# My perspective



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

As many of you already know, I've been all over the spectrum of bow opinions but over the last few years could very easily be deemed a member of the "light bow camp". After a very long recent email trying to talk someone off the ledge of over-bowing themselves on their first traditional bow, I wanted to take a few minutes to explain why I feel the way I do in the hopes of shedding a little light on *my* perspective.

I started into archery with Asbell's book and VHS tape. I never touched a compound, only traditional- most home made. It started me out with snap shooting instinctively, and his own personal draw weights encouraged me to move up as soon as I could. I built my own selfbows and so it was easy. Every new bow just had to be heavier than the last. Not long after that I read Howard Hill's book and got his movies from 3Rivers. I felt I had found the secrets to success! I was shooting heavy bows quickly, and felt that with a little adaptation I could be just like Mr. Hill.

The trouble was I was progressing through draw weights far too soon and far too quickly. I had engrained snap shooting to where I couldn't shoot any other way, and soon felt I "couldn't" shoot a light bow as well as my heavy ones. I was using the weight to rip the string from my fingers to account for my awful release. I became more interested in the power of my bows, the speed of my arrows, and the promises of being able to get a pass through on elk and moose and dangerous game should these opportunities arise at a moment's notice! My accuracy improved slowly, and I felt it was just a matter of time. At close range I was able to shoot decent groups, and even managed to hit moving targets or perform "tricks". I felt I was getting somewhere. I also felt like I couldn't give up what I had gained. The power was "necessary". If I messed up I needed that power to make a clean kill. I felt others were just being wimps not going higher in draw weight. This is hunting we're talking about, not paper!

The truth was, I was wasting a lot of time. I had gone up in weight too soon, and too quickly. I never saw what my real potential as an archer and bowhunter was. I limited myself to how I could actually shoot a bow- I could hold my 85# bow at full draw, but if I stood in front of a mirror I could match the point of the arrow slowly crawl farther and farther away from the back of the bow. I could shoot in all the crazy positions Mr. Hill did but I couldn't go to a high anchor because it was too much strain on the muscles in that position. I was never truly relaxed at full draw. I felt I was in complete control, but I was wrong. I thought I was shooting well, but again, I was wrong. I had never gotten to shoot with any talented traditional archers at that point. I didn't care about accuracy on paper. I just wanted to tag some deer. However I was so hell bent on making sure that if I got a hit I'd have two holes that I was ruining my chance of getting one... and I didn't even realize it.

I shoot very slowly now, and my bows are all around 45-50#. I improved more in six months of shooting 50# than I had in 5 years of shooting bows over 62#. I shoot more like a compound shooter than how I shot when I began. I kill a lot more game too, filling the freezer every year since 2011 with arrow killed venison. I've taken small game, and even my first turkey. All shooting slowly and deliberately with a modest draw weight. I couldn't learn how to do that with my heavy bows. It was never an option. That's how I have to shoot to do well though. I've had a couple deer where I didn't get pass throughs too. However I've found that an unalarmed animal that has a sharp head through both lungs won't make it very far anyway. I'm also finding I get a surprising amount of energy out of my bows because my draw length is notably longer- another thing I could never find out when my bows were heavy.

I've shot heavy bows since learning to shoot. I know how to apply the control better. I know that if I were inclined, I could work back into those weights easily, but lately I'm more interested in just hunting and eating then practicing hours on end every day to maintain my strength. I'm also chasing accuracy still, but haven't reached my goals. I over did it with the draw weight, I know, but others can learn from my mistakes even if they aren't going to such extremes. Ordering 50# or 55# for your first bow might be enough to limit your finer control when learning. It might be enough to reduce how quickly you'll learn, or how far you'll progress. I don't think there's anything wrong with a person shooting a heavy bow if that's what they enjoy. I've toyed with the idea of getting back into heavy bows myself now that I know so much more. At the end of the day though, my goal is to put meat in the freezer. I've learned that means an arrow in the vitals, nothing more. 

I would never hold it against an experienced archer to shoot a heavy bow, but for folks who are new to traditional, I know- from personal experience- that too much weight limits how much you can try for yourself to see what you like and what works. We all start somewhere. I hope that when folks see my recommendations for lower draw weight they might understand why I feel that way. It's not that heavy bows themselves are bad, I just think that we get in our own way sometimes. Some of us can shoot a lot better than we do, we just don't realize it yet!


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

For sure brother. I started with a 55lb bow, then a 50, now at 46 my dl has increased from 27-29 and I feel totally relaxed at full draw. I still can't rock a high anchor though I shot with one for years but, I think that's more anatomy. It literally seems twists my elbow way high and it hurts to try and expand. I cannot get it down even with a 35lb bow but, with a lower anchor, rock solid, with great releases. Anyway man you're right. Gotta remember though brother some guys (like myself) learn about hammers by smashing their thumbs with 'em and going "wow that didn't work":darkbeer:


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

P.S. man your bows rock!


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

You are wise beyond your years and you figured out in a few years what hook me a lifetime 

I'm as strong as I ever was and I'm going lighter and shooting better 

If you have to snap shoot to Get your bow back than you should not be shooting it


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Great post, Kegan!

I try to always stress to new folks that every bow had a purpose like any tool. Heavy bows are for throwing a heavy arrow. They have a good purpose, but they come with great limitations in other purposes.

For what most want to do, stand in the backyard or range and drive tacks, you need a light bow - end of story. You can't drive tacks very long or very accurate with a sledge hammer, but too many new folks buy the sledge hammer as their one and single hammer.

I know we have a few guys in the Olympics driving long range tacks with their sledge hammers, but, I think if you polled heavy bow target shooters you will find they come from lifetimes of building into it. It's a product of what they have slowly over decades developed into, many during their developmental years too boot, and for which no person is going to replicate by trying to start where they have finished up.

I can remember reading the old Saxton Pope book - heavy for hunting, light for target/practice. Even then, using one bow to do both was not the advice.


----------



## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

This should be a sticky at the top of the page for all new and old archers

Great job!


----------



## ex-diver (Dec 20, 2002)

Kegan, the last two sentences in the last paragraph of your post hits it home for me! 
I too have have bows from 63lbs to 52lbs and I'm looking for [email protected]" for my next stick. Funny, the stronger I get the more I want a lower weight bow. Could be I'm getting a little wiser in my young age of 54 ha! 
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders.
Have a good one


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Yes, that last sentence is a great summation of his reasoning! In short order, we may have great genetic potential, but starting in a position of overtraining by trying to build ourself up and into it is backwards to ever finding it.


----------



## gnome (Oct 22, 2006)

Another vote for making this a *STICKY*.


----------



## Homey88 (Dec 10, 2013)

Great insight, well said.


----------



## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I have always subscribed to the idea that you should shoot as much hunting bow as you can shoot accurately. That is different from just target shooting or 3D. I just started shooting for the first time since early November. Even with the "indoor" bow of 42#, I could not shoot more than 60 arrows at this point. I look at preparing for hunting season as a journey. Start out light, work on form, increase accuracy, and then move up in weight.
Yes, a 42# bow will work for deer, but I still like a bit of an edge and that is the reason I have the heavier limbs. That is not to say that the guy shooting a lighter bow should not hunt, but he needs to understand that we are restricted by our ability and our equipment. They must go hand in hand in order to maximize our efforts when shooting deer or other game.
Even though I hunt with the heavier bow listed in signature, I still stay with a two blade head in order to maximize penetration. I hope for everything to go perfectly, but I am realistic and understand that that is not always the case. That is why I like a bit extra. Deer shoulders are tough.
I would like to shoot even more poundage but my current hunting bow is my limit. I have to recognize that and accept it. For the guys that can accurately shoot and hunt with more poundage, good for you. I wish I could, but I cannot.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks, everyone. I know a lot of the heated draw weight debates just turn into flaming matches, so I thought if I offered the how's and why's behind my thinking, at least we could all understand each other better. Maybe avoid a few needless arguments.

Bill2311, I don't think there's a single thing wrong with working up in draw weight, especially for hunting. You're on the right track, and given your background in compounds you had a firm foundation- something I never established before getting into the heavy stuff. That first step, establishing accuracy, doesn't come with if you choose your "hunting" weight first, or move into it too quickly. I started shooting as a kid with 15-20# selfbows, but when I got into hunting I went from 35# to 65# in less than a year, and kept climbing. I would have been better served learning as you did, fist getting as good as I could with a light bow and then adding draw weight.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

*Great* post Kegan.

I've often said that the vast majority of all bad shooting habits can be traced directly back to trying to shoot too much weight. Habits that can and often do last a lifetime.

I've been an active member on this and other archery sites for well over a decade, and in that time I seen literally hundreds of times where people (including me) have posted that if they could change one thing, they would have started out with a lighter bow. In all that time, I have never once read that someone wished they had started with a heavier bow.

KPC


----------



## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

Great post Keagan, when I started shooting recurves I was surrounded by otheres that were heavy bow guys. I felt left out because I couldn't handle the weights they were shooting. When I went lighter I shot better.


----------



## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Great post Kegan - hopefully some will learn from your experience..........but, just the other day at my local pro shop I was talking with the owner about 'why all the 50-55# bows' he said that is what people want. He has a few around 40# but nobody wants them and well - the customer is always right. Right?


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks for this Kegan. It means a lot coming from you. Folks have followed your archery here from your first bows, to your first kill. It has been great following your progress. It's not where you are, but how you get there that tells the story, and you have a great story.

And bring back the economical archer. I always liked that.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

excellent post kegan, great insight, and for me i started @ 50#,then went to 65#, then went to 45# now im down to 42# and shooting groups like i would with a compound....


----------



## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

Great post


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Extremely well put kegan!

Similar experience. Started 55, jumped to 70, hung out there for quite some time, was happy, friend suggested I try 60. Did so, and enjoyed how easy it felt. Dropped to 54. Noticed i had less odd flyers. Stayed there, became surprised at how well i could sometimes shoot, given regular practice. Dropped to 46. Am really happy with it. When i have money again, wouldn't mind the idea of playing with a 35# trainer.

I can still shoot my 70, and shoot it better now, but my standards have shifted, and i realize that i can't meet those standards on a Bow that heavy for very long, certainly not an all day tournament, or a 900 round.


----------



## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

BarneySlayer said:


> Extremely well put kegan!
> 
> Similar experience. Started 55, jumped to 70, hung out there for quite some time, was happy, friend suggested I try 60. Did so, and enjoyed how easy it felt. Dropped to 54. Noticed i had less odd flyers. Stayed there, became surprised at how well i could sometimes shoot, given regular practice. Dropped to 46. Am really happy with it. When i have money again, wouldn't mind the idea of playing with a 35# trainer.
> 
> I can still shoot my 70, and shoot it better now, but my standards have shifted, and i realize that i can't meet those standards on a Bow that heavy for very long, certainly not an all day tournament, or a 900 round.


yep, your situation is very similar to mine, i have a 65# i can shoot much better than before, but i enjoy shooting tons of arrows while practicing, i could only practice for 15-25 mins with the 65#, but it is a good bow and is a good back up to have


----------



## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

Excellent post, like many others I made the same mistake. I have bows ranging from 34-47, I can handle 34 much better. I understand the often written advice to hunt with the heaviest bow that you can accurately shoot. But, What does accurately shoot mean, one arrow, maybe the second or third that you shoot hits the mark? I think far too many of us that don't have a lot of experience don't interpret this advice correctly, and jump up to higher weights sooner than necessary. Not trying to start a draw weight debate, but 40#'s is more than enough for deer.

I hope every new shooter reads Kegans post.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

gun, I think anyone who shoots targets competitively can attest that the game is a numbers game, as in controlling the bow for numbers of arrows shot. In that regard, a person who has to shoot only one or two in a demand situation, like hunting, might just be accurate enough in control for one or two but the bow will win soon after. There's probably a fine line there.

The issue I would see come up is "how did the person get accurate with the heavier bow"? IOW, trying to work up to it without having a foundation to apply is different than being able to apply your control of many arrows to a bow that will let that happen but just for a few.


----------



## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time. It's a good, well written personal perspective and I hope some folks both new and old to archery will read it and learn from your honest experience.

👍
GB


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

I starting at 70lbs... still shoot that bow. Got quite accurate out to 40 yards (I don't shoot all that well past point on), and wouldn't call it a handicap. I still think a methodical approach to shooting and form is more important than the draw weight number (assuming you can pull the thing to anchor). That said, I do enjoy the 56# Omega I have now. I can see where draw weight could be a handicap, but I don't think everyone needs to start out crazy low either.


----------



## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

Good point, makes sense



Sanford said:


> gun, I think anyone who shoots targets competitively can attest that the game is a numbers game, as in controlling the bow for numbers of arrows shot. In that regard, a person who has to shoot only one or two in a demand situation, like hunting, might just be accurate enough in control for one or two but the bow will win soon after. There's probably a fine line there.
> 
> The issue I would see come up is "how did the person get accurate with the heavier bow"? IOW, trying to work up to it without having a foundation to apply is different than being able to apply your control of many arrows to a bow that will let that happen but just for a few.


----------



## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

Kegan earns even more respect! Great post!!!


----------



## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

This is a great read. Makes me wonder is I should shed a few pounds off my limbs. hmm...


----------



## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

The reasoning behind this post is why I have gone with ILF rigs. You can get pretty decent limbs for not too much money and work your way up or down. With that said, I will probably own one of Kegans bows someday.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

patrick2cents said:


> I starting at 70lbs... still shoot that bow. Got quite accurate out to 40 yards (I don't shoot all that well past point on), and wouldn't call it a handicap. I still think a methodical approach to shooting and form is more important than the draw weight number (assuming you can pull the thing to anchor). That said, I do enjoy the 56# Omega I have now. I can see where draw weight could be a handicap, but I don't think everyone needs to start out crazy low either.


Patrick, certainly a valid and useful perspective. I would comment on two things.

First, judging from what I believe was your profile picture some time back (and I apologize if I'm thinking of somebody else), it should be noted that you are an _exceptionally_ strong person, as in can probably lift 100 pounds or move above your head with one hand. In that context, what is too heavy for some might be just fine for you.

Second, crazy is a matter of perspective, and like the term heavy, relative. Some people would consider the accuracy goals of top shooters to be crazy. I know when they do the shoot off at NFAA 3D nationals, I consider what the guys can do with compound bows totally nuts. Would put most rifle shooters to shame, or at least most rifle shooters proud of their marksmanship 

Secondly (B, addendum to first second), when first learning form, much of that is drawing and holding alignment. It is more than getting to anchor, it is _how_ you get to anchor, and being able to balance and control those forces while holding, allowing your body to relax under relatively high strain. Of course, there's much more to shooting than that, but these aspects affect the effort required to get to anchor and hold. So, while somebody might actually have the strength to shoot a 50# bow all day, _if they're doing it properly_, most people do not naturally use their body in the most efficient manner, particularly when learning a new movement. Seasoned weight lifters used to doing dumbell rows could perhaps fall into good alignment out of habit, and get an anchor point that allowed maintaining that alignment off of the bat, particularly with some good instruction. However, _most_ new archers I see pull with their bicep, forearm, and rotator cuff as much as their back, elbow low and forward, thinking they're just going to touch the corner of their mouth the same as they would if they were scraping off a piece of leftover sandwich. They might be strong enough to get to anchor (what George Chapman called 'Muscling the Shot', which is actually a problem, in that they're going to learn to shoot that way, and as far as any reasonable standard of accuracy, it's just not going to happen. A lighter bow won't fix that, but it will allow them to take their time, and hopefully apply better methods instead of dumping the arrow as soon as they get there because, whether they realize it or not, their body isn't comfortable holding at anchor.

Secondly (C), there is a good point that comes with the points you bring up. A light bow is not enough, it just gives the beginning archer an opportunity. On the flip side, it can allow shooters a marginal amount of success doing things really, really poorly, from a biomechanical perspective, in a way that is totally impossible to duplicate when it comes to applying the same technique to heavier rigs.


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

Barney,

Solid points-I don't think I've had a picture up on my profile (unless we are talking about Facebook), but relative to an individual was more the point I was getting at none the less.

I should state that goals have to be noted, as I mainly care about hunting standard north American game (so deer size animals) and so my comments should be taken in light of my accuracy goal of reliably hitting a kill zone inside of 30ish yards (with my actual hunting range being less). 

I totally agree that how you get to anchor and what your form is at anchor is paramount. I am very picky about form, and that was also what my comments were geared towards. You can also muscle a 20 lb bow and pluck away and not hit much (that was what my first bow experience was like) there needs to be a concentration on form and getting the most learning out of every shot made-regardless of what you pick up.

None the less, solid post by Kegan, and I know he deals with a lot of folks via email and is really really good to deal with. I certainly don't disagree with what has been written, just wanted to add a caveat.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I appreciate all the feedback and the kind words, everyone. As I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with heavy bows themselves, and for folks like Patrick, Ray, and Rick who are physically more powerful than your average archer- "heavy" is relative. I personally have met quite a few people who could start with 40-45# and maintain all the control in the world. Especially guys coming from heavy compounds with aggressive cams. There's also no reason to stay with the lighter bow if you reach your accuracy goal and want more.

I just think many of us expect accuracy just to be a matter of time. We can anchor and shoot the heavy bow, so if we just practice with _it_ we'll get better. I was absolutely convinced of it beyond a shadow of a doubt. It was a slow progression though. It took me over two years of shooting NFAA faces to get from 190 to 220 with the heavy stuff. It took me less than half that to go from 220 to 250. I had always thought you needed a "target" set up to break 240, and that if I ever got to 240 I would be at the "top of my game". Now, if I shoot a 240 I'm having a bad day, and expect to do better. 

Not everyone is the same, but we should all be able to shoot about the same (within reason).


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Good thread. I'm another one who started at 55# and went up...until I decided that I really wanted to get better and then I came way down. I'm not necessarily done shooting heavier bows. I have no intention of parting with my 55# Howatt Hunter or my old 65# Saxon American...or is it American Saxon? I've even considered getting some 50ish limbs for my Omega. I still think about hunting bigger stuff even though I have a hard time finding a place to hunt deer.

I think after learning some on the "lighter" bows I think I could do a better job with the heavier ones should I ever get a hunting opportunity that calls for them.

The simple fact is that most of my shooting is targets, small game and the rare chance at a white tail. It's all hard enough so why burden myself with weight that I don't need?

The one notion that keeps me flirting with the idea of going up a few pounds is reaching out just a bit further but that also requires repeatable accuracy.


----------



## Longbow91115 (May 4, 2009)

The question I have regarding this is, if not everyone is the same, then why is the recommended poundage almost always the same? I see posts that give no detail as to the person's physical ability but the recommended set up is almost always a 30# Samick Sage. Without knowing whether the person is a professional nail artist or a gandy dancer that seems to be the general prescription. I have avoided posting on this hoping to glean some knowledge and find the answer to this. 

Now if the person happens to fall into the 6' 210#, broad at the shoulder, narrow at the hip, lumber jack sort, how does a 30# bow make this person engage the muscles of the back? If said person doesn't know and the bow doesn't challenge them, how will they find form? Bad form and improper use of the shoulder to draw the bow is self correcting in my mind, if the bow makes the person work. I'm not talking super heavy weight. I do believe that too heavy of a bow is counter-productive. At any rate, how or when was the conclusion reached that 30# is the ideal? That is a conclusion that one can come to quite easily by just reading these forums. 

I hope that this has not come off as argumentative as that is not the intention. I'm sure I can point to post after post where arrow weight and spine is dialed down to the gnat's behind and always correctly. But there is always a constant formula there. Draw weight I see handed out specifically without a whole lot of information to base it on.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I've never heard 30 pounds offered as the "ideal" for everybody.

What I have read regarding "serious" archery training is that they start with NO weight or just work with light stretch bands. Then they progress to a very light bow and go on from there. I don't teach archery but I suspect that we're all the same in that less weight is better in the beginning.

It seems more likely that stature and strength would do more to determine the ending point than the starting point.

Again, for me, the issue is more about what I'm after and using the right tool for the right job. I shoot more tin cans and paper than anything. Don't need much weight for that and I like to hit it. Next would be squirrels and rabbits. They're pretty small so I need accuracy and precision more than punch.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Longbow91115 said:


> The question I have regarding this is, if not everyone is the same, then why is the recommended poundage almost always the same? I see posts that give no detail as to the person's physical ability but the recommended set up is almost always a 30# Samick Sage. Without knowing whether the person is a professional nail artist or a gandy dancer that seems to be the general prescription. I have avoided posting on this hoping to glean some knowledge and find the answer to this.
> 
> Now if the person happens to fall into the 6' 210#, broad at the shoulder, narrow at the hip, lumber jack sort, how does a 30# bow make this person engage the muscles of the back? If said person doesn't know and the bow doesn't challenge them, how will they find form? Bad form and improper use of the shoulder to draw the bow is self correcting in my mind, if the bow makes the person work. I'm not talking super heavy weight. I do believe that too heavy of a bow is counter-productive. At any rate, how or when was the conclusion reached that 30# is the ideal? That is a conclusion that one can come to quite easily by just reading these forums.
> 
> I hope that this has not come off as argumentative as that is not the intention. I'm sure I can point to post after post where arrow weight and spine is dialed down to the gnat's behind and always correctly. But there is always a constant formula there. Draw weight I see handed out specifically without a whole lot of information to base it on.


It simply isn't possible to start too light. If a person was very serious about being as accurate as possible the recommendation would be down at 20-25# on the fingers as is generally accepted with Olympic training. 30# is more of a compromise which enables an archer to get up to a hunting weight in one or perhaps two jumps.

-Grant


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

grantmac said:


> It simply isn't possible to start too light. If a person was very serious about being as accurate as possible the recommendation would be down at 20-25# on the fingers as is generally accepted with Olympic training. 30# is more of a compromise which enables an archer to get up to a hunting weight in one or perhaps two jumps.
> 
> -Grant


Can't say as I fully agree. If a guy wants to buy a recurve from x-mas practice all year and then tag a buck come October a 40lb bow for a youngish adult male of average size is plenty low enough. They can practice and hunt with that same bow. Now this guys goals are not to be able to win the Olympics or shoot a 280. He wants to be able to take a buck out to twenty and that perfectly fine. He'll get hooked and start shooting for serious groups soon enough. However, if that guy gets a 25lb bow he'll be sorely disappointed by the time deer season rolls around and can't afford a tag or a mount! Quite a bit of cash if he moves up from 25-30-35-40 in both limbs, arrows, and maybe a string.


----------



## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

jakeemt said:


> Can't say as I fully agree. If a guy wants to buy a recurve from x-mas practice all year and then tag a buck come October a 40lb bow for a youngish adult male of average size is plenty low enough. They can practice and hunt with that same bow. Now this guys goals are not to be able to win the Olympics or shoot a 280. He wants to be able to take a buck out to twenty and that perfectly fine. He'll get hooked and start shooting for serious groups soon enough. However, if that guy gets a 25lb bow he'll be sorely disappointed by the time deer season rolls around and can't afford a tag or a mount! Quite a bit of cash if he moves up from 25-30-35-40 in both limbs, arrows, and maybe a string.


No one is saying that can't be done, it certainly can.
What's being said is that it isn't the path to optimal performance from the shooting machine. The one pulling the string.
It's also why ILF is such a great system. The cost to move up in weight can be as cheep as swapping limbs with someone. Buying used or new as low as $70 a set on sale.
There is no good argument for starting at high weights anymore. Not with knowing what we know about proven training methods and the equipment available today.

GB


----------



## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

Well, for one thing, a 20# bow will not launch an arrow with the "snap" and authority of a 30#er, and so on....My Sage 55# launches arrows like a rocket compared to my 35# Pearson SuperJet, not to mention the arrows shoot flatter, less arc. It gives one the feeling of superior power. But, truth is, Once I've adjusted to the lower draw weight, I can out-shoot the Sage every time. Consistently. Now I have an "in-between" Bear Grizzly at 45#...which seems just about perfect.
The Sage would still be my choice for larger-than-deer sized game, and definitely for dangerous game simply for it's penetration factor...and I say that knowing my range would have to be decreased to compensate. Males have this whole macho thing goin' on where if John has a 30# bow, Jack has to "one-up" him with a 40#er, and so on...not taking body mass or strength (or age!) into consideration. Watch a woman shoot...they don't have these testosterone-driven hang-ups, and can usually out-shoot the guys because they use the right bow for them, the world be damned. We could learn a thing or two.....
All the previous points you guys made are valid and well-taken. The novice shooter must decide what will be "overbowing" and what won't. Unfortunately. most of us have already written the check by the time we figure it out.
Thanks, Kegan, for a thought-provoking and insightful thread without the usual attached catfight!


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

not trying to say you shouldn't go light just that different goals have different needs. I know I am not poor but by no means well off. Between family, rent, bills, car maintanence ect. dropping 250 bucks on a bow is a big expense. Add another 50-100 bucks for arrows for the guy that doesn't roll his own and that's even more. adding 70x2 + arrows x2 can be a lot. so in some case starting a little heavier say 40 or even 45 is not the w3orst idea in the world. Assuming you don't want to be a serious competitor right away. Not trying to start a flame war I totally agree with kegans point. Just have a little different perspective on it than some. though your points are valid to.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I guess most people could start with a "hunting weight" bow and manage to hit pie place once in a while at 15 yards and go kill a deer. The problem some of us run into is that we later decide that we'd like to shoot that 280 and realize that we have to start over by unlearning everything first.

I have a 15# recurve that hasn't been used since my kids were very young. I even gave it away once because I couldn't imagine a use for it. Eventually, it came back to me and I'm going to keep it now.

I don't go out of my way to teach archery (just because I don't think I'm qualified) but, should I be charged with helping somebody get started, it's a stretch band first and then the 15# bow.


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

This is where I have a disagreement... I don't think you'll have as bad of an accuracy disadvantage as many imply if you start with a hunting weight bow (which could be as low as 35-40 lbs). Implying pie plate accuracy is all that can be achieved at 15 yards isn't really true.


----------



## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

I saw a post by Viper a while back stating that optimum draw weight is like a bell shaped curve, too low or too high are difficult to shoot, and that depends on the individual. I hope I'm not providing incorrect information using Viper as a source, maybe he will post on this with his thoughts.

Anyway, it makes sense that each of us has a draw weight range that best suits us, and that it is different for each of us. Since I have been shooting ILF, I am finding that mid to upper 30 #'s is best for me. I have some limbs that I can swap out and too heavy or too light both are more difficult to shoot. I can shoot 50#'s but I'm pretty sure I would quickly develop bad habits if I shot that weight too much. But, I also believe I can gradually broaden my range as my form improves.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Longbow91115, jakeemt, and patrick2cents, While I agree that starting at 20# isn't necessary for most folks just looking to hunt, I also think there's more validity to starting "too light" than there is to starting "slightly heavy" if for nothing else than a learning perspective. I agree, most of the folks I've met could start with 40# at their draw and learn how to shoot pretty well out to 25-30 yards with complete control. That said, I've shot 10# PVC bows and even with mismatched arrows they teach you more in an hour than two weeks on the blank bale with your normal bow. There's no forgiveness to poor back tension or release. A heavy bow doesn't "help" you use the right muscles, you wind up using more muscles in the wrong way. You can easily over power a light bow, but you won't get the arrow flying anywhere it should be.

I find the objection people have to spending money on traditional equipment a bit ridiculous anymore. One fellow posted a few months back that he bought a 50# recurve to start because he didn't have the money to buy a lighter bow, and then a heavier bow later- yet in his signature he had three almost brand new compounds that with accessories and arrows cost more than every truck I have ever owned_ combined_. Yet, $245 for a Sage and a spare set of limbs was simply too much? The other argument that arrows have to be matched to every bow you have. If you buy a 35# bow to start, and a set of 45# limbs to hunt, you can buy the arrows for the 45# and just switch to a heavy point ($6) for the lighter limbs. No need for two arrows, as the lighter bow is just to learn the basics with anyway, or hunt small game/targets. In the end most of these people don't wind up with just that one bow, having to buy another one anyway. Or worse, they lose interest and stick with their compounds and the recurve just sits in the closet, going to waste.

For most adult males, especially coming from a compound, 40# is probably fine, but the idea of "just a little more is ok" is what gets most of us in trouble. How many people start at 50# because that's what they think they need to hunt? Everyone calls 35-40# "light" and I suppose compared to 60-70# compounds it is but it's more than enough for deer, turkey, and small game. The idea of control when you first begin is hard to interpret. I certainly thought I had control when I moved through draw weights so quickly, and many people will try a friends bow at 45#, 50#, sometimes even more, and upon getting it back and firing a few arrows toward the target think they're doing alright... all they need is more practice... well it never comes. That magical time where it suddenly all starts to fall in place never came for me, I had to drop weight to get there. I see the same happening to others as well. 

At ETAR I've been very lucky to shoot with many other archers, and watch many more shoot. There are lots of folks snap shooting heavy bows, who seem to have the exact same idea that I did, "it will come in time." If only we realized it has to come first and foremost before anything else, we'd all probably save more time, money, and frustration than any a 25# bow would cause.


----------



## Longbow91115 (May 4, 2009)

Just trying to understand here. So what specific revelations did you have when you went lower in weight? What was it that you discovered or changed in your shooting?


----------



## Longbow91115 (May 4, 2009)

Let me rephrase that...What is the single, most important, aspect that shooting a lighter bow made more apparent?


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Longbow91115 said:


> Let me rephrase that...What is the single, most important, aspect that shooting a lighter bow made more apparent?


I learned how much I was getting in the way of the bow. 

A heavier bow will pull the string cleanly from your fingers and fire an arrow downrange pretty well. Shooting a 10# stick of PVC if I didn't completely relax my hand (or if I tried to "open" my fingers on the release) the arrow would barely catch the target and go anywhere but straight. If I was pulling with my arms my follow through was nonexistent, and the release would get worse. These issues don't go away with more draw weight, they're just covered up. 

A lighter bow removes any sort of tension but also any sort of forgiveness on release. If you do everything the same you will group, even if the bow and arrow aren't tuned to each other. It's a lot harder to group with a really light bow than a really heavy one. I had to quit "trying" to make the shot happen with the PVC bow, but rather learnt o let it happen and focus on just doing what I was supposed to do.


----------



## Longbow91115 (May 4, 2009)

Ok, that makes sense. Some people you just have to change the color of the crayon before they understand.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

For me, when i dropped lower, the first thing i noticed was how easy the draw felt. At first, i had mixed emotions on it. Easy is nice, but i lost the bazooka appeal.

But as I played with it, i noticed that i could slow down and think about what I was doing in the shot sequence, real time. I also realized, particularly when switching back to the heavy bows, that when I shot the lighter rig, I had less odd flyers, and when they did fly out, the margin of error was less. Shortly after coming back down, maybe a month, the groups began to shrink overall, the really good groups became more regular, and I often got the impression that the arrows were landing way better than I could be shooting, like there was some kind of auto correction kicking in.

Of course, going lighter doesn't fix anything automatically, nor does it compensate for lack of practice, but6 if it is light enough, it simply provides an opportunity.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Longbow91115 said:


> Ok, that makes sense. Some people you just have to change the color of the crayon before they understand.


Here's my take on the subject, and my crayon color. A light bow does two things. It exposes one's flaws, and it provides a platform to work them out.

One poster above mentioned that the heavier bow, not even necessarily overbowed, will challenge ones form development and help "self-correct" form errors. It's the exact opposite, as the heavy bow "hides" one's errors and hinders development. As a matter of fact, after longer periods, the heavy bow will aid in deterioration of form, as the self-correcting aspect is always operating under a false impression on many other aspects of form other than holding weight on the muscles.

Concentrating only on what draw weight one wants to shoot or "can" shoot is like coloring the whole picture page with one crayon color. For the full picture, you need a different crayon for different parts of the picture. That's why a light bow for a strong man is not about his strength or weakness.


----------



## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

It's a lot more fun to stack arrows in the "X" ring with 40# than to be all over the place at 50#. I learned that lesson the hard way.


----------



## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Great thread and something I have begun to realize myself. I rushed into shooting a hunting weight bow far too quickly and it was a difficult task to undo. Now I shoot a moderate weight bow and work on form all year till I am confident I am shooting as well as I can. That is the only time I move up in weight. Once the season is over I drop back down and start over again. Anyone that shoot reguraly can benefit from shooting abow that when you are at anchor the weight of the bow does not influence your shot, allowing you time to analyze your grip on the string, your anchor, your shoulder alignment, etc.


----------



## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

For hunting, it depends on the game. There are minimums of bow weight for certain game. That is just reality. For target and pounding groups and a static style of shooting a lighter bow is a great benefit. In total agreement for a novice archer learning good form with a lighter bow. For a more fluid style of shooting as you started with, many bowhunters need a given bow weight for the right feel and the weight taking the string. A heavier bow will shoot better, if you can handle it.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

dragonheart II said:


> For hunting, it depends on the game. There are minimums of bow weight for certain game. That is just reality. For target and pounding groups and a static style of shooting a lighter bow is a great benefit. In total agreement for a novice archer learning good form with a lighter bow. For a more fluid style of shooting as you started with, many bowhunters need a given bow weight for the right feel and the weight taking the string. A heavier bow will shoot better, if you can handle it.


However if you get into the habit of a "fluid style" and heavy weights before you've reached your potential you are now limited to that style alone. I've met many people who shoot with a "fluid style" and claim to need a heavier bow, but these folks are no where near as accurate as they could be.

There's nothing wrong with moving up in weight, however many of us can shoot a lot better than we do. We need to give ourselves the opportunity to reach that level before we lock ourselves into a certain style or type of gear.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

dragonheart II said:


> For hunting, it depends on the game. There are minimums of bow weight for certain game. That is just reality. For target and pounding groups and a static style of shooting a lighter bow is a great benefit. In total agreement for a novice archer learning good form with a lighter bow. For a more fluid style of shooting as you started with, many bowhunters need a given bow weight for the right feel and the weight taking the string. A heavier bow will shoot better, if you can handle it.


We read this a lot but I'm not sure I really get it. First of all, some of the most successful hunters that I know of also great target shooters...Jimmy Blackmon is a good example. I don't mean to speak for him but I'll bet money that he would disagree with that stuff about having to make up your mind whether your going to be a hunter or a target shooter. He has probably held more titles and shot higher scores than those who said it too.

Beyond that, hunting is my greatest archery interest. However, the hunting I have available isn't very good so I shoot more targets than game. My intention is to hit whatever I shoot at. 

Granted, it's possible to be a very successful hunter without being a very good shot...which is also why it probably isn't a very good measure of shooting skill.

My own hunting experience tells me that SLOW and deliberate is the way to do everything in the woods. If you can be still, you can get game right in your lap, literally. If you can draw without them seeing or being bothered by your movement, you can shoot them while they're aren't moving much and are unaware.

I can't imagine tromping through the woods flushing game as you might when shot gunning to be very productive for anybody except those packing a shot gun...though I would like to hunt pheasants and ducks with a bow someday.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I used to love jumping rabbits in heavy cover and shooting them on the run with my 12 gauge. I don't think an arrow would even make it through the brush.

I've shot a lot of rabbits with a bow but I hunt completely different. I sneak up on them and shoot them while they sit. If I can spot them before they jump and IF I can get a clear shot through the cover, the shooting is close, slow and easy...and slow.

I don't think deer are that much different. I didn't get to deer hunt much this year but I had about 8 deer in easy shooting distance. One knew I was there and he would have been in the next county before I could have drawn the bow. He was looking right at me so even if I ripped off a shot, he would have just stepped out of the way. That's what I would do, LOL. All the others were obstructed by cover.

In any case, moving at a snail's pace seems to be the answer more often than not.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PipXmBLU0wY

How do you think he was taught to shoot? That young man is going to kill lots of game and probably take lots of target titles too.


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MGF said:


> Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PipXmBLU0wY
> 
> How do you think he was taught to shoot? That young man is going to kill lots of game and probably take lots of target titles too.


Did you watch his form? That is the story I think right there. I know you all might by taken by his aerial shooting an all, but he didn't do anything there spectacular, other than most of can't do it like he did, but again... look at his form. He essentially was shooting a candle in the air, not to take anything from the kid, I agree with your assessment, but whoever taught this kid is the one that nailed it, and should be proud.... and I'm assuming it's blackmon... Terrific Job and that kid has great sense of "feel" as to exactly what's right with the shot!... exhortations to both... Aloha...


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Did you watch his form? That is the story I think right there. I know you all might by taken by his aerial shooting an all, but he didn't do anything there spectacular, other than most of can't do it like he did, but again... look at his form. He essentially was shooting a candle in the air, not to take anything from the kid, I agree with your assessment, but whoever taught this kid is the one that nailed it, and should be proud.... and I'm assuming it's blackmon... Terrific Job and that kid has great sense of "feel" as to exactly what's right with the shot!... exhortations to both... Aloha...


I agree!


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

MGF said:


> Granted, it's possible to be a very successful hunter without being a very good shot...which is also why it probably isn't a very good measure of shooting skill.


And likewise, it's possible to be a darn good shot, and a very unsuccessful hunter


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

MGF said:


> Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PipXmBLU0wY
> 
> How do you think he was taught to shoot? That young man is going to kill lots of game and probably take lots of target titles too.


I thought I might be the only once that insisted we be quiet when we stalk foam animals.

Not only is that guy a great shot, but he's a super example of fun loving attitude. I'd love to go shooting with him if we ever bump into each other


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BarneySlayer said:


> And likewise, it's possible to be a darn good shot, and a very unsuccessful hunter


Absolutely.


----------



## dragonheart II (Aug 20, 2010)

kegan said:


> However if you get into the habit of a "fluid style" and heavy weights before you've reached your potential you are now limited to that style alone. I've met many people who shoot with a "fluid style" and claim to need a heavier bow, but these folks are no where near as accurate as they could be.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with moving up in weight, however many of us can shoot a lot better than we do. We need to give ourselves the opportunity to reach that level before we lock ourselves into a certain style or type of gear.


For a hunting archer there is no reason to change. Sounds like you really enjoy both hunting an target. Choosing to shoot fluid and heavy weight bows has advantages for the hunting rcher, and does not limit his potential, in fact it enhances it. You are speaking of all out target archery, shooting groups. That is a very static situation. Bowhunting many times calls for practical shooting and fluid instinctive shooting lends itself to that application. If the accuaracy you wish to obtain is all out target accuracy, then lower bow weight is the way to go.


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

dragonheart II said:


> For a hunting archer there is no reason to change. Sounds like you really enjoy both hunting an target. Choosing to shoot fluid and heavy weight bows has advantages for the hunting rcher, and does not limit his potential, in fact it enhances it. You are speaking of all out target archery, shooting groups. That is a very static situation. Bowhunting many times calls for practical shooting and fluid instinctive shooting lends itself to that application. If the accuaracy you wish to obtain is all out target accuracy, then lower bow weight is the way to go.


I have to disagree here.... shooting targets and shooting at a live animals is the same in principal and in practice. If you can shoot well at the range, you have the foundation to shoot well in the woods. In fact, I would argue if your target (talking big game here) isn't relaxed and unaware enough for you to take a nice shot, you really shouldn't be shooting at it.


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Kegan, great post. 

This March I will be have been shooting traditional bows for 3 years. My first bow was a 50# Samick Sage, I met Kegan shortly after that, and had just purchased a used 50# longbow. After shooting with Kegan, my next bow was a 60#, 62" Omega Original. If I recall Kegan was shooting over 60# at the time. 

I could shoot that 60# bow OK, or so I thought. I was accurate one day, and losing arrows the next. I was lucky to draw the bow 27". I went on to buy several heavier bows up to 70#. My accuracy never improved. 

I have since sold all of the heavy bows. My heaviest bow pulls 50# and I don't shoot it much. I have dropped weight gradually since then. And at each drop in poundage I have gained accuracy. I have several longbows in the Mid 40's, and I can shoot them well for 3D, shooting 1 arrow at a time, with time to recharge between shots. But as soon as I'm pulling 60 arrows on an indoor FITA 600 round forget it. I can't keep up. This year I've dropped to 36# shooting paper, and I have easily added nearly 50 points to my average. Much of that is due to really working on my form, and much of my form work up to this point has been done with bows in the 40-42# range. And I almost forgot, my draw length increased to nearly 29.5".

Shooting the heavy bows has given me a really bad habit that I fight with all the time. And that's plucking the string. At times, I have the worst pluck and I can send an arrow waaaaay to the right of my intended target with one lousy pluck of the string (I am right handed). I will often have a difficult time finding a softer release from the lighter draw weight. I am slowly reprogramming myself to have a cleaner, smoother, and softer release. However, shooting bows in the Mid 30's I find myself having absolute control of every step of my shot sequence. And I can shoot all day long without fatiguing. I am not getting any younger and I shoot a lot. Hundreds of shots a week with a heavy bow starts to really hurt the old joints. 

Kegan has been my shooting buddy for nearly 2 1/2 years. He knows his bows. We have discussed the prudence of shooting a draw weight that you can absolutely dominate. The archer should dominate the bow, not the other way around. Arrow technology is such that you can really get some great performance out of lighter draw weights, shooting light weight carbons. You no longer need to shoot a heavy draw weight in order to push a heavy arrow.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

dragonheart II said:


> For a hunting archer there is no reason to change. Sounds like you really enjoy both hunting an target. Choosing to shoot fluid and heavy weight bows has advantages for the hunting rcher, and does not limit his potential, in fact it enhances it. You are speaking of all out target archery, shooting groups. That is a very static situation. Bowhunting many times calls for practical shooting and fluid instinctive shooting lends itself to that application. If the accuaracy you wish to obtain is all out target accuracy, then lower bow weight is the way to go.


Even though I've come to enjoy targets in the off season, my single most driving goal is to kill game for the freezer. I never once killed an animal shooting heavy bows quickly. Since dropping weight and slowing down, I've been able to shoot at least two deer and several small game animals every year for the past three-going-on-four years. Which is why I started this thread, so that others who are getting into hunting don't fall into the same bad habits and limiting mentality that I did, that there's only one way to shoot for hunting. There isn't. More animals are killed with compound bows every year than recurves, and I've yet to meet a target shooting bowhunter who has any issues with wounded animals or worrying blood trails. I agree completely with Patrick, that many of the "scenarios" that are created to justify snap shooting a heavy bow (fast moving animals, contorted shots, shot angles through bone) aren't shot opportunities, they're hail Mary's that shouldn't be taken if you're looking for a clean kill.

Lots of people are different. I'm sure there are folks who can reach their potential snap shooting a heavy bow. Heck I've talked to a couple. All of them can transition to targets just as easily as hunting. The whole point I'm trying to make though is that for the rest of the traditional bowhunting community who isn't capable of pin point repeatable accuracy snap shooting a heavy bow, there is plenty of reason to try something else rather than just limiting yourself to that singular style because it's "better for hunting". It's not. Hitting your animal in the vitals is better for hunting.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I think Kegan hit the nail on the head in his last post. This is for the next generation of bow hunters. Traditional archery is changing. The influence of target archery is getting stronger. This is creating a new breed of barebow shooters that demonstrate a higher degree of rigor in their form and require new training methods to develop their form. Folks are starting realize that sound fundamentals can significantly contribute to success, especially if the process of establishing these fundamentals starts at the beginning, when you first pick up a recurve. I would expect to see the population of snap shooters decline over time. So the question becomes, how do you advise your sons and daughters when they start shooting? Do you push them toward snap shooting because it was good enough for you, or do you take advantage of "new to traditional" ways of training and shooting that were less understood and prevalent when you learned to shoot? Knowledge moves forward. Just because this is called traditional archery does not mean it needs to be stuck in the past. If it were, we would be shooting bent sticks with home made arrows.


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Knowledge moves forward. Just because this is called traditional archery does not mean it needs to be stuck in the past. If it were, we would be shooting bent sticks with home made arrows.


Pretty sure a lot of guys do actually. Spend some time over at primitive archer or paleo planet man. That's some serious skill.


----------



## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

jakeemt said:


> Pretty sure a lot of guys do actually. Spend some time over at primitive archer or paleo planet man. That's some serious skill.


But even there (Primitive Archer, Dec/Jan issue), one major article is: "Killing paper: the importance of target shooting" !!!

As usual, Hank and Kevin have the right of it.


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

no one said you shouldn't shoot targets.......


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I read this the day it was posted and I'm a little late weighing in here because I was so taken aback with just how much truth was contained in the OP...and initially?...there really wasn't much for me to add except...Great post Kegan...very comprehensive....and very true. :thumbs_up

And now here it is a few days later and I'm still seeing this thread at the top of page 1....with several proclaiming is should be made "A Sticky"....as I'm left sitting back wondering...

*"Okay...so what's wrong with me then?"*

I mean if I know there's so much truth too the words?....(and there is)....then why do I own some bows that are several more pounds than I can properly and fully control with a slow deliberate form style?....Oh I can get off a dozen or two shots "properly" with them....on some days...other days I can get more but just as often times less....as with age and diabetes?...not all days are the same for me anymore...with strength and energy levels that can vary greatly from day too day...maybe that's what's wrong with me?

And then my next question becomes...

*"Okay...so what do I do about it?"*

I mean I see my doctors, take my vitamin supplements, monitor my sugar levels with a Glucometer several times daily and just re-filled my Glyburide prescription...so what do I do?...work harder at it?...or?...sell a couple of my bows and hard wax my favorite for wall hanging and fond memories?....because still there's days I can grab my 44# Herters and snap shoot to my hearts content all day long yet there's other days my 37# Bushmen Longbow feels heavy to me...so what do I do?...sell more bows, go even lower in weight and see more Doctors?

Nah. :laugh:

I will continue to enjoy shooting how I feel....I will continue sharing my experiences and stories....and I will continue enjoying my archery...(in what ever form it takes)...to my dying breath and just accept that I'm in a very different part of my archery journey than most....matter fact?...I have a local friend from A.T. here who will be arriving shortly to shoot with me...He wants to try my Widow (as he's never shot one before) and I want to try his Warf (as I've never shot one of those before)...coffee's on...strings are waxed...BH's are set and quivers are full and out back. 

Now I will openly admit that shots I take at 30yds probably contain all the challenge and pressure that others may experience at 60yds....but I'm okay with that and is probably why I don't often venture beyond 25yds....oddly enough?...that's 5yds further than I'd ever attempt a shot at game and exactly what the rules and limitations are for the local ASA 3D's...and Life is still good. 

Despite all that?...yes....indeed...Graet Post Kegan!...and you know the man who's coming to let me shoot his Warf!


----------



## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

I really like Kegans last post. It sums up the issues that many wanting to get in to hunting face, and we read it a lot, and I have asked the question, "is my set up enough for .......plug in the animal". Many times the responses are that we need 50 or 60# bows with super heavy arrows. So, we get a bow that has more weight than we are ready for and head down the path to poor habits, snap shooting, etc.etc. like many, I have been there.

Fortunately, enough knowledgeable people have posted that such heavy bows are not necessary, or even desirable if we can't handle them. Today's modern equipment used in bows, strings, arrows and broadheads allow us to get maximum performance from out rigs.

Hank, mentioned that Traditional archery is changing due to the influences of target shooters. While I'm not the archery historian that some are, it seems that modern archery is repeating itself, weren't the 50's and 60's abundant with target archers that were also hunters.

I think the main difference is that many today get into hunting 1st then think about target shooting, but already have the "too heavy" bow and the form that comes with it. Like Kegan, I am in the process of trying to fix all those bad habits and I'm relearning with a lighter bow, will hunt with one also.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I think Kegan hit the nail on the head in his last post. This is for the next generation of bow hunters. Traditional archery is changing. The influence of target archery is getting stronger. This is creating a new breed of barebow shooters that demonstrate a higher degree of rigor in their form and require new training methods to develop their form. Folks are starting realize that sound fundamentals can significantly contribute to success, especially if the process of establishing these fundamentals starts at the beginning, when you first pick up a recurve. I would expect to see the population of snap shooters decline over time. So the question becomes, how do you advise your sons and daughters when they start shooting? Do you push them toward snap shooting because it was good enough for you, or do you take advantage of "new to traditional" ways of training and shooting that were less understood and prevalent when you learned to shoot? Knowledge moves forward. Just because this is called traditional archery does not mean it needs to be stuck in the past. If it were, we would be shooting bent sticks with home made arrows.


Well I played kind of a dirty trick on my son.

When he was just a little guy I ditched the compound for stick bows...pretty heavy ones. The few guys at the club shooting stick bows couldn't hit anything so I ignored what they had to say and kind of taught myself. I did ok. There was no internet or Jimmy Blackmon videos. LOL

Years late when I came back to archery (and my son did too), I gave him one of my 60 pounders. Again we did ok and sort of went back and forth in our little private contests.

I decided that it wasn't good enough and started studying. I went to lighter bows. I left my son, who was still shooting the sixty pounder in our self taught fashion, way back in the dust. So much so that he didn't want to shoot with me anymore.

I tried to help him but the bow was just too heavy and he didn't want to budge. Eventually I got him to shoot my bow a little and he finally got it.

He's now waiting on a 45# Omega that should show up any day now. Now if he'll just listen to me about using a stretch band in front of a mirror, I'm guessing his shooting will get much better in a hurry.

I have other even lighter bows that he can use to train with if he wants.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

gun said:


> I really like Kegans last post. It sums up the issues that many wanting to get in to hunting face, and we read it a lot, and I have asked the question, "is my set up enough for .......plug in the animal". Many times the responses are that we need 50 or 60# bows with super heavy arrows. So, we get a bow that has more weight than we are ready for and head down the path to poor habits, snap shooting, etc.etc. like many, I have been there.
> 
> Fortunately, enough knowledgeable people have posted that such heavy bows are not necessary, or even desirable if we can't handle them. Today's modern equipment used in bows, strings, arrows and broadheads allow us to get maximum performance from out rigs.
> 
> ...


Modern equipment is more efficient and we do get more out of less bow but (to use him as an example again) Jimmy Blackmon has killed a ton of deer with 40# - 45# self bows.

It's obviously enough for deer sized game if you can hit them right. 

I'm carving one now (slow as it may be) and I'm aiming for about 45 pounds. There aren't any brown bears or cape buffalo around here so I think 45# is plenty.


----------



## T2SHOOTER (Feb 26, 2014)

While I shouldn't pip in, I will. The archery journey taken and where we are today speaks volumes, and all have a voice. The information here shaped my decisions, and the talent is amazing, but I'm still the one I have to please. I read Kegan's post and followed the others, but in the end it's our journey. With so much information to draw from, our choice is what counts. However, if we take the wrong path, we have only ourselves to blame. Enjoy your journey.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

There is lot of information out there...maybe too much because it presents a real challenge to one's critical thinking skills.

For one example, we have the claim that hunting requires a different style of shooting than target shooting. All we need to do is explain how it is that some of the most successful target shooters are also very successful hunters.

Even more elemental is the claim that hunting requires some style of shooting that is less effective on the target range? To buy this we have to believe that it's somehow possible to achieve accuracy and precision on running or, otherwise unpredictable, game but somehow can't demonstrate that accuracy and precision on a target that will sit still all day waiting for you?

I'm not the most traveled or successful hunter (especially "big game") but I've been doing one type of hunting or another and tromping the woods for 50 years now. I call BS. Swinging arms and other "quick" movements just spook game and generally disturb the whole forest.

We've all jumped deer on the way to our stand or, otherwise, been taken by surprise by them. It might not be impossible to fling an arrow and get lucky but I think Kegan was right when he described it as a non-shot or "hail Marry". In any case, it doesn't seem to make sense to structure your training or core methodology around those situations.

In any other kind of hunting, except some shot gunning, we use sights, scopes, rests etc. But for bow hunting we're supposed to believe that the best way is an "instinctive" snap shot with more weight than the archer can hold while exhibiting "good" form and control?

This stuff appears to come from a relatively small number of sources that have somehow gained a cult-like following over the decades.

None of that is to say that there aren't the rare few who can shoot well that way...but they seem to be just that. A rare few. Everybody else probably ought to shoot what they can hold and aim with repeatable form.


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I appreciate everyone offering constructive comments and examples, and that this thread hasn't degraded as many discussions about draw weight so inevitably do.

Steve, I don't think of any of this as new in traditional, but rather what was once popular become popular once more. I wasn't around forty or fifty years ago, but I've had the pleasure to speak with folks who had been active in archery during those times. One of the founding members of our local archery club has told me about his first deer with a bow, a 45# Bear recurve, that he pinned perfectly at something like 28 yards. They shot a lot of field archery, kept their draw weights in the 40-45# range, and paid a lot of attention to form. I think with so many coming from compounds, which were designed around a slow, methodical shot, it seems more natural to carry that over to traditional bows.

Bill, everyone shoots for different reasons. You aren't the only one shooting just for enjoyment and therapy. You're reaching your goals, which are different than a person who is focused on putting meat on the ground. Some goals share a similar path, others don't. 

I can't stress enough that I don't think there's anything wrong with shooting a heavy bow. I don't think there's anything wrong with shooting quickly. I'm even a proponent of instinctive shooting for hunting or 3D. I've met enough shooters and had enough success with it myself after relearning how to shoot to know that it's not the handicap, but rather poor form is. I just want to explain that the same ideology that says that hunting requires a different take on shooting should also be open minded enough to see that even within that statement there is freedom. Not everyone needs or wants to shoot a 70" ILF recurve. Many of us choose to do things a little differently. However it is that CHOICE that we are taking advantage of here. I choose to shoot a longbow, knowing that it may give up some qualities to the 70" ILF. It should be the same for shooting styles and techniques. If you CHOOSE to shoot a heavy bow quickly, that's your freedom, but if you feel you are forced to either by the "need" for power, the "superiority" of that style, or because the equipment you chose forces you into a particular style then you truly missing out.

My point is that we all have goals, and different personal ways of reaching them. However we shouldn't limit ourselves from the beginning of our journey. We should be able and willing to try many different styles honestly to see the merit of each, perhaps carrying lessons from these different venues back to our original (and preferred) method. We can never learn too much!


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I was listening to a radio program about chef's and restaurants on my my way to the range a couple of weeks ago. They were talking about the "new" farm to table movement happening in the industry. The guest was a major practitioner who pointed out that the concept is not new, but gets rediscovered and rebranded about every 15 years. It would be interesting to look back 15, 30 and 45 years to see what was important to traditional archery at that time (whether or not it was actually called traditional archery). What was the prevailing thoughts about equipment, form, and learning. Heck, we may need to go back 60 years just so that we are looking at information that is contemporary with many of the bows folks are shooting.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I started with my two sons. We began with lessons from a level 3 NAA coach (USA Archery today). My older son started with a 32 pound bow and was really smooth (today I recognize that though smooth, he shot very linear) and was doing well enough that his coach was recommending that he shoot our state indoor tournament. Awhile later I got him his first ILF bow, a Hoyt Gold Medalist with 40 pound Hoyt CRX limbs. I am not sure what he was pulling at his draw length (probably 31 inches at the time) but the weight of that bow caused his form to erode and he started plucking his shots. His smooth shot sequence disappeared. After some time and struggle I tried to convince him to use some 32 pound limbs that I had. He declined, wanting to use his bow. He finally got to the point where the frustration level peaked and he agreed to try the 32's. Turns out that was the last lesson he ever went to. He quit before giving the lighter bow a try.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

That's another good point...none of this is new. 

The "new" stuff seems to originate in what I'd call the "modern" era that came about with film and, later, television...roughly from Howard Hill on.

Fred Bear (for example) said things that have become axiomatic but never really made any sense to me. When we consider the context, we're forced to realize that he was a guy trying to sell bows and bow hunting to a bunch of rifle hunters. Suddenly it makes sense to downplay the kill because you're probably going to do less killing if you take your bow and leave your rifle at home. LOL

As much as being archers they were showman who sold film and archery equipment for a living.

The thought of burning a hole in the spot, gripping, ripping and magically hitting your exact mark is appealing. It sounds even better to say that while you miss targets on the range, you're going to magically knock down those trophy bucks...without all that hard, boring and tedious form work on the range where a piece of paper tells the good, bad and ugly. It's not hunting so it doesn't count. Yep, I'll buy one of those bridges.

I think that shooting a bow well is difficult, shooting a heavy bow well is more difficult and reliably taking game with any of it is even more difficult. I don't believe that there are any short cuts that really work.

Fortunately for the marketers many of us don't really have much actual hunting available so we can believe whatever we want without actually having to submit it to any honest testing...and when you repeat something often enough, folks start to believe it.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MGF said:


> Fortunately for the marketers many of us don't really have much actual hunting available so we can believe whatever we want without actually having to submit it to any honest testing...and when you repeat something often enough, folks start to believe it.


The compound hunters have decided that 80% let-off, levels and optics are the way to go but we only need to burn a hole in the spot. They shoot 70# and we shoot 70# FASTER. Yes, right. I think we can do without the cams and optics IF we shoot a bow of reasonable weight and use the aiming aids we already have...limit our distance and modify our accuracy expectations accordingly.

I am really hoping that shooting a bow is NOTHING like throwing a ball because I find that I can't throw a ball worth a darn. There has never been so much as a single basket ball, baseball or football team beating down my door to get me to throw a ball.

Sure, it's just like throwing a ball...but most of us can't really hit anything with a ball. LOL


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

kegan said:


> Bill, everyone shoots for different reasons. You aren't the only one shooting just for enjoyment and therapy. You're reaching your goals, which are different than a person who is focused on putting meat on the ground. Some goals share a similar path, others don't.
> 
> My point is that we all have goals, and different personal ways of reaching them. However we shouldn't limit ourselves from the beginning of our journey. We should be able and willing to try many different styles honestly to see the merit of each, perhaps carrying lessons from these different venues back to our original (and preferred) method. We can never learn too much!


Yep and Amen too all of that! :thumbs_up

And too add?....Kyle just left and we had good time...lots of strong coffee and BS but we also got to shoot each others bows....he got to shoot my widow (and even loosed a few from my herters and bushmen) and I got to shoot his warf (a first for me)...and I even shot his warf both ways...first slow deliberate form and then snapped a few out there...it was a very nice warf....a hoyt rambo (with BH cut-out) and SF Carbon+ limbs...about 38# @ 28"s....it shot great both ways and wasn't much difference at all (if any) in my groupings with it either way.

And now that I'm back inside and reading what's been added to this thread?...it sparked a thought and provoked a chuckle in thinking....

"What would it be like if you took all the original cast from MBB Vol #1 and had them all debating topics with each other in the same room?"

and how cool that would be...just imagine all these folks conversing their deepest thoughts in the same room with each other...

_Dale Karch, Gene & Barry Wensel, Ron LaClair, Roger Rothhaar, Rod Jenkins, Darryl Quidort, David Soza, Dean Torges, and Trish Ferrera,_

then add in some of the cast and characters from MBB Vol II such as....

_ Ty Pelfrey, Gary Davis, Larry Yien, Lauren Van Cleave, (and one of my personal favorites)...Steve Fausel along with Ken Beck of Black Widow Bows_

and now imagine the conversations that might take place between all those great archers...with all their different methods, forms, styles, venues and perspectives....would it not be very much like the very conversations we have here at A.T. amidst ourselves? 

Just thought I'd share that cause thinking of that?...just blew me away. :laugh:


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

MGF said:


> The compound hunters have decided that 80% let-off, levels and optics are the way to go but we only need to burn a hole in the spot. They shoot 70# and we shoot 70# FASTER. Yes, right. I think we can do without the cams and optics IF we shoot a bow of reasonable weight and use the aiming aids we already have...limit our distance and modify our accuracy expectations accordingly.
> 
> I am really hoping that shooting a bow is NOTHING like throwing a ball because I find that I can't throw a ball worth a darn. There has never been so much as a single basket ball, baseball or football team beating down my door to get me to throw a ball.
> 
> Sure, it's just like throwing a ball...but most of us can't really hit anything with a ball. LOL


Here is a compendium of first pitch failures. If shooting is like throwing, I hope none of these folks ever take up archery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IRQ0RjJ20Q


----------



## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

Great thread Keegan. This thread should be required reading for all new trad archers. Sticky this please.


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

MGF said:


> That's another good point...none of this is new.
> 
> The "new" stuff seems to originate in what I'd call the "modern" era that came about with film and, later, television...roughly from Howard Hill on.
> 
> ...


I have thought some of these things myself...

The truth is traditional bows are just like rifles, pistols and every other type of bow. They need to be aimed and form needs to be practiced. The idea that they are somehow different and you can just look at something and hit it with your subconscious does a lot of harm to the sport in my opinion. It's almost like martial arts... you get a lot of guys who show up expecting to be taught some sort of magic-when really it takes a lot of boring drills doing rather common movements to get good. 

It probably doesn't help that there are a lot of movies that portray archery like magic either....


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Does anyone here shoot a shotgun?


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Here is a compendium of first pitch failures. If shooting is like throwing, I hope none of these folks ever take up archery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IRQ0RjJ20Q


and then?....there those "Who Can"....


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jinx, I knew two fathers who had kid who were pitchers headed in the major league direction. Neither made it because of injuries (one non pitching related). They both, however, were being trained in pitching academies, getting the best form training from a very early age. They pitched year around under the direction of coaches in these academies, and not their local high school coaches. There is a lot of raw pitching talent in the minor leagues that never make the show. One reason is that they never learn to pitch. Now as far as Pedro goes, the Dodgers should have never let him go. They did not think he was big enough to be a major league starting pitcher. I guess they were wrong. Maybe the Dodger's World Series drought would not be so long if they had kept him.


----------



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Does anyone here shoot a shotgun?


Yes.


----------



## zonic (Aug 12, 2013)

rattus58 said:


> Does anyone here shoot a shotgun?


Me 2.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Trap is a great non archery example. Form appears to be important to the sport. I am sure you can grip it and rip it but learning the fine points would make you better. Are there lighter shotguns that folks use to learn on?


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Trap is a great non archery example. Form appears to be important to the sport. I am sure you can grip it and rip it but learning the fine points would make you better. Are there lighter shotguns that folks use to learn on?


20 guage youth 870. :grin: And you hit it on the head.... :thumbs_up


----------



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Jinx, I knew two fathers who had kid who were pitchers headed in the major league direction. Neither made it because of injuries (one non pitching related). They both, however, were being trained in pitching academies, getting the best form training from a very early age. They pitched year around under the direction of coaches in these academies, and not their local high school coaches. There is a lot of raw pitching talent in the minor leagues that never make the show. One reason is that they never learn to pitch. Now as far as Pedro goes, the Dodgers should have never let him go. They did not think he was big enough to be a major league starting pitcher. I guess they were wrong. Maybe the Dodger's World Series drought would not be so long if they had kept him.


Ahh...I wouldn't know Hank...I played a lot of Pony League and HS baseball but never really followed pro teams of any sport...I'm talking nothing...not soccer, not baseball and not even football...I can't stand too sit and watch others have fun...I rather "Do"...not watch or follow...always been that way...my baseball cards wound up in bicycle spokes. :laugh:

That said?...there's many things in life where I wind up thinking it a shame that education and training so often times trumps skill and experience...I guess because I see so much of it at work...just last week one of my best friends would up "Reaming" holes out in a $100,000 jet engine case that both he and I knew should've been done with a jig-grinder...but some intern with a diploma put more trust in his 4 years of furthered education and 5 years of experience over our 50+ years of combined training, skill and experience and?...got away with it as we wound up doing it his way.

As a result?...the job took twice as long...tooling costs were doubled...and my friend running the job spent the week nashing his teeth on a bottle of tums hoping and praying that the reamer didn't seize up and scrap out that $100,000 case...and the only way it didn't was through his experience as he kept turning the speeds and feeds down as the reamers became duller and duller and were trashed at the end of the job....and where my friend would've got either days off or fired had that case got destroyed?...the young knucklehead with the diploma winds up getting a pat on the back from bosses who they themselves have no clue what just happened there and just how lucky we all got?...ironic I tell ya. 

And believe it or not?.....this sort of thing often times rears it's ugly head in my own archery...just this morning I shot the first warf bow I ever seen (let alone shot) in my life that a friend brought over...the first few shots i took with it?...I displayed awesome form and control...it's heavy metal riser made it's DW feel deceptively light....and I laid out a softball sized group of his arrows with it...then I asked him if he minded if I snap shot some of my cheetahs off of it and commenced to clumping them all together in a knot! :laugh:

It was weird I tell ya...it was like after the first shot or two?....I could literally see the path the following arrows were going to take just the moment before I actually shot them.

Then he laughs and exclaims..."Man!...I could never shoot like that!"

However....that was at 15yds....and with his extremely disciplined form?....he typically shoots baseball sized groups at 30yds....with just about every bow I've ever seen or put in his hands...he's an awesome shot...but he doesn't even want to discuss aiming systems....to the point that it troubles him to even attempt to describe how he does it so I don't press the issue...I simply understand.

Yet here we are...one archer who quickly snaps off baseball size groups at 15yds and another archer who methodically shoots the same size groups at 30yds yet we both respect each others preferred skill and ability?....but?...then again?...he also claims I make the best coffee in town! :laugh:


----------



## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Trap is a great non archery example. Form appears to be important to the sport. I am sure you can grip it and rip it but learning the fine points would make you better. Are there lighter shotguns that folks use to learn on?


Many will use loads with either a lighter powder charge or a lighter shot charge and chilled shot to reduce felt recoil (and thus shooter fatigue). To light of a shotgun is probably a disadvantage.


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

RCL said:


> Many will use loads with either a lighter powder charge or a lighter shot charge and chilled shot to reduce felt recoil (and thus shooter fatigue). To light of a shotgun is probably a disadvantage.


It still comes down to being able to effect proper form... proper mount, proper fit (stock/cheek weld), proper focus, proper sight picture, proper action (when to squeeze, pull, or release the trigger) lead and follow through... proper form... :grin:

Draw weight, draw, anchor, sight picture, release and follow through.... Form... :grin:


----------



## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

rattus58 said:


> It still comes down to being able to effect proper form... proper mount, proper fit (stock/cheek weld), proper focus, proper sight picture, proper action (when to squeeze, pull, or release the trigger) lead and follow through... proper form... :grin:


I agree 100%......and proper form can be executed more easily if you aren't worn out, or jittery, from recoil (or too heavy a draw weight)......:wink:


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

RCL said:


> I agree 100%......and proper form can be executed more easily if you aren't worn out, or jittery, from recoil (or too heavy a draw weight)......:wink:


Sometimes takes an old man to figure that out.... :laugh:


----------



## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

rattus58 said:


> Sometimes takes an old man to figure that out.... :laugh:


rattus, all bows have release triggers. LOL I tried a release trigger on a trap gun exactly once. It was too strange to continue. Many places banned them for safety reasons - folks getting a broken bird, turn around with a loaded gun to look at the man firing the clays, and let off the trigger. Big surprise.


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Stone Bridge said:


> rattus, all bows have release triggers. LOL I tried a release trigger on a trap gun exactly once. It was too strange to continue. Many places banned them for safety reasons - folks getting a broken bird, turn around with a loaded gun to look at the man firing the clays, and let off the trigger. Big surprise.


I've never seen one, but apparently they are quite the thing for a lot of skillful shooters. I'd not be having one for myself nor would I be comfortable around anyplace that allows them other than where the shooter is "confined". There are, they say, both psychological and physiological reasons for them... but apparently our psychologies are not in synchronization with such apparatus... :laugh:

Oh.... and not "all bows".... :grin: Come into the modern world rather than sticking to those in stone... :laugh:


----------



## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Draw weights. We start were we want to start. Judging from my sons and I, 50# can actually work pretty well. Would we have had an easier time developing form, become better archers, if we'd started lighter? Possibly. OK, almost certainly. But it's equally possible that we'd simply have moved on to something else entirely. I encourage my friends to start by trying my 40# lender bow, then moving on to whatever they feel interests them. 

After struggling with our first 50's, my sons and I did the research and dropped to 40 and 45 - which helped tremendously. But the goal for us was always to move up as our strength and accuracy increased. It's what we really wanted to do. Today, a few years in, I'm still shooting every day. My bows gather no dust. Some days I shoot light, other days heavier. All of our bows present their own unique challenges. I have one of Kegan's Imperials, [email protected] It is the lightest bow I shoot on a regular basis. It's a wonderful bow, and I enjoy it tremendously, but it's so light compared to everything else I shoot that I find I have to really concentrate when I use it. That's a good thing. It has already helped me with general form and accuracy. I'm better with now with 70#+ recurves because of it.

I've come to think of lighter bows as being a moderately advanced thing.

Just be careful about being too "helpful" with your friends. If they want to start with something that seems excessively heavy, and aren't really interested in anything lighter, we do them no favors telling them they won't ever hit anything unless they begin at 30#. Everyone I know who still shoots started out overbowed. That seems to be one of the signs of someone who will enjoy this enough to stick with it over the long run.

And besides. Admit it. It really is _fun_ to be able to hit something with a 70# recurve


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I started in the FITA community, and taking lessons from the first day that I shot. Most of the folks I know started light, except the traditional guys. Therein lies the difference between the average trad shooter and the average FITA shooter. That is also why you can walk down the line at a FITA shoot and not see folks hands flying in all different directions when they release. Or folks that are collapsing with their arrow moving forward. Or folks with poor shooting posture which makes a consistent draw length difficult to achieve. Or folks that cannot get their shoulders properly aligned to the target. I have seen many archers who start heavy, and most cannot get the string to anchor, or if they can, it is because their shoulders collapse and they reach for the string with their head. We do not have to settle for that. New folks should be started down a better path. New archers look to the experienced archers for guidance. If we hand them a 40 pound bow on their first day then that is what they think they should be shooting. I am not embarrassed telling folks at the range that I am working on form with a 24.4 pound bow and I would be using a lighter bow if I could get one at my 32 inch draw length. My form bow is marked 18 pounds at 28 inches. When I work with a new archer I start them at 14 pounds. You need to command the bow in order to learn, not fight just to draw it. Archery is a sport of precision and not strength. But even strength sports require strong form in order to excel. I remember shot putters training with 8 pound shots in order to work on mechanics. Then they would move up to 10 and 12 before returning to 16 pounds. So people have a choice. If they want to start heavy then fine. But when someone asks for guidance they should be provided the better path, rather than the easy path. We need to make sure we are providing the proper guidance and let the archer make the final choice based upon their goals, desires and commitment.


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> But when someone asks for guidance they should be provided the better path


Hank, 

When someone asks a question in a forum environment, they are seeking knowledge to enhance their experience. They obviously did not find that knowledge elsewhere, or perhaps the forum was their first stop.

Since a forum contains a tremendous amount of question/answer dialogue, and identical questions are asked often on a daily basis, the perception of the general tenor of a forum (such as this one) will be one of "thematic", and quite often "formulaic", advice. 

This explains why a forum such as this one finds _"start with a low draw weight"_ mentioned so frequently. And yes, in the eyes of many readers, it is mentioned to the point of irritation and distraction. However, considering the nature and thrust of this forum, this excessive mention is nearly always in response to a *single person's* very important ... and often desperate ... quest for an answer. It happens that questions of this nature are asked multiple times a day, and therefore this theme reoccurs in equal proportion within those threads. So if one is reading AT threads every day, one will indeed see the same information, in infinite variation, during just about every perusal of the forum ... for years on end. 

If, as you have stated above, a person asks for guidance, then it falls upon the shoulders of forum members who desire to enter into the dialogue to seriously provide that person with a better path based upon their own experience, observation, and expertise. Initial (or remedial) draw weight is apparently one of the most important, impactive, and frequently asked questions (and topics of general discussion) that occur on this forum (witness this very thread!). It is incumbent upon the forum's persona to welcome and accommodate this vital issue to the ultimate benefit of the OP and other interested parties to that discussion. 

This (often maddening) repetition is certainly not limited to draw weight (Duco on poly comes immediately to mind!). Many folks hereabouts may well have a pet peeve concerning a particular repetitive theme and its resultant discussion. But the recipient of that repetitive answer and discussion is _*unique at that moment*_, and does not view it in that manner, but rather seeks to be beneficiary to an immediate, helpful, and courteous response to their important question. 

This sameness of inquiry is positive in that it implies an aggressively growing sport as well as growing membership within the forum's community. 

The _*perception*_ of this process is personal, and as such, skews with differing emotional resonance for each reader.


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

to put it another way... even though I've heard and given my sales presentations probably 3,000 times, if you're hearing it, it is the first time for you.

Aloha.. :beer:


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Not sure if I was miss-understood. I kind of think that Thin Man and I are saying the same thing. I am not at all impatient with questions that are asked many times. I have always felt that if someone is asking for an evaluation on form, or advise on the how to learn the craft, that we should provide serious and thoughtful responses. There may not be a single best way to learn to shoot, but there are better ways than others. It is our responsibility to provide the road map. It is up to the poster to determine if he is going to use it. By the same token, if someone just wants to have fun with a bow, then advice should be tailored toward that goal. I have straddled both sides of the fence. I have seen how both FITA and traditional shooters attack the sport. There are all ranges of skills on both side, but, across the board, I see more focus on learning the craft on the FITA side. Also, there is a more discernible process for how a bow is shot and how you learn to shoot on the FITA side. This is what we need to embrace, to a higher degree, in traditional archery. Traditional archers need to be soaking up every morsel of knowledge they can by studying what target shooters do. That does not mean that the form should be duplicated exactly. The fundamental elements, however, are applicable to all styles of shooting, and completely transferable. The context of my advice is that I am someone who decided five years ago to completely reshape how I shoot, applying FITA style form to traditional archery. It has been a much longer road than I had anticipated (it started as a one year plan). It is a difficult process but I have committed to seeing it through. I would not necessarily recommend my path unless you are driven and committed to the process, and a faster learning than I have been. I have learned a lot about the things that have slowed my progress, and I have corrected many of them. The biggest impediment was being too concerned about the next tournament rather than placing my focus on staying the course and not worrying about how I score. Now I practice hard with a light bow and shoot tournaments, not caring where I fall in the standings (and boy have I fallen in the standings !!!!). With my new focus, I expect that I am about a year away from being where I want to be. I have accepted the fact that in order to get better, I am going to have to accept getting worse in the process.


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Hank, 

I was reinforcing your excellent comment by flagging your quote in a banner and dissecting it further. That particular statement struck me as the essence of why many folks engage with this forum. It could be a "mission statement" (though I do abhor the average mission statement, for most sound a bit hollow and chirpy under the heat of the realities they represent). 

No misunderstanding here. I certainly hope that I was saying the same thing, as that was my intent.

(However, Rattus nailed it down with the most efficient brevity!)


----------



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Norm, you and Bill are examples of different goals, with different approaches. I don't see anything wrong with someone pursuing heavy bows simply for the joy of shooting them, but for bowhunters where small groups are paramount to clean kills, the lighter weight is almost necessitated.

Your shooting is personal, for your own pleasure. There's nothing wrong with that, and is an example of where starting light isn't necessary. Just as Bill simply shoots how he wants to for relaxation, you shoot how you want to for the challenge of shooting a heavier bow. The entire warbow community revolves around that same goal- shoot as heavy a bow as you can. That's the goal.

Your progress, learning from the lighter bows, is a perfect example for those that do hunt though just what steps can be required to reach that level of accuracy necessary. Most traditional bowhunters know that you need to practice a lot more than a compound shooter who dusts their bow off one week before season, however many of us accept(-ed) groups far larger because we also feel the need to manhandle a heavier bow for one reason or another. Our goal shouldn't be to shoot as much as we can pull, as we're looking to put meat on the ground. There are different ways to go about that that may be far better suited than snap shooting a bow that's too heavy to control.


----------



## portablevcb (May 10, 2014)

So, as a noob here I have considered the issues of draw weight and appreciate all of the comments.

My first bow, recommended by a shop, was a 50lb Martin Vision. Really, really nice bow, and I could shoot it, but, only for about 20 shots before starting to collapse. So, after a couple of weeks of struggling I took it back and despite the protests from the shop about 'cheap' bows, I got a 30lb Sage.

Have been really happy with it as a starter bow. I usually shoot every day or every other day and average 100-200 arrows per session. The 30lb is perfect for me as it does not make me tired and I can 'see' or 'feel' all of the errors I make.

I do plan on getting a second bow in the next year or two, probably one of Kegan's longbows. But I am in a quandry over draw weight.

My question comes to hunting vs practicing. I can see that for hunting larger animals I may want to use a heavier bow (whitetail and feral hogs). But, I may not be able to shoot it in extended practice sessions. I also shoot without sights and what I would call instinctive out to about 30 yds (beyond that I gap).

When instinctive, how does that affect the accuracy when using different bows? Do you 'automatically' adjust when you pick up a different bow or does it take just a few shots to 'know' your new bow?

Or, should I just settle into a 40lb bow and use it for practice as well as hunting?


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks Thin Man, I was not quite sure.


----------



## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

I shoot four different bows of different weight on a regular basis. The Weight range is not all that different, 55#-65# but the bows are, and I find that I "instinctively", or automatically adjust to whatever bow I am shooting. Again, the bows shoot very differently, going from the Omega to the English Long Bow is VERY different, but a dozen arrows later I'm back in the groove.

I have a 72# bow that I don't shoot very much, but when I do string it up and take it out back, just for "fun", again I "instinctively" adjust to it after just a few shots. So, I would think that adjusting from a target bow to a hunting weight bow is not a big deal, in my experience. I don't think you would find any problem with it, or worry about being "overbowed". You wouldn't have to, or want to shoot the same number of practice arrows from the heavier bow per shooting session. Quality practice with the heavier bow would be as beneficial as quantity practice with the target/practice bow. And besides all that, you would only have to go up to a 45# bow, to hunt with. A 45# Omega would do it.


----------



## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

Oh and Port, why do you gap after 30 yards? My brain, such as it is, will make the adjustments from 15 to 50. ?? Trust in the force Luke!

k.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> The context of my advice is that I am someone who decided five years ago to completely reshape how I shoot, applying FITA style form to traditional archery. It has been a much longer road than I had anticipated (it started as a one year plan). It is a difficult process but I have committed to seeing it through. I would not necessarily recommend my path unless you are driven and committed to the process, and a faster learning than I have been.


I think there are some very, very important point to be made in this, all of which are related.

First, that there are fundamentals of archery that are simply a matter of biomechanics. Much of what the 'Target' archers do is based on highly researched and physically real generalities that have applications in any kind of archery, whenever they _might_ be implied.

Second, the specific situation of shooting in a 'Traditional' context, by whatever definition you associate with that word, is somewhat different than the formal style embraced in the Olympic style archery world. There will inevitably be some variations required to adapt those fundamental principles to best fit the intended purpose, whatever that is.

Third, as every individual is different, mechanically, as well as mentally, there will be methods that are more suited to one individual than another.

Fourth, ultimately, the shooter must take responsibility to make the judgment on the style with which they shoot, AND, an informed decision can only be made not only with education, but honestly trying methods outside of the range of what is comfortable.

Fifth, like Arnold Krueger said, "A perfect loudspeaker is an oxymoron", the same could be said with shooting form. Choosing your form/technique/equipment, and even on a larger scale the kind of events/training you participate in, for the intended purpose, is a matter of balancing out compromises.

There are principles that are pretty difficult to deny, and then there is application, which is a far more complex question to answer.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

portablevcb said:


> The 30lb is perfect for me as it does not make me tired and I can 'see' or 'feel' all of the errors I make.
> 
> I do plan on getting a second bow in the next year or two, probably one of Kegan's longbows. But I am in a quandry over draw weight.


I think that this insight is something paramount to reaping the benefits of a lighter bow, namely that you can take the time to not only work on ingraining adjustments, but to also having the time to realize what is going on with the shot so that you can diagnose what you need to do differently. If you actually think about each shot, while you're making it, and afterwards, you will make progress much faster than if you're simply looking at where you want to hit, and assume that your body will adapt in time (which it will, though probably not in the way you're hoping.)

As for the hunting weight, if you're using an Omega, and don't have a particularly short draw weight, and are hunting deer, I'd think that 40# should be fine, and a reasonable step up, particularly if you mixed in the heavier bow to begin with for the middle of your shooting (warm up and finish with the sage, allowing you to keep the feel of something you know you can control to the same degree).

I'd defer to Kegan, though, specifically, as he's got a really good handle on what his bows will do with given variables.


----------



## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

Hmmmm....I think instinctive shooting does require one to think about the shot, while making it, and afterwards. Perhaps more than gapping, moon walking, or using any type of sight. However, WAY off topic, sorry!  And I realize that some, do not believe in the force. !

ken.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Nokhead said:


> Hmmmm....I think instinctive shooting does require one to think about the shot, while making it, and afterwards. Perhaps more than gapping, moon walking, or using any type of sight. However, WAY off topic, sorry!  And I realize that some, do not believe in the force. !
> 
> ken.


Not to derail the thread (and if it goes far as this tangent, we should probably start a new one), but I'm curious as to how you mean this. 

Instinctive Shooting, as most of the people who I've met that claim to use it as their method, seems to be relegating corrections to a subconscious level. There is certainly thought going on, if you mean the brain making adjustments, but I meant to refer to more explicit levels of awareness, in terms of things that a person could verbalize or explain to others, specifically, if need be.

I should differentiate that I don't consider this to be the same as Instinctive Aiming, which allows for a more explicit shot sequence to take place, even if the aiming portion has no explicit reference.


----------



## gun (Apr 26, 2005)

Port, 

You can set up all your bows so they are shooting approximately the same grains per pound, 30# bow=300 grains, 40# bow=400 grains and so on. This will give you similar, although not exact trajectory from your bows, close enough so your brain probably can't ell the difference.


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Nokhead,

The "Force" (metaphorically, or, if you wish, literally) is indeed applicable to archery. 

It's application may be relevant within these excerpts from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi

_"The Jedi are trained to use the Force through deistic reasoning, passive meditation and applied academics."_

Applied Academics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_academics

Deistic Reasoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Meditation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation

Fiction is both reflective and projective. Oddly, fiction can often be more realistic and understandable than experiential reality due to the ability of its detached narrative to observe, offer insight, and summarize components of reality that are often impossible to notice when one is currently submerged within the variable, perceptual opacity of reality's turbulent waters.


----------



## jakeemt (Oct 25, 2012)

Thin man- He was referring to the use of the force from the Sith perspective. Jeez! Come over to the dark side already!

:darkbeer:


----------



## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Jake, 

My arrows quite often defect to the Dark Side as they land widely astride the mark.

Oh, yes ... the Dark Side and I go way back!


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I do not subscribe to light vs. Dark, there is only power


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think there are some very, very important point to be made in this, all of which are related.
> 
> First, that there are fundamentals of archery that are simply a matter of biomechanics. Much of what the 'Target' archers do is based on highly researched and physically real generalities that have applications in any kind of archery, whenever they _might_ be implied.
> 
> ...


I agree. The key point that I tried to make is that there are fundamentals that are universal to all good shot cycles. Even snap shooting can be a controlled process if you spend the time to learn and develop good fundamentals. I chose my path and committed to it. Committing is the key. Not taking two dozen shots in your back yard and deciding it does not work. Also, not shooting for two months and deciding it does not work. It takes longer than that and that is why you really have to know what it is you want to do. It is easier with a coach you trust. On your own, you will constantly second guess your choice when you get confused or things don't go the direction you expect, as quickly as you expect. When I started my process I thought I would get better right away. Instead my shooting went in the dumper and I became so confused I had no idea what I was doing. There were reasons for this. The main one being that my first coach did not have time for me since he was too focused on his own shooting. I had to make a change. I ran into many other roadblocks along the way (maybe I will post some lessons learned). Concern about being ready for next tournament was a huge impediment to my development. When I shot with you up in Fresno I had no idea what I was doing. I had just started with Sandy McCain and had gone far enough to unlearn how I used to shoot. I had also transitioned to the 18 pound bow to help learn the new approach. The key though, is that I did not care how I shot. I went for the experience, jumped up to a heavier bow that I was not prepared to shoot, and had a good time. Being able to do that, in an age where scores are posted on the internet, was the biggest change I made to help facilitate my learning process.


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Please guys. Don't go down the Star Wars path. Haven't you heard that Star Wars leads to Lord of the Rings? And you know what happens to your brain on Lord of the Rings !!!!


----------



## portablevcb (May 10, 2014)

Nokhead said:


> Oh and Port, why do you gap after 30 yards? My brain, such as it is, will make the adjustments from 15 to 50. ?? Trust in the force Luke!
> 
> k.


Thanks for the other reply as well. And everyone else's.

I gap after 30 yds because the point is on the target so I use it. Shorter distances (10-20yd) and it is well off the target. Don't shoot any further than 40yd.

I suspected the adjustment factor would only take a short practice session with a new bow.

And, yes, I was thinking of getting a 40lb bow for my next one.

And gun, thanks. Had not thought of adjusting arrow weight to get same trajectories.

charlie


----------



## portablevcb (May 10, 2014)

PS instinctive for me is when I just concentrate on where I want the arrow to hit and let everything else follow. I find if I start thinking about my anchor, or elbow, or bow arm, or a fly buzzing around I need to let down and start over. That's where I value the form and shot process.


----------



## Nokhead (Jun 10, 2012)

I guess I referred to the "force" as a way of saying that when you shoot instinctive long enough, it is almost as if there is something else controlling one's shooting. Almost like some outside influence. But if you tend to over think it, then it does not seem to work as well. That's kind of where my analogy was coming from if that makes sense. But "regulating corrections to a sub conscious level", I would agree with that.

But I would also say that I put much thought into anchor, where my elbow is, and the mosquito landing on my nose. Thinking about release does tend to mess my shot. And I would not say that I don't aim at all, I certainly have to look down the arrow, to the mark, to shoot well. Instinctive, to me, does not mean you don't have to think about stance and form, and all that jazz. I guess it mostly means that yardage is meaningless, within one's accuracy range.

k.


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Nokhead, i definitely know what you mean. the first few times i tried assimilating gap aiming, it seriously screwed up my shot execution. Threw me all out of whack. In terms of execution.

Hank, i had a lot of admiration watching you wing it and improvise on the fly. I had some degree of figuring out my gaps the first time I went to the nfaa 3d in redding. I actually shot better, at least the first two days, than after i sort of figured things out, or for that matter, the following year when i had a pretty good idea. Change isn't the easy path, and I applaud you.


----------



## T2SHOOTER (Feb 26, 2014)

Being new, I was, still are, faced with outside sources that may or may not help. At the range and at a couple of events recently, I'm told to slow down all the time. I shoot a minimum of 80 arrows a day and sometimes over 200 during a couple of sessions. In the beginning I shot one way--everything measured. Do this, then that, feet how, head here, one or two eyes open, fingers there, end up where, breathe, and lose the arrow. Now it's, not an x man, yardage, spot, pull and four ring--oh, and a few spots. Smile. I love being outdoors, shooting the range at all distances and having fun. Sure, if I miss, while walking to target I'll breakdown the shot: low left, dropped arm, high right pushed the bow, but most of the time I'll pull and smile walking on to the next target. So when someone says, you need to record your gaps, know your marks, hold longer, have both eyes open, I just smile, walk on knowing I'm having all the fun I need. Not sore anymore, enough bows/arrows--choices, plenty of time, still new, and still having fun whatever method someone wants to call it. Smile.


----------

