# Bare shaft tuning



## Rollie83 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hi guys!! Me again!! Very new to tuning like I have mentioned before. I recently put a new string on my reflex (hoyt) Ridgeline 32. First time putting strings and cables on myself. Anyway, got the bow set to factory specs and began tuning. Started the kitchen sink method by nuts and bolts. Did the 5 ft fletched and unfletched shooting and both arrows are hitting the string. 

Next step, I went to 15 yds (progressively) and the issue began. Fletched arrow group hitting good. Unfletched hitting an inch or so to the left. I am also getting fletching contact on my riser. 










For those that bare shaft tune at 15-20 yds, how do I get my bare shafts hitting the same poi as my fletched arrows? Is it the same as the initial 5 foot shooting and fix the issue with the yokes? Then continue shooting the fletched groups long range then short range adjust rest and and sight as per nuts and bolts tuning method?

Also, could I rotate the fletching to potentially avoid the contact with no issues?

Thanks for your help!!

Oh, the bow is 70#, 29"dl. Arrows are beman bone collectors 340, cut to 27"...a little stiff for my setup.


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## Diazonamide (Jul 22, 2013)

Sounds like modified french tuning. In which case you'll need to adjust your arrow rest to the right (since you're hitting left of the string). Then go back to 3 yds and repeat the cycle until you can hit the string with no adjustments at 3 yds and center your group at 9 yds with no adjustments.


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

You will need to address the fletching contact issue first.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

P&y only said:


> You will need to address the fletching contact issue first.


That,

If you have fletch/riser contact with a vane, (not so much a problem with feathers), that is the driver for POI with the fletched shaft. The back of the arrow moves away from the contact, and anything else that happens is luck. It has little to do with where the bare shaft and fletched shaft are going.


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

How do u know your getting fletching contact? If you are have to fix that 1st as others have stated once you fix that then yes you correct the bare shaft not grouping with fltched with yokes so example bare shaft hitting left of fletched which means nock is off to the right or right tear through paper you twist right yoke and untwist left yoke. Don't forget to put tape around shaft where vanes used to be to make sure all arrows weight the same or eles bare shafts will start impacting higher the farther out you go. And if you have arrows weighing same and bare shafts are hitting higher or lower than fletched you fix that with twisting buss cable on bottom cam or control cable on top cam put twist in one you want bare shaft to move towards. Example BS hitting low twist in top control BS hitting high twist in bottom buss


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

tripleb2431 said:


> How do u know your getting fletching contact?


Usually you will see marks on the vanes, or warping on one of the vanes. You can use talcum powder on the rest and/or vane to see if it gets wiped off on the shot.

Control adjustments affect POI in the horizontal plane, bus adjustments affect POI in the vertical plane. Both adjustments are limited as they quickly affect timing, and should be made after center shot, ATA, and brace height are in place. 

I've been bare shaft tuning target and hunting bows since the pre-compound era, and never found tape to be necessary. I've also assisted with tuning clinics from time to time, and never bothered with it there either. The bare shaft needs to fly straight and level to the same POI as the arrow with vanes, until the shaft starts to spin. At that point, the shaft will go in the direction it's pointed. Depending on vane design and offset that can be anywhere from 6' to 30'. Vanes fletched straight rely on drag stabilization. That is far less effective than spin, and might require longer bare shaft distances.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Diazonamide said:


> Sounds like modified french tuning. In which case you'll need to adjust your arrow rest to the right (since you're hitting left of the string). Then go back to 3 yds and repeat the cycle until you can hit the string with no adjustments at 3 yds and center your group at 9 yds with no adjustments.


Quick question here regarding bare-shaft tuning & rest location:

What impact does roller/slide torque have on bare shaft arrow trajectory? Any hunting bow that I've ever owned (31 to 34 ata) seems to throw a bare shaft arrow to the right (4 to 6 inches) of a normal (fletched) arrow shaft out @ 30 yards through my w/b. (I'm a "leftie.")


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## Rollie83 (Jan 13, 2011)

I know I am getting the contact as the green vanes are warping on the right vane, as well the heavy green line that has been left on the riser from the vanes is very noticeable. I will just rotate the vanes to ensure the clearance issues and then tweak the right yoke 1 twist tighter and left 1 untwist. Hopefully that brings the bare shaft in tighter with the fletched group. I will keep you all posted. Thanks for your inputs guys!!


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

TMan51 said:


> Usually you will see marks on the vanes, or warping on one of the vanes. You can use talcum powder on the rest and/or vane to see if it gets wiped off on the shot.
> 
> Control adjustments affect POI in the horizontal plane, bus adjustments affect POI in the vertical plane. Both adjustments are limited as they quickly affect timing, and should be made after center shot, ATA, and brace height are in place.
> 
> I've been bare shaft tuning target and hunting bows since the pre-compound era, and never found tape to be necessary. I've also assisted with tuning clinics from time to time, and never bothered with it there either. The bare shaft needs to fly straight and level to the same POI as the arrow with vanes, until the shaft starts to spin. At that point, the shaft will go in the direction it's pointed. Depending on vane design and offset that can be anywhere from 6' to 30'. Vanes fletched straight rely on drag stabilization. That is far less effective than spin, and might require longer bare shaft distances.


Thanks for reply but I was asking him specifically how he determined he has contact. I can only speak for myself 
But I match my weights. At 20 yards it don't matter but at 30 and above since they are lighter and less drag BS start hitting higher


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

BrokenLimbs said:


> Quick question here regarding bare-shaft tuning & rest location:
> 
> What impact does roller/slide torque have on bare shaft arrow trajectory? Any hunting bow that I've ever owned (31 to 34 ata) seems to throw a bare shaft arrow to the right (4 to 6 inches) of a normal (fletched) arrow shaft out @ 30 yards through my w/b. (I'm a "leftie.")


A lot and that's exactly what yoke tuning is doing its taking that cam lean which is caused by your cables being pulled to the side by your slide/roller and tuning it out of your bow at full draw where it effects the power stroke of the string.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

tripleb2431 said:


> A lot and that's exactly what yoke tuning is doing its taking that cam lean which is caused by your cables being pulled to the side by your slide/roller and tuning it out of your bow at full draw where it effects the power stroke of the string.


OK... So if a bow has just been restrung with yokes adjusted for proper cam lean, the adjustment for bare shaft tuning (making them hit where "normal" fletched shafts hit) is presumably in both the rest & knock point?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Rollie83 said:


> I know I am getting the contact as the green vanes are warping on the right vane, as well the heavy green line that has been left on the riser from the vanes is very noticeable. I will just rotate the vanes to ensure the clearance issues and then tweak the right yoke 1 twist tighter and left 1 untwist. Hopefully that brings the bare shaft in tighter with the fletched group. I will keep you all posted. Thanks for your inputs guys!!


If your fletching is hitting your riser, you can't have your rest set to centershot. The only compounds I can remember seeing fletching contact on the riser were the older, non-center shot riser bows from the past. People get them out of the attic and put a modern rest on and hit the woods. The riser on your bow should be centershot so you are either torqueing a lot or your rest is not where it should be. It also could be excessive cam lean but that would be throwing your bareshafts with a worse angle than what you're getting.


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

BrokenLimbs said:


> OK... So if a bow has just been restrung with yokes adjusted for proper cam lean, the adjustment for bare shaft tuning (making them hit where "normal" fletched shafts hit) is presumably in both the rest & knock point?


Set rest center shot perfectly center and nock perfectly level(some bows like 1/16th high) with arrow running through center of Berger holes than DON'T touch rest or D loop again make all left to right adjustments with yokes and all vertical with buss and control cables. With the stipulation your DL is correct if not get it correct first. How do u know if you shoot at string at 5 feet and get fletched splitting string than shoot BS and its off by like 3 or more inches than you have DL issue to fix before you start yoke tunning


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

tripleb2431 said:


> At 20 yards it don't matter but at 30 and above since they are lighter and less drag BS start hitting higher


If you've taken the time to calculate the drop, with the loss of speed, on the difference in weight, then you know the difference is well below the circular error probable for most archers at 30 yds. The difference in point weight of 15gr is barely visible at 80yds, about the same weight as vanes.


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

TMan51 said:


> If you've taken the time to calculate the drop, with the loss of speed, on the difference in weight, then you know the difference is well below the circular error probable for most archers at 30 yds. The difference in point weight of 15gr is barely visible at 80yds, about the same weight as vanes.


Never really calculated just when I walk up to target and bareshafts are higher on target than my fletched than I put tape on to match weight and they start grouping together is how and why I do it my vanes run about 21 grains with 2 fletched arrows 21 grains is little hard to notice but bare shaft at 50 and fletched at 50 you'll def see it


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

tripleb2431 said:


> Set rest center shot perfectly center and nock perfectly level(some bows like 1/16th high) with arrow running through center of Berger holes than DON'T touch rest or D loop again make all left to right adjustments with yokes and all vertical with buss and control cables. With the stipulation your DL is correct if not get it correct first. How do u know if you shoot at string at 5 feet and get fletched splitting string than shoot BS and its off by like 3 or more inches than you have DL issue to fix before you start yoke tunning


Yep, did all that.... There has to be something going on with the string/cable tuning on this bow since it recently got new strings & cables... ~ At rest, everything (no cam lean) is "straight as an arrow." The bow is quiet, it's fast, and it shoots beautifully out to 40 yards. But when I put my broadheads on (the same ones I used last year that shot about an inch to the right @ 30 yards), these same broadheads are shooting a almost 6 inches to the right. (ExpanDead high profile expandables)

It's not a DL issue, nor is it a rest issue. (Regardless of what I've tried with the rest position, there's almost 6 inches between the impact point of practice tips and these heads.) It wasn't like this last year with the old strings/cables. Last year, I took my second deer of the season @ 42 yards, with a "perfect shot" using these ExpanDead heads. 

PS: Bow is a Carnage LH 70#, single cam bow. (So everything that happens with this LH bow is "bas-ackwards" to what most would experience shooting RH.) The dealer who made the strings/cables did indicate the yoke (when properly tuned) should hold everything (limbs, wheel, string in track etc.) perfectly vertical at rest. *I'm not sure this is correct??? ~ RSVP!!!*

Note: This afternoon (because of this problem) I temporarily switched out my ExpanDead hunting heads to my old heads. (Both Rage & Trophy Ridge Meat Seekers shoot almost exactly the same as practice tips.) Unlike the ExpanDead, they have a lower profile with, less blade exposed. ~ I can't press this bow, so I'm at the mercy of a dealer for help.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

tripleb2431 said:


> Never really calculated just when I walk up to target and bareshafts are higher on target than my fletched than I put tape on to match weight and they start grouping together is how and why I do it my vanes run about 21 grains with 2 fletched arrows 21 grains is little hard to notice but bare shaft at 50 and fletched at 50 you'll def see it


You may be seeing the POI difference in the difference in dynamic spine between the bare bareshaft and the taped bareshaft. Weight to the back will stiffen the dynamic spine of the shaft.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

BrokenLimbs said:


> Yep, did all that.... There has to be something going on with the string/cable tuning on this bow since it recently got new strings & cables... ~ At rest, everything (no cam lean) is "straight as an arrow." The bow is quiet, it's fast, and it shoots beautifully out to 40 yards. But when I put my broadheads on (the same ones I used last year that shot about an inch to the right @ 30 yards), these same broadheads are shooting a almost 6 inches to the right. (ExpanDead high profile expandables)
> 
> It's not a DL issue, nor is it a rest issue. (Regardless of what I've tried with the rest position, there's almost 6 inches between the impact point of practice tips and these heads.) It wasn't like this last year with the old strings/cables. Last year, I took my second deer of the season @ 42 yards, with a "perfect shot" using these ExpanDead heads.
> 
> ...


I owned a Carnage but sold it after shooting my Anarchy. I work at a shop so I had no problem pressing the bow while at work but I like to do some tuning at the range I go to using a Bowmaster. Couldn't do that with the Carnage. Your broadheads hitting right would indicate that you would have a left tear through paper or a nock left bareshaft at 20 yards. Try having your dealer put a twist into the left yoke leg and shoot it a couple times. I'm assuming your dealer has a range of some sort so shoot a bareshaft a couple times with a few fletched at 20 yards and see what happens. If you get the bareshaft to straighten out, you will most likely have better broadhead flight.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Huntinsker said:


> I owned a Carnage but sold it after shooting my Anarchy. I work at a shop so I had no problem pressing the bow while at work but I like to do some tuning at the range I go to using a Bowmaster. Couldn't do that with the Carnage. Your broadheads hitting right would indicate that you would have a left tear through paper or a nock left bareshaft at 20 yards. Try having your dealer put a twist into the left yoke leg and shoot it a couple times. I'm assuming your dealer has a range of some sort so shoot a bareshaft a couple times with a few fletched at 20 yards and see what happens. If you get the bareshaft to straighten out, you will most likely have better broadhead flight.


Thanks Huntinsker, I will do that..... I sure wish there was some simple tool to compress this bow, so I could try this myself!


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

BrokenLimbs said:


> Yep, did all that.... There has to be something going on with the string/cable tuning on this bow since it recently got new strings & cables... ~ At rest, everything (no cam lean) is "straight as an arrow." The bow is quiet, it's fast, and it shoots beautifully out to 40 yards. But when I put my broadheads on (the same ones I used last year that shot about an inch to the right @ 30 yards), these same broadheads are shooting a almost 6 inches to the right. (ExpanDead high profile expandables)
> 
> It's not a DL issue, nor is it a rest issue. (Regardless of what I've tried with the rest position, there's almost 6 inches between the impact point of practice tips and these heads.) It wasn't like this last year with the old strings/cables. Last year, I took my second deer of the season @ 42 yards, with a "perfect shot" using these ExpanDead heads.
> 
> ...


I'd venture to say that if youd shorten your DL it would pull them BH over not sure if the carnage has rotating module or if you have to switch them but you can buy them from bear or search AT and find some I my self would by 1/2" and 1" shorter just to make sure I got right one then I'd sell the 2 I don't need on AT. Have you measured your bows DL just because you have the 28" module for example that doesn't mean your shooting at 28" my bow is a full 1" longer I shoot 27.5" DL but have to have my module on 26.5 to get bow to 27.5. Even a 1/2" long makes a big difference so if I were you I'd buy 2 new modules and try them both and sell the 2 I don't need after


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

BrokenLimbs said:


> Thanks Huntinsker, I will do that..... I sure wish there was some simple tool to compress this bow, so I could try this myself!


I hear ya I actually wanted the carnage more than my motive but all I have is a portable bow press which won't press the carnage so I went with motive 6 instead


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

tripleb2431 said:


> I hear ya I actually wanted the carnage more than my motive but all I have is a portable bow press which won't press the carnage so I went with motive 6 instead


Yep, because of issues like this, I've decided (last evening) that I will only own hunting bows that can be field pressed.

I found this "contraption" made by Synunm Archery, but am afraid to pursue it for fear of damaging bow.... Allegedly, it works with "beyond parallel limb bows." At the end of the video, they show the guy is measuring it's grip with a meter. With the bow compressed, he's pulling away with 50+ lbs. force, and it doesn't "let go" of the bow. (I don't know whether it would work with my Carnage anyways?)


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

The Synum press is supposed to work with any beyond parallel limb bow. A lot of people like them but I don't have any experience with them. It's been explained that the only thing keeping them on better than the bowmaster fingers is the curve in the synum fingers. Seems that bowmaster could easily curve their fingers too and have the same capabilities if that is how the synum works.


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Huntinsker said:


> The Synum press is supposed to work with any beyond parallel limb bow. A lot of people like them but I don't have any experience with them. It's been explained that the only thing keeping them on better than the bowmaster fingers is the curve in the synum fingers. Seems that bowmaster could easily curve their fingers too and have the same capabilities if that is how the synum works.


Yeah, but with this much inwards curve??? ~ The Carnage is rather "extreme" in this regard...


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## Rollie83 (Jan 13, 2011)

K...so back to my scenario. Lol! Anyway, went out shooting today...got to 20 yds with fletched arrows hitting around the bullseye by tweaking the rest. Went to 5 yds and I split the string. Shot another group of arrows at 20 yds, centered around the bullseye. I threw a bare shaft arrow in and big problem. Arrow went about 8" left of centre!! It went in at the hard 45• angle (nock right) as before. I know that the bare shaft shot isn't part of the "kitchen sink" or modified French tuning, but is this an issue I need to really look at?


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

I'm interested. I've always believed that shooting a bare shaft can tell you quite a bit about a bow and it's tuning...


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## tripleb2431 (Aug 25, 2009)

Rollie83 said:


> K...so back to my scenario. Lol! Anyway, went out shooting today...got to 20 yds with fletched arrows hitting around the bullseye by tweaking the rest. Went to 5 yds and I split the string. Shot another group of arrows at 20 yds, centered around the bullseye. I threw a bare shaft arrow in and big problem. Arrow went about 8" left of centre!! It went in at the hard 45• angle (nock right) as before. I know that the bare shaft shot isn't part of the "kitchen sink" or modified French tuning, but is this an issue I need to really look at?


Twist right yoke untwist left yoke till they group together is the normal fix but 8" is pretty far off probably need to shorten DL some


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Rollie83 said:


> K...so back to my scenario. Lol! Anyway, went out shooting today...got to 20 yds with fletched arrows hitting around the bullseye by tweaking the rest. Went to 5 yds and I split the string. Shot another group of arrows at 20 yds, centered around the bullseye. I threw a bare shaft arrow in and big problem. Arrow went about 8" left of centre!! It went in at the hard 45• angle (nock right) as before. I know that the bare shaft shot isn't part of the "kitchen sink" or modified French tuning, but is this an issue I need to really look at?


Did you fix your contact issue? I would get that fixed first before trying anything else. Did you use a bareshaft to shoot the string? When I used that method I hit the string at both 5 and 10 yards with the bareshaft then went on to bareshaft tuning at 20 yards. It could also be your grip. Grip pressure can make HUGE differences in POI of a bareshaft. I would bet that if you add a little more pressure with your thumb, so that your stabilizer points a few degrees right of your natural position, you will see the bareshaft move closer if not to the other side with opposite nock orientation. Play with that a little and see if that's not an issue.


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## Rollie83 (Jan 13, 2011)

Yup, fixed contact issue with fletching. Shot string with both bare shaft and fletched arrows at 5 yds.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

If you've fixed your contact issues and the bareshaft is still coming in that hard left/nock right, it's likely a grip issue. I had the same problem only on a smaller scale. My bareshaft was coming in 3 inches left and a little nock right on every shot. Because I was very consistent with it I assumed that it was either my DL being short (right hand shooter) or my grip. I took a little more hand off the grip and shot again. The bareshaft hit further left and harder nock right. I discovered in my attempt to have a torque free grip, I was in fact torqueing it the other way. I had to put a little more hand on the grip to add a little pressure on the right side of the grip and like magic, bareshafts and fletched are busting each other's nocks. 

If you play with your grip, watch how much your stabilizer moves right and left and then notice where and how the bareshaft impacts. I would recommend starting to do this at shorter range. Something like 10 yards. It doesn't take much of a change to make a wide swing with a bareshaft so getting closer to the target may save you from losing a shaft.


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## Rollie83 (Jan 13, 2011)

Sounds good!! I'll try and play with my grip, sounds like that is exactly what I am doing!! I will let you know after I shoot and tinker with it. Thanks for your inputs guys!!


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