# Holding steady



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Search function is our friend. 

Here's a very recent discussion on the topic: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2424308&highlight=holding+steady


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

jim p said:


> When it comes to holding center on the X, what seems to have the most impact? Draw length, holding weight, how hard you pull into the wall,
> 
> I probably shoot around 280 and my hold is usually within the 9 ring. I would like to be able to hold within the 10 ring.


All of the above... and then some. I used to believe that float was what it was and you shouldn't pay any attention to it. The less you paid attention to it the better your centering would be, and therefore the more 10's you would get. Well I was mistaken about this for the most part. Your float can be reduced but you have to study it first to make any kind of a start. The first thing I did was to place more of my attention to it, not control it, but to just pay attention to it. I had to remove all thoughts of execution from my thought process in order to even make a start at doing this. Yes, the equipment setup has something to do with it, but until you "learn" how to be steady, equipment changes (unless way off) won't help much. Once you learn how to be steady, then the other factors come into play, but not before. Just my opinion.

Relaxation is one of the things I found most helpful as the more you tighten up in an effort to be steady, the less steady you will be. So forget about where the arrow is going to land and do some drills to examine your float and see if you can improve on it. When I did this I was amazed how steady I could be when it was my only goal.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

Problem holding, give shorter draw length a try.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

EPLC said:


> All of the above... and then some. I used to believe that float was what it was and you shouldn't pay any attention to it. The less you paid attention to it the better your centering would be, and therefore the more 10's you would get. Well I was mistaken about this for the most part. Your float can be reduced but you have to study it first to make any kind of a start. The first thing I did was to place more of my attention to it, not control it, but to just pay attention to it. I had to remove all thoughts of execution from my thought process in order to even make a start at doing this. Yes, the equipment setup has something to do with it, but until you "learn" how to be steady, equipment changes (unless way off) won't help much. Once you learn how to be steady, then the other factors come into play, but not before. Just my opinion.
> 
> Relaxation is one of the things I found most helpful as the more you tighten up in an effort to be steady, the less steady you will be. So forget about where the arrow is going to land and do some drills to examine your float and see if you can improve on it. When I did this I was amazed how steady I could be when it was my only goal.


:thumbs_up


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

I believe holding weight is #1 and draw length #2

you can have the correct drawlength but if you cant handle the holding weight your gonna struggle


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

there is a reason why most kids don't shoot 60lbs and hold 20lbs

On the other thread its almost funny everyone tells them to increase holding weight.
increasing any weight should make it worse and shaking should get worse

more weight=more tension most of the time.we are trying to eliminate tension.everyone engages/disengages muscles alittle differently and if your not doing it at 13lbs holding weight going up isnt going to make you engage or disengage better.

people don't want to say they are overbowed but if your not holding well or really scoring well why would you go up in peek or holding weight?

learn to do it at lower poundage and baby steps up if need be


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Agree with possum and in fact I'd actually put mass weight of the bow as #1 for me, then holding weight as #2. For example, my float with my PSE (holding weight about 8lbs) is significantly worse with my full Beiter stab system on it than it is with just one of the 12" side rods. Same with the shooting too; my groups really spread out, but as soon as I take it off and put on the side rod by itself, they tighten right back up.

Reason being, the bow weighs a ton with the full system on it which not only worsens the float but helps break down my form having to hold all that weight out on the end of the bow arm.

Course, that gets better over time as we strengthen up, but that's how I stay as steady as possible - the least amount of stuff on my bow! 

LS


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

1. Proper alignment 
1. Proper draw length. 
2. Set up the shot properly. 
3. Relax and don't try to control it. 
4. Effortless execution.
5. Don't over analyze it. 

I actually found my correct set up by accident. What I thought was my correct draw length was actually to short about a 1/4". My float slowed immensely. 

A wide float "usually" indicates a draw that is to long. A jerky float "usually" indicates a draw to short. 

Opinions and styles may vary.


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## MiniJCW (Apr 27, 2014)

possum trapper said:


> there is a reason why most kids don't shoot 60lbs and hold 20lbs
> 
> On the other thread its almost funny everyone tells them to increase holding weight.
> increasing any weight should make it worse and shaking should get worse
> ...


Totally agree with you here. I have struggled with a Spiral X cam bow for about 18 months now, 19lbs holding weight. I borrowed a Maxxis 35 off a friend whist waiting for some strings to come for my Vantage Elite Plus. The difference in holding weight was significant with the Maxxis and i actually shot very well with it. But most important i was able to relax with my execution and that is what made the biggest difference for me.

I have got a Pro Edge Elite coming very soon and am really excited about having a play with this bow, fingers crossed some big things await with my new journey with the Pro Edge.

I am not bashing the higher holding weight of certain cams ie: Spiral X, some people with aggressive shots can use them very well, others with a more relaxed shot may find it difficult with the higher holding weight. I for one have found with the high holding weight i had to keep more tension in my upper body, which in turn created shakes and tremors as i would tire towards the end of the round. I was a little concerned with relaxing into the shot with the Spiral X cams as i had the feeling that i would get fed through the shoot through window in my bow if i came off the wall any.

I believe that i have been overbowed for the time i have had my VE+ never mind you live and learn, stepping into a new bow with less holding weight just might be the answer for me to make the next few steps forward with my shooting.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

My float is a little jerky and likes to bounce at times. I think that I will drop the draw weight a few pounds and see if I get any improvement. 

In my younger days I shot a bow with the draw length at least 1" to long. I held better with the long draw length. But now that the age is climbing I need to get things set up to help me do better.

Thanks for the comments.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

unclejane said:


> Agree with possum and in fact I'd actually put mass weight of the bow as #1 for me, then holding weight as #2. For example, my float with my PSE (holding weight about 8lbs) is significantly worse with my full Beiter stab system on it than it is with just one of the 12" side rods. Same with the shooting too; my groups really spread out, but as soon as I take it off and put on the side rod by itself, they tighten right back up.
> 
> Reason being, the bow weighs a ton with the full system on it which not only worsens the float but helps break down my form having to hold all that weight out on the end of the bow arm.
> 
> ...


Holding weight makes a major difference with regards to ideal bow mass and center of gravity location.

Also the Beiter rod is unfortunately not a good option if light mass is required.

-Grant


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My target bow was stranded in my dads yard after a snow storm yesterday and I had to shoot my 3d bow without a set of stabs and it sucked, I had forgot how much a set of stabs that are customized to your best weight combination really slow up the float and also shrink it. I had to shoot my bow without any stabs for about a hour and a half and it was a good reminder.


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## nate0404 (Dec 7, 2013)

jim p said:


> My float is a little jerky and likes to bounce at times. I think that I will drop the draw weight a few pounds and see if I get any improvement.
> 
> In my younger days I shot a bow with the draw length at least 1" to long. I held better with the long draw length. But now that the age is climbing I need to get things set up to help me do better.
> 
> Thanks for the comments.


So if you held better with a longer draw length and the goal is to hold better, lengthen the draw length.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Holding weight makes a major difference with regards to ideal bow mass and center of gravity location.
> 
> Also the Beiter rod is unfortunately not a good option if light mass is required.
> 
> -Grant


Agree and agree. I love my Beiter setup, don't get me wrong, but it does weigh a ton. In fact, my next major buy is going to have to be a lightweight stab system since I'm going to be shooting open class...

LS


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

I have been playing with holding steadier, changing stabilizers, changing stab weights, stab angles, stab lengths, draw weight, etc..

Then just recently, I increased my draw length an inch and a quarter. This made me much, much more steady at full draw.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

This will probably be a less popular opinion, but patience is in my opinion the most important thing you need to hold inside the ten. Once you’ve gone through all of the steps to minimize movement, then you have to work on letting it settle in. 

Draw length – You can get a little of the movement out here, but not all. I prefer to get it comfortable to hold, rather than trying to fine tune holding issues with it.

Stabilizer weights – Same thing. I set it up to balance the bow, not so much to create mass weight. I like it to almost sit when it fires and very closely hold level at draw, without forcing it with my bow hand.

Mass weight – This is where I really fine tune. I add a little at a time until the jumpiness is gone. Adding too much makes it hard to hold up towards the end of the game, so I keep it right on the edge. (weights added to the riser)

Tension – I’ve shot every different way we could discuss, and found that I prefer more of a static release arm. With pulling harder to steady, I’ve found that the shot becomes weaker as fatigue sets in (coupled with tournament stress) and it becomes less effective in steadying the dot. The steadiest hold I have found is when I have a solid bow arm with relaxed hands, especially the bow hand. I keep just enough tension to stay on the stops, and focus on letting it settle. I don’t use back tension to fire the release.

I get into trouble when I get nervous and tense up my bow hand, or just simply not little it settle and rush the shot.


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## bsp5019 (Oct 1, 2007)

I find for myself, and I arrived at this using Padgett's "Study your aim" method.....I find that If I do that, draw back, aim, but do not activate my firing engine, I can hold almost pro steady, for anywhere between 5-10 seconds, with my pin (yes pin. I shoot bow hunter freestyle) floating around in the 10 ring, sometimes a little larger, and sometimes there is next to no movement at all.

However, when I'm actually shooting, if I feel any amount of pressure, or tension, or the release is not going off within my window of time, my hold completely deteriorates and I shake bad. A lot of time I can just shoot through this and get an x or 10 on a Vegas face. However, occasionally I will shoot a really bad shot on one of these ends, and this hurts my round.


I know this shake is a form of target panic. Its my subconscious fighting the float. My next step in my shooting progression is to learn how to be comfortable with float, and to learn to eliminate the shake and to not shoot any shots that my movement is larger than what I know is acceptable. In the past 5 months my form has come a long way and my scores, especially with pins and short stabs, have come along way and I'm very happy with how I'm shooting. However, I know I can shoot better and I know that to get to that next level, in the progression of my shooting, I'm going to have to learn to be comfortable and to eliminate that shake.

My plan is to:
1) continue with the Padgett "study your float" method. 
2) Transition that studying into doing shot by shot training.
a) I'm going to draw back and study my float and then let down.
b) Then, I'm going to then draw back, aim, activate my firing engine, and shoot a shot.
i) If the float goes away or is to shaky, I'll let down and start back at step "a".
c) I will do this until it becomes habit and then I'll move on to see how many arrows In a row I can shoot with smooth float.
i) If the float goes away, I'll let down and start back with step "a".
3) Do this until I'm completely spectator shooting.

I know that it wont always be easy, but at the same time if I want to reach my goad of shooting in the 590's on a Vegas round with BHFS setup, I'm going to have to eliminate that and refine that movement from my shot sequence.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you put "holding steady", into perspective, it's somewhat easy to understand that it is all but completely impossible to do. mathematically, "angular dispersion" establishes that, at 20 yards and the average target bow sight set up, it only takes something like .012" (that's 12 "thousandths" of an inch) movement, to sweep across the diameter of an X-ring !
a 5/16" ring going completely outside the x-ring on both sides of it's range of float !.... takes only .042" movement , which is slightly less than 1/16 of an inch movement !.


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

Chris1ny said:


> Problem holding, give shorter draw length a try.


It's amazing what half an inch will do .


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

ron w said:


> if you put "holding steady", into perspective, it's somewhat easy to understand that it is all but completely impossible to do. mathematically, "angular dispersion" establishes that, at 20 yards and the average target bow sight set up, it only takes something like .012" (that's 12 "thousandths" of an inch) movement, to sweep across the diameter of an X-ring !
> a 5/16" ring going completely outside the x-ring on both sides of it's range of float !.... takes only .042" movement , which is slightly less than 1/16 of an inch movement !.


It truly is amazing when you think about it like that how we shoot as good as we do!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

unclejane said:


> Agree and agree. I love my Beiter setup, don't get me wrong, but it does weigh a ton. In fact, my next major buy is going to have to be a lightweight stab system since I'm going to be shooting open class...
> 
> LS


Some of the older Doinkers (I have one) are extremely light mass. Likewise with Bernie's lightest. I've also built a set of ultralight stabs where light mass was the primary goal over stiffness.
Long story short if your stab is so heavy that you can't run at least some mass on the end then it isn't doing you any good.

-Grant


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

The more I learn in this sport the more I realize it all interweaves. What I mean is each individual item you mentioned and many more play into each other and the outcome is your hold and shot execution. Ex. If I have a holding weight of 20lbs and mass weight of my bow at 5.5 pounds it won't work together now is too light for that holding weight. Every variable matters but they are also dependent on each other. DL I feels plays way more into how I execute my shot with my hinge so I have set dl based on shot execution and also hold to a degree then have played with other variables until my hold and shot execution are where they should be. First make big changes to each to see a real difference then make small to fine tune. It's a process getting a bow to hold and shoot well


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the best efficiency as a stabilizer, comes in the tube's stiffness and it's weight. the stiffer and lighter it is, the more efficient as a stabilizer it is. 
can someone say , "large diameter, thin walled carbon tube ? !".
the most resistance to movement comes in a stabilizer's length. 
soo....
long, thin walled, carbon tubes have the best of both worlds.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

You have to get the tungsten carbide weights. Only $300.

I dropped my draw weight by one turn of the limb bolt. My float was a little slower and not as large. Maybe less weight and slightly longer draw length helped with the float.

I added 21 ounces of stabilizer weights and it was too much for me. My bow arm started shaking from the weight. My total stabilizer weights were 35 ounces. I am going to knock 8 ounces of weight off the rear and see how that does. 

I also tried drawing and holding on target with no intention of shooting and my float was the same as when I am going to shoot. So maybe this means that I am not fighting target panic and shot execution problems.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ron w said:


> the best efficiency as a stabilizer, comes in the tube's stiffness and it's weight. the stiffer and lighter it is, the more efficient as a stabilizer it is.
> can someone say , "large diameter, thin walled carbon tube ? !".
> the most resistance to movement comes in a stabilizer's length.
> soo....
> long, thin walled, carbon tubes have the best of both worlds.


Until you step outside into this thing called wind........


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Until you step outside into this thing called wind........


I think Ron meant just the bar itself. Obviously you need weight, just at the end and not throughout


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yes, that is what I was talking about. although, if you can tolerate it, a little extra weight at the end of the stick, will work to your advantage, in the wind.
the thing about wind, is that it is the same hindrance to everyone shooting in it. the guy next to you, is having the same hard time dealing with it, as you are ! 
of, course there are certain ways to gain an edge against it, like smaller diameter, or shorter stabilizers, but they are always a trade off, to some degree. about the only appreciable recent development that is truly advantageous, is the Sword stab, that is foil shaped. they maintain their stiffness, in the necessary plane, and their foil shape and thin profile, is less influenced by cross winds, but there again, there is a trade-off.....look at the price tag !.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Some of the older Doinkers (I have one) are extremely light mass. Likewise with Bernie's lightest. I've also built a set of ultralight stabs where light mass was the primary goal over stiffness.
> Long story short if your stab is so heavy that you can't run at least some mass on the end then it isn't doing you any good.
> 
> -Grant


Yep, I'm considering a Bernie longrod for that reason. My Hoyt almost balances with my Beiter, and is perfect with the entire thing including V-bars, but the end result weighs more than a black hole. 

It worked perfectly on my oly recurve, but then again that bow scarcely weighs 3 lbs all up.

The Bernie or perhaps a Doinker, still flipping the coin there. I'd DIY one, but by the time I got hold of the materials and tools, I'd probably be better off just getting a ready-made one.

LS


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Chris1ny said:


> Problem holding, give shorter draw length a try.


In my case improvement came from a draw length almost an inch longer. Thing is, draw length has to be right for each individual archer. In most cases, you are probably right. Most of the HMF threads are posted with guys who are 1" to 3" long.

Then too, you have to have the right draw length AND good form. I got lucky and a good coach helped me. I'm not getting ready to compete with the big boys, but my recent scores have been equal to the best I ever put up. Just waiting for better weather and more daylight to fine tune my DL.

Form, bow fit, relaxation & practice are all it takes to shoot good. Sounds simple, doesn't it. It is simple, just really hard to accomplish.

Allen


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yea, rods are one of those things that requires some special stuff to make at home. if you have the facility to make that stuff, they're easy to make, and make well, but if you don't, the best you can do is make a club, for all practical purposes. the other aspect, is that obtaining the equipment to make a nice one, is as expensive , or probably more so, that just biting the bullet and buying one, especially when you consider that if you've made three or four, you probably won't need another one for the rest of your life !.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Thanks for the advice. I reduced my draw weight by one turn of the limb bolts and I added 17 ounces of weight to my stabilizers.

Today I shot better than I have shot for 4 years. I didn't keep score but I should have been in the 290's on a vegas target.

Thanks again.


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