah, I could get customers pretty darn close and twisted a few strings to get them there.

I can tell you feels good with me, but you, you know your anchor, you know your bow arm, you should feel your back muscles, you should know your bow fit. Uncomfortable for you could be a matter of the 1/8" too long I feel....

Add or subtract 4 twists to your bow string. Length or shorten your d-loop. Want to move more, the ratio normally is 1 to 3 by nuts&bolts and 1 to 4 by M&R Bow Strings. 1 twist of cables equals 3 or 4 twists of the bow string. With the aid of M&R Bowstrings and nuts&bolts I took 2" out of the draw length to get what I wanted and then had new strings built.
How far can you rotate cams? A bunch. Here's a pic by nuts&bolts.


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## petesake (Jan 31, 2015)

JV NC said:


> My static DL feels great. But, at that length, expansion feels like I'm getting uncomfortable.
> 
> Am I over-thinking this, or is the fact that DL is dynamic (in so much as is needed to create the release) enough where someone could notice this and be affected by it?


 Going out on a limb and will get rocks thrown at me for this. Yea your over thinking it a bit .
Getting within a 1/4 - 1/8 of an inch should do the trick. Like 99% of everything else consistency is king in archery.
Fine tuning your draw length will come as you grow as an archer. Stance alone can eat up a 1/4 inch in a shooter. Just " get inside " the bow comfortably with the knowledge that small changes such as D loop , stance , draw length and even take on the release will effect how you not only shoot but also aim.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Great point on stance affecting your DL. It can be a great fine tuning tool.
Open your stance, and the bow will "feel" longer, Square it up, the bow with feel shorter.
I have done this myself to adjust to changes made in the DL of the bow.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Great stuff, guys.

On a side note, does this forum have an "ignore" feature?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

PM sent


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Gotcha. Thanks for the information.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

It's only my opinion.....but, I think there's a lot of folks who try shooting a hinge and put it down quickly.........saying "it's not for me". I also know that the manufacturers sell speed. Most archers are afraid to give up (_____") in Dl, because most (IMO) have been shooting a DL that's too long for most (if not all) of their lives (in their quest for speed).

If you start with a DL that's too long.....and try to shoot a hinge, you're gonna get frustrated. I have mods for my bow arriving on Thursday. If this works like I think it's going to, I will be shooting..................... better...soon. 

I appreciate all of your inputs.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

did you notice that despite your request .....no-one was able to come forth with any specific "measurement of expansion", in reply to your question ?.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> Add or subtract 4 twists to your bow string. Length or shorten your d-loop. Want to move more, the ratio normally is 1 to 3 by nuts&bolts and 1 to 4 by M&R Bow Strings. 1 twist of cables equals 3 or 4 twists of the bow string. With the aid of M&R Bowstrings and nuts&bolts I took 2" out of the draw length to get what I wanted and then had new strings built.


^^^This. I can't tell you how far I expand, I don't even know how to gauge it. 
If I don't feel comfortable and my hold is not right, I measure dl on a draw board, measure d-loop length and twist or retie until I feel good. 
Bareshafting is a great form and dl practice. If you can't slap shafts at 20yds, then add or subtract a twist or work on release consistency (assuming cam lean and center shot are in the ballpark).


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly, although not quite so exaggerated, I need to arrive at a draw length that is sometimes as delicate as a twist or two of the bow string , before everything feels "right". 
as I've said before, the more developed you shot and release execution is, the more specific it gets to the draw length needing to be exactly what it should be, in order to obtain that "everything feels right" condition.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> If I don't feel comfortable and my hold is not right, I measure dl on a draw board, measure d-loop length and twist or retie until I feel good.


So, you know 27-7/8" is "bad"-- 28-1/8" is "bad".....and 28" is "good"? (for example)

Appreciate the input.

That's what I was asking, when I asked the original question........



> My static DL feels great. But, at that length, expansion feels like I'm getting uncomfortable.
> 
> Am I over-thinking this, or is the fact that DL is dynamic (in so much as is needed to create the release) enough where someone could notice this and be affected by it?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

JV NC said:


> Let me ask it another way...........
> 
> How much expansion is created when you release your arrow? Fair question?
> 
> I realize there are several ways to create expansion. But, let's not complicate things any more than we have to. In my mind, it's a pretty simple question.


At my level, which is currently mostly able to keep it in the gold at 20 yards (mostly), I'd call the actual expansion somewhere around 1/8". That's from the release of the safety till the release fires. When I shot Oly recurve, tho, it was usually more than that because well, I was frankly kind of lousy at oly recurve. I never got to that 1 or 2mm after anchor level lol....

It's definitely a small amount for me, so I start off much closer to being in line to begin with. As I pull through the shot I hopefully am fully in line by the time the release goes off.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

JV NC said:


> It's only my opinion.....but, I think there's a lot of folks who try shooting a hinge and put it down quickly.........saying "it's not for me". I also know that the manufacturers sell speed. Most archers are afraid to give up (_____") in Dl, because most (IMO) have been shooting a DL that's too long for most (if not all) of their lives (in their quest for speed).
> 
> If you start with a DL that's too long.....and try to shoot a hinge, you're gonna get frustrated. I have mods for my bow arriving on Thursday. If this works like I think it's going to, I will be shooting..................... better...soon.
> 
> I appreciate all of your inputs.


Again, speaking from the experience of having shot with too long of a draw length forever.. lol... The discomfort, I've found, between too long and too short is relatively easy to pick out. If it's too long, for me:
- I get too far "inside" the bow. the main symptom is having to close up my stance more and more to get to the back wall. 
- I have to rotate my head more and more and.... to the left until my neck starts to hit its limit and ache....

It does make the hinge harder to use because you're already out of line to begin with. I shot at 29" for a while and found myself having to heave on it quite a bit more to get the shot to go off. I went down 1/2" not too long ago and that helped that quite a bit. I haven't finessed my DL since then, but it's starting to feel like it needs to come out a little bit. Waiting till I get a little stronger and a better shot routine before I "finalize" it.

LS


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

^^I'm getting ready to make the same adjustment.........for the same reason.

Thanks for your reply. I think my DL is fine for a static release. For a hinge....OR, to fire the thumb release as it should be fired, it's too long.

I've always heard you shrink as you get older. I just turned 50.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know, I read through this thread and I am going to do something. I am not going to get to do any indoor competitions this year anyway so all my indoor shooting is just training anyway so I am going to put my draw length back to the other setting that was a half inch longer than the current one. It is the setting that produced my best shooting ever experienced to date and I am going to see what it feels like and if my shooting improves back to where it was.

Right now I am really enjoying my current draw length and when I come to anchor I feel awesome, it just feels like my entire system fits like a glove and when I settle in on the x I am able to apply a little back tension to my system and I feel the squeeze into the wall and it is so sweet. 

What is really cool is my two bows are exactly the same so by changing my indoor bow to the slightly longer setting I should be able to compare how the two draw lengths feel, now here is the thing that I can't ignore. Performance Performance Performance, right now I am shooting good but I am dropping a couple x's every day out of the hundred or so shots that I take and in the other longer setting I was going days without missing a single x and sometimes a week.

I am a performance driven shooter weather it is a firing method or my draw length or anything else so I can't ignore something that gave me that kind of performance.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

JV NC said:


> ^^I'm getting ready to make the same adjustment.........for the same reason.
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I think my DL is fine for a static release. For a hinge....OR, to fire the thumb release as it should be fired, it's too long.
> 
> I've always heard you shrink as you get older. I just turned 50.


Yeah I'm 52 so I know what you mean... . Also, don't discount your holding weight, it can have a minute but noticeable affect on your DL. The heavier it is, it'll slightly compress your chest a little bit. 

A friend of mine from the old days shot a 50-something lb holding weight on his oly recurve, he reported that it compressed his chest almost 2" at full draw....

LS


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I think something is being oversimplified with DL.
For the most part, DL is how the bow fits the front of you.
Release size and loop size determine how the back half gets aligned.
Once I get the front half fitting properly, I don't want to mess with it much. 
If there is an issue with getting the release to fire due to a low or too far back elbow, I'm not going to compromise the fit of the front 1/2, I'll simply use a smaller loop.
Of course, there are limitations with that...the loop can only go so small. After that you can look at where the release sits in your hand, or even trying a release with a shorter head/neck. Only as a last resort would I change the DL of the bow if the back 1/2 was out of line. (provided the front 1/2 is good).
That doesn't mean I won't change DL to see how it affects the shot...perhaps what I thought was a proper fit on the front 1/2 wasn't quite perfect.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

my opinion is that it's the combined elements the make a bow "fit", not just the "back half, vs. the 'front half". drawlength, and loop length have to work together to produce the right form and the right nock location and anchor point. changing any one of these aspects, changes the others and each one individually, is co-dependent on the others. they all, of course, have to worked out individually, to arrive at a bow that fits comfortably and in is in good alignment to produce a good shot.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> I think something is being oversimplified with DL.
> For the most part, DL is how the bow fits the front of you.


If your DL is too long, how do you make the front fit?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that's why I say it's not about ""front" and "back". it's about both working together as one. too long a draw length is really about where the nock sits on your face. anything attatched to the string, such as a loop, is about where your anchor point lands, all three aspects have to be in the right location to produce a comfortable , good shooting bow. not just one or the other,....but all three combined.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

One rule of thumb that I've heard for years and years and years with regard to YOUR individual draw length is that "a little short is good, but ANY too long is NOT good, especially for outdoor field shooting."
I fully agree that your correct To anchor draw length is one that leaves you some room for "expansion", but not a lot.
If you read around enough, you will also find that for INDOOR shooting, some of the top shooters actually have a couple of draw length settings based upon the target face they will be shooting for a particular tournament event.
They tend to shoot a longer DL on the Vegas face by maybe 1/16" to 1/8" inch so that the float is smoother, but since they have so little room to "miss" the middle of the middle the smoother float allows them smaller misses. However they do NOT shoot "Short" at all, since the float is a bit faster and a slight error becomes a huge "miss" out of the baby-x that they can ill afford.
So, for the blue face they run a bit shorter because it is easiser to run a tad short and none long on that face due to the size of the x-ring as compared to the baby x on the Vegas face.
Myself, I have always elected NOT to play games with changing DL from one target face to another...but do stick with the "a little short is better than ANY too long."
Determining this is a tedious process, and you cannot tell from a round or two, and you cannot tell from trusting your memory. You have to pay attention to your float, yes, but logging 10 rounds in a row at each setting, dating the target faces and keeping them for later comparison is one approach used.
Then, you make a 1/16" or 1/8" adjustment, shoot another 10 rounds IN A ROW (not all at once, either), date and keep the target faces for future comparison. Then the next setting and so forth.
You will reach a point where it is obvious you've gone too far one way or the other, and now you are ready to REALLY compare and narrow down this "range."
So, you compare the 10 rounds of each setting and there normally is a pattern of change and you can see "tendencies" from one DL setting to another. When you get it down to the + or - 1/16" (1/8" range from zero to + 1/16" to - 1/16") then you can really get things to the nitty gritty.
Most shooters think 1/4" is "close enough"...well, IMHO, it is NOT "close enough."
Another subject is tuning your "stance to the drawlength (when you have it down to say 1/8" or less of ideal for YOU) and the drawlength to the stance." By moving the front foot forward or back parallel to the shooting line by 1/4", you can also help yourself immensely there, too. That is easily established by either shooting at horizontal spots 5 across, or by using my "Blind Bale" method; both are very, very effective in isolating those nuances with stance and draw length.
Do you even know for sure if your STANCE is the same from end to end or not? Make yourself a template and stick it to the floor for practice sessions!!! Place your feet onto the template the same every single time and within a couple of hundred shots, you will find that you will "automatically" place your feet the same. This is great for INDOORS on a flat surface! Outdoors, however is another story....
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

JV NC said:


> If your DL is too long, how do you make the front fit?


If the Bow's DL setting fits your front half, meaning your not leaning back, not tilting your head, string to the corner of the mouth and tip of the nose, back of arrow aligned with eye, bow arm straight or slightly bent etc. etc. What ever you look at on the front side, you don't want to change that just to get the back half squared away (elbow parallel or slightly higher than parallel to the arrow. Elbow not in front or in back of the plane of the string, good anchor point etc etc.).
If you want to change DL to see how it holds, or how your scores are affected, go for it. But if your having trouble getting the shot to fire, Look at loop/release length.

It is entirely possible to have the bow's DL perfect, but your overall DL too long/short because of the loop/release.

Taking it to the illogical extreme, would you take 4" off of your bow's DL, put on a 4" longer loop, and expect there to be no change?


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I was responding to the "over-simplifying" comment. 

If your bow's DL is too long, how do you make the front fit?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I guess I'm misunderstanding the question.
The way I see it is if the bow's DL is too long, the front can't/won't fit and you make the bow shorter.
How to tell if it's too long? Simply start with basic form. Is your head nice and straight? string to the corner of the mouth and tip of the nose (if possible....some short DL bows won't do that), bow arm straight (not locked) or slightly bent, depending on your school for thought. Is the back of arrow straight down from your eye? (room for interpretation on that one), bow shoulder down etc.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

JV NC said:


> I was responding to the "over-simplifying" comment.
> 
> If your bow's DL is too long, how do you make the front fit?


you change the DL til the fit is right by (well sort of, depends on how off your form is)
change the mod
or
specific length cam
or
cam setting
or
twist the cables/string
or
play with stance
or
play with form.

it will all depend on how much "off" you're talking about. It will also depend on how adjustable your form is.

For example, if you are off say 1/2" on Dl and you shoot with a purposEly bent bow arm...the 1/2" could come from simply having a naturally aligned bow arm.
but
say that bow arm is good and your stance is good etc...and all you need is 1/4"...play with thread length (less you have 1/4" mods/adjutment in cam).


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Related question:
What is the practical limit for length of D-loop? I seem to much prefer it very short and I know Alistar likes to set them up short, but does the come a point where it's too short? Or is it simply a question of clearing the nock?

-Grant


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

grantmac said:


> Related question:
> What is the practical limit for length of D-loop? I seem to much prefer it very short and I know Alistar likes to set them up short, but does the come a point where it's too short? Or is it simply a question of clearing the nock?
> 
> -Grant


Getting a loop too SHORT creates all sorts of repercussions:
1. Getting clearance for the release gate/hook to clear the back of the nock
2. Too short makes the angle of your release hand SUPER critical to string/loop torque, and this is very, very serious business.
3. Too Short will make for more of a chance of you bending your string around your face too much in order to get your "anchor" to feel right and to be consistent.
4. Too short and you are really creating string bend if you vary your hand position/angle even slightly. With today's higher letoff bows, it is extremely easy to induce torque onto the bow string by bending it or twisting it, and the d-loop being too short contributes a lot to this.

As far as too long? Better a bit long than any too short. Sure, you don't want to have a 2" long opening in your d-loop, but if you want to have the string more to the center of your chin (like a finger shooter), then you can go with a longer d-loop to accommodate that.

Personally, I won't shoot a d-loop with an opening shorter than 0.50 inches (1/2"). For that opening length, I start with a burned/tagged d-loop material of 3 7/8" and then stretch the d-loop to that inside length and measure with calipers to get it there.
For my normal d-loop opening of 5/8", I start with a d-loop material burned length of 4 1/8".
For 3/4" opening, you can use 4 1/4" of d-loop material (after ends are burned and tagged), tie the loop and then stretch it tight to the opening length of 3/4" (0.750).

The OPENING is the critical part, not the length of loop material you start with...and if you don't know that opening size, then you are NOT shooting the same length d-loop when you change yours...and changing a d-loop is imminent, just a matter of time.
Better to start with it a little LONG with regard to opening, and then "tune your anchor" by shortening it up little by little. YES! 1/16" can make a HUGE difference, too. Easier to do it this way than constantly pressing the bow and twising or untwisting string or cables or both!! Less stress on the bow, less risk of bending a riser, less risk of you screwing up and having the thing fly apart on you. Less risk of personal injury. 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## mxtuner1 (Mar 16, 2011)

Rick! said:


> ^^^This. I can't tell you how far I expand, I don't even know how to gauge it.
> If I don't feel comfortable and my hold is not right, I measure dl on a draw board, measure d-loop length and twist or retie until I feel good.
> Bareshafting is a great form and dl practice. If you can't slap shafts at 20yds, then add or subtract a twist or work on release consistency (assuming cam lean and center shot are in the ballpark).


Hey Rick.... Congrats on 1000th post! OK back to draw length!


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

grantmac said:


> Related question:
> What is the practical limit for length of D-loop? I seem to much prefer it very short and I know Alistar likes to set them up short, but does the come a point where it's too short? Or is it simply a question of clearing the nock?
> 
> -Grant


I have set them up just so I had enough room to clear the release head with no ill effects.
That release had a pivoting head so it wasn't torquing the string... I could see that being an issue, though I haven't experienced it myself.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm currently at 3/4" so sounds like I can take a little off. Shooting 65% LO on Spirals and a fairly horizontal hand position so not too easy to torque the string.

Follow-on question:
I currently have my tie-in nocking locators inside the D-loop and shooting G-nocks. This has the overall loop a bit wider than if it was set-up inside the locators. Does this have any effect either way?

-Grant


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

field14 said:


> Getting a loop too SHORT creates all sorts of repercussions:
> 1. Getting clearance for the release gate/hook to clear the back of the nock
> 2. Too short makes the angle of your release hand SUPER critical to string/loop torque, and this is very, very serious business.
> 3. Too Short will make for more of a chance of you bending your string around your face too much in order to get your "anchor" to feel right and to be consistent.
> ...


Outstanding post and it is exactly what I've learned as well. I see so many shooters ignoring this aspect, but it's critical to getting the correct OVERALL DL. Just tying on a short loop because that's what a loop should look like is really leaving yourself short, IMO.


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