# Hoyt vs ......



## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

I have been shooting Hoyt recurved for over 25 years now. I think it may be time for a brand change. 
Question...... what is the reason you shoot the brand of bow you do? 


D Pritchett
Long time archer
Shut up and shoot.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

Why would you want to change? Do you think you can improve your scores?

What kind of recurve are you talking about? Hunting, target, Olympic, etc?


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## Michael208 (Oct 25, 2017)

i love hoyt, they've just got some sweet shooting bows


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

SHPoet said:


> Why would you want to change? Do you think you can improve your scores?
> 
> What kind of recurve are you talking about? Hunting, target, Olympic, etc?


Been shooting Olympic since 92. Scores are pretty good. Some people swear by w&w, Hoyt, or various others. Just wondering what that reason is they shoot a certain brand over another 


D Pritchett
Long time archer
Shut up and shoot.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hey Doug, I've got no brand to which I'm loyal. I do prefer ILF because it gives me much more flexibility and choice. You're on lots of tournament lines and Tim Irvin is pretty close to you. He's got a bunch of late model stuff I'm sure he'd let you try. Hit him up.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Doug, you know I've always liked Hoyt risers, although lately I consider them to be over-engineered. I'm not a fan of how aggressively they promote/advertise their products, or control our national coaches, but it seems to work for them. 

The Gillo G1 I have now is the closest riser I've shot to our old Axis risers. It's very stiff and gives me that feeling of "launching jets off a carrier" that I always liked about the Axis. Plus it's simple, affordable, and has stabilizer bushings in all the right places. As for limbs, I am still running either my original SKY Jacks or Samick Masters - which I still consider the best limbs ever made. But I wouldn't hesitate to shoot wood core W&W limbs. I am not a foam core fan, but that is because at my draw length, I tend to really stress a limb beyond it's design limits - adding 10# to the marked weight of any limb I use. Wood holds up better to those demands in my experience. I've yet to have a wood core limb separate on me but I've had several foam core limbs (and have seen a lot of foam core limbs) separate. 

Reach out the Vittorio and see what he might do for you. They also have a line of small-diameter stabilizers. I'm set with my Doinkers, but their stabs look nice too.

Although I like W&W limbs, I would avoid their risers. I'm not a fan of carbon risers. Seen too many problems with them where the metal hardware has to mate up, stripped screws, etc. I had a couple of students with carbon W&W risers and they were a nightmare to adjust. More than once I had to gorilla the limbs out and re-tap limb bolt and alignment screw bushings, etc. No thanks.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

fitadude said:


> I have been shooting Hoyt recurved for over 25 years now. I think it may be time for a brand change.
> Question...... what is the reason you shoot the brand of bow you do?


 I choose bows based on how it feels and reacts to my shot. I’d leave the reasons out and try a bunch of different setups - your body/hands will know what it likes!


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Although I like W&W limbs, I would avoid their risers. I'm not a fan of carbon risers. Seen too many problems with them where the metal hardware has to mate up, stripped screws, etc. I had a couple of students with carbon W&W risers and they were a nightmare to adjust. More than once I had to gorilla the limbs out and re-tap limb bolt and alignment screw bushings, etc. No thanks.


I can’t speak for the W&W carbon risers, but the W&W aluminum risers are really nice! I love the reaction.


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## acy (Oct 22, 2011)

All high end equipment are capable of performing at the top level, so it's just a matter of which brand you put your trust in. I shoot W&W because I like their designs and that's what I see my favorite archers use. Of course, those archers are sponsored so they can likely shoot anything and still be great, but they definitely won't shoot something that they think would give them lower scores. So in the end it's all really subjective—try out different set ups, choose something based on your feeling, and then convince yourself what you're using is the best there is.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iArch said:


> I can’t speak for the W&W carbon risers, but the W&W aluminum risers are really nice! I love the reaction.


I agree on the W&W aluminums. Great risers. Sweet looking too.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

What exactly do you shoot now? What parts do you like and what would you change?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I forgot to mention Doug, that one consideration in going to Gillo was the grips. I could take my older Hoyt (Avalon/Axis style) grips with me. For folks like us, that's no small thing. Changing grip platforms is a royal PITA once you have finally settled on what works for your hands.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

fitadude said:


> Been shooting Olympic since 92. Scores are pretty good. Some people swear by w&w, Hoyt, or various others. Just wondering what that reason is they shoot a certain brand over another
> 
> 
> D Pritchett
> ...


Actually, I shoot Hoyt because they feel better in my hand than some of the others and they are made in America. Really, that is about it.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Although I like W&W limbs, I would avoid their risers. I'm not a fan of carbon risers. Seen too many problems with them where the metal hardware has to mate up, stripped screws, etc. I had a couple of students with carbon W&W risers and they were a nightmare to adjust. More than once I had to gorilla the limbs out and re-tap limb bolt and alignment screw bushings, etc. No thanks.


I own and have shot two of WW carbon risers (CXT & Max), and the quality has been exceptional, and I have had zero issues with the threaded inserts in either. I chose these because of weight, and couldn’t be happier.



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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

I shoot a Gillo G1 because my crack dealer-- oh sorry I meant Limbwalker, sold me on them. I keep shooting Gillo because it does what I need it to do for me in Barebow, and is also a killer olympic riser. Great price point too, and I like the folks running the company. In just my family we own 7 G1's between the 4 of us.

I also really liked the Sky TR-7, it felt good to shoot. Just all around pleasant.

If I had to choose another brand, I'd be hard pressed to choose Hoyt just because their advertising kind of puts me off. However their new riser looks pretty slick. W&W or CD Archery also looks good. As long as the riser does what I need it to do, I think it all comes down to looks. Whatever looks best shoots best.


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## Montalaar (Jan 26, 2008)

I shoot a Mybo Elite for basically three reasons:
1) Both Hoyt and W&W risers are just too expensive for what i think they deliver compared to other products. Mybo delivers the same adjustability and craftsmanship at a way lower price point.
2) I liked the design philosophy and the fact that it is a riser which actually stands out.
3) Having a product made in europe (at least for now) was a slight plus to me.

That said i would love to own a Hoyt GPX, but that seems to be as rare as the Martin Aurora i also was looking for over the last years.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

original winact


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> I agree on the W&W aluminums. Great risers. Sweet looking too.


would that include the SF Forged plus which I believe is also made by Win&Win??

BTW I started with Hoyt risers--which are great--then went to the PSE X-factor which I used exclusively for a long time as I liked their light over-all weight and responsiveness..

I've always wanted an Italian-made riser ever since I got rid of my Aurora because it was too heavy and since I also wanted to dabble in barebow I got the Spigarelli Explorer II complete with all the weights plus extra grips as it I can also be used for Olympic recurve..

I stopped using Hoyt limbs after the M1 as they started a bad reputation and switched to Win&Win, Samick and finally Borders..

sold my heavier limbs after a hiatus of more than 5 years and dropped down 8# so kept my 32# Border CXGs and got 26# Samick Athletes with 30# on my fingers..

will be concentrating mostly on indoors and shorter distances anyway from now on..


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

I started on a Hoyt many years ago. I shot the OG formula RX. Nothing wrong with the bow but Hoyt as a company lost my support. After receiving some bad limbs out of box and being told tough luck, I dropped them and explored other brands.

Borrowed my friends MK X10 riser for a while. Solid bow I'd recommend. I tried a PSE and was very underwhelmed. 

Later I was introduced to Uukha by a friend and really liked it, especially the limbs. Uukhas really have a unique feel to them that blows most other bows out of the water IMO. They are very fast and very smooth. Its hard to put into words what they feel like but my Upro with VX1000 limbs is far smoother and more forgiving than my old Hoyt. However I will say they are slightly more tricky to tune than other bows. Sadly as we have seen in another thread here, they are extraordinarily expensive.

In the past few weeks I purchased a Win&Win Nano TFT as well. So far it is very similar to my Uukha performance wise. Its heavier which I like and the hardware in the limb pockets is waaay beefier than any bow I have ever seen which I give W&W an A+ for. I dont know why more companies dont use bigger grub screws for the limb alignment. I also like how W&W pockets are enclosed to prevent limbs from flying out. You have to drop the limb bushing into a hole and then slide it down to assemble the bow which is pretty cool IMO. I dont have any Win&Win limbs yet though so I cant say much on how it shoots because I'm currently using Uukha limbs on my TFT.

If I had to pick a single brand to suggest to someone who was switching based on all around quality and performance to price ratio, I would say Win&Win. I think Uukha has the best performance but their cost is pretty high.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Although I like W&W limbs, I would avoid their risers. I'm not a fan of carbon risers. Seen too many problems with them where the metal hardware has to mate up, stripped screws, etc. I had a couple of students with carbon W&W risers and they were a nightmare to adjust. More than once I had to gorilla the limbs out and re-tap limb bolt and alignment screw bushings, etc. No thanks.


How long ago were these instances? I've seen a few TF Apecs and Xpert risers that had crooked bushings way back when but havent seen anything on the newer risers. The hardware in my TFT feels top notch and everything on it aligns perfectly so far.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> How long ago were these instances? I've seen a few TF Apecs and Xpert risers that had crooked bushings way back when but havent seen anything on the newer risers. The hardware in my TFT feels top notch and everything on it aligns perfectly so far.


About 7 years ago. I have always been less than impressed with W&W's limb alignment systems. They are overly complicated and not robust enough at the same time.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> They are overly complicated and not robust enough at the same time.


I dont follow, complicated how? It's just a dovetail block with grub screws like any other bow. Cant be any more complicated than those shim and dowel systems.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> I dont follow, complicated how? It's just a dovetail block with grub screws like any other bow. Cant be any more complicated than those shim and dowel systems.


It's still overly complicated for me compared to my SKY or Gillo risers. And honestly the Hoyt dowel/washer system was very simple and bulletproof, and it keeps people from screwing with their alignment all the time. LOL


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Gotta tell you John, I don’t think that statement reflects how easy the W&W alignment system is to use. It’s a pleasure to use and much less fiddly than messing around with washers. I’ve never had any issues with how robust the system is and as someone who has set up more bows than I care to count, I’d rather use he W&W system, hands down. The limbs stay on the bow throughout the entire alignment process. It saves time and hassle.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

It’s probably going to get even simpler.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

The alignment system on the INO CXT and Gillo are the same concept. And the CXT, Max and Gillo all follow the same concept of adjusting the alignment of the limbs. 


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## Jeffhaynes007 (Jul 4, 2011)

Like Hoyt


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Gotta tell you John, I don’t think that statement reflects how easy the W&W alignment system is to use. It’s a pleasure to use and much less fiddly than messing around with washers. I’ve never had any issues with how robust the system is and as someone who has set up more bows than I care to count, I’d rather use he W&W system, hands down. The limbs stay on the bow throughout the entire alignment process. It saves time and hassle.


They stay on the bow with my TR-7's and Gillo risers as well. 

Look, I see ways the W&W alignment system could be improved. I'm not saying it's BAD. Don't take it personally and don't feel any need to defend it for crying out loud. 

IMO if folks can't see the genius behind the Hoyt dowel/washer system, I'm totally fine with that too. One thing I knew when I used that system is that I never, ever had to worry about my limb alignment moving whatsoever. On a serious competition bow, that's very reassuring. 

erose, the W&W system and the TR-7/Gillo systems are not the same. And I'm not going to argue with you about that point. 

You'd think I called some of your dogs ugly or something. LOL


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Even my Uukha with its micro M4 limb alignment grub screws have never budged. Unsure what was wrong with the bows you tried.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There’s a little issue with the W&W system that made them redesign their limb alignment system. Archers have been adjusting their settings without unstringing, believing that the final adjustment was the correct one, only realize that it has changed after that, exactly when and how, that is a mystery......except that it is not. 

It is well known in the coaching circle that you should unstring your bow for limb pocket adjustments. This is to unload residual stresses that occur during the adjustment. The unloaded stress changes the setting. Despite having an improved design, it is still a good practice to do that on the new generations of W&W risers.

Hard Lock Dowel systems necessitate the unloading of the limbs, making it appear that W&W risers and the like have an issue, when in fact the archers are the ones having issues.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> IMO if folks can't see the genius behind the Hoyt dowel/washer system, I'm totally fine with that too. One thing I knew when I used that system is that I never, ever had to worry about my limb alignment moving whatsoever. On a serious competition bow, that's very reassuring.
> 
> erose, the W&W system and the TR-7/Gillo systems are not the same. And I'm not going to argue with you about that point.
> 
> You'd think I called some of your dogs ugly or something. LOL


The dove tail system of the W&W has locking screws that jam against the adjustment screws. I’ve never had them come loose on either my CXT or my MAX. I did have them come loose on my Gillo, and even then my alignment didn’t change. 

I do own a Gillo riser, and yes the Gillo and the CXT use the same alignment method. The dove tail is designed differently, but both use set screws on each side of the dove tail to adjust and lock in the dove tail.

I cannot attest to the Hoyt, because I’ve never owned one, so I have no comment on their system of alignment.

Concerning the dogs ugly comment, I’m just correcting a false statement. Nothing personal on this side. For whatever reason it seems among archers that feelings are fragile, and I’m not sure why that is. Why would anyone not want to be corrected when they are wrong, I have no idea. 

If anyone would like, I would be more than happy to post pictures.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

erose said:


> The dove tail system of the W&W has locking screws that jam against the adjustment screws. I’ve never had them come loose on either my CXT or my MAX. I did have them come loose on my Gillo, and even then my alignment didn’t change.
> 
> I do own a Gillo riser, and yes the Gillo and the CXT use the same alignment method. The dove tail is designed differently, but both use set screws on each side of the dove tail to adjust and lock in the dove tail.
> 
> ...


sigh...

I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong. However, you just admitted that the dovetail was different. But then insist it's the same. LOL 

Carry on.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> Even my Uukha with its micro M4 limb alignment grub screws have never budged. Unsure what was wrong with the bows you tried.


Uh, okay. 

I'm finding this thread now hilarious. I post one comment about not caring for the W&W alignment system - based on the experience I had with several students' bows - and people start losing their minds. 

Ah good 'ol AT for ya'


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Ok ok.....how about we all forget about this BS, and I come up with a better and more reliable (if there is a “more reliable”) system? Then maybe this discussion could be made redundant?


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Uh, okay.
> 
> I'm finding this thread now hilarious. I post one comment about not caring for the W&W alignment system - based on the experience I had with several students' bows - and people start losing their minds.
> 
> Ah good 'ol AT for ya'


I'm not loosing my mind. I'm just stating your experiences with said adjustment systems is uncharacteristic and I cant understand how they ever moved. Either the locking screws didn't get tightened or you got a defect riser.


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Uh, okay.
> 
> I'm finding this thread now hilarious. I post one comment about not caring for the W&W alignment system - based on the experience I had with several students' bows - and people start losing their minds.
> 
> Ah good 'ol AT for ya'


LOL you think this was posted on the main section of AT not here where 99.9% of the people are chill & not fan boys


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

theminoritydude said:


> Ok ok.....how about we all forget about this BS, and I come up with a better and more reliable (if there is a “more reliable”) system? Then maybe this discussion could be made redundant?


Ive seen a few risers that have the dovetail milled directly into the riser and instead have an eccentric tiller bolt that adjusts alignment. I could see how that would be advantageous because the tiller bolt is locked down by a large screw and is unlikely to move. Adjustments can be made while the bow is strung and its one object controlling the movement rather than two.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

rjbishop said:


> Ive seen a few risers that have the dovetail milled directly into the riser and instead have an eccentric tiller bolt that adjusts alignment. I could see how that would be advantageous because the tiller bolt is locked down by a large screw and is unlikely to move. Adjustments can be made while the bow is strung and its one object controlling the movement rather than two.


It's still not idiot proof. Idiot proofing, is the right way.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> I'm not loosing my mind. I'm just stating your experiences with said adjustment systems is uncharacteristic and I cant understand how they ever moved. Either the locking screws didn't get tightened or you got a defect riser.


Did I ever say they moved?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Robert43 said:


> LOL you think this was posted on the main section of AT not here where 99.9% of the people are chill & not fan boys


Seriously


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> Ive seen a few risers that have the dovetail milled directly into the riser and instead have an eccentric tiller bolt that adjusts alignment. I could see how that would be advantageous because the tiller bolt is locked down by a large screw and is unlikely to move. Adjustments can be made while the bow is strung and its one object controlling the movement rather than two.


That system (previously employed by W&W) was a nightmare to adjust. No thanks. There is a reason they got away from it.

The best, (by far) alignment system that incorporated a milled dovetail and moving limb bolt is the Bernardini system. It is the pinnacle of limb alignment systems IMO.


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## Robert43 (Aug 2, 2004)

theminoritydude said:


> It's still not idiot proof. Idiot proofing, is the right way.


Only way to make something idiot proof is to have no adjustments


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Robert43 said:


> Only way to make something idiot proof is to have no adjustments


Ala the BEST risers.  

And believe it or not, they worked great.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Robert43 said:


> Only way to make something idiot proof is to have no adjustments


We've been there. Then, someone decided that we needed to adjust something.

You see where this is going?


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> Did I ever say they moved?


You said you find W&W pockets to not be robust enough and how prefer the reassurance of the Hoyt dowel system. That implies you feel other types move or fail in some form or another, but maybe I'm misunderstanding here.


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## huckduck (Nov 24, 2014)

rjbishop said:


> You said you find W&W pockets to not be robust enough and how prefer the reassurance of the Hoyt dowel system. That implies you feel other types move or fail in some form or another, but maybe I'm misunderstanding here.


There is a *possibility* of it moving. Does not mean it will, but piece of mind is a valuable thing. 

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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

Whenever you ‘idiot proof’ something, they just go along and invent a better idiot...


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> sigh...
> 
> I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong. However, you just admitted that the dovetail was different. But then insist it's the same. LOL
> 
> Carry on.


The concept is the same, the design is not. It is just as easy to adjust the CXT and MAX as it is the GILLO. And you use the exact same method with all three. The only difference is the size Allen key you need.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Robert43 said:


> LOL you think this was posted on the main section of AT not here where 99.9% of the people are chill & not fan boys


It has nothing to do with being fan boys of anything. It has to do with simple facts nothing more. 

AT is one of the primary sources of information for OR and BB. One should hope that when it comes to facts (not talking opinions here) that a information seeker will not come here and leave with false info.

As a information seeker myself, I don’t want that experience.


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## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

Wow, did this thread go off topic. I was asking why you like the brand of bow you shoot. Maybe I should never ask an opinion question on this forum again. 


D Pritchett
The Loft Archery Club 
Former World Team Member
Nfaa National Champion
#xswings #blackmambaarchery #ramrods #roguebowstrings


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

No!!! Don’t go.......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rjbishop said:


> You said you find W&W pockets to not be robust enough and how prefer the reassurance of the Hoyt dowel system. That implies you feel other types move or fail in some form or another, but maybe I'm misunderstanding here.


I don't recall saying W&W pockets weren't robust enough. And I'm still wondering why so many people care what I think about the W&W system. Clearly it works fine for a lot of people. If it works for you, great! We all have our preferences.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

fitadude said:


> Wow, did this thread go off topic. I was asking why you like the brand of bow you shoot. Maybe I should never ask an opinion question on this forum again.
> 
> 
> D Pritchett
> ...


And I still can't understand why it did. But it's another example of how poor some people's reading comprehension can be. Seems to be the case on most internet forums these days. Person A says "x" and person B reads it as "y" and responds to "y" when it had nothing to do with the OP's question in the first place, if they even bother to read the OP's question anymore. LOL

Your questions are always welcome with me, at least. I'm always happy to share my personal experience, and I suppose others are free to disagree although I have never figure out how one can disagree with another's personal experience. LOL


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I am surprised at the comment made about how poor quality the W&W carbon risers are made. I have found just the opposite. One of the biggest differences between a Hoyt and a W&W is how the W&W is ready to shoot just out of the box while it takes on average about 3 hours to set the Hoyt up. This has been the standard for years. I have shot the carbon W&W bows since the original INNO's and have yet to run into problems as stated. There are some better feeling carbon risers than others, but quality and durability are the reason W&W has taken over the number 1 position in the international events. The others, Gillo, Uukka, MK are probably fine at this moment until they will have to mass produce them. That is when you find out the big differences. Craftsmanship degrades as more and more risers are demanded. However, W&W has stayed up on top working hard at making a difference. And by the way, they are still working on making products more advanced. You will not believe what they will be doing in a year or two. 

One final thought about what bow to get. Make sure you can get accessories, replacement parts, etc. in a timely manner. Some of these companies could take some time because of too few resellers.


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Back to the topic, 

Doug, most bows today will likely out shoot all of us. Its all just feel. From trying all the brands that I have, I would recommend Uukha, Win&Win, and MK Archery. Since you're coming from an aluminum bow, the MK or an aluminum W&W might work out better for you. All Uukha makes is carbon bows so it may be too radical of a change. However I believe they make the best limbs. Maybe try and seek out others in your area with other brands and see if they will let you try them out.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

fitadude said:


> Wow, did this thread go off topic. I was asking why you like the brand of bow you shoot. Maybe I should never ask an opinion question on this forum again.
> 
> 
> D Pritchett
> ...


Why not? Every thread unless it is a poor question, has a chance to go off in a different direction. Its part of what works in forums. There is a lot of good information that comes from threads going off topic.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Rick McKinney said:


> One of the biggest differences between a Hoyt and a W&W is how the W&W is ready to shoot just out of the box while it takes on average about 3 hours to set the Hoyt up.


Since we’re digressing, what’s so complicated about a Hoyt that it takes 3 hours more to set up than another brand?

Now, I haven’t personally shot or dealt much with Olympic bows since the GM so I haven’t looked at a recent Hoyt riser closely, but I can’t see what would be so complicated.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

I currently own a Spigarelli 2001 VBS (20 years), a Gillo G1L, and a Best Zenit. It's my second Best Zenit because the first one was stolen out of my house by drug-addict gang members who probably couldn't find anyone who would give them even $20 for my fully set up bow that cost me $2500 CAD to build. I like Italian risers because I like the way they are balanced, they are great quality, and they look good. And I'm a huge fan of Michele Frangilli so I like to shoot whatever he has used or is using. I use Win and Win and Fivics limbs because they've worked well for me and... Frangilli uses them. My favorite bow thus far is the Spigarelli 2001 with original Winact limbs that I bought because that was what Michele was using in the late 1990's. Such a quiet, efficient bow. Next riser will be a Gillo GQ25L probably in single color blue. But those dual color GQ's look pretty sweet, especially in gold and black. That would be a pretty flashy change for me because my other bows have been black (2001), grey (G1L), and blue (Zenit.) I'm not sure about the dual color turquoise GQ because in pictures it looks like a nice royal blue (royal blue is my favorite color) but if it's actually turquoise in real life I wouldn't be into that because I kinda hate turquoise. Anyhoo, I hope everybody is having a peaceful day and gets a chance to do a little shooting/meditating. 

PS, the three gang members who stole my Zenit were all caught and convicted. For breaking into my house and stealing over $8000 worth of my favorite stuff one got one year, one got six months, and one got 4 months. The sentences are so short and vary because the Justice System in Canada is a complete joke due to our incompetent wimp judges.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I am surprised at the comment made about how poor quality the W&W carbon risers are made.


Who said that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Since we’re digressing, what’s so complicated about a Hoyt that it takes 3 hours more to set up than another brand?
> 
> Now, I haven’t personally shot or dealt much with Olympic bows since the GM so I haven’t looked at a recent Hoyt riser closely, but I can’t see what would be so complicated.


Stash, my experience setting up mine and my student's bows has been that it's not complicated. The most frustrating risers I've set up - all for my students - were W&W carbons from about 7 years ago. The issue was stripped screws and allen heads from the soft metal they used. And the alignment block didn't want to move smoothly. I can remember grinding noises more than once. I have also had quite a few archers who were not my students, bring their W&W risers to me for help, one of whom was a former RA that Rick would know pretty well. Once these bows were finally set up, they all shot really well and produced a very enjoyable shooting experience. 

Now, I haven't worked on a W&W riser in probably 3-4 years, so I have no idea what they are producing now or how it would compare to those I have worked on. I'm just offering my personal experience. And before anyone jumps on me, you can't tell me my experience wasn't valid. You have yours and I have mine. LOL 

W&W products are first rate products. So are Hoyt risers. I don't think I've ever steered anyone away from either but I know if I had to choose, I would put W&W limbs on a Hoyt riser and call it a day. Over the years, a lot of Korean shooters have agreed with this and have had great success with that combo (which I still believe is one reason -maybe not the ONLY reason, but one reason - the Formula system came about).


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Stan. The GM was the last riser they made that did not have problems. Most of you know that I traveled the world giving seminars and helping archers with their Hoyt bows. I had to bring an extra tool box to fix and repair the many problems the archers had. And just to be fair, the latest was with an archer a few months ago when he wanted me to help him set up his Hoyt. It took us some time to get the bow working. He also had purchased a W&W TFT and AFT. Both bows took less time combined to set up than the Hoyt. That was one of the things I marveled at when I started shooting W&W. The bow came ready to shoot. I was not used to that. Anyway, as John says, it is my own personal experience. You can take it as you want. 

The bottom line is since you have experience with the Hoyt, the other bows will be as easy if not easier to set up. Keep in mind of the price and availability of the product and you should have fun with whichever you choose. Some people like to be pioneers and shoot something different than the norm. That is good for those who are willing to reach out and figure out the issues of something new. Others want to purchase a sure thing that has been tested and proven over time. You will have to determine which person you are and which fits your personality.


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## Porthos (Oct 21, 2018)

i love hoyt there its just the way they look i love the feel


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Thanks for replying, Rick, but I still don’t understand exactly what the issues with Hoyts are. 

Are they regarding the tiller adjustments, and if so, is there a problem at the minimum setting or only if the adjustments are actually used?

Same question with the limb alignment, and also, why do bows NEED limb alignment adjustments anyways? Are the new risers and limbs so bad that the manufacturers can’t make them straight in the first place? 

What else is there that can go wrong with a riser?

I’m not trying to start an argument here. I seriously don’t know, and would appreciate clarification.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

No problems Stan. The tiller is a minor issue as well as brace height. The alignment is another story. We had to get the limbs aligned and yet still had to get the stabilizers aligned properly as well. This took time. I get the tiller and brace height, what I was most frustrated with the most and the length of time was mainly getting the limbs, riser, string and stabilizers set up just right. W&W's come out just right out of the box and if not, it takes a simple little tweak. That's all. I have my theories on why the riser is not just right but I really don't want to share that. They have excellent engineers who can figure that out.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

My pet topic.

I shall practice a little restraint this time.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick, did you feel it was always important to line up the stabilizers?

I did a lengthy write-up here several years ago about the idea of getting your bow "on plane," describing that getting limbs in alignment with one another was only the first step before getting them both on plane with the riser itself. A lot of people have been using the stabilizer as their reference for this but I don't have to tell you that not all stabilizer bushings are drilled and tapped straight, and certainly not all stabilizers are glued in straight, and then you have all the mating surfaces between the riser bushing and the long rod if a person uses a V-bar, etc... 

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. I can see the logic in the location of mass weight of the stabilizer system being the focus of string alignment, if that's what you were doing.

As for the newer Hoyt risers, since the 3D alignment system came out - I'm right there with you. I spent over an hour one day trying to help a JOAD dad help his Bowman daughter with the $1500 bow he just bought her. This was right after the new system came out. I finally had to leave, and he was no closer to alignment than when he started. He eventually returned that riser to Hoyt and they sent him a new one. That new system is way over-engineered IMO. But they gotta do something to keep selling bows, right?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Rick: thanks again for the reply.

Brace height has always been a concern with any bow, and it's just a part of tuning. Tiller, same thing, but something you play with to get a better tune for your own personal form. You would expect the adjustment to be easy, and lock down securely.

I don't know enough about these bows to understand what the fuss is about limb alignment. Unless the whole bow is messed up out of the factory, surely you can adjust for any slight deviation with the center-shot on the plunger?

I get the stabilizer thing, but also, I question if a slightly misaligned stabilizer is anything worse than a cosmetic annoyance. I know it would annoy the hell out of me, but it hardly affects the bow's ultimate function, which is accuracy.

But, I suppose if you're going to pay a week's salary on a riser, you should get close to perfection out of the box.


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## tim.long (Jul 4, 2015)

Rick McKinney said:


> ... yet still had to get the stabilizers aligned properly as well.


Are you shimming the stabilizers or something?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> That system (previously employed by W&W) was a nightmare to adjust. No thanks. There is a reason they got away from it.
> 
> The best, (by far) alignment system that incorporated a milled dovetail and moving limb bolt is the Bernardini system. It is the pinnacle of limb alignment systems IMO.


I believe PSE and a new manufacturer out of China have both used this system which is definitely heads above the rest.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

tim.long said:


> Are you shimming the stabilizers or something?


No. In order to get the stabilizers straight, the riser has to be in the correct plane. In order to correct this, you need to adjust the limbs to get the riser torque free and align the limbs at the same time. You can actually have your limbs aligned but the riser is slightly off to the right or left, thus making it look as though the stabilizers are crooked. That is not the case. The limbs are positioned off (although they look good using the Beiter limb gauges) they are not in the correct position.


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## ceratops (May 17, 2017)

Rick McKinney said:


> No. In order to get the stabilizers straight, the riser has to be in the correct plane. In order to correct this, you need to adjust the limbs to get the riser torque free and align the limbs at the same time. You can actually have your limbs aligned but the riser is slightly off to the right or left, thus making it look as though the stabilizers are crooked. That is not the case. The limbs are positioned off (although they look good using the Beiter limb gauges) they are not in the correct position.


How do you distinguish the situation where the stabilizer IS straight and LOOKS crooked, versus when the stabilizer actually IS crooked (e.g. bushing not straight in the riser, or stabilizer bolt not straight w.r.to stabilizer)? I mean -- it's not correct to just use the stabilizer to define the bow plane, is it?


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

acy said:


> I shoot W&W because that's what I see my favorite archers use.


If he uses this criteria, he'll be shooting a Fiberbow!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

ceratops said:


> How do you distinguish the situation where the stabilizer IS straight and LOOKS crooked, versus when the stabilizer actually IS crooked (e.g. bushing not straight in the riser, or stabilizer bolt not straight w.r.to stabilizer)? I mean -- it's not correct to just use the stabilizer to define the bow plane, is it?


No, it isn't. Many, if not most stabilizers, are not straight. Too many places where they can be off, from drilling the riser, to installing the bushing to tapping the bushing, to the bushing surface, to the extender surface, to the alignment of the extender, to the extender cap, to the V-bar surface, to the other V-bar surface, to the stabilizer base, to the stabilizer istelf, to the stabilizer end cap. I probably missed a few. LOL 

This is why I asked Rick the question about aligning the string plane with the "mass" of the stabilizer. Because the whole purpose of the stabilizer is to resist torque, there may be some logic in just aligning the string plane with the stabilizer weights and calling it a day, and not worrying so much about the plane of the riser. Provided the stabilizer isn't WAY off...

Granted, we're counting angels on the head of a pin now...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

grantmac said:


> I believe PSE and a new manufacturer out of China have both used this system which is definitely heads above the rest.


Meh, we all have our preferences I guess.


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## tim.long (Jul 4, 2015)

Rick McKinney said:


> No. In order to get the stabilizers straight, the riser has to be in the correct plane. In order to correct this, you need to adjust the limbs to get the riser torque free and align the limbs at the same time. You can actually have your limbs aligned but the riser is slightly off to the right or left, thus making it look as though the stabilizers are crooked. That is not the case. The limbs are positioned off (although they look good using the Beiter limb gauges) they are not in the correct position.


I would expect there to be fewer knobs to turn on most risers than what you would need to account for this properly.

I'd be interested to hear more about this, perhaps in a different thread.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tim.long said:


> I would expect there to be fewer knobs to turn on most risers than what you would need to account for this properly.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear more about this, perhaps in a different thread.


If you have any limb alignment system on your riser at all, that's all you need.

All Rick is describing is the process that was very clearly laid out in the Hoyt Avalon riser manual more than 20 years ago. It's exactly where I learned about achieving proper alignment for a recurve riser. I wonder, do people just not read the directions anymore, or do riser manufacturers not describe this process anymore, or both?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Meh, we all have our preferences I guess.


I'm talking about the Bernardini moving bolt system.


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## JimDE (Aug 3, 2008)

I guess I have been lucky or blessed.... I have owned 5 ILF risers with limb alignment adjustment capabilities and using the Beiter limb centering scales have yet to have to do my first centering adjustment. I hear all the discussion on this topic recheck my limbs they show centered and just scratch my head and put the stuff away and go shoot.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

nothing beats a straight riser with no alignment systems..

I had 2 Hoyt GMs, 2 Elans and 3 Matrixes and was fortunate that they were all straight..

I also had 5 PSE X-factors and never had any problems with alignment..

just lucky I guess..


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

ceratops said:


> How do you distinguish the situation where the stabilizer IS straight and LOOKS crooked, versus when the stabilizer actually IS crooked (e.g. bushing not straight in the riser, or stabilizer bolt not straight w.r.to stabilizer)? I mean -- it's not correct to just use the stabilizer to define the bow plane, is it?


As mentioned by limbwalker, there are so many coupling tolerancies involved in the entire system that you need reference tools to check each single part of the system to be able to decide were to work for alignement and how. Easiest way is to have reference parts, that means at basic level, one reference pair of limbs surely straight, one reference risers surely not twisted and surley with a proper insertion of the center bushing and one reference long rod surely straight. Or, simply swapping parts with some friends of your until you find the proper combination. Of course, makers have refeference tools to do same. 
As Rick says, Beiter gages are just an indication about one of the planes involved, can't tell the result by themselves only, also considering that limbs are not granted to be symmetric along their entire inner surface (so you need at least 3 pairs of gages to interpolate that plane only ...)


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## tooold (Jul 26, 2015)

I have to agree with Rick. I've been shooting for nearly 50 years and I've never had more problems setting up a bow than with my GMX. I've tried adjusting the shims, brace height and used a variety of different spines but my sight pin is still sticking out 75mm from the middle of the sight block. This can't be right - its like I'm aiming on the next target. Maybe my riser is twisted somehow, but its driving me nuts!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tooold said:


> I have to agree with Rick. I've been shooting for nearly 50 years and I've never had more problems setting up a bow than with my GMX. I've tried adjusting the shims, brace height and used a variety of different spines but my sight pin is still sticking out 75mm from the middle of the sight block. This can't be right - its like I'm aiming on the next target. Maybe my riser is twisted somehow, but its driving me nuts!!


Your riser might very well be twisted. 

The HDS with washers is tough for some folks to figure out. Even then, sometimes you can't get "perfect" alignment because all you have is the thickness of a single washer to work with. Personally, I found it very intuitive (if not slow to work with) and very reassuring as a competitor. I never worried about my alignment once.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

tooold said:


> I have to agree with Rick. I've been shooting for nearly 50 years and I've never had more problems setting up a bow than with my GMX. I've tried adjusting the shims, brace height and used a variety of different spines but my sight pin is still sticking out 75mm from the middle of the sight block. This can't be right - its like I'm aiming on the next target. Maybe my riser is twisted somehow, but its driving me nuts!!


Mine too but I thought it was my lack of experience or just between my ears that were the real problems. The limbs align fine but the GMX never feels right & while I'm reminded it might be the Indian I've always believed something was just not right. A Hoyt Aerotec I have doesn't have the same issues putting the blame on the Indian a questionable assumption but not completely invalid. When my shop set it up they moved the washer but I didn't see the same thing as they did & when I checked so I moved it back. Riser weight & overall mass weight, for me, can be problematic making a carbon riser a real consideration. Not trusting the hype & not being able to test various risers makes guessing or a mine is better than yours recommendation the wrong way to choose a riser. 
Nick


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I never bonded with the GMX. I had a few to try over the years but for whatever reason, it just didn't suit me. I think that's a love it or hate it kind of riser. Clearly, many world class archers have loved it all the way to Olympic and WC podiums. 

One thing I know is that with my 32.5" draw, once I had the chance to shoot a 27" riser indoors, I was never the same after that. But my PB outdoor scores all still came with the 24 3/4" TR-7 prototypes. Now those were enjoyable to shoot.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

fitadude said:


> Wow, did this thread go off topic. I was asking why you like the brand of bow you shoot. Maybe I should never ask an opinion question on this forum again.
> 
> 
> D Pritchett
> ...


See what I mean? This thread has gone off topic for sure, but the conversation is extremely informative to say the least.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Sorry about not sticking by my computer to carry on the conversation. Had to get ready for a Senior Olympic Event this weekend and help a few archers and coaches. Then there was the JOAD practice last night as well. I just love archery. 

Stabilizers and the straightness. This is what the head engineer of Hoyt said to me years ago, "It's not the riser, it's the stabilizer". At first I accepted this explanation, until I tested several stabilizers and talked to a few elite archers about the issue. We all came to the same conclusion, the head engineer was F.O.S. One of the ways we found out about the riser was that at one time when most archers used cast aluminum risers, heavy bows became crooked over a short period of time. Originally, Earl Hoyt thought this one shooter was actually causing the issue on purpose. However, over a period of 2 years his 54# limbs twisted several risers and Earl personally checked them. He found out that it was not the stabilizer that was inferior but the riser was slowly twisting due to the poundage. We had visuals on what was happening and so we started looking closer at our own risers (many of the elites). We found that the risers were in fact twisting. Thus, along came the limb alignment adjustments with the newer CNC'd risers. Yamaha was way ahead by using an elliptical adjustment on the limbs with the cast risers. These limb alignment adjustments got the limbs in alignment but we still did not know about the riser being off plane because it was so new to us. We did experience the "crooked" stabilizers explanation and tested our own stabilizers to see if that was the culprit but that is easily disproven by putting the stabilizer in several other risers. If the stabilizer was crooked it would be hard to keep it straight while twisting it on the riser. If the bushing was crooked, then it would show a different location from center on other risers. None of these things happened. The stabilizer smoothly screwed into the riser and the location of the stabilizer was in a different location because of the riser plane. I want to preface that the archers I am talking about were not only elite, dedicated archers but fanatics about all things archery. We loved finding out problems and discussing them and getting opinions from many different sources, in particular engineers of bows and future engineers that were in archery. What we found was that we were able to get the riser in the correct plane by using all three stabilizer bushings on the riser and aligning them up to be pointed in the right direction. The odds of all three bushings being out and the 3 stabilizers being crooked were diminished substantially. Also, one of the defining moments was that if you set the riser in the correct plane and got your plunger set right, you were able to tune easily. If the riser was out of plane, you had one heck of a time getting the tune to work according to normal physics. This was simple common sense on the part of the archers who refused to just trust the "experts". This did not sit well with the head engineer and he felt that all top archers didn't know what they were talking about. His contempt was very obvious. Anyway, this is why I do not believe that the stabilizers were crooked and the bushings can be off. The precision of the machining of risers are better than ever before. The bushing screws are large enough to not be forced into the holes without them being fairly straight if not perfectly straight. The making of stabilizers require a large enough mandrel that the mandrel is straight to begin with and will continue to be straight unless you bent it with a vice and stood on it to forcefully bend it. I would guess that one some of you mention of putting the bushings in wrong or the tolerances of putting the stabilizer together you would get about 1 in a 1000 that was off. The rest would be good enough to be hard to tell if they were straight or not. That is why you want to go with a more expensive stabilizer rig if possible because the tolerances would (or should) be tighter. However, even the cheap stabilizers are not bad at all. 

Sorry for the length and sorry if this thread was hijacked.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

fitadude said:


> I have been shooting Hoyt recurved for over 25 years now. I think it may be time for a brand change.
> Question...... what is the reason you shoot the brand of bow you do?


Win and Win, SKY and MK - I shoot them because they are not a Hoyt. I've tried Hoyt bows. Other than the GMX, I wasn't sold on the feel of the formula stuff. My shooting is best served working on technique so if I like the feel of a brand or bow, I stick with it rather than switch so much everytime they come out with a Grand Prix/Podium/Ultra/Mega Blaster model of a riser. It takes me a while to get used to my equipment so I keep my bows till they get all nice and worn.

Easiest setup I've ever done = MK. I literally took the riser out of the box, put the limbs on, checked alignment, saw it was great, put on the string with the right amount of twists and started shooting. Only things I've touched on the riser are the tiller bolts to adjust my tune. No alignment bs and the workmanship and feel of the riser is great. Win and win is very easy to adjust as well.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Rick, so what you’re saying is, the plane does not exist (on the riser) until it manifests with the three stabilizer mounts in the same plane?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

theminoritydude said:


> Rick, so what you’re saying is, the plane does not exist (on the riser) until it manifests with the three stabilizer mounts in the same plane?


Not quite. It does exist, but in order to get into this particular plane, you need to have both the front and back of the riser lined up with the stabilizers, sight and arrow shaft. Most times the riser is angled slightly to the right or left, which causes all kind of bow tuning issues. You can get your limbs in line with any of these planes, but the tune will be more difficult and from the years I tested this, I found that I could shoot a higher score when everything was aligned properly. Again, this is for elite shooting for a few more points. However, it is easier to tune when the bow is set up correctly.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

kshet26, you reading this? Any thoughts?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Rick McKinney said:


> Not quite. It does exist, but in order to get into this particular plane, you need to have both the front and back of the riser lined up with the stabilizers, sight and arrow shaft. Most times the riser is angled slightly to the right or left, which causes all kind of bow tuning issues. You can get your limbs in line with any of these planes, but the tune will be more difficult and from the years I tested this, I found that I could shoot a higher score when everything was aligned properly. Again, this is for elite shooting for a few more points. However, it is easier to tune when the bow is set up correctly.


Next question: Does a twisted riser have this plane?


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Don't you think a twisted riser has created it's own plane? slightly different than a natural plane?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Rick McKinney said:


> Don't you think a twisted riser has created it's own plane? slightly different than a natural plane?


Indeed it has. If one goes for the definition of a geometric plane as being defined by three points. But in the case of a twisted riser, the normal vector of the limb pockets do not lie in a common plane, which is what I believe Hoyt was trying to address with the introduction of the Pro-Series Limb Dowel.

Which I use/misuse to twist the riser. Long story......


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> kshet26, you reading this? Any thoughts?


11 pages worth, for reference...

https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1703779&highlight=plane


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## tim.long (Jul 4, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> If you have any limb alignment system on your riser at all, that's all you need.
> 
> All Rick is describing is the process that was very clearly laid out in the Hoyt Avalon riser manual more than 20 years ago. It's exactly where I learned about achieving proper alignment for a recurve riser. I wonder, do people just not read the directions anymore, or do riser manufacturers not describe this process anymore, or both?


I misunderstood: This is because Rick is saying/assuming the actual stabilizer + all the other potential misalignments are reasonable enough to do this.

What I was asking was your POV when you believe something in that stack up is crooked.

The process makes sense, I just question what to do when the stabilizer or something in between is crooked. Pretty sure they don't cover that in the manual, it's just line up the back bolts.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

tim.long said:


> I just question what to do when the stabilizer or something in between is crooked. Pretty sure they don't cover that in the manual, it's just line up the back bolts.


Toss it and get one that isn't crooked. If you have an option to get something that isn't bad/crooked/defective, why would you tolerate just shooting something that isn't designed to be straight to begin with? If you align a crooked riser to straight limbs, you're still shooting a crooked setup. Why anyone would continue shooting something like that with the availability of better gear doesn't make sense.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> why would you tolerate just shooting something that isn't designed to be straight to begin with?


Because to some degree, no setup is straight. It's all a matter of what your tolerance is.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Hey Doug, you could ask 2019 indoor national champ, in the masters division, Mike Gerrard, about his BMG Extreme. It is one of the best risers ever made and has a bullet proof limb adjustment system.......none. I wish Martinus Grov would resurrect it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Hey Doug, you could ask 2019 indoor national champ, in the masters division, Mike Gerrard, about his BMG Extreme. It is one of the best risers ever made and has a bullet proof limb adjustment system.......none. I wish Martinus Grov would resurrect it.


Why, that sounds a lot like the same system the BEST Zenits I shot in '06 have!  I was so sick of the PSE X-Factor's limb blocks moving on me that I was glad to have risers with no adjustment. Those were some of the best shooting risers I ever used.


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## mikeallanclark (Feb 20, 2019)

Riser Wise I shoot an SF Ultimate, which is all carbon. very light and frankly a lovely feeling and looking Riser.

I have shot it for about 3 years. Before that I shot an old Win and win that I bought from ebay for next to nothing, still works today, as I keep it for the crossover time between indoors and outdoors ( im in the UK) so have the SF ultimate for which ever i expect to be shooting the most, and the Win win for the other.(cant remember the model of w&W, as im at work, btu im sure it will come to me ---- the moment i pressed send I remembered, its a Win Win NX Xpert - old riser, but does what it says on the can)

Once you have a riser that you like, I dont think there is ever really a reason to change it, the manufacturers bring out new risers every year or so, but what can be different really?

limbs are a whole different ball game. I use win win at the moment, but have been considering UUkhas, think I may end up going back to Border limbs as i like the feel ( I had a set of Hex 5s snap on me after only a few months, which have made me a little wary , Sid replaced them with no problems, but I had lost confidence so I sold them on ( big mistake, I should have waited a bit) )


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## ceratops (May 17, 2017)

Rick McKinney said:


> Sorry about not sticking by my computer to carry on the conversation. Had to get ready for a Senior Olympic Event this weekend and help a few archers and coaches. Then there was the JOAD practice last night as well. I just love archery.
> 
> Stabilizers and the straightness. This is what the head engineer of Hoyt said to me years ago, "It's not the riser, it's the stabilizer". At first I accepted this explanation, until I tested several stabilizers and talked to a few elite archers about the issue. We all came to the same conclusion, the head engineer was F.O.S. One of the ways we found out about the riser was that at one time when most archers used cast aluminum risers, heavy bows became crooked over a short period of time. Originally, Earl Hoyt thought this one shooter was actually causing the issue on purpose. However, over a period of 2 years his 54# limbs twisted several risers and Earl personally checked them. He found out that it was not the stabilizer that was inferior but the riser was slowly twisting due to the poundage. We had visuals on what was happening and so we started looking closer at our own risers (many of the elites). We found that the risers were in fact twisting. Thus, along came the limb alignment adjustments with the newer CNC'd risers. Yamaha was way ahead by using an elliptical adjustment on the limbs with the cast risers. These limb alignment adjustments got the limbs in alignment but we still did not know about the riser being off plane because it was so new to us. We did experience the "crooked" stabilizers explanation and tested our own stabilizers to see if that was the culprit but that is easily disproven by putting the stabilizer in several other risers. If the stabilizer was crooked it would be hard to keep it straight while twisting it on the riser. If the bushing was crooked, then it would show a different location from center on other risers. None of these things happened. The stabilizer smoothly screwed into the riser and the location of the stabilizer was in a different location because of the riser plane. I want to preface that the archers I am talking about were not only elite, dedicated archers but fanatics about all things archery. We loved finding out problems and discussing them and getting opinions from many different sources, in particular engineers of bows and future engineers that were in archery. What we found was that we were able to get the riser in the correct plane by using all three stabilizer bushings on the riser and aligning them up to be pointed in the right direction. The odds of all three bushings being out and the 3 stabilizers being crooked were diminished substantially. Also, one of the defining moments was that if you set the riser in the correct plane and got your plunger set right, you were able to tune easily. If the riser was out of plane, you had one heck of a time getting the tune to work according to normal physics. This was simple common sense on the part of the archers who refused to just trust the "experts". This did not sit well with the head engineer and he felt that all top archers didn't know what they were talking about. His contempt was very obvious. Anyway, this is why I do not believe that the stabilizers were crooked and the bushings can be off. The precision of the machining of risers are better than ever before. The bushing screws are large enough to not be forced into the holes without them being fairly straight if not perfectly straight. The making of stabilizers require a large enough mandrel that the mandrel is straight to begin with and will continue to be straight unless you bent it with a vice and stood on it to forcefully bend it. I would guess that one some of you mention of putting the bushings in wrong or the tolerances of putting the stabilizer together you would get about 1 in a 1000 that was off. The rest would be good enough to be hard to tell if they were straight or not. That is why you want to go with a more expensive stabilizer rig if possible because the tolerances would (or should) be tighter. However, even the cheap stabilizers are not bad at all.
> 
> Sorry for the length and sorry if this thread was hijacked.


Very interesting, and thank you for explaining at such length. So, if I'm understanding the gist of this -- your experience, and that of other elite archers, suggests that when there is a misalignment in the riser/stabilizer system, it is statistically much more likely to be the fault of the riser than of the stabilizer? Do you believe this is still the case with today's generation of risers?



Rick McKinney said:


> Don't you think a twisted riser has created it's own plane? slightly different than a natural plane?


It seems that any riser (no matter how twisted) would have its own plane at brace, and would also have its own plane at full draw. The thing I would wonder about, though, is whether that plane is changing during the shot, as the bow returns from its drawn position to at-rest position. If everything is straight to begin with, presumable the entire action stays in the same plane throughout the shot (with the exception of the initial string deflection upon release). But if anything is twisted (riser or limbs), it seems likely that the plane would be shifting during the shot, which sounds less predictable in terms of accuracy... ?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Have shot Hoyt Formula RX. Then Sky TR-7 version 1. Then Sky TR-7 version 2. Then WinWin Nano TFT. Now Matthews TR-7 Prototype. 

They have all been pleasurable risers to shoot. Upside to all of them: blah blah blah. They all had many fine qualities.

Things about each that wasn't perfect (for me): 

* Hoyt Formula RX - never could quite get the grip box geometry to mesh properly with my hand.

* Sky TR-7 version 1 - loved this riser. 4 years. Eventually it developed a stress fracture just above the shelf, so retired it.

* Sky TR-7 version 2 - riser felt unbalanced, and felt a little uncomfortable in its own skin. Maybe it was my fault, but never really got on with it.

* WinWin Nano TFT - beautiful riser in design/fit/finish. Very different feel/reaction to the aluminum risers I had cut my teeth on. Ultimately just didn't like the after-shot feel of the carbon riser (and quite frankly, it was a little too beautiful for me - couldn't relax around it)

* Matthews TR-7 Prototype - best riser ever. Gnarly, manly (I can use the help!), beautifully balanced, athletic at-the-shot. Never gonna not shoot this riser.


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## moomooholycow (Sep 15, 2016)

tunedlow said:


> Toss it and get one that isn't crooked. If you have an option to get something that isn't bad/crooked/defective, why would you tolerate just shooting something that isn't designed to be straight to begin with? If you align a crooked riser to straight limbs, you're still shooting a crooked setup. Why anyone would continue shooting something like that with the availability of better gear doesn't make sense.


Strangely, my FIVICS manual says that they purposefully offset the bushing around 2 degrees for whatever reason.. one of my Platina's bushings is about 4 degrees off.. I've relegated it to an emergency bow..


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## josh_gml (Jun 21, 2019)

moomooholycow said:


> Strangely, my FIVICS manual says that they purposefully offset the bushing around 2 degrees for whatever reason.. one of my Platina's bushings is about 4 degrees off.. I've relegated it to an emergency bow..


Gillos risers use a 1mm offset to ensure better balance. Dont know if it works tho.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

fitadude said:


> I have been shooting Hoyt recurved for over 25 years now. I think it may be time for a brand change.
> Question...... what is the reason you shoot the brand of bow you do?
> 
> 
> ...


I'll shoot anything NOT a Hoyt. I find others to feel better than Hoyt and was never impressed with the Formula stuff so other than the GMX or anything before that series, I'd shoot Win & Win, small brand manufacturers such as Sky or Stolid Bull or MK. Of course I tried every iteration of the formula bow since it came out to try it and it always felt too jittery even with rods/dampeners. Currently shooting MK and SKY.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

josh_gml said:


> Gillos risers use a 1mm offset to ensure better balance. Dont know if it works tho.


I'm pretty sure that Vittorio doesn't use the end user as his beta testing team - based on Gillo's reputation and the participation of him and others on this forum, it would completely stun me! If he built an offset into the bow, it was for a reason.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

lksseven said:


> Have shot Hoyt Formula RX. Then Sky TR-7 version 1. Then Sky TR-7 version 2. Then WinWin Nano TFT. Now Matthews TR-7 Prototype.
> 
> They have all been pleasurable risers to shoot. Upside to all of them: blah blah blah. They all had many fine qualities.
> 
> ...


If you ever decide to sell the Matthews, hit me up. I've always wanted one and love the design.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Maggiemaebe said:


> I'm pretty sure that Vittorio doesn't use the end user as his beta testing team - based on Gillo's reputation and the participation of him and others on this forum, it would completely stun me! If he built an offset into the bow, it was for a reason.


 1mm offset on center bushing has been introduced first by Best Archery on Zenit model in 2000. 
My son has shot 2 indoor world record in 2001 with it (597 18 mt and 588 25 mt), won World Championships in 2003 and Olympic Gold in 2012 with it, not to mention countless number of other titles and medals. Not to mention all others using that risers in the years. 

I have kept the 1 mm offset when i designed Luxor 27 in 2007 and of course in all top of the range GILLO risers, including new GT risers.

Horizontal angle of the long rod bushing is usually a defect, very diffcult to limit in production, surely not a design will.


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