# Advantages of string stop vs no string stop??



## joehunter8301 (Jul 16, 2009)

seems all the new bows are coming standard with a string stop installed. so obviously bow manufacturers are seeing more benefits from having one. but i am still skeptic myself for a few reasons. seems the bow changes tune a little bit if you install one on an already tuned bow and vice versa. some say it gives more crisp release of the arrow off the string and others argue that it creates verticle nock travel. also in colder weather it seems that the rubber would harden up and could create a weak spot in your string from hitting such a hard spot. i just want to hear some reasons of why guys like them and dislike them also. i have never used one and my bow is a dinosaur compared to the new bows.


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## R0CKETMAN (Sep 10, 2008)

It simply makes my bows quieter. I use them for hunting, so that's huge for me.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Yep what ROCKETMAN said. A string stop will also take out most vibration. They will not rob you of any speed. Not sure on the throwing a bow out of tune. I do know for a fact that my 101st Airborne I used to own tuned better with the factory Short Stop and an after market STS used in conjunction with each other. But those days are gone it seems. If you own an older bow it would behoove you to install some sort of string stop.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

I don't like them.

The primary reason, is that with "Super", "Ultra", or crossbow style string leeches, I can add about 6-7 F.P.S. for free on almost any bow. If the bow has a string stopper, I either don't gain anything, or I lose speed, by adding leeches.

The other reason, is more of a "just in case". I have seen dry fired bows, that had their string cut in two, by the string stop. I realize that dry firing a bow is always a bad thing, and should be avoided as much as possible. But it does happen.

The amount of damage to a bow that breaks it's string on a dry fire, is tenfold what it would be, if the string hadn't broken. Especially, if the bow has draw stop pegs on the cams.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> I don't like them.
> 
> The primary reason, is that with "Super", "Ultra", or crossbow style string leeches, I can add about 6-7 F.P.S. for free on almost any bow. If the bow has a string stopper, I either don't gain anything, or I lose speed, by adding leeches.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I'm gonna have to play around with that one some time.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

I think it depends on the bow desigh, and maybe a couple other factors.

My Turbotec and Supertec don't need them as they are very quiet shooting 6gpp and up. My Vulcan and Katera's make too much noise without them, no matter what arrow weight I use.

I do think that they likely give a more consistant arrow exit, I have no intention of shooting mine in weather cold enough to affect the strings mechanical properties. That would take a lot of shooting.

I did upgrade my Hoyt's to the Fuse stop, because they have an easy replacement part for the rubber part, which will come off in time. The stopp on my Vectrix, and my oldest Katera simply popped off. I carry a spare in my truck.


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## MISSOURIBOY (Aug 20, 2010)

I think they are great. I use them on all my bows. They do make mine more quiet and less vibration.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

Here is the thread my wife and I posted awhile back.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1328411&highlight=STS

Hope it helps.


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## Rob D (Dec 26, 2009)

I use them on all my bows. I have put them on some of my older bows that didn't have them from the factory. It defiantly quiets the string.


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## CHAMPION2 (May 6, 2004)

Nice to have for hunting they do make the bow quieter, but not a necessity on a bow that is already inherently quiet in performance. I really think they shine in the late season with the bulkier hutning clothing. The string contacting your bow arm can be a concern on a shorter bh bow or on a less than perfect executed shot, etc.. and the string stopper can prevent this. Ive owned a few bows like the Mathews Switchback XT that a string stopper didnt make enough of a difference to justify the add on!!


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## youngbuck711 (Jan 31, 2007)

I like them because you get the full effects of the brace height of your bow. a 6"bh bow today will shoot as well as the 7"bh without the sts.


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## CHAMPION2 (May 6, 2004)

I havent found any significant differences in accuracy with or without a STS device regardless of brace height.


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## Rob D (Dec 26, 2009)

CHAMPION2 said:


> . I really think they shine in the late season with the bulkier hutning clothing. The string contacting your bow arm can be a concern on a shorter bh bow or on a less than perfect executed shot, etc..


 Thats a very good point


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## dtprice (Feb 26, 2010)

I know that while testing some new bows out, I had brought in my SwitchbackXT to compare them to. I commented on how they all felt so much more dead in the hand than my bow and that they were quieter. The salesman told me that if i threw on a string stop, that my bow would feel just like and sound just like the others. While I was shooting, he grabbed one off of the shelf and installed it on my bow to test it out. He was right. I couldn't believe the difference it made in the sound and feel of the bow on the shot. It felt like a new bow.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

CHAMPION2 said:


> I havent found any significant differences in accuracy with or without a STS device regardless of brace height.


Actually the real debate should be comparing a Center mounted STS vs a low mount STS.

The low mount STS is the traditional place which allows the STS to be mounted on the rear stabilizer bushing, while this reduces noise and protect the speedbow's bowstring from slapping the shooter's forearm past the brace height. It does not improve accuracy significantly.

Whereas, the center mounted (center is a relative term, usually any cable rod mounted STS can be called center-mounted), would guarantee the separation of bow string and arrow at a known location. this will produce very consistent velocity.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I could care less. The dang thing caused as much trouble as it is allegedly stopped. Extra machining to the riser and parts and what cost added to the bow? Seems when something comes out it's just one more thing to mess with. Seems that rubber wears out a lot, poor quality or mis-adjusted?. I've seen a lot of frayed strings because of the stopper and then people serve the string at point of contact. One string maker had the center serving all the way down for the string stop. Bet that added some weight to string. And then one isn't enough. Doesn't Bear have two? How many times have you seen the want of a lighter bow? And then they add the string stop or 2? And the incredible vast number of bows that were said to be so super quiet before the advent of the string stop? Where the H__ did they go? And the NFAA went bonkers ruling on the string stop, trying figure out whether it was a counter balance and how many were to be allowed.
Beings there are so many bows out there and winning and taking deer that don't have string stops, where is it proved the string stop is really worth having?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

PoppieWellie said:


> ....the center mounted (center is a relative term, usually any cable rod mounted STS can be called center-mounted), would guarantee the separation of bow string and arrow at a known location. this will produce very consistent velocity.


It isn't more consistant than not having an "STS" at all!

I feel the same way Sonny does about them. Just not quite as strongly. :tongue::tongue:

(Why don't we have smileys anymore?)

(Nevermind, my options changed with the last update. I fixed it!:embara


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

dtprice said:


> I know that while testing some new bows out, I had brought in my SwitchbackXT to compare them to. I commented on how they all felt so much more dead in the hand than my bow and that they were quieter. The salesman told me that if i threw on a string stop, that my bow would feel just like and sound just like the others. While I was shooting, he grabbed one off of the shelf and installed it on my bow to test it out. He was right. I couldn't believe the difference it made in the sound and feel of the bow on the shot. It felt like a new bow.


I have experienced the same thing.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

CHAMPION2 said:


> Nice to have for hunting they do make the bow quieter, but not a necessity on a bow that is already inherently quiet in performance. I really think they shine in the late season with the bulkier hutning clothing. The string contacting your bow arm can be a concern on a shorter bh bow or on a less than perfect executed shot, etc.. and the string stopper can prevent this.
> 
> I agree with this too. I like them.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> It isn't more consistant than not having an "STS" at all!
> 
> I feel the same way Sonny does about them. Just not quite as strongly. :tongue::tongue:
> 
> ...


Well, I didn't make the comments based on ''feelings' but from scientific findings using chronographs and high speed cameras, as well as actual testing.

Especially on Center-mounted STS bows, many people have posted or PM me (or my wife) that the group improves. 

I couldn't care less about the low-mounted STS (ie STS mounted on the rear stabilizer bushning), other than for noise reduction.

Just wish that people can actually make their comments based on facts, not 'feeling's.

Poppie


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

Quieter? Yup...sometimes.

More accurate? Nope

Just look at the line of professional freestyle shooters at any major tourny. If a string stopper added accuracy you can bet they would have one.


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## gridman (Aug 26, 2007)

definitely took out any twang, and quieted my HUNTING bow significantly, so, they work quite well, as for a loss of 6-7 fps, extremely insignificant. put one on you will be glad you did


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

PoppieWellie said:


> Well, I didn't make the comments based on ''feelings' but from scientific findings using chronographs and high speed cameras, as well as actual testing.
> 
> Especially on Center-mounted STS bows, many people have posted or PM me (or my wife) that the group improves.
> 
> ...


Okay then, from my scientific "studies", I have determined that using a STS does not improve accuracy or arrow speed. When compared to not using one, and this was done with a chronograph.


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## WNYBowhunter (Jan 15, 2006)

string stops are one of the best things ever invented.
I think first one I saw was on a Jennings bow back in the '90s, now just about all of them have them. Great accessory.


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## joehunter8301 (Jul 16, 2009)

PoppieWellie said:


> Here is the thread my wife and I posted awhile back.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1328411&highlight=STS
> 
> Hope it helps.


anyone else??? i like this


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## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2007)

All my bows have one, mounted on the back stablizer hole, turned up to where my arm is when i am wearing a big coat, would not have it any other way. As far as noise, it helped that to, even on my guardian.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

PoppieWellie said:


> Actually the real debate should be comparing a Center mounted STS vs a low mount STS.
> 
> The low mount STS is the traditional place which allows the STS to be mounted on the rear stabilizer bushing, while this reduces noise and protect the speedbow's bowstring from slapping the shooter's forearm past the brace height. It does not improve accuracy significantly.
> 
> Whereas, the center mounted (center is a relative term, usually any cable rod mounted STS can be called center-mounted), would guarantee the separation of bow string and arrow at a known location. this will produce very consistent velocity.


Poppi , I have posted on this in the past. I had a 101st Airborne that had the factory Short Stop on it. I got to thinking about the string whip and ordered an aftermarket STS and installed it. When used in conjunction with the center mounted STS (short stop) I was certain my bow tuned better but had nothing to prove my theory. Good post!


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

String stoppers work well to keep your sting off your clothes in cold weather hunting (so does an arm guard), other than that I don't care for them, at least on the bows I have. I don't think they make my bows any quieter, on my UltraElites a string stop shortens the duration of the sound, but adds a bit of a "slap". I prefer the soft thump I get with a couple of string leeches or cat whisker and without a stopper.


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## little buddy (Dec 20, 2004)

Easykeeper said:


> String stoppers work well to keep your sting off your clothes in cold weather hunting (so does an arm guard), other than that I don't care for them, at least on the bows I have. I don't think they make my bows any quieter, on my UltraElites a string stop shortens the duration of the sound, but adds a bit of a "slap". I prefer the soft thump I get with a couple of string leeches or cat whisker and without a stopper.


Ditto! My Ultra Elite was so quiet with just cat whiskers it was like a recure. When I played with a Hoyt factory stop [to hard ] i could hear a slap that was not there before. The mathews stops seem to work real well. My buddy has one on a Drenlin ld and it is super quiet. There is just something about them I don't like.


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## lthrnck03 (Feb 4, 2010)

For me personally....I know that my STS does a great job of quieting my bow. I have taken shots with it on, promptly removed it, and shot again. There is a very noticable difference with it on.


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## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

They are nearly worthless unless you shoot a low brace height bow with bulky clothing. Then I'd have to ask why one does a stupid thing like that anyway. :tongue:

As for releasing the arrow consistently........WRONG ANSWER. That is a function of consistent nock fit and that alone. It doesn't matter if you have a stopper or not, crappy nocks release the arrow.....crappy. :lol:

They are not "quieter", but all add an extra sound that wasn't there before. Prove me wrong, guys.

And the first one came out in 1977. :nod: But it wasn't even for quieting the bow or making the release more consistent. It was to push the string towards the shooter a little to make it easiers to start rolling the cams after being in a cold stand for hours. :mg:

I've found them to be nothing but extra weight that just doesn't give me any benefits that are real. Sorry, but that's just how it is.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

I want to talk about what a "string stop" really does, and possibly clear up some confusion.

That's what I want, but it is more likely, that I will just anger a bunch of people, that have already made up their minds, and don't want to be confused with a bunch of facts.

A lot of people believe that a STS stops the string "dead in it's tracks". That is not true!

The string hits the STS at least half a dozen times, before it finally "stops" it. If you don't believe me, clean off your STS, and put a fresh application of wax on your string, before taking ONE shot. You will see multiple lines, from the repeated impacts the string made on the stopper. Every time the string contacts the rubber, it converts some of the energy into another form, until it is finally "gone".

There is no such thing as a damping device that "quiets" a bow. The actual peak of the noise, is determined by the energy release during the shot.

A damping device merely reduces the duration of string oscillation, following the shot. This creates the ILLUSION of reducing noise.

It has to do with the way that we hear. A short duration noise sounds "quieter" than a long duration noise of equal amplitude. This is the reason that a bat's radar is almost imperceptible to a Human ear, despite being of almost equal decibels to an average jack hammer.

The "noise testing" done by certain magazines, is done with a meter that samples at a certain number of times per second. It takes multiple samples per second, and averages them, to give a decibel reading, significantly lower than the actual peak.

If they used a real time velocimeter, or accelerometer, they would all show the same peak vibration, regardless of the damping device installed on the bow.

Shortening the duration of the string oscillation, does have value. It lengthens component life, by decreasing the actual cycles of wear inducing movement, that occur per shot sequence.

However, the same thing is accomplished, by the use of Limb Savers and String Leeches.


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## corpralbarn (Jan 21, 2009)

Quieter with more speed!


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## Ohiorut (Nov 2, 2006)

I've shot with and without in the last year and it is a great benefit for sure. Quiets your bow is on the top of the list! Stopped the occasional string slap on my wrist.


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## The G (Nov 12, 2009)

reo's take on it....scroll down in my link. http://www.reowilde.com/www.reowilde.com/Questions/Questions.html


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

corpralbarn said:


> Quieter with more speed!


There is no physical way that a string stop could add speed, because one thing it definitely does is limit forward string travel / momentum. Right?

Regardless of the other merits, I can only imagine that it could possibly only have the reverse / negative effect on speed.


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## SEIowaArcher (Aug 14, 2007)

In my experience it just depends on the bow. My Switchback XT and Tribute didn't need them, but they make a world of difference on my Reezen and DXT for both vibration and sound.


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## joehunter8301 (Jul 16, 2009)

anyone else


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> I want to talk about what a "string stop" really does, and possibly clear up some confusion.
> 
> That's what I want, but it is more likely, that I will just anger a bunch of people, that have already made up their minds, and don't want to be confused with a bunch of facts.
> 
> ...


I have been working with velocimeter (BTW the term is originated from one company, so I have some prospective where your argument come from) and accelerometer for the past 25 years, along with DSP algorithm going with them. 

I have to say that it is NO ILLUSION because when the STS forced the string to alter its frequency and amplitude of the wave, the energy changes and therefore the noise pattern changes as well, for the better, not for the worse. So there is no denying that it is an improvement for the noise reduction application. The retrovertion of the string is the snapping point where the noise is the loudest and the velocity of the bowstring near to be the greatest as well as, BTW the peak point of the velocity really depends on the design of the bow. In my previous thread, designer like Richard Batdorf even mentioned how the STS should be mounted to minimize the noise.

I also need to pointout that your posts never stated once, or reply to my post, fact to fact, about the center mounted STS, which ensures much more precise separation of bowstring and the arrow after the release. So there is more than just noise reduction.

There are many benefits of STS, it is not just 'IF', it really works.

All you have to do is follow this thread and see for yourself after you follow through in your own tests and see if you agree with it...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1328411&highlight=STS


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## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

PoppieWellie said:


> Not to mention that you post never stated once, or reply to my post, fact to fact, about the center mounted STS, which ensures much more precise separation of bowstring and the arrow after the release.


I can assure you this, and it won't take a bunch of equipment to realize either, is that consistent departure from the string is a function of consistent and proper nock fit, with or without a string suppressor. Disagree?


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## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

I use a string stop on my hunting bows because they take away a little noise and vibration. I have used them on my target bows but don't anymore. The noise and vibration isnt a factor in target shooting and I have noticed that my groups are tighter without the string stop. I know some people have different results but thats just what I have found over the past 2 years.


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

I like the draw stop because it silences my bow down and mainly because it eliminates forearm slap for me!!


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

Buster of Xs said:


> I can assure you this, and it won't take a bunch of equipment to realize either, is that consistent departure from the string is a function of consistent and proper nock fit, with or without a string suppressor. Disagree?


No, I don't agree, because all you need to do is to mount a highspeed camera and see for yourself, with same arrow (mean same nock tension) shot a few times.


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

Target shooting wouldn't use one. Seems like one more thing to worry about.


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## 1231 (Oct 25, 2010)

I use one for hunting bc it quiets my bow.


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## parkerbows (Oct 27, 2004)

it quiets the bow and the bow shoots great with it. No other reason than that from me


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## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

PoppieWellie said:


> No, I don't agree, because all you need to do is to mount a highspeed camera and see for yourself, with same arrow (mean same nock tension) shot a few times.


You missed the point......consistency between arrows and nocks. That's all that matters.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

It's really simple. The arrow separates from the string, at the instant that the arrow reaches a higher speed than the string!


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## joehunter8301 (Jul 16, 2009)

ttt


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Here is a high speed video, of two bows without string stops, being fired. The video was used to promote Limbsaver products.

Pay particular attention, to the point that the arrow leaves the string, and the timing of the string leech's reaction to counter the string oscillation. A string stopper, slows (not stops) the string before it reaches it's peak velocity.

A string stopper can only dampen string oscillation, on the forward "swing", while Limbsavers dampen on both the forward, and the rearward iteration of each cycle.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Since speed nocks, and String Leeches increase arrow speed by "whipping" the string forward faster and farther at the nock point, an STS completely *KILLS* their purpose.

It makes the weight on the string completely parasitic, and effectively adds the speed loss of a shorter power stroke, without the benefits that come from real brace height.


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## novich69 (Dec 1, 2006)

If your string is hitting your arm,its due to improper grip.It has nothing to do with a bow having a STS or not.


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## bb11 (Dec 16, 2009)

PoppieWellie said:


> Here is the thread my wife and I posted awhile back.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1328411&highlight=STS
> 
> Hope it helps.


Poppie/Wellie, I read the string you posted and posted on it there, but dont know if it is closed or not. In any event, it is a fascinating, fantastic string and research!!!! Thanks for your time and effort and sharing same! Can you PM me or post here or there as to which cable STS (Saunders or Darton) you would go with for quality/reliability? (I dont want to backwoods hunt and have one break or move.)


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## bb11 (Dec 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Since speed nocks, and String Leeches increase arrow speed by "whipping" the string forward faster and farther at the nock point, an STS completely *KILLS* their purpose.
> 
> It makes the weight on the string completely parasitic, and effectively adds the speed loss of a shorter power stroke, without the benefits that come from real brace height.


Copterdoc, are you saying:
1. that if one uses a STS, they should remove any string leach as it serves no purpose and only slows the string due to its weight?
2. That string leeches are beneficial over a STS?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

bb11 said:


> Copterdoc, are you saying:
> 1. that if one uses a STS, they should remove any string leach as it serves no purpose and only slows the string due to its weight?


Yes.


bb11 said:


> 2. That string leeches are beneficial over a STS?


Sort of.

They accomplish the same thing, while still allowing the benefit of a set of speed nocks.


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

I use one on my slayer with nitrous cams. I have shot it without a sts and no leeches and with leeches. I lost 4fps with leeches and no sts and the bow was noticably noisier. With nothing on the string and no sts the bow is actually pretty noisy. I chronoed the bow w/o a sts and then with a sts and the variance was about 3fps. On my slayer it depends on the the gap between the sts and string. If I set it up to wear the the sts is just kissing the string or about 1/16 off the string I lose 1-3fps vs having no sts. If I set it to where its about 3/16" off the string I pick up 3 fps and the bow is quieter.


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## joehunter8301 (Jul 16, 2009)

this is good info but i still leaves me scratchin my head because they both have their advantages......


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> I use one on my slayer with nitrous cams.


 I am absolutely certain that I can get you more arrow speed with Super Leeches, and no STS, with that particular bow.

Just like you had to move your STS, to find the "sweet spot", I have to move the Leeches, to find their sweet spot.

The difference is, that when I'm done, the bow is faster than it is without any damping device installed at all.


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## rjr240 (Aug 13, 2010)

Always, always had a light forearm nick before STS (it's MY style and not changing) . Also makes a bow more pleasing to shoot by reducing twang. I doubt if it has any effect on accuracy at short yardage but would consider the minor posibility at longer.. A good question for the hooter shooter guys.


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## SPIKER_67 (Nov 7, 2007)

Best thing to come along in a loooong time. I wouldn't shoot a modern bow without one.


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

Copterdoc,

I see what your saying about moving the silencers. However, the end servings on a slayer with nitrous are pretty long and I can only slide the leeches out towards the cams so far. I moved them out as far as I could and even moved them closer to center but the bow just got slower the farther I moved them from the cams. I did manage to pick up 3fps using bowjax on the string cuz I can slide them over the serving and closer to the cams.


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

BTW Doc, I'm getting 298fps set at 27 1/2" @65lbs with a 330gr arrow and 285fps with a 375gr arrow.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> Copterdoc,
> 
> I see what your saying about moving the silencers. However, the end servings on a slayer with nitrous are pretty long and I can only slide the leeches out towards the cams so far. I moved them out as far as I could and even moved them closer to center but the bow just got slower the farther I moved them from the cams. I did manage to pick up 3fps using bowjax on the string cuz I can slide them over the serving and closer to the cams.


Cut your servings, and re-tie.

It takes 5 min. If you don't know how to do it, your bow shop can do it while you watch.

The end servings just need to be about 1/4" from where the string last contacts the damping lobe.

Don't waste your time with those stupid "S" shaped string leeches. They are too lightweight,and tear in half after a couple hundred shots. 

Buy the crossbow style "Super" leech. They are shaped like a cross, and will literally outlast your string.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> BTW Doc, I'm getting 298fps set at 27 1/2" @65lbs with a 330gr arrow and 285fps with a 375gr arrow.


What is your brace height?

They made the Slayer with 14" and 13" limbs.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

My findings are my own

My Zeus has no string stop and shoots very accurately
My retribution has dual string stops (below grip and cable guard mount) and shoots very accurately

My Zeus is quite quiet but has alittle string buzz (has nothing on string) (roughly 600 grain arrow)
My retribution is unbelievably quiet (500 grain arrow)


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> What is your brace height?
> 
> They made the Slayer with 14" and 13" limbs.


Mine has the 14" limbs and the BH is 6.5".


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> Mine has the 14" limbs and the BH is 6.5".


"C" cams?


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> "C" cams?


"B" cams.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> "B" cams.


 You are losing about 10 F.P.S. somewhere.


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## Madlaz (Jul 4, 2008)

Well I tried 2 string stops on my scepter 4 shoot thru one at the rear stab hole and one in the cable guard hole dont really care for the speed part since i dont have a chrono.But i can tell you one thing the bow is quieter and less vibration and for me it tightened up my groups now its gotten expensive to shoot because i keep busting nocks so now its one arrow per target might be my imagination but iam shooting better i shoot fingers and bare bow most of the time but also use sight occasionaly .


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> You are losing about 10 F.P.S. somewhere.


Yeh, I seem to be slower than what alot of guys are posting. I have tried alot of twisting and untwisting but I can't seem to get it any faster. What Gives?


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Reasons to use a string suppressor? 

1. Quieter bow
2. Faster & Quieter by eliminating string silencers
3. Less felt vibration in the bow
4. Reduces the chance for the string contacting an arm, jacket, etc and affecting the shot

For hunting I wouldn't have a bow without one and haven't since 06 when I started making the MeanV 

Dan


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> Yeh, I seem to be slower than what alot of guys are posting. I have tried alot of twisting and untwisting but I can't seem to get it any faster. What Gives?


I'm not sure,

Your BH is about right. You have the right size cams for your DL.....

What module setting are you using, and have you *measured* the draw length, draw weight, and arrow weight?


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

Doc, A2A is 37 7/8" and I have not measured poundage but have it maxed out. So, I'm assuming 65lbs since all the bows specs are close. I'm positive on arrow weight and draw length. I have the module set on the second to last longest setting.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> Doc, A2A is 37 7/8" and I have not measured poundage but have it maxed out. So, I'm assuming 65lbs since all the bows specs are close. I'm positive on arrow weight and draw length. I have the module set on the second to last longest setting.


You really do need to check the draw weight.

However, everything else is right, so the only thing I can think of, is that your end servings are way too long.

If you only have a peep, loop and two Super Leeches (in the right place), that bow should give you an adjusted IBO (for your DL) of 335 to 340.

Yes, even with all that "stuff" on the string!


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## WNYBowhunter (Jan 15, 2006)

I don't see a single advantage to NOT having a string stop. 
Many advantages to having a string stop, as already have been outlined here.


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## Rjm08 (May 22, 2002)

After reading this I went to my basement range (16 yds) and tested my Maxxis 35 with the Sts (stock Hoyt) on and off. I found that with the Sts off my point of impact changed a little lower and left of where my arrows were hitting with it on. My thinking is that anything extra that changes my point of impact isn't necessary for target shooting.

However, the noise and vibration, including some wrist slap was evident with it off. Which is a real plus for hunting. 

I guess the real test will be on Monday when I shoot it at the shop and see how it shoots at 20 yards and having the pressure of keeping score on a Vegas round.


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> You really do need to check the draw weight.
> 
> However, everything else is right, so the only thing I can think of, is that your end servings are way too long.
> 
> ...


Doc, I know the 14" limb models only IBO at 325fps. So, if I take off 25fps for my lack of draw and subtract another 10 for peep and loop that should put me at 300fps. I do have bowjax on the string but I have them moved really close to the cams. About 1 1/2 away from cams. 

Even if the bow is only making 62-63lbs how much would 2 or 3 more lbs give me in speed?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> Doc, I know the 14" limb models only IBO at 325fps. So, if I take off 25fps for my lack of draw and subtract another 10 for peep and loop that should put me at 300fps. I do have bowjax on the string but I have them moved really close to the cams. About 1 1/2 away from cams.


The Slayer's IBO, is for C cams. (And it was under rated)

B cams, can't reach 30", with a 6.5" brace height, unless the ATA is over 43", and then, they are pushing too much string along with the arrow.

Basically, the B cams are faster than C cams. Their "adjusted" IBO, is at least 335 to 340, with a 6.5" brace height.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KsKid said:


> Even if the bow is only making 62-63lbs how much would 2 or 3 more lbs give me in speed?


About 5 F.P.S.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Here is a high speed video, of two bows without string stops, being fired. The video was used to promote Limbsaver products.
> 
> Pay particular attention, to the point that the arrow leaves the string, and the timing of the string leech's reaction to counter the string oscillation. A string stopper, slows (not stops) the string before it reaches it's peak velocity.
> 
> A string stopper can only dampen string oscillation, on the forward "swing", while Limbsavers dampen on both the forward, and the rearward iteration of each cycle.


This is a video promoting limbsaver, has nothing to do with the STS. And I am talking about cable rod mounted STS and your reply is comparing apple to orange!

Have you even shot a center mounted STS, and not mention to record a high speed footage to see if a center mounted STS will help the arrow and bowstring separation ?


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

Buster of Xs said:


> You missed the point......consistency between arrows and nocks. That's all that matters.


Do you really mean consistency between nock and bowstring ? 

If so, try a center mounted STS and then post your reply.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I have been trying to get a bow to bareshaft tune for about 3 months. The bare shaft would hit about 2 feet above the fletched arrow when shooting at 20 yards. I decide to take the string stop off and see what would happen. The first shot the bare shaft was about 1.5 feet above the fletched arrow. I then lowered my rest and the bare shaft will not hit dead level with the fletched arrow. So a string stop may affect how your bow tunes. My string stop was about 6" below the arrow nock point.

I will now be taking the string stops off all of my bows just to see if I can get them to tune better.


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## Koorsboom (Dec 13, 2008)

The PSE Mojo kicks like a muel which makes it quite unpleasant to shoot. By adding a lot of weight to the bow the felt kick is reduced significantly, but the bow is then very heavy. I added a string stop and that took care of most of the felt recoil and I could take all of the heavy weights off the bow.

That is why I have one on my target bow ...


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## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

PoppieWellie said:


> Do you really mean consistency between nock and bowstring ?
> 
> If so, try a center mounted STS and then post your reply.


NO, but proper nock fit and consistent nocks on your set of arrows. No matter what, string stop or not, these things are going to have a greater impact on consistent release from the string. Trust me, take your video equipment and see what happens with inconsistent nocks or improper fit. You will not get consistent release no matter what.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

PoppieWellie said:


> This is a video promoting limbsaver, has nothing to do with the STS. And I am talking about cable rod mounted STS and your reply is comparing apple to orange!
> 
> Have you even shot a center mounted STS, and not mention to record a high speed footage to see if a center mounted STS will help the arrow and bowstring separation ?


Yes, I have shot a bow with a center mounted STS.

I have no affiliation with Limbsaver. I showed the video, to prove that the arrow is STILL accelerating, well past the point that the STS contacts the string.

Therefore, an STS DOES result in speed loss, and destroys any benefit that you may be trying get from speed nocks.

ESPECIALLY, if the STS is located close to the nock point!


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

bb11 said:


> Poppie/Wellie, I read the string you posted and posted on it there, but dont know if it is closed or not. In any event, it is a fascinating, fantastic string and research!!!! Thanks for your time and effort and sharing same! Can you PM me or post here or there as to which cable STS (Saunders or Darton) you would go with for quality/reliability? (I dont want to backwoods hunt and have one break or move.)


Thank you for your kind words. 

We actually prefer Saunders over Darton. The Saunders liquid gel allows the energy impacted the STS to be passed around the entire buffer, not just the impacted surface. 

Depends on the particular bow you use, there are a few choices on the center-mounted STS.

Martin, for example, even have the integrated TRG/SOS system which guides the buss cable and also provides a center-mounted STS.

The High Country Speed Pro, also sports a center-mounted (again cable guide based) STS. It is an extremely accurate system.

Darton had all their bow outfitted with cable-rod mounted STS.

Saunders makes the liquid gel packed aftermarket STS for just about every bow out there, including Mathews, and PSE.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

Buster of Xs said:


> ... You will not get consistent release no matter what.


So, in effect, you are saying that having a string stop near the nocking point will make the nock->string fit irrelevant.

What a weird way to answer the question!


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## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

How did you get THAT? :confused3: String suppressors are irrelevant if nock fit is not proper and consistent. Archery isn't about one shot, man. It's about thousands being the same, time after time. Suppressors aren't going to give you that, but nock fit does.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Yes, I have shot a bow with a center mounted STS.
> 
> I have no affiliation with Limbsaver. I showed the video, to prove that the arrow is STILL accelerating, well past the point that the STS contacts the string.
> 
> ...


I requested that perhaps you should try the center-STS and shoot a high speed footage of a bow with center-mounted STS to determine for yourself if it helps accuracy.

Instead your answer comes back, says yes you have tried the Center-Mounted STS. And you have a video, except the video is not yours, and it is not a video with center mounted STS.

I almost thought your post is not worthy of a reply. Because it seems you are always ready for an answer to make things sounded right, but the answer has nothing to do with my original request.

Instead of answer the request on the accuracy, you mentioned that the speed loss as an issue. 

So allow me to address that issue first...

As the bowstring passes the Brace Height point, the compound bow is under going the final stage of retrovertion, ie the cams are settling down and the bowstring is in the process of being snapped back towards the Brace Height, but because of the inertia, both the bowstring as well as the cams would continue to go forward on its motion path which can cause the bowstring to go froward as much as 3-4 inches on a speedbow. 

The above is exactly what my wife and I described in our tests.

Keep in mind that at this stage (ie nock passing the Brace Height), the limbs are oscillating, cables are snapping and shaking, and the cams can go from full speed forward to sudden stop or worse, reversed back. In other words, the system is trying to put a stop to all the movement, except that of the bow string. Unless you put an STS to stop it.

So there *can be *speed loss with a center-mounted STS, but there can also be speed gain, depending on the poundage and the design of the bow.

All the info is already published in this thread with other people's comments.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...&highlight=STS



*Here is the catch:* 

The movement of the bowstring passing the brace height point is mechanically random, because of the cams and cable are settling, the string can go wild depending on the timing of the cams, the corrections of the cams (ie cams can move in reverse directions), as well as the settlement movement of the cables. Any speed gain is more than upset by the loss in accuracy. If there is no STS, the arrow nock can have 'error's introduced due to the lateral as well as vertical movement of the bowstring because of all these backlashing as well as settling motions.

In theory, even your favorite leeches can cause problem with bowstring movement past the Brace Height point, if they are not placed properly.

That is why the closer the STS is to the nocking set and closer to the Braceheight will result in more accuracy.

The above is the fact you never acknowledged, but 8 out 10 AT users did on this thread, and all of them have used it and can vouch for its effect. The rest have either an unsubstantiated opinions or providing argument on other aspects but not answering back straight.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

I,personaly,would have to agree with this theory.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

PoppieWellie said:


> ....it seems you are always ready for an answer to make things sounded right, but the answer has nothing to do with my original request.


This thread is titled; "Advantages of string stop vs no string stop??". 

I'm not here to answer your requests, I am here to argue why an STS might not be a good idea!

It seems to *me*, that you are the one trying sell something! If you have a high speed video, by all means *post it up!*

That high speed video that I posted shows that the arrow is still being pushed, propelled, accelerated, driven, powered, or whatever word you choose to use, *BEYOND* the point that an STS would be trying to "stop" the string.

If the string was slowing down as it passed the brace position, then it would no longer be attached to the arrow!

It is *NOT* a "mechanically random" (whatever that means), separation! The string decelerates, the arrow does not, so the arrow leaves the string. 

Having the string strike anything, anywhere, while the arrow is still attached, certainly does not help with accuracy!

It absolutely does reduce the bow's potential for speed.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

It doesn't make sense to me, to install a string stopper, because the the string is contacting the bow arm.

If the string is moving far enough past brace, to hit my arm even with proper shooting form, then "stopping" it sooner, has the same effect on arrow speed, as adding brace height.

However, since the bow still has the same brace height with a STS, it isn't any more resistant to torque, or any more forgiving.

To me, it makes more sense, to just shoot a bow with a higher brace height, without a string stopper!

I still get the same arrow speed, but I get the forgiveness benefit of increased brace height.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Any arrow acceleration that you can get beyond the point of brace, is free speed. You didn't invest any additional energy into the draw, in order to get it.

It makes the bow a more efficient machine.

Adding brace, reducing draw weight, or draw length, all do the same thing. They reduce the amount of energy invested by the shooter. That means, that the bow transfers less energy into the arrow.

It's efficiency remains the same, but the arrow speed drops.

Allowing the string to accelerate beyond the brace position, improves the bow's efficiency. 

You can "tune" the string, to increase the maximum velocity at the nock point, beyond the brace position. This is done by placing weights in the right place on the string.

By installing a string stopper, you have effectively reduced the bow's efficiency, and lowered it's potential IBO rating.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> It doesn't make sense to me, to install a string stopper, because the the string is contacting the bow arm.
> 
> If the string is moving far enough past brace, to hit my arm even with proper shooting form, then "stopping" it sooner, has the same effect on arrow speed, as adding brace height.
> 
> ...


I am not going to post any more replies, because you are just playing with words and not trying to have an open-minded discussion.

Yes, we have many high speed videos shot at 10,000 frames per sec, not just one, but we decided not to show the riser or the logo, so as not to appear to bash certain manufacturers. Not to mention the proxy version is not easy to make from the original raw file format.

By the way, Ryan, we designed a lot of helicopter onboard and maintenance system and have been working with major helicopter instrument companies as well as government agencies, perhaps one day when we stop by North West Illinois for business we can finish the chat on this.


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

My way of thinking on this subject is this;I've seen some slow motion videos that show the arrow leaving the string before it ever gets to brace,probably because the major propulsion comes before brace and that the nocks were loose enough to let the arrow maintain and/or finish acceleration;therefore to ME,I want very loose nocks{just tight enough to stay on during draw and no more}and a string stop close to nocking point and at or just under brace for an instantaneous seperation of nock from string{I don't want the nock pinching and "pulling" the string with it till seperation due to arrow trying to go fast and string trying to slow down,working against each other for a millisecond}and in effect ever-so-slightly kicking nock either up or down depending on location of string stop and more importantly how far it is from point of seperation or nock point.My 2cents and probably worth less doe to Obama-nomics.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

My argument, has nothing to do with who makes the products.

I am simply making an argument about why I do not like string stopping devices as a means of dampening vibration.

I think I make some good points, and give some good reasons for not using a string stopper. That is all they are. Points.

If they are wrong, then somebody can certainly refute them. I am obviously outnumbered. Being outnumbered, does not mean that I am wrong. And I am not playing with words.


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## wiesmanr (Nov 3, 2005)

Even if there is slight speed loss with a string stop, I would rather have the many more benefits with the stop. I mean really, we are only talking a matter of a few fps. I don't think that there is any way of making each nock the exact same to have the exact same fitment and release every time. Just too many variables that can change at any given moment after the release. A string stop would, at least, create nock to string separation to be much closer to the same each time, imo.


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## [email protected] (Dec 11, 2007)

All anyone has to do is either take your string stop off or turn it if your's is a dog leg style and shoot it, and with all my bows it only takes one shot without them before they go back on., and yes they do keep the string away from your arm if your wearing a big coat, which is mandatory around these parts. Also i think they help to give the arrow a clean break from the string, dont care if they add speed or take away speed from the arrow. Mounted in the center might be better as far as killing vibes but i like mine close to my arm, dont even have to wear a sleeve compresser if i choose not to, but usally do anyway because of the ackward positions you have up in a tree.Nobody wiil talk me out of my string stops.:wink:


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

There seems to be quite a discussion on this so today I played some more with mine. I have a Martin Slayer with shoot thru system and I have a sts(home made) in the rear stab hole. I took the cable guard that came on the bow and made a sts that mounts in the cable guard hole and contacts the string about 2" above the nocking point. 

I removed both STS and shot the bow through chrono and reported a speed of 298fps. I then added the top sts and shot the bow to a recorded 299fps. I added the bottom sts, now shooting two, and recorded a 298. I removed the top sts and shot a 298fps. So, the quickest speed was with the top sts installed only. Plus, the bow is DEFINITELY quieter with the string stop installed. 

Not real scientific but this is how a STS reacts to my bow. Possibly the sts stops the string and at such an abrupt halt that it kinda "slingshots" the arrow forward netting in increased speed. We can break it down with theory or mechanically bu this what I found in the "MY" real world. I will use one for the simple fact that my bow is alot quieter with one and I lost NO speed but actually gained.


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## PoppieWellie (Sep 16, 2009)

KsKid said:


> There seems to be quite a discussion on this so today I played some more with mine. I have a Martin Slayer with shoot thru system and I have a sts(home made) in the rear stab hole. I took the cable guard that came on the bow and made a sts that mounts in the cable guard hole and contacts the string about 2" above the nocking point.
> 
> I removed both STS and shot the bow through chrono and reported a speed of 298fps. I then added the top sts and shot the bow to a recorded 299fps. I added the bottom sts, now shooting two, and recorded a 298. I removed the top sts and shot a 298fps. So, the quickest speed was with the top sts installed only. Plus, the bow is DEFINITELY quieter with the string stop installed.
> 
> Not real scientific but this is how a STS reacts to my bow. Possibly the sts stops the string and at such an abrupt halt that it kinda "slingshots" the arrow forward netting in increased speed. We can break it down with theory or mechanically bu this what I found in the "MY" real world. I will use one for the simple fact that my bow is alot quieter with one and I lost NO speed but actually gained.


The speed increase with the cable-rod mounted actually happens to some bows. Some cam and limbs design starts the retrovertion action early, so passing the point of Brace Height actually has the bowstring deccelerating (ie dragging the arrow).

But this phenomenom does not necessarily apply to all the bows.

But thank you for your testings and straight answers. We sure need more AT members like you.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

What about accuracy did you shoot any groups when you ran your experiment


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## Madlaz (Jul 4, 2008)

I agree with KsKIDI did the same as i stated before earlier with my Scepter4 shoot thru but with this bow 2 sts work better made me a better shooter and man did i need that.Doesnt hurt to experiment you can always take things off and put back on you wont know till you personally try it yourself .


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## Rjm08 (May 22, 2002)

As stated I tried a Vegas round without the STS on my Hoyt Maxxis 35 today. First though, I added some speed nocks to the string and gained 2 or 3 fps. Cool. So off to the range and after a shaky, too much coffee induced first half I settled down and shot the best half I've ever shot, regardless of what bow I have used in the past. I found that my bow without the STS was every bit as forgiving and accurate as ever. And I never had an issue with the string slapping my arm either. 
So for me right now, the STS stays off until hunting season of course.


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## KsKid (Dec 16, 2005)

KurtVL said:


> What about accuracy did you shoot any groups when you ran your experiment


I did not do any shooting for accuracy but I did shoot a few through paper with and without and the paper showed no difference.


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## Rjm08 (May 22, 2002)

Remember, paper tuning only shows you what happens in a moment of time. To get the best results, you should shoot through paper at increasing distances so you get a snapshot of what your arrow is doing downrange. I have also noticed that there is little correlation between how the paper is torn and actual accuracy.


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## BlacktailBryan (Aug 12, 2010)

I took my suppressor of once and shot without it, and my bow sounded like an out of tune bass guitar without it.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

jim p said:


> I have been trying to get a bow to bareshaft tune for about 3 months. The bare shaft would hit about 2 feet above the fletched arrow when shooting at 20 yards. I decide to take the string stop off and see what would happen. The first shot the bare shaft was about 1.5 feet above the fletched arrow. I then lowered my rest and the bare shaft will not hit dead level with the fletched arrow. So a string stop may affect how your bow tunes. My string stop was about 6" below the arrow nock point.
> 
> I will now be taking the string stops off all of my bows just to see if I can get them to tune better.


I need to follow up on this post. Today I decided that my nock fit was too tight. I took a nail file and opened up the nock so that they slid on and off the string much easier. I was shooting this morning and was doing pretty good so just for kicks I decided to put the bare shaft down range just to see how it would shoot. Instead of the bare shaft hitting 2 feet high it hit 2" high and dead in line left and right. This was with the string stop on the bow. So the string stop will affect the arrow flight but not as much if your nocks are fitted to the string correctly.


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## meanv2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Ditto!! I will never shoot a bow again without one! 

Dan




[email protected] said:


> All anyone has to do is either take your string stop off or turn it if your's is a dog leg style and shoot it, and with all my bows it only takes one shot without them before they go back on., and yes they do keep the string away from your arm if your wearing a big coat, which is mandatory around these parts. Also i think they help to give the arrow a clean break from the string, dont care if they add speed or take away speed from the arrow. Mounted in the center might be better as far as killing vibes but i like mine close to my arm, dont even have to wear a sleeve compresser if i choose not to, but usally do anyway because of the ackward positions you have up in a tree.Nobody wiil talk me out of my string stops.:wink:


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## slicer (Dec 18, 2008)

nice post. I'll have to check my stuff. I always assumed a string stop reduced any sideways slacky nock motion as the arrow leaves the string. I also assumed a string stop helped make BH more of a non-issue. Because you could potentially have a 6 and 7 inch brace height bow. In all reallity both bows might be releasing that arrow 4 inches away from the riser, depending on axle to axle, poundage, nock fit, tension on the string, arrow weight, etc, etc, etc. Always thought it just made this dynamic moment more tidy. Remember that brace height is a static reference at rest...they don't give us dynamic brace height specs.


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## 57Loader (Nov 27, 2008)

So after reading this thread I thought I would try shooting my bowmadness XL w/o the string stop. The string hit my arm right next to my watch band. Then I put my string stop back on and checked for signs of blood.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

57Loader said:


> So after reading this thread I thought I would try shooting my bowmadness XL w/o the string stop. The string hit my arm right next to my watch band. Then I put my string stop back on and checked for signs of blood.


Thanks for the laugh. Did the impact of the arrow change when you removed the string stop? Also were your nock sliding freely onto the string or do they make a loud click when you put the arrow on the string? A loose fitting nock will not pull the string forward as much as a tight nock. See I am trying to get you to try again to see how much blood you can lose with the next shot.  You haven't lived until you let the string get you about 4 times in one day. The welt gets bigger each shot and it makes it even easier to hit it the next shot. After the 4th whack the welt is about the size of a golf ball and there is no way to shoot without hitting it.


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## 57Loader (Nov 27, 2008)

jim p said:


> Thanks for the laugh. Did the impact of the arrow change when you removed the string stop? Also were your nock sliding freely onto the string or do they make a loud click when you put the arrow on the string? A loose fitting nock will not pull the string forward as much as a tight nock. See I am trying to get you to try again to see how much blood you can lose with the next shot.  You haven't lived until you let the string get you about 4 times in one day. The welt gets bigger each shot and it makes it even easier to hit it the next shot. After the 4th whack the welt is about the size of a golf ball and there is no way to shoot without hitting it.


I don't know if the POI changed I was only 3 feet away in my shop. When I get the stitches out I'll shoot farther for you and tell you what happends.


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